# Need help with Spindely leg syndrome



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)

My first batch of blue az froglets have SLS. I have a few more batches coming up and hope I can correct the issues. I did some research and have added Josh's Frogs RO RX to the RO/tap water I have been using. 
I live in the desert and have a soft water system (not a true RO i think). My first question is, should I move to distilled water or spring water treated with RO RX rather that the poor water from the tap?
I have just started treating with the RO Rx this week. My remaining tads do not yet have legs and I hope I can make a better environment for them.
I have a beeding trio and supplement them with rapashy/dendro and repcal suppliments (rotate as recommended) I replace every 6 months.
My first cluch of 6 was a disaster... two appeared to have drowned but one actually survived. I reduced the water and put then at an angle as recommended but only one crawled out of the water on its own. 2 of them were moved to land after 7 days post front legs they did not crawl up the cup.
Since then I have obvious SLS and a couple look bloated.
I'm afraid I will lose the whole clutch. There are 4 left but they do not move around as expected. There is plenty of springtails and have feed melo fruitfulness nut the do not appear to be able to hunt.
I am hoping they turn around and hope I don't need to euthanize. 
Second question: is there a water testing kit that I could use to test the water proir to using for tadpoles?
Any help and recommendations are welcome.


----------



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)




----------



## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

What are you feeding the adults? How often, what supplement? You say you're mixing Repashy / dendro / repcal but that doesn't give us a ton of answers.

Those froglets aren't going to make it and should be humanely euthanized, IMO.

By 3-4 days out of the water the froglets should be moving around quite normally, IME with other dart frog froglets.


----------



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)

Dust with dendrocare mostly, i also rotate repashy calcium plus, superpig, Vitamin A Plus one day a week.
Replace vitamins every six months and keep repashy in fridge.
I will admit that my vitamins may have been old when the first clutch appeared. I have a breeding trio of blue AZs.
I think I am also overfeeding the tads..tags... was feeding every other day. 1-2 tadpole bites dusted with Sera micron and/or a bit of spirulina powder.
I will change the routine to every three days.
Is there a water test kit available so I can see where my water is and what needs correction?


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There was an Amphibicast episode recently about Kathleen Higgins' SLS research. Definitely worth a listen. 

Water that has been processed by a water softener is chemically bizarre, and probably the single worst choice for tad rearing -- calcium (and magnesium) gets removed and replaced by sodium (phosphorus remains unchanged). Use RO water that has been reconstituted. I notice the product you mention doesn't seem to list ingredients, so hard to say if it is the right choice.

Old vitamins, those not stored in the fridge, and anything made by RepCal should be tossed. All but the latter should be replaced. More on supplements here.

A person could test calcium and phosphorus levels in the tad water, but using RO and a decent reconstitution procedure would make that unnecessary. A photometer (Hanna) would be necessary to test PO4 levels that low, and I'm not personally sure how to test calcium levels accurately in that range -- a better aquarium kit like Salifert has a resolution of 10ppm, which might be sufficient.


----------



## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm leaning towards your water being a major contributing factor and a sub par supplement routine for the parent frogs being second. Repashy Ca+ every feeding is a good standard routine.


----------



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)

I am having trouble finding RO water to purchase. Would distilled water work?


----------



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)

I read that orajel is the most humane way to euthanize. If I need to let them go I want it to do it humanly. It is a very sad ending for the first batch. Hopefully changing the water to distilled and remineralizing will help batches that are currently on the way. Thank you all for the support and suggestions. Hopefully I can have some successful froglets soon.


----------



## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

This thread discuses humane euthanasia procedures > Any insight please and has some useful links attached.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Petpoor said:


> I am having trouble finding RO water to purchase. Would distilled water work?


Would it work? Yes, most likely. 

There's concern that the process of distillation might leave trace metals in the water, though that's speculative and I personally haven't found any data to support it. I do know that RO water sold at grocery stores and many aquarium shops is a lot less pure than I'm personally comfortable with, so there's not a magic bullet answer here.

A person could do the math on their water consumption and see what the payoff period is for a small RO system (they're cheap, ~$150). Failure to maintain home RO systems is pretty common, though, so that's not a foolproof solution either. 

If distilled is readily available to you, that would be the best immediate plan. Once you get your tad procedures under control, then fine tuning your water supply plans might be worthwhile.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

In my opinion, its nutrients supplied / stored in the egg laying parents, and not water, that's the cause.


----------



## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Philsuma said:


> In my opinion, its nutrients supplied / stored in the egg laying parents, and not water, that's the cause.


Well, it did go from a fairly common issue, especially with thumb nails, to a pretty rare one. The water we most use hasn't really changed but, the supplements sure have.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There is almost certainly more than one factor that could lead to SLS. Recent empirical research has found is that tad water Ca/P ratio is a factor. In this particular situation, there is a clear smoking gun since water is being used that has had its calcium removed.

*The relationship between spindly leg syndrome incidence and water composition, overfeeding, and diet in newly metamorphosed harlequin frogs (Atelopus spp.)*

*Spindly leg syndrome in Atelopus varius is linked to environmental calcium and phosphate availability*

*Observations on spindly leg syndrome in a captive population of Andinobates geminisae*


----------



## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

Maybe your outside hose spigot is not part of the softened water system.


----------



## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Water softeners are the worst type of water to use for animals. If you can bypass it and access your normal untreated tap water, it should be perfectly fine to use as long as it is dechlorinated.

I would say I am about 90% certain this is your issue - complete lack of calcium in the water can lead to SLS pretty easily, as you can see.

Likely these froglets are not meant to be and should be euthanized. Easiest way is to wrap them in paper towel and completely crush them with a heavy object(s). No pain and no messing around with stuff like Orajel. It might sound grim, but it works 100% of the time and is the easiest way to ensure there is little to no pain involved.


----------



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)

jeffkruse said:


> Maybe your outside hose spigot is not part of the softened water system.


Thanks. Did not think of that.. the outside spigot is not part of the softener... I live in the desert tho so I'm not sure how the water quality is here.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Petpoor said:


> Thanks. Did not think of that.. the outside spigot is not part of the softener... I live in the desert tho so I'm not sure how the water quality is here.


Also live in a desert. Your water source is likely required to release a yearly water quality report. I’m moving and switching from city water to a water cooperative and both have reports - it doesn’t show everything but does give a good general idea of possible contaminants, copper, nitrates, etc.


----------



## Petpoor (7 mo ago)

So for city water, what would you recommend for declorinator? 
Also would you still recommend using the seachem equilibrium? Or would that be overdoing it?


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

you could just let it out overnight open to the air to de-gas.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Philsuma said:


> you could just let it out overnight open to the air to de-gas.


That doesn't work for chloramine, which many cities use.


----------

