# Many Shipments of Pumilo ?



## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Just read on another board that there are more shipments of pumilo due in. Has anyone heard about this? and what is the status of that first shipment?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Yes, there are suppose to be more pumilio coming in. I would like to suggest people not to buy frogs they won't be able to care for, or have the experience to do so. There will be a couple different morphs coming in, and some are much better for the less experienced (like bastimentos morphs and bri-bri)... so don't break your wallet for something you may lose. Some of the pumilio are *very* small compared to others, so the larger ones would be better if you are going to get some no matter what. Hopefully, everyone will have success with them and we will see some nice CB young in a year or so from arrival.


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## ChrisMc (Mar 7, 2004)

Are these different than the ones from Seaside Reptiles? Did they ever come in? Who is importing the new batch and what morphs will be included, just curious?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I just hope some experienced people get these and breed them.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Other people should be getting in some, but I am not sure who besides Seaside. I have also heard rumor that the ones for Seaside have come in, but don't know if that is true and in what condition they have arrived in. Once again, everyone should consider buying the more common morphs and leave the more rare ones for the better breeders. I just hope that everyone doesn't go pumilio crazy and buy frogs they will never breed, and may even lose due to inexperience... but more money then experience is out there, so who knows.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

I started this topic up again due to the fact that I am interested in the different morphs of auratus and not so much the pumilo's at this time. I agree with Jbeetle in that people who have had successful experiences in raising and breeding pumilo should be the ones who get these beautiful little frogs in to work with. 
Another point to bring up is that if there are more shipments coming in shortly then the price should be dropping due to competition or sensible pricing.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Glad to hear you agree, and I am even more excited about the fact that you are more interested in the auratus lol! That's awesome. I also hope some cool auratus come in, but I have yet to hear what morphs they are... jsut assorted which doesn't help much lol. You are also right about the prices, so they should come down to a more reasonable price for a farm rasied frog.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2004)

Hey Tim Stout which board did you read this information from? Can you provide a link?



TimStout said:


> Just read on another board that there are more shipments of pumilo due in. Has anyone heard about this? and what is the status of that first shipment?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

It was probably on frognet, and there really wasn't anymore info then posted here.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Thats correct. 
I guess the info is not very public as of yet.


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## Michael Shrom (May 20, 2004)

I've heard so many different stories about these frogs. Some pumilio for research did come in. I heard that Seaside has an exclusive with the exporter for the U.S. For commercial sales. As far as I can tell this is accurate. It is possible that pumilio could come in that were exported to other countries and then re-exported to the U.S. Lots of frogs have been exported from Europe in the past. People in the U.S. have a reputation for paying top dollar for their frogs.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I imagine that once the test shipments come in and the kinks are worked out with F&W, we are likely to see a fairly steady influx of these guys. I think an exclusive is unlikely, and the prices will probably get a little better. After all, if pumilio are being farmed in any commercially viable numbers (which I have been told they are--in nice facilities), the farmers are going to want to ship as many as possible to the highest paying markets available.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2004)

HI,
As far as I know there have been no U.S. shipments to the public. It is not a matter of what the Panamanian farmers or anyone involved in the hobby would like to happen. CITES regulates EXACTLY how many frogs will leave the country per year and EXACTLY what species will leave. As far as the F+W issue goes, I very much doubt that there will ever be an iron large enough for the task. There is one final issue we realy need to delve into again. These specific frogs are not for everyone. If they are ever imported in large numbers, I hope that there are larger numbers of people to properly care for them and get them breeding. There is a reason some throw these awsome frogs into a "thumbnail" grouping.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

I'd say if you know how to master culturing FFs without additional chemicals, you are as good as anybody in keeping pumilios or other rare frogs. 

Well, that and how to deal with sick frogs (ie:know how to give proper med).

I think people tend to complicate things, it's really not all that hard.

SB


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

steelcube said:


> I'd say if you know how to master culturing FFs without additional chemicals, you are as good as anybody in keeping pumilios or other rare frogs.
> 
> Well, that and how to deal with sick frogs (ie:know how to give proper med).
> 
> ...



Yes, its true, any idiot that can culture ff's can keep pumilio alive (if they are CB). Newbies should not try to keep WC pumilio if they come in. And, there's always the fact that newbies aren't likely to have springtails ready for offspring... and lets face it. We want to create a CB population of any pumilio that might come in. If/when they come in, I'd say wait a year until guys like Pat Nabors are producing offspring. If you buy WC be prepared for losses - it happens. Are you ready to lose $200 + for each frog lost?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

If it wasn't all that hard to keep pumilio and histos alive, healthy and producing offspring regularly, they would all be established in the hobby like auratus, azureus and tincs. They aren't though and there is a reason for that. Yes culturing ff's isn't rocket science but keeping the animals fed is only one small part of husbandry. I am not saying a new frogger could not keep and breed pumilio, just saying there are other frogs they are more likely to have success with when they are just starting out. There are things you learn and techniques in husbandry that only come through experience working with lots of different animals over a period of time. That being said, if someone new has the cash to throw at rare frogs, he has just as much of a right to buy them as I do. They just need to realize that things can go south as they get the "kinks" worked out of their own husbandry techniques.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> HI,
> As far as I know there have been no U.S. shipments to the public. It is not a matter of what the Panamanian farmers or anyone involved in the hobby would like to happen. CITES regulates EXACTLY how many frogs will leave the country per year and EXACTLY what species will leave. As far as the F+W issue goes, I very much doubt that there will ever be an iron large enough for the task.


CITES is a procedural difficulty that has been around in this hobby even when pumilio were $30 each. Sure, numbers ebb and flow as quotas change. That will always be a problem. However, if there are legitimate farms that stand to make a profit by export without harming WC populations, they will find a way to ameliorate the quotas through political action. Capitalism has a habit of making things happen. It's just a matter of time.

As far as establishing pumilio in the hobby, I fully agree that there needs to be a concerted effort to establish CB populations. I believe that many people with the talent and experience to do so are getting involved with the upcoming imports. It is definitely an exciting time in our hobby.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Ok I guess this can be a long one...let me boil it down to one thing: I am not talking about someone who never has any experience in keeping animals.. 

read my post, you gotta have some experience taking care of frogs to know those two things... hence I wrote dealing with sick frogs.

I agree egg feeders are harder to breed. Even the experienced ones can't get some of them to breed regularly... so why not the less experienced ones take a shot at them?? Less experienced doesn't mean that they are idiots and don't know how to buy a springtails culture.


SB


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

steelcube said:


> ... so why not the less experienced ones take a shot at them?? Less experienced doesn't mean that they are idiots and don't know how to buy a springtails culture.
> 
> 
> SB


Why not? How about because less experienced people "took a shot" at keeping blue jeans pumilio back when they were $30 each. Where are they now? 

Also, yes, less experienced can buy spingtail cultures. But SHOULD KNOW HOW DO CULTURE THEIR OWN. 

I agree with Robb on this one. There is certain knowledge you acquire by working with frogs over time. If you have raised froglets, got them to adult size, bred them, and then raised their froglets - their is a certain amount of unteachable knowledge that comes to you. You only get it through experience. Obviously, I can't stop anyone from ordering, nor do I want to. I would hope they would use their own common sense and not order animals for instant gratification and "just because I have the money". 

Rompida, stepping down from his very tall soapbox


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

BJ pumilios came into the US in such a bad shape and they were channeled thru some dealers.

Those who still have some of them, did not get their BJs from these dealers...


SB

This is similar to what I talked to Brent on frognet and I guess people have different opinions... which is cool with me.

_edited for grammar_


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2004)

An other thing to consider is the issue of the auratus and tree frogs that come in with the pumilio. It has been a while since the "original " Glen shipment but I am fairly sure that for every pumilio that comes in ten auratus and five red eyed tree are to be shipped. Lets say we get to a point where a thousand pumilio come in, how do you sell those fifteen thousand frogs to the public ? Those morphs are much easier to breed and are less desirous to most.

Rich


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Unfortunately most of the thousands of auratus that will come in are probably doomed due to lack of interest in the market. Sure some will be purchased but my guess is only a small percentage, especially if they are all your standard green and blacks. I have never understood why they make you buy x number of auratus for every pumilio. It seems like they should simply charge more for the pumilio and leave the auratus in Panama. I don't understand what they get out of moving a ton of auratus. There must be something going on we don't know about. If I had the money I would pay for them all to be shipped back to Panama.

Back on the "newbie" thing, I will agree that if a new frogger wants to try his hand at WC pumilio, more power to them, as long as they realize it is not the best choice for a starter frog. It's not like the new froggers are going to buy them all up and the more experienced guys won't get to work with them.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I realize that I am kind of taking both sides here but here is another reason for a new person not to get WC pumilio as their first animals:

If you spend over $1000 on WC pumilio for your first frogs and you lose 2 or 3 or maybe even all of them (which is not unlikely), there is a pretty good chance that you will become frustrated and give up on the hobby. Whereas if you had spent $100 on some CB auratus or tincs, and within a year you are producing animals (also not unlikely), you are more likely to stay in the hobby and gain the experience that will no doubt help you in keeping "harder" frogs.

Just another thought.
Robb


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

Talk of any importation at this time seems to be nothing more than speculation. We can talk all we want about this shipment or that shipment actually happening but unitl the frogs are in the US then it's nothing more than speculation. 

I've heard similar stories about the auratus and it really is a shame. 

On to the newbies...... I think that everyone will have a shot at getting these guys if the more experienced breeders recieve them first and are able to produce them on a steady basis. 

Anyone thinking about getting any type of thumbnail should first try their hand at springtails and have a reliable supply. Thumbnails just are not that difficult. I know of people who have been in the hobby for less than a year that have pumilio. I know of people in the hobby less than six months with Retics. They do well with them. As with anything the proper amount of education and planning is the key.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2004)

froglady said:


> Talk of any importation at this time seems to be nothing more than speculation. We can talk all we want about this shipment or that shipment actually happening but unitl the frogs are in the US then it's nothing more than speculation.
> 
> I've heard similar stories about the auratus and it really is a shame.
> 
> ...


I agree!
One thing I have noticed is the people who work and have bred these frogs don't seem to care much to work with these imports that are coming in. I also feel that no matter what you say or try and push isn't going to stop folks from buying these frogs if they want them. I agree that people who have worked with them should get them first so we can get the CB going on. But life is sad and the highest bidder always wins. You guys are also missing the fact allot of newbies get into the hobby wanting the these frogs off top and most folks go for the goal the first time and will skip the important stuff and learn the hard way.  So my opion is that you all should stop pushing any issue tell it gets there.


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## C.A.Caron (Apr 30, 2004)

Hey guys, I am what you could call a complete newbie in this hobby and I don't know if I am the exception but I personnally think that the regular green and black auratus are prettier than the BJ pumilio. Its a personnal thing really. I'm pretty sure that most of the peoples that will buy those guys are "experienced" peoples.

I will definately buy some auratus before any pumilio. :wink: 

Ok back to work...


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I don't think any of us are "pushing" things or ideas on people. We are all simply providing our opinions and some facts, hopefully for the benefit of the community as a whole, which is one of the stated goals of this board. Without opinions this board would be empty. 

Robb


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You're wrong there.

The highest bid often wins, but not always.

I *will*, and do, consider *who* I'm selling frogs to. They do not go to the highest bidder.

s


Beriss said:


> ... But life is sad and the highest bidder always wins.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2004)

Bagh! I misread your post scott your right as far as not always winning.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2004)

I would have to respectfully disagree with a blanket statement that "thumbs " are not that difficult. Every species of thumbnail that I have come across have a different set of needs. The comfort zones are different, humidity, food requirements, water features, ect. ,ect. 

How many threads have been started by seasoned froggers wondering why a sexed pair has not , as of yet, started breeding ? Each of those threads have answers, tips, guesses, all toward a goal of finding out what is wrong and getting these beauties breeding. 

There are still far more questions than answers. I agree that anyone should have access to cool frogs, I know of new froggers who have great "luck" but I also read of a lot of problems people have with the "easier" frogs. There is most deffinately no substitute for experience with the trickier morphs.

It is my hope that if/when the elusive shipments do come in, those with productive prior wc pumilio experience are the bulk of the buyers. It would be great if this time next year we could be buying cb s from any pumilio coming in.

I also agree with C.A., auratus are beautiful frogs.

Good luck to all involved,

Rich


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> I would have to respectfully disagree with a blanket statement that "thumbs " are not that difficult. Every species of thumbnail that I have come across have a different set of needs. The comfort zones are different, humidity, food requirements, water features, ect. ,ect.


Same can be said with Auratus which most people consider a good starter frog. There are geographical differences for almost every different morph. Geographical differences also means that there are enviromental differences for almost every different morph. I know seasoned breeders that have difficulty breeding Luecs / Auratus /Azureus (the list can go on and on) and yet some 'beginners' who can't get them to stop. Point is with the proper education and research even thumbs and pumilio can be relatively easy to care for.

Don't get me wrong, my frogs will NEVER go to the highest bidder. I have to know that you have a handle on things before I do sell - say a Retic to you, but, truly they just aren't that hard..........

Additionally it is my humble opinion that 'farm-raised' animals should be treated as wild caught and be sent only to people that have the ability to care for wild caught animals. Leave them to experienced breeders / importers. The likelihood of wild caught being sick from stress of shipping and dieing is much greater than captive bred. Experienced breeders generally have the knowledge and experience to get wild caught through the transition period. Additionally, experienced breeders generally will have the proper medication before something occurs so that they can react promptly if the new arrivals do need additional care.

Someone on Frognet mentioned awhile back about a "Froggie-arms race" (or some phrase similar to it). This pumilio drama reminds me greatly of this. I think some people just want the newest 'toy' rather than what's best for the frogs and hobby as a whole. It's disappointing to me when I see instances such as this.


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