# Strange Unexplained Coloration/Loss ... HELP PLS! (w/ pics)



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Hello Everyone ... 

Over the past 4 weeks, Ive noticed alot of strange things going on in my dart frog tank. 4 weeks ago, I had an adult cobalt that ive had for a yr now, just suddenly die w/o any signs of illness whatsoever. Then about 3 weeks ago, i saw that my 2 juvi Azureus suddenly change from light blue to dark blue seemingly overnight. Also, ive noticed things in the tank like little red/white tiny worms, (which Josh @ joshsfrogs said is nothing to be concerned about), a snail, and large mosquitoes/gnats in tank, and moss suddenly turning brown. (all of this happened within a week). i have a glass top so i do not know how these things got into the tank.

Well now this ... over the past week, my 3 cobalts (1 adult, 2 juvi ... i ve had the adult for a yr, and the juvis about 4mo) have slowly been turning white (not fungus, but actual color loss) on the tops of their heads, and the black spots on their back appear to look "smeared". 
I sent pics to Josh @ joshsfrogs and he said he has no idea as to what it was, that hes never seen it before but that it did not appear to look "normal". He suggested that i contact Dr.Fry, which i have, but i am still awaiting a response. 

Have any of you seen this before? What could cause it?
(maybe the standing water from my waterfall? calcium deficiency? i have no clue)
If u look at the pics, what appears to be light reflection is actually where the frogs have lost their color and it turned white, and also look at the "smearing" on their back/head where the black is

If anyone has any ideas, pls email me: [email protected]


The frogs appear to be normal, are still all active and eating fine. Tank is 50gal ... Temp in tank is 78F, and humidity is 99%.

Pic 1 is Adult M Cobalt, Pics 2&3 is the 2 Juvis ... also 1 of the Juvi Azureus has the same white blotch on top of his head, but i could not get a pic of him. The other Az appears to be fine aside from his sudden change to a darker color and i have included pic showing his darker (almost black) color change, and a pic of my tank.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

How often do you feed/dust, and what supplements do you use?
What type of water are you using for your water feature?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I feed once to twice daily. I use Reptolife Plus as a supplement, but i dont dust flys with it. I add it into the fly medium, bc whenever i dusted my flys before, i would always end up getting the powder into my tank when dumping the flies in, and it would kill my moss. Ive been doing the "gutload" for about 7-8mo now ... but either way, if that was the case, the adult dart wouldve shown these signs a long time ago, not all 4 showing the same signs at once.
The water i use is just the condensation in the tank ... i have the water pump in the back left corner, and the waterfall is in the back right corner, and the water sits in front of the waterfall area. I siphon excess water out once or twice a month, but i dont actually add more water in other than what accumulates over time from weekly (sometimes twice a week) mistings.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Trust me when I say you're supplementing all wrong, "gutloading" the flies doesn't work like you're thinking. I don't know how to find them, but there are a few great threads about it. Ed will probably chime in on that. Supplements are one of the most important parts of this hobby so it is pretty important to stick with at least the basics. You have to dust your flies.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

FF can't be gutloaded due to size and metabolism. You need to dust the flies. If you're worried about moss, clear a spot in the tank and dump flies on that

Also how wet is your substrate? from the pics it looks pretty wet


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Josh is correct,

You cannot gut load fruit flies with calcium, and some of the other nutrients. Fruit flies have a metabolism that is exceedingly good at excreting any calcium above thier own optimum so they always are calcium deficient. In addition, if I remember correctly they do not store D3 (and thier metabolism causes rapid turn over of gut contents).. 

This method of gut loading by itself has been shown to not work well at all and that could be one of the problems with your frogs. 

The gnats are probably either fungus gnats, moth flies (which live in stagnent water conditions) or phorid flies. You are going to have to identify them as the last two can be indicators of problems in the tank. 

Free living nematodes/white worms/nemerteans are not uncommon but if they are massing to where they can be seen visually in huge numbers, you may have either a stagnent water layer or your substrate is too wet. 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok, ill go get some supplements today. Like i said previously, i only mist the take once a week usually, sometimes twice, but usually once. The reason it looked wet in the pics is bc the frogs were sitting near the waterfall area of the tank and the fern moss touches the waters edge ( i have a piece of glass under all the moss in the soil seperating the water area from the rest of the tank)

The mosquitoes look like tiny gnats, but eventually they get bigger (they look like a mosquito with big long legs, probably an inch in length when full grown) ... the worms are not in large numbers, ive only seen 5 or 6 of them occasionally crawling on the wood, and its usually in the early morning when the tank lights forst turn on

Other than the dusting of flys tho guys, it still doesnt explain why all of a sudden all 3 cobalts are turning "white" and why the black spots appear to look "smeared" at the same time ... if it was calcium deficiency the adult wouldve shown signs of that a long time ago, well before i purchased the other frogs ...


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

also, i just looked it up on the internet and those big mosquitoes are actually Crane Flies ... how they got into the tank is beyond me, unless they had dormant eggs in the tropical soil i put into the tank when i built it. so i think i have a combination of Crane Flies and fungus gnats ... all of which i assume came from the soil ... is that possible?


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Are they all in the tank together?
Just curious because it has spread to all of your frogs.
Some look really thin, I would quarentine all of them and contact Dr. Frye ASAP.

-Beth


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Get these...









The pic is from Josh's Frogs - Herps Feeders and All The Reptile Supplies You need so you are already familiar with the seller and its good deal. You pretty much can't go wrong with those, they are the standard in the herp hobby.

I would mention the cobalt in the first pic and the azureus both look a little thin to me in the pics. As for the color change some color change can happen normally. Stress and other factors seem to effect color...some days your frogs are just brighter then other days but the amount of change you describe does concern me. What chemical based materials did you use when making the viv? Perhaps some silicone or something didn't cure properly, or the soil you used had pesticides or some type of fertalizer in it...things like that could effect the color of the frogs and their health. 

I'm suprised you are seeing many fungus knats with frogs in the tank, after I add frogs to my tanks I hardly ever see them, they get eatin to fast  

Did you let the tank cycle like an aquarium for a couple of weeks before adding frogs? Vivariums go through a nitrogen cycle, perhaps other chemical cycles also while reaching an equilibrium of sorts...newly added frogs with the accompanying supplements, flies and poop could throw this cycle off as the tank was perhaps not ready to handle the biological load, especially if the tank is over populated.


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Where did you get the moss? The wood? Did you sterilize it? And everything else? 

I would look at that, maybe. Air out your tank a little. 

It looks like a fungal infection of some kind.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I agree, Gabe. The cloudy gray areas on the frogs' skin in the pictures looks wrong. It reminds me of the way fruit looks when it is getting moldy. I would suggest an immediate trip to a vet that deals with exotics.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

i just got home from petsmart ... i purchased both supplements u had pictured. As far as letting the tank sit for a few weeks before adding them ... no i didnt. Which would make sense bc i originally had the 2 adults in a 29gal tank, that was previously used for a cobalt tarantula for a few months so when i got rid of it n made it a dart frog tank, it was already cycled. This new 50gal was setup 4 months ago when i purchased the 4 juvi frogs as froglets. i setup the tank and then put them in it bc i didnt want to put 6 frogs in a 29gal tank. (guess that was a mistake ... i wasnt aware that vivariums needed to cycle like fish tanks).

The driftwood wasnt "sterilized" per sey ... i boiled the smaller pieces, but the large piece in the back was too big to boil it, so i soaked it overnight in water and scrub it down with a brush the next day. I added that around 4th of july.

Yes, i thought it was fungus too BUT its not a growth, its the actual color of their skin, and even still, what would cause the black spots to "smear"?

A vet is not an option bc i cant afford that or the medication, so my question is this ... what are my options now? i have nothing to quarenteen anything, and since the 4 frogs all have it, it wouldnt make sense to seperate them. So i guess ill just have to pray it clears up on its own. 
And IF they all die, then what are my options after that?

No containaments made it into the tank bc i never used anything chemical in the tank. (other than water treatment for misting). The soil was the brick soil that u soak in water, the moss came from TeresasMoss.com, the bromeliads and jewel orchids came from an online store too. The only foreign material is the driftwood that came from lake erie. (im in cleveland). My thought was that it was from the standing water from the waterfall but nobody has suggested that im doing anything wrong with that. I also dont think overcrowding is an issue bc its only 1 adult and 4 juvis in a 50 gallon tank; which gives them more than the suggested 5gal per frog rule (and that pertains to adults). 

So if they die, should i just let the tank settle for a few weeks and reach an equilibrium before adding more frogs?


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

As far as medication goes most of it is not that expensive.
You can quarantine them in sterlite containers from walmart, 2-4 bucks each.
I would see what Dr. Frye says before taking the non-treatment issue.
The medication and quarantine containers will be less expensive then buying new frogs.

Ed can chime in on this but from what I have read crickets can carry quite a few "nasties." 


-Beth


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

Gamble said:


> So if they die, should i just let the tank settle for a few weeks and reach an equilibrium before adding more frogs?


If they die, you take the tank apart, sterlize everything and start over.... Sorry for everything happening to you right now. It's a bummer, but don't let that deter you from the hobby in the case of you losing your frogs.


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Did you treat the wood -soak in bleach and bake?

bacterial dermatitis - may respond to an antibiotic treatment, could be what it is. or fungal infection. Metronidazole at a 5% may work.

With the tank being really damp like that bacteria can be explosive. Airing the tank out sometimes helps with this.

If they die, you need to scrap all of the contents of the tank. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO SAVE ANYTHING Then wash the tank with bleach. May want to do this anyway while you treat them.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I don't know a lot about frog diseases, but it looks like some sort of fungal infection that could be growing on the skin and spreading, hence the look of the "smeared spots" as the infection spreads. Something is definitely wrong with that azureus though, it is very dark and with almost no spots. I would take them out and put them in individual plastic shoeboxes for medication, buying medication from Dr. Frye will most likely be much cheaper than buying new frogs. If something goes wrong and you lose these, you can just add new frogs. You will need to completely strip down and sterilize the tank and get all new plants most likely to be sure that whatever caused this doesn't remain in the viv.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Wow ... i didnt know u could bake the wood! this is a real learning experience for me. If i bleach the wood, wouldnt the bleach still be in the wood after baking? Well, i can always soak the rocks and wood and sterilize them if i redo the tank, but theres no way to save the plants? I would prefer to not have to get rid of the plants if possible considering they cost me quite a bit of $. Throwing out the soil doesnt concern me too much. Thanks for the advice everyone ... i appreciate it.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

BTW ... online, the Metronidazole states that its used for fish to kill ich ... etc ... 

if thats the case, why couldnt i go to a fish store and get ich/bacteria medication? wouldnt it be the same thing?

Once i get the medication, do i just soak the frogs in it daily? How does that work in terms of administering it?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

technically you can, if its in a form you can dispense to a frog and figure out the correct dosage given the concentration used in the product. Much of the stuff used for fish are common drugs some even used in humans like a few antibiotics


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

Do you know what type of wood the drift wood is that you collected? conifers contain harmful terpenes that when contained inside a viv can be lethal to frogs.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Well i would assume a fish would have the same tolerance towards the medication as the frogs would considering theyre the same size ... 

no i dont know what kind of drift wood it is; i got it off the beach in lake erie in the cleveland,OH area


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

you can drill a small portion of it and if the wood pulp is red or has a cedar-esque smell it is most likely a conifer and should be removed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> Well i would assume a fish would have the same tolerance towards the medication as the frogs would considering theyre the same size ...
> 
> no i dont know what kind of drift wood it is; i got it off the beach in lake erie in the cleveland,OH area


Size does not equate weight when calculating out dosages. Most of the medications available in a pet store are either of little value due to large amounts of drug resistence in the relevent pathogen/parasite or contain drugs that are inappropriate for amphibians (copper, formalin to name two off the top of my head..).. 


Crickets are really only a risk if the facility where you get them does not prevent access to the cultures by roaches or other pathogen carrying invertebrates. 

There are a lot if potential sources for the problems with the frogs and they can start with husbandry issues. For example how frequently have you been changing the water from the water fall (removing and adding new)? 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

BTW ... what temp should the oven be on and for how long should i bake the wood for?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Well im going to try the Lamisil treatment as suggested on another post.

I do not feed my frogs crickets ... they eat only fruitflies and springtails.

As stated before, I do not add water for the waterfall ... all the water used by the waterfall is just simply the excess water accumulated from the weekly mistings. ( i only mist my tank once a week bc humidity is always at 99% as per Josh @ joshsfrogs)

I just siphon out any excess water from the waterfall, usually once a month, sometimes twice a month, but as i said, i do not add more water into the tank., but i have considered adding a few aquarium bio-stars to gain more helpful bacteria to help keep the water cleaner


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> Well im going to try the Lamisil treatment as suggested on another post.
> 
> I do not feed my frogs crickets ... they eat only fruitflies and springtails.
> 
> ...


And what kind of water do you mist with? 

If the cage is heavily sealed (and with a supposed 99% humidity it will be) then the frequency of misting is irrelevent. If your misting is supplying the water to the waterfall, then your substrate is probably way to wet. Conditions like those found in your enclosure are conducive towards causing problems with the frogs... 

I'm not sure who recommended the lamisil treatment but that is normally used for chytrid infections and your symptoms don't match up with chytrid... 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Well it sounds to me like im damned if i do, im damned if i dont ... a long time ago i was told not to mist all the time so i got a glass top n cut it back, now im being told that a glass top still isnt good ... so which is it??? 

Sounds to me like some of the people on here have their own methods of doing things and if some1 else doesnt do things the way they do then its wrong BUT yet every PROFESSIONAL BREEDER i talk to does things the same way i do (except put untreated wood in their tank), bc thats where i got my info from on how to run my tank day to day is from them. I dont think I mist too much, i think the problem is that I screwed up with the wood, and now i have to suffer the consequences. Its a learning experience and a mistake i will not make in the future. (dont mean to sound like i have an attitude, im just frustrated) BUT EITHER WAY ... I APPRECIATE EVERYBODYS INPUT and ADVICE. I learned some things from u guys and thats the whole point of these boards is knowledge ... right?

A vet told me that ... either way, it looks like a bacterial infection (according to vet) and that is what lamsil treats ... they also said, vets specializing in exotic pets/amphibians is a rarity so 9x out of 10 treatment is based on a broad spectrum which is the usual operating procedure ... 

besides the way i see it is i have nothing to lose at this point by trying it ... the frogs are going to die regardless if i dont do anything, so i might as well give it a shot.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> so i might as well give it a shot.


E-mail Dr. Frye tomorrow he will get back to you same day (he has for me). Then see what he says. In the meantime separate them and put them in the sterlite boxes with moist paper towels. 
Yes give them a shot, talk to a vet that specializes in frogs and take action.
Yours are hanging in by the way, so see what he says.
I can understand your frustration.
-Beth


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> A vet told me that ... either way, it looks like a bacterial infection (according to vet) and that is what lamsil treats ... they also said, vets specializing in exotic pets/amphibians is a rarity so 9x out of 10 treatment is based on a broad spectrum which is the usual operating procedure ...


I'm going to throw a bs flag here.. Lamasil does not treat bacterial infections (which if you had spoken to a vet, they would have known). Lamasil aka Terbinafine is an over the counter treatment for one type of anuran fungal infection. Which actually makes sense if one knows that Terbinafine is used to normally treat fungal infections of the foot... 

Unless something has changed in recent months, over the counter Lamasil is not the routine treatment for fungal infections for anurans as there are treatments that are more accepted... 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

UPDATE!!!

Well people, for those that are interested, here are some new pics of my new setup. It looks much better! I chose to do a false bottom with eggcrate this time, and I must say I am quite pleased with it.

I added a lot more plants as you will see, got better lights, and also added a fan to circulate the humid air better. 

Unfortunately, after my original post, the adult male passed away 
So I tore my tank down, built a quarenteen tank/container and put the remaining froglets in it. Now, 2 months later they are fat and healthy! Thx for everyones advice ... I aprreciate it. Hope you all like the new tank!


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Schweet man. I read through these last 3 pages thinking "Ah shit!" Glad to hear a couple made it through. I understand the frustration.

May I ask how, what and where did you find treatment for the remaining frogs?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Honestly ... I didn't treat them at all. I purchased a quarenteen tank, some supplements and allowed nature and their own immune system to heal themselves and let Mother Nature take its course. I just fed them lots of food. Mother Nature is a marvelous and wonderful thing.my thoughts were: if a frog gets sick in the wild, there is no medicine, only mother nature so After some thinking, I figured sometimes medicine does more harm then good ... especially bc how can anyone diagnose a problem just thru pictures??? I didn't want to give a broad spectrum treatment to something that wasn't a sure thing ... Some people may disagree with my course of action but obviously what I did was the right thing to do bc it obviously worked. Why stress out an already stressed animal??? Its not about peoples opinions of right and wrong, but about the frogs and I feel that my actions had their best interest at heart.


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