# All of my plants are wilting/dying



## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

I know there are a few threads on this, but each situation is different. While I don't have any challenging species of plants, they all started dying as of three weeks ago. As a matter of fact, I only have Pothos and Philodendrons, with another unknown viney species. All of them were doing fantastic since setting up the viv in July. I noticed that everything started to curl downward, and the leaves under cover were turning yellow and dying completely. I changed my bulb out since it was 7 months old, and it hasn't made a difference. My little viney plant is disappearing completely. 


Mist: 3 times per day
Lighting: ~8.5hrs/day
Top: Glass canopy with mesh screen ventilation in the back

It's a real shame, because as simple as my tank was, in my opinion it was pretty lush and full for the plants I house. I feel badly for my auratus, as she doesn't have much cover anymore. I noticed she's a little less bold. I had been planning on redoing her tank with better plants and wood, but now I think I need to do it sooner. Do you think it could be a matter of maybe misting too much, or that the soil needs to be replaced? One thing I should state, is that for several days two weeks ago the viv wreaked of "bad dirt", that's the only way I can describe it.

I understand that such issues are hard to diagnose.
Thanks for your help,
Nick


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Just quickly skimmed your post and you're probably right on with the misting. Sounds quite wet and stagnant. I mist my enclosed viv once a week and it's just fine. Take some measurements before doing that but you are probably misting too much.


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Hey man same thiing happened to me. I trimmed my pothos(yellow leaves) stopped misting for a couple days and let my take ventalate a little more and within days it was back to normal


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Many plants in the viv are not compatible with fully saturated soil unless they are true aquatic plants such as anubias, bladderworts and the like. 

Plants require air pockets for the roots to breath or they will rot and die as well. I only hand-mist selectively to reduce the risk of plant death from overwatering.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

agreed with all of the people above, AND I would switch your light cycle to 12/12


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I agree with Marconis. Your light cycle is wayyyyyyy to low. 12 hours on 12 hours off with the lights. 8.5 hours of light is not enough for growth.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

All good info but maybe your reek of "bad dirt" should be addressed too. What do you do for drainage? False Bottom? LECA? Does your standing water ever get high enough to be touching your dirt? What is your substrate mix made of? ABG mix? Just potting soil?


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I guess I must be misting too much.

I am using one of those bagged soils that you buy in the reptile section, I can't remember the name. It rests on top of mesh with LECA balls underneath. The reason I guess I keep my light on for ~8.5 is because I am used to planted aquaria and anything over that in MY experience is no good.

I never misted so much that the substrate was incredibly saturated. Drainage, I thought, was pretty good in my viv.

When I redo this tank, I think I am going to use MiracleGro Organic Choice Potting Mix...I like using it in my aquariums.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> Thanks for all the replies everyone. I guess I must be misting too much.
> 
> I am using one of those bagged soils that you buy in the reptile section, I can't remember the name. It rests on top of mesh with LECA balls underneath. The reason I guess I keep my light on for ~8.5 is because I am used to planted aquaria and anything over that in MY experience is no good.
> 
> ...


Potting mix holds way too much water. 
The mix you got, if it is mainly peat moss, will hold too much as well. 
You could try ABG mix and put half-sphagnum moss in it and also let your tank rest in between misting. Daily overall misting without 'dry spells' of at least 2 weeks or so isn't good for the plants in the viv since it lets too much water build up in the soil no matter how good your substrate is.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> Potting mix holds way too much water.
> The mix you got, if it is mainly peat moss, will hold too much as well.
> You could try ABG mix and put half-sphagnum moss in it and also let your tank rest in between misting. Daily overall misting without 'dry spells' of at least 2 weeks or so isn't good for the plants in the viv since it lets too much water build up in the soil no matter how good your substrate is.


2 weeks of a dry spell? Wow. Wasn't aware of that! Here I was, worrying when I am not home for 2 days about not misting.

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to have to give my viv an overhaul one weekend when I'm not working.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Marconis said:


> Mist: 3 times per day
> Nick


Big problem for orchids. If you don't have circulation in your tank to allow an orchid roots to properly drain, they will rot in no time. No circulation = no orchids, long term. I recommend jewels , as they love low light and tolerate high humidity. They are terrestrial.

Seems like you've gotten the point on lighting as well - 12 hours on, 12 hours off is proper for plant growth.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> 2 weeks of a dry spell? Wow. Wasn't aware of that! Here I was, worrying when I am not home for 2 days about not misting.
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I'm going to have to give my viv an overhaul one weekend when I'm not working.


Now, when I say that, keep in mind in the rainforest there are empty seed pods, tree holes and other things that retain water, which help the frogs. These stay filled with water during these 'dry spells', which help the plants. I keep a seed pod coated in silicone on the outside in the substrate filled with water during this time, and I only hand mist things like ferns very superficially.
I have a lot of begonias in my tank and they cannot take too much water, so this is always the way I operate.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Dont blow off the more light comment.
Ive been growing everything from bonsai to mushrooms. 12 hours light on 12 hours light off. 
Also you should amend your soil to be lighter and less dense. I use reptile bedding (fir bark, peat) and add calcined clay, coco fiber and some spag moss. you should be able to soak the mix,scoop it up with your hands and squeeze it out.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

§lipperhead said:


> Big problem for orchids. If you don't have circulation in your tank to allow an orchid roots to properly drain, they will rot in no time. No circulation = no orchids, long term. I recommend jewels , as they love low light and tolerate high humidity. They are terrestrial.
> 
> Seems like you've gotten the point on lighting as well - 12 hours on, 12 hours off is proper for plant growth.


Will take that into consideration, most definitely. First things first, is when I get home I am going to click my timer on for another 3.5 hours. 

Thanks.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

any pics?
I know we would all love to see.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

mordoria said:


> *Dont blow off the more light comment.*
> Ive been growing everything from bonsai to mushrooms. 12 hours light on 12 hours light off.
> Also you should amend your soil to be lighter and less dense. I use reptile bedding (fir bark, peat) and add calcined clay, coco fiber and some spag moss. you should be able to soak the mix,scoop it up with your hands and squeeze it out.


Will not, by any means. Like I said, I was stuck in the aquaria mindset. While a 10-12hr photoperiod is generally the norm, I have been more accustomed to a shorter lighting period to avoid algae outbreaks, yet still get great plant growth.

Yeah, I'll grab a photo tonight. 

Here is a pic from my viv thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/560608-post37.html

Despite being simple, my plants were healthy and there was a lot of density in the back middle portion of my tank. When I get home tonight I'll show you what my tank has become.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

Wow, very nice tank! I'm sure your Auratus is satisfied with the living space.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

do you have ANY means to remove excess water from that tank? Bulkhead,, anything?
After a few months, your water level has certainly risen into your substrate layer, and could be causing root rot, which would cause the symptoms you are seeing in your plants


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

@ §lipperhead, I hope that isn't sarcasm . I am often insecure about my tank due to the impressive ones that people set up on here for their darts. Thanks for the words. Also, after this die-off, I don't think she's too satisfied! 

@ frogparty, None. Only means are evaporation. I guess since July, things tend to build up...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> @ §lipperhead, I hope that isn't sarcasm . I am often insecure about my tank due to the impressive ones that people set up on here for their darts. Thanks for the words. Also, after this die-off, I don't think she's too satisfied!
> 
> @ frogparty, None. Only means are evaporation. I guess since July, things tend to build up...


I use baked clay pebbles called Hydroton to provide an airspace underneath the substrate. 

You can reuse what you have if you put the little frog in QT with a lot of leaf litter and put her hut in there with her, then take all that stuff out and amend it with things like small bits of charcoal and long-fiber sphagnum moss. Let it sit out and dry on trays for a few days, then put it back without packing it down with your hands, on top of a 2-inch layer of clay pebbles. I divide the clay pebbles from the substrate with a fine screen mesh.

I provide drainage with a capped plastic tube disguised in one corner of the tank. It goes all the way to the bottom, past the soil and clay. I put an elongated seed pod over the top to cap it. People are always asking me, "what that is growing next to the plants?". I smile inside and tell them it's an empty seed pod covering the drainage tube.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> I provide drainage with a capped plastic tube disguised in one corner of the tank. It goes all the way to the bottom, past the soil and clay. I put an elongated seed pod over the top to cap it. People are always asking me, "what that is growing next to the plants?". I smile inside and tell them it's an empty seed pod covering the drainage tube.


Susan, if I am understanding you correctly, that tube is used by pulling the cap to insert a siphon tube into, right? That's how you get rid of your standing water without a built in drain.

Your problems with your plants basically all come back to too much water. You could get away with misting 3 times a day if your substrate was better drained. ABG mix!!! If you don't know the ins and outs of ammending your soil, you simply can't do better than ABG mix. What you have now just does not have the right drainage, nor does it have enough air pockets. You can get your ABG mix from Josh's Frogs. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html
You say you have Leca. Do you have enough? Most people use about 2 inches of either false bottom (my preference) or LECA (expanded clay pellots). 
Your smell is probably coming from Anerobic, oversaturated, soil. Possibly with the smell of rotting roots added in.
My two cents? Redo it. 2 inches of false bottom or LECA with Earthfrogs drain tube to prevent a buildup of water. Fiberglass window screen over that. One to three inches of ABG mix over that. One or two inches of leaf litter over that.l
Then, of course, give them the 12/12 lighting that your plants and frogs are adapted to.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks for the great advice everyone. I will take it all into consideration. One final question.

Is such an environment harmful to the well-being of my frog? Like any animal, their environment either aids in an emulation of their natural behaviors, or a complete dissociation from those behaviors. Could this dying environment with a lack of good cover affect her health, perhaps in physiological terms? The reason I ask is because I am going to be unable to do all this for another 2-3 weeks. Finals are approaching, I am working 19 hours a weekend, and I am also in the process of setting up a 55g planted aquarium. So, I am pretty busy.

Thanks all.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Susan, if I am understanding you correctly, that tube is used by pulling the cap to insert a siphon tube into, right? That's how you get rid of your standing water without a built in drain.


Yes, I use a Tom's Aquadosing pump to siphon the water out. It's much more effective than a hand-pump siphon at getting out the last bit of water from the bottom.

Marconis, I started out like you, then I put in the tube. It's worth it, evaporation won't cut it.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> Thanks for the great advice everyone. I will take it all into consideration. One final question.
> 
> Is such an environment harmful to the well-being of my frog? Like any animal, their environment either aids in an emulation of their natural behaviors, or a complete dissociation from those behaviors. *Could this dying environment with a lack of good cover affect her health, perhaps in physiological terms?* The reason I ask is because I am going to be unable to do all this for another 2-3 weeks. Finals are approaching, I am working 19 hours a weekend, and I am also in the process of setting up a 55g planted aquarium. So, I am pretty busy.
> 
> Thanks all.


Yes, it could induce stress-related illness. 
Put her in a temp. quarantine (QT) tank with lots of big magnolia leaves for cover while you redo it. Petco has them for $10. Put a piece of plexiglass over it and you're done.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Whoops, just replied to the email notification instead of in here 

Alright. I actually just remembered that I have a spare 10g at home, so I may just set that up gradually and then transfer her over when it's ready. That's the best way to go about it for me I guess. 

*Edit* Only $9 for 8 quarts of ABG? Nice! I'll go ahead and order it tomorrow to get this underway ASAP. 8 quarts is definitely enough for a 10g, right?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> Whoops, just replied to the email notification instead of in here
> 
> Alright. I actually just remembered that I have a spare 10g at home, so I may just set that up gradually and then transfer her over when it's ready. That's the best way to go about it for me I guess.
> 
> *Edit* Only $9 for 8 quarts of ABG? Nice! I'll go ahead and order it tomorrow to get this underway ASAP. 8 quarts is definitely enough for a 10g, right?


I'd get 2 or 3 bags as they don't seem to be packed by volume, or they use a different measurement system than I'm used to. 
The '8 quarts' seems to be about enough to fill up two-thirds of a gallon milk jug with substrate.
But, it's good stuff.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

stagnant, soggy substrate is just begging for fugal and bacterial issues. You definitely dont need to spend the money for ABG mix, you can make your own substrate very cheaply, using ingredients that will facilitate drainage.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogparty said:


> stagnant, soggy substrate is just begging for fugal and bacterial issues. You definitely dont need to spend the money for ABG mix, you can make your own substrate very cheaply, using ingredients that will facilitate drainage.


I think Doug pointed out this site, OFE International Web Page , where you can obtain all the ingredients for ABG mix yourself in bulk. The recipe for Atlanta Botanical Garden Mix is posted online if you search for it. There is probably a still-cheaper way though, but I like the diversity of the ingredients in the ABG mix (which is more for valuable plants). You could get away with just Jiffy Mix and sphagnum moss over that, most likely, for the philodendrons.

If you happen to take on this venture and sell the ABG substrate on here at a good price, I'll be buying. I have about 50 plantlets of B. cathcartii coming up and not a lot of soil to start them in...need more pots too...


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

I appreciate you pointing that out, but I am going to order the ABG mix anyway. I don't have much time to be mixing stuff and what not; just want something that's good to go. I'm going to use 2 bags and buy a small bag of LECA to add on top of what I have now. 

Is a tube that would allow a siphon to be inserted into really necessary? If so, could someone provide a link that shows how to go about using one of these?

Thanks all. You're the best.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Marconis said:


> Is a tube that would allow a siphon to be inserted into really necessary? If so, could someone provide a link that shows how to go about using one of these?
> 
> Thanks all. You're the best.


Absolutely! You need a way to get your water out. I choose to use a drilled drain myself but you have to be able to get that old water out now and then.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Ha, alright. Doug, do you know of any examples that I could look at to see how it's done? I am having a difficult time envisioning it in my head.

Siphoning won't be an issue, anyway. I have a Python that I use with my aquariums that makes water changes simple, so this should be as well.

Thanks


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Yeah, if you don't drill a hole in the bottom of the tank for drainage, you'll need a tube in the tank that goes to the bottom. Be sure not to mount it flush to the bottom or no water can get into it .
The Tom's Aqua-Lifter Dosing pump is very simple to use---it has one intake port and one outtake port. I got a one-way air-pump valve for under a dollar (you can find it in the fish aisle) from Petsmart which prevents any sediment from entering the pump as it sucks the water up and spits it out the outtake side. It is much more efficient at taking the water out than a hand-siphon. 
You will understand how to use it when you order it, I don't know of any caresheets about it.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> Yeah, if you don't drill a hole in the bottom of the tank for drainage, you'll need a tube in the tank that goes to the bottom. Be sure not to mount it flush to the bottom or no water can get into it .
> The Tom's Aqua-Lifter Dosing pump is very simple to use---it has one intake port and one outtake port. I got a one-way air-pump valve for under a dollar (you can find it in the fish aisle) from Petsmart which prevents any sediment from entering the pump as it sucks the water up and spits it out the outtake side. It is much more efficient at taking the water out than a hand-siphon.
> You will understand how to use it when you order it, I don't know of any caresheets about it.


I trust you that I'll understand it when I order it. If I don't, that's what you guys are for, ha. How much is it? Sorry if someone has referenced to it already, there's a lot of information on here so I tend to lose track . Tomorrow, definitely, will be placing my order. Plan on getting this done next Saturday evening after work, I hope!

In the meantime, would anyone care to temporarily adopt my auratus? I feel terribly for her, I just want her to have a healthy environment. Thought I was doing everything right. She's been barely moving for a few days, but I attribute that to her holding eggs-she barely moves when this occurs.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> I trust you that I'll understand it when I order it. If I don't, that's what you guys are for, ha. How much is it? Sorry if someone has referenced to it already, there's a lot of information on here so I tend to lose track . Tomorrow, definitely, will be placing my order. Plan on getting this done next Saturday evening after work, I hope!
> 
> In the meantime, would anyone care to temporarily adopt my auratus? I feel terribly for her, I just want her to have a healthy environment. Thought I was doing everything right. She's been barely moving for a few days, but I attribute that to her holding eggs-she barely moves when this occurs.


She probably should be with a male so she can release those eggs. Frogs can suffer if they become egg-bound from not mating in awhile. Give her a soaking bowl in the meantime. She could be sitting still b/c of stress---the sooner you can get her in a small tank with a lot of nice leaf cover the better. 

Google search for Tom's Aqua-Lifter Dosing pump. It is pretty cheap. 

In the meantime, here is how I set up my first vert:


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Susan, I love your Ultra Nice Plant Image. I wish my plants were that nice!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

The light-green color is the icky, dirty water being siphoned out via the clear tubing (I think this needs to be purchased separately from the pump). 
It gets pumped out into a jar (do not toss outside, use to water houseplants instead).


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Thank you very much for all of the great information, it is greatly appreciated!

I didn't know that about the females...nobody ever informed me of that :-\.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

This is kind of embarrassing, but that's a bit too expensive for me. I'm a college student, have to pay bills and am investing in an AC quite soon. So, anywhere that I can avoid "unncessary" costs, I will. It is listed at like $14, and that, along with ABG mix, more LECA, more plants, and shipping, I am looking at something way past my budget. I also have two aquariums to fund. 

I know you say that the hand siphoning is less efficient, but it'll have to suffice, unfortunately. I'll just buy a plastic tube, keep it in a little hole, not mount it, and then just pull it up a little when I need to siphon. There is really that much water under the substrate? That's pretty incredible. The only reason I ask is because* I have never visibly seen water build up along the LECA balls or anything.
*
Please keep the advice coming.

Oh, and also, can I use this in conjunction with LECA balls? I am not sure if they are the same thing or not, but either way they look the same and I don't see why it'd matter. 
http://www.joshsfrogs.com/substrate/hydroton/hydroton-3l-8-16-mm.html

EDIT

Okay. So, I guess I will go to Home Depot or something to buy some cheap low-light plants and keep them on my fire escape until the ABG mix comes. I'm looking to get philodendrons again, but not pothos this time. I'd prefer two more species of plant that will grow well under a 6700K 15W bulb. Any recommendations?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

If you leave a corner exposed in your viv to make a little pond its really easy tosiphon the water out. I LOVE the python siphons, and theres no reson not to use it for your dart tank. Just gotta have an area where it can get to the bottom of the viv to really get the water area low


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Cool. I don't think I'm gonna make a pond, but do the plastic drain tube thing.

One thing I'm confused about, is I can't gather in my brain how much water actually gets into the false bottom. Is that my downfall right there? Is my current soil holding so much of the moisture that it isn't going down into the LECA balls? Like I've said, I've never seen water down there.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Could be your soil is holding too much moisture and it's not draining through like it should. I like to start my vivs out with some standing water in the bottom. It might be only a 1/4 inch or so. This will help to keep your overall humidity level up.
For your siphon, you don't need anything fancy. A section of clear hose will suffice.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> She probably should be with a male so she can release those eggs. Frogs can suffer if they become egg-bound from not mating in awhile. Give her a soaking bowl in the meantime. She could be sitting still b/c of stress---the sooner you can get her in a small tank with a lot of nice leaf cover the better.
> 
> Google search for Tom's Aqua-Lifter Dosing pump. It is pretty cheap.
> 
> In the meantime, here is how I set up my first vert:


As I recall, Marconis's beautiful auratus was un-identified and he was advised to not breed her because of that. What about a temporary beau and culling the eggs?


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Could be your soil is holding too much moisture and it's not draining through like it should. I like to start my vivs out with some standing water in the bottom. It might be only a 1/4 inch or so. This will help to keep your overall humidity level up.
> For your siphon, you don't need anything fancy. A section of clear hose will suffice.


Figured as such. Like I said, I've got a Python so all I need is a tube for the substrate.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Marconis said:


> Cool. I don't think I'm gonna make a pond, but do the plastic drain tube thing.
> 
> One thing I'm confused about, is I can't gather in my brain how much water actually gets into the false bottom. Is that my downfall right there? Is my current soil holding so much of the moisture that it isn't going down into the LECA balls? Like I've said, I've never seen water down there.


its likely because the water is all the way up to the top of the leca, and into your substrate. Heres an advantage to the false bottom, so you can see just where the level is at at all times. LECA also wicks water UP into your substrate.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

frogparty said:


> its likely because the water is all the way up to the top of the leca, and into your substrate. Heres an advantage to the false bottom, so you can see just where the level is at at all times. LECA also wicks water UP into your substrate.


Nope, there literally is NO water at all in the LECA. 

Hydroton 3L (8/16 mm) - Hydroton - Substrate

Will this line a 10g nicely? Or do I need another bag.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Some may argue, but Frogparty is so right. A true false bottom is so much better! The only advantage to LECA is that it's easy.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Some may argue, but Frogparty is so right. A true false bottom is so much better! The only advantage to LECA is that it's easy.


What kind of false bottom should I set up then? Quick because I need to put my JF order in by 4 to have it ship today 


EDIT- Just doing this:

"My two cents? Redo it. 2 inches of false bottom or LECA with Earthfrogs drain tube to prevent a buildup of water. Fiberglass window screen over that. One to three inches of ABG mix over that. One or two inches of leaf litter over that"

Placing order now. Thanks for all the help.


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## mikefromearth (Feb 1, 2011)

Good call.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

In the future, look into the egg crate light diffusor false bottoms. They end up being lighter, and in my opinion, allow for an easier way to determine water build up below the substrate. If you build it right, you can then fill in around the edges of it with pumice or gravel to hide it from view, but I always make mine visible from the back of the viv, so you can see exactly where the water level is. I always build little ponds into a corner of my viv, and thats where I siphon water from. However, with my new build, Im putting a bulkhead in the bottom of the viv to drain excess water, and will just have a solid substrate layer with no pond at all. Ensuring you have an inch or so gap between the bottom of the substrate and the top of the water will pay big dividends in keeping your soil from going soggy and anaerobic on you. Your plants will thank you, and so will your frogs


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

ABG mix comes tomorrow. I still need to get a drainage tube, and some new screen, so going to have to hit up the hardware store tomorrow. For drainage, can I use PVC or nylon tubing that has a larger width than my siphon? 

In terms of drainage, I am thinking I will leave an area in the far-middle-left of my viv. I will leave a space without LECA, cut a hole in the screen, and put the tubing through with it sticking a little bit out of the substrate. Then I'll just pull it up a tiny bit as I am using my Python to remove water. Like I said, I've never once seen water in my LECA area, so I'm hoping the ABG mix will finally provide adequate drainage.

Does Petco carry Hyrdoton/LECA balls? I was originally going to use what I have now, but I don't feel like digging them out of soil and I want to be able to transfer my frog from viv to viv. 

No leaf litter yet. In the mean time I will line the bottom with leaf clippings from the old plants. As for plants in the new viv, I am sticking with Philodenrons and Pothos. Simple plants that never gave me any trouble, and I like the density they create.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

It would probably be better to use leaves from a source where no pesticides were used. Did you use soap and water to clean the leaves first before putting them in the viv, or just the bleach treatment?
If neither, the plants need cleaning first to remove pesticides since you wouldn't want your microfauna eating the plants and passing it on to your frogs. 
(I'm not sure on this, but I thought putting a great deal of green leaves down would raise the carbon dioxide levels drastically, causing frogs to asphyxiate, and also release too much nitrogen. Can anyone confirm this?)


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

I didn't clean the leaves at all, as they are from plants growing in my viv. I won't use them if it can cause that.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> It would probably be better to use leaves from a source where no pesticides were used. Did you use soap and water to clean the leaves first before putting them in the viv, or just the bleach treatment?
> If neither, the plants need cleaning first to remove pesticides since you wouldn't want your microfauna eating the plants and passing it on to your frogs.
> (I'm not sure on this, but I thought putting a great deal of green leaves down would raise the carbon dioxide levels drastically, causing frogs to asphyxiate, and also release too much nitrogen. Can anyone confirm this?)


Susan, I don't know about Carbon Dioxide but I can confirm it is a bad practice. It can release Nitrogen in amounts large enough to burn/poison your plants. For example, when composting, you use more brown materials, like dead leaves, than green materials, like fresh lawn clippings or veggie scraps.
Marconis, when we say leaf litter, we are talking about long lasting, dead, brown leaves from trees. The best choices are: Magnolia, Oak, Live Oak (referring to a type of Oak, NOT living oak leaves), and Indian Almond.
On your drainage "standpipe", PVC is the norm. If you notch the bottom, or cut the bottom at an angle, it won't plug up against the glass.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Susan, I don't know about Carbon Dioxide but I can confirm it is a bad practice. It can release Nitrogen in amounts large enough to burn/poison your plants. For example, when composting, you use more brown materials, like dead leaves, than green materials, like fresh lawn clippings or veggie scraps.
> Marconis, when we say leaf litter, we are talking about long lasting, dead, brown leaves from trees. The best choices are: Magnolia, Oak, Live Oak (referring to a type of Oak, NOT living oak leaves), and Indian Almond.
> On your drainage "standpipe", PVC is the norm. If you notch the bottom, or cut the bottom at an angle, it won't plug up against the glass.


Yeah, I know what leaf litter is, just wanted an alternative until I could get some. I live in NYC so I can only get it when I go out to Long Island; even then it's hard to find. 

I went ahead and bought PVC. Cutting it is unnecessary, I'll just have it stand there and pull it up a little out of the substrate when I'm siphoning. 

Thanks.

PS: Does anyone know if Petco sells Hydroton/Clay balls/LECA?


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

If anyone would like 8 quarts of ABG mix, please private message me.
See this thread as to why:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...nt/67949-my-beautiful-auratus-has-passed.html


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> If anyone would like 8 quarts of ABG mix, please private message me.
> See this thread as to why:
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...nt/67949-my-beautiful-auratus-has-passed.html


Sorry for your loss. 

Something else I would encourage you to do is to do a bleach treatment on your plants as recommended---many of those chain stores use untreated city water on the plants. 
I know you're heartbroken---I lost a frog my first try, too, but you can only go up from here!


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

Well I'm not using the plants anymore, so I'm not going to do that. I gave them to my brother.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Marconis said:


> Well I'm not using the plants anymore, so I'm not going to do that. I gave them to my brother.


OK, I was just recommending that if you changed your mind on doing a dart viv again. Take care.


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## Marconis (Jul 11, 2010)

That makes sense. Sorry if I came off as cold!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry for your loss Nick. We've all lost frogs, often through no fault of your own. Please don't beat yourself up over it.
I hope you'll come back sometime and try again. This time you'll know where to get frogs from any of the many breeders and hobbiest breeders here on the board. You'll get a better frog that way.


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