# F1 f2?



## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

What is the F1 F2 thing. I was looking to buy imitators and the guy said they were brother and sister frogs, but it would be ok to breed them because they are F2 frogs. Looked for old posts on the subject but could not find them. If any one could explain or point me towards the post that does that would be awsome. Thanks


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

F1 is the first generation from the wild caught specimens, F2 the second, and so on. By the way, I know the guy you're thinking about buying from and I have siblings of the frogs you're looking at. They're stunning frogs at a great price, and he's a good guy.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

PS my male is in my avatar


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

thanks alot. So inbreeding is no problem with frogs?


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Nope, just breed them randomly, don't make any selections based on size (unless they're sickly), color, etc. F2 is pretty fresh out of the wild in this hobby as well, as it's hard to get legal, healthy imports.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

So at what point does inbreeding become a problem?


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## AJ50504 (Dec 3, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> So at what point does inbreeding become a problem?


So far as I have read/heard there has been no valid evidence that the inbreeding of dart frogs has ill effect . Sometimes they live in smaller populations in the wild, and inbreeding will happen . Some people will track blood lines, and find a new blood line OF THE SAME SPICES . and breed them with the existing line they have.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

AJ got that, if you can find someone that has frogs of the same collection site as yours, but that have been kept seperately for multiple generations, those can be used to diversify the genetics.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

So Would I want to lean towards F1s or F2s? Is there any difference in how they are kept or their behavior?


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Really doesn't matter, as far as care goes it's really CB (captive bred) vs. WC (wild caught). CB animals are easier to care for and less likely to be diseased.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

like Bob said, in breeding amphibians isn't a problem like it is with say mammals. if you inbreed your frogs your not going to get a retarded 6 toed frog that likes licking the glass, but there is a draw back in inbreeding. with inbreeding your not getting as big of a pool of genes so if one frog has a debilitating gene it is much more likely to pass it on to future generations. in time inbreeding on down the generations can result in weaker frogs. with that being said F1s are the most desirable CB frogs and what you should strive for if given the option.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I would always try to breed unrelated individuals if possible.


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## hyperborean (Mar 30, 2009)

I may be inexperienced, but I think that if you are planning on selling the offspring, you should at least make the effort to not inbreed them. I mean, you took the enormous financial responsibility to get these creatures, you probably shouldn't be selling bargain basement frogs to other people who are just going to match a pair of your inbred offspring and try and sell their even more inbred babies. Of course, if you're doing it for your own amusement, go to town, but only sell them to people who want just one for their own entertainment, don't propagate a bad thing.
I should explain the reason I call inbreeding a bad thing. I know for a fact that in most animals, and even insects, genetic diversity is a good thing and there are many checks and balances to prevent inbreeding. For example pheromones, pattern recognition, and migrating of young. I can't tell you for sure that inbreeding is going to cause the ultimate decline of the PDFs but I have taken a few classes in genetics, and as a general rule, inbreeding in plants=good, inbreeding in animals=bad. I can cite studies that indicate that the F7 generation of BICYCLUS ANYNANA (a butterfly) is when inbreeding starts causing noticeably detrimental mutations. 

A source on the butterflies
BioOne Online Journals - INBREEDING DEPRESSION AND GENETIC LOAD IN LABORATORY METAPOPULATIONS OF THE BUTTERFLY BICYCLUS ANYNANA

The source I think everyone should read:
"However, depending upon G-K
distance and interference, frogs can attain in 3 generations, or 3 years, the same
degree of homozygosity (F = .99 to .60) as 9 generations of full-sibling matings
in the house mouse (F = .86)"
from: PARTHENOGENESIS AND GENETIC VARIABILITY. I. LINKAGE AND INBREEDING ESTIMATIONS IN THE FROG, RANA PIPIENS -- Nace et al. 66 (2): 349 -- Genetics

Homozygosity is not necessarily bad, but it IS what causes mutations to become prevalent.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks for the scientific look. Exactly what i was looking for.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

With Cichlids (Fish)… inbreeding isn’t a problem at all… excessive inbreeding is a huge problem…

As mentioned above, if one individual in the breeding program has a genetic weakness to something… it’s offspring will often have the same weakness but in a recessive state. This means it is not effected by the weakness, but passes the potential to it’s offspring. If two individuals both have the same recessive weakness, then a % of their offspring will have the fully manifested weakness, and a % will have the “recessive” version of the weakness…

The more we inbreed the more we create the likelihood of compounding these recessive qualities into manifested qualities…

Not all genetic weaknesses/characteristics follow the same pattern… but many do follow this common process…

One way to get a clearer understanding of this is to consider the way Albinism or Leucism is passed down when breeding… now consider the unique coloration to be a genetic weakness… Albino x Albino = all Albino babies… Albino x Standard = Standard looking babies with Albinism in a recessive state… Albino x Recessive Albino = (approx) 50% Albino… etc…

I completely agree/understand inbreeding in amphibians/fish are worlds apart from inbreeding in mammals… and inbreeding in reptiles is somewhere in the middle… but regardless of the Class of Animal a genetic bottlenecking will occur…

As to where the line is between “safe” inbreeding between animals a couple generations from the wild… and “excessive” inbreeding occurs… I have no clue… that one I must leave to the amphibian focused scientists and the well experienced PDF breeders… I’m not willing to speculate myself…


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

bobberly1 said:


> F1 is the first generation from the wild caught specimens, F2 the second, and so on. By the way, I know the guy you're thinking about buying from and I have siblings of the frogs you're looking at. They're stunning frogs at a great price, and he's a good guy.


This was the understanding I had, based on my work with endangered native plants. I was informed by many on this site that here F1 refers only to the parents not being related (sibs) to each other, not that they are one generation from the wild. I have a feeling that different people use these terms in different ways. Technically, the way they should be listed is as F1 from the wild, or F1 from un-related parents, but I don't think anyone would follow this advice. So it remains complicated.

Richard in Staten Island>


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AJ50504 said:


> So far as I have read/heard there has been no valid evidence that the inbreeding of dart frogs has ill effect . Sometimes they live in smaller populations in the wild, and inbreeding will happen . Some people will track blood lines, and find a new blood line OF THE SAME SPICES . and breed them with the existing line they have.


when looking at inbreeding issues, you can't compare the wild population with captive populations as the pressures on the wild populations can reduce/prevent negative gene accumulations while the artificial situations where survivial of as many offspring as possible are enhanced in captivity can cause inbreeding issues to occur more readily. 

It is unlikely to see any obvious mutations in inbred dendrobatids. You are much more likely to see what is known as inbreeding depression where fertility drops off long before deformations become obvious. 

Ed


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

The F in F1, F2 or so on… stands for filial

Filial - Genetics Of or relating to a generation or the sequence of generations following the parental generation.

This numbering system was established to track how many generations into an experiment something was…

Then we borrowed it to track how many generations into captive care creatures are. It’s not the best labeling system for us as it wasn’t designed to do what we are doing with it. Also in scientific use the experiment would be described in detail which would give many details to the situation. Since we are many breeders each with the freedom to do their own thing, no such consistency could ever be established.

One of the biggest confusions I’ve seen with it is when an F1 animal is bred with an F4 animal… are the offspring F2 or F5... There are strong arguments each way, but in the end the filial stops adequately tracking # of generations from the wild and thus should no longer be used to describe these offspring.

I do agree with Woodsman that we would be better serving ourselves if we were to describe what we are counting generations from… such as F1 from wild, or F1 from related parents…

But in the end we cannot blame the filial numbering system for failing us… as it is we who are trying to use it for something it was not meant to do… or at least we are not defining/controlling the “experiment” in which we are using it on…

Researching details on this labeling system is very difficult as every experiment has the right to create it’s own rules/definitions of the system. So be careful not to read how, for example, Wolfdogs use the system and then falsely assuming that is the standard for all usage.


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## hyperborean (Mar 30, 2009)

I totally agree with Ed. Inbreeding depression leading to infertility is definitely going to be the first problem you see. This is the big problem with the North American Cougar. There are so few of them in the wild and their ranges are so big that they can only find their siblings to mate. This causes bad mutations (and improper methylation) to build up and now inbreeding depression is setting in and most of the new cougars are infertile or close to it.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Thats depressing, cougars are beautiful animals. While i would not want to meet one up close and personal in the wild, I'd like to at least know they are there. Anyone ever see Benji the hunted back in the day? Thats where my soft spot came from


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