# Pumilio----Man Creek or Almirante???



## dartdude (Mar 28, 2005)

Whats this??? I got it at the petstore as a "red" pumilio it looks like a fat and healthy girl but what kind??? It looks to me like a Man Creek or a Almirante but I could be wrong. 






Cheers!
Adam


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

"man creek" and "almerante" are both names used for the red pumilio imported from Panama recently (the farm raised). Both were used after people tried to ID them using morph guides from tropical-experience.nl - sure they look similar, but both aren't correct names due to lack of locality information (and physical differences between these animals and those localities that aren't translated thru pics).

The green pumilio being imported have the same problem with names, called "bruno" and "chiriqui grande" after looking at morph guides and guessing. They don't have the locality info to back these names up.


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## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

The only frog in my collection and we dont even know where the hell they are from. The more i think about this the more it upsets me. Its been getting to me for a while now, I refer to them as Man Creek, but i know this is not correct or at least probably not correct. How can we be sure, what can i do? Long term , is there a possibility we could figure it out. Why were they labeled and explained to us when they came in. Does anyone have any maps or data at all.

ps. it does look female but could be a bigger male.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That's one of the problems of the panama imports, and benifits of the peru imports - amazing the difference locality data can give! 

The name game is a pain in the ass, there is little to no standardization, and using a "morph guide" of wild pumilio and just going off pic won't land you the right name. The only "locality" info I ever heard about the reds and greens were that they were collected somewhere around the chiriqui river. The greens hold chiriqui as their most commonly referenced morph name, yet the reds don't! Oi.


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## krafty (Sep 29, 2005)

I am very familiar with the necessity for correct names/locations after spending 15 years as a killi hobbiest. And it can drive you nuts. But as I said, there is a necessity, so...
What is the difference between Almirante/Mans Creek/"Blue Jeans"? Are they the same frog from the same locations, but names were used to increase interest in a "new" morph? Are they the the same frog from different locations? Or, are they totally different species of frogs?

Rick


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

"blue jeans" is a group of localities from Costa Rica and Nicaragua. Almerante and Man Creek are Panama localites of similar coloration/pattern. There are Panama red/blues that are called Almerate or Man Creek (when first imported they were called blue jeans mistakenly, and more people think Man Creek is a more correct name). In reality, the "almerante/man creeks" in the hobby have no locality info, and are basically just red pumilio out of panama. They could be Almerante, they could be Man Creek, they could be both, they could be neither (basically, use of either name isn't really correct for the hobby animals, and IMO we need to drop use of both those locality names for a more generic name that fits the lack of information).


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Nicely put Corey! Where ya been?

As Rick already mentioned, the killifish hobby is way ahead of the dart hobby with respect to applying location information. The problem that I see with the dart frog hobby, is that there aren’t enough collectors with scientific backgrounds. That, and the fact that collection is so restricted. One other problem is probably money. When animal dealers realize that the value of a frog goes up when it has a collection location attached to its name, some may simply attach a “likely” location name. This seems to be what is going on with _pumillio_. Killifish are, for the most part, sold through knowledgeable breeders. They are too much of a “pita” for the pet trade, so location data are kept fairly accurate.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm currently in LA lol, on spring vacation, stealing a fellow frogger's computer to post while I wait for Matt Mirabello to get his shoes on so we can go to the tar pits  

I don't think its lack of "scientific" collectors (the scientists are trying to seperate themselves from the hobby, not become more involved, it screws up their ability to get permits and what not). Its really simple to write down the name of the town you're collecting the animals from. GPS is even better, but not exactly needed unless you're doing something scientific. The problem with the panama farmed exports is that they did not take note of where they collected the animals (note that they weren't doing it from the hobbyest point of view like the Mark Pepper exports, and the more scientific view of the INIBICO exports - which as our hobby gets a little more scientific they basicallly amount to the same thing, LOCALITY DATA! Weeeeeee!), and possibly just went "red pumilio is a red pumilio" and as long as they looked similar, they exported them as one thing. We are only getting three kinds - reds, greens, and the basti types. While we are pretty solid about the bastis being bastis, the others, as I mentioned before, could be anything as both reds and greens appear repeatidly in populations across Panama, and we should take this into account when we are trying to give them a hobby morph name - we should make it as generic as the animals coming in ("panama reds"? "chiriqui reds" to go with the "chiriqui green" since all we were told was they were collected off the chiriqui river - which could be a lot of places). 

Please note - the locality names were not attached to these animals to increase their value, they were exported a basic red, green, and spotted pumilio. Any mislables, especially of morphs, was done by the hobby, and based off morph guides of wild animals (which don't portray size or anything). These were mostly people not "in the know" about what was going on, and thought it would be a simple ID, and the names caught on.

We are assuming the spotted animals are bastimentos, and only bastimentos. We've got old lines of bastis in the hobby that I'm nervous of mixing with these new, unknown lines. The greens, commonly called "Chiriqui River" (incorrectly as Bruno and Chiriqui Grandes which are both specific localities and we can't back them up) and thats a nice generic name for them. But what should we call the reds? "Chiriqui River" is just appropriate for them as the greens, so I prefer to call them "Chiriqui River Reds" and the greens "Chiriqui River Greens" - as it portrays the amount of info we know about them collection wise, and seperates the morphs byy color so we don't get too confused and try and breed them together thinking they are the same morph, just multiple colors (like bastis).

"Blue Jeans" is a nice generic multi-locality name, and I think we need one for these panamas as well. We want to tag them as a locality, but its just not possible.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

The best discussion I have seen on this topic is here: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... e+chiriqui .

I think you can learn all there is to know about the collection data of this pumilio here. We may not have an exact locale, and the "Red Chirique 04" may be the best name we can come up with, but until there are actual (or purported) Man Creeks that come in, I would say that the current Man Creek name will suffice.


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