# misting with tap water



## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

hello, i was wondering what is the difference between misting with tap water and with RO water? It seems to me everyone uses RO water. i dont *want* to buy a RO unit unless i have too. I live in southern California if that makes a difference. I use tap water with Reptisafe(removes chlorine) to mist my plants and frogs.Is that okay to mist with tap water? Ive been misting for 3 months and the plants seems to be growing fine and there is no harm to my leucs. The only thing bad i got from it is water marks on the glass that is dried up, which can be removed if i scratch the surface of it. What do you guys think? Is RO required?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I would recommend using RO water because it wont build up and clog your mister and its just good to play it safe I think.

if you dont have a lot of tanks and therefore dont use a lot of water to mist, sometimes its easy to just buy bottled water. I just use the 2.5 gallon things you can get from the supermarket and they last a while in my two tanks. Just read the labels and if it says "filtered with reverse osmosis" then you are good to go... 

also, check your local fish store... a lot of places sell reverse osmosis water on the cheap and you can just go in with some buckets or something and get it.

again... those are good if you arent misting a ton, if you are its more economical to buy a filter of your own.


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

I just run mine through a Brita filter. You could buy filtered water at walmart or something as well.


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## dart_king (Mar 2, 2008)

isnt disteled water ok for misting too?


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

Distilled water should be pretty good. You're not trying to get any nutrients out of the water, just moisture, so the purer it is the better.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

tkromer said:


> Distilled water should be pretty good. You're not trying to get any nutrients out of the water, just moisture, so the purer it is the better.


I might challenge this a bit if you are keeping live plants. Additionally do we really know what impact nutrients delivered via rainwater have on our frogs? There are still a lot of unknowns around things such as spindly leg syndrome that people have hypothesized may be related to things such as the presence of calcium in soils.

Back to water for misting....
I want to caution that the "scraping" of these minerals off the glass is VERY difficult and a big pain in the rear. You want to be able to enjoy viewing your animals and this will definitely hinder that unless you can be sure no water hits the glass in front/sides. For this reason I went to using the 5 gallon "water cooler" bottles which I have delivered. I simply put my intake hose into the bottle and change when empty. 

The only other reason I am careful with tap water is with my egg feeders who are raising eggs/tads in the water which is provided by misting. It is likely fine but I get nervous around exposing eggs/tads to chlorinated tap water. Adults...no problem.

Lastly...I think many people over estimate the amount of misting required. The only reason to mist is to maintain humidity. Tanks which are full glass maintain humidity will without misting or can be misted weekly by hand easier. Misting does seem to spur breeding activity in many species so this may be another factor to consider. Even then...although it does no harm except using a lot of water, I only mist once a day for 1 minute...and only in my enclosures which have full screen tops.

World according to Chris


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

You do have a point umbrasprite. We really don't know what the frogs are getting out of the water (if anything). Everything you said is pretty much spot-on though.
I am saying the misting is for humidity purposes primarily. The plants are getting their nutrients from the soil (dead fruit flies, frog poo etc) and the frogs are _hopefully_ getting their nutrients from their (vitamin dusted) food.
The frogs may benefit from absorption of minerals in the water, but I think we have to feed them with the assumption that their food is all the nutrients they are going to get.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

i use reptisafe with the tap water and mist my viv. It says that reptisafe instantly removes chlorine. People dont use tap water because it contains chlorine right? because it hurts the animals?


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## dart_king (Mar 2, 2008)

ok so distelled water is good for frogs, and plants, but not tads? correct?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I've used unfiltered, untreated, patented-midwestern-liquid-rock for misting, tads, etc... for years now, and never encountered any water related health problems with frogs (or chameleons). Hard water spots (on plants, glass, wood, anything else that doesn't move), are another story all together. If you have the space for, and can afford one, you would be best to get an RO filter just to save yourself the exquisite joy of running an evaporative limestone factory.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Catfur said:


> I've used unfiltered, untreated, patented-midwestern-liquid-rock for misting, tads, etc... for years now


Hahahah....I got a good laugh on this one.

Lil Man...

My statement is based on nothing but how I do things. I have no basis for my statement about frogs vs eggs/tads other than the adults are more hearty and tolerant of environmental pressures. Please do not take my statement as fact or a requirement. So much of what we are doing is still in the "experimental" stages as frog husbandry is continuing to evolve via trial and error.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

How do u get distilled water?and wat is it?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> How do u get distilled water?and wat is it?


Your local grocery store or Walmart. 

For the what is it, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_ ... stillation

I avoid using distilled water with eggs and tads because the lack of minerals in the water sucks the life right out of them (osmotic potential). If you are going to use store bought water, spring water is your best bet. I have good local water, so I just let it age for a few days to off-gas the additives from my municipality. Chlorine off-gasses, chloramine does not. If you have chloramine in your water (you can find this out from your water company), then an additional conditioner might be in order. But plain old tap does the trick for me, minus the hard water stains of course. If you find those hard water stains offensive, a little lemon juice or vinegar on a paper towel and some elbow grease will take them right off.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

I'm not sure what your neighborhood is like, but I'm in So. Cal too and just about every corner or shopping mall has a water store. I just keep a few extra empty gallon water bottles and fill them up at the water store. The ones in my neighborhood only charge .25 cents a gallon if you have your own container. As far as I know, all the water stores use reverse osmosis to make their drinking water. I think the little water vending machines use R.O. also.


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## Leap (Mar 19, 2008)

I'll chime in that I've been using distilled in lieu of my home's well water (though I may switch to RO since flyangler has a good point about distilled). What worries me about my well water, however soft and clean it seems to be, is all the farming going on in the area. Any fertilizers are pesticides may be broken down the point of non existence (unless you believe in homeopathy), but whose to say frogs won't absorb enough to do long term harm?


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

why is everyone so worry about what water to use? water is water right? its just whats in it, that people are scared of. Has anyone ever killed a frog from tap water?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Its just whats in it, that people are scared of


Exactly. In the case of distilled, it's doesn't have any minerals in it. Good for carnivorous plants which have very low tolerance for mineral content in their water, bad for eggs/tads for the reason that I stated above. My local water is good, so the tap serves me well and I've raised up good strong axolotl and newt larvae with it. 

I've considered getting an RO unit, but its primary function would have more to do with a reef tank I've been thinking of getting set up.

It's our responsibility to provide the best possible care for the animals in our care- and the quality of the water that we use has a bigger effect on the long-term health of our frogs and other amphibians than you realize....


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

im surprised nobody has brought up the issue of what their local municipalities may be treating their water with and how it could affect the frog... Is there any info on how fluoridation affects frogs?

Also... with the recent "big news story" about traces of medicine being found in city water (good ol' philadelphia) I personally find it comforting to know that i play it safe and stay away from city water.
(plus, "wissahickon punch" kinda has a stigma of its own around here to the point where a lot of people dont even drink it)


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

So basically any water that is safe for us HUMANS, is safe for the frogs right? and is okay to mist the frogs and plants with that water?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> im surprised nobody has brought up the issue of what their local municipalities may be treating their water with and how it could affect the frog... Is there any info on how fluoridation affects frogs?
> 
> Also... with the recent "big news story" about traces of medicine being found in city water (good ol' philadelphia) I personally find it comforting to know that i play it safe and stay away from city water.
> (plus, "wissahickon punch" kinda has a stigma of its own around here to the point where a lot of people dont even drink it)



This isn't new.. the information has been available for a few years in the USA and I think longer for European countries.. See Kolpin, Dana W.; Furlong, Edward T.; Meyer, Michael T.; Thurman, E. Michael; Zaugg, Steven D.; Barber, Larry B.; Buxton, Herbert T.; 2002, Pharmaceuticals, hormones adn other organic wastewater contaminents in U.S. streams, 1999-2000: A national reconnaissance; Environ. Sci. Technol 36: 1202-1211 for one study. This is only hitting the media now.. 


There is some doubt that the levels of flouride in the tap water are sufficient to cause issues. The levels are typically between 0.5–1.0 mg/litre (Murray, 1986) which is oddly enough about the same amount that can be found between 1-3 cups of tea.... 


Murray JJ, ed. (1986) Appropriate use of fluorides for human health. Geneva, World Health
Organization

IPCS (1984) Fluorine and fluorides. Geneva, World Health Organization, International Programme on
Chemical Safety (Environmental Health Criteria 36).

Slooff W et al., eds. (1988) Basisdocument fluoriden. Bilthoven, Netherlands, National Institute of
Public Health and Environmental Protection (Report No. 758474005).

Ed


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## mokeys0 (Nov 27, 2007)

i personally mist with distilled water, i just think tap water has too many chemicals, and wouldn't want to chance it. what about misting with rain water? 

eric


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Ed said:


> There is some doubt that the levels of flouride in the tap water are sufficient to cause issues. The levels are typically between 0.5–1.0 mg/litre (Murray, 1986) which is oddly enough about the same amount that can be found between 1-3 cups of tea....


Yeah, that's not at all misleading.

Open sentance...............


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

mokeys0 said:


> what about misting with rain water?
> 
> eric


Rainwater washes pollutants out of the air. So it would depend on the air quality in your area.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed, so I went and found that article and kinda skimmed through it... noticed at the bottom all the stuff like reproductive hormones and a couple ovulation inhibitors... simply out of curiosity, Ed, what are the odds that stuff like this might actually affect the breeding of the frogs? would any sized dose of that stuff even do anything?

Anyway, in the big picture... seeing as how we have established that those chemicals do exist in the water, what kind of risk do they actually pose for the frogs? Would RO even manage to filter out all of them? 

What do you use at the zoo? cause I'm sure your water over there is pretty similar to mine (Im in school right in East Falls/Manayunk)

thanks in advance!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Tom,

We are still using aged tap water as we have had developmental issues when we used carbon filtered water (due to phosphate release) and issues when we used the artificial pond water formula provided in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry however I am in the long process of moving us over to some different systems and set-ups. More because there is data coming out that shows that nitrate at levels that can be found in fish tanks can be a problem (see Barbeau, Tamatha R.; Guillette Jr., Louis J.; Altered ovarian steroids in _Xenopus laevis_ exposed to environmentally relevent concentrations of nitrate; Journal of Herpetology 41(4): 590-596 and one of the initial sources of nitrate in the water is from chloramines.) I am going to be reconstituting RO water but need to see whether we can use a commercial product or have to go to an inhouse custom mixture. 
In addition, non-burrowing aquatic animals I want to start moving over to aquatic systems that use plants and recycle nutrients (see Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Walstad (Echinodorus Press) for the lines of where I am trying to go). 

There have been intersex fish found in the Potomac watershed but to date I haven't heard of any being found in the Delaware, Schuykill or Susquehanna rivers (for what little comfort that is worth). There is a lot of indications that low levels of endocrine disruptors can have an effect (do a search for endocrine disruptor and reptiles, and amphibians and check out what pops up). This is one of the things that we are just realizing that the waste treatment systems cannot handle. I suspect if they ran it through a microbial digester long enough it would take care of most if not all of these items but I don't know the time scale required or how large that would then make the resulting operation. 

If I can get the time and pull it all together I am working on a review of water issues for amphibian keepers and hopefully can get it together enough to get it out there. 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

thanks Ed! I would definitely be interested in reading that review so please keep us updated if you don't mind.

(oh and sorry I kinda semi-hijacked this thread)


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

what about drinking water?is it safe to mist?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In general it is safe to mist however some drinking water is hard which will result in mineral salts being deposited on plants and glass. Some plants do not tolerate these salts very well. 

Ed


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

thanks for all your help people.:]


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

I have pm'd you. Being a chemistry major you should be able to figure this out..............just read my pm......................


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I'm not sure I believe the "distilled water will remove nutrients" lore, Isn't rain water pretty much distilled water? Is there any evidence that distilled water causes any problems? Presumably minerals are covering just about every surface, and unless you are constantly misting there should be no problem holding onto them. Right? :?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Mark,

There have been studies in amphibians that show that unless the amphibians do lose ions to the surrounding system due to osmotic issues (the amphibians are in a hypotonic solution) and they have to actively pump the water out of thier system resulting in a loss of ions which can impact the growth and health of the animal. This also requires an extra expendieture of energy to scavenge ions in a low ion enviroment. (I'll include some links below so you can check out the data yourself). With respect to RO water if the incoming water contains CO2, this will not be removed by the membrane and can then subsequently react with the water forming H2CO3 which then dissacociates to form HCO3 and CO3 reducing the pH of the RO water. This can also increase ion loss in some amphibians. 

Rain is hypotonic but there are ions dissolved in the rain (such as carried by the nucleous that formed the rain drop) or items washed from the air like dust, nitrate, pollen, etc) and this does not count what is picked up after it contacts a substrate (like tree trunk, leaves etc). If it was that devoid of nutrients that would make it really hard for most epiphytes to use rain water as a source of nutrients. Most people do not house tadpoles in straight RO or distilled water as they add other items to the water either before, during or after they add the tadpole which reduces the hypotonicity of the solution. These include dried foods (salts and water soluable vitamins are lost to the solution), leaves (again salts, soluable organic compounds, decomposition products), or even plants (plants are leaky and release soluable organic compounds into the water) all of which reduce the tonicity levels between the tadpoles and water. In addition, the different waters can affect the growth and composition of the biofilm in containers resulting in differing effects on the tadpoles. 

With all of that said, there are plenty of anecdotal reports of people using distilled or RO water to rear tadpoles successfully and if one searches the archives here and on frognet enough, it has even been anecdotally reported as a way to resolve SLS issues. 

http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/46/1/85.pdf 

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 1&SRETRY=0

http://www.springerlink.com/content/ww53l3414614227t/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... 858fa4719c

and the references in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (2001) Krieger Press

That should be enough to get you started on this path.... 

Ed


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> There have been studies in amphibians that show that unless the amphibians do lose ions to the surrounding system due to osmotic issues (the amphibians are in a hypotonic solution) and they have to actively pump the water out of thier system resulting in a loss of ions which can impact the growth and health of the animal. This also requires an extra expendieture of energy to scavenge ions in a low ion enviroment. (I'll include some links below so you can check out the data yourself). With respect to RO water if the incoming water contains CO2, this will not be removed by the membrane and can then subsequently react with the water forming H2CO3 which then dissacociates to form HCO3 and CO3 reducing the pH of the RO water. This can also increase ion loss in some amphibians.
> 
> ...


Dam.... you know what your doing. i bet you have a phd


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nope not even close to a pHD. 

Ed


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Thanks for the references, Ed. I don't have a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, but I looked up the other ones. All except "Cutaneous Transport of Ca2+ in the Frog..." were studies done on larvae. Osmotic stress is certainly an issue in aquatic organisms, but I imagine that it is less so for the terrestrial frogs in our terrariums. The other paper, which looked at calcium exchange in Rana Pipiens, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) spend some time in the water. Also, the water was changed every day during the experiment.

I would argue that in our setups, there are enough minerals covering every surface that no standing water actually acts as distilled water. The broms also accumulate minerals over time from dead bugs and frog crap, so that unless you are doing complete water changes in the broms, this shouldn't be much of an issue either. 

That said, I'm somewhat interested in adding calcium to the water, as a calcium supplement. Is it possible to mist with calcium in the water and not have it form limestone on the surface of the glass? Has anyone here had success?

This also bring to mind a more visceral experience. I don't know if anyone else has made this mistake, but if you breath the water vapor fog coming off an ultrasonic humidifier (like the ones for your house), it burns your throat and lungs. It turns out that this is because the vapor is so hypotonic that you can feel the osmotic shock in your airway. I wonder if frogs can feel the same thing when I mist them with distilled, deionized water. That would be unpleasant.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Osmotic stress is certainly an issue in aquatic organisms


It is, this is why I don't use distilled water for caudate eggs or larvae on the advice of Mike Shrom.



> That said, I'm somewhat interested in adding calcium to the water, as a calcium supplement. Is it possible to mist with calcium in the water and not have it form limestone on the surface of the glass? Has anyone here had success?


I haven't tried an aqueous calcium solution, but I seem to recall it being more prevalent in Europe. At least one member here, MJ, does this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markbudde said:


> Thanks for the references, Ed. I don't have a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, but I looked up the other ones. All except "Cutaneous Transport of Ca2+ in the Frog..." were studies done on larvae. Osmotic stress is certainly an issue in aquatic organisms, but I imagine that it is less so for the terrestrial frogs in our terrariums. The other paper, which looked at calcium exchange in Rana Pipiens, which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) spend some time in the water. Also, the water was changed every day during the experiment..


The ion loss and transport appears to be the same in both adult and larval amphibians which why I tracked down the one on leopard frogs even though there are some differences between larval and adult skin (two versus three skin layers for example) however the brief period of time terrestrial animals are exposed really reduces any ion loss effects. It is typically only a problem if the animal cannot get out of the extreme hypotonic situation. 



markbudde said:


> I would argue that in our setups, there are enough minerals covering every surface that no standing water actually acts as distilled water. The broms also accumulate minerals over time from dead bugs and frog crap, so that unless you are doing complete water changes in the broms, this shouldn't be much of an issue either. ..


Yep, that is why I pointed out that rain water is effectively not pure anymore by the time it reaches the bromeliads. 



markbudde said:


> That said, I'm somewhat interested in adding calcium to the water, as a calcium supplement. Is it possible to mist with calcium in the water and not have it form limestone on the surface of the glass? Has anyone here had success?..


I haven't seen or heard of one yet. However keep in mind that the plants may not appreciate the extra calcium in the water over time. Unless you flush the tank with RO or distilled water you will end up with a salt build-up in the system which can be an issue (much the same as the white salt builds up in potted plants when watered with hard water) with the plants as well as aesthetics. 



markbudde said:


> This also bring to mind a more visceral experience. I don't know if anyone else has made this mistake, but if you breath the water vapor fog coming off an ultrasonic humidifier (like the ones for your house), it burns your throat and lungs. It turns out that this is because the vapor is so hypotonic that you can feel the osmotic shock in your airway. I wonder if frogs can feel the same thing when I mist them with distilled, deionized water. That would be unpleasant.


If you are spraying them with a hand sprayer or a rain system then the droplets are too small to penetrate the way the ultrasonic mist does. Usually you will see an increase in escape behaviors if there is something irritating the frogs. There are studies done on the ability of animals's cells to resist osmotic shock at least erythrocyes in amphibians are much more resistant to it than mammaliam erythrocytes.. (see http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/su ... 363044_ITM). I would not be surprised to see that this carries over to skin cells. 

Ed


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## Leap (Mar 19, 2008)

I've noticed that, when I now and then fog with my humidifier (using distilled water), the frogs will come out and become much more active. Not in the "omg, run" way, but rather the "look at the flies as they panic, let's eat!" way. Just what I have noticed in my limited experience. I think they enjoy the cover of the fog. :?:


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

Leap said:


> I've noticed that, when I now and then fog with my humidifier (using distilled water), the frogs will come out and become much more active. Not in the "omg, run" way, but rather the "look at the flies as they panic, let's eat!" way. Just what I have noticed in my limited experience. I think they enjoy the cover of the fog. :?:


the fog make the frogs more bold?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stinkysab said:


> the fog make the frogs more bold?


It doesn't make them more bold instead it may bring the humidity up to where the frogs are able to move into areas of the enclosure where the humidity may not have been optimal as well as stimulating insects to become more available. This is what encourages the frogs to investigate and move around more. If you enclosure or other stressor has caused the frogs to hide all of the time due to a lack of cover etc, then the frogs will still hide. 

Ed


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## jeffdart (May 21, 2008)

I heard spring water is god to use, Its like .99 at albertsons for a gallon i use or all my pets.


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## stinkysab (Feb 21, 2008)

jeffdart said:


> I heard spring water is god to use, Its like .99 at albertsons for a gallon i use or all my pets.


Spring water is good but i heard it leaves mineral deposits on th glass and could be hard to take out if it builds up.


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## jeffdart (May 21, 2008)

Haven't really had that problem yet, but I am looking into getting an ro system soon.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

must be the fact that we have soft water , its preaty good compared to most other places i have been , i use strait tap water for misting addinbg water and my tads, water stains dont really happen at all, tads morph out well. clorine is the real concern out here and it seems more is added or the concentration seems higher after heavy rains.so once in a while a few hours of aging but thats about it.
craig


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