# Large Variabilis group question



## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Hi all!

I'm in the middle of setting up a purchase for 10 southern variabilis. They will be held for me for a month or two while I set up the viv, but I want to get opinions on the tank size the would be well suited to keep these guys comfortable.

I was thinking of getting the 36x18x36 exo terra which should give around 100 gallons of space, as well as a nice sized footprint and height. I haven't purchased the tank yet, so if that isn't a good size then I can continue looking for other options for them.

I haven't made the order at this exact moment, so I wanted to check with you guys to see your opinions. I know thumbs don't need as much space as some of the larger frogs, but the southerns are larger thumbs, so I want to play it safe.

Thanks for your time!


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

After posting this thread I realized I should at least give an idea of my plans for the viv. That makes a huge difference vs just an empty glass box. 

I've been researching clay backgrounds.. which has been tedious because of so many different options.. 

I'm thinking of making a root bg with various root sizes pressed into the clay falling vertically. I also plan to make great use of wood pieces such as ghost/grape or whatever I can find to make a nice 'jungle gym' and add floor space. 

Tons of broms of various sizes, placement of sturdy wooden vines, and pretty much anything that will add to climbing sections that isn't just a big piece of solid wood. I prefer the more 'branchy' wood pieces that allow for them to forage through the bottom, or climb to the top.

Other than that, just nicely planted, a bit of moss here and there, a mixture of a couple of types of leaf litter, seeded with springs and isos.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Should work fine.

They like a lot of litter and a moist habitat, so spray often until the plants grow in. I find after the viv is 'mature' and the plants are sprawling, that the humidity stays high just from plant respiration.

They are a great thumbnail.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks Shawn!

I should have added, I have a mist king that I was saving for a larger viv then what I'm currently working with. I plan to get a couple of extra nozzles and use it for this one, so moisture shouldn't be a problem. 

I've been reading up on the southerns for some time now and I agree that they are amazing little frogs!

Aside from the added moisture, is there anything else that I would do differently for their care?

I've read over care sheets, but sometimes I know that members have their own tips and tricks that would be helpful. I really want to make sure that this is done right.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I use the UVB T5's from Todd at LYR.com

They like water. So ponds, containers, a BIG brom in the centerpiece that holds a lot of water....

Wait until you see how big they grow...as a thumbnail...they are large.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I thought about adding a pond to it, but was worried that it would cut into their space. I was able to build a fully functioning water feature in my other viv, and as it was a pain.. it did finally work out. I'd love to add water to this one as well.. but not at a risk of crowding them. Would there be space for that?
If not, I'm more than happy to fill some seed pods, broms, petri dishes, etc. 

I've read that they are terrible parents as far as caring for their young.. so I planned to pull any tads that I could find (if that even happens). Have you had that experience?

I've spoken to Todd a couple of times. He seems to be a great guy!

I'm using jungle dawn LEDs in my current viv. Would you recommend those over the LEDs?

Sorry for the amount of questions


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I just think with the screen top, you have the opportunity to add UVB, which I like.

Then cover the rest of the screen with a piece or 2 of glass to hold in more humidity.

BROMS look amazing, but lots of plants with containers would be more functional...for pulling tads 

That said, you could always just collect eggs from brom axils and raise in petri dishes.

S


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I really appreciate you taking time to respond to my (possibly endless) questions! 

I will move forward with the tank and frog purchase and start trying to design a bit. That is always the most difficult part of this hobby. I can't stick with one idea.. 

If anyone else has any tips for me I'd be more than happy to hear them! As for now, I need to go browse the numerous clay recipes and plant choices. I can't wait to get this build started


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## BlueDacnis1 (Jan 17, 2012)

Moriko said:


> I really appreciate you taking time to respond to my (possibly endless) questions!
> 
> I will move forward with the tank and frog purchase and start trying to design a bit. That is always the most difficult part of this hobby. I can't stick with one idea..
> 
> If anyone else has any tips for me I'd be more than happy to hear them! As for now, I need to go browse the numerous clay recipes and plant choices. I can't wait to get this build started


Hello Moriko
Here is my basti viv exactly like "I Think" you are wanting to do!


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Hi BlueDacnis1!

I wish I had an idea of what I was wanting to do lol. Since posting this I've thought about adding small caves, ledges, some nice crypts for the floor, and so many other things. My main goal is to try to keep it simple, but with all of the amazing vivs and construction threads on this board I can see me going overboard. 

I don't know if most of those are even possible with a clay background without some GS involved.. but I'll end up with some GS anyways to help with water wicking into the background.

Ohh.. the possibilities are endless! 

Lovely viv btw. Some beautiful broms in there.


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## BlueDacnis1 (Jan 17, 2012)

I have 3-other pictures to show you but i can't seem to get them to download, i can try and e-mail them to you if you want to see them. This is a 36x18x36 exo w/LYR leds on it awesome! The picture that you see now is a smaller one.


Moriko said:


> Hi BlueDacnis1!
> 
> I wish I had an idea of what I was wanting to do lol. Since posting this I've thought about adding small caves, ledges, some nice crypts for the floor, and so many other things. My main goal is to try to keep it simple, but with all of the amazing vivs and construction threads on this board I can see me going overboard.
> 
> ...


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

sports_doc said:


> I use the UVB T5's from Todd at LYR.com
> 
> They like water. So ponds, containers, a BIG brom in the centerpiece that holds a lot of water....
> 
> Wait until you see how big they grow...as a thumbnail...they are large.






Moriko said:


> I thought about adding a pond to it, but was worried that it would cut into their space. I was able to build a fully functioning water feature in my other viv, and as it was a pain.. it did finally work out. I'd love to add water to this one as well.. but not at a risk of crowding them. Would there be space for that?
> If not, I'm more than happy to fill some seed pods, broms, petri dishes, etc.
> 
> I've read that they are terrible parents as far as caring for their young.. so I planned to pull any tads that I could find (if that even happens). Have you had that experience?
> ...


Hi!


The real answer is that you can use BOTH.

By doing the mixed lighting, I and many others have gotten fantastic results.

Using LED, like Jungle dawns™ _for the "bulk" of the lighting..._ 
you are saving on electricity and cutting way down on heat.

And then by adding in a UV generating flo. light source... 
you are adding UV A AND UV B to the animals environment and the frogs are reaping the benefits.
UV A for vision and UV B for vit. D synthesis as starters.

It is MUCH easier and less complex than it sounds.

Since dart frogs do not need high levels of UV, 
they can do good with just a "dash". 

And having a UV gradient in the cage created by a partially blocked glass top is actually VERY GOOD.

_So there is NO NEED to cover the whole top with expensive solacryl or starfire glass._
You can if you really want to spend the money.
But one does not have to.

Areas of higher and lower UV - like what is created by using mixed lighting over glass and screen is actually LIKE PATCHES of UV Sunlight coming through a forest canopy.

And that is exactly WHAT YOU WANT. 

And a simple open area (of maybe 20%) of screen in the top under the UV bulb light source* is all that is needed. * 

Plus, the strength of the UV light source can always be manipulated to compensate for what is getting blocked by the glass and density of the screen anyway.

The easiest configuration one can use to achieve a mixed LED / UV set up is by using the good 'ol economical terra or Zoo Med canopies. 

They come in a variety of lengths. These light fixtures are good on stand alone tank installations especially. (vs. rack style installations.)

They have multiple sockets on sizes 18" and up.

So, as an example:
on say a 24" exo canopy (w/ 3 light sockets):

One can use 2 Jungle dawn™ LEDs in the 2 outer two sockets and a Repti Sun 5.0 (or 10.0* ) CFL bulb in the center socket to generate the UV A & UV B for the environmet.

To allow the right amount of UV "in" ....
all one needs to do is glass over the top everywhere BUT an area approx. 4" x 5" under the Repti Sun CFL bulb and you are in business!

Voila'!
Another perfect LED / UV set up. 

On bakers rack or solid shelving set ups, 
you can combine Jungle dawn™ LED strip and one HO T5 single bulb flo. light strip fixture.

I would personally use an Arcadia HO t5 bulb in it (usually the 6%* is fine).

And have the strip of screen (like you would have for venting anyway  )
running down lengthwise on the viv tops.
They key is to try and position the flo. light bulb more or less over the screen strip. bulb...

And ShA-ZaM! 
More *perfect* LED / UV set ups!

Many of the more progressive custom cage makers now "get it" , 
like Jason at Protean terrarium, and are designing the glass cage tops with the screen strips positioned to facilitate the placement of UV bulbs over the tanks.
And to get the best results in UV transmission through cleverly positioned screen strips without leaving too much top open to loose humidity.

*NOW...
If you vivs are very tall / large ..... 
or
they are heavily planted with a dense plant canopy 
or...
Your screening is like the real fine No-see-um mesh or...

any of the above variables that would cut down UV .... 

you can always switch to a higher UV out-put flo. light sourceto compensate what is getting blocked or filtered out.
(ie: Like the Reptisun 10.00 CFL or the Arcadia 12% HO t5 bulb.)

Plus if anyone has any questions on trying to decide what type / strength of flo. UV bulb to use ....
it is easy to consult with an expert on it so the whole thing will be set up right from the "Get Go". 

Below are some pics showing just a few examples of how to achieve an effective mix of Jungle Dawn™ LED and UV lighting.
click to enlarge to see screen and frosted glass tops on vivs being lit with Jungle Dawn™ 13w LEDs and Repti Sun & Zilla UV a/b CFLs.
Note: The plant growth is iNsAnE. 

Cheers!
Todd
[email protected]


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## BlueDacnis1 (Jan 17, 2012)

Can anyone tell me what a security token is, can't add pictures here!


Venutus1 said:


> Hi!
> 
> 
> The real answer is that you can use BOTH.
> ...


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

That would be great! I'd love to see a finished 36x18x36. I don't see many of them around. My email is [email protected]


Hi Todd! 

Wow.. just wow! That is a very informative post! lol

I'm currently using 3 LEDs from Jungle Dawn in my 24x18x24 so it may be helpful to replace one of those as you suggested. I love the idea of mixing the lights. I've been concerned with the heat so I went with the LEDs to maximize the light while keeping the heat in a nice range. My tank could take a little bit of added heat without any ill effects though. 

This really gives me a lot to read up on. The lighting aspect is something that is difficult to understand IMO. I'm sure it isn't as difficult as I make it, but I end up over-thinking everything with this hobby. 

I will most likely use the exo terra canopy with my new viv as well. I was instructed by Jungle Dawn to remove the reflector to lengthen the life of my LED bulbs. Would that have any effect on the other bulbs?


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

> Can anyone tell me what a security token is, can't add pictures here!


Sorry, I haven't heard anything about a security token before


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## Wings (Apr 1, 2012)

I'm late to the party here but I have 13 highland variabilis in a 75 gallon terrestrial setup. They are super active and Sports Doc is very correct about them loving a moist environment. I mist 5 times a day for 12 seconds and they are ALWAYS active and out. I moved it down to 2 times a day to try and allow for some dry-out time, and the activity level definitely went down. 

I have a small pond setup in the tank next to a large mock rock cliff, and they constantly lay eggs in the pond and in the film cans above the pond next to the cliff. I get eggs in the broms as well, but not as frequently as the cans or "pond". They absolutely love broms for sleeping and hanging out in though. Between my pumilio and vents, the variabilis make use of broms the most I think.

As far as lighting, I am blasting my tank with light, to the point of burning the plants almost. The frogs don't seem to mind. They are always out whether the lights are on their low setting or high. 

They do get big... I will try and take a photo of my obese female. You won't believe how big they get.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Wings said:


> I'm late to the party here but I have 13 highland variabilis in a 75 gallon terrestrial setup. They are super active and Sports Doc is very correct about them loving a moist environment. I mist 5 times a day for 12 seconds and they are ALWAYS active and out. I moved it down to 2 times a day to try and allow for some dry-out time, and the activity level definitely went down.
> 
> I have a small pond setup in the tank next to a large mock rock cliff, and they constantly lay eggs in the pond and in the film cans above the pond next to the cliff. I get eggs in the broms as well. They absolutely love broms. Between my pumilio and vents, the variabilis make use of broms the most I think.
> 
> ...


Oh wow, 5x a day! That will cut my plant choices down dramatically! lol

Yeah, I plan on doing two rows of broms on my background. My 'current' plan for the tank is to have a plain glass back with large pieces of wood placed horizontally across in a couple (2-3) areas covered in broms and a couple of other air plants. I'm thinking around 10-15 broms depending on their size of course. Some larger, some smaller, and most likely a large center brom. I also want to keep the floor pretty open, so I'm trying to decide on the best way to add a water feature..

So much thought goes into these vivs to make them perfect for the inhabitants, so I appreciate any help. As a matter of fact, if anyone just wanted to post their variabilis viv pics, that would be amazing!

I would love to see your obese female btw lol. If my leucs keep chowing down like they have been, they may give her some competition


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## Wings (Apr 1, 2012)

Ask and you shall receive. This is only the second fattest female in the tank. There is another biggin but she is hiding atm.










One of my males. I'm still practicing with my camera so don't get harsh 









And their tank... It is getting broken down as of yesterday  I had more plants in it before this photo. Moving sucks


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

Wings... That tank is epic.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Very nice! Thanks wings 

That is a chubby female lol. I love the pic of your male. He seems to have so much personality! I appreciate you sharing your pics with me.

What is the length of your tank?


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## Wings (Apr 1, 2012)

Thanks Gocubs =D
Hopefully the next one will be even better 

Its a standard 75g so 48 1/2 x 18 1/2 x 21 3/8

They definitely have a personality!


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Wings said:


> Thanks Gocubs =D
> Hopefully the next one will be even better
> 
> Its a standard 75g so 48 1/2 x 18 1/2 x 21 3/8
> ...


Thanks! I'm trying to view different vivs to get inspiration, but that is difficult when you don't have the measurements to compare to your own.


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## BlueDacnis1 (Jan 17, 2012)

Hello Tonya
I think i figured out how to get the pictures of the 36x18x36 w/the bastis in it, so here goes. Hopefully it will show how bright these new LEDS from LYR are.
Regards Jerry A


Moriko said:


> Thanks! I'm trying to view different vivs to get inspiration, but that is difficult when you don't have the measurements to compare to your own.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

Thanks Jerry!

Happy that you were finally able to post them.  They really look great.


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