# ebenaui surprise



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I found a large clutch of eggs again this season.

If I see any development, I'll post some pics.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

sweet.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

woohoo! congrats


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Nice Doug! Good luck!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I am seeing development now, and tomorrow i'm moving the clutch of eggs because its being attacked by tiny snails. :shock:


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

unfortunately, most eggs were infertile. However, about three to four tadpoles have hatched and swimming free now.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

sorry to say this is kinda the usual with mantella's ime.I have had some fantastic year's and some dud's as well goodluck and three is better than 0.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)




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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

woo!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Cool deal Doug!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

ok. Now that they're much larger, I counted three tadpoles. All are roughly the same size.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Group Shot:


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

One question where were the eggs laid within moss etc, if so try and give them some other option's for deposition.I use film canister's(quite a few) and flower pot's with notches and a clay base.They seem to like the pot's they hold moisture just not so much that the eggs are saturated.actually use anything inert that they will utilize pvc has worked one end open and the other end capped partially buried.It seems that you have a good group and the more options for them the better your success will become getting healthier clutche's.I have had issues with nematodes destroying large clutches in the past but I kept adding objects for them to use and overtime they have accepted them as opposed to their usual method of laying within the tangled root's of potho's.
goodluck


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

i either find eggs under a piece of cork bark, or they lay under layers of leaf litter in the front of the tank.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Noticed one of my females was skinny overnight. I knew what that meant, and I found this under a piece of slate:


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

What is that coco fiber inside their.If so may be one reason so many eggs go bad I have used it before with cruddy result's if in fact that is coco fiber.Thats why I mentioned using something else for them to deposit their egg's inside of so there isnt as much soil contamination it is next to impossible to prevent any contaminant's but it is easier to remove a bad egg within a cleaner clutch.Very cool by the way.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Trow, you have a good point (however, this was unexpected since I just cleaned their tank/ redid it two weeks ago because of roaches). only about half of the clutch is developing.

Why does the coco fiber contaminate things? The second clutch I had last year with 40 or so tads was laid under leaves in the dirt. It developed very well.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

woohoo! Your season is going well so far


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Yeah, except that only about half the clutch is developing.

Things will be better next season when I introduce the other three mantellas in with my group.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You're not looking at it the right way... you're doing something right to get any eggs at all, much less any developing eggs. Yes, room for improvement, but hey, you're on the right path 

Now send me pics so I can set up my E. aff. ebenaui on the right path as well


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## umfrog (Jun 8, 2005)

Better yet just post the pictures here so we can all see.  

Wherever you are doing just keep doing it. I got alot of tads from my Expectata but getting just under 50% success in morping out. But, as KeroKero said any breeding activity with the different Mantella is a step in the right direction.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

It is hard enough to get all of our mantella's to grow morph and then make it past 1st month without any issue's.Believe me it hurt's when you have 36 healthy happy cowani tad's then only have two make it.Last clutch was very healthy aggressive tad's but low and behold 7 made it. One thing I noticed with my milo's is just how dirty they are and when you add the fact they spend most of the day walking over there own crap then guarding there clutch you can see how thing's can get spread and the potential for nematode's etc to infiltrate the clutch mold bacteria had never been an issue for me but nematodes have been. I am not down playing your achievement's I am stoked for you just trying to help you is all.
goodluck


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

One thing I've noticed other than spindley leg, is contorted back legs. They will grow straight or twisted and immobile. 

It's also weird that those three tadpoles already have developed back legs and are only half the size of the tads I had last year. However, I have kept these in RO water (and some tap) in smaller containers.

I have also been feeding mostly frog and tadpole bites instead of fish food and spirulina.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

I culture my own algae for feeding purposes not that there isn't any good commercial product's but I have good result's using my own not perfect but good. I honestly can say that spindley has never been an issue with me and mantella's ,I have had deformities similar to what you described.My mantella tad water is ro and tap mixed but aged for atleast a week and circulated the entire time with powerhead.I use this water for all my frog's.

Next clutch which I am sure you will have use more algae based food's instead.I am sure it will improve your number's.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

how do you cultivate your own algae? The only sure fire way is to add fertilizer to a bucket of water and leave it in direct sunlight. However, the fertilizer isn't something I want to get into the tadpole water.

What are you feeding the adult mantellas?

I think adult nutrition may have a lot to do with it too.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

You can simply set out a ten gallon bare tank with a few 10by 10 inch pieces of glass on top of some brick's or something similar and let nature take it's course fertilizer is not required in order to culture algae.If you want to speed thing's up you can introduce algae from a tank you currently have. I also breed tanganyikan cichlid's so I alway's have algae to inoculate the tank's.Once the glass piece's are covered simply introduce them into tad's container witch should be big enough for the glass.and rotate accordingly have enough going so you dont run out.

And if you want every few day's add some tank water to the setup to introduce some nutrient's.But fertilizer is not the only way.
I feed my mantella's termite's and field sweeping's and rarely fruit fly's and small pin's.
what do you feed your adult's btw


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Hey guys, 

Have you tried using spinach? Its supposed to be very high in calcium so it should help with spindly leg and that type of stuff. 

Its easy to prepare but if you don't want to prepare your own I do sell dehydrated blanched spinach to people in the fresh water invert hobby.

Personally I would just do it myself, because the price I get paid for it is crazy high...

Good luck, you seem to not need much more luck though!

-Andrew


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I feed mostly fruit flies. For a while, I was feeding out roaches. The mantellas like them, but too many got away. Feeding out roaches and crickets for me triggers breeding.

It is too dangerous for me to feed field plankton because my folks put herbicide down every year.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

I wouldn't risk it even if it is herbicide the bug's may retain some of the chemical's left over. Fruit fly's as a staple diet for any frog isn't the best.
They are reproducing now because they are wc and they still have a storage of nutrient's etc from the wild but if you dont mix it up they will crash.They will stop reproducing and if they do the clutche's will fail.I have had this happen to me many time's in the beginning of my mantella addiction.They will go like gang buster's for as long as a year after being introduced into our collection's.
I would go back to the cricket's and fruit fly's roache's just aint my bag so I wont even go there.Feed heavily now while they are breeding supplement accordingly and thing's will improve.I am gonna pm you with some other idea's.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I'm going to be trying the "easy pinhead culture" method since I have never experienced crickets "outgrowing" in the tank. I have fed 1/2" crickets before and never found ones reaching adulthood. 

Mantella ebenaui do not care for rice flour beetle larvae, nor do they care about fruit fly larvae. Sometimes they'll eat springtails.

They prefer roaches, crickets, etc...getting a steady supply is the problem. It's really disappointing that the roaches are too hazardous as they are good nutrition.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Feeding the roaches in large funnel might keep them from escaping.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

A part of the problem with the roaches hasn't been about confining them (they are easily confined to smooth sided bowls) as much as the frog's feeding habits being a problem... for example in tincs, they will lunge and grab the roach, just to spit it out... outside the bowl. Also, other things have allowed them to climb out of the bowl... slug slime, detritus the frogs bring in, etc. Once the surface of the bowl is no longer smooth, they can get out. A similar problem would likely occur with the funnel as it did with the bowl. It's really a pain 

Ideally it would be best to bowl feed, and remove the bowl after a certain amount of time, say, 20 mins or 2 hours. The longer they are in the tank and not eaten, the greater the chance they have of getting out... but again, if its the frogs kinda doing the spitting out thing, even that won't help much lol. It also doesn't help that much with shy frogs, although with consistant bowl feeding I've gotten my shier animals to check out the bowl after I put it in... I tap a corner of the tank, put in the bowl, and walk away from the tank. The bowl is removed an hour or two later. Over time (longer than with bolder species) they figured it out. I haven't tried this with my aff. ebenaui tho, so I'm not sure how long it would take with them. They are still happily munching on the springtails in their new tank :roll:


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I did do the bowl feeding, but the frogs never caught on.

From observing my three tads, one is developing issues now that it is morphing. 

Trow, my adult ebenaui are over three years old now, WC back in 2004 as froglets (how they survived the journey from Madagascar, I do not know). My male ate mostly springtails the first few weeks I had them.

If you haven't had spindley leg, why have many died?


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

I dont know honestly I have many theories but no definitive answer's.And one thing I should clear up is that the death's are not across the board.Most of my issue's are with cowani,milo's,haraldi's,pulchra not that they aren't producing just not as good as the rest.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

trow, 

aren't termites a good source of fat? From observing other mantella breeders, I've noticed that many include waxworms as the list of feeders.

I have a theory that higher fat diets (during the breeding season) and different vitamin ratios may be key. The problem is, my ebenaui are not fond of rice flour larvae or small mealworms. I do have some lesser waxworms, but the culture hasn't done so well (also, its a real pain trying to get them out of the culture).

From watching my tincs, a good feeding of something fatty or that has been fed on animal products (crickets and roaches eat cat food) tend to induce breeding.

IMO, fruit flies are just a surface to put vitamins on. However, the mantellas are very fond of them.

I've tried to contact Mark Pepper about how he raises his mantella tads and adults, but have not received an answer.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Mark is a busy man just give him time.
Waxworm's are something you should use sparingly as well or just use them to round out the normal diet you feed your frog's. Termite's are a source of many good thing's fat being one of them although some will disagree. as far as your mantella's eating termite's you wont know until you try.Just because they dislike rfb's and mealworm's doesnt mean they will turn there head to a tmite which I have never had a frog not atleast try them even my baby retic's will eat termite's.It couldnt hurt to try.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

chad, check the foods section.

I fed some termites out, and OMG, the mantellas were all over them. I haven't seen my male come out into the open to feed like that in a long time.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

First, how did my post move all the way back here?

Take a look:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

woo! congrats!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

They're all morphing out right so far. There are 13 froglets / frogpoles..hopefully it'll be my lucky number.

Ok, Derek's previous post and my response were deleted. 

I mentioned how I changed my tadpole methods. I will repeat what I did differently. (knock on wood, I am not going to put any hopes up high unless I see froglets live one month).

Instead of tapwater, I used RO water and RO Right. I did not use blackwater extract, oak leaves instead for tannins.

I threw away my old spirulina and purchased fresh algae from Josh Willard. I also fed frog and tadpole bites. I used a new shoebox from the dollar store.

This clutch was the one collected from Penny after I rearranged her tank because of too many stray roaches. I'm sure the health of the clutch was partially due to the roaches.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

today I found TWO MORE surprises.

I noticed that Penny had gotten a little skinny again. Well, I dug around behind some plants and found TWO clutches of...tadpoles.

My other female, Autumn, must have laid sooner. They were side by side.

I dug up the tadpole clump of dirt and put them in the water, while I'm waiting to put the others in tomorrow.

Well, if I have to quit my job for a few months to take an internship next semester, I'll have a way to keep myself "employed." :lol:


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Cool any pics of the parents?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=32566


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

update,

Froglets are growing nicely. Many have a blue stripe along jaw, instead of pure white. They are eating mostly springtails and flightless fruit flies. There are twelve froglets.

I will post some more pics later.


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