# Humidity question



## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

Hey guys! 

I have a quick question about the constant battle with humidity. This is my first vivarium and I have one of those crappy analog gauges that came with the "kit", I know they are widely inaccurate but it seems that from my reading even the digital ones are best used to spot check humidity and the frogs behavior is more of an indicator of how happy they are anyways. Either way I figured if I learned what the right humidity range looked like that would be better than having to check a meter every so often. 

Finally the question! I misted at 7PM last night and checked it at 11pm, there were still water droplets on the glass on all the sides. Then I checked this morning around 7AM and there was one section that still had water droplets, maybe a 3"X 3" section on the one side. From your experience does this seem humid enough? My humidity gauge sits between 60-70 never going higher than 70, but I think that it is more humid than that in there.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

It is likely way more humid than what your gauge is reading if you are constantly seeing condensation on the glass. Those analog gauges are not very accurate and can actually get stuck at one reading. Humidity should fluctuate between 60% and 100%. Things should be allowed to dry out a bit. I stopped trying to measure humidity long ago. Now I just observe the tanks and mist as necessary. You will soon begin to tell when you are over-misting, which is easier to do in my opinion than under-misting. If I see a lot of condensation on the glass, usually there is no need to mist.


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## JimM (Oct 2, 2018)

I run fans 24/7 pointed at the front glass.
This helps remove condensation from the front viewing panes, and allows me to mist very heavily twice a day (with 2 shorter mistings in between) without worrying about anything getting moldy or stagnant.

So the plants get all the water they need, humidity is easy to keep where I need it without compromising viewing.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

Humidity sensors should not be kept in your viv. You should drop the sensor in only when you want to take a reading and then remove it. If it sits in your viv all the time the readings will be useless - this goes for analog and digital versions of any standard humidity sensor.

I try to keep my humidity between 50% and 80-90% with a target of 65-70% a majority of the time (this is for frogs and cloud-forest epiphytes).


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## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

I wouldnt agree that condensation on the glass give you any clue about the humidity inside the terrarium.

Condensation on the glass just tell you that you have reach the point where condensation is formed.

There are 3 important parameters that creates condensation. Temperature inside/ outside the terrarium and the humidity inside the terrarium. If you are running big ventilation the humidity outside the terrarium is a factor as well.

Here in Scandinavia, we have dry and cold winters/hot humid summers. On our forums we get a lot of question about condensation wintertime, but almost none in the summers. When people get condensations in the winter, it is quite often they have problems with low humidity at the same time. After all the condensation pulls moisture out of the air and onto the glass.

The most common reason for condensation here is that the room temperature dropped a few degrees when the cold weather have hit us.

Internal fans do help in some extent, basically they make the condensation evaporate again back into the air and clear the glass.

BR
Magnus


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> Humidity sensors should not be kept in your viv. You should drop the sensor in only when you want to take a reading and then remove it. If it sits in your viv all the time the readings will be useless - this goes for analog and digital versions of any standard humidity sensor.
> 
> I try to keep my humidity between 50% and 80-90% with a target of 65-70% a majority of the time (this is for frogs and cloud-forest epiphytes).


This is something I haven't run across before, but it makes good sense. Do you know if that's true of sensors that use a probe? I mean does a probe count the same way where you wouldn't leave it in there all the time?

Thanks,

Mark


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Encyclia,

The underlying issue that creates problems for humidity sensors is condensation in/on the sensor. Once your humidity surpasses 100% and condensation starts, the probe will build up moisture that will disrupt accurate readings in the short term. This is a bigger problem, ironically, with probes that have guards or covers meant to prevent them from getting wet. The cover acts to retain excess moisture once it has gotten wet on the inside.

In the longer term, a frequently moist probe near your lights will start to develop a biofilm (algae etc) and/or corrosion that will further harm accurate readings.

There may be high-end humidity sensors that avoid this problem but I think the issue with condensation is pretty fundamental/unavoidable. I drop-in my sensor for 5 minutes when I want to take a reading and remove it promptly thereafter. 

Of course, I haven't actually taken a humidity reading in quite some time. Now that my viv is established, it's easy to tell humidity by the appearance of the bryophytes and by watching frog behavior.


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

Alright well there is a reptiile show this Saturday near me and I planned on picking up a froggo there. I have tons of Springtails, but havn't seen any Isopods running around yet (I just assume that they are hiding). I may get a digital gauge there as well depending how overpriced they are, but it doesn't sound like its too hard to tell when you need to mist based on the frogs behaviour and the environment. 

For a point of reference my house is kept at 80* so I don't think that the condensation has much to do with the vivarium and room temps being different. Although the RH in the room, as measured with the analog hydrometer, is around 40%

Thanks everyone for your input!


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Rulty said:


> For a point of reference my house is kept at 80*


More a temperature question to you...what is the temp of the viv with the light running? I'm having a problem trying to keep the viv cool enough during the day(house air conditioning turned "up").

Before I set up my viv (no frogs yet) my smart thermostat was set to 85* during the day when nobody is home & I have VERY reasonable electric bill for South Florida.

I'm willing to eat a higher electric bill to cool the room but I have my limits . Over the next month, I'm experimenting with day time air set to 78 currently and still getting peak temps in the low 80's in the viv.

I haven't seen the new electric bill yet, that will determine if frogs are for me I guess.

Looking at Lucs, they should be able to handle low 80's during the day with a cool down at night?


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

I can't/wont say for sure about what temps frogs need (sorry, I just haven't even gotten my first ones yet so I don't feel comfortable giving advice without at least some hands on experience!) But as far as my temps go they are a steady 80. Although the bulb that I am using doesn't throw off much, if any heat. I figured I didn't need that at 80*, but I do have one that will raise the temp 5*- 10* just in case.

If I were you I'd also check to make sure you are using a bulb that doesn't throw off heat. I imagine 80* is fine as long as there is airflow for evaporative cooling to take place. I do notice my humidity at night/when I get home from work is around 65% and temps will be at 80*. After misting temps drop to about 75ish and my humidity goes to >70%

After re-reading your post I would feel confident suggesting that you could try 80* with a fan set up in case you need the extra help with cooling. Of course make sure that your humidity is in a good range if the fan is blowing out of the enclosure I bet that humidity could drop very quickly.


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Rulty said:


> After re-reading your post I would feel confident suggesting that you could try 80* with a fan set up in case you need the extra help with cooling. Of course make sure that your humidity is in a good range if the fan is blowing out of the enclosure I bet that humidity could drop very quickly.


I've used some scrap wood to raid the light hood off the glass about 1-1/2" and that has helped. I am using (2) 13W LED bulbs from Josh's Frogs, may consult them for a cooler light source.

What bulbs are you using?

I'm looking at aquarium fans that are small, something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01DXHFI9Y/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3JOXQD5CKDA39&psc=1

You can set up a bank of 1 to 6 fans. Quiet and are designed to blow across the top of aquarium tops or the water itself that I think would work to blow air between my viv top (1/2 glass - 1/2 no see-um mesh) and the light hood displacing the hot air.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> More a temperature question to you...what is the temp of the viv with the light running? I'm having a problem trying to keep the viv cool enough during the day(house air conditioning turned "up").
> 
> Before I set up my viv (no frogs yet) my smart thermostat was set to 85* during the day when nobody is home & I have VERY reasonable electric bill for South Florida.
> 
> ...


I sure don't like any of my dart frog vivs to get far into the 80s during the day. It was one of the bigger surprises to me at the beginning that dart frogs are so susceptible to heat. I know that not all species are equally sensitive to heat, but they are a lot better suited to taking temps that are too cold than they are too hot. I would really pay close attention to the humidity in the tank if you are planning on running in the low 80s. If humidity is too high, you take away one of their key abilities to mitigate the heat - evaporation won't occur and the frogs could be in serious trouble.

Mark


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> It was one of the bigger surprises to me at the beginning that dart frogs are so susceptible to heat.
> Mark


Me too!!!!


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

LED bulbs shouldn't be throwing off much heat I'm using a 26 watt exo Terra bulb for now. It looks like an energy saving bulb, you know the ccfl style twisty kind. 

One thing I like, which is simply a weird thing for me, when the bulb turns on the gases need to warm up and that causes the light to get brighter over the first few minutes of it being on, almost like the sun is rising


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm actually surprised how much heat the LED's throw off, they raise the viv temp only a couple degrees but the difference from room temp 80 to viv temp 82 is a problem. 70 room to 72 viv wouldn't be an issue.


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

At that point I don't feel like you can get much less of a difference as far as temps. What does your humidity sit at?


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Rulty said:


> At that point I don't feel like you can get much less of a difference as far as temps. What does your humidity sit at?


99% (right after I mist of course) to, last night I saw a low of 69%


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

You may be fine at those temps if it's evaporating like that, unfortunately we just crossed into territory that I can't give useful advice on. From my research I would be ok with putting a frog in there, but in all honesty what do I know


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Rulty said:


> unfortunately we just crossed into territory that I can't give useful advice on. From my research I would be ok with putting a frog in there, but in all honesty what do I know


Yup, NO OFFENSE but blind leading the blind at this point  We're both new to this, neither one of us has a frog yet lol


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> Yup, NO OFFENSE but blind leading the blind at this point  We're both new to this, neither one of us has a frog yet lol


Haha exactly! I just don't wanna hand out advice and then end up your frogs not happy because of me


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## thrain (Apr 11, 2018)

so i've had my 4 tincs for almost a year now and at first, i would hand mist for 10 seconds with a hand pump sprayer daily... and that lasted all of 2 months because everything would always be covered in condensation, my hygrometer would always say 95%, and everything just looked... boggy, then the fungus gnats started appearing 1-2 at a time, then 4-5 at a time. now i just mist heavily for 20 seconds twice a week or so (every other feeding) and clean the petri dish i leave in the tank with fresh distilled water on non-feeding days (i notice my frogs love to poop in the water i leave them to hydrate with). So far, i think my frogs have been happy? i guess they would appreciate a small occilating fan, but i don't want to go through the hassle of assembling/installing one.

i also need to add that maybe i'm not watering enough... i've never seen ANY water collect in my drainage layer! all the guides on terrarium building advised me to make it at least 3 inches, eggcrate and pvc pipe method provides more water holding capacity, drainage tube built in would make it easier to siphon off water later, etc. 98% of the water i spray/dump in my tank ends up in substrate/back wall/on wood+plants and i guess some trickles down to moisten my drainage layer clay balls


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

So I got my frog this weekend. My analog gauge is constantly getting lower, low as 60-65 and this was with the addition of the fogger! Needless to say I pulled that hunk of junk out of there. I'm pretty comfortable with my humidity levels based on his behavior so far. 

Ole Bartholomew seems like he is eating fine, ate maybe 30-50 FF the first day, but only the first time I fed him the second day. He has been exploring, probably trying to find places to escape. He even has an area he likes to go to at night!









Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Fine lookin' frog you got there.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> Condensation on the glass just tell you that you have reach the point where condensation is formed.
> 
> There are 3 important parameters that creates condensation. Temperature inside/ outside the terrarium and the humidity inside the terrarium. If you are running big ventilation the humidity outside the terrarium is a factor as well.


This is correct, and useful.

Seems like we could approximate viv humidity if -- when there is condensation on the glass -- we know viv temp and the temp of the glass (I don't know exactly what the temp of the glass would be in relation to the viv temp and ambient temp, but it would be between those two extremes). 

Entering into a RH calculator such as this one (Dew Point Calculator) the viv temp as 'temperature' and the temp of the glass as 'dew point' would give you the RH above which the viv is when there is condensation on the glass.

I suppose an IR temp gun could be used to determine the temps: shoot a piece of decor inside the viv to measure the viv temp, and put a piece of tape or something on the inside of the glass and shoot that to measure glass temp. (I don't know whether IR temp guns read glass or read through it, but I do know that they don't read anything reflective with any accuracy.)

FWIW, I just watch the plants and frogs and they tell me if it is too wet or too dry in there. I tried training the frogs to read a hygrometer, but they didn't catch on.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I just watch the plants and frogs and they tell me if it is too wet or too dry in there.


Exactly. A complementary - or perhaps prerequisite - approach is to ensure provision of temp & moisture gradients, which allows the animals to encounter and select what they need. (Or, the gardener can move the plants around until they're happy!)

These temp & moisture gradients are easiest to provide in a sizeable enclosure. A bit of height and some width & depth _help so much_.

They are also facilitated by inclusion of a - wait for it! - _water feature_. Ha ha. Did I just cuss? Heh heh heh. Really though. I don't necessarily mean open water, or flowing water - it can just be a little bit of mossy drip wall, a little "seepage" that only flows for a minute or so, once or twice a day. You can get a similar effect under a drippy mister head, if you can isolate the wet spot and retain some dry areas elsewhere. Pockets of turface or other well-drained materials help here.


Finally, adequate passive ventilation, with screened openings both high and low to get a some air flow in there, also helps tremendously.

Another benefit to using there techniques is you learn a lot from the animals, fast. Plus there's the aesthetic pleasure of watching your animals move around and use different portions of their enclosure at different times of day or night.

Good luck OP!


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

I actually have the top mostly closed, some foil on the back right now but I can see fog coming out the top so it def leaves some vent, and my tank is the style that has front vents. Today was my first day of work since getting Bartholomew and when I opened the front to feed him he came right out to see what was going on absolutely demolished 15 or so of the flies that I put in there. Since then he has just been sitting on the leaf litter at the front! Seems like I chose a bold one! (I hope so I tried to use their behavior at the show to pick one that doesn't mind being out) 

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Edit for pics


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

What fern is that in the lower right of your photo?


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

I'mNew2Frogs! said:


> What fern is that in the lower right of your photo?


I believe it's a rabbits foot fern

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Rulty said:


> I believe it's a rabbits foot fern
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


I was going to guess Korean Rock Fern or Rabbits Foot


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Rulty said:


> LED bulbs shouldn't be throwing off much heat I'm using a 26 watt exo Terra bulb for now. It looks like an energy saving bulb, you know the ccfl style twisty kind.
> 
> One thing I like, which is simply a weird thing for me, when the bulb turns on the gases need to warm up and that causes the light to get brighter over the first few minutes of it being on, almost like the sun is rising


If you like the slow rise in light of these CFL bulbs (compact fluorescent) you might want to purchase additional bulbs from the same manufacturer with the same dates of manufacture. This is an old style bulb design and they are going the way of the dodo. Most people who are installing bulbs in their home want the light full on when they turn on the switch, not a slow rise in light level. Newer bulb design does the instant on, the older style of CFL did not.


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## Rulty (Feb 12, 2019)

davecalk said:


> If you like the slow rise in light of these CFL bulbs (compact fluorescent) you might want to purchase additional bulbs from the same manufacturer with the same dates of manufacture. This is an old style bulb design and they are going the way of the dodo. Most people who are installing bulbs in their home want the light full on when they turn on the switch, not a slow rise in light level. Newer bulb design does the instant on, the older style of CFL did not.


I get what you are saying, but it's not a must for me. Just thought it was kinda cool that my frog was getting a small window of wake up period, like a rising sun, vs just BAM! Let there be light!


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I actually find that warm-up, brighten-up thing to be a feature, not a bug. I've got about 30 old CFLs of different wattages for exactly this purpose. Until about a decade ago I had a whole lot more animals, and though I moved most of them and their cages along, I kept a lot of "consumable" equipment and supplies in totes. When I lose a bulb I shop my totes first, for a replacement. The old bulbs still fire up.

Each of my current tanks has a mix of old CFLs and new(ish) LEDs. Running a whole bank of CFLs all on one timer, and all the LEDs all on another, allows a brighter mid-day period (all lights on) plus some mellower times before and after (just the CFLs on). 

Of course nowadays there's also the fancy "sunrise, sunset, lightning storm multi-channel blah blah blah" controllers that a guy or gal can buy. I'm not trashing them, I reckon they're quite nice! But, _time will tell_ how well they hold up, compared to the old gear, which if a little clunky is pretty bulletproof. (No joke - I've got working, analog wall timers ticking along right now, that are 25 years old.) And cheap. And simple. 

There's _nothing wrong_ with bulletproof, cheap, and simple...plus, the waste heat provided by the CFLs also provides some of those temp & humidity gradients, and passive air flow, I was talking about before.

Good luck OP!


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