# O. Pumilio "Salt Creek"



## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Pictures of my breeding pair of Pumilio "Salt Creek". Comments very welcome. I hope to soon get some eggs!


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## KVans (Jun 21, 2012)

I love the color on these, so pretty!


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Those are some nice looking SC bastis...congrats.

Now, take this for what it's worth as sometimes pics can be deceiving but...it looks as if your tank is fairly dry and that may have a lot to do with what appears to be a heat lamp putting off that red glow??


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Yeah....its a heat lamp because they like to stay at temps around 82 degrees-86 degrees. The plants are rarely dry....but yes more dry during the day. Bromeliads need to dry out or they will die eventually. 
As for the positive comments- Thanks to all!


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

I would do away with the heat lamp. And just do basic lighting over it. the less ventilation you have the higher the temps will raise. You would be surprised at how well a well sealed viv heats up. Also, your frogs will thermal regulate themselves that way. They will go up higher when craving higher temps and than lower when wanting to cool. I have venting on all my tanks and this allows the plants to dry between waters. I mist 4x a day at 10 seconds each with one longer one at the end of the day. 4 hours between mistings and a couple hours before lights off to let the plants dry out a bit. So far so good on all plants and frogs couldnt be happier. also, a DIY fan setup inside the viv helps to get some moisture off the plants and is just over all healthier for plants and the frogs. Not trying to come off as a jerk but just saying there are other options than a heat lamp. If I am beating a dead horse and just giving you advice you've already gotten than please disregard my comment.


And btw. GORGEOUS frogs lol


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## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

Those temps seem very high, I keep my tanks around 72-76 with lots of breeding.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

you don't need heat lamps and using them has no advantages, however they do pose the risk of overheating your frogs and killing them.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Have any of you heard of Simply Natural Dart frogs? Marcus Breece?
He is the one telling me the logistics on how to keep these particular frogs.
I am hearing the most calling at these temps and they seem happy, so I don't really know what to do at this point. that LAST COMMENT was honest but kinda harsh. thank you all -Dave HHD


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

djfergu said:


> that LAST COMMENT was honest but kinda harsh. thank you all -Dave HHD


Really? WTF?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Listen to the folks here. If anyone gives you bad advice, the others will pounce on it and set it straight. I think the general consensus will be that they don't need extra heat and the light may be drying out their their tank.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

PLEASE READ!! Yes, I understand that, however I am concerned both that i am doing the wrong thing by adding the heat lamp....or would be wrong t take it away.
TO EXPLAIN: Like you said, the general concensus is that it may be drying out my Bromeliads and adding too much heat to the vivarium, BUT on the other hand- SNDF has told me that is how they should be kept, and him being a very reputable person and also a sponsor of THIS site....that he is probably who i should listen to. I am not saying that i am being stubborn and will not listen to the rest of the people, but rather expressing my concern. i will be checking here in a while to see what you all say about this. ABOUT THE HARSH COMMENT- don't get mad.....I am just stating that I feel to say that I am killin my frogs is a little presumtuous, thats all. no disrepect. Talk to you all soon, I hope. kinda feel like its me against the whole forum on this 1, but we will see what people have to say! Thank you all!


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## heckler (Dec 28, 2011)

I dont have experience with pums, but I do want some, and thus, have been researching them. You can't argue with the fact that a lot of people have success with lower temps. That being said, the care sheet on the site says that 85 is about the maximum end of the temp spectrum for pums. Also, I don't remember where I read it, but I know I've read somewhere that they can tolerate higher temps. The lower temp does probably provide more security that they will not overheat, but with people keeping them at higher temps, and a reputable sponsor recommending higher temps, it's kind of a choice. I personally would go with the lower temperatures, but that's just me.

Maybe some people that have a lot of experience with pums can chime in?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Heat lamp won't really help unless temps are way too low, and could cause catastrophic results. I keep my pums at the same temps as my histos (70s) and some actually are froglet factories.


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

How warm are you keeping their tank? What is the temperature of the tank without the heat lamp? I have heard eye-witness accounts of pumilio being seen active on the ground where the ground was temp'd at over 90°f... This being said, in the wild, these frogs are able to regulate their body much more effectively than in our little glass boxes. This is the reason for them being kept much cooler than that.

-Christian

Edit: re-worded my sentence.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

cbreon said:


> you don't need heat lamps and using them has no advantages, however they do pose the risk of overheating your frogs and killing them.



This is not stating that you *ARE* killing your frogs. It is stating that heat lamps drastically increase the chances of accidentally overheating your frogs... which will lead to their death. 

I can understand your dilemma in receiving conflicting info in regards to the proper care of your frogs. However, I think you called it on being against the entire hobby on this issue, as I am not sure you will find many(if any) who will support the use of a heat lamp. On that note, I am actually surprised that Marcus would even have suggested it? 

While these frogs will tolerate somewhat higher temps, they do not need it nor will they suffer without it. MANY, MANY hobbyist are having lots of success breeding bastimentos at temps in the mid 70s. 

One more thing to think about...once your frogs begin breeding, you are gonna play hell trying to keep enough water in the brom axels to support a tad if that lamp keeps drying them out.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

After reading all of what you all had to say, I actually have decided against the heat lamp. I really don't know why Marcus suggested such high temps and to be honest was sort of surprised that he said to keep them at those temps. He even had me go out to GET a heat lamp and spend money to do so. It makes more sense from what i know that the mid to high 70s are ideal for Pums.....and ironically thats what everyone else thinks as well. 
I was honestly confused and so i thank you all for pointing me in the right direction. i want whats best for my animals in the end, and so i'm going with my gut on this 1. Thank you all!


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

djfergu said:


> Have any of you heard of Simply Natural Dart frogs? Marcus Breece?
> He is the one telling me the logistics on how to keep these particular frogs.
> I am hearing the most calling at these temps and they seem happy, so I don't really know what to do at this point. that LAST COMMENT was honest but kinda harsh. thank you all -Dave HHD


Hi Dave, 'honest' is what I was going for, I have found that if you are not direct, sometimes people miss the point. Its my opinion, and the opinion of many, that temps that high show little advantage and lots of risk...


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Thank you CBREON for the honesty. i know i was also pretty abrasive in my original response to you and did not mean to come at you the wrong way. I understand that you are here to help, and as you can see in my other most recent response, i have PRETTY MUCH decided against the heat lamp. What I did was turned it off completely last night for a sorta "trial and error" on what exact temps they go down to....and upon checking things out this morning, found that they were at a little lower temps than I would have liked. I did NOT put the lamp back on, but rather switched out my hood for one with a higher intensity heat output (5.0 tropical uvb one), and put the old aquarium hood away. Hopefully this will provide me with a couple more degrees heat than I am getting. I have also sealed up the screen top more (not completely) to try and hold in humidity/heat more like another member suggested (again-"trial and error"). Hopefully I find the perfect solution to daytime temps. (TO ALL) PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS.
SECOND thing is a question. I am on the verge of figuring out hoe to maintain daytime temp for what is great for my salt creeks, but what about at night???? Since the lights are on a timer (and also my misting system), there is no heat source at night since there is no lamp anymore. Suggestions on how to heat things up just a bit? PLEASE help.
LASTLY- I know I am asking alot of questions, but I know that you all will help tons. I appreciate everything, and so thank you! I live in California (northern), so temps/humidity sometimes pose a problem. We will figure it all out together, cause what are friends for...right?! Thanks again and we will talk to you all soon!


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

What are you temps in the day now that you switched out the lights? Also, the frogs experience a natural drop in temperature at night in the wild. I try to drop my temps about 10 degrees at night. My day temps are right around 80 and I like to drop to 70-72.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

djfergu said:


> Thank you CBREON for the honesty. i know i was also pretty abrasive in my original response to you and did not mean to come at you the wrong way. I understand that you are here to help, and as you can see in my other most recent response, i have PRETTY MUCH decided against the heat lamp. What I did was turned it off completely last night for a sorta "trial and error" on what exact temps they go down to....and upon checking things out this morning, found that they were at a little lower temps than I would have liked. I did NOT put the lamp back on, but rather switched out my hood for one with a higher intensity heat output (5.0 tropical uvb one), and put the old aquarium hood away. Hopefully this will provide me with a couple more degrees heat than I am getting. I have also sealed up the screen top more (not completely) to try and hold in humidity/heat more like another member suggested (again-"trial and error"). Hopefully I find the perfect solution to daytime temps. (TO ALL) PLEASE COMMENT ON THIS.
> SECOND thing is a question. I am on the verge of figuring out hoe to maintain daytime temp for what is great for my salt creeks, but what about at night???? Since the lights are on a timer (and also my misting system), there is no heat source at night since there is no lamp anymore. Suggestions on how to heat things up just a bit? PLEASE help.
> LASTLY- I know I am asking alot of questions, but I know that you all will help tons. I appreciate everything, and so thank you! I live in California (northern), so temps/humidity sometimes pose a problem. We will figure it all out together, cause what are friends for...right?! Thanks again and we will talk to you all soon!


What are your temps without the heat lamp now? I keep mine between 80-70 at all times. If you cover more of the screen up it will trap more heat and raise the temps and humidity for you. Your tank does look rather dry.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

My daytime temps are from the mid to high 70s. Night temps drop to around 68.

This is for all of my frogs. I don't have Basti but I do have pums that are breeding machines. In fact, I'm getting ready to build a tank for the male so I can give the female a break.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Okay, so i have messed around with various ideas and gotten it to where I want it and where it can stay that way. Like I said it was "trial and error", and just a little messing around and I got everything good. My temps. after the light was reoved and the hood bulb was changed out afforded me a reading of about 73-74 degrees and a humidity reading of about 86%...which is rather high for Bastis, actually.
What I have done: Using what i have already accomplished with the hood, I raised my HOME temp just a tad bit and took the barrier off of the top to provide ventilation....and then added a computer fan to run 12 hours each day, to circulate air and heat all at once. i have read and heard from very well educated sources that BOTH the Pumilio I keep and the Bromeliads will definately benefit from this set-up, and that I will have some very happy frogs. I trust my resources (not gonna name drop here) because they are among the most successful frog people I know.......so i am gonna go with what I have found out. Again, your advice has all been utilized in the method I am using, so I thank you for that....and I will be keeping a close eye out to make sure it is all perfect. 
ALSO- Still haven't figured out how to keep heat at night! Any help??


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh...and BTW, my temps are now right in the 80 degree range and my humidity is between 50%-60% at all times. Just like they like it. Moist but not WET.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

So.....are people done talking on this particular subject?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

People already answered most (if not all) of your concerns and they even gave you their temp. ranges. 

If you keep your frogs inside your house, they will be fine at night.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

djfergu said:


> So.....are people done talking on this particular subject?


Dude. You asked for constructive criticism. You got it. What's with the attitude?


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

I smell a troll under the bridge...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

SnakePaparazzi said:


> I smell a troll under the bridge...


 http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/84617-few-planted-tanks.html


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Jacobi- I have an attitude (yes, I'll admit it!) because people want to tell me I "have an arrogance about me" and/or that I am "a troll under the bridge".....and really if any of you people would open your mind to the fact that I have my own oppinions and ideas, then you wouldn't have to make this a debate. I share some of the greatest convos with the most reputable brreders like Understory Enterprises and Marcus Breece of Simply Natural Dart Frogs and they tell me to say that you are all full of it (nice version). so who do I trust??? Well, the people who have had success with over 1,000 darts, of course! Simply put....when i am successful, you all will see how RIGHT I am on this. Thanks for the message and if I get any more name calling on here, i will simply leave a comment to the moderators. THANKS!


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

djfergu said:


> CSCHUB- Okay....well you can "name-call" and be immature about !


( I started this response on another thread but it seems to go here as well)

For a person who has at the moment 27 posts, this is the second time you have called someone immature, this could quite possibly be a record. Seems sort of ironic that you are bothered by name calling. 

Many, many people on this board know Marcus and Mark Pepper quite well, so I really wouldn't hold that as your trump card. 

Many people have offered you good advice and comments in more then one thread, soak it in, consider it for a day, a week, whatever. Really read some threads...


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

I understand regarding the "immature" comments. I just felt as though with many of the responses to my posts, it was either their way or the highway. Not everyone shares in the same ideas of how to keep their animals. I have said this multiple times and I will say it again...can't we agree to disagree and move on. I do hold Marcus in high regard due to the fact that he has spent much time mentoring me. Also, if you are so familiar with Marcus why would you speak ill of his methods? (if I misunderstood your post, to me, then please let me know) I don't mean for my last question to you to be negative, just wondering how you view Marcus as a breeder.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Theres no need for that comment. You have your way and I have mine......and as of now, this DEBATE is squashed! Good luck with your endeavors and i hope you succeed, truely!


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

srrrio;747313
Many said:


> Just to be clear, I did not say I know Marcus or Mark, so I certainly would not criticize their husbandry and am definitely not speaking ill of their methods. It just appears that you are using them to assert your expertise. Again to be clear, many members of this board have close ties to them as well, so you are sort of preaching to the choir.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

I use Marcus's name because he is the only breeder I have worked with. I respect his methods...just like you stated others do. It wasn't meant to be percieved as me "dropping names" right and left. I just feel as though I have been mis-understood. I have to trust what he says due to that fact he has been very successful in breeding...the proof is in the pudding.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

This isn't meant to discredit Marcus in any way (I also spoke to him in the past and own/have owned SNDF pumilio, only good reviews from me) - but unless I'm mistaken I don't think Marcus is specifically known for _breeding pumilio_ or selling pumilio bred by himself.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

I never said that he specifically breeds Pumilio...i know he breeds other species. Confused.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

....although, if I am not mistaken, I believe he does breed some of his Pumilio.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

djfergu said:


> I never said that he specifically breeds Pumilio...i know he breeds other species. Confused.


Well my point is that he's known more for importing and selling (quality) WC pumilio, not necessarily being a prolific pumilio long term keeper/breeder, there might be other people who's advice would serve you better in that department if that is what you're looking to do. I can name a handful of people off the top of my head I know personally who _keep long term_ and _prolifically bred_ many pumilio morphs, and I would bet a breeding pair of lehmanni that none of them would recommend a heat lamp unless your heat wasn't working in the winter or something - pumilio can tolerate temps in the low 80s, but like has been mentioned, don't need it, and are probably on the safer side in the 70s and you will get just as good results.


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## yomamafat (Jun 16, 2010)

djfergu - good luck with your salt creek breeding endeavors. I've been trolling on this board for a while and I can attest that Chris K. as well as others who have chimed in are giving you good to excellent advice based on their success. Over time with your own successes and failures you too are going to find out what will work for you in your setting. Salt Creeks are a great morph to work with as they are bold and active, but I am unfamiliar with how prolific they are in a captive environment. An easy pumilio to start with if you want a first time breeding project with pumilio would be san cristobal or el dorado as in my experience they can be prolific and are already very well established in the hobby. Again good luck and enjoy the hobby; hopefully, you will gain a network of friends who can support you - when you do acheive success it's no fun to celebrate alone.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

YOMAMAFAT- Its good to see that there is someone here for the right reasons. I appreciate your comments and support in my decisions.

"OTHERS"- I feel there is only one thing to clarify here. The heat lamp thing was due to miscommunication between Marcus and I. That is the very reason why I was all like "ummm...really, Marcus??" when I thought he said it, and also the reason why I am not using that method anymore. I had the heat lamp on there for literally a day, so i am glad that Marcus corrected me.....and as of now, my frogs are happier than ever!


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

YOMAMAFAT- Maybe you can be a part of that network of friends?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

djfergu said:


> YOMAMAFAT- Its good to see that there is someone here for the right reasons. I appreciate your comments and support in my decisions.
> 
> 
> > You're right Dave, most of us spend hours giving people advice and help for all the wrong reasons...derp.
> ...


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

You know what......you are right about what you said. i did not mean to be abrasive. it is in my nature as a person and when I have an idea or method that I feel very strongly about, it takes alot to detur me from that idea. Especially when Marcus Breece is saying that is the right way. 
I feel that it may be me taking what people say as an attack when they are kind of saying that if I don't do it thier way, that it will be bad for my frogs....rather than just taking it as help (so I am sorry for that) i will make a promise to try and take disagreements with a grain of salt and to take a deep breath. If I feel in the end I am being attacked, I will defend myself but I doubt anyone is here to bash me. 
I appreciate (and even liked/thanked) your reply and even though I could have done without the sarcasm, its cool. You have a point.
Simply put.....there are things that I will disagree on once in a while. Unfortunately it was on my 1st posts......but more than likely I will agree with what most people say on lots of subjects. I do NOT know it all. I hope all of the people who are thinking that I am a grumpy dude can accept my appology (I am sorry!) and we can all move on and be friends! After all, we are all here for one thing.....agree?


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

djfergu said:


> YOMAMAFAT- Its good to see that there is someone here for the right reasons. I appreciate your comments and support in my decisions.
> 
> "OTHERS"- I feel there is only one thing to clarify here. The heat lamp thing was due to miscommunication between Marcus and I. That is the very reason why I was all like "ummm...really, Marcus??" when I thought he said it, and also the reason why I am not using that method anymore. I had the heat lamp on there for literally a day, so i am glad that Marcus corrected me.....and as of now, my frogs are happier than ever!


Lawd have mercy. Get over yourself dude. You honestly think me or anyone is on this site to cause problems and put others down. I love this site and the people and enjoy being able to communicate with others and help out with my input as well. You have been the only person I have clashed with and that comes down to your garbage, holier than hell attitude. Can't say that I am surprised you misheard him, clearly everyone else knew something was up. I wonder what else you misunderstood.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

djfergu; After all said:


> Now you're getting it...
> 
> As for pumilio, most would consider them to be more of an intermediate to advanced frog, so there is a lot to learn. The good news is there is a plethora of information on this site about their care, their diet, their environment, breeding, etc...
> 
> ...


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

This is one of my favorite pumilio threads...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...robates-pumilio-experiences-keeping-tips.html


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Read the threads that were provided and i was impressed with them very much. At the end of the day, we are all learning and growing on a daily basis and I do not think anyone truely reaches the point where they know everything. Things are subject to change constantly and new info is discovered as we speak. I do not know it all and I will keep that in mind, and I expect you all to do the same as human beings that may make a few mistakes. As for the person who just won't let up (you know who you are...) I will simply say something that everyone has heard at least once in thier lives- Dude, if you have nothing good to say, then do not say anything at all.

We are all just better off relying on what we know and what we can learn and the fact that we can come together as one dedicated group of animal lovers and make a world of difference. there is so many other things I would rather gripe about that who does what to who on here. 

I love this forum and love you all, and like I said in an earlier post.......its time I set my feelings aside and really open up to what you all have to say and learn. As for MY frogs currently- they are happy as can be! Thats all that matters.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I'm coming in late to this one and didn't read it all, but I have a couple comments.

First off, I would recommend checking out this thread I posted a while ago (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/48298-weather-data-panama.html). These are temperature data that I took in Panama on Isla Colon in pumilio habitat (in the shade, mind you). Now, folks will notice that the temperatures are higher, often peaking at 26-27C (78-80F) with spikes to 30C when sun hit the meter. Additionally, in another thread, I listed temperature data on various morphs that I worked with (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...umilio-research-finds-lots-pics-included.html), where you'll notice that temperatures got even warmer than what my datalogger recorded.

So, simple fact is that these frogs live and breed in warm temperatures. What is generally recommended for captivity is on the low end of what these frogs are exposed to in the wild. *HOWEVER* (I put this in caps and bold before someone tries to yell at me), I personally would recommend keeping them in the lower end because A. they will still breed and be happy, and B. the risk of a lethal temperature spike is reduced. While you could keep them at the higher temperatures the OP originally had and have them be quite happy, in an enclosed vivarium, temperatures can spike quite easily, and quickly. Under the assumption that spikes would likely happen, I would personally opt to have them at a lower temperature just so that the high end of the spike never gets to lethal levels.

Again, I haven't read all of the posts, but to those that got uppity about keeping pums at higher temperatures, calm down as I have the data to show that they actually do normally live in these temperatures. To the OP, I would suggest, however, listening to those here who have experience keeping these frogs. I would opt for a conservative temperature regime that will be on the safer end for the frogs. It's counterintuitive, but these frogs cannot handle prolonged spikes in temperature. They do fine at cooler temperatures, but too hot, even a few degrees, can be lethal.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

JP- I'll make this is simple as possible: Always concider yourself an ally and a friend and I appreciate more than you know that you chimed in and the professional manner that you spoke to me (and the forum) in. You definately told me to do what they have been saying for good reasons and because you were so nice and because you were so professional......I have opted to do what you say. in the end, I want us all to get along and benefit frrum/convo. thank you once again!


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

MonarchzMan said:


> Again, I haven't read all of the posts, but to those that got uppity about keeping pums at higher temperatures, calm down as I have the data to show that they actually do normally live in these temperatures. To the OP, I would suggest, however, listening to those here who have experience keeping these frogs. I would opt for a conservative temperature regime that will be on the safer end for the frogs. It's counterintuitive, but these frogs cannot handle prolonged spikes in temperature. They do fine at cooler temperatures, but too hot, even a few degrees, can be lethal.


JP, would you agree that although pumilio can tolerate temps into the upper 80's or maybe even low 90's for short periods of time, they would generally avoid such temps? Furthermore, I have always thought that pumilio in the wild would have easy access to a wide variety of temperature gradients, much more so than in the average vivarium, and this would allow the frogs to regulate their own temperature and moisture. Therefore, wouldn't wild frogs be much more capable of dealing with high temperatures then a captive frog in an average viv?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

cbreon said:


> JP, would you agree that although pumilio can tolerate temps into the upper 80's or maybe even low 90's for short periods of time, they would generally avoid such temps? Furthermore, I have always thought that pumilio in the wild would have easy access to a wide variety of temperature gradients, much more so than in the average vivarium, and this would allow the frogs to regulate their own temperature and moisture. Therefore, wouldn't wild frogs be much more capable of dealing with high temperatures then a captive frog in an average viv?


In general, yes, I agree. However, when I was putting out the data logger, it was kept in the shade, and while it is possible there are microclimates colder than what I found, I feel as though my data logger especially captures an accurate average of what frogs deal with on a daily basis.

I think that you could keep pumilio in the low 80s with no side effects with a sufficiently large viv because we know that a tank measured at 82F is not 82F everywhere, and in a sufficiently large tank, there are enough spots to keep microclimates within an acceptable range. In small tanks, that is not likely. If you measure 90 in a small tank, chances are that it is 90 everywhere, whereas in a large tank, microclimates are likely. I wouldn't be happy about measuring 90 in either case, but I would be significantly more freaked out for a small tank.

I would always recommend going to the conservative end of the spectrum as it works and you won't expose frogs to undue risk. I was simply pointing out that the temperatures the OP originally had his tanks at was well within the normal range these frogs deal with in the wild and did not warrant chastisement by folks here. I would suspect that his source got his data from the same spot I got mine: in the wild.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

MonarchzMan said:


> I would always recommend going to the conservative end of the spectrum as it works and you won't expose frogs to undue risk.


That was the point of my warning too, getting into the mid 80's is only a couple degrees away from the danger zone. At that point, an a/c goes out, a fan gets turned off or breaks, a door gets closed, a timer breaks/fails and it could be lethal. Good info, good conversation

--Craig


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think that you could keep pumilio in the low 80s with no side effects with a sufficiently large viv because we know that a tank measured at 82F is not 82F everywhere, and in a sufficiently large tank, there are enough spots to keep microclimates within an acceptable range. In small tanks, that is not likely. If you measure 90 in a small tank, chances are that it is 90 everywhere, whereas in a large tank, microclimates are likely. I wouldn't be happy about measuring 90 in either case, but I would be significantly more freaked out for a small tank.


One of the things to remember is that humidity also plays a role in where you can end up with a lethal temperature. If you maximize the humidity into the upper 80s to 90s in an effort to maximize breeding and activity periods, you are preventing the frogs from being able to use evaporative cooling to manage thier body temperatures. This lowers the temperature at which you are likely to trigger heat related stress and death. Evaporative cooling has been documented in a wide number of taxa and across multiple continents.....


Ed


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

CBREON- As of today I am just wanting to make amends. The points that you made about things going wrong are very valid and I agree with you that if any of that were to happen, it would be the worse for my frogs (and you never know whenits going to happen....it could happen to anyone). I am actually going on a day long trip (tomorrow) and I would hate for any of the things you said to happen and overheat the tank. I know we are needing to be here for one another and I apreciate your help, despite all of the conflict....and as of now the temps are lower in my tank. Thank you.


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

JP and ED- You 2 are completely right on all of what you said.....but i do not need to tell you that cause you know that haha. I am sure you did gather your research in the same region as Marcus Breece (SNDF), JP......and so being as that I bought the frogs from Marcus.....well thats who knows whats best. 
Given the circumstances with the weather in Cali, and also the things brought up by CBREON that could potentially happen, I have decided to be "better safe than sorry".......and I think we all agree that is the solution to a long drawn out problem. Thank you for your support and sharing the info that you know to be true.
Lastly, I love what you put at the end there, ED. You are right in what you said 110% about adequite amounts of ventilation and less humidity being the way to go if you want the best for your Bastis. Thank you for that!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand your final position. Are you thinking of high temps per JP, in conjunction with ventilation and low humidity that you got from Ed's post?


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Sorry that I was unclear on my message. To clarify: I have decided to "weed out the problems" with my Bromeliads in my viv and get them into a better substrate (stone and sphagnum), so that way they can root better and will not die on me. The frogs will be and ARE kept at between 75 degrees and 80 degrees during the daytime, and slightly drop to temps at night around 70 degrees- 73 degrees. My mister is (still) set to go off in 10 second incriments every 4 hours....and at 8 PM its a little longer (20 sec.). I have a fully ventilated top equipped with a computer fan for air circulation and a hood equipped with a 5.0 UVB bulb for heat/UVB/lighting. The substrate at the bottom is moist but not wet and has plenty of leaf litter and is seeded with quite a few springtails. I may SLIGHTLY modify the tank when re-vamping it so that the bromeliads are at slightly different angles, and I may add 1 pothos to the tank. Do you (all) think this will be good??


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

I do not remember saying anything about humidity....I appologize. Like i said, it is vented with right around 55%-65% humidity at all times. Humidity would be more like 50%-55% at night, I imagine.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

djfergu said:


> CBREON- As of today I am just wanting to make amends. The points that you made about things going wrong are very valid and I agree with you that if any of that were to happen, it would be the worse for my frogs (and you never know whenits going to happen....it could happen to anyone). I am actually going on a day long trip (tomorrow) and I would hate for any of the things you said to happen and overheat the tank. I know we are needing to be here for one another and I apreciate your help, despite all of the conflict....and as of now the temps are lower in my tank. Thank you.


Dave, my response was not necessarily directed at you, but more so, a general statement for any other people reading this thread with questions. Another thing you should keep in mind when you start a thread is that others may chime in with relevant info that does not directly pertain to your question. That way others reading the thread, now and in the future, can potentially benefit as well.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> One of the things to remember is that humidity also plays a role in where you can end up with a lethal temperature. If you maximize the humidity into the upper 80s to 90s in an effort to maximize breeding and activity periods, you are preventing the frogs from being able to use evaporative cooling to manage thier body temperatures. This lowers the temperature at which you are likely to trigger heat related stress and death. Evaporative cooling has been documented in a wide number of taxa and across multiple continents.....
> 
> 
> Ed


Ed an interesting point. So, people who keep their frogs in areas of their house that are vulnerable to overheating during power outages, etc. might be better off cycling pumilio down (dry cycling) during the hottest months of the year. I would think pumilio in a dry cycle would be more capable of utilizing evaporative cooling to regulate their body temperature...


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

Wouldn't misting and having good ventilation both aid in evaporative cooling?


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

I think the point Ed was trying to make was that as the air has more humidity, evaporative cooling becomes less effective because less moisture is able to evaporate. I know that big greenhouse evaporative coolers work better when the air is dry than when it is moist. Evaporative cooling relies on the moisture leaving-if the air is already at 100% RH, it's maximum water-holding capacity- that can't happen. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AlexD said:


> I think the point Ed was trying to make was that as the air has more humidity, evaporative cooling becomes less effective because less moisture is able to evaporate. I know that big greenhouse evaporative coolers work better when the air is dry than when it is moist. Evaporative cooling relies on the moisture leaving-if the air is already at 100% RH, it's maximum water-holding capacity- that can't happen. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


No you have it right. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SnakePaparazzi said:


> Wouldn't misting and having good ventilation both aid in evaporative cooling?


This would work for the entire enclosure as opposed to the frogs specifically. If you can combine the above with the ability of the frogs (themselves) to be able to use evaporative cooling then you are getting closer to how thier niche works... 

Ed


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## Bonobo (Jun 7, 2009)

Hah.. whenever I see a thread jump from 1 page to 7, there's always some drama.. never fails.

I took a look at your other thread, and your problems with the bromeliads has nothing to do with the substrate.. definitely a heat/humidity problem. You need to seal your tanks up.. get that humidity nice and high.. and watch your stolons explode with roots. Most of them should come back strong.. but do it asap, because they are dying. 

Also.. you seem really fixated on temps dude. You're in Cali? If anything you should be worried about the temps being to high! Thank god you did have the open tops, when you were using the heat lamp.. I'm pretty sure your frogs would have been [email protected]#$% if they were sealed.


Good luck bro, hope to see your salts produce.. they are gorgeous.


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

Yes, very wet frogs mixed with dry, moving air would cool the frogs. But if the air in the tank is already at a high humidity, it doesn't matter how damp the frogs are, they aren't going to get cooled as much.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AlexD said:


> Yes, very wet frogs mixed with dry, moving air would cool the frogs. But if the air in the tank is already at a high humidity, it doesn't matter how damp the frogs are, they aren't going to get cooled as much.


Correct. 

Ed


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## TxFrogWrangler (Jun 14, 2012)

Wow!!!! Dude....gorgeous salt creek!!! Good luck with them and you stick to your guns and do what you feel will work. After all, none of us live in Panama everyday of the year so who knows what changes pums go through on a daily basis. Hopefully your methods will yield success and we can learn something new about keeping these little fellas!!! Cheers!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> everyday of the year so who knows what changes pums go through on a daily basis.


Actually there is good data spread through a number articles in the literature including some that link behavior to conditions... (not free access) but see Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, Volume 58, Number 3 - SpringerLink 

Ed


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## TxFrogWrangler (Jun 14, 2012)

Ed said:


> Actually there is good data spread through a number articles in the literature including some that link behavior to conditions... (not free access) but see Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology, Volume 58, Number 3 - SpringerLink
> 
> Ed


Seriously , tell me that no one in this hobby has dared to try a self method and eventually come back to tell us about his success story? I'm just saying, Literature and expertice aside, sometimes it takes us a few frogs here and there to realize what's right and what's the common way. Let the kid do what breece told him to do, and if he gets some salty grilled creeks then he should get back on and report how bad this idea was and then get better at it. I had a freaking flowing river running down this awesome ghostwood piece for my first pumilio pair....I wonder why I never saw them....hmm maybe because they were under my false bottom after they got swept away by my awesome water feature!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> Seriously , tell me that no one in this hobby has dared to try a self method and eventually come back to tell us about his success story? I'm just saying, Literature and expertice aside, sometimes it takes us a few frogs here and there to realize what's right and what's the common way. Let the kid do what breece told him to do, and if he gets some salty grilled creeks then he should get back on and report how bad this idea was and then get better at it. I had a freaking flowing river running down this awesome ghostwood piece for my first pumilio pair....I wonder why I never saw them....hmm maybe because they were under my false bottom after they got swept away by my awesome water feature!


Are you for real? Did you seriously just advise him to go ahead and kill them so he can learn?
Too bad there's not an alternative. Like some kind of social, inactive board with a bunch of other frog keepers on it. That way he could learn *without* killing them. Ahh well, maybe someday.


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## TxFrogWrangler (Jun 14, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Are you for real? Did you seriously just advise him to go ahead and kill them so he can learn?
> Too bad there's not an alternative. Like some kind of social, inactive board with a bunch of other frog keepers on it. That way he could learn *without* killing them. Ahh well, maybe someday.


No I did not advice him to kill them! But many who have started with breece, swear by him. I'm just noticing that off the bat there was dilema with his thread and maybe he'd learn the hard way. I highly doubt Marcus breece would recommend a basking light for 1inch tropical frogs!!!! So no I don't want people killing their animals....but really? Come on and post pums under basking lights?


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## djfergu (Feb 9, 2012)

Well I have said it many times and i will say it again- the basking light was on the frogs one night and it was due to a misunderstanding. Please do not think low of me because of a misunderstanding/mistake. We all make them, plus I DO swear by Breece and he is the one that I got miscommunicated from. In the end, I am good....my frogs are all good....and i will not have to make any bad mistakes because I am taking care of my frogs the right way. I especially am far from them dying. I appreciate the advice and the kind words and feel free to chime in whenever you want on this. Thanks!


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## TxFrogWrangler (Jun 14, 2012)

djfergu said:


> Well I have said it many times and i will say it again- the basking light was on the frogs one night and it was due to a misunderstanding. Please do not think low of me because of a misunderstanding/mistake. We all make them, plus I DO swear by Breece and he is the one that I got miscommunicated from. In the end, I am good....my frogs are all good....and i will not have to make any bad mistakes because I am taking care of my frogs the right way. I especially am far from them dying. I appreciate the advice and the kind words and feel free to chime in whenever you want on this. Thanks!


Sorry bud
Didn't mean to add CacA a to your thread. Pm me and I promise I will share some so far successfully breeding tips. It can't hurt you to learn something new. ; )


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> No I did not advice him to kill them! But many who have started with breece, swear by him. I'm just noticing that off the bat there was dilema with his thread and maybe he'd learn the hard way. I highly doubt Marcus breece would recommend a basking light for 1inch tropical frogs!!!! So no I don't want people killing their animals....but really? Come on and post pums under basking lights?


I guess I misunderstood this.


TxFrogWrangler said:


> Let the kid do what breece told him to do, and if he gets some salty grilled creeks then he should get back on and report how bad this idea was and then get better at it.


I don't know how else to interpret that.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

djfergu said:


> Well I have said it many times and i will say it again- the basking light was on the frogs one night and it was due to a misunderstanding. Please do not think low of me because of a misunderstanding/mistake. We all make them, plus I DO swear by Breece and he is the one that I got miscommunicated from. In the end, I am good....my frogs are all good....and i will not have to make any bad mistakes because I am taking care of my frogs the right way. I especially am far from them dying. I appreciate the advice and the kind words and feel free to chime in whenever you want on this. Thanks!


Nobody will think low of you because of a misunderstanding/mistake. Everybody here has made mistakes before. Most of us have probably lost frogs from mistakes. I know I have. I learn from them and I pass along the info in the hopes that others can learn from my mistakes without having to lose a frog. I was lucky enough to have an old school frogger mentor me. This was long before Dendroboard was around. We are so lucky to have so many good people with good information right here on Dendroboard. Take advantage of it. I for one, have a lot more to learn and most of that learning will be done right here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> Sorry bud
> Didn't mean to add CacA a to your thread. Pm me and I promise I will share some so far successfully breeding tips. It can't hurt you to learn something new. ; )


Why not just post them to the forum so more than just one person can benefit? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> Come on and post pums under basking lights?


Actually, there is merit in providing even frogs with a temperature gradient from a basking light... As with other taxa, more than one species of anuran has been demonstrated to utilze basking as a method of increasing body temperatures for more than one physiological reason. It has also been shown to occur in anurans when they are compromised with an infection (and is a method several taxa of anurans use to help clear or resist chytrid infections). That anurans bask has been documented in the literature going back for decades. 
The fact that is it a tropical species has no merit on whether they will bask or not... As with a number of other practices in the pet trade, cook book recipes for success often preclude actual understanding of the wider behaviors of the frogs. 

Virtually all enclosures used in the hobby prevent the use of things like basking lights for anurans since the perception that they have to be tightly closed up to maximize humidity, as well as commonly used sizes prevents the frogs from being able to use basking as method of thermoregulation and to support immunocompentacy...... 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TxFrogWrangler said:


> Seriously , tell me that no one in this hobby has dared to try a self method and eventually come back to tell us about his success story? I'm just saying, Literature and expertice aside, sometimes it takes us a few frogs here and there to realize what's right and what's the common way. Let the kid do what breece told him to do, and if he gets some salty grilled creeks then he should get back on and report how bad this idea was and then get better at it. I had a freaking flowing river running down this awesome ghostwood piece for my first pumilio pair....I wonder why I never saw them....hmm maybe because they were under my false bottom after they got swept away by my awesome water feature!


You were the one who claimed we didn't have good data on how the frogs live in the wild and I demonstrated that was incorrect... 

So we should ignore the documented conditions of how the frogs behave and live in thier normal enviroment and stick with reports of success of how other people have had success? Now that is a method for encouraging voodoo husbandry that can and will keep the hobby from providing the best conditions for success... 

I'm with Doug, it is pretty clear that in your statement above, that you felt that the guy should learn by killing his frogs. Now that is a very backwards method of progression in this day and age particularly since there is good data coming in about not only what the frogs do in thier native habitats but the conditions they prefer..... 

If you wish to ignore the information that comes in from studies on the frogs in the wild, that is your choice, but personally, I don't think you should be suggesting that ignoring it to others is a good idea... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> You were the one who claimed we didn't have good data on how the frogs live in the wild and I demonstrated that was incorrect...
> 
> So we should ignore the documented conditions of how the frogs behave and live in thier normal enviroment and stick with reports of success of how other people have had success? Now that is a method for encouraging voodoo husbandry that can and will keep the hobby from providing the best conditions for success...
> 
> ...


Hey Ed, our Texas Wrangler did mention that he breeds pumilio. Perhaps his sales are a little low and he needs to drum up some business?


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