# 2 down, 2 to go



## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ok so this is still very serious. I have been having issues with my Lamasi and went from 4 to now 2. I have two left, one of them which seems in perfect health and the other one spazzing out like every day. 

I have lost two due to something which i cant figure out. Fecals have been done a few times coming out all clean. I have even had a vet here test the soil, plants and water for parasites and nothing. The frogs are surely fed well and i dust every two days. (one day reptical one day herpivite ). 

Here is what i came up with

- vitamins are not expired
- no worms or anything in fecal, soil,plants,water
- temp is at a nice 75
- I feed springs-ff- and now micro pinheads
- nothing toxic in tank ( silicone etc )
- all wood and leaves were boiled

I dont whats going on. Unline the other two this one has double the spazz movements are the other but is still alive and a few min ago just saw him take a nice cricket. His actions consist of him playing dead once or twice a day, loosing balance of his legs and sometimes evern falls from the broms. I do not bother him or herras them, and i can be 10 ft away and still see him go nuts. He is already in his own separate tank, i do not want to move him to quaranteen due to stress and also the tank has more then enough food for him to munch on. Any ideas feel free, i am in no mood to loose another.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Froglet,
Have you been to someone else's place and seen a long term set up? Has anyone knowledgeable seen your setup? Assuming humidity is high then I would call and talk to the breeder that sold you the Lamasi and get their insight. If all this has been done with no success then I would personally move one of the last two to a examination tank. Get something like a new 20 gallon long tank and wash it out with warm water, put paper towel on the bottom and about 6 broms in there that you wash off throughly and remove all the dirt. Also put some black film canisters in there and again make sure to wash everything in warm water and have the paper towel on the bottom soaked. I would then put an new culture that is just starting to produce in there and I wouldn't have any ventilation at all. Hand spray down once a day and watch to see if that helps. If it does move the other one. I recently did this with some P. Lamasi I have that were not looking as good as I would expect in a larger tank and the plumped up and 2 of them started calling and now they look great. 

The spasms are notice that you are now on a death watch and something is wrong. I know you have figured that out already the hard way but at this point I would not assume that you have any of the above issues in your post correct especial the presences of something that may be toxic to these animals. Be aware that these have been known to be difficult and just because someone has good luck does not mean that we all do, they may die for no reason that you will ever be able to identify, thats why I would split them and see if that helps. Sometimes just a move can be positive or horribly negative as well I am afraid. Have you called Dr. Frye or used any medications at all? I recently noticed my Regina being a little punky and gave him baytril another drug and within 4 days he picked himself up and is doing great and eating very well but I caught it early and quite honestly have no idea what was all of a sudden ailing him. Here is another link I would read if you haven't already.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... scue+force

I hope that gives you more ideas for getting this fixed and good luck.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

David a really do apreciate all the advice. I have writen to the breeder and still waiting on response. Yes i am talking to Dr Fry right now and we will see what sort of medicines he will tell me to get. I have him already separated in a small 2 1/2 gallon tank but might try a larger one with your advice. As for tanks being a long term set up, the answer is yes. 

I will keep posted on what happens. I have the sick on separate but will not move the other one from the old tank, he/she looks very well and eats like a horse and i do not want to cause any more stress then i have to. I also have pedialite in the paper towels in the small tank, see if that helps any =).


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

it really looks like your are making the right moves. the second medication I use is Metronidazole, which is an appetite enhancer that I got from Dr. Frye. I have had very good luck with that and baytril for taking frogs out of a "unknown" slump.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Metro i do know what it is, but what is baytril for. Just basic antebacterial medicine ....................... ?


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I am no Doctor though I like to play one here on the board..............just kidding. I would ask Dr. Frye on the specifics and make sure you let him know that it is for a thumbnail. I believe the concentration is different for each size of pdf.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Yeah David he is aware it is a Lamasi.. He told me Metro so i will have to get some..... 

PS.. The lamasi is still eating...


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ok i have him soaking in a calcium bath. For those of you who dont know what this is, its 1 cup of water with 1 tablespoon of repcal and bathe the frog for 30 min. I will also be getting some Metro for him on Tuesday, lets hope he like to eat medicine 8) .


will keep posted


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Wow I am really sorry this happened. What i would do.

get a sterilite or tank 10-20gal and put paper toweling on the bottom, put some sphagnum in a corner with as many springtails on it as you can get there, add a forest of pothos or other hardy plant that will make them him her feel secure, add some broms film canisters and a do not disturb sign. 

AND follow dr. fryes medications


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Thats already done lol ... its been done but no moss...


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Metronidazole is typically applied to the frog's back, not orally. I'm treating a basti with it currently. I think the rule is one drop a day for thumbs.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

im only used to giving Metro to dogs lol.. This will be the first time i adminiter to frogs. I assume they will come with instructions hehe


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Chytrid and some viruses do kill frogs in this manner. Have you had the frogs necropsied or tested? 

Ed


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ed I could not have a necropsie done due to the fact that i didnt find anyone here that does them. And i only got fecals done, im not sure how much that would tell me about Chytrid.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A fecal will tell you nothing about chytrid. I think Frye used to do necropsies. You would need to ask him about them and then ship the frog overnight. The carcass would need to be refrigerated (do not freeze). 

The frogs can be treated prophylactically but the medication would need to be prescribed. See http://www.open.ac.uk/daptf/froglog/FROGLOG-46-1.html

Ed


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Unfortunately Dr Fry no longer does necropsies or else that would have been the first thing :lol: ...


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

Most people don't get the necropsies done partly because of the rareity of finding someone to do it but also because of the price. Necropsies aren't cheap and can run you up to $300. Metronidazole will help for the short term (appetite etc.) but won't do much long term if it doesn't clear up the underlying issues. Is there any swelling? How many fecals have you ran as well? You don't always come up with eggs every time and this will tell you nothing if there is a bacterial infection going on. Frogs are hard. They are not as easy to examine or treat so you have to go down the list and eliminate possibilities. 

I'm sorry to hear about your issues and I hope they become resolved.

Ryan


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Well honestly if i would have found someone to do a necropsi i would have done it.. these frogs arent cheap and i already lose more then 300 bucks worth. I had 3 fecals done so far and nothing. 

As an update he is looking better. I have him in his tank with paper towels and pedialite.... He has received two calcium soaks so far and is eating prety well..... I am pumping him with calcium. ( not sure if thats whats wrong but it cant hurt ). This morning i even saw a fruit fly crawl on him and he actually moved his legs properly to shake him off so thats a good sign his legs are better. As for now who knows what might happen but so far so good....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

contact http://www.zoopath.com/ .


Ed


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

awomse Ed that is a great place but right now the body is no longer with me..... I trew it out already. I will keep that site just in case. Thanks

Lets just hope i dont have to loose another


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

i don't mean to hijack the thread Ed, but are you speaking of ranaviruses like that kind that were reported in Hymenochirus? It started with a B, like Blastodium or something.


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

Can you explain your dusting again for me? Are you dusting every day on a rotation or are you dusting every two days on a rotation? In reading your first post it sounds like you dust every other day and are on a rotation which means your frogs are only getting the vitamins every four days. I am wondering if this is enough? That is if this is what your are doing. Glad to hear that it seems to be perking up a little. Good luck!


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I am positive this is enough... some top breeders dust once a week if not less lol and they have no poblems...... 

The Lamasi is doing well right now.. he looks better but still not out of the woods... i will get more medication this week for him and will keep posted on condition


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

If this is enough then why are you having to give the frog calcium baths? I am just questioning because unlike my larger species, most of my thumbs don't jump right on the food when I dump it in. Since this is the case I am sure some if not most of the supplements have been washed off before they eat. Now, if you're only supplementing each vitamen once a week how much are they actually getting? Just something to think about. Some may dust only once a week but many dust at every feeding too. Good luck!


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

I agree with you 100% on that. The only thing is all my frogs eat as soon as i feed them. I dont have that many so i do have time to watch them all eat and make sure they are eating theyre calcium..... 
This is just a precaution along with other medicines.. It is not for sure that it is calcium but to prevent it i will feed every day ( rotating )

I will keep posted and like i sayd he is still alive.. Using Metro and soon some Silver Sulfa from Dr Fry

Thanks for the advice


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ok 

So Playboy is still alive. He is doing very well on Silva Sulfur and Metro, and even though i want to put him back in the tank i will wait another two or three weeks. Thanks all for advice, it doesnt look like it was calcium defeciency more like something viral or fungal  . 


Thank you all for your advice


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Thanks for the update and good luck. From what you know now do you think your imitators may have died from the same thing?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Hey David
The Imis did not die from that, i am sure. I explained there that the cause for the imi death was uncured silicone. Another one of the big reasons why Playboy is still alive is because he fought to be alive. Other lamasi died within 2 days of getting sick while this bugger wanted to live  . I have all my frogs now on medicines just as precaution and they all seem very well.........


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Today was a great step towars recovery. I had to pick up Playboy to change his tank and for the first time since hes been sick he did not go into defense mode. I was sooo Happy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

this is an indication that it was not a defensive behavior but an indication of another underlying issue....


Ed


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

That is correct Ed =)... i consider myself good looking so why would my frogs be afraid of me


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## Guest (Mar 4, 2006)

froglet said:


> Ok
> 
> Thanks all for advice, it doesnt look like it was calcium defeciency more like something viral or fungal  .



If you were pumping him full of Calcium, and he recovered, why do you assume it wasn't a Calcium deficiency?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

He has not had calcium in two weeks... he is on Silver Sulfa and hes loving it... Started calling last night again =0... soooo happy.. Getting some weight on him also, about time..


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2006)

He hasn't had calcium in two weeks? Isn't that a little drastic?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I think he means that the frog hasn't had a calcium soak in 2 weeks. I'm sure he is supplementing ff's with calcium.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Thanks David hehe.. Well yeah he does have calcium like he always did, but i havent soaked him in two weeks. Honeslty the way he reacted when i gave him meds leads me to believe that it was something fungal and not a calcium deficiency. BTW he started to call again and is finally a healthy looking fatty =)


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

Good to hear that he seems to have rebounded and is healthy again.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Lamasi...*

What type of lamasi are they?

Standard
Green Legged
Pang.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I believe that they are standards.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Yes they are standards. They are by far my favorite frog and make sure i keep a constant eye on them, there is no way im loosing another one :shock:


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Unfortunately, the standards are very sensitive. 



froglet said:


> Yes they are standards. They are by far my favorite frog and make sure i keep a constant eye on them, there is no way im loosing another one :shock:


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Mel i agree with you 100%, if i knew how sensitive they are i would have never gotten them but now that i have them i cant get enough :lol: .


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I agree, the Standard Lamasi are very beautiful.

I have spoken with others at length about the vitality of their offspring - most agree that a lack of "GOOD" bloodlines and line breeding could be one of the causes. 

I do not know all the details, but here is what I remember. Most (if not all) of the standard lamasi in the US came from 1 shipment from Europe. From the shipment, 2 breeding pairs were established. For all intensive purposes, we can refer to them as the "West" & the "East" coast lines. 

Due to line breeding, these two lines have been kept seperate and only recently have been reintroduced. 

With this limited gene pool, many have noticed they will have robust froglets/frogs one day, and dead ones the next. 

I do not claim to be an expert at this, and am not saying 1 line is better than the other or who to buy from or not to buy from. What I am saying, is Lamasi (standards) are not a beginner frog! Unexpected deaths have been an unfortunate byproduct of a limited genetic pool. 

Melis


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2006)

Melissa, I noticed on your website that you breed standard lamasi. How are yours doing? How many froglets do you produce/sell in a month/year? Do you have any secrets or advice for us?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Mel i think you got the point right on that lineage. I will be going to Spain next year and have been in contact with some breeders over there. They have made some deals with me and i will be bringing back new Lamasi blood into the states. Lets see how long that takes =)......


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2006)

Nice! We'll have some new bloodlines in the US. You have all the legalities worked out then. CITES and all.

Melissa, about the West Coast/East Coast division of lamasi groups, which do you have? And who recently merged them as you earlier suggested.

Also, can I get on your waiting list for standards?

Thanks.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

what aspects of their environment are they sensitive to?
disease?
humidity?
temp?
IE could they take 80 degree temps occasionally?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

*Twinser Wrote :*


> what aspects of their environment are they sensitive to?
> disease?
> humidity?
> temp?
> IE could they take 80 degree temps occasionally?


All those aspects make any frog sensitive. But i have found that Lamasi are extremely sensitive to heat, they hate anything above 75. Ofcourse due to their sensitive nature disease is not too far behind.


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