# Old Cedar Driftwood... OK/NOT OK???



## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Hi I have large cedar driftwood roots and branches that are incredibly beautiful. Some are over 350 lbs!!! These pieces are cedar driftwood from a small freshwater stream near my house. Also, these pieces were pulled from the water over 40 years ago and just lay and aged in an open field for the past 40 years.

I was wondering if anyone knows of this is safe. I know cedar mulch is not safe for darts. Since this wood is so old wouldn't it be safe since all the tannin is gone?

Thanks


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Well, I have been told that cedar is not good to use with the frogs. I don't know if the age makes a difference or not. But it is very fragrant, and is irritating to them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If it is red cedar then it may not be safe. If it is Atlantic White Cedar (a juniper species) then it may be safe. 

Red cedar is liver toxic due to the essential oils in it and even long ageing may not be sufficient for all of the oils to have been removed. 

Ed


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2006)

You'd be best in posting the latin name. Cedar covers many species.....most which aren't cedar at all.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2006)

i found some nice cedar driftwood too. but i decided not to use it, its not worth the risk.


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## Guest (Mar 6, 2006)

True Cedars (Cedrus spp.) are not native to North America, but three species, and their varieties, are planted as ornamentals. They are Deodar Cedar (C. deodara), from the Himalayas, Atlas Cedar (C. atlantica), from North Africa, and Lebanon Cedar (C. libani), from Asia Minor. All three grow to 100 feet tall.

Cedar is the common name given trees of various genera in several families. The most familiar are native American species of the genera Calocedrus, Thuja, Chamaecyparis and several junipers. All, together with cypresses, also in this family, have scalelike foliage on flatten or rounded branchlets. Species in the genus Cedrus of the pine family and Cryptomeria of the redwood family are also called cedar. The wood of most trees known as cedar is aromatic.

Atlantic White Cedar (Chamaecyparis thyoides) and Western Redcedar (Thuja plicata) have been mentioned....I believe.

Eastern Redcedar (Juniperus virginiana) may be what Ed was thinking when he mentioned Atlantic White Cedar and Western Redcedar (Thuja plicata) I would think could cause the liver damage. 

I'm not looking to put words in Ed's mouth, rather just saying that using common names can be "iffy" when it comes to trees, shrubs and plants.

Example: iron wood. What specie is it?

I have thought about junipers (one reason from old former bonsai and such) and actually have a nice piece of old (100+ years) Rocky Mountain (Juniperus scopulorum) or Western Juniper (Juniperus occidentalis) in a tank with orange legged Monkey frogs (2+ yrs now). This tank is more arrid by far then a dart tank (junipers aren't bad on the rot resistance end, thou not the greastest either....specie dependant I'm sure). Frogs seem fine, and I picked this piece because of age and weathering.

I have another that is, rather was, in a more moist environment, on and off. No frogs, just more or less testing. I just took it out about a week ago. Seems to me, it was rotting at the end that was in constant contact with a mostly moist clay soil (used for water gardening plants). It isn't uncommon in my experience to see wood do fine either all in the water (submerged) or all out of the water, whereas half in and half out the wood will rot much quicker at the water line.

As I said, I would ID the wood first, and as mentioned by Ed, I too would consider (possibly) only a juniper. I have no solid ground to base this on other than gut however.

Ed seemed to have more than that. 

Ed, what do you know about Yew? I have a big interesting sprawling roots/trunk/branches piece that I keep eye-balling. It is at the moment just a yard piece. Good for about a 400 gallon tank unless it were cut up into several pieces.  

I will have to study it closely to see if it is worth taking rubber molds off of it.

Good luck.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Maybe if you told us where (state, locale, elevation) you found it, we could come up with an actual ID. For instance, if it were found in the Sierras it would most likely be Incense-Cedar, which as stated above is not a true cedar. Whether or not it's useable in a terrarium i don't know, but the first step in finding out is to ID the tree.

Or you could just order some from Black Jungje.... :?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When talking about Atlantic White Cedar I was referring to Chamaecyparis thyoides which in some of the local field guides is referred to as a juniper. 
In NJ you can find the stumps and wood in bogs and I have used them both in fish tanks and with amphibians without any problem. I probably would not use the fresh wood but the pieces I have used can be more than 50 years old. They can often be collected when the retention ponds are drained to flood the cranberry bogs (but you need permission to come on to the grower's land first). 

I have used yew (Taxus sp) in with reptiles as exhibit setups with no problem but have not tried it in amphibian tanks. However a good shrub in both reptile, amphibian (including aquatic setups) is Rhododendron sp. The old large shrubs have branches that are often twisted and contorted in ways that look great in enclosures. 

If you were in the USA referring to ironwood I would suspect that you were referring to American Hornbeam.... 

Ed


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

*Lokkign for mane!*

Thanks for all the info.

I am looking for the exact latin name of the cedar (my grandfather was a forest ranger/arborist, he should know).

The cedar is from southern Ontario, Canada (40 min north of Toronto).

Thanks


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

*Found it?*

I found the name of the cedar (pretty quick too).

The cedar is:

Northern White-cedar
Thuja occidentalis

Hope that helps.

Thanks


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2006)

*Ed wrote:*


> If you were in the USA referring to ironwood I would suspect that you were referring to American Hornbeam....


Close. Eastern Hophornbeam (Ostrya virginiana) is what I was thinking. Very good point about being in USA, esp. as each region of this country alone will use a common name, yet be talking about different trees.

Many of the species (exception being the true cedars and any pines) are indeed very nice material in the way of aesthetics.

Ed, you mentioned the Rhododendron, which also brought to mind the Andromeda (Pieris japonica), AKA Japanese Pieris, AKA Lily of the Valley Shrub. Also Mountain Laurel and even Azalea. These have some interesting trunks and branches. Frog safe? Esp. dart tanks.

Is there enough common names for this tree? 
http://forestry.about.com/library/tree/blatwh.htm


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2006)

41714049,

That can be some very interesting material. You certainly live in the right area for it.  

How safe it is (esp. humid dart tanks), I can't answer that. The age/weathering surely sounds good and in your favor.

Ed may have a clue.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Haven't tried Pieris in with herps. I do know someone who tried it as perching in a rodent enclosure and did in a number of rodents. 

I have used Mt. Laurel with reptiles but not with amphibians as of yet, but I have used azaleas with herps (frogs and reptiles) with no problems. I have some reservations with Mt laurel species due to some of the common names like sheep kill (Kalmia angustifolia)...

I would probably not be use Thuja species in with amphibians as the major active agent are thujone which is readily absorbed through the mucous membranes (and frog skins are similar) and is known to be liver toxic... 

Ed


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2006)

Ed,

Good post....and quick!  

I just edited my first one posted today. I added a link with about twenty five common names for Atlantic White Cedar. Juniper was one of them.

Yeah, Mountain Laurel and Thuja concern me...again gut feelings only. I must admit that the Chamaecyparis thyoides surprised me as being safe. I have less experience with it. Never collected any deadwood or live specimens for that matter.

Most of my experiences with some of these trees/shrubs is bonsai and landscape. Not trying to put them into tanks, however as has been discussed, some of these offer fantastic shapes and textures. Would be very nice to have a list of the ones that at the very least seem to be ok.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I thought that was the case with the Atlantic White Cedar. I got the juniper name from one or two of the field guides to the NJ Pine Barrens as it is regionally oriented. 
Its pretty common out there (and I have a fair amount of seedlings of it on our property). 

Ed


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2006)

When I bracketed the statement (exceptions .....and pines) I was chuckling to myself, because I figured you or possibly even Andersonii would come back with something to the effect..." Yeah, well have you every been to the pine barrens?" 

I threw that statement in because I know pines aren't safe. I didn't want anyone thinking that because they were mentioned early on that I was endorsing them.

I had to go on line to get that link.

I'm at work and "happen to have 3 field guides here" and not one of them gave juniper nor most of the common names that were in that link. Of course if these little pocket guides did that to each and every tree they would have to limit the 250 to 300 pages to about 30 trees total.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

*Thanks*

Thanks!

At least now I know it would not be a good idea to use it in my tanks... hmmmm... maybe I can incorporate it into my backyard somewhere...

Thanks for all the help.

Jan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Yeah, Mountain Laurel and Thuja concern me...again gut feelings only. I must admit that the Chamaecyparis thyoides surprised me as being safe. I have less experience with it. Never collected any deadwood or live specimens for that matter. "

Sorry missed this part. I wouldn't try using the fresh wood from Chamaecyparis thyoides... I would stick to stuff that has been soaking for a long time.... 

What can I say, I'm a swamp rat. There is just too much cool stuff to see out there... 

Ed


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2006)

41714049,
I hear ya! In our neck of the woods, we do have some very interesting gorgeous materials growing. I'm glad you made your post, as I too would like to use some of the tree material I have, but have had a six sense about some of them.

Ed, has been most helpful in this area, even though I have been unsure as to the true specie at times. Some of this isn't as straight forward as one might think. We all can be thinking we are on the same page, only down the line finding we aren't.

It's funny when comes it to plants and such. As for example the leaves of Azalea and Rhodie's are poisonous if eaten (by koi for example) yet the trunks and branches aren't. It makes me think of something such as the potato. The tuber is fine, yet the sprouts aren't...as well as the leaves and stems. This example is relevant to people, not sure about some animals.


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2006)

Ed, Your a swamp rat!  Yeah, I want to collect baldcypress in the south sometime when I have time. I have a now dead, but once a former bonsai baldcypress that is a little over 24" or so with a base that is over 12". This is going to go into a dart tank at some point. It has beautiful fluted trunk. Well seasoned. I just can't throw out some of the old juniper bonsai and such that pass on. I look to give them a second life in some other way.

I'm trying to decide if I should take rubber molds off that baldcypress so I can cast up duplicates. Similar approach that Brent did, just being able to do it over and over. The finished tree is taller than many people can fit into their tanks, thus one would possibly need to cut and section, which could work well. A thought. I have the materials (which in themselves aren't cheap), time is a different thing.  

I use to stomp around the North East on ledges, in bogs, etc. looking for native trees that would (and some did) make some nice bonsai. I have a Hemlock that is about 3 1/2 ft. height, with a trunck dia. of maybe just over 1 inch and is by my best calculations 250 years old, that was 15 trs. ago.( I had cut one of two heavy branches off to improve a otherwise perfect natural design). The rings are so close together I need to put it under a microscope to do an accurate count. I did use a 35x loope at the time. This tree has beautiful lichen on it as well as ancient loose bark, all on a 1" dia.! Heathy and doing will. Oldest tree in my collection.

I don't collect live material (trees) anymore these days,... dead and esp. aged weathered....is a different story.

One comes across all kinds of neat stuff...esp. dead and weathering, as well as mosses, fungus, small plants one would normally just step on, etc. etc.

Oh, the old weathered/aged...not fresh was a given. I knew exactly where you were coming from on that. In my minds eye, I was with you on that swamp trip!  

Just like, in my mind I was in Canada, being I have seen exactly the material mentioned and have collected it myself!  

Nature.....I love it.


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## atomic_gnar (May 11, 2005)

hey what if you coat the cedar with epoxy or sumthing safe that preserves the wood?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have come out of more than one section of swamp wet and muddy up to my chest just so I could look at one more thing... 

Have you ever checked out the willows on some of the sand bars in the bigger rivers? Some of those plants if you dig down into the gravel bar can have trunks several inches in diameter (and massive roots) but the growth above ground is all contorted into interesting shapes from the flood damage. 

I like bonsai, but until recently haven't been in a stable location to keep any (and now its lower on the list due to house projects) and I need to get my bog gardens into place before the wife decides to plant something else there. If you are ever down Philly way, Longwood Gardens has a very impressive bonsai collection. Some of the trees have been shaped for more than 50 years (and if I remember correctly one has been a bonsai specimen for over 100 years....). 

Did you see the papers a few years back that documented that the oldest trees in the northeast weren't the large trees but the dwarfed specimens growing on the cliff faces?? 

On the topic of polyurethane, it is possible to seal the branches but if you use a light coat, then it will need to be resealed every so often (like once a year) and if you really seal it, it will look plastic... 

Ed


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## Guest (Mar 10, 2006)

*Ed wrote:*



> Did you see the papers a few years back that documented that the oldest trees in the northeast weren't the large trees but the dwarfed specimens growing on the cliff faces??


Yes, I did read those papers. 800 hundred year old Northern White-Cedars (Thuja occidentalis), if memory serves me correctly. It was interesting how that discovery came about. In full view of the city no less on the escarpments!

As for Longwood Gardens. I haven't been there for a number of years. A bonsai friend of mine, Jack Billet, used to help out with maintaining their collection. I haven't seen or talked to him for a number of years either. I had to get away from bonsai....I was living it 24/7 and was just too envolved....addicted even. 

I haven't checked out the willow...will try though. The ground up cambium of willow is a good rooting hormone. That helps explain why a branch of it can be cut off the tree and just plopped into the ground and root.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

"Willow water" also provides some sort of rooting hormones. When I had the plant nursery here, I kept buckets of willow wands rooting in water, then used the water to stimulate cuttings and transplants. It was apparently a common garden practice at least back to the 19th century, as both of my grandmothers used it for transplanting, and learned it from their own parents. They didn't know why; they just knew it worked.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2006)

I used to know what it was that caused this chemically, but can't remember off the top of my head. It's been awhile since I have needed and wanted to root, and/or air layer trees, thus have gotten rusty.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

So recently while hiking along Lake Michigan I came across a lot of white cedar here in WI. 

It was completely dried, most of the outer layer of the roots was peeled off, and easily cracked off in my hand. 

I hate to beat a dead horse - but what does everyone think?

This stuff is amazing...I just dont want to hurt my frogs.


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