# What water should I use?



## k8tbaby

Do dart frog require reverse osmosis water? How do most people treat their water before misting dart frogs?


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## Guest

leave tap water out for 24 to let the metals and minerals evaporate


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## gary1218

I don't think the metals & minerals will evaporate. Usually the tap water is left to stand for a while for the chlorine in the water to dissapate.


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## bluedart

honor_your_life said:


> leave tap water out for 24 to let the metals and minerals evaporate


Minerals and Solids can only evaporate under conditions that would have left water vaporized 1000's of degrees before.

It allows the chlorine and other chemicals in the water that might be harmful to frogs to evaporate. But, we usually prefer to err on the side of caution, and use spring water, or reverse osmosis.


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## k8tbaby

Can I just buy a regular water filter that hooks to my faucet?


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## bluedart

The ones that do what's necessary are WAY too expensive to do what ya need it to do. Honestly, I would just buy spring water if you've only got a few frogs, or are only getting a few frogs. That's your best option. 1 dollar a gallon for your frogs health. Isn't that worth it to ya? :wink:


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## themann42

is spring the same as distilled?


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## Guest

themann42 said:


> is spring the same as distilled?


no, spring water contains minerals and trace elements, while distilled is the purest form of water available, striped of everything.

I fill the pool with spring water during water changes, and use distilled for misting.


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## bluedart

themann42 said:


> is spring the same as distilled?


Distilled, as said before, is pure. It's made by turning the water to steam, and the steam collects (usually on a large cloth, sometimes on massive sheets of metal) and drips into recepticles. Usually done 2+ times. It lacks almost everything but H2O. Spring water is collected from an actual spring, and has everything in it that the spring had in it.


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## Dancing frogs

bluedart said:


> themann42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> is spring the same as distilled?
> 
> 
> 
> Spring water is collected from an actual spring, and has everything in it that the spring had in it.
Click to expand...

Uhhh...I'd hate to see what they'd charge for it if that were true.
Most "spring water" is just really good well water, which is essentially the same thing.

There are also brands that claim to be "spring water" but on the ingredients it shows distilled water, plus minerals to improve taste.


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## Guest

yeah we live on the south side of mt. shasta... mt. shasta springwater, just like any other springwater, is pumped from deep aquifers, then through an RO machine or otherwise, and then resalted to give the "springwater" flavor... same stuff nestle will be selling soon in fact, and sparklets already does...


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## k8tbaby

The grocery store by my house sells spring water and reverse osmosis water. Which one would be better for my frogs and plants?


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## npaull

I would go with distilled water, for a couple of reasons. It's often (not always) cheaper, and you know what's in it. You can always add a drop of blackwater extract, a tiny bit of "tadpole tea" water, etc. to get a few more solutes in the water if you are going to be using it in a dish or something. If it's put in a water feature it will fill up with normal solutes so quickly that it's rarely an issue (btw, the only reason it would theoretically be an issue is if a frog/tad sat in distilled water for a very long time. Because it's pure, it might do screwy things to cells because of osmolarity issues). Because it's pure, distilled is always better to spray tanks with (no streaks).

Some spring water is high in nitrogen, and you never really know what "spring" it came from. I have heard reliable stories of some grocery outlets filling up "spring" water bottles from taps in the store, and I wouldn't bat an eye if I learned some major companies do just that. My personal guess is that a lot of spring water is a total hoax; plus it is incredibly costly in terms of energy, etc. It's actually really bad for the environment, compared to tap water.

Anyway, in a nutshell: i think you can be *more* sure of distilled.


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## k8tbaby

Is distilled water the same as reverse osmosis? Thanks!

Katie


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## npaull

The process by which the two are made is different, but I believe the end product is pretty much the same (depending on what type of membranes/filters are used in the RO process). Basically, pure water is pure water, doesn't matter how you get there.

Distilled water is boiled, and the steam is funneled through an enclosed chamber, condensing on the cooler material, until it flows into a vessel or holding tank. 

Reverse osmosis water is forced through various semipermeable membranes, leaving solutes and suspended particles on one side, and pure water on the other. At least that's the general idea.

I don't think it much matters which you use; for small applications, distilled might be cheaper, but for large volumes/long times, RO may be cheaper in the long run.


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## npaull

BTW in my first post (a few above) I should have said some spring water is high in nitrates/nitrites (can't remember which); nitrogen itself is of course a harmless, inert gas.


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## Guest

GENERALLY, its not recomended that you use distilled water for any amphibian, becuasue the lack of solutes messes up the osmatic balance (amphibians have extremely permeable skin, since water moves from areas of less ion concentration to areas of greater, we can see why distilled water could be a bad choice). However, if you use spring (or even worse, tap) water in your misting system it will clog the nozzles faster. Now, spring water wont clog them as fast as tap, but distilled is still the best. In such small quatities such as mist it really cant cause any harm. Its also good for misting becuase when it evaporates it leaves behind far less minerals than other waters.

As far as reverse osmosis and distilled water go, Im pretty sure that they're almost the same thing, but RO water may be purer. This part I am unsure about though, so someone else will have to give a definitive answer.


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## defaced

Distilled is generally considered to be the pureist, with RO in a close second, though like everything, there isn't a true "magic bullet". Here's a very good link describing the aspects of many different kinds of water purification. Link

IMO, the differences between distilled and RO water for *our* application is trivial. We need great water, but not ultra-pure-we're-using-this-to-make-pharmaceuticals-or-similar pure.



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## Frogtofall

defaced said:


> Distilled is generally considered to be the pureist, with RO in a close second, though like everything, there isn't a true "magic bullet". Here's a very good link describing the aspects of many different kinds of water purification. Link


According to that link, RO is more pure. As well as from my reef keeping/fish tank keeping days, I always used RO for the purest source of water.


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## defaced

Where are you reading that it says it's more pure? I read no conclusions at all on that page. Please quote it. In fact, is says that it's economical and easy, but only removes "Effectively removes all types of contaminants to *some* extent (particles, pyrogens, microorganisms, colloids and dissolved inorganics)." Some extent, not completely. "Reverse osmosis (RO) is the most economical method of removing 90% to 99% of all contaminants."



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## Frogtofall

*First paragraph of RO*
"Reverse osmosis (RO) is the most economical method of *removing 90% to 99% of all contaminants*. The pore structure of RO membranes is much tighter than UF membranes. *RO membranes are capable of rejecting practically all particles, bacteria and organics >300 daltons molecular weight (including pyrogens). *In fact, reverse osmosis technology is used by most leading water bottling plants."

*Distillation section*
"Distillation is probably the oldest method of water purification. Water is first heated to boiling. The water vapor rises to a condenser where cooling water lowers the temperature so the vapor is condensed, collected and stored. Most contaminants remain behind in the liquid phase vessel. *However, there can sometimes be what is called carry-overs in the water that is distilled.* *Organics such as herbicides and pesticides, with boiling points lower than 100 °C cannot be removed efficiently and can actually become concentrated in the product water.* Another disadvantage is cost. Distillation requires large amounts of energy and water.

Distilled water can also be very acidic, having a low pH, thus should be contained in glass. Since there is not much left, distilled water is often called “hungry” water. It lacks oxygen and minerals and has a flat taste, which is why it is mostly used in industrial processes."



Maybe I'm interpreting it incorrectly??


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## defaced

Here's how I read it: 

Distilled: removes everything but organics with a boiling point less than 100C , which may or may not be present

RO: removes most of all kinds of compounds but residual will be left in the end product. 

Interpreting it this way, distilled would be the purist unless certian organics are present. If qualifying organics are present, then they will be in the end product. RO will always leave somethings behind. 

So if one were to take an organic free water source and purify it with both methods the distilled would be the purist. If one were to take a water source with organics, then it is inconclusive using this information as to which one is purist. 

Again, this is my interpretation.



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## Frogtofall

Well, I'll tell you this. Maybe it will help focus in on my opinion of RO.

I just moved to Florida from Il. In Il, I used to work for a Laboratory called, FerroPfanstiehl Labs. I worked in the carbohydrate dept. What we did basically was purify carborhydrates via different processes. Our regulated product was to be of the purity that it could be used in intravenous medicines. Cancer drugs and things of the sort have you. Our job was heavly mandated by FDA law/rules and the ONLY water that was allowed to even be NEAR our product was RO water.

Although I will say, that our RO water also was UV sterilized and went through a DI unit as well. But we never even considered using Distilled. And we most definately had the means to make it I'll tell you that. As a matter of fact, we made it quite often, but it was let down the drain.


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## defaced

Interesting. Makes me wonder what the reasoning behind choosing one over the other was. If it was a purity, facilities (quantity/economic), or some other reason. Something a simple as RO is the only thing that removes xyz which happens to be critical to that application would force the decision in one direction or another. Though that's just speculation on my part and could/likely be in all reality for some other reason. 

I used to work in plasmapheresis so I follow what you're saying abou the FDA, but from what I've read of their lovely regulations they usually don't specify process, but instead the quality the end product must meet. Makes me wonder if it was a company choice to go with RO or if there was a measureable difference between the two for that application. 

But does it really matter here? I'm of the opnion that it really doesn't, but that's for each individual to decide.



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## Frogtofall

defaced said:


> But does it really matter here? I'm of the opnion that it really doesn't, but that's for each individual to decide.


Good point...haha :lol:


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## Guest

Interesting thread.

As pointed out indirectly....not all RO nor distilled water equal even to itself.

For RO, it depends on the filtering membranes and then if it goes to the stages of DI and/or UV.

Distilled is dependant on single or double distilling and the environment.

I would say that for a general discussion that either RO and distilled is for all purposes here "about" the same. The single biggest reason I can think of using it is for the convience of the frog owner and some plants such as orchids for example.

It (RO/distilled) doesn't have much, if any minerals, thus doesn't clog misting nozzles, etch the glass of tanks, leave damaging salts on tender plants. Generally accepted it will pick up contaminants in the tank, thus poses not lasting threat to frogs.

Not a good soaking water put directly in a dish. Easy to use other treated water for this purpose or combine with and/or treat as mentioned.

My spin on the subject.


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## Ed

RO and DI are only a problem with amphibians if they are set up so that the amphibians cannot get out of the water. It is typically okay to use with tadpoles as other substances that contain solutes are added to the water. 

Misting systems, sprayers etc are going to expose the frog to insufficient amounts of the water to cause issues. 

Ed


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## Guest

Oops! I keep other frogs, some which soak in water a good partion of the time. I was thinking of them when I mentioned water dishes, etc.

I would think that most dart frogs aren't sitting around in water dishes most of the time.


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## Enlightened Rogue

Distilled for me, for misting and water dish. I`ve read many books saying yes and no to distilled water. The breeder I get most of my supplies from only uses distilled.


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## Guest

Could you just take regular tap water and purify it using the chemicals they sell at fish stores that take out all the harmful chemicals? Because I had a reef tank and I would just take regular tap and mix it with AquaSafe. It seemed to work fine.


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## Frogtofall

When I do use tap water, I put Amquel in it.


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## Guest

Do you use a filter in the water, or just a normal water pump or powerhead to move the water?


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## Guest

I have a RO unit at the house and I am on a well... should I used the RO unit or get spring water?


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## Guest

Here is a point to ponder... maybe someone from your species of darts home could bottle the water from the rainforest ... then you will have your perfect water for your darts. :wink:


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## Guest

*How about filtered water?*

I have a Brita fixture where I get water for my orchids. The company literature says the filter removes significant quantities of minerals and organics although it doesn't approach RO. I also use the Brita water in my warm humidifier that runs 24/7 in my orchid room. About once a month i have to change Brita filter and also clean calcium-like deposits off the heating element in the humidifier. Obviously the Bita filter isn't getting everything but do you think it's getting enough to use it with frogs? I just built my first vivarium (yet to get frogs) and used distilled so far.


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## Guest

Heres the sum up of the thread for those too lazy to read, minus the speculation:

RO water is water that has been forced through a cardon filter to remove things like heavy metals which, over a prolonged period of time, can build up in fish and kill them. it is then sent through a filter called a membrane, which can differ in micron sizes but 150 microns is usually plenty, which takes out physical particals and practically everything else. DI is dionization functions of the charges of particals and some other wichcraft which removes the other 9-10% of the remaining impurities. Water comes out of a system with about .01 ppt as measured with a total dissolved solids meter, it comes in at a high 1.7. There is nothing left in RO/DI water but water for all intents and purposes.

RO/DI water is run through the RO unit first to break up the strain on the DI unit, which can be exhausted very quickly if used without running it through the RO first. RO/DI water comes out dead neutral at 7.0, but is easily unfluenced to become acidic due to waste decompisition in the water. I would reccomend using some kind of RO mineral replenisher so you don't have to worry about your water sinking down to a pH of about 5. You can buy RO water in any good fish store for 50 cents a gallon easily. 

You can buy DI filters at most quality fish stores but I would expect to only get about 100 gallons out of most of them. DI only units are very quick at making water but become exhausted quickly. You can buy replacement DI cartrigdes for them at the same fish store. Depending on the size of your water feature a DI only unit is probably pretty affordable.

I'm pretty new to amphibians but I'm fairly certain you can also get away with using tap water. Only letting the water sit for 24 hours though will only evaporate the chlorines out of the water. Chloromines will take a week or more to evaporate. Any simple water conditioner will neutalize both in seconds. If you're concerned about heavy metals you can run carbon in your sump system, or even hide if cleverly somewhere else. The cardon will also remove discoloration and smell. Before you use your tap water I would caution you to get it tested to see where your pH sits. Most wells come out in the high sevens but even run as high as the low eights. I would assume most frogs would appreciate a neutal pH or slightly acidic.

A UV sterilizer is unnessicary to use, especially with RO/DI water. Unless you're pumping water out of your septic tank to use in your fish tank a UV sterilizer is redundant. UV sterlizers are useful for things like Koi ponds or really filthy fresh or saltwater preditor tanks where disease might be a concern.

Things like Brita filters or other drinking water purifiers are a small about of physical filtration and carbon to remove any kind of chlorine taste from your water. Don't go out and buy one of you don't already have it, its more of a gimmick than anything for paranoid people.


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## stchupa

If you plan to live a year or longer get the best RO system you can find, $300 for a system to start gives you 2,500+ G., v.s. $1 a G. a lifetime= a huge waste of money-$.12 a gallon at the most camparable. The filters may run 50-$100 at the most depending on the system after that $0.4 a G. at the very most for future cost, not even comparable. No water you can buy, including distilled can be considered pure and no RO filter will create pure, but it may be as close as you will get without immense effort.
Although spring/ distilled will or will not come from a reputible source, regardless there will always be a process were additives will be inegrated in ALL bottled water (usually potassium chloride in spring/drinking water to give a sense of pure). Distilled is nearly identical to RO if you were to remove all the additions to it. Keep in mind pure water has no taste or essence of any kind, and most people are programed to want for what they can taste. If RO is decided upon try not to remove existing water from there enclosure, if possible.


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## stchupa

Ive never heard of true membranes to allow 3-5 ms to pass let alone 150.


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## stchupa

xxmutedyouthxx said:


> I have a RO unit at the house and I am on a well... should I used the RO unit or get spring water?


Do live at a the highest altitude in your region?


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## Guest

I'm a little new to PDF. I've had mine for about 3 months. 

I don't have any sort of mysting system, I just use a squirt bottle a few times a day to make sure the tank is moiste but not wet. I add a bit of declorinator (The kind you use for a fishtank) to the water that I spray... Is this a suitable practice or should I be buying distilled water like some fo your are suggesting?


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## Enlightened Rogue

Distilled water is all I have ever used for my frogs,that includes misting and water dish.


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## Guest

Uuuuuh... Water Dish?
I am indeed a Newbie.......


I've actually been told not to put a water dish in with dart frogs. I've been told that they will drown.


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## Guest

Just a couple of follow ups...

One of the responders wrote:

_ "Things like Brita filters or other drinking water purifiers are a small about of physical filtration and carbon to remove any kind of chlorine taste from your water. Don't go out and buy one of you don't already have it, its more of a gimmick than anything for paranoid people."_

Now I don't consider myself paranoid. When I lived in Asia I ate things I suspect most Americans wouldn't touch. I also take exception to the idea that Brita filters are a "gimick." White the Brita pitchers don't do much, the on-faucet units are 2-stage filters and aren't bad. Among the things it filters:

* 99.99% of Cryptosporidum and Giardia
* 99.7% of Asbestos
* 99% of Lindane (pesticide)
* 99.8% of Trichloroethylene
* 96% of Benzene
* 92% of Atrazine (herbicide)
* 99% of Lead
* TTHM, benzene, TCE, toxaphene, Chlorine, sediment, bad tastes and odors, including sulfur

[/i]


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## BIGGUN

One thing about RO is that the first ????bit of water out of the system from each time it is turned on carries all kinds of contaminants with it. 
This is because when there is no pressure on the membrane it leeches them to equal parts. The first ???? oz. should be disposed of, or only run your filter to produce at least a gal at a time so they can be heavily diluted in the end.

I run an RO/DI for my reeftank that automatically replaces any evaporation daily. I had it on a float switch to start and noticed some corals not doing as well as I thought they should. After hours of reading I figured out that I was pretty much putting a lot of straight tap water in because of the filter turning on and off so often. I then installed a timer in line with the float switch so that when the timer went and the float switch was down the filter would turn on until the water level was correct. This also served as a safety in case the float switch stuck so I wouldn't flood my living room and have to get a divorce  . This way the filter puts out about 2.5 - 3 gals a day all at one time instead of a few oz. at a time 24/7.
After this the corals picked back up. 

I now have the filter tee'd off to my vivarium to make it easy to fill. I'm still researching to see if I'll be adding blackwater extract or anything to it once it's in the tank.

Oh, one last point, RO filters also work better at higher line pressures like 40-45 PSI. It gives less oportunity for nasties to get back through.

Kevin


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## Frogsarethashit

http://www.livingunderworld.org/amphibi ... 0006.shtml


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## Android1313

Wow thats an interesting article. So what they are saying is use either r.o./distilled water mixed with pretreated (dechlorinated) tap water, or spring water?


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## Frogsarethashit

Yes more or less. They are basically saying that reverse osmosis and distilled water AT 100 PERCENT CONCENTRATION is harmful for amphibians, which makes sense if you think back to grade 9 science when you learned about osmosis. Electrolytes flow from an area of high concentration (your frog) to and area of low concentration (reverse osmosis and distilled water). Need I say that is harmful? Personally I have never used reverse osmosis water or distilled with any amphibians, I only use treated tap water and spring water.


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## zBrinks

Ive used R/O water with all the amphibians I ever had. I also use R/O at work on approx. 125 animals. Ive never had any problems. If you were keeping an amphibian in a plastic container w/o substrate and other materials, I could see R/O causing a problem. The leaves, soil, moss, etc leech organics into the water, making it perfectly safe for frogs. I wouldnt recommend soaking an animal in straight R/O water, but for spraying down vivs, my experience tells me its fine.


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## Lucille

I plan on getting an RO system installed in a couple months, it says you can 'do it yourself' but I'd just as soon a plumber do it.
I thought about how it would be good for the terraria, and then also thought back to recent news headlines saying about how there is all sorts of horrible stuff like pharmaceuticals in some city water supplies because when they treat the water, they don't test for that stuff, and that couldn't be good for either the froggies or for me.


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## kyle1745

It all depends on what RO unit you go with. I did all the plumbing for mine and it was not bad. Setting of a storage tank was more work than plumbing for the RO unit.


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## Lucille

kyle1745 said:


> It all depends on what RO unit you go with. I did all the plumbing for mine and it was not bad. Setting of a storage tank was more work than plumbing for the RO unit.


You are talented. But I think I will avoid large insurance claims for water damage and just let the plumber handle it, lol.

I was thinking this morning about RO water as drinking water, would it not have the same adverse effects on us as it would if we soaked a frog in it?


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## tedthefrog

I'm just throwing this out there and It might throw a wrench in the gears of this thread,
But I'm pretty sure that all of the darts we keep still live in the wild. Right?

That being said, isn't it true that a frog would never come in contact with any, absolutely pure water? 100% free of solutes, minerals, and so on...
Im no scientist or anything, but many of these species live near rivers/springs right?

I must be missing something, I mean its obviously a BIG NO to tap water which I understand.
But why purify the water to such an extent?
When it would never be so pure in the wild.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading this because there seems to be no definitive answer.

Thanks


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## basshummper

;131649 said:


> Now I don't consider myself paranoid. When I lived in Asia I ate things I suspect most Americans wouldn't touch. I also take exception to the idea that Brita filters are a "gimick." White the Brita pitchers don't do much, the on-faucet units are 2-stage filters and aren't bad.
> [/i]


haha, when i was in korea i had a brita pitcher because i couldn't stand the taste of the water.


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## DCreptiles

i wouldnt stress the water to much. the frogs are pretty hardy and i mean if you get a decent water filtration would be just fine especially if you let it sit. me i have the water conditoner it was only a few bucks at the reptile expo for the big bottle and it only needs 2 drops for every 8oz's and i mist once to twice a day befor feeding and the 8oz's last almost all week and i keep another 8oz's just for filling up water dishes of my other herps and i even use it in my turtle tank for the entire tank. and it works perfect. and i purchased 6 bottles of hydrate for when i finally get tadpoles cost me about 2.50 each. but befor all the conditioners and bottled water i always used water from the filter built into my fridge and all my animals thrived on it.


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## heatfreakk3

i use water from the faucet and than put these drops of stuff in that takes the clorine out


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## FrogOly

The quality of RO water depends on the quality of the water going in, age of filters etc. The chemicals not removed from distilled water are not typically removed from the RO membrane as well, but RO's usually have carbon filters, and if you are using the right carbon filters you will remove almost all of the volatile organic chemicals(VOC's). The reason RO is used more than distilled is it costs much more to heat water up into steam for distillation. RO or distilled water that is passed through DI filters will be extremely pure. 

Brita filters will remove heavy metals, VOC's for a certain number of gallons. That number of gallons is dependent on the quantity of impurities going into the pitcher, or filter. The filter is generally small compared to RO filters. Filters for RO's should have a WQA or NSA certification for removing harmful contaminants, otherwise it is considered only to remove or reduce chlorine, and improve taste and odor.


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## goin_all_out

K my turn

I'm new to the site and doing my research before I acquire my first frog.

I read this entire thread and the closest thing to a definitive answer was still vague and unclear, hence the input.

So here is my two cents, might be three but we will see what I spew out.

On the purified water debate, (not the RO/distilled one, too many factors come into this, such as quality of the unit) I work in the fishroom of my local major fish store. Although I do lean toward RO water as its readily available (we sell it at 50 cents a gallon, plus my discount ) and I have seen and know the set up very well. 

In a saltwater system, purified water is used, but there is little concern of lost minerals because when the water is mixed with the various salt mixes available on the market, these missing minerals are replenished by this process. However, with freshwater tanks, using pure RO water is not a good idea. Plants, animals and invertebrates need minerals to grow and flourish. fish tend to grow deformed without these minerals. So whats generally recommended is half RO water and half treated tap water to ensure that the minerals are established in the tank.

So would it be safe to assume that mixing half treated tap water and half RO water would be beneficial to all living things in the tank? Even in the misting system?

The reason I ask that is because even plants require some minerals in their water to flourish properly. So one would assume that the misting system would require even some minerals. And with frogs having permeable skin, they would absorb, even a minute amount, would be beneficial.

any thoughts?

(OK, so might have been a little more the three cents even and I apologize for that lol)


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## frogparty

I just use rain water run through a brita to remove particulate.


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## happy dart

Me thinks this is not a life or death situation, that either way it is not going to kill your frogs. If it did, people would have passed on that knowledge to everyone that x water killed my frog. I have not seen any such posts. The only possible way it seems water could kill a frog is in drastic situations/environments, something that all avoid. The most likely cause of death is polluted water. We al know how bad chemicals can be for amphibians, which can cause death pretty fast. So we purify it with an RO system. I feel that dirty water is a lot more harmful than pure water. 

To look at nature, rain in the beginning is pretty pure. I like to think of rain clouds as a giant distiller (evaporated water gas condensing again). This pure water then falls on trees, etc. and drips down the bark. Once we reach the bases of the trees, we find dart frogs, along with the water. Obviously, the water has scavenged some nutrients/particles/etc. from the tree bark on its way down, so it is no longer "aggressive" water, but still fairly pure. Then it hits the soil. Here it picks up A LOT of nutrients and particulates, flows into the rivers, seeps into underground aquifers, etc. But the frogs don't really inhabit this area, they inhabit more the area described earlier, were the water is purer. 

So basically what I am saying is RO water should be fine for a dart frog vivarium. The water will pick what ever it needs from the woods, backgrounds, and substrates we have in our vivariums, just like it would in nature. It won't remain "aggressive" and suck the life from your frog.

Though I am just a newbie, so I could be completely wrong


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## Ed

happy dart said:


> To look at nature, rain in the beginning is pretty pure. I like to think of rain clouds as a giant distiller (evaporated water gas condensing again). This pure water then falls on trees, etc. and drips down the bark. Once we reach the bases of the trees, we find dart frogs, along with the water. Obviously, the water has scavenged some nutrients/particles/etc. from the tree bark on its way down, so it is no longer "aggressive" water, but still fairly pure. Then it hits the soil. Here it picks up A LOT of nutrients and particulates, flows into the rivers, seeps into underground aquifers, etc. But the frogs don't really inhabit this area, they inhabit more the area described earlier, were the water is purer.


Rainwater is anything but clean or pure.. it is a source of nitrate, pesticides, and heavy metals (see for example SpringerLink - Journal Article 
and Pesticides in rainwater in the northeastern United States). 

Ed


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## happy dart

So are you saying that since RO is more pure than rain water, that it shouldn't be used on PDF vivs? Or that now a days rainwater is so polluted that it shouldn't be used? Just in case and to clarify, I never advocated the use of rainwater, I was just using it more as an example, albeit a bad one. 
Sorry!


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## Ed

happy dart said:


> So are you saying that since RO is more pure than rain water, that it shouldn't be used on PDF vivs? Or that now a days rainwater is so polluted that it shouldn't be used? Just in case and to clarify, I never advocated the use of rainwater, I was just using it more as an example, albeit a bad one.
> Sorry!


RO and distilled are fine to use in enclosures. Some of the old literature on the "Harmfulness" of RO/DI water was shown to be due to metal salts contaminating the distilled water in the original papers due to problems in the distilation process. There is a citation in the new issue of Leaf Litter to that effect. 

I was pointing out that Rainwater may not be the water of choice to use anymore.... 

Ed


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## Rmm226

I have a Reverse Osmosis unit hooked up to my sink and it cost me about 200 dollars. You wouldnt believe the stuff it pulls out of my water. The white filter cartridge is now fully brown after like 2 months but the R.O. water works great. You can also buy it in some fish stores they might sell purified or r.o. water. They also sell some cheap units to purify water.


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## netzehual

Hey Guys, I'm new to this, and am getting ready to get my first tank put together. I've been reading over some of these posts, and am kinda confused. My parents have a distiller, so distilled water would not be an issue to me, but could not afford to get a R.O. system or anything- I'm cheap. lol. But some posts say that distilled does not have any of the minerals the frogs need, so spring would be better, right? From what I understand, I will want to have Spring water resevoir, and Distilled to mist. Hope I'm on the right track.

I'm trying to go through the Beginner Threads, and learn as much as possible. 

Any advice- whether replying, email, or IM would be GREATLY appreciated!

Thanks!


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## KaitlinDragon

I've heard that distilled water is the best.


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## Ed

netzehual said:


> Hey Guys, I'm new to this, and am getting ready to get my first tank put together. I've been reading over some of these posts, and am kinda confused. My parents have a distiller, so distilled water would not be an issue to me, but could not afford to get a R.O. system or anything- I'm cheap. lol. But some posts say that distilled does not have any of the minerals the frogs need, so spring would be better, right? From what I understand, I will want to have Spring water resevoir, and Distilled to mist. Hope I'm on the right track.
> 
> I'm trying to go through the Beginner Threads, and learn as much as possible.
> 
> Any advice- whether replying, email, or IM would be GREATLY appreciated!
> 
> Thanks!


To get around some of the water quality issues, a number of us take RO or distilled water and add RO right to it to restore the dissolved minerals and salts to the water. This is called reconstituted RO/DI water and is fine to use in the tank provided you are doing water changes. If you just continue to add water with minerals to the tank, you will eventually get salt buildups on the higher points in the tank as water is drawn up to evaporate. 

The distilled water is fine to use as a misting or adding to the tank to replace water that has evaporated. 

Ed


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## Syspila

Great info to know! With everyone's post, it has helped me!


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## Ed

Frogsarethashit said:


> Yes more or less. They are basically saying that reverse osmosis and distilled water AT 100 PERCENT CONCENTRATION is harmful for amphibians, which makes sense if you think back to grade 9 science when you learned about osmosis. Electrolytes flow from an area of high concentration (your frog) to and area of low concentration (reverse osmosis and distilled water). Need I say that is harmful? Personally I have never used reverse osmosis water or distilled with any amphibians, I only use treated tap water and spring water.


There are actually studies out now that indicate that distilled/RO water is not a problem as was once thought. (For those who are interested I suggest the book Ecologican and Enviormental Physiology of Amphibians). 
It turns out that amphibians including frogs can actively scavenge ions back out of the water. So unless the frog is really sick all it really does is put a bit of metabolic stress on the frog and then only if it cannot get out of the water. This would only happen if you pulled the frog out of the tank and put it in a container like a rubbermaid with a lid.. 

Ed


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## ophis

i work for a auto part supply company an we sell deionized water intended to fill car batteries so deposits don't build up inside. would be really handy if i could use this for my Viv when its finished as i get a nice staff discount on it an we sell it in 25 liter bottles which would make nice water containers. pretty sure this stuffs safe, drank some myself whilst dyeing of thirst from a hangover, didn't suffer any ill affects that i know of at least. plan on getting an RO system eventually but maybe this water is actually better since it goes through the full DI process.


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## Ed

ophis said:


> i work for a auto part supply company an we sell deionized water intended to fill car batteries so deposits don't build up inside. would be really handy if i could use this for my Viv when its finished as i get a nice staff discount on it an we sell it in 25 liter bottles which would make nice water containers. pretty sure this stuffs safe, drank some myself whilst dyeing of thirst from a hangover, didn't suffer any ill affects that i know of at least. plan on getting an RO system eventually but maybe this water is actually better since it goes through the full DI process.


How often are the levels of total dissovled solids tested before replacing the ion absorbtion media? 

Ed


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## ophis

Ed said:


> How often are the levels of total dissovled solids tested before replacing the ion absorbtion media?
> 
> Ed


could'nt say tbh, my work place doesn't make it we just sell it, the brand is carplan tho. i should imagine it goes through stringent quality control tho because any minerals in it would destroy battery cells, an make the product pointless. but i guess it would be better to test it than just assume.


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## joshbaker14t

As an newcomer, I would like to state that most questions posted on this site, often are not answered. Is this hobby still so new that there are not definitive answers?


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## dysphoria

joshbaker14t said:


> As an newcomer, I would like to state that most questions posted on this site, often are not answered. Is this hobby still so new that there are not definitive answers?


It's because there is no consensus on a lot of the questions that are asked(or as often found on forums, people ride on anecdote). The fact is that we are trying to replicate an environment that is incredibly complex, and for animals that are in themselves complex. 

That being said, Ed basically did answer the question in post #67 and #69.
I've personally used RO water in aquariums and in my Vivs without any trouble(<--anecdote). I'd rather use RO/distilled water, than some filtered slag that they sell as spring water, and know for a fact that it's clean. If you are worried about osmotic balance, remineralize your RO/distilled water with any number of products available for the aquarium hobby made just for this purpose(but as Ed said.. you'll have to watch the salt build up -the water evaps, the minerals do not). The only downside to that, is that you don't have full control over what they put in the remineralizer.. so you are kind of in the same boat for impurities and unwanted additives.


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## jeeperrs

ophis said:


> i work for a auto part supply company an we sell deionized water intended to fill car batteries so deposits don't build up inside. would be really handy if i could use this for my Viv when its finished as i get a nice staff discount on it an we sell it in 25 liter bottles which would make nice water containers. pretty sure this stuffs safe, drank some myself whilst dyeing of thirst from a hangover, didn't suffer any ill affects that i know of at least. plan on getting an RO system eventually but maybe this water is actually better since it goes through the full DI process.


I use deionized water for everything, including for my FF cultures.

Oh, I don't test my DI water I buy either.


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## jeeperrs

joshbaker14t said:


> As an newcomer, I would like to state that most questions posted on this site, often are not answered. Is this hobby still so new that there are not definitive answers?


This is a problem for new people. There is more than one right answer in the hobby. What works for some doesn't work for others. Most people on here report what works for their 5 or 10 frogs but something else may work for another persons 5 or 10 frogs. Sometimes it is easier to private message someone for a direct answer. Why? Because their way is often not "the gold standard" on the board. This is one of the problems with a public forum where any person can be an expert


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## Ed

joshbaker14t said:


> As an newcomer, I would like to state that most questions posted on this site, often are not answered. Is this hobby still so new that there are not definitive answers?


Actually there are many discussions that are supported by documented facts and not based on anecdotal or dogmatic answers.... For example, this discussion on water, the dogma, and what the science actually says about it... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html 

The truth is out there if you look.... 

Ed


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## eyeviper

bluedart said:


> Minerals and Solids can only evaporate under conditions that would have left water vaporized 1000's of degrees before.
> 
> It allows the chlorine and other chemicals in the water that might be harmful to frogs to evaporate. But, we usually prefer to err on the side of caution, and use spring water, or reverse osmosis.


They no longer use just chlorine. They use a chlorine compound called a chloramine which is chlorine bound to ammonia. This DOES not evaporate and you HAVE to use a chlorine/ chloramine remover to make tap water safe. frogs, fish, turtles go bye bye if you dont use the remover. 

I would use RO or distilled water with a buffer such as RO right in it. This is to restore some of the electrolites to the water. Other than that frogs dont seem to picky. You can use tap water but Id avoid it with everything that is in it these days. There is a wholeee lot more than just chloramines in it.


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## Ed

eyeviper said:


> This DOES not evaporate and you HAVE to use a chlorine/ chloramine remover to make tap water safe.


Actually the chlorine smell around a swimming pool is not due to free chlorine but chloramine so we can readily demonstrate that it actually does evaporate from solution particularly when the solution is aerated, it just takes much longer to evaporate than chlorine does by itself. 



eyeviper said:


> frogs, fish, turtles go bye bye if you dont use the remover.


Right off the bat, I'm throwing the BS flag on turtles. That is a piece of dogma that has been passed around for a long time without any supporting documentation. In extreme levels, it can irritate the eyes of a chelonian, but you need significant levels well above that found in tapwater systems (like that of a public pool). 


And while chloramines can cause issues with aquatic species (it also depends on the chloramine), and larval amphibians, it depends entirely on a number of conditions.. Typically the one we are looking at is NH2Cl, which is the monomer. Unlike chlorine, it doesn't cause damage to the gills but suffiicent levels (which can be as high as 0.8 ppm Cl (using an accurate test kit) for certain fish (and tap water is often well below that level), are absorbed and bind to the hemoglobin resulting in a form of methemoglobin... There is a real risk if you simply neutralize the chlorine atom (which many dechlorinators do), as it leaves all of the ammonia as free ammonia, and that can actually be more toxic to the animals, then the chloramine originally was..... 

Ed


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## eyeviper

Ed said:


> Actually the chlorine smell around a swimming pool is not due to free chlorine but chloramine so we can readily demonstrate that it actually does evaporate from solution particularly when the solution is aerated, it just takes much longer to evaporate than chlorine does by itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Right off the bat, I'm throwing the BS flag on turtles. That is a piece of dogma that has been passed around for a long time without any supporting documentation. In extreme levels, it can irritate the eyes of a chelonian, but you need significant levels well above that found in tapwater systems (like that of a public pool).
> 
> 
> And while chloramines can cause issues with aquatic species (it also depends on the chloramine), and larval amphibians, it depends entirely on a number of conditions.. Typically the one we are looking at is NH2Cl, which is the monomer. Unlike chlorine, it doesn't cause damage to the gills but suffiicent levels (which can be as high as 0.8 ppm Cl (using an accurate test kit) for certain fish (and tap water is often well below that level), are absorbed and bind to the hemoglobin resulting in a form of methemoglobin... There is a real risk if you simply neutralize the chlorine atom (which many dechlorinators do), as it leaves all of the ammonia as free ammonia, and that can actually be more toxic to the animals, then the chloramine originally was.....
> 
> Ed


Ed you are a god on here. You just raped my seemingly good sense right out of my brain and shoved the real info in. And explained in one well written paragraph why the customers who come into the fish store I work at always have high ammonia despite using a commercial chlorine/chloramine remover before the cycle starts...I thought it was high ammonia content in tap water but alas! It could be high concentration as well as the remover product they used.


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## fishguyturnedfrog

eyeviper said:


> Ed you are a god on here. You just raped my seemingly good sense right out of my brain and shoved the real info in. And explained in one well written paragraph why the customers who come into the fish store I work at always have high ammonia despite using a commercial chlorine/chloramine remover before the cycle starts...I thought it was high ammonia content in tap water but alas! It could be high concentration as well as the remover product they used.


As a primary fish hobbyist, many of the chemicals you use to remove ammonia and other unwanted things in water will give you a false reading of ammonia. You many actually be around 0 ppm for ammonia but tests will give you a much higher reading. I personally have never used anything other than tap water, both well and city waters, with success in some areas and move 10 miles down the road and can't even keep guppies without major issues. Where I live now, I have a very high levels of phosphates which has turned keeping fish into a serious challenge. I still haven't been able to bring myself to buy a R/O system but one of these days I will. As stated before in a previous post, R/O with trace elements added are probably the best route.


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## drewman1962

OK, I'm am a newbie and have been looking and gathering data. Let me see if I put what I think is what I am learning on water. Please feel free to tell me if I am way off base or if my simple mind is on the right track.
The water in your enclosure needs to be safe for our little buddies. I have a three stage filter system on my kitchen sink for drinking and cooking water. That should be fine if aged for my future frogs??
Misting being manual or automated. Should use RO or distilled water. This is really for better maintenence of your enclosure and misting systems. Less build up on the glass and plants and less opprotunities for clogging your misting tips?
Is this even close to being correct??


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## dysphoria

The three stage system on your sink, if it has a larger Carbon block stage, will probably remove chlorine/chloramines. It might be wise to age it still, in case some chlorine makes it through, but aging isn't going to help you with trace chloramines(if your utility uses it). From looking at the hollandbpw water report, it doesn't look like chloramines are used, so you are probably ok on that front.
The RO/Distilled water part above is spot on.. no mineral content means no hard water deposits on glass and plants, and no funk building up inside misting tips


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## drewman1962

dysphoria said:


> The three stage system on your sink, if it has a larger Carbon block stage, will probably remove chlorine/chloramines. It might be wise to age it still, in case some chlorine makes it through, but aging isn't going to help you with trace chloramines(if your utility uses it). From looking at the hollandbpw water report, it doesn't look like chloramines are used, so you are probably ok on that front.
> The RO/Distilled water part above is spot on.. no mineral content means no hard water deposits on glass and plants, and no funk building up inside misting tips


I am actually on a well with very hard water. The whole house goes thru in this order. 

Cloth Filter to remove very large particles. (replaced every 6 months)
120 Gallon Container of Charcoal. (replaced every 3 years)
Water Softener that is automated based on water usage 

Then the kitchen sink has the 3 stage Filter system that tells us when each filter needs replacing based on them getting clogged I think. Otherwise I do not know how it knows which filter needs replacing when.

My water has been tested and no trace of chloramines. Straight from the well very high Iron content and sulfar content (safe for humans they told me, but yuck) My wife does not like to drink the water from the filter part of the kitchen sink (no taste at all) Using it for coffee for over a year and hlf now and no minertal deposits inside of the holding tank on the coffee maker


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## dysphoria

Oh yeah.. on filtered well water, You'll have no chlorine/chloramine to worry about then.


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## Ed

dysphoria said:


> probably remove chlorine/chloramines. It might be wise to age it still,


All water from a pressurized system should be aged to allow it to offgas and reach equilibrium with the enviroment since high levels of dissolved gasses has been linked with gas embolism in some of the literature. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## dysphoria

Indeed. I age all my water - even off my RO system. I hadn't thought about gas exchange being one of the possible benefits though.. good stuff.


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## Gamble

Tap water shouldnt be used not only due to clogging and water stains but over time it can potentially create a film over the plants and slowly kill them off due to a lowered ability of photosynthesis.

Also, from what i understand, mixing RO or distilled in a ratio of 3:1 with treated tapwater is the closest thing you can get to rainwater.

I use distilled for misting & fly cultures ... and treated tap water mixed with tannin water for my tadpoles.


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## Feffie

I'm new to this forum but joined as I'm possibly looking at getting a pair or trio of darts around August.
I do have a few other species of frogs and for their water I just used boiled and cooled water to mist them and for their water dishes.

I obviously don't want to harm any frogs I may get in the future and I'm worried that the method I use won't be sufficient.

I can't afford an RO system or to buy spring water etc as here in the UK it's definatly not the cheapest.

So in short, would I still be able to use my current method with water?


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## Gamble

Feffie said:


> I'm new to this forum but joined as I'm possibly looking at getting a pair or trio of darts around August.
> I do have a few other species of frogs and for their water I just used boiled and cooled water to mist them and for their water dishes.
> 
> I obviously don't want to harm any frogs I may get in the future and I'm worried that the method I use won't be sufficient.
> 
> I can't afford an RO system or to buy spring water etc as here in the UK it's definatly not the cheapest.
> 
> So in short, would I still be able to use my current method with water?


I suggest you atleast, at the minimum, use a water dechlorinating product similarly used by fish keepers.


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## Feffie

Gamble said:


> I suggest you atleast, at the minimum, use a water dechlorinating similarly used by fish keepers.


As far as I am aware boiling water does dechlorinate it or have my 8 or 9 years studying chemistry gone to waste


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## Golden State Mantellas

drewman1962 said:


> I am actually on a well with very hard water. The whole house goes thru in this order.
> 
> Cloth Filter to remove very large particles. (replaced every 6 months)
> 120 Gallon Container of Charcoal. (replaced every 3 years)
> Water Softener that is automated based on water usage
> 
> Then the kitchen sink has the 3 stage Filter system that tells us when each filter needs replacing based on them getting clogged I think. Otherwise I do not know how it knows which filter needs replacing when.
> 
> My water has been tested and no trace of chloramines. Straight from the well very high Iron content and sulfar content (safe for humans they told me, but yuck) My wife does not like to drink the water from the filter part of the kitchen sink (no taste at all) Using it for coffee for over a year and hlf now and no minertal deposits inside of the holding tank on the coffee maker


The only issue I see is that a water softener replaces metals such as calcium and magnesium(culprits of hard water residue) with sodium ions to soften the water. I haven't read what effects sodium would have on amphibians, but logic would tell me that using tapwater that has the beneficial minerals such as calcium retained, and the harmful metals, minerals, and gases such as chlorine, chloramines, lead, etc removed, would be good for your frogs.

Run your tap water through a particle filter, a carbon filter, and age it for a minimum 24 hours.


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## Ed

Feffie said:


> As far as I am aware boiling water does dechlorinate it or have my 8 or 9 years studying chemistry gone to waste


If you boil it for at least 20 minutes it does drive off the chlorine from chloramines (assuming you have them to begin with). Keep in mind that I would be hesitant to use boiled water that was allowed to come to room temperature since boiling also drives off dissolved gases and this could be an issue for tadpoles as it could result in oxygen deprivation. If your studying chemistry, do you have access to distilled water? Most labs have a never ending supply of it. You can use that instead of RO. 

Some comments,

Ed 
(and my years of chemistry was over two decades ago...)


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## Boyd75

If I use tap cured with jungle "start right" an aquarium dechlorinator, with minerals. 
Is that acceptable?


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## Taari

I bought a 5 gallon food-storage bucket at winco for less than $5 with lid, and fill it with RO water at the machine for $0.30 per gallon. Tannins from the substrate naturally get into the water and make it more acidic. Then I have a 1 gallon water jug that I fill out of the 5 gallon bucket so it's easier to handle.

Honestly, my tap water is fantastic water, but it's been buffered to have a pH of 8.0, otherwise I'd just use it. Our neighborhood has it's own water tower and it tastes better than bottled water with only the bare minimum of chlorine in it. I used it in all my aquariums with just a little dechlorinator to remove what little chlorine was in it.


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## koldshot

Most cities have a water store you can trust to be RO, or look for a wine or beer brew your own type place. I get a 5 gallon filled for $2, so I couldn't be bothered with buying filters or standing tap water. I might need 2 fills a year, if that.


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## reptileguru2135

i just saw this thread and im wondering if i have a home filter attached to my tap water can i use that in the Viv??


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## Ed

Boyd75 said:


> If I use tap cured with jungle "start right" an aquarium dechlorinator, with minerals.
> Is that acceptable?


Is your tapwater deficient in minerals? If it isn't I'm not sure why you would then want to add more.... Also allantoin isn't needed.... It will be used by bacteria as a nitrogen source which can increase levels of ammonia and nitrite until the container cycles (just like a fish tank.....). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

reptileguru2135 said:


> i just saw this thread and im wondering if i have a home filter attached to my tap water can i use that in the Viv??


The correct answer is maybe... It depends on what is in the water before filtration and what you are using it for.... for example, I wouldn't suggest it for misting as the filter doesn't do anything for dissolved minerals and you would end up with hard water deposits on the glass and potentially the plants. 

If your water company adds phosphates to the water to control corrosion, many carbon filters leach phosphates which can then push the levels high enough to cause issues with tadpole development. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## amilbs

So I'm new to this whole viv thing too and I'm using RO water currently in my mister. I know that both RO and distilled waters go through processes to eliminate harmful chemicals but I've also seen that these waters can actually lack beneficial minerals lost in the processes . Do i need to be adding something to my RO water to make it better for the vivarium setting? Also would collected rain water be acceptable to us? just looking options for sustainability and what not for the most realistic viv. thanks!


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## Chrisem

This may have been said already but distilled water at Wallmart is .88 cents a gallon.


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## Alextravis

I just use distilled water. It's cheap, I don't use a ton, and I don't have to worry about if the waters bad. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Niv78

I have a well connected to a moving spring under my property. The water comes up clear and clean and is some of the best water I've ever had. Would it be ok to use or should I still go ahead and buy water?


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## Chris S

Niv78 said:


> I have a well connected to a moving spring under my property. The water comes up clear and clean and is some of the best water I've ever had. Would it be ok to use or should I still go ahead and buy water?


If you are using a misting system, 100% you will want to use distilled or RO. I would suggest it in any case. Just because water looks clear and clean doesn't mean it isn't hard, or have other nasties in it.


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## Niv78

Chris S said:


> If you are using a misting system, 100% you will want to use distilled or RO. I would suggest it in any case. Just because water looks clear and clean doesn't mean it isn't hard, or have other nasties in it.


No misting system, want to learn to mist manually first so I figure out the right amount of misting I need before I try to setup an auto system. Thanks for your thoughts!


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## Socratic Monologue

I would recommend only RO for misting. Water spots/glass etching with tap is bad news, and when odd problems arise with frog or plant health, having used RO water eliminates one important variable in troubleshooting.


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