# Bloat...



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I have had two pummies succumb to bloat over the past 9ish months or so and was curious about any preventative measure that can be done to try to keep bloat from happening. Admittedly I don't know a lot about it, but in both situations the ringers dip administration was either too late or ineffective as both died shortly after their first treatment. I am just curious if there is any way to lessen the chances of any more frogs getting bloat (not talking about sterilizing the vivs here... already done) in the future, or is this one of those silent killers that is pretty much impossible to deal with until it is noticed.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

sbreland said:


> I have had two pummies succumb to bloat over the past 9ish months or so and was curious about any preventative measure that can be done to try to keep bloat from happening. Admittedly I don't know a lot about it, but in both situations the ringers dip administration was either too late or ineffective as both died shortly after their first treatment. I am just curious if there is any way to lessen the chances of any more frogs getting bloat (not talking about sterilizing the vivs here... already done) in the future, or is this one of those silent killers that is pretty much impossible to deal with until it is noticed.


In my limited experience with this condition (3 animals, separate instances, seemingly related to shipping/stress) it is my opinion that this condition is the end result of various stressors.

Anything from changes in temps/spikes, foot traffic, lighting, new vivs, new tankmates, shipping, ect.

all resulting in the end, in 'bloat', or the thing we call/recognize as such. Whether that is some bacterial overgrowth or intestinal impaction, or electrolyte disturbance, I dont know.

Either way, it seems not to be easily treatable by the time it is recognized.

Reduce environmental stress by stabilizing temps, feeding on regular schedules, misting regularly, keeping hands out of tanks, keeping tankmates consistent, ect. and hope for the best.

I've tried baths, drips, antibiotics, ect myself, but havent been successful. Likely b/c of late recognition of the 'problem' or b/c the stress (ie new arrivals) was too great to overcome.

What do they say are the biggies for stress in people:
Moving 
Divorce 
Job loss 
Death in family.

I am sure there are frog correlates.

S


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't know if anyone knows the true source of bloat, but stress and all the causes of it surely contribute to it.

I have actually been able to pull back a number of frogs with this issue by treating them in a weak bath of diluted PimaFix (or Melafix).

I add a drop to the bottom of a 16 oz cup, and add enough water to delute it. Then, I pour the water out, and readd new water. If you smell the container, you can tell there is stil some medication in the container. 

I place the frog in there for a few hours and then return them to their cage or container. 

I use these medications for all issues I have with my frogs and have gotten the best results from these two medications. The meds are all natural & you should be able to pick them up at any pet supply location. 

I was never able to save a sick frog with any medication, etc... until I started using these meds. Now I have over a 50 - 75% chance of saving most animals.

Melissa


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

That's interesting... never heard of that med... will have to check it out.

Now that you mention it, both of the frogs that died from bloat had recently introduced tankmates. Both of the new frogs had been quarantined and treated, so I doubt it was an infectious process from the new frog to the old, but nevertheless, both started showing signs a few of weeks after the new tankmates were introduced. In fact, now that I think of it, both of the frogs that died from bloat had been longtime lone residents of their viv with no tankmates, and not terribly long after the new frogs were introduced they started to show signs. Makes me wonder if having frogs in all by themselves for long periods of time and then introducing a new tankmate is too much of a shock to the system or if these were just particularly sensitive frogs or maybe both...


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## rdooley79 (Apr 24, 2007)

This is an interesting topic, I have a trio that I had to split one off of because of physical size disparage which also cause the smaller one to get out hunted for FF's. the two big ones are in the original viv and the small one is living in a temp 10 gallon with all my plants im waiting to use to plant a 20g for all three to move in to at the same time. The 29g is MUCH larger and should house the three tinc's, providing them enough room to keep out of each others way and let the smaller one hunt out of the way of the larger ones. The med you mentioned sounds like a must have. Ill see if I can find it locally but if not i assume you can find it online somewhere. 

Thanks for the referral!


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Melafix is used alot in aquarium's etc.It's basically tea tree extract you can also use Indian almond leaf extract as well most of the stuff we can utilize for frog's has already been in the aquarium hobby for many year's.
It does work though I use melafix as well.
Goodluck

When I get new amphibian's I spray them with a mixture of melafix and ro water before tank introduction.Equal part's of each about 2oz worth in a small micromist sprayer.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

I too just lost one of my Auratus to bloat. I thought at first it was getting too much food and was getting fat. Then I noticed none of the other frogs was getting fat. This poor thing looked like a froggie water ballon!!

But I must say that there was no type of stress introduced into the viv. It has been the same 4 auratus since the first day over one year in the viv. Unless the 4 were not getting along for some reason. I have never noticed fighting of any kind.

My question would be, is there any chance that this condition could be contagious to the other inhabitants of a viv??


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

dragonfrog said:


> My question would be, is there any chance that this condition could be contagious to the other inhabitants of a viv??


That depends on the cause of the condition. If it is due to an infectious process (often bacterial) - then yes - spread is possible.

It (bloat) can also be caused by renal failure - for which the underlying causes are varied.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I don't know if anyone knows the true source of bloat, but stress and all the causes of it surely contribute to it"endsnip

Bloat is a symptom not a disease...although we commonly act like it is a disease. 

The appearence of bloat can be a symptom of one of the following... and this is not an all inclusive list) 

liver disease/failure
hypervitaminosis
kidney disruption/failure (although an exotic animal pathologist I know told me that in amphibians he sees much more liver failure than kidney failure)
disruption of osmotic balance
septicemia (not uncommon for example in "red leg" ("red leg" is also more properly a symptom not a disease)
obstruction in the intestional tract


Now immunosuppression from due to stress (which can come from many items including shipping, moves, redecoration of enclosures etc) can cause allow a disease outbreak which can result in the symptom of bloat. 

The use of ARS is not supposed to be a dip. The animal should be kept in the dip for significant periods of time (dip implies exactly that). I have kept amphibians with retained fluids in/on ARS for more than a week at a time while they were under treatment (the ARS can be used to wet papertowels for the moisture source for the frogs) as long as the ARS was changed daily. 


I have strong reservations about the safety of tea tree oil due to the fact that it is strongly lipophilic. rapidly penetrates the skin and can cause liver damage because it has a similar effect as turpentine on the body. (the terpines in the oil are very similar to terpines in turpentine and exposure to tea tree oil can cause turpentine sensitivity and vice versa)). 

Turpentine was at one time also used as a medicinal treatment (if I remember correctly there are treatments listed in the old Foxfire series and see http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/ab ... lCode=nyas). For the toxic effects of turpentine see http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelin ... ition.html 

Ed


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed,

I don't recommend going out and treating everyone of your frogs with Melafix or Melafin, but they are the only treatment I have successfully treated bloat with. 

I use a very diluted dosage - one of those bottles can treat 600 gallons...so I use a very diluted drop of the liquid on a frog, and let them soak in the solution. 

Any medication or cure all used in high dosages will cause harm.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

the LC toxicity data for turpentine is 5000 ug/l (or if I remember correctly this converts to 5000 ppb) in amphibians (specifically anurans) see http://pesticideinfo.org/Ref_Aquire.jsp ... umber=6288

As the toxic/active ingredients in tea tree oil are the very similar to turpentine, the toxicity levels should be similar... 

The problem is that without knowing the causative agent for bloat in your case the remissions could have been spontaneous and not linked to the tea tree oil.. (amphibians can spontaneously resolve bloat depending on the causative agent). 

Ed


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Without knowing the specifics of tea tree oil, I really can't comment on the similarities to turpentine. 

I also do not know how much is in melafin & melafix. So, without knowing the % of tea tree oil or make up of melafin or melafix - I have not noticed any negative reactions when frogs are soaked in a very diluted solution. 

I was just sharing my experiences with using this medication, and the fact I have pulled over 75% of sick frogs back that have been treated with it (in extremely diluted amounts) to the 0% I have pulled back under the care of a vet and using medications supplied by vets. 

We often look past natural medications and go for the prescribed treatments given by doctors/vets.

FYI - when I treat a frog with either medication, I add 1 drop of medication to a 16 oz container. I then fill it half way with water, and drain all water from the container. Then, I add approx 2-4 oz of water back in and place the frog in the container. I can't even guess at what the ppb would be in the solution, but there is a noticeable smell.

This is not a routine treatment for my frogs, but the exception if I notice a frog in really bad shape. My thoughts are without any treatment the frog will die, I give it a chance of survival through this treatment. 

All the causes of bloat you mentioned are very serious, and should be tested before treatment. Not all of us have your facilities and no how to personally perform these tests and often it is too late to send out samples and wait for recommendations from a professional. 

Melissa


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

For the similarites with turpentine many of the active ingredients (phenolic terpenic compunds) (such as a-terpinene, terpinen-4-ol, limonene, β-pinene for example) or very close analogs are found in turpentine 

Depending on the concentration of the melafix you are using, it comes in 1% and 3% doses... 

If you are using a 1% solution and a standard eyedropper then knowing the information from the MSDS (see http://www.aquaticeco.com/MSDS/PDFs/1768.pdf ( I would also suggest noting that if absorbed into the body it causes significant systemic issues and frog skin is a little sponge absorbing all kinds of things (particuarly those known to be lipophilic) directly into thier system. Also note that the MSDS says not to discharge into sewage or water ways.. or to get on your skin, in your eyes...) Then one drop into 16 fl ozs (you are using a 16 fl ounce container for dilution chamber right? as a 16 ounce container has a different concentration) then ending concentration is 56 ppb (which is below the point at which 50% of the exposed amphibians die) but this is also well below the recommended theraputic dose in the literature (see http://www.rirdc.gov.au/fullreports/tto.html). However in any concentration the active ingredients are known to be skin irritants and liver toxins... 

If you are using a different eye dropper than a standard one, then the volume can be significantly larger which would result in a dose closer to that where mortality significantly increases. 

Also using the version of melafix with a standard dropper increases the dose to 168 ppb.. 

The problem is still that the ingredients are still hepatotoxic and liver damage can have long term chronic issues. 

You would be better off working out a protocol with a vet for treatment until they can be consulted. For example, immediately upon detection of bloating in amphibians at work, they are moved into either an ARS bath or onto a substrate (damp paper towels) moistened with ARS until the vets can come check. Most of the time, anurans are placed onto an antibiotic treatment (because if it is due to a septicemia depending on the bacteria involved a failure to start treatment can result in death within hours) until a work up can be accomplished. 

The main issue I have with your method is 
1) it is a shotgun treatment with a dose that is below a theraputic level
2) the causes of bloat remain unresolved 
3) the treatment is with an item known to cause liver and kidney damage
4) it is with a material known to be very irritating to membranes like frog skin which can cause problems with osmotic regulation as well as with pain... 

while you maybe giving the frog a short term increase in survivial (taking into account my above issues,) the long term prognosis for the animal maybe an issue due to organ damage. 


Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

ed, when you mean liver failure, (other than hypervitamosis), could it be caused by obesity? (fatty liver).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Fatty liver is one of the problems that can cause it. The damage could be done by a number of items such as oversupplementation, overdosing (either chronic or over time), disease process, overfeeding (fatty liver), and parasites to name a few. 


Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Interesting Ed

One of the only cases that I sent for pathology after "bloat" was an imported Orange lamasi that was seemly well for 5 months then 'bloated up' within days of being shipped to me, stopped eating and died. 

The only pathology identified on Necropsy was that of a significantly enlarged liver. "3x normal size". 

The cause though was never ascertained. 

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Shawn,

Was histopath done on the liver? 

Ed


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## fishdoc (Apr 24, 2007)

*water balloon or frog*

I have a 55 with 8 auratus, yes I know thats too many, and I have been planning on separating, but was waiting until spring. These were froglets last spring. One is blown up like a balloon, literally. I do supplement (dust) and I did feed every day, but I have stopped feeding every day and have gone to every other day. I over feed. I know I do, but I have a list of reasons (8 in one tank being one of them). My question: 
I have baytril. I have metronadazole (sp??) and I have Hanks balanced salt solution which also contains phenol red. I am in the sticks, so this is the treasure chest available. Any ideas?
connie
Hanks contains: KCL, Kh2PO4, Ha2HPO4, d-glucose, phenol red (.10) and an osmolality of 275. pH7.1


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

If you read through this post carefully I think you will find the answer is "none of the above".....

I would pull the frog from this stressful tank environment, feed sparingly and only if it is eating, and if possibly try a 10% dilution of Ca gluconate [feed/horse-cattle stores have it] dripped onto the back to maintain hydration and calcium stores....while it recovers [maybe].

Best,

S


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## fishdoc (Apr 24, 2007)

*shawn*

So would you think its overfeeding (fatty liver) or over supplementation? This weekend is devoted to new tank building- fun fun....well it is fun except when you have to do it!! 
c.


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## fishdoc (Apr 24, 2007)

*necropsy*

So, frog did not survive, and we did a necropsy today- liver was very light colored with definite white spotting around edges. Hard to tell if it was postmortem, did not appear to be _in_ the tissue, but rather on the liver itself. No other notable anomolies, but then I don't know what I'm looking for. I would think that fatty infiltrates would look like they were in the tissue, not on it...so I am in the process of building new cages, changed water on all tanks to artesian water rather than RO water, and I'll try to back off the fruit flies....


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