# Darkland Lineage



## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

I have been speaking to a few people about these frogs and have gotten very interested in the lineage of Darklands (not to be confused with recent imports of Caucheros) I was hoping some of the older froggers might be able to comment or help me in a direction to trace the different lineages back to the source.

Thanks


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Aside from Rich's line, not a lot is known. Most if not all came in as "blues" and the name Darkland was tagged onto them later. Were the original "blues" Darklands, Caucheros, or something else? Probably never know but there are some that think that Darklands are the same thing as Caucheros, some that think they are completely different, and some that have no idea. I can tell you that as far as I know Rich has the only line of site data Darklands, but there may be some that I don't know about.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

So did Tuss's line just come in as Blues?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Not sure... not sure where he got his from, but I know it's not from Rich. I want to say maybe from Thomas, but don't know for sure.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes Tuss` line just came in as blues. So did thomas v`s. About 8-10 years ago a shipment of blues came in and they were small, much smaller than any of the cauchero I saw. I don`t think there is any way to track most of these shipments down unless someone contacts bill and chuck from cb imports to try and trace what came from where.
I know people say there isn`t a size difference but these things were minute compared to all the cauchero I saw come in.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

So that's interesting... if the blues that came in years ago were that small and Tuss's and Thomas's lines descend from those shipments, then they "should" be that small too. I know Rich said that his site data Darklands were much smaller than Tuss's Darklands so they must be Caucheros and not Darklands, but this logic kind of goes against that in a way. 
Aaron, you're the only person that I know that has or has had Rich's line, Tuss's line, and the new Caucheros... do you see any differences between each one or are they similar?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

From talking to Tuss and from measurements taken by Tuss and myself , not counting those that have both mine and Tuss' frogs, both the new 'cauchero' and what was labeled 'blues' then 'darklands' are consistently larger than the lines I work with. Pumilio keep growing for over two years . It is possible that the ones that came in 8-10 years ago had not been full grown adults ,or came in tiny from bad shipping stress, as the ones Tuss and I measured were full grown adults of over two years old. As with many, many of the pumilio we will most likely never know exactly where those frogs came from. Mine are Darklands.

Rich


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I don`t know that tuss` and thomas v`s were from the same shipment. They trickled in from time to time either smuggled or taken from smugglers or legally, I`ve only heard rumors and there were usually 5-20 available at a time sparsely over a # of years.
Some could`ve been dark, some cauchero, some what`s the other cerro brujo or something. There are more than 2 blue pumilio pops or should I say collection areas, as far as I know.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

There were site specific blue pumilio collected back in the early 90's. I can't give specifics but they were from roughly the same area as "Darklands". I'm not sure if there are any of these left in the hobby or not.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

So sounds like we are back to square one with Rich's being site data verified and the rest just mystery "blues". Sucks that people weren't more worried about locality data in the past, but I guess that's just part of growing as a hobby and the hobbiests becoming more aware. Too bad we'll never really have an answer on all this...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> There were site specific blue pumilio collected back in the early 90's. I can't give specifics but they were from roughly the same area as "Darklands". I'm not sure if there are any of these left in the hobby or not.


The 'darklands' , 'esperanzas' , 'cerro bruchos', and 'caucheros' (along with other names I am sure) are all from 'roughly the same area' much as a big island would have similar but not same 'morphs'. The area of the above 'morphs' is far from small and animals in different locals have different traits. Some with red, some larger, some smaller. Different and yet from roughly the same 'island' local. Much like other true island 'morphs'.

Rich


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> ... The 'darklands' , 'esperanzas' , 'cerro bruchos', and 'caucheros' (along with other names I am sure) are all from 'roughly the same area' much as a big island would have similar but not same 'morphs'. The area of the above 'morphs' is far from small and animals in different locals have different traits. Some with red, some larger, some smaller. Different and yet from roughly the same 'island' local. Much like other true island 'morphs'.
> 
> Rich


I said "roughly" only because I choose not to give out the exact site specific location, not to insinuate they are the same.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I know what you meant Robb. I just wanted to let others who may not know, know that those other 'morphs' lived right butted up against other blue frogs.

Rich


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

So far I was only aware of Two lines when this post started Tuss' and Rich's.

After the Posts I have concluded this.

Rich's is the only Site Specific darklands

Tuss's is or should be Labled ad D. Pumilio Blue b/c no one has and idea what they really are (cauchero, darklands etc)

Am I missing anything else?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

someone go get Kerokero, she sent me some info on this stuff awhile back but my pms all got erased ;(

I talked to thomas about his awhile back, as stated he just said they were labled "blues". From his pics they look considerably lighter blue then most of the "darklands" i've seen in pics or raised...also most of the cuchero pics i've seen seem lighter. Probably doesnt mean much though. Im amazed at how varible these guys are for a lil blue frog....differences are subtle but many...if you look close enough.

Mine are from tuss, and the offspring they've thrown have ranged from nice navy blues or blackish/blue to having that slight rust tinge to the back. The adults are a couple years old and are probably just under an inch long.

Well just thought i'd chime in and also ask the question that i dont think anyone else has asked yet in this thread atleast.... 

Do we breed rich's darks to tuss's? i know we are already suggesting the cucheros be kept seperate. But i think atleast a few people are currently breeding rich's to tuss's.

P.S. Its good to see ya back Rich (this is the same Dendro Dave from dartden)


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Just after reading the post I would say no. from my understanding, just as a precaution more then right or wrong. If we do not know what kind of frog Tuss's were then we could be mixing two different populations. That is what I gather from the previous posts.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> Mine are from tuss, and the offspring they've thrown have ranged from nice navy blues or blackish/blue to having that slight rust tinge to the back. The adults are a couple years old and are probably just under an inch long.
> 
> Do we breed rich's darks to tuss's? i know we are already suggesting the cucheros be kept seperate. But i think atleast a few people are currently breeding rich's to tuss's.
> 
> P.S. Its good to see ya back Rich (this is the same Dendro Dave from dartden)


Depending on how close to 'just under an inch' they are , your guys are monsters compared to mine. An inch is about 25 mm and my full grown adults are averaging about 17-19 mm. The 'caucheros' that are coming in are larger also than my frogs so a quick guess (and that is all it is) says that Tuss's may be 'caucheros'. With the obvious, consistent difference in size I would have to guess that these frogs at least come from different collection sites. I would not breed these together , I believe there are those that are.
Thanks Dave, good to be back.

Rich


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Rich, 

I just saw your post on dendroworld did Tom every reply to you on the paper in english?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

crb_22601 said:


> Rich,
> 
> I just saw your post on dendroworld did Tom every reply to you on the paper in english?


No, he ever got back period. I think there may have been a big language barrier to cross there......


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Maybe :roll: It sounded like from your previous history they either dont like to debate or dont like to be corrected.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

crb_22601 said:


> Maybe :roll: It sounded like from your previous history they either dont like to debate or dont like to be corrected.


Here is a great article Brent wrote explaining what I tried to pass along to Tom over on D.World. Scenario 3 fits in nicely for what we are talking about here.
http://www.thebdg.org/library/anecdotal ... netics.htm
That and the fact that Robalo and Uyama River pumilio were not the same. :wink: 

Rich


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Thanks Rich.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

k, im gonna have to find a ruler now


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

I just got an email from Tuss this is the info he gave me on his line of D. Blue Pumilio 

"They came in thru FLA in 2004. I aquired them in mid 05 from V. Baker of Jacksonville"

Can anyone explain the import.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

crb_22601 said:


> I just got an email from Tuss this is the info he gave me on his line of D. Blue Pumilio
> 
> "They came in thru FLA in 2004. I aquired them in mid 05 from V. Baker of Jacksonville"
> 
> Can anyone explain the import.


Very intersting , not hearing of any 'blue' pumilio farms down there at the time, or ever. Unless they were some other import , not 'FRs'.

Rich


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Yeah I thought it was weird as well, do you have any idea or any thoughts on where to check next. And who is V. Baker?


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

I wanted to bring this back because after re-reading this I had a few more questions.

So it is understood that Rich's darklands are the only site specific darklands. And not to be mixed with any other so called darkland.

But what about Thomas's and Tuss's? Essentially from what I gather they came from the Same D. Blue Pumilio Import, correct? So you could mix these to lines together? Or is everyone calling the Blue pumilo from Thomas, Tuss's line as well and I just didn't realize that?

Thanks


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Given that Rich's frogs have a defined locality, and the others don't - they should be kept separate.

As for the distinction between Tuss's and Thomas's, I don't know if the two frogs share a similar history.

IMO, the recent imports should be kept together and mixed as such. There does get to be a fuzzy distinction between frogs that SNDF brought in that were labeled Cauchero, and then the "blue" imports that continued on for the next year and a half or so.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Probably best just to go to the sources. I have been in contact w/ Tuss before about his, but I can never seem to get a hold of Thomas; He is the owner of Pumilio.com, Right?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> IMO, the recent imports should be kept together and mixed as such. There does get to be a fuzzy distinction between frogs that SNDF brought in that were labeled Cauchero, and then the "blue" imports that continued on for the next year and a half or so.


Marcus told me in a phone conversation that the blues coming in this year from the "farm" (he didn't specify earlier years) are in fact Cauchero.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Thanks Josh - that is good to know.

So SNDF brought in Cauchero starting in 2007 (I think), so all blues that have come in this year as well as last year should be mixed. That will be something important for the people working on the Pumilio TMP.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Well I just e-mailed Thomas, so hopefully I can get an answer for his line and see if it would be compatible w/ Tuss's or not.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Well I just got an e-mail back from Thomas. He said his Blue Pumilio came in around 99-2000 and doesn't think they came in the same shipment as Tuss's. So I guess keep Rich's by themselves, Thomas's by themselves, and Tuss's by themselves.

However from bringing the post back from the dead, we have learned that the Cauchero brought in by SNDF are compatible with the D. Pumilio blue that have been popping up lately.


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