# Help with first dart frogs choice



## andrea05 (Mar 30, 2021)

hello everybody,
i am planning on starting with pdfs soon, but I really need someone to guide me through the choice of the first species to get.
so, given that:
I live in southern Italy, where Summer temperatures can get to 35-38 or even 40°C, which is 86 to 100F in the summer, so I'm pretty sure the inside temperature will be anywhere around upper 70s to mid 80s, or even higher (once the inside temperatures reached 92F).
I do have air conditioning, yet in the summer I might not be home for a few days, two weeks tops, so no one is gonna be able to turn it on during that time.
I have kept frogs before, but no darts.
I'm gonna have to keep them in my bedroom, which is where I sleep, study and work, so loud calls would be one heck of a problem ahahaha
I don't have too much horizontal space, 18"x18" being the best I can get for a vivarium, height is not a problem at all.
so, with all these requirements, what species would you think should fit best? provide as much info to support your thesis as you wish! ahahah
another question: Do males call all day long? a friend of mine had a leucomelas male that called every day from 7am to 5pm, but someone told me that's fairly atypical, and they usually call for a few hours in the early morning. is that true? and will they start after they see light, so after I wake up and open the curtains, or they'll start calling anyway if the sun is up outside even though they are in complete darkness? yet still a silent species would be preferable


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Your biggest issue in keeping any type of dart frog is keeping your temps down in the summer months. If you're unable to keep them at 80F or below reliably, then I'd say it's best to not keep them. Even short spikes of 85F+ can be fatal.

If you can get that figured out, then there are lots of Dendrobates Tinctorius to choose from. You could get up to 2 in a 18" cube or 18x18x24. Males have a low buzzing call that can be hard to hear at times.


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## Matt McLagan (Mar 30, 2021)

Anyone with experience will tell you that having a reliable means of controlling the temperature is of extreme importance. A spike in temperature can kill darts very quickly. At the very least, your AC will have to always be on if the inside temperature is going to be above 80 otherwise. That being said, one of my leucs was pretty vocal and they have a louder call than many other species. My recommendation on beginner species will always be some form of auratus. They are a bit more forgiving for beginners, and their call is more of a low buzz rather than the high chirp of the leucs.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Dang, I can’t do the Anthonyi suggestion... 

Auratus is most likely a good choice. They’re more of a terrestrial frog but you could probably fit one or two into there.

Like everyone said, 80s will kill your frog. Not 70s, not 60s, and sometimes, even not 50s. Hot > Cold.


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

you should give them pond and up the mister
as for best dart frog dendrobates tinctorius azureus


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

E man said:


> you should give them pond and up the mister
> as for best dart frog dendrobates tinctorius azureus


I don’t think a pond is needed, just keep the temp low. You can use a pond if somebody else is taking care of them for a short amount of time.

We all know the side-effects of paludariums but if you add a pond, you’ll have less floor space.


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

FroggerFrog said:


> I don’t think a pond is needed, just keep the temp low. You can use a pond if somebody else is taking care of them for a short amount of time.
> 
> We all know the side-effects of paludariums but if you add a pond, you’ll have less floor space.


I also kinda like the way the ponds look


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

E man said:


> I also kinda like the way the ponds look


 Aesthetics, aesthetics, and aesthetics.

Just for your preference, not the frogs. Sure you can make them work, but it’s hard. I’m sorry to break it to you but water features are a bust.


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

FroggerFrog said:


> Aesthetics, aesthetics, and aesthetics.
> 
> Just for your preference, not the frogs. Sure you can make them work, but it’s hard. I’m sorry to break it to you but water features are a bust.


my frogs like to hang out in them even have a micro pump to filter it.
plus she said she has a 55 gal so space is no problem


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

E man said:


> my frogs like to hang out in them even have a micro pump to filter it.
> plus she said she has a 55 gal so space is no problem


True, true.

I’ve seen pictures of frogs hanging out in water features. I know a post by @Kmc that pretty much sums it up but I can’t find it. It’s by a post by someone who I believe got banned? (I’m not sure but it was about auratus and paludariums) Basically, it went along the lines of “there’s a difference between enjoyment and forced.”

55 gallon or not, the average terrarium does 
*NOT *even come close to the range of a dart frogs habitat. Adding a water feature is basically removing valuable space. Would you want to use all of your space possible or would you want to waste it for your preference?

I’m getting off topic and I don’t want to get into a serious argument but think twice after making paludariums or water features.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Given that standing water does not lower the temps in a viv -- and with humidity near near saturation will not be cooler than ambient, nor cooler than within the leaf litter in any event -- and the OP is asking about temperature, let's help them figure out their temperature issues.


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Given that standing water does not lower the temps in a viv -- and with humidity near near saturation will not be cooler than ambient, nor cooler than within the leaf litter in any event -- and the OP is asking about temperature, let's help them figure out their temperature issues.


we where not talking about the water cooling the tank. but the frogs soaking in it to cool themselves

and I like the debate with you frogerfrog it was interestion to see your opinion


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

E man said:


> we where not talking about the water cooling the tank. but the frogs soaking in it to cool themselves
> 
> and I like the debate with you frogerfrog it was interestion to see your opinion


I ment interesting


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

E man said:


> we where not talking about the water cooling the tank. but the frogs soaking in it to cool themselves
> 
> and I like the debate with you frogerfrog it was interestion to see your opinion


The water wouldn’t cool them but would hydrate them. Really, it could depend on the temp of the water. I’ve always been scared of my animals going into shock because of the temp of water.

I kind of hijacked the thread, ngl. Unless if I have the urge to continue, I won’t comment. Make a new thread if you’d like.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

E man said:


> we where not talking about the water cooling the tank. but the frogs soaking in it to cool themselves


If the water is the same temperature as the remainder of the vivarium then soaking in it won't allow the frogs to lower their temperature... 

@andrea05 , I would recommend that you figure out the temperature issues before getting frogs. 

As far as beginner friendly species with a quiet call: Dendrobates tinctorius and Dendrobates auratus both have quiet calls.


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> If the water is the same temperature as the remainder of the vivarium then soaking in it won't allow the frogs to lower their temperature...
> 
> @andrea05 , I would recommend that you figure out the temperature issues before getting frogs.
> 
> As far as beginner friendly species with a quiet call: Dendrobates tinctorius and Dendrobates auratus both have quiet calls.


water cools you down 20x faster than air having water evaporate off you is cooling same concept as sweat so when they get out the will be cooler


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

FroggerFrog said:


> Dang, I can’t do the Anthonyi suggestion...
> 
> Auratus is most likely a good choice. They’re more of a terrestrial frog but you could probably fit one or two into there.
> 
> Like everyone said, 80s will kill your frog. Not 70s, not 60s, and sometimes, even not 50s. Hot > Cold.


I mean, anthonyi are kind of loud, but I don’t think it’s obnoxious at all. Mine call throughout my Zoom meetings and it’s a little embarrassing, but it’s otherwise not so disruptive...


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I live in the Sacramento Valley in California which is also a Mediterranean climate. I wish I had a unique solution for you - you basically need to have AC running all the time in the summer or you'll exceed temperatures safe for your animals. It's just too hot and there's not an easy fix for that short of AC. Water resists temperature increases for longer than air, but that isn't going to help if the temperature is consistently above 80F, which it can be indoors in a Mediterranean climate if nobody is home to run the AC or open windows at night when the temp drops.

There's the old saying "where there's a will there's a way " and I'm sure with sufficient resources, dedication, and time you could experiment with an aquarium chiller, evaporative cooling techniques, or some novel method to cool just the vivarium - but those are not commonly used approaches to the best of my knowledge so I can't vouch for them and I'm not sure how reliable they would be. You could potentially obtain a smaller AC unit to cool the room the frogs are in, or setup a portable second vivarium to leave with a pet sitter when you are out of town. But ultimately there aren't any dart frogs that are going to be able to survive ambient temperatures in the 80s or 90s for weeks at a time without AC if you aren't at home. The temperatures you are describing actually exceed what is commonly considered safe for many reptile species.


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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

This was touched on, but thought i'd share my 2 cents here. I've always been drawn to the idea of as much automation on enclosures as possible, in the situation you are describing I think you should highly consider an 'emergency fallback' that will kick in automatically. This could be as simple as a smaller AC unit in your room that kicks on above a certain temp, or something more complex. Evapolar makes an interesting product here. 
Connorology mentioned an aquarium chiller - I imagine in this situation you would pump water through the chiller and into some type of copper (or other suitable material for thermal exchange) tubing that runs into the vivarium. Unless the idea was to use the chiller to cool a water feature, but I feel like that would be less efficient that the other concept. If you used it to pump cool water through the piping I wonder if you'd run it along the top of the tank, or in the substrate.

Does anyone have any experience with something like this?


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## E man (Feb 27, 2021)

riot said:


> This was touched on, but thought i'd share my 2 cents here. I've always been drawn to the idea of as much automation on enclosures as possible, in the situation you are describing I think you should highly consider an 'emergency fallback' that will kick in automatically. This could be as simple as a smaller AC unit in your room that kicks on above a certain temp, or something more complex. Evapolar makes an interesting product here.
> Connorology mentioned an aquarium chiller - I imagine in this situation you would pump water through the chiller and into some type of copper (or other suitable material for thermal exchange) tubing that runs into the vivarium. Unless the idea was to use the chiller to cool a water feature, but I feel like that would be less efficient that the other concept. If you used it to pump cool water through the piping I wonder if you'd run it along the top of the tank, or in the substrate.
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with something like this?


I don't know about the copper pipe thing but you could use the chiller to chill the water before a automatic mister sprays the vivarium


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

E man said:


> I don't know about the copper pipe thing but you could use the chiller to chill the water before a automatic mister sprays the vivarium


I have measured my misting volume in a viv of that size at 150ml. There's about, say, 3kg of mass in the viv @90F (ignoring both the mass of the glass and the excellent thermal conductivity of the glass, both of which further work against this method; also ignoring the possible difference in the specific heat of water and viv decor). Cooling the misting water to well below the lowest temp I'd spray on a frog -- to 50F, say -- would cool the viv 5% of the difference (since 150g is 5% of 3000g) in temp between the viv mass and the water (which is 40F): that is, from 90F to 88F. Until it heats up again, and supposing the frogs tolerate the sort of thermal shock they'd get if directly sprayed with cold water.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I have measured my misting volume in a viv of that size at 150ml. There's about, say, 3kg of mass in the viv @90F (ignoring both the mass of the glass and the excellent thermal conductivity of the glass, both of which further work against this method; also ignoring the possible difference in the specific heat of water and viv decor). Cooling the misting water to well below the lowest temp I'd spray on a frog -- to 50F, say -- would cool the viv 5% of the difference (since 150g is 5% of 3000g) in temp between the viv mass and the water (which is 40F): that is, from 90F to 88F. Until it heats up again, and supposing the frogs tolerate the sort of thermal shock they'd get if directly sprayed with cold water.


I agree, I don't think misting would work. I don't have a great suggestion for what to do with the aquarium chiller - only that aquarium chillers are a piece of technology that could likely be adapted here. For the sake of discussion, what I was envisioning was basically building a vivarium with a pretty deep false bottom with something like plastic egg crate (my Phyllobates enclosure is set up like this and holds several gallons below the substrate) and chilling that water, so the water under the substrate is cold and there's no need to run tubes everywhere.

I think that would probably work? But I don't know if it would work reliably or be remotely cost effective - aquarium chillers cost hundreds of dollars and presumably are very energy inefficient as you're basically turning your aquarium into an uninsulated refrigerator. I had looked into this option for my own enclosure to avoid blasting the AC, but instead moved the whole vivarium to the coolest room in the house to just sidestep the issue. I also have family nearby with a furnished basement that stays cool all summer, in a crazy heatwave or in the event I leave town mid-summer my fallback plan is to move the viv there.

I offer the chiller only as a hypothetical, I think a smaller AC unit for the room set to a smart thermostat that can be controlled remotely is the way to go. The other possibilities basically require independent R&D which most beginning hobbyists probably shouldn't start with - it's nice to get an understanding of the basics before you go all rogue. For anyone interested in chillers, I think the places to look would probably be aquarium boards or salamander forums (is caudata.org still a thing?) - chillers are made for aquarists so it stands to reason that they'd have the most experience with them, and salamanders generally require even cooler temps than frogs, and I vaguely recall browsing threads about how to keep salamander vivs cool.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Regarding AC control when you are away, @andrea05, you might want to consider the tado AC control system. As long as your AC is controlled with a remote control unit then tado replaces your remote and turns the airco on when a threshold temperature is reached. I have mine in my office/frog room set to 26c. The airco turns on when the temperature in the room reaches 26,5 and then turns off again when it has cooled to 25,5. This way I can go away without having to worry when temperatures increase (of course o still have to find someone to feed the flies!), and without having to leave the airco constantly running. (I also have tado controlling my central heating so I can set temperature in individual rooms without heating the whole house)


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## riot (Dec 4, 2020)

connorology said:


> I offer the chiller only as a hypothetical, I think a smaller AC unit for the room set to a smart thermostat that can be controlled remotely is the way to go.


This is spot on! - I like to try to think up new and innovative approaches to addressing the technical aspects of keeping vivaria, but often the simplest and most straightforward approach makes the most sense. 

Always envisioned a great big vivarium with it's own lighting, internal AC system, radiant heat and misting system, all automated with redundant sensors to keep the perfect balance of temperature, humidity, and lumens. 

Possible? probably. Realistic? probably not.


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