# Unknown species photo'd today...



## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Photographed this species today at a local wetland area...was hoping somebody could help ID it.

Location: Puget Sound region, Snohomish County, Washington state
Size: large, estimated 6" +

My best guess is some sp. of neotenous Dicamptodon.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

One of the things that is throwing me off is the more consistent grayish coloration with the very distinct yellow spots. Most of the pictures I can find of Dicamptodon larvae exhibit a more brownish coloration and/or a more generalized mottled pattern as opposed to distinct spots on a solid color. 

Another crazy thought would be neotonous tiger salamander (Ambystoma tigrinum), HOWEVER, that species is not reported in western Washington from what I can find. Only eastern Washington...is it possible the species has expanded its range that far?

I can't wait for a positive ID on this thing.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Hmmm...that's really interesting. Where in Snohomish county were you? Neoteny doesn't usually occur unless it's a really cold area/stream/lake/etc.

Looking at the eggs it looks like an Ambystoma species but the odd spots are throwing me off.

Edit: Hard to tell from the pictures of the hind feet, but I'm going with Ambystoma macrodactylum. VERY nice find! They are common, but I've never seen one like that.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

AWESOME FIND. I agree, not a Dicamptodon, but Ive never seen any neonatal adults of Ambystoma in WA. Looks far too large and robust to be macrodactylum, Im guessing its A. gracile


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

heres a pic of a neonatal adult from washington, even though its from a california herps page. Apparently paedomorphic (neonatal) adults can exceed 10 inches in length
http://www.californiaherps.com/salamanders/images/agracilegillswa211.jpg

heres a pic of a large A. gracile egg mass
http://www.californiaherps.com/salamanders/images/agracileeggmasshand.jpg


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

It is a paedomorphic _Ambystoma gracile_.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Glad I have the caudata man backing my ID!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Thank you to everybody for your help! This is awesome!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I disagree! If it was gracile you would see glands on it's head and down it's back and tail. Also, ribbing on the sides. They also have much larger/different egg sacks.

The head is shaped more like macrodactylum and the eggs are that size. They are also the only one's with yellow in this area of washington.

I've been told where it was found and I'm quite baffled as why this would be there to say the least.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

The hind feet also definitely don't fit gracile...


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## Greatwtehunter (Jan 8, 2008)

John and frogparty are right. It's _Ambystoma gracile_. Northwestern salamanders don't develop the enlarged parotoid glands until well after metamorphosis. As for the eggs? You really can't base an ID off of them yet because she is in the process of laying them in the picture. For all we know she wasn't even half way done laying. Those eggs will increase to 2 or 3 times their current size in the picture within a day or two. 

Also, _A. macrodactylum_ rarely, if ever, reach 6 inches in length.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I still disagree  none of the morphological features fit gracile to me. And it's not just egg size, its how they look.

Also, most of the macrodactylum found in this area of washington are between 5-6 inches.

One last thing, gracile usually aren't breeding when it's this cold out here. However macrodactylum does.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm not taking sides here! 

Tonight I am going to zoom in on various parts of the full size pics, and post them up. That way you can see up close details.

I can also post a few habitat pics

BTW I am very close to the location right now and it is snowing, if that means anything regarding breeding season temps

And lastly, could this be some kind of hybrid or something weird?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I've seen northwestern salamanders breed this early. I think it's far too robust to be a long toed salamander. I used to do amphibian surveys for WDFW, and we saw plenty out at this time, even earlier. You've had a weird winter this year, bound to have an affect on average breeding time


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

frogparty said:


> I've seen northwestern salamanders breed this early. I think it's far too robust to be a long toed salamander. I used to do amphibian surveys for WDFW, and we saw plenty out at this time, even earlier. You've had a weird winter this year, bound to have an affect on average breeding time


It snowed today  Ya fair enough. Looking at it's morphological features though it's still A. macrodactylum in my opinion. I think I'm just gonna go to this wetland sometime this week and try and find one. Again, look at it's hind feet, sides, head, and the lack of glands. gracile larvae develop the glands before they leave the water, so this one should have them too.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I don't think paedomorphic individuals develop the enlarged parotid glands to the extent that terrestrial adults do.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I haven done THAT much digging, but I can't find evidence of paedomorphic individuals of macrodactylum. And also that macrodactylum does egg laying breeding excusively nocturnally


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

More diggin in amphibiweb reveals neoteny has never been recorded for macrodactylum


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

frogparty said:


> More diggin in amphibiweb reveals neoteny has never been recorded for macrodactylum


...damn....fine I admit defeat


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

It looks like the debate is over, which was unexpected. Either way, for those interested, here are some detail crops:





































Oh, and BTW, not to start anything up, but I just want to say...just because neoteny has never been recorded for macrodactylum doesn't mean it can't happen or never has. It just means it's never been recorded.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

It still looks like macrodactylum in every way to me honestly. I'm probably gonna go to this wetland and try to find one  What Jason posted though, pretty much guarantees its not though.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Little gold flecks on its skin are apparently pretty typical of neotenic individuals in the northern population. 
You want to see something crazy in regards to this species? There are LAVENDAR colored neonates in cranberry lake.


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Dicamptodon copei


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Definitely not a Dicamptodon, easily distinguished both by morphological characteristics, and style of egg deposition, as well as breeding location. Also, copes giants are not found where he found this specimin. Copes have a more restricted range in WA.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

BrianWI said:


> Dicamptodon copei


They aren't found in this area. It would also be much larger.

After looking through some books, I agree it's definitely A. gracile


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I used to find these feasting on salmon eggs as terrestrial adults in the very late fall/early winter. Always loved the gracile. Great salamander


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

I dunno the locations in WA they are found, but it I just don't see a perfect match to anything.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

BrianWI said:


> I dunno the locations in WA they are found, but it I just don't see a perfect match to anything.


Something I saw in a field guide I was looking in said "If we can't identify it, it must be a northwestern"

They apparently have a lot of variation. Hence why the random yellow flecking exists in neotenic adults. No doubt having to do with their evolutionary lineage.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

thedude said:


> ...damn....fine I admit defeat





thedude said:


> After looking through some books, I agree it's definitely A. gracile


Haha, as salamander guy, I don't make a definite ID unless I'm sure. I've got a rep to maintain!



frogparty said:


> I don't think paedomorphic individuals develop the enlarged parotid glands to the extent that terrestrial adults do.


Just FYI, it's parotoid, not parotid. Very different things, despite the similar name.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Ooh amphibian faux pas!!!! Apologies!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

johnc said:


> Haha, as salamander guy, I don't make a definite ID unless I'm sure. I've got a rep to maintain!
> 
> 
> Just FYI, it's parotoid, not parotid. Very different things, despite the similar name.


Psh, your amazing picture guy  You can't have both!


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

johnc said:


> Haha, as salamander guy, I don't make a definite ID unless I'm sure. I've got a rep to maintain!


Man I sound like a douche there!


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

Johnc,

It i sOK to sound like a douche. No one expects a guy identifying a salamander to be a stud. LOL.

Go Geeks!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

WARNING! THE LAST FEW PICS IN THIS POST ARE GRUESOME! VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!

I went back to the park today. Spent a good couple hours looking for more wildlife. Saw some various hawks including one feeding, bald eagles & nest, lots of amphibian eggs, a fake rubber frog, and a mangled/dismembered salamander corpse (yes, that's the gruesome part )

A fake frog, which fooled me for a couple seconds until I realized the orange spots were on the "frog" and not just pond scum / plant matter.










Eggs..










Interpretive sign that I never really looked at before










Detail on interpretive sign ... Northwestern Salamander (Ambystoma gracile)









Salamander corpse (Ambystoma gracile?)



















The salamander must have been a good size. I didn't want to get my finger too close to it (haha) so this pic doesn't really show how big it was. It was at least as thick as my thumb, and the half of it was at least 5"


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

See, now looking at the back feet and glands on that one it is easily distinguished as A. gracile  That other one was just trying to confuse people


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Something tried to eat it and decided against it. 
Totally greusome, but that's nature


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I imagine those secretions can't taste good. I've only ever had one use it on me before, wasn't a big deal till I got a little in my eye....


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

When I used to do a lot of handling of amphibians I started wearing gloves, more for the sake of them than me, but I rarely had any direct contac with A. gracile. I have been bitten b Dicamptodon on a couple of occasions though. The gracile secretions never bothered me.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I always make sure I have nothing harmful on my hands, although I should get some gloves to wear. It didn't bother me either, except when it got in my eye.

Ya I've been bit a couple times and one of them actually drew blood! Crazy "little" guys. I've never even found an adult


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I have found quite a few neonates while doing salmonid sampling using nets and electro fishing gear. Some neonates pushing 16". I have only ever found a handful of fully terrestrial adults. Almost all were very near the water under very flat stones. I do know the adults are highly nocturnal, and excellent diggers, so more nighttime 'manderin would be in order. I've seen A. gracile in many different habitats and locations, with many many color variations. The lavander neonates are my favorite, but big chunky skagit county adults look great too. These go heavy on the gold flecks and abound out by the salmon hatchery


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