# mixing spieces at zoo



## Youngherp420 (May 3, 2011)

So today i went to the zoo and there was this posion dart frog tank, its was about a 40 gallon breeder and was not well planted. I saw 2 D. azureus, 2 D. auratus, Panamanian Green & Black , 2,D. leucomelas and 1 D. tinctorius, Brazilian Cobalts. I would think the poeple creating these tanks would know about mixing and about size and grouping.I dont understand how poeple dothis and wouldnt the poeple creating these tanks be some sort of herptologist?


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## Joseph26 (Jan 26, 2010)

It is my understanding that zoo's destroy all eggs and tadpoles found in these tanks to prevent hybridization, and if the tanks were heavily planted visitors wouldn't be able to see the frogs. They are there for display purposes, not for the frogs comfort or to prompt breeding. Breeders would be kept in the back and not be the animals on display. correct me if I'm wrong


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Be careful as there are some zookeepers around the board....

The simple truth is, some zoos seem to do it right and some zoos seem to do it wrong.... You should also keep in mind that, in many instances, zoos have frogs for different reasons than hobbyists. Zoos create habitats intended to allow people to see the animals. If you can't see the animal, why would you pay to go to the zoo? I hate to say there's a double-standard, but... from a pragmatic standpoint there's a little bit of a double-standard. My biggest issue is the message this may send to the "average" hobbyist about what proper husbandry is.



Joseph26 said:


> It is my understanding that zoo's destroy all eggs and tadpoles found in these tanks to prevent hybridization, and if the tanks were heavily planted visitors wouldn't be able to see the frogs. They are there for display purposes, not for the frogs comfort or to prompt breeding. Breeders would be kept in the back and not be the animals on display. correct me if I'm wrong


You're wrong.... At least in some instances. There have been a few threads started around the board of pictures from zoos with obvious hybrids in their collections.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Oh man! Are you talking about the sorry excuse for a dart frog exhibit at the Central Park Zoo? That place makes me nutS!!!! 
I would donate my free time to:
A) Build a proper vivarium for their 3+ species (kept together in a paltry spag moss n pothos viv)
B)Care and feed their frogs (who quiver all day under their sad, sad stick)
C)Deliver an educational explanation, for any of the above mentioned steps, to any of the staff or other individuals

I understand the zoos position on the frogs, being for display. Ive also seen many dead animals come out of that rainforest exhibit. They dont care for their animals as much as we would like to think. There are other FREE zoos that have better frog vivs. The national zoo being one of them.


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## Peekskillfrogger (Jul 10, 2011)

mordoria said:


> Oh man! Are you talking about the sorry excuse for a dart frog exhibit at the Central Park Zoo? That place makes me nutS!!!!
> I would donate my free time to:
> A) Build a proper vivarium for their 3+ species (kept together in a paltry spag moss n pothos viv)
> B)Care and feed their frogs (who quiver all day under their sad, sad stick)
> ...




Being from the area, I would kick in to help out with that. Shoot me a pm if you're serious about making that happen .


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

People act like zoos always know best


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I was hoping this would get more interesting. I'm OBVIOUSLY a Zookeeper. I'm kind of keeping my opinion to my self at this point. I want to chime in eventually but I want my response to be well thought out and tactful.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I was at brookfield zoo this sunday. They have a large mixed species tank...just labled blue and black , green and black, bumblebee ect. then there was another tank with smaller forglets... (of mixed species) with a sign bragging that they had been breed there at the zoo. Edit: of different species of froglets together. Don't know if any are hybrids. Thought I should clarify before comments.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I work with the dart frogs at the Tulsa zoo, and I think I can actually say with confident that we have the nicest dart frog set up out there. I mean compared to other zoos that is. We have a large rainforest, and a whole section of it is for dart frogs, out in the open. No tanks or anything. There are lots and lots of nice plants, so it's very nicely planted. There are a couple different species, but we don't try and breed those. In the back we have all our breeders in 10, 20, and 30 gallon tanks.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Do you have any pictures of the exhibit Chris? I'm interested to see how it works with no tanks/enclosures.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Do you have any pictures of the exhibit Chris? I'm interested to see how it works with no tanks/enclosures.


I am envisioning something similar to Omahas henry doorly zoo with the large indoor rainforest. I got to pet a tucan there and had a lemur a few inches from me. I chickened out on petting it though. Best day to go to those types of zoos is on christmas eve. There will be no one there and teh wild life will litteraly come out to greet you.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

D3monic said:


> I am envisioning something similar to Omahas henry doorly zoo with the large indoor rainforest. I got to pet a tucan there and had a lemur a few inches from me. I chickened out on petting it though. Best day to go to those types of zoos is on christmas eve. There will be no one there and teh wild life will litteraly come out to greet you.


Probably best you did, I bet he could bite pretty hard...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

heatfreakk3 said:


> I think I can actually say with confident that we have the nicest dart frog set up out there.


I haven't seen either dart set up, but I know you've got some competition with Ed in that category


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## DARTGUY41 (Aug 13, 2011)

I thought the same thing when I went to Ripley's Aquarium in Myrtle Beach, SC. They had azureus, auratus, and a few others in one poorly designed viv (mostly mud). The intermixing didn't bother me as much because I was sure the aquarium wouldn't pull any eggs. The viv design bothered me a little. It did have a misting system though. The azureus was probably the fattest I have ever seen.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I haven't seen either dart set up, but I know you've got some competition with Ed in that category


Not even close, they have access to funding and materials that kicked my butt... 

Ed


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## 125 (Jun 22, 2011)

I think the only place where ive seen a good healthy frog exhibit wasnt even a zoo but at "Shedd Aquarium".


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

125 said:


> I think the only place where ive seen a good healthy frog exhibit wasnt even a zoo but at "Shedd Aquarium".


I'll be there this Sunday, I'll be sure to snap some pics.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I'll have to check.. I'm not sure if I have any pictures, but I'll be sure to take some next time I can. The only downside to the free roam frogs, is some @$$es or little kids that don't know any better will take some. This is why we have to have LOTS to go out there. It will happen, we can't help it. There are thoughts of putting cameras and such watching the dart frog area. We currently do not have any darts out on exhibit right now, because over the winter mice were actually coming in and eating the dart frogs! So we pulled them all to build out population back up. We just got a big shippment in of auratus, leucs, milky frogs, and walking toads in, so we should be putting all those out soon.


PeanutbuttER said:


> Do you have any pictures of the exhibit Chris? I'm interested to see how it works with no tanks/enclosures.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

While at the zoo, I actually got to hold a few baby lemurs when we were bringing them all inside for the night. They are so cute! He was nibbling a piece of banana from my hand.


D3monic said:


> I am envisioning something similar to Omahas henry doorly zoo with the large indoor rainforest. I got to pet a tucan there and had a lemur a few inches from me. I chickened out on petting it though. Best day to go to those types of zoos is on christmas eve. There will be no one there and teh wild life will litteraly come out to greet you.


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## 125 (Jun 22, 2011)

tclipse said:


> I'll be there this Sunday, I'll be sure to snap some pics.


Thats cool, i wish i could go their again they had some pretty cool exhibits, and their dart frog terrariums are really nice and well planted. the only problem though was that they had some fighting in there azures terrarium but no too aggresive.


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## Youngherp420 (May 3, 2011)

Well this helps to clear it up little but any zookeepers or anyone please help me with understanding this

Now at the philly zoo yesterday I saw thumbnails not sure but I think imitators but it was house with eye lash vipers in them and reading the sign describing vipers they said they eat frogs. It confused me little.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I've heard of some zoos keeping dart frogs with eyelash vipers. I'm interested in hearing what other people think of this. I think the vipers kind of know, not to eat them.. If that makes sense lol. So I don't think there is a problem. That's my opinion though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Youngherp420 said:


> Well this helps to clear it up little but any zookeepers or anyone please help me with understanding this
> 
> Now at the philly zoo yesterday I saw thumbnails not sure but I think imitators but it was house with eye lash vipers in them and reading the sign describing vipers they said they eat frogs. It confused me little.


They should have been R. ventrimaculatus as I don't think they have imitators (and certainly not in 2010). There are several things at play here.. one is the size of a food item, in well fed snakes, small food items may not trigger a feeder reactions. Those snakes were also housed with D. auratus in the past (for close to ten years) without any issues or predation on the frogs. Those snakes are also well fed (to the point, they often refuse food) and (as a species) have a slow metabolism which if they are well fed, also reduces the risk. Somewhere I have a picture of an auratus feeding while sitting on the head of the gold female in that exhibit. 

There are reports from some other institutions where it didn't work well for example there was one report of a eyelash consuming a wild caught pumilio (both died if I remember correctly), and there are reports of them consuming azureus... all because a generic statement of predation on frogs is made, doesn't mean that the snakes will recognize every frog as a food item. This can be seen in a variety of other snakes, when offered food items... for example, it wasn't uncommon for imported adult ball pythons to refuse domestic rats and mice as feeders despite being listed as feeding on rodents in the wild, and recommendations often recommended starting them on live gerbiles... 

Ed


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Ed, I would love to see that picture if you ever find it


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

heatfreakk3 said:


> I'll have to check.. I'm not sure if I have any pictures, but I'll be sure to take some next time I can. The only downside to the free roam frogs, is some @$$es or little kids that don't know any better will take some. This is why we have to have LOTS to go out there. It will happen, we can't help it. There are thoughts of putting cameras and such watching the dart frog area. We currently do not have any darts out on exhibit right now, because over the winter mice were actually coming in and eating the dart frogs! So we pulled them all to build out population back up. We just got a big shippment in of auratus, leucs, milky frogs, and walking toads in, so we should be putting all those out soon.


Just tell them they are deadly poisonous, and put a "warning" sign...


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Wallace Grover said:


> Just tell them they are deadly poisonous, and put a "warning" sign...


We actually did have a sign saying "look but do not touch! These are poisonous frogs!" ect.. Lol. It still does not fool some people who think they are cool and stick one in their pocket.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

tclipse said:


> I'll be there this Sunday, I'll be sure to snap some pics.


 Check out joshsfrogsvideos on YouTube - I was there a couple months back, and posted some videos of exhibits.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Ed, I would love to see that picture if you ever find it


It is one I keep looking for but I haven't been able to find it since we moved here. It is a cool shot. 

Ed


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

heatfreakk3 said:


> We actually did have a sign saying "look but do not touch! These are poisonous frogs!" ect.. Lol. It still does not fool some people who think they are cool and stick one in their pocket.


Not to hijack the OPs thread about poorly kept frogs at zoos, but I keep having this discussion with others at the facilities I work at. Signs do warn off some people when you would rather them not do something ( touch/steal animals, tap on the glass, throw coins in aquariums), but at the same time the signs alert a select few to do the exact opposite of what the signs ask. We still haven't come to a consensus as to which behavior the signs elicit more of.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rhesus Feist said:


> Not to hijack the OPs thread about poorly kept frogs at zoos, but I keep having this discussion with others at the facilities I work at. Signs do warn off some people when you would rather them not do something ( touch/steal animals, tap on the glass, throw coins in aquariums), but at the same time the signs alert a select few to do the exact opposite of what the signs ask. We still haven't come to a consensus as to which behavior the signs elicit more of.


 
If you look at the studies done by institutions on how many people read the graphics it would help indicate which behavior is an issue.. If I remember correctly off the top of my head (and I could be wrong) but less than 20% of people read the graphics for an exhibit so you'll have to take that into account as well. 

Ed


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## ISTHOMS (Jul 29, 2011)

at the little rock zoo, they have what looks like a fourty breeder with like three azureus, two tinctorious cobalts, three auratus, and three leucs. it has only moss and four large broms planted in soaking soil and one, yea only one, cocohut.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ISTHOMS said:


> at the little rock zoo, they have what looks like a fourty breeder with like three azureus, two tinctorious cobalts, three auratus, and three leucs. it has only moss and four large broms planted in soaking soil and one, yea only one, cocohut.


If you reduce or eliminate reproductive resources you limit competition and territoriality in many dendrobatids..... 

Ed


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

mordoria said:


> I understand the zoos position on the frogs, being for display. Ive also seen many dead animals come out of that rainforest exhibit. They dont care for their animals as much as we would like to think. There are other FREE zoos that have better frog vivs. The national zoo being one of them.


Its not about display - its about educating the public into thinking the animals are special and need preserving. Its an important job and so, having a viv where frogs are visible, does seem important.

that being said, I volunteer at our local zoo. Its a crapload smaller than most zoos and I know that makes it a little different but I essentially wriite my own job description - I ask them if I can do something and the answer is almost always yes. The zookeeper staff has offered to take care of my geckos when I go on vacation - they will become education animals for a couple of weeks - so I think Ive become a trusted member of that zoo. I think if you contacted the zoo volunteer coordinator and spoke to them, they might well let you create a vivarium that is appropriate for the frogs, especially if you were able to donate some supplies for that viv. I am guessing they have extra tanks lying around that could be used for those purposes. I'd probably send the volunteer coordinator an email with photos of your vivarium - let them know you are willing to go to orientation if need be.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As for whether an institution cares for it's animals or not is often thrown around but few people understand the process, many institutions have an animal use committee (IACUC) (see Welcome To IACUC) which reviews husbandry and research programs (nutritional, behavioral, enrichment and so forth) for ethical standards and whether or not it meets both internal and external regulatory requirements. 

In addition to those requirements, whenever an institution is evaluated for accredidation (or renewal, or inspected for a followup) by AZA, they have to turn over thier records including mortality for review before they are approved for accrediation or reaccrediated. In addition, if they are AZA accrediated they utilize either ZIMS or ISIS for tracking of thier animals and excessive mortality is documented there as well.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Ed said:


> As for whether an institution cares for it's animals or not is often thrown around but few people understand the process, many institutions have an animal use committee (IACUC) (see Welcome To IACUC) which reviews husbandry and research programs (nutritional, behavioral, enrichment and so forth) for ethical standards and whether or not it meets both internal and external regulatory requirements.
> 
> In addition to those requirements, whenever an institution is evaluated for accredidation (or renewal, or inspected for a followup) by AZA, they have to turn over thier records including mortality for review before they are approved for accrediation or reaccrediated. In addition, if they are AZA accrediated they utilize either ZIMS or ISIS for tracking of thier animals and excessive mortality is documented there as well.


Since, we're talking about zoos, Ed, i have a question for you [and those who can answer], do zoos still go by the AZA Caresheets [ AZA manuals ]??? If so, what do they use for the animals that dont have a care manual on the AZA website?


sorry to hijack...


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## ISTHOMS (Jul 29, 2011)

Ed, what exactly do you meen?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

boabab95 said:


> Since, we're talking about zoos, Ed, i have a question for you [and those who can answer], do zoos still go by the AZA Caresheets [ AZA manuals ]??? If so, what do they use for the animals that dont have a care manual on the AZA website?
> 
> 
> sorry to hijack...



The studbooks or manuals are guidelines for animals being worked within a breeding program to ensure that the animals in specific breeding programs are cared for in as similar method as possible to reduce adaptation to captivity in conjunction to a breeding program designed to maximize gene diversity for 100-500 years depending on the diversity in the founders. 

Species that are not being managed via a studbook are maintained by instutional standards which are typically set up before an animal is aquired and are presented to a Animal Aquisition/Disposition Committee that reviews the proposal for that species to see if it can be accomedated in the collection. In addition, either curators, keepers or a combination of the two work to develop a plan for the animal in their area (as they know the limitations the building the best), in conjunction with how the animal(s) were housed maintained in the prior institution (if not aquired as a donation or purchase from the public). Often keepers will inquire to other institutions about thier husbandry methods via some specific AZA listserves (the the one for the Lizard Tag or Amphibian Tag), or call institutions that have them and talk to the keepers (I've gotten calls from Europe) or other list serves like the ZooBiology listserve. Often keepers read forums dedicated to those animals like this one, but don't post because they don't want to get flak (much like comments in this thread). 

Does that help clarify it? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ISTHOMS said:


> Ed, what exactly do you meen?


I thought I was pretty clear but if you don't understand about reproductive resources etc, you can start with the following thread 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html 

Ed


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Ed said:


> The studbooks or manuals are guidelines for animals being worked within a breeding program to ensure that the animals in specific breeding programs are cared for in as similar method as possible to reduce adaptation to captivity in conjunction to a breeding program designed to maximize gene diversity for 100-500 years depending on the diversity in the founders.
> 
> Species that are not being managed via a studbook are maintained by instutional standards which are typically set up before an animal is aquired and are presented to a Animal Aquisition/Disposition Committee that reviews the proposal for that species to see if it can be accomedated in the collection. In addition, either curators, keepers or a combination of the two work to develop a plan for the animal in their area (as they know the limitations the building the best), in conjunction with how the animal(s) were housed maintained in the prior institution (if not aquired as a donation or purchase from the public). Often keepers will inquire to other institutions about thier husbandry methods via some specific AZA listserves (the the one for the Lizard Tag or Amphibian Tag), or call institutions that have them and talk to the keepers (I've gotten calls from Europe) or other list serves like the ZooBiology listserve. Often keepers read forums dedicated to those animals like this one, but don't post because they don't want to get flak (much like comments in this thread).
> 
> ...




Yep that definitely clarifies it!!! thanks!


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