# More arboreal species?



## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

I'm thinking I'm going to do a much taller enclosure. What are some good species to look at that would utilize the vertical space?

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## surfindude686 (Jul 15, 2020)

What dimensions are you thinking? Do you currently keep any darts? From what I’ve read practically any species will use all available space. My auratus definitely climb although they spend more time on the floor of my viv. Leucomelas seem to be one of the more beginner friendly species that is reported to frequently climb.

Species that are referred to as more arboreal are usually the “thumbnail” variety. They are generally not recommended for a first time dart owner though. They are much smaller and typically more reclusive which makes spotting problems more difficult. If you do have some experience then the frogs I’m currently looking at for my next pair are ranitomeya imitators, R. Variabilis, and R. Vanzolinii. From my research these are generally more bold although that can change from viv to viv and frog to frog.


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## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

surfindude686 said:


> What dimensions are you thinking? Do you currently keep any darts? From what I’ve read practically any species will use all available space. My auratus definitely climb although they spend more time on the floor of my viv. Leucomelas seem to be one of the more beginner friendly species that is reported to frequently climb.
> 
> Species that are referred to as more arboreal are usually the “thumbnail” variety. They are generally not recommended for a first time dart owner though. They are much smaller and typically more reclusive which makes spotting problems more difficult. If you do have some experience then the frogs I’m currently looking at for my next pair are ranitomeya imitators, R. Variabilis, and R. Vanzolinii. From my research these are generally more bold although that can change from viv to viv and frog to frog.


No I've not had any darts yet. Im thinking 18x18x36"
I have a 36x18x36" exotera I use for crested geckos and I want one to fit next to that one. 

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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Most “Highland” morphs of every frog live up in higher elevations.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Tincs have been documented climbing 30 meters up a tree to lay eggs... so yeah. A couple of feet here or there doesn't make a difference to dendrobatidae


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## surfindude686 (Jul 15, 2020)

18x18x36 sounds like a great size for a pair of ranitomeya. Again, maybe not the best beginner frogs but I’ll let you do your own research and let others who have first hand experience chime in. I’ll note that it’s a good idea to pick out a species first and then design your viv around them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

FroggerFrog said:


> Most “Highland” morphs of every frog live up in the mountains. The name kind of sums it up.


Hmmm...they didn't climb up that mountain. I'm afraid this thought involves some unconscious anthropomorphizing. 

A species climbs more or less in relation to the niche it exploits in the wild, which is driven by territorial patterns, breeding strategies, an the like. Also, captive behavior is often an artifact of captivity, so some species that are commonly claimed to be "terrestrial" exhibit those behaviors at least in part because their viv is set up to promote that sort of movement.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Hmmm...they didn't climb up that mountain. I'm afraid this thought involves some unconscious anthropomorphizing.
> 
> A species climbs more or less in relation to the niche it exploits in the wild, which is driven by territorial patterns, breeding strategies, an the like. Also, captive behavior is often an artifact of captivity, so some species that are commonly claimed to be "terrestrial" exhibit those behaviors at least in part because their viv is set up to promote that sort of movement.


Should of said a little bit more arboreal as most morphs are found at a higher elevation. I feel like I’m sleeping when writing some of these posts.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Doesn’t _Minyobates Steyermarki _live on a tepui? I know they are extremely hard to find but they are a cool species.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

FroggerFrog said:


> _Minyobates Steyermarki _live on a tepui? I know they are extremely hard to find but they are a cool species.


A species that lives on a tepui would be less arboreal and probably climb less, not more...


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> A species that lives on a tepui would be less arboreal and probably climb less, not more...


I see. I think the question went over my head, I’m thinking of frogs at high elevations.
My epips climb a lot though as they are known to use a lot of space in a tank. Plus they are easy to take care of.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

FroggerFrog said:


> I see. I think the question went over my head, I’m thinking of frogs at high elevations.
> My epips climb a lot though as they are known to use a lot of space in a tank. Plus they are easy to take care of.


Arboreal = living in trees
Boreal = of northern regions
Perhaps this is where the confusion lies


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Arboreal = living in trees
> Boreal = of northern regions
> Perhaps this is where the confusion lies


You are right! We have a winner!

Thanks for pointing this out. I was getting really confused.


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## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

Very interested discussion. Thank you everyone for your replies!

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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

I'm stealing (and paraphrasing) something someone else on this board said here, apologies because I completely forget who it was:

We like to think of a 3' tall viv as mimicking an "arboreal" setting, but in reality 36" in the wild is tantamount to the frogs climbing up on a fallen tree or over a large stone.


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## SpaceMan (Aug 25, 2013)

riot said:


> I'm stealing (and paraphrasing) something someone else on this board said here, apologies because I completely forget who it was:
> 
> We like to think of a 3' tall viv as mimicking an "arboreal" setting, but in reality 36" in the wild is tantamount to the frogs climbing up on a fallen tree or over a large stone.


That's a really good way to think about it. I think if you asked people the question "What size glass box would do you think is acceptable, to put out in the rainforest, and confine its inhabitants?" that the answers would be far larger than "What size glass box do you think is acceptable, to make a rainforest in, bring inside, and hold those same inhabitants?".


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

riot said:


> I'm stealing (and paraphrasing) something someone else on this board said here, apologies because I completely forget who it was:
> 
> We like to think of a 3' tall viv as mimicking an "arboreal" setting, but in reality 36" in the wild is tantamount to the frogs climbing up on a fallen tree or over a large stone.


This is not only true, and useful, but is really applicable to many...uh...misconceptions about captive husbandry that are adjacent to the "little slice of nature" / "minature ecosystem" idea. A little branch that looks like a tree isn't a tree, and doesn't function as one; a little river isn't a river, and doesn't function as one; flashing lights and extra misting isn't a thunderstorm, and doesn't function as one. (Edit to add: this last example was written before I read a recent post about just this -- no reference to that thread was intended. )


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## SpaceMan (Aug 25, 2013)

Socratic Monologue said:


> flashing lights and extra misting isn't a thunderstorm, and doesn't function as one. (Edit to add: this last example was written before I read a recent post about just this -- no reference to that thread was intended. )


Haha, this is probably one of my posts. I agree that my thunderstorms are wholly for my benefit, although the frogs don't seem to mind them, and are usually very active right after them (but that probably has more to do with the dimming lights and misting that occurs, than it does anything else). 

I think in captive husbandry, we lose a lot of benefits of the natural ecosystems, but also provide benefits in the form of a constant food supply and a protection from predators. The fact is, nature is a brutal and unforgiving competition for limited resources, and I don't think it's necessarily in the best interest of our animals to mimic that environment.


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## TheRainforestExhibit (Dec 3, 2018)

Daniel_Effler said:


> I'm thinking I'm going to do a much taller enclosure. What are some good species to look at that would utilize the vertical space?
> 
> Sent from my SM-S767VL using Tapatalk


I have a 5 foot tall vivarium and I have 5 Pyllobates Terriblis (orange morph) and they are up and down all day long! They have gone to the top of a stump that is 2 inches below the top glass, and then they sit on the shoreline, right next to the water. They LOVE climbing! One thing, I have a lot of easy access areas, so keep that in mind. Also, any water feature should have plenty of egress areas, and be careful not to make any areas that they can get UNDER (water) and not be able to get out from.

The second pic is not at the top. This is about the middle of the Vivarium, just to give you an idea how they get all over the place.

Would love to see what you come up with!


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## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

TheRainforestExhibit said:


> I have a 5 foot tall vivarium and I have 5 Pyllobates Terriblis (orange morph) and they are up and down all day long! They have gone to the top of a stump that is 2 inches below the top glass, and then they sit on the shoreline, right next to the water. They LOVE climbing! One thing, I have a lot of easy access areas, so keep that in mind. Also, any water feature should have plenty of egress areas, and be careful not to make any areas that they can get UNDER (water) and not be able to get out from.
> 
> The second pic is not at the top. This is about the middle of the Vivarium, just to give you an idea how they get all over the place.
> 
> ...


I love these, definitely one of my favorites I have seen so far. 

I'm also considering swapping things around.  I could use the big enclosure for frogs and downgrade the cresty. She is alone right now and would probably be just as happy in an enclosure half the size.

Beautiful setup and I love the picture with the reflection!!!

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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I think for "arboreal" those are animals that you can set a viv with only vertical space, and not really worry about the substrate and bottom, since those animals don't like to venture to the bottom. I believe there are some snakes and lizards (chameleons?) that fall into this category.

I don't think there are any dart frogs that don't appreciate a good layer of leaf litter in their vivs.


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## Daniel_Effler (Feb 11, 2021)

Thank you everyone. I think instead of doing darts for now I'm going to start with tree frogs and get a couple of whites tree frogs. 

Thank you everyone for the input. 

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## TheRainforestExhibit (Dec 3, 2018)

Daniel_Effler said:


> I love these, definitely one of my favorites I have seen so far.
> 
> I'm also considering swapping things around.  I could use the big enclosure for frogs and downgrade the cresty. She is alone right now and would probably be just as happy in an enclosure half the size.
> 
> ...


Forgive my late response...I have had some health issues. Thank you for saying this ...it means a lot to me!!!


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