# Just b/c you can doesn't mean you should (using small aquariums and vivs)



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

I looked for previous threads, and I am sure there are some out there, but I wanted to start a discussion about using 10gal aquariums as permanent vivs for frogs.

First, I would raise the question of why? Why are you only usoing a 10gal aquarium. Because of limited space? Limited budget? Its not because 10 gallons is the 'perfect size' for dart frogs, or because it will provide a 'great' environment. Its likely because of the froggers limitations, whatever they may be.


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## Dart_Man (Mar 23, 2013)

First of all, I would like to say thank you for moving this convo onto its own thread. 

Onto the subject of "why" I would say limited space has a lot to do with it. I have shelving inlaid to my walls and it leaves limited room to fit a tank on it. On the other hand (as with one of my vivs) I already had a 10g at my house and decided to turn it into a viv opposed to sitting unused. My exo, I found it at a very reasonable price on craigslist and thought it would be good for a pair with proper layout and planting. I agree that leaning on the safer side is always better, but sometimes it is not possible or will just cost a lot more time and money. If you have any time, I post threads on all my vivs during the build phase. Let me know what YOU would put in each  .... although most are already inhabited, but just for discussions sake.

I do believe it is hard to be universal too, as tanks can be set up and laid out in so many ways, that it will dictate capacity a lot. Thus, making it tough to have a standard MUST for gallons per frog depending on species. 

With that, I am all for putting frogs in the right sized space and doing anything I can to prevent frogs from getting stressed. Looking forward to hearing more opinions, glad you started this thread!


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> I looked for previous threads, and I am sure there are some out there, but I wanted to start a discussion about using 10gal aquariums as permanent vivs for frogs.
> 
> First, I would raise the question of why? Why are you only usoing a 10gal aquarium. Because of limited space? Limited budget? Its not because 10 gallons is the 'perfect size' for dart frogs, or because it will provide a 'great' environment. Its likely because of the froggers limitations, whatever they may be.


isn't there any basis for claiming this as a bad practice, to begin with?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dart_Man said:


> First of all, I would like to say thank you for moving this convo onto its own thread.
> 
> Onto the subject of "why" I would say limited space has a lot to do with it. I have shelving inlaid to my walls and it leaves limited room to fit a tank on it. On the other hand (as with one of my vivs) I already had a 10g at my house and decided to turn it into a viv opposed to sitting unused. My exo, I found it at a very reasonable price on craigslist and thought it would be good for a pair with proper layout and planting. I agree that leaning on the safer side is always better, but sometimes it is not possible or will just cost a lot more time and money. If you have any time, I post threads on all my vivs during the build phase. Let me know what YOU would put in each  .... although most are already inhabited, but just for discussions sake.
> 
> ...


First, I will say that I looked at your vivs. They are nicely laid out and have good vertical space, and good floor space. 

My point is, these are really less then ideal for breeding frogs, which is generally the point of acquiring a "pair." I have 10g verts that I currently use for grow-outs or temporary homes for frogs while I am finishing/re-doing vivs, and they work fine for that purpose. 

As Ron (CaptainRon) pointed out, many of us have found better success with larger vivs for pumilio pairs. It seems that 20G and even better, a 18x18x24 produces better results. 

I suggested smaller pumilio locales b/c I think they would be slightly more comfortable in the smaller tanks sizes you are discussing. But many of us support the concept of fewer, bigger tanks as oppose to a bunch of small tanks.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> isn't there any basis for claiming this as a bad practice, to begin with?


There are quite a few additional reasons why many hobbyists discourage people from keeping frogs in smaller tanks. I really wish I could find some of the previous threads that detail some of those reasons. But basically, it boils down to the fact that its easier to provide the frogs with an ecosystem that meets their needs in a viv that is 20,30, 40 gallons than it is in a 10 gallon. I'm sure there is a point at which there are diminishing returns from increasing the volume of the viv, but generally bigger is better. A properly designed, larger viv, should provide a variety of temperature/humidity gradients, adequate shelter, a variety of breeding/calling spots, hides, healthy microfauna populations and more...


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## CJ PELCH (Apr 9, 2013)

I had a 20 gallon horizonal that I kept my breeding pair of azureus in and they NEVER BRED at all. Got frustrated and switched them to a 10 Gallon Vert and they started breeding. I put them back in the 20 gallon vert after the breeding to see if it was just environmental but once again they will not breed. Ill probably get alot of smack for this..but honestly the frogs just did the work themselves. I saw results in a smaller tank. I do like larger tanks though. Just for the comfort of the frog. End of story on my part.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

A 10 gallon defintely helps people with pokemon syndrome cram a lot of animals into a small amount of space. An 18 vert is the same height as a 10 vert.... just deeper, which isnt an issue with the racks people use... Why not give them more space? Also, the smaller the tank, the quicker it gets scummy with algae on the glass. 


I know a lot of breeders who use 10s Its fine. The frogs breed and are fat and happy... For me, I choose to have fewer, larger tanks and am very happy with my decision. Upkeep to keep them looking nice is very minimal, and I think that theres no denying the aesthetic appeal of a larger, nicely planted tank. Especially important if youve got ninja frogs like my fantastica...... better enjoy the tank and assume youll rarely see the frogs. 

18 cube minumum for me, prefer 18x18x24.


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

I agree ESPECIALLY with oophaga that larger vivs are better. I typically use a 18" cube for a pair but for trios I am doing 40g Breeders of any pumilio. Currently I am working on one for a Darklands trio and just finished one for a quepos trio. However, that being said... I have seen more tads and production at places with mostly nothing but ten gallons. But, pumilio were not being worked with. Tincs and thumbs mostly. I do have 10's for grow out tanks and a few pairs of smaller tincs are in 10s and they breed just fine. But even with thumbnails, I don't typically use tens. Turned the one tank I got from you Craig into a beautiful viv for Iquitos. Pair of Uyama are going in the other.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

CJ PELCH said:


> I had a 20 gallon horizonal that I kept my breeding pair of azureus in and they NEVER BRED at all. Got frustrated and switched them to a 10 Gallon Vert and they started breeding. I put them back in the 20 gallon vert after the breeding to see if it was just environmental but once again they will not breed. Ill probably get alot of smack for this..but honestly the frogs just did the work themselves. I saw results in a smaller tank. I do like larger tanks though. Just for the comfort of the frog. End of story on my part.


Its interesting to hear about people's individual experiences sometimes, and when politely stated, there's no need for a lot of 'smack.' There's a variety of reasons this could have happened, but it certainly isn't the common findings of the hobby. But it sounds like you also realize this isn't ideal, and that is really the point of this discussion. 

We want hobbyists, especially the newer hobbyists, to resist the 'pokemon effect' that a lot of people go through. Focus on a few frogs, transition to a few groups, and really get to know them. Learn about their behaviors, their environment, good husbandry, etc. Provide a great environment for them, not just the bare minimum.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

pafrogguy said:


> Turned the one tank I got from you Craig into a beautiful viv for Iquitos. Pair of Uyama are going in the other.


Ummm...pictures speak louder than words dude


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## CJ PELCH (Apr 9, 2013)

cbreon said:


> Its interesting to hear about people's individual experiences sometimes, and when politely stated, there's no need for a lot of 'smack.' There's a variety of reasons this could have happened, but it certainly isn't the common findings of the hobby. But it sounds like you also realize this isn't ideal, and that is really the point of this discussion.
> 
> We want hobbyists, especially the newer hobbyists, to resist the 'pokemon effect' that a lot of people go through. Focus on a few frogs, transition to a few groups, and really get to know them. Learn about their behaviors, their environment, good husbandry, etc. Provide a great environment for them, not just the bare minimum.


Your right its definatly not IDEAL. I actually misread your thread anyway. You stated Permanent Tank. I at this time will start building a Permanent tank for them. As I am quite aware of this 20G not to their liking. 18x18x24 is what Im shooting for. Im getting some help with Deranged Chipmunk on building a vivarium. Hes been teaching me ALOT on better building strategies. I used silicone and eco earth and great stuff before...Well thats all changing... NO MORE SILICONE!! =)


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> There are quite a few additional reasons why many hobbyists discourage people from keeping frogs in smaller tanks.


You're making an appeal to popularity, not outlining an actual negative impact those space limitations have. From my understanding, 10 gallons have been the standard size for most of the hobby's history and used by all manner of individuals who one would be pressed to claim as anything but successful dendrobatid keepers. So short of some demonstrable harm, you're simply asserting one preference over another. 



> A properly designed, larger viv, should provide a variety of temperature/humidity gradients, adequate shelter, a variety of breeding/calling spots, hides, healthy microfauna populations and more...


what seems important is that the viv is properly designed. If it's not properly designed it's going to be a poor environment regardless of volume


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Well excuse me Craig lol. Here ya go


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Don't mind the silicone. thought I would need it to FF proof but that little ledge does the trick pretty well, so I peeled it off.


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Here is the popa viv. Small exo meant just as a temp and a tank for them to grow up, but next you know tads are in there, so I just left them be. Old picture so it is a bit more grown in now but you get the idea.


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## CJ PELCH (Apr 9, 2013)

pafrogguy said:


> Well excuse me Craig lol. Here ya go


Well I admire it Very much


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I liked the 18talls but I'm not seeing many of those around our local petsmart/petco anymore  ...So for me I'm mostly going to a minimum of 20H either as horizontal or vert, or 20L's. I will be using 10gals now as quarantine/temporary tanks, froglet/plant growout tanks or to house single frogs. 

I've just found over the years not only do my frogs do better, but larger tanks are much more enjoyable. I try to avoid 10's as permanent housing for adult frogs now.


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

I agree. I like building vivs too much to do 10 gallons. I am starting to build my own tanks anyways so I can make the exact dimensions I want. I hate that I can't get two 18" exos on a 36" rack because of the 1/4 inch frame on them. And I would rather have a bit more horizontal space for tincs instead of the extra height.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

People seem to forget that poison dart frogs have quite some will to live and fight..

will WC and even CB frogs mate and breed in a shoe or plastic box? 

YES, they will! 

Should we be striving for that? No!

Just because it works, doesnt necessarily mean we should do it.

I have seen Oophaga kept successfully in 30cm wide, 30cm high and 40cm deep tanks.....but still




Another point in my opinion is: keeping humidity and temperature balanced in a small tank proves to be much more difficult then in big tanks.

in big tanks you'll have a (small but still) temperatur difference and light and dark spots and different levels of humidity available so the frogs can choose the spots suiting them best.


in a small tank temp and humidity either are working or they're not...


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think no matter what hobby you are in it is taboo to mention the 10 gallon tank. lol But really a 20 gallon has about a half a hop of more floor space for a dart frog no matter which way you lay it. 

IMO the hobby should think seriously about going against their gut reaction against the 10 gallon tank. If people are successfully breeding frogs in these and no one has presented good evidence this is unhealthy for a pair of frogs then it can be seen as a strength when trying to expand the hobby. The 10 gallon tank is just like so much cheaper than anything else. Heck its cheaper than 5.5 gallons around me. And the largest enemy of the dart frog hobby is the accessibility of the hobby. Focus your attention on getting the 10 gallon people to add enough stuff in their tank to make it feel roomy and it will be better than many of the 20 gallon tanks I have seen used in breeding operations. 

No one needs to be told that bigger is better. They will desire that on their own if they have the space and funds. But by the talks in here the 18x18x24 seems to be the minimum size to not have social services called on you. But I have seen plenty of breeders and not many tanks that big.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

PumilioTurkey said:


> People seem to forget that poison dart frogs have quite some will to live and fight..
> 
> will WC and even CB frogs mate and breed in a shoe or plastic box?
> 
> ...




No one is citing actual data that demonstrates harm from that sized environment and are only asserting a preference. Frogparty was careful enough to make that clear, others have not


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm with Pub on this one.

This propensity to dismiss 10g tanks as a viable option for a permanent tank is absurd.

This "bigger is better" attitude just adds to the dogma already in the hobby.
If a 10g tank is properly setup, it will work just as well as a tank much bigger.

Where is this temp/humidity is hard to control in a 10g coming from? I completely disagree with this statement as well.
(See above statement)

When I 1st started, ALL of my tanks were 10g tanks & guess what, I did nothing different then, that I do now with bigger tanks... and I've had ZERO issues & I'm sure plenty of other "old school" froggers would agree.
At one point in time, 10g tanks were the standard, not the exception ... and nothing has really changed for that line of thinking to change either.

The example of Pums doing better in a bigger tank has nothing to do with the tank size & everything thing to do with the floor space a bigger tank provides in order to increase microfauna production which is essential to froglet survival.

The only negative to a 10g that I can see is that they do get dirtier faster ... but all that means is that an owner has to be more diligent in their tank maintenance. 

Now please don't misunderstand, a bigger tank is a good thing & i think it should be taken into consideration when planning on a frog purchase. (IE. Terribilis, Trivs, Pepperi ... etc)

BUT As stated, the whole bigger is better mentality is ALL personal preference ... and shouldn't be passed off as a requirement; bc it's not.

The care & husbandry of our frogs IS what's important ... not the tank size.

Bigger is NICER but it's not necessarily better ... and its certainly not a necessity.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I have had a lone female Azureus in a 10 gallon for the last 2 years. She is very healthy and happy, eats like a champ and comes right up front and says good morning to me every day.

John


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> This "bigger is better" attitude just adds to the dogma already in the hobby.
> If a 10g tank is properly setup, it will work just as well as a tank much bigger.


I'm going to disagree here... If both enclosures are properly set-up, then a larger enclosure is going to be better for a number of reasons. In no particular order, 
1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations 
2) potential for more niches
3) potential for wider thermal gradients 
4) encourages more natural behaviors 




> The example of Pums doing better in a bigger tank has nothing to do with the tank size & everything thing to do with the floor space a bigger tank provides in order to increase microfauna production which is essential to froglet survival.


Actually it is an indication of tank size. In general size of tank indicates a greater floor area (although it does not increase at the same rate due to the difference between volume and surface area). 



> Bigger is NICER but it's not necessarily better ... and its certainly not a necessity.


It's been awhile since I posted my list of things to evaluate the hobby... lets see if I can remember all of it now.... 

1) getting the frogs to survive for a length of time 
2) getting the frogs to survive long enough to breed 
3) getting sufficient reproduction to exceed mortality 
4) encouraging natural behaviors while still meeting #3
5) having median life span approach maximum life span while still meeting all of the requirements of #4
6) encouraging the maximum natural behaviors while meeting all of the requirements of #4

I still think that the vast majority of the hobby is somewhere between 2 and 4 depending on the species/population in question. 

While for a huge period of time, ten gallon tanks were the standard for dendrobatid husbandry and often are still used for them, it isn't dogma to encourage larger and better set up enclosures for the frogs as long as the history of the hobby is acknowledged. 

One of the things missing from this discussion is the difference between a well set up ten gallon tank and a poorly set up larger enclosure.. In that case, a ten gallon tank can provide more functional space for the frogs. This has been discussed before. 

Some comments 
Ed


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

My concern is most froggers goal is to have their pumilio breed and have viable offspring.IMO the froglets do much better surviving and being future good breeders,if left in the viv w/adults for 3 months or so.This now creates a problem,because at 3-4 months the froglets are starting to catch up to parents in size.So with possible multiple clutches of different ages,along w/adults,thats a lot of frogs in a small space,all competing for food,hiding spots.To me ,it just seems like in a larger viv,things will be a lot more comfortable for the adults/offspring,resulting in better production of healthier frogs.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

I agree with What Craig is trying to Achieve with this thread...I also believe that you shouldnt compromise the frogs optimal environment in order to have more frogs on your rack.. 
I use 18 X24 tall Zoomeds For Oophaga & 20Hs...I have used 10 Gln Verts for Thumbnails though & they dont seem too crammed. 
Also I couldnt agree more with what Ed mentioned & how he phrased it. That a larger tank *Properly setup* is more favorable then a smaller one *properly setup*. For me I took from this that it is key to have the tank whater the size, set up right. Im sure most of the experienced Froggers & Herp keepers are aware of this, but its worth mentioning just in case someone can benefit from this. a 20H with just leaf litter, a few Broms & Hides, missing Wood and/or Large foliage to Climb on throughout the center of the tank is really not practical for an arboreal or even semi-arboreal species which most Dendrobates are.. I would even go so far as to say a 20H that doesnt utilize vertical space properly is not a 20H as far as the frogs are concerned & you are wasting your space as well as theirs. Setting up a tank properly for the species & allowing the frogs to Utilize various heights within the enclosure allow you to get the most out of the particular size you have chosen. While floor space is important for many reasons you have to factor in *USEABLE SPACE* when evaluating your Vivaria upon its completion as well. I guess thats my point.


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## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

I always thought it was weird to limit the vivarium height for frogs that were considered terrestrial. Nearly every vivarium you can fit in your home is going to be terrestrial. More height helps with creating different micro niches of temperature and humidity inside the vivarium. 

Is the typical vivarium layout with 3 sides built up and an open floor space in the middle actually an ideal setup? It's like the Colosseum, and it could very well be a source for unnatural aggression in a vivarium. The frogs always have to see each other in that type of setup unless they're in hiding.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Most people waste the majority of the space in their vivs. So much open air, such thick backgrounds, unnecessary water features...... A well designed viv has so many different usable levels. Floor, background, mid level branches etc etc. you could easily design a 10gal more optimally scaped and planted than most people's 20gal tanks.

But hey, if you can do that.... Why not apply the same principles to a larger tank. The difference between a 10 and 20 gal as far as footprint goes isnt much, so why not go a bit bigger?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> You're making an appeal to popularity, not outlining an actual negative impact those space limitations have.


I quickly covered some of the scientifically based reasons, Ed has covered them in more detail above. But a quick list:
1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations 
2) potential for more niches
3) potential for wider thermal gradients 
4) encourages more natural behaviors 

This was included in my original quote, perhaps you didn't read it fully, or I didn't state it clearly enough, but here's the end to the paragraph you quoted from me:



cbreon said:


> But basically, it boils down to the fact that its easier to provide the frogs with an ecosystem that meets their needs in a viv that is 20,30, 40 gallons than it is in a 10 gallon. I'm sure there is a point at which there are diminishing returns from increasing the volume of the viv, but generally bigger is better. A properly designed, larger viv, should provide a variety of temperature/humidity gradients, adequate shelter, a variety of breeding/calling spots, hides, healthy microfauna populations and more...


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Gamble said:


> I'm with Pub on this one.
> 
> This propensity to dismiss 10g tanks as a viable option for a permanent tank is absurd.
> 
> ...


As Ed and I pointed out above, a properly setup, larger viv offers some additional benefits over smaller vivs such as 10gal. Furthermore, I have never said you can't use a 10gal, I am simply encouraging people to use larger vivs to recognize these benefits, thus increasing the chances that the frogs and the hobbyist will have a more successful experience. But base on your "like" of Ed's post, it seems that you now recognize our side to this discussion. 
That's my point here, lets get people to recognize the benefits and encourage the use of bigger vivs.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

frogparty said:


> Most people waste the majority of the space in their vivs. So much open air, such thick backgrounds, unnecessary water features...... A well designed viv has so many different usable levels. Floor, background, mid level branches etc etc. you could easily design a 10gal more optimally scaped and planted than most people's 20gal tanks.
> 
> But hey, if you can do that.... Why not apply the same principles to a larger tank. The difference between a 10 and 20 gal as far as footprint goes isnt much, so why not go a bit bigger?


Agreed, multiple levels, branches, plants on the backgrounds, different types of plants with varying heights and densities all help to obtain the viv designs we're encouraging. This helps to create the micro-climates and support varied microfauna which translate into a better environment for the frogs


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> I quickly covered some of the scientifically based reasons


I don't recall that actually occuring




> Ed has covered them in more detail above. But a quick list:
> 1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations
> 2) potential for more niches
> 3) potential for wider thermal gradients
> 4) encourages more natural behaviors


But that doesn't amount to a ten gallon being a harmful environment, which seemed to be an angle you were taking here. Hence my comments earlier about the important thing being the tank is properly set-up, not merely size.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I think a lot of people view because they bred frogs in a 10g as it was a success...Which if that was the case I could have kept quite a few of my pairs and trios in their 5g holding tanks and called it successful. Which half of my collection we breeding in before moving to their much larger 18x18x24s....I fully believe that when all things compared a larger tank/viv gives you a better chance for long term success...For the reasons Ed stated. As well as just because it was done in the past with a possible measurable amount of success does not mean we cannot evolve as a hobby to trying as a base ideology that larger gives you more advantages and get past the 10g as a viable option.

Has there been frogs that lived out their captive natural lives in a 10g? Don't know, but if there were/are, could it also be possible that they might have lived longer in a larger tank? 

sent from my Galaxy S lll


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Lifespan of a Tinctorius for instance, can be between 10-20 years...

so the question would be who has kept his frogs as long as 10-20 years and can teach us about his long-term experience with keeping poison dart frogs in small enclosures.





ps: can anyone tell me the sizes of a 10 gallon tank?


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

PumilioTurkey said:


> Lifespan of a Tinctorius for instance, can be between 10-20 years...
> 
> so the question would be who has kept his frogs as long as 10-20 years and can teach us about his long-term experience with keeping poison dart frogs in small enclosures.
> 
> ...


who can say it about a larger enclosure? Long term keeping definitely seems to be an issue in this hobby, I'm just not sure it's something that is dependent on tank size. But more the finicky nature of keepers and fad cycles


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

PumilioTurkey said:


> ps: can anyone tell me the sizes of a 10 gallon tank?


Approximately 51 x 30.5 x 28 cm.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

I would like to know why ED has copied and pasted MY USER NAME, SilverLynx to some comments that I NEVER MADE. This is INSANE! I have never posted on this subject. The mods need to REMOVE MY USER NAME attached to Ed's POST!!!

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

SilverLynx said:


> I would like to know why ED has copied and pasted MY USER NAME, SilverLynx to some comments that I NEVER MADE. This is INSANE! I have never posted on this subject. The mods need to REMOVE MY USER NAME attached to Ed's POST!!!
> 
> Thanks,
> Lane, aka, SilverLynx


I am almost sure that was an error/oversight on Ed's end. All quotes used by Ed should be from Gamble's post. I removed your name from those quotes.


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

I have pairs that have been in 10 gals. For 3 years with no issues. Id like to have the room for 18x18x18 exos but its not possible. I dont see the issue with using 10 gal. Tanks as long as you create as much room as possible. I.e. no backgeounds. No waterfalls.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

JP,

Thank you!

Thanks, 
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Gocubs said:


> I have pairs that have been in 10 gals. For 3 years with no issues. Id like to have the room for 18x18x18 exos but its not possible. I dont see the issue with using 10 gal. Tanks as long as you create as much room as possible. I.e. no backgeounds. No waterfalls.


I'll disagree with no backgrounds. There are lots of ways to do backgrounds that aren't all that thick and can actually increase usable surface area (ledges), and they provide more surface area for microfauna to hide/breed in.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> I don't recall that actually occuring


Here is my full post that you only included part of in your initial comment, the last few sentences is where I am stating some of the advantages of a larger viv vs. smaller vivs. 



cbreon said:


> There are quite a few additional reasons why many hobbyists discourage people from keeping frogs in smaller tanks. I really wish I could find some of the previous threads that detail some of those reasons. But basically, it boils down to the fact that its easier to provide the frogs with an ecosystem that meets their needs in a viv that is 20,30, 40 gallons than it is in a 10 gallon. I'm sure there is a point at which there are diminishing returns from increasing the volume of the viv, but generally bigger is better. A properly designed, larger viv, should provide a variety of temperature/humidity gradients, adequate shelter, a variety of breeding/calling spots, hides, healthy microfauna populations and more...


Here is Ed, reiterating my points:



Ed said:


> I'm going to disagree here... If both enclosures are properly set-up, then a larger enclosure is going to be better for a number of reasons. In no particular order,
> 1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations
> 2) potential for more niches
> 3) potential for wider thermal gradients
> 4) encourages more natural behaviors





Splash&Dash said:


> But that doesn't amount to a ten gallon being a harmful environment, which seemed to be an angle you were taking here. Hence my comments earlier about the important thing being the tank is properly set-up, not merely size.


I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I'm not saying your frogs will die in a properly designed 10gal viv. I'm simply saying that a 10 gal is less than ideal. This discussion was started in a classified add and moved here to prevent derailing the thread. The original poster was discussing setting up a breeding pair of pumilio in a 10 gal viv. I started by discouraging people from using 10 gal vivs for pumilio pairs. This is based on many years of successfully breeding many pumilio. This opinion is shared by many of the most successful obligate breeders in the hobby today and is the product of their many years of experiences. I would also discourage people from using 10 gallon vivs for permanently housing groups of larger frogs.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. I'm not saying your frogs will die in a properly designed 10gal viv. I'm simply saying that a 10 gal is less than ideal. This discussion was started in a classified add and moved here to prevent derailing the thread. The original poster was discussing setting up a breeding pair of pumilio in a 10 gal viv. I started by discouraging people from using 10 gal vivs for pumilio pairs. This is based on many years of successfully breeding many pumilio. This opinion is shared by many of the most successful obligate breeders in the hobby today and is the product of their many years of experiences. I would also discourage people from using 10 gallon vivs for permanently housing groups of larger frogs.


I'm not even sure 'less than ideal" is correct. If you would say "a properly set-up 20 gallon is better than a properly set up 10 gallon", I would agree


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> I'm not even sure 'less than ideal" is correct. If you would say "a properly set-up 20 gallon is better than a properly set up 10 gallon", I would agree


I would say its less then ideal, and thats an opinion shared by many of the most successful obligate breeders currently in the hobby. I would say its basically the consensus among this group. But, this is exactly what I said (4th post on this thread):



cbreon said:


> First, I will say that I looked at your vivs. They are nicely laid out and have good vertical space, and good floor space.
> 
> My point is, these are really less then ideal for breeding frogs, which is generally the point of acquiring a "pair." I have 10g verts that I currently use for grow-outs or temporary homes for frogs while I am finishing/re-doing vivs, and they work fine for that purpose.
> 
> As Ron (CaptainRon) pointed out, many of us have found better success with larger vivs for pumilio pairs. It seems that 20G and even better, a 18x18x24 produces better results.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> I would say its less then ideal, and thats an opinion shared by many of the most successful obligate breeders currently in the hobby.


Was your original OP limited to obligates? 



> I would say its basically the consensus among this group. But, this is exactly what I said (4th post on this thread):


It seemed you started out talking about dendrobatids in general:




cbreon said:


> I looked for previous threads, and I am sure there are some out there, but I wanted to start a discussion about using 10gal aquariums as permanent vivs for frogs.


PS it's also worth noting not all keepers have an interest in breeding. For me, I pull and cull any eggs. So while I have no personal experience with obligates, I assume the preference is based around the need for a healthy microfauna population?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> Was your original OP limited to obligates?
> 
> It seemed you started out talking about dendrobatids in general.


Splash, please take the time to read my answers, many of the questions you asked were answered a few posts before. 

Here is my explanation, in direct response to your questions, a few posts above:



cbreon said:


> This discussion was started in a classified add and moved here to prevent derailing the thread. The original poster was discussing setting up a breeding pair of pumilio in a 10 gal viv. I started by discouraging people from using 10 gal vivs for pumilio pairs. This is based on many years of successfully breeding many pumilio. This opinion is shared by many of the most successful obligate breeders in the hobby today and is the product of their many years of experiences. I would also discourage people from using 10 gallon vivs for permanently housing groups of larger frogs.





Splash&Dash said:


> PS it's also worth noting not all keepers have an interest in breeding. For me, I pull and cull any eggs. So while I have no personal experience with obligates, I assume the preference is based around the need for a healthy microfauna population?


Splash, I really don't want to keep restating whats already been said (in several instances, in direct response to your questions) but: 



cbreon said:


> A properly designed, larger viv, should provide a variety of temperature/humidity gradients, adequate shelter, a variety of breeding/calling spots, hides, healthy microfauna populations and more...


Ed listed also listed these benefits:

1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations 
2) potential for more niches
3) potential for wider thermal gradients 
4) encourages more natural behaviors

These benefits are not just experienced by breeding pairs and groups...


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

cbreon said:


> As Ed and I pointed out above, a properly setup, larger viv offers some additional benefits over smaller vivs such as 10gal. Furthermore, I have never said you can't use a 10gal, I am simply encouraging people to use larger vivs to recognize these benefits, thus increasing the chances that the frogs and the hobbyist will have a more successful experience. But base on your "like" of Ed's post, it seems that you now recognize our side to this discussion.
> That's my point here, lets get people to recognize the benefits and encourage the use of bigger vivs.


I do not disagree with any of you. As stated, I too think people should use bigger tanks.
I just don't think that someone who does use a 10g tank should be lynched & hung. 
(Not saying anyone has that mentality but I've seen it happen).

I should also state that my opinion was based on the key being properly setup 10 vs improper large ... i should ve clarified that.
naturally, a bigger tank is absolutely better compared to a 10.

I'm just playing devils advocate here.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Gamble said:


> I do not disagree with any of you. As stated, I too think people should use bigger tanks.


I'm glad to hear it. This is the message we should be encouraging as a hobby.



Gamble said:


> I just don't think that someone who does use a 10g tank should be lynched & hung.
> (Not saying anyone has that mentality but I've seen it happen).



"Lynching" people for their opinions is not going to help the hobby move forward, or encourage hobbyists to come here and discuss. But as the debate has evolved here, I think most of us agree, we should be trying to use tanks that are bigger than 10g for permanent setups for groups and pairs. 



Gamble said:


> I should also state that my opinion was based on the key being properly setup 10 vs improper large ... i should ve clarified that.
> naturally, a bigger tank is absolutely better compared to a 10.


Yes, I assumed we were talking about properly setup vivs. Improper setup and conditions are inherently troublesome or "improper" regardless of the size.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

People are going to try and cut corners wherever they can. We see it all the time. Buying tads, looking for the cheapest frogs from whoever, not culturing ff's, using expired supplements, whatever the case may be. Keeping frogs in a 10 gallon tank is no different. 
There has to be a higher standard of husbandry.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> Splash, please take the time to read my answers, many of the questions you asked were answered a few posts before.


I did read your post. I'm just pointing out despite you now claiming such as the subject matter of this thread, your OP was not limited to obligates 



> Ed listed also listed these benefits:
> 
> 1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations
> 2) potential for more niches
> ...


No one is disagreeing to the benefits of a larger enclosure. Just like no one would disagree 4 wheel drive has benefits. It just isn't required, nor is a car "less than ideal" without it". Now, if you're saying that 4 wheel drive is essential to certain applications I wouldn't disagree, but I don't have much experience with obligates


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> People are going to try and cut corners wherever they can. We see it all the time. Buying tads, looking for the cheapest frogs from whoever, not culturing ff's, using expired supplements, whatever the case may be. Keeping frogs in a 10 gallon tank is no different.
> There has to be a higher standard of husbandry.


Thankfully Jon, there are quite a few that "get it" and some that obviously never will, no matter how many times we explain it, no matter how many different ways. It seems that this thread has helped a few understand based on the comments and responses. That was my goal.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> People are going to try and cut corners wherever they can. We see it all the time. Buying tads, looking for the cheapest frogs from whoever, not culturing ff's, using expired supplements, whatever the case may be. Keeping frogs in a 10 gallon tank is no different.
> There has to be a higher standard of husbandry.


Not culturing FFs & using expired supplements I get & totally agree ... 

But please explain how someone wanting to buy tadpoles or buying "cheaper" frogs is an indication of lower standards? 
(Or "cutting corners") ... or am I misunderstanding your point & you mean cutting corners as in saving money?


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

IMO it also comes together with the "animal hoarding syndrome"....

I have seen quite some people who would try to minimize tank size in order to maximize the variety and number of kept frogs...

more like Pokemon or a mathematical equation of how can I maximize number of animals vs space.





wether a bigger tank than 10 gal is required or not brings me back to my first post in this thread: frogs (like any other animal) have an survival and mating instinct. these instincts will go on as long as the most basic needs are provided....

so you could also keep them in plastic boxes (like done with snakes) and still have "success" and breed them. and they'd probably live long enough to "satisfy" their keepers..


but still we're talking about animals that can live up to 20 years.


so I don't really understand why people are defending 10gal tanks - they might work out as temporary tanks and even keep their inhabitants alive! but you'll miss a lot of behavior and fun with your frogs if you cram them into tiny spaces....


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Here we are having a discussion on why not to use 10 gal tanks, while there is this thread which is a good example of why not to use 10 gal tanks.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/135970-lost-all-my-frogs-help.html


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Here we are having a discussion on why not to use 10 gal tanks, while there is this thread which is a good example of why not to use 10 gal tanks.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/135970-lost-all-my-frogs-help.html


Those frogs would be dead if it was 100 gallon tank. ..


Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Here we are having a discussion on why not to use 10 gal tanks, while there is this thread which is a good example of why not to use 10 gal tanks.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/135970-lost-all-my-frogs-help.html


lol, if you think the issue there was the ten gallon I got a bridge to sell you.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> I did read your post. I'm just pointing out despite you now claiming such as the subject matter of this thread, your OP was not limited to obligates
> 
> 
> 
> No one is disagreeing to the benefits of a larger enclosure. Just like no one would disagree 4 wheel drive has benefits. It just isn't required, nor is a car "less than ideal" without it". Now, if you're saying that 4 wheel drive is essential to certain applications I wouldn't disagree, but I don't have much experience with obligates


Splash, you clearly don't have experience with much including reading comprehension. Don't worry, if you stick with it long enough, I'm sure you'll get it.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

pumilioturkey said:


> so i don't really understand why people are defending 10gal tanks - they might work out as temporary tanks and even keep their inhabitants alive! But you'll miss a lot of behavior and fun with your frogs if you cram them into tiny spaces....


 bingo!!!!!


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> Splash, you clearly don't have experience with much including reading comprehension. Don't worry, if you stick with it long enough, I'm sure you'll get it.


Cbreon, unfortunately I directly quoted your op and how it speaks to the general issue of keeping darts, not obligates. But I'm one of those people that is perfectly fine with disagreement and wish you nothing but luck

take care


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> Cbreon, unfortunately I directly quoted your op and how it speaks to the general issue of keeping darts, not obligates. But I'm one of those people that are perfectly fine with disagreement and wish you nothing but luck


Me too, but it becomes slightly annoying when I have to repeatedly quote myself earlier in a thread like I'm speaking to a child. You have seemingly been intentionally obtuse throughout this post during your campaign to desperately support what most of us know to be "less then ideal." 

One more time splash, I clearly explained where this was all coming from in the 4th post of this thread. You chose to conveniently ignore those posts so you could make your point about small tanks. The veteran, successful folks in the hobby no longer advocate use 10 gal vivs to permenantly house breeding groups. But for some reason you have felt the need to pick a fight with me. You are wrong. You're mentality is clearly outdated and now it's permenantly available for all to see.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> Me too, but it becomes slightly annoying when I have to repeatedly quote myself earlier in a thread like I'm speaking to a child. You have seemingly been intentionally obtuse throughout this post during your campaign to desperately support what most of us know to be "less then ideal."
> 
> One more time splash, I clearly explained where this was all coming from in the 4th post of this thread. You chose to conveniently ignore those posts so you could make your point about small tanks. The veteran, successful folks in the hobby no longer advocate use 10 gal vivs to permenantly house breeding groups. But for some reason you have felt the need to pick a fight with me. You are wrong. You're mentality is clearly outdated and now it's permenantly available for all to see.


1) Pick a fight with you? I think you might just be overly sensitive, mate

2) Doesn't 'the Woodsman" (I think Richard from Long Island) still use ten gallons?

3) I don't even keep any frogs in ten gallons. I just disagree with your reasoning

4) "now it's permenantly available for all to see." 

Though it will be difficult, I'm sure I'll manage to survive


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

joshbaker14t said:


> Those frogs would be dead if it was 100 gallon tank. ..


Sadly, that is likely the truth. I really feel bad for that guy, but through research MUST be done before making any purchase. I wonder who he got the frogs from… Why did he not warn him of mixing morphs?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Just because you can.....

You can successfully keep a thumbnail pair in perpetuity in a 2 gallon container provided you change out the substrate etc etc. they'll likely breed if they have film cans etc. 

Should you do it!? Nope. It can be done

Lets get to the core of the argument here. Are the people using 10 gallons doing it just to cram more frog tanks in a rack? To save $? These are answers that can be easily understood and many people use 10s for just such a reason. 

Do you think anyone HONESTLY thinks its the best choice? Doubtful. 

Maybe we should expand the argument out. If you can afford 18" of space, can you really not afford 24"? Wouldn't a 24 be better than 18? Assimg both are set up ideally. 

Lets quit beating the dead horse. Of course 10s work- they've been proven over and over and over again to work.
If you just want to have some frogs in a tank and get a bunch of eggs... Fine

If you want to try to better recreate a slice of rainforest and encourage more natural behavior then a 10 is not what you want


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Splash&Dash said:


> 1) Pick a fight with you? I think you might just be overly sensitive, mate
> 
> 2) Doesn't 'the Woodsman" (I think Richard from Long Island) still use ten gallons?
> 
> ...


Here is my "reasoning" (as stated in the 4th post of this thread):

"A properly designed, larger viv, should provide a variety of temperature/humidity gradients, adequate shelter, a variety of breeding/calling spots, hides, healthy microfauna populations and more"

Do you disagree with the benefits of my "reasoning"?

Ed later stated, or reiterated my points here:

1) better potential to sustain microfaunal populations 
2) potential for more niches
3) potential for wider thermal gradients 
4) encourages more natural behaviors 

Yet you didn't disagree with any of those, do you see why I might start to think you have some bone to pick with me?

I'm not overly sensitive, had I been, I would have mentioned it three pages earlier, before I had to go back and quote myself multiple times in an effort to get you to read my responses. But alas, mate, as the saying goes here in the States, you can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

frogparty said:


> Just because you can.....
> 
> You can successfully keep a thumbnail pair in perpetuity in a 2 gallon container provided you change out the substrate etc etc. they'll likely breed if they have film cans etc.
> 
> ...


You've restored my faith in humanity, haha


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

cbreon said:


> Yet you didn't disagree with any of those, do you see why I might start to think you have some bone to pick with me?


Maybe you overstated your original case and just need to develop some thicker skin?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Just to clarify my own position...

I'm not going to crucify anyone for using 10's as long as they don't over populate the tank, it's made decently and they know what they are doing in general.

Do I favor larger tanks? Yes... for all the reasons pretty much everyone has stated. 

I think the point the Anti 10 people are trying to make, since it seems most concede that they do work ok, is that we should encourage people towards larger tanks that often offer more margin for error, especially with noobs and to me that is sound advice. 

So do we have a few people on the extreme of both ends? Maybe, but I think 90+% us can at least agree bigger is in general better, all other things being equal. So can we wrap it up now and move on to the next thread


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Here we are having a discussion on why not to use 10 gal tanks, while there is this thread which is a good example of why not to use 10 gal tanks.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/135970-lost-all-my-frogs-help.html


 I can't really let this comment go. As already pointed out by others .. there were a lot of possible issues for the loss of that guys frogs. I would totally recommend a 10 gallon tank to a beginner who wanted 3 auratus froglets. Set up nicely or even bare bones basic the little guys should do just fine.

Would they do better in bigger ? Guess what - I do not think so. If we are talking froglets and juvis, especially someone's first frogs, a simple 10 is great until the keeper gets used to eating patterns, pooping patterns, where the frogs sleep, where they like to hang in the am, or and can find them when they panic after not seeing them for 24 hours. They can spend the money they do not spend on a big tank on proper supplements, leaf litter, a good temp gun etc.

Then after a few months, sure move them on up to a deluxe apartment in the sky or rather a bigger tank if you like. In the meanwhile the frogs have been essentially quarantined and you won't mess up your beautiful "big boy" tank with sick frogs.

So I would say bigger is better ..usually


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

srrrio said:


> I can't really let this comment go. As already pointed out by others .. there were a lot of possible issues for the loss of that guys frogs. I would totally recommend a 10 gallon tank to a beginner who wanted 3 auratus froglets. Set up nicely or even bare bones basic the little guys should do just fine.
> 
> Would they do better in bigger ? Guess what - I do not think so. If we are talking froglets and juvis, especially someone's first frogs, a simple 10 is great until the keeper gets used to eating patterns, pooping patterns, where the frogs sleep, where they like to hang in the am, or and can find them when they panic after not seeing them for 24 hours. They can spend the money they do not spend on a big tank on proper supplements, leaf litter, a good temp gun etc.
> 
> ...



In fact, the very last thing that likely contributed to their death was tank size


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Buying tads, looking for the cheapest frogs from whoever ... There has to be a higher standard ...





Gamble said:


> please explain how someone wanting to buy tadpoles or buying "cheaper" frogs is an indication of lower standards?


I'm still waiting for that explanation.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

There is nothing specifically wrong with wanting the best deal, or the cheapest frogs, but it does force the breeders that take the time to grow out their animals in hopes of offering the best chance of survival, to compete with people that may just be interested in the fastest buck.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Dane said:


> There is nothing specifically wrong with wanting the best deal, or the cheapest frogs, but it does force the breeders that take the time to grow out their animals in hopes of offering the best chance of survival, to compete with people that may just be interested in the fastest buck.


Agreed ... but that's just the nature of business in general whether we like it or not ... it's going to happen.
Especially with the nature of the hobby as it is today ... but that's a conversation for another day or privately.

my focus is the statement that eluded to the inference that buying tadpoles or cheaper frogs makes you less inclined to care about your frogs well being or having lower standards in their care ... which I think we can both agree that it simply isn't the case.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Agreed. Nothing wrong with wanting the best deals

I think it IS WRONG to skimp on housing costs for your frogs just so you can get more frogs


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

frogparty said:


> I think it IS WRONG to skimp on housing costs for your frogs just so you can get more frogs


I think we all can agree on that as well.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

So a clarifying question....preferably for Craig...but was the intent of this thread about obligates only?


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Damn this is so complex,Nick I too agree nowt wrong with wanting a better deal,but are we in this for money,or is it our hobby? I would always pay more and willingly so,for the best stock I could grab, and I'm probably in amongst the low earners here, in blighty.But our frogs are our little joy in life,I struggle with deals on that score. I carry personal baggage from selling cheep stock in a different field,I thought I gave someone a bargain,if that someone whom was driven by money ,unlike me, had of paid more,would she have kept them alive more than 24 hours,honestly I believe she would. Is there a value inherent in price ,that a new keeper,would value them more, and hence care for them better? Money is god to many,it's important to all,so I struggle here. For me to make money with my frogs the simple and easiest way is to churn out little tiny things and sell those,or tads it matters not.Sod it I care not for these practices. Little things grow here and get big and strong,hhmmm they go away and seem to thrive,I'm cool with that.They are definately not the cheepest here,but the little extra I ask,doesn't equate to work done in rearing,ha ha froglets,it's not like are a chore, is it. Don't tell anyone I'm/WE are getting the good deal methinks. As above I have baggage , that effects my choices,but are good deals on livestock what we aspire to? 


Anyway to the matter in hand

Craig ,great thread thankyou. I'm a simply guy,this is a simple best practice thread:how can we do better for our frogs,not bare essentials that will suffice.All you folks have outlined fantastic reasons,for larger tanks,so something left field to ponder,just a meander

Hey ho more baggage,for alot of my working life I reared birds poultry amongst others,somewhere around 250 rare breeds of free range chucks, so I have some understanding regarding the difference betwixt free range poultry and battery hens ,what tiny cages do to birds is astounding, so that's my baggage regarding smll cages. But we are talking darts,nothing is so obvious here,but my past haunts me with my frogs .

I guess like most new guys I suffer/ed from the pokemon effect,We set out to keep a good few frogs of various morphs,can't help it,so many are fascinating plus I needed something for my lass,she's a busy sole ,but not blessed with good health,so we went for it.Maybe I should qualify that ,with I have slightly more sophisticated views now, and no I didn't get them all at once,but it matters not. I built racks that had preconceived sizes for vivs. In my infancy(still there actually) of dart keeping hampered by (baggage) wanting to give each pair/group enough space, I schemed and built.

As time passes I'm pondering did I get it right. Are they really big enough. Most of our vivs are 50cm x50cm x 40cm high some 60cm high. another rack has 60cm cubes and a couple of 60sq base,40high(sorry chaps they made us go metric b*st*rds !! )

We're 2 1/2 years in now,what is really making me ponder my short comings is my failure so far to rear dendros in those smaller vivs. I would mention we are seemingly successful in our larger 2'base tanks. Oh sure we can pull and rear,no worries, but what all this is leading to is this. Is the parameter for a non( optional) obligate viv size: the abiltiy to tank rear,froglets? Yeah I can tank rear a pum,although so far once again at this very early stage pulling them is working out better for me,mind I must stress early days here, with only a dozen or so ootw,in our first year with one loss.

But if we lay aside a well thought out viv design if we lay aside wasted unusable space which is applicable to any size viv,is the crux of it ,the ability to rear a froglet in a viv,is this the factor we as a hobby should aspire to, when we choose a suitable size enclosure for a dart? Some might think this irrelevent,but think about it,if one can't rear a froglet ,with it's parents,why is this so. Is the viv so stretched a tiny tiny thing can't make it,hell surely there must be enough spare space/food in a minimum size enclosure for a froglet to make its way in life?

Hmm it's been mentioned here already one needs small rearing containers so tiny morphlings can find enough food,I really don't think this is true. give them space at least the tinc clade anyway, put enough grub in there and watch 'em thrive,I just can't confine those little tiny dendros to a small space. My /OUR very first froglet was an auartus in it's first week we stood with our mouths open after watching it jump,fitness might also be one of our hardest to achieve parameters with captive darts, in small enclosures, that little froglet opened our eyes,try it and see, don't stock them too dense.

Pokemon,hmm I've always liked Amegra,very very early on I stared long and hard then with some sadness said to myself ,no mate you can't,look at those legs. From the off I wished for a bigger room,nah not more vivs,but bigger ones. I've made it now,but two years or so in,I just want to build 2' cubes

We each must make our own choices as to how we keep our frogs,where our ethics lie, i'm sure one can keep frogs in tiny boxes,I know very little yet give us more time and we'll know a tiny bit more,but ask me about a small viv,and I'll do everything possible,in my power to steer you away from it,it's not really baggage now I just look at little frogs and ponder,they teach one alot,if one looks hard enough and long enough


Ramble over,thanks Craig I really appreciate this one. Next time i'm fighting to keep a frog out of a new froggers ruddy nono cube or what ever that tiny thing is they make ,which I personally want to jump on,I have more amunition now than I have ever had,cheers Ed for the science take too!!

take care

Stu


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

mydumname said:


> So a clarifying question....preferably for Craig...but was the intent of this thread about obligates only?


Hey Greg, yes, this discussion started in a wanted add where someone was searching for a pumilio pair for his newly setup 10 gal, I think it was actually a 12x12x18, and I was discouraging him from using a tank that size for breeding pumilio. I started this thread to avoid derailing his wanted add.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Ohh ok.... Lot of references to non obligates being brought up then.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

mydumname said:


> Ohh ok.... Lot of references to non obligates being brought up then.


It seems that most agree that 10 gallon tanks, and tanks of that size, are really best suited for grow outs and not permanent homes for adult groups or breeding pairs for PDF's. There may be a few exceptions such as the smallest thumbs, but that tank size is more of the bare minimum rather than the ideal space. Furthermore, a properly setup larger tank is going to be more forgiving to the newer hobbyists, and be more likely to maintain thriving microfauna populations, which as you know, helps to improve the overall health of the ecosystem. Most of us are aware that you can breed larger terrestrial frogs and obligates in 10 gal tanks, but I was merely trying to encourage people to go above and beyond the bare minimum and to recognize some of the benefits of doing so.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Agreed. Nothing wrong with wanting the best deals
> 
> I think it IS WRONG to skimp on housing costs for your frogs just so you can get more frogs


I look at it as a value judgement and largely relative on the keeper, their space restrictions, and design. But compared to most exotic pet hobbies, the size and space advantages of a ten gallon as a min is a world of improvement. 

For instance, if there was some guy breeding frogs with a 100 10 gallon tanks, I would tend to think he's kinda a dick. If it was some collage student with three ten gallons in his studio apt, then not so much. But in either case I doubt i would make an issue out of it


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