# Aratus thriving in South Florida?



## RicktheRarefrogbreeder

Well I was heading on the way to my Uncles tropical plant nursery here in South FLorida and when I went by the field grown bannana and plantian section I saw a a bright blue/green frog jump fon the mulched floor. It might of been a tree frog or something but when I went for a closer look the shape of it's boady was clearly Dendrobate! Finally I caught it and infact it was a green auratus! I showed it to my uncle and he said those frogs been in his property for over 5 years already. And I said "what!" I told him "you know how much I love dart frogs why did'nt you catch them for me and brought them to add to the collection?" he said he felt sorry for them because he thought they where native, I told him these frogs are from South America, he did'nt feel suprised and he begged me to put it back down on the floor so I did. Later that evening I found six auratus around his property and clearly they had to be more. But how did they get there????????? Turns out a few years back there was a reptile and amphibian wholeseller warehouse my uncle said that be for they closed down they dumped a load of "weird" animals in back of the building. I mean you can see day geckos, plated lizzards, curly tailed lizards, golden geckos, various species of tree frogs, snakes, monitor lizards, and iguanids around my uncle's nursery that thrive under the hot and humid condtitions of the shade covered green houses and tropical Florida weather. So that explains how the dart frogs got there. I did not report this to any other organization or the local public because my uncle does not want his frogs bothered! 

Last week I caught two Jackson's Chameleons on top of a avacodo tree...........


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## Julio

wow!! how did they get there is a good question, but with a lot of frog importers down in florida it can be assumed that they leaked from somones facility. Did you take any pics of hte frogs?


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## Scott

Do your Uncle a favor and never tell anyone where he is.

Otherwise you're going to have collectors bothering him day and night.

I doubt your Uncle would be too happy about that.

s


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## Julio

yeah, i bet he woudl be really mad about that. Plus he seems to be really fond of the frogs.


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## AzureFrog

I hope the HR669 supporters don't know or find out about this, that would not be good for us.

Shawn


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## frogfreak

AzureFrog said:


> I hope the HR669 supporters don't know or find out about this, that would not be good for us.
> 
> Shawn


Yep

That's why species get banned. It only took 12 Starlings and now North America is infested with them competing with native birds.

Glenn


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## Philsuma

Rick,

Very interesting.

Get some pics on here please.....those _Jacksoni_ too.


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## frogparty

frogfreak said:


> Yep
> 
> That's why species get banned. It only took 12 Starlings and now North America is infested with them competing with native birds.
> 
> Glenn


Ive gotten quite good with a blow gun thanks to starlings and bullfrogs!


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## batrachiophyle

yikes! this _could _very well be a nasty mark against the hobby, as well as ammunition for HR669 supporters. but.... only if _Osteopilus septentrionalis_ [cuban tree frog] doesn't get to the small _D. auratus _population first!


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## frogfreak

frogparty said:


> Ive gotten quite good with a blow gun thanks to starlings and bullfrogs!


Funny

We average about 50 starlings a year and over 150 sparrows. My aim is getting better and better

Nobody panic..... It's legal


They drive away the native birds that are trying to nest.

Glenn


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## GSXR_MURRHEE

That's one of the reasons I love living in FLorida... all the exotic species you can see. Unfortunatly it's also one of the bad things, since so many escaped/released animals can survive so easily.


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## Julio

i wonder how many invasive species are now in the US from animal mishandling of the undustry


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## frogfreak

Julio said:


> i wonder how many invasive species are now in the US from animal mishandling of the undustry


I've seen a lot of shows regarding the problems Florida is having. Thank God for winter.

Glenn


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## Nate

The frogs are making a come back! I think this is amazing that they obviously have a nice breeding family going on... other then that it's bad news for us as others have stated because of that dumb law they are trying to pace.


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## frogfreak

Peace said:


> The frogs are making a come back! I think this is amazing that they obviously have a nice breeding family going on... other then that it's bad news for us as others have stated because of that dumb law they are trying to pace.


Peace

I don't mean to be an alarmist.

This is not a good thing! They don't belong in Florida. The laws are not dumb. They're there for a reason. Who know's what could happen if they established themselves in the Florida area. Florida has enough problems allready. They could upset the natural ecosystem even more. This is just one more reason to ban PDF's in areas that could support them year round.

Glenn


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## thedude

frogfreak said:


> Peace
> 
> I don't mean to be an alarmist.
> 
> This is not a good thing! They don't belong in Florida. The laws are not dumb. They're there for a reason. Who know's what could happen if they established themselves in the Florida area. Florida has enough problems allready. They could upset the natural ecosystem even more. This is just one more reason to ban PDF's in areas that could support them year round.
> 
> Glenn


just what i was going to say. its really too bad someone did that. instead of doing your uncle a favor do floridas wildlife a favor and start collecting those animals. i love herps as much as anyone but this is terrible.


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## Philsuma

First of all, before the alarm gets out of hand.......I really doubt there is a sustaining population of any Dendrobatid frog in Florida.

This is the first time I have ever heard of this...as well as the Jacksons, and I am pretty up on all the Florida Invasive herps.


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## frogfreak

thedude said:


> just what i was going to say. its really too bad someone did that. instead of doing your uncle a favor do floridas wildlife a favor and start collecting those animals. i love herps as much as anyone but this is terrible.


I can understand the OP getting excited. I would too. Someone needs to call the ministry of environment and do something about this ASAP. Sorry! I don't know what the agency is called in the States. If it becomes a big problem say goodbye to your darts.

Where's the DB gods here. I may be off base but I don't think so.

Glenn


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## RarePlantBroker

frogfreak said:


> Peace
> 
> I don't mean to be an alarmist.
> 
> This is not a good thing! They don't belong in Florida. The laws are not dumb. They're there for a reason. Who know's what could happen if they established themselves in the Florida area. Florida has enough problems allready. They could upset the natural ecosystem even more. This is just one more reason to ban PDF's in areas that could support them year round.
> 
> Glenn


Glenn,

Part of the original post was the surprise that these frogs were surviving there at all. Everything we (on this board and others) "know" about Dendrobatid frogs is that they can't survive temp.'s in the upper 90's in summer and drops into the 40's or lower in the winter--and yet they are apparantly surviving in those conditions in this instance.
While there are a number of problem invasive species in Florida, the vast majority of problem herps are confined to extreme South Florida (this state's weather and ecosystems vary immensely over the 300+ miles from South to North. 
For example, iguanas overrun many areas in South Florida, but are rarely seen North of Martin county--due to regular winter temps into the 30's--which kills them. This is not a state-wide problem, but a local (county) problem--and should be handled as such--not with nationwide legislation such as house bill 669.
This is no different than saying that people in Canada shouldn't be allowed to raise dog breeds like huskies--because they could be set free and survive in the wild to the detriment of local wildlife.

Alasdair


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## jubjub47

Philsuma said:


> First of all, before the alarm gets out of hand.......I really doubt there is a sustaining population of any Dendrobatid frog in Florida.
> 
> This is the first time I have ever heard of this...as well as the Jacksons, and I am pretty up on all the Florida Invasive herps.


I can't really come up with a reason that the Jacksons wouldn't do ok. I know that veiled's and oustalets have been spotted pretty regularly in Florida. I wouldn't be surprised if many other chameleons don't call Florida home these days as well.


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## Philsuma

jubjub47 said:


> I can't really come up with a reason that the Jacksons wouldn't do ok. I know that veiled's and oustalets have been spotted pretty regularly in Florida. I wouldn't be surprised if many other chameleons don't call Florida home these days as well.


_Chamaeleo calyptratus _is the only established Cham in Florida. I've seen and caught over 2 dozen myself.

I personally tracked down a rumored _Chamaeleo lateralis_ sighting and info as well but could not verify this.

_C. Jacksoni_ needs a semi montane habitat without the heat. HI and SoCal are the comforting biomes that they require. FLorida is not suitable for _most_ chameleons.

There _is_ a _C Paradlis_ rumor though....

but

Back to Dendrobatid frogs....same thing.....in a nutshell.....Too hot.


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## Knowledge

Geez, that is tough news to hear man. I live down here in South Florida and I've myself have seen some tripped out animals which is kind of cool for the eye to see, like when I first moved down here I didn't know too much what was native or not and what consequences they have if good or bad. For example, the first iguana I saw living out here was amazing for one coming from Chicago all my life. I even caught one but escaped (see accidents occurr like this and may cause problems to the ecosystem, fortunately for me it all ready lived out here, to my experience it even laid eggs which didn't hatch though.) As time went on I find out they didn't belong down here and were causing problems I won't get into, but now good luck trying to remove them it's what it is and to hear now that a type of dart frog is out here woe! as cool as it may sound and one wonders what does it eat? Is it toxic? How is it thriving? It's nice but in reality what is this going to lead to? I hope positive? Not to many people seem to have them as pets down here that I know and I sure would like to keep them, but as I read hope they don't get banned because of this if someone finds out it's causing harm in some way(please, always hoping for the positive!) Now if the dart is down here I sure will be looking out to see hopefully a positive outcome!


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## frogfreak

RarePlantBroker said:


> Glenn,
> 
> Part of the original post was the surprise that these frogs were surviving there at all. Everything we (on this board and others) "know" about Dendrobatid frogs is that they can't survive temp.'s in the upper 90's in summer and drops into the 40's or lower in the winter--and yet they are apparantly surviving in those conditions in this instance.
> While there are a number of problem invasive species in Florida, the vast majority of problem herps are confined to extreme South Florida (this state's weather and ecosystems vary immensely over the 300+ miles from South to North.
> For example, iguanas overrun many areas in South Florida, but are rarely seen North of Martin county--due to regular winter temps into the 30's--which kills them. This is not a state-wide problem, but a local (county) problem--and should be handled as such--not with nationwide legislation such as house bill 669.
> This is no different than saying that people in Canada shouldn't be allowed to raise dog breeds like huskies--because they could be set free and survive in the wild to the detriment of local wildlife.
> 
> Alasdair


Actually there are problems with wild dogs here in Canada. They are regularly hunted down and killed in Alberta and other provinces. They have been known to attack cattle and children. Animals can't adapt to their surroundings? We don't all keep Huskies because the summers can have excessive heat 95+ humidity.That's not to good for a Husky. It's no different then upper NY. The winters can be brutal too. We have fish in our rivers that couldn't possibly survive our climate? Why is that? They're tropical or maybe not?

Makes you wonder?

Glenn


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## batrachiophyle

all very interesting discussion. the only invasive i'm really knowledgeable enough to speak on in FL [as my home is about as far away from FL as one can get in the lower 48] is _O. septentrionalis_... a super prolific, and brutally durable / hardy Hylid species with a huge appetite for native Hylids [and, anything else which moves, and can fit into it's mouth, of course.]

i've heard, and maybe someone else could chime in on this who has more information, that native species such as _H. cinerea_, and _H. squirella_, among MANY other native Hylids, and Bufos... have all but disappeared in certain locations / amongst certain populations... 

i actually used to keep the species, and they are most certainly every bit as awesome a frog as they're cracked up to be [at least judging the creature solely in raw terms of success as an animal] but i got rid of my trio for obvious reasons. this animal gets huge, too... easily the same SVL and weight as _L. caerulea_, and other large Hylids. i would imagine that this trend will unfortunately only get much worse as well.


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## RarePlantBroker

frogfreak said:


> Actually there are problems with wild dogs here in Canada. They are regularly hunted down and killed in Alberta and other provinces. They have been known to attack cattle and children. Animals can't adapt to their surroundings? We don't all keep Huskies because the summers can have excessive heat 95+ humidity.That's not to good for a Husky. It's no different then upper NY. The winters can be brutal too. We have fish in our rivers that couldn't possibly survive our climate? Why is that? They're tropical or maybe not?
> 
> Makes you wonder?
> 
> Glenn



Glenn,

I didn't mean to imply that everyone in Canada owns a husky, any more than I said that everyone in Florida owns reptiles. 
You've actually made my point here. The point is that animals DO escape, and that the DO BECOME FERAL. The only difference is that no one is trying to pass legislation prohibiting your legal ability to own a dog. If we want to discuss problem animals, the biggest danger to fauna anywhere is a feral "house" cat. Yet, in the United States, we are to "civilized" to hunt and erradicate "cute and fuzzy" animals that the ASPCA and the Humane Society consider as "pets". BTW--Humane Society US is the sponsor of HR669.
There are a vast number of introduced species in Florida that cause real problems. The biggest pest are the mosquito species (native to Africa and Asia) that have been here for several hundred years that our tax dollars spend billions to control every year. 
Feral pigs have become a problem throughout much of North America, and have adapted to living in a range of environments. 
The point is that mosquitoes' eggs can go dormant through cold winters, and the pigs are genetically suited to survive them. 
However, after the second freeze we had throughout much of Florida this winter, I found a number of introduced frogs/toads dead from exposure (species much hardier than Dendrobatids).
So, the possibility of any PDF becoming established here, and becoming a nuisance, is about as likely as my odds of winning the lotto this weekend.

Alasdair


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## Paul G

Sadly I hardly ever see _H. cinerea_ and _H. squirella_ around urban areas anymore. You can still sometimes find them in larger number in wild areas. I used to see dozens of _H. cinerea_ outside my house every night in the summer but now I only see GIANT _O. septentrionalis_. I always wonder what native species might be bulging out on the Cuban's side when I see huge females.

I have kept _O. septentrionalis_ in the past as well and when I had a unknown disease take out my entire collection it survived.




batrachiophyle said:


> all very interesting discussion. the only invasive i'm really knowledgeable enough to speak on in FL [as my home is about as far away from FL as one can get in the lower 48] is _O. septentrionalis_... a super prolific, and brutally durable / hardy Hylid species with a huge appetite for native Hylids [and, anything else which moves, and can fit into it's mouth, of course.]
> 
> i've heard, and maybe someone else could chime in on this who has more information, that native species such as _H. cinerea_, and _H. squirella_, among MANY other native Hylids, and Bufos... have all but disappeared in certain locations / amongst certain populations...
> 
> i actually used to keep the species, and they are most certainly every bit as awesome a frog as they're cracked up to be [at least judging the creature solely in raw terms of success as an animal] but i got rid of my trio for obvious reasons. this animal gets huge, too... easily the same SVL and weight as _L. caerulea_, and other large Hylids. i would imagine that this trend will unfortunately only get much worse as well.


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## frogfreak

RarePlantBroker said:


> Glenn,
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that everyone in Canada owns a husky, any more than I said that everyone in Florida owns reptiles.
> You've actually made my point here. The point is that animals DO escape, and that the DO BECOME FERAL. The only difference is that no one is trying to pass legislation prohibiting your legal ability to own a dog. If we want to discuss problem animals, the biggest danger to fauna anywhere is a feral "house" cat. Yet, in the United States, we are to "civilized" to hunt and erradicate "cute and fuzzy" animals that the ASPCA and the Humane Society consider as "pets". BTW--Humane Society US is the sponsor of HR669.
> There are a vast number of introduced species in Florida that cause real problems. The biggest pest are the mosquito species (native to Africa and Asia) that have been here for several hundred years that our tax dollars spend billions to control every year.
> Feral pigs have become a problem throughout much of North America, and have adapted to living in a range of environments.
> The point is that mosquitoes' eggs can go dormant through cold winters, and the pigs are genetically suited to survive them.
> However, after the second freeze we had throughout much of Florida this winter, I found a number of introduced frogs/toads dead from exposure (species much hardier than Dendrobatids).
> So, the possibility of any PDF becoming established here, and becoming a nuisance, is about as likely as my odds of winning the lotto this weekend.
> 
> Alasdair


No offence taken to the Husky remark. By the way they are beautifull. I wish I could have one but it's just to hot here in the summer. You've made my point. Where I live you can't own a pitbull or a ferret or a Boa or a python. Cats are being trapped and destroyed as well. They are tired of escapes and the problems associated with them. This kind or stuff just gives the powers at be to say you CAN'T own that either! Most of the problems in our waters are brought in by shipping. Nobody will say no to that. That's MONEY!

Glenn


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## batrachiophyle

gothaicus said:


> Sadly I hardly ever see _H. cinerea_ and _H. squirella_ around urban areas anymore. You can still sometimes find them in larger number in wild areas. I used to see dozens of _H. cinerea_ outside my house every night in the summer but now I only see GIANT _O. septentrionalis_. I always wonder what native species might be bulging out on the Cuban's side when I see huge females.
> 
> I have kept _O. septentrionalis_ in the past as well and when I had a unknown disease take out my entire collection it survived.


yep.. sounds similar to all the other stories i've been hearing from down that way. sad... the smaller, indigenous Hylids are very unlikely to ever rebound in any environment alongside _O. septentrionalis_. there's competition in the water with the tads, and then if they do actually make it through morphing, they have to share their land environment with Godzilla Frog, too.


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## markpulawski

It's way too dry here all winter long for darts to sustain themselves outside of a nursery or grove that gets watered on a very regular basis, this would keep this population on a captive island. Pretty sure an Auratus will never eat a Burrowing Owl, I for one hope they thrive on your Uncles "farm".
mark


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## Julio

Phil, 
HI its just as hot as Florida, where the Jacksons are established on Oahu.


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## Ed

Just a thought, why wouldn't auratus be able to survive the heat/cold/dry through microhabitat exploitation via leaflitter, surface cover and/or burrows?

Ed


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## frogfreak

Ed said:


> Just a thought, why wouldn't auratus be able to survive the heat/cold/dry through microhabitat exploitation via leaflitter, surface cover and/or burrows?
> 
> Ed


That's what I'm saying as well. An animal will do anything to try and survive. We have a huge problem with Sea Lamprey in our fresh waters latching on to salmon and other fish. 

NOTE: Sea Lamprey were not worried about because they were salt water species. Not anymore. Thay adapted to freshwater and all but wiped out Salmon stocks (once a saltwater species). By the way Salmon are not Native either. Man put them into the great lakes and....well.....they almost took out native lake trout competing for food.

Glenn


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## markpulawski

Perhpas in undeveloped central Florida there would be enough contiguous habitat that would allow them to estavate in the winter and spread somewhat. My experience with the level of development in most areas and the extreme dryness of winter it would take a perfect storm of circumstances for Dendrobatid frogs to spread outside of a microhabitat that is conducive to their becoming established.
Cuban Tree frogs have shown an amazing ability to adapt to different environs, could D Auratus do the same, perhaps in a more limited manner yes. Between Cane Toads and Cuban Tree's being well established here I just can't imagine a scenario that would create additional problems with the addition of D Auratus. I would guess that if those Auratus did not have this agricultural endeavor nearby where they were originally released they never would have survived their first season in this state.


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## MrGerbik

Nature finds a way it seems. I live in NJ, and in a town near me called Edgewater we now have a wild population of Quaker PArrots. I have seen them myself as well. They build huge nests. NJ has winters often in the teens or singles. How are these birds surviving?

YouTube - The Wild Parrots of Edgewater, NJ

Here is a vid somone took of them. Very interesting thing going on here


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## Julio

those parrots were first established in Brooklyn, at the Brooklyn college campus with 10 brids that escaped from a local pet store and have since spread around the NYC metro area. There more than 1k of them at BK college alone.


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## Philsuma

My thoughts on certain invasive species in Florida:

1. *Veiled Chameleon*: Physically imposing large and dorsally compressed with a high casque. Capable of mositure retention and made to resist snake predation - due to the casque. Very hardy and able to dig and overwinter in the sand. Agressive and fecund - clutch size of over 30 eggs! Able to ingest a multitude of prey

2. *Nile Moniter*: Physically imposing and aggressive. Very fast and able to ingest everything as well. Marine lifestyle and habitat so it is very hard to trap and eradicate. Like sharks...they will detect your presence and see you long before you see them. Try binoculars. I don't know their clutch size but I bet it's on the large side.When you survive amongst some of the most efficient killers in the world - Nile Crocodiles.....you gotta be tough!
These guys are in Cape Coral Florida and coming soon to the other coast...Boca and Ft L.

3. *Cuban Tree frog and Knight anole*: Again....constructed along the same model. Fierce and aggressive. Eats anything that fits in it's mouth and then some....birds...xmas tree light bulbs. Large clutch size (frog) .

and on and on...but do you now get an idea why Dendrobatids are never going to establish themselves here?

They are just not that "tough".

They need a much more stable biome with regards to humidity and Temperature. South Florida is actually a very "harsh" environment. Very hot and sometimes cold. Very dry mostly and only occasionally wet.

Same with the _Jacksoni_,Juilo...Florida is too hot and too dry for them. They need cooler temps and constant windswept dew and humidity.....and that's not Florida.

Some thoughts.....


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## dj98ram

Excellent points Phil. I don't see Dendrobatids being a hardy enough species to be able to not only live in the Florida ecosystems, but also adapt in a relatively short period of time (5 years according to OP) to be able to live there. I don't doubt the OP saw these frogs, although pics would be great, but I question if it's a sustained population.


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## james67

i see that the predation factor has not been mentioned either. in the wild PDFs are predated on mainly by single species of snake, because of the relationships the have with other animals and the poison they produce. this being said is it difficult to believe that since the food items that give the frogs their toxic protection (which instinctually drives predators away in their natural environment) is no longer present (to my knowledge) in florida, that they would have a much harder time at surviving and more importantly producing offspring (which is relatively low in number for dendrobatids anyway) 

extreme temp variability
small clutch size
high probability of predation
unpredictable flooding of large areas 
etc etc.

likelihood of survival is extremely low.

anyone have a frog jump out of a tank and found it soon after as a dried mummified looking carcass?? thats what i expect would happen in only a few hours in most parts of FL.

james


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## Ed

Philsuma said:


> and on and on...but do you now get an idea why Dendrobatids are never going to establish themselves here?
> 
> They are just not that "tough".
> 
> They need a much more stable biome with regards to humidity and Temperature. South Florida is actually a very "harsh" environment. Very hot and sometimes cold. Very dry mostly and only occasionally wet.
> 
> Same with the _Jacksoni_,Juilo...Florida is too hot and too dry for them. They need cooler temps and constant windswept dew and humidity.....and that's not Florida.
> 
> Some thoughts.....



I don't know Phil... its pretty easy to dismiss it but with respect to the heat.. its pretty hot in a lot of thier home country at least part of the year. 
I am aware of at least one European that lets his auratus cool down to the 40s/50s in the winter until it warms up again. This would be similar to the frogs exploiting burrows in the winter.. 

In the regions where auratus are native, droughts do occur and the frogs move towards moister habitats.. there are a lot of swampy areas as well as canals, streams etc that would prevent them from having to deal with dry areas. And this doesn't even count areas where people routinely use sprinklers. 

I think where we might see the real limiting factor maybe in tadpole deposition sites.. they are known to use discarded trash (like cans and bottles) but suitable habitat will be lacking in this respect. 
In any case it will take a couple of decades to see if the population is stable.. 

Ed


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## markpulawski

I agree with the statements about heat, it can be monster hot in the rain forest and the animals can find a place to escape extremes, however acceptable habitat for Dendrobatids is much narrower than so many invasive species here. I just can not foresee any scenario where an island population of Auratus would pose a risk.


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## dom

also note that were these guys were found was a tropical plant nursery growing bananas and plantains , so the enviroment there is being made similar to the tropics with the moisture. When they get into other parts of florida and are in drought or lack or rain like it is most of the year they would not have a great chance of survival.


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## Philsuma

Ricktherarefrogbreeder......

Please update your thread. Any comments on various theories?

Can you get a pic or 2 ?


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## TonyT

I agree that a few pics would be good. 

TonyT


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## JustinF

Too hot and dry in Florida? 

EES5/EH105: Florida Climate Data

Compared to the attached data from Manaus, then add the microclimate created by the nursery... seems quite plausible to me.


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## JustinF

Here is Miami for comparisons sake.


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## Philsuma

oh...anything is possible.

I know where there are 4 different species of Monkey....and 1 Baboon that are established (reproducing) all in areas that are unlikely to expand for numerous reasons.

Could someone "farm" or otherwise "stock" an area and have success in managing it?...Sure...that's exactly how the Veiled Chameleons got started.Think Marijuana farmers tending their "secret location in the wilderness" crop and there you have it- with a lot of species.

I posted my doubts after seeing a lot of alarmist postings, some of which demanded action be taken, and a black eye for the dart frog hobby was iminent ect ect.......all that alarmist talk is unwarranted.

Those charts are fine and all, but you have 3-4 Floridians that posted on this thread and said.....uh...unlikely.

and then you have the OP not attending to his thread and all the questions ect.


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## JustinF

Im sure if you look further north in Florida the temps get lower in the winter. Do they get too cold, I have no idea. I've not experimented with the temperature range of the frogs. I did read an account by Sean @ Herptologic saying he had a shipment of frogs actually freeze and are now doing well after a good slow thaw. I'm not saying the people from Florida are wrong or right, but the charts tell you actual values, not what people feel the numbers are.


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## thedude

it may be unlikely they would spread and flourish...but why take the chance? are we not learning from our past (and present!) mistakes??


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## iljjlm

If they survive outside of this plant nursery in FL does it matter? I don't believe that we should purposely release them here. I am all for a bill similar to the HR669 to stop the spread of invasive species, but I don't think that D. auratus would be considered an invasive species. This frog was introduced to Hawaii in 1932. Columbia did a study on them in 2001 Invasion Biology Introduced Species Summary Project - Columbia University

Quote "While the potential always exists for changes to occur that could promote a population explosion, the chances of this happening in the Hawaii populations of D. auratus is probably small. To answer the question of whether or not this species will become a problem in the future requires information about what is limiting the current population, and the ability to make predictions about the likelhood of future changes that may alter population size. Any population boom due to initial ecological release would already have been observed, and if anything this species may be accumulating competitors and predators over time, thus further reducing the likelihood of an explosion. Compared to the introduced Eleutherodactylus species, which within a decade from their introduction are already regarded as a serious threat to ecosystems and industries in Hawaii, D. auratus is not a high priority species of concern and should not be controlled."

I live as far north on the Atlantic coast of Florida as possible. I have only been in the Miami area a handful of times. Would it be possible for these frogs to live in some parts of FL. Probably. Remember
"No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way." (Dr. Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park).

Dave


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## thedude

even if they didnt become "invasive" they are still a non native species that shouldnt be there. it would be much better to keep the ecosystem natural. changes could always occur to make them invasive as well.

nice quote, was thinking the same thing earlier!




iljjlm said:


> If they survive outside of this plant nursery in FL does it matter? I don't believe that we should purposely release them here. I am all for a bill similar to the HR669 to stop the spread of invasive species, but I don't think that D. auratus would be considered an invasive species. This frog was introduced to Hawaii in 1932. Columbia did a study on them in 2001 Invasion Biology Introduced Species Summary Project - Columbia University
> 
> Quote "While the potential always exists for changes to occur that could promote a population explosion, the chances of this happening in the Hawaii populations of D. auratus is probably small. To answer the question of whether or not this species will become a problem in the future requires information about what is limiting the current population, and the ability to make predictions about the likelhood of future changes that may alter population size. Any population boom due to initial ecological release would already have been observed, and if anything this species may be accumulating competitors and predators over time, thus further reducing the likelihood of an explosion. Compared to the introduced Eleutherodactylus species, which within a decade from their introduction are already regarded as a serious threat to ecosystems and industries in Hawaii, D. auratus is not a high priority species of concern and should not be controlled."
> 
> I live as far north on the Atlantic coast of Florida as possible. I have only been in the Miami area a handful of times. Would it be possible for these frogs to live in some parts of FL. Probably. Remember
> "No, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way." (Dr. Ian Malcolm from Jurassic Park).
> 
> Dave


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

maybe this thread should be deleted or locked so nothing happens to these frogs. Just so this doesnt cause alot of attention. I'm glad your uncle likes having them around.


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## paulrust

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> maybe this thread should be deleted or locked so nothing happens to these frogs. Just so this doesnt cause alot of attention. I'm glad your uncle likes having them around.


YES!!!!!
Please delete this thread so HR669 can't get traction with it.


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

paulrust said:


> YES!!!!!
> Please delete this thread so HR669 can't get traction with it.


My thoughts exactly. THis kinda thing can be Dendro's little secrete. If this gets out, this will cause problems for the dart frog community. Exspeacially those who live in Florida.


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## NathanB

i think Phils right, you guys are over reacting.


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## RecycledAgain

This is silly, We have gone from an unsubstantiated rumor to a full blown invasive outbreak. 
While I concede it may possible to have a few sightings of unconfirmed aratus, the odds of this actually being accurate are improbable at best. 

Dan


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

I am not the one over reacting. I just dont want to see the people of HR669 try to use this against us. They are the ones who *will* over react and make a big deal out of it. We can never be too safe. Plus reptile dealers will want to run around there picking them up to make free money. We all know how the news is and how they over react over anything to try to get the attention of the public. If they were to say poison dart frogs are roaming free in Florida. All the dim witts who dont know a thing or 2 about them would freak out. Then people would say your children could die by touching one, same with your pets. Just because we know a thing or 2 about them here, doesnt mean the general public knows anything. If it has Poison in its name, it would be on the news.Its something that we dont need to happen. Thats what I am trying to say.


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## frogfreak

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> I am not the one over reacting. I just dont want to see the people of HR669 try to use this against us. They are the ones who *will* over react and make a big deal out of it. We can never be too safe. Plus reptile dealers will want to run around there picking them up to make free money. We all know how the news is and how they over react over anything to try to get the attention of the public. If they were to say poison dart frogs are roaming free in Florida. All the dim witts who dont know a thing or 2 about them would freak out. Then people would say your children could die by touching one, same with your pets. Just because we know a thing or 2 about them here, doesnt mean the general public knows anything. If it has Poison in its name, it would be on the news.Its something that we dont need to happen. Thats what I am trying to say.


This is a good point IMO. There were 3 species of Phylobates banned in British Columbia this year because someone in the government was watching a TV show that said they were poisonous. Not trying to be an alarmist. Trying to be a realist.

No joke


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## NathanB

they are much more likely to get banned from being in HI than some dudes plantation. That HR669 thing was also way overblown.


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## sNApple

frogfreak said:


> This is a good point IMO. There were 3 species of Phylobates banned in British Columbia this year because someone in the government was watching a TV show that said they were poisonous. Not trying to be an alarmist. Trying to be a realist.
> 
> No joke


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## JustinF

frogfreak said:


> This is a good point IMO. There were 3 species of Phylobates banned in British Columbia this year because someone in the government was watching a TV show that said they were poisonous. Not trying to be an alarmist. Trying to be a realist.
> 
> No joke


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## FrogNick

Green and black dart-poison frogs have been introduced to Oahu, Hawaii, and as such are considered an introduced or invasive species. Steps to eradicate these animals on this island are recommended.


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## Philsuma

FrogNick said:


> Green and black dart-poison frogs have been introduced to Oahu, Hawaii, and as such are considered an introduced or invasive species. Steps to eradicate these animals on this island are recommended.


This "news" is probably older than you are.....it's been 30 plus years since they were deliberately introduced to try to control a mosquito population.

I think the eradication efforts your are reffering to are for_ another_ invasive species...this one much "newer" and undisputedly more "bothersome"

The P.R Coqui.......


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## iljjlm

FrogNick said:


> Green and black dart-poison frogs have been introduced to Oahu, Hawaii, and as such are considered an introduced or invasive species. Steps to eradicate these animals on this island are recommended.


If you back up to page 5 of this post, I have posted a link about this. And like Phil said it is other frogs that are considered invasive and need to be eradicated.
Dave


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## andyoconnor83

I think that the idea that they could spread is ridiculous for the reasons posted by others. I do believe they could be present and even thriving in a small plantation type area, moving into or nearer the green houses during harsh weather. If they are growing bananas and plantains there, and have tropical plant nurseries, the property is basically a giant vivarium with huge temp and humidity gradients for the animals to take advantage of, and if there aren't any cane toads or cubans to eat them, they have a chance at establishing themselves on this property, but I don't think they would make it off the property successfully.


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## Nate

Sorry to bump and old topic, but has it occurred to any of you like it just did to me, that these could be escapees from the hurricanes? I know many wild and exotic animals escaped and established themselves in the wild... perhaps these are too.

Sorry if anyone already mentioned that.


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## Philsuma

I was just discussing this with someone at the NJ meeting on Sat....

While it is_ POSSIBLE _that there is sustaining population of _Auratus_ in Florida....it is highly unlikely. The temperatures and terrain are not suitable.

While I am FAR from a expert or even an academic....Invasive animals, specifically Florida herps interest me greatly.

All of the literature to include everything by Dr. Kenneth Krysko, scouring the Herpetological Journals and papers on geography, give no reference to any released Dendrobatid or sustaining population in Florida.

Maybe this was a one time release? 

The fact that the OP has not responded is pretty telling IMO.

I think the chance of seeing a Skunk Ape in Florida is more likey than an_ Auratus._


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## calvinyhob

Philsuma said:


> I think the chance of seeing a Skunk Ape in Florida is more likey than an_ Auratus._


You havent seen him yet????


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## Philsuma

calvinyhob said:


> You havent seen him yet????


I think I did....once.....at 330 am on Duval street or was it the French Quarter during Mardi Gras.

Well....either way, I'm not sure I _saw_ it but I'm pretty sure I smelled it.


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## Ed

Philsuma said:


> I think I did....once.....at 330 am on Duval street or was it the French Quarter during Mardi Gras.
> 
> Well....either way, I'm not sure I _saw_ it but I'm pretty sure I smelled it.


Are you sure that wasn't me getting rid of too much tequila? 

Ed


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## albovar1678

update?


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