# Is this a Hybrid or a variation?



## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Let me know what you guys think. What does this look like? It's about 4 mo otw


























Sorry, these are the only pictures that I have. Not my frog. I do know what it is and you'll most likely be surprised. 

Maybe I should have put this in the ID forum but I hardly ever go there myself bc it's too far south.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Don't know why. but I can't see the pix. Maybe size????

Edit: There they are


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Edit again:
Trying for a larger shot but there isn't much you can do with a small phone pic.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Looks hybrid to me, unless its an odd patterned summersi or banded leuc.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

hybrid Leuc and Auratus I voted. 
its body doesnt have the angles of a tinc but its definitly not a summersi


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Looks like a leuc


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

its pretty what ever it is


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

I think it's a VERY strange looking Leuc. I might have guessed a cobalt hybrid but the shape doesn't seem right and there's no trace of blue that I can see.

When are you going to tell us?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Looks like a Tinc to me....weird colored Tinc.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It reminds me of the first Alanis type Tincs that came in.

s


markpulawski said:


> Looks like a Tinc to me....weird colored Tinc.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> Looks like a leuc


It has blue toes though


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Auratus and leuc hybrid?


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## Frogman8 (Sep 28, 2010)

I'm about 98% sure that's a leuc/auratus mix , looks like the hybrid my leuc and auratus accidentally produced once.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Looks like an auratus to me. And since it is yellow, that's what makes me think its a auratusXleucomela.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Clearly has D. leucomelas in it, but the narrow banding makes me think about yellow D. truncatus.

Richard.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

Quaz said:


> Let me know what you guys think. What does this look like? It's about 4 mo otw
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you let us in who's frog this is and the orgins??? What did the breeder say it was?


Is this your frog cause I was looking through your album and this persons album has cobalts with leucs in the same viv as you can see below. Cobalt on the leftt and Leuc on the right.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

So what is it?


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

I know what it is..


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

heatfreakk3 said:


> I know what it is..


what is it???


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

picture is not great but i thought i saw some blue on the toes... maybe a alanis? InferAlanis?

if no blue!! then most likely banded leuc (a weird one!)


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

rcteem said:


> what is it???


I can't say yet lol, you guys have to vote


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

heatfreakk3 said:


> I can't say yet lol, you guys have to vote


llllllllaaaaaaammmmmmeeeee


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

LOL... ok, it is from a pair of banded luecs that have never produced anything like this. They are F(freaking in captivity for ever) the line goes from Sndf to Antone the plant guy in fl, then... one of the boards small sponsers who if I wasn't on the phone I'd get the name of, then me, then Betsy from the Tulsa zoo. pretty neat huh?

I should have put truncatus as a guess.

and the viv pic someone brought up from my album was a mixed froglet tank and now is my stndrd luec group viv.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Would be cool to see a better pic of the frogs, want to see how blue the feet are, pretty neat regardless, very cool pattern.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

D. leucomelas and D. truncatus are very closely related, so it makes sense that you might see the lateral banding in the leucs sometime (banded leucs come from the Western part of their range, so not too far from the truncatus range).

It would be great to see some photos of the parents and other cluthc mates if you have them.

Thanks for posting, Richard.



Quaz said:


> LOL... ok, it is from a pair of banded luecs that have never produced anything like this. They are F(freaking in captivity for ever) the line goes from Sndf to Antone the plant guy in fl, then... one of the boards small sponsers who if I wasn't on the phone I'd get the name of, then me, then Betsy from the Tulsa zoo. pretty neat huh?
> 
> I should have put truncatus as a guess.
> 
> and the viv pic someone brought up from my album was a mixed froglet tank and now is my stndrd luec group viv.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

sorry, Sarah Veight is who I got them from. hope I spelled the name right. forest exotics or something like that.

just curious... a lot of us probably have bandeds from the same origin, anything like this ever morph out for you?

i wish I could get better pics but betsy is over an hour away. I just stopped by on my way down from KC to pick up some of this guys siblings. the feet are bluish though. the pics are pretty accurate. maybe I can get her to post some picks


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I traded tads with her in July. I got five leucs, but none look anything like that. A couple of them do have odd patterns, however. I'll try to post a couple some photos.


Quaz said:


> sorry, Sarah Veight is who I got them from. hope I spelled the name right. forest exotics or something like that.
> 
> just curious... a lot of us probably have bandeds from the same origin, anything like this ever morph out for you?
> 
> i wish I could get better pics but betsy is over an hour away. I just stopped by on my way down from KC to pick up some of this guys siblings. the feet are bluish though. the pics are pretty accurate. maybe I can get her to post some picks


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

that frog is Beautiful


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Quaz said:


> LOL... ok, it is from a pair of banded luecs that have never produced anything like this. They are F(freaking in captivity for ever) the line goes from Sndf to Antone the plant guy in fl, then... one of the boards small sponsers who if I wasn't on the phone I'd get the name of, then me, then Betsy from the Tulsa zoo. pretty neat huh?
> 
> I should have put truncatus as a guess.
> 
> and the viv pic someone brought up from my album was a mixed froglet tank and now is my stndrd luec group viv.


Thanks to bad, chris doesn't get to flame you now


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> Thanks to(o) bad, chris doesn't get to flame you now


Don't be too sure....you're betting that all that "info" is correct


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I'm going with a variant of an Alanis Tinc.


That's my guess


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Frogman8 said:


> I'm about 98% sure that's a leuc/auratus mix , looks like the hybrid my leuc and auratus accidentally produced once.



hmmmm.....


Anyways, it does look very cool, but the blue feet doesn't "screem" leuc... just something odd about that...


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Here are photos of two of the froglets I got from Sara as tadpoles. I can't see any blue, but the patterns on these two are interesting. The other three are typical banded leucs.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well in reptiles i know that funky patterns are usually the result of the eggs being kept on the cool side, so i wonder if that was the effect with teh tads being kept cool during metamorphasis. Did you by any chance record any temps?


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Frogman8 said:


> I'm about 98% sure that's a leuc/auratus mix , looks like the hybrid my leuc and auratus accidentally produced once.


If you ask them. They definately did it on purpose.

JimO- those are cool looking frogs. I'll through another picture of one of the ones I got from her last night. I has a bit of conecting band but nothing real different.

I was talking to Josh Willard about the banded luec posted on his sight. It has really thin bands. He said that one was just an extreme varient but not the common look of his off spring.

Hmmmm....

Makes me wonder what other weird offspring some of the other board members frogs have produced.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I don't want to hijack the thread, but regarding the two froglets I posted photos of, we keep our house between 72F and 75F, but the tadpoles were half grown when I got them. In fact, one of the two above already had its hind legs. I don't know what temp Sara kept them at.


Julio said:


> well in reptiles i know that funky patterns are usually the result of the eggs being kept on the cool side, so i wonder if that was the effect with teh tads being kept cool during metamorphasis. Did you by any chance record any temps?


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

LMAO!!!!


Quaz said:


> If you ask them. They definately did it on purpose.


I also loved this quote from your earlier post.


Quaz said:


> They are F(freaking in captivity for ever)...


I laughed so hard I nearly had an aneurism.

Thanks for the laughs...


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

No prob. The laughs are free.

I got one last night where the middle band and the back leg band connect on the sides to make a circle. I'll see if I can't get some pics up.

Edit: Here we go









Ma, sorry, another phone pic.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

So do we get to see any photos of the parents? That would be great!

Thanks, Richard.



Quaz said:


> No prob. The laughs are free.
> 
> I got one last night where the middle band and the back leg band connect on the sides to make a circle. I'll see if I can't get some pics up.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I'll check with Betsy to see if she can take more pics of the froglet and the parents.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Sorry, I didn't realize that the parents weren't yours. No problem.



Quaz said:


> I'll check with Betsy to see if she can take more pics of the froglet and the parents.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Here's an oddball leuc froglet one of my pairs produced:


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Now Zack, we know that is a smuggled histo....





zBrinks said:


> Here's an oddball leuc froglet one of my pairs produced:


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Very interesting looking frog. I could see it being a leuc or green footed leuc with trippy markings and the green being so deep it kinda looks blue.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Thanks pretty cool


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> Now Zack, we know that is a smuggled histo....


Shush! Don't let Richard here that, He may call big brother!


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## bricespice (Jan 4, 2010)

Update:
After some extensive investigation with the owner of this original frog, we are 99% positive this is a COBALT/LEUC hybrid. I have some updated pictures where the frog has blue feet!
Also, here's the investigation and extensive questioning that went down:

-The owner of this frog admits that this pair was not in the same enclosure with the cobalts
-The owner states her frogs deposit eggs onto leaves
-The owner removes the entire leaf from the tank and places it into a container where she "stacks" the eggs on the leaves on top of each other
-All the eggs from cobalt pair and leuc pair go into the same container
-Therefore, there are cobalt eggs stacked on leuc eggs in which she mists the eggs every few days
-This could cause additional sperm from the cobalt eggs to spill off the leaf onto the other leaves (ie: leuc egg).
-We (the owner and I) believe this is what has occurred. The mother is a banded leuc and the father is the cobalt

Here's pictures:

















Note: The owner states she will change her behaviors and place the eggs in seperate containers from now on...


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

is that really possible?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

bussardnr said:


> is that really possible?


yeah, I'm thinking they bred in the tank.......


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

wait, is this about the original frog Quaz posted about, or is this one just similar looking?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Stacking leaves with eggs on top of each other would kill the eggs on the bottom. I understand why someone would want to claim the the hybrid production to be an accident, but this explanation lacks a lot of credibility. It would be better for the owner to separate the tank that they are raising both leucs and cobalt tincs in.

Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bussardnr said:


> is that really possible?


 
Unlikely.. once the jelly hydrates (as shown by swelling) it tends to prevent passage of sperm to the egg. 

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> Unlikely.. once the jelly hydrates (as shown by swelling) it tends to prevent passage of sperm to the egg.
> 
> Ed


exactly.....like a teenager who gets pregnant and claims to have never "done it".....I'm going to say this explanation is impossible to believe......


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## bricespice (Jan 4, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> Stacking leaves with eggs on top of each other would kill the eggs on the bottom. I understand why someone would want to claim the the hybrid production to be an accident, but this explanation lacks a lot of credibility. It would be better for the owner to separate the tank that they are raising both leucs and cobalt tincs in.
> 
> Richard.


Richard-
She states that the cobalt had not been in the same tank with the leuc pair for over 2 months at the time she pulled the eggs.

And yes, this is the same frog Ben (quaz) posted. 

This is a very interesting situation, but the leuc has ONLY come into contact with a male cobalt and other cobalt eggs (when it was also an egg).
She did say that she pulls eggs sometimes immediately so it is possible (even though the smallest chance/likelihood) that the eggs had not been fertilized at this point. 

Anyone have any questions, I can ask Betsy? She is also interested in figuring out an explaination for what has happened as to prevent it from furthering occuring.

THANKS!!!!!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Im still calling serious BS on the "sperm dripping down" explanation. The acrosomal reaction and subsquent cortical reaction of sperm/egg contact happens very quickly, and I 
SERIOUSY DOUBT that the eggs on leaves were pulled basically instantly after fertilization, stacked and then misted to allow the sperm to travel down to the other eggs. If cobalt tinc. sperm had already contacted the cobalt eggs, the acrosomal reaction would have commenced, and once that begins, the lifespan of the sperm is NOT LONG! Not long enough for the sperm to survive sitting in the origial egg mass in the tinc. viv, then being transported out into the egg chamber, then getting misted and tavelling down into the leuc eggs where LEUC SPERM WAS ALREADY PRESENT, triggering the cortical reaction, making eggs impervious to other sperm penetration! 

NOT POSSIBLE!!!! MAJOR BS!!!!


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

You think that's what happened? I don't know...

what would be the chances the azureus that was in the leuc tank got into the mix? How old and was the azureus even in the tank when these eggs were laid. Is the azureus still in the leuc tank? 

Yeah, that was one detail I left out of the rest of this thread. (as the plot thickens.) But I just didn't see how, from the looks of it, it would have be leuc and azureus.

any how... cool display frog... maybe not the best to put in the brood stock.


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

If you look at the other odd leucs from this line I think it could be just an oddity. Has anyone seen the freak cobalts that Patrick Nabors has? I think it is possible for a pair to throw a weirdo froglet which would be 1 in a 1,000.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Immaculate conception! This is the Jesus Frog! He will put an end to deforestation and bravely walk among the frogs with chytrid to save them all!


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

Haaaa leee luu yaaah!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ben Wehr said:


> If you look at the other odd leucs from this line I think it could be just an oddity. Has anyone seen the freak cobalts that Patrick Nabors has? I think it is possible for a pair to throw a weirdo froglet which would be 1 in a 1,000.


I think this is the most probable scenario but since the two were housed together and good records weren't kept the chance of a hybrid can't be ruled out which is a shame (unless someone is going to run the DNA). If it could be ruled out that this was a hybrid then it would a great photo of the sort of variations that can randomly occur. 

Ed


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

I have another from this pair that has a perfect black circle between the mid and ventral bands. It's made buy the mid and ventral bands conecting at the sides. Looks kinda neat. Yeah, it is too bad that the parents weren't alway isolated and the miraculous leaf traversing sperm. Dedicated little tinc. sperm I tell you!


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

This may have been mentioned before, I didn't read the entire thread.
But, IMO; that frogs body shape and posture is nothing like a leuc. Other than the color, it looks exactly like a tinc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think people are putting too much emphasis on posture. If the updated pictures are recent then past of the issue may be due to the fact that the frog is not obese like many pictures of leucomelas that are posted on the forum. Obesity can significantly change the outline of an animal (or person) making that a questionable characteristic without having the frog in hand to measure. 

As for the blue feet... if this was from a line of leucomelas that has greenfooted leucomelas then a simple color variation could produce the blue feet. All it would take is a deficit of yellow chromatophores in the feet and you would get blue feet. 

Alternatively it could be a odd pigmentation pattern of tinctorius.... 

This is why it is probably a odd color variation but due to the lack of good records and the activities that prevented a clear rundown we can't answer what it is with any certainity at all. You could throw darts at the wall with as much accuracy

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> You could throw darts at the wall


I don't like hybrids any more than the next guy, but that's a bit harsh.


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## Vivexx (Nov 28, 2007)

looks like 
D. tinctorius “Alanis” 
D. tinctorius “Giant Orange ” 
D. tinctorius “ Inferalanis ” 

one of those 3 lol


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## Vivexx (Nov 28, 2007)

damn i didnt get it lol weird looking luce though hes cool


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