# Taron Langhover



## Taron

This thread is about me! I would like to hear what you think of me and i dont want anything held back. I would also like to know why! It is important to know why. Also stating at what point in time ie a date.

This is going to be a thread for the ages and perfect for the thunderdome.

I would also like to hear if you have a positive thought towards me.


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## angry gary

i had heard indirectly about your past dealings. it was never mentioned though that you were a kid then. which would have made my concept of you different. Vendor Feedback Removed - use the Vendor Feedback area please.

AG


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## SmackoftheGods

Scott (mods),

If a vendor offers a himself to a discussion like this, shouldn't that undermine the "no vendor feedback" rule at least a little? Maybe no "I want feedback left for me," but when he says "seriously, don't hold anything back," does that not change anything?


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## Scott

That's a fair point. I just enforce the rules as they are written though.

It would seem to me that Vendor Feedback would be pretty much the same thing (minus getting personal - it's not like we're stopping anyone from getting personal here, just no vendor feedback). 

s


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## Taron

this is true i dont want to know about my business i want to know about me.

I guess better words would be about me and not the company. Everyone knows i did horrible things ten years ago. Unfortunetly some people wont let it die and like to use other excuses to say negative things.

for example frog flipping.....of course i flip frogs but that doesnt mean i dont breed them as well. I would also like to mention it doesnt mean that i dont care. I didnt sell one frog for 6-7 years because i didnt deserve to. i did keep them and donated a lot of frogs locally. It also helped me to grow into a better person. This is why I started this thread! I want everyone to voice the good and bad and when it happened. I guess in order to do that fairly i will create a thread on fauna. I will post it tomorrow when i have time.

I would also like to thank everyone because even negative criticism helps me grow.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## frogface

Ok I'll bite.

Taron, most of what I knew of you was through BoI. You were pretty young then so I was willing to give you a chance. Then a dart frog noob bought frogs from you. As I recall, he got 2 tincs, a leuc, and an auratus. He states he was advised by you to house them together. Last we heard from him, all but the leuc was dead.

Granted his tank was not ideal for darts and he was not supplementing properly. However, as long as you are giving someone advice to keep 4 different frogs together, I think it wouldn't hurt to also mention supplements and how their tank needs to be set up.

Sorry, this situation just sits in my craw.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...auratus-dead-skinny-tinctorius-fell-over.html


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## JJhuang

I have dealt with Taron this past year. I have bought several frogs from him before knowing of his past ( I should have looked up him but i didn't at the time) I don't regret not doing so because if i had it would have for sure made me not want to purchase from him but i have met him in person and have talked to him online and not once have I ever felt like he was going to scam me. Just my opinion. I know the past does affects you but what you try to evolve from it, is what matters the most. 
-Jon

Ps Im quite passive and am not trying to get into this big argument or anything just putting my point of view out there.


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## SmackoftheGods

Scott said:


> That's a fair point. I just enforce the rules as they are written though.
> 
> It would seem to me that Vendor Feedback would be pretty much the same thing (minus getting personal - it's not like we're stopping anyone from getting personal here, just no vendor feedback).
> 
> s


That's fair....

My understanding in talking with some others (as I recall it was a mod), the moratorium on vendor feedback is for a few reasons. One is to avoid drama (let's face it, we've got enough drama on here without vendor feedback). Two is to protect those people who support the site and thus help to keep the site running (makes sense...). The third was the possibility of legal action for defamation.

My thought is: we've got so much drama on the board as it stands, what is one more thread? If things come out that paint Taron in a negative light... well... it's not like he can complain about it... he was kind of (literally) asking for it. And I'm pretty sure that under the circumstances, when a vendor becomes bold enough to say "Go ahead, don't hold back, if you think negative things about me then post them" then the legality issue is waived.... I might be wrong on that last one, but I don't think so....

*shrug*


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## Scott

I just work here Captain. 

s


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## SmackoftheGods

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> this is true i dont want to know about my business i want to know about me.
> 
> I guess better words would be about me and not the company. Everyone knows i did horrible things ten years ago. Unfortunetly some people wont let it die and like to use other excuses to say negative things.
> 
> for example frog flipping.....of course i flip frogs but that doesnt mean i dont breed them as well. I would also like to mention it doesnt mean that i dont care. I didnt sell one frog for 6-7 years because i didnt deserve to. i did keep them and donated a lot of frogs locally. It also helped me to grow into a better person. This is why I started this thread! I want everyone to voice the good and bad and when it happened. I guess in order to do that fairly i will create a thread on fauna. I will post it tomorrow when i have time.
> 
> I would also like to thank everyone because even negative criticism helps me grow.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Taron,

Almost all of the information I have about you is second hand. That doesn't give me a lot to form an opinion with. However, every second hand opinion I've heard, and thus the little information that I _do_ have to form an opinion, has been negative (makes sense to me... unless something is _really_ exceptional, people don't tend to accentuate the positive).

The one piece of first hand information I have is when I PM'd you about the slim possibility that, all things looking good, I might get some frogs from you I never heard anything back. Then I talked to a local about it and he reminded me that it was, indeed, your screen name that had come up in the past and I figured I'd cut my losses.

Here's what you've gotta understand. You may very well be a different person than the one you were when you did whatever horrible things you did.... But that doesn't change the fact that you did them. And it's not something people are likely to forget. The other thing is, people (most people) don't know _you_. They know your business. They know how you run it, how you treat your customers, so it's pretty unreasonable to ask people to make a distinction between you and your business when all of your posts and all of your transactions are representative of both you _and_ your business.

If you want some advice to help you "grow," here's mine. When you screw up in a major, and especially a public, way, it takes a long, long time for people to get over it. And after that, anyone you may have screwed, or were friends with people you may have screwed, or knew someone you may have screwed, will keep high tabs on you and will subject all of your actions and transactions to severe scrutiny. You're not going to overcome the negative opinions of other people by being a decent guy or running a decent business. You're going to overcome the negativity by providing service of an _incredibly_ high quality. You're going to provide fat (not obese), healthy, immaculate, disease free frogs (even wild caught frogs should be disease (parasite) free). You're going to make sure that sellers know exactly what you're planning on doing with their frogs (it doesn't matter whether or not flipping frogs is ethical, if you've screwed up in a significant way in the past, someone's going to find a way to put a negative spin on it unless you've gotten express permission from the seller to flip those frogs). You're going to provide hobbyists that you sell to with hobby sanctioned information (not the kind of information that frogface mentioned).

If you're able to do that, you're going to slowly win friends. If you're not then every minor screw up is going to get passed around (even without vendor feedback being sanctioned on the board) and... well... we've seen what has happened to frog businesses over the past year who _didn't_ have shady reputations....

Those are my thoughts.... I've actually enjoyed my time away from the Thunderdome over the past couple of months. So I think I shall take my leave once again.


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## SmackoftheGods

Scott said:


> I just work here Captain.
> 
> s


*shrug* you can't change the rules... I'm just ranting (I'm watching the Casey Anthony trials and becoming long winded and scrutinous... these lawyers are rubbing off on me).

Thank you for noticing. I love my signature.... Surprisingly (to me) it didn't cause _any_ uproar at all... alas :/


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## Scott

Well said Jake, very well said.

s


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## Paul G

SmackoftheGods said:


> *shrug* you can't change the rules... I'm just ranting (I'm watching the Casey Anthony trials and becoming long winded and scrutinous... these lawyers are rubbing off on me).


At least you don't live in the county that has to pay all the taxes for this circus. lol


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## mantisdragon91

From the dealings I've had with Taron he seems like a good enough guy, but some what overwhelmed with the volume of deals he is working on at times. The two experiences I have had have been as follows, on one he sent my tad order to some one else by mistake but did make it up to me. The other order was sent out without checking with me first and resulted in the death of a dozen milk frog tads that were travelling for three days before I could finally track them down. In his defence he has attempted to either refund me the money or send new tads, He has also mentioned to me that he is stopping shipping through USPS and is going with Fedex moving forward so that should improve tracking and delivery.

Please note in the interest of fairness none of us are perfect and losses can still occur despite our best intentions and efforts as has recently occurred to me when shipping a pumilio to someone in Florida.


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## markpulawski

Taron I have a question, recently you imported what were 2 different morphs but similar Tincs. You stated definatively even though geographically these were located closely to one another they were different morphs. You implied you had insight as to the geography of these frogs yet you have never been there, do you not think the exporter wanted to sell twice as many frogs by claiming they have 2 morphs? I am not saying they are not, but putting total trust in these guys that really only desire to make a buck can lead to some damaging misinformation. You will find many of the exporters will tell someone what they want to hear in an effort to maximize the number of animals they want to export.
I had gathered from what you stated about what you knew of the collection area that you had seen specifically what made these 2 morphs of frogs. Can you please elaborate on the info? Putting a statement in place that says "this is what the exporter told me but can not be verified, so take it for what it's worth" is a perfectly acceptable description based on what we have for most imports.
In my opinion High Yellow Cobalts (Southern Surinam) '10 & '11 import would have been the best descriptor of these frogs.


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## illinoisfrogs

I was reading through the BOI threads.........wow........I know it was a long time ago and everything, but wow.......

And is it just me, or is a decent command of the English language, including spelling and grammar, hard to find in much of the herp community?


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## chinoanoah

(A few months ago I spent a few hours one night googling your past  )

I'd like to see your breeding projects you say you have going on. Until then I wouldn't buy animals from you.


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## illinoisfrogs

chinoanoah said:


> (A few months ago I spent a few hours one night googling your past  )
> 
> I'd like to see your breeding projects you say you have going on. Until then I wouldn't buy animals from you.


I leave on vacation for a week and this gets no response? Interesting.....


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## Detrick105

I've never had any issusue's with Taron or his animals. There, now I pissed in the pot.


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## BOOSHIFIED

*disclaimer for Scott (mods) : he doesnt have a vendor feedback area*

Anyways after reading all these threads about you I and hoped that may e you were lost in your younger days. It seems as though that is not the case. I walked by your table and was quite impressed with all the frogs you had. 

I then met and sold a frog to someone who had dealt with you not more then six months ago. You claimed you sold him a pair. It was not. You claimed you had a guarantee. You did not honor it. I am not surprised. I had just hoped that I would be ableto come to my own conclusions but with your track record (that I includes recent transgressions) I cannot. 

I myself have been sold a "probable pair" from another DB member and I will never forget him. Why? Because even with limited noob knowledge I was able to figure out it was not a pair. Instead it was someone trying to pull some BS on me. This is why I feel connected to this particular case. 

While I don't wish any harm on anyone I do hope that noobs can see you for what you are. Being one of the few froggers that was at the RSS I am ashamed that you are the first person that most noobs will meet and trust. 

Drunken rampage over.


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## illinoisfrogs

I have never dealt with Taron personally, but I'm surprised anyone would start a thread wanting people to comment, and then provide no answer to direct questions, or post pics of the "breeding setups" that were referred to. I would think if you want people to think you've changed, you would work on your customer service. You started this thread, people ask questions, and you give no response. I too would like to see breeding setups, as it would go a long way towards building trust with the community, since you claim to also be a breeder.


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## chadfarmer

alright i dont know you at all i was going to buy some stuff from you, but when i made it to your table Is seen frogs in the tinyest containers i refused to buy any from you 

I went over to another vendor and bought stuff from them


I can leave the past in the past (people do make mistakes)


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## SmackoftheGods

BOOSHIFIED said:


> *disclaimer for Scott (mods) : he doesnt have a vendor feedback area*
> 
> Anyways after reading all these threads about you I and hoped that may e you were lost in your younger days. It seems as though that is not the case. I walked by your table and was quite impressed with all the frogs you had.
> 
> I then met and sold a frog to someone who had dealt with you not more then six months ago. You claimed you sold him a pair. It was not. You claimed you had a guarantee. You did not honor it. I am not surprised. I had just hoped that I would be ableto come to my own conclusions but with your track record (that I includes recent transgressions) I cannot.
> 
> I myself have been sold a "probable pair" from another DB member and I will never forget him. Why? Because even with limited noob knowledge I was able to figure out it was not a pair. Instead it was someone trying to pull some BS on me. This is why I feel connected to this particular case.
> 
> While I don't wish any harm on anyone I do hope that noobs can see you for what you are. Being one of the few froggers that was at the RSS I am ashamed that you are the first person that most noobs will meet and trust.
> 
> Drunken rampage over.


Unless someone is providing a guarantee I don't know that getting upset about gettin gthe same sex frogs is worth getting upset about. *shrug* people make mistakes. Even some of the Frog Gods have sent me frogs they said were _probably_ some such sex and were not.

But like I said, if there _really_ was a guarantee on the sexes of the frogs then that's something to complain about.

I know that once I sent out a very probably female frog that ended up calling.... Even though I told the buyer I wasn't willing to absolutely guarantee the sex I still refunded 1/3 of the payment for that particular frog.... Still, I think in most cases (especially when dealing with a vendor, rather than a hobbyist) that's closer to "above and beyond" than par for the course. I know I never expect any money back should a frog show up incorrectly sex (unless... again... there was a guarantee on them).


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## BOOSHIFIED

I see no problems with honest mistakes. 

Perhaps i went a little overboard against Taron (alcohol def played a role there) but the story that I was told was that there was a guarantee and nothing came of his guarantee. 

Now with my story that followed (not about Taron) I am convinced the guy did it just to move the frogs. The species is one of the easiest to sex and even as a noob I was able to figure it out with minimal research.


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## Enlightened Rogue

I do find it interesting he hasn`t replied in nearly a month.

John


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## JJhuang

chadfarmer said:


> alright i dont know you at all i was going to buy some stuff from you, but when i made it to your table Is seen frogs in the tinyest containers i refused to buy any from you


It is normal to keep froglets in salsa cups especially baby mantellas 
But I can see the alarm because I was the same when i first saw frogs in salsa cups.


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## chadfarmer

JJhuang said:


> It is normal to keep froglets in salsa cups especially baby mantellas
> But I can see the alarm because I was the same when i first saw frogs in salsa cups.


if it is that no one will ever get money money that does that no matter how bad i want the frogs


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## Azurel

chad farmer said:


> if it is that no one will ever get money money that does that no matter how bad i want the frogs


Common practice at swaps and events much easier and less stress to have them single in a cup then a bunch of differant frogs in a 10g stressing each other out. They also get mailed in something similar. Nothing to get concerned over really. Once you get them home open place in QT container or what ever....


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## chadfarmer

Azurel said:


> Common practice at swaps and events much easier and less stress to have them single in a cup then a bunch of differant frogs in a 10g stressing each other out. They also get mailed in something similar. Nothing to get concerned over really. Once you get them home open place in QT container or what ever....


i understand the cups

but in a container that is about 1/4 inch bigger than them I dont like


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## Hopkins

I guess you are never going to get frogs shipped then. Its pretty common to ship frogs in condiment cups.


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## JJhuang

Even though I have only been in the hobby for about a year a half I have shipped over 40+ frogs that way with only 1 causality. I have sold over 80+ frog the same way so it should more be like Good Luck finding someone who sells them in something else or someone who is willing to ship a 64 quart container.


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## chadfarmer

they were cups that were about the same size as the frogs


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## chadfarmer

like something that they would put extra sauce in from as fast food restaurant


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## dom

Ya man we get the hint, and everyone here knows what they look like and what vendors use to display frogs at shows and for shipping... They are not permanent enclosures. back to the OP..

dont know you, never talked to you. I have heard lots of bad things, not much good. I would say by the looks of it, you just shoved a giant boot in your mouth by starting yet another thread for people to bash you. Not smart


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## Tony

chadfarmer said:


> like something that they would put extra sauce in from as fast food restaurant


There is nothing wrong with that. I ship small tree frogs in those all the time, and restricting movement during transport and shipping is actually one of the better ways to prevent very nervous or active frogs from hurting themselves in the process.


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## Brotherly Monkey




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## chinoanoah

Brotherly Monkey said:


> YouTube - ‪Cat gets caught barking by a human and resumes meowing‬‏


I won't be able to sleep tonight.


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## BOOSHIFIED

Creeeeepy

But to go with what has already been said. The small cups actually help because they restrict movement during transport. You obviously want to make sure this is only for short periods of time but it is the industry standard.


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## SmackoftheGods

BOOSHIFIED said:


> it is the industry standard.


Really? Because of all the frogs I've gotten only one shipment has ever come to me in condiment cups....


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## fleshfrombone

SmackoftheGods said:


> Really? Because of all the frogs I've gotten only one shipment has ever come to me in condiment cups....


That's odd Jake. What were they shipped in? Every single shipment I've received came in condiment cups as well.


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## billschwinn

I ship in 8 oz pre punched deli cups.


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## SmackoftheGods

I usually get mine shipped in 1/4 pound tupperware containers. I did get one shipment shipped in the 2 ounce condiment cups, but other than that it's always been 1/4 pound tupperware containers (except for that one time that three frogs were shipped in the same 1 pound tupperware container... same type that I keep my fruit flies going in... tons of space in that!)


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## zBrinks

Assuming we are talking about froglets/juvies, I'm a fan of the 4oz condiment cups myself. They contain the frogs very well, and figuring the frogs are in them less than 24 hours, I'm sure they don't mind


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## Tony

SmackoftheGods said:


> I usually get mine shipped in 1/4 pound tupperware containers. I did get one shipment shipped in the 2 ounce condiment cups, but other than that it's always been 1/4 pound tupperware containers (except for that one time that three frogs were shipped in the same 1 pound tupperware container... same type that I keep my fruit flies going in... tons of space in that!)


Tons of space to move around also means tons of space to get tossed around and injured/killed. As Zach said, the 4 oz cups are great, I have had no DOAs since switching to them instead of 8oz cups or gladware.


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## SmackoftheGods

Tony said:


> Tons of space to move around also means tons of space to get tossed around and injured/killed. As Zach said, the 4 oz cups are great, I have had no DOAs since switching to them instead of 8oz cups or gladware.


*shrug* I can't only attest to what my frogs have been shipped to me in....

I understand the logic behind the argument that providing space provides room to get tossed around... I wonder if anyone has put forth the time to conduct an experiment. I find that often, just because the logic _sounds_ good doesn't make it sound or valid....


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## Tony

SmackoftheGods said:


> *shrug* I can't only attest to what my frogs have been shipped to me in....
> 
> I understand the logic behind the argument that providing space provides room to get tossed around... I wonder if anyone has put forth the time to conduct an experiment. I find that often, just because the logic _sounds_ good doesn't make it sound or valid....


I know from talking to Darren Meyer that the secret to shipping _A. zaparo_ turned out to be cramming them into cups so tiny that they couldn't move, in larger containers they just beat themselves to death. I have heard similar stories about shipping adult _P. terribilis_, though I don't remember the source. I re-evaluated my own packing methods after a gruesome shipping day (shipped about 80 frogs in 4 packages and had a loss of nearly 50%, my first ever DOAs and it hit hard). Since then I talked to a few more experienced shippers and adopted to small cup method and have had no further losses.


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## NathanB

I've had sucess getting zaps in larger sized containers


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## Ed

I've shipped stuff in fruit fly containers with out any issue. The main thing is to add some padding. I use soaked and then squeezed out long fiber sphagnum that has been fluffed up so it isn't in a solid mat. That has worked well for me over the years. Between home and working in the pet trade and zoos, I have recieved frogs in everything from moistened pillow cases, to 2-liter soda bottles, to pal pens to small condiment cups and a number of things inbetween. The biggest problem I've seen in more than 20 years typically was the result of putting a bunch of soaked sphagnum into the containers. As the container is shaken around the frogs often spend a lot of time attempting to get free of the sphagnum. 

Ed


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## evolvstll

Too much sphagnum can and does damage frogs in shipment. That is why you will see anyone experienced in shipping will not use much if any at all. 

In regards to containers I have been using these for shiping:
Superior Shipping Supplies - Plastic Vials

For display at shows anywhere from 16 oz containers to 190 oz containers and sometimes 10 gallon tanks. 

I can see an issue with 8 or 4 oz cups for show display in Tarons case. He comes from Kansas. It has to be a space saver, especially for the amount of animals he advertises to be taking to shows. If the frogs are packed that way and transported to the show, that can result in several days. Is that any different than a frog being packed for shipping and being in that size container for 2-3 days sometimes?


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## Ed

Which is why I fluff the sphagnum so 
1) you don't need a crap load of it 

2) it doesn't pack down and become an issue. 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

Tony said:


> I know from talking to Darren Meyer that the secret to shipping _A. zaparo_ turned out to be cramming them into cups so tiny that they couldn't move, in larger containers they just beat themselves to death. I have heard similar stories about shipping adult _P. terribilis_, though I don't remember the source. I re-evaluated my own packing methods after a gruesome shipping day (shipped about 80 frogs in 4 packages and had a loss of nearly 50%, my first ever DOAs and it hit hard). Since then I talked to a few more experienced shippers and adopted to small cup method and have had no further losses.


Again, not saying you're wrong, just commenting. It seems that when shipped in 8 oz or larger containers the key would be to provide padding (as Ed mentioned). Most of those I receive (with the exception of those I get from Mark Pepper who ships in 8 oz containers with a paper towel in the bottom) are loaded with plant clippings to provide padding and preventing much tossing (certainly no tossing from one side of the container to the other).


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## Ed

Lets look at the behaviors of the frogs that are relevent here. Dendrobatids tend to look to hide in leaf litter, or bromeliad axils or other spots which provide contact on more than one side of the frogs. These tactile reassurances are what reassures the frogs. This is why the various methods which provide tactile conditions work. 

With that said, has anyone tried lining a container with bubble wrap? This has been used with other species of anurans (for example Puerto Rican Crested Toads).


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## Dendrobatid

Ed said:


> The main thing is to add some padding. I use soaked and then squeezed out long fiber sphagnum that has been fluffed up so it isn't in a solid mat.
> Ed


 I think that this is a very good point. I have been shipping frogs for about 20 years and always ship with moistened fluffed out sphagnum and then I put live Pothos leaves to provide hiding places. Sometimes I have used dried out Magnolia leaves in combination with this method. When I'm shipping frogs in slightly larger containers I will use large dried out Magnolia leaves and place them in a X formation from the bottom to the top of the container. If done properly this method helps keeps everything from shifting. 

Jim


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## Marty71

Shipping containers aside, I can't really say I have a positive or negative feeling towards you Taron. I have never dealt with you personally. I will say that my opinion of you is based on what I see and hear, most of which is negative. I also find it kind of telling that you haven't responded to any of the questions or requests in this thread.


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## ilovejaden

Okay, I really didnt want to get into this...But ive ordered almost 1000 dollars worth of broms from Taron..And I can say I really have no complaints..sometimes the shipping is rather slow...When I text him asking about my order I get a response. When I pm him I get a response. Ive sold these broms to almost 80% of the utah frogging community, and havnt heard one complaint..Do I think everything Taron does is right? No. Do I think people make stupid mistakes that leave you wondering if that person is a retard? Yes. Give the guy a break its pretty obvious hes trying to change things...But still i do think the tinc issue is rather stupid and shady. Also, Would I buy frogs from Taron? No, not until he can show me he is responsible with his frogs. Ill buy his broms tho but then again how hard is it to ship a brom?


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## PeanutbuttER

ilovejaden said:


> Ive sold these broms to almost 80% of the utah frogging community...


I'm curious where you're pulling that number from. I personally have no idea how big the utah frogging community is outside of those who are on forums.


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## Scott

Since the man himself says this is an open thread regarding him ... and I see this posted elsewhere ...



> Due to us not being allowed to show up to the show via complaints from other vendors stating our prices are to low we are offering free shipping to any one that orders from us in the dallas/arlington area.


I doubt it's only "low prices" that people have complained about. I remember what happened at this show last year - how one of the other dealers was treated by Taron.

I'm sure *they* remember it as well.

s


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## SmackoftheGods

PeanutbuttER said:


> I'm curious where you're pulling that number from. I personally have no idea how big the utah frogging community is outside of those who are on forums.


Even assuming that every PDFer in Utah is on this forum (they're not, I know this for a fact) that means he would have had to sell broms to at least 37 people....

Maybe Tyson has sold broms to 80% of the Utah frogging community worth knowing?


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## Ghost vivs

Scott said:


> Since the man himself says this is an open thread regarding him ... and I see this posted elsewhere ...
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt it's only "low prices" that people have complained about. I remember what happened at this show last year - how one of the other dealers was treated by Taron.
> 
> I'm sure *they* remember it as well.
> 
> s


I remember that and the bull shit he told people to move as many frogs as he could. Its also amazing the things he and his girl will tell people about their business. Let's just say the "man" would be interested. 

Also... I know the guy that runs the show. So I will find out the truth from him directly.


Casper


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## PeanutbuttER

SmackoftheGods said:


> Even assuming that every PDFer in Utah is on this forum (they're not, I know this for a fact) that means he would have had to sell broms to at least 37 people....
> 
> Maybe Tyson has sold broms to 80% of the Utah frogging community worth knowing?


Perhaps  I'm just curious about how big he's estimating our community. I haven't bought any broms from him so now you're making me wonder if I'm part of the 20% that's worth knowing or not. Great, another thing to worry about 

Sorry for the derailing. Now, back to the roast, er, I mean, honest assessment of Taron


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## illinoisfrogs

Scott said:


> Since the man himself says this is an open thread regarding him ... and I see this posted elsewhere ...
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt it's only "low prices" that people have complained about. I remember what happened at this show last year - how one of the other dealers was treated by Taron.
> 
> I'm sure *they* remember it as well.
> 
> s


I found this classified really interesting as well. The prices listed aren't "low" at all, they are in the typical range found on this site, or with any other breeder.


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## Ghost vivs

His story about complaints keeping him from vending are bull shit! All of the vendor spots were taken and that's it! So just because they are out of tables he has to make up a poor me story. He keeps saying "I have changed" buy yet keeps telling lies... This violin you keep playing Taron, is all out of strings...


Casper


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## JeremyHuff

Taron
Still waiting for the photographic proof you promised me of your captive breeding of atelopus. Let's see pics of the breeding set-up, them in amplexus, eggs and tads. If you are selling a proven pair or group, back it up with some proof.


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## Brotherly Monkey

"This thread is about me! I would like to hear what you think of me and i dont want anything held back."

^lol @ thinking that was a good idea^


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## ilovejaden

PeanutbuttER said:


> I'm curious where you're pulling that number from. I personally have no idea how big the utah frogging community is outside of those who are on forums.


Come to the frogger group, there are a lot of froggers out here. a lot of them dont even sign up for dendro or post...I know several in ogden who have darts and have never posted once.


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## ilovejaden

PeanutbuttER said:


> Perhaps  I'm just curious about how big he's estimating our community. I haven't bought any broms from him so now you're making me wonder if I'm part of the 20% that's worth knowing or not. Great, another thing to worry about
> 
> Sorry for the derailing. Now, back to the roast, er, I mean, honest assessment of Taron


LOL! I havnt met you yet buddy! and sorry I meant more so the people who are activity part of the utah frogger community! not as in a whole my mistake!! But as I said I have sold them to people who dont even post on dendro..ran into them off ksl actually lol.


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## Scott

<crickets>


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## Woodsman

I also noticed in almost EVERY section on Kingsnake his plea for wholesale quantities of milksnakes, pythons (essentially every section I was looking in). Taron has stated specifically in this thread that he is not in it for the money (he has another job, apparantly), so why the constant need to buy and sell anything and everything?

Taron, a frogger you are not.

Richard.


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## boabab95

I'd be interested in seeing the Atelopus set-up aswell...


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## ExoticPocket

<crickets to the fact that he hasn't answered> 
 Scott


-Alex


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## Bcs TX

> I also noticed in almost EVERY section on Kingsnake his plea for wholesale quantities of milksnakes, pythons


I noticed he was posting a wanted add for wholesale Crocodiles and Alligators...
Go figure.


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## Taron

Read Below


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## SmackoftheGods

Anyone wanna tell me what a hipocrat is?

Taron, it seems to me that the need for wholesale prices is but a pittance compared to some of the other issues (specifically husbandry issues) that have arisen from this thread. Informing us that your family has pet stores is likely to do a whole lot of nothing to assuage any doubts that anyone has about you....


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## Scott

Excellent response when you *asked* for the feedback Taron.

You don't show up to defend and/or discuss - you just leave the thread alone for months, then you show up and criticize.

You wonder why your image might be tarnished a bit?

s


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## Taron

wow did I miss alot. Anyways I started this thread for a couple of reasons.

1. That being to grow as a frogger. 
2. To hear how my growth is going
3. To become a better person

See I was raised to be humble and somewhere along the way I veered from that path. Since hitting rock bottom I have realized that I am rarely in the right and it is better to learn by listening. This is why I started this. Since reading some things I have written a care sheet which is given with the purchase of frogs. I am actually going to post it so it can be critiqued. I am in this particular hobby because I love animals. There is no money in it but in order to keep what I have it takes some selling. I hope to have many pictures to post soon enough.In the meantime please keep it up and I appreciate the negative and positive comments.

PS That goes for you Scott and you Richard even Cindy.

You three have touched me alot and caused me to grow.

Thank You to everyone!


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## Taron

Lol that last part didn't come out right.

I know opinions have started to change regardless of the few that still believe I am a dishonest cheat and scammer.



Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Taron

also I have never said mixing was a good thing or the thing to do. I actually tell people not to mix and that its what I recommend. It is also in the care sheet.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Scott

I know you might not believe this Taron, but I'm actually quite an open minded person.

I am a Software Engineer and these days my specialty is data. I'm very logical - and I look for patterns in the data.

The problem here is - I see no change in the behavior (the "data").

If/when I (and most assuredly, others) see a change in the way you do things - your image will change. 

It's a slow process to be sure, and it only gets tougher as things do _not_ change.

But I do pay attention and I can be persuaded (if you care).

s


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I am in this particular hobby because I love animals. There is no money in it but in order to keep what I have it takes some selling.


Bullshit... if there is no $ in this hobby why in the fuck do you have a frog business?? Hobbyists don't say " I have to sell these frogs so I can make my house payments", but a business does ... Your make your $ FROM hobbyists, nothing more. 

So you buy and sell as many frogs and reptiles as you can just to keep what you have?? 
How in the hell does this make any sense? 






ReptilesEtcetera said:


> also I have never said mixing was a good thing or the thing to do. I actually tell people not to mix and that its what I recommend. It is also in the care sheet.


More bullshit! You say "put what you want in your vivs, it is yours so do what you want. If they cross its not like your going to put them back in the wild, so its ok". You just won't say it on here because "you know what people will say". This is what you told me word for word. 

I will also bet the only reason you made care sheets is to make yourself look better.



Casper


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## evolvstll

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> wow did I miss alot. Anyways I started this thread for a couple of reasons.
> 
> ......................... I am in this particular hobby because I love animals. There is no money in it but in order to keep what I have it takes some selling. I hope to have many pictures to post soon enough.In the meantime please keep it up and I appreciate the negative and positive comments.
> .............................................


As mentioned above, no money? Why go through the effort of coming to vend at shows in Southern California from Kansas if that is the case? Also all of the ads for all of the other shows you vend at speaks differently.


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## mantisdragon91

I have to call bullshit on this as well. I've sold and traded animals in the past myself to finance future aquisitions. And yet I have never had to rely on selling other people's animals. It easier if you just admit that this is a money making venture for you. There is no shame in that and it may go a small way towards restoring your credibility.


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## Taron

You guys can call bs all you want I have been doing this for over 10 years and not once could I say this supports me. However I would love to say it did I just don't see that possible. I travel because I love to and the California show is our best show but it is also a vacation. The trip cost around $3,000 by the time we pay for everything. We will be lucky if we cover the costs. This is kind of a good example. We do make money from time to time but it cost a lot of money to care for what we have.

for example we have several tortoises, bearded dragons, chameleons, lots of birds, saltwater fish tanks and everything else under the sun. I pretty much feed a zoo everyweek and our cost to do so is $400-$700 depending on if its rodent feeding week. Not to mention the cost of new caging water bowls and other upkeep items. The day I can support my hobby and my family with my hobby is the day I quit my day job.

Scott what would you like me to do to show change.


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## Taron

Casper what I was saying was to you not a beginner. I said I can not contol what people do with there own money if they want to mix then they will. I can not control what others do with there own money. I however can control what I do and I do not mix. 

I put that on my care sheet because of the confusion that you and Cindy conjured up on the other board. I have never told someone it was ok to mix. I have told people that what they do with there own money is up to them. I no longer use that phrase as well just because it can cause confusion. Like I said before learning to do things and say things differently.


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## boabab95

so, are you able to answer all of the other questions you haven't answered yet?

I haven't formed an complete opinion yet, as well, im not even in the same country...


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## poison beauties

Taron only people with breeding projects or business's post want ads for wholesale herps and you seem to want everything so Id put you in the category of the later. . You make it a big point to say your not making too much and are more of a hobbyist but there seems to be very little of the hobby in your representation. Hell your now offering up Tshirts for sale, if your were really against mixing and other issues you would be handing them out at cost in order to spread the word and do your part. Ive considered it myself as I have a few trademarked sayings that relate to this category.

Hobbyists give back, not through sales or cheaper deals but they actively help others. You may not have such an issue if you were actually breeding what your selling. Lots more potential respect there too. I like that you threw yourself out on the ledge but you seem to be very defensive about it now. I notice when people start posting up about they want to know where all these frogs are or is this rare even I might be able to get in some Atelopus its always with a line in the water wanting to hook someone. Maybe setting up breeding projects and helping the hobby with some of that stuff would have been more hobbyist like.

Michael


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Casper what I was saying was to you not a beginner. I said I can not contol what people do with there own money if they want to mix then they will. I can not control what others do with there own money. I however can control what I do and I do not mix.
> 
> I put that on my care sheet because of the confusion that you and Cindy conjured up on the other board. I have never told someone it was ok to mix. I have told people that what they do with there own money is up to them. I no longer use that phrase as well just because it can cause confusion. Like I said before learning to do things and say things differently.


Fist off I'm not talking about how you lied to Cindy, that's a totally different subject than what I am talking about. But if you want to ...

2nd. How the fuck am I conjuring up anything. You said exactly what I said in my last post.

3rd. So the vivarium I built for the lady's two different frogs that you told her "all kinds of people have 2 or more types in a tank with no problems" even after she told you they were her 1st frogs. Is that the experience level you referring to?... or am I conjuring that up also. 


Casper


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## Taron

Yes you are I never once told her that Casper and like you said we both had this conversation so you know I am against it. Your trying to state that I tell people on here that I tell people its ok to mix. Well its not ok and I never said that.

As for pictures ,I am hesitent to show off what I have. However several behing the scenes hobbyist do know what I have and work with. As for the Atelopus I posted pics of there viv a while ago. I do need to post pics of the tads and eggs however. I did not take a picture of amplexus because I was not there when they laid. 

As for shirts they will be at cost that's why I need to find out how many people want them.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Brotherly Monkey

Not specifically in relation to the current business under discussion, but I never understood the issue many in this hobby have with someone running a business that sells PDFs, even one's they don't breed 

seems like a business model would offer an easier avenue for people to acquire stock, and even dispose of it.


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Yes you are I never once told her that Casper and like you said we both had this conversation so you know I am against it. Your trying to state that I tell people on here that I tell people its ok to mix. Well its not.


The hell if you didn't tell her that! You may not mix. But you have no problem telling people whatever they want to hear to help you sell as much as you can. And when your girl is running your booth, she does the same.

Casper


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## Taron

Dude that is a lie! I don't care how many times you say it. If she feels I told her that I will gladly give her some leucs for her one leuc she has. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Dude that is a lie! I don't care how many times you say it. If she feels I told her that I will gladly give her some leucs for her one leuc she has.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



What leucs? Never said it was a Leuc(s). That must be someone else you lied to also.

And tell me Taron, what do I have to gain from the lies that I'm telling...
Not a fucking thing! Now with your lies, that's a different story huh? 

If you want I can post more of the conversation I had with you, and on a different occasion your girl. I have been holding my tongue about the other stuff you and your girl told me. But maybe I shouldn't ...


Casper


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## Taron

I may have been wrong on the leuc regardless whatever she has had die because I supposedly said it was ok to mix I will replace. That is all I am saying. As for other stuff I said that is what this thread is for so let's here it. I want to know if I have done something wrong according to someone else. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Taron

ps what is with the language? you did not act that way at the show at all.

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## Taron

also if I am not at the show it is my responsibility to make sure she is saying the right stuff. I will have a talk with her and ask her if that is being said. Me and her had this conversation one time before about a year ago so I wouldn't see it happening again.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Taron

also when another vendor comes to me and ask me to raise my prices then I hear of a complaint I am pretty sure it is valid. Also this isn't the first time she has done this. She also did it at NARBC and asked several vendors to raise there prices. That in my opinion is money based not what I do.

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## Bcs TX

Taron, I have read about the no-mixing T-Shirt but curious why you want to put a picture of a hybrid on it...... How is that going to discourage mixing?

I will agree with others that the no-mixing T-Shirt from you is an oxymoron considering your reputation. 




> also when another vendor comes to me and ask me to raise my prices then I hear of a complaint I am pretty sure it is valid. Also this isn't the first time she has done this. She also did it at NARBC and asked several vendors to raise there prices. That in my opinion is money based not what I do.


What the heck is the above Taron? It has been established from previous posts in this thread that your prices are close if not the same as hers... I was at the Arlington show as well and saw it in person. Plus FYI the Arlington show has a "No W/C Policy" might want to keep that in mind, if there is a next time......
-Beth


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I may have been wrong on the leuc regardless whatever she has had die because I supposedly said it was ok to mix I will replace. That is all I am saying. As for other stuff I said that is what this thread is for so let's here it. I want to know if I have done something wrong according to someone else.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



No supposedly about it. You lie to sell, you lie when you buy, then you lie to cover up those lies. 
The last show your business was at in Arlington ( you were not there) I asked your girl if the pums you were selling had local info. She said hang on let me call Taron, you tell her YES but he didn't have the paperwork in front of him, come back Sunday I will have the info. I knew this was bullshit so I didn't come back. I just wanted to see if you and her would lie about those... And you did. Remember that call??

And she also told me about how you got screwed on untreated frogs. 2,000.00 and 4 dead histrionicus, what's it like getting lied to Taron? From what she said, that guy better not show his face around you or else. How many people say the same about you?

And do you remember the show before that, when you told me how you got them histros? And how they were smuggled. And how your guy gets them in with his W/C shipments of auratus. Remember now??





ReptilesEtcetera said:


> ps what is with the language? you did not act that way at the show all.


Because I didn't know you at the first show. I went home and looked you up...found out how you are. How was your language when you got fucked on 2,000.00?

You stop telling lies,and I will stop saying fuck ... But lets be honest here, you will never stop with your lies, so fuck,fuckitty,fuck, fuck,fuck....


Casper


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## boabab95

[little kids voice]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

somebody's in trooooouuubbllleeeee......

[end little kids voice]


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## Taron

That is all true however i don't remember the pumilio call. I found out the sylvaticas were wc after the fact and it took me a while to track down how he got them in. I was obviously disappointed to lose 2,000 as well as find out they were wc. Not much I can do now. 

BCS $60 azureus to $35 azureus are alot different. That was the only frog we had that was similar. 


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## Enlightened Rogue

One word describes this entire thread....

Pathetic.

John


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## Taron

Agreed this thread is pathetic but it needed to happen. 

I guess I don't know where you are coming from on the tshirt.

I was showing why not to mix because they can hybridize.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Bcs TX

> One word describes this entire thread....
> 
> Pathetic.


Ditto.....

As far as the Hybrid T-Shirt goes, hmmmm... newbie seeing T-Shirt with no mixing and a pic of a hybrid, plus a vendor selling frogs saying ok to mix, the newbie would think, hmmm blue frogs mating with yellow frogs, cool.......
You get paid either way. 
Taron your prices were close to hers, plus she does not have W/C only C/B. What nasties are floating around your "wholesale" frogs you bought and did not raise along with the "nasties" from the W/C you bought that - are with the C/B. What is your quarantine/fecal/treatment regime? Or do you trust the person you bought them from?


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## Marty71

Honestly Taron, as a mildly impartial observer, I have to admit that I know very few hobbyists that post wholesale wanted ads all over the internet, shrug of the loss of 2k on a bad deal, travel the country to sell their frogs, all just to support the hobby. You are dealing with many people that passionately support the hobby, but balance that support against their need to pay mortgages, raise kids, and balance the costs of the hobby against those of day to day life. You may not realize it, but at a point some of your excuses are becoming somewhat patronizing and insulting. Contrary to a belief you must hold within your head, you are not dealing with morons here.


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## Enlightened Rogue

Nothing personal Taron, I`ve never done buisness with you before.

John


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> That is all true however i don't remember the pumilio call. I found out the sylvaticas were wc after the fact and it took me a while to track down how he got them in. I was obviously disappointed to lose 2,000 as well as find out they were wc. Not much I can do now.
> 
> BCS $60 azureus to $35 azureus are alot different.


More lies so.... You fucking told me the 1st time I met you that you knew they were smuggled! They were still alive then, numbnutz. 3 months later your girl tells me they were dead! Figure out the time frame?


And that's not what you do... really? How much profit did you make from the lies you told to Cindy? And like I said before, I know Ottis, the guy that runs it! There was no tables available! And he has to fill tables to bring people in the door. What frog vendor do you think he is going go with? The one that has been there from the start!


Casper


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## mantisdragon91

Ghost vivs said:


> More lies so.... You fucking told me the 1st time I met you that you knew they were smuggled! They were still alive then, numbnutz. 3 months later your girl tells me they were dead! Figure out the time frame?
> 
> *
> And that's not what you do... really? How much profit did you make from the lies you told to Cindy?* And like I said before, I know Ottis, the guy that runs it! There was no tables available! And he has to fill tables to bring people in the door. What frog vendor do you think he is going go with? The one that has been there from the start!
> 
> 
> Casper


Are these the red galacs that were bought a few months ago supposedly for personal use and then resold at a considerable profit a couple of days later?


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## Taron

We will see casper we will see. I am great friends with Otis and Meleah however I like the competition and I hope to always be there with Cindy. I am not going anywhere.

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## boabab95

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I like the competition................................. I am not going anywhere.


i thought you werent in it for the money?


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## Bcs TX

> We will see casper we will see. I am great friends with Otis and Meleah however I like the competition and I hope to always be there with Cindy. I am not going anywhere.


Soo..... you are here for the hobby Taron? Not looking to make a living and your competition is Cindy? She has been in the business for 15 yrs. plus. I have been to her house seen her frogs and many others as well, she cares for her frogs and is a great mentor and helpful to froggers that bought or did not buy frogs from her. 
Taron she did you a favor, sold you some frogs that you told her would stay in your collection as breeders then put up a classified ad to sell them..... 

-go figure...


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## mantisdragon91

boabab95 said:


> i thought you werent in it for the money?


Rule one of Dendroboard fight club.... Whenever some one says its not about the money... It's about the money


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> We will see casper we will see. I am great friends with Otis and Meleah however I like the competition and I hope to always be there with Cindy. I am not going anywhere.


I don't care where you go. I'm just glad you started this thread. Because how else would people find out about you. I think most people realize if they want the truth, they will not ask you... This thread should be called-Help me lose more customers...

Casper


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## poison beauties

I dont so much see what the issue is with business vs business at a show, Now the practices taken that you use to sell those frogs is what matters. Still both are business's claiming to be hobbyists and money is money. Who cares if someone is getting undercut at a show. Taron if you werent actively trying to buy up any and all herps in bulk wholesale and just started breeding what you sell you may not have these issues.
That said you and I have done biz and it went well. I just think of hobbyists as those who put the time in, not the ones buying up their next lots of critters to sell online and at a show. Even then there are those who breed and run with the business mentality. They are the ones who do little more than use the classifieds but they will meet you at a show and sell you anything you will buy.


Michael


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## srrrio

Bcs TX said:


> Taron she did you a favor, sold you some frogs that you told her would stay in your collection as breeders then put up a classified ad to sell them.....
> 
> -go figure...


I remember this orange galac incident, as reported on this board, it bothered me a lot. Several years ago I sold an auratus (one of my first born frogs) to a guy who played the part of a beginner and talked me into a cheaper price (they were cheap already). I did not mind as they were going to someone who seemed to really care. Later I was walking around the rather big show and there was this same guy at a booth, an obvious employee of a well known business dealing with darts and feeders (I don't think this business exists anymore). He looked slightly embarrassed and walked away. I always wondered why lie so nicely for all of a 5 dollar discount. 

Well, there are always people out there that lie, or at least over/under state by yards. I think there are people well thought of on this board that are doing things much the way Taron has apparently done. 

They just do it with a better sheep suit.

Finally, I think the mixing t-shirt is bloody brilliant! What a great way to get awareness of the issue. If you had lot of people roaming around a herp show with that shirt on, it should start conversations and that is the beginning of change. Plus most pics of auratus/azereus crosses that I have seen, are not very attractive.

With that said, I will hope for the opportunity to buy an anti-mixing t-shirt for my local pet shop owner who reallllly needs it. Sometimes bribery works to change things as well  

Sally


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## Brotherly Monkey

poison beauties said:


> Taron if you werent actively trying to buy up any and all herps in bulk wholesale and just started breeding what you sell you may not have these issues.


what is the difference?


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## poison beauties

BM do you really not see any difference in flipping and actually breeding? There is a huge difference in the respect level in the hobby. Just saying maybe it would help. I dont see the need in continued flipping if you have that much access to breeding stock and you do call yourself a hobbyist.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey

poison beauties said:


> BM do you really not see any difference in flipping and actually breeding? There is a huge difference in the respect level in the hobby. Just saying maybe it would help. I dont see the need in continued flipping if you have that much access to breeding stock and you do call yourself a hobbyist.
> 
> Michael



What if someone doesn't have the time, or inclination, to sell their own stock? Clearly someone traveling to shows, and constantly marketing similar products, has a much larger presence, and access to a bigger customer pool, than some person stuck in BFE, who works a 9-5, and dealing with a family. 

At the end of the day, it looks like a stupid pet peeve in the hobby, regardless of how many people adhere to it


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## poison beauties

If they are taking this much time to feed a herp collection, already a constant seller on the boards and KS and has the space, access to the breeding stock and knowhow whats the issue with them not flipping others frogs but actually breeding? I havent a problem one with selling frogs to herp shops I know or with them flipping the frogs. I just dont see it fit for them to refer to themselves as hobbyists if they are not breeding atleast a decent percentage of what they sell. Its no more a pet peeve than a potential issue as well when some actively sell frogs with the wrong ID and are giving out bad advice on care. Not calling out Taron as Ive had no issues what so ever with him. But these issues do happen. And again I do not disagree with anyone selling what they breed to the wholesalers, it can help lower the demand for wc. 
Im out BM. Its gone off track.

Michael


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## Ed

Ghost vivs said:


> I don't care where you go. I'm just glad you started this thread. Because how else would people find out about you. I think most people realize if they want the truth, they will not ask you... This thread should be called-Help me lose more customers...
> 
> Casper


 
A google search of his name can produce some hilarious results when the bigger picture is examined.. 


Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Not specifically in relation to the current business under discussion, but I never understood the issue many in this hobby have with someone running a business that sells PDFs, even one's they don't breed
> 
> seems like a business model would offer an easier avenue for people to acquire stock, and even dispose of it.


This is just my opinion....

What I've seen is usually businesses that use dart frogs to support their livelihood care more about making the sale than dispensing proper husbandry information. Most businesses do darts on the side and don't have good husbandry information to begin with. But even those who do sell darts pretty excuslively seem to be willing to tell a customer what they want to hear. If a seller who is trying to support himself thinks that the customer wants to hear that it's perfectly fine to mix, then the seller will tell him that in order to A) make the sale, and B) make a larger sale (if you can mix, then you should get all the colors in the rainbow!).

Now, this is in contrast to hobbyists who sell offspring, but accept that they may or may not sell anything. A hobbyist who has enough offspring to go to a show is much more likely to be more focused on spreading knowledge than selling frogs. I met someone like that at my first reptile expo when buying darts. He was willing to lay down all of the information, and didn't care if I didn't buy anything just because I didn't like what he was saying....


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## Roadrunner

Maybe I misinterpretted the question but....

People who buy frogs instead of breeding them usually end up w/ contamination issues from mixing offspring or not sterilizing tanks, etc. There is a much bigger chance of parasites from constantly bringing in more stock from who knows where, esp if you work w/ other frogs, reptiles, etc. It's like playing the lottery, even if the chances are low the more you do it the more chance you have for something like chytrid, lung and hookworm, coccidia and new novel pathogens(when working w/ wc) to show up and spread. Which is why I never took on other people's animals, although it was very tempting to be able to make a buck w/out doing the work.



Brotherly Monkey said:


> What if someone doesn't have the time, or inclination, to sell their own stock? Clearly someone traveling to shows, and constantly marketing similar products, has a much larger presence, and access to a bigger customer pool, than some person stuck in BFE, who works a 9-5, and dealing with a family.
> 
> At the end of the day, it looks like a stupid pet peeve in the hobby, regardless of how many people adhere to it


----------



## mantisdragon91

frogfarm said:


> Maybe I misinterpretted the question but....
> 
> People who buy frogs instead of breeding them usually end up w/ contamination issues from mixing offspring or not sterilizing tanks, etc. There is a much bigger chance of parasites from constantly bringing in more stock from who knows where, esp if you work w/ other frogs, reptiles, etc. It's like playing the lottery, even if the chances are low the more you do it the more chance you have for something like chytrid, lung and hookworm, coccidia and new novel pathogens(when working w/ wc) to show up and spread. Which is why I never took on other people's animals, although it was very tempting to be able to make a buck w/out doing the work.


To add to Aaron's concise summary. Most flippers do not bother to evaluate the health of the animals before taking them to market. In many cases they will unpack a shipment and take it right to the show without giving the animals a chance to eat, rehydrate or settle down. We still don't know all the possible effects of low level stress caused by housing darts in little deli cups for days on end. Beginning hobbyists which are the bread and butter for these guys don't know the right questions to ask to make sure that the darts they are getting are best suited to start with( healthy, unstressed animals, with minimal parasite loads) This is why we constantly hear horror stories of people picking up animals at shows only to have them die within days.


----------



## zBrinks

SmackoftheGods said:


> But even those who do sell darts pretty excuslively seem to be willing to tell a customer what they want to hear. If a seller who is trying to support himself thinks that the customer wants to hear that it's perfectly fine to mix, then the seller will tell him that in order to A) make the sale, and B) make a larger sale (if you can mix, then you should get all the colors in the rainbow!).


 IME, there tends to be more hobbyists/pseudo-businesses spreading bad information than businesses that do it, at least full time. I've heard some pretty awful information spread at shows, and seldom was it from an actual business. Animals should never be 'pushed' on a customer - they are either ready for them or they are not, and impulse buys end up not only harming the animal, but do not make financial sense in the long run (at least, if you are concerned about customer satisfaction). 



SmackoftheGods said:


> Now, this is in contrast to hobbyists who sell offspring, but accept that they may or may not sell anything. A hobbyist who has enough offspring to go to a show is much more likely to be more focused on spreading knowledge than selling frogs. I met someone like that at my first reptile expo when buying darts. He was willing to lay down all of the information, and didn't care if I didn't buy anything just because I didn't like what he was saying....


 I just got back from a show across the country, where I sold 7 frogs, only 4 of which were darts. If I was actively trying to sell as many frogs as possible, without caring about where they went and how they were taken care of, I could have easily sold many, many more. Please consider that not all business practices are 'bad' business practices. Keep in mind that many who do this as a business started out as hobbyists, and figured out a way to let their passion pay for itself, and then some. Coming from a business that goes through great lengths to breed all of their own dart frogs, insure top notch animals, and provide all of the husbandry materials and information needed for their care, I see this every day. Heck, Josh still takes time at the end of the day to put the newly hatched tadpoles into cups for rearing (and we're up to 8 employees now)


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

SmackoftheGods said:


> This is just my opinion....
> 
> What I've seen is usually businesses that use dart frogs to support their livelihood care more about making the sale than dispensing proper husbandry information. Most businesses do darts on the side and don't have good husbandry information to begin with. But even those who do sell darts pretty excuslively seem to be willing to tell a customer what they want to hear. If a seller who is trying to support himself thinks that the customer wants to hear that it's perfectly fine to mix, then the seller will tell him that in order to A) make the sale, and B) make a larger sale (if you can mix, then you should get all the colors in the rainbow!).
> 
> Now, this is in contrast to hobbyists who sell offspring, but accept that they may or may not sell anything. A hobbyist who has enough offspring to go to a show is much more likely to be more focused on spreading knowledge than selling frogs. I met someone like that at my first reptile expo when buying darts. He was willing to lay down all of the information, and didn't care if I didn't buy anything just because I didn't like what he was saying....


If the seller is the type of asshole willing to spread misinformation to make a sale, I highly doubt that will change simply because he's now producing his own stock


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfarm said:


> Maybe I misinterpretted the question but....
> 
> People who buy frogs instead of breeding them usually end up w/ contamination issues from mixing offspring or not sterilizing tanks, etc.


that sounds like the product of poor husbandry practices, not buying and selling frogs




frogfarm said:


> There is a much bigger chance of parasites from constantly bringing in more stock from who knows where, esp if you work w/ other frogs, reptiles, etc. It's like playing the lottery, even if the chances are low the more you do it the more chance you have for something like chytrid, lung and hookworm, coccidia and new novel pathogens(when working w/ wc) to show up and spread. Which is why I never took on other people's animals, although it was very tempting to be able to make a buck w/out doing the work.


1) frogs don't magically turn into money when someone buys them at wholesale. So characterizing it as someone not doing work isn't the most accurate representation here. A more accurate representation, that i also noted in one of my original remarks on the subject, was that it's a division of labor. 

2) again, if someone is willing to buy frogs from whomever, not quarantine them, and take other basic safe guards, that would speak to an aspect of their poor husbandry and business sense, not buying and selling frogs


----------



## Ghost vivs

I don't have any problem with people making $ on frogs. I have a problem with people who lie. If you don't have the man grapes to tell the truth why in the hell do you start a thread like this?? Real hobbyists try to help the hobby, not screw over as many people as they can.

I guess I'm just strange ...



Casper


----------



## markpulawski

...man grapes....c'mon man call a testicle a testicle, or at least use Butter's term "nut sack" (which actually of course is not truely nuts but the scrotii containing them).


----------



## Bcs TX

> I don't have any problem with people making $ on frogs. I have a problem with people who lie. If you don't have the man grapes to tell the truth why in the hell do you start a thread like this?? Real hobbyists try to help the hobby, not screw over as many people as they can.


Darn ran out of "Likes."


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

zBrinks said:


> Keep in mind that many who do this as a business started out as hobbyists, and figured out a way to let their passion pay for itself, and then some.


Mr. Brinks at the vendor booth

http://www.lancescurv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/bling_bling.jpg


----------



## Ghost vivs

markpulawski said:


> ...man grapes....c'mon man call a testicle a testicle, or at least use Butter's term "nut sack" (which actually of course is not truely nuts but the scrotii containing them).



Lol... what ever we call them, he still won't find them.

Casper


----------



## Roadrunner

It comes down to the risk involved w/ getting from everyone and including wc. It's much harder to avoid cross contamination. Do you have a better chance winning the lottery if you buy 10 tickets a week or if you only play 3-4 times and quit? Division of labor is great w/ lamps and books and everything that's not livestock but animals are different. They spread diseases. Have you ever tried to sterilize your hands between each tank? What about an airborne disease, husbandry, even the best couldn't help that w/ the equipment we use and frog prices would be much, much higher if we did. 
You can think whatever you want but try the frog business sometime and then get back to me.


Brotherly Monkey said:


> that sounds like the product of poor husbandry practices, not buying and selling frogs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) frogs don't magically turn into money when someone buys them at wholesale. So characterizing it as someone not doing work isn't the most accurate representation here. A more accurate representation, that i also noted in one of my original remarks on the subject, was that it's a division of labor.
> 
> 2) again, if someone is willing to buy frogs from whomever, not quarantine them, and take other basic safe guards, that would speak to an aspect of their poor husbandry and business sense, not buying and selling frogs


----------



## Roadrunner

And I've sold wholesale before and I'm not blaming people for wholesaling, just saying it's better to get them from the source to avoid the weigh station effect. I'm not saying they are not needed either. But if people only produced what they could sell there would be less contamination issues. To each his/her own. Just another topic it looks like we won't agree on, again


----------



## mantisdragon91

frogfarm said:


> And I've sold wholesale before and I'm not blaming people for wholesaling, just saying it's better to get them from the source to avoid the weigh station effect. I'm not saying they are not needed either. But if people only produced what they could sell there would be less contamination issues. To each his/her own. Just another topic it looks like we won't agree on, again


Do you ever get the feeling that he is just here to stir the pot, and it doesn't matter if he is defending flippers, religious extremists, or republican extremists just as long as he can get a good argument going and piss people off, all the while cowering behind his computer screen


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfarm said:


> It comes down to the risk involved w/ getting from everyone and including wc. It's much harder to avoid cross contamination. Do you have a better chance winning the lottery if you buy 10 tickets a week or if you only play 3-4 times and quit? Division of labor is great w/ lamps and books and everything that's not livestock but animals are different. They spread diseases. Have you ever tried to sterilize your hands between each tank? What about an airborne disease, husbandry, even the best couldn't help that w/ the equipment we use and frog prices would be much, much higher if we did.
> You can think whatever you want but try the frog business sometime and then get back to me.


lots of things spread disease. Hence why such industries take reasonable safeguards in how they run their business...

If they don't take such safeguards it's a reflection of *their* poor practices, not the evils of selling a product


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

mantisdragon91 said:


> Do you ever get the feeling that he is just here to stir the pot, and it doesn't matter if he is defending flippers, religious extremists, or republican extremists just as long as he can get a good argument going and piss people off, all the while cowering behind his computer screen




roman, I'm sorry that anytime you disagree with me on a topic you feel a need to personally attack me. But in the hopes of not having another thread sink to a petty name calling contest, can you take it somewhere else, or even PM me with your insults? I promise I'll give you back the usual pointless banter


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfarm said:


> And I've sold wholesale before and I'm not blaming people for wholesaling, just saying it's better to get them from the source to avoid the weigh station effect. I'm not saying they are not needed either. But if people only produced what they could sell there would be less contamination issues. To each his/her own. Just another topic it looks like we won't agree on, again



Hey, if someone wants to get their products from the source, I can completely understand the various reasons why. After all, I've been involved with farmers markets, co-ops, and csa's for that very reason. What I'm pointing out is that some people seem to be confusing poor business, and husbandry practices, by an individual, with a completely reasonable business model


----------



## zBrinks

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Mr. Brinks at the vendor booth
> 
> http://www.lancescurv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/bling_bling.jpg


 Now I NEED an outfit like this . . .


----------



## NathanB

Nice try Zach, but we all know you already have one.


----------



## Roadrunner

Show me a business in this industry that does all those safeguards and i'll agree, but in reality, no business' have footbaths and seperate rooms and air scubbers between every tank, uses bleach, sterilizes between every tank they touch, has seperate rooms for each set of tads from each breeding pair, etc.etc.etc. Yes, if done perfectly, there is no difference between buying frogs from flippers and directly from the hobbyist. And i guess i misunderstood the question as I wasn't saying it wasn't a sound business model to make money, I said it was a vector for disease spreading.
AS I said before, I didn't say it wasn't needed(reasonable business model). So I don't know why we're arguing. And yes, some business are worse at husbandry and business then others.



Brotherly Monkey said:


> Hey, if someone wants to get their products from the source, I can completely understand the various reasons why. After all, I've been involved with farmers markets, co-ops, and csa's for that very reason. What I'm pointing out is that some people seem to be confusing poor business, and husbandry practices, by an individual, with a completely reasonable business model


----------



## zBrinks

bussardnr said:


> Nice try Zach, but we all know you already have one.


 Mine's blue and purple . . .


----------



## Roadrunner

I do find it funny that now he wants to talk about the frogs( the frog business). But it's just like any other business, right? Funny that he only talks about frogs in the thunderdome also. But I'm out, I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have.


mantisdragon91 said:


> Do you ever get the feeling that he is just here to stir the pot, and it doesn't matter if he is defending flippers, religious extremists, or republican extremists just as long as he can get a good argument going and piss people off, all the while cowering behind his computer screen


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfarm said:


> I do find it funny that now he wants to talk about the frogs( the frog business) like he knows it. But it's just like any other business, right? Funny that he only talks about frogs in the thunderdome also.


if you're saying that they is no way to control contaminants, and disease, then everything from a vet visit, to a frog meet, would be little genocides


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfarm said:


> but in reality, no business' have footbaths and seperate rooms and air scubbers between every tank, uses bleach, sterilizes between every tank they touch, has seperate rooms for each set of tads from each breeding pair, etc.etc.etc.


are you talking about people producing offspring, or wholesalers? Secondly, do you set up little bio-domes every time you take something to a meet?

There's a difference between taking reasonable precautions and unreasonable ones



frogfarm said:


> I wasn't saying it wasn't a sound business model to make money, I said it was a vector for disease spreading.
> AS I said before, I didn't say it wasn't needed(reasonable business model). So I don't know why we're arguing. And yes, some business are worse at husbandry and business then others.


having your stock wiped out by disease, or being known as the guy with dirty frogs, wouldn't be good business. As can be seen in this thread...


----------



## Roadrunner

Both, but breeding and flipping is worse because you have tads and froglets 6 months or more before sale being exposed, possibly, to novel pathogens and a stable collection of adults to hold pathogens.

First, there is a difference w/ keeping frogs in sealed cups at a meet and sterilizing tanks which are going to house another type of frog, where they reside for an extended period of time. 8 hour meets w/ sealed cups as opposed to weeks 6 months or more in the same room w/ new frogs coming in and having a collection your supposedly breeding in the same or next room is a lot different.

Yes, my animals were in sealed cups w/ no airholes, so kinda like a biodome.

I won't reply again here, sorry.

if you're saying that they is no way to control contaminants, and disease, then everything from a vet visit, to a frog meet, would be little genocides 

To your above quote, did I say there was no way, no I didn't as a matter of fact I gave a list of things to prevent it, but even zoos have a very hard time preventing it. Now your just wanting to argue, as I said I'm out


Brotherly Monkey said:


> are you talking about people producing offspring, or wholesalers? Secondly, do you set up little bio-domes every time you take something to a meet?
> 
> There's a difference between taking reasonable precautions and unreasonable ones
> 
> 
> 
> having your stock wiped out by disease, or being known as the guy with dirty frogs, wouldn't be good business, as can be seen in this thread...


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfarm said:


> Both, but breeding and flipping is worse because you have tads and froglets 6 months or more before sale being exposed, possibly, to novel pathogens and a stable collection of adults to hold pathogens.
> 
> First, there is a difference w/ keeping frogs in sealed cups at a meet and sterilizing tanks which are going to house another type of frog, where they reside for an extended period of time. 8 hour meets w/ sealed cups as opposed to weeks 6 months or more in the same room w/ new frogs coming in and having a collection your supposedly breeding in the same or next room is a lot different.
> 
> Yes, my animals were in sealed cups w/ no airholes, so kinda like a biodome


again, you assuming that it's some huge hurdle setting up a separate area for new acquisitions. Hell, I probably buy 50-100 plants over the warmer months, and all are Q and treated in three simple enclosure I have set-up in my garage.

And yes, they are controlled for humidity and heat...


----------



## frogfreak

mantisdragon91 said:


> Do you ever get the feeling that he is just here to stir the pot, and it doesn't matter if he is defending flippers, religious extremists, or republican extremists just as long as he can get a good argument going and piss people off, all the while cowering behind his computer screen


Not just a feeling. In my eyes that's exactly what he/she is doing. Trolling...


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfreak said:


> Not just a feeling. In my eyes that's exactly what he/she is doing. Trolling...


if you don't want your views questioned then you should not probably attempt to discuss them on a public forum...

or at least start removing people who disagree with popular dogma


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfreak said:


> Not just a feeling. In my eyes that's exactly what he/she is doing. Trolling...


and if you feel basic quarantines and disease controls don't work, please feel free to explain why.


----------



## frogfreak

Brotherly Monkey said:


> if you don't want your views questioned then you should not probably attempt to discuss them on a public forum.


It has nothing to do with peoples views and sure they can be discussed. Someone says black, you say white. Someone says up and I bet you will say down. It's so obvious you're just trying to stir up shit. The case in hand is a no brainer yet you want to argue it for something to do or to get people pissed.

The more frogs you acquire and bring into your home or business, the more risk you take. Pretty simple, huh? So, that would make flipping more risky. Get it now? Carry on, as I know you will, but your not going to suck me into sitting at my comp for hours wasting my time on you.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogfreak said:


> It has nothing to do with peoples views and sure they can be discussed. Someone says black, you say white. Someone says up and I bet you will say down. It's so obvious you're just trying to stir up shit. The case in hand is a no brainer yet you want to argue it for something to do or to get people pissed.


or maybe I simply disagree with what is clearly a dogmatic, and illogical, position?



frogfreak said:


> The more frogs you acquire and bring into your home or business, the more risk you take. Pretty simple, huh? So, that would make flipping more risky. Get it now? Carry on, as I know you will, but your not going to suck me into sitting at my comp for hours wasting my time on you.


lol, again, no one ever claimed there was no risk involved with acquiring new frogs, what was claimed is that such risks can be controlled for, like in the manner most hobbyists should do when acquiring new frogs. Get it? 

PS It's also ironic to note that I'm usually not the one insulting people. And really don't see why it's my concern some people get so worked up over the most idiotic things. 

Maybe some of you guys need to get real problems in your lives, so you're not constantly shitting bricks over the moral implications of joe six-pack buying a frog, and shattering some elitist myth you built around your hobby


----------



## Taron

Zach I envy Josh he is a man that is true to his values and I too hope I can be that way. 

Casper your a ghost to me bud.....in other words you don't exist and I could care less what you say anymore you are beyond reasoning. Cindy and I know what was said and she actually heard me call someone in front of her booth. I then called her on the way back through and asked to buy more because I needed more because I had sold the others already. Why not ask her because she will tell you I did. If I would have known it would cause problems I wouldn't have done it. Also don't mix frogs boys and girls its bad for the hobby and that is our stance from this day forward so the past is the past and it is just a he says she says free for all.


----------



## Scott

Yo people arguing about flipping/sanitation/etc/yadda yadda ...

Go start your own thread.

Lightly touching on the subject here is one thing - it isn't the place for an in depth discussion on it.

Please move along now.

s


----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Zach I envy Josh he is a man that is true to his values and I too hope I can be that way.
> 
> Casper your a ghost to me bud.....in other words you don't exist and I could care less what you say anymore you are beyond reasoning. Cindy and I know what was said and she actually heard me call someone in front of her booth. I then called her on the way back through and asked to buy more because I needed more because I had sold the others already. Why not ask her because she will tell you I did. If I would have known it would cause problems I wouldn't have done it. Also don't mix frogs boys and girls its bad for the hobby and that is our stance from this day forward so the past is the past and it is just a he says she says free for all.


You tell lies and you call that reasoning? 

Still can't answer all these questions that have been asked of you?

Its kind of funny, I was not telling a lie about the histos yet I was telling lies about your lies to sell frogs? Make sense...?

I don't know, maybe its just me but doing something illegal and telling lies are two totally different things. One gets people mad, the other gets you put in cuffs.

If you though they were C/B, why did you get mad about your guy telling you they had all their treatments. When do C/B need W/C treatment? And why and how did you tell me how they were smuggled if you didn't know till after they died? They were alive when I talked to you...


So I'm I to blame if I build a viv for someone and they make it a mixed viv down the road?

I have seen Cindy turn people away that wanted to mix. Guess what table they went to... yours! And they left with what they wanted... that is Priceless.


Casper


----------



## Taron

Once again this is going no where fast so time to move on.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Ghost vivs

It would go somewhere ... if you tell the truth. So lets move this along. Answer all the questions... so we can move on.

Casper


----------



## Taron

What questions need answered let's do them one by one I will answer them. The only problem is will you accept my answer.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> What questions need answered let's do them one by one I will answer them. The only problem is will you accept my answer.


I already know the answers to my questions. I just want you to do what you say you do.

BUT... you started this thread. Then left it alone for months. Now finish it with answering EVERYONE'S questions! They all deserve that from you. Here is your chance to make good on your statement " I will answer all questions". I don't think you have balls to do it.

But hay... maybe you will. Hell some people might give you a 2nd chance if you prove you changed your ways. Redemption is a good thing Taron. If the grinch can redeem himself, so can you. Hell then your balls will grow 2 sizes this day...


Here is the 1st 2 pages of questions from YOUR thread. You can look back for the rest of them yourself. 



frogface said:


> Ok I'll bite.
> 
> Taron, most of what I knew of you was through BoI. You were pretty young then so I was willing to give you a chance. Then a dart frog noob bought frogs from you. As I recall, he got 2 tincs, a leuc, and an auratus. He states he was advised by you to house them together. Last we heard from him, all but the leuc was dead.
> 
> Granted his tank was not ideal for darts and he was not supplementing properly. However, as long as you are giving someone advice to keep 4 different frogs together, I think it wouldn't hurt to also mention supplements and how their tank needs to be set up.
> 
> Sorry, this situation just sits in my craw.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...auratus-dead-skinny-tinctorius-fell-over.html





markpulawski said:


> Taron I have a question, recently you imported what were 2 different morphs but similar Tincs. You stated definatively even though geographically these were located closely to one another they were different morphs. You implied you had insight as to the geography of these frogs yet you have never been there, do you not think the exporter wanted to sell twice as many frogs by claiming they have 2 morphs? I am not saying they are not, but putting total trust in these guys that really only desire to make a buck can lead to some damaging misinformation. You will find many of the exporters will tell someone what they want to hear in an effort to maximize the number of animals they want to export.
> I had gathered from what you stated about what you knew of the collection area that you had seen specifically what made these 2 morphs of frogs. Can you please elaborate on the info? Putting a statement in place that says "this is what the exporter told me but can not be verified, so take it for what it's worth" is a perfectly acceptable description based on what we have for most imports.
> In my opinion High Yellow Cobalts (Southern Surinam) '10 & '11 import would have been the best descriptor of these frogs.





BOOSHIFIED said:


> *disclaimer for Scott (mods) : he doesnt have a vendor feedback area*
> 
> Anyways after reading all these threads about you I and hoped that may e you were lost in your younger days. It seems as though that is not the case. I walked by your table and was quite impressed with all the frogs you had.
> 
> I then met and sold a frog to someone who had dealt with you not more then six months ago. You claimed you sold him a pair. It was not. You claimed you had a guarantee. You did not honor it. I am not surprised. I had just hoped that I would be ableto come to my own conclusions but with your track record (that I includes recent transgressions) I cannot.
> 
> I myself have been sold a "probable pair" from another DB member and I will never forget him. Why? Because even with limited noob knowledge I was able to figure out it was not a pair. Instead it was someone trying to pull some BS on me. This is why I feel connected to this particular case.
> 
> While I don't wish any harm on anyone I do hope that noobs can see you for what you are. Being one of the few froggers that was at the RSS I am ashamed that you are the first person that most noobs will meet and trust.
> 
> Drunken rampage over.




Casper


----------



## SmackoftheGods

zBrinks said:


> IME, there tends to be more hobbyists/pseudo-businesses spreading bad information than businesses that do it, at least full time. I've heard some pretty awful information spread at shows, and seldom was it from an actual business. Animals should never be 'pushed' on a customer - they are either ready for them or they are not, and impulse buys end up not only harming the animal, but do not make financial sense in the long run (at least, if you are concerned about customer satisfaction).
> 
> 
> 
> I just got back from a show across the country, where I sold 7 frogs, only 4 of which were darts. If I was actively trying to sell as many frogs as possible, without caring about where they went and how they were taken care of, I could have easily sold many, many more. Please consider that not all business practices are 'bad' business practices. Keep in mind that many who do this as a business started out as hobbyists, and figured out a way to let their passion pay for itself, and then some. Coming from a business that goes through great lengths to breed all of their own dart frogs, insure top notch animals, and provide all of the husbandry materials and information needed for their care, I see this every day. Heck, Josh still takes time at the end of the day to put the newly hatched tadpoles into cups for rearing (and we're up to 8 employees now)


Zach,

I'm only able to speak from my experience, and I would prefer not to go from a few instances to a full generalization.... I'm not opposed to all businesses in general, especially since I understand that there are those occasions that a business will pracess good business.

However, it sounds like you're misunderstanding what I had intended. See, I accept that the long standing dart-specific businesses are probably giving out good information, that's likely why they've been in business for so long. My issue is with many of those in (what I assume to be) a Taronesque situation (and I haven't had direct experience with Taron so I cannot say that this applies specifically to him, just those others I've encountered that have been in what I understand to be the same situation Taron is in). I've encountered too many people who started out as a hobbyist, but then saw (or thought they saw) some money to be had. It's when hobbyists turn business-minded that I start seeing a lot of bad information perpetuated. However, just because you vend at a show, I don't believe that this means that a person has turned business-minded. There are many hobbyists (I know more than a few) who are in this because they enjoy the hobby aspect, but have a surplus of animals and/or want to connect with newer hobbyists and make sure they get the right information. It's these people that I find typically take the time to make sure that all of the necessary information has been given, because typically, their morals (if that's what you'd like to call them) are not for sale.

This has only been my experience. Others may differ. But that's what I have against many (not all) businesses and many (not all) of those hobbyists who decide they want to start a business or pseudo-business.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Do you ever get the feeling that he is just here to stir the pot, and it doesn't matter if he is defending flippers, religious extremists, or republican extremists just as long as he can get a good argument going and piss people off, all the while cowering behind his computer screen


Personally, I usually see a reasonably well thought out opinion coming from Brotherly Monkey. I'm not saying he's always right (far from it), but personally I usually like those who present counter-arguments (as long as they're not completely idiotic). Especially when so many people agree on the same issue (often times including me) that the mindset is practically a dogmatic one. I figure if my thought process for my idea cannot stand up to criticism, then I should probably re-evaluate my idea.

I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong (personally, I've noted that, in the TD, quite a few threads turn in to Monkey and one or two other people monopolizing the threads, which is when I stop reading... so I can't say from experience whether you're absolutely right or wrong). He could very well be a troll.... All I'm saying is, I've seen so many ridiculous trolls with seemingly no real thought going through their mind on the board (especially recently), that I kind of figure Monkey is the least of my problems around here....


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## Brotherly Monkey

SmackoftheGods said:


> My issue is with many of those in (what I assume to be) a Taronesque situation (and I haven't had direct experience with Taron so I cannot say that this applies specifically to him, just those others I've encountered that have been in what I understand to be the same situation Taron is in).


fly-by-nighter, I think would be the correct term


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## Woodsman

Taron bought SMUGGLED O. sylvaticus. That's all I need to know and the end of the story for me.

Taron, you really are a little piece of shit and you deserve what you get.

Richard.


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## Taron

To be fair to everyone I will read through everything at work today and respond to each question. As yo the two questions listed both are not occurances with the actual purchaser so its hard to say. I do my best to sell sexed pairs and I can only think of two occurences where there was even a issue. Later after some advice they were seperated and put back together. At this time the pairs bred. I personally have never told anyone it was ok to mix however I have had a problem with someone doing so at the table. This did not set well with me and I did deal with it. 

As for the tinc imports I know the guy fairly well and I don't think he would lie. I am suppose to go down that way next year so I can see for myself. I plan on taking exact gps cordinants so we will know where each particular sub species occurs. 

Richard once I had found out they were acquired illegally I fealt like crap. 

I will do my best to get to every question today.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> As for the tinc imports I know the guy fairly well and I don't think he would lie. I am suppose to go down that way next year so I can see for myself. I plan on taking exact gps cordinants so we will know where each particular sub species occurs.


When did they start making subspecies of the different color populations of tinctorius?


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## mantisdragon91

Ed said:


> When did they start making subspecies of the different color populations of tinctorius?


Probably about the same time that there was a legal option to aquire Sylvaticus


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## Woodsman

"But your Honor, I had no idea that Rape was illegal".

Ignorance of the law is not a defense in a court of law. You have admitted here to committing a CRIME, Taron. May God have mercy on your soul.

Richard.



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> To be fair to everyone I will read through everything at work today and respond to each question. As yo the two questions listed both are not occurances with the actual purchaser so its hard to say. I do my best to sell sexed pairs and I can only think of two occurences where there was even a issue. Later after some advice they were seperated and put back together. At this time the pairs bred. I personally have never told anyone it was ok to mix however I have had a problem with someone doing so at the table. This did not set well with me and I did deal with it.
> 
> As for the tinc imports I know the guy fairly well and I don't think he would lie. I am suppose to go down that way next year so I can see for myself. I plan on taking exact gps cordinants so we will know where each particular sub species occurs.
> 
> Richard once I had found out they were acquired illegally I fealt like crap.
> 
> I will do my best to get to every question today.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ghost vivs

Woodsman said:


> "But your Honor, I had no idea that Rape was illegal".
> 
> Ignorance of the law is not a defense in a court of law. You have admitted here to committing a CRIME, Taron. May God have mercy on your soul.
> 
> Richard.



He knew when he got them. He just felt like shit that he was lied to about their treatments.

Casper


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## Brotherly Monkey

as an aside, during my brief time in this hobby, there have been a few instances where dealing with Josh that he actually tried to talk me out of making a purchase from him, and doubt there would be any instance where he *wouldn't* try to reasonably resolve some issue with a purchase, beyond the confines of some guarantee. So I tend to shop at his store often, and have even passed up better pricing, due to the fact that I know my purchase will never turn into some complex affair, where I felt cheated ( mistakes happen. What matters is how a business attempts to resolve those mistakes)

So there is a lot to be said about the long term prospects for his business


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## Taron

Ok after reading everything I found two more questions I should answer.

Why/How my animals are packed:

Shows: I use 10 gallon totes to transport all of our animals and once at the show they are displayed in deli cups or portion cups according to size. At the end of the day they are put back into the totes and fed and taken care of. I found that this is the least stressful I can make the situation even though it requires a lot of work.

WC / CB facilties:

In order to keep contaminents seperate we keep cb and ac at two different locations. Once again this is alot of work but well worth it in the long run.


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## Ghost vivs

Answer all of them. Don't just pick the one's you want. ALL OF THEM!

Or don't you have the balls??

Casper


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## Ghost vivs

You have your shirt. I have one also...
I will ware it every time I see you, and just point to it and wave ...












Casper


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## Taron

I didn't know I was missing any. 

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## bshmerlie

Sorry if this is just a bitch session. But this has been my experience with Taron. I have bought frogs from him four different times, from tree frogs to dart frogs. I have never had any problems with any of the frogs that I have bought from him. They have all been healthy and most of the "probable pairs" that I purchased from him have begun breeding for me. One pair is just now reaching age so hopefully soon with them as well. I do however follow "very" strict quarantine procedures with all my frogs. I actually go to lengthy precautions when it comes to introducing new frogs to my Frog room. But never once has he sold me anything that has ever been sick. I have also received frogs shipped from him twice and both occasions they arrived safe. Although I don't have frogs shipped in the summer time nor in the dead of winter. I do not know him personally nor do I know anything about his past. I also don't really care to. I just buy what I think looks like healthy frogs. I've seen some pretty shabby looking frogs at shows and at Pet stores, but I have not seen that with him. He is polite when it comes to the exchange process at the shows or when you talk to him on the phone for a purchase. Everyone is up in arms about him and what he says about mixing. When I purchased my Cobalts from him in last years Pomona CA show I actually overheard him tell a customer that two different color Auratus can not be housed in the same tank. Now this is before I knew anything about the guy. 
I don't know enough about his business practices beyond this but bottom line is I have never had a problem with his frogs so I just leave it at that. Is everybody stupid at some point or emblesh something at some point in their life ...YEAH. Like starting this thread...that was pretty stupid. There's obviously too many people holding a grudge for him to actually get anything useful from this thread.


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## Ghost vivs

Ed said:


> When did they start making subspecies of the different color populations of tinctorius?


Don't forget this one...

Casper


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## Taron

definition of a sub species

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subspecies

thanks

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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> definition of a sub species
> 
> Subspecies
> 
> thanks
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Doesn't answer the question and doesn't support your position.. I again ask, when did they begin to assign subspecific rank to the different color populations of tinctorius??? 

Ed


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## Taron

By definition each different locality is a subspecies.


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## Taron

Well I guess I am basing my opinion off of the definition.

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## Taron

this quote explains my thoughts 

"If the two groups do not interbreed because of something intrinsic to their genetic make-up (perhaps green frogs do not find red frogs sexually attractive, or they breed at different times of year) then they are different species. If, on the other hand, the two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier were removed (perhaps there is a waterfall too high for frogs to scale, or the populations are far distant from one another) then they are subspecies. Other factors include differences in mating behavior or time and ecological preferences such as soil content. Note that the distinction between a species and a subspecies depends only on the likelihood that in the absence of external barriers the two populations would merge back into a single, genetically unified population. It has nothing to do with 'how different' the two groups appear to be to the human observer"

this is from wikipedia and I have read it before in my classes at missouri state.


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## Taron

I guess I should say that subspecies are not recognized by animal agencies. So if that is the point your trying to make then I understand. However sub species are used in animals to describe localities. Which are usually based on size, color, and other attributes.


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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I guess I should say that subspecies are not recognized by animal agencies. So if that is the point your trying to make then I understand. However sub species are used in animals to describe localities. Which are usually based on size, color, and other attributes.





ReptilesEtcetera said:


> By definition each different locality is a subspecies.


If they are not recognized then by definition they are not subspecies. I suggest checking the wiki page again (and perhaps clicking onto the link to the nomenclature rules) as you have clearly misunderstood not only the process but the method required and as a result are presenting bad information. 
This is why I asked when they had been elevated to subspecific status, as it is clear that the answer is that they haven't, you made a decision that they should be without any supporting evidence and did not follow the required nomenclature rules to actually prove that there is validity in elevating the different populations to subspecific status. Even if there is phenotypic variation between one or more locals that doesn't automatically mean that the populations deserve subspecific status and this has been upheld for many decades. 

Ed


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## eldalote2

He did not just reference a Wikipedia page....


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## JeremyHuff

Aren't you taught in highschool to NEVER quote Wikipedia? ANYONE can write crap in it and it can be completely wrong. As an arachnid taxonomist, I can't stand subspecies. They mean nothing as far as I am concerned. These are simply population variations.


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## Taron

I agree with you Jeremy but I guess I am not understanding your logic with sub species. Particularly in azureus which was once a species of its own but is now under tinctorius. 

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## Woodsman

Here's a question. 

If you buy smuggled endangered frogs (and admit to it on an open hobby forum), have you committed a crime?

Taron, are you a criminal? How is that for specific?

Richard.


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## JeremyHuff

Taron
Subspecies tend to be very dubious in their defining characters. In my opinion, naming subspecies is useless in a taxonomic sense. Either they are different species or not. If there are enough characters to define a subspecies, then the organism should simply be described as a different species. Azureus was sloppy taxonomy and should never have been separated. It is obviously the same species and just a population variant. Color is almost never a good taxonomic character and should only be used as a contribution to the description. Unless the organismic population are clones, color always is variable within a population. Most taxonomists today are working to correct and either elevate or synonomize subspecies.


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## poison beauties

I think this question applies to all who have had many of the hobby's Brazilian frogs and a few others. Many frogs in the past were smuggled in, I consider those who are buying them to at the most be contributors to the unneeded smuggling and crimes but not criminals unless they did the work or actually asked for the frogs to be taken out illegally.

Michael


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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I agree with you Jeremy but I guess I am not understanding your logic with sub species. Particularly in azureus which was once a species of its own but is now under tinctorius.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


If you don't understand it, then how can you agree with it? 

Ed


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## Ed

JeremyHuff said:


> Taron
> Subspecies tend to be very dubious in their defining characters. In my opinion, naming subspecies is useless in a taxonomic sense. Either they are different species or not. If there are enough characters to define a subspecies, then the organism should simply be described as a different species. Azureus was sloppy taxonomy and should never have been separated. It is obviously the same species and just a population variant. Color is almost never a good taxonomic character and should only be used as a contribution to the description. Unless the organismic population are clones, color always is variable within a population. Most taxonomists today are working to correct and either elevate or synonomize subspecies.


And when azureus was reduced from species rank, it wasn't granted subspecific status. Azureus simply became Dendrobates tinctorius.. not Dendrobates tinctorius azureus, but Dendrobates tinctorius.. The azureus label is still used by the hobby to designate a stable color variation of tinctorius from other color variations but it isn't recognized as an official designation. 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods

bshmerlie said:


> Sorry if this is just a bitch session. But this has been my experience with Taron. I have bought frogs from him four different times, from tree frogs to dart frogs. I have never had any problems with any of the frogs that I have bought from him. They have all been healthy and most of the "probable pairs" that I purchased from him have begun breeding for me. One pair is just now reaching age so hopefully soon with them as well. I do however follow "very" strict quarantine procedures with all my frogs. I actually go to lengthy precautions when it comes to introducing new frogs to my Frog room. But never once has he sold me anything that has ever been sick. I have also received frogs shipped from him twice and both occasions they arrived safe. Although I don't have frogs shipped in the summer time nor in the dead of winter. I do not know him personally nor do I know anything about his past. I also don't really care to. I just buy what I think looks like healthy frogs. I've seen some pretty shabby looking frogs at shows and at Pet stores, but I have not seen that with him. He is polite when it comes to the exchange process at the shows or when you talk to him on the phone for a purchase. Everyone is up in arms about him and what he says about mixing. When I purchased my Cobalts from him in last years Pomona CA show I actually overheard him tell a customer that two different color Auratus can not be housed in the same tank. Now this is before I knew anything about the guy.
> I don't know enough about his business practices beyond this but bottom line is I have never had a problem with his frogs so I just leave it at that. Is everybody stupid at some point or emblesh something at some point in their life ...YEAH. Like starting this thread...that was pretty stupid. There's obviously too many people holding a grudge for him to actually get anything useful from this thread.


I actually appreciate the positive feedback. It's good to not only focus on the negative.... I have a question, did you happen to get your frogs fecaled? I'm just curious... I always get my new frogs fecaled while they're in QT (I know this is currently considered "above and beyond" but I would just be curious to know if they had any parasites or if they simply appear healthy). No bad judgements from me either way, just a curiosity thing 



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> "If the two groups do not interbreed because of something intrinsic to their genetic make-up (perhaps green frogs do not find red frogs sexually attractive, or they breed at different times of year) then they are different species. If, on the other hand, the two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier were removed (perhaps there is a waterfall too high for frogs to scale, or the populations are far distant from one another) then they are subspecies.


Does this mean leucomelas, tinctorius, and auratus are all just subspecies of each other? I mean, I've seen hybrids between all three of those frogs and I know the breeders aren't conducting gene splicing experiments....


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## Woodsman

These were actual frogs smuggled from the actual tropics (please read the thread). If you don't understand the actual nature of what he did, you're not a hybridiot, but just an actual idiot, Michael.

Richard.



poison beauties said:


> I think this question applies to all who have had many of the hobby's Brazilian frogs and a few others. Many frogs in the past were smuggled in, I consider those who are buying them to at the most be contributors to the unneeded smuggling and crimes but not criminals unless they did the work or actually asked for the frogs to be taken out illegally.
> 
> Michael


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## poison beauties

I may have missed it Richard but I took it as he did not know they were indeed smuggled up front. Truth or not its another story. But unless you have an active part, or your funding and planning the smuggling I wouldn't call you a criminal over ending up with smuggled frogs. Its more of an ethical issue to me. Did I make this into a personal rant Richard? No but your asking for it calling me an idiot. But hell if its all that personal with you when I post up an opinion or thought we can debate these things at Frog Day if you like. I have kept it hobby related and still you take it to the next level. 

Michael


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## Ben Wehr

Well, when I saw there were 11 pages here I decided to give you my feed back after the first page then I'll go read some of the other comments.

In a nutshell (Maybe) 

Nice guy, seems honest but what is "seems" anyway?

*Pros*-No qualms about replacing the frogs I've purchased from him that've died.


*Cons*- Girlfriend at shows w/o Taron who doesn't know what frogs she's talking about. 

- Dumping a bunch of skinny seemingly week-old froglets into one ten gallon tank.

-mixing tinc froglets that look really simular to which I can't even tell the difference from what you say is a patricia, cobalt, ole marie.

- buying citronellas from a friend of mine which were bred from a pair of my frogs which I purchased from Roy Hunt which he's had since 97 imports and selling them as Nikkitas because their legs were black.

- Selling me frogs with worms

- having something like 4 out of 5 frogs I bought from you this year die.

- having all but one of the replacement frogs die. Feeling hopeless about another replacement or like a waste of time to bother about a refund.

- Hearing that my a local friend (experienced keeper) has gotten several frogs from you and the majority have died and replacements died.



I met Taron at a Tulsa show a few years ago. I've had several interactions with him and personally know of other people in Tulsa who've interacted with him and know of some of thier dealings, both good and bad.

With Taron it's like Petco (buyer be ware) I'll go to the Tulsa shows and get frogs that I think have a decent chance of living from the looks of them. Get them for a fair price w/o shipping costs and usually (now) medicate them after a fecal. Would I buy from him again? If he doesn't tell me to get the hell away from his table after reading this... with caution, I'd buy from him. I really don't have any other local option to see what I'm buying first hand. He's the only frog vendor at the Tulsa shows.

Well, There you go Taron.

Edit: 19 pages


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## Brotherly Monkey

Ben Wehr said:


> Well, when I saw there were 11 pages here I decided to give you my feed back after the first page then I'll go read some of the other comments.
> 
> In a nutshell (Maybe)
> 
> Nice guy, seems honest but what is "seems" anyway?
> 
> *Pros*-No qualms about replacing the frogs I've purchased from him that've died.
> 
> 
> *Cons*- Girlfriend at shows w/o Taron who doesn't know what frogs she's talking about.
> 
> - Dumping a bunch of skinny seemingly week-old froglets into one ten gallon tank.
> 
> -mixing tinc froglets that look really simular to which I can't even tell the difference from what you say is a patricia, cobalt, ole marie.
> 
> - buying citronellas from a friend of mine which were bred from a pair of my frogs which I purchased from Roy Hunt which he's had since 97 imports and selling them as Nikkitas because their legs were black.
> 
> - Selling me frogs with worms
> 
> - having something like 4 out of 5 frogs I bought from you this year die.
> 
> - having all but one of the replacement frogs die. Feeling hopeless about another replacement or like a waste of time to bother about a refund.
> 
> - Hearing that my a local friend (experienced keeper) has gotten several frogs from you and the majority have died and replacements died.
> 
> 
> 
> I met Taron at a Tulsa show a few years ago. I've had several interactions with him and personally know of other people in Tulsa who've interacted with him and know of some of thier dealings, both good and bad.
> 
> With Taron it's like Petco (buyer be ware) I'll go to the Tulsa shows and get frogs that I think have a decent chance of living from the looks of them. Get them for a fair price w/o shipping costs and usually (now) medicate them after a fecal. Would I buy from him again? If he doesn't tell me to get the hell away from his table after reading this... with caution, I'd buy from him. I really don't have any other local option to see what I'm buying first hand. He's the only frog vendor at the Tulsa shows.
> 
> Well, There you go Taron.
> 
> Edit: 19 pages



I'm sold~!!!


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## SmackoftheGods

Ben Wehr said:


> Well, when I saw there were 11 pages here I decided to give you my feed back after the first page then I'll go read some of the other comments.
> 
> In a nutshell (Maybe)
> 
> Nice guy, seems honest but what is "seems" anyway?
> 
> *Pros*-No qualms about replacing the frogs I've purchased from him that've died.
> 
> 
> *Cons*- Girlfriend at shows w/o Taron who doesn't know what frogs she's talking about.
> 
> - Dumping a bunch of skinny seemingly week-old froglets into one ten gallon tank.
> 
> -mixing tinc froglets that look really simular to which I can't even tell the difference from what you say is a patricia, cobalt, ole marie.
> 
> - buying citronellas from a friend of mine which were bred from a pair of my frogs which I purchased from Roy Hunt which he's had since 97 imports and selling them as Nikkitas because their legs were black.
> 
> - Selling me frogs with worms
> 
> - having something like 4 out of 5 frogs I bought from you this year die.
> 
> - having all but one of the replacement frogs die. Feeling hopeless about another replacement or like a waste of time to bother about a refund.
> 
> - Hearing that my a local friend (experienced keeper) has gotten several frogs from you and the majority have died and replacements died.
> 
> 
> 
> I met Taron at a Tulsa show a few years ago. I've had several interactions with him and personally know of other people in Tulsa who've interacted with him and know of some of thier dealings, both good and bad.
> 
> With Taron it's like Petco (buyer be ware) I'll go to the Tulsa shows and get frogs that I think have a decent chance of living from the looks of them. Get them for a fair price w/o shipping costs and usually (now) medicate them after a fecal. Would I buy from him again? If he doesn't tell me to get the hell away from his table after reading this... with caution, I'd buy from him. I really don't have any other local option to see what I'm buying first hand. He's the only frog vendor at the Tulsa shows.
> 
> Well, There you go Taron.
> 
> Edit: 19 pages


Seriously? After all that you'd still buy from him again?


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## Brotherly Monkey

SmackoftheGods said:


> Seriously? After all that you'd still buy from him again?


my thoughts exactly. I rather trade the cash for peace of mind


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## Woodsman

Michael,

Your interest on this board lately has been to troll around after me, making insinuations about what frogs I keep and how I keep them. You also like to try to cyber bully me by writing that you intend to beat me up at the next Frog Day (having to do it on your Facebook page, as you are too much of a coward to say such things here).

I suggest reading the Lacey Act. If you buy actual smuggled frogs (wild-caught frogs, not F5s that have been in the hobby since 1990), you are a smuggler.

Richard. (P.S. I am told I have been too harsh to you here on Db, so you won't find me taking your bait anymore).



poison beauties said:


> I may have missed it Richard but I took it as he did not know they were indeed smuggled up front. Truth or not its another story. But unless you have an active part, or your funding and planning the smuggling I wouldn't call you a criminal over ending up with smuggled frogs. Its more of an ethical issue to me. Did I make this into a personal rant Richard? No but your asking for it calling me an idiot. But hell if its all that personal with you when I post up an opinion or thought we can debate these things at Frog Day if you like. I have kept it hobby related and still you take it to the next level.
> 
> Michael


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## JeremyHuff

Don't worry Richard, I got your back at frog day (or anywhere else). 



Woodsman said:


> Michael,
> 
> Your interest on this board lately has been to troll around after me, making insinuations about what frogs I keep and how I keep them. You also like to try to cyber bully me by writing that you intend to beat me up at the next Frog Day (having to do it on your Facebook page, as you are too much of a coward to say such things here).
> 
> I suggest reading the Lacey Act. If you buy actual smuggled frogs (wild-caught frogs, not F5s that have been in the hobby since 1990), you are a smuggler.
> 
> Richard.


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## Taron

Hey Richard how did you acquire your vanzolini if I remember right in your thread they are the euro line which is documented as stolen. Whose the criminal now! In case you don't remember these are the frogs that were lost for weeks then showed up alive. Your a hypocrite! plain and simple! 

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## Ben Wehr

SmackoftheGods said:


> Seriously? After all that you'd still buy from him again?


Like I said, if he's at the show and there... well... He could very well be ruining the potential customers that I might get down the road when I vend again. I helped get several dart frog enthusiasts started in this area and I know of all the advice and help they need and they may still have a hard time.(not that Taron can't give them sound advice. He just hands them a doomed frog to go with it) I can't think of all the times I had to give up a culture of flies I really needed bc a newbee from a show calls me bc they have not had flies for 2 days and the petstore doesn't have pin heads. But that's exactly why I told them to call me and stressed the importance of starting new cultures early. Thankfully all the petcos and one other local store carries flies now.

If these people that've been buying from him for the last 3 or so years have all but a few had thier frogs die it will further perpetuate the notion that darts are hard and not good pets.

Well, anyone else want to vend Tulsa till I get my stuff up and going again?


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## Taron

To Bens comments! You intentionally crossed a cobalt and a leucomela. How you keep frogs kills them not my frogs. As a matter of fact I will post pics of how our booth is set up. Like I already stated if I wasn't around then I can't control what was occuring and I have already dealt with that. However being critiqued by a guy who crosses frogs doesn't work for me.

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## Taron

I suppose SNDF frogs were bad as well?



Ben Wehr said:


> Ok, what da dilli yo!
> 
> First, about a year ago I get 4 orange terrib juvis from SNDF, they came in great and in two days they all start twitching and keel over. I do think that might have been that the moss I used was put in a cheap (possibly rich with mysterious chemicals) black trash bag, steaming in my hot garage for a week or two. Ok, hmmm...
> 
> well, I get some more tads and juvis that I raise up for a bit and build a viv for them which would go to an aquarium maintenance customer of mine who likes frogs (4 frogs) and 4 frogs would go to a friend who has a lot of frogs and knows how to keep them.
> 
> First, my customers frogs start dissipearing and not moving as much. I search the viv for the lost frogs (2 of 4) and find one carcus. The remaining two had me quite concerned bc one just didn't move right. (back legs were a bit immobile) and the others mouth was gaping open and had what looked like a goiter on his neck. Well, they died.
> 
> I didn't get any bodies for a necropsy or fecals when they were alive.
> 
> Temps were kept under 78F and frogs were fed well with herptivit and rep cal melonogaster at least every other day.
> 
> - Second group of 4. I get a text from my friend not more than 5 days later saying that 3 of the 4 were dead over night!!!! What the Flip-Jack!!!???
> All perameters and feeding seem fine. The remaining frog seems fine.
> 
> Well now, this things got me more puzzled than a Chicken looking at a card trick.


btw this is bens recent post


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## Taron

Bens terrarium he built with the leucs and cobalts that crossed and the words came from his mouth. Btw these pics are coming from your own threads.

Next up ben a picture of the cross.

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## Taron

Better yet the whole thread

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/62199-hybrid-variation.html

Remember this at all? 



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## poison beauties

Woodsman said:


> Michael,
> 
> Your interest on this board lately has been to troll around after me, making insinuations about what frogs I keep and how I keep them. You also like to try to cyber bully me by writing that you intend to beat me up at the next Frog Day (having to do it on your Facebook page, as you are too much of a coward to say such things here).
> 
> I suggest reading the Lacey Act. If you buy actual smuggled frogs (wild-caught frogs, not F5s that have been in the hobby since 1990), you are a smuggler.
> 
> Richard. (P.S. I am told I have been too harsh to you here on Db, so you won't find me taking your bait anymore).



Ok , on this reading of the Lacey Act are you a smuggler? How are your Brazilian Yellow's and those Vanzo's doing? All smuggled bloodlines aren't they? 

As for the personal I haven't any problem telling you in public I'd like to punch you in the mouth over the personal BS you spout but I haven't once threatened you. Why you feel the need to attack me through off topic issues and through my friends is beyond me when I make it clear its your hobby related practices and teaching of it I dislike, That is all Ive ever went at you on. As for fighting you and your friend really don't want that and everyone vents to Fuck Off.......

Michael


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Woodsman said:


> You also like to try to cyber bully me by writing that you intend to beat me up at the next Frog Day (having to do it on your Facebook page, as you are too much of a coward to say such things here).


if true, that's beyond pathetic


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> To Bens comments! You intentionally crossed a cobalt and a leucomela. How you keep frogs kills them not my frogs. As a matter of fact I will post pics of how our booth is set up. Like I already stated if I wasn't around then I can't control what was occuring and I have already dealt with that. However being critiqued by a guy who crosses frogs doesn't work for me.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


what does crossing frogs have to do with the ones you sell dying off?

Seems like a transparent attempt to shift the discussion away from you and your dead/dying frogs


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Bens terrarium he built with the leucs and cobalts that crossed and the words came from his mouth. Btw these pics are coming from your own threads.
> 
> Next up ben a picture of the cross.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


which really has nothing to do with the frogs you sell, and their seeming ability to go belly up


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Better yet the whole thread
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/62199-hybrid-variation.html
> 
> Remember this at all?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


folks, don't let him transparently shift the discussion like this. If you have anything to add to the subject of that thread, do it there

PS don't take the bait Ben.


----------



## Ben Wehr

so I saw two kids playing on a playground. one said to the other "Do you think I'm retarded?" The other replied, "Yess, I do. You pull your own crap out of your pants and eat it. You spin around in circles laughing at the ground. so yeah, you're probably kinda tarded." The first retorted, "you swing upside down on the monkey bars. so I'm not listening to you and nobody else will believe you either." the other. "hey, at least I don't enjoy eatin my own crap."


----------



## Taron

He said I mixed my frogs which I do with froglets during transport so I was clearly pointing out that he has no business saying so. Also I only do so for transport. My frogs are not sick either and I can take pics of every frog on my table or better yet you can send someone else to do it. I wouldn't have a perfect feedback if I did what this liar says I do. He (Ben) is trying to start stuff because he feels he should vend at the tulsa show (motive) hence why he is lying. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Taron

btw Ben others will chime in soon you liar

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ben Wehr

...Mrs. Jackson, stepping out onto the playground shouts. "charlene! I said no more eating poopies!" Joe, while swinging upside down from the monkey bars, looks with astonishment. "I thought your name was Charlie. Not only are you a poop eating retard. You also have no balls!" ha ha ha...

then Joe broke out into song... or some sort of rap thing. " I'm sorry Mrs. Jackson... ooooooooo.... I am fo reeeeal... I didn't mean to make yo daughta cry, I apologize, a thousand times..."


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## Taron

Lol......

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Scott

Which, at this point in time (and your past), at the very worst - makes him the same as you?

s


ReptilesEtcetera said:


> btw Ben others will chime in soon you liar


----------



## Taron

It does make him just like I use to be your right. I have changed though and I hope he just looks at what he is doing and does the same.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Scott

Since when exactly?

s


ReptilesEtcetera said:


> ... I have changed though and I hope he just looks at what he is doing and does the same.


----------



## evolvstll

I understand running a business and profit. Claiming that the California shows cost you so much and that it is a vacation for you. Vending at another Southern California show within several months implies that your statement from before is not 100% accurate. Again a business is a business, just dont claim differently when your actions speak so.



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> You guys can call bs all you want I have been doing this for over 10 years and not once could I say this supports me. However I would love to say it did I just don't see that possible. I travel because I love to and the California show is our best show but it is also a vacation. The trip cost around $3,000 by the time we pay for everything. We will be lucky if we cover the costs. This is kind of a good example. We do make money from time to time but it cost a lot of money to care for what we have.
> 
> for example we have several tortoises, bearded dragons, chameleons, lots of birds, saltwater fish tanks and everything else under the sun. I pretty much feed a zoo everyweek and our cost to do so is $400-$700 depending on if its rodent feeding week. Not to mention the cost of new caging water bowls and other upkeep items. The day I can support my hobby and my family with my hobby is the day I quit my day job.
> 
> Scott what would you like me to do to show change.


----------



## Taron

That or I love California.....after all we do live in Kansas and I can assure you there is nothing to do and it sucks. 

Scott I have asked you a million times how you think I should change yet you never state how. I have even sent you a pm in which you pretty much told me to f off and get bent. I found this strange from a moderator but none the less headed your warning and dropped it. However this is an about me topic from which I am trying to draw positive and negative comments to build from. I can not build on something unless there is a suggested way to do so. 

Thank you for your input in advance.

Taron

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ben Wehr

... mean while Joe watched Charlie or is it Charlene continue to stuff her own fecal matter in her mouth, he thought to himself. " I remember Charlene say she had pictures that proved she didn't just eat everyone elses crap but actually produced her own and tried to feed it to others." recoiling from the image of that thought Joe shook his head and again wondered... but this time about the comment that soon there would be people coming to back up Charlenes claims that Joe actually does hang upside down on the monkey bars. Still, no other crap eaters to testify.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I have changed though


you keep saying this, yet we get all these negative stories that seem completely consistent with your past. And which your response to usually consists of blatantly ignoring the complaints, trying to change the subject, or some ineffectual dismissal

Honestly, it amazes me that you can't grasp how poorly you're representing yourself here


----------



## Ben Wehr

...charlene also has not denied that those were, in fact not chocolate bars she was selling at the lemon aid stand which were purchased from a friend and also that all of charlenes crap is full of strongiles, protozoa and the like.


----------



## Taron

The problem with comments that have been received is it is not from people that have ever done business with me. For instance look at my feedback from 10 years ago. It was horrible and I was not responsible. Let's look at my feedback now 46 feedbacks and not one negative......I consider that change.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Taron

I think we can all tell that ben is not mentally stable. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Ed

Woodsman said:


> These were actual frogs smuggled from the actual tropics (please read the thread). If you don't understand the actual nature of what he did, you're not a hybridiot, but just an actual idiot, Michael.
> 
> Richard.


Richard, 

This is a thread about TARON LANGOVER so if Michael and you wish to fight please take it elsewhere as it's distracting from the thread in hand. \

Ed


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Hey Richard how did you acquire your vanzolini if I remember right in your thread they are the euro line which is documented as stolen. Whose the criminal now! In case you don't remember these are the frogs that were lost for weeks then showed up alive. Your a hypocrite! plain and simple!
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Pot calling the Kettle Black? 


Ed


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> The problem with comments that have been received is it is not from people that have ever done business with me. For instance look at my feedback from 10 years ago. It was horrible and I was not responsible. Let's look at my feedback now 46 feedbacks and not one negative......I consider that change.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk




So ben hasn't don business with you and you did not have those conversations with "ghostviv"?


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I think we can all tell that ben is not mentally stable.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


And that you have presented misinformation..which when added to the past history doesn't give you a lot of crediability much less the ability to attempt to shift the discussion off of yourself. 


Ed


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I think we can all tell that ben is not mentally stable.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


actually all I see is you still trying to deflect away from Ben's criticism, without actually addressing it


signed: potential customer following this thread


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> He said I mixed my frogs which I do with froglets during transport so I was clearly pointing out that he has no business saying so. Also I only do so for transport. My frogs are not sick either and I can take pics of every frog on my table or better yet you can send someone else to do it. I wouldn't have a perfect feedback if I did what this liar says I do. He (Ben) is trying to start stuff because he feels he should vend at the tulsa show (motive) hence why he is lying.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


1) actually he said you mix frogs together that are very difficult to differentiate based on sight alone. Hence, creating a problem that you might misidentify the frogs while selling them, and that such could have a carry over effects on potential breading programs.

2) his behavior does absolutely nothing to address yours. So even if the guy was producing Japanese frog porn in his basement, the potential problems with you mixing similar morphs has not been addressed. Which seems your usual MO


PS Taron, I probably disagree with much of the general criticism you get here: "oh dear lawdy, he buys and sales frogs. Call da'padice~!!". But even as someone who doesn't have a horse in this race, I find your obvious attempts to bullshit me (as a potential customer reading this thread) beyond offensive, and Imagine my thought are shared by many who remained silent. 

SO, again, I am simply amazed how you have gone about handling this, and can only assume the worst (that the criticism is true)


----------



## Ben Wehr

man... I'm itching to get home and give a good reply when I can use my computer and not my phone.


----------



## Scott

I don't believe I was a moderator at the time Taron. I've only been a Moderator since November or so - and that was well over a year ago.

My advice is pretty simple.

*Say what you mean, and do what you say.*

No buts, ifs or other. Don't lie about what you've done in the past. If you ask me who I'm going to believe when I hear two different stories about one event (you or Cindy), I know who I'll believe. It isn't you. That's based on your past.

I also continue to note that the truth might be a tough concept for you to comprehend. That is based on what I continue to read about you here.

*Say what you mean, and do what you say.*

s


ReptilesEtcetera said:


> ... Scott I have asked you a million times how you think I should change yet you never state how. I have even sent you a pm in which you pretty much told me to f off and get bent. I found this strange from a moderator but none the less headed your warning and dropped it.


----------



## Taron

Honestly if someone is having problems telling a patricia and a cobalt apart they shouldn't be breeding frogs. There is no way I would mis identify a frog. Sorry but that's not happening. I don't care if I was drugged and barely awake I could still tell any tinc apart. Especially since I know where they came from. I even know that about half of the giant oranges you guys call giant oranges are actually crosses between a giant orange and a citronella (Richard). Yet you guys allow people to sell them. I didn't start this thread to hear people make stuff up and complain. I truly started this thread to see if any of my customers had complaints. The only two complaints come from a guy (ghostviv) who is friends with a vendor who hates me and a guy who is tryin to be a vendor. Yet I have 46 people who say I have wonderful customer service and the best frogs. Doesn't anyone else find this odd? Probably not since no one person cares to look. I can jump on a bandwagon, its not hard, which is obvious. I just hope people see through to the truth. 46 positive feedbacks for a 100% rating. I guess I am just a p.o.s. giving wrong advice. Hardly! 

Moving forward I am looking for people who care to help me not people trying to start problems.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Moving forward I am looking for people who care to help me not people trying to start problems.


I guess that means people who will help with your bank balance as when you asked about subspecific status for tinctorius you attempted to argue how you were right instead of looking to see if you were wrong... 

I find it interesting that you claim to be able to visually identify any D. tinctorius when some of the populations have variations within thier population that overlap othere populations... 

Ed


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Moving forward I am looking for people who care to help me not people trying to start problems.


which is why I keep telling you to address such criticism. 

But let's make this simple:

1) did Ben ever buy frogs from you

2) if the answer to "1)" is yes, did those frogs perish, and you feel the need to replace them?

3) if the answer to "2)" is yes, did the replacements also perish, and what did you conclude was wrong with the frogs?

PS shifting attention to Ben, or someone else, isn't actually addressing 1-3


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## Ben Wehr

picking up and scanning vet records now...


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## edwardsatc

Here's a question you've been avoiding for some time:



chinoanoah said:


> (A few months ago I spent a few hours one night googling your past  )
> 
> I'd like to see your breeding projects you say you have going on. Until then I wouldn't buy animals from you.


Surely this an easy one to handle. And ... please don't say your camera is broken ...


----------



## JeremyHuff

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I even know that about half of the giant oranges you guys call giant oranges are actually crosses between a giant orange and a citronella (Richard). Yet you guys allow people to sell them.


Taron,
I hope you are not accusing Richard of this cross! I don't know anyone who takes as meticulous notes on their animal's lineages or breeding history as Richard does. I have seen his collection first hand and am amazed at all he tracks with regards to his animals.

I am aware that Nabors got some "giant oranges" from a zoo, sold them, and later found out it was a cross and I believe he tracked down and purchased all the animals he originally sold. Where does the half of all GO number come from? Any proof whatsoever?


----------



## Tony

Woodsman said:


> I suggest reading the Lacey Act. If you buy actual smuggled frogs (wild-caught frogs, not F5s that have been in the hobby since 1990), you are a smuggler.


Call up USFW, I'm sure you have them on speed dial, and self-report as having castis. I bet they wouldn't care if they were directly smuggled or F5...


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## Ben Wehr




----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I didn't start this thread to hear people make stuff up and complain. I truly started this thread to see if any of my customers had complaints. The only two complaints come from a guy (ghostviv) who is friends with a vendor who hates me and a guy who is tryin to be a vendor. Yet I have 46 people who say I have wonderful customer service and the best frogs. Doesn't anyone else find this odd? Probably not since no one person cares to look. I can jump on a bandwagon, its not hard, which is obvious. I just hope people see through to the truth.


Ok Taron, I'm going to make this as simple as I can. 

I couldn't care less about you, I don't give two fucks if you get rich off the frogs you sell or if you vanish. I left YOUR thread alone from the start, I had nothing to say. I said all I wanted to on the other forum. I WAS done with you. 

If I'm just out to get you, I would have said something right away. But I didn't, like I said I WAS done with you.

I only posted on YOUR thread when you said that you couldn't vend at the expo because of complaints. That's bull shit! There was no tables left. Maybe Cindy might have complained about you.(most expos have vender on vendor complaints) Even if she did, could you blame her..... But that had nothing to do with it. You were not the only vender that was told no. One guy didn't find out till that morning, with his truck full of reptiles. He was pissed. Do you really think Otis would turn down your cash because of a complaint. No way in hell! 

YOU are the one that brought Cindy into this (YOUR) thread, not me! I am just calling out your bull shit !

Even then I bit my lip. YOU asked to hear the rest of it! All I did was give you what you wanted.

Now your in backpedal mode to try to minimize the damage. If you would have just said the truth I would've left YOUR thread alone. Why would I lie about"small" stuff and tell the truth about something that could get you shut down. You would think it would be just the opposite don't you?








ReptilesEtcetera said:


> This thread is about me! I would like to hear what you think of me and i dont want anything held back. I would also like to know why! It is important to know why. Also stating at what point in time ie a date.
> 
> This is going to be a thread for the ages and perfect for the thunderdome.
> 
> I would also like to hear if you have a positive thought towards me.



Also, if you didn't know how YOUR thread would turn out. Why is it in the thunderdome? And why is YOUR thread" going to be thread for the ages"



P.S. if you didn't know they were W/C why did you get mad about him telling you that he did the treatments himself? If they were C/B why would you ask if they had their treatments? If you didn't know they were W/C then why would you tell me that "the only reason I didn't bring them with me was because their legal status"???




Casper


----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Lol ur a joke down to your hunting skills and a weak link in the human society.
> 
> My balls are twice yours and I don't have to lie to kick it.
> 
> lol
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk



If you had balls you wouldn't need P.M.s 
Post it on here.


----------



## Ben Wehr

> complaints come from...a guy who is tryin to be a vendor.


*Trying? I was a vendor and have more or less been out of the hobby for a while or business anyway. I'd love to vend the same show as you bc (1) My frogs were always twice the size of yours (2) my table looks better (3) If I sell displays, they Rock! and yours look like it's a yr old tank you don't need anymore. You would make me look quite well actually*



> people who say I have wonderful customer service and the best frogs. Doesn't anyone else find this odd?


*Oooo me me... I find this quite odd????*



> The problem with comments that have been received is it is not from people that have ever done business with me.


*Uhhh...what?*



> btw Ben others will chime in soon you liar


 *Still waiting... & what did I lie about?*



> He said I mixed my frogs which I do with froglets during transport so I was clearly pointing out that he has no business saying so. Also I only do so for transport. My frogs are not sick either *If the attachment worked. I've got a vet report that says different*and I can take pics of every frog*wait, this sounds familiar. Oh yeah, bc we're still waiting for pictures of your breeders* ...he feels he should vend at the tulsa show (motive) hence why he is lying.*Jason would allow both of us to vend*





> Better yet the whole thread
> Is this a Hybrid or a variation?
> Remember this at all?


*Yeah, I remember that. I was talking about Betsy Meekers frog. How was that not clear?*



> Bens terrarium he built with the leucs and cobalts that crossed and the words came from his mouth


*No they didn't, I never produced offspring from this tank bc it was a mixed froglet tank.*



> I suppose SNDF frogs were bad as well?


*This was last summer and I stand by the assumption that it was my fault bc I left the moss I used in a trash bag in the heat for weeks and I guess the moisture, bag chemicals, heat and time caused a problem*



> I will post pics of how our booth is set up


*waiting...and how bout those breeders?*



> if I wasn't around then I can't control what was occuring


*Dude, it's your biz. Don't let your lack of control be somebody else's problem*



> However being critiqued by a guy who crosses frogs doesn't work for me.


*And the evidence is where?*

Hopefully the attachment worked. I bought 2 gb auratus from Taron on Feb 20th and took them to the vet 3/8. They had stongyles (worms) I treated them and they died. He replaced them well his girl did bc he was selling cars that weekend with a retic auratus and a gb auratus. The gb auratus died. I gave up after that.

as for his booth set up. There are 10gal tanks with a mix of froglets. with worms. If one has them they all do. and how many different homes do you think those froglets came from? Not Tarons frog room.


----------



## boabab95

taron, look, putting the blame on somebody else REALLY isn't helping...and I love how after all this back and forth, you STILL haven't even answered half the questions...


from an earlier classifieds...


> 0
> D. tinctorius patricia $40
> D. tinctorius oyapok $40
> D. tinctorius b.y.h $45
> D. leucomelas $35
> *D. leucomelas het for albino $40*
> D. auratus green and black panama $30
> D. auratus green and bronze $30


Het for albino!??!!?!? why the hell are you selling het for albino leucs??? and raising the price??? wouldn't it be the right thing to mix them in with the other leucs??? if you want to sell hets, go bother the snake hobby...


if you claim to not promote mixing and the like, shouldn't you also refrain from promoting "designer morph" or het frogs???


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

boabab95 said:


> taron, look, putting the blame on somebody else REALLY isn't helping...and I love how after all this back and forth, you STILL haven't even answered half the questions...
> 
> 
> from an earlier classifieds...
> 
> 
> Het for albino!??!!?!? why the hell are you selling het for albino leucs??? and raising the price??? wouldn't it be the right thing to mix them in with the other leucs??? if you want to sell hets, go bother the snake hobby...
> 
> 
> if you claim to not promote mixing and the like, shouldn't you also refrain from promoting "designer morph" or het frogs???


Correct me if I am wrong here, but don't people already sale designer morphs, such as banded leucs? If so, it seems rather pointless to get upset over the fellow selling "het albinos" if true


----------



## Ben Wehr

banded luecs are a natural pattern varient.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Ben Wehr said:


> banded luecs are a natural pattern varient.


so are albinos, right?


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Correct me if I am wrong here, but don't people already sale designer morphs, such as banded leucs? If so, it seems rather pointless to get upset over the fellow selling "het albinos" if true


There is a separate locale of leucs that stay banded besides the "standards leucs". Now the chocolate leucs, "sky blue azureus", "no-dot" cits, etc. could all be considered designer morphs in the hobby but many people have realized that and don't sell breed specifically for them or sell them for higher prices.
Now to get back on topic, so this doesn't become a chance for a change of subject, I would love to hear the answers to the very specific questions that have been pointed out here. 
Bryan


----------



## illinoisfrogs

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Now to get back on topic, so this doesn't become a chance for a change of subject, I would love to hear the answers to the very specific questions that have been pointed out here.
> Bryan


Agree......I've decided to grow a beard until the pics of breeding setups are posted......on a related note, I've also contacted ZZ Top to see if I can join on as a guitarist next summer!


----------



## edwardsatc

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> This thread is about me! I would like to hear what you think of me and i dont want anything held back. I would also like to know why! It is important to know why. Also stating at what point in time ie a date.
> 
> This is going to be a thread for the ages and perfect for the thunderdome.
> 
> I would also like to hear if you have a positive thought towards me.


This thread would have been more aptly named:

" How to commit business suicide "

or 

" Hey, make me look stupid, I know you can do it!"

or

" I think I'll just bend over and fuck myself "

or perhaps

" i enjoy pain, spank me some more ..."


----------



## billschwinn

edwardsatc said:


> This thread would have been more aptly named:
> 
> " How to commit business suicide "
> 
> or
> 
> " Hey, make me look stupid, I know you can do it!"
> 
> or
> 
> " I think I'll just bend over and fuck myself "
> 
> or perhaps
> 
> " i enjoy pain, spank me some more ..."


Thanks, I needed a good laugh today!


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

edwardsatc said:


> " i enjoy pain, spank me some more ..."


wait, that's kosher here~!!!


----------



## eldalote2

edwardsatc said:


> This thread would have been more aptly named:
> 
> " How to commit business suicide "
> 
> or
> 
> " Hey, make me look stupid, I know you can do it!"
> 
> or
> 
> " I think I'll just bend over and fuck myself "
> 
> or perhaps
> 
> " i enjoy pain, spank me some more ..."


Bahahaha!!!


----------



## Taron

I want up to date pics on the beard as well and can I choose how you cut it when I post pics?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Brotherly Monkey

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I want up to date pics on the beard as well and can I choose how you cut it when I post pics?
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


you're not posting any pics, and we all know it. At this point, you might as well claim that your account was hacked, like Johnny nutsack's


----------



## illinoisfrogs

chinoanoah;603420I'd like to see your breeding projects you say you have going on. Until then I wouldn't buy animals from you.[/QUOTE said:


> I wish I had started the beard on May 29th, when this was posted......because I'd have a great head start by now......you have a smartphone, and yet still no breeding pics after more than 2 months? It's not helping your credibility.


----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I have changed though










I think this about sums it up...



casper


----------



## Ben Wehr

LOL!

Ok Taron, if you're sincere and this hilarious thread is an attempt at humbly asking for people honest opinions in an effort to take an introspective look in order to cahnge... Than

Would you admit that you kept several different froglets, some of which having worms in ten gallon tanks with a paper towel on the bottom as your show display? (This April and past) Will you admit it and tell us how you've fixed these problems? Would you admit that within the last year you bought a few citronella froglets and told potential buyers as well as myself that they were Nikkita based solely on leg color?


----------



## Bcs TX

> I want up to date pics on the beard as well and can I choose how you cut it when I post pics?


Taron, I find the above very odd...
You have no problems posting pictures of your frogs in your "For Sale" ads.

-Beth


----------



## Hopkins

Too bad sponsors can't be voted off the dendroboard island.


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## Ben Wehr

Hey, If he said "Dang man, yeah, I got some froglets that died on several people and since then I've been more carefull and I've done such and such. Thanks for letting me know the first time but I had no idea the replacements died... Yeah, she said that was a cit but... and I'll do such and such... yeah, that was wrong of me. If you choose to never buy from me again I'd understand. Hey, I've also been holding young froglets I get from people even though I need to make a car payment and I'd be able to flip a quick profit by selling these small overly stressed frogs that have been toted around across contry and packed and repacked into 4oz containers 30times..."


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## jackxc925

Anybody else get a pm from him after attempting to order broms saying that he had issues with his labels and we'd get a refund and free broms?


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## JoshK

It's funny to me that the pathetic losers that recommend Taron and call themselves his friends don't have the balls to come in here and try to defend him in any way. If you don't have nice things to say about him or don't care enough to defend him then maybe you shouldn't be sending people his way. Taron knows what I think of him and I have infractions for saying what I think of him but I don't mind saying there are plenty of worse people floating around here, They've just been lucky or they're just better at hiding it.


----------



## alex111683

I'm guessing he's running away from his own thread at this point?


----------



## Ghost vivs

He is busy pairing up frogs, building vivs, raising tads,raising froglets and taking pictures of it all...


If one listens closely you can actually here the sound of his balls sucking up into his chest.


Shhhhhhhhhhhpop...



Casper


----------



## edwardsatc

Ghost vivs said:


> He is busy pairing up frogs, building vivs, raising tads,raising froglets and taking pictures of it all...
> 
> 
> If one listens closely you can actually here the sound of his balls sucking up into his chest.
> 
> 
> Shhhhhhhhhhhpop...
> 
> 
> 
> Casper


Funny how former Wisconsinites, now living in Texas, think alike !


----------



## Detrick105

WOW! 
Ok, I have talked with Taron (by email & phone), I have traded with Taron (multiple times). Every dealing I have had with Taron has been fair & the frogs healthy . All I have to say is that Taron has been fair in our dealings, and I DO NOT have a problem with Taron. Just my two cents.
So does this make me an ass too?
Steve


----------



## jackxc925

jackxc925 said:


> Anybody else get a pm from him after attempting to order broms saying that he had issues with his labels and we'd get a refund and free broms?


He refunded my money and has said he will be shipping broms to me still. 

I ordered broms from him without researching (hey it's only 20 bucks and I figured a dendroboard sponsor would be pretty reputable) 

I probably won't buy from him again though. He just has way too much of a history for me to deem it okay for me to give him money. That might have been different if this purchase had gone according to plan. I received a refund after informing him that if I didn't hear back soon I would be filing a dispute via paypal.


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## heatfreakk3

I might as well join in... and I'm going to side with detrick. I have done business with Taron many times, and none have been bad for me. Most of the frogs from him have been great with no problem. There were a couple that died here and there, but that happens in this hobby from time to time, and he either gave me a full money refund, or replaced the frog. I have also bought many plants and supplies from him, and they have all been great.

I personally think Taron is a nice, fun guy, and I will be doing business with him more. I know everyone has their own opinion though, so thats just mine.


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## Bcs TX

> There were a couple that died here and there


Chris, I have dealt with quite a few breeders and have not had a frog die "here and there" sorry not good enough of a Vendor Feedback.
Did you QT and fecal? If you did not there is a chance that the "nasties" are still in your collection, plus the possibility of cross contamination, even if he replaced the frogs there is a potential of a "vector" to contaminate the rest of your collection. 
NOT WORTH IT!

-Beth


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## Bcs TX

Ok, Taron, we have seen your W/C ads and your claim of "keeping them at a different location" from the C/B but still no pictures.......
Taron, "Prove up" I know you have a camara, plenty of pics of your frogs for sale. You know how to put up pictures of your so called "breeding operation."
You buy wholesale from others, just admit it plus the fact you do not breed your own frogs.....what is the big deal? What have you got to hide?

-Beth


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## illinoisfrogs

Bcs TX said:


> Chris, I have dealt with quite a few breeders and have not had a frog die "here and there" sorry not good enough of a Vendor Feedback.
> Did you QT and fecal? If you did not there is a chance that the "nasties" are still in your collection, plus the possibility of cross contamination, even if he replaced the frogs there is a potential of a "vector" to contaminate the rest of your collection.
> NOT WORTH IT!
> 
> -Beth


Just what I was thinking. I've never dealt with Taron, but my frogs from Patrick Nabors have never had problems!


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## poison beauties

lincolnrailers said:


> Just what I was thinking. I've never dealt with Taron, but my frogs from Patrick Nabors have never had problems!


I wouldnt compare Taron and Patrick, but what they do have in common is they dont test the frogs they sell so how do you really know you havent had problems unless you qt and test them? You cant compare not having issues with CB frogs from Patrick vs WC from Taron. I would say there is room for all to improve but as far as bashing Taron I saw we just wait it out, if no pics show up I say asking these questions in public at shows does more damage than posting anything here will. The herp hobby is rather small. Word gets around and buyers walk away when stuff like over all health and husbandry start getting debated at shows.

Michael


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## edwardsatc

poison beauties said:


> as far as bashing Taron I saw we just wait it out, if no pics show up I say asking these questions in public at shows does more damage than posting anything here will. Michael


We have waited it out - over 2 1/2 months yet no photos ...


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## poison beauties

I guess hes ''working'' on it. But aside from Casper Ive seen little bashing here on him as of late that would warrant such BS. I do get everyone screws up and gets a chance to come clean and work past it but theres been little effort to forgive and forget.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey

edwardsatc said:


> We have waited it out - over 2 1/2 months yet no photos ...


a mere oversight, I assure you


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## frogface

Brotherly Monkey said:


> a mere oversight, I assure you


There's never a bad time to see that


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## heatfreakk3

If you buy and keep enough frogs, there will be freak things that happens... When my frogs died from him (meaning only 2 or 3 that have died from him) it was not my fault, nor his. I trust Taron to tell me the truth, and we have a good friendship. I do not cross frogs, and mix and all that stuff. I do QT. I never got fecals on the frogs that died from him. By the way, I believe only 2 frogs from him have died on me, and he offered a full refund, or to replace the frogs.


Bcs TX said:


> Chris, I have dealt with quite a few breeders and have not had a frog die "here and there" sorry not good enough of a Vendor Feedback.
> Did you QT and fecal? If you did not there is a chance that the "nasties" are still in your collection, plus the possibility of cross contamination, even if he replaced the frogs there is a potential of a "vector" to contaminate the rest of your collection.
> NOT WORTH IT!
> 
> -Beth


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## Bcs TX

> I guess hes ''working'' on it. But aside from Casper Ive seen little bashing here on him as of late that would warrant such BS. I do get everyone screws up and gets a chance to come clean and work past it but theres been little effort to forgive and forget.
> 
> Michael


Michael, lets agree to disagree here... 
Casper was stating what Taron told him, Cindy stated what he told her that the frogs were NOT going to be resold but added to his "breeding project" he listed them for sale... 
Taron seems to be "working on it constantly" still no pictures......
I agree, you need to QT and test no matter who you buy your frogs from.



> If you buy and keep enough frogs, there will be freak things that happens... When my frogs died from him (meaning only 2 or 3 that have died from him) it was not my fault, nor his. I trust Taron to tell me the truth, and we have a good friendship. I do not cross frogs, and mix and all that stuff. I do QT. I never got fecals on the frogs that died from him. By the way, I believe only 2 frogs from him have died on me, and he offered a full refund, or to replace the frogs.


Must be some good "kool Aid" in OK, you buy frogs, they die, they are replaced without knowing why they died, you add the replacements to your collection.......
Where is the common sense in this?


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## Brotherly Monkey

heatfreakk3 said:


> If you buy and keep enough frogs, there will be freak things that happens... When my frogs died from him (meaning only 2 or 3 that have died from him) it was not my fault, nor his. I trust Taron to tell me the truth, and we have a good friendship. I do not cross frogs, and mix and all that stuff. I do QT. I never got fecals on the frogs that died from him. By the way, I believe only 2 frogs from him have died on me, and he offered a full refund, or to replace the frogs.


how many frogs, in total, have you purchased from him?


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## heatfreakk3

Oh lets see.. I think I have boughten probably around.. 10 or so frogs from Taron. Thats just a rough estimate though, I'll have to check my records to be 100% sure on exactly how much frogs I have boughten from Taron.


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## Hopkins

heatfreakk3 said:


> Oh lets see.. I think I have boughten probably around.. 10 or so frogs from Taron. Thats just a rough estimate though, I'll have to check my records to be 100% sure on exactly how much frogs I have boughten from Taron.


I think I have only ever had 2 or 3 frogs die on me period. That many deaths from 1 seller would make me re-evaluate a "relationship".


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## heatfreakk3

Oh no no sorry. I was saying I have probably boughten around 10 or so frogs total from Taron. Thats not how much died! Lol.


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## frogface

heatfreakk3, I really admire you for coming here to defend your friend, Taron. That shows a very good side of your character. 

I want to add to the count that I've only had one new frog die. This was one that came in sick, I knew it was sick, and, I decided to keep it and try to fix it. I failed.

Really, I don't think having multiple frogs, from one source, die is normal. 

A concern of mine is, what is killing the frogs? Have any of them (I don't mean just you heatfreak. Others have said their frogs have died too) been tested, treated before they died to find out what was going wrong?


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## Brotherly Monkey

heatfreakk3 said:


> Oh lets see.. I think I have boughten probably around.. 10 or so frogs from Taron. Thats just a rough estimate though, I'll have to check my records to be 100% sure on exactly how much frogs I have boughten from Taron.


so 20-30% of the frogs you bought from Tarron have died on you?

How long after purchase?


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## chadfarmer

i was going to buy 10 frogs from him at a show -- his frogs were very small -- so i took my money to another vendor

I am really interested in his breeding operation because i read on FC BOI that he sold a bunch of frogs to a guy that lived close to him. he tryed to get him for 2000


heres the link
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ighlight=taron 

he has changed his business name a few times from what i see


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## heatfreakk3

I just want to add 1 more thing. The 2 frogs that did die from Taron, came from a reptile show. One died the day after the show, the next died the second day after the show. I personally think it might of been due to stress possibly. 

Everything happened so quick I don't really know how I would be able to test them anyway. I don't think I even could of gotten a fecal sample from them, with them dying the next day..

Brotherly monkey: Sorry I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. This post was intended to frogface, but I think I also answered your question in it too. I'm good


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## Brotherly Monkey

heatfreakk3 said:


> I just want to add 1 more thing. The 2 frogs that did die from Taron, came from a reptile show. One died the day after the show, the next died the second day after the show. I personally think it might of been due to stress possibly.
> 
> Everything happened so quick I don't really know how I would be able to test them anyway. I don't think I even could of gotten a fecal sample from them, with them dying the next day..
> 
> Brotherly monkey: Sorry I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. This post was intended to frogface, but I think I also answered your question in it too. I'm good



have you ever experienced an issue like that before, or since? And how were the frogs transported to and from the show?


PS Ben, if you're reading this, can you give us some info on the circumstances your frogs died in?


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## heatfreakk3

Lately, Taron is the only frog guy vending at the Tulsa reptile show. Although there are every once in a while someone with a couple frogs, usually Taron is it. Before Taron, Ben actually used to vend the Tulsa shows. Ben actually got me into the hobby.

When I purchesed frogs from Taron at the show, he usuaslly had them in either deli cups, or the larger 190 oz. tubs from joshesfrogs. After I bought the frogs he usually just sent them off to me in deli cups, just like everyone else does. He usually used sphagnum moss in the cup with the frog. Now when I bought frogs from Taron while he was passing through to another show or something they were housed just like Taron said. In 10g tanks.


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## Brotherly Monkey

heatfreakk3 said:


> Lately, Taron is the only frog guy vending at the Tulsa reptile show. Although there are every once in a while someone with a couple frogs, usually Taron is it. Before Taron, Ben actually used to vend the Tulsa shows. Ben actually got me into the hobby.
> 
> When I purchesed frogs from Taron at the show, he usuaslly had them in either deli cups, or the larger 190 oz. tubs from joshesfrogs. After I bought the frogs he usually just sent them off to me in deli cups, just like everyone else does. He usually used sphagnum moss in the cup with the frog. Now when I bought frogs from Taron while he was passing through to another show or something they were housed just like Taron said. In 10g tanks.


I'm mainly trying to assess how you transported the frogs after purchase

PS have you experienced similar levels of mortality with your other dart purchases?


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## heatfreakk3

Oh, well they were sold to me in deli cups like I said. I bought them at the end of the show when I was leaving, and went straight home. When I got them home I put the frogs in a 190 oz. tub for QT.


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## Brotherly Monkey

heatfreakk3 said:


> Oh, well they were sold to me in deli cups like I said. I bought them at the end of the show when I was leaving, and went straight home. When I got them home I put the frogs in a 190 oz. tub for QT.


was it extremely hot or cold out?


PS do you normally experience similar issues?


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## Ben Wehr

frogface said:


> A concern of mine is, what is killing the frogs? Have any of them (I don't mean just you heatfreak. Others have said their frogs have died too) been tested, treated before they died to find out what was going wrong?


Yes, positive for strongyles (intestinal worms) CB gb auratus froglet in with a mix of tinc and auratus froglets in a 10gal tank at a show.



> PS Ben, if you're reading this, can you give us some info on the circumstances your frogs died in?


With the frog mentioned above (actually it was two gb auratus) They started showing signs of lethargy and a lack of intrest in food after a day or so of getting them and putting them in a 190oz temp container. Fecals and were done and fenbendazole started within the week and they never fully recovered. Lived for another couple weeks but eventually died. Taron replaced the frogs at the next show with a green and bronze and a reticulated auratus. The green and bronze went down the same was as the first two and the reticulated is healthy and one of my favorite frogs now.


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## Taron

I might as well chime in again. The frogs that died on Chris were my fault and happened because of a treatment in my water. I lost about 2/3 of my collection at that time and anyone who had said frogs had died I just did a refund. No analysis was needed because I knew what had happened. As for pics I guess I will post them but keep in mind nothing is ever good enough for you guys. Here are pics of several tanks. Enjoy the pics!



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## Taron

More in a sec 

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## Taron




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## Taron




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## Taron




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## Taron

Here is how I raise my froglets as well.










And casper last time I checked I still had balls 










This pic is a joke and I am not being a jackass its just a joke. 

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## Taron

Some other pics










And some tanks I just like of mine




























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## Taron

Btw ben your froglets had those things because you keep them on live moss that is field collected by you in Oklahoma!

The froglets I breed come out of the water and go on paper towels. 

The only way you would have purchased frogs from my with anything would be if they came from someone else . That is possible because I only breed about 50% of what I sell.



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## JeremyHuff

Taron
Do you have a lot success breeding tincs in those rubbermaids? I have always thought the constant moving and snapping lids on and off would disturb them to much. The boxes also look very small


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## boabab95

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Btw ben your froglets had those things because you keep them on live moss that is field collected by you in Oklahoma!


it looks like you do the same... i saw maybe 2 dead leaves...that weren't in the froglet tank...


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## Taron

Jeremy to be honest I don't get near the amount of eggs as the tanks. I will be really happy once the frog room is complete however. The tinctorius cages are suppose to be around a 2x2 floor plan. That should increase productivity and help out the way they look. Unfortunately I am a little strapped for the green stuff so the room is being slowly built.

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## Taron

boabab95 said:


> it looks like you do the same... i saw maybe 2 dead leaves...that weren't in the froglet tank...












The babies are on paper towels with sterilized leaves and sphagnum....not field collected moss. The moss in my terrariums with adults is from a green house in Florida and in California. There is a possibility that it could have worms but I have never personally had a issue as you can tell by my frogs.

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## Brotherly Monkey

out of curiosity, why did it take you so long to post pics?


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## boabab95

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> The babies are on paper towels with sterilized leaves and sphagnum....not field collected moss. The moss in my terrariums with adults is from a green house in Florida and in California. There is a possibility that it could have worms but I have never personally had a issue as you can tell by my frogs.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk






Not what i meant, i meant that i only saw maybe 2 dead leaves [assuming it wasnt from a plant in there] in the Non-froglet tanks, which is why i said other than the froglet tank..


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## Taron

I didn't want to and I didn't feel I should. I wanted to post pics when my room was complete. This doesn't really wow anyone. However a nice clean frog room with awesome tanks does. I guess I just strive for the best and right now I don't have the best. 



Brotherly Monkey said:


> out of curiosity, why did it take you so long to post pics?




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## Taron

boabab95 said:


> Not what i meant, i meant that i only saw maybe 2 dead leaves [assuming it wasnt from a plant in there] in the Non-froglet tanks, which is why i said other than the froglet tank..


Oh ........ ya I don't use many leaves once the pathos takes over. That's not farmed moss either that's greenhouse moss and sphagnum that is growing.

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## Ben Wehr

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Btw ben your froglets had those things because you keep them on live moss that is field collected by you in Oklahoma!


How could you make such a statement w/o seeing where it was kept? But look, you're about to say...



> The only way you would have purchased frogs from my with anything would be if they came from someone else . That is possible because I only breed about 50% of what I sell.


So which is it. Did you see that my froglets were on native moss and that's why they went down hill and had a gut load of worms and died little more than a week after purchase or is it because 50% of your frogs come from conditions which you have no crontrol over and you have no measures to see to the health of those animals once in your care?


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## Ed

Ben Wehr said:


> So which is it. Did you see that my froglets were on native moss and that's why they went down hill and had a gut load of worms and died little more than a week after purchase or is it because 50% of your frogs come from conditions which you have no crontrol over and you have no measures to see to the health of those animals once in your care?


 
Actually you left out a third scenario, that they were infected from direct or indirect contact with a frog that was infected. You need to keep in mind that he also sells wild caught amphibians (like the newly imported tinctorius or Atelopus) so contamination is also a possibility.... 

Ed


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## Taron

Scenario is possible as well although I take care to make sure that never happens and my frogs and feedback are evident of that. Look at my feedback if you think otherwise

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## Taron

Ben my problem with what your stating is that I never have problems with the frogs. Yet you do so if the worms are in my collection then why don't my frogs show signs. Plus I have pairs of auratus I probably raised from that exact group. I don't want your business anyways and I doubt jason would ever let you vend. Do your self a favor and stay away from me. 

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## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Scenario is possible as well although I take care to make sure that never happens and my frogs and feedback are evident of that. Look at my feedback if you think otherwise
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Feedback does not prove that there was no cross contamination and even a round of fecals is not indicative of a lack of cross contamination as frogs may not always shed eggs or larva. 


Ed


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## Ben Wehr

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Ben my problem with what your stating is that I never have problems with the frogs. Yet you do so if the worms are in my collection then why don't my frogs show signs. Plus I have pairs of auratus I probably raised from that exact group. I don't want your business anyways and I doubt jason would ever let you vend. Do your self a favor and stay away from me.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


Taron, I have proof that I tested a frog within days of getting it from you. You even said it was possible bc you only raise 50%. of your froglets 
also, it's possible for frogs to live months or years with worms or protozoa. It happens all the time. third, you must know something I don't but the last time I checked which was last weekend Jason and I were on good terms. lastly, I'm not sure how to take your last statement. Did you intend that to some kind of a threat by saying "do your self a favor and stay away..." or is it bc you have worms and it'd be good for everyone to keep there didtance. I'm sure it was the later bc if at all it was intended to be any kind of a threat, dude I will be all up in your business next time I see you.


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## SmackoftheGods

I abandoned this conversation a while ago and then was pulled back when I wanted to see the context of a picture I saw elsewhere.... I've got a few comments, I'm not sure how applicable they are since I"ve been away from this "conversation" for so long.



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Scenario is possible as well although I take care to make sure that never happens and my frogs and feedback are evident of that. Look at my feedback if you think otherwise
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


for some reason the iTrader is down... but I know some people who just buy broms from you.... If that's the case your iTrader report wouldn't be indicative of the frogs you sell.... You don't have a profile in the Vendor Feedback section so I can't check that.



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Ben my problem with what your stating is that I never have problems with the frogs. Yet you do so if the worms are in my collection then why don't my frogs show signs. Plus I have pairs of auratus I probably raised from that exact group. I don't want your business anyways and I doubt jason would ever let you vend. Do your self a favor and stay away from me.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


A simple successful quarantine does not necessarily mean that the frogs are not infected. I know a few breeders (even a pretty renouned one that I will not be buying from) who hold the philosophy that "if the frog looks healthy, it probably is." However, there are frogs that have parasites/pathogens that don't exhibit symptoms because they are able to maintain a balance (somewhat fight off) with those pathogens while they are well fed/"appear healthy." However, insert high levels of stress (maybe from... shipping?) and the frog is no longer able to maintain that balance (a different allocation of resources to fend off other things). All of a sudden the symptoms show. To prove that a frog is healthy one should perform fecals at least three times, one every other week (a single fecal may not be sufficient because the frog must be passing parasites in order for a fecal to manifest the condition). This is not necessarily directed at you specifically, Taron, but I think it's good information for the hobby in general....

I suspect I'm done with this thread again....


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## Woodsman

Hi Taron,

Thanks for posting the photos of your collection. It looks like you are working with some interesting species. Once you get up to full steam with your frog room, I hope you will be able to say that you can produce 100% of the frogs you sell. I think that's really the road to finding respect around a hobbyist forum.

Good luck, Richard.


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## Taron

Thank you richard and that is what I would love to do but it takes time and alot of work.



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## Bcs TX

I am going to revive this thread due to a fellow TX Frogger meeting another TX Frogger and he noticed that what Taron sold her what he called (Azureus) is actually a Hybrid, (other experienced Tinc keepers/breeders confirmed this as well) .

Buyers Beware!!!!!

Shame on you Taron!!!!!!

Hopefully the hobby can "wise up" on this Vendor/Frog Flipper and stop buying from him!


-Beth


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## zBrinks

Hi Beth,

Any chance of pictures of the 'hybrid'?


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## Bcs TX

Will PM you now Zach.


-Beth


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## Ghost vivs

Soon as I get permission I will post it.

Casper


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## Ghost vivs

zBrinks said:


> Hi Beth,
> 
> Any chance of pictures of the 'hybrid'?


Here you go. Was sold by Taron as an azureus about a year ago









Remember Taron, I was lying about those 2 different frogs you sold someone saying it was ok to mix... this is the one that lived. 

So am I still lying ...?

Casper


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## markpulawski

This deserves more detail, the frog could pass as an Azureus, did someone admit it is not?


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## Ghost vivs

He won't admit he sold them to the person in the first place. So I doubt that will happen.

Casper


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## markpulawski

No my point is unless someone for a fact knows they are hybrids speculating about a picture is way out of line. There are easily 6 or 7 morphs of Tincs that could be ID'd as 3 or 4 different morphs.


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## markpulawski

I just found out this was all speculation done on ID from a picture....way out of line to do this in public


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## Bcs TX

Mark I have never seen an azureus look like that. Have you?

So if it is not an azureus it was sold as one, the seller should know what morph he is selling.


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## swampfoxjjr

So, I am not getting involved in this other than to say that photo could easily be an Azureus. Obviously, anyone selling a frog should actually know what they are selling, but that picture does not even hint at the absolute proof of hybrid (I think cross-breed is more applicable but will use your word for ease of communication) you are claiming. Especially in a young Azureus (as that appears to be), that photo does not even appear to be outside the nominant of the morph.

Calling out Hybrid animals is not a joking matter and should not even be taken lightly in the TD. What exactly are you suggesting it was mixed with? What are you highlighting about it that leads you to believe it is not an Azureus? Is it patterning (extremely variable in the examples of the morph in country), the coloration (generally blue with a lighter shading on the back - it is not uncommon for froglets to morph with considerable amounts of yellow or even greenish tint on the back and hindquarters that fades with age), or the body type (appears to be fairly standard tinctorius body structure).

Please be more specific. All the rest of this thread reads like a giant poo flinging match between idiotic 12 year olds. If you are legitimately demonstrating sale of a hybrid with foreknowledge by the seller, it would be one of the few productive posts in 30 pages...but thus far I think this needs some significant refinement.

edit*- Not that it is the most reliable source of information in the world, but a simple google search of Dendrobates Azureus will yield literally dozens of images featuring animals that look exactly like the one posted.


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## Taron

Lol now I am selling hybrids! Would you like pics of my azureus pairs. It is not a hybrid and this is a lousy attempt to once again start Crap. Atleast others can see thru this. I won't even breed American giant oranges because they are crosses. 

How old is this frog btw because it looks to be 4-5 months old. Which would make it impossible to come from me. Also looks like someone doesn't know how to properly use supplements.


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## JeremyHuff

Who says american giant oranges are crosses? With what?


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## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Lol now I am selling hybrids! Would you like pics of my azureus pairs. It is not a hybrid and this is a lousy attempt to once again start Crap. Atleast others can see thru this. I won't even breed American giant oranges because they are crosses.
> 
> How old is this frog btw because it looks to be 4-5 months old. Which would make it impossible to come from me. Also looks like someone doesn't know how to properly use supplements.


Over a year, the supplement issue has been takin care of, now they know. The seller never told them they needed them... Some people said it looked like a hybrid, I thought the colour was off. People wanted to see the picture so I got permission to post it. I just find it ironic that its the same person I fist called you out about lying to at the TX show. I finally ran into them 2 weeks ago. They don't have enough post to reply in the TD so you will have to wait for them to reply. 

Hell I hope its not! I told the person that it may be a new river that was mislabeled. But then I looked at your frog list from that show and and new rivers were not listed.

On a side note, its a good thing the oyapack died after 3 weeks. If it lived there might have been breeding then we would have hybrids. All for a buck...hope it's worth it.


Casper


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## Bcs TX

I will admit I did jump the gun that it was a hybrid off of a picture, which was a mistake. The picture was questioned by several individuals who breed and own tincs that it was an azureus.

The frog is a year old or close to it now so the coloration is not a "juvie" coloration.

At the time of this show Taron was buying from others and reselling frogs (he is a known flipper). He contacted me and asked if I had any frogs for sale before this show.

The owner of this frog is keeping it in its own viv by itself because there are question marks on its lineage.


----------



## Taron

If it was purchased from me then there is no questions as to lineage as the frogs I sell are either ones I bred or from breeders that are well known on the board or by other breeders. I have three lines in my collection. Nabors, Schwinn, and Baltimore aquarium line. 

As for supplements when we sell them on our table I would highly doubt we would not tell the customer about them.
That would be me leaving money on the table and occording to everyone here i am only hear for the green stuff. I might as well bye a spatula and start flipping. Well known frog flipper is a little absurd as I have posted my collection and my collection is a little ridiculous to be a frog flippers. I do buy and sell when I can afford to but it is only to get new blood or to help a friend out.


----------



## Ghost vivs

Remember Taron, this was almost a year ago. So a lot has changed, hopefully ...

Casper


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## Taron

Casper I have been breeding and keeping frogs for 12 years or so. I keep records and I know exactly what frogs I had then. I had two other peoples frogs at that time and both would never cross breed. The frog is a azureus it was not properly taken care of so it is light in color. Lack of nutrition causes this all the time.


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> . Lack of nutrition causes this all the time.


I'm calling BS on this one.. Blue coloration is the result of iridipores reflecting blue light. The number and amount of iridiopores are not dietarily influenced unlike some other coloration such as yellows, and reds..... 


Ed


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## Taron

I thought blue hues fell under cyanophores? Anyways to my point if it wasn't getting its carotenoids then it would lack the colors red, yellow, and orange. This would lighten the frog. Also what book or research has shown them to have iridophore pigment cells? I would like to read the article if you wouldn't mind. I could possibly see iridiphores in the more reflective species like green sips. Probably a more noticeable one would be lower huallaga valley trivittatus. I just don't see the reflective/irredescent properties in azureus though.


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I thought blue hues fell under cyanophores? Anyways to my point if it wasn't getting its carotenoids then it would lack the colors red, yellow, and orange. This would lighten the frog. Also what book or research has shown them to have iridophore pigment cells? I would like to read the article if you wouldn't mind. I could possibly see iridiphores in the more reflective species like green sips. Probably a more noticeable one would be lower huallaga valley trivittatus. I just don't see the reflective/irredescent properties in azureus though.


Your sticking your foot so far into your mouth in a minute it's going to be sticking out of your ass... 

Blue coloration in amphibians, and specifically anurans is the result of reflecting blue wavelengths of light.. For the details I suggest Amphibian Biology I, The Integument edited by Heatwold Surrey Beatty and Sons.. you can purchase a copy from here NHBS - Amphibian Biology, Volume 1: The Integument - Edited by Harold Heatwole... It is actually about the price I spent for my copy and less than I've seen it sold for elsewhere (where it's gone for more than $300...) If you want to cheap out I suggest On the blue coloration of vertebrates[] - Bagnara - 2007 - Pigment Cell Research - Wiley Online Library

Cyanophores have only been documented in several species of fish.. and if you are going off of wikipedia.. then it is lacking in references since the person who wrote that speculated that cyanophores were in dendrobatids.. however the novel pigments in anurans (and dendrobatids) are pterins and are also not dietarily related....
Not getting carotenoids do not lighten azureus since they play no part in the pigmentation of the skin (otherwise it wouldn't be blue) so your whole diet argument is and shall ever be bullshit.. 


Ed


----------



## ChrisK

Ed said:


> Your sticking your foot so far into your mouth in a minute it's going to be sticking out of your ass...
> Ed


I Like The New Ed


----------



## Taron

i know carotenoids cause certain dendrobatids to show more color. I have watched my byh frogs change over a period of feeding them. I have never done the research and until I read the article I will say that your halfway right.

Currently reading "The pigmentary system: physiology and pathophysiology"


----------



## Taron

Just out of curiuosity Ed. Who's to say this frog isn't a hypomelanistic specimen? Just throwing that out there as a thought. I still believe this is a nutrional issue after seeing a year old frog lookig like a 4 month old.


----------



## billschwinn

ChrisK said:


> I Like The New Ed


Wow, Ed! Can I have some of your meds? Taron, while we can still see your foot, you may reconsider putting it in deeper.


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Just out of curiuosity Ed. Who's to say this frog isn't a hypomelanistic specimen? Just throwing that out there as a thought. I still believe this is a nutrional issue after seeing a year old frog lookig like a 4 month old.


 
If it was a hypomelanistic it would have lightened black pigmentation. There is nothing in that picture to indicate that it has any less melanin than a normal azureus... 
hypo= less or lowered; melanistic = black (melanin).. That frog shows nothing to indicate that it is even in the same ball park as a hypomelanisitic frog. 

Regardless of whether or not you think it should be bigger, smaller, fatter, yada yada, you made BS statements that are contraindicated by the information on the biology of anurans and then attempt to argue them. 
If you had said, you think it was small for the purported age then that would have been the best thing you could do instead of throwing crap out there that you clearly do not understand (or are just using as BS). Those statements are getting close to be worthy of a DragonSpirit1185 award... 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

Taron hypo speciman? C'mon Man!! Azureus can have a lot of variability when not bred for traits, lots of large black spots used to be very common, lighter blue, dark blue..the gamut. I even had a guy accuse me of selling him Oyopocks when he got several babies from me in the 90's, I told him to call me back in 6 months, when he did he was very happy with his frogs.


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> i know carotenoids cause certain dendrobatids to show more color. I have watched my byh frogs change over a period of feeding them. I have never done the research and until I read the article I will say that your halfway right.
> 
> Currently reading "The pigmentary system: physiology and pathophysiology"


I suggest coughing up the money to at least read the review of anuran carotenoid metabolism for TWI's Leaf Litter.. In no small part the review of the literature (which I generously shared with Alan Repashy) were partly behind the changes in carotenoid selection for his products... 
If you bothered to chase back the recommendations to for astaxanthin, you would see that I was one of the earliest people suggesting them.. I've been researching carotenoid metabolism in anurans and can back it up with specific references and articles.. 
I'm going to say I'm dubius that you are actually reading (or perhaps understanding) the above mentioned text given the error of where cyanophores are found and the lack of understanding of hypomelanism... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

billschwinn said:


> Wow, Ed! Can I have some of your meds? Taron, while we can still see your foot, you may reconsider putting it in deeper.


If your tired all the time it makes you extra cranky particularly when the topic of carotenoid metabolism has been discussed in depth several times over on the board, at places like IAD, FrogDay..... 

Ed


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## Scott

What a coincidence! You've been cranky in all of those places as well! 

s


Ed said:


> If your tired all the time it makes you extra cranky particularly when the topic of carotenoid metabolism has been discussed in depth several times over on the board, at places like IAD, FrogDay.....
> 
> Ed


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## markpulawski

Just the words carotenoid metabolism throw me off my game, makes me want to head to Zach's place, feed his terribilis WC bugs and then get the blow darts out.


----------



## Taron

I agree I don't quite understand everything we are talking about but I am trying to learn. However I was offended that they thought it was a cross so I obviuosly started reading looking for explanations as to why it would be lighter. 

My main concern obviously is that a few people associated with the dallas area and another company keep trying to cause problems just to start stuff. 

Ghostviv/Casper out of curiosity what so called Tinc expert thought it was a cross?


----------



## frogfreak

Hey Taron,

I was the first to comment on it here. Hello, fellow froggers! - Dart Frog Forum on Husbandry and Habitat Information I don't think Casper is referring to me though. I'm far from an en expert!! I was out of line. Mark P pointed that out in post #14 and I agreed in the following post.

Best

Edit: BTW I had no idea who the frog was purchased from.


----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I agree I don't quite understand everything we are talking about but I am trying to learn. However I was offended that they thought it was a cross so I obviuosly started reading looking for explanations as to why it would be lighter.
> 
> My main concern obviously is that a few people associated with the dallas area and another company keep trying to cause problems just to start stuff.
> 
> Ghostviv/Casper out of curiosity what so called Tinc expert thought it was a cross?


Your main concern is wrong. This other company you speak of HAS NOTHING to do with any of this. They have never seen this frog or know anything about it. Your name has not been brought up at any expo down here for a long time. So get it out of your head that said company is out to get you. They are over you, you should be also.

Like I said along time ago, I don't care how much $ you make or don't make, I just want you to do what you say you do. The owner of the frog is the same person that you said I was lying about. Remember, the person you told it was ok to mix frogs. That you so vehemently said that I was lying about. 

So it's not new shit, it's still the old shit.

Remember also I said this was a long time ago, so hopefully you changed.

All you have to do is fallow frogs link and you can see how everything went down.

Casper


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## Bcs TX

Taron,
It is not "The Dallas" group alone that questions you.
I will admit that you have screwed some Texans in business dealings and we do not forget and it takes action and repeated good business dealings to make us or some of us change our minds. I will admit that quite a few of us will not do business with you, of course that is our choice. Not to mention that there are plenty of reputable *breeders* of dart frogs in the state of Texas and the USA. 

The individual you sold this frog to was given bad information from the seller, YOU.
BTW some of the frogs that were sold died. Casper will have the details on that.

If you can provide information on the progeny of the frog please enlighten us, it will need to be authenticated by the person who sold you the frog etc. Until that time it will be raised as a pet and not mixed with frogs of known lineage.
Did it come from Bill Schwinn or the NAIB azureus line being 'let out', Sean Stewart volunteered at NAIB back in the '90's.

I keep records on all of my frogs, who I bought them from and their lineage along with records of who I sell them to. 
I am a hobbyist but it can be done easily on a PC along with paypal history to back it up.

Face up or shut up, as Ed has posted quite eloquently maybe you should do some research and "Your sticking your foot so far into your mouth in a minute it's going to be sticking out of your ass... "

FYI- Casper and I are not in "Dallas," Texas is a big state.

-Beth


----------



## Ed

Bcs TX said:


> Did it come from Bill Schwinn or the NAIB azureus line being 'let out', Sean Stewart volunteered at NAIB back in the '90's.


I'm not sure of the reference here but as I understand it, NAIB frogs were legitimately released to the hobby. 

Ed


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## Bcs TX

Ed I have contacted them via e-mail to get more facts.

-Beth


----------



## Ed

Bcs TX said:


> Ed I have contacted them via e-mail to get more facts.
> 
> -Beth


Have fun. 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Those statements are getting close to be worthy of a DragonSpirit1185 award...
> 
> Ed


Ahh haa ha! Oh Ed that's cold!


----------



## Ed

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> I agree I don't quite understand everything we are talking about but I am trying to learn. However I was offended that they thought it was a cross so I obviuosly started reading looking for explanations as to why it would be lighter.


Taron,

You weren't attempting to learn, you were attempting to use the "baffle them with bullshit" gambit to make the owner of the frog look negligent resulting in the pattern change and distract the discussion from the original topic. It had been pointed out at least once within the thread, that the pattern and color were well within the range of variablility of the azureus, and this attempt to distract from that discussion really makes it look like you have/had something to hide. You challenged my knowledge and demanded references which I then provided. Instead of backing off the issue at that point, you claimed to be reading


ReptilesEtcetera said:


> "The pigmentary system: physiology and pathophysiology"


 as an attempt to make it look like you were authorative instead of bullshitting... This also makes it look like you had something to hide particularly when you were clearly not versed on the topic... and you only backed off the issue when you were clearly caught out on it.. 

You claim you want to learn but when the information is presented to you, you demand proof and then attempt to discredit the data.. If you are attempting to portray yourself as a upstanding business owner, your doing a very poor job of it.

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Ahh haa ha! Oh Ed that's cold!


I was clearly cranky... 

Ed


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ed, I think you need to break out your Official Red Ryder BB Gun you got for Christmas and go shoot some ''pigeons in the park''.

Just be sure not to shoot your eye out.

John


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Ed said:


> It had been pointed out at least once within the thread, that the pattern and color were well within the range of variablility of the azureus, and this attempt to distract from that discussion really makes it look like you have/had something to hide.


He does have a point, Taron. Your attempts to defend yourself often come off as worse than the actual accusations you're attempting to address. This whole thread is rather a testament to that. 

And while you eventually posted pictures, and addressed the accusations of Ben, and others (at least I think you did), the manner you did it in left me pretty convinced that you're not someone i want to do business with (sacrificing peace of mind isn't worth a few dollars to me).

I'm not trying to bash you, and I do think some people here target you unfairly (the earlier complaint about albinos come to mind and the baseless accusations of cross breading are another). So as a word of advice, from a neutral party, you should really reconsider how you handle such things.


----------



## frogface

I'm just disappointed that he might still be telling dart frog noobs to put a bunch of different types of darts into the same 10g tank.


----------



## Bcs TX

I just got news that recently (one-two months max) Taron bought ABOUT 30 (don't know exact number, but it was more than 20, ) same color morph galacts from an Illinois breeder to flip. Taron are those part of your "breeding facility" or did you actually tell eveyone that you bought them to flip...the breeder at the time told you they were too young to be sexed, but I think you are selling pairs of them now.


----------



## billschwinn

Bcs TX said:


> I just got news that recently (one-two months max) Taron bought ABOUT 30 (don't know exact number, but it was more than 20, ) same color morph galacts from an Illinois breeder to flip. Taron are those part of your "breeding facility" or did you actually tell eveyone that you bought them to flip...the breeder at the time told you they were too young to be sexed, but I think you are selling pairs of them now.


Maybe you could help me understand your definition of Flipping. As you just said Taron bought the Galacts a few months ago, I thought the most recent definition of Flipping was turning over of inventory (Frogs) right after purchase. Has the time limit been extended to ensnare more Flippers , you described a purchase of Galacts by him, you don't even know the color but you know he is flipping them. I really am of the opinion he has pissed you off somehow and you seem to be in attack mode, it is a display of what I would say is immaturity on display. We already know he has an immature streak that is why he keeps making himself look bad by speaking without thinking.I hope at some point you find peace in your heart, Bill


----------



## Bcs TX

Bill no hate here, just trying to get Taron to admit that he BUYS large quantities of frogs as low as he can and sells them fast to ANYONE, including those without any experience to make a quick profit. As well as not giving any information (or bad information) on what care is required to keep darts. 

He has stated many times that he breeds his own frogs but we all know that he does not, at least in the recent past.

If he replies, he needs to explain the transaction.


----------



## Ed

Bcs TX said:


> Bill no hate here, just trying to get Taron to admit that he BUYS large quantities of frogs as low as he can and sells them fast to ANYONE, including those without any experience to make a quick profit.


I'm a little puzzled here.. I'm not sure that reselling frogs is automatically a bad thing... The whole idea of reselling frogs as an automatically bad thing doesn't follow in my book. Let's make a hypothetical example, I purchase 20 of the newly imported cauchero so I can ensure I get a pair. I then resell the 18 that I don't need.. How is that bad? Or is it only bad when someone does it at a business? If your running a business that as part of it's inventory, sells frogs how is that automatically a negative? 

I don't see a problem as long as the frogs are represented correctly (ie, not bred by the seller, wild caught versus captive bred)..... 




Bcs TX said:


> He has stated many times that he breeds his own frogs but we all know that he does not, at least in the recent past.


This phrase is misleading. The implication from the wording is that he "never" has bred his own frogs to sell even in the recent past. Do you have proof that he has not produced any frogs for sale or are we going on hearsay? 

Ed


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

billschwinn said:


> Has the time limit been extended to ensnare more Flippers , you described a purchase of Galacts by him, you don't even know the color but you know he is flipping them.


depends if I don't like the person or not.


----------



## Jellyman

Bcs TX said:


> Bill no hate here, just trying to get Taron to admit that he BUYS large quantities of frogs as low as he can and sells them fast to ANYONE, including those without any experience to make a quick profit. As well as not giving any information (or bad information) on what care is required to keep darts.
> 
> He has stated many times that he breeds his own frogs but we all know that he does not, at least in the recent past.
> 
> If he replies, he needs to explain the transaction.


He has already admitted in this thread that he buys frogs from other sources and sells them for a profit. He also breeds some frogs himself and sells them for a profit. I have a group of 5 leucs that he bred. Alot of people have baby frogs and it is easier to sell 20 to someone that is an established seller so they can flip them then it is to take the time to sell them 2 or 3 at a time.


----------



## billschwinn

Brotherly Monkey said:


> depends if I don't like the person or not.


This is the common denominator on all these threads ranting about Flippers. Everyone seems to have a different definition of flipping that happens to fit their current situation they are bringing to the Hobbys attention. I hope we are not the only two that see this.


----------



## frogface

I might have some of my own issues with Taron, but, flipping really isn't one of them. That's what a business person does. They buy wholesale and sell retail. It's the American way!

Now, selling someone else's frog as your own born and bred would suck, but, I'm sure Taron doesn't do that, right?


----------



## Scott

I may not be crazy about flipping - but the *only* legitimate gripe I have about it is if you're less than honest when buying frogs to flip (if you're asked what you're doing with them ... ) or selling them ("I" produced these frogs.).

s


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Well, marketing and selling them counts as working with them..... Right?


----------



## Ed

Bcs TX said:


> them fast to ANYONE, including those without any experience to make a quick profit.
> .


I think this part should also have some discussion... 

I can think of an advantage of selling the frogs quickly once you purchase them for resale.. the faster you turn over the frogs (provided they are established captive bred animals) the less stress on the frogs since all of the stress of movement etc would be over and done with the frogs being allowed to settle into their new homes. 

The second part about selling them to people without experience also has me puzzled.. IF you shouldn't sell the frogs to people without experience, how do they get experience so they can purchase dendrobatid frogs? How do you determine if a person has the "experience" to care for dendrobatid frogs? Most of the frogs do quite well if people follow the recipes provided by many sites disguised as "care sheets"... and the basics of thier care haven't changed much since the 1980s and the publication of TFH's Terrarium Animals, Breeding, Care and Maintence by Elke Zimmerman..... 

Ed


----------



## Ghost vivs

What gets me is all the lying. I REALLY don't care if people "frogflip", hell pets are Taron's business, he won't pass up making $ on pets of any kind. (That's not a jab at Taron, it's just what he does) Wholesaling frogs is not a bad thing, it's the lying about it. 

And just a note on the buyers experience, you can tell if a buyer is experienced or not in the first couple of minutes. He won't lie to someone with experience because he can't get away with it so easy. But he will lie to someone that knows little to nothing about the hobby, just to make more $. See, yes you can put those two different frogs together, people do it all the time.

These are my issue with him.

Casper


----------



## Ed

Ghost vivs said:


> What gets me is all the lying. I REALLY don't care if people "frogflip", hell pets are Taron's business, he won't pass up making $ on pets of any kind. (That's not a jab at Taron, it's just what he does) Wholesaling frogs is not a bad thing, it's the lying about it.
> 
> And just a note on the buyers experience, you can tell if a buyer is experienced or not in the first couple of minutes. He won't lie to someone with experience because he can't get away with it so easy. But he will lie to someone that knows little to nothing about the hobby, just to make more $. See, yes you can put those two different frogs together, people do it all the time.
> 
> These are my issue with him.
> 
> Casper


Misrepresentation of the care, and the origin of the frogs have little to do with whether the person is reselling the frogs or not. You can have people lie about frogs they bred themselves (sure it's a female, it's a proven breeder, and so forth) so people who resell frogs don't have a corner on that market. 

I don't think that the majority of people on this forum think it's is appropriate to lie about the frogs they are marketing.. 

Ed


----------



## Ghost vivs

Your 100% correct with that. There will always be people who lie to sell, on both sides of the coin. Unfortunately that's one thing that will always be there. And definitely not limited to just the frog hobby.

Casper


----------



## therizman2

Well I rarely wander into the TD purely because most of the time I just dont have the time or interest in reading most of the threads. Well I had a lot of time on my hands today and read I would guess 90% of the posts in here (sorry Ed, I breezed through some of yours as they can get rather wordy).

Things that everyone should agree on and just stop bring up:
1. Taron buys frogs and resells them. He is not the only person to do this, he is not the last person to do this. This IS how he makes a living. As with buying anything, espeically animals, it is buyer beware. With the modern day access to information, and the fact that most everyone has smart phones, people could quickly Google him and find out all they want to/need to know. To go along with this, people can also Google how to take care of dart frogs, and even if they are misinformed, misled, or just left without good information, they can quickily find it.
2. He has done a lot of really bad deals in his past. Will he do more? He says he is changing and wont be doing anymore deals like he has previously, so I dont see the necessity to keep bringing it up. Pretty much everyone on the board knows what he has done and they can make their own choices.
3. Feedback system has been changed, it is now obvious whether the feedback is for frogs, plants, or other supplies that he now vends as well.
4. Taron is young and sometimes quick to respond without always thinking his response through (no offense Taron, everyone can jump the gun - as shown with the pic of the Azureus). As we all should know this after reading the thread, why keep trying to see what you can get him to say next? Time to play nice children 

Now, with that out of the way. Taron, I personally am not a huge fan. I bought some frogs from you at NARBC two years ago now (Oct. 2010). When I purchased them you said they were about 2 months old. Being a somewhat experienced frog keeper (have been keeping frogs since 2002), I knew looking at them they either morphed out VERY small, or were not nearly that old. But, it was a species I had wanted for a while, and is not commonly seen for sale in the hobby. Within a month or two a couple of them died. About six months ago, another. And the two that are left are very very small for their age. I am in no way saying the ones that died are your fault, but the fact that they are still so small, I am leaning towards thinking that they were older than advertised and just very small, and most likely malnourished. Now, I am not completely blaming you, because I know that these were frogs that you were flipping/reselling. You didnt say this at the show, but at the same time at that point in time there were very few people breeding said frog, and I am 99% sure I know who you had received them from. Obviously I knew to think better, but I did it anyways, so I blame myself more than you. But in my opinion now, I much prefer buying direct from the source rather than from a middle man.

Anyways, Happy New Years and hopefully as the years build and you can continue to have better business practices you will build a better reputation for yourself. Just be honest and eat the bullet sometimes. May suck when you do it, but people will respect you more for doing it.


----------



## Bcs TX

> I am leaning towards thinking that they were older than advertised and just very small, and most likely malnourished. Now, I am not completely blaming you, because I know that these were frogs that you were flipping/reselling. You didnt say this at the show, but at the same time at that point in time there were very few people breeding said frog, and I am 99% sure I know who you had received them from. Obviously I knew to think better, but I did it anyways, so I blame myself more than you. But in my opinion now, I much prefer buying direct from the source rather than from a middle man.


Mike I have bought plants from you on several occasions and you have always sold me quality plants and given me advice on their care requirements. 
Glad you are not doing future biz with Taron (he obviously does not do the same), there are plenty of us that care for our frogs and the hobby Taron is chashing the almighty dollar, does not care about the frogs orthe hobby. 
BTW I am 96% he can not tell you where your frogs came from or the Tx frog lineage in question. He probably puts them in containers, no notes no QT, calls breeders or hobbiests 1 week from the show in their state and sees if they have frogs for sale. Curious how he QT's his special priced WC.....

Sure individuals sell frogs for a living and when going to shows to sell them, need lots to sell so buy from wholesalers or other froggers with a surplus of frogs willing to sell cheap. Why cant Taron give #1 more info on the care of darts to the buyers and some GOOD info on the care required and #2 where the heck they came from? There are plenty of breeders that sell THEIR home bred frogs at shows plus question buyers to be sure they are informed enough to take on the task of darts (I have been there and seen it in person).

Ed I am a little dissapointed in you to say the best experience is to own them and learn from experiences...
I see you address these "experiences" all of the time on DB when a frog dies due to the lack of care info from the owner. I am not willing to accept that.

Without guidence from keepers/sellers these NEW pdf owners do not know where to go, yes I studied, read went to this forum for a year bought books etc. before I bought darts, still asked alot of questions, still do.
I appreciate the help you gave me as well.
Cindy and Patrick helped along with Rich and Dr. Frye.

Bill I have heard nothing but good things about you and have heard you sell in bulk plus have not seen a classified from you here on DB for a while now.
I hope you are guarding your good reputation by not selling to Taron in the future.


-Beth


----------



## frogface

> Bill I have heard nothing but good things about you and have heard you sell in bulk plus have not seen a classified from you here on DB for a while now. I hope you are guarding your good reputation by not selling to Taron in the future.


Well if he does, then we could say that at least Taron has some quality frogs


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Bcs TX said:


> Ed I am a little dissapointed in you to say the best experience is to own them and learn from experiences...
> I see you address these "experiences" all of the time on DB when a frog dies due to the lack of care info from the owner. I am not willing to accept that.



Honestly, despite popular consensus, I've found darts rather easy to keep, and think most people tend to over complicate things
For me, the only difficult aspect of keeping them was maintaining heat and humidity within their proper range. Which was about as difficult as plugging in an AC.


----------



## illinoisfrogs

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Honestly, despite popular consensus, I've found darts rather easy to keep, and think most people tend to over complicate things
> For me, the only difficult aspect of keeping them was maintaining heat and humidity within their proper range. Which was about as difficult as plugging in an AC.


I agree. They are fairly easy to keep, if you are willing to seek out information on their care. What kills me are all of the questions in the beginner section from people who clearly have purchased a pet they know nothing about. I don't understand this at all.


----------



## Ed

lincolnrailers said:


> I agree. They are fairly easy to keep, if you are willing to seek out information on their care. What kills me are all of the questions in the beginner section from people who clearly have purchased a pet they know nothing about. I don't understand this at all.


That is not an uncommon method for people to get into something... we see it in all kinds of hobbys, and not just pets.. For those of you with a literary bent, Toad of The Wind in the Willows was known for that exact sort of thing.. so we can see that as something constant with people. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Bcs TX said:


> Ed I am a little dissapointed in you to say the best experience is to own them and learn from experiences...
> I see you address these "experiences" all of the time on DB when a frog dies due to the lack of care info from the owner. I am not willing to accept that.


As Brotherly Monkey noted, as a whole dendrobatid frogs are easy to keep and even to bred but this is also the issue since there is a heavily reliance on recipes and *particularly dogma*... 
Learning from reading and asking questions can only take you so far.. there comes a point when you have to observe, and do some trials learn to further about the animals, if you are going to give them the best care.. often the best care is not what is handed out to beginners or found in the care sheets or even many of the books on the market.... In general this is abundently clear with recommendations on feeding (which generally produces obese frogs), and aberrant or abnormal behaviors (such as obligates depositing fertile clutches while egg feeding), husbandry( "males" calling females to feed tadpoles...), and so forth.... and in learning how to provide that best care, some animals may be lost.. Before the advent of the forums when things were more commonly done via snail mail and phone calls.. there was an old adage "that success with the frogs was directly proportional to the number of frogs lost".. To some extent that is still true today. 

It is still clear that even with the forums a huge amount of dogma and just plain bad advice is still haunting the forums and internet and some people enjoy hanging onto that dogma... This is why there comes a point where the best experience is from keeping the frogs.... 

But you still haven't answered the question.. how does someone get experience keeping dart frogs if they can't purchase them to keep because they don't have experience..... I was quite clear on that since that was your statement.... And as I noted, the basic care hasn't changed since at least the early 1980s.. 

Ed


----------



## billschwinn

Beth, just so you know you don't usually see me posting adds for sale because for the last 15 years plus I have used no purchased advertising, it has been all word of mouth, quality sells itself all the time.And just so you know , there is no need for you to play Eye Spy here, Just ask in the open, I have sold him frogs before, and as far as my transactions with him they were very good, no problem pre paying with him.He has had questions from his customers as far as lineage that he has picked up the phone several times to ask for customers that questioned it.As far as anything else he is an adult, such as I am , and I am not in the babysitting buisness.I really wish you could apply your energy to something productive, instead of making sure there is drama going on. So in closing, you and I are just people, occasionally crossing paths here on DB. I would like to think it could be Civil, I am not in a popularity contest. I try to treat everyone the way I want to be treated, with respect , and I ship animals of quality that I would want to receive.in the end I feel being popular is not important to me, so that is why I have not been in any of the Frog Cliques, I find it more important to leave my mark at one frog or answering a frog in need question, I hope this takes care of any questions.


----------



## markpulawski

I do think keeping darts is easy....as long as you don't get tired of making your own food. Seems most people that get out of the hobby get sick of culturing or buying bugs, especially when they go from 1 to 8 - 10 tanks.
On a side note I see Taron added a huge list of frogs for the pamona show, it's the exact same list Josh Lucas sent me when he tried to get even on our bungled BJ deal...someone asked why the new pair of red Galacs was $100 more...well it's because that's the price list Josh sent, my guess cut and paste....not a more prolific pair as Taron mentioned.
Taron you say you want to be legit...well honesty goes a long way, a previous poster said there are times when you need to bite the bullet and you know what people will respect you for that but when you twist and manipulate it throws you right back where you started.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

The list, Mark. You just made it


----------



## markpulawski

...have to say after 20+ years, getting on the list..pretty excited!


----------



## therizman2

Bcs TX said:


> Mike I have bought plants from you on several occasions and you have always sold me quality plants and given me advice on their care requirements.
> Glad you are not doing future biz with Taron (he obviously does not do the same), there are plenty of us that care for our frogs and the hobby Taron is chashing the almighty dollar, does not care about the frogs orthe hobby.
> BTW I am 96% he can not tell you where your frogs came from or the Tx frog lineage in


Beth, the difference between Taron and I is that I first had plants and then sold them. Also, I like just having all the plants and not necessarily making it a business venture. I think that because of this, is why I go through the effort of only shipping out plants that are the quality that I would want to receive, and giving advice to make sure they thrive because it kills me when I kill plants and Im sure the people buying them want them to live as well. As far as business with Taron, I would more than likely not buy frogs from him again because I would prefer to buy from the source. If Taron ever wanted to buy plants though, Id have no issue selling to him and at the same time making sure he knew what each plant was and how to care for it. After that, would be up to him to give advice to customers. I think you just need to realize that Taron is trying to run a business and make profit. Because of this, he may not always have the time or care enough to make sure they are going to good homes like a hobbiest can. This is just business, whether you like it or not, that is how all businesses are run for the most part. Look at all of the other animals sold at those shows and the buyers are given many times absolutely horrible information. To some degree it may be a bad business practice, but none the less, it is a business to him.

Taron, maybe just type up a quick care sheet you can hand people going over all the basics. This shouldnt take you long and could make a big difference in what people think about you, and the image that you would give potential customers coming up to you at shows. I think the issue that you will always have is that long ago you created a bad reputation, repairing that will take time. Small steps showing that you do care about the animals and where they are going can make a big difference though. I cant see a caresheet taking more than an hour with the information that you should have about frogs and what you can easily access on this site and other dart frog care sites.


----------



## Ed

billschwinn said:


> , so that is why I have not been in any of the Frog Cliques, .


 
Sure you are... your another one of the old timers... 

Ed


----------



## billschwinn

Ed said:


> Sure you are... your another one of the old timers...
> 
> Ed


But not by choice!


----------



## Ed

billschwinn said:


> But not by choice!


 
That's what happens when you have a club with low admission standards...  

Ed


----------



## illinoisfrogs

markpulawski said:


> On a side note I see Taron added a huge list of frogs for the pamona show, it's the exact same list Josh Lucas sent me when he tried to get even on our bungled BJ deal...someone asked why the new pair of red Galacs was $100 more...well it's because that's the price list Josh sent, my guess cut and paste....not a more prolific pair as Taron mentioned.


Josh deserves his own thread......


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Seems like a good time to give this thread a BIG bump!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

No kidding right! Time for some popcorn.


----------



## boabab95

Did I miss something???

Edit*** found it... Doug can I have some if that popcorn? I didn't get mine ready fast enough


----------



## JPccusa

In Brazil we have a saying: "O lobo perde o pêlo, mas não perde o vício"

Here we say "Old habits die hard"


----------



## chinoanoah

Yeah, what's the latest?


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Last I checked, Jon, your issues had been resolved.... Is this no longer the case?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Sorry I missed your post Jake, my issues were resolved because the frog died.
I have no doubts there will be future issues with the Taron and the hobby as a whole.


----------



## Leahhonaker

*Reported Post by Leahhonaker*

I am Tarons ex, and I am just letting all of you know he is a shitty person and he only cares about the money, not the hobby or the preservation of the species. That is how it has been for the last three to four years, if he has a shipment he cannot afford, he claims that some if not most of the shipment has come in dead. And his friend is smuggleing frogs illegally into the states. So anyone who is buying any pumillio or any histrionicus I would beware, sure they may be healthy but wlgap is watching him so anyone he sells to they are watching you too. Just letting all of you know. 
thanks


----------



## Leahhonaker

Plus ANY questions anyone mighy have I would answer them GALDLY


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Oh how the worm turns....


----------



## Leahhonaker

Please delete my post

dart frogs, fish, plants, and tons of other critters


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Why do you want your post deleted three hours later?


----------



## frogface

Leahhonaker said:


> Please delete my post
> 
> dart frogs, fish, plants, and tons of other critters





> Why do you want your post deleted three hours later?


I'm not sure she does. The signature in the 'delete my post' post is very similar to Taron's. I suspect someone knew her log on info.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

frogface said:


> I'm not sure she does. The signature in the 'delete my post' post is very similar to Taron's. I suspect someone knew her log on info.


lol

<_____________>


----------



## frogface

Here's one:



ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Can you buy extra passes cheaper for say like a visitor oh say around june 30th july 1st
> 
> dart frogs, fish, plants, and tons of other critters





Leahhonaker said:


> Please delete my post
> 
> dart frogs, fish, plants, and tons of other critters


----------



## JJuchems

You beat me to the post Kris. 


All I can say is oh,snap. Stop paying attention a few day then wham.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey




----------



## JJuchems

frogface said:


> I'm not sure she does. The signature in the 'delete my post' post is very similar to Taron's. I suspect someone knew her log on info.


It looks to be tapatalk app/ phone signature, not the forum user cp signature.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

MasterCard presents...How much is your reputation worth to you?

Selling sick frogs? Thousands of dollars

Smuggling frogs and then selling them? 2-5 years

Hacking your ex-girlfriends account and proving your a total douchebag?
Fucking priceless!!!


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

JJuchems said:


> It looks to be tapatalk app/ phone signature, not the forum user cp signature.


the funny thing is that the clumsy attempt to conceal his tracks only added credibility to what were the angry ravings of an Ex


----------



## JJuchems

Hilarious Jon!



Brotherly Monkey said:


> the funny thing is that the clumsy attempt to conceal his tracks only added credibility to what were the angry ravings of an Ex



Yep a classic case of:


----------



## frogface

You won't find that quote on any of Leah's posts. And, yes, I did just go check them all.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I bet the right people could trace the IP adress of that series of posts.


Jason, can I get another "Oh snap!"


----------



## JJuchems

*Oooooooh, snap!*


----------



## JJuchems

It is a pretty fair assumption we all have ex's. Some break-ups went well, others have an ax to grind. Let people read her post and make their own decisions. I have no idea which category she falls in, but to have a post three hours later asking for removal with the topics "tag line/signature" only screams something fishy. And the smell is not coming from her (Leahhonaker) direction. Especially when she has no history of using a "tag line/ signature."


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Hmmm Just hypothetically...if Tarond did hack her account....I wonder if that violates the TOS and would result in a ban???


----------



## SmackoftheGods

The question was intended to draw attention to the odd behavior is all.... Taron has been on my "do not buy from" list for a long time. I suggest others do the same.... And I suggest starting something on BOI. Taron sells a lot other than darts. It'd be good give everyone else a heads up.


----------



## Shinosuke

Leahhonaker said:


> Plus ANY questions anyone mighy have I would answer them GALDLY





Leahhonaker said:


> Please delete my post
> 
> dart frogs, fish, plants, and tons of other critters


Here's a question: When was the last time you changed your passwords?

I don't know any of the backstory but this guy sounds like he'd stoop to just about any level (see above!). I'd recommend you change all your passwords to something completely new, especially your bank passwords (and pins), after you uninstall and reinstall the operating system on every computer you have. Key-loggers and screenshot / webcam hacking software is cheap and easy to install but can be difficult to detect & remove. The most sure-fire way to remove them is to wipe your computer back to factory default. If you change your passwords before wiping the computer then those keystrokes could simply be passed along.

If he's posting as you within a couple hours of your post then there's a good chance he's also spying on you. Let me know if you have any questions, I'll be glad to help.


----------



## mantisdragon91

Out of curiosity with everything we know about Taron and his history as well as current dealings why is he still allowed to advertise on this forum?


----------



## Leahhonaker

I know he has my password. And I am not terribly worried about it because I gave it to
him. I am actually pretty computer savvy so i am not worried about him "spying" on me but thanks though. I probably should have left well enough alone though. anyways what's done is done. He has done good buisness in the past even though there were some "questionable" things so I guess what I am saying is see for yourself, don't let what I said cause some huge drama thing even though I'm sure it already has. And this is actually me this time lol.


----------



## Leahhonaker

And there are a lot of people on this forum who do questionable things who just havnt got.caught yet and are considered a reputable person.


----------



## Ghost vivs

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> Richard once I had found out they were acquired illegally I fealt like crap.


Felt like crap, still doing it... care to elaborate on this?





Thanks again for this thread Taron...priceless



Casper


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Leahhonaker said:


> And there are a lot of people on this forum who do questionable things who just havnt got.caught yet and are considered a reputable person.


I am very aware of this fact. However, I don't think that just because others who haven't gotten caught yet are still treated as reputable means we should treat those who HAVE gotten caught as reputable. The others have it coming.

Support your local breeder.


----------



## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Hmmm Just hypothetically...if Tarond did hack her account....I wonder if that violates the TOS and would result in a ban???


Even if he didn't hack her account, it would be a violation and up for a ban.... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Leahhonaker said:


> And there are a lot of people on this forum who do questionable things who just havnt got.caught yet and are considered a reputable person.


The problem that now comes up (after the first two posts by the ex), is that we have no clue as to whether or not this is actually the ex-girlfriend or not... It could just as easily be Taron, who has modified his signature after getting caught with it in the earlier post....... I'm very suspicious as to the actual identity here..... 


Ed


----------



## frogface

Ed said:


> The problem that now comes up (after the first two posts by the ex), is that we have no clue as to whether or not this is actually the ex-girlfriend or not... It could just as easily be Taron, who has modified his signature after getting caught with it in the earlier post....... I'm very suspicious as to the actual identity here.....
> 
> 
> Ed


LOL I was thinking the same thing, Ed. If it had been me, haxing an account, I would have changed the PW while I was in there.


----------



## Ghost vivs

Froggergate 2012...

Documents were leaked ... 

Now the cover-up begins...

I'm just wondering if we will get the "i am not a crook" speech...



Casper


----------



## frogface

I see the posts have all been deleted. Did real Leah ask the mods for that or was it fake Leah. Interesting. Oh well, plenty of people have them copied.


----------



## SmackoftheGods

frogface said:


> I see the posts have all been deleted. Did real Leah ask the mods for that or was it fake Leah. Interesting. Oh well, plenty of people have them copied.


Or is it Dendroboard trying to cover up the slander of a sponsor. Not to start conspiracy theories, but it took them a while to take action against Chris Teem too....


----------



## JJuchems

That is not true. He has not been a sponsor for sometime now. 

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## frogface

Maybe it has more to do with this:



Leahhonaker said:


> And there are a lot of people on this forum who do questionable things who just havnt got.caught yet and are considered a reputable person.


----------



## zBrinks

SmackoftheGods said:


> Or is it Dendroboard trying to cover up the slander of a sponsor. Not to start conspiracy theories, but it took them a while to take action against Chris Teem too....


 Yes, all of us mods don't bother to take time to do anything such as gather actual concrete information about someone before we go booting them off the board.


----------



## SmackoftheGods

I knew it Zach! It IS a conspiracy :O


----------



## zBrinks

SmackoftheGods said:


> I knew it Zach! It IS a conspiracy :O


 Obviously! Now that you're on to us, I'd suggest keeping an eye out for black suvs and men in suits.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

I'm in favor of simply blaming everything on Scott.

PS enjoy your holiday, guys, and party safely


----------



## Leahhonaker

guys it really was me. I guess I just felt bad after I posted it and figured it wasn't really my place. And my password has been changed but I'm guessing no one really cares anyways lol.


----------



## frogface

Leahhonaker said:


> guys it really was me. I guess I just felt bad after I posted it and figured it wasn't really my place. And my password has been changed but I'm guessing no one really cares anyways lol.


The problem is that when someone shows themselves to be dishonest about some things, then they can't really be believed about anything. 

Sad but true.


----------



## Ed

Leahhonaker said:


> guys it really was me. I guess I just felt bad after I posted it and figured it wasn't really my place. And my password has been changed but I'm guessing no one really cares anyways lol.


Let's just say that the evidence points the other way.. particularly since the tag line suddenly showed up.... 

Ed


----------



## Marty71

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I'm in favor of simply blaming everything on Scott.
> 
> PS enjoy your holiday, guys, and party safely


As someone who rarely visits that was my thought after a quick read. 

Hope you are well, SM....


----------



## Scott

I knew I stayed out of this area for a reason. 

Hope you're well also Marty (not the Marty of MistKing ... ).

s


Marty71 said:


> As someone who rarely visits that was my thought after a quick read.
> 
> Hope you are well, SM....


----------



## Leahhonaker

well the one with the tagline was Taron but I told him it was ok to do it. All the others were me.


----------



## frogface

Well as long as his gf says it's ok, I guess the Mods shouldn't be troubling themselves with any of the fuckery going on here.


----------



## JJuchems

Leahhonaker said:


> well the one with the tagline was Taron but I told him it was ok to do it. All the others were me.


Seriously? The lack of a response from Taron, the continued post by this screen name egging on the issues.

Either way, all post under either name will be considered Taron's post.


----------



## billschwinn

frogface said:


> Well as long as his gf says it's ok, I guess the Mods shouldn't be troubling themselves with any of the fuckery going on here.


Oh my Kris! My fragile ears.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

fuckery - definition and meaning

John


----------



## MELLOWROO421

Enlightened Rogue said:


> fuckery - definition and meaning
> 
> John


This word has just been officially added to my vocabulary and ranked my all time favorite ever, even better than deuchebaggery and fucktard!!!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Credit goes to Kris for the word...I was the sick one who looked it up.

John


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Walter Sobchak wouldn't tolerate no fuckery, that's for sure. Especially on the god damned sabbath


----------



## Shinosuke




----------



## djone2

Well, I hate to revive this thread but I have been unable to message you Taron (I hope you are reading this) because your PM inbox is full. I just wanted to get some clarifications so I, along with 2 other members of the board, are curious about some Yellow Galactonotus Tadpoles that were sold to us.
The tadpoles were sold as yellow galacts and they were as healthy as they come. All five of the ones I bought have morphed into beautiful froglets.
There is only one problem, they are not yellow, they range from a orange-tinted yellow to a full pumpkin orange. 
I asked around to people who breed galacts (just to make sure this isn't an age/coloration thing, such as with terribilis') and the consensus is that the frogs I have are orange or (please say it ain't so) a mixed morph batch. I hope this was just a simple mistake and that they are simply just orange. Also, you mentioned they were Kenny Nazumi line. I searched the bowels of the Internet and cannot find that name aside from your own postings. Here are some pics of the "yellow" galacts.


----------



## frogface

Interesting

I have some orange galacts that I took in as special needs frogs. They do look yellow but compared to a yellow galact they look orange. I had someone over who saw them and asked if I was sure they weren't yellow instead of orange. They came from Sean Stewart as Orange, so Orange they are.

I wonder how many people see a yellow-ish Orange galact and decide they are Yellows? Is there a reason to do this? Yellows sell for more?


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Yellows are considered a bolder galact... It probably puts them in higher demand.


----------



## JJhuang

djone2 said:


> Well, I hate to revive this thread but I have been unable to message you Taron (I hope you are reading this) because your PM inbox is full. I just wanted to get some clarifications so I, along with 2 other members of the board, are curious about some Yellow Galactonotus Tadpoles that were sold to us.
> The tadpoles were sold as yellow galacts and they were as healthy as they come. All five of the ones I bought have morphed into beautiful froglets.
> There is only one problem, they are not yellow, they range from a orange-tinted yellow to a full pumpkin orange.
> I asked around to people who breed galacts (just to make sure this isn't an age/coloration thing, such as with terribilis') and the consensus is that the frogs I have are orange or (please say it ain't so) a mixed morph batch. I hope this was just a simple mistake and that they are simply just orange. Also, you mentioned they were Kenny Nazumi line. I searched the bowels of the Internet and cannot find that name aside from your own postings. Here are some pics of the "yellow" galacts.
> 
> I also bought a few tads from him which included some yellow glacs, 1-2 that morphed look to me to be yellow glacs as stated.


----------



## Paul G

Don't know a lot of people that know much of anything about Kenny Nazumi except apparently he is the person that mass breeds/sells darts (Galacts/Auratus/Terriblis) to Triple L. (So I have been told by several sources.)


----------



## zBrinks

There's also been some past gossip that the galacs Kenny has were possibly mixed yellows/oranges in the past. Take it for what it's worth - gossip


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Paul G said:


> Don't know a lot of people that know much of anything about Kenny Nazumi except apparently he is the person that mass breeds/sells darts (Galacts/Auratus/Terriblis) to Triple L. (So I have been told by several sources.)


you would figure someone doing that much breeding would have more of an imprint in the hobby, even if it was just buying basic supplies


----------



## fishr

Brotherly Monkey said:


> you would figure someone doing that much breeding would have more of an imprint in the hobby, even if it was just buying basic supplies


That would explain why I had so many issues with my three cobalt froglets purchased from LLL... Will never buy from them again.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Is this the same person who produces the oddball leucs that show up occasionally?


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

epiphytes etc. said:


> Is this the same person who produces the oddball leucs that show up occasionally?


what do you mean by oddball?


----------



## Dizzle21

epiphytes etc. said:


> Is this the same person who produces the oddball leucs that show up occasionally?


LLL breeds those "oddball" leucs. taron might be breeding 'their' line tho.


----------



## zBrinks

I've been told by one of the guys working at the LLL table that the leucs were coming from the same person the galacs in question came from.


----------



## Ghost vivs

So those leucs maybe more then just different looking ...

Kinda had a feeling something was amiss with all those different looking leucs.

Maybe I'm way off, but i don't think those are just leucs... way to many "different looking" ones showed up at the same time. 




zBrinks said:


> I've been told by one of the guys working at the LLL table that the leucs were coming from the same person the galacs in question came from.


----------



## zBrinks

It's possible, but who knows. I guess the easy solution is to get your frogs from people that know a bit about them, and their past history in the hobby.


----------



## zBrinks

Also, I think it's important to point out that you do have oddball animals pop up occasionally, and if those were selected for breeders, it might be passed on to their offspring. Here's an oddball 1995 import leuc I produced a couple years ago:


----------



## Ghost vivs

Yip, and you need to be thanked again for that post!



zBrinks said:


> It's possible, but who knows. I guess the easy solution is to get your frogs from people that know a bit about them, and their past history in the hobby.


----------



## Ghost vivs

Entirely possible, but unknown unfortunately.
I will error on the side of caution though. 



zBrinks said:


> Also, I think it's important to point out that you do have oddball animals pop up occasionally, and if those were selected for breeders, it might be passed on to their offspring. Here's an oddball 1995 import leuc I produced a couple years ago:


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

as an aside, I love the coloring on the legs.


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## Manuran

Just thought I would add a little to the conversation. One reason that would make it difficult to find info on this breeder, is that his last name is Izumi. I haven't spoken to Kenny in a dozen years, and have no idea what his present breeding set-up is like or what his goals are. But, I can tell you that even though his name isn't well known, he's been breeding frogs for roughly three decades. He used to be very meticulous and prided himself in producing great frogs and in large quantities. In fact, I would say he's PROBABLY the first large scale producer. He never had a large collection, but focused on a few types. If anyone remembers the mid 90's when D. leucomelas became very plentiful and easy to get, that was Kenny. Even though they would never know it, he probably help a lot of beginners get started in this hobby, by producing good quality frogs for a good price. I would think he knows better than to mix frogs and in the early 2000's he did acquire a group of yellow galactonotus that was considered to be Todd Kelley's line. Back then I thought all the yellow's were from Todd's line, but that is something I don't know as a fact.
Anyway, I think there are a lot of good hobbyists and breeders that just don't participate in forums and groups. Kenny is just one of those.


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## Ghost vivs

Thanks for the info, a little insight is better than none at all.

Casper


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## Taron

To clarify the galactonotus situation. Both frogs were purchased as Yellow Galacs from a couple in Texas and were supposedly purchased from LLL. I raised them up and bred them. A few people had a couple morph out Orange so I quit breeding that pair and tried telling everyone they were possibly hybrids. Both parents are as Yellow as they come. I couldn't tell you were the orange came from but I can tell you that they are no longer being produced. Sorry for any mistakes and I hope this helps in Clarification. Also my pairs that I raised directly from Kenny Izumi all produce 100% yellow galacs. The guy is one of the best breeders in the hobby and is very detailed and would never cross breed. I am assuming the confusion occurred later as he sells red orange and yellow. So I am assuming the mistake was made at LLL. The important thing is that everyone knows these shouldn't be bred and if you ever don't want them I will buy them back so they can't be reproduced. This is the best I can do as it was an honest mistake.


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## Taron

And to clarify I tried to make it right.


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## markpulawski

It is easy to turn a yellow frog orange by diet, I used to feed carrots to crickets and then feed Tincs, all of my Cobalts were bright orange. This could probably be done through tadpole food as well.


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## Taron

I completely agree with you Mark but for obvious reasons I broke the pair up because I didn't want a bunch of people accusing me of cross breeding. I have four types of galacs and all bred true that was the only pair that threw orange babies but were yellow.


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## ChrisK

Hey Taron, any news on that female for male swap that was supposed to go down a couple of months ago on those guaranteed pairs?


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## djone2

For the record, Taron did reach out to me and try to rectify things.


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## ChrisK

ChrisK said:


> Hey Taron, any news on that female for male swap that was supposed to go down a couple of months ago on those guaranteed pairs?


 -crickets crickets-

Anyone? Bueller?


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## Taron

I sent you a PM Chris


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## Ed

an interesting thread that goes with this one... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/327849-illegal-frogs.html

some comments 

Ed


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## S2G

Ed said:


> an interesting thread that goes with this one...
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/327849-illegal-frogs.html
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Wow. Thanks for bumping.


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