# Split Conflict from "New Leuc Morph" Post



## Guest (Oct 12, 2004)

At the risk of sounding harsh, what is wrong with making a few extra bucks off a "hobby"? To you it's a hobby, because you do not have the capitol, facility or the know how to raise and breed eighty to a hundred different species for profit. 

What are you saying to people who do not view it as a hobby? 
Thomas Villegas from Pumilio.com works very hard. He breeds the most expensive frogs he can, and if a "money maker" comes available to him, he will work with it for the purpose of making money.

Aaron Handzlik up in New York, a very good friend of mine, has over four hundred breeding pairs of poison frogs. He makes about five or six grand a month doing dart frogs.

Do you sell your offspring? If you do, you are making a few extra bucks off your hobby, and that makes you a hypocrite. By your standard, anybody who selectively breeds for a certain bloodline is bad, because they are selectively breeding for color, be it bright blue legs, or whatever.

Let it go. Many out there are immensely enthralled by albinos, and find the abberation beautiful to behold. Besides, leucs are quite the seasonal breeder for most, so a spate of albinos will become an annual thing at best for all but the most skilled of poison frog breeders.

John Gibeau


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Was *everyone* there?

I tend to sit on things and let the folks do their own announcing of what they want to know. Unless it's on their website or something along that line.

Oh - did he mention the thing about "male" pumilio there?

s


Tincs.com said:


> Scott said:
> 
> 
> > Hey John,
> ...


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I wasn't going to comment but I find it hard to believe that Patrick would purposefully release (sell) only male pumilio into the hobby. Where is this coming from, did he state this or are you making assumptions based on the fact that there are a lot of males floating around in the hobby? I got a couple of bastis from him a few years ago and one or two are females.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2004)

Guys,

Looking at this objectively, it makes no sense to only release males. From a pure market analysis it would simple be stupid to hold females to build demand. Assuming that the sexes are equally produced (although this is wrong, the fact that thumbs overproduce males doesn't help your argument) Patrick would be reducing his supply by 50%. To be profitable, the demand would have to double. The problem with doubling demand is that dart frogs are a luxury item (elastic market). Demand is already high enough for him to charge a premium for his product, without holding back 1/2 of his supply.

The argument that preventing males from to enter the market to keep a monopoly also makes no sense. The ability for most hobbyists to meet the quantity, quality, and service provided by professional breeders is extremely limited. Patrick moves absurd amounts of stock, and I promise that a few cb pumilio are not going to affect his market share. Even if it was to affect his market share, it would have to do so by 50% to make these hold backs profitable.

Now my subjective comment. Are you kidding me?

~Joe


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Exactly.

s


hicksonj said:


> ... Now my subjective comment. Are you kidding me?


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2004)

Deleted...


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Tincs.com said:


> Just my opinion, and not meant as a bash on Patrick. He is good at what he does.
> 
> John


It sure comes across as a bash. I certainly doubt Patrick would appreciate that type of allegation.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2004)

I have to agree there. 
MW


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I agree as well. Privately having these views and sharing them with friends is one thing, but publically posting them on a forum where his current and future customers visit is a bash.


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2004)

John,

I think (hope) we may all be miss-understanding your statements. If you are claiming that Patrick is holding back females to prevent competition, that's complete bologna. I stand by my previous post, that it makes no financial sense. He isn't the only source of pumilio. If you are claiming that he is holding back female to make pairs, then that is a much less nasty claim. He has every right to take care of his business and family, by ensuring that he can produce as much stock as possible. Since pums produce male dominant numbers, this is pretty much a foregone conclusion. It makes absolute sense. If you want sexed pairs, pay the price. If you want to inform people about this commercial breeding paradox/reality, please do. But, don't go public that someone is holding back to defeat competition.

~Joe


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Tincs.com said:


> At the risk of sounding harsh, what is wrong with making a few extra bucks off a "hobby"? To you it's a hobby, because you do not have the capitol, facility or the know how to raise and breed eighty to a hundred different species for profit.
> 
> What are you saying to people who do not view it as a hobby? Patrick Nabors does not view it as a hobby. He views it as a way to make a living. He is working with an albino reticulatus, and I guarantee you, will do whatever he can to maintain the same corner on that morph as long as he can, just like he did with pumilio, by only selling males for the longest time. Go ahead, tell him he is a bad dart frog breeder because he is selectively breeding the albino retic.
> 
> ...


Yes, but why risk the integrity of the frogs whcih could cause major problems later on in the hobby for money? Thats my point. I see no problem in people breeding frogs for money, but selectively breeding them to get albinos can cause problems.

Ryan

EDIT:
Oh yeah, and of course I dont have a problem with responsible breeding of the pdfs for money. If it wasnt for it the majority of us wouldn't beable to own them today.


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

*Accusations of Unethical Business Practices*

Hi all, a couple of people let me know this was going on, and that perhaps I would like to weigh in on it....so, here I am! 
First let me say that I have never sold John a frog. I am sure I have sold Bastimentos to people John knows, but never John, so I dont know where he gets off implying that he has bought frogs from me. This statement that follows is utter unadulterated BS, and John will not be able to provide a shred of evidence that it is true. 

" A few of us here are suspicious that this might have been going on, since some of us would buy from Saurian, and in numbers along the lines of ten or twelve, and every single one would be calling in the cup. "

This accusation is one of unethical business practices, and I am offended by it. It would basically be fraud to sell people frogs which you knew the sex ratio of, and not tell them. I think an apology is in order, along with a statement that you have no knowledge of any such practice on my part. 

I have never had a customer tell me a pumilio that I shipped them was calling in the cup, and I have never sent any one ten pumilio to have them all turn out male, to my knowledge. I have often warned/advised my customers that there is a high male sex ratio in captive bred Bastimentos pumilio, at least those I produce, and have freely speculated that you might get as few as two or three females in each group of ten frogs. I have had a couple of customers get five and six and have them all turn out to be males, but these things happen, for instance I recently purchased ten 
Santa Isabella tricolors and had them all turn out male, and purchased ten Red vents and had them turn out 9.1. Skewed sex ratios seem to be a fact of life in the captive breeding of dart frogs. 
I certainly have sent out plenty of female pumilios, if I have to I am certain I can round up a parade of people to say that they got females from me, and are breeding them. 

As for the albino retics, its fine that John mentioned them, after all I did mention them in a talk to fifty or so people, along with a slide of them....they are not a particularly exciting project, just a curiousity, and I personally dont think that they will sell for as much as regular retics by the time, and or if, I get them to "market". For now they are an occasional offspring from a pair, and the froglets dont do that well. 

John, I will repeat what many have said before me to you, grow up and dont run your mouth when you dont know what you are talking about. 
One more thing....in a recent Kingsnake post you concluded with saying your collection numbered over forty species of dart frogs, but didnt want to bore anyone with your species. I for one, having only a meager low to mid twenties in my species count, am very curious to see the list of your forty plus species in your collection. 

Thanks to all for reading!! 
Patrick


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Nice to here both sides. At first i didnt realize what he was saying about the calling in cups, then I noticed it, guess shouldnt read at 5 in the morning.

If I start ordering darts from the internet and not shows Patrick is my top choice so far.

Ryan


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## ChrisMc (Mar 7, 2004)

I got two basti's from Patrick several years ago and they both turned out to be females. It sounds like I was pretty lucky, it made it easy to find a male


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks for your post Patrick, I was laughing at this ridiculousness, I don't think it could be taken seriously.

I do want to say though that Patrick has sold/traded us wonderful frogs over the many years we've known him. When he has had a single frog and we have had a single frog, he has shipped his loner to us to work with, which has done great things for our breeding groups. Not really the mark of someone who is trying to quell other frog breeders. 


Christina


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2004)

*Re: Accusations of Unethical Business Practices*

Deleted


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

People love drama and when ever they can help stir it up they will jump right in.


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

Hi John, sorry I forgot you were a customer, my memory isnt the greatest some times. Anyway John, I feel you are missing the point.

I appreciate all your compliments, your repeated statements that my frogs are great, but this, to me, is simply camouflage for the other comments, which are, to me, very serious! These other comments are not presented as opinions, rather as facts….you say in your first quote “just like he did with pumilio, by only selling males for the longest time.” This comment does not read as opinon, but rather as if it were a matter of public knowledge, an established fact. So while you compliment my “wonderful” frogs, you let it "slip" that I deliberately cull the females from my customers orders, sending out only males. As if you had inside knowledge of this practice. This would be fraud, and I feel strongly that you are asserting that I routinely defraud my customers in this way, or have in the past, thus my demand for an apology. Later you somewhat revise your statement to say that “A few of us here are suspicious that this might have been going on” which is certainly a bit less inflammatory, and not as direct an accusation, but none the less an unpleasant smear. Even in your last post, at the end you imply that since I am making a fuss, I must be guilty. 

You seem to think that I am taking this too seriously, but this is my livlihood, and I have a good reptutation because I try to treat my customers right. What you are saying you think I do is certainly not treating people right, and I wouldnt expect many people to buy from me if they thought I might be manipulating them in this way. 

The other assertion you make that I take issue with is your statement that you and at least one other person, presumably one if not more of my customers, have been there to see ten to twelve of my Bastimentos pumilio calling in the shipping cups after the box was opened. I find this very difficult to believe, in fact while I have sent over sixty Bastimentos to the Seattle area in the past three years, I have only sent ten Bastimentos pumilio at one time to the Seattle area twice, and one of those occasions was a shipment of ten to one person, so I doubt you were there when that box was opened. As best I can tell in looking through my records,(which are much better than my memory!) the only time I have ever sent a shipment of over eight Bastimentos to more than one person in the Seattle area was in October of ’03. I will contact both parties tomorrow, and find out if they too witnessed this rather remarkable phenomenon. 

In conclusion, John, I do feel that you have indeed besmirched my reputation, by accusing me of ripping off my customers, by deliberately sending them all males. You have admitted that you cant prove it, so that alone is reason enough for an apology for your first statement. In addition you have stated that you and a group of people witnessed ten or twelve of my pumilio calling in their cups, so if that is the case, I would like to hear from the other parties, and since there are only a very small number of possible parties on that list, I will contact them to resolve it, and report back to this forum what I find, or if one of the other witnesses wishes to confirm Johns observation, I would be very interested to hear about it. 

PS…John, sorry I jumped to conclusions there regarding your collection, since it was the arrow frog forum, I assumed that you were referring to dart frogs. I can easily see that you could have forty or more species of frogs. I was just curious and had been since I saw the post. My curiousity is satisfied, thanks for responding. 

Patrick


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2004)

Deleted...


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2004)

Tincs.com said:


> Patrick, this has gone way off on a side tangent, and does not need to be aired publicly any longer. Give me a call this evening if you will - (360) 799-1964.
> 
> John



I don't mean to offend either party or to stir the coals, and with that said, as a potential customer of Saurian, I'd like to see this settled publicly. 

I have not bought from Saurian yet, and this thread could cause me some extra work as a consumer (as in, making sure that Suarian wouldn't deliberately hold back females). I am willing to go to that work, but how many of Patrick's potential customers are? If I didn't happen to have experienced contacts in the hobby, I might just not take the chance and buy from someone else. It wouldn't matter how wonderful his frogs are, who would want to buy from such a jerk?

"The word suspicious was used because there is NO evidence. Patrick is exactly right, I cannot and have no reason or inclination to "provide" evidence to support and prosecute this idea, or thought process. It was just curious to me when a large group would come in, and be all male, a complaint would be made, and wow! the next group is only one male and all females. There is no "evidence" of wrongdoing, just a thought, and those, even on a public forum, are legal, contrary to popular belief. "

So, just for clarity's sake, let me restate this and tell me if I'm wrong, please. 

John wrote: "He is working with an albino reticulatus, and I guarantee you, will do whatever he can to maintain the same corner on that morph as long as he can, just like he did with pumilio, by only selling males for the longest time," and then wrote "My opinion stands, Patrick gets no apology for my opinion" 

...So the stray claim that Patrick was only selling male pumilio for the longest time was just an opinion that was based on "no evidence." Is this correct?


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

Libel is not protected under the Freedom of speech! 

-Dictionary.com-
li·bel n. 
a. A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation. 
b. The act of presenting such material to the public.


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

No John, this has not gone "way off on a side tangent", and no I will not call you, I have no interest in speaking with you. 
You made a direct statement regarding my business practices, which accuses me of defrauding my customers in a routine and systematic way. I will not stand idly by while such a claim is made. I will pursue this matter until it is put to bed. You may have buried this comment in a bunch of nice sounding things you said about me or my frogs, but this doesnt change what you said. 

In this interest, I still ask that you retract your smear of my business and personal ethics in print here in this forum, specifically that you feel that I deliberately sold only male animals to my customers. I know this is false, and I am confident that my customers know this is false, even those people who did get only males in their shipments, of which I am aware of several. 

Second I wish you to retract the statement that at some point in the past you witnessed a shipment of ten to twelve Bastimentos, or any pumilio from me, calling in their shipping cups. On this, as I said above, there is proof one way or the other, because I have only sent a few larger shipments to the Seattle area, and I am in the process of speaking to these people one by one. As far as I know, I have a good relationship with all these people, because they are happy with the frogs I have sent them. I am sure I would have heard immediately from such a customer, and I did not, and so I dont expect to find a customer of mine who stood there with you and watched a box full of calling frogs. When I am through, if I cant find a customer who will verify your claim, then what should I think?? 
Can you please either back up, or retract this statement?? 

The individual (Lydia) who writes above is typical of the sort of problem your irresponsible libelous comments pose to me. To you they may have been offhand comments, but as you are no doubt getting the picture, I take them extremely seriously. 

Good day!


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm feeling like I wasn't strong enough in an earlier post. We have known Patrick for 10 years, we started as his customers, and in a short time became friends with him and nore recently his wife as well. We are still customers and friends, after 10 years of both, which is no small feat in this community.

I think Patrick's references (John's withstanding) have been pretty spectacular, so Lydia, I hope you use these on vendor feedback as a reference tool, and not this thread. 

Brent Brock (sorry to name drop Brent) made a good point about statistical significance on another forum. to get a group of 10 frogs and base the integrity of a breeder on their sex ratio is irresponsible. As Brent pointed out you would need at least 30 and more for an experiment like this would be better. 

It also brings up another point to me. What if these casual observations and a subsequent experiment with a larger group of animals did show that some species did produce significantly more of one sex than another? What would this mean? Maybe that we don't have a firm grasp on dartfrog genetics? That there's something in our husbandry that is causing a shift? Some environmental factor, say in the water that we raise our tadpoles in is causing it? I guess the ability of the breeder to hold a divining rod over developing froglets to determine sex is low on the list of probables to me.

Christina


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Lydia,

I think your observations are very pertinent to this conversation. Although we have not purchased from Patrick yet, I am sure we will in the not too distant future. 

We are entering our 4th year of business, and until now, I have never heard a negative word uttered about his character or quality of his animals. 

Melis




Lydia said:


> I have not bought from Saurian yet, and this thread could cause me some extra work as a consumer (as in, making sure that Suarian wouldn't deliberately hold back females). I am willing to go to that work, but how many of Patrick's potential customers are? If I didn't happen to have experienced contacts in the hobby, I might just not take the chance and buy from someone else. It wouldn't matter how wonderful his frogs are, who would want to buy from such a jerk?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I have a hard time believing Patrick can even tell at times (if he can at the age of the frogs) what sex he is even sending out on a lot of his frogs. When I got my two imitators from him a while ago I thought one was a female its body shape. It later turned out to be a male. He also publicly announces on his waiting list that he holding back individuals to create better breeding pairs/groups or how ever he breeds. He sends out a ton of frogs. I have bought from both Patrick and have done business with John and I can not say a bad thing a bought either one’s business practices. I do not understand where this comes from. I have never heard of this before. I know in my geographic area ( Peoria and Bloomington/Normal, IL ) I do not know a person who can say a bad thing about Patrick Nabors. Part of the animal breeding business is holding back to restock a breeders. Females tend to be holdbacks in any species. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

Hi Jared, sorry your topic got hijacked, I think it would be good if the moderators could weed out the posts that are irrelevant to the original thread and put them all together in a new thread under vendor feedback or some more appropriate area, but I am not sure if that is possible. 
And thanks to those of you who have spoken up in my defense, I appreciate it. 
By the way, for anyone sending me PMs, I dont know how to use this feature, and dont really want to learn. If you want to contact me, I can be emailed at [email protected]

Thanks!


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2004)

That's not your fault Patrick. And BTW, I hope to get a few of your leucs when they are ready


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Hi Lydia.*

Hi Lydia,

It is the smart hobbyist who does their homework before buying frogs. But, Patrick Nabors is one of the good guys. I got 4 Bastamento's pumilio from Patrick last October, and all I can say is "wow." He did in fact warn me of his high male to female production ratio, but my wife and I ordered anyways. I asked to be placed on his waiting list. I had bought 2 pumilio males (knowing that they were males) from another hobbyist earlier in the year, and wanted to get a large pumilio tank together. In a short amount of time I recieved a call from Patrick saying that my four were ready. I got what I expected and more. I had four beautiful bright red Bastamentos pumilio in awsome condition. We raised them together in a 20 gallon tall, and when they were the right size, I placed them all together in 60 gallon bowfront. July 4th I caught glimpses of two newly emerged froglets, which are still doing well, getting big, and doing their thing. I cannot be more pleased with these frogs.

In fact, I have since bought 6 more frogs from Patrick. Different species, but great, healthy frogs. All, are doing well. In fact, I had to ask Patrick how old the frogs were because they were so rubust. He doesn't sell you fresh out of the water froglets. He sells you healthy, frogs of wonderous variety. You just can't ask any better than Patrick's frogs. I highly recommend him, and will do business with him again. Just look at his waiting list on his website. Its long, and there is a reason why. So don't hesitate to do business with Patrick. Lydia I wish there were more breeders like him.
Dave McLay


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2004)

Retraction - Patrick is a god, and is lucky to have so many people willing to jump to his defense, even if they have never bought frogs from him, do not know him, (not saying that I do before that turns into an issue.) and have no clue what is being discussed.

I have never seen a frog with Saurian.net stamped on the side of it, so actually cannot say whether or not he has actually sent out only males, though the people who bought them said that they were from a guy named Patrick Nabors of Saurian.Net, and that they were all males, and that when they complained, and they purchased more, I saw another group of frogs come in that were allegedly from Patrick, and were all females and one male. I guess I am not allowed to form an opinion on such a thing.

For it to be libelous, (anything that I have printed here) I have to KNOWINGLY type a false claim. I don't know anything, but do have an opinion. And libel is a crime Mr Hoff, I do not commit crimes. But I will print what I think. Get over it. You were the one on frognet who said that this boards format was so great because you do not have to read what you do not want to - Exercise that.

This will have to be good enough for Patrick, because it is not going to get any better, or go any farther by my hand.

John


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Tincs.com said:


> For it to be libelous, (anything that I have printed here) I have to KNOWINGLY type a false claim. I don't know anything, but do have an opinion. And libel is a crime Mr Hoff, I do not commit crimes. But I will print what I think. Get over it. You were the one on frognet who said that this boards format was so great because you do not have to read what you do not want to - Exercise that.
> 
> This will have to be good enough for Patrick, because it is not going to get any better, or go any farther by my hand.
> 
> John


John,

Yet again you are posting about what you do not know. Libel is a tort rather than a crime, and the requirement of knowing falseness (made popular by the _New York Times v. Sullivan_ case, and typically referred to as "actual malice") for a statement to be libelous only applies to the media in reporting news in most jurisdictions (p.s., not legal advice to anyone, just for educational purposes).

I think most people jumped on you because you took a cheap shot at a member of our small community, and it had nothing to do with the topic. Then you got rather inconsistent about the allegations. I don't have to know somebody to realize when someone else is just taking a cheap shot at them. We've seen that enough around here, and I'll be the first to tell you I don't care for it. 

So, we can exercise our ability to ignore distasteful and immature bashing, or we can speak up about it. I, for one, believe that evil happens when good men do nothing.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2004)

Thanks to those who replied, as many of you figured the purpose of my post was to get more *facts* up about Patrick's business than opinions that are based on no evidence. For newbies like me. 

Thanks again.

I'm on Patrick's list for imitators, and I can't wait!!!


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

Well John, while you start by saying you are making a retraction, there is no retraction here. I am not a god, just an honest business person whose hard earned good reputation has been smeared by you. 

Again, my complaint with you is that you have made the statement that I only sent out males for a long time. You stated this as a matter of fact, and base it on a very small sample size. I had aproximately two dozen customers for these frogs in '01, and again in '02, then up to about thirty in '03 and this year. You know some of them, but I am sure that you dont know most of them, and you certainly havent communticated with most of them. Many of these people are now the proud parents of baby frogs that were produced by the all male shipments I sent them. Perhaps I should write a paper on the parthenogenic characteristics of the captive bred male Bastimentos pumilio. Only a small portion of these frogs went to the Seattle area, and your statement that you were present to witness the opening of a shipment of ten or twelve of my frogs makes it easy for me to determine that you must have been present for one of three shipments that I made with eight or more frogs in it to the Seattle area. 
However having contacted these people, and having them all tell me that you were not there,(not to mention that in these cases the frogs were eventually determined to be of a mixed sex ratio) leads me to ask you to clarify this. Did you actually witness a shipment with all of the Bastimentos pumilio in the shipment calling in the cups they were shipped in? In your initial post it sounded like you were right there when they were unpacked at the airport, or the persons home, right? Since it couldnt have been one of the shipments of ten frogs I made, how many frogs were in the shipment if you care to restate the number? Hey, I would even settle for you saying you actually saw all ten of them calling at this persons house a few weeks later, but I know that didnt happen either. Again, I am tempted to break out the L word, and its not libel! The fact that I know this incident never occured as you say it did really makes me mad! 

I am beginning to suspect I know the order that you are referring to, and the actual number of frogs was six in the order, and the person wasnt able to determine the sex of the frogs for a few weeks or more, as the frogs were IMMATURE when they arrived, as are almost all the Bastimentos I ship out, which means when I ship them they are .......UNSEXABLE! Thats right, even I with my God like powers I am unable to sex immature pumilio. Then this person got a few Green pumilio from me, and....bummer, he and the guy that split that order got mostly females of the Green pumilio. 

John, I dont know what else to say, your assumptions based on a few frogs shipped to a handful of people are interesting, and yours to make, but when you go on a forum such as this and start making things up to make your story more believable, and accusing me of deliberately defrauding my customers, then I get a little cranky. 

I am resigned that you are not going to make a retraction on this issue, and certainly personally think you should be "tossed" as you put it, but thats not up to me. I have wasted enough time and energy on this issue. 

Patrick


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

Tincs.com said:


> Retraction - Patrick is a god, and is lucky to have so many people willing to jump to his defense, even if they have never bought frogs from him, do not know him, (not saying that I do before that turns into an issue.) and have no clue what is being discussed.


Since Melissa is one of the people who said that we'd reccomend Patrick even though we have not purchased from him and because of John's statement above, I wanted to clarify something here. We have not purchased frogs directly from Patrick, however, we have purchased some of his frogs from another person. Additionally, enough of our friends have purchased from Patrick that I think we can give an endorsement for him. 

So what I'm saying here John is that we (and others on this forum) have just as much right to have an opinion as you do in regards to Patrick. I think Todd and Christina have amazing frogs as well. Have we purchased from them? Not yet. But I've heard enough about them, spoken to them, and have seen their offspring. Just because you haven't purchased directly from someone doesn't mean you don't know their quality.


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2004)

Well TheChocoHut has bought numerous frogs from Patrick in the past. We have even been to Patrick's house and delivered frogs for him back to Kansas City. I have personally bought pumilio from Patrick, and guess what I ended up with all females. I highly recommend Patrick, he is one of the top breeders out there, and no one can argue that.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

As if the numerous testimonies on Patrick's behalf aren't enough, I feel compelled to add my own. Although I have purchased equipment from Patrick, I have never purchased a frog from him. I have only met him once just this year at NWFF and unfortunately didn't get much of a chance to talk. However, I've been in this hobby for quite a few years. Not as long as some, but longer than most. In that time I've met and become friends with a good number of the folks in the hobby including many that you regularly see posting on this forum. I would venture that most of the people I regularly associate with in the hobby have gotten at least one frog from Patrick. In the seven or so years I've been involved in this community and the many, many froggers that I know, I have NEVER, not once, heard a complaint about Patrick, his frogs, or his business dealings. That is no small feat in this hobby. I would be hard pressed to count more than 5 hobbyists that have exchanged a comparable number of frogs with zero complaints that I am aware of. That is VERY impressive to me. There are many good breeders out there but from what I have seen and heard, Patrick ranks among the very best.

I just find it very unfortunate that this has happened. Like Christina said, there are many possible reasons for skewed sex ratios, especially in captive populations.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

Patrick has been in the hobby for years. He is a credible and straight forward guy. I've done business with him in the past and have always been pleased. I never felt he was trying to pull a fast one or pump himself up over others. I've learned to keep my big mouth shut over the years but couldn't think of anything negative to say about Patrick if I tried.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2004)

I have bought and traded for most of my frogs with Patrick. He is a great guy to deal with. 
 Mark W.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2005)

deleted


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

Wow. That's all I can say is wow.


Patrick, I have never bought from you, but you have a good reputation in my mind from what I have heard about you. Very honest to deal with and a good person on these forums. Some people need to grow up. They are making it out like you are conspiring to take over the Pumilio business or some crazy thing like that. 

People there will always be female Pumilios out there. If you are not happy with Patrick's business, don't buy from him, but don't make it out like he is a bad businessman.

Mike C


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

So why dredge it up again for everyone else to read?

s


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2005)

Hi everyone,

I am from Canada, and I have heard really good things about Patrick; I do not think a person with such a good reputation would be doing something like that. Eventhough I have never bought a frog from Patrick I personally would, if I had the chance, since I have heard that his frogs are amazing.


Cheers 

Xavier


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

hello all,
if patrick has near as many frogs as me(and from what i read he has more(i dont have 400 pairs its closer to 40 pairs maybe 50)) there would be no where near enough time to spray and mark all your frogs,even pumilio, to get rid of just males. your talking about loosing money(from the amount of time to sex them for sure) to give out all males.
i cant believe they think you'd have enough time to do that. they must think your a super frog breeder. patrick has a great rep and i seriously doubt he has the time or the desire to do something like that. it takes enough time to try and sex out our own frogs or frogs for sexed orders. it took me 3 months of spraying and seperating to find out i had a group of 3 male bastis.
you realize that pumilio are a marginal money maker. my powder blues, although they are more of a chore, are a better money maker than my pumilio. powder blues can produce 7 froglets a week at $25-50ea. in 3 months i can have 90 powders available, the same time it takes to produce 5-7 chiriqui pumilio. the powder produce 2250 - 4500 while the pumilio maybe 1000$. the pumilio are a labor of love not money. pumilio take up 2x the space and the froglets are much harder, usually requiring springtails to thrive. patrick would be better off holding back all his female powder blues. best of luck patrick,
aaron


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