# Isopod proliferation?



## run91

I searched but didn't find exactly what I wanted.

I'm good with flies and springtails, but isopods are currently beating my culturing abilities. I have two cultures, one is about 6 weeks old with dwarf purple isos and the other is pretty fresh grey isos. They both started from probably a dozen or so adult isos. However, I feel like my proliferation is rather slow. I'm hoping to seed but don't seem to have a booming culture that would sustain growth in a terrarium. 

The older culture has grown to a population great enough so that when I open the container I can catch a few munching on bug burger. However, I feel like I'm culturing slowly. Both are on ABG with cruched up leaf litter added. The temp is around 70 all day and I keep the substrate moist.

I've also read Pumilio's thread on culturing, but didn't really get a good idea of the amount of time a culture needs.

Any advice? Or do they just take a long time compared to other feeders?


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## polishpower

They take some time to get going


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## Jake H.

Those two species are some of my slowest to reproduce. 

The giant orange isopod (Porcellio sp. "orange") is by far the fastest reproducing species I have worked with. If you want a species that breeds quickly in high numbers, I would suggest them.


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## Giga

Porcellio scaber breed like rabbits for me


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## run91

Thanks guys. I guess it's just a waiting game. Is there any way to increase reproduction rate? Also, how many do you need to seed a terrarium? Is it even possible to seed if there are frogs already?


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## PDFanatic

The d. White also reproduce quite a lot faster then my purple as well.


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## Jake H.

I would make the substrate mixture 40:60, abg to leaf litter. Also use softer leaves, magnola and similar leafs will not be as easily eaten as say oak. 

Mites can also cause slower reproduction due to food competition, so make sure your cultures are mite free. 

The greater number of adults you start a culture with the greater production. So a few dozen to a hundred will be fine. 

I wouldnt add anything less than 40 to seed a viv. But its always better to seed the viv before adding the frogs to allow the adults to start breeding regularly. So for your viv, I would add at least 40-50 mixed sized individuals.


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## aspidites73

How big are the containers they're in? I have found it best to start them out on 16 oz. deli cups then, when I have 3-4 established cultures I put them all in a Sterilite Shoobox. I breed the dwarf whites and Giant Canyon. The Giant Canyon isopods breed rather slow. Quite the opposite for the dwarf white. Although I've never verified it, I once read that some isopods (i want to say P. scaber is one) can take 14-20 months to be reproductively mature.



run91 said:


> I searched but didn't find exactly what I wanted.
> 
> I'm good with flies and springtails, but isopods are currently beating my culturing abilities. I have two cultures, one is about 6 weeks old with dwarf purple isos and the other is pretty fresh grey isos. They both started from probably a dozen or so adult isos. However, I feel like my proliferation is rather slow. I'm hoping to seed but don't seem to have a booming culture that would sustain growth in a terrarium.
> 
> The older culture has grown to a population great enough so that when I open the container I can catch a few munching on bug burger. However, I feel like I'm culturing slowly. Both are on ABG with cruched up leaf litter added. The temp is around 70 all day and I keep the substrate moist.
> 
> I've also read Pumilio's thread on culturing, but didn't really get a good idea of the amount of time a culture needs.
> 
> Any advice? Or do they just take a long time compared to other feeders?


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## pafrogguy

Both of those species reproduce very fast. As someone that makes hundreds of cultures every couple weeks, I can tell you they produce very fast under proper conditions. One of the keys to getting isos to explode in population as aspidites said is container size. Keeping the isos more confined seems to make this happen much faster. 

Cultures I make to sell I use only the small 1.5 oz deli cups and I leave adults in these until I see offspring before I offer them for sale, which is typically only a couple weeks. When I am making new master cultures I start an 8 oz deli container. I feed bug burger, Springtail Food, and Science Diet Dog food. Once these 8 oz containers are loaded with isos (it does not take too long) I place them in a plastic shoebox about half filled with media. With those two species, it takes no time at all, especially stripes(one of my fastest). 

I use New England Herp's media with clay added. This is much lighter than ABG mix and gives much more surface area for the insects. I also use a combination of crushed up leaf litter (Oak and Magnolia, or either if I don't have both) mixed in. I place a layer of litter over top for humidity as I do not like cardboard, but either can be used. Now while the isos don't like it sopping wet, the higher the humidity, the more they seem to reproduce. Especially whites. When it dries out, they will greatly slow production. 

And mites.... you won't get anywhere with them present in your dwarf cultures. Typically mites won't overrun an iso culture, but they will greatly slow production as they can greatly impact the brood. So starting with clean cultures is an important step as any.


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## Ed

One of the reasons people see such variation in culturing the different kinds of isopods is because not all of them have the exact same needs. For example, the dwarf whites have a lesser need for calcium as their exoskeleton is not as calcified as other isopods. So if your cultures lack a ready source of calcium it is probable the dwarf whites will out produce the other isopods. 

The time required to complete a total life cycle is also not the same in all of the isopods. For example some of the larger species in the wild can take 15 months to reach sexual maturity. This is shortened in captivity due to a lack of significant seasonal variations but still takes months. So in these cases, it can take a long time for the culture to actually become very productive as your waiting on the second and third generations to become sexually mature. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Ed said:


> For example some of the larger species in the wild can take 15 months to reach sexual maturity. This is shortened in captivity due to a lack of significant seasonal variations but still takes months. So in these cases, it can take a long time for the culture to actually become very productive as your waiting on the second and third generations to become sexually mature.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed, that's good info. That would explain the discrepancy I have noticed with P. scaber, (giant orange) isopods. They are "supposed" to take 15(ish) months to mature. While I haven't recorded dates, and tracked the time properly, I'm seeing them reach reproductive maturity inside of perhaps 6 months, maybe a little less.

A note regarding your use of calcium in culturing. I used to list dwarf whites as my fastest producing isopods, but I have a few cultures on my calcium bearing clay substrate, with lot's of leaf litter, and the production on the dwarf purples went through the roof.


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## Ed

Pumilo said:


> A note regarding your use of calcium in culturing. I used to list dwarf whites as my fastest producing isopods, but I have a few cultures on my calcium bearing clay substrate, with lot's of leaf litter, and the production on the dwarf purples went through the roof.


My dwarf purple colonies crush the others provided I give them enough calcium. I've gotten to the point where I break up cuttle bone and place chunks into the enclosures. If you check it after several weeks you'll see grooves where they have been chewing on it. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Giga

I'll try the cuttle bone thing but p scaber bred really fast. 3 month have doubled there population is not more


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## run91

aspidites73 said:


> How big are the containers they're in? I have found it best to start them out on 16 oz. deli cups then, when I have 3-4 established cultures I put them all in a Sterilite Shoobox. I breed the dwarf whites and Giant Canyon. The Giant Canyon isopods breed rather slow. Quite the opposite for the dwarf white. Although I've never verified it, I once read that some isopods (i want to say P. scaber is one) can take 14-20 months to be reproductively mature.


I put them in shoebox size sterilite containers. I suppose that might contribute to why they are so slow. If they tend to produce faster in smaller enclosures, why not just use fly culture cups? Does that then limit the population after they have grown fast enough.

Also, regarding the use of calcium, what is the easiest way to do that? I have seen threads on the calcium substrate, but what else can be used. (That would be a lot of work or rather expensive for feeder substrate)


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## Ed

Giga said:


> I'll try the cuttle bone thing but p scaber bred really fast. 3 month have doubled there population is not more


The increased numbers doesn't mean that the culture has a stable population as of yet because those numbers are from the original breeders as the rest shouldn't be quite sexually mature yet. This is a contributing factor for feeding out and having the cultures become slow or crash. The culture needs to be setup long enough to allow for second and third generations to become reproductive. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

run91 said:


> I put them in shoebox size sterilite containers. I suppose that might contribute to why they are so slow. If they tend to produce faster in smaller enclosures, why not just use fly culture cups? Does that then limit the population after they have grown fast enough.
> 
> Also, regarding the use of calcium, what is the easiest way to do that? I have seen threads on the calcium substrate, but what else can be used. (That would be a lot of work or rather expensive for feeder substrate)


I think the smaller containers gives the appearance of greater productivity as the numbers are concentrated into a smaller space. One of the reasons I'm speculating this way is because there are greater resources that would support a population boom in a larger culture container.... I find it difficult to believe that the population would not resource availability as a primary limiting issue. 

I'm not sure why you think adding calcium to the cultures would be a lot of work or expensive. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## run91

Ed said:


> I think the smaller containers gives the appearance of greater productivity as the numbers are concentrated into a smaller space. One of the reasons I'm speculating this way is because there are greater resources that would support a population boom in a larger culture container.... I find it difficult to believe that the population would not resource availability as a primary limiting issue.
> 
> I'm not sure why you think adding calcium to the cultures would be a lot of work or expensive.
> 
> 
> Ed


That was my thought. It seems like smaller containers wouldn't force growth but prevent population growth beyond a certain threshold. 

My comment on price or work was concerning the clay substrate made from red art clay. I don't have the space to make it or store the materials and it seems rather expensive when sold (maybe because of shipping costs). What is the "easy way" to incorporate calcium cheaply? You said cuttle bone? As in the supplement for birds?


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## kgj

I would think clean eggshells would be a cheap and readily available source of calcium carbonate.


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## Dendrobait

cuttlebone would be a good option. I'd avoid eggshells due to contamination with other heavy metals. Another option would be extra/old reptile calcium(not a reptile calcium/multivitamin supplement).


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## aspidites73

run91 said:


> I put them in shoebox size sterilite containers. I suppose that might contribute to why they are so slow. If they tend to produce faster in smaller enclosures, why not just use fly culture cups? Does that then limit the population after they have grown fast enough.
> 
> Also, regarding the use of calcium, what is the easiest way to do that? I have seen threads on the calcium substrate, but what else can be used. (That would be a lot of work or rather expensive for feeder substrate)


I believe the advantage to smaller starter cultures is simply a matter of area needed to travel to meet another isopod. Once you have a few 16 ounce cultures going, combine them to a shoebox to facilitate more space for the increased number of isopods.

EDIT: if you're starting a culture with 100+ isopods, go right to the shoebox.


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## Broseph

I recently received a bunch of new starter cultures containing a disappointingly small number of adult isopods (but plenty of mites). Giant orange, dwarf white, dwarf striped, Costa Rican purple.

They went straight into larger containers. Every time I check on them, regardless of species, all the isos find each other and hang out together. Same thing with springtails too. Production SEEMS super slow, but 5 adult isos take a long time to become hundreds of adults isos (and I can see a decent number of babies now).

As for the mites, I periodically put a milk cap with banana and live yeast in the culture overnight and remove droves of mites the next day.


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## Kas

Broseph......what do the mites look like that you remove? Are they white or black? In my shoebox with orange isos, I see tons of tiny white "dots". Could those be mites or tiny babies?


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## Broseph

The white dots seem to be a detritivore species of mite. They don't appear to hurt other bugs, but they compete for resources. 

These are the ones that respond well to my "yeast traps." The traps are most effective when the culture has been starved of added food for a couple days.


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## Kas

Thank you for your explanation. I was afraid of tossing out baby isos


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## Ed

FWIW, some isopods also prey on mites.... 
There is at least one book that suggests using isopods to control mites in springtail colonies. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Kas

Ed said:


> FWIW, some isopods also prey on mites....
> There is at least one book that suggests using isopods to control mites in springtail colonies.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


That probably explains why the isos are doing so well and their shoebox is full of mites. They're giant orange so probably scarfing down the mites.


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## Jeremy M

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up temperature as a resolution here, as I thought it was one of the well-accepted most important determining factors in reproduction rates. These are tropical species and 70 seems on the low side to me. While they'll definitely breed at that, they may not 'boom' as you're expecting. My isos' productivity (dwarf whites) went way up when I moved them nearer to a heat source (as it were, inside a day gecko's tank). 

As for the smaller area to get a culture started, I've heard that this is true because the smaller isos (ie not giant oranges, which like to roam) are in closer proximity, and therefore more frequent contact, to each other, which leads to more opportunity for breeding. But I've also heard that that at least dwarf whites are parthenogenetic, which would rule that theory out entirely. Perhaps there still is some communal breeding response triggered from being in a group, or maybe it's just a matter of inaccurate estimates like Ed suggested. I always thought that it had something to do with a lack of competition- in a smaller culture, the isopods will make quick use of the available resources and have a chance to outcompete other potential competitors or pests. In a larger culture, the surplus of resources the smaller initial population of pods have available acts as prime habitat for an array of other organisms that fill the same niche. It's kind of like throwing a small slice of banana in with some giant orange pods; if you just have one isopod, the slice will rot and mildew before it's all eaten, whereas if you have 100, they'll eat the whole thing before it has a chance to mold. Just my thoughts on the matter.


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