# Do you think I owe a refund?



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

For your consideration:

Let’s say I sold you multiple frogs that had been housed together by me, the seller. One of them died from what appeared to be an infection. There were visible lesions on the skin. This frog died within the 7 day period I gave for a refund. Following that period, several of the other frogs died, apparently from the same infection as they had the same lesions and symptoms.

Now, would I owe you a refund for only the first frog that died, since it was within the 7 day period? Or, would I also owe you a refund for the other frogs that died. And what of the remaining frogs that may also be sick and carrying this disease? Should I be expected to take them back and refund you or are they yours now?

Discuss 

(disclaimer: this is purely hypothetical)


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## frogmanchu (Feb 18, 2011)

I think it would be my ( I.e the breeder) to refund for entire lot unless the buyer wanted to keep them. This being said because one died within the 7 days it is to be expected the others might. So given the response from the buyer on keeping said frogs. I would repay in full or partial after giving the buyer a keep or refund option.
Some thoughts
Chris.

Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 2


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## drewman1962 (Apr 16, 2012)

The first frog for sure. The rest if you want repeat business, or you make arrangements if they are open to it, for free frogs in the future if you are breeding more of them. I would hope you would try to work something out with them, if it looks like they had the infection from the start. However, if you feel, the infection could have happened at their end, you could approach it like that and maybe work out a share in the cost agreement. 
Just try to lean on the side of being as helpful as possible without giving the farm away.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

What if, instead of a refund, I offered to replace some of the frogs with other frogs in my collection. Would you take replacement frogs from a collection that you know has sick frogs?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The whole group should be refunded if it is obvious they all died from the same thing, they were all tainted and should be covered even if it took longer than 7 days for them all to die.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Are/have the frogs being treated, or did the buyer just let them die expecting a refund? If the latter I might just replace the one frog. This is assuming I'm not having any issues with the infection on my end.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Hypothetically.... has the infection been diagnosed? Maybe the buyer has a tank full of jagged slate, etc. Also, how far beyond the 7 day period are we talking? Is a treatment plan in place?

There is a certain level of risk and responsibility on the buyer's behalf. But, if the cause is clearly that of the seller's then the scale does tip a bit.......

I would also add it is not necesarrily obvious that they are all dying from the same thing. What sort of documentation is being provided (theoretically) from the buyer?


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

Hmm...The first frog full refund since it was within the grace period, The other frogs full refund if they had the same thing wrong with them and they ended up dieing after the 7 days. I would not want any replacement frogs coming from that breeder in the future that sold me sick frogs from his/her frog room thanks but i will pass. I have to many frogs in my collection to risk something spreading. Now lets say the remaining frogs were ill with the same thing but didnt die i would pay for the treatment of the frogs if the new owner wanted to treat them or give full refund as well just because they were sick frogs and the risk of contaminating there collection was at risk. I would do what ever i could to make it right with the buyer. Your reputation is worth more than a few frogs.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think I was being too vague. Let me ask another way. Does the buyer in the following thread deserve a refund? What if you found out that the seller had been housing his Red Eye breeders with his WC Ruby Eyes? Would that change your perception?

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...agious-form-dermatitis-they-carriers-now.html


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Honestly, I would want a FULL refund. And I would not accept replacement frogs until we knew whose fault the frogs death was. They shouldn't be housed together I know, and I wouldn't have put them up for sale if I knew the risks of housing together and yes the seller should give a full refund. Kris your great and all and I respect you, but WHY WOULD YOU HOUSE THEM TOGETHER!!!!! Just kidding kris. I know this is hypothetical.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

I think they should get a refund. They bought sick frogs from a breeder. it doesnt matter what caused the frogs to become ill. Fact is they were sick from the breeder where as they were under the impression they were buying healthy frogs.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Totally diferent sitatuation now with the link. I would want some answers from the seller. My main point of interest is why they sold their breeders in an effort to reload with a new breeding stock? Had they tested positive for pathorgen-X prior to sale?

*edit: Did the seller have a table at the show? If so the promotor may want to be made aware of the situation as well.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

frogface said:


> I think I was being too vague. Let me ask another way. Does the buyer in the following thread deserve a refund? What if you found out that the seller had been housing his Red Eye breeders with his WC Ruby Eyes? Would that change your perception?
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...agious-form-dermatitis-they-carriers-now.html


If the situation is as described, personally I would refund the money.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

You could offer replacement frogs but that would be an option for the buyer to decide if it is acceptable, the question is why? If the breeder is at fault then why would the seller want replacements from that breeder? and if the seller is causing the death why on earth would you as a breeder want to keep sending frogs to them and incurring further costs? Cut your losses on shipping and refund them and tell them to look elsewhere for frogs. Some customers are not worth the hassle. 

The whole point of a limit on a the grace period is not to set a hard limit but to protect yourself from bad buyers. If you are a seller who wants to keep a good reputation then you would easily extend past the deadline to replace all the frogs unless you have very good evidence that the buyer is actually at fault, then you would only refund them for the first frog.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

I would not want the replacement frogs, who knows what has been contaminated. Not worth risking the welling being of my other frogs. Full refund and a public apology and acknowledgment for the fact of selling to others I am sure not just one person. As a community we need to know where these frogs went....are there some at my local pet store? Are they all over the country? This is a huge issue of contamination! These people need to be held accountable! 

People need to Man up, be a person of integrity and keeper of their word, and care about the well being of the frogs and the people they do business with. This hobby is a passion we have for the love of the frogs we keep. Not a quick way to make a buck, scam people, or screw up and try to cover their butts. 

Just my .02


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

I think I know what you are talking about since I believe I saw the problem someone was having. Honestly the whole group should be refunded but I'd definitely pass on getting replacements from the same seller since it seems like he's been having problems with it himself. The red flag came up when the seller mentioned to the buyer that he was selling them at a show because he had broken down his terrarium and was starting over for some reason. That right there just automatically puts a bad taste in your mouth. I saw the photos of the poor things and I hope I never see anything like that on any of my animals.

I still think the seller should replace all 4 frogs. No matter the guarantee on the health of the next frogs - it may be those next frogs that finish off the other frogs.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

frogface said:


> I think I was being too vague. Let me ask another way. Does the buyer in the following thread deserve a refund? What if you found out that the seller had been housing his Red Eye breeders with his WC Ruby Eyes? Would that change your perception?
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...agious-form-dermatitis-they-carriers-now.html


If someone was ignorant and stupid enough to house his breeders with wc ruby eyes then knowingly sold the offspring this way(with major health issues),not only should he do a total refund,but he should foot the bill to test and treat the entire collection!I would definitely not EVER get any other frogs from him and I would definitely leave negative feedback for all to read so no one buys frogs from someone knowingly selling diseased frogs that could potentially wipe out entire collections.This would be wrong on so many levels!
Just the thought pisses me off and reminds me of another notorious breeder(who's name shall not be mentioned)who sealed his own fate among many froggers because of similar crap.I really hope feedback was left for this transaction!Sorry to rant but this ones got me tweeked!


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## RETFgirl (Jul 25, 2013)

I was only accepting the frogs because they were supposedly from another breeder, and were CB adults. I am unsure what to do now because he "cant" have them sent directly to me from the breeder and wishes to intercept them for some reason. The whole situation is super shady and with the help of you guys I am really seeing how badly I was screwed with. I just wanted to have some sort of compensation and he was'nt honoring a cash refund for all of them only an exchange for more frogs. I cant make him pay me... but was hoping that I could at least have what I started with. I dont know what to do now....


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here is a link to the vendor feedback page. Look it over and think about it. Not all of the feedback is good. I'll see if I can pull a few bad ones to link for you, so you can see. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/

I'd let this guy know that you plan to make this transaction public. If he comes through, an update will be posted letting everyone know that he made good. If not, then the bad feedback stands. He knows the drill. Not just DB but also FF. I don't think John puts up with these shenanigans any more than DB does.

Eta: I forgot the link. I'm too mad to see straight


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## RETFgirl (Jul 25, 2013)

I am also a new member of FF. I actualluy posted about my juvi red eyed tree frog that is a teal color and he responded to it...meaning he also saw the post that I posted about the sickness that I posted here...but he didnt comment on it. It didnt really get the attention this one has. I think only one person responded to it


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

RETFgirl said:


> I am also a new member of FF. I actualluy posted about my juvi red eyed tree frog that is a teal color and he responded to it...meaning he also saw the post that I posted about the sickness that I posted here...but he didnt comment on it. It didnt really get the attention this one has. I think only one person responded to it


I think, over here, we tend to be older and grouchier


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## RETFgirl (Jul 25, 2013)

I am definitely going to discuss with him what Im going to do reg the vendor feedback and I will give him the option to still do right so that I can ammend it. I didnt plan to expose him because I made a deal not to as long as he fixed what he did. I have realized that by this deal everybody loses in the end and many more frogs could die. I will be posting the feedback tonight after the dentist. If he wants to make it right he can... if not then thats on his conciounce. Im just sick of getting the run around. thanks everybody for all your help and all the links that were provided showing me that this person had sickness spreading through the collection before I purchased. Now Im really upset. I got duped and my frogs were needlessly sentenced to death.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm thinking this case is one I would take here.

FaunaClassifieds - Powered by vBulletin

Best of luck!


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Truthfully, with a bacterial infection they can pick it up from anywhere as the bacteria is present in the ecosystem. Shipping causes stress which can lead the frogs open to infection. Without proof it came from the supplier, I don't think it can be put at their feet.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

edit: nvm. there is plenty of proof. Some of it circumstantial and some of it in-your-face. I'll let the buyer take this.


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## Dart guy 16 (Jan 16, 2012)

tough call, it comes down to a blame game kinda..

maybe offer a partial refund so everyone is content


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Like Kris said,there is more proof than can be posted right now.He will be under investigation and may be exposed on other sites too,but it is very obvious and there is some pretty damning evidence.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Please note: the following is my opinion/answer to the OP's hypothetical situation. I am not suggesting you apply my hind site in rectifying your real situation.

It is very difficult when the blame game gets going back and forth. It is of my opinion that a buyer is their own best weapon. Research! There is only one 'first guy to be had'. At some point, records begin to show. If there are no records, buyer beware, as you may become that 'first guy to be had'.

If you want to take a chance, protect yourself. If you've found an animal that you may not have another opportunity to find, and have no feedback to go on, have the animals checked by a vet. At some point one must say "i see a problem" and seek professional advice, if only for your own protection. First frog, within 7 days, it is good faith to refund/replace. When does it become the buyers problem for not doing anything to prevent further loss? There is no excuse for an animal to die of most bacterial infections once a problem is seen. It is a simple fix, possibly the sellers responsibility, but a fix none the less.

If you're going to take a chance, accept the consequences of not doing enough to protect yourself. If you didn't put yourself in the position to become that 'first guy to be had', you may not have been screwed.

Disclaimer: the above represent my opinion and are in no way suggestive of how others should conduct their business. Remember, you asked.


EDIT: I just read your thread, RETFgirl. It is definitely a situation I do not admire. I do not know the whole story, so please do not take my above answer as directed towards you. I put that in my introduction, but wanted to add this to be sure you understood that I was answering a hypothetical question, as asked by the OP.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I just want to point out that this issue probably would have quietly disappeared if RETFgirl wasn't being jerked around regarding reimbursement. So, those of you who dabble in the shadier side of frog selling, keep that in mind. Or not, because, really it's for the best when it all comes out.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

I can understand the terms of being taken advantage of. This is a fresh one for me, but for me my situation did not end with any frog loss. People (sellers, etc) need to realized if they start messing with people it will come back to burn them....maybe not today or tomorrow but it will. My feeling is, if you don't care enough about the frogs you keep and the people who trust you, get out. These are living breathing animals and the people who care about them should not be taken advantage, and ripped off to cover you butt. Have some respect. I think the seller needs to be a man and admit his mistake, I for one would respect him for that. Then he needs make amends with the buyer, and fix his breeding a care of the frogs he keeps. Don't get me wrong, just because he admits it doesn't mean I will trust frogs from him..


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

While Fauna Classifieds can be a great place to air one's grievances - it's also a place packed full of lies (in my limited engagement there).

It is now officially on the list with Dart Den as "Don't go there ... " for me.

s


frogfreak said:


> I'm thinking this case is one I would take here.
> 
> FaunaClassifieds - Powered by vBulletin
> 
> Best of luck!


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

My concern is if he had these for sale at a show,not only is he potentially infecting the collections of the people he sold these frogs to,but what about the collections of the vendors with tables next to his.This could be catastrophical if it were to spread from collection to collection before it's discovered.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Scott said:


> While Fauna Classifieds can be a great place to air one's grievances - it's also a place packed full of lies (in my limited engagement there).
> 
> It is now officially on the list with Dart Den as "Don't go there ... " for me.
> 
> s


Well, she cant post here since she doesn't have 25 posts


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

RETFgirl said:


> I was only accepting the frogs because they were supposedly from another breeder, and were CB adults. I am unsure what to do now because he "cant" have them sent directly to me from the breeder and wishes to intercept them for some reason. The whole situation is super shady and with the help of you guys I am really seeing how badly I was screwed with. I just wanted to have some sort of compensation and he was'nt honoring a cash refund for all of them only an exchange for more frogs. I cant make him pay me... but was hoping that I could at least have what I started with. I dont know what to do now....


The talk of housing them with ruby eyes gives me a pretty good idea who this was (and it's exactly who I expected from reading the first thread). I would just chalk it up to a lesson learned and accept the loss. Because I have a feeling no matter what it's going to turn into a Giant PITA, any other way


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed had a premonition way back when:

edit: make that two



> I have to say, that since you cohoused the two species together, you should start getting some pcr tests for chytrid, ranavirus, as well as fecals done for various parasites... The cohousing of non-zoogeographically connected species is an excellent way to foster increased disease risk in the collection..





> If you end up with chytrid and/or ranavirus in your collection, you will lose a lot of frogs before you can stop it... Using rain chambers for multiple taxa increases the risks... and if you aren't aware of it... keep in mind that this contact is one of the driving thoughts behind the high mortality of chytrid, and also one of the things that the petition put forth before the USF&W service to ban all imports, and interstate travel of amphibians that are not certified free of chytrid.... See the discussion here anyone submitting comments about the chytrid petition?... The ruling still hasn't occurred so it can still happen..... So this sort of behavior is a risk to the entire hobby....



http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tr...-tree-frog-letopelis-uluguruensis-eggs-7.html


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This one is closed.

Situation is resolved - sort of - and it's starting to get personal.

s


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