# patternless blue auratus



## baita83

Has anyone seen these? do you know if it is genetic? it looks pretty cool

Reptile Supply (reptilesupply)'s Photos - Amphibians | Facebook


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## ChrisK

I will take a pair, thanks.


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## baita83

*Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

A friend of mine has a female patternless blue auratus and he is looking for a male with reduced pattern.


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## baita83

its a friend of mines I am trying to find him a reduced pattern male to breed it with. Then I have to force him to breed it lol


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## Philsuma

baita83 said:


> Has anyone seen these? do you know if it is genetic? it looks pretty cool
> 
> Reptile Supply (reptilesupply)'s Photos - Amphibians | Facebook


Ask them....they are from Brooksville FL.

reptilesupply.com - Reptile Supplies.

Their website doesn't have any frogs for sale. Maybe they are marketing the auratus for someone else.

Looks cool....


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## baita83

thats my friend with the frog but thank you


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## ChrisK

Well in reality they probably shouldn't be bred for the trait, right?


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## Philsuma

Where did they get that frog? Was it a froglet that they produced?


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## baita83

as far as I know he bought it as a wild caught but I am not sure where from he always has the craziest animals and never breeds them. I know he has had it for about 2 years.


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## Pumilo

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

Sometimes that happens naturally and can make for a cool frog. If you manage to find a female with a reduced pattern and put them together to breed, that is called *line breeding*. You are now manipulating the genetics of the frog. This is extremely frowned upon in the dartfrog community. Most people on this board, or any other frog board for that matter, will be very opposed to that. Some people will be outright angry. Trust me, I worded something badly once and people thought I was saying that a breeder or myself were line breeding and Wow!! I got lectured over and over again! If it's not too late, edit this post before the wolves attack!!
Doug


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## Julio

amazing looking frog!!


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## stemcellular

cool looking auratus!


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## Philsuma

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

I don't know if any such "warning" is warranted in this case.

This forum is moderated. No one is going to abuse the OP on this.

Let's not be so quick to call 911. Some of us are genuinely curious about this animal.


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## inflight

She looks like a blue terribilis. NEAT! Thanks for sharing....


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## WendySHall

That's what came to my mind at first, that it looked amazingly like a blue terribilis! Beautiful frog!


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## Gamble

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

I personally don't see what the problem is ... its not like she is cross-breeding morphs and creating a hybrid. She(He) is taking a naturally occuring coloration/(defect?) and breeding it. What's the difference between that and breeders selectively breeding for better color (ie looking for strong yellow/orange in a cobalt tinc and breeding it with another well colored mate) ... the hobby can't selectively make "rules" based on what's convienient for the hobbiest depending on the situation. She/(He) should suffer no ill comments when they are merely doing what any breeder would do, only with a "rarer" occurence. Just sounds a bit unfair IMO.

So if someone could pls elaborate & explain how what she wants to do is frowned upon and why, id love to hear it. I understand and agree with No Cross breeding species/morphs, but not this. Maybe someone can help me see/understand the issue from their point of view ... thx


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## bobzarry

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

No matter how you put it... that's a great looking frog


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## earthfrog

baita83 said:


> its a friend of mines I am trying to find him a reduced pattern male to breed it with. Then I have to force him to breed it lol


Breeding darts to produce particular skin patterning is frowned upon in the hobby since it encourages inbreeding and genetic issues in the long run, so don't find another one like it to breed it with, just breed it with a regular auratus (if that's what it is, it looks like a terribilis) or not at all. 

Thanks for sharing---nice pic!


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## earthfrog

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*



Gamble said:


> I personally don't see what the problem is ... its not like she is cross-breeding morphs and creating a hybrid. She(He) is taking a naturally occuring coloration/(defect?) and breeding it. What's the difference between that and breeders selectively breeding for better color (ie looking for strong yellow/orange in a cobalt tinc and breeding it with another well colored mate) ... the hobby can't selectively make "rules" based on what's convienient for the hobbiest depending on the situation. She/(He) should suffer no ill comments when they are merely doing what any breeder would do, only with a "rarer" occurence. Just sounds a bit unfair IMO.
> 
> So if someone could pls elaborate & explain how what she wants to do is frowned upon and why, id love to hear it. I understand and agree with No Cross breeding species/morphs, but not this. Maybe someone can help me see/understand the issue from their point of view ... thx


Breeding for coloration over generation encourages inbreeding, which is not good for genetic variation and poorly-bred frogs may have more issues with their overall health. It can make for weak frogs if done for successive generations. That's why it's frowned upon, in short.


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## VenomR00

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

To me I would actually remove the name auratus and change to terrabilis because it resembles more of a mint terrabilis that I have seen. Just my opinion. I also agree with gamble to a point. Just because it is done successively you can add more gene into the pool once offspring are produced by adding another from a normal to get a random chance afterwards. Couldn't you? (Question for real not retorical)


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## Julio

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

well you guys are ruling out one obvious frog, Galact


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## rcteem

Before you start asking for any sexed mate for it, I would trace back the line haritage and get the exact locale for this animal. I agree this species is really cool looking but if we all start breeding our darts for unique patterns or for being albino then we will become just like the leapord geckos and ball bythons. 

It is imparative a s a hobby that we quit buying our frogs with out knowing the exact locale info on them. This keeps us from accidently cross breeding species and helps us keep each species with the strongest genetics. Personally Im not interested in seeing this hobby turn that way.I realize that you are not cross breeding,but line breeding is a step towards that and can cause weak genetics. I know a lot might disagree but I also know there are some in this hobby who wish the same do.

Im a person the creatures are beautiful enough as it is. These animals face enough trouble in the wild that we should try to keep the lines as pure as possible and have the strongest genetics possible. Otherwise when certain species like the Standard Lamasi, which may already be extinct, and we have a chance to reintroduce them into the wild, we will need the strongest genetics possible.

Please let us know if you have the exact local and sorry for my little rant.


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## VenomR00

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

It could be a moonshine galact also thanks for mentioning that julio ^^


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## sktdvs

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

WOW. shes gorgeous!!


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## rcteem

The other reason why I am asking for locale information is that looks more like a galact i have seen before and less like an auratus. Others i believe to it doesnt look like an Auratus.


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## boabab95

rcteem said:


> The other reason why I am asking for locale information is that looks more like a galact i have seen before and less like an auratus. Others i believe to it doesnt look like an Auratus.



agreed 100%, doesnt look like an auratus, it does look like a galact or terrib...(more galact though.)


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## Pumilo

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

I think she is a beautiful frog! My post was simply a heads up about how some people are going to react to line breeding. In one of my posts I mentioned three magic words. I said "high orange line". That phrase threw open the doors for people to imply that myself, or another breeder, was specifically breeding for more orange in the Varadero frog. This was NOT the case and I stated that over and over. I felt I was under attack and would have done anything to take back my words, but it was too late to edit it.

So please, don't get me wrong, I am not attacking. I was simply throwing out a warning about my experience.
Doug


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## rcteem

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

The point is exact locale info is needed before searching for what you or someone told you it was. I think it looks like a galact, someone else says Terribilis,and you say blue auratus...we will never know with out exact locale info.


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## Jellyman

I'd love a pair. Good luck finding another one!! You would have no problem finding homes for those beauties


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## zBrinks

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

With this animal, we don't know it's history. Breeding it with another animal like it would not be a bad idea, due to the lack of locality data. Look at many of the auratus from Panama - how many populations are divided further based on looks? How many populations are mixed together because they display a similar phenotype? We simply do not have the data to know - an educated guess is the best we can do.

This is a different case than with the UE varaderos - we know all of the varaderos from Understory Enterprises are all from one specific locale/population, and they should all be bred together. I wish this was the norm in the hobby, but it isn't.


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## rcteem

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

Posted this on the other one but figured it could be heard here to

Before you start asking for any sexed mate for it, I would trace back the line haritage and get the exact locale for this animal. I agree this species is really cool looking but if we all start breeding our darts for unique patterns or for being albino then we will become just like the leapord geckos and ball bythons. 

It is imparative a s a hobby that we quit buying our frogs with out knowing the exact locale info on them. This keeps us from accidently cross breeding species and helps us keep each species with the strongest genetics. Personally Im not interested in seeing this hobby turn that way.I realize that you are not cross breeding,but line breeding is a step towards that and can cause weak genetics. I know a lot might disagree but I also know there are some in this hobby who wish the same do.

Im a person the creatures are beautiful enough as it is. These animals face enough trouble in the wild that we should try to keep the lines as pure as possible and have the strongest genetics possible. Otherwise when certain species like the Standard Lamasi, which may already be extinct, and we have a chance to reintroduce them into the wild, we will need the strongest genetics possible.

Please let us know if you have the exact local and sorry for my little rant.


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## Philsuma

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

Maybe the OP can get his friend that owns that frog to post here.....


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## frogface

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*



Pumilo said:


> I think she is a beautiful frog! My post was simply a heads up about how some people are going to react to line breeding. In one of my posts I mentioned three magic words. I said "high orange line". That phrase threw open the doors for people to imply that myself, or another breeder, was specifically breeding for more orange in the Varadero frog. This was NOT the case and I stated that over and over. I felt I was under attack and would have done anything to take back my words, but it was too late to edit it.
> 
> So please, don't get me wrong, I am not attacking. I was simply throwing out a warning about my experience.
> Doug


I remember that. You explained yourself a dozen times and people were still harping on it.


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## bchan

I have seen solid green ones just like that in the wild. I can't speak for that individual, but solid auratus do indeed exist...never saw a blue one though, cool!


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## billschwinn

I have had a standing offer to Kevin to put that frog in a breeding program however he just does'nt seem motivated, sad .


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## Philsuma

billschwinn said:


> I have had a standing offer to Kevin to put that frog in a breeding program however he just does'nt seem motivated, sad .


Who is Kevin? Maybe Kevin can be motivated to post on here and the dart frog community can enjoy more information about that cool looking frog....


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## rcteem

I agree and can someone lets us know the exact locale info???


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## eldalote2

Really strikes me as a Terribilis. Bill may be able to confirm that the individual really is an auratus. Does he allow visitors? I am close enough to drop by for a visit.


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## markpulawski

Consider the source of the animals, an unusual Colombian frog showing up here is highly unlikley, or Brazilian frog for that matter. I would suggest it is an Auratus...a very nice looking one. My guess it is CB, I have heard others mention getting babies that are almost solid blue in the past.


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## baita83

Bill I have been trying to get Kevin to breed it but like you said he isn't motivated in that direction. But I feel he should.


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## Ed

eldalote2 said:


> Really strikes me as a Terribilis. Bill may be able to confirm that the individual really is an auratus. Does he allow visitors? I am close enough to drop by for a visit.



The mutation that would allow for a blueish terriblish, may not produce a frog that is that evenly covered in blue. It would have to be from a "mint" terriblis that spontaneously has some form of disruption in the yellow pigments leaving only the blue light reflecting iridiopores. 

Ed


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## baita83

It was a wild caught adult from panama. Mixed in with a bunch of normal looking auratus.


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## NathanB

From his facebook page:


> Reptile Supply (reptilesupply) It was purchased from a vendor at a reptile show. It was the only patternless, but one of several frogs in a deli cup. I wish I could be of more help, but that is all of the info I have.
> 52 minutes ago ·


Nice frog, i like the color


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## billschwinn

My bronze line occasionally produces ones with reduced spots.I beleive his is a bronze as well, he has been in contact, we will see where this goes.


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## boabab95

bussardnr said:


> From his facebook page:
> 
> 
> Nice frog, i like the color




haha i was the one who asked him...


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## billschwinn

I have talked to Kevin, he says the frogs are his pets, for enjoyment and relaxation, such as fish in a tank. I asked if he would allow me to do a couple breedings with it and he says he has no interest in breeding of it, but if he reconsiders he would let me know. I advised him of the great interest in this animal and how it would be nice to see it represented in the hobby. He says also he has no interest in selling and will not have visitors over to look at it, he is overwhelmed by the amount of people contacting him. I suggested he post his explanation on here and he says he don't like forums that if I wanted I could post what he said, so here you have it, I tried, Bill


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## poison beauties

Why is there so much interest in another selectively bred trait? Fads are not the way to keep this hobby going. We need to do more to keep things as natural as possible as once they are gone in the wild and many will be in time having a natural representation is what will be favored so why not stick to that now. If left in the wild that frog would have bred and the trait would be lost back into the wild as it should be and when the frog dies more than likely the the trait is no more. They come and go but this is no reason to mass produce them. It will end up like chocolate luecs and super blues.. There is no reason to work this frog into that. If you cant find a dart that you want without it being selectively bred perhalps this hobby is not for you. We are in the hobby that has more than enough size and color choices.

Michael


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## rcteem

Thank you mike!!!!


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## baita83

I was surprised by the amount of interest I was trying to find a similar male to try and interest him in a small breeding project I never expected this much debate or excitment


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## Julio

baita83 said:


> I was surprised by the amount of interest I was trying to find a similar male to try and interest him in a small breeding project I never expected this much debate or excitment


well this will happen anytime an unusual frog shows up


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## poison beauties

It is a nice looking frog and yes it can be bred but why not to another normal that came in with it? The most responcible thing to do if you want to breed it would be to toss it in with a group of normals as this is what the scenero would be in the wild. Once you start line breeding, even the offspring for an unnatural trait your taking away from the natural beauty this hobby already provides. 
I see you have been on this board since 2009. Im very much suprised you did not expect this kind of responce. There have been hundreds of posts on this subject just since you joined. 

Michael


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## Jellyman

I am in the hobby because I enjoy unusual pets. This is very unique and I would love to own a pair. If someone finds a blue luec I'd want a pair of those as well!!!


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## markpulawski

I would highly suspect you would be hard pressed to find another like it and bred within another of it's import may never throw another like it. Good for kevin, now wanting to put it through the pain of birthing a litter!


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## bobzarry

Jellyman said:


> I am in the hobby because I enjoy unusual pets. This is very unique and I would love to own a pair. If someone finds a blue luec I'd want a pair of those as well!!!



You mean like this?










Courtesy of photoshop


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## Natefank

I'm with Jellyman on this one, i may be new to dart frogs, but i dont see what the problem with trying to find a male with less marking to breed and see what happens. No one here said anything about line breeding, but people are assuming that he is going to line breed. And everyone knows what happens when we assume. Poison Beauties, you say that fads is not what keeps this hobby going, then why is it that people are willing to spend big money on different color "morph" frogs? Such as Red, Orange and moonshine Galacs? People like rare/different frogs. Not saying any names but some people on here make me not want to be part of this community. some people just jump to conclusions way too fast


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## rcteem

Do you realize that red , orange, yellow, moonshine, and a lot more different patterns exsist in the wild and werent bred for there color or pattern???? Line breeding is when you breed a certain species for its pattern or lack off in this case...sky blue azures are an example of this because they have few spots. I understand that i might be really cool to have this frog and I would love to have it to but to breed it with other normal auratus and not patternless ones. I can promise you I will never breed a certain frog based on its pattern or color just to try to get more like it. This hobby has plenty of frogs that vary in size and color to meet anyones taste...



Natefank said:


> I'm with Jellyman on this one, i may be new to dart frogs, but i dont see what the problem with trying to find a male with less marking to breed and see what happens. No one here said anything about line breeding, but people are assuming that he is going to line breed. And everyone knows what happens when we assume. Poison Beauties, you say that fads is not what keeps this hobby going, then why is it that people are willing to spend big money on different color "morph" frogs? Such as Red, Orange and moonshine Galacs? People like rare/different frogs. Not saying any names but some people on here make me not want to be part of this community. some people just jump to conclusions way too fast


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## jubjub47

Natefank said:


> I'm with Jellyman on this one, i may be new to dart frogs, but i dont see what the problem with trying to find a male with less marking to breed and see what happens. No one here said anything about line breeding, but people are assuming that he is going to line breed. And everyone knows what happens when we assume. Poison Beauties, you say that fads is not what keeps this hobby going, then why is it that people are willing to spend big money on different color "morph" frogs? Such as Red, Orange and moonshine Galacs? People like rare/different frogs. Not saying any names but some people on here make me not want to be part of this community. some people just jump to conclusions way too fast


That is the definition of line breeding. There is nothing wrong with a nice frog like this, but why not keep it's rarity and unusualness in it's natural state and not try to exploit it. I understand you are new to the hobby, but the vast majority of the hobby prefer to keep things as natural as possible. Might I suggest if you enjoy the genetic mutation hobby that you consider keeping leopard geckos or ball pythons.


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## rcteem

Dont forget corns snakes...lol



jubjub47 said:


> That is the definition of line breeding. There is nothing wrong with a nice frog like this, but why not keep it's rarity and unusualness in it's natural state and not try to exploit it. I understand you are new to the hobby, but the vast majority of the hobby prefer to keep things as natural as possible. Might I suggest if you enjoy the genetic mutation hobby that you consider keeping leopard geckos or ball pythons.


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## Natefank

jubjub47 said:


> That is the definition of line breeding. There is nothing wrong with a nice frog like this, but why not keep it's rarity and unusualness in it's natural state and not try to exploit it. I understand you are new to the hobby, but the vast majority of the hobby prefer to keep things as natural as possible. Might I suggest if you enjoy the genetic mutation hobby that you consider keeping leopard geckos or ball pythons.


What is the definition you are getting from me? Adding 2 unrelated low marking animals together is line breeding? i never said anything about exploiting it, i just said to add 'em together and see what happens. ya i understand that the vast majority of the hobby prefer to keep it natural (i've read the mixing frog posts), but are you saying that a genetic mutation ,that caused a color morph, unnatural? if so then all variants of a species is unnatural and we shouldnt breed them. Im actually offended by your last sentence. your telling me that because i like different color morphs, which there are plenty in this hobby, that i should sell my frogs and get Leopard geckos? wow, way to keep people in this hobby


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## rcteem

Natefank said:


> What is the definition you are getting from me? Adding 2 unrelated low marking animals together is line breeding? i never said anything about exploiting it, i just said to add 'em together and see what happens. ya i understand that the vast majority of the hobby prefer to keep it natural (i've read the mixing frog posts), but are you saying that a genetic mutation ,that caused a color morph, unnatural? if so then all variants of a species is unnatural and we shouldnt breed them. Im actually offended by your last sentence. your telling me that because i like different color morphs, which there are plenty in this hobby, that i should sell my frogs and get Leopard geckos? wow, way to keep people in this hobby


Yes what he is saying is that is line breeding!!!!!!!! If you had that one frog in a breeding group of normal auratus is would not be line breeding... I prefer to see you stay in the hobby and all Im trying to do is educate you what is the difference and why we shouldnt have line breeding in the hobby. Its not wrong to want that frog and have it in your collection as long as you dont want to breed it for its uniqueness.


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## brooklyndartfrogs

Guy's you should just give up it's like beating a dead horse!


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## jubjub47

Natefank said:


> What is the definition you are getting from me? Adding 2 unrelated low marking animals together is line breeding? i never said anything about exploiting it, i just said to add 'em together and see what happens. ya i understand that the vast majority of the hobby prefer to keep it natural (i've read the mixing frog posts), but are you saying that a genetic mutation ,that caused a color morph, unnatural? if so then all variants of a species is unnatural and we shouldnt breed them. Im actually offended by your last sentence. your telling me that because i like different color morphs, which there are plenty in this hobby, that i should sell my frogs and get Leopard geckos? wow, way to keep people in this hobby


Lets take this step by step, 

1)Take two rare mutation of a known population
2)Breed two stated animals together in hopes to reproduce the mutation
3)Successfully accomplish said plan

Equals.......Line breeding for a trait!

I stated it exactly how you suggested you would like to do, now tell me how this is not the case in what you are suggesting?

Taking a genetic mutation and breeding for it so it produces a higher ratio than the wild population is exactly one thing: Unnatural

You're right in liking different color morphs. Nobody will argue that different color morphs are not nice and worth working with. I keep several color morphs of auratus myself. And all of mine are representative of how their natural counterparts look. Given the interest in this very unique frog, it's clearly not a normal representative of it's usual region.

I think you need to reread my post. Nowhere in it do I suggest that you should look into leopard geckos because you like different color morphs. I suggest them to you if you are into the *GENETIC MUTATION HOBBY*. I stand by everything I posted.


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## NathanB

what makes you think that 2 of these frogs would never meet in the wild?


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## rcteem

bussardnr said:


> what makes you think that 2 of these frogs would never meet in the wild?


I hope this is sarcasm!!!! They could but dont you think after 25 years we would see more of them since auratus are one of the most exported frogs from the wild. This is my last post probably as im not rying to beat a dead horse.


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## frogface

bussardnr said:


> what makes you think that 2 of these frogs would never meet in the wild?


I suppose they could meet in the wild, but, it'd be unlikely that their offspring would breed only with similarly colored mates, as would happen if these guys were line bred and and introduced into the hobby.


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## Natefank

jubjub47 said:


> Lets take this step by step,
> 
> 1)Take two rare mutation of a known population
> 2)Breed two stated animals together in hopes to reproduce the mutation
> 3)Successfully accomplish said plan
> 
> Equals.......Line breeding for a trait!
> 
> I stated it exactly how you suggested you would like to do, now tell me how this is not the case in what you are suggesting?
> 
> Taking a genetic mutation and breeding for it so it produces a higher ratio than the wild population is exactly one thing: Unnatural
> 
> You're right in liking different color morphs. Nobody will argue that different color morphs are not nice and worth working with. I keep several color morphs of auratus myself. And all of mine are representative of how their natural counterparts look. Given the interest in this very unique frog, it's clearly not a normal representative of it's usual region.
> 
> I think you need to reread my post. Nowhere in it do I suggest that you should look into leopard geckos because you like different color morphs. I suggest them to you if you are into the *GENETIC MUTATION HOBBY*. I stand by everything I posted.


Look, im tired if this arguing, so this is gunna be my last post on this topic. What you posted and what i said is *NOT* line breeding, its selective breeding, there is a difference. line breeding is taking the off spring of said parents and breeding one back to the parents to make sure you get the right trait. i never said that i was into genetic mutation, but i guess ,around here, thinking that what the OP wants to try is ok make me into it. Good luck to you, Baita83. Everyone else, have a good rest of your day/night.


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## NathanB

frogface said:


> I suppose they could meet in the wild, but, it'd be unlikely that their offspring would breed only with similarly colored mates, as would happen if these guys were line bred and and introduced into the hobby.


I didn't see anyone saying the offspring should only be bred with themselves. That was inferred on your part. 



rcteem said:


> I hope this is sarcasm!!!! They could but dont you think after 25 years we would see more of them since auratus are one of the most exported frogs from the wild. This is my last post probably as im not rying to beat a dead horse.


Just because its a low probability doesn't mean it doesn't happen more than you think. Look at the multiple people who've won the lottery multiple times.

http://www.skepdic.com/lawofnumbers.html


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## bobzarry

And just what is wrong with beating a dead horse? It tenderizes the meat very nicely


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## billschwinn

Something to consider as well is the rate of making inroads to previously uncollected populations it is possible for different color variants or patterns to appear in collecters frogs. I think everybody should realize we all don't think alike, and some have different opinions on things,open minds should prevail.


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## Pumilo

bussardnr said:


> what makes you think that 2 of these frogs would never meet in the wild?


If by some astronomical chance, two of them meet in the wild, and a couple of their offspring are patternless, then that would be natural selection. If by chance, those two go off and manage to find some other, unrelated patternless frogs to mate with, and a higher percentage of their frogs are patternless, then that is natural selection. If these few patternless frogs, can somehow meet other, unrelated, patternless frogs...over and over and over again, until the offspring are all patternless, then this is still natural selection. The odds here are incredibly astronomical. 

People here, on the other hand, are suggesting direct genetic manipulation, inbreeding brothers to sisters, over and over and over again. This would make for an UNNATURAL frog with incredibly weak genetics that will fall over dead the first time you sneeze in its general direction.

This is genetic manipulation. This is line breeding for a specific trait. This is inbreeding. This is unnatural.

It's not about two frogs meeting in the wild. It's about breeding fathers to daughters, and brothers to sisters, and grandsons to grandmothers. This is what people would have to do to create an unnatural, line bred, frog. This doesn't strike you as wrong?
Doug


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## poison beauties

Natefank said:


> I'm with Jellyman on this one, i may be new to dart frogs, but i dont see what the problem with trying to find a male with less marking to breed and see what happens. No one here said anything about line breeding, but people are assuming that he is going to line breed. And everyone knows what happens when we assume. Poison Beauties, you say that fads is not what keeps this hobby going, then why is it that people are willing to spend big money on different color "morph" frogs? Such as Red, Orange and moonshine Galacs? People like rare/different frogs. Not saying any names but some people on here make me not want to be part of this community. some people just jump to conclusions way too fast


As someone who has been keeping herps for around 20 years I have followed the hobby and I can tell you a few hobby's like the python and colubrid hobby have have grown due to the practice of selective breeding. But this hobby has not I asure you. Your also throwing up actuall locale morphs of frogs and not selective traits. I can show you the diference if you need me to. There are a few selectively bred morphs out there but they have not held any ground on the natural ones.



Natefank said:


> Look, im tired if this arguing, so this is gunna be my last post on this topic. What you posted and what i said is *NOT* line breeding, its selective breeding, there is a difference. line breeding is taking the off spring of said parents and breeding one back to the parents to make sure you get the right trait. i never said that i was into genetic mutation, but i guess ,around here, thinking that what the OP wants to try is ok make me into it. Good luck to you, Baita83. Everyone else, have a good rest of your day/night.


Selective breeding is what Im talking about not line breeding though it is usually needed and will be needed to reproduce this solid blue auratus. Whe you breed anything in order to produce a trait that is not the natural representation it is selective breeding and to many of us your trying to one up mother nature. The natural representation in this hobby is as nice of a selection as any other hobby if not more so I will leave it at this. If you seriously need to find or create something unnatural to keep in this hobby perhalps your in the wrong hobby. You can look around all day for another recuced pattern auratus but Im telling you you wont replroduce that trait without breedig offspring back to the parent. Its not going to happen unless you do and that is why line breeding comes into the selective breeding conversation. This does as much damage to the advancement of this hobby as hybrids or even best guess frogs. We need to be focused on keeping it natural, keeping the locales and lines known of what we keep and working to setup long term breeding plans on how to keep a few frogs around in their natural form like standard lamasi that are not going to be around in the wild too much longer. trying to recreate an all blue frog is not going to help the hobby.

Michael


----------



## jubjub47

Natefank said:


> Look, im tired if this arguing, so this is gunna be my last post on this topic. What you posted and what i said is *NOT* line breeding, its selective breeding, there is a difference. line breeding is taking the off spring of said parents and breeding one back to the parents to make sure you get the right trait. i never said that i was into genetic mutation, but i guess ,around here, thinking that what the OP wants to try is ok make me into it. Good luck to you, Baita83. Everyone else, have a good rest of your day/night.


Let's please not be naive. We both know what would be needed to accomplish the goal you wish to achieve. No need to get caught up in semantics. I posed my description based on what would be needed to accomplish your goal. We both also know what happens when you figure out how to replicate this mutation.


----------



## jubjub47

bussardnr said:


> I didn't see anyone saying the offspring should only be bred with themselves. That was inferred on your part.


I think it's rightly inferred given human nature.


----------



## Allyn Loring

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

I have only been in this hobby for a few years now so any info that I have will no doubt have some gaps in it ,that being said here goes!I'm sure most have seen in the classifieds the Chocolate Leucs I have posted .From what I've read they are considered an albino strain of the Nominant Leucs and that somewhere in the past is about where this post started for them as well.Understand now I do not condemn or condone , but this, given enough time anything will eventually become normal.Twenty years ago I would venture into the Ossipee Mts. and think nothing of drinking from any of the steams I'd come across now I do it with lets just say with a little hesitation.There are over a million acres up there all isolated by iron gates no motorized access at all .Buy the way there is a place called Castle Springs who get their bottled water supply from that exact same area I sometimes haunt .Who would have thought twenty years ago.


----------



## Philsuma

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*



Allyn Loring said:


> I have only been in this hobby for a few years now so any info that I have will no doubt have some gaps in it ,that being said here goes!I'm sure most have seen in the classifieds the Chocolate Leucs I have posted .From what I've read they are considered an albino strain of the Nominant Leucs and that somewhere in the past is about where this post started for them as well.Understand now I do not condemn or condone , but this, given enough time anything will eventually become normal.Twenty years ago I would venture into the Ossipee Mts. and think nothing of drinking from any of the steams I'd come across now I do it with lets just say with a little hesitation.There are over a million acres up there all isolated by iron gates no motorized access at all .Buy the way there is a place called Castle Springs who get their bottled water supply from that exact same area I sometimes haunt .Who would have thought twenty years ago.


I am sorry for the highjack but _I have got to know_....what's all this about drinking out of mountain streams have to do with the price of Ethiopean Coffee??


----------



## Dendro Dave

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

Sweet frog whatever it is. 

I'm just thinking out loud here and kinda playing devil's advocate. I'm not sure this is a good idea but let me toss it out there for some feedback...

Perhaps if no origin data can be had for this frog or others like it that is a potential loop hole in our anti line breeding/designer frog stance? If frogs like those are line bred to other like frogs then essentially we create an artificial morph, one that can then be labeled and kept separate from other animals of known morph/locales. Frogs that otherwise in a sense go to waste or whose offspring are hard to place with new people because of the unknowns. You still have the same potential dangers with unscrupulus vendors or new people not knowing our code of ethics throwing something into our fairly clean gene pool either way don't you? So from a pragmatic perspective are you really opening up more risk? or just changing the nature of the risk? Would not the risk be functionally equivalent from a practical stand point?

Perhaps it would even be acceptable to take a known animal and cross it with an unknown to form a new line that is then kept separate. Essentially I'm talking about coming up with a set of standards that allow for a "designer" aspect in the hobby that follows guidelines in order to have a chance at least as good as the chance we have now with our current guidelines for keeping animals separate. It seems to me that in theory we should be able to pound those guidelines and ethics into people's heads and hearts just as successfully as we do the current ones. 

Either way we still have the same risk of contimination. Perhaps the crossing known with unknown is more risky if people don't keep track and pull offspring...Perhaps even if we limit such activities to just unkown animals there is another danger if people get sly and start falsely claiming animals as unknown so they don't get pounced on by the community. Hmmm... It seems to all boil down to basically being the same type of risk no matter what, but maybe that amounts to opening up another vector of risk. So its coming at you from 2 sides instead of one maybe? I was starting to open my mind to the possibilities but those last thoughts may have just talked me out of the idea...again  But there it is for you all to consider


----------



## Tony

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

You may be on to something Dave. As much as I personally don't like it, it is undeniable that designer morphs and hybrids/outcrosses are gaining in popularity and at some point it will be impossible to stop that shift. Whether we like it or not more and more reptile people are becoming involved in darts and bringing the designer morph mentality with them, I think the best we can hope for is that those animals are clearly labeled and remain separate from the wild type populations. Even that may be a bit too optimistic considering the state of leopard geckos, corn snakes, ball pythons, etc.


----------



## Dendro Dave

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*



Tony said:


> You may be on to something Dave. As much as I personally don't like it, it is undeniable that designer morphs and hybrids/outcrosses are gaining in popularity and at some point it will be impossible to stop that shift. Whether we like it or not more and more reptile people are becoming involved in darts and bringing the designer morph mentality with them, I think the best we can hope for is that those animals are clearly labeled and remain separate from the wild type populations. Even that may be a bit too optimistic considering the state of leopard geckos, corn snakes, ball pythons, etc.


Thats basically my position too. Admittedly there is a part of me that enjoys the novelty and potential aesthetics of hybrid or designer animals. I'd love to see a cross between a blue azuerus and red galact if that is even possible, or bio-luminescent dart frogs but I'm not sure it is worth the risks to the hobby and ultimately the integrity of the species we keep in captivity. I'm also not sure there is anything we can do to stop it...as the hobby grows and as you pointed out people from other hobbies with other mentalities join us it is likely to become increasingly difficult to limit the creation and entry of these animals into the hobby. I wonder if it isn't best and even time to start accepting this probable fact and start doing what we can to make sure it happens as much on our terms as possible, instead of finding ourselves in the middle of a cluster #%[email protected] like some of the other hobbies have


----------



## billschwinn

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

Wow! I can say several places accross the country people have Fire shooting from there eyes.It is nice to see calm dialogue in this thread.


----------



## Tony

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*



Dendro Dave said:


> Admittedly there is a part of me that enjoys the novelty and potential aesthetics of hybrid or designer animals.


I recently saw an azureus x auratus hybrid in a friend's collection and it was hard not to admire it, it was a stunning and HUGE frog. As much as I prefer the natural forms, that frog was a perfect illustration of the appeal that designer varieties have.


----------



## Allyn Loring

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*



Philsuma said:


> I am sorry for the highjack but _I have got to know_....what's all this about drinking out of mountain streams have to do with the price of Ethiopean Coffee??


I knew that post would get a reaction.


----------



## myersboy6

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

sign me up for some of those frogs when you get them breeding. That frog is awesome!


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## rcteem

*Re: Male reduced pattern blue auratus*

Just so we quit thread jacking this guys want add...there is a thread for this in the general section where we can put our pros or cons for breeding this animal. If he chooses to breed this animal that is his choice rather I like it or not...please try to keep the aguring to the general tab please.


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## zBrinks

The following posts were moved over from another thread on the same subject.


----------



## Jellyman

bobzarry said:


> You mean like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Courtesy of photoshop


Sweet. Someday.


----------



## illinoisfrogs

Pumilo said:


> People here, on the other hand, are suggesting direct genetic manipulation, inbreeding brothers to sisters, over and over and over again. This would make for an UNNATURAL frog with incredibly weak genetics that will fall over dead the first time you sneeze in its general direction.
> Doug


I'm not for inbreeding, but does it really make the genetics that weak? Has anyone studied this over many generations? Aren't we all kind of doing this, breeding the same frogs back to relatives. I mean, if I have "Nabors" green/black auratus, and someone else has "black jungle", and someone else has AZDR, did these all come in at different times? Didn't most of these frogs come in at the same time together? If so, you're already dealing with a small pool. Now, if we're constantly introducing new wild caught stock, you'd be increasing the gene pool. But that's not the case with auratus. Tons of people are captive breeding animals that originated in the same shipment, if you trace it back that far.

I'm just wondering if any of you, or any of the long time breeders, have inbred many generations, and can see a physical difference. I just don't see that it would make that big of a difference if you're already dealing with a small gene pool, that originated from 50-100 (or less) animals.


----------



## illinoisfrogs

Jellyman said:


> Sweet. Someday.


I'd take that blue leuc and put him in a "monage 3 trois" with a patternless blue auratus and a sky blue fine spot super micro spot azuerus!

Sorry, I couldn't resist!


----------



## Pumilo

lincolnrailers said:


> I'm not for inbreeding, but does it really make the genetics that weak? Has anyone studied this over many generations? Aren't we all kind of doing this, breeding the same frogs back to relatives. I mean, if I have "Nabors" green/black auratus, and someone else has "black jungle", and someone else has AZDR, did these all come in at different times? Didn't most of these frogs come in at the same time together? If so, you're already dealing with a small pool. Now, if we're constantly introducing new wild caught stock, you'd be increasing the gene pool. But that's not the case with auratus. Tons of people are captive breeding animals that originated in the same shipment, if you trace it back that far.
> 
> I'm just wondering if any of you, or any of the long time breeders, have inbred many generations, and can see a physical difference. I just don't see that it would make that big of a difference if you're already dealing with a small gene pool, that originated from 50-100 (or less) animals.


Yes, tons of people are breeding animals that came from the same shipment. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are related. I personally will always try to bring in new blood rather than inbreed for generations. This is not an experiment I would choose to waste my time on as the effects of inbreeding other animals is pretty much well known. I think you kind of make the argument for me when you state that we are not constantly bringing in new wild caught stock and that we are already dealing with a small gene pool. If we know that we are already working with a limited gene pool, why would you purposely make it smaller? Don't we owe it to our charges to try to keep them as strong and healthy as possible? Frogs all over the world are disappearing at an alarming rate. Our well thought out breeding just might be their last chance at survival. We must do everything we can to try to keep their genes strong and diverse.

Just my 2 cents.
Doug


----------



## Taron

If it looks cool it is cool.......lol......hopefully its a unknown locale


----------



## Dendro Dave

Both the opposing points that we are working with a very limited gene pool which has its dangers and that frogs are in fact pretty resistant to the effects of inbreeding over many generations are valid but ultimately while some species/morphs are likely to be ok, at least for the next few decades we are probably going to run into a few cases where genetic defects from to small a gene pool rear their head. If no new animals are available to combat that what do we do? There the only option is to start mixing morphs, locales or species to have any hope of a frog remotely looking like that frog staying in the hobby. In fact there may come a time if these things all disappear from the wild where to have any darts in captivity some level of crossing will be needed...maybe not, hard to say for sure now, but the possibility exists.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Both the opposing points that we are working with a very limited gene pool which has its dangers and that frogs are in fact pretty resistant to the effects of inbreeding over many generations are valid but ultimately while some species/morphs are likely to be ok, at least for the next few decades we are probably going to run into a few cases where genetic defects from to small a gene pool rear their head. If no new animals are available to combat that what do we do? There the only option is to start mixing morphs, locales or species to have any hope of a frog remotely looking like that frog staying in the hobby. In fact there may come a time if these things all disappear from the wild where to have any darts in captivity some level of crossing will be needed...maybe not, hard to say for sure now, but the possibility exists.


This is only likely to happen if people don't manage the population. Some populations have been resurrected from amazingly small gene pools (see for example the Przewalski's Horse. If populations aren't managed at some level at some point, we will see varieties and species go extinct in captivity. This has happened with other genera in the hobby (and if it wasn't for new imports, they would have been lost for good) namely the bumble bee toad. 

Ed


----------



## Gamble

OK ... to be honest this post is whizzing me off! ... as I stated on page 2 of this post, and ill say it again ... A lot of u guys are being HYPOCRITS! People say "oh, breeding for specific coloration is wrong" ... EVERYONE of you "breeders" selectively breed your frogs based on color and if u say otherwise, all due respect, u r full of fluffy kittens! 

So ur telling me that if u r buying a mate for one of ur frogs, do u intentionally go for the paler, less colorful one? NO u don't! U buy the one with the best coloring!

I understand the debate, and i can't say that I don't agree bc I do agree to an extent BUT to hear people portray themselves as "saints" and say they don't breed based on color is a crock of delicious chicken noodle soup. Bc "technically" in no specific terms ... YOU DO!


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> This is only likely to happen if people don't manage the population. Some populations have been resurrected from amazingly small gene pools (see for example the Przewalski's Horse. If populations aren't managed at some level at some point, we will see varieties and species go extinct in captivity. This has happened with other genera in the hobby (and if it wasn't for new imports, they would have been lost for good) namely the bumble bee toad.
> 
> Ed


Agreed, just tossing things around


----------



## Dendro Dave

Gamble said:


> OK ... to be honest this post is whizzing me off! ... as I stated on page 2 of this post, and ill say it again ... A lot of u guys are being HYPOCRITS! People say "oh, breeding for specific coloration is wrong" ... EVERYONE of you "breeders" selectively breed your frogs based on color and if u say otherwise, all due respect, u r full of fluffy kittens!
> 
> So ur telling me that if u r buying a mate for one of ur frogs, do u intentionally go for the paler, less colorful one? NO u don't! U buy the one with the best coloring!
> 
> I understand the debate, and i can't say that I don't agree bc I do agree to an extent BUT to hear people portray themselves as "saints" and say they don't breed based on color is a crock of delicious chicken noodle soup. Bc "technically" in no specific terms ... YOU DO!


If you mean we breed these because we like colorful frogs or breed red galacts to other red galacts so the offspring are actually red, and galacts then you are right. But while color may play a factor in choosing what frogs to breed to others or just own period, I think for most of us it is a minor one. People are trying to pair up the most healthy animals, or they just pair up what they have...I don't have a ton of red galacts to spare, if I get one pair out of my 4 I'll consider myself lucky and those will be the ones I breed, even if one is orangish red and one is a really nice bright red. I think most keepers find themselves in a similar situation. Most of us don't often have the luxury of buying the 2 prettiest blue jeans to breed together, we are lucky if we get them at all, for some that may apply even for luecs...and even if some selection occurs as long as it is offset by the rest of all the random breeding going on and doesn't become the "norm" then it isn't likely to have much impact. Also in judging the health of the animal often most of what we have to go on is physical appearance, so people may not just be picking the most nicely colored frog because it is pretty but because that leads them to believe it is more likely to be healthy and produce well and that the frogs that come from it are also more likely to be healthy. 

The problem is when aesthetic desires or goals become the prime motivation for breeding a specific frog to another in order to get what you desire even if that eventually doesn't even come close to representing the "norm" for the animal. It is practices like those becoming the "norm" for the hobby that many of us fear and are guarding against. 

Also I should point out that a high percentage of frogs are bought sight unseen online and/or are bought young when possible adult characteristics are largely unknown. Then people just breed what they have, though I'll concede it may be what they think is best of what they have sometimes but as long as people are getting mixed bags of frogs and especially when they are crossing those with other blood lines you still get a good genetic mix, not an animal thats genetics favor a particular trait even at the possible cost of that animals health or offsprings health. There is a huge difference there IMO.

So I'm willing to concede that I may pick my 2 nicest frogs and breed them together and that may be some form of selection, but what I'm not doing is buying a ton of blue azuerus trying to get ones that look kinda purple then breeding those together and then breeding the most purple of those together and so on untill I get a purple frog. Thats a project, those kinda projects are what we discourage and again that is a huge difference IMO then what takes place with the average person in our hobby right now, and most of us it seems would like it to remain that way.


----------



## zBrinks

Gamble said:


> OK ... to be honest this post is whizzing me off! ... as I stated on page 2 of this post, and ill say it again ... A lot of u guys are being HYPOCRITS! People say "oh, breeding for specific coloration is wrong" ... EVERYONE of you "breeders" selectively breed your frogs based on color and if u say otherwise, all due respect, u r full of fluffy kittens!
> 
> So ur telling me that if u r buying a mate for one of ur frogs, do u intentionally go for the paler, less colorful one? NO u don't! U buy the one with the best coloring!
> 
> I understand the debate, and i can't say that I don't agree bc I do agree to an extent BUT to hear people portray themselves as "saints" and say they don't breed based on color is a crock of delicious chicken noodle soup. Bc "technically" in no specific terms ... YOU DO!


 Actually, I know that I do not, and I know of several others who do not, as well. When I purchase frogs, I purchase a group of 6 to 8, then allow them to pair up. I do not 'pick the ones with the nicest colors' or anything of the sort.


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## frogface

zBrinks said:


> Actually, I know that I do not, and I know of several others who do not, as well. When I purchase frogs, I purchase a group of 6 to 8, then allow them to pair up. I do not 'pick the ones with the nicest colors' or anything of the sort.


Agreed. While I don't have many of my own frogs yet, the ones I do have were not chosen due to the way they look. They were taken as a group, were gifted, or, in the case of the mate for my el dorado, picked out by someone else.

I have 4 super blues (I think 2.2) that will be breeding age soon. 2 look very unique and the other 2 look very similar to each other. It's tempting to put the 2 unique frogs together, but, I'll be putting their nicknames in a hat and pairing them up by random draw (decided to house them as pairs rather than a group of 4).


----------



## boabab95

Dendro Dave said:


> If you mean we breed these because we like colorful frogs or breed red galacts to other red galacts so the offspring are actually red, and galacts then you are right. But while color may play a factor in choosing what frogs to breed to others or just own period, I think for most of us it is a minor one. People are trying to pair up the most healthy animals, or they just pair up what they have...I don't have a ton of red galacts to spare, if I get one pair out of my 4 I'll consider myself lucky and those will be the ones I breed, even if one is orangish red and one is a really nice bright red. I think most keepers find themselves in a similar situation. Most of us don't often have the luxury of buying the 2 prettiest blue jeans to breed together, we are lucky if we get them at all, for some that may apply even for luecs...and even if some selection occurs as long as it is offset by the rest of all the random breeding going on and doesn't become the "norm" then it isn't likely to have much impact. Also in judging the health of the animal often most of what we have to go on is physical appearance, so people may not just be picking the most nicely colored frog because it is pretty but because that leads them to believe it is more likely to be healthy and produce well and that the frogs that come from it are also more likely to be healthy.
> 
> The problem is when aesthetic desires or goals become the prime motivation for breeding a specific frog to another in order to get what you desire even if that eventually doesn't even come close to representing the "norm" for the animal. It is practices like those becoming the "norm" for the hobby that many of us fear and are guarding against.
> 
> Also I should point out that a high percentage of frogs are bought sight unseen online and/or are bought young when possible adult characteristics are largely unknown. Then people just breed what they have, though I'll concede it may be what they think is best of what they have sometimes but as long as people are getting mixed bags of frogs and especially when they are crossing those with other blood lines you still get a good genetic mix, not an animal thats genetics favor a particular trait even at the possible cost of that animals health or offsprings health. There is a huge difference there IMO.
> 
> So I'm willing to concede that I may pick my 2 nicest frogs and breed them together and that may be some form of selection, but what I'm not doing is buying a ton of blue azuerus trying to get ones that look kinda purple then breeding those together and then breeding the most purple of those together and so on untill I get a purple frog. Thats a project, those kinda projects are what we discourage and again that is a huge difference IMO then what takes place with the average person in our hobby right now, and most of us it seems would like it to remain that way.


agreed, 

now, since i'm kinda bored right now,and i wanted an excuse to use photoshop, i want to put most of this tread into 2 pictures...for no reason...


we are trying to do this:










NOT this:


----------



## Gamble

Obviously there r exceptions and I agree with both of u ... I personally prefer to purchase my frogs in person so that I can choose what I purchase but I understand a lot of people do not have that luxury. I'm not saying everyone chooses based on color. My point was simply that to say selective breeding (whether good or bad) doesn't happen would be a bad assumption. To also assume that anyone who attempts to do what the poster is trying to do would also be a bad assumption bc none of us can speak for them not knowing their intentions. To me personally, to "line breed" for personal collection I think is fine. To mass produce a defect would be bad and even worse to not disclose that information. Its the "trickery and deceit" of people trying to pass off a engineered morph that needs to be avoided and bc there r some dishonest, greedy people out there, IMO is why things like this are avoided and looked down upon.

BTW ... thx for the edit Zach, u cleaned it up well in good taste and lite humor! Well done. ;-p


----------



## Dendro Dave

Gamble said:


> Obviously there r exceptions and I agree with both of u ... I personally prefer to purchase my frogs in person so that I can choose what I purchase but I understand a lot of people do not have that luxury. I'm not saying everyone chooses based on color. My point was simply that to say selective breeding (whether good or bad) doesn't happen would be a bad assumption. To also assume that anyone who attempts to do what the poster is trying to do would also be a bad assumption bc none of us can speak for them not knowing their intentions. To me personally, to "line breed" for personal collection I think is fine. To mass produce a defect would be bad and even worse to not disclose that information. Its the "trickery and deceit" of people trying to pass off a engineered morph that needs to be avoided and bc there r some dishonest, greedy people out there, IMO is why things like this are avoided and looked down upon.
> 
> BTW ... thx for the edit Zach, u cleaned it up well in good taste and lite humor! Well done. ;-p


Agreed and definitely valid points IMO. The personal collection issue has come up before. In theory hybrids or line bred animals would be fine in most if not all respects if it could be counted on they would remain separate in private collections. That is where the difficulty arises though. How many people enter this hobby only to sell off their frogs and leave, assuming up to that point this would be something they did for the rest of their lives. Maybe they are broke and need the money, can't afford to take care of the animals any more and give them to someone else. Maybe that person even promises they will never let that animal enter the hobby, but then unforeseen circumstances occur and it does. 

People die, people are injured, people grow old and unable to be as active, people have money troubles and have to sell things or give away things they can't afford to take care of...all kinds of things happen, and the more of these animals are out there the more likely they are to enter the hobby through unforeseen circumstances even when precautions are taken and people have the best intentions. People we trust forget promises, or betray us, don't have the same values as us etc..etc.. so even doing all you can to be responsible and make sure the frogs end up with someone else who is responsible may not be enough. Sure there is always some risk of such things, but is it wise to encourage more risk or stand by idle while others subject us all to more risk when we don't need to, and the reasons why might want such things are mostly aesthetic and arguably selfish?

So in theory it can possibly be done responsibly, and might even be done so for real by many but there is still a practical, real world increase in risk to us all and the animals. Even as things are they will find their way into the hobby, all we can do is limit,repair and prepare for the damage as much as possible.


----------



## zBrinks

Gamble said:


> BTW ... thx for the edit Zach, u cleaned it up well in good taste and lite humor! Well done. ;-p


 MWhahahahaha!


----------



## Dendro Dave

boabab95 said:


> agreed,
> 
> now, since i'm kinda bored right now,and i wanted an excuse to use photoshop, i want to put most of this tread into 2 pictures...for no reason...
> 
> 
> we are trying to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOT this:


Eh actually I'd cross the purple one, with the blue one to get the blue/purple one...If it was me. Of course I'd also try to make it super intelligent, able to speak, have wings and be bio-luminescent if i could. But truly if I could do that, first I'd invest my time and money into building the perfect woman...who Ironically might also be partially blue/purple, super smart, able to speak, have wings and also be bio-luminescent. I do like the freaky girls


----------



## Gamble

Dendro Dave said:


> Eh actually I'd cross the purple one, with the blue one to get the blue/purple one...If it was me. Of course I'd also try to make it super intelligent, able to speak, have wings and be bio-luminescent if i could. But truly if I could do that, first I'd invest my time and money into building the perfect woman...who Ironically might also be partially blue/purple, super smart, able to speak, have wings and also be bio-luminescent. I do like the freaky girls



Too funny! But I'm with u on the freaky girls part ... thank god my wife is one of those or id be in the lab with u! Lol


----------



## Dendro Dave

Gamble said:


> Too funny! But I'm with u on the freaky girls part ... thank god my wife is one of those or id be in the lab with u! Lol


Ya finding one isn't the hardest problem...Finding one without the psychosis accompanying the freakyness is the hard part. We gotta breed that out of them  Anyone care to give me a million dollar research grant?


----------



## rcteem

Gamble said:


> OK ... to be honest this post is whizzing me off! ... as I stated on page 2 of this post, and ill say it again ... A lot of u guys are being HYPOCRITS! People say "oh, breeding for specific coloration is wrong" ... EVERYONE of you "breeders" selectively breed your frogs based on color and if u say otherwise, all due respect, u r full of fluffy kittens!
> 
> So ur telling me that if u r buying a mate for one of ur frogs, do u intentionally go for the paler, less colorful one? NO u don't! U buy the one with the best coloring!
> 
> I understand the debate, and i can't say that I don't agree bc I do agree to an extent BUT to hear people portray themselves as "saints" and say they don't breed based on color is a crock of delicious chicken noodle soup. Bc "technically" in no specific terms ... YOU DO!


Wow thats a bold statement!!!! Your absolutely wrong...enough said. These animals are beautiful enough!!!


----------



## Gamble

AMEN! Ill gladly donate 10mil (unfortunately ur gonna have to settle for monopoly money)


----------



## Gamble

rcteem said:


> Wow thats a bold statement!!!! Your absolutely wrong...enough said. These animals are beautiful enough!!!


Bold; Yes, Wrong; No, not entirely. To say everyone does it, yes, it was an exageration hastily typed in anger ... but like I said, to say/think that it doesn't happen IS wrong and pure ignorance. You have an opinion, I have an opinion and so does everyone else and some would disagree but there are some that would agree. Regardless, I am a highly outspoken individual and I've expressed MY opinion as such ... that's the beauty of free speech/thinking ... u don't have to agree or like what I said. Its of no consequence to me at all, frankly I don't care, but Speaking of beauty, I agree ... indeed they are beautiful.


----------



## Philsuma

Selecting a single pair of animals for colour is not that same as line breeding. Line breeding, by definiation, involves many animals with an "assembly line" approach and always.....for profit.

That's just too big of a leap to say that buying the more colourful frogs as a hobby is the same as line breeding for business or potential business success.


----------



## Gamble

Philsuma said:


> Selecting a single pair of animals for colour is not that same as line breeding. Line breeding, by definiation, involves many animals with an "assembly line" approach and always.....for profit.
> 
> That's just too big of a leap to say that buying the more colourful frogs as a hobby is the same as line breeding for business or potential business success.


That's my point Phil ... I understand what u r saying, and I agree. MY problem was that everyone cried "foul" ASSUMING that's what the posters intentions were .. I just felt I had to speak up.

Futhermore ... as per my example earlier, if Breeder A has a cobalt tinc with more deeper yellow/orange and wants to keep that strong coloring, obviously they are going to try to find a mate with the same strong colors ... and in MY opinion technically IS line breeding to a certain extent ... just bc its not a "defective" trait doesn't make it not so ... just bc someone calls a crap sandwich a burger, it doesnt mean it is ... so all due respect, Phil, let's just agree to disagree.

I'm glad we can have these debates of opinion ... kinda like abortion; everyone has they're opinions as to what's wrong or right but regardless it still creates an awareness of something that some people may not of payed attention to and are more knowledgable bc of it and that's the most important thing ... Creating Awareness in the hobby.


----------



## billschwinn

Philsuma, just to be clear, is their in your opinion anything wrong with making a profit or in reality covering costs when breeding animals, not including line breeding?


----------



## Philsuma

billschwinn said:


> Philsuma, just to be clear, is their in your opinion anything wrong with making a profit or in reality covering costs when breeding animals, not including line breeding?


No Bill....covering costs by selling healthy animals all the way up to make any or all profits are ok in my book. I am a believer in "Conservation through captive breeding"

I don't think hybrids or line-bred animals are good for the dart frog hobby and I do not support efforts to produce profits from this form of husbandry practice or business.

I just cringe at the thought of one day, going to the Daytona show for example, and seeing vendors attempting to sell brand new hobbyists a creamsicle, double het, spider blizzard Tinc for the mere price of $550.00 each.


----------



## billschwinn

I agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence. I will go on record as no support for hybrids, as far as line breeding I am un decided at this time, I think at some point it and different morphs on a limited basis is inevitable.


----------



## Philsuma

billschwinn said:


> I think at some point it and different morphs on a limited basis is inevitable.


It sure is inevitable. The dart frog hobbyist is not too much different from his reptile counterpart and let's face it...we are all human and wishing to make a profit through hard work and honest enterprise is fairly natural and culturally accepted, no?

I remember my first African fat tail and Leopard geckos back in the 80's. It took about 10 years of mass appeal and hobbyists working the "lines" but look at it now.

It just won't be me though......


----------



## Gamble

Philsuma said:


> No Bill....covering costs by selling healthy animals all the way up to make any or all profits are ok in my book. I am a believer in "Conservation through captive breeding"
> 
> I don't think hybrids or line-bred animals are good for the dart frog hobby and I do not support efforts to produce profits from this form of husbandry practice or business.
> 
> I just cringe at the thought of one day, going to the Daytona show for example, and seeing vendors attempting to sell brand new hobbyists a creamsicle, double het, spider blizzard Tinc for the mere price of $550.00 each.


I agree Phil/Bill ... but realistically, I think its only a matter of time b4 it eventually happens, and that's unfortunate, so its up to all of us to educate people n to create awareness within the hobby.

BTW Phil (and to everyone else) ... a hypothetical question: say sometime in the future, u went to a show and saw that in person; what, realistically, would u do? How would u handle that? (Bc I know ud be angrier than all get out!)


----------



## Philsuma

Gamble said:


> BTW Phil (and to everyone else) ... a hypothetical question: say sometime in the future, u went to a show and saw that in person; what, realistically, would u do? How would u handle that? (Bc I know ud be angrier than all get out!)


Age 25 or now? haha...

Seriously....I'd just....keep on walking.


----------



## Gamble

Philsuma said:


> Age 25 or now? haha...
> 
> Seriously....I'd just....keep on walking.


LOL ... seriously, ur a bigger man than I, bc it would take everything in me not to make a scene.


----------



## illinoisfrogs

There were actually several hybrids pictured in the old "Dart Frogs" coffee table book from the mid 90s.....if they were big sellers, they'd be more abundant now, I would think.

I think the fact that there is a HUGE amount of available cool colored animals will prevent hybrids from ever being common in frogs. I mean, with geckos and pythons, the "wild type" was basically the same thing. With dart frogs, the rainbow of naturally existing wild types will prevent the need for hybrids (I hope)

Plus, if any good breeder did his research, he would find pretty quick how much the hobby frowns on hybridization, and that there might not be a huge market to sell $500 frogs to people who don't want them.


----------



## illinoisfrogs

Philsuma said:


> Age 25 or now? haha...
> 
> Seriously....I'd just....keep on walking.


I've always wondered about your "location". Do you keep darts in both states?!!!


----------



## Pumilo

Gamble said:


> Bold; Yes, Wrong; No, not entirely. To say everyone does it, yes, it was an exageration hastily typed in anger ... but like I said, to say/think that it doesn't happen IS wrong and pure ignorance. You have an opinion, I have an opinion and so does everyone else and some would disagree but there are some that would agree. Regardless, I am a highly outspoken individual and I've expressed MY opinion as such ... that's the beauty of free speech/thinking ... u don't have to agree or like what I said. Its of no consequence to me at all, frankly I don't care, but Speaking of beauty, I agree ... indeed they are beautiful.


Fine, we all have opinions. Problem here is that you have directly accused every one of us of line breeding and lying. Your opinion is not on opinion. It is an accusation and it is wrong. Dead wrong.
Doug


----------



## Gamble

Pumilo said:


> Fine, we all have opinions. Problem here is that you have directly accused every one of us of line breeding and lying. Your opinion is not on opinion. It is an accusation and it is wrong. Dead wrong.
> Doug


Like I said ... its my opinion ... I used the wrong choice of words, n I apologize if I offended anybody, that wasn't my intention. You of all people should understand that, considering it happened to u in the past ... BUT in the end, urs or anyone elses opinion when related to the hobby is of great value to me ... ur opinion(s) of me personally; I could honestly care less! 

And people on here were wrong to directly/indirectly accuse the poster of wrong doing, when they may/may not have known of any infraction they may have done ... my post was in defense of that ... I don't regret anything I've said.


----------



## Pumilo

Gamble said:


> Like I said ... its my opinion ... I used the wrong choice of words, n I apologize if I offended anybody, that wasn't my intention. You of all people should understand that, considering it happened to u in the past ... BUT in the end, urs or anyone elses opinion when related to the hobby is of great value to me ... ur opinion(s) of me personally; I could honestly care less!
> 
> And people on here were wrong to directly/indirectly accuse the poster of wrong doing, when they may/may not have known of any infraction they may have done ... my post was in defense of that ... I don't regret anything I've said.


Thank you. Forgiven. Of course I understand that. By the way, my post on this thread was not towards the original poster. In fact, on his other thread, I tried to gently warn him what was going to happen here. It has pretty much played out how I thought it would. My comments were directed at the person I quoted earlier in said posts.
Doug


----------



## Philsuma

I think this *entire *thread has been civil, full of different viewpoints, perspectives AND is overall, positive and helpful to the dart frog hobby.

I really hope that most people feel the same way and do not come away feeling someone's " viewpoint " got bullied or trashed

because it didn't.

This was / is a VERY civil discussion-thread.


----------



## Gamble

Thank You ... that's all I ask, kind sir


----------



## billschwinn

Ok , I for one am shocked, are we sure no one wants to throw something or send hate mail?


----------



## Tony

billschwinn said:


> Ok , I for one am shocked, are we sure no one wants to throw something or send hate mail?


Meet me in the thunderdome.


----------



## rcteem

I agree...I feel this has been very civil and hope this is a start to a new era....I have also enjoyed learning more about the other side and why they think it is okay. I dont agree with it but its a free country and people will do what people want to do.


----------



## Gamble

Philsuma said:


> I think this *entire *thread has been civil, full of different viewpoints, perspectives AND is overall, positive and helpful to the dart frog hobby.
> 
> I really hope that most people feel the same way and do not come away feeling someone's " viewpoint " got bullied or trashed
> 
> because it didn't.
> 
> This was / is a VERY civil discussion-thread.



I agree ... amazing isnt it!?!! lol


----------



## JJuchems

Good luck getting another solid blue. It is a sweet frog. I had a pair bronze auratus that where completely green back in 2005. No luck getting the traits to pass on.


----------



## Jellyman

boabab95 said:


> agreed,
> 
> now, since i'm kinda bored right now,and i wanted an excuse to use photoshop, i want to put most of this tread into 2 pictures...for no reason...
> 
> 
> we are trying to do this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NOT this:


Anyone that would not buy a purple azureus because it is a hybrid is loco(in the nicest sense of the word). That would be the coolest frog ever. That's better then the blue leuc. I would drop a $1000 on just one of those in a heart beat.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

Jellyman said:


> Anyone that would not buy a purple azureus because it is a hybrid is loco(in the nicest sense of the word). That would be the coolest frog ever. That's better then the blue leuc. I would drop a $1000 on just one of those in a heart beat.


Honestly, I actually like the blue ones better. Just goes to show though, that each person has different likes/ dislikes and may be willing to pay for different varieties. To the OP, that is a very cool looking frog. I believe that it could just be a variation of the other auratus, kind of like the really neat looking marbled christobal pumilio female someone on here picked up. 
Bryan


----------



## Jellyman

Dendro Dave said:


> In theory hybrids or line bred animals would be fine in most if not all respects if it could be counted on they would remain separate in private collections. That is where the difficulty arises though. How many people enter this hobby only to sell off their frogs and leave, assuming up to that point this would be something they did for the rest of their lives. Maybe they are broke and need the money, can't afford to take care of the animals any more and give them to someone else. Maybe that person even promises they will never let that animal enter the hobby, but then unforeseen circumstances occur and it does.
> 
> People die, people are injured, people grow old and unable to be as active, people have money troubles and have to sell things or give away things they can't afford to take care of...all kinds of things happen, and the more of these animals are out there the more likely they are to enter the hobby through unforeseen circumstances even when precautions are taken and people have the best intentions. People we trust forget promises, or betray us, don't have the same values as us etc..etc.. so even doing all you can to be responsible and make sure the frogs end up with someone else who is responsible may not be enough. Sure there is always some risk of such things, but is it wise to encourage more risk or stand by idle while others subject us all to more risk when we don't need to, and the reasons why might want such things are mostly aesthetic and arguably selfish?
> 
> So in theory it can possibly be done responsibly, and might even be done so for real by many but there is still a practical, real world increase in risk to us all and the animals. Even as things are they will find their way into the hobby, all we can do is limit,repair and prepare for the damage as much as possible.


Is it not just as likely that at least a good handful of "breeders" are simply labeling unknown lineage frogs as whatever lineage people are interested in buying. It is 100% unlikely that every frog being sold as a praticular lineage is true or even verifiable. 

Just throwing it out there. Seems like blind faith believing everyone that currently sells pure lineage is being truthful. Is this not causing the same damage as incorrectly labeled hybrids?

Seems like an aweful weird double standard. So called pure lineage breeders are assumed to all be labeling and selling their frogs properly but anyone that produces and sells hybrids would mislabel their frogs. Maybe if the hybrids were not viewed as such an evil concept then they would be labeled correctly and/or no differently then pure lineage are labeled??


----------



## Gamble

Very good point!


----------



## Philsuma

Jellyman said:


> Is it not just as likely that at least a* good handful of "breeders*" are simply labeling unknown lineage frogs as whatever lineage people are interested in buying. It is 100% unlikely that every frog being sold as a praticular lineage is true or even verifiable.
> 
> Just throwing it out there. Seems like blind faith believing everyone that currently sells pure lineage is being truthful. Is this not causing the same damage as incorrectly labeled hybrids?
> 
> Seems like an aweful weird double standard. *So called pure lineage breeders *are assumed to all be labeling and selling their frogs properly but anyone that produces and sells hybrids would mislabel their frogs. Maybe if the hybrids were not viewed as such an evil concept then they would be labeled correctly and/or no differently then pure lineage are labeled??


Well then.....It appears you are calling out "certain" breeders but not having the fortitude to name names. Just who are these "breeders" you are refering to ?


----------



## billschwinn

What I take from Jellyman's last post I think he is trying to play devil's advocate, or putting something out there to make one think out side the box so to speak, at least that is how I see it, maybe I am mistaken, Bill


----------



## Pumilo

Jellyman said:


> Is it not just as likely that at least a good handful of "breeders" are simply labeling unknown lineage frogs as whatever lineage people are interested in buying. It is 100% unlikely that every frog being sold as a praticular lineage is true or even verifiable.
> 
> Just throwing it out there. Seems like blind faith believing everyone that currently sells pure lineage is being truthful. Is this not causing the same damage as incorrectly labeled hybrids?
> 
> Seems like an aweful weird double standard. So called pure lineage breeders are assumed to all be labeling and selling their frogs properly but anyone that produces and sells hybrids would mislabel their frogs. Maybe if the hybrids were not viewed as such an evil concept then they would be labeled correctly and/or no differently then pure lineage are labeled??


I would like to know if you are saying that you know somebody doing this. This is such a weird, twisted assumption to make. Why would anybody do this? Seriously. Why would anyone create a hybrid and then claim it to be of pure lineage? This is the oddest...accusation?...assumption? that I have heard in a long time.
Doug


----------



## zBrinks

Pumilo said:


> I would like to know if you are saying that you know somebody doing this. This is such a weird, twisted assumption to make. Why would anybody do this? Seriously. Why would anyone create a hybrid and then claim it to be of pure lineage? This is the oddest...accusation?...assumption? that I have heard in a long time.
> Doug


 Ever heard of a 'Amotopo' tinc?


----------



## Pumilo

zBrinks said:


> Ever heard of a 'Amotopo' tinc?


OK, my mind is thoroughly blown!! Looked up this "Amotopo" tinc. I can't believe somebody did this! Apparently a cross between an Azureus and Regina passed off as a new find. I also stumbled across the so called "Agreja" tinc. That is a cross between an Azureus and a Powder blue by a Dutch breeder and introduced into the hobby as a new find. I can't believe people did this!
Doug


----------



## Gamble

Pumilo said:


> OK, my mind is thoroughly blown!! Looked up this "Amotopo" tinc. I can't believe somebody did this! Apparently a cross between an Azureus and Regina passed off as a new find. I also stumbled across the so called "Agreja" tinc. That is a cross between an Azureus and a Powder blue by a Dutch breeder and introduced into the hobby as a new find. I can't believe people did this!
> Doug


Pumi - 
I can't recall what website it was ... (if u google cobalt tinc morphs u may come across it) ... but it lists all the diff cobalt morphs & where they came from, and there were atleast a handful of them that were hybrids ... it blew my mind. So yes it does happen and I think that's what jellys point was. Things happen, either on purpose or on accident ... ie. I bought a cobalt tinc surinam and it turned out to be labeled incorrectly bc it was a patricia ... sometimes things like this happen...unfortunately. Now imagine if I wouldn't have noticed when it got older n then bred it with a surinam and sold the froglets as surinam but really it wasn't a pureline anymore! (Good thing I noticed it) ... so tying into jellys point: we trust breeders to know what they r selling, and if someone with less experience would have been in my position it could've been a potentially bad situation for the hobby. Makes u wonder how often these things really happen!!!


----------



## frogface

Gamble, was it this one?

Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide


----------



## Gamble

frogface said:


> Gamble, was it this one?
> 
> Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide


Yep that's the one! Good job Face! Did u check it out n see what I was talking about?


----------



## frogface

Yes, I had seen it before and bookmarked it for future reference


----------



## Gamble

Good Idea! I'm considering putting together a "Buyer Beware" list in the beginners section listing all the diff hybrid morphs for newer members ... etc ... 

Anyone wanna help me compile some info?


----------



## Philsuma

Pay special attention to the notations in the paragraphs describing the designer morphs..


_"Please don't buy this morph, there are enough nice real morphs. With buying and breeding this morph you create confusing between morphs"_



There is just as much chance than a 25 year old kid in some basement in Germany bred such an animal, than a real breeder of frogs.


----------



## Gamble

Philsuma said:


> Pay special attention to the notations in the paragraphs describing the designer morphs..
> 
> 
> _"Please don't buy this morph, there are enough nice real morphs. With buying and breeding this morph you create confusing between morphs"_
> 
> 
> 
> There is just as much chance than a 25 year old kid in some basement in Germany bred such an animal, than a real breeder of frogs.


Correct ... but for it to be listed on a website and to have been noticed, wouldn't it of had to been sold/mass produced at some point in time???

Would me creating that post be a waste of time?


----------



## Jellyman

Philsuma said:


> Well then.....It appears you are calling out "certain" breeders but not having the fortitude to name names. Just who are these "breeders" you are refering to ?


Do not try and start a fight. What I am saying in very simple terms is that just because a "breeder" says he has pure lineage frogs is not always the case. I have no idea who is or is not telling the truth. It is just simply not even close to realiostic to think that everyone that states they are selling pure frogs actually is doing so. I personally do not care if they are or are not because lineage for me really is of zero concern. I want healthy nice looking frogs regardless of what line, lineage, or hybrid they may be. Put away your boxing gloves you are digging for a fight that isn't there.


----------



## Philsuma

Gamble said:


> Correct ... but for it to be listed on a website and to have been noticed, wouldn't it of had to been sold/mass produced at some point in time??? [QUOTE/]
> 
> Nah....probably not than many. If I had to guess or bet. All in Europe too...
> 
> 
> 
> Gamble said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would me creating that post be a waste of time?
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno....this hybrid-talk has been around for at least 3-4 years, that I can remember, and I've said this before....I have attended probably over 100 reptiles shows on the east coast - Hamburg to Daytona and have never seen a single hybrid frog for sale. I think Ed saw one at Hamburg once. Once....
Click to expand...


----------



## Gamble

Ahhhh ... I see. Well that's a good thing then.


----------



## Jellyman

Pumilo said:


> I would like to know if you are saying that you know somebody doing this. This is such a weird, twisted assumption to make. Why would anybody do this? Seriously. Why would anyone create a hybrid and then claim it to be of pure lineage? This is the oddest...accusation?...assumption? that I have heard in a long time.
> Doug


I'll clarify.

Everyone on the anti hybrid side assumes that the hybrids would be labeled incorrectly or cannot be kept seperate from the pure lineage frogs because the owners are not responsible enough to do so or that they would purposely mislead buyers.

I'm simply saying that if the anti hybrid side thinks that this does not happen with pure lineage frogs then they are simply buying frogs on blind faith. It is completely unrealistic to believe that every breeder is honest with what he has. I'm not saying that they are mislabeling hybrids, even though that is also a possibility. I am simply saying that if they have an unknown azureus it is really easy to label it as a "known breeder" lineage and sell it a lot easier and for a greater profit then they could if it was labeled as unknown. 

I do not believe this is what most do but I certainly believe that there are those that are driven by profit and do exactly what I described above.

I am personally interested in healthy colorful frogs regardless of their lineage, breeder, or if they are a hybrid/mix. I'm just introducing the reality that what everyone is afraid of with the introduction of hybrids is already happening with "labeleded lineage" frogs whether one wants to believe it is or not.


----------



## Philsuma

Jellyman said:


> I'll clarify....
> 
> .....I'm just introducing the reality that what everyone is afraid of with the introduction of hybrids is already happening with "labeleded lineage" frogs whether one wants to believe it is or not.


Clear as mud. 

Hybrids...same as "labeled linege" - Check ! 

Going out to get coffee....I'll get back to you on this.....


----------



## Gamble

Jellyman said:


> I'll clarify.
> 
> Everyone on the anti hybrid side assumes that the hybrids would be labeled incorrectly or cannot be kept seperate from the pure lineage frogs because the owners are not responsible enough to do so or that they would purposely mislead buyers.
> 
> I'm simply saying that if the anti hybrid side thinks that this does not happen with pure lineage frogs then they are simply buying frogs on blind faith. It is completely unrealistic to believe that every breeder is honest with what he has. I'm not saying that they are mislabeling hybrids, even though that is also a possibility. I am simply saying that if they have an unknown azureus it is really easy to label it as a "known breeder" lineage and sell it a lot easier and for a greater profit then they could if it was labeled as unknown.
> 
> I do not believe this is what most do but I certainly believe that there are those that are driven by profit and do exactly what I described above.
> 
> I am personally interested in healthy colorful frogs regardless of their lineage, breeder, or if they are a hybrid/mix. I'm just introducing the reality that what everyone is afraid of with the introduction of hybrids is already happening with "labeleded lineage" frogs whether one wants to believe it is or not.


I see ur point and I can't say that I disagree. Its a very real possibility.


----------



## Jellyman

Philsuma said:


> Clear as mud.
> 
> Hybrids...same as "labeled linege" - Check !
> 
> Going out to get coffee....I'll get back to you on this.....


I made no reference that "Hybrids...same as "labeled linege"". Please do not try to misrepresent my message. This message really has nothing to do with hybrids. It is more about the blind faith that all frogs that are labeled as lineage "x" or locale "Y" are actually labeled correctly.

Are you seriously saying that every azureus or tinc or auratus frog sold as a "breeder x" lineage or a "locale X" is true? Are you honestly saying that every unknown lineage azureus or tinc or auratus is being sold as it's true lineage or locale? Do you honestly believe that every breeder is accurately labeling their frogs? 

What I am saying is that there are breeders/wholesalers/hobbiest that are in it for the money and that it is easier to sell a known lineage/locale then it is to sell an unknown. And as stated by others, frogs are labeled incorrectly on occassion whether it is by mistake or on purpose. They may be labeled wrong because the seller does not know anything about frogs or because the seller wants to make more cash. 

Do I think there are a lot of these breeders/wholesalers/hobbiest? Certainly not. Do I have anyway of knowing who might be? I can only take their word. The problem is that it only takes one wholesaler to introduce 200 auratus into the hobby labeled as "X" because they look like "x" when they are actually "Y". The only point I am making is that it does happen probably more frequently then most what to believe.

Any further comments by me will not involve hybrids but be of general frog labeling as a whole. This issue in reality is the realistic labeling of all frogs regardless of wheter they are hybrids, crosses, known lineage, known locale, etc.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Geez guys all he is saying is we have little way of knowing that the frogs all sold to us as pure bred actually are unless they or their offspring come out wacky looking, or we do tons of DNA testing. Which is true...we trust that breeders do right by us, and probably one reason most of us aren't terribly worried they won't is because we assume they know if it ever came to light they were doing such things they'd get thrashed in public and their business would take a hit.

I think he is just point out a possibility that many of us probably don't like to consider, but it is worth mentioning. I see no need to make an argument out of it since there were no actual accusations and nothing subtly implied about a specific breeder either...that I saw. Just stating a possibility, one that is true...simple as that.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

I see what Jellyman is saying here. It's just about the same problem as all of the "best guesses frogs" based on looks when it could be multiple things, and it happens all the time. Is this tinc patricia, oyapock, or powderblue? Is this pumilio cayo de agua, "yellow belly", or chiriqui? Is this auratus Panamanian, Costa Rican, Nicaraguan, "microspot", or capira? The list goes on. The problem is that if someone acquires frogs frogs with unknown lineage and the person from whom the frog was purchased doesn't know, they may say, "Oh yes, this frog is probably an el cope auratus instead of a "microspot" auratus, based on similarities of pictures on the internet and my frog." Then any offspring could be incorrectly sold, and be interbred with real el cope auratus. This mis- labeling could be accidental or intentional, but could still cause problems. 

Personally, I kind of think it is unrealistic for every person with unknown lineage frogs (because there are a lot of them out there) to not breed them simply because there is not exact locale data. In this case it would be better to simply call them "green/ black auratus '04 import" or "red pumilio '05 import" and keep them separate from the known locales. 
Bryan


----------



## billschwinn

This thread is finally de-volving the way so many before it has, with the familiar veiled shots, stirring the pot, I really thought we were onto something really good here with all the intelligent dialogue.We are all entitled to opinion, it should not be used against us, and this is all my opinion.


----------



## Dendro Dave

billschwinn said:


> This thread is finally de-volving the way so many before it has, with the familiar veiled shots, stirring the pot, I really thought we were onto something really good here with all the intelligent dialogue.We are all entitled to opinion, it should not be used against us, and this is all my opinion.


.....Agreed


----------



## Adven2er

Thanks to the efforts of importers like Understory Enterprises and SNDF we are getting more frogs in the hobby with location data. 

I applaud the efforts of TWI and the Taxon Management Plans they are working on.

I believe this is the direction our hobby is headed and I support their hard work.


----------



## rcteem

billschwinn said:


> This thread is finally de-volving the way so many before it has, with the familiar veiled shots, stirring the pot, I really thought we were onto something really good here with all the intelligent dialogue.We are all entitled to opinion, it should not be used against us, and this is all my opinion.


Agreed...lets try to keep this peaceful chat going...its had been fun so far and clean...lets keep it that way.


----------



## Gamble

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I see what Jellyman is saying here. It's just about the same problem as all of the "best guesses frogs" based on looks when it could be multiple things, and it happens all the time. Is this tinc patricia, oyapock, or powderblue? Is this pumilio cayo de agua, "yellow belly", or chiriqui? Is this auratus Panamanian, Costa Rican, Nicaraguan, "microspot", or capira? The list goes on. The problem is that if someone acquires frogs frogs with unknown lineage and the person from whom the frog was purchased doesn't know, they may say, "Oh yes, this frog is probably an el cope auratus instead of a "microspot" auratus, based on similarities of pictures on the internet and my frog." Then any offspring could be incorrectly sold, and be interbred with real el cope auratus. This mis- labeling could be accidental or intentional, but could still cause problems.
> 
> Personally, I kind of think it is unrealistic for every person with unknown lineage frogs (because there are a lot of them out there) to not breed them simply because there is not exact locale data. In this case it would be better to simply call them "green/ black auratus '04 import" or "red pumilio '05 import" and keep them separate from the known locales.
> Bryan


Which was my point about me buying a "Patricia", but it was sold as a "Surinam". If I wouldn't have caught it ahead of time, it could've potentially been a disaster waiting to happen if it was with someone who was new. I truly believe it was an honest mistake by the breeder, but it just proves that these things happen, and just gives more of a reason to "educate" people with less knowledge/experience.

Btw I agree about the labeling, but with the potential for those frogs not getting bought bc of that label, some people have/will give them a defined lineage even if that info is incorrect just to be able to sell them. Its a sad but true fact. The question is: What to do about it/How to avoid it/and how to recognize it ... THAT'S the awareness that needs to spread. We all agree it exists, but not very many have logical answers to prevent it ... especially when they are given a "false label", bc its almost near impossible to know for sure


----------



## Dendro Dave

Gamble said:


> Which was my point about me buying a "Patricia", but it was sold as a "Surinam". If I wouldn't have caught it ahead of time, it could've potentially been a disaster waiting to happen if it was with someone who was new. I truly believe it was an honest mistake by the breeder, but it just proves that these things happen, and just gives more of a reason to "educate" people with less knowledge/experience.
> 
> Btw I agree about the labeling, but with the potential for those frogs not getting bought bc of that label, some people have/will give them a defined lineage even if that info is incorrect just to be able to sell them. Its a sad but true fact. The question is: What to do about it/How to avoid it/and how to recognize it ... THAT'S the awareness that needs to spread. We all agree it exists, but not very many have logical answers to prevent it ... especially when they are given a "false label", bc its almost near impossible to know for sure


Indeed...I have no doubt that at the very least a fair number of unknown auratus get bred together and just sold as "green auratus" or passed off as a best guess at a particular morph. One of the first g.a. I bought was an unknown. I tried to get another couple from saurian based on my best guess from pics, but when the frogs came I could see the subtle differences in pattern/color. The ones from saurian had very dark black, that was sharply divided from the green while my original frog was more blurred between the green and black, and the black had a different character to it that I can't really describe as did the green other then to say it was different. 

So basically I just chalked those up to display frogs and vowed to myself never to sell any offspring if I got some, or until I could pair the knowns up with some more knowns (which never happened). Now that I've been around a few years I doubt I'd even be comfortable keeping them in the same viv like I was then...vow or not. But I was on DB about the same time I got my first frogs, I did ton's of reading so I had an idea of what was up and why things were as they were and if those frogs had ever bred (which they didn't) they never would have been sold, or I at least would have told people what was up with them then...Now I definitely wouldn't consider breeding or selling offspring of such a likley mixing of morphs. 

But this place and what I learned here is probably why I had the mentality I did, and made the vow I did. Not everyone comes into the hobby that way, nor catches on as quick as some. But all that serves as a perfect example of how what we do here influences the hobby...it was the people here that potentially kept me from making a huge mistake and doing something that would damage the hobby.


----------



## Tony

Jellyman said:


> Everyone on the anti hybrid side assumes that the hybrids would be labeled incorrectly or cannot be kept seperate from the pure lineage frogs because the owners are not responsible enough to do so or that they would purposely mislead buyers.


That seems to be a very likely scenario. Look at the mess that orchid hybrids have become, unlabeled plants, best guess names and flat out deceptive misrepresentations are commonplace. We don't even have a hybrid registry like for orchids, do you really think that dart frog hybridizers would be able to keep their lines straight?


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## Philsuma

Here's the difference folks....

There are importers TRYING to do better. There are people as we speak, working on GPS verified pumilio locales. They should be supported and applauded

There are MOST breeders trying very hard to obtain and work with the best possible animals they can. They should be supported and applauded.

TWI ascention programe is very good.Support - Applaud.

and then...

There are other hobbyists. What are they doing? What are they working with? What are their goals with their animals? Do your homework on them. Read all their posts. Ask others about them.

There will always be people at odds with "the way things are done",in everything in life.

If there is a "pet shoppe" that falsely advertises almirante morph pumilio as blue jeans - post on a forum and protect the hobby and the new hobbyists.

If there is someone selling any given mixed up animal and calling it something it is obviously not......post up a thread and protect the hobby and safeguard the new hobbyists.

So...back to the argument that "all frogs are of questionable lineage" ? If we should only rely solely on someone with paperwork, GPS, sworm affidavit, photo documentation....then I think we are going to hard pressed to find more than 6 people and a dozen species to agree on. Throw out all the WC pumilio then, as well. 98% of the European stuff too.

Who do we trust then ? Who do we buy from and patronize ?


----------



## Dendro Dave

Philsuma said:


> Here's the difference folks....
> 
> There are importers TRYING to do better. There are people as we speak, working on GPS verified pumilio locales. They should be supported and applauded
> 
> There are MOST breeders trying very hard to obtain and work with the best possible animals they can. They should be supported and applauded.
> 
> TWI ascention programe is very good.Support - Applaud.
> 
> and then...
> 
> There are other hobbyists. What are they doing? What are they working with? What are their goals with their animals? Do your homework on them. Read all their posts. Ask others about them.
> 
> There will always be people at odds with "the way things are done",in everything in life.
> 
> If there is a "pet shoppe" that falsely advertises almirante morph pumilio as blue jeans - post on a forum and protect the hobby and the new hobbyists.
> 
> If there is someone selling any given mixed up animal and calling it something it is obviously not......post up a thread and protect the hobby and safeguard the new hobbyists.
> 
> So...back to the argument that "all frogs are of questionable lineage" ? If we should only rely solely on someone with paperwork, GPS, sworm affidavit, photo documentation....then I think we are going to hard pressed to find more than 6 people and a dozen species to agree on. Throw out all the WC pumilio then, as well. 98% of the European stuff too.
> 
> Who do we trust then ? Who do we buy from and patronize ?


Agreed....I also don't wanna see the old "questionable origin" frogs thrown out. I think most of us are pretty much doing the best we can there, keeping import years separate and what not. There is only so much we can hope for with those animals till someone rich decides to DNA test all our frogs for free...and I'm for those frogs sticking around, but what we can do is support the efforts of those trying to make sure few frogs that enter the hobby now and later are ever questionable.


----------



## Rain_Frog

and remember, we now know that Giant Orange and Regina tincs are the same except one breeder used a different name to market them. 

Physical appearances are not always reliable either for identification. As I've stated before, breeders report green milotympanum being found amongst red ones in resulting offspring. Stemcellular (Ray) reports brown viridis amongst green ones. 

Meanwhile, new data suggests that madagascariensis may really be more than one species. Betsileo was split into ebenaui and betsileo and the only way to tell the two species apart is locale data or a DNA test.

Unless there is locale data and good identification practices by the collectors and breeders, it is more of a faith based assumption that our frogs are of "pure lineage" but we may also be separating bloodlines artificially too.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Rain_Frog said:


> and remember, we now know that Giant Orange and Regina tincs are the same except one breeder used a different name to market them.
> 
> Physical appearances are not always reliable either for identification. As I've stated before, breeders report green milotympanum being found amongst red ones in resulting offspring. Stemcellular (Ray) reports brown viridis amongst green ones.
> 
> Meanwhile, new data suggests that madagascariensis may really be more than one species. Betsileo was split into ebenaui and betsileo and the only way to tell the two species apart is locale data or a DNA test.
> 
> Unless there is locale data and good identification practices by the collectors and breeders, it is more of a faith based assumption that our frogs are of "pure lineage" but we may also be separating bloodlines artificially too.


Yep...maybe we need a "state of the hobby" thread every so often...I think I suggested something like that actually. I feel I'm fairly well informed about the goings on compared to the average hobbyist across the board (not just those active here, dfz, other forums or frognet), and there are plenty that are better informed especially about behind the scenes stuff but I didn't know about the GO/regina thing or the Brown/green viridis thing till just now  Having something or some way were people can kinda pop in and check on stuff like that periodically might be helpful. It is important to get that information out there.


----------



## Rain_Frog

> If you manage to find a female with a reduced pattern and put them together to breed, that is called line breeding. You are now manipulating the genetics of the frog. This is extremely frowned upon in the dartfrog community. Most people on this board, or any other frog board for that matter, will be very opposed to that. Some people will be outright angry. Trust me, I worded something badly once and people thought I was saying that a breeder or myself were line breeding and Wow!! I got lectured over and over again! If it's not too late, edit this post before the wolves attack!!


There really isn't much of a difference here if some of our frogs originate from only one or two bloodlines. How many bloodlines are left of E. anthonyi Santa Isabel? Aren't most of our frogs originally Tor Linbo's stock (or didn't that originally come from Todd Kelley?)

Unless the private trade does a better job (and that is why we have ASN now) of managing our captive population genetics despite popularity trends, I don't think its going to make much of a difference as far as genetic health.

None of our frogs at this time are able to be released back into the wild. As someone else said, just because a person is interested in keeping frogs doesn't mean they automatically are assisting conservation efforts in the wild. So, any effort to keep "lines pure" is for the sake of frogs in the private trade, and not for the wild population. Perhaps some day this hobby could advance that far, but I don't see that in the short term.


----------



## Alpha Pro Breeders

Rain_Frog said:


> and remember, we now know that Giant Orange and Regina tincs are the same except one breeder used a different name to market them.


I've always felt they were the same frog, but have been keeping mine separate. Is there something published that states their the same frog. I would hate for people to read this, then find out later they are two separate frogs.

Alpha Pro Breeders


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## Dendro Dave

Rain_Frog said:


> There really isn't much of a difference here if some of our frogs originate from only one or two bloodlines. How many bloodlines are left of E. anthonyi Santa Isabel? Aren't most of our frogs originally Tor Linbo's stock (or didn't that originally come from Todd Kelley?)
> 
> Unless the private trade does a better job (and that is why we have ASN now) of managing our captive population genetics despite popularity trends, I don't think its going to make much of a difference as far as genetic health.
> 
> None of our frogs at this time are able to be released back into the wild. As someone else said, just because a person is interested in keeping frogs doesn't mean they automatically are assisting conservation efforts in the wild. So, any effort to keep "lines pure" is for the sake of frogs in the private trade, and not for the wild population. Perhaps some day this hobby could advance that far, but I don't see that in the short term.


That Is kinda another aspect to what I was thinking where with some morphs we might have a little leeway in the "designer" or line breeding area, because you are already working with highly related animals, or you are working with animals that essentially have no place in the hobby because they are unknowns and can't responsibly be paired up with other frogs. That stock could be used to satisfy the "desingers" to some extent and then we can label those designed frogs as "purple fire ball het albinos" or whatever and work from there to keep them separate from the rest of frogs except others which have been deemed "designer".

From there we can work to keep those separate just as we do any other morphs/locales or species. Basically a hobby within a hobby. Essentially you have the same set of risks regardless, because unethical or uneducated people would still have basically the same potential to cross and/or misrepresent animals that they do now. So from a practical stand point there is little if any increased risk...because its the uneducated/unethical that pose the risk in the first place and they can do that just as well now as they could with designer frogs. It may shift the mentality some, so it is more of a grey area and increase risk that way, but on the flip side it may give some people enough of an outlet to do what they want that they'll do it within the guide lines we set rather then going to far and essentially going rogue on us. So basically any potential increase in risk we add might be offset by potential benefits.

Its hard to say exactly how it would pan out, but most of us seem to be in agreement that these fringe aspects of the hobby will grow, and gain in popularity, so still I wonder if our best course of action isn't to try to influence the current, and have it happen by our guide lines instead of it being the wild west out there.


----------



## Philsuma

I just hope that 98% of us can agree and say:


_"The horse is NOT outa the barn....there are still many more reasons to be responsible and dilligent with our breeding, than not" ._


If you are reading this thread and have less than a couple years and just a few frogs in your care's worth of experience - you are peering _in_. 

Judge people by their body of work.....what they have done for the hobby. Be respectful of those who have gone before you.

There are at least 2 threads in this forum that deal specifically with Ethics as they apply to our hobby. Search for them. Read them.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Philsuma said:


> I just hope that 98% of us can agree and say:
> 
> 
> _"The horse is NOT outa the barn....there are still many more reasons to be responsible and dilligent with our breeding, than not" ._
> 
> 
> If you are reading this thread and have less than a couple years and just a few frogs in your care's worth of experience - you are peering _in_.
> 
> Judge people by their body of work.....what they have done for the hobby. Be respectful of those who have gone before you.
> 
> There are at least 2 threads in this forum that deal specifically with Ethics as they apply to our hobby. Search for them. Read them.



You got my vote


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## Philsuma

Dendro Dave said:


> You got my vote


Vote for the frogs. They are totally dependant on what we do with them.

Line breeding

Hybridization

Poor husbandary conditons

Misrepresentation

remember....we cannot_ undo_ something, once done.


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## rcteem

Philsuma said:


> Vote for the frogs. They are totally dependant on what we do with them.
> 
> Line breeding
> 
> Hybridization
> 
> Poor husbandary conditons
> 
> Misrepresentation
> 
> remember....we cannot_ undo_ something, once done.


So true...do research on the frogs and breeder before just buying them. When I first got into the hobby in 2003, I made the mistake on not doing research very well on a mix viv and listened to my breeder and they said it was okay to keep my darts with my newt...bad choice...lost all 5 darts


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## epiphytes etc.

agreed. yes i am new to the forum, but have kept a couple dozen frogs over the last several years. i have not, nor do i intend to do any breeding. however, i must say that anyone who thinks that most pdf's in the hobby are not already line bred (or inbred) are fooling themselves. i have seen this time and again. unless you are traveling to the various locales and doing population surveys, or habitat restoration or the like, you are not practicing any kind of conservation. you are simply keeping exotic animals for your own enjoyment. do not try to veil your hobby with implications of some sort of science. by and large, the frogs now in captivity are absoluty useless for any kind of reintroduction project. we are therefore not conserving anything.


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## Philsuma

epiphytes etc. said:


> i must say that anyone who thinks that most pdf's in the hobby are not already line bred (or inbred) are fooling themselves. i have seen this time and again..


What exactly have you seen time and time again? My frogs are not line bred or "in-bred" .



epiphytes etc. said:


> ....the frogs now in captivity are absoluty useless for any kind of reintroduction project..


Yep...we have all known that for years and years now.




epiphytes etc. said:


> we are therefore not conserving anything.


Do a search for "Captive breeding as way of conservation" as it pertains to our hobby.


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## illinoisfrogs

Philsuma said:


> .
> 
> Who do we trust then ? Who do we buy from and patronize ?


I trust Patrick at saurian. 

Just kidding, I think if you check around, and reasearch people's posts, you can separate "just in it for money" from "really knows his stuff".

By the way, who is "just in it for the money"? I'd like to know how you make money......because even if I'm selling babies, I'm putting more back into the tanks, etc. My wife would LOVE IT if I was actually spending in the black!


----------



## epiphytes etc.

i'm sorry if it seemed i was attacking those who are vigilant about knowing their animals origins. unfortunately they are the minority in this hobby. when first imported, the frogs are really just a few in number, and many of these never survive to produce offspring. blood lines do get thin after a while with no fresh stock introduced. problem is, how do we know if this stock is truly from the same population? it is well documented that multiple morphs can and do circulate under the same name. also some morphs are often encountered under various names. selective breeding does occur, even if we don't mean it to. those collecting in the field tend to select only the most beautiful individuals to export. we therefore do not really have any kind of "natural" gene pool. ugly frogs are out there in the wild, only appearing irregularly in captivity, due largely to expressed recessive genes. so, already, just a few generations removed from wild caught stock, we are not looking at animals entirely representative of wild populations. this occurs in all aspects of animal husbandry (be it frogs, turtles, birds etc.). 

captive breeding is widely celebrated as a means to slow the flow of wc's coming in from latin america. this is absolutely vital to helping to maintain wild populations. however there is still tons of collecting going on and many hobbyists jump at the newest acquisitions. i do realize that all captive populations come from wild sock, but feel too little is being accomplished to justify this constant influx. like it or not, pdf's are still taken out of habitat in vast numbers.

without some new technology, this hobby is completely unsustainable. we depend on tons of sphagnum, tree fern, collected hardwoods and other products whose demand is only growing. these products are slow growing and finite, yet we all use it regularly. we are now destroying habitat for other organisms, some quite rare in the wild, or even on the verge of extinction. it is hard to justify captive breeding as a means of conservation when it comes at the expense of other species.

perhaps we should open up some real dialogue about breeding efforts. i personally feel the hobby as a whole would benefit with some new direction. just like in any other hobby of this kind (herps, plants), there will always be species enthusiasts, and even extreme purists. but there are also many people out there who would be interested in a patternless auratus, for example, should a line become available. i doubt any "new" form worth distributing would be sold misrepresented. in fact if this type of breeding were to become acceptable, or even desirable, no one would want to sell their "new" form as something else that's been available all along. and since many pure species and morphs are already circulating under bad names, it is unlikely that line breeding would make much of an impact on those looking for "wild type" frogs.


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## Philsuma

Is this Fred ?


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## epiphytes etc.

no fred, my name is jason


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## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> Is this Fred ?


You just made me twitch


----------



## Dendro Dave

epiphytes etc. said:


> i'm sorry if it seemed i was attacking those who are vigilant about knowing their animals origins. unfortunately they are the minority in this hobby. when first imported, the frogs are really just a few in number, and many of these never survive to produce offspring. blood lines do get thin after a while with no fresh stock introduced. problem is, how do we know if this stock is truly from the same population? it is well documented that multiple morphs can and do circulate under the same name. also some morphs are often encountered under various names. selective breeding does occur, even if we don't mean it to. those collecting in the field tend to select only the most beautiful individuals to export. we therefore do not really have any kind of "natural" gene pool. ugly frogs are out there in the wild, only appearing irregularly in captivity, due largely to expressed recessive genes. so, already, just a few generations removed from wild caught stock, we are not looking at animals entirely representative of wild populations. this occurs in all aspects of animal husbandry (be it frogs, turtles, birds etc.).
> 
> captive breeding is widely celebrated as a means to slow the flow of wc's coming in from latin america. this is absolutely vital to helping to maintain wild populations. however there is still tons of collecting going on and many hobbyists jump at the newest acquisitions. i do realize that all captive populations come from wild sock, but feel too little is being accomplished to justify this constant influx. like it or not, pdf's are still taken out of habitat in vast numbers.
> 
> without some new technology, this hobby is completely unsustainable. we depend on tons of sphagnum, tree fern, collected hardwoods and other products whose demand is only growing. these products are slow growing and finite, yet we all use it regularly. we are now destroying habitat for other organisms, some quite rare in the wild, or even on the verge of extinction. it is hard to justify captive breeding as a means of conservation when it comes at the expense of other species.
> 
> perhaps we should open up some real dialogue about breeding efforts. i personally feel the hobby as a whole would benefit with some new direction. just like in any other hobby of this kind (herps, plants), there will always be species enthusiasts, and even extreme purists. but there are also many people out there who would be interested in a patternless auratus, for example, should a line become available. i doubt any "new" form worth distributing would be sold misrepresented. in fact if this type of breeding were to become acceptable, or even desirable, no one would want to sell their "new" form as something else that's been available all along. and since many pure species and morphs are already circulating under bad names, it is unlikely that line breeding would make much of an impact on those looking for "wild type" frogs.


I actually think there are a lot of valid points there. Especially the stuff about us using nonrenewable resources...or at least ones that are slow to renew when so many of us have a concern for the environment. From the language used I think you are over estimating the number of frogs being misrepresented. No doubt it happens but in my 6 or so years I've seen it rarely, and I think that would be the experience of most. It may be different for other animal hobbies but in our specific example it seems rare. 

What is more common is unknown animals. Stuff just labeled blue auratus, or green auratus...and then the influx of no locale pumilio we've had the last few years, but I think most keepers are doing what they can to keep those separate and minimize the impact. I'm not sure our gene pool situation is as bad as you seem to be making it out to be either. Things could be better but I don't think we will see our hobby crash due to gene pool issues anytime soon especially considering frog's seem to have natural resistance to inbreeding (as evidenced by some studies I believe) the number of bloodlines we do have(sure more would be nice especially in some cases) and the increase of active management using frog tracks, asn, and other such tracking/management efforts including the efforts being made to breed non related animals even when not formally participating in tracking/management efforts. I would like to see us shy away from influxes of wc in cases where that animal is not likely to thrive in captivity, would have a severe impact on wild populations and when we really have a pretty good gene pool already and they aren't needed. I really don't see the point of more WC very common auratus morphs or the cobalt tincs that have been coming in. Ok maybe the occasional shipment every few years but we are probably good to go on those and supporting new wc is just pointless and potentially damaging in some cases. IMO

Anyways I may nit pick a few points and argue degrees but basically I think everything you said is valid. Put simply it is stuff we should be aware of, concerned and thinking about. I think what many will be most resistant to is accepting a designer aspect being added to the hobby and condoned on any level by the majority. I think ultimately it may be unavoidable though and if that is the case I'd like to see it occur on our terms as much as possible. I don't think you deserve to be compared to Fred. Raising valid points, even when some may argue degrees or nit pick the fine points is one thing...open attacks, passive aggressive remarks, accusing people of smuggling, condoning smuggling and basically condemning the entire US hobby while constantly spouting misinformation is quite another


----------



## Ed

When looking at populations in the genetic sense of managament (number of animals needed to capture maximal alleles for short term (@200 years) captive managment. The recommended minumum founder population size is 50 animals and for longer term management the recommendation is around 500 animals (see for example 

http://si-pddr.si.edu/dspace/bitstream/10088/2350/1/Foose1988.pdf

http://planet.botany.uwc.ac.za/NISL...pters/Info to Use/Chapter7/MVPShaffer1981.pdf ) 

These numbers are well within the reach of the hobby but require participation in a program such as ASN (Amphibian Steward Network) where relatedness across generations, sex ratios in captivity and a lot of other data can be easily tracked. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't think you deserve to be compared to Fred. Raising valid points, even when some may argue degrees or nit pick the fine points is one thing...open attacks, passive aggressive remarks, accusing people of smuggling, condoning smuggling and basically condemning the entire US hobby while constantly spouting misinformation is quite another


You forgot refusal to accept information provided by the goverments of countries, as well as published in the literature..... 

Ed


----------



## HunterB

Philsuma said:


> Is this Fred ?


wow...i really wish that reference didnt make me shudder haha


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> You forgot refusal to accept information provided by the goverments of countries, as well as published in the literature.....
> 
> Ed


Ouch, when Ed burns a guy you know he deserved it


----------



## Ed

HunterB said:


> wow...i really wish that reference didnt make me shudder haha


I figured Phil put it in there to either catch my attention or to make me twitch.... 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Not new to frogging, but new to the board. Who is this Fred?
Doug


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Not new to frogging, but new to the board. Who is this Fred?
> Doug


The search function is a wonderful thing... 

Enjoy 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54899-would-you-buy-wc-lehmanni-73.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...9-help-against-smuggling-protected-frogs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/54624-illegal-frogs-forum.html


----------



## epiphytes etc.

oh, i get it...


----------



## Okapi

Dendro Dave said:


> I'd invest my time and money into building the perfect woman...who Ironically might also be partially blue/purple, super smart, able to speak, have wings and also be bio-luminescent. I do like the freaky girls


Sign me up for a green/blue one!


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## Dendro Dave

Okapi said:


> Sign me up for a green/blue one!


Cash upfront


----------



## earthfrog

Dave,
The blue/iridescent/purple girl you seek is on the movie called the Fifth Element. It's an older movie--she's an alien named Plava Laguna (or something similar). AWESOME voice! I used to have the sound track just to listen to her unique opera talent.


----------



## earthfrog

epiphytes etc. said:


> agreed. yes i am new to the forum, but have kept a couple dozen frogs over the last several years. i have not, nor do i intend to do any breeding. however, i must say that anyone who thinks that most pdf's in the hobby are not already line bred (or inbred) are fooling themselves. i have seen this time and again. unless you are traveling to the various locales and doing population surveys, or habitat restoration or the like, you are not practicing any kind of conservation. you are simply keeping exotic animals for your own enjoyment. do not try to veil your hobby with implications of some sort of science. by and large, the frogs now in captivity are absoluty useless for any kind of reintroduction project. we are therefore not conserving anything.


Maybe there is one category of hobbyist that keeps frogs for merely enjoyment. But there is another 'grey area' of hobbyist that keeps them for enjoyment and conservation. 

I think something that wasn't touched on yet here is what will happen when nearly all the available 'habitat' becomes either savanna, farmland or cattle grazing pasture....not to mention what becomes of all the other wildlife as well. 

That might well happen that within the next few decades for all we know. 

It's my opinion that before long, many of these frogs and other animals and plants will only exist in captive populations, and zoos or laboratories will call on more private hobbyists for specimens. 

For example, you can buy Begonia amphioxus right now for around $7. However, in the wild it only exists on two remote limestone outcroppings in Sabah, Malaysia.
Who's going to stand on those cliffs to keep someone from demolishing them? 

Is it not a conservation effort to maintain this life wherever we can?

Just my perspective.


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## tachikoma

earthfrog said:


> It's my opinion that before long, many of these frogs and other animals and plants will only exist in captive populations,


If I am not mistaken I think this is the situation of the blue and black auratus.


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## Enlightened Rogue

ChrisK said:


> You just made me twitch


Take a deep breath Chris... It`s only 3 months till Spring Training.

John


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## Dendro Dave

earthfrog said:


> Dave,
> The blue/iridescent/purple girl you seek is on the movie called the Fifth Element. It's an older movie--she's an alien named Plava Laguna (or something similar). AWESOME voice! I used to have the sound track just to listen to her unique opera talent.


(Off topic)
Eh don't know about the funky head. I was thinking more something along these lines...










And/or...










If there were girls like that in real life that looked like that naturally....I'd date em 

BTW somewhere on the internet exists some pics of very well done body painting using dart frog patterns. I cannot find them anymore though. If someone does please PM me the link.

Now back on topic... (sorry)


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## Dendro Dave

tachikoma said:


> If I am not mistaken I think this is the situation of the blue and black auratus.


Since when? I'm pretty sure there are blue and black auratus morphs still in the wild.


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## tachikoma

Dendro Dave said:


> Since when? I'm pretty sure there are blue and black auratus morphs still in the wild.


I was told this way back in 1997 or so. My guess is that at the time maybe it was believed they were extinct in the wild and since have been found in the wild again? I only mention this because I also remember reading it somewhere a while back but upon searching again I see nothing mentioned about that. I will try to find the original article and post it if I find it.


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## Dendro Dave

tachikoma said:


> I was told this way back in 1997 or so. My guess is that at the time maybe it was believed they were extinct in the wild and since have been found in the wild again? I only mention this because I also remember reading it somewhere a while back but upon searching again I see nothing mentioned about that. I will try to find the original article and post it if I find it.


I suppose its possible a few blue/black morphs are gone, but not all of them...I think WC blue/black auratus just came in within the last couple years. At the very least the super blue population still exist, though it will have a mix of green and turquoise frogs in it. I think most of the original blue/black came from panama didn't they? Pretty sure still blue auratus in panama...someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## billschwinn

I still have a couple pair breeding of an old line of Blue Auratus dating back I beleive at least till the early 90's.


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## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> Since when? I'm pretty sure there are blue and black auratus morphs still in the wild.


Blue and black auratus apparently come/came from several different seperarate localities. 
I had also heard back in the late 90s that they had been wiped out from one of the locations where they were known to occur. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> Blue and black auratus apparently come/came from several different seperarate localities.
> I had also heard back in the late 90s that they had been wiped out from one of the locations where they were known to occur.
> 
> Ed


Ok I can imagine one or even a few localities gone...but the idea that all of the black and blues were gone from the wild wasn't jiving with what I thought I knew


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## tachikoma

Ed said:


> Blue and black auratus apparently come/came from several different seperarate localities.
> I had also heard back in the late 90s that they had been wiped out from one of the locations where they were known to occur.
> 
> Ed


 Thanks for clearing that up Ed, I couldn't find the article again so no dice there. I'll keep looking but don't hold your breath.


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## epiphytes etc.

earthfrog said:


> Maybe there is one category of hobbyist that keeps frogs for merely enjoyment. But there is another 'grey area' of hobbyist that keeps them for enjoyment and conservation.
> 
> I think something that wasn't touched on yet here is what will happen when nearly all the available 'habitat' becomes either savanna, farmland or cattle grazing pasture....not to mention what becomes of all the other wildlife as well.
> 
> That might well happen that within the next few decades for all we know.
> 
> It's my opinion that before long, many of these frogs and other animals and plants will only exist in captive populations, and zoos or laboratories will call on more private hobbyists for specimens.
> 
> For example, you can buy Begonia amphioxus right now for around $7. However, in the wild it only exists on two remote limestone outcroppings in Sabah, Malaysia.
> Who's going to stand on those cliffs to keep someone from demolishing them?
> 
> Is it not a conservation effort to maintain this life wherever we can?
> 
> Just my perspective.


really a good point. my only concern is that many of the frogs around are really mongrels. blue and black auratus are a good example. different shipments from different localities all being sold as simply "blue and black" or "panamanian blue and black" at best. it is probable that these different locals have been mixed and/or interbred in the hobby. i have no evedence of such, but looking at the number of generic frogs being sold a shows...


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## Ed

epiphytes etc. said:


> really a good point. my only concern is that many of the frogs around are really mongrels. blue and black auratus are a good example. different shipments from different localities all being sold as simply "blue and black" or "panamanian blue and black" at best. it is probable that these different locals have been mixed and/or interbred in the hobby. i have no evedence of such, but looking at the number of generic frogs being sold a shows...



The idea of these being generic frog thing is one of the problems in the hobby. There isn't any thing wrong with keeping and maintaining those frogs in the hobby and this idea is often lost as a lot of people believe that by breeding frogs they are playing a role in conservation. As far as keeping them as pets, these frogs are just as valuable as those that are of known locals (they just need to not be crossed into the known locals). The reason they are just as important is that they still represent a frog that is found in the wild, create a connection to those frogs for the keeper as well as represent a portion of the history of the hobby in getting those frogs in and established. 

Ed


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## skylsdale

baita83 said:


> do you know if it is genetic?


What else would it be?


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## skylsdale

Ed said:


> The reason they are just as important is that they still represent a frog that is found in the wild, create a connection to those frogs for the keeper as well as represent a portion of the history of the hobby in getting those frogs in and established.


Absolutely.


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## epiphytes etc.

Ed said:


> There isn't any thing wrong with keeping and maintaining those frogs in the hobby and this idea is often lost as a lot of people believe that by breeding frogs they are playing a role in conservation.
> Ed


ya i agree. this is the essence of my last few posts.


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## Roadrunner

They aren't a representation of an animal in the wild if they've been "hybridized" from different locations. We don't have enough people in the hobby to keep locale specific frogs around, what do these mixed or unknown lineage animals do for the space available for the "known" lineages. If the unknowns are cool enough that everyone wants them then they push out a lot of the little brown frogs and less attractive ones. I understand that some people may never want the ones being pushed out but the more types available that there are the less room for each individual population that actually represents a real wild population.
As for conservation , one would have to define what they mean. If animals are gone from the wild along w/ their habitat and they are still in captivity, that is a form of conservation. As for keeping them around and the health of the captive population according to genetics you'll have to define what you want from that also. If you want the # of allelles found in wild pops than you'd have to have a big group. If you just want people to see what they've lost w/out doing genetics testing to show how much they still resemble the wild populations, then this can be accomplished for 100 years w/ only 6-7 generations by using the last animals produced become the replacement breeders. I have a pair of bicolor that is 14 yo and they came from a 13yo wc pair. That is only starting my f2 breeders and the "population" has been represented in captivity for 27 years. At this rate I'd be at f8 at 100 years(which I will not see).


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> They aren't a representation of an animal in the wild if they've been "hybridized" from different locations. We don't have enough people in the hobby to keep locale specific frogs around, what do these mixed or unknown lineage animals do for the space available for the "known" lineages. If the unknowns are cool enough that everyone wants them then they push out a lot of the little brown frogs and less attractive ones. I understand that some people may never want the ones being pushed out but the more types available that there are the less room for each individual population that actually represents a real wild population.
> As for conservation , one would have to define what they mean. If animals are gone from the wild along w/ their habitat and they are still in captivity, that is a form of conservation. As for keeping them around and the health of the captive population according to genetics you'll have to define what you want from that also. If you want the # of allelles found in wild pops than you'd have to have a big group. If you just want people to see what they've lost w/out doing genetics testing to show how much they still resemble the wild populations, then this can be accomplished for 100 years w/ only 6-7 generations by using the last animals produced become the replacement breeders. I have a pair of bicolor that is 14 yo and they came from a 13yo wc pair. That is only starting my f2 breeders and the "population" has been represented in captivity for 27 years. At this rate I'd be at f8 at 100 years(which I will not see).


Aaron,

As I've cited elsewhere you only need 50 animals to be able to capture most (>95%) of the alleles in a population and if that frequency is maintained, be able to represent that snapshot of the population for 200 years. 

Actually, if it behaves as the wild frog, looks like the wild morph/species, it can represents the wild example as long as it is kept in captivity.. You know the old adage, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck... 
Virtually all of the bengal tigers in captivity outside of institutions are not bengal tigers but bengal/siberian (Amur) tiger hybrids and all of the white tigers are bengal/siberian (Amur) hybrids yet those tigers are used to create a connection to the wild tigers and support conservation programs for those tigers. Outside of creating a connection for people to support the actual conservation programs those tigers have no value for any conservation program and cannot be use for repatriation efforts (see for example the reasons why the Dusky Seaside sparrow hybrids could not be released back into the enviroment even though all of the wild pure Dusky Seasides were either in captivity or extinct). 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

Then that's your definition of conservation. Some of us realize we can't do anything for Columbia except not buy histos. Our ability to conserve rests in the animals we keep. If we can't keep 50 unrelated individuals, we do what we can, that is, keeping the animals alive as long as possible. To me that's what I can accomplish for conservation. If our animals aren't good for repatriation we really can't do anything about that, can we. If our hobby creates demand and the country that they are indigenous to allows exports, we can't really do anything about that either can we? Is that not a part of conservation? If not we should try and find a new word for keeping animals around that aren't found anymore in the wild. Hence my saying we should clarify conservation as most people talk past each other when they discuss conservation. Either way there are not enough people serious about this hobby and experienced enough nor are there enough bloodlines to implement such an undertaking. So we have to be realistic and do what we can to keep frogs around, whatever that may be called.

Funny, last time we argued this you told me I might as well work w/ albino parrots as the genetic diversity available w/ terribilis morph makes them just about as worthless. 



Ed said:


> Aaron,
> 
> As I've cited elsewhere you only need 50 animals to be able to capture most (>95%) of the alleles in a population and if that frequency is maintained, be able to represent that snapshot of the population for 200 years.
> 
> Actually, if it behaves as the wild frog, looks like the wild morph/species, it can represents the wild example as long as it is kept in captivity.. You know the old adage, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it is a duck...
> Virtually all of the bengal tigers in captivity outside of institutions are not bengal tigers but bengal/siberian (Amur) tiger hybrids and all of the white tigers are bengal/siberian (Amur) hybrids yet those tigers are used to create a connection to the wild tigers and support conservation programs for those tigers. Outside of creating a connection for people to support the actual conservation programs those tigers have no value for any conservation program and cannot be use for repatriation efforts (see for example the reasons why the Dusky Seaside sparrow hybrids could not be released back into the enviroment even though all of the wild pure Dusky Seasides were either in captivity or extinct).
> 
> Ed


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Then that's your definition of conservation. Some of us realize we can't do anything for Columbia except not buy histos. Our ability to conserve rests in the animals we keep. If we can't keep 50 unrelated individuals, we do what we can, that is, keeping the animals alive as long as possible. To me that's what I can accomplish for conservation. If our animals aren't good for repatriation we really can't do anything about that, can we. If our hobby creates demand and the country that they are indigenous to allows exports, we can't really do anything about that either can we? Is that not a part of conservation? If not we should try and find a new word for keeping animals around that aren't found anymore in the wild. Hence my saying we should clarify conservation as most people talk past each other when they discuss conservation. Either way there are not enough people serious about this hobby and experienced enough nor are there enough bloodlines to implement such an undertaking. So we have to be realistic and do what we can to keep frogs around, whatever that may be called.
> 
> Funny, last time we argued this you told me I might as well work w/ albino parrots as the genetic diversity available w/ terribilis morph makes them just about as worthless.


Aaron,

First off, that is not my definition. 

I suggest you look at the requirements set forth in the literature for long term survivial of populations.. I have referenced it before and you can also find the appropriate references in the ASN manual (not that I expect you to bother). 

I think you need to reread those posts again as you have continually failed to understand the point I was making and have tried to misrepresented it at each chance you got . For some reason, you have decided that actually working to maintain the genetic diversity of the frogs will devalue the frogs you sell to make money. This attitude allows the continual swing in popularity to reduce the chances that those frogs will still be around in 50-100 years. By failing to try and maintain the genetic diversity, any populations that were not managed for genetic diversity and are still around in the longer term (making a large assumption they will still be around after that time as we have already seen species go through extinction events in the hobby), are going to be the equivalent of a albino parakeet (to keep with my statement at that time) unless there are continual imports to keep reestablishing the populations.
It all depends on whether or not you care about the hobby for the long term or the short term I guess... 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Ed, Aaron....Might I suggest you both have valid points? Yes unknowns could be taking up space in collections, space that might serve the hobby and possibly conservation better in some ways if it were used for known locale frogs, but also serves in the ways that Ed suggested.


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## Roadrunner

I guess I just don't understand you. First you say it's useless to work w/ terribilis since there is no genetic diversity, then you say we should keep animals around w/ no locale data and not enough individuals to maintain genetic diversity. Seems like your talking contradictions to me.



Ed said:


> Aaron,
> 
> First off, that is not my definition.
> 
> I suggest you look at the requirements set forth in the literature for long term survivial of populations.. I have referenced it before and you can also find the appropriate references in the ASN manual (not that I expect you to bother).
> 
> I think you need to reread those posts again as you have continually failed to understand the point I was making and have tried to misrepresented it at each chance you got . For some reason, you have decided that actually working to maintain the genetic diversity of the frogs will devalue the frogs you sell to make money. This attitude allows the continual swing in popularity to reduce the chances that those frogs will still be around in 50-100 years. By failing to try and maintain the genetic diversity, any populations that were not managed for genetic diversity and are still around in the longer term (making a large assumption they will still be around after that time as we have already seen species go through extinction events in the hobby), are going to be the equivalent of a albino parakeet (to keep with my statement at that time) unless there are continual imports to keep reestablishing the populations.
> It all depends on whether or not you care about the hobby for the long term or the short term I guess...
> 
> Ed


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## skylsdale

frogfarm said:


> Some of us realize we can't do anything for Columbia except not buy histos.


Colombia. The country is Colombia.

Columbia is a river in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.

Sorry...pet peeve.


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## Roadrunner

I should know better, I lived for a year on the Columbia river gorge in Boardman. So we can't do anything for Colombia's amphibians or Columbia's scorpions or horned lizards which are only left on the Boardman Bombing Range in that area, except keep what's alive in captivity.


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## Quaz

Ehhh... I removed what i just wrote so not to stir the pot more.

I must say though people... page 22 now...? 

These are pets for our enjoyment. There are knowledgeable, responsible breeders who have far far more experience then some of you here who willingly and knowingly line breed frogs for traits and not even once have I heard their names brought up against it.

This is a cool frog and I hope that the owner or anyone else that can will produce more. BTW it reminds me of Sean Stewarts sky blue azureus. He's been working on this line for over ten years. Super cool


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## driftfc

I'm with you^. I got into this hobby to have a beautiful looking creature in a stunning tank. All for the pure viewing pleasure of myself and anyone who passes by.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> I guess I just don't understand you. First you say it's useless to work w/ terribilis since there is no genetic diversity, then you say we should keep animals around w/ no locale data and not enough individuals to maintain genetic diversity. Seems like your talking contradictions to me.


I'm not talking contradictions... I did not say it was useless, you decided I was saying it was useless and have continued to misrepresent it. 

to quote myself 


> I really don’t care whose program one participates in/with as long as something is done to keep the frogs around… and this has nothing to do with attempting to make a quick buck via “puppy mill frog breeding” or good intent etc. What I am saying is that if the criteria you set forth are all that matters then provided the frogs approximate the color patterns seen in the wild, then the real genetic background of the frogs is immaterial as the market for the frogs will function the same (based on your criteria for what is needed for the frogs since they won't be released not my criteria). As patterns become common their price will drop until the fall out of favor and other “rarer” patterns will command top dollar until they cycle down and back again… just like the current morph market (or the bearded dragon, leopard gecko, boa, betta, koi, chinchilla, or lovebird markets). Currently there is a lot of interest but little organization in the hobby on keeping the various populations going in the hobby. As time passes and different populations cycle up and down in popularity losing genetic diversity, simply acquiring a frog from another breeder won’t guarantee that there is much if any diversity in the genetics (particularly since most don’t give the females any mate choice) so the acquired frog could be the genetic equivalent of an parent or full sibling (and if nothing is done potentially a clone of itself). …


You decided that I was saying your frogs had no value based on how inbred your frogs are based on your comment 

_


frogfarm said:



The problem is that my main species, terribilis is only here from one or 2 possible breeding groups each morph. I`m trying to not make them look like "just breeding frogs for money" since your plan says there is no hope for them.

Click to expand...

_As I pointed out in that thread as well, if nothing is done, then whatever genetic variation is going to be lost as the population waxes and wanes with each popularity cycle. With that loss the risk to the population crashing becomes greater and greater as whatever genetic variation in the population is lost. There are mathmatical models that have worked with anurans that show at what rate this is likely to happen... So again, it is whether or not you care about the hobby for the long term or the short term. 

As you have claimed it is all theory and that you don't understand it, I'm not going to continue to debate it with you as you have decided on an interpretation that is incorrect and have decided to cling to that decision regardless of any evidence to the contrary. 

Ed 

(And for those who are bored and what to see the original thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/48928-suppliers-wild-caught-frogs-8.html )


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## Roadrunner

That was a poor choice of words. I meant to say what's the sense if I'm just breeding them for money and there is no hope for them. I was a bit emotional.

And I'm not clinging to any model, I'm pissed that terribilis are short on time in this hobby. Your statements for me are about the same as there is no Santa Claus. From what your saying most everything has no chance long term because there isn't even enough genetic diversity to keep them around the next 50-75 years and then after that forget it if there aren't any left out there. 

I see you left out the useless as an albino parakeet part. So basically your saying it's useless to work w/ terribilis in the long term from lack of genetic diversity(1 pair) because there is no hope for a frog line that comes from 1 pair? Basically I have to find something else to do for"value to conservation" or rely on a whole bunch of other people to be around long term? Basically there's nothing I can do myself but breed frogs and put them in a program and hope for the best?


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> That was a poor choice of words. I meant to say what's the sense if I'm just breeding them for money and there is no hope for them. I was a bit emotional.
> 
> And I'm not clinging to any model, I'm pissed that terribilis are short on time in this hobby. Your statements for me are about the same as there is no Santa Claus. From what your saying most everything has no chance long term because there isn't even enough genetic diversity to keep them around the next 50-75 years and then after that forget it if there aren't any left out there.
> 
> I see you left out the useless as an albino parakeet part. So basically your saying it's useless to work w/ terribilis in the long term from lack of genetic diversity(1 pair) because there is no hope for a frog line that comes from 1 pair? Basically I have to find something else to do for"value to conservation" or rely on a whole bunch of other people to be around long term? Basically there's nothing I can do myself but breed frogs and put them in a program and hope for the best?


 
Again, you have failed to pay attention to what I've been saying for years now.. to again quote myself from the same thread 



Ed said:


> Required to do what? There are successful reintroduction/breeding programs with very small starter populations.. for example look at Przewalski's Horse.. in which the total population is decended from 9 animals..


There are other examples as well. A small populations doesn't guarantee it is doomed unless nothing is done (as the cycle will just repeat itself until the population cannot be sustained). This has been covered before.... repeatedly. 

We have seen other species temporarily lost to the hobby (would have been permanent if it wasn't for new imports).. one of the most recent were the bumble bee toads and if I remember correctly we could be looking at the loss of at least one mantella species unless something changes in the next 5-10 years...

The only way that this will change is if people are willing to register animals in a program allowing monitoring of populations. The more people that participate, the greater the chance we will still have the frogs around for the future. 

Ed


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## skylsdale

Aaron, I think what Ed is saying is that it's not impossible to be successful with a small founding population...but if you start with such a small number, for it to have the even a minimal chance, those few animals need to be captively managed and bred in a way that maximizes every bit of genetic diversity present in the group.

As things currently are in the hobby, that's just not being done, so the trajectory for captive terribilis probably isn't a good one.


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## myersboy6

anymore info on this frog? I didnt read through the hole post but i was wondering if your friend ever found a match.


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