# Ponds in a viv questions..



## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

DaSlackMan here... A bit about myself. I have been maintaining saltwater reef tanks for quite a few years. A fellow reefer posted some Dart frogs pictures in one of the forums that I am a memeber of. The pictures totally peaked my interest in the hobby. I have been doing research ever since.

My plan is to use one of my old tanks that is just sitting in a hallway as a viv. I believe it is an Oceanic 40g hex.

My initial questions involves the design of the bottom of the viv. There are a lot of posts that describe how to build a false bottom, pond, waterfall, shoreline, etc. It is just not clear to me if some of the features, specifically a pond, is a 'want' instead of a 'need'.

My initial question/concerns are:

Is it important to have some type of pond or shoreline? I am assuming that waterfalls play more of a 'want' aesthetic structure rather than a 'need' basic design feature that HAS to be incorporated within the viv but that a pond with some type of shoreline or wood structure (for the frogs to climb out) is a necessity for the overall health of the inhabitants.

I am assuming again that if you do have some type of water feature then there must be maintenance such as the removing of the old water and replacing with fresh water. If so, how often should the water be changed?

Any input is greatly appreciated.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2006)

I have personally found that ponds in addition to making a viv look great, help prevent water logged soil. You need to keep the plants watered, so what happens when you accidentally over water??? Unless you have a false bottom, this is going to be a problem cause you are gonna end up with a big muddy mess. 
With ponds, if you over water you can simply siphon out the excess water. 

Ponds that are surrounded by a ton of plants, and have a ton of plants in them require very little maintanence. I have one pond that has a low plant density, but its hooked up to a small external filter canister. Keeps the water clean. 

Having a pond helps increase the humdity level in your viv. Also, I would think that frogs like to see this because to them it means they don't have to worry about finding water.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I don't think any of the dart frogs commonly kept in the American hobby _need_ a water feature. However, certian frogs appear to prefer one. From what I've been told and witnessed, you will see Auratus and Vents moving around more in their tanks if there is running water in the tank. Now, that's not a set in stone rule as each frog has a bit of a personality. For most hobbiest it's a want thing because it represents the proverbial "next level" in tank building and because a good water feature looks great. In short, it depends on you abilities to build tanks and the frogs you choose to keep, but none of them require it.



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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Ponds are very easy to incorporate in your tank, and there are many simple ways to do it, recycling water over falls or bubbling it up through rocks in the pond itself with a small submersible pump. While I agree they aren't necessary, they certainly add a lot to the landscape and help moderate temperatures and humidity. Most of my darts seem to appreciate a water feature. You don't need any advanced technical expertise to build a false bottom and incorporate a pond and water fall feature. 

I've recently been using CocoTek Grow Slabs as a false bottom. One can just cut these to fit, shape and silicone them together as needed, then cut out a pond area, pump the water over falls or a drip background, hide the pump with smooth rocks, and hide the sides of the false bottom with gravel between the Grow Slabs and glass sides. With all the materials at hand, you can build a basic vivarium with a waterway in a day, add the substrate and plants, etc. after the silicone has cured. I put a layer of weed cloth between the hydroponic slabs and the substrate to filter out fine dirt particles, as the slabs are rather coarse to allow water flow through them. 

When I use the eggcrate method of building a false bottom, I cut out a section into which a plastic food container of appropriate size will fit-- punch the container full of holes so that water will circulate through it from the false bottom, and shape it from the top with overhanging flat rocks. This separates the pond from the rest of the false bottom so the frogs won't accidentally get caught under the substrate if they take a swim or try to hide in the pond. The pump always goes in the pond. The tubing and wires are hidden with corkbark or other material that builds the falls. The hard part is making sure this is all still accessible in case the pump fails and has to be replaced or gets clogged. You can do water changes if you need them by simply siphoning out the water from the pond and false bottom with a length of airline tubing and then replacing it by pouring more into the pond. 

I distinguish a false bottom from a drainage layer, and I recently discovered that others don't. A drainage layer merely drains off excess water from the substrate, and one removes this by siphoning it off. To me, a false bottom is always full of water that is circulated for a purpose. It drains the substrate as well, but recycles this drainage, filtering it back over falls or down tree fern bark panels with plants, moss and nitrifying bacteria that colonize both the tubing and falls. This system is self-contained to a great extent, and needs very little interference after it establishes, because it becomes biologically well-balanced. 

I was recently corrected about this distinction, but I still think it should be a valid one-- only because it has certainly worked well for me, and doesn't require any outside filters, canisters, water containers, or technical ability.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I've always been under the impression that a false bottom is exactly that, a viv with the bottom of the tank elevated by an artifical means to provide a water reservoir, usually done with egg crate. To me a drainage layer would be an aggregate of sorts. I think this is the way most people define the terms judging by the way I've read them used with their purpose not playing a role in the definition. 

Just out of curiosity, what about your distinction where you corrected for?



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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

KISS is my motto, too, which was my point in the post, and I can't remember just who gave me a ration about false bottoms, or on what forum, but I definitely felt I had been off base after I read it, because he was very authoritative about it, and I'm an old fart with atrophies of senility I even recognize myself occasionally. I believe I was told in no uncertain terms that false bottoms were for drainage and had nothing to do with recycling the water. This confused me into thinking I was wrong about the definitions that people accepted. When I get a post from someone who calls himself "poison frog licker" or whatever intimidating name people come up with, I tend to back off and believe I may be wrong rather than argue the point. That wasn't the name, of course, but when someone comes up strong with an opinion against me like that, I figure they probably know more than I do, even if they are only 14 years old, which may have been the case. Anyway, I figured I'd better put in a disclaimer on the post, just in case.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Interesting. I usually do the same thing unless I know I'm right and have proof to back it up. Considering there isn't a frog hobby dictionary I just make sure when I'm talking to someone we're on the same page. I've always considered it to be kinda rude to correct someone when there is no real "right" way or definition. At least your distinction has logic behind it, there are some ways that people break stuff up that just baffles me.



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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

First of all, thank you to everyone who left input. As in saltwater reefs, there are many different ways to accomplish the same goals. In my opinion, looking at multiple configurations will only make the final set up that much better.

I will be incorporating some type of pond but have made no decisson if I will go with an eggcrate false bottom or go the LECA route. And then there is the issue about a waterfall....

So many decissions to make....


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

A great place to look to see how all of it's done are the construction journals in the "Member's Frogs and Vivariums" forum. The work and methods some people is just ingenious. I usually start endlessly at pictures in there for inspiration when it's time to build a new tank.



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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

I have checked that part of the forum out. Talk about eye candy... 8)


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

i would like to add.

Be careful when adding a pump. I have recently figured out one reason why I have so many heat issues IS, (and not the lights) from the water pump.

I highly suggest you aim for an air cooled sump if you'd like to try a water feature. I have taken out most of my old false bottoms because the water temps would raise by 4-5 degrees and the pumps got clogged repeatedly. I had none of these issues when I used a sump for my mantella tank, but my sump also had plenty of air circulation.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2006)

Personally I believe that an external filter is a better way to go than a submersible pump. You dont have to mess around with the viv if you wanna service the filter, it doesnt just move the water, it cleans it, and you can use it to make waterfalls, streams, or even ponds with a current! The only limitation would be the power on the pump in the filter. But they make those in all powers. So let us know what you decide.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

khamul, if you're thinking about those turtle tanks that have a side compartment for an external powerfilter, I think that would be overkill for such a tiny tank.

Canister filters are the good(but sumps are better), but once again, heat can be a problem. Some people have been able to make a DIY canister filter from a submersible pump.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2006)

Well, you are right, if you have a little pond. But I got a good square foot 3" deep water feature going and I use a little zoomed 501 canister filter. So, yea, I failed to realize that. If you plan on having a little itty bitty water feature, and sump is best.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Doug--

You do have a point about the submersible pumps creating heat that may either be a help in a cool room, or a problem in hot weather, depending of course, on the size of the pool and how it is circulated. I've also noticed that different brands seem to create more heat than others. Clogging problems depend upon the way the pump is set up and how much garbage gets into your false bottom from the substrate. So some kind of pre-filtering is necessary, such as the separate perforated plastic container I mentioned, the weed cloth between the substrate and false bottom, etc. The Coco Tek slabs also do some efficient filtering. But you still do have to occasionally clean out, repair or replace even the best of the pumps in an internal system, which is is somewhat awkward to do, even with the best accessibility planning.


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

What brand is the defacto standard for those who do use a pump? Any one use mini/maxi jets?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I am currently using a Mini-Jet 606 in my 75g and can't complain. It's small, quiet and has just enough umph for my waterfall. I've used one of the Duetto pumps and didn't like it. Poor performance for the price and became quite noisy after a short time.



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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

I was thinking using a maxi jet 606. I have them running phosban reactors on my two reef tanks. Not a lot of heat and, as you stated, powerful enough to get the job done for a specific application..


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

i use a maxijet 606 on my bombina tank and turned it off, as it raised the water by 5-6 degrees. However, the same pump doesn't raise much in my mantella's sump, due to evaporative cooling.

All depends how much water you have.

I do not like Duettos or really any submersible filter. I think the new airstone in place of my maxijet pump works even better and no threat of clogs or overheating.


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

The maxi jet (or another submersible pump) would be used to cycle a waterfall... Maybe I am misunderstanding something here. Are you saying that you use an airstone to drive your waterfall?


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

I think he's just using it to move the water around.

I just ordered a Pentair QuietOne1200. It can be used dry or submerged. I plan on using it to pump a small waterfall in my 18 high. My only concern is the GPH (like 295). I will probably have to use a bypass to lower the flow. I will post my findings as soon as i get a chance to try it out.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm already having a problem because I can't use a sump in my bedroom for my mantellas, so I'm going to have to find ways to cool the water a bit, even if I install a window AC.

Perhaps, just let the pump turn off at night with a timer to make the night time temperature drop a higher gradient.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I like both the Maxi-jet 600 and the Rio 600. I was going to mention on the past post that the Maxi-jet 600 does seem to run a bit warmer, but seems to have less clogging potential and appears to last longer over-all. I replace impellors more often on the Rio pumps. The Rio is somewhat more compact over-all and easier to place in a hidden position. These are just my impressions. I've never done any controlled testing. There is also a minor problem with the pumps getting coated with calcium deposits eventually. (I have very hard water from a limestone aquifer.) In this case, I have to remove the pump and soak it in straight white vinegar, perhaps every 6 months or so. I use pumps only with water features such a falls or small fountains. Otherwise, I agree, that an air bubbler would be a much simpler way to move the water around and prevent anaerobic conditions, which is what makes the uncirculated ponds stinky.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2006)

*Fellow Reefer here!*

I too have set up an old drilled 46 gal bowfront reeftank to use as my viv, it is looking awsome!! I siliconed an acrylic wall (6" tall) from the back glass,with the hole in between the acrylic and glass curving it around the front, keeping it 3 inches from the front glass, to the other side of the tank. Making sure I siliconed the acrylic to the glass very well then let it cure over night and filled the dam with water. Voila! A little river in the front and in the back side of the river I layed Light diffuser down, Covered it with Cotton batting sheets, over that I poured in activated charcoal to help with the smell, Over that a liner of papertowels. then I poured in my substrate, plants, moss, bark, etc.
I also have a lovely waterfall that I made from spray foam and a waterfall kit from Home Depot. It looks awsome and my Humidity is a steady 95% with temp 85. As soon I I get my camera back fom being repared I'll post some pics.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I'm having trouble picturing this set-up. I don't know what a light diffuser is, or why one would need it. I also wonder a bit about exactly where cotton batting and paper towels come in to a more or less "permanent" vivarium set-up for dart frogs, that ideally recylces biologically in a low-maintenance tank, where paper towels and cotton batting wouldn't last more than a week. I think I'm mostly confused and curious. Some pictures would be helpful. It's just a bit different from anything I've ever heard or tried before, but live and learn.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

When he said "light diffuser" I think he was referring to egg crate, the stuff commonly used or false bottoms. As for cotton batting and paper towels i don't know, it doesn't sound like it would last long to me either.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2006)

The light diffuser is the plastic thing that goes in light fixtures to disperse the light. It is called egg crate most of the time, But I call it that because that is what it is sold as in Home Depot. The batting is to keep the activated charcoal from falling through the diffuser then the paper towel is used for a thin liner to keep the substrate seperate from the charcoal. It is like using screen, 
Just think of everything in layers. 
top substrate
paper towel liner
charcoal
sheet batting
light diffeser ( this keeps my substrate from staying wet and sloppy. Because any water that may want to accumulate, stays in the false bottom area.) Like if I make my river overflow and it pours over into the substrate.
I would say that it is built (in essence) like a Jaubert/Plenum in a salt water/reef aquarium. Meaning it is built in layers like a plenum is. But if you are already having difficulty invisioning the set up before, you will really be confused when you read about the Jaubert/Plenum.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2006)

Im sure your aware that the paper towel is probably decomposed with in a month if not sooner. 

Matt


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2006)

I am aware of this. It was just to keep everything stable while filling the tank . Just so the substrate would not fall through to the false bottom.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Once the sheet badding decomposes the charcoal (asumming it's smaller than the holes in the egg crate) will fall though the false bottom. You'd be better off using weed cloth. Will do the same job and not decompose.



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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I’m curious as to how many people have stagnant (unfiltered or circulated) pond areas in their enclosures. I’ve seen these in some people’s galleries and wonder if they become foul. If not how is this prevented?


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2006)

Im sorry the batting is Polyester not cotton, So no decomposing of that will happen. 
All this confusion everyone seems to have about my set up alarms me. Does no one have an imagination? Or does everyone's set up have to be just like everyone elses?


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> I’m curious as to how many people have stagnant (unfiltered or circulated) pond areas in their enclosures. I’ve seen these in some people’s galleries and wonder if they become foul. If not how is this prevented?


I too am interested in this. My gut call is the stagnant water has to be replaced (with fresh) every so often due to the fact that there is no filtration (or at least I can't see it)..


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I just drain my false bottom every month or so, the longest has been around 6 months though. The water doesn't smell stagnant at all. My guess would be from the decreased pH from the soil.



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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

defaced said:


> I just drain my false bottom every month or so, the longest has been around 6 months though. The water doesn't smell stagnant at all. My guess would be from the decreased pH from the soil.


When you say that you drain your false bottom... Do you use something as simple as a turkey baster to suck out the old water or is your set up much more elaborate?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

A 5/16 hole drilled in the bottom of the tank with a plug made of silicone in it. I've also used water proof duct tape but it didn't work out too well. Basically I turn the tank so I can get to the hole, it's about 1-2" from the front corner of the tank, put a trash can under it and pull the plug. I come back 20 minutes later, put the plug in and go on my way. 

I do the drain for my vivs that don't have a water feature. With a water feature I usually siphon from an open area of water, like a pond. Depending on the depth of the water and if there is debris in it I'll use different sized hoses. Big hose for deep water or with lots of junk. little hose for shallow or clean water.



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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

You can purchase weed cloth at any nursery by the roll, and it is actually less expensive per yard than paper towels.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Defaced,

Are you saying that in a viv with a pond that has absolutely no form of mechanical circulation (bubbles or pump), you only change the water once a month without any problems? Is this in a viv with a false bottom or a drainage layer?

In rereading the above I realized that it may sound as though I’m about to be critical. I’m not, just honestly interested in how people do these things.


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2006)

I always want that water to keep moving. But my pond in my 29 gallon tank has a small pump in some far off corner, doesnt move the water too much. But it has to be doing something, afterall its sucking water up from somewhere, right?? Other than that, the water feature is kept chock full of plants. I've got tons of Salvinia natans, and the parts where I keep that undercontrol I've got Cryptocoryne wedetii, I also have what seems to be an ever blooming Anubias barterii, I've got Syngonium podophyllums, and one Spathiphyllum wallisii (Anyone notice a trend here? I've got two Aglaonema commutatum in the land section grown from seed). And then there is moss from the land invading the pond. I think I have enough biological filtration from the gravel, rocks, and plants to keep the water clean. Isnt that how nature does it? 
Incidentally I have recently noticed little tiny grey shrimp like creatures wizzing about the pond to and fro. I hope this is a good sign. What do you think?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Sounds like amphipods, do they look like http://www.seahorse.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2006)

never mind, the link is working.

Hmm, I dont know I can't tell. It would be nice to see them swimming around. They seem to reach about twice the size of a hydeii fruit fly. Almost anyway. They look like they are swimming belly up.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I found a shorter one (see above).


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2006)

I managed to take some bad pics of the "shrimp" that are swimming around in my pond. Maybe this will help you out.




























The red thing are the eyes of the fruit fly it was eating.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> you only change the water once a month without any problems? Is this in a viv with a false bottom or a drainage layer?


Yep, and when I do I don't find anything abnormal about the water. This is the case with two tanks both with drainage layers. One has a pond section, on does not. The pond section gets a bit funky which I believe is because of its access to oxygen, but I really can't back that up.



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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Khamul,

That is an amphipod, sometimes called a scud. I doubt they will cause any problems. They are probably just scavenging.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Thanks Defaced.


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## Guest (Feb 11, 2006)

Thanks!! I love coming here for info. Its like a free University!!!
I'm surprised you could figure that out from the pics.


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*plant*

khamul-
what kind of plant is that growing on the top of your pond?i'd love to get some...also,i'm sure it acts as natural filtration...


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2006)

thats Salvinia natans i believe
I have tons of it if you like I can send some.


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

Thinking along these lines, I would assume that the planting of aquatic plants (C lucens, L brasiliensis, etc.) directly in the 'pond' would help as a natural filter and that water movement (or drainage) may not be as necessary...


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2006)

I've always thought so. My pond with the Salvinia also has duckweed, Cryptocorynes, moss, and its got Syngonium, Spathyphyllum, and Anubias roots growing in it. So all that is what I believe has kept the water nice and clean. Isnt that how nature does it?


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

I like the looks of the viv's that have some type of plant acutally planted in the water features. It seems to accomplish two things. Filtration and a more natural look to the vivarium.


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

I have small ponds in all my tanks. I also use a false bottom and the water in the ponds is always fine, no detectable levels of amonia, nitrite or nitrate. I personally think that all the plant roots take up the amonia before it can enter the nitrogen cycle. I even have a retic tadpole that just popped front legs in one of the ponds. George


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## DaSlackMan (Feb 3, 2006)

George-Do you have them planted directly in your ponds? My plan is to plant either (or both) L. brasiliensis or C. lucens into my water features whether it be a pond or a faux river being fed by a waterfall...


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

*pond*

I actually plant them in the gravel in the "dry" portion of the terrarium. I use terrestrial and marginal plants but the roots extend into the water in the false bottom. george


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2006)

I have cyrptocorynes plants planted directly in the water. I also have a large or medium sized anubias planted in the middle of the pond. At least it was the middle of the pond once upon a time. I filled in half the pond with gravel to give my toads more walking space.

George,
How many small ponds do you have in your tank? Or did you mean one small pond in each of the more than one viv you have?? I think it would be really nice to see more than one small pond, like water filled pot holes in a viv. If this is what you have, lets see a pic, if you can, please. 
Thanks.


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