# Northern Temperate Viv 2.0



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*Northern Temperate Viv 2.0*

I'm working on a concept for a large viv intended to emulate a Northern Great Lakes forest. 

This one will have seasonal temperature changes for the most authentic representation and to allow for keeping native seasonal forest plants. I hope to achieve the climate control with an insulated duct, window vent and fans for active air exchange with the outdoors. The enclosure will need to be an insulated cabinet with one or or two acrylic viewing panels.

This is to go into a public space and I'm writing a grant proposal for it. It will be a big job. I will be interested to hear ideas on construction and life support. I might have some questions and more thoughts on the project soon. 

The Neukom Vivarium was much of the inspiration for this idea...









(Wikimedia Commons image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Neukom-Vivarium-2919.jpg)


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I like the project. My first idea (many yars ago) was to set up a viv with temperate plants and orchids (here where I live there are many endemic orchids). Unfortunately, these orchids need a microclimate can not be reproduced easily in the viv. In addition, this species are protected by law because they are very rare and unique. So I switched to tropical viv.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

rigel10 said:


> I like the project. My first idea (many yars ago) was to set up a viv with temperate plants and orchids (here where I live there are many endemic orchids). Unfortunately, these orchids need a microclimate can not be reproduced easily in the viv. In addition, this species are protected by law because they are very rare and unique. So I switched to tropical viv.


Yeah that are a lot of really cool plants that one might be able to grow like this.

Of course, you can also just go out to a natural forest to see the plants and other things, but having them in an enclosure indoors makes a different kind of statement. 

I have been pondering ways to incorporate the insulation. I think the easiest and sturdiest option would be to just use an acrylic fish tank with a layer of insulation under the bottom and around the rear panel and both sides.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Somebody is helping me with a 3D drawing for this concept and I might have pictures to share pretty soon.

Now is a good time to go out and look for inspiration. Hemlock logs always look great out in the woods. They seem to grow a lot of moss. Dense hemlock stands are very shady and you don't find much growing under them, but I have found some nice orchids and other northern plants under hemlocks where they are mixed with other trees in more open woods.










There is a hemlock stand not very far away from here that has Goodyera rattlesnake plantain growing in it. That sure would be a cool plant to try in a 4-season viv.









(Wikimedia Commons image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Goodyera_oblongifolia_%28Western_rattlesnake_plantain%29.jpg)


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## Raptor22 (Nov 23, 2012)

Good luck on the grant! We moved from Northern California to San Diego when I was 7, and I have always wanted to do a "redwood forest" viv. I will really enjoy seeing this come together.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

very nice idea. can you tell us where it would be going? if you need a source of mosses, branches, or even plants like the rattlesnake plantain, and even some really cool club mosses i have a bunch out in my cedar woodland.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks you guys. Thanks for that offer Steve!

I have thought about it more and the vent idea does not seem like such a smart option. I think it would be too complicated to regulate and it would probably fail with the fan blowing when its -20 or 103 outside. 

I wonder about using a refrigeration mechanism(?). It would take a lot of additional engineering, but the tank could basically be turned into an inefficient chest freezer with a condenser. 

Does anybody have any experience with thermoelectric coolers? I snooped around a little bit. It sounds as though they are difficult to operate efficiently in wet environments or when the temp drops to near freezing. I imagine however that a thermoelectric cooler would be a lot easier to install. I have seen photos where units were just screwed into holes in the top of a cooler or viv enclosure.

There are a lot of cool plants to consider for something like this. I am guessing that some of the native forest wildflowers would require a frozen cold winter dormancy, but maybe some of the small evergreen plants (mosses, some ferns, small evergreen shrubs, rattlesnake plantain) would be OK with merely having a chilly (~40F) winter period and excellent air circulation and misting all year long.

I was amazed when I saw this long list of club mosses that occur in Wisconsin...

Pteridophytes of Wisconsin: Pteridophyte List

That really kind of blew my mind when I saw that. I have only ever distinguished between two kinds that I have seen here, but there are apparently more than a dozen species of club mosses in three genera in Wisconsin. 

If they grew right the little evergreen shrubs could also be really great in a viv planting. Just look at these cool little plants.

_Gaultheria_ wintergreen








(Wikimedia Commons image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Gaultheria_procumbens_6049.JPG/800px-Gaultheria_procumbens_6049.JPG)

_Mitchella_ partridgeberry








(Wikimedia Commons image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b1/Mitchella_repens_03.jpg/800px-Mitchella_repens_03.jpg)

_Chimaphila_ pipsissewa








(Wikimedia Commons image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Chimaphila2.jpg/400px-Chimaphila2.jpg)


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

In my case the problem is that many orchids require microclimates difficult to reproduce in viv. In addition they are protected by law. Here, where I live (Gargano, Italy), there are many species (86) of endemic orchids: a real treasure! 
Orchidee del Gargano - Wikipedia
I will follow with interest your project!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This is a quick bookmark for me...

Pentair Aquatic Eco-Systems: Aquaponics Supplies and Complete System Design - Epoxy Paints


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Now I have a better concept in mind for this and I think I am going to move forward with it.

I'm going to build a plywood enclosure sealed with epoxy and with an acrylic front panel. This is a lot smarter than a five-hundred dollar acrylic fish tank. 

I think I will use dimensions pretty close to a 47G Column tank (20" wide X 18" deep X 30" tall). This will be narrow, but with room to develop the vertical space pretty well. A setup like this will look good with a vertical tree stump planted with lots of ferns and mosses. 

I think I can make the vent idea work.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

That vivarium is amazing on the inside. I've wanted a greenhouse since I saw it a few years ago.

Anyway great idea, subscribed!


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

Wow! That viv. I'd pay big bucks for something like that in my living room.

Sub'd


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I hope to plan out the plywood construction with a sketch. I might be interested to hear suggestions for the smartest way to put it together. I'll plan to use a maybe 2 1/2" face frame and it might also be smart to integrate some kind of groove in the top.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm thinking about getting back to this project. 

I want to use a larger enclosure, something about as big as a 65G fish tank (36" X 18" X 24") might work well. It wouldn't be hard to start building a plywood enclosure.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

If you're not going to do a water feature that butts right up against the front glass, you know where you can see into the water column like an aquarium, you can just build a box the size foot print you want the tank, and as deep as you want the false/bottom substrate layer, line it with cheap pond liner and then build a frame over it and you could even use thin sheets of plexi glass (or real glass), magnetically attached to the frame (drill areas/brackets to embed magnets into the frame/silicone a thingies with magnets attached to the glass and you can remove all 4 sides. You don't need to hold back water so you don't need the structual integrirty of an aquarium. All you need is the sides/background glass/plexi glass to be strong enough to support the weight of your backgrounds without bowing or something. 

Something similar is how I plan to do the dryad viv so I can break it into 2 pieces and move it easily and reassemble it easily. Basically a modular design. You could put wheels on the wood base so you can move it easily too. Basically not having to hold much water and using the box as a base opens up some very large but very cheap vivarium options.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> If you're not going to do a water feature that butts right up against the front glass, you know where you can see into the water column like an aquarium, you can just build a box the size foot print you want the tank, and as deep as you want the false/bottom substrate layer, line it with cheap pond liner and then build a frame over it and you could even use thin sheets of plexi glass (or real glass), magnetically attached to the frame (drill areas/brackets to embed magnets into the frame/silicone a thingies with magnets attached to the glass and you can remove all 4 sides. You don't need to hold back water so you don't need the structual integrirty of an aquarium. All you need is the sides/background glass/plexi glass to be strong enough to support the weight of your backgrounds without bowing or something.
> 
> Something similar is how I plan to do the dryad viv so I can break it into 2 pieces and move it easily and reassemble it easily. Basically a modular design. You could put wheels on the wood base so you can move it easily too. Basically not having to hold much water and using the box as a base opens up some very large but very cheap vivarium options.


For this thing I think it would be easier and not too much more costly to just build a plywood enclosure sealed with epoxy. I intend to use automatic misting, so it needs to be sealed up all around.

My latest thinking is to use insulated ducts going to and from a window to recirculate cold air during the wintertime and cool air fall & spring. I also plan to use 1" pink extruded insulation around three sides and on the bottom.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

glad to see this moving again. you may want to consider doing a 2 pane acrylic front to really help with the temp and avoiding condensation. you could look into the small diameter insulated flexible duct work they use for ac in houses now. that may be a good way to bring in cool/cold air especially if the run is not too long to avoid cost. once you get this up and going you should come up for a collecting trip through my cedar woods and my hardwoods. im on 82 acres so there is alot to see and pick. i have 2 native clobmosses that i would consider musts in a temp viv. i will try to get pics of them soon.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

skanderson said:


> glad to see this moving again. you may want to consider doing a 2 pane acrylic front to really help with the temp and avoiding condensation. you could look into the small diameter insulated flexible duct work they use for ac in houses now. that may be a good way to bring in cool/cold air especially if the run is not too long to avoid cost. once you get this up and going you should come up for a collecting trip through my cedar woods and my hardwoods. im on 82 acres so there is alot to see and pick. i have 2 native clobmosses that i would consider musts in a temp viv. i will try to get pics of them soon.


Do you really think it would need double panes of acrylic? I was hoping to use maybe just a single pane of maybe 3/8" acrylic and then try to insulate as well as possible for the other sides.

I hope that a smaller diameter insulated duct will work. If the whole thing is buttoned up pretty tight then it might not need so much turnover to stay frozen. 

That would be great to go looking for material out in the woods. I want to find a mossy rotten stump or log with lots of insects and other life to use as the main feature. If I start on this pretty soon then I will have it ready to go by next spring. 

I hope that I can somehow keep the Eurasian earthworms and isopods out of the tank because I know that over time they will just take over the whole thing. 

I gotta go get the 4' X 8' sheet of 3/4" sanded plywood.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

hydrophyte said:


> For this thing I think it would be easier and not too much more costly to just build a plywood enclosure sealed with epoxy. I intend to use automatic misting, so it needs to be sealed up all around.
> 
> My latest thinking is to use insulated ducts going to and from a window to recirculate cold air during the wintertime and cool air fall & spring. I also plan to use 1" pink extruded insulation around three sides and on the bottom.


Oh it would be sealed, you could just get away with using much thinner glas/plexi glass to save on cost since it doesn't have to hold back a tank full of water.



hydrophyte said:


> Do you really think it would need double panes of acrylic? I was hoping to use maybe just a single pane of maybe 3/8" acrylic and then try to insulate as well as possible for the other sides.
> 
> I hope that a smaller diameter insulated duct will work. If the whole thing is buttoned up pretty tight then it might not need so much turnover to stay frozen.
> 
> ...



I would think standard fan system for vivarium use would work fine. Also If you're going to bring in air from outside but wanna keep bugs out this stuff might be good to put over your ducts...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...c-filter-foam-fans-vents-ff-lids-etc-etc.html


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I hope to get a start on the plywood construction soon. 

I intend to incorporate a hidden compartment on one side to accommodate hardware such as fans, misting heads and the insulated duct connections. I had wondered about building one internal vertical wall with the plywood, but I think it will be smarter to instead use a removable panel of 1/4" PVC sheet. The picture below shows a short wall of 3/4" plywood extending up to the depth of the void under the false bottom + substrate layer, with the PVC panel covering the rest of the area.

The enclosure will also have a top frame with maybe a 2.5" lip (not shown below) all the way around. 

I need to figure out some details and I might start another thread to think aloud and ask for input. Here is a quick sketch that I made.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think that the whole plywood enclosure will have dimensions something like 30" high X 22" deep X 48" wide. I want to have a broad footprint area with space for planting and arranging mossy stones and rotting logs. The side compartment will cut into the whole width, while the false bottom and substrate layers will shorten the open vertical space. 

I'm really wondering about how to make the top opening. My current idea is to include a frame with a cutout center to strengthen the whole box. The PVC sheet divider will complicate this a bit, but I think the frame can just surround the area above the viv enclosure area, with no real need to extend over the narrow side compartment too.

Should the top frame be recessed below the top edges of the walls? If built in this way the removable top--I also intend to build this mainly with plywood--will just slip right in nice and secure to rest on the top frame. The side compartment might have its own separate top covering. The top cover will include a glass or acrylic opening probably 36" wide for a light strip. 

As I mentioned before, the enclosure will will be insulated on the bottom, both sides, back and most of the top with 1" pink extruded insulation. I will also skin the sides with finished 1/2" plywood panel or something like that.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

consider the source here but i would make it larger.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

skanderson said:


> consider the source here but i would make it larger.


I would too, but I'm limited by space.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got four different really cool mosses from the woods at my brother's place. 

I gotta get some pictures. Maybe somebody here can help me with ID's.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This is a quick bookmark for me. I can get my evergreen groundcovers from this place... Special Site Plants - Reeseville Ridge Nursery


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

ive bought from there before and liked what i bought. good selection and prices.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

While I remember I want to quote these pictures by *rabu92*. These are really great for reference.

I want for this setup idea to incorporate some moss-covered stones along with leaf litter areas and standing stumps and/or fallen logs. It will be a challenge to fit so many things into this space about 20" X 45".

I want 


rabu92 said:


> Some pics I took this weekend. It was overcast, dark, wet and I didn't bring my flash... not ideal (had to use ISO1600-3200) but I got some ok shots.
> 
> Some scenery:
> 
> ...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I gotta decide whether to do this thing. It will be a lot of expense and take up a lot of room. 

Now I wonder about doing a scaled down version maybe only 36" or 30" wide(?).


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm trying to find more descriptions of plywood tank construction. Does anybody have any specific tips?

I don't know if the guy really knew what he was doing, but I found this older thread discussion on plantedtank.net...

WP's 250 gal Plywood Starphire Tank - Page 5


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I ran into another description of plywood construction. Somebody had linked it on Facebook. It looks pretty thorough... Plywood tank and Sump build.....


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## asunderco (Apr 4, 2011)

hydrophyte said:


> I'm trying to find more descriptions of plywood tank construction. Does anybody have any specific tips?
> 
> I don't know if the guy really knew what he was doing, but I found this older thread discussion on plantedtank.net...
> 
> WP's 250 gal Plywood Starphire Tank - Page 5


I've run into a couple videos on YouTube about plywood aquarium builds using liquid rubber as a sealant.

HOW TO: build a Plywood Aquarium - YouTube

HOW TO: Build A Large Aquarium 1/6 - YouTube


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks for linking those. I am interested in alternatives to that Sweetwater marine epoxy. I have already gotten exposed to industrial chemicals too many times in my life and I would have to be very careful and use a respirator with the epoxy. I wonder how the liquid rubber compares in terms of fumes(?).


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's a quick bookmark for that Pond Shield stuff...

Pond Shield Epoxy Black 1.5 Quart Kit

This might be the best option. The 1.5 quart kit is supposed to coat 60 square feet, but the inside surfaces of this enclosure will be less than 30. It will be just ninety-six bucks shipped to me.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

in my experience the epoxy is very low on fumes compared to most sealants. I sealed mine in the basement in the winter with no troubles at all.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Which brand did you use?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Have you considered just making the base a plywood box... lay in some pond liner material, then doing the sides in glass? Actually other then the front piece that would need to be glass or acrylic, you could use foam sheets as the sides and back, and maybe the glass on a sliding track mounted on the top of the wood box/base in front. As long as it didn't get abused styrofoam should work and you could make it modular so the whole thing could be taken down and moved. You could maybe seal the foam in contact paper then spray down clear plasti dip all around it. You just wouldn't be able to use really heavy background elements. You could build a wood frame though to attach and help support the foam panels. Then mount your canopy/lid to that frame. Again all this could be modular so when disassembled you had the box/base, side panels and 6-9 frame pieces. The nice thing about a viv is the sides and back/front don't have to hold back a crap ton of water.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Have you considered just making the base a plywood box... lay in some pond liner material, then doing the sides in glass? Actually other then the front piece that would need to be glass or acrylic, you could use foam sheets as the sides and back, and maybe the glass on a sliding track mounted on the top of the wood box/base in front. As long as it didn't get abused styrofoam should work and you could make it modular so the whole thing could be taken down and moved. You could maybe seal the foam in contact paper then spray down clear plasti dip all around it. You just wouldn't be able to use really heavy background elements. You could build a wood frame though to attach and help support the foam panels. Then mount your canopy/lid to that frame. Again all this could be modular so when disassembled you had the box/base, side panels and 6-9 frame pieces. The nice thing about a viv is the sides and back/front don't have to hold back a crap ton of water.



This sounds a lot more complicated than just building a plywood box.

While this enclosure will not hold water, it does need to be sealed up really strong. The substrate inside is intended to freeze solid in the wintertime. Any seam that is not super strong will just be popped open by the frost, and then the tank will leak.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

uscomposites site I used the thin or medium I believe. I used a layer of fiberglass over the whole interior and doubled up on the seams and may still have developed a leak this winter. it is the polyester resins that will melt your brain. you can also buy tinting to change the color if you like. the site is quite easy to use.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

skanderson said:


> uscomposites site I used the thin or medium I believe. I used a layer of fiberglass over the whole interior and doubled up on the seams and may still have developed a leak this winter. it is the polyester resins that will melt your brain. you can also buy tinting to change the color if you like. the site is quite easy to use.


Thanks. I did not know about that difference. I will still plan to apply the epoxy outdoors, if it ever warms again.

How did you assemble the panels? Did you attach the four side panels on top of the floor, or did you put the floor panel flush inside?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

While I think of it here is a livestock idea that I have wondered about...

Crownbees | Your Complete Mason Bees Resource

I could also go out and try to capture some bees, but it might be easier to keep these laboratory-raised animals happy inside of an enclosure.

Last year I attempted to start bumblebee colonies with foundresses that I caught in the early spring. It did not work at all.










(Wikimedia Commons image: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Osmia_ribifloris_bee.jpg)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

hydrophyte said:


> This sounds a lot more complicated than just building a plywood box.
> 
> While this enclosure will not hold water, it does need to be sealed up really strong. The substrate inside is intended to freeze solid in the wintertime. Any seam that is not super strong will just be popped open by the frost, and then the tank will leak.


The modular aspects I agree would complicate the build... Just an option I was throwing out there in case you were interested.

Building a box with a pond liner as the base I don't think is any more complicated. Simpler in some respects...

If you used an actual pond liner those are designed for outdoor use in variable climates. I'd think they would hold up to freezing as well if not better then many rubber or epoxy coatings...

Then you could build the 2 sides and back panel on top of the box and have the front glass siliconed to them, or you could build a frame over the box and silicone glass in on the sides and front, do wood in the back, or do it all in glass with a wood frame and all of that resting on the box with the substrate.

You could even build the box with pond liner, and then build a 3 sided wood box on top of that with your viewing glass and instead of sealing those sides and back with liquid rubber or something, just wrap, silicone, glue (or whatever) pond liner to the wood panels to waterproof them. Those panels only have to stand up to some humidity and some water running down them from misting if it manages to get through the planted walls (assuming you will be planting the walls/vertical areas). 

I think wrapping and then stapling some pond liner or some other plastic to the edges of the wood then sealing that with some wood glue or silicone to the frame then using wood screws to further secure it to the frame would be more then adequate waterproofing and give you plenty of structural integrity. Something like that may allow you to save some money since many of the pond armor, epoxy, or liquid rubber type coatings are pretty expensive. 

Basically my idea is to use the fact that the entire tank isn't under the same stresses an aquarium is and doesn't have to hold back a bunch of water to save money and simplify construction while still getting something that is sturdy and works for your purposes. Just spit ballin ideas


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I went to get the plywood today. 

Here are the outside dimensions that I decided to use.


46" length 
23" depth
31" height

The front panel opening will be surrounded with a frame 3.5" wide on the sides & top and 6.5" deep on the bottom, so the front window viewing area will be 39" wide by 21" high.

The top opening will have a frame 3.5" all the way around.

How does this sound?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm thinking about resurrecting this idea from last year.

I figured out a much better way to make an insulated terrarium enclosure. Here is a smaller one that I started on last fall.










Obviously this goes together easier than a plywood tank and will not require additional foam panels wrapped around the plywood. To finish a foam enclosure like this I would neatly wrap the whole thing with 4" fiberglass drywall tape, then seal with multiple epoxy coats. 

I never finished that smaller box last year. I think I might start again and build something 48" wide.


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