# Attempted Shipping Nightmare



## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

Not sure I am posting this in the right place but here goes. (Rant Warning!)

I attempted to ship some frogs today to a friend in another state. I have never shipped frogs before and never thought this would be such a frustrating experience. I packaged up the frogs securely with a phase 22 panel in a insulated box. So far so good. Off to the FedEx location. Told the lady I wanted to ship this overnight. Told her it was live dart frogs. She said ok fill out the shipping label. So after doing that I returned to the counter and this time a new clerk spoke with me. After hearing I was shipping dart frogs he said they could not ship them at this location and had to use a shipping hub. So off I went box and shipping label in hand to the new location. Once there it was a comedy of errors as I watched 3 FedEx clerks/Supervisors attempt to figure out how to ship live animals. At one point they said they could not do it. They hunted around for their regulation/shipping rules manuel. Finally they called the 800 number used by customers to find out the info. After about ten minutes of phone tag I said forget it I would go over to UPS. Well at UPS they wanted to charge me $90.00 to ship overnight and then he said I would have to check with the UPS Store owner about shipping live frogs. $90.00 is half the price of the frogs value if I was even selling them to my buddy. But I'm just sending him some for his collection.

Well I packed up my frogs and went home completely disgusted with the whole process!!!

How the hell do you guys send frogs to each other. I have received frogs on many occasions so it can't be a huge issue.


----------



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Don't tell them they're Dart Frogs.

D


----------



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Ship through All Pro Shipping - Ship Your Packages. Professionally.. They take a lot of the hassle out of shipping.


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

I ship a lot of live fish and corals. I never tell anyone what is in the box. I use "perishable" labels on all sides of the box and leave it at that. If you tell them there are live animals they always freak out.


----------



## cypho23 (Apr 6, 2012)

I use a service called shipnex.com. They use UPS as their carrier now. Used to be Fedex. Either way, you set up your own shipment, at a much, much better price, and print your own shipping label. Box it up and drop it off before 7pm and you are golden. 

I used to use SYR for chameleons, but found that shipnex.com pricing was much better.


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

They don't know there own rules or sometimes how to find out the rules.

My UPS one time was confused and fortunately someone there did know what number to call to confirm it was fine.

I usually go with the some things are better left unsaid philosophy. It makes no difference in how the boxes are handled. Sometimes it is better not to watch the truck drivers unload trucks.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

The problem here is you are not allowed to ship live animals with FedEx unless you have a FedEx account. 
They will make you jump through hoops when you set up your account including making you ship sample packages to see your packing methods. 
The best, and only solution to this problem is to use SYR (Ship Your Reptiles)


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

And I need to note for all of those who suggest not labeling the box as to the correct contents that you are playing Russian Roulette with it... If something happens and it becomes known that your box doesn't say on the outside at the very least, "Live Harmless Wildlife", you are in violation of the Lacey Act and can be prosecuted under the labeling clause.... The fines are not incosiderable and you will end up with a label of being an animal smuggler...a scrutiny that may be very uncomfortable to deal with over time.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should note that I tend to use SYRs and I schedule Fed-ex to come and pick up the box... 

Ed


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

cypho23 said:


> I use a service called shipnex.com. They use UPS as their carrier now. Used to be Fedex. Either way, you set up your own shipment, at a much, much better price, and print your own shipping label. Box it up and drop it off before 7pm and you are golden.
> 
> I used to use SYR for chameleons, but found that shipnex.com pricing was much better.


Does shipnex.com have insurance? That's one of the reasons I use SYR. It's a very handy thing to have if you're shipping expensive frogs, or even common less expensive frogs for that matter.


----------



## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Ed said:


> And I need to note for all of those who suggest not labeling the box as to the correct contents that you are playing Russian Roulette with it... If something happens and it becomes known that your box doesn't say on the outside at the very least, "Live Harmless Wildlife", you are in violation of the Lacey Act and can be prosecuted under the labeling clause.... The fines are not incosiderable and you will end up with a label of being an animal smuggler...a scrutiny that may be very uncomfortable to deal with over time....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I was told the same thing by a herper about 20 years ago. He also said another reason for labling the outside of the box was the animal you are shipping would be stored in a climate controlled part of the plane. I don't know if they really do that or not but it sounded good at the time. At 30,000 feet its pretty cold


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Ed said:


> And I need to note for all of those who suggest not labeling the box as to the correct contents that you are playing Russian Roulette with it... If something happens and it becomes known that your box doesn't say on the outside at the very least, "Live Harmless Wildlife", you are in violation of the Lacey Act and can be prosecuted under the labeling clause.... The fines are not incosiderable and you will end up with a label of being an animal smuggler...a scrutiny that may be very uncomfortable to deal with over time....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


This is not true.


----------



## redfrogger (Nov 6, 2010)

TonyB. said:


> This is not true.


I would have to agree with Ed on this one. My understanding is that proper documentation is needed to ship live animals. We need to be responsible in taking proper care and transportation of these animals.


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I use syr but no where does it ask what you put In the box. Usually the people at fedex dont ask either when prepaid....for me at least. 

The only hassle I ever had was briefly by the workers who don't know the company rules at drop off and had to.go investigate while I sat there having to wait. I don't see an issue with not disclosing to the person at the desk.


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

redfrogger said:


> I would have to agree with Ed on this one. My understanding is that proper documentation is needed to ship live animals. We need to be responsible in taking proper care and transportation of these animals.


I have a FedEx account. I ship live animals on a regular basis. Before my first shipment with them I inquired about the rules and regulations. There was no mention about being required to declare what's in the box. They only regulation was that you're not allowed to ship any "restricted" animal which was described to me as anything that is illegal to posess or that you need a license to keep. Seems like common sense to me. The only thing they told me is that they will not honor any insurance claims for critters that are DOA. And there is certainly no risk of being labeled an "animal smuggler".


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

To everyone who is nay saying the Lacey Act and the proper labeling of your boxes, the Lacey Act is absolutely real. A single violation can cost you TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS, not to mention a year in prison. 

Lacey Act Overview
The Lacey Act: America's Premier Weapon
Lacey Act

The Lacey Act is not opinion. It is fact. If you don't properly mark your box and identify the species, it could cost you your freedom and a cool 10 grand.
If you are caught and convicted, I'm pretty sure that becomes public record that you have been convicted of illegally shipping animals. i.e. smuggling


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Another vote for SYR (also known as All Pro shipping). Good price, FedEx reliability, insurance available, and yes, if you don't want to drive to a world shipping center they will pick up at your home.


----------



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

MikeM670 said:


> How the hell do you guys send frogs to each other. I have received frogs on many occasions so it can't be a huge issue.



Try USPS. It's usually about half the cost and they only require a few things to ship live animals (*doesn't mean you should ever skimp though!*), as opposed to fed-ex making you set-up an account and ship out a sample (I had the same problem as you before, so I stopped using fed-ex and haven't hit a snag with USPS except that overnight shipping is not always available coast to coast.)

If you ship with Fed-ex via Ship Your Reptiles, then it will be accepted and even cheaper than normal price.

For labeling I put "perishable" labels on all sides, "please do not store outside" on top, and include the "Live Harmless Amphibian" as well as what's inside the package, in the packing slip on top of the box.


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

mydumname said:


> The only hassle I ever had was briefly by the workers who don't know the company rules at drop off and had to.go investigate while I sat there having to wait. I don't see an issue with not disclosing to the person at the desk.


It is within the right of any individual FedEx office to disallow the shipping or receipt of live animals in spite of the shippers pre-approval...that's company policy. It all depends on that particular offices policy, and it can change on a whim. I shipped from the same FedEx facility (with SYR) for over a year until one day they decided that it was now against policy. I called SYR and after a few phone calls came to the conclusion that my best bet was to either drop frogs off at the nearest World Shipping Center, or have them picked up.

Incidentally, if you want them picked up you can call SYR and they will arrange the whole thing. I don't believe there is even an additional charge.


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

TonyB. said:


> I have a FedEx account. I ship live animals on a regular basis. Before my first shipment with them I inquired about the rules and regulations. There was no mention about being required to declare what's in the box. They only regulation was that you're not allowed to ship any "restricted" animal which was described to me as anything that is illegal to posess or that you need a license to keep. Seems like common sense to me. The only thing they told me is that they will not honor any insurance claims for critters that are DOA. And there is certainly no risk of being labeled an "animal smuggler".


this is not true.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

TonyB. said:


> I have a FedEx account. I ship live animals on a regular basis. Before my first shipment with them I inquired about the rules and regulations. There was no mention about being required to declare what's in the box. They only regulation was that you're not allowed to ship any "restricted" animal which was described to me as anything that is illegal to posess or that you need a license to keep. Seems like common sense to me. The only thing they told me is that they will not honor any insurance claims for critters that are DOA. And there is certainly no risk of being labeled an "animal smuggler".


This is VERY MUCH incorrect information. Forunately several others have clarified this.

This needs to be VERY CLEAR, to anyone that reads this thread. especially newer keepers who might be just reading this for the first time, please do not be misled. You absolutely MUST meet the requirements of the Lacey act when shipping live animals. One of these requirements is an open written declaration on the outside of the box as to what species of animal is inside.

The rest of the information is fine, yes, you cannot ship anything illegal and the will not insure live animals.

The only thing I can think of Tony, is that you were misinformed of misunderstood. Perhaps FedEx doesn't require you to label or declare what you're shipping, but the Lacey act does, and is very clear about it, and if you're caught, you'll get a royal smackdown from them.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE people, stop suggesting that people ship live animals without the proper labeling. It is up to us as a community to make sure we give out the proper information and that we meet the various regulations. And if you do ship live animals without proper labeling, at least apply "Fight Club Rule"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

And if you want to Get "Technical"

Suggesting that you ship or encouraging others to ship, in violation of the Lacey Act could also be construed as a violation of the User Agreement for Dendroboard.



> Each DB member is strictly forbidden from posting, writing, displaying, discussing or causing to be posted, written, displayed, or discussed any abusive, obscene, vulgar, hateful, libelous, threatening, or sexually-oriented material or, further, any other material that may violate any applicable law.


----------



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Back on topic (the common problem dropping boxes @ Fed-Ex)... Even shipping w/SYR (or any 3'rd party shipper), you have to drop it off @ a Fed-Ex location... I've heard from a handful of our customers having issues just like the OP's...

Something to understand; Fed-Ex policy is not law. Nowhere in the Lacey Act (the _actual _law) does it say, "you must inform _the shipping company_ of..." or anything like that. The box must be legibly marked, "Contains Live Harmless Wildlife" to comply with the Lacey Act. Unless you know for sure that the Fed-Ex employees aren't going to hassle you over _what they incorrectly believe_ is law... Why speak up when you know you are doing the right (legal) thing?

Label the box to correctly comply w/the Lacey Act & do it the right way... That doesn't mean you need to write in giant 6" tall red letters, "*LIVE HARMLESS WILDLIFE!*".  How many Fed-Ex employees do you think would see that giant lettering & shake the box to listen for a sound? "Hey... (shakes the box) there really IS something alive in here... LISTEN!" (passes it to the next guy who shakes it...) "WOW!" (shakes it again) "Wait I can't hear anything anymore..." ... 

Legal, small, clean, legible font without calling unneeded attention to your box is my $0.02. Follow the law, just don't be the guy who drives 15MPH in a 45MPH zone, if you know what I mean... 

Edit: More great info about the Lacey Act: http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/articles/springsteen_lacey.pdf (Courtesy of Ed about a year back...)


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TonyB. said:


> I have a FedEx account. I ship live animals on a regular basis. Before my first shipment with them I inquired about the rules and regulations. There was no mention about being required to declare what's in the box. They only regulation was that you're not allowed to ship any "restricted" animal which was described to me as anything that is illegal to posess or that you need a license to keep. Seems like common sense to me. The only thing they told me is that they will not honor any insurance claims for critters that are DOA. And there is certainly no risk of being labeled an "animal smuggler".



As noted above, this is totally incorrect... The federal goverment requires all interstate state shipments to be at the minimium to be labled with the phrase Live Harmless Wildlife. In addition, if you deliberately mismark any paperwork associated with the shipment to hide what is in it, you are violating a second portion of the act..... 

Ignorance is no defense of the law. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

gary1218 said:


> Ship through All Pro Shipping - Ship Your Packages. Professionally.. They take a lot of the hassle out of shipping.



*Boy you can say that phrase again!*


Here is a update to my original post. Opened a account with SYR and then I contacted them and spoke first with I think it was Brad and then with Andy. I told them what happen. Andy walked me through the shipping issues and said to contact him if FedEx would still not accept the package. So armed with a new shipping label I heading back to the same FedEx location. Low and behold the same guy was still behind the counter! Told him I was now shipping under SYR services. He again balked and went into the back room and returned with a few handouts on why they would not ship the frogs. 

Well Andy had already told me to call back if there were any problems. Standing in the FedEx Lobby I called Andy. The Clerk walked off and would not return to the counter so Andy ended up calling his contact at FedEx while I waited in my car. Andy called me back and said The Animal Shipping Desk of FedEx had called the location and spoke with the main supervisor. Andy said the supervisor was aware of the regulations but was never contacted by any of his staff regarding my issue. So back in I went and actually was taken care of by the supervisor. No further issues with shipping out my package. He was even interested in them and I showed him some camera images of them and explained a bit about them. 

I just want to say that using SYR was a excellent experience and I can highly recommend them! I will be shipping with them in the future!


Also want to say my post generated a rapid response and thank you to everyone who posted advise or comments!


----------



## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Although I have only shipped a few packages containing frogs, I sure as heck write "Harmless Live Amphibians" on the box. Nothing huge, but usually in a sharpie near the address label. I also include a receipt, the sale thread, species identification, and my contact information on top of the insulated styro box...so if it is opened for some reason, they have all the information needed right on top. I also ship SYR and have had no issues.

Better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

Im not going to read through the entire thread, but after reading your initial post, just do regular fedex overnight. Not even SYR. SYR is 70 bux. Regular over night fedex is 43 bux. Print your own label from home, its always cheaper as well. I ship almost exclusively with USPS and have no issues at all. Even when my box took two days once, frogs were all ok. With current temps i use two heat packs and two phase panels. Shipping usps is like 27 bux. If anyone ever asks, DONT say dart frogs!! Say "tropical" frogs. Its less threatening. And thus less questions. Or say its frickin coffee cups. Its none of their business....


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> And I need to note for all of those who suggest not labeling the box as to the correct contents that you are playing Russian Roulette with it... If something happens and it becomes known that your box doesn't say on the outside at the very least, "Live Harmless Wildlife", you are in violation of the Lacey Act and can be prosecuted under the labeling clause.... The fines are not incosiderable and you will end up with a label of being an animal smuggler...a scrutiny that may be very uncomfortable to deal with over time....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


As someone else mentioned, all pro/SYR includes many conveniences including a label informing the FEDEX employees to contact the live animal help desk if they have any questions, with additional indication that the shipment includes reptiles/amphibians. Is this enough?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

kgb said:


> Im not going to read through the entire thread, but after reading your initial post, just do regular fedex overnight. Not even SYR. SYR is 70 bux. Regular over night fedex is 43 bux. Print your own label from home, its always cheaper as well. I ship almost exclusively with USPS and have no issues at all. Even when my box took two days once, frogs were all ok. With current temps i use two heat packs and two phase panels. Shipping usps is like 27 bux. If anyone ever asks, DONT say dart frogs!! Say "tropical" frogs. Its less threatening. And thus less questions. Or say its frickin coffee cups. Its none of their business....


How is it not their business? Their business is shipping and you wish to use their services. By definition, it is their business.


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> How is it not their business? Their business is shipping and you wish to use their services. By definition, it is their business.



The business is shipping, correct. Not contents. Tell them its a poison dart frog and see how fast they plan on shipping.


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

kgb said:


> Im not going to read through the entire thread, but after reading your initial post, just do regular fedex overnight. Not even SYR. SYR is 70 bux. Regular over night fedex is 43 bux. Print your own label from home, its always cheaper as well. I ship almost exclusively with USPS and have no issues at all. Even when my box took two days once, frogs were all ok. With current temps i use two heat packs and two phase panels. Shipping usps is like 27 bux. If anyone ever asks, DONT say dart frogs!! Say "tropical" frogs. Its less threatening. And thus less questions. Or say its frickin coffee cups. Its none of their business....


Some of us use SYR for the insurance, which is nice if you are shipping valuable animals. SYR $70, FEDEX overnight $43 all other things consistent doesn't sound right, unless you have a great discount with FEDEX, like a 35-45% discount, which they are not giving out to just anyone...I agree there is a price difference, but I haven't found it to be that much more and SYR will give you a further discount if you ship often...

USPS, wow, I wouldn't even dare ship any animals with them...once was enough. They seem to vary region to region but there's a lot of horror stories about them, be careful using them!


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

kgb said:


> Im not going to read through the entire thread, but after reading your initial post, just do regular fedex overnight. Not even SYR. SYR is 70 bux. Regular over night fedex is 43 bux. Print your own label from home, its always cheaper as well. I ship almost exclusively with USPS and have no issues at all. Even when my box took two days once, frogs were all ok. With current temps i use two heat packs and two phase panels. Shipping usps is like 27 bux. If anyone ever asks, DONT say dart frogs!! Say "tropical" frogs. Its less threatening. And thus less questions. Or say its frickin coffee cups. Its none of their business....


Read the entire thread. If you're shipping frogs you should know the law. What you're stating above *is* a violation of the Lacey Act. It *is* a violation of Federal Law!!!
Obviously I don't mean labeling it frogs, because that's what you should do. I mean labeling it coffee cups.


----------



## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

Rusty you beat me to it. Also it is a violation of Dendroboard policy.
Buddy

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

cbreon said:


> USPS, wow, I wouldn't even dare ship any animals with them...once was enough. They seem to vary region to region but there's a lot of horror stories about them, be careful using them!


I use usps all the time and have yet to have any real issue. The ONE time I used fedex, it took 6 friggin days.


----------



## DonLisk (Jan 25, 2011)

MikeM670 said:


> *Boy you can say that phrase again!*
> 
> 
> Here is a update to my original post. Opened a account with SYR and then I contacted them and spoke first with I think it was Brad and then with Andy. I told them what happen. Andy walked me through the shipping issues and said to contact him if FedEx would still not accept the package. So armed with a new shipping label I heading back to the same FedEx location. Low and behold the same guy was still behind the counter! Told him I was now shipping under SYR services. He again balked and went into the back room and returned with a few handouts on why they would not ship the frogs.
> ...



Mike, Thank you so much for all your troubles getting these shipped out. Can't wait to receive them in the morning.

I'll use SYR for the return shipment


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

cbreon said:


> As someone else mentioned, all pro/SYR includes many conveniences including a label informing the FEDEX employees to contact the live animal help desk if they have any questions, with additional indication that the shipment includes reptiles/amphibians. Is this enough?


It helps. In most cases (including the OP's situation) both the live animal help desk and SYR can facilitate the cooperation of FedEx employees. Ultimately though, and I found this out the hard way, any individual FedEx facility can decide that they don't deal with live animals. At that point you have to find another FedEx facility. FedEx World Shipping Centers will always accept SYR packages.



epiphytes etc. said:


> I use usps all the time and have yet to have any real issue. The ONE time I used fedex, it took 6 friggin days.


Search any shipper and you will find horror stories. It's really a case of trying to determine the least worst. I've used a lot of different shipping companies over the years and I currently use SYR because their process tends to penalize you the least for adhering to the requirements of the Lacy Act. IME the only advantage USPS has at all is that it is cheaper. Factor in the insurance SYR offers on any decent sized purchase and after any late arrival you start to redefine "cheaper".


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Buddysfrogs said:


> Rusty you beat me to it. Also it is a violation of Dendroboard policy.
> Buddy
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


That post made me chuckle


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

kgb said:


> The business is shipping, correct. Not contents.


Sorry but that's just stupid. That's the kind of thought process that allows terrorists to ship whatever they want.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

epiphytes etc. said:


> I use usps all the time and have yet to have any real issue. The ONE time I used fedex, it took 6 friggin days.


While I had USPS lose a package of A. hoogmoedii for seven days... I also had them lose the cover for my kindle for three months..... It arrived 2 and half months after the replacement... tracking showed it going into the Philadelphia USPS hub and never emerging..... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

jacobi said:


> Sorry but that's just stupid. That's the kind of thought process that allows terrorists to ship whatever they want.



LOL..... ok


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Read the entire thread. If you're shipping frogs you should know the law. What you're stating above *is* a violation of the Lacey Act. It *is* a violation of Federal Law!!!
> Obviously I don't mean labeling it frogs, because that's what you should do. I mean labeling it coffee cups.


it was a figure of speech, obviously


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

What's sad is that most people probably don't know the law.

And that many of the people who do know the law don't care.

They think laws are for those other people....


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

kgb said:


> it was a figure of speech, obviously


Obviously, we all know it was a figure of speech. The intent behind it was just as obviously, not a figure of speech. It is a Federal law, it could land you in jail, and you are saying that it's probably best to break that law. YOU can do whatever you want, but instructing others to break Federal laws, on a public board, is...just think about it.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

How many people here openly break the law regarding the Lacey Act? It could affect all of us. Such as what it FedEx or other shippers refuse to take any live animals shipments as a result? Label your boxes properly people. 
Since this picture was taken, I have started to write the pictured statement in much smaller letters. In ball point pen instead of a big sharpie. It's still legal, just not as obvious.


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

The Lacey Act does not say you must label what is in the package. It states penalties for falsifying documents for the purpose of trafficking or possessing illegal species. Thus, I stand behind my previous comment. As long as you are not transporting a restricted species, or illegally acquire species, you're in no risk of being tossed into jail as an "animal smuggler". When you order a culture of fruit flies is the box labeled "live fruit flies" on the outside? Heck no, because it's not a violation of any kind. When you ship something live, simply label the outside of the package vaguely. Like "live animal", "live frog", "live fish", "perishable" and the like would all suffice. As long as you're not shipping a restricted or illegal species and trying to pass it off as otherwise you're not going to jail. 

"These sections generally prohibit certain acts involving wildlife, fish, or plants that have been taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of a federal, state, tribal, or foreign law or regulation"

When read together with the "attempt" provision of section 3372(a)(4), sections 3372(a)(1) and (a)(2) generally make it unlawful to:

- import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase

- wildlife, fish, or plants that have been

- taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of a

- state, federal, foreign, or tribal law or regulation.

"Thus, a Lacey Act trafficking charge requires proof of both an underlying or "predicate" violation of some law, as well as proof of an "overlying" violation of the Lacey Act's list of prohibited acts. The underlying violation occurs when someone illegally takes, possesses, transports, or sells the wildlife, fish, or plant. The Lacey Act violation does not occur until the defendant commits or attempts to commit an import, export, transport, sale, receipt, acquisition, or purchase of the tainted animal or plant."


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

The Lacey Act does not apply to legally taken wildlife that is shipped through a state that prohibits the possession of the wildlife, as long as the wildlife is destined for a location where its possession is legal. [FN258] This exception is narrow and does not, for example, provide a defense where the wildlife has been unlawfully killed in one state and shipped to a second state that does not prohibit its possession. [FN259]

Some of you guys are making something out of nothing.


----------



## kgb (Aug 2, 2011)

TonyB. said:


> The Lacey Act does not say you must label what is in the package. It states penalties for falsifying documents for the purpose of trafficking or possessing illegal species. Thus, I stand behind my previous comment. As long as you are not transporting a restricted species, or illegally acquire species, you're in no risk of being tossed into jail as an "animal smuggler". When you order a culture of fruit flies is the box labeled "live fruit flies" on the outside? Heck no, because it's not a violation of any kind. When you ship something live, simply label the outside of the package vaguely. Like "live animal", "live frog", "live fish", "perishable" and the like would all suffice. As long as you're not shipping a restricted or illegal species and trying to pass it off as otherwise you're not going to jail.
> 
> "These sections generally prohibit certain acts involving wildlife, fish, or plants that have been taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of a federal, state, tribal, or foreign law or regulation"
> 
> ...



Did you all read that? Maybe YOU guys dont know the law... stop pointing fingers, jesus. I first off said that I personally say "tropical frogs", not poison dart frogs. The coffee cup reference was merely a figure of speech regarding what the previous post suggests. You are not breaking any laws unless the contents are indeed breaking any laws. Stay vague my friends.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

USFWS has already made clear in the past to me personally that all packages must state what is in there (using scientific name), be packed accordingly, etc. I label and ship all packages according to IATA guidelines.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

SYR was nice enough to do the work for you and look up the federal regulations.

http://allproshipping.cachefly.net/50CFR14102008.pdf

http://allproshipping.cachefly.net/lacey.pdf

I am sure I could get the info direct from the gov websites as well, but that should lead you towards the correct info. 

Ed is correct...

There are some other parts on labeling (it's not an easy doc to navigate), but here is one.
"§ 14.81
Marking requirement.
Except as otherwise provided in this subpart, no person may import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife (including shellfish and fishery products) unless he/she marks each container or package conspicuously on the outside with both the name and address of the shipper and consignee. An accurate and legible list of its contents by species scientific name and the number of each species and whether or not the listed species are venomous must accompany the entire shipment.
[61 FR 31870, June 21, 1996]"


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Alternatives and exceptions to the marking requirement.
(a) The requirements of § 14.81 may be met by complying with one of the following alternatives to the marking requirement:
(1) (i) *Conspicuously marking the outside of each container or package containing fish or wildlife with the word “fish” or “wildlife” as appropriate for its contents, or with the common name of its contents by species, and*
*(ii) Including an invoice, packing list, bill of lading, or similar document to accompany the shipment which accurately states the name and address of the shipper and consignee, states the total number of packages or containers in the shipment, and for each species in the shipment specifies:
(A) The common name that identifies the species (examples include: Chinook (or king) salmon; bluefin tuna; and whitetail deer) and whether or not the listed species is venomous; and
(B) The number of that species (or other appropriate measure of quantity such as gross or net weight).
The invoice, packing list, bill of lading, or equivalent document must be securely attached to the outside of one container or package in the shipment or otherwise physically accompany the shipment in a manner which makes it readily accessible for inspection; or*
(2) Affixing the shipper's wildlife import/export license number preceded by the three letters “FWS” on the outside of each container or package containing fish or wildlife, if the shipper has valid wildlife import/export license issued under authority of 50 CFR part 14. For each shipment marked in accordance with this paragraph, the records maintained under § 14.93(c) must include a copy of the invoice, packing list, bill of lading, or other similar document that accurately states the information required by paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of this section.
(3) In the case of subcontainers or packages within a larger packing container, only the outermost container must be marked in accordance with this section. Except, that for live fish or wildlife that are packed in subcontainers within a larger packing container, if the subcontainers are numbered or labeled, the packing list, invoice, bill or lading, or other similar document, must reflect that number or label. However, each subcontainer containing a venomous species must be clearly marked as venomous.
(4) A conveyance (truck, plane, boat, etc.) is not considered a container for purposes of requiring specific marking of the conveyance itself, provided that:
(i) The fish or wildlife within the conveyance is carried loosely or is readily identifiable, and is accompanied by the document required by paragraph (a)(1)(ii) of this section, or
(ii) The fish or wildlife is otherwise packaged and marked in accordance with this subpart.
(b) The requirements of § 14.81 do not apply to containers or packages containing—
(1) Fox, nutria, rabbit, mink, chinchilla, marten, fisher, muskrat, and karakul that have been bred and born in captivity, or their products, if a signed statement certifying that the animals were bred and born in captivity accompanies the shipping documents;
(2) Fish or shellfish contained in retail consumer packages labeled pursuant to the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, 21 U.S.C. 301 et seq.; or
(3) Fish or shellfish that are landed by, and offloaded from, a fishing vessel (whether or not the catch has been carried by the fishing vessel interstate), as long as the fish or shellfish remain at the place where first offloaded.
(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 1018-0022)
[52 FR 45341, Nov. 27, 1987, as amended at 61 FR 31871, June 21, 1996]


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

The requirements of § 14.81 may be met by complying with one of the following alternatives to the marking requirement......

(1) (i) Conspicuously marking the outside of each container or package containing fish or wildlife with the word “fish” or “wildlife” as appropriate for its contents

So once again, a vague label is not going to land you in prison as an "animal smuggler" and pay a $10,000 fine.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

You've only read one small part of it. Not to mention all the other requirements you have to meet. 

Likely you won't get charged a fine or labeled a smuggler, but.....best case, you can't ship through those companies anymore. Worst case, you're wrong. I've known enough people to find themselves in court of Lacey Act violations, and a few of them with shipping.

By law, you have to have on the outside or easily accessible, a list of the species contained in the box. You don't think so, ask USFWS about it. I ship enough national and internationally to know exactly what is required.  



TonyB. said:


> The requirements of § 14.81 may be met by complying with one of the following alternatives to the marking requirement......
> 
> (1) (i) Conspicuously marking the outside of each container or package containing fish or wildlife with the word “fish” or “wildlife” as appropriate for its contents
> 
> So once again, a vague label is not going to land you in prison as an "animal smuggler" and pay a $10,000 fine.


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Reading back through the thread it appears that we are all in agreement after all that the box has to be labeled in some way like "live frogs", "live wildlife" etc. I just got excited when somebody went off the deep end and said you can go to jail for smuggling.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony,



TonyB. said:


> The Lacey Act does not say you must label what is in the package.


I would strongly suggest actually reading the act then..... since you somehow totally missed this part (taken directly oddly enough from http://www.fws.gov/le/USStatutes/Lacey.pdf) 


> *b)​*​Marking offenses
> It is unlawful for any person to import, export, or transport in interstate commerce any container or package containing any fish or wildlife unless the container or package has previously been plainly marked, labeled, or tagged in accordance with the regulations issued pursuant to paragraph (2) of section 3376(a) of this title. ​


You may also want to read http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/articles/springsteen_lacey.pdf

since it has this nice clarification


> Further, false labeling of wildlife transported in interstate commerce is also criminalized, regardless of intent. If the products have a market value of less than $350, false labeling is a 1 year/$100,000 misdemeanor, but if the value is greater than $350, the offender may be charged with another 5 year/$250,000 felony.


 
 



TonyB. said:


> It states penalties for falsifying documents for the purpose of trafficking or possessing illegal species.


This is in addition to the mismarking issues... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

TonyB. said:


> The Lacey Act does not say you must label what is in the package. It states penalties for falsifying documents for the purpose of trafficking or possessing illegal species. Thus, I stand behind my previous comment. As long as you are not transporting a restricted species, or illegally acquire species, you're in no risk of being tossed into jail as an "animal smuggler". When you order a culture of fruit flies is the box labeled "live fruit flies" on the outside? Heck no, because it's not a violation of any kind. When you ship something live, simply label the outside of the package vaguely. Like "live animal", "live frog", "live fish", "perishable" and the like would all suffice. As long as you're not shipping a restricted or illegal species and trying to pass it off as otherwise you're not going to jail.
> 
> "These sections generally prohibit certain acts involving wildlife, fish, or plants that have been taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of a federal, state, tribal, or foreign law or regulation"
> 
> ...


Ughhh. Again, wrong. Stop posting false and misleading information.

Yes the Lacey Act *DOES* state that the contents must be labeled. Thank you BluePumilio for posting the *CORRECT* information.

I don't know if you're intentionally overlooking the context of what you're posting or if you just don't comprehend what is in quotes. Yes, that is PART of what the Lacey act applies to, but is absolutely NOT the limit to the extent of the law. The lacey act is not just limited to TRAFFICING charges, but also compliance with all aspects of the law, including the requirement that you label the contents of the package.

I really can't tell if you're just intentionally posting misleading information at this point or if you really are just ignorant of the facts. Its been posted now here, plain as day the exact text of the Lacey Act that proves what you're stating is absolutely false. At this point you've lost all credibilty. Please just stop posting.


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

I'll be sure to login to DB from prison and let you know how it works out


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Likely you won't get charged a fine or labeled a smuggler, but.....best case, you can't ship through those companies anymore. Worst case, you're wrong. I've known enough people to find themselves in court of Lacey Act violations, and a few of them with shipping.


A friend of mine shipped newts without lableing the package, it leaked in transit and was opened... he was fined, put on probation, and labled as a smuggler.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

TonyB. said:


> Reading back through the thread it appears that we are all in agreement after all that the box has to be labeled in some way like "live frogs", "live wildlife" etc. I just got excited when somebody went off the deep end and said you can go to jail for smuggling.


Uhm, no, nobody who understands the Lacey Act would agree with that at all. Those labels are insufficient. It *MUST BE LABELED WITH THE CONTENTS BY SPECIES*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

TonyB. said:


> I'll be sure to login to DB from prison and let you know how it works out


Nice strawman.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TonyB. said:


> I'll be sure to login to DB from prison and let you know how it works out


It's not a good thing to have to be several people attempt to correct you since if there is ever an issue, outside of the marking offense, the difference between getting in a little trouble or a lot of trouble is going to be how aware you are of the regs... Posting information that gives the appearence of contradicting the law is never a good thing particularly when this forum probably does get visited and an internet search can always pull it up.... 

Ed


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I really can't tell if you're just intentionally posting misleading information at this point or if you really are just ignorant of the facts.


Neither, I just mispoke when I typed that reply. I didn't mean to say, "The lacey act states that you must label what's in the package". Poor word choice on my part. I didn't want to go back and edit the post. What I meant to say there was that you dont have to be extremely specific as to the contents. A simple "live amphibians", "live fish", etc. would suffice.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

TonyB. said:


> Neither, I just mispoke when I typed that reply. I didn't mean to say, "The lacey act states that you must label what's in the package". Poor word choice on my part. I didn't want to go back and edit the post. What I meant to say there was that you dont have to be extremely specific as to the contents. A simple "live amphibians", "live fish", etc. would suffice.


No, it absolutely will not. Go back and read the links provided.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

TonyB. said:


> Neither, I just mispoke when I typed that reply. I didn't mean to say, "The lacey act states that you must label what's in the package". Poor word choice on my part. I didn't want to go back and edit the post. What I meant to say there was that you dont have to be extremely specific as to the contents. A simple "live amphibians", "live fish", etc. would suffice.


Is that your final answer? Because thats wrong, WRONG, *WRONG*. Those simple labels *ARE NOT* sufficent.

I'm sorry if I'm being excessively vehement on this point, but this really needs clarification. If just one new shipper is prevented from making a mistake based on the incorrect information you've posted and suggested continuously throughout this thread, then it is worth it.


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Perhaps instead of getting into all the possibilities of what could happen if you catch a USFW agent on a full moon, during high tide in a leap year, anyone shipping can just do two simple things. (1)State on the outside of the box that the shipment includes live animals. As mentioned it can be small but to be safe you should state it. (2) include a packing list simply stating the contents: i.e. 3 oophaga pumilio 'el dorado' or whatever it may be... 

I know I will be updating the way I ship. I think this is one of those things that its just better safe than sorry.... By adhering to these rules we make it better for everyone, and ultimately the animals...


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

To clarify, and make sure I got everything you're supposed to be doing:

Anyone shipping can just do two simple things. (1)State on the outside of the box that the shipment includes live animals. As mentioned it can be small but to be safe you should state it. (2) include a packing list simply stating the contents: i.e. 3 oophaga pumilio 'el dorado' or whatever it may be...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> To clarify, and make sure I got everything you're supposed to be doing:
> 
> Anyone shipping can just do two simple things. (1)State on the outside of the box that the shipment includes live animals. As mentioned it can be small but to be safe you should state it. (2) include a packing list simply stating the contents: i.e. 3 oophaga pumilio 'el dorado' or whatever it may be...


At the minimum, you are showing what is called due diligence in attempting to comply. Institutions generally in addition to live harmless wildlife tend to also include a list on the outside of the shipping container to ensure compliance. 

At some prior point I thought I had posted a link describing various ways to break the marking clause but I can't dig it up now. 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

You can also include an invoice that can be easily accessed. It has to state everything in there. For ease it is often on a sticker, but sometimes in pouches that are attached.



Ed said:


> In the ten years I worked in the pet trade, every box of fish whether it originated in Florida or in Indonesia or elsewhere had in addition to live fish, a small sticker listing the species in the box..... During part of that time, I worked at what was the largest pet store in the US....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

Hi Everyone! 

I am the Original Poster and at the time was just extremely frustrated at how my first attempt at it was going. After posting here I received some very good information on using Ship Your Reptiles. I did register with them, contacted them and spoke with Andy. He walked me through dealing with FedEx and to contact him if there were still problems. There were and he resolved it to my satisfaction. 

What I did not want to happen was my post turning into a how not to Properly Ship! I see that happening and that is not a good thing. May I recommend to the Forum Admin they setup a section on the proper way to ship to include:


Proper Packaging Material
How to use Phase Material
Step by Step How to pack the box
Proper Labeling to Meet Lacy Requirements

Anything else that might be appropriate for the list...

Reading many of the posts its clear that we need to follow proper shipping regulations and laws and its clear that many are concerned about loosing the privilege of doing this. So why not provide a approved method right here for people to reference as needed!

Just my two cents worth!


----------



## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Can I have some clarification (as I'm sure we've all been reading about this)

It seems to me that as long as the names of the shipper and the receiver are marked on the outside of the box...And the items being shipped are *accurately* listed in a type of packing slip on the box...Then it's okay.

And the marking it "wildlife" and whatnot is an alternative to the above, because it says the requirement *may* be met by...

I tried reading the link Ed put up, but when I get to 3376 after reading the marking offenses I don't see any info about it.

So...Is the marking what inside not mandatory as long as there's a packing slip and visible names of shipper and receiver.

Thanks, not tryin to stir it up...I swear!

Tommy


This is in response to what was posted about 18.41


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow, another well intentioned thread turned into a three ring circus in less than 24 hours. Amazing! However, I'd love to add my two cents. I've worked in the tropical fish/reptile/amphibian "industry" since I was a teen. I've been employed by a 1/2 dozen different reptile stores, pet stores and tropical fish stores. I've done shipping and recieving for most of them. I also worked for Pro Exotics (which IS Ship Your Reptiles) a number of years ago. I have opened hundred of boxes of tropical fish, tarantulas, feeder goldfish, corals, live rock, snakes, geckos, crickets, etc. I don't recall ever seeing a single box with an exterior listing of its contents....ever. Yes...."Contains live Animals" or "Live Tropical fish", but nothing more. And these were shipments from soem of the largest importers, exporters, and jobbers in the country. BUT, there was ALWAYS a packing list, often in a protected plastic slip on the exterior of the box, sometimes inside, sometimes both. I think what several people here are taking offense at, is the loss of privacy here. And I share that view. I think federal law has become intrusive and over-burdensome on folks who obey the law. Someone shipping Mysteriosus, or Castaneoticus is not going to identify them in the slightest. These laws and regulations do little to lessen smuggling. I've shipped a few boxes of frogs over the years, and recieved many more, not a one in compliance with the law. But I also wasnt aware at that time the extent of what was required. It dosnt take alot of effort to label the exterior as containing live harmless wildlife, and including a SECURE packing list inside or outside. I may nto agree with it, but its easy enough to comply with to avoid the hassle of dealing with Uncle Sam. Whew....feel like I wrote a book!


----------



## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Ed said:


> A friend of mine shipped newts without lableing the package, it leaked in transit and was opened... he was fined, put on probation, and labled as a smuggler....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I would definitely say it is a crap shoot in terms of the response from authorities. I have known a handful of people caught shipping illegally. All except one was let off with a warning including a guy who was shipping Sicarius spiders. The guy who was busted was also brown-boxing from other countries. 

It is very discretionary much of the time so why risk it? I worked in law enforcement for a few years. Many laws are "mandatory arrest" however, many times they end without an arrest.

It really isn't worth the risk because you may get nothing, or you may get everything. Attempt to comply is definitely mitigating so I would seriously encourage people to follow the "small, clean print" advice given by others.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I've removed many posts. I may remove more.

I'm going to issue a few warnings on this one - mainly about staying on topic and staying respectful.

Posts moving forward are going to be scrutinized very carefully - please stay on topic, and stay respectful.

And yeah - pay attention to the User Agreement also.

s


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

As with many topics here on DB, we've been down this road before.

Shawn (Sports Doc) has taken the time previously to write up an extensive how to on *Shipping* (and it *does* reference the Lacey Act).

Enjoy.

s


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Not totally sure if we can link to other forums, but some people might like to read this short thread if they doubt they will not get in trouble for not packing and labeling a shipment correctly. They are watching...

Received Shipment inspected by Fish & Wildlife?? - FaunaClassifieds


----------



## MikeM670 (Feb 3, 2011)

Yes the topic of "Properly Shipping" is way to important to have generated into some of the arguments here. We owe it not only to ourselves but others to "Do the Right Thing!". It's really not that hard. As one of the posters in the linked thread indicated they were "Receiving the shipment" and was issued a warning letter after the shipment was checked. I sure the heck don't want to get another person in trouble!


----------



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

That link does not prove anything. Was his box that was opened labeled "properly"? Or was it labeled vaguely, "live animals" for example? Was there documentation inside the box with the latin name? We'll never know the details of that example so it's not fair to bring it into this conversation.

It was likely inspected by USFWS, found to not contain any illegal, poached or otherwise tainted animal and was allowed to continue it's journey. 

It all boils down to labeling the box and don't ship king cobras or elephant tusks and you're not going to be put into jail.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

It shows they do open it to inspect. That one person did not have it correctly labeled and they got a warning. Which, I've dealt plenty with USFWS and sometimes you get the nice guys who give warnings and then you get those who want to make a nice example of you. 

Either way, why are you arguing against this? Just do things correctly and there is nothing to worry about.




TonyB. said:


> That link does not prove anything. Was his box that was opened labeled "properly"? Or was it labeled vaguely, "live animals" for example? Was there documentation inside the box with the latin name? We'll never know the details of that example so it's not fair to bring it into this conversation.
> 
> It was likely inspected by USFWS, found to not contain any illegal, poached or otherwise tainted animal and was allowed to continue it's journey.
> 
> It all boils down to labeling the box and don't ship king cobras or elephant tusks and you're not going to be put into jail.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd appreciate if we'd just let this go.

If you do not agree with doing things as stated in our link - go your own way.

Personally, I think it's important to follow the regulations, whether it seems applicable or not.

Why chance it?

s


----------

