# Mixed species



## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Why is it that everyone goes Ape poo over the thought of a mixed species tank when for example red eyed tree frogs have a range from southern mexico to panama. So, in the wild, red eyes, pumilio, and auratus for example share the same habitat. 
Leucs and some Tincs have an overlapping distribution range. As do Vents, imis,retics, and fantasticus with each other.
Vents have also been found in the same distribution range as tincs in some parts of north eastern Brazil, although in far less numbers than closer to the pacific coast.
So, when talking about setting up a naturalistic vivarium, why is it unthinkable that a viv with plenty of floor space as well as vertical space could house red eyes,pumilio, and auratus, or vents, tincs, and luecs. As well as some of the other small tree frogs from the specific region.

Researchers have said for many years that central illinois is the most biologically diverse place in the united states. With more species of flora and fauna than anywhere else in the US. I have found both gray and green tree frogs in the back yard at the same time. It is not a matter of the green tree frogs are only in my neighbors yard and the gray tree frogs are in my yard.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

im a beginner in dart frogs (i never had any but im currently learning)
i got a 85gallon tank for dart frogs ( i have no idea which yet)
i was reading my book for the exact same thing you are sayin...
i was gonna ask why i couldnt mix p.terribilis with d.leucs ... 
i can fully understand that it is not a good idea to mix species in small tank but wut bout my tank? 85gallon? i wish i could put a p.terribilis and a d.leuc in there.. i dont think they would fight or stress up...
or do they always fight in the nature altho they cohabit the same areas?
wut bout p.bicolor and terribilis, can we mix those 2? they re almost the same
if yeah, i might try 1 yellow, 1mint, 1oj, 1-2bicolor
wut would happen if my yellow would breed with my mint? is that wuts not wanted in mixing?


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

Im no expert but species that co-exist in the wild have free roam to move away if threatend. by putting different species in a viv even a 100+gallon tank is by far no comparison to the space available to them in the wild if stressed by another presense

thats just one reason.. as you will soon find out


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

There are several reasons, but the two biggest concerns are crossbreeding (not an issue for example with red eyes and darts or even leucs and terriblis), and lack of space. In the wild a threatened frog can move 10ft, 50 ft, 100ft, or more if needed to get away from a more aggressive frog. In most tanks they have 4' or less to get away from threat. 

In an 85G I could see leucs and terriblis working out together, but if it's your first tank (certainly sounds like it is) I wouldn't do that yet. Learn how to take great care of one species, then think about diversifying.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Do a search and read up... thier are tons of examples why.... This conversation never leeds down a good road.
Brian


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Notice I said given ENOUGH terrestrial , and vertical space. I'm not rehashing the same old debate which has hundreds of posts to its credit. I get the impression that alot of people think no species should ever come in contact with each other. 

If you had an enclosure say 8 feet long 4 feet deep and 7 feet tall. Would you consider that vents and tincs could co exist? The tincs would have 32 square feet of floor space and the vents would have 56 square feet of back wall space. Versus each getting 2 and a half square feet in an EXO 18 cube.

And no, an 85 gallon is not big enough.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is a little more to it than the spatial components. (If you have read it already) Read past the point where its about how much space is available to the frogs in this thread and there are some other real concerns that need to be addressed. see beginner-discussion/topic4532.html

As noted in that thread, there is a need to try and stay within zoogeographic correct regions as it helps to prevent exposure to pathogens/parasites for which nonzoogeographic correct species would be naive (this has been a problem with both chytrid in amphibians, mycoplasma in tortoises, and some viruses for examples). 
Additionally noted in that thread there is a need to pay attention to the behavior of the frogs. For example in heavily polymorphic species like tinctorius (or especially pumilio), frogs that are shaped similarly and behave similarly may be considered to be competitors for mate and egg deposition sites and these needs must be met in an adequate fashion to prevent aggression and stress issues. 
Another item that needs to be taken into consideration is the food items, with your example with RETFs, the large food items for the RETFS in an enclosed volume of a terrarium would be the bigger concern for stressing the dendrobatids. This is in part due to the fact that the frogs are enclosured in a smaller volume of space than is found in the wild and unlike in the natural habitat, the frogs cannot simply move out of the range of the problem. 





FwoGiZ said:


> im a beginner in dart frogs (i never had any but im currently learning)
> i got a 85gallon tank for dart frogs ( i have no idea which yet) i was reading my book for the exact same thing you are sayin...i was gonna ask why i couldnt mix p.terribilis with d.leucs ...
> i can fully understand that it is not a good idea to mix species in small tank but wut bout my tank? 85gallon? i wish i could put a p.terribilis and a d.leuc in there.. i dont think they would fight or stress up... or do they always fight in the nature altho they cohabit the same areas?
> wut bout p.bicolor and terribilis, can we mix those 2? they re almost the same
> ...



If you read through the thread I listed above, one of the main points I was making is that the larger the aquarium, typically the smaller the space available for the frogs. In addition, if you read through that thread, you would also see that there is a discussion on how similarly shaped frogs with similar behaviors are probably not the best choice as they will trigger aggression against one another...I suggest to read through the article. 


Ed


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

I agree with the food size and the cricket issue. I feed my RETFs in a suspended glass cylinder I hang in the enclosure at lights out. the RETFs climb in eat the crickets and climb out. in the morning I remove the container. Only problem is they are fat from not hunting. If one used this method to feed the RETFs, the Auratus would not be stressed by the crickets. Both are from the same zoogeographic correct regions.
Also. The Vents and the Tincs have both been found within a few feet of each other in North eastern Brazil. Both eat the same size prey, and both are from the same zoogeographical correct regions. 

So, two species from the same zoogeographical correct regions, same food items, one being arboreal, the other terrestrial, different body types, and all spatial conditions met as well.

What is the problem with this?

See, I am not talking about just meeting the spatial conditions of the frogs like has been discussed in the past.
There have been discussions in the past about setting up a biotope of the wild habitat of the species with all plants being native to the area, substrate a close proximity to the region, exact temperature and humidity, etc.
Well, my question is if all of those conditions were met, which would be a challenge, and an enclosure was a huge one, and one species was arboreal and the other terrestrial both from the same area in the wild which is the area the biotope is a copy of, why not then???????????

Ed, I have read that post several times. All 5 pages. And as pointed out several times in that post people do keep multiple species tanks. Some have a problem with it some do not.

I have kept PDFs and various other amphibians for almost 20 years. I have taken numerous zoology and biology courses at SIU because vets back then knew about lizards but not frogs and I needed to be able to ensure my frogs were healthy. 

I am not encouraging mixing species from other regions, or mixing species in standard size tanks. 

I am asking why people disagree with the above scenerio with the risk of pathogens from other regions taken out of the picture because both are from same regions. The risk of stress taken out of the picture due to a heavily planted enclosure with plenty of hide spots and roaming spots for all. and both eat same prey and plenty of prey is provided.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Scott,

Another reason we go ape-poo over this issue is because of experience - many of us have already made this mistake, seen the outcome of individuals who do while others have professional credentials and can give you all the technical reasons as to why this isn't a good idea.

This last month I had a customer come up and tell me that one of his frogs died. He had 3 frogs, an Azureus, an Auratus & a Cobalt Tinc in the tank. My first answer was "they died because of stress". I said this before he went any further.

He went on to tell me...no, I never saw them fight - each of them had their own area in the tank and didn't bother each other & leave that area. Again, I said "stress" and explained he probably had 3 males (based on his descriptions, etc.) who had their own territory. 

I could go on with the story further, but the number of people I remember who have been successful with mixing frog is very small. 

What i find intriguing, is why so many people still try to do it? Try a species specific tank first...and then if you still insist on mixing, set that tank up. Watch for differences, because there will be - and then let us know how things do.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Well, if you reread my post, I set up my first species specific tank in 1991. It was a simple tank with washed pea gravel and plants grown hydroponically that housed Auratus.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

i ralready ead your whole post Ed
i ll take that in mind if you guys are telling me 85gallon is still way too small... i guess you re talking about 300gal+ and stuffs like that
how many p.terribilis can i put in my 85 gallon still?? 38x22x23 i was hopin to put maybe 3? one of each color.. all female maybe? 
anyhow, i dont wanna go offtopic
i have a somewhat hard time beleiving all these darts frogs are stress from not being in the good substrate with the good plants... i know they have that in their genes, but how many generation have they gone thru in CB? ..to me, their natural habitats are kind of fake rocks, fake waterfall, glued substrate with 4 weird glass wall around their world and everynow and then a massive storm a FF gets thrown in there by their God.. no?
im just a noob at darts anyway, i own a few other frogs and i know that they re a lot tougher than those guys (still, it is not a good idea to mix!!)


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

3 Terriblis in an 85 is fine, but if you mix "colors" (morphs) then you should not mix male and female, as you don't want those to crossbreed. All male or all female would more than likely work out, but there's always a chance there will be aggression.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

tkromer said:


> 3 Terriblis in an 85 is fine, but if you mix "colors" (morphs) then you should not mix male and female, as you don't want those to crossbreed. All male or all female would more than likely work out, but there's always a chance there will be aggression.


And terribilis are hard to sex males are slightly smaller and the females can also call.
Brian


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Scott,

I guess this needs a more indepth discussion. (and I mean discussion, I do not intend to go ape poo over this as I think with some sufficient planning it can be done long-term successfully with multispecies.)



scott r said:


> I agree with the food size and the cricket issue. I feed my RETFs in a suspended glass cylinder I hang in the enclosure at lights out. the RETFs climb in eat the crickets and climb out. in the morning I remove the container. Only problem is they are fat from not hunting. If one used this method to feed the RETFs, the Auratus would not be stressed by the crickets. Both are from the same zoogeographic correct regions..


Yes they are from the same zoogeographic correct areas as species but you should also consider morphs as well. Distinct populations can have different exposures to different pathogens.. (look at A.tigrinum and different viruses). 

When evaluating potential hylid cohabitors, I try to look at the niche habitat of the frogs as well so some upper canopy dwelling species obviously would be a poorer choice than species that are found closer to the ground (or species that migrate to the ground for feeding). 




scott r said:


> Also. The Vents and the Tincs have both been found within a few feet of each other in North eastern Brazil. Both eat the same size prey, and both are from the same zoogeographical correct regions. ..


Yes but this can be very different niches in the same basic habitat. This is a little more difficult to mimic in captivity. 




scott r said:


> So, two species from the same zoogeographical correct regions, same food items, one being arboreal, the other terrestrial, different body types, and all spatial conditions met as well...


Actually they do not have significantly different body types (assuming you are still referring to vents and tinctorius). They are sized differently but have the same basic body and behavioral mechanisms (such as modes of feeding, hunting). For example, I have seen tricolor/anthonyi displaying territorial behaviors towards D. tinctorius "patricia" when in seperate but side by side enclosures until a visual barrier was placed between the two enclosures. There are a number of anecdotal reports of pumilio attempting to wrestle other species including sympatric species like auratus when housed together. 



scott r said:


> What is the problem with this?


See my comments above. 



scott r said:


> See, I am not talking about just meeting the spatial conditions of the frogs like has been discussed in the past.
> There have been discussions in the past about setting up a biotope of the wild habitat of the species with all plants being native to the area, substrate a close proximity to the region, exact temperature and humidity, etc.
> Well, my question is if all of those conditions were met, which would be a challenge, and an enclosure was a huge one, and one species was arboreal and the other terrestrial both from the same area in the wild which is the area the biotope is a copy of, why not then???????????


It would be much easier to do this with a small hylid than another dendrobatid unless you were able to get the niches really seperated. It can be done with dendrobatids but you need to put a lot more effort into choosing species with lower aggressive issues. 
For example D. truncatus may be a good place to start if you really want to try a long term setup. I would have to pull out the maps and really compare but some of the Ranitomeya may be close enough zoogeographically to meet the criteria. 



scott r said:


> Ed, I have read that post several times. All 5 pages. And as pointed out several times in that post people do keep multiple species tanks. Some have a problem with it some do not.
> 
> I have kept PDFs and various other amphibians for almost 20 years. I have taken numerous zoology and biology courses at SIU because vets back then knew about lizards but not frogs and I needed to be able to ensure my frogs were healthy.


The problem with threads like this, the history of discussion does need to get put back up as other people attempt to jump in and try to justify why they should be able to do it, or not. I wasn't sure if you had read through that discussion but it summed up a lot of work on my part. (I've been keeping herps for something along the lines of 34 years or so now.. and have been working with them professionally for more than 20, I spent almost 8 years or so working in the pet trade outside of and along with the ZooKeeping..) . 




scott r said:


> I am asking why people disagree with the above scenerio with the risk of pathogens from other regions taken out of the picture because both are from same regions. The risk of stress taken out of the picture due to a heavily planted enclosure with plenty of hide spots and roaming spots for all. and both eat same prey and plenty of prey is provided.


One of the biggest mistakes as I mentioned in that thread is that people put together a system and then attempt to shoehorn the frogs into the percieved niches. It needs to be the otherway around. The niches for the frogs needs to be built and evaluated before the first animal is placed into the system. Additionally all of the animals if even remotely similar to one another need to be placed into the enclosure at the same time. Once territories are developed, it is very difficult to successfully integrate a species with a similar body/behavior type and any dendrobatids need to be counted as similar body/behavior types (which is why its easier to utilize sympatric hylids or eleuthrodactylids). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> This last month I had a customer come up and tell me that one of his frogs died. He had 3 frogs, an Azureus, an Auratus & a Cobalt Tinc in the tank. My first answer was "they died because of stress". I said this before he went any further.


I need to make a comment here.. stress as a response is going to be correct in virtually all circumstances.. 
Frog died from dessication.. stress (osmotic imbalance), some disease process.. stress again (stress from the disease process..)...

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FwoGiZ said:


> i ralready ead your whole post Ed
> i ll take that in mind if you guys are telling me 85gallon is still way too small... i guess you re talking about 300gal+ and stuffs like that
> how many p.terribilis can i put in my 85 gallon still?? 38x22x23 i was hopin to put maybe 3? one of each color.. all female maybe? !!)


If you read the thread, then you didn't understand one of the main points if you are still asking how many frogs can you place in it. The larger the standard enclosure the smaller the available space per frog when you work it out as the size and shape of the tank result in more swimming space for fish but not a lot of room for the frogs...... 





FwoGiZ said:


> i have a somewhat hard time beleiving all these darts frogs are stress from not being in the good substrate with the good plants... i know they have that in their genes, but how many generation have they gone thru in CB? ..to me, their natural habitats are kind of fake rocks, fake waterfall, glued substrate with 4 weird glass wall around their world and everynow and then a massive storm a FF gets thrown in there by their God.. no?
> im just a noob at darts anyway, i own a few other frogs and i know that they re a lot tougher than those guys (still, it is not a good idea to mix!!)


If you were talking about a species that has a short life span and rapid turnover of generations then you might have a point about captive adaptation however with good care dendrobatids can live well in thier upper teens and potentially into the twenty year range. This indicates that there probably hasn't been a lot of turn over of the populations allowing for adaptation to captive conditions. Thier natural habitats are not artificial but still natural...... 

Ed


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

i read and understood the concept, hence why im givin out the dimension
are you telling me that me asking how many i can put in a such tank is stupid?? are you telling me that there would be no difference if i put 3 or 20?
i said i was noob with dart but that doesnt make me stupid >_>
tx tkromer and brian!! i think i ll buy one of each color; should i get male or female? I like males cuz they sometimes sings, but i wudnt want em to fight... on the other side, female are bigger! i MIGHT breed em one day... who knows.... but that would be in a lot o time
take note that im only in the process of gathering ideas and information... im not gonna get those frogs before at least christmas 2009
tx a lot once again for the information everyone!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FwoGiZ said:


> i read and understood the concept, hence why im givin out the dimension
> are you telling me that me asking how many i can put in a such tank is stupid?? are you telling me that there would be no difference if i put 3 or 20?
> i said i was noob with dart but that doesnt make me stupid >_>!!


Well if you had got the concept about the space then you would know that if you set the tank up incorrectly you wouldn't have sufficient space for one frog much less two or three..regardless of the size of the tank. Sarcastically trying to take the exaggeration out to 20 also shows that you failed to get the concept.... 
Depending on who you listen to or talk to the correct number is somewhere between 0 and 17 provided you set the entire enclosure up correctly. If you look at territorial resources of wild dendrobatids then the space can be more than 50 square meters for one male.... 


Ed


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

i wasnt asking wut u wrote in other posts, i was asking for opinions and u just told me to read your post that i ALREADY read... cant i ask opinions without being tell to read posts? or are you telling me that after reading your thread, im suposed to know exactly how many frogs i can put in my tank? i just wanted to know an "estimée" .... i OBVIOUSLY know and understand that if i put a 24x24 rock right in the middle of the tank, i might have problem >_> sayin 3 terribilis for my tank is a good estimé and i just wanted to make sure i wasnt completely off
this isnt going anywhere tho, and we re hijacking the thread
i think we d need a lot of people to post here with real experience, not only what they read from people that thought that......... anyone here that have tried mixing species?? i mean, not a noob like me, but someone that had experience with some species, then tried to mix em?


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

I think what you're failing to grasp is that the vast majority of people that post on here and keep dendrobatids have not and will not mix species. In all reality, there is no benefit to mixing them and you can only do more harm than good. Keeping dendros is more about keeping the frogs in a healthy environment and doing our best to provide the best possible conditions for them. This does NOT include keeping mixed species together. Keeping mixed species together is a selfish thing to do because its for the keeper and nothing else. You're sacrificing quality of living for being able to keep multiple species together. I believe that if you truly want to keep multiple types of frogs where people can see them and be awed, build a couple more vivs and put them ALL out in the living room where people can stand and be amazed. The wow factor tends to be much more intense when you can show off more than just one enclosure. Do up a couple very nicely and people will want to come over way more than before!


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

In addition to the above comments, it is extremely difficult to find sexable adults of any of the terribilis for sale. They seem to mature and breed at a later age (2 years or so) than most of the PDFs. A juvenile orange or yellow terribilis will cost between $80 and $120 or so, and an adult (if you can find any) about three times that... Terribilis are also a frog that does okay in groups. It would seem to me, much more fun to have six or so in an 80 gallon.

One of the joys of keeping darts is the rich and interesting behavior - breeding and otherwise - displayed. Why rob yourself (and especially the frogs) of that part of the hobby? All the species I keep have different 'personalities', habits and behaviors. I can't imagine keeping any together. My cobalts trample each other and tumble around for food - they would simple murder the quieter/shyer auratus or leucs eventually. My terribilis eat anything around 1/2 inch that comes near them and ask questions later (in their mouths) - I could easily see them eating an imitator or a vent by mistake...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Although I'm relatively new to this addiction I totally agree with Thinair. I have four juv. d.auratus in a planted exo terra setup and its amazing seeing how each has its own specific personality. Beyond being incredibly bold and pretty much dominating all parts of the tank each frog has a specific hiding hole and feeding behavior. That said, the funniest thing is how all four frogs congregate at the same spot whenever i come into the room (on top of the coco hut) and wait to be fed. Don't ruin your opportunity to exp. species interaction by mixing!


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Yes, I totally agree with everyone. BECAUSE you all keep talking about Exoterras and fish tanks.

I'm saying if you had a green house 60 feet long x 30 feet wide x 12 feet tall set up like the biotope that the species come from and they were all from the same region exactly.

Would it be ok to keep more than one species in the greenhouse if one was arboreal and the other was terrestrial.

I'm not looking for permission to mix species. I have done it and not done it for almost 20 years. It is a question only.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Scott,

If you are asking permission to creat a mixed species tank, then you are barking up the wrong tree. The majority of people on this forum are against mixing, be it mixed morphs or mixing arboreal with terrestrial, it simply is frowned upon throughout the hobby. You can, and obviously will, od what you want. And yes, it may work for your particular setup and frogs, however there are many people on this forum that have tried and failed in one way or another at maintaining a mixed species tank. I would love to have that ultimate tank where there are multiple species all living together in harmony and no problems occurring, but I am realistic. If I were to ever mix species, it would be carefully researched and well thought out, with many questions asked to those that have successfully accomplished this. 

I feel you need to let this topic go and just understand that you "WILL NOT" get permission from the vast majority of people in the hobby to create a mixed tank. This also goes for a greenhouse, acre sized forest, or what other exaggerations you come up with. Be realistic, who has ever created a greenhouse sized vivarium and kept darts in it?? Even the big exhibits found in zoos are not necessarily designed with the frogs best interests in mind. Those display tanks are designed more for the observer than the frogs. 

What you need to do is think "what is best for the frogs health" Anything otherwise, and you can bet on people coming down on you. Please understand that there are a ton of people that think having a poison dart frog would be cool, but they do not research them, and they do not take care of them correctly, it is these people that make us harsh with newcomers. We want the frogs to be well cared for as true pets, and not as trophy objects only to be tossed away when someone is done getting their thrills. You may be an acomplished owner, but that doesn't mean you are free of faults. Nobody on here is. Please hear what is said with an open mind and heart and take responsibility with whatever pets you have. 

James


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

James, 
Yes, I agree we are all full of faults. However, I do not seek anyones permission to do anything. I will do exactly what I wish to do. And yes, I have made some mistakes. I was fortunate enough to own some frogs in the early 90s that are no longer available in the pet trade. 

However, my original question has not been answered. My question has nothing to do with a mixed tank. Or the mixing of species. It got sidetracked along the way and became about mixed tanks


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Scott,

Your original question: 


scott r said:


> Why is it that everyone goes Ape poo over the thought of a mixed species tank when for example red eyed tree frogs have a range from southern mexico to panama.


This has been answered in this thread numerous times now.


you say you are not looking for permission but the responses you have given when people have given you a direct answer tells otherwise. It has been a defensing tone like you were being personally attacked. If you were simply asking a question then why become defensive when someone gives you an answer you do not want to hear? 

If you legitimately have more concerns, then rephrase the question to address those, do not continue to put others comments down, or you will continue to receive negative comments. I do not agree with everything on this forum, however, when I pose a question or issue, I listen to what others are saying and try to see it from their point. 

I will not respond further on this matter because not only have others tried to give you your answer in this thread, but this same conversation has been repeated many times on this forum and the trend is the same. 

Either accept what others have said as their opinion and move on, or quit responding with the same question.

James


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

Well back to your first post, the question is why it is not considered viable within the hobby to mix species especially of those who share the same natural geographic home. First off, as much as we are tired of hearing this conversation, it is a legitimate question. People are caught up in a coral fish mentality where they would like to have several different but attractive animals living harmoniously in one tank.

And we all know how that way of thinking would lead to with darts. It is because of that mentality that giving any sort of leeway to those who enter the hobby would in all probability result in a bevy of problems and ultimately, numerous deaths that could have been avoided. Is there a chance it may work? Sure, people have done it. However, there is a long list of problems that can occur that you just can't argue against. It is these problems learned through experience that it is easier to just give the "NO" rather than "well maybe". To be honest, I'm sure no one would care about your financial losses if your mixing project went snafu. As for each individual frog, that is where the empathy would lie. With so many different causes for alarm, why risk it with another?

So when you ask if you can mix frogs, sure you can. Only you can truly control what you do. But if you want the support from members here, you're not going to get it. Their stance is for the good of the animals.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Thank you !

That is what I was asking. We all know that there will always be two sides of the fence in this issue. I was wanting to know what the reason peoples opinions were what they were.

* Because I tired it and lost my favorite ______________

or

Just because everyone else is against it 

or

Most enclosures just are big enough to make it possible.


I have made posts for and against the matter. Like the overcrowded and mixed tanks at zoos. 

I know why I think the way I think on the subject, I wanted to know why everyone else felt the way they did.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Many of the Zoos exhibits are misleading as they are young animals.

I think the overall negativity towards it is simple. Its just not recommended. That's not to say its not possible, but normally most peoples tanks are way too small to be successful with it. 

So the negatives I see are this:
- unneeded stress to the animals
- unpredictable results (most of these species are not from the same region in many cases)
- need for more space than normal
- Could be fine with young animals then turn into issues as they grow up

Positives:
Can't think of any...


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

kyle1745 said:


> Positives:
> Can't think of any...


In the end, you just have to ask yourself who do you want to benefit from it.

If you go for mixing, you save time and money from building another viv, and you build yourself a shared diverse show tank. All benefits to the owner.

At best for the frogs, the results will be neutral.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

from what i can understand now, is that you shouldnt mix NOT because you shouldnt mix... you shouldnt mix because you prolly dont know the frogs well enough, have too small of a tank, and OTHER reasons that makes it bad mixing species (it makes it bad to me just overcrowding them too)

i seen same species dart frog fighting, does that cause stress? they didnt mix species, prolly the tank was just too small

i might try mixing in maybe 1year or so and i ll put feedbacks here if you want, since it seems not many people here are able to do that, or just too lazy
i think scott was asking something similar, if other people were hot enough to achieve mixing good species in good environment

tx for all the opinions and information tho, very valuable to me and my frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FwoGiZ said:


> i seen same species dart frog fighting, does that cause stress? they didnt mix species, prolly the tank was just too small


The enclosure may have been large enough. The problem is that food availability, egg deposition and possibly calling sites and/or tadpole deposition sites are the limiting factors that determine the size of the needed territory. (some of the literature istrending towards suitable/acceptable egg deposition sites are some of the main driving factors). So if there aren't sufficient acceptable niches for the frogs, then there will be aggression, competition and stress on the frogs as they compete for these locations. So in some respects it doesn't matter how large the enclosure is, but how acceptable the frogs find it... In top quality habitat the density of even very territorial species (like pumilio) can be way higher than is currently accepted by today's standards. (see some of the pictures in Poison Frogs). 



FwoGiZ said:


> i think scott was asking something similar, if other people were hot enough to achieve mixing good species in good environment


It can be done but you really have to know the species, thier requirements, be able to know what indicates stress in them and set up the habitat so that there are sufficient acceptable niches for the frogs as well as sight barriers, multiple feeding stations.. etc. 

Ed


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

Hey Scottr, here is link of some people doing a journal about their mixed species greenhouse. I believe they had about 5 different species living in there. I think it was 20 m square. It has been a couple of years since I read it, so don't remember all the details.
http://www.plumifrons.com/Froggreen...History/tabid/225/language/en-US/Default.aspx
-Dave


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

woah i started to read that journal and it looks great... tx a lot for sharin that man!!!!!!!!!!!!
i think we can kindo close our discussion with the fact that in 95% of the cases, it isnt a good idea to mix species but we need to admit and understand that it is makable!! we just shouldnt do it for other reasons, mainly the tank setup as Ed says


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