# What is a "red/orange" amazonicus?



## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

What is a "red/orange" amazonicus? I have not heard this before. Whom did you get it from?


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I have a group of 4 that vary from red to reddish orange.


----------



## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

That is the problem and is why I asked for clarification. There are different lines of red amazonicus. There is a line of orange amazonicus too. To my knowledge, there is not a line of red/orange amazonicus.


----------



## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

David,

Did you get that line from Doug Hollister in CO? If so those look pretty similar to mine from him. If I remember right you bought the adults that produced mine!

Mike


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Bingo! Good memory.


----------



## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

dmartin72 said:


>


----------



## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Split from a classified post..... Have fun


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2006)

JWerner said:


> What is a "red/orange" amazonicus? I have not heard this before. Whom did you get it from?


They are my only all time favorite 8) , gotta have 'em  , on top of my list :!: , so jealous of everyone that does have them :evil: , better lock your doors :twisted: , and can't wait to get em :roll: , pdf I have seen in the hobby :shock: .... well, at least the red, anyways  



p.s. wanted: red amazonicus

:wink: :lol:


----------



## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Hmm, which one is the yellow tinctorius? :?: 

How would people keep lines, morphs, (and perhaps locations) if they call dart frogs species by color?


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Are they difficult to keep?

Would you recommend them to a "Newbie"?

Any other particulars about keep them?


----------



## nburns (May 3, 2005)

Thanks for sharing those pictures were great. These are some pretty frogs. According to another post I take it these frogs aren't too bold?


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

You would be correct, but more bold than my standard fants. I have seen them more frequently lately. Maybe it is because I upped the humidity (closed my vent) and eating regiment (more variety - ff's, springtails & beetles) while misting the tank a lot more (auto mister 1x/day and hand mister 2x per day). Plus, I hear a male calling daily.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

When my amazonicus were in temporary enclosures by themselves, they were rarely seen. Then I put them in my 18-18-24 exo-terra, and they were much more outgoing. After a while, they started to hide more in there, then, a week or two ago, one of the two-36w cfs burnt out, and it seems they are liking the decreased light/heat much better.
I haven't got around to measuring the temp difference between one bulb or two, but I'll let you all know when I do.
Temps with two bulbs burning was around 78F.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Love to share pics of these guys, from Pat Nabors


----------



## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

Brian, I as well didn't see my frogs much when they were in their individual quarantines. When I put my 3 amazonicus that were also aquired from Patrick Nabors in my 18x18x24 exo terra I started to see them a little more. I've heard that these frogs are very shy and rarely seen which is true for 2 of mine, 1 in particular but as for my 3rd one it's always out. It walks around the glass near the top of the viv almost like it's doing laps. I've heard one of them call so I'm hoping I have a pair. When I first put them in together 2 of them followed eachother for the first few days and now they're all spread out. I'm looking to get 2 more to add though ( I have pics posted of the bold one and of their viv and my pair of azureus)


----------



## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Wow, those are some beautiful frogs


----------



## ChrisMc (Mar 7, 2004)

Would you mind elaborating what you know about the various lines of "amazonicus." I have frogs from two sources and they are both todd kelly's line and there is a degree of difference in the red coloring and one is more orange. I think this gets difficult to classify a reddish frog since all other red darts I know lose their intensity over time.


----------



## Guest (Jan 25, 2006)

Besides the color variation what’s the deal with the black "y" on the back? I always thought that amys had a solid "Y" on there backs but the picture that MJ put up had some that don't have solid Y's. So are they still amys or are they just red vents? thanks Drew


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Any line of PDF is going to show variation in color and pattern... I think the debate with the "red/orange" amazonicus stems from a mix of the bloodline/morph name with the literal color of the frog. The bloodline and morph is called "red amazonicus" whether the frogs are red, orange, yellow, purple, or a mix of all the above. It's an identifier that seperates it from other amazonicus/vents (although there are multiple bloodlines that are probibly different populations and we should probibly include that in the morph name to clarify that these "red amazons" are different from those "red amazons" - like "red amazons (kelly)").

I like how "yellow tinc" was brought up earlier... that's a literal color description of the frog. How many morphs could qualify as that? Citronella, nikita, cobalts, yellobacks, Regina/Giant Orange (oh, wait... would those be orange tincs? But some look yellowish... eek!). Confusion ensues! (Man I hope I spelled "ensues" right... is that how you spell it?)

Just because it looks like something, doesn't mean it is (Oh, look! This one intermedius morphed out looking like a banded, so I'll call it a banded! What the hell is a red imitator anyways?! Teras are ORANGE! Or the dreaded "Name that Pumilio!" Is it a man creek? Almerante? Blue Jean? None of the above?). And just because it doesn't look like the name (red amazons being yellow to orange) doesn't mean its not.

Ah, the amazon vs. vent nomenclature debate. From what I gathered: Schulte would like to say yes, amazonicus is a species. Most other scientists disagree. In reality, ventrimaculatus is a species complex that hopefully a decade of genetic testing will bring to light what is what, and who knows if amazonicus will be resurected. For now, its not scientifically accepted, and in the hobby is used to identify the peruvian vents (formerly known as Prince... I mean... D. amazonicus) from other vents (french guyana mostly, don't know where the other vents come from). They probibly aren't the same species and are different enough for some of the serious hobbyests to take a stand and refuse to call them vents! I personally would go with Dendrobates "red amazonicus" rather than Dendrobates amazonicus "red".


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Corey...that was great! :lol: Especially the part about Prince, "the artist formerly known as." You guys should see her in person, in conversation and after a few Yenlings.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Or harps... or Bass... or Blue Moon... or that beer I had a Ramshead a couple weeks ago, or that great black and tan that Matt Mirabello makes... mmmmm beer.

What was I talking about?


----------



## dartdude (Mar 28, 2005)

Very nice pictures MJ. What kind of camera do you use??


Cheers!
Adam


----------



## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Not my picture's if you notice it's a qoute from David Dmartin, When I was moving the post I forgot the pictures so had to qoute them over.

I think David uses a cannon digital rebal (My lovely wife has a 35mm Rebal and would kill for a digi)


----------



## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

"For now, its not scientifically accepted, and in the hobby is used to identify the peruvian vents (formerly known as Prince... I mean... D. amazonicus) from other vents (french guyana mostly, don't know where the other vents come from). They probibly aren't the same species and are different enough for some of the serious hobbyests to take a stand and refuse to call them vents! "

Hmmm.... I think this is a bit off. D.ventrimaculatus (in the classic black and yellow sense) is certainly found in Peru. Now, I'm not arguing that all these frogs across the whole range are undifferentiated- but they display a broad variety of colors and patterns. Remember that D. lamasi and D. biolat were once considered parts of D. ventrimaculatus. In the case of D. "amazonicus" the description is based on color- which isn't a reliable character in Dendrobatids.

Check out:
http://www.dendrobates.org/dendrobates.htm
...shows some of the range of variation.

Cheers!

Afemoralis


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I use a digital rebel with a 100 macro, which is my favorite lens.


----------



## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

David,

I contacted Doug to see who he had gotten these from...They are directly from Todd Kelley!!

Mike


----------



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Jon, isn't that where you got yours originally?


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I have a trio of Iquitos Red Vents/Amazonicus from Marc Pepper. As mentioned already - they aren't the boldest thumb, but they are typically out and about early in the morning and at sundown. They are one of my favorites - (but then they all are). My male calls all day when he wants to, and then I'll hear nothing for a couple days.

(sorry for the first pic being fuzzy - they are hard to catch)


----------



## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Yes, one group of mine is from Todd. I guess what I'm getting at here is that there is a need for some sort of import registry, especially with frogs now arriving from Mark and possibly in the future from INIBICO. I would like to see some sort of organized code such as MPF05DVR - Mark Pepper (importer), Fall 2005Importation month/season/year), D. ventrimaculatus "Red" (Specie/morph)- written next to frogs when they are for sale. If collection data is present, that too should be included. Having this as a seperate page on Dendro would be very helpful and a resource that the extremely experience or newbie should value and use. It would take a lot of work by the frogging community to "play catch-up" but once existing lines are determined and posted with their own code, all it would take is for people that import to post the code. Thoughts?


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Afemoralis - from what I've been told talking to people, right now ventrimaculatus is more of a complex than a species. Looking at a range map of "ventrimaculatus" gives us a large range concentrated into 3 areas, french guyana, peru, and even a decent sized range in southeastern brazil in no way connected with the other populations. Geographically species, just from a small scale map, there are multiple species that look similar. If imitator and recent genetic work has taught us anything, is that looks in these frogs don't always mean much - I totally agree with you on that one. Also, fun fact to know and share, is that auratus and tincs used to be the same species too.

Going by my understanding of taxonomic rules, the original locality that the species described from is the one that keeps the name, if other localities prove to be different enough to warrant their own species. If vents were originall described in peru, same localities of "amazonicus" or proved to be genetically the same as "amys", even tho the animals we typically think of as vents are from a locality other than the original, then amazonicus would be null, vents would be their name, and the other vents would be renamed. Is this the case with amys? I'll leave that to the genetists to figure out.

Jon, I totally agree with you, especially looking at the massive amounts of revisions that are probibly to come with the frog species in the wild that we, as hobbyests, should keep up with. This is next to impossible with the way things are currently organized in the hobby (and by that I mean not). Especially with all the vents/amys in the hobby it will be interesting to see who keeps what name.


----------



## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*D. 'amazonicus'/ D. ventrimaculatus*

Corey, 

Here is a paper you should check out:

http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/handle/2246/5075

This is Caldwell et al. dealing with D. castaneoticus, D. quinquevittatus, and D. ventrimaculatus.

D. ventrimaculatus has been a mixed bag since they seperated out the other two species, and they say as much...

"The name Dendrobates ventrimaculatus Shreve, 1935, is to be used for the diverse populations recently assigned to quinquevittatus, but it is a composite species whose successful taxonomic treatment will depend on thorough studies of intrapopulational and geographic variation in all accessible characters."

With the type specimen coming from Ecuador, true D. ventrimaculatus might end up including none of the frogs labeled as such in the hobby, or 'amazonicus' for that matter. But until the matter is clarified systematically, the usage of different names for unresolved taxa just muddies the water. As stated in the above linked paper:

"We emphasize that Dendrobates ventrimaculatus sensu lato becomes the new composite species of this complex, but we urge caution in dealing with it systematically. We are aware that "ventrimaculatus" contains more than one species, some of which may be difficult to separate even when sympatric (G. Vigle and C. W. Myers, unpubl.). Attempts at taxonomic diagnosis based on literature and/or terrarium specimens of vague provenance seem likely to be fruitless at best (e.g., LUtters, 1988), or, more seriously, to create needless confusion arising from nomenclatural irresponsibility. "

I find the idea that the name 'D. amazonicus' would be upheld by 'serious hobbyests' taking a stand "and refus[ing] to call them vents!" really very frustrating as a biologist. All opinions are welcome in the process, of course, but when the only information available to the hobbiest comes from specimens of uncertain origin, and of limited genetic lines, I think the word of the systematists should be taken seriously. Dendrobatids are a rather unique group in that the researchers are still in dialog with the hobbiests. Get to the 'designer herp' world and serious researchers won't touch them with a ten foot pole. It would be a shame to loose that connection through poor and outdated terminology.

Add to the matter that the range of D. ventrimaculatus complex frogs is very poorly known (I would argue that population connections are likely for most of the areas you mentioned- look at the distribution of Allobates femoralis, or E. trivittatus for good examples of other Cis-Andean species). 

There is a lot of room in the science for significant contributions by hobbiests- Tor's developmental photographs are a great example- and in this case maybe someone can try deliberatly hybridizing different lines of Vent complex frogs- if the 'amazonicus' hybrids are infertile or if the 'amazonicus' have behavioral isolation from the 'vents' then it will add credibility to the idea that they are distinct biological taxa. Of course, we are all limited in our contributions by lack of good locality information. The registration process makes sense. Another idea is too fund the genejocks in the Summers lab to run some of the captive lines and get an idea as to just where they came from originally, and if they are still relativly clean lines.

Cheers,

Afemoralis


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Man, I don't know how often lately I've been asked about my "epipedobates" zaparo, bugs me every time. The hobby is slow to change, and I think is becoming more so with how its been growing lately and having no reference to really look at to say what is what here in our hobby. Its one of the big reasons I like Jon's idea, having a reference easily accessable (online) to the public that can easily be changed (unlike book format) to allow for recent taxonomic changes, keep the hobby more up to date, and help keep some of those bloodlines straight that might not be as closely related as we thought. We could do away with the "amazonicus" lable then, they aren't scientifically valid, but still know which lines are these formerly known as amys, which are considered harder and more advanced than the typical vents (which I think is why the amy name persists, they might have the same name now, but their care level is different). This is me trying to get the hobbyest and biologists as close to being on the same page as I think they are going to get.

Still, only animals with locality info will really be able to be kept up to date with taxonomy (vent complex wise, having a species swap genus isn't a big deal), especially the vent complex, unless we get "pure bloodline" animals geneticaly tested in the future and have them compared to known vent compex animals - but thats way in the future as it will take years for the vent complex to be figured out enough for hobby frogs to be compared against. But we can dream can't we? 

But we ARE getting locality frogs in from Peru soon due to Pepper imports and hopefully INIBICO. This is a big deal, and a chance for us to really make Jon's idea work, and since we know the localities and what not, we can keep the hobby up to date. I think a "tell it like it is" reference is what's needed to keep some of this stuff straight, and there is no reference like this forthcoming.

Jon, you want the webspace for this project, you got it. I'll help you in any way I can.


----------

