# 225 gallon viv



## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

I posted this in vivarium construction, but I guess since it is pretty much done this is really the place for it. I just finished building this 225 from scratch. I built everything except the wet/dry filter. I put a mistking and a CO2 system from milwaukee on it. I currently have 4 HO T2s with 2 105W CFLs but I am thinking of just upgrading to a 250W HQI to get better depth penetration. It will be housing a group of banded fantasticus and a group of variabilis as well as some panda discus from Jack Wattley. Let me know what you think now that I have this in the right place with the right pics.
Chris


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Chris ..first i would like to say very good job on the tank, it looks amazing . Second i would go agaisnt putting any dart frogs in there, there is way too much water in there . Thirdly i wont even get into how i feel about mixing species , you are aware that Yellow Fants and Variabilis can cross breed correct ? .. 

Just my few thoughts but def nice job on the tank .


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

wow that is a bigg tank! i would have put some ground space and its not too late!i would def take the water out and rethink the floor . personally i would do a ledge type concept so the water would go completely under the floor,but it may take a lot of bracing.some cascading simiaquatic vine would look cool draping over into the water! i would be scared to attempt to put any darts in it though as it sits.it sucks when you get something done to second guess it and tear it apart but doing it now will help in the long run.
hope this helps........looks awesome! my next tank will be a paludarium! they look awesome!but i am still contemplating it as i really wouldnt want darts with other species of ANYTHING!


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

I know you guys are relatively new to the frog hobby, so I will teach you a few things about building tanks.

First, large water features are not a problem for dart frogs in general. Over the past 15 years I have built many tanks with them and never had a problem. You have to make sure that you provide escapes at many points for the frogs. This is accomplished in this tank by sloping the land areas where they meet the water, placing branches at the water level and building artificial rocks on the sides.

Second, in Peru, you can always find a variety of Ranitomeya frogs sympatrically living without problems. When I picked the R. summersi and variabilis, I checked on the locality data and found that they have overlapping ranges. Taropoto actually has imitator, fantasticus and variabilis. R. summersi has a completely different call, so it is unlikely that it would interbreed with a variabilis. Even if it did, so what.

Third, if I only measured the land area I would have a tank that is 42x14x30. That is roughly 75 gallons. These frogs were chosen precisely because of their arboreal qualities so this would not be an issue. Variabilis is a highly arboreal frog that will be well suited to an aquarium such as this.

Lastly, the whole point of this tank is not just to make a lame paludarium but to produce a showpiece that has both the elements of an amano style tank and a vivarium. To drain the water would remove the discus element from the tank, which is half of the point of it.

C


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

First, awesome vivarium. I am very impressed; that said, I do have some comments.



mille981 said:


> First, large water features are not a problem for dart frogs in general. Over the past 15 years I have built many tanks with them and never had a problem. You have to make sure that you provide escapes at many points for the frogs. This is accomplished in this tank by sloping the land areas where they meet the water, placing branches at the water level and building artificial rocks on the sides.


I would tend to agree, but the issue I see is the lack of horizontal space. Yes, the species you chose are very arboreal, but they are not strictly arboreal. They do use horizontal area rather commonly. I would consider putting some horizontal area in the tank for the animals to forage (remember, microfauna is very important, especially for froglets). You'll get some microfauna in vertical structure, but nearly the amount that you'd get in leaf litter.



> Second, in Peru, you can always find a variety of Ranitomeya frogs sympatrically living without problems. When I picked the R. summersi and variabilis, I checked on the locality data and found that they have overlapping ranges. Taropoto actually has imitator, fantasticus and variabilis. R. summersi has a completely different call, so it is unlikely that it would interbreed with a variabilis. Even if it did, so what.


True that they do have overlapping ranges, but they are not confined to a 42x14x30 area in the wild. In such a confined area, they would be forced to interact and males may fertilize eggs from the other species. As far as "so what," that really lies in your conscience as to whether or not you care about the impact mixing species has on maintaining a species in captivity (Remember, many of these frogs are threatened at least locally, if not as a whole species).



> Third, if I only measured the land area I would have a tank that is 42x14x30. That is roughly 75 gallons. These frogs were chosen precisely because of their arboreal qualities so this would not be an issue. Variabilis is a highly arboreal frog that will be well suited to an aquarium such as this.


See comment above. The frogs would benefit from some horizontal area. You bring up Peru and the wild; do you think that these frogs, in the wild, spend their whole lives plastered to the side of a tree and never go into the leaf litter?



> Lastly, the whole point of this tank is not just to make a lame paludarium but to produce a showpiece that has both the elements of an amano style tank and a vivarium. To drain the water would remove the discus element from the tank, which is half of the point of it.
> 
> C


I wouldn't necessarily get rid of the paludarium (I like the discus element, and wish you luck with that since discus seem to be very picky), but I'd just consider possibly adding in a horizontal ledge for the frogs.


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

The land area here is 14" wide and 42" long. I don't know of any thumbnail frogs that need more than that.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I don't understand, why are you asking for opinions when you already know it all?


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

I didn't ask for any opinions thanks. I just posted a couple of pics.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

mille981 said:


> The land area here is 14" wide and 42" long. I don't know of any thumbnail frogs that need more than that.


Thank you for clarifying. From the pictures, it looks like there is just a straight drop off with no ledge of sorts for them to get on (same with the lack of leaf litter). Perhaps it's just a function of the photo as there aren't close ups on areas.


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

lol

>.>
<.<


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

mille981 said:


> ...Let me know what you think now that I have this in the right place with the right pics.
> Chris



Not asking for opinions?


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

i dont want to make this a hate thread and didnt mean to offend you(if i did).........personaly i like the tank ,but do think i would have added more floor space.





p.s. do you have a pic from above the tank to better assist everyone ?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I think if you add some large wooden branches, it would be a perfect tank for tree frogs, and it would make a nice breeding setup. You would need to install a rainbar or misting system though, and the overhanging branches would allow the frogs to deposit their eggs.

Perhaps add a "shelf" to go across the water more, so they have more land area?


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

It looks awsome.
You initially mentioned lighting. I like the idea of upgrading to HQI. It looks like your lights are about 3-4 feet above the water, which makes it a little dark. The water also looks a little turbid-- was it just the photo, or has it cleared up?

I'm also curious: with using CO2 for the planted aquarium, do you have to worry about air exchange to avoid suffocating the frogs, or is the quantity of CO2 used so small it doesn't matter?


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## loogielv (Nov 28, 2008)

i'm curious about the c02 as well. how do you plan to incorporate it?


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

Nillocean said:


> Not asking for opinions?


Perhaps I needed to be a little more specific in terms of my intentions for posting the pictures here. I am looking for input regarding the overall look/feel of the vivarium, not in regards to what will be living in it.

I would not put in the many weeks of work to complete the vivarium without first researching what I wanted to be in it, and combining that with my previous knowledge/experience.

Although I do appreciate the feedback already given here, it was not the specific feedback I was asking for. I was only looking for thoughts regarding the overall look/feel, and although I felt that my original post was sufficient in expressing that desire, it turns out that that was a false assumption on my part.

I do plan to take the time to respond to comments and answer questions specific to the overall look/feel as well as the operation of the vivarium via this forum thread. If you would like to discuss anything else regarding the vivarium, I would rather keep that to PM's since my intention for posting the pics in the first place was to gain others thoughts regarding the overall look/feel and perhaps tweak that look/feel through those comments.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. I look forward to your comments regarding the overall look/feel of the vivarium, as well as answering your questions regarding construction and operation.


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

tzen said:


> It looks awsome.
> You initially mentioned lighting. I like the idea of upgrading to HQI. It looks like your lights are about 3-4 feet above the water, which makes it a little dark. The water also looks a little turbid-- was it just the photo, or has it cleared up?
> 
> I'm also curious: with using CO2 for the planted aquarium, do you have to worry about air exchange to avoid suffocating the frogs, or is the quantity of CO2 used so small it doesn't matter?


I've had to do a 100% water replacement once already which did help to clear up things by about 50%, but even after that, I may have to do another one at some point to clear it up some more. So, no, it's not just the photo. I'll post another photo once the water clears up some more.

As for the CO2, not really. CO2 is only added to the misting system, as well as getting extra filtering to prevent sediment buildup in the misters.

Tank Water Supply (After tank filter) > Sediment Filter > CO2 > Misters

Since they only run for one minute four times a day, the chance of suffocation is next to nothing.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Deleted ( do not need the headache right now )


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks for answering my questions.
I thought you were using CO2 in the water for aquatic plant growth.
So by using it for your misting system, you are doing without a pump? 
Do you have any links for the construction or equipment/ system you used?


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

I would suggest getting some otos (small, docile algae eaters) to keep the tank algae free.

I'm not trying to be a downer, but isnt the low to (preferably) mid 80's temperature that the discus need going to be unhealthy to the darts?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

bobberly1 said:


> I'm not trying to be a downer, but isnt the low to (preferably) mid 80's temperature that the discus need going to be unhealthy to the darts?


It's on the higher end, but as long as it doesn't go much above 82-84, most darts should be okay. Pumilio would be ideal in those temps, though.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Hmm, actually thinking about it, mid 80's in the water coupled with HQI's in the hood will create a very very hot environment. Do you have some significant air flow or cooling for the lights?

On the viv itself, your photos are too far away for me to give any real input on the design or plant placement, species selection ect. Can you provide us with close-ups?

I've learned that leaving cloudy water be for a little while ends up clearing it much faster once the bacteria settle rather than changing it every day. I'm sure since you're gonna be keeping discus, you may have other techniques.

What dart frogs do you keep now? Are you breeding anything?

Edit: It just sort of hit me that you said you will be adding CO2 to the misting system. Have you done this before with frogs? I'm no chemist but would CO2 present in the mist water in quantities sufficient enough to promote plant growth harm the frogs? Purely curious. I am trying to picture a frog showering in 7-UP...


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

The CO2 system is for the aquatic plants, but it runs through the system in a custom made diffuser with an outflow into the aquarium just for that. It goes through the whole system and the waterfall and the mister release some by diffusion do to the volatile nature. During the daytime when the lights are on, the plants are using CO2 when they do photosynthesis, but during the night they perform oxidative phosphorylation. For this reason the CO2 is on the same timer as the lights so that the release of CO2 correlates with plant use. This will help the land plants as well as the aquatic ones. In enclosed spaces photosynthesis can be inhibited by lack of CO2 which is why hydroponics companies often release it into greenhouses at a couple hundred ppm. I had even considered releasing some right into the tank but feel that there will be sufficient release from the water. It is not released in high enough amounts that could harm frogs and the ventilation will prevent the CO2 from pooling in the tank.


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## mille981 (Sep 9, 2008)

If the water is kept at 82-84, the heat released will not be enough to make it too hot for the frogs. Especially with the planned ventilation in the tank. When I install the HQI I will be putting a fan into the system though to get it going properly.

In response to the the floor space issue, there are quite a few ledges. Where the water meets the land is about 7" and at the top of the tank it is between 6 and 11". There are also many nooks and crannys that are hard to see in the photos.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

From what I can see I really like it. I am with Antone, is there any way that you can show mroe closeups for us to get a better idea of the planting setup or just a larger photo that we can zoom in on? I really like the idea of a tank that size and having it be a paludarium. How big is the water portion? 50ish?


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