# My frog is dying! Help!



## lookitsadam (Jul 1, 2013)

Earlier tody while turning out all the lights on my tanks I found my male basti laying on his back on a brom leaf not moving. He would sometimes open and close his mouth, that's it.

A little background info - he has always been a skinny frog, but recently (past month or so) has started to get even skinnier. I moved him in to a separate tank so I could watch him closer and hopefully put some weight back on.

When I found him on the leaf today I carefully moved him in to a cup with a paper towel. I don't think he'll make it through the night 

Any tips on how to save him or what you think may be wrong with him?

imgur: the simple image sharer


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm really sorry for you  it doesn't look like he is going to make it  however, if he does have a little strength by the morning I would try to feed him some dusted down flies and move him to a small area without much light. Though there's really not much you can do in this situation. It's rough but it happens, feel better man.


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## Jjimenez081122 (Feb 22, 2014)

Hes done bud. Id maybe put him in some diluted vitamin /water solution and dip him a fee seconds and hopefully that might spring him back up enough to move. But he looks minutes from dying😞


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I do not think there is much to do. Check other frogs, please make a fecal exam and contact a veterinarian who is an expert in amphibians and reptiles.


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## lookitsadam (Jul 1, 2013)

Well, he's gone =[

I would feed him every other day and wach him eat, but no matter what he just wouldn't put weight back on.

Anybody have ANY idea on what possibly killed him?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't think it's possible to know, for sure, without a necropsy. Did they have fecal exams?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

lookitsadam said:


> Well, he's gone =[
> 
> I would feed him every other day and wach him eat, but no matter what he just wouldn't put weight back on.
> 
> Anybody have ANY idea on what possibly killed him?


I'm sorry for your loss and, I empathize with you. I don't think there is one among us who has yet to deal with loss of a creature in their care. While true no one will know for sure until a necropsy is done, skinny and not able to put on weight, despite observed feedings, screams intestinal parasites, among other things. For the sake of your remaining frogs, whether or not you feel they look sick, have a fecal exam done on them along with the necropsy on the dead frog *(do not put it in freezer, use the fridge!!)* (thanks ED and ZookeeperDoug! i would have said freeze it prior to our thread a while back)

Meanwhile, while hindsight is always 20/20, this thread may help a fellow frogger to understand the importance of quarantine WITH fecal exams upon acquiring any new animal. I'm not saying you didn't do it. I am saying it MUST be done!

EDIT

For everyone's future reference, here is a link to an excellent thread (originally posted by a ED and endorsed by a Medical Doctor) on Quarantine http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/141506-quarantine-suggestions-discussion.html


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

I second the intestinal parasites. Speaking from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. We had a female varadero who was in the same situation. During the last 6 months we had noticed she was fluctuating in weight. One day she would look good, than for weeks she would look malnurished. Than she became lethargic. and after finding a vet locally to help us we had fecals ran and bingo. Intestinal parasite that basically whithered her away to nothing. We ended up beating the parasite, but in the process I think it was just to stressful and she stopped eating and within a few days parished on us. This was literally last thursday that she died. Sorry for your loss, but please do get any other frog you have fecaled now to prevent any future losses. I am still in the process of having a few remaining frogs tested! the cost adds up quick, but replacing a frog costs more usually, replacing a collection? I dont want to to go there.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

It is, to some, surprisingly easy to cross contaminate to other enclosures/animals. A microscopic fleck of contaminated feces under a fingernail, with improper hand washing or worse yet, no hand washing at all, can quickly spread pathogens through an entire collection. You don't even need, necessarily, a careless mistake on the part of the keeper. Mites, fruit flies, various intentional and unintentional microfauna, all have the potential to be vectors of disease. The leaf full of springtails that you grab from one enclosure to seed another. A plant clipping without proper disinfecting. Even a rock you decide would look better in another tank needs to be cleaned first.

Some of the more experienced keepers may find one or more of these possibilities as unlikely to cause harm. With careful quarantine procedure, proper husbandry practice, and periodic screenings for pathogens, I would agree that some flexibility will be present. Are you SURE you've been careful enough?


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

Another question is, were these wild caught frogs? Who knows what kind of baddies those come into the country with and a lot of people may say they have treated and fecaled their frogs prior to selling them to another person, but would you stake your collection on someones word? No offense to anyone.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

No one reasonable would consider that comment offensive. Even if I have good reason to believe the person I buy from, I require a minimum of 1 clean fecal before an animal leaves quarantine. Even then I try my best to avoid cross contamination. Forget about someone's word. What about human error? Hopefully ED sees this and can correct me if I am wrong. I don't believe ED would be offended if I were to buy animals from him and mention that I was going to quarantine and fecal the animals before moving them into my established collection. I suggest: if someone is adamant that their animals are clean, or have been screened for parasites, and don't require a follow up, run fast and far from that deal!




Nismo95 said:


> Another question is, were these wild caught frogs? Who knows what kind of baddies those come into the country with and a lot of people may say they have treated and fecaled their frogs prior to selling them to another person, but would you stake your collection on someones word? No offense to anyone.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I seem to have forgotten about derailing a thread. My apologies lookitsadam! I try to find the positive in any given situation. The biggest positive I can see is that you have probably saved a frog or two by starting this thread. Someone, somewhere will benefit from it!


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## lookitsadam (Jul 1, 2013)

Don't apologize! I've certainly been learning a lot through this whole experience. 

Is there a way to do fecal tests yourself or do you have to have a vet do them? I'm not sure of any vets in this area that would do a test like that.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

lookitsadam said:


> Don't apologize! I've certainly been learning a lot through this whole experience.
> 
> Is there a way to do fecal tests yourself or do you have to have a vet do them? I'm not sure of any vets in this area that would do a test like that.


A fecal exam is a standard procedure that all veterinary offices will do. They do not even need to be frog specialists. To do a basic fecal exam you need a decent microscope, a test tube or 2, slides, and some feces. This will allow you to do a 'float' and a 'smear' which are rather straightforward. The problem with doing them yourself is that the results obtained by non-professionals aren't conclusive. If you found something, you can know that something is present but, in the absence of finding something you wouldn't be able to call it a negative study with certainty. Beyond that, once you find something you're then challenged with identification among millions of possibilities. Once something is found, a professional performing the exam would begin any number of additional studies. While fun to do, for the purposes we need a fecal exam it is best left to a pro.

EDIT: What you're looking for is evidence of infection that are expelled with defecation. That can be spores, body segments, whole organisms, blood, excessive mucous, etc....

EDIT 2: Here is a link for excellent advice on collecting feces for a study http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/36848-collecting-sending-fecals-examination.html


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I live in Maryland and vets in this state have to actually examine the animal by state law even to do a fecal...besides being a pain in the butt...what alternatives are available to me???


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Judy S said:


> I live in Maryland and vets in this state have to actually examine the animal by state law even to do a fecal...besides being a pain in the butt...what alternatives are available to me???


I've used a local universities biology department before. The professor was happy to provide his students with the opportunity to study something outside the standard curriculum. He set it up as a 'quiz' for his micro students to see if they came up with the same results he did. Of course, that leaves treatment as a potential problem. Many meds are available on the open market, however. At the time I had several on hand.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

interesting idea...from what I've read, Panacur seems to be what people generally use...so somehow I have to extrapolate the treatment dose...oh mercy....


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Judy S said:


> interesting idea...from what I've read, Panacur seems to be what people generally use...so somehow I have to extrapolate the treatment dose...oh mercy....


That should be left to someone who is qualified, and should (in my non medical opinion) only be given when a confirmed organism is present and sensitive to the drug. Panacur will treat most roundworms, hookworms, and a couple tapeworm sp.. Metronidazole is another popular drug used for Amoebiasis, Protozoa, several anaerobic bacterial infections, among other things. It is also VERY important to understand the parasitic load of an infection. If there is a large load of parasites and they're killed in one treatment you can cause secondary poisoning via decomposing biomass. Especially with organ specific organisms like liver flukes, heart worms, etc.. There is a lot to consider when medicating animals. There is a reason it takes so long to become a doctor!

EDIT: A University Biology department is an excellent resource for free lab work if you trust and have a good relationship with a professor or two. A good "IN" is to donate a freshly deceased specimen or two for their collections. When I was doing field research I would also collect any fresh roadkill (be careful with this one as you must still follow laws as if they were living specimens). You do NOT want to get caught with an endangered or CITES animals. Even if it's obvious they were run over and old.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> if I am wrong. I don't believe ED would be offended if I were to buy animals from him and mention that I was going to quarantine and fecal the!


I would have no problems with this, too often people forget that a negative fecal does not mean that there are no parasites or problems with the frog. So even if I've always had clear fecals, you could end up with something on a test due to the stress of transfer causing an uptake in the parasite infection. As we all know, a totally bug tight enclosure is very difficult and sterilizing many of the furnishings is very difficult so testing is the best way to figure out if there are problems. Now this doesn't mean that treatment is always required. That is a decision to be made in consultation with your vet as it is possible to cause more harm by attempting to treat an animal than it is to monitor it. Healthy frogs can manage a number of parasite infections if they are kept in good condition. Pulling the frogs and treating them can cause sufficient stress that the immune system become less competent allowing a further proliferation of a parasite or parasites. It is not unheard of for a frog to have issues with a second or even a third parasite during treatment for the first parasite. If the frog is showing signs of disease such as losing weight, then treatment should be considered immediately but keep in mind that it may not be the first detected parasite causing the issue and some parasites are often diagnosed based on symptoms if they are not present in the fecal. Some coccidian infections can follow this path. 



aspidites73 said:


> a ED and endorsed by a Medical Doctor)


Okay capitalizing both the letters of my name and the reference that there may be more than one of me on the board is creeping me out.... [/quote] 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> interesting idea...from what I've read, Panacur seems to be what people generally use...so somehow I have to extrapolate the treatment dose...oh mercy....


Judy,

Panacura became the frequent choice for worming because it was considered to be very safe. Over time this has changed as it became clear that it did have significant negative side effects if overdosed. Specifically it can cause aplastic anemia (bone marrow suppression) that can kill the organism if they do not receive a bone transplant. This has been documented in multiple taxa now so it is no longer considered to be as safe as it once was. As a consequence, the dosage has to be targeted to the organism for safety which means tubing the frog is far more desirable than dusting the flies. Dusting flies can lead to over or underdosing each of which has it's drawbacks. 
If you can get the proper dosage, ivermectin is a better choice as it can be administered by a single drop on the back of the frog and it shows good penetration of all of the tissues. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

> okay capitalizing both the letters of my name and the reference that there may be more than one of me on the board is creeping me out....


lmao :d


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Apologies, Ed! I was merely trying to highlight not differentiate. It was either that or saying your name 3 times while in front of my bathroom mirror. I figured the latter had more of a freak out value! Especially if it worked! 



Ed said:


> Okay capitalizing both the letters of my name and the reference that there may be more than one of me on the board is creeping me out....


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