# What is this?



## Armson

I saw this on the glass of my viv. What is this?


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## Armson

This is a damn Nemertean isn't it?


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## ChrisK

Was the "head" moving around a lot?


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## frogparty

Sure looks like a proboscis Nemertean to me. Bye bye microfauna


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## tclipse

Here, you'll be needing this


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## DannyMeister

Sorry 

Did you just introduce something new to the viv? I learned the hard way to give all new plants a lengthy quarantine time because despite my best plant-cleaning efforts I got nemerteans as well.


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## Ed

It is a nemertean. 

Ed


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## tahir tareen

i know that these ugly things eat up microfauna, but how bad are they to have in vivs with frogs, i mean do most of you break down a tank because you find some or try to remove them by hand or just try to ignore them? i can see how in smaller tanks their population will boom and destroy microfauna, which is what seems to be happening in my cristobal froglets viv so im considering taking it down and starting another. I'm reluctant because i have read of many people who tore down, sterilized and started another tank only to find them again, bummer because they are so gross looking.


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## Ed

Not only do they feed on the microfauna but they alos will feed on the fruit flies you put into the cage for the frogs. This means that there any restraints on the populations due to food limits really don't exist. 

Ed


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## tahir tareen

yea i learned recently that the dead fruit flies on the glass were victims of the nemertean. it would be interesting to actually see one consuming a ff.


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## ChrisK

tahir tareen said:


> yea i learned recently that the dead fruit flies on the glass were victims of the nemertean. it would be interesting to actually see one consuming a ff.


Do a search for a thread started by me titled "Worm ID" and you'll see one eating a ff. I heard that they eat isopods too but the isopod population in that tank is still going strong.


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## DannyMeister

I have had no luck whatsoever in keeping isopods alive in my infected 29 gallon. The frog resident is a single leucomelas that I just keep giving multiple feedings per day since nothing stays alive for many hours. Can't wait to get his new home finished up. 

If you haven't seen a nemertean eating a fly yet, I expect you soon will.


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## tclipse

ChrisK said:


> Do a search for a thread started by me titled "Worm ID" and you'll see one eating a ff. I heard that they eat isopods too but the isopod population in that tank is still going strong.


Yeah, I've found that dwarf whites still survive and breed just fine despite nemerteans. I have the worms in 3 vivs and all three have large surviving long-term populations of white isos, while the springtails are long gone.


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## cbreon

Anyone know if terrestrial nemertean's have natural predators? Also, what are the species that we most likely encounter.


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## Ed

cbreon said:


> Anyone know if terrestrial nemertean's have natural predators? Also, what are the species that we most likely encounter.


There have been some trials to find a predator of them and using othere methods to get rid of them(see this site for example AJCs Frogroom: Search results for nemerteans). I haven't found a good reference for the potential species. 

Ed


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## cbreon

Ed said:


> There have been some trials to find a predator of them and using othere methods to get rid of them(see this site for example AJCs Frogroom: Search results for nemerteans). I haven't found a good reference for the potential species.
> 
> Ed


I couldn't find much substantial info either on the interwebs. Anyone looking for some post grad work, please do some studies on terrestrial nemerteans, there doesn't seem to be much info out there...


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## cbreon

Here's a quote from that link Ed, it seems like woodlouse (isopods) eat the young nemerteans and their eggs, so this would be a method of control...chalk one more up for the ispods, what can't they do?!?!

'I've recently had a limited degree of success in reducing the Nemertean populations in contaminated vivaria by adding the woodlouse Oniscus asellus to the vivarium at the rate of approximately one per five litres of vivarium space. This reduces but does not eliminate the Nemerteans, presumably because the woodlice consume the eggs or young worms. The effect wanes with time as Oniscus asellus does not seem to like wet vivaria and any offspring produced are consumed by frogs or Nemerteans, so the population is not sustained at the necessary level for control. Oh well, it's a start.'


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## Pumilo

Has anybody tried Giant Orange isopods to control them?


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## cbreon

it seems like isopods, potentially any isopod would eat nermetean eggs and young, but conversely the nermetean adults would eat the iso eggs and young. So, if you killed adult nermetean when you saw them and regularly seeded with isos it seems like you might be able to control/minimize them....


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## azure89

Does anyone know if these worms will eat eggs? My banded imi viv has them and I can never find any eggs in there and I see the pair courting fairly often

any help would be appreciated 

thanks


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## Ed

cbreon said:


> it seems like isopods, potentially any isopod would eat nermetean eggs and young, but conversely the nermetean adults would eat the iso eggs and young. So, if you killed adult nermetean when you saw them and regularly seeded with isos it seems like you might be able to control/minimize them....


So far (the owner of the site tried multiple isopod types) and the only ones that really showed a reduction were the Oniscus. They are a very large species of isopod and that only manages them while there are enough of the Oniscus. 

Ed


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## Ed

azure89 said:


> Does anyone know if these worms will eat eggs? My banded imi viv has them and I can never find any eggs in there and I see the pair courting fairly often


No, they don't eat the eggs or the tadpoles... 

Ed


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## Ed

cbreon said:


> I couldn't find much substantial info either on the interwebs. Anyone looking for some post grad work, please do some studies on terrestrial nemerteans, there doesn't seem to be much info out there...


I tried some alternate string searches and I think the nemertean we most commonly dread is _Argonemertes dendyi _(but there are other options as well...)It has a global distribution due to the trade in plants (and which is how I suspect it is the main mode of colonizing our enclosures). 

Ed


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## Ed

This narrows down the potential organisms and reinforces my tentative identification see http://si-pddr.si.edu/dspace/bitstream/10088/14814/1/iz_crandall_etal2001.pdf 

Ed


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## tclipse

Pumilo said:


> Has anybody tried Giant Orange isopods to control them?


Doug, the enclosures I have introduced P. scaber to have definitely seen a sharp decrease (but not full extermination) of nemerteans, I don't have enough oranges to confirm this at a level that I feel comfortable saying "oranges will kill nemerteans" though (especially as I only have three tanks with nemerteans to begin with). On a base level, it does seem that they control the numbers somehow. 



Ed said:


> No, they don't eat the eggs or the tadpoles...
> 
> Ed


This does seem to be the case, my lamasi and amazonica have been producing healthy eggs/tads on a regular basis despite the worms. I think the only cases where you might need to be worried are with pumilio and other obligate species that need tons of microfauna to grow well... luckily my obligate tanks are clear of them. 



Ed said:


> I tried some alternate string searches and I think the nemertean we most commonly dread is _Argonemertes dendyi _(but there are other options as well...)It has a global distribution due to the trade in plants (and which is how I suspect it is the main mode of colonizing our enclosures).
> 
> Ed


For the most part I would agree with plants as a method of spreading them, even with a quick bleach rinse they spread from two original tanks (I rebuilt both tanks) with the plants being the only common denominator. In my case, I believe they originally came in through leaves/substrate and were spread from there, as every plant that I've brought in gets some sort of treatment (the plants from the rebuilt tanks were treated a bit more lightly as I assumed the standard bleach rinse would work... looks like I was wrong), unless it's headed for an already infested viv... but it seems the usual 5-10% bleach rinse wasn't enough in my particular situation.


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## Armson

When i bought this setup I noticed them but didn't think anything of it. Just figured they were small worms. Looks like this system won't be having anything transferred out of it. 


On the flip side I have only seen them on rare occasions and my micro fauna in this system is still booming. I see all kinds of critters in the system. The only time micro fauna dropped in production was when frogs were introduced. 



-B


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## beatusb

Instead of a complete tear down and blrach, would a CO2 bomb work at eliminating them. I know it will kill all the microfauna, but if the worm is going to get them anyway. . . why not? I would guess that you would have to do multiple ones based on the life cycle of the worm. For example, if the eggs mature in 5 days. Doing it everyday for 5 days or leaving in the CO2 for 5 days should kill all worms and all that emerge from the eggs. Thoughts.


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## cbreon

Based on others experience a C02 bomb will not work b/c of the nemerteans relatively low 02 requirements and the fact that the C02 would not be able to penetrate deep enough into the soil. Large isos seem to be the best combatant so far. Although some are reporting smaller isos are still thriving in nemertean infested enclosures as well.


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## DannyMeister

This information on isos is interesting. I'll have to give it yet another go. For some reason neither giant orange nor the smaller whites have been able to establish a foothold in the viv which is infected with nemerteans. It may have been for a reason other than the nemerteans I suppose, but other than the worms, conditions are on par with other vivs in which they are currently thriving.


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## suztor

What if you put the co2 into your false bottom so it has to push through the soil to fill up? Probably need to do repeat bombings depending on their reproduction cycle to kill all of the life stages.


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## cbreon

suztor said:


> What if you put the co2 into your false bottom so it has to push through the soil to fill up? Probably need to do repeat bombings depending on their reproduction cycle to kill all of the life stages.


Based on what I have read that will not work because the nermerteans have a low o2 requirement. Also, if you have background that may also be a spot that could support the nermerteans that might not be penetrated by a co2 bombing. 

If you have a nermertean issue you could test the theory...


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## Ed

cbreon said:


> Based on others experience a C02 bomb will not work b/c of the nemerteans relatively low 02 requirements and the fact that the C02 would not be able to penetrate deep enough into the soil. Large isos seem to be the best combatant so far. Although some are reporting smaller isos are still thriving in nemertean infested enclosures as well.


If the nemertean in question is indeed _Argonemertes dendyi_, not only does it have a tolerance to low O2 enviroments but this species forms a resting cocoon out of mucous and I suspect that this futher increases it tolerance (and depending on how fast it could form it, they could very well survive a low O2 environent for quite awhile. This means that they can also survive a dry enviroment and potentially bleach disinfection. 
For a brief discussion on the resting cocoon see http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/654/v37n2-141-144.pdf?sequence=1
Ed


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## Ed

tclipse said:


> For the most part I would agree with plants as a method of spreading them, even with a quick bleach rinse they spread from two original tanks (I rebuilt both tanks) with the plants being the only common denominator. In my case, I believe they originally came in through leaves/substrate and were spread from there, as every plant that I've brought in gets some sort of treatment (the plants from the rebuilt tanks were treated a bit more lightly as I assumed the standard bleach rinse would work... looks like I was wrong), unless it's headed for an already infested viv... but it seems the usual 5-10% bleach rinse wasn't enough in my particular situation.


If my tentative identification is correct then this species forms a resting cocoon out of mucous and in a nook or cranny of a plant could easily provide sufficient protection that a 10-15% bleach bath won't stop them from being transferred. 

Ed


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## Ed

Armson said:


> On the flip side I have only seen them on rare occasions and my micro fauna in this system is still booming. I see all kinds of critters in the system. The only time micro fauna dropped in production was when frogs were introduced.
> B


They could have been recent colonizers into the tank. 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Armson said:


> When i bought this setup I noticed them but didn't think anything of it. Just figured they were small worms. Looks like this system won't be having anything transferred out of it.
> 
> 
> On the flip side I have only seen them on rare occasions and my micro fauna in this system is still booming. I see all kinds of critters in the system. The only time micro fauna dropped in production was when frogs were introduced.
> 
> 
> 
> -B





Ed said:


> They could have been recent colonizers into the tank.
> 
> Ed


Either that or maybe you are mistaking harmless Nematodes with the harmful Nemerteans that are being discussed.


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## goof901

will the frogs eat the nemerteans?


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## Armson

Pumilo said:


> Either that or maybe you are mistaking harmless Nematodes with the harmful Nemerteans that are being discussed.


Well that would explain the large micro fauna population that still exists under the leaf litter. 


Just fyi 

I bought this viv all ready setup in the spring of 2011. It was frog less until 1 month ago. I saw the first nemish thing when I brought the viv home. 


-B


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## goof901

to get rid of the nemerteans couldn't u take the frogs out and put in carniverous plants to eat the nemerteans?


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## PoisonFrog

How common are nemerteans?


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## Ed

goof901 said:


> to get rid of the nemerteans couldn't u take the frogs out and put in carniverous plants to eat the nemerteans?


That won't change the population that much, if at all. Carnivorous plants aren't going to reduce the population much if at all... 

Ed


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## tclipse

Ed, if bleach treatments might miss a few of these, is there any real countermeasure before adding plants to a tank? Quarantining plants in a different system wouldn't help much as it would only let you know that they're present, and then that system and any later plants would be infested as well.... I would think there has to be a way to get rid of them instead of just throwing plants out?


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## ChrisK

tclipse said:


> Ed, if bleach treatments might miss a few of these, is there any real countermeasure before adding plants to a tank? Quarantining plants in a different system wouldn't help much as it would only let you know that they're present, and then that system and any later plants would be infested as well.... I would think there has to be a way to get rid of them instead of just throwing plants out?


Yeah I was wondering if there was any way to totally prevent them also, maybe drying the plants?


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## tclipse

ChrisK said:


> Yeah I was wondering if there was any way to totally prevent them also, maybe drying the plants?


I would think that drying them might be what gets them to form the mucous cocoon in the first place, maybe this would make them even harder to kill? Frustration.....


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## frogparty

Yeah, much like Bacillus endospore formation...its probably only under stress that the mucus cocoon is formed. So keep your plants warm and moist for a week or so to encourage hatch out before you bleach them.


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## Ed

Cuttings.. If you let the plants dry while the substrate stays moist the worms will retreat into the substrate giving you the best opportunity to get cuttings.. Alternatively you can try a nematicide on them and report how well it works.. 

Ed


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## ChrisK

How about with broms? I think they're probably the biggest culprit.


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## Ed

ChrisK said:


> How about with broms? I think they're probably the biggest culprit.


That is actually one of the mainsuspects for me... If I get snails or slugs from a vendor in a quarantined shipment, I don't purchase from them again because if snails and slugs are in the mix, I suspect nemerteans are as well. 

Ed


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## Reef_Haven

Don't know if this article has been linked yet or not.
Nemerteans
Bipalium Vagum are known to eat only snails and slugs. I'd love to test one out on a few nemerteans.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/67796-bipalium-vagum-friend-foe.html


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## Lance

Well im battling a viv with these as well. Talked to Ed through pms and after chatting theres pretty much Not a lot you can do. Now ive thought of 2 things that could kill them. 1 Microwaves. Or 2 go down to a celluar level of attack. Cold to hot rapid temp change. Well lucky for me Canada was having -40 C days a few weeks back. Froze my drift wood piece of 3 days then boiled some water. By rights the worms cells should just pop from the rapid temp change. Guess ill find out in a few months if that worked. 
Now does anyone have a good method of peeling tree fern panels off glass?


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## Ed

Lance said:


> Now does anyone have a good method of peeling tree fern panels off glass?


If you can access it from the side use a stiff metal paint scraper. If you can't access it from a side, push the scraper through the panel (careful of the back glass) and slide it with the grain to break the tree fern up a little. Then use the scraper to try and pop a section off the glass. Usually the treefern will seperate from the silicone without too much effort (particularly if it has been kept wet for a long time). 

Ed


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## Ed

Reef_Haven said:


> Don't know if this article has been linked yet or not.
> Nemerteans
> Bipalium Vagum are known to eat only snails and slugs. I'd love to test one out on a few nemerteans.http://


I have doubts that it would eat them but it is worth a try. I'm not sure what we have locally that would really predate on them since the genera we are having problems with were introduced... 

Ed


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## yours

I'm quite curious if the GIANT ORANGE isopods will infact take on the worms, if established enough in a tank. Has anyone been able to confirm this yet, and/or experimenting??


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## jacobi

I just discovered what I believe to be Nemerteans in a culture of white isopods. I checked the container yesterday for the first time in several days, and my springtail population is booming. However, when looking through the clear plastic on the side of the container, I saw clusters of nemerteans as well. Upon closer examination, there are nemerteans EVERYWHERE in the container. I think I introduced them when I put in a mushroom for the springtails without sterilising (either microwave or baking) it (STUPID STUPID STUPID!), because I hadnt noticed them before.

This had led two two trains of thought. One, I am no longer eating raw mushrooms in my salad! Two, I am going to continue feeding the springtail population without any treatment for the nemerteans, however I will be sure to use only sterlised food sources. I'm going to keep track of the container, see how long the isopods last before the nemerteans kill them all. Not a very scientific experiment, no controls etc, but I'm curious to see what will happen. Has anybody run any experiments like this, to see whether the microfauna population is completely decimated or manages to stabilize?

I had another thought regarding the mucous cocoons. Most anti asthma medications contains mucus solvents, I was wondering whether that would have any effect on the nemerteans, if applied to plants pre bleach dip.


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## jacobi

jacobi said:


> I just discovered what I believe to be Nemerteans in a culture of white isopods. I checked the container yesterday for the first time in several days, and my springtail population is booming. However, when looking through the clear plastic on the side of the container, I saw clusters of nemerteans as well. Upon closer examination, there are nemerteans EVERYWHERE in the container. I think I introduced them when I put in a mushroom for the springtails without sterilising (either microwave or baking) it (STUPID STUPID STUPID!), because I hadnt noticed them before.
> 
> This had led two two trains of thought. One, I am no longer eating raw mushrooms in my salad! Two, I am going to continue feeding the springtail population without any treatment for the nemerteans, however I will be sure to use only sterlised food sources. I'm going to keep track of the container, see how long the isopods last before the nemerteans kill them all. Not a very scientific experiment, no controls etc, but I'm curious to see what will happen. Has anybody run any experiments like this, to see whether the microfauna population is completely decimated or manages to stabilize?
> 
> I had another thought regarding the mucous cocoons. Most anti asthma medications contains mucus solvents, I was wondering whether that would have any effect on the nemerteans, if applied to plants pre bleach dip.


Whoops. I meant springtails. Not isopods. They're in my culture of white springtails.


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## Pumilo

jacobi said:


> I just discovered what I believe to be Nemerteans in a culture of white isopods. I checked the container yesterday for the first time in several days, and my springtail population is booming. However, when looking through the clear plastic on the side of the container, I saw clusters of nemerteans as well. Upon closer examination, there are nemerteans EVERYWHERE in the container. I think I introduced them when I put in a mushroom for the springtails without sterilising (either microwave or baking) it (STUPID STUPID STUPID!), because I hadnt noticed them before.
> 
> This had led two two trains of thought. One, I am no longer eating raw mushrooms in my salad! Two, I am going to continue feeding the springtail population without any treatment for the nemerteans, however I will be sure to use only sterlised food sources. I'm going to keep track of the container, see how long the isopods last before the nemerteans kill them all. Not a very scientific experiment, no controls etc, but I'm curious to see what will happen. Has anybody run any experiments like this, to see whether the microfauna population is completely decimated or manages to stabilize?
> 
> I had another thought regarding the mucous cocoons. Most anti asthma medications contains mucus solvents, I was wondering whether that would have any effect on the nemerteans, if applied to plants pre bleach dip.


Are you sure they are not nematodes? Those would be more or less harmless, but would compete for the available food. As I understand it, if they are Nemerteans, and have grown to a large population size, your springtails should be decimated.


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## jacobi

They match the description and behavior that other people have posted here, so I'm fairly certain they're nemerteans. This particular culture of white springtails is in a 16 oz deli container, substrate is ABG mix. There are so many nemerteans in there I can barely see the top layer of substrate but there are still hundreds of springtails.


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## Ed

jacobi said:


> They match the description and behavior that other people have posted here, so I'm fairly certain they're nemerteans. This particular culture of white springtails is in a 16 oz deli container, substrate is ABG mix. There are so many nemerteans in there I can barely see the top layer of substrate but there are still hundreds of springtails.


With the exception of actually predating on something, the crawling behavior is very similar between not only nematodes and nemerteans but other small annelids. I would strongly suspect that you have a different contaminent. I've had small annelids contaminate springtail cultures before to the point, it was difficult to harvest the springtails.... 

Ed


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## Brandon C

Im all freaked out now, what are these in my springtail culture?


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## Ed

Not a nemertean.. It's hard to tell but at least one looks to have annulations so my first guess would be one of the members of the genus Enchytraeus. Harmless but possible competing with the springtails for food. Prepare some new cultures and then tilt the culture and blow across it to displace springtails into the new culture without the worms. 

Ed


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## goof901

Brandon C said:


> Im all freaked out now, what are these in my springtail culture?


what are the black cylindrical things?


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## Pumilo

goof901 said:


> what are the black cylindrical things?


Those are activated carbon, probably left over from a fish tank. Basically a souped up, ultra high quality charcoal.


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## jacobi

Ed said:


> With the exception of actually predating on something, the crawling behavior is very similar between not only nematodes and nemerteans but other small annelids. I would strongly suspect that you have a different contaminent. I've had small annelids contaminate springtail cultures before to the point, it was difficult to harvest the springtails....
> 
> Ed


Thanks. I realised after a little bit of of reading that they may be something else. No idea what though. I got rid of them, under threats of violence and personal extinction from my wife. I dumped the culture in a bucket of water, all the substrate and nemertean look alikes sank to the bottom, springtails floated to the top, and I blew the springtails off the water into a container. Worked better than I thought it would. I'll keep this culture separate for several generations, see what happens.


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## markpulawski

So after reading this I watched a tank closely after feeding only to see a couple of worms use rattlesnake type moves to pick off live fly's...cool thing though was to see the frogs then pick the flys away from the worms. Damn no wonder my spring tails disappear so quickly...baby worm food.


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## hamsterdave

This is an old thread, but I thought perhaps I could bait some folks back in to the discussion about controlling these little nasties.

Ed, what are your thoughts about using high-dose UV to sterilize plants being moved in to a vivarium to kill worms and eggs? Would the resting cocoon be likely to protect them from this as well?

I'm thinking if you could pull your plants out of a pretty comfortable environment for the worms and toss them straight under a really good source of UV (I don't mean cheap UVB bulbs, I mean high wattage UV water sterilization bulbs), I wonder if there would be enough intact DNA left for the little buggers to reproduce. 

It works gangbusters on some smaller multi-cellular and single celled critters, but I do know that some annelids have freakish resistance to DNA mutation/damage due to radiation. It probably wouldn't be the best thing for your plants, but I suspect it would take a lot longer for the plants to see a detrimental effect than it would for the worms.

I also wonder about rinses/soaks with something a bit more aggressive, concentrated peroxide or a relatively dilute acid, perhaps?

I wish I had some of these things to tinker with. It just so happens that I live with an accomplished researcher in the medical field who could probably help me devise some pretty solid experiments.


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## wikiwakawakawee

I wonder what would happen if we put an abundant amount of earth worms in our vivs with nemerteans...Make SUPER SIZED NAMERTEANS...haha just kidding, that would suck, they'd probably eat our frogs instead


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