# Found an African-clawed frog in our neighborhood swimming pool today



## earthfrog

He was as happy as a clam swimming through the water, and now I know why I haven't seen hardly any toads this year. The past two years, I've had at least one toad in the dog's water bowl each day. I haven't seen any more in the water bowl this year at all. The Xenopus/chytrid carrier has arrived in my neighborhood! AGGGHHH!


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## melas

Yikes! So are you in Florida then?


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## iljjlm

melas said:


> Yikes! So are you in Florida then?


According to this she could be in any of 11 different states.
Introduced Species Summary Project - Xenopus laevis
Possibly more now, this was last updated in 2001.

Dave


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## earthfrog

I am in Central Texas! While I admit he's not an altogether unattractive frog, it's just unfair that he's livin' the high life while the toads here have to hide out in a hole under my front sidewalk just to survive! It's like they're fugitives from nature or something...


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## earthfrog

iljjlm said:


> According to this she could be in any of 11 different states.
> Introduced Species Summary Project - Xenopus laevis
> Possibly more now, this was last updated in 2001.
> 
> Dave


I guess I should have reported him, then, huh? Arizona is one of the states listed there, and it is our next-door neighbor...


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## flyangler18

Euthanize.


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## earthfrog

flyangler18 said:


> Euthanize.


How fast do you think the pool water will kill him? It's not a saltwater pool.

My mom wanted to put it in their pond before I told her the skinny on that frog. We just left it in the pool, and it can't escape except to find its way back to the skimmer basket, where it will likely die soon.


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## jubjub47

If I had to guess, I would say that somebody placed the frog in the pool. Probably a pet that got too big.


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## earthfrog

jubjub47 said:


> If I had to guess, I would say that somebody placed the frog in the pool. Probably a pet that got too big.


Ya know, I didn't think of that, but it's not an albino one, it's greenish, and it is a bit small...like the size of a Red-Eyed Tree Frog. I think they are here...


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## Dragonfly

It's really a bummer that a frog looses its innocence due to something it caught in the wild. Dang it all.


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## james67

the problem is that it caught it in africa, and it was irresponsibly imported and discarded for a VERY long time. it doesnt belong here. it needs to be destroyed, and the fact that so many animals are a great risk is a testament to that.

BTW ive seen frogs live in pools for awhile. 


james


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## earthfrog

james67 said:


> the problem is that it caught it in africa, and it was irresponsibly imported and discarded for a VERY long time. it doesnt belong here. it needs to be destroyed, and the fact that so many animals are a great risk is a testament to that.
> 
> BTW ive seen frogs live in pools for awhile.
> 
> 
> james



Alright, if I see it there again I'll destroy it---I'll put it in a tupperware and throw it away. Suffocation is not all that painful, and I'm not spending money to kill a frog---if anyone has any other ideas on household things I could use, I'm all ears----I don't have clove oil or alcohol on hand.


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## james67

freezers are often suggested for fish, when illness has impaired the animal beyond saving.
i agree that some sort of agency should be made aware of your find. i couldn't tell you which one. but if its wild and there is one there is likely a much bigger problem.

suffocation takes quite awhile, while cold temps should be much more effective. 
perhaps someone else could offer more in this area.

james


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## flyangler18

Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


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## earthfrog

I think I have some leftover Baby Orajel for this one, but if I see more, I'm just going to throw them out in a tupperware.


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## insularexotics

Susan,
If you read Ed's article quoted above, you'll note that suffocation is NOT an acceptable method of euthanasia. As the article noted, suffocation in amphibians is a long, drawn-out and painful process. As the carbon dioxide builds up, it's equivalent to inhaling fumes from muriatic adic or some other acidic chemical. As one who has accidentally inhaled muriatic fumes, I can tell you it is not a pleasant experience.

Not sure if you drink or not, but I have purchased cheap 80 proof vodka for $8 for a fifth (and it was actually for an experiemnt on a reef tank, not for consumption - I like expensive vodka for that ). Between the Orajel and Vodka, every frogger should probably keep one of these inexpensive means of euthanasia on hand for those unfortunate times when a pet might require it.

Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics


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## McBobs

If I had a fifth of vodka in my freezer, I would have a hard time NOT drinking it. Even if it is the cheap crap, I'll be fine! College days! I'm USED to drinking the cheapest available!

-Matt


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## earthfrog

insularexotics said:


> Susan,
> If you read Ed's article quoted above, you'll note that suffocation is NOT an acceptable method of euthanasia. As the article noted, suffocation in amphibians is a long, drawn-out and painful process. As the carbon dioxide builds up, it's equivalent to inhaling fumes from muriatic adic or some other acidic chemical. As one who has accidentally inhaled muriatic fumes, I can tell you it is not a pleasant experience.
> 
> Not sure if you drink or not, but I have purchased cheap 80 proof vodka for $8 for a fifth (and it was actually for an experiemnt on a reef tank, not for consumption - I like expensive vodka for that ). Between the Orajel and Vodka, every frogger should probably keep one of these inexpensive means of euthanasia on hand for those unfortunate times when a pet might require it.
> 
> Rich Terrell
> Insular Exotics


I am sorry that you inhaled muriatic acid. I'm sure it was a painful experience, and I hope you have recovered completely. If you read my posts above, I was going to administer some leftover Kids Orajel that I had in the cabinet, so don't worry that I had finally decided to allow him to suffocate. However, I have changed my mind on that now based on a couple of things.

Thanks for the advice. I do keep those things on hand for my own frogs, but I will not spend extra money on vodka and orajel for invasive frogs in my neighborhood when it is already a burden on my pocketbook to keep the few frogs that I have. In fact, I often let life that is not harming me directly alone. Destroying one frog would likely have a negligible effect on the entire population, but I will report his arrival here if I can catch him again. That will make a small difference.
I have decided based on the above advice, and anonymous advice telling me to 'rethink a few things' that if I find him, I will catch him and report him to authorities rather than kill him. I would rather spend money on taking care of my own frogs, three kids and donating to TWI and Meals on Wheels rather than kill a poor frog whose population will eventually overtake this state anyhow. 

That's my two cents, sorry it doesn't buy much...


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## flyangler18

Susan,

I respect your decision but X. laevis is an invasive chytrid vector, and needs to be treated as such. Respectfully, I fail to understand the logic of not using either Orajel or vodka which you have on hand - both of which have been demonstrated to be humane ways to euthanize amphibians - on this particular specimen. 

If we're serious about protecting native species, we have to honest with ourselves and do what it takes - and that can mean euthanizing. You can still bring the body to the relevant authorities to report.

Some comments.


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## jclee

After it is euthanized, you should probably soak it in a bleach solution. This will kill any Chytrid fungus that it may be carrying. Otherwise, there is a chance that the Chytrid may find its way into a new body of water. (Burning will also kill the fungus.) Then, you can dispose of the remains.


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## frogfreak

I have to ask the question:

Is it legal to do this?

House sparrows are legal to kill here. They are an invasive species. The public can trap and kill them.

Has this frog been put into that catagory? The public can take it into their own hands?


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## earthfrog

I have no idea if it's legal or not, and I don't want to kill what may be someone's pet---also, what if it's not carrying chytrid at all? Wouldn't it be better to save it for the authorities who can treat it and deal with it how they see fit?
Anyone know how I would go about dealing with it down this avenue?


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## Philsuma

Susan,

Here is a good place to start your quest for knowledge on this matter.

TPWD: Game Warden


I don't think there would be any legal or ethical problem keeping the frog inside your house as long as it's never released.

The possiblity of Cythrid exists, but the disease seems to have taken on a frightening histerical proportion recently, which is equally not helpful.

Test kits are available (I don't have that website handy).

Good luck and let us know any information that you uncover, if you are so inclined.


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## flyangler18

earthfrog said:


> .... I don't want to kill what may be someone's pet---


The moment that they decided to release the frog into the wild, they forfeited both their 'rights' to the animal and have proven themselves irresponsible owners. They will get no pity from me.



> also, what if it's not carrying chytrid at all?


X. laevis is the single worst chytrid vector in the amphibian world, and irresponsible collection and release over decades is likely the origin event for the worldwide spread of chytrid. These frogs carry the fungus but almost never show symptoms or succumb to it. That frog is carrying chytrid, I can almost guarantee it.


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## Otis

earthfrog said:


> Thanks for the advice. I do keep those things on hand for my own frogs, but I will not spend extra money on vodka and orajel for invasive frogs in my neighborhood when it is already a burden on my pocketbook to keep the few frogs that I have. In fact,





earthfrog said:


> I would rather spend money on taking care of my own frogs


So do you have these materials on hand, or not? you said you have them for your own animals, but then that you don't want to spend money purchasing them? If you are worried about diminishing your stock, don't be. If you have a bottle of vokda and an bottle of orajel, it doesn't take a lot to euthanize, and you will be left over with more than you can ever hope to use.



earthfrog said:


> kill a poor frog whose population will eventually overtake this state anyhow.


Tragedy of the commons....


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## smilexelectric

Blunt force Trauma


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## earthfrog

Philsuma said:


> Susan,
> 
> Here is a good place to start your quest for knowledge on this matter.
> 
> TPWD: Game Warden
> 
> 
> I don't think there would be any legal or ethical problem keeping the frog inside your house as long as it's never released.
> 
> The possiblity of Cythrid exists, but the disease seems to have taken on a frightening histerical proportion recently, which is equally not helpful.
> 
> Test kits are available (I don't have that website handy).
> 
> Good luck and let us know any information that you uncover, if you are so inclined.


Thanks. I don't plan on keeping the frog indoors, really, just in a tank in my garage if I have him for any length of time. I will contact someone about him soon---I'll go back and check the pool soon and post what I find out in time.


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## earthfrog

otis07 said:


> So do you have these materials on hand, or not? you said you have them for your own animals, but then that you don't want to spend money purchasing them? If you are worried about diminishing your stock, don't be. If you have a bottle of vokda and an bottle of orajel, it doesn't take a lot to euthanize, and you will be left over with more than you can ever hope to use.
> 
> 
> 
> Tragedy of the commons....


I guess so. I just hate spending money on killing something! I'll just get some Orajel, then, if authorities don't want to deal with him, and give him a painless goodbye.


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## earthfrog

smilexelectric said:


> Blunt force Trauma


Eww! I think I would get my pool pass revoked if I made a mess there...


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## james67

many places require permits to house these frogs, and from what info i have found it sounds pretty important that you contact the fish and wildlife or other agency. texas is not really listed as a state with xenopus, although the material i found was a few years old, however it seemed like reports of a single frog were some that ended up being very important, for instance a single xenopus was found in Hillsborough FL (where im from) and it seemed like that was something worth mentioning in a risk assessment. 

james


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## Dragonfly

I understand the concerns about killing. I want to know if rubbing alcohol can be used instead of vodka. I hope never to need to use either, but would sure prefer having the rubbing alcohol alternative since we keep that anyway.


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## jclee

I didn't realize that the animal appeared healthy (and yes, I think it can still be a potential carrier and appear healthy). If I were you, and I could not keep it, I would (a) give it to a petstore if it is legal in your state or (b) if it is an illegal animal, contact the fish and wildlife dept. of your state, tell them that you have one, wild caught, and would like to relenquish it to them. They would probably euthanize it, or else refer you to the appropriate dept. that handles such things.


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## earthfrog

jclee said:


> I didn't realize that the animal appeared healthy (and yes, I think it can still be a potential carrier and appear healthy). If I were you, and I could not keep it, I would (a) give it to a petstore if it is legal in your state or (b) if it is an illegal animal, contact the fish and wildlife dept. of your state, tell them that you have one, wild caught, and would like to relenquish it to them. They would probably euthanize it, or else refer you to the appropriate dept. that handles such things.


One upside to this whole african clawed frog thing, I just realized, is that they could influence pet store owners who are unknowledgeable about dart frogs to consider not carrying them (or any frog, for that matter...)
They are very popular in the aquarium trade. Since they are largely immune to the chytrid fungus, they would still carry it and spread it to other animals. I know of a pet store that had some amphibians, and the guy stopped carrying them because he didn't know why they were dying. The only frog he now carries is the african-clawed frog---I know he would have spread chytrid from the aquariums to the frog tank b/c I was in the shop to view his husbandry techniques. At least for his shop, he won't be accepting any imported darts...downside is, he won't be selling other amphibians, either...

So, I don't think I really want to encourage him to keep the frogs, but the whole situation is kind of a silent judgement on undiscerning pet store owners---if they don't know enough about frog health to keep chytrid away, maybe they don't need to stock any amphibians. 

I will get back to you all if/when I can track that guy down again---have been at home w/a sinus headache, but we're going back out tomorrow---we'll see...


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