# Husbandry Improvements - Tadpole Care



## kyle1745

I am starting this thread to get a conversation going on possibilities on how we could improve our tadpole care.

Editing in some thoughts:

1. Tadpole water quality, in many cases can be overlooked and with many things what may work for one person may not work for another. I personally have become a big fan of remineralized RO water for my tads.

2. Tadpole Food... Ive done 2 rough experiments on this with almost 200 tads, and the outcome was surprising. Good fish food, Brine Shrimp, and tadpole bites produces much larger and healthier tads than the standard algae mix.

3. Tanins? I used to swear by them, but have since got away from them, but wanted to list it as many swear by them. Id also like to see some scientific discussions on the different types and benefits.

4. Community rearing for some species... Lets discuss the benefits and or lack of benefits from raising some tadpoles together.


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## kyle1745

Posted by Yuri in another thread, and I think it is relevant to both of the threads...


> Kyle, great idea!
> 
> I think under number 4. it would be interesting to discuss letting parents do more raising. Very loosely (and with heavy generalizations), there seem to be two main camps in this hobby regarding this issue. One is the volume camp and the other is the let nature do its thing camp. NOTE: this is not a negative criticism of the volume camp as I like loud music and lots of frogs.
> 
> Volume camp - is to produce as many eggs and tadpoles and froglets as possible. This involves removing eggs in the case on non-obligate oophages and trying to get each and everyone morph into a froglet. One of the intended or unintended consequences is that a lot of froglets are produced. My initial euphoria over having frogs led me to want to have many more frogs and I started off trying to maximize reproductive potential using outside influences to get as many eggs to survive and as many froglets.
> 
> Nature camp - is to let the parents do what they evolved to do - tend to eggs, transport tadpoles. This requires good tank design with good tadpole deposition sites. One of the consequences is that the design (size/volume, tadpole deposition sites, viable food sources) dictates the capacity for producing froglets. This is the course you have to take with obligate oophages (e.g. pumilio, histrionicus, lehmanni). These are also considered to be more 'advanced' frogs and lest to people with a higher level of experience. That is an interesting comment to me, because can we make it more challenging to ourselves as frog culturers to design our vivaria and our husbandry techniques to raise non obligate oophageous species in a more natural manner. Will the viability of the individual offspring be greater than volume raising? Will the behavioural viability of the species be maintained? Is the volume method leading us down the path of pseudo domestication of some species?


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## Ed

snip "Tadpole Food... Ive done 2 rough experiments on this with almost 200 tads, and the outcome was surprising. Good fish food, Brine Shrimp, and tadpole bites produces much larger and healthier tads than the standard algae mix." endsnip

If you go back to the old days you will see that tadpole diets have been somewhat cyclical in nature. In the old days, people began rearing them like you would most ranids with a mostly algae or plant based diet but as time went on people moved to the better and better fish foods. However over time this then fell out of favor and people again trended back to algae and plant based foods.. I think that this may have been in part due to that the algae and plant based diets tend to cause less water fouling.. 
Instead of tadpole bites, I use live blackworms. These are very readily accepted by the tadpoles and do not cause any fouling of the water unless you really add too many to the enclosure. 

Ed


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## kyle1745

The brine I used, and the blood worms were both dried and also worked well. Im a big fan of the tadpole bites as many know as they are simple to use and do not foul the water. The fish food seemed to foul the water a good bit. I was impressed with my second run how well the brine did.


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## Dancing frogs

Ed, I have thought about aquiring a blackworm culture...
Do you feed a whole, live one to the tad (or if I remember right, you raise most communally) or cut them to a more manageable size?

I'm thinking quart (ish) sized containers, with some sand and or clay in the bottom would be a good step up from the 9oz cups I am using now.

Obviously, though, it wouldn't be practical for people to raise single tads of epip's, phyllo's, or some mantella in this fasion...unless they have a spare heated/airconditioned garage!

Some will argue that in the wild, tads don't have that much water available anyway, but I would argue back that the water the tads are in in the wild are not (usually) impermeable plastic or glass cups, but rather leaves, wood, or mud, all of which would have their own effect on the water quality, most likely, at least removing some stages in the nitrogen cycle.


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## yuri

The ventrimaculatus tadpoles I observed in the wild over the course of a couple of weeks were in bromeliad axils. Pretty big bromeliad, but still not a tremendous amount of water. What they did seem to get was a somewhat constant partial flushing from the almost daily rain.

It was amazing to watch this bromeliad, because not only was it the territory for a pair of ventrimaculatus but there was also a sizeable tarantula's funnel attached partially to the top of the bromeliad. The axils were filled with detritus (both above the waterline at at least immediately below it). There was also a good amount of what looked like bird droppings on the bromeliad at one point.

Whenever I disrupted one of the tadpoles enough that it dove down to the center of the bromeliad, it would stir up quite a bit of fine debris in the water. So, who knows what the levels of bacteria, nitrogen etc. were at any given time. I suspect it could fluctuate quite a bit - e.g. bird droppings and no rain for a day. Then an hour of steady, somewhat heavy rain the next day.

So for any particular period in time the volume of water might be small, however, they seem to live in an environment that is like an intermittent waterfall and experience constant, partial flushing of their axil, with periods that allow for accumulation of waste.

It would be interesting to see how dramatic the swings in concentration for various elements/compounds are over the course of a few days.



Dancing frogs said:


> Some will argue that in the wild, tads don't have that much water available anyway, but I would argue back that the water the tads are in in the wild are not (usually) impermeable plastic or glass cups, but rather leaves, wood, or mud, all of which would have their own effect on the water quality, most likely, at least removing some stages in the nitrogen cycle.


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## Ed

snip "Ed, I have thought about aquiring a blackworm culture... 
Do you feed a whole, live one to the tad (or if I remember right, you raise most communally) or cut them to a more manageable size? "endsnip

Blackworm colonies reproduce very slowly so it often is better to simply buy them as needed. I use whole worms. The tadpoles suck them up like spaghetti... Often they eat the ends off the worms which then regenerate new ends.. 
I get 1/2 lb shipped to me at work and I buy about a pound a month at a local pet store (where they are about $22 a pound). 


snip "I'm thinking quart (ish) sized containers, with some sand and or clay in the bottom would be a good step up from the 9oz cups I am using now."endsnip

Any reason for using these substrates in particular? 

Ed


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## kyle1745

Has any work been done to see what some of the tadpoles eat in the wild? Is it live food? or all plant based?

I do like the idea of water testing the broms, has anyone done this for more than just PH levels?


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## bbrock

Back when I first started in the hobby, all the cool people used the same thing for their tads, Aquarian Vitamin and Mineral flake which was a high quality plant and animal based fish food and various supplements such as daphnia and brine shrimp. I still have half a case in the freezer but they stopped making it many years ago which left people scrambling. That seems to be about when Spirulina and algae based foods gained popularity and I never understood why. Dendrobatid tadpoles in the wild get quite a mix of foods so shifting to a primarily plant-based diet made little sense. I'm a firm believer in supplying some animal protein in the tadpole diet.

I have communally raised D. auratus, P. vittatus, and P. bicolor and wouldn't do it any other way for any species that it works for. I used the NAIB method with large tubs that contained about 5 gal. of water, a gravel filled basket with a pothos planted in the middle, a small air bubbler, a leaf litter layer and compost on the bottom, and a light over the top to promote algae growth. In reality you didn't even have to feed the tads in these setups since enough bacteria and algae grew in the tubs to support them. But I feed them anyway usually. I didn't keep good records back then so can't say if cannibilism ever occured but I do know that about the same number of froglets came out as the number of tadpoles that went in. I also got to where I mixed age groups just constantly feeding new tadpoles into the tubs and removing the froglets as they morphed. I remember NAIB folks saying they even reared vents this way although they did see a number of tail nips and probably some loss to cannibilism. I don't know if I would use the method on vents myself but you can beat it for ease.

I don't remember where but I'm pretty sure I've seen data for ammonia and nitrate levels in tadpole occupied phytotelmata in the wild and the numbers were all over the place. But it is important to keep in mind that, like Yuri, everyone I know who has observed these things in the wild remarks about the almost daily flushing with rainwater they get. Therefore, nitrogen concentrations could fluctuate even over a 24 hr. period so spot samples of water may not be adequate to paint the full picture. Also, the biological processes that Kyle mentions could be important. Many of these process can actually be replicated in glass jars by including duff and allowing microbial populations to develop. But I think Kyle may have been hinting at the fact that the bromeliads themselves use the nitrogen in their cups which a glass jar is obviously not going to do.


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## Dancing frogs

Ed said:


> snip "I'm thinking quart (ish) sized containers, with some sand and or clay in the bottom would be a good step up from the 9oz cups I am using now."endsnip
> 
> Any reason for using these substrates in particular?
> 
> Ed


I remember a couple people saying they have seen the tads ingest these materials, probably getting some nourishment from the bacteria on them.
Also, they would provide some area for nitrification to take place.

Clay is also said to have some detoxification properties (not sure if that is something to be concerened about with proper diet, etc.), and a good source of calcium.


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## Ed

snip " I remember NAIB folks saying they even reared vents this way although they did see a number of tail nips and probably some loss to cannibilism. I don't know if I would use the method on vents myself but you can beat it for ease. "endsnip

A couple of years ago I was gifted with some vent tadpoles (three). As an experiment I kept them together in a quart container with a constant supply of blackworms. There wasn't any cannibalism or nipped tail fins (unfortunately the room was too cool so they ended up with SLS) so the rate of cannibalism in this species may be based on a higher animal protien requirement... .

snip "I remember a couple people saying they have seen the tads ingest these materials, probably getting some nourishment from the bacteria on them."endsnip

In many animals substrate ingestion is a method for attempting to deal with mineral deficiencies. If you are getting sand ingestion, I would check the mineral content of the water. 


snip "Also, they would provide some area for nitrification to take place."endsnip

This is more the case with sand (as long as the sand bed is very shallow) deeper sand beds. 
I'm not sure how well you could get oxygen penetration in clay substrates so I do not know what the effect on wastes is with a static water situation. (or relatively static water situation). 

snip "Clay is also said to have some detoxification properties (not sure if that is something to be concerened about with proper diet, etc.), and a good source of calcium."endsnip

Not all clays contain equal amounts of calcium. For example the common clay sold for clearing clay ponds is sodium bentonite which does not contain significant levels of calcium (Texas Sodium Bentonite is about 0.88% Ca) but is useful in sealing ponds.... 
As for the detoxification claims.... I would be very skeptical that a material that does not leave the digestive tract can "cleanse" the liver or any other internal organ... 

Ed


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## kyle1745

A buddy of mine when he first started said "all people feed these tads is algea?" He then put some auratus tads in a old fish tank and fed them live brine and other things and was amazed at how much faster they grew and how much larger they came out of the water. This was one of the reasons I started some of my past tests.

I do think the animal based foods are beneficial and from what I can tell many of the tads will eat just about anything...


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## lacerta

Brent says:


> I used the NAIB method with large tubs that contained about 5 gal. of water, a gravel filled basket with a pothos planted in the middle, a small air bubbler, a leaf litter layer and compost on the bottom, and a light over the top to promote algae growth.


Was wondering if there would be any benefit to using an undergravel filter in such a setup? Would it not improve water quality to support a larger bioload and reduce water changes? What sort of water depth are we talking about? May I assume that it is shallow with a large amount of surface area to volume? 



> I also got to where I mixed age groups just constantly feeding new tadpoles into the tubs and removing the froglets as they morphed.


How does the tub method used by NAIB allow for tadpoles to morph? Is there a bank of gravel on one end to provide a gentle "shoreline" gradient? Or am I erroneously assuming that froglets cannot morph out the vertical sides of the tub? 
George


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## bbrock

> Was wondering if there would be any benefit to using an undergravel filter in such a setup? Would it not improve water quality to support a larger bioload and reduce water changes? What sort of water depth are we talking about? May I assume that it is shallow with a large amount of surface area to volume?


I think at best you would create trade-offs. The filter would add complexity to the system that isn't necessary. In addition, the tads seem to like settling into the still mulch that settles at the bottom. In the wild most pdf tads don't experience anything resembling a current so I would be reluctant to introduce one. The water depth is relatively deep, about 8-12 inches. But the mulch layer is only a couple inches deep so not really much chance for developing anaerobic conditions in there. Plus the tads work the mulch over pretty well which would serve to aerate the mulch. So while an undergravel filter might promote microbial growth, it seems like the effect would be minimal.

How does the tub method used by NAIB allow for tadpoles to morph? Is there a bank of gravel on one end to provide a gentle "shoreline" gradient? Or am I erroneously assuming that froglets cannot morph out the vertical sides of the tub? 
George[/quote]

They can actually morph up the sides which seems to be the prefered spot where you find froglets. But the method includes a gravel filled basket with a pothos growing in it. This provides a vegetated island in the middle or toward one end of the tub where froglets can emmerge and find security. My tubs are just large rubbermaid containers. I have one top that I cut a large rectangle out of and replaced with a piece of plexiglass. When the tads start popping front legs, I just put the top over the tub to contain the emmerging froglets.


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## KeroKero

I don't know how the NAIB tadpole containers are now, but back when I was there (98-01) they were half sweater box sized rubbermaids with over flow plumbing and pothos growing in the water (not really contained), not substrate at the time. When tadpoles were fed, the food floated on the water and the tanks were sprayed with water... served duel purposes of getting the food to sink to the bottom where the tadpoles quickly jumped on them, and also overflowed the tank, giving a bit of fresh water... much like the water puddles they'd live in in the wild would overflow a bit when it rained.

I like the addition of the detritus layer, and use them in my own tanks. Use of pothos in theory should help keep some nutrients from getting too extreme... I've been using some floating plants and other aqautic/wet feet plants for that as well... now that I've added plumbing to my rack system, I plan to have the overflow system on the tadpole containers.... I've never been fond of (total) water changes... its bad for fish, so I imagine not too good for tadpoles either...

I generally consider every genus but Dendrobates to have communal tanks for raising tads... within dendrobates its debatable... possible for most species, but I believe most species have either very low tadpole population or are just those that should be kept individually. When you can keep more tadpoles individually in the same amount of space for a communal tank, I think thats a sign.... with the tinc group, communally you tend to have territories and the hormonal issue... so it could go either way. For thumbnails, I keep them in small cups in a shallow rubbermaid tub (same deal as the communal set ups) which allows me to overflow the containers... I've done this with a couple species of tinc group species as well. As for the plants absorbing chemicals in the water, this is why I include java moss... not for food, and its not usually eaten anyways.

Water wise, I've used bottled spring water or declorinated tap water with few issues, but I know there are some places I definately wouldn't dream of using the tap water. I still use my old fashioned tadpole tea... wild almond or oak leaf... mostly due to the fact that its always worked for me, and it makes some tadpole munchies while I'm at it. Fungus has never been an issue for me...


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## lacerta

Good information Corey, thanks. You say you use detritus in your tad tanks, and also you like to use a wild almond or oak leaf tea. Would a detritus layer comprised of oak leaves be sufficient, or do recommend both ? How do you prepare your tea? What would the preferred pH range be in order to inhibit fungal growth?
George


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## KeroKero

In my tanks, whatever is left over after the tads go after the leaf skeleton, is what ends up as the detritus layer... the detritus layer is basically anything left to break down in the tank... often ends up as a layer of sludge with some leaves at the top, LOL. I believe brent has a good recipe for some compost for the bottom of the tank, I wanted to try it, but could never find the post again... brent, would you like to detail your tadpole compost?

I prepare my tea by taking a handful of oak leaves, or a couple of wild almond leaves, and boiling them in a pot of water until they sink. This is a concentrate... I add this too my tadpole tanks as needed. I go more by color, getting it a light tea color, rather than pH. In the case of pH, I don't know the number for anti fungal properties, I don't think its the actual pH but properties related to the tannins themselves... you could lower the pH by other means but still have fungal problems... its more of how much tannins. Enough to discolor the water a bit usually works... dropping in some non-boiled oak leaves, wild almond leaves (I also use pine needles in the case of my water dogs) will also release tannins into the water gradually.


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## bbrock

KeroKero said:


> I believe brent has a good recipe for some compost for the bottom of the tank, I wanted to try it, but could never find the post again... brent, would you like to detail your tadpole compost?


I'm not sure it was me. My tadpole compost recipe was actually compost. I would fill a tub with RO water and throw in a fistfull or two of oak leaves. Then I would add a small scoop (about a 4 finger pinch) from the compost pile outside (complete with centipedes, isopods, etc. After all of the leaves and compost had sunk to the bottom it was ready for use. Sometimes I would used just soil instead of compost to feed the RO water with some mineral.


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## kyle1745

Any thoughts on temperatures in relation to overall success with tadpoles? I am thinking mine maybe a bit low. Currently they are around 70 or so.


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## jmoose

kyle1745 said:


> Any thoughts on temperatures in relation to overall success with tadpoles?


I also like to hear opinions about this questions from experienced guys
I raised the same question in Breeding, Eggs & Tadpoles section but did not get much answer for it.
Then I came across Chuck's opinion in "Poor quality frogs" thread that he said "keep water temperatures in the 60's to low 70's for best results". So I ditched a water heater which kept the temp @ 74F all the time. Now it fluctuates bet. 67 night and 74 day time. It seems tads are doing fine (tads were doing fine with constant 74, too)

So this leads to my next question. 
Is it ideal to keep the temp at consistently the same degree (ie 74F) or create temp fluctuation (I imagine this is how it is in rainforest ?? )
Or it doesn't matter at all ?
Thanks


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