# Bentonite clay/ kitty litter



## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

My misting system runs along the top edge of my vivarium, which creates a corridor where my frogs like to hang out and lay eggs. It's a little annoying that they like to sleep up there and the eggs are very difficult to remove/view. So I would like to fill it in. I am thinking about using bentonite kitty litter to make a putty which I can then fill in the gap with. This would run all along the entire top edge of my 55 gallon tank. So, to any of you with experience with this stuff...
1) Will it hold up without smearing down across the glass?
2) Is there any harm from the frogs jumping on it, which they will likely frequently do?

Thanks,
Mark


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Why do your frogs like to hang there and lay eggs. It has exactly what they want. It could be different temp or humidity. Maybe put up a sensor there and see what that spot has that the rest of your viv does not. From my understanding, amphibians seek out temp and humidity that best suits them, so there has to be something there they need. Just another way to think about it.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I think they hang out there because they are a climbing species (intermedius) in a viv which isn't as high as they would like, and its the highest spot. It also provides shelter for them. It's not like they are stressed out and trying to escape there; they do jump around the viv all day, but go up there to sleep and lay eggs (they also sometimes lay in film canisters and sleep other places). Regardless, my question is about an effective way of sealing off that area, not about frog behavior.

------------edit--------------
Jason, I reread my response and its sounds harsher than I meant it. Thanks for the advice.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Yea, no worries. Forums are a hard way to express how you say things.  

I don't think the kitty litter will harm them. You could also shove some wet sphagnum moss up there. That is what I do with spots I don't want my frogs to go.

Sometimes we get so focused we forget to get outside the box. I just wanted to point out the temp/humidity issue in case you didn't think of it.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't think the litter would bother the frogs. I'm like Jason though....I usually fill in areas that I don't want the frogs in with sphagnum.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Here's what I'm talking about. I think spagnum would work in some places but not all. Since the misting system run along both sides of the terrarium, which is 4 feet long, this will require sealing up a length of 8 feet total.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah, that might be a bit hard to cover with sphagnum. What about mounting some corkbark panels back there? I've done that before on an inhabited viv with no problems. I just stuck some industrial strength double sided tape on the back and stuck it on. I'm not sure how good the clay would look.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm in the same boat as the other guys. I don't think the kitty litter would necessarily harm the frogs, but it might make a mess of the glass as you mentioned. Also, I'd be concerned about it holding up in a moist environment over the long term.

I'm also a sphagnum stuffer.  I fill most gaps where I don't want frogs with it. In fact, for my latest viv, I wanted to use as little silicone as possible so I used a combo of cork slabs and moss to make a 'wall' 3/4 of the way up my EpiWeb. The broms are 'mounted' by wedging them between the gaps in the cork and stuffing the area with moss. 

In your viv, if you did go the moss route, you might find some tiny little vining plants that would root into the 'channel' of moss along the top (Peperomia prostrata? creeping fig?). This might help firm it up (roots) and would make a visually appealing (IMO) background.

My two cents.


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## loogielv (Nov 28, 2008)

any updates? just curious what you found out? also, did you test that area for differences from the rest of the viv?

I hate the idea of taking away a place they like...


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

No, they haven't laid any more clutches up there recently, so I'm not so worried about it. I did buy some kitty litter though and have tested some different mixes to see if any hold up well to being sprayed with water. I haven't found any so far. My only concern is that they may be going up there to cool off when the viv gets too hot (because the glass is probably the coolest part of the viv).


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## loogielv (Nov 28, 2008)

what about moving them temporarily and filling it with silicone?


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I filled in a section of it the other day as a test. I mixed a bunch of peat with a little bentonite, then kept adding water and bentonite until I got a good consistency. I ended up using very little bentonite relative to peat, and it looks like peat (and is attractive enough). The key was to keep mixing and kneading it very well. If it holds up for a week without creating significant streaking down the glass then I will do it to the whole viv. I'll post pictures when I'm done.
-mark


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Ed Kowalski has a tank where he used a mixture of bentonite and peat on the background and in the substrate. It has had water dripping on it constantly for the past 3 years and has held up well. Keep us posted, would love to see pics. I'm gonna mess around with calcium bentonite soon too.


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## loogielv (Nov 28, 2008)

gosh, I really wish you'd play around with what is making them stay up there. you mentioned concern for heat, so instead of finding out if you lower the temp a bit if they'll stay outta there, you're just gonna lock them out of it. 

Please try to figure out what the deal is. You might learn something special about your frogs, or about the way you keep your vivs. A lesson learned...as they say.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Update:
Here is the thread with Ed's bentonite tank that corpus was referring to.

Initially, when I started playing around with the bentonite, I mixed up pure bentonite and water to make clay. This clay erodes very quickly when water is run over it and would cause streaking if used along the top of the glass. Mixing peat with bentonite creates a very good composite. It seems to hold up well, not erode and has a nice appearance. This was how I made it...
1) get a bunch of peat and get it damp, but not wet
2) sprinkle in a little bentonite (maybe about 1/10 the volume of peat used)
3) add a couple drops of water and knead the mixture until all of the bentonite has dissolved. There should be no granules of bentonite visible. 
4) If all of the bentonite has dissolved and the mixture still crumbles apart, add more water and bentonite. At the best consistency, the mixture should be hard but under enough pressure will extrude between your fingers like clay. Do not make it too wet/goopy. Also, it should still have a very similar color to peat.
5) This can be pressed into the cracks and will hold form well. If allowed to dry out, it might crack, but my tank remains humid enough that I don't think this will be a problem for me.
NOTE: Adding the bentonite to the peat causes it to compact significantly, so the amount of peat you start with will be only about half of what you end with.

This mixture seems to cause absolutely no streaking. I haven't yet finished sealing up me tank, because I want to be able to see all 3 frogs when I'm doing it (and thus know that I am not building them a sarcophagus). I'll take some pictures when I'm done.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

loogielv said:


> gosh, I really wish you'd play around with what is making them stay up there. you mentioned concern for heat, so instead of finding out if you lower the temp a bit if they'll stay outta there, you're just gonna lock them out of it.
> 
> Please try to figure out what the deal is. You might learn something special about your frogs, or about the way you keep your vivs. A lesson learned...as they say.


I appreciate your concern, but I'm not worried about them. As a said before, they would like more vertical space to climb... but they aren't going to get it. BTW, lower temps have had no effect on where they sleep. The tank is fairly sparsely planted (I didn't put in any creeping plants, only broms and orchids), so they would probably like more secluded spots to sleep. I have recently added some philodendron which should eventually give them more cover, once it spreads. Here is a viv shot from a couple months ago.


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Overall, I've been happy with the results. Perhaps I should have started with it a tad bit wetter and spend more time smoothing it out and making it look pretty, but I couldn't see what I was doing and I didn't want the frogs to hop out. 

Here is a shot of the same spot I showed earlier (through the glass).









They were a little freaked out at first that their hiding spot was gone. The kept jump up into the lid and circling the top of the tank, and I felt pretty guilty.









But now they have settled down and are more visible overall than they were before, and I would do it again.
-mark


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

I thought that I would post an update on this. OVerall it has help up pretty well. In one spot it dried and cracked, but I just went in and filled in the cracks and now it's good again. The spots that stay moist have had pretty good moss growth.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

loogielv said:


> gosh, I really wish you'd play around with what is making them stay up there. you mentioned concern for heat, so instead of finding out if you lower the temp a bit if they'll stay outta there, you're just gonna lock them out of it.
> 
> Please try to figure out what the deal is. You might learn something special about your frogs, or about the way you keep your vivs. A lesson learned...as they say.


 I think Mark already stated correctly why they are up there. The deal is that they are arboreal, they like to climb, that is where you would find them in nature, so why would one not expect to find them up there. 

Yes you should be able to close up the area around the misting tubes. The kitty litter mix should work out well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have run some decentl level flows over the peat kitty litter mix without any streaking. Ben E can probably advise you some more on the plain clay than I can. I mix it in a different manner, I now make a slurry with about 40 parts clay to sixty parts peat and stir it with a good quality mixer until rehydrates. I then pour the mix into a newspaper lined screen as the paper will allow the water to wick and drip through with the mix remainging behind. When it has set ensought to use as a putty like material I then trowl it on and let it finsish setting. If you don't let it set, it is much more easily eroded by the water.

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

For just a little more money you can get bentonite from pottery/ceramic supply companies that is a fine particle size rather than the granules. It is easier to work with and mix in to your recipe, and doesn't take as much kneading to get to your desired consistency.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

This looks very nice, it kind of reminds of this stuff called RFB that we use here. Perhaps it is even the same stuff, who knows, either way the two both look very natural.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ner-pentagon-sodium-bentonite-background.html

Thinner areas near the top definitely crack and peel if not kept constantly moist


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