# tap water



## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

How long do you "age" your tap water for? When I had fish I would leave water in a bucket for 24 hours and mix in a "water cleaner".
(I usually use bottled water or rain water for my frogs.)
Is it pretty much the same concept or should I go further? If so what else should I do to it? Or how long should it "age"?

thanks!
Megan


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

we have soft water here so no wait 4 me 4 spraying but tads get a 24 hr wait 
craig


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

I have reverse osmosis water at my house. Do you guys think I should still age it?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Most tap water in the US has chloramine in it which according to my county water dept. chemist , in their tests the levels did not drop much even after 27 days. I use tap treated with Prime, Bill


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed can probably fill you in more correctly since he's a biochem guy, but I was told in the past that chloramines don't tend to be an issue with adult amphibians if they're put into a tank with a high enough organic load because the load strips the chloramines. I used to age it about a week when I was using tap water.


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## acedwards (Nov 28, 2009)

For RO water you shouldn't have to age it, however, if you are using it on live plants it might be wise to purchase a chemical called RO Right made by Kent aquarium products. Mainly what it does it provides natural water chemistry for RO and distilled water. Because these types of waters are so pure, they have no trace of hardly any elements. This product adds essential elements such as Ca, Mg, K and other trace elements like Fe, and Zn needed for plants to thrive and possibly frogs. I'm not too sure about if it's needed for frogs but it is needed for fish so it wouldn't hurt to be on the safe side. thatfishplace.com or drsfostersmith.com should have some for sale. 

Tap water, however, should be chlorine free after 24hrs, but it wouldn't hurt (especially if you have live plants) to add a dechlorinator that removes heavy metals to your water because they do not dissipate as easily as chlorine. I use Prime made by Seachem for this because it also helps neutralize ammonia levels in the water as well, but chemicals such as Stress Coat by API should work just as well for chlorine and heavy metals.


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

acedwards said:


> For RO water you shouldn't have to age it, however, if you are using it on live plants it might be wise to purchase a chemical called RO Right made by Kent aquarium products. Mainly what it does it provides natural water chemistry for RO and distilled water. Because these types of waters are so pure, they have no trace of hardly any elements. This product adds essential elements such as Ca, Mg, K and other trace elements like Fe, and Zn needed for plants to thrive and possibly frogs. I'm not too sure about if it's needed for frogs but it is needed for fish so it wouldn't hurt to be on the safe side. thatfishplace.com or drsfostersmith.com should have some for sale.
> 
> Tap water, however, should be chlorine free after 24hrs, but it wouldn't hurt (especially if you have live plants) to add a dechlorinator that removes heavy metals to your water because they do not dissipate as easily as chlorine. I use Prime made by Seachem for this because it also helps neutralize ammonia levels in the water as well, but chemicals such as Stress Coat by API should work just as well for chlorine and heavy metals.


Thats interesting. I'm familiar with Kent marine products. I just worry about adding chemicals to water used in an amphibian enclosure since their skin is so porus and their so sensitive. Is this RO Right for sure safe for them? Also, would that be okay for water used in tadpole rearing?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Leidig said:


> Thats interesting. I'm familiar with Kent marine products. I just worry about adding chemicals to water used in an amphibian enclosure since their skin is so porus and their so sensitive. Is this RO Right for sure safe for them? Also, would that be okay for water used in tadpole rearing?


My frogs are all egg feeders so I know absolutely nothing about raising tadpoles but just in case you're using RO at the moment - all I read and heard from people who raised tads is that they raise them in some type of "tadpole tea" water that has been made by boiling or soaking leaves like indian almond leaves in it, or in water that has leaves actually in it, which is probably the opposite of RO, the RO is probably too pure for them, hopefully others will give the real reasons and methods they use but I just wanted to give you some emergency info in case you had them in or were about to put them in RO


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> My frogs are all egg feeders so I know absolutely nothing about raising tadpoles but just in case you're using RO at the moment - all I read and heard from people who raised tads is that they raise them in some type of "tadpole tea" water that has been made by boiling or soaking leaves like indian almond leaves in it, or in water that has leaves actually in it, which is probably the opposite of RO, the RO is probably too pure for them, hopefully others will give the real reasons and methods they use but I just wanted to give you some emergency info in case you had them in or were about to put them in RO


Thanks. I've only raised on tadpole and that was back in april/may. I used RO and had no problem, but I also only had the tad for four weeks before in crawled out of the water. But I have heard that RO water by itself is too pure for the tads, and even frogs. I used Distilled for awhile as well, but heard its pretty the same as RO, but with no impurities. But I am intersted to know what is the best water to use. I guess tap water is okay then as long as it is left to age for a period of time.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Leidig said:


> Thats interesting. I'm familiar with Kent marine products. I just worry about adding chemicals to water used in an amphibian enclosure since their skin is so porus and their so sensitive. Is this RO Right for sure safe for them? Also, would that be okay for water used in tadpole rearing?


Absolutely 100% safe.

I also raise Discus which require soft, acid water. We use R/O Right to adjust trace elements as our R/O systems strip the water to ridiculously low levels as part of our system also has D/I.

I use the same soft, acidic water from the storage tanks we use for Discus, for our frogs. FYI the acidity of the water also helps to keep down bacteria.

To put it rather simplistically, your R/O unit basically strips everything from the water, good AND bad. R/O Right is only replacing the trace elements you want.

The TDS on our local water is over 900ppm, a lot of that is garbage you wouldn't want to drink if you knew what it was. After R/O, the water is like 7ppm TDS. (Total Dissolved Solids) Which is too pure to be of practical use, as well as making your water susceptible to pH crashing.


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## acedwards (Nov 28, 2009)

That’s pretty much the purpose of RO right. It adds essential elements to water that RO and distilled water don't have. I'd feel safer adding the RO right than not especially on the fact that when I took chemistry in college one of my professors with PhD in chemistry told me how harmful distilled and RO water can be to humans because of the fact that it was to pure. He also said the same for fish so I figure if the animals effected by distilled are RO were that diverse than frogs could also be affected. So to make a long story short in my opinion RO right should have no negative effect on your frogs and is probably a good idea (it’s used for fish which are more sensitive to water parameters than frogs or really anything for that matter).


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## jon (Mar 12, 2008)

Straight RO water will absorb atmospheric CO2 and become mildly acidic. Also, it contains so little in the way of minerals that it will leacah them out of whatever it runs across; plants, substrate, etc. It's not a fast process, but it will absolutely damage plants over the long term. I don't have any idea what the effect would be on frogs.


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

Thanks for the information guys. Thats very helpful. I'll have to go pick some RO Right today.


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

Thank you for the information. Back on the topic of tap water, I'm currently using Start Right, by Jungle. It says "Complete water conditioner, removes chlorine & chloramine" on the back it says it "neutralizes harmful metals". Could I use tap water treated with Start Right to mist my tanks? Would the treated tap water be safe to use for tadpoles or should I just stick to bottled water?


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## acedwards (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't see any problem with it. I use spring water myself that I buy in gallon jugs at wal-mart, but I have many friends who use tap water with just a regular dechlorinator added to it and they have no problems with their frogs. I'll even occasionally use tap with dechlorinator added when I run out of water and am to lazy to go to the store and get some more.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

acedwards said:


> That’s pretty much the purpose of RO right. It adds essential elements to water that RO and distilled water don't have. I'd feel safer adding the RO right than not especially on the fact that when I took chemistry in college one of my professors with PhD in chemistry told me how harmful distilled and RO water can be to humans because of the fact that it was to pure. He also said the same for fish so I figure if the animals effected by distilled are RO were that diverse than frogs could also be affected. So to make a long story short in my opinion RO right should have no negative effect on your frogs and is probably a good idea (it’s used for fish which are more sensitive to water parameters than frogs or really anything for that matter).


The original citation for which distilled water caused high mortality in tadpoles and fish was later shown to be due to heavy metal salts contaminating the distilled water process way back in 1895... however the negative has persisted in the literature ever since although there is now literature in some physiology journals that shows the purported effects of RO/DI are not as bad had been percieved over the years. 

This is the original citation 
Lock, F.S.; On a supposed action of distilled water as such on certain animal organisms; J. Physiol.; 1895; 18(4): 319-331

Description: A review and comparison of prior information on the supposed danger of distilled water on tadpoles and tubifex worms. Data indicates that contaminants of metal salts residues from the distillation process and not the distilled water is the causative agent in the reported deaths. 


Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Megan i use spring water for my tads, i think it is good for them due to the mineral content. When I lived in Hamilton, Ohio I aged tap water for 24 hours and it was great for everything, frogs discus tads, all did well. Moving to Florida I switched to spring after killing many tads, trying to age tap water here is like nuclear waste, it's half life is like 500,000 years. I did use Amquell for a while but even using that with Floirda water i felt was giving me "issues". It all depends on the water you start with, likely water conditioner will be fine in treating your water and it should be safe for all applications. I use spring water for spraying tanks as I have many Pums and their rearing in tanks as well as my tads. For my Discus I use RO with a small squirt of trace elements. I also would look into using Prime water conditioner, you use a very samll amount in the water you are conditioning, all my fish people swar by it.


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

Thank you so much for the info! It realy helped. I live in ny so I think bottled water would be my most safe bet for taking care of tads.


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## acedwards (Nov 28, 2009)

Ed said:


> The original citation for which distilled water caused high mortality in tadpoles and fish was later shown to be due to heavy metal salts contaminating the distilled water process way back in 1895... however the negative has persisted in the literature ever since although there is now literature in some physiology journals that shows the purported effects of RO/DI are not as bad had been percieved over the years.
> 
> This is the original citation
> Lock, F.S.; On a supposed action of distilled water as such on certain animal organisms; J. Physiol.; 1895; 18(4): 319-331
> ...


I was talking to my uncle today who has a PhD in chemistry from Vanderbilt about the subject of RO vs. Distilled when it comes to animal consumption and he explained how RO water went through the deionizing process and how deionized water was so bad because the water has the need to pick up ions which it does in body thus depleting the body of electrolytes, and minerals as the water depletes these of their ions slowly killing the animal. He also said it may cause cells to lyse or rupture. He said that without some type of supplement added to RO water to neutralize the water he would highly recommend distilled over RO. Distilled water he said does not go through a deionizing or reverse osmosis process eliminating this threat, however, he did say that after about a while of using distilled water some side effects may be seen in the animal due to the lack of some essential elements found in the water. The subject on this matter is still being debated, whether RO water alone is bad for animal consumption or not. I’m not saying my uncle is right on the subject, I’m just saying that with his background I think it’s best to heed his warning. To be on the safe side I'd still dose with something like RO Right. I'd hate for anyone’s collection to be lost.


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

So today I bought Seachem's Equilibrium, which is Seachem's version of Kent's RO Right. Has anyone tried this product? Also, the dosage isn't that clear to me since I'm putting it in one gallon jugs. The dosage is one tablespoon for 20 gallons. I wasn't sure what that amounted to for one gallon, so I guess about 1/8 of a teaspoon. Do you think thats the right amount?


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## acedwards (Nov 28, 2009)

If it is for the same purpose, then there should not be a problem with it. I personally prefer Seachem to Kent. As far as dosage goes though, there is approx 4.928mL in one teaspoon and approx 0.051mL in one pipette drop so if you do the math that is approx 96.627 drops in one teaspoon (dosage for 20 gallons of water) and approx 4.831 drops per gallon. I'd round up to five drops. The difference in that and one eighth a teaspoon is about seven drops, so if you have a pipette that would help.


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## Leidig (Apr 10, 2009)

acedwards said:


> If it is for the same purpose, then there should not be a problem with it. I personally prefer Seachem to Kent. As far as dosage goes though, there is approx 4.928mL in one teaspoon and approx 0.051mL in one pipette drop so if you do the math that is approx 96.627 drops in one teaspoon (dosage for 20 gallons of water) and approx 4.831 drops per gallon. I'd round up to five drops. The difference in that and one eighth a teaspoon is about seven drops, so if you have a pipette that would help.


I actually got the powder mix, so pipettes wont work.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

acedwards said:


> I was talking to my uncle today who has a PhD in chemistry from Vanderbilt about the subject of RO vs. Distilled when it comes to animal consumption and he explained how RO water went through the deionizing process and how deionized water was so bad because the water has the need to pick up ions which it does in body thus depleting the body of electrolytes, and minerals as the water depletes these of their ions slowly killing the animal. He also said it may cause cells to lyse or rupture. He said that without some type of supplement added to RO water to neutralize the water he would highly recommend distilled over RO. Distilled water he said does not go through a deionizing or reverse osmosis process eliminating this threat, however, he did say that after about a while of using distilled water some side effects may be seen in the animal due to the lack of some essential elements found in the water. The subject on this matter is still being debated, whether RO water alone is bad for animal consumption or not. I’m not saying my uncle is right on the subject, I’m just saying that with his background I think it’s best to heed his warning. To be on the safe side I'd still dose with something like RO Right. I'd hate for anyone’s collection to be lost.


I wouldn't normally enter into this but I prefer not to let incorrect information complicate people's understanding of things. I'm going to have to assume you got your wires crossed between your uncle and here. R/O water is not Dionized water. R/O water is, effectively, very finely filtered water. Deionization is a different process and requires different equipment. It removes salts from water and relies on their ionic nature to remove them from the water. It leaves behind any species that are not ionic in nature, including organic molecules and even bacteria. Distilled water contains nothing whatsoever that's not derived from water itself or dissolved gases. Between the three, distilled water is the purist, followed by R/O (if the apparatus is good enough) and then D/I water. While none of the three is a friendly environment to any animal, if I were a fish and I had a choice, I'd go for the D/I or the R/O.

I have read a number of anecdotal accounts of people raising tadpoles in distilled water. What I'm sure most leave out is that they also put other things in there with the tadpoles, such as food and Indian Almond leaves. The distilled water pulls any salts it can get out of the food and the leaves. While I would never try it myself, leaving a tadpole in unadulterated distilled water for a few days would surely stress the tadpole to the point of death due to osmoregulatory overdrive.

There's a summary of water types here. This is pretty basic chemistry/physical chemistry so I won't drop my qualifications on you.


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

So, would you say that both RO and distilled water should be treated with something that would return trace elements into it?
What about "Kent Marine Essential Elements"?

Replaces biologically important trace minerals
Does not contain phosphates, nitrates or gluconates
For reef and marine aquariums
http://www.petco.com/product/108648/Kent-Marine-Essential-Elements.aspx


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## acedwards (Nov 28, 2009)

johnc said:


> I wouldn't normally enter into this but I prefer not to let incorrect information complicate people's understanding of things. I'm going to have to assume you got your wires crossed between your uncle and here. R/O water is not Dionized water. R/O water is, effectively, very finely filtered water. Deionization is a different process and requires different equipment. It removes salts from water and relies on their ionic nature to remove them from the water. It leaves behind any species that are not ionic in nature, including organic molecules and even bacteria. Distilled water contains nothing whatsoever that's not derived from water itself or dissolved gases. Between the three, distilled water is the purist, followed by R/O (if the apparatus is good enough) and then D/I water. While none of the three is a friendly environment to any animal, if I were a fish and I had a choice, I'd go for the D/I or the R/O.
> 
> I have read a number of anecdotal accounts of people raising tadpoles in distilled water. What I'm sure most leave out is that they also put other things in there with the tadpoles, such as food and Indian Almond leaves. The distilled water pulls any salts it can get out of the food and the leaves. While I would never try it myself, leaving a tadpole in unadulterated distilled water for a few days would surely stress the tadpole to the point of death due to osmoregulatory overdrive.
> 
> There's a summary of water types here. This is pretty basic chemistry/physical chemistry so I won't drop my qualifications on you.


Sorry I should have been more specific. I actually asked him about the RO/DI process, and got the response that I did, however, I did ask him about just a regular RO system and was told the same thing I can’t remember the exact reason he gave me for that answer but the next time I talk to him I’ll ask. That’s the reason I didn't speak of the two separately. I think he mentioned that the reverse osmosis process would leave the same unstable environment of the water but don’t quote me on it. My prime purpose of the post was to stress the importance of using a supplement like RO Right. Sorry about the confusion.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

dam630 said:


> So, would you say that both RO and distilled water should be treated with something that would return trace elements into it?


No, it should be treated with a smaller-than-normal dose of R/O rite or Electro rite - these return non-trace salts to the water. Trace elements are not the problem and are distinct from the normal salt content of water - even in a rain forest, rain water and condensation pick up salts and other minerals from whatever they touch.



dam630 said:


> What about "Kent Marine Essential Elements"?


No that product is not appropriate and is not the same idea as R/O rite or Electro rite. The product you've linked is intended to return trace metal salts to marine aquarium water to mimic the plethora of weird and wonderful metal ions in sea water and not found even in trace amounts in most fresh water.



acedwards said:


> Sorry I should have been more specific. <snip>


I'm sure your uncle explained it correctly but it got a bit mixed up on the way to the forum. Reverse Osmosis and Dionization are two completely different processes - there's no "regular" Reverse Osmosis, just Reverse Osmosis. You could operate them in tandem of course but that would be rather expensive. R/O water is more similar to Distilled water - both difficult places to be for any aquatic organism.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

johnc said:


> No, it should be treated with a smaller-than-normal dose of R/O rite or Electro rite - these return non-trace salts to the water. Trace elements are not the problem and are distinct from the normal salt content of water - even in a rain forest, rain water and condensation pick up salts and other minerals from whatever they touch.


So would there be an appreciable difference between using R/O water with an additive like R/O rite, or just using spring water?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> So would there be an appreciable difference between using R/O water with an additive like R/O rite, or just using spring water?


Not really, but you have more control on the water content if you use R/O rite with distilled or R/O water.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Is there any harm in simply adding an appropriate dosage of dechlorinator to typical city water and using it?


I understand Chlorine will gas off... 24 hours should be enough... doing something to agitate the water will encourage this process... stirring works fine though adding a bubble wand works excellent...

Chloramines do not gas off the way chlorine does so if your local city water has chlormine in it "aging" alone will not be enough... We should also keep in mind that chloramine is chlorine and ammonia bonded together. So it is important to use a dechlorinator that is designed to be used with chloramine, not just chlorine...

I am a big far of Seachem products and have used Prime to pretreat city water for fish over the course of many many years.


I'm quite new to frogs but have kept/bred fish for many years... I just don't see the purpose is using RO / DI / Distilled water... am I overlooking something?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I think you're right about using tap water - if it's treated properly then it should be fine.

The advantage to using distilled water or R/O water is that you can control exactly what goes in it and its pH. Plus distilled water for misting is a no-brainer.


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

Toby_H said:


> I'm quite new to frogs but have kept/bred fish for many years... I just don't see the purpose is using RO / DI / Distilled water... am I overlooking something?



besides the previously mentioned reply stating that you have better control of your water, one thing R/O will also give you is peace of mind.

Reconstituted R/O water never changes, is always the same and is always 100% reliable. 

City water changes. you'd be surprised how frequently. Mostly it's harmless though. However it only takes once......... 

An R/O unit with a booster pump provides a fairly small amount of waste water, well within acceptable conservation values. I use the waste water on the lawn, have been for years. 

And an RODI Unit with a booster pump isn't particularly expensive at all. they can be had for the cost of a pair of frogs.


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