# Important? Air flow



## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

i'm modeling a 45 bow front. 
how important is air flow?
warm air rises. 
frogs will move the air. 
air is moved by changes in pressure. 
There will also be a stream that will move air. 
are the fans necessary?


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

I personally make sure everything is sealed up. I dont even care for the little vents on the exo terra tanks (the fruit flies use them to escape) but I think those tanks look nice so I have some of them (but I also seal the mesh tops up with glass. I dont keep any fans in there, when I first started I was really paranoid about it so I made a little hole up top in the plastic of the glass top and I set a fan there that pulled air out, it ended up keeping my humidity really low so I ended up taking it off and covering up the hole. I saw a post where someone put a fan in there that I'm assuming turned on when the mister pointing towards it turned on. Its my understanding the plants perform the good oxygen exchange.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

More important for some types of plants than the frogs you'll likely keep.

s


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

Thats what i'm thinking. the tank im doing will be air tight. glass top. 
but ive been seeing builds with built in air ducts. 
so I'm not sure if there's a huge benefit to this or not. 








this is the tank
if the flow is necessary i can just add a duct in the right corner from top to bottom.


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

Scott said:


> More important for some types of plants than the frogs you'll likely keep.
> 
> s


do you know what types of plants need strong air flow?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

air flow can be very important for helping your frog regulate their body temperature...

So depending on what kind of temperature control you have in the room you keep your frogs... it can be a necessity or you may put your frogs at risk of overheating easier.

As for plants, in my experience most ferns are going to want some air flow... if they end up with standing water on their leaves they pretty much melt, so the air flow will help the droplets evaporate. Some bromeliads need a bit of air flow around their roots or they will rot, but most in the hobby should be fine as long as they are not constantly wet


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

I just read somewhere that the fans also help with glass fog. 
so i'm just going to put one in. 

Now, Positions of vents and direction of flow... 
Whats recommended?


My idea was to do a vertical duct in the corner. sucking air from the ground level and pushing it out the top, at an angle facing the front glass.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Just to elaborate a bit on the temperature thing... fans in a totally sealed tank don't do much for cooling, you're still going to want some vents.

My tanks that I've had fans in always either just directed them at the glass or towards ferns, but I've never done a whole duct system so I can't really comment on that. I just use something like this for flow: DIY Air Circulation | GlassTropics


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

carola1155 said:


> Just to elaborate a bit on the temperature thing... fans in a totally sealed tank don't do much for cooling, you're still going to want some vents.
> 
> My tanks that I've had fans in always either just directed them at the glass or towards ferns, but I've never done a whole duct system so I can't really comment on that. I just use something like this for flow: DIY Air Circulation | GlassTropics


Nifty, 
KInda big and industrial looking, but well put together. 
a pad heater at one end of the tank with a thermo regulator 
how would that do for temp control. 
as long as not set on a high it should suffice, yes?


but i do see a vent as a benefit to oxygen levels for the plants. 
10 plants to 2 frogs, seems unstable. happy frogs, dead plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Its my understanding the plants perform the good oxygen exchange.


Except at night when they suck up O2 and release CO2..along with everything else respiring in the tank and yes, sealed up tanks are believed to have caused the deaths of frogs through CO2 poisoning... There was a study published in a European magazine/newsletter. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ed said:


> Except at night when they suck up O2 and release CO2..along with everything else respiring in the tank and yes, sealed up tanks are believed to have caused the deaths of frogs through CO2 poisoning... There was a study published in a European magazine/newsletter.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I did learn about this in aquaculture class but I didn't know it would be so severe as to cause death. Flies always manage to get out of my tanks so when I say sealed I don't inspect for open crevices. I would imagine the tank would have to be very heavily planted, have many frogs, and the lights would have to be off for an extended period of time for death to occur bc once the lights come back on the plants would start depleting that CO2 they generated and start generating more O2


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

I also don't have misting systems hooked up and running so I do open the lids everyday to spray a little bit


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

im most likely going for misting system


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

It will be cheaper and easier to just make a screen and put on the top, instead of a total glass top. If you put the screen in the front of the lid, you will not have as much of a problem with fog. No wires and no fans needed. Plus, it helps keep the temps from getting so high in the tank, as compared to air tight. That is my best recommendation. I have a 90 gallon tank with about 4 inches of screen that run the entire width of the tank. I do about the same amount in my smaller tanks as well. All my frogs are breeding and healthy. I am a firm believer in passive air movement and use no fans.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


> im most likely going for misting system


You will be very happy with a misting system  I love mine.


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

jeeperrs said:


> It will be cheaper and easier to just make a screen and put on the top, instead of a total glass top. If you put the screen in the front of the lid, you will not have as much of a problem with fog. No wires and no fans needed. Plus, it helps keep the temps from getting so high in the tank, as compared to air tight. That is my best recommendation. I have a 90 gallon tank with about 4 inches of screen that run the entire width of the tank. I do about the same amount in my smaller tanks as well. All my frogs are breeding and healthy. I am a firm believer in passive air movement and use no fans.[
> 
> 
> do you have a screen making method? lol I don't want it to look shizny, and a bow front screen seems difficult


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


> jeeperrs said:
> 
> 
> > It will be cheaper and easier to just make a screen and put on the top, instead of a total glass top. If you put the screen in the front of the lid, you will not have as much of a problem with fog. No wires and no fans needed. Plus, it helps keep the temps from getting so high in the tank, as compared to air tight. That is my best recommendation. I have a 90 gallon tank with about 4 inches of screen that run the entire width of the tank. I do about the same amount in my smaller tanks as well. All my frogs are breeding and healthy. I am a firm believer in passive air movement and use no fans.[
> ...


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

nice for a straight cut. 
I don't think ill find a bow cut piece for the idea though

ill raid home depot and see what i can find haha


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


> nice for a straight cut.
> I don't think ill find a bow cut piece for the idea though
> 
> ill raid home depot and see what i can find haha


Yep, that is the one thing you will have to figure out how to navigate.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Screen construction. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63781-screen-vent-construction-how.html

The curved front will be a problem, as screen rails are not typically curved. MrBiggs has a nice solution for you.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/89097-advice-needed-framing-curved-screen.html


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

If you have the curved lid for the tank you can use that for the front curve. You could probably get a glass cutter to cut it, so that you are left with the curve and a straight edge. Or, you can get a piece of plastic and cut it to fit yourself making sure the back edge is flat. Then you would only be left with straight edges for the screen and the glass to be cut. 

Even if you get a lid made to fit, it will have a plastic piece in the back for wires used in an aquarium. You could then have a glass cutter remove the amount of glass you don't need. Just make sure it isn't tempered glass first.


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

hmm.. I had glass cut to fit the top before, so what i have is two pieces of glass. one bowed to make the lid, and another that was holding the light. then the back was open for filters. 
in order to cut the curve with glass the glass would have to have a hole cut out the middle, because with the glass curve not connected to the straight iece it wouldnt be very study unless connected with some pretty strong screen . 

but if the glass has a hole cut in the middle i suppose i could place the screen down, and silicone another glass cut the same way on top.


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)




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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


>


I would make "Glass 2" less wide so that you can put a screen between "Glass 1" and "Glass 2". You can have a hole drilled in Glass 1 for your misting nozzle. The screen won't bow and if the glass is sitting on one three of the edges of the tank, it won't have any trouble supporting itself (which Glass 1 and 2 would both be doing if the screen was in the middle).


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

jeeperrs said:


> I would make "Glass 2" less wide so that you can put a screen between "Glass 1" and "Glass 2". You can have a hole drilled in Glass 1 for your misting nozzle. The screen won't bow and if the glass is sitting on one three of the edges of the tank, it won't have any trouble supporting itself (which Glass 1 and 2 would both be doing if the screen was in the middle).


haha thanks for the picture! =] im super visual. 
but will that method succesfully keep condensation/fog off the front glass? 
and i worried about evaporation with that method as well, because of light placement.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


> haha thanks for the picture! =] im super visual.
> but will that method succesfully keep condensation/fog off the front glass?
> and i worried about evaporation with that method as well, because of light placement.


The closer to the front the better. If you have a way of putting screen in the curved glass, then do it. I don't know anyone here that will cut glass quite that fancy, then you will have to figure out how to make the screen look "clean" when you install it. You won't want your lights right on the glass, I have mine about 4 inches above the glass. If you have too much evaporation you can cover some of the screen or just make a more narrow screen to begin with. Keep in mind, these are just ideas I am throwing out there. I will soon be putting my screens in the middle of the tanks on my Exo Terras for the UVB bulb, instead of the back of the tank like they are now. I am not concerned about evaporation. If you have passive air movement you will probably keep a pretty high humidity in your tank. Remember, the soil and wood will be moist from misting, the warm lights will cause humidity. If you are not pumping air in from outside the tank with a fan, you will probably be fine. You just have to monitor it to be sure, as we all have different environmental conditions at home. I will try to remember to take a picture of the top of my 90 gallon for you to see. I live in Oklahoma and do not have issues with humidity. However, people in AZ may have a greater issue.


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

central texas here, pretty dry. but since the idea is more simplex, i think i will try it and see how it does. I did go ahead and by a fogger as well which will help the humidity. 
I will build a stand for the light, or just suspend them. 
we'll see how that works.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I did learn about this in aquaculture class but I didn't know it would be so severe as to cause death. Flies always manage to get out of my tanks so when I say sealed I don't inspect for open crevices. I would imagine the tank would have to be very heavily planted, have many frogs, and the lights would have to be off for an extended period of time for death to occur bc once the lights come back on the plants would start depleting that CO2 they generated and start generating more O2


CO2 is heavier than air and if there isn't good turnover, you can end up with lower levels of CO2 sufficient to kill frogs... The plants can only efficiently take up CO2 that reaches thier leaves so to assume that the plants will rapidly absorb what they produced overnight isn't necessarily correct. the fact that fruit flies can escape tells you nothing about the turnover of air in the tank. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ed said:


> CO2 is heavier than air and if there isn't good turnover, you can end up with lower levels of CO2 sufficient to kill frogs... The plants can only efficiently take up CO2 that reaches thier leaves so to assume that the plants will rapidly absorb what they produced overnight isn't necessarily correct. the fact that fruit flies can escape tells you nothing about the turnover of air in the tank.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Soooo I'm confused now about what to do. I haven't had a problem, and if I take off the plastic piece on the back of my glass top and put screen for that few inches on the back my tank will not hold humidity and will have to be sprayed very often, how do you keep the humidity up in the tank and create air flow easily???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Soooo I'm confused now about what to do. I haven't had a problem, and if I take off the plastic piece on the back of my glass top and put screen for that few inches on the back my tank will not hold humidity and will have to be sprayed very often, how do you keep the humidity up in the tank and create air flow easily???


I have 4 inch by 8 inch mesh vents on my pumilio tanks and I have no problems sustaining high humidity even if they are sprayed once every several days so I'm not sure why you think a vent will prevent the tank from holding humidity.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ed said:


> I have 4 inch by 8 inch mesh vents on my pumilio tanks and I have no problems sustaining high humidity even if they are sprayed once every several days so I'm not sure why you think a vent will prevent the tank from holding humidity....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I put a small hole in the back of mine one time and I couldn't hold the humidity above 70%


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I put a small hole in the back of mine one time and I couldn't hold the humidity above 70%


Do you mist your tank? I think the device you are measuring must be broke. FL is known for humid environments. I would speculate that your ambient air is well above 50% humidity for many days out of the year, not to mention inside your tank.

I just checked your weather and the humidity it is 87% in Pensacola, FL


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

jeeperrs said:


> Do you mist your tank? I think the device you are measuring must be broke. FL is known for humid environments. I would speculate that your ambient air is well above 50% humidity for many days out of the year, not to mention inside your tank.
> 
> I just checked your weather and the humidity it is 87% in Pensacola, FL


I open the lids & mist them once a day. Would the fact that I open the lids daily be enough air exchange? I just don't know how I'm going to incorporate a mesh top with my glass top. I have 4 variabilis coming in march for the other half of my 75g and I just put a bunch of plants in there


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

And it's like raining on and off and it's all foggy here right now lol so that's why the humidity is so high. Although our humidity is generally higher than other states it definitely varies, especially during the winter, at least where I am way up on the panhandle


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I put a small hole in the back of mine one time and I couldn't hold the humidity above 70%


I think what ever you were using to measure the humidity wasn't working right.. 

Also oddly enough the frogs do just fine and can even breed when the humidity in the cage is 60% (Lotters et al, Poison Frogs)....... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> I think what ever you were using to measure the humidity wasn't working right..
> 
> Also oddly enough the frogs do just fine and can even breed when the humidity in the cage is 60% (Lotters et al, Poison Frogs).......
> 
> ...


Everytime you bring that book up I wanna kick myself in the @$$. I missed out on a good deal here for it awhile back and I can't bring myself to pay $165 for it. I do have the pdf file but it's just not the same. 

Since you're a walking "Ed-cyclopedia" maybe you should just sell me yours cheap!


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Pumilo said:


> Screen construction. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63781-screen-vent-construction-how.html
> 
> The curved front will be a problem, as screen rails are not typically curved. MrBiggs has a nice solution for you.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/89097-advice-needed-framing-curved-screen.html


Just noticed this thread but as you can see from the link above I faced a similar problem, although not with a bowfront but rather a corner tank. Here's a photo of my eventual solution that also shows how I ended up having the glass cut; both should be relevant to your discussion.


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## notEZbeingGREEN (Sep 17, 2012)

Along the same lines...
I ended up putting a small vent across the back of mine.
It just filled in the space on a standard bowfront top, where the plastic
extension/hob filters normally go...










Then drilled 8 holes(4 on each side) in the front curve for more circulation.










I just siliconed screen mesh on the inside with clear silicone.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Gamble said:


> "Ed-cyclopedia"


That just took jokes to a whole new level.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

frog dude said:


> That just took jokes to a whole new level.


 Is that a good thing or bad thing ???


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Gamble said:


> Is that a good thing or bad thing ???


Good! I should have been more specific. It is very funny!


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

frog dude said:


> Good! I should have been more specific. It is very funny!


Ok good 
I thought so too!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> Since you're a walking "Ed-cyclopedia" maybe you should just sell me yours cheap!


Hmm first edition, excellent condition....... $165 may seem like a bargain..... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


>


Your piece on the bottom right, with the inside of a piece of glass cut out, would be very expensive to have cut. It would be very difficult to try to cut yourself...next to impossible, really. Finally, it would be an extremely fragile piece.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> Hmm first edition, excellent condition....... $165 may seem like a bargain.....
> 
> Ed


Oh come on Ed! 
You have photographic memory, so you and I both know you've memorized the whole thing anyways! I figured since I'm such a great guy you could do it for $65 

I'm a first edition in excellent condition & I give you my friendship for free ... now THAT'S a bargain!


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

MrBiggs said:


> Just noticed this thread but as you can see from the link above I faced a similar problem, although not with a bowfront but rather a corner tank. Here's a photo of my eventual solution that also shows how I ended up having the glass cut; both should be relevant to your discussion.


How did you get the screen made that way?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Boyd75 said:


> How did you get the screen made that way?


I already linked the thread in which MrBiggs built that. It was re-linked when MrBiggs qouted me. Here is the link again. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/89097-advice-needed-framing-curved-screen.html


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## Boyd75 (Dec 26, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I already linked the thread in which MrBiggs built that. It was re-linked when MrBiggs qouted me. Here is the link again. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/89097-advice-needed-framing-curved-screen.html


my bad. thank you


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Be careful of your choice of plastics if you go that route. It's discussed in that thread.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Pumilo said:


> Be careful of your choice of plastics if you go that route. It's discussed in that thread.


If you do decide to go a similar route to mine the product that you'll want is sheet PVC, which goes by the name Sintra board. There are quite a few online suppliers.


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