# Sympatric species to R. lamasi/sirensis 'Highland/standard'?



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Anyone know of any small, vocal, terrestrial species of dart frogs that occur sympatrically with standard/highland lamasi (Pasco, Peru)?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I know it's a bamboo forest habitat, but I don't know anything else about it


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Email Mark Pepper. Didn't he spend 2 years looking for those?


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Doug, you're thinking of the real deal sirensis. look em up on dendrobates.org. it tells about his near death experiences, only to find two adult frogs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

curlykid said:


> Doug, you're thinking of the real deal sirensis. look em up on dendrobates.org. it tells about his near death experiences, only to find two adult frogs.


Hmm, I think I confused that with this blurb from his web site. _"Frequent visits to historically known sites by ourselves and colleagues, J. Brown, E. Twomey, J. Yeager throughout the past 4 years have turned up only one juvenile specimen. These frogs are present in the hobby and known as the nominal and highland lamasi."_


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

hmm. maybe i was mistaken?

here:


> It wasn't until 1976 that this species was first collected, found in elfin forest at 1560 m elevation by Dr. Werner Hanagarth. Ten years later, Manfred Aichiner, working on the amphibians of central Peru, conducted an extensive survey of the Sira. Aichinger and his team spent an entire year in the Sira, yet were only able to find five individuals, two of which escaped after capture. Since that time, several field parties have entered the Sira in an attempt to find R. sirensis, but have been unsuccessful. Recently, an expedition in 2005 led by Mark Pepper set out to retrace Aichinger's footsteps. The team reached the infamous Pato Rojo, an abandoned helicopter landing pad made by a Canadian gold mining company and later used by Aichinger. Upon reaching Pato Rojo, Pepper's team found nothing but thriving bee hive, and were forced to camp a few hundred meters below on the edge of a precipitous gorge on the western face of the Sira. After 4 days camping and hiking throughout the cloud forest of the Sira, the team left with nothing more than bruised egos and no frogs. In 2007, Pepper decided to return, leading a second expedition into the Sira along with Manuel Sanchez, Jason Brown, and Evan Twomey. After suffering several fall-related injuries and barely escaping a flash-flood, the team was lucky enough to find two adult R. sirensis hunkered down in a plant axil.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Turns out sirensis isn't a valid species: just some lamasi that didn't have dorsal striping. However, this is more prominent in certain populations and areas than others. But Brown et al. have proposed a complete revision of the genus Ranitomeya...and in this revision the species designation of 'lamasi' gets dropped altogether and the older name of 'sirensis' is now used. Anything that used to be lamasi is now considered sirensis.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

We've gone way off topic here. Any small terrestrial Peruvian frogs from this bamboo forest?
Maybe a toad?


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

You are both correct in that Mark worked on both of those frogs. As far as this thread is concerned the snipet by Pumilo is more pertinent.

Ron, wouldn't it be that R. sirensis is the valid species and that what we knew as lamasi, is just a sirensis, with striping on it.  I think we just mentally see the reverse because as hobbyist we see lamasi as coming first. Actually, you had the info correct, just the wording in your first statement is reversed.

And to stay on topic, the region where the Highland R. sirensis occur is also where A. silverstonei is from. According to Dendrobates.org the 2 species overlap in elevation, I'm not sure if they are found sympatrically. Maybe historically they were. I'm sure Mark or Ric can answer this one the best.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The ultimate mixed species vivarium...silverstonei and highland lamasi
Drool


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Let me adjust the op:

Anyone know of any small, vocal, terrestrial species of dart frogs that occur sympatrically with standard/highland lamasi (Pasco, Peru) that I have a chance in heck of finding?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

No...not that I'm at all aware of.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Crud, I've been looking for this too.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

These Highland "lamasi" were historically found at a few locations around Tingo Maria, and east into an awesome mountain pass known locally as La Divisoria. Judging from many conversations with locals in the mountains, the lamasi were once fairly common and probably pretty liberally distributed in the region. Personally I have failed completely in finding these frogs, and Evan and Jason I think turned up one. 
Many people think/refer to these frogs as "nominal" lamasi, but I believe Morales was working from a different population altogether for his type series...I have to dig out the paper jog my memory of exactly where. I think the fact that the arrival of these in the hobby pretty early on and Schulte's book in 1999 brought these frogs some fame, and they became know as nominal. I think a better hobby name might be the Tingo Maria morph as they use on Dendrobates.org...but i realize it is probably too late to change this. Of course now, in light of Brown et al. (2011) lamasi is regarded a junior synonym of sirensis, and the title of "nominal sirensis" would go the awesomeness that is found in the Serrania de Sira.

To answer Zach's question, these frogs were probably (historically) at least broadly sympatric with A. silverstonei, A. rubriventris, A. altamazonica. there is also a rather dark form of the A. petersi/smaragdina from the region too. Your best bet, would probably be altamazonica.

@ Curylykid - I feel that I should add the closest we actually came from dieing on that trip was from the elation that immediately followed actually find the frogs. I am fairly certain I might have wished for death a few times during the hellish hike back to Pto. Inca.

It is a miserable day in Ontario, this thread makes me miss Peru.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Awesome Mark, thanks for the response! Any idea what range of temperatures are found there?


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Zach, It can get pretty cold up in the mountains, into the low 50's and below at night frequently. Much more moderate around Ting Mario - you have your hot days, with often a nice cool down at night. Typical dart frog temps 
These ranges I don't believe are too big of a concern in captivity...many commonly kept species are exposed to a much wider variation in temperatures in the wild and adjust just fine to consistent, slightly warmer temperatures in captivity.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

If I may add, I think you are going to find that the frogs are more adaptable to the higher temperatures (as Mark wrote) than the plants from higher elevation are. (esp. the night temperatures). I'm just adding this since I know you are trying to create a biotope tank.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Because it was bothering me I dug out the Morales 1992 description of Dendrobates lamasi and Dendrobates biolat. I was only partially correct above. The holotype and several paratypes were from Iscozacin 345m, in Pasco. Essentially these were frogs very similar to what the hobby knows as Panguanna lamasi. Additional paratypes were collected from near Tingo Maria, 672m, in Huanuco. So, the "Pasco" comes from the Departamento the holotype hails from. The history of many of these frogs in the literature is really quite interesting.

Sorry Zach, this is a major diversion from what you initially asked.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Mark, did you end up keeping the sirensis and working with them? i sent you a pm also.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

No worries getting off topic, I find all of this information very interesting. A friend in Germany told me that, depending on the time of year and specific areas, the lowlands can range from the low 90s to the high 50s, with the highlands ranging from the mid/high 70s to the low 50s. I wanted to insure that the needs for some of the highland plants I was looking at would correlate with the temperature tolerance of the lamasi.

Mark, how large are these altamazonica? Do you think that is a species that would do well with an average temperature range of low-mid 70s during the day, and a drop into the low 60s/high 50s at night? I really appreciate your input.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

@Curly, nope, we are not working with the nominotypical sirensis. I have discussed why in another thread not too long ago. (Re: Ranitomeya revision)

@Zach - Yeah even in the lowlands, the temps can dip. Iquitos usually gets a few days to a week around February or March that are noticably cooler, plunging into low 60's. Both of the altamazonica morphs we offer atm are premontane morphs from about 400m more or less, so you don't really see a major temperature drop at that elevation. I think they would take the plunges into the 50/s but how well they would tolerate or thrive I really hesitate to guess. I hate to give an opinion one way or another and have you try it and it not go well. I am sure isolated dips would pose no problem, I am just a little concerned about the long term effects after a more continual exposure to temps that low. You daytime temps should not be a problem.

These are not large frogs, if you are familiar with hahneli or azuriventris they are more or less the same size. Anthonyi and tricolor are similar in size as well. Good luck with your viv, sounds interesting.


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