# Flourite/Florabase For Drainage



## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

I read through some of the other threads and it didn't seem totally clear to me whether or not Flourite or Florabase can be used as a drainage layer? I like the appearance and fertility of both, but since i'm not an avid aquarist, i've never used either. Seporatly, I'm also building a planted semi-aquatic tank that i'm planning on using some of either one of these for sure... so i WILL have extra.

I'm using a false bottom and a clay based substrate. My viv will have a slight pool of water and i'd like to have a semi-aquatic plant or so planted in it. Since i don't want to use Hydroton/LECA, would this be a bad choice compared to a plain gravel.

Finally, i don't know if it makes any difference, but this viv is being built for Imitator darts.

Thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Usually you use a false bottom OR hydroton/LECA. If you have a false bottom already, why do you need LECA or gravel? Just go straight to the substrate.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Just re-read post. So the gravel is so you can run the water even deeper, for a pond. I get it.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I know a couple of people who are having _great_ success with their darts using flourite as the only form of substrate. That being said, they do have false bottoms underneath their flourite. I would _not_ use flourite as a drainage layer, but I have a feeling the next tank I build will have a strictly flourite based substrate just to test it out and see how it works....

If you're using a false bottom I say go for the flourite. It drains well, it provides a lot of surface area for microfauna, aquatic plants love it (which is good if you're going to have a pond since aquatic plants will help keep the water clean) and from what I hear (although this part is merely word-of-mouth) terrestrial viv plants get along with it quite nicely.


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm using flourite in one of my tanks and in grow out containers. I always see springtails around. All the plants seem to be doing great so far. It's been running for a few months. I have a false bottom, about 2in of flourite and then a heavy and thick layer of leaf litter.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

An alternative that also gives great plant growth for a fraction of the price is Infield Conditioner. It is a partially fired clay product that you can get for around $15 for 50 lbs. It is also very light. It works great instead of gravel and is much lighter... Search the forums for Infield conditioner. 

Ed


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## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

thanks for the replies! Let me maybe clear up some stuff about the my false bottom. My false bottom, which is covered on all sides with landscape fabric, is about 3" high and takes up maybe 90% of the bottom of the vert 20H except where it is angled at the front left so that i can taper the drainage layer down to the bottom of the tank so that there is a little pond. I deliberately built it so that there is about 3/4" around the false bottom on all sides for a drainage layer basically so that the false bottom isn't visible and so that plants that like deep roots can have it there way along the edge. I plan to cover the false bottom in a VERY thin layer of whatever drainage material i choose. Pictures being worth 1000 words, maybe i'll post one soon, but i think until then it's pretty clear.

So, from you guys, florabase/flourite/infield conditioner is totally compatible with dart frogs which is great, but does it drain well enough to be used in the way that i want to use it? Will water drain through leaf little/moss, through clay substrate, through a layer of flourite and into the false bottom? Or would gravel just work better? I want whats best for the plants, frogs, and microfauna so it seems like this might be a good choice. 

What do you think?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ProjectPurity said:


> and so that plants that like deep roots can have it there way along the edge.


PLants that like it that way will likely grow roots right through your landscape fabric (which isn't an issue).

To be clear, your false bottom is your drainage layer. Whatever goes on top of that is your substrate. It's not an issue to hide you false bottom the way you want, but what you hide it with is still a substrate.

I know people who use straight coco fiber as a substrate that drains just fine into the false bottom. Will flourite or caly drain? I think you could say that.... But I think it's probably a bad idea to use straight gravel as a substrate.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ProjectPurity said:


> thanks for the replies! Let me maybe clear up some stuff about the my false bottom. My false bottom, which is covered on all sides with landscape fabric, is about 3" high and takes up maybe 90% of the bottom of the vert 20H except where it is angled at the front left so that i can taper the drainage layer down to the bottom of the tank so that there is a little pond. I deliberately built it so that there is about 3/4" around the false bottom on all sides for a drainage layer basically so that the false bottom isn't visible and so that plants that like deep roots can have it there way along the edge. I plan to cover the false bottom in a VERY thin layer of whatever drainage material i choose. Pictures being worth 1000 words, maybe i'll post one soon, but i think until then it's pretty clear.
> 
> So, from you guys, florabase/flourite/infield conditioner is totally compatible with dart frogs which is great, but does it drain well enough to be used in the way that i want to use it? Will water drain through leaf little/moss, through clay substrate, through a layer of flourite and into the false bottom? Or would gravel just work better? I want whats best for the plants, frogs, and microfauna so it seems like this might be a good choice.
> 
> What do you think?


Whether or not any of them drain well enough is going to be determined to some extent by whether or not the water ends up in contact with materials that are going to wick it upwards. At this point, regardless of the substrate I use in the enclosure, I try to keep an air gap between the bottom of the false bottom and the top of any water that sits in the bottom of the tank. 

I have had neogelia bromeliads send roots completely through a clay substrate and into the water layer of the false bottom. 

Ed


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## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

air gap... agreed. That definitely eliminates the wicking effect. Also, i understand that the false bottom IS the drainage layer, however with a clay based substrate, do i want to just pile that right on top of the landscape fabric? I was under the impression that i should have some amount of a gravel under it even with a false bottom to keep it away from the landscape fabric and from coming into contact with the water if it gets to the top of the false bottom. Am i wrong here? Is it totally fine to just through the clay based substrate on top of the false bottom? Is there anything wrong with just covering the false bottom with 1/2" Flourite/Florabase and then a layer of landscape fabric, followed by clay substrate and leaf litter/moss?

Thanks again


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ProjectPurity said:


> air gap... agreed. That definitely eliminates the wicking effect. Also, i understand that the false bottom IS the drainage layer, however with a clay based substrate, do i want to just pile that right on top of the landscape fabric? I was under the impression that i should have some amount of a gravel under it even with a false bottom to keep it away from the landscape fabric and from coming into contact with the water if it gets to the top of the false bottom. Am i wrong here? Is it totally fine to just through the clay based substrate on top of the false bottom? Is there anything wrong with just covering the false bottom with 1/2" Flourite/Florabase and then a layer of landscape fabric, followed by clay substrate and leaf litter/moss?
> 
> Thanks again


If you were to put gravel/clay/flourite underneath the false bottom then what would be the point in having a false bottom to begin with? Why would you put landscaping fabric on top of your substrate?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ProjectPurity said:


> air gap... agreed. That definitely eliminates the wicking effect. Also, i understand that the false bottom IS the drainage layer, however with a clay based substrate, do i want to just pile that right on top of the landscape fabric? I was under the impression that i should have some amount of a gravel under it even with a false bottom to keep it away from the landscape fabric and from coming into contact with the water if it gets to the top of the false bottom. Am i wrong here? Is it totally fine to just through the clay based substrate on top of the false bottom? Is there anything wrong with just covering the false bottom with 1/2" Flourite/Florabase and then a layer of landscape fabric, followed by clay substrate and leaf litter/moss?
> 
> Thanks again


You can place the clay directly onto the landscape fabric ontop of the egg crating over the air gap. If you have mixed your clay properly so it is acting more like an aggregate than a solid clay mass, it should drain just fine. If you have simply added water to the clay, it may not drain as well. 

Ed


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## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

> If you were to put gravel/clay/flourite underneath the false bottom then what would be the point in having a false bottom to begin with? Why would you put landscaping fabric on top of your substrate?


It seems like there's almost a comical misunderstanding of what i'm saying. I totally understand your confusion if you thought i'd be putting gravel beneath the false bottom... that would be stupid and pointless. I'm instead talking about constructing a false bottom setup that is surrounded in drainage material... very similar to this one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58175-grimms-twin-build.html

The exception being that i thought it would be necessary to cover over the weed fabric with a layer of gravel so that it would provide a buffer between the clay substrate and the FB for better drainage and longer life of the weed fabric.



> You can place the clay directly onto the landscape fabric ontop of the egg crating over the air gap. If you have mixed your clay properly so it is acting more like an aggregate than a solid clay mass, it should drain just fine. If you have simply added water to the clay, it may not drain as well.


I'm planning on following the recipe in the ultimate clay substrate thread (the one that involves kitty litter, kaolinite, red oxide, yellow oxide, etc), however from the pictures that i've seen, several months later, the substrate aggregate seems to dissolve a little bit, which is why i was looking to provide a "pre-drainage" layer by using some of the flourite/florabase. I felt that it would also give the roots something to grab into and take on more nutrients if they wanted it as opposed to just a couple inches of clay substrate.

Will putting a layer of flourite/florabase/infield conditioner down on top of the weed fabric, but under the substrate hurt anything? Will it be totally useless? Will it improve drainage at all? I'm just looking for information, i'm not trying to make a point here or advocate for doing something one way or another because i have little experience with using these materials, but my logic seems to be in the right direction to me, so let me know if i'm out in left field.

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ProjectPurity said:


> I'm planning on following the recipe in the ultimate clay substrate thread (the one that involves kitty litter, kaolinite, red oxide, yellow oxide, etc), however from the pictures that i've seen, several months later, the substrate aggregate seems to dissolve a little bit, which is why i was looking to provide a "pre-drainage" layer by using some of the flourite/florabase. I felt that it would also give the roots something to grab into and take on more nutrients if they wanted it as opposed to just a couple inches of clay substrate.
> 
> Will putting a layer of flourite/florabase/infield conditioner down on top of the weed fabric, but under the substrate hurt anything? Will it be totally useless? Will it improve drainage at all? I'm just looking for information, i'm not trying to make a point here or advocate for doing something one way or another because i have little experience with using these materials, but my logic seems to be in the right direction to me, so let me know if i'm out in left field.
> 
> Thanks


Adding an additional layer between the clay and the surface is going to counteract one of the reasons for the clay which is to increase the nutritional benefits to the frogs of consuming inverts with a small amount of the clay at the same time.. you can add other items to planting pockets to give the plants a head start but I haven't had any issues with plants growing in the clay.. (but that is my anecdotal experience). 

You can add an additional layer of what ever you want between the clay and the landscape fabric. As long as you keep an air gap (which Matt did not have), you shouldn't see the same clumping. 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ProjectPurity said:


> It seems like there's almost a comical misunderstanding of what i'm saying. I totally understand your confusion if you thought i'd be putting gravel beneath the false bottom... that would be stupid and pointless. I'm instead talking about constructing a false bottom setup that is surrounded in drainage material... very similar to this one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58175-grimms-twin-build.html
> 
> The exception being that i thought it would be necessary to cover over the weed fabric with a layer of gravel so that it would provide a buffer between the clay substrate and the FB for better drainage and longer life of the weed fabric.
> 
> ...


Basically anything that is going to be exposed to water needs to be completely fired or needs to be something that isn't going to dissolve. In your pond and the area that you put around your false bottom you're going to want gravel or flourite or something that will not dissolve. If you want you can put a layer of flourite and on top of that put your layer of clay but it's not necessary if you're going to have an air gap between your water level and your false bottom.


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## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

> Adding an additional layer between the clay and the surface is going to counteract one of the reasons for the clay which is to increase the nutritional benefits to the frogs of consuming inverts with a small amount of the clay at the same time.. you can add other items to planting pockets to give the plants a head start but I haven't had any issues with plants growing in the clay.. (but that is my anecdotal experience).


Agreed... which is why i was suggesting putting the flourite * between the clay and the weed fabric * NOT on top of the clay. If i was inquiring about that i would be suggesting the flourite as a substrate not a drainage material. I definitely understand the idea of frogs incidentally consuming a bit of clay (and thus calcium and other micronutrients) when they eat microfauna crawling around in the clay, and that the microfauna are consuming a bit of the clay while they eat stuff in the viv, making their bodies more calcium rich which the PDFs benefit from upon consuming them. 

But you bring up a good point, if i mixed the aggregate clay and flourite a little more right around plants, i wonder if they would experience a benefit. I don't think i'll try that though right away.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you read the response, I responded based on the way the discussion was seperated into paragraphs which made it look like you were considering an additional layer on-top of the clay. I answered what looked to be two seperate questions as there have been questions about plant growth in clay before this one... 

Ed


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## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

I know that i've read that plants do great when planted into clay substrate, and clay backgrounds as well, but has anyone done a writeup or a build journal that included the planting stage into the clay substrate. If there is one, i'd like to see it. Also, someone made mention of vivs being built which use flourite as the sole substrate.... are there pictures of that too posted here somewhere (the search feature doesn't always take you everywhere you need to go)?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

ProjectPurity said:


> I know that i've read that plants do great when planted into clay substrate, and clay backgrounds as well, but has anyone done a writeup or a build journal that included the planting stage into the clay substrate. If there is one, i'd like to see it. Also, someone made mention of vivs being built which use flourite as the sole substrate.... are there pictures of that too posted here somewhere (the search feature doesn't always take you everywhere you need to go)?


In the past little while the clay backgrounds have become increasingly popular. If I had to guess I'd bet that someone had cataloged their planting process, although I have yet to try the clay background myself and thus haven't had much of a need to spend loads of time researching them....

Like I said, there are those who use flourite as the soul substrate. I went to Seattle and visited someone who loves this method. Even took some pictures with my phone. However, I have this feeling that posting her vivariums would be against DB protocol (not to mention I wouldn't want to step on her toes like that) to post them on the board.


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## Natefank (Jun 10, 2010)

in my viv i used just flourite covered with Zilla jungle mix, its in a 20g Long with about 2" of flourite on one side sloping to just about 1/4" on the other side with a 2" deep pool, then covered it in the jungle mix. my plants are going nuts and i havent had an issue with the ground being too wet or the humidity being too high


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## ProjectPurity (Jun 26, 2010)

> ...then covered it in the jungle mix. my plants are going nuts and i havent had an issue with the ground being too wet or the humidity being too high


I'm glad to hear that! That's what i'm hoping for as well.



> Like I said, there are those who use flourite as the soul substrate.


And did they use that flourite just right on top of a false bottom, keeping an air gap or was there some other drainage layer beneath it?


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

I use a false bottom with flourite and leaf litter exclusively.

Here's how I do it:

False Bottom
PVC pipe and egg crate false bottom covered with fiberglass window screen to hold up substrate. 

Some of my tanks have drilled drains and others have a piece of .5 inch tube that is siliconed in place through the egg crate and screen so I can get a smaller tube into the false bottom to drain it. Either way, I leave an inch or so of airspace between the water and the egg crate.

Substrate
~2 inches of flourite topped with ~2 inches of leaf litter. 

Rooted plants are placed directly into the flourite (can be a bit difficult - just get them in and the plants with stabilize themselves). Make sure to wash as much dirt off of the roots as possible.


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