# False bottom + drainage lyer.



## zedly (Jul 19, 2013)

So i was reading around on the forum and lots of people were saying that a drainage layer (hydroton clay to be exact) is not needed when using a false bottom. on individual pointed out that the drainage layer, while not needed, does help with bio-filtration as it gives bacteria something to thrive on. if this is the only reason why i should use a drainage layer with a false bottom I'm wondering if i can just crumple up plastic wrap or something similarly lightweight to stick underneath the eggcrate to create a similar effect.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

A false bottom is not needed if you are going to use a drainage layer. They provide the same end result (providing substrate drainage). As far as bio-filtration there are other things designed for this that provide more surface area for the bacteria. Bio balls, the BIO-Filter Balls provide a large, multi-faceted surface area for the growth of the beneficial ammonia-neutralizing bacteria responsible for biological filtration.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I've been using false bottoms for years, without adding any "bio filtration". I don't see it as being necessary. The water in my false bottoms has never gone foul and stinky. Bacteria will colonize whatever substrate you are using and filter the water as it drains through the substrate. Bacteria will colonize the glass itself, that is underwater. It's not as if we have a huge bio load on the little bit of water in your false bottom. I just don't see it as necessary.
Either a drainage layer like LECA, OR a false bottom will work fine.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

The good thing about the hobby is it is constantly making advances to the way things have always been done. I am not saying you have to have a bio-filter just that I feel with more research on the topic it will change the outlook. Ammonia can be found virtually anywhere. The gas can be found in soil, water, air, plants and animals. However, once ammonia is exposed to the environment, the gas becomes ingested by plants, animals and bacteria. The vivarium is a self contained septic tank, all the waste is collected in the run off in the bottom of the vivarium. With the addition of bio-filtration, ammonia-N which is highly toxic, is converted to a less toxic form of nitrite (by Nitrosomonas sp.) and then to an even less toxic form of nitrate (by Nitrobacter sp.). Still new to me and still researching but everything i have found so far is making me reconsider how i have also had my vivariums in place. Im always searching for new ways to improve the enviornment my frogs live in. Someone correct me if im wrong this is just the conclusion i have at the moment.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I would consider myself an experienced hobbyist with freshwater fishes, more specifically - cichlids. I am familiar with the nitrogen cycle, although I don't know how it would come to play in the vivarium with a false bottom (either by a created void with eggcrate or by filling the space with other media i.e. Growstones). 

Since the frogs are not in contact with the water in the false bottom (as there should be a gap between the water and your substrate (i.e. ABG), then there should be no concern by us froggers. It would be interesting to see if there is measurable amount of ammonia, nitrates or nitrates in the water of the false bottom. This could easily be measured with an aquarium test kit.

With Growstones, you would think they they not only wick moisture from the ABG, but also have the ability to do the opposite as well. I do believe this has the benefit of keeping the ABG moist, but this is often not the concern of most hobbyists, as they are tying to drain excess water run-off. 

I think that there may be some benefit to using a media with a high surface volume in a false bottom, but I don't know if it's significant nor have I seen any evidence to support such. Hopefully, someone smarter than me can shed some light on this.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

Not all vivariums are set up the same. I have seen alot with pools for the tads to be tank raised. And from what i have seen there is no seperation from the water they are raised in from the vivarium water under the false bottom. So the frogs are exposed to the same run off as well as tads being reared in the water. It would be a different story as you stated if the frogs are not exposed to the runoff. However with pools and circulating water features it could become an issue. Just my thought.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

frogs are cool said:


> Not all vivariums are set up the same. I have seen alot with pools for the tads to be tank raised. And from what i have seen there is no seperation from the water they are raised in from the vivarium water under the false bottom. So the frogs are exposed to the same run off as well as tads being reared in the water. It would be a different story as you stated if the frogs are not exposed to the runoff. However with pools and circulating water features it could become an issue. Just my thought.


 Different scenario but good point. In that case, I would expect that if nitrate levels to increase until water is drained from the vivarium and new water is added.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

ecichlid said:


> Different scenario but good point. In that case, I would expect that if nitrate levels to increase until water is drained from the vivarium and new water is added.


Different scenario yet part of my train of thought. Im still trying to tie it in to the overall health of the vivarium since the water in the vivarium acts as its own system it collects in the bottom evaporates back to the top and comes back down in the form of condensation. So it the water that is recycled full of ammonia? Before you have nitrate you have ammonia and its the bio-filtration that converts the ammonia into nitrate isnt that correct? And without the bio-filtration the ammonia doesnt get converted into nitrate it stays in the form of ammonia. Which is toxic and could it be affecting the frogs and tads in a way not yet detected? Again its just an idea, it would be of interest to see the test results from various pool/tank raised tad set ups to see the levels. My tanks arent set up this way. I have pool areas in some with a gravel bottom that i keep drained that do not have drains drilled in place so i have no standing water to check. I guess i could try and collect enough condensation and see if i could get a reading from that to see what the levels are. It could even go beyond the vivarium and into the individual cups tads are reared in. Does the ammonia build up have anything to do with the over all size and health of the tads/frog-lets? I am still searching for the answers so any and all ideas are welcome.


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

Wouldnt this be another case to be made for using filter foam instead of eggcrate as a falsebottom? Plenty of stuff for microbes to live on correct?


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

My concern with filter foam would be... is it proven not to leach any chemical into the water. Again the goal is to create an enviornment safe for the frogs/reproduction/and development. If filter foam is proven not to leach anything into the water or off-gas from the material it is created from than i could see it being benificial for a biofilter. I am not saying it does leach chemicals i just want the proof it does not before adding it into my vivs with frogs


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I've been using false bottoms for years, without adding any "bio filtration". I don't see it as being necessary. The water in my false bottoms has never gone foul and stinky. Bacteria will colonize whatever substrate you are using and filter the water as it drains through the substrate. Bacteria will colonize the glass itself, that is underwater. It's not as if we have a huge bio load on the little bit of water in your false bottom. I just don't see it as necessary.
> Either a drainage layer like LECA, OR a false bottom will work fine.


I agree with Doug.

My drainage layer LECA tanks seem more natural but my false bottom tanks are much lighter and seem just as healthy. Also, the plant roots will make their way down through the screen and into the water and I believe this helps to filter the water. At any rate, the water in my false bottom tanks seems to be very clean and when I drain, it is almost clear with very little odor.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

frogface said:


> I agree with Doug.
> 
> My drainage layer LECA tanks seem more natural but my false bottom tanks are much lighter and seem just as healthy. Also, the plant roots will make their way down through the screen and into the water and I believe this helps to filter the water. At any rate, the water in my false bottom tanks seems to be very clean and when I drain, it is almost clear with very little odor.


As far as i know you cant detect ammonia build up by the clarity of the water nor do plants remove it. Not saying it has to be dirty or stinky to have an unhealthy ammonia build up. And as far as weight of the tank the bio balls are much lighter than the leca balls so your tank would be lighter.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

frogs are cool said:


> As far as i know you cant detect ammonia build up by the clarity of the water nor do plants remove it. Not saying it has to be dirty or stinky to have an unhealthy ammonia build up. And as far as weight of the tank the bio balls are much lighter than the leca balls so your tank would be lighter.


I'll defer to your knowledge on that. Does ammonia levels in the water in the false bottom effect the frogs? Fumes?


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

You have to have a biofilter to convert the ammonia into nitrites then the nitrites into nitrates which will be consumed by either algae or plans. As far as does it affect the frogs that is the question at large. It is to discuss the posibilities that i feel is often over looked. We are placing these animals in an enviornment that is more than capable of producing unsave ammonia levels that they are not naturally found to live under. The question wasnt has it been done this way for years its is this way we are doing things causing issues with our frogs we are not awear of. What affect does it have on the tad development and overall health of the frogs living in the vivarium. My goal is to try and find an answer for something overlooked in the overall condition of the vivarium and the affect it has on our frogs. Look at how ammonia build up affect fish exposed to the same condition. I understand its a little different but is it, our frogs live in tanks and glass jars that build up ammonia. How many monitor the levels in the tank or jars?Iim just trying to bring an idea to surface for those with more knowledge on the subject to chim in. The aquarium hobby understand the importance ,shouldnt we also look into it if its going to improve the well being of our frogs. And for those that are content with doing things the way you have always done them fine this thread isnt for you its for those looking for ways to improve the care and well being of their frogs. I wasnt trying to upset anyone just wanted people to think about the possibility and possible risk no matter how small you think it is. Im sure it affects them in some way its only natural that it has to. Anything they are exposed to has an affect on them in one way or the other.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

frogs are cool said:


> You have to have a biofilter to convert the ammonia into nitrites then the nitrites into nitrates which will be consumed by either algae or plans. As far as does it affect the frogs that is the question at large. It is to discuss the posibilities that i feel is often over looked. We are placing these animals in an enviornment that is more than capable of producing unsave ammonia levels that they are not naturally found to live under. The question wasnt has it been done this way for years its is this way we are doing things causing issues with our frogs we are not awear of. What affect does it have on the tad development and overall health of the frogs living in the vivarium. My goal is to try and find an answer for something overlooked in the overall condition of the vivarium and the affect it has on our frogs. Look at how ammonia build up affect fish exposed to the same condition. I understand its a little different but is it, our frogs live in tanks and glass jars that build up ammonia. How many monitor the levels in the tank or jars?Iim just trying to bring an idea to surface for those with more knowledge on the subject to chim in. The aquarium hobby understand the importance ,shouldnt we also look into it if its going to improve the well being of our frogs. And for those that are content with doing things the way you have always done them fine this thread isnt for you its for those looking for ways to improve the care and well being of their frogs. I wasnt trying to upset anyone just wanted people to think about the possibility and possible risk no matter how small you think it is. Im sure it affects them in some way its only natural that it has to. Anything they are exposed to has an affect on them in one way or the other.


What if we were to periodically put some water conditioner in?


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## DrawntoLife (Nov 12, 2009)

frogs are cool said:


> My concern with filter foam would be... is it proven not to leach any chemical into the water. Again the goal is to create an enviornment safe for the frogs/reproduction/and development. If filter foam is proven not to leach anything into the water or off-gas from the material it is created from than i could see it being benificial for a biofilter. I am not saying it does leach chemicals i just want the proof it does not before adding it into my vivs with frogs


"FILTER FOAM" it's meant to filter a fish tank... I use matala now on my angels and South American black water fish tanks filter, I think the fact my fish aren't dead proves it fairly well, before assuming the fish are hardy mine are sc altums. So I feel comfortable using it. Also like Doug said bacteria colonize everywhere in the tank where water is touching, needless to say that runoff gets filtered fine and is not toxic to your frogs assuming nothing is toxic in your substrate


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

DrawntoLife said:


> "FILTER FOAM" it's meant to filter a fish tank... I use matala now on my angels and South American black water fish tanks filter, I think the fact my fish aren't dead proves it fairly well, before assuming the fish are hardy mine are sc altums. So I feel comfortable using it. Also like Doug said bacteria colonize everywhere in the tank where water is touching, needless to say that runoff gets filtered fine and is not toxic to your frogs assuming nothing is toxic in your substrate


I was responding to a previous post i didnt say filter foam was a safe alternative. If that the case with the bacteria growing on everything the water touches than why are bio balls designed to be used in aquariums? Why is the content in the aquarium not enough room for the bacteria? Even with the addition of biofiltration in aquariums you still have to check the ammonia levels, do partial water changes etc.. What is enough space for a healthy biofilter to grow and keep the ammonia levels in check?What is the ammonia level of the water under your substrate? What is it in your tad rearing cups? Just curious?I will post my readings tomorrow, who knows maybe it will not be high enough to make a difference. You stated the water is not toxic to your frogs that comes from the run off unless their is something toxic in your soil where did you site this information i would like to read up on that. Maybe it will help me find the answers im looking for.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

frogs are cool said:


> You have to have a biofilter to convert the ammonia into nitrites then the nitrites into nitrates which will be consumed by either algae or plans. As far as does it affect the frogs that is the question at large. It is to discuss the posibilities that i feel is often over looked. We are placing these animals in an enviornment that is more than capable of producing unsave ammonia levels that they are not naturally found to live under. The question wasnt has it been done this way for years its is this way we are doing things causing issues with our frogs we are not awear of. What affect does it have on the tad development and overall health of the frogs living in the vivarium. My goal is to try and find an answer for something overlooked in the overall condition of the vivarium and the affect it has on our frogs. Look at how ammonia build up affect fish exposed to the same condition. I understand its a little different but is it, our frogs live in tanks and glass jars that build up ammonia. How many monitor the levels in the tank or jars?Iim just trying to bring an idea to surface for those with more knowledge on the subject to chim in. The aquarium hobby understand the importance ,shouldnt we also look into it if its going to improve the well being of our frogs. And for those that are content with doing things the way you have always done them fine this thread isnt for you its for those looking for ways to improve the care and well being of their frogs. I wasnt trying to upset anyone just wanted people to think about the possibility and possible risk no matter how small you think it is. Im sure it affects them in some way its only natural that it has to. Anything they are exposed to has an affect on them in one way or the other.


Ammonia from where? Frogs do NOT secrete nitrogenous waste in the form of ammonia.


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## DrawntoLife (Nov 12, 2009)

I take care of rare and very sensitive fish, I haven't tested
My water in years and I don't change water as often as some, they use bio balls in the reef hobby for more than just surface area, it used to be for a wet dry filter, also I only filter mechanically I have e ought surface area in my tanks without added bio media, so before going on further about what is needed to keep fish try finding a point in adding bio filtration in a frog habitat? Also we raise tads in tadpole tea and last I checked we don't filter it and growth is great and fairly fast, also mimics what most go through in the wild if people make their enclosures for tads rain. Ill finish my little argument by saying bio filtration in the Faldo bottom is pointless even with a water feature there are nitrifying bacteria everywhere including the substrate where water is draining from. And that my friend is why a frog tank shouldn't smell it's a naturally occurring phenomena


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

frogs are cool said:


> I was responding to a previous post i didnt say filter foam was a safe alternative. If that the case with the bacteria growing on everything the water touches than why are bio balls designed to be used in aquariums? .


Well effective biofiltration requires oxygen/ aeration via airstone, drip plate over bioballs, blower fan, etc.


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## DrawntoLife (Nov 12, 2009)

And to your last question I forgot to answer is ask anyone who has a water feature and a regular false bottom, the substrate itself as I said holds a huge amount of nitrifying bacteria because of the moisture and nutrients. By the time water drips down it has already been filtered. Let me know if you have another question that maybe I can answer without sounding like a douche, sorry about that btw


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

Here is my proof to back the questions i have for those that believe to be correct in their opinions. The sample was taken from a 40gallon breeder vivarium with a false bottom and a drainage pool that is designed for tad rearing that is not seperated from the runoff of the substrate. The sample was taken on 9/18/13 @ 5:30am and ammonia test was done using a test kit from aquarium pharmaceuticals,inc. The color was not minipulated in any way using any form of photo editing softwear. The photo is as taken. Again im not an expert but you can see for your self the ammonia level is between .25 and .50 ppm (mg/L). As far as the comments on tadpole tea and the releasing of the tannic acid im not sure what your question is in reguards to how that affects biofiltration. I also understand an air source has to be inplace for biofiltration this wasnt a thread teaching the machanics simply making people aware of the posibility of potential harm being done on some level inside the vivarium with out one. I dont think anyone is being a "douche" because of their opinions if you cant have a discussion without getting upset im sorry maybe you shouldnt be on a discussion forum. Now show me your "proof" to back up what your trying to feed me. Just because joe blow says its ok doesnt mean im not going to question him until i believe what he is spilling onto the floor. I am more than capable of thinking on my own and using fact to build my opinions not just hear say.


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## frogs are cool (May 22, 2010)

And here is a sample taken from a tad rearing jar. It looks to be between 2.0 and 4.0 ppm (mg/L). If your still in denial do the test yourself and share what you find thats the beauty of this site.


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## zedly (Jul 19, 2013)

so i feel that it is safe to say that ammonia buildup is a real thing in frog vivs after seeing those tests. do you know what a safe level is or if there is such knowledge available? where should i look for information on creating an effective bio filter or is it better to go mechanical


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I admit I didn't read through this whole thread, but I just wanted to point out one of the limiting factors for bio-filtration is oxygen. Nitrosomas and Nitrobacter need LOTS of oxygen to convert Ammonia and Nitrite. In a false bottom using hydroton or bio balls, below a layer of substrate, the bacteria are unlikely to be in contact to make an effective bio-filter. Just something to keep in mind.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

If you have a water feature that is attached to your false bottom, wont that work? 

I have a 3-4" fall in my viv where the water runs over a rock waterfall. 

Lots of surface area, lots of o2. 

Should be completing the nitrogen cycle just fine over here.


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## DrawntoLife (Nov 12, 2009)

zedly said:


> so i feel that it is safe to say that ammonia buildup is a real thing in frog vivs after seeing those tests. do you know what a safe level is or if there is such knowledge available? where should i look for information on creating an effective bio filter or is it better to go mechanical


What his picture actually proves is the buildup is so small that it is barely registering on the test which is what I see, in a tadpole rearing cup he notes a 2.0 ppm versus .25-.50 when filtered through a substrate and biofilm


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think the there are a lot of differences between vivarium's and aquariums. The first one is and IMO the important one is bio load. Aquariums are often community and people attempt to stick as many fish in it as they can. Frog vivarium's are not like this. Think of rules of thumb, 1 inch of fish per 1 gallon of water (*please do not harass me about this not being exactly accurate). Frogs are more like 1 inch of frog for 10 gallons* and limited by their behavior, so an order of magnitude difference in bio load. Next lets not focus just on ammonia, all waste presents the possibility of build up and negative health consequences, this is the beauty of microbial based filtration, whatever is in the water microbes will eat and over time they will balance their community and processes to utilize all the waste. 

In an aquarium, the fish excrete into a highly diffusible and mixing environment. So whatever ammonia or other wastes go into the water, they spread out quickly everywhere. In a vivarium if a frog poops on the front of your glass, it stays there till you wash it off. So it can be degraded in place without spreading everywhere. It creates a microenvironment. And if the frog or other organisms do not like that they can actually move away from it. Fish cannot get away from waste build up they are "breathing" it directly in all the time. 

That said if you have a large enough fish tank and a small enough number of fish some people can get away with no filtration. In fact many fish tanks are probably close, that's why under gravel filters worked which had no extra surface area over your typical tank. 

Also the ABG and other substrates are really similar to aquarium filters, so your water is going through a filter before it makes it to the bottom, even has the charcoal in many cases. 

Finally your frogs wont hang out in the water all the time even if it is exposed to them.


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