# Zoo placement for dart frogs



## earthfrog

Anyone had success placing some dart frogs in a zoo? I think this might be a good way to raise public awareness and appreciation for these creatures, and it might spur others on to the dartfrog hobby as well. This might be a big step in some areas towards promoting protection and conservation efforts for the 'Jewels of the Rainforest' (as my local zoo calls them).


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## Chicago Frog Man

I think a lot of zoos already have dart frogs, I never knew the zoos had them until I started in the hobby, then noticed them at zoos I have been going to for years. My girlfriend works at Cosley Zoo in Wheaton, IL, and they have them. I actually supply FF's to them when they run short. Brookfield Zoo in Brookfield, IL has splashbacks, azureus, leucomelas, cobalts, etc, and I know the Shed Aquarium in Chicago has them also. I have seen a number of posts with photos from Zoo's with Dart frogs, I believe they were from the Baltimore Zoo, and some zoo in Ohio. 

Good idea though! I do notice at the displays I have seen that they often mix frogs, the humidity levels are very low, and they generally don't know how to care for them properly. They are tough buggers though, and don't seem to die!


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## earthfrog

Yeah, I know some zoos have been keeping them. I am working on placing some of mine with the local zoo---I know that they had recently had an exhibit of Azureus, but I guess I will find out what happened to them, and also be sure that they did not mix them together with other species. I also plan to advise them on care so they won't kill them any faster than the visiting public might by peering into their tank. 
Thanks for the heads up.


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## james67

my local aquarium should have their PDF collection removed and donated to private owners. they keep auratus leucs and tincs in a roughly 40 gallon (possibly 20 adult individuals) and on bare gravel. 

im sure many places are responsible and knowledgeable and house and care for their pdfs very well, but i feel that many institutions are not suited with the type of involvement in care needed for PDFs.

they become so caught up in maintaining such vast and diverse collections that they cant provide the type of individual care needed for each animal (particularly ones like PDFs)

again i know that there are GREAT zoos and aquariums, just that donating to institutions that probably cant provide the level of care or expertise that a hobbyist (that owns the frogs in the first place) can might not be a good idea.

james


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## gretchenellie

my local Zoo purchased some mantellas that I had, and some CB by me African Reed Frogs.

Once my Lamasi get going strong enough, and my Leuc's start, I may contact them again.


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## earthfrog

I intend to interview them to ascertain what level of care they are able to provide. If it is not up to my expectation, I may not donate the frogs. I was able to view the tank setup that they might use for the frog, and it appears to be a suitable 'jungle' setup.
I hope they are able to provide the level of husbandry these frogs deserve.


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## earthfrog

gretchenellie said:


> my local Zoo purchased some mantellas that I had, and some CB by me African Reed Frogs.
> 
> Once my Lamasi get going strong enough, and my Leuc's start, I may contact them again.


Are they taking good care of them, then? I'd like their contact info if so---that way I can give their info to my zoo in case they could use another point of 'expertise' to consult when they have need.


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## jpstod

Since its over 150 miles to a Zoo I have been trying to put together a local Zoological and Herpelogical Soceity together here and have a place to show locals reptiles and amphipians.


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## earthfrog

james67 said:


> my local aquarium should have their PDF collection removed and donated to private owners. they keep auratus leucs and tincs in a roughly 40 gallon (possibly 20 adult individuals) and on bare gravel.
> 
> im sure many places are responsible and knowledgeable and house and care for their pdfs very well, but i feel that many institutions are not suited with the type of involvement in care needed for PDFs.
> 
> they become so caught up in maintaining such vast and diverse collections that they cant provide the type of individual care needed for each animal (particularly ones like PDFs)
> 
> again i know that there are GREAT zoos and aquariums, just that donating to institutions that probably cant provide the level of care or expertise that a hobbyist (that owns the frogs in the first place) can might not be a good idea.
> 
> james



Have you tried to contact them and help them learn how to properly care for them?


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## james67

no. i went rather recently, and was very disappointed with the entire thing (the whole aquarium) i told them on my way out that keeping them on gravel was not a good idea, but i doubt if that really did anything. the sad part is that i remember this aquarium so fondly when they opened it (about 15 years ago) and now it is really quite the POS. even more disappointing was the $20 dollar admission with no resident discounts. but that being said, i just feel that it is unlikely that many institutions can really provide the same level of care as a truly dedicated individual. 

james

i haven't released the name of the institution but it is a LARGE and well known facility in FL


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## earthfrog

james67 said:


> no. i went rather recently, and was very disappointed with the entire thing (the whole aquarium) i told them on my way out that keeping them on gravel was not a good idea, but i doubt if that really did anything. the sad part is that i remember this aquarium so fondly when they opened it (about 15 years ago) and now it is really quite the POS. even more disappointing was the $20 dollar admission with no resident discounts. but that being said, i just feel that it is unlikely that many institutions can really provide the same level of care as a truly dedicated individual.
> 
> james
> 
> i haven't released the name of the institution but it is a LARGE and well known facility in FL


If I were you, I would talk to the herp/amphibian guy/girl on a more formal level and give him/her some tips on their care. Maybe they'd appreciate the advice---you never know until you try. 
I hope I get a call back from the zoo. It sure would be neat to have my frogs displayed there.


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## yumpster

I'm actually not sure if my zoo has PDFs yet. I will have to check next time I am there. I'm curious...are the majority of zoos free admission? Mine is and I wasn't sure if that was common.


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## aquascott

most arent free so i bet your taxes are paying for it ! enjoy


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## heatfreakk3

The Tulsa zoo near me has a very nice rainforest building with a large open area for dart frogs. They have Azureus, Leucs, and Auratus.


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## yumpster

> most arent free so i bet your taxes are paying for it ! enjoy



Isn't that true for just about everything these days? haha


I actually live far enough away to where it probably isn't even my taxes that pay for it. 


I've been meaning to go there soon, but can never find the time.


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## earthfrog

I think it would be a good thing for us to volunteer time and effort to raise public awareness in area zoos. Each of you who has added to this thread could go and talk to your zoo's reptile/amphibian guy and see if you could offer them some knowledge---just extending your hobby outside of the walls of your home would do a lot of good for the community at large, and who knows if a key politician taking his kid to a zoo would begin to appreciate the 'jewels of the rainforest'...

(OK, now someone needs to start screenwriting this...)


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## james67

i hope im not going too far off topic but...
raising awareness is something of key importance, unfortunately, from what i have seen, it is very hard to get anything done when it comes to saving dart frogs. those that are threatened are generally those that either have encountered massive habitat loss or those that have been over collected, and some that have a little of each problem. i feel the real number of frogs at risk is far fewer than i think the hobby generally lets on since there are many "common" frogs that are nonexistent in the hobby due to bans on export, etc, etc. bluejeans and histos are good examples. and while i support the display of these animals by knowledgeable institutions i think that it is a sort of double edged sword. it can raise awareness, or it can serve as a place where patrons see an animal that they would like to keep, and not to sound elitist but, the vast majority of new froggers never become long term froggers, and that is certainly not helping the frogs or wild populations. especially in the case of frogs such as oophaga 

i agree that our knowledge could be shared with those at these institutions, and i will be sure to visit the aquarium on my next trip back to FL. 
i doubt that the politician will have much affect on the cattle industry in central america, and short of massive land purchases, and heavily armed park officials i, very unfortunately, doubt much will change. 

again please excuse me if i am too far off of the topic. and earthfrog; im glad that you have taken the stance you have. all of us are the voices for these animals, and we certainly should do whatever we can to prevent further losses of wild populations, and education is a key aspect of that. im also happy to hear that the local institutions where others live are not of the same low quality as the one near my home. 

great topic!
james


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## earthfrog

james67 said:


> i hope im not going too far off topic but...
> raising awareness is something of key importance, unfortunately, from what i have seen, it is very hard to get anything done when it comes to saving dart frogs. those that are threatened are generally those that either have encountered massive habitat loss or those that have been over collected, and some that have a little of each problem. i feel the real number of frogs at risk is far fewer than i think the hobby generally lets on since there are many "common" frogs that are nonexistent in the hobby due to bans on export, etc, etc. bluejeans and histos are good examples. and while i support the display of these animals by knowledgeable institutions i think that it is a sort of double edged sword. it can raise awareness, or it can serve as a place where patrons see an animal that they would like to keep, and not to sound elitist but, the vast majority of new froggers never become long term froggers, and that is certainly not helping the frogs or wild populations. especially in the case of frogs such as oophaga
> 
> i agree that our knowledge could be shared with those at these institutions, and i will be sure to visit the aquarium on my next trip back to FL.
> i doubt that the politician will have much affect on the cattle industry in central america, and short of massive land purchases, and heavily armed park officials i, very unfortunately, doubt much will change...


Well, for instance, take my local neighborhood. When I moved in, the yards looked crappy and people didn't have a reason to keep them in good shape. I took over the Welcoming Commitee and started awarding people for Yard of the Month by giving out $50 gift cards to the home improvement store. Now we have better looking yards than some of the nicer neighborhoods around here. 
I think sometimes a little public awareness and marketing can go a long way towards changing the mass mindset about these often misunderstood animals---and everyone in marketing can attest to the fact that word of mouth is the most believeable advertising. 
So, I really think it is worthwhile to risk the masses' exposure to the frogs, even if they're ignorant, as long as breeders are responsible enough not to sell the rare frogs to newbies. 
Perhaps not much will change in other countries. But we can still make a difference here. 
Thanks for your input!


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## Jellyman

You could probably offer to donate your time to the zoo. That would probably be much more appreciated then going in their and trying to tell someone that probably has a degree in the field they are working how to do their job. I would think it is probably more a time and money constraint on the zoo and staff then it is a lack of knowledge issue. I just find it hard to grasp that an individual that takes on a career caring for animals does not do whatever is in their control to provide the best possible conditions with the resources they have available to them. 

I don't know. This is a hard one.


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## earthfrog

Jellyman said:


> You could probably offer to donate your time to the zoo. That would probably be much more appreciated then going in their and trying to tell someone that probably has a degree in the field they are working how to do their job. I would think it is probably more a time and money constraint on the zoo and staff then it is a lack of knowledge issue. I just find it hard to grasp that an individual that takes on a career caring for animals does not do whatever is in their control to provide the best possible conditions with the resources they have available to them.
> 
> I don't know. This is a hard one.


Yeah, I wish I could, but the zoo in my area is 1 1/2 hours away, and I work and have three kids---it's just not feasible for me. I think we should continue to be proactive and educate zoo workers. Compared to other frogs, the PDF is just more fragile than many zoo workers realize.


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## Jellyman

earthfrog said:


> Yeah, I wish I could, but the zoo in my area is 1 1/2 hours away, and I work and have three kids---it's just not feasible for me. I think we should continue to be proactive and educate zoo workers. Compared to other frogs, the PDF is just more fragile than many zoo workers realize.


I was not referring to making it a part time job. Maybe one or two days a month. Or, specifically donate money to the frog exhibits and have them document for you what your donation was spent on. You could have a little plaque "This exhibit made possible by Earthfrog." Now that would be cool. I may just do that at the Topeka Zoo!!!

The keepers are not just everyday Joe's like you find working at Home Depot and know nothing about plumbing or electrical. The keepers have gone to school to learn about animal husbandry and probably research the animals before an animal is purchased and an enclosure is constructed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt that the majoruty of keepers need to be educated by the hobbiest and that some of the poorer exhibits are out of the control of the keepers due to the money the Zoo allocates them and the amount of time they can spend on one praticular animal each day.


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## jubjub47

I don't think that the zookeepers are getting the credit they deserve in this thread. Besides being highly educated in their fields, they work very hard to achieve proper conditions within the budgets they are given. Mixing of species is not something that is done out of ignorance at the zoos as are some minimal and sometimes subpar exhibits. Funding in the herp area is not always very high and much of what gets accomplished often times comes from volunteers and donations specifically allocated for a set exhibit. While many of us on these forums target the dart frogs to critique, we must also understand that the keeper also have many other herps throughout the herp house to take care of and while we may see an exhibit as minimal or poor they many times are setup on a temporary basis until the budget allows them to accomodate the enclosure better. Zoos often times don't get much notice when something comes available to them so they take them in and work to fit them into the budget as soon as they can. Jellyman has the best advice out of the group so far. The keepers typically will welcome volunteers before they even can finish their sentence and are always looking for donations of exhibit specific instruction. I've volunteered at various times at both local zoos and I assure you they are doing what they can with what they are given. 

Sorry if this offends anyone as its not the intent. I've worked with several keepers locally and have seen what they are given to work with and quite frankly its amazing what they can make out of nothing. I just hate to see them targeted for things they have no control over in most cases.


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## earthfrog

Oh, believe me, I think very highly of zoo workers and think they're on the whole very competent---I can think of a few right now that are very professional and on-the-level with their stuff. I can't even touch the wealth of knowledge they have. 
I don't want this to turn into a thread criticizing zoo workers. They certainly don't always get the credit they deserve for the great job that they do. I think it would be best if you see that an animal needs more adequate care to donate funds to the zoo, and specify that you would like them to go to a particular animal----many zoos will let you 'adopt' an animal like that. 
Certainly, I'm not suggesting you go in and 'lecture' a zookeeper, but to me it's like I'm leaving my kids with a babysitter---I assume she's competent, but I still wouldn't feel right leaving them w/out reminding her to feed them this and that, put them in bed on time, etc. I would just find out if they've researched that species, and if so great! Anything offered would be done while remaining respectful of the expertise they already have.


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## earthfrog

Jellyman said:


> The keepers are not just everyday Joe's like you find working at Home Depot and know nothing about plumbing or electrical. The keepers have gone to school to learn about animal husbandry and probably research the animals before an animal is purchased and an enclosure is constructed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I highly doubt that the majoruty of keepers need to be educated by the hobbiest and that some of the poorer exhibits are out of the control of the keepers due to the money the Zoo allocates them and the amount of time they can spend on one praticular animal each day.


I agree with you, Jellyman, and I am sure they are by all means very professional and have done a lot of training for what they do. I think you are speaking rightly when you say that poorer exhibits are a victim of lack of funding rather than a lack of expertise. 
However, I do not see the harm in asking if they have worked with PDFs before. even while assuming they are very knowledgeable.
I teach natural childbirth, for which I have trained for years and been certified, and I don't think it's too much for someone to ask me for references or how many years I've taught. It's only fair that they feel right about the choice they are making with their birth experience in trusting my advice. 

And so, I must feel right about the sacrifice I am making in giving my frogs to someone I do not know. I at least need the closure of answers that will make me feel good about leaving them in someone else's care---the same reason I screen buyers before I sell frogs.


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## jubjub47

earthfrog said:


> Oh, believe me, I think very highly of zoo workers and think they're on the whole very competent---I can think of a few right now that are very professional and on-the-level with their stuff. I can't even touch the wealth of knowledge they have.
> I don't want this to turn into a thread criticizing zoo workers. They certainly don't always get the credit they deserve for the great job that they do. I think it would be best if you see that an animal needs more adequate care to donate funds to the zoo, and specify that you would like them to go to a particular animal----many zoos will let you 'adopt' an animal like that.
> Certainly, I'm not suggesting you go in and 'lecture' a zookeeper, but to me it's like I'm leaving my kids with a babysitter---I assume she's competent, but I still wouldn't feel right leaving them w/out reminding her to feed them this and that, put them in bed on time, etc. I would just find out if they've researched that species, and if so great! Anything offered would be done while remaining respectful of the expertise they already have.


In my past experience with donating animals to the zoo, they love to discuss your husbandry techniques and such. Even with the vast amounts of knowledge that anyone can have, there are always things that could be learned and many are receptive to learning as such. I understand that you were not out to target zoo keepers, but there seemed to be a vibe in the thread and I wanted to make sure that it didn't go down that path.


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## earthfrog

jubjub47 said:


> I understand that you were not out to target zoo keepers, but there seemed to be a vibe in the thread and I wanted to make sure that it didn't go down that path.


I second that, Tim.


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## james67

i hope no one got the idea that i was discrediting the work that many many dedicated individuals do at fine institutions. quite the contrary, i believe that they ,are as you described, are sort of forced to do with what they get, which is why i believe that a dedicated individual/ hobbyist, who believes that no expense or inconvenience, is too great to provide the absolute best care for the animal, can likely give better care to the animal. i agree when i say that i think some places are forced to display so many different and diverse creatures that, not by their own fault, they provide a suitable home, but not the same quality that many of us can provide.

james


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## yumpster

So I made a trip to the zoo today, and found the PDF display they had. The pictures will explain themselves. The first pic is of the enclosure they were all being kept in. There were at least 6 frogs in it spanning 4 or 5 species. I could identify 1 cobalt, 2 leucs, 1 azureus, 1 green and black auratus (couldn't determine the locality because it was well hidden), and another frog I couldn't identify. The viv looked adequate, but I was bothered by the amount and species of frogs being kept together.

The last pic is a single species mantella viv that seemed to be rather well done, but I couldn't spot any of the little guys!

Sorry for the low quality pics. I had to take them on my phone because I was sure they would spark some interesting conversation in this thread.


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## earthfrog

yumpster said:


> So I made a trip to the zoo today, and found the PDF display they had. The pictures will explain themselves. The first pic is of the enclosure they were all being kept in. There were at least 6 frogs in it spanning 4 or 5 species. I could identify 1 cobalt, 2 leucs, 1 azureus, 1 green and black auratus (couldn't determine the locality because it was well hidden), and another frog I couldn't identify. The viv looked adequate, but I was bothered by the amount and species of frogs being kept together.
> 
> The last pic is a single species mantella viv that seemed to be rather well done, but I couldn't spot any of the little guys!
> 
> Sorry for the low quality pics. I had to take them on my phone because I was sure they would spark some interesting conversation in this thread.



I think I can start to see the main point of this thread----that we need to donate supplies to zoos so they can support animals properly. I think in some cases, it may be out of the keeper's hands as far as funding goes---money is divvyed out to the more "charismatic" animals such as zebras, lions, rhinos, and herp depts. get short-changed. So, money that goes there gets funneled into the bigger animals first.
These pics are telling me to send some sphagnum moss to my zoo as soon as possible---I think it is a real 'hero' sort of job to perservere and care for these animals in a zoo despite not having access to the proper resources.


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## jubjub47

One of the biggest issues has been brought up with the pictures and also the argument defended with the pictures. Yes zoos are limited on space and funds for animals such as darts. I know that all but a few members of the forum prefer single species vivs and such as well. These pics are a perfect example though of why zoos tend to use multi species displays. The frogs in the dart viv are colorful and visible and catch the zoo visitors eye. Notice how it was mentioned that the single species mantella viv looked good but he couldn't find the frogs in there. Your typical zoo visitor will see a viv like that and keep walking and never actually see how spectacular those mantellas are. The zoo's job is to present the visitor a glimpse of an animal that they may or may not even know exists. While I agree that the mixed species vivs are not the most desired in the hobby, be rest assured that those animals are going to stay within zoos and any offspring will as well. It's up to the visitor that wants to get into the hobby to do their research at places such as here and learn that what they see at the zoo may not always be the preferred method or best method for them to keep the animals. While zoos need all the donations they can get, don't get too gung ho about the mixed species viv going by the wayside because they probably won't.


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## Ed

As a further point..the average amount of time that a visitor spends viewing an exhibit is less than 45 seconds, usually closer to 29 seconds. 

Ed


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## yumpster

> As a further point..the average amount of time that a visitor spends viewing an exhibit is less than 45 seconds, usually closer to 29 seconds.
> 
> Ed


Unless you are waiting for people to move so you can take some unobstructed pictures of the exhibit in hopes that they will later spur some interesting conversation.


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## jubjub47

Ed said:


> As a further point..the average amount of time that a visitor spends viewing an exhibit is less than 45 seconds, usually closer to 29 seconds.
> 
> Ed


Haha, I completely believe that they have researched that too. Sometimes it only takes 45 seconds though to spur the interest of a visitor enough for them to start researching the animals though too.


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## Philsuma

Or the occassional visitor that blows the average up by spending a hour in front of the display.....then goes on to be a herpetologist, curator, hobbyist or naturalist.....

Like us


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## AzureFrog

The average person also does not notice the sun, the moon and the stars... 

I would say that a large percentage of the human race, walk (and drive) around like they have blinders on. 

Peace
Shawn


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## yumpster

At least I was able to impart some knowledge on some young kids. The part that made me laugh the most is that the zoo only had two of the frogs in the exhibit labeled. They called them "Green and black poison frog" and "Yellow and blue poison frog". The information listed under the names would have made everyone here cringe.


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## earthfrog

yumpster said:


> At least I was able to impart some knowledge on some young kids. The part that made me laugh the most is that the zoo only had two of the frogs in the exhibit labeled. They called them "Green and black poison frog" and "Yellow and blue poison frog". The information listed under the names would have made everyone here cringe.


They probably tried to simplify it so it would be easy for a quick-read when walking through the zoo.


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## yumpster

Yeah that's what I thought originally, but as I continued on through the reptile and amphibian section everything had their correct names with their scientific names. It just made me chuckle.


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## Ed

yumpster said:


> At least I was able to impart some knowledge on some young kids. The part that made me laugh the most is that the zoo only had two of the frogs in the exhibit labeled. They called them "Green and black poison frog" and "Yellow and blue poison frog". The information listed under the names would have made everyone here cringe.



This is not an unused common name within the literature (try a google scholar search for blue and yellow poison dart frog) and refers to Dendrobates tinctorius in general. 

Ed


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## Woodsman

Hey Shawn,

Sounds like you know a LOT of people!




AzureFrog said:


> The average person also does not notice the sun, the moon and the stars...
> 
> I would say that a large percentage of the human race, walk (and drive) around like they have blinders on.
> 
> Peace
> Shawn


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## earthfrog

earthfrog said:


> I think I can start to see the main point of this thread----that we need to donate supplies to zoos so they can support animals properly. I think in some cases, it may be out of the keeper's hands as far as funding goes---money is divvyed out to the more "charismatic" animals such as zebras, lions, rhinos, and herp depts. get short-changed. So, money that goes there gets funneled into the bigger animals first.
> These pics are telling me to send some sphagnum moss to my zoo as soon as possible---I think it is a real 'hero' sort of job to perservere and care for these animals in a zoo despite not having access to the proper resources.


So, anyone else have some more _good_ experiences they want to share?
(If not, check over the above before making a judgement on the zoo).


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## AzureFrog

Woodsman said:


> Hey Shawn,
> 
> Sounds like you know a LOT of people!



Actually I do, I'm a teacher. I've learned a lot about human nature.


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## Ed

jubjub47 said:


> Haha, I completely believe that they have researched that too. Sometimes it only takes 45 seconds though to spur the interest of a visitor enough for them to start researching the animals though too.


Those are the exceptions and not the rule. I can dig out the reference but the exhibit that resulted in the longest average viewer's attention was a large burmese python in a bare concrete cage..... 

The reason they did the study was to help determine how the education component can be better transfered... Keep in mind that the 45 seconds or less also includes whether or not they read any of the graphics for that exhibit. 
I helped with a study in our building and we tracked random people through the entrance and whether or not they read any of the graphics.. and something like on any given exhibit the rate of reading the graphic was less than 25% of the time. So to optomize getting the information across, you should repeat it across as many different exhibits as possible..... 

Ed


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## Ed

AzureFrog said:


> The average person also does not notice the sun, the moon and the stars...
> 
> I would say that a large percentage of the human race, walk (and drive) around like they have blinders on.
> 
> Peace
> Shawn


The thing most people want to know about the animals is whether not they animal in question makes a good pet.. and they really don't want to hear when you tell that the animal in question does not make a good pet..... 

Ed


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## jubjub47

Ed said:


> Those are the exceptions and not the rule. I can dig out the reference but the exhibit that resulted in the longest average viewer's attention was a large burmese python in a bare concrete cage.....
> 
> The reason they did the study was to help determine how the education component can be better transfered... Keep in mind that the 45 seconds or less also includes whether or not they read any of the graphics for that exhibit.
> I helped with a study in our building and we tracked random people through the entrance and whether or not they read any of the graphics.. and something like on any given exhibit the rate of reading the graphic was less than 25% of the time. So to optomize getting the information across, you should repeat it across as many different exhibits as possible.....
> 
> Ed


There is something about large burmese pythons that really get peoples attention. I think that since so many people are scared of them they receive the same type of aww that car accidents do. You just have to keep looking and trying to imagine something so big and "scary".

It's really amazing to me that so many people go to the zoo and could care less about any of the science or history of the animals. They love looking at them, but when it comes to actually doing some learning it just seems that many time people are just too lazy or flat out could give a rats arse. It's really a shame. I'm sure that people like yourself that work at the zoo and put all of the time and effort that you do get pretty annoyed by look and walk attitude that people take.


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## Ed

jubjub47 said:


> I'm sure that people like yourself that work at the zoo and put all of the time and effort that you do get pretty annoyed by look and walk attitude that people take.


If you let it get to you, you need to move on.... work for the ones who can be reached and ignore the rest...

Supporting your local Zoo is an important item.. I'm not going to recommend that people volunteer without carefully checking out thier zoo as some zoos treat volunteers a resource that can be over used, but donating supplies that they need is a good way to help (or if there isn't a zoo local, check out the local animal shelter). 

Ed


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## jubjub47

Our zoo's here have always been very good with volunteers. I've always been very happy to help them since they've treated me so well when I've volunteered time and supplies.


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## AzureFrog

Ed said:


> If you let it get to you, you need to move on.... work for the ones who can be reached and ignore the rest...
> 
> Ed



Unfortunately, this applies to teaching any subject.  You can't teach when people aren't willing to learn.


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## devin mac

jubjub47 said:


> It's really amazing to me that so many people go to the zoo and could care less about any of the science or history of the animals. They love looking at them, but when it comes to actually doing some learning it just seems that many time people are just too lazy or flat out could give a rats arse. It's really a shame. I'm sure that people like yourself that work at the zoo and put all of the time and effort that you do get pretty annoyed by look and walk attitude that people take.


The only flip side of this that I'll take a second to point out, is that there is likely PLENTY of stuff that someone else would use as subject matter to say the same thing about you. Whether it's politics, finance, automotive mechanics, filmmaking, theater, Egyptology, quantum physics, etc etc etc... It's all just a matter of perspective. End of the day, at least people are looking. ;-)


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## jubjub47

I'm sure that point is valid for many people. For me though...if I'm not interested in learning and experiencing then I'm not gonna go. I went to an art museum that the g/f dragged me too a few weeks ago and had absolutely no interest in going. But if I'm there I'm going to make the best of it and I read and interacted where possible and actually had a good time and even learned some things. Its fine if you go and are not interested, but if you're there why not make the best of it.


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## earthfrog

Anyone else had success placing dart frogs in a zoo?


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## Chris Miller

earthfrog said:


> Anyone else had success placing dart frogs in a zoo?


I've never placed any, but I did sell some to a couple zoos and an institution in Chicago and the greater metro area.


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## carbonetc

earthfrog said:


> So, anyone else have some more _good_ experiences they want to share?
> (If not, check over the above before making a judgement on the zoo).


The Baltimore Aquarium had some great displays the last time I was there, but they were having a big amphibian event so most of them are gone now. They had wood and rock work that would make most of us envious and the species (usually) weren't mixed. 

The National Zoo in DC has an area called Amazonia where you can see their breeder tanks and their tadpole racks. They aren't showy but they're a bonus for people like us.


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## earthfrog

carbonetc said:


> The Baltimore Aquarium had some great displays the last time I was there, but they were having a big amphibian event so most of them are gone now. They had wood and rock work that would make most of us envious and the species (usually) weren't mixed.
> 
> The National Zoo in DC has an area called Amazonia where you can see their breeder tanks and their tadpole racks. They aren't showy but they're a bonus for people like us.


I checked out the Amazonia exhibit online and it looks like they have a very professional setup there---they also care for the following frogs:

Bicolored poison arrow frog
Black-legged poison arrow frog
Dyeing poison arrow frog
Golden poison arrow frog
Imitation poison arrow frog
Phantasmal poison arrow frog
Splash-backed poison arrow frog
Yellow-banded poison arrow frog 

Thanks for sharing!


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## jubjub47

The ISIS database will give you a pretty good idea of what animals each zoo has. It's not always up to date, but it's pretty interesting to look through. It's also neat to see Treewalkers in the list like a zoo.

https://app.isis.org/abstracts/abs.asp


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## earthfrog

Here's a good link that shows how zoos play a vital role in conservation:

The Role of Zoos in Amphibian Conservation


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## james67

i think i'll play devils advocate some more here...

what about the zeteki? AZAs site claims they are doing great things to help this species because of its status as critically endangered, however, i know that panama has had many problems with finding enough males to start captive breeding, yet offspring from the American zoos are culled, why you might ask??? bs and red tape from my perspective. and the fact that instead of letting an animal into the public for fear that wild specimens could be laundered (if you could find pairs to begin with, since the researchers in panama, from those Jeff Corwin interviewed, cant even do that) they kill offspring because all zoos and aquariums with the proper facilities are full and there are issues with genetic bottlenecks and AZA guidelines for husbandry that must be followed.

from my perspective this isn't conservation minded, this is junk! give the frogs to reputable breeders, and let them create stud books, etc. they can focus on that species specifically, and i know that a number of folks here would love to pair up their remaining zeteki. but there was an agreement with panama, one might say, that prohibits the release of these animals. well it should be up for review, and i'm sure someone (a hobbyist) here would be happy to trade a male to the Panamanian government (to help their breeding efforts) in exchange for a female.

again this is seemingly too much to ask.

any other thought on the conservation mindedness of the zoos and aquariums?,
and again PLEASE don't take this as an assault on zookeepers. they must follow these guidelines and as discussed earlier they have to make do with what they have.

james


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## jubjub47

James, it's been discussed on these boards almost as much as Pete Rose and the hall of fame. You have good points about zeteki, but the fact of the matter is that the native country does not want these animals given to the public. This is in no way the zoos fault. I agree that if these animals were made available to the hobby that there is a good chance that the populations would be very successful, but that is not what is allowed by their home country. This is probably an issue that a group of hobbiest such as ASN could look to get involved with the country and work out an arrangement under a controlled release to the hobby. Until something like this happens though it is very unlikely that Panama will change there minds on the topic and even that may be impossible.


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## Ed

james67 said:


> i think i'll play devils advocate some more here...
> 
> what about the zeteki? AZAs site claims they are doing great things to help this species because of its status as critically endangered, however, i know that panama has had many problems with finding enough males to start captive breeding, yet offspring from the American zoos are culled, why you might ask??? bs and red tape from my perspective. and the fact that instead of letting an animal into the public for fear that wild specimens could be laundered (if you could find pairs to begin with, since the researchers in panama, from those Jeff Corwin interviewed, cant even do that) they kill offspring because all zoos and aquariums with the proper facilities are full and there are issues with genetic bottlenecks and AZA guidelines for husbandry that must be followed.


So what if the legal release of zeteki allow the laundering of a number of other critical atelopus species that appear very similar in appearence to zeteki? 

To correct a often miscited point above.. the offspring are not culled because the zoos etc are full... they are culled because 
1) if the females are not allowed to lay eggs then egg retention and prolapsing of the eggs leads to significant mortality. 
2) the offspring that are culled are from closely related or inbred groups to prevent overpopulation from preventing space being available for being able to sustain maximal reproductive behavior
3) the maximal life span of this species is fairly short (max is close to 7 years excluding tadpole and metamorph lost to prevent skewing of the data) and the median lifespan (excluding tadpoles and metamorphs due to population control from skewing the age) is about 4-5 years, this means that those animals needed to sustain the maximal genetic diversity often need to reproduce before the median age due to normal losses.. 





james67 said:


> from my perspective this isn't conservation minded, this is junk! give the frogs to reputable breeders, and let them create stud books, etc. they can focus on that species specifically, and i know that a number of folks here would love to pair up their remaining zeteki. but there was an agreement with panama, one might say, that prohibits the release of these animals. well it should be up for review, and i'm sure someone (a hobbyist) here would be happy to trade a male to the Panamanian government (to help their breeding efforts) in exchange for a female.
> 
> again this is seemingly too much to ask..


Name one species that the hobby has successfully conserved? Lets look at the continued importations of D. auratus for the last 20 plus years. If the hobby cannot maintain and conserve auratus why should you be given a critically endangered species to play with given the current track record? 

The Panamanian goverment owns the zeteki in the US.. if the goverment there really wants any of them, they would be quickly shipped back. As a further item, they were collected and bred in Panama at El Valle..

As for the Jeff Corwin interviews.. lets just say that they didn't tell the whole truth.... 

How is that for answering your Devil's advocate...


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## james67

woah now ed... please don't misconstrue what i am saying. like i said, im just presenting another point of view here and by no means am i saying that it is the zoos fault that zeteki are mandated to be managed the way they are. i also had the feeling that the Jeff Corwin documentary on critryd was exaggerated, however, that doesnt change the fact that the possibility exists to do more extensive breeding through private means. 

i understand that panama owns the animals. however like i said i think it is worth looking at the possibility of extending the breeding population to individuals, through discussions with the proper panamanian authorities. 

let me say that i am NOT an individual that has ANY interest in owning/ breeding these animals.

i also understand the need to let females breed regardless of the genetics of the animals enclosed together because of the mortality rate of "egg bound" animals. and i also understand that there was an agreement made that prohibits the release of these animals, therefore their offspring must be dealt with accordingly. 


also i agree that the hobby , which claims to be pretty conservation minded, is FAR from that and that the vast majority of these animals are lost. i have made no claim that i am aiding in conservation, and my animals and their offspring will almost definitely never see their native habitat. make no mistake, we likely do more damage than good. 

ALL i am suggesting is that while there ARE many many dedicated zookeepers and herpetologists who care for these animals, i think that that by no means makes them more suited to care for them than a truly dedicated hobbyist. thats it. and i think that it warrants serious discussion about releasing a very select few individuals into the hands of EXPERIENCED keepers. perhaps a mandate that each individual and all offspring are recorded and managed similarly to how they are in zoos and aquariums.

in a similar situation alligator farmers were required to release a certain % of all offspring back into the natural habitat, when they were placed on the red list, and they have bounced back spectacularly. (of course this coincided with a number of other regulations and restrictions on hunting, etc.)

i sincerely hope that my previous post was not taken as offensive to anyone.

ed as always i appreciate your very intelligent comments and hope that i didn't strike a sore chord with this topic, on a side note i was hoping that you might see my post on pesticides and shed some light on that topic for me.

thanks
james


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## Ed

Hi James,

You brought up the devil's advocate portion of tonight's drama... and lo and behold one appears.... 



james67 said:


> woah now ed... please don't misconstrue what i am saying. like i said, im just presenting another point of view here and by no means am i saying that it is the zoos fault that zeteki are mandated to be managed the way they are. i also had the feeling that the Jeff Corwin documentary on critryd was exaggerated, however, that doesnt change the fact that the possibility exists to do more extensive breeding through private means.


Actually, until such a time as the hobby and other "private means" show themselves to be able to regulate themselves in such a manner that outside agencies view them as reliable it does mean that they will not be allowed to partake in those programs. There is signficant history of the private sector getting involved and then getting greedy and shooting a hole in the boat to make a buck. For example, Dyscophus antongilli in the late 1980s.. the Zoos, the goverment of Madagascar and a West coast university professor (who shall remain nameless) collaborated on breeding the tomato frogs. It turned out that the professor, reported that breeders had died when he had sold them into the pet trade, he also underreported metamorphs etc which he had also sold into the pet trade... There is a long history of this behavior on the part of the private sector (we had spotted turtles on loan to a New England University and had our entire colony stolen just a couple of years ago).. Now how does that look to a outside country who is working to save a toad that to them is a national treasure? (and even though we signed the convention on biopiracy we have never ratified it... so they don't have any recourse if anything happens). 

And why is it, that the private means are only for the cool looking bright colored frogs/toads. How come no one wants the little brown endangered Eleuthrodactylus??? This is also another position where the hobby shoots itself in the foot. Why does the hobby only want to work with what is percieved to be charismatic animals that at least initially will be high dollar animals? 




james67 said:


> i understand that panama owns the animals. however like i said i think it is worth looking at the possibility of extending the breeding population to individuals, through discussions with the proper panamanian authorities.


There is a large push among some in the Panamanian legislature to have them all returned basically because there is a fear that they will end up in the private sector in the US and/or Europe and Asia without any benefit to Panama. 



james67 said:


> let me say that i am NOT an individual that has ANY interest in owning/ breeding these animals.






james67 said:


> also i agree that the hobby , which claims to be pretty conservation minded, is FAR from that and that the vast majority of these animals are lost. i have made no claim that i am aiding in conservation, and my animals and their offspring will almost definitely never see their native habitat. make no mistake, we likely do more damage than good.


Well, if the vast majority of animals are lost then how does the hobby expect to be able to maintain the required genetics? How is the hobby going to take being denied the ability to breed the animals in thier possession when they may have to ship out animals to pair up for maximal genetic diversity....



james67 said:


> ALL i am suggesting is that while there ARE many many dedicated zookeepers and herpetologists who care for these animals, i think that that by no means makes them more suited to care for them than a truly dedicated hobbyist. thats it. and i think that it warrants serious discussion about releasing a very select few individuals into the hands of EXPERIENCED keepers. perhaps a mandate that each individual and all offspring are recorded and managed similarly to how they are in zoos and aquariums.


you are right that the keepers may not be better than the hobbyists however the Zoo itself is a regulated agency that has to follow specific guidelines to be accredited as well as submit to the will of the population manager.. and Zoos have shown an ability to do these requirements or they are no longer accredited and lose funding etc. Until such as time that the hobby shows a similar method of handling these items it won't happen. 



james67 said:


> in a similar situation alligator farmers were required to release a certain % of all offspring back into the natural habitat, when they were placed on the red list, and they have bounced back spectacularly. (of course this coincided with a number of other regulations and restrictions on hunting, etc.)


This is an apples and oranges examples. There was no genetic tracking of the alligator population to ensure that the captive population would be viable in 500 years, there was a habitat in which they could be immediately released, there wasn't any concern that there would be problems with disease transmission to the wild population from infected captive populations... and so forth.. It worked but it was a very rudimentry program compared to that which is needed to keep zeteki going long term. 




james67 said:


> i sincerely hope that my previous post was not taken as offensive to anyone.
> 
> ed as always i appreciate your very intelligent comments and hope that i didn't strike a sore chord with this topic, on a side note i was hoping that you might see my post on pesticides and shed some light on that topic for me.
> 
> thanks
> james


I wasn't offended but I do get tired of zeteki being the poster child for the hobby's sense of entitlement.... 

Ed


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## earthfrog

I think in lieu of the current tide in this thread that it's good to make some distinctions between various entities, just as a reclarification...

Zoos are the marketing, the 'face' of our frogs. They have their place in developing a love for the frogs through exposure to the public eye, and while care varies, the concept of public viewing is key here for us. 

Conservation efforts, such as Amphibian Ark, TWI, and other breeders, have their place, more privately, as a behind-the-scenes network of support---the lifeblood of the frogs. 

The frog hobby is built upon the above two efforts working continuously, albeit imperfectly and despite all odds at times, in order to be sustained. 

So, even though some people/governments may not see eye to eye in this trade, at least we can do our part to make sure our animals are healthy and bred, that we sell them to reputable people who will breed and care for them and that we support our conservation and zoo efforts in any way we can. Even though we cannot control these systems, we can impact their success---or let them suffer through our lack of support. No middle ground here. 

I'm speaking in generalities b/c I am hoping to stem the controversy a bit here. 
HOORAY for Zoos and Conservation Efforts!


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