# Crested Geckos & Dart Frogs



## tasteslikechicken

I did do some searches first but didn't find anything really exclusive to this discussion. 

My understanding is that most people don't think these two can be housed together under any circumstance. The conditions for both are pretty similar so I'm interested to know exactly why living together would be bad for either or both species. 

I'm specifically looking at housing a pair of leucs with probably a pair of cresties. My plan is to add the cresties down the road when the leucs are older and they and the system is very established. I'm in the process of working tiers and ledges into the background/sides with locations for crested food (Repashy) and hiding. The goal being to somewhat stratify the tank with the crested on the walls or other higher structures. 

So what are your thoughts/experiences?
Thanks!


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## HunterB

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38351-can-i-mix-reptiles-my-d-auratus.html


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## tasteslikechicken

HunterB said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/38351-can-i-mix-reptiles-my-d-auratus.html


I think I read that thread. It talks a little about anoles and chameleons and some life span issues. It also reiterates the "why would you want to mix" ideology. I understand a lot of you are purists, and I respect that, but I haven't heard a concrete reason why they wouldn't work.

The most solid statements are that it is possible that a gecko might bite at the frogs. Obviously I plan on monitoring the situation daily for any aggression/stressers/etc. and mitigate if needed.


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## ggazonas

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Cresteds and darts are from two different continents and need two completely different environments. Also crested will most likely kill the darts, considering adult size SVL is 5-7 inches. Cresteds need plently of air circulation and only need humidity btw 50-80% thus not sufficeint enough for darts. Not enough air circulation will cause respiratatory infections in the geckos. I think the fact they come from two differnt enviroments and that the cresteds are large enough to either eat or seriously injure the darts is reason enough, well that and the fact that mixing is probably not a good idea.

Even a zoo exhibit wouldn't place these two species together.

If you really want to place geckos with darts try selected sphaerodactylus or phelsuma spp.


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## jackxc925

I have kept cresteds, and they get large. Because crested geckos are omnivorous they can eat fairly large food items, and will strike at moving targets including human hands. IME their jaws are more than enough to kill a pdf. The wet conditions of a PDF tank are problematic for cresteds, which can be afflicted by respiratory issues associated with too much humidity, and you would need a lot more than ledges to satisfy a crested. Also, crested geckos spend a lot of time on the ground. I can't see a gecko that maxes out at about 9'' getting along with even a large treefrog. 

Also, saying that you will monitor the situation doesn't really help anything when you watch your frogs get bitten. Or just stress out and die in a corner.


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## ggazonas

tasteslikechicken said:


> I think I read that thread. It talks a little about anoles and chameleons and some life span issues. It also reiterates the "why would you want to mix" ideology. I understand a lot of you are purists, and I respect that, but I haven't heard a concrete reason why they wouldn't work.
> 
> The most solid statements are that it is possible that a gecko might bite at the frogs. Obviously I plan on monitoring the situation daily for any aggression/stressers/etc. and mitigate if needed.


The geckos will attack the frogs gauranteed...once they are large enough cresteds can be pretty vicous when hunting. Albeit they are a calm and gentle species to handle, when they hunt though they are not. I have keep cresteds over 10 years and I give my adults full grown silk worms which measure 2-3 inches (average dart size) and they will thrash it back and forth in there mouth till it stops moving. Also i have had adult cresteds eat there babies.

I am strongly suggesting that you please do not mix these two species...it will eventually end up in one or the other species suffering....mostly likely resulting in death

If you really cared about these animals you would not mix them.


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## ggazonas

jackxc925 said:


> I have kept cresteds, and they get large. Because crested geckos are omnivorous they can eat fairly large food items, and will strike at moving targets including human hands. IME their jaws are more than enough to kill a pdf. The wet conditions of a PDF tank are problematic for cresteds, which can be afflicted by respiratory issues associated with too much humidity, and you would need a lot more than ledges to satisfy a crested. Also, crested geckos spend a lot of time on the ground. I can't see a gecko that maxes out at about 9'' getting along with even a large treefrog.
> 
> Also, saying that you will monitor the situation doesn't really help anything when you watch your frogs get bitten. Or just stress out and die in a corner.


Exactly what i am saying. 

Just the crested striking the pdf will be enough to throw the frog into a panic attack which could straight up kill it on the spot.


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## jackxc925

ggazonas said:


> The geckos will attack the frogs gauranteed...once they are large enough cresteds can be pretty vicous when hunting. Albeit they are a calm and gentle species to handle, when they hunt though they are not. I have keep cresteds over 10 years and I give my adults full grown silk worms which measure 2-3 inches (average dart size) and they will thrash it back and forth in there mouth till it stops moving. Also i have had adult cresteds eat there babies.
> 
> I am strongly suggesting that you please do not mix these two species...it will eventually end up in one or the other species suffering....mostly likely resulting in death


agreed to the fullest^


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## tasteslikechicken

I kinda figured everyone would hate this. Also didn't figure there was much harm in asking and trying to get as many thoughts as possible.

I've dealt with fish for years and the dogma that exists there (or really any animal hobby) can be pretty fierce. Sometimes you just have to take a gamble...I don't think there is any harm to that so long as you know the risks, that the risks are not outrageous, and that you take whatever precautions you can.



ggazonas said:


> Cresteds and darts are from two different continents and need two completely different environments. Also crested will most likely kill the darts, considering adult size SVL is 5-7 inches. Cresteds need plently of air circulation and only need humidity btw 50-80% thus not sufficeint enough for darts. Not enough air circulation will cause respiratatory infections in the geckos. I think the fact they come from two differnt enviroments and that the cresteds are large enough to either eat or seriously injure the darts is reason enough, well that and the fact that mixing is probably not a good idea.


IMO, cresties are a lot tougher and adaptable then that. Obviously if they come down with something or seem to be struggling I'd remove them.

About attacking the frogs- I'm not really sold. I think so long as the crested are well fed and not exposed to live foods they'll keep eating their crestie mush and leave a head-sized, warning colored frog alone. It's not worth the effort. I'd add the cresties as juveniles or obtain adults that have not been feed crickets to any great extent. No, it's not fail-safe that a given crested individual won't still have a high strike-drive, but your chances are much better.


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## jackxc925

I agree with you that cresteds can survive, but for an animal to thrive they should be in their natural niche, which does not include sopping wet 100% humidity. 

Contrary to what you might think, they are prone to respritory issues associated with too much humidity, and are commonly kept with 100% screen tops. 

I am familiar with cresteds, and so I know that cresteds can strike at any moving object without a reason. I have seen a large specimen eat a pinkie, it was well fed too. But given the chance, a crested gecko will attack anything, even something larger than itself. 

Crested geckos are unlikely to respond to warning patterns of dart frogs because they are primarily nocturnal and are not known for their vision. However, as those of us who have kept them know, they can be active at all hours of the day.

When you try to meet each animals needs half way, you will mostly likely end up with a half dead animal. Mixing the two species is a recipe for a sick crested and eaten or bitten frogs.


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## jubjub47

One other thing to worry about with mixing the two other than what has already been mentioned is that since the two are from two completely different parts of the world their immune systems may not be up for the task. Parasites and such that the geckos can deal with may be very fatal for the darts and visa versa. The stress to the frogs more so than the geckos may be enough to cause stress related immune problems and so forth as well. If you're going to risk it, at least give both animals a shot and use two different animals from similar environments.


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## ggazonas

tasteslikechicken said:


> I kinda figured everyone would hate this. Also didn't figure there was much harm in asking and trying to get as many thoughts as possible.
> 
> I've dealt with fish for years and the dogma that exists there (or really any animal hobby) can be pretty fierce. Sometimes you just have to take a gamble...I don't think there is any harm to that so long as you know the risks, that the risks are not outrageous, and that you take whatever precautions you can.
> 
> I think that death is an outrageous risk
> 
> 
> IMO, cresties are a lot tougher and adaptable then that. Obviously if they come down with something or seem to be struggling I'd remove them.
> 
> About attacking the frogs- I'm not really sold. I think so long as the crested are well fed and not exposed to live foods they'll keep eating their crestie mush and leave a head-sized, warning colored frog alone. It's not worth the effort. I'd add the cresties as juveniles or obtain adults that have not been feed crickets to any great extent. No, it's not fail-safe that a given crested individual won't still have a high strike-drive, but your chances are much better.


They will attack the frogs, like it has been said they will not notice the frogs warning colors and just strike. 
Again i have kept and bred cresteds for 10 years and i feed them excusively the crested gecko diet, supplementing with silkworms once or twice a month. Gievn that if they see a moving object that looks like food they will strike it.

Depsite that the crested are 3 times the size and they sleep in leaf litter. If they are continously moist they will get fungal and skin diseases. And for the frogs i would assume the substrate would be moist.

Also you'll have two creatures sharing the same living areas.


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## tasteslikechicken

I appreciate everyone's posts. It's about what I expected to hear- the cautious approach. I had hoped that some had actually tried it, but it seems I might be the first, or at least the first to post about on the internet.

It's not something that's going to happen any time soon if it does at all. I'm in the process of constructing the tank, so if there was anything that might significantly benefit or hinder a mixed tank, I'd obviously like to plan/build that now. For example, I'm building small bowls into the GS foam with cresties in mind. 

With fish- especially reef systems, you're always taking a little bit of a risk putting things together. Often even animals that should work, don't. (Derek if you're reading this, remember that A-hole yellow tang?) For most people there is a lot of weighing pro and cons usually based on the price/rarity of the fish/animal. No one wants the $10 fish to kill their $100 fish or coral- but it happens. It's a little OT, but at least with fish the individual plays a huge factor in every situation. For example some angels will eat your corals like they are potato chips and some don't give then a second look. Sometimes you just have to give it a try and just make sure you are prepared for the worst outcome. I guess that may seem harsh, but at least in the fish keeping world most people are pretty used to it.


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## Dragonfly

The sad part about this thread is that the OP seems willing to disregard the information provided in several serious responses not to mix crested geckos and pdfs. 

I have both and know how very vicious my male crested can be and he has no hesitation biting anyone in his territory except his mate. He readily draws blood. There isn't an adequate inbetween that would allow you to prevent the eating or at least biting to death of a frog vs crested gecko. The odds are you would only know about the event afterward finding a dead frog or frog parts.

If you have a male & female crested, you will have breeding and digging up and burying eggs. At that point, you will definitely see serious defending behaviors from the cresteds against any and all. They will not nicely say that the frogs are friends....

The other environmental factors alone are reasons enough to avoid this mix.

In fact, you may note that many crested keepers will not house 2 geckos together.


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## AzureFrog

tasteslikechicken said:


> With fish- especially reef systems, you're always taking a little bit of a risk putting things together. Often even animals that should work, don't. (Derek if you're reading this, remember that A-hole yellow tang?) For most people there is a lot of weighing pro and cons usually based on the price/rarity of the fish/animal. No one wants the $10 fish to kill their $100 fish or coral- but it happens. It's a little OT, but at least with fish the individual plays a huge factor in every situation. For example some angels will eat your corals like they are potato chips and some don't give then a second look. Sometimes you just have to give it a try and just make sure you are prepared for the worst outcome. I guess that may seem harsh, but at least in the fish keeping world most people are pretty used to it.


Most experienced fish keepers also know not to put aggressive fish and non-aggressive fish in the same tank... 

These experienced froggers are trying to tell you the same thing, please listen to their advice.

Peace
Shawn


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## Marinarawr

I feel that, regardless of whether a full grown crestie could ingest a full-sized leuc, given that crested geckos have those little teeth and PDFs have such delicate skin..... I think you see where I'm going with this. I sincerely believe that the chances are very good that you'll have at least one experience finding a frog with a head/back gash, a limb hanging by bone, or a disembowelment (leuc as the victim). I only kept Rhacs for 3 years but I got tagged more than a few times by irritable males, and one grouchy Isle E leachie... Another issue is the waste build-up. I think that a pair of R. ciliatus will overwhelm any set-up that isn't grossly over-sized with fecal matter and urates. Anyway... that's just my take on things .


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## tasteslikechicken

Dragonfly said:


> The sad part about this thread is that the OP seems willing to disregard the information provided in several serious responses not to mix crested geckos and pdfs.


I'm not disregarding, but I did somewhat anticipate this line of response. If I totally didn't care I wouldn't have posted anything.


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## tasteslikechicken

Marinarawr said:


> ... Another issue is the waste build-up. I think that a pair of R. ciliatus will overwhelm any set-up that isn't grossly over-sized with fecal matter and urates. Anyway... that's just my take on things .


See that's something I hadn't thought that much about. I'm always impressed with how much certain things can poop.


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## ChrisK

So the enclosure conditions will probably harm or kill the lizards and the lizards will probably harm or kill the frogs, and it's something you want to do....


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## jubjub47

The comparison to fish tanks is way off based. For the fish tanks you're still putting the fish in an environment that all of the fish can safely live in. Whether or not they are aggresive with each other is beside the point. 

In your situation you are wanting to put an animal in a habitat that is not adequate for the animal to survive properly and also has aggression issues. I could understand risking it if the aggression was the only issue, but your not even starting with proper housing for the inhabitants.


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## tasteslikechicken

jubjub47 said:


> The comparison to fish tanks is way off based. For the fish tanks you're still putting the fish in an environment that all of the fish can safely live in. Whether or not they are aggresive with each other is beside the point. .


Please, if you want a fight, dive into a GBR v americas v anythings talk do so- with someone else I really don't have the time.


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## jubjub47

First off I'm not trying to fight with you. 

Secondly, you are the one that chose to bring the question to the public and you're getting defensive because you're not getting the answers that you wanted to see. Pointing out reasons that this is a bad idea is far from trying to start a fight.

I've been in the aquarium industry my entire life. I don't know how familiar you are with reefs and aquariums, but your idea of these geckos apart from improper environment is going to be like keeping groupers and small reef fish together. It's just not advisable and no it's not me trying to start a fight. I'm just trying to help you be successful within the hobby.


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## HunterB

dont mix
plain and simple
nobody here has advised you too but u seem to think were overreacting, then fine do it
stop posting about something that your not even going to listen to peoples advise about, when your the one who asked in the first place

not to mention this inane example of fish continusly, there not PDFs and PDFs arent fish
so a comparison is useless
years of fishkeeping ,means nothing here cause this is a dart frog forum
so justifying that it might work because uve mixed fish doesnt mean anything

accept advise whens its given to you from people who have been here a long time and seen this topic come up before such as ChrisK, hell, ive havent been here that long and have seen this come up multiple times, and it always goes the same way


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## jubjub47

HunterB said:


> dont mix
> plain and simple
> nobody here has advised you too but u seem to think were overreacting, then fine do it
> stop posting about something that your not even going to listen to peoples advise about, when your the one who asked in the first place
> 
> not to mention this inane example of fish continusly, there not PDFs and PDFs arent fish
> so a comparison is useless
> years of fishkeeping ,means nothing here cause this is a dart frog forum
> so justifying that it might work because uve mixed fish doesnt mean anything
> 
> accept advise whens its given to you from people who have been here a long time and seen this topic come up before such as ChrisK, hell, ive havent been here that long and have seen this come up multiple times, and it always goes the same way


There is nothing wrong with a discussion on the subject. It's quite possible to have these discussion in a civil manor and there is much that can be learned by doing so. 

Take Energy's build as an example. The goal of that system is a mixed animal build, but he's open to discuss and take peoples experiences and recommendations and tweak his plans and made needed adjustments if necessary to make things work. That thread has been very informative and civil and is a great read.

Unfortunately, many times these threads pop up and the originator really has no intents on shifting his initial thoughts and then gets angry when people pose possible issues and the like. It is what it is I guess.


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## HunterB

o no
im not saying this topic is bad, beginners will bring it up and thats ok

what got me mad was someone asking for advice and then arguing with it at the same time


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## Nate

Just don't do it. If you care about either animals you wouldn't- and if you continue on with your plans it will be apparent you don't care about our hobby and other animals like crested geckos. Even with a lot of attention being payed to the tiny details something will go wrong and the animals will be harmed. You have gotten the opinion of many people on this and they have all been the same yet you continue arguing with them... please listen to everyone and don't do it!


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## Ed

tasteslikechicken said:


> About attacking the frogs- I'm not really sold. I think so long as the crested are well fed and not exposed to live foods they'll keep eating their crestie mush and leave a head-sized, warning colored frog alone. It's not worth the effort. I'd add the cresties as juveniles or obtain adults that have not been feed crickets to any great extent. No, it's not fail-safe that a given crested individual won't still have a high strike-drive, but your chances are much better.


There is a problem with this logic chain.. the problem is that they can't reason..., animals like reptiles are programmed (hard wired) to eat whenever food is available as in the wild periods of lots of food are often followed by periods of absolute famine... So they will eat as much as possible whenever a food item or potential food item is available as that resource may be the difference between dieing of starvation and surviving. 

With respect to to if the reptile appears to be struggling or not.. there are a lot of examples in the veterinary (as well as the hobbyist literature) that document that reptiles and amphibian may not show any signs of illness untill/unless it is very advanced. 

Attempting to force two animals which require fairly disparate niche requirements to inhabit the same enclosure is problematic in the long term (given that dendrobatids can easily liive for more than 10 years) as it significantly increases the probability of major health issues for all of the animals involved. With respect to the moisture/humidity requirements accomedating both species is not going to be possible in a enclosure which will end up providing suboptimal habitat for both species involved. 

Predation by the geckos is also going to be a major issue as aversion to aposomatic animals has to be learned... and the frogs are going to lack the toxins to make the test a learned behavior... 

Ed


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## d-prime

I did not read the entire thread thus far, however if your question was already resolved then disgard this information I am offering.

I have kept and bred crested geckos for 3 years with enough experience to state that they will develop respiratory problems down the line. Their behavior is territorial, and they have been known to eat pinkie mice. They will destroy a vivarium if the plants are all not extremely sturdy, and they will require heat lamps, which will cook the dark frogs.
In a vivarium, the frogs feces are easily broken down into nutrients, where as the cresteds will accumulate and mold over and it will not be pretty.

I just got into this hobby 2 years ago after my friend introduced me to his leaf tail gecko/ mantella tank. I myself have satanic leaf tails and have had the uroplatis sikorae and lineatus, and they all tolerate up to 100 % humidity and are housed in the same vivarium conditions as my frogs with great success.
With that being said, I wouldn't mix any darts with them as I strive for nature replicating vivariums. Its like seeing a lion and a tiger in the same display that is neither jungle or savannah. Mantellas were succesfully housed with satanic leaf tails that max out weighing less than a mantella baroni. If you want a gecko, try a satanic if you rlly insist, or even a lygodactylus gecko from tanzania. Just note that a dart bites with its tongue, geckos have a strong bite. Make sure that the food items are the same, but if your idea fails you won't find much sympathy as you are a pioneer in mixing on this forum.


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## Ed

d-prime said:


> if your idea fails you won't find much sympathy as you are a pioneer in mixing on this forum.


I woudn't say that he is a pioneer... there are people on here who started successfully making multispecies enclosures many many years before this appearence....

Throwing things together because you want to make it work, doesn't make you a pioneer as this is of the school of lets try it and see what happens school of thought...and is how most impulse purchases from a pet store are handled.. A real multispecies enclosures needs to be well planned and chosed ahead of time and there has to be a willingness to recognize bad combinations and to move past it to a better combination. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle

Chicken, I think your attitude toward the whole thing is a bit skewed.


tasteslikechicken said:


> Sometimes you just have to take a gamble...I don't think there is any harm to that so long as you know the risks, that the risks are not outrageous, and that you take whatever precautions you can.


I'm not even sure what this means. Even as far as inter-species mixing, this is a bad idea. You seem to feel like the risk is your time, effort, and money, and as long as your willing to accept this risk then you are being responsible?? Believe me, no one offering advice is even considering these risks.


tasteslikechicken said:


> Sometimes you just have to give it a try and just make sure you are prepared for the worst outcome. I guess that may seem harsh, but at least in the fish keeping world most people are pretty used to it.


Again, what does this mean? As long as you mentally prepare yourself for the worst outcome, then its acceptable to put "pets" in lethal situations? That's not harsh, it's irresponsible.


tasteslikechicken said:


> See that's something I hadn't thought that much about. I'm always impressed with how much certain things can poop.


So, housing both sets of animals in a compromised, hostile environment is cool, but an excessive poop cleaning maintenance schedule is not cool? 

No one here is looking for a fight, nor is anyone suggesting the cautious approach. What you propose is bad for the animals and people with experience in frogs, geckos, and reef tanks have told you so.


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## tasteslikechicken

Boondoggle said:


> So, housing both sets of animals in a compromised, hostile environment is cool, but an excessive poop cleaning maintenance schedule is not cool?


I wasn't getting at cleaning poop wasn't cool. It was a logistical, planning concern, which is what I was hoping to solicit now while I'm in the building process. 

Again, not sure I'm going to do this and if I am it's not going to be for a long time. I've got enough projects going on right now the frogs might die of old age before I got around to it. 

Other thoughts I had about this were to put one of those wire toppers on the tank to segregate the geckos, but that would give the feel of being one system. My concern there would be the humidity for the frogs if the top is open, but at the point I'd have a misting/fogging system in place that would hopefully it would resolve that issue. 

Another idea would be keep juveniles and move them once they are adults. Granted that's not a super long time.


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## ggazonas

I think your best option and really your only sensible, logical, smart and responsible option would be to have two separate enclosure designed specifically for these animals

Again putting the crested even juvies in the same viv as darts would be an even bigger mistake, considering the fact that juvies are in a state of growth and development and they are even more prone to disease and infections.


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## Ed

At this point it is pretty clear that the OP is looking for any justification to house the two together for some reason that he probably hasn't shared as he has pretty much ignored the suggestions including the issues of pathogens.. 

I'm going to repeat what has become current wisdom in the Professional arena... 

Mixing species of herps from disparate zoogeographic regions has been shown to be a real problem when it comes to emerging pathogens. For example the mycoplasma that has been a major contributer to the decline of native Gopherus species (and now Terrapene species) is believed to have originated from exotic species kept with native Gopher tortoises which then were allowed to contaminate the wild population... this has also occured with viruses carried by tiger salamanders... now the defense that these animals are not going to be released doesn't excuse the mixing as the waste water and materials has to be discarded and waste water is a real problem as most older cities are not made to handle it and if there is a heavy storm then untreated waste is then released into the enviroment.... 

There is a lot of supporting literature on this problem if he cares enough to look into it.. 

Ed


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## Morgan Freeman

Well it seems the Jury is on on this one. I can't ever see it being a good idea.

Humidity, aggression issues, size, potential pathogens and illnesses...it's just never going to work.

Even if they stay alive for a year, two years, I can't imagine those frogs being comfortable with a 6+ inch gecko constantly lurking around and active while they try to sleep.


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## Deadly_Kermit

I agree that crested geckos would be a little intense for a dart frog enclosure, but that does not mean the mixing is ALWAYS a bad idea. I used to keep a 55 gal Pal with green anoles, fire bellied toads, reed frogs, flying geckos, some kind of salamander (I don't recall the species), and tropical fish. It was a challenge to keep it clean, and that is why it was eventually broken down, but there were no problems with interactions between the animals.

I am currently keeping 2.2 Banded leucs with 1.1 house geckos. There have been no problems thus far. The animals were all quarantined before being placed together and are always very closely watched for any signs of stress. The frogs and geckos completely ignore each other and they are all breeding (a good indication of being very comfortable in their enclosure).

Don't give up on the idea just because a lot of people on this forum told you not to... Most of them have had no experience with mixing and they are just repeating what others have told them. 

What you need to do is approach the idea with an open mind, but with caution and common sense. Crested geckos MAY be able to mix just fine, but the fact they they are physically capable of swallowing a dart frog means that it is probably not worth the risk. 

My next project is to experiment with mixing U. Phantasticus and Leucs. They are from very different parts of the world, but their ranges are at the same latitude and require identical environments, neither should be aggressive toward the other and neither would be capable of eating the other. I will post the results on this forum. I am sure to get many posts from people who are absolutely against mixing species. Logic tells me that if they are that opposed to it, they have never tried it themselves, so I will discount any posts that do not include personal experience with it. 

The reason most people are interested in this hobby is because they find the animals interesting and want to learn about them. Nothing can be learned without trying something new.


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## Enlightened Rogue

Deadly_Kermit said:


> I agree that crested geckos would be a little intense for a dart frog enclosure, but that does not mean the mixing is ALWAYS a bad idea. I used to keep a 55 gal Pal with green anoles, fire bellied toads, reed frogs, flying geckos, some kind of salamander (I don't recall the species), and tropical fish. It was a challenge to keep it clean, and that is why it was eventually broken down, but there were no problems with interactions between the animals.
> 
> I am currently keeping 2.2 Banded leucs with 1.1 house geckos. There have been no problems thus far. The animals were all quarantined before being placed together and are always very closely watched for any signs of stress. The frogs and geckos completely ignore each other and they are all breeding (a good indication of being very comfortable in their enclosure).
> 
> Don't give up on the idea just because a lot of people on this forum told you not to... Most of them have had no experience with mixing and they are just repeating what others have told them.
> 
> What you need to do is approach the idea with an open mind, but with caution and common sense. Crested geckos MAY be able to mix just fine, but the fact they they are physically capable of swallowing a dart frog means that it is probably not worth the risk.
> 
> My next project is to experiment with mixing U. Phantasticus and Leucs. They are from very different parts of the world, but their ranges are at the same latitude and require identical environments, neither should be aggressive toward the other and neither would be capable of eating the other. I will post the results on this forum. I am sure to get many posts from people who are absolutely against mixing species. Logic tells me that if they are that opposed to it, they have never tried it themselves, so I will discount any posts that do not include personal experience with it.
> 
> The reason most people are interested in this hobby is because they find the animals interesting and want to learn about them. Nothing can be learned without trying something new.


Can we bring the rep. system back just for this one post?

John


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## jubjub47

Deadly_Kermit said:


> My next project is to experiment with mixing U. Phantasticus and Leucs. They are from very different parts of the world, but their ranges are at the same latitude and require identical environments, neither should be aggressive toward the other and neither would be capable of eating the other. I will post the results on this forum. I am sure to get many posts from people who are absolutely against mixing species. Logic tells me that if they are that opposed to it, they have never tried it themselves, so I will discount any posts that do not include personal experience with it.


This is where you differ from the original poster. You are logically picking two animals from similar environments and proceeding with caution. Habitat wise they do require pretty similar environments. Pathogen wise no and it may or may not cause problems, but you're still starting off on a better base than what has been suggested with the crested geckos.

House geckos are very adaptable and will thrive in most conditions they are put in so I'm not surprised that they too are doing well.

As for you comments on being against mixing animals due to lack of experience, I do not fit into that category. I've mixed successfully in the past on many occassions. I've also mixed unsuccessfully on many occassions. But I've always started with a basis of two animals requiring like environments and working it out from there. 

Please don't try and give the original poster justification to mix two animals that are so different in requirements just because you want to stand up to the anti mixing crowd. As I said before, this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-questions.html has been thoroughly talked upon within this same anti mixing community in a civil manor and you will find that their is a very productive and educational conversation with different recommendations of species to mix which may or may not do well together. Before jumping on everyone here in this manor I suggest you read that thread and see how most here are actually very receptive to the idea if you're willing to take the precautions to do it right and not just ignore all recommendations.


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## Deadly_Kermit

I am no trying to validate the idea of mixing darts with crested geckos and I see that my last post did kind of give that impression, so I apologize for that. 

The overall impression that I want to give, is that mixing can be done successfully, but you should not attempt it without putting a lot of thought and reason into it first. It is always a bad idea to mix to species without prior experience with both. 

I am annoyed however when inexperienced people jump on the topic of mixing species and condemn the idea without ever having tried it. 

If you have attempted mixing in the past, share your knowledge. Tell us what worked, What didn't work and WHY. If you have never attempted anything of the kind, then you really have no useful information about it. I love to hear about personal experiences with mixing and I encourage everyone to post the results of experimental mixing. 

Bottom line though, is that the physical and mental health of the animals is the most important thing. 
DON'T try to mix without prior experience with both species, or you will not be able to identify signs of stress. 
THINK about what you are doing. Don't try to mix species that might eat one another, or species from different environments (IE: Cresteds and darts)
DON'T continue a mixing experiment if any of the animals show any signs of stress, separate them immediately if any signs of stress occur.

Also realize that this is an advanced topic and should never be attempted by a beginner.


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## kingnicky101

Okay when it comes to dart frogs mixing is a HUGE NO! Unless you are a very experienced keeper you MAY have the capability of mixing two different types of DART FROGS successfully. The reef hobby is much different than our pdf hobby, I know because I help my father with his 75 gallon tropical reef tank and I used to have seahorses. I have kept two different species of captive bred chelonians together, but these animals will NEVER be released in the wild and will not contaminate any collections when I sell their offspring. I am talking of me mixing my sub-adult pair of florida box turtles with my juvenile gulf coast box turtles. Some people are very over dramatic saying "you can't do that!", "captive bred doesn't mean anything!", "You're an inexperienced keeper!", "Oh well if you can mix those why can't I mix this!?". This is mainly due to the fact that most people think "Oh if you can mix fish in a reef tank I'll mix frogs", or vice versa "you can't mix anything, everything has to be seperate so you won't contaminate anything!" If you mix adults in a big enough pen, the only risk you're running is hybrids with a slight chance of breeding or feeding aggression, which is why I'll move the gulf coasts once they mature. I have kept several community tanks in the past, such as spotted turtles with bullfrogs, with much success, but believe what you want to believe people. All I'm saying is that you may have luck mixing certain animals with others, but darts are definitely not one of them. Full grown crested gecko males can be highly aggressive, not to mention crested geckos can easily take down a leuc. Even if you mixed them just temporarily when they are young, leucs, or any pdf or any amphibian, are very very sensitive to changes in their environment. Crested geckos and leucs come from two different areas of the globe so that is yet another reason not to mix. When you put something in one species habitat that doesn't belong there there will most likely be problems. Take the invasive species of cane toad for example, you know how much damage that has done to native species of Australia?When it comes down to this DO NOT MIX! For the welfare of your animals, for the love of God, DO NOT MIX!


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## Ed

kingnicky101 said:


> I have kept two different species of captive bred chelonians together, but these animals will NEVER be released in the wild and will not contaminate any collections when I sell their offspring. I am talking of me mixing my sub-adult pair of florida box turtles with my juvenile gulf coast box turtles.!


On what grounds are you making the claim that there will be no pathogen transfer? Are you testing your collection for the various known pathogens such as but not limited to mycoplasma, iridovirus and cryptosporidia or are you assuming that because they look healthy they are healthy? 




kingnicky101 said:


> "captive bred doesn't mean anything!",!


Slightly out of context but with respect to pathogen issues, cb is potentially a bigger issue with respect to emerging pathogens than straight wild caught animals... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Deadly_Kermit

kingnicky101 said:


> Okay when it comes to dart frogs mixing is a HUGE NO! Unless you are a very experienced keeper you MAY have the capability of mixing two different types of DART FROGS successfully. The reef hobby is much different than our pdf hobby, I know because I help my father with his 75 gallon tropical reef tank and I used to have seahorses. I have kept two different species of captive bred chelonians together, but these animals will NEVER be released in the wild and will not contaminate any collections when I sell their offspring. I am talking of me mixing my sub-adult pair of florida box turtles with my juvenile gulf coast box turtles. Some people are very over dramatic saying "you can't do that!", "captive bred doesn't mean anything!", "You're an inexperienced keeper!", "Oh well if you can mix those why can't I mix this!?". This is mainly due to the fact that most people think "Oh if you can mix fish in a reef tank I'll mix frogs", or vice versa "you can't mix anything, everything has to be seperate so you won't contaminate anything!" If you mix adults in a big enough pen, the only risk you're running is hybrids with a slight chance of breeding or feeding aggression, which is why I'll move the gulf coasts once they mature. I have kept several community tanks in the past, such as spotted turtles with bullfrogs, with much success, but believe what you want to believe people. All I'm saying is that you may have luck mixing certain animals with others, but darts are definitely not one of them. Full grown crested gecko males can be highly aggressive, not to mention crested geckos can easily take down a leuc. Even if you mixed them just temporarily when they are young, leucs, or any pdf or any amphibian, are very very sensitive to changes in their environment. Crested geckos and leucs come from two different areas of the globe so that is yet another reason not to mix. When you put something in one species habitat that doesn't belong there there will most likely be problems. Take the invasive species of cane toad for example, you know how much damage that has done to native species of Australia?When it comes down to this DO NOT MIX! For the welfare of your animals, for the love of God, DO NOT MIX!




This is the kind of guy that I am talking about....


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## Occidentalis

It might be best to close this thread or at least let it die. There isn't much else to say except the above nonsensical and speculations.

It is clear from the way this discussion has gone (and the qualifications of the posters that have responded) what the responsible choice would be.

It might be beneficial, however, to do the mix. While the individual frogs would not benefit, perhaps some hard "I told you so" style lessons would be good for this community. Then again, it would only be one data point, hard to validate and probably would not be reported in the end. I have a feeling it would end in a similar way to this, with a foot and a frown: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/45352-tradegy-help.html


----------



## Ed

Deadly_Kermit said:


> I am currently keeping 2.2 Banded leucs with 1.1 house geckos. There have been no problems thus far. The animals were all quarantined before being placed together and are always very closely watched for any signs of stress. The frogs and geckos completely ignore each other and they are all breeding (a good indication of being very comfortable in their enclosure).


Depends on what you mean by quarantine.. if it was keeping them seperate from the rest of the collection then that is a good idea but insufficient to deal with the pathogen problem (as noted below) as a more comprehensive testing regimen is required... What are you doing with the waste water from the enclosure? 



Deadly_Kermit said:


> My next project is to experiment with mixing U. Phantasticus and Leucs. They are from very different parts of the world, but their ranges are at the same latitude and require identical environments, neither should be aggressive toward the other and neither would be capable of eating the other. I will post the results on this forum. I am sure to get many posts from people who are absolutely against mixing species. Logic tells me that if they are that opposed to it, they have never tried it themselves, so I will discount any posts that do not include personal experience with it.
> .



Again, I'm going to repeat what I have said in several other places in this forum.. but for some odd reason people keep skipping over it or denying that they are a potential risk problem with it.... 

I'm going to repeat what has become current wisdom in the Professional arena... 

Mixing species of herps from disparate zoogeographic regions has been shown to be a real problem when it comes to emerging pathogens. For example the mycoplasma that has been a major contributer to the decline of native Gopherus species (and now Terrapene species) is believed to have originated from exotic species kept with native Gopher tortoises which then were allowed to contaminate the wild population... this has also occured with viruses carried by tiger salamanders... now the defense that these animals are not going to be released doesn't excuse the mixing as the waste water and materials has to be discarded and waste water is a real problem as most older cities are not made to handle it and if there is a heavy storm then untreated waste is then released into the enviroment.... 

There is a lot of supporting literature on this problem if those involved care to look into it... 

Ed


----------



## Occidentalis

Ed said:


> Slightly out of context but with respect to pathogen issues, cb is potentially a bigger issue with respect to emerging pathogens than straight wild caught animals...
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


Especially if kept in a multi species home environment with no vector barriers.


----------



## Ed

Occidentalis said:


> It might be beneficial, however, to do the mix. While the individual frogs would not benefit, perhaps some hard "I told you so" style lessons would be good for this community. Then again, it would only be one data point, hard to validate and probably would not be reported in the end. I have a feeling it would end in a similar way to this, with a foot and a frown: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/45352-tradegy-help.html


Your making the assumption that they would ever admit that a problem arose and this still doesn't resolve the pathogen issue. 

I'm not sure what its going to take to get people to take the risk of cb collections to the natives seriously, I would have thought that massive outbreaks and large scale die offs due to mycoplasma in the native box turtle (including at least one incidence caused by released cb animals) and Gopher tortoises or the threat of novel iridovirus infections due to cross infection from feeder insects to the captive animals... or the risk of infection from chytrid and novel lungworm by waste water from captive collections.... (and chytrid is now killing hellbenders.. so one of North America's largest salamanders could be wiped out..). 

Ed

Ed


----------



## Ed

Occidentalis said:


> Especially if kept in a multi species home environment with no vector barriers.


I have yet to see proper quarantine procedures that prevent cross contamination much less proper vector barriers in a home enviroment... 

Ed


----------



## Occidentalis

Ed said:


> Your making the assumption that they would ever admit that a problem arose and this still doesn't resolve the pathogen issue.
> 
> I'm not sure what its going to take to get people to take the risk of cb collections to the natives seriously, I would have thought that massive outbreaks and large scale die offs due to mycoplasma in the native box turtle (including at least one incidence caused by released cb animals) and Gopher tortoises or the threat of novel iridovirus infections due to cross infection from feeder insects to the captive animals... or the risk of infection from chytrid and novel lungworm by waste water from captive collections.... (and chytrid is now killing hellbenders.. so one of North America's largest salamanders could be wiped out..).
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


I tried to address my assumption by saying it would be hard to validate (the pathogen issue) and probably not reported. Either way, it is still a big assumption, and probably not one worth the life of a few frogs.


I think the problem with everything involving pathogens and risk to populations is written at a technical level, and people don't understand it. There aren't any popular literature articles that I've seen that address it.
I also think that the other problem is that it's just very difficult to provide bio-security for your animals, not to mention expensive. Perhaps a sticky or something outlining a few steps everyone can take (bleach in the waste water, and so on) to reduce some risks is in order.


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## Deadly_Kermit

My quarantine regiment consists of separation from the rest of the collection for several months in order to identify any health problems that may be present. I also inspect reptiles for external parasites such as mites and inspect their fecal matter under a microscope for signs of internal parasites that may be treated with medication. This is just about as much as I can do. If there is something more effective that you do I would like to hear about it so I can adjust my routine.



Ed said:


> Mixing species of herps from disparate zoogeographic regions has been shown to be a real problem when it comes to emerging pathogens. For example the mycoplasma that has been a major contributer to the decline of native Gopherus species (and now Terrapene species) is believed to have originated from exotic species kept with native Gopher tortoises which then were allowed to contaminate the wild population... this has also occured with viruses carried by tiger salamanders... now the defense that these animals are not going to be released doesn't excuse the mixing as the waste water and materials has to be discarded and waste water is a real problem as most older cities are not made to handle it and if there is a heavy storm then untreated waste is then released into the enviroment....


This is very true. Captive herps should never be released back into the wild, and wild herps should never be exposed to captive populations.

The waste water is a real issue, most of mine goes into the plants in my house or in my greenhouse. This isn't really relevant to the issue of multispecies tanks. If you have a pathogen in any of your enclosures, it could be passed to wild populations through waste water, regardless of the number of species in the enclosure it came from.


----------



## Ed

Deadly_Kermit said:


> My quarantine regiment consists of separation from the rest of the collection for several months in order to identify any health problems that may be present. I also inspect reptiles for external parasites such as mites and inspect their fecal matter under a microscope for signs of internal parasites that may be treated with medication. This is just about as much as I can do. If there is something more effective that you do I would like to hear about it so I can adjust my routine.
> 
> 
> 
> This is very true. Captive herps should never be released back into the wild, and wild herps should never be exposed to captive populations.
> 
> The waste water is a real issue, most of mine goes into the plants in my house or in my greenhouse. This isn't really relevant to the issue of multispecies tanks. If you have a pathogen in any of your enclosures, it could be passed to wild populations through waste water, regardless of the number of species in the enclosure it came from.



With respect to the multispecies issue, there is a significant problem with emerging diseases as I noted with a couple of examples so it is actually very relevent... 

With the waste water use in the greenhouse, this indicates that wastewater can contaminate the soil and when dealing with (for one off the cuff issue) non-native Rhabdius species this is an issue with novel infection to the local population.. 

and with respect to the first issue, Necropsy? Routine fecals outside of quarantine? 

Ed


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## Deadly_Kermit

Occidentalis said:


> It might be best to close this thread or at least let it die. There isn't much else to say except the above nonsensical and speculations.


I'm going to take this advise...


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## Deadly_Kermit

Ed said:


> With respect to the multispecies issue, there is a significant problem with emerging diseases as I noted with a couple of examples so it is actually very relevent...
> 
> With the waste water use in the greenhouse, this indicates that wastewater can contaminate the soil and when dealing with (for one off the cuff issue) non-native Rhabdius species this is an issue with novel infection to the local population..
> 
> and with respect to the first issue, Necropsy? Routine fecals outside of quarantine?
> 
> Ed


OK, so lets get this thread back onto a productive line of conversation.....

I do perform a necropsy on any of my animals that die, for whatever reason, but I have to admit that I am not trained or skilled enough to identify some of the more surreptitious pathogens. A belly full of parasites is one thing, but identifying a virus is something completely different. 

I also perform routine fecals on my collection, but I know I should do his more often. I estimate that I do a fecal on my healthy animals somewhere around every 6 months or so. 

What do you do with you waste water? Short of boiling it (which is not going to happen) I cannot see a feasible course of action that would completely contain any pathogens.


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## Occidentalis

Deadly_Kermit said:


> What do you do with you waste water? Short of boiling it (which is not going to happen) I cannot see a feasible course of action that would completely contain any pathogens.


Bleach!

Perhaps an autoclave should be a standard addition to a frog room =)


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## Deadly_Kermit

Occidentalis said:


> Perhaps an autoclave should be a standard addition to a frog room =)


hehe, maybe we should just keep our herp rooms at 251 degrees and 21psi... No more pathogen problems!


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## Occidentalis

Deadly_Kermit said:


> hehe, maybe we should just keep our herp rooms at 251 degrees and 21psi... No more pathogen problems!


It would be a little steamy in there for my tastes.


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## Ed

Deadly_Kermit said:


> OK, so lets get this thread back onto a productive line of conversation.....
> 
> I do perform a necropsy on any of my animals that die, for whatever reason, but I have to admit that I am not trained or skilled enough to identify some of the more surreptitious pathogens. A belly full of parasites is one thing, but identifying a virus is something completely different.
> 
> I also perform routine fecals on my collection, but I know I should do his more often. I estimate that I do a fecal on my healthy animals somewhere around every 6 months or so.
> 
> What do you do with you waste water? Short of boiling it (which is not going to happen) I cannot see a feasible course of action that would completely contain any pathogens.


If you have access to a vet who is willing to send it out for you histopathology and a report can be had from Northwest ZooPath (Northwest ZooPath - Specializing in the Pathology of nondomestic species). The proper necropsy is a good idea as it can identify a lot of potential issues that are more subtle than a bellyfull of parasites such as non-apparent coccidial infections, livers that float.. or even viral inclusions.... 

The best reasonable method for the home hobbyist is a sump that can contain the waste water and allow it be bleached for at least 48 hours before being neutralized and discarded. This will deal with a wide variety of pathogens with the exception of some of the resistent coccidia (and yes Cryptosporidia is known to infect amphibians). 


Ed 


Ed


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## tasteslikechicken

Ed said:


> If you have access to a vet who is willing to send it out for you histopathology and a report can be had from Northwest ZooPath (Northwest ZooPath - Specializing in the Pathology of nondomestic species). The proper necropsy is a good idea as it can identify a lot of potential issues that are more subtle than a bellyfull of parasites such as non-apparent coccidial infections, livers that float.. or even viral inclusions....


On necropsy for exotics... You're often going to find tons of potential pathogens. Often there isn't enough of a background sample of a given organism to really know what is or isn't normal flora and/or what the upper limits of said bioload are. Depending on where you are and what your options are a necropsy can be pretty expensive (it can also be free), so you'll want to do research about how much relevant information you stand to gain from your efforts.

I'd also look around at what research is being done at your local university. If there is someone doing anything with herps or amphibians (on a macro scale) you might want to contact the head of the lab and see if he/she has any graduate students that might be interested in evaluating your samples. Often they'll have all the equipment laying around and will be bore to tears grading papers, dying for a chance to fiddle with something else.


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## Ed

tasteslikechicken said:


> On necropsy for exotics... You're often going to find tons of potential pathogens. Often there isn't enough of a background sample of a given organism to really know what is or isn't normal flora and/or what the upper limits of said bioload are. Depending on where you are and what your options are a necropsy can be pretty expensive (it can also be free), so you'll want to do research about how much relevant information you stand to gain from your efforts.


There is a fair bit of solid information on this in the exotic vet literature*.. with respect to Dendrobatid frogs, this was pretty much the start JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie of that, there are a number of known pathogens that are real problems in captivity.. for example, lungworms of the genus Rhabdias and hookworms are both very problematic as both can readily build up into superinfections in captive species. There are also a number of different Rhabdias species, each of which is evolved to its own group of amphibians so housing multiple non-sympatric species even within the same room is a problem unless one can can ensure decent biosecurity to prevent crossinfection.... Its a lot more understood than you are alleging in that post... 

Ed



* including the even more interesting discovery on the role of pinworms in many species.. for the anuran example see Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies )


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## jubjub47

Ed said:


> The best reasonable method for the home hobbyist is a sump that can contain the waste water and allow it be bleached for at least 48 hours before being neutralized and discarded. This will deal with a wide variety of pathogens with the exception of some of the resistent coccidia (and yes Cryptosporidia is known to infect amphibians).
> 
> 
> Ed
> 
> 
> Ed


I don't usually have waste water other than tadpoles which I presume should be treated with bleach, but are there any other methods that can be done or added to this regimen?


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## Deadly_Kermit

Ed said:


> The best reasonable method for the home hobbyist is a sump that can contain the waste water and allow it be bleached for at least 48 hours before being neutralized and discarded.


This does seem like a good idea. I have plenty of 5 gallon buckets laying around, it should be pretty easy to bleach the waste water from my systems. 

I wish I had access to a lab for a proper necropsy. I don't have a "local university", and there are no vets within driving distance that deal with herps at all. I am from the middle of nowhere so things like that are hard to come by.


----------



## Ed

Deadly_Kermit said:


> This does seem like a good idea. I have plenty of 5 gallon buckets laying around, it should be pretty easy to bleach the waste water from my systems.
> 
> I wish I had access to a lab for a proper necropsy. I don't have a "local university", and there are no vets within driving distance that deal with herps at all. I am from the middle of nowhere so things like that are hard to come by.



Just make a 10% solution and let the bucket sit until the water turn clear or 48 hours which ever is longer. If you have a real high organic load you may have to retreat the water a second time. Add some dechlorinator, stir (or filter over carbon) and it can be discarded, (if you fully neutralized) it used to water the plants. 

The nice thing about Zoo Path, is they will perform the full necropsy if you choose so the vet can send them the whole body. If you have a vet for your other pets, check with them and see if they would be willing to facilitate the shipping (talk to the vet when you take a different pet in so you can get past the rote answer at the desk or make a appointment to talk to the vet) as that and recieving the report for you is all that they need to do. 

Checking for organ issues is a pretty good one as damage to the liver (or kidneys) is possible depending on the dosing methods for some medications and supplements.. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

jubjub47 said:


> I don't usually have waste water other than tadpoles which I presume should be treated with bleach, but are there any other methods that can be done or added to this regimen?


Yep, treat with bleach, dechlorinate via aquarium dechlorinator or filtering over carbon and discard...
This is currently the "standard" put forth for a number of institutions as it works well, and is easily maintained by the staff and has minimal working parts that can break down. 

If you wanted to, provided you discarded it properly into a landfill, filter the water before bleaching with a diatom filter to remove all of the particulates to allow for a more effective bleaching process.. this will also remove some larger pathogens and cysts which is why it would need to be discarded into a landfill properly (a lined landfill is unlikely to leach or contaminate other areas). 

Ed


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## ChrisK

Would dumping it down a building's garbage incinerator be effective?


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## ggazonas

maybe this should be placed in a separate thread since its such an important topic. And then we should probably sticky it as well.

If a mod see this can we make a new thread.


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## kingnicky101

Ed said:


> On what grounds are you making the claim that there will be no pathogen transfer? Are you testing your collection for the various known pathogens such as but not limited to mycoplasma, iridovirus and cryptosporidia or are you assuming that because they look healthy they are healthy?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Slightly out of context but with respect to pathogen issues, cb is potentially a bigger issue with respect to emerging pathogens than straight wild caught animals...
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


I never said that they won't have pathogens. I put them i quarantine for a few months and looked out for the "simple" signs of illness. If one of my turtles had deceased or was bullied, I would most certainly separate them. Those turtle won't interact with any wild turtles or won't disrupt anything in the wild, unless if I get rid of one, or sell their offspring and someone releases them. I'm not saying you'll have success if you go and try it, I just got lucky. I'm not saying my animals are definately healthy either. One time I had a translucent veiled chameleon which was great eating well, drinking fine for the few weeks that we had it. Then, it literally dropped dead. I brought the body to a vet and it turns it the vendor sold it to us with a respiratory infection. I'm not saying there is no pathogen transfer, there obviously will be, but it is unlikely that they have these deadly diseases, some of which are quite noticeable in chelonians, will spread among two different sub-species of captive bred chelonians from the same source. I'm not saying it won't ever happen though. If one of my many turtles happens to be sick, I have a box of "turtle meds". I have medication for ear infections, eye infections, respiratory infections, herpes, and so forth. If there is a problem among my turtles, there will be an expensive vet bill. I know my turtles may look healthy, but that doesn't mean they're actually healthy because there always is a chance like what happened to my chameleon. There is most certainly pathogen transfer Ed, I agree with you 100%, but it doesn't mean that these pathogens are mycoplasma, iridovirus and cryptosporidia, or any other dangerous pathogens. There is always a possibility though so I am aware of that and have taken that risk and have been able to dodge that bullet.


----------



## Ed

kingnicky101 said:


> I never said that they won't have pathogens.





kingnicky101 said:


> I have kept two different species of captive bred chelonians together, but these animals will NEVER be released in the wild and will not contaminate any collections when I sell their offspring.


How do you reconcile your first sentence here with the prior quote on "will not contaminate any collections"? This is only possible if you are absolute sure that they carry no pathogens/parasites. 





kingnicky101 said:


> I put them i quarantine for a few months and looked out for the "simple" signs of illness.


Simple signs of illness can be indicative of subclinical signs of major disease processes such as runny eyes in chelonians being a symptom of not only mycoplasma but ranavirus.. the fact that a turtle or turtles recover and do not show further symptoms does not clear the animal from being a carrier (potentially asymptomatic)... simple quarantine is insufficient particuarly when one is engaged in any level of release repatriation (of which you participate..) 




kingnicky101 said:


> If one of my turtles had deceased or was bullied, I would most certainly separate them. Those turtle won't interact with any wild turtles or won't disrupt anything in the wild, unless if I get rid of one, or sell their offspring and someone releases them..


Or you drain thier waste water down the drain....



kingnicky101 said:


> I'm not saying there is no pathogen transfer, there obviously will be, but it is unlikely that they have these deadly diseases, some of which are quite noticeable in chelonians, will spread among two different sub-species of captive bred chelonians from the same source.


Captive bred from the same source does not remove the risk as some viral factors are potentially transmitted from invertebrate hosts and there is the real risk of verticle transmission... 
Actually these pathogens can readily be maintained via one or more asymtomatic carriers in the collection and manifest upon being exposed to a stressor..or infection with a novel stressed host... With respect to cryptosporidia infection in chelonians.. chelonians normally do not demonstrate the same symptoms as other reptiles and often act as important vectors in introducing it to captive collections as it is easy to underestimate the risk of cross infection due to the persistance of cryptosporidia cysts (and thier resistance to all common disinfectants except straight household ammonia and live steam..) 
The only way to be sure you are not harboring mycoplasma is via either bloodtest or swabbing with a ELISA or PCR test.. with respect to the cryptosporidia, you would need to check via multiple fecals to see if you can catch it during a period of active shedding.. with respect to the viral pathogens.. blood tests specifically for those pathogens. 



kingnicky101 said:


> I have a box of "turtle meds". I have medication for ear infections, eye infections, respiratory infections, herpes, and so forth. ..


Herpes infection in chelonians is not curable.. the best you can hope for is a carrier.. Unless you are get diagnosis for the exact conditions, treating for eye infections etc is a problem as this/these is/are also a indication of mycoplasma and viral infections.. neither of which is cured via the eye treatments.. This is why specific testing is required when dealing with symptoms that are can signical much more sigificant disease problems.. 




kingnicky101 said:


> mycoplasma, iridovirus and cryptosporidia, or any other dangerous pathogens. There is always a possibility though so I am aware of that and have taken that risk and have been able to dodge that bullet.


I used those as some of the better known examples, and its going to seem like I'm picking on you here but I'm not.. the self-diagnosing treatment(s) of the animals without the background testing prevents you from being able to not only rule out that you have those diseases in your collection but puts not only your collection at risk but any EBT releases you engage in as well as your captive frog collection (if you have ranavirus, which is also known from turtles) to other people's collections. There are a number of potential pathogens but I purposely limited to only a few of the better known ones. 

Ed


----------



## kingnicky101

I should have re-phrased that, they will most likely not contaminate any collections with DEADLY pathogens. I am 100% positive that NONE of my chelonians have parasites. The vet did tests on their poop, and they came out negative, plus parasite are very easily noticed in chelonians, or any disease in that matter. Oh yeah, I am also aware that herpes in chelonians is not treatable, I never had to use that medication, but it does help turtles with herpes but does not treat it. I have never had a turtle die on me either Ed. I am just stating what I plan to do if one does. Oh yeah I don't release EBT's anymore either. So that's not a problem. As far as contaminating people's frog collections, that's a one in a million chance that will happen. Just because I did this or that does not mean deadly diseases are being transferred that me animals don't even have.


----------



## Occidentalis

Ever had one of those moments when you find something so frustrating it's mildly funny? I'm having one of those right now.


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> Would dumping it down a building's garbage incinerator be effective?


I missed this one before.. in short yes. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

kingnicky101 said:


> I should have re-phrased that, they will most likely not contaminate any collections with DEADLY pathogens. I am 100% positive that NONE of my chelonians have parasites. The vet did tests on their poop, and they came out negative, plus parasite are very easily noticed in chelonians, or any disease in that matter..



So what pathogens carried by chelonians are not "deadly"? Are there a number of pathogens that are known to infect chelonians but do not cause any disease processes or that can result in the death of the chelonian or any other animal? 

Coming from the perspective of having professionally worked with a stable collection for over 17 years that has fecals(s) checked at least twice a year, parasite infections crop up in animals that were negative for years prior to the positive test.. This is also supported in the veterinary literature hence the recommendation to get the animals tested on at least a yearly basis if not more frequently. 

With respect to diseases being easily noted in chelonians, I think you should review the literature on asymptomatic carriers of the various diseases which by definition do not show signs of infection. As I noted above with some of these disease processes, subclinical infections can result in asymtomatic carriers.... 




kingnicky101 said:


> Oh yeah, I am also aware that herpes in chelonians is not treatable, I never had to use that medication, but it does help turtles with herpes but does not treat it. I have never had a turtle die on me either Ed. I am just stating what I plan to do if one does. Oh yeah I don't release EBT's anymore either. So that's not a problem. As far as contaminating people's frog collections, that's a one in a million chance that will happen. Just because I did this or that does not mean deadly diseases are being transferred that me animals don't even have.


Supportive treatment of the animals does help but the implication you provided above was that it was a medicine that cured the herpes infection in the turtles... and does not necessarily prevent the turtle from infecting other turtles with the virus. 

I don't think I ever said that you were actually transferring diseases from one collection to another but instead was hammering on the potential risk as you seem to be very interested in dismissing it... 

So tell me which is the worse scenario.. discovering after the fact that there was a probability you did introduce a pathogen into your collection, the local ecosystem or another person's collection or taking the proper precautions? If I'm wrong, then I've only wasted my time, if your wrong, it has much greater implications. 

Again, I strongly suggest reviewing the literature that shows that even simple symptoms in chelonians like a runny eye need a vet check and possibly a swab or blood test to rule out mycoplasma or a virus and not simply make the assumption that the turtle or tortoise does not have a bigger underlying problem. 

Ed 

(Somehow I find your claim that you are no longer going to engage in release of EBTs to be disingenuous...)


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## kingnicky101

Sorry, guys I don't mean to hijack the thread. Umm, first off Ed, I NEVER lost a turtle, and I NEVER needed to use the herpes medication. I should say there are germs being transferred, which are harmless. Now stop saying I need to this and that because apparently if you have turtles and frogs there are going to be DEADLY pathogens and I HAVE to do something about it when there's not a problem and you're saying I can contaminate other people's collections which sure helps me make a sale around here. I know how to tell a sick turtle from a healthy one. I am listening to your advice Ed, but you have to realize my turtles are fine, or else they would not be acting so healthy, have perfect poops, and are thriving. And I'm pretty sure my turtles would not be breeding if they weren't healthy. Also, my gulf coasts are F1's from wc's collected from southern Florida, and my Florida's are F2's from wc grandparents from southern Florida. So I'm pretty sure these two species encounter each other in the wild and pathogens from their range will NOT be a problem, unless you think otherwise than what is stated in "North American Box Turtles A Natural History" written by C. Kenneth Dodd, who knows more about box turtles than you or me.


----------



## Ed

kingnicky101 said:


> Sorry, guys I don't mean to hijack the thread. Umm, first off Ed, I NEVER lost a turtle, and I NEVER needed to use the herpes medication. I should say there are germs being transferred, which are harmless.


Germs are not necessarily pathogens and pathogens are not necessarily germs.. I am still curious as to your reference about pathogens that can't cause a disease process in chelonians or other animals or death in chelonians (other than that turtles can carry cryptosporidia asymtomatically.. (as well as Entamoeba). The answer that there are germs being transfered which are harmless doesn't provide the support to your earlier claim. 



kingnicky101 said:


> Now stop saying I need to this and that because apparently if you have turtles and frogs there are going to be DEADLY pathogens and I HAVE to do something about it when there's not a problem and you're saying I can contaminate other people's collections which sure helps me make a sale around here.


If you bother to read through the entire theread, not just your posts, there is a long discussion on how to mimize the risk to other animals... 

At this moment, you are making me believe that the real reason you are having problems with this discussion is that you may have problems selling the turtles... 

I don't think I ever stated emphatically or otherwise that there was a gurantee that there was going to be a deadly pathogen outbreak, I simply pointed out that the symptoms of which you have been dismissive all along were symptoms that can easily be indicative of a subclinical infection of a more serious disease. (and again, I state... if I'm wrong, it was just a waste of my time while if your wrong, its a bigger issues that could further contribute to the loss of native populations of herps... or your collection or someone else's collection) and that (apparently one time) fecals and visual inspections are insufficient to rule out those diseases. 




kingnicky101 said:


> I know how to tell a sick turtle from a healthy one. I am listening to your advice Ed, but you have to realize my turtles are fine, or else they would not be acting so healthy, have perfect poops, and are thriving..


And this would also easily be the case if they were carriers (as asymptomatic carriers by definition act totally healthy, have perfect poops and thrive..) of any of not only the various diseases I mentioned but others we have not mentioned or discussed. Unless you have done a full work up on each turtle you cannot rule out any of those pathogens... and in addition, unless you can totally control quarantine down to invertebrate access to the rooms, you may have to retest all turtles when any new animal is added if it turns up positive on a nasal swab or blood test. 




kingnicky101 said:


> And I'm pretty sure my turtles would not be breeding if they weren't healthy.


See my comments on carriers.. as a further issue, stress may also a induce good reproductiton in captive animals, this has held true to a wide variety of taxa so breeding isn't necessarily an indication of health. 




kingnicky101 said:


> Also, my gulf coasts are F1's from wc's collected from southern Florida, and my Florida's are F2's from wc grandparents from southern Florida. So I'm pretty sure these two species encounter each other in the wild and pathogens from their range will NOT be a problem, unless you think otherwise than what is stated in "North American Box Turtles A Natural History" written by C. Kenneth Dodd, who knows more about box turtles than you or me..


So they are descendents of animals that were aquired during the intial outbreaks of mycoplasma in Florida? 

You are attempting to change the argument slightly as I never said that Gulf Coasts and Florida box turtles didn't overlap within thier range however this doesn't invalidate what I did specifically state on that case which I am repeating here....

Captive bred from the same source does not remove the risk as some viral factors are potentially transmitted from invertebrate hosts and there is the real risk of verticle transmission... 
Actually these pathogens can readily be maintained via one or more asymtomatic carriers in the collection and manifest upon being exposed to a stressor..or infection with a novel stressed host... With respect to cryptosporidia infection in chelonians.. chelonians normally do not demonstrate the same symptoms as other reptiles and often act as important vectors in introducing it to captive collections as it is easy to underestimate the risk of cross infection due to the persistance of cryptosporidia cysts (and thier resistance to all common disinfectants except straight household ammonia and live steam..) 
The only way to be sure you are not harboring mycoplasma or a virus is via either bloodtest or swabbing with a ELISA or PCR test.. with respect to the cryptosporidia, you would need to check via multiple fecals to see if you can catch it during a period of active shedding.. with respect to the viral pathogens.. blood tests specifically for those pathogens. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

and to repeat it again 

So tell me which is the worse scenario.. discovering after the fact that there was a probability you did introduce a pathogen into your collection, the local ecosystem or another person's collection or taking the proper precautions? If I'm wrong, then I've only wasted my time, if your wrong, it has much greater implications.


----------



## Tony

Ed said:


> Yep, treat with bleach, dechlorinate via aquarium dechlorinator or filtering over carbon and discard...


What is the reason behind dechlorinating the treated wastewater?


----------



## Ed

Tony said:


> What is the reason behind dechlorinating the treated wastewater?


In short to remove/reduce the effect of passing along chlorinated compounds into the water stream. In some older cities and town, rainfall can cause the septic systems to discard raw sewage into the local waterways and while the chlorine is diluted out by the rain there is the problem of secondary chlorinated compounds forming by reacting with other organics (say forming chloroform). 

If you have a large enough collection, depending on distance to the septic treatment plant dumping a large amount of chlorinated water into the system (particuarly if heavily chlorinated) may not be appreciated by your local municipality. 

In addition, if you are on a septic system then dumping a bunch of chlorine into the system will not be appreciated by the microbes. 

Ed


----------



## Occidentalis

I was under the impression that OCl quickly degraded and any chlorine bound up with Na in the environment. Also, wouldn't any excess free chlorine evaporate within a few hours?


----------



## Tony

Thanks Ed. I have a fairly small collection, producing at most three gallons of waste water in a day, but normally about one gallon, which I flush down the toilet. I wouldn't think that my wastewater is any worse than the toilet cleaning products which also go into the same system. Am I correct in my assumption or should I start dechlorinating?


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## Marinarawr

I know it was a few pages back but I just wanted to add that I really like this little snip:



Deadly_Kermit said:


> Bottom line though, is that the physical and mental health of the animals is the most important thing.
> DON'T try to mix without prior experience with both species, or you will not be able to identify signs of stress.
> THINK about what you are doing. Don't try to mix species that might eat one another, or species from different environments (IE: Cresteds and darts)
> DON'T continue a mixing experiment if any of the animals show any signs of stress, separate them immediately if any signs of stress occur.
> 
> Also realize that this is an advanced topic and should never be attempted by a beginner.


An eloquent summary.


----------



## sports_doc

> Also realize that this is an advanced topic and should never be attempted by a beginner.


IMHO it isn't an advanced topic at all.

That would imply that as a hobbyist becomes more advanced [or thinks they are] they could attempt mixed tanks and the perils of such. 

IMO, as hobbyist become more advanced....the wisdom of experience should prevent them from doing this at all. 

The idea of mixing Cresteds with PDF's is ridiculous IMO. Sorry if I am sounding harsh.

Dont get my wrong....I _am glad_ someone is asking....I would hope however that they and others reading would be wise enough to actually listen to the advice they receive and not just dismiss it because they think it is simply the 'party line'....'cause it ain't!

We used to have a 'reputation score' so you could judge the advisor's experience level...now you fend for yourselves.


S


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## kingnicky101

Sorry, do not mean to hijack the thread people. So Ed, now mycoplasma is hereditary? Well my turtles are fine, you're not my veterinarian so stop acting like one. I have no trouble selling turtles either, I am referring to when you stated that disease can spread to my frogs, I'm sure that's a plus in the For Sale section for me. And you say you're not picking on me, so why not give it a rest because you're not my vet so stop saying my animals have this or that when you've never seen the conditions and perfect quality of my turtles. No matter what I say you'll have something bad to say about it Ed, I like your advice at the beginning, but now this is pretty rediculous, apparently since I have turtles they have to be sick because you're just the all around turtle disease expert. Sorry if I offend Ed, but I just want to say relax, you're not my vet, you've never seen the conditions of my turtles either and yet there will always be something wrong with my turtles. I just tried to make an example on this thread, and I knew somebody would find something wrong with it.


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## jubjub47

kingnicky101 said:


> Sorry, do not mean to hijack the thread people. So Ed, now mycoplasma is hereditary? Well my turtles are fine, you're not my veterinarian so stop acting like one. I have no trouble selling turtles either, I am referring to when you stated that disease can spread to my frogs, I'm sure that's a plus in the For Sale section for me. And you say you're not picking on me, so why not give it a rest because you're not my vet so stop saying my animals have this or that when you've never seen the conditions and perfect quality of my turtles. No matter what I say you'll have something bad to say about it Ed, I like your advice at the beginning, but now this is pretty rediculous, apparently since I have turtles they have to be sick because you're just the all around turtle disease expert. Sorry if I offend Ed, but I just want to say relax, you're not my vet, you've never seen the conditions of my turtles either and yet there will always be something wrong with my turtles. I just tried to make an example on this thread, and I knew somebody would find something wrong with it.


I don't believe that Ed is saying that your turtles are sick. He's just trying to get you to understand that proper precautions need to be made to ensure the health of the animals and other animals around them. He's offering useful information in regards to chelonians and no he is not your vet, but he does offer helpful advise on things that you may not have taken into account. It's clearly something that Ed feels needs to be known or he would not be wasting his time on this topic with you. I fully believe that he has the interest of the animals in mind and maybe there are aspects of your husbandry that need to be looked at in order improve the dangers that could be posed to the wild and captive populations alike.


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## ChrisK

Yeah I agree with Tim, Ed doesn't know the condition of your turtles but he knows tons of possibilities that you would have no idea about just by looking at them or by looking at the occasional fecal. I would also consider him an expert in the field - if someone with much more experience and knowledge is willing to offer you some great advice for FREE, there's nothing wrong with listening to it.


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## Ed

kingnicky101 said:


> So Ed, now mycoplasma is hereditary?.


Where did I say that? 
Mycoplasma readily infects hatchlings.. and depending on the husbandry practices, it could have infected the hatchlings.. as the transmission and disease processes were poorly understood in that time frame. 
There is a difference between hereditary and vertical/pseudovertical transmission.. they are not the same thing at all as vertical transmission does not incorporate any genes into the DNA of the host. While vertical transmission of mycoplasma (any of the three identified species so far) has not been documented in chelonians as of yet, it has been documented in birds infected with other species of mycoplasma. 

With respect to vertical transmission, ranaviruses are believed to be transmitted vertically at least in anurans.. and there are other pathogens that can also be vertically transmitted (for example salmonella) and ranaviruses are one of the ones I mentioned.




kingnicky101 said:


> Well my turtles are fine, you're not my veterinarian so stop acting like one. I have no trouble selling turtles either, I am referring to when you stated that disease can spread to my frogs, I'm sure that's a plus in the For Sale section for me..


If your animals have any one of several possible pathogens then yes it can spread to your frogs depending on your husbandry practices. With respect to the vet comment, do you take your animals in before you reach for your box of medications? Or do you treat symptomatically based on your observations? 

Oddly enough, one doesn't have to be a vet to understand disease processes, treatment and/or risks.. one just has to be a vet to make a diagnosis like the following


kingnicky101 said:


> know how to tell a sick turtle from a healthy one. .





kingnicky101 said:


> And you say you're not picking on me, so why not give it a rest because you're not my vet so stop saying my animals have this or that.


I have yet to make a diagnosis on your animals, I have simply pointed out that you cannot without testing decide that your animals are not infected with any of those pathogens that have been discussed to date. You are the person with the box of medicines.. you are the one treating the animals from that box, you are the person taking the place of the vet.. without being willing to acknowledge that there is a lot of information you refuse to even consider as being a possibility.



kingnicky101 said:


> apparently since I have turtles they have to be sick because you're just the all around turtle disease expert..


I have yet to say this... I have simply pointed out with references when needed that you cannot make that determination based on what you have described and treated. With respect to understanding disease processes, the information is out there for those who choose to invest wisely in the literature. I would suggest getting a copy of Mader's text Reptile Medicine and Surgery to start out with.. the first edition is easier to read for the layperson but the second edition has a lot of good updated information (I have both copies as well as a number of other references..) See my comments above on understanding disease processes... 




kingnicky101 said:


> Sorry if I offend Ed, but I just want to say relax, you're not my vet, you've never seen the conditions of my turtles either and yet there will always be something wrong with my turtles. I just tried to make an example on this thread, and I knew somebody would find something wrong with it.


If you did not mean to offend you would not be disparaging... 

When challenged you refuse to answer the points raised.. except to deny that there is a problem.... for example I am still waiting to see the list of pathogens that do not cause disease processes in chelonians or other animals... 

There is apparently a lot of supported information out there that you find unpalatable but that information and risks are not going to go away simply because one chooses to ignore it. 


Ed


----------



## Ed

Occidentalis said:


> I was under the impression that OCl quickly degraded and any chlorine bound up with Na in the environment. Also, wouldn't any excess free chlorine evaporate within a few hours?


It does but it keeps down on the incidental creation of more chlorinated organic compounds that can be much more persistant. For example in waste water there is probably going to be some level of ammonia and releasing chloramine into the water stream should be avoided. With respect to the waste water, there are often high levels of humic acids and these react with bleach to form various chlorinated hydrocarbons including monomethylchloride, dimethylchloride.. etc) and dechlorination will reduce further reactions along these lines in the waste water stream (I know small amounts.. but small amounts can count). 

The rate of dissapation of free chlorine is dependent on the concentration of hypochlorus acid and its rate of dissociation into chlorine. This reaction doesn't run that quickly so depending on the amount of aeration in the water, exposure to light, other oxidizing agents, the hypochlorus can persist. 

Something told me I was making the answer too simple. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle

Ed, I know it's a bit tacky and I have never read a thread where you've done so, but can you please tell us your credentials/occupation in regards animals/herps so that those not aware of them know that you're not just talking out your ass?

I know what you do, but I can't help but feel some here are uninformed.


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## Boondoggle

Ed said:


> It does but it keeps down on the incidental creation of more chlorinated organic compounds that can be much more persistant. For example in waste water there is probably going to be some level of ammonia and releasing chloramine into the water stream should be avoided. With respect to the waste water, there are often high levels of humic acids and these react with bleach to form various chlorinated hydrocarbons including monomethylchloride, dimethylchloride.. etc) and dechlorination will reduce further reactions along these lines in the waste water stream (I know small amounts.. but small amounts can count).
> 
> The rate of dissapation of free chlorine is dependent on the concentration of hypochlorus acid and its rate of dissociation into chlorine. This reaction doesn't run that quickly so depending on the amount of aeration in the water, exposure to light, other oxidizing agents, the hypochlorus can persist.
> 
> Something told me I was making the answer too simple.
> 
> Ed


Actually, this part of the conversation I find interesting. I work as an instrument tech for the local city water/wastewater division and this is true. The water that comes out of a well for the first 20 minutes is diverted to waste, but has to be dechlorinated before it is dumped.

I was surprised to read, though, that during rain events some municipalities can dump untreated sewage directly. That is a HUGE no no where I work and has been completely engineered out of the equation. We actually have more stringent requirements for the water that leaves our wastewater plant (pH, chlor, dechlor, temp, turbidity) than we have with the drinking water. That's California for you.


----------



## Ed

I really hate to post it....as it I feel it keeps people from weighing what I say without any preconceived notions.. as I can be wrong.. 

For the last 14 years I have worked as the Lead Keeper of the Department of Herpetology in the Philadelphia Zoo's department of Herpetology and for the little under four years prior to that I was a keeper in that department. I had the pleasure of working under/with Dr. Wright (one of the authors/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry)(who was curator at that time) which encouraged my interest in Herp Nutrition and furthered my interest in Herp Disease processes (which was already fairly high due to my background in biochem). Before that I worked variously as a manufacturing pharmaceutical chemist, a quality control chemist, a R&D technician in a Zeolite catalyst research firm, and in one of the largest pet stores in the USA. I've personally been keeping and working with varios herps for well over 30 years now, I've lectured to/for various societies and organizations on various aspects of herp husbandry, authored a number of articles both in print and on-line, act as an assistent editor for TWI's Leaf Litter and serve on thier Executive Commitee, helped organize several IADs and NAAC.. 

and occasionally act like a know it all...

That is all I can think of off the top of my head... I want to make clear, I really dislike doing this...


----------



## Ed

Boondoggle said:


> I was surprised to read, though, that during rain events some municipalities can dump untreated sewage directly. That is a HUGE no no where I work and has been completely engineered out of the equation. We actually have more stringent requirements for the water that leaves our wastewater plant (pH, chlor, dechlor, temp, turbidity) than we have with the drinking water. That's California for you.


It depends on your location in the country.. in older cities, the money isn't there to rework the sewage systems to prevent and its common.. which is one of the reasons they have to test fecal coliform levels off the east coast... Its on the list of things many cities intend to accomplish but in an old city like say New York.. a real problem to accomplish. 

Ed


----------



## Boondoggle

Ed said:


> I want to make clear, I really dislike doing this...


Duly noted, and thank you.


----------



## Ed

I should also add that I am a information collector and have a fair sized collection of herp books and articles. 

Ed


----------



## Wyomingite

sports_doc said:


> IMHO it isn't an advanced topic at all.
> 
> That would imply that as a hobbyist becomes more advanced [or thinks they are] they could attempt mixed tanks and the perils of such.
> 
> IMO, as hobbyist become more advanced....the wisdom of experience should prevent them from doing this at all...
> 
> Dont get my wrong....I _am glad_ someone is asking....I would hope however that they and others reading would be wise enough to actually listen to the advice they receive and not just dismiss it because they think it is simply the 'party line'....'cause it ain't!...


Hello to all, been reading this topic with great interest. I've never kept a dart in my life; I registered here because I have an interest in keeping a dart species or two in the not so distant future, most likely post-Xmas. Well, not so much an interest as I've made a decision that I will be getting some relatively soon.

I HAVE kept fish for 26 years: over 250 species total, and have bred over 100 of those. I am also an admin on an aquarium website. The comparison to mixing species from different areas of the world in an aquarium is not as easily dismissed as suggested earlier in the thread. I have had similar conversations involving the inability to supply the needs of species with disparate environmental requirements in the same aquarium, and likewise maintaining species with incompatible behaviors together. Often, I find the individual who posted the question, and subsequent supporters, unreceptive to the experience of others. I also find published literature I have quoted disregarded as if it had been printed in the National Enquirer.

In a sick way, I guess I find this thread a bit humorous, as I realize its not just in the aquarium hobby that naive and/or irresponsible hobbyists let their desires and egos supercede the well-being of the animals they have chosen to "care" for by proceeding with poor husbandry practices against advice to the contrary. I truly feel for and identify with some of the main posters in this thread. 

That is the reason I quoted the above post. I find sports_doc's post appropriate and applicable on so many levels, in the care of any species of animal.

Anyways, I'm here, pre-PDF, to learn to care for these animals before I take on the challenge. I'm here to learn from the wisdom, experience and common sense of those who have had success in their care and in breeding them. I may not like the answers to some of the questions I may ask in the future, but after 26 years with fish I won't disregard those answers. The well-being of those critters is what is at stake, and as I age, more and more I find wonder in the life of any creature.

I must admit I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment, as I realize there is so much more to it than throwing some plants and frogs in a tank and callin' it a vivarium. Frogs transporting their tadpoles to water from leaves, plants they'll use to breed, maintaining food cultures (Mrs. WYite is gonna love that), which species are more terrestrial and which will climb more, maintaining proper male:female ratios, territoriality, etc. My head's spinnin' a bit right now. Then again, I shoulda known better...

WYite


----------



## mtolypetsupply

Why, when the idea of keeping two incompatible species together is met with a resounding "NO", doesn't the original poster ask a different question. How about asking, "IF I were to try a mixed tank, since cresteds are a bad choice, what would be a more appropriate choice?" 

This does not just happen in PDF forums, I remember a recent incidence of it on a snake forum to which I belong. A whole bunch of arguing about why to or not to mix a certain selection of animals. Why not just ask for good suggestions if the plan you came up with isn't one with anticipated good results?


The Shedd aquarium in Chicago has put together a mixed viv with Dart Frogs and an arboreal snake. I think it's a tree boa, but could have been a tree python. OP, any interest in that combo? The people at the aquarium are nice, I'm sure you could email or call and briefly pick their brains about what they did and why they chose the species they did, etc. The worst they could do is tell you that they don't have time to talk with you... 

... and the worst that could have happened since my last visit there is that it didn't work out so well, and they now have a fat happy tree snake and no dart frogs. 

Hope it all works out for you and you find a solution with which you are happy and the animals thrive.


----------



## Tony

Ed said:


> It does but it keeps down on the incidental creation of more chlorinated organic compounds that can be much more persistant. For example in waste water there is probably going to be some level of ammonia and releasing chloramine into the water stream should be avoided. With respect to the waste water, there are often high levels of humic acids and these react with bleach to form various chlorinated hydrocarbons including monomethylchloride, dimethylchloride.. etc) and dechlorination will reduce further reactions along these lines in the waste water stream (I know small amounts.. but small amounts can count).
> 
> The rate of dissapation of free chlorine is dependent on the concentration of hypochlorus acid and its rate of dissociation into chlorine. This reaction doesn't run that quickly so depending on the amount of aeration in the water, exposure to light, other oxidizing agents, the hypochlorus can persist.
> 
> Something told me I was making the answer too simple.
> 
> Ed


Thanks for the detailed post Ed, I'll take that to mean even my small amount of wastewater should be dechlorinated before disposal.


----------



## Ed

Wyomingite said:


> I must admit I'm a little overwhelmed at the moment, as I realize there is so much more to it than throwing some plants and frogs in a tank and callin' it a vivarium. Frogs transporting their tadpoles to water from leaves, plants they'll use to breed, maintaining food cultures (Mrs. WYite is gonna love that), which species are more terrestrial and which will climb more, maintaining proper male:female ratios, territoriality, etc. My head's spinnin' a bit right now. Then again, I shoulda known better...


If you've worked with biotopic fish tanks, you'll find a lot of overlap in ideas and to a lesser extent technique which will help with getting you started. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

mtolypetsupply said:


> The Shedd aquarium in Chicago has put together a mixed viv with Dart Frogs and an arboreal snake. I think it's a tree boa, but could have been a tree python. OP, any interest in that combo? The people at the aquarium are nice, I'm sure you could email or call and briefly pick their brains about what they did and why they chose the species they did, etc. The worst they could do is tell you that they don't have time to talk with you...
> 
> ... and the worst that could have happened since my last visit there is that it didn't work out so well, and they now have a fat happy tree snake and no dart frogs.
> 
> Hope it all works out for you and you find a solution with which you are happy and the animals thrive.


Emerald tree boas don't bother the frogs and work well except they trash your plants as well as potentially disrupting egg deposition sites (if you are hanging fim canisters in the cage) unless you take some special precautions (not a lot you can do about the plants) but the frogs and emerald tree boas do just fine as long as the needs of the two are met. There are multispecies combos that work and if one is going to take that route, there is a fair bit that should be done before it is attempted... 

Ed


----------



## tasteslikechicken

Wyomingite said:


> The comparison to mixing species from different areas of the world in an aquarium is not as easily dismissed as suggested earlier in the thread. I have had similar conversations involving the inability to supply the needs of species with disparate environmental requirements in the same aquarium, and likewise maintaining species with incompatible behaviors together. Often, I find the individual who posted the question, and subsequent supporters, unreceptive to the experience of others. I also find published literature I have quoted disregarded as if it had been printed in the National Enquirer.


A couple of things-

For one, I appreciate you sticking up for the complexity of fish and fishkeeping.

I'm a little annoyed that everyone just assumes that I'm ignoring everything you've said. I wouldn't have posted if I wasn't interested in other people's input. That being said, one of the main things I was curious about was if anyone had actually tried it. No one had, but everyone had an opinion about why it wouldn't work, which is fine.

One of the things I hope you can grant is that fishkeeping and our understanding of it is constantly changing. Technology has done a lot for us- because of many of these advances (and the economic feasibility there of) more species are able to be kept by more people. Yes- this often means more mistakes, but it also means more successes, and at the bottom line, more information, which hopefully the community and the fish will benefit from. What always seems constant is that there will be debate and there will be rogue fish- sometimes which sometimes turn out to be the rule rather then the exception.

Again, I'm not saying fish are the same as frogs or anything like that. All I'm saying is that in the fish hobby there are a lot of things we wouldn't know or do if someone hadn't tried it (intentionally or by accident). Which again is why I was especially curious what others had or hadn't tried the crestie/dart scenario.

For example there is an article in Aquarium Fish about adding aggressive species to a system already containing aggressive species (specifically groupers). Basically if you remove the residents, change the layout/territories, then add the old and new individuals, your chances are much better that they will all be agreeable with one another. This is really a pretty well known aspect of fish behavior, but it was acquired through actually trying. 

Another difference in this situation (cresties+PDFs)which I feel others are completely dismissing is that in the situation of mixing two species there is always the option of separating them again. If I did put them together I wouldn't be throwing them in a tank and locking the lid. Logistically, depending on what you are dealing with, with fish sometimes separating isn't an option or at the very least is a difficult and stressful one. Poor condition or stress is also sometimes not the easiest to identify and when you do clearly identifying the variable responsible is often hard to narrow. At any rate I do think that ones ability to rectify a bad tankmate situation in fish can be more difficult than it would be for this situation. Basically what I am again saying is that if the crestie/dart combo didn't work out I would be easily able to identify it and separate them.

When you all try to reference the "OP," please don't put words in my mouth. I really did just ask a question.


----------



## ChrisK

tasteslikechicken said:


> Another difference in this situation (cresties+PDFs)which I feel others are completely dismissing is that in the situation of mixing two species there is always the option of separating them again. If I did put them together I wouldn't be throwing them in a tank and locking the lid. Logistically, depending on what you are dealing with, with fish sometimes separating isn't an option or at the very least is a difficult and stressful one. Poor condition or stress is also sometimes not the easiest to identify and when you do clearly identifying the variable responsible is often hard to narrow. At any rate I do think that ones ability to rectify a bad tankmate situation in fish can be more difficult than it would be for this situation. Basically what I am again saying is that if the crestie/dart combo didn't work out I would be easily able to identify it and separate them.
> 
> When you all try to reference the "OP," please don't put words in my mouth. I really did just ask a question.


Yeah but something as traumatizing as an attack might stress the frog well past the point of bouncing back. I heard of this happening within the same species of frog even though it was separated from the other, not to mention being attacked by a much larger lizard and then being stuck in the same glass box with it no matter how shortly.


----------



## Ed

tasteslikechicken said:


> For example there is an article in Aquarium Fish about adding aggressive species to a system already containing aggressive species (specifically groupers). Basically if you remove the residents, change the layout/territories, then add the old and new individuals, your chances are much better that they will all be agreeable with one another. This is really a pretty well known aspect of fish behavior, but it was acquired through actually trying. .


While it might have been aquired via accident in the pet hobby it wasn't that way in other sections of the animal husbandry arena. This is an outgrowth of the "Dear Enemy" Phenomena (which may not occur in at least some dendrobatids). This has been well known at least in the Zoofields as a method of introduction for at much more than 20 years... 




tasteslikechicken said:


> Another difference in this situation (cresties+PDFs)which I feel others are completely dismissing is that in the situation of mixing two species there is always the option of separating them again. .


If there is an EID pathogen issue, then seperating them doesn't solve the problem. 




tasteslikechicken said:


> If I did put them together I wouldn't be throwing them in a tank and locking the lid. Logistically, depending on what you are dealing with, with fish sometimes separating isn't an option or at the very least is a difficult and stressful one. Poor condition or stress is also sometimes not the easiest to identify and when you do clearly identifying the variable responsible is often hard to narrow. At any rate I do think that ones ability to rectify a bad tankmate situation in fish can be more difficult than it would be for this situation. Basically what I am again saying is that if the crestie/dart combo didn't work out I would be easily able to identify it and separate them.
> .



The ability to readily seperate an animal depends on how much damage you are willing to do to the enclosure if you plant it up and decorate in a manner that provides sufficient individual hides. It can be the same as with fish where to remove the animal you need to strip out the tank. In addition, to a lesser extent like fish, stressed herps may simply vanish into the enclosure if it is properly set up and the first sign there is a problem is when you havne't seen the animal in 3-5 days. 
As a further complication, stress in reptiles and amphibians (for a really good discussion on it I recommend, Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (Amazon.com: Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (9780412550805): Clifford Warwick, F.L. Frye, J.B. Murphy: Books) (and yes I have a copy on my bookshelf) can cause longer term problems with hormone and steroidal levels which can result in immunosuppression (rather will and not can). 

Ed


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## tasteslikechicken

Ed-

Really, settle down. I wasn't arguing or debating the pros or cons of the crestie/dart topic. My diverse on fish was merely an attrition to the spirit of the hobby and rhetoric in which I thought might be of some similarity.


----------



## Ed

tasteslikechicken said:


> For example there is an article in Aquarium Fish about adding aggressive species to a system already containing aggressive species (specifically groupers). Basically if you remove the residents, change the layout/territories, then add the old and new individuals, your chances are much better that they will all be agreeable with one another. This is really a pretty well known aspect of fish behavior, but it was acquired through actually trying.


Now that I have a little more time, I can expand on this topic a little more.. pulling all of the animals and resetting up the enclosure can be effective but success is going to depend on a number of factors, such as odors (if the species involved scent mark, these scent markings need to be removed before returning all of the animals as even though it may not look right it will still smell right...which will encourage further aggression) (and at least two dendrobatids (O. pumilio, D. auratus) are known to use olfactory cues to recognize home territories).

Resource allocation... (if the species are going to compete for the resources then rearranging probably isn't going to resolve the territorial issues) (this really isn't a problem with significantly disparate acting animals with a significant enough difference in shape). 

I teally don't need to settle down as I've really haven't gotten worked up.. but I do have to reiterate, the whole rearrange the territory thing has been around for decades.. 

Ed


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## ChrisK

Just so that noone thinks Ed is being unreasonable for advising against this combo (or any of the other subjects discussed in this thread) so strongly, check this out -
Ed and I spoke privately quite a bit about some Costa Rican frogs and he has almost talked me INTO starting a mixed species enclosure, blue jeans with hourglass treefrogs, he also knows that I'm pretty thorough with QT'ing, fecaling and treating if necessary before introducing frogs into a tank though. I'm experienced with both pumilio and ebracatta, they're from the same area in CR, they're the same size, take the same food items, one is nocturnal and one is diurnal, he has these treefrogs in large dendrobatid tanks at work and says that they don't even recognize or acknowledge each other, my blue jeans tanks are all large, we can go on and on.
So if Ed is strongly advising against mixing those 2 species, there is probably a really good reason or reasons for it. Really, the fact that one MIGHT WANT TO EAT THE OTHER is a good enough reason itself.


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## skylsdale

Ed said:


> I really hate to post it....as it I feel it keeps people from weighing what I say without any preconceived notions...


Don't worry, Ed: I still weigh everything you say with all sorts of preconceived notions...

Regarding the dechlorination issue, I remember hearing something at the local homebrew society meeting a few months back. They use Saniclean and Starsan, which are no-rinse disinfectants for people's carboys, etc. However, these products were originally created for the national beer producers--many of them traditionally used bleach to clean their commercial brewing vats, but the effluent from the breweries and the chlorine solutions they were using was playing havoc on the natural water systems. So they requested companies to create a product that didn't require chlorination and produce such an effluent.


----------



## Philsuma

Is this the "current mixing" thread everyone is saying I missed?

or is there another one?

Gotta catch back up


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## Ed

skylsdale said:


> Don't worry, Ed: I still weigh everything you say with all sorts of preconceived notions...
> 
> Regarding the dechlorination issue, I remember hearing something at the local homebrew society meeting a few months back. They use Saniclean and Starsan, which are no-rinse disinfectants for people's carboys, etc. However, these products were originally created for the national beer producers--many of them traditionally used bleach to clean their commercial brewing vats, but the effluent from the breweries and the chlorine solutions they were using was playing havoc on the natural water systems. So they requested companies to create a product that didn't require chlorination and produce such an effluent.


Thanks Ron,

I knew I could count on you...  

Do you know what the active ingredient in those sanitizers is? 

Ed


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## skylsdale

Ed said:


> Do you know what the active ingredient in those sanitizers is?


Five Star Chemicals (which created the products) states that Starsan is a blend of phosphoric acid and dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid and Saniclean is a blend of phosphoric acid and Sulfonate Oleic Acid. The material safety data sheets for each product can be found HERE and HERE, respectively. A list of their homebrew products and various information can be found on their website: http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/products.asp?id=2


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## Groundhog

*Re: Crested Geckos & Dart Frogs: Da RULES*

Enough is ENOUGH.

The answer on this one is No. And I am an avowed "mixer." About the only two things these animals have in common is that neither needs high temps--that is it.

Yes, many fish and herps can be taught not to eat certain items--not every herp is a kingsnake or Cuban treefrog. There are White's treefrogs and Flying frogs that will not eat smaller frogs; Bert Langerwerf's Aussie water dragons do not eat the anoles or hylids that enter their pens. Right now, I keep anoles, a flying gecko, various hylids and Emperor newts in a 30 gal tank. (Emperor newts are soooo slow....)

Also, I have seen Oscars that do eat their smaller tankmates. 

Fine--but almost 20 yrs ago, I had a well-fed Sudan plated lizard bite an adult striped plated lizard in half--and they had lived together for months...




CRESTED GECKOS are opportunistic predators, and darts are just about the right size. If your tank is BIG enough, and you can provide a spot with some heat and ventilation, I would try anoles and/or small neotropical treefrogs (like Clown's or Marbled), or maybe Atelopus toads, if you can find them.

Some rules:

1) Size--and not only because of predation. Accidents can happen, and big animals can and do induce stress. Yes, my water dragons do not attempt to bite small herps. That's nice. What happens when they go for the same cricket?

2) Environment--"tropical" is useless. Real organisms live in micorclimates (except, maybe, us...) A Uromastyx and fire skink can live a few hundred yards from each other; one on boulders, one under bushes. A dart frog can live on a stump, with a Phyllomedusa a few yards above it. In a tank, neither combination will work. 

3) Origin--Me, I subscribe to the European idea, and I do not mix species from different continents, where possible; the flying gecko is my only exception, and the others will be moved to a new tank. (Besides, it ain't natural to grow Cryptanthus with jewel orchids, but that's just me....) Which leads to...

4) Toxins--I am reluctant to keep Bombina's in my terrarium. I do not think they eventually lose their toxins like a Dendrobatid.

5) Temperament--You would not mix a 3" Ceratophrys with a 3" Phyllomedusa, would ya? Bearded dragons are notorious for biting off other lizard's tails, especially other agamines. I would rather keep beardies with blue tongue skinks. 

Small hylids w small toads--works
Small hylids w small anoles--works
Small to medium hylids w greensnakes--works
Firebellied toads w firebellied newts--works in a larger enclosure
Small day geckos w reed frogs--works
Flying geckos w rhacophorines--works
Water dragons w big frogs--works
Tree pythons w big frogs--works
Leopard geckos with small desert agamines--works
Bearded dragons, blue tongue skinks and/or ackies--works in huge enclosures

And--as anyone who's been to a zoo knows--

Small crocodilians w bigass turtles--works

But, how about--Fat-tail geckos w fire skinks? I ain't too sure--that Fat tail seems like a target for the Lygosomine eating machine. 

Or--paddle-tailed newts w firebellied toads? These newts are voracious, and will bite off feet.

I could be wrong, but I try to be careful.

Think BEFORE you mix.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

Do you relize how toxic Emperor Newts are? Your telling someone not to mix when you have not a clue. Emperor newts shouldnt be with anything but its own. My ignorant friend put a Emperor newt with a baby turtle and its toxins killed the turtle when the newt was in the water.I wouldn't mix anything that is a different species together. I dont think Pythons and frogs mix well. Reptiles should always be kept separate from Amphibians . Amphibians have soft skin and one bite could cause a bacterial infection. S ome zoos seem like the havent a clue about amphibians. Most I've been to dont have amphibians. 

This thread should be deleted, its off track and very annoying.


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## Groundhog

MonkeyfrogMan:

1) Please be polite. You would not like it if I took this as an opportunity to criticize your spelling and grammar--so knock it off. This is supposed to be a civil conversation.

2) I "haven't got a clue?" Would you say the same of Philippe des Vosjoli?!? For the record, he thinks it okay to mix Bombinas with other animals, and I do not. But that does not make him wrong; it only makes me more cautious than he. It's not as if I am recommending keeping Dendrobates with Phyllomedusa!

3) On Tylototriton shanjing: I have never heard from anyone that these are unusually toxic with other animals; the Bronx zoo keeps them with Theloderma, Megophrys and Polypedates. No problem. Are you sure the animal in question was T. shanjing? Or was it T. verrucosus? And are you sure that it was toxins that killed the turtle? How big was this tank? If there is any concern about Tylototritons, it is that they grow large enough to eat small herps. But they are not as voracious as Tiger salamanders, and they greatly prefer worms and waxworms. 

4) It was also at the Bronx Zoo that I saw Morelia kept with Polypedates. The frogs would perch on the snakes. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS IN HERPETOCULTURE that recommends against any of the combinations I listed. I have seen these at professional institutions, read of them from serious authors (like Des Vosjoli), and tested a few myself. If you know of people or authors who disagree, that's fine. Again, it only makes them more cautious. 

5) But the focus of this thread was Rhacodactylus and Dendrobatids, and I agreed that it is a bad idea. I was only trying to put the question IN CONTEXT for a beginner.


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## Groundhog

To the original poster:

1) I for one agree that ideas from aquarium keeping--especially biotope design--can be useful to other fields. The original question was not a bad one, but you must appreciate how predatory all Rhacodactylus are (And Cresteds are Gandhis compared to Gargoyles!)...

Hell--I once had a Phelsuma m. grandis that hunted and ate my Rasbora kalachroma (that's right--the big Rasboras)!!!!

2) In my first reply, I meant to say "Oscars that do NOT eat their smaller tankmates." I have seen this more than once.


Is there a thread to the gist of "What can I mix with Dartfrogs if the tank is $%#@!HUGE?" The only things I have seen mixed with darts are treefrogs of the genus Dendrosophus, Atelopus toads, big snakes and fish.


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> 3) On Tylototriton shanjing: I have never heard from anyone that these are unusually toxic with other animals; the Bronx zoo keeps them with Theloderma, Megophrys and Polypedates. No problem. Are you sure the animal in question was T. shanjing? Or was it T. verrucosus? And are you sure that it was toxins that killed the turtle? How big was this tank? If there is any concern about Tylototritons, it is that they grow large enough to eat small herps. But they are not as voracious as Tiger salamanders, and they greatly prefer worms and waxworms.


T. shanjing are actually pretty hot.. the "warts" on thier backs and heads are venom glands.. (see the complete articles for these abstracts Biological activities of skin secretions of the sa... [J Nat Toxins. 2002] - PubMed result and JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie) 




Groundhog said:


> 4) It was also at the Bronx Zoo that I saw Morelia kept with Polypedates. The frogs would perch on the snakes. THERE IS NO CONSENSUS IN HERPETOCULTURE that recommends against any of the combinations I listed. I have seen these at professional institutions, read of them from serious authors (like Des Vosjoli), and tested a few myself. If you know of people or authors who disagree, that's fine. Again, it only makes them more cautious.


Normally Morelia are not great choices for tankmates for amphibians as many species of Morelia are known to be amphibian predators at least in some portion of their life and these dietary choices often carry over into thier adult life. 
Emerald Treeboas (Corallus caninius) are usually a better snake/amphibian choice. 

[/QUOTE]

Ed


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> 2) In my first reply, I meant to say "Oscars that do NOT eat their smaller tankmates." I have seen this more than once.


This isn't uncommon as the fish that do not act like prey are often ignored if the animal is fed into obesity (a very common issue with captive oscars) as the fish become conditioned that food only comes from above in the presence of a owner but if the oscar becomes hungry or the "tankmate" becomes stressed and begins to act like a prey species this can change very very rapidly. 

Ed


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## Groundhog

Hi Ed:

1) On Oscars: Your point about "acting like prey" is an important one. I live with an animal rescuer, and with the exception of one pit, my herps are safe around all the dogs and cats (in fact, I have watched female rotties and pits back down when my male water dragoms bob at them  We have a pet rat who does not act like "prey," and the dogs and cats do not see it as prey.

2) On Tylototriton: Let me clarify my point. Clearly, this is an aposematically-colored animal! But I have never kept them with anything that would be dumb enough to take a shot at them--gold skinks, flying geckos, long-tailed lizards NEVER see them as food. In talking to people who raise them (like Mike), our bigger concern was their size. In my experience they seem to be polite tankmates, and I have seen them kept with other (mostly arboreal) amphibians in big enclosures in zoos (not 10gal tanks!)

The same could not be said of Rhacodactylus w. darts; why would the gecko understand what the bright colors mean? I know of no aposematic frogs on New Caledonia (in fact, it is thought that many Rhacodactylus sp. actually fill niches occupied by frogs in other places).

3) On Morelia viridis: I did not know this; I thought they were lizard eaters when young. Still, many lizard and snakekeepers--and keepers of Polypedates and Litoria caerula--will tell you that there a few herps that can be conditioned to eat A, but not B. Water dragons are opportunistic in the wild, and so are White's. Yet Bert Langerwerf and I concur that when well-fed, small herps are safe. (The same cannot be said for his Tegus!)

HOWEVER, I still would not mix WDs w small herps, for reasons of stress and accidents (what happens when the WD and the frog go for the same cricket?) 

AS for White's: It is amazing to me that there are White's that will eat a pinky, but let a grey treefrog sit on their head. Never try this w a Cuban treefrog! 

I am not a rabid mixer; the examples I list in my first post was simply to point out what can work, and why. I would never try to keep darts with red-eyes, or turtles w newts, or bearded dragons with Cresteds, or DARTS W CRESTEDS.


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## Philsuma

> Yet Bert Langerwerf and I concur that when well-fed, small herps are safe. (The same cannot be said for his Tegus!)


Bert Langerwerf is no longer with us....RIP.


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## Groundhog

True--he was a fine fellow, and I have a couple of his lizards. His operation is still intact, though. 

I phrased it that way because it is correct usage to discuss ideas in the present tense: E.g., "Freud argues that...." not "Freud argued that..." 

Incidentally, Bert did maintain some different species in huge enclosures: his water dragon lived with Polypedates dennysii (I do not know that Agama Int still breeds the frogs).

But the point of this thread was--IS--that:

1) No matter what your feelings on mixing species, no Rhacodactylus sp. are appropriate companions to small herps;

2) Even if they were, they all need way more ventilation than pdfs, with the possible exception of R. trachyrhynchus (sp?)--and one form of this gecko reaches 13"!!

Period.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

Ground, sorry if I sound hostel, but it doesnt matter if you put something in the tank that wont lunge out at the emperor newt. Eventually they will cross paths, use same water source ect....Ed is correct about shanjing. Plus its unfair to stress the animals out. Ground, you can make fun of my spelling and grammar, this isnt a contest who can spew out the most information and use other people names. You dont seem to understand that yes shanjing are toxic enough to kill other herps. By you listing all these examples you are saying it is ok to mix to lazy beginners who dont do research. Mixing should be left to experienced herp keepers. Yes they do it zoos mainly cause they have huge ass tanks and lets face it, they have the cash to replace the animal.. To a beginner in this hobby, they usually dont have something big enough. I think the mixing of reptiles and amphibians is dangerous. Another point, yea go ahead make fun of my spelling and grammar, my computer has a virus and Im typing on my playstation 3.


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## Philsuma

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> Another point, yea go ahead make fun of my spelling and grammar, my computer has a virus and Im typing on my playstation 3.


Can I put this quote in the "Best of.." thread.

seriously....it is a gem.

You are correct about the experience factor. All too often, we discuss things on this forum , not realizing that the majority of the audience is newer hobbyists.

Nice post.


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## Boondoggle

Philsuma said:


> Can I put this quote in the "Best of.." thread.
> 
> seriously....it is a gem.
> 
> .


You'd better. I am still laughing.


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> Hi Ed:
> 
> 1) On Oscars: Your point about "acting like prey" is an important one. I live with an animal rescuer, and with the exception of one pit, my herps are safe around all the dogs and cats (in fact, I have watched female rotties and pits back down when my male water dragoms bob at them  We have a pet rat who does not act like "prey," and the dogs and cats do not see it as prey.


I would strongly hesitate to include domesticated pack animals into the idea that not-acting like prey species as these can be readily conditioned to not attack animals in specific situations. I have Shiba Inus which have a very strong predator drive, and while animals inside the house are known to be off limits, the same is not the same for animals outside the house. I wouldn't want to put a herp out in the yard for them to find.... 

Cats are a different story but again depending on your actions can be conditioned to leave animals alone... 




Groundhog said:


> 2) On Tylototriton: Let me clarify my point. Clearly, this is an aposematically-colored animal! But I have never kept them with anything that would be dumb enough to take a shot at them--gold skinks, flying geckos, long-tailed lizards NEVER see them as food. In talking to people who raise them (like Mike), our bigger concern was their size. In my experience they seem to be polite tankmates, and I have seen them kept with other (mostly arboreal) amphibians in big enclosures in zoos (not 10gal tanks!).


I would be careful with the assumption that aposomatic patterns transfer to other herps. Not all herps have color vision with the same respect as primates and birds.. also one should keep in mind that many aposomatic pattern responses are learned and not innate. (A good example, are milkweed bugs, wild collected milkweed bugs are foul tasting from the alkaloids in the plants while captive reared ones on sunflower seeds are readily accepted until the animal is offered one or more foul tasting ones. Another notable exception are beared dragons.. they don't learn and are documented eating noxious insects including bombadier beetles and fireflies (included as a general example)). In addition, depending on the species what we view as a aposomatic pattern may not be aposomatic under other light conditions (such as UVA reflectance..) 

(and for the record, I've worked with shanjing at work for almost 15 years including breeding them...) 




Groundhog said:


> The same could not be said of Rhacodactylus w. darts; why would the gecko understand what the bright colors mean? I know of no aposematic frogs on New Caledonia (in fact, it is thought that many Rhacodactylus sp. actually fill niches occupied by frogs in other places)..


I don't think I've been a proponent of the rhacodactylus/frog mixing in this or any other thread... 




Groundhog said:


> 3) On Morelia viridis: I did not know this; I thought they were lizard eaters when young. Still, many lizard and snakekeepers--and keepers of Polypedates and Litoria caerula--will tell you that there a few herps that can be conditioned to eat A, but not B. Water dragons are opportunistic in the wild, and so are White's. Yet Bert Langerwerf and I concur that when well-fed, small herps are safe. (The same cannot be said for his Tegus!).


Neonates predate on inverts and lizards but in captivity snakes that feed/fed on lizards are a risk if housed in close quarters with amphibians. While there has been speculation that some snakes discriminate based on prey size this often breaks down in captivity as well.. 

Ed


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## Ed

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> Yes they do it zoos mainly cause they have huge ass tanks and lets face it, they have the cash to replace the animal.. .


I have to challenge the assumption here that to Zoos if it goes wrong, simply buy another animal.. you have no idea of the process required to get an animal if you work at a Zoo.. 
This is something that people often toss about who have no idea.. but since I've worked in the Zoo field getting close to 18 years now, I can tell you it is not even close. 


Ed


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## Groundhog

Guys:

Does this mothe****ker have a "Save drafts" function? I just wrote a patient, detailed reply, and it just disappeared. 

Where is the "Save draft" function? For that matter, where is the spellcheck?!?

Thanks, G







Guys,

Does this moth*****ker have "Save drafts" function? i just wrote a detailed reply, and it just disappeared.

Come to think of it, where is the spellcheck?

Thanks,

G


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## Groundhog

I am going to have to write one reply, than go feed the dogs, and reply to Ed about T. shanjing later:

Monkeyman:

1) I was not trying to dis you. Only asking that we keep the tone civil.

2) The combos I listed are from professional authors (Des Vosjoli, Langerwerf) and me. For anyone who cares, I am one of few people in this country to breed Corythophanes cristasus--and yeah, I did it in a 55 gal community tank in the late 80s/early 90s (the same tank where the Phelsuma ate the Rasboras...).

That said, how are beginners to gain knowledge if they do not read? Education does not only come from personal experience, it comes from learning about other's experiences (that is, essentially, the difference between a personal anecdote and a body of evidence). The combos I listed are tested ones. For the record, I am actually more cautious than Des Vosjoli: I do not mix Bombinas w other frogs, and I no longer keep animals from different continents together (and do NOT get me started on keeping Pdfs on jewel orchids  

Peace,

G


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> Guys:
> "Save drafts" function? I just wrote a patient, detailed reply, and it just disappeared.
> 
> Where is the "Save draft" function? For that matter, where is the spellcheck?!?


I've lost some very long detailed referenced posts to the ether.. sometimes you can recover it from the browser. Anymore once it gets to a certain length I highlight and copy it... 

Ed


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> 2) The combos I listed are from professional authors (Des Vosjoli, Langerwerf) and me. For anyone who cares, I am one of few people in this country to breed Corythophanes cristasus--and yeah, I did it in a 55 gal community tank in the late 80s/early 90s (the same tank where the Phelsuma ate the Rasboras...).


Multispecies can be done, but evidence for reptile and amphibian emerging infectious diseases and parasites is starting to point rather strongly towards animals that are housed in the same enclosure (and unless precautions are taken, the same environs) to be as close to the same geographic region as possible (simply based on continents is not sufficient any more). For those who are interested in some examples, I suggest reading up on herp iridoviruses, and mycoplasma in Terrapene and Tortoises. 



Groundhog said:


> That said, how are beginners to gain knowledge if they do not read? Education does not only come from personal experience, it comes from learning about other's experiences (that is, essentially, the difference between a personal anecdote and a body of evidence). The combos I listed are tested ones. For the record, I am actually more cautious than Des Vosjoli: I do not mix Bombinas w other frogs, and I no longer keep animals from different continents together (and do NOT get me started on keeping Pdfs on jewel orchids
> 
> Peace,
> 
> G


The ability to read about a lot of this wasn't really available when I really first got started (now over 30 years ago) in herps.. it was all learned by trial and error, phone calls, and snail mail (if you were lucky).. 

Ed


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## Groundhog

Thank You Mr. Ed!

Okay, first of all ,I do not think we disagree here on the main point: Do NOT mix Rhacodactylus with smaller herps.

Some Qs:

1) At the Bronx Zoo, they keep T. shanjing w Megophrys, Polypedates and Theloderma (2-3 of each). All long term except the Theloderma. Tank is vertical, looks to be approx 100-125 gal (my estimate), w smallish pools on the bottom. (I take it you do know Bill Holmstrom?)

They also keep P. terribilis with Atelopus, in a horizontal tank maybe 2X that size.

In your professional opinion, do you disapprove of these setups? More to the point, are there any combos at the Philly Zoo that you (can publicly) disagree with?

2) Color Vision: From everything I have read, amphibians, reptiles and birds see color better than most mammals (many primates the exception). Hence all the crests, dewlaps, side flashing, warning colors, etc. Lizards and snakes see into ultraviolet (many snakes see well, but are nearsighted, maybe within 15'). 

Is this not correct?

To be con't...


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## Groundhog

(Con't).

3) Aposematism: I did not dispute you here. Feed a Bearded dragon a firefly and you won't get to the vet in time; conversely, chickens can eat red efts with impunity. And there are dogs that never learn about skunks!!

But I have never seen any Asian herp--gold skink, flying gecko, long-tailed lizard, baby water dragon--take a shot at an emperor newt. It is not as if I tried to keep the emperor with a Budgett's frog or a small carnivorous turtle. 

4) Animals do learn, and herps are not as dumb as one might think. Unless one is an "obligate generalist," e.g., Cuban TFs, Kingsnakes, I personally find it rather easy to train herps to eat A and B, but you ain't allowed to eat C. I have White's TFs, and I have had L. infrafrenata and 2 Polypedates sp. Not one hit a small frog or lizard. But Cubans, Leptopelis, Kassina maculata? All known frog eaters.

My WDs are well-behaved, but I have seen plated lizards eat fairly large animals by ripping them into suitable pieces. NO ONE SHOULD EVER SAY "it works for me, therefore it must work everyone." At the same time, I am sure we have all seen on Youtube the video of the Burmese kid w the 16 1/2' python. Does anyone think that kid is in any real danger? His parents taught the snake to only eat dead food. (Of course, it is a possibility--as is one of our dogs turning. But I feel safe. I have also learned that sometimes a tame wild animal can be tamer than a domesticate.) That said, I do not think Burmese pythons are suitable pets for most beginners. 

I have let my Water Dragons, Big Treefrogs, Ball Python and Tilqua freeroam, sometimes together and w mammals around (in warm weather, adult WDs will bitchslap cats). The only problems are between thew male Green and male Aussie WD, or between the Tiliqua and the WDs. And it's true, btw, the more room they have, the more reason to fight! But that is territorial, not predation, and they can easily avoid each other.

Having said that, I do not recommend keeping WDs with small herps, or Big treefrogs with little ones. Stress, accidents, are all real possibilities. And for the record, I do not try pdfs as my tanks are too warm in the summer. 

But I sometimes feel that pdf fanciers extrapolate from THEIR area to ALL herpetoculture, as in "OMG you keep collared lizards w a chuckwalla?!?" or "You cannot keep Day geckos, even small ones, w reed frogs."

Again, that said, I support the consensus on this thread--do NOT mix Rhacodactylus sp. w smaller herps.

Peace.


----------



## Ed

Groundhog said:


> Thank You Mr. Ed!
> 
> 1) At the Bronx Zoo, they keep T. shanjing w Megophrys, Polypedates and Theloderma (2-3 of each). All long term except the Theloderma. Tank is vertical, looks to be approx 100-125 gal (my estimate), w smallish pools on the bottom. (I take it you do know Bill Holmstrom?).


I have met Bill several times over the years but I think Jen Pramuk has a little more to say about the amphibian enclosures.... 
While I personally wouldn't put shanjing in with that combination, this is different than the discussion where I entered the conversation about toxicity and multicontinental multispecies enclosures. I don't think my position anywhere has been that shanjing can't be kept with other species.. see below for more comments.



Groundhog said:


> They also keep P. terribilis with Atelopus, in a horizontal tank maybe 2X that size..


And I've kept A. zeteki in with Abronia graminea as well as several other species.. but if you are using this as an example of toxins being okay both species lose thier toxicity in captivity. Also any communal housing of Atelopus zeteki is supposed to be discussed with the Golden Frog TAG chair. 



Groundhog said:


> In your professional opinion, do you disapprove of these setups? More to the point, are there any combos at the Philly Zoo that you (can publicly) disagree with?.


Actually no.. there aren't any at work I disagree with (and I've been the primary person behind setting up the amphibian enclosures that have multispecies in them...).. 



Groundhog said:


> 2) Color Vision: From everything I have read, amphibians, reptiles and birds see color better than most mammals (many primates the exception). Hence all the crests, dewlaps, side flashing, warning colors, etc. Lizards and snakes see into ultraviolet (many snakes see well, but are nearsighted, maybe within 15').
> 
> Is this not correct?
> 
> To be con't...


You are making a assumption that a black and orange pattern is automatically aposomatic but aposmatic patterns only come into play after the animal has learned that the pattern means it tastes bad or is deadly.. 

Better than most mammals doesn't mean that it is going to be aposomatic to other animals.. for example, L. alterna color variations (such as black and orange/grey and orange) often closely mimic the local pygmy rattlesnake pattens but only if viewed in black and white.. and are not mimics of any of the other local venomous species... So the aposomatic pattern of black and orange should not be over generalized... 

Ed


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> (Con't).
> 
> 3) Aposematism: I did not dispute you here. Feed a Bearded dragon a firefly and you won't get to the vet in time; conversely, chickens can eat red efts with impunity. .


This isn't supported in the literature as chickens are not immune to tetrodotoxin and the analog 6-epitetrodotoxin.. Now populations differ on the levels of toxins in thier skin and this can result in animals not dieing from ingestion of the efts but the literature is full of references where chickens rejected the efts on tasting them.. (for example see JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie




Groundhog said:


> ( 4) Animals do learn, and herps are not as dumb as one might think. Unless one is an "obligate generalist," e.g., Cuban TFs, Kingsnakes, I personally find it rather easy to train herps to eat A and B, but you ain't allowed to eat C. I have White's TFs, and I have had L. infrafrenata and 2 Polypedates sp. Not one hit a small frog or lizard. But Cubans, Leptopelis, Kassina maculata? All known frog eaters.


I am aware of a number of attempts to house species together that worked at one Zoo and failed at another.. for example, one Zoo attempted to house chuckwallas with adult western diamondbacks and gila monsters and despite the diamond backs being close to obesity with regular feedings, the chucks were bitten and attempted to be consumed.. there was an exhibit at one zoo where black rat snakes were housed with Eastern box turtles, and this worked fine until the female box turtle was ready to lay eggs, and the rat snake was discovered ingesting the head and neck of the box turtle, This was initially dismissed as a fluke, the animals were seperated for a period of time and the incident occured again the following year resulting in permanent seperation of the two species. A seperate exhibit housing green mambas and black forest cobras didn't last more than several months despite heavy feedings of the snakes as the cobras eventually tongued up the body of the mambas and bit the mamba in the midbody where the bulge of a ingested meal could be seen. I am also aware of 12-14 anacondas hunting and capturing green basilisks in large enclosures and adult 7 foot Dumeril's boas capturing and consuming Standing's Day geckos.. I am also aware of Parson's Chameleons, capturing and consuming adult Standing's day geckos... there are a number of other issues (like lesser sirens capturing and eating green treefrogs...) or the zoo having a 8 foot forest cobra consuming reed treefrogs in the exhibit... all of these animals were well fed... 

Amphibians and reptiles are hard wired to feed whenever food is available regardless of condition of the animal as meals in the wild can be very widely seperated... 



Groundhog said:


> At the same time, I am sure we have all seen on Youtube the video of the Burmese kid w the 16 1/2' python. Does anyone think that kid is in any real danger? His parents taught the snake to only eat dead food.


The dead food is likely not the trigger for the feeding response.. I am willing to bet that there is a seperate conditioning that they've done that triggers the feeding response. Many snakes can be readily conditioned to signal something is and isn't a food offering resulting in an animal that is "safe" when dealt with in that manner. I have a Dumeril's boa at work, that you can access from one side of the enclosure and not trigger any feeding response even if other people are feeding animals in near by cages but opening the other access will result in a full bodied strike (meaning I treat the thing like its hot (its over 7 foot and the last time it included the tongs when I was feeding it, it bent them...). 
.[/QUOTE]

Ed


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## tasteslikechicken

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> Another point, yea go ahead make fun of my spelling and grammar, my computer has a virus and Im typing on my playstation 3.


Clearly your computer is ill because you housed it with other electronics that are not native to its homeland and/or that the other electronics have caused significant stress on your computer, compromising its immunity and causing it to fail. I mean really a playstation and a computer in the same room! You probably have a tv in there too.

madman


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## Ed

Ed said:


> the midbody where the bulge of a ingested meal could be seen. I am also aware of 12-14 anacondas hunting and capturing green basilisks in large enclosures and adult 7 foot
> 
> Ed


This should read 12-14 foot anacondas.. not that there were 12-14 anacondas hunting the basilisks.. 

Ed


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## Groundhog

Hi Ed:

1) I must say, w the exception of the black rat w the turtle, I am not surprised by any of these incidents--especially the chameleon/day gecko (big malagasy chameleons eat geckos!) and the siren/green tf (I mean, w-t-f...) I am certainly not surprised by the anaconda/basilisk incident, and I wonder what ^#@[email protected] Einstein thought that one up...

But as for amphibians and reptiles being "hardwired," well, everything is, even us (for salt, sugars, fat...) Are you suggesting that, among Bert's Physignathus, one would eventually eat a treefrog? Why have I never seen a White's or a Polypedates eat a smaller frog? Just luck? (I am not being flippant--I accept that it could be luck)

I have seen animals (fish, frogs, reptiles) raised on insects simply not view their tankmates as food even when they grow large enough to eat them. This, actually, surprises me about crocodilians--why do such intelligent animals never view us as mommy--i.e., the gravy train--but some lizards do! (And it's the crocs that have parental care!) Do crocs never imprint? (I have never heard that they do--at least on us. Incidentally, I think this should be part of the discussion when people speculate on the putative sophistication of dinosaurs...)

But again, the only listed combo I would have tried is the box turtle / black rat snake.

2) Feeding response: I agree w Des Vosjoli here; sometimes, big herps show a flexibility and responsiveness simply not found in little guys. I have, and know others who have fed Burmese pythons dead food from day 1. Not only would they lose the reflex to coil, but--and I ain't making this up--when I would bring a live rat home, my snake would just stare at it and wait for me to whack it. EVERY time--and I have confirmed this behavior w others. 

That said, I do not believe Burms are suitable pets for beginners, kids, stoners, drunks, assholes, the disabled or the elderly. 

My 27" Aussie WD lives with a 33" Ball python and a 12 yr-old White's Treefrog now. Are you suggesting that one day, when I least expect it, I am in for a terrible tragedy? (the python was a rescue two years ago, but I have grown to really like him, and he seems to actually like me--initiates contact, etc.) 

In this case, I just don't think so. Incidentally, those of you who were at Frog Day in Staten Island 2 yrs ago met the Water dragon and the treefrog--the lizard spent all day on Corey's lap  No one there could suggest that these are not healthy animals.

(I think that this thread may be shifting towards, "Are these specimens, or pets?" I admit that the above animals, my crested, my Tiliqua, my Kassina are pets. The rest I treat as specimens to be observed and not messed with...) 

3) Chickens: Really? I don't dispute you, but I have seen it (Boo hoo...maybe they can eat 1 or 2, and I was laboring under a misconception) Would bullfrogs be a better example?


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## Groundhog

Madman--that was hilarious....


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## Groundhog

tasteslikechicken said:


> Clearly your computer is ill because you housed it with other electronics that are not native to its homeland and/or that the other electronics have caused significant stress on your computer, compromising its immunity and causing it to fail. I mean really a playstation and a computer in the same room! You probably have a tv in there too.


This has to go in "Best Of" like, now ;0


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## Groundhog

You know, I was considering starting a thread, "Can I mix lorikeets with arowanas?" 




....but I was afraid that some here would actually think I serious!!!


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> Hi Ed:
> 
> 1) I must say, w the exception of the black rat w the turtle, I am not surprised by any of these incidents--especially the chameleon/day gecko (big malagasy chameleons eat geckos!) and the siren/green tf (I mean, w-t-f...) I am certainly not surprised by the anaconda/basilisk incident, and I wonder what ^#@[email protected] Einstein thought that one up...


The reason I cited them is because they were examples that worked elsewhere and the animals involved were very well fed.. some to the point of obesity. Getting lucky with certain animals maybe the key in those successes.. In some of those the animals lived together for a long time before disaster occured.. the example with the green treefrogs and lesser siren didn't happen until after the two had been housed together for 5 years. The parson/standingi issue didn't happen until they were together for a couple of years (I forget the exact number of years off hand) are two examples of success for a period of time. 



Groundhog said:


> But as for amphibians and reptiles being "hardwired," well, everything is, even us (for salt, sugars, fat...) Are you suggesting that, among Bert's Physignathus, one would eventually eat a treefrog? Why have I never seen a White's or a Polypedates eat a smaller frog? Just luck? (I am not being flippant--I accept that it could be luck)?


Given that in the wild, thier diet is reported to be mainly fruit, insects and frogs??? 

I suspect that is exactly the case, you have been lucky..as whites are known to eat frogs in the wild....



Groundhog said:


> --i.e., the gravy train--but some lizards do! (And it's the crocs that have parental care!) Do crocs never imprint? (I have never heard that they do--at least on us. Incidentally, I think this should be part of the discussion when people speculate on the putative sophistication of dinosaurs...)


I think Siamese crocs (it was one of the crocs..) have been shown to feed hatchlings. The female will hold a chunk of prey allowing the hatchling to tear off pieces. I suspect the lack of imprinting on anything other than "mom" is mediated by chemosensory factors and since we don't supply those cues.. There isn't imprinting like that seen in birds and primates but there is kin recognition and some level of parental/offspring interaction. 




Groundhog said:


> 2) Feeding response: I agree w Des Vosjoli here; sometimes, big herps show a flexibility and responsiveness simply not found in little guys. I have, and know others who have fed Burmese pythons dead food from day 1. Not only would they lose the reflex to coil, but--and I ain't making this up--when I would bring a live rat home, my snake would just stare at it and wait for me to whack it. EVERY time--and I have confirmed this behavior w others. ?


Again, I suspect there is a conditioned cue that was missing. How many of them have fasted the burm for a month or so to see if hunger would override the conditioning? 






Groundhog said:


> Chickens: Really? I don't dispute you, but I have seen it (Boo hoo...maybe they can eat 1 or 2, and I was laboring under a misconception) Would bullfrogs be a better example?


Chickens are commonly used as a avian model for aposomatic testing and they reject the efts very rapidly. 
Bullfrogs are also not resistent to tetrodotoxin but in captivity are known to eat the newts. 

Ed


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## JoshK

Groundhog said:


> But as for amphibians and reptiles being "hardwired," well, everything is, even us (for salt, sugars, fat...) Are you suggesting that, among Bert's Physignathus, one would eventually eat a treefrog? Why have I never seen a White's or a Polypedates eat a smaller frog? Just luck? (I am not being flippant--I accept that it could be luck)



I have personally witnessed a WTF eat(and promptly spit back up) a Bombina orientalis. I have personally witnessed a WTF eat rather large Anoles. I have also heard more than one story of a WTF eating smaller WTFs and I also know people who feed pinky mice.


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## Groundhog

1) Hell, many of my pets like cheddar cheese goldfish...

In Bert's book, he discusses the wild diet of water dragons, but points out how they do not eat anoles or frogs IN HIS PENS.

2) I have had three White's. I got Bruce as a recently meatamorphosed froglet in Aug 1998. He eats insects, period.

As for Bombinas: In 1987 I had a White's and a Bombina go for the same cricket. The White's died. No more Bombinas... But he never tried to eat smaller frogs. My second White's was acquired as an adult, lived until 1998. 

In each case, conditioning to insect foods, and growing up with other herps, essentially trained the animals not to see smaller animals, that do not act like prey, as prey.
I would not be surprised by a wild water dragon eating a small lizard or frog, or a White's eating a smaller vertebrate. But it can be done, and in my opinion, rather easily. 

I would never pull such a stunt with Cuban treefrogs, or Cuban Anoles, or Plated lizards, or Tegus, or kingsnakes.... I do not keep WDs with small lizards, or White's with small hylids. But I do keep water dragons with big frogs. 

Which leads to the more important point, and I say this as a "Mixer" (if not as much as Philippe):

What made anyone in your examples think these work? I cited the example of the Sudan Plated that destroyed the Striped plate. This was in 1990, and I did not know better--there was no real literature or me to consult (except Elke Zimerman's book, still useful, btw). Since then I have seen warnings in writing. Had these been available--like we are trying to thell the Crested/Dart matchmaker--I would have heeded the warning!

--Malagasy chameleons eat geckos;
--Sirens eat frogs;
--many elapids are ophiophages;
--Anacondas eat poikilotherms, including fish.

This is all documented.

But I cannot equate a water dragon--essentially an insectivore--with a plated lizard, which is a true omnivore. Agamines do not hit big things and rend them limb from limb. Plateds do. 

Actually, when it comes to temperament only, I think it rather easy to come up with a list 
of "trustworthy" herps. I am not saying foolproof; I would have mixed the ratsnake and box turtle, and been flabbergasted by the result.

But I still believe my suggestions from my 1st post (reed frogs with small day geckos, anoles with small hylids, bearded dragons w tiliquas, etc.) are way safer than the displays of genius you listed--with the surprising example of the rat snake. 

Come to think of, I will create such a list. Just don't know where to post it.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

tastelikechicken........I dont really get what the joke is or what you mean by " Madman" but no, my computer is up stairs in a room over a garage , while my PS3 and my television are in my basement. So now that computer is down , i have to use my PS3 for the next couple of days


And Ground, what I sad wasnt ment to be written in a rude and non cival tone, I just came off that way with my choice of words. I will be completely honest,I feel half of what you are saying is right and the other half isnt. Josh K is right about Whites eating other animals. I too have seen (adult) eat a house gecko.

Little ok topic, Ed, I too also own Shiba Inus, they are wonderful dogs.


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## Groundhog

A side on aposomatism:

I undertand some is learned. Clearly, avoiding monarch butterflys is learned. But what of coral snakes? What does one "learn" from a coral snake bite? There is a hypothesis that it does not work the clear, simple way:

Coral snake--Aposomatic;
Milk snake--Batesian mimic.

Rather, both groups may be imitaing an intermediate model--in this case, Pseudoboa.

But what then explains flash coloring or the Unken reflex? Bombinas and Tarichas have no desire to teach anything; the lesson can still kill THEM. There is no evidence of inclusive fitness, where one is willing to risk death if it saves its own gene pool (like a clucking prarie dog). Is it simply a matter that they are betting their antagonist has seen it before?

In my terrarium experience, I had always found it fascinating how CAPTIVE BORN animals seemed to know who they can hit. I never saw an Asian Polypedates make the same mistake with Bombina. Whereas an African Pyxicephalus would get himself killed trying to eat the Firebelly. Never saw any Asian animal harrass a Tylototriton. Never thought much of causation; figured it was hardwired. ("Somehow, I know that means stay away, even if I do not know why...") 

Conversely, if they did hit something, they must have an immunity--watch how long a Dieffenbachia lasts with an iguana, or a pothos with a Corucia. Don't you or dog or your cat try this at home...

I wonder if what I witnessed were essentially coincidences.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

ground, how do you train your herps ? I am serious, your saying that you trained your animals to eat only certain food items while mixing species.


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## Groundhog

Monkeyman, "Tastes Like Chicken" was making a joke--it's called satire, dude.

Now, this the second time you have dissed me. 

I do not care if you are 16 or 61--please do not make it a third. I am the wrong guy to do that to. Please. I am askin' as nice as I can. I am here to teach and learn, not to hurt feelings. 

But even though I write this Xmas Day, I am perfectly willing and able to defend myself. I am asking nice. 

Disagree, if you must. But do not dis me again. 

On this topic, I have serious experience, and I actually do know what I am talking about:


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

I did not "DIS" you. I asked a question, because I truly find it interesting on how you trained herps not to view other tank mates(diff species ) as a food source. I think you can share that bit of info if you claim you did train them. 
Also I am being civil and honest on how I see certain veiws. I apologized over using wrong words, and sorry I didnt get the joke.

Also take it easy, I think you are taking it the wrong way. 

I asked you a simple question and said I disagree with half. You can say you dont believe what I preach, thats your opinion, thats what we do on forums, teach,learn, and discuss our opinions. Just because someone doesn't agree doesn't mean you should get bent out of shape over it. What you are saying is new to me about training herps, I am curious.


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## ChrisK

Groundhog relax or a mod might get on your azz. What kinda treefrog is that?


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

Is it a tree frog or a reed frog? It does look a little too larger to be a reed frog but the tank could be deseving. I have seen this frog for sale before last year. I m ight be able to find what it is.

Nice tank, It looks fairly new. Did you just plant it or is grown in? I guess I am missing the point about the pictures of the frog, it is 3 am.


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## Groundhog

You mean, to only eat certain menu items?

IT DEPENDS ON THE SPECIES. 

1) Voracious, apex predators usually cannot be trained

The tegu is named "Alf" because he does try to eat cats.... Why, Cause he usally lives at a shelter where he is fed carcasses ( not my idea)

I do not think I could train a crocodilian or a large monitor not to eat little guys... (But a tree monitor? With a Frilly? hey, breeders keep Bearded dragons with Ackies.)

Or a Cuban treefrog, Budgett's, Ceratophrys, or Pyxie or Tiger salamander

If you ever read "Eats whatever fits in mouth"--heed it!! 

2) Obligate generalists cannot be trained

--kingsnakes, anacondas, tegus, big lacertas, plated lizards, etc. 

These animals all seem to prefer variety!

3) Animals that have dietary preferences related to age:

--One cannot train a baby ratsnake not to want to eat treefrogs!

4) Highly territorial animals that do not like animals of their own gender (you dart frog keepers know this):

--Bearded dragons are tail biters
--Sailfins are tail biters
--Lacertas hate other males, and things that look like them
--Same w Rhacodactylus geckos
--Schneider skinks? How sweet--boys hate boys, just a bit more than girls hate girls...

So, who can:

--many insectivorous frogs
--many insectivorous lizards
--many rodent-eating snakes

1) With some frogs and lizards--and there is a literature on water dragons and Flying frogs--i ain't making it up--they often decide to settle on what you offer as food.

Yes, water dragons eat a lot of things in the wild. Yet I never had this experience. THen I read Bert's book, and I realized that I, deliberately, and he, inadvetantly, did the same thing: We conditioned the animals.

(THat's one of Berts' dragons in the pic above--ain't he cute?) When he and the green WDs were babies, they lived with herps, yet were well fed. They simply do not see the other guys as food.

2) NEVER let them go too long w/o eating--unless brumating. ALONE. 

3) Do not keep them together once the bigger animals get too big. I am not worried about predation--but what happens when the bigger animal and the smaller animal go for the same insect?!?

4) Do not feed insectivores lots of vertebrate meat. It seems to give em a taste for blood (and more importantly, it is not a good staple diet)...

5)Do not do dumb things like: Handle rats, then play with your lizard. THen put your lizard and python in the tub while you write on Dendroboard. No I have never done this. I figgered this out w/o disaster...

6) And this will be the most controversial thing I write: Talk to them. Praise/reward good behavior. Tap on the nose with a "NO" for bad behavior. I once, with witnesses, went all ape on a long-tailed lizard who kept stealing his (gravid) mate's food. Finally let him have it, good and loud. He was petrified. The other lizards and frogs just stared at me, waiting for their food. They knew, as he knew, my behavior was directed at him.

With snakes, I use hand signals and footfalls. For me, it has worked... 


Partial list of (usually) good citizens:

--Barking treefrogs;
--Smilisca
--Litoria infrafrenata
--Rana erythrea
--Many Polypedates and Rhacophorus (I have no experience with Theloderma)
--Hong Kong newts
--Emperor newts
--Corythophanes
--Water dragons, if acquired young
--Gold skinks
--Tree skinks (Lamprolepis)
--Water skinks
--Ameivas (yup, I know, weird...)
--Flying geckos
--Leopard and Fat-tailed geckos
--smaller Cordylus sp.
--Boa constrictors (yes I know they do iguanas in the wild. The tail is also a lizard lure
In captivity they prefer warm=blooded prey.)
--Ball pythons
--Greensnakes (I mean Opheodrys)
--Pituophis (really do prefer rodents, good w other snakes) 

Known bloodthirsty Dawn of the Dead (Ving Rhames version) psycho killers:

--Sirens
--Amphiumas
--Paddle-tailed newts
--Tiger salamanders
--Cuban TFs
--Leptopelis sp.
--Kassina maculata
--Budgetts'
--Horned frogs
--Pyxicephalus
--Ceratobatrachus sp. (eat frogs)
--Xenopus (duh)
--Bufo marinus (this does not seem to apply to Bufo guttata)
--Basilisks
--Leopard lizards and Desert collared lizards (both more voracious than green collared lizards)
--Bearded dragons (seem to like to eat green lizards)
--BIG chameleons
--BIG lacertas (except Gallotia)
--5 lined skinks
--Fire Skinks (wonderful pets, but I know of a couple of instances where they ate big Phelsumas--makes me wonder if they are ambush predators in the wild.)
--Schneider's skinks (nice w people, though)
--big Tiliquas (but okay with tougher lizards)
--Plated lizards (Gerrhosaurus major is a major predator)
--big Alligator lizards (esp the Texas. Wonderful pets with people, though)
--Sheltopusik
--Most monitors 
--Boas of the genus Epicrates (can be ophiophagous)
--Tropidophis
--Aussie pythons, inc Antaresia
--Kingsnakes (duh squared)
--Many elapines (But I will damned if I have not seen King Cobras kept as pets--with dogs and cats busting their balls--on nature shows....I think I'll pass...)
--Crocodilians. However, many smaller ones are kept with turtles.

Notice this is a much longer list??

Then there are the "tweeners:" Tokay geckos and White-striped geckos eat smaller lizards, but seem to avoid larger frogs. 

Also, I have never kept Litoria aurea, I keep reading contradictory info. No opinion here. 

And I know this sounds weird, but I have often seen Spilotes pullatus in big mixed cages. Go figger.


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## Groundhog

Oh that is a "General Treefrog" from Petco--couldn't you tell?



The only animal I have ever bought knowing nothing about it

(WTF--$9..99)


Corey identified it as Hyperolius glandicolor

Definitely want to find more--was shy for a while, but a good frog.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Monkeyman 

Merry X-mas, all!


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## Groundhog

Oh, the tank is six years old...


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

Its all good man. Neat frog tho.


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> In Bert's book, he discusses the wild diet of water dragons, but points out how they do not eat anoles or frogs IN HIS PENS.


Did he speculate as to why something is overriding the instincts of his water dragons over all other water dragons or what it was? 
Why would the assumption that the conditions in his pen be appliciable to anywhere else? 




Groundhog said:


> As for Bombinas: In 1987 I had a White's and a Bombina go for the same cricket. The White's died. No more Bombinas... But he never tried to eat smaller frogs. My second White's was acquired as an adult, lived until 1998. .


As a question, how did you determine that the insect and not the toad was the target of the whites? Simply feeding a sole diet of insects doesn't mean that insects are the only thing they will eat. Whites (and for that matter fire belly toads) are conditionable as to when to feed more than what to feed on.. The process of conditioning the feeding response (provided the animals are maintained at a well fed level (and this means that they are obese or are approaching obesity)) can cause a narrowing the selection of prey animals because those are the food items that are provided with the conditioning. In short, you have seen it because the feed response is conditioned to cues (which can be unintentional on your part) and the density of the prey species (crickets) is sufficient to prevent vertebrate predation. 



Groundhog said:


> In each case, conditioning to insect foods, and growing up with other herps, essentially trained the animals not to see smaller animals, that do not act like prey, as prey.
> I would not be surprised by a wild water dragon eating a small lizard or frog, or a White's eating a smaller vertebrate. But it can be done, and in my opinion, rather easily. .


The only benefit of "growing" up together is that you don't get a addition to the cage acting stressed which would be a cue for predation. What is probably preventing predation is some combination of conditioning when to be fed and being fed to satiation... 




Groundhog said:


> What made anyone in your examples think these work? I cited the example of the Sudan Plated that destroyed the Striped plate. This was in 1990, and I did not know better--there was no real literature or me to consult (except Elke Zimerman's book, still useful, btw). Since then I have seen warnings in writing. Had these been available--like we are trying to thell the Crested/Dart matchmaker--I would have heeded the warning!
> 
> --Malagasy chameleons eat geckos;
> --Sirens eat frogs;
> --many elapids are ophiophages;
> --Anacondas eat poikilotherms, including fish.
> 
> This is all documented.
> 
> But I cannot equate a water dragon--essentially an insectivore--with a plated lizard, which is a true omnivore. Agamines do not hit big things and rend them limb from limb. Plateds do. .



The same reason you are using as part of your defense on your housings.. it worked for someone else.. In your case you cite Bert's claim that his P. lesuerii never ate a small lizard or frog (but given the large numbers he was raising at the time, a failure to observe on his part should not be equated with it being 100% safe as there was no way to watch the enclosures all of the time.. or outside of direct observations know that it had occured....

You do realize that you are arguing you would not make those combination as the wild diet of those animals includes the animals attacked/consumed but disregard the same sources in the cases of your personal animals (Australian water dragons eat frogs, and whites eat frogs ? There is evidence that in the wild whites are able to uptake and utilize β-caryophyllene from toxin glands on frogs (and some invert sources) and transfer it to thier own toxin glands (which would indicate that anurans are a pretty important part of the wild diet..) (see Benjamin P. C. Smith, Yoji Hayasaka, Michael J. Tyler and Brian D. Williams; β-caryophyllene in the skin secretion of the Australian green tree frog, Litoria caerulea: an investigation of dietary sources; Australian Journal of Zoology 52(5) 521 - 530) 

.[/QUOTE]


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## JoshK

Groundhog said:


> 1)
> As for Bombinas: In 1987 I had a White's and a Bombina go for the same cricket. The White's died. No more Bombinas... But he never tried to eat smaller frogs. My second White's was acquired as an adult, lived until 1998.


 Maybe I am missing something here, but are you saying that because your WTF and fire belly toad touched, it killed the Whites?


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## Jellyman

Humans are known to eat frog legs. Holy crap. We better do someting before all our pets become snacks!!!!! We should not mix humans and frogs in the same enclosures. 


I'm just messing. It was getting so serious and on Christmas and all. 



If you have snow go shovel it. I spent two hours shoveling my driveway today. I love blizzards!!! First white Christmas in Ks in like 20 years!!!


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## Groundhog

Jellyman--that-was-perfect 

Josh: Ever see how herps constantly try to pull food from each other mouths? (I sometimes think herps DEFINE food as "anything that is in YOUR mouth...)

What happened was this: The Bombina grabbed a cricket. The White's, about the size of a small barking or big female grey TF, jumoed down to grab the other end. The Bombina held on, and the White's attempted to mouth whatever was there. As such, he did get the Bombina's head into his mouth for a few seconds. 

Now, let me point out--the White's went for the cricket, not the Firebellied toad. I saw it, and to think otherwise would be like saying, I threw two rodents in with two constrictors, next thing I know, there are no mice but one snake is trying to eat the other--ohiophagy, I say!

Uh-uh... What happens is this: The faster snake ate his mouse, than grabbed the other mouse in his tankmate's mouth. He just keeps swallowing. This does make him a snake eater, just a snake swallowing lie snakes are designed to swallow. 

Hence, I do not mix greatly different sizes together, regardeless of disposition. Hell, I have a min Pin /Chihuahua and 2 Rotties, and I assure you my lil PeePee gets stepped (although the dogs at least try not to step on the water dragons...)

I would hate to see an adult dragon try to get the superworm in a skink's mouth... 

But getting back to the orig Poster: This is NOT what we fear with Crested Geckos and Darts. The real probabability is that adult cresteds, with their big heads, will try to eat the darts. I dig my crested gecko, and he seems to like me. But I have never considered housing him in my main terrarium with my anoles, reed frogs and Dendrosophus (I know, I know, the anoles and Dendrosophus are to be moved soon, and the orig tank is to be all old world plants and animals). I do not fear this with my flying gecko.  He eats insects, and I do not keep tiny lizards like Lygodactylus.


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## Groundhog

The ^&$#%#@ Quote isn ot working!

Correction: I meant to write "this does NOT make him a snake eater, just a snake swallowing..."


----------



## Groundhog

Hi Ed:

Interesting ideas, and references thanks. I am now wondering if we have a serious philosophical difference, though. My own background is anthro/bio, with only some familarity with psychology and cognitive science. Always had more use for evolutioanry psychology than behaviorism.

That said, I do believe that many herps are simply smarter than we give them credit for. Okay, they do not possess a mammalian neocortex. But they can learn. 

An example: I have always scoffed at those who marvel at the complex behaviors of cichlids. Fine--but I have kept both long-term aquatic and terrestrial communities, and one I noticed is this: reptiles of different species and places can learn each other signals. Fish do not (and it can lead to problems).

Heck, our male rottweiler knows what it means when my water dragon bobs at him--and the WD knows what it means when the dog bobs back. 

Have you never attempted to employ some of the operant techniques you use with your dogs with any herp? I think some do work. I am not talking about all herps, but I have seen many that learn routines, basking spots, feeding times, where to mess, at least some permissible v. forbidden behaviors--and their names. 

There are other trainable herps, than that Komodo dragon at Washington zoo.

Case: Once had a place with great exposures, linoleum floors, baseboard heaters. Decided to use two trees (Dracaena and Murraya) on each side of bed, with water basins

1.2 P. cocincinus
1.0 P. leseurii
1.0 Tiliqua scincoides "novaguinea" or whatever
1.0 White's
0.1 Polyp dennysii

Boys, you're on your own.

With patience it worked; the only problem was this male green water dragon. never tamed down. Pete Weis explained why: Whereas all the other animals were raised in tanks, I never tanked him. I bought him as a baby and let him freeroam. Pete explained that tame big lizards are tanked first, handfed, then handled, then graduate to freeroaming--it is a reward... (that was my 1st water dragon--this prick was my 2nd)

I learned, and the WDs I have now are fine.

But the more interesting part of this was the frogs! They adjusted quite quickly. The Whit'es would sllep in the baseboard during the day, but the Flying frog was always in plain sight on a tree. The Whit'es woulld emerge at night, and hop around the house. When i wasn't home, he'd actually go the john and sit in the toilet. 

This animal is now 12 years old....

But the flying frog was in some ways better. When hungry, he (she?) would just stare at me. If I was reading, she'd jump down on the side of bed and look up at me. This was not a "specimen." This was a pet. 

And while the big lizards often bickered, no one paid much attention to the frogs. (I had only one husbandry fear--that the lizards would foul their water, and the frogs might need it.)

Now you ask about Bert's dragons. It is an interesting question, and any answer would be conjecture, not hard proof. But let me suggest: 1) that an animal does not have to be domesticable to be tameable; (2) a big consideration is cost/benefit analysis and optimal foraging theory. Why chase things, when the funny-looking bipeds will hand me food?
The food I really want!

I realize that I am suggesting that many herps can sometimes make DECISIONS.
I also realize that this is considered anthropomorphizing. I believe the problem is that we "anthropomorphize" too little, not too much--we are animals, too. I accept evolutionary psychology, but I often wondered what is meant by hardwired--the behavior, or the predisposition for a behavior?

No one suggests that a tame animal could be starved for five weeks and remain civil, but recall Katrina: after a few days, dogs were hunting cats. And these are domesticates, not tame wild animals.

I know that lizards are not dogs. I know they don't fetch papers. But many can be "trained," and become good pets in their own way.

Let me finish by saying that, while I believe the kid on Youtube w the 16 1/2 Burm is in no danger, I do not recommend them as pets for everyone. I believe the Youtube guy in Costa Rica w the 16' Orinoco croc (Pocho!) is in no danger--but private citizens should not keep crocs.

But who here who had a huge herp that sought out their company would find it easy to turn it way?


----------



## tasteslikechicken

Groundhog said:


> Hence, I do not mix greatly different sizes together, regardeless of disposition. Hell, I have a min Pin /Chihuahua and 2 Rotties, and I assure you my lil PeePee gets stepped (although the dogs at least try not to step on the water dragons...)


Wish my GSD was like that. He's great with the cats, the little dog, and the loose rabbit but looses his marbles whenever I do anything with the uromastyx. Also somewhat recently decided he wants to eat the discus. They confuse him by turning to face him and "disappearing" then re-appearing again when they turn sideways. Usually a really smart guy, but an idiot apparently with things in tanks.


----------



## Ed

Groundhog said:


> What happened was this: The Bombina grabbed a cricket. The White's, about the size of a small barking or big female grey TF, jumoed down to grab the other end. The Bombina held on, and the White's attempted to mouth whatever was there. As such, he did get the Bombina's head into his mouth for a few seconds.
> 
> Now, let me point out--the White's went for the cricket, not the Firebellied toad. I saw it, and to think otherwise would be like saying, I threw two rodents in with two constrictors, next thing I know, there are no mice but one snake is trying to eat the other--ohiophagy, I say!


Or the toad plus the cricket provided sufficient stimulus for the whites to grab the percieved "head" (which is how frogs subdue larger prey items) and begin to swallow it. Frogs (including whites) are known to attack and consume animals that cannot be totally swallowed at one time... There isn't anything ruling this out other than a personal feeling that this is so... 



Groundhog said:


> Uh-uh... What happens is this: The faster snake ate his mouse, than grabbed the other mouse in his tankmate's mouth. He just keeps swallowing. This does make him a snake eater, just a snake swallowing lie snakes are designed to swallow.


This is apples and oranges... 



Groundhog said:


> Hence, I do not mix greatly different sizes together, regardeless of disposition. Hell, I have a min Pin /Chihuahua and 2 Rotties, and I assure you my lil PeePee gets stepped (although the dogs at least try not to step on the water dragons...).


Examples using social pack animals that are all of one species (like dogs) isn't the same... 


Ed


----------



## Ed

Groundhog said:


> Hi Ed:
> 
> Interesting ideas, and references thanks. I am now wondering if we have a serious philosophical difference, though. My own background is anthro/bio, with only some familarity with psychology and cognitive science. Always had more use for evolutioanry psychology than behaviorism.


When working with herps, there are a number of behaviors that is a spectrum as to which are "trainable" or conditionable and there is a spectrum of herps for which training or conditioning works. For most amphibians, simple conditioning that opening the cage =food or human =food is usually about the best you can get (there is a keeper down at one Zoo who has been attempting to train dendrobatids to sit on a scale with a food reward for over 6 years now with no success...). To date the most trainable herps are monitors, crocodilians (and with crocs, the more aggressive the species, often the easier to train) and most chelonians. (I have a lot of practical experience..)
Feeding responses are the most difficult to condition as it requires training the feeding response to a novel stimuli and immediate rewards. For example, (and there are individual differences) crocodilians can be trained to station and perform different actions by tapping a pole and when the croc approaches the pole, rewarding them with food. The younger the crocodile, the better this training takes and you can achieve some surprising results. But is should be noted that true ambush predators and many amphibians this does not work or the conditioning doesn't hold. 
With raising crocodilians with turtles, this often lasts until the croc decides to eat the turtle.. and this is another one that can happen after years cohabiting (many different combinations have been tried at St. Augustine..) 




Groundhog said:


> That said, I do believe that many herps are simply smarter than we give them credit for. Okay, they do not possess a mammalian neocortex. But they can learn. .


I don't think we have differed on this.. but on the difference between what is learnable... 




Groundhog said:


> Have you never attempted to employ some of the operant techniques you use with your dogs with any herp? I think some do work. I am not talking about all herps, but I have seen many that learn routines, basking spots, feeding times, where to mess, at least some permissible v. forbidden behaviors--and their names..


They don't get "forbidden" like a dog or cat or other mammal would. The behavior has to be redirected but it is still there.. for example the dumerils' boa I mentioned earlier.. depending on which access that is used for the enclosure determines whether or not the snake will try to eat you... now if you go into the "safe" panel smelling of rodent or rabbit, you are going to get the same response (or if someone is feeding nearby..). The behavior isn't forbidden the stimulus is elsewhere. In the most trainable herps, you can condition a behavior to specific signal and then no longer give the signal to prevent the behavior but if this isn't reinforced on a schedule (that in herps like monitors needs to be a little more frequent than many chelonians) the conditioning won't hold (unlike many dogs..). 

\



Groundhog said:


> Case: Once had a place with great exposures, linoleum floors, baseboard heaters. Decided to use two trees (Dracaena and Murraya) on each side of bed, with water basins
> 
> 1.2 P. cocincinus
> 1.0 P. leseurii
> 1.0 Tiliqua scincoides "novaguinea" or whatever
> 1.0 White's
> 0.1 Polyp dennysii
> 
> Boys, you're on your own.
> 
> With patience it worked; the only problem was this male green water dragon. never tamed down. Pete Weis explained why: Whereas all the other animals were raised in tanks, I never tanked him. I bought him as a baby and let him freeroam. Pete explained that tame big lizards are tanked first, handfed, then handled, then graduate to freeroaming--it is a reward... (that was my 1st water dragon--this prick was my 2nd)
> 
> I learned, and the WDs I have now are fine.
> 
> But the more interesting part of this was the frogs! They adjusted quite quickly. The Whit'es would sllep in the baseboard during the day, but the Flying frog was always in plain sight on a tree. The Whit'es woulld emerge at night, and hop around the house. When i wasn't home, he'd actually go the john and sit in the toilet. .


And that is exactly how whites behave around human habitations in thier natural range... and unless the flying frog was unable to locate a better water saving perch (like a window) in the right temperature range, it is doing exactly like I would expect. 
and you conditioned the frog that you are a source of food... 

The tank raised thing, is a conditioning trick that works through stress.. the animal cannot escape from a predator and it either accepts the conditioning or it dies (for a better discussion of this see Welfare and Captive Management of Reptiles (Amazon.com: Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (9780412550805): Clifford Warwick, F.L. Frye, J.B. Murphy: Books ). This doesn't work for all species as some do not take to the conditioning (Nile monitors for example..) 




Groundhog said:


> Now you ask about Bert's dragons. It is an interesting question, and any answer would be conjecture, not hard proof. But let me suggest: 1) that an animal does not have to be domesticable to be tameable; (2) a big consideration is cost/benefit analysis and optimal foraging theory. Why chase things, when the funny-looking bipeds will hand me food?
> The food I really want!


Conditioned does not automatically equate to tame or domesticated. Lions can be conditioned to response to many different stimuli but should never be considered domestic or tame. 

Cost/benefit should actually lean towards predation on the lizards/frogs as increased nutrients should equate with increased growth, which would allow for greater monopilization of resources (best basking sites etc) and fitnesss for reproduction is directly linked to size in the species under discussion. And unlike the food being handed to them...the lizards and frogs have a better calcium to phosphorus ration, higher caloric density...... 




Groundhog said:


> I realize that I am suggesting that many herps can sometimes make DECISIONS.
> I also realize that this is considered anthropomorphizing. I believe the problem is that we "anthropomorphize" too little, not too much--we are animals, too. I accept evolutionary psychology, but I often wondered what is meant by hardwired--the behavior, or the predisposition for a behavior?


Depends on how you are defining decison.. if you are defining decision as an action that depends on the result of an thought process, I think we will disagree as any analysis past the action is going to be problematic. The "training" conditioning of herps is redirecting the behaviors via a acceptable cue and then if the behavior is not acceptable then the cue is not given. 



Groundhog said:


> No one suggests that a tame animal could be starved for five weeks and remain civil, but recall Katrina: after a few days, dogs were hunting cats. And these are domesticates, not tame wild animals.


This isn't a clean example as many dogs chase and hunt cats as they have not been conditioned to not do so.. so for this to occur all it needed was a few of the dogs what already chased cats to start hunting them and the "pack" would rapidly change behaviors. 

Ed


----------



## Groundhog

Hi Ed:

1) I still do not believe the snake example irrelevant: this is a common beginner's mistake.
Some draw the wrong conclusion that the snakes were ophiophages.


2) You really believe that agamines, skinks and anguids cannot get the concept of "forbidden?" Gee, I have often employed loud NOs, wagging a finger, tongue clucking--the classic "leave it, leave it, leave it--good boy, here's your superworm."..); for me it seems to work. The most amusing are the agamines, who bob in defiance...

But even with snakes, I have had them react positively to hand signals. I have no idea how it works.

Sometimes, I really believe all these guys get forbidden better than cats...

Philippe des Vosjoli tells an interesting story. He was once skeptical, but agreed to meet a woman with a huge retic. The retic would follow her, etc. Basically just accepted Philippe's presence, like any snake. But, if he made a move towards the owner in any demonstrative way, the snake would tense and hiss. I believe this story. He extrapolates from encounters like this one that many big herps (iguanas, varanids, tegus, boids, etc.) have a mental flexibility simply not found in small herps. (I am aware that there is no direct correlation between trainability, tractability and intellect. Otherwise dogs would be smarter than chimps...) 

Now, I do not believe that water dragons are ferrets, or that uromastyx are chinchillas. But I have met too many iguanas, water dragons, b & w tegus, alligator lizards, monitors, pythons and even spilotes that actually seem to enjoy their keeper's company. Not just food or warmth--Why would my water dragon bob his head at me then pull on my socks (on my feet)? Why jump on my chest at 6 in %*^#@ morning on a warm day and bob at me? Why run to greet guests? Why come when called even when full? Why follow me? 

I am not saying I could train a lizard "you are allowed to eat crickets, but not superworms." "You can eat goldfish but not swordtails." Of course not, this is silly. I fear this would be the result with crested geckos and dart frogs. At the same time, I am not the only one with tame, well-behaved big lizards that are not varanids.

3) Bert wrote of his Water dragons and their tolerance of other herps on a few occasions-especially to contrast them with his tegus, who eat everything in sight (including the occasinal visiting WD--according to Bert, even big dragons had no chance...) Hell, he kept Cynops with them, and the dragons were/are a serious economic investment!

Bert also noticed the same tolerant behavior in the Polypedates. So much so, that he suggested them as a safe alternative for IPM management, as they do not pose a predatory danger to native hylids (I am ambivalent about this; there are other dangers associated with invasive species). 

(For those who do not know, Bert treated most of his charges as specimens, except the tegus. Careful observation and learning was enough for him. But he admitted that part of it was that he had so many animals!) 

3) See, my real gripe is this odd idea that all herps should be treated as hands-off specimens, with minimal contact. Um--they're in captivity. Ain't nothing really natural about it. All organisms in captivity are subject to selection, even those we intend to reintroduce. Of course, many should be treated as specimens. I would never try to play with dart frogs, red-eyes, Uroplatus, small Phelsumas (or for that matter, any baby reptile until a certain size). Is part of the concept that we do not want to select for calm animals, who need to be wary when we reintroduce them?

For some animals, I find it beneficial that they are calm. They do not bounce their noses. They sit calmly while I clip their nails. They don't breathe heavily. If they're going to be in captivity, isn't contact a form of enrichment? Is this detrimental? I bred Corythophanes cristasus treating them as shoulder pets! (The key: earthworms). 

When I bring the dogs down, the water dragons pace, annoyed they can't roam as well. So I often let them join in. They seem to enjoy interacting with dogs (interesting personal observation: green water dragons seem to like dogs but are afraid of snakes, all the Aussie WDs I have met are more wa














ry of dogs and couldn't care less about snakes. I find that odd in an animal that comes from a continent with so many lizard eaters. But--surprise--every animal in the house smaller than the tegu is terrified of him. Only the rotties, 2 pits and 1 maine **** don't back off.)

My last male water dragon lived to be 14 and 1/2. My current female is 11, my male 6 1/2, my Aussie WD is 8, my tiliqua 10 (Dec 5 was his bday), my White's 12. I just don't see the objective harm. 

But again, to get to this thread, I would not try to train a Rhacodactylus not eat a small frog. I doubt THAT would work. And I am not impugning the intellect of crested geckos.


----------



## Groundhog

Hi Ed:

1) I do not equate "domestic" and "tame." I have seen some very tame wild animals--water dragons are still wild animals. 

2) I did not do what I did with the WDs because of Bert; I started doing this in the mid 1980s. However, Bert has bred over 17000 of these things, and I would not consider 17000 anecdotal.

3) However, I do consider the kid on Youtube with the big Burm and the guy in Costa Rica to be anecdotes. Nice anecdotes, to be sure. But I would never recommend either to beginners. 

4) Here is the only juvenile thing i will say: If chelonians are sooooo smart, how it is possible to housebreak lizards and not chelonians? (I actually know the answer; just felt a need to represent for lizards 

5) On to Darts: I have never kept darts, everything I know is from other people. They will not sit in one place for food? Are they that skittish, even long-term? Hell, I have seen Bombinas sit up and beg...

6) I maintain, however, that in terms of statistical probability, a rat snake with a box turtle should work more often than sirens with frogs, anacondas with basilisks, or crested geckos with darts.

7) Let me make clear, I do not dispute the literature on Litoria or Physignathus. However, I have kept Physignathus and Litoria caerula and infrafrenata for years (never had L. aurea, no opinion). With both genera, I found if acquired young and fed mostly insects by hand, they do not "graduate" to vertebrates. Repeat, In MY experience. I would never starve a dragon for three weeks, throw in an anole and expect anything but predation. (And I found infrafrenata to be even more of an "obligate" insectivore than caerula) 

8) As for the Polypedates dennysii. Hey, if she (?) was awake on a table or tree, and I stuck my finger a couple of inches in front of her, she would hop on my finger. If she hesitated, I tap the table, or snap my fingers and/or say "Now." She would respond. I never thought this amazing--just cute. 

9) You really think that we cannot speculate on anything "past the behavior?" That's a bit too Skinnerian, even for me. I employ operant conditioning--which usually works, with everything but human females. But for me the more interesting questions are intent, motivation and causality. I do not believe "the behavior is still there"--the predisposition is still there. That is what we are working with. I never felt that I could take a ball python and train it to eat goldfish and ignore rodents. 

10) Back to Crested Geckos: I would have to know a lot more about what they live with in the wiild and their predation patterns. Not necessarily gut content; bears and plated lizards eat a lot of fruit, and this does not make either a vegetarian! For cresteds, I would like to know if they are seen to jump small lizards or frogs, if they're cannibalistic, etc. I understand that the big R. leachianus eats whatever fits in their mouths, and that gargoyles are confirmed cannibals.

Still for Cresteds, with those big heads, darts just seem too tempting....


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## Taron

ggazonas said:


> Cresteds and darts are from two different continents .........If you really want to place geckos with darts try selected sphaerodactylus or phelsuma spp.


Priceless! I didn't know phelsuma were from the same area as darts either? 

I guess I can chime in, but first let me say I don't have any mixed species tanks myself. I however can say that we do have a lot of customers that mix species on a regular basis even though we tell them not to. I have a customer that has auratus and cresteds together and much to my dismay they are currently living fine. I say much to my dismay because the customer is always asking me why and how. I have no answer other than one day your frog will a either be gone or b be dead. I however also have a customer that keeps his anoles and leucs together and has so for the past two years. Of course he is feeding smaller crickets and he has even brought in eggs asking me to rear them. I really don't know what to tell you other than do what you feel is right. The only answer your going to get is........... don't do it! We are not saying it can't be done. It is Just that it isn't recommended you try to pull this one off. I wouldn't recommend larger phelsuma either but you could try some Phelsuma klemmeri or some Lygodactylus williamsi with larger adult frogs that can handle small crickets.


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## timmonsjr

I would NOT put them together. I have both and they require different habitats. Cresteds do NOT need the humidity of the darts and they need more air circulation. Crested will attack things which move in the night and an unsuspecting frog would fall victim. You staying up all night to monitor? They are from different habitats entirely. They also eat different foods - primarily fruit flies for the darts and crickets, repashy, fruit for the Crested. I have been bitten by a Leaf Tailed Gecko, which is bigger than a crested but the same mouth structure. It is very painful and the jaw is extremely strong. Frog would not survive an attack. 

Taking a "gamble" as you call it with species who are not meant to be together and knowing there are big risks for each is cruel and inhumane. Save your money and get two habitats and enjoy each in their own.


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## Jellyman

jubjub47 said:


> The comparison to fish tanks is way off based. For the fish tanks you're still putting the fish in an environment that all of the fish can safely live in. Whether or not they are aggresive with each other is beside the point.


This is really not true at all. Fish are from different oceans, different depths, different temps, some need large amounts of room to swim, others can live in a spot in a small corner of a piece of rock work. What the OP is asking about doing is what fish hobbiest have been doing for basically ever - taking a chance on two animals by manipulating the habitat in a way that both can "safely live in." It obviously does not turn out well every time but without anyone attemtping the scenario one we would/will never know.

That being said, I have no idea if it would work because I have no experience with crested geckos. I will add that I do not think 100% humidity is necessary for our dart frogs. I have maintained my humidity for over 10 years between 75-85% with zero issues. The reason I started doing this way back when was because I did not like the fogging up of the front glass. Strictly cosmetic for sure but I found out that humidity at 100% was not necessary.


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## Ed

Did either of you bother to read the dates on the above thread? The prior post was in 2010 and the one before that was from 2009........ 


Ed


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## Jellyman

Ed said:


> Did either of you bother to read the dates on the above thread? The prior post was in 2010 and the one before that was from 2009........
> 
> 
> Ed


 Sorry I did not. Did not even realize it was an 8 page thread.


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