# Setting up Vivarium



## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

I'm looking to buy a couple possibly 4 powered blue dart frogs and set up my very first vivarium and wondering exactly what I need??? for the vivarium itself. I want to install a waterfall, a fogger, use spray foam on the background to setup some little steps for them maybe if it fits, and have moss and half coconut shell besides that I'm open for any suggestions on cool plants. How big should it be for 4 frogs?


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Hi there,

You might think about doing a 20gal vertical tank and starting with just two frogs (assuming you're talking about azureus). I would also say, don't rush it. Take some time to really poke around this forum before you buy anything at all. There are tons of great threads that detail the steps of a build and all the different ways to go about doing stuff. You might consider not doing a waterfall...I did on my first PDF viv and it certainly gave me a bunch of trouble. It can be done but requires a bunch more planning and tweaking. Bromeliads are popular but beyond that there are so many options that will work it really comes down to personal aesthetic preference. I would suggest going to the plants, construction, and species threads and checking out the stickies and care sheets. It'll give you some ideas. There's a looooooot of information on the forum and a wealth of knowledge and experience. Settle in and start soaking it up!

Welcome and good luck!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

jdawud said:


> Hi there,
> 
> You might think about doing a 20gal vertical tank and starting with just two frogs (assuming you're talking about azureus). I would also say, don't rush it. Take some time to really poke around this forum before you buy anything at all. There are tons of great threads that detail the steps of a build and all the different ways to go about doing stuff. You might consider not doing a waterfall...I did on my first PDF viv and it certainly gave me a bunch of trouble. It can be done but requires a bunch more planning and tweaking. Bromeliads are popular but beyond that there are so many options that will work it really comes down to personal aesthetic preference. I would suggest going to the plants, construction, and species threads and checking out the stickies and care sheets. It'll give you some ideas. There's a looooooot of information on the forum and a wealth of knowledge and experience. Settle in and start soaking it up!
> 
> Welcome and good luck!


Why would you suggest a vertical 20 gal for azureus? They are a larger, primarily terrestrial frog (though they can climb), and I would be more inclined to recommend a 20H or 20L in standard configuration for the species. I do agree that water features complicate things a lot, and for the novice, they are best excluded. The easIest way to include moving water (if you absolutely HAVE to incorporate it for aesthetics), would be to buy a self-contained unit from zoomed or similar.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

I only recommended the vert because my azureus climb my 18x18x18 all the time and the 20g vert seems to be a pretty common choice. I would certainly defer to your greater experience though.


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

So a list would be like aquarium, fogger, water pump, and what else? I trying to figure our the cost? I need something in the bottom like clay pellets and not sure.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

You may want to start here and then see if you have any more specific questions you still need answered.

-Pat


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Unfortunately, there's not going to be a 'one-size fits all' step-by-step manual or all-inclusive shopping list. 

Your best bet is digging around this forum and getting the needed information to properly set up an enclosure and care for your frogs the right way. There's plenty of information on here from experienced people.

Start slow and do your research. It will help you enjoy this hobby to the fullest.


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

You might want to go with fewer frogs, especially if this is your first tank. This species can have problems with aggression. Don't get a fogger, get a spray bottle from the dollar store to mist your tank. It works better, in my opinion. Also, don't cover the floor of the tank in moss, use leaf litter instead. A little moss growing on the rocks and wood won't hurt, but it shouldn't take up the entire floor.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

philipee32 said:


> I'm looking to buy a couple possibly 4 powered blue dart frogs and set up my very first vivarium and wondering exactly what I need??? for the vivarium itself. I want to install a waterfall, a fogger, use spray foam on the background to setup some little steps for them maybe if it fits, and have moss and half coconut shell besides that I'm open for any suggestions on cool plants. How big should it be for 4 frogs?





jdawud said:


> Hi there,
> 
> You might think about doing a 20gal vertical tank and starting with just two frogs (assuming you're talking about azureus). I would also say, don't rush it. Take some time to really poke around this forum before you buy anything at all. There are tons of great threads that detail the steps of a build and all the different ways to go about doing stuff. You might consider not doing a waterfall...I did on my first PDF viv and it certainly gave me a bunch of trouble. It can be done but requires a bunch more planning and tweaking. Bromeliads are popular but beyond that there are so many options that will work it really comes down to personal aesthetic preference. I would suggest going to the plants, construction, and species threads and checking out the stickies and care sheets. It'll give you some ideas. There's a looooooot of information on the forum and a wealth of knowledge and experience. Settle in and start soaking it up!
> 
> Welcome and good luck!


Powder blues aren't even Azureus, they are 2 different tinctorius. 
*Powder blue*









*Azureus*









Like Dane said they are terrestrial. They would be better off in a 20 long though if it were me I would get a bigger tank. I will be using a 20 long just for a pair of Azureus. A 20 long could work for 4 tincs as long as OP doesn't clutter it up with a water feature and things that take up usable space. 
Sure my Azureus climb a lot but they do spend a few hours on the floor of the viv. 
Vertical conversion tanks aren't common for tinctorius at all lol
Not trying to be rude or bash you by any means but it really looks like you need to take your own advice and start soaking up more knowledge and experience before helping people  
I used to do it myself when I first started around here and it pretty much ruined my reputation for providing misinformation.


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## jdawud (Mar 18, 2015)

Right on, no offense taken. I'm certainly still soaking it up so being corrected is expected. Most of the build threads I've read have been verticals so I guess I'm overestimating their popularity. I wasn't aware of powder blues, I thought it was one of the sometimes used common names for azureus, like the bumble bee name for leucomelas. Anyway, thanks for correcting me, I'll try to keep from giving advice beyond warning against mistakes I've made.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

as far as a 20L--by the time you put in drainage, and the substrate...there is very little "head" space...so please think about that aspect--the only reason I realized that was buying the $1 gal. sale at Petco--and now can't use it except for thumbs--which are generally not terrestrial. There is a terrific, and quite funny, thread from the forum section on mistakes that people make--can be quite instructive and worth the read...Good luck--like almost everyone here, you WILL make mistakes--but you can always remove the frogs, remove the plants, take out the "guts" of the tank...and make a new one!


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

Yes powder blue are a tinctorius species and suppose to be good starter frogs.

I don't have much access to quality leaf litter like oaks and maples I live in Phoenix Arizona (there's lots mulberry atleast that's what I think they are) I was planning on using 2 parts fir and sphagnum moss to 1 part coco fiber. I have a book that recommends this mixture but I'm not sure why it recommends this. I was also going to have smaller area of it just gravel. And yes I was planning on putting a small water feature but I bought 40 gallon tank. I'm planning on making a sketch up of my plans in the next few days with measurements.


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

I can't figure out how to reply to your post on my phone Judy what is the name of that funny mistakes thread?


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

Here is my theoretical list so far:
40 gallon 36x18x17 $110.00
Aquarium cover $49.99
Packaged No-See-Um Netting by Liberty Mountain $8.69
Beamswork LED Pent 36 0.50W Timer 6500K Freshwater Plant $49.95
Zoo Med Naturalistic Terrarium Waterfall Kit by Zoo Med $26.95
Zoo Med AquaSun Aquarium Controller Timer & Power Strip $21.75
Josh's Frogs Pinhead Banded Crickets (250 Count) by Josh's Frogs $16.99
Red Fine Gravel 1 Liter Jar - Safe for Sandboxes, Substrate $4.95
Generic Glow in the Dark DIY Decorative Gravel Stones (Set of 100,Blue) $8.86
Zoo Med Reptile Fogger Terrarium Humidifier $51.99
Zoo Med Economy Analog Dual Thermometer and Humidity Gauge $9.83 
Plastic Petri Dishes, 60x15mm, $6.99
Mosser 0180 Long Fibered Sphagnum Moss, 100-Cubic Inch $6.00
Zoo Med Reptile Bark Fir Bedding, 24 Quarts $15.99
TERAPUMP Siphon Manual Hand Liquid Transfer $5.59
landsscaping fabric 25-Year Pro Fabric, 3 by 150-Feet $25.99
Zoo Med Eco Earth Loose Coconut Fiber Substrate, 8 Quarts $5.99
Isopods culture $12
Springtails culture $12
Total: $450
Missing anything? can I get anything cheaper? cut anything? I want to have pretty much everything automated tho.


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

philipee32 said:


> Here is my theoretical list so far:
> 
> 40 gallon 36x18x17 $110.00
> 
> ...



Wait for the dollar per gallon sale at petco for your 40 gallon!


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

You don't need that much landscaping fabric. Pet stores sell pre-cut sections for $5-10. Or you could find a home depot or gardening store that sells it by the yard for pretty cheap too.

I also second waiting for a sale on the aquarium at Petco or look on craigslist. For the same price of a 40gal + lid you could get a really nice exo-terra or zoomed.


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

I'm still very new to all this, but decided to add my $0.02 anyways just in case it helps you think of something you missed. I'm currently working on an Exo Terra 18x18x24 paludarium and have already purchased the following items I'll be using for my build. I'm planning to have a DIY background/wall waterfall, pond area and of course lots of ledges and surface area for the frogs.

Here's what I have bought so far in case it helps your endeavor:

- tank (18x18x24 Exo Terra)
- 12x16 glass panel for the top since the tank came with mesh
- landscape spray foam (i got the Touch 'n Foam Landscape because the Great Stuff Pond was too long to ship & from what I read they are basically the same)
- GE I silicone (don't get the GE II... I did and ended up ripping it all out to replace with the safer GE I stuff. Lost a day in that error)
- Corrugated PVC panel for pump partition (for easy access for maintenance)
- Repti Flo 250 water pump for the water feature (and tubing)
- misc mopani wood
- misc cork bark
- aquarium sand, gravel and stones for the pond
- Eco Earth and Coco Fiber blocks for the substrate
- Another bag of more coarse bedding for the back wall to mix with the finer stuff (forgot what it was called)
- Bags of ZooMed hydro balls
- a couple fun fake, precast decor items (1 tree trunk & one croc skull)
- polyfoam substrate divider
- sm Exo Terra jungle vine (for decor)

I think that's about it. I still haven't even got the lighting, thermometers, plants, mosses, mister or other vital pieces yet. 

One thing I found out by learning from mistakes is to research and question everything beforehand. Like the silicone for instance. I asked an aquarium store clerk about it and he said anything that's 100% silicone is fine. Went to Home Depot and got the GE II silicone tube and only noticed the back that said "not safe for aquariums" AFTER I used it to glue down the PVC board and seal the corners. I read later that GE I is far safer and more preferable than the GE II, so I tore out everything, scraped all the old off and lost a day or two in doing that. Plus got a pretty nice razor blade cut. 

Anyways. These boards are invaluable for info like that, and I'm constantly deferring to them for info. Of course we're bound to make lots of mistakes on our first build, but trying to limit them is always a good thing!

Hope it helps some minuscule amount. Good luck!


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

Oh lol The tank and the microfana are the only things I bought so far but that sale is good to know about. I guess I forgot to add plants, egg crate, and a piece of pvc with a cap for syphoning.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

This thread is a little confusing...there are two people who have made lists of what they think they need to get started...I believe it would be easier for people to respond by separating the posters...Would the mods consider doing that??


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Sorry if I created any confusion, Judy S - I was simply posting what materials I have purchased recently, as I'm also currently working on my first vivarium/paludarium. I was hoping that the OP might see something they possibly forgot about as they are putting together their own shopping list. 

I personally wasn't looking for any comments regarding my list. Just trying to help the OP brainstorm, but if it's confusing, I can delete my post.


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

Yeah it helped it reminded me of pvc and cap


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I think I may have misunderstood ... I'll address the first poster's list:

Since you have never done this, I bet I'm speaking for a lot of people when I advise skip the water stuff and the fogger...save that for later when you have had a well functioning vivarium...and also that they are easier to install and problem solve in a larger vivarium. Instead of making your own substrate--just buy a well-known and used product referred to as ABG unless you are really familiar with the properties of the products you had planned to use....charcol was noticeable absent from your mix...You can buy ABG from several of the sponsors here on DB. The "landscape fabric" you seem to describe is not the right product to search for--it drains much too slowly...you need the fiberglass screening product. For the drain area...use the expanded glass product instead of gravel...it is much lighter...look on NEHerp site--I don't know who else would carry it, but other sponsors do. You need a couple of inches of that type product which substitutes for an eggcrate type bottom...Don't bother with pinheads...they are much too perishable unless you want to read Oddlot's posts about raising pinheads. You need to learn about culturing fruit flies --and practice, practice, practice even if you have to liberate them (outdoors of course)...Learn how to sterilize your culture cups, plants.... You can just use an inexpensive turkey baster to shove down into the drainage area to suck out the excess water instead of any other thing...there are a couple of other things to consider--first should be browsing the beginner forum on Dendroboard! Good luck...


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

Wait which product were you referring to that replaces the egg crate? Expanded glass? The egg crate is supposed to be a support for all the substrate with the landscaping fabric separating the two and expandable clay pellets under the egg crate.


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## philipee32 (Jul 2, 2015)

The egg crate is like a scaffolding kind of.


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## JenniBee (Jun 22, 2015)

Wood/cork bark, great stuff expanding foam, aquarium safe silicone (if you're planning to make your own background), charcoal, plants, glass top with predrilled holes, fan, mister (can use a hand misting bottle).


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Many builders on DB use landscape weed blocker fabric and I've never heard about any issues. Ive been using it for years without any issues...


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I just happened to notice the brand of sphagnum you listed, I bought some once a few years ago and ended up tossing it. I found this thread where others felt the same and have some better recommendations. I would hate to have you get off to a bad start just because of moss

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/103361-sphagnum-moss.html


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