# Insanity.



## a hill

Well, as time passed I've been busy and not here as much as I wanted and kinda said my Wall hanging tank build was scrapped.

It was. 

This is what is replacing it, my friend has started calling it insanity, and I decided that's an appropriate name for the vivarium. 

Here are the specifications:

Acrylic boxes: The total setup will be ten feet long, two feet deep, and six feet tall. It is going to be subdivided into five cells that are two by two by six. The base will have a one foot tall inset pane to take care of holding water and substrate in place. The main front panel will be five feet six inches by two feet. There will be another pane at the top which is six inches. These are show tanks clearly. They also will be drilled for bulkheads and other fun stuff. 

A somewhat still accurate sketch. 










Lighting: I will have full sun/indirect sun depending on the season from a glass patio door on the south wall. To supplement this I also have Kessil tuna blues and kessil tuna suns. They are controlled by the controlled made by kessil. 

Water: A 90gpd RODI filter will keep a constant supply of extremely pure water available for the MistKing unit. Also an ultrasonic fog unit will likely be figured out. Solenoids will take care of regulating certain things associated with it like pumps for water features. The units will be on a constant bleed and feed system so no nutrient buildup occurs in the water features nor does mineral buildup. 

Air: I've decided that my condo being in AZ is just too dry so I am doing forced air that will be controlled by an external box that will filter it and whatnot. Interior of the vivariums will have ductwork and specifically positioned vents similar to power heads in a reef tank. 

Background: This will be open cell foam with a metal frame supporting it. It is important to note the total area will be approximately fifty square feet if I keep it flat. Drip wall and small subtle waterfalls will exist. Along with manzanita and driftwood.

Substrate: Approximate total volume will be fifteen to twenty cubic feet including a stainless steel false bottom. It will be a stratified mix containing clay, peat, bark mulch, organic compost, aragonite sand, liverock (dead now) and topped off with fiddle leaf fig leaf litter.

Microfauna: the soil depth I'll go into detail when I show photos making it, it will contain lots of things like springtails, millipedes, worms, Isopods, and maybe some other fun stuff uncluding fungus aka mushroom. 

Fauna: dart frogs, day geckos, tree pythons, chameleons, and finches will all live in the different vivs at stages along the way. Small stuff won't be very visible for a few years so finches and day geckos and maybe a chameleon or two (also pigmy ones) will keep things interesting. Still doin all that fun research

All associated furniture and woodworking is hand done by me, primarily with dowel and biscuit joints. 

I've decided a few things since the last thread after talking to people:

1. I will not discuss costs, this is not about money. I'm actually using unexpected money I inherited due to a family member passing away unexpectedly early (40 years old) while I do not want any sympathy, I'm not some rich trust fund idiot, I've been in these industries for approximately ten years. I've been planning to do some type of personal installation to relax me when I'm home that is this large since I started.

2. No, you can't come live in it and come over. This is my personal residence not my business place. It is where I hide from the world and relax. 

2.5 Yes I do have a business Rumford Aquatics. I. Will be releasing new products associated with this insane project that I create. These things I'm making for me specifically and then sharing. Same with bug cultures and things. It isn't to make oodles and oodles of cash. 

3. There will be things you will disagree with that I will be doing and other things that you will think are completely unnecessary. Constructive intelligent feedback is awesome and encouraged but superiority complexes will be ignored. 

4. Yes, I'm super excited. 

5. YES! I want your trimmings!!!!!! 

6. This isn't a for profit venture, it's stewardship. 

Alrighty, sorry to end this with the last few lines by I wanted to get that out of the way beforehand. 

That crazy dude,
-Andrew





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## a hill

Oh, and with this type of project the support system is essential. I'm installing Insanity at the same time I'm renovating my house (by hand) so progress may take an interesting timeframe. 


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## irishanaconda

Should be fun to see the progress. I thought my 100g exo was a pain in the arse lol. If i had to do it over though i would just have a nice clean setup of some 40 gal that were turned up for arboreal (thumbs) or flat for terrestrial. I have 11 dart tanks in my house and my ocd messes with me cause there all different size tanks lol. Are u going to be feeding the GTP the finches?


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## a hill

Maybe. The finches primarily will be the rare ones, but I won't have the pythons for at least a year, I may set one up for them with zebra or spice or society finches. 


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## a hill

Tanks have been purchased and will arrive within the next month. 

Time to get ready. 

I still need to get the misting system and fogged worked out, so if anyone has suggestions as to which combination of mister heads I should get, please let me know. 


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## a hill

The tanks should be arriving this week. 

Once I get them I'll be figuring out the misting and possible pumps for water features. With 6 feet it's going to be a lot of head so I'm worried about the pumps but we shall see what happens. 

Can anyone recommend what to do as far as the mist king setup?

Also, what does everyone like for computer fan brands? I think I'll have a few per tank. 

Lastly, I'm putting together my plant list so if people have recommendations or anything I'm all ears. I should be able to get almost anything. 


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## a hill

The end of January has brought gifts!


























































So the boxes are here. Now I'm waiting to put them on the tables and fill it up. 

-Andrew


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## a hill

For size reference, that is a 10g vertical. 

The tanks will be placed atop shortly. 

-Andrew













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## a hill

Kessil going on to see how that looks. 










Pretty blue I'd say. 

Later this week we shall delve into substrate, air, water, lighting, and other miscellaneous issues. 

Foam will be bought, mistaking will be ordered, bulkheads will be purchased. I also need to have someone recommend me a fan type, I need about 6 per tank, and they all need to be able to be controlled independently. 

Lastly, the ten gallon size reference. 










-Andrew


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## dendrorani

Very nice size tanks....Can't wait to see how you set them up with wood and plants...

What will you be using as lighting? Guessing LED to get a nice deep penetration all the way to the bottom?

Following...


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## dendrorani

Forgot to mention... lots of froggers here use soda cans for size reference... not many of us use friends or family... LOL 

Cheers....

BTW a single branch going through all tanks as a continuity would be epic... life size replica...

Rani


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## dmartin72

Wow, you weren't kidding..."Insanity." This is gonna be fun to watch you put together.


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## a hill

dendrorani said:


> Very nice size tanks....Can't wait to see how you set them up with wood and plants...
> 
> 
> 
> What will you be using as lighting? Guessing LED to get a nice deep penetration all the way to the bottom?
> 
> 
> 
> Following...


Yeah should be fun. It'll be all bromeliads and shingles and pothos and stuff. Really simple. Ferns too. 

If you see the initial post in it there is a section about lighting with a little more detail, it'll be remote controlled kessil tuna blues and full direct/indirect sunlight from a south facing window. Nice and deep. 





dendrorani said:


> Forgot to mention... lots of froggers here use soda cans for size reference... not many of us use friends or family... LOL
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers....
> 
> 
> 
> BTW a single branch going through all tanks as a continuity would be epic... life size replica...
> 
> 
> 
> Rani



I don't have any soda cans  I decided it's easier to just step in it. I'm 5' 11" these are six feet. 

I'm debating doing it as if it is just a huge branch all the way though, that has fallen. This way it won't be a big flat wall. That said, I might just do funky modern geometric shapes.

I once read that a novice tries to replicate nature, the intermediate student has understanding of replication, and the master reimagines and transcends nature. 

I may be bold and mix cubism with nature, or I may keep things simple, I'm unsure. While I have space to play, they all will be presented to the viewer together as one, and it is viewable from the front and sides. I might even put a window in from my bedroom, but that is extremely unlikely. 


Now can someone please tell me what to order from mistking.com?

-Andrew




dmartin72 said:


> Wow, you weren't kidding..."Insanity." This is gonna be fun to watch you put together.



Haha, if you can think of a better word let me know . 


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## a hill

This is a bit of a cross post from my other thread discussing foam, but I just placed an order for a few things for the background. 










The memory foam is for a dog bed or two or three and some pillows. The pyramid foam hopefully is the background foam and the roll foam will cover the background frame. The regular charcoal foam will be to fill in gaps and whatever else I feel like, possibly making some logs and things. 

-Andrew


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## a hill

So tank one stocking is now complete and will be the only tank with anything in it other than plants and micro fauna for some time. Pitchforks are encouraged to be left in the hay barn. 

1.1 phelsuma klemmeri 
Many imitator veraderos
Many cobalt tincs. 

I presume there shall be enough space for all parties, if not, adjustments shall be made. 

-Andrew


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## dendrorani

For the mistking system, I would highly recommend sending Marty from Mistking a drawing of your setup and he will give you exactly what you need for your setup.
If you rather do it yourself, make sure you plan ahead in case you are going to have more tanks than what you currently have.

In my opinion, as a quick guide for your setup, I would go with 
-5 premium double T misting heads ( one for each tank )
-one zip drip valve because with that height, you will have too much substrate moving with droplets falling 6 feet down.
-a seconds timer
-a standard pump to have enough flow to the misting heads (The starter will do but will leave you no room to upgrade to more tanks.
-a reservoir and it's bulkhead
-tubing ( get 1.5x what you need, always nicer to be able to finish the project )
-lastly, you need to calculate how many elbows and Ts you need. (This is where Marty comes in handy)
-as a last recommendation, I would have an RO/DI producing water for your system. Reason is, regular water will over time clog your misting heads with sediments and it is very difficult to bring them back to life...

In any case, hope someone else could chime in on this and give you their thoughts....

Rani


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## a hill

Rani, I really need to just reach out to Marty. 

That said, please scroll to the very top and read through that post. It'll make things simpler for you.  I have a 90gpd RODI unit 

I'll be purchasing the top of the line pump they have for sure, just unsure of the elbows and misting heads and everything. That's where I hope I can get opinions because I assume there are many ways to mist a tank this large. 

-Andrew


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## a hill

Moss has been ordered. Foam has been ordered. Red bull consumed. Coco fiber bricks have been purchased. Mulch has been purchased. Three 32 gallon brute trash cans for prefixing the substrate have been purchased. A pitchfork has been purchased. A small shovel has been purchased. Dinner needs to be purchased ASAP. 

Some photos. Oh and I decided to put a small water feature in the vivs on the left side. Tomorrow will be lots more PVC for drains and everything. By this one tomorrow I want all the major plumbing apart from the mistking completed. 



















































Next step? Beverage and food to be consumed. Then playing with dirt and pvc. 
-Andrew


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## CrucialCrew_Justin

Wow... This is going to be awesome!!!


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## a hill

CrucialCrew_Justin said:


> Wow... This is going to be awesome!!!



I sure hope so, this will be the culmination of ten years or so of research and planning things. Exact details as to the instal were unknown obviously but the details of the substrate and construction and husbandry and plants and everything else has been a very very long journey. 



















Fun photo from tonight, two of the kessil Blues on. They're at five percent power moonlight there. During the day they will be fighting with direct and indirect Arizona sunshine though, so they'll be put through their paces. 

Like the substrate? I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to make the false bottom. I don't want to mess with egg crate if I can avoid it so I'm going to try and get an aluminum one made for each tank. They'll be two pieces (front and back) and then covered with metal mesh and lots of substrate. 

For the water features I've decided to keep it simple and have the front have about four inches of water or so and the transition areas will have Malaysian driftwood to keep it visually appealing. 

Each tank will be plumbed for a water feature on the left side. Under the left side of the tank will be a five gallon bucket with two holes for tubing And some disconnect valves. Inside the bucket will be mechanical and chemical media for the water that one hose will bring in. On the bottom a pump will be attached to some hose that will bring the cleaned water up. It will be connected to a pvc pipe with a valve at the bottom. The top will have an elbow and water will enter the tank from the top left hole (well actually the lower of the two top holes). From here a bulkhead will bring the water inside the tank. After that I can change where it goes when I build the tanks. (Very general and simple explanation right now. I'll have detailed photos of the actual plumbing later on today. 

Todays task is plumbing. It might take more than one day to finish. I'm also going to put the boring plant order in with the nursery. General vines and ferns and bromeliads to fill the background up right away and let it grow in. If anyone has plant suggestions and can provide botanical names I'd appreciate it. 

Also any dream plants or plants you want and can't find send my way, my nursery has a wide array of suppliers nationally so I might be able to find some. They can always check and then try in the future till they get it. 

And to think I was just going to post a silly blue and pink photo and little reply. 

-Andrew


All written words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

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## ROBNOB9X

Hey mate, loving this build!

Can't imagine how much planning has gone into it!!

Are you going to make it look as though it's one huge viv or do each one slightly different?


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## a hill

ROBNOB9X said:


> Hey mate, loving this build!
> 
> 
> 
> Can't imagine how much planning has gone into it!!
> 
> 
> 
> Are you going to make it look as though it's one huge viv or do each one slightly different?



Well, look at this account's registration date, then if you can find my original account I made add those years on (let's say three or so) and then that's the answer! While I really wanted to do an eight or ten for cube, this is similar but longer. I'll get my cube eventually. (And yes I mean cube, inside a room, on a stand likely concrete, complete with a door. 

So this has been years and years of research and patience till I had the money and space in somewhere I was living in and could renovate around the tank. 

While each tank will be slightly different, it will be "scaped" as we say in the planted aquarium world, as one large unit. Yet all units will be separate in all ways from each other. So if one unit crashes (I don't expect it ever too, but I'm an Eagle Scout and that whole be prepared thing means something to me) the other breeding colonies will be safe. I won't give too too much info away as far as what the scape will look like though. 

Another teaser photo. This one teases me as well!









-Andrew

PS. For those that are wondering, I've decided to share specific details on items ordered for this project, but am cropping the price line out. That way it is transparent and people can get the same
Items for themselves if they wish, but the dollar signs of this lifelong dream stay away from this thread. 


All written words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

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## Marty

Nice setup Andrew. Can't wait to see it done. Looks kick ass !


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## a hill

Marty said:


> Nice setup Andrew. Can't wait to see it done. Looks kick ass !



Thanks Marty! I can't wait to play around with the new toys. Initially I'm going to use the solenoid valve before the manifold, but i am also considering getting one solenoid valve for each tank (5 solenoid valves after the manifold) maybe too much redundancy, but could also give a lot of control. 

Also, I may be placing one bulkhead or two for pressurized air, to be able to do fun things with. Including modifying the barometric pressure. To do this I'll also have to have special front panes made that are small enough to insert and seal, backwards from my normal front panes. That said, I won't be doing any of this right away to say the least. 

Baby steps. 


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

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## dendrorani

I Personally think that an eggcrate false bottom is the best possible draining option. Over the years I have tried many methods and this one is by far the best.

What I do, I place a weed cloth on top of the eggcrate not a screen mesh. This will almost not allow any roots to go through....
I have had systems running for 10+ years and they seem to hold best with the eggcrate.
To make things very neat, I always silicone the edges where the weed cloth meets with the tank.
It has been by far the best way to flush out cleaner water and not having the substrate submerged.

Some thoughts...

Rani


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## a hill

dendrorani said:


> I Personally think that an eggcrate false bottom is the best possible draining option. Over the years I have tried many methods and this one is by far the best.
> 
> 
> 
> What I do, I place a weed cloth on top of the eggcrate not a screen mesh. This will almost not allow any roots to go through....
> 
> I have had systems running for 10+ years and they seem to hold best with the eggcrate.
> 
> To make things very neat, I always silicone the edges where the weed cloth meets with the tank.
> 
> It has been by far the best way to flush out cleaner water and not having the substrate submerged.
> 
> 
> 
> Some thoughts...
> 
> 
> 
> Rani



I'm concerned about the insane weight that'll be had. 

What I'll be doing I should've already done. I'm going to have acrylic false bottoms made by the company that built the tanks. 


In other news my bank froze my cards due to a major fraud alert. Some odd spending all the sudden. They have to investigate it and it's frozen for a week. So, yeah, I have a delay about to happen and a few merchants irritated with me to say the least. Especially the moss company. 

-Andrew


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

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## CrucialCrew_Justin

a hill said:


> In other news my bank froze my cards due to a major fraud alert. Some odd spending all the sudden. They have to investigate it and it's frozen for a week. So, yeah, I have a delay about to happen and a few merchants irritated with me to say the least. Especially the moss company.


Ouff, that sucks man (wouldn't happen to be a lot of online shopping at different herpetology and/or plant sites would it?). In all seriousness I'm super excited to see how these tanks all come together. I can't get over how awesome the size of these things are. Also where did you order the moss from? I'm in the market for a few of my tanks. 

Thanks,
-Justin


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## a hill

CrucialCrew_Justin said:


> Ouff, that sucks man (wouldn't happen to be a lot of online shopping at different herpetology and/or plant sites would it?). In all seriousness I'm super excited to see how these tanks all come together. I can't get over how awesome the size of these things are. Also where did you order the moss from? I'm in the market for a few of my tanks.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Justin



Maybe. 

Me either. Patience is a virtue. 

As far as merchants for live goods, I'm not going to be sharing until I can review and decide if I'd recommend places. 

-Andrew


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

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## a hill

Yup. 


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Initial planting will hopefully be in two weeks. The layout will be basically designed on Friday/Saturday, then hopefully all the plumbing will taken care of for misting and draining and whatnot, soon thereafter. 

I just received shipping codes from the foam place, and some others, along with updates on the hardscape materials coming soon. 

Isn't there a bid bromeliad grower in Southern California somewhere? I've got to take a drive for work and might try and stop by. 


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Picked up some new items. It's the last bit I'm trying to figure out. Anyone have opinions on airflow in something this large?


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Marty sent me some toys. 










-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Decided to use egg crate. Super ugly but easy to work with. 














































-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. A


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## dendrorani

Good progression. You won't be sorry for using egg crate...for weight concerns, just put more pipes under it but this thing is pretty damn strong.

I noticed you have started the plumbing. What do you have in mind? Waterfall, river etc. ?

Rani


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## a hill

It's just really ugly. As far as what the water does? I'm not sure, it'll fall some kinda way though. 


-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## dendrorani

a hill said:


> It's just really ugly. As far as what the water does? I'm not sure, it'll fall some kinda way though.
> 
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited.
> 
> Transcribed via Siri.


how can egg crate be ugly if it's suppose to be hidden?... and are you annoyed when asked how you are progressing with your build? I just have that feeling...

Rani

Looking forward to seeing it progress though...


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## a hill

I'm not annoyed at all. 

I just really think that egg-crate is ugly. You're completely right, I'll never see it. It'll be wrapped in foam and covered in dirt and driftwood, but for some reason, I've always found it ugly. 

Motor dremel is charging. Then I shall finish the bases, then begin the backgrounds. Might get most of this done tonight. 












-Andrew

All words above were written by some crazy guy who is too young to live life simply. Any and all information is my recollection and opinion, unless cited. 

Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Oh. And as far as water, I'm completely serious. I'm going to build with pieces of the driftwood making it slowly trickle around the tank. It wasn't meant to be a sarcastic response at all. But it'll be going from piece to piece of wood until the bottom where there will be a pool of water. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## dendrorani

Very cool...oh and btw, how will you be holding the egg crate in place? with polyurethane right?.... because the best way would be to support it with pipings as "posts".

And dont forget to cover the false bottom with some nice tight weed cloth. 

I know that it's very easy to forget about important steps when we're excited to finish the tank...

Some thoughts,

Rani


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## a hill

dendrorani said:


> Very cool...oh and btw, how will you be holding the egg crate in place? with polyurethane right?.... because the best way would be to support it with pipings as "posts".


Will be using pvc and then the bulkhead holes to anchor it I think. 





dendrorani said:


> And dont forget to cover the false bottom with some nice tight weed cloth.


No weed cloth, just some foam! Don't want any ugly looking decomposing weed cloth 😉














dendrorani said:


> I know that it's very easy to forget about important steps when we're excited to finish the tank...
> 
> 
> 
> Some thoughts,
> 
> 
> 
> Rani



It might surprise you to know I'm my excited at all to finish the tank. I have a ton left to complete and I just look at is as that I have more work yet to be done. I'll be excited when my updates only are photos of plants and frogs!! 

Dunno if that makes sense. I'm just ready to finish the park that requires power tools. I want my living room back. I'm beginning to understand why people charge so much to install huge tanks like this. In the future maybe I'll do someone's and enjoy this part more. 

I want the frogs out of plastic bins, a cool drink in my hand, and to complain about not being able to see the frogs.

-Andrew



Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## a hill

Progress. The false bottom is a little high, will reduce it an inch or so. This picture was taken after testing out a bunch of wood so the false bottom isn't on the floor and there are peanuts underneath. 

I'm using the peanuts to visualize substrate depth. I really wanted six inches, and it looks like I'll get it. 

The water in the front will be much smaller than it appears, there will be substrate in this, then between the egg crate there will be foam filling the gap between the wood. Plus it'll be filled with love plants. My lfs has some tiger lotus in stock I almost bought today. 


















My dinner companion. 









And so I go,
-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## spyder 1.0

I've been outdone I see. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...15gal-vertical-tree-vivarium.html#post2215369

I hope you take your time and don't rush it. So much promise here


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## spyder 1.0

You will regret using pink peanuts by the way. Invest in those clay balls

Cheap is cheap.


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## dendrorani

spyder 1.0 said:


> You will regret using pink peanuts by the way. Invest in those clay balls
> 
> Cheap is cheap.


i totally agree... when i build i tend to build for 10 + years...


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## dmartin72

He said he was using them to visualize substrate depth.


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## dendrorani

hmmm, maybe we just looked at the picture and said OMG no not this, without reading obviously... 

Rani


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## a hill

spyder 1.0 said:


> I've been outdone I see.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...15gal-vertical-tree-vivarium.html#post2215369


I've never seen your thread. Neat tank, 





spyder 1.0 said:


> I hope you take your time and don't rush it. So much promise here



Considering the system has been in planning stages from 2000ish and now being finalized and actualized, it's tough to rush lol. Just tons of work. 



dendrorani said:


> i totally agree... when i build i tend to build for 10 + years...



I'm unsure if the system will stay in this location for a decade, but how I'm building the systems they should be able to function for fifty years at least with ony supplemental feeding and trimming as desired. 

I like my pink substrate. Haters gonna hate. 


-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

dendrorani said:


> hmmm, maybe we just looked at the picture and said OMG no not this, without reading obviously...
> 
> 
> 
> Rani



I just love torturing you guys. 

You know I'm using dancing dirt as my substrate, right?

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

-Andrew. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## a hill

Tomorrow I plan to open the foam boxes, place the thin stuff on my floor, and move the tanks on it. 

Then this list will be followed. 
1. Wash tanks
2. Drill fronts for bolts. 
3.Use egg crate to frame the false bottom and background. 
4.Cover eggcrate with thin foam. First the thin, then the pyramid. 
5. Arrange driftwood and drill and zip tie it to eggcrate. 

Then it will be weird. 
Install plumbing
Air ducts.
Sensors-etc
Must king. 

Then they will be put vertical again. The moss mix and substrate will be mixed. Then added. 

Main plants will start coming in next week but the moss will begin establishing right away. 

Goal is to get the tincs and imis in big boxes Monday. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Micro fauna will be seeded as well. 


Mist not must king. 

Purchasing a Neptune controller for electronics and remote management. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

So today I managed to do less than hoped for. 

I installed bulkheads on three tanks. Two more to do before I go to sleep tonight. 

I also mixed substrate. I now have a bathtub full. And have enough to trade to other people for stuff so I'll list it in the trades section. Micro fauna, plants, feeders, supplies, anything you think of might work. 


























Oh, and my current question for everyone following the thread not feeling like they can post. (Please do!)

" Which pumilio has the broadest variety of looks within the morph?" 

I think I might get one that is highly variable. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## Y0urbestfriend

bastimentos has red orange and yellow right?


----------



## FroggyKnight

ab1000434 said:


> bastimentos has red orange and yellow right?


And "gold dust", too. 

If I remember correctly, aguacate and Uyama both have very variable populations. Esperanza does as well I think.

John


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## Y0urbestfriend

I actually think Rio Branco has the most, I just found this picture.
https://www.facebook.com/BluePumili...2997353755816/780310672024481/?type=1&theater


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## a hill

Hmmmmmm. Well one tank will get to become home to the winner of this question!

Just unpacked the foam. It looks pretty good. 

I decided to do the last two tanks' bulkheads tomorrow. Each has nine and they require me on a ladder!

Insane.
-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## Pubfiction

You can use black egg crate if you don't like the white. I have some from a reef meet, as a side effect it is also stronger. The egg crate you get at home depot is very weak. I find IPS Weldon 16 makes it easier to work with egg crate.


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## a hill

Pubfiction said:


> You can use black egg crate if you don't like the white. I have some from a reef meet, as a side effect it is also stronger. The egg crate you get at home depot is very weak. I find IPS Weldon 16 makes it easier to work with egg crate.



Interesting, and yes, it's the thin stuff from Home Depot. I know the stuff you're talking about though. 

Opened up the foam to air it out. It's now spread around the condo exploring. 
















































































































































-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

So basically, I'm building a frame with pvc and eggcrate, then building the background with foam chunks, then wrapping it with the thin foam, finally covering it with the pyramid foam. 

It should be a lot less mess than the great stuff method. The foam will be joined with glue. Oh. And this weighs absolutely nothing, so weight isn't an issue. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## spyder 1.0

I don't understand. How will there be any structural integrity with that foam backdrop?


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## a hill

There will be a support structure its attached to. Egg crate and pvc will be used. 

The foam won't have structural properties as you noticed. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## eos

Subscribed! Nice going so far.


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## a hill

eos said:


> Subscribed! Nice going so far.



Thanks! 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

All bulkheads are screwed in. All false bottom eggcrate cut. Need to cut all the pvc, get adaptors for bulkheads as far as certain pumps and stuff go, and then should be able to place foam and cover it with dw and moss and let that grow


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Ok. I'm kinda stuck. 

I can't decide how to do airflow. Yup of all random things this has kept me from keeping progress. 

I'm back to thinking I'll use airflow like people filter water in a large vivarium.


I also have decided to probably use some greatstuff in the background but I'm not sure yet. 










-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Ok so I've decided on some things. 

Thing one is background construction. 

The top 3/4 will be eggcrate topped with foam, then topped with moss and driftwood. It'll be held in place with the bulkheads mainly. 

The bottom quarter will be greatstuff covered in foam and moss. This will give the above some support and make it not as flat. 

The left bulkheads will be for water. 
The top right will be for food. 
Others will be for air and fog.

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## SanderV

Excited to see the progress! That's a huge build. Best of luck!


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## a hill

SanderV said:


> Excited to see the progress! That's a huge build. Best of luck!



It's nuts. Very overwhelming. 

Progress. 

















Ok well the sinus infection and respiratory infection are sending me back to sleep for a bit. When I wake up I'll be finishing the eggcrate foam driftwood sandwiches. 

-Andrew

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## a hill

So my concept appears to work. Open cell foam and egg crate sandwich. Zip ties and driftwood holding it together. I'll have to pull this and cut openings for the bulkheads and then glue/stitch the foam edges all together, but besides that, it seems to work as I wished it would, which is good!

One almost done, four more to go!

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

So I decided to stop thinking and analyzing, it was time to just do it. 

Do what you may ask? 

Drill holes into the tanks to place the bolts in the acrylic. These bolts will be holding the front door on. Two in the bottom will too. Maybe another two in the middle of a seal is lacking. 

A bit terrifying, but besides getting the bit stuck then giving my hand a friction burn, yes I wasn't thinking. Things were simple. 

The holes are inset 2 by 2 inches. The first hole drilled is just wide enough for the stainless steel machine screw to be screwed in, tightly. The second bit of drilling is to make it so that the bolt can easily slide through the front pane. Aka I made the hole bigger here. 

For right now I'm just using wing nuts and washers. Everything is stainless. Super clean looking. 

In the future I'll be cutting down the length of the bolts. Wasn't sure how long I'd want them. 










-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Seems that my background idea will work. Way too much thought has gone into this. Now to do this four more times. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## jarteta97

Subscribed! Damn, you're certainly ambitious


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## a hill

A very well respected doctor used the word "grandiose" a few years back. He then wrote the numerical code on my sheet for delusions of grandeur. I wasn't allowed to go home that day. 

I really want to invite him over for dinner. 

See if he agrees with you or this is more serious than we think! 

Maybe I'll wait till after his project is completed. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## jarteta97

Hahahaha, oh lord you made me chuckle. I seriously can't wait to see how this shapes up. I've really never seen something like this before, but I'm quite optimistic about it turning out great!


----------



## a hill

It seems to always take much longer than I want. Yesterday I drilled all the driftwood and started the second background. 




























Progress. Hopefully more can occur today. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

Im kinda confused by the sound foam? Why are you doing this?


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## LRobb88

I'mmmmm jealous. I'll be subscribed to this thread. Keep up the good work!


----------



## a hill

Picked up a splicing tool to simplify the poking of zip ties. 




RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> Im kinda confused by the sound foam? Why are you doing this?



The foam is providing increased surface area for microfauna. It will provide a growing medium for plants to root into and hold moisture to keep relative humidity high. It also provides four times the surface area on the background essentially making it four times was large or three times as large if the bottoms are discounted. This allows for more hiding spaces and again areas for plants. 

It's way less mess compared to the closed cell foam normally used. I don't have any silicon or anything to mess with. No sealing needed (comparatively). It also looks really clean in person. 
Lastly, it doesn't ruin the acrylic tank. 

It'll make more sense over time probly. 
-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## JoshsDragonz

So how is the foam attached to the background? You said you didn't have to mess with silicone, so I'm assuming its not attached that way. I'm just wondering how you will keep frogs from getting back behind the foam if its not 100% sealed to the back wall.

I'm interested to see how this comes together and how natural it looks in the end due to the repeating geometric shapes of the foam.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog

a hill said:


> Picked up a splicing tool to simplify the poking of zip ties.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The foam is providing increased surface area for microfauna. It will provide a growing medium for plants to root into and hold moisture to keep relative humidity high. It also provides four times the surface area on the background essentially making it four times was large or three times as large if the bottoms are discounted. This allows for more hiding spaces and again areas for plants.
> 
> It's way less mess compared to the closed cell foam normally used. I don't have any silicon or anything to mess with. No sealing needed (comparatively). It also looks really clean in person.
> Lastly, it doesn't ruin the acrylic tank.
> 
> It'll make more sense over time probly.
> -Andrew
> 
> 
> Smiling when unhappy makes you happier.
> Transcribed via Siri.



I still have so many questions? You bolted the doors on? Regular foams Allow just as much room for plants, You can carve regular foam and make natural looking hiding spaces, not little Pyramids, that you don't find in nature. Who said that this microfauna is gonna hang out on this foam? Truth is, most of the microfauna will be primarily on the ground level. Like Josh said, if your not sealing that foam to the background you better bet Dart frogs will find their way behind it. It may be less of mess Physically when making it, but what Im looking at mentally is a mess IMO, I applaud you for being inventive and trying new things, but I honestly think you've made this build 50x more complicated by doing all these really odd techniques. Also why are you using a bulkhead for food? Cant you just use the front doors? Im just soon confused on the decisions being made on these tanks. If it were me Id lose the strange multiple bulkheads, strange foam that I'm not sure will hold up even being wet all the time, and figure out a better sliding front door system...again just my opinion. Im very interested to see how these turn out and wish you the best.


----------



## a hill

JoshsDragonz said:


> So how is the foam attached to the background? You said you didn't have to mess with silicone, so I'm assuming its not attached that way. I'm just wondering how you will keep frogs from getting back behind the foam if its not 100% sealed to the back wall.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested to see how this comes together and how natural it looks in the end due to the repeating geometric shapes of the foam.



There will be a seal from the foam being pushed onto the back. It'll compress and hold the space so nothing can go in. That's what's great about the open cell foam. Sealed and bonded are two different things. The bulkheads all also aid in helping to keep the eggcrate held against the back. 

It'll be covered in plants over time and it's there to do that best. I'm not sure how natural acrylic boxes in my living room can be. I'm just setting up for the best possible results. 

Until then it's super clean looking. 
-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I still have so many questions?


I'm going to do my best to answer them. This said, I have a feeling some things will not make sense to you until this tank had been running for years. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> IYou bolted the doors on?


Sorta, I am using a combination on stainless steel machine screws, washers, gaskets, and nuts/wing nuts. These ended up making more sense than bolts. Essentially the same thing. As of right now each tank has four that the front panels attach with. 

I may add two to four more as needed. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I Regular foams Allow just as much room for plants,


This is false. I am going to assume by "regular foam" you mean greatstuff or styrofoam or other commonly used foam. The problem is that these are what's called closed cell foams. 

They do not allow for anything to pass through them nor collect in them. This makes it very difficult for a plant's root system to form inside the foam in most people's tanks. 

This foam will keep moisture and nutrients and mold and fungus and sporophytes and all types of things happy and provide a better growing medium for plants commonly grown on the background of these tanks. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> IYou can carve regular foam and make natural looking hiding spaces, not little Pyramids, that you don't find in nature.


This is true, except I have no desire to carve fifty square feet of foam backgrounds. 

I chose the pyramid foam on purpose, it increases surface area by a factor of four, and vertical space twice. Over time the foam will be hidden by lush plant growth. 

The focus is on plant growth, not recreation of nature. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> IWho said that this microfauna is gonna hang out on this foam?


Me. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> ITruth is, most of the microfauna will be primarily on the ground level.


I will be easily able to show this as false in the future. Isopods and springtails don't fear gravity. Nor do fruit flies or fungus gnats or other things. I don't expect many millipedes to be climbing too too much though. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> ILike Josh said, if your not sealing that foam to the background you better bet Dart frogs will find their way behind it.


I'm not saying that it's impossible, I've seen frogs in funky places. As long as they can get in and out of their spots, I'm happy. That said, I'm not concerned about it a whole lot. 




RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> It may be less of mess Physically when making it, but what Im looking at mentally is a mess.


That's interesting. How I'm doing this is a huge amount of planning, yet the mess is minimal. Thankfully, my mind is capable of keeping the pieces continually coming together. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> IMO, I applaud you for being inventive and trying new things, but I honestly think you've made this build 50x more complicated by doing all these really odd techniques.


It depends what the goals are. In this, my goals are all about a clean presentation and this changes how things are valued. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> Also why are you using a bulkhead for food? Cant you just use the front doors?


The front panes are only going to be removed for major maintenance. These are to be hands off enclosures. That said, yes, it is possible to take the front panes off. I designed them to make it cumbersome to do this regularly. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> Im just soon confused on the decisions being made on these tanks. If it were me Id lose the strange multiple bulkheads, strange foam that I'm not sure will hold up even being wet all the time, and figure out a better sliding front door system...again just my opinion. Im very interested to see how these turn out and wish you the best.



In the aquarium world bulkheads are normal. That's where I've lived for a while. They just allow for flexibility. 

The foam will hold up, I've done my homework.

The term door isn't a good term for me to use
And recently I've been saying panes or panels. They aren't meant to constantly be opened and closed. If so, I would've just made French doors for the enclosures but I didn't want the extra lines. I wanted clean front faces. Short of major changes and major monthly maintenance, they'll be kept on. 

I highly encourage you to create a similar wall of tanks and we can compare notes. 

I know a lot of what I'm doing hasn't been done in this way traditionally. That said, this has been researched thoroughly and while noting is perfect, I'm sure you'll be surprised over time. 

Sincerely,
-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

for the Door if you didn't want the extra line, You could have just made one sliding door. A simple one way door track would have achieved that for a clean look, and would have ben easier to remove than bolts.

It is not false....I have have many tanks that plants grow just fine on the background... My Greatstuff is covered with Drylok...not silicone maybe thats the difference. On a different note, it sounds like what you want this foam to do is essentially what Hygrolon does, have you ever heard of hygrolon?? You apply directly over top of the Carved foam, its essentially mesh and works extremely well for plant growth... Ive used it in my latest large 180 gallon build... If you want me to post a picture i can do that for ya. Also have you seen Joshdragonz 450 gallon...he used Greatstuff covered and drylok and his plant growth is honestly insane. Definitely with checking out.

Cant really comment on you not wanting to carve backgrounds and not replicate nature... thats on you.

I look forward to seeing your background exploding with microfauna as well....

I guess the word clean presentation means different things for you and I

I have built over 50 tanks for Dendrobatids in the past 10-15 years for with sizes ranging from 10 gallons to 180 gallons. I recently Built a wall of 8 tanks 2 rows, mind you my wall is 6x6 not 10x6 but its still large Id be glad to share it with you, If you'd like me to post it here I will, but only with your permission. I could also share my 180 with you. My tanks provide excellent plant growth, microfauna growth, a Clean natural presentation, and easy access to the tanks.


----------



## a hill

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> for the Door if you didn't want the extra line, You could have just made one sliding door. A simple one way door track would have achieved that for a clean look, and would have ben easier to remove than bolts.


Maybe. Acrylic warps and easily scratches though. And gaps would allow for inhabitants to escape or swap tanks. 




RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> It is not false....I have have many tanks that plants grow just fine on the background... My Greatstuff is covered with Drylok...not silicone maybe thats the difference. On a different note, it sounds like what you want this foam to do is essentially what Hygrolon does, have you ever heard of hygrolon??
> 
> You apply directly over top of the Carved foam, its essentially mesh and works extremely well for plant growth... Ive used it in my latest large 180 gallon build... If you want me to post a picture i can do that for ya. Also have you seen Joshdragonz 450 gallon...he used Greatstuff covered and drylok and his plant growth is honestly insane. Definitely with checking out.


Are you suggesting that your plants are rooting through your closed cell foam that is covered with drylok? 

I'm well aware what hygrolon is. That will work similarly to the open cell foam. 






RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> Cant really comment on you not wanting to carve backgrounds and not replicate nature... thats on you.


I'm aiming for plant growth to completely cover the background. Most dart frog environments aren't as the vivs of dendroboard look anyways, it's an aesthetic, which is fine, but doesn't mean the frogs require it to be that way. 





RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I look forward to seeing your background exploding with microfauna as well....


We shall have to just wait on the one. 






RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I guess the word clean presentation means different things for you and I



Yes. 






RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I have built over 50 tanks for Dendrobatids in the past 10-15 years for with sizes ranging from 10 gallons to 180 gallons. I recently Built a wall of 8 tanks 2 rows, mind you my wall is 6x6 not 10x6 but its still large Id be glad to share it with you, If you'd like me to post it here I will, but only with your permission. I could also share my 180 with you. My tanks provide excellent plant growth, microfauna growth, a Clean natural presentation, and easy access to the tanks.



I have a feeling I can find your thread if it exists. 

Everyone has different desires and goals when setting something like this up. You and I, would do things differently. While I don't doubt your success, I do doubt that it's the best way. It's hard to see the benefits of doing things differently after setting in on a method that works over many years. 

I think tanks do best when let be, and making it a bit of a hassle to open up is an important design aspect for me that'll discourage me sticking my hands in. That said, it only takes a minute to open them up. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

Yeah think there are pictures in my Redeyetroyfrog frog thread not sure if I have the 8 tank unit up or not I think I do.

yes IM suggesting that plants and vines do grow into my backgrounds, they root and climb

- and what experience do you have that made you learn that tank are best when left be? Like is that just an opinion that has no data attached to it?

Theres no real point to keep going on about this... I think its a horrendously DESIGN idea for a "vivarium" you don't ... thats it... Ill just wait to see the final product, Hopefully you prove me wrong and it looks and is successful 

Good Luck


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## a hill

The hands off mindset is something I've discussed with many people over the years. I'm not saying it's the only way, it's Cleary not. Yet, as long as target feeding isn't required I prefer to take a more hands off approach. I think it causes less stress for the tank inhabitants. 

Traditionally it seems Europeans favor very large custom tanks, where Americans prefer multi tank racks predominantly. This is all from what I've seen over the past decade or so at least. Sadly, I don't have any hard data to review, but I'm certain the number of very large setups for small amphibians and reptiles has increased rapidly in the US. People seem to be getting bored with fish tanks to some degree it seems. 

A few people close to me have said I'm just doing design for design's sake at this point, and I'm inclined to agree, so I'm trying to finish things up. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## Encyclia

I have been lurking in this thread for a while but never posted. I am really intrigued and always enjoy when other people push the envelope so I can sit back and watch to see what works and doesn't  Andrew, this is an extremely brave build and I wish you all the best. The only thing that I can say from experience is that, no matter how much effort I put into getting a background exactly the way I want it, the tank looks completely different when it's grown in. Some of my best backgrounds are nearly invisible now, and that is all for the better since the plants are a much better background than anything I could have made myself  I think that, if all of your research on materials, etc. holds true, you will have saved yourself a ton of work for very similar-looking results. If only we could fast-forward a few months or years and see now what it will look like in the future!

Best of luck to you,

Mark


----------



## Spaff

a hill said:


> This is false. I am going to assume by "regular foam" you mean greatstuff or styrofoam or other commonly used foam. The problem is that these are what's called closed cell foams.
> 
> They do not allow for anything to pass through them nor collect in them. This makes it very difficult for a plant's root system to form inside the foam in most people's tanks.
> 
> This foam will keep moisture and nutrients and mold and fungus and sporophytes and all types of things happy and provide a better growing medium for plants commonly grown on the background of these tanks.


The problem with this theory lies in the type of plants that are used in these vivs. I'd say 75% or greater of the plants commonly used in vivaria in this hobby would be naturally characterized as epiphytic. These species have adapted to make the most of the available nutrients on the surface of an object because they physically cannot enter what they grow on most of the time. Some of these species do not even utilize roots for any purpose greater than stabilizing their growth. Growing on the trunk of a tree or rock cliff face is how they naturally grow, so attaching them to cork or tree fern or foam with an organic media on the surface is one of the best ways to recreate this. Overloading them with water/nutrients that they may or may not use is superfluous at best and may lead to growth issues at its worst. 

Try growing a Cattleya orchid in potting soil. This is the best "real world"example I could come up with to illustrate placing an epiphyte in a media that will store excess moisture and nutrients.


----------



## a hill

Mark, that's exactly as I'm thinking. 

Staff, I think you're over thinking this. Pm me your mailing address and I'll send you a chunk of what I'm working with and you can get a feel for it. 

In nature those crevices and tree bark and branches get pretty funky. It's one reason I dislike rock climbing outside the gym! 

All this said, like any vivarium, plant placement is important depending on substrate requirements. 

Oh and I've decided in the spirit of being open minded I'm going to be doing one with the normal greatstuff foam covered with the open cell foam. 

There was someone who did something with the thick epiweb similar to what I'm doing, and it's the same material overall. 

Until then, this is MUCH simpler!









AZ does have its perks!

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

Decided to drill the top for the mistking misting heads. These tanks are getting heavier and heavier the more I put in them. Being impatient means I end up moving them myself. My back isn't happy with me the next day usually. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

I wanted to get them out of the sweater boxes so I rushed this one. The others will have a few weeks of work till they're ready to be filled up. 

One of the cobalts just climbed to the top of the tank on the acrylic, so much for them not liking height! 




























-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

I'm thinking of not having a space in front for water, because if I do this I can have a simpler setup overall and just drain out from misting. 

This would also give me more room to play with when it comes to substrate. 

Either way I've decided I'm going to have no plants in the substate just leaf litter. 

Frogs are enjoying the space. And it's nice to be able to see then, the opaque steer life containers aren't so fun. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## TheCoon

You may want to consider orienting your bromeliad differently... Really looks unnatural.


----------



## a hill

Oh it's just falling. I quickly wedged it in to transfer the frogs. This Viv I'll be planting for real in a week or so. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

I think this image shows it standing back up. Too many frogs had too much fun!

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## bsr8129

Whats all in this tank?


----------



## Mohlerbear

I see a gecko? What kind of frogs are housed. I see a couple on that big bromeliad. I bet they love it!


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Y0urbestfriend

I also see 3 tincs or something at the bottom


----------



## a hill

bsr8129 said:


> Whats all in this tank?



if we are talking fauna, there are varredero imitators, cobalts, and phelsuma klemmeri. 



Mohlerbear said:


> I see a gecko? What kind of frogs are housed. I see a couple on that big bromeliad. I bet they love it!



The bromeliad is well enjoyed. 



Y0urbestfriend said:


> I also see 3 tincs or something at the bottom



Yup. There's around ten in here. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## readygrown

Wait, what? You said there is TEN tinctorius in this tank? How big is the footprint? That seems like overkill?


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## FroggyKnight

readygrown said:


> Wait, what? You said there is TEN tinctorius in this tank? How big is the footprint? That seems like overkill?


I agree 100%. That is way too many frogs for this tank and the fact that you do not have easy access to the inside of the viv is a big mistake. Good luck keeping track of the thumbs, tincs and geckos once you unbolt that giant door...


----------



## a hill

readygrown said:


> Wait, what? You said there is TEN tinctorius in this tank? How big is the footprint? That seems like overkill?



It's four square feet. They're still juvies and I'll be separating as needed. To my surprise, they're using the whole tank and climb up to the very top consistently. It'll be interesting to see if this becomes normal behavior or is a stress response. 

I'm keeping a close eye on them, but it's a pretty large tank. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

FroggyKnight said:


> I agree 100%. That is way too many frogs for this tank and the fact that you do not have easy access to the inside of the viv is a big mistake. Good luck keeping track of the thumbs, tincs and geckos once you unbolt that giant door...



Surprisingly their movement is predictable and since they are predominantly asleep at night there is little risk after I double check where everything is. 

Now, opening it up by myself at 10 am is a tad bit riskier. 

It's kind of like opening a screen door at night with the lights on or off outside it. No lights, low chance of bugs, porch light too close to the door? Good luck. 

I'll take a video to show how simple this tank is to open up and whatnot in a bit. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## a hill

http://youtu.be/gaj4d0w_na8

Took a very rough video with me opening the Viv up. Figured that is simpler to make things a bit easier to understand. 

It's rough, all done and uploaded via iPhone. In the future I'll attempt to get on Grimm's level of epicness but I'll need friends help for that. 

-Andrew
Ps. I said glass a lot when I'm talking about the acrylic. It's just an old habit. No glass in the Viv build Yet. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## Mohlerbear

Looks awesome man! I bet they love. Good video. Can't wait to see when all of the tanks are done. 


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Mohlerbear

Love it**


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## a hill

Mohlerbear said:


> Looks awesome man! I bet they love. Good video. Can't wait to see when all of the tanks are done.
> 
> 
> Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks!

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## hydrophyte

Do you know what the composition of the foam is? If it is polyester foam it will poison everything.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog

using acrylic on the front pane, and using wing nuts made access really difficult, ( u think taking off a pane of acrylic in 7 minutes is easy??) and I think a poor design. Using a single Door track for one single piece of GLASS would have been the way to go.... it would take you 30 seconds to remove it, no ladder needed, no tools needed, and no need to worry about warping. I see this tank being a failure in the future.


----------



## Boondoggle

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I see this tank being a failure in the future.





a hill said:


> how I'm building the systems they should be able to function for fifty years at least with ony supplemental feeding and trimming as desired.


Awesome concept but I tend to agree with Troy on this one. You seem to be adding an insurmountable amount of variables and unproven techniques. I would love to be proven wrong on that BTW, and I wish you all the success in the world. Good luck, I'll be looking forward to your progress.


----------



## a hill

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> using acrylic on the front pane, and using wing nuts made access really difficult, ( u think taking off a pane of acrylic in 7 minutes is easy??) and I think a poor design. Using a single Door track for one single piece of GLASS would have been the way to go.... it would take you 30 seconds to remove it, no ladder needed, no tools needed, and no need to worry about warping. I see this tank being a failure in the future.



I'm in my 20s, I have friends over, in front of these tanks are couches. Glass wasn't an option. 

Good thing I have four more to go! 



Boondoggle said:


> Awesome concept but I tend to agree with Troy on this one. You seem to be adding an insurmountable amount of variables and unproven techniques. I would love to be proven wrong on that BTW, and I wish you all the success in the world. Good luck, I'll be looking forward to your progress.



I mean, at the end of the day it's a box that holds moist air and plants and frogs and bugs. 

Simple, right?
-Andrew



Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog

Ive had tanks and frogs since i was in my teens.... and I've always had lots of friends, over, boozing craziness.... never had an incident.....are u guys throwing stuff around the house??


----------



## TheCoon

The title of this thread is... fitting.


----------



## Dane

So you are using a single giant piece of acrylic for the door? And it's not bonded to the rest of the tank in any way? How are you going to prevent warping?


----------



## a hill

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> Ive had tanks and frogs since i was in my teens.... and I've always had lots of friends, over, boozing craziness.... never had an incident.....are u guys throwing stuff around the house??



Only when juggling the girls. 

Accidents happen, and I made the decision to guarantee that I can't break the tanks that way. 

The girls...









-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## a hill

TheCoon said:


> The title of this thread is... fitting.



I think it's the only thing that's not really debatable. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## a hill

Dane said:


> So you are using a single giant piece of acrylic for the door? And it's not bonded to the rest of the tank in any way? How are you going to prevent warping?



Correct. 

It is held on with machine screws which place pressure on the perimeter. Some warping is expected. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## Dane

a hill said:


> Correct.
> 
> It is held on with machine screws which place pressure on the perimeter. Some warping is expected.
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> 
> Smiling when unhappy makes you happier.
> Transcribed via Siri.


Pressure on the perimeter? Aren't there only four screws for something like 12 sq. ft of acrylic? As long as you are aware that it may cost you animals, and are ok with it...


----------



## a hill

Dane said:


> Pressure on the perimeter? Aren't there only four screws for something like 12 sq. ft of acrylic? As long as you are aware that it may cost you animals, and are ok with it...



May cost me animals?

I'm likely placing two more in the middle of the distance. I'm keeping careful watch and will be modifying as needed. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## a hill

When I awoke today, I decided to get some stuff done. 

First I figure I'll address some pressing issues. 

1. My father described the tanks as more modern art inspired than traditional Viv inspired, different aesthetics, but still well suited for the inhabitants. 

I agree. The foam will be covered in plants shortly. The test tank is providing the feedback and results that plants will root into the foam and the frogs do use the additional surface area from the pyramid foam. While many, possibly most, of the views of this thread have stated their strong dislike for the material, it works and I like it so it's staying. 

2. The tanks were built and ordered months ago. While I was designing them no one made many suggestions and now is past the time that this is useful. I'm letting the test tank show me where the stress points are in the front pane and will be adding additional machine screws to keep it sealed well. I'm also likely placing a longer one on the top corner or each tank so I can slide the pane over and don't need to lift it off. Might be a mistake, dunno. 

Feeders include bean Beatles, fruit flies, springtails, pinhead crickets, small crickets. 

Cobalts really love to climb to the top. I think they're more arboreal than thought. That said, they then enjoy jumping down to the bottom. Funky frogs. 



















-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## Dane

a hill said:


> 2. The tanks were built and ordered months ago. While I was designing them no one made many suggestions and now is past the time that this is useful. I'm letting the test tank show me where the stress points are in the front pane and will be adding additional machine screws to keep it sealed well. I'm also likely placing a longer one on the top corner or each tank so I can slide the pane over and don't need to lift it off. Might be a mistake, dunno.


You've been on this forum for almost 8 years, why would it be up to anyone else to direct what you do with your enclosures? There have been dozens of successful build threads that you could have accessed and utilized for instructional purposes. I really wish you all the best with your attempts, but so many things you have chosen to do seem to be contrary to widely accepted and utilized methods with proven and positive results.

...and as an aside, I truly feel bad about harping on your thread individually, there is a lot of potential in the remainder of your build. If you would like any more advice from me personally in regards to your continued endeavors (based on my experiences), I am happy to give it via PM or in this thread.


----------



## a hill

Dane, Reading hundreds if not thousands of threads led me to take some unconventional approaches. I like to try new things out. Problem with radical new ideas is that they don't align with the norms. 

I had no idea this would start such controversy though! 

We shall have to exchange PMs soon! It's not like you don't know what you're talking about, nor do you wish me ill. Discussion and debate is important to me. Some of what I'm doing will fail, some will be mediocre, and if I'm lucky I'll have a few winners too!

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## a hill

Been reviewing some build concepts. Decided to see if all the frogs were dead after some time with foam. Or of the plants would die first. 




Yet, despite my apocalyptic fears, things are still growing tremendously, so, I decided to go all out in one tank with foam. 










Other tanks will progress as well. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## a hill

All electronics have been acquired, almost. Plumber was a month later than planned but that was completed today. So yeah, I've been working on it but away from the forums, at least this thread. I've been reading a lot. 























































Probably going to pull some Cobalts soon. 

-Andrew



Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


----------



## mitcholito

I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Is this some kind of art project?


----------



## a hill

mitcholito said:


> I'm not sure what I'm looking at here. Is this some kind of art project?



Basically. The pvc will be covered in foam and then wrapped with epiphytes. Basically acting as vines and branches. 

Some progress shots. 









































































-Andrew


----------



## wikiwakawakawee

Slam a cow, this is the 2nd best set up I've ever seen so far. Nice job!


----------



## a hill

Did your monster tank ever get built?


----------



## a hill

This is the link to the threat on the apex forum which has more comprehensive information on my controllers. 

http://forum.neptunesystems.com/showthread.php?t=10779

-Andrew


----------



## wikiwakawakawee

a hill said:


> Did your monster tank ever get built?


Are you referring to my "Wall build" tank? If so, haha no. I was like 15 at the time and didnt even have a job, i was dreaming way too big. For now, im starting a 29Gal viv though.


----------



## a hill

wikiwakawakawee said:


> Are you referring to my "Wall build" tank? If so, haha no. I was like 15 at the time and didnt even have a job, i was dreaming way too big. For now, im starting a 29Gal viv though.



Boooooooo

Yes I was.


----------



## wikiwakawakawee

a hill said:


> Boooooooo
> 
> Yes I was.


Haha dont worry, I'll make it eventually This 29Gal is going to be a gift for my family before i leave to the Marines. Then maybe when i comeback, i'll finish what i started


----------



## a hill

To be fair, originally this was only supposed to fill a hole in my wall that is 30in by 30in by 72in, that was the plan from the moment I walked into the condo. This whole ten foot by two foot by six foot wall... Came to be two years after I stepped in. 

I've been researching how to do this since I read the thread where a member here made a large greenhouse panel tank in the basement to get Darklands or Esperonzas to breed. 

I truly believe massive, sculptural, show tanks are the future of the growth of the hobby. Imagine a casino in Vegas doing a ten story wall of plants and frogs in their lobby... Or art museums having an exhibit of vivariums from a vivarium design competition!

The aquarium community has that commonplace almost now.


----------



## a hill

The bonuses of a vivarium opposed to an aquarium are large too. For example, no algae issues to worry about. No insane weight factor. 100s of gallons of water won't be able to flood a space if something goes wrong (specifics may vary)

Anyways, just covered the middle tank's pvc with foam. Next I'm glueing and wrapping the last tank with foam. 









-Andrew


----------



## a hill

-Andrew


----------



## isias

Wow this is gonna be epic, keep it up!


----------



## wikiwakawakawee

Yeah i remember a member on here was making a vivarium out of an entire room! I think he just stopped updating his build though=/ would be cool to see a mini indoor rain forest!


----------



## readygrown

Can we get some better close ups of your one completed tank?


----------



## a hill

wikiwakawakawee said:


> Yeah i remember a member on here was making a vivarium out of an entire room! I think he just stopped updating his build though=/ would be cool to see a mini indoor rain forest!



I'm pretty sure that was fake. 

When I build a house I'm going to do a 10ft cube I think. 










-Andrew


----------



## wikiwakawakawee

How was it fake? He posted pictures and updates of what he was doing to the room... then all of a sudden he just stopped halfway and never posted again.


----------



## wikiwakawakawee

This is what i was talking about:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/46988-terrarium-room-build-pic-heavy.html
Is this the one you were referring to be fake?


----------



## a hill

It wasn't. I believe the thread I'm referring to was removed from the forum.


----------



## jimmy rustles

How are the inhabitants doing, if i remember correctly, you wrote somewhere, that you lost one? Do you provide uvb lightning? Another cool species i could imagine gliding through that much space is holaspis


----------



## a hill

jimmy rustles said:


> How are the inhabitants doing, if i remember correctly, you wrote somewhere, that you lost one? Do you provide uvb lightning? Another cool species i could imagine gliding through that much space is holaspis



I lost a phelsuma klemmerii. After taking with some others I've concluded it was due to age, I received it as an adult pair of unknown age. 

The Kessils provide UVB and is one reason I purchased them. That said supplemented flies for vitamin A is done as normal. 

Recently I removed four of the tinctorius to trade for some other frogs of which will not be going in this tank . 


Of note, there is a thread discussing this thread. I'll stay out of it with respect to allow for a discussion and not be actively in it. 

-Andrew


----------



## TheCoon

a hill said:


> The Kessils provide UVB and is one reason I purchased them. That said supplemented flies for vitamin A is done as normal.


Unless you have a screen top which I don't think you do, none (or very very little) of the UVB from the Kessil is penetrating the acrylic.


----------



## a hill

TheCoon said:


> Unless you have a screen top which I don't think you do, none (or very very little) of the UVB from the Kessil is penetrating the acrylic.



I'm aware. In the future I'll be modifying the tanks and testing uv before to see if any gets through. I purchased a two inch hole saw and I'll likely make a vent hole directly below each Kissel. I've also debated placing a uv source inside the enclosures. 









Regardless, the phelsuma was isolated and put in a qt tank and after some time passed away in isolation. The remaining gecko is healthy. 

-Andrew


----------



## a hill

While I'm not concerned or rushing to add uvb for the tank, I'm considering using something like this and placing them on the top front lip facing into the tank from the interior. 

No, I haven't moved past the basic idea yet. 









-Andrew


----------



## MasterOogway

Those LED's won't do much for you. They put out wavelengths of 390-420 nanometers, which is only UVA. If you're looking for extra D3 production, this won't do it for you. Behaviorally, UVA is thought to influence some things, but I've never seen any actual evidence for this. I couldn't even tell you what it would do. I haven't dug through the literature about it yet though. I wouldn't waste your time or money on those though.


----------



## alogan

This looks awesome!!! So stoked to see what it turns into.


----------



## a hill

TarantulaGuy said:


> Those LED's won't do much for you. They put out wavelengths of 390-420 nanometers, which is only UVA. If you're looking for extra D3 production, this won't do it for you. Behaviorally, UVA is thought to influence some things, but I've never seen any actual evidence for this. I couldn't even tell you what it would do. I haven't dug through the literature about it yet though. I wouldn't waste your time or money on those though.




Ah I meant to screen capture uvb. Either way I'll be playing around. 

-Andrew


----------



## a hill

Price on these is a bot crazy but the led is the correct spectrum. 








http://www.intl-lighttech.com/products/e310pcb-uv-led

-Andrew


----------



## jimmy rustles

hows everything going?


----------



## Igot99problems

Yeah, where heck did you go? Lol


----------



## Mohlerbear

How are the tanks holding up?


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## a hill

I got busy with some things that people in my life claimed should take priority. How weird is that?!?!

I've been stress testing the system with one tank and have failed to kill the frogs, their tadpoles, and microfauna. Only managed to kill some plants by drowning. 

The tank was left for one month this past summer with only a local frogger checking on it and feeding my other frogs. All frogs were healthy on microfauna only, he fed some bean Beatles, but said he didn't feel it was needed. When I returned I saw he was right. 

I'm currently working on ways to make the system self contained and running without my intervention in person for six months to a year. 

The hardest issue is food and nutrition. So I'm researching this heavily and the next few months will be working with some people much smarter than me to help
Figure this out. 

I'm really liking weevils, aphids, mites, and springtails. It's just hard to get ahold of the right people and the right types. 

I'm going to be using some of the bulkheads to use as ports for auto feeders for things such as flies and beetles to walk from a culture into the tank. Possibly through a third step which is a dish of nutrient dust.

I'm also going to look into possibly misting vitamins in on occasion, but for many reasons this is unlikely to be worthwhile. 

Substrate I've found simple crushed charcoal and clay works best. Upon this I place bananas and allow my microfauna to create a rich organic compost to produce a huge amount of food for foraging. This, Is obviously a slow but worthwhile process. In the text tank I took about two pounds of compost out yesterday and have another ten to fifteen to remove today. 

All in all, no surprises. Might change the stand a bit to use pipe instead of wooden legs, and am now only using the open cell foam, it works fantastically and gives a great uniform look in my opinion. Although, I may try to work with a manufacturing the future to get pyramid cut foam that is a much larger pore density so the plants can root inside. They tend to just root all on top of it. Either way, it keeps them nourished but allows for not too much static sogginess. 

In tanks I used great stuff I have actually removed it all to do purely open cell pyramid foam backgrounds with a half inch pvc trellis wrapped in the open cell foam to provide even more useful surface area to place plants. 

I'm waiting for weather to clear till I do the large plant orders. It's still a bit toasty here in Arizona. 

The majority of tanks won't be stocked with frogs till close to the end of the year. I'm trying not to get a group of those devil frogs... But will mostly be doing aboreal frogs who enjoy broms. One tank will have highlands for sure. 




On a pure housekeeping note, I owe some people some cultures and I think I have a frog from the auction months back. 

So, I'm around and can be found if you yell in the right direction. 

-Andrew


----------



## a hill

I should add, in a swipe rate post for emphasis, that I left two pounds of ripe bananas in my tank before I left for the month. 

When I say microfauna this includes everything including fruit flies that are established in my composting substrate. 

So there were lots of grubs and flies and everything else. 

-Andrew


----------



## cam1941

Any photo updates?


----------



## a hill

Progress has been slow since the last plumbing bits I've given way too much thought. 

I also had a bunch of issues with tools breaking. Like every tool last week I broke in weird freak accidents. No bodily harm occurred though. 

Today I'm dry fitting all plumbing. I'm drilling through the back brace of the stand and using pvc. All of the hardware had been sitting in boxes for quite some time. 









The tanks are two feet off the wall so I have a bit more room. I need to also decide upon how I want to do my light fixures, but I'm likely using goose necks. They're kinda pricey, surprising since geese are everywhere in great abundance I thought!

As of just now the room is ugly and messy. It's a good thing I'm single! 









I've drilled all the tops and added the fans and bulkheads for hands off feeding. Also added mister bulkheads. Each tank has four mister bulkheads with single L midgets from mist king. I need to email Marty about a few minor details and grab s few more pieces before I'm all done there. 

Hands off for a week or more is common in the test tank. Plenty of food is in there it seems. That said, I'm still dusting flies once a week. I need more supplements to Repashy is going to get some of my money. 

I'm also finding humidity issues in my fly cultures. While I'm likely going to seal the bug closet and add humidity controls, I've also taken to using growler jugs. It seems to work pretty well. I'm also drilling out the caps (plastic ones) and plan on using some tubing to try auto feeding bean beetles, fruit flies, and other things. So the tank always has a bit in there. They will go in via the rear bulkheads and help make sure the frogs stay fat. Yes, I'm concerned of them getting their supplements too. No worries there. 

In a 66 qt sterilite brand container I have substrate being seeded with micro fauna. I recommend using the large 22qt cambro containers, but I had none empty at the time. The cambro round containers can be turned to keep the substrate evenly seeded, although any barrel will do. 









In other news, bug cultures are having generally positive growth. I am still having setbacks. I seem to have the best success with larger cultures. 









Top: springtails in charcoal, springs in charcoal, bean beetles, bean beetles, assorted dried mosses in front.
Middle: isopods, isopods, springtails
Third shelf: isopods
Below and above top shelves are various culturing and substrate supplies & experiments. 

I'm also prepping driftwood with moss and algae. Will have to dip them for snails before using in vivaria. 
























One well developed tray of moss, I need to start about six more. 









So yes. Progress does exist. I'm hoping to be able to have the major work done and the tanks planted within two weeks to have a dinner party. 

A few bonus images. 

Got a new toy to make smoothies. Ok, to clean my floors. It's amazing how dirty my floors get even with constant cleaning. (Constant means daily)








Somewhere in there, are baby imitators. 








Beautiful snakes. Nope, not mine. 








So pester me a bit in a week and green things may be seen in all tanks!

-Andrew


----------



## a hill

In other news, I'm not sure if tap talk is uploading photos that actually are high quality, and if not I'll try and fix this later. 

Pvc glue makes your head feel funny. I don't recommend using it as an air freshener. 

I'm likin carnivorous plants for escaped ff control. 









And I may have another monster tank project for the spring for a potential client. So the big tank project of mine will begin world domination!!!!! Muahahaha. 

Ok. Really, let me know if these photos are pixilated to you. 

Sleep is smart, I'm not. 
-Andrew


----------



## a hill

Ok, so it looks like taptalk doesn't let me post high quality images in app anymore? I've got to figure this out. 

Plumbing should be finished tonight. I may glue it all tonight too, not certain on that aspect yet.

-Andrew


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

I just use photobucket now if I want to upload high res images for forums.


----------



## a hill

Rushthezeppelin said:


> I just use photobucket now if I want to upload high res images for forums.



Yeah... 

It used to work fine though. 

-Andrew


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

a hill said:


> Yeah...
> 
> It used to work fine though.
> 
> -Andrew


They were probably running into issues being able to afford the bandwidth to do so, especially since it went free a while back. Who knows though.


----------



## a hill

Rushthezeppelin said:


> They were probably running into issues being able to afford the bandwidth to do so, especially since it went free a while back. Who knows though.



Maybe. I will have to look into it, if I remember correctly it was photobucket or imageshack hosting being used. 

All the holes in the stand are drilled, only burned my hand a few times on hot drill bits; drilling through 3x4 isn't without friction! Now for some food and back to doing pvc the rest of the night. Might glue it all since it's nice and cool in Arizona right now. I may wait to fill my house with fumes till tomorrow though. 

Trying to figure out my picture uploading problem. . . 








It's definitely scaling them down in the app. 

I guess I'll have to use my computer for image posts from now on. 

-Andrew.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Photobucket has an app you can use. And I thought tapatalk hosted their own. Are you saying they just contracted out to photobucket or imageshak to run the uploading/storage for their own doman?


----------



## a hill

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Photobucket has an app you can use. And I thought tapatalk hosted their own. Are you saying they just contracted out to photobucket or imageshak to run the uploading/storage for their own doman?



Yes, that is exactly what I thought was happening. 

Plumbing is half done. I just need to add the ball valves and a few elbows. Also need to decide if I'm going to keep the current drain reservoir or change it. 

-Andrew


----------



## elianto

a hill said:


> I got busy with some things that people in my life claimed should take priority. How weird is that?!?!
> 
> I've been stress testing the system with one tank and have failed to kill the frogs, their tadpoles, and microfauna. Only managed to kill some plants by drowning.
> 
> The tank was left for one month this past summer with only a local frogger checking on it and feeding my other frogs. All frogs were healthy on microfauna only, he fed some bean Beatles, but said he didn't feel it was needed. When I returned I saw he was right.
> 
> I'm currently working on ways to make the system self contained and running without my intervention in person for six months to a year.
> 
> The hardest issue is food and nutrition. So I'm researching this heavily and the next few months will be working with some people much smarter than me to help
> Figure this out.
> 
> I'm really liking weevils, aphids, mites, and springtails. It's just hard to get ahold of the right people and the right types.
> 
> I'm going to be using some of the bulkheads to use as ports for auto feeders for things such as flies and beetles to walk from a culture into the tank. Possibly through a third step which is a dish of nutrient dust.
> 
> I'm also going to look into possibly misting vitamins in on occasion, but for many reasons this is unlikely to be worthwhile.
> 
> Substrate I've found simple crushed charcoal and clay works best. Upon this I place bananas and allow my microfauna to create a rich organic compost to produce a huge amount of food for foraging. This, Is obviously a slow but worthwhile process. In the text tank I took about two pounds of compost out yesterday and have another ten to fifteen to remove today.
> 
> All in all, no surprises. Might change the stand a bit to use pipe instead of wooden legs, and am now only using the open cell foam, it works fantastically and gives a great uniform look in my opinion. Although, I may try to work with a manufacturing the future to get pyramid cut foam that is a much larger pore density so the plants can root inside. They tend to just root all on top of it. Either way, it keeps them nourished but allows for not too much static sogginess.
> 
> In tanks I used great stuff I have actually removed it all to do purely open cell pyramid foam backgrounds with a half inch pvc trellis wrapped in the open cell foam to provide even more useful surface area to place plants.
> 
> I'm waiting for weather to clear till I do the large plant orders. It's still a bit toasty here in Arizona.
> 
> The majority of tanks won't be stocked with frogs till close to the end of the year. I'm trying not to get a group of those devil frogs... But will mostly be doing aboreal frogs who enjoy broms. One tank will have highlands for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On a pure housekeeping note, I owe some people some cultures and I think I have a frog from the auction months back.
> 
> So, I'm around and can be found if you yell in the right direction.
> 
> -Andrew


i m very very sorry to actually not be too enthusiastic about this whole thing but its just a very hot mess to me.

like big budget low taste if you feel me..


----------



## a hill

elianto said:


> i m very very sorry to actually not be too enthusiastic about this whole thing but its just a very hot mess to me.
> 
> 
> 
> like big budget low taste if you feel me..



I actually completely understand. 

I'm trying to do things differently. That comes with pros and cons. I truly believe the best things in life tend to be hot and messy . 

Some day, in the future, when it's all set up and lush with plant growth, you should stop by if you're ever in Arizona. I've been told it's best experienced in person. 

My dad calls the design like something in a future space station. It's modern for sure. Frogs seem to be happy. I was just showing someone (actually a date, she likes frogs it turns out!) and was surprised by a new imitator tadpole about to morph out that I hadn't known was there. Microfauna is booming and plants are finally growing into the foam. 

-Andrew

Ps. I have normal tanks too. It is just another 20L with a 1.2 of luecamelas, a 66qt sterilite tub that was meant to be a quarantine tank until they started breeding in it 1.1 D. Auratus "super blue". Or just vertical tanks overgrown with plants housing a male neon day gecko. In my opinion, nothing noteworthy or interesting enough that (for me) I would be learning or adding to the knowledge of the community. Not that I think less of these animals and their homes.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

I kinda tend to agree with him. I'll admit though I am biased in thinking that making something as naturalistic as is within your ability is the best thing to do with most herps. Granted like so much of herp husbandry this is all just based on opinion and gut feeling (with a dash of experience). I suppose it is a good sign that you've got a tad about to morph out. I just personally can't stand when somebody puts something very human looking in a herp enclosure though, but as long as your frogs aren't keeling over or showing obvious stress or lack of natural behaviors I can't rightfully put you down. It certainly doesn't look as bad as the people who make bearded dragon enclosures with backsplash tile and flowery wallpaper (might as well put an oven in and throw an apron on the beardy at that point), at least you have plenty of plants


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## a hill

I ask you, where are tree fern panels, coconuts, and coco fiber vines found in nature? 

If you look, analytically, the overwhelming majority of the "naturalistic" vivarium style is not representative of the location for these creatures either. Malaysian driftwood isn't, it's a bogwood from Malaysia. 

Basically it's just a normalized, popularized style that you see here. At the end of the day, once plants grow in you can't see anything else, and it's just substrate for plant growth. 

And if we can accept this, optimizing our artificial environments for the needs of the inhabitants can happen, opposed to building personal fantasies of what we believe to be natural. 

Or for example, we can question what a terrestrial frog is, because I have tincs sleeping four feet off the ground each night. Something absolutely impossible in almost all other captive population's enclosures. Over the past year I've ruled out this being a stress response, but others are encouraged to see if it happens if they provide that ability to the frogs. Or that my imitators love to be on the ground foraging the bugs in the substrate just as much as catching fruit flies at the very top of the tank! Although, most people would not be surprised by this. 

In short? There is nothing natural about keeping frogs in tiny glass boxes, or even large glass boxes, to think the interior design of any of the environments is actually "natural" is wishful thinking at best, and arrogance at worst. 

Although, I'm not suggesting what is done is poor husbandry! It's just not natural, only imagined to be so. 

-Andrew


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## Rushthezeppelin

a hill said:


> I ask you, where are tree fern panels, coconuts, and coco fiber vines found in nature?
> 
> If you look, analytically, the overwhelming majority of the "naturalistic" vivarium style is not representative of the location for these creatures either. Malaysian driftwood isn't, it's a bogwood from Malaysia.
> 
> Basically it's just a normalized, popularized style that you see here. At the end of the day, once plants grow in you can't see anything else, and it's just substrate for plant growth.
> 
> And if we can accept this, optimizing our artificial environments for the needs of the inhabitants can happen, opposed to building personal fantasies of what we believe to be natural.
> 
> Or for example, we can question what a terrestrial frog is, because I have tincs sleeping four feet off the ground each night. Something absolutely impossible in almost all other captive population's enclosures. Over the past year I've ruled out this being a stress response, but others are encouraged to see if it happens if they provide that ability to the frogs. Or that my imitators love to be on the ground foraging the bugs in the substrate just as much as catching fruit flies at the very top of the tank! Although, most people would not be surprised by this.
> 
> In short? There is nothing natural about keeping frogs in tiny glass boxes, or even large glass boxes, to think the interior design of any of the environments is actually "natural" is wishful thinking at best, and arrogance at worst.
> 
> Although, I'm not suggesting what is done is poor husbandry! It's just not natural, only imagined to be so.
> 
> -Andrew


I said as natural as is within our ability. Tree fern panels and cocofiber on GS still has more of a natural look than exposed foam pyramids, something very inorganic. And of course some people (and I plan on doing this with my first setup here soon) want to create something as close as they can get to a zoo exhibit biotope. And of course yes even then it's nothing compared to them being able to roam miles at their leisure in the wild. I think it's more for the physiological comfort of the keeper than the stress of the frog in a way once again harkening back to this basically being just opinion.


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## a hill

In my view, it's just a way to increase surface area and provide a good medium for plant growth. It won't be visible long term. 

Fun fact, cork oak is from the Mediterranean. 

-Andrew


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

naturalistic, doesn't necessarily mean biotype, or making a tank with only natural things from that distinct region. Im sorry man, but every time I read your responses, you sound like a space cadet art teacher that I had in college. Its just BS man, theres no way you're actually serious about creating an argument that, wood, great stuff covered to look like dirt, vines, roots, and other things we use in tanks that we also see in nature, are as natural looking as freaking foam pyramids man.... common dude, what you're creating is a very static inorganic looking background that isn't pleasant to look at in a naturalistic aesthetic, If you wanna make modern art, thats fine stick to that, make modern looking artistic branches out of what ever the hell you want, just don't argue that its just as naturalistic as what most in the hobby try to emulate. You can be technical and say that a lot of the wood that we use isn't from the region or locality that the animals are, but guess what, WOOD in general is there, and it looks natural, guess whats not there?, freaking foam pyramids. Your correct about nothing being natural in keeping them in glass boxes, but the whole point of making any type of tank, fish, herps, so on and so fourth being naturalistic, is to make the animals act as closely to as they would in their natural environment. To each their own, but I still think this entire project is a complete disaster, and also a failure. In my opinion. (obviously)

Fun fact, Bark is from trees and looks natural in any Dart frog tank, or anything that lives in the jungle


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## MasterOogway

Rushthezeppelin said:


> And of course yes even then it's nothing compared to them being able to roam miles at their leisure in the wild.


Fun fact #3. Darts, once they've established a territory, have a home range of usually something in the realm of 10-30 square meters. 

_Home range size and location in relation to reproductive resources in poison frogs (Dendrobatidae): a Monte Carlo approach using GIS data_; Brown, et. al.


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## a hill

Of all online forums I've always valued the even temperament, intellectual atmosphere, and supportive community exhibited here over the years.

I don't think I've read in other threads projects being blasted as disasters; including personal attacks of character, personal values, class, and intelligence. 

(The exception has been threads about a certain company.)

It may surprise those who are following this (in the shadows mostly) that I give these fellow forum members response much thought. 

In turn, my test tank has had extended time, with harsher conditions to make sure I'm not going to have to tear every tank down if I was wrong. So far, it's great. 

One individual who has posted, has been attacking me on various forums for over five years. It's an honor. Almost as much as a former girlfriend having a section in a fashion forum about her being ugly. (Skinny gossip is the site if I remember right? I was shocked.)

This said, in my wondering as to why I have generated these responses from multiple people here I have continually come to two conclusions. 

One is simple jealousy, something that shocks me and I didn't anticipate. 

Secondly is what seems to be a fear response. We fear unknowns, yet all I'm doing is creating unknowns. 

My intent upon the thread was to share what I'm doing. Explain why I am doing it. Then document the process and the results. Hopefully providing some education, entertainment, and head shaking along the way. 

Somehow, sadly, this has been missed. Although, some friends have suggested that it has been achieved incredibly well. They have suggested the responses are indicative of successful exploration of alternative ideas. 

In closing, I'll update this still on occasion. 

-Andrew



Oh, substrate test tubs are good to go and have been successful so substrate is seeded and ready. I also found some blue day geckos locally and will hopefully have some breeding pairs producing within the next year.


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## Dane

I wouldn't discount the possibility that some of the negative feelings regarding your project stem from the fact that you are choosing to mix animals from all over the globe in the same enclosure.


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## kromar

i would guess its mainly because you use really unconventional build methods, and some people think you are here for "their" feedback/help and if the do not get acknowledged then they get angry or whatever. (im am not referring this to any answer/user in this thread)

but hey this is the interwebz so this is to be expected, some like what we do some dont, no reason to go all crazy about it. but being "stalked over multiple forums over multiple years seems to be quite extreme

i would be really interested to see how that pyramid background did work out and how it looks now, i could imagine that it could look really cool it it grows over


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## RabidSimian

Dane said:


> I wouldn't discount the possibility that some of the negative feelings regarding your project stem from the fact that you are choosing to mix animals from all over the globe in the same enclosure.


At the risk black listing myself, 13 years ago I also had a large mixed vivarium. In it I had a breeding trio of Phelsuma quadriocellata (Peacock day gecko), Damon diadema (tailless whip scorpion), various tree frogs, and a caecilian that thrived in my substrate. Both the Day Geckos and Whip Scorpions produced offspring multiple times and thrived. I saw no issues as the baby geckos were too fast for the scorpions and frogs, and the tailless whip scorpions stayed with their mother as they were raised. When my parents kicked me out a few years later, I sold the tank and the multiple generations of animals in them to different keepers (each species was sold separately). 

On another occasion about 8 years ago I accidentally introduced fire belly newt eggs on several plants to the water feature in a communal Scolopendra subspinipes mutilans (red head centipede) enclosure. Months later I found well developed juvenile newts sitting on the same plants that the centipedes often used to bask at various times of the day. Did they sense the toxins and not eat the newts? No clue. But the two species thrived together for some time.

Do I encourage mixed tanks? No. But can it be done? Yes. You find patterns with a number of species in various parts of the world as similar species fill parallel ecological niches. As an example day gecko varieties are found in Tanzania (such as Lygodactylus spp.) around Damon diadema habitat, while whip scorpions can be found on Madagascar in Phelsuma quadriocellata habitat. Their behavior may be different in various degrees, but the instinctual interspecific responses are probably quite similar. This may have been how my old tank had success and I may have just been lucky.

Beyond this many animals that fill different roles in an ecological niche interact in a number of ways. If conditions are correct, such as micro-climates in a large tank with a wide temperature and humidity gradient, and food sources are more than ample, most of these interactions will be neutral. As an extreme example it has been recorded that a specific frog species lives in the burrows of a large communal tarantula in Peru known as Pamphobeteus sp. Chicken Spider and the tarantulas leave it be. It eats nuisance ants and the spiders eat larger prey items. When you make a mixed tank you have to research excessively and be able to micro manage more and make sure all the variables are accounted for. This can be a task that is too much for many people. The problems arise when a variable or parameter shifts, yet with a larger tank and ecosystem this is more easily managed and the extensive food sources and habitat size acts as a buffer. The keeper just must understand that there is always risks and those risks can be quite severe. So many choose not to risk the life of a living creature.


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## Mavpa

a hill said:


> Of all online forums I've always valued the even temperament, intellectual atmosphere, and supportive community exhibited here over the years.
> 
> I don't think I've read in other threads projects being blasted as disasters; including personal attacks of character, personal values, class, and intelligence.
> 
> (The exception has been threads about a certain company.)
> 
> It may surprise those who are following this (in the shadows mostly) that I give these fellow forum members response much thought.
> 
> In turn, my test tank has had extended time, with harsher conditions to make sure I'm not going to have to tear every tank down if I was wrong. So far, it's great.
> 
> One individual who has posted, has been attacking me on various forums for over five years. It's an honor. Almost as much as a former girlfriend having a section in a fashion forum about her being ugly. (Skinny gossip is the site if I remember right? I was shocked.)
> 
> This said, in my wondering as to why I have generated these responses from multiple people here I have continually come to two conclusions.
> 
> One is simple jealousy, something that shocks me and I didn't anticipate.
> 
> Secondly is what seems to be a fear response. We fear unknowns, yet all I'm doing is creating unknowns.
> 
> My intent upon the thread was to share what I'm doing. Explain why I am doing it. Then document the process and the results. Hopefully providing some education, entertainment, and head shaking along the way.
> 
> Somehow, sadly, this has been missed. Although, some friends have suggested that it has been achieved incredibly well. They have suggested the responses are indicative of successful exploration of alternative ideas.
> 
> In closing, I'll update this still on occasion.
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, substrate test tubs are good to go and have been successful so substrate is seeded and ready. I also found some blue day geckos locally and will hopefully have some breeding pairs producing within the next year.


I'm saying this purely to maybe give you some kind of closure on this and not as a personal attack, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that someone could read this thread and find you somewhat off-putting. 

I mean, whatever, do what you feel, it takes all kinds, everyone is free to be how they want to be, etc, etc, etc... but you gotta accept the fact that people may be rubbed the wrong way by your online personality. Also, those people (and probably more people) would also be annoyed by some attempt to explain why you are the way you are or whatever, so it's probably best to just let that be.

As far as the merits of letting their opinion of YOU carry over into their opinion of YOUR WORK, I would say you should just value their opinion as you see fit based on what you think they're really basing it on.

Again, just my 2 cents.


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## Dane

RabidSimian said:


> At the risk black listing myself, 13 years ago I also had a large mixed vivarium. In it I had a breeding trio of Phelsuma quadriocellata (Peacock day gecko), Damon diadema (tailless whip scorpion), various tree frogs, and a caecilian that thrived in my substrate. Both the Day Geckos and Whip Scorpions produced offspring multiple times and thrived. I saw no issues as the baby geckos were too fast for the scorpions and frogs, and the tailless whip scorpions stayed with their mother as they were raised. When my parents kicked me out a few years later, I sold the tank and the multiple generations of animals in them to different keepers (each species was sold separately).
> 
> On another occasion about 8 years ago I accidentally introduced fire belly newt eggs on several plants to the water feature in a communal Scolopendra subspinipes mutilans (red head centipede) enclosure. Months later I found well developed juvenile newts sitting on the same plants that the centipedes often used to bask at various times of the day. Did they sense the toxins and not eat the newts? No clue. But the two species thrived together for some time.
> 
> Do I encourage mixed tanks? No. But can it be done? Yes. You find patterns with a number of species in various parts of the world as similar species fill parallel ecological niches. As an example day gecko varieties are found in Tanzania (such as Lygodactylus spp.) around Damon diadema habitat, while whip scorpions can be found on Madagascar in Phelsuma quadriocellata habitat. Their behavior may be different in various degrees, but the instinctual interspecific responses are probably quite similar. This may have been how my old tank had success and I may have just been lucky.
> 
> Beyond this many animals that fill different roles in an ecological niche interact in a number of ways. If conditions are correct, such as micro-climates in a large tank with a wide temperature and humidity gradient, and food sources are more than ample, most of these interactions will be neutral. As an extreme example it has been recorded that a specific frog species lives in the burrows of a large communal tarantula in Peru known as Pamphobeteus sp. Chicken Spider and the tarantulas leave it be. It eats nuisance ants and the spiders eat larger prey items. When you make a mixed tank you have to research excessively and be able to micro manage more and make sure all the variables are accounted for. This can be a task that is too much for many people. The problems arise when a variable or parameter shifts, yet with a larger tank and ecosystem this is more easily managed and the extensive food sources and habitat size acts as a buffer. The keeper just must understand that there is always risks and those risks can be quite severe. So many choose not to risk the life of a living creature.



It sounds like you were fortunate in your mixing endeavors (and accidents). Did you keep any of those species in separate enclosures first, to acquire a real-life understanding of their normal behaviors in order to gauge how they were being impacted by their new tankmates? 
Did you do any regular health screening to determine if any of the animals developed an infection due to an introduced novel pathogen? 
Additionally, unless I misunderstood, the examples you listed of sympatry in interspecies situations are all naturally occurring, and don't really apply to the argument of mixing animals from widely separate locales, in a confined space, in competition for the same food supply.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

I actually wrote out a long response... then deleted it... I don't wanna even deal with this nonsense anymore, good luck with this tank, I'm unfollowing... by the way Ive never been jealous of something i look at as a disaster or a total failure....so again your in the clouds on even considering that. take care


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## Encyclia

a hill said:


> Of all online forums I've always valued the even temperament, intellectual atmosphere, and supportive community exhibited here over the years.
> 
> I don't think I've read in other threads projects being blasted as disasters; including personal attacks of character, personal values, class, and intelligence.
> 
> (The exception has been threads about a certain company.)
> 
> It may surprise those who are following this (in the shadows mostly) that I give these fellow forum members response much thought.
> 
> In turn, my test tank has had extended time, with harsher conditions to make sure I'm not going to have to tear every tank down if I was wrong. So far, it's great.
> 
> One individual who has posted, has been attacking me on various forums for over five years. It's an honor. Almost as much as a former girlfriend having a section in a fashion forum about her being ugly. (Skinny gossip is the site if I remember right? I was shocked.)
> 
> This said, in my wondering as to why I have generated these responses from multiple people here I have continually come to two conclusions.
> 
> One is simple jealousy, something that shocks me and I didn't anticipate.
> 
> Secondly is what seems to be a fear response. We fear unknowns, yet all I'm doing is creating unknowns.
> 
> My intent upon the thread was to share what I'm doing. Explain why I am doing it. Then document the process and the results. Hopefully providing some education, entertainment, and head shaking along the way.
> 
> Somehow, sadly, this has been missed. Although, some friends have suggested that it has been achieved incredibly well. They have suggested the responses are indicative of successful exploration of alternative ideas.
> 
> In closing, I'll update this still on occasion.
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, substrate test tubs are good to go and have been successful so substrate is seeded and ready. I also found some blue day geckos locally and will hopefully have some breeding pairs producing within the next year.


This bothers me. I have followed this thread since the beginning and I have trouble understanding the response by some people on this board. This is a unique build and Andrew did some stuff that is not toeing the party line. He was trying to share this with the community. For that, he is vilified. This does not say good things about this board, in my opinion.

I am sure that most of the people registering their disapproval thought they were doing so in part to protect the integrity of the accumulated knowledge of the board. This is important, I agree. It would be unfortunate for someone new to come to this thread and think that this build represents what the board considers to be best practices. However, I think that can be done once per person, and gently, rather than the constant barrage of criticism that Andrew has absorbed in this thread. 

I don't necessarily think that all decisions made on this build are going to prove to be the right ones. However, I really appreciate that Andrew was willing to post about his experiences so that I know what I might be able to try in the future and what I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole. This board, in my opinion, needs to be a place where these types of threads are welcomed. I don't think we did ourselves any favors by how we responded to this thread.

That's just my opinion, though. YMMV.

Mark


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## macuser

i actually saw this thread for the first time yesterday and i appreciate the pictures and look forward to updates. regarding comments i did not read, i didnt read them so i have no comment.

Please keep updating this thread with progress pictures. thanks


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## RabidSimian

Dane said:


> It sounds like you were fortunate in your mixing endeavors (and accidents). Did you keep any of those species in separate enclosures first, to acquire a real-life understanding of their normal behaviors in order to gauge how they were being impacted by their new tankmates?
> Did you do any regular health screening to determine if any of the animals developed an infection due to an introduced novel pathogen?
> Additionally, unless I misunderstood, the examples you listed of sympatry in interspecies situations are all naturally occurring, and don't really apply to the argument of mixing animals from widely separate locales, in a confined space, in competition for the same food supply.


Yes. I had separate tanks for them before hand, and during (20-40 gallon tanks) and even had several in display pieces I set up at the pet store I worked in. Both species produced offspring in the other tanks, but the gecko eggs never hatched in the single species ones. As for any pathogen, I cannot say as all adults and resulting offspring thrived till the day I had to dismantle the tank (it was about 120 gallons, heavily planted). 

As for the food supply, the geckos ate small crickets and a nectar mix I created while the tailless whips ate larger crickets I supplied and only their young needed smaller prey. The vivarium was also teaming with isopods, small snails (introduced by a plant), small millipedes, springtails, worms in the substrate, and other bugs. Not to mention the fruit flies I added periodically. There was a variety of food and an excess of food sources. 

One of the examples I listed was of day geckos inhabiting the same areas as tailless whip scorpions in both Tanzania and Madagascar. I merely substituted one species from one locale for another. My speculation was that the instinctual behavior and responses for species that are relatively similar in behavior (including time of day they are active), diet, and temperament would work in their favour to be switched out with another species from a particular niche and allow a more balanced vivarium. And it was a balance, a balance that worked for me for many years, and I can't stress this enough, may not work for anyone else.


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## a hill

(Hardscape of a 18x18x24 tank. To be planted soon)

More normal vivariums are definitely possible, but that's not the point of the insanity project. 

That said. 

While I've succeeded with simple substrates over the past few years (having done long term observation while under different conditions per test tank or tub) I believe there is still room for refinement. 

See, the goal of the Insanity project is to create a "set it and forget it" type of system. It's a damn near impossible goal. Starting with the substrate and micro fauna, and balancing that with frogs and having enough vegetation uv exposure etc etc etc. I'm sure we all can understand the difficulty. 

Recently, I have become more and more interested in carbon and high carbon substrates and it turns out they have been created in the Amazon basin by indigenous people for a LONG LONG TIME. While unknown how long exactly, it is known that these substrates have a much higher CEC and thus better for growing crops in the nutrient poor clay of the region. 

Activated Carbon, is usually used in filtration of air and water. The well used ABG mix has some in it as well. I'm currently investigating wether high grade activated carbon inside the substrate as the drainage layer and then a different type within the topsoil layer would work to keep the terrarium cleaner and healthier. It might be a huge waste, but the capacity to charge it with calcium and then have the micro fauna transport it to the frogs is one interesting but unlikely possibility of this substrate. Additionally, I personally like the color, and the fact that it will help filter everything even if these units by current design are not containing recirculating water. (RODI is misted, and after it accumulates at the bottom and is past the set overflow height it drains the excess out.). This additive may also eliminate any smell and fear of gas build up in the bottom of the substrate, which I believe would be highly beneficial to tanks that are not to have drilled bulkheads and drains that allow the substrate to be flushed out occasionally. 

Oh, and the first bromeliads should be arriving next week. Along with the last pieces for the misting system. I need more pieces! 

Last but not least, has anyone played with extruded aluminum framing from McMaster? I'm thinking it may be good to use in the future and for the lights on this tank. 








-Andrew


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## a hill

This is as of last night. I'll have better photos to post by the end of the week I hope. The iPhone isn't great. 









-Andrew


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## Dane

Any updates on the progress of the animals in these vivs?


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## theglass.eye

Are there any recent updates?? I am new and very curious! This is literally insanity!


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## MasterT

Thank you for setting the bar high. Half the people reading this I don't think realized that they were all in separate enclosure that were attached to make one. Nothing your doing seems harmful to the anime. The High Density open cell all though is not the highest density, should retain roots well. I work with open cell quite a bit. 

To answer others questions it should be a polyethylene foam if I am not mistaken. Should do the job just fine. I am afraid that over time you may get some bad mold in there bro but you would know. Figure this threads been up for a bit. I would love to get some updates on this. What I have read in here will help me exponetialy with these first tanks that I am building.

And haters gonna hate man! I'm glad you haven't let some of these salty people get under your skin. Just keep doing you and take care of your animals.


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## Dane

MasterT said:


> Thank you for setting the bar high. Half the people reading this I don't think realized that they were all in separate enclosure that were attached to make one. Nothing your doing seems harmful to the anime. The High Density open cell all though is not the highest density, should retain roots well. I work with open cell quite a bit.
> 
> To answer others questions it should be a polyethylene foam if I am not mistaken. Should do the job just fine. I am afraid that over time you may get some bad mold in there bro but you would know. Figure this threads been up for a bit. I would love to get some updates on this. What I have read in here will help me exponetialy with these first tanks that I am building.
> 
> And haters gonna hate man! I'm glad you haven't let some of these salty people get under your skin. Just keep doing you and take care of your animals.


I think you may have glossed over a few things earlier in the thread. He DID choose to keep multiple animals from disparate locations in the SAME enclosure, at a very high density, and as I recall, he did lose animals in the process.


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## erikm

I fixed your last sentence for you.



MasterT said:


> Thank you for setting the bar high. Half the people reading this I don't think realized that they were all in separate enclosure that were attached to make one. Nothing your doing seems harmful to the anime. The High Density open cell all though is not the highest density, should retain roots well. I work with open cell quite a bit.
> 
> To answer others questions it should be a polyethylene foam if I am not mistaken. Should do the job just fine. I am afraid that over time you may get some bad mold in there bro but you would know. Figure this threads been up for a bit. I would love to get some updates on this. What I have read in here will help me exponetialy with these first tanks that I am building.
> 
> And *experienced keepers* gonna *question* man! I'm glad you haven't let some of these *experienced* people get under your skin. Just keep doing you and take care of your animals.


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## MasterT

erikm said:


> I fixed your last sentence for you.


Lol Good correction thank you.


And He lost a frog to age he expects I may have read it incorrectly but if that is what we are reffering to that does not seem tooo bad.

And I mean we are dealy with 24 cubic feet per enclosure that's pretty huge. I"ll re read through and see what you are talking about


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## MasterT

Dane said:


> I think you may have glossed over a few things earlier in the thread. He DID choose to keep multiple animals from disparate locations in the SAME enclosure, at a very high density, and as I recall, he did lose animals in the process.


Yeah I seen he had some Tincs, Imitators, and Geckos in a 179 gallon tank. Uhmmm this doesn't seem to bad, I can see lots of visual barriers, I have read lots of forums of people having gecks and frogs together. Also with the frogs being juvies and temporary as he said, it doesn't seem to bad. 

I also get the questioning though. I'm still super new to this stuff but I have researched for a couple horus a day now for about a month and ahalf and in the first week of research I had watched over 12 hours or so of videos and was doing about 3 hours a day of research. Nothing seems to bad here, The open cell is unorthodox but he said he did this on a smaller scale in worst conditions to test and it seems legit.


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## Dane

MasterT said:


> Yeah I seen he had some Tincs, Imitators, and Geckos in a 179 gallon tank. Uhmmm this doesn't seem to bad, I can see lots of visual barriers, I have read lots of forums of people having gecks and frogs together. Also with the frogs being juvies and temporary as he said, it doesn't seem to bad.


It looks like he housed 10 tinctorius, at least two imitators, and at least two Phelsuma. For fourteen animals that originate from separate parts of the world, and may not have had any prior quarantine or health screening, that size doesn't seem good (at least to me). 



MasterT said:


> And He lost a frog to age he expects I may have read it incorrectly but if that is what we are reffering to that does not seem tooo bad.


He mentions losing a gecko of unknown age to 'old age'. I don't know exactly how one could make that conclusion, especially without a necropsy, but no other information was provided.


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## MasterT

I get they are from different parts of the world, but I see people housing geckos and frogs all the time, and with the two types of frogs, they can't breed, and it is large enough to where it should, should being the key word, be safe. To each their own though, I would do it if it was horizontal, just so I know there was more floor space but even with this, I bet the frogs see eachother once or twice a day, and go their separate ways.


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## itzkramer

I don't care for the way these tanks look. 
Also, just because something is possible doesn't mean you should do it (whether it be mixing animals or forcing dart frogs to live on pyramid foam). If I were those frogs I would be upset.


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