# How long does it take thumbnails to die



## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

...of malnutrition?

I've had my Ranitomeya Amazonica Iquitos for around a month now and *not once* have I seen them take mels, dusted or otherwise.

They're in a 55g well planted enclosure (more like 40 given the depth of substrate) and seem to be doing okay (not losing any weight) but I'm at a loss as to why I've not seen them take FFs.

Before someone says it: I don't believe that the enclosure is too big, they're finding or, rather, bumping into the mels frequently enough - they just don't seem interested, preferring springtails.

I add 100 or so every other day and they do seem to dwindle but isopods seem to like them. That said, I'm not convinced isopods are reducing FF numbers this quickly. 

Any suggestions? Is it possible to administer calcium topically or otherwise?


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

What was the quarantine procedure these guys?




PBM3000 said:


> Before someone says it: I don't believe that the enclosure is too big, they're finding or, rather, bumping into the mels frequently enough - they just don't seem interested, preferring springtails.


The problem with a big tank is not that the frogs won’t encounter flies, but that the springtail population will always be big enough that the frogs might preferentially feed on springs and ignore flies. As has been previously stated.



> I add 100 or so every other day and they do seem to dwindle but isopods seem to like them. That said, I'm not convinced isopods are reducing FF numbers this quickly.


That is a lot of flies- especially if you don’t think they’re getting eaten. I don’t think isopods catch and eat live adult fruit flies.



> Is it possible to administer calcium topically or otherwise?


Calcium gluconate can be used as a rescue measure.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Can you post a photo of the vivarium?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Are you feeding in the same place every time? Have you tried a feeding station? If you put a piece of banana in there and make sure to feed around the banana every time, the frogs will get used to that being where easy food can be found. It could allow you to cut back on the number of flies you feed, too, which will push them more toward taking the freshly-dusted flies preferentially. I also feed right after hand misting every time to establish the misting as the dinner bell. It seems to work pretty well and I see more of my frogs right after I feed than at most other times. I think it's a worthy goal to try to get them to eat dusted fruit flies. 

Mark


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Broseph said:


> What was the quarantine procedure these guys?


As per consensus, none. Most seemed to say as they were together already and were going into a 'virgin' enclosure, quarantine wouldn't have proven useful. This issue wouldn't have been noted in quarantine anyway. 



> The problem with a big tank is not that the frogs won’t encounter flies, but that the springtail population will always be big enough that the frogs might preferentially feed on springs and ignore flies. As has been previously stated.


Yes, I wish I'd known this _prior_ to commitment to the order.



> I don’t think isopods catch and eat live adult fruit flies.


I've seen them do it.



> Calcium gluconate can be used as a rescue measure.


But long term?

I think my only option really is to sell them on before they get sick. Disappointing. 

Thanks for your feedback.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Tijl said:


> Can you post a photo of the vivarium?


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> Are you feeding in the same place every time?


No, I've been varying this so that the FFs spread.



> Have you tried a feeding station? If you put a piece of banana in there and make sure to feed around the banana every time, the frogs will get used to that being where easy food can be found. It could allow you to cut back on the number of flies you feed, too, which will push them more toward taking the freshly-dusted flies preferentially. I also feed right after hand misting every time to establish the misting as the dinner bell. It seems to work pretty well and I see more of my frogs right after I feed than at most other times. I think it's a worthy goal to try to get them to eat dusted fruit flies.


I had tried a feeding station for a little while but noticed no benefit. Perhaps I could try more than a few days at a time tho. My doubt about a feeding station was localising the food source in a small area when the frogs had the run of such a large enclosure. I suppose I could try a station over a much longer period and see.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Do not give up on the feeding station. It mimics feeding, breeding, and migratory insect swarm cluster encounters that could very well enhance receptivity.

A very small drop of apple cider vinegar on the food item can increase food station fruit attractiveness. No need to Over Do it tho, in reaction to your angst to see your frogs feed.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

I'll sure give it a try again tomorrow and going forward.

I've given the enclosure a lengthy blast of Raid® to make the springtail population die off further.





j/k ;-)
.


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## Gemma (Jan 25, 2020)

Nemertea can & will reduce ff & isopod populations so keep an eye out for them. The chances of them being in your tank though will be slim if you washed down & sterilised any plants you added in. 

I add in multiple feeding stations into what I consider larger tanks with a mix of fast & slow release insects using film canisters & sort of creating exit holes for the flies & springs leave. I add these in at every layer within the tank. 

I’m confident they will be taking mels, it’s quite difficult for them to sustain weight just on springtails alone unless you’re populations are incredibly heavy enough to afford them this as their primary food source. 

I understand your worry over the lack of calcium, keep adding in you’re dusted mels, they will be taking them. You could try an alternative fly type, maybe Turkish gliders, they are more active & “interesting” to the frogs. You can also rear your springs on calcium rich foods. 

One other thing I will be doing with their final home, is adding in a calcium rich clay background. The background won’t be entirely made of clay but there will be portions of clay in the likely areas they will be overnight. 

Try not to worry, thumbs lose weight incredibly quickly if they don’t have access to food, if yours are maintaining the weight you got them at then they are most definitely eating. 

On a final note, check for poo! I do this regularly & it’s easy to see when they’ve gorged on flies for sure. There will be more mass to it.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Last time I beat this dead horse, I promise. 

Re: quarantine:


PBM3000 said:


> As per consensus, none. Most seemed to say as they were together already and were going into a 'virgin' enclosure, quarantine wouldn't have proven useful. This issue wouldn't have been noted in quarantine anyway.


Part of quarantine involves observing the animals' feeding responses. And looking for illness/parasites. Skipping quarantine can make a large costly display viv all but useless by putting diseased frogs in it. 

I sincerely wish you luck. (I don't know how to make it sound like I'm being genuine, but I am. Maybe an emoji would help.  )


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Is there a ‘won’t eat FF but everything else’ disease?


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

PBM3000 said:


> Is there a ‘won’t eat FF but everything else’ disease?


No. I'm just advocating for a thorough quarantine process and explaining some of the less obvious benefits. 

I think my very first post on this forum was "help I don't think my new frog isn't eating dusted flies." Since that time I've learned some stuff (and still have a long way to go). I still get worried sometimes when I really stop and watch juvenile thumbs trying to eat flies. They seem so clumsy and ineffective, and they need so very few flies to fill up. 

That is why I keep them in small simple enclosures with a bait station at first. I've raised thumbs to sexual maturity in 20 quart sterile containers just because it's so easy and effective.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

To answer your original question. The younger the animal the 'quicker' a calcium deficiency can develop. 

However deficiencies are less "quantitative" then the fears of current keeping ideologies express, if we are following what has been a universality of data spanning many decades, and relying on chordate growth, development, and deficiency models. 

It has not been posed per any data ive encountered that frogs are any different.

If I were you, I would provide attractive "nutrient balls" of food matter for the fauna you ascertain as being the favored prey of your frogs, make them dense with supplement and rich with appeal. Put the balls flush to top in plastic caps to accommodate and monitor and refresh of matter. 

I find dampened, kneaded fish flakes to be a good composite base, go ahead and add calcium, A Palmitate, d3, and place the caps deeply in sites where you notice congregation. Press into the sub to enable easy access.

I dont think you have to worry as much as you are.


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

I've had my Ranitomeya for over a year and I've rarely seen them feed. Similar story to the above, I've fed at the same time to the same place but they are very shy and only 1 is seen out regularly & never on the floor. The viv is well planted and has plenty of secluded spots, possibly too many. Every time I do catch one out they still look healthy, quick and well fed so I have to assume all is ok. 

I'm however relatively new to Dart Frogs so I'm posting my experiences, not advice.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Kmc said:


> If I were you, I would provide attractive "nutrient balls" of food matter for the fauna you ascertain as being the favored prey of your frogs, make them dense with supplement and rich with appeal. Put the balls flush to top in plastic caps to accommodate and monitor and refresh of matter.
> 
> I find dampened, kneaded fish flakes to be a good composite base, go ahead and add calcium, A Palmitate, d3, and place the caps deeply in sites where you notice congregation. Press into the sub to enable easy access.


That sounds like a great idea and I can certainly give that a try alongside a permanent feeding station (although I hate the unnatural look of it!).



> I dont think you have to worry as much as you are.


Probably not. Like I said they do seem to be 'well' in appearance, frog poop seems abundant and often substantial. My hunch is that they _are_ in fact taking FFs but after four weeks of not having seen them do so even once is just worrying.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Broseph said:


> I don’t think isopods catch and eat live adult fruit flies.


Here are two captured today on my cellphone eating Melanogaster. They love the feeding station.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

This is why you don't want large isopods. They need a ton of calcium and go after flies. Anything that cuts into fly acquisition is not what you want.

Hiding frogs? Don't think they are eating? They are. You would be surprised.

I'd recc growing out shingling plants all over the back and side walls prior to frogs. Shingling plants add much need humidity - retain moisture


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Philsuma said:


> This is why you don't want large isopods. They need a ton of calcium and go after flies. Anything that cuts into fly acquisition is not what you want.
> 
> Hiding frogs? Don't think they are eating? They are. You would be surprised.
> 
> I'd recc growing out shingling plants all over the back and side walls prior to frogs. Shingling plants add much need humidity - retain moisture


All what phil said + you should add way more leaflitter!! The frogs will be more active on the bottom of the tank when there is more leaflitter to hide in. When you add a feedingstation to the tank, they will not use it if it stand in the tank without any quick escape possibilties for the frogs. Now they hide due to the lack of hidingplaces on the bottom and therefore they only eat what passes by.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

PBM3000 said:


> Here are two captured today on my cellphone eating Melanogaster. They love the feeding station.


Dang! After your initial post describing it, I did a little research looking for more info (“research”=one page of google results) and couldn’t find any examples of predatory terrestrial isopods.

But...









I stay away from the bigger isopods because I think they eat orchid leaves. Now I have another reason.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Hmm. That wasn't in the instructions!

Break out the isopod removal machine!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I feel as though im tip toeing through dangerous territory to say that the bio active modality of small fauna in a closed system has the potentiality of biotic chaos, it isnt a self regulating paradise, it is, in all actuality; a mixed species community.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Certainly seems that way. Any tips on removing large Isopods? And how is large defined?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Protein and fats, warmth, security and moisture. In traps with good inner texture for clinging little feet.

Maybe in monkey pods or coconut shells, or small pieces of bamboo.

Warmth and olfactory cues in combination really draws little critters dependably.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Cups partially full of water... Isopods will drown themselves. I've found 3 drowned Isopods this week in my tank's film canister 

And pieces of wood and charcoal will draw them out as well.


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## RyanD (Jul 18, 2006)

PBM3000 said:


> Certainly seems that way. Any tips on removing large Isopods? And how is large defined?


Do you know what species of isopods you have? 

I can't imagine any of the dwarf varieties would get large enough to compete for food availability. The bigger ones like Dalmatians or the giant oranges maybe, but I would think there would be plenty of fruit flies that would be available for the frogs. 

This thread has some good discussion about isopod competition (with other isopods) and nutrition. https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/f...n-when-utilising-different-isos-same-viv.html


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

It's been well documented that many of the larger isopod species will regularly take dusted flies inorder to obtain much need calcium ect.

I guess it's not so much that the isopods are taking dinner away from frogs but more so that large isopods are just not ideal in a dart frog vivarium. They will also eat plants. The bigger the bug = the more it eats.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The tocopherol sequestering discussion is an important note, per fish flake use.

An example of why following links can lead to important roads and even updates in modality.

To pull good numbers in a trap, the bait has to have more attraction for an opportunistic 'cadaver' gorge than the other food sources so abundantly available in viv.

Fish flakes have nice practical qualities balled up and may be acceptable for an overnight trap use, but not for feeding stations it seems, because of the tocopherol used to preserve the fish meal. 

Hmm. I think a medallion of raw chicken pressed in a plastic cap and put in a tube, etc would get lively trap results.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

And I wouldn't freak out and think you have to capture or eradicate all your big boi isopods or your frogs will suffer and die.

everything will be ok and the big isopods aren't going to hurt them

just don't add any more to the viv.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

re: big bugz. I have a breeding pair of sylvatica 'Litas' the produce froglets and in that vivs is.....is.....

a 6 inch Asian centipede!

Been there for over a year and I can't get it out.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Philsuma said:


> re: big bugz. I have a breeding pair of sylvatica 'Litas' the produce froglets and in that vivs is.....is.....
> 
> a 6 inch Asian centipede!
> 
> Been there for over a year and I can't get it out.


I love hearing the confessions of experienced froggers!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I don't know if I'd call it a confession....more of an admission.

and trust me, I wish it was gone. That huge centipede eats a bunch of flies. More than 10 isopods.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

The only consistent, dependable way to totally irradiate and get rid of pests such as slugs, millipedes, centipedes, Nemertea, or any other bug or pest is to remove your frogs and CO2 bomb the tank. 

Sometimes you will need to bomb the tank multiple times to deal with certain pest's ability to deal with hypoxia (lack of oxygen) and their hatching eggs. Many insect eggs are very resistant to CO2 / oxygen deprivation and you need to deal with them after they hatch. Springtails are somewhat resilient to hypoxia. I have had populations recover after CO2 bombings.

Trapping pests with bait is a way to lower pest populations, but rarely will totally eradicate the pest you are trying to eliminate.

On a plus note, your plants will love the added CO2.


CO2 Generator Article / Uses of CO2 in Dart Frogs Husbandry

Scroll to the top.


On the other hand, Phil is absolutely right. Large Isopods will not "Harm" your frogs. I have had an established tank with large isopods and thumbnails together for years. Over a period of time the Isopods have eaten lots of wood / bark / and plant material, as well as frog poo, but the frogs are oblivious except for when they are eating Isopod babies. 

Dwarf isopods are most likely a better overall long term food source as the frogs can eat the adults as well as the young.

Larger isopods are interesting to watch though.


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## Soylentgreentea (Oct 7, 2019)

PBM3000 said:


> ...of malnutrition?
> 
> I've had my Ranitomeya Amazonica Iquitos for around a month now and *not once* have I seen them take mels, dusted or otherwise.
> 
> ...




I have 5 ranitomeya amizonica Iquitos frogs. I’ve had them for over a year. They spend a ton of time hidden away in the foliage. I can get them to come out by running the mister for a few minutes usually.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Broseph said:


> Dang! After your initial post describing it, I did a little research looking for more info (“research”=one page of google results) and couldn’t find any examples of predatory terrestrial isopods.
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


I posted another example a while back in this thread: Isopods attacking frogs

But as other people said before, they've never harmed any of my frogs.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

You could always move the frogs into quarantine, and observe feeding that way.

Some of my mantellas I rarely see, so I rarely see them eat. Apparently I have had two mantella ebenaui which I rarely observe for the last 16 years.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Great news - I've seen them eating FFs!

Okay, I've seen _ONE_ eat _A_ FF but that's progress in my book. All still healthy and active it would seem.


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