# Odd dart frog behavior



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

Hello, I am not sure where to post this, but…..I have a D. Tinctorius Blue Sip and he/she is 3 no out of water in a grow out container. It has always done this odd “thing” and tonight I actually thought it was dead. I was finishing final preparations and on the tank so I can move him and my other 2 blue sips into their community tank. I finished up and went to feed them. Tonight it was fruit flies supplemented with super pig. Tonight I noticed he was dug I to his sphagnum moss and he wasn’t moving. I washed my hands dried them and took him out. Nothing. I nudged him and nothing. He was still breathing and his throat was moving like they do. So I knew he was alive. I started to panic thinking I have messed up my supplementation schedule or something like that. I misted his moss ….it was a tad dry on top and humidity in his tub was only 55%. I put him in a bowl and poured RO water around him and kinda splashed onto his body to get him nice and moist. Nothing. So thinking he was dead I walked away to go feed the other frogs. I came back and he was out of the bowl on the counter just hopping around. Now he is eating. He does this a lot. Almost as if I don’t feed him early enough and he goes to sleep and sleeps hard??? Does anyone know what to make of his behavior???


----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

This is not normal behaviour.


Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste -- please don't quote because that makes it hard to read the responses):


1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?


2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?


3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?


4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?


5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).


6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?


7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?


10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? Dendrobates Tinctorius Green Sip (I think I said Blue initially). I have raised these frogs since they were tadpoles. They are 3 months oow. His exact date oow is 08/13/21. I bought them as tadpoles from a local store called The Pet World Experience and they came to them from Dart Frog Connection.


2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type? Day temps range from 70-75 nights drop to about 65-67. I measure with a temp gun and an internal analog gauge. No supplemental heating.


3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium? There is no lighting on the enclosure, I open curtains in the daytime to allow natural light into the room.


4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)? Humidity averages about 75%-85%. Currently hand misting due to the set up and I most as needed on nights I am not supplementing. I only use RO water for ANYTHING dealing with my frogs


5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they). They are each in individual sterilize shoe boxes with vent holes drilled all sides on the top and a normal lid to the tub.


6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)? I feed mostly fruit flies (Melano), springtails, and dwarf purple isopods. Supplements used are Repcal Calcium with Vitamin D, Repcal Herptivite, Repashy Vitamin A plus, Repashy Superpig, and Tepashy Calcium Plus. They are 4 month old supplements and they are stored on a shelving unit next to the enclosures. I’ll take a picture of my dusting and feeding schedule.


7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ? No, he is by himself and aside from food and springtails is by himself.

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ? No other odd behavior. He is a great eater and moves well, no odd deformities that I see.

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ? I only touched him last night to put him in a soak. No chemicals near the enclosures not near a bathroom


10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.



fishingguy12345 said:


> This is not normal behaviour.
> 
> 
> Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste -- please don't quote because that makes it hard to read the responses):
> ...


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

forgot the feeding and supplementation. Schedule which is now attached



fishingguy12345 said:


> This is not normal behaviour.
> 
> 
> Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste -- please don't quote because that makes it hard to read the responses):
> ...


----------



## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

1: 55% is way too low for tinctorius long-term.
2: Remove the sphagnum moss, and add much more leaf litter. Sphagnum does virtually nothing for dendrobatids.
3: I always recommend ONLY Repashy calcium plus at every feeding. It is a complete supplement for most dendrobatids, especially froglets.
4: Add some vivarium-safe wood or cork bark to the bin to provide shelter and topographical diversity.
5: Do not beat yourself up if the frog does not make it. Aside from natural fatality rates, we all have made mistakes in the hobby. The important thing is that we learn from them and improve our husbandry.

Side note-can you elaborate on the term “community tank”? What are you planning on keeping in it?

-Oscar


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

MidniteWolf0715 said:


> I misted his moss ….it was a tad dry on top and humidity in his tub was only 55%.


Trying to gauge moisture needs using RH can and does lead to providing way too little moisture for dart frogs. Best bet is to add water ("mist", but in many vivs this should be more like "rain"; growouts with sphagnum are different and sometimes fussier, though) at least once each morning and more times daily if needed. RH meters are misleading and, IMO, dangerous.



MidniteWolf0715 said:


> Repcal Calcium with Vitamin D, Repcal Herptivite,


These are best discarded in the trash and the containers recycled. They are not suitable supplements for insectivores. The supplement schedule you're following should also be discarded; it is bad information. I agree that only "Repashy Calcium Plus" is needed in your current situation, and should be used on every fly at every feeding. Repashy Calcium Plus contains enough Vit A for growing frogs, and already includes SuperPig. More info here.


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

My humidity only dropped that low temporarily. I added more leaf litter after reading this. I also added a small pc of cork bark and more springtails. By community rank I mean to remove him and the other 2 from their individual grow out bins and put them together in a vivarium that has been cycling for about 3 months since I bought them as tads. They are all the same breed and color. Thank you for the advice. This morning he was all over hopping around and eating. In essence acting completely normal, but the behavior is intermittent and at night.


Eurydactylodes said:


> 1: 55% is way too low for tinctorius long-term.
> 2: Remove the sphagnum moss, and add much more leaf litter. Sphagnum does virtually nothing for dendrobatids.
> 3: I always recommend ONLY Repashy calcium plus at every feeding. It is a complete supplement for most dendrobatids, especially froglets.
> 4: Add some vivarium-safe wood or cork bark to the bin to provide shelter and topographical diversity.
> ...


----------



## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

This deserves repeating:



Socratic Monologue said:


> I agree that only "Repashy Calcium Plus" is needed in your current situation, and should be used *on every fly at every feeding*.


Looking at your supplement schedule, it appears that you've only been giving Repashy Calcium + twice a month. That's quite possibly the reason for this frog's odd behavior. Hopefully, you've caught this early enough to correct any potential nutritional deficiency. It looks like you're trying to do this as carefully as you can, and you've been thorough in answering the questions, providing good photos, and keeping track of your husbandry routine, so I can see that you're very invested in your frogs' care. Even if this little one doesn't make it- and I hope he does- this information should (hopefully) help prevent a similar thing from occurring with the rest of your frogs.


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

I appreciate everyone’s advice, I got my supplementation schedule from Josh’s frogs and applied it to what I feed my darts. It was specific to darts too. I hope I can turn this around. So I literally ONLY need repashy calcium plus every day?? Except for when I feed springtails that is. Although my springtails cultures are cultured on calcium bearing clay and fed bakers yeast. So I shouldn’t need to supplement them right??? It’s odd he is the only one affected like this so hopefully this is the issue and it is caught early enough. Thank you all for not bashing me and recognizing that I AM trying


----------



## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Yes, use Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding. I feed mine every other day, but you can feed frogs daily if you're monitoring their weight, and not giving too many flies at each feeding. Raising springtails on calcium bearing clay should be sufficient, since the supplements on the flies should cover it. You may also find it helpful to place some calcium bearing clay in a petri dish, or on a yogurt lid, slightly wetted, and leave it in your enclosures. There are a few threads about that here, so I hope you'll look into that in greater detail. Using the search function and reading the stickies at the tops of each of the subforums here will bring you a lot of benefit. You'll find a lot of your questions answered there, though I don't mean to discourage you from asking questions. It's not just information, but interaction that makes the hobby fun.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

MidniteWolf0715 said:


> Except for when I feed springtails that is. Although my springtails cultures are cultured on calcium bearing clay and fed bakers yeast. So I shouldn’t need to supplement them right???


Correct -- it is really not practical to attempt to supplement springtails no matter how they're cultured. Picking out and supplementing dwarf isopods is also an unnecessary waste of effort, IMO.

Usually (for all "beginner" type frogs, and all adult frogs) the FFs are the food you provide and supplement. Springs and isos are great to have in the viv as indigenous microfauna that not only keep the place a little cleaner but provide an occasional snack to the frogs. I personally wouldn't provide extra springs as a meal to tincs, though reseeding the viv from time to time might have merit.


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Correct -- it is really not practical to attempt to supplement springtails no matter how they're cultured. Picking out and supplementing dwarf isopods is also an unnecessary waste of effort, IMO.
> 
> Usually (for all "beginner" type frogs, and all adult frogs) the FFs are the food you provide and supplement. Springs and isos are great to have in the viv as indigenous microfauna that not only keep the place a little cleaner but provide an occasional snack to the frogs. I personally wouldn't provide extra springs as a meal to tincs, though reseeding the viv from time to time might have merit.


Ok got it, wow I learn more and more. Just when you think ya got it all down pat. So, I have been reading a lot of things on like here and reviews other places….I feel like Josh’s Frogs is not the MOST reputable place to get my info. So much so that I have been going to neherpetoculture and Houston frogs for a lot of my stuff now. Am I to understand this correctly. I’m sure there are a lot of differing opinions. But like my feeding and supp schedule for darts came straight off their site lol. It seems easier than they made it and more cost effective than they made it seem


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

go to these Forums for your info. Anyone selling stuff is going to produce a few 'skewed' things authored by one or two people. Here you will get help from more than a dozen and you can see their time in the hobby and post count / reputation easily.


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

Philsuma said:


> go to these Forums for your info. Anyone selling stuff is going to produce a few 'skewed' things authored by one or two people. Here you will get help from more than a dozen and you can see their time in the hobby and post count / reputation easily.


Gotcha, that makes sense. These are my first darts. I started with 3 Boulanger and 3 green sips. I lost a Boulanger as a tad and another shortly after it came oow. I’m surprised I got this far and I want to make sure I do it right. I have developed such a bond with them already lol. I guess you see the name everywhere and assume everything they say is true. But I DO tend to come here more and more frequently. I appreciate all your guys time and advice. I’m sure you’ll see me around with more questions as I encounter them!!


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

A note on sphagnum: I do not use it in full tanks aside from getting plants started, but I always use a bit in my grow out tanks. I usually pack one end of the grow out with it, and the rest (probably 3/4 of the footprint) is leaf litter and live plants. I find the small grow outs have a tendency to dry out a bit too fast otherwise. Always ensure there is somewhere in the grow out where they can be dry (leaves/plants etc.).


----------



## MidniteWolf0715 (Aug 5, 2021)

Chris S said:


> A note on sphagnum: I do not use it in full tanks aside from getting plants started, but I always use a bit in my grow out tanks. I usually pack one end of the grow out with it, and the rest (probably 3/4 of the footprint) is leaf litter and live plants. I find the small grow outs have a tendency to dry out a bit too fast otherwise. Always ensure there is somewhere in the grow out where they can be dry (leaves/plants etc.).


Awesome advice, Thanks!!


----------

