# 10 Years of changes in the hobby



## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

I left the hobby some time in 2006. I notice most of the names I remember are gone. With a couple of exceptions. I am the only 2004 member that I have seen so far. I remember jumping on Dendroboard the day I heard about it. I think I might have set up my first email just to become a member of Dendroboard. Either that or online poker I cannot remember which account came first.

I will add things to this list as I figure them out. These are the thing I have noticed so far. Let me know if I am totally wrong. 


1. Ventilation. It seems like people really care about this. I don't remember it at all. The only thing it was discussed about was to keep the front glass clean. Occasionally new froggers would ask about ventilation and usually be told not to worry about it. All my tanks just had 2 glass pieces cut for the top. They cover the whole top and the only ventilation came from the morning misting and afternoon feeding. So I usually opened each tank twice a day.

2. Tank Size seems to have gotten a lot bigger. Back in my day, the standard was a 10 gallon. A 20 gallon tank was considered perfect ( at least by me) for most pairs. My favorite tank was a 29 gallon. There was that dude in Michigan that built a mega frog room viv that you could actually walk into. Is that still a thing? 

3. Exo Terra, these were just becoming a thing as I was exiting the hobby. Now they seem to be very common place, affordable, and pretty freaking cool.

4. Where the hell are the podcasts and videos. What the hell have you people been doing.
I will start my own podcast because this is ridiculous. Who wants to be my first guest? Co-host?

5. Importations seem to be a regular thing. Whereas some of the CIB frogs I remember seeing all the time in the classifieds seem to be less visible.

6. Treating animals - Is this pretty common now. I never treated a frog with any sort of medicine. Just put in a quarantine viv and hope for the best was pretty much the course of action.


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## PoisonArrow (Apr 8, 2016)

Things defenitly change over time, sometimes its good other times not so much. I will say that I am glad I entered the hobby when Exo Terra cages where already out. New so far to me is the LED's light systems. Got two and love how many feature these things have. Wish they were cheaper but I guess with time they will keep dropping in price.


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

Welcome back to the hobby! I totally agree, minimum cage sizing keeps getting bigger! When I first entered the hobby, my only guide was books, as I diddn't know about this place yet. The book's "minimum caging size" is a lot smaller then what has been said on the boardI'm sure you will find other cool things that wasn't available/thought of 10 years ago in this hobby.

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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I've only been on for forum for a few years. But I'll take a stab.

1. Ventilation: Yes seems to be a popular thing now. I don't really ventilate my tanks although I have some exo terras (more on that below). I have noticed most folks seem to be doing it for better plant health and I will say I think it's probably a better idea to vent (or at least have some air circulation, especially for ferns.

2. Tank Size seems to have gotten a lot bigger. The smallest I have is a 2 1/2 gallon for grow out. I'm up to about 14 tanks, the three largest are 75, 55, and 40. 20 is my more standard sized tank.

3. Exo Terra: I really like them. They are super convenient, I have three. A 36” x 18” x 18”, 24” x 18” x 24”, and a 18” x 18” x 12". The local herp specialty store I sell my froglets to keeps them in stock, so I can get them pretty cheap. I have two Biopods on order those might blow you away (of course they haven't been tested yet so we'll see how that goes): Biopod

4. Where the hell are the podcasts and videos: There are a lot of videos on youtube. I browse there regularly. I don't really know what a podcast is. 

5. Importations: Maybe it's just my impression, but i thought there were fewer now than before.

6. Treating animals - I haven't had a lot of illness, so I haven't really had a need to treat animals. I've had stressed frogs that were not eating enough so I've treated some of those with 2% Calcium Gluconate. I also have Isotonic Amphibian’s Ringer on hand in case I ever need it. I need to get one of those frog emergency first aid kits, but I can't find them lately. But yes a lot of people I think are close by to vets who will treat amphibians. So I think availability of medications and access to vets who know how to treat small animals has increased and that's why you see an increase in folks who use them. I know froggers in rural areas still don't' really have a lot of vet access, so I doubt they do much treating.

Welcome back by the way!
Mike


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

You should also be seeing a huge increase in frog choices available compared to 2006. Also, the frogs of 2006 should generally be much cheaper than they were back then. 

Supplements have taken a huge jump. We now know that spindly leg syndrome and short tongue syndrome are merely indicators of a lack of nutrition. These are not issues anymore, if one is using the proper supplements.


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## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

LED lighting is definitely new and interesting.

I am also happy about new supplements. I used Dendrocare ( i think that was its name) and then when that became out of style I switched to Rep- Cal and Herptivite.

I think there are certainly more importations now. When I first started there was zero imports ( at least that I saw publicly). Then the man creek and chiriqui came in. That was the only importation I knew about in my entire time frogging over about a 4 year span. 

7. the USA DART thread is pretty bizarre. I never remember any such thing . Of course there was the occasional cross breeding and other frown upon activity. This is just bizarre though. Definitely has to be some sort of mental issue involved.

8. Isopods, frogs can eat those now? They must be much different from the armored up rollie pollies in my flower beds. 

Back in the day I was so hyped to find new foods. I was always on the hunt for something that could be cultured and fed to frogs. I used to make a few people pretty upset because I thought we should be trying to put the poison back in the frogs. I used to feed them spiders all the time.

Are the any other foods out there? Ants or termites? Anyway to culture those?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I'll touch on a couple of these...

1. Ventilation - There is definitely more emphasis on ventilation now than before and I will give a lot of credit to Ed on that. He has constantly stressed the importance of the frogs being able to perform evaporative cooling as a means for the frogs to regulate temperature. Proper ventilation has probably saved an enormous amount of frogs from death during heat spikes.

Another factor in the increased willingness to ventilate tanks is probably that more people are investing in automated misting systems. I feel a lot more comfortable about bigger vents on my tanks in the summer months when I know they are going to get a nice mist a few times a day without me having to remember to do it. 

Another benefit of the ventilation is it makes it easier to properly cycle our frogs, instead of constantly keeping them in high-humidity/breeding intensive conditions. During the winter I dial back misting and the tanks dry out a bit more, which slows down some of the frogs and gives their bodies a break.

8. Isopods (and other foods) - A lot of people use isopods as a tank janitor with the bonus of them being a potential prey item as well. There are a lot of different species available and each one has its own merits. I keep a couple smaller species because they reproduce fast and even the adults can be prey for a larger frogs. I also keep giant orange isopods since the adults _can't_ be eaten by most adult frogs (though maybe some big terribilis would take them down). With the larger species, the isopods that manage to reach adulthood will stay in the tank for a while and reproduce without much worry of predation. This provides an almost constant source of baby isopods as frog food. 

Termites are an option but keeping colonies going can be a pain as since you have to have a queen. There are some people that sell them from time to time on the forum and they can be a great snack for your frogs (especially during breeding season), but they shouldn't be offered very frequently. 

Ants aren't really recommended, but there are other great options like bean beetles, rice flour beetles and even aphids. All can be great snacks and offering them occasionally is a nice habit to get into, but none really replace FFs (or small crickets) as a staple.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

I will say, the idea of ventilation being necessary isn't really new to darts, some intrepid amphibian folk have been touting it for decades now. Look at this excerpt from the Dendrobatid section of the book 'Keeping and Breeding Amphibians" by Chris Mattison. 










That was published in *1993*. 
But, it really has been thanks to people like Ed for bringing it up over and over again to us and drilling it into our brains that we need ventilation and air movement.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Whoa... and he even talked about computer fans in that one. Thanks for sharing that!


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I'm with ya Jace. I had to get out of the hobby about 5-6 years ago due to a move and an injury but I've been dieing to get back.

This all sounds about right, LED's being the big change I'm seeing. I cant tell that min tank sizes are getting bigger, but then I always tended to use a bigger tank than I needed anyway.

It's funny how one always comes back to this hobby! Once a frogger always a frogger.

Speaking of supplements, what's the decent vitamin/calcium supplement these days? I used to use Rep-Cal products, are those still the norm?


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## tonysly (Dec 7, 2004)

Jace - I'm a 2004 member. I don't post much at all though. In fact I watched as a bystander for a few months when dendroboard first started, then decided to join because of the nudging of some friends. Got my first pdfs in '99. For me it never gets old, it has become a big part of my life.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

I really love seeing posts like this. I'm a younger (in age) and somewhat newer member (about a year and a half) and I always like to hear about the hobby in the past, almost as though everyone is talking about the "glory days" of the hobby, when we didn't have USA frog, forum drama, or the general influx of those that wish to ignore care tips, mix species, cram as many frogs into a tank as possible, or stay practical in their approach to the hobby. 

For me, I have been able to tell for a while that this hobby will stick with me for my entire lifetime, and I've said before that the better "connections" that existed further back in the hobby are desirable to me, and honestly being able to actively participate in conservation efforts through donations or travelling to South or Central America and helping out (still trying out how to make the latter viable). 

I'd love to hear podcasts, and interviews, and really delving into the science. As many have mentioned, Ed has been a huge help, and his biological/zoological background has really helped us to understand both the requirements and the mannerisms of these fantastic creatures.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I was thinking more about the ventilation question after reading some more of the replies here. I was looking at it too narrowly.  I was mentally lumping all ventilation into the same category as say a more active type of ventilation, such as with fans. I think that was too narrow minded of me. None of my tanks have fans. But 3 are exo terra tanks and they have vents. My two largest tanks (75 and 55 gallon acrylic tanks) both have mesh tops, so they are technically vented also. All four of my 20 gallons have the same glass canopy with that plastic back piece to close off the top, but all have a 1mm or so gap along the front, so I guess those are vented also. So maybe the only tanks I have that aren't vented are the grow out containers for the froglets. Those are all just plastic containers from target with latching lids.

So maybe I'm in the ventilated crowd. 
mike


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Being relatively new to dart frogs, specifically and rather new to this site, I have a question about tank size:
Was it as common 10 years ago, as it is today, for people new to dart frogs to frequently buy or decide on a tank size first,........and then ask what kind of frogs they can shoe horn into it?
Maybe this phenomenon is specific to the dart frog community. Not sure. But I can't really wrap my head around it. My thinking is the opposite: decide what pet you think you might want, research it, pick the species/breed that best suits your needs/wants and best suits your ability to properly care for it,.....THEN make provisions to care for it. 
Has it always been common for people to go buy a tank, then join the board and ask what they can put in it?


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## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

@ Blueper, yeah I seem to remember that sort of question a lot. 

I never understood why anyone would want any frog other than Azureus to start with.


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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I'm sure this isn't specific to dart frogs, but this is the first and only animal-specific enthusiast board I've been a member of. 
I've noticed that question more than a few times. Wasn't sure if it had something to do with the gaining popularity of PDFs as pets and an influx of newbs like myself in the past few years, or if it was something that's always been asked.
Which leads to my next question:
Have PDFs gained in popularity as pets and are there a lot more people entering the hobby now, than 10 yrs ago?
I would have to assume so, or a company like USA wouldn't see a market to exploit.


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

thats another thing you will have to get used to. Azureus were once one of the most coveted and sought after frogs and really $$$. These days people scoff and say things like "_just_ an azureus". To me a blue frog is just as fascinating today as it was in 1998 when I got my first ones. I didn't like them because they were expensive and an 'elite' frog at the time. I liked them because they were a BLUE frog! But many people incorporate the retail value of frogs into their attitude about them. Just because a frog becomes abundant and 'common' shouldn't make them less 'cool' in my opinion.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed is still on here? I used to love reading all his technical posts. They were great!


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

I was just reading through the book Poison Frogs; Biology, Species & Captive husbandry (The frog bible) by Lötters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt. This book was published in 2007, and obviously from europe (they might have other ideas on minimum size than us new worlders, Europeans, feel free to correct me), but I found this regarding tank size:







pg. 182

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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

2800 sq cm is somewhere between a 40 breeder (36x18/ 4100+ sq cm) and a 29 (30x12/ 2300+ sq cm).
And I'm assuming that would be what they suggest as the bare minimum (?)


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

I have no idea, but it sounded small, that's why I posted it

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## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

It definitely sounds a little on the small side. Especially when you add in the backgrounds and decor and you've lost almost half your footprint. I could see a half dozen auratus in a 40 breeder, with a usable background that added to the footprint. Or, at least didn't take much away from it. That would come in somewhere around their recommended 2800 sq cm for 6 auratus.


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## viper69 (Dec 28, 2013)

I'm curious, why did tanks get larger?

I'm also surprised that ventilation wasn't done in the past like it is now. I can't wrap my head as to why people thought it wasn't necessary. Maybe people associated rain forest with stagnant air??

What's the recommended brand/s of supplements now?


I too remember when azureus was $$$ and considered a different species as well. I just love them because they are blue, didnt care about the cost then or now


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Jace King said:


> 8. Isopods, frogs can eat those now? They must be much different from the armored up rollie pollies in my flower beds.
> 
> Back in the day I was so hyped to find new foods. I was always on the hunt for something that could be cultured and fed to frogs. I used to make a few people pretty upset because I thought we should be trying to put the poison back in the frogs. I used to feed them spiders all the time.
> 
> Are the any other foods out there? Ants or termites? Anyway to culture those?


Lots of isopod species are available and they are pretty easy to culture.

Bean beetles and rice flour beetles are somewhat popular alternative / occasional / backup feeder. There's a few different fruit fly mutations commonly available.

I just started my first subterranean termite cultures. I doubt they will get anywhere but time will tell. They're a really great feeder and all my frogs love them but they're way too expensive to order regularly.

I think for the most parts ants are for the extremely adventurous. I've read a few threads and wasn't too thrilled on the idea or either culturing them or collecting them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jace King said:


> 1. Ventilation. It seems like people really care about this. I don't remember it at all. The only thing it was discussed about was to keep the front glass clean. Occasionally new froggers would ask about ventilation and usually be told not to worry about it. All my tanks just had 2 glass pieces cut for the top. They cover the whole top and the only ventilation came from the morning misting and afternoon feeding. So I usually opened each tank twice a day.


This came about due to the recommendations in the hobby that temperatures that the frogs would normally experience were lethal and sub-optimal in those species studied (for example auratus given the option selectively deposit tadpoles in water that is 78 F). As an additional discussion point the sealing of the tanks prevents the tank and the frogs from using evaporative cooling as a physiological coping mechanism for dealing with high temperatures (like they do in the wild). 



Jace King said:


> 2. Tank Size seems to have gotten a lot bigger. Back in my day, the standard was a 10 gallon. A 20 gallon tank was considered perfect ( at least by me) for most pairs. My favorite tank was a 29 gallon. There was that dude in Michigan that built a mega frog room viv that you could actually walk into. Is that still a thing?


This is a result of pointing out that the old recommendations of 5 gallons/from as a guideline to determine the number of frogs that could go into an enclosure is a flawed way to work this out as the volume cubes while the surface area squares and in larger enclosures each frog could have the same surface area as a 2.5 gallon enclosure. A number of people in the hobby then chose to try and compensate by suggesting that ten or even 20 gallons/frog should (must be) the new standard even though this again has the same failure as the 5 gallon/frog while totally ignoring where the usable space for the frogs was actually located (consequently a well set up for a species small tank can be much better than a poorly set up larger enclosure). 



Jace King said:


> 5. Importations seem to be a regular thing. Whereas some of the CIB frogs I remember seeing all the time in the classifieds seem to be less visible.


Welcome to the cycles of popularity. 



Jace King said:


> 6. Treating animals - Is this pretty common now. I never treated a frog with any sort of medicine. Just put in a quarantine viv and hope for the best was pretty much the course of action.


Testing for various diseases and parasites is suggested by many of the hobbyists (such as ranavirus, chytrid) and should be more widespread but many people still quarantine like you did. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

How do you feed out your termites? I recently purchased a culture and the frogs don't seem to interested. 

I have been feeding a lot lately to make up for a slower period so they may be lacking that extra motivation to seek out a food item in a bowl.





port_plz said:


> I just started my first subterranean termite cultures. I doubt they will get anywhere but time will tell. They're a really great feeder and all my frogs love them but they're way too expensive to order regularly.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Haven't been around long enough to notice to many but ventilation and especially the idea of promoting evaporative cooling seems to be a relatively brand new concept.

It always seemed strange to me that animals from tropical rain forests needed to be kept at room temperature and god forbid it reached 80 degrees; so it makes perfect sense.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

cam1941 said:


> How do you feed out your termites? I recently purchased a culture and the frogs don't seem to interested.
> 
> I have been feeding a lot lately to make up for a slower period so they may be lacking that extra motivation to seek out a food item in a bowl.


I've gotten most of my frogs used to eating out of a bowl. It took a while and not all of them are as willing as others. I started out using petri dishes set on top of the media but the frogs where confused and most lost interest. Once I switched to these and also burying the bowls below the media they took to it a lot faster.

The least shy females are the ones who seem to take to bowl feeding fastest and some seem to keep an eye on the bowl for refills.

I use the little plastic condiment bowls for larger frogs and for thumbs I just put them in the film canisters with a tiny piece of cardboard.


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## viper69 (Dec 28, 2013)

port_plz said:


> and for thumbs I just put them in the film canisters with a tiny piece of cardboard.


What is the cardboard for? In lie of using a 3D printed bowl, not exactly common relative to other products, what would you suggest?

Actually, why do some people use bowls to feed, aside from determining if their frogs are eating?


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks... Yeah that's what I've been finding. What sucks is as you've mentioned earlier, the termites are too expensive to go to waste training them to eat out of the bowl. 

I think I should try them again when the frogs are hungrier because that's when they get more aggressive and attack anything that moves.

I wonder if I should worrying about termites getting loose in the tank. 



port_plz said:


> I've gotten most of my frogs used to eating out of a bowl. It took a while and not all of them are as willing as others. I started out using petri dishes set on top of the media but the frogs where confused and most lost interest. Once I switched to these and also burying the bowls below the media they took to it a lot faster.
> 
> The least shy females are the ones who seem to take to bowl feeding fastest and some seem to keep an eye on the bowl for refills.
> 
> I use the little plastic condiment bowls for larger frogs and for thumbs I just put them in the film canisters with a tiny piece of cardboard.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

port_plz said:


> I've gotten most of my frogs used to eating out of a bowl. It took a while and not all of them are as willing as others. I started out using petri dishes set on top of the media but the frogs where confused and most lost interest. Once I switched to these and also burying the bowls below the media they took to it a lot faster.
> 
> The least shy females are the ones who seem to take to bowl feeding fastest and some seem to keep an eye on the bowl for refills.
> 
> I use the little plastic condiment bowls for larger frogs and for thumbs I just put them in the film canisters with a tiny piece of cardboard.


Does this mean that there are fewer free-roaming insects within the viv? It would seem that in a group scenario that less aggressive frogs might get the short end of the stick when it comes feeding time. I might also be worried about the frogs developing a reliance on the central vessel, as opposed to hunting. Do you do this just for the bugs that you don't want cruising the viv, or for flies/microfauna as well?


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## viper69 (Dec 28, 2013)

Dane said:


> Does this mean that there are fewer free-roaming insects within the viv? It would seem that in a group scenario that less aggressive frogs might get the short end of the stick when it comes feeding time. I might also be worried about the frogs developing a reliance on the central vessel, as opposed to hunting. Do you do this just for the bugs that you don't want cruising the viv, or for flies/microfauna as well?


I was wondering the same things as well.

I would think it would be more interesting to watch them hunt. While I don't know how much energy they expend in hunting, I would think feeding them from a bowl might generate couch-potato frogs in mass. Then again maybe captivity alone does that, as humans are notorious for overfeeding their pets in many cases.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

viper69 said:


> I was wondering the same things as well.
> 
> I would think it would be more interesting to watch them hunt. While I don't know how much energy they expend in hunting, I would think feeding them from a bowl might generate couch-potato frogs in mass. Then again maybe captivity alone does that, as humans are notorious for overfeeding their pets in many cases.


I know that I personally have definitely developed a 'bowl-feeding" gut!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Dane said:


> I know that I personally have definitely developed a 'bowl-feeding" gut!


Preach it, Brother! To paraphrase Dan Cummins - "From the front, I look like I lift weights. From the side, I look like I shouldn't be lifting weights because it's bad for the baby."

Mark


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

viper69 said:


> What is the cardboard for? In lie of using a 3D printed bowl, not exactly common relative to other products, what would you suggest?


The cardboard seems to keep them (termites) alive longer since the thumbnails can take a while to find them.

Anything that is not too transparent or can't be buried. If the frogs can see through it they try to eat insects from the outside. If they don't figure it out fast they seem to lose interest. I've recently been using the small condiment cups which are a bit deep but work OK when buried.



cam1941 said:


> Thanks... Yeah that's what I've been finding. What sucks is as you've mentioned earlier, the termites are too expensive to go to waste training them to eat out of the bowl.
> 
> I think I should try them again when the frogs are hungrier because that's when they get more aggressive and attack anything that moves.
> 
> I wonder if I should worrying about termites getting loose in the tank.


That is how I got them to finally get into bowl feeding. I had a fruit fly shortage but luckily an abundance of rice flour beetle larvae. The 3D bowl above and hungry frogs was what finally got things working.



Dane said:


> Do you do this just for the bugs that you don't want cruising the viv, or for flies/microfauna as well?


The bowl is for larvae and termites or anything that can quickly disappear into the vivarium floor. They have to "hunt" for everything else. I only feed the larvae and termites once a week at most.


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