# Unusual behavior or something worse?



## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

I just bought these two powder blues today at a reptile expo, I've been wanting dendrobates for quite some time now and have done a fair bit of research but I don't know what to do. It was very cold here and when I took them from the building to my car the smaller one looked like it had died. It was even laying oddly. It was less than two minutes outside in the cold. Then about ten minutes later whilst driving down the road my girlfriend noticed the larger one looked deceased as well (laying oddly and not moving). So I warmed them up a little near the heater in my car (no it wasn't too hot and they didn't dry out). And it "came back to life" and started hopping around. Once I finally reached the house I misted them down with dechlorinated water because they looked a tad dry and the little one started moving. A little while later about approximately two hours they both stopped moving again. Have they died or are they just doing something unknown to me..?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

I actually had this happen a few weeks ago with some vents. All three were not moving at all after bringing them in my house, and I knew it was because of the cold. Granted they were exposed to cold air for no more than 30 seconds, but that was enough time for it to happen - lesson learned. 

I believe what happened (beyond the explanation of them being cold) is that they essentially go into a state of torpor. 

I put all three in a deli cup with lukewarm water and within 1-2 minutes their legs were twitching, and all "came back to life." They're all doing great now. Sounds like this may have been what happened - they got cold.


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## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

I even stuck them and their cup inside my coat and it's a wool lined Carhart so I hoped they'd be warm enough. I hope they comeback. They are beautiful frogs. Are they under weight?











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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

If they're still not moving you might be SOL dude. I'd put them in some warm (not hot!) water. I don't know what you're h2o quality is like where you live but tap water would probably be fine.


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## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

I'm pretty sure they are gone. I appreciate the help though. I'll try for a bit longer and if they still don't move I'll call quits.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

That stinks man... 1 they look a bit under weight but still I don't believe they should have died that quickly.... I wish you the best and note to self... Bring a styrofoam insulated box to the show next time


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## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

Yeah, definitely. I rapped them along with the red tail and the fruit fly culture in a nice heavy throw blanket as soon as we got into the car the snake and culture are just fine so it just seems odd to me they died so quickly and in that way but they are amphibians so they succumb to cold much easier...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Are you sure it was the cold? How long did you have them tucked into your 98.6 degree jacket? It sounds like a warm jacket. If you were warm, then so were your frogs, and 98.6 degrees is to hot for your frogs, especially if you warmed them more after that.
I'm really sorry, but you need to prepare better. It's cold. You should have had your own insulated cooler. I even bring my own, fully prepped, phase 22 panels when considering a purchase.

As far as asking if they look underweight, that's not a fair question anymore. We didn't get to see them earlier. When frogs die, they tend to look underweight.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Are you sure it was the cold? How long did you have them tucked into your 98.6 degree jacket? It sounds like a warm jacket.


Where would one find a jacket capable of producing heat equal to the internal temperature of a human? I could use one in WI. 

In all seriousness, I highly, highly doubt the ambient air temperature inside of a jacket was equal to that of which we are capable of producing. The heat we create dissipates quite rapidly outside of the body.

I just stuck a digital thermometer inside my sweatshirt for about 15 minutes(and I'm inside) and it got up to 79 degrees. Arguably warm for dendrobates, probably not lethal. I realize that isn't exact science, but factoring in outside ambient temp along with any possible wind... 98.6 in a jacket.. i don't see it. I think these guys are more heat tolerant than they are cold tolerant. 

I think they got cold. He didn't catch it and warm them up fast enough. Lesson learned, I hope.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

It seems more likely it would be the cold. I have heard if they stop moving, you do not try to heat them up fast. Just keep them normally warm and back off. Was your car preheated when you came out with them or was it also cold? Messing with them too much trying to revive them probably didn't help. Did you have a thermometer in the cup, a car heater puts out hot air and it might not feel like much to you but it can easily be way to hot locally. I accidentally left some plants in the back of my van not realizing they were near to a heat vent and they were all toast by the time I came home from a show. 

The weather we are having here in NA is not something you mess with especially with tropical frogs. Shoot people are dying in it. I took a cooler just to move frogs from someone's house out to the street 20 feet away to my car. It's that cold. It is ridiculous. 

I highly recommend you of course bring a cooler or insulated box and keep any animals in it anytime they are not in room temperature air. And I also say you don't know its room temperature unless you are measuring it. None of the vehicles I have are equipped with climate control and I find it pretty hard to keep things at the right temperature just adjusting the dials. This would be a warning for what might be a horribly cold weekend at NARBC we probably will not see the last of posts like this.


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## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

My vehicle wasn't extremely cold it was still a bit chilly in there being I we didn't stay at the reptile show for very long. I held them a fair bit away from the heater so they wouldn't go into shock and the air was fairly warm but not overly hot as to not over do it or switch their temperatures too fast. As you guys have said lesson learned sadly next time I'll bring insulated coolers...


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## Hill (Jan 6, 2014)

I was at a reptile show this weekend, I saw several sips going into what looked like seizures when the vendor reached into their tank. Maybe the vendor stressed the frogs out beyond repair that day. You taking them home was all they could take. Sorry for the loss, I imagine it was quite a roller coasted being pumped about them only to lose them. 


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cml1287 said:


> I actually had this happen a few weeks ago with some vents. All three were not moving at all after bringing them in my house, and I knew it was because of the cold. Granted they were exposed to cold air for no more than 30 seconds, but that was enough time for it to happen - lesson learned.


No. This is not what affected the frogs. That is insufficient time for the cold to affect them. People act like these frogs are made up of barely held together fractured crystal but that is very far from the truth. These frogs can deal with drops in their body temperatures down into the mid to upper 40 F... For you scenario to have that happen, the container in which the frogs were held would have had to supercool and then the mass of the frogs would have to chill down. 



cml1287 said:


> I believe what happened (beyond the explanation of them being cold) is that they essentially go into a state of torpor.


Torpor implies a loss of consciousness (or what little of it passes for it in a frog), this does not happen. The frogs are able to detect all forms of stimuli. 



cml1287 said:


> I put all three in a deli cup with lukewarm water and within 1-2 minutes their legs were twitching, and all "came back to life." They're all doing great now. Sounds like this may have been what happened - they got cold.


Your lucky that you didn't kill them. For you to feel that the water was "lukewarm" would require it to be close to or slightly above body temperature.

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tyler14 said:


> My vehicle wasn't extremely cold it was still a bit chilly in there being I we didn't stay at the reptile show for very long. I held them a fair bit away from the heater so they wouldn't go into shock and the air was fairly warm but not overly hot as to not over do it or switch their temperatures too fast. As you guys have said lesson learned sadly next time I'll bring insulated coolers...


If you are wearing a coat and layers of clothes and it's chilly to you then it's too cold for the herps. Keep in mind that all that wrapping a blanket around them does is to briefly insulate them and then retain the cold air around the animals as the car warms up. Blankets only really work well when there is enough thermal mass to retain the heat and/or the wrapped object is generating heat. 

If the air at whatever distance feels warm to you, then it is too hot to have blowing on these animals. For it to register as hot, it would have to be in excess of your body temperature. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Ed, I may have been off on the heat, don't really know. But I firmly believe sticking them under the heater was not a good idea.

Did you see this statement, Ed?



cml1287 said:


> I think these guys are more heat tolerant than they are cold tolerant.


That flies in the face of everything I've ever heard about dart frogs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

In the interest of killing bad information, even if I am dead wrong, what would you do with a cold frog, Ed?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Well that's interesting. The reason I presented that information (be it right or wrong, and it certainly sounds incorrect) is that when I explained what happened to an anuran biologist at my university, this was the explanation I was given. 

So I'm curious as to what actually happened. When I got home, all three had all limbs fully extended and not moving at all. No signs of life whatsoever. Upon putting them in water, they were floating and not moving at all. Within 1 to 2 minutes of being in water, I noticed two of the three's rear feet begin to twitch, followed by them returning to a normal (or seemingly normal) state of being. The third frog continued to show no signs of life for close to ten minutes before it returned to "normal." 

At this point, sure I suppose one could say I'm lucky I didn't kill them. However, had I done nothing do you think they would have died regardless?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Also Ed, do you know of anywhere one could find any research/papers done on thermal limit/tolerance of dendrobates?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Ed said:


> Torpor implies a loss of consciousness (or what little of it passes for it in a frog), this does not happen. The frogs are able to detect all forms of stimuli.


I think your definition explains Stupor, which is "the lack of critical cognitive function and level of consciousness wherein a sufferer is almost entirely unresponsive and only responds to base stimuli such as pain."

Vs. Torpor, which is defined as "a state of decreased physiological activity in an animal, usually by a reduced body temperature and metabolic rate"

In any case, it may not be what happened, so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cml1287 said:


> Well that's interesting. The reason I presented that information (be it right or wrong, and it certainly sounds incorrect) is that when I explained what happened to an anuran biologist at my university, this was the explanation I was given.


As I noted above that was too short a period of time for the frogs to hit what is a likely CTmin. I'm not aware of any papers looking at CTmin for dendrobatids and really don't have time to search for it. However there are a number of anecdotal reports of dendrobatids getting cold for extended periods of time. There is at least one in the frognet archives where auratus were allowed to get pretty cold (if I remember correctly down into the upper 40s F). As another anecdotal example, I had D. tinctorius survive two weeks with no issues with a day time high of 52F and a night time low at 48 F. 



cml1287 said:


> So I'm curious as to what actually happened. When I got home, all three had all limbs fully extended and not moving at all. No signs of life whatsoever. Upon putting them in water, they were floating and not moving at all. Within 1 to 2 minutes of being in water, I noticed two of the three's rear feet begin to twitch, followed by them returning to a normal (or seemingly normal) state of being. The third frog continued to show no signs of life for close to ten minutes before it returned to "normal."


If we look at some other species that range through the same regions we can get an idea of CTmin tolerances.. for example Smilisca baudinii has a CTmin of 5.0 C (41 F) and marine toads CTmin 11 C (51.8 F). And this is before we get to the length of time of exposure... A brief exposure to CTmin doesn't mean that the frogs would automatically die from that time as the core temperature of the frog would have to drop to that temperature and then we would have to wait for the organs to shut down. 

There are some cool physiological things that can be done to modify both CTmin and CTmax by acclimating the amphibians to higher or lower temperatures... 



cml1287 said:


> At this point, sure I suppose one could say I'm lucky I didn't kill them. However, had I done nothing do you think they would have died regardless?


It is possible but one of the ways you can kill an amphibian is via thermal shock by rapidly changing the temperature of the frogs. This is the risk with using warm water to restore the frogs... In general, allowing the animals to warm up slower is a less risky.. Keep in mind that warming from the outside in, can cause external tissues to have a higher hypoxic debt. 

You may be interested in Ecological and Environmental Physiology of Amphibians, Oxford Press; 2009

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cml1287 said:


> I think your definition explains Stupor, which is "the lack of critical cognitive function and level of consciousness wherein a sufferer is almost entirely unresponsive and only responds to base stimuli such as pain."
> 
> Vs. Torpor, which is defined as "a state of decreased physiological activity in an animal, usually by a reduced body temperature and metabolic rate"
> 
> In any case, it may not be what happened, so I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.


When amphibians that are not physiologically adapted to under go torpor (which is used synonymously with bruminate in Reptile Medicine and Surgery), even though they are unable to move, they still retain the ability to detect stimuli. They may not be able to respond to it, but it is still transmitted by the nerves. This is why freezing is not an acceptable method of euthenasia for amphibians. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> In the interest of killing bad information, even if I am dead wrong, what would you do with a cold frog, Ed?


Ideally the frogs would be allowed to warm up slowly. There is a risk if you speed up the warming process and this can also kill the frog. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Hey Ed, I may have been off on the heat, don't really know. But I firmly believe sticking them under the heater was not a good idea.


I'm in agreement that sticking them under the vent was not the best choice. He would have been far better off keeping them under his coat closer to his body temperature. 
A quick google search shows that the temperature at a heater vent should be 115 F or more.. (See AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - How To Fix a Car's Heater )

This is where we people get into trouble with trying to get the animals warm.. they underestimate the temperature closer to the vent..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

Ed said:


> Your lucky that you didn't kill them. For you to feel that the water was "lukewarm" would require it to be close to or slightly above body temperature.





Ed said:


> If the air at whatever distance feels warm to you, then it is too hot to have blowing on these animals. For it to register as hot, it would have to be in excess of your body temperature.


Ed, this is not an accurate assumption. Overall body temperature does not correlate to an individual's perception of temperature. If the OP had been out in the cold and his hands were exposed to the freezing air, a 75 degree water bath could feel "lukewarm"-- while his body temperature remained a comfy 98.6 degrees. 

I wouldn't blow air directly on a frog though...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TheCoon said:


> Ed, this is not an accurate assumption. Overall body temperature does not correlate to an individual's perception of temperature. If the OP had been out in the cold and his hands were exposed to the freezing air, a 75 degree water bath could feel "lukewarm"-- while his body temperature remained a comfy 98.6 degrees. .


There appears to be some back and forth about this in the literature but some of the more recent data is pushing back against this... see Effect of ambient temperature on human pain and temperature perception.
Anesthesiology. 2000 Mar ;92(3):699-707. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pavochavo (Nov 21, 2012)

Tyler,

What show did you attend that you purchased those frogs from?


Robert


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## pavochavo (Nov 21, 2012)

Hill said:


> I was at a reptile show this weekend, I saw several sips going into what looked like seizures when the vendor reached into their tank. Maybe the vendor stressed the frogs out beyond repair that day. You taking them home was all they could take. Sorry for the loss, I imagine it was quite a roller coasted being pumped about them only to lose them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Hill,

Same question... what show were you at? I saw a good vendor buddy of mine at the Columbus show have this problem and am wondering if you were at the same show. He didn't sell those Sips (there were two displaying that behavior). It only happened a couple of times but I saw it happen too. I can attest to his animals and how he cares for them. I have several animals from him with 0 issues. I have also been in his home and received a tour of his setup (very professional). 

I have tried to figure out what could cause the seizures or the behavior posted by the OP and am lost. Admittedly I am more of a tortoise guy and that is where my expertise is. 

Robert


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## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

It was at the KC Cold Blooded expo. The guy I bought them from is one that I have done a lot of business with. I used to buy and sell within the reptile trade, and I just started doing a bit with amphibians, although I don't plan on buying and selling the darts just a nice hobby. Haha


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## pavochavo (Nov 21, 2012)

Tyler14 said:


> It was at the KC Cold Blooded expo. The guy I bought them from is one that I have done a lot of business with. I used to buy and sell within the reptile trade, and I just started doing a bit with amphibians, although I don't plan on buying and selling the darts just a nice hobby. Haha


Ok definitely wasn't the Columbus show. I was about to say if it was I know most of the vendors there (especially the dart vendors) and can get them to make it right it needed. I'm sorry it happened to you. Always a heart break when something like this happens.

Robert


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## Tyler14 (Mar 3, 2014)

There were only two people out of the whole show that had darts and they both only had approximately five different kinds. The guy I bought them from is going to order me more but I asked to wait until it warms up first so this doesn't happen again.


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## Hill (Jan 6, 2014)

pavochavo said:


> Hill,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pavo,
I was at the Columbus show. You are correct on the vendor. He was great, he sold me my three sip froglets, who seem to be very healthy. From searching tons of posts, I wonder if those frogs just stressed out very easily. The sips were the only ones exhibiting the behavior. No complaints on the seller, he was very concerned and didn't want to share a frog that he couldn't be sure was healthy. I was curious originally because I thought the OP was at the same show. 


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