# "Probing" For Interest...



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

So I've been thinking a bit about these data loggers that you can basically set up and leave, and they'll automatically take measurements at predetermined intervals. I'd love to get this model:

DS1923-F5 - Dallas Hygrochron Temperature & Humidity iButton: Embedded Data Systems

This takes both temperature and humidity readings, which I would personally deem more important than just temperatures. Ideally, I'd like to get many of these things so I could have at least one (ideally more than one) per pumilio population. But that is cost prohibitive. I'm going to take temperature/humidity data on frogs as I find them, but that would not be nearly as nice as a constant log.

So I'm curious. Would there be interest among the Dendroboard community to "donate" these button loggers to be used over a long term study for various pumilio populations? In reading about the loggers, I could set them to take a reading every hour, which would provide a data set for about 11 months. I would set them up in May, and periodically check on them for 2-3 months, then download the data before I leave, which would leave a couple options. Collect them and take them back or leave them to collect data for the next 11 months when I'd collect those data again in the following summer when I return. All in all, there would potentially be about 14 months straight of data collection.

I think that a data set like this would be the first of its kind for any dart frog species. You should be able to tell when the dry season is and even when it rains, how long it rains, and how many times a day it rains. And obviously, if DB members donated the loggers, I'd post all of the data on DB for all to access. I would like to return data logs to donors if possible, but given how unpredictable the climate can be (curious locals stealing stuff or cutting down trees with buttons attached or some animal breaking it off, etc), I think that there would be a possibility for some to get lost. I'd of course try to prevent that (would mean lost data!), but with such a tiny thing, it's possible.

This would be something I'd do basically for the hobby since I don't think that it will have a whole lot of scientific potential (it might, but I'm expecting it would be better as a reference set).

So would something like this garner interest among froggers? I really think that this would be the first data set of its kind for dart frogs, and for those that try to replicate the conditions the frogs live in, well, I could think of no better data set to refer to. Thoughts?


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

looks to eb a great Idea to me! wish i had some pumilios though, why not just use it for all kinds of frogs not just pumilios?


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Well, I'm going to be doing my research on pumilio so those will be the populations that I see. The data certainly could be used for all kinds of dart frogs (especially the rainfall/humidity data), but it would be specified for pumilio and sympatric species (some auratus morphs, lugubris, and talamancae).


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

will your research be conducted out on the field or in captive vivaria, or both?


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

In the field. I'd place these probes close to the ground where the frogs were, so they'd be recording data in the microhabitats that the frogs are using.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

are there any specific morph and population you plan to focus on?


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I'm going to be hitting at least a dozen populations while I'm down there, so I figured I'd set them up as I hit the populations. The ones that I'd likely hit would be:

Bastimentos
Colon
Solarte
Shepherd's Island
San Cristobal
Almirante
Cayo de Agua
Aguacate
Popa North
Popa South
Uyama
Robalo

Other possible populations that I will visit include:

Escudo
Valiente Peninsula
Guabo
Guaramo
Rambala
Cauchero
Esperanza
Loma Partida
Changuinola
Pelican Key

And possibly a few others.

Like I said, it'd be nice to get a few different readings for each population, but I just don't think that that would be in the cards simply because of the cost involved.

Since this would be made possible by pet hobby people, I'd put preference on the morphs present in the hobby, first, and then work towards the more obscure morphs out there.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

how long of a period of time are you planning to record the data?


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Depending on what people's opinions were, a minimum of 2-3 months, or a maximum of about 14 months (I'd like to do this, but this carries more of a risk of buttons being lost).


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i hear yoru problem with the buttons being lost, but i think you would need to do this over a period of atleast a year to get a more accurate environment data based on seasons, one thing is that you could get the data retrieved every 3 months.


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Well, it'd be nice if I could do that, but I won't be able to. I'm going to be in Panama May through August, then I'll be back in the states until next May when I return to Panama for another 2-3 months. It's possible that I might get a chance to zip down there in the winter, but I don't think that that is likely, so they'd basically be left there to record data for 10ish months until I return the following year.

I agree, a full year would be ideal, and if people were okay with assuming the possibility of buttons getting lost, then that's what I'd shoot for, but at very minimum, I'd have 2-3 months of data which, to my knowledge, is more than we have now and that'd be during the wet season when frogs are breeding like mad, so if I had to choose any time of the year, it'd be then.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

how many buttosn are you planning on placing at each site?


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Realistically, probably just one because of cost issues, but if I garnered a lot of interest and support, I'd like to put several out for each location so that I am not stuck with one data set that might be odd (in a sunny spot or something). I'd try to avoid that, but the more data I can get, the more accurate it will be in representing the environmental conditions.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Did you try contacting TWI and see what kind of support they provide?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Realistically, probably just one because of cost issues, but if I garnered a lot of interest and support, I'd like to put several out for each location so that I am not stuck with one data set that might be odd (in a sunny spot or something). I'd try to avoid that, but the more data I can get, the more accurate it will be in representing the environmental conditions.


Just a thought here... in some respects it would be better to use several in one location as opposed to one in several locations. If you were in an area long enough to identify calling sites, egg deposition sites, times of day foraging is occuring (at several levels) and nightime retreats, getting the data from those sites would be of better value in evaluating activity parameters than getting general data from multiple locations with less correlation than how those parameters are affecting the frogs. 

Have you checked out the various grants given by Zoos as this data would have applications for husbandry? 
See http://zacc-conference.org/downloads/grants_available.pdf 

Ed


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Julio, I did make the post on the TWI forums, and there does seem to be some interest.



Ed said:


> Just a thought here... in some respects it would be better to use several in one location as opposed to one in several locations. If you were in an area long enough to identify calling sites, egg deposition sites, times of day foraging is occuring (at several levels) and nightime retreats, getting the data from those sites would be of better value in evaluating activity parameters than getting general data from multiple locations with less correlation than how those parameters are affecting the frogs.


Right, and I agree. It's that balance issue. If given unlimited funds, I'd be set so it, but since that's not the case, it begs the question "is it better to get loads of data for just a couple populations or is it better to get less data for many populations?" I would kind of feel like I would be cutting myself off at the knees if I were to do the first because I think that the microclimates for these populations differ. How much, I don't know, but I can't say for certain that I'd be comfortable, for instance, using data from Isla Colon on Escudo frogs.



> Have you checked out the various grants given by Zoos as this data would have applications for husbandry?
> See http://zacc-conference.org/downloads/grants_available.pdf
> 
> Ed


Ed, you're killing me, lol. I just got done applying to all sorts of grants for research and am partially brain dead because of it. I only really started thinking of the applications that these little sensors could be used for in the last couple days so I hadn't thought of looking into funding for it yet. I just just kind of spit-balling here to see if there would be interest. I hadn't even thought about other places it could be used. I'd be collecting the data for pumilio, but there's no reason that the same data couldn't also be used for sympatric species that are commonly in zoos.

I'll have to look into it. Thanks for the link!


----------



## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

one quick thought i had with the problem of loosing the buttons is fluorescent orange surveyors tape tied in a tree or bush above it, and a GPS. the gps would get you within 10 feet and the tape even if it became covered with moss or lichens would be easy enough to remember where it was.

during a study i was involved in last summer we on occasion couldnt pick up a radio signal to the individual animal (C. v. viridis) we were tracking so we would look at the last recorded location, type the waypoint in and the gps would lead us to the exact prarie dog hole the way point was set at... and there are several hundreds of holes, then we would be able to pick up a signal, being closer to where the animal was last.


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I would certainly mark them with GPS coordinates and tape, but I'm more concerned with people tampering with them. I'd hope that they'd be boring and unassuming, so people wouldn't notice or wouldn't bother, but you can't guarantee that, unfortunately.


----------



## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

humm.. yeah, i guess you could paint them a drab color so that they dont stand out but then they would be much easier to loose although much less attention grabbing. you know what they say about guys and shiny objects 

but seriously those look like a great thing to have both in the field and in a vivarium setting.


----------

