# Roaches for frogs/darts?



## Dendrobait

It seems to be a new thing in the reptile/invertebrate world but has anyone used any kind of roaches with dart frogs? 3 species which might work would be lobsters(Nauphoeta cinerea), Green banana roaches(Panchlora nivea), and Blatta lateralis. I recall someone who kept dartfrogs on the side of herps saying he used lobster nymphs for his darts.


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## Dancing frogs

I remember that...
I am currently trying blatta latteralis (my roaches should be coming of breeding age soon) I am trying something similar to the way one would breed crickets for pdf use...collecting eggs (in this case, egg cases) and hatching them separate so as to avoid having to try and separtate them.

I'll let y'all know how it turns out when it turns out.

The green banana roaches sound like they could work, but what turned me away is they fly, and you would have to dig through the substrate to find the small ones...perhaps some way to separate the big ones could work here too. Maybee taking out the adults and transfering them to a new container?


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## Dendrobait

I mentioned banana roaches just off of the size of the nymphs. I suppose you could try to sift the nymphs out of the substrate but that would be a pain. Wonder if the adults could just live in the terrarium with the darts?


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## Guest

*Roaches for darts*

I have used N. cinerea (lobster roach) nymphs for darts. My larger tincs, mints and my aurotaenia would all consume the smaller roaches. My treefrogs would eat the larger roaches and adult sizes. The problems with this roach species however are its speed, quick to hide if uneaten and their ability to climb glass or just about any other surface for that matter, escape possibilities. They do however breed very quickly and provide an inexpensive alternative to buying crickets. They do not smell if the enclosure is cleaned a couple of times a year and they do not make noise. While lobsters are easy to get started with looking into a couple of the non-climbing species may be worthwhile to preserve your sanity and that of your family, spouse when dealing with esapees. Let me know if I can provide you with any other information.


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## Dendrobait

Which non climber would you be talking of? I hear Blatta lateralis can survive in houses in some mild areas.


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## Guest

*Roaches*

Lateralis was one of them. Blaptica dubia would be another. The nymphs may be a bit large for some frogs though. I should be working with this species shortly as the lobsters proved to be a pain in containing them, possible but a pain. I would give a call or e-mail to one of the roach breeders and determine the dubia nymph sizes and go from there.


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## Catfur

Dubia nymphs are about the 3/16" and pretty fat/broad, only food for the biggest eaters in dart land (same goes for most of the Blaberus tribe). Blatta lateralis nymphs run about 3/32" to 1/8" but are substantially skinnier, a bit bigger than a hydei. Gyna spp. nymphs are very small, but they are quite difficult to breed in large numbers, and pricey to start out with. I don't really know about sizes for other roachs personally.


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## KeroKero

I was hoping to keep a non-glass climbing species for my frogs, originally wanted to keep _Blaptica dubia_ but I'm going to hold off til I get into the seriously larger PDFs that are more likely to eat the nymphs (even my treefrogs right now are small, so this species is less appealing until I start working with larger TF species).

I'm a bit more enthusiastic about _Blatta lateralis_, as they are smaller, and non-climbers. They due tend to be fast, but as long as they don't climb I think thats only a good thing lol, it'll get the frogs' attentions!

I'm hoping that I can "bowl feed" these roaches to my frogs - putting them in glazed ceramic saucers (the glaze is actually glass - so non-glass climbers in theory shouldn't be able to get out of the bowl even if its shallow!) and then letting my frogs have at it. Since the only roach species I've actually worked with are lobsters (climbers that I LOATHE), germans (ok, I didn't really work with them, but they were around), and _Blaberus giganteus_, the Giant cave roaches, which were pets (and I want to get again, lol). I have no experience with non-climbers as feeders (only the lobster roaches were attempted to be used as feeders) and I'd like some confirmation that I could bowl feed with these - otherwise they'll just bury into the substrate and not get eaten lol.

What ever happened to that tiny roach species that FlyCulture was suppose to be working with? Anyone ever find out what species it was?


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## Guest

The lateralis can be fed in dishes or free range, they have the added advantage over other non climbing roach species in that they also do not burrow. Their tiny size as hatchlings would lead me to think they would be a great dartfrog food... also you could take a few egg cases, (each of which will hatch out 10-20 tiny nymphs every 2 weeks to 20 days) every month and throw them into your vivs ensuring a steady backup supply of food. Theyre also extremely soft bodied in comparison to most roaches.. Ive learned I can feed alot of my animals a lateralis the size of a dubia that would be too big for the same animals, simply because theyre so squishy. They also breed at least as fast as lobster roaches.. Id advise temps in the low to mid 90s and just feed the heck out of them. Within a month to 6 weeks of getting adults your colony will start to explode. I cull out egg cases every ten days to two weeks and place them in deli cups on some moist bed a beast and incubate them seprately to have a constant supply of tiny feeders with no need for sorting.

The dubia would be great for bigger darts in their smallest stages, but youd probably see their usefulness die off quickly after the one or two week mark due to size increase, in the case of large collections youd have to cull daily to ensure a steady supply of only the smallest nymphs. Dubia are also slower breeders, with females giving live birth to 10-30 babies every 4-6 weeks. Another strike against them in the race for large amounts of small live foods is the fact that after they outlive their usefulness to as a feeder (assuming you dont have anything larger than dartfrogs to feed) there is another 6 month wait until they are of reproductive age.

The banana roaches can be cultured in small enough enclosures (Gallon jars, Critter keepers.. a few people have told me the best method is a homemade plexiglass or acrylic box with doors in the top and sides with lots of ventilation) that you can pop them in the fridge for ten minutes or so and that makes dealing with them a breeze, they cant fly for quite some time after that and move very very slowly.

Id avoid lobsters myself.. little climbing racecars. 

I breed alot of geckos and have yet to get into dartfrogs as Im still in the research phase, so I cant speak from experience, but I feed the lateralis (hatchlings-2 weeks old) to baby Sphaerodactylus and Gonatodes as a staple with backup feeder sources being springtails, fruit flies and isopods, with no problems whatsoever.


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## Guest

Just starting with lateralis myself, and for the reasons posted above looks like the best choice. 

I also ordered this sorter dohickey:
http://www.thecarnivorousorchid.com/sun ... gory&id=10


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## Guest

yeah that roach sorter is pretty nice, I actually made something similar myself just using small rubbermaids that would stack when lidless and cut out the bottoms and put 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 inch mesh in each respectively..

Im sure the lateralis will work great for your animals! Ive never had anything turn them down (or roaches in general actually). I think once people see how easy they are to contain and breed life will become alot easier for many hobbyists. One thing I did notice when I switched over from crickets to lateralis/roaches in general is that my hatchlings all seemed to grow faster on them. Unfortunately I didnt keep track of weights back when I was starting out so I can only provide that as unbacked anecdotal information.


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## Dancing frogs

Just started to find egg cases from mine...they remind me of kidney beans :twisted:


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## Guest

They always make me think of brown tylenols, lol. I really love the fact these guys are egg layers though.. if I leave town I just toss a few cases in with my hatchling geckos and I have nothing to worry about.


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## Dancing frogs

How long for them to hatch?


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## Guest

from laying generally about 2-3 weeks at 85-90 degrees.


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## Guest

I wanted to add a small note here, if you buy lateralis, use rubbermaid containers, other brands of bins oftentimes have a texture that is barely detectable to human touch, but the lateralis have no problems goinng up and out of them. Ive had this problem with colored sterilite bins, the clear ones are ok. I guess whatever you do, check the inside thoroughly for any traces of a texture before purchasing!

Tom


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## defaced

Since you mention their housing, where can I get care info for lateralis?


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## Guest

I dont know of any caresheets out there specifically for lateralis, I think i covered the basics in my initial post. If the admins here would like, I can write up a comprehensive lateralis/roach caresheet for the sticky thread.


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## Dancing frogs

I'm keeping mine pretty much the same way I keep Crix, in the afformentioned rubbermaid bin (I use a mixture of petroleum jelly and mineral oil smeared around the top of the bin...just in case), no substrate, a pile of eggcrates, food, water.
Don't know yet if the egg cases I collected are good, I would imagine they would dry out in that kind of environment if left too long...

....Clayton has some good roach tips...

"They're roaches!"


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## Catfur

defaced said:


> Since you mention their housing, where can I get care info for lateralis?


Keep 'em warm, wet and fed. They haven't managed to infest every warm continent on the planet by being difficult.


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## Guest

Yeah they definitely arent difficult.


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## Dancing frogs

Any ideas what the reproductive span is for the latteralis?
In the "steal the eggs" stratagy, obviously, eventually I'll have to add back to the colony...but when?


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## Guest

Well, in my setups the females will lay both directly onto the substrate and will glue the eggs to the egg cartons. I take the egg cartons and remove those and leave the ones on the floor in my colony to hatch and replenish it.


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## Dendrobait

on Blatta lateralis, has anyone had any escapes? How long do they last? Hisser nymphs I know from personal experience :lol: keel over in a few days or less outside here in CA. I've heard Blatta lateralis can survive outdoors in Southern California(think I came across one once during a camping trip) and is a new pest species in AZ however. I'm in Central CA.


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## Guest

Being in Minnesota Ive had no problems with escapees, I generally find them dried out and dead within a few weeks. I do know these guys could be a problem in warmer climates. Here is the caveat though, males are great jumpers while females are not. Ive never ever had a female escape on me. I think the differences in mobility between the sexes, along with good husbandry practices can make them pretty worry free even in hotter climes. On the other hand, it is always a possibility, but not like it is with Lobster Roaches.


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## Dendrobait

The thing is that a search online has not revealed any cases of lobster roaches actually becoming pests...but has with Blatta lateralis. That being said, crickets were once pests. 

I myself, for example, would feel more comfy with green bananas opposed to lobsters as green banana roaches do not look like pest species. 

If someone in CA has kept them I'd love to hear about it. They sound like great feeders but I'd rather not risk getting in trouble with escapes.


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## Guest

I know of two people personally in the US with lobster infestations, one lives in Kansas and the other in Alabama. The only lateralis infestations Ive heard of were in europe (not that it matters really). The guy who runs Blaberus.com is actually located in southern (I think) CA, and has tens of thousands of the little creepy crawlies along with a few dozen other roach species. Toss him and email, Ive talked to him about the same thing before.


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## Dendrobait

Hehe that is funny...feeders running around.

On the "worst case scenario side" how hard are they to get rid of? Wonder if you could just vacuum them all up or something. Since B. lateralis can't climb I'd imagine it would be less easy for this one to infest stuff.

I'll email James on it...thanks for the suggestion!


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## Guest

They can climb things with a texture to them remember! I lay out roach traps for them, and I often just find them tangled in the carpet, weak and dying. Its pretty pathetic really. All I ever catch in my roach traps are the occasional male lateralis or dubia nymph that went flying when I knock them off their egg carton. 

The nice thing, as far as all this goes where cultured insects are concerned, at least in my opinion is they are raised under optimum conditions, away from all pesticides, with lots of food and water readily available. 

So in your culture theyre extremely hardy etc, but outside of it when they start coming into contact with cooler temps, less food, no water and a variety of household chemicals, not including pesticides/traps you may employ to forestall a potential problem, the odds of any even surviving, let alone long enough to find a mate, lay eggs (which may just dry out in your home) and get a population going is pretty low I would guess. Of course.. Ive never had an escaped female lateralis, I imagine things could get a little more serious if that were to happen, they can produce an egg case every few days for several weeks from one mating. My rule would be, if I was sorting roaches and a female hit the ground.. just stomp her, lol. Perhaps in all honesty we need to think of any insects we culture as a potential pests under the right conditions, your comment about crickets is really spot on.


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah...I had crickets start breeding under my fridge last winter...at first I thought it was just the compresser on the fridge chirping (it is an old fridge)...some time later, I still heard the chirp while the fridge was silent, and figured it was crickets, but thought they would just die...they didn't!
I pulled out the fridge, and by that time there were full grown crickets and pinheads jumping around....and crawling into where the linoleum had peeled up from the heat of the compressor.
After that, I found out that the "sticky traps" sold for mice work real well for that purpose.

I also was told most roaches don't do well outside of a colony, even if conitions are favorable.

Even so, I am exercising utmost caution when working with the roaches...since I live in an apartment, if there ever was an infestation, and an exterminator was called...nuff said!


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## themann42

one thing that was pointed out that i too really like is that green banana roaches don't look like a common roach. i don't know why but i'd rather have roaches in my room that don't actually look like your common roach. plus i wouldn't have to tell my mom what exactly they are lol. also their small adult size (1 inch female, 1/2 inch male) would mean that they'd likely stay at a good feeding size longer. i think it's time for somebody to establish a flightless green banana culture.

about temperatures, i had no idea they liked it so hot. would they still be able to live at room temperature, say about 70 degrees during the day? my guess (hope), is that they'd still breed, just maybe not as prolifically. i'm not looking to feed many animals (maybe 4), so if it slowed down their breeding rate too it shouldn't be a big problem, i'd just get another culture going.

how many should you start with to get a colony going? i read one site that suggested buying enough to be able to sex out 1 male and 3 females. another site said to buy at least 100 to start a breeding colony. seems like quite a range. would an order of 10 be ok?

edit: here's a caresheet i found for lateralis, i know somebody earlier asked for one
http://www.nyworms.com/turkistancare.htm

one thing i noticed is it said minimum of 70 degrees. maybe i could get away with a couple degrees cooler, but they likely won't breed well.

also, they recommend that water gel stuff. i've never used it, anybody know how fast they'd go through it?


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## KeroKero

Flightless green banana culture? I didn't think the flying was as much of a problem as their climbing ability... and legless roaches wouldn't help much. I do think they are cool roaches... but I guess i'll personally stick with the stuff that stays in a bowl for now.


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## Guest

Id definitely get at least 100 to start with to have any sort of fast reproduction, if you only have a few animals maybe 4 or 5 females and a few males would do. 70 degrees is way way lower than I would keep them, Id suggest at the very least 85 degrees.

Only use water gel as a supplemental water and food items like apples, oranges, potatos, yams, pears, melon which also serve as water sources. Youll also need some sort of good quality dry diet to ensure your giving your animals highly nutritious feeders. Species like B. dubia reproduce poorly with no fruit in their diet. I use water crystals once a week in conjunction with a regular feeding to help keep the humidity high and ensure a water source for when/if the fruit is completely eaten.

Ive never worked with green banana roaches myself, but from what Ive read is you make the colony small enough to fit into your refrigerator, at feeding times let them cool for about 15 minutes and they can barely move for some time. Long enough to be put into the vivarium at the very least Id think.


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## themann42

darn i was hoping i could get away with lower temps. i wanted to be able to stick the container in a drawer, but that would be difficult if i have to heat it. i really don't want a tank of food out where it's visible. i keep all my fruit flies in a drawer. we really have no room in our fridge, so they'd have to be in containers the size of the 32oz ones for fruit flies, and i doubt that's big enough. 

i read a lot of people just use dog food and water gel, so thanks for the info on fruits. i'll make sure to add some of that too.

oh and it is only for a few animals. two klemmeri, and two mantids. the mantids only get 1.5 inches and would only need a couple a week. i've never had klemmeri so i'm not sure how much they'll eat.


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## Sh0e

*containment*

I have a colony of several thousand lobster roaches. I also breed madagascar hissers and orange heads, neither of thos nymphs would be the right size to feed darts though. the easiest way i've found to breed lobster roaches is in large plastic bins. i line the inside with vasoline about a foot above the substrate. no escapes yet and it's been well over a year of breeding. the roaches will not even approach the vasoline. this does not work with crix though.


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## themann42

if you use a plastic bin, how do you heat it? i think i could make room for something like that, but i was planning on using one of those stick on heaters which prolly wouldn't be good for plastic. about how large is large? would one about the size of 5 gallon tank be good? thanks for the feedback.


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## Sh0e

the breeding room stays at 75, i don't actually bother heating the roaches, and they do fine. you could use heat tape on the outside or heat cable though if you wanted to heat the substrate, that would probably speed up growth. i had some breeding in a 90 gal tank, but i've since condensed into i believe they are 64 quart sterolite tubs. the dimensions are about 2'h x 2'w x 3'l. cypress mulch is used for the substrate. i have pleanty of egg crate in there too. we feed them fish food, crix yummies, and veggies. they will eat anything. i spray them down every now and then too, or else they will begin to eat each other to get moisture. hope this helps.


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## Sh0e

i would go with a 10 gal for personal breeding. egg crate will increase the surface area in your tank and allow for more insects. you could also use paper towel tubes or crumpled cardboard. it's very easy, i don't know why they are so expensive.


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## themann42

well i just found in some classifieds on another forum a guy will sell 100 lateralis for $25 shipped. most places you'd only get 10 for that much, so i think i'm going to order them later today. i will try to find the largest plastic tub i can that fits in the space i have, which would fit something around 7 or so gallons worth if i can find one with the right dimensions. i don't think i'll need many, but if i need to i could always set up another container later.


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## Sh0e

not bad, 25 + shipping would buy you about 150 lobster roaches, but i don't have many adults at the moment. i sell them 6 for $1.


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## Sh0e

hell, i might buy some from you after you get your colony established.


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## rozdaboff

Haven't commented much on this thread yet - but I have had experience with a few roach species when I was feeding them to my chameleons.

I had a very large culture of P. nivea (Green Cuban Banana roach) going before I sold it off. A couple of things to think about. They like it moist. I had a layer of substrate in their container that I would mist intermittently. They love to eat fruit - weren't so hot on the gutload, but they didn't seem to be biting each other's wings as some of the higher protein requiring roaches do - so I guess their protein intake was sufficient. Once you get a good number in the colony - they will breed fast. Just set them up warm.

The adults are fast - the flying isn't as much as a problem (not really flying as fluttering), as is the race that the adults make up the sides of the container when you open it. Bug-stop and vaseline barriers were useless. The nymphs aren't too much of a problem - most of the time burrow in the soil. The other MAJOR problem I had was - due to their diet of fruit and moist conditions in their container it was the ideal breeding ground for fruit flies. Take some of our nice flightless mels and just a couple wild ones, and you will have the flying variety all over your house. The roaches need ventilation - so if you set up a container, make sure to keep this in mind - maybe use No-See-Em mesh or something.


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## defaced

That guy is StarryNightExotics who's posted alot of good info in this thread. I ordered some, so I'll have some input about how I set them up soon.


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## Sh0e

i have not worked with this species yet, from what i've read i like the fact that they stay small, i don't like the fact that they are so fast. i'm interested to hear how it goes.


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## themann42

what kind did u order defaced?

i didn't realise the green banana roaches could climb. i thought they could just fly. i'd say they're definately not an option for me now. also being a burrowing species would make them more difficult. 

with lateralis, they don't burrow, so no substrate is needed. that would probably help with the fruit fly issue. it makes it really easy to clean too. also makes them easier to find for the animals in their cage. staying small is always a plus. i don't think their speed will matter since they can't climb to run away. they'll just be doing laps around the bottom of the cage. one last thing i think would be nice is they're not livebearers, they lay egg sacks (usually of 18 nymphs i read). you could probably pull the egg sacks out of the breeding cage, put it in a little fruit fly container, and hatch them in there for easy seperation.


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## defaced

100 Lateralis and 10 egg sacks for immediate feeding.


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## Dancing frogs

FYI:
A lot of people selling latteralis are claiming they only get as big as a cricket...
Mine seem to be about twice that size...
Still waiting for the eggs to hatch!


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## Guest

Id say the adult lateralis is about 8 mm longer than your average adult house cricket. The sizes are very comparable though, i think people give the cricket comparison to show that sizewise these guys are just as useful.


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## Dancing frogs

For most purposes yeah...
I just thought I'd throw that out there...some adult terribillis can take an adult cricket (though not recommended to feed that size all the time), an adult latterallis would be too big (I think :shock: ).


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## KeroKero

Couple personal thoughts here on whats being said, tho my roach experience is limited.

It really doesn't matter if the container you have has substrate or no substrate in relation to the FFs and fruit. If you have fruit in your containers, you'll have FFs. You should be tossing the fruit pretty regularly (drys out and/or spoils) so them reproducing shouldn't be an issue. If you're getting a lot of fliers around the tanks, use fly paper, and FF traps (in combination with screening, should keep them out of the colonies). For most of us this would only be a summer months problem. 

NOTE: If you have wild FFs attracted to these tanks, your FF cultures could be at higher risk of contamination (breeding with a wild fly and making the culture fliers) - the FF containers that use foam plugs rather than paper or screening are the only containers that will keep the wild flies from breeding with the culture flies.

Also a note on heating... aren't we talking air tempurature heating here? Heat pads don't do much at all for heating the air, they are meant to replicate heat warmed objects reptiles lay on to pick up heat (more specifically usually notcurnal animals that use sun warmed rocks to heat up before they go around their nocturnal activities). For the higher temps I'd just stick a heat lamp on them if the room isn't warm enough.

Lateralis may be fast... but take into a count they don't hop everywhere like crickets so they are actually easier to handle, especially with a tank with no substrate. You can pull out an egg crate, knock it over a bin, pour them into a roach sorter as linked to before. They may be fast... running around in circles in the container... 

Or just pull out the egg crate with egg cases on it, stick them in another bin, and hatch out the babies ready for feeding, no sorting (which is basically done with crickets). Or just toss the things in a tank and let them hatch lol.


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## Dancing frogs

As far as heat...
I have a little closet which houses my hot water heater, which has a real handy shelf above it...
I keep my waxworms, cricket hatcheries, and now roaches in there...the temp stays around 85F constantly.
I would guess a lot of other people have areas in their house that are similarly warm...
On top of a fridge (for bachelor's only, LOL), on the top shelf in the frog room etc.


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## themann42

i think i might try heat tape but i have never used it. how hot does it get? i plan on using a plastic bin, and obviously heat can damage/melt it. does the tape actually get hot, or just warm? also i'm assuming i can just go to lowe's or somewhere similar to buy it. does it come with wires and a plug?


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## defaced

It's used extensively in the snake/leo hobbies for racks that use plastic tubs, so it's not going to get hot enough to melt it. You also can't buy it from Lowes/HD, you have to get it online. Some come with plugs, other come just as tape and you get to solder your own plug onto it. I'm going to be using a heating pad undet their tank and work from there as needed.


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## themann42

i also just thought about using a heating pad. $16 at petsmart. that's more than i was hoping to pay to heat up food. i haven't checked heat tape prices yet. i'm still looking around for different options.


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## KeroKero

If you're doing a non-substrate tank, it wouldn't heat it up that much anyways...

But if you're looking for the stuff they used on heat racks, its heat tape, not the heat pads sold in pet stores.

Flexiwatt Heat Tape components can be ordered here

You buy the amount, per foot, that you need, a connecter set for it, a cord set, and bingo, instead heat pad for significantly less than the stuff in the stores. I've used it for gecko racks and to incubate cricket eggs, but I don't think its really sufficient to heat up the roaches as you're talking air temps...


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## themann42

thanks for the link. i've read in a couple sources they _can_ get pretty hot. i'd probably just get the 4" strip which is only 8 watts per foot. only thing i don't see offered there is a rheostat or something to control temp. i guess i could set it up and keep an eye on it for a while to make sure i don't need to add something.

i just priced it out, and after shipping it's $23. heat pad $16. defaced how bout you tell me if the heat pad works first before i order anything :wink:


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## Dancing frogs

...the hot water heater works, and you already have it :wink:


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## Dendrobait

Probably not very smart but for hissers I am keeping(for fun mainly...but the newborn nymphs work for some amphibs) are ontop of a CF light fixture which I noticed heats up quite abit during the day. The dropping night temps doesn't seem to harm them and in the case of lateralis they'd probably breed fast enough anyway. The hissers have been breeding in these conditions. The ambient temp in the house tended around 60-70 during this but I'm not sure of the actualy container temp.


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## Grassypeak

A question for you guys; A while back, I remember someone posting something about adult roaches annoying his frogs. I can’t remember if they stopped breeding, or eating, but the gist was that the frogs did not like adult roaches in their tank. Now, what is to prevent juvenile roaches from maturing in a well planted viv? They are nocturnal, right. I would think that many of them would be missed by our diurnal frogs. Any thoughts?


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## KeroKero

And that, my friend, is exactly why I want to work with non-glass climibing species. A ceramic glazed saucer and those roaches are going NOWHERE. 

Except a hungry frog's stomach. BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....haha...ha. *cough*


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## Grassypeak

Oh……………….. I think I’ll let you try it and let the rest of us know how it works out.


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## Guest

Porcelein and ceramic bowls do work great for feeding these guys off. Just like anything else though, dont put too many in or theyll form a ladder and some will get out.


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## defaced

> i also just thought about using a heating pad. $16 at petsmart. that's more than i was hoping to pay to heat up food. i haven't checked heat tape prices yet. i'm still looking around for different options.


I'll keep you posted on the heating pad. Save some money, and buy a heating pad for humans. The ones for reptiles and humans are essentially the same, so no point in paying more.


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## Dancing frogs

Well, I had my first hatch of latterallis today, tried to feed them to my yellowhead tincs in a little kidney shaped porcelain dish from a pet store (about 3/8 inch deep)...I think they are a little too big...can't tell if they ate any or not, I know they were going after them, but I seen a couple instances where they tried to zap them, and the roach just got bumped up out of the dish...(warning to those not wanting loose roaches in the viv).

I Put around 10 of them in the bowl, 4 hours later there were still about 5 left, so I don't think they liked them.
If my auratus don't like them (I think they will, they aren't as picky as my tincs), I won't be keeping the latterallis.

They are/were around twice the size (or bigger) than a hydei.

They would be great for frogs like terribillis though...they have a very attention getting behavior in the feeding bowl...running back and forth nonstop!


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## Guest

Im sorry to hear they werent as good as Id hoped for your smaller frogs. Kind puts a crimp in my plans as well as some of the frogs Im planning on getting into are really tiny!


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, I hadn't planned on feeding them to thumbnails, but from what I had been told, they should have worked for the larger frogs.

I'm pretty sure my auratus will eat them, and my tincs might come around as well...they aren't used to eating from a dish, so they may be just being cautious...

I really wish they would hatch smaller, the way they pace back and forth in the dish just screams out "eat me".

Like I said, if I had larger (eating) frogs/animals...they just might become a staple food...


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## KeroKero

My tincs/azureus experience with dish feeding is that when you start off, very few of them get the clue, even when delicious termites are in there. I wasted a lot of RFB larvae getting the azureus to realize this. Now the pair is plastered to the glass every time they see me grab a dish cuz they know food is coming....

The auratus I'm frog sitting are proving to be that way, and seem to actually prefer the stuff in the bowl to the FFs I offered lol. They picked up on the bowl thing a lot faster than the tincs and azureus...


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## Dancing frogs

Well, the remaining roaches were gone this morning (afternoon actually), so they either got eaten, or escaped.


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## Rain_Frog

you've actually found the perfect food for mantellas. My betsileo will go after young crickets (1/4") before they attack fruit flies. So, try some on the aurantiaca.


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## defaced

My Tincs managed to empty their dish in an evening, about 10 nymphs that were freshly hatched. With the next round of nymphs I'm going to see how my Azureus and Galacts like them. I know Azureus are kinda picky about the size of their prey items so that will be interesting, but the Galacts I've got no clue how they'll take them.


----------



## defaced

Figured this would be of interest for people on the edge about working with these or not. This is a freshly morphed B. Lateralis nymph next to a quarter for a size reference. I'll try to get a shot of a nymph and a Hydie next to each other. That will be fun. For larger frogs, these guys are an excellent addition in my opnion.


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## Dancing frogs

What will determine whether I keep them or not will kind of depend on whether the uneaten roaches will survive and grow in the viv...if they do, that won't do...
...Seen a bunch of them scurry away when I checked the tincs coco-hut for eggs....sure hope they don't grow up!


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## defaced

If a tank is fly proof, I can't image an adult lateralis excaping it unless the lid is very light. I'm more concerned about if a roach would interested in bothering the frogs or not.


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## Dancing frogs

Escape plan...
Keeper reaches into viv to check coco-hut, or remove feeder dish...sneaky roach hangs on to dish, coco hut or keepers' hand...

After feeding the feeders one night, I was going to bed, turned on my bedroom light, and there was an adult male latterallis perched on top of my clothes hamper...don't know how he got out of the colony, but he did.
I think he must have been out for a while, cause he was moving way slower than the ones in the colony.

I hope the claims that they won't infest are true...otherwize I'll be looking for someone to bring a truckload of dry ice to my apartment!


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## Dendrobait

Interesting stuff. Do do the hydei/lateralis nymph comparison. Stick em both in the fridge to knock em out(or freezer for a permanent deal).

Again compare lateralis to crickets. You certainly can't feed crickets in a dish but I'm guessing those that run off into the viv are no big consequence as they get hunted down or perhaps drown later. 

Are the claims or roaches being "cleaner" and smelling less true? Seems the first would be true due to roaches having a longer life as adults.


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## Dancing frogs

Dendrobait said:


> Interesting stuff. Do do the hydei/lateralis nymph comparison. Stick em both in the fridge to knock em out(or freezer for a permanent deal).
> 
> Again compare lateralis to crickets. You certainly can't feed crickets in a dish but I'm guessing those that run off into the viv are no big consequence as they get hunted down or perhaps drown later.
> 
> Are the claims or roaches being "cleaner" and smelling less true? Seems the first would be true due to roaches having a longer life as adults.


Yes, they definatly don't have the cricket (or other) odor...they seem to produce more "frass" than crickets, I have only seen a limb or two laying around, as compared to crickets, where you always have a few dead ones.

If the size of the nymphs weren't so big, I would say they'd beat crix hands down as far as ease of culture goes...my colony of around 30-40 is putting out egg cases galore...all in a 19 qt. sweater box.

I have had crickets reach adult size in my tincs tank...I hope that doesn't happen with the roaches.
As far as the issue of them surviving in the viv, I say the solution is to feed less at one time...perhaps 3-4 roaches or crix, then add more if necessary when the 3-4 are gone.

Maybee even take it a step further and skip a day of feeding before (and possibly after) feeding these items.


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## defaced

> Escape plan...
> Keeper reaches into viv to check coco-hut, or remove feeder dish...sneaky roach hangs on to dish, coco hut or keepers' hand...


I didn't even think of that, probably because I use plastic dishes as opposed to cocohuts for my breeders. Good thought. I'd feel one on my arm throught. I can feel if fruit fly gets on me.


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## Dancing frogs

defaced said:


> Escape plan...
> Keeper reaches into viv to check coco-hut, or remove feeder dish...sneaky roach hangs on to dish, coco hut or keepers' hand...
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't even think of that, probably because I use plastic dishes as opposed to cocohuts for my breeders. Good thought. I'd feel one on my arm throught. I can feel if fruit fly gets on me.
Click to expand...

...Yeah, you'd think you'd feel them...I've had both the adults and the nymphs crawl onto my hands, and even the adults are surprizingly "light" feeling...if I didn't see it actually crawl onto my hand, I probably wouldn't have noticed till they got half up my arm, where my skin is not quite so leathery.


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## themann42

so who all has purchased any lateralis? just me, mike, and brian? i was wondering what your production rates are. how much is egg cases galore? i have had 3 egg cases, but mine are only at room temperature. i figure once i get some heat for them they'll start producing a lot more.

also are yours female heavy? typically i'd say that's a good thing, but out my entire culture i only have 1 for sure male. most are still small so i'm not positive, but i have about 10 to 15 adults, all female except the one. i'm worried if the one male dies i'll be out of egg cases for a long time. i'd like to get these fully established relatively soon though because i want to buy some geckos.


brian i'd be freaked the first time if i saw one lose. as far as i know though, only the males can jump, but they rarely do so. he might have jumped out and you simply missed it. i don't think it would be a problem though, as i doubt a female would have escaped too. i made sure to buy a verticle oriented enclosure, with egg carton only half way up so i don't think any could get out even without a lid.


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## Dancing frogs

I left mine alone for about a week and a half, and then took the egg cases out last time, and found between 30-40 egg cases.
It appears that an egg case is good for around ten hatchlings...so that is a lot (IMO).


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## defaced

Looks like Brian got the lucky batch. I've left mine alone for the past two weeks or so and I've got around 10 egg cases. I'm also getting around 10 nymphs per casing, which I think it pretty good. I'm keeping mine over the ballast on my shop lights so they're warm. Though I'm not getting a whole lot of production my roaches are growing pretty quickly. The 3/8" roaches I got are now 1/2", which accounts for about half of my culture. I'm hoping they mature around the same time and I'll start getting some good production.


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## themann42

do you guys have a decent number of males, or are they pretty much all female like me?


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## Dancing frogs

Mine are pretty even.


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## chuckpowell

I wouldn't use roaches of any kind in a planted frog terrarium. I had a friend who did many years ago and many of the roaches were never eaten, quickly grew to large for any of the frogs to eat and feed on the plants in the terrarium killing many. She had to tear down the tanks to get rid of all the roaches. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Dancing frogs

Chuck, thanks for the words of wisdom, that is sort of one of the things I'm afraid of...not so much them destroying the plants, but the eggs and frogs. Do you know what species the person was trying?

Hopefully, my tanks (and apartment) will be too cool for them to grow and develop enought to reproduce.

I'll probably try feeding them to a few of the frogs for a couple weeks, then, I'll just use the nymphs to grow the colony for a while, and check the tanks for roaches that are growing in the tanks...if they are, I'll probably give the tanks a dry ice treatment before the roaches get big enought to lay eggs.

Doug, good thinking on the mantellas...I tried them on my aurantiaca today, and so far they have shown the best response to the roaches...I didn't think they would, being that frogs (my brazillian yellowheads) four times their size didn't like them. One of my female aurantiaca was totally wolfing them down!


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## KeroKero

Mantellas are funny... they LOVE springtails, yet love some huge bugs like the roaches as well! Funny little frogs...

I guess its all about what they are adapted to eat in the wild... the tinc group frogs might prefer smaller ant type insects where frogs like phyllobates and epipedobates - the best candidates for the roach species as a mainstay of the diet - love food items much larger.... The tincs might just need to get used to the idea of larger food items...


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## Guest

Sorry its been a while since I could reply, most of the questions have been fielded but i see a few that need addressing. As far as your lone male dying and leaving you s.o.l. dont worry about it, Ive had seperated females continue laying egg cases for almost a month after they were seperated.

As far as the lateralis eating your plants, I dont know, i do work with some live plants and have never noticed any damage to them. Id imagine the more herbivorous species like discoids or lobsters (which like leafy greens a whole lot) would be more of a risk. Having said that, the only caveat I could add is that a starving animal will probably eat anything it discerns as edible.


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## chuckpowell

I don't know the species she was trying. Also I keep several species of roaches for my geckos. I keep them in the garage and during the winter temperatures are in the 40's and they still breed. Admittedly more slowly but you won't have them not breed in your frog tanks. 

Best,

Chuck



Dancing frogs said:


> Chuck, thanks for the words of wisdom, that is sort of one of the things I'm afraid of...not so much them destroying the plants, but the eggs and frogs. Do you know what species the person was trying?
> 
> Hopefully, my tanks (and apartment) will be too cool for them to grow and develop enought to reproduce.
> 
> I'll probably try feeding them to a few of the frogs for a couple weeks, then, I'll just use the nymphs to grow the colony for a while, and check the tanks for roaches that are growing in the tanks...if they are, I'll probably give the tanks a dry ice treatment before the roaches get big enought to lay eggs.
> 
> Doug, good thinking on the mantellas...I tried them on my aurantiaca today, and so far they have shown the best response to the roaches...I didn't think they would, being that frogs (my brazillian yellowheads) four times their size didn't like them. One of my female aurantiaca was totally wolfing them down!


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## Dancing frogs

Man...these things are prolific...for the past week or so I've been getting around 30 or so hatchlings a day from my small colony in a 19quart container...all from the effort of throwing some veggie scraps in and picking out the egg cases.

I put the egg cases in a small 4oz. cup with a piece of paper towel on the bottom, then I put that cup in a 32 oz cup (with a solid lid) with wet paper towel in the bottom, then I place it on top of the hot water heater. When I notice hatchlings, I pick the egg cases out, then grab the paper with tweezers, and shake the hatchlings off into the supplement cup...way easier than crickets...though the roaches also grow faster (IME)

Most people that sell roaches also claim they are more nutritious...any actual studies done on that?


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## Guest

Glad youre having good success with the lateralis. 

No studies done on nutrition as of yet, my theory is that they are more nutritious and here is why. These roaches have a long lifespan, in comparison to crickets with their 6 week lifespan. What Ive seen in keeping crickets is that they are an animal that constantly needs to eat, its metabolism is suited to a short lived animal so most of what they eat goes directly into energy, roaches on the other hand have to have more of a long term approach, I believe (no empirical data to back it up) that if roaches are more nutritious its because they store more of the nutrients in their food as they are built to "weather hard times" so to speak.

Im lead to believe they are more nutritious as my hatchlings all grow faster since Ive switched over.


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## themann42

i wish mine were so prolific. i've only pulled 5 cases and i've had them almost a month. i'm guessing it's because i only have one male. poor guy is warn out lol.

how long does it take your egg cases to hatch?


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## Greenstar

any updates on the feeding potential of roaches with PDFs?


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## defaced

I'm letting my roaches (Lateralis) mature a bit more before I start feeding from them regularly. I want to make sure I have a strong colony. The one batch I did feed was taken by my Dwarf Cobalts without problems. 

Adam, I can't for sure tell how long the egg cases take to hatch. What I do know is that one that one of the cases my roaches laid since I got them has hatched, so it takes less than two months. I haven't been pulling the egg cases lately so I'm not sure how many I have gotten since my roaches arrived. I'll have to check this weekend, but I know it's more than five. 

How do you sex these guys, how old do they have to be to tell, and at what age is sexual maturity.


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## Dancing frogs

To sum up my opinion, excellent production capabilities, though I would only get into them if one has a collection of larger frogs/insectivores.
My auratus seem to like them, but I think they are a little too large for my brazillian yellowhead tinc's preferance...I'm pretty sure most of the phyllobates species would tear them up...
Going by the way the eggs coming out of the frogs look, I'd say the roaches have excellent nutrition.


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## Rain_Frog

> Doug, good thinking on the mantellas...I tried them on my aurantiaca today, and so far they have shown the best response to the roaches...I didn't think they would, being that frogs (my brazillian yellowheads) four times their size didn't like them. One of my female aurantiaca was totally wolfing them down!


Brian, I highly recommend a good cricket/roach feeding for mantellas you are wanting to breed. I've noticed they tend to get "more ready" after good feedings of crickets. I had a cricket colony at one time, and my mantellas went after 1/2" crickets even. While I wouldn't recommend always that size, they prefer 1/4" insects the most.

Just a recap, where can I get these? And is it true these roaches do not climb glass? Penny my female betsileo is looking gravid again, they were cycled this year. If I don't want to miss the boat this season, I better hurry and order something to substitute crickets.


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## Dancing frogs

Starry Night Exotics posted an ad on this board a while back, and if my roaches keep up at the rate they are, I will have some to get rid of as well.
They cannot climb clean vertical glass, but can climb the silicone in the corners of the tanks.

As far as mantella nutrition, my aurantiaca coloration is usually better when getting regular cricket meals...
My male aurantiaca seem to have some difficulty accepting the roach nymphs, however the females zap them right up like bon-bons.


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## defaced

Here's a link to the ad: http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17238


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## themann42

how do you guys hatch your egg cases? i have 9 so far. not one has hatched. some of the older ones have lost their 'plump-ness' and look like they're shriveling up. what am i doing wrong, i thought i could just throw them in a container and they'd hatch.


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## Catfur

They [eggcases] won't hatch unless they have a very humid environment. I just keep my roach colony on wet coco-fiber, they hatch out fine on that as long as it's kept moist.


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## snmreptiles

Can't believe I just found this thread...

We are also trying latteralis, but have quite a few geckos to feed as well, so if they get to big for the frogs, I have no problems feeding them to the other animals!

We also have a colony of discoids.

How long do the lateralis take to become sexually mature?

Thanks,
Mike
http://www.snmreptiles.com


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## defaced

Catfur said:


> They [eggcases] won't hatch unless they have a very humid environment. I just keep my roach colony on wet coco-fiber, they hatch out fine on that as long as it's kept moist.


That's what I've been missing. I was treating the roaches and the eggs like crickets by keeping them warm and dry. Thanks!


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## snmreptiles

PLEASE let these things be as prolific as you guys are stating...Ordering 6 to 10K crickets a month gets rather pricey. I still envision making 40+ FF cultures a week, but not having to order so many crickets would be VERY nice!

Mike
http://www.snmreptiles.com


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## Dancing frogs

I'd say with a big enough tub, or enough of them, you could easily say goodbye to the crickets...


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## KeroKero

And considering how much I still feed crickets (even tho I'm highly allergic to them) that would be exactly what I'm hoping for!

Actually... maybe not totally replace crickets, but replace them as a staple. I don't mind the occassional hatching of pinheads and what not, but I just can't deal with them being the staple for my phyllobates, epipedobates, and allobates. I'm lucky the allobates and the epis (which are currently only tricolor/anthonyi) are just as happy on hydei as crickets, but the phyllobates (bicolor and auros) seem to need a bigger food item than hydei... so I buy them small crickets... these roaches would be perfect replacements. I really, really want to try them. Now I just need to actually send out the $$ for some! lol.

I'll still keep crickets in the diet as variation... they are different in nutritional value than all the other bugs... variation is key... but I like the idea of just picking up some at the petstore or having a friend send me eggs to hatch than having to breed them like in the past....


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## Dancing frogs

KeroKero said:


> I'll still keep crickets in the diet as variation... they are different in nutritional value than all the other bugs... variation is key... but I like the idea of just picking up some at the petstore or having a friend send me eggs to hatch than having to breed them like in the past....


I was going to add that, but was really wiped out after work!


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## themann42

so apparently i need more humidity. i was just looking at them the other day it thought they looked dried out. i have the egg cases in a typical fruit fly container. could i just add a couple of 20oz soda lids, fill them with water, and place them in the container to keep the humidity up? they don't actually need a substrate to hatch right?


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## Dancing frogs

I'll repeat how I hatch them...
I put them in a 4 oz, clean plastic cup with a small square of paper towel in the bottom...the egg cases go on top of this.
The cup goes in a 32 oz container with wet paper towels in the bottom, with a sealed lid.
I was told heat was needed to get them to hatch, so I keep them on top of the hot water heater, where temps are always upper 80's or low 90's.


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## defaced

What's the paper towel in the 4oz container for?


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## Dancing frogs

The paper serves two purposes...as a result of condesation, you will get "rain" falling into you're 4oz cup...with the paper towel, they won't be sitting in water...also, the nymphs will cling to the paper towel when you pull it out (I use tweezers to pull the paper out) then you can shake them into the dusting cup or straight into the viv for feeding, much like you would crickets.


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## Dancing frogs

...Well looking into my Yellowhead tinc tank today, there is a small ledge at the top of the tank, where crickets and, now, roaches that go uneaten, gather and grow...
I counted around ten or so, half grown latterallis...Chuck was right, though they haven't reached breeding age yet, I don't doubt they would...time to hunt down some dry ice...unless someone has an idea for a frog freindly "roach trap".

My conclusion...

I don't recommend them for frogs that can't handle (and enjoy) food items under 1/2" (equal to half grown latterallis)...perhaps the bigger Phyllo's and Epips...and then only feeding them maybee once or twice a month....

What's frustrating to me is that the frogs that ate a couple of the latterallis, I noticed a big improvement in the quality of the frogs' eggs...

To quote Marvin the Martian, "Well, back to the old drawing board."

I now have quite the colony of these, and don't think I will be keeping them (as I have no large Phyllo's or epips)...if anyone wants to try them out, get a hold of me...


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## themann42

thanks for the update. i think for my purpose they will work nice. i'm getting geckos, and i'll just put the roaches in a dish about 1/2" high and let them go to town.

only problem for me right now is the hatch rate. they appear to be more relient on heat and humidity that i thought they would be. i have since put them in a sealed container with a dish of water too. the temp is only 78, but i'm hoping just an increase in humidity will help, since i have had one egg case hatch, and the rest just seem to be dried out.

on a side note, i love how these guys don't die like crickets. i've only found one dead roach, about half grown, and i'd guess i've them for about two months! keeps the tank nice, clean, and smell free.


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## KeroKero

Brian, are you just tossing them in the tank like FFs, or feeding them in a bowl? I can imagine the frustration of feeding them to frogs that aren't active eaters of larger food items... you will always have ones that get loose and grow with the less aggressive feeders. 

While there is no good alternate way to feed pinheads (unless you really feel like sitting there and pinching the hopper legs of all those crickets), the lateralis should easily be confined to a smooth bowl... I've been finding small plant pot saucers at Home Depot and Walmart houseplant sections that are in a number of nice bold colors, but more importantly, are glazed ceramic... shallow enough for the frogs to see in, deep enough to keep in anything that can't hop, and the glass glazing means non-glass climbing roaches can't get out.

I've used similar glazed ceramic dishes for feeding non-climbing roaches to geckos in the past... it should work with lateralis. It keeps all the nymphs in one place, very few if any getting loose, and the frogs soon associate them with yummies and are very good about cleaning their dish.

My azureus were not very fond of RFB larvae (I suspected because they weren't super active) and I had a lot of die off of the larvae if they were just put in the tank... once they got the food association with the dish they eat any larvae that moves...


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, most of the feedings were from the bottom of a petri dish...that would be deep enough, except the roaches would form a "roach ladder" and get out that way. Also, if a leaf or vine happens to stray into the dish...there they go! Perhaps something as deep as an 8oz deli cup would be best.
I also seen a number of times where the tincs would zap at them, and instead of sticking to the tongue, they would just go flying.

I see no survivors in the auratus tanks, I have two ideas as to why...

The auratus will take bigger food than the tincs, even though the frogs are smaller.

The auratus tanks have no backgrounds, whereas the tinc tank has a tree fern background, with a gap of about 1/2-3/4" under the top of the tank, where the roaches like to hang out...I'm assuming the tight space, and heat from the light suits them well...a roach refugium if you will!


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## Rain_Frog

once again brian, even if darts don't like them, your mantellas will praise you for it.


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## Dancing frogs

Doug, my adult male aurantiaca can barely choke them down, and half the time, would try to spit them out...are you familiar with the size of aurantiaca? Pretty small...my males are about the size of imitator...
Don't know if it's worth it to have just for the females...


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## Rain_Frog

they're really that small? My betsileo take about 1/4" crickets easily, but then again betsileo are a bit larger. The female can tackle 1/2" ones easily.


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## Dendrobait

Has anyone here figured out how cold they can tolerate? They live outside in Southern CA and I think I've seen them here and further North(little red roaches that live outside in wood and run fast). It might be possible to select for ones that are intolerant of cold...perhaps by hatching eggcases seperately and then exposing some to increasing cold temps. The first one to die or otherwise you could save his/her siblings and feed off the rest.


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## Catfur

While Blatta lateralis roaches are pretty cold tolerant, they don't seem to breed well (or at all) at temps below 75-80. I doubt the roaches you are seeing outside are the same kind, though, there are more species of roaches than a whole entomology department can shake sticks at. If the roaches (B. lateralis) have access to someplace where the temperature and humidity stay high enough (like the water heater closet), they can certainly establish themselves, and infest your house. However lateralis are relatively easy to contain, since they don't climb smooth surfaces.


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## Homer

Someone talked about a comparison photo with a hydei. I, too, was curious as to whether B. lateralis would be small enough to feed to darts, as I just do not want to raise crickets, but want another good food source.

I got about 100 nymphs from StarryNightExotics (thanks!), and there was one female laying an egg case in the container when I opened it up and set up a new colony. It took almost 5 weeks at 90 F for them to hatch, but they finally did hatch the other day after I took the deli cup out of the colony and put it under the lights on the tank cabinet (I had pretty much given up hope). This morning, I moved the cup and noticed there were about 12 nymphs running around in there.

The tincs loved them, but you will absolutely need to have a feeding dish, because these things are QUICK, and will run under anything they can find. I'm still not sure how well they will work for Dendrobates species because of this . . . I'm still a little nervous about them growing up in the terrarium and stressing out the frogs. On my experience, I doubt that they will hatch out or breed below 85, as others have said.

Comparison pic with a hydei (both refrigerated, and just coming to):


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## Dancing frogs

I'm in the process of de-roaching my tinc tank right now...no dry ice available for 60 miles, so I thought I'd try baking soda and vinegar...well, the reactor foamed way over ( I kinda expected this ), so I may have to pretty much redo the tank as far as substrate and planting goes.

I was going to try and just catch and or kill them today, but after ripping some fern from the background, I seen probably at least 30-40, half grown latterallis... no wonder my tincs have been acting stressed!


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## Dendrobait

Wow. That didn't work well. And you used a dish also?

Wonder if for the C02 if a yeast reactor or two could have made enough to do it. I know planted tank people use them alot.

Homer: Great photo! 

Anyone know if leucomelas are more in line with tincs/azureus or auratus/phyllobates in regards to food items?


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, like I said, I used the bottom of a petri dish...If I try to feed them again, I wouldn't use anything shallower than an 8oz deli cup.


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## Dendrobait

I thought you said somewhere that the frogs would flip them out with their tongues trying to eat them. Or was that not that big of a factor.


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, that was probably a big factor...it seemed like the non-dusted roaches stuck to the tongue better, and the deeper dish would address that issue some as well.
I say the best thing would be to just not feed them to frogs that wouldn't be able to take a 2-3 week old nymph...I'm pretty sure in a terribillis tank you wouldn't have to worry too much about the roaches surviving for long.


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## Homer

I would agree that a petri dish is much too short to successfully confine these guys. I am going to cautiously do some experimentation with feeding these to tincs in setups that don't have many hiding places (and that I plan to tear down in the near future) to see if these can be fed successfully to the tinc group frogs.

Dendrobait, I would say that leucs run along the lines of tincs in their feeding habits more than phyllobates. Regardless, these nymphs are more than small enough to feed to tincs and leucs for the first several days after hatching. I would guess that they could be successfully eaten even by adult thumbnails and pumilio (which I may try on my next batch of nymphs). They are definitely softer than hydei with regard to their exoskeleton. You cannot pick up the nymphs with your fingers without killing them (IME).


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## Dancing frogs

I think my adult imitator would probably be able to eat them as well...
However once while feeding my roach colony, I seen an adult roach drag a kibble of dog food (that was bigger and heavier than an imitator) under the pile of eggcrates in no time...that kind of spooked me as well...


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## Dancing frogs

More bad news on latterallis...
Back in september, I put some roaches,in a container, in the fridge (can you tell im a bachelor?)
After 3+months under 40F, I spotted at least one lively survivor...
Well, I guess that could be good news if you want to store them.


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## steelcube

This thread needs a bump. Does anyone know other smaller species that would be a good feeder? 

I wish I was into dart frogs when I was in college. The apartment that I used to live once has a very small roach species infestation. 

I was grossed out when I found out... But now, I would think slightly different.


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, a slightly smaller species would be nice.

I've found my P. bicolor, which are only about 1/2 grown, gobble the latterallis nymphs right up...don't think a tank infestation would be a reality with these guys!


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## Dendrobait

I think banana roaches (Panchlora nivea) might be good candidates as they seem to be relatively innocuous. I think any that escape the darts would be interesting viviarium inhabitants. The adults do fly and the young love to dig.

Surinam roaches(forgot sci name) are another possibility...I think they produce pretty small nymphs.


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## steelcube

Found a couple small species on the net. 

Pseudomops septentrionalis. Tiny, poor flyer, climb glass well.

Pycnoscelus femapterus.


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## Dancing frogs

I thought of using the banan roaches, but didn't like the sounds of having to sift through substrate to get them...don't like to have to pick things.

Up north of here, where I grew up, every once in a while during the summer you'd see these black things mom calls roaches...don't know whether they are or not, now that I think of it they probably are some sort of roach...
Anyway, the biggest ones I've seen are less than half the size of a latterallis, but other than that, don't know anything about them.


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## steelcube

That Pseudomops septentrionalis is rather nice looking. Google to see pictures.


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## KeroKero

Been reading the AllPet roach page, have you? lol.

One thing thats a pain about roaches... there are a number of smaller species... but they tend to be glass climbers. The nice thing about lateralis is that its not a glass climber (and basically the smallest species I've come across that breeds well and doens't climb glass). They can generally be contained to a ceramic bowl (until helped out by the tongue of a frog that hasn't gotten the knack for eating roaches). This keeps them in site of the frogs until most of them are eaten... glass climbers can't be remotely contained and are more likely to escape into the leaf litter or up the tank before eaten, and can hang around a while... and I'm not fond of the idea of opening the lid to have roaches skitter out! I'm not going to be using bug stop or similar product in my frog tank!

While the Pale-bordered Field cockroach (_Pseudomops septentrionalis_) definitely rates as a pretty bug, the "climb glass well and are quite energetic" (read: hard to catch) would keep me from keeping them. I might put up with a glass climber that is slow as crap, but not "energetic". This provides nearly the same issues as the slightly larger (and also pretty) Green Banana roach (_Panchlora nivea_) and probably has the same issue about being contained with Bug Stop - it just is so small that they don't weigh enough for petroleum jelly products to work.

_Pycnoscelus femapterus_ has a little more potential... and biologically speaking the sexually dimorphic glass climbing ability makes me almost entertained enough to keep them just for that reason... females and juvies (which lack glass climbing ability) are likely to have equivalent bowl feeding ability as the lateralis, and likely the same problems. Males I wouldn't feed out unless by forceps, but thats easy to do with stuff like bicolor and what not, or just keep the adults in the colony and feed the juvies.

I think these tiny glass climbers fall into the same problem with the Firefly mimic (_Schultesia lampyridiformis_, 13-20mm) and need the same controlling measures given for that species: "the only way to guard against all escapes is to tape or hot glue microscreen to holes in an airtight container or to Velcro a screen lid onto an aquarium." Makes it a bitch when you haven't to open the tank tho.

Also, I've yet to see a listed roach that is suppose to be really dinural... they seem to be active at times great for TFs, but not so much for PDFs... so loose ones in the tank, unless specifically riled up by a keeper, may not be eaten by inhabitants before they get too big. Unless you keep say... trivs, bassleri, terrbilis, or bicolor.... with them even the adult roaches are still food sized


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## steelcube

Been reading the AllPet roach page, have you? 
-----------------------------

Yes and a few others.  You're right... First I thought at long as they are not flyer, they're ok..


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## Catfur

A lot of the odder roaches could theoretically make good, small feeders, but are difficult to produce (I have worked with several). There is a reason a number of these are $5 a pop. P. nivea is the smallest one I know of that can be easily cultured in large numbers.


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## KeroKero

Non-flyer is a huge plus, believe me.... the effect of disturbing and opening a colony of fliers is probably not far off from opening a culture of wax moths. Its just the complications of tiny, glass climbing roaches can be a pain. I am also begining to think that roaches probably just aren't a good food choice for those with predominantly _Dendrobates_ collection. If you keep a lot of _Epipedobates_ (especially larger species) and the larger _Phyllobates_, investing in a roach colony (that you are willing to deal with) is likely an excellent idea... FFs just aren't nearly as good a staple for these guys IMO, and while crickets are better, they stink, etc., etc. Roaches are an excellent alternative to crickets for these guys. These are also the frogs that just don't let a roach nymph or cricket live long enough to get big and annoying...


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## Dancing frogs

KeroKero said:


> I am also begining to think that roaches probably just aren't a good food choice for those with predominantly _Dendrobates_ collection. If you keep a lot of _Epipedobates_ (especially larger species) and the larger _Phyllobates_, investing in a roach colony (that you are willing to deal with) is likely an excellent idea... FFs just aren't nearly as good a staple for these guys IMO, and while crickets are better, they stink, etc., etc. Roaches are an excellent alternative to crickets for these guys. These are also the frogs that just don't let a roach nymph or cricket live long enough to get big and annoying...


Pretty much the conclusion I came to also.


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## Curt61

Hey, right now I am just culturing FF, I found this site and wanted to know if the Blatta lateralis should really be 59 bucks for a container of them???
this price is from wormman.com, anybody have some that they can either sell me cheap or a internet store that sells them for cheaper then this?

Thanks, Curtis


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## KeroKero

Check out the food section of kingsnake.com for some roach deals... tho lateralis is not as common a feeder, there are a couple suppliers on there that do a number of roach species and could give you a better deal. Generally I've seen $20 for around 100 mixed size (nymphs to adults) as generally a good deal... sometimes find less... companies that don't specialize in roaches (like wormman) charge more.... go for someone who knows roaches and tends to specialize them.... it's similar to buying PDFs from someone who specializes in them... tend to know more of what they are talking about, and have better quality :wink: roaches are the newest hot feeder insect so a bunch of feeder companies are trying to take advantage of that but I'd still prefer to buy from a roach hobbyist.


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## Curt61

Sweet, thanks I will try that.


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## zBrinks

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/forum/vi ... hp?t=10066

I had 1000 go to about 8000 in 3 months. Im now able to supplement my darts, feed 4 adult and 20someodd baby beardeds, and provide treats to 3 crested geckos without wiping out the culture. These guys breed like nuts! Just make sure to keep them at 60-100% humidity and 85-95 degrees.

I use large dark rubbermaid containers with no substrate and stacks of eggcrate. I feed cat food and orange slices 2 x weekly, and use a medical heating pad for warmth under the container. I clean them out maybe every 2 months or so - they are really clean!


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## Rain_Frog

For those with tricolors, can somebody try feeding their frogs nymphs? Corey one evening told me her frogs can take 2-3 week old crickets. I'm assuming that's roughly the size of a newly hatched lateralis nymph?


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## zBrinks

nymphs are about the size of a D. hydei


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## Dancing frogs

zBrinks said:


> nymphs are about the size of a D. hydei


The ones I get have a little bigger body than a hydei, but also have antenae that are longer than the body is...I think the antenae are what irratates my tincs and makes them want to spit them out.


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## KeroKero

Well, unfortunately I've not gotten to try them yet. I'd love some egg cases sent my way, i'd be happy to try them out, but its too cold to ship them  I'm going to have to wait a couple months before I can experiment, tho I imagine the majority of my collection would love them.


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## defaced

I've not used these (lateralis) a whole lot for my frogs - I'm waiting till I get some larger species - but my geckos love them. If I ever get some Uroplatus these will be my stable for sure. 

I paid 60 bucks for 1000 of them a few months ago, and I'm thinking it's time for another order.


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## themann42

how do you guys keep the humidity up in their containers?


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## Dancing frogs

Not really necessary if you are planning on removing the egg cases to hatch out.
A plastic storage container works well for a colony, use the lid it comes with and make a small hole in the lid and cover with screen.
I spray my container every couple days...you can also use a substrate of damp coco fiber for humidity.

No need for fancy methods...they are roaches!


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## KeroKero

After poking around on the internet for info, I'm thinking removing egg cases and hatching them out it the best way all around... the adults don't really need the humidity, the egg cases do... but pulling the egg cases you get a couple things going on... one is that since you don't have to keep the main colony moist, you have less fungus/mold growth... you don't have to use a substrate to keep them moist, so you don't have to worry about cleaning that as its not needed and is a real pain... you also can keep track of generations (you know this batch was your original, this batch was your second, etc) to inbreeding occurs at a lower rate... if you need more production just set up nymphs in another colony and let them go to town... you can also keep them organized by size straight away... this container is for fresh hatches... this one for next size up... just like crickets... presorted yummies... just look for a pull egg cases as you feed/water your buggies.

I was recommended to put moist coco bedding in a filter media bag or pantyhose stocking... I think sphagnum moss in the stocking would work even better IMO just because it holds much more water and takes longer to dry out... also less likely to get fungusy. The stocking keeps the container humid, but you don't have to sit there and sort them out from the substrate.


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, the adults you can downright neglect for quite a while without phasing them...of course that is not what you do if you want production, or the healthiest roach possible.


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## themann42

my trouble is hatching the egg cases. i've tried a couple methods, but i seem to get mold over mine. can i just wash the mold off and they'll still hatch?


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## Dancing frogs

What I usually do to hatch them:

Take a 4 oz, clean plastic cup, put a small piece of damp paper towel in it, put the egg cases on it, put another piece on top of them, place that container in a 32 oz cup with wet paper towel on the bottom, put a sealed top on, then put them on top of my hot water heater.

They seem to need heat and moisture to hatch in a timely manner. I wouldn't worry about a little mold.


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## thekidgecko

Anyone thought of putting the hardier frogs (Tincs? phyllobates?) directly into a container with a few (an by a few I mean so few that it doesn't stress the frogs at all, 4-5 at a time maybe) of the roaches to allow the to not escape into the enclousure and not stress them out. Could also get them accustomed to zapping them up as opposed th FF's.m Feeding these would seriously improve egg quality I bet...


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## KeroKero

Your goal is to not stress them out by having roaches roaming the viv, yet you're thinking that removing them from the environment they feel safe in won't stress them out? While I've regularly done this with snakes (mostly to keep them from biting me in their normal tanks) I really don't recommend this with the frogs... notice how some frogs after moving tanks take a couple days to settle in before they eat? It would likely do more harm than good...

A lot of it comes down to the frogs you are feeding. As I stated before, certain frogs (larger Epis, Allobates, larger Phyllobates, mantellas) are far more likely to take these as feeders right away, and "clean tank" like they do with small crickets... I've not had young crickets survive to get to big to eat, it just doesn't happen. The roaches I imagine will be the same way.

Tinc group frogs are a whole other bag of tricks... they prefer smaller foods, so the roaches would be on the large size of the food spectrum and will likely take some convincing. Bowl feeding is highly recommended, as this will not only keep the majority of roaches in one place, but tinc group frogs consistently bowl fed eat the food items in the bowl more readily... to the point where any RFB larvae in the bowl that so much as twitch are eaten, while more active larvae outside the bowl are ignored. The problem comes with roaches that are spit out... tincs don't seem to really be able to handle the larger food that has different characteristics than what they are used to and often not only have problems catching them and getting them in their mouths in the first place, but may very well spit them back out due to the oddities (such as the long antennae recently brought up). This may be overcome by regular feeding, but escapees that will not be eaten will occur... in a well planted tank this will mean they likely won't pester the frogs too much but will be a pain to catch. 

The Epi/Allo/Phyllos don't give them much of a chance to get loose in the first place, and make short work of the ones that do... especially in the larger species, hydei is on the small side of the scale... my bicolors, similar in size to azureus, eat mainly small sized crickets (2 week olds) because I just cannot keep weight on them with hydei... while my azureus not only will not eat things larger than hydei, but prefers the smaller melanogaster FFs. The difference is food preferences...

I HIGHLY recommend trying these with the Epipedobates, Allobates, and Phyllobates, I think they will be excellent as staples. I also think that they'd be excellent for Mantellas as well, which also go for the larger foods, and do not do well breeding wise on a FF diet. As for the other PDFs? Too big for thumbnails, and the tinc group... you'll be chasing extras down in the tanks and it will be up to the individual keeper on if they are worth keeping or not. I think it's worth a try to see if you can get them more used to them as feeders (takes a couple months of bowl feeding) but don't get into them with your heart set on them as a new staple feeder, or even regular feeder, and try and buy egg cases to hatch rather than buying a colony of roaches you may end up not using.


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## thekidgecko

This is true, and I thought about that. However, I do not know if I made my point completely clear (I typed this in the thirty second I had in class). I meant mostly to get them accustomed to zapping the nymphs up rather than putting the frogs in there every time. Thus, they quickly are able to eat (successfully) the roaches w/o (hopefully...) flinging them out to cause long-term stress (which, in my opinion, is much worse than a couple times out of their cage in a comfortable and safe environ) I do keep tincs, but personally I have not kept these roaches so I was just throwing that out there because I heard some people throwing around they had fed them to their tincs successfully. Obviously if a tinc can eat them, however with some coaxing as you have told me, terribilis and bicolor and many Epips are going to be able to eat them so point taken there. All in all this was just an idea to get them to eat efficiently when bowl fed and reduce the annoyance of a primarily protein-eating roach in their cage (guessing they may eat eggs or something, but who knows I have never kept them, just read up on them :roll


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## KeroKero

My recommendation would get the tincs into bowl feeding before you even attempt the roaches. With the various species I've tried it with, they have been very aggressive feeders out of the bowl once they have a solid association with it. It can take a couple months for this to happen, and you have to have a few feeders that actually stay in bowls... RFB larvae and termites are the ones I use the most. I remove the bowl after the food is gone, or during the initial acclimation, until the food is dead :roll: usually a couple hours. I think it's easiest to use termites - a food they take readily - at first and then switch in some stuff they don't take as readily, such as RFB larvae. After they are bowl acclimated (they usually eat every live RFB larvae offered in the bowl, just make sure to control the servings so it isn't too big) then I'd track someone down with lateralis colonies, and get some egg cases to hatch from them. It will take some feedings for them to work on the technique, and you'll be chasing a handful of roaches because of it, but that's the best I can come up with to feed them... but I personally don't know if its worth it to try and feed my tincs roaches.... maybe eventually I'll try, but thats assuming there is some left over from all my other definite roach eaters LOL. I don't know if the others will share


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## Dancing frogs

thekidgecko said:


> Feeding these would seriously improve egg quality I bet...


From what I've seen, it does...not a controlled study though.


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## thekidgecko

Just guessing, increase protein content.


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## Dendrobait

Would phyllobates vittatus be a safe one to feed roach nymphs to? They are phyllobates, but they are rather small.

And I have other animals that could eat the roaches, so I ain't starting a colony to feed 3 or so frogs... :lol:


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## Dancing frogs

Wouldn't hurt to try...
My gold mantellas like them, the females go crazy for them, the males (smaller) have a little tougher time eating them.
I think they (the mantellas) are around the same size as a vittatus.

To generalize, if they take hydei with ease, or a week old cricket...they are a candidate.


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## KeroKero

Just remember that while similar in LENGTH to hydei, the baby roaches are closer to twice the MASS... so in fact are larger feeders. Feed fewer, and take that into account when feeding frogs... if they pound hydei and 1-2 week crickets, its very likely they will take them. If they don't pound the larger sizes of crickets, then they might not do the roaches... tho I believe the vits, once used to bowl feeding, shouldn't have a problem with fresh hatched.

What I recommend to ANYONE who wants to try these is get fertile egg cases (some members on this board work with this species and have been willing to supply egg cases), hatch them out, and TEST feed them to the frogs/other critters you are looking into feeding, before committing to buying a mixed lot of roaches to start a colony... this will save you a lot of money and effort on a critter your frogs may not go for, or you may not like... these are fast little guys different than other feeders and this may put some people off them even if their frogs do like them.


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## Dancing frogs

I never thought of the mass of them...excellent point, thanks for mentioning that!


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## Dancing frogs

If I ever get around to it...
I'd like to try selective breeding for albinism/light color with these.
Around 1 out of 30-50 in my colony is really light colored, usually it's the males, but yesterday, I saw a almost cream colored full-grown female!

Might make them easier to see/more attractive to the frogs.


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## zBrinks

Are you sure that the female in question did not just molt? I notice the same things with my roaches (thought I had an albino one at one point) but after I removed it, within a day it was normal color again.


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## Onagro

For the past 4 months, I have fed young lateralis roaches to my bicolor group twice a week. It seemed like my frogs got really fat after the first month, almost to the point of looking bloated. Fortunately, this post made me cut back on how many roaches each frog recieved and they went back to normal. 

Corey is right, they are fast roaches! Even faster when they are younger. They do have one painfully obvious weakness though: they always run in a straight line. They never learn to zig-zag or curve when they run either, just straight, hit a wall, then run along the wall :roll:


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## Dancing frogs

I was kind of wondering the same thing myself, though I think I have seen lighter nymphs as well.
I wasn't sure whether they molted or not, I mean, they probably do, but I have never seen leftovers of a molt, or anything like that.
What roaches are you working with?


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## Dancing frogs

Onagro said:


> For the past 4 months, I have fed young lateralis roaches to my bicolor group twice a week. It seemed like my frogs got really fat after the first month, almost to the point of looking bloated. Fortunately, this post made me cut back on how many roaches each frog recieved and they went back to normal.
> 
> Corey is right, they are fast roaches! Even faster when they are younger. They do have one painfully obvious weakness though: they always run in a straight line. They never learn to zig-zag or curve when they run either, just straight, hit a wall, then run along the wall :roll:


Yeah, my bicolor seem to get noticably bigger overnight following a roach dinner...and not just bigger around!


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## KeroKero

Just because you don't find molts doesn't mean they don't molt  like some geckos, they might eat it afterwards, or something like that. Much cleaner than the cricket sheds everywhere...

I would put money on the light roaches being freshly molted. I also wouldn't really bother with the color idea... much like the fruit flies, all the various color forms look the same color when dusted  Which reminds me, how well does the dust stick to these guys?

The key is what you feed them in... pick a food bowl with a contrasting color... this is why I have lots of different colored bowls... dark colors for light colored and/or dusted bugs, and light colors for dark bugs. The contrast makes them easy to see, and make them more noticeable to the frogs.

I really can't wait to try these, but it's way too cold for shipping


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## Dancing frogs

The dust sticks to them real well.

As far as feeding bowls...I'm having a hard time finding something just right for this purpose...a petri bottom is too shallow (the roaches get out too easy), and recently I tried a 3 oz portion cup, which is too deep, and the frogs don't want to go that deep. I don't blame them, that would be about like you or I climbing into a dumpster.
I'm thinking maybee something that deep, but with something in the middle the roaches can get up on, sort of making a moat around them, so the frogs have easy access, but makes the roaches stay where you want them.
Any tips?


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## KeroKero

Are you talking glass petri dish or plastic?

I use a variety of glazed ceramic dishes... small crocks, ceramic glazed cat dishes, ceramic glazed plant pot saucers, and terrarium dishes like this one. Ths, still have the glass surface, and when nestled into the substrate, are perfect for the frogs. In most cases I don't even have to nestle them into the substrate anymore for the frogs to be able to see into them, they know the bowl means food and hop over and in to check it out.

The ceramic dishes in the link can be found at petco for around $3 for a small one.


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## Dendrobait

I've gotten a small number(est. 40 or so) of these. The adult size is bigger than I expected(actually, I have no adult size, only a few big males probably one molt from adulthood) and even though I am fine with hissers and peppered roaches the bigguns are pretty intimidating...I would not want to find one running cross the floor at night cause it would be practically impossible to tell from a normal roach! For anyone familiar, they are larger than german cockroaches.


If I was to selectively breed these things I'd breed them for slowness(that may not be hard, simply keep the ones you catch and feed out the rest), and lack of low temperature tolerance. Hmmm...how do you breed an animal to become more delicate? The only way I can think of would be incredibly labor intensive. Hatch out egg cases seperately and then test part of the batches and keep the one in which the young from that batch die first in the fridge/freezer.


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## KeroKero

Lack of low temps would actually make them more of a pest species btw... that is NOT something I want bred out of them.

Only slow species I know are slow in just about everything... including reproduction, which makes them worthless as a feeder species. Also, they were big, lol. Being fast isn't an issue if you've got a set system to handle that. I've no intention of hatching the eggcases with the adults and having to handle them to separate them out, talk about tedious. Hatch them out in a small container (like the FF culture containers), and they are easy to handle just like crazy flies


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## Dendrobait

I mean't to breed them to be less tolerant of low temps. Maybe get it to where they will be pretty much guaranteed to die off outside the culture.


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## Dancing frogs

Thanks for the link...I already have the small one...it is more shallow than the plastic petri bottom I tried, so I guess I will have to go shopping one of these days.


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## KeroKero

I think the key there may be "plastic" rather than depth... two reasons for this... this is a non-GLASS climbing species, so they might get purchase on the plastic petri dish, and thus climb out... also the edges of the plastic petri dish are sharper (these are cut), instead of rounded on the glass ones, so the sharp edge would give them another purchase point to get out. I wonder if they would stay in a glass petri dish? 

I've got a set of deeper than average glass petri dishes, in which I've kept much larger nymphs in them when used for gecko food. Had the same problem of the geckos trying to eat thru the glass, the geckos kept on paper towels figured out the solid food bowls quickly, the species kept on sand, I just pushed the dishes into the sand, so the rim was at substrate level.

Also note that the food bowls are only used as food bowls and I keep them super clean so that deposits and what not that often build up on water bowls, and would give bugs like roaches purchase on the glass glazing, don't happen. While you don't have to be as particular with most feeder species involved in bowl feeding, where a plastic petri dish would work, its important with the bugs who are only kept in the bowl due to the glass surface... they just constantly slip right back down into the bowl as long as no deposits build up.


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## Dancing frogs

I'm sure the glass or ceramic is nicer...but the problem is not that they could climb the sides, they couldn't, but what would happen is they get on top of one another, and get out that way. Perhaps the finer edge on the glass petri would help some, but I think the ones I have are just too shallow to put more than a couple at a time in.
The plastic petri bottoms are 1/2" deep. I think something more like 3/4" would be better


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## KeroKero

Hmmmm.... a problem to contemplate... stackable roaches...


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah... it blew my mind to watch them do it.
Don't know if they are that smart, or the dish was slanted enough to make them pile naturally to one side.


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## Catfur

Dancing frogs said:


> Yeah... it blew my mind to watch them do it.
> Don't know if they are that smart, or the dish was slanted enough to make them pile naturally to one side.


Many roach species are inherently "stackable." That is they prefer to be in close contact with each other. It makes them a lot easier to keep than crix, I have a bin with about 5# of lateralis in it.


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## KeroKero

Yeah, crickets are mean little bastards (very territorial). I think the stacking issue is going to be something I'll have to play with... once weather warms up enough that I can get some  Dishes more "rounded" towards the side might keep the stacking issue down... the more they stack, the more they weigh, and the more they will slide back down to the center of the dish. My plant saucers seem to be like this, so it's something to try. But I don't wanna wait! I want buggies now...  Stupid ice storms....


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah, I was thinking something along the lines of a dish that is progressivly concave, with the rise getting steeper and steeper toward the edge, or even a 45 degree angle for a bit before the 90 degree wall.
That might also allow for a deeper dish that may be less intimidating to the frogs.

I was really hoping the 3.25 oz portion cups would have worked, but the frogs seemed leary of the depth of the container (1.25" deep, 2.75 wide, with a slightly angled side)
My plan was to leave one cup buried in the substrate, and being that the cups are stackable, when I feed, I could just pop in a clean cup with the food items.


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## zBrinks

Corey,

Ive had roaches shipped to me from Ohio, during an icestorm, and get lost in the mail somewhere for 5 days. When they finally arrived here, it was 20something degrees out and their heat pack was long dead. I got them out of the mailbox at about 11pm that night, and didnt even open it till the next day (figured they were dead!). Much to my suprise they were all fine - as far as I could tell, not even one was dead! These are tought little buggers!


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## Dendrobait

Something I'd like bred out of them. It is a good thing they cannot breed during those temps!

On the bowls, I think something like a cup with steep sides as mentioned and perhaps something placed in the middle like an island to get the roaches up to firing range for the frogs might work.


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## Dancing frogs

Dendrobait said:


> Something I'd like bred out of them. It is a good thing they cannot breed during those temps!


Well, whether they can or cannot breed at cool temps remains to be seen...or whether the egg cases will hatch at room temp.
I researched for a long time on the web...most of the info out there also says they cannot survive cool temperatures period...that more than a few days at room temperature, that an escapee will just not make it.

Like I said earlier, I had one in a container in the refrigerator for a few months, and when I took it out to defrost my freezer, it woke right up.

Not that I think they would breed at those temps...just saying some of the info out there may be just roach propaganda.

Then again, they must not be prolific at room temp, or I'd probably be having a problem by now, as I have stomped a few escapees!


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## Dendrobait

They are a pest species in tropical regions and Arizona/Socal. 

But here are some "facts" to consider.

-I've read that eggcases require warm temps to hatch
-Your house is likely getting a constant trickle of cockroaches into it. I've spotted a few German roaches in our house, but they were usually very lethargic. No doubt they came home from some grocery store in the bags/produce
-Crickets were once serious pests, and still can be if they find a warm place. Hopefully B. lateralis are not smart enough to lay eggs near hot water pipes/heaters.


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## thekidgecko

Jurassic park, Chaos Theory!?!?!?! LOL

I guess we just shouldn't give them the need to adapt to breeding in cooler/less humid conditions right?


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## Dancing frogs

Dendrobait said:


> -Your house is likely getting a constant trickle of cockroaches into it. I've spotted a few German roaches in our house, but they were usually very lethargic. No doubt they came home from some grocery store in the bags/produce
> .


I highly doubt that.
I've lived in northern WI for nearly all my life (so far) and roaches (the type people spend $ to get rid of) are just not something that are around...
Never seen a roach in my APT till I ordered some.
I wouldn't doubt some come in on freight like you mention, but even in the ports of Superior and Duluth (afaik), they are not commonly seen, and my dad works at the grain terminal.


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## KeroKero

And anyways, in areas where roaches can survive, there are both native and invasive species that are already established... if you were going to have a roach problem, you'd already have roaches... I just don't think lateralis could compete. 

My major issue with shipping is I wanted to get some egg cases, so I could hatch out some babies and see if they even worked for my frogs, before committing to a colony. Adult and subadult would take shipping rather well, even as a tropical species, as I've seen this with the other species of roach I worked with. This does not mean the nymphs and egg cases can survive it tho... it's been my experience than the eggs and young of species are much touchier than the adults. m on the end of my rope for suggestions on feeding these guys out until I get some.


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## Dendrobait

Dancing frogs/Kerokero,

your two replies are kind of contradictory. What I and what Kerokero seem to be saying is. 

If your house/area is a suitable place for roaches, then they will survive their. Presence of roaches simply means they are getting what they need to survive. Absence does not necessarily mean no roaches(a few are getting their, but dying). If you live in an apartment complex it can also go the other way around due to migration from neighboring homes.

So, you mention they are "not commonly seen." That probably means that the area just happens to be one that is not a good place for roaches. I am willing to bet if someone in your area began leaving food on the floor, turned up the heat, and had a dripping faucet somewhere it would not be long before we'd start to see roaches. It would simply be a manner of time before, perhaps, hiding in a grocery bag, a female comes along to start a population. When I mentioned a few im our home, that was over the course of 7 years, and I keep my eyes peeled for this kind of stuff.

lateralis have established themselves both in AZ and CA as mainly an outdoor roach. But I doubt they could keep up with say german cockroaches in homes. Even in tropical areas German roaches are far more common.

Hope an exterminator has some comments on this.


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## Dendrobait

Ok, guys, we now have nutritional analysis of several roaches, including B. lateralis, in comparison to a few other feeders...

see here

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=91107


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## nyfrogs

Dendrobait said:


> Ok, guys, we now have nutritional analysis of several roaches, including B. lateralis, in comparison to a few other feeders...
> 
> see here
> 
> http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=91107


so B. Laterallis is a decent food source! does anyone know those stats for fruit flies?


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## Dendrobait

You can probably dig it up somewhere on this forum...I remember it being posted.

It now makes sense that little geckos grew faster on B. lateralis, considering they have about double the protein of crickets.


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## gary1218

Question on keeping the heat up on the blatta lateralis roaches.

To keep my roach temps in the mid 80's I've had to put a 25 watt red bulb inside the plastic bin I have the roaches in. My question is do I need to keep the bulb on 24/7 to keep the temps constantly in the mid 80's? Is it OK if things cool down a bit overnight?

Thanks.


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## zBrinks

Id keep it on 24/7. Also, make sure to keep their humidity as high as possible, without causing mold.

If you do turn it off sometimes, it wont kill them or anything, but it will slow down their reproduction.


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## gary1218

Thanks Zach.

I checked the temps this morning after the lights were off last night and it was only 68F. I thought that was too big a drop so now the lights are on 24/7.


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## zBrinks

Np. What animals are you feeding? If you're just providing a nymph treat for your frogs, you may need to reduce the size of your colony/find a place to buy your surplus. I dont think some realize how prolific these guys are when they get going - Im able to keep 3 dwarf monitors, 4 adult beardies and 20someodd babies, 3 crested geckos, and provide a weekly nymph treat for my leucs out of a colony in a ~40g sterilite. I could pull 100 nymphs a day and the colony would continue to increase in size.

Which means to me, I need to get more animals


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## snake8myelbo

*lateralis*

Looking for some lateralis, let me know if anyone has a few extra kicking around, thanks Chris


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## KeroKero

Try sticking this in the wanted section.


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## themann42

how do you guys keep the humidity up?


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## Dancing frogs

themann42 said:


> how do you guys keep the humidity up?


Unless you need massive quantities of them...it shouldn't be much of an issue.
If that is you're goal, pretty much the same techniques we use to keep our tanks humid...decrease ventilation, spray the container daily or depending on the ventilation you provide, and you can also consider using a moist substrate in the bottom, however I have found that makes egg case picking more of a pain, because they will tend to lay on the substrate instead of just on the egg cartons.


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## KeroKero

Some things I've picked up from a number of threads on these guys on other (more buggy) forums is that the eggs and nymphs need more humidity than the adults. Giving the adults humidity is ok, but you can develop serious fungal issues, especially with substrate. Substrate also makes it harder to clean, and harder to collect egg cases. 

Better alternative... kept the adults at room humidity, no substrate. The egg cases won't hatch due to the lower humidity, so you'll need to set up an "incubator". You can easily collect egg cases, not worry about the fungus in the main colony, and hatching the egg cases seperately means you have automatic sorting. Whatever nymphs you don't feed out, you just toss back into the main culture.


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## Rain_Frog

just a warning (non frog tank related),

the males are quite the escape artists. My dad has found three or four, I have found two loose ones. Since they are thinner than the females, they will make attempts to squeeze through cracks in tubberwares. It is important that your containers are sealed all the way around...not just sealed at the "snaps" at the ends of your container!


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## kenya_1977

Banana roaches are really cool, but not very good feeders due to their habits. Juveniles bury deep into substrate, they can climb when they want to, and the disappear in a heartbeat. Once they transform they could be used for bigger darts. They are mostly wings though.

Lobsters are problematic in many respects. I won't use them again for anything other than a nocturnal species.. and even then I'm scared of them and got rid of my culture. I had them kill a day gecko because they were active at night and the gecko wasn't. I didn't realize that they had gone uneaten. I didn't think there was any where for them to hide because it was a P. barbouri tank with nothing but large rocks and sand, but the dug under the rocks and came out at night very hungry.

B. lateralis are a great feeder for geckos, but for dart frogs it's not as easy. Using a feeding cup might help, but they will get out when the frog jumps in to eat them and they immediately hide.. and get bigger... and maybe even breed in the dartfrog tank. The tank is a perfect breeding ground of temperatures and high humidity. Given they are nocturnal they will never be found again by your frogs. Luckily, I haven't found these guys to be as voracious as the lobsters. 

As far as B. lateralis getting out and becoming a pest, luckily their moisture requirements keep them at bay. I occasionally see them out, but that is because I have them at a fish hatchery.. there's a little bit of water everywhere. They are very much isolated to areas of easy access to water and humidity.


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## Rain_Frog

I can't get the search feature to work on some days, even if I clear cookies and delete browser history.

I used to feed my tricolors roaches more often. I stopped once I started finding many loose nymphs in my mantella tank. 

But when I took down the vivarium, I only found 2 small nymphs and one 1/2" nymph. It's still risky, but bold, aggressive frogs are likely able to eliminate most of them. I would still set a trap in the tank.

I cannot find the old post, but I now feed roaches that are delegged or injured in some way. I have gotten my mantella ebenaui and madagascariensis to accept beheaded roaches. They make a great treat. The only problem is that its tedious. 

I've tried microwaving (don't call PETA on me, lol), but small nymphs are more likely to survive small blasts (six seconds) of microwaves compared to adults which is bizarre. It either kills the nymphs or not at all.

Anybody try putting roaches in a refrigerator to slow them down, then behead / deleg them? That might make it easier.

They are a great food source for bombina and clawed frogs.


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## Catfur

Rain_Frog said:


> I've tried microwaving (don't call PETA on me, lol), but small nymphs are more likely to survive small blasts (six seconds) of microwaves compared to adults which is bizarre. It either kills the nymphs or not at all.


A microwave oven operates by generating a standing microwave, which causes water molecules to spin, generating heat. As it's a standing wave, there are distinct nodes, and anti-nodes, where the wave is at a maximum strength, or no strength, and the wavelength of a microwave is on the order of centimeters, so the dead spots are potentially a few millimeters wide, small enough for a roach nymph to fit in.


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