# Head spinning



## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

Okay- In advance I apologize for length and obvious stupidity.

Here's what's going on:

I've had my frog(s) for about 7 months now. They've been great! Good eaters and seemed very happy with the vivarium I put together for them. I've been feeding them ff's and springtails and have added a few isopods as well. Well about two weeks ago I added a few new plants (after a bleach soak), and shortly afterwards the frogs started hiding more. I figured it was just because I had altered their environment a little. Then they seemed less interested in the flies. Then the smaller of the two started hanging out in the water, which neither of them had done much of before. This is when I became pretty suspicious and started rereading about parasites, etc. 

I began to realize that somehow, nematodes have infected my vivarium and my frogs! According to several threads and first aid lists, metronidazole was the medicine I needed. So, on Friday (before Easter) I called my local vet to ask for some metronidazole and possibly Panacur to treat them. Well, they don't do exotics so they recommended another vet. I called them, and they said that they HAD to see the frogs in order to prescribe the meds. Okay, NOT thrilled about this, as the smaller frog was looking horribly weak, and the other was hiding very well. "Well, alright, can I bring them in now?" No, no availability until next week sometime. "Is there anyone else in the area?" Yes, found a vet in a nearby town that specializes in exotics. Called them and the receptionist wasn't sure if they handled PDF's, could she call back? Never heard back. 

Meanwhile, I'm still reading about treatment and really liked the idea of just spraying down the whole vivarium with a metronidazole solution.

Well, the little guy gave it up Saturday night. I promptly put him in a ziplock and put him in the fridge. Perhaps I could just bring him in to autopsy and get the meds needed?? Unfortunately, had to be away from home on Monday and Tuesday so, Wednesday was the earliest I could get to the exotic vet. They insisted on seeing the live frog, who by now was looking much thinner and was also starting to hang out in the water. Not eating. Great, well, I gingerly scooped him into a plastic shoebox with moist papertowels and a cup to hide under and took him to the vet. It was as I feared, they got a fecal and confirmed roundworm. I showed the vet the printout I had that recommended metronidazole and asked if I could get enough to spray down the vivarium. I was told I'd have plenty left over. Well, after a few minutes, the vet came back in and now recommended Ivermectin. 1 dose now, 1 in two weeks. Now, I can't find it, but I thought I read that Ivermectin kills all the infected worms at once and can cause septic shock which will kill the frog?

So, here are my questions/dilemmas:
First, how are we supposed to have a first aid kit if the frogs need to be sick in order to get the medicine?

I understand that in the wild, these frogs are practically swimming in nematodes, what makes them SO dangerous to a captive frog??

I also understand that there are people out there that treat their vivariums on a regular basis with metronidazole. Have they had success? (I REALLY don't want to destroy the vivarium if I don't have to) <<< I know some of you REALLY see the stupidity of this question. But if you can keep the infestation to a minimum, won't a healthy frog be ok? So, it's just a matter of getting the frog back to healthy right?? I DID say my head is spinning from this!

Last question, has anyone brought back a frog from the brink? He's been dosed with Ivermectin, and a bit of Vitamin A, and he's in quarantine. But he's still not eating, and is very thin now. I've also dropped a little pedialyte on him. He doesn't seem to like it.

Thank you for your responses, be gentle. ish.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

While I don't have all the answers, I can give you a bit of advice...The nematodes and roundworms are so dangerous because they are not the same species as the tropical ones the frogs would normally interact with. Second I hope you do not have any frogs in the vivarium any longer and have not transported anything from the tank into their temporay home. Lastly, sorry to say it but I would tear than entire tank apart and trash everything that I couldn't drown in bleach. As far as I know your best bet is too pay close attention to the frog and make sure its temp tank has lots of places to hide and make sure ur attempting to give him food. Best of luck.


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## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

Thank you for your response, cschub! No, I don't have any other frogs. This sucks... The more I read, the more confused I get:

"If you can see them, they're no concern"
"You have to throw everything away"
"They're everywhere and in everything, you can't get rid of them"
"All frogs have them"

AAAAARGH!!!!!


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Like I said, IMO your best route is to quarantine the frog and give it special attention, treat it with perscribed meds, and hope for the best. It is one of the downsides to this hobby. As for the vivarium I really think it is best to scrap it and start over. I know that's not what you want to hear but it could all happen over again which would obviously be alot more disheartening.

Btw where did you get the plants from that were suspected of carrying the parasites?


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## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

Well, I'm not POSITIVE that they came from plants. I've also introduced isopods that I've been culturing from wild caught. ?? So not sure.

But the plants did go through a short (10min) bath in 10% bleach solution.

Oh, and to finally answer your question 

I put in two ferns and a palm from Home Depot.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

The isopods could be your problem, generally introducing anything wild caught and thus non-native to the frogs natural habitat is a very bad idea!

I also never buy plants from anywhere but well know frog/vivarium sites. I have heard both horror stories of home depot plants but also good things, so I cannot say much on those.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

First , let me compliment you on your efforts. I have to ask, why say protazoa or worms. Could also be deficiency or bacterial infection. What suppliments were you using and how often? What were your temps? Using a flashlight in the middle of the night see if any large spiders or roaches came with your HD plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Artistdude said:


> Well, I'm not POSITIVE that they came from plants. I've also introduced isopods that I've been culturing from wild caught. ?? So not sure.
> 
> But the plants did go through a short (10min) bath in 10% bleach solution.
> 
> ...


Your first post made me wonder about whether you actually had a vet involved in the process or not... since metronidazole is not prescribed for nematodes so spraying your tank with it is useless for multiple reasons... I have severe doubts that a vet would prescribe a antiprotozoal medication to be used in a manner that is contraindicated on many levels. Where you you get that supposed print out? who is the vet, I'd like to ask them about treating roundworms with metronidazole (actually any vet would know that you can't treat roundworms with metronidazole). Over dosing the frogs with metronidazole can cause permanent neurological issues. 

Ivermectin is the drug of choice for nematode infections now since unlike powdered antihelmetics like fenbendazole it allows for an exactly targeted dosage... 

If you see the nematodes crawling around the tank then they are probably free living nematodes of which the vast majority are harmless. If they were pathenogenic then the vet who did the fecal would have been able to identify if there were species that both a free living stage and a parasitic stage (like Rhabdias ranae).

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cschub13 said:


> While I don't have all the answers, I can give you a bit of advice...The nematodes and roundworms are so dangerous because they are not the same species as the tropical ones the frogs would normally interact with.


Since when? A number of species are found globally (for example Rhabdius ranae). In addition to that even the native parasites of several species can build into superinfections in susceptiable animals (for example lungworms and hookworms)... Even the native species can be very dangerous in a stressed frog... 

Ed


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Ed said:


> Since when? A number of species are found globally (for example Rhabdius ranae). In addition to that even the native parasites of several species can build into superinfections in susceptiable animals (for example lungworms and hookworms)... Even the native species can be very dangerous in a stressed frog...
> 
> Ed


Never said they couldn't be. Was just simply stating that there are differences in species native to both locations. Sorry guess I should have elaborated more.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Artistdude said:


> I began to realize that somehow, nematodes have infected my vivarium and my frogs! According to several threads and first aid lists, metronidazole was the medicine I needed.
> ......
> Meanwhile, I'm still reading about treatment and really liked the idea of just spraying down the whole vivarium with a metronidazole solution.
> 
> ...... Great, well, I gingerly scooped him into a plastic shoebox with moist papertowels and a cup to hide under and took him to the vet. It was as I feared, they got a fecal and confirmed roundworm. I showed the vet the printout I had that recommended metronidazole and asked if I could get enough to spray down the vivarium. I was told I'd have plenty left over. Well, after a few minutes, the vet came back in and now recommended Ivermectin. 1 dose now, 1 in two weeks. Now, I can't find it, but I thought I read that Ivermectin kills all the infected worms at once and can cause septic shock which will kill the frog?







Ed said:


> Your first post made me wonder about whether you actually had a vet involved in the process or not... since metronidazole is not prescribed for nematodes so spraying your tank with it is useless for multiple reasons... I have severe doubts that a vet would prescribe a antiprotozoal medication to be used in a manner that is contraindicated on many levels. Where you you get that supposed print out? who is the vet, I'd like to ask them about treating roundworms with metronidazole (actually any vet would know that you can't treat roundworms with metronidazole). Over dosing the frogs with metronidazole can cause permanent neurological issues.
> 
> Ivermectin is the drug of choice for nematode infections now since unlike powdered antihelmetics like fenbendazole it allows for an exactly targeted dosage...
> 
> Ed


I don't think the vet recommended metronidazole. Looks like the OP speculated that would be the correct treatment after reading about different treatments online.


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## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

billschwinn said:


> First , let me compliment you on your efforts. I have to ask, why say protazoa or worms. Could also be deficiency or bacterial infection. What suppliments were you using and how often? What were your temps? Using a flashlight in the middle of the night see if any large spiders or roaches came with your HD plants.


Thank you Bill. I came to the assumption after reading a bunch of threads, especially: Frog Forum - Basic Frog First Aid

I use Rep-Cal and Herptivite alternatively about every other feeding.

The plants were pretty small. I gave them a bath in bleach (10%). Rinsed them well. I didn't see any large insects, or small ones for that matter. 

The lights are on a timer for the viv. And I'm up for a couple hours after they go out. Although I haven't used a flashlight much, I do spend a lot of time gazing in there.  Haven't seen anything but a couple of missed ff's and sleeping frogs. Well, before this...


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## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

Ed said:


> Your first post made me wonder about whether you actually had a vet involved in the process or not... since metronidazole is not prescribed for nematodes so spraying your tank with it is useless for multiple reasons... I have severe doubts that a vet would prescribe a antiprotozoal medication to be used in a manner that is contraindicated on many levels. Where you you get that supposed print out? who is the vet, I'd like to ask them about treating roundworms with metronidazole (actually any vet would know that you can't treat roundworms with metronidazole). Over dosing the frogs with metronidazole can cause permanent neurological issues.
> 
> Ivermectin is the drug of choice for nematode infections now since unlike powdered antihelmetics like fenbendazole it allows for an exactly targeted dosage...
> 
> ...


Ed- Thank you so much for chiming in. I hoped you would!

As I said, I used this page: Frog Forum - Basic Frog First Aid as a source for my conclusions. Right or wrong. I guess I was HOPING for an overall treatment that would clean the viv and the frogs at the same time. Again, the vet did prescribe Ivermectin and administered the first dose. 

As I having been going back and forth between computer and quarantined frog, I've stopped several times in front of the viv and sighed heavily. I did notice (for the first time) a large number of very small (1/4 inch) white worms crawling on the side glass. They LOOK like the images of roundworms/nematodes I've seen online. But these would be too large, yes?

As for the diagnosis of the fecal sample, they said roundworm eggs present of unknown species. They offered to have it sent out for a specific identification. I declined. Maybe that was a mistake too?

OMG! Just went back and re-read that first aid thread, NOW I see where it says "Protozoa"!


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## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

I sure wish he/she would eat. Seems scared of any flies I put in there. Very listless. 

Should I have him in dark? Or average room lighting ok? Should I put in more hiding places? Currently has a jar top with water (distilled with a couple drops of pedialyte), a cup cut like a coco hut and a temp/humid gauge(reading 75˚ and 97% humidity).

Again, anyone have luck bringing a frog back that's this far gone?


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

I would put some leaf litter in there or some plant clippings. (not from your tank or hd) Extra hiding places will help it be more secure.


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## Artistdude (Apr 9, 2011)

Didn't make it through the night. Poor thing.

Thanks for your help guys.


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