# is there any interspecies competion when utilising different isos in the same viv



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

We have D white which i stock every viv with on set up I also have G.orange which i intend to stock vivs with,around a dozen adults per viv to act as an inviv clean up crew,plus breeding stock to supply feedstuff in the form of young. We also culture a small grey fast moving iso,i believe from peru,and finally have a culture of natives which i utilise the offspring as feedstuff for our darts,which contains Onicllus(sorry can't think of the species name) more of which in a minute. 
My basic question is will all these species live in harmoney in a viv,ie do they occupy separate niches? or do they compete against each other.
Ok as a side note:
I have read about onicillus being utilised to rid a viv of nemerteans,and have realised that 2 vivs i set up almost a year ago,and not stocked with frogs(one has last week) do not contain nemerteans,well i can't see them if they are there. Because these vivs have been running so long now,an extraordinary number of Dwarf white have bred in them,i have to feed them almost daily,and have constantly removed handfuls to set new cultures up with huge success,when i say extraordinary i mean silly numbers,if i miss feeding then the place where i feed has them all over the surface looking for grub,not usual behaviour for them as they normally stay away from the light in my vivs.
When we got our summersi a week ago, i actually removed 2 handfuls as i was concearned about them stressing the frogs,the frogs will get on top of the numbers in time, and i can always add more if i have taken too many out. If i have found a way to clobber the nemerteans,by just using D. whites i am warey now of utilising the other species. With the sucess of my wild culture i was thinking of setting up one purely of Onicillus to sort this problem with nemerteans,but am unsure if the other species would be counter productive...or they would all work together.
Thanks for any thoughts anyone has on this
regards
Stu


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I have Dwarf Whites, Dwarf Gray/Striped, and Giant Oranges established in all my vivs. They seem to get along fine.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> I have Dwarf Whites, Dwarf Gray/Striped, and Giant Oranges established in all my vivs. They seem to get along fine.


Just out of curiosity, how long has that been the case? I ask because I have Dwarf Whites and Dwarf Striped in all my tanks as well, but have noticed over time the Dwarf White population becoming less noticable. I even set up a shoebox culture with both species in it, and now many months later all I can find are Dwarf Striped. 

I don't know much about the reproduction of isopods but have wondered if the Striped just out-competed the Whites, or if they could have hybridized. I would assume hybridization would be much more unlikely with the Giant Oranges (ouch).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Boondoggle said:


> Just out of curiosity, how long has that been the case? I ask because I have Dwarf Whites and Dwarf Striped in all my tanks as well, but have noticed over time the Dwarf White population becoming less noticable. I even set up a shoebox culture with both species in it, and now many months later all I can find are Dwarf Striped.
> 
> I don't know much about the reproduction of isopods but have wondered if the Striped just out-competed the Whites, or if they could have hybridized. I would assume hybridization would be much more unlikely with the Giant Oranges (ouch).


It has only been about 8 months or so. Oranges have only been in about 4 months. In a shoebox culture, I would expect one species to outcompete the others. So far, in my vivs, both the whites and the gray/striped populations are growing well. It is my hope that with a deep enough substrate, and plenty of leaf litter, there will be areas for all of them to establish.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry no free pdf.. but it's good evidence.. JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

In a small area such as a viv, species that have the same food/space requirements are always in competition (one of the reasons I understand mixing frog species is discouraged).

That said, while I'm fairly confident that whites/grays/oranges are looking for the the same food items in the viv, they might not be looking for them in the same place. For example, I've seen that dwarf white spend most of their time in the substrate, and I've heard that striped greys and oranges spend a good deal of their time on the surface. In this scenario they are not directly competing with each other for resources.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> In a small area such as a viv, species that have the same food/space requirements are always in competition (one of the reasons I understand mixing frog species is discouraged).
> 
> That said, while I'm fairly confident that whites/grays/oranges are looking for the the same food items in the viv, they might not be looking for them in the same place. For example, I've seen that dwarf white spend most of their time in the substrate, and I've heard that striped greys and oranges spend a good deal of their time on the surface. In this scenario they are not directly competing with each other for resources.


 
Yes the do directly compete and there are a number of papers that document that this can change growth rates in the isopods however the link I included above demonstrates active cannibalism among several species (with implications it is more widespread). Even though those links say there is an error the links work. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

To each of you i am very greatful for your thoughts,i desparately want to give my frogs as varied a diet as possible,but if there is interspecies competion(Ed i am embarressed to say i don't fully understand the paper but i have tried to read it),are the dwarf white the best option nutrionally. As i seem to be having such good results with dwarf whites,coupled with with the unproven observations/ laymans results on the nemerteans,which might well be coupled with very high density population of dwarf white,is there a benefit to adding the other isos to our vivs?
Guys i am really greatful for all your imputs,i am now trying to weigh up the pros and cons as to whether the benefits of maybe slightly different nutritional values of the different species,outway the above potential for competion,while in the back of my mind i have this nagging theory about density of D.W iso clobbering the nemerteans.
Ed apologies with not really being able to understand the paper i struggle with my own countries language always have,its taken me nearly an hour to write this,so i think it makes sense,i'll go though it again tomorrow when not so tired.

thanks again all
fascinating
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

No need to apologize. 

It has been shown that in isopods that not only do they compete for resources and that this can slow or reduce growth of isopods but a number of species cannibalize unhatched eggs and/or unhatched isopods carried around by other females. In addition, at least in the lab cultures, they will actively predate on things like fruit fly pupae and possibly larva. As for which provide the best nutrition, that is unknown because other than a couple of species having thier calcium to phosphorus content analyzedthere isn't any other information that would allow you to make a determination. The dwarf white isopods are supposed to be softer which would imply that they have less calcium but until that work is done we simply don't know. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed, are you saying it is a bad idea to have more than one species in a viv or do you think that with a thick substrate and plenty of leaf litter, multiple species may still be able to carve out a niche for themselves over an extended amount of time?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think it may work in an enclosure (although over time I have seen tanks where I started with several species end up with mainly just one (dwarf striped..). It is going to be an issue with trying to set up long running multispecies cultures. In the literature, there may be stratification by size of the species in assorted resources... so paying attention to the behaviors in the enclosures will help. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks Ed for the kindness and the breakdown,of the paper, and Doug for the imput,I guess my best method will be to stock a couple of different vivs both of similar design ( for tincs) one with dwarf white and the second with a mixed population to see what happens over time. I don't actually keep the dwarf striped,which appears to be the most er.... dominant/aggresive? So it might be interesting to see how the other 3 compete. 
Although we don't know the values of Ca relative to each species(and i have also read that the Dwarf white are said to be softer bodied),i am right to asume that iso are one of the best sources of Ca in our feeder animals? or is this not known. Or to rephrase that,what is the best source of Ca in our commonly cultivated feeders 
As ever big thank you,for your time and thoughts,all. Shaz and i are helped much by many people in this hobby with lots of knowledge and experiance,as Zoomie said the other day maybe sometimes you guys don't realise how much you help folks like us whom have this addiction and are trying to cram all this. Sometimes maybe spelling it out maybe a better way then clicking a button or a word 
regards
Stu
......off to chant hatch over some superblue eggs, pull another batch, set up more of those blummin iso cultures,feed those tads, water all these plants,see if i can finish this tad thingy,and maybe stop just for a minute and marvel at some beautiful frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Isopods are considered a major source of calcium in birds (and for hatchlings) in the wild however this doesn't take into account that the frogs still need a good source of D3 otherwise they can't metabolize the calcium properly. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Ed, are you saying it is a bad idea to have more than one species in a viv or do you think that with a thick substrate and plenty of leaf litter, multiple species may still be able to carve out a niche for themselves over an extended amount of time?





Ed said:


> I think it may work in an enclosure (although over time I have seen tanks where I started with several species end up with mainly just one (dwarf striped..). It is going to be an issue with trying to set up long running multispecies cultures. In the literature, there may be stratification by size of the species in assorted resources... so paying attention to the behaviors in the enclosures will help.
> 
> Ed


Same experience here. Obviously a lot of other variables could come into play (what is the physical makeup of the tank strata, to what degree is the frog predation affecting the surface crawlers, tank size, original populations, available vegetable matter for the iso's, etc). That being said, I can't see how adding many species of isopods can be a "bad" thing. At worst, the cannibalized iso's serve to boost the competing population. Pill bugs gotta' eat too.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Obviously the success I have had over the last 6 to 8 months is a very short period of time in "the life of a viv". I will take cannibalism and competition into account. I'll make sure I keep a nice deep layer of leaf litter and continue to feed the bugs, "in viv". I like to throw pieces of raw squash in, watermelon rind, grapes, banana, etc. to try to keep them thriving.
Thanks for the input!


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> Isopods are considered a major source of calcium in birds (and for hatchlings) in the wild however this doesn't take into account that the frogs still need a good source of D3 otherwise they can't metabolize the calcium properly.
> 
> Ed


Absolutly and the uvb lighting through optiwite and the dusting should enable this,thankyou again
Stu


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Obviously the success I have had over the last 6 to 8 months is a very short period of time in "the life of a viv". I will take cannibalism and competition into account. I'll make sure I keep a nice deep layer of leaf litter and continue to feed the bugs, "in viv". I like to throw pieces of raw squash in, watermelon rind, grapes, banana, etc. to try to keep them thriving.
> Thanks for the input!


Thankyou Doug you have pretty much pre-empted my next question,which was to have been: i feed my vivs when they are frogless with tetramin and readybreak to sustain the large population build up,but was concearned about what i should utilise once frogs were in the tank,and would it be safe to continue with these? but your more natural feedstuffs seem a better option,your culturing threads on iso have had a big impact here and are part of the reason i have so many cultures of these on the go and the sole reason for the giant orange
thankyou
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can add small pieces of things that isopods like to eat (like slices of potato)... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

stu&shaz said:


> Thankyou Doug you have pretty much pre-empted my next question,which was to have been: i feed my vivs when they are frogless with tetramin and readybreak to sustain the large population build up,but was concearned about what i should utilise once frogs were in the tank,and would it be safe to continue with these? but your more natural feedstuffs seem a better option,your culturing threads on iso have had a big impact here and are part of the reason i have so many cultures of these on the go and the sole reason for the giant orange
> thankyou
> regards
> Stu


Any time Stu, glad I could help. Another good reason to go with more natural stuff for "in viv" feeding comes from Ed. Your bugs will store Tocopherols in amounts WAY beyond what they should have. Your frogs, in turn will have elevated levels. If I understand it fully, this will block them from absorbing proper amounts of Calcium, etc. (Did I get the gist of it, Ed?) A search for "Tocopherol sequestering" should turn it up pretty readily. Tocopherols are used as a preservative in dog foods and fish flake foods.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Any time Stu, glad I could help. Another good reason to go with more natural stuff for "in viv" feeding comes from Ed. Your bugs will store Tocopherols in amounts WAY beyond what they should have. Your frogs, in turn will have elevated levels. If I understand it fully, this will block them from absorbing proper amounts of Calcium, etc. (Did I get the gist of it, Ed?) A search for "Tocopherol sequestering" should turn it up pretty readily. Tocopherols are used as a preservative in dog foods and fish flake foods.


In essence you have it.. it actually competes with D3 or vitamin A if present in the diet at the same time. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Any time Stu, glad I could help. Another good reason to go with more natural stuff for "in viv" feeding comes from Ed. Your bugs will store Tocopherols in amounts WAY beyond what they should have. Your frogs, in turn will have elevated levels. If I understand it fully, this will block them from absorbing proper amounts of Calcium, etc. (Did I get the gist of it, Ed?) A search for "Tocopherol sequestering" should turn it up pretty readily. Tocopherols are used as a preservative in dog foods and fish flake foods.


Cracking Doug,yes i remember reading about this,somewhere on the feeding section,but this one i had forgotton about,fantastic.... thankyou for bringing it back to prominance in my mind.
Ed again thanks,we grow our own organic grub, so no chemicals to worry about with food peelings.
excellant thoughts again both, hugely appreciated
regards
Stu


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> In essence you have it.. it actually competes with D3 or vitamin A if present in the diet at the same time.
> 
> Ed


Got it. So the tocopherols compete with D3 and A. With the tocopherols present in very high levels, the D3 and A levels will be too low in your frogs. Without D3, it doesn't matter how much calcium you get to your frogs as you need D3 in order to properly absorb and utilize calcium.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Always cool to have it spelled out Doug thanks again.As always i keep thinking on these things and have another question directly related to the tocopherols.
If i have been feeding fishflake and have the said build up,How long will it take for these high levels of tocopherols to subside,once i have started feeding my organic scraps/peelings etc?
thanks again guys
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> Always cool to have it spelled out Doug thanks again.As always i keep thinking on these things and have another question directly related to the tocopherols.
> If i have been feeding fishflake and have the said build up,How long will it take for these high levels of tocopherols to subside,once i have started feeding my organic scraps/peelings etc?
> thanks again guys
> regards
> Stu


Unknown but it typically is related to reproduction. If you are just using the isopods to seed the tank it should be fine. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

so are you saying that the next generation is tocopherol,low or that hormonal changes caused by breeding ,in the iso, trigger the reduction?

Greatful for the speedy reply Ed! i will change the diet on some cultures,over to organic peelings etc,(well i have already actually) and use these a bit later on when i need to utilise these feeders to top up viv stocks.
thanks again for the help on this and many other things,always thought prevoking to hear your words.
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> so are you saying that the next generation is tocopherol,low or that hormonal changes caused by breeding ,in the iso, trigger the reduction?
> 
> Greatful for the speedy reply Ed! i will change the diet on some cultures,over to organic peelings etc,(well i have already actually) and use these a bit later on when i need to utilise these feeders to top up viv stocks.
> thanks again for the help on this and many other things,always thought prevoking to hear your words.
> ...


If I remember correctly, the tocopherols are sequested into breeding (either into the eggs or sperm) so if there aren't any new high level inputs of tocopherols then the levels will decline. Keep in mind that they do need topcopherols. On more thought, I would only be really concerned if you were feeding the frogs the isopods with a lot of frequently. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> If I remember correctly, the tocopherols are sequested into breeding (either into the eggs or sperm) so if there aren't any new high level inputs of tocopherols then the levels will decline. Keep in mind that they do need topcopherols. On more thought, I would only be really concerned if you were feeding the frogs the isopods with a lot of frequently.
> 
> Ed


We feed alot of wild food,fruit flys are the staple say 50/60% springs we feed irregularly, some are natives some cultivated. wildfood is centered around aphids but also includes a variety of other tiny things like small spiders iso not actually feeding, BUT, because i have gone about this so slowly Ed i have some vivs that have been running for a year nearly the population of dwarf white in some of them is astounding,(sorry if i am repeating myself i'm not sure i have said this on this thread),I actually just housed a pr of R. summersi in one such viv and removed a large quanitiy from where i feed the iso,as i was concearned about then being to much for the frogs. This roundabout leads me to the reason for asking why you are concearned if a high percentage of the diet is iso,because although it not a high part of my "fed" diet,in this one case it is utterly concievable that for a while this pr of frogs might be eating lots of tiny hatchling iso, although with the caviat of the above,"fed diet" in which springtails are a greater part,than my larger frogs.
These are our first thumbs Ed, so i believed we were ,er, "making up" for our novices short commings by having a good population there whilst we get our heads around such tiny frogs
All feeds are dusted with repashy apart from the obvious iso. We also talked to Allen about the possible use of his vit A suppliment,after reading your posts on vit A. But have not used it as he said we were going in the right direction,i have fears about is it hypovitiminosis? OD on vits.
Its too early for me to say that we have any problems tad viability seems good,the only loss my fault/stupidity. Our first tad is just leaving the water with good strong legs, even though his parents are young frogs. So really so far all good,...... i think
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the frog is feeding on dusted foods and on isopods (or other arthropods) with a high tocopherol content, the tocopherols compete for uptake with both vitamin A (retinyl acetate or palmitate) and vitamin D3. The ratio in the diet shouldn't vary significantly from 10 to 1 to 0.1 of A to D3 to E (tocopherols) or the frogs could have conditional deficiencies of A or D3. If the arthropods that are ingested along with the dusted food items has a high sequestered tocopherol content, it throws that ratio out of kilter and can result in conditional deficiencies of A and/or D3. 

Ed


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Wow this has turned into a great thread! Love to get more in depth information regarding my feeders.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

ok lets just say this is happening Ed,my hopes will be that with what you have said about the breeding, of iso, and my having stopped using the fish flake,when the frogs entered the viv that this is not ...especially as its my guess/obsevation,that the frogs will be feeding on newly hatch iso. How would these defficincies manifest themselves in a pair of young adults,would i see any visable symptoms as a stockman. I had read about your thoughts regarding egg viability and vit A,but these are not breeding or calling, so is there anything i should be looking for. The frogs themselves seem to be in good health,active hunters and to be found all over the viv top to bottom.
As always thanks for the replies and the education 
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> ok lets just say this is happening Ed,my hopes will be that with what you have said about the breeding, of iso, and my having stopped using the fish flake,when the frogs entered the viv that this is not ...especially as its my guess/obsevation,that the frogs will be feeding on newly hatch iso. How would these defficincies manifest themselves in a pair of young adults,would i see any visable symptoms as a stockman. I had read about your thoughts regarding egg viability and vit A,but these are not breeding or calling, so is there anything i should be looking for. The frogs themselves seem to be in good health,active hunters and to be found all over the viv top to bottom.
> As always thanks for the replies and the education
> regards
> Stu


The issue is that some of the issues won't be noticed unless you do whole body analysis of the frogs (impractical to say the least).. the best thing would be to just consistently supplement the frogs. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Thanks again sir
regards
Stu


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