# clay soil to control parasites?



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Can the introduction of microfauna plus the use of clay soils suppress parasitic nemetodes like rhabdias? 

Even if we treat our frogs for parasites before we put them in the tank, there's a good possibility they could contract something later-- and then we would have to take down the whole vivarium and stress the frogs.

I don't feel safe continuously dusting their food with dewormer either.

Any thoughts? Controlling parasites seems to be one of the biggest unanswered problems that is up for debate.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Can the introduction of microfauna plus the use of clay soils suppress parasitic nemetodes like rhabdias?


I like your way of thinking. Maybe this is a stupid question, but why would clay soils suppress parasitic nemetodes?


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I think (without looking into it) his theory comes from the fact that part of the life cycle of nematodes is shedding of eggs into the soil that develop into an infective larva which then reinfect the frogs. If one were to treat with panacur and have a soil that the worms can't grow in, they would theoretically not survive outside of the feces to reinfect. So, if you had a substrate that didn't allow for the larva to grow, and you treated for panacur, there should be no infective larva outside of old feces which would eventually not be suitable for nematode development.

If this is what Rain_Frog is talking about, the idea sounds good but I think it's asking for a lot. The problem is the larva develop in the stool as well as the soil. Though some substrates might make it harder for parasitic worms to develop, old feces will be around for a while due to the viv being a moist warm environment. Larva developing in the feces will be infective for 4+ weeks (a full panacur treatment). Some frogs will deposit quite a large ammount of feces that won't readily decompose for a while (multipule frogs and it just becomes that much more of a headache). 

This is all off the top of my head without really looking into it. However, I think the best situation is to clean the frogs beforehand and create a clean environment (within reason) to begin with.

-Nish


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I never thought about that, Nish. I was referring to the introduction of predatory nemetodes and microfauna that would keep parasites in balance in a vivarium, like a natural system. The idea behind clay soils is to create better living conditions for microfauna. Of course, you would have to introduce microfauna from your yard (and risk chytrid) to further develop a microfauna food chain.

I asked a similar post long time ago, and Brent Brock brought to our attention that soils that initially have an imbalance of plant parasites eventually become balanced with age. I glanced at a similar article recently.

While I agree with cleaning frogs first, Ed Kowalski says that frogs may test positive months to years later, and parasites do not always show up in stool samples. Sensitive frog species that have been left alone in a vivarium for years may not take well to drastic environmental changes.

The only way to sterilize a vivarium is to tear it down. Ed also showed us literature that says that a few parasites _may _be mutualistic (pinworms in bullfrogs). I fear that overuse of dewormer could cause gut flora imbalances. I'm not saying that testing and treatment shouldn't be performed, but our current husbandry approaches to disease treatment seem like short term fixes for a problem.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Oh, I see. I wasn't thinking of it that way.

The main problem with your idea, I would guess, would be the problem with all our vivs. They're tiny compared the the area a frog lives in the wild. They accumulate poop rapidly. I have no clue as to the nature of microfauna that would be predatory towards frog parasites, but I get the idea that it'd need to be a pretty large viv for an average ammount of frogs. Also, the soil would need to be well cultured with many different things to contain the type of circular system that would allow them to exist. I'm interested in finding out what some people think.

-Nish


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