# Proven pairs



## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I was just looking through the classified ads and saw two different ads selling "proven pairs" that hadn't actually even made any eggs yet let alone tadpoles and froglets. What EXACTLY is a proven pair? I know what I think it is and what it should be but maybe I'm wrong. I wonder how many people out there are pairing up a calling male with a fat frog and calling it a proven pair...


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## kthehun89 (Jul 23, 2009)

Depends on the person you are buying from honestly. some people tell the truth, others don't. My understanding is a proven pair has successfully laid and fertilized eggs. I wouldn't push it as far as having froglets or an F1 generation, because mostly that is in the hands of the keeper and not the pair.


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

Technically, (maybe not obligates) I believe a "proven pair" should mean just that. 2 frogs that have proven that there is 1 male and 1 female that can produce fertalized eggs. I think it shouldn't go past fertalized eggs. If you have a female that lays, and a male that calls, I don't think it should be called anything other than a proven male and a proven female. If they aren't working together and fertalizing eggs, I don't see them as a "proven" pair as they haven't proven that they can do the job. 
However, as a "responsible" breeder/seller, I personally feel there is much more info that should be included, and as a responsible purchaser, I feel that there are many questions that should be asked. 
I don't necessarily think that healthy offspring is the only way to be proven, only because there are so many husbandry issues that fall on us from the time of laying to morphing that can affect the well bieng of the froglets. But at the same time, if a pair is only producing cyclop froglets w 5 legs, then something is obviously wrong. That is why more info than just "proven" should be asked, and many questions should be asked before buying. 
Too bad there is a set deffinition
Mike


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I think a proven pair means that they have proven themselves to be viable breeders. A viable breeder has produced good froglets. Therefor, they should be referred to as a PROVEN PAIR, only after producing good froglets.

A calling male and a female that has produced eggs should be a SEXED PAIR.

A PROBABLE PAIR is the sellers best guess. Male may be calling or it may just be body shape and behavior. Female may be body shape and/or behavior.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> I think a proven pair means that they have proven themselves to be viable breeders. A viable breeder has produced good froglets. Therefor, they should be referred to as a PROVEN PAIR, only after producing good froglets.
> 
> A calling male and a female that has produced eggs should be a SEXED PAIR.
> 
> A PROBABLE PAIR is the sellers best guess. Male may be calling or it may just be body shape and behavior. Female may be body shape and/or behavior.


Doug you got it dead on proven pairs have produced viable babies, 100% for sure male/female but not produced is a confirmed or sexed pair but not proven....best guess is what it is.
Proven and even pairs in some adds you know means 2 frogs...buyer beware.


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## sjaakdaak (Mar 19, 2012)

They are easily recognised by them wearing matching rings









Less funny and more to the point: I guess there is actually a point in considering the addition of the condition "the pair is known to produce fertile offspring". Hybrids can be pretty viable, but they can also be at least less fertile at the same time. Would anyone sell a female _Dendrobates tinctorius_ and a male _D. leucomelas_ who've been known to produce offspring (pretty too, I must admit) as a proven pair?


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

Proven pairs absolutely are pairs that have produced viable healthy young. I have a pair of Nabors line Giant Orange that are 6yrs old. They have very sporadically produced eggs, some tads that morphed out with sls and finally 2 babys that are growing nicely. All of my frogs get the same vitamin, feeding regiment with a number of pairs throwing almost 100% viable young, so it's not husbandry. Both have always been extremely healthy, so they are considered a proven pair, even though I would be up front to a buyer about their breeding history. I had just traded BR5 a proven pair of nominat Imis and I always breath a sigh of relief when a person tells me they are getting tads. Bottom line is I rarely sell proven pairs to people that I don't somewhat know, how do I know if they are feeding the frogs properly, or keeping them in horrible conditions and then 3 months later your being trashed for misrepresenting your animals. People need to be up front and forthcoming on the product they're selling.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

There are so many different opinions on what constitutes a 'pair' that I recommend a quick description to follow. 

For example, I'll use my Lorenzos, which are definitely a pair, have produced many fertile eggs and some to tad stage. None past tad stage. These are more than a 'sexed pair' IMO. To me, a sexed pair is when you have a known male and a known female but they have not produced together. 

I would advertise my Lorenzos like this:

1.1 Lorenzo, proven (multiple fertile clutches produced but none viable past tad stage)


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> There are so many different opinions on what constitutes a 'pair' that I recommend a quick description to follow.
> 
> For example, I'll use my Lorenzos, which are definitely a pair, have produced many fertile eggs and some to tad stage. None past tad stage. These are more than a 'sexed pair' IMO. To me, a sexed pair is when you have a known male and a known female but they have not produced together.
> 
> ...


Kris I would have to argue the point, I would not call a pair that can not produce offspring proven, a confirmed or sexed pair for sure. Proven means they are viable breeders and yes with each other is a component to that equation.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Proven to me is a pair of frogs that have produced all the way through the steps of breeding. Laying,fertilizing, development, morphing and lastly healthy froglets. Through that they have proven that they are viable "proven" breeders.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

markpulawski said:


> Kris I would have to argue the point, I would not call a pair that can not produce offspring proven, a confirmed or sexed pair for sure. Proven means they are viable breeders and yes with each other is a component to that equation.


I agree. I would not like to buy a pair as "proven", only to find out their tads never make it past frog stage..........


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

And "proven" pairs is definitely a situation where I would suggest lots of research. There are plenty of shady people that advertise on here "pairs" when they know darned good and well they can't tell them apart, or they are too young, etc, etc......

Only "proven" pair I ever bought turned out to be two females......and it was from a sponsor! Shady!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

markpulawski said:


> Kris I would have to argue the point, I would not call a pair that can not produce offspring proven, a confirmed or sexed pair for sure. Proven means they are viable breeders and yes with each other is a component to that equation.


Really, I agree with you. I'd prefer a 'confirmed pair' over a 'sexed pair' though, because there is (imo) a difference between a pair that is laying clutches together and a pair that is a male grabbed from here and a female grabbed from there and put together to sell them as a pair.

I guess my point is that there is not likely to be a consensus, so, at the least, people should explain what they mean by whatever label they are giving to the frogs they are selling. And buyers need to ask specific questions, such as, 'what do you mean by proven?'


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

With regard to D. tinctorius specifically, pairs that produce tadpoles are very likely to produce good froglets (given that the owner is up on the nutritional needs of parents and offspring). The "Lorenzo" situation seems unique to me in the species and likely is resulting from some serious inbreeding. I think Kris' original description of them as a qualified proven pair is correct and I would add that the Lorenzo is apparantly a difficult morph to get to breed correctly (after adding the repashy Vitamin A suppliment, I finally have 5 tadpoles in the water, yay!)

Just a thought, Richard.


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## TropicalDartFrogs (Feb 21, 2012)

I'd like to throw my two cents in on this. 
Proven pairs are ,in my opinion, exactly that; proven to be male and female and have laid viable clutches.

That being said, in regards to the above post about SLS and undeveloping tads, I think we as a small community should always do what's right and honest in regards to what we are offering. 
I would definitely feel cheated if I buy a proven pair that cannot produce viable offspring (Of course only if I KNEW the seller was aware of the problem and never mentioned it). And the truth is that because we are a relatively small group there should be a higher standard of what you sell to 
others. 
Not all problems will be predicted but I'd always like to be made aware of any issues up front then make my decision and take the risk because I knowingly accept it. 

Anyone can sell a few frogs but I'm pretty sure once your name is crap you won't be able to sell anything.


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## Hashbaz (May 14, 2011)

My 2 cents:

Sexed pair = confirmed male and confirmed female
Proven pair = viable clutches
Proven breeding pair = healthy froglets

As others have said, "pair" appears to be very open to interpretation so good/responsible communication is very important.


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## claymore (Feb 24, 2010)

I unfortantly, am one of the guilty parties mentioned in the beginning of the post. 

In My original post in the classifeds, I just did not proof read my post before i posted it. 
However i did describe (in detail) the Pair that i am selling. 
In this hobby we have so many terms and many of the terms can be confusing.
Unfortantly the (slang) terms; proven pair, mating pair, possible pair and sexed pair can all mean different things to different people.

Having a post like this will help clarify some of these terms and be a nice referal for a later date.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

TropicalDartFrogs said:


> Anyone can sell a few frogs but I'm pretty sure once your name is crap you won't be able to sell anything.


Unfortunately, this isn't really true. The influx of new people continuously allows shady people to sell. There's always new people who aren't well informed, and since there isn't a "Don't buy from this person" list, they will be suckered if they don't research who they are buying from. Also, they can sell on kingsnake, or through their website.


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## claymore (Feb 24, 2010)

illinoisfrogs said:


> Unfortunately, this isn't really true. The influx of new people continuously allows shady people to sell. There's always new people who aren't well informed, and since there isn't a "Don't buy from this person" list, they will be suckered if they don't research who they are buying from. Also, they can sell on kingsnake, or through their website.


True there is not a actual "Don't Buy From This Person List", there are vendor review catagories in almost every Forum around though... That is why (since we are such a small community) it is very important that we give reviews on all vendor experience! 
Good or Bad, we need to know who to avoid and who is willing to go the extra mile to make the buyer/client happy.


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

It is sad that in all aspects of life there will always be somebody trying to "upsell" whatever they have, or blatently lying about what they have to make it worth more $. I think that there needs to be full disclosure from the buyer about any "issues" up front. I have been burned in the past, I guess all I can say is buyers need to do their research. Unfortunately not everybody is trustworthy. 
Mike


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## FRISCHFROGS (Jan 15, 2012)

Remember 'buyer beware' and if it is 'too good to be true' most likely it is.
Ask all your questions before.


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## asid61 (Mar 18, 2012)

This should be stickied. A very good thread for newbs like me, or in fact anyone, who is buying or selling frogs.


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