# Cheap Fruit Fly Question



## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Don't be harsh on me but what would be the cheapest plan to buy hydei fruit flies for one phyllobates bicolor. Petco and Petsmart are the nearest pet stores but don't provide hydei and other websites are fine and all but are too expensive in shipping(12$!). That means I would need to pay 12 every 3-4 weeks! I also can't breed them(mom hates ff's).


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

You can't breed them because she hates them? But she'll allow you to buy them and have them shipped to your home? Seems like you'ld have the same issues with fruit flies buying them or breeding them. They're going to be in your home, what's the difference?

There really isn't a cost effective way to constantly buy flies and have them shipped. Huge waste of money when you can keep cultures going for about .25-50cents per culture.

Only thing I could possibly think of is if you have another local Frogger that would be willing to help you out with a culture every so often. I generally just give culture away to locals in need. I seldom sell them. You might find somebody close who could culture for you.

Seems to me though the best idea is to convince mom that you can responsibly culture them. Make sure you have a fruit fly proof enclosure, and keep a trap near the viv constantly for any that escape when you open doors/lids.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Breeding them and keeping them isn't any different at all. To culture more flies simply transfer 50-100 flies into a new container with new media every couple weeks to start a new culture.

If you are keeping a culture for multiple feedings, 'breeding' them would be no different other than having multiple containers for flies.

Buying fruit flies for every feeding is expensive, inconvenient and dangerous for your frogs. What do you do if you run out of flies and your local petstore has no flies? The cultures at Petco and Petsmart are hit or miss, sometimes they have little to no flies if they are even available at all. Even my local reptile stores don't always have flies in stock. 

Unless you have an unlimited local fruit fly supply, I would say culturing your own feeders is a MUST for this hobby.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Is your mother worried about smell or just them crawling around? If it's smell, the media smells great when you first mix it (or at least neherp's does), and even at the one month mark when you toss it, it doesn't smell bad really and even if it does, the smell doesn't extend outside the cup really.

If it's them crawling around, like Doug said, just keep a trap outside the viv, plus I'm sure you already have dozens of bugs and flies already crawling/flying around your house without you realizing it, but I wouldn't phrase it that way to your mom


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Yeah, she sometimes confuses me. I will try to convince her that I can culture them. Actually, she says she would rather buy them than culture them. I think I can culture them myself at school because my teacher needs them for her vampire crabs and my mom didn't really reply to it so yeah. Hopefully!


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Oh and also, is there anyone willing to ship free cultures near Fullerton, California(I can pay for the shipping fee though).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A point to consider with bicolor (and terribilis) is that you can feed them larger prey items such as crickets up to 1/4 inch in size. This would get you past the need to use fruit flies completely. I would suggest all the frog would eat three times a week as sufficient with the crickets. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks Ed! Always glad to hear your feedback. I have slightly deviated from the idea of crickets due to the many debates over their nutritional value and meat percentage.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Andrew Lee said:


> Thanks Ed! Always glad to hear your feedback. I have slightly deviated from the idea of crickets due to the many debates over their nutritional value and meat percentage.


A lot of the negative online claims about crickets at best are inaccurate and at worst pure fabricated BS. If you feed the crickets a good diet for at least 48 hours before feeding them out they will have a good nutritional value. A point that is generally ignored in many of those discussions is that virtually all of the supplements used to dust the feeders were designed to balance crickets. 

And if anyone tries to make the tired totally BS claim of that they carry pinworms they should track down a copy of Padilla, L., K. Flammer, and R. Miller. "Klarsfeld J, Mitchell M. An evaluation of the gray cricket, Acheta domestica, as a source of oxyurids for reptiles. J Herpe Med Surg 15 (1): 18-20, 2005." (2005). before they ever try to give advice ever again. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks! Will try crickets.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

sent you a pm before reading this thread....but don't forget that the supplements are a necessary part of the diet...read the forums on feeding and nutrition...buy the supplements, keep in refrig. (not in freezer)...replace in 6 months so be sure to mark ON THE BOTTLE when you start to use them so you'll have a heads up on replacing them. If you ask the question in this thread, or start another one--get names of people kinda local to your specific location...you may just get that person to get you started... OH...and you can also look into using the wingless melo. ffs.--tell your mom, and promise to throw them out regardless of how many may remain at end of 25 days...


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Ed, Thank you. I have always been one of the people afraid of crickets and the pinworms . I just requested the PDF of the article you made reference to. I am afraid much of it will be beyond my comprehension but I will try to read it. Ed in your study's has a source of the pinworms surfaced . Thank you mythbusting the crickets as the source of pinworms.


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Andrew, Judy is giving excellent advice . Throw those cultures out at the 25-30 day mark and the odors are minimal. I recently picked up some of the methylparaben from Josh's frogs and add less than half a level tspn. to a fresh mix for eight cultures of Hydei fruit flies and the odor is absolutely none existent in the 30 day window.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Darrell--at one point I was raising crickets, bean beetles, ffs, isopods, springtails and dubia roaches...in my bathroom....talk about a tolerant husband.... A lot of things Ed posts are WAY over most of our heads, but he is willing and able to give references as our experiences are purely anecdotal. There are several people here on DB who are the "grey beards" --they have been in on this hobby since it became a hobby...you will come across their names in older forums as they have left behind this body of information for us to learn from... my thanks to those people....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Darrell S said:


> Ed, Thank you. I have always been one of the people afraid of crickets and the pinworms . I just requested the PDF of the article you made reference to. I am afraid much of it will be beyond my comprehension but I will try to read it. Ed in your study's has a source of the pinworms surfaced . Thank you mythbusting the crickets as the source of pinworms.


Actually it demonstrates that crickets are not the source of the pinworms. 

The thing that the hobby keeps ignoring when perpetuating this myth is the biology of pinworms (oxyurids). For example the following chain would be required for a anuran pinworm (which won't infect reptiles) first an anuran would have to gain access to the cultures. Second, the frog has to deposit a fecal where it can be consumed by the crickets. Third the cricket has to be fed to a frog or toad before it excretes the pinworms (as anuran pinworms cannot encyst or parasitize the cricket). The cricket would have excreted the pinworms before they ever reach the pet store or you (12 hour gut turnover time so even overnight shipping solves this problem). This also ignores the fact that the eggs are not resistant to drying out so that would require that the fecal not dry out before it is consumed by the crickets. And that is required for a frog/toad pinworm species to be transmitted in this way. A lizard, snake, turtle, etc pinworm would require the contamination in the same way so it becomes incredibly unlikely for that kind of infection to persist. 

As for the claim that the animal was negative on a fecal check, this ignores a fact of fecal surveillance in that a negative fecal only tells you that nothing was detected so the animal cannot be deemed to be free of parasites. Only a positive fecal provides any direct information as to the parasite status. It is very common for the immune system to keep a parasite in check until something happens to cause suppression of the immune function. 

Another thing this myth ignores is the needed biosecurity to successfully produce large amounts of crickets. One of the biggest risks to crickets is that viruses such as the cricket paralysis virus or arthropod iridoviruses will get into the farm. More than a few companies have had significant losses to these kinds of viruses including more than one company going out of business. If they were regularly getting the kind of contamination required for pinworms to get into a few crickets then they are going to lose a lot of crickets due to disease. 

Finally in more than a few animals that consume fiberous materials, pinworms can aid in digestion by helping to break up fiber and enhances the production of short chain fatty acids (which are important nutritionally). It is only when they get out of hand does it become an issue. 

The most probable route of infection is consumption of eggs shed in the cage, followed by the owner/caretaker spreading them from cage to cage due to insufficient hygiene between cages. 

This is why when someone tells you that crickets carry pinworms you can be sure that they have no bleeping idea what they are talking about. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

" they have no bleeping idea what they are talking about".

---quote from Ed...made me laugh......and I'm so relieved to read that pinworms have a good side.......


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Okay, so here is the deal. I am now planning to culture my flies and have two questions. 1: I know there is a myriad of fruit fly recipes out there but has anyone tried the Cheerios and Cornmeal media? I got it from here.
2. I also know there is a myriad of options for surface area but wonder if anyone ever used regular knitting yarn? I was thinking of maybe squishing it into a ball. I haven't heard of it before but was just wondering. Thanks!


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Ed. Thank you. For many years I believed in the dangers of crickets because of pin worms thanks to a pet store employee misinforming me .

Andrew. You will find many recipes that will grow fruit flies. Some recipes are simple and others are very complex . You will find a lot of info on different success stories if you try to get familiar with the search function . I personally use Repashy who also sells some great supplements . If you have read of a recipe that sounds good to you then don't hesitate to try to pm the person that has posted it. Most people here will respond with tips on how to get their recipe to work. I have found that for me if the mixture is real thick so the scoop of it wont fall off the spoon as I'm making new cultures then it wont liquefy to bad when the maggots consume it. But sometimes I do have to mist the culture if it gets too dry before the 30 day mark. I live in Texas and the humidity affects the moisture of my cultures. I use the plastic gutter guard screen sold at lowes . I cut one square for each culture . The cost is low and the screen does not have any effect on moisture .


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Andrew...I have used a couple of different media...but if you start out with one that has been "proven" to work...you will have flies in all probability...once you get to understand how to make them...then experiment with other formulas--but keep making cultures that you know will work...that way you will not be left with NO flies... The only way I was able to have any success at the beginning was to use distilled water...and to figure out where to keep the flies... Once you get the hang of it, it is pretty easy--just be consistent.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed, what are your thoughts on crickets being disease vectors for coccidia?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> Ed, what are your thoughts on crickets being disease vectors for coccidia?


For coccidians again you would need to have the crickets consuming the contaminated fecal and then being fed to the consuming animal before gut turnover can occur. Again reptile coccidians don't infect amphibians, mice coccidians don't infect reptiles or amphibians and insect coccidians can't infect reptiles, amphibians, fish, or mammals and so forth. There is also some specificity within groups as not all frog or toads are susceptible to the same coccidians which if you think about it makes it even more difficult for an infection to be transmitted via crickets (and the same holds for reptiles ...) 

(Keep in mind that I'm assuming that the vet tech can differentiate between coccidians that can and do infect crickets versus all of the taxa that infect vertebrates). 

If someone is claiming their frog etc was infected via crickets I'd be highly suspicious for the above reasons and that amphibians that have been treated for coccidians don't actually clear the parasite but simply remain asymptomatic and this has been proven at necropsy. Now there is some indication that previously incurable coccidans in bearded dragons (cryptosporidia ssp) can be cleared with Ponazuril so we have some hope for the frogs in the future. Keep in mind that a study is needed after treating with Ponazuril in the form of a necropsy with histopathology to make sure that it is as effective on the amphibian coccidians (part of this is because in reptiles you can't treat some highly infectious coccidians (like cryptosporidia serpentis) with a wide number of medications that work on other coccidians.


Some comments 

Ed


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

I also use Repashy FF media. I store my cultures in a 66 qt Sterilite container. The lid sits loose on top (over the handles) to allow for some air exchange. In the container, I put about 1-1.5" of diatomaceous earth (I buy mine at a pool store). Since they are flightless, any flies that get loose get caught in the DE and don't make it out. These cultures don't have much of a smell and the lid makes it unnoticeable. Hope this helps to convince your mom to let you try and culture at home.


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice guys! Will be culturing them at school with teacher's permission due to the fact that she also needs them for genetic experiments.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

wonderful!!! Let us know from time to time how you are doing with that...your observations will be interesting!


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## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

Sure! Will create another post!


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Here's some tips I've learned

Shipped cultures are the absolute worst. Worse than Petco. I've never received a shipped culture that produced well or lasted very long.

Depending on where you live it's going to be hard to get cultures shipped consistently due to weather.

Transfer flies over a sink. Any escapees can be washed down the drain.

Use "mite paper" the insecticide kills FFs too. You can also make FF traps.

DE is also a good mite and FF escapee control method that is chemical free.

The bottom line - you should either find someone locally that can supply your cultures and at least cover their cost or make your own.

It's very easy to make your own and NEHERP offers great kits that last a long time. I use about half the media on the package directions and the cultures last almost exactly one month. This allows me to get two times the cultures from the kit with almost no waste.


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## OrangeD (Oct 8, 2015)

If you are looking or FF cultures locally try Reptile Island in Yorba Linda. They have both hydei and melangaster cultures for $10. They also have a store in Stanton that also sells cultures.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

another side note, a lot of flies do die during transit. 

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

The diatomaceous earth from pool stores is dangerous... Look it up folks there's a few threads that discuss this...



chillplants said:


> In the container, I put about 1-1.5" of diatomaceous earth (I buy mine at a pool store).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> The diatomaceous earth from pool stores is dangerous... Look it up folks there's a few threads that discuss this...


Don't snort it. 

Add to the container and wear a dust mask. If there is more concern add it to the container outside while wearing a dust mask. Its not a problem as long as you don't disturb it up into the air, snort or eat it. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Wow, that's a pretty cynical and uneducated response... Surprising to say the least. Its very easy to disturb it into the air and breath... It causes lung cancer... 

I once warned a person selling it at a reptile show who had no idea of its dangers and told me his girlfriend likes to sprinkle it all over the place... Outside not such a big deal but inside getting it on the carpet being shot back into the air vacuuming etc etc. Yes its a big deal...

People who use it for its intended purpose seem to have way more respect for it than people around here...

Don't know about you but keeping fruit flies clear of mites is not worth risking the daily breathing of asbestos like particles into my lungs. Even if its just a few per day.

But thanks for this less than polite response for just wanting to pass some information along that could keep people from getting unnecessarily sick.

I'm actually really surprised this came from someone like yourself.



Ed said:


> Don't snort it.
> 
> Add to the container and wear a dust mask. If there is more concern add it to the container outside while wearing a dust mask. Its not a problem as long as you don't disturb it up into the air, snort or eat it.
> 
> ...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

You also forgot to mention that there is a safer version... Not sold in pool stores...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> Wow, that's a pretty cynical and uneducated response... Surprising to say the least. Its very easy to disturb it into the air and breath... It causes lung cancer...


Actually I know a lot more about it than you suspect, hence my comments. Yes there are risks as the pool grade is calcined but the risk of DE from "food" grade is pretty much the same so ... There are many things that cause lung cancers and there is a wide variation in risks. As an example, you shouldn't change your own brake pads or remove the tires to expose them. The reason asbestos is still used in the manufacture of the pads and the brakes cause dust to buildup which can be aerosolized once the pads are accessed ... 



cam1941 said:


> I once warned a person selling it at a reptile show who had no idea of its dangers and told me his girlfriend likes to sprinkle it all over the place... Outside not such a big deal but inside getting it on the carpet being shot back into the air vacuuming etc etc. Yes its a big deal...


And if the person uses a hepa filter on their vacuum cleaner? Or as I noted minimize disturbances and utilize a dust mask? 



cam1941 said:


> People who use it for its intended purpose seem to have way more respect for it than people around here...


You mean like the bags of it sold to aquarists for finely filtering aquariums or sold to hobby winemakers to use in sedimenting wines? Or those who consume it as an antiparasitic? 



cam1941 said:


> Don't know about you but keeping fruit flies clear of mites is not worth risking the daily breathing of asbestos like particles into my lungs. Even if its just a few per day.


As I noted above then your going to want to avoid the beach (any beach), anything that stirs up soil in the form of dust as well as many other environments. stop working on your car, avoid breathing the air at the mechanics if/when you take a care in for service ... This is before we get into the concerns about nanoparticulates from vehicle exhausts or things like formadehyde released from various materials in a home or apartment. Oh, I almost forgot, if you eat peanut butter you may want to stop if your that cancer risk averse as it contains aflatoxins which are the most potent carcinogens known at this time. 



cam1941 said:


> But thanks for this less than polite response for just wanting to pass some information along that could keep people from getting unnecessarily sick.


Yes you skewed the risk of the pool DE and didn't offer any basic suggestions on how to reduce/avoid concerns with it hence my response, just a vague warning. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> You also forgot to mention that there is a safer version... Not sold in pool stores...


Actually you were the one who "forgot" to mention it when you made the vague warning about pool DE. And for the record, you may want to review the real literature on the risk of inhalation for any DE before you go and label one safer than the other. 

As for the overall risk, you are aware that the risk of cancer and other damage is dose dependent over time? Small random exposures are highly unlikely to cause problems and that a few particulates stirred up by a vacuum cleaner are highly unlikely to cause lung problems particularly if a hepa filter is used and/or dust masks etc. Or you could simply wipe it up with a damp cloth or rag. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

I said to look up other threads on the subject btw… I’m really impressed by your wealth of knowledge on this matter but the facts are this…

Bringing a known finely powdered carcinogen into an enclosed space like your home and spreading it around is really stupid… Especially when you know better LoL Are you aware of the Darwin awards?

I’ve used that garbage for a pool filter before and used a mask (outside). Every time I would disturb the opening of the bag a small cloud of dust would go into the air. I cannot believe people bring that garbage inside while having ridiculous fears of the dreaded “chemicals”.

I imagine that is what caused your response in the first place. Denial... It must be tough for you to hear people reminding you how stupid it is to bring a finely powdered carcinogen into your home… I imagine that the dissonance created would be extreme LoL

Thank you for admitting that the “food grade” (don’t eat it Ed) is basically the same thing, I have had people try to tell me its organic and hence not as dangerous LoL




Ed said:


> Actually I know a lot more about it than you suspect, hence my comments. Yes there are risks as the pool grade is calcined but the risk of DE from "food" grade is pretty much the same so ... There are many things that cause lung cancers and there is a wide variation in risks. As an example, you shouldn't change your own brake pads or remove the tires to expose them. The reason asbestos is still used in the manufacture of the pads and the brakes cause dust to buildup which can be aerosolized once the pads are accessed ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Source (Dec 11, 2015)

, , , , , ,


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Chronic exposure causes cancer... You know like breathing it every time you feed your frogs... 



Ed said:


> Actually you were the one who "forgot" to mention it when you made the vague warning about pool DE. And for the record, you may want to review the real literature on the risk of inhalation for any DE before you go and label one safer than the other.
> 
> As for the overall risk, you are aware that the risk of cancer and other damage is dose dependent over time? Small random exposures are highly unlikely to cause problems and that a few particulates stirred up by a vacuum cleaner are highly unlikely to cause lung problems particularly if a hepa filter is used and/or dust masks etc. Or you could simply wipe it up with a damp cloth or rag.
> 
> ...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I am somewhat familiar with DE and know that it is used with plants, as a wormer for some animals, and in chicken houses for the chickens to dry bathe themselves...also realize that there is a difference between the pool type, and the kind sold in petshops & garden places. On the directions it clearly states that a dust mask should be used...I would think that putting it into a Sterilite type container which is occasionally opened would not be that hazardous...just knowing how to use it properly should be sufficient...personally I would not worry about using it at all...my 2 cents...


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## dow (Sep 14, 2015)

While this has nothing to do with growing FF's, I found the following to be very interesting:
Diatomaceous Earth General Fact Sheet
It was published by the National Pesticide Information Center in 2013. According to their webpage,


> NPIC provides objective, science-based information about pesticides and pesticide-related topics to enable people to make informed decisions about pesticides and their use. NPIC is a cooperative agreement between Oregon State University and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.


About NPIC

Another interesting article from the State of Oregon Department of Environmental Quality can be found here:
http://www.deq.state.or.us/er/docs/LowerBridge/DiatomaceousEarthFactSheet.pdf

Additionally, OSHA's memorandum on labeling of Diatomaceous Earth can be found here:
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=22720&p_table=INTERPRETATIONS


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Cam1941, why are you not harping on other threads where keepers are handling, storing, and using Airstone or LECA drainage layers, as these produce fine particles, and their bags are typically labeled as being a inhalation and cancer risk? What about everyone that has used redart or bentonite clay in their substrate/backgrounds? What about the silica dust that can come about from cutting/sanding glass for building enclosures? What about the calcium carbonate, and other mineral powders that would be present in various supplements that you likely use most of the time you feed your frogs?


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Judy the point is that I agree with you… If the product is respected it can be used properly… I only comment on this when people show that they do not know what DE is. That is when its dangerous.

I personally would never use it inside my house where I and others could be exposed to it on a regular basis… I was not preaching this just warning of potential dangers.

Like I said before the guy at the reptile show that I informed of its dangers had no idea that he needed to be careful with it and he was SELLING it! Do you think his customers were aware that the product needed to be treated with respect? Do you think people should sell potentially dangerous items when they are not aware of the danger? That is when I realized that people use this crap without knowing what it is. 

I was simply letting someone know that they should do some research before getting to comfortable with it.





Judy S said:


> I am somewhat familiar with DE and know that it is used with plants, as a wormer for some animals, and in chicken houses for the chickens to dry bathe themselves...also realize that there is a difference between the pool type, and the kind sold in petshops & garden places. On the directions it clearly states that a dust mask should be used...I would think that putting it into a Sterilite type container which is occasionally opened would not be that hazardous...just knowing how to use it properly should be sufficient...personally I would not worry about using it at all...my 2 cents...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

This is great, hopefully this stupidity will have one bright side... Anyone who didn't know anything about DE will now know it should be treated with respect.



dow said:


> While this has nothing to do with growing FF's, I found the following to be very interesting:
> Diatomaceous Earth General Fact Sheet
> It was published by the National Pesticide Information Center in 2013. According to their webpage,
> About NPIC
> ...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks for this info, I was not aware of any of the things you mentioned here. Wasn't trying to harp. Just letting someone know who seemed unaware. I knew this was an unpopular topic but had no idea it was this bad. 

I personally don't use any of these products but in general I'm am careful with any powders. I use powdered stains for painting and have never been told they are dangerous but I treat them with care because breathing anything but air should be avoided if possible. I certainly don't keep any powders in open containers out in the open in my home. 



Dane said:


> Cam1941, why are you not harping on other threads where keepers are handling, storing, and using Airstone or LECA drainage layers, as these produce fine particles, and their bags are typically labeled as being a inhalation and cancer risk? What about everyone that has used redart or bentonite clay in their substrate/backgrounds? What about the silica dust that can come about from cutting/sanding glass for building enclosures? What about the calcium carbonate, and other mineral powders that would be present in various supplements that you likely use most of the time you feed your frogs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> Chronic exposure causes cancer... You know like breathing it every time you feed your frogs...


I think you should look up chronic exposure. As I noted above and was well clarified by the links posted Dow. You need to have long-term exposure before you have to really worry about it as a carcinogen and that is before we get to the point that it is also dose dependent. 

The precautions needed to work with it are minimal and not exactly the risk your presenting which is why I suggested to read the actual literature on it instead of using internet gossip to determine the risk. This is why I pointed out all of the things above that result in carcinogens being brought into the home and I didn't even try to make it comprehensive. If you think the small amounts of the pool DE are that big of a risk then you should find the risk of eating peanut butter unacceptable, or working on your own car brakes or even entering a automotive or mechanics shop. 

Why haven't you been screaming about the risk of polyurethane before it has dried?? That is a much more common and riskier carcinogen than the DE ...


Some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Most importantly anyone reading this needs to decide the risks they want to take with their health for themselves.

Don't be a mindless follower like some of these people count on to feel important. Lots of followers around here, don't be one...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Ed said:


> I think you should look up chronic exposure. As I noted above and was well clarified by the links posted Dow. You need to have long-term exposure before you have to really worry about it as a carcinogen and that is before we get to the point that it is also dose dependent.


I did actually and work and home are the two worst places for chronic exposure. Dows links do not discredit my claims… Read them again.



Ed said:


> The precautions needed to work with it are minimal and not exactly the risk your presenting which is why I suggested to read the actual literature on it instead of using internet gossip to determine the risk.


This claim is false. I was informed of its dangers from someone who works with it everyday and takes its risks seriously. The funny part is that you expose yourself to it far more than he does and he’s getting paid LoL. You shouldn’t make childish assumptions. As far as precautions, if you are not aware of DE’s dangers you are unlikely to take precautions. That’s the point, many people don’t know the dangers. 



Ed said:


> If you think the small amounts of the pool DE are that big of a risk then you should find the risk of eating peanut butter unacceptable, or working on your own car brakes or even entering a automotive or mechanics shop.


I don’t eat peanut butter but was unaware of any risk, so thanks. I don’t attack people who are trying to inform me. I don’t work on my breaks and I don’t work in a mechanics garage. 



Ed said:


> Why haven't you been screaming about the risk of polyurethane before it has dried?? That is a much more common and riskier carcinogen than the DE


Was never screaming, more childishness… Didn’t know about polyurethane never used it in conjunction with this hobby. More changing of the subject…


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Cam....I think you are getting a little over the top, and taking comments too personally...I sell chemicals in the spring for Harry Homeowner, so I DO understand how people just do not pay attention to directions--which is why I am there...We have to start to take responsibility for our own lives, and if people don't...Ed is not to blame...the guy selling the stuff isn't either...we HAVE to read..people come in and never wonder why dust masks are right next to the DE...they want to just kill everything...everything.... Do you know people's houses blow up because they don't read to turn of pilot lights on their stoves/furnace when using certain chemicals? Forget about breathing the stuff...


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Completely disagree with this Judy, you should go back and read the thread... I was simply reminding someone of the potential danger who did not seem informed. 

Ed's comment was completely unnecessary as what I wrote was not misinformation. It was simply a reminder for that person to go do some research.

As for the rest of what you wrote I have no idea how it applies as I never suggested Ed or anybody else was responsible for anybody LoL I appreciate your concern but Ed's a big boy he should speak for himself... Unless of course he asked you to speak on his behalf LoL





Judy S said:


> Cam....I think you are getting a little over the top, and taking comments too personally...I sell chemicals in the spring for Harry Homeowner, so I DO understand how people just do not pay attention to directions--which is why I am there...We have to start to take responsibility for our own lives, and if people don't...Ed is not to blame...the guy selling the stuff isn't either...we HAVE to read..people come in and never wonder why dust masks are right next to the DE...they want to just kill everything...everything.... Do you know people's houses blow up because they don't read to turn of pilot lights on their stoves/furnace when using certain chemicals? Forget about breathing the stuff...


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## dow (Sep 14, 2015)

Not to change the subject or anything, but...

*So, Andrew Lee, how's your fruit fly project going?*


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Had to chuckle...I would never try to speak for Ed...I can hardly understand what he says any way...just trying to suggest that anyone who uses anything for any purpose should take it seriously and read directions...this thread has gone way beyond being useful...and of course you can disagree...

P.S. I did go back and read the whole thread...back to post 22 and more--the wheel fell off somewhere when personalities got involved...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> I did actually and work and home are the two worst places for chronic exposure.


Where the exposure happens isn't relevant as to what chronic exposure means. Chronic exposure is exposure over time which in this case is only part of the story. The second part of the story is how long it stays suspended and the person is breathing the suspended silica crystals. To exceed the levels recommended by OSHA, you'd need a lot more in the air and a longer exposure than the suggested parameters for accessing the fruit flies. The material isn't going to be forming great clouds in the air unless the person is really throwing it around ... and this is provided that the people aren't using any safety protocols like dust masks. 



cam1941 said:


> This claim is false. I was informed of its dangers from someone who works with it everyday and takes its risks seriously. The funny part is that you expose yourself to it far more than he does and he’s getting paid LoL. You shouldn’t make childish assumptions. As far as precautions, if you are not aware of DE’s dangers you are unlikely to take precautions. That’s the point, many people don’t know the dangers.


Dude really? I spent more than a little time as a R&D chemist in a research facility dedicated to silicates (including both forms of DE (calcined and uncalcined) and zeolites before I had my opportunity to switch careers. I spent all of that time working with and on those materials ... so I'm pretty aware of the risks and the preventative measures.

As for the dangers what did you offer in the explanation of risks or preventative measures. You told people to search threads on it. That doesn't do anything to indicate risk or danger from a material. 



cam1941 said:


> Was never screaming, more childishness… Didn’t know about polyurethane never used it in conjunction with this hobby. More changing of the subject…


Actually you are screaming. You may not be typing in capitals but your doing your best to make a substance out to be a much greater risk than it really is .... 

There are risks to virtually anything in life and many of them can/do result in the risk of cancers. Many cancers are caused by things that cause inflammation (including silicates). So to quote an old professor of mine "It is possible to cause anal cancer by using cheap toilet paper if it irritates that region when used". Does this mean that people should stop wiping their rear end? 

Well its clear that to some extent this is a worthless discussion as its clear your out to try and antagonize me but it was important to address the vague information. 

I'm going to walk away from this discussion now, you you can feel free to have the last word. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

So now I have to worry about the cheap toilet paper I buy....damn


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Ed I have nothing to gain from antagonizing you. I respect your opinion on most topics and you provide a wealth of information for this board. My first comment wasn’t directed at you and it was you who antagonized me. 

My whole point from the beginning is that there are many people that use DE that don’t take any precautions because they think its completely safe. When I see those people in life or on here I feel the need to tell them and will continue to do so. 

Some how me trying to inform someone offended you and you lashed out with a snide comment which was meant to discredit what I was saying. I’m assuming you heard this so much it gets annoying, I don’t know, but the truth is some people still need to hear this. 

I hope everyone who is using it now knows. Wear a mask, respect what it is, don’t spread it around freely on your shelves or around your vivs. Yes people do this…


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

*So... Back to helping the OP with their affordable fruit fly questions...*

Seriously though... If anyone feels the need, please start another thread about DE if you want. No need to further derail this one.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Amen. 

Andrew Lee, do you have any more questions about fruit flies? I personally think culturing your own would be cheapest, easiest, and best for all intents and purposes, you'll just have to show your mom how it isn't invasive, but of course you can still ship them in if you ao desire, nothing wrong with that, just watch out for mites. Or, here's a novel idea, maybe try and have a friend culture them and you pay them? Heck I'd do it if my friend asked.

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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