# Multispecies (Ecosystem) Palu Ideas



## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Hey guys,

I have some experience with reptiles, inverts, and plants, but no experience with fish. I want to make a vivarium that is a self-contained ecosystem, maybe not necessarily with things from the same part of the world but obviously things with the same humidity and temperature requirements. I was thinking it would be a vertical tank, with perhaps an arboreal tarantula at the top, small frogs and isopods/springtails at the bottom, and some sort of fish and clean up crew (possibly a betta and ghost shrimp or snail?) in a pond at the bottom, as well as plants throughout. I'm not sure on tank size yet. I'm looking at vertical tanks and seeing that the largest commercially available ones are about 60gal, so that will have to work I suppose. I'm not completely dead-set on any one thing (ie I can just have the pond and the arboreal species, or any combination of the three elements, just as long as the end product is presentable and something I'm proud to maintain) so I'm not worried about overcrowding, I'll just scratch off the idea for something if it seems too crowded. This is all just being penciled in right now, it's going to be a very expensive, very long-term planning project. I'm not impulsive or impatient and I'm very willing to take suggestions and advice.

I'd really love input on species suggestions and care, as I've never attempted something this complicated before. For example, how would I clean the pond?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

I would look through that before you start planning anything. Multispecies exhibits are NOT easy to pull off and you risk the welfare of the animals by not being able to provide the appropriate niche habitats for them to coexist. 

It is also a bit of a hot topic around here because we frequently have new people coming along with the intentions of doing so... and when we tell them it is likely not a good idea and will be extremely difficult to do properly they usually aren't happy to hear it... haha

Make sure you do some reading here before you attempt anything. Use the search function towards the upper right side of the page. There is a wealth of information here that hopefully will be able to help you make the best decision about what you want for your animals.

Good luck and happy reading!


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Thank you for the reply, Tom. I carefully read through the monster of a thread you linked me, and through it and a few google searches found several different threads in several different websites on the subject, some tentatively supporting the idea, others vehemently striking it down, and still others being the inquiries of people who obviously did not research the two species they attempted to put together. I want to make it clear that I am not planning on doing this tomorrow: I will do infinite amounts of research to make sure the animals I put together will not interfere with each other before even beginning to gather supplies for this project. It has already been pointed out to me, for example, that much as I love tarantulas, a tarantula would not be a suitable cagemate for anything I didn't plan on having it eat. I'm now looking at different gecko species.

I fully intend to follow, to the best of my ability, the guidelines that Ed has given on how to successfully keep multiple species in one enclosure, but I'm not an encyclopedia and I don't know everything about every species. I don't even know where to begin, geographically. I know I'd like to do something tropical and warm (high 70's, low 80's) but other than that this is all just a daydream still. But, with the combined knowledge of multiple experienced keepers from various different animal and vivarium forums, I have good hope that I can string together a coherent, safe plan for this.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Alex,

I would suggest starting with figuring out a geo-region you want to represent. Here are some examples of tropical regions and possible species to get you started:

1) Solomon Islands- Skunk Geckos, Green Tree Skinks and Solomon Island Eyelash frogs
2) Thailand- Flying/Golden Geckos, Mountain Horn dragons, Water Skinks and Chinese Flying frogs.
3) Africa- Dull Day Geckos/Lygodactylus, Reed Frogs, Blue tail tree lizards
4) Madagascar- Mantellas, Day Geckos, Malagasy Reed Frogs(Heterixalus or Boophis)
5) Central Americas- Auratus/Pumilio/Vittatus, Gonatodes(Vittatus, Humeralis or Cecilia), Anolis Roquet Summus/Trinitatus/Bartschi


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Frogs are an expensive meal for a tarantula


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## MollyAttack (Sep 24, 2011)

mantisdragon91 said:


> 2) Thailand- Flying/Golden Geckos, Mountain Horn dragons, Water Skinks and Chinese Flying frogs.


If you were to do this I would not suggest a thailand biotype with flying geckos as your arboreal species because they are notorious for having mites which may affect your other vivaria.


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I would suggest starting with figuring out a geo-region you want to represent. Here are some examples of tropical regions and possible species to get you started:
> 
> ...


The Madagascar setup sounds like the one I'd be most interested in, I do like day geckos quite a bit  Thank you for the suggestions.


epiphytes etc. said:


> Frogs are an expensive meal for a tarantula


This has already been noted.


MollyAttack said:


> If you were to do this I would not suggest a thailand biotype with flying geckos as your arboreal species because they are notorious for having mites which may affect your other vivaria.


Noted.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

MollyAttack said:


> If you were to do this I would not suggest a thailand biotype with flying geckos as your arboreal species because they are notorious for having mites which may affect your other vivaria.


I actually have this type of setup going for almost 5 years and have never had an issue with the mites affecting other inhabitants. In fact quite a number of gecko species come in with mites and if properly maintained the mites end up disappearing in months.


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## MollyAttack (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that's what I've seen, and for ease of set up and less headaches...why would you want to start with something that has mites? I also said it "may affect" not that it will. Personally, I have never experienced mites with my geckos, I have only seen and heard of it through multiple friends that have flying geckos among other species (that have never had any mites). It did not sound like a fun experience to me. Just offering up some advice, that's all! 

If I were to come across an animal that had mites, I would quarantine it and get rid of them before introducing it into my tank with other animals. Putting them in with the others and waiting for them to go away doesn't really seem like the right thing to do. You're taking a chance on if they will die or not, and if they instead multiply, well now you've got the whole tank to deal with instead of just one animal.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

If you are going with a Malagasy set up here are some things to consider:

1) avoid the larger more commonly available Grandis since they can and will prey on smaller inhabitants and research the Quadricellata, Lineata, Klemmeri and Lauticada instead(stick to one species and pair to the tank)
2) You can also consider adding some of the fish scale geckos(geckolepsis) that occasionally appear on the market
3) Lean towards Heterixalus as opposed to Boophis since they tend to be more hardy in captivity and are even available as captive born on occasion
4) For mantellas- if you decide to work with Goldens or Painteds do not mix them with other species since their skin toxins can potentially be deadly to other mantella species.


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Looking at the care requirements for Lygodactylus williamsi and Hyperolius viridisflavus, it seems these two would be good companions. However, as they can eat the same foods, I wonder what the best way to feed them would be? Should I remove them into separate containers at feeding time or just release the food into the cage and try and watch for them to eat?

Also I'd really like to incorporate a water feature with fish in this enclosure (paludarium). What would be a good fish to use? I'd love to use a betta and some ghost shrimp, but obviously those aren't in keeping with the Madagascar theme. Would it still matter, since they aren't reptiles or amphibians and can't spread (non-zoological) diseases to each other?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Alex G said:


> Looking at the care requirements for Lygodactylus williamsi and Hyperolius viridisflavus, it seems these two would be good companions. However, as they can eat the same foods, I wonder what the best way to feed them would be? Should I remove them into separate containers at feeding time or just release the food into the cage and try and watch for them to eat?
> 
> Also I'd really like to incorporate a water feature with fish in this enclosure (paludarium). What would be a good fish to use? I'd love to use a betta and some ghost shrimp, but obviously those aren't in keeping with the Madagascar theme. Would it still matter, since they aren't reptiles or amphibians and can't spread (non-zoological) diseases to each other?


I would never recommend removing the animals for feeding since the stress and possibility of escape far outweigh any benefits.

The water feature is something that can be done but there are issues to consider since if it is not properly setup and cleaned it can be a breeding ground for disease. There is always the possibility of fish spreading disease to amphibians especially species like bettas which are kept and bred in small containers.


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Ok, so for now I'm thinking
Top level: Phelsuma species (I'm partial to laticauda)
False bottom: Heterixalus species (possibly alboguttatus) or millipede
Pond: ???? (I really, really want to have a betta in there, but it's obviously not a Madagascar native and I can be persuaded to do a different fish.)
Plants: ???? (it would be easiest to throw some pothos, moss, maybe some button fern in there, but if there are commercially available madagascar natives I will consider these as well)

And other thoughts? I appreciate all input.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i am also considering starting up a mad biotypic display. lots of cool plants but some are hard to find. lot of angraecoid orchids are mad natives. im a bit stumped on what fish would be from there and be ok, my display wont have a water area. im not sure but maybe hydrophyte was selling a native mad palm species a while ago. keep us informed of progress. also im glad to see such a helpful set of responses to a somewhat contriversial question.


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## Totenkampf (Jun 25, 2012)

i have had mixed paludariums featuring phelsuma geckoes, phyllomedicine frogs, and dwarf gourami fishes. the paludarium dimensions need to be of a larger size than you would normally expect for a similar number of animals in a single species. i have never seen any evidence of pathogens moving between fish and phibs in my old setups but i suppose its possible. that being said, i have found pathogens in WC frogs far more often than i have seen in any bettas.

a larger water area with plenty of movement and a mech / bio filter is not a candidate for the phrase 'breeding ground for disease'. it will probably be much cleaner than the substrate in the land area and would actually be a better idea than a standing water area under a false floor

the four phelsuma suggested above are great choices. i am thinking about getting klemmeri again myself since they are more personable but not much beats the beauty of laticauda. they are very delicate, do not plan on handling them if you can help it

reed frogs are also an excellent choice, but be aware that they do like a small heat lamp to be present. for frogs, try to get nocturnal feeders so they dont directly compete with the geckoes at feeding time. mantella and PDF are not great candidates for paludarium IMO since they can be poor swimmers.

millipedes can quickly attain pest levels and can be tough to eradicate if they like their habitat.

many of the small south american tetras or asian softwater fish would do well in a paludarium. killifish would also be an interesting choice. for something spectacular, check out this months amazonas magazine for the licorice gourami...it is outstanding. there are also many nice betta other than the common splendens to try.

any plants should love this setup, especially bog type plants. you can also grow emmersed forms of many 'aquarium' type plants


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

skanderson said:


> i am also considering starting up a mad biotypic display. lots of cool plants but some are hard to find. lot of angraecoid orchids are mad natives. im a bit stumped on what fish would be from there and be ok, my display wont have a water area. im not sure but maybe hydrophyte was selling a native mad palm species a while ago. keep us informed of progress. also im glad to see such a helpful set of responses to a somewhat contriversial question.


Good luck and I agree, I am new to this board and I have been very impressed with the wealth of help and information I'm being supplied 


Totenkampf said:


> i have had mixed paludariums featuring phelsuma geckoes, phyllomedicine frogs, and dwarf gourami fishes. the paludarium dimensions need to be of a larger size than you would normally expect for a similar number of animals in a single species. i have never seen any evidence of pathogens moving between fish and phibs in my old setups but i suppose its possible. that being said, i have found pathogens in WC frogs far more often than i have seen in any bettas.
> 
> a larger water area with plenty of movement and a mech / bio filter is not a candidate for the phrase 'breeding ground for disease'. it will probably be much cleaner than the substrate in the land area and would actually be a better idea than a standing water area under a false floor
> 
> ...


Thank you for all your help! I will keep all these things in mind.
I never planned on touching any of the inhabitants of this paludarium, except to move them into the tank and out, if absolutely necessary. I have a leopard gecko if I'm really craving holding something, haha!
I intended on having a UVA/UVB lamp on the hood of the tank anyways, for the day geckos. Would that provide enough heat for the frogs? (I've always kept nocturnal and never had to fuss with a lamp before, so I'm not sure if UVB bulbs emit heat or just UVB)


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## Totenkampf (Jun 25, 2012)

as long as there is a leafy plant or perch near the lamp so the frogs can thermoregulate i think that the lamps would be fine. of course this wont work through a heavy glass pane. despite some persons beliefs that nocturnal frogs do not need UVB i have noticed that reed and leaf frogs will sleep on a 'sunny' broad leaf if given the opportunity.


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## herpkeeper10 (May 1, 2012)

i heard you should never mix anything really. except if its gonna be food or both animals benefit from eachother.


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## Totenkampf (Jun 25, 2012)

herpkeeper10 said:


> i heard you should never mix anything really. except if its gonna be food or both animals benefit from eachother.


many people will agree with that, but thats kinda the point of the OPs post. it can be done with care and education and its definately more work. does it benefit the animals in any way or is it just 'for' the hobbyist? maybe but i dont think that means it shouldnt be done. it just hsouldnt be done haphazardly


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually we should be avoiding any enclosures that contain animals that are not sympatric with each other. The reason for this is due to the evolution of novel pathogens that end up causing real problems for animals in the wild and/or in captivity. There are multiple potential examples of this including but not limited to chytrid, ranaviruses, Mycoplasm in native Gopherus, and Terrapene.. 
If we look at chytrid for example, the current theory is that the pathogenicity of Bd is due to the recombination of two or more strains from disparate regions resulting in an increased infectiousness and lethality.. As a result, there is a petition before USF&W to prohibit the import and interstate transport of live amphibians, thier eggs, and/or larva unless certified to be free of chytrid. (see Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service) 

The potential risks from parasites and pathogens jumping host species to novel hosts is a real risk where the simple precaution is to simply not house species from disparate locations together. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Please, listen to Ed and Roman (and me) on this one. 

At first I was going to get stern, but I quickly realized something: Tropical fish keepers have been maintaining community tanks for decades that readily mix fish from different parts of the world. Of course:

1) The goal of a display tank is not usually breeding;

2) Many tropical fishes have been captive-bred for a while, and this probably minimizes (but not eliminates) pathogen issues;

(Even those Amano "Nature Aquariums" mix SA fish with Asian plants, etc. Drives me #[email protected] batty...)

So, it makes sense that someone might think what the hell, let's do it with herps. Now, the following comes under the heading of, do as we say, not as I did... 26 yrs ago, I started a big ass paludarium which eventually stabilized with the following residents:

2.1 Corytophanes cristasus
1.0 Ptychozoon kuhlii
1.1 Tropidophorus 
1.1 Dasia smaragdina
1.0 Litoria infrafrenata
1.1 Hyla chrysocelis

Now let's get real busy:

1 African Butterfly
1.0 Ctenopoma ansorgei
2 Corydoras panda
1 Endler's livebearer
5 Rasbora espei
3 Bumblebee gobies

and of course

2 Mudskippers (Now, the only the reason I added mudskippers was because I had to remove my _Lepidosiren paradoxa_--poor Lisa grew too big for the pool...)

Water pH 7.2-7.4 salted for livebearers. As for plants, these were the days when we were lucky to grow Ficus 'Dutch treat' and Scindapsus pictus with Cryptanthus, and we spent our time hacking the creeping fig--all the nursery bromeliads were too big...) I bred the Corytophanes in this set up. Now let me make this quite clear: *I was lucky*. This was way too much bioload for this tank--but even if I increased the tank size and cut the biomass it was not a good combination!

However, this does mean that something nice cannot be done, in a big enough tank. I recommend five principles, many already stated here:

--Large enclosure 
--Same biogeographic region
--Different "niches" (e.g., terrestrial/arboreal, etc.)
--Similar size
--Quarantine (especially with anything wild-caught, the longer the better)

The only combination I would add to Roman's list would be:

--small American Hyla with Anolis carolinensis and if the enclosure is large enough, a green snake OR a few oak toads. In a big enclosure, the hylids, toads and anoles can coexist.

Next post will make fish recommendations.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Okay, when adding fish we sometimes have to make concessions; for example, it would be hard to find an assortment of small Madagascar fish for a Madagascar tank (Rainbows get too big) So, I content myself to stay in the same "biogeographic" region--e.g., if I had a Madagascar tank, I'd content myself with African fish:

Neotropical--if the pool is big enough:

2.2 Black Phantoms or Emperor tetras (both tougher than cardinals or neons)
2-3 Corydoras panda
4-5 Otocinclus (not very long-lived)
1.2 small livebearer of your choice (not swordtails!)

(I know that dwarf cichlids are tempting, but they need space)

Afrotropical--if the pool is big enough:

African butterfly
Ctenopoma ansorgei
Debaui catfish
African barbs
and what the hell, why not a couple of Hymenochirus

(Congo tetras get too big)

Indo-Malayan--if the pool is big enough:

5 Rasbora espei or heteromorpha (I would avoid danios; too active, need room)
1.1 Puntius (cherry barbs)
1.1 Colisa chuna OR 1 Badis badis OR 1.1 Colisa lalia
3 Kuhli loaches
1 species Betta?
small freshwater gobies

(I would avoid the hillstream type loaches, as these prefer cooler running water. I would also be cautious about White Clouds.)

Now, as to whether your pool is "big enough"--bear in mind that surface area is more important than depth.

A good starter text on how to set up an aqua-terrarium is Desvosjoli's _Popular Amphibians_. it covers set up, cycling and bioload, and has a good intro to appropriate semi-aquatic plants.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Alex,
> 
> I would suggest starting with figuring out a geo-region you want to represent. Here are some examples of tropical regions and possible species to get you started:
> 
> ...


Good calls, brother. Q about #2: Don't _Acanthosaura_ sp. prefer it a bit cooler than the geckos? Maybe it's just me, but I have had far greater success with Japalura, Corytophanes and _Lophognathus temporalis_ (the old "striped" water dragon). I find mountain horneds to be quite heat sensitive.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Ed said:


> Actually we should be avoiding any enclosures that contain animals that are not sympatric with each other. The reason for this is due to the evolution of novel pathogens that end up causing real problems for animals in the wild and/or in captivity. There are multiple potential examples of this including but not limited to chytrid, ranaviruses, Mycoplasm in native Gopherus, and Terrapene..
> If we look at chytrid for example, the current theory is that the pathogenicity of Bd is due to the recombination of two or more strains from disparate regions resulting in an increased infectiousness and lethality.. As a result, there is a petition before USF&W to prohibit the import and interstate transport of live amphibians, thier eggs, and/or larva unless certified to be free of chytrid. (see Environmental Contaminants Program Home Page, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service)
> 
> The potential risks from parasites and pathogens jumping host species to novel hosts is a real risk where the simple precaution is to simply not house species from disparate locations together.
> ...



Ed:

1) Is there any lit on keeping non-sympatric species that are captive born--a la gouramis with tetras? (I would be cautious, but I wonder if we're being over-cautious...)

2) Not to be cute: Can I consider anoles and phelsumas from Hawaii "sympatric?"


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Addendum: What saved my paludarium was the old Eheim submersible filter, replaced after a few years with a Fluval 2. Avoid overcrowding, partial water changes and good chemical filtration will go a long way...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

mantisdragon91 said:


> If you are going with a Malagasy set up here are some things to consider:
> 
> 1) avoid the larger more commonly available Grandis since they can and will prey on smaller inhabitants and research the Quadricellata, Lineata, Klemmeri and Lauticada instead(stick to one species and pair to the tank)
> 2) You can also consider adding some of the fish scale geckos(geckolepsis) that occasionally appear on the market
> ...


Roman: Are the smaller Phelsumas better kept 1.1 or 1.2? in all seriousness, how bitchy are the girls?


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Groundhog said:


> Roman: Are the smaller Phelsumas better kept 1.1 or 1.2? in all seriousness, how bitchy are the girls?


From what I've been reading about them, they're best kept as a 1.1 and get aggressive when there's more than one female.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Groundhog said:


> Good calls, brother. Q about #2: Don't _Acanthosaura_ sp. prefer it a bit cooler than the geckos? Maybe it's just me, but I have had far greater success with Japalura, Corytophanes and _Lophognathus temporalis_ (the old "striped" water dragon). I find mountain horneds to be quite heat sensitive.


Mountain dragons do fine at temps from 70-80 degrees with a localized heat spot. These temps work just as well for all the other species that I suggested they can be kept with.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Groundhog said:


> Roman: Are the smaller Phelsumas better kept 1.1 or 1.2? in all seriousness, how bitchy are the girls?


Depends on the animal and the size of the tank. I have kept Gold Dusts in trios with no issues for years only to have to separate them due to sudden aggression. On the other hand I have kept Klemmeri in groups with multiple males with no issues at all. When dealing with Phelsuma it is always best to monitor constantly and intervene when needed, since even pairs can suddenly turn hostile towards each other with no apparent trigger.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> Ed:
> 
> 1) Is there any lit on keeping non-sympatric species that are captive born--a la gouramis with tetras? (I would be cautious, but I wonder if we're being over-cautious...)
> 
> 2) Not to be cute: Can I consider anoles and phelsumas from Hawaii "sympatric?"


One of the problems with using fish as an example is that fish farms are known to be vectors for transmitting various pathogens such as chytrid, saprolegnia, and viruses that infect amphibians. 
See for example Universitas Scientiarum - Primer registro de Saprolegnia sp. en una población de anfibios en Colombia 

http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_2/Issue_1/Green_Dodd_2007.pdf

http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/mgray/SEPARC/SEPARCRanavirusesFinal.pdf

This is one of the reasons we shouldn't be considering captive bred fish to be safe since a large portion of the ones available for the hobby are bred in large open aquaculture farms, in Florida, Asia or other countries. In south-east asia, dwarf frogs of the genus Hymenochirus are bred for the pet trade at these farms, enabling a living host for pathogens to shed directly into the ponds (this is in addition to infected wild amphibians having access to the ponds). 

Due to this issue, all water from enclosures housing amphibians should be treated with bleach before being discarded. 

With respect to the anoles, phelsumids.... It is better than if you sourced the animals from thier original ranges but there is still risk since the ability of a pathogen to jump species can be in no small part due to how closely they are housed together. 

Ed


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

So just to clarify:

Animals from different geographic regions: Bad
Plants from different geographic regions: Also bad???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Alex G said:


> So just to clarify:
> 
> Animals from different geographic regions: Bad
> Plants from different geographic regions: Also bad???


 
Unless you are getting the plants as direct imports from the wild, then no, the plants are fine. Plants grown outside or kept outside are potential risks but for many of the species, cuttings enable you to get around this concern. 

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Alex G said:


> So just to clarify:
> 
> Animals from different geographic regions: Bad
> Plants from different geographic regions: Also bad???



I am going to partially demur on this one. Ed is certainly correct that plants grown in safe greenhouse conditions pose very little risk. But I still have wonder-why? Yes, I know that jewel orchids look cool in pdf tanks--I get it. But there are so many plants now out there!

European keepers like to do biotopes, wherein animals are kept with plants from the same biogeographic region. (Of course, fish keepers have been doing the same for years; I find a central American pond or a west African lagoon to be pretty cool!) The result is not only aesthetic, but educational. It provides a small window into what a piece of the real world actually looks like. That's I think some of the best set ups are the spartan ones--just 2-3 plant species with some leaf litter, the result is what a forest floor really looks like! 

Of course, we have to work within limits. Real organisms do not live in countries or even biogeographic regions (e.g., neotropical, palearctic, etc.) Real organisms live in microclimates. However, this is not always feasible; it would be much easier, for example, to do a theme of Andean Peru or Costa Rica than New Caledonia or western Madagascar. For myself, I am content to stay within the same region. I would have no problem keeping Amazonian treefrogs with plants from eastern Brazil, or day geckos with African plants. For me, it's close enough.

Here is a pic of a little Asian planting I did in our local community garden. I know it's not spectacular, but I feel it shows a small piece of what an east Asian hillside might look like. The plants are _Begonia grandis, Hemiboea subcapitata, Adiantum venustum_, mondo grass, _Saxifraga stolonifera, Selaginella uncinata _(obstructed is an Autumn fern, and I'm going to add a small hosta on the other side). In other words, a small piece of (exotic) nature:


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Thank you both for your input, I appreciate the time you're taking to guide me in the right direction and relay information.

As for why pick non-geographically related plants... for me, it comes down to this. I'm a VERY novice gardener, and I want, at least for the time being, plants that will LIVE for me... ie bamboo, pothos, ferns, anubias, etc... I'd love to do an entire biotope instead, but I would need to get some experience with growing the related plants before I attempt an entire vivarium centered around their growth.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Just tell us what you want to do--there are more than enough DB people to suggest plants


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## Alex G (Aug 24, 2012)

Alright, thus far my plan is the largest arboreal tank I can afford. I may make or commission this to be made so that I can be sure it's waterproof before buying.

Arboreal: A pair of P.laticauda or P.klemmeri
False bottom: Isopods and Heterixalus sp. frogs
Pond: So far I'm set on a betta for their ease of care, but further research into the different fish you've suggested could sway me in their direction. My primary goal is ease of care with the fish, as I'm not well-versed in the ways of fish 
Plants: Bamboo for sure, possibly button fern, pothos, anubias and java moss for the pond


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

For example:

Central America
Columnea
Diastema
Drymonia
Begonia sp.
Ficus 'Panama'
Peperomia sp.
Guzmania sp.
Vriesea heliconioides
tillandsia sp.
Anthurium
Philodendron
Spathiphyllum
Syngonium


Brazil
Selaginella erythropus
Episcia
Nematanthus or XCodonatanthus
Sinningia sp. (more than a few minis)
Fittonia sp.
Peperomia sp.
a few melastomes
Cissus amazonica
Cryptanthus
Neoregelia
Tillandsia
Monstera sp.
Philodendron
Rhodocarpa
Spathicarpa
Echinodorus sp (pick a small one!)
epiphytic cacti

west Africa
Anubias sp.
Bolbitis
yellow-flowered Begonias
Begonia eleagnifolia
Aerangis sp.
Angraecum sp.
and possibly Saintpaulia? (east African, I know...)

SE Asia
Aeschynanthus sp.
Begonia luzonensis
Beg polloiensis
Beg rajah (not too hot)
Beg u074
Pellionia sp.
Pilea sp.
Piper sp.
Ficus sp.
Epipremnum sp.
Alocasia
Cryptocoryne sp.
Bulbophyllum sp.
oh yeah, JAVA moss


There are SEVERAL more, this is off the top of my head after midnight...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Alex G said:


> Alright, thus far my plan is the largest arboreal tank I can afford. I may make or commission this to be made so that I can be sure it's waterproof before buying.
> 
> Arboreal: A pair of P.laticauda or P.klemmeri
> False bottom: Isopods and Heterixalus sp. frogs
> ...



Aha...

Picked da hardest one, eh?

Okay...

1) Anubias--check. _Anubias hastifolia_ does not seem to need super-high humidity.
2) Java moss-gee, why not?
3) Lose the button fern--too warm and too wet. Go with _Bolbitis heudolotii emersed_; Andy has a nice Asplenium on his site.
4) Bamboo? As in true bamboo? Why, for the geckos to climb? Hmnnn...
Any stay small enough? 
5) Once this tank is established, do not be afraid of angraecoid orchids. Pricey, but underrated as vivarium plants. They're very slooow, but many are quite tough.
6) _Medinilla sedifolia_. Pretty plant, Madagascar endemic. Should be mounted and not too wet.

QUESTION guys: When the hell are we going to get a smaller vining African aroid in the trade? Any out there?

I like to check Mike Kartuz's site for rare African tropicals 

Kartuz Greenhouses: Rare and Exotic Plants


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Methinks Hydrophyte should weigh in on this one


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> I European keepers like to do biotopes, wherein animals are kept with plants from the same biogeographic region. (Of course, fish keepers have been doing the same for years; I find a central American pond or a west African lagoon to be pretty cool!) The result is not only aesthetic, but educational. It provides a small window into what a piece of the real world actually looks like.


This is always an interesting topic for me... With respect to the fish, it is possible to get a lot closer than it is for terrestrial species... when we look at terrestrial species, the biotopic is much more visual than people realize.. since rarely does a keeper use substrates that actually mimic the substrate found in the animal's habitat.... Instead substrates typically are some varient on soilless mixes that are more optimized for the plants... and this is before we get into the seeding the enclosures with invertebrates that are not found in thier specific habitats.... 

Ed


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Ed said:


> This is always an interesting topic for me... With respect to the fish, it is possible to get a lot closer than it is for terrestrial species... when we look at terrestrial species, the biotopic is much more visual than people realize.. since rarely does a keeper use substrates that actually mimic the substrate found in the animal's habitat.... Instead substrates typically are some varient on soilless mixes that are more optimized for the plants... and this is before we get into the seeding the enclosures with invertebrates that are not found in thier specific habitats....
> 
> Ed


True enough, Ed. But I maintain that keeping any organism in captivity is to some extent artificial; we try to strike a balance between aesthetic and good cultural practice. For example, we do not use garden soil in pots, even if they are natives--it just doesn't work. Similarly, we rarely (if ever?) light our indoor enclosures with overhead natural light; we use bulbs. (although in summer, I just open the windows and let my big guys get uv through the screening). 

As for seeding, wouldn't it be nice to have a choice between neotropical isopods/African springtails, etc. Reminds me of the use of Siamese flying foxes for algae control; sometimes they find their place in South American tanks. I'd do this too, to keep my tank nice (no, I've never done a comparison of the relative efficacy of Flying foxes vs. American flagfish). We do the best we can. 

All I am trying to say is: If you have anoles, learn to like philodendron more than pothos. If you dig hyperoliids, learn to like Sansieverias. I refer back to my garden planting above; I know it ain't spectacular, but I offer the theme as both pleasant and educational. To the best of my limited ability, I am trying to appreciate nature on its terms.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Like I said it is an interesting topic.. 

Ed


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

im enjoying this thread tremendously as i am starting my madagascar biotypic display build now. any bamboo will outgrow your viv. even the very short varieties are very invasive and fast growing. just order some bamboo poles to place in there for the day geckos. i agree that it would be nice to find a source for a small shingler/climber. keep posting as you make decisions. i am considering trying Phelsuma quadriocellata, a small uroplatus pair, a group of mantellas, and a few reed frogs. it would be nice to find a source of the cool green milipedes that look like giant sow bugs that i have seen in a madagascar guide book.


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