# Frogger Respect



## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

RESPECT!!! Show it, give it, earn it, live it!

Hi, My name is Crystal and I have been into PDF's for a little over 3 yrs now. I have been keeping herps of all kinds for over 10 yrs. I have been wanting to address an issue but wasn't sure how I to do so, but the forward approach is sometimes the best approach. 

I would have to say that the majority of us on this board and others like it, are here for the love we have for our frogs and the desire to attain and share knowledge and experience. I for one am grateful for the many years of experience that some of you have shared with me personally and the community as a whole. 

There will always be noobs here, looking for answers, asking the same questions 10 different ways and repeating mistakes that others have made. Also, sadly, there will always be those who are in it for the money (not sure who made their 1st million in darts but...) breeding frogs for profit and not caring about the people they come in contact with. People who have no respect for the people they are doing business with and possible the frogs they keep.
Now I do not disagree with will dart frog sellers, don't get me wrong. There are several reputable breeds on this forum, who I would gladly support and purchase frogs from. Making money is not a bad thing, and I wouldn't expect any less from breeders that put their time and effort into the care and well being of these frogs, to earn a profit for their time and energy. 

My biggest concern is people, new and not so new, do your homework. Research those who you are getting frogs from. You owe it to yourself, the community, and the frogs you keep to ask around about the people you are doing business with. Just because they are at a show or have the money to attain a large quantity of frogs doesn't mean they have your or the frogs best interest in mind when they sell you a frog. I have seen many threads about bad breeders, sick frogs, etc. 

I myself recently was burned in a frog deal. I was on a list with a local breeder for an awesome froglet. When the time came I was not prepared to have a froglet and was looking for adult frogs...so I offered the deal to someone (I will call this person X) whom I knew in the local frog community. I at the time I thought highly of them and wanted to pass on a good deal. I was then offered 4 adult frogs for free from the orig. seller due to a relocation. I gratefully accepted his offer but then was unable to secure a pick up time due to conflicting schedules. So I asked X if they could pick them up and I would split the adult free frogs with them 2 and 2. Unfortunately I never got my adult frogs, X kept all adult frogs for themselves and tried to make me believe that the frogs I was getting were from the orig. seller. When I called them out on it their response was "you got two free...I don't see I problem". The over all problem is lies and selfishness. Now it could have been worse and I am grateful that my frogs are doing well and I was able to find out the came from a reputable breeder. I, however, do not like being taken advantage of. This is a reminder to all of us, respect is a two way street...if you can't give it don't expect to get it. 

****I would like to thank those who encouraged me through this process and to my baby frogs daddy ( you know who you are)  for raising and caring for beautiful healthy frogs.


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## orin (Sep 8, 2013)

So you got 2 free frogs but person X gave you a different set of free frogs they had spare?


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Who was frogger X, I think this kind of information needs to be shared.


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## simonphelps (May 29, 2012)

I don't think you would be allowed to share who "frogger X" is because that is what feedback is for. (am I right here...?)I would imagine if any names are put down this post will be deleted. 

ON the other hand if someone is worried they are buying from "frogger X" and wants to make sure they are a honorable person I dont think it would hurt to make PM inquiries and do their homework on who they are buying from.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand...
X kept all 4 adult frogs from the original breeder and then gave you 2 frog(lets?) from an entirely different breeder? Were they even the same morph of frog?

If X is someone on this board, please pm me the Id...doesn't sound like someone I'd like to do business with down the road.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

PM sent to find out the identity of Frogger X.
I just want to make sure I never have any dealings with this shady individual.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I'm slightly confused too, but If I understood this right they picked up the 4 adults, and were going to get to keep 2 just for picking them up (You're nicer then I am), and then instead of giving you 2 of those adult frogs, they gave you 2 froglets?...I guess from another breeder? Is that right?

If so that is crappy... Adult frogs sell for more, and well there is the time waiting for froglets to grow up so they can breed, and even if they did give you 2 frogs, I assume of the species/morph you wanted but kept the 2 adults they were supposed to give you... Ya that is crappy.

If someone is going to give me 2 free frogs just for picking up some frogs, I'm going to make dang sure they get the 2 frogs they are supposed to get, not subsitute froglets (Assuming I understood this all correctly)


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## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

That's a lowdown selfish move.
I'm trying to get local people into the hobby. 
I'm still getting established so I don't have a ton of stuff, but i have made it a point to be generous. Not so that I can feel high and mighty, but because I believe "he who seeks his own life shall lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it". 
I'm a firm believer in the universal principle that giving/being generous makes a world of difference. It all comes down to caring about others around you. 

OP, thank you for sharing. It's a good reminder to all of us to be fair and honest in our dealings. 

Personally, I would tell frogger X why what they did was wrong, and harmful to the community, and if they refused to listen,
I would warn the local community.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

X kept the adult frogs for breeding, and have me froglets of the same morph from another breeder they recently bought. I am sure no one loves the waiting process for breeding, but still. The sad thing was they sent me pix of the frogs when they picked them up and then gave me the others trying to pass them off as the orig. Frogs. Well o take tons of pix of my frogs and realized quickly the patterns were obviously different. I called them out on it and the response was that I got 2 free frogs so what's the problem.......


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

rain dart said:


> X kept the adult frogs for breeding, and have me froglets of the same morph from another breeder they recently bought. I am sure no one loves the waiting process for breeding, but still. The sad thing was they sent me pix of the frogs when they picked them up and then gave me the others trying to pass them off as the orig. Frogs. Well o take tons of pix of my frogs and realized quickly the patterns were obviously different. I called them out on it and the response was that I got 2 free frogs so what's the problem.......


If you ask me...this is more than a lack of respect. If the original breeder intended for those frogs to go to you, and you made a deal that x was to pick them up and give you two, and he gave you other frogs instead...it's nothing short of theft.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

I always believe there are two sides to a story, and it does seem like you got a deal either way. You were on a list to get a frog, and when it came time you were not able to get the frog so you passed it to someone else, who I assume bought the frog that was meant for you and then also picked up four frogs for free. So in the end you got two frogs for free and didn’t have to do anything. I need some free frogs.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Tincman said:


> In my opinion a "half measure" is allowing a guy you know on multiple occasions to be less then fair to customers to continue to use your site, yet agree with customers when they call to complain about him


And Dendroboard hasn't done the exact same thing with Taron Langhover?????


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Yes I passed this deal to X, because I was grateful for their advice and such, I though Why not help out someone else. Had I gone and picked up the frogs X would have ended up with 1 froglet that i was going to turn around and sell him, instead (to their benefit) he picked up and bought almost an entire collection an f1 froglet and 4 free frogs. 

I was already contacted by X today saying he was doing me a favor. 
BUt really I could have pasted this on to anyone one I know locally of passed it up altogether, then he wouldn't have any "great deals" on the frogs. I am not trying to be mean, but in all accounts I was jipped. I also kept all of our correspondence.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

See I was under the impression we help each other out and that is what I was trying to do. The reason I passed on this deal (and in the minds of some passed on all of the spoils and am lucky to get anything) was to thank and help out a fellow frogger. And trust me I am grateful for the frogs I got, I know that this person could have not given me anything. I was very grateful in the past for frogger x, but not happy about *this* transaction. 

But am I wrong in feeling scammed? Am I wrong that what I was trying to do as a kind gesture was thrown in my face and told to be happy with anything I got? This thread is about respect. 

Respect to not lie and say here are the frogs that were free, when they were clearly not, respect to man up and say, even if I don't agree, before I gave the deal to the that no they didn't want to share frogs, or instead wanted to keep all the adults and give me babies. 


****FYI they received *4* adult green sips, I received 2 three month old g. sips. But maybe I should be a good girl, keep quite and be thankful for getting anything.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

rain dart said:


> See I was under the impression we help each other out and that is what I was trying to do. The reason I passed on this deal (and in the minds of some passed on all of the spoils and am lucky to get anything) was to thank and help out a fellow frogger. And trust me I am grateful for the frogs I got, I know that this person could have not given me anything. I was very grateful in the past for frogger x, but not happy about *this* transaction.
> 
> But am I wrong in feeling scammed? Am I wrong that what I was trying to do as a kind gesture was thrown in my face and told to be happy with anything I got? This thread is about respect.
> 
> ...


You are correct. You got scammed by a shady piece of frog crap. Please tell everyone that asks (in private) who this piece of crap is. None of us want to have anything to do with this person. You have every right to be mad and if it were me, I don't think I would be as nice as you're being.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

Rain Dart, why not just start a thread or add on to person X's thread in the Vendor Feedback section. It is allowed there...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I can't even picture it happening that way with the local froggers I know. It would go something more like this:

frogface: Ephaba, there's a guy who has 2 pairs he's going to give me! But I have to pick them up and I don't have any way to get there.

Ephaba: Cool! I can pick them up for you!

frogface: Oh would you?! I'll give you one of the pairs. 

Ephaba: No, don't be silly. I don't need anything for it. Maybe give me a little gas money and some froglets down the line.

This is how I picture it happening between *any* of the local froggers I know.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

frogface said:


> I can't even picture it happening that way with the local froggers I know. It would go something more like this:
> 
> frogface: Ephaba, there's a guy who has 2 pairs he's going to give me! But I have to pick them up and I don't have any way to get there.
> 
> ...


Funny u mention this, I just recently bought some frogs from Cali, EricM who I never met but have done business with manny times over the years did mea favor and picked them up and shipped them for me, he went 2 hours out of his way to do this, did not ask me for anything in return, but I sent him gas money without him having to ask


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

rain dart said:


> I was very grateful in the past for frogger x, but not happy about *this* transaction.
> This thread is about respect.
> Respect to not lie and say here are the frogs that were free, when they were clearly not, respect to man up and say, even if I don't agree, before I gave the deal to the that no they didn't want to share frogs, or instead wanted to keep all the adults and give me babies.
> 
> ...


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I've known 'Frogger X' for some time now and he's been nothing but helpful, kind, and an awesome standup person in general. I've never been given anything less than I was offered, in fact usually more. I'm most certainly not accusing the OP is lying, but I'm talking to those that, after one problematic dealing, accuse 'X' of being a 'scumbag' or 'liar'. I've heard many testimonials that refute these accusations on the spot, mine included. These slanderings should be reserved for true 'frogging scum'. 

D


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Dendroguy said:


> I've known 'Frogger X' for some time now and he's been nothing but helpful, kind, and an awesome standup person in general. I've never been given anything less than I was offered, in fact usually more. I'm most certainly not accusing the OP is lying, but I'm talking to those that, after one problematic dealing, accuse 'X' of being a 'scumbag' or 'liar'. I've heard many testimonials that refute these accusations on the spot, mine included. These slanderings should be reserved for true 'frogging scum'.
> 
> D


I think we'd all be open to hearing 'frogger X's' side of the story.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

*As I said before, I thought X was a good frogger too, very helpful etc. I was surprised and hurt but this transaction. I did not call him names or say anything that was untrue. I have not put up vendor feed back because for personal reasons. Here is the novel version...* 


I was on a wait list for a f1 froglet. I received an email from the seller who informed me the frog was ready if I wanted it as I was #1 on the wait list. At the current time I am trying to save up for some adult mints that are at a local reptile store and as much I was interested in the frog I like to buy frogs in pairs or trios. I contacted a Frogger X (acquaintance) and asked him if he would be interested in this frog if I bought it and resold it to him, same price. I asked him because I knew he was trying to get a variety of frogs for breeding , I thought it would be good for the west coast hobby. (All the great froggers seem to be back east ) So I contacted the seller in order to set up a pick up time. I was told the o.s was leaving town for work and would only be available over the next 36 hrs., this was a Tuesday. I contacted frogger X and asked if there was anyway he could pick up the frog. While waiting on a response, the org. seller asked me if I would like 4 more 1.5 yr old frogs at no extra charge. Frogger X said yes he could pick the frog up, so I asked him if he would like some free frogs and explained the seller was giving me 4 more frogs for free, and for picking up the frogs for me I would split them with him, 2 adults for him 2 adults for me. He was able to pick the frogs up that night and also bought some other frogs from the guy at great deals. He sent me pictures of the frogs we were to split and they were stunning. The next day he text me to ask if I would let him keep all the adult frogs and he would give me 2 other frogs now(galacs) and 4 babies when they started breeding. We went back and forth for a while, he told me the frogs were small and he could raise them up for me, I said I was told they were 1.5 yrs old and almost ready to sex and breed, he said oh no these are babies the orig. seller misinformed me, he kept trying to haggle my frogs for other frogs, even though I had turned him down. That Friday I asked him when would be a good time to pick up my frogs, and we set up a time for Sunday. He informed me before I picked up he was keeping the bigger of the frogs so he could start breeding sooner, I asked since it was my deal orig. if I could pick out one of the frogs and he could pick out the other for me , he said no...he already had my smaller ones ready. When I went to pick them up he had them ready in a container and I was unable to see the ones he was keeping. 
So I got them home and did what I always do when I get new frogs, I took lots of pictures, and I also emailed the orig. seller to thank him for the frogs and asked him about the age mix up. He returned my email saying they were indeed 1.5 yrs kinda small but he got them from Patrick Nabors and was told that some frogs are just runts. It all bothered me so I compared the pictures from the night of pick up and the ones I took, they did not match. I contacted frogger X and asked him what happened....this was his response:

***I threw all the sips in together when I first got them with a bunch of other sips I had paired out what was in there and gave you two sips not sure if there were his or troys or who ever you got two free sips I don't see I problem****

I emailed him back:

***Quote:
Originally Posted by rain dart
Well I disagree, I don't know age, lines, who they are from, how these people keep there frogs, qt procedures. I was promised 4 adult frogs which I was willing to share with you, had I picked them up myself you would of only got the one f1 sip, not all the other deals on the frogs you purchased, though I still would have offered you at least one adult if not a pair. I gave you the info because trusted your integrity and I thought you were really helpful when I needed it.

His response:
I gave you to free sips that was the deal and he offered me the four as well because I was buyn the sips and for hooking up the deal I gave two sips for free and you got them


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

rain dart said:


> *As I said before, I thought X was a good frogger too, very helpful etc. I was surprised and hurt but this transaction. I did not call him names or say anything that was untrue. I have not put up vendor feed back because for personal reasons. Here is the novel version...*
> 
> 
> I was on a wait list for a f1 froglet. I received an email from the seller who informed me the frog was ready if I wanted it as I was #1 on the wait list. At the current time I am trying to save up for some adult mints that are at a local reptile store and as much I was interested in the frog I like to buy frogs in pairs or trios. I contacted a Frogger X (acquaintance) and asked him if he would be interested in this frog if I bought it and resold it to him, same price. I asked him because I knew he was trying to get a variety of frogs for breeding , I thought it would be good for the west coast hobby. (All the great froggers seem to be back east ) So I contacted the seller in order to set up a pick up time. I was told the o.s was leaving town for work and would only be available over the next 36 hrs., this was a Tuesday. I contacted frogger X and asked if there was anyway he could pick up the frog. While waiting on a response, the org. seller asked me if I would like 4 more 1.5 yr old frogs at no extra charge. Frogger X said yes he could pick the frog up, so I asked him if he would like some free frogs and explained the seller was giving me 4 more frogs for free, and for picking up the frogs for me I would split them with him, 2 adults for him 2 adults for me. He was able to pick the frogs up that night and also bought some other frogs from the guy at great deals. He sent me pictures of the frogs we were to split and they were stunning. The next day he text me to ask if I would let him keep all the adult frogs and he would give me 2 other frogs now(galacs) and 4 babies when they started breeding. We went back and forth for a while, he told me the frogs were small and he could raise them up for me, I said I was told they were 1.5 yrs old and almost ready to sex and breed, he said oh no these are babies the orig. seller misinformed me, he kept trying to haggle my frogs for other frogs, even though I had turned him down. That Friday I asked him when would be a good time to pick up my frogs, and we set up a time for Sunday. He informed me before I picked up he was keeping the bigger of the frogs so he could start breeding sooner, I asked since it was my deal orig. if I could pick out one of the frogs and he could pick out the other for me , he said no...he already had my smaller ones ready. When I went to pick them up he had them ready in a container and I was unable to see the ones he was keeping.
> ...


I never accused you of anything. Not name calling, nor lying.

D


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

I know, and like I said I was shocked too. I want people know this thread is about respecting each other and not lying to fellow froggers.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

If this had happened to me, I would be beyond upset too. A deal is a deal and your word is your word. Trust is a big thing in this hobby. If I were X, and I had a different side to the story, I would definitely want to share it.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

rain dart said:


> ***I threw all the sips in together when I first got them with a bunch of other sips I had paired out what was in there and gave you two sips not sure if there were his or troys or who ever you got two free sips I don't see I problem****


And so now X will also be producing and selling frogs that he has not quarantined and has no background info on because he "threw all the sips in together" and doesn't know which frogs came from which sellers. (sigh) Not a good thing and probably not the first time...


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

WendySHall said:


> And so now X will also be producing and selling frogs that he has not quarantined and has no background info on because he "threw all the sips in together" and doesn't know which frogs came from which sellers. (sigh) Not a good thing and probably not the first time...


Glad I wasn't the only one that picked up on that. 

The longer X waits, the worse it looks. We know that X is aware of the thread. We'd like to hear what you have to say.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

X, I see you're reading this thread right now. I would very much like to hear your side of the story.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

X...as an aside from what's going on here...you've acquired a rather large amount of frogs in the short amount of time you've been here. To avoid quarantine and throw them all together is a bad way to start out. If it hasn't already happened, you're bound to have disease raging through your collection sooner or later.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Dendroguy said:


> I've known 'Frogger X' for some time now and he's been nothing but helpful, kind, and an awesome standup person in general. I've never been given anything less than I was offered, in fact usually more. I'm most certainly not accusing the OP is lying, but I'm talking to those that, after one problematic dealing, accuse 'X' of being a 'scumbag' or 'liar'. I've heard many testimonials that refute these accusations on the spot, mine included. These slanderings should be reserved for true 'frogging scum'.
> 
> D


I want to believe what you say is true. If X is being libeled(slander is spoken/libel is written) as you suggest, all they have to do is explain their side of the story. There are always two sides of every story.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ok. I'd like to clarify some things. X has been frogging for years now, more than most posting. He's done considerably more to help the hobby too. I can assure each and every one of you he does QT at a separate location than he keeps his collection and does not mix lines/morphs. His setup is in every way I know to be clean and professional. Furthermore X has donated frogs to a certain someone posting in this thread. Without screenshots I can't believe these quotes, neither should anyone posting. May I also mention this 'incident' occurred nearly 2 MONTHS ago. 

D


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Well , Dendroguy, let him speak for himself. Your testimony is no more believable than the OP's paraphrasing.


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## ctsdaxx (Mar 30, 2011)

but without "X" backing anything up we can only take what the posts state. it.
seems fishy at most with taking it all into account


Dendroguy said:


> Ok. I'd like to clarify some things. X has been frogging for years now, more than most posting. He's done considerably more to help the hobby too. I can assure each and every one of you he does QT at a separate location than he keeps his collection and does not mix lines/morphs. His setup is in every way I know to be clean and professional. Furthermore X has donated frogs to a certain someone posting in this thread. Without screenshots I can't believe these quotes, neither should anyone posting. May I also mention this 'incident' occurred nearly 2 MONTHS ago.
> 
> D


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

No offense, Dendroguy, but...how do you know X beyond the internet? If x and the op are in Cali and you are in Tenn...have you met somewhere before and been able to see his frogroom and the way he cares for the frogs in person?

If everything occurred the way the op states, I don't think it matters whether it was 2 months ago or 2 days ago. Wrong is wrong.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Dendroguy said:


> Ok. I'd like to clarify some things. X has been frogging for years now, more than most posting. He's done considerably more to help the hobby too. I can assure each and every one of you he does QT at a separate location than he keeps his collection and does not mix lines/morphs. His setup is in every way I know to be clean and professional. Furthermore X has donated frogs to a certain someone posting in this thread. Without screenshots I can't believe these quotes, neither should anyone posting. May I also mention this 'incident' occurred nearly 2 MONTHS ago.
> 
> D


Why doesn't he come defend himself then? It's not hard to put two and two together and understand your vested interest in his defense. He really needs to come here and explain his side of the story. It would probably be best to get out ahead of this.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

he's viewing this thread now



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Why doesn't he come defend himself then? It's not hard to put two and two together and understand your vested interest in his defense. He really needs to come here and explain his side of the story. It would probably be best to get out ahead of this.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Am I missing something? It seems like the pseudonym of 'X' is being used to refer to two different parties. Was this the outspoken, sometimes abrasive 'X' from Michigan, or the infamous, "Connected" 'X' from Southern California?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Abrasive "X" is no longer being discussed.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Actually it was a month ago, and like I said I do have the text and emails. See Dendro that is why I didn't go to vender feed back, but *you *posted saying what X had done, and again I said I am truly thankful for it, hence the reason I offered him the deal. OY ...I do not need to defend myself, yes a great gesture was given so *this* incident was shocking to me.



Dendroguy said:


> Ok. I'd like to clarify some things. X has been frogging for years now, more than most posting. He's done considerably more to help the hobby too. I can assure each and every one of you he does QT at a separate location than he keeps his collection and does not mix lines/morphs. His setup is in every way I know to be clean and professional. Furthermore X has donated frogs to a certain someone posting in this thread. Without screenshots I can't believe these quotes, neither should anyone posting. May I also mention this 'incident' occurred nearly 2 MONTHS ago.
> 
> D


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

While I'm deeply disturbed about the actions of "X" and I believe rain dart has a reason to be mad, as any of us would be, if "X" were to tell his side of the story could we film him in a shadow and disguise his voice like they do on 60 minutes? I guess maybe he could disguise his post with a different script style?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I see nothing more to be gained here - just a bunch of piling on.

If "X" contacts me to post - we'll open it back up for his post (and any responses).

As - we're closing this one.

We will likely reopen this one later - just want to let things cool down a little bit for the moment.

s


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Also - I removed the side conversation about another frogger or two.

Not important to the main topic.

s


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