# open air tank



## juanico (Jan 23, 2013)

Hi

i am new to this board, but am keeping dendros for many years already.

i have a new project in mind which is an open front terrarium. 
the size of the "tank" will be around 5m x 5m, 2m high.
there will be walls at the back and on both sides, the roof will be completely made of mosquito mesh...however i would like to avoid a front of any kind...for an unobstructed view...as the front will be part of my living room.

Now i am looking for possibilities how to make the front escape proof for frogs.

Any ideas?

cheers
juanico


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## limike (Dec 29, 2012)

I think With the mosquito mesh you will a hard time keeping the humidity up. With no front glass, you will have a hard time keeping the flies in the tank.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I may just not understand the type of construction you are trying to do.. but I'm not really sure how that would work. 

As stated in the last post, keeping the humidity high enough would be pretty tough with mesh.. and I can't comment on you wanting to avoid a front. That is the part I'm really not understanding.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

Have any drawings? Perhaps with a moat and inward-slanted front lip on the front with a shorter partition you might be able to pull it off. If you have tall plants, a long jump from the top will seem very doable to an adventurous frog....and they might even land it


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

An open tank with frogs is a bad idea. The possibility of them escaping and dieing is very high. You would also have a lot of fruit flies escaping and crawling all over your house (since they won't desiccate outside the viv). And also I think you'd find it hard to maintain a high enough humidity with a viv that's essentially totally open.

I think it's a bad idea. Frogs climb. Frogs jump. For example, a frog could just climb up the glass on the sides to the opening in the front (if there was something deterring them from just jumping out in the first place. If you care about the frogs you should design your viv to be safe and secure.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

You could use a protean tank and just keep the glass clean. Those don't really have an edge so you have good viewing and someone on here (I forget who) has instructions for a modded aquarium glass cleaning squeegee that seemed to work great.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

The size (from the conversion I'm figuring out) would be around 16'x16'x6' which would be massive. Is that the size tank you are really going for, or was that a typo? 

The moat mentioned is the ONLY way that I could think of it being even remotely possible.. if you really did intend on having no glass in the front. I still think it would be nearly (if not completely) impossible to keep the humidity in a safe range. Aside from that it is a huge risk for your frogs to escape as well as for your home to be infested with feeder insects. I can see how the idea would seem amazing.. but I don't see how it could work safely.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Invisible fence...


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

Assuming the size wasn't a typo - you can keep the humidity up with an open front if you have enough standing water but it will unfortunately also increas the humidity in you house or wherever you want to put this tank. Might on a smaller tank to. Frogs can climb on virtually anything so not sure how you would keep them in there.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Moriko said:


> The moat mentioned is the ONLY way that I could think of it being even remotely possible.. if you really did intend on having no glass in the front.


A moat would not contain frogs. Frogs can swim/walk along the bottom of a water feature. All frogs (even large ones like tincs) can climb glass, and it would be easy for them to scale the glass on the sides and just jump out the open front.

You also don't want such an open viv because there are things that you want to keep from getting INTO the viv. Like spiders, ants, and roaches.


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

Paludarium. - Le blog de Clément Go to this site and look at Paludariums. There are also other sites under this same listing. You can do the tank just not keep frogs in it--fish maybe in the lower part of aquatic frogs.


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## juanico (Jan 23, 2013)

[/QUOTE]hi

thanks for the replies.
a few clarifications:
1. it is not a typo, it is supposed to be that huge.
2. humidity, temperature is not an issue
3. fruit flies are not an issue, because there will be no feeding...i think the area of the (matured) tank is huge enough to feed 2 pairs of pumilio and a few auratus....if ever required crickets, collembola, non-flying fruitflies will be added.

but please lets return to the actual question:

my only concern are the frogs. i'll try to handle the ceiling and the front bottom with a backlog/bulge...see pic...so far in smaller tanks it works.
plants, and any other decoration will be at least 1 m away from the front...so jumping shouldn't be a problem.









but i have no idea yet how to make the walls/sides at the front escape proof.

cheers
juanico


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Without front glass, it will not be escape proof. Frogs jump. Frogs swim. Frogs climb glass without a problem. I have caught my thumbnails hanging upside down from the top glass.
To be even more specific, a moat will NOT slow them down. They will simply swim across it.
Sloped glass will NOT slow them down. I have custom, slope front vivs. The glass is sloped inward and upward at about a 45 degree angle. They defy gravity and climb up it all the time. In fact, Pumilio and thumbnails can hang completely upside down on the top glass. I have also seen larger frogs, like Tincs, climb vertical glass. 
You need a PHYSICAL BARRIER to keep your frogs in. I'm talking about being glassed in or screened in.
I repeat, frogs jump. Frogs swim. Frogs climb glass without a problem.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

With no feedings, how will you keep your frogs from dropping dead from a lack of vitamin supplements and calcium supplements?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

The more information that you give, the more it seems like a bad idea. You'll definitely need to feed. Also, mixing frog species is generally a bad idea, especially if this is your first time dealing with frogs.


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## juanico (Jan 23, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> ...especially if this is your first time dealing with frogs.


...reading my first post might be a good idea...


i really would appreciate if we could just focus on my question.
if there is no solution to this, then indeed i have to consider a glass front, but i do not like to give up that soon


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

juanico said:


> ...reading my first post might be a good idea...
> 
> 
> i really would appreciate if we could just focus on my question.
> if there is no solution to this, then indeed i have to consider a glass front, but i do not like to give up that soon


They are focusing on your question. And the answer is there is no contraption that will keep frogs in an open front tank, at least not one that would be safe for the frogs. One gentleman was even kind enough to advise you that your feeding plan would likely result in the premature death of your frogs.


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

There's no way to do it and in order to keep the humidity at acceptable levels you would need to keep the room at 70+ humidity which unless your room is waterproof it will destroy the room and possibly the entire house look up mr4000 it was a reef tank but the general idea remains this guy built a 4000 gallon reef and it destroyed his house do to the humidity


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## myelbuh2 (Jul 2, 2009)

@ original poster. You are being extremely arrogant. If you have been in the hobby as long as you say you have, you would know that what you're trying to do is irresponsible. The people who have responded to you are all trying to give you advice to explain why, yet you keep rudely avoiding their advice. If you plan on keeping frogs, the humidity needs to be at least 80%, and as someone else said earlier, you can't achieve this humidity with an open front unless your entire room is kept at this humidity, which again someone else said, will destroy your house very quickly. 
Again, if you have been doing this as long as you say you have, you would also know that herps and ffs are escape artists, you will not ever come up with a way of keeping them contained with an open front unless you have set all the contents of the viv so far back into the enclosure that it would become a waste of space, and pointless to have that size enclosure at all. Yes, many people have made open front vivariums or paludariums but they are certainly not appropriate for frogs. Husbandry should be about providing the best possible environment for the animal, as close to its natural habitat as possible. Doing what you are trying to do is putting your personal desire above the best interest of the animal to their detriment. You will be unable to keep healthy frogs if you try this, especially if you dont feed. What, do you think springtails alone will be able to feed your frogs? And do you think a sustainable population will exist? 
You have been rude to people trying to help you, you have been arrogant, irresponsible and unrealistic. Do what's right for the frogs, not yourself


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## Sticky Fingers (Sep 28, 2011)

I would make a force field to cover your enclosure. Maybe even make tiny shock collars for your frogs.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

vivbulider said:


> There's no way to do it and in order to keep the humidity at acceptable levels you would need to keep the room at 70+ humidity which unless your room is waterproof it will destroy the room and possibly the entire house look up mr4000 it was a reef tank but the general idea remains this guy built a 4000 gallon reef and it destroyed his house do to the humidity


I have searched and didnt find any thing about it destroying his house


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I addressed your question. I addressed it completely, directly, and to the point. Why do you refuse to address mine?
Never mind, I tried to help *your frogs*. With the attitude you are throwing around, I don't care to waste my time trying to help *you* anymore.
I wish your frogs the best of luck in trying to survive more than 24 hours in your "care".


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

I also recently has a mold problem due to increase humidity in my house due to an "open air tank". It was actually the Bumble Bee Toad breeding set up I had with 3 shoe boxes (with top) floating in a sweater box without a top and I had mold show up in the corners of 2 bedrooms and the kitchen. I have since put the top on the sweater box and cut holes for the shoe boxes to fit into. I described in one of my threads and it may be this one and if not it shows the open tank and it's nowhere near as big as yours but the evaporation did become a problem http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/toads/60520-bumble-bee-toads-breeding.html I would take these peoples advice and not do it (not add the dart frogs) and the humidity will almost surely be a problem. Good luck.


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## Bjcg (Jan 4, 2013)

I know what yu can do... Yu can make the whole setup, make it look real nice. Add your substrate, tropical plants, put in your imaginary frogs (any size/kind) and feed them imaginary fruitflies


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/toads/91275-bumblebee-toad-species-id.html Here is the post where I spoke of the humidity problem recently.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Juanico,

A 5m x 5m x 2m self contained vivarium would be incredible! I understand your concept and think it would be awesome. We definitely need pictures when it happens. 

There are a lot of naysayers to not having a front and not feeding. I personally think you’ll need a front for the safety of the frogs – to keep them in and keep the uglies out. Feeding could be minimal once you get your micro-ecosystem growing. Diversity will be important and supplements will still be necessary.

Hopefully we can be productive and provide some helpful information for you. =)

Looking forward to hearing more!

Brad


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

bsr8129 said:


> I have searched and didnt find any thing about it destroying his house


Read this Strange ?... Huge basement tank. - The Reef Tank the water damage was terrible


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

If a front partition was put in place, consider moving "obstacles" that play into the design of the build. Perhaps a partition built and designed liked the zero-edge reef aquariums that constantly send water over the edge. Water features on the sides near the front could work as well, but you would be talking some serious force with the water to make it effective and this could damage a frog if it took a wrong step... That still leaves the top space to contend with...... It's tough to say. Eventually you'd have so many rigs in place that it could take away from the ascetic appearance of the entire enclosure.

Aside from all the other potential issues mentioned (mold, weight, etc), it's still a fun build to think about. Innovative design never rises by an immediate assumption of "can't".


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

bsr8129 said:


> I have searched and didnt find any thing about it destroying his house


I stated that maintaining humidity in an open setup that large would lead to high humidity levels in his house/structure. High humidity in your house will ultimately ruin it.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

vivbulider said:


> Read this Strange ?... Huge basement tank. - The Reef Tank the water damage was terrible


that just talks about it doesnt actually relate to it destoying the house, and its dated 2004, yet there are links to another topic on the same tank dated 2006 and its not destroying the house there. and seems like they took humidity into consideration

"The basement has extra floor drains, a 2.5 ton dedicated Air Conditioner and Honeywell fresh-air exchanger for humidity control"


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

More I think about it I think technically you can do this. With the size tank he is doing, of you have a waterfall on each side of the tank, and I mean raging water falls and a fast moving water area at the front of the tank, around 1m wide, i think this would keep in most tincs or arutus frogs in, now they might get washed away but maybe not. with this amount of fast moving water in the front of the tank i would think humidity inside the tank with misting a couple of times a day would stay high enough for frogs. 

It would be one hell of a tank, do able yes. Practical maybe not


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## kev_n_gina (Jan 21, 2013)

first I would like to say that reading the tread you come accross abrassive, Hence the negitve reaction you ae getting from members. There are also some very "concerning issues" which you are not addressing which further leads to discrimination from members of the board which are only concerned about the frogs. I would imagine based on the information available you are not in the US. Possible this is the reason humidity, food and heat are not an issue.

Your area is VERY large Zoo size to be exact so-

My only comment is - The Tulsa ZOO in their south American exihbit have a 20' x 20' are which they have doors on either side with a trail down the one edge the other side has a rasied wall to "hip hight", the other side of the wall is stone for about 2 feet then the rest is heavily planted with a rock bed stream down the middle. I asked the keeper if the needed to wrangle the frogs in the morning and her reply was that supprising few leave the "protective canopy" and at most they have found some on the raised wall but for the most part they are found within the plants in the morning.

They have Aurautus anf Luecs.



I just had an epiphany - Thanks to what bsr just said WHAT if the "front area had a wall or "handrail" which WAS the waterfall back into the tank area. In the tank area could be a submerged drain/sump which pumped water back up the "wall" out the top cascading back down. The water could be of sufficiant flow to impede the frogs from climbing the wall ,most likley the splashing of the water fall would keep them away entirely( i am thinking Niagra falls in scale) . This would also assist humidity if needed. 



Now to figure out the walls. but I really do think that the frogs will avoid them due to the "open ness"

However this my be hindered if this is your way of getting ont o enclosure. It would also be a real a son of gun since you would have to pee everytime you go into your living room

My concern would more so be torrwards when if ever would you see your frogs?


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

i'll try to handle the ceiling and the front bottom with a backlog/bulge...see pic...so far in smaller tanks it works.
plants, and any other decoration will be at least 1 m away from the front...so jumping shouldn't be a problem.

but i have no idea yet how to make the walls/sides at the front escape proof.

[/QUOTE]

Seems like you have already figured out how to do it. If it's working in a smaller tank (which I'd love to see pictures of) why wouldn't the same method work in a bigger tank?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

3. fruit flies are not an issue, because there will be no feeding...i think the area of the (matured) tank is huge enough to feed 2 pairs of pumilio and a few auratus....if ever required crickets, collembola, non-flying fruitflies will be added.[/QUOTE]

It seems odd that someone with "years experience" would even suggest something like this. But nevermind that....


As another member who is much more experienced than me pointed out in an attempt to help, without supplementing your frogs with essential nutrients like calcium and vitamin A + D, the frogs would inevitably have health problems and die.

Also, although I've never kept them, I've consistently read on the boards that male pumilio are extremely territorial/aggressive towards other male pumilio (even more so in captivity tan in the wild). The fact that you plan on putting multiple pairs of these aggressive frogs, along with other frogs seems like a bad idea to me...

Lastly, an open side, no matter which side, will allow the frogs to escape and there is nothing you can do to change that. If there is a hole big enough for the frogs to go through, they eventually will. Here are some basic drawings of paths that your frogs could easily take to get out of the enclosure, with the frogs' potential path in red:


















The members of the board are trying to be helpful and give you the best advice they can, based on their previous experiences with the matter. You can chose to ignore our advice if you want, but we're only trying to be helpful...


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe you could use a Teflon spray of some sorts? If you spray a bar across the glass the frogs would then, in the best of worlds, not be able to climb past it. I know this works somewhat well with animals that climb using van der Waals forces, such as geckos and some insects. The question is if it works also when it's the surface tension of water that enables the animal to climb..


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

If you're going to put that much money into a viv, why not just get a huge piece of glass, and create a way to keep it clean? Maybe a full-size squeegee, that hides behind the edge of the glass, and slides across and hides behind the other side


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## juanico (Jan 23, 2013)

first of all, i am happy, that this thread has become constructive.
if i appear to be rude, sorry for that, it was not my intention.

this is a real project, which i'll start constructing in december. the question i asked i real as well, but in the first two pages most of the replies were (aggressive) accusations and not-possible answers and replies which are not related to my question...that's why i asked to focus on this escape-proof-thing.

humidity is no problem because i live in the tropics...70-100% all year round.

feeding seems unnecessary, because i know 2 tanks of similar size which support an similar population of frogs sustainably and only with little additional feeding. supplements not necessary, since the frogs get natural food and genuine sunlight.

coming back to the topic: i never said it is possible to do it open front, but it is worth to think about it for a while and collect some suggestions.
if it is not possible at the end, then glass it is.
so....thanks for the ideas in the last posts so far, i hope some more will come up


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Another option would be to provide a curtain of running water across the glass by using a spray bar. If you could control it to have a low and even flow it seems to be doable.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

The most feasible thing to do is to hire 24 hour security to shoo the frogs away from the front of the tank....


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## Bjcg (Jan 4, 2013)

Or maybe put sum of those sticky mouse traps and if frogs try to get away they will stick and then yu put back in?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

juanico said:


> first of all, i am happy, that this thread has become constructive.
> if i appear to be rude, sorry for that, it was not my intention.


Followed by:


RobR said:


> The most feasible thing to do is to hire 24 hour security to shoo the frogs away from the front of the tank....





Bjcg said:


> Or maybe put sum of those sticky mouse traps and if frogs try to get away they will stick and then yu put back in?


Really guys?

Back on topic, I personally do not think this will work out very well. The waterfall idea probably is the best idea, but it would have to be a very wide strip of water... as I've seen frogs jump several feet horizontally. Add some height to that and if they were to jump from high up on the side of the enclosure, their trajectory could easily take them out several more feet. Also, you would need to have backup power generation so the waterfalls never stopped running

The odds of this happening are slim, but in my opinion, any chance is not a chance worth taking.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

BTW, have you seen this viv? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/76723-big-woody-4.html

Looks pretty good even with the glass....


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

I could swear I saw an open front Dutch Poison Dart Frog vivarium in an old National Geographic magazine when I was a kid (maybe circa early '90s?). In fact, that article was the first time that I had been exposed to the fact that they ("PDF's") were/could be kept by amateur folks at all. Anyways, whatever the case, I have always wondered how the inhabitants of that tank stayed inside. (maybe they didn't, and the "technology" was phased out) Good luck! JVK


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

I apologize for my smart a** comment, but that seriously is the best solution I could think of. Not sure raging water fall fall with undertow is a better answer than mine.


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## Rasmus (Sep 13, 2011)

Judging by this paper Toe pad morphology and mechanisms of sticking in frogs - EMERSON - 2008 - Biological Journal of the Linnean Society - Wiley Online Library, the frogs would probably not be able to climb glass with a film of running water, as the climbing ability is based on wet adhesion and capillary forces. Generating such a film would not be overly difficult to do I think. It would help with humidity as well.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

Rasmus said:


> Judging by this paper Toe pad morphology and mechanisms of sticking in frogs - EMERSON - 2008 - Biological Journal of the Linnean Society - Wiley Online Library, the frogs would probably not be able to climb glass with a film of running water, as the climbing ability is based on wet adhesion and capillary forces. Generating such a film would not be overly difficult to do I think. It would help with humidity as well.


What if the pump quits or the power goes out?


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## Bjcg (Jan 4, 2013)

Solar panels And backup battery?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Okay, I am going to wade into this:

I understand that the OP wants to create a big, beautiful *open-front* exhibit--has been advised not to, for serious reasons:

--Humidity;
--Containment;
--Feeding. 

Let's deal with each of these, in turn:

Humidity: Actually, this is the easiest, if the OP is willing to dedicate a space to it, e.g., a basement or greenhouse. 

Containment and feeding: I shall deal with these as one. Even if you can maintain high humidity, you still need to think about size. PDFs are relatively small creatures, and for their care they should be monitored. I.e., where they are, how they are doing, is everyone getting enough food, has anyone laid eggs, etc. For PDFs, this seems quite problematic in this type of enclosure .

However, this can work for other types of herps, e.g.,

--smaller turtles;
--fish with aquatic frogs;
--bombina with newts;
--aquatic skinks.

In a humid greenhouse, I would just use a shorter glass barrier in the front, with a teflon or inward sloping rim. But what if the whole aesthetic goal is to be completely open-front? If so, you are simply going to have to think in terms of larger, more "durable" animals. Potted plants and trees around the water area would create the motif of a smaller jungle pond in a clearing. 

For myself, I have successfully maintained larger lizards, hylids, rhacophorids in sunny rooms with potted trees and linoleum floors (Although my White's--one of whom some you met at the last NYC frog day--had the propensity to find their way to the bathroom to sit on the soapdish. He will be 15 next month...) 

Many people keep arboreal lizards, day geckos, frogs in greenhouses with pools. But this can work easier for big Litoria or Polypedates, than say, Dendrosophus or Hyperolius! I mean, not to be hostile--but what if, by chance, one of the little guys gets out--in a nice, humid room--but you accidentally step on it?!? Ever hear of the square-cube law (i.e, volume increases faster than surface area)? What if something breaks down while you're not home? These guys will desiccate or overheat much faster than a larger, more durable animal.

You want animals with an open-fronted pond? Ever see these hydrosaurs?

Hydrosaurus - YouTube

There's yer open-fronted pond--and animals appropriate to such a set up. Yes, one could throw a bunch of leucs or terriblis in such an enclosure, but how the hell would you monitor them?

Now, I could definitely see someone doing say, Acanthosaura with Polypedates, Lophognathus with big Litoria, maybe Basiliscus with Leptodactylus... 

I could even see one changing the orientation, and building a 8' X 8' X 4' (high) pen, open on top--that gets it light from an overhead atrium or powerful metal halides. Line the top with teflon, or an inward sloping rim, throw in some PDFs. But I would not be surprised if somehow, someway, someone found a way out! As previous posters have stated, these are small, athletic, sticky creatures--they will find a way. 

And unlike Bruce (the Litoria) you do not want them on your soap dish...

Please consider what we are trying to explain. We are not just reflexively giving you a hard time.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Addendum: I posted this paludarium from the 2012 Planted Tank Competition over in the Lounge. As you can see, it is "open air:" (Just make sure to watch until at least 1:15 

Creeperland (my paludarium) - YouTube



Yes, there are herps I would certainly consider for something like this, with a couple of modifications. But definitely not PDFs!


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

jkooiman said:


> I could swear I saw an open front Dutch Poison Dart Frog vivarium in an old National Geographic magazine when I was a kid (maybe circa early '90s?). In fact, that article was the first time that I had been exposed to the fact that they ("PDF's") were/could be kept by amateur folks at all. Anyways, whatever the case, I have always wondered how the inhabitants of that tank stayed inside. (maybe they didn't, and the "technology" was phased out) Good luck! JVK


May 1995--I have the magazine and keep it in my office. It did have a glass front and could be closed it's just that the guy had the glass off the front for the photo shoot. It has a track for the glass that you can see at the bottom. This article is what got me interested and I had my first tank built from this design.


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

Groundhog said:


> Addendum: I posted this paludarium from the 2012 Planted Tank Competition over in the Lounge. As you can see, it is "open air:" (Just make sure to watch until at least 1:15
> 
> Creeperland (my paludarium) - YouTube
> 
> ...


Wow! What a surprise to see the bird splashing around in the tank! My guess--just a visitor.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

TDK said:


> Wow! What a surprise to see the bird splashing around in the tank! My guess--just a visitor.


HAHA i totally wasn't expecting that when I was watching it 

To the OP:
Maybe giving us some more information might help find a solution to your goal. Why does the front have to be open? Does it have to be open 24/7? Could you do with something like the exo-terra vivs that have doors that swing open, leaving the front completely open? That way you could have the viv open when you want it, and closed when you're not there (or watching for escapees).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Some of these suggestions baffle me. Raging waterfalls and a very fast moving stream? Sure, it might keep the frogs in...by sweeping them to their death. Yes, dart frogs can swim, but not very well. They have no webbed feet. Getting caught in the twin waterfalls would likely crush them to death on the bottom. If not, I sincerely doubt their ability to escape the undertow. If, by some miracle, they were able to escape the undertow, how would they escape the very fast moving river? By necessity, this river would not have a calm area. That would defeat said purpose, as the frogs could simply swim across the calm area. 
How would you address the frogs getting sucked up against the pump intake? There will be no traditional sump. A viv this big would sit on the floor. I suppose you could have a sump in the basement, and rather large pumps to pump it back up.

A constantly flowing film of water over all of the three sides of the viv? The proposed solution to the weak point here, was solar power and battery back up. Have you taken into account what that would entail? You are still moving a lot of water on a viv this big. So again, to make this work you are looking at a large sump located downstairs. Large pumps to keep it moving. Anywhere in the world, it is very possible to lose power for even a couple of days. It takes a rather large batteries to provide any amount of back up power for a typical home computer. You are going to need a LOT of batteries to provide power to run these huge pumps for possibly a couple of days. When are you likely to lose power for a couple of days? My thought would be during a storm, when solar power cannot be relied on.
Now for both of these scenarios you cannot have the pumps stop, ever, or frogs can escape. So you are looking at twice as many pumps and twice the plumbing, plus some kind of computer control to instantly turn the second pump on *WHEN* the first pump fails. Every pump must fail eventually. Of course this system redundancy will not do a thing if the seal on the pump fails. You would also need an alarm system to warn you that the first pump had failed. Because it must be automatic to prevent any interruption of the water flow, you won't know that the first pump failed. If you don't fix it quickly, and the second pump fails, your frogs will escape. 
For the constant film of water that was proposed, you will also be required to make this a full walk in viv because you must constantly be trimming plants. As soon as a plant touches the wall, it makes another path for the water to flow. The water in that area can follow down the plant's stem now, instead of down that spot of the wall. So constant trimming and a safe perimeter around the inside of the walls becomes extremely important.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

I'm with Doug--isn't this all more work than it's worth? It is as if everything has to go perfectly for it to (conceivably) work. There's an old term for this--"Rube Goldberg."

Again, I am not averse to the concept of an open paludarium in a humid space (e.g., a greenhouse). But not for PDFs!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

TDK said:


> Wow! What a surprise to see the bird splashing around in the tank! My guess--just a visitor.


Oh, of course--the tank is probably situated in a larger glasshouse or greenhouse. Yet, in a bizarre way, canaries actually make more sense than PDFs!

Not that I would recommend birds (high metabolism, possible pathogen tranfer, potential damage, etc.) But again, there are a few herps--reptiles and amphibians--that I could see in this type of set up before PDFs!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

hypostatic said:


> HAHA i totally wasn't expecting that when I was watching it
> 
> To the OP:
> Maybe giving us some more information might help find a solution to your goal. Why does the front have to be open? Does it have to be open 24/7? Could you do with something like the exo-terra vivs that have doors that swing open, leaving the front completely open? That way you could have the viv open when you want it, and closed when you're not there (or watching for escapees).


Hypo, you are making way too much sense..


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

It's quite obvious what you need. A forcefield.


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

Why don you just invest in a really nice front window, made of that ultra clear starphire glass. I think with enough thought and consideration your viv could be just as nice and visible as an open front with a waterfall death force-field to repel the frogs. (and a lot less ridiculous too).
good luck.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Guys: I'm really into tetras. What do you think of my idea for a three-sided aquarium with __________





(I can't even continue the jest...)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I've thought about doing the same thing...

The way i'd probably do it is similar to this turtle tank...









Only I would do a glass top, I'd have a mount for at least 1-2 misting nozzles shooting into the tank and moat/pond at the front to help keep the humidity up. I'd don't think for me at least it would be worth trying in a tank with a smaller foot print then a 30 cube. You might be able to get away with it as a 20H/30gal or 40B turned into a vert style tank. 

The tricky part is keeping the frogs in. To do that I would put 1.5-2 inch lips (pieces of glass/acrylic at slight inward angles all around the open frame of the viv. Frogs can stick to/climb glass pretty well so you need these lips to prevent them from shuffling up/across the glass and over the edge out into the open. This wouldn't be to hard to make except for the corners, you'd have cut triangular sections, or put a piece to fit that slops inward but meets up with the other pieces sloping inward...hard to explain. Basically you want an inward sloping lip around the entire open part of the tank that the frogs will bump into and not be able to get around, including over the pond. 

A straight 90 degree lip might work too, but my gut says something angled would be more frog proof. Although at the front you might just be able to do a slightly sloping inward lip a 2-3 inches tall above the surface of the pond...at say a 15-40 degree angle that might be enough the frogs wouldn't be able to stick to it without falling off back into the pond.

Frogs can brace themselves between a corner and kinda walk up the 2 walls, like how you can put your feet and hands on the walls and suspend yourself in a hallway or in a corner. That is why I think the angled in lip is best...makes it harder for them to do that, then stick to the lip using their body moisture and shuffle sideways to get around it and out of the viv.

Here is a really crappy/crude drawing of sorta what I'm talking about...









Basically though you should be able to make it like any vert, or fron't opening tank but have a lip around every edge to keep the frogs in, preferably in a tank deep enough that it is unlikely a frog could jump from the pond edge, and clear the pond and end up on the carpet. That is why I think this is better suited to larger deeper front to back tanks, or perhaps a tank that is basically a planted wall with very little ground for smaller thumbs/pumillio. You need to figure that most darts can jump at least 1 foot (I've never really tested this some maybe others have better estimates) probably so the tank needs to be 1.5-2x+ as deep front to back as that...3x would be better. You could do it in a long tank like 30L/40b/55...and make it so the front viewing area is the skinny side, making what would normally be the front and back of the viv the sides, and one side being the actual back. Of course you'd have to cut the glass or some of it at least out of one end and not destroy the viv in the process. 

You also need to take into account the arc if they jumped from the top of the background straight out towards the front of the viv....from high enough the arc may be enough to get them over and out of the viv...a lip hanging down from the top glass would cut the height they'd be able to jump from decreasing the arc making it less likely they could get a high enough launching pad to launch them out of the viv.

This is a doable viv I think...just a bit of pain in the butt. Misting and being well planted, maybe a waterfall/drip wall on the back wall will cover the humidity. All that will help creat micro climates, and they just need a moist substrate or water feature to "recharge" their moisture and they can handle surprisingly low humdity


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Little bit better illustration of what I mean...but still quick and dirty with some missing or wrong angles...

Imagine that from the back of tank to the top red line is a glass top


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

And if you think there's a lot of flies crawling around now you're in for a shocker


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Dendro Dave said:


> Little bit better illustration of what I mean...but still quick and dirty with some missing or wrong angles...
> 
> Imagine that from the back of tank to the top red line is a glass top


Nice idea Dave, but I maintain that the open tank:

1) Could _work_ in glasshouse or greenhouse, insofar as the humidity would stay up;

2) Would _not work_ in a glasshouse or greenhouse, because of the real probability of escape.

Take your turtle enclosure--on a much larger scale (read higher walls). These are the kind of herps I would suggest, if the tank was in an already humid room, surrounded by foliage plants (potted aroids, palms, etc) I see two possibilities:

Scenario I:

--axolotls;*
--Occidozyga frogs with Hymenochirus and Vampire crabs;
--Bombina with Paramesotriton;
--Tylototriton with White Clouds (be aware, Emperor newts can and do climb--I have seen them chilling in epiphytes, where it's rather warm ;
--Tropidophorus (Water Skinks ) with Pachytriton;
--Diving Skinks?
--Crocodile lizards (Shinasaurus);*
--Smaller turtle species (e.g., Eastern painted, Spotted, Mud, Musk, Reeves, etc* 

* Fish not recommended

I would still line the top with an inward facing rim, or teflon, or vaseline or--but I would not be shocked if one day, there was an accident.

Scenario II

Because I have had success keeping these animals as free roamers (see avatar), I would try a semi-aquatic lizard or _Litoria infrafrenata_ and/or _Polypedates dennysii_. However, I would not be surprised if they spent most of their time on the foliage adjacent to the pond, and only used the pond for hydration. In that case, the hell with the tall sides, I would let the animals come and go. Believe me, it would take them about 20 minutes to recognize the source of moving water. (Man, it is so much easier when you have pets whose proclivities are to sit on things, rather than under them  )

This is similar to the Hydrosaurus video I posted earlier.

But I take it this not what the OP had in mind; the original goal was/is for the denizens to stay in their enclosure. In that case, go with scenario I, and spice it up with some suitable fish. 

But--this--is--not--for--PDFs...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Groundhog said:


> Nice idea Dave, but I maintain that the open tank:
> 
> 1) Could _work_ in glasshouse or greenhouse, insofar as the humidity would stay up;
> 
> ...


There are other animals certainly more suitable or at least easier to build a setup like this for and not have escapes or humidity concerns but I maintain this is completely doable for darts.

I don't even think the humidity is a real issue unless you live in a very dry climate. With 3 sides and being well planted that is going to create a more humid micro climate in that space, unless you have a fan or your heating/AC unit blowing near the tank. Within the tank itself the micro climate will be even more humid at the floor, corners and in/between pockets of plants.

You could put live plants in a completely dry viv and they will raise the ambient humidity...moisten the soil and that effect is increased substantially...add front pond or moat around 3 sides, even more... a waterfall, even more...add a mister to mist a couple times a day, even more...heck throw a fogger into the mix. You can easily create a suitable micro climate in an open front tank. Even all screen cham cages will have higher humidity then ambient room if they have a decent amount of live plants in there.

I stole this image from Robr's thread, but a viv like this with the angled piece removed and angled lips of 1.5-3 inches installed around the edges would probably work...I'd probably want the tank itself wider to compensate for space the lips take up in the opening.









Having a custom tank with _at least _the front/back depth of a 40b or 75gal made for this purpose would probably be the best way...but expensive.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Dave,

Maintaining high humidity may be trickier than one might think. I know that my big planted tanks--half screen on top--maintain much better humidity in the warmer months. (Should I try a cool air humidifier near the tanks?)

My man Michael Riley (of Ecuagenera) has an epiphyte living room--his walls lined with cork bark with lights and misters on timers. South and east exposures. Tile floors. Built-in pond. Central A/C. Several trees in the room. Still not enough humidity to grow to epiphytes on the trees--only on the walls. (Top photo first link is his living room)

Michael-riley | Eco Custom Home's Newsroom

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/ga...anted=all&_r=0

Click on "Slide Show" 

Yes, I constantly bust his balls about, "Where are the herps?!?" Having said that, I believe your system can work. But an open system will not be that easy to humidify.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Groundhog said:


> Dave,
> 
> Maintaining high humidity may be trickier than one might think. I know that my big planted tanks--half screen on top--maintain much better humidity in the warmer months. (Should I try a cool air humidifier near the tanks?)
> 
> ...


Link didn't work for me, but I'm familiar with living walls assuming you mean something like this?...









My guess is if that had a mist system hitting that a few times a day and you could some how get the frog to stay on the wall...it would do just fine. Frogs live within the first inch of atmosphere above the ground, against the background, around plants etc... This is right where the evaporation/humidity/plant respiration is highest, and their bodies are in contact with the moist substrate much of the time, and pums/thumbs will slide down into water filled broms, other frogs into ponds, edges of waterfalls etc... this essentially recharges their moisture levels. Its like thermoregulation...only hydroregulation.

You drop a dart on your dry carpet it will last a few hours...sit that same dart on wet carpet or moist mossy/leaf litter floor and it will probably last days at least assuming the carpet or substrate stays moist. I've seen temperate bull frogs and leopard frogs who's only source of water dried up months ago during a summer drought survive by staying in tall grass/undergrowth with super dry air and temps over 100 degrees for more then a month straight.

I assume they sucked up the dew in the mornings and that got them through till the evening...and they were a temperate species but still a moist skinned frog...not like a dry skinned toad. I was impressed by the little boogers... surprised the hell out of me when I walked through the woods and all these dang frogs that used to live by the creek that dried up months ago started springing everywhere out of the undergrowth 100 yards away from the old dried up creek bed.

There still seems to be this mindset that darts need constant 80% + humidity all the time...and I don't think many people grasp micro climates very well. The world 1 inch above the soil/off the background is a substantially different world then the one 6 inches away....but the frog lives in the first inch...and is in contact with that moist substrate. I've had vivs with partial screen tops go months without misting...as long as the substrate was moist, a little water in the false bottom to keep it that way...the frogs were out and happy. They might chill out mid day in hiding spot but morning and evenings they were out with occasional forages during mid day. 

There are certainly challenges, I agree...I just think escapes are the bigger one rather then humidity...If I haven't convinced you by now we'll probably just have to agree to disagree or hold off judgment till someone has the balls/money to to make one. I'd do it if I wasn't poor 

On a side note I've seriously considered doing the walls of my bedroom and/or living room in my mobile home with some kind of living wall setup lol....hell I've even considered putting down a pond liner in my spare bedroom, maybe drain in the floor and hanging several shop lights up and filling the space with irrigation/mister and plants and setting some darts and geckos loose...make a little stone path through it, maybe a bench, waterfall and a glass door instead of the wood one. My own little slice of heaven....sux that dreams cost so much money


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I have seen quite a few people saying frogs require constantly high humidities. Ed has commented on this before saying that frogs can do just with with lower humidity in certain situations. 

The following was taken from a thread titled, "Humidity Difficulties."

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/780086-post7.html

Personally, I think it may be possible to do what you are describing. However, I think all of the contingencies that would be necessary would be cost prohibitive and difficult to maintain. 

I believe something could be designed to accomplish your goal. I wouldn't have the first clue where to begin, and I wouldn't want to take the risk. 

Good luck.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

LizardLicker said:


> I have seen quite a few people saying frogs require constantly high humidities. Ed has commented on this before saying that frogs can do just with with lower humidity in certain situations.
> 
> The following was taken from a thread titled, "Humidity Difficulties."
> 
> ...


ya, humidity is important but these guys just aren't as fragile is many seem to think...took me a few years to figure that out...you get lazy, don't mist etc...etc..and realize it's been 6mo and your frogs are fine and even breeding with froglets morphing out in the tank.

I think one of the biggest concerns with a tank like this is front to back depth...the lips should stop frogs from climbing/shuffling around corners and out of the tank but even a thumbnail frog that has a ledge or something to jump from a foot off the ground can probably clear 1.5-2+ feet of distance especially on a downward arc...

You also need the top glass to cut the peak of the arc off...basically you want them to hit their head and drop to the floor/pond instead of hitting the peak of that arc for maximum distance.

So you need a tank with a high front wall like that odd viv from Robr I posted...or a really deep tank so they can't clear the distance. I'm not even sure a 75 gallon would work, unless you turned it length wise so the skinny side was your front....maybe in the typical horizontal config if the actual land area was no more then a 6-8 inch strip running the length of the viv...I think more then that and most darts would have decent chance of clearing the distance. For shallower tanks a living wall type setup and thumbs/pums would probably be best...where they aren't going to care about a floor much, and are to small to jump the back to front distance.

Its a doable concept IMO, but to customize the tank adequately would be a pain and/or expensive.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Hey Dave:

Actually Dave, I did not mean one of those "green walls." Attached is Michael's living ROOM. This link should also work:

Michael-riley | Eco Custom Home's Newsroom

Here is how he did it (Six windows, E & S exposures): 

1) Tore down his walls, replaced with exterior wall. Then actually covered the entire living room in cork bark (yes, it cost a small fortune);
2) Tile floors;
3) In ground pool;
4) Central A/C;
5) Additional HID lighting;
6) Misting heads on timers;
7) Several potted trees and shrubs.

The point I was trying to make is that he can grow several epiphytes (ferns, broms, aroids, orchids, gesneriads, etc on his walls. But he cannot grow epiphytes on the plants in the middle of the room--even the plants overhanging the pool. Sounds counter-intuitive, but the humidity does dissipate. I have been in this room countless times, and I assure you it feels quite humid. But it simply did not/does not work quite the way many of us thought it would--there are "dry" spots. 

I understand that PDFs do not "need" saturated air. But they are small frogs, and they can desiccate in normal room humidity. And in a room this size with all this equipment, there are drier spots. I have seen tree frogs mummify in 24-36 hours in "normal" rooms. When I let my big frogs free roam, it worked because they quickly learned their water pans (they also eventually learned to get into the toilet bowl But I really believe it comes down to square/cube law--with bigger frogs, one has more wiggle room. But I would be fearful with frogs the size of PDFs.

(Oh, in my experience, I find Litoria and Polypedates to be creatures of habit. They may roam at night, but they do regularly return to their favorite broad-leaf couches. Which is why I keep annoying Michael to throw a couple of arboreal lizards and big frogs in there! My call: water dragons and Polypedates would rock...)


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Addendum--these should open full size! 

What kind of herps would live in your living room?


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## Bjcg (Jan 4, 2013)

This might work 










The mice need to face the other way, bit yu get the idea


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Bjcg said:


> This might work
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it any better myself


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Groundhog said:


> Hey Dave:
> 
> Actually Dave, I did not mean one of those "green walls." Attached is Michael's living ROOM. This link should also work:
> 
> ...


Ya that is similar, but quite a bit different also from the greenwalls I've seen. Really cool...I've thought about something like that, only using cocomat material or treefern...way to much money for me though. Does that guy do that for a living? If so he needs to hire me  Would be cool to setup some foggers and storm system with sound loop and strobe and plasma luming glass lightning with something like that.

You make valid points, it is just that like you said it does dissipate, but there is that micro climate in the first couple of inches above a moist substrate/background and plants...and a tank only missing less then 1 side will still hold humidity in those micro climate areas. If he planted plants in the first 6 inches above the pool they might do ok...but ya the ones up any higher then that probably won't without some kinda help from misters/foggers etc...


Could make it all with wondering Jew...I ripped that stuff out of a viv and threw it on a work area table and a month later it was still alive


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I hope this isn't dragging up a super old thread but I came across this reading about starphire glass.

I am a bit dissapointed in everyone for jumping on him the way they did. 

I think the pumps would be appropriate and not much water would be needed. an open air tank with an island in the middle and spray bar type setup sending sheets of water down the glass walls would be a pretty good deterrent. Said setup would also be FF proof. The current could simply be made to sweep frogs towards the land area should they venture in. I think the risk would be present but minimal. What I'd invision would be the pumps drawing water from under the island's false bottom. you could then have a single bulkhead hole on one side for the outflow which would then cover the perimeter of the tank. 

If power went out-frogs could be captured and placed in a temporary tank. They are unlikely to immediately make a break for it. This tank would have better redundancy than most aquariums where you are @[email protected]% if the pumps go out. A backup generator is good for those situations but overkill for this. 

I agree with Groundhog that Dendrobatid frogs are not a good pick for this sort of setup-but I believe they could be contained. I'd also suggest Bombina


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

When I first came to this forum this thread was hot. I was new so I didn't say anything. I kind of agree, people just slammed the guy right away and said it was impossible. Sure anything can happen but one has to consider the chances. The often posted pictures of the frog farm in Costa Rica show that the O. pumilio are only held in by a shelf system. 

People seemed to focus on the most unlikely events as a big problem. I mean its sort of like saying your kids should never be allowed to play outside in the backyard because a crazy driver might drive off the road all the way around your house into your backyard and run them over. Ya, sure that could happen. But would we change our behavior based on that slim chance? See there is chance of anything or anyone doing anything and losing their life every moment but some risks are calculated and acceptable. 

How come no one here ever slams on all the people who keep dart frogs without air conditioning? We have seen posts with people who killed frogs several times because they couldn't keep their house, warm enough or cool enough to save them. Is that not also irresponsible and reckless indifference to frog life? 

I think any system could have been tested, and it would have been interesting to see if he could get it working.


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## joddyjeremy (Sep 15, 2013)

What about some kind of mesh that you can roll down at night, when the frogs are most likely active, and then you can roll it back up?
You can also roll it down when youre away for quite some time
Just my opinions though, cheers


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## theroc1217 (Jun 5, 2012)

Dendrobait said:


> I hope this isn't dragging up a super old thread but I came across this reading about starphire glass.
> 
> I am a bit dissapointed in everyone for jumping on him the way they did.
> 
> ...


When the power goes out you can simply close up the front of the tank, either with glass or a mesh wrap or anything. Also, that picture of the glass shaped like a Γ' is meant to be on the bottom of the tank, as a cross section of the front lip. If the frogs climb up and onto the ceiling of it, there is a wall preventing them from crawling all the way around. You can do a similar formation on the walls and ceiling to prevent them from getting out unless they jump more than a set number of inches. 

This is all very doable.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

theroc1217 said:


> When the power goes out you can simply close up the front of the tank, either with glass or a mesh wrap or anything. Also, that picture of the glass shaped like a Γ' is meant to be on the bottom of the tank, as a cross section of the front lip. If the frogs climb up and onto the ceiling of it, there is a wall preventing them from crawling all the way around. You can do a similar formation on the walls and ceiling to prevent them from getting out unless they jump more than a set number of inches.
> 
> 
> 
> This is all very doable.



What happens if the power goes out when you're not home?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> What happens if the power goes out when you're not home?


Stuff.......Junk.....maybe more...

IMO, I think this tank could be a feasible idea, but I would be constantly worried. Power outages could be possibly be handled through the use of removable panels made of your material of choice. I would put the panels into place at any time that I would not be in the immediate vicinity. Another solution that could be used is a backup generator or even solar power.

John


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

An alarm system to alert for power outages would be all you would need IMO. Again the frogs are not going to immediately make a break for it-most darts would much rather stay on the island...they are not itching to immediately swim across the water barrier, scale the slick glass and overhang and make a break for it. It could happen, but I think it is a rather unlikely occurrence.

I guess the room they are kept in could be kept clutter free and have a few water dishes around.


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