# What exactly does it mean when you have your frog's lineage?



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

I haven't been able to find much information about this. I have heard in multiple places that knowing the lineage of your frogs is important, however, I don't understand how to find out what different lines are in this country (USA). Is there a name for the different lines? I also wanted to know if you buy your frogs from a reputable breeder but they do not have line info available for certain frogs, then what does that mean? Do all breeders know their frog's lines? I just wondered if it was like having a Pedigree for a pure bred dog?


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

It's just how we keep track of frogs. Say a certain importer brings in a batch of O. pulmilio. Those frogs may be referred to by that person's name and more or less information may be known about those frogs.. Like a better idea of where they were collected. 

Is it important? That's complicated. One it's an informal, non registered system, that is not really tracked. So, it's only as reliable as the honesty of the seller and how well they keep track. But, it is all we got. It does help track the frogs but, I don't have any of that information on any of my frogs and I am not really worried about it. But, if I could find it out I would.


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## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

Usually I only buy animals from people who have maintained reliable lineage info. This is so that I can breed the animals with unrelated lineages to avoid inbreeding.

Finding out the different lines requires research and firsthand knowledge of the different imports of animals throughout the years.

Different lines tend to be associated with a person's name when they are responsible for that import and stabilizing the wild caught specimens. But nowadays no ones cares and just inserts the name of the breeder, but that really never is a 'line' in the traditional sense. Definitely not all breeders know their frogs lines, again most don't care. Keeping these animals is purely a novelty to most people and they tend to believe frogs are immune to the consequences of inbreeding depression (100% false), but again very few people care.

Knowing lineage is something that is extremely important to me. I will not buy an animal if I can't get reliable lineage info from someone. But sometimes I can get some info that I can go off of. Like if I recognize a particular line that certain people are working with, I can recall what the line is if someone gives me a random person's name.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

bulbophyllum said:


> It's just how we keep track of frogs. Say a certain importer brings in a batch of O. pulmilio. Those frogs may be referred to by that person's name and more or less information may be known about those frogs.. Like a better idea of where they were collected.
> 
> Is it important? That's complicated. One it's an informal, non registered system, that is not really tracked. So, it's only as reliable as the honesty of the seller and how well they keep track. But, it is all we got. It does help track the frogs but, I don't have any of that information on any of my frogs and I am not really worried about it. But, if I could find it out I would.


Ah, thank you for that information. I wondered if there was any possible way to know if they were ever hybridized in their line but I guess that's just something you have to trust breeders about then


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

In addition to what's been said above, an important reason to know the lines of frogs is to know or suspect whether those frogs are descended from animals that were legally exported from their country of origin. Sometimes, reading export history from lineage info is challenging, and requires some background knowledge and some dependence on reasonable assumptions. Some species/morphs/locales never were legally exported from their native country, so those are easy to determine.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Tinc Tank said:


> Usually I only buy animals from people who have maintained reliable lineage info. This is so that I can breed the animals with unrelated lineages to avoid inbreeding.
> 
> Finding out the different lines requires research and firsthand knowledge of the different imports of animals throughout the years.
> 
> ...


Where do you learn which lines are available and is there a way to verify that the line even exists or if the breeder is just making it up? Thank you for the information, this is very valuable


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> In addition to what's been said above, an important reason to know the lines of frogs is to know or suspect whether those frogs are descended from animals that were legally exported from their country of origin. Sometimes, reading export history from lineage info is challenging, and requires some background knowledge and some dependence on reasonable assumptions. Some species/morphs/locales never were legally exported from their native country, so those are easy to determine.


It's so interesting to me that you can glean so much information just from knowing the name of the line. Thank you very much for helping me with all of my questions recently


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## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

Nepenthesx said:


> Ah, thank you for that information. I wondered if there was any possible way to know if they were ever hybridized in their line but I guess that's just something you have to trust breeders about then


That is exactly a reason to know your lineage info. I know 100% that there are hybrids floating around in this hobby, underneath everyone's noses, and knowing the lineage is crucial to avoid muddying up a particular locale. In certain cases, I would never cross 2 lines, as in the case with _Dendrobates tinctorius_ 'Koetari River'.



Nepenthesx said:


> Where do you learn which lines are available and is there a way to verify that the line even exists or if the breeder is just making it up? Thank you for the information, this is very valuable


This would be hard to help with in many cases. This comes with experience being around for a while. At the very best, you can buy animals from totally separate breeders and it would be better than breeding siblings hatched from the same clutch.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It is so much more enjoyable to know. And then there's the thing where you realize you cant rely on what you are told in many cases. 

The picky niche people other people call elitists hold threads of real info together in all the messy chaos. 

I have a mix of subjects some origin accounted and some not. I really like knowing my traced guys. Its a different experience.


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## DendroJoris (Apr 13, 2021)

Personally, I would never buy frogs without a known lineage.
In the Netherlands it's even obliged to know the lineage of our frogs to some extent.

To this day still lots of frogs are smuggled which is detrimental to the wild population.
Where there is demand, there is supply... 
Here in the Netherlands the frog club has compiled a list of almost every species and their lineage to prevent illegal imports being sold. I don't know if there is such a list for the United States, but maybe someone can chime in about that. 

I think knowing the lineage is not so much about preventing inbreeding depression, but more about avoiding hybridizing and buying illegal imports.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

DendroJoris said:


> Personally, I would never buy frogs without a known lineage.
> In the Netherlands it's even obliged to know the lineage of our frogs to some extent.
> 
> To this day still lots of frogs are smuggled which is detrimental to the wild population.
> ...


It would be SO HELPFUL if there were a master list in the US! That is a wonderful idea that you guys in the Netherlands have come up with. If anyone has any idea if this exists in the US please let me know about it.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Nepenthesx said:


> It would be SO HELPFUL if there were a master list in the US! That is a wonderful idea that you guys in the Netherlands have come up with. If anyone has any idea if this exists in the US please let me know about it.


It might be tough for most Dendrobates, but Ranitomeya are well tracked by most reputable sellers.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Nepenthesx said:


> It would be SO HELPFUL if there were a master list in the US! That is a wonderful idea that you guys in the Netherlands have come up with. If anyone has any idea if this exists in the US please let me know about it.


I don't know the specifics of the laws elsewhere, but the legal situation in the US makes absolute determinations impossible (note that I support the relevant laws here, so this isn't a criticism).

In the US, a wildlife specimen (the actual animal) is illegal if it or the animals it is descended from were acquired in violation of the law of any country, state, or tribal nation, and the owner of this specimen knows it. Some frogs -- Understory Enterprises imports, for example -- are legal on these grounds. Some frogs -- a couple examples: any morphs of any Brazilian frogs exported from Brazil at least in the last few decades; a couple known species on CITES Appendix I -- are, strictly speaking and in some recent cases practically speaking, illegal in the US on these grounds.* Most other darts are legally 'gray' -- whether they left their native country with proper permits is a matter of speculation; this is the 'absolute determination' problem, and it derives from the (uniquely, as far as I know) US requirement that the founding stock be legal, too. Searching 'illegal frogs' here opens up the rabbit hole.

*There are many, many species of very common herps (and other exotics) in the US that are known to be descended from smuggled animals and as such are, strictly speaking, illegal in the US.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

DendroJoris said:


> Personally, I would never buy frogs without a known lineage.
> In the Netherlands it's even obliged to know the lineage of our frogs to some extent.
> 
> To this day still lots of frogs are smuggled which is detrimental to the wild population.
> ...


Where would you find this lineage info? I’ve bought three sorts of dart frogs from reputable breeders in the Netherlands and have no idea about the lineage


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## DendroJoris (Apr 13, 2021)

SimonL said:


> Where would you find this lineage info? I’ve bought three sorts of dart frogs from reputable breeders in the Netherlands and have no idea about the lineage


I found it here: DN toetsingslijst 
Whilst not every species has complete info it gives some information about the lineage and/or heritage.

The laws regarding keeping, buying and everything in between I found here: Wetgeving 
Sadly, it's behind a paywall, so you have to be a member of dendrobatidae Nederland.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Thanks, I’m a member so will check it out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BostonFrogs (Jan 16, 2018)

Nepenthesx said:


> It would be SO HELPFUL if there were a master list in the US! That is a wonderful idea that you guys in the Netherlands have come up with. If anyone has any idea if this exists in the US please let me know about it.


I'm working on a website/service to track, trade, sell, and/or loan individual frogs using a distributed ledger frog record. Every frog will have a unique ID / record and ID / records of the parent frogs/trio/etc.

Lots of work on the part of onboarding users to add all their frogs to their dashboard and create records for froglets, but it will streamline trading and lineage will eventually track itself. Best of all, being a distributed ledger will make it sustainable. So if my site goes down or I have a stroke (let's hope not!), the database can live on.

Working on integrations this year, may be available late 2022! Anyone who would like to contribute, let me know.


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

BostonFrogs said:


> I'm working on a website/service to track, trade, sell, and/or loan individual frogs using a distributed ledger frog record. Every frog will have a unique ID / record and ID / records of the parent frogs/trio/etc.
> 
> Lots of work on the part of onboarding users to add all their frogs to their dashboard and create records for froglets, but it will streamline trading and lineage will eventually track itself. Best of all, being a distributed ledger will make it sustainable. So if my site goes down or I have a stroke (let's hope not!), the database can live on.
> 
> Working on integrations this year, may be available late 2022! Anyone who would like to contribute, let me know.


 I love that idea! That would help a lot of people I'm sure and also make it easier to avoid illegal frogs


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

BostonFrogs said:


> I'm working on a website/service to track, trade, sell, and/or loan individual frogs using a distributed ledger frog record. Every frog will have a unique ID / record and ID / records of the parent frogs/trio/etc.
> 
> Lots of work on the part of onboarding users to add all their frogs to their dashboard and create records for froglets, but it will streamline trading and lineage will eventually track itself. Best of all, being a distributed ledger will make it sustainable. So if my site goes down or I have a stroke (let's hope not!), the database can live on.
> 
> Working on integrations this year, may be available late 2022! Anyone who would like to contribute, let me know.


This already exists. 

Froglog : Overal je dierenadministratie bij de hand


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Tijl said:


> This already exists.
> 
> Froglog : Overal je dierenadministratie bij de hand


AFAIK FrogLog isn’t using any kind of distributed ledger though.


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## BostonFrogs (Jan 16, 2018)

SimonL said:


> AFAIK FrogLog isn’t using any kind of distributed ledger though.


Precisely, this is a centralized database/service. Not saying they ever would, but FrogLog could unilaterally hold your records up, change their user agreements, privacy policies, cancel your subscription and access, etc, etc.

Also, I would not be monetizing via subscriptions. Initially would be donation based as folks are onboarded, then a very, very marginal pay-to-post/create records fee with the option of paying a bit more for featured posts, etc.


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