# Mixing species in a very large Vivarium?



## zkontak (May 20, 2020)

I’ve been keeping darts for about 5 years now. The only ones I’ve had are yellow ventrimaculata, and I’ve successfully bread them out of a 12x12x18 tank. I was thinking about doing a very large peninsula style viv in the future. Probably around 200 gallons. And I like the idea of mixing different species. I completely understand that it’s frowned upon for numerous reasons, but I believe the correct combination of species would live well together in such a large tank. I have seen mixing done successfully many times, dendrozone on YouTube has mixed Santa Isabel with some terribilis, and I believe Justin Grimm’s peninsula housed a pair of luecs as well as Santa Isabel. Even Troy Goldberg has mixed some species in tanks. I was thinking of mixing a more arboreal species with a Phyllobates, or perhaps mixing 3 species in the tank. Any suggestions or advice would be very helpful. Was thinking about Oophaga, leucs, and Phyllobates. I also want to include a water feature where tadpoles can develop, will there be any competition between the different species of tadpoles, I know that some can be very aggressive. Please help


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Since you completely understand that mixing species is discouraged by a strong mono sp contingency, and mentioned watching on social media some individuals who keep mixed tanks - why dont you contact those persons about what you want to do and ask them?

They certainly would be able to offer their support in doing what they are promoting on their Shows, wouldn't they?


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

I think everyone will tell you not to mix species, especially when breeding is occurring because the frogs will interbreed and those hybrid frogs will then be problematic in the future to other hobbyists that end up with your frogs or anywhere in the line of progeny since almost everyone is not looking for hybrids but rather pure strains. And you could also have issues with genetics down the road. There is also an issue to possible conservation in the future which again hybrids are no help with /shrug

Others know way more about it but bottom line is it is heavily frowned upon.

Instead you should consider keeping a species of frog that does well in groups. Because a 200 gallon vivarium would be way awesome.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Or if you want many species get many tanks ;-). 

I've seen setups where the background/design flows from one tank to another creating an almost seamless effect making many tanks look like one really long tank.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I can configure 200 gallons in different dimensions roughly in my mind having been around cities of tanks all day since metaframes, and I must say that if it were within my means space wise, most of my personal animals, would be housed around that size - again as a single specimen. 

It is a large environment in a relative sense - but in a Cherry sense its nicely average.

Keeping "successfully" means what to who? Being alive and breeding is not a litmus of success. As a quick example I have an adult imitator with bilateral reduced foot formation - its not SLS - but a deformity. This guy was found in a discarded exo tank full of water on the bottom and thick with overgrown plant.

The guy who had the tank just let them breed and didnt know there was a frog left in it. Im sure that if sieved, the muck would have revealed at least some skulls of the others but i digress. 

Animals will breed if they will eat and if they are poikilotherms - add compatible-to metabolic-needs temperature. Sometimes you manipulate it a little for a frame of time.

But it isnt true that reproduction in captivity requires perfect conditions, and that breeding is a sign that all is well with conditions.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If you have the means to give frogs a good space like that, I really envy you, I wish I did.

If I did I wouldnt push it. I would go with the whole intense opportunity to create The Optimum for my chosen subject/s. 

Break off a big chunk of luck for some one


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

You will find very little support for enclosures with multiple dart frogs species/morphs on this board. The topic has been debated over and over and over again as you will see if you just type "mixing species" in the search bar. 200 gallons may seem like a lot, but it is really a very small slice of habitat compared with what these animals experience in the wild. That's always true of anything that we create in our house or even in a zoo. We can't even come close to nature. So, all of the arguments that you will find when you do that search still hold whether it's 200 gallons or 500 or 1000 or larger. The reasons not to mix species are overwhelming when compared with the one argument in favor of mixing - because I want to.

Mark


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Wild territories of frogs as small as a single male reticulata can be a full cubic meter, and if my math is correct, that's the equivalent of well over 200 gallons. Just about every hobby level enclosure (including ALL of mine) falls short in some way in providing natural-scale usable space. Sometimes I wonder if people like Troy with their legions of followers and dozens of tantalizing videos do more harm than good when it comes to educating the public on ideal conditions, and husbandry standards. A veteran keeper can get away with more experimentation than a novice because they can more accurately assess the state of affairs in their vivariums, and the overall health of their animals.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If you think about keeping an animal, have the project in your minds eye and the next thing isnt what good thing can I give them, but instead what you see is more "variety" in the same "multi mini Jungle" *This is going to sound rude so I apologize if it does but..* The mixed multi species scene is in too many cases an underdeveloped view of nature. 

Or it could just be something a person wants as a more sensationalistic decoration for home social life reasons.

Experiences have revealed the tendency toward rapid wane of interest leading to neglect and casual relinquishment - often only wanting to: Get another species to "work" with - Soon after - with those with the most stubborn I Want To mindset.

Its very unfashionable to look "Judgemental" but it will never be bad to have some mercy. 

These animals are magnificent man.


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

I have successfully kept a male Leuc, male Azureus, male Cobalt Tink and a breeding group of vents in a 72 gallon tank.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

TimsViv said:


> I have successfully kept a male Leuc, male Azureus, male Cobalt Tink and a breeding group of vents in a 72 gallon tank.


That term "successfully" seems to be thrown around without much qualification when discussing this topic. Did you do any parasite testing before or during your cohabitation experiment? Did you check weights on any of the frogs at any point? Did you observe interactions regularly during the process? How long were they kept together? Have you kept any of those frogs in single- species situations so as to gain a more thorough understanding of what "normal" behaviors look like? There are more questions that I would like to ask, but those should do for now.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

What does _successfully_ mean? What is _the correct combination_ of mixed species?

I especially want to hear about the all the species and the correct combinations. 

Will all the variables of terrain, env sizes, pathogen transmission, and hybrid preventing be discussed with all the species combinations?

Or are you really just putting them in because you like it? 

If so call a spade a spade. No need to pretend like there are valid reasons that can be explained. If so, what are they? 

Are you trying to save space? See what happens? Imitate the youtube guy? 

There is no honest explanation.


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## cobe (Oct 10, 2015)

Oh no......... Anyone that has kept a dart frog longer than 3 weeks and has read at least 3 posts on keeping dart frogs knows... You Should Not Mix Dart Frogs.... Just because "you know a guy that does it" does not mean its ok... Wild frogs can have large territories, some about the size of a small bedroom. 

If you want different species, get different tanks.....


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Dane said:


> Sometimes I wonder if people like Troy with their legions of followers and dozens of tantalizing videos do more harm than good when it comes to educating the public on ideal conditions, and husbandry standards. A veteran keeper can get away with more experimentation than a novice because they can more accurately assess the state of affairs in their vivariums, and the overall health of their animals.


I have the same wory for years.

The european frog hobby is absolutely flood with setups that are just not suited for longterm keeping frogs due to influence of 'famous' keepers and magazines, website that promote those setups.. 
Same goes for mixing frogs..

It in the end is just a marketing strategy of selling peopel the idea, vivaria and frogs by giving what the costumer WANTS and not what the costumers frogs NEED.. 

Every time I see Troy's new uploads, he comes closer to the european hobby standards. I see the demand for 'eurostyled' vivs increase on differnet socialplatforms every month. By eurostyled vivs, I do not mean only the sliding doors but the setups that are just to moist with lots on moss, waterparts, waterfalls,.. and no leaflitter.

Such a shame since I always found the american hobby way more advanced than the European. His and others 'famous' dart frog keepers influence on the hobby should not be taken lightly imo.


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## cobe (Oct 10, 2015)

Tijl said:


> I have the same wory for years.
> 
> The european frog hobby is absolutely flood with setups that are just not suited for longterm keeping frogs due to influence of 'famous' keepers and magazines, website that promote those setups..
> Same goes for mixing frogs..
> ...


I'm not totally in line with the you on Europeans= poor frog keeping as I think the Germans have been setting the standard for decades, breeding, husbandry etc etc... Regardless where you are from the issue is the fact that frogs are easy to obtain now and can be bought by any one. No one seems to research and they ask people that are self confessed experts when they have no idea what they are talking about.

As for the internet guru's is a new thing for me. Back in the day I used to drive for 4+ hours to hear a real expert do a talk on exotic animals, now you can simply go on YouTube and there it is... After an upload from a YouTuber all the plants that they had listed had sold out with three European suppliers and today the brand of vitamins they suggested has flooded my newsfeed with people trying to obtain these vits... I really enjoy watching these YouTuber's but I worry how much people hold onto every word they say and push aside their own ideas (some of which are great) and adopt the ideas of the Guru's...


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

cobe said:


> I'm not totally in line with the you on Europeans= poor frog keeping as I think the Germans have been setting the standard for decades, breeding, husbandry etc etc... Regardless where you are from the issue is the fact that frogs are easy to obtain now and can be bought by any one. No one seems to research and they ask people that are self confessed experts when they have no idea what they are talking about.
> 
> As for the internet guru's is a new thing for me. Back in the day I used to drive for 4+ hours to hear a real expert do a talk on exotic animals, now you can simply go on YouTube and there it is... After an upload from a YouTuber all the plants that they had listed had sold out with three European suppliers and today the brand of vitamins they suggested has flooded my newsfeed with people trying to obtain these vits... I really enjoy watching these YouTuber's but I worry how much people hold onto every word they say and push aside their own ideas (some of which are great) and adopt the ideas of the Guru's...


Well we have to agree to disagree then..

I do agree the case of people not doing research and buying whatever they appeals to the eye or mind. 

That's where problems occur..

People blindly trust retiple dealers or other frog enthousiast that claim to be 'experts' or 'guru'. Just like you said.. 
I know people that are keeping frogs for ove rmany years, sometimes +30years.. And they are all (self)claimed experts. When I see they still change their frogs every 3-5 years since their breeder frogs died (imo from lack of good tank setup or lack of good vitaimes, or whatever..) than you have to admit these are NOT experts at all.. But those 'exeperts' have been setting the frog standard for all these years and inspired other to keep frogs the way they do.. That's exactly why I say the european hobby is way behind the american hobby. In europe we have been following such 'experts'


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

My dude.

If you have to ask how to mix species or for advice on how to do it, you're not ready. 

Even then, for most folks, it's not worth it.


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## cobe (Oct 10, 2015)

Tijl said:


> Well we have to agree to disagree then..


I do not want to start any arguments on this it is just my observation. What you say does not equate to what the Germans and Dutch have done? They brought in and kept Frogs that had never been kept in captivity. Not only did they show the populous how to keep them alive they found out how to breed them and keep them alive for the animals full live span. We are keeping these frogs on the ideas these people had, they wrote books in fact I have old German books that are still used today. But you say the Americans are the best at keeping frogs? Thats like getting Gordon Ramsay to cook a great meal for you , then you heat it up in a microwave and declare you are a better chef than him... There is no agreeing or disagreeing, This hobby started in Europe....


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

cobe said:


> I do not want to start any arguments on this it is just my observation. What you say does not equate to what the Germans and Dutch have done? They brought in and kept Frogs that had never been kept in captivity. Not only did they show the populous how to keep them alive they found out how to breed them and keep them alive for the animals full live span. We are keeping these frogs on the ideas these people had, they wrote books in fact I have old German books that are still used today. But you say the Americans are the best at keeping frogs? Thats like getting Gordon Ramsay to cook a great meal for you , then you heat it up in a microwave and declare you are a better chef than him... There is no agreeing or disagreeing, This hobby started in Europe....


Yes it started here and we stoped devolping it. 
That's why thens of thousands of imported and captive bred animals still die every year. Our what reason do you think is behind that? The largest part of our tanks and supplements are not addapted to the frogs at all. They are only devoloped soley for marketing and sales in Europe.. Giving the costumer what they want...

What you say is not true at all. The life expence of dart forgs in Europe is very low! only a handfull of european breeders are able to keep forgs longer alive than 5+ years.. While the frog easy go 10+

In America, you got supplements like Repashy that are well researched. Amphid (herpetal), Dendrocare are suppelments used for the pidgeonsport but with differnent labels.. In America hobbyist have been using clay,the leaflitter,.. when I research this website. In Europe these hardly exists in the hobby.. Most of the standard tanks are also better adjusted for the frogs than the tanks I see here in Europe. Im not saying the dart frog hobby is perfected in America, not at all. But it seems like the hobby in America is not on a standstill.. Sometimes I think we are going backwards in Europe.

If Grondon Ramsy would cook me a pile a shit.. It can microwave it or leave it as it is.. It is still shit..


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## Erskine888 (May 1, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> You will find very little support for enclosures with multiple dart frogs species/morphs on this board. The topic has been debated over and over and over again as you will see if you just type "mixing species" in the search bar. 200 gallons may seem like a lot, but it is really a very small slice of habitat compared with what these animals experience in the wild. That's always true of anything that we create in our house or even in a zoo. We can't even come close to nature. So, all of the arguments that you will find when you do that search still hold whether it's 200 gallons or 500 or 1000 or larger. The reasons not to mix species are overwhelming when compared with the one argument in favor of mixing - because I want to.
> 
> Mark


I agree - 25 years or so ago, when keeping these beuaties was still in it's infancy (and I was thinner and better-looking), I successfully kept a mixed species vivarium for a few years. However, I kept only one member of each of 3 species in the enclosure, and I now realize that it wasn't a good idea. I'm sooo glad that there was no interbreeding! Imagine what i may have loosed upon the world, during a time when pdfs were just about all wild-caught! At the time, we were just throwing things against the wall to see what would stick (not literally, lf course) So much more knowledge now, and such better husbandry info, materials, and resources now to keep them happy and healthy. 
We also now realize that in the wild, a particular dart frog species probably never even see members of another species. Consider that fact that in any given sq. meter of rainforest/cloud forest there are many different ecozones, from the canopy to the forest floor. Thus, though 2 or more species ranges may geopraphically overlap, they don't occupy the same niche within that area. There is just no way to recreate such a varied ecosystem at home, even if your enclosure is enormous.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Erskine888 said:


> I agree - 25 years or so ago, when keeping these beuaties


Even back then on the old FrogNet the general opinion was not to mix species or morphs.


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