# Repashy Calcium Plus - general questions



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Hey folks,
I got Repashy Calcium Plus from US a few days ago and have several questions which didn't match existing threads:

1.)
While in the description of Repashy vitamin A it says, they are using *retinol*, I cannot find some explicit declaration for the kind of vitamin A used in Repashy Calcium Plus. It's just "vitamin A supplement".
I hope they also use retinol. Would be disappointing, if not. Can someone clearify this, pls?

2.) I'd like to know for what reason they nonetheless put *carotenes* in there. Listed ingredients are _paprika extract_ and _beta carotene_. Is there any reason for what this is essential for frogs?

3.)
In Germany we use a supplement called _Birkan powder_, which supports the frogs with *amino acids*. Does Repashy Calcium Plus contain any amino acids? I'm not familiar with food technology, so I don't know if there are amino acids in some of the natural ingredients of Repashy Calcium Plus.

4.)
And in the end: The Repashy ppl say *refrigeration* will extend product life.
Really? I used to keep my supplements in the fridge (at 45°F), okay, but does refrigeration mean to _freeze_ them? I hardly believe this, because many vitamins get destroyed when freezing.

greets,
CF


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Answers in red.



Cutterfly said:


> Hey folks,
> I got Repashy Calcium Plus from US a few days ago and have several questions which didn't match existing threads:
> 
> 1.)
> ...


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Thx for the quick answer!
I'm not sure if color enhancers which aren't based on xanthins will work, but as long as there is retinol in it I'm happy to use it.

greets,
CF


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The Calcium plus contains a percentage of SuperPig. 6% comes to mind but I'm not positive about that. SuperPig contains several different xanthins.
Astaxanthin
Capsanthin
Beta Cryptoxanthin
Zeaxanthins
Neoaxanthins
Cucurbitaxanthins
Violaxanthins
Canthaxanthins
That enough xanthins for you, my friend?  (I have the Superpig bag in front of me.)


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Yep, I think that's enough  but I'm not sure if the superpig which you mention is mixed in. 

INGREDIENTS: Calcium Carbonate, Dried Kelp, Cellulose (as carrier), Brewer’s Yeast, RoseHips, Calendula Flower, Marigold Flower Extract, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Spirulina Algae, Turmeric, Salt, Potassium Citrate, Magnesium Gluconate, Canthaxanthin, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as mold inhibitors), Natural Flavoring, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

I see canthaxanthin, but none of the other xanthins you listed. Did I miss something?

greets,
CF


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I believe some of these xanthins are components of other ingredients and therefor, not listed individually. This has caused some confusion before. I wish it were listed on the Calcium Plus label. Lets see if we can get Allen to chime in on this.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Ok, I think you're right, because as I looked at the ingredients of superpig itself I also just saw these natural ingredients and in the describtion above are mentioned all the xanthins you are talking about. 
Though it would be cool if Allen could explain which natural ingredients contain which xanthins and so on and if there exist amphibs which colors can be enhanced by carotenes and/or use carotenes as pre vitamin A (as it's said on the website). I for myself always thought only xanthins work as enhancers and retinol as vitamin A source. I know ppl who fed their frogs paprika extracts, iron oxide, etc. for years and never got any difference in color, others who provide them beta carotene as (pre) vitamin A source without any effect as amphibs cannot metabolize this, so I got a bit confused if this is some kind of "better more than less".

greets
CF


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I've submitted an email to Allen asking if he'd care to comment on it, with a link to the thread. I love that Allen is popping in here from time to time, taking an active role in seeing what it is that the hobby wants and needs.


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Definitely the sign of a really good sponsor...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Cutterfly said:


> Ok, I think you're right, because as I looked at the ingredients of superpig itself I also just saw these natural ingredients and in the describtion above are mentioned all the xanthins you are talking about.
> Though it would be cool if Allen could explain which natural ingredients contain which xanthins and so on and if there exist amphibs which colors can be enhanced by carotenes and/or use carotenes as pre vitamin A (as it's said on the website). I for myself always thought only xanthins work as enhancers and retinol as vitamin A source. I know ppl who fed their frogs paprika extracts, iron oxide, etc. for years and never got any difference in color, others who provide them beta carotene as (pre) vitamin A source without any effect as amphibs cannot metabolize this, so I got a bit confused if this is some kind of "better more than less".
> 
> greets
> CF


I have to keep saying this more frequently.. The carotenoids* are not* "color enhancers" since that would mean that we are increasing the coloration abnormally (typically beyond how the animal appears in the wild) and it also totally ignores all of the other metabolic requirements for those carotenoids... 

The only colors that are modified through diet are some reds, some oranges, some yellows.. Blues and (to at least a major extent) greens do not respond to dietary sources of pigments. This is because the blue component of those colors are due to reflected light from the iridopores. Some of the colors that may not be modified in some amphibians are due to pigments that are manufactured by the animal and stored in the appropriate chromatophore (and may be stored with the appropriate carotenoid). These are the pterins... 

Carotenoids have multiple functions in the metabolism of many animals including anurans... and they have multiple pathways for their use (for example astaxanthin is used by tadpoles as the source for vitamin A (not carotenes) but in the adult anurans these conversions tend to only be found in the eyes where it is used in oil droplets to help with vision... 

For those interested I suggest the article on it in TWI's Leaf Litter...

Ed


----------



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

So if I use Cal Plus does it make sense to use Vit A once a week?


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I think once or twice a month would be fine


----------



## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

if i use calcium plus, how often (if ever) should i use Superpig


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

B-NICE said:


> So if I use Cal Plus does it make sense to use Vit A once a week?





frogparty said:


> I think once or twice a month would be fine


I agree, unless you are seeing signs of Vitamin A deficiency, I would be careful not to overuse it. My Tarapoto showed some signs through repeated bad eggs. The Repashy Vitamin A plus quickly made a difference. I still use it on all my frogs about once a month.



goof901 said:


> if i use calcium plus, how often (if ever) should i use Superpig


You don't HAVE to use Superpig ever. It is just a color enhancer. Some people are completely happy with the color enhancement they get with just the Calcium plus. I still use my Superpig once every week or two. I like to mix it half and half with Calcium plus when I do use it.


----------



## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

I use cal plus 6x a week and vit a once a week.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Okay, think I've finally got it.
So beta carotenes are neccessary for the frogs eyes (similar to humans) but neither help to intense the frogs colors nor provide them with vitamin A, retinol provides them with vitamin A and the xanthins intense those colors which rely on inclusion while those which are based on molecular structure of the frogs skin aren't effected.

I did casually know about this, but didn't know they need small amounts of beta carotenes anyhow, thx.

Furthermore I didn't realize xanthins to be a class of carotenes, I always thought this to be something completely different, so when I read before 
_" Contains a “broad spectrum” of Carotenoids and at the minimum, the following major Astaxanthan [...]"_ 
I thought there would be many carotenes in it (broad spectrum) AND some xanthins at their minimum levels...
Now, since I know ALL of these ARE carotenes it makes much more sense for me 

greets,
CF


----------



## sampson1269 (May 4, 2010)

I was going to buy the calcium plus, but, before i do i have a question. From everything i've always knew with reptiles. You never mix vitamins with minerals til your ready to use it. I see that everyone recommends this Repashy calcium plus, yet, calcium is a mineral and its mixed with vitamin A. And explanation would be great.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

+1 for an explanation.

I myself also know this, but since I've read so often, which good experiences people made with Repashy Calcium Plus I thought I misunderstood something before.
Here in Germany common opinion is, if minerals, especially Calcium is mixed up with vitamins (except calciferol) the vitamins will oxidize to an useless stage.

greets,
CF


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Cutterfly said:


> +1 for an explanation.
> 
> I myself also know this, but since I've read so often, which good experiences people made with Repashy Calcium Plus I thought I misunderstood something before.
> Here in Germany common opinion is, if minerals, especially Calcium is mixed up with vitamins (except calciferol) the vitamins will oxidize to an useless stage.
> ...


Multivitamin powders can oxidize more rapidly due to catalyzed reactions but oxidation is going to occur regardless if there is a mineral component or not due to exposure to oxygen, humidity and warm temperatures. This means that even the non-fat soluble vitamins (like the B vitamins) breakdown as well. This is why the literature recommends replacing vitamins every six months. 

People should also keep in mind that they should be looking to use the most recently manufactured vitamin/mineral mix since none of the ones I've seen are packaged in a manner that prevents oxidation while the product sits on the shelf somewhere (they do not have the oxygen flushed from the system). If you purchase a supplement that has been sitting on the shelf for several months, it is already going to have started degrading from the ideal. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sampson1269 said:


> I was going to buy the calcium plus, but, before i do i have a question. From everything i've always knew with reptiles. You never mix vitamins with minerals til your ready to use it. I see that everyone recommends this Repashy calcium plus, yet, calcium is a mineral and its mixed with vitamin A. And explanation would be great.


Some multipart supplements are manufactured this way and have those instructions on the label because of how the calcium products interact with how the vitamin A is formulated. The calcium damages the vitamin A particles increasing the rate of oxidation. Whether this occurs or not depends totally on how the vitamin A (if present) is formulated. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Cutterfly said:


> Okay, think I've finally got it.
> So beta carotenes are neccessary for the frogs eyes (similar to humans) but neither help to intense the frogs colors nor provide them with vitamin A, retinol provides them with vitamin A and the xanthins intense those colors which rely on inclusion while those which are based on molecular structure of the frogs skin aren't effected.


No. The carotenes are not necessary for the frog's eyes. Beta carotene is important for coloration, as an antioxident and potentially immune system functions, beta carotene is also absorbed and moved to the chromatophores for use as a pigment. For it to be important for the frog's eyes, they would have to be able to modify it to rhodopsin (which contains analogs of vitamin A). See my previous post in this thread. You are correct that it appears that they cannot convert it to vitamin A. 



Cutterfly said:


> Furthermore I didn't realize xanthins to be a class of carotenes, I always thought this to be something completely different, so when I read before
> _" Contains a “broad spectrum” of Carotenoids and at the minimum, the following major Astaxanthan [...]"_
> I thought there would be many carotenes in it (broad spectrum) AND some xanthins at their minimum levels...
> Now, since I know ALL of these ARE carotenes it makes much more sense for me
> ...


Carotenes are a carotenoid, not all carotenoids are carotenes. There are many carotenoids that are not carotenes that are important for the metabolism of the frogs. There is some relevent discussion on it here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements-10.html... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> You don't HAVE to use Superpig ever. It is just a color enhancer. Some people are completely happy with the color enhancement they get with just the Calcium plus. I still use my Superpig once every week or two. I like to mix it half and half with Calcium plus when I do use it.


To repeat myself again... *It is not a color enhancer. This creates confusion about how important those carotenoids are for non-color metabolic systems.... *

Ed


----------



## sampson1269 (May 4, 2010)

Sorry for breaking into the post and thanks for the info. Sounds like a reputable brand.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> To repeat myself again... *It is not a color enhancer. This creates confusion about how important those carotenoids are for non-color metabolic systems.... *
> 
> Ed


I understand it does not "enhance" them beyond natural coloration, which we wouldn't want to do anyway. I understand too that it only helps with some reds, some yellows, and some oranges, and that it should not affect blues and greens. So what do you want to call it? Color amendment? Color correction? I used the term for 2 reasons, 1) that's simply how a lot of us think about it, to try to bring fading reds back to a natural appearance because they are missing something in captivity and 2) You're going to have to chew out Allen, too, because it is all over the bag.
"SuperPig Piment Enhancement Formula", "Our Pigment Enhancement Formula", "designed to enhance the diet and appearance".
Looking back at your first post, Ed, I see the phrase, _"The only colors that are modified through diet"_, so I will try to use the phrase "color modifier". 

I'm not trying to be a smart a** here, Ed, just explaining why I used the word. It's going to be a hard word to change though, when it's been thought of and used for so long and is all over the bag of the (possibly) best known, best selling color modifier on the market.


----------



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

@Ed: 
Thank you again for your attempts to help us others to understand the MOA of carotinoids and the thing with oxidation.

@pumilio: 
that's why I used to call them enhancers, too. When I started posting here about 3 years ago one of my first and only questions has been how to enhance the reds of trivittata offspring by optimizing the tads and froglets diet. At that time "everybody" here at dendroboard was talking about NatuRose as color enhancement, therefor I thought this to be the usual term.

So, again @Ed:
If the xanthins provided in Calcium Plus or / and Superpig don't enhance the coloration of red, orange and yellow frogs (meant as unnaturally intensing the given colors) I'd like to know if you personally think the xanthins are the origin way for frogs to get their intense reds, yellows and oranges in nature?
I ask because on the one hand it seems as if some frogs miss something within their diet in captivity (i.e. my brother keeps several pairs of wildcaught red trivitatta since many years and some of them which he thinks to be very old have lost their color (red turned to white) and after he put them on a xanthin rich diet the white turns to red again).

On the other hand I know from our anthonyi, which we keep since almost 12 years in now F6, xanthins (at least asthaxanthin, since the other ones aren't such long in the hobby) don't effect them at all, but when exposed to real daylight (i.e. in a greenhouse) they get very red. Furthermore a friend of mine who has been in the habitats of anthonyi and several ameerega found out, that the tadpoles are almost always in pools and slowly flowing streams which have high amounts of iron oxide (laverit) in their arroyos. He thinks, the reds of Epipedobates and Ameerega in nature could base on iron oxide, not on xanthins.
So do you think, xanthins are just a way for the hobby to get colors *similar* to nature or do you think there are many frogs which use the same mechanism (or just slightly different ones) to get their colors in nature?

greets,
CF


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> I understand it does not "enhance" them beyond natural coloration, which we wouldn't want to do anyway. I understand too that it only helps with some reds, some yellows, and some oranges, and that it should not affect blues and greens. So what do you want to call it? Color amendment? Color correction? I used the term for 2 reasons, 1) that's simply how a lot of us think about it, to try to bring fading reds back to a natural appearance because they are missing something in captivity and 2) You're going to have to chew out Allen, too, because it is all over the bag.
> "SuperPig Piment Enhancement Formula", "Our Pigment Enhancement Formula", "designed to enhance the diet and appearance".
> Looking back at your first post, Ed, I see the phrase, _"The only colors that are modified through diet"_, so I will try to use the phrase "color modifier".
> 
> I'm not trying to be a smart a** here, Ed, just explaining why I used the word. It's going to be a hard word to change though, when it's been thought of and used for so long and is all over the bag of the (possibly) best known, best selling color modifier on the market.


I can't help the advertising but I've had conversations with people off of the forum, who were saying that it shouldn't be used with the frogs since all it does was increase color past that of the wild frogs or that it was like feeding the frogs steroids... These opinions are reinforced when people call it enhancement since it ignores the fact that these carotenoids are very important for other facets of the metabolism of the frogs including but not limited to proper provisioning of the eggs, immune system function, vision, and development. Sequestering for pigmentation, is secondary to those other needs which is why some people report loss of color intensity over time (as carotenoids can be lost from the chromatophores to those other metabolic needs and recovery of pigmentation can be slow..). 
The constant referral by people to it as a color enhancer implies that these carotenoids do not provide any benefit to the frogs beyond pigmentation which is extremely far from the truth. As for how you refer it, instead of calling it "color enhancers" (which is technically incorrect and definitely insufficient), I'm not sure given the multiple systems for which they are important for optimal function but listing it by one of the least important to the health of the frogs is certainly not optimal. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Cutterfly said:


> So, again @Ed:
> If the xanthins provided in Calcium Plus or / and Superpig don't enhance the coloration of red, orange and yellow frogs (meant as unnaturally intensing the given colors) I'd like to know if you personally think the xanthins are the origin way for frogs to get their intense reds, yellows and oranges in nature?


We need to correct some things here, when we refer to "xanthins" we are actually referring to a wide variety of pigments which may be yellow, orange, or red.. Obviously the ones that are yellow do not help with red pigmentation and over supplying yellow can modify orange colors by diluting the red colors. 

The two most common red non-pterin pigments found in amphibians (including anurans) are astaxanthin and canthaxanthin. The other carotenoids such as lutein, and beta cryptoxanthin are yellows (much like the carotenes).



Cutterfly said:


> I ask because on the one hand it seems as if some frogs miss something within their diet in captivity (i.e. my brother keeps several pairs of wildcaught red trivitatta since many years and some of them which he thinks to be very old have lost their color (red turned to white) and after he put them on a xanthin rich diet the white turns to red again).


Prior to the suggestion of naturose (which was the result of some discussions awhile ago on frognet.org (at least here in the US) as a source for astaxanthin and canthaxanthin, all of the available supplements (and the diet) of the frogs were very deficient in those carotenoids that are utilized not only for vitamin A in the tadpoles, but sequestered for pigmentation in the adults. Since the early 1990s, virtually the only carotenoid found in supplements in any level were the carotenes (and typically gut loading diets for appliciable feeders are also very heavy in carotenes). We also know that there appears to be some competition between uptake of the various carotenoids so diets heavy in beta carotene could inhibit uptake of other carotenoids. Absorbtion of carotenoids also requires some fat in the diet (as they are carried across the membrane by the fats (which is why they also compete for uptake). Other red carotenoids like those found in paprika are poorly absorbed (in part due to thier structure and in part due to competition with carotene supplied by the peppers). 



Cutterfly said:


> On the other hand I know from our anthonyi, which we keep since almost 12 years in now F6, xanthins (at least asthaxanthin, since the other ones aren't such long in the hobby) don't effect them at all, but when exposed to real daylight (i.e. in a greenhouse) they get very red. Furthermore a friend of mine who has been in the habitats of anthonyi and several ameerega found out, that the tadpoles are almost always in pools and slowly flowing streams which have high amounts of iron oxide (laverit) in their arroyos. He thinks, the reds of Epipedobates and Ameerega in nature could base on iron oxide, not on xanthins.
> So do you think, xanthins are just a way for the hobby to get colors *similar* to nature or do you think there are many frogs which use the same mechanism (or just slightly different ones) to get their colors in nature?


To date, no studies of pigmentation of any amphibian has discovered deposits of iron oxides.... none of the pigmentation cells are adapted for storing iron oxide... Astaxanthin and canthaxanthin are important carotenoids in the metabolism of many invertebrates (terrestrial and aquatic) and as such are supplied by a number of crustaceans and arthropods. If the Epidobates were free ranging in the greenhouse, then I would look at feeder invertebrates that they were encountering in the greenhouse and ignore the impact of the light (since greenhouse glass screens out light that reacts with skin pigments in vertebrates). 

Studies on pigmentation in amphibians (across multiple taxa including anurans) indicates that carotenoids are one of the primary methods of methods of pigmentation (pterins, and iridopores are some of the others), carotenoids are not synthesized from scratch by the frogs and have to be aquired through thier diet. So yes, I do think that the correct carotenoids do supply the correct pigmentation, and that they have to be aquired through thier diet. 

For a somewhat more indepth discussion I refer those interested to the appropriate article in Leaf Litter, published by Tree Walker's International. 

Ed


----------



## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

Hey Guys,

A little late to the party, but it looks like Ed has taken the time to clarify and answer all the questions here quite thoroughly. Great read!

Allen


----------



## Robzilla56 (Aug 2, 2011)

I feel like I got a chemistry degree through that

Great info! Ed I think you should write a book....I would highlight almost every thing in it!

Robbie


----------

