# Plastic bags for quarantine



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I've been looking for a cheaper, flyproof, disposable quarantine container option for a while now. I've seen plastic bags used for field collection of Dendrobatids by scientists in the past, and I wondered if there was any reason that a large food-grade, BPA free polypropylene bag couldn't serve as a temporary container?


----------



## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

I believe those are used as very temporary options, probably just to transport them out of the field. I imagine that they deflate over a relatively short time frame, so probably not a great option.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

The bags I'm thinking of are of a thicker, stiff material, and would hold their shape fairly well with some substrate at the bottom. I'm primarily concerned with any leeching possibilities.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

They could be used as liners for plastic containers...though I would probably still disinfect the outer container just in case.

I have experimented with using polyclipped/rubberbanded plastic bags to display amphibians in after filling with pure O2 the way one would ship fish...but they would have to be opened to refresh the air and feed of course. I don't know how high amphibian oxygen consumption is but I did have a pair of newts survive several days in a 10 x 18 bag filled with pure oxygen and a couple inches of water.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> They could be used as liners for plastic containers...though I would probably still disinfect the outer container just in case.


That was my thought. A sweater box base, with the bag standing upright. The bags could be punched with a nail/needle to allow some air exchange, while keeping flies in.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have large, non leaching autoclavable bags at work. You should also be able to use turkey bags from the grocery store


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This method has been used for a period of up to ten days to a week provided that the water was changed daily (for example the collection and transport of Atelopus zeteki if I remember correctly)... remember that before you end up with CO2 issues, your going to run into issues with ammonia and nitrite poisoning. 

I would also suggest not using pure O2 to pressurize the bags as this can cause issues with blood pH... Instead regular pressurized atmosphere is fine as the metabolic rate of the frogs is going to slow enough (as long as you don't pack the bag like fish shipments do...). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,

Would Amquel help in situations like this?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Hello Ed,
> 
> Would Amquel help in situations like this?


Possibly, but I wouldn't want to depend on it. 

If the bag is being used as a liner inside of another enclosure, then it would just be easier to use a simple substrate that doesn't contain any large sharp pointy objects to allow for simple disposal. 
Ideally if you set up the soil/substrate in another enclosure with some plants rooting in it and let it establish, you should be able to avoid all of the issues (make sure to use DI/RO water to water it to avoid salt buildup in the soil). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

I would avoid plastic for amphibians at all costs, simply because of the hormone disrupting properties of just about all plastics.

Here's the study: Most Plastic Products Release Estrogenic Chemicals: A Potential Health Problem That Can Be Solved
And an article to break it down: BPA-Free Does Not Mean Safe. Most Plastics Leach Hormone-Disrupting Chemicals. :: My Plastic-free Life


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Fantastica said:


> I would avoid plastic for amphibians at all costs, simply because of the hormone disrupting properties of just about all plastics.
> 
> Here's the study: Most Plastic Products Release Estrogenic Chemicals: A Potential Health Problem That Can Be Solved
> And an article to break it down: BPA-Free Does Not Mean Safe. Most Plastics Leach Hormone-Disrupting Chemicals. :: My Plastic-free Life


Keep in mind that the items in question will not be heated, or washed and reused. The links you provided also seem to be primarily concerned with human interaction with these chemicals, not Anurans.

Glass would certainly be best, but it is not practical in this situation. If I don't use bags, I'll be using sweaterboxes, like I have, for the past 10 years. The goal of my post was for suggestions on mitigating potential chemical issues posed by using plastics, not discontinuing their use entirely.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Try the turkey bags Dane. Those are going to be your best bet


----------



## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Dane said:


> Keep in mind that the items in question will not be heated, or washed and reused. The links you provided also seem to be primarily concerned with human interaction with these chemicals, not Anurans.
> 
> Glass would certainly be best, but it is not practical in this situation. If I don't use bags, I'll be using sweaterboxes, like I have, for the past 10 years. The goal of my post was for suggestions on mitigating potential chemical issues posed by using plastics, not discontinuing their use entirely.


My apologies, I thought you were concerned about leeching possibilities. The study also suggests that estrogenic chemicals were being leeched even when not stressed. Considering the permeability of anuran skin, I would say it's even more harmful for frogs than for humans.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> Try the turkey bags Dane. Those are going to be your best bet


Thanks Jason, I'm on the lookout. I have some slow-cooker bags now, think those would be the same?


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

yeah, any plastic designed to contain food at high temperatures is going to be, on average, safer than plastics not designed to do so. 

Chemical leaching is also aggravated with exposure to UV light, but you wont be letting the sun hit these bags, so Im not to concerned about that. 

People are keeping frogs in plastic bins/cups/tubs all the time. I wouldnt think a food safe bag would be any more dangerous. 

Get me the type of plastic youre using and Ill get you the polymerization chemicals etc from our database if you want


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

So one of the questions that occur to me is: what about the "shoebox" growout tanks for froglets???


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Fantastica said:


> I would avoid plastic for amphibians at all costs, simply because of the hormone disrupting properties of just about all plastics.
> 
> Here's the study: Most Plastic Products Release Estrogenic Chemicals: A Potential Health Problem That Can Be Solved
> And an article to break it down: BPA-Free Does Not Mean Safe. Most Plastics Leach Hormone-Disrupting Chemicals. :: My Plastic-free Life


As noted a couple of times above, the main issue was with plastics that were heated to higher temperatures, exposed to UV lighting and then extracted with a polar solvent (salt water) or ethanol. While it is good to keep it in mind that there is the potential for risks, the bags aren't going to be exposed to those conditions and are going to be used in a temporary capacity. 
As a sort of one off, if you want to remove the easily leachable chemicals, you could soak it overnight in salt water and then rinse it well before use... 
Also, the bag question is a temporary housing issue and probably not long-term. 

Keep in mind that a lot of the things that people use in their enclosures are going to leach long-term.. for example egg crating.. now if you keep the water layer from saturating the the soil layer with water changes, your going to flush that material through the enclosure preventing contact with the frogs.... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> So one of the questions that occur to me is: what about the "shoebox" growout tanks for froglets???


There is a potential for leachage but this can be avoided or significantly minimized by simply setting up the enclosures to flow through (see my post immediately above), changing the substrate routinely (every month or two), not washing them in very hot water, heating in the microwave and avoiding exposing the interiors to UVB radiation and even letting them soak for a couple of days with repeated water changes to remove some of the leachable materials.... 

Keep in mind that some of the estrogenic chemicals like pthalates are broken down fairly rapidly by microbes in soils (see Occurrence and microbial degradation of phthalat... [Chemosphere. 2002] - PubMed - NCBI for some half lives) so this risk is reduced in a substrate containing enclosure. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

I like this salt water idea Ed- how do you know it works?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Fantastica said:


> I like this salt water idea Ed- how do you know it works?


The referenced links you provided above demonstrate that salt water is a suitable solvent for removal of estrogenic compounds for detection.. In addition, if you aren't exposing the plastic to conditions that are going to enable release of compounds (such as UV, and heat), the mobile materials are going to be on the surface of the material or close enough to be able to migrate to the surface. Since we are considering relatively short-term conditions (quarantine, rearing), you should be able to significantly reduce the leachates by soaking it initially... (PVC piping initially leaches materials but this goes down as time goes on... for example_. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------

