# lifeless froglet.... then springs to life



## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

So the last week a few of my froglets have been doing a wierd behavior. They lay lifeless on the ground like their dead. When i move them they dont move. I can put them on their back and they still wont move. They are breathing and have a heartbeat. This has happened a few times in the last week. The next day there fine and eating jumping around? all froglets are housed seperately and are all of different age. The Hurricane caused me to lose power for a few days so it got a bit warm in the house but this started before. They are fed daily, with vitamins (rhapashy)

Any idea what this could be?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I would try rotating in some different vitamins, and see if that corrects the behavior.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

They may be overheating. I has some frogs shipped in and one of them was life less due to overheating. I placed him in a humid and cool isolation tank and within the hour he was back to normal.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Are they getting enough ventilation? The hurricane also killed my power, and my viv's fan has been off. I've been noticing a drastic increase in condensation in the glass (especially where the soil is) even though I haven't been misting, and I have been taking this to be a product of respiration (like condensation on a window if you breathe on it). I've been taking care to open up the viv and blow some air into it so there's no stagnant CO2 in the bottom.


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

i have never vented any of my vivs except verts. Never had a problem. the frog is now jumping around like nothing has happened.


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## DendroRachel (Jun 21, 2011)

I've read that tadpoles can act similarly - pretend to be dead as a protective mechanism. I would imagine that in the wild froglets aren't very poisonous yet since its based on diet. Maybe this is a self-preservation mechanism as well??


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

This issue is still happening. It is an issue with my personal froglets because i recently bought some and they are not doing this behavior. It is happening to the different species of froglets i have (leucs, Azureus, Yellowback). it is also happening to older froglets (5 months). I dust daily with Rapashy supervite as well as calcium plus ICB. The vitamins are no more than 3 months old. This behavior is NOT happening to my adults.
so some things about my set ups.

none of the froglet tanks are vented (neither are my adult tanks)
fed daily and dusted as mentioned above
misted every few days
temps arent going above 80 in tanks at this point


any other ideas guys?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

A picture is worth a thousand words? Maybe some pictures might help someone point out something that could help the situation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DendroRachel said:


> I've read that tadpoles can act similarly - pretend to be dead as a protective mechanism. I would imagine that in the wild froglets aren't very poisonous yet since its based on diet. Maybe this is a self-preservation mechanism as well??


Death feigning hasn't been documented for any of the dendrobatid metamorphs, juveniles or adults studied to my knowledge and behavioral studies on a number of species started a long time ago.. I think tadpole transport was noted in D. auratus prior to the 1950s. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

nyfrogs said:


> This issue is still happening. It is an issue with my personal froglets because i recently bought some and they are not doing this behavior. It is happening to the different species of froglets i have (leucs, Azureus, Yellowback). it is also happening to older froglets (5 months). I dust daily with Rapashy supervite as well as calcium plus ICB. The vitamins are no more than 3 months old. This behavior is NOT happening to my adults.
> so some things about my set ups.
> 
> none of the froglet tanks are vented (neither are my adult tanks)
> ...


On a random whim, can you get a new containers of Rep Cal with D3 or a comparable product (essentially just a calcium with D3 supplement)? If you use that for dusting at least twice a week let us know if that fixes the issue. I have some thoughts but I'm doubting it was the Repashy. Did you let Allen know about this yet? 

Ed


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

How old are your vitamin supplements?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mitch said:


> How old are your vitamin supplements?


He said three months,

Ed


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

thanks for all the replies. Ed i will go get the stated supplements when i am out today. i havent let anyone know at this point. My question is why is this not affecting the adults???
should i not be dusting daily??? i will be taking a video of this behavior later and posting it.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Ed said:


> He said three months,
> 
> Ed


Oh... never mind then.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I have seen these seizures in juvie darts before. It has been observed to be stress induced as in shipping or crowding, as in caging for shows. Also I think a Calcium deficiency may be responsible in some cases. I would also suggest changing the substrate in the cage housing the seizing frogs. Also try to maintain temps around low 70's, I have seen warmer temps aggrevate this .


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

nyfrogs said:


> This issue is still happening. It is an issue with my personal froglets because i recently bought some and they are not doing this behavior. It is happening to the different species of froglets i have (leucs, Azureus, Yellowback). it is also happening to older froglets (5 months). I dust daily with Rapashy supervite as well as calcium plus ICB. The vitamins are no more than 3 months old. This behavior is NOT happening to my adults.
> so some things about my set ups.
> 
> none of the froglet tanks are vented (neither are my adult tanks)
> ...


Why supervite on top of Calcium Plus? Calcium Plus already has the vitamins in it.

Ed, any chance feeding both of those daily could cause hypervitaminosis of some kind or mess with one of those oft-mentioned ratios?

Also, one would think that since only so much powder can stick to each fly, doubling the amount of vitamins without doubling calcium effectively lowers the amount of calcium present on each fly... not sure if that could pose a problem in some frogs?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Sounds nutritional to me Stan.

My first thoughts:

1. calcium/mineral deficiency
2. heat stress
3. CO2 build up
4. over supplementation?

My first step would be to secure a 'perfect' environment if not already

1. vent tank, temps 72F, new substrate if waterlogged.

Then Calcium gluconate diluted in Amphibian Ringers dripped onto the frogs 1-2 drops/day [just my step, not really proven or necessarily the only way to rescue frogs in trouble].

Rep-Cal dusted FF

Avoid vitamin/ calcium mixing, rather use a calcium supplement one day, and a vitamin supplement another [again, my way, ? folklore]


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shawn, hit the list pretty much how I would have gone about the issues. Calcium gluconate is strongly recommended in the literature for hypocalcemia in anurans (if they are also getting D3 otherwise it doesn't help). 

If mixing the two powders together changes the total calcium available, or the ratios of A to D3 to E then you can get deficiencies. 

Rotating isn't folklore.. It is what I suggested doing at the time due to the lack of good supplements availability due to a study done on older supplements indicating issues between batches and brands as well as reducing the risk of overdosing. 

Ed


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

Thanks again guys for the information. what i have done is:
vented the tanks, temps are still 77
i got a brand new rep-cal with d3 and will start using that and swapping it out every other day with the rapashy supervite. 
shawn you spoke of calcium liquid and ringers? any good info on this procedure? at this time it has only affected i older 5 month old leuc, and 2-4 1 month old yellow backs and Azureus.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Stan
I got the ringers from Oz, although I know there is a recipe online....I think it is easier just to buy a small bottle and keep it refrigerated.

The Calcium gluconate 23% you can get online easily. I get mine from a local 'feed/cattle' store. Cheap.

I mix a 10% soln and drop 3-4 drops on the frogs back every day until they 'recover'

Shawn


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## tulip55555 (Aug 31, 2011)

I read this the other day about C02 poisoning....

Dart Den • View topic - CO2 Dangers in non-vented Vivaria


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## nyfrogs (May 1, 2005)

thanks Tulip
i have done everything shawn and Ed suggested and all are well and acting normal. i believe it was a mix of heat and wrong cocktail of suppliments


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## tulip55555 (Aug 31, 2011)

Yea...I see where C02 was mentioned already. Hadn't caught that when I read it before.
I'm happy to hear everyone is doing better


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## Allen Repashy (Jul 17, 2009)

Hey Guys,

I just found this thread.....

As pointed out, I wouldn't use SuperVite AND Calcium Plus together as it can effect the balance of vitamins to minerals. 

Once comment on Calcium gluconate..... 

My RescueCal + uses Calcium lactate gluconate, (a bonded combination ) which is a water soluble calcium that has nearly three times the available soluble calcium as Calcium gluconate alone..... I also have this combined with Magnesium gluconate in a 10:1 ratio (levels found in bone) because Magnesium is essential in the uptake of calcium. It also has the other essential electrolytes..... Sodium, Potassium, Chloride in balanced levels....

It comes in a powder that you just mix with water at the recommended ratio. I put a lot of work into it and think you will see much better results than just using Calcium gluconate or something like Neo Calglucon.

One thing to remember no matter what type of Calcium you are using, is that it is worthless without either UVB, or D3 supplementation. 

There is nothing better than even a few minutes in natural sunlight. No lights can compare. I recommend that whenever possible, a half hour a day of even cloudy day sunlight will work miracles..... Of course, doing this with dendros is a different story than a Bearded Dragon or Chameleon. 

People often ask me why I don't put D3 in the RescueCal and the answer is simple..... Vitamin D is a fat soluble vitamin (meaning soluble in oil or alcohol) and if it was mixed into a water solution, it would just float to the top and not evenly mix into the solution...... So make sure if you have an animal that has crashed, you provide supplemental D3 in therapeutically high levels (such as HyD) or better yet, UVB bulbs or natural sunlight. I know frogs can be quite sensitive compared to lizards, so take care in your methods. 

Allen


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