# Clay Stations



## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

I've used calcium bearing clay substrates in vivs for several years, and recently started culturing my springtails on clay (as described in previous threads). I also got my first pumilio this past spring, so I'm having fun figuring out ways to get supplemental nutrition to small offspring. 

Enter calcium bearing clay feeding/soaking stations:

https://youtu.be/axnoPqY6ctw

I used small containers, roughly the size of film canisters, as cultures. I spread a very thin layer of clay in them because there's not much room to spare, seeded them with temperate white springtails, and fed active dry yeast. It took 1 month for them to be booming with various sized springtails. 

I can now place the opened containers in the leaf litter of vivaria to serve as feeding and belly patch bathing stations. Once they are nearly emptied of springtails, I can remove them, refeed, and wait for a reboom. They seem to bounce back much faster than compared to initial start up. 

I've only been deploying these for a couple weeks, but I've seen the pumilio babies actively congregated and foraging at the mouth the container. And the adults. 

Some bullet points: 

*I think the risk of clay impaction is an important subject and should not be quickly dismissed. Interrogation of new methods is good. I do not maintain constant access to these clay-loaded springtails. 

*I also keep small cubes of Repashy Bug Burger in the pumilio viv (and thumbnail grow outs) as a means of gut loading microfauna and fly maggots. 

*In the pumilio viv, the adults can claim these small cups as their own. In fact, the male keeps going inside them and calling. 

*I wouldn't cross contaminate different vivaria with the same container (remember that I'm reusing/refreshing them), but I worry about creating a parasite hot-spot where the frogs eliminate and feed in the same spot for extended periods. I hope for feedback regarding this possible issue.


Also, I've spent the last 38 minutes trying to figure out how to embed video in vBulletin.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

On parasite hot spots: I think it might be interesting to consider the life cycle of the more likely parasites and pathogens, and possibly exclude some of them from the worry list if they wouldn't be transmitted through the stations (or time the reintroduction of the stations so to break the life cycles). 

You say that these are also intended as "belly patch bathing stations" -- are the frogs drinking from these cups? 

Are you seeing contamination of the stations by other species of microfauna picked up in the viv? I've read that polycultures of microfauna tend to become instead experiments in microfauna competition.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> On parasite hot spots: I think it might be interesting to consider the life cycle of the more likely parasites and pathogens, and possibly exclude some of them from the worry list if they wouldn't be transmitted through the stations (or time the reintroduction of the stations so to break the life cycles).
> 
> You say that these are also intended as "belly patch bathing stations" -- are the frogs drinking from these cups?
> 
> Are you seeing contamination of the stations by other species of microfauna picked up in the viv? I've read that polycultures of microfauna tend to become instead experiments in microfauna competition.


Regarding the clay bathing; 
I got the idea from @Tij. I’ve put moistened clay baths in a few vivs, and every frog I keep seems to soak in the mud. I have no clue where I got the term “belly patch,” lol. Probably something silly I thought of and now it’s stuck in my head as a real term. 

Here’s a quick quote from Tijl’s O.H.Bullseye thread:


Tijl said:


> The frogs take in the (ions in the) minerals of the clay trought their skin. Apperently ara's and elpephants also eat this clay according to a recent article that appeared in the DNmagazine.
> 
> I added a clayfilled dish in my terribilis tank today, but so far they have not used it. I will monitor the for a while now. If they don't use it, I will add the dish to my escudo.


Regarding contamination of monocultures; 
I think one of the benefits of clay springtails cultures is that other bugs don’t seem to thrive in it. I’m only on my second generation of springs within a used culture, but I haven’t seen any problems. 

Also, I wondered if the diversity of the biofilm on the clay gets a boost from being in the viv, which might explain why the population seems to bounce back so quickly compared to a fresh “sterile” starter. There could also be eggs and tiny nymphs in what I’m calling “empty” used cultures, giving the illusion of a quick population recovery.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Broseph said:


> Regarding the clay bathing;
> I got the idea from @Tij. I’ve put moistened clay baths in a few vivs, and every frog I keep seems to soak in the mud. I have no clue where I got the term “belly patch,” lol. Probably something silly I thought of and now it’s stuck in my head as a real term.


Actually, I thought the 'bathing' part was the funny part (made me think of a bird bath ). Frogs do drink through a patch of specialized skin on their belly -- so yes, real term -- and I was asking if the frogs were actually appearing to spend time on the clay doing just that. Cool that they do; it suggests that just the clay provision itself might be useful. I recall reading about providing clay stations in ABG-based vivs, but I thought the usefulness of this was at best inconclusive, and at worst a big mess. I'd enjoy learning more about recent thoughts about this.

Interesting idea about the biofilm, too -- it makes intuitive sense.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Broseph said:


> *I think the risk of clay impaction is an important subject and should not be quickly dismissed. Interrogation of new methods is good. I do not maintain constant access to these clay-loaded springtails.


The other consideration and main concern with regards to encouraging frogs, and particularly young frogs, to eat springtails that have been unnaturally induced to consume large amounts of clay is the nutrient binding effects of the clay.
People should consider the fact that springtails and particularly folsomia candida have never been documented to naturally consume clay to this extent and that the potential for issues from nutrient binding in animal guts is very well documented. 
The idea of microfauna in the viviarium being passively exposed to clay substrate layers as a mineral source makes perfect sense to me and I've incorporated various clays in many of my builds but I think this trend for inducing springtails to consume clay will prove ill advised in the long run.


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## N. Veen (Aug 26, 2020)

Louis said:


> The other consideration and main concern with regards to encouraging frogs, and particularly young frogs, to eat springtails that have been unnaturally induced to consume large amounts of clay is the nutrient binding effects of the clay.
> People should consider the fact that springtails and particularly folsomia candida have never been documented to naturally consume clay to this extent and that the potential for issues from nutrient binding in animal guts is very well documented.
> The idea of microfauna in the viviarium being passively exposed to clay substrate layers as a mineral source makes perfect sense to me and I've incorporated various clays in many of my builds but I think this trend for inducing springtails to consume clay will prove ill advised in the long run.



Besides, if i check out the video on youtube. I am not really impresed with the amount off animals in the culture really.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> ... and at worst a big mess.


The bigger frogs definitely track some clay around. It's not enough to make a mess, but it has served as a semi effective sphagnumicide in the area immediately surrounding the baths.



Louis said:


> The other consideration and main concern with regards to encouraging frogs, and particularly young frogs, to eat springtails that have been unnaturally induced to consume large amounts of clay is the nutrient binding effects of the clay.
> People should consider the fact that springtails and particularly folsomia candida have never been documented to naturally consume clay to this extent and that the potential for issues from nutrient binding in animal guts is very well documented.
> The idea of microfauna in the viviarium being passively exposed to clay substrate layers as a mineral source makes perfect sense to me and I've incorporated various clays in many of my builds but I think this trend for inducing springtails to consume clay will prove ill advised in the long run.


Yeah. My only argument with what you're saying is that we don't know how much clay the springtails are actually consuming. I think the only evidence provided (on dendroboard) for clay consumption by F. candida is that they appear red colored against a white background, and they excavate texture into the clay media. 

My gut feeling is that they're not really consuming much clay. I may be wrong. 

Also, it's only supplemental to their total diet- I mentioned I also keep Bug Burger bait stations in the pumilio viv, which are hot spots for all manner of microfauna and fly maggots. And I only have Bastimentos right now- which morph out pretty big and are probably (hopefully) taking stunted melanogaster.



N. Veen said:


> Besides, if i check out the video on youtube. I am not really impresed with the amount off animals in the culture really.


Soil cultures are probably better for total production. Better than charcoal. Better than clay. The advantage to the non soil methods is ease of harvest.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Broseph said:


> The bigger frogs definitely track some clay around. It's not enough to make a mess, but it has served as a semi effective sphagnumicide in the area immediately surrounding the baths.


I should have been more clear. What I recall reading is that augmenting ABG with calcium bearing clay has the effect of negatively affecting the performance of the ABG in terms of drainage, longevity, and like aspects. 

Here's an example: https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how-8.html#post3095634

I don't mind little froggy footprints all over , though the issue with the moss might be concerning. I wonder if putting the stations in a leaf-litter zone might help alleviate that problem -- a wipe your feet on the mat sort of set up.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I would so much like the term "impaction" to be retired from online discussion.Thats not always whats happening with ingested foreign material and agents.

Its pretty easy to flush out a tract of an invert. I do it as a routine.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If you have really useful benefits, like a clean easy cull, yet there are unknowns, per some use scenarios (new froglets in relatively austere grow out containers, mainstay fed Springs) why not just add a little step to neutralize the unknown? Put the springs in a cup overnight with some normal food, the transparency of their bodies makes it a visual no brainer. Red to Green. Viola.

Being enamored with the mineral content of the clay is just that - an ideological attraction. It has been proven, solidly, that new froglets can flourish with standard supplementation. 

Its the novel dominance of so much ingested clay per proxy, to very new and tiny froglets, a cup with some morning wood etc, as a precautionary, whats the big deal?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I am interested in the outcome here. I think Broseph knows what he is doing well enough to recognize problems associated with this approach. There has been speculation that ingestion of springtails gutloaded with clay might be problematic, but no proof either way. I am sure Broseph will discontinue the experiment if it proves to be a problem. The fact that many of us, including me, have sources of clay in some of our tanks that also contain springtails leads me to believe that this experiment has been ongoing for a long time without any reported (to my knowledge) detrimental effects. Admittedly, when clay is provided in the tank, other environments and food sources are also provided but I can't imagine that clay isn't being ingested by the springtails along with other foods. So, while the concentrations aren't the same, clay in the diet of frogs has been present to some extent in a lot of people's tanks for a long time. I don't think the risk is quite as high as some folks in this thread and others have made it out to be, but I am also speculating. I also agree with Kmc that feeding alternate food before presenting to the froglets could mitigate some of the risk. There is no doubt that the clay production method for springtails can produce many more springtails than I do in my charcoal cultures, so if it is safe to feed these guys to froglets, I would probably switch just for production reasons.

Again, I am interested in seeing what happens. Thanks for sharing your results, Broseph.

Mark


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