# Why is it bad to make money off breeding frogs?



## Roadrunner

A statement in another thread makes me think there is an underlying view that anyone making money from breeding or importing frogs is bad or shady for lack of a better word.

Personally, I think it gives more time for the person to spend time w/ their frogs and really get to know them if they arent just putting in the 15 minutes a day. 
NAAC made over $5000 for conservation this year from vendors and hobbyists.
If they weren`t worth money there wouldn`t be an effort to bring them in as it wouldn`t be able to be done.
If they are valued by the locals they will try to protect them. 

cons:
importers try to sell them for $10 over what they paid because people want them but the importers usually can`t keep them alive and people always go for the cheapest untreated animals.

SOME people breed them just for money which is in line w/ the above statement.
People jump in w/out researching at all if they are just interested in producing an animal that has a dollar value.

I`m sure there is many more pros and cons, just wanted to get this started.

I don`t think it`s inherently bad to make money off animals. Obviously or i wouldn`t be doing what I am. It provides a job, which is not easy to find nowadays and it`s skilled work. 
I`ve seen, over 12 years, the people who buy cheap animals. I didn`t make it that way but people value animals more, take batter care of them, put more thought into their purchase when it`s more expensive. My idea of a marketing ploy is selling an animals for the cost of 2 weeks food.

And from my experience, aposematic morphs will always be a problem as almost all importers and vendors are going to sell different colors at different values and people will choose like colors because they like those colors. You can`t force people to buy different colors if they don`t want them.

And to answer JP from that thread:

So you also know how much it is for a kilowatt hour in Fla and how much it costs for rent/mortgage, ac, lighting, meds, and you can also value the time someone spends medicating and feeding those animals, esp if it takes a year to sell that shipment.
Last year a designated port permit($100), import permit($100), Each Cites application($100), $214? for each inspection, shipping(we drove luckily) for 2 shipments because of delays $500/shipment for cb. What about plane tix to go down and give advice on proper care and maintanence Not to mention losses on imports. The time to take good pictures to let people hand pick their animals. The time spent on the phone educating buyers. Credit card and paypal fees, insurance, phone, website, advertising, taxes. You`ve got some big ones to think you can criticize the amount people charge for their time. Esp the importer who took the labels from blue, green and red pumilio to actual locations. 
So basically your saying you`d open an aldi`s instead of a specialty store or skip all taxes and such so you could offer a "reasonable" price! Sounds like your talking about smuggling rather than bringing in a quality frog. Quality takes time, quality takes money. Cutting corners produces an inferior product at a reduced price!

Oh ya, and it`s not like this is electricity, good food, gas, shelter, etc. which people need. These are frogs. There are other people selling them. When someone buys them and breeds them there will be another supply. It`s not a monopoly. When you breed them and depending on how much care you give them you can then put a price on your time and efforts.


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## Malaki33

Hey Aaron,

I don't know which thread made you think to post this. I don't think there are many who think it is bad to make money on the frogs you sell, but like I posted in the thread regarding shipping and such, I don't think people understand what expenses are expelled for keeping frogs. Like I said if it was a buisness for me I would try to make money myself, this is America and free enterprise is the way.


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## PumilioTurkey

I wonder how frog expos would be able to exist if the majority thought of it in a bad way.

I mean expos are basically there for people to buy their animals right?

the same with the frog expos here in Europe. it basically revolves around people bringing their froglets for sale.

why should someone breed ie Pumilio and them give them away for free or 20 dollars?

most of the time I'd say it doesnt even create profit since you need to think about lighting, water and food. especially food.


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## MonarchzMan

As is custom, you've totally misinterpreted what my issue is.

As Mitch said, making money is not an issue (although, most folks know that the money is in the supplies, not the actual frogs), it's grossly overcharging that I have issue with. There is no reason why one frog should be $300 and another frog, from the same shipment, is $50. Especially given the fact that they're not brought in 4 or 5 at a time. It's just greed, and that is bad for the frogs because it encourages smuggling.

If there were reason to charge $300 because half of the sales are going back to conservation of the frogs themselves, then perhaps it would be justified. But the simple truth is that, for the majority of cases, that is not the case.

And I would suggest not speaking about local values because having dealt QUITE A BIT with the locals, I can tell you two things. First, most are not aware of the frogs at all (and are surprised when I tell them they're there) and the money is not getting back to them. Second, those that are aware of the frogs and their value in the US and Europe generally look at Americans and Europeans with distain because they come into their forests, take their frogs, and that's the last they're seen (again, money not getting back to the locals). Many times, and rightly so, locals feel used and cheated.

Make whatever argument you want, but in regards to Panama, money from these frogs are not going to conservation efforts. That much I am certain.


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## MonarchzMan

PumilioTurkey said:


> why should someone breed ie Pumilio and them give them away for free or 20 dollars?


See, there are different things going on here. Captive breeding involves quite a bit of time (months to years), money, and investment, so compensating for that can be justified. But when importing, all that's really being done is the frogs are being grabbed, sometimes treated, and resold in large numbers. Quite different from captive breeding.


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## james67

aaron, i think its great that you and a select few others have found a way to turn something that your passionate about into a way to make income, its the american dream of sorts, to do what you love and make enough to live off of, and more if you desire. no one is saying frog, breeders, importers should get minimum wage (at least i'm not). its a niche market that allows for only a few, and i personally would love to be art of that, but its a dream. i remember when the escudos were sold at $350 with $50 going to TWI (if im not mistaken) which is better than most can say for the animals they sell.

some, like UE provide jobs for albeit a small # of locals, and purchase land for conservation, with part of their profits, and work deals to get animals that couldn't otherwise be obtained, by committing to the animals well being in captive breeding programs and the like.

ive talked with some importers for hours on end, and in at least one case an individual chartered a plane to take them to a remote village, since the locals had presumably told that individual that they had frogs to pick up, (the locals collected the frogs for profit in this case) and upon arriving the importer found less than 10 individuals. these kinds of expenses exist as well. the importer ate the cost of the plane ride for a handful of frogs commonly sold for $30-50. but i'm sure these instances are rare.

in any case if anyone should be criticized its the "D____F___Geckos" of the importing world that sell unlabeled pumilio for $60, with no treatment , and to those obviously not well suited for taking care of them, since they offer NO or false locality data, and i think with pumilio at least, the experienced keeper wouldnt purchase these animals.

JP: while i understand that the prices are distorted, i appreciate the expense of frogs like pumilio (even WC) because i think it tends to keep them out of the hands of the "here one day gone the next" hobbyists. an expensive frog means that the person will hopefully put greater importance on sustaining it healthily, and manage it in a more responsible way. any [email protected] kid can get $20-40 and go buy an auratus or two from the pet store, plop it in a tank and let it die because it was an impulse, and they dont really care, but the same kid will have to work for the $100-200-300 that each pum from a reputable breeder / importer costs and therefore (in theory) should have a greater respect and sense of pride in the animal. i know when i spend that amount of $ on a frog and it takes food off my table, or put ramen noodles on it instead of a nice meal, i appreciate the hell out of that frog. i had to to make the sacrifices that led to its purchase.

just my 2cents
james


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## NathanB

Aaron,
because I want free frogs, and no one can make money off giving me them for free.

When people say that I don't think they are referring to you and the sponsors here. Its more aimed at the meat markets that dont really care about the animals. (ex: pet stores and some resellers)


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## Woodsman

Over-priced frogs are keeping good people out of the hobby.


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## MonarchzMan

james67 said:


> JP: while i understand that the prices are distorted, i appreciate the expense of frogs like pumilio (even WC) because i think it tends to keep them out of the hands of the "here one day gone the next" hobbyists. an expensive frog means that the person will hopefully put greater importance on sustaining it healthily, and manage it in a more responsible way. any [email protected] kid can get $20-40 and go buy an auratus or two from the pet store, plop it in a tank and let it die because it was an impulse, and they dont really care, but the same kid will have to work for the $100-200-300 that each pum from a reputable breeder / importer costs and therefore (in theory) should have a greater respect and sense of pride in the animal. i know when i spend that amount of $ on a frog and it takes food off my table, or put ramen noodles on it instead of a nice meal, i appreciate the hell out of that frog. i had to to make the sacrifices that led to its purchase.
> 
> just my 2cents
> james


In a perfect world, you'd be right, but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I've seen numerous people get into the hobby and three months later, they've unloaded thousands of dollars and have many species of frogs covering many morphs, and then several months later, frogs die for one reason or another, and that doesn't faze them as they will go out and buy more.

Unfortunately, responsible or not, if a person wants a frog, a price is not going to deter them. I do see where your coming from, but in my experience, I've not really seen that happen. Sometimes, perhaps, but for many, not really. Fortunately, some people do get onto Dendroboard and are advised that something like a pumilio may not be the best choice for a first frog, but do all folks do that? Not at all. There are many people that don't go to Dendroboard or other sites to ask about difficulty keeping a frog.


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## EricM

That's like saying Ferraris keep good drivers off the road.

Even if everyone kept the same species and morph we as humans would find some trait to make a frog rare or "special", something material to make us feel important or stroke our own ego. Like the green auratus with only one splotch on the back that looks like Oprah. Humans can't help it and it is unavoidable. IF everyone kept lehmanni and no one had green a black auratus we would be clammering over the imported auratus for $500 each.

I've kept frogs over 20 years and as my collection has gotten bigger it's harder to make any profit, unless I just kept auratus, azureus, luecs and tincts; to fuel the pet trade. Luckily I keep what I like and it's a hobby first for me. I make way more money on imitator than I ever will on histrionicus or pumilio for that fact. 

humans are wierd, that's why I spend so much time with frogs
Eric


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## Philsuma

Woodsman said:


> Over-priced frogs are keeping good people out of the hobby.


Hi Richard,

I strongly disargee with your statement.

The frog hobby has the most affordable selection of "starter" animals, second only to the freshwater tropical fish hobby IMO.

Auratus, most Tincs, some thumbs are well priced, affordable, easy to keep and easy to find CB.

I see no reason why *anyone *cannot immediately enter the dart frog hobby, be happy and enjoy good results with affordable animals.


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## Malaki33

Philsuma said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> I strongly disargee with your statement.
> 
> The frog hobby has the most affordable selection of "starter" animals, second only to the freshwater tropical fish hobby IMO.
> 
> Auratus, most Tincs, some thumbs are well priced, affordable, easy to keep and easy to find CB.
> 
> I see no reason why *anyone *cannot immediately enter the dart frog hobby, be happy and enjoy good results with affordable animals.


I have to agree with Phil here. Pumillio, Histrionicus, Lehmanni etc. Are not the frogs a entry level frogger should even consider, and I know that most here wouldnt even sell those kinds of frogs to a begginer in the first place. There are tons of frogs that are entry level and very reasonable priced (when I started it was with Leucs and Imitators). The "over priced frogs" being referred to are frogs for experienced froggers who can afford them and don't mind paying the prices. Not all of us drive Mercedes, and if we do indeed want to we will save to buy one. Same goes with frogs. There are many I want, and realize I can't afford but that doesnt keep me out of the hobby!


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## Woodsman

I have been in the hobby for 13 years (not as long as some, but a good amount of time), so I am not only referring to "newbies" and "starter" frogs here. There definitely seems to be a group of guys who are in this right now for the cash and not so much for the frogs (again, comment not referring to anyone in particular). Is this the new "Mink ranching" craze or are we dedicated to being responsible owners and perpetuating the hobby?

All of our mouths water (mine included!) for the "latest and greatest" imports and it looks like some are mortgaging their houses to pay for them. Is ANY frog really worth a thousand dollars?

I produce a lot of frogs and trade a lot of them for other frogs I want in my collection. I personally think that barter is the best way to go (especially as it creates friendships that purchases just can't).

There are thousands of associations in the U.S. for people who have commercial interests in breeding things like purebred dogs, Alpacas, Emus, etc. Perhaps there should be a separate venue for people who have the interest to work on dart frogs as a business. I'd still like to think that most here are still in the "hobbyist" class.

Finally, D.t. azureus was the first frog I owned and they are still just about my favorite frog. I like to say that if Noah invited me onto the ark and said I could only bring one frog (or two), it would be an Azureus. I love breeding them and getting them to people just getting into the hobby. A beautiful frog that is pretty easy to keep and breed.

Richard.


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## gluedl

> humans are wierd, that's why I spend so much time with frogs


 



> JP: while i understand that the prices are distorted, i appreciate the expense of frogs like pumilio (even WC) because i think it tends to keep them out of the hands of the "here one day gone the next" hobbyists. an expensive frog means that the person will hopefully put greater importance on sustaining it healthily, and manage it in a more responsible way. any [email protected] kid can get $20-40 and go buy an auratus or two from the pet store, plop it in a tank and let it die because it was an impulse, and they dont really care, but the same kid will have to work for the $100-200-300 that each pum from a reputable breeder / importer costs and therefore (in theory) should have a greater respect and sense of pride in the animal. i know when i spend that amount of $ on a frog and it takes food off my table, or put ramen noodles on it instead of a nice meal, i appreciate the hell out of that frog. i had to to make the sacrifices that led to its purchase.


At least that system keeps away some/most(?) of the unserious ones, who are generally the first to complain about prices. only the super rich os super stupid will be able waste their money and the lives of animals.


Why would anybody condemn another because he's making money out of frogs? What about horses, dogs, rats,...,goldfishes?

If your doing your job correctly then a high price is not a bad thing. Especially when we are all keeping animals that might not exist in the wild in a few years (and I am not encouraging more WC imports here). But someone who keeps his bloodlines pure, keeps a logbook, threats frogs, etc has my deepest respect. And as an enthusiast I am willing to pay for that quality, even if it hurts the wallet, because it has something to do with reliability. 

As a european (that really likes it around here, can't stress that out enough ) I must admit that I am suprised about the prices you guys are willing to pay for the accessoires. A 36" exo with background for 250$, only to throw away the backgroung and make a new one from scratch, come on??? These are not even PDF specific tanks, they have to be adapted. And don't tell me that's because the PDF hobby is small, these cages are designed for herps in general. And I guess this market is not that different/smaller in the US then here. 

What I am trying to say, is that you are very lucky to have Understory and Co... We do not have anybody similar around here to my knowledge. Pay for the quality frogs, leave the others overpriced alone and try to save money while building your viv, as there seems to be ground to play here.

And to finish: each hobby done properly costs money. When you buy a good instrument you pay the price, you want to do some sports right, you pay for the widgets you need, you want jewelry from Italy or Paris, you pay the price and are not even allowed to ask for it... Why should frogs be cheap, when we all know what amount of work is needed to have them on the market.

Maybe I just pulled some more oil over the fire. Sorry if I did, just my 2 pence.

Have a nice day


gluedl


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## stemcellular

EricM said:


> That's like saying Ferraris keep good drivers off the road.
> 
> Even if everyone kept the same species and morph we as humans would find some trait to make a frog rare or "special", something material to make us feel important or stroke our own ego. Like the green auratus with only one splotch on the back that looks like Oprah. Humans can't help it and it is unavoidable. IF everyone kept lehmanni and no one had green a black auratus we would be clammering over the imported auratus for $500 each.
> 
> I've kept frogs over 20 years and as my collection has gotten bigger it's harder to make any profit, unless I just kept auratus, azureus, luecs and tincts; to fuel the pet trade. Luckily I keep what I like and it's a hobby first for me. I make way more money on imitator than I ever will on histrionicus or pumilio for that fact.
> 
> humans are wierd, that's why I spend so much time with frogs
> Eric


Very well said on all accounts.


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## frogparty

As a hobbyist I look more for trades for other frogs/plants than money. 
HOWEVER I realize I would not have access to the frogs I do without the help of breeders/importers.
The $of a frog is only determined by what the market will bear. If the benedictas came in and noone bought them for $400, theyd get cheaper until people bought them. I see no difference between this and any other animal hobby, and we certainly aernt seeing any $10,000 frogs like we do ball pythons. 
Many of the more delicate and exotic monitor lizards command the same prices histos do.
Im sure in the reef hobby there are corals, fish, inverts etc that cost a comparable price too. If no one pays the price its set at, the price drops. Resellers dont want product hanging around for long because maintenance and upkeep in time supplies and space often exceeds the value of the animal being sold.
We are also seeing a variety of newly available animals hitting our markets. These as new imports havent had the opportunity to become established in breeder colonies here yet. In these cases demand is outstripping supply and prices are high. As these become more established, prices come down. Varaderos and Vanzos are perfect examples.
I definitely dont think irts wrong to make money breeding frogs! If I could do it as a job, I would


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## Chris Miller

MonarchzMan said:


> There is no reason why one frog should be $300 and another frog, from the same shipment, is $50. Especially given the fact that they're not brought in 4 or 5 at a time. It's just greed, and that is bad for the frogs because it encourages smuggling.
> 
> If there were reason to charge $300 because half of the sales are going back to conservation of the frogs themselves, then perhaps it would be justified. But the simple truth is that, for the majority of cases, that is not the case.


I know this specific example was related to Panama but it doesn't hold true in all cases, see below...



frogparty said:


> The $of a frog is only determined by what the market will bear. If the benedictas came in and noone bought them for $400, theyd get cheaper until people bought them. I see no difference between this and any other animal hobby, and we certainly aernt seeing any $10,000 frogs like we do ball pythons.
> {snip}
> Varaderos and Vanzos are perfect examples.
> I definitely dont think irts wrong to make money breeding frogs! If I could do it as a job, I would


The way I see it (and by no means Understory's position), R. benedicta needs to be $400 a frog in order to make up for the other frogs that Mark couldn't get into the US hobby before the Europeans did, like with illegally collected vanzolinii and varadero imitator. Even with the benedicta, there were already some in the US. If he can't stay profitable or break even then we lose him, the business model fails and we are stuck like the rest of the animal hobbies. Understory is a jumping off point, his success will get others to follow the same plan. Just like in any other business, successful innovators will soon have competitors trying to beat them at their own game.


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## Jellyman

It is certainly not a bad thing to make some cash. If it was then breeders would not purposely limit the number of offspring or pressure smaller breeders to charge more for their frogs. I've heard comments from breeders about how they could saturate the market and drive the price into the ground and have chosen not to and I have heard from smaller breeders that they get PM's from the larger breeders when they post frogs for sale below the invisable line of what frogs "should" cost. If someone is willing to pay more for a red frog then a green frog even if they are technically the same frog who is it for anyone to decide if they are right or wrong. It is business.


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## jig1

frogparty said:


> I definitely dont think irts wrong to make money breeding frogs! If I could do it as a job, I would


I think there are many people who feel the same way. I think there is nothing wrong with selling frogs for a living. Why should someone not be allowed to do or be considered bad for doing something they love.


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## dendro-dude

A lot of good opinions here

Eric- I'm gonna keep this "humans are wierd, that's why I spend so much time with frogs"  

I believe that it is certaintly not bad to make money off of frogs (I mean, look we got puppy mills and all sorts of money makig off other animals) But I do believe it is bad to be breeding and selling frogs just for the money (assuming, they aren't keeping them in the best conidtion)

If you love it and the animal you are working with, I have no problem giving you money for your work in trade for a healthy beautiful frog. 
I gladly give good breeders my money, the ones who do not give much concern to the animals welfare, i do not.

I had no problem giving underthecanopyfarms $200 for my sexed and breeding pair of Tincs. They were helpful, gave great info, they were very into the frogs and were willing to give me a deal on my purchase (i bought my pair of Tincs, some supplies, and my brother purchased a small tank and two Azerues froglets)


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## MonarchzMan

Aurotaenia said:


> The way I see it (and by no means Understory's position), R. benedicta needs to be $400 a frog in order to make up for the other frogs that Mark couldn't get into the US hobby before the Europeans did, like with illegally collected vanzolinii and varadero imitator. Even with the benedicta, there were already some in the US. If he can't stay profitable or break even then we lose him, the business model fails and we are stuck like the rest of the animal hobbies. Understory is a jumping off point, his success will get others to follow the same plan. Just like in any other business, successful innovators will soon have competitors trying to beat them at their own game.


Understory is really the only example I can think of too, and it's because of that I think that it's more the exception than the rule. I would have no complaints at all if Understory's model was used more widely, but the sad fact is that it isn't.


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## frogparty

Oh Im definitely not judging UE for the price of the benedictas, just saying that if they HADNT sold at 400 bucks, they would most likely have been dropped to a lower price. The fact is that there are many froggers with the money to snatch up these beauties at that price when they become available, so its not really feasible to think they wouldn't have sold.


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## earthfrog

Selling frogs at a fair price is a good practice. There would be no healthy frogs without competitive pricing. There would be no good merchandise anywhere without this aspect, either. 

Treating humans in a fair way is a better practice. 

I will never love frogs more than humans even though they are much harder to like when they act rude. 

Let's remember that we each have our own business worked out and let naysayers speak until they're blue in the face---the wise man says:
"As a dream comes from much business, so the voice of a foolish man comes with words in great number."

This is not to say that every long-winded diatribe is foolish since it's necessary to use so-many-words to explain yourself sometimes. It just says that foolishness is a pattern of behavior marked by endless backlash and overwordiness. 

I believe in treating customers fairly, and I expect them to pay top dollar for the value of my frogs. If demand goes down, my prices will remain the same. If my prices fluctuate based on demand, I am bound to my business endeavor, but this doesn't mean others have the grounds to criticize that. 
Lately, I realize that if I'm criticized without cause, I don't take offense. There's no use arguing with someone who has 'already got it figured out'.
Be sure that you don't get in trouble for meddling, fellow froggers. I've been there before, and it ain't pretty. 
It's one thing to provide constructive criticism about another's breeding practice and quite another to try and tear down others without helping them. Criticism of a personal nature is a dish best served one-on-one with the person you have an issue with. 

I enjoy offering what little I have for the good of the frogs and of this conservation. I don't see myself as serving the hobby at large, but I guess I am. 
Take care of each other.


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## Boondoggle

I have always thought it was odd that making money in the frog community, while not overtly condemned, is subtly frowned upon. I can't think of another industry/hobby/pet community that is quite like it. I can only guess it's because we are aware of the frail state of our pets globally, we associate a profit with exploitation. I wish people were more careful about that association.

As far as animals being overpriced, I think "what they are really worth" is completely immaterial (nothing but respect, Monarch). Like every free market, sellers will charge what the market can bear. Even if everyone of us approached the hobby altruisticly, that wouldn't change. If any of us feel an animal is being overvalued, all we have to do is start breeding them and charge a value we feel they are worth. If we are providing a quality animal, the market will drop to match us. If we can't provide a quality animal for that price, then the original animals weren't overvalued, eh?

Now, misrepresenting animals, and ripping off the indiginous peoples...that's another matter altogether.

Keep what you like. Be stoked if your frogs pay for themselves. Trade whenever you can. Deal with captive bred when you are able. If you have wild caught or F1's then it's your responsibility to breed them and get their genes out there. Don't begrudge a vendor/importer without good reason. If you find out a seller is disreputable, never use them again. That's the way I roll.

Just some opinions...


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## edwardsatc

It IS acceptable to make money. Sell them for what you want. Ultimately, the consumer will determine whether those prices are fair and, therefore, determine your success or failure.

However, it IS NOT acceptable to come on to a hobbyist forum and continually complain about not being able to make money, point fingers at others for ones own business failings, complain about others overproducing or producing inferior frogs, ....... 

It IS acceptable to take responsibility for ones own business success or failings.

(comments not directed toward anyone in particular ... of course)


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## pl259

The opposing question is just as valid...

Is it bad to sell frogs at a loss or basically give them away? Neither this or making money is bad, IMO. This hobby is not defined by the possible market it creates. It's defined by the community of people. If the majority happen to be more traders than purchasers, so be it. 

YMMV,


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## Philsuma

pl259 said:


> If the majority happen to be more traders than purchasers, so be it.


This is not the case, though.....


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## araceae

Frogs are living, breathing, feeling animals.
It isnt right just to treat a living thing as merchandise. 
You should have frogs as a hobby, not a job, money isnt realy what should matter most.


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## Philsuma

araceae said:


> Frogs are living, breathing, feeling animals.
> It isnt right just to treat a living thing as merchandise.
> You should have frogs as a hobby, not a job, money isnt realy what should matter most.


What if I said there were less than 20 people in the US and Canada making any measurable profit, let alone a living, off of frogs>?


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## ESweet

Great discussion!! As much as I don't want to, I'm keeping quiet though =]


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## HunterB

I feel like I might be jumping into this conversation at a bad time and I have never sold frogs and at only 16 people will say what they want about me not knowing enough and not thinking it through.

I've kept reptiles for eight years and PDF's for four. I plan on doing this as a job and have been starting to be serious about it in the past two years and have been taking every science and business class available to me. I have been working for 3 years (since i got to high school) and know full well the work that goes into making $. I work on a farm in the cold, hot, bad weather, etc - 5 out of 7 days and believe me, it aint fun. But i do it because at some point, the money i put away from this will help my business and expands my collection now - more animals = more animals to breed = foundation of my future business. 

Now- sorry bout the life story but it helps explain my view, which some on here agree with and some dont

Can you make a profit off of JUST frogs? no, in the end, when the bills settle and u look at the end profits and losses, no. Believe me, i wish it was different but it isnt. If you want someone who is making a profit and in the PDF business look at their sites, they sell supplies and plants and what have you - you need to have something else besides JUST frogs. Everyone of them starts out selling frogs and quickly expands to plants and etc to staqy alive as a business. 
Why I say all this, is this - I honestly dont think you can say someone is charging a price for a frog out of greed. because, no matter what, they're not making a profit. Is the price inflated? maybe to you, but to them thats the price they chose. dont like it? move on. You dont have to buy from them. Example - would i like some chrome bassleri? you bet. Do i have the money? absolutely not, This doesnt mean i sit and think "damn inflated prices, thats greed and isnt fair" because thats there price, i could sit and complain but it doesnt change anything. 

My moral (if youd call it that) is this:
An importer (be them a good or bad one) still has to spend money to get the frogs. Do i support the scumbag types? absolutely not. but no matter what - in order to get a frog to you - that seller (vendor, importer, wholesaler, etc) still had to spend money at some point and therefore has the right to choose whatever price they want.


----------



## pl259

pl259 said:


> If the majority happen to be more traders than purchasers, so be it.





Philsuma said:


> This is not the case, though.....


Early on it was and I'd swag that trading currently accounts for better than 25% of frog acquisions. The current state of the economy works in favor of this. The majority of my acquisions are by trade whether direct or indirectly.


----------



## zBrinks

pl259 said:


> The majority of my acquisions are by trade whether direct or indirectly.


 Same here.


----------



## Boondoggle

araceae said:


> Frogs are living, breathing, feeling animals.
> It isnt right just to treat a living thing as merchandise.
> You should have frogs as a hobby, not a job, money isnt realy what should matter most.


That's my own personal approach because I find I am happier that way, but until the "Motivational Morality" police start enforcing things, you can't really tell other people what should matter to them. If others can make a profit, are not harming people or animals or animal populations, and are not misrepresenting their "product" then it doesn't really matter "why" they do it...that's just life in capitalist economy. 



Philsuma said:


> What if I said there were less than 20 people in the US and Canada making any measurable profit, let alone a living, off of frogs>?


It would be interesting to know how many people do, but I bet it's even lower.


----------



## zBrinks

Something to keep in mind - if someone, at some time, could not have made money off of frogs, chances are they wouldn't be here for us to enjoy.


----------



## Marty71

Personally I hope and pray that some of the more dedicated people/vendors in the hobby can make a profit. I think the best hope for the future of the frogs and the hobby in general is dependent on the success of these people. I've been around for 3.5 years and have already seen hundreds of people come and go. Maybe they wanted to make money, maybe it was an impulse, maybe their situation changed, whatever the reason they are long gone and hard to find, most likely leaving quite a few dead frogs in their wake. The backbone of the hobby seems to be the people that have found a way to either support their hobby or actually make a living doing it. When the rest of us buy up all the Matecho and then promptly kill them I take some comfort in knowing a few of them made it into the hands of people that will keep them going.


----------



## skylsdale

The most solid and committed people I know in the hobby are those who are simply interested in the frogs and do what they can to continue keeping them. It remains a hobby. Sometimes they sell some...sometimes they trade...sometimes they just give them away. It's not about profit/loss and how much they put into it--it's just about continuing to do what they enjoy, which sometimes includes sacrifices and sometimes includes a little extra. There are ebbs and flows and when it comes down to it, it's about their enjoyment of and interest in the frogs, and there really isn't a measureable bottom line for that. 

The longest lasting people I know in the hobby don't even know what the current going price is for the frogs they keep.

Is it wrong to make money on frogs? Absolutely not. But don't assume everyone is playing by the same rules and expectations you are, and don't get upset when they don't.


----------



## Taron

Aaron sounds like your a good person and thats all that matters. I personally thought about importing until I looked into the cost of shipping and such. For instance if I bought a thousand dollars in frogs shipping would be a thousand dollars. Everyone should keep this in mind and if you do see cheap frogs more than likely those were the ones that were not imported correctly. Nowadays everything cost more so the days of $15 imported frogs just isn't going to happen unless gasoline goes down and people quit needing money.

Just some more 2 cents.


----------



## UmbraSprite

I work in marketing for a large biotech company selling cervical cancer diagnostics. 

That job pays for Dartfrog Depot. There isn't profit...period. Unless you have run a business you likely have no idea all of the costs involved. It isn't like a hobbyist who sells their offspring. I simply don't have the free time to dedicate to padding my pockets with profit. 

Now you could argue I am just a poor businessman. I am not clueless. I keep the business because I love interacting with the community, sharing my experiences and helping people get started. I also know enough about business from what I do for a living (not frogs!) to know what it would take to make the business profitable.

I give HUGE kudos to the vendors here who have taken the leap to quit their regular jobs to make a go at living off of their business. I can tell you...they aren't taking any expensive vacations, buying new flat screen tv's or driving BMW's. What they are doing is busting their arses to stay afloat while doing something they love.



dendro-dude said:


> I had no problem giving underthecanopyfarms $200 for my sexed and breeding pair of Tincs. They were helpful, gave great info, they were very into the frogs and were willing to give me a deal on my purchase (i bought my pair of Tincs, some supplies, and my brother purchased a small tank and two Azerues froglets)


DD said it great here. When you are selling a product, it's isn't what comes in the box. That is a commodity in most cases. You can go to any sponsor on this board and find moss, fruit fly cups, etc. What makes one or another able to charge differently for their product is what comes with it. As Aaron mentioned, we often spend hours on the phone (after work...with gf's nagging and frogs waiting to be fed) to counsel customers on frog care, vivarium buiding etc. Some of us over stuff our bags and sell products for extremely low prices. You are paying for knowledge and special care you get from people who DO care about the animals and the community vs just dollars. If I wanted to pad my bank account I certainly wouldn't be investing my advertising here and competing with the many sponsors who have all driven the prices to rock bottom to stay competitive. 

If you think someone is getting rich...check the prices the sponsors charge vs the local Petsmart. Petsmart are the smart ones...making a profit. The rest of us are supporting the hobby because we love it and selling the products at rock bottom prices.

I have good relationships with most of the sponsors here. I know where they get their supplies and how much they pay. Buying 50 fruit fly cups? Your vendor is likely making maybe .05 cents per cup. That is $2.50 on your order. Remember they paid shipping costs, tax, and also pay for the space to store all of this stuff not to mention their time. So unless said vendor is moving 1000's of cups a month they aren't seeing the benefit. (by the way 1000 cups makes the vendor $50).

Having 17 years in this hobby and 3 as a vendor I can tell you the bickering of pricing is borderline insulting. You always have a choice but I would ask that you consider the difference between what you would pay at a retail outlet who is getting the product cheaper than the sponsors (huge bulk orders), knows less about the product or how to care for the animals (Petco has told me to feed darts frog pellets), what products will work best for you needs and last the longest.

Really...we get a great service from all the sponsors on this board and are incredible lucky to have a caring community and source vs what you see for other animal hobbies like reptiles (ala kingsnake.com) where buyer beware and good luck hearing back from the guy who sold you the $50 pumilio stressed from importation and full of parasites.

Sorry for the novel but really folks...show some appreciation for the time and effort given to helping you all get the best from this hobby for costs far below what you would find if they weren't around.


----------



## Philsuma

Nicely said Chris.


----------



## dendro-dude

Skylsdale- Nicely Said



UmbraSprite said:


> I keep the business because I love interacting with the community, sharing my experiences and helping people get started. I also know enough about business from what I do for a living (not frogs!) to know what it would take to make the business profitable.
> 
> I give HUGE kudos to the vendors here who have taken the leap to quit their regular jobs to make a go at living off of their business. I can tell you...they aren't taking any expensive vacations, buying new flat screen tv's or driving BMW's. What they are doing is busting their arses to stay afloat while doing something they love.
> 
> 
> 
> DD said it great here. When you are selling a product, it's isn't what comes in the box. That is a commodity in most cases. You can go to any sponsor on this board and find moss, fruit fly cups, etc. What makes one or another able to charge differently for their product is what comes with it. As Aaron mentioned, we often spend hours on the phone (after work...with gf's nagging and frogs waiting to be fed) to counsel customers on frog care, vivarium buiding etc. Some of us over stuff our bags and sell products for extremely low prices. You are paying for knowledge and special care you get from people who DO care about the animals and the community vs just dollars. If I wanted to pad my bank account I certainly wouldn't be investing my advertising here and competing with the many sponsors who have all driven the prices to rock bottom to stay competitive.
> 
> If you think someone is getting rich...check the prices the sponsors charge vs the local Petsmart. Petsmart are the smart ones...making a profit. The rest of us are supporting the hobby because we love it and selling the products at rock bottom prices.
> 
> I have good relationships with most of the sponsors here. I know where they get their supplies and how much they pay. Buying 50 fruit fly cups? Your vendor is likely making maybe .05 cents per cup. That is $2.50 on your order. Remember they paid shipping costs, tax, and also pay for the space to store all of this stuff not to mention their time. So unless said vendor is moving 1000's of cups a month they aren't seeing the benefit. (by the way 1000 cups makes the vendor $50).
> 
> Having 17 years in this hobby and 3 as a vendor I can tell you the bickering of pricing is borderline insulting. You always have a choice but I would ask that you consider the difference between what you would pay at a retail outlet who is getting the product cheaper than the sponsors (huge bulk orders), knows less about the product or how to care for the animals (Petco has told me to feed darts frog pellets), what products will work best for you needs and last the longest.
> 
> Really...we get a great service from all the sponsors on this board and are incredible lucky to have a caring community and source vs what you see for other animal hobbies like reptiles (ala kingsnake.com) where buyer beware and good luck hearing back from the guy who sold you the $50 pumilio stressed from importation and full of parasites.
> 
> Sorry for the novel but really folks...show some appreciation for the time and effort given to helping you all get the best from this hobby for costs far below what you would find if they weren't around.


Very well said, Chris. I aggree completly


----------



## Boondoggle

UmbraSprite said:


> I work in marketing for a large biotech company selling cervical cancer diagnostics.
> 
> That job pays for Dartfrog Depot. There isn't profit...period. Unless you have run a business you likely have no idea all of the costs involved. It isn't like a hobbyist who sells their offspring. I simply don't have the free time to dedicate to padding my pockets with profit.
> 
> Now you could argue I am just a poor businessman. I am not clueless. I keep the business because I love interacting with the community, sharing my experiences and helping people get started. I also know enough about business from what I do for a living (not frogs!) to know what it would take to make the business profitable.
> 
> I give HUGE kudos to the vendors here who have taken the leap to quit their regular jobs to make a go at living off of their business. I can tell you...they aren't taking any expensive vacations, buying new flat screen tv's or driving BMW's. What they are doing is busting their arses to stay afloat while doing something they love.
> 
> 
> 
> DD said it great here. When you are selling a product, it's isn't what comes in the box. That is a commodity in most cases. You can go to any sponsor on this board and find moss, fruit fly cups, etc. What makes one or another able to charge differently for their product is what comes with it. As Aaron mentioned, we often spend hours on the phone (after work...with gf's nagging and frogs waiting to be fed) to counsel customers on frog care, vivarium buiding etc. Some of us over stuff our bags and sell products for extremely low prices. You are paying for knowledge and special care you get from people who DO care about the animals and the community vs just dollars. If I wanted to pad my bank account I certainly wouldn't be investing my advertising here and competing with the many sponsors who have all driven the prices to rock bottom to stay competitive.
> 
> If you think someone is getting rich...check the prices the sponsors charge vs the local Petsmart. Petsmart are the smart ones...making a profit. The rest of us are supporting the hobby because we love it and selling the products at rock bottom prices.
> 
> I have good relationships with most of the sponsors here. I know where they get their supplies and how much they pay. Buying 50 fruit fly cups? Your vendor is likely making maybe .05 cents per cup. That is $2.50 on your order. Remember they paid shipping costs, tax, and also pay for the space to store all of this stuff not to mention their time. So unless said vendor is moving 1000's of cups a month they aren't seeing the benefit. (by the way 1000 cups makes the vendor $50).
> 
> Having 17 years in this hobby and 3 as a vendor I can tell you the bickering of pricing is borderline insulting. You always have a choice but I would ask that you consider the difference between what you would pay at a retail outlet who is getting the product cheaper than the sponsors (huge bulk orders), knows less about the product or how to care for the animals (Petco has told me to feed darts frog pellets), what products will work best for you needs and last the longest.
> 
> Really...we get a great service from all the sponsors on this board and are incredible lucky to have a caring community and source vs what you see for other animal hobbies like reptiles (ala kingsnake.com) where buyer beware and good luck hearing back from the guy who sold you the $50 pumilio stressed from importation and full of parasites.
> 
> Sorry for the novel but really folks...show some appreciation for the time and effort given to helping you all get the best from this hobby for costs far below what you would find if they weren't around.


I wish I had said that. Sincerely...well put.


----------



## Occidentalis

Very valid points Chris. The anal retentive reviewer in me wants to point out that .05 cents profit on each cup would mean selling 100 cups would net 5 cents profit. 

The only issue I have is with what seem to be people who have latched on to the market because of the prices set by the people who actually put the time in. They make or find the connections, buy large lots of frogs at low prices, then travel to shows or ship them all around. The low retention rate and high turnover would seem to make things very profitable. They advertise prices that are a little lower than the people who spend the time with the animals, and turnover increases. 

While this is no different than any other similar business venture, I find it to be "what's wrong with making money off frogs" - note the distinction between that and "what's wrong with making money off breeding frogs".

Hope that makes sense.
Alex


----------



## Philsuma

Occidentalis said:


> The only issue I have is with what seem to be people who have latched on to the market because of the prices set by the people who actually put the time in. They make or find the connections, buy large lots of frogs at low prices, then travel to shows or ship them all around. They advertise prices that are a little lower than the people who spend the time with the animals, and turnover increases.
> Hope that makes sense.
> Alex


Nice points as usual Alex.

There is a name for someone who "flips" frogs and doesn't breed them.

They are "Jobbers" and they exist in all exotic animal hobbies. Another nicer term may be "Broker". Not necessarily bad as they must take on expense risk in order to provide animals.

Bottom line though - the dart frog hobby community is small and while a newbie may make an initial mistake or purchase from someone that is less then steller.....the good people will always be there. Quality and hard work always lasts.


----------



## Woodsman

I agree with Alex here. Think about pure bred dogs (which can command VERY high prices). The real work of keeping the breeds healthy and vital is being done primarily be home-based breeders who work mostly with the family dogs.

The problem comes in when "profiteers" rush in and set-up puppy mills dedicated only to producing as many dogs as possible, no matter the abusive consequences to the dogs or the long-term health of the breeds.

So, when I say we should drive out the "profiteers", I am talking about the guys who DON'T breed frogs, but rather buy and sell and buy and sell in an endless cycle where we don't know from where the frogs come (or if they are even legal!!!), or their lineages or long-term health.

I like being a small breeder, selling or trading the frogs I BREED to other hobbyists who I get to know and these relationships (I think) are the best thing for the hobby in the long run. So, no, it's not bad to make money on frogs. It is bad to make money on BAD FROGS.

That was probably five or six cents, sorry. Richard.



Occidentalis said:


> Very valid points Chris. The anal retentive reviewer in me wants to point out that .05 cents profit on each cup would mean selling 100 cups would net 5 cents profit.
> 
> The only issue I have is with what seem to be people who have latched on to the market because of the prices set by the people who actually put the time in. They make or find the connections, buy large lots of frogs at low prices, then travel to shows or ship them all around. The low retention rate and high turnover would seem to make things very profitable. They advertise prices that are a little lower than the people who spend the time with the animals, and turnover increases.
> 
> While this is no different than any other similar business venture, I find it to be "what's wrong with making money off frogs" - note the distinction between that and "what's wrong with making money off breeding frogs".
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> Alex


----------



## Roadrunner

So it`s better that people value their vivariums more than there aniamals?

In Europe the value them little because they are smuggled often. They can go and get them whenever they want.

Do you realize that if you bring in 50 animals and sell them for 100% profit and you loose 10 you have to sell 20 to break even then you only make money on 30 of them. W/ live animals and hi risk you have to extend the profit or you will go out of business. Hi risk deserves hi profit if your good at it. The business in question doesn`t dump off animals at $10 over what they paid without treating or acclimating them, they sometime take up to a year to get rid of all their animals from an import. 

And this is being done w/ the governments o.k. 



MonarchzMan said:


> As is custom, you've totally misinterpreted what my issue is.
> 
> As Mitch said, making money is not an issue (although, most folks know that the money is in the supplies, not the actual frogs), it's grossly overcharging that I have issue with. There is no reason why one frog should be $300 and another frog, from the same shipment, is $50. Especially given the fact that they're not brought in 4 or 5 at a time. It's just greed, and that is bad for the frogs because it encourages smuggling.
> 
> If there were reason to charge $300 because half of the sales are going back to conservation of the frogs themselves, then perhaps it would be justified. But the simple truth is that, for the majority of cases, that is not the case.
> 
> And I would suggest not speaking about local values because having dealt QUITE A BIT with the locals, I can tell you two things. First, most are not aware of the frogs at all (and are surprised when I tell them they're there) and the money is not getting back to them. Second, those that are aware of the frogs and their value in the US and Europe generally look at Americans and Europeans with distain because they come into their forests, take their frogs, and that's the last they're seen (again, money not getting back to the locals). Many times, and rightly so, locals feel used and cheated.
> 
> Make whatever argument you want, but in regards to Panama, money from these frogs are not going to conservation efforts. That much I am certain.


----------



## Roadrunner

The separation of a gardener and a farmer is that a gardener gives away extra produce and a farmer sells food. Whether they make a profit at all is moot. As soon as you sell any frogs you yourself are a business, minus all the brick and mortar, website, w2 form, etc.

BTW, you can still make a meager living selling frogs, you just can`t do it selling to the public. I had to stop taking orders because I figured most of my time was spent w/ emails w/ no sales, going to shows to dispense 8 hours of info for $300 and a 40hr work day and "hobbyists" making $1100 sales at my tables(multiple hobbyists making anywhere from $400-1100 sales). Not complaining, simply stating the truth as my life is much more serene since I`ve stopped dealing w/ the public. For a while there the emails of "I`ll give you this much for your frogs and I want them delivered friday for saturday"( insert other "conditions" here) was really starting to get to me. I`m not angry anymore for any of those "offers" as it pushed me to change my business model. Thanks!



Woodsman said:


> I have been in the hobby for 13 years (not as long as some, but a good amount of time), so I am not only referring to "newbies" and "starter" frogs here. There definitely seems to be a group of guys who are in this right now for the cash and not so much for the frogs (again, comment not referring to anyone in particular). Is this the new "Mink ranching" craze or are we dedicated to being responsible owners and perpetuating the hobby?
> 
> All of our mouths water (mine included!) for the "latest and greatest" imports and it looks like some are mortgaging their houses to pay for them. Is ANY frog really worth a thousand dollars?
> 
> I produce a lot of frogs and trade a lot of them for other frogs I want in my collection. I personally think that barter is the best way to go (especially as it creates friendships that purchases just can't).
> 
> There are thousands of associations in the U.S. for people who have commercial interests in breeding things like purebred dogs, Alpacas, Emus, etc. Perhaps there should be a separate venue for people who have the interest to work on dart frogs as a business. I'd still like to think that most here are still in the "hobbyist" class.
> 
> Finally, D.t. azureus was the first frog I owned and they are still just about my favorite frog. I like to say that if Noah invited me onto the ark and said I could only bring one frog (or two), it would be an Azureus. I love breeding them and getting them to people just getting into the hobby. A beautiful frog that is pretty easy to keep and breed.
> 
> Richard.


----------



## Roadrunner

And one last thing:
I didn`t think they were talking about me, it was another importer/breeder that has raised the bar more than any other on importing pumilio, as far as care, locale, treating, legality etc. "Blue, red and green" pumilio used to come in for $300-400each the last time they came in and they werent treated, acclimated, etc. So Escudos coming in from where they are, with the care that was given, is raising the bar more than can be expected, from where it was.


----------



## Roadrunner

Edit to BTW:
That is if you live somehwere inexpensive and get your mtg. for less than most people pay for rent by building your own house, burn wood for heat, grow your own food and find food in your other recreational activities by hunting and fishing, use passive solar heating and cooling and can do a lot by yourself in your spare time to provide for yourself.
I don`t want anyone getting the wrong idea



frogfarm said:


> The separation of a gardener and a farmer is that a gardener gives away extra produce and a farmer sells food. Whether they make a profit at all is moot. As soon as you sell any frogs you yourself are a business, minus all the brick and mortar, website, w2 form, etc.
> 
> BTW, you can still make a meager living selling frogs, you just can`t do it selling to the public. I had to stop taking orders because I figured most of my time was spent w/ emails w/ no sales, going to shows to dispense 8 hours of info for $300 and a 40hr work day and "hobbyists" making $1100 sales at my tables(multiple hobbyists making anywhere from $400-1100 sales). Not complaining, simply stating the truth as my life is much more serene since I`ve stopped dealing w/ the public. For a while there the emails of "I`ll give you this much for your frogs and I want them delivered friday for saturday"( insert other "conditions" here) was really starting to get to me. I`m not angry anymore for any of those "offers" as it pushed me to change my business model. Thanks!


----------



## MonarchzMan

frogfarm said:


> So it`s better that people value their vivariums more than there aniamals?
> 
> In Europe the value them little because they are smuggled often. They can go and get them whenever they want.
> 
> Do you realize that if you bring in 50 animals and sell them for 100% profit and you loose 10 you have to sell 20 to break even then you only make money on 30 of them. W/ live animals and hi risk you have to extend the profit or you will go out of business. Hi risk deserves hi profit if your good at it. The business in question doesn`t dump off animals at $10 over what they paid without treating or acclimating them, they sometime take up to a year to get rid of all their animals from an import.
> 
> And this is being done w/ the governments o.k.


This thread is 5 pages long and you go back to page one to reply to me? Get over it. If you have issue with me, PM me. 

And you didn't ever cover why auratus can come in the same import as pumilio and be sold at less than $100, but the pumilio are $200+. I realize that bringing in animals is "high risk." There is no question about that. The question remains the differential pricing and overpricing. There is no business in question. Stop assuming that there is.

And the government can okay it, but it doesn't mean that it's right. Under the current system, governments totally ignore the fact that there are different populations of frogs. And that causes problems for the populations because right now, under the current system, it is okay to completely wipe out a population because the species as a whole is fine. It's for that reason, I think that I was only able to find 2 Robalos after two tries when several years earlier my adviser could find a dozen or more with one try. You should stop making the argument that because it's being done, that it's okay.


----------



## EricM

I'll tell you why auratus come in the same shipments and it applys to most shipments of exotic animals from all over.

When pumilio were first being exported the original terms were 20 pumilio with every 100 auratus. This was a way for the exporters to make a lot of money on "extras" being the auratus. It exploits what people want and all the facets of it, desire, greed, etc. 

It used to happen with Emerald tree boas out of Suriname, you want 6 of them then you got to take 100 Hyla ebraccata, 100 Hyla luecophyllata etc, etc.

This is why so many lesser animals flood the pet stores and subsequently the importance of the animal is compromised. Why spend resources (money, time, medications, proper housing) on an animal that comes in every few months and costs less than $10. It is a manifestation of the "throw away society" that we live in.

It' only when those cheap animals stop coming in and no one has dedicated the proper resources to keep them around that demand they increase in value, just look at the stelnezi toads for a glaring example.

Some thoughts
Eric


----------



## vugger#1

Wow this thread has been a good one up to the point that some of you have taken it. (WHY BATTLE ON THE PUBLIC PAGE WHEN YOU CAN JUST PM EACHOTHER?) For me you lost the respect that I am sure you deserve.

Anyway,
When I first seen the title of this thread I thought cool this is going to cover stuff like the do’s and do not’s or maybe the ethics of selling frogs on the DB. For some of us (or most) this is only a hobby and a great hobby at that, and if can pay for it’s self then great and if we can help someone along the way get started in the hobby by making deals trades or even giving stuff away then great. But don't expect the vendors and sponsor's to feel the same way.

As for the vendors and sponsor’s I think you all do a great job and we all need you to keep doing what you are doing so we can continue feed our ADICTIONS! Imported, WC or doing the CB we need you all.

Kurt


----------



## frogparty

Yeah, I think thats really important to remember here. No vendors/bigger breeders means NO access to the frogs we want. Hobbies are driven by a profit margin somewhere! You may love to paint miniature figurines, and trade with your friends, but SOMEONE has to make them in the first place, along with the paint for them etc.


----------



## Philsuma

EricM said:


> It used to happen with Emerald tree boas out of Suriname, you want 6 of them then you got to take 100 Hyla ebraccata, 100 Hyla luecophyllata etc, etc.
> 
> This is why so many lesser animals flood the pet stores and subsequently the importance of the animal is compromised. Why spend resources (money, time, medications, proper housing) on an animal that comes in every few months and costs less than $10. It is a manifestation of the "throw away society" that we live in.


Eric, it is STILL very much this way with imports. You "have to take" a BUNCH of other lesser animals to get to the ones you want, otherwise people would cherry pick and only select and purchase what they want. This way, exporters can pad their wallet and force importers to buy more animals.


----------



## skylsdale

frogparty said:


> Yeah, I think thats really important to remember here. No vendors/bigger breeders means NO access to the frogs we want.


I'm not so sure I agree with this. I have nothing against vendors and whatnot...nothing at all...but I don't think the hobby would completely shut down if they suddenly didn't exist. It helps to know how this whole hobby got started to understand that, and that until the advent and increased use of the internet, most of the vendors (and not just the specific ones you know about, but even just the idea of private suppliers of frogs for purchase) didn't exist. 

The hobby began, grew, and existed because of a network of dedicated folks fascinated with these animals. They wrote letters (not e-mails...actual paper letters they would put in the mail and wait days or weeks to receive from one another) to exchange information and find out who was keeping what, and talking to zoos to discover more information and sometimes obtain frogs. Sure, frogs came in sometimes from the HUGE herp or fish importers (and folks would anticipate for months the next list of imports), but a decent number of frogs have been brought in from Europe...not because of importers and vendors, but from individual hobbyists grouping together and combining funds to cover the shipping costs and bracing for the number of dead frogs that would probably arrive in that box from Germany or the Czech Republic.

Again, don't get me wrong: it's great that we have vendors and variety and availability and competition and all that. But they didn't bring the hobby into existence, and I have a feeling that if they all ceased to exist, it would still continue because of the nature of its community and network of hobbyists.


----------



## stemcellular

pl259 said:


> The opposing question is just as valid...
> 
> Is it bad to sell frogs at a loss or basically give them away? Neither this or making money is bad, IMO. This hobby is not defined by the possible market it creates. It's defined by the community of people. If the majority happen to be more traders than purchasers, so be it.
> 
> YMMV,


Well said, Eric. I'll chime in just a bit with an example ...

As many of you know I've been working with different Mantella species for the past two years. This past year I successfully reared approx. 80 Mantella viridis froglets from one group of 8 adult WC individuals that I adopted from someone who couldn't care for them (they were imported in pretty bad shape). 

While recouping costs is always nice my goal with breeding Mantella species has been two-fold - 1) to offer a cheap and available alternative to WC frogs, 2) to produce enough offspring (and get them to reliable parties) to sustain the species in captivity. 

Once ready for distribution I contacted those folks that had previously expressed interest and sold a few at a price equal to or lower than normal WC prices, discounts for groups of five or more. Once that market was exhausted I was able to wholesale a number of offspring to two very reliable sponsors (IMO). This provided some credit and cash to help keep my efforts going. 

Following these sales I decided to give a few groups away locally to folks that I felt would do a good job of managing them in case something happened to my collection. 

Since then I've wholesaled a few more, sold some at discounted prices, etc. I've since decided to prevent the group from breeding for some time both to give them a break and to prevent saturating the market.

The same can be said for my work with other Mantella species.

Hopefully this isn't too far off topic. I just wanted to highlight how I've approached the selling/trading aspect of the hobby with one particular example. 

(Sorry if this is a bit scattered, I was hit by a bus last night so I'm still a bit loopy). Oh yeah, I'm good (and clearly alive), just banged and battered.


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## sports_doc

EricM said:


> I'll tell you why auratus come in the same shipments and it applys to most shipments of exotic animals from all over.
> 
> When pumilio were first being exported the original terms were 20 pumilio with every 100 auratus. This was a way for the exporters to make a lot of money on "extras" being the auratus. It exploits what people want and all the facets of it, desire, greed, etc.
> 
> It used to happen with Emerald tree boas out of Suriname, you want 6 of them then you got to take 100 Hyla ebraccata, 100 Hyla luecophyllata etc, etc.
> 
> This is why so many lesser animals flood the pet stores and subsequently the importance of the animal is compromised. Why spend resources (money, time, medications, proper housing) on an animal that comes in every few months and costs less than $10. It is a manifestation of the "throw away society" that we live in.
> 
> It' only when those cheap animals stop coming in and no one has dedicated the proper resources to keep them around that demand they increase in value, just look at the stelnezi toads for a glaring example.
> 
> Some thoughts
> Eric


So Eric has just single handily [maybe he typed with 2 hands] derailed the entire argument for 'price gauging' or the appearance of such gauging in the market....

can we stop now?

You pay what you think the animal is worth to you....you dont if it is too highly priced for you at the time....you do your research on the vendor and your happy with your decisions in the end, either way. .period. 

I know very few people who are in the 'black' selling frogs....I sure as heck aint.


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## Philsuma

Ray,

That's a excellent post. I hope everyone on here gets Mantellas from you and Rich Terrell before even considering the WC import route. Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus and sometimes he gives away frogs.


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## David Brahms

skylsdale said:


> I'm not so sure I agree with this. I have nothing against vendors and whatnot...nothing at all...but I don't think the hobby would completely shut down if they suddenly didn't exist. It helps to know how this whole hobby got started to understand that, and that until the advent and increased use of the internet, most of the vendors (and not just the specific ones you know about, but even just the idea of private suppliers of frogs for purchase) didn't exist.
> 
> The hobby began, grew, and existed because of a network of dedicated folks fascinated with these animals. They wrote letters (not e-mails...actual paper letters they would put in the mail and wait days or weeks to receive from one another) to exchange information and find out who was keeping what, and talking to zoos to discover more information and sometimes obtain frogs. Sure, frogs came in sometimes from the HUGE herp or fish importers (and folks would anticipate for months the next list of imports), but a decent number of frogs have been brought in from Europe...not because of importers and vendors, but from individual hobbyists grouping together and combining funds to cover the shipping costs and bracing for the number of dead frogs that would probably arrive in that box from Germany or the Czech Republic.
> 
> Again, don't get me wrong: it's great that we have vendors and variety and availability and competition and all that. But they didn't bring the hobby into existence, and I have a feeling that if they all ceased to exist, it would still continue because of the nature of its community and network of hobbyists.


I remember those days (it was the same scenario for most of the herp hobby). I am sure you are correct in that the hobby would still exist without vendors and the internet.....but it would be populated by far fewer people...innovations and new info would spread at a snails pace...etc. I personally would prefer not to go back to those days.
I believe that having dedicated vendors in this niche of the herp community really help to promote, expand, and improve the lives of the animals we all love. They make it easier for the new guy/gal to get started and to some extent help the veterans as well! IMO niche vendors = a better hobby. 

This thread is an interesting read...If someone is able to make a profit while spreading good information, healthy/honestly represented animals, and quality supplies then I applaud them and their efforts. They deserve to earn some green!


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## chadbandman

*Peeing in the pool*

If your only avenue to sell animals is to sell frog here or on KS $5 cheaper then anyone else then you peeing in the pool. I make $ selling animals. I sell my animals to people that make $ selling them. I make $ teaching school. I am a capitalist. There is nothing wrong with making money in America.


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## Roadrunner

Sorry, I`m not here everyday. I didn`t know there was a time limit on replies. There was only one business that brought in Escudo, I take it you were talking about another importer who brought in Escudos?
And again i say, how can you figure what overpricing is if you do not know how long it`ll take to sell them, what costs are invloved, how many will die, etc. etc.



MonarchzMan said:


> This thread is 5 pages long and you go back to page one to reply to me? Get over it. If you have issue with me, PM me.
> 
> And you didn't ever cover why auratus can come in the same import as pumilio and be sold at less than $100, but the pumilio are $200+. I realize that bringing in animals is "high risk." There is no question about that. The question remains the differential pricing and overpricing. There is no business in question. Stop assuming that there is.
> 
> And the government can okay it, but it doesn't mean that it's right. Under the current system, governments totally ignore the fact that there are different populations of frogs. And that causes problems for the populations because right now, under the current system, it is okay to completely wipe out a population because the species as a whole is fine. It's for that reason, I think that I was only able to find 2 Robalos after two tries when several years earlier my adviser could find a dozen or more with one try. You should stop making the argument that because it's being done, that it's okay.


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## chuckpowell

I think your wrong about the spread of information. 90% of the "new" information you see in these pages has been know for 15-20 years, people rediscover it and think its new. Communication was largely by phone, not letters and personal relationship developed that still last today, 20, 25 years later. The Newsletters of the time, ISSD and ADG in the US helped spread this information fairly quickly. In addition, Frog Day brought together many of the collectors in the US together in one place resulting in shared information. There was nothing wrong with those days and information and ideas spread quickly, but it was a much smaller and, I believe, more dedicated community. 

Best,

Chuck



David Brahms said:


> I remember those days (it was the same scenario for most of the herp hobby). I am sure you are correct in that the hobby would still exist without vendors and the internet.....but it would be populated by far fewer people...innovations and new info would spread at a snails pace...etc. I personally would prefer not to go back to those days.
> I believe that having dedicated vendors in this niche of the herp community really help to promote, expand, and improve the lives of the animals we all love. They make it easier for the new guy/gal to get started and to some extent help the veterans as well! IMO niche vendors = a better hobby.
> 
> This thread is an interesting read...If someone is able to make a profit while spreading good information, healthy/honestly represented animals, and quality supplies then I applaud them and their efforts. They deserve to earn some green!


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## Philsuma

Charles,

I have all the respect in the world for you and everyone who has gone before us in the hobby but please explain to me how the older hobbyists were "more dedicated"......


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## skylsdale

I can't answer for Chuck, but I believe a page or two ago someone mentioned that this hobby has grown quite a bit...and I think it was meant that this was a good thing. But I think an argument could be made that growing, especially at a relatively fast pace, is not necessarily beneficial for the hobby or the security of the frogs within it.

Personally, I would say that those people I know who have stayed with the hobby during the time in which I've been involved are those who were involved long before I jumped in. With the advent of the internet in this hobby and the rapid spread of information, the increase in availability of frogs to people...I think it creates more a culture "gotta have it and have it now." Very little research is done, and frogs are obtained relatively easily (including breeding pairs, etc.) and the sense of community is predominantly a virtual one.

However, what existed before was a relatively small and focused group of people who made the phone calls, who dug through papers and sifted for information and performed a LOT of trial and error. They worked hard and dedicated lots of time and energy, and in a sense, I think those frogs become that much more valuable and, in general, creates a stronger potential of staying power regarding a person in the hobby.

The amount of turnover I've witnessed in the hobby over the last few years is seems to be quite large. I think it's just an aspect of things becoming more available, the value of those things perhaps being less in the eyes of people, which makes it easier to get rid of them and leave the hobby, etc. Each time there is a "collection sale" there is a risk of frogs from various morphs and captive populations falling through the cracks.

I think those people who "fought" to keep those frogs alive and maintained in the hobby are going to have a different perception of value on those frogs than someone riding the success of that effort.


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## Catfur

chuckpowell said:


> I think your wrong about the spread of information. 90% of the "new" information you see in these pages has been know for 15-20 years, people rediscover it and think its new. Communication was largely by phone, not letters and personal relationship developed that still last today, 20, 25 years later. The Newsletters of the time, ISSD and ADG in the US helped spread this information fairly quickly. In addition, Frog Day brought together many of the collectors in the US together in one place resulting in shared information. There was nothing wrong with those days and information and ideas spread quickly, but it was a much smaller and, I believe, more dedicated community.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck





skylsdale said:


> I can't answer for Chuck, but I believe a page or two ago someone mentioned that this hobby has grown quite a bit...and I think it was meant that this was a good thing. But I think an argument could be made that growing, especially at a relatively fast pace, is not necessarily beneficial for the hobby or the security of the frogs within it.
> 
> Personally, I would say that those people I know who have stayed with the hobby during the time in which I've been involved are those who were involved long before I jumped in. With the advent of the internet in this hobby and the rapid spread of information, the increase in availability of frogs to people...I think it creates more a culture "gotta have it and have it now." Very little research is done, and frogs are obtained relatively easily (including breeding pairs, etc.) and the sense of community is predominantly a virtual one.
> 
> However, what existed before was a relatively small and focused group of people who made the phone calls, who dug through papers and sifted for information and performed a LOT of trial and error. They worked hard and dedicated lots of time and energy, and in a sense, I think those frogs become that much more valuable and, in general, creates a stronger potential of staying power regarding a person in the hobby.
> 
> The amount of turnover I've witnessed in the hobby over the last few years is seems to be quite large. I think it's just an aspect of things becoming more available, the value of those things perhaps being less in the eyes of people, which makes it easier to get rid of them and leave the hobby, etc. Each time there is a "collection sale" there is a risk of frogs from various morphs and captive populations falling through the cracks.
> 
> I think those people who "fought" to keep those frogs alive and maintained in the hobby are going to have a different perception of value on those frogs than someone riding the success of that effort.


If things were so much better back then, and the hobbyists so much more dedicated to the hobby, where's the evidence? Where are all the lines of frogs that have been around in the hobby 20+ years? Where are all the old lines of thumbnails that came in back when they were all just morphs of quinquevitattus, that many are just now getting for the first time from Understory? I know there are a few lines of auratus and tinctorius that have been around forever, but even most morphs of those that I know of are from importations around 2000 (or later). Even a lot of stuff that has been around forever, only made it into the hobby via importation from Europe in the last decade or so.

Maybe things aren't better now, but I see no concrete evidence that everyone was so much more dedicated "back then."


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## skylsdale

I wasn't saying either was "better" or "worse"...each has its own challenges and pros/cons. But the idea that just because something is getting more popular means that it's going to be better for that thing isn't necessarily true. I haven't said anything concrete, but just mentioned possible characteristics of both "big" and "small" hobbies.

As far as some of those old lines, they're still out there. But many people keeping them aren't disseminating them through online forums and bulletin boards. It's been said before: just because it doesn't happen on DB doesnt' mean it's not happening. That's nothing against DB whatsoever...but there is a pretty big contingent of hobbyists who have been and are staying solid in the hobby and have never even logged into this website.


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## Ed

Catfur said:


> , but even most morphs of those that I know of are from importations around 2000 (or later). Even a lot of stuff that has been around forever, only made it into the hobby via importation from Europe in the last decade or so.


How about Tor line? Or Sens line, Phil Tan line or Kelley line frogs??? Those are only a couple of examples... of frog lines that have been around for at least 15 years and much often longer... 
When I spoke to Ian Hiler at the very last IAD, he had lost some of his frog lines due to Hurricane Katrina and was able to get offspring of those frogs back from people whom got frogs from him..

Those frogs are still out there and they are often missed because of the imports swamping the market and hiding that the frogs are there... 



Ed


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## Catfur

Ed said:


> How about Tor line? Or Sens line, Phil Tan line or Kelley line frogs??? Those are only a couple of examples... of frog lines that have been around for at least 15 years and much often longer...
> When I spoke to Ian Hiler at the very last IAD, he had lost some of his frog lines due to Hurricane Katrina and was able to get offspring of those frogs back from people whom got frogs from him..
> 
> Those frogs are still out there and they are often missed because of the imports swamping the market and hiding that the frogs are there...
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


As far as I know, "Tor line, Sens line, Tan line (ha!), Kelley line" etc... frogs are mostly from importations from Europe, and are exactly what I meant by "Importations from Europe in the last decade or so" even if it has been somewhat more than a decade since their import (hence the "or so"). 

What I'm asking is where are the all of the frogs that came in directly from places like Peru waay back when? Can anybody positively identify more than a tiny handful of lines still around from all the frogs that old timers have indicated were available back in the 80's or so?

For that matter what's happened to people like Alex Sens, John Uhern and Steve Tarleton? They've disappeared or fallen out of the hobby, haven't they? Just like people do today.


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## poison beauties

everyone here has a very valid point on this subject but the veiws differ by what we all want out of this hobby or buisness. I personaly began collecting poison dart frogs not for profits back in 1998 or 99 i cant quite remember because of my troubled youth. I was told by the courts, cops, parents, and even the people hurt by my idiot behavior that i needed a hobby. Well i found one at a show up north on vacation and i was hooked. The few arautus and others i found were golden to me and i went broke 10 fold taking care of them. Ten years ago fruitflys were barely assesable to me and crickets were the main staple. Supplies were make them yourself or pay a fortune for them here in atlanta. I would call up every person in florida that knew anything about these little frogs from Siegal to everglades to you name it and I went even more in debt when i would hear about another technique of care. 
And that is nothing at all compared to the guys who started it all or the ones trying to better the hobby and keep it alive. This isnt like putting a python in a heated tub and feeding it once a week

and ending up with 30 grand in albino retics. We could all profit from that. From what i have gathered there was no chance of profit at the beginning for the trial and error breeding not to mention general care. If anyone deserves a profit in my eyes its the guys who started it and passed to us the wisdom of keeping and breeding these animals. 
Yes I have made a decient profit at times mostly around 2002-2005 by setting up at a show that a friend was vending at but now im happy if it pays for feeders and supplies. And there is nothing better than seeing my 7 year old daughter open a new delivery of a frog or two and adding it to a tank. This hobby kept me from ending up in jail and is the perfect thing for my kids and me to spend our free time with. And it couldnt have happened without all the hard work and profitless margins of the beginning.
Who can honestly say they earned a profit on their own. I know i cant. All who do profit owe it to the beginning for the wisdom.


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## Chris Miller

Catfur said:


> As far as I know, "Tor line, Sens line, Tan line (ha!), Kelley line" etc... frogs are mostly from importations from Europe, and are exactly what I meant by "Importations from Europe in the last decade or so" even if it has been somewhat more than a decade since their import (hence the "or so").
> 
> What I'm asking is where are the all of the frogs that came in directly from places like Peru waay back when? Can anybody positively identify more than a tiny handful of lines still around from all the frogs that old timers have indicated were available back in the 80's or so?
> 
> For that matter what's happened to people like Alex Sens, John Uhern and Steve Tarleton? They've disappeared or fallen out of the hobby, haven't they? Just like people do today.


I'm still working with Larry Marshall's WC reticulata group (F1's and F2's now) as well as F1 fantastica from my WC parents. Also, the striped reticulata in the US that aren't from UE are from WC imports and I'm pretty sure that Todd's red vents or amazonica are from WC frogs that came in with striped retics (or vice versa). Peruvian gold vents are all from WC parents that Chuck Powell had. A good portion of the ventrimaculata from French Guyana were also WC imports.

Right, there are not that many old lines out there still, and many original froggers have gone on to other things. People now wouldn't succeed without knowing what would cause failure. 

Like the old theorem goes: Experience is directly proportional to the number of frogs lost (or saved). The new school froggers should be venerated no more than the old school froggers gods beatified. Everyone had/has a place and role in the hobby.


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## frogparty

Hobbyists these days surely have the benefit of decades of experience and trial and error. While there are many "pet" owners, I think there are still a lot of newer deicated hobbyists trying to preserv line info, share experiences and information, and produce the best frogs they can.
Is there a larger percentage of the hobby truly dedicated now vs then? probably not, but theres many many many more of us now.


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## Julio

frogparty said:


> Hobbyists these days surely have the benefit of decades of experience and trial and error. While there are many "pet" owners, I think there are still a lot of newer deicated hobbyists trying to preserv line info, share experiences and information, and produce the best frogs they can.
> Is there a larger percentage of the hobby truly dedicated now vs then? probably not, but theres many many many more of us now.


you are not kidding, i remember the few people that were when i started were just Aaron, Todd Kelly, TOr Limbo and Ron Galiardo who i can turn to for advice, there were not many vendors and now with the ease of the internet and forums things are a lot easier to do and communicate.


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## chuckpowell

Maybe more dedicated is the wrong word and I don't think I said thing were oh so much better in the past. You also have a misconception about what was available as wc. What lines of wc Ranitomeya that I know came in then are still around. Different "lines" (I hate that term) came in from Europe generally as less than a dozen animals, and I believe most of those are still around. People got in and out of the hobby then as today. Everything was just that much more difficult them - getting the animals, getting their food, tanks, every part of the hobby has changed in the last 20 years and everything is easier. You had to be more dedicated just to get and keep the animals. I'm not complaining about that - I don't think I'm complaining at all. I'm making the observation that its much easier to get everything today in our hobby and that leads to the mind-set, by a greater percentage of the people now than then, that the animals aren't as important, or "worth" as much today as in the past. Throw away animals. 

Best,

Chuck




Catfur said:


> If things were so much better back then, and the hobbyists so much more dedicated to the hobby, where's the evidence? Where are all the lines of frogs that have been around in the hobby 20+ years? Where are all the old lines of thumbnails that came in back when they were all just morphs of quinquevitattus, that many are just now getting for the first time from Understory? I know there are a few lines of auratus and tinctorius that have been around forever, but even most morphs of those that I know of are from importations around 2000 (or later). Even a lot of stuff that has been around forever, only made it into the hobby via importation from Europe in the last decade or so.
> 
> Maybe things aren't better now, but I see no concrete evidence that everyone was so much more dedicated "back then."


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## kingnicky101

I believe that it is fine to make money off your frogs. A lot of people here put a good amount of money into the hobby and want to re-coop their money. I make no profit from this hobby whatsoever. I spent over $800 in the hobby and made some of that money back just to spend it on something new. Other herps make you a lot more money than pdf's. Even if you have some of the rarer pdf's like histos you will not make much due to breeding difficulty. Other herps like boxies will make you your money back in no time. However, most of the other breeders for other herps are not as reliable as most of the people here. Just my two cents.


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## frogmasterbonk

I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Whats wrong with doing something you love to do and making money off it? If you got a problem with it then you are just a hater.


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## Woodsman

I'm a hater (of people that treat their frogs like crap and don't care about the hobby and don't care if half of the wild-collected frogs they sell die after the sale and only want the cash in hand). Those are the kind of people I hate.

Richard.


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## Roadrunner

If I can`t lead everyone by the hand that I`ve sold frogs to, am I one who only cares about cash in hand? Those types wouldn`t be out there if everyone was an educated consumer. Why is the blame on the people selling the frogs instead of the people buying the frogs? I think the blame CAN go both ways. 
Personally, I don`t like people buying frogs who only care about the price and can`t tell the difference between a superior and inferior animal. Those people vote w/ their dollar. If everyone only cares about the price then only the "cheapest" sellers are left in the "hobby".
We WILL end up going back to getting our frogs from people who don`t know and don`t take the best care of their animals. It`s people buying from these sellers that "make" them that way. I`ve seen it numerous times, people getting all their info from me and buying somewhere else. Eventually that info will be gone.

And I still have red galacts, azureus, terribilis, bicolor and leucs from over 12+ years ago. Unfortunately I`m a business and it`s harder to keep frogs as tastes change in the "market". 

Actually the bicolor pair I have was produced by a 15y.o. pair 13 years ago. Almost 30 years in the hobby w/ just 2 generations and still breeding sporadically. 



Woodsman said:


> I'm a hater (of people that treat their frogs like crap and don't care about the hobby and don't care if half of the wild-collected frogs they sell die after the sale and only want the cash in hand). Those are the kind of people I hate.
> 
> Richard.


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## jeeperrs

I am surprised this thread has lasted this long. It seems as if we are trying to attribute our negative feelings on one group of people in the hobby. Yes, there are bad businesses and yes there are bad consumers. Unfortunately the blame is ambiguous and won't be solved in this forum. I think it is an individual responsibility that we must take to be both good businesses and consumers. I myself decided to re-enter the hobby after many years (when I left the Army in 2003). When I came back into the hobby I really liked xxxxxx (saw him on utube). I have gone out of my way to support his business because he was willing to offer advice and reply to emails. I actually intended to buy everything from him. However, I could not do all my shopping there as some things were out of stock. I think highly of his business practices and still go to his site first. Ok, back on topic, I both business and consumers need to learn to respect each other, or the paradigm will fail. Now, as to making money. People pay me for my education, research, and labor. We should also pay those in this business for their education, research, and labor. Now, if you decide you want a frog that is $1,000 it is your job to decide if you want that frog or if you don't want that frog. The price is what you want to pay and what the business feels a consumer will or should pay. If the consumer doesn't want to pay, don't blame the business for being greedy. The same goes for house buying, you may want bigger but you have to purchase what you feel is fair and what you can afford. Hmm, I don't think much more needs to be said 

Oh, that is super cool you have had 2 generations for almost 30 years!!


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