# How to culture Isopods / Woodlice and Springtails



## Pumilo

I’m shipping a bunch of bugs out and this is my care sheet for them.

*Isopod / Woodlice culturing *

These are shipped “concentrated”. There will be too many isopods in the container I ship them in too try to culture them this way. You will want to set them up as soon as possible in a bigger container. For the Dwarf Whites and the Dwarf Greys you could use a fruit fly culturing container or a 1 quart jar. I prefer to start mine in small Ziplock style containers. King Soopers makes a knock off, Kroger one, for very cheap. I use the 24 oz. size which measures about 6” x 4.5” x 3” tall. It looks like this.


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## Pumilo

For Giant Spanish Orange Isopods I like to go straight for the larger size as Oranges are much more active and they will do better with more space. I also use the larger size as your Dwarf Whites and your Dwarf Greys outgrow their original, 24 to 32 oz container. The larger size is also available from Ziplock or, better yet, King Soopers/Kroger. It is 76 oz. or 9.5 cups. It looks like this, plus a pic of the two sizes side by side.


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## Pumilo

The reason I don’t go straight for the bigger container for the whites and greys is so they are in close proximity to each other for breeding, while the populations are lower. The oranges are so active that this is not necessary for them. With whites and greys, grow them in the small containers for a month or two. When your population is visibly growing, it's time to move them to their bigger home.
Regardless of your container choice, don’t forget the air holes! I use a safety pin, heated with a candle or lighter, to push through the lid, melting your hole in. I have been using about 15 or 20 small holes in one end of the smaller containers and about 30 or 40 in one end of the bigger container. Putting them in one end may help allow the isopods a choice in hanging out on the wetter side or the drier side.

*Substrate choices*
I am having excellent results on ABG Mix mixed with 50 percent hand crushed leaf litter. We use oak leaves from our tree in the backyard. Any non toxic leaf litter will work but Magnolia may not be the best choice as we want it to be able to break down easily for the isopods to eat. ABG Mix is available from Josh’s Frogs.
ABG mix (4 quart)
You can find the recipe for it here if you want to make your own. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html
ABG works well because it is light and airy, stays moist, and is packed with organics that your Isopods/Woodlice can eat.
A cheaper alternative would be a peat based mix with plenty of organics mixed in. Something like this.
2 parts Peat Moss (this is the pulverized, brown, dirt like stuff)
1 parts Orchid Bark (supplies wood for the woodlice)
1 part charcoal (I like the Cowboy or Frontier brand from Lowes because it is cheap. Throw some chunks in a pillowcase and smash them into about ¼ to ½ inch bits)
4 parts hand crushed leaf litter
It is a good idea to fully moisten, and then microwave your substrate, to kill off any potential bug eggs.

Your substrate should be kept moist, but not saturated, at all times. Isopods/Woodlice require humidity and humid air or they will quickly die.
I lay several pieces of brown, corrugated cardboard on top of the culture. I like to cover roughly 2/3 of the surface with the cardboard. Your cardboard will have to be replenished from time to time as it breaks down and is eaten.
Here is a shot of the type of oak leaves that has been working well for us. Also, a shot of a completed, producing culture, and just some Giant Oranges wondering where lunch is.


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## Pumilo

We have also had good results culturing this method http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/46452-how-i-culture-woodlice-isopods.html but I believe my first method has reaped better harvests for me. I'm sure different people will have differing results. I must admit the the extremely low maintenance approach that MarkBudde's method presents, is tempting and does give nice results too. I will always be using his suggestion of Ultra high quality dog food even if I decide to discontinue my jars. 
Here you can see some of my "BuddeJars" and in the culture you can see some Dwarf White Isopods and some of the cardboard strips decomposing into dirt. You can also see where I decided to experiment with starting to add some fish flake to some of them.


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## Pumilo

*Feeding your Isopods/Woodlice.* 
So many great foods to try. Ultra high quality dog food is great. We like to crush it into a powder first. Quality fish flake food is also great. They go absolutely NUTS over fish flake food! The good thing about fish flake and dog food is that it offers the necessary proteins along with all the added vitamins and minerals. If you only feed vegetable bits, you are missing out on calcium and a lot of other good things. I’m going to reference my son’s post here as it is great for Isopod food choices. It also talks about how much to feed.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/64919-great-isopod-woodlice-culture-foods.html
Basically you want to feed small amounts of food, once or twice a week. Only feed as much as they are eating. If you are seeing mold, skip a feeding. Too much mold can wipe out a culture. Remember that’s it’s better to be feeding not enough, than it is to feed too much. When we feed too little, it’s not a problem because of our substrate. They have peat moss to eat, wood bits, leaves, and cardboard (which is just processed wood), lots of good stuff to snack on until you get the mold under control and can add more scraps.


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## Pumilo

*Summary and Feeding Out*
That’s pretty much it. Don’t forget to mist your culture now and then if it needs it. Remember, moist but not saturated. A good rule of thumb is this, If the cardboard is dry, it could use a little misting. To feed out of your culture, lift a square of cardboard and brush the bugs into a small container. I like to use a tiny modeler’s paintbrush for this. Dump it into your viv. If you want, you can brush the adults back into your culture first, then brush the babies into your feeding container. In fact, you pretty much always do Giant Oranges that way as your frogs can’t eat them anyway.

When your production is high enough, you will want to take a group of adult Isopods and try to establish them in your viv for in-viv food production and janitor duties.


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## Pumilo

*Giant Spanish Orange Isopods Only*
The following is for Giant Oranges only. I have posted it elsewhere but this is where it belongs.
Everything above applies to Giant Oranges but I have been working with a method to drastically increase their production. Here it is.
I started with about a dozen adult oranges. I set them up in a plastic shoebox with half ABG mix and half hand crushed oak leaf litter. I put several squares of brown cardboard on top. Media mist be kept moist at all times. Any time the cardboard looks dry, we mist it. We took a paper clip and melted about 50 tiny air holes in the top. These are the foods we use. Great Isopod / woodlice culture foods
Our orange isopod production is very good and one of the things I credit it to is this. I leave the adults in the culture for only about one month, maybe two. Only until we see a good amount of babies scurrying around. Then we pull all the adults and move these adults on to a fresh culture. Using this method, I am up to three cultures in three months. The original 12 have had enough offspring to seed about 15 half grown individuals into 10 different vivs. So that's about 150 right there. Plus, the ones from culture number two are getting close to half grown and there must be another 150 there. We wait until they are half grown because they are going into thumbnail and pumilio vivs and I figure at half grown, they are big enough that they won't be eaten. Also, they can begin to reproduce at about half grown so that the babies will be lunch and the bigger ones form a thriving colony.
We recently pulled 10 of the bigger ones to throw in with the original 12 adults, simply to build upon the breeding culture population. I've been really pleased with how quickly I have been able to build the population.


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## Pumilo

Springtails--it's coming, need a break!


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## 31drew31

Awesome write up's Doug!


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## randa4

Really great information--thank you!


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## CleanLine

Thanks Doug...going to try your mix this weekend and a few culture!

Chris


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## JimO

This is perfect! Just what I was looking for - thanks Doug.


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## Pumilo

You're welcome guys! Ready for part 2?


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## Pumilo

*Springtail Culture*
There are a million different ways to culture springtails. I am presenting only one method here, with a possible variation for the Huge Black Tomocerus. This is the method that works well for me. There are some other great methods out there if you want to experiment.
I culture on charcoal but it cannot be properly shipped that way. I know people do anyway, but there is a large initial die off as the charcoal tumbles and crushes your bugs. I want you to be able to see your culture crawling with bugs NOW, not in a month. Therefore, I ship them out in a peat culture. Here is how we are going to transfer the peat culture to a charcoal culture.
The following supplies will be needed.
1) We are going to use the large size Ziplock / King Soopers / Kroger brand container. It is the 76 oz. or the 9.5 cup size. It measures 11” x 7” x 3” tall. Shown in picture 1.
2) I like the Frontier or Cowboy brand of charcoal available from Lowes. Any hardwood, or lump, natural style charcoal will work, but it’s nice and cheap at Lowes. Shown in pictures 2 and 3. You can use any horticulture charcoal, or even aquarium carbon, but that gets expensive!
3) Food. We will be using Active Bakers Yeast or live bread yeast. Shown in pics 4 and 5) You can find that 2 lb. bag at Costco for about $3 or $4 making it very cheap!


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## Pumilo

Put your charcoal in a heavy bag, or better yet, an old pillowcase. I have also just wrapped some in a towel. Whack it with a hammer! You will want a variety of sizes but anything over about 1.5 or 2 inches is going to start cutting down on surface area, or living space for your bugs. There will be lots of smaller pieces too. It’s all good and usable.
Drop it in a pot with some purified water and boil it for 5 or 10 minutes. Boil it longer if you need to use it right away. This kills off any possible bugs and molds and also helps it to soak up water. Now I like to let it soak overnight to really suck up that moisture. Fill your plastic shoebox with some wet charcoal. You are only going to go about half full for now. Add a bit of purified water, maybe a quarter inch or so in the bottom. Make a hole in the charcoal with your hands, big enough to set your culture of springtails into. Pop off the top. If you’re with me so far, it should look like this.


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## frogparty

nice write up. I prefer a completely edible substrate for my woodlice culture, and have been using pressure cooked madrone bark with excellent results. I only feed vegetable scraps, and dump left over dusting calcium and vitamins into my cultures as well, which they relish( something that had been posted here previously that I was skeptical of, until I tried it)


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## Pumilo

Now we are going to feed the culture with a sprinkling of Bakers Yeast. Not too much. You’ll get the hang of how much to feed as time goes by. For now let’s say maybe a heavy pinch or two, or perhaps 1/8 teaspoon maximum. But we are ONLY sprinkling this on the charcoal, NOT on the peat. Now you want to scoop the peat gently towards the outer rim of your small, shipping culture container. You are simply trying to sort of build up a hill for the springtails so they can easily escape the dish and get out into bigger plastic shoebox. Put your lid on tightly. Leave them this way for a week or two. When you feed, make sure you don’t get any in the peat container. This will lure the vast majority of springs into your main culture. 
In a week or two, when most have moved over, pull the peat container out, feed the peat container and cap it. Put it aside for a back up culture or to build new cultures out of once they repopulate. Set up a friend with a culture so you have somewhere to turn if you crash yours.
Now you want to finish gently filling your main shoebox culture with charcoal and feed it.


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## Pumilo

*Feeding your culture*
We like to use Active Bakers Yeast as it may be less likely to carry grain mites into your cultures. You will get a feel about how much to feed. Best results will be had by checking and feeding your culture every 2 or 3 days. If there is still yeast left, you are feeding too heavy. When and if your top charcoal looks dry, you can mist it.
There are lots of other foods, but they may be more likely to carry grain mites in. I have considered taking some of these other foods, like:
Baby rice cereal
Baby oatmeal
Quality Fish Flakes
Ultra premium dog food, ground up
Malt O Meal
Take these dry foods and mix them together in a Seal-A-Meal pouch. Boil the bag for about 10 minutes to kill off any potential mite eggs. 
Experiment with that for a springtail food.

*Feeding your frogs*
For small feeding, grab a piece of charcoal out of your culture and tap it into your viv. Be careful not to touch the viv with the charcoal as most vivs eventually get mites of some type. You don’t want to contaminate your culture when you throw the charcoal back in!
For large feedings, completely fill the culture container with purified water. Take a spoon and gently stir or jostle the charcoal a little. You should see hundreds or thousands of springtails floating. Pour the water and springtails out into a pitcher or other feeding container. Feed your frogs with it. You may want to pour some back into your culture. If you remove too many springtails from it, it will take a while to recover.
Now this is easy if your tanks have automatic drains. If not, you will need another step. You can run your pitcher of water and springs through a small meshed sieve, or you can siphon the water out from under the springtails. Dump them into your vivs.

*Ventilation*
I choose NOT to ventilate most of my springtails. I open them often enough that I haven’t had any problems. If you do ventilate, it can become a possible spot for mites to get in. 
The big, black Tomocerus springtails are a different story. They are big, oxygen sucking machines!! I recently crashed my main culture (thank God for backups!). It was fine one day. I fed them and checked the next day…Every single bug was dead! I think between the little bit of Carbon Dioxide that the yeast produces, and the growing demand for oxygen from the bugs, they all died. Bummer.
Here’s my mite free solution. Actually, I want to thank Frogparty for this suggestion! I just ordered some of these .3 micron Synthetic Fiber Disks here. Fungi Perfecti: micron air filters I will cut a hole in the lid and silicone one of these in place. Once tested I anticipate putting them on all of my springtail and isopod culture containers.


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## Pumilo

*Variations for Huge Black Tomocerus Springtails*
I do NOT use any standing water in my Tomocerus cultures. This makes the charcoal dry out a bit more. This doesn’t bother me as I really like the pure charcoal cultures. To combat this I simply mist the container when I feed.
If that bothers you, I would recommend using a mix of half charcoal, and half coco husks. Exo Terra : Coco Husk (Brick) / Tropical Terrarium Substrate This will help keep the charcoal moist. Make sure to boil it to sterilize it.
The problem with the coco husk is that it becomes a hassle to flood your culture for feeding. Yes, the huge Tomocerus springtails float, just like their smaller cousins, but so does the coco husk!
Keep in mind that a booming Tomocerus culture is a HUNGRY FEEDING MACHINE! Feed them often! Keep in mind that the baby Tomocerus are as numerous as the baby whites, but much harder to see. Your culture may not look like it has many bugs in it, but they are hiding under the charcoal and it’s just harder to see a black bug on black charcoal. They will surprise you with how the seem to be barely chugging along, and then one day, those babies start growing…Be ready to split that culture up or feed heavily out of it. Once those babies grow, you will suddenly have WAY too much bug mass for that culture to support! Trust me! I’ve been there!
Little tip. A good way to check your Tomocerus culture is to gently blow into it. Your breath will make them scurry! Another tip is to pick up a piece of charcoal and tap it onto a white paper towel. Now you’re going to see some babies!!


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## Pumilo

frogparty said:


> nice write up. I prefer a completely edible substrate for my woodlice culture, and have been using pressure cooked madrone bark with excellent results. I only feed vegetable scraps, and dump left over dusting calcium and vitamins into my cultures as well, which they relish( something that had been posted here previously that I was skeptical of, until I tried it)


Thanks Frogparty, you suppose they would go for Repashy Superpig? Turn those Giant Oranges even brighter orange?!
Oh and hey, thanks for your micron filter suggestion. Hope you don't mind, I referred to it here. Don't worry though, gave you the credit!
I have never heard of Madrone Bark. Guess I'll have to look into that. I love the idea of a completely edible substrate!


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## frogparty

ive been so happy with the micron filter patches, I hope everyone uses them. 
Madrone is a broadleaf evergreen tree that grows here that has a peely bark, continually shed throughout the year, so it is easily and renewably collected. I have noticed many times over the years native woodlice beneath the peely bark, apparently feding on it, so I began using it for my woodlice cultures. I am still just using charcoal for springs.


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## varanoid

Hey where's my props for the pillow case idea?!!!! Just kidding! Great care sheets from one of the boards greatest contributers. I'll be hitting you up for some cultures soon, isopods and springs.


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## Pumilo

varanoid said:


> Hey where's my props for the pillow case idea?!!!! Just kidding! Great care sheets from one of the boards greatest contributers. I'll be hitting you up for some cultures soon, isopods and springs.


Sorry Varanoid, for the life of me I couldn't remember who had posted it. But thanks, it really is a great idea. I used to triple bag my charcoal and still ended up with black charcoal dust all over the floor! Only problem is...when I put my wife's pillow back in there she wasn't very happy! jk.


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## gary1218

Can I ask how you guys ship your bug cultures?

I have gotten shipped to me a number of cultures over the years and they've always arrived alive. And for the most part they've just been shipped in a cardboard box. Nothing fancy to protect the bugs on the inside.

But when I ship my springtail cultures it seems to be hit or miss as to whether or not they arrive alive. It seems like it's just a matter of luck as to what kind of the weather they might encounter along the way.

Do you guys pretty much just ship when the weather is ideal?

THANKS.


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## Colleen53

Great thread, Pumilo!! You really take your time and explain in detail. I also want to try to culture Isopods. What dart frogs enjoy them? Thanks for all your info!!!


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## frogparty

gary1218 said:


> Can I ask how you guys ship your bug cultures?
> 
> I have gotten shipped to me a number of cultures over the years and they've always arrived alive. And for the most part they've just been shipped in a cardboard box. Nothing fancy to protect the bugs on the inside.
> 
> But when I ship my springtail cultures it seems to be hit or miss as to whether or not they arrive alive. It seems like it's just a matter of luck as to what kind of the weather they might encounter along the way.
> 
> Do you guys pretty much just ship when the weather is ideal?
> 
> THANKS.


I left my big master culture of springs out on my back porch all winter, in temps freezing and below, and they survived just fine, so Im pretty sure they can take some serious punishment


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## Pumilo

Honestly it's my first time shipping bugs. I have shipped hundreds of live coral shipments, though. I have read way too many posts about dwarf whites arriving dead, so I'm more worried about those than the springtails. I put a sample culture with a dozen whites of varying sizes in the refrigerator overnight and every one was dead. I also put up a post asking about how others shipped their bugs but didn't get a lot of action on it. 
In the end, I drew upon remembering how bugs were packed for me in inclement weather, my research on shipping frogs, and my coral shipping experience.
They will be packed in small boxes with homemade styrofoam liners. Basically sheets of styrofoam, cut to fit. Each box will have a phase 2 gel pack in it. I think with the weather being, well, not at it's worst, they should do fine with one phase 22 gel pack. It doesn't raise the price too much as you can get phase 22 gel packs from Alpha Pro Breeders for about $3 each after shipping is figured in. For frogs, and/or rougher weather, more insulation and/or phase 22 packs would probably be in order, but for the bugs, in fairly mild weather, I anticipate complete success. I'll let you know how it goes.


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## Pumilo

Colleen53 said:


> Great thread, Pumilo!! You really take your time and explain in detail. I also want to try to culture Isopods. What dart frogs enjoy them? Thanks for all your info!!!


They all enjoy them Colleen. I feed mine (even the giant Oranges) to my thumbnails and pumilios. They ignore the adults and eat the babies. This lets the adults establish a breeding population in the viv.


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## JimO

One quick question about the dwarf white isos. About how many should I put in each starter culture when I split up the culture I have now?


Pumilo said:


> You're welcome guys! Ready for part 2?


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## Pumilo

JimO said:


> One quick question about the dwarf white isos. About how many should I put in each starter culture when I split up the culture I have now?


The more you start with, the faster you'll have a large, producing colony. I generally start mine with about 25. In some test runs starting with 50, it has definitely made a difference. 
In Markbudde's thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/46452-how-i-culture-woodlice-isopods.html he states that he started his example culture with only 4 adults!


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## gary1218

Pumilo said:


> Honestly it's my first time shipping bugs. I have shipped hundreds of live coral shipments, though. I have read way too many posts about dwarf whites arriving dead, so I'm more worried about those than the springtails. I put a sample culture with a dozen whites of varying sizes in the refrigerator overnight and every one was dead. I also put up a post asking about how others shipped their bugs but didn't get a lot of action on it.
> In the end, I drew upon remembering how bugs were packed for me in inclement weather, my research on shipping frogs, and my coral shipping experience.
> They will be packed in small boxes with homemade styrofoam liners. Basically sheets of styrofoam, cut to fit. Each box will have a phase 2 gel pack in it. I think with the weather being, well, not at it's worst, they should do fine with one phase 22 gel pack. It doesn't raise the price too much as you can get phase 22 gel packs from Alpha Pro Breeders for about $3 each after shipping is figured in. For frogs, and/or rougher weather, more insulation and/or phase 22 packs would probably be in order, but for the bugs, in fairly mild weather, I anticipate complete success. I'll let you know how it goes.


Thanks Doug.

Also sent you a PM.


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## Pumilo

gary1218 said:


> Thanks Doug.
> 
> Also sent you a PM.


System glitch?? I did not receive a PM from you Gary.


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## Golden State Mantellas

Can't wait to receive my isos and springs Doug, i'll let you know how the isos arrive.


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## azrickster

Double, double, toil and trouble
Fire burn and cauldron bubble
Double, double, toil and trouble
My whole apartment smells like a campfire!​
Boiling the charcoal really does stink and how the heck do you get all the charcoal dust off or don't you? I used a pillow case to break the pieces apart then ran it under the sink for like an hour - no way is the water ever going to be clear - does it matter?


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## Pumilo

Some people rinse it. I don't bother to.


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## frogparty

Ive never worried about it. I just poke a few holes in the ag of horticultural charcoal, and run warm water through the bag a few times. the stuf at the op is least dusty, and I ust do a rinse every time I need charcoal out of the bag


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## Pumilo

Were you running the whole pillowcase in water? Or just the chunks you are using? I do pull the pieces out in double handfuls and throw the dust and tiny chips out.


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## freaky_tah

I just got my dwarf whites in the mail today, and every one I could see was crawling around and seemed just fine! Thanks again!


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## Pumilo

Glad to hear it! That's my second report, both came in good. There have been too many reports of Dwarf Whites coming in dead in the past. Hopefully this, and these links will help that for anyone shipping bugs in the future.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66880-testing-testing.html


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## frogmanchu

doug got the isos thanks a bunch homie


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## Pumilo

frogmanchu said:


> doug got the isos thanks a bunch homie


Excellent! So the phase 22's kept everybody wrigglin and squirmin?


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## frogmanchu

yes indeed it did, where did you get those and what do orange iso babies look like first born





Pumilo said:


> Excellent! So the phase 22's kept everybody wrigglin and squirmin?


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## Pumilo

frogmanchu said:


> yes indeed it did, where did you get those and what do orange iso babies look like first born


Good deal. Website for Phase 22's are on the pack but the have a 1 case minimum order. You can get them individually from good ol' Ron at Alpha Pro Breeders. He's charging $2.49 each currently.
Baby oranges have no color. They pretty much look like baby Dwarf Whites on coke! (because they move around so much more)

Side note on oranges. I am recently hearing back from so many Dendroboarders that they love their oranges. They are almost pets unto themselves. Gives another little bit of action to your vivs that other feeders do not give.


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## azrickster

Pumilo said:


> Were you running the whole pillowcase in water? Or just the chunks you are using? I do pull the pieces out in double handfuls and throw the dust and tiny chips out.


Yeah, I rinsed the whole pillow case, guess I need to separate the small stuff out before rinsing. Is it ok to rinse with regular tap water since I am boiling in ro/di water? 

Tapatalk'd from my EVO


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## frogmanchu

cool i thought i had springtails in the first culture of them, even though i do have the grey springs in there lol, came like that be it was great for me so now i know what to look for.


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## Pumilo

azrickster said:


> Yeah, I rinsed the whole pillow case, guess I need to separate the small stuff out before rinsing. Is it ok to rinse with regular tap water since I am boiling in ro/di water?
> 
> Tapatalk'd from my EVO


Actually, rinsing and boiling is *probably* ok in regular tap water. Especially if you use a splash of dechlor in the final rinse. The amounts of chlorine/chloromine are probably quite minimal. I've just always used purified as a precaution.


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## mikefromearth

Pumilo said:


> Actually, rinsing and boiling is *probably* ok in regular tap water. Especially if you use a splash of dechlor in the final rinse. The amounts of chlorine/chloromine are probably quite minimal. I've just always used purified as a precaution.


Honestly with the minimal amount of chlorine found in tap water, it would probably evaporate very quickly after rinsing. I seriously doubt any harmful effects would arise from rinsing in tap water. If you want to be safe, fill a pot with tap water and let it sit overnight. Most of the chlorine will be gone by morning.


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## Pumilo

mikefromearth said:


> Honestly with the minimal amount of chlorine found in tap water, it would probably evaporate very quickly after rinsing. I seriously doubt any harmful effects would arise from rinsing in tap water. If you want to be safe, fill a pot with tap water and let it sit overnight. Most of the chlorine will be gone by morning.


It's more the chloromines that could pose a problem. Chloromines are used by some cities and they do NOT evaporate overnight. Only a chlorine/cholormine treatment, available from any fish store, will neutralize them. I think the amount would be so small it would not pose a problem, but I'm still going to use purified or a neutralizer myself.


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## azrickster

Bugs just arrived! Postman always comes to my apartments late. Been on the truck all day starting at about 70deg this morning to 98deg right now (well out on my balcony, probably closer to 90). Bugs are in great shape, very much alive. Great plant cuttings too.

Thanks Doug!

Tapatalk'd from my EVO


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## Golden State Mantellas

Bugs arrived today, wonderfully packaged, all appear to be living, Cryopak in solid state.

Thanks Doug!


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## stu&shaz

Doug ,what an awsome thread,THANKYOU for taking the time to put so much detail and the pics into this,I could have clicked the thankyou button a dozen times,but wanted to say,thankyou in person as it were. I know you have helped us greatly in the past with these things but this thread has kind of brought it all together for us,VERY greatful mate as I am sure many others will be for a long time to come
absolutly top draw mate,read from tip to toe
best always mate
Stu


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## RentaPig311

For those of you using the jar method for iso's, has anyone had any problems from using the pink or blue eco bedding? My local stores don't carry the regular brown. I figure it says eco friendly and is safe for birds so couldn't be that bad.


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## Pumilo

stu&shaz said:


> Doug ,what an awsome thread,THANKYOU for taking the time to put so much detail and the pics into this,I could have clicked the thankyou button a dozen times,but wanted to say,thankyou in person as it were. I know you have helped us greatly in the past with these things but this thread has kind of brought it all together for us,VERY greatful mate as I am sure many others will be for a long time to come
> absolutly top draw mate,read from tip to toe
> best always mate
> Stu


Thanks Stu, and you're welcome.



RentaPig311 said:


> For those of you using the jar method for iso's, has anyone had any problems from using the pink or blue eco bedding? My local stores don't carry the regular brown. I figure it says eco friendly and is safe for birds so couldn't be that bad.


I think it's a different product. Isn't the pink and the blue more like little clumps? Fairly tightly wadded? The brown stuff is super light and fluffy. It looks like the inside of corrugated cardboard, so just the corrugated part, cut into thin strips. I bought some of the wadded stuff at first, but I didn't think it would work the same so I did not try it.


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## frogparty

I would stay away from anything dyed.


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## Golden State Mantellas

I had a bunch of unbleached butcher paper, leftover from a project, looks just like cardboard. I put it in the shredder and I am using that.

I'm pretty sure you could use unprinted unbleached cardboard that is either hand shredded or put through a shredder.


----------



## RentaPig311

It's the same brand and product as the bedding used in the other thread with the jars, just colored. It looks like the cardboard strips.


----------



## Pumilo

RentaPig311 said:


> It's the same brand and product as the bedding used in the other thread with the jars, just colored. It looks like the cardboard strips.


OK, haven't seen that one. Still, I would be concerned about anything dyed or even bleached.


----------



## frogparty

The only thing I don't like about Mark Budde's method is that its damn near impossible to get them out of that shredded stuff. Great low tech method for making cultures for seeding vivs, but if you like to feed them out randomly like I do, its kind of a pain in the ass


----------



## azrickster

frogparty said:


> The only thing I don't like about Mark Budde's method is that its damn near impossible to get them out of that shredded stuff. Great low tech method for making cultures for seeding vivs, but if you like to feed them out randomly like I do, its kind of a pain in the ass


I was also thinking about Mark Budde's method, but Pumilo talked me out of it, so I'm using his ABG method but without leaves as those are hard to come by here in AZ. Has anyone tried using the Mark Budde method but instead of a jar, use the plastic tubs as in Pumilo's method - maybe they would be easier to get out that way.


----------



## Pumilo

Mark Budde has a great method for extreme minimal effort put into it. But yes, you pretty much have to wait to harvest until it is completely decomposed into dirt.


----------



## Pumilo

azrickster said:


> I was also thinking about Mark Budde's method, but Pumilo talked me out of it, so I'm using his ABG method but without leaves as those are hard to come by here in AZ. Has anyone tried using the Mark Budde method but instead of a jar, use the plastic tubs as in Pumilo's method - maybe they would be easier to get out that way.


To do it on a bigger scale like that would take many months before you could easily harvest. It would still be a real pain to try and pull out individuals before decomp was complete.


----------



## gary1218

With Mark's method is there any reason you can't just use shredded cardboard? I think most of us have access to cardboard and a shredder. And most of us are using pieces of cardboard on top of our bug cultures already. Is there something "special" about the product Mark is using?


----------



## jeeperrs

Thanks for the dwarfs and oranges. They were both healthy and alive. I am now seeding my 90 gallon with half the adult oranges. I hope they take off and keep a nice variety of food in the tank 

Thanks again!


----------



## Pumilo

gary1218 said:


> With Mark's method is there any reason you can't just use shredded cardboard? I think most of us have access to cardboard and a shredder. And most of us are using pieces of cardboard on top of our bug cultures already. Is there something "special" about the product Mark is using?


Hey Gary, a quote from Mark Budde straight out of his thread. _ "I tried using cardboard as substrate but they were much less productive on the cardboard."_
I don't know if he tried it shredded or not.


----------



## Golden State Mantellas

I have set up 3 cultures from the 50 dwarf whites I received. 1 in a 4 quart sterilite tub with ABG with crushed ficus leaves and a sheet of cardboard on top (20 dwarf white isos), 1 jar with unprinted cardboard I put through the shredder (15 dwarf white isos), and 1 jar with unbleached butcher paper I put through the shredder (15 dwarf white isos). Food I am using is Old Roy Adult Dog Food and the cardboard of course.

The only difference between the two jar cultures is one is just paper, the other is corrugated cardboard and has a greater surface area.

I am inclined to believe the ABG with crushed leaves is the most producted method though, as I have been culturing grey isopods collected here in So Cal for about 2 months and the culture is absolutely booming with grey isos and springtails. I started with 10 grey isos and a few dozen springtails, all field collected.


----------



## Colleen53

"I started with 10 grey isos" From Golden State Mantella

Are these the gray rolly pollies as we called them as a little child?


----------



## Golden State Mantellas

No, I do have _Armadillidium vulgare_, or roly polys as well, in a separate culture, my beardies love these.

By grey isopods I mean _Porcellio scaber_, which differ slightly in appearance from _A. vulgare_. Aside from the fact that _P. scaber_ does not roll into a ball, it is also slightly more flat and has a set of pleopods at the back end, essentially an extra pair of legs used for breathing, whereas _A. vulgare_ does not have visible pleopods.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, back to Pumilo, thanks for providing this care sheet/thread.


----------



## Pumilo

Golden State Mantellas said:


> No, I do have _Armadillidium vulgare_, or roly polys as well, in a separate culture, my beardies love these.
> 
> By grey isopods I mean _Porcellio scaber_, which differ slightly in appearance from _A. vulgare_. Aside from the fact that _P. scaber_ does not roll into a ball, it is also slightly more flat and has a set of pleopods at the back end, essentially an extra pair of legs used for breathing, whereas _A. vulgare_ does not have visible pleopods.
> 
> Sorry for hijacking this thread, back to Pumilo, thanks for providing this care sheet/thread.


That's not a hijack in my book. That's just adding some good, buggy, information! Porcellio is a good useful species for frogs. "Roly Polys" have something like a 15 or 18 month cycle which means they will culture very slowly. Plus the shells are probably a little to hard for your froggies. I might like to try a get a culture of your Porcellio scabers when they are ready.


----------



## Colleen53

Thank you for the clarification. So much insect I.D. to learn!!


----------



## Pumilo

frogparty said:


> nice write up. I prefer a completely edible substrate for my woodlice culture, and have been using pressure cooked madrone bark with excellent results. I only feed vegetable scraps, and dump left over dusting calcium and vitamins into my cultures as well, which they relish( something that had been posted here previously that I was skeptical of, until I tried it)


Hey Frogparty, I took all my dated Repashy suppliments: Calcium Plus ICB, SuperVit, and SuperPig, and I mixed them all together. In experimenting with it, you are so right! The Isopods really relish it! Especially the Dwarf Whites. I would but it in the top 3 best liked by the bugs along with Freeze dried Cyclop-Eeze, Super high quality fish flake, and now, your leftover, dated Repashy products!
I'm wondering about vitamin poisoning. Could too much of a good thing possibly harm them? I may take a small sample colony and feed them nothing but the vitamins just to see if it could be harmful in large amounts.


----------



## frogparty

i just dump a bit in at a time, the stuff left over in my dusting cup when the flies are gone. Don't know about poisoning from too many vitamins. Ed is the person to ask about that. Im sure its like anything else, too much could be bad, but the way I do it, I don't think its an issue. Feeding nothing BUT vitamins might not be the bes idea. Better to just add it in as a bonus I think
I started feeding the isos and springs ocean nutrition spirulina flakes this week, because the package had expired. The woodlice gave me a lukewarm reaction, but the springtails DEMOLISH those flakes. Good times.
Of course, since my woodlice are currently main short work of some avocado peels in addition to their bark, its hard to judge a feeding response. Id be interested to see how they react in a non edible substrate


----------



## Pumilo

Try the Ocean Nutrition Formula One. They go absolutely skitzo over it! Oddly enough, my isos care very little for avacado skins.


----------



## frogparty

I personally hate avocado(its a texture thing) but my gf got one and there was still meat and oily residue on the skin when she was done, thats what I think they are liking, not the actual skin itself. The fats and oils are probably pretty good for them


----------



## RNKot

Thanks for great info & summarizing!


----------



## Reef_Haven

Pumilo said:


> Porcellio is a good useful species for frogs. "Roly Polys" have something like a 15 or 18 month cycle which means they will culture very slowly.


How long is the life cycle for dwarf whites, greys, and oranges?


----------



## frogparty

not exactly sure. Its much faster, but not fast enough to make them a suitable cultured food to replace fruit flies. I think its about 30 days, plus or minus. Warmer temps seem to speed up the process.


----------



## Pumilo

Reef_Haven said:


> How long is the life cycle for dwarf whites, greys, and oranges?





frogparty said:


> not exactly sure. Its much faster, but not fast enough to make them a suitable cultured food to replace fruit flies. I think its about 30 days, plus or minus. Warmer temps seem to speed up the process.


That's about what I would guess. 1 to 2 months. More for the oranges. Maybe 3 to 4 months. Afraid I've never tracked the growth rates. I just set them up and grow them so this is just a guess based on observance.


----------



## JimO

It seems to me that the calcium supplements in particular would be good for both the isopods and the frogs that eat them. I'm not any kind of expert, but I would imagine that the isopods would metabolize some of the vitamins and some fat soluble vitamins would be stored in their tissue. It seems that both of these would be good for the frogs. I'm going to try that myself.


Pumilo said:


> Hey Frogparty, I took all my dated Repashy suppliments: Calcium Plus ICB, SuperVit, and SuperPig, and I mixed them all together. In experimenting with it, you are so right! The Isopods really relish it! Especially the Dwarf Whites. I would but it in the top 3 best liked by the bugs along with Freeze dried Cyclop-Eeze, Super high quality fish flake, and now, your leftover, dated Repashy products!
> I'm wondering about vitamin poisoning. Could too much of a good thing possibly harm them? I may take a small sample colony and feed them nothing but the vitamins just to see if it could be harmful in large amounts.


----------



## Ed

The assumption that they will uptake and store the fat soluble vitamins (or other vitamins) isn't totally supported in other inverts.. 

For example vitamin D3 is not used by inverts so it is not taken up or absorbed. As a further complication invertebrates do not tend to use vitamin A (retinyl palmitat, retinol) so again, it is passed without storage. Many invertebrates do take up vitamin E but this should be considered in light of attempting to balance feeders to prevent vitamin deficiencies. In normal ratios of A to D3 to E, the ratio should be 10 to 1 to 0.1 so increases in E content of the invertebrate can have a big effect on the above ratio as each increase in E requires a ten fold increase in A. Given that we are seeing frequent cases of insufficient vitamin A in captive anurans, modifications of fat soluble vitamins via gut loading needs to be considered with caution... 

Ed


----------



## JimO

Great write up. Thanks for taking the time to do this. I have done some experimentation and discovered accidentally that pure sphagnum moss makes a good springtail substrate as well, in case someone can't get decent charcoal or doesn't like it for some reason. I discovered this when I transferred newly morphed mantella froglets into a large plastic bin and lined the entire thing with damp sphagnum moss. I kept the water level up about halfway, resulting in some small pools of water in the depressions between small mounds of moss. I dumped some white tropical springs to feed them and for six weeks I didn't have to add any more. I started adding baker's yeast and the springs kept up with the froglets' appetite. 

What I found odd is that it seemed that the baby springs stayed in large clusters on top of the little pools. I even tried placing leaves close by as a "ramp" becausing I thought they were just getting caught in the pools, but they seemed to thrive on the surface of the little pools. I've also noticed this in my globular blue springtail cultures. It seems that both species like wet environments. To support this, I have found that when I feed out some springs, the culture doesn't do as well if I don't replace the water I pour out with the springs.

After observing all this, I tried some cultures using the same technique and they are booming. I use only sphagnum moss and I leave the upper 1 inch or so of the moss above the water line.

Also, I usually suggest that folks make up more smaller cultures rather than just a couple of large ones. I lost two big cultures to mites, and was nearly out of springs at a time when I had newly morphed pumilio froglets to feed, so now I use smaller ziplock containers, but I keep a dozen or so going at the same time.



Pumilo said:


> Put your charcoal in a heavy bag, or better yet, an old pillowcase. I have also just wrapped some in a towel. Whack it with a hammer! You will want a variety of sizes but anything over about 1.5 or 2 inches is going to start cutting down on surface area, or living space for your bugs. There will be lots of smaller pieces too. It’s all good and usable.
> Drop it in a pot with some purified water and boil it for 5 or 10 minutes. Boil it longer if you need to use it right away. This kills off any possible bugs and molds and also helps it to soak up water. Now I like to let it soak overnight to really suck up that moisture. Fill your plastic shoebox with some wet charcoal. You are only going to go about half full for now. Add a bit of purified water, maybe a quarter inch or so in the bottom. Make a hole in the charcoal with your hands, big enough to set your culture of springtails into. Pop off the top. If you’re with me so far, it should look like this.


----------



## JimO

Thanks for the clarification Ed. I certainly don't want to steer anyone in the wrong direction via my own speculation. What about using the calcium powder?


Ed said:


> The assumption that they will uptake and store the fat soluble vitamins (or other vitamins) isn't totally supported in other inverts..
> 
> For example vitamin D3 is not used by inverts so it is not taken up or absorbed. As a further complication invertebrates do not tend to use vitamin A (retinyl palmitat, retinol) so again, it is passed without storage. Many invertebrates do take up vitamin E but this should be considered in light of attempting to balance feeders to prevent vitamin deficiencies. In normal ratios of A to D3 to E, the ratio should be 10 to 1 to 0.1 so increases in E content of the invertebrate can have a big effect on the above ratio as each increase in E requires a ten fold increase in A. Given that we are seeing frequent cases of insufficient vitamin A in captive anurans, modifications of fat soluble vitamins via gut loading needs to be considered with caution...
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

springtails at one time were considered pests in fresh water aquariums as they would form "unsightly" groups on the surface (you need to go back to pre-1950 aquarium books to find them). In these situations, the springtails are feeding on the organic materials in the surface film. 
This is an microniche in which many springtails do well. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

JimO said:


> Thanks for the clarification Ed. I certainly don't want to steer anyone in the wrong direction via my own speculation. What about using the calcium powder?


Calcium powder or powder with only D3 is fine. 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

Do you think the availability of extra calcium in this case would promote the development of a thcker, less digestable exoskeleton?


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> Do you think the availability of extra calcium in this case would promote the development of a thcker, less digestable exoskeleton?


Unlikely... calcium is a limiting nutrient as they already have a high requirement for formation of the cuticle. 

Chitin is actually much more digestiable than what was once estimated. Depending on the paper you check, it can be as much as 7 times more digestible as the amount of protein was previously underestimated. 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Good info Ed, thanks for jumping in.


----------



## radiata

Anyone here read Dutch? This is (apparently) an article about raising springtails on a plaster substrate...
Inheemse springstaarten kweken (gips methode) > Gifkikkerportaal > Soorten


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## Ed

I'm pretty sure that method was discussed on here... ah here it is see 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/13251-cuttlebone-springtails.html 

Ed


----------



## davecalk

Hey Doug, Great Thread.

What about experimenting with adding some of your clay soil mix which would add calcium and create crawl spaces and voids which would also create more surface area for the isopods?

You did a great tutorial on clay soil back in February.

Doug's Clay Soil How To...


----------



## Pumilo

davecalk said:


> Hey Doug, Great Thread.
> 
> What about experimenting with adding some of your clay soil mix which would add calcium and create crawl spaces and voids which would also create more surface area for the isopods?
> 
> You did a great tutorial on clay soil back in February.
> 
> Doug's Clay Soil How To...


Thanks for the Kudos Dave. I have thought about culturing springtails and isopods on a clay substrate but haven't tried it yet. What stops me from trying is how to properly harvest off of a clay substrate culture. With springtails I think a piece of sterile tree fern panel would work well. Just lay about a 4" by 4" slab on top. The springtails would crawl on it and throughout it. You pull the block and just tap it off into your vivs. That's a tip I originally got from Michael at PoisonBeauties. Works great. 
Isopods, however, has got me stumped. You could still put a few pieces of cardboard on top and brush that off with a tiny paintbrush, but I usually want to harvest more than that at once. With a dozen vivs and counting, that's like trying to fill my bathtub with a thimble, using the kitchen sink!! I usually have to just scoop out a spoonful and sprinkle that in. That would tend to mush up and compact the clay over time. Water flood harvest (for springtails on charcoal) wouldn't work as the clay would get too wet and structure would collapse.
So it's the harvest that stops me from trying.


----------



## jckee1

Doug, 
I have only just started feeding and culturing springtails and was interested in trying the woodlice but was a little hesitant to try. After reading this thread I think I will.
Thanks
Jim


----------



## Pumilo

jckee1 said:


> Doug,
> I have only just started feeding and culturing springtails and was interested in trying the woodlice but was a little hesitant to try. After reading this thread I think I will.
> Thanks
> Jim


Good to hear, Jim. Anything we can do to improve our frog's nutrition has got to be a good thing. Isopods are really so simple! They just take longer. I love that by using edible substrates, they are really so carefree. If you forget to feed for a week, it's no biggie. Just have to keep them moist.


----------



## tim13

Hey Doug, would it not be beneficial to culture isopods on whatever substrate you use in your tanks, so when the culture is booming you can just dump it in and be done? Have a master culture and make smaller cultures on your substrate of choice whenever needed just add them in.


----------



## davecalk

Pumilo said:


> Thanks for the Kudos Dave. I have thought about culturing springtails and isopods on a clay substrate but haven't tried it yet. What stops me from trying is how to properly harvest off of a clay substrate culture. With springtails I think a piece of sterile tree fern panel would work well. Just lay about a 4" by 4" slab on top. The springtails would crawl on it and throughout it. You pull the block and just tap it off into your vivs. That's a tip I originally got from Michael at PoisonBeauties. Works great.
> Isopods, however, has got me stumped. You could still put a few pieces of cardboard on top and brush that off with a tiny paintbrush, but I usually want to harvest more than that at once. With a dozen vivs and counting, that's like trying to fill my bathtub with a thimble, using the kitchen sink!! I usually have to just scoop out a spoonful and sprinkle that in. That would tend to mush up and compact the clay over time. Water flood harvest (for springtails on charcoal) wouldn't work as the clay would get too wet and structure would collapse.
> So it's the harvest that stops me from trying.


Actually Doug I was thinking about mixing the two mediums. That way you would have have both elements within the culture. You would have some clay soil interspersed within the ABG mix. Hybridize the two mixes, either with a side by side, or an interspersed with bits of clay being surrounded by the ABG. Then you could harvest in your conventional way.


----------



## Frank H

Thank you very much Doug! I really appreciate the pictures to help us get the correct products. My Isopods will be thanking you too..


----------



## mainbutter

tim13 said:


> Hey Doug, would it not be beneficial to culture isopods on whatever substrate you use in your tanks, so when the culture is booming you can just dump it in and be done? Have a master culture and make smaller cultures on your substrate of choice whenever needed just add them in.


That's what I'm doing! Of course I use ABG substrate, so the only difference between the isopod cultures I got from Doug and the substrate in my vivs is that the isopods have a healthy helping of oak leaf litter mixed in and I'm trying out his suggestion of having a couple pieces of cardboard on top of the substrate.

I fully intend on trying to culturing springtails in ABG as well once I get some typical charcoal style cultures up and running, no reason that wouldn't work well either.


----------



## Pumilo

tim13 said:


> Hey Doug, would it not be beneficial to culture isopods on whatever substrate you use in your tanks, so when the culture is booming you can just dump it in and be done? Have a master culture and make smaller cultures on your substrate of choice whenever needed just add them in.


Sure Tim, good idea. 



davecalk said:


> Actually Doug I was thinking about mixing the two mediums. That way you would have have both elements within the culture. You would have some clay soil interspersed within the ABG mix. Hybridize the two mixes, either with a side by side, or an interspersed with bits of clay being surrounded by the ABG. Then you could harvest in your conventional way.


Let us know how it's working if you go that route Dave. Thanks!



Frank H said:


> Thank you very much Doug! I really appreciate the pictures to help us get the correct products. My Isopods will be thanking you too..


You're quite welcome Frank...I'll try not to freak out when a 6 foot tall, talking Isopod comes knocking on my door!


----------



## Colleen53

mainbutter said:


> That's what I'm doing! Of course I use ABG substrate, so the only difference between the isopod cultures I got from Doug and the substrate in my vivs is that the isopods have a healthy helping of oak leaf litter mixed in and I'm trying out his suggestion of having a couple pieces of cardboard on top of the substrate.
> 
> I fully intend on trying to culturing springtails in ABG as well once I get some typical charcoal style cultures up and running, no reason that wouldn't work well either.


I am trying this method as well. I have 7 nice size cultures of springtails in charcoal substrate only and just set-up a ABG container with springtails. I'll see how they take.


----------



## frograck

I've tried all sorts of substrates and foods for my dwarf white woodlice...
My favorite that gets great results:

Substrate: orchid bark/coco peat/ spagnum peat
*mix in oak leaves and put cardboard on top
*stir the substrate to airate and freshen it once per week

Food: quality flake fish food and CANTELOPE RINDS!!!!!

In my established cultures, a cantelope rind is gone in a week and since I've been feeding these, my cultures have been healthy and explosive! 

Stay away from cucumber peelings, they just caused mite problems.


----------



## Wallace Grover

Is it normal to not see the isopods when you put them in the culture sand one or two?


----------



## BugsInCyberspace.com

Isopods tend to be nocturnal, so they're likely to hide during the day, or when disturbed. I often sneak up on my various cultures at night with a flashlight and check in on their busy little world. Fun stuff!


----------



## Pumilo

Wallace Grover said:


> Is it normal to not see the isopods when you put them in the culture sand one or two?





BugsInCyberspace.com said:


> Isopods tend to be nocturnal, so they're likely to hide during the day, or when disturbed. I often sneak up on my various cultures at night with a flashlight and check in on their busy little world. Fun stuff!


Sometimes they have little "slumber parties" too! I'll be looking through a culture to see how it's doing, but only finding a couple / few. Then I'll find a little 1/2 piece of charcoal with 12 or 15 isopods all clinging to it.

The Grays/Striped are masters of disguise. First time I thought a small culture (about a 12 oz culture) could harvest one or two starters, I dumped it out and proceeded to gather 225 of the little buggers!! Three weeks later I pulled more than 100 from the same culture! I would guessed at around 100 being in there.


----------



## hypostatic

Hey I skipped right to the end after the first couple of pages so I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet:

When feeding springtails, I've noticed that most people are getting best results when feeding smaller particles of food -- active yeast, fish flakes, ground up dog food. What I've been doing with great success (so far) is taking oatmeal and putting it through a coffee grinder for a very fine powder, so I'd imagine that even flour might work to this extent. So any dry food lying around the household could be used as springtail food.

Also, I've read that what the springtails really eat is the mold growing on the food (yeast, mushrooms), so grinding up any food into a powder would also make mold proliferation easier because it increases the total surface area of whatever food is used


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> Hey I skipped right to the end after the first couple of pages so I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet:
> 
> When feeding springtails, I've noticed that most people are getting best results when feeding smaller particles of food -- active yeast, fish flakes, ground up dog food. What I've been doing with great success (so far) is taking oatmeal and putting it through a coffee grinder for a very fine powder, so I'd imagine that even flour might work to this extent. So any dry food lying around the household could be used as springtail food.
> 
> Also, I've read that what the springtails really eat is the mold growing on the food (yeast, mushrooms), so grinding up any food into a powder would also make mold proliferation easier because it increases the total surface area of whatever food is used


Springtail cultures are more susceptible to mites than about anything else. For that reason I prefer to use only Active Bakers Yeast for my springtails. Everything else you mentioned could possibly bring grain mites in.


----------



## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Also, I've read that what the springtails really eat is the mold growing on the food (yeast, mushrooms), so grinding up any food into a powder would also make mold proliferation easier because it increases the total surface area of whatever food is used


They also feed heavily on the bacterial films that form and any liquifaction of the food items. 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

yeah, I notice a definite preference for liquifying vegetable matter


----------



## hypostatic

Hmmmm, so would would putting a vegetable in the blender and turning into pulp also work well?


----------



## D3monic

Mine really like banana scuz left in feeding stations


----------



## frogparty

hypostatic said:


> Hmmmm, so would would putting a vegetable in the blender and turning into pulp also work well?


No, I think its the bacterial liquifaction they like


----------



## Atmus

Do they also eat dead plant matter, or just the liquifying stuff? This seems like it would be useful for the compost pile as well, but I wouldn't want them breeding millions and taking over the neighborhood.

Unless I could blame it on one of the other neighbors, anyway.


----------



## Ed

Atmus said:


> Do they also eat dead plant matter, or just the liquifying stuff? This seems like it would be useful for the compost pile as well, but I wouldn't want them breeding millions and taking over the neighborhood.
> 
> Unless I could blame it on one of the other neighbors, anyway.


I would be very surprised if they weren't already in your compost pile.


----------



## Pumilo

True enough, both springtails and Isopods are pretty common in compost piles. Along with a plethora of other bugs.


----------



## Atmus

Well that's cool. I don't suppose there would be a point to adding more to make it go faster, then.


----------



## Pumilo

Atmus said:


> Well that's cool. I don't suppose there would be a point to adding more to make it go faster, then.


No. Plus there are so many different sub species that all tolerate different conditions. You might dump them in only to have your higher or lower temperature kill them all overnight.


----------



## fishr

> Sometimes they have little "slumber parties" too!


LOL! The thought of inverts having a slumber party is a funny thing.


----------



## Zorloc

Please define your idea of " Ultra high quality dog "
Sorry if I missed it already
Did a search here and google and didnt realy come up with a specific dog food.


----------



## Pumilo

Zorloc said:


> Please define your idea of " Ultra high quality dog "
> Sorry if I missed it already
> Did a search here and google and didnt realy come up with a specific dog food.


A dog food with meat listed as the first ingredient AND at least two or three forms of meat in the first half dozen or so, ingredients. Alternatively, any dog food that comes highly recommended from a private dog trainer. (we're not talking about the PetsMart trainer!)
I choose Natural Balance Original Ultra. If you look at Petco, you may be able to find it in a 1 pound sample bag for $2.99
Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance® Original Ultra® Ultra Premium Dog Food

Chicken, Brown Rice, Lamb Meal, Oatmeal, Barley, Potatoes, Carrots, Chicken Fat (preserved with natural mixed tocopherols), Duck Meal, Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor, Canola Oil, Brewers Yeast, Duck, Salmon Meal, Sodium Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Salmon Oil, Whole Ground Flaxseed, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Natural Mixed Tocopherols, Spinach, Parsley Flakes, Cranberries, L-Lysine, L-Carnitine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Kelp, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Riboflavin (Vitamin B-2), Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Folic Acid


----------



## Ed

Aren't you concerned about tocopherol sequestering?


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Aren't you concerned about tocopherol sequestering?


I don't suppose you'd care to dumb that down for someone who know nothing about chemistry? I did google it but it's over my head. 
I simply chose this one as it appeared to be high quality and was available in a sample bag, plus, it is the same one pictured in that other popular isopod culturing thread.


----------



## Pumilo

Found something a bit more down to earth. http://www.hilarywatson.com/natural.pdf
The types used in pet foods are the following. Gamma tocopherol, Delta-tocopherol, and beta tocopherol. All other forms are classified as chemical and can't be used in a natural food. The forms I've listed are classified as a vitamin and have very little vitamin activity for a dog.
The article goes on to say that natural or artificial preservatives can have negative effects on an animals health but so can calcium, salt, vitamins and other essential nutrients.
These preservatives do have FDA "GRAS" status. GRAS stands for Generally recognized as safe. This is determined by independant labs.
So what do you think Ed? Should I be concerned?

Additionally, I have found myself using less dog food and more Flake Fish Food as they really seem to love it.


----------



## stu&shaz

Hey Doug,hope you and yours are well!!!,we only feed fish food now ,coupled witha childrens breakfast cereal which is fortified with vits,its called ready break (i pop it in the micro wave for a few seconds to zap any flour mites) over here.We are have great results on the iso but not so good yet with the springs ...i just need to get this one up to a higher level,I don't think i am splitting soon enough,no worries though we are not short. Doug have you come across feeding eggshells(best organic i would think) to your isos? a friend,over here, recently put me on to this,er they seem to love em! We keep some call ducks so have a supply ready.
Doug I have set up some of your edible cultures (great idea) only using rotton plum wood and a mix of oak,hazel and apple leaves,results look good so far but its very early days yet as a side shoot to this and with my liking for wild grub i went round our garden (organic 20plus yrs) catching every iso i could find,and placed them in above culture,my thinking is if i kept them on the frog room floor at the coolest place them they would multiply rapidly(lots were carrying young anyway) and i could harvest the offspring to feed to our darts. All good so far i now have a culture teaming with little white baby isos,in just a few weeksha and here's where i have come unstuck,lol how do i get them out,i am thinking maybe i could seive then with the right size mesh but they are so delicate,i tried getting some out manually but it takes ages. Typical me this one step short of a result LMAO. If i have missed this then apologies mate,i have pretty much scaled the whole thread looking.
Buddy if you or any other more knowledgable chaps than I, can see any problems with anything i have done above then please do not hestiate to point it out.
best always kiddo
Stu
PS still a great thread much gratitude here!!


----------



## Ed

Try cutting some small squares of cardboard and placing them in the culture in a little stack. The isopods will cling to the cardboard and feed on them to some extent but it makes it easy to harvest as you can use remove the adults manually and then tap the cardboard into a collection cup or container to feed the frogs. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> I don't suppose you'd care to dumb that down for someone who know nothing about chemistry? I did google it but it's over my head.
> I simply chose this one as it appeared to be high quality and was available in a sample bag, plus, it is the same one pictured in that other popular isopod culturing thread.


Many tocopherols are analogs of vitamin E. Vitamin E/tocopherols are utilized by a number of invertebrates (including isopods) and is selectively taken up and stored. The levels of tocopherols may easily be sufficient to disrupt the uptake of vitamin A and D3 in consuming frogs as they are out of the ratio of 10 to 1 to 0.1 of A: D3 : E.

Ed


----------



## gary1218

So, are we saying feeding dog foods to isopod cultures is a bad idea?


----------



## Ed

The honest answer is maybe... usually the isopods aren't dusted but that doesn't mean that high doses of vitamin E are a good thing when fed consistently. 
I put it out there for discussion. 

Ed


----------



## stu&shaz

Ed said:


> Try cutting some small squares of cardboard and placing them in the culture in a little stack. The isopods will cling to the cardboard and feed on them to some extent but it makes it easy to harvest as you can use remove the adults manually and then tap the cardboard into a collection cup or container to feed the frogs.
> 
> Ed


oh the joys of the net,2nd attempt
Thanks Ed i tried to make my post rushed off to impliment said stack,but although there are only 2 bits of card in there they are actually on top of each other,not a single iso betwixt,there is enough of a gap for them though.I have still implimented the stack will report back. I have observed this behaviour with my older Dwarf white cultures where i have added a new bit of card to replenish the part eaten. Still greatful for the idea though,as it will undoubtedly make harvest of numerous woodlice easier with the dwarf white,cuturesin the future as our undertaking progresses.Any other pearls of wisdom that might get me out of jail on this?
Many thanks again
Stu


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Just wanted to say I followed to the letter the Springtail culture directions. I opened the box today and the lump charcoal was swarming. It seems like there were millions of litle babies, and thousands of larger individuals. I lightly flooded the culture and poured some into all 3 of my vivariums. I'm sure my new cobalts will destroy them but I have an over abundance of FF right now so I'm feeding them strong for now.

MY Dwarf White Isos and Giant oranges I think are gonna need a while to produce but I followed this thread to the letter on making those cultures and feel like I will have good success. I'm feeding my isos Tetramin Pro Crisps - COLOR. I added 2-3 crisps and they disappeared in a couple days so I've added more.

This thread is/has been the most helpful thread by far of any I've yet read. Thanks again Doug and everyone else who has posted in it.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Many tocopherols are analogs of vitamin E. Vitamin E/tocopherols are utilized by a number of invertebrates (including isopods) and is selectively taken up and stored. The levels of tocopherols may easily be sufficient to disrupt the uptake of vitamin A and D3 in consuming frogs as they are out of the ratio of 10 to 1 to 0.1 of A: D3 : E.
> 
> Ed





gary1218 said:


> So, are we saying feeding dog foods to isopod cultures is a bad idea?





Ed said:


> The honest answer is maybe... usually the isopods aren't dusted but that doesn't mean that high doses of vitamin E are a good thing when fed consistently.
> I put it out there for discussion.
> 
> Ed


You just have to make life difficult for me, Ed! jk I have been looking into alternatives. Did you know that virtually EVERY decent flake fish food on the market has tocopherols? At least freeze dried Cyclop Eeze appears to be safe. Way too expensive for a stand alone feed for bugs, though. 
Walked through a couple pet shops reading fish food labels and dog food bags. What I found with dog food is that it either sucks or it has tocopherols! I found one brand that might be able to deliver. I have a request for more information in to Bil-Jac dog food. The have a puppy formula that is chicken based, high protein, and it does NOT list tocopherols. I will post the information they give me just as soon as I hear back.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Just wanted to say I followed to the letter the Springtail culture directions. I opened the box today and the lump charcoal was swarming. It seems like there were millions of litle babies, and thousands of larger individuals. I lightly flooded the culture and poured some into all 3 of my vivariums. I'm sure my new cobalts will destroy them but I have an over abundance of FF right now so I'm feeding them strong for now.
> 
> MY Dwarf White Isos and Giant oranges I think are gonna need a while to produce but I followed this thread to the letter on making those cultures and feel like I will have good success. I'm feeding my isos Tetramin Pro Crisps - COLOR. I added 2-3 crisps and they disappeared in a couple days so I've added more.
> 
> This thread is/has been the most helpful thread by far of any I've yet read. Thanks again Doug and everyone else who has posted in it.


High praise, Mr. Zookeeper. I thank you.


----------



## gary1218

I guess a question I would have would be if these tocopherals would mostly be a problem if the isos were the main diet for the frogs, which I don't see being the case. If the frogs are still getting a steady diet of dusted FFs is it less of an issue?

Or, better to be safe than sorry.

And, one last question, why is nothing ever easy


----------



## Pumilo

gary1218 said:


> I guess a question I would have would be if these tocopherals would mostly be a problem if the isos were the main diet for the frogs, which I don't see being the case. If the frogs are still getting a steady diet of dusted FFs is it less of an issue?
> 
> Or, better to be safe than sorry.
> 
> And, one last question, why is nothing ever easy


For some, like baby pums and some fresh morph thumbs, the baby isos and springtails may be the only food for a week or three. I would have to wonder if it could be an issue then. 
On the "better safe that sorry" theory, I'll see what I can find out on that alternative dog food.


----------



## gary1218

I'm a business manager at a veterinary clinic. We carry two different lines of dog food. I'll start reading labels when I get to work tomorrow


----------



## poison beauties

Why not an all natural feed for them?


----------



## Ed

Tocopherols can be from a natural source which means that doesn't rule them out as a preservative (they function as an antioxident). For example tocopherols can be extracted from sunflower oil. 

This is why I wanted a discussion on it.. In addition to competing for uptake if ingested at the same time as other fat soluble vitamins (A and D3), vitamin E is stored in the liver. Techinically the isopods would be acting as a heavily fortified food (I also commented on this with respect to fruit fly media in the Repashy Thread). In the wild the isopods would aquire it via consumption of plant materials and not handed to them in a much denser nutrient packet. 

Excess vitamin E can result in bleeding disorders if over supplemented. The isopods need some level of vitamin E for various reasons (and one of the reasons they accumulate high levels of it). Normally toxicity of E is uncommon but can occur from fortified foods. It could just mean that dog or fish food as a solid diet could be a concern. Technically this could also occur from excess supplements cleaned up in enclosures (but this may also be more dispersed due to springtails etc). Personally I'm don't think I'm concerned about isopods that are seeded into the enclosures but if people are culturing them as part of the routine diet for the frogs.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> You just have to make life difficult for me, Ed! jk I have been looking into alternatives. Did you know that virtually EVERY decent flake fish food on the market has tocopherols? At least freeze dried Cyclop Eeze appears to be safe. Way too expensive for a stand alone feed for bugs, though.
> Walked through a couple pet shops reading fish food labels and dog food bags. What I found with dog food is that it either sucks or it has tocopherols! I found one brand that might be able to deliver. I have a request for more information in to Bil-Jac dog food. The have a puppy formula that is chicken based, high protein, and it does NOT list tocopherols. I will post the information they give me just as soon as I hear back.


I'm sure you wondered why I wanted a discussion on it.. This is information that came to light during my evaluation of fruit fly media and of course I had to expand to see if it was wide spread in invertebrates.. and the answer was yes, so the comment on the dog food triggered the connections in my brain. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

poison beauties said:


> Why not an all natural feed for them?


Hey Michael, I know you use all natural feeds and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. What we are going for with a balanced dog food and/or fish food is simply a single food that can meet all their requirements. Many people are missing out on a few basic things that can maximize breeding and growth rates. i.e. Calcium, vitamins, and protein. 
Now I know you have your own simple solution to calcium. I'm not going to spill the beans, as I don't know if it is a "trade secret" or not. If it isn't, please, feel free to share any of your methods here. It can only add to thread. Protein, on the other hand, can be messy and smelly to try to add. Dog food or fish food would simply take care of all of that with one easy feeding. Also, I would imagine that the processing involved in manufacturing dog food would kill mite eggs. Granted, that is an assumption and if someone knows different, please let us know.


----------



## Ed

If you have dried dog food you have grain mites.. 

Have you considered dried krill? It is relatively inexpensive, high in calcium and protien... 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties

Hey Doug I do try and keep to an organic all natural media/feed but that said I havent had soft shell issues in isos that is a sign of calcium deficiency, I havent had slow growth or anything that resulted in my cultures not producing. 

That said my media is calcium based and I keep to a fruit/vegetable/mushroom blend that I feed with. I do respect the want for a better feed and if you work into one that is not only easy but shows better results you can bet I will give it a try. I will also help you out if you need it.

Michael


----------



## Ed

I'm going to ask an off the wall question here.. if someone has a ton of grey isopods would they mind taking a sample and boiling them? I stocked some enclosures so I'm low at the moment. If they turn a different color that indicates that they are using a carotenoid bound with a protein. If it is pink, red or orange after heating, it is probably astaxanthin like you see in shrimp or lobsters. (that is why they turn red when heated, the astaxanthin in the shell is broken free of the protein). 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> If you have dried dog food you have grain mites..
> 
> Have you considered dried krill? It is relatively inexpensive, high in calcium and protien...
> 
> Ed


I set up a dozen of the mason jar cultures some time ago. They were fed almost exclusively, the Natural Balance dog food I mentioned. Four or five of them did get mites. One pretty badly. The others came out clean, though. I figured the dog food must be safe as some came out clean. I attributed the mites to not having properly filtered vent holes and no mite paper. I guess I should reconsider that. I have not tried krill, Ed.
Let me ask you this. If you were to microwave some dog food, that should eliminate the mite eggs, right? How long do you think would be necessary for, say, half a cup? How damaging would this be to the nutrients?



poison beauties said:


> Hey Doug I do try and keep to an organic all natural media/feed but that said I havent had soft shell issues in isos that is a sign of calcium deficiency, I havent had slow growth or anything that resulted in my cultures not producing.
> 
> That said my media is calcium based and I keep to a fruit/vegetable/mushroom blend that I feed with. I do respect the want for a better feed and if you work into one that is not only easy but shows better results you can bet I will give it a try. I will also help you out if you need it.
> 
> Michael


Thanks Michael, part of the quest here, is also for simplicity and cost. I know you have developed your system that produces great...but I don't have a greenhouse for cheap, organic fruits and veggies! We pay an arm and a leg for organic veggies here in Denver. Still, I do have my wife put aside scraps of whatever fresh fruits and veggies we do have come through the kitchen. My bugs get to munch on that, too. A few things we find that they really like are yellow squash, leftover halloween pumpkin, and watermelon rind.



Ed said:


> I'm going to ask an off the wall question here.. if someone has a ton of grey isopods would they mind taking a sample and boiling them? I stocked some enclosures so I'm low at the moment. If they turn a different color that indicates that they are using a carotenoid bound with a protein. If it is pink, red or orange after heating, it is probably astaxanthin like you see in shrimp or lobsters. (that is why they turn red when heated, the astaxanthin in the shell is broken free of the protein).
> 
> Ed


Just looking for a small sample to be boiled? Like 10 or 12? I can do this, but I don't get quite what it will mean. Would it tell you that we should be using more astaxanthin in their diets? Or that they can utilize proteins better with more astaxanthin?


----------



## gary1218

Had some time this morning so I looked online at some of the Royal Canin diets we carry at our vet clinic. This puppy food that we sell does not have tocopherols in it - http://www.royalcanin.us/adx/aspx/a...nine+DIGEST+&+OSTEO+DO™+LARGE+BREED+PUPPY.pdf


----------



## gary1218

gary1218 said:


> Had some time this morning so I looked online at some of the Royal Canin diets we carry at our vet clinic. This puppy food that we sell does not have tocopherols in it - http://www.royalcanin.us/adx/aspx/a...nine+DIGEST+&+OSTEO+DO™+LARGE+BREED+PUPPY.pdf


Cancel that. It is in their


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Let me ask you this. If you were to microwave some dog food, that should eliminate the mite eggs, right? How long do you think would be necessary for, say, half a cup? How damaging would this be to the nutrients?


If you microwave what you are going to use it will be fine for the short term. The heat does destroy some of the vitamins and can increase oxidation of the some of the fats once it cools. 




Pumilo said:


> Just looking for a small sample to be boiled? Like 10 or 12? I can do this, but I don't get quite what it will mean. Would it tell you that we should be using more astaxanthin in their diets? Or that they can utilize proteins better with more astaxanthin?


 
No, I'm looking for the presence of astaxanthin. If you heat them and there is a change in pigmentation, then that can signal that they are using protein bound carotenoids. If you have any that you've fed fish food to, that would be a better test than ones just fed dog food as dog food lacks astaxanthin. 

Lets be clear on this though, I'm not sure that feeding the isopods tocopherols as a routine part of the isopods' diet is bad unless you are then feeding those isopods routinely to the frogs as opposed to the rish with the fruit flies. 
There is a much greater risk if the people are adding old supplements to thier fruit fly media, as the flies can accumulate more than several thousand fold the level of vitamin E in thier food source. 

Ed


----------



## fishr

Ed said:


> If you have dried dog food you have grain mites..
> 
> Have you considered dried krill? It is relatively inexpensive, high in calcium and protien...
> 
> Ed


Funny, this came up. I added dry krill to my iso cultures. The greys are loving it! The whites seem unsure.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> If you microwave what you are going to use it will be fine for the short term. The heat does destroy some of the vitamins and can increase oxidation of the some of the fats once it cools.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I'm looking for the presence of astaxanthin. If you heat them and there is a change in pigmentation, then that can signal that they are using protein bound carotenoids. If you have any that you've fed fish food to, that would be a better test than ones just fed dog food as dog food lacks astaxanthin.
> 
> Lets be clear on this though, I'm not sure that feeding the isopods tocopherols as a routine part of the isopods' diet is bad unless you are then feeding those isopods routinely to the frogs as opposed to the rish with the fruit flies.
> There is a much greater risk if the people are adding old supplements to thier fruit fly media, as the flies can accumulate more than several thousand fold the level of vitamin E in thier food source.
> 
> Ed


Oh yeah. We've talked about oxidation of fats in the nukrawave before.
Experiment coming.


----------



## frogboy

Ed said:


> I'm going to ask an off the wall question here.. if someone has a ton of grey isopods would they mind taking a sample and boiling them? I stocked some enclosures so I'm low at the moment. If they turn a different color that indicates that they are using a carotenoid bound with a protein. If it is pink, red or orange after heating, it is probably astaxanthin like you see in shrimp or lobsters. (that is why they turn red when heated, the astaxanthin in the shell is broken free of the protein).
> 
> Ed


Ed, I've done your experiment and even tried some whites for you. First we used bugs that have been on Ocean Nutrition Formula One and Two for a couple months, with no dogfood. They've gotten some Cyclope-Eeze too, but not for a couple weeks. Each set of bugs was boiled for several minutes. As you can see from the pics, there's really no color change. I hope this answers your questions.


----------



## frogboy

Ed, we didn't want this to go to waste, so we've prepared your dinner for you! Bon Appetit!


----------



## gary1218

frogboy said:


> Ed, we didn't want this to go to waste, so we've prepared your dinner for you! Bon Appetit!


I wonder if they might taste better broiled rather boiled...............with a little drawn butter


----------



## poison beauties

Hot Sauce makes everything better.....

Michael


----------



## Pumilo

gary1218 said:


> I wonder if they might taste better broiled rather boiled...............with a little drawn butter


Oh C'mon, we carved a tiny, little pat of butter for you! Do we have to do everything?


----------



## Ed

frogboy said:


> Ed, we didn't want this to go to waste, so we've prepared your dinner for you! Bon Appetit!


Just so you know, I've got a terrible headache and you made me laugh hard enough to start me coughing and make spots dance in front of my eyes... 

I haven't laughed that hard in a good while, thanks for the effort. It was worth it. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogboy said:


> Ed, I've done your experiment and even tried some whites for you. First we used bugs that have been on Ocean Nutrition Formula One and Two for a couple months, with no dogfood. They've gotten some Cyclope-Eeze too, but not for a couple weeks. Each set of bugs was boiled for several minutes. As you can see from the pics, there's really no color change. I hope this answers your questions.


Actually yes, it means that unlike some other crustaceans (crabs, shrimp, lobsters), (at least those isopods) don't have extra carotenoids bound up in the exoskeleton/tissues. It changes thier potential nutrient profiles a little.. while we can't quantify the level of carotenoids that may be stored elsewhere in the tissues, it gives an idea that they are probaby in line with other terrestrial inverts that have been tested, which means that they are probably poor sources of carotenoids. 

Thanks a lot for the help on this... The idea for this came to me while I was in bed, laying there thinking about the whole isopod issue. My wife thought I was nuts as I got up and went looking in my isopod cultures with a flashlight to see if I had enough left from seeding some enclosures.. and was running low on them. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

gary1218 said:


> I wonder if they might taste better broiled rather boiled...............with a little drawn butter


As I understand it, they are all edible, although the only one that has been rated for taste as far as I know is the giant deep sea isopod (see Giant isopod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


----------



## gary1218

Ed said:


> As I understand it, they are all edible, although the only one that has been rated for taste as far as I know is the giant deep sea isopod (see Giant isopod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


HOLY SH*T that's a big bug!!!


----------



## Ed

gary1218 said:


> HOLY SH*T that's a big bug!!!


 
I worked with them and they are pretty scary looking but really cool. I used to feed them pieces of smelt by hand. 

Ed


----------



## fishr

They seem to be related to the horseshoe crab? Neat "little" bugger.


----------



## Ed

Okay doing a little more digging into terrestrial isopod culturing and there appear to be three main items required for optimal growth, 
1) calcium
2) copper 
3) protein. 

copper is also a concern as it is accreted in the isopods in specialized tissues in the digestive tract. As a consequence, people may want to reconsider dumping supplements that have trace minerals in them into their isopod cultures. 

Splitting the cultures frequently or replacing the substrate frequently appears to be contraindicated in isopods as they do feed on fecal material to recover copper and to aquire some protien from microbial colonization. 

here is an abstract discussing it (I haven't decided if I'm going to buy it yet or not)
SpringerLink - Oecologia, Volume 53, Number 3 

http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/149/2/348.pdf

http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/51010034.pdf


----------



## gary1218

Ed said:


> Splitting the cultures frequently or replacing the substrate frequently appears to be contraindicated in isopods as they do feed on fecal material to recover copper and to aquire some protien from microbial colonization.


That's good to know. THANKS Ed.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Okay doing a little more digging into terrestrial isopod culturing and there appear to be three main items required for optimal growth,
> 1) calcium
> 2) copper
> 3) protein.
> 
> copper is also a concern as it is accreted in the isopods in specialized tissues in the digestive tract. As a consequence, people may want to reconsider dumping supplements that have trace minerals in them into their isopod cultures.
> 
> Splitting the cultures frequently or replacing the substrate frequently appears to be contraindicated in isopods as they do feed on fecal material to recover copper and to aquire some protien from microbial colonization.
> 
> here is an abstract discussing it (I haven't decided if I'm going to buy it yet or not)
> SpringerLink - Oecologia, Volume 53, Number 3
> 
> http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/149/2/348.pdf
> 
> http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/51010034.pdf


Just a quick comment on replacing substrates. My whites and Gray/striped are all still in original substrate and doing great. I swear my Oranges slow down on old substrate. No scientific testing done here. Just observation.


----------



## poison beauties

so why hasnt anyone tried a compost style media or feed
seems it may be beneficial.

Michael


----------



## Ed

poison beauties said:


> so why hasnt anyone tried a compost style media or feed
> seems it may be beneficial.
> 
> Michael


Well to some extent that is exactly what occurs in the enclosures.. but that isn't what you meant. 

The isopods benefit from compost that has multiple things working on the leaves as they prefer leaves that are already colonized and begun to decompose. And there are differences in the acceptability of different leaves. 
I don't know how monocultures would do with it. 
Ed


----------



## poison beauties

That was my point, They thrive under these conditions in viv and in the wild. I would like to put together a nice controlled mix to try out. It needs to contain of course as much of but not more than whats needed, copper, calcium and protean.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Has anyone done any experimentation with what kinds of leaves work the best? I currently am using Mullberry leaves as I have 6 large mullberry trees in my yard. I googled them and other than them causing some people alergies, I couldn't find any toxicity issues. I also have access to cottonwood and some live oak. I'm sure if I really drove around I could find something better.

So, what leaf litter is everyone using and why? I'll let you know my results with the mullberry as my cultures mature. All I can say at this point is that they didn't kill them.


----------



## Ed

The protein content of the dropped leaf is part of the key. I'd have to track them down again but there have been studies comparing some different leaves.. if I remember the one article correctly, aspen was better than oak as it had a higher protein content. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Has anyone done any experimentation with what kinds of leaves work the best? I currently am using Mullberry leaves as I have 6 large mullberry trees in my yard. I googled them and other than them causing some people alergies, I couldn't find any toxicity issues. I also have access to cottonwood and some live oak. I'm sure if I really drove around I could find something better.
> 
> So, what leaf litter is everyone using and why? I'll let you know my results with the mullberry as my cultures mature. All I can say at this point is that they didn't kill them.


I use a mix of red oak and live oak. Red Oak because I have a "safe" tree in my back yard and because I can see from the edges and holes, that it is obviously being eaten. Live Oak because it lasts longer.


Ed said:


> The protein content of the dropped leaf is part of the key. I'd have to track them down again but there have been studies comparing some different leaves.. if I remember the one article correctly, aspen was better than oak as it had a higher protein content.
> 
> Ed


Aspen huh? Where am I going to find aspen in Colorado?


----------



## Ed

Some interesting isopod articles 
http://www.biolbull.org/cgi/reprint/184/2/243.pdf

http://www.colby.edu/biology/BI131/Lab/Wolters 2000.pdf


----------



## Ed

I this one has some of the leaf information as well as the articles that are cited. 
http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/51010034.pdf


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Pumilo said:


> Aspen huh? Where am I going to find aspen in Colorado?


Hmmm I wonder......


----------



## fishr

What about aspen bedding used in pet shops?


----------



## Ed

aspen bedding is typically chipped interior wood and that is lacking in nutrients. It can be used to bulk up a media a little bit but you can't count on it to serve as a food source. 

Ed


----------



## fishr

Good to know. Thanks Ed!


----------



## John1451

Doug I just wanted to say thank you as always for your knowledge,care and time! You like Ed and so many others are VITAL to the success of us new froggers!

Cheers!

John


----------



## SavannaZilla

Thanks so much! I got my cultures going with this information.


----------



## Molch

Greetings,
I asked about a good source for woodlice starter cultures on caudata.org and you were recommended. I tried to send a pm and e-mail over this forum but I don't think it went through....
I'm raising some juvenile terrestrial newts and am looking to expand my feeder selection.
Do you happen to have any woodlice starter cultures available? If so, which type (white, gray, orange) would be best for small newts?

Cheers,
Claudia


----------



## Pumilo

Molch said:


> Greetings,
> I asked about a good source for woodlice starter cultures on caudata.org and you were recommended. I tried to send a pm and e-mail over this forum but I don't think it went through....
> I'm raising some juvenile terrestrial newts and am looking to expand my feeder selection.
> Do you happen to have any woodlice starter cultures available? If so, which type (white, gray, orange) would be best for small newts?
> 
> Cheers,
> Claudia


Sorry Claudia, they did go through but I was busy hauling 5 ft x 6 ft picture windows up scaffolding all weekend! PM sent.
Oh, and I am totally unfamiliar with what types and sizes of foods small newts eat. Can anybody out there help us with recommendations? Thanks!


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Sorry Claudia, they did go through but I was busy hauling 5 ft x 6 ft picture windows up scaffolding all weekend! PM sent.
> Oh, and I am totally unfamiliar with what types and sizes of foods small newts eat. Can anybody out there help us with recommendations? Thanks!


It depends somewhat on the species of newt as there are differences between metamorphs (and whether they need a terrestrial stage or not, as an example a number of Cynops species can be encouraged to not have a terrestrial stage allowing for easier feeding). With that said, pretty much all of the dwarf isopods would be okay but the whites and maybe the purples are going to be acceptable to the widest range of sizes of caudates. 

Ed


----------



## Molch

thanks folks 

the newts are about 2 " long and terrestrial (smooth newts and marbled newts); otherwise I feed them whiteworms, fruitflies and pinheads but I want to try different bugs.

Plus, I really enjoy culturing bugs, and I'm also setting up a tree frog terrarium and would like to seed the substrate with isopods..


----------



## R1ch13

Hiya Doug!

I would also like to thank you for such an in depth tutorial on how you have cultured the Orange Woodlice so successfully.

Hopefully through your instruction I can quickly raise the numbers of the small but humble culture that arrived here today.

Again, cheers for this! No stone left unturned, easily one of the best and most detailed Spring/Iso "how to's" around.

This should for sure be a sticky!

Regards,
Richie


----------



## fishr

I'm finding this mildly amusing. My dwarf grays have taken off very well. Little buggers are prolific! But my white isos either have bit the dust or doing a very good job hiding...


----------



## Pumilo

fishr said:


> I'm finding this mildly amusing. My dwarf grays have taken off very well. Little buggers are prolific! But my white isos either have bit the dust or doing a very good job hiding...


This post confuses me. What is amusing about it?


----------



## fishr

That I have no probs culturing one species but the other is enjoying the confusion from me. It's better to grin, then spank the crustatians.


----------



## Pumilo

fishr said:


> That I have no probs culturing one species but the other is enjoying the confusion from me. It's better to grin, then spank the crustatians.


You got the whites from me, right? I have plenty of whites right now. Dig through your culture and make sure they aren't just hiding. Or just sprinkle some high quality fish food in one spot on top and dig a bit under that spot in 24 hours. Be glad to offer you a free restart of the whites but I'd have to ask you to cover shipping and phase paks.


----------



## Golden State Mantellas

The dwarf white isos you sent me, Pumilo, are doing great, reproducing very rapidly. Of the original 30 you sent me 3 months ago, I counted last night no less than 100, with many hiding in the soil, in the cardboard corrugation, and in the Ficus benjamina leaves they LOVE to eat.

I'll be ready to pay forward your generosity very soon.


----------



## Pumilo

Golden State Mantellas said:


> The dwarf white isos you sent me, Pumilo, are doing great, reproducing very rapidly. Of the original 30 you sent me 3 months ago, I counted last night no less than 100, with many hiding in the soil, in the cardboard corrugation, and in the Ficus benjamina leaves they LOVE to eat.
> 
> I'll be ready to pay forward your generosity very soon.


Good to hear it Justin. Don't bother with rushing to "pay it forward". Wait till they are well established for you. 
On your question about Tomocerus trouble in the other thread, what are you culturing on and what are you feeding? I really don't have much trouble getting them going, but I do seem to be "cursed" with contaminants!! I've been trying to clean them of the white springs that were originally in there when I got them. Thought I finally had it when I made yet another mistake with them. I had pinholes for ventilation and had them on homemade mite paper to keep creepy crawlies out. Some phorrid flies managed to squeeze into them. On last checking them, 2/3 of the cultures were completely devoid of springtails but crawling with big fat Phorrid flies!! Grr!!


----------



## fishr

Pumilo said:


> You got the whites from me, right? I have plenty of whites right now. Dig through your culture and make sure they aren't just hiding. Or just sprinkle some high quality fish food in one spot on top and dig a bit under that spot in 24 hours. Be glad to offer you a free restart of the whites but I'd have to ask you to cover shipping and phase paks.


I'll try taking a closer look by digging at the bottom. I'll give the whites some Omega fish food. Thanks for the help and patience. I'll keep you posted. The greys are flourishing. Happy little buggers.


----------



## fishr

Doug,

You were right. They were hiding, and very well too.  Crustatians are neat critters. Can't wait to work with the oranges!


----------



## leonh

hi guy's i don't know if i can add to this thread a bit but hear goes with my new culture methods and i'm having brillant success with the springtails and iso's..heres my basic methods,first i go to local woods in the uk and collect mulch around the tree's english oak and sycamoar,the real broken down dark stuff like compost then next i find area's were stinging nettle's are growing,as the soil is the best for nutrients and calcium in the uk and it is very clay based,then also on food basics i collect wild lichens,mushrooms, fungus,certain flowers like pink thistle,buttercup (good for pollen) that some types of spring's feed on,wild grass,clover's,dandelion leaves and any patches of algae i find on my hunt's then once home i give they the collected food a quick wash then once done mix together in a coffee type grinder to break it down quicker for the culters,also regarding the mixes of soil i microwave it and mix the clay nettle with the woodland in 50/50 ratio then once cool i press about 1/2cm firmly down in a food container so its almost like a smooth plasticine or plaster so they stay more at the surface for easy harvesting,as it goes i don't have photos yet as belive it or not i never posted a photo before..(computer dumb) lol. but i hpe it gives a bit more insight into some of the method you can employ and i get a lot of my info from various foraging websites.


----------



## fishr

Very interesting. Always good to get feedback from our 'cousins' overseas.  Thanks for sharing.


----------



## fishr

Adding leaf litter to the top layer of the whites, and a mist, helped a lot. The whites did move to the surface. I put some leaf litter in for the grays since the whites liked it so much. I guess the white iso were feeling stressed.  Thanks Doug


----------



## Pumilo

Any time Jessica.


----------



## Golden State Mantellas

Doug,
I've been keeping the tomos on charcoal. I'm starting to think this method is a no-go for tomos. Luckily there are still a few left, I'm going to try and transfer them out to a coco fiber substrate.

The white isos I've been feeding avocado skins, banana peels, corrugated cardboard, boiled and crushed eggshell, and Ficus benjamina leaf litter. I mist lightly once a week and sprinkle about 1/8 tsp of Repashy Calcium Plus on the leaf litter. I have hundreds of dwarf whites in there. Oddly enough, it appears that the dwarf white culture has silver springs in it as well


----------



## Pumilo

Golden State Mantellas said:


> Doug,
> I've been keeping the tomos on charcoal. I'm starting to think this method is a no-go for tomos. Luckily there are still a few left, I'm going to try and transfer them out to a coco fiber substrate.
> 
> The white isos I've been feeding avocado skins, banana peels, corrugated cardboard, boiled and crushed eggshell, and Ficus benjamina leaf litter. I mist lightly once a week and sprinkle about 1/8 tsp of Repashy Calcium Plus on the leaf litter. I have hundreds of dwarf whites in there. Oddly enough, it appears that the dwarf white culture has silver springs in it as well


I do keep cultures of tomos on both charcoal and on coco. I do have to mist the charcoal ones, once or twice a week. 
I have quit using Repashy Calcium Plus in my cultures due to the possibility of isopods storing very large amounts of vitamins. (vitamin sequestering) 
That is odd about the silvers as I am not currently keeping any silvers. I did have a few in a Giant Orange culture for a while, but was unsuccessful in separating them to culture alone. Couldn't manage to find more than one or two at a time.
Hundreds of Whites sounds more like it. I thought your production was a little slow when you said 100. Nice!


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> I
> I have quit using Repashy Calcium Plus in my cultures due to the possibility of isopods storing very large amounts of vitamins. (vitamin sequestering)


It wouldn't be an issue if they sequestered all of the vitamins..it's the fact that they selectively sequester tocopherols that is the issue. 

Ed


----------



## Golden State Mantellas

Pumilo said:


> I do keep cultures of tomos on both charcoal and on coco. I do have to mist the charcoal ones, once or twice a week.
> I have quit using Repashy Calcium Plus in my cultures due to the possibility of isopods storing very large amounts of vitamins. (vitamin sequestering)
> That is odd about the silvers as I am not currently keeping any silvers. I did have a few in a Giant Orange culture for a while, but was unsuccessful in separating them to culture alone. Couldn't manage to find more than one or two at a time.
> Hundreds of Whites sounds more like it. I thought your production was a little slow when you said 100. Nice!


Yah, that original figure was just looking at the top piece of cardboard with the leaf litter pushed aside. When I flipped the cardboard I discovered a wall of isos gnawing away at the bottom of the cardboard.

Good to know about the vitamins, i'll cease that practice.  Thanks for the info as usual Doug and Ed.


----------



## hypostatic

Do springtails shed their skins? I got some pink STs and everytime I open the container I see what looks like shed exoskeletons... or dried up springtails...

I also have tropical white isopods, and I've never seen that in their culture. I keep both cultures almost the samen charcoal that is half-submerged in water. Any ideas?


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> Do springtails shed their skins? I got some pink STs and everytime I open the container I see what looks like shed exoskeletons... or dried up springtails...
> 
> I also have tropical white isopods, and I've never seen that in their culture. I keep both cultures almost the samen charcoal that is half-submerged in water. Any ideas?


Sorry I haven't returned that pm yet. Just been so busy lately. My Pinks have those "deposits" on my charcoal too. In every culture. I don't know if they are a shed skin or what they might be. They don't seem to hurt anything.


----------



## Ed

Yes they do molt. 

Ed


----------



## hypostatic

WHEW ok. I was worried I was doing something wrong. How much of these "deposits" end up accumulating in the culture?


----------



## Dew

Hey Pumilo. I read your posts here (and a lot of your other threads) and decided i'll had some springtails to my 3 tanks i'm building. I'll try to avoid the orange Isopods though, I would NOT want one of those crawling in my house! Even though they're very cool, they're creepy! But thanks for the imformation.


----------



## Pumilo

Dew said:


> Hey Pumilo. I read your posts here (and a lot of your other threads) and decided i'll had some springtails to my 3 tanks i'm building. I'll try to avoid the orange Isopods though, I would NOT want one of those crawling in my house! Even though they're very cool, they're creepy! But thanks for the imformation.


That's funny! I love my oranges! Almost like another pet. That's cool though, the Dwarf Whites and Dwarf Grays are probably better choices simply as a feeder anyway.


----------



## Bonobo

Hey Doug,

All the cultures you sent me are doing great.. Everything looks like it has at least doubled. I just have a little situation.. some of the tropical springs seem to have made it into my isopod cultures, and my tomos culture!

I read somewhere that it's not to big of an issue with the isopods.. because they possibly eat the springtail eggs. However, I only have one tomos culture setup, and I really don't want it to turn into a tropical whites culture :S

Should I just gather some of the substrate and the tomos.. being careful not to get any of the whites, and make a new culture? Or is it too late for that?

THANKS
Dave


----------



## Pumilo

Bonobo said:


> Hey Doug,
> 
> All the cultures you sent me are doing great.. Everything looks like it has at least doubled. I just have a little situation.. some of the tropical springs seem to have made it into my isopod cultures, and my tomos culture!
> 
> I read somewhere that it's not to big of an issue with the isopods.. because they possibly eat the springtail eggs. However, I only have one tomos culture setup, and I really don't want it to turn into a tropical whites culture :S
> 
> Should I just gather some of the substrate and the tomos.. being careful not to get any of the whites, and make a new culture? Or is it too late for that?
> 
> THANKS
> Dave


Hey Dave, There are some methods you can try to "clean" a culture. I've been meaning to do a thread about that. For a large springtail like a Tomocerus, here is what I do. Collect a small amount from your contaminated culture. This will obviously have to include some of the target critters, Tomocerus in this case. It can also include media and the contaminant (springtails, mites, or whatever). Put a lid on it and put it in the fridge for a while. It may take an hour or so before they get sluggish. Now take off the lid and put in the freezer for about 30 seconds to a minute. At this point they will look dead. Quickly pour them onto a refrigerated kitchen plate. You may want to get your wife/girlfriend out of the house for a while before pouring bugs all over her kitchen plates!! Refrigerating the plate gives you longer working time before they "wake up" and start jumping around. I also like to put a couple of refrigerated gel paks under the plate. Using a tiny modelers paintbrush, quickly seperate about 30 of the largest ones. Make sure there are no contaminants in your separated sample. Brush them into your new, sterilized, media. Feed em and close them up tight. You should make several small cultures in case you messed one up and got a few whites in the mix. As you are starting with a small sample, it will show up quickly if you messed one up. Good thing you made 3 or 4!
IMPORTANT Work with only a small portion of the master culture at once! If you get distracted and leave it in the fridge or freezer too long, they will die. You don't want to risk your entire culture.
Once they are producing well and you know they are clean, Dump your old contaminated culture into one of your vivs. 
For obvious reasons, this method works best with large springtails like Tomocerus.
Please report back on this thread and let us know how it works out for you, Dave. Good Luck!


----------



## Ed

White springtails are fairly invasive to other cultures. I now keep the whites in the basement away from other cultures. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> White springtails are fairly invasive to other cultures. I now keep the whites in the basement away from other cultures.
> 
> Ed


Excellent idea Ed, those little buggers do seem to get around!


----------



## hypostatic

Yea I imagined that since they need 100% humidity they'd dry up once they got out of the culture. But I guess they can live long enough out to the culture at least to travel to a nearby culture!


----------



## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Yea I imagined that since they need 100% humidity they'd dry up once they got out of the culture. But I guess they can live long enough out to the culture at least to travel to a nearby culture!


I started doing this when I noticed them showing up in cultures that were within several feet of thier culture.

Ed


----------



## gootswa

Thanks for this pumilo, gonna be a big help here shortly!


----------



## Bonobo

Awesome stuff man! Got a few cultures made up.. couldn't quite knock the suckers out, but they were dazed enough for me to capture a few with some cotton swabs. 

I will leave a update in a few weeks, and let everyone know how it go's!

Thanks again,
Dave


----------



## leonh

this is a really good thread,and as it goes i keep my cultures seperate in another room as i can't stand them being contaminated by mites,also another good tip is to put clingfilm or i think you guys call it food rap lol.
as it provides another barrier to stop invasions,then all i do is burp the cultures every other day to exchange air.


----------



## insularexotics

All this great info from Ed and Doug, but nothing on Giant Canyon isos. Anyone out there got any tips as mine definitely don't seem to follow the same trends as the others.


----------



## Pumilo

leonh said:


> this is a really good thread,and as it goes i keep my cultures seperate in another room as i can't stand them being contaminated by mites,also another good tip is to put clingfilm or i think you guys call it food rap lol.
> as it provides another barrier to stop invasions,then all i do is burp the cultures every other day to exchange air.


That is a good idea, but make sure your production doesn't get too high or they could still suffocate. I like to use the .3 micron filter pads mentioned earlier in the thread. In now use it on all of my cultures.



insularexotics said:


> All this great info from Ed and Doug, but nothing on Giant Canyon isos. Anyone out there got any tips as mine definitely don't seem to follow the same trends as the others.


Sorry, but those huge beasts would give my itty bitty thumbnails nightmares! lol I don't work with them. 
If anybody else has any info on them, please post here.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> That is a good idea, but make sure your production doesn't get too high or they could still suffocate. I like to use the .3 micron filter pads mentioned earlier in the thread. In now use it on all of my cultures.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, but those huge beasts would give my itty bitty thumbnails nightmares! lol I don't work with them.
> If anybody else has any info on them, please post here.


 
I haven't messed with them either... Isopods are reported as being predacious in some situations and I don't want to tempt fate... 

Ed


----------



## leonh

thats good pumilo i like the idea of all my cultures haveing a bit of ventilation
and as it goes i did some time last year make some with small circular holes done with a 20mm drill bit and covered them with a small bit of fabric weed block but eventually they got contaminated with mites although then they were kind of next to fruit fly culters which there not anymore,one thing though is i'm still concerned that springs can squeeze out of the lid rims in certain amounts as i sometimes see them dried and dead on top of another culture they stood on, thats why i was also using food rap to stop this but i still like the idea more of having ventalation at all times what would you suggest?


----------



## hypostatic

Pumilo said:


> That is a good idea, but make sure your production doesn't get too high or they could still suffocate. I like to use the .3 micron filter pads mentioned earlier in the thread. In now use it on all of my cultures.


I'm really interested in these micron filters. Do they work to keep mites out? I've been looking for good micron filters to use with mason jars for reusable FF cultures =].


----------



## Falgellum

Howdy, I've got a couple questions that I've been scouring all over the internet for or posted on other forums. I decided to start a culture of woodlice collected from my backyard for janitorial purposes in my vivs. 

I was wondering if feeding them Fluker's Orange Cube Complete Cricket Diet was an okay thing to do. Figured it doesn't go bad (i.e. mold) as I've used it for my mealworm culture and it lasts for quite some time. Also contains vitamins and calcium which they need and I figured throwing a cube or two into the viv every once in a while will supply them with sufficient nutrients. Or should I just feed them detritus (or both)?

My other question is I'm trying to grow moss in my new setup which is fairing slightly well (as in not "dark green" but still alive). Will the woodlice eat that or will they focus on say dead leaves that I can throw in there instead?


----------



## Wallace Grover

Falgellum said:


> Howdy, I've got a couple questions that I've been scouring all over the internet for or posted on other forums. I decided to start a culture of woodlice collected from my backyard for janitorial purposes in my vivs.
> 
> I was wondering if feeding them Fluker's Orange Cube Complete Cricket Diet was an okay thing to do. Figured it doesn't go bad (i.e. mold) as I've used it for my mealworm culture and it lasts for quite some time. Also contains vitamins and calcium which they need and I figured throwing a cube or two into the viv every once in a while will supply them with sufficient nutrients. Or should I just feed them detritus (or both)?
> 
> My other question is I'm trying to grow moss in my new setup which is fairing slightly well (as in not "dark green" but still alive). Will the woodlice eat that or will they focus on say dead leaves that I can throw in there instead?


I'm not so sure I would use Flukers cubes on isopods, it seems a bit of a waste considering they will eat just about anything. Unless you have no use for the cubes anymore, I would just feed a small amount of vegetable/fruit scraps and fish food.


----------



## Ed

Keep in mind that isopods and many other invertebrates store high levels of vitamin E and this can potentially be a risk for disrupting uptake of vitamin A and D3.... 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

UPDATE ON SPRINGTAIL CARE
I've been meaning to post this for a while. As my production has gone up and I've had cultures with many thousands of springtails, I have seen a couple crash from CO2 buildup. That many critters combined with CO2 producing live yeast, can take it's toll. I have now begun ventilating ALL of my master cultures (both isopods and springs), with the .3 micron filters that Frogparty told us about. They are referenced in page 2 of this thread.


----------



## gary1218

Pumilo said:


> UPDATE ON SPRINGTAIL CARE
> I've been meaning to post this for a while. As my production has gone up and I've had cultures with many thousands of springtails, I have seen a couple crash from CO2 buildup. That many critters combined with CO2 producing live yeast, can take it's toll. I have now begun ventilating ALL of my master cultures (both isopods and springs), with the .3 micron filters that Frogparty told us about. They are referenced in page 2 of this thread.


I've seen the same problem with my springtail cultures, particularly when I feed them active yeast. I ventilate all my cultures as well but use a little different method than yours. Same result though.


----------



## hypostatic

What method do you use?


----------



## Pumilo

gary1218 said:


> I've seen the same problem with my springtail cultures, particularly when I feed them active yeast. I ventilate all my cultures as well but use a little different method than yours. Same result though.


If you'd care to share, Gary, please feel free to throw it up here.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> UPDATE ON SPRINGTAIL CARE
> I've been meaning to post this for a while. As my production has gone up and I've had cultures with many thousands of springtails, I have seen a couple crash from CO2 buildup. That many critters combined with CO2 producing live yeast, can take it's toll. I have now begun ventilating ALL of my master cultures (both isopods and springs), with the .3 micron filters that Frogparty told us about. They are referenced in page 2 of this thread.


Unless the yeast is fed, any CO2 production should be minimal if at all. They need a source of carbohydrates to begin any real level of growth and production of CO2... Off the top of my head I can't think of any carbohydrates in my cultures that could be used by the yeasts to create CO2. 

Ed


----------



## gary1218

Pumilo said:


> If you'd care to share, Gary, please feel free to throw it up here.


My method isn't anything "earth shattering" or fancy. Pretty simple and straightforward. I'll try and get some pics up tonight when I get home from work.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Unless the yeast is fed, any CO2 production should be minimal if at all. They need a source of carbohydrates to begin any real level of growth and production of CO2... Off the top of my head I can't think of any carbohydrates in my cultures that could be used by the yeasts to create CO2.
> 
> Ed


Hey Ed, even if you are dumping about 3/4 teaspoon in to feed a heavy culture for a week? Twice now I've had a crash the next day after doing that. Since adding ventilation I can add that much without a problem.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Hey Ed, even if you are dumping about 3/4 teaspoon in to feed a heavy culture for a week? Twice now I've had a crash the next day after doing that. Since adding ventilation I can add that much without a problem.


Off the top of my head and just speculating, the addition of the yeast could also fire up the microbial fauna by providing a large nutrient source. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Off the top of my head and just speculating, the addition of the yeast could also fire up the microbial fauna by providing a large nutrient source.
> 
> Ed


Ahh, makes sense. So same end effect but different reason for it. Filter vent still fixes it though. Thanks Ed!


----------



## Molch

well, I just got my shipment of bugs from Doug: oranges, whites and grays.

The oranges esp. look so yummy I had to bite my lip to keep from eating them myself.

I got the ziplock containers, some ABG mix and leaf litter. Before I set them up, I have a couple questions: if these have been asked before, my apologies - (my connection is so slow it'll take me a month to go through all 23 pages of this thread):

- what would be an acceptable range f temps for the isopod cultures? 
- what would be an optimal temp for production?
- instead of microwaving, can one bake the soil mix in the oven to sterilize it? If so, at what temp and how long?
- those 22 -phase packs: what exactly do they do and how does one "refresh" them? Doug, do you need them back? I'm thinkin' they might be nice for sending out my baby newts...


----------



## Pumilo

Molch said:


> well, I just got my shipment of bugs from Doug: oranges, whites and grays.
> 
> The oranges esp. look so yummy I had to bite my lip to keep from eating them myself.
> 
> I got the ziplock containers, some ABG mix and leaf litter. Before I set them up, I have a couple questions: if these have been asked before, my apologies - (my connection is so slow it'll take me a month to go through all 23 pages of this thread):
> 
> - what would be an acceptable range f temps for the isopod cultures?
> - what would be an optimal temp for production?
> - instead of microwaving, can one bake the soil mix in the oven to sterilize it? If so, at what temp and how long?
> - those 22 -phase packs: what exactly do they do and how does one "refresh" them? Doug, do you need them back? I'm thinkin' they might be nice for sending out my baby newts...


- I have both springs and isos in a couple of different rooms. The temps range between 70 to 80 F. They survived a week of no air conditioning where the temps were over 90 F. Can't say how far over as we were out of town. 
-I'm afraid I can't answer optimal temp.
- I would be worried about drying out. Instead, how about boiling everything and then just squeeze the excess water out. You are just trying to kill any eggs so I would think a 10 minute boil would be plenty.
- Phase 22 Paks. There is no need to regenerate or refresh them. You just prep them for hot or cold shipping. Here is how to prep them for use. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/69949-phase-praise-2.html
I don't need them back, they are figured into the shipping price. Definitely put them to use though. They are infinitely reusable!


----------



## fishr

Culturing bugs is fun!  The cultures I have picked up from Doug are doing great. The grays are pretty much lovin' life. It's interesting to watch the little guys scurry around. They are more active than the white isos, but then again, the whites reproduce slower. However, both sure do seem to enjoy their fish food. I am very fond of the brand Omega, a company from Alaska that uses whole food sources, no fillers or preservatives.

Looking forward to the wonderful saga of culturing oranges and pink springtails. lol


----------



## Pumilo

You're right, Jessica, Omega One is a great fish food. I would say it's as good a choice as the Ocean Nutrition that I use. For anyone wanting to try it, the three best choices to try are probably:
1) Super Color Flakes
2) Marine Flakes
3) Freshwater Flakes


----------



## fishr

Agreed. I believe Ocean Nutrition and Omega are basically equal in nutrition. I used both brands for my reef. Not sure why now that I think about it. lol

To add to the list, Omega's Cichlid flake formula is also worth experimenting with. A good percentage of African Cichlids are ironically more vegetarians than carnivorous. While they are omivorous, I remeber zuccini was an accepted treat, though I can not recall the genuses now.


----------



## Pumilo

Hey Jessica, I'll bet you are referring to Tropheus Chiclids. Feed them much meat and it rots in their intestines, killing them.


----------



## fishr

That's it! Tropheus. I seem to have had a hard time memorizing African's Latin names, and every so often, they change, making it more difficult.


----------



## Wallace Grover

Just a quick little "thing" I do, may be useful may not. My boxes are under my my vivs on a wire rack so they get a little bit of light in the daytime. I actually added a few little cuttings of wandering jew (I think you could use creeping fig or pothos too, pothos is probably too big though) and the bugs love to crawl on it, sleep on the leaves, etc. and as an added bonus the few dead leaves that appear get eaten. I suppose they pump some oxygen in there too.


I have a question too, is there a rough estimation for how many isopods you see vs how many are in there, do they burrow in the soil??


----------



## hypostatic

So I just stumbled upon this and posted it in a different post, and I figured I'd post it here to because of its relevance for those who are interested:

GENETICS OF PIGMENTATION IN PORCELLIO SCABER LATREILLE, 1804
(ISOPODA, ONISCIDEA)
http://labs.csb.utoronto.ca/larsen/pdf/Sowbug.pdf


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> So I just stumbled upon this and posted it in a different post, and I figured I'd post it here to because of its relevance for those who are interested:
> 
> GENETICS OF PIGMENTATION IN PORCELLIO SCABER LATREILLE, 1804
> (ISOPODA, ONISCIDEA)
> http://labs.csb.utoronto.ca/larsen/pdf/Sowbug.pdf


Sweet! Now I want to breed a bright pink one, with blue polka dots!
On another note, this means we are all line breeding in our vivs!! Everyone with Giant Orange, anyway.


----------



## hypostatic

You know, in the methods section of the paper it says that they supplemented their isos with chalk. Is this something we should be doing that might speed up their development?


----------



## Pumilo

That would be to add calcium. Depends on what you are feeding and what your substrate is. You do want some sort of calcium. If you are feeding mostly veggies, then you want to suppliment. If you are still just in grow out and feeding fish flake and/or quality dog food, then you are adding plenty of calcium.


----------



## Wallace Grover

Quick question, what is wrong with pouring the peat (or coco fiber, I think thats what mine was) on the charcoal?


----------



## Ed

Other than changing the ability to harvest large numbers by flooding the culture? Nothing really but with a highly saturated substrate it can also go anaerobic. 

Ed


----------



## james67

@ doug:

how are the pearl springs doing? my mother has bounced back nicely and ive split it into 3 mother cultures. i'm using only fine coco fiber for the new cultures and it seems to be working fine.

james


----------



## fishr

I dreamed about fish flakes, color enhancing flakes and choosing which brand was superior. Thanks, Doug.  hehe


----------



## Bonobo

Bonobo said:


> Awesome stuff man! Got a few cultures made up.. couldn't quite knock the suckers out, but they were dazed enough for me to capture a few with some cotton swabs.
> 
> I will leave a update in a few weeks, and let everyone know how it go's!
> 
> Thanks again,
> Dave


Little update!

Cultures are producing great, they're %100 black tomocerus.. been feeding them out for a while now. I actually setup two cultures, using only 5/6 adults each.. and now they're in the hundreds!

Thanks again for the tip!


----------



## Pumilo

Bonobo said:


> Little update!
> 
> Cultures are producing great, they're %100 black tomocerus.. been feeding them out for a while now. I actually setup two cultures, using only 5/6 adults each.. and now they're in the hundreds!
> 
> Thanks again for the tip!


Thanks for the update Dave! This was in response to creating a clean culture from a contaminated one. See procedure followed in the quote below.



Pumilo said:


> Hey Dave, There are some methods you can try to "clean" a culture. I've been meaning to do a thread about that. For a large springtail like a Tomocerus, here is what I do. Collect a small amount from your contaminated culture. This will obviously have to include some of the target critters, Tomocerus in this case. It can also include media and the contaminant (springtails, mites, or whatever). Put a lid on it and put it in the fridge for a while. It may take an hour or so before they get sluggish. Now take off the lid and put in the freezer for about 30 seconds to a minute. At this point they will look dead. Quickly pour them onto a refrigerated kitchen plate. You may want to get your wife/girlfriend out of the house for a while before pouring bugs all over her kitchen plates!! Refrigerating the plate gives you longer working time before they "wake up" and start jumping around. I also like to put a couple of refrigerated gel paks under the plate. Using a tiny modelers paintbrush, quickly seperate about 30 of the largest ones. Make sure there are no contaminants in your separated sample. Brush them into your new, sterilized, media. Feed em and close them up tight. You should make several small cultures in case you messed one up and got a few whites in the mix. As you are starting with a small sample, it will show up quickly if you messed one up. Good thing you made 3 or 4!
> IMPORTANT Work with only a small portion of the master culture at once! If you get distracted and leave it in the fridge or freezer too long, they will die. You don't want to risk your entire culture.
> Once they are producing well and you know they are clean, Dump your old contaminated culture into one of your vivs.
> For obvious reasons, this method works best with large springtails like Tomocerus.
> Please report back on this thread and let us know how it works out for you, Dave. Good Luck!


----------



## hypostatic

So I would just like to say that I've been using a hybrid Pumilo/MarkBudde culturing method for isos. I use the large ziplock containers, and I fill them 1/3 of the way with 50% peat moss, and 50% shredded cardboard. It's been working great for me; a giant orange culture that I started in sept already has lots of babies running around.

The one thing that is missing is like a plastic sheet (non-hazardous/biodegradable) that I can just lay on top of the substrate so the isos will accumulate on there and I can easily brush them off to collect them...


----------



## Pumilo

Nice! I love how many different ways you can have success with these guys. Try adding some sterilized leaf litter into your mix.


----------



## Kalakole

I recently caved and decided to order spanish orange isopods from bugs in cyber space. They came alive and active so i was happy. I put them into a plastic shoe box container from homedepot with half ABG and half leaf litter. I covered a portion of the substrate up with cardboard and my only concern is if I could have possibly over saturated the substrate? I have only seen about 5 of the origional 15 over the past day and figured they borrowed under the substrate i'm only concerned because they were so small (1/4 inch) that I possibly should have started them off in a smaller container?

Any thoughts?


----------



## fishr

Try misting the subtrate. They might be burrowed towards the bottom where it's most humid. A shoe box is a bit large for only 15 1/4 inch individuals so this may be part of the problem why it's difficult to find the the little buggers. I wouldn't worry too much cause when they grow up some, and start having babies, you'll see them more for sure. 

The way you setted them up is fine. Mine are in a Glad containor I set up about three or four months ago. I'll have to put them into a shoe box eventually.


----------



## Kalakole

Well, as long as they will grow fine in a shoe box i'll be happy =)


----------



## fishr

I just looked at my own culture about twenty minutes ago. They mowed the mold which was growing. It was a lot of mold too and I wasn't sure if it'd would overtake the bugs. Guess not! 

These orange isos are so freaking neat. I love cructations!


----------



## Pumilo

They'll be fine in your shoebox. I only recommend starting in a smaller container with the Dwarf varieties, especially those lazy whites!
As far as how wet to run it, it should only be moist. If you can squeeze a handful of substrate and water drips out, it is too wet. I set my brother up and he decided that if moist was good, wet was better. Plus he wouldn't have to worry about periodic misting. Two or three months later, my cultures were doing great and his was barely producing. His adults were smaller than mine and he had WAY fewer babies running around.
Jessica, I love crustaceans too. Mostly with a drawn butter and bit of lemon. mmm!


----------



## fishr

Pumilo said:


> Jessica, I love crustaceans too. Mostly with a drawn butter and bit of lemon. mmm!


Wow, I can't spell. xD I perfer them spicy, nixing the lemon. *drools*


----------



## Edhurl

Anyone try just crushed leaf litter?


----------



## Pumilo

That should work well if it's damp enough. Fresh leaves seem to take a while before they hold much moisture so make sure they are holding some moisture for humidity.


----------



## frogparty

You should try deciduous bark in addition to/as a substitute for just leaf litter. It holds up much longer, holds moisture well, and doesn't compact as much with age. In wisconsisn I would try paper birch


----------



## Pumilo

frogparty said:


> You should try deciduous bark in addition to/as a substitute for just leaf litter. It holds up much longer, holds moisture well, and doesn't compact as much with age. In wisconsisn I would try paper birch


Have you ever tried thicker, deciduous bark? I have access to Red Oak and Crabapple.


----------



## frogparty

I haven't. Thinner seems more easily consumable


----------



## Pumilo

Yeah, that's what I figured.


----------



## stu&shaz

Doug again i'd like to thank you for this thread!!
Over the course of this summer our dwarf white population has grown to huge numbers,we are using a variation on your edible subs mix,mainly beech and oak leaflitter say half rotted,bits of rotton plum wood and a bit of cardboard on top as a humidity guage,staple food is ready break with a bit of fish flake,coupled with veg scraps,of note we recently gave them an overipe marrow,they have consumed the lot in just over a week. They are kept in 3L tubs with a vent at one end,and kept quite warm roughtly high seventies.
We use bits of oak bark in our springtail cultures (for feed out),but havent tried this in the iso,as what we have been doing is working so so well.Note the marrow was also used with some charcoal springtails and proved an excellant way of feeding out cut in quite large bits.
Doug what is the significane of using yeast in the springtail cultures? We normally use readybreak and are doing pretty well,i'm warey of yeast as i used it in an unvented culture of dwarf whites and they suffocated,but almost of our cultures are now vented so was thinking maybe to give it another try
regards
Stu


----------



## frogparty

yeast produces CO2, which in an unvented container can definitely kill your bugs. Try it again in a vented tub. Mite free is the biggest plus for me, but I get better production on veggie slices allowed to liquify in their tub. Springtails love bacterial liquifaction


----------



## Pumilo

frogparty said:


> yeast produces CO2, which in an unvented container can definitely kill your bugs. Try it again in a vented tub. Mite free is the biggest plus for me, but I get better production on veggie slices allowed to liquify in their tub. Springtails love bacterial liquifaction


Yes, it is considered a "cleaner" source of food, as in less chance of bringing mites into your cultures.


----------



## Judy S

it interests me that people try to go so "sterile" with things for the vivs, and yet the springs, isos, etc. feed on things that are not, and then are put into the sterile vivariums...am I just confused about some rational thing here??? And we sure know that some of the other live food can hardly be considered sterile...so is it just a matter of degree, or ability to control a certain level???


----------



## Edhurl

Judy S said:


> it interests me that people try to go so "sterile" with things for the vivs, and yet the springs, isos, etc. feed on things that are not, and then are put into the sterile vivariums...am I just confused about some rational thing here??? And we sure know that some of the other live food can hardly be considered sterile...so is it just a matter of degree, or ability to control a certain level???


What she said


----------



## Pumilo

Well you need to keep in mind that this thread is talking about sterility within your *cultures*, not your vivs. This is important, particularly with springtails, because of the pest problems you can introduce into your culture. If you accidently introduce detritus mites, fungus flies, grindle worms, or nematodes, they will compete with your springtails for food. If you introduce little goodies like spider eggss, predator mites, phorid flies, or Nemerteans They can hunt down and kill your springtails.


----------



## hypostatic

Judy S said:


> it interests me that people try to go so "sterile" with things for the vivs, and yet the springs, isos, etc. feed on things that are not, and then are put into the sterile vivariums...am I just confused about some rational thing here??? And we sure know that some of the other live food can hardly be considered sterile...so is it just a matter of degree, or ability to control a certain level???


As far as the food cultures go, the sterility that we try to employ isn't really for the health of the frogs -- its for the well-being of the food that we are trying to grow FOR the frogs. We are trying to be sterile in an attempt to grow only one type of food item in each container; a monoculture of food for the frogs. By only growing one item in each container, the bugs don't have any competition for resources, and their growth is maximized.

The same thing is seen when we look at how we humans grow our food: we plant most food items like corn/wheat/apples in a monoculture so that the food has no competition, and we get the most food possible.


----------



## stu&shaz

frogparty said:


> yeast produces CO2, which in an unvented container can definitely kill your bugs. Try it again in a vented tub. Mite free is the biggest plus for me, but I get better production on veggie slices allowed to liquify in their tub. Springtails love bacterial liquifaction


Ydoug and frog party thanks,so essentially we don't tend to have problems with mites attracted to yeasts,yes i've noted the bacterial liquifaction although i wouldn't have been able to call it that,i understand exactly what you mean!!
regards
Stu


----------



## Pumilo

stu&shaz said:


> Ydoug and frog party thanks,so essentially we don't tend to have problems with mites attracted to yeasts,yes i've noted the bacterial liquifaction although i wouldn't have been able to call it that,i understand exactly what you mean!!
> regards
> Stu


Not just attracted to yeast...but actually eggs for grain mites and detritus mites carried in to your cultures from the feed you use.
Bacterial liquification is a more polite way of saying "rotting to the point it is turning to liquid".


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> yeast produces CO2, which in an unvented container can definitely kill your bugs. Try it again in a vented tub. Mite free is the biggest plus for me, but I get better production on veggie slices allowed to liquify in their tub. Springtails love bacterial liquifaction


Don't forget that the bacteria that feed on the vegetables or other organics also produce CO2....(as do the springtails). It isn't just a risk when you feed yeast. 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

True, but yeast respiration produces yeast at a more rapid rate I believe. Since I culture saccharomyces cerevisiae at work for ethanol fermentation, I can definite tell you that a pure culture of yeast in a fermenter produces much more co2 than a culture of bacillus at the same optical density


----------



## frogparty

And let's not forget that the strains of this yeast chosen for baking and brewing produce more co2 than wild type.


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> True, but yeast respiration produces yeast at a more rapid rate I believe. Since I culture saccharomyces cerevisiae at work for ethanol fermentation, I can definite tell you that a pure culture of yeast in a fermenter produces much more co2 than a culture of bacillus at the same optical density


Are pure cultures in ideal conditions really comparable to diverse population with a variety of foods in this case? The live yeasts added to feed the springtails are going to be limited by the lack of readily available fermentable carbohydrates (as there isn't going to be a lot of free carbohydrates in a established charcoal springtail culture or even one on a ABG plus leaf style culture method as the other microbes and even the springtails are going to have them bound up or competing for them) while the multiple microbes on a piece of decaying fruit or vegetable are going to have access to a wider variety of carbon sources some of which are ending up as CO2..... 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

That's true. One more reason for filters on the top of my cultures.


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> That's true. One more reason for filters on the top of my cultures.


Too true.. I have some filters on the way as well so I can modify some more culture lids. Sometimes I think I've spent too much time thinking about my food cultures. 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

I lost several cultures before I began using the filters. I was jus starting out and it really irked me, because I hate killing things, even if they are just springtails. I had the micron filters already from grain spawn culture for mycelium, and tried them out, I've been sold ever since. Now I use them on my fly cultures too and I really like the results there as well. 

Eve though I get better production, I dont like how the spoiling veggies foul my charcoal cultures. Not a big deal on coir


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Too true.. I have some filters on the way as well so I can modify some more culture lids. Sometimes I think I've spent too much time thinking about my food cultures.
> 
> Ed


Depending on what your culture lids are made of, silicone may not stick well to attache your filters. It did not work well, long term, for my Ziploc style containers. I had to switch to hot glue.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Depending on what your culture lids are made of, silicone may not stick well to attache your filters. It did not work well, long term, for my Ziploc style containers. I had to switch to hot glue.


I knew about the issues with silicone so I started right off the bat with hot glue. 

Ed


----------



## hypostatic

Ed said:


> Are pure cultures in ideal conditions really comparable to diverse population with a variety of foods in this case? The live yeasts added to feed the springtails are going to be limited by the lack of readily available fermentable carbohydrates (as there isn't going to be a lot of free carbohydrates in a established charcoal springtail culture or even one on a ABG plus leaf style culture method as the other microbes and even the springtails are going to have them bound up or competing for them) while the multiple microbes on a piece of decaying fruit or vegetable are going to have access to a wider variety of carbon sources some of which are ending up as CO2.....
> 
> Ed


I hadn't thought about the resource availability for the yeast that are fed to the springtails. Do you think it would be viable to supplement a culture with table sugar to keep to induce yeast reproduction? Or would this be a bad idea for some reason?


----------



## Ed

hypostatic said:


> I hadn't thought about the resource availability for the yeast that are fed to the springtails. Do you think it would be viable to supplement a culture with table sugar to keep to induce yeast reproduction? Or would this be a bad idea for some reason?


Other than the massive production of CO2 and potentially ethanol gassing the culture? 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

Theoretically each mole of glucose produces two moles ethanol and two moles co2, so feeding the yeast would definitely be producing a lot of metabolic products you don't want in your culture


----------



## hypostatic

Would this be a big problem if the cultures are well vented? Also, aren't white springtails well adapted for low O2 conditions, so they might be able to handle this scenario well?


----------



## rhino43grr

noobish questions regarding both isopod and springtail cultures:

in a charcoal culture for springtails, is it normal for them to congregate in the water at the bottom rather than staying primarily on the charcoal itself? there are lots of springtails swimming around on the surface of the water, but it seems like less tend to be on the charcoal when i open the container. maybe they're just fleeing/hiding when i open the container in an attempt to make me ask this question so i'll be embarrassed by the simplicity of the answer.

in a culture of isopods on ABG-style substrate with leaf litter, do i need to add a pellet of dry dog food? i put one in initially, but took it out after i noticed it had created a giant ball of mold.

both cultures seem to be doing fine and producing well, but i figured it wouldn't hurt to ask since those questions had been bugging me. (pun only slightly intended)


----------



## Ed

rhino43grr said:


> noobish questions regarding both isopod and springtail cultures:
> 
> in a charcoal culture for springtails, is it normal for them to congregate in the water at the bottom rather than staying primarily on the charcoal itself? there are lots of springtails swimming around on the surface of the water, but it seems like less tend to be on the charcoal when i open the container. maybe they're just fleeing/hiding when i open the container in an attempt to make me ask this question so i'll be embarrassed by the simplicity of the answer.
> 
> in a culture of isopods on ABG-style substrate with leaf litter, do i need to add a pellet of dry dog food? i put one in initially, but took it out after i noticed it had created a giant ball of mold.
> 
> both cultures seem to be doing fine and producing well, but i figured it wouldn't hurt to ask since those questions had been bugging me. (pun only slightly intended)


Yes the springtails often congregate on the surface of the water as they then feed on the biofilm on the surface of the water. This also makes it a easy mechanism for collecting them. 

You can crush the dog food pellet to allow you to feed the cultures with smaller amounts until the numbers build. Typically if you are seeing mold it is because there is more food than the inverts can consume. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> I hadn't thought about the resource availability for the yeast that are fed to the springtails. Do you think it would be viable to supplement a culture with table sugar to keep to induce yeast reproduction? Or would this be a bad idea for some reason?


Hmm, yeast, sugar, and water...are you trying to get the female springtails drunk for reproductive purposes? I'm not sure they have the same inhibitions. Seriously though I think active production of the CO2 would really be a recipe for disaster and the alcohol produced couldn't be a good thing.



rhino43grr said:


> noobish questions regarding both isopod and springtail cultures:
> 
> in a charcoal culture for springtails, is it normal for them to congregate in the water at the bottom rather than staying primarily on the charcoal itself? there are lots of springtails swimming around on the surface of the water, but it seems like less tend to be on the charcoal when i open the container. maybe they're just fleeing/hiding when i open the container in an attempt to make me ask this question so i'll be embarrassed by the simplicity of the answer.
> 
> in a culture of isopods on ABG-style substrate with leaf litter, do i need to add a pellet of dry dog food? i put one in initially, but took it out after i noticed it had created a giant ball of mold.
> 
> both cultures seem to be doing fine and producing well, but i figured it wouldn't hurt to ask since those questions had been bugging me. (pun only slightly intended)


Ed's right. Don't forget to supplement with veggie scraps for free bug meals and also to keep your Tocopherols down.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Hmm, yeast, sugar, and water...are you trying to get the female springtails drunk for reproductive purposes? I'm not sure they have the same inhibitions. Seriously though I think active production of the CO2 would really be a recipe for disaster and the alcohol produced couldn't be a good thing.


Hmm... at least for the Folsomia it doesn't work quite that way since if I remember correctly they are parthenogenic......

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Hmm... at least for the Folsomia it doesn't work quite that way since if I remember correctly they are parthenogenic......
> 
> Ed


That takes all the fun out of the whole process, Ed!


----------



## rhino43grr

ok, thanks guys. my concerns are eased (except for the suspicion that the springtails were trying to make me ask a silly question, that one's confirmed)


----------



## hypostatic

Also, I'm wondering if the springtails wouldn't also eat some of the sugars once it began to dissolve and was in solution?


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> Also, I'm wondering if the springtails wouldn't also eat some of the sugars once it began to dissolve and was in solution?


My gut feeling is that it would not work well. If you try it, make sure it is with an expendable culture. Sounds like a good use for a mite contaminated culture.


----------



## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Also, I'm wondering if the springtails wouldn't also eat some of the sugars once it began to dissolve and was in solution?


Well how do you expect the springtails to be able to extract the sugar before the yeast and other microbes explode? 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Well how do you expect the springtails to be able to extract the sugar before the yeast and other microbes explode?
> 
> Ed


And if they could extract the sugar, then the yeast would be right back to where we started. Not reproducing because their food source was removed. Put more sugar in and they are back to stewing in a bowl of "prison wine".


----------



## hypostatic

Haha prison wine. I have an expendable culture that I think I'll experiment on. I'll be sure to post back on whether it yields a positive, neutral, or negative effect.


----------



## SutorS

I don't know if this is the right thread, but there was a good one on best foods for Isopods. Anyone tried Edamame beans? My dwarf whites go INSANE for them. So far the foods they seem to enjoy the most:
1. broccoli
2. edamame beans
3. old banana


----------



## Pumilo

SutorS said:


> I don't know if this is the right thread, but there was a good one on best foods for Isopods. Anyone tried Edamame beans? My dwarf whites go INSANE for them. So far the foods they seem to enjoy the most:
> 1. broccoli
> 2. edamame beans
> 3. old banana


Thanks, all input is welcome on this thread. I think you are referring to my sons thread, though. You should post over there, too. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/64919-great-isopod-woodlice-culture-foods.html


----------



## Chameleon84

I have to thank all that posted on here and Doug for getting me some starter cultures. My iso's are doing amazing. I constantly have to divide cultures and have seeded 6 new tanks in the last few weeks and still have plenty going. Great advice from a great board. Thanks again guys...


----------



## Grrrit

Hey doug, I recently got a plethora of springs and isopods. And I went about culturing then how you do, "to the T". Monday I set up the cultures and today, friday the ocean formula one, is getting white fuzzy molds. Could this be detrimental in any way? I appearantly over fed and am just curious about if you have ever has this happen.

Thanks for the walk-throughs, I can't explain how much they helped!


----------



## james67

they're actually eating the mold and not the flakes so no its not bad, its normal. just let it be. 

james


----------



## Edhurl

Pumilo said:


> That should work well if it's damp enough. Fresh leaves seem to take a while before they hold much moisture so make sure they are holding some moisture for humidity.


just started one, ill keep everyone posted on just leaf litter for rmedia


----------



## Pumilo

Chameleon84 said:


> I have to thank all that posted on here and Doug for getting me some starter cultures. My iso's are doing amazing. I constantly have to divide cultures and have seeded 6 new tanks in the last few weeks and still have plenty going. Great advice from a great board. Thanks again guys...


That's great! Glad you're doing so good with them!



Grrrit said:


> Hey doug, I recently got a plethora of springs and isopods. And I went about culturing then how you do, "to the T". Monday I set up the cultures and today, friday the ocean formula one, is getting white fuzzy molds. Could this be detrimental in any way? I appearantly over fed and am just curious about if you have ever has this happen.
> 
> Thanks for the walk-throughs, I can't explain how much they helped!





james67 said:


> they're actually eating the mold and not the flakes so no its not bad, its normal. just let it be.
> 
> james


Yes, you're going to get some mold and that's fine. Just wait till the mold is pretty much gone before you feed again. It shouldn't be a problem unless you feed so much that the mold goes out of control.


----------



## Grrrit

Alright, thanks fellas.


----------



## glass frog

so could i use the normal grey "pill bug" i haver around here as a clean up crew in a viv?


----------



## hypostatic

glass frog said:


> so could i use the normal grey "pill bug" i haver around here as a clean up crew in a viv?


The "giant orange" isopod that you see for sale on the boards is a variety of _Porcellio scaber_, also known as the common rough woodlouse, which is originally a European species (and is now found around the globe). This is a temperate species that you would be likely to find in your backyard, and is perfectly suitable for the viv. Porcellio scaber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "pill bugs" that you often find are a different species in the genus Armadillidium, and the species is probably _Armadillidium vulgare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_. I don't know how many people on the boards actually use this species, but I suspect that an individual of this species cleans just as well as the giant oranges. If I remember correctly however, I think the developmental progress of Armadillidium is very slow - I think it takes a few months for them to reach sexual maturity, which makes culturing the species impractical, especially compared to other species which reproduce much more rapidly.

Of course, if you were to take anything from your backyard you would have to make sure you don't inadvertently introduce anything detrimental by accident, such as snail/slug eggs, or pesticides.


----------



## Pumilo

glass frog said:


> so could i use the normal grey "pill bug" i haver around here as a clean up crew in a viv?





hypostatic said:


> The "giant orange" isopod that you see for sale on the boards is a variety of _Porcellio scaber_, also known as the common rough woodlouse, which is originally a European species (and is now found around the globe). This is a temperate species that you would be likely to find in your backyard, and is perfectly suitable for the viv. Porcellio scaber - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> The "pill bugs" that you often find are a different species in the genus Armadillidium, and the species is probably _Armadillidium vulgare - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia_. I don't know how many people on the boards actually use this species, but I suspect that an individual of this species cleans just as well as the giant oranges. If I remember correctly however, I think the developmental progress of Armadillidium is very slow - I think it takes a few months for them to reach sexual maturity, which makes culturing the species impractical, especially compared to other species which reproduce much more rapidly.
> 
> Of course, if you were to take anything from your backyard you would have to make sure you don't inadvertently introduce anything detrimental by accident, such as snail/slug eggs, or pesticides.


This study found that the females of Armadillidium vulgare first bred at 23 months of age. http://www.uea.ac.uk/~e325/J_Anim_Ecol_Hassall_Dangerfield_1990.pdf This would make culturing them inefficient at best.


----------



## hypostatic

Yikes!

On a related note, know any good protocols for cleaning isopods, so that they can be added to the viv without introducing anything unwanted in with them?

That way you could just collect a couple dozen Armadillium from your backyard. Or possibly start culturing another species of isopods.


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> Yikes!
> 
> On a related note, know any good protocols for cleaning isopods, so that they can be added to the viv without introducing anything unwanted in with them?
> 
> That way you could just collect a couple dozen Armadillium from your backyard. Or possibly start culturing another species of isopods.


Sorry, I do not.


----------



## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Yikes!
> 
> On a related note, know any good protocols for cleaning isopods, so that they can be added to the viv without introducing anything unwanted in with them?
> 
> That way you could just collect a couple dozen Armadillium from your backyard. Or possibly start culturing another species of isopods.


Autoclave them or serially culture them for several generations (each generation gets removed and set up into a new culture) given that some temperate zone isopods can take 15 months to reach sexual maturity, this can take a significant period of time. 

Ed


----------



## Judy S

since this may not be on topic...but it is "bugging" me...what are the larval stage that comes with the crickets?? Are they harmful?? How concerned should I be about them?? I have not seen any info before about them, so hopefully the question can be answered here. Thanks...Judy


----------



## Pumilo

Sorry Judy, no crickets even allowed into my house. I hate the inevitable escapees calling at 3 AM.


----------



## B-NICE

Just read the pm, doug. So I guess I souldnt put these into my viv. I cant get the pic up. For everyone else. I just found a lot of iso's under some cement bags in my backyard. I would like to put them in my viv.


----------



## Pumilo

B-NICE said:


> Just read the pm, doug. So I guess I souldnt put these into my viv. I cant get the pic up. For everyone else. I just found a lot of iso's under some cement bags in my backyard. I would like to put them in my viv.


Yeah, I wouldn't bother. It would take forever for reproduction and you are risking disease and contaminants. (pesticides etc)


----------



## B-NICE

there are no pesticides in my backyard but i may release them or just keep them and see what happens, but I wount put them in my tank. Side bar the springs in my pacman viv are going wild, they snack on dead crickets.


----------



## Judy S

bump...what ARE those creepy crawlers?? And so far, no escapees...two big tubs, tops, etc.--and they live in the bathroom...


----------



## glass frog

ok so i have a setup that is a mature and want to know if I build a couple cultures can I just take some weebeasties and put them in the cultures and expect anything to happen? what I can see a lot of are tiny and white. oh and there are no frogs in the setup so I am not taking food out of any frogs mouth if I do this.


----------



## hypostatic

Ed said:


> Autoclave them or serially culture them for several generations


Heh, the autoclave seems to be an answer to many of life's problems 



Pumilo said:


> Put more sugar in and they are back to stewing in a bowl of "prison wine".


So it's been about 2 weeks and I'd like to post some information about my "prison wine" experiment:

The experiment was conducted on a 32oz culture of Folsoma, cultured on charcoal. The yeast I used was Hodgson Mill Active Dry Yeast (I should also comment that the label says the yeast "expired" like a year ago). The culture is sealed and air/water-tight; the container has no micron filter for ventilation.

For the first week I added a small sprinkling of sugar along with my regular amount of yeast to see if it would cause any detrimental effects -- the springtails didn't seem to be hurt by it. For the second week I decided to overdo it and see what would happen. I added about a tablespoon of sugar along with the usual amount of yeast. So far, so good -- the culture has not crashed, and it seems like its growth rate is at least the same as before. This would have to be repeated with a control to determine how adding sugar compares to not adding sugar.


----------



## InHoc1855

How long before i should expect to see young giant oranges in my culture?

I just got 6 giant oranges over week ago and am completely knew to this. I placed them in a mix very similar to the one described by pumilo. I havnt noticed them eating much of either the carrot pieces or the fish food that i have put in. How long before they begin to lay eggs and then how long does it take for those eggs to hatch?


----------



## Pumilo

InHoc1855 said:


> How long before i should expect to see young giant oranges in my culture?
> 
> I just got 6 giant oranges over week ago and am completely knew to this. I placed them in a mix very similar to the one described by pumilo. I havnt noticed them eating much of either the carrot pieces or the fish food that i have put in. How long before they begin to lay eggs and then how long does it take for those eggs to hatch?


Isopods take much longer than springtails. For one thing it would depend on if your oranges are sexually mature. Just keep feeding them and eventually you'll start to see babies. Even if your's are sexually mature, it could be a month or two before you start to see much.


----------



## Grrrit

Doug, I think I thanked you before for the post. This thread eased my nerves into thinking I could accomplish culturing all of these awesome little bugs. Now that I've been through each step of the process with both the iso's and springs I thought I would thank you again. Haha truely helpful walkthrough (did I hear sticky) and thanks. I have some very happy pumilios now too btw


----------



## Pumilo

I just put together a thread on how to clean a mite infested culture. Here it is. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...clean-your-mite-contaminated-springtails.html


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## goof901

when you transfer isopods from the small container to the large one, do you just dump the whole thing in?


----------



## Broseph

Regarding the "prison wine" experiments.

I'm fairly new to this awesome (and expensive) hobby, but I've also tried adding a little sucrose to the yeast in my springtail cultures. I sprinkled just a few grains of table sugar on the larger pieces of charcoal in the culture, hoping to prolong time between feedings.

The only thing I've noticed is the sugared yeast takes on a darker brown color than the rest. I have no clue what this means, and I have not continued the experiments (mostly fearing ethanol/CO2 buildup).

Side note: this thread has been an invaluable resource for a noobie. Thanks Pumilo!


----------



## zer0zax

Thanks for such a great thread, and to everyone who posted questions and answers! Hopefully in a couple of years when I get my fish tanks set up I will be breeding an army of critters


----------



## frogparty

New favorite food for purple Isopods: overripe banana.


----------



## Pumilo

zer0zax said:


> Thanks for such a great thread, and to everyone who posted questions and answers! Hopefully in a couple of years when I get my fish tanks set up I will be breeding an army of critters


My army will annihilate your army!  http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77193-white-spots-my-wood-2.html#post683176


----------



## dtown

Pumilo said:


> *Springtail Culture*
> There are a million different ways to culture springtails. I am presenting only one method here, with a possible variation for the Huge Black Tomocerus. This is the method that works well for me. There are some other great methods out there if you want to experiment.
> I culture on charcoal but it cannot be properly shipped that way. I know people do anyway, but there is a large initial die off as the charcoal tumbles and crushes your bugs. I want you to be able to see your culture crawling with bugs NOW, not in a month. Therefore, I ship them out in a peat culture. Here is how we are going to transfer the peat culture to a charcoal culture.
> The following supplies will be needed.
> 1) We are going to use the large size Ziplock / King Soopers / Kroger brand container. It is the 76 oz. or the 9.5 cup size. It measures 11” x 7” x 3” tall. Shown in picture 1.
> 2) I like the Frontier or Cowboy brand of charcoal available from Lowes. Any hardwood, or lump, natural style charcoal will work, but it’s nice and cheap at Lowes. Shown in pictures 2 and 3. You can use any horticulture charcoal, or even aquarium carbon, but that gets expensive!
> 3) Food. We will be using Active Bakers Yeast or live bread yeast. Shown in pics 4 and 5) You can find that 2 lb. bag at Costco for about $3 or $4 making it very cheap!


Does it matter if it is flavored charcoal? ie mesquite??


----------



## Pumilo

dtown said:


> Does it matter if it is flavored charcoal? ie mesquite??


Mesquite is a hardwood. You are looking for real (not chopped and formed briquettes) lump, hardwood charcoal. Cowboy or Frontier from Lowe's work well.


----------



## frogparty

Or horticultural charcoal works very well too...


----------



## freaky_tah

Doug do you feed your isos anything in viv? I add mushrooms for the springtails but nothing specifically for the isos.


----------



## Pumilo

frogparty said:


> Or horticultural charcoal works very well too...


True dat. But I'm a cheapskate!



freaky_tah said:


> Doug do you feed your isos anything in viv? I add mushrooms for the springtails but nothing specifically for the isos.


Yes I do. I have my wife save veggie scraps and "veggies gone bad" (gives the frogs a thrill!), I cut up the jack o lantern at halloween and toss it in the freezer. Toss your apple core in there. All good stuff for your isopods and your springtails. Once my bugs are in the viv I do NOT use fish flake or dog food anymore for fear of vitamin sequestering. 
Of course keeping a nice deep layer of leaf litter goes a long way towards keeping that population up.


----------



## freaky_tah

Thanks! I actually just ran out of pumpkin, I wish I had lots more. The tank that is seeded with isos has a ton of leaf litter and when I poke around underneath I can always find a lot near the area where I first put em in. I'll need to remember to save my apple cores now and place pieces spread out so they hopefully start spreadin out too.


----------



## jacobi

Pumilo said:


> Yes I do. I have my wife save veggie scraps and "veggies gone bad" (gives the frogs a thrill!), I cut up the jack o lantern at halloween and toss it in the freezer. Toss your apple core in there. All good stuff for your isopods and your springtails. Once my bugs are in the viv I do NOT use fish flake or dog food anymore for fear of vitamin sequestering.
> Of course keeping a nice deep layer of leaf litter goes a long way towards keeping that population up.


Ever have any problems with pesticides on the veggies?


Jake


----------



## Pumilo

I do wash anything that would go in. Treat it the same as you would treat food you are going to eat yourself.


----------



## dtown

frogparty said:


> nice write up. I prefer a completely edible substrate for my woodlice culture, and have been using pressure cooked madrone bark with excellent results. I only feed vegetable scraps, and dump left over dusting calcium and vitamins into my cultures as well, which they relish( something that had been posted here previously that I was skeptical of, until I tried it)


Can you feed them fruit scraps... say a banana


----------



## Pumilo

dtown said:


> Can you feed them fruit scraps... say a banana


Busted!  You didn't read the thread or the linked threads. This was linked on the very first page. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/64919-great-isopod-woodlice-culture-foods.html Additionally there are several comments throughout the thread commenting on feeding various fruits and veggies.


----------



## goof901

Pumilo said:


> The more you start with, the faster you'll have a large, producing colony. I generally start mine with about 25. In some test runs starting with 50, it has definitely made a difference.
> In Markbudde's thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/46452-how-i-culture-woodlice-isopods.html he states that he started his example culture with only 4 adults!


would i be able to start a culture with 3 adults? cuz i got a 2 oz container of white isos and there's only 3 inside(yup i counted).


----------



## JPccusa

Nope... not with 3. Apparently 4 is the minimum required to start a culture.


----------



## goof901

i should clarify. i did NOT get that white isopod culture from Pumilo


----------



## Pumilo

goof901 said:


> would i be able to start a culture with 3 adults? cuz i got a 2 oz container of white isos and there's only 3 inside(yup i counted).


It will take a little longer, but chances are very good. There is a chart about odds of sexes depending on the number started with right here. Brooklyn Dart Frogs That shows a 75% chance with three. Additionally, it is likely that at least one is carrying babies now so that pushes the odds in your favor. One more thing is that they are masters of hiding. There is a very good chance you may have more than you think. A 1/2" strand of sphagnum could be hiding a dozen of them.


----------



## Pumilo

goof901 said:


> i should clarify. i did NOT get that white isopod culture from Pumilo


Thanks for clarifying that I don't send out cultures with only 3 bugs. Best of luck with them, I think you'll still be fine.


----------



## goof901

there's hope!!!! i was digging thru the isos culture and (i think) i saw a baby iso go back into the substrate. one other question tho, how much should i feed the culture?


----------



## Pumilo

goof901 said:


> there's hope!!!! i was digging thru the isos culture and (i think) i saw a baby iso go back into the substrate. one other question tho, how much should i feed the culture?


Not much at this time. Just a pinch and check it every 2 or 3 days until you get the feel of how much they can eat. Some molding over will happen and that's fine, but don't keep putting more food in if it is still all moldy. What till the mold clears and then feed again. You also want some leaves and maybe some cardboard in there for something to snack on. Soon enough you'll get the feel of how much they can eat in a week so you can skip to a weekly check and feeding. The biggest thing is not letting them go completely dry.


----------



## hypostatic

I wanted to post an update on the "prison wine" experiment:

So I've run out of yeast and I haven't gotten a chance to go to the store to get more. I decided to add just sugar (since I didn't have much else) to a freshly started culture of pink springtails. After 2-4 days I noticed TONS of baby springtails crawling around in the culture; I haven't seen my pink springtails bloom this quickly as of yet, so I'm thinking they must like sugar.


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## stu&shaz

Doug do we have a cut off high temperature that will inhibit springtail production,As i'm needing more cultures to feed our little ones i'm looking at using an airing cupboard,i have a couple of test cultures running,to see how they do,but thought it might be worth asking if your experiments have yeilded this info,and even an optimum temperature,as before, much thanks go to you for this thread,
regards
Stu


----------



## Pumilo

stu&shaz said:


> Doug do we have a cut off high temperature that will inhibit springtail production,As i'm needing more cultures to feed our little ones i'm looking at using an airing cupboard,i have a couple of test cultures running,to see how they do,but thought it might be worth asking if your experiments have yeilded this info,and even an optimum temperature,as before, much thanks go to you for this thread,
> regards
> Stu


I'm afraid not, Stu. I culture at typical frogroom temps. I can tell you that I left a bunch of assorted cultures upstairs when we went on vacation last summer. House got VERY Hot. Easily in the upper 90's. All cultures were still alive. I have discussed low temps with Ed and others. My basement can drop below 60 in the winter. Just about everything but Temperate White Springtails will slow to a standstill in those low temps.


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## frogparty

85F should boost production to about as high as its going to get.


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## stu&shaz

Pumilo said:


> I'm afraid not, Stu. I culture at typical frogroom temps. I can tell you that I left a bunch of assorted cultures upstairs when we went on vacation last summer. House got VERY Hot. Easily in the upper 90's. All cultures were still alive. I have discussed low temps with Ed and others. My basement can drop below 60 in the winter. Just about everything but Temperate White Springtails will slow to a standstill in those low temps.


thanks Doug at least that gives me a rough high temperature guide,that will be safe.Yeah i've seen some of the discussions about lower temps.
Frogparty so far i'm seeing 84F it might go higher due to our emersion heater also obtaining heat from a wood burner,i'll run these little test cultures for a while i think to see how things work out,my dwarf white iso and a little fast grey iso seem to do really well at the top of the room on top of the racks gaining extra heat from the lights by day,they really seem to love the warmth,so this little cupboard might be really useful,
thanks guys
Stu


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## pdfCrazy

I'm curius, since it seems production is increased in relation to temp (at least to a point) has anyone experimented with creating a temperature controlled closet, or maybe even one of the commercially available herp egg incubators? If so, I'd love to hear about it.


----------



## jpstod

My compost piles in Texas get mighty hot yet they are crawling with Isopods


----------



## Pumilo

I have been experimenting with a new substrate mix for my springtails and having really great results. Motydesign challenged me to try his substrate in a PM after this thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/78285-pink-springs.html Now what I'm doing is not quite the same but is inspired by Moty. I'm simply using a mixture of Live Oak leaf litter and coco fiber. I am finding that the Pink springtails can grow and reproduce faster. They can get to population densities much higher than they could on straight coco fiber or coco and peat. On coco or coco/peat mixture, the pinks never utilized more than the top 3/4" of the substrate. With the leaf litter and coco, they can utilize the entire substrate because the live oak makes lots of gaps and voids. You want to use a LOT of live oak to do this. Really, the coco is only in there to hold some moisture. I'm using maybe 1/4 or 1/3 coco fiber and the rest is Live Oak leaf litter. Don't crush it, leave it whole for better voids.
It worked so well I had to try it on White Temperates. Wow did they explode! Not only do the grow and reproduce faster than on other substrates I've tried, I swear they get bigger than before!
Just wanted to report this and maybe hear how it is working for you. Don't forget to sterilize it first or you'll bring a ton of mites in!

Thanks Motydesign!


----------



## JPccusa

To separate springs from the substrate, you used to flood the charcoal. Can you still do that with the new substrate, or how do you separate them?


----------



## Pumilo

JPccusa said:


> To separate springs from the substrate, you used to flood the charcoal. Can you still do that with the new substrate, or how do you separate them?


Different methods have their pluses and minuses. The charcoal is still wonderful for the ease of collection. With a leaf litter substrate you can throw a handful straight in the viv. Alternatively, you can store a 4" by 4" block of tree fern panel (sterilized) inside your culture, just sitting on top. When you need springtails, pull it out and whack it pretty aggressively with a spoon or butter knife handle and watch the hundreds of springtails come pouring out into your collection cup. (Thanks to James67 and Michael for sharing this harvesting method)


----------



## pdfCrazy

I havnt went for the charcoal method yet, although harvestign\\ng this way seems super simple. After picking up Pink and Temperate springs from Doug, I set them up in a modiified ABG mix. OMG have they exploded in less than a month. My mix consists of 1 part peat moss, 1 part spagnum, 1 part fir bark, 1 part cypress mulch, 1 part crumbled tree fern root, 2 parts compressed coco coir, 1 part coco fiber mat (chopped up into poeces) and 2 parts live aok/magnolia. Yes, that is ALOT of mix. But it has worked SO well! As long as the mix is not compressed and left "fluffy" with voids, I find springs 2 inches deep. I'm feeding fish flake, brewers yeast, and occasionaly a peice of mushroom or potato (pre-rotted in the fridge for weeks). Now....I have YET to get my thumbs yet (vanzo's) so I havnt harvested yet. Thats the only difficulty I see. But I've got ideas on this, I'll let you know how that goes soon.


----------



## Pumilo

pdfCrazy said:


> I havnt went for the charcoal method yet, although harvestign\\ng this way seems super simple. After picking up Pink and Temperate springs from Doug, I set them up in a modiified ABG mix. OMG have they exploded in less than a month. My mix consists of 1 part peat moss, 1 part spagnum, 1 part fir bark, 1 part cypress mulch, 1 part crumbled tree fern root, 2 parts compressed coco coir, 1 part coco fiber mat (chopped up into poeces) and 2 parts live aok/magnolia. Yes, that is ALOT of mix. But it has worked SO well! As long as the mix is not compressed and left "fluffy" with voids, I find springs 2 inches deep. I'm feeding fish flake, brewers yeast, and occasionaly a peice of mushroom or potato (pre-rotted in the fridge for weeks). Now....I have YET to get my thumbs yet (vanzo's) so I havnt harvested yet. Thats the only difficulty I see. But I've got ideas on this, I'll let you know how that goes soon.


Try the 4" chunk of tree fern. I'll give you a piece of this back if you want to try it. It works great.


----------



## pdfCrazy

I actually found some 10-12 year old chunks of tree fern panel I had stashed away recently. Perfect size to, little 3 x 4 inche pieces. So, I just place it on top of the culture and keep it moist and they will crawl up through it right? You don't use any food on it to "pull" them up through it? Then just whack it out when you need them. Easy enough.


----------



## Pumilo

pdfCrazy said:


> I actually found some 10-12 year old chunks of tree fern panel I had stashed away recently. Perfect size to, little 3 x 4 inche pieces. So, I just place it on top of the culture and keep it moist and they will crawl up through it right? You don't use any food on it to "pull" them up through it? Then just whack it out when you need them. Easy enough.


Don't forget to boil them first Chris. Yes, store it sitting on top of the substrate at all times so it is always "loaded" when you need it. You don't have to put any food on it as they just really seem to like the tree fern panels. You will get a heavier load though, if you keep a little yeast on it and mist the yeast so some seeps down into the panel.


----------



## motydesign

Good to know this is producing for you well! i have about 8-10 cultures on this now, problem is i have more pinks than i know what to do with... if i fed my pumilios these they'd never take calc covered flies :/. however the froglets love chasing them around the grow out tank 

on average i say it takes about 2-3 months before the results REALLY show


----------



## hypostatic

So it is confirmed that adding live leaf litter into the springtail cultures increases the production in both pinks and whites?

And the leaf litter is boiled for sterilization prior to its addition to the culture? Are they still considered live after being sterilized?

And now that this phenomenon has been better documented, what do you hypothesize is the cause to the increase in production in the springtails? Could it be that adding leaves simply adds another food source for the springtails? For example the leaves are more easily broken down by bacteria than wood/charcoal, so the bacteria that the springtails feed on don't get depleted as rapidly?


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> So it is confirmed that adding live leaf litter into the springtail cultures increases the production in both pinks and whites?
> 
> And the leaf litter is boiled for sterilization prior to its addition to the culture? Are they still considered live after being sterilized?
> 
> And now that this phenomenon has been better documented, what do you hypothesize is the cause to the increase in production in the springtails? Could it be that adding leaves simply adds another food source for the springtails? For example the leaves are more easily broken down by bacteria than wood/charcoal, so the bacteria that the springtails feed on don't get depleted as rapidly?


It has increased my production. Live Oak is the type of leaf litter I used. Live Oak is a type, it doesn't mean it is actually alive. You want to use brown, dead, fallen leaves just like with leaf litter.
I saw results VERY quickly, in my opinion, too quickly to be decomposing leaves. I believe is may have more to do with much more surface area because of all the voids and perhaps better aerated conditions because of all the voids.


----------



## hypostatic

So is it just oak, or do you think any leaf litter would yield the same results?

How quickly are we talking about? And these results were seen in ventilated cultures?


----------



## Pumilo

hypostatic said:


> So is it just oak, or do you think any leaf litter would yield the same results?
> 
> How quickly are we talking about? And these results were seen in ventilated cultures?


I've only experimented with the Live Oak at this point. The stiffer leaves help create more voids. 
I could tell they were producing better and faster after only 2 or 3 weeks.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Doug, the cultures I received from you with the Live Oak are doing great. At first it looks like there`s not many in there, but look under one of those leaves and there`s 100`s of them. I agree, the spaces in between those leaves are the key.

John


----------



## goof901

would hot glue work to glue the .3 micron filters to the top?


----------



## Pumilo

goof901 said:


> would hot glue work to glue the .3 micron filters to the top?


Absolutely. That is what I use. I tried silicone but it eventually peels off the plastic.


----------



## pdfCrazy

Just outta curiosity...and to say I did, I set up a colony of pinks and temperate whites, but instead of using live oak and/or magnolia (I'm out) I figured it couldnt hurt to try local leaves...that is before they are all gone now that spring is here. So I gathered up a bunch of cottonwood and maplewood leaves, and bioled them. So far so good. I don't expect these leaves to last anywhere near as long as the live oak which is no doubt the best option...but hey, you can't beat free. I'll let you know.


----------



## motydesign

i really have doubts it has anything to do with the type of leaf (live oak is native here, so free leaf litter for bugs is GOOD!) i am willing to bet my collection is mostly just available space


----------



## goof901

the leaf litter definitely helps a lot. im using it in my backup 16 oz culture and after 2 days,i have seen tons of baby springs.


----------



## Pumilo

motydesign said:


> i really have doubts it has anything to do with the type of leaf (live oak is native here, so free leaf litter for bugs is GOOD!) i am willing to bet my collection is mostly just available space


Try enough Moty, but I think that the stiffness/thickness of the live oak helps to make that surface area and voids for more oxygen down in the culture. Softer leaves like the Red Oak that's all over my backyard quickly softens and the voids are gone. So something like Magnolia should work just as well but very thin leaves like Aspen, Red Oak, and Maple, might break down too quickly to see the same benefits. A mix might work nicely as the leaves that break down faster could be another source of nutrition.


----------



## motydesign

motydesign said:


> i really have doubts it has anything to do with the type of leaf (live oak is native here, so free leaf litter for bugs is GOOD!) i am willing to bet my collection is mostly just available space


agreed doug, i was meaning the leaf type has little to do with the reproduction, but yes different leaves that are made to hold up to a moist environment will do much better over long term.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Alrighty then, this was a good long read. Ed how much could tocopherols effect my iso's? As I mentioned in the other thread, I save my excess vit/min supplement and give it to my isos. I never feed isos to my frogs, I only use my cultures to seed my vivs. Once in a while I may put a supplemental seeding in a viv, but never with the exclusive purpose of feeding the frogs.


----------



## Roadkillstewie

...what about holly leaves, aside from the thorn aspect.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Holly leaves are sligtly toxic

Holly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## nonliteral

Are there any issues with photinia (Photinia v.'fraseri') leaves for use in food cultures? I got into this about two months too late this year to find I needed some leaves from the live oaks and magnolias across the street


----------



## Ed

nonliteral said:


> Are there any issues with photinia (Photinia v.'fraseri') leaves for use in food cultures? I got into this about two months too late this year to find I needed some leaves from the live oaks and magnolias across the street


A number of them are listed as toxic to ruminants and people, but whether that translates over to the frogs via feeders is a good guess. 

Ed


----------



## nonliteral

Thanks Ed; sounds safest to avoid them then.


----------



## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Alrighty then, this was a good long read. Ed how much could tocopherols effect my iso's? As I mentioned in the other thread, I save my excess vit/min supplement and give it to my isos. I never feed isos to my frogs, I only use my cultures to seed my vivs. Once in a while I may put a supplemental seeding in a viv, but never with the exclusive purpose of feeding the frogs.


They don't affect the isopods since the isopods want the higher levels... If they are fed seperately and not dusted then it shouldn't be an issue. The main concern would be if you were using cultures fed with that vitamin-mineral mix as a routine feeder since the high levels of vitamin E could disrupt uptake of vitamin A and D3. Since you are just using them for seeding, it shouldn't be an issue. 

Ed


----------



## Colleen53

My grey isopods are eating/chewing my wandering jew plants. These plants mind you are growing up, not on the ground. Is this common? I thought isopods were janitors and cleaned up all the stuff on the floor/ground which were rotting,etc.


----------



## Pumilo

Colleen53 said:


> My grey isopods are eating/chewing my wandering jew plants. These plants mind you are growing up, not on the ground. Is this common? I thought isopods were janitors and cleaned up all the stuff on the floor/ground which were rotting,etc.


That's the first I've heard of the grays doing that. I have seen it with the oranges if they hit high enough populations. Do you have a good, thick base of leaf litter in the viv? That would give them a possibly more desirable food source. You could also just feed the viv some veggie scraps now and then. They would certainly prefer that as a food source.


----------



## Ed

Terrestrial isopods also prefer decomposing leaves to live leaves since the areas where microbial decomposition is occuring on the leaves are much more easily digested as well as being more nutritious.... 

I would expect that either they are feeding on damaged portions of the leaves (could be due to mechanical or infection) and/or there is some limiting nutrient that they are missing as part of thier regular food sources. 

Ed


----------



## Colleen53

Thanks Doug for that speedy reply!! I am noticing them with my froglet tank which is only a 7 gallon tank. I do have leaf litter in there. I really could care less about the wandering jew plant, but didn't want that to happen to my other vivaruims that do have beautiful plants. I will add some pumpkin pieces into the viv then. I can't tell you how much they love pumpkin and my springtails go nuts on it too.


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## Colleen53

Ed said:


> Terrestrial isopods also prefer decomposing leaves to live leaves since the areas where microbial decomposition is occuring on the leaves are much more easily digested as well as being more nutritious....
> 
> I would expect that either they are feeding on damaged portions of the leaves (could be due to mechanical or infection) and/or there is some limiting nutrient that they are missing as part of thier regular food sources.
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed,

The isopods MAY be lacking nutients. The plant (wandering jew) is going nuts in the tank. I noticed the isopods on the leaves when I was trimming the top leaves. The leaves are growing out of the tank. Can't kill wandering jew!!!!


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## stu&shaz

Doug,springtails may well produce a breeding inhibitor,so we "wash",split our cultures before this happens.If i have left a culture too long,and this inhibitor has been activated,maybe not the right word,and i harvest out alive adult spring to start a new culture,will this inhibitor still be active and suppress breeding in the new culture? Driven by observation this question,some of my spring cultures seem to rocket away really quick others seem to be much slower to get away,hence the question as to a plausable cause,fortunately we are not short as always trying to hone the method
thankyou,i guess i don't need to tell you again what a help this thread has been,damn i have just done it again
best
Stu


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## hypostatic

I don't remember where I read it exactly, but the springtails supposedly release a hormone into the substrate that inhibits growth/reproduction which accumulates over time and will slow production substantially in older cultures. 

A similar thing happens with _C. elegans_ (a model organism I work with) where they release a hormone into the substrate and if the hormone reaches a critical threshold level adults will stop laying eggs and young enough animals will go into a starvation-resistant stage (the hormone accumulates high enough when the population density is very high and the animals are overcrowded, which usually leads to the depletion of the food source)

So if you start a new culture with the old substrate you would still be getting these inhibitory factors. I don't think washing the substrate would be enough to eliminate them. I've been boiling my charcoal when I have been reusing it, but I'm not completely sure that this gets rid of the hormones either.


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## Pumilo

stu&shaz said:


> Doug,springtails may well produce a breeding inhibitor,so we "wash",split our cultures before this happens.If i have left a culture too long,and this inhibitor has been activated,maybe not the right word,and i harvest out alive adult spring to start a new culture,will this inhibitor still be active and suppress breeding in the new culture? Driven by observation this question,some of my spring cultures seem to rocket away really quick others seem to be much slower to get away,hence the question as to a plausable cause,fortunately we are not short as always trying to hone the method
> thankyou,i guess i don't need to tell you again what a help this thread has been,damn i have just done it again
> best
> Stu


The hormone they release should be just in the substrate so harvesting the adults to start a new one should work just fine. I sometimes see new cultures take off like gangbusters and other new cultures that just never seem to do well. I have noticed it mostly with White Temperate springtails. That's a good reason to always run multiple cultures.


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## Ed

stu&shaz said:


> Doug,springtails may well produce a breeding inhibitor,so we "wash",split our cultures before this happens.If i have left a culture too long,and this inhibitor has been activated,maybe not the right word,and i harvest out alive adult spring to start a new culture,will this inhibitor still be active and suppress breeding in the new culture? Driven by observation this question,some of my spring cultures seem to rocket away really quick others seem to be much slower to get away,hence the question as to a plausable cause,fortunately we are not short as always trying to hone the method
> thankyou,i guess i don't need to tell you again what a help this thread has been,damn i have just done it again
> best
> Stu


It depends on the species of springtail you are culturing. I haven't seen anything on pheromonal inhibition of Folsomia candida but it is known to occur in Sinella (see JSTOR: Transactions of the American Microscopical Society, Vol. 90, No. 3 (Jul., 1971), pp. 314-325) 

Ed


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## stu&shaz

Ed said:


> It depends on the species of springtail you are culturing. I haven't seen anything on pheromonal inhibition of Folsomia candida but it is known to occur in Sinella (see JSTOR: Transactions of the American Microscopical Society, Vol. 90, No. 3 (Jul., 1971), pp. 314-325)
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed,
i think we are culturing a siera sp from brazil,but, I'm not utterly sure.Our starter came from another dart keeper here,they seem to be more stable for us personally than Folsomia candida,they have been a godsend to us.That said,we are learning and honing our methods all the time so maybe now would be a good time to try with F. candida again. Our results may well be better now for us
thankyou
regards
Stu


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## Ed

Folsomia like it cooler and they do need a source of calcium for optimal growth but they should be easy to establish and culture. Just keep in mind that they can be invasive and get into other nearby cultures. 

Ed


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## Edhurl

I have a powdered 12 clay mix that i sprinkle in and around my feeding stations, was curious if it might be beneficial to sprinkle it into cultures also?


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## Ed

I have significant doubts about it's usefulness simply sprinkled around the feeding stations the frog's are only going to contact limited amounts of it at best (since they will feed on the flies in the feeding stations and won't ingest it while feeding on microfauna in the tank ( due to the limited distribution).. Doing it this way also doesn't benefit the microfauna as much since you don't have the best zone of activity which is where a clay substrate and leaf litter come into contact where some of the microfauna can work undisturbed. Using it in that method is probably better than nothing but it's benefit is going to be totally swamped out by dusting the feeders with a good supplement. 

Adding it to the cultures will give some calcium but you can do better by simply using some ground up cuttle bone, calcium citrate tablets, or even a calcium supplement that doesn't contain vitamins.... 

Ed


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## Edhurl

Will they not absorb through their skin? Or was i misinformed?


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## stu&shaz

Ed said:


> Folsomia like it cooler and they do need a source of calcium for optimal growth but they should be easy to establish and culture. Just keep in mind that they can be invasive and get into other nearby cultures.
> 
> Ed


Ed a great tip,one somehow i was unaware of as far as culturing springtails go,although it seems totally logical that a source of Ca would be beneficial.Would a bit of Ca be useful to most springtail species' monocultures? Could i use roasted eggshell .We have ducks so organic eggshell are available,i use a bit in our iso cultures,roasted so no risk of say salmonella being passed down the chain
thankyou
Stu


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## Ed

Edhurl said:


> Will they not absorb through their skin? Or was i misinformed?


If there are free calcium ions they can uptake them but sprinking the clay onto the substrate does not provide the conditions that are conducive to calcium uptake through the skin. A solid bed of clay that the frog can posturally place the drinking patch against (solid bed..) is what is needed since the humic acids found in leaf litter (and what are going to quickly contact the clay) render the calcium immobile. Sitting in it with an upright posture feeding or standing up to reach prey doesn't place the appropriate skin areas in contact with the clay. 
If your going to use it, you should work the clay so it has structure and make areas of no leaf litter that the frog can contact and sit on as they choose. 

The main uptake is going to be through ingestion which should be adequately covered by dusting supplements... 

Ed


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## Ed

stu&shaz said:


> Ed a great tip,one somehow i was unaware of as far as culturing springtails go,although it seems totally logical that a source of Ca would be beneficial.Would a bit of Ca be useful to most springtail species' monocultures? Could i use roasted eggshell .We have ducks so organic eggshell are available,i use a bit in our iso cultures,roasted so no risk of say salmonella being passed down the chain
> thankyou
> Stu


If your willing to powder the shells, then yes it is fine to use. I would supplement all springtails and isopods with a small amount of calcium carbonate or citrate. 

Ed


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## stu&shaz

Ed said:


> If your willing to powder the shells, then yes it is fine to use. I would supplement all springtails and isopods with a small amount of calcium carbonate or citrate.
> 
> Ed


Thankyou Ed your patience with me is wonderful
regards
Stu


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## fishguyturnedfrog

Thanks for this. About a month ago I got a free small starter culture of dwarf grey isos which only contained 4-5. I used the shredded corrugation and live oak leaves in an almost air tight glad container. I went through everything today and only found 5 adults and 1 baby. I was thinking maybe the container was too big and they're not finding each other so I put them into a small solo cup with lid. Will this be better to start and try and get more?

I also found 5-6 hard, small yellowish balls in there also. Are these eggs?


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## Ed

No they are not eggs, in terrestrial isopods the eggs and newly hatched juveniles are carried around in a structure called a marsupium. This is one of the reasons you may not be seeing eggs or newly hatched juveniles. Other possible options are the substrate is too dry, some of the juveniles are escaping (they are very tiny), or there isn't enough calcium for the juveniles to survive. 

Ed


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## fishguyturnedfrog

The cardboard is pretty wet all the way through. From reading this more in depth, probably too wet. Possible that the small ones are getting out but the lid is pretty darn tight on there. Almost air tight. As far as calcium, I've been throwing pieces of egg shell in there. I micowave the shell for about 30 seconds then crush it up in my hand. Other feedings are with fish food that I use for my salt water fish. I use Rapashy calcium plus for my FF dusting, should I add a pinch or 2 in there to help with calcium?


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## Ed

fishguyturnedfrog said:


> The cardboard is pretty wet all the way through. From reading this more in depth, probably too wet. Possible that the small ones are getting out but the lid is pretty darn tight on there. Almost air tight. As far as calcium, I've been throwing pieces of egg shell in there. I micowave the shell for about 30 seconds then crush it up in my hand. Other feedings are with fish food that I use for my salt water fish. I use Rapashy calcium plus for my FF dusting, should I add a pinch or 2 in there to help with calcium?


If your adding fish flakes then your probably adding enough calcium. If your going to add egg shell, you should break it up further so they can ingest it.. If it is too wet the juveniles can also get trapped by drops and die. 
Isopods have a much longer life cycle than fruit flies do so it take a lot longer for a culture to begin to really take off. Think multiple months... 

Ed


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## kingfisherfleshy

Is it okay to boil in tap water so long as we use a quality de contaminator like "Prime"?

Otherwise I have to make an R/O run to the university tomorrow - was just hoping to get some work done tonight on the frog rack.

Thanks


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## Pumilo

kingfisherfleshy said:


> Is it okay to boil in tap water so long as we use a quality de contaminator like "Prime"?
> 
> Otherwise I have to make an R/O run to the university tomorrow - was just hoping to get some work done tonight on the frog rack.
> 
> Thanks


Yes, I boil in tap water all the time. I don't bother with Prime/DeClor. The amount of Chlorine/Cloromines left behind on a wet leaf is extremely small.


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## kingfisherfleshy

Sweet - even for charcoal though?


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## Pumilo

Yes xxxxxxxx


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## miko12

Has anyone used coffee grounds for culturing isopods or springtails?


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## Pumilo

miko12 said:


> Has anyone used coffee grounds for culturing isopods or springtails?


I have not tried coffee grounds. That may be worth trying. My 5th grade science teacher taught me to culture earthworms for fishing, using coffee grounds and cornmeal.


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## johntaylor115

Wow!!! Thanks for the information.


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## Tinctoc

Pumilo said:


> I have not tried coffee grounds. That may be worth trying. My 5th grade science teacher taught me to culture earthworms for fishing, using coffee grounds and cornmeal.


And just when you thought springtails were were bouncy little bugs...you give them coffee... 
haha, I couldn't resist.


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## topart

Great information for us new folks. When will you have isopods for sale?


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## jejton

I've thrown some uncooked ( but rinsed ) rice into my orange isopod cultures and they go after it pretty fast. Pretty fun to watch a 1/8" pillbug carry a rice kernel almost its size.


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## samsffr

That is the kind of info I can really use!
Thanks Doug!


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## vivbulider

I'm not reading through all 40 pages but I was wondering if you can culture multiple kinds of isos and springs in the same culture?


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## radiata

vivbulider said:


> I'm not reading through all 40 pages but I was wondering if you can culture multiple kinds of isos and springs in the same culture?


No. Mixing one Iso species with other Iso species or mixing one Springtail species with other Springtail species will eventually result in a demonstration of Charles Darwin's "survival of the fittest".

That said, most of my Iso cultures are infected with some Springtails.


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## Shinosuke

vivbulider said:


> I'm not reading through all 40 pages but I was wondering if you can culture multiple kinds of isos and springs in the same culture?


If you have a separate question it's usually best to start a new thread if you can't find an answer via searching.

But, in short, it's best to not try it. Usually one kind of bug will outcompete the rest and it becomes a 1 bug culture.


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## k5MOW

Great info!!!!!!


Roger


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## Dendrobait

I completely dropped whites for silvers. Run them solo or with dwarf grey and dwarf white isos. They are so much more productive which is important if you have limited space.

I find supermarket young coconuts work great after you consume the meat.You can chop them into chunks to mix with your leaves...or in my case I find I do well enough with coconut chunks, brown paper and cardboard, and the like. You can put halves or coconuts with a hole in the top into bigger cultures and later the inside will be filled with springs. 

I dont worry about mites. Baby pumilio love them! I actually find my cultures tend to outcompete mites...


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## Pumilo

Dendrobait said:


> I completely dropped whites for silvers. Run them solo or with dwarf grey and dwarf white isos. They are so much more productive which is important if you have limited space.


Agreed 100%, I did the same thing.


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## robthefrogman

Thanks Doug using your info and the iso's and springs are flourishing nicely....


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## pdfCrazy

Bump for a really good thread


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## FreddyG

I used flake fish food for my Springtails and they probably doubled within a few weeks


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## CrazyDart

FreddyG said:


> I used flake fish food for my Springtails and they probably doubled within a few weeks


Don't use too much or it causes the culture to stink


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## Jeri

Thanks for all great information in this thread, answered a lot of my questions.


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## harrisbt

Who out there cultures their isos on chunky bark bits like palm, coco husk, and madrona mentioned earlier. Anyone tried it and ditched the method? Switched to bark and stuck with it?

Still giddy about Doug's return to the boards! After a 2 year hiatus, I'm back too, and looking to get my bugs back up and running before getting back into forgers!


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## jarteta97

Welcome back! I'm back after a 2 year hiatus too, so much so that I didn't even know Doug went on. I've still got springtails going, but my isopods crashed a while ago, so they're on my list. Nice to see another NC frogger who's active as well. I'm at UNC, but travel home to Wake Forest on weekends.


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## puffy_sanchez

Would Exo Terra Plantation Soil work as a substrate for culturing isopods along with leaf litter? I just don't currently have any ABG mix.

Thanks in advance.


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## Pumilo

puffy_sanchez said:


> Would Exo Terra Plantation Soil work as a substrate for culturing isopods along with leaf litter? I just don't currently have any ABG mix.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Any more I use primarily leaf litter. I add just enough absorbent material to hold water. I've used:
75% or 80% leaf litter with 20 or 25% coco.
75% or 80% leaf litter with 20 or 25% ABG mix.
75% or 80% leaf litter with 20 or 25% peat moss.
My absolute favorite?
1/2" of my calcium bearing clay substrate on the bottom. Moisten it and press it down. Smear the walls of the culture container with wet, calcium bearing clay substrate, and add enough leaf litter to fill it up. Over time, you check the clay on the wall. If it's damp, your moisture level is good. If the clay is starting to dry, it needs more moisture. 

I am completely unfamiliar with Exo Terra Plantation Soil, but if your mix is predominately lightly hand crushed leaf litter, you only need the Exo to hold water, so it should be fine. The leaf litter prevents compaction, rather than the ABG mix (or other moisture holding material).


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