# Do You Still Own The Pumilio You Bought From Imports ?



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

After getting some input on the 'Are Darts Better off in the Wild or in Viv?' thread, I started to wonder exactly what has happened to all of the WC pumilio that have come in the last few years. Are the adults still alive? Are they breeding? Are the froglets living? Are they reaching adulthood? I can understand the issues with pum froglets but to me adult pums are VERY tough little frogs. No more frail than any other frog I have worked with. So I want to do a poll to get a feel for what is going on. And so people do not have to post specifically their 'unlucky' experiences. Or can post their fortunes. I am sure I could do some digging to come up with exact import numbers but I can take a wild guess and say that number is in the many thousands. Many thousands. If you don't want to add comments, please at least take the poll. Any info is appreciated.
Where have all the pumilio gone ......part two.


Rich


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Not sure mine really count in this survey. I got a trio of the tara imis from the last SNDF shipment in December so I've had them just barely a month. The male started calling right away. I saw my first egg a little over a week ago which ended up not fertile. I noticed a pair of eggs yesterday. We'll see how those turn out in a week.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Hi Gary,
Rich is just trying to get a feel for how well the pumilio imports were doing. You could list the escudo offspring you got from me  Although I covered it in the poll.
I don`t know how many times I should vote to make this a real #`s poll. For instance, since pairs of wc frogs only produce 2 on avg. throughout there whole lifetime that make it up to breeding stage to then produce 2 more etc over their whole life, and so on and so on. I know there are all sorts of scenerios for this but truthfully if this producing 2 thing isnt held and they all produce 4 that live you get an exponential doubling rate and eventual crash, which may happen in real life under optimal conditions for said frog. Anywho, My 6 Escudos have produced between 20 and 30 offspring w/ 24? making it(I have only heard of 1 death after sale and have lost about 5 myself). These animals may not breed but if they all do we`ll be closer to wc production #`s just because my pair produced 10 pair that bred While 10 other pair didn`t produce or died. 
I also have abuot 17-20 pair from the imports( 17 of which have already over doubled their #`s in captivity, so do I vote 20 times? (17 breeding and produced offspring up to adulthood and 3 not producing or nothing to adulthood)


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

But those aren't imports - those are Captive Born!!  

Hey Rich - you need an option that says... some have done great and bred, some have done great and not bred, and some have gone home to that bromeliad in the sky.

So... all of the above might cover it. 

s :?


frogfarm said:


> Rich is just trying to get a feel for how well the pumilio imports were doing. You could list the escudo offspring you got from me


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There should also be a category for people who got offspring from people breeding the imports that are now breeding to get a better feel for how far this has really gone. 
This is really good considering people will see how quickly things change and how impotant it is to get these things established and logged in to manage what we have when we have it. 
I`ve already gone thru a few of these. People get , lax for lack of a better term, by seeing a vendor posting the same last pumilio, or other import, for months. they don`t want to get into them because they think they`ll be imported forever and they make their decisions on market analysis. No one wants it till it`s not available anymore. 
If Panama closes what do we have?
How many are breeding even the campana auratus? If everything is shut down we`ll be scrambling to locate the last of the fr imports from them too.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

It was hard for me to know how to vote. Of 6 pumilio I bought as imports in 1999, only one is still alive but is breeding with another wc animal from those same imports that I acquired later. And I think I voted wrong. I voted that they are breeding, but now I see I should have said they have raised froglets to adulthood.

But I can't help but add that registering your frogs in ASN captures all of this data so not only can we look at fecundity and survival rates, but we can see exactly which animals are related to which. With the new FrogTracks stats that Robb has developed, that database also tracks some of these metrics.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> This is really good considering people will see how quickly things change and how impotant it is to get these things established and logged in to manage what we have when we have it.


I plug it whenever I can Brent. This is just a quick poll to get a general idea. the asn registration and frogtracks will efinately get into stats for different morphs etc. but people who bought frogs that died before registration wouldn`t be included in frogtracks or asn.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Of the seven I purchased
2 were sold, one is known to be doing well
1 was unhealthy when it came in, and did eventually pass
1 passed because of husbandry issues
2 passed for unknown reasons - one day healthy, next day dead
1 is thriving, but alas, no mate
1 offspring passed, I think calcium deficiently


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> It was hard for me to know how to vote. Of 6 pumilio I bought as imports in 1999, only one is still alive but is breeding with another wc animal from those same imports that I acquired later. And I think I voted wrong. I voted that they are breeding, but now I see I should have said they have raised froglets to adulthood.
> 
> But I can't help but add that registering your frogs in ASN captures all of this data so not only can we look at fecundity and survival rates, but we can see exactly which animals are related to which. With the new FrogTracks stats that Robb has developed, that database also tracks some of these metrics.


Brent , if you look at the poll it includes the recent shipments of 2004 to present. I did it this way because we are now doing things like , not shipping them in by the 100s in a tiny plastic bag, proper quarantine, treating for nasties, and the like. Much of which was not done in 1999. Much of which is now 'SOP'. And as Aaron stated, I am running this poll to get a feel for the deathrate and the success in breeding. 
Yes, please register your frogs.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

frogfarm said:


> There should also be a category for people who got offspring from people breeding the imports that are now breeding to get a better feel for how far this has really gone.
> This is really good considering people will see how quickly things change and how impotant it is to get these things established and logged in to manage what we have when we have it.


I agree Aaron. But for right now I think we need to go to 'ground zero' and see how many actual pums are making it once they reach our shores. I hope everybody takes the poll and we get an accurate count. Very early in the poll but right now it seems that almost everyone has at least as many if not more than came in........


Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Did a search but could not come up with a way to edit the poll. Any help is appreciated.
I'd like to add the options;

yes, but less than I bought due to death/s
and,

yes, but less than 1/2 of what I bought due to deaths

Thanks,
Rich


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> > This is really good considering people will see how quickly things change and how impotant it is to get these things established and logged in to manage what we have when we have it.
> 
> 
> I plug it whenever I can Brent. This is just a quick poll to get a general idea. the asn registration and frogtracks will efinately get into stats for different morphs etc. but people who bought frogs that died before registration wouldn`t be included in frogtracks or asn.


Actually, you can register dead frogs in ASN and I've actually done that for this very reason. We haven't really pushed that aspect of the deal because it is enough work just getting your live stuff in the system.

My bad Rich. So there is a vote there for alive and breeding that is bogus. I never claimed I could read.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I edited your poll. Let me know if the changes didnt reflect what you were asking.

of the 'recent' imports:

I have lost only one male that was added to my group of yellows [RB/G]
1.1 yellow [RB/G], eggs/tads, occ SLS froglet.
1.1 orange [Cristo], breeding. One froglet, sold.
0.0.3 adult red [RB/G], no calling
1.0.2 ?Uyama, nothing.
0.0.3 adult ?Uyama, eggs, infetile ?if male is present.
0.0.3 yellow [RB/G] Suspect one male. No eggs.
1.1 Yellow-belly/[Cayo de Aqua], many eggs/tads, no froglets
1.1 Yellow-belly,[Cayo de Aqua] many eggs/tads, occ SLS froglets
1.0.1 Adult red [Cristo], nothing.
1.0 yellow [RB/G] extra male

I may be missing a tank or 2 by memory, but I am 'even' having lost one add in, and made one.

It has been a challenge for me to 'find' what they want to succeed I'm afraid.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks Shawn. Perfect.

Rich


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

Of all the imports I bought , I think I only lost 3 of them . I traded or sold a few extras also . 

What I still have :

Cristobal's , 1.2.0 , 1 froglet that died 1 still in the tank .
Rio-Cristo's , yellow , 1.1.0 - 1.1.0, lost 1 adult female - 1 froglet w/ sls .
Rio-Cristo's , orange , 1.1.0 , breeding no froglets yet . 
Escudo's , 1.1.0 - 1.1.0 - 2.0.0 , lost 2 adult males , about 14 froglets almost 50 % have made it to be traded or sold . They stopped laying recently .
Solarte , 1.1.0 , 2 froglets both doing good . still breeding .
Cauchero , 1.2.0 , 2 froglets both died. 
Isla Popa , 1.1.0 - 1.0.1 1 pair breeding w / tads in the tank .
Cayo de Aqua's , 1.1.0 - 1.1.0 - 1.0.1 breeding w / tads in 2 tanks .
Isla Colon , 1.1.0 - 1.0.1 , 1 pair breeding trying to get it right . 
Rio-Guarumo , 1.0.3 , nothing yet .


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Couldn't vote for lack of option.

Stock breeding/producing, young not fully mature.

As for the Escudos I don't think anyone (in the US) has yet bred (raised froglets from) successive offspring, but have heard of some that are just recently in the works of laying/depositing.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

stchupa said:


> Couldn't vote for lack of option.
> 
> Stock breeding/producing, young not fully mature.
> 
> As for the Escudos I don't think anyone (in the US) has yet bred (raised froglets from) successive offspring, but have heard of some that are just recently in the works of laying/depositing.


Are you saying you are the one person in the U.S. who actually got sub-adult WCs ? :shock: 
F2s were not in the poll as I am not concerned that far down the line yet. More so with the WCs that came in and their breeding.

Rich


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> Are you saying you are the one person in the U.S. who actually got sub-adult WCs ? :shock:
> F2s were not in the poll as I am not concerned that far down the line yet. More so with the WCs that came in and their breeding.
> 
> Rich


My mistake.



frogfarm said:


> If everything is shut down we`ll be scrambling to locate the last of the fr imports from them too.


Sadly, it sounds like the motivation in need. :?:


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

stchupa said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying you are the one person in the U.S. who actually got sub-adult WCs ? :shock:
> ...


No problem.

One of the reasons I started this thread is due to the possible fact that Panama may be once again closed for awhile. I'd like to get an idea of the successes and maybe the hobby can take clues from them. If the 'not so fortunates' outway the 'fortunates' something will need to be done to sustain the populations here.

Rich


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I replied to the poll - but since you can only vote once - it is not an accurate representation. Here is a list (the best of what I can recall) of my WC frogs:

2004 Man Creek - 2 pairs
--Pair 1 - froglets (currently growing them up)
--Pair 2 - good eggs - not sure about transportation

2006 Yellow Belly - 3 pairs
--Pair 1 - froglets raised to adulthood
--Pair 2 - froglet, but did not reach adulthood
--Pair 3 (now in the hands of another DBer) - eggs
Individuals - 1.0 sold, 1.0 died while in quarantine

2006 xRioCristo - 4 pairs/groups
--Pair 1 - froglets with SLS
--Pair 2 - froglets with SLS
--1.2 - sold to another frogger - eggs
--1.1 - sold to another frogger - tads - but no transport
Individuals - 0.1 - looking for a mate

2006 Escudo - 2 pairs
--Pair 1 - froglets (currently growing them up)
--Pair 2 - tad transport - but no froglets noticed yet

2007 Solarte - 2 pairs
--Pair 1 - tadpoles - unsure on transport
--Pair 2 - tadpoles - unsure on transport
Individuals - 0.2 sold to other froggers

2007 Isla Popa North - 2 pairs
--Pair 1 - froglets (currently growing them up)
--Pair 2 - tad transport
-Prob 1.1 sold to another frogger

I still have a lot of issues to work out with Pumilio froglet rearing. I am finding way too many froglets that are experiencing seizures, others that are hitting a "brick wall" at 4 months or so - but that is another thread.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

pigface said:


> Isla Colon , 1.1.0 - 1.0.1 , 1 pair breeding trying to get it right .


Sorry, not to derail here, but I don't remember these being brought in with any of the imports... did I miss something?

As for mine, 
1.2 Escudos no losses, 8 froglets (4 raised to adulthood w/ no problems that I have heard and 4 current froglets, one recently died for an unknown reason).


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Anyway you could put up a "I did not get any imports" I would like to see the poll, but don't want to screw with the results.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

click view results under the submit icon


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

stchupa said:


> click view results under the submit icon


/Whap self in head!

Thanks


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

It would be interesting to see how many were imported, how many survived the trip and how many were sold and how many may have died at importers or how many importers still have.

Do we want these frogs to be imported even to a reputable importer if there is a significant amount of DOAs? What is significant?

I highly doubt that any importer would list this information, but I feel that if they want to sell frogs to a community like many on Dendroboard it is their obligation to report to the community information like this. That way we can help. I would pay more for a frog if I knew it was well taken care of and a high survivability rate from an importer.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

As far as the original Man Creeks and Chiriqui Rivers most people have had success with these and I have produced f2's. The biggest threat to these these frogs in the hobby is the fickleness of the hobby in that everyone wants the latest/newest frogs. If imports from Panama cease that may change.

The 05-06 Rio Branco, Christobal, Uyama frogs I believe will be gone within 5-10 years from the hobby. There may be a few people still with them but they will be like blue jeans, few and far between. There are several reasons I see: there were not many males in the original imports. I know of many breeders with only females or very few males. Those who have bred them have done so with limited success. I have only produced a handful of offspring and I have heard the same from others. There was also a lot of bad publicity around these frogs because they did not come with exact collection locations, so many people shy away from these which I think is a shame because they are very cool frogs.

Escudos: I think these will become established because of the success rates people have had. As long as the price stays high they will continue to be sought after as they well should be. The people who have these will tell you they are one of their favorite of the pumilio.

Cayo de Agua, Cayo Nancy, Isla Popa: I think it is too early to tell.

Just my opinions, Robb


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> As far as the original Man Creeks and Chiriqui Rivers most people have had success with these and I have produced f2's. The biggest threat to these these frogs in the hobby is the fickleness of the hobby in that everyone wants the latest/newest frogs. If imports from Panama cease that may change.
> 
> The 05-06 Rio Branco, Christobal, Uyama frogs I believe will be gone within 5-10 years from the hobby. There may be a few people still with them but they will be like blue jeans, few and far between. There are several reasons I see: there were not many males in the original imports. I know of many breeders with only females or very few males. Those who have bred them have done so with limited success. I have only produced a handful of offspring and I have heard the same from others. There was also a lot of bad publicity around these frogs because they did not come with exact collection locations, so many people shy away from these which I think is a shame because they are very cool frogs.


But in 5-10 years Robb there may be (has been already) more shipments with true local data. The original 'man creeks' and 'chiriqui' have zero site data also. Note the number of times those pums' names and locals changed.

The jumble of WC uyama/cristo/branco/others I have heard, is absolutely nothing better than best guesses and will never be more than that. A quick case in point is the labeling of a frog 'cristo-branco' or 'rio-cristo' basically stating a new impossible morph due to the fact that San Cristobal Island Pumilio are island morphs and Rio Branco pumilio are mainland morphs. The two will never meet in the wild.

One man's bad publicity due to zero cite data is another man's quest for making sure the importance and relevance for site data is known and asked for.
I know it is absolutely OK to appreciate and love working with a best guess, mutt or hybrid or unknown species ,unknown morph, or unknown subspecies. And what people do with that appreciation is totally up to them.
But this is getting off track of my poll's intention.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

In reference to the people who have a decent number of pumilio and are not sure how to vote. Go with the vote that most describes your over-all situation. And if you feel like going into details , as some have , all info is great.
Rich


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> ...But this is getting off track of my poll's intention.


The intent of the poll as I understand it is to get an idea of whether or not the recent import of pumilio 2004-2007 will be around in 5-10 years based on how many people still had and whether or not these were breeding etc. I gave my opinion on why certain morphs will or will not be around. If that is not the point of the poll than I'm not sure what the intent is.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Rich Frye said:


> The jumble of WC uyama/cristo/branco/others I have heard, is absolutely nothing better than best guesses and will never be more than that. A quick case in point is the labeling of a frog 'cristo-branco' or 'rio-cristo' basically stating a new impossible morph due to the fact that San Cristobal Island Pumilio are island morphs and Rio Branco pumilio are mainland morphs. The two will never meet in the wild.
> 
> One man's bad publicity due to zero cite data is another man's quest for making sure the importance and relevance for site data is known and asked for.
> I know it is absolutely OK to appreciate and love working with a best guess, mutt or hybrid or unknown species ,unknown morph, or unknown subspecies. And what people do with that appreciation is totally up to them.
> But this is getting off track of my poll's intention.


Robb - I think Rich was referring to the jumbling of the rio/cristo/uyama '06 frogs - what to call them, and then what their importance is in the hobby - as the source of the side track.

And while I don't wish to side-track it any more - it is an interesting point. I have been particularly interested in what to call these frogs. A phenotypic descriptor would be tough due to the variation in the import. I can also see your point Rich about calling them xRioCristo as a confusing thing - but in the confusion - I think it may be the best way to name them.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I think I would add to that description with the import year '06, '07 ect.

otherwise we call them "Panama red 06", "Panama yellow 06" ect.

S


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> I think I would add to that description with the import year '06, '07 ect.
> 
> otherwise we call them "Panama red 06", "Panama yellow 06" ect.
> 
> S


What happens then when I take my (hypothetical) 04 Chiriqui and my 06 Chiriqui together and have babies? I don't thing the year is a valid descriptor for the mish-mash imports that came in sans site data, since the same frogs came in for several years.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > ...But this is getting off track of my poll's intention.
> ...


Yes, ish. 
I gave no time limit (5-10 years?) on breeding and such , just an over all view. You gave your opinion and I gave mine and it got off track. Off track being the importance of 'mutts' and such. You expounded on and beyond the initial intent , which is fine. Breeding and captive success noted. I hope.
And yes Oz, I wanted to stay away from the whole 'what's what' stuff that has been beaten , beaten , done. I think the hobby is doing a decent job with what we have to work with.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Catfur said:


> sports_doc said:
> 
> 
> > I think I would add to that description with the import year '06, '07 ect.
> ...


Too much of an assumption.....

Above.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> Catfur said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="sports_doc":3fcehtil]I think I would add to that description with the import year '06, '07 ect.
> ...


Too much of an assumption.....

Above.[/quote:3fcehtil]

I doubt there is anything to gain by splitting up already arbitrarily assigned populations of frogs by when the earth passes some arbitrary point on it's orbit. If we did that there would be ridiculousness like Man Creek 04, Man Creek 05, Man Creek 06, Man Creek 07... 
Can the hobby possibly sustain 4+ arbitrary divisions of otherwise indistinguishable frogs? Even if we could (HA! not this century) is there any real point? What about those frogs that came in late in the year, do the ones sold before Hogmanay get tossed into the '0X pile and the ones that don't ship until a week or so later go in the '0X+1 pile?

I say they should be divided up by best guess morph (keeping them distinguished from frogs with collection info), Chiriqui, Basti, Man Creek, Yellowbelly, and You-Figure-It-Out-Branco-Christobal-Uyama. Anything else is arbitrary and self defeating.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Catfur said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Catfur said:
> ...


I doubt there is anything to gain by splitting up already arbitrarily assigned populations of frogs .........

I say they should be divided up by best guess morph (keeping them distinguished from frogs with collection info), Chiriqui, Basti, Man Creek, Yellowbelly, and You-Figure-It-Out-Branco-Christobal-Uyama. Anything else is arbitrary and self defeating.[/quote:2hb6i2ir]


Gain(ed) , no.
They have always been divided up by 'best guesses' . Assumptions. Period. Unless otherwise available.
Again , off track.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Your right, my opinions about the subject of this thread are absolutely off track and have nothing to do with this thread. My apologies.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> Your right, my opinions about the subject of this thread are absolutely off track and have nothing to do with this thread. My apologies.


Sorry that you think that Robb. 
Again, I was refering to the 'mutt' aspect and the undoubted spin off that can/will come of it. 
I have no problem discussing the value of 'best guesses' in the hobby as long as it does not take away from the original intent.
I always value your thoughts and usually agree with them.
Post away . Please.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

At some arbitrary point of the earth`s passing around the sun, possibly after panama closes, we may find that at other arbitrary points of passing the collecting might have moved onto another segment population across a certain river to where we can ascertain that during 06 they collected mainland pops of this green frog and during 07 they started collecting from the island population of said green pumilio. Since we don`t know how it will play out we should keep all the info we can. Say during 07 they got 2 collections from sheppard island and they came in w/ or instead of the chiriquis. It`s still best guess but may have use towards better sorting down the road. Such as me finding an almirante mate for my female. I`d only want one imported in mid to late 07 so as to weed out erroniously labeled man creeks since no collecting was done till 07 from around the village of almirante.
sorry, don`t want to sidetrack anymore
As for the poll, I`ve heard of a lot more dying than success, although most of those stories were from shows and people not on db. I do have a question the people raising them to adulthood though. I haven`t seen 15 different postings or ads selling very many of these pumilio. At best I`d say a dozen success` in the mfav section and ads. Are people holding their offspring back to build up breeding stock? Is it that people are more apt to post their success` and not their failure?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I agree Aaron.
I should note that when I said "gain(ed), no," I was simply agreeing with the semantics and wording Clayton used. Not necessarily the context to what I think about the whole 'best guess' situation .I think there is nothing arbirtary about knowing what frogs came in from so-and-so on an exact date. And saying that "the same frogs came in for several years" is not only too much of an assumption, it is just not true . Now what we do with the info is what matters.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

frogfarm said:


> As for the poll, I`ve heard of a lot more dying than success, although most of those stories were from shows and people not on db. I do have a question the people raising them to adulthood though. I haven`t seen 15 different postings or ads selling very many of these pumilio. At best I`d say a dozen success` in the mfav section and ads. Are people holding their offspring back to build up breeding stock? Is it that people are more apt to post their success` and not their failure?


I was wondering the exact same thing Aaron. Zero 'no, did not survive's, vast majority 'yes, to adulthood'?
To me it may be that even though this is an anonymous poll we are not exactly getting a good idea from it what has been going on in the hobby for the last several years.
How many F2 pums from the imports are listed for sale? How often? I very much doubt this is due to holdback. I'd like to think and hope so but reality slaps me back to knowing it aint so.

Rich


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