# Alternative Staples



## DanNyN (Mar 27, 2010)

Hi guys,
I was wondering if Springtails (big and small species) and dwarf tropical isopods (woodlice) could be used as the main foodsource for dart frogs?
I know friutflies are the industry standard, but i dont see what nutritional value fruitflys have that they dont have.


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

It's not so much the nutritional value as it is how fast you can generate flies and how easy they are to feed and dust. It would take many spring and iso cultures to get as much production as a fruit fly culture.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DanNyN said:


> Hi guys,
> I was wondering if Springtails (big and small species) and dwarf tropical isopods (woodlice) could be used as the main foodsource for dart frogs?
> I know friutflies are the industry standard, but i dont see what nutritional value fruitflys have that they dont have.


On what are you basing the similarity in the nutritional values? 


Ed


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## Willowalker (Sep 8, 2009)

GREAT! I'm not the only one who has been thinking this! I have been wondering about this same question myself, and have been doing a bit of an experiment. I personally would not like to have to feed fruitflies if at all possible. Going back in the feeding section all the postings regarding feeding iso's seem to focus on the fact that while iso's are a great food source, their reproductive rates are slow and that is the main deterrent to feeding them exclusively or at least more frequently. I also must acknowledge that I agree with the idea that a more diverse diet is best. However, I would be willing to bet that 90% of the hobbyists here use ff's as their main feeding source, so why couldn't it be flipped around to iso's/springs?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Willowalker said:


> I also must acknowledge that I agree with the idea that a more diverse diet is best. However, I would be willing to bet that 90% of the hobbyists here use ff's as their main feeding source, so why couldn't it be flipped around to iso's/springs?





Willowalker said:


> their reproductive rates are slow and that is the main deterrent to feeding them exclusively or at least more frequently.


You would have to dedicate a lot of extra space to exclusively feed those two, especially to a collection of any size. And if your interest is the most diversified diet possible, why would you want to exclude flies entirely?


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## DanNyN (Mar 27, 2010)

The nutritional value is based on nothing. Im asking if nutrition will become a problem if i replace ffs. 

I have heard that Isopods are slow to reproduce, but i have also heard that they are slow to start, but eventually explode.
Either way thats why i thought to also include springtails. they reproduce quickly. in fact, i am considering two springtails. the tropical Falsomia candida and a giant one Tomocerus minor. I know the giant springtail is from europe, but it is known to be very heat resistant. 

Im thinking that the springtails will provide be the bulk of the diet when isopod population is low, giving them time to recover.

isopods also have high calcium, thanks to thier armour.

also i think that if given space ie. the whole viv, they could have high enough production. but i could be wrong. thats what these forums are for. sharing info, ideas, and experiences all to improve the hobby.

also im looking at aphids. they are prolific (asexual and/or sexual) and although they eat plants, they usually specify. ex. aphids will only eat one type of plant in your viv, not the rest. the idea came from the pea aphid. it only eats certain plants (peaplants alfalfa ect) and WILL NOT eat any of the other plant in your viv. however i need to find an aphid that eats a plant that would survive under tropical conditions. 

Fruitflys can also be included but just not as the staple.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So how do you intend to supply vitamins A, E, D3 etc? Not all isopods are high in calcium due to thier cuticle.. so one cannot assume that you are meeting thier calcium needs by simply including isopods. The isopods would also have to be a sufficient portion of the diet to meet the calcium needs (but one has to remember that without sufficient D3, the amount of calcium in the diet is immaterial). 

Even when you supply the correct feeder plant for the aphids, the plant has to be able to support the aphid population. If one looks at aphid culture and parasitization, one notes that the aphids often have to be transfered to new plants... (aphid use has been discussed here pretty throughly). 

"Self sustaining" vivariums have been discussed in depth here on several occasions and require some specific adaptations such as other substrates than most people use to meet the nutritional needs of the frogs. 

One of the reasons fruit flies or crickets are used as staples is that they are excellent routes to provide the other nutrients needed by the frogs to do well in the long run.. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You cannot replace FF as a staple at the hobby level.

You will fail......


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure I would go that far Phil.. it just requires a lot of preperation and planning, including but not limited to very large enclosures, a custom high calcium substrate that can be ingested not only the the microfauna but the frogs, appropriate UVB supplementation, very low density of frogs, a very varied microfauna, a method of supplementation that gets the fat soluble vitamins to the frogs, a seasonality to thier husbandry that is sufficient to allow for sequestering of the nutrients.... and several factors I am sure I have missed... 

I know of several people that have systems working along those lines that are seeing some success. (And Ben took down the compost tank..) 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I knew you were going to go that route Ed....and you are right, of course.

We always tend to see a new hobbyist every so often, that wishes to NOT have anything to do with fruit flies for one reason or another...

Flies smell
I hate flies
I hate larvae/ worms 
Flies escape and have me all weirded out / scared / spouse pizzed, ect

For new hobbyists, that need as much help as possible to increase the chance of success and health of the frog, I cannot imagine trying to use another insect staple to start out.

FF culturing is _THE_ best part of this hobby.

If a new hobbyist is unwilling to culture FF - then I refuse to transfer any of my frogs to them. Their chance of success will be compromised greatly by their own choice and I won't risk a frog on that.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

as it hasnt been stated in layman's terms, you cant dust springs and isopods (that the tanks are seeded with) so generally no you cannot substitute. a frog getting only FFs for instance (w/o supplements) would have a very short life (without the elaborate consideration such as ed suggested, which IMO would be more of a pain then the FFs).

james


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## DanNyN (Mar 27, 2010)

thanks for the info guys. you have all been very helpful and informative. 
your all right i have never owned frogs before. i was just looking for an easy way to keep frogs because they WERE for an experiment. i only choose frogs because they are beautiful. looks like i will have to find new subjects.

back to the drawing board!


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

My ff cultures crashed this past winter and I have been using pin head crickets gut loaded and dusted in the meanwhile. My azureus have learned to take on the occasional 1/8 inch cricket that sneaks in amongst the pinheads


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

culturing ff's is really easy though, don't get discouraged by them.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

DanNyN said:


> thanks for the info guys. you have all been very helpful and informative. I was just looking for an easy way to keep frogs because they WERE for an experiment.
> 
> back to the drawing board!


Can you give us a reason why you can't or won't try FF culturing?

We can possibly help you get through that as well....


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> If a new hobbyist is unwilling to culture FF - then I refuse to transfer any of my frogs to them. Their chance of success will be compromised greatly by their own choice and I won't risk a frog on that.


I can agree with this.

For the OP: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/25846-self-sustaining-terrariums-depth.html

I came across that thread a little while ago and found it rather interesting. Maybe it will help you. However, the statement "i was just looking for an easy way to keep frogs..." well... IMO, FFs are the _easiest_ way to keep frogs (dart frogs). As you diverge from keeping FFs everything becomes much much harder. As you can see from my link, while it's a fabulous idea, at the very least the initial setup is very intensive.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

This thread has me laughing..a little. I would be worried if I had to think for one minute that I could no longer culture fruitflies (for whatever reason). 
Fruitflies are so easy and dare I say sanitary, vs. many of the other feeders such as crickets. Not to mention they are cheap and easy to culture. If you really wanna pinch pennies, you can even forgo some of the fruitfly media recipes and use straight instant mashed potato flakes (I did it for years with no issues at all).
I agree with Phil...if you can't be bothered with culturing ff's then this hobby just isn't for you. There are more complex issues related to the husbandry of PDF's and culturing ff's is far from a complexity, it's viewed by many as a blessing for such an easy food source.


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## DanNyN (Mar 27, 2010)

well its an ecology paper on population control.
i need to measure the population density of the prey, iwhile adding consumers.
the reason i dont want ffs is because they cant be cultured inside the viv. and i was planning on using specimens per square inch as the measurement of population density. 
originally i was going to choose pea aphids and lady bugs for simplicity but i have always liked dart frogs and im a reptile hobbyist. so i wanted to find a reason why i shouldn't. unless there is a practical way culture fruitflies inside the viv?
but the viv i have to work with is 4'X3' and only 2' high. i cant find any plants that bear fruit year round that are small enough to fit aswell as survive in tropical conditions. strangler figs WOULD be perfect if they werent HUGE!
yes this fact frustrates me lol


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

uugh, I can't imagine trying to count springtails per suare inch. Their young are soooooo small. Isopods too. their young are very small


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## DanNyN (Mar 27, 2010)

i was gonna sift them out. again i have had no experience with frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That is a lot of sifting as the many of the commonly available springtaile tend to colonize the depths of the substrate which acts as a refugia for the population. In addition, they tend to utilize leaf litter for shelter and food, and it isn't that easy to sift springtails out of leaf litter. 

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i added brazil nuts to a tank one time and fruit flies starting breeding with those.

you could do it with flies, you just need a big tank. and some compost that wont harm the frogs at all. i would use bananas and brazil nuts in a 75 gallon with 3-4 leucs maybe.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

May I throw out an idea?

When making backgrounds for vivs, a lot of people will leave small cutouts/holes in the background for putting small planters to plant plants in. Instead of using them for plants, why not use them as a place to breed fruit flies inside the viv?

At walmart or any grocery store really, you can get white plastic cups that are about 2oz. Make fruit fly media and fill the shot glasses, then place them in the background or bury in the substrate up to the edge of the media at the top of the shotglass. 

This way, you can have fruit flies breeding in your viv (hopefully!), your frogs can eat the fruit flies, and it will be easier (but still hard) to get counts on how many fruit flies are in your viv per square inch.... 

Lots of work, but it **MIGHT** work and you could still use dart frogs for you experiment. 

In the end, if it all doesnt work out like you had planned, you will still have a HUGE vivarium to play with and look at full of frogs. 

-Matt


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Where do you live?

Chances are, there will be a frogger meeting near you. I would reccommend attending. Your information you need will most likely be supplied in person and you can physically see some vivaria and ask all the questions you need.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

McBobs said:


> May I throw out an idea?
> 
> When making backgrounds for vivs, a lot of people will leave small cutouts/holes in the background for putting small planters to plant plants in. Instead of using them for plants, why not use them as a place to breed fruit flies inside the viv?
> 
> ...


While this may certainly get fruit flies to the frogs, I'm under the impression that they're not particularly nutritious by themselves. If you're breeding the flies in the viv it will become more difficult to supplement the frogs and keep them healthy.... That's my understanding anyway.


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

McBobs, I usually utilize the 8oz cups filled with ban/apple puree, no yeast or other typical media ingredients. I place them in my vivs a couple weeks prior to anytime i have to leave town for vacay or work. Anyhow it works great with melanos and Hydei alike, Keeps my frogs fed when i am unable to feed personally. The frogs love to sit in front of the "feeding station" and gulp up the larvae exiting the media, A treat that i don`t usually supply for them.

Ed


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

McBobs said:


> May I throw out an idea?
> 
> When making backgrounds for vivs, a lot of people will leave small cutouts/holes in the background for putting small planters to plant plants in. Instead of using them for plants, why not use them as a place to breed fruit flies inside the viv?
> 
> ...


This would work, but it is fraught with danger. If you don't have some kind of covering to keep the frogs out, you would be putting your frogs at risk. As the fruit fly larva colonize and eat, the media becomes a soup which becomes quick sand to your frogs. Over the years I have seen posts by folks who placed culture jars into the tank when they were going on vacation. They unfortunately did not secure the screen lid adequately. The frogs seeing the larva moving around, pushed the lid in, climbing in, got stuck and drown.

A better way is to create a refugia pocket which is separated from the tank by a product like epiweb / floor buffing sheets. This way the frogs are kept safe from the media. This has been discussed and experimented with by many here. Do a search for refugia and Ben Eply.


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

You can also search the depths of the frognet archives for all sorts of good info. Search for:

UVB
Self-sustaining vivariums
Clay based substrates


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## decev (Dec 3, 2009)

OH and I should mention that one of the things that got me into this hobby was searching around google for terrarium building and I came across that exact thread above about self sustaining vivariums. I read everything I could about them on this website and frognet, and then I read a lot more on these two sites until I decided I needed to have dart frogs. My goal was to have one of these self sustaining vivariums.

And you know what? After doing all that reading, research, planning, etc... well lets just say that I culture fruit flies.


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