# please help! (pics included)



## roadkillkitty (Jul 26, 2006)

My female powder blue has been sick for quite some time now but I just noticed the other day that her one side is swollen out while her other side is shruken in. She eats ok; not as much as she should be but enough to keep herself from starving. For a little while though she wasn't moving or eating much at all so when I started to see her appetite come back I had hope for her but now I'm not sure anymore.

She is in with a male powder blue who seems perfectly healthy and I'd honestly would rather not separate her unless absolutely necessary because when I did before she almost starved herself until I moved her back in with her buddy.

I would really like to try and save her because Bella is one of my favorites. So if anyone at all knows how I cann help her please let me know.




























-Jill-


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

*hmm...*

for starters feed her as much as she'll eat. Make sure your dusting with 2 parts calcium to 1 part vitamin powder (roughly)... and make sure your supplements arent expired. Make sure temps arent to high or to low. If your in the 70's your probably fine there. Also some supplements suck...best to use herpivite and rep-pcal(with d3) other brands often contain to much phosphorus or other compounds that inhibit the absorbtion of the calcium. (or something like that). Only one good dusted feeding per day max though probably, since you dont wanna overdose the frog on supplements. And if the frog gets better scale that back even further to every other feeding or so.


Might try a pedialyte solution or amphibian ringers solution? posts about both can be found on here pretty easily.

Contact a vet....Dr fry at http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com is a dart frog specialist...and if i got the link wrong, his site can be found in the links page of this board

If the other one seems healthy and you have decent place to put it...probaby want to seperate it from the sick one. I'd leave the sick one where it is though so as not to add stress of move on top of illness. Dont fiddle with it, or hang around the tank much if you dont have to...keep any stress at a minimum unless its necesary for treatment.

Other then medications which the vet will cover with you (and im guessing you dont have any on hand yet) thats all i can think of at the moment....if i left anything out im sure someone else will chime in.

Hope things work out for you...i lost my 2 powdered blues awhile back. Went really fast...got skinny and died all in a 2-3 day period, both at same time. That tank will not be getting frogs till its been gutted and bleached.


ps. Your cute.


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## Josh_Leisenring (Jun 19, 2005)

I've noticed that when thinner frogs eat a lot at once, one side will bulge out a bit while the other still appears shrunken. My guess is that the one side is where the stomach is located, and swells as it is filled. Maybe someone else can confirm/deny this for me. Good luck! I hope she gets well.

- Josh


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## roadkillkitty (Jul 26, 2006)

Thanks for all the help guys, oh and the comment, Dave.

I do have metronidazole, baytril, panacur and pedialyte on hand. Should I try and use any of these? 

The temps and everything seem fine to me. 

Oh and that does make sense to me too, Josh.

I'll make sure to keep everyone updated on her progress.

-Jill-


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Jill,

Shotgunning the use of anti-infectives in the absence of a known pathogen can cause as much harm as good. If an infectious agent is present and you are treating with a drug that doesn't work against it, you will not be treating the infection and likely destroying harmless microorganisms, thus allowing the harmful bug more territory to multiply. If no infection is present, application of anti-infectives will once again eliminate helpful or non threatening microbes and offer a niche for a pathogen. Think about how humans respond to broad spectrum antibiotics (gastrointestinal effects, urinary tract infections, etc.). So proper identification of an infectious cause of disease is really helpful in these sorts of situations and ruling out pathogens can be useful as well.

Good luck.

Bill


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

*Re: hmm...*



Dendro Dave said:


> for starters feed her as much as she'll eat. Make sure your dusting with 2 parts calcium to 1 part vitamin powder (roughly)...


Dave, I've seen this recommendation more than once, even though the Herptivite/RepCal instructions recommend a 1:1 ratio, and this is the ratio a local breeder uses...

I realize that certain vitamins have smaller accepted tolerances than calcium, but had assumed that Herptivite and RepCal were formulated with that in mind, so that the 1:1 ratio was OK for them? (As if we know any of the RDAs for any pdfs!)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I believe the reason many use that 2:1 ratio is because some minerals will actually interfer with the uptake of the calcium, i think phosphorous is the main one (if not the only one).... 

For instance i think Tetra calcium powder has to much phosphorous and has actually be thought to kill animals, or lead to their deaths due to calcium defiancy even though they were being supplemented regularly....basically its just a precaution to make sure nothing is interfering with the calcium uptake while still giving them needed vitamins


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The ratio should be between 1:1 and 2:1 of calcium to phosphorus. At greater ratios, there is insufficient phosphorus for bone formation and an increasing issues with conditional deficiencies of other trace mineral such as zinc. Below those ratios, there is insufficient calcium for proper bone formation. 

The ratio of a two part supplement like rep-cal and herptivite should be based on the ratio of calcium and phosphorus not on any other factors (although technically you should also account for the phosphorus in the feeder insects...). 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

So ED, is the 2-1 ratio good with those brands of supplements? Is it giving us the 2-1 ratio of calcium and phosphourus needed?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well DAVE,

I would suggest weighing a 1/2 tablespoon of each to get the weight. I would then suggest calculating out the amount of calcium and phosphorus in that volume of supplement to get the basic ratio. As D. melanogaster are 1.05% P (and 0.1% Ca) by weight on a dry matter basis you have to dust the flies to see how much of the supplement is being retained on the flies and correct for this with respect to the P content of the flies and when it is all factored together you should be able to get the correct end number. 

Tongue in cheek over with. People obsess over calcium to the point that it is oversupplemented. Out of the necessary supplements it actually has one of the narrowest (if not the narrowest) ranges for metabolic uses. Over and under that targeted amount and there are going to be problems (about 4% of the diet on a dry matter basis). A ratio of 2:1 isn't really ideal as you are on the upper limit of oversupplementing with calcium. The actual ideal goal is to shoot for a ratio of 1.5:1 Ca to P. (which is about where you should be with most feeder insects if you use a 1:1 by volume of those two supplements. Fruitflies and pinhead crickets due to thier large surface to volume ratio can retain sufficient supplement to cause oversupplementation (Donoghue, Susan, unpublished study (but see Mader's second edition of Reptile Medicine and Surgery). 

Ed


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

:lol: :lol: 

Trouble is, Ed, that first paragraph sounded so much _like_ you...I was just trying to figure out how close I could get to cussing you out when I got to your second paragraph....  

Anyway, I'm glad Dave asked the question and I'm glad to hear your answer. I had been assuming that if we all agree that this brand is the best we should at the least try to follow their instructions, since one hopes they've done a bit of research...

Now I'm wondering--do juvies have different needs than adults? I think a lot of us have dealt with Ca issues in growing reptiles and that's why it's of particular interest...


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

RKK,

I would recommend getting a fecal run. Had the exact same symptoms with a colony of Powder Blue tincs. They are on meds now and looking good. Let me know if you want the details of what I found with my group.

Marcos


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