# Fighting?



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I know this is long but if you want to thouroghly answer my question I purposly wrote in detail, just a suggestion.

So, I was listening to my Male vent call tonight and then I started to hear a smaller very soft buzzing coming right after and sometimes before the louder one.This was all taking place after lights out, but I still had my room light on, which doesnt light up the tank much. Anyway I snuck over to see if there really was a second call, and I was right!

So I quietly turned on the lights and I saw to my amazement two frogs calling at the same time, again one very soft and the other very loud. Then they started taking turns going on top of eachother and just laying on the other, while calling ?

Wierd?

But there is a twist to the story, earlier that day ( 20 min.) I saw the frog that was calling loudly calling in front of the softer one and puffing up, then it ran a little ways up the backround then stoped, called, then went a little further and gave up, almost like it was telling her to follow him( typical breeding actions?)? And the frog it was calling to looked like a female about 1/2 to 3/4 gravid.

I know this is long but if you want to thouroghly answer my question I purposly wrote in detail, just a suggestion.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

anyone want to say what they think?


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## Android1313 (Dec 15, 2006)

I voted breeding because of the behavior about the male moving up the background calling, then pausing, then moving up more, then calling again etc.. I have seen my male vents do this. Usually a day or two later I find eggs. Good luck!


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

sweet, I'll be checking for christmas presents .. if you know what I mean!


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

If both the frogs in question where truly calling, they won't be doing any breeding. It is not uncommon for males to 'wrestle' and have one or both males calling at the same time.

Bill


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I've not had much experience with vents, but in my experience with pumilio, this sounds like fighting. The dominant male will call normally, and the subordinate male will typically slow his call and often be quieter. They do a calling match, and if that doesn't work, fighting ensues until the loser runs off.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

the other one did eventually run off but I just thought it was wierd what happend earlier.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

this is definitely a show of dominance or aggression of one frog to another rapid on/off and tumbling of these frogs while calling is a challenge to be the alpha male.. the ultimate goal is to "pin" the other and hold him down.. I also see this in a very large 4' x 3' x 2.5' vivarium I have for all my misfit (unattatched) pumilio they will constantly call and literally wrestle each other to be king of the hill.. with no ill effects as this is natural.. the loser just goes hopping away after being hip tossed I have some pictures of these wrestling frogs in my album.. the winning male seems to claim the "high" spot of the viv that day courting the ladies.. then it starts all over again the very next sunup.. I actually keep a log of the "champion".. if your tank is large enough to support a group of these (vents do well in groups) then just monitor the combatants and make sure they are not stressed to the point of not feeding, courting etc... Peter Keane


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I think I can now confirm that it was Male dominance fighting. I did the same procedure with the lights and came back turned them on and watched the fight, each frog took his side on the leaf, and usually whoever is on the high ground wins. This time the rookie took the crown but I think he got lucky.

Also my two Males have been calling all the time lately, I think the younger male is just coming into maturety because his call is very weak and he has just begun to call. I have an empty 10 gallon should I put the most mature female and male in together alone in that tank?

Would that increase my chances of getting a pair set? Because he wont have to fight off the other younger frog?

what do you think?



Mac


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There is a bit of a debate about keeping thumbnails in groups or pairs. If it's a true group (5+ animals) and relatively even in sexes there tend to not be too much trouble if in a large enough tank with enough breeding, calling, and tadpole deposition spots. In these cases, there may actually be more success breeding than if the group was seperated into pairs because animals get to pick their preferred mates, fertility of eggs may be increased due to egg piracy (a male other than the one that bred with the female may sneak in and give it a go), and increased competition (possibly giving more attention to the eggs and young to make sure the other animals don't get involved in a negative way tho I don't have any experience that supports this and I believe the other two reasons are more true). It's also easier to grow the groups of plants they like... like clumps of broms... in a larger tank, were a small 10g vert (erk, always do the biggest you can afford, but this is what a lot of people use) may only be able to hold the smallest species like a fireball (but not a clump) where a larger tank not only supports a larger type of brom they might like better, but also support the clumps of broms that they also prefer.

In other cases, pairs may be more successful... it's easier to keep track of individual animals, it may be easier/cheaper for the keeper to keep the pairs in the smallest minimal space than devote the space/money to the larger tank. It's easier to find eggs to pull them (if that's your goal, with vents I'd let them do all the work so you aren't overloaded with tadpoles that take forever to morph) in the smaller tanks with pairs.


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