# D. Lehmanni



## Troy (May 17, 2007)

i know somebody out their has some or knows sombody that breeds them i need help. i final got 2 and need breeding info and what im finding on the web is crap i need to know how to break into the tight nitted group i have set up 3x3x6 cages with high humidity and low temp 60-67f and lots of veg but i need more info call me greedy but this is my true passion i have wanted Lehmanni since i was 8 and know some 30years later i do i have breed almost every thing else. Don soderberg got me started back in the 90s he was the first to breed auratus at the Wichita Kansas Zoo back in 1985. i have been hooked ever since. then Jeff Ettling who was wichita curator for some time know is at the Saint Louis Zoo got me deeper into to it but since i opened my own shop a lost time but with every thing that is happen the amp world i dove back in and im trying to do my job and save and breed what i can but because this is my first love i want to make sure they never become extinct. so now you know how far i will go to save the i hope you will help me in journey. thanks for your time and passion as i hope you fell the same as i do.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

um so a 3 months ago you where asking questions like this http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ht=#222937

and now you have lehmanni? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: 

Post pics :lol:


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

LMFAO

http://www.dendroworld.co.uk/forum/view ... dd1dc7a8bd 

:lol: :lol:


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

yes, pics please! :lol:


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## Troy (May 17, 2007)

*frogs*

i dont know why you have to make fun of me when im just aking for some help if you sont want to help that is fine you dont have to make fun of other just because they are trying. and i will post pics soon but i heared from Amanda at ADZ you should not disturb them when they are just moved she said that is how she lost the ones she had so when they come out in the open i will take a pic but im not going to take a risk just to prove you bone heads wrong i spent to much money on them.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

So.... WHY did you post on this forum I have 2 blah blah blah and then on another forum do you know where I can get some blah blah blah? 

and btw you sound like the "bone head" in this mate not us :lol:


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## Troy (May 17, 2007)

*frogs*

because i need to start a breeding group and 2 does not make much for a breeding group. Sorry i did not know i had to let every body know that i had 2 frogs already. ps sorry your pissed off at the world for your crapy life that you have to go pick on people on chat boards


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

My crappy life? wtf do you know about my life? 

as for picking on people on chat boards.... not the case I work hard with this chat board... have done for a long time.

I wouldnt put these in a group they are highly territorial, you may want to increase the size of housing also, have a look for some small green houses and use those.. BIG bromeliads also.

I keep alot of larger egg feeders including histrionicus I still woldnt keep lehmanni.... 

I just find it funny that a couple months ago yo where asking how to sex auratus, tincs and the such and even thinking you probed them like a snake and now ou have lehmanni its kinda unbelievable... 

I know of 3 long term US hobbyists who cant find these over there so how could you?


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## Troy (May 17, 2007)

*frogs*

You win your the bigger man and they did not come from somebody hear the came from brazil thought a friend of mine. So just need some help but i guess your not the guy


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

So you smuggled them? you just become a bigger ass hole by the second :x and they come from colombia :wink:


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

*Re: frogs*



Troy said:


> You win your the bigger man and they did not come from somebody hear the came from brazil thought a friend of mine. So just need some help but i guess your not the guy


Man I would have just left it at........Well i would have never even told anyone personally!


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

::munches popcorn::

Lockie lockie?


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Why lock it? 


Infact I hope Rick Sanchez or Mark Pepper see this and chime in! I guess its not just Euro trash smuggling Lehmanni and other such frogs after all eh?


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## Troy (May 17, 2007)

*frogs*

im not keeping them in a group i said breeding group not all in one cage but multiable cages the males dont get along with other males. i know that
and when i say breeding group of azures i have 5 cages not one sorry the confusion. Sounds like you just want to find something wrong with me sorry about that i guess life goes on. i wish you all the best with your frogs sorry if i mad you mad. i guess you cant please every one


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

So you see no wrong with how you supposedly got them?? you think taking animals from a fragile population so you can "save" (read kill them through ignorance) them is helpful? its not its wrong and the fastest way to wipe somehting out for good WHY do you think they put laws in place?


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## Troy (May 17, 2007)

*frogs*

how do you think things are breed and saved from the destruction of natural habitat you think you are going to stop the loggers and development of towns and citys we could wish and hope that the rainforest will not disaper but the had facts are that their are ready alot of frogs exctint and gone forever because nobody tryed.


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## Colby02 (Jul 21, 2007)

Sorry to bust in to this but this raises some questions with me. I used to have frogs about fifteen years ago including Lehmani (they were probably illegal from what i've come to understand now). I have recently ( six months ago) gotten back into the hobby starting out with some azureus, Leucomales, and Intermedius. It's going quite well i've gotten my first luec tads and all my frogs are doing great. I've always had a great interest in Lehmani is there a way to get them legally these days? Again sorry to break in (although it looks like you guys might need a break) and I'm interested to read you replies.


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

Colby02 said:


> Sorry to bust in to this but this raises some questions with me. I used to have frogs about fifteen years ago including Lehmani (they were probably illegal from what i've come to understand now). I have recently ( six months ago) gotten back into the hobby starting out with some azureus, Leucomales, and Intermedius. It's going quite well i've gotten my first luec tads and all my frogs are doing great. I've always had a great interest in Lehmani is there a way to get them legally these days? Again sorry to break in (although it looks like you guys might need a break) and I'm interested to read you replies.


This whole dispute is over how its nearly impossible to get them period, forget about legalization it probably wont happen.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

unless they are already in the hobby and CB I dont think any are legal.... but I am not sure about that.

Whats illegal is some one going down to colombia (not brazil and FYI Troy it's female agression not male agression) snatching animals that where fine where they where and smuggling them out of the country.

Troy if you feel there is no wrong in what yo have done and feel you can convince USFW and CITES you know better than they do then post your contact info I'm sure it would make life easier for them....

although I dont agree with every statement made on this site regarding who is guilty of smuggling here's a VERY good acount of it http://www.dendrobates.org/smuggling.html

Have a read


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

If I may interject here. I think what MJ's getting at is that there are very few people qualified to properly care for and breed these animals and the fact that you obtained these animals illegally (please correct us if we're wrong here, and if we are, please explain how you got them legally!!) and the fact that you have been seen on the boards asking basic husbandry questions on beginner species, will obivously worry and anger people who care about these animals. I think your intentions are good, but it's best to leave the saving to those most qualified to do so. 

Brent


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

a copy from a PM
I think I should give my opinion with this.

well, if you really got lehmanni, let me know that those frogs are NOT saved from any forest, they got out by a painful chain of smuggling, and those could be the last individuals from a population. I personally have seen whole forests literally cleaned without any frog, and the frogs gotten recently comes from far away places. I dont know you, so I dont judge you, but with that you're supporting the extinction of an species. lehmanni is not endangered for deforestation, but for smuggling. The way to "save" as you said the species is not taking MORE individuals from the wild, if more than 300 frogs are smuggled each year to europe to the best breeders in germany, netherland, spain, the UK and they havent got them to breed, what could be diferent with you? breeding them in greenhouses has been tried too, with limited success. Yes, some day someone will breed them and will got many money with lehmanni, but for me, its jus not ethically right, sorry. They were illegally smuggled in shippments of more than 3000 frogs each one, the forest is being wiped for take the frogs, a lot of frogs die in the process, is just not fair.

Greetings from Colombia


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## ebrady (Jun 14, 2007)

i know im probably going to get ripped apart for this because im a newer board member and not that experienced in the hobby yet but i dont think this is the place for people to fight. this board is suppose to be about education not poking fun at others and arguing. i really cant believe kyle hasnt jumped in yet no offense but sometimes im afraid to post anything on this board bc people can just be a**holes

this discussion makes me second guess myself every time i want to ask for help from others on the board bc somebody may say something demeaning or nasty


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## Tripod (Jun 5, 2006)

Ebrady,

Please, don't let this thread intimidate you into not asking questions. The community on this board is one of the most supportive and friendly of any I have found. 

This particular thread is just an extreme example of people's passions becoming inflamed because of what appears to be a direct example of probably the single biggest legal and ethical hot button for the entire frogging hobby - smuggling. That the frogs in question also appear to have ended up in an amateur's possession only stokes the flame.

The only other topics that even come close to provoking this sort of aggression are hybridization and bad husbandry practices. 

Again, don't hesitate to post any and all questions to the DB community. All queries, other than obvious violations of ethical standards, will be met with respect and an eagerness to help.

Steven


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

ebrady said:


> i know im probably going to get ripped apart for this because im a newer board member and not that experienced in the hobby yet but i dont think this is the place for people to fight. this board is suppose to be about education not poking fun at others and arguing. i really cant believe kyle hasnt jumped in yet no offense but sometimes im afraid to post anything on this board bc people can just be a**holes
> 
> this discussion makes me second guess myself every time i want to ask for help from others on the board bc somebody may say something demeaning or nasty


I understand what you are saying and tend to agree with you, but I personally would give this discussion latitude. I don't know Troy but the facts he has presented himself raise serious possibilities that he has either unwittingly, or knowingly, been party to smuggling of a critically endangered species. While I do think these questions could have been raised a lot more respectfully and with some tact, this really is a serious issue and I do hope Troy can provide information that will erase suspicion.

BTW Troy, I thought it was Dave Grow at the Sedgewick County Zoo (Wichita) who first bred auratus. At least he was the one who published their methods in the Kansas Herpetological Society Newsletter way back when.


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

some one whos as big of a noob as this guy does not have lehmanni he is probably just doing this to get a rise out of people i have done this on other forums not frog related mind you for i found it quite hilarious which i believe is what he is attempting to do call me naive but i find it very very very hard to believe that he has obtained lehmanni hes full of shit


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

naja_naja said:


> snip.....he is probably just doing this to get a rise out of people i have done this on other forums not frog related mind you for i found it quite hilarious ....snip


Of course not, you would never troll on a frog board: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... highlight=
;-)


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

....and with that I look like the most hypocritical douche possible wow i did not even recall making that one but it was rather funny but i believe that since that time i have matured somewhat and have tried to make every post to have somewhat valued information according to my own knowledge and i recall having made similiar posts for my entertainment and i am sorry for doing so


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just getting caught up around here and agree this thread is either a total waste or a great example of smuggling.

In my opinion if it is true that this individual has obtained these animals then I think they should hand them over to a institution capable of caring for them properly. I also agree that the post MJ posted sure makes this seem like trolling... 

As for these animals breeding if I am not mistaken that is why they are not in the hobby today. They are next to impossible to care for and breed in captivity so it would essentially be killing off more of them to try to obtain them.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

just to say these have been bred in Sweden but not in any great numbers but I think they had 1 morph out and make it past a year. 

I also think that if this is true there is no way to justify what Troy has done.. He has possibly destroyed an entire population of these frogs just to satify his wanting.

As for me being an A hole yeah I guess I am but you have to realize I am English there for wasnt raised to hold back my opinion or sugar coat anything :lol: call a spade a spade simpla as.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

naja_naja said:


> ....but i believe that since that time i have matured somewhat and have tried to make every post to have somewhat valued information according to my own knowledge and i recall having made similiar posts for my entertainment and i am sorry for doing so


I agree that you have matured since then too. I only posted that link to show how these things can come back to bite you in the a$$ because people like me remember trolls for a long time. For what its worth, I somewhat suspect Troy is also trolling but I also think I may know who Troy is and if I'm right, I've met him in person. If I'm right, he would have the connections to possibly obtain lehmanni by hook or by crook. At this point, I think we need to see some CITES paperwork and import permits.

BTW, there was a legal cb lehmanni at NWFF several years ago.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I hadn't thought of it before...but I agree this guy is a troll.

Who (from the states) cannot use correct grammar and spelling in their native language, types in all lowercase and makes their posts difficult to even understand? I agree that someone like this would be extremely unlikely to be able to obtain these frogs. 

In addition...no photo's....

Either way I think the majority of us agree this is a frog that should not be sought out for any reason. The best way to protect this species is protecting the habitat and not supporting smuggling.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

There's no way he would have CITES docs or import/export permits for these frogs so if he has actually got them fresh from colombia (or brazil as he says :roll: ) then they are 100% smuggled... 

How would some one who obviously know F all about darts have the connections to get these? I'm not having a go at you Brent, it's just this whole thing is far fetched.


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## Yidso (Mar 16, 2007)

D.Lehmani are almost impossible to find in the US from what i have read. The only place you could really aquire them is maybe in Germany. There is almost no way this person had Lehmani if a month ago he was asking about PROBING frogs. :shock: ..I agree this guy is a forum troll and is just trying to stir up dust. If he does by some mythical way have D.Lehmani i personally feel sorry for these animals.

-Yidso


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you have enough money many items can become available to those who look for them as long as you don't care about price. There are also people who make it a specialty to help people find certain animals provided the price is right... (for example see http://www.exoticpetsandprimates.com/ ). There are other ones out there that are less reputable.. 

I have some doubts that they are actually smuggled animals but some either LTC (which would technically be imports) or "repackaged" cb by which the price could be inflated. 

Ed


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

I personally think if he has them from the source he states then there's no way they could be legal/ltc or other.. 

funny if this was a EU member you would all jump on him and shout smuggler! even for a frog that does well in captivity like vanzolinii or mysteriosus that have been CB for generations and breed as easy as imitator or auratus you would jump on them for being a smuggler let alone if they where to post they had lehmanni fresh out the freakin jungle. 

Ed I agree with enough $ you can get practically any animal you would want you can even do that here with all our crazy animal laws :roll:


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

black jungle has lehmanni right? If im right on that does anybody know if they have had any luck reproducing them


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## stevemc (Aug 13, 2007)

It does sound like he is a total newbie by the questions asked before. Probing a frog? Did anyone tell him frogs dont have internal sex/mating, and that frogs dont have a penis/hemipenis? And some of the statements also. Male aggression, others. Maybe he is just trolling. But as someone else posted, that he may be someone who has connections to be able to smuggle one of these, that would be very unlikely as who in their right mind would announce that? Maybe he is just name dropping, and not doing a good job of it. Such as he knew someone who was the first to breed D. auratus in 1985? I would assume he means just at that zoo. That was no great trick back then. It does sound like he knows nothing at all about frogs in general, and picked out a real nice looking frog specie that he wanted to have, not knowing anything about them, and started trolling, to make it seem like he did seem like he was an expert. It seems like he is young and just starting in reptiles, and now wants to move into darts. Just my opinion from my observations.


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## stevemc (Aug 13, 2007)

MJ, it is apparent that he is here in the USA, and everyone is jumping on him for his apparent smuggling statements(which I dont even believe he has any). I dont think that people think just because someone is from Europe, Asia or the USA, or anywhere else, they are more prone to smuggling. We have our bad guys here too! I am sure it is a very little slice of each continent that does smuggle. I do have friends in the US Customs, and it is the drug smugglers that bring many of them in. I have heard of D. mysteriosus for years in Germany and smuggling never entered my mind. They got there somehow and most likely either from a zoo that received them from a busted smuggling operation, or with proper CITIES paperwork from both countries. Many scientists from all over do study and get permits to capture and bring in animals that us lowly normal citizens cant possibly get. But they do eventually end up in the pet trade. Steve.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Steve thanks fr your input  I am fully aware that every country around the world has problems with smugglers... but search smuggled or smuggler in the searh engine for this site read the posts and you will see my point :wink:


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## Yidso (Mar 16, 2007)

naja_naja said:


> black jungle has lehmanni right? If im right on that does anybody know if they have had any luck reproducing them


I've been to Black Jungle and didnt see one, atleast i dont remember seeing one. Maybe they dont have it on display. Next time i go there i'll ask them. 

-Yidso


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

off topic here... 


quote " Probing a frog? Did anyone tell him frogs dont have internal sex/mating, and that frogs dont have a penis/hemipenis?"endquote

While most anurans do not have internal fertilization there are some that do.. ( like the genus Nectophrynoides see http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0045-8511(19800501)3:1980:2%3C193:TRBONM%3E2.0.CO;2-8

as well as Ascaphus...). However probing will not work as a sex determinant there are instances of internal fertilization in anurans (and substitutes for penis/hemipenes that allow this to occur). 

quote "to be able to smuggle one of these, that would be very unlikely as who in their right mind would announce that?"endquote 

I prefer to look at it with a little more cynical point of view.... 

snip "Maybe he is just name dropping, and not doing a good job of it. Such as he knew someone who was the first to breed D. auratus in 1985? I would assume he means just at that zoo. That was no great trick back then."endsnip

Hmm, the number of times it popped up in the literature makes it sound like it was a big deal to breed auratus back then..... 

Ed


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## stevemc (Aug 13, 2007)

I didnt know about the internal fertilization. I couldnt get the link to work though. Did I read it right that it was rare in 1985 to have bred D. auratus? Maybe it was and I was just in a sheltered area and hung with a sheltered group of frog breeders. I thought it was common practice, at least common for the few who tried. Back then I kind of thought breeding red eyed tree frogs was just like any other type of tree frog, which it was, until I was called late one night (1 AM)by someone in California, who wrote a book on breeding red eyed tree frogs, whom I met prior at a reptile show and bought his book which told me nothing, and he picked my brain for a while about how I was able to repeatdly could get them to lay year round. I asked him"dont you get them to breed year round?" And he said he only got 1 or 2 clumps. Ever. And that co-incided with a rain storm. And he wrote a book about it! So maybe it was rare back then to get D. auratus to lay eggs. Others were doing it, but I guess not writing about it.


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## Troy (May 17, 2007)

*darts*

i did not say they where smuggled and i was asking why some one said they could sex frogs from probing some else said they could probe to tell the sex this thing has gotten way out of hand sorry for asking or stating problems


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

so how did you get them into the US from south america? :roll:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

For the internal fertilization in the spray toads.. 

see Marvalee H. Wake;1980; The Reproductive Biology of Nectophrynoides malcolmi (Amphibia: Bufonidae), with Comments on the Evolution of Reproductive Modes in the Genus Nectophrynoides 
Copeia, Vol. No. 2 pp. 193-209


Reproduction in captivity of any of the dendrobatids was not real common back in 1985 at least in the USA.. this was the year before Zimmerman and Zimmerman's book came out in the US where they described in detail a process for breeding them. Other references include 

Emmer, R. 1991. Husbandry and breeding of dart-poison frogs (Dendrobates auratus and D. tinctorius). Vivarium. 2(6):8-11;18;35.

Ferrier, W. 1996. Natural history & captive care of Dendrobates auratus. Reptile & Amphibian Magazine. 1996(July/Aug.):68-74. 

Hitchiner, J. 1993. Herp reproduction at Roger Williams Park Zoo. Monitor: Newsletter of the Hoosier Herpetological Society. 5(10):6-7.

Hotle, D. 1993. The husbandry and propagation of Dendrobates auratus at the Indianapolis Zoo. Captive Breeding. 1(3):4-7;26-28

I know other Zoos were breeding them back then (like Philadelphia Zoo) but these accounts went unpublished. 

Ed


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Ed why not make another thread for that and the other referances? :roll:


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Troy take some shit shots through the glass no flash..... show us ur lehmanni :lol:


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

MJ said:


> Troy take some shit shots through the glass no flash..... show us ur lehmanni :lol:



well MJ you seem to be the only moderator with a sense of humor but i could not agree more lets seem some pics or shall we just label troy as the worlds biggest douche now


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## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

naja_naja said:


> black jungle has lehmanni right? If im right on that does anybody know if they have had any luck reproducing them


awhile back i was talking to BJ and if i remember crorrect he said he had one lehmanni tad that morphed. he was keeping it alone however i dont think he had parrent frogs. from what i understood it was a tad he had along time and was having problems getting morph.
i could be wrong on this for this was like 4-5months ago, you would have to ask mike... it is mike right? i froget names so bad. :roll:


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## MRI_GUY (Jul 31, 2006)

*.*

Pass the popcorn Umbra. Can I get you a soda?


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

hypothetically if you found a lehmanni for sale how much would it be


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

^ I think your question is a perfect example of missing the point.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Paul,

If I posted those references in a different thread, then they would not have addressed the comments on those topics that were made in this thread nor corrected some of the misconceptions (such as there are no internal fertilization in anurans). I labeled it off topic so if there was interest it could be split off as there weren't any further comments, I considered it over due to a lack of interest. 

Ed


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

Marty71 said:


> ^ I think your question is a perfect example of missing the point.



ummm yeah because this whole topic isnt off subject to a great extent already and me inquiring about how much they cost isnt that off topic as off now it just seems to be more about lehmanni in general


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

naja_naja said:


> hypothetically if you found a lehmanni for sale how much would it be


I suspect $1000+ probably much more.

Bill


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> naja_naja said:
> 
> 
> > hypothetically if you found a lehmanni for sale how much would it be
> ...




well that is a hell of alot of money if lehmanni are that much how much are histrionicus?


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## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

naja_naja said:


> elmoisfive said:
> 
> 
> > [quote="naja_naja":goyf6kvx]hypothetically if you found a lehmanni for sale how much would it be
> ...




well that is a hell of alot of money if lehmanni are that much how much are histrionicus?[/quote:goyf6kvx]

Most likely in the same naborhood.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

stevemc said:


> Maybe he is just name dropping, and not doing a good job of it. Such as he knew someone who was the first to breed D. auratus in 1985? I would assume he means just at that zoo. That was no great trick back then.


I know what he is referencing and he got the date wrong among other things. This was apparently the first report of successful breeding of any dendrobatid in the US:

Grow, D. 1977. Reproduction of Dendrobates auratus at the SCZ. Kansas Herpetological Society Newsletter 1977: 9-12 

SCZ = Sedgewick County Zoo in Wichita KS.

Let me be perfectly clear on what I said earlier. If this is the guy I met many years ago (and there are certain details that fit and I will leave it at that), then he knows people who could get lehmanni but I doubt if it would be done legally. By his own admission, these frogs came through Brazil (which I agree seems far fetched but remember we import dendrobatids from out of range countries all the time - Europe and North America). So if he has the animals, then he either has CITES papers or the frogs are smuggled. Which is why I've asked to see evidence of CITES and import permits. If he doesn't have them, then someone from the USFWS should knock on his door.

But for the record, you guys suck at trying to get to the bottom of a very serious matter. With a bit of tact, we might have been able to get more information here. But jumping all over a guy and calling him a liar and an idiot is most likely to chase him back into the shadows and we may never know the real story here. If Troy is just trolling, then he must be laughing his butt off at this thread. If the animals are smuggled, then it should be dealt with in ways other than just ridiculing. And if Troy really has legal lehmanni, then shame on us for not helping.


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

naja_naja said:


> Marty71 said:
> 
> 
> > ^ I think your question is a perfect example of missing the point.
> ...


Once again missing the point. While all of this is off topic it got to this point because people reacted to somebody's questions about a frog that is all but immpossible to be obtained legally. Why would you ask to set a price on something that can not be obtained legally? Who could that possibly encourage?


I also agree with what Brent said. One way or the other it was an opportunity to possibly help the frogs involved. That's the point, isn't it?


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

Marty71 said:


> naja_naja said:
> 
> 
> > Marty71 said:
> ...


hmm well yeah either legal or not the frogs well being should be top priority if the frogs in question even exist they should be given to a facility that could care for them properly or me either one would work fine


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

sbreland said:


> Stuff



interesting one of two people who defend him and yet you would just as soon sick the 5-O on him i dont think that because of his obsession with a frog and if he did obtain them i dont think he should be punished for it for he most likely did not know himself if they were smuggled and whos to say that he wont be able to take care of them properly if enough effort is put into something i believe any body can have any frog they want perhaps hes the godsend that figures out some way on how to breed them yeah think about that


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

naja_naja said:


> sbreland said:
> 
> 
> > Stuff
> ...


This is very disturbing to me. What you are condoning is smuggling and the destruction of wild populations. If these animals were smuggled, then justice should be served and part of that justice would be confiscating the animals and placing them in an appropriate facility. We all have a responsibility to conduct ourselves ethically. There is no excuse for not being aware that lehmani have some serious legal issues surrounding them. To obtain lehmani without making absolutely sure they were completely legal is inexcusable. We aren't talking about auratus or some ther frogs whose exact origins were lost several captive bred generations ago. In 1994, 30 lehmani were legally imported into the US. There are some legal speicimens in the country and there have been some rare captive breeding successes. It should not be a trick to verify that an animal came from those 1994 animals or an earlier import for which records no longer exist. If the animals are recent imports, then there will be CITES and USFWS import permits for the animals.

We cannot say that we are concerned about the survival of these species and then act in ways that threaten that survival. Again, my apologies to Troy if, in fact, his animals are legal. But it is difficult to see how they could be if the details presented here are true.


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

naja_naja said:


> sbreland said:
> 
> 
> > Stuff
> ...


Ignorance is not an acceptable excuse or even plausible. Robert


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have some doubts that they were exported directly from Brazil to the US due to Brazil's policies but I am aware of Brazilian endemics showing up in pet trade in other countries (like Japan) that were exported from Peru. 

Ed


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

Now im not condoning smuggling but this guy seem as though he thought or knew they were legal and if someone told me they were legal i dont think i would ask that many questions because in the end unless the shipper is sending you documents all you have is his word which im sure could be fake anyway and a couple thousand u.s is what a mansion with beachfront property down there so i could see someone making a shady deal while throwing on a very good act SO I REPEAT I DO NOT CONDONE SMUGGLING IN ANYWAY OKAY


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

The point is that if they were obtained by someone with little experience they were most likely smuggled. Its rather clear as anyone with them would be very cautious who they go to. In turn any responsible hobbiest would turn down such frogs and allow only the most experienced to work with them.

I know I have turned down a number of frogs due to the fact that I felt I could not care for them well enough.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I've done this quite often as well - to me it is the sign of an educated frogger.

You need to know what you can handle ...

s


kyle1745 said:


> ... I know I have turned down a number of frogs due to the fact that I felt I could not care for them well enough.


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## MRI_GUY (Jul 31, 2006)

I am new here and have little experience with these types of animals. I will say though that from what I have read this guy claims to have a difficult and endagered species. If so he has violated the law in one of 2 ways. He has either knowingly imported a rare and difficult species and needs to be brought to task for it, ot he has unwittingly acquired an rare and difficult species and needs to relinquish it to the proper authorities for transfer to an appropriate facility for proper care. Pull his IP address, forward it to the proper agencies and alert them to a possible smuggling. If he was malicious he should pay. If he was a rube, he should cooperate and help lead to the smugglers. Either way it needs to move beyong this board. Just the opinions of a novice, for what they are worth.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

^ In part that is very similar to what my posts said, so i agree 100%


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Interesting to see that these discussions where going on here allready long time ago, and it seems that a lot of people still didn't learn nothing..


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Same topic-same fighting.
Nothing new here.

John


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

So let's say that the situation that came up in this thread happened again. Someone in the US ends up with frogs of critical conservation concern. Maybe they are suffering from "intermediate syndrome" and are in over their head. Maybe not.

I'm not looking to rehash the smuggling thread- it's been done.

But as a community, what are our suggested steps for this situation? If the frogs are here, how do we make the best of it for the frogs as a species?

I imagine step one is to see if TWI/ASN has a taxon management plan for the species in question.

What are the other steps?


-Afemoralis


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Step one is to stop the possibility to allow illegal frogs from coming in..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fred said:


> Step one is to stop the possibility to allow illegal frogs from coming in..


Here we go again.. instead of flooding the forum by resurrecting old dead threads, and repeating statements that have been shown to historically not work in any type of smuggling scheme why not stick to the current threads? 

Ed


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

fred said:


> Step one is to stop the possibility to allow illegal frogs from coming in..


Okay, Fred is in charge of stopping possibilities.

Does anyone else have ideas for critical management once they are here? 

-Afemoralis


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

fred said:


> Step one is to stop the possibility to allow illegal frogs from coming in..


Here we go... how bout we fix this up nice and pretty... all we have to do is change two words...

"Step one is to stop the possibility to allow illegal frogs from going out.."

There ya go, nice and perfect now


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Afemoralis said:


> Okay, Fred is in charge of stopping possibilities.
> 
> Does anyone else have ideas for critical management once they are here?
> 
> -Afemoralis


Sea,
According to fred in the other threads his management plan for once they are here is to gather them up and send them back to Colombia...


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

So I believe I have been caught up, yes he is a troll. Smuggling is hands down not supported by the board, and I agree with all that has been said by senior members. Perhaps I can cap off this post with a picture I received from a mutual friend in the zoo business down in south america that proves when in the right hands success in breeding can happen. Just a few metamorph Histo's and Lehmanni, Enjoy. 

* Image taken in native range institution where they truly belong, not stateside *


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

That is AWESOME, can he send you some pics of the setups they're using and husbandry info?


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

widmad27 said:


> Perhaps I can cap off this post with a picture I received from a mutual friend in the zoo business down in south america that proves when in the right hands success in breeding can happen. Just a few metamorph Histo's and Lehmanni, Enjoy.
> 
> * Image taken in native range institution where they truly belong, not stateside *


Good to know it can happen! Which are which?

-Afemoralis


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

widmad27 said:


> So I believe I have been caught up, yes he is a troll. Smuggling is hands down not supported by the board, and I agree with all that has been said by senior members. Perhaps I can cap off this post with a picture I received from a mutual friend in the zoo business down in south america that proves when in the right hands success in breeding can happen. Just a few metamorph Histo's and Lehmanni, Enjoy.
> 
> * Image taken in native range institution where they truly belong, not stateside *


Oh c'mon, those are just banded leucs


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

Chris, sent on by a mutual friend I do not have direct contact with the keepers doing the work. But I can do some looking around.

Afemoralis, I believe the red individuals are bullseye histo's. Larger yellow individual in the lower right corner is a lehmanni, but generally to me an unidentifiable histo, lehmanni grab bag photo.


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## ktewell (Dec 17, 2009)

sbreland said:


> Oh c'mon, those are just banded leucs


No, clearly they are plastic toys.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

widmad27 said:


> Chris, sent on by a mutual friend I do not have direct contact with the keepers doing the work. But I can do some looking around.
> 
> Afemoralis, I believe the red individuals are bullseye histo's. Larger yellow individual in the lower right corner is a lehmanni, but generally to me an unidentifiable histo, lehmanni grab bag photo.


Thanks, any info like that would be great.

To my untrained eye, I would say those are caramel/saddlebacks, yellow lehmanni, and anchicaya - which are supposedly a large, natural cross between yellow lehmanni and redheads.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

At some point in one of the earlier related threads, someone mentioned, and had a small thumbnail of a morph guide for this group of frogs. Can anyone tell me more about that morph guide? Is it a poster? Available online?

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Afemoralis said:


> At some point in one of the earlier related threads, someone mentioned, and had a small thumbnail of a morph guide for this group of frogs. Can anyone tell me more about that morph guide? Is it a poster? Available online?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Afemoralis


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/45853-histrionicus-morphs-9.html#post412902

I think Phil is selling hard copies of it too


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## Bob Fraser (Nov 21, 2007)

Why buy it when you can just copy it?


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Wow! That is great! Nice Job! I'll buy one!

Using the poster for common terminology, can we get a list going of the frogs in this group that are already in the US? 

Is it a specific morph of lehmani that Fred is worried about down in Colombia? Or is it all lehmanni that are in such serious trouble?

Afemoralis


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi Dan (widmat27),

I believe I recognize these frogs..
These are probably the frogs my friend is breeding here in Colombia in a conservation-program in a Zoo.

Maybe we have the same mutual friend..


by the way; how do you put pictures here? can find nowhere options or info how to do that..


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Afemoralis said:


> Wow! That is great! Nice Job! I'll buy one!
> 
> Using the poster for common terminology, can we get a list going of the frogs in this group that are already in the US?
> 
> ...


O.lehmanii are all in trouble, there are only red and yellow that i know of and they exist in a very small and fragmented range with farming surrounding the area.



fred said:


> by the way; how do you put pictures here? can find nowhere options or info how to do that..


i want to say that i think this has gotten way out of hand, and i dont really support this topic continuing since there has not been nor will there be any change made from these discussions (that i've seen) the ONLY outcome i see is bringing negative light to a hobby that IMO does pretty well. i have NEVER seen any mystis, or lehmanii, etc. for sale here, unlike some other places, so give it a rest. 

whew!

fred this is how you upload pics;









james


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

james67 said:


> i want to say that i think this has gotten way out of hand, and i dont really support this topic continuing since there has not been nor will there be any change made from these discussions (that i've seen) the ONLY outcome i see is bringing negative light to a hobby that IMO does pretty well.


Hi. I know it's getting tiresome, but I do think we are making some progress. Everyone who reads this thread is at least thinking about Lehmanni, and frog smuggling, in the context of the hobby. And that is a step in the right direction.

If folks don't feel comfortable posting, I would be grateful of PM's regarding what morphs/species in this group they have seen in the US in say... the last 10 years or so? Seen with your own eyes, please. Not real interested in second-hand information. Information on what has been CB would be especially welcome. I'm just trying to make a list of what is here.

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi James,

Thanks for trying, but I still don't see how to add pictures..(img)insert url here (/img)
I'm not a computer wizzard..maybe there is another way? must be simple..

It's not in any way my meaning to put the hobby in your country in any negative light..
There is not much difference with most other country's in this matter.

But there is a way for you all to put your hobby in a positive light..doesn't matter if it is in the USA or somewhere else.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

EXAMPLE:










without the ----- before and after the link

use "[" "]" and NOT "(" ")"


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

Fred in the posting screen, look for an area called *Additional Options* there is a section labeled *Attach Files*. Select the button labeled *Manage Attachments*, once in this window there are some buttons labeled Select File. This allows you to select any pictures from your computer to the given post. Once selected, hit upload in the lower right corner of that section. The file should now be attached and once the post is up so to will be the picture.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fred said:


> Hi James,
> 
> Thanks for trying, but I still don't see how to add pictures..(img)insert url here (/img)
> I'm not a computer wizzard..maybe there is another way? must be simple..
> ...


Whatever image you are trying to upload first needs to be online, like at flickr or photobucket...or off a website. Right click it, and hit "copy image url"

Then in the box where you are typing out your post there are all these little buttons above the white space where you type your words like im doing now... One of those boxes is a yellow box that looks like a mountain and the sun or moon, whatever. click that and a box will appear and ask you to type in the url of the image u wanna post. click control-V to paste the url into that box, hit OK. what that box does is automatically insert the Tags for you ;) 

You're done. Continue writing your post, and/or repeat to add more images.

Good luck!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

reviving this thread from the dead, huh


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Thanks for the tips, i'll try to put some pictures, but at this moment my mobile internet is very slow..


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## FrogNick (May 3, 2009)

Fred,

Erik Schoop has bred these, and is based in Germany. Would be worth droppping him a PM he's on DendroWorld.


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## FrogNick (May 3, 2009)

FrogNick said:


> Fred,
> 
> Erik Schoop has bred these, and is based in Germany. Would be worth droppping him a PM he's on DendroWorld.


Troy not Fred


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi FrogNick,

Thanks, but I was allready familiar with that..

On his website and from others you can see some lehmanni and many histrionica-morphs, and other illegal frogs, 'that are all from the same import in the eighties..' yeah, right..

Offcourse once and a while someone gets young frogs, but it doesn't mean this provides a stable position in the hobby..these frogs are all the time for many years coming in illegal.

And this situation is what you get if the authorities are doing nothing against it.

Shameful!!


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## FrogNick (May 3, 2009)

fred said:


> Hi FrogNick,
> 
> Thanks, but I was allready familiar with that..
> 
> ...


Yeah I agree with that at the end of the day it’s not so much if a frog is illegal or not its whether it can be sustained in the hobby that’s where the big problem lies and if it can’t be sustained then you would always have people importing them.

Wish people would give up with these types of frogs they have been around for a long time now and still have not taken off in the hobby, its not going to happen!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FrogNick said:


> Yeah I agree with that at the end of the day it’s not so much if a frog is illegal or not its whether it can be sustained in the hobby that’s where the big problem lies and if it can’t be sustained then you would always have people importing them.
> 
> Wish people would give up with these types of frogs they have been around for a long time now and still have not taken off in the hobby, its not going to happen!


There is an inherent problem with the statement as it fails to take into account the history of successes that make the hobby progress. If this statement was made 60 years ago, it would mean that virtually no herps (or even a wide range of mammals) would be acceptable as pets (and please note that for a long time, exotic pets were animals that were kept successfully in labs.. Xenopus, hamsters, gerbils, guinea pigs to name a few).. 
It does not accept or forcast potential furture successes with various species. This is not to be taken as condoning smuggling or purchase of illegal frogs but as a statement ignored and excluded by the above opinion. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I could be wrong, but I think if lehmanni, histrionica, and sylvatica came in now in good numbers and were shipped over as quickly and well packed as possible and treated with meds (and possibly given some time to settle, before being shipped off again) they'd have a decent shot of becoming established in the hobby. 

There are more experienced keepers with larger setups now then ever, and people do have success with them. There is just such small populations in the hobby of them now (that we kinda know what we are doing finally) and they aren't as prolific or easy to raise as other darts that their numbers in the hobby grow slowly if at all. 

I'd like to see them end up in the hands of the most experienced people though and not just the random person that can blow 500+ a frog.

But as I said...I could be wrong


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi Dendro Dave,

You are right; it is for sure good possible to breed with these frogs.
You need good, healthy animals to start with, big numbers are not important; like you said; more experienced people should work with them to begin with.
Also it would help a lot if the frogs would be coming from a breeding farm, and not be taken from the wild.

They are not really very difficult, when you have good healthy frogs, under the right conditions, just let them go their own way and they will reproduce, only they are by far not so productive as most other species.

In the eighties, most people were not able to breed with them, (not even with pumilio's), and also the conditions how the frogs got imported (allmost all males) were bad, so most didn't survive long.

Because of this, you can imagine that most (or all) of these frogs in the hobby at this moment are being smuggled, for years and years this is going on.

The point is that because these frogs don't reproduce very fast, they are very vulnerable in the wild, and populations will not restore easy from poaching.
That is in the first place what we should be thinking of.


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

ebrady said:


> i know im probably going to get ripped apart for this because im a newer board member and not that experienced in the hobby yet but i dont think this is the place for people to fight. this board is suppose to be about education not poking fun at others and arguing. i really cant believe kyle hasnt jumped in yet no offense but sometimes im afraid to post anything on this board bc people can just be a**holes
> 
> this discussion makes me second guess myself every time i want to ask for help from others on the board bc somebody may say something demeaning or nasty


 Funny thing is, MJ used to erase peoples posts all the time for arguing, etc. I see that rule does not apply anymore....


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