# 6ft./150 gal first time Palu build...



## kitcolebay

This is my first post to Dendroboard. I have been doing a lot of reading on Vivarium Forums and started posting there. Here is a link to my beginner build thread there... 150 gallon/6 foot palu...1st time build. - Vivarium Forums
Just starting to continue my research by doing a lot of reading on here. Nice to meet you all and any help, warnings, and such is greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Chris.


----------



## kitcolebay

Here is a few pics of my first couple steps...


----------



## ibytencode

Great start. Just curious, what do you plan on putting in this?


----------



## kitcolebay

Not quite sure yet what live little critters I want to put in it. That's going to take a lot more research and I'd like to get my wife's and kids input. Dart's interest me, but they seem to definitely be more involved and complicated in care for a first time builder. I'm definitely up for suggestions on a good balance...Freshwater fish and land inhabitants.


----------



## kitcolebay

Another question to toss out there...would metal halides be too strong of lighting to use? I currently have a 2x250watt system that I was thinking of using and just lifting it off the top to keep some of the heat off the tank.


----------



## bmartin04983

It's looking great! Nicely done, keep it up!

Just a quick question, what is the blue liner you have under the rocks?


----------



## kitcolebay

It is a scrap piece of pool liner. I will be adding more rocks and lining the edges with Great Stuff for ponds to build it up and camo it a little more. None should be visible when done.
I'm about to go for a search on the forums, but I'll throw it on here too. I'm trying to calculate how much substrate I need. About to order my Hydroton and ABG mix and want to make sure I get the proper amount. Anyone got a good guess or have the formula to figure it?


----------



## kitcolebay

Estimating on the high side. I have no more than 4 1/2' x 18" of floor space to lay substrate. I imagine quite a bit a less, but would rather have a little too much substrate than not enough.
(This is in reference to the above question).


----------



## bmartin04983

kitcolebay said:


> It is a scrap piece of pool liner. I will be adding more rocks and lining the edges with Great Stuff for ponds to build it up and camo it a little more. None should be visible when done.
> I'm about to go for a search on the forums, but I'll throw it on here too. I'm trying to calculate how much substrate I need. About to order my Hydroton and ABG mix and want to make sure I get the proper amount. Anyone got a good guess or have the formula to figure it?


Look at New England Herpetoculture LLC - Home 

They are great people and have great product. You will see a calculator right on the front page. It's an excel document. If you dont have excel, I'm sure they will do it for you.

Brad


----------



## skanderson

if you use 250 watt mh you will be able to keep a wide variety of plants at different heights. the disadvantage is that they throw alot of heat. you will definately need to raise them and maybe even need to run a fan on them to keep the heat near the tank down. that is somewhat dependant on what you want to keep in the viv. my suggestion is before planting or buying any animals to cover the viv. and turn the lights on for 12 hours and see what happens to the tank. if you dont have the lights but were considering buying them i would consider looking into either a decent t5 system with good reflectors or even better a led system. keep us in on the build, thanks steve


----------



## nonliteral

kitcolebay said:


> It is a scrap piece of pool liner. I will be adding more rocks and lining the edges with Great Stuff for ponds to build it up and camo it a little more. None should be visible when done.
> I'm about to go for a search on the forums, but I'll throw it on here too. I'm trying to calculate how much substrate I need. About to order my Hydroton and ABG mix and want to make sure I get the proper amount. Anyone got a good guess or have the formula to figure it?


Measure or guestimate the length, width, and depth of substrate you'll need in inches (ie: 18" x 18" x 2" deep); multiply together, divide by 231, and you'll have the volume you need in gallons.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks Steve and Brad. Appreciate the help!
I tried the calculator on NEHERP, but unfortunately no excel. I'm about to give them a call. Is that the best place you'd recommend ordering hydroton and ABG? I was considering them or Josh's Fogs.
About the lights, thanks again. I was definitely planning on having temp and humidity going for a while before adding any live little friends, but that is a fine idea to check the temp fluctuation from the lights before even doing any planting. At the moment, I just have a standard 6 ft. bulb for the tank and was planning on buying a new t8 bulb to put in it. Hoping to put that metal halide system to good use!

Thanks Chuck! I had already went the long way converting cubic inches to quarts, but your equation is much easier and confirmed my answer. Items are now in shopping cart...lol.


----------



## nonliteral

kitcolebay said:


> Is that the best place you'd recommend ordering hydroton and ABG?


I'm not sure what part of the country you're in, but if you have a hydroponics supply place nearby, you may be able to buy hydroton locally and save on shipping. I've also seen it at some of the larger nursery / greenhouse supply shops.


----------



## kitcolebay

Last week or so I had checked local nurseries, home improvement garden areas, and pet stores. Unfortunately, the pet stores just had the basics and overpriced. I did order from Josh's frogs and thankfully they had free shipping. Not too bad at all! Ordered my hydroton, ABG, leaf litter, and thermo/humidity gauges. At the store today I picked up a nice piece of cork round I really like. Hopefully, I can make a trade real soon for filters so I can get moving forward on the construction again.


----------



## bmartin04983

kitcolebay said:


> ...Is that the best place you'd recommend ordering hydroton and ABG? I was considering them or Josh's Fogs....


I have used both and have had good experiences with both. I personally stick with NE Herp when I can. They have gone the extra mile for me before, and I haven't found a better fly media than theirs - out preforming my previous favorite by a lot!


----------



## kitcolebay

My son and I spent some time in the garage and made some good progress. He's always a lot of help. We put some screen down on the landing around the waterfall. Got the background cut. Put shelves in the background and mounted some planter cups. Siliconed rocks on the inside of the "pond". Planned out some of the plumbing since I made my filter trade this morning...Got 3 Magnum 350 canisters for my sump filter. I'm going to use two of them. We also got the background covered in Great Stuff.
Here is a pic before we put planter cups and GS on background or finished putting some more rocks on pond wall-









Hopefully I may make knock out some smaller things over the next week. I may wait two weeks to do some of the bigger steps for when my son and I can spend another weekend toying around with it.
My Hydroton and ABG should be in around Tuesday.


----------



## kitcolebay

I wanted to get some feedback on critter selection. For several reasons, I was thinking something somewhat simple...I hope. I know I've read that many people don't think it's a good idea to have several types in a tank, but some people like to and have no problems. After talking to my wife and kids, they like the simple green anoles and tree frogs. Is it generally fine to have these together? I've been told yes at our local store, but I like to get multiple opinions to best base my own. Also, is it ok to mix tree frogs? For example, green's and red eye's? For the water portion, I was thinking maybe a few cichlids. Any advice, suggestions, and recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
Just a reminder, it is 6 ft. by 25" by 18" and 150 gallons. Quantities of suggested critters for that size would be great too.


----------



## kitcolebay

Wish me luck! Tomorrow morning I'm picking up what I hope to be another Craigslist deal. 60" 8 bulb HO T5 fixture with 6 month old 6500k bulbs in it for only $75. I assume it's one of the cheaper fixtures, but I'd think it should meet or exceed my requirements...I hope!

No more construction yet. I hope to get some or all of the plumbing done this week. Yesterday my order of substrate materials from Josh's came in. I also picked up another cork round I like that will provide a "land bridge" over the "creek" and another couple good places to plant.


----------



## kitcolebay

Busy week(like most people have). Hope to get some work done this weekend(once again, like most people). I did get my lights picked up yesterday morning. Pretty happy with them. They are the cheap China made ones, but they are still 8 working T5 HO 6500k bulbs that light up pretty good. Eventually I will buy new bulbs to brighten it up even more and put a couple different strengths to hit a wider spectrum of color.

My LED lunar lights showed up today. I have these same lights for my salt water tanks. I don't think you can beat the price...72" bar(3x24") that has 54 LED's w/dimmer control for $55. They are also in clear tubes to make them water resistant(not waterproof). Thanks DigiKits.com.

Other than that, just a whole lot of reading and thinking about the next steps.

-Chris

Here is my new LED's out of the box...










And one of my existing ones in my 55 gallon reef tank...










In my reef tank, I have them at full brightness. I imagine I will have them dimmed down to one of the lower settings for the Viv.


----------



## kitcolebay

Well, far from complete, but got a little more done. Got all the plumbing figured out and roughed in. Just have to run to the store this morning to grab a couple more fittings. I did test my misting nozzles to the pump and they worked pretty good. I'm also picking up my humidifier for my fog line this morning. Ordered the black contact paper to trim and place on the outside to block what doesn't need to be seen. Once I know that everything is set to stay, then I'll work on sealing in the pond, attaching the background, and sealing up the seams. 

Hopefully I'll make some progress next weekend if my son and I get a chance. He just turned 16, so we will be gone part of the weekend to take him and a couple friends to a Rise Against concert. Also, have a party to go to on Saturday. Maybe...Sunday?

Here's a couple pics of it roughed in...

Right side...










Left side...










Full view from left...










The 2x4 in center is just there to prop up the overhang until I get it secured in place. Still a lot on my list to do!

As always, please feel free to comment, suggest, or criticize. I'd love to have the feedback on how I'm doing and what I could do be better. 

Thanks, Chris


----------



## jpstod

Looking Fantastic..A lot of Effort going into it


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Wow, a nice big tank and a very ambitious project. Looks like it's coming along very nicely. One thing I wanted to mention, while I don't know this for fact first hand, I have heard that pool liners may be impregnated with some nasty chemicals (algecides etc.) You may want to check into that. Pool liners were made for pools not vivs. A safer alternative might be some EPDM pond liner that is safe for fish and animals. Just a thought. I'd hate for you to do all this work and find out there is a problem after it's inhabited.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks gentlemen!

I appreciate the heads up on the pool liner. I'll check into that. Hopefully I may be all right. This was a scrap piece that was never in the pool. You're absolutely right though...I don't really want to try to remove it, but it'd be so much easier to do now than waiting until everything is assembled, secured, and have hurt little critters in the tank!

These are definitely the things I need to know! Please keep them coming!....

...Why!?!...

...Because my wife has given me the green light! Plus, she would like to see it done and in its final place by May 12th(The day my step-daughter is moving her stuff into the garage temporarily)! Coincidentally that is FrogDay! 

Can you all help me? I'd like to go up to FrogDay and actually shop for the new inhabitants. Can I have this ready in time to house some new friends? Which frogs would you suggest for me to start with? What all do I need to do before then? I have a lot to do in a short time(which I didn't want to do). I wanted to go slow and careful, but now opportunity knocks with a challenge! If darts are the suggested frogs, then I need to get busy learning and doing cultures, right? 

Once again, I could use all the guidance I can get to complete this properly and make it to FrogDay!

Thanks in advance! 

-Chris


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Chris, that's one of the many wonderful things about this forum. With so many individuals and so many minds someone is bound to thing of something that never crossed your mind. It may just be something really helpful. 

Like I said I'm not 100% sure about the pool liner, but better safe than sorry. 
So I'm assuming you're within driving distance of Chicago to come up for Frog Day 2012. Even if you don't get the viv finished, it would still be a wonderful experience to some and meet people and look at the frogs. Don't fret there are ALWAYS frogs available. If you do purchase some and the viv isn't finished you could always buy a rubbermaid type container to house them temporarily. Most people give their vivs at least a few weeks to a few months to let the plants become established, let microfauna colonize etc. before adding their frogs. Not saying it can't be done quicker, it's just this has sort of become a best practice. 

Your viv is coming along nicely and it will be done it no time, though never as quickly as we would like. I've been working on a couple new one for a few weeks myself. I wish they would finish themselves lol. 

I'm glad you have the support of your wife, that's important. If she was hesitant at first I bet she'll end up loving the frogs and will spend hours watching them and telling you all about what they're up to. I've seen that happen more than a few times.


----------



## shibbyplustax

yea i was going to say, your going to want to quarantine the frogs for a few weeks anyway before you put them in the viv. you dont want to do all this hard work on the viv, put your frogs in and realize they are sick and have to rip everything out and sterilize. This way if you qt it will not only give you a few extra weeks to finish but also help prevent you from having to destroy your work.


----------



## jpstod

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Wow, a nice big tank and a very ambitious project. Looks like it's coming along very nicely. One thing I wanted to mention, while I don't know this for fact first hand, I have heard that pool liners may be impregnated with some nasty chemicals (algecides etc.) You may want to check into that. Pool liners were made for pools not vivs. A safer alternative might be some EPDM pond liner that is safe for fish and animals. Just a thought. I'd hate for you to do all this work and find out there is a problem after it's inhabited.


How come algae still grows on it then?

Many Pool liners are made of EPDM also


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I could not tell you why algae grows on it. My whole point was be sure what you're putting in your viv. I know for a fact EPDM liners are safe. If pool liners are then why aren't they used in ponds? I'd rather have the OP make sure it's safe rather than to just assume it is and end up disappointed with dead frogs. It's worth checking out just to be sure.


----------



## jpstod

Thickness for one reason. pool liners are made to stretch (most being vinyl)
Pond liners are also designed to be tough and puncture resistant

Even a Search of EPDM turned this up..
"What about EPDM? There are several manufacturers of EPDM material, and each has introduced a slight variation. One states categorically that their product is indeed safe for fish, whereas another states equally emphatically that their product is guaranteed to kill fish and they warn their sales staff to be sure to inform potential customers of this fact. I do not know the situation with yet a third producer."

I have had Koi ponds and Watergardens and I have never killed any fish due to the liner.
Sadly if truely researched most fish kills are due to water issues due to chemicals in the Ponds..

One favorite brand of silicone used by most hobbyist contains a Mold/fungus preventer

Another reason Vinyl degrades faster when Exposed to UV Rays.

A Search on EPDM discussion
"EPDM and PVC pond liners are by far the most widely available. PVC stands for polyvinyl chloride. While that doesn't sound like something you'd want to expose your fish too, PVC is quite safe for all aquatics. EPDM stands for ethylene-propylene rubber. What's the difference between EPDM and PVC? Well, PVC pond liners are more flexible than EPDM ones, but EPDM liners can handle temperatures down to 40 below, whereas PVC liners shouldn't be exposed to much more than 20 below. 

Both kinds of pond liner have very good seal capabilities (so if you need to glue two bid sheets together, either PVC or EPDM will do fine), but EPDM tends to have better UV resistance, and is less likely to tear. Even if you do use an EPDM liner, you'll still want to limit the sun exposure. Finally, PVC liners do have a reputation for having a shorter lifespan than EPDM liners, but there are no real-world tests that prove that. 

Given its slightly extra strength and ability to withstand long-term exposure to sunlight, EPDM liners are ultimately a better choice. But if all you can find is a PVC liner, go ahead and use it with confidence. The best-selling brand of EPDM liners is Firestone, which offers a 20 year limited warranty for their 45 mil and 60 mil liners. The difference between 45 and 60 mil is thickness - 60 is thicker than 45. Both weights make an excellent liner. If you can afford 60 mil, pay the extra for the added durability. Once your pond is filled and stocked with koi, the idea of having to drain it and search for one tiny hole to fix a leak will make you grateful you bought the 60 mil liner.

Some pond centers also sell butyl liners, which are comparable to EPDM liners in strength, flexibility and UV resistance. Many long-term pond builders say butyl liners considerably outlast even EPDM liners. They do cost more, however, and are harder to find. If you're satisfied enough with a 20 year life for your liner, EPDM is probably the best compromise of quality and cost."


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I've built three ponds using EPDM liner and never had a problem. I did purchase them from a pond retailer and they were made for fish/ponds. I felt comfortable using them. 
As far as the silicone, I believe a large number of hobbyists have purchased the wrong type of silicone without realizing there are two different types. I believe it's GE Silicone I and II correct? I don't use that brand so I'm not to familiar with it. I always try and find 100% pure silicone and then make sure it doesn't have any mold/fungus inhibitors. 
Great info jpstod, thanks.


----------



## Alegre323

looks great. im jealous already. cant wait to see it planted


----------



## Alegre323

oh and I think firebelly toads would do great in there. plus its cool as hell to watch them hunt in the water


----------



## goof901

first off, it looks great!!! also, if you are planning on putting frogs in there, it would be a good idea to make the edges of the pond sloped so the frogs don't get stuck in there.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thank you so much for your posts and thoughts. Hopefully I can make a tiny bit of progress made each morning before getting called into work.

I'm still a little uncertain on how I'm going to seal the pond wall to the front glass. I have the 2 big pieces of flat slate that I was planning on trying to silicone into place and then silicone the divider/wall to the slate. Then after using the black Great Stuff for ponds, I thought that might make a better seal, but look kinda crappy. Another option was to say to hell with how the seal looks and just cover it up on the outside with black contact paper. Any suggestions on how to get a good seal and it still look decent would be great!

I'm about to do some reading before going to bed, but I'd also gladly take any advice about potential inhabitants for this beginner. The first thing we saw at the store before starting this project was a tank with firebelly toads and newts that we liked. I also like the idea of frogs with green anoles. Any particular frogs that would live well with anoles? Or avoid that completely? As for tree frogs, I like the RETF's. Then, finally, I like darts. What would be manageable for a rookie to take care of and add a lot of life and activity to the tank?


----------



## kitcolebay

Also, any plant suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

I have browsed the local nurseries and read some threads/sites for recommended plants. I've found some that I'm interested in and made a compiled list of "good plants for terrariums". 

Specific suggestions for the shape, size, and layout of my tank would be great! I'll continue doing my own homework, but it's always nice to have some experienced help to speed up the learning process.

*If this was your tank, how would you stock it with frogs, plants, fish, and/or others?*

Thanks again for all your help and support!

-Chris


----------



## kitcolebay

I'm thinking RETF's or one of the more common, hardier darts. Which would be the wiser choice for my tank? Would small community freshwater fish be ok in the "pond" with either of these? Would green anoles be ok with either? What would be a good beginner dart?


----------



## Alegre323

RETF's are boring as hell. they're only active during the night. go with some fire belly toads. active ALL DAY and part of the night. plus they're tanks and pretty much invinsible lol


----------



## Alegre323

if it were my tank, id go with guppies and neon tetras, some cleaning fish, duckweed, an actuall small species of lillypad, some nice broms, jewel orchid, and a fog machine hooked up at the top of the waterfall.


----------



## goof901

if u want anoles, make sure u get CB ones not WC because they can bring in harmful parasites.


----------



## Ckent42

How much water is that? You could use any number of small schooling rasboras, with some freshwater gobies and killifish. It depends on what you enjoy though, a few large bright fish, or a large number of schooling fish. I'm not sure if cichlids would be a good choice, as I'm pretty sure that they need hard water, and that might be bad for the plants/frogs, especially with many of them coming from south america. Just something to keep in mind, but some rams might work, that's a fish I've always wanted haha.

Anyways, this is a spectacular tank, and I can't wait to see it finished. That pond, stream, and multiple levels are really an amazing idea. Good luck with it all!


Edit: you might want to stay away from duckweed, it takes over incredibly fast and is difficult to get rid of, especially in high light, low surface current situations. There are many other floating plants that you can use, that are bigger, grow slower, and filter the water just as well, such as water lettuce.


----------



## Ckent42

You could also try some dwarf day geckos, or mourning geckos if you want. You just have to make sure that it is really escape proof, especially if they're breeding, as I read someone's story about how their hatchling yellow headed dwarf geckos were escaping through some airline tubing in the tank.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Ckent42 said:


> How much water is that? You could use any number of small schooling rasboras, with some freshwater gobies and killifish. It depends on what you enjoy though, a few large bright fish, or a large number of schooling fish. I'm not sure if cichlids would be a good choice, as I'm pretty sure that they need hard water, and that might be bad for the plants/frogs, especially with many of them coming from south america. Just something to keep in mind, but some rams might work, that's a fish I've always wanted haha.
> 
> Anyways, this is a spectacular tank, and I can't wait to see it finished. That pond, stream, and multiple levels are really an amazing idea. Good luck with it all!
> 
> 
> Edit: you might want to stay away from duckweed, it takes over incredibly fast and is difficult to get rid of, especially in high light, low surface current situations. There are many other floating plants that you can use, that are bigger, grow slower, and filter the water just as well, such as water lettuce.


There are many species of South American Cichlids as well as tetras, charchacins, etc that live in the flooded forest during the rainy season. The water becomes stained from all the tannins leaching out from the leaves. pH is often well below 5. This water is very soft and acidic. In fact the color of those fish often look better in brown stained water.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks for the suggestions! More questions and thoughts after doing some reading(and more after I post this)...

Josh's frogs says Mourning Geckos are good tank mates with darts? Agree? I would like to have some possible tank mates such as anoles or geckos, as long as it's not dangerous to the frogs. I've read plenty of threads on the opinions of having more than just frogs. Some are for it. Some are not. Some say very careful consideration. Very careful consideration is a given, but I actually haven't seen much for examples of generally compatible combinations. 

At a glance, I'm looking further into mourning geckos, darts(auratus, leuc, or azureus), then small schooling fish such as rasboras other small tetras. Further thoughts if this is a good or bad combination?

By the way, I calculate it is only 25-28 gallons of water in "pond" area. A little more with water in 2 canister filters, waterfall, and "creek" area.


----------



## Ckent42

I've seen a member who successfully had darts and dwarf geckos in one tank together, but when he moved them to a bigger tank, the geckos sorta died off. However, his tank was massive, search for "hillstream loach vivarium" or something similar, he truly did an amazing job with it. Also, I know that energy kept anoles with his darts, and everything went fine between the two species, they even bred, until the anoles found a way out and perished. So those are two examples that have worked successfully. I think energy also has vampire crabs and mudskippers in his tank as well. 20 gallons is plenty for small schools of small fish, and two canister filters with all that extra will ensure that the fish side stays fine.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thank you Ckent42.

I'll do a search and some more reading. First step is to get my tank in order. Second, will be to hopefully get some darts at FrogDay(and QT/temporary house them until all is safe). Third, will be to possibly add dwarf geckos or anoles if all goes well and seems like a safe thing to do. I want to plan and research for options. More and likely, I'm not going to do it all immediately. I already feel like I'm starting to rush it, but it's in hopes of taking advantage of that wonderful opportunity of driving up to FrogDay(and possibly save a lot of money).

It was mentioned I should put a fogger at top of waterfall. I already have one plumbed in underneath the rock overhang to come out across the top of the "pond".

Thanks again for all the help! I'll gladly continue to accept more!


----------



## Shinosuke

I highly recommend staying away from duckweed. That stuff is about impossible to fully get our of a tank - if you miss a piece of a leaf somewhere it will come back in full force. Once introduced the best you can do is manage it. It will cover the full surface of just about any tank in a matter of weeks and block all light to plants below it and strangle out any other floating plants.
Frogbit is a better option imho.


----------



## kitcolebay

Honestly, I'm not real fond of the aquatic plants. The only one I've seen at the local shop that I liked was Cabomba. Is there a pleasant looking floating plant you would recommend? I really don't have the interest plant much in the water. I do hope to do a lot of planting out of the water. I imagine I will do as much as I can reasonably afford to start and then try to add little by little as allowance allows.


----------



## kitcolebay

Speaking of the water plants, what should I use for the "pond" substrate? 

I'm used to aquariums, so I was originally just planning on using more of the river rock like I have on the walls and filling the voids with aquarium sand. If I'm considering putting a few plants on the bottom, do I need to change that? Something more soil-like?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Frogbit is a nice floating plant, it looks silmilar to duckweed but with much bigger leaves. 

frogbit - Google Search


----------



## kitcolebay

You're right, I like that!

Thanks for the Google link...pretty damn handy! Lol.


----------



## Shinosuke

All of these plants are readily available in the aquarium hobby or at a store like aquariumplants.com. I use flourite as a substrate but none of these would require anything more than a medium to root in/on (maybe not even that much).

You already know about frogbit but I feel like I should mention it again, it's MUCH better than duckweed.

Tiger lotus is a bulb plant that puts out huge beautiful leaves. If you let the leaves grow to the surface of the water they look like triangular lily-pads and sprout amazing flowers. It's easy to grow, cheap, and comes in a couple different colors (green is my favorite, it's speckly and cool).

Anubias is another good one with a number of different forms. It has thick, lush looking leaves and will grow in water or partially submerged (perfect for shallow parts of the water or in streams). It usually likes low light and is a pretty slow grower. 

Cryptocorene has a bunch of different forms / colors and many varieties do well fully or partially submerged. 

Here, let me google that for you 
Tiger Lotus
Anubias
Cryptocorene


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Java Fern is another good, hardy, low light, aquatic plant that can grow submerged or emerged. I have some of the "elk horn" variety growing emerged in some of my vivs.


----------



## kitcolebay

Okay...that tiger lotus is cool as hell!


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I just took this pic of the java fern, cause I'm cool like that lol. It really is a neat little plant. This is the elk horn variety as you can see by the branching at the end of the leaves. In the standard type the leave just kind of come to a point at the end. Either one will work fine.


----------



## kitcolebay

Sorry to be lazy here...trying to hurry up and get back out to the garage before work calls me in. 

Couple things I've read, but don't recall as well as I'd like to. I have a piece of driftwood that used to be in a planted tank for years and now has been out of water for a couple years. Do I need to boil and/or bake it before placing in viv?


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks Rusty, you are cool like that! I like that fern too. My wife is a big fan of ferns and I planned on putting a few in.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

What a ya know? Here's an ad for Java fern right here on DB.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants-supplies-classifieds/82182-microsorum-sp.html


----------



## Shinosuke

Dangit, Rusty! Stop being so cool, it's hard to try and keep up! Here are some pictures I just took (with my cell phone, sorry for the quality) of my planted shrimp tank at work that has a lot of these plants in it.

A top-down of some lotus leaves on top of an anubias leaf









Same, but a male cherry shrimp happened to walk by









2 cory cats who are good pals hanging out on the anubias, there are also a few tiger shrimp but they're hard to see









The left side of the shrimp tank (the right side is kinda dark, hard to get pics of). The plant in the back left is regular java fern (I've also got some elk horn variety in this tank but I can't get a clear pic of it). The squiggles are snake-skin endlers and are impossible to capture on my camera phone. Please ignore the scraggly looking anachris, I just trimmed a bunch out. Yes, there are about a bajillion cherry shrimp in there.









Alright, I'm done jacking this thread. 

Tiger lotus are cool and I hope you put some in this tank!


----------



## Ckent42

And you don't really have to put a lot of plants in the water section to make it look nice....it would look great with just some nice driftwood/rock formations, and then just add some Lilly pad plants, a few aquatic, and a lot of overhanging and emergent growth along the edges.....


----------



## kitcolebay

Lmao! I'm getting a kick out of your little battle of the plants! And learning a lot....Thank you!

Here is a pic(not a good one) of the piece of driftwood I'll have in there. I'm planning on using one side of it to add a little additional support to my rock overhang and hopefully have the other side touching the side wall.










10 more days until FrogDay and this is my to-do-list that I started with this morning...


- Pull everything out.
-Trim shelves.
-Finish plumbing fogger.
-Wrap all eggcrate with screen.
-Pvc legs on left false bottom.
-Put screen over fogger outlet.
-Notch background for overhang rock #3.
-Tilt tank to…
-Seal/attach 2 “mounting “ rocks.
-Seal pond.
-Remove water heater and fans from 55 gallon.
-Install water heater.
-Wrap fans with screen.
-Attach background to walls.
-Install LED’s.
-Install rain head.
-Build shelf for pumps/filters.
-Build brace for plumbing and valves.
-Plumb all lines.
-Hook up pumps.
-Hook up humidifier.
-Pond Great Stuff remaining creek and waterfall.
-Test all water features.
-Great stuff seams and edges.
-Braid and install vines/misting lines.
-Gorilla glue or silicone Coco or ABG to misting lines and rain head.
-Brush on Gorilla glue and apply Coco husk to all background.
-Put substrate and decorations in.
-Apply contact paper on outside.
-Buy and put in “pond” substrate.
-Buy and install canopy backstrip. Install fans.
-Buy starter fish and “starter fluid“.


-Paint lighting fixture.
-Install shelf and light.
-Move into Bailey’s room on Sunday!

-Boil/bake wood? Clean rocks.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Oh that's all you have left to do? Couple of hours work tops lol. 
Battle of the plants huh? That just sounds nerdy doesn't it? I think Shinosuke wins because he actually had cherry shrimp and fish in his pics. Mine are from a viv that I set up in Nov. and it's still empty, no frogs. I'm hoping to correct that on Frog Day. 
Your viv is coming along nicely, every day I see progress.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thank you again Sir! I got a couple things checked off. Off to work now.


----------



## Shinosuke

Well his plants are actually in a viv (plus his photo quality beats mine), so how about we call the !EPIC DB PLANT BATTLE OF 2012! a draw?

Nice centerpiece driftwood. Sounds like there's plenty left to do but try not to rush anything, that's when most mistakes happen. If you do get froglets at frogday they'll be fine in a QT container for a good long while.

Oh, and don't worry too much about what kind of substrate you use in the water. Sand and river stones would be fine for any of the plants we've mentioned.


----------



## kitcolebay

Hopefully a quick question...

What is a good peat or sphagnum moss to use? I know I've read to be careful of ones that have chemicals added and some of the organic ones that have fertilizer(manure/parasites). Is there a recommended brand or mix that is popular and safe?

I already have coco husk that I'm covering the background with. I have ABG for my substrate. I'm making my vines and want to cover them up....figured a peat or sphagnum would look much better than the coco husk.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## kitcolebay

Making some progress...

*Done*- Pull everything out.
*Done*-Trim shelves.
*Done*-Finish plumbing fogger.
*Done*-Wrap all eggcrate with screen.
*Done*-Pvc legs on left false bottom.
*Done*-Put screen over fogger outlet.
*Done*-Notch background for overhang rock #3.
*Done*-Tilt tank to…
*Done*-Seal/attach 2 “mounting “ rocks.
*Done*-Seal pond.
*Done*-Remove water heater and fans from 55 gallon.
_Skip_ -Install water heater.
-Wrap fans with screen.
*Done*-Attach background to walls.
-Install LED’s.
-Install rain head.
_Skip_ -Build shelf for pumps/filters.
_Skip_ -Build brace for plumbing and valves.
-Plumb all lines.
-Hook up pumps.
-Hook up humidifier.
-Pond Great Stuff remaining creek and waterfall.
-Test all water features.
*Done*-Great stuff seams and edges.
*1/2 * -Braid and install vines/misting lines.
-Gorilla glue or silicone Coco or ABG to misting lines and rain head.
-Brush on Gorilla glue and apply Coco husk to all background.
-Put substrate and decorations in.
-Apply contact paper on outside.
-Buy and put in “pond” substrate.
-Buy and install canopy backstrip. Install fans.
-Buy starter fish and “starter fluid“.
*Done*-Prep coco husk.
-Clean canopy glass.


-Paint lighting fixture.
-Install shelf and light.
-Move into Bailey’s room on Sunday!(or earlier)

-Boil/bake wood? Clean rocks.

Time for work soon.
Another round tomorrow...I hope.

From previous posts...Do I need to boil/bake my driftwood still? A recommended peat or sphagnum for covering my vines?

Thanks, Chris.


----------



## goof901

kitcolebay said:


> From previous posts...Do I need to boil/bake my driftwood still?


depends. if you got the wood from outside then yes, if you got it from a pet store, then it isn't necessary.


----------



## kitcolebay

The driftwood used to be in a freshwater planted tank for a few years then it's been out of a tank for the last couple years.


----------



## fieldnstream

kitcolebay said:


> Hopefully a quick question...
> 
> What is a good peat or sphagnum moss to use? I know I've read to be careful of ones that have chemicals added and some of the organic ones that have fertilizer(manure/parasites). Is there a recommended brand or mix that is popular and safe?
> 
> I already have coco husk that I'm covering the background with. I have ABG for my substrate. I'm making my vines and want to cover them up....figured a peat or sphagnum would look much better than the coco husk.
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!


I prefer using peat mixed with a little coco as the bg covering. I use: Shop Fafard 3.0 Cu. Ft. Majestic Earth Peat Moss at Lowes.com
$10 for a huge package, it will last you forever. In order to get a strong bond, I put a thin layer on a baking sheet and put it in the oven for a couple of hours at 200 with the door slightly ajar, stirring a few times. This dries the peat and makes it stick much better. I use titebond II instead of silicone...works like a charm. Word of warning: use a mask when working with the peat unless you like blowing out black boogies for a few days.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks Field!

As of now, my plans were to use brush on Gorilla Glue and use coco husk(bricks of Exo Terra) to cover the background. Do you think this won't work so well? Also, I just got done prepping the bricks by soaking each one in 100 oz. of water per the directions and "fluffing" it all up. After you pointing out that you dry all yours out, should I turned around and dry mine all out again? I thought things adhere and cure better with Gorilla Glue if a little moisture is present.

I was going to use the peat/sphagnum for covering the misting lines/vines and rainhead.

Thanks very much for the link and name to the peat along with the Titebond II. I'll go shopping for it tomorrow and use that for the vines.

Once again, do you suggest I rethink my plans for the BG?


----------



## kitcolebay

Ok...just figured out my rough(and very sad) budget for initial plants and frogs...$250-300.

This will require some careful planning or budgeting. I'm still planning on making it up to FrogDay. Anyone know if the selection and price of plants would be better there or shall I just pick some from the local greenhouse?

Any other suggestions on how to properly start on limited budget would be gratefully accepted.


----------



## fieldnstream

Using gorilla glue is going to be pretty expensive for a tank that size, I'd go with the titebond. This would be plenty: Titebond II Premium Wood Glue Gal.-5006 at The Home Depot
I mix the coco and peat, think it gives the bg much better texture (and the darker peat looks better in my opinion). If you do decide to go with gorilla glue, then the coco can be moist.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

You really made progess on that list. I know there is going to be at least one vendor with a nice selection of plants, and he's a DB member. Mike - thierzman2. 

Your were asking for ways to save money? Make your own fruit fly medium is a suggestion I have for you. If you want recipes http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/58072-best-homemade-ff-media.html Boom! I personaly use Julio's mix, post #3. Another good way to save money is grow your own plants, because you will be setting up more vivs at some point in the near future. Collect your own leaves. Attend local swaps/meets. Re-use ff culture lids by bleaching them and then rinsing well and drying completely. They can be used many times over. 

Gotta shout out to Field on the peat moss tip. Field I think I'm gonna get some for the 55 gal. viv I'm working on. If I have to go back to Lowe's for a second bag is that a re-peat?


----------



## fieldnstream

Hey Jon, the 55 will look great with a peat background (get that thing done already bubba!). I strongly advise using titebond with peat...silicone+peat just doesn't last well (learned that the hard way).
Hijack concluded....


----------



## kitcolebay

I'm going to run my errands in the morning and pick up some supplies

I'll gladly accept your advice and experience and go with peat and titebond. I already have a big bottle of Gorilla, but will exchange for the more affordable Titebond. My 3 bricks of Coco Husk are already prepped and filling up a 5 gallon bucket. You suggest I mix some of that with the peat? Shall I also mix some in with my ABG substrate? And the rest? Lol. 

To confirm, I should dry out the peat and coco husk that I want to apply if using Titebond?


----------



## J Teezy

if you are still trying to decide on frogs for the tank i definitely wouldn't do RETF's or any tree frog at all. You need more vertical space for tree frogs. If this was my tank i'd probably put Leucs in it personally or maybe some black and green auratus. I like leucs, they are very bold and active

One thing i hope for you is that the pond section of your tank never leaks, cause that could cause a problem.

Make sure you get some springtails going in that bad boy too


----------



## kitcolebay

Okay, got a handful more done today. A lot to go still!

I did some shopping yesterday. Sadly, I had to drop the money to buy a new glass canopy(largest cost of project so far). I scrubbed the old one with just about everything I saw on these forums. Vinegar, lemon juice, razor scraper, magic eraser, CLR, the Works, and maybe more. I gave up. New ones look nice though...lol. Got a couple last fittings I needed. A gallon of Titebond. A huge thing of peat sphagnum. Couple clearance broms(broken pots).

Misting lines are strung up like vines. Canopy backstrip cut to fit. "Rain" head installed. Sealed around all of background. Tested LED's and decided to mount the out of tank instead of inside.

I struggled with adhering the peat to the background with the Titebond. What is the recommended way to apply? I was trying to brush on the glue and then gently press on the peat. I was ending up with quite a few bare spots. I finally cleared some room, spun the tank, and laid it on its back. Then covered everything liberally with the glue and just piled on the peat. Late tonight or in the morning I will stand it up and remove all the excess. I believe I will end up using the shop vac and just suck it all out(and waste it...I have plenty).

As for as new friends to put in, I've decided to hold off on the frogs. I will get the tank going, acclimated, fish placed, and probably some anoles to start. After that, then start my springtails, wait some time, and then buy frogs. I have decided against tree frogs. It will probably be Leucs, Azureus, or Auratus.

Hopefully, I will finish the peat covering process tomorrow morning, get the tank moved into the house, place substrate, finish plumbing in stand, and get some water running in it.


----------



## JPccusa

The way I understood it, you mix the Titebond with the peat (creates a mud), then apply that to the background.


----------



## fieldnstream

Lay tank flat, put on a heavy layer of titebond, then dump a bunch of peat on top and press in. If you make a mixture it dries shiny...not very natural looking. You are gonna have to do touch-ups (its the same with silicone), but it takes much less time with the wood glue.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

fieldnstream said:


> Lay tank flat, put on a heavy layer of titebond, then dump a bunch of peat on top and press in. If you make a mixture it dries shiny...not very natural looking. You are gonna have to do touch-ups (its the same with silicone), but it takes much less time with the wood glue.


Best to get a package of disposable latex gloves from the home improvement store for spreading titebond, silicone, etc. and pressing peat, coco fiber, sphag. moss etc.


----------



## fieldnstream

Hey Jon, bare-handed is the way to go...who doesn't like looking like they have a rare skin disease? You are absolutely correct, gloves are a necessity.


----------



## kitcolebay

Last night I did end up laying in flat, brushed on the glue, pored the peat in heavy, and still had my hands covered. Lol. Before bed I stood it back up and shop vac'ed the excess out and started touching it up. Then more vacuuming and touching it up. Still not as consistent and covered as I would like, but getting there. Hopefully I'll have it moved and pics posted later this evening. Its been a busy weekend schedule. Right now I am 45 minutes from home and waiting in a parking lot for the next three hours while my son has practice for drums.


----------



## kitcolebay

Well...

Good and bad...The following pics are today's progress(kinda good news...the jury's still out).  
Bad news is my pond has a leak. That was my biggest fear. I have another game plan to attack it this week. It came after my not-so-gracious round or two of swearing. Thanks to a brainstorming session with my wife and son, my wife headed me into the direction of removing all of the bottom and the rocks on the bottom several inches and bank up the sides with a pretty substantial amount of Great Stuff for ponds. Making sure I have a smooth, clean surface on the side and bottom to adhere to. Worth a try. The rest of my ideas involved a considerable amount of ripping out, rebuilding, and a tremendous amount of cussing!

Here's the pics...

Full frontal...









Left brom...









Right brom...









Right side...









My first frog!(thanks to my son!)...









And LED's...









It looks better if you have a strong imagination and picture it with a waterfall feeding into a pond full of WATER! 

Thanks, Chris.


----------



## kitcolebay

Any thoughts? Are my 2 clearance broms to big for my tank?


----------



## Giga

Yeah I'd say order some cooler smaller species-I just did and you'll be happy you did! Plus with the t5 unit they will color up nicely


----------



## WildcatWalker

i just want to say i love this tank!!! Next week i'm gettting a 120 gal that i'm going to convert into a palu... My only concern is that if you are putting dart frogs in there give them an easy out to get out of the water darts arent really good swimmers so please keep that in mind.. also i have question i have a mixture of spaghnum moss andd eco earth and i'm having a hard time drying it out enough so it can stick to the silicone any suggestions willl the oven method work


----------



## DragonSpirit1185

looks pretty good. I would have used black silicone for the slate pieces on the front tho


----------



## fieldnstream

WildcatWalker said:


> i have a mixture of spaghnum moss andd eco earth and i'm having a hard time drying it out enough so it can stick to the silicone any suggestions willl the oven method work


I have done this many times and it definitely works. Leaving the door to the oven ajar is crucial...the moisture needs to be able to escape. Another thing to keep in mind is that opening the cells of the foam (i.e. carving it) will make the covering substance bond much more readily. The keys are: open foam, thick layer of bonding agent (titebond II is the best/easiest I have found...by far the best), and very dry coco/peat. You really can't go wrong with this method as long as you follow the steps.


----------



## kitcolebay

I got all the rocks and sand removed. I've scraped the silicone and GS out. After seeing how the silicone didn't bond with the "pond wall" and the GS didn't seem to have much bite, then I've researched a little more and decided to try marine epoxy putty to seal it. Sound good or have any better ideas?
Yes, I definitely wish I would have went black for the slate to the front wall. I thought "clear" would match the glass and make a smoother transition. I was wrong. With the light hitting it, it stands out sorely.
I did remove the big brom from the left. I moved the smaller(yet still big) brom from the right and put it on the left. 
I still plan on making it up to FrogDay(if finances allow) and buy a lot of appropriate plants for it.
I installed one of my two fans on the inside facing the front glass. I still plan to mount my other fan at the back of the canopy to pull air out.
I also mounted my temp/humidity sensor unit.
Tomorrow I get to help my step-daughter move. So, no more work until Wednesday.


----------



## kitcolebay

I think I have issues. Lol. This is my first viv. I have the humidity and temp monitor going and it tells me it is only 32%, give or take. I have troubles believing it considered it has the glass canopy on it(still planning on cutting a vent/screen portion at rear for fan/air circulation. I have the waterfall/creek going, the "pond", I had the fogger/humidifier going yesterday afternoon, and the glass is remaining covered. I have a fan mounted inside tilted towards the front glass and it is only clearing the first couple inches directly in front of it. I placed the sensor probe at the top center. Would there be a better place to put it? Surely, it can't make that much of a difference...for example, actually be 32% at top and 80%+ at bottom, would it? Defective monitor? It is a brand new Sunleaves digital one from Josh's.
A poor pic of what it looks like unplanted this morning.


----------



## kitcolebay

I also posted in the plant forums for any tips or advise on my initial plant selection that I bought yesterday.
Here is a link to that thread...http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/82553-my-first-plants-my-first-viv.html


----------



## Shibumi

The sensor should be low in the tank, where the frogs live. Thats the reading you want. There is a salt test you can do on your hygrometer, for it's accuracy. SALT TEST

Great viv!


----------



## kitcolebay

Thank you! I did end up figuring out my rookie mistake. The "sensor" goes on the outside for the "outdoor" temp reading and the unit itself goes in the viv. I have it sitting on the rock ledge over the pond and it shows 87% and 80 degrees right now. I still have to fine tune it and monitor it to keep it in the appropriate ranges. For example, I have all 8 80w T5's on right now...I imagine overkill. Lol. So, I'll watch the temps and raise it or shut it down to 2,4, or 6 bulbs. I also plan on mounting my other fan. Just haven't decided where to place it yet. In the tank facing the glass too? Or mounted in the rear with an opening to pull fresh air in or pull old air out?
I was hoping to get started planting this morning, but work already called me in. As of now, I'm still planning on driving up to FrogDay tomorrow morning, but my checkbook is arguing that it's a bad idea. If I don't make it, then it'll be a day of planting. I'm still hoping to get a little feedback on my initial selection before I do plant, so I don't make too many mistakes or have to do a bunch of replanting.
Thanks again to everyone for their help and support!


----------



## kitcolebay

Quick, not-so-good, pics before I run out the door to fetch dinner. 


























If you can see the pics well, any suggestions or comments?

Be back shortly...after dinner and cleaning up my messes...lol.

Thanks, Chris.


----------



## Giga

That looks really awesome only thing is the pond looks a little to symmetrical for my taste, but really cool none the less


----------



## kitcolebay

Yeah, I've been regretting the pond...
The thought has already crossed my mind to put a false bottom in/over the pond and make more usable for space for the leucs.
A little more thinking to figure out the best way to get what I want.

Ok...30 minutes later. I'm thinking I can just use more rocks to fill in the "pond" to make a false bottom at the appropriate height, use landscape fabric, then ABG. I'll leave a pile of rocks for the water to fall on/through. That way I can still have water pumping from below to power the waterfall and creek through the 2 canister filters.

Oh, then I can remove the tacky silicone from the top of the slate pieces. Lol. 

Think this would work well? As always, any suggestions?

Thanks, Chris.


----------



## kitcolebay

Next question...(I'm always full of 'em)...

How long should I wait before adding my leucs? I heard several opinions at FrogDay. From doing a search, I saw the thread that says it's just important to wait long enough for the plants to root themselves if the frogs are big enough to move them. I got me some itsy-bitsy leucs...assuming they are no threat to rearranging the plants. Safe to add now(or after the possible pond alterations)?

-Chris


----------



## goof901

how long have the leucs been quarantined and how old are they?


----------



## fieldnstream

Hey Chris,
One of the main things to consider when introducing froglets to such a large tank is the availability/ease of access to food items. When you are dealing with small froglets, it is a much better idea to keep them in a smaller growout so they can find food easily. You can also keep an eye on their health much more easily in a simple growout. If you are planning on sending fecal samples out, the growout will make collection much easier as well. If you do decide to introduce your frogs, I would highly recommend setting up feeding stations (pieces of banana) so the froglets have a better chance of finding food. Still, it would be best to get some size on the frogs before putting them in such a large viv. 
Good Luck!


----------



## kitcolebay

The leucs are 12-14 weeks old. I bought them from Amanda from AZDR. Should I still have them fecal tested? If I remember correctly, Amanda said she has owned the parenting couple for many years.
Thankfully, there were many very helpful people at FrogDay today and several had made the suggestion to set up a feeding station or two with a piece of banana(already made it to the store for bananas, a mushroom, and a coconut). Thanks to Jon H., I have also put in a couple containers of springtails and isopods.
I do have the froglets in rubbermaid type container about the size of a casserole/cake pan. I put in damp papertowels, some ABG, some pothos, and the stuff that came in the containers with the frogs(not sure what it was).
I also bought a container of fruit flies along with the kit to make the cultures from Josh's Frogs. Shall I go ahead and feed them now? How much...about the size of a dime? How often...twice a week? Or more since they are younger?
Sorry...I know I have too many questions at times. 
Thanks, Chris.


----------



## goof901

this should help
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/78887-how-many-melanogasters-feed-leuc-froglet.html


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks Goof! Definitely helps!

I'm so excited about having these lil' guys and so nervous that something will go wrong! Looking forward to giving them a good home(hopefully)!

-Chris


----------



## kitcolebay

OK...no more pond!

Pond filled...









Right side w/no pond...









Left side w/no pond...









Center w/fog started...









Same w/LED's...









Whatcha think? Better? 

I think my new little friends are getting upset with me. They've been watching me work and don't get to do the walk-thru of their new home yet. Lol.

-Chris.


----------



## fieldnstream

Waaaaaay better without the pond! You are well on your way to having an amazing dart tank Chris!


----------



## kitcolebay

Thank you Field...very much!

I'm trying...and learning!

Always up for more suggestions and criticism.

I wanna do right by my new friends, #1-6. Who better to tell me what needs improving than y'all? I'm very appreciative of all the help, advice, and suggestions!

-Chris.


----------



## DragonSpirit1185

maybe some leaf litter would be good for the microfauna and if the frogs want to hide quick.
Those bamboo style plants kinda take away form the tropical feel a bit.
But if you like them go for it 
Looks really good tho


----------



## Shibumi

kitcolebay said:


> Thank you! I did end up figuring out my rookie mistake. The "sensor" goes on the outside for the "outdoor" temp reading and the unit itself goes in the viv. I have it sitting on the rock ledge over the pond and it shows 87% and 80 degrees right now. I still have to fine tune it and monitor it to keep it in the appropriate ranges. For example, I have all 8 80w T5's on right now...I imagine overkill. Lol. So, I'll watch the temps and raise it or shut it down to 2,4, or 6 bulbs. I also plan on mounting my other fan. Just haven't decided where to place it yet. In the tank facing the glass too? Or mounted in the rear with an opening to pull fresh air in or pull old air out?
> I was hoping to get started planting this morning, but work already called me in. As of now, I'm still planning on driving up to FrogDay tomorrow morning, but my checkbook is arguing that it's a bad idea. If I don't make it, then it'll be a day of planting. I'm still hoping to get a little feedback on my initial selection before I do plant, so I don't make too many mistakes or have to do a bunch of replanting.
> Thanks again to everyone for their help and support!


Much better with the pond filled in.

I don't understand why the sensor IN the viv is not working for you. It should give you the option to read both "indoor" and "outdoor" with the sensor in the viv and the unit outside it (outdoor reading, being your viv and indoor being your home). The whole point is to put the sensor out of your window to read the temp and humidity outside, while the unit stays in the house for you to read. Right? So in theory, the sensor in your viv should give you the outdoor reading on the unit.


----------



## kitcolebay

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> maybe some leaf litter would be good for the microfauna and if the frogs want to hide quick.
> Those bamboo style plants kinda take away form the tropical feel a bit.
> But if you like them go for it
> Looks really good tho


It's a little hard to see, but I do have some leaf litter filling up the left side, some in the back of the center(behind the coco huts), and a little bit on the right. I thought it looked nice to leave a small mossy portion in the front uncovered. Should I cover it all with leaf litter?

As far as the bamboo, I was on the fence about leaving it in or out after I covered the pond. I may pull it out. I may leave it in...lol. My wife likes bamboo and I've tried to make this a family project and get my wife's and kids opinions on most of what I've been doing. So, some things may not look quite proper, but if the frogs don't mind and the family likes, then it'll probably stay.

I'd love to build it so it's a great/safe home for the frogs, my wife and kids love it, I really enjoy it, and it gets great reviews and approvals from you all on here that know your s#it!

-Chris.


----------



## kitcolebay

Shibumi said:


> I don't understand why the sensor IN the viv is not working for you. It should give you the option to read both "indoor" and "outdoor" with the sensor in the viv and the unit outside it (outdoor reading, being your viv and indoor being your home). The whole point is to put the sensor out of your window to read the temp and humidity outside, while the unit stays in the house for you to read. Right? So in theory, the sensor in your viv should give you the outdoor reading on the unit.


The "outdoor" sensor for this unit only does temp, not humidity. It'd be nice if it read both. I would like it better with just the tiny sensor camouflaged inside and the display sitting nicely outside of the tank somewhere. I imagine that it is originally made for the household and not terrariums. I ordered it from Josh's frogs and like it with it looks, the larger display, and the price. Once again, I'm a rookie, so I'll live and learn about some various products and keep my eyes open for one that I may like better. For now, this one is working great.


----------



## kitcolebay

I've already asked this in the beginner threads, but thought I'd post it here too since it follows my build and learning curve(lol)...

Will this be ok for a temp tank until they are ready for a bigger home?










Another question...I've done searches on it and haven't really found a optimal humidity level to keep for the leucs. There's quite a bit about what is ok, but while I'm still fine tuning and waiting for them to grow a little more, I'd like to get it as good as I can for them. Right now, even with top cracked on my big tank, the humidity is running around 92-95%. Shall I cut a small portion in the back to screen over for more circulation? I have one fan installed on the inside facing the glass and I haven't installed my other fan yet. Wasn't sure on the best placement. Shall I mount it inside also towards the front glass or place it at the rear over an opening to push or pull fresh air?


----------



## kitcolebay

*My new babies...*

I'll be trying to leave them alone and have their space to get comfortable, but I had get a couple pics to shoe off my new babies. Lol.


----------



## highvoltagerob

The tank is goin to be awesome for those little guys. I like the pond filled in much better. Good work.


----------



## Brian317

Your tank is super nice and your Leucs look great!! I agree it looks better with the pond filled in, alot of room for you Leucs to do their thing!


----------



## DragonSpirit1185

kitcolebay said:


> I've already asked this in the beginner threads, but thought I'd post it here too since it follows my build and learning curve(lol)...
> 
> Will this be ok for a temp tank until they are ready for a bigger home?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Another question...I've done searches on it and haven't really found a optimal humidity level to keep for the leucs. There's quite a bit about what is ok, but while I'm still fine tuning and waiting for them to grow a little more, I'd like to get it as good as I can for them. Right now, even with top cracked on my big tank, the humidity is running around 92-95%. Shall I cut a small portion in the back to screen over for more circulation? I have one fan installed on the inside facing the glass and I haven't installed my other fan yet. Wasn't sure on the best placement. Shall I mount it inside also towards the front glass or place it at the rear over an opening to push or pull fresh air?


that looks like about a 29 or 30 gallon so I think it should be fine.Or maybe I am wrong and it is just a 10 but as long as it is just for a brief period it should be fine.
The humidity needs to be that high. 
There is lots of people that don't even have any kinds of vent or anything. 
If you have fans you don't really have to vent and the air can be exchanged a bit when you open the viv. 
Yeah I would put a fan in the back opposite side of the water feature of course


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Hey Chris, it was really nice meeting you at Frog Day. I just had one quick question. Is the "old pond" connected to the false bottom? Or is it still designed to hold water? My concern is that over time that part of the substrate will be come waterlogged because there is nowhere for the water to drain.


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks guys for all the advice!

The temp tank is just a 10 gallon. I'd like to put them in the 150 gallon as soon as they are ready. If I understand correctly, the 10 gallon is just my "growout tank" until they are old enough and big enough to navigate and find food in the 150(I'll be setting up 1 or 2 feeding stations).

As far as the pond goes, I did connect the pond with the false bottom so I have 6 inches of water underneath all of it that flows through the canister filters and back up through the waterfall/creek. I didn't want any water just sitting idle or building up. No siphoning. 
I just got home and with the front lids cracked open all day and the fan going inside the tank, it is still holding at 95% humidity. Lights shut off a little over an hour ago and it is still 77 degrees.

Thanks again for the compliments...means a lot coming from you experienced froggers!


----------



## kitcolebay

My new friends have been in their tank for a week now and seem to love it. Climbing all over the place. They definitely love hanging around the water feature, climbing the vines, they have their favorite plants, and already hanging out in the homemade coco hut condos. I've made a few slight changes to the plants over the last week or two. Some are already taken off and I've already pulled a struggling begonia. Video and pics done with phone, so not the best quality.

Here is a short video I did the other day. The leucs calling are not mine. I happened to be watching a youtube video when I decided to turn around and hit the video button on my phone.
Phone video video by kitcolebay - Photobucket

4 of the 6 grouped up...









On the rocks...









About to leap...









...onto the hut.









Feeding time...









My fancy fogger and self-made outlet/switch center(outlets mounted behind the switches.









Filters and pumps...









Valves to control mist lines and "rain" head...









Any suggestions and/or comments very welcome!

Thanks, Chris.


----------



## kitcolebay

Oh, and I know I mentioned this is my FIRST build..

I bought another tank with stand last weekend! Haha. I have it in storage for now. It is a 90-100 gallon that I picked up for $40. I'm already toying with switching my 120 gallon saltwater tank in my living room into a vivarium too. I really enjoy the learning and building process. 
The frogs are great new pets to observe too. My wife says that she has no interest in them. I'm laughing my backside off because she is always looking in on the leucs and trying to find them all. She actually woke me up this morning to tell me all 6 are out and about. Lol. She also didn't put up any resistance at all when I talked converting one of our saltwater tanks into a viv for my frogs. (She wants "blue" ones!)
Now to think for another 6 months about the next design while I wait for my daughters stuff to move out of the garage(my workspace)! 

-Chris


----------



## winstonamc

looks really great with the pond filled in. Have you thought about a longish, relatively thin piece of driftwood wt some broms coming out of what was the pond? Also, some nice vining cuttings to grow up the walls would probably look awesome in a few months time. 
Looking much more natural now, looking forward to seeing it grow in.

Also, awesome job with the plumbing, especially for a first build!


----------



## kitcolebay

Thank you Winstonamc! I may have to keep an eye open for a piece of driftwood that would look good across the middle. I had one that is in a "V" shape that was in the pond before I pulled it out. I like the idea of keeping a little open moss-covered area in the front, but adding a little more terrain and climbing area for them would be nice.

I do have some vine/crawling plants in some areas. Creeping Jenny and pilea on back wall are already starting to grab and spread. I took some cuttings of wandering jew and placed in two spots on back wall and on one spot on the old "pond" wall. I have one small planter with some english/variegated ivy that hope will spread along my self-made vines/misting lines. Although the ivy doesn't look too well at the moment. I hadn't realized that the roots started to pull out of the substrate and it started to dry out. I have the roots well covered now and well watered. Fingers crossed. I really love the look of the creeping jenny on the wall. I thought about getting more.


----------



## kitcolebay

My thoughts are running wild(and will do so for the next 6 months or so) about my next setup. I will be doing another big tank. Either my 90 gallon in storage or my 120 gallon saltwater tank. I think I have settled on Borja Ridge vents for my next frogs. If I understand correctly, they are another frog that does great in groups. Please correct me if I'm mistaken or if you happen to have anymore suggestions and frogs that do great in groups.

If there is no reason not to go with the "Borja Ridge", then is there any suggestions from knowledge/experience for key features to focus on when building their tank?

One more thought, if this is going to lead up to my next build, then should I start a new thread instead of adding onto this one?

Thanks, Chris


----------



## orgetorix13

I know this is a little late in the game, but I just came upon this thread and I think it's important.

Back to the EPDM liners... I would like to point out that there IS a difference in liners marketed for ponds and others. This information comes from someone who has worked in rubber chemistry for over 10 years, and currently makes rubber for every conceivable application. 

For everyone who is reading this, cured rubber sheeting is safe for fish/amphibians/etc. whether it is made from EPDM, PVC, NBR, SBR, etc. There is nothing in the polymer itself that will harm your animals, once it is cured (which all liners are).

EPDM is used in aquatic applications due to it's water resistance. And price, but that's not really important here.

There is a huge BUT here. An EPDM (or PVC etc.) liner is not pure EPDM. In my experience, it's only about 50% polymer. The remaining 50% will be filler (carbon black, silica), color, plasticizers (oil), cure agents, antioxidants, antiozonants, processing aids, fungicides, etc. Some of these ingredients will ABSOLUTELY KILL EVERYTHING IN YOUR TANK.

The only real one to worry about is the fungicide/biocide. They are designed to migrate to the surface and prevent the growth of algae, bacteria or whatever. In a small environment it will concentrate and become much more powerful, killing everything in the tank.

An example of this was a military application where a mere 10% in biocide (about .1% increase in total material volume) resulted in killing off almost the entire population of fish in a test bay in San Diego.

If you live in California, you are luckier than most when it comes to this stuff. Intense environmental regulations make it very cost prohibitive to use the normally very cheap, but powerful additives. In the rest of the country, good luck.

If a product is marketed as proper for use in ponds, you are probably OK. If for pools, roofing etc. I would be VERY VERY cautious. The only real chance you have is that it is really old and the biocides have all migrated out, or they never put it in in the first, place.

I'm not trying to scare people unnecessarily but this should be the last word on rubber liners. It is possible to have material tested for biocide but it is very cost prohibitive (+$1000 per test).

Regrds,

Michael


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks Michael for all the knowledge shared!

I'll explain further what I have and let me know if you think I should worry.

I used probably less that one sq. ft. of pool liner. It has been stored for several years and was never submersed in a pool. The frogs come in very little contact with the water itself(maybe the occasional drop from the splashes). All of the water(appr. 38-40 gallons) is cycled through two canister filters. All misting and watering (enough to keep water topped off from evaporation) is done with fresh RO water.

Frogs and plants have been in the tank for about a month. All seems good so far, except for a begonia and some ivy that I've been killing.

Whatcha think? Safe to leave everything in place or panic and tear all apart?

Thanks, Chris.


----------



## orgetorix13

IMO, if you've been up an running for a month with no issues, you are probably OK. It sounds like your liner had no algaecides to begin with. Death would be pretty quick. I would estimate as soon as even a day.

So, breathe a sigh of relief and keep the pics coming!


----------



## kitcolebay

orgetorix13 said:


> IMO, if you've been up an running for a month with no issues, you are probably OK. It sounds like your liner had no algaecides to begin with. Death would be pretty quick. I would estimate as soon as even a day.
> 
> So, breathe a sigh of relief and keep the pics coming!


Thank you again....Whew! 

-Chris


----------



## kitcolebay

Just because I like it...








And a month later with a couple more plants and tiny bit of growth...









One of these days I'll get some quality pics with an actual camera instead of my phone. I'd like to get somewhat of a panorama pic that will get a decent pic of the 6 ft. of tank without the stand and lights.


----------



## slipperheads

That nice stone adds a really unique spiritual touch to the setup. So nice.


----------



## hockeyboy

Looks good


----------



## Alegre323

looks awesome. very nice. any update?


----------



## kitcolebay

Thanks! 

About 3 months ago I started a new thread to consolidate my progress so far, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/88394-kitcolebays-thread.html. It has a more recent picture, but some of the plants have changed(removed, rearranged, and filled out). I'll try to post another update soon.

Thanks again for the compliment!

-Chris


----------

