# All Male Mixed Species Viv?



## Capybara (Oct 30, 2010)

Before people start to chew me out about the problems of hybridization, please note that *I am not interested in hybrid frogs, and any resulting hybrids would be destroyed.* But here's my question:

Has anyone ever tried an all-maled mixed species tank? I'm wondering if you could keep males only of a few different species in a 90 gallon tank for example.

Or is interspecies aggression too much even between males?

My thoughts are to begin with small groups of three different species from similar regions/habitats, and to remove any frogs that are identified as female. Also, any tads that appear would be destroyed. The point of the tank would be to display color and variety. *I have NO INTENTION of breeding.*

Let me know what you think about trying a tank like this, and if you can suggest species that might be compatible. If you have rude or angry comments about how bad hybrid frogs are, please note again *I HAVE NO INTENTION OF BREEDING THEM.*


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

what species are you thinking about?


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

lol... this topic get burned out every other week. It would depend the species involved and of course a very large tank with plenty of hiding and coverage. If you do not have tons of experience with the species chosen then don't even think about it imo. Chances are if your asking then you would need to be more familiar with the species chosen. I cant tell you not to do it like so many on here would. You probably will do what you want as most people do. Just keep in mind your playing with fire by posting it on the forums. There are many respected people in this hobby that have mixed tanks. but they have many many years working with these frogs. By mixing all males will not guarantee a stress and territorial free environment.


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

man seriously..lol..EVERY week just about


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

I have seen this doen before, but only with huge tanks (over 150g). I have seen one with about 5 different Tinc. morphs that were all guranteed males in a huge custom made tank. I have also seen a tanks with Leucs, Tincs, Terribils, and Auratus mixed all together, again all males. I don't think that this type of topic is such a heated subject because if they are all male then there is no chance of getting hybrids. The chance of hybrid making its way into the market is what people are really worried about. Of course I would still not recommend mixing species unless you really have the time to observe the interaction and have lots of experience with each species. Yes the tank will look beautiful with all that color mixing together, but I think the important thing is think first of your frogs' well being. If you do plan to make a tank with all males of different species, don't be afraid to post in on this thread. I am sure many would like to see it. There are still some nice people on this board. I would just make absolutely sure that all the frogs you mix are guaranteed male. Good luck.


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## Capybara (Oct 30, 2010)

Thanks, Redhead. That is just the information I was looking for. I know I'm not in a position to do this yet, I've only just started keeping PDF's Right now I'm looking toward a future display type vivarium for my class room. Plenty of space for a 150 gallon or larger viv. 

In the meantime, I'll look for some of the frogs you suggested and keep them isolated in their own vivs until I know how to keep them competently. Hoping to show a large viv with diversity and color in a year or two.

Oh, and thanks for not lynching me.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

If you plan on doing that, it should only be done with frogs that are good in groups - the two issues with mixing are hybrids and stress, which is why most are best in m/f pairs. If you put a bunch of unsocial males together, no matter what species, you're going to get frogs bullied or stressed to death, so only choose frogs that are good in groups.


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## Chris155hp (Mar 17, 2010)

Redhead87xc said:


> I have seen this doen before, but only with huge tanks (over 150g). I have seen one with about 5 different Tinc. morphs that were all guranteed males in a huge custom made tank. I have also seen a tanks with Leucs, Tincs, Terribils, and Auratus mixed all together, again all males. I don't think that this type of topic is such a heated subject because if they are all male then there is no chance of getting hybrids. The chance of hybrid making its way into the market is what people are really worried about. Of course I would still not recommend mixing species unless you really have the time to observe the interaction and have lots of experience with each species. Yes the tank will look beautiful with all that color mixing together, but I think the important thing is think first of your frogs' well being. If you do plan to make a tank with all males of different species, don't be afraid to post in on this thread. I am sure many would like to see it. There are still some nice people on this board. I would just make absolutely sure that all the frogs you mix are guaranteed male. Good luck.


 well put. its good to see people not bashing other people on the forum


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok I'm going to go public here, and hope that everyone respects that I was trying answer a question asked of me in PM honestly, and responsibly...

So basically someone PMed me this same question and here was my unedited response... (The first comment is in reference to the comment in the original PM about the frequency of "knee jerk" reactions from people when discussing such topics)


"Ya there are a lot of those reactions unfortunately ...Lets see, well of course most here would probably still frown upon it for fear of aggression mostly. That and just the Idea that different morphs were in the same tank wouldn't sit well with them regardless if they could breed or not.

I'd say in all honesty though it is doable. It will probably depend heavily on the individual frogs themselves....they do have personalities of sorts. I've kept pairs of males of a few species before that seemed to do as well as any 2 frogs together, but you introduce a female into the mix and its a rumble from one end of the tank to the other. One thing though is I have rarely had more then 2 males together, so having 3 or more may change the dynamics in an unpredictable way. A few things to keep in mind are signs of stress or aggression can be extremely subtle to the point even the most seasoned keepers can miss them at times. I would probably go with a large viv, a minimum of 10gal per frog, 15-20 or more would probably be safer though. Lots of large plants, rocks, or drift wood pieces that will break up sight lines so they won't see each other as much would probably be good.

I would be careful to explain to anyone who sees the tank what is going on and why it is different then mixing morphs in general that way you don't give someone just entering or who might eventually enter the hobby the wrong idea. Also I'd personally keep it on the down low just to avoid any social backlash in the frog community. So personally I'd say it probably isn't a huge risk, though it may be a slightly more then usual risk. Just keep a close eye on them and be prepared to separate any frogs that aren't thriving. I would strive to try and make sure that there are areas that each could set up in as a territory and that would contain good access to foraging spots, good places to call from and good hiding places for each frog preferably while blocking their vision of the other frogs in most cases. Hope that helps...good luck, and let me know how it works out if you go ahead with it. Just don't tell anyone "Dendro Dave said it would be ok!" LOL ...I don't know you, we never had this conversation "

Frankly I'm interested in the idea also, and the experiences of others who have attempted such a thing, especially as it relates to specific species. My experience was with a male azuerus and green auratus, actually come to think of it I may have had 3 males, in the same tank in my beginner days...2 male auratus 1 male azuerus. I really don't remember noticing anymore signs of stress or aggression from that group of frogs then I have from any other pairs or groups, nothing at least beyond the level of what I've seen in groups of species considered to be good group frogs.

BTW the person that PM'd me was not the OP of this thread unless they got a second account and new name.


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## Brien (Aug 27, 2009)

How many frogs are you talking about putting in there and what frogs? ( Dont say thumb's, pums "lol" ) What style is the tank? ( tall, short, how much floor space ) If you really are going to go through with this do not go on the word of what people tell you the sex is, sometimes people accidently get it wrong and some people tell you whatever you want to hear so that you will buy from them.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Capybara said:


> Thanks, Redhead. That is just the information I was looking for. I know I'm not in a position to do this yet, I've only just started keeping PDF's Right now I'm looking toward a future display type vivarium for my class room. Plenty of space for a 150 gallon or larger viv.
> 
> In the meantime, I'll look for some of the frogs you suggested and keep them isolated in their own vivs until I know how to keep them competently. Hoping to show a large viv with diversity and color in a year or two.
> 
> Oh, and thanks for not lynching me.


Sounds like a good plan to me! Good luck!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear... 

at one point it wasn't uncommon to keep groups of larger dendrobates, particularly in male heavy ratios. However, there were a number of issues reported with the frogs (drowning one another, egg eating, wrestling until one was dead, preventing one or more frogs from feeding, etc) and the sole interpretation was that the issue was housing those species in larger groups ignoring that set-up and husbandry play significant roles in group dynamics of these frogs. This advice has since become dogma and people are often chided for attempting to house these frogs in larger groups.... 

I have been speaking of same species/morph groups at this point but the dynamics also translate over to multispecies/morph groupings. 

Ed


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

If you're intentions are to display a veriety of color why not go with a 1.2 basti tank (just make sure you don't have red beach or salt creek morphs)each with a different color and you can have a gold, orange and red one. Just a thought.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

PantMan said:


> If you're intentions are to display a veriety of color why not go with a 1.2 basti tank (just make sure you don't have red beach or salt creek morphs)each with a different color and you can have a gold, orange and red one. Just a thought.


A similar plan would work with a group of 'Yumbatos' imis from UE. Then you've got Orange/Yellow/Green/Blue covered.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

While having it all male takes out some of the worry, there are still worries about your frogs. If you're not careful and you don't make your species selection carefully you could end up with dead frogs.

If you get a really large tank I don't suspect there would be a huge problem keeping a few different morphs (as long as they're the same size) of tinctorius in the same tank. If that tank is really long _and_ really high you could probably throw a few imitators in there (it's pretty rare that my imitators come to the ground and I typically see tincs on the ground...). Point is you'd still have to worry about both interspecies and cross species interactions (especially if you do a large dendrobates with a smaller ranitomeya, if you get much interaction you may find yourself with some dead thumbnails) and niches would still be a big deal.

Some thoughts.

By the way, I do like the idea of working with an imitator tank more than an actual mixed species tank. Across the imitator spectrum there's a lot of variety and they _can_ be pretty social frogs. Make sure of the all male sexes and you could find yourself with a pretty colorful tank.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

First, kindly supply us with your level of experience with dart frogs:

1. How many years have you kept dart frogs?

2. What species have you kept?

Your preconditions on non producing frogs is definately laudable but the second and arguably the most important component of an undertaking like this is experience.

Stressors and aggression - agonistic behaviour is sometimes subtle and hard to diagnose. Additionally, if one does not have a lot of time to watch for it, it can manifest rather quickly and a medium or even large frog can go downhill quicker than you think.

Statute behaviour is often mistaken by even advanced hobbtyists as anything other than the form of aggression that it is. ...Just one example. 

some thoughts.


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## Capybara (Oct 30, 2010)

All good thoughts so far. This is my first experience with PDF's. I have had a trio of green and black Auratus since mid November. I have ample experience with other amphibians, reptiles, and fish.

I was making plans for the long term future.

I appreciate all the good input, and I take the stress/aggression issues very seriously.

Thanks everyone!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> 1. How many years have you kept dart frogs?


Devil's advocate here.. 

How do you determine when someone has worked with a species "long enough"? Does a person who has kept a single frog in a tank outweigh someone who has bred them (even if the latter has less "years experience"? What if they worked with groups? Does skill with other dendrobatids translate even though there can be significant differences? 
Why wouldn't skill obtained with other taxa translate over? 

Can someone who has less years experience with husbandry tell someone else that they don't have enough experience for trying it? Can this be extended to telling people that they don't have enough experience to work with a species? 

What keeps a person from setting an arbitrary time line for "enough experience" as there are not set benchmarks? For example, does my 20 plus years allow me to tell someone that they need 25 years of experience simply because I don't like the idea? 



Philsuma said:


> Stressors and aggression - agonistic behaviour is sometimes subtle and hard to diagnose. Additionally, if one does not have a lot of time to watch for it, it can manifest rather quickly and a medium or even large frog can go downhill quicker than you think.
> 
> Statute behaviour is often mistaken by even advanced hobbtyists as anything other than the form of aggression that it is. ...Just one example.
> 
> some thoughts.


Do you mean statue behavior? If so then there are a lot of potential causes for this response....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ed said:


> Devil's advocate here..
> 
> How do you determine when someone has worked with a species "long enough"? Does a person who has kept a single frog in a tank outweigh someone who has bred them (even if the latter has less "years experience"? What if they worked with groups? Does skill with other dendrobatids translate even though there can be significant differences?
> Why wouldn't skill obtained with other taxa translate over?
> ...


ahhhh...let's please NOT play ring around the rosie, devils advocate ad nauseum for once.  It gets us nowhere but circles.

In this case....one species kept....couple of months. Regardsless of the additional previous Herp or even amphibian experience, I would say more time and species experience with single species darts should be had before attempting this project. My own Herp experience included hundreds of different reptiles - Geckoes, Snakes, small iguanids, other amphibians and I still had many problems and issues with dart frogs when I first got into them.

and yes....Statue behaviour. I'm only aware of the negative implications. What are other causes for this?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> ahhhh...let's please NOT play ring around the rosie, devils advocate ad nauseum for once.  It gets us nowhere but circles.
> 
> In this case....one species kept....couple of months. Regardsless of the additional previous Herp or even amphibian experience, I would say more time and species experience with single species darts should be had before attempting this project. My own Herp experience included hundreds of different reptiles - Geckoes, Snakes, small iguanids, other amphibians and I still had many problems and issues with dart frogs when I first got into them.
> 
> and yes....Statue behaviour. I'm only aware of the negative implications. What are other causes for this?


It could be a simple response to a potential predator.. (the keeper for example), there are going to be differences between species and individuals.. I've worked with a number of species that would freeze when I got close to the tank or accessed the tank... as an example.. It also can depend on whether we are talking a wild caught or captive bred animals, adult or juvenile.. There is a lot of context that needs to be looked at.. Some animals become well acclimated to the keeper and attempt to climb out of the tank in a feeding response, some flee and some freeze...

I should also add that a lot of this behavior also needs to be looked at in context of how the enclosures are set up and whether or not the animals feel comfortable in them.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) While I prefer true species myself, I have always been a bit surprised by the animosity towards hybrids--after all, aren't many of our dogs, cats, swordtails, tomatoes, begonias the result of selective cross breeding? I, for one, would no problem with a hybrid kept solely as a personal pet, to never be released--I live with purebreds and mutts, and the mutts are okay. (I won't even get into the ramifications of applying this kind of thinking to people--oops, guess I just did.. 

Don't know why, but I actually have more of problem with Vriesea 'Charlotte' or Begonia 'Bozack' than a Cyclura lewisi X nubila. Mybe it is because I think we should appreciate the natural beauty of plants, whereas I do not want to condemn an animal--an organism with a personality--because of something beyond its control. But either way, I like mutt dogs and mutt people way better than mutt plants. 

2) Back to mixed species: Okay, let's hold up. In a big--I mean BIG--tank, what is wrong with employing the concept of niche? Meaning. don't keep multiple darts. Instead keep one group of darts with a trio (2:1) of small hylids and a trio (1:2) of tropical anoles. This is interesting and educational, and the animals will not aggressively compete for the same perches and other spaces. Works for me:










Einstein:


















Joe:



















What the hell, why not outside the tank:
Taz & Pinky:









Alf & Plumpy:









Taz, where Alf can't reach him:









Yeah, so I am quite guilty of mixing species (though dogs and cats seem better with herps than with bromeliads


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Devil's advocate here..
> 
> How do you determine when someone has worked with a species "long enough"? Does a person who has kept a single frog in a tank outweigh someone who has bred them (even if the latter has less "years experience"? What if they worked with groups? Does skill with other dendrobatids translate even though there can be significant differences?
> Why wouldn't skill obtained with other taxa translate over?
> ...


I think those are valid questions/points Ed... Actually I find that making a habit of thinking about questions like that, (even if I don't actually ask them out loud) keeps me from sticking my foot in my mouth all to often, or over reacting, or basically straying to far from the middle path at any given time (Which generally seems to be the best place...for me at least). Keeps me from causing or getting deeply involved in drama, being offended or offending others often times....not always, but when that stuff happens with me its generally a safe bet that Its intentional. I've chosen to go that route instead of stumbling in that direction accidently. Anyways just some thoughts


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

just one question... why have 5 species in one 150gal when you could make a rack (and it could be much nicer and easier to maintain) with five 30gal tanks each with one morph/species? you could maintain the same "theme" and even use a single long branch cut to fit "through" the tanks, tying them together and creating the effect of one single enclosure, without the headaches and near certain loss of animals. also, your attitude towards breeding isn't uncommon, but i suspect that it will change over time as you become more involved with maintaining a greater number animals.

james


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

james67 said:


> just one question... why have 5 species in one 150gal when you could make a rack (and it could be much nicer and easier to maintain) with five 30gal tanks each with one morph/species? you could maintain the same "theme" and even use a single long branch cut to fit "through" the tanks, tying them together and creating the effect of one single enclosure, without the headaches and near certain loss of animals. also, your attitude towards breeding isn't uncommon, but i suspect that it will change over time as you become more involved with maintaining a greater number animals.
> 
> james


In my experience 5 species in a 150 gallon actually take much less work and do better then 5 30 gallon single species tanks. more room for habitat niches and mate avoidance for instance. In my experience there is a lot more issues with aggression within a species than there ever is between species.

Hey Groundhog,

NIce Acanthasuara(Capra if i'm not mistaken?)


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

please explain "do better". 

i have some disagreement there, proper ratios of same species/morph frogs stand a far better chance IMO than all male mixed species. ive been at this for quite awhile, and like ed said, it used to be much more common, but at least when i had mixed tanks, there wasnt a source of information available where seasoned keepers could discuss proper care. and i can tell you that ive lost a lot less frogs keeping them in proper ratios and separated. 

big tanks also have big problems, like weight and ease of movement. there is a laundry list of reasons that multiple tanks are better, and if you dont believe me just look at, well, nearly every long term keeper with multiple varieties of darts.

james


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

Everyone knows whats going to happen. 

Jurassic Park, some males will turn to females.. and poof hybrids eating humans.


" If there is one thing the history of evolution has taught us it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, expands to new territory, and crashes through barriers, painfully, maybe even dangerously. "

Dr. Ian Malcolm..


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

james67 said:


> please explain "do better".
> 
> i have some disagreement there, proper ratios of same species/morph frogs stand a far better chance IMO than all male mixed species. ive been at this for quite awhile, and like ed said, it used to be much more common, but at least when i had mixed tanks, there wasnt a source of information available where seasoned keepers could discuss proper care. and i can tell you that ive lost a lot less frogs keeping them in proper ratios and separated.
> 
> ...


Let me clarify. In my experience animals in large properly planned multi-species tanks will do better than those in smaller single species tanks based on factors such as longetivity and breeding success. This is based on my 25 years of experience in working with frogs, geckos, lizards and chameleons. This is also based on the experience of a mulitude of keepers in Germany and Holland that have kept multispecies dart tanks for 20 years or more with minimal losses and longetivity of almost 20 years in Tincs and almost a decade in thumbs.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

DF20 said:


> Everyone knows whats going to happen.
> 
> Jurassic Park, some males will turn to females.. and poof hybrids eating humans.


I totally agree that this is the only logical outcome.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> Devil's advocate here..
> 
> How do you determine when someone has worked with a species "long enough"? Does a person who has kept a single frog in a tank outweigh someone who has bred them (even if the latter has less "years experience"? What if they worked with groups? Does skill with other dendrobatids translate even though there can be significant differences?
> Why wouldn't skill obtained with other taxa translate over?
> ...


I have been wondering this for a long time. I see over and over on this forum people who say "get experience with this first, several YEARS worth, then maybe you'll be halfway smart enough to do this".....I can't help but think of Isaac Newton's "standing on the shoulders of giants"........people who are beginners to darts in 2010, IF they DO RESEARCH, can avoid alot of mistakes that many of you had to learn by trial and error a couple decades ago. Now, note that I did say "IF they DO RESEARCH"........and I have a feeling that a teacher will do his research well before he sets up his tanks!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

unfortunately there is no substitute for hands on experience, and ONLY first hand work with these animals will yield the experience necessary to make someone truly knowledgeable and successful. you have to make the mistakes... lincolnrailers: a good example is this, your comment on water features on another thread, the downfalls of a 20gal with a water feature wont become apparent for some time. (like buried pumps burning out) or that "the frogs utilize the space" (soaking) may be a sign that the frogs are ill, and not simply enjoying the water feature you provided. 

the point is, IMO you can read and research all you want (and thats fantastic, i applaud those who take a vested interest in researching to ensure that proper care is given to their animals) but, thats not a sufficient replacement for experience and certainly not enough to justify the belief that one is exempt from the process trial and error (making mistakes). 

james


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

james67 said:


> unfortunately there is no substitute for hands on experience, and ONLY first hand work with these animals will yield the experience necessary to make someone truly knowledgeable and successful. you have to make the mistakes... lincolnrailers: a good example is this, your comment on water features on another thread, the downfalls of a 20gal with a water feature wont become apparent for some time. (like buried pumps burning out) or that "the frogs utilize the space" (soaking) may be a sign that the frogs are ill, and not simply enjoying the water feature you provided.
> 
> the point is, IMO you can read and research all you want (and thats fantastic, i applaud those who take a vested interest in researching to ensure that proper care is given to their animals) but, thats not a sufficient replacement for experience and certainly not enough to justify the belief that one is exempt from the process trial and error (making mistakes).
> 
> james


Superb......


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I personally enjoy keeping mixed tanks. I have kept and helped setup mixed tanks for about 12 years. My current setup consists of frogs that have been together for about 8 years. I have mixed to varying degrees tincs/azureus, leucs, and auratus in different assortments both sex mixed and male only setups. Please feel free to PM me any questions you have.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> I personally enjoy keeping mixed tanks. I have kept and helped setup mixed tanks for about 12 years. My current setup consists of frogs that have been together for about 8 years. I have mixed to varying degrees tincs/azureus, leucs, and auratus in different assortments both sex mixed and male only setups. Please feel free to PM me any questions you have.


Why not start whole thread on your successes ?

I'm sure a lot of folks here would like to see it.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

james67 said:


> unfortunately there is no substitute for hands on experience, and ONLY first hand work with these animals will yield the experience necessary to make someone truly knowledgeable and successful. you have to make the mistakes... lincolnrailers: a good example is this, your comment on water features on another thread, the downfalls of a 20gal with a water feature wont become apparent for some time. (like buried pumps burning out) or that "the frogs utilize the space" (soaking) may be a sign that the frogs are ill, and not simply enjoying the water feature you provided.
> 
> the point is, *IMO you can read and research all you want* (and thats fantastic, i applaud those who take a vested interest in researching to ensure that proper care is given to their animals) but,* thats not a sufficient replacement for experience and **certainly not enough to justify the belief that one is exempt from the process trial and error (making mistakes)*.
> 
> james


Bingo.. and those mistakes can potentially lead to stressed or even dead animals, which (obviously) should be avoided when possible. 

Another multicolored setup that you could try within a single species is the green and bronze/turquoise and bronze/blue and bronze auratus.. just make sure they're from the same import/locality and you can have those and let them breed too. Chazuta imitators are another one, they're pretty darn variable in pattern/color from the pics I've seen. 

As far as totally separate morphs, I do think that an 100% male tank with different colored terribs would have considerably less chances for aggression than tincs..


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Philsuma said:


> Why not start whole thread on your successes ?
> 
> I'm sure a lot of folks here would like to see it.


Well he has this older thread featuring his "success"...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37893-starting-new-vivarium.html

Even managed to produce some hybrids, though they had sls and I guess didn't make it. Not sure he can reasonably claim that there were only 2 hybrids since it is possible that other frogs were hybrids but just didn't display the signs overtly, outwardly. Isn't it possible for a hybrid to look nearly identical to one of the parent species and not actually look like a mix? ...Correct me if I'm wrong. 

Anyways I'm glad he went with a huge tank at least, though it kinda looks like it might be on the overpopulated side for my tastes especially being a mixed species viv and I still think it is irresponsible to mix that many species that inhabit the same niches, and can so readily produce hybrids. At the very least It doesn't set a very good example for others IMO. He did some things right, but I'm just not sure a "right way" exists for jamming multiple species that inhabit the same niches AND can produce hybrid into any viv.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) I think this is actually an interesting, and important, thread!

I suggest we have to be clear what we mean by "research" and "experience." To do something for a long time is not necessarily either. I, for example, have a long term ball python and a long term Rhacodactylus. I have read the books, take care of my pets, and they seem happy. How-ev-ah, this by itself does not make me any sort of expert; the experience is anecdotal. I would speak from experience if I had kept several of X species under a, b and c conditions and took notes, periodic measurements, etc. That would be my own original research. All I did was to take responsible care of a couple of pets.

Now, if I all I did was read books and professional articles about Python regius and Rhacodactylus (I spend most of my time on the electoral college), that would make an informed student. But any advice I would give would be very different: In the former case, it is an argument from experience; the present case is an argument from authority. Professional expertise is the result of learning how to synthesize the two approaches. 

I showed pictures of my community tank, and it works--for me. But if I make the statement that water dragons, if started early, can be trained not to bother smaller herps, well, I know at least a few keepers and Bert Langerwerf agree with me. But my real experience and Bert's vast expertise are not a fool-proof guarantee.

2) Tank size is an interesting trade-off. I think of it in terms of the square/cube law. A bigger tank is in fact more cumbersome and much more of a chore to set up. But once set up, it offers a far greater variety of perches, hiding spots, outposts and opportunities for the denizens to spatially segregate and find their "niche." At the same time, for some species, it can make it harder to monitor if everyone is getting enough food (that's why my boyz are all hand fed). It is also more difficult to blast light from a greater height w/o raising temperature. (Most of the HUGE set ups I see in institutions look rather dark to me, only suitable for some aroids, ferns and Ficus pumila. The big pdfs and Atelopus seem happy, though.)

3) He is actually a sub-adult A. lepidogaster (Vietnam). They all look alike as kids.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> 1) While I prefer true species myself, I have always been a bit surprised by the animosity towards hybrids--after all, aren't many of our dogs, cats, swordtails, tomatoes, begonias the result of selective cross breeding? I, for one, would no problem with a hybrid kept solely as a personal pet, to never be released


You're right. Many animals are that way. And in the case of my cats I don't mind so much. But I really don't want my frog hobby to turn that way.

A big issue here. Many people have professed about the same attitude. "If you're going to hybridize, keep it for yourself and it's all good." The issue is, it's rarely all good. The average longevity in the hobby is typically much lower than the average life of a healthy dendrobatid. And usually the people who want to keep that pet as a "personal pet" don't realize that they're soon going to get up to their ears in hybrids that they don't really want.... And then they're out in the hobby. It's happened. I can refer you to threads here on the board where this has been documented. Better just to not do it at all.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Something to consider and I apologize in advance if some of you have seen this from me in other threads. In this country we have certain distinct prejudices against mixed tanks and we tend to overmedicate our animals at the slightest sign of parasites.

This is the exact opposite of the way thing are done in Europe, and yet most longetivity records and breeding records are set by the Germans and Dutch, and this is where many of the thumb and tinc morphs in the hobby come from.

Why is there such an aversion to considering their experience on this board. Is it ignorance or arrogance? I'll let each individual decide for themselves.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Roman,

The Germans do have a lot more experience. They are an older country afterall.

That particular country is also the most notorious for smuggling, so I'm not too sure we should be so quick to emulate them.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Roman,
> 
> The Germans do have a lot more experience. They are an older country afterall.
> 
> That particular country is also the most notorious for smuggling, so I'm not too sure we should be so quick to emulate them.


Phil,

The frogs origin is irrelevant to the care and treatment discussion. Before we point fingers at the Germans we should consider the fact that some of the World's biggest smugglers of rare endangered species reside in your adopted state of Florida


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Something to consider and I apologize in advance if some of you have seen this from me in other threads. In this country we have certain distinct prejudices against mixed tanks and we tend to overmedicate our animals at the slightest sign of parasites.
> 
> This is the exact opposite of the way thing are done in Europe, and yet most longetivity records and breeding records are set by the Germans and Dutch, and this is where many of the thumb and tinc morphs in the hobby come from.
> 
> Why is there such an aversion to considering their experience on this board. Is it ignorance or arrogance? I'll let each individual decide for themselves.


I wouldn't put a bunch of male tincs of the same morph in a tank either, mixing morphs or not. Tincs will be tincs, the aggression will likely be the same.. and a lot of other frogs wouldn't be able to handle a tinc's A) dominance or B) ravenous feeding habits without becoming stressed or losing out on food. 

This is why I gave a recommendation to look into 100% male terribs of different colors, if OP really HAS to do it... but I personally won't buy any froglets from him of any kind if he does... NOT on principle but because I've been screwed before in life (as we all have), and am therefore cautious. 

Those longevity records you're talking about are not necessarily in mixed tanks (I would *guess*not), so I don't really see the parallel there. I get your point, but those who set the records may or may not mix, that's anyone's guess. Another thing is that a lot of the Europeans who are mixing are doing so in HUGE enclosures (see wimvanvelzen's thread for just one example).

As for how the Europeans feel (I know you didn't say anything about condoning hybridization, and this isn't directed towards the OP at all, or to you Roman, but* this is what can happen if you encourage enough people to mix... there are bound to be some idiots along the way* *who ruin it for the rest of us*) this is quoted from the tinc morph guide @ Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide



> Colourmorph 24.
> Name:_D. tinctorius._
> 'Amotopo'.
> Country: Doesn't exist.
> ...


This is one reason we feel differently from whatever "Dutch breeder" introduced those to the hobby. Having to guess to a 50/50 shot whether a morph is real or not isn't great for the conservation of the frogs that were created by nature. 

Another thing- you wouldn't know 100% what's male unless you shelled out the cash for all calling males, or waited for the froglets to start calling before putting them together... and not many would do either of those things. Hypothetical example- *if* you happened to have a female, and if the tank's as big as it should be to consider mixing species, you probably wouldn't know until there are froglets hopping around. Many wouldn't have the heart to kill them at that point (or worse, would just want money out of it)......... so where would they go?

Those are exactly what we're trying to prevent, but like I said at the beginning... hybridization isn't the real problem in this thread, as long as the OP is being truthful.. which at this point we don't have reason to believe otherwise, his post seemed well intentioned and at least fairly informed (which is better than most). 

I know personally that if I had tried it early on, I probably would have messed up, or more easily, missed some subtle stress and/or sexing cues, and ended up with either dead frog(s) or hybrids. Or maybe not, but I didn't try it just because it was a real possibility.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

james67 said:


> unfortunately there is no substitute for hands on experience, and ONLY first hand work with these animals will yield the experience necessary to make someone truly knowledgeable and successful. you have to make the mistakes... lincolnrailers: a good example is this, your comment on water features on another thread, the downfalls of a 20gal with a water feature wont become apparent for some time. (like buried pumps burning out) or that "the frogs utilize the space" (soaking) may be a sign that the frogs are ill, and not simply enjoying the water feature you provided.
> 
> the point is, IMO you can read and research all you want (and thats fantastic, i applaud those who take a vested interest in researching to ensure that proper care is given to their animals) but, thats not a sufficient replacement for experience and certainly not enough to justify the belief that one is exempt from the process trial and error (making mistakes).
> 
> james


I'm sure I'm not the only one with a water feature in a 20 gallon.
the pump is not buried, merely hidden. If it burns out I'll replace it. It would also take about 2 minutes, not counting the time that I would have to drive to purchase one. How long does it need to run before the huge problems will occur? it's been running for 2 years, so I need to know when to expect disaster......unless it's December 21, 2012, because that date is already marked on my calendar as the end of the world......

I'll agree that hands on experience is better than "book smarts", but the fact still remains that so much has been done with the trial and error of the common species, that people don't need to keep auratus and tincs for 5 years before they try something harder. Personally speaking, I'm not interested in the harder species yet, and I've only been keeping darts for 2 years. But that doesn't mean that someone CAN'T do it.......

It's like when people say "get experience culturing flies first for a couple months" like it's brain surgery! All I would say is "set up extra cultures" in case they get mold, and get them running so that they are producing by the time you get frogs, but I wouldn't say someone has to "practice" culturing....


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

tclipse said:


> I wouldn't put a bunch of male tincs of the same morph in a tank either, mixing morphs or not. Tincs will be tincs, the aggression will likely be the same.. and a lot of other frogs wouldn't be able to handle a tinc's A) dominance or B) ravenous feeding habits without becoming stressed or losing out on food.
> 
> This is why I gave a recommendation to look into 100% male terribs of different colors, if OP really HAS to do it... but I personally won't buy any froglets from him of any kind if he does... NOT on principle but because I've been screwed before in life (as we all have), and am therefore cautious.
> 
> ...


All valid points. And I am not referring to this scenario in particular but more towards keeping multi-species breeding groups of animals that can't hybridize since this is not something I am in favor of. In terms of the longetivity records many of them were indeed set in mixed species tanks which can be confirmed from first hand accounts of Herman Seuffer, Elke Zimmerman and others. Many of the enclosures have been large to very large but many have been suprisingly small as well. Its not about the size of the enclosure as much about desigining it properly to allow for blocking line of sight and providing with multiple habitat niches within a given enclosure. This is the kind of stuff we should be discussing and sharing information on as opposed to starting a lynch mob when ever some mention a mixed tank.* A surprising number of people on here keep mixed tanks but will not discuss or share their experiences for fear of the lynch mob mentality so prevalent on these boards. And in the long run how does discouraging people from sharing their experiences and allowing others to learn from their successes and mistakes benefit our hobby?*


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Hank, Tommy C, Mikey and Ray all have consistantly turned their nose up at "tiny nonprofitable" amphibians. 

If it wasn't 8 foot long, had a shell or big teeth....they weren't interested.

That's what's cool about the dart frog hobby. A Lot fewer criminals.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

lincolnrailers said:


> It's like when people say "get experience culturing flies first for a couple months" like it's brain surgery! All I would say is "set up extra cultures" in case they get mold, and get them running so that they are producing by the time you get frogs, but I wouldn't say someone has to "practice" culturing....


Yeah....no biggie....I donwplay EVERY single aspect of frog care when I talk to people at shows myself.

ehhhh....no biggie. Just keep em in a temp tank for however long you need to. No tank set up yet? No problem. Read up on DB as you go, as well......


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Hank, Tommy C, Mikey and Ray all have consistantly turned their nose up at "tiny nonprofitable" amphibians.
> 
> If it wasn't 8 foot long, had a shell or big teeth....they weren't interested.
> 
> That's what's cool about the dart frog hobby. A Lot fewer criminals.


True but I would bet the dollar values and the quantities of what they have smuggled greatly exceed all Germans combined in the last 20 years. A smuggler is a smuggler regardless of what species he grabs illegally. If we are going to throw stones at our neigbors we have to look at ourselves first.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Why not start whole thread on your successes ?
> 
> I'm sure a lot of folks here would like to see it.


I already have threads started on both my old setup and my new setup. You could use the search function to find them but I'll help you out with one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37893-starting-new-vivarium.html

I spend enough time answering PM's and emails for those interested and feel no need to debate a topic with someone like you who has zero experience with mixed enclosures but seem to think they have all the answers.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> .* A surprising number of people on here keep mixed tanks but will not discuss or share their experiences for fear of the lynch mob mentality so prevalent on these boards. And in the long run how does discouraging people from sharing their experiences and allowing others to learn from their successes and mistakes benefit our hobby?*


Here we go again.....with the "explosive" word descriptions. Another horribly overused word around here is " Witch Hunt ".

There is a Philly hobbyist, active on DB, attends meetings and has a VERY sucessfull viv with Colbalts and Vents.

He's also a friend of mine who I would invite over to my house anytime. I think, at first he was reluctant to reveal that, but I'm pretty sure if you ask him now, he will say that new hobbyists shouldn't be attempting it and no one should be "celebrating" that form of husbandry.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Yeah....no biggie....I donwplay EVERY single aspect of frog care when I talk to people at shows myself.
> 
> ehhhh....no biggie. Just keep em in a temp tank for however long you need to. No tank set up yet? No problem. Read up on DB as you go, as well......


I'm not saying to "downplay" it, just that it's not rocket science. When people say that they need to practice culturing fruit flies, they imply that it is difficult. Anyone with a halfway modest IQ can successfully culture flies with no problem, especially if they get the ready made culture kits from joshsfrogs or saurian, that come with instructions, and simply need water added. Now, I said "reasonable intelligence", and we can all tell when someone starts posting questions on here whether or not they have done research, by the questions they ask. And I would never encourage anyone to "impulse buy" any species of animal. I would also argue that people of "reasonable intelligence" usually don't impulse buy....they will have their tank set up before the purchase.....it just seems that some people want others to suffer through the same trial and error the trailblazers went through in the 80s and 90s, but they won't have to, if they do research.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Here we go again.....with the "explosive" word descriptions. Another horribly overused word around here is " Witch Hunt ".
> 
> There is a Philly hobbyist, active on DB, attends meetings and has a VERY sucessfull viv with Colbalts and Vents.
> 
> He's also a friend of mine who I would invite over to my house anytime. I think, at first he was reluctant to reveal that, but I'm pretty sure if you ask him now, he will say that new hobbyists shouldn't be attempting it and no one should be "celebrating" that form of husbandry.


Fair enough what term whould you prefer to use when multiple people a great percentage of whom have zero personal experience with the topic, start shouting don't do it it's wrong without bothering to weigh all the facts?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> no one should be "celebrating" that form of husbandry.


then why does he do it?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Because I have recieved animals from Germany and the dutch and have had WAY MORE problems trying to acclimate EU frogs than wc. Why do you think there is a much better representation of frogs we got from the wild then the frogs we recieve from Eu? My theory is that they don't treat anything and mix them right from the wild. I have documented more diseases from one shipment I brought in from EU then all the wc darts Ive ever worked w/.

And where do you get the longevity and breeding records are all from EU. At IAD I talked w/ a couple from EU and they couldn't believe the #'s of eggs I was getting from my pairs and I have a 14 yo pair from a 14yo wc pair of bicolor(both US) and 14 yo pair of red galacts(only because I haven't been in the hobby longer) and of course a country that was into darts 10 years or more before us has better potential to have longevity records. I know a LOT of people on the west coast have close to 15-20 y.o. darts



mantisdragon91 said:


> Something to consider and I apologize in advance if some of you have seen this from me in other threads. In this country we have certain distinct prejudices against mixed tanks and we tend to overmedicate our animals at the slightest sign of parasites.
> 
> This is the exact opposite of the way thing are done in Europe, and yet most longetivity records and breeding records are set by the Germans and Dutch, and this is where many of the thumb and tinc morphs in the hobby come from.
> 
> Why is there such an aversion to considering their experience on this board. Is it ignorance or arrogance? I'll let each individual decide for themselves.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> This is the exact opposite of the way thing are done in Europe, and yet most longetivity records and breeding records are set by the Germans and Dutch, and this is where many of the thumb and tinc morphs in the hobby come from.


The reason why all those morphs come from Germany is because of the ultra relaxed laws they had about smuggled species in the 80's and 90's and the persistent lack of respect for bio piracy laws and the sovereignty of South American nations. When they lose or fail to establish a frog in the hobby they just go out and collect more. Not that that wouldn't have happened here if we were able to, which further illustrates my point.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Phil,
> The frogs origin is irrelevant to the care and treatment discussion. Before we point fingers at the Germans we should consider the fact that some of the World's biggest smugglers of rare endangered species reside in your adopted state of Florida


You made frog origin relevant to a husbandry discussion. You put their practices on a pedestal, and there are plenty of flaws in what they do. There are many different ways to keep frogs, we should be more tolerant of some like mixing unrelated species in large enclosures while pointing out the flaws in others, like mixing extremely closely related species like vents and variabilis.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> Because I have recieved animals from Germany and the dutch and have had WAY MORE problems trying to acclimate EU frogs than wc. Why do you think there is a much better representation of frogs we got from the wild then the frogs we recieve from Eu? My theory is that they don't treat anything and mix them right from the wild. I have documented more diseases from one shipment I brought in from EU then all the wc darts Ive ever worked w/.
> 
> And where do you get the longevity and breeding records are all from EU. At IAD I talked w/ a couple from EU and they couldn't believe the #'s of eggs I was getting from my pairs and I have a 14 yo pair from a 14yo wc pair of bicolor(both US) and 14 yo pair of red galacts(only because I haven't been in the hobby longer) and of course a country that was into darts 10 years or more before us has better potential to have longevity records. I know a LOT of people on the west coast have close to 15-20 y.o. darts


And there are a lot of people in Germany with 20-25 year old tincs. If you don't believe that the Europeans have more and healthier species of darts and other terrarium animals than we do just go to the Hamburg show in Germany and see for your self. The only thing we have more of then they do is Leaftails(because Europe has stricter import restrictions than the US) and inbred color varities of beardies, leopard geckos and the more commonly kept snakes.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

frogfarm said:


> Because I have recieved animals from Germany and the dutch and have had WAY MORE problems trying to acclimate EU frogs than wc. Why do you think there is a much better representation of frogs we got from the wild then the frogs we recieve from Eu? My theory is that they don't treat anything and mix them right from the wild. I have documented more diseases from one shipment I brought in from EU then all the wc darts Ive ever worked w/.


Excellent point Aaron! As someone who has both gotten imports from the EU and WC frogs I can say without being accusesd of witchhunting that EU frogs had far more health problems than the WC ones. Even frogs that came over and I had in my possession within 15 hours (Lufthansa air cargo) of them being boxed had more problems than WC frogs.

I can't imagine where our hobby would be if the frogs that came from Europe were healthier. Look at copperhead fantastica, I believe they started coming to the US via John Uhern back in 98 or 99, you can hardly call them well established in the US same with the summersi (Yellow Fantastica) that came in around the same time mixed with the banded imitator. They just don't breed as well as the new summersi or lowland fants or benedicta that have come from Understory. I know, I have multiple pairs and breed all the above mentioned frogs.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> And there are a lot of people in Germany with 20-25 year old tincs. If you don't believe that the Europeans have more and healthier species of darts and other terrarium animals than we do just go to the Hamburg show in Germany and see for your self. The only thing we have more of then they do is Leaftails(because Europe has stricter import restrictions than the US) and inbred color varities of beardies, leopard geckos and the more commonly kept snakes.


And again, the reason why they have more species is because they've gone out and gotten them in the past when they were subject to the import restrictions of the EU.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> And again, the reason why they have more species is because they've gone out and gotten them in the past when they were subject to the import restrictions of the EU.


Chris,

I agree with you that Germans were notorious in the past for smuggling(hence the old joke about the first thing that happens when a new species is discovered a German gets a passport) 

However the laws in EU have been a lot more stringent than the laws in the US for the past few years and yet they still manage to keep many of these species in long term managed populations.

I think we are really comparing apples and oranges here. The shipping standards of a few years ago were significantly worse than the shipping standards practiced today. When you compare the quality of UE frogs versus the frogs coming from Europe is the time frame the same? If not the improvements in shipping practices alone can account for some of the diffrences.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Chris,
> 
> I agree with you that Germans were notorious in the past for smuggling(hence the old joke about the first thing that happens when a new species is discovered a German gets a passport)
> 
> However the laws in EU have been a lot more stringent than the laws in the US for the past few years and yet they still manage to keep many of these species in long term managed populations.


They may have tightened up some restrictions but what about all the newly discovered Colombian Ranitomeya at shows or all the SA Oophaga in general? A magazine comes out with several Ecuadorean morphs featured and oddly enough a bunch of adult frogs of the same morph become available here via Europe, then the magazine publisher (a German) gets busted at a show (in Holland I think) with those same morphs. Not every person in Europe is like that and yes, if we could get away with more here, I'm sure that people would try.

How well managed is their population of Highland lamasi now that they can't find any more in the wild?



mantisdragon91 said:


> I think we are really comparing apples and oranges here. The shipping standards of a few years ago were significantly worse than the shipping standards practiced today. When you compare the quality of UE frogs versus the frogs coming from Europe is the time frame the same? If not the improvements in shipping practices alone can account for some of the diffrences.


I'm comparing frogs now being boxed and driven (legally) over the border and then shipped via UPS overnight with ones that came in via Lufthansa Air Cargo to O'Hare airport (legally) in boxes with heat packs and 2" thick coolers and were picked up within about 15 hours of them being packed and sent. I think it's a fair comparison as the frogs were packed well back then and picked up very quickly after being sent. The frogs that came from Europe were loaded with junk, often undersized and thin. Most likely the Germans were just sending us the frogs they couldn't sell because they were sick or garbage, but that still points out huge holes in their husbandry.

My comments apply only to dart frogs from Germany and Holland as I have no experience with any other animals imported from those countries.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

james67 said:


> i have some disagreement there, proper ratios of same species/morph frogs stand a far better chance IMO than all male mixed species. ive been at this for quite awhile, and like ed said, it used to be much more common, but at least when i had mixed tanks, there wasnt a source of information available where seasoned keepers could discuss proper care. and i can tell you that ive lost a lot less frogs keeping them in proper ratios and separated.
> 
> big tanks also have big problems, like weight and ease of movement. there is a laundry list of reasons that multiple tanks are better, and if you dont believe me just look at, well, nearly every long term keeper with multiple varieties of darts.


I want to bring this back up for a little more discussion (not to single you out James but there is a point here that I think should be discussed some more).. 

There are a lot of variations in success in housing groups (whether it is the same type of frog or multispecies (speaking only of dendrobatids with dendrobatids here) and this should be taken as an indication that there is something going on we don't understand and it is probably husbandry related (particularly given that population densities seen in the wild (see some of the pictures Lotters et al for an example) as there is significant variations in both the density and the complexity of the set up... As an example back in the mid-1990s I was routinely breeding tinctorius in 20 gallon longs in groups of 4-5 animals. Usually 2.2 or 3.2 groups and these were simple setups with only a planting of pothos over a falsebottom with huts for reproduction... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tclipse said:


> or B) ravenous feeding habits without becoming stressed or losing out on food.


As a general note.. this can really be dealt with using seperate feeding stations and sight barriers. 

Or scatter feeding the food instead of dumping it all in one or two generalized areas so the frogs are forced to forage over a wider area... 


Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris,

I can't speak to the Highland Lamasi population. All I can speak of is stuff I've seen firsthand on trips to Europe during the late 90's and again a couple of years ago. What struck me first hand was the following:

1) Many of the frogs that I saw on my second trip were the same animals that I saw when I was there 10 years ago( A number of them had very distinctive marking so I am pretty sure I was looking at the same animals)

2) The attention to detail I saw in the setups when it comes to create feeding stations, line of sight and microniches within the tank.

3) The number of tanks housing multi species groups and having offspring from those groups coexisting with the parents.

4) The sheer variety of the species and morphs(not just darts other animals as well) that were on display at the hobbyist homes I visited.

5) The sheer variety and visible health of the animals available at the Hamburg Show.

I can't provide the granular level of detail on some of the other stuff you asked about for the simple reason that I didn't go into some of those details on my trips. At the end of the day I am simply relaying my personal observations.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I was there when Luftansa landed and saw the frogs w/in 40 minutes of the plane touching down and opened the boxes and everything was hoping around. They were basically put in a room for a couple hours and then opened. They had no shipping problems. 

And they are still smuggling a lot to EU. 



mantisdragon91 said:


> Chris,
> 
> I agree with you that Germans were notorious in the past for smuggling(hence the old joke about the first thing that happens when a new species is discovered a German gets a passport)
> 
> ...


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> I was there when Luftansa landed and saw the frogs w/in 40 minutes of the plane touching down and opened the boxes and everything was hoping around. They were basically put in a room for a couple hours and then opened. They had no shipping problems.
> 
> And they are still smuggling a lot to EU.


And so are we. As I have mentioned before to Phil our hobby as a whole needs to look in the mirror(not just darts) befoer we go accusing other nations. I particularly find it interesting how some of the recent shipment of Gold Mantellas(appendix1 I believe) and numerous Phelsumas(Boehmi last year to site one example) are still being made available WC.

In regards to the shipping issues we really need to investigate who these EU frogs were originating from? There are good hobbyists and bad hobbyists in every nation. I can name any number of people in the US I'd never want animals shipped from internationally as well


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

But ours are coming from Europe as cb and are wc or recently bred from smuggled frogs.



mantisdragon91 said:


> And so are we. As I have mentioned before to Phil our hobby as a whole needs to look in the mirror(not just darts) befoer we go accusing other nations. I particularly find it interesting how some of the recent shipment of Gold Mantellas(appendix1 I believe) and numerous Phelsumas(Boehmi last year to site one example) are still being made available WC.
> 
> In regards to the shipping issues we really need to investigate who these EU frogs were originating from? There are good hobbyists and bad hobbyists in every nation. I can name any number of people in the US I'd never want animals shipped from internationally as well


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> True but I would bet the dollar values and the quantities of what they have smuggled greatly exceed all Germans combined in the last 20 years. A smuggler is a smuggler regardless of what species he grabs illegally. If we are going to throw stones at our neigbors we have to look at ourselves first.


Don't spin this to include reptiles......stay with dart frogs exclusively here for this thread / discussion.

Germans are causing MUCH more problems with smuggled dart frogs....last 10 years....last five years.....and currently.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I think what you may be seeing is some of Understories frogs as I believe Mark does some big shipments for that show or has in the past. Unless of course your talking about the recent wc's that are usually featured there. And where do you get that Eu has stricter import restrictions(other than England as they don't allow much in or out). Have you ever been to White Plains or NAAC or Iad or Frogday?



mantisdragon91 said:


> And there are a lot of people in Germany with 20-25 year old tincs. If you don't believe that the Europeans have more and healthier species of darts and other terrarium animals than we do just go to the Hamburg show in Germany and see for your self. The only thing we have more of then they do is Leaftails(because Europe has stricter import restrictions than the US) and inbred color varities of beardies, leopard geckos and the more commonly kept snakes.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Fair enough what term whould you prefer to use when multiple people a great percentage of whom have zero personal experience with the topic, start shouting don't do it it's wrong without bothering to weigh all the facts?


Most of the shouting I see is in your posts.....caps....bold letters.....imflammatory verbaige. 

I have a ton of experience driving high performance vehicles and even sports cars. I have heard that you (one) can drive a high performance valuable motor without _any_ oil in it for a long period of time.

Should we start a club and a thread about engines without oil? Tell new people to give it a try ?

I haven't done it (no oil) but I'm pretty sure I can accurately debate you on the topic and cite my driving experience as relevant.

This forum's membership can define for itself who is credible and what arguments, "facts" and cites they deem valuable.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Most of the shouting I see is in your posts.....caps....bold letters.....imflammatory verbaige.
> 
> I have a ton of experience driving high performance vehicles and even sports cars. I have heard that you (one) can drive a high performance valuable motor without _any_ oil in it for a long period of time.
> 
> ...


Phil,

I have to admit you got me. I no longer have a clue as to what you are talking about. The suspicion that I have is that neither do you.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

lincolnrailers said:


> then why does he do it?


Who is "He" ?

My post is clear.....my friend does _not_ celebrate it. He never posts about it.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Phil,
> 
> I have to admit you got me. I no longer have a clue as to what you are talking about. The suspicion that I have is that neither do you.


Yeah...I figured that....you and me are just gonna be 'nother Roman vs. Bad man Rich Frye battles....we are all wrong and you are dead-on money...100%


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Yeah...I figured that....you and me are just gonna be 'nother Roman vs. Bad man Rich Frye battles....we are all wrong and you are dead-on money...100%


Not at all Phil,

I don't mind having a discussion with you. Unlike the gentleman you mentioned above you aren't insulting, try to present rational arguments and will actually provide documentation to substantiate your statements.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Chris,
> 1) Many of the frogs that I saw on my second trip were the same animals that I saw when I was there 10 years ago( A number of them had very distinctive marking so I am pretty sure I was looking at the same animals)


I have fantastica that came from John Uhern back in 1999 and some from Jared Wolfe in 2000 (which is quite an accomplishment if you know who Jared Wolfe was). There are a good number of people with old frogs here in the US. The problem with being new to dart frogs is that you really only see those who are on the boards and that population is skewed to newer hobbyists.



mantisdragon91 said:


> 2) The attention to detail I saw in the setups when it comes to create feeding stations, line of sight and microniches within the tank.


If you were to visit the experienced froggers mentioned above you would see these types of enclosures. I believe you were at Scott's this past weekend. There are a good number of other froggers out there with similar setups.



mantisdragon91 said:


> 3) The number of tanks housing multi species groups and having offspring from those groups coexisting with the parents.


Again, there are experienced people here who do this. Just because it isn't done here frequently doesn't mean that it couldn't be acheived, nor is the fact that it is being done a measure of success that puts their hobby ahead of ours. 

It all depends upon the goals of the hobby. When my goal was just to have fun and take from the hobby, I used to have a mixed 75 gallon tank of amazonicus and hahneli and both species bred in the enclosure and deposited tads which morphed out and would join the adult group. I've never mixed animals that weren't sympatric; I just don't get it. That doesn't mean that others can'tNow that my goal is establishing and maintaining the frogs in the genus Ranitomeya in captivity, mixing tanks are unenjoyable and waste my time and energy. People should have the right to make their own goals and priorities.



mantisdragon91 said:


> 4) The sheer variety of the species and morphs(not just darts other animals as well) that were on display at the hobbyist homes I visited.


I was specifically talking about their husbandry of dart frogs.



mantisdragon91 said:


> 5) The sheer variety and visible health of the animals available at the Hamburg Show.


This only goes to illustrate that they obviously knew better than to send us sick animals if they could keep them separate from all the healthy ones at the show.



mantisdragon91 said:


> And so are we. As I have mentioned before to Phil our hobby as a whole needs to look in the mirror(not just darts) befoer we go accusing other nations. I particularly find it interesting how some of the recent shipment of Gold Mantellas(appendix1 I believe) and numerous Phelsumas(Boehmi last year to site one example) are still being made available WC.


There is a difference between unethical but legal and illegal. It may have been unethical to have taken those animals out of the wild and ship them, but it wasn't illegal -to my knowledge those animals came in with proper paperwork from Madagascar.



mantisdragon91 said:


> In regards to the shipping issues we really need to investigate who these EU frogs were originating from? There are good hobbyists and bad hobbyists in every nation. I can name any number of people in the US I'd never want animals shipped from internationally as well


I'm not going to name names publicly, but I know I got frogs from some of the biggest names in the hobby over there at the time. However, the hobby is only as strong as it's weakest participant...


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> But ours are coming from Europe as cb and are wc or recently bred from smuggled frogs.


Aaron,

I'll apologize in advance if I misunderstood the intent of this post, but let me give you my take on it. There are still people in this country importing and exporting WC frogs with some what shady paperwork, as can be evidenced by some of the Trivitattus and Tinc morphs currently available WC. In addition from speaking with Exporters in Florida we still ship a ton of Panama stuff to Europe and many of those Pumilio are labeled as farm raised or even CB in some extreme instances. Bottom line is there are bad practices on both continents and bad keepers as well. Not really fair to judge an entire continent by the actions of a small unscrupulous minority.

In terms of the EU regulations I am not as familiar with them as they apply to darts, but I know they have clamped down on geckos and uromastyx hard and the Europeans continue to be amazed and frustrated at the prices that WC Uromastyx and Uroplatus are offered for in this country.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> I have fantastica that came from John Uhern back in 1999 and some from Jared Wolfe in 2000 (which is quite an accomplishment if you know who Jared Wolfe was). There are a good number of people with old frogs here in the US. The problem with being new to dart frogs is that you really only see those who are on the boards and that population is skewed to newer hobbyists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Chris,

I actually think we are pretty much in agreament on most of these points. The one glaring exception is the legality of the recent malagasy imports. The Boehmi that came in where clearly mislabeled(as Grandis) the only question is was it done intentionally or was it a simple error on the part of the importer and his source


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

What's shady about the paperwork?

Speaking of pumilio, how about all those rubbed blue jeans that came from Germany a couple months ago? Costa Rica doesn't allow the exportation of it's wildlife - Illegal. Panama is giving paperwork out for those frogs, even though there is little evidence of actual farming - Unethical. While the Panamanian thing may actually be worse for wild frogs, it doesn't change the legality.

Not saying we're better or even different, but you can't castigate the US hobby for the same things you give Germany a pass for, just because you like that they mix and the vocal part of the hobby here doesn't.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I know it's hard to keep focused Roman but let's talk about dart frogs. What big name exporters do is what they'll always do.

I'm talking hobbyists and business' dealing w/ dart frogs. Yes, there are people importing these frogs from Eu knowing full well what they're doing, but the smuggling of wc animals is done to EU then legitimized and brought here. Those Surinam tincs and trivis are from people who brought them in w/ permits as wc animals as far as I know. The morphs I'm talking about were never legally exported from the country of origin. They are (some) newly described and somehow are in the hobby before the legal shipments can make their way in.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

SmackoftheGods said:


> You're right. Many animals are that way. And in the case of my cats I don't mind so much. But I really don't want my frog hobby to turn that way.
> 
> A big issue here. Many people have professed about the same attitude. "If you're going to hybridize, keep it for yourself and it's all good." The issue is, it's rarely all good. The average longevity in the hobby is typically much lower than the average life of a healthy dendrobatid. And usually the people who want to keep that pet as a "personal pet" don't realize that they're soon going to get up to their ears in hybrids that they don't really want.... And then they're out in the hobby. It's happened. I can refer you to threads here on the board where this has been documented. Better just to not do it at all.


Smack: You make a good point, I hear it. Let me clarify: My real gripe is with the human urge to constantly manipulate, resulting in goldfish with upward facing eyes, roosters w 25' tails, pugs that cannot breathe, countless albino snakes, etc. As for the countless plant hybrids, many are very pretty and some are quite vigorous (Begonia 'Erythrophylla' is a great houseplant). But I do feel there are enough natural morphs--species--to appreciate on their terms. 

1) As for dogs, I, for one, would like to see puggles eventually replace pugs.

2) As for plants or frogs, I must ask: Is a possible goal here to have viable populations for potential reintroduction? Nice idea, but many have pointed out that plants in cultivation are also subject to selection--meaning, they are now adapted to live _with us_, and not in the forest. Could the same principle apply to F3 or F4 or F5 animals? I know, for example, that Agama International lizards, bred outdoors, are fairly wary--bit would they be wary enough if released by a billabong? Could it be possible that captive born frogs would be less fit for a wild existence? I am not suggesting that it is, just posing the question.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Not at all Phil,
> 
> ..... try to present rational arguments and will actually provide documentation to substantiate your statements.


I wil endevvor to try to beter enhanse my ..stuf. 

Try to stick to dart frogs as well. I know your Herp experience is primarily with other animals.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Chris,
> 
> I actually think we are pretty much in agreament on most of these points. The one glaring exception is the legality of the recent malagasy imports. The Boehmi that came in where clearly mislabeled(as Grandis) the only question is was it done intentionally or was it a simple error on the part of the importer and his source


Okay good and to the boehmi, that's why I try to keep the discussion to dart frogs. Is Madagascar not equipped to look at shipments before they leave (no sarcasm, real question)?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> I know it's hard to keep focused Roman but let's talk about dart frogs. What big name exporters do is what they'll always do.
> 
> I'm talking hobbyists and business' dealing w/ dart frogs. Yes, there are people importing these frogs from Eu knowing full well what they're doing, but the smuggling of wc animals is done to EU then legitimized and brought here. Those Surinam tincs and trivis are from people who brought them in w/ permits as wc animals as far as I know. The morphs I'm talking about were never legally exported from the country of origin. They are (some) newly described and somehow are in the hobby before the legal shipments can make their way in.


Some of those frogs are undeniably gray area at best and completely illegal at worse. The problem I have is that we use the German hobby market to effectively launder our frogs(galacs, terribs, bicolors, etc) all the while proclaiming about how much better we are then they are. The only diffrence between some of the hobbyists there and some of the hobbyists here is their willingness to get their hands dirty. Keep in mind I still believe that this applies to only a small minority on both sides of the Atlantic.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> I wil endevvor to try to beter enhanse my ..stuf.
> 
> Try to stick to dart frogs as well. I know your Herp experience is primarily with other animals.


Phil,

You misunderstand me. What I said was meant as a compliment. Unlike the gentleman you previously mentioned you don't throw around childish insults, try to misdirect and refuse to provide documentation. Thats a good thing in my book


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> What's shady about the paperwork?
> 
> Speaking of pumilio, how about all those rubbed blue jeans that came from Germany a couple months ago? Costa Rica doesn't allow the exportation of it's wildlife - Illegal. Panama is giving paperwork out for those frogs, even though there is little evidence of actual farming - Unethical. While the Panamanian thing may actually be worse for wild frogs, it doesn't change the legality.
> 
> Not saying we're better or even different, but you can't castigate the US hobby for the same things you give Germany a pass for, just because you like that they mix and the vocal part of the hobby here doesn't.


I don't believe we are trying to have a contest as to who is guiltier. I am merely trying to show the same thing happens on both sides of the Atlantic. I'm familiar with the German hobby market to know all is not rosy. I just happen to be really impressed with what I have seen first hand of people's collections. As for the recent Surinam imports there is quite a bit of debate as to where the actual collection locality is for some of the stuff coming out is and it may not be all confined to Surinam.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Phil,
> 
> You misunderstand me. What I said was meant as a compliment. Unlike the gentleman you previously mentioned you don't throw around childish insults, try to misdirect and refuse to provide documentation. Thats a good thing in my book


ok.

The thread is spinning away from the OP topic....so to try and steer it back....

Roman,

1. The OP has "some" herp experience.

2. He has almost no Dart frog experience.

Please type up a short paragraph giving him your best advice for the mixed species project he wants to undertake.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

As a follow up to my previous post I'm convinced that the Germans do not send us their A or even their B grade stuff. This is reserved for the home market or in some case Japan. It really is hard to judge the quality of the stuff they are producing based on the substandard stuff they send us. If you have time go to Hamburg for the Terraristika show the diffrence really is night and day.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I think a lot of people wouldn't be buying them if they were never smuggled to Eu then offered here as cb. Frogs generally don't come here strait from the wild just after they are described. There may be debate as to where they are coming from w/in a couple miles but that is not the same as frogs that never came in w/ paperwork in the first place.



mantisdragon91 said:


> I don't believe we are trying to have a contest as to who is guiltier. I am merely trying to show the same thing happens on both sides of the Atlantic. I'm familiar with the German hobby market to know all is not rosy. I just happen to be really impressed with what I have seen first hand of people's collections. As for the recent Surinam imports there is quite a bit of debate as to where the actual collection locality is for some of the stuff coming out is and it may not be all confined to Surinam.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> ok.
> 
> The thread is spinning away from the OP topic....so to try and steer it back....
> 
> ...


Provide the biggest tank you can afford, multiple feeding stations, and dense foliage to block line of sight. Monitor on a daily basis and remove any animals that are losing weight or aren't feeding aggressively(this assumes of course that he is working exclusively with Male Tincs. That advise would differ for other shier species which are harder to monitor on a daily basis)


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> I think a lot of people wouldn't be buying them if they were never smuggled to Eu then offered here as cb. Frogs generally don't come here strait from the wild just after they are described. There may be debate as to where they are coming from w/in a couple miles but that is not the same as frogs that never came in w/ paperwork in the first place.


Aaron,

I would love to believe so as well. Unfortunately history tells us a diffrent story. There is always a segment of the hobby market that will buy animals that they know are illegal simply for the pleasure/staus/ego boost of having the animals. In fact there have been a number of paper published on the rarity loop( In essense the rarer an animal becomes the more pressure there is from collectors to obtain the last few in the wild for their personal collections)


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> Okay good and to the boehmi, that's why I try to keep the discussion to dart frogs. Is Madagascar not equipped to look at shipments before they leave (no sarcasm, real question)?


Chris,

No sarcasm is intended towards you merely the importer in question. Madagscar has a population of whom 70% is under the age of 20 and is in the midst of yet another election dispute which may lead to civil war. 

Unfortunately there are quite a number of countries throughout the world in similar situations and any number of unscrupulous individuals on both sides of the Atlantic are taking advantage of this. The real question should be is why is it getting past Fish and Wildlife here and whatever the equivalent body is in the EU?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Crap, not this again. And I will give as an example Panama canal zone Blue auratus. We knew they were dissappearing and their habitat was going away and they weren't imported to extinction. There may be people who will always buy but if no one was supplying from Eu no americans would be up off their lazy asses and risking getting caught trying to smuggle frogs into the US. They only come here W/ PAPERS as cb from EU, generally.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I would love to believe so as well. Unfortunately history tells us a diffrent story. There is always a segment of the hobby market that will buy animals that they know are illegal simply for the pleasure/staus/ego boost of having the animals. In fact there have been a number of paper published on the rarity loop( In essense the rarer an animal becomes the more pressure there is from collectors to obtain the last few in the wild for their personal collections)


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> Crap, not this again. And I will give as an example Panama canal zone Blue auratus. We knew they were dissappearing and their habitat was going away and they weren't imported to extinction. There may be people who will always buy but if no one was supplying from Eu no americans would be up off their lazy asses and risking getting caught trying to smuggle frogs into the US. They only come here W/ PAPERS as cb from EU, generally.


Aaron,

To quote Phil's previous example there are plenty of Americans that smuggle(read the Lizard King) they just choose to go after more expensive prey then darts. Now if the Europeans didn't smuggle and the price of darts was in the category of say a Plough Share Tortoise or a Fiji Isle Iguana because of pent up demand, would you care to bet how fast the boys in Florida would be on the first plane to Ecuador or Peru?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Who is "He" ?
> 
> My post is clear.....my friend does _not_ celebrate it. He never posts about it.


He keeps the tank, the frogs do well, and he enjoys it. But I think it's crazy that he won't talk about it, because a small but very vocal group here wants to crucify people who ask about mixing species, and continually ignore people like Ed (who I would say has the highest IQ on the board), who says it can be done.

Totally off topic from the OP, but since a few of you seem to know about imports, why are there so many dart frogs for sale on kingsnake labeled "strawberry poison dart frog", that don't say which specific locale of pumilio it is? Are these imports? And how are they kept from entering the hobby and muddying the waters?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

lincolnrailers said:


> He keeps the tank, the frogs do well, and he enjoys it. But I think it's crazy that he won't talk about it, because a small but very vocal group here wants to crucify people who ask about mixing species, and continually ignore people like Ed (who I would say has the highest IQ on the board), who says it can be done.
> 
> Totally off topic from the OP, but since a few of you seem to know about imports, why are there so many dart frogs for sale on kingsnake labeled "strawberry poison dart frog", that don't say which specific locale of pumilio it is? Are these imports? And how are they kept from entering the hobby and muddying the waters?


These are all coming in from Strictly Reptiles they are all imports with no locality data and to my knowledge there is no way to keep them from entering the hobby and muddying the waters.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

lincolnrailers said:


> He keeps the tank, the frogs do well, and he enjoys it. But I think it's crazy that he won't talk about it, because a small but very vocal group here wants to crucify people who ask about mixing species, and continually ignore people like Ed (who I would say has the highest IQ on the board), who says it can be done.
> 
> Totally off topic from the OP, but since a few of you seem to know about imports, why are there so many dart frogs for sale on kingsnake labeled "strawberry poison dart frog", that don't say which specific locale of pumilio it is? Are these imports? And how are they kept from entering the hobby and muddying the waters?


 
I don't think the IQ thing is really appliciable.... but thanks for the compliment. 

While I do say it can be done, there are considerations that need to be taken. 

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> I don't think the IQ thing is really appliciable.... but thanks for the compliment.
> 
> Ed


maybe not, but you always have research to back up your claims, in addition to all of your experience. And you didn't disagree that your IQ is the highest.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

lincolnrailers said:


> maybe not, but you always have research to back up your claims, in addition to all of your experience. And you didn't disagree that your IQ is the highest.....


 
Lets just leave it as I have significant doubts.. one's eloquence can always hide thier IQ if they bother to sit and think about a response.. 

And anyone who chooses to research can always sound smarter.. 

Ed


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

I don't know about an all male viv, but I did set up a 60gal. hex some years ago with a trio of Azureus, and 4 yellow Vents. Provided plenty of broms and film canisters up top and philos below. I never saw any interaction between the 2 and both bred quite successfully. I think the only way to accomplish this is to take one ground dwelling and one aboreal. Thats why I chose azures and vents, both are pretty tough and I think it one of just a few combos with frogs that could work.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Groundhog said:


> Smack: You make a good point, I hear it. Let me clarify: My real gripe is with the human urge to constantly manipulate, resulting in goldfish with upward facing eyes, roosters w 25' tails, pugs that cannot breathe, countless albino snakes, etc. As for the countless plant hybrids, many are very pretty and some are quite vigorous (Begonia 'Erythrophylla' is a great houseplant). But I do feel there are enough natural morphs--species--to appreciate on their terms.
> 
> 1) As for dogs, I, for one, would like to see puggles eventually replace pugs.
> 
> 2) As for plants or frogs, I must ask: Is a possible goal here to have viable populations for potential reintroduction? Nice idea, but many have pointed out that plants in cultivation are also subject to selection--meaning, they are now adapted to live _with us_, and not in the forest. Could the same principle apply to F3 or F4 or F5 animals? I know, for example, that Agama International lizards, bred outdoors, are fairly wary--bit would they be wary enough if released by a billabong? Could it be possible that captive born frogs would be less fit for a wild existence? I am not suggesting that it is, just posing the question.


It sounds like you're referring to line-breeding. Specifically line-breeding for a specific trait. For all intents and purposes (from the standpoint of conservation, for what seems to be a majority of the hobby), hybridization is bad. But line-breeding is equally bad (perhaps even _more_ bad because there doesn't seem to be the same kind of vocal outcry when someone says they're line-breeding for a specific trait. This is equally detrimental to the hobby if we consider our goal to be an effort to most accurately represent what would be found in the wild, but with the general acceptance of line-breeding (especially by people new to the hobby) the damage that can be done to the hobby could be worse than the hybrid scare). You'll hear many advanced hobbyists complain about line-breeding. The most vocal one I know is Phil, but he's too busy getting into a pissing match with Roman that it seems he overlooked your post  I (and many like me) are on your side when it comes to line-breeding. Personally, I think chocolate leucs should be bred into virtual non-existance.

You're probably right about the plants thing, but my knowledge on plants is sparce so I won't comment on it.

As for your question #2.... Many people have the delusion that they're in the hobby as part of a reintroduction project. In the hobby's current state this is extremely unrealistic. Especially where we're working with so many frogs that aren't locale specific. The holotype (nominant, standard) imitator may look like the caicharinha valley imitator, but is it _really_? And would we _really_ want to introduce the holotype imitator into the c. valley locale? This type of thinking could be rather destructive. I recall Ed telling me in a number of threads in the past, in their present state, there is no (I assume this to mean _virtually_ no) frog in the hobby that currently meets the standards to suit a reintroduction project. When I asked him what we could do to make our frogs suitable for a reintroduction project I seem to recall him telling me that we need to trace the lineages of our frogs. Through projects like the ASN we can have locale data and geneology on our frogs to (hopefully) ensure that our frogs most accurately emulate those found in the wild. (I really hope Ed catches this post so he can correct me as I'm sure that if I got _anything_ right in my reaccount of his words I surely butchered them).

Personally, reintroduction of my frogs or not, I don't want my frogs ending up like the leopard gecko hobby. Even if no frog that I breed can be reintroduced in the wild I still have every intention of doing what I can to make sure my frogs most accurately represent those found in the wild.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually he could be referring to inbreeding as well as line breeding.. in which case I suggest people review http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands%202007.pdf 

There are a number of reasons none of the frogs currently being maintained in the hobby are suitable for release/repatriation/reintroduction programs (and I include people who rear locally collected frogs) for some or all of the following reasons (in no particular order)

1) genetic adaptation to captivity changing allele frequency and potentially behaviors (for example given the large number of people who artificially rear eggs and tadpoles, parental care behaviors may be modified or eventually lost) reducing fitness (as a good reference on it see http://www.nativefishsociety.org/co...ries/genetic_introgression/GeneticEffects.pdf )
2) phenotypic plasticity in adapting to captivity renders the animals unfit for release (see for example what occured with some pupfish in captivity) 
3) exposure to novel pathogens resulting in the frogs being potential carriers due housing species from disparate locations within the same room/building. 
4) failure to manage the populations allowing loss of alleles and adaptation to captivity (See number 1 and the reference below).. 

If some wish to purchase access to an article this one may be of interest Selection in Captivity during Supportive Breeding May Reduce Fitness in the Wild - Ford - 2002 - Conservation Biology - Wiley Online Library 

Does that help clear up the issue?


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## DizzyD (Sep 19, 2006)

Wow, 7 outta 10 of you are off topic. Kinda don't miss the bickering (I don't frequent the site as much as I used to). Opinions are like ______ and everyone has one. So here's my two cents and short lived terrible experience:

There was a time when I was in college and I first started trying to keep dart frogs, didn't know this website existed, so I consulted the guy at the privately owned pet store in PA for all my dart frog needs. They kept all types of reptiles, amphibians, a few different breeding pairs of darts (kept separately) and a large juvi tank, and were quite well known for their dogs, as well as the conditions all animals were kept in. All the juvies (reguardless of what type of frog/morph) were in the same tank at said store as well.

Well, I purchased a tinc, then a little later on my gf got me an auratus, then my brother got me a different tinc. Dude at pet store told them all that I could keep them happily in the same 29 gallon tank. I even called to check, dude confirmed. 

All frogs died w/in less than one year due to what I now know was serious stress/competition. My viv had a monster pothos in it and tons of hides. Temps and humidity were perfect and the little guys were fed properly w/ alternating vitamins etc. 

I have no other experience on the topic b/c once I learned what I know now I never wanted to take the risk again. Best luck in your endeavors and you're going to do what you're going to do. Just try to make an educated decision.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) Jake & Ed: Thank you for the patient, informative replies. I suspected as much, and I can assure this applies to reptiles and plants as well. Many horticultural socieities have as part of their mission statement, a suggestion to propagate rare or endangered species. Of course, there is no genetic variation when we're passing around cuttings and offsets... 

2) Back to mixing species: Should one choose to mix species in a BIG enclosure, would it not be better to mix a small group of PDFs with other animals, rather than three groups of PDFs? (I'd especially like to hear Ed on this one!)

I used the example of PDFS with 2.1 Hylids (e.g. _Dendrosophus marmorata_) and 1.2 _Anolis _sp. (e.g., _chlorocyanus_ or _roquet)_ Wouldn't this be a better alternative for stratifying the space, and avoiding resource competition? (Man, I think this combo would look great with the right bromeliads and aroids


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> 2) Back to mixing species: Should one choose to mix species in a BIG enclosure, would it not be better to mix a small group of PDFs with other animals, rather than three groups of PDFs? (I'd especially like to hear Ed on this one!)


One of the items that quickly get thrown out in these discussion is that the enclosure has to be big to work..(with some random sized tank as an example) this is an incorrect asssumption as a poorly set up large enclosure is no better than a poorly set up small enclosure. The ability of a multispecies enclosure to succeed or fail is actually based on whether or not it is properly set up. A very poorly set-up large tank could easily have less space than a properly set up much smaller enclosure. Instead people should concentrate on proper niche establishment as the criteria as opposed to size of the enclosure (there are limits on this).. 

While I have not tried housing thumbnails with non-thumbnails, I can envision scenarios under which it would be successful as long as the proper niches were provided. My personal preference is to house non-dendrobatids with dendrobatids if I am shooting for a multispecies enclosure as the difference in shape and behavior renders any territorial aggression moot (as the responses etc are not triggered). (And I am going to note, I have worked with multi-tinctorious type groups together). 

When using very disparate species like hylids and dendrobatids, you do not need to really look at stratifying the areas... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Ed said:


> The ability of a multispecies enclosure to succeed or fail is actually based on whether or not it is properly set up. A very poorly set-up large tank could easily have less space than a properly set up much smaller enclosure. Instead people should concentrate on proper niche establishment as the criteria as opposed to size of the enclosure (there are limits on this)..
> 
> ...My personal preference is to house non-dendrobatids with dendrobatids if I am shooting for a multispecies enclosure as the difference in shape and behavior renders any territorial aggression moot (as the responses etc are not triggered). (And I am going to note, I have worked with multi-tinctorious type groups together).
> 
> ...


I agree, but must ask: But why not stratify the space, if only to make the animals more comfortable? Wouldn't a couple of branches and/or broad-leaf plants keep the hylids up and away from the PDFs? Or is the diurnal/nocturnal difference enough? I have kept arboreal agamines with Ptychozoon, and it works. (Although, YEARS ago, kept Corythophanes with Phelsuma, and this was touch and go until the iguanids slapped the geckos around a bit--they got the message  I will not ever keep P. grandis again, as I found them to be very, very assertive animals--saurian version of aggressive cichlids). 

When I started in terraria, I followed the principles from aquarium keeping. In a 30 gal tank, 6 Zebras (top), 8 rasboras (middle) and 4 small loaches (bottom) will work in a planted tank. (Throw in a pair of Dwarf gouramis, and Amano can give me a prize...)

Ed, let me ask you straight up: Do you think Des Vosjoli goes a bit too far? In other words, a little too quick to recommend mixing? After all, he is making recommendations to the hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> I agree, but must ask: But why not stratify the space, if only to make the animals more comfortable? Wouldn't a couple of branches and/or broad-leaf plants keep the hylids up and away from the PDFs? Or is the diurnal/nocturnal difference enough? I have kept arboreal agamines with Ptychozoon, and it works. (Although, YEARS ago, kept Corythophanes with Phelsuma, and this was touch and go until the iguanids slapped the geckos around a bit--they got the message  I will not ever keep P. grandis again, as I found them to be very, very assertive animals--saurian version of aggressive cichlids).
> 
> When I started in terraria, I followed the principles from aquarium keeping. In a 30 gal tank, 6 Zebras (top), 8 rasboras (middle) and 4 small loaches (bottom) will work in a planted tank. (Throw in a pair of Dwarf gouramis, and Amano can give me a prize...)
> 
> Ed, let me ask you straight up: Do you think Des Vosjoli goes a bit too far? In other words, a little too quick to recommend mixing? After all, he is making recommendations to the hobby.


To be honest I haven't read anything Vosjoli has written for about 5 -8 years or so... If you have some references I'll check them out. 

I'm not against adding structure that creates different levels in the tank, what I was trying to address is the thought that because two species encounter one another it is automatically stressful. If they are competing for the same resources (like basking lizards), then you can have issues and stratifying makes more sense. But this is not automatically the case when species compete for a resource (counter example, basking turtles.. mixed species stacked aggregations are not uncommon and are not considered stressful) so one has to be aware of niche requirements as well as individual behaviors. 
Nocturnal/diurnal makes for an easy differentiation but for it to work it requires that the various niches are appropriate so animals are not forced to compete (like temperatures being too cool and forcing nocturnal animals to bask to meet thermal needs). Competition for food is not normally a stressful encounter between disparate taxa as it requires the two species to view each other as competitiors. 

Some thoughts,

Ed


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> To be honest I haven't read anything Vosjoli has written for about 5 -8 years or so... If you have some references I'll check them out.
> 
> I'm not against adding structure that creates different levels in the tank, what I was trying to address is the thought that because two species encounter one another it is automatically stressful. If they are competing for the same resources (like basking lizards), then you can have issues and stratifying makes more sense. But this is not automatically the case when species compete for a resource (counter example, basking turtles.. mixed species stacked aggregations are not uncommon and are not considered stressful) so one has to be aware of niche requirements as well as individual behaviors.
> Nocturnal/diurnal makes for an easy differentiation but for it to work it requires that the various niches are appropriate so animals are not forced to compete (like temperatures being too cool and forcing nocturnal animals to bask to meet thermal needs). Competition for food is not normally a stressful encounter between disparate taxa as it requires the two species to view each other as competitiors.
> ...


I have read quite a bit of what Philip Vosjoli has to say dating back to his "vivarium magazine" days and do not find any of his recommendations particularly extreme. The key I find is to work with species that would not normally compete aggressively with each other. To use an extreme example I have a 2'by2'by4' screen cage with the following mix of animals:

Chinese Flying Frogs, male Lined Leaf tail, Trio of Golden Geckos, Green Tree skinks, a male bell's tree dragon, a pair of malagasy plateds and a pair of fire skinks. In my opinion this is a very heavy population density for this size of cage. But it works because there are multiple niches established as well as multiple basking, feeding and hiding spots. In the 6 years that it has been in existense the frogs, tree skinks and golden geckos have all bred and I haven't seen any sign of aggression towards the offspring or other animals.

I would certainly hesitate to recommend this to any one else. I have had to remove problem animals out of the cage. But this was more the case of Green Tree skinks being overly aggressive to other tree skinks as opposed to inter-species aggression or intimidation.


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