# Exporting Australian Animals Through Indonesia/New Guniea



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Or perhaps like with Australian animals being imported out of New Guinea the border is just something casually overlooked by exporters


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

Umm....I've never seen this happen. You normally see them come from Europe. What species of Aussies are coming out of New Guinea?



mantisdragon91 said:


> Or perhaps like with Australian animals being imported out of New Guinea the border is just something casually overlooked by exporters


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> Umm....I've never seen this happen. You normally see them come from Europe. What species of Aussies are coming out of New Guinea?


Many of the Blue Tongue skinks, River Dragons and Bent Toe geckos that have popped up in the hobby in the last couple of years are not native to Indonesia but are found in Queensland instead. This being a short boat ride from some of the Indonesian islands lead to the assumption that they have been smuggled out of Australia. 

The same happened in the late eighties with the many varities of dwarf monitors, skinks and knob tails that popped up on the market virtually out of nowhere. Europe is merely the point where WC animals had been laundered to provide them with the status of CB. I have seen first hand supposed CB animals with ticks, mites, scale discoloration and old scars all of which are typical of what you would see in WCs.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

I can tell you for sure these have all come from New Guinea. As for the bent toes, a few have been mislabled as Aussie species, but they have been New Guinea animals (many undescribed). Aussie and New Guinea (and close by islands) have very similar animals, including Blue Tongues. What species of River Dragons have come in? Quite a few undescribed and familar New Guinean species have been imported to date, but no Aussie species, at least through Indo channels. Maybe you're aware of something I'm not. However, I am familiar with all the exporters and very familiar with what comes into this country, from whom, and when.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Many of the Blue Tongue skinks, River Dragons and Bent Toe geckos that have popped up in the hobby in the last couple of years are not native to Indonesia but are found in Queensland instead. This being a short boat ride from some of the Indonesian islands lead to the assumption that they have been smuggled out of Australia.
> 
> The same happened in the late eighties with the many varities of dwarf monitors, skinks and knob tails that popped up on the market virtually out of nowhere. Europe is merely the point where WC animals had been laundered to provide them with the status of CB. I have seen first hand supposed CB animals with ticks, mites, scale discoloration and old scars all of which are typical of what you would see in WCs.


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



mantisdragon91 said:


> Many of the Blue Tongue skinks, River Dragons and Bent Toe geckos that have popped up in the hobby in the last couple of years are not native to Indonesia but are found in Queensland instead. This being a short boat ride from some of the Indonesian islands lead to the assumption that they have been smuggled out of Australia.
> 
> The same happened in the late eighties with the many varities of dwarf monitors, skinks and knob tails that popped up on the market virtually out of nowhere. Europe is merely the point where WC animals had been laundered to provide them with the status of CB. I have seen first hand supposed CB animals with ticks, mites, scale discoloration and old scars all of which are typical of what you would see in WCs.


None of those species warrant the prices needed to even contemplate smuggling them....They are all readily available from many different localities in Indo......Your not going to take a Blue Tongue from Australia, launder it through Indo, then expect to anyone to pay anymore than $55 for it.......Not lucretive at all.......

However, there is a rife blackmarket trade in Australian animals, and there always will be......That's lucretive......You want to make something popular? Ban it.......

Now back to South America......I'd be willing to bet there are "Flavescens" type animals in Surinam.....Just because you don't see them around doesn't mean all that much.......After all, why don't we see Tinctorious come out of Guyana? They're there.....Nobody doesn't want to spend the time and money to collect them though......


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> I can tell you for sure these have all come from New Guinea. As for the bent toes, a few have been mislabled as Aussie species, but they have been New Guinea animals (many undescribed). Aussie and New Guinea (and close by islands) have very similar animals, including Blue Tongues. What species of River Dragons have come in? Quite a few undescribed and familar New Guinean species have been imported to date, but no Aussie species, at least through Indo channels. Maybe you're aware of something I'm not. However, I am familiar with all the exporters and very familiar with what comes into this country, from whom, and when.


So you are telling me that every animal that has come in the last two years was properly labeled and accurately imported? Stretches belief don't you think? And keep in mind that I know the same exporters and importers that you do. Also keep in mind that New Guinea is actually separated between two nations only one of which allows export, curiously species are becoming available from both parts of New Guinea.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



EricIvins said:


> None of those species warrant the prices needed to even contemplate smuggling them....They are all readily available from many different localities in Indo......Your not going to take a Blue Tongue from Australia, launder it through Indo, then expect to anyone to pay anymore than $55 for it.......Not lucretive at all.......
> 
> However, there is a rife blackmarket trade in Australian animals, and there always will be......That's lucretive......You want to make something popular? Ban it.......
> 
> Now back to South America......I'd be willing to bet there are "Flavescens" type animals in Surinam.....Just because you don't see them around doesn't mean all that much.......After all, why don't we see Tinctorious come out of Guyana? They're there.....Nobody doesn't want to spend the time and money to collect them though......


Well its always good to hear a "Jobbers" perspective on things. So there is no money in some of the tree monitors currently being offered? Is this really what you would care to have us believe?


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



mantisdragon91 said:


> Well its always good to hear a "Jobbers" perspective on things. So there is no money in some of the tree monitors currently being offered? Is this really what you would care to have us believe?


No not really......

There was when they first came in, but not really now.......How much money do you think as a "jobber", I can make on a Prasinus complex Monitor? 

On another note - How do you know what I do or not do? Do you know me personally? Do you know what I'm breeding and/or keeping?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



EricIvins said:


> No not really......
> 
> There was when they first came in, but not really now.......How much money do you think as a "jobber", I can make on a Prasinus complex Monitor?
> 
> On another note - How do you know what I do or not do? Do you know me personally? Do you know what I'm breeding and/or keeping?


Well for starters I know you aquire most of your stock from Strictly Reptiles. I know you work with breeding a handful of geckos and other species, but almost everything you sell on Kingsnake is WC. As a "Jobber" you probably aren't making much on the tree monitor you mentioned, on the other hand the original importer can have a mark up of over 300% since the going rate for most of these "gray market monitors" is about $75-125 in Indonesia versus the $300-$500 plus that they retail for.

Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in any of my facts.


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



mantisdragon91 said:


> Well for starters I know you aquire most of your stock from Strictly Reptiles. I know you work with breeding a handful of geckos and other species, but almost everything you sell on Kingsnake is WC. As a "Jobber" you probably aren't making much on the tree monitor you mentioned, on the other hand the original importer can have a mark up of over 300% since the going rate for most of these "gray market monitors" is about $75-125 in Indonesia versus the $300-$500 plus that they retail for.
> 
> Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken in any of my facts.


I do? Really? I work with many different Hobbiests, Breeders, and Importers.......Strictly gets stuff from me, and I get stuff from Strictly....No different than the myriad of other Business relationships I have with people....I produce my own animals, but Geckos aren't any part of that......Maybe in the future, but not now.......You really know me so well don't you? If you did, you'd know that Turtles/Tortoises are my first passion when it comes to Reptiles....... 


But I digress......The going rate for the higher end Prasinus complex Monitors are around $125 in Indo, plus Freight at $22-$30 a kilo ( Freight doesn't go down only up..... ), Permit Fees, Box Fees, and Fish and Wildlife once they get here ( Which has tripled in two years, and goes up more every year.....)......

So I'd have close to $200 into each Monitor that I brought in.......If you knew the Wholesalers that much, you'd know what the going Wholesale price for them is.......Seeing that Prasinus retails for around $350, you can do the math and figure out that bother margins are paper thin, and loosing one animal can put both parties in the red.......You could make an argument for Macraei, but the scenario is the same, since they cost more out of Indo......

That scenario holds true for most things you see retailed.....Even on the retail end, profit margins aren't huge at all unless you produced it yourself, and it's a new product.......Then you have to factor in the fact that some things cost a whole lot more to produce than others.......

Simple? No......

Complicated? Yes......


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



EricIvins said:


> I do? Really? I work with many different Hobbiests, Breeders, and Importers.......Strictly gets stuff from me, and I get stuff from Strictly....No different than the myriad of other Business relationships I have with people....I produce my own animals, but Geckos aren't any part of that......Maybe in the future, but not now.......You really know me so well don't you? If you did, you'd know that Turtles/Tortoises are my first passion when it comes to Reptiles.......
> 
> 
> But I digress......The going rate for the higher end Prasinus complex Monitors are around $125 in Indo, plus Freight at $22-$30 a kilo ( Freight doesn't go down only up..... ), Permit Fees, Box Fees, and Fish and Wildlife once they get here ( Which has tripled in two years, and goes up more every year.....)......
> ...


So you are telling me you are importing your own animals out of Indonesia?


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



mantisdragon91 said:


> So you are telling me you are importing your own animals out of Indonesia?


I can if I wanted to......I've got the contacts to do it......I may bring in an Indo shipment later in the year, but I'm not interested in Blue Tongue Skinks or Water Monitors at the moment......


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



EricIvins said:


> I can if I wanted to......I've got the contacts to do it......I may bring in an Indo shipment later in the year, but I'm not interested in Blue Tongue Skinks or Water Monitors at the moment......


So where have you imported from in the last year?


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

I think you are missing the point. Aussie animals are not being smuggled into the US through Indo. You were mistaken on the blue tongues, bent toes, etc. It's no big deal, I could see your confusion.



mantisdragon91 said:


> So where have you imported from in the last year?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> I think you are missing the point. Aussie animals are not being smuggled into the US through Indo. You were mistaken on the blue tongues, bent toes, etc. It's no big deal, I could see your confusion.


Eric,

And I think you have missed my point. Unless you have physicly been to those places like I have and have actually done business with some of the exporters it is impossible to realize how close some of those islands are to the Australian mainland not to mention how much actual border crossing happens between Irin Jaya(which is part of Indonesia and allows exportation) and Papua New Guinea(which is an independent nation and does not). Just because the sums of money in question don't seem like much to Americans doesn't mean that they aren't a year's worth or potentially more annual income to the natives.

The reason I asked you about your actual experience is to establish how much you actually knew about the facts on the ground. There are Papua New Guinea and Queensland animals coming into the country as we speak. To claim otherwise is either foolish or criminal and I will leave it up to you to decide which category you fall into.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

I don't doubt Irian Jaya and New Guinea are coming across each others borders, however, I do know collection permits are given from both countries of the island as I've had a friend obtain permits to collect fish from both countries, and they offered for him to collect reptiles as well. 

Back to Aussie animals, because that is what is in doubt.
What species of bent toes? What species of tree dragons. As for the blue tongues, still, I've only seen non Aussie varieties come in, but since Aussie populations are in the hobby as well, it would be hard to separate them. So, let's leave those ones out. 

Again, if this is happening, I'd like to know.



mantisdragon91 said:


> Eric,
> 
> And I think you have missed my point. Unless you have physicly been to those places like I have and have actually done business with some of the exporters it is impossible to realize how close some of those islands are to the Australian mainland not to mention how much actual border crossing happens between Irin Jaya(which is part of Indonesia and allows exportation) and Papua New Guinea(which is an independent nation and does not). Just because the sums of money in question don't seem like much to Americans doesn't mean that they aren't a year's worth or potentially more annual income to the natives.
> 
> The reason I asked you about your actual experience is to establish how much you actually knew about the facts on the ground. There are Papua New Guinea and Queensland animals coming into the country as we speak. To claim otherwise is either foolish or criminal and I will leave it up to you to decide which category you fall into.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> I don't doubt Irian Jaya and New Guinea are coming across each others borders, however, I do know collection permits are given from both countries of the island as I've had a friend obtain permits to collect fish from both countries, and they offered for him to collect reptiles as well.
> 
> Back to Aussie animals, because that is what is in doubt.
> What species of bent toes? What species of tree dragons. As for the blue tongues, still, I've only seen non Aussie varieties come in, but since Aussie populations are in the hobby as well, it would be hard to separate them. So, let's leave those ones out.
> ...


The species that sticks most in my head is Cyrtodactylus Louisiadensis which I have seen offered on a couple of occasions in the past year. I have also seen a number of Hypsilurus species offered and a number of Tiliqua species which do not match anything coming out of NG.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



mantisdragon91 said:


> Just because the sums of money in question don't seem like much to Americans doesn't mean that they aren't a year's worth or potentially more annual income to the natives.


If that's true they'll probably catch and export anything - imagine how many people here would catch and sell a couple of squirrels for 50K?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



ChrisK said:


> If that's true they'll probably catch and export anything - imagine how many perople here would catch and sell a couple of squirrels for 50K?


Exactly!!! Which is why it is either foolish or being an apologist for the Importers to claim that it never happens.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

C. lousisadensis has not come in, but a similar species being offered. Talk to the hardcore gecko fans out there and they can confirm. As for the Hypsilurus, I've had roughly half of the ones that have come in pass through my hands (in the last 5 years), all New Guinean species, primarily Hypsilurus nigrigularis
(but imported as H. godeffroyi), both species are not found in Aussie land. As for Tiliqua, nothing but WC animals of Non Aussie origin. You do see CBB babies of Aussies for sale, but they never are imported, but bought from breeders. Werid. 



mantisdragon91 said:


> The species that sticks most in my head is Cyrtodactylus Louisiadensis which I have seen offered on a couple of occasions in the past year. I have also seen a number of Hypsilurus species offered and a number of Tiliqua species which do not match anything coming out of NG.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

Just what squirrels are being sold from Indo for 50k? It's hard enough to get export permits for any squirrels as it is, and they are much cheaper. Provost are likely the most expensive squirrels coming out of there. They retail for $500-1000 each. 



ChrisK said:


> If that's true they'll probably catch and export anything - imagine how many people here would catch and sell a couple of squirrels for 50K?


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> Just what squirrels are being sold from Indo for 50k? It's hard enough to get export permits for any squirrels as it is, and they are much cheaper. Provost are likely the most expensive squirrels coming out of there. They retail for $500-1000 each.


I think Chris was making a point that $100 to an indonesian local is on par to $50,000 (ie 1 year's salary) for us. Squirrels weren't really part of it.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> C. lousisadensis has not come in, but a similar species being offered. Talk to the hardcore gecko fans out there and they can confirm. As for the Hypsilurus, I've had roughly half of the ones that have come in pass through my hands (in the last 5 years), all New Guinean species, primarily Hypsilurus nigrigularis
> (but imported as H. godeffroyi), both species are not found in Aussie land. As for Tiliqua, nothing but WC animals of Non Aussie origin. You do see CBB babies of Aussies for sale, but they never are imported, but bought from breeders. Werid.


I am a hard core Gecko fan and I can certainly tell the diffrence between a Louisiadensis and an Irijayensis when I see it. While I am not as well versed in Agamas as I am in geckos I can also tell the diffrence between a Nigrigularis and a Godeffroyi. And I am still seing Blue Tongues with obvious signs of being WC offered as CB. Perhaps you would care to give me a little better overview of you background and experience since you seem to have a somewhat decent knowledge of some of the facts on the ground.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

For fun.
http://www.mapress.com/zootaxa/2008/f/z01883p027f.pdf


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

No need to give you my background, we'll see how this plays out. If Aussie smuggling is happening via this route...I would like to know, which is why I responded. I don't mind if you think it is, but I want to hear something that points that direction, and I haven't yet. I have my reasons. You are more then welcome not to respond.



mantisdragon91 said:


> I am a hard core Gecko fan and I can certainly tell the diffrence between a Louisiadensis and an Irijayensis when I see it. While I am not as well versed in Agamas as I am in geckos I can also tell the diffrence between a Nigrigularis and a Godeffroyi. And I am still seing Blue Tongues with obvious signs of being WC offered as CB. Perhaps you would care to give me a little better overview of you background and experience since you seem to have a somewhat decent knowledge of some of the facts on the ground.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



JeremyHuff said:


> I think Chris was making a point that $100 to an indonesian local is on par to $50,000 (ie 1 year's salary) for us. Squirrels weren't really part of it.


Yeah -


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> No need to give you my background, we'll see how this plays out. If Aussie smuggling is happening via this route...I would like to know, which is why I responded. I don't mind if you think it is, but I want to hear something that points that direction, and I haven't yet. I have my reasons. You are more then welcome not to respond.


Kind of sounds like you may be Fish and Wildlife agent trying to aquire information. If that is the case all I can say is do your job and visit some of the importers when the next batch of Indonesian imports hit Florida and before they are cherry picked by the jobbers and you may be surprised by what you see. Just because it doesn't pop up on Kingsnake doesn't mean it isn't in the country


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

What the f is that supposed to mean? I can give you all on this board my assurance that no animals are harmed by the cruel practice of wild-stealing, but you don't need to know who I am?

You just lost any and all credibility on this board (as far as I'm concerned).

Richard.



Blue_Pumilio said:


> No need to give you my background, we'll see how this plays out. If Aussie smuggling is happening via this route...I would like to know, which is why I responded. I don't mind if you think it is, but I want to hear something that points that direction, and I haven't yet. I have my reasons. You are more then welcome not to respond.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Woodsman said:


> What the f is that supposed to mean? I can give you all on this board my assurance that no animals are harmed by the cruel practice of wild-stealing, but you don't need to know who I am?
> 
> You just lost any and all credibility on this board (as far as I'm concerned).
> 
> Richard.


lol, what are you even going on about?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

People who require anonymity to be on an open forum have NO CREDIBILITY!

So, I'll ask you again to identify yourself, "Brotherly Monkey". If you won't, I suggest to other members that they also think about what credibility to give people who will not self-identify on a public forum.

Richard.



Brotherly Monkey said:


> lol, what are you even going on about?


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

Nope, I'm not part of any government organization, just a hobbyist with regard to select species (which is why I post on this board) and a supplier/importer/exporter for others. I have an interest in international wildlife law and smuggling, more of a general curiosity. 



mantisdragon91 said:


> Kind of sounds like you may be Fish and Wildlife agent trying to aquire information. If that is the case all I can say is do your job and visit some of the importers when the next batch of Indonesian imports hit Florida and before they are cherry picked by the jobbers and you may be surprised by what you see. Just because it doesn't pop up on Kingsnake doesn't mean it isn't in the country


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> lol, what are you even going on about?


Yeah that one threw me for a loop too Richard - I'm definitely not a fan of someone saying "give me all the info I ask for and don't worry about who I am, I have my reasons which you don't need to know" (??)

but I didn't see him assure anyone that no animals were harmed.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Chris,

The earlier posts suggest that this person is an exporter and is telling us nothing untoward is going on in Indonesia and Australia. Maybe I have had this argument one too many times and moved into "round two" too early, but I don't like being told by anonymus people that no smuggling is going on in the world. It insults all of our intelligences.

I'll try to remain constructive, but I really hate folks who "hide-out" on-line.

Richard.



ChrisK said:


> Yeah that one threw me for a loop too Richard - I'm definitely not a fan of someone saying "give me all the info I ask for and don't worry about who I am, I have my reasons which you don't need to know" (??)
> 
> but I didn't see him assure anyone that no animals were harmed.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

Your parents didn't give you a name?



Blue_Pumilio said:


> Nope, I'm not part of any government organization, just a hobbyist with regard to select species (which is why I post on this board) and a supplier/importer/exporter for others. I have an interest in international wildlife law and smuggling, more of a general curiosity.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

Umm, ok. I'm not here to gain creditability, more so to acquire and share information with those interested. Perhaps you misunderstood my post and took it in dramatic fashion. As for "wild stealing", if you are engaged in any wildlife trade (you keep frogs, correct?), I'm sure "wild stealing" can be applied to that phrase. Legal or not, it doesn't make it right or wrong, that issue is far more complicated with ethical boundaries being composed and broken on both sides. 




Woodsman said:


> What the f is that supposed to mean? I can give you all on this board my assurance that no animals are harmed by the cruel practice of wild-stealing, but you don't need to know who I am?
> 
> You just lost any and all credibility on this board (as far as I'm concerned).
> 
> Richard.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Woodsman said:


> People who require anonymity to be on an open forum have NO CREDIBILITY!
> 
> So, I'll ask you again to identify yourself, "Brotherly Monkey". If you won't, I suggest to other members that they also think about what credibility to give people who will not self-identify on a public forum.
> 
> Richard.



on what basis do you feel the need to know who I am?


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

What does my name matter in this? I could give you a fake name for all you know. It is the Internet! I think the issue of my identity is a bit off track and more importantly, useless. Dwell on it if you want, I'm here as my screen name to talk about I information not relevant to my name. I'm sure this has already become a bigger issue then anyone cares.



Woodsman said:


> Your parents didn't give you a name?


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Plenty of smuggling is going on, but you guys have your eyes on the wrong outlet. If something should be done, it's to make sure you're going after what's really going on, as opposed to what isn't. I wish USFWS paid a bit more attention. If Indo smuggles anything into the USA, it's captive bred chameleons from legally disputed adults. Well, and not to mention a few "farmed" species native to Indo.



Woodsman said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> The earlier posts suggest that this person is an exporter and is telling us nothing untoward is going on in Indonesia and Australia. Maybe I have had this argument one too many times and moved into "round two" too early, but I don't like being told by anonymus people that no smuggling is going on in the world. It insults all of our intelligences.
> 
> ...


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

Believe me, there is nothing more I need to know about you.

Good luck living in your anonymus world.

Richard.



Brotherly Monkey said:


> on what basis do you feel the need to know who I am?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Plenty of smuggling is going on, but you guys have your eyes on the wrong outlet. If something should be done, it's to make sure you're going after what's really going on, as opposed to what isn't. I wish USFWS paid a bit more attention. If Indo smuggles anything into the USA, *it's captive bred chameleons from legally disputed adults*. Well, and not to mention a few "farmed" species native to Indo.


You mean like the Parson's that are now occassionally popping up But all kidding aside there is Australian stuff coming in occassionally in NG shipments. Just like there are quite a number of species coming from Madagascar under false ID. Those are the only two nations I know enough about to be knowledgable on but I'm sure it happens in other places as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*



Blue_Pumilio said:


> What does my name matter in this? I could give you a fake name for all you know. It is the Internet! I think the issue of my identity is a bit off track and more importantly, useless. Dwell on it if you want, I'm here as my screen name to talk about I information not relevant to my name.


 
And this is one of the reasons some of us get suspicious.. it wasn't that long ago, there was a person logging in here with several different accounts and making claims about being part of a large conservation organization as well as all kinds of info..... 

Transparency isn't just for the goverment. 

I'm not going to respond any further to this part of the thread as I don't want to see it hijacked any further. 

Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Those, globifers, and a few others. However, a few other countries have their hand in it as well. As for Madagascar, they do export under different names, but not to a gross extent. Most of the valuable stuff is smuggled through a few Middle Eastern countries and through Thailand.



mantisdragon91 said:


> You mean like the Parson's that are now occassionally popping up But all kidding aside there is Australian stuff coming in occassionally in NG shipments. Just like there are quite a number of species coming from Madagascar under false ID. Those are the only two nations I know enough about to be knowledgable on but I'm sure it happens in other places as well.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

*Re: Atelopus flavescens! (A spin off of the classified)*

If someone needs to know my name, it's not hard to ask privately, I might respond. I don't feel like a thread on a forum forever advertising my name. That could impact my schooling, job, potential dates, etc. People take in one thread to make a decision about you and not the entire picture, no thanks. I like to engage in discussion to exchange info, nothing more. If I wanted something that I wouldn't mind a potential university reading, I'd publish it under my name.

What is so suspicious? I gave my opinion mixed with some facts. At least I'm not claiming to be someone I'm not. 



Ed said:


> And this is one of the reasons some of us get suspicious.. it wasn't that long ago, there was a person logging in here with several different accounts and making claims about being part of a large conservation organization as well as all kinds of info.....
> 
> Transparency isn't just for the goverment.
> 
> ...


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Those, globifers, and a few others. However, a few other countries have their hand in it as well. As for Madagascar, they do export under different names, but not to a gross extent. Most of the valuable stuff is smuggled through a few Middle Eastern countries and through Thailand.


Ukraine seems to be hot bed for animal laundering as well. Unless of course they are breeding all those Uroplatus that come in to the EU as cb from there


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