# will my frogs die with this condition?



## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

My tank seems to have temp around the 83-86F during the day and at night in the low 70-75F but humidity is good around the 80-87% all day and nights


So I want to know will the frogs stand that high of a temp or will they die? 


The tank is in the living room and the room temp is around the 80-83f during the day. The tank has 2 - 35" x 1/2" vent at the top and at the base of the substrate . A 120km gpu fan is also in the tank which is only on every 30 min for 15 mins when lights are on and coy fan is off when lights are off.... I also have a 3' t5ho bulb at the top of the tank about 8-10 inch from the top of the tank

I think it's just weather heat not trap heat in the tank so will frogs be ok or will they die?


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

What size tank? What type of frogs? What area of the tank are you taking the temperature readings at?


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> What size tank? What type of frogs? What area of the tank are you taking the temperature readings at?


its a 40 gallon breeder tank

frogs are Dendrobates tinctorius 'Bakhuis' (dont have them yet but these are what i plan on adding to the tank)

temp is taken from 1/3 at the top of the tank


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## zonz540 (Feb 8, 2012)

My temps in ~20-30" tall tanks differ by 10-15 degrees from the top to the bottom. Having good airflow and adequate leaf litter should keep temps right about where you'd want them in the 70-76 degree range. 
If it is still a couple of degrees high for your liking, try Jungle Dawn lamps. LED bulbs put out less heat than traditional CFL or fluorescent bulbs. This results in lower viv temps, even if it is only radiant heat.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

i dont think changing to led will solve the heat problem as room temp is already in the 80F vivarium usally a few degrees higer then room temp as all the heat is trap or 20% of the heat is trap in the tank even with vents so i read... does my temp likely to kill the frogs?


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

83-86 is just too hot for tincs, can you turn a.c. on?


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

can't turn on the ac as it's a living room and there is no ac unit in the front plus putting up one won't work as it's not a really insulated place too it's a apartment 

This is why I don't have frogs yet waiting to start on food cultures then move into frogs later one temp and food source are in hand then the frogs comes home lol

Will putting a house fan blowing at the tank help cool it down enough?


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## zonz540 (Feb 8, 2012)

More air movement isn't going to do much of anything, unless you have a temperature differential between the two. Seems like you need some form of a/c, or look into something that enjoys the heat, like reptiles.
http://www.costco.com/De'Longhi-Pin...ter--Dehumidifier--Fan.product.100108459.html


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

zonz540 said:


> More air movement isn't going to do much of anything, unless you have a temperature differential between the two. Seems like you need some form of a/c, or look into something that enjoys the heat, like reptiles.
> De'Longhi Pinguino 14,000 BTU | 4-in-1 All Season Whisper Cool | Portable Air Conditioner / Heater / Dehumidifier / Fan



I was looking at a computer liquid cooling system on a thermostat does any one have experience with this for cooling a vivarium?


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## Giga (Mar 31, 2011)

I bought a AC unit much liek that for my frog room- works well and keep the room at a nice 72 degrees-though mine is in a insulated finished garage


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

any other way to cool down a room without an ac unit?


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Do the frogs show any signs or stress, are they hiding alot


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

ggazonas said:


> Do the frogs show any signs or stress, are they hiding alot


i dont have any frogs yet so i wouldnt know... i wanted to get the tank in the right conditions before buying the frogs... was hopping someone had some experience with this and this is why i am asking as i wouldnt want my new pets to die over night


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> any other way to cool down a room without an ac unit?


Nothing as effective and efficient as an AC Unit. I have one in my upstairs frog room and it keeps my room at 71-72 all day long 

Low-Mid 80's isn't good. Maybe reverse the light cycle so lights are on during the night (coolest part of the day).


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

Brian317 said:


> Nothing as effective and efficient as an AC Unit. I have one in my upstairs frog room and it keeps my room at 71-72 all day long
> 
> Low-Mid 80's isn't good. Maybe reverse the light cycle so lights are on during the night (coolest part of the day).


that could work but then again room temp is around the 80's so even if lights are not on... wouldnt the tank equalize to room temp then? room temp range from 76-82F during the day, lower 76F during the morning


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

PDFanatic said:


> 83-86 is just too hot for tincs, can you turn a.c. on?


Based on what? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

What about an electric fan? I use one in my room at night when it gets really hot and it works great.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think they would be ok at those temps but you won't have much wiggle room. Make sure there are dark, cool, hidey spots in the tank; places where they can hunker down to cool off if needed. Also, I'd make sure they had a water source, lots of leafy plants, and, thick leaf litter. Make sure the lid has some ventilation. Do not let the tank get direct sunlight.

If you can swing a small window AC, I got one for 100 bucks and stuck it in a window. Now I don't use my central AC at all and my power bill went down to 60 dollars. Think about it


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

here are some pictures of my tank which should shed some light on how my tank is setup...


there will be more leaf litter later down the road once my plants had time to root down first...



as of right now my readings are

Room temp: 81.8F
Tank temp (1/3 from the top): 82.2F
Tank temp (Base/substrate level): 81.0F
Humidity (inside the tank): 84%
Tank has 2 vent top and bottom, both are 1/2" opening by 35" long


Lighting:
1 - T5 39watt 6500k bulb
it sits at 11-1/2" from the top of the tank
it sits at 2'-1/2" from the top of the substrate 
Lights are on for 6 hours a day - 3hr in the morning and 3hr at night (planning on changing this to 10 hrs a day 5 morning and 5 night)


Misting:
Tank has a mistking and misting is done when lights are on... twice a day for 15 sec's each time













































the middle back will also be planted just not sure what to plant there yet... getting an order of 6 air plants in tmr and these will go on the upfer half of the vivarium background also.... so it should be very planted and there is a coco hut on each side of tank also


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Ed said:


> Based on what?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed, if you have better advice. Please enlighten us. We all know nobody can match up to your sophisticated factual statements. I don't raise tincs but I am basing it on well here http://www.joshsfrogs.com/dendrobates-tinctorius-azureus-for-sale.html temperatures over 85°f are DANGEROUS.... Some comments...mike
http://theworldofrogs.weebly.com/dendrobates-tinctorius-care-sheet.html
I can post 100 more sites but I'm sure its all just misinformation from people who aren't scientists.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

ok so as of right now i assume this is as hot as its going to get today as its already noon or pass that its 4:50pm now

and my temp reading as of right now is

Room temp: 83.9F
Tank temp (1/3 from the top): 84.7F
Tank temp (Base/substrate level): 83.7F
Humidity (inside the tank): 84%


anyone have keep the tinc around these temps i mention?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

PDFanatic said:


> Ed, if you have better advice. Please enlighten us. We all know nobody can match up to your sophisticated factual statements. I don't raise tincs but I am basing it on well here Dendrobates tinctorius 'Azureus' | Josh's Frogs temperatures over 85°f are DANGEROUS.... Some comments...mike
> Dendrobates Tinctorius care sheet - The World of Frogs
> I can post 100 more sites but I'm sure its all just misinformation from people who aren't scientists.


People spend too much time passing dogma around and around without ever bothering to do any real research.... The appropriate question you should have asked is on what is that recommendation on Josh's site based on? 

The habitat in which the frogs are found goes up to about 30 C... which is well within the range under discussion particularly if the tank has sufficient ventilation to allow for evaporative cooling of the frogs and the tank itself.... 

I'll leave the actual references for homework.....( here's a hint though... try Lotters et al for a start...) 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

so I guess ed is saying it's safer for the darts to live in a high temp under 86f then as long as there is vents for evaporation cooling .... Would every one take ed's advice to be true? If there is more yes then no then I wouldn't be to worry about my tank for darts...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> so I guess ed is saying it's safer for the darts to live in a high temp under 86f then as long as there is vents for evaporation cooling .... Would every one take ed's advice to be true? If there is more yes then no then I wouldn't be to worry about my tank for darts...


I have a great deal of faith in Ed but I have no references to back it up.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

i have an idea... 


would it be ok to blow a/c cold air into my 40 gallon breed vivarium tank to cool it down and have it wired to a thermostat which will turn on/off the a/c if it gets to a set temp?


or 


will the cold a/c air be to much for the vivarium and kill everything? what are your thoughts on this to keep the vivarium cooled... i know most people say why not just cool the whole room but the living room isn't really insulated so it'll just all escape anyways..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> so I guess ed is saying it's safer for the darts to live in a high temp under 86f then as long as there is vents for evaporation cooling .... Would every one take ed's advice to be true? If there is more yes then no then I wouldn't be to worry about my tank for darts...


Search evaporative cooling on the site.... this is not the first time this topic has been brought up. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## kgj (May 2, 2014)

I think that's over complicating it a bit- plus, A/C's dehumidify the air. Not what you want.

Ed's point seems to be that the gospel surrounding temperature and humidity isn't necessarily correct. These animals experience significant environmental fluctuations and survive just fine. One doesn't need to keep a tinctorius at 90% humidity and between 70-80F for it to thrive. But in this case you're skirting on the higher edge of what's experienced in nature.

Temperature in San Diego yesterday was a high of 78F (25.5C). Average temp for August 13th is 76F (24.4C). Average temp for the end of August/Beginning of September is 77F (25C). Source is Wunderground. August and September is the time of concern- winter/spring temps should be OK.

However, that's an average, and collected over a hundred years. You are going to have days that are cooler, and days that are hotter. What are you going to do when SoCal has a heat wave, and temps spike in your apartment to 90F? 95F? 100F? A heat wave could spell trouble, especially if you're not there to take care of it with ice packs/etc.

Will animals survive at such a high temperature? Maybe. Will they be comfortable and not stressed? Unlikely.

I went through the same thing. My apartment is sunny, and temperatures regularly hit 80F+ inside. I went to BJ's, bought a decent AC, and leave it set at 75F on the real hot days. I'm comfortable in my apartment and the vivarium sits at upper 70s/very low 80s. I have a lot of old windows, so insulation is poor as well. On cooler summer days I can just leave the windows open for the breeze.

Insulation isn't an issue. It just means that the A/C won't be as efficient. If you set it to 75F, the A/C will keep it at 75F. Just means that your energy bill will be a little higher than it would be in a well insulated room.

Can you move the vivarium? It's clearly in front of a sunny window, so it's getting heat from that even with the blinds drawn. What about putting it in a different room, one with a window that will fit an AC unit? Buy a cheap stand and relocate.

Ultimately it's your responsibility as a pet owner to provide the best possible environment for an animal. If you can't meet those requirements, then you should look for something different. At the very least find a species that will thrive in the conditions you have.

*TL,DR*: Move the viv, get an A/C, or pick a different species.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> i have an idea...
> would it be ok to blow a/c cold air into my 40 gallon breed vivarium tank to cool it down and have it wired to a thermostat which will turn on/off the a/c if it gets to a set temp?
> or
> will the cold a/c air be to much for the vivarium and kill everything? what are your thoughts on this to keep the vivarium cooled... i know most people say why not just cool the whole room but the living room isn't really insulated so it'll just all escape anyways..


It is much much simpler to cool the room as opposed to cooling the tank. Keep in mind that cold air holds less moisture so you'll need to mess with the humidity as well as condensation on the glass. If you get condensation on the outside glass then your going to have water dripping onto the stand or the floor with the potential risk of damage. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

i can relocated the tanks to another location in the house as my brother is law is moving out next month and i would have the whole living room to move things around i'll check other spots for the best temp... most likely the oppisite side of the window where light isnt directly on the tank... an a/c unit isnt the issue i can pick one up or use the one i have on hand it was just more of the E bill at the end of each month... but lets see what readings i get from the other side of the window...


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## Dart girl (Sep 25, 2013)

Brian317 said:


> Nothing as effective and efficient as an AC Unit. I have one in my upstairs frog room and it keeps my room at 71-72 all day long
> 
> 
> 
> Low-Mid 80's isn't good. Maybe reverse the light cycle so lights are on during the night (coolest part of the day).



In the summer I run reverse light cycle with only half as many lights on, 2 fans plus frog room is in the the basement. At night when it's cooler I open the basement door to blow cool air in.


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

Can't help but notice the way tanks are stacked. Could lower tank lights be heating up the upper tank? Looks like it is closed in IMO looks like it would trap heat. T5's can get warm expecially with no air flow around them.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

toostrange said:


> Can't help but notice the way tanks are stacked. Could lower tank lights be heating up the upper tank? Looks like it is closed in IMO looks like it would trap heat. T5's can get warm expecially with no air flow around them.


no cause in the back under the vivarium "the t5 thats on the aquarium" has a 2" strip for the heat to escape through the back... or else i would end up with a moldy stand lol


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

I have heard that leucs have a higher temperature range than many other dart frogs... Do you have your heart set on the tinks? 


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

Ignimbrite said:


> I have heard that leucs have a higher temperature range than many other dart frogs... Do you have your heart set on the tinks?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


not really just wanted one with bright color and something that will stand out in the tank


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

I would definitely think about getting leucs then. They are one of the three "beginner" frogs and are very bold. They climb a lot more than tinks or auratus do and also do great in groups. They have striking yellow and black spots and bands. They also tolerate temps up to about 85 degrees. I would look at the care sheet on this site as well as looking at the description on Josh's Frogs website. They will give you a better idea of how to care for them. I think they would fit your situation well though


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## Ignimbrite (Jun 28, 2014)

I would still consider moving your setup though. If it's out of direct sunlight it will help your temps a lot as was suggested above. 


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

i think even the care sheet on tinc say up to 85F or 80F but in a weeks time the tank will be relocated or in 2 weeks i should say to a more shaded area of the room and away from the window... room temp is in the 85F+ the past few days so even moving the take wouldnt cool or keep it cool enough as out side temp is about the same as the living room temp. this is with all windows open also... 

i dont have any frogs yet so i really dont need to worry to much about it... still need to find some FF to start a culture first then frogs after so i have plenty of time to figure everything out with temp tho...


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Aside from the room temperature, you have to consider that lights on your aquarium contribute greatly to raise the temps of your viv, as has already been suggested by Toostrange. I can speak from personal experience about that. 
On the other hand, with these temps in your house I am surprised that your aquarium is so lush. Very nice aquarium, really.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

rigel10 said:


> Aside from the room temperature, you have to consider that lights on your aquarium contribute greatly to raise the temps of your viv, as has already been suggested by Toostrange. I can speak from personal experience about that.
> On the other hand, with these temps in your house I am surprised that your aquarium is so lush. Very nice aquarium, really.


thanks i think its cause misting is twice a day and there is a good amount of ventilation also i added more plants and more wood to the tank to give it a more natural jungle like feel to the tank also.... will post some more photos up soon so that you guys get an idea of what the tank "Really" looks like when its setup


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

just wanted to give an update on the tank but my temp has gone down to around the 80-81F as the weather has cooled off a bit in the 79F which i think its safe for frogs but the question i am having is how long will it stay like this... 



anyways heres an update of the tank also 

P.S. the temp was on a hot day and humidity was down cause i open the tank to add more water to the pond


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

ok so a little update here... i decided not to go with an ac unit for many reasons

1: waste a lot of power to cool the living room up
2: cost about 100-300$ for a cheap one which i dont think will cut it during summer time unless u run it like 10 hours...


would be good if it was a frog room but this tank is a display so ac is out of the question...


i looked around for something that would work great for what i need it to be and came over a lot of ideas and what really got me thinking was building a Peltier cooling system which would then be attach to the side of the tank... 

it should cost me about 100$ to built one. low energy cost, cools much much faster to ice!!! i will have some photos up once my order comes in... i think this is the best idea to cool down a display tank at a low energy cost for half the price of an ac and works 5x better for my situation. 


any one used this before and can add some advice ?


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## tigertail333 (Sep 23, 2014)

Ive lost tincs because of temps higher than 80. Do you have AC? U need to keep the room in the mid 70s.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

tigertail333 said:


> Ive lost tincs because of temps higher than 80. Do you have AC? U need to keep the room in the mid 70s.


Temperatures in the low to mid eighties should not be an issue for tincs if you have adequate ventilation. How do you ventilate your vivariums? The need to keep temps below eighty is outdated thinking and based on fully enclosed conditions. 

John


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

i had stop using the ac and just let the tank take care of it self... there are days in the high 88F some time 90F and my tinc seem to be doing fine... always out and eating when its feeding time... RH% is always in the high 95+


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

This probably won't help much, since you don't have frogs yet (and bravo for looking into all of this before you get them!). But I live in SoCal, where obviously it can get ridiculously hot. We have central air, and I also have a standalone A/C unit in my room because of my disability; I'm extra sensitive to heat.

After awhile I've learned to glance at the thermometer or temp gun, but focus more on the frogs' behavior. Usually in the low- to mid-80s the AC is on, but not always since my room gets awesome cross-breezes. At first I would slightly panic when I saw the thermometer creeping up the 80s, but every time the frogs were out, alert, active, hunting and/or courting. I decided to let the frogs inform me whether it was comfortable enough in there if I had doubts, rather than automatically turning on the AC at a particular temperature. It turns out the frogs are comfier at higher temperatures than I am!

The same goes for the lower end of the scale. At first I never expected to see them if the temperature were below 70, but it's been relatively chilly lately and I've been surprised to see the frogs just as (apparently) happy as ever. When I woke up today it was about 65-66 degrees, and the frogs were up and flying all over the viv trying to catch fungus gnats.

Obviously the problem with this system is you can't start out that way, since you don't know your species yet, let alone the individual frogs. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I were you, I would try to prepare for any eventuality (like loss of power), but be ready to adjust if it turns out the frogs turn out to be less -- or critically, MORE -- sensitive to the temperature ranges that you've learned.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I just wanted to add that I'm not sure whether getting frogs as adults or froglets makes a difference. I have a totally unsupported idea that since I got mine at three months OOW, they grew up acclimating/adjusting to the temperature in my room.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so what happened to the Peltier cooling system??? If you do decide to go that way, keep a log with pictures!


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

the peltier works great for smaller setups like 10-20 gallon but anything bigger then that it would be useless... got to admit it cools the tanks down form 85F to 75F in less then 10 mins...


i upgraded to a bigger tanks and now i'm left with the peltier unit just sitting around with no use for it any more...


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