# Azureus eats from hand



## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

I have a female Azureus that eats from my hand. I put some of the worms from blackjungle on my hand and she climbs right on and eats them, occasionally she will get a fruit fly if I can get it to stay for long enough. Anyone elses frogs do this?


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## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

Thats pretty neat. I will have to try it.


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## Jesse (Sep 19, 2005)

*Yup..*

Yup,

My auratus and vents eat right of my hands  

Jesse


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## Stratusfaction (Mar 7, 2006)

I'm jealous!


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## Guest (May 10, 2006)

I wouldnt want my frogs sucking up my skin secretions for that long, no matter how much or well I washed my hands before that. Unless its like for a minute once a week, then I would do it.


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## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

ISn't it unhealthy for th frog to be receiving our oily skin into its skin? I thought I read it could potentially kill them.....I'm just a newbie though, so I don't know much


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

wow, you guys worry way way too much. They are just frogs and arent going to die if you touch them. Im pretty sure they would be extinct if they were that fragile.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

It is not recommended to handle your frogs regularly, for a variety of reasons. But, I handle my terriblis occasionally and they don't seem to mind. In fact, maybe I should worry more about them. There is a ant colony in their tank.


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## Guest (May 10, 2006)

My female Azureus is a HOG and sits in the cup when she an her male are done eating. I literally pick it up and poke her out or tip it upside down. Needless to say I touch her when I do this. 

She is NOT scared of my hands at all!


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> wow, you guys worry way way too much. They are just frogs and arent going to die if you touch them. Im pretty sure they would be extinct if they were that fragile.


Welcome to the hobby. That tends to be the case, those who are paranoid and those who aren't. I'm in the latter camp.


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## Guest (May 11, 2006)

Like I said, the occasional touch is fine, but an everyday thing, :? .
But I suppose you can do it more often if the frog isnt afraid, and shows 0 strees during the interaction, something I have yet to experience. Maybe they just don't like me.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

woulden't a frogs moist skin repel oil on our hands since water and oil don't mix?

then thiers also misting.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Well I was just going to leave this one alone ..... but I just can't  
There are tons of reasons why not to handel your frogs ...... a few were already mentioned . Right of the top of my head though would be the introduction of harmful germs :wink: 
Alot of us have huge collections , tons of $$$ and time involved into the care and sucessful breeding of groups .Why would one jepordize a frog for the mere joy of touchin one just for the kicks ? Not I or anyone else I know that has been keeping and breeding these frogs for years , with the rare exception of having to move them . 
I even know for a fact that one of the biggest froggers I know wears laytex gloves and changes them between EVERY tank he happens to to work on . Most all of you have some of his frogs :shock: You think he dose this just for fun ? Or is he just being too anal and these amimals are not fragile ........... If your of that thinking I hope you don't wake one day to find one of your favorite frogs up and died .....for no apparent reason :lol: or for that matter your whole collection .
A bit off topic now ........... I believe this is one of the reasons why ALOT of the advanced hobbiest don't contribute to this forum is that ........well , IMO most of the newbies are going to do what they want no matter who is telling them not to do such things. :? 
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

I never take them out and hold them I just occasionally put food in my hand and she will eat off of it. I know not to handle them, only onder certain exceptions.


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## Guest (May 12, 2006)

Well that does it, we have officially been scolded by the powers that be. 
:lol: (I'm just kidding).
I for one will take Darren Meyer's advice to heart, and will always implement it. I learned the hard way that amphibians do not like to be touched.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

Darren-
I just want to say that I wish the experienced hobbiest would contribute more. As a newbie in this hobby I have to say I find the advice to be absolutely invaluable. I have averted several massive mistakes simply by heeding the words of wisdom from those who have been there done that and told me ( or someone else) not to.
I know there are those stubborn few who do what they want regardless but many of us are here because we want to learn how to care for our new family members the best way we possibly can.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

once again, i think you take it way too serious. Like most people say they feed there frogs everyday, meanwhile most adults can go for like 2 weeks with out being fed. Also, someone who suffered from hurricane katrina had said they came home to find the frogs alive in the basement floating on a piece of debris or something like that. Well apparently they hadnt been fed for a while and im sure what was in that water is far worse than what is on our hands. You are not going to kill your frogs by holding them, yeah you might stress them out a little, but they are not going to die from the oils and stuff on our hands. I mean in the wild im sure they are hopping around on rotting carcuses and droppings and what not. I think most people on this board are way way too cautious about their frogs.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Darren Meyer said:


> Well I was just going to leave this one alone ..... but I just can't
> There are tons of reasons why not to handel your frogs ...... a few were already mentioned . Right of the top of my head though would be the introduction of harmful germs :wink:
> Alot of us have huge collections , tons of $$$ and time involved into the care and sucessful breeding of groups .Why would one jepordize a frog for the mere joy of touchin one just for the kicks ? Not I or anyone else I know that has been keeping and breeding these frogs for years , with the rare exception of having to move them .
> I even know for a fact that one of the biggest froggers I know wears laytex gloves and changes them between EVERY tank he happens to to work on . Most all of you have some of his frogs :shock: You think he dose this just for fun ? Or is he just being too anal and these amimals are not fragile ........... If your of that thinking I hope you don't wake one day to find one of your favorite frogs up and died .....for no apparent reason :lol: or for that matter your whole collection .
> ...


Nuf said


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Alfy111 said:


> once again, i think you take it way too serious. Like most people say they feed there frogs everyday, meanwhile most adults can go for like 2 weeks with out being fed. Also, someone who suffered from hurricane katrina had said they came home to find the frogs alive in the basement floating on a piece of debris or something like that. Well apparently they hadnt been fed for a while and im sure what was in that water is far worse than what is on our hands. You are not going to kill your frogs by holding them, yeah you might stress them out a little, but they are not going to die from the oils and stuff on our hands. I mean in the wild im sure they are hopping around on rotting carcuses and droppings and what not. I think most people on this board are way way too cautious about their frogs.


I think that, compared to people such as Darren Meyer, you have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

lets try not to get to personal here, we are all frogers after all.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

I'll hit this once again....... I guess what I'm trying to get across is we have "husbandry procedures" that we adhere to . Some are more extreame than others , granted . Call them anal , fussy what ever we are all creatures of habbit , and you get into the habbit of reaching in to your tanks to hand feed your frogs you will continue to do so . If you put on a pair of rubber gloves every time you reach in you do so because you quite possibly learned that it's a good idea ,or else bad things "can " happen . And you start to . 
I myself have over the years learned alot about "husbandry procedures" over the last 6 years , I've had to even revamp my quaranteen , tadpole , water, tank set ups, the list goes on and on . 
I treat ALL of my frogs for parasites now , but from the "old school ' thinking at the time when I started out was I was quite possibly kill off all of my frogs . That diden't happen, and my frogs appear to be fat and healthy because of (I know they breed more :wink: ) healthier offspring .
Frogs yes can and do handel alot of diverse conditions in the wild . I have seen many pictures over the years of PDF's living breeding and singing away in trash heaps . Dose that mean we should set up our tanks in that fashon ? I know of one advanced keeper that throws in empty expresso cups in his tanks , but I believe he washes them out first . Looks crazy crappy also , but I don't have to look at it everyday . Would I ever buy frogs from him ? Yes ,I just did  But he also has husbandry procedures that have served him very well for over 10 years !
I think we should move or split this topic to a real "ADVANCED" section and give out own imput of husbandry procedures .
I'll start right now :shock: 
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

Okay, Darren, I think you are right in taking caution when handling your frogs especially if you have a large collection and dont want to spread disease and what not to the other frogs. All I am saying is that, yeah if you wash your hands, im sure it doesnt make a difference if you touch your frogs. Im not saying yeah go touch all of your other frogs too now with out washing your hands, because that would just be stupid, but my point was that i think we under estimate what our frogs could handle. And Ive heard you have a lot of experience and basically have sacrificed your whole life to taking care of frogs (which i would never do, but my opinion not yours) but I just think that what they are living with is far worse than anything we could introduce with our hands and that some of us are way too cautious.

 offensive comments removed by MJ


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Alfy111 said:


> All I am saying is that, yeah if you wash your hands, im sure it doesnt make a difference if you touch your frogs. Im not saying yeah go touch all of your other frogs too now with out washing your hands, because that would just be stupid, but my point was that i think we under estimate what our frogs could handle.


And what data do you have to support your claim? Or is this purely anectdotal?



Alfy111 said:


> And Ive heard you have a lot of experience and basically have sacrificed your whole life to taking care of frogs (which i would never do, but my opinion not yours)


Thanks for your opinion, it was, um, riveting :roll:


Edited by MJ


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

*For the second time please keep the offensive comments out of this and keep this civil or the thread will be locked*


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

If anyone would like to see advanced people discuss topics like this, check out this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2840 

Many people in this thread have hundreds if not thousands of frogs/tads/froglest under their belts and many of those are from very difficult species. 

This also demonstrates how to have a sucessful debate that doesn't resort to name calling and personal attacks. There is alot more to learn from the advanced keepers than what relates to their frogs.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

Are you talking about my claim that we under estimate what our frogs can handle? Because that can be answered by lets see.. any of the hurricane victims whose frogs survived, taking a look in some of these frogs polluted environments, looking at what they eat.. and it goes on. Yeah i know my opinion is "riveting", and that I do have an actual life and dont have to tend to frogs every second of my life. I have 4 leucs that I feed twice a week, when they lay eggs which they have been doing lately, i leave them in there until they hatch, raise the tadpoles into frogs, and sell them off. Its simple and takes max. 1 hour from my week. I dont spend every waking moment of my life thinking about my frogs, because they are just frogs, which some people just cant grab the concept of.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Alfy111 you have a PM


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Alfy111 said:


> Are you talking about my claim that we under estimate what our frogs can handle? Because that can be answered by lets see.. any of the hurricane victims whose frogs survived, taking a look in some of these frogs polluted environments, looking at what they eat.. and it goes on. Yeah i know my opinion is "riveting", and that I do have an actual life and dont have to tend to frogs every second of my life. I have 4 leucs that I feed twice a week, when they lay eggs which they have been doing lately, i leave them in there until they hatch, raise the tadpoles into frogs, and sell them off. Its simple and takes max. 1 hour from my week. I dont spend every waking moment of my life thinking about my frogs, because they are just frogs, which some people just cant grab the concept of.


I was referring more to the claim that if you wash your hands and then handle your frogs, it doesn't make a difference. Amphibian skin is very specialized and complex - and interaction with our own skin is very detrimental. In addition to the oily secretions, the texture of our skin - especially at the fingers and hand, is very coarse, and has a sandpaper-like effect on the frogs skin. 

Yes, frogs are quite resilient. But the "polluted environments" you mention are responsible for deformities, decreased life spans, as well as deaths. As a frog owner, you are responsible for providing the best care possible. The reason that some of those frogs survived through the period following the hurricane very well could have been due to the great care they received in captivity prior to the event.

Lastly, what difference to you does it make how much time people spend taking care of their frogs? Do your Leucs provide you with happiness? Do you enjoy caring for them? If you are content with only taking 1 hour out of your work for your frogs, great. Personally, I have a very busy schedule, and can't offer as much time to my frogs as I would like - but I enjoy the little time that I have misting, feeding, and caring for them. That is half of the joy in caring for these animals. Frankly, I think you are missing out on one of the key aspects of the hobby.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

Thanks for not attacking me on my last post and I understand what you mean. Im not saying it matters on how much time you put into your frogs, Im just saying (in my opinion) that people who have their frogs pouring into every room in their house and litterally putting them into debt, I think they are pushing it too far and missing out on the key aspect of the hobby. Yeah i understand like having a few different species, but people who have like hundreds of frogs, what fun is it caring and feeding for all of them everyday where it gets to the point that you cant go on vacation because of them or cant afford certain things anymore because you are blowing all of your money on your frogs. I love and enjoy watching my leucs interact with eachother and think its really interesting, but then you have those people who cant even watch and learn about their frogs because they have to maintain all of them and are stressed out on money issues or making sure all of them are fed and healthy. That to me would seem like pushing it way too far and overdoing the whole thing to the point where you cant even enjoy the frogs you have.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Whatever happened to the discussion about the azureus eating out of someone's hand :?: 

Darren, I'm sorry to hear that you've 'frittered' your life away on frogs :wink: Guess that's why you actually know what you are talking about  Look forward to meeting you at NWFF.


Bill


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Now I never touch my frogs. ........ But after catching them in the wild I definetaly dont think you need to handle your frogs like they are going to break by putting a finger on them. All I can say is catch a fantasticus or a vent in the wild and see how much of a beating it can take. You would be really really suprised. These little guys can take a lickign and keep on ticking. I did have to handle some of my frogs when I got home and moved them from there temperary tanks back to there displays and I didnt play games with them chaseing them around for ever like I used to. I snatched them up right up.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

all i was trying to say is what greaser just said. THanks greaser.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

As Bill mentioned - we have taken this thread way off track. But...

Alfy - What Greaser said was in regards to frogs in their native environment. I would argue that when we contain frogs in small (in relation to natural environment) vivs- they are not able to respond as well to stress as frogs do in the wild. After Greaser grabbed a frog and released it, it was able to dart away, to an area entirely sucluded and hidden. The same cannot be said for frogs in enclosures - they literally hit a glass wall. There are so many variables that what can be said for a frog in the wild, does not necessarily apply to a CB animal in an enclosure.

That is my opinion on the matter, and I will now let it rest.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

i think this whole thread is completely off topic, argumentative, and should be locked since it doesnt have much valuable information in it anyway. Just a bunch of arguments and opinions.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Alfy111 said:


> i think this whole thread is completely off topic, argumentative, and should be locked since it doesnt have much valuable information in it anyway. Just a bunch of arguments and opinions.


I don't understand threads like this. A user starts a discussion within a thread - albeit somewhat off topic, but still relevant; opinions are shared, and then the user who started taking it off track, claims that it should be locked because it is off topic and argumentative.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Alfy111 said:


> i think this whole thread is completely off topic, argumentative, and should be locked since it doesnt have much valuable information in it anyway. Just a bunch of arguments and opinions.


If you don't value what is being written in this thread, don't bother reading it or posting responses. People have different experiences and perspectives, some of them more informed than others. 

Bill

Edit: Oz ya beat me to it :wink:


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

yess i know i took it off track but the only reason i want it locked is because i am getting stupid pm's telling me what i can and cant say. so i kind of thought it should be locked, not like i care what anyone thinks about me anyway but except for the beginning its kind of a wastE


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

You can block people, it's under Profil->Buddy List->Ignore List. Also the terms of the site clearly state that a user can't harrass another incase any problem is that bad. 

To the diverted topic: 

Any person who has done research knows that frogs have sensitive skin, and that what is on our hands can irritate them. That's an established fact... but under what conditions? Those conditions are going to dictate wether of not handling PDFs as sparingly as some of us do is actually a problem. Until those conditions are known, there isn't any way to quantify the possible harm we do to our frogs if any harm is done at all. It all falls to speculation. 



> After Greaser grabbed a frog and released it, it was able to dart away, to an area entirely sucluded and hidden. The same cannot be said for frogs in enclosures - they literally hit a glass wall.


How many times have you searched and searched for a frog in its tank and not been able to find it? I've had that problem so many times with my Auratus it's not even funny. Just because their life is lived inside a glass box doesn't mean there aren't hiding spots for them and that they can't excape any stress we or anything else induces. I took Greazer's post to say that PDFs can physically take being handled quite well without any external indications of harm being done (torn skin, broken bones, et al).


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

defaced said:


> > After Greaser grabbed a frog and released it, it was able to dart away, to an area entirely sucluded and hidden. The same cannot be said for frogs in enclosures - they literally hit a glass wall.
> 
> 
> How many times have you searched and searched for a frog in its tank and not been able to find it? I've had that problem so many times with my Auratus it's not even funny. Just because their life is lived inside a glass box doesn't mean there aren't hiding spots for them and that they can't excape any stress we or anything else induces. I took Greazer's post to say that PDFs can physically take being handled quite well without any external indications of harm being done (torn skin, broken bones, et al).


Sure, many keepers keep tanks so that they have hundreds of possible hiding spots. But, consider their natural habitats. They have MILLIONS of natural hiding spots, and ones which they can compeletly escape, rather just hide in a glass box, sensing the threat approaching. Just a thought.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

There are also a million chances for me to win the lottery but I'm only interested in the winning numbers. If a frog chooses a hiding place and it serves the purposre the frog needs it to, then what difference does it make if there are one hundred or one million other hiding places that the frog _could_ choose from? Especially if one takes the standpoint that a frog reacts out of instinct not conscious thought.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

defaced said:


> Until those conditions are known, there isn't any way to quantify the possible harm we do to our frogs if any harm is done at all. It all falls to speculation.


Very true - and partially my point. By avoiding handling (save emergency situations of course) - there is no chance of harm. But I have seen several pictures on the forum of people holding their frogs for a picture shot. Things like that, as well as hand feeding are avoidable practices. If you want to "hand-feed" - you can get a pair of feeding tongs or forceps. If you want an up-close picture that you can't get when they are in the tank - use a frog-catcher and take a pic through the glass.



> How many times have you searched and searched for a frog in its tank and not been able to find it? I've had that problem so many times with my Auratus it's not even funny. Just because their life is lived inside a glass box doesn't mean there aren't hiding spots for them and that they can't excape any stress we or anything else induces.


Just because you can't see the frog, doesn't mean it can't see you - and therefore is still experiencing stress. Stress is very important in animals. The stress response leads to the release of systemic hormones - such as glucocorticoids - that are immediately beneficial for the frog, but have very detrimental side effects (immunosuppression being one of the major ones). If your frog is continually experiencing stress, then it is more prone to oppportunistic infections, another problem exacerbated by living in enclosures.

I understand that this is all speculation, but the main point is we don't know just exactly how much/little damage is done when frogs are handled, hand-fed, etc. So why take the risk?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I like what *GREASER* said. I've seen some notable veterans in the hobby that roughly grab frogs. However, I still can't get myself to do it that way.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> But I have seen several pictures on the forum of people holding their frogs for a picture shot. Things like that, as well as hand feeding are avoidable practices.


I totally agree, and I'm not saying someone should do those things. What I am doing is critically analyzing arguements presented thus far...:



> Just because you can't see the frog, doesn't mean it can't see you - and therefore is still experiencing stress. ... If your frog is *continually *experiencing stress, then it is more prone to oppportunistic infections, another problem exacerbated by living in enclosures.


As you quoted, it all comes down to the conditions of the situation: continually experencing stress is far different than intermitant stress and thus elicits different reactions, of which not all cause permant harm. 

Like other organisms, wouldn't a frog eventually become conditioned to not become stressed by handling if it were associated with positive reinforcement, say feeding for instance?

Assuming frogs do react out of instinct (condition), then why would they pick a hiding spot that still causes them stress?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Just a quick side not about the conditioning...frogs tend to get more bold as they acclimate to their tanks and many times they come out to beg for food.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

defaced said:


> Assuming frogs do react out of instinct (condition), then why would they pick a hiding spot that still causes them stress?


Because the spaces that they can select from in the vivarium are limited, and an ideal hiding spot may not be accessible.



> What I am doing is critically analyzing arguements presented thus far...:


And that is great. That is why some threads like this are so useful. Everyone has a different way of seeing things, and when you view an argument from different facets - you get a more complete picture.



dmartin72 said:


> I've seen some notable veterans in the hobby that roughly grab frogs. However, I still can't get myself to do it that way.


Dave - I have seen the same thing. I won't do it, and I don't recommend it for anyone who doesn't know what they are doing (like myself).


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

dmartin72 said:


> Just a quick side not about the conditioning...frogs tend to get more bold as they acclimate to their tanks and many times they come out to beg for food.


I have seen this with some of my shyest frogs - including my Vittatus. And part of their conditioning has been no handling or bothering, and that has let "feel" secure in their environment. If I were to handle them, pester them with my hand in the tank all the time, would they become conditioned in the same manner?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I guess it depends on how you condition them. I have retics in living room next to my laptop close to entrance door. There is a lot of movement by their tanks all the time. They seem to be very bold and don't mind my sticking my hand in the tank to check film canisters. Just so you know I usually don't like to handle my frogs. In fact, I prefer to use a frog catcher otherwise known as a clear plastic tube for thumb sized frogs. Although, it is touch to use it for a giant sized cobalt or something like that. :lol:


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

I think if later on in the frogs life, like lets say when they are juveniles, the more the frogs see your hand in the tank and the more times they realize it is harmless, I think you could possibly make your frogs a little bolder. Because if they do have their select few hiding spots picked out as greaser said, they have a sense of security already and there is no need to find new hiding spots and if you do stick your hand it the tank or disturb the tank from outside they may be less inclined to go jump off into the plants. I know I do stick my hand in the tank for feedings and if something has fallen or plants need to be cut, and the more and more i do this the bolder my frogs become. They are almost never hiding anymore and when I do stick my hand in the tank they think it is feeding time so they all jump to the spot where i normally dump the food. The only way I can think of that this would be a problem is if I were going to release these frogs into the wild and then they would be more vulnerable to predators. But thats the thing, we arent going to( well most of us).


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

I don't like to handle my frogs, mainly because they are an investment. I love watching them do their thing without my interference. That's why I build my tanks with all of the "cool" plants, and bought a misting system, and put lights on a timer. 

I wanted to see if I could replicate their homes in the rainforest. If I wanted an animal to hold and pet, I would have gotten a french bulldog. Now, I am not completely against touching your frogs, (my male azureus got stuck trying to crawl out of one of the coco hut holes, so I pulled it out and pushed him back through into my hand) But I don't make a practice of handling my frogs because i don't want to do anything that makes them uncomfortable. 

Some people are willing to take that chance, that is all it comes down to. Hopefully everything turns out alright.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

My mint terribilis are annoying...I practically have to nudge them out of the way to work on their enclosure. :wink:


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

My female azureus knows when it is feeding time, she runs up to the front of the viv and sits there waiting for me to dump the food in whereas the male stays in the back and waits a little while after the food has been dumped in. I didn't mean to start an argument either in this post baout handling the frogs, I was just stating that the female was bold enough to eat out of my hand and was just wondering if anyon e elses frogs do the same. I won't do this anymore because it is frowned upon and not supposed to be good for the frogs.


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

haha no i dont think you started the argument at all, i definitely did. I just thought it was stupid that when someone makes an interesting statement like their frog ate out of their hand all of a sudden a bunch of people attack you for letting your frog sit on your hand. i just thought it was a little ridiculous. hope no one was offendedd. but back on topic i think it is actually possible to train your frogs in response to some kind of movement. like whenever i move my hand over their cage they all jump to the center expecting food. its kind of neatt.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Alfy111 said:


> I think if later on in the frogs life, like lets say when they are juveniles, the more the frogs see your hand in the tank and the more times they realize it is harmless, I think you could possibly make your frogs a little bolder. Because if they do have their select few hiding spots picked out as greaser said, they have a sense of security already and there is no need to find new hiding spots and if you do stick your hand it the tank or disturb the tank from outside they may be less inclined to go jump off into the plants. I know I do stick my hand in the tank for feedings and if something has fallen or plants need to be cut, and the more and more i do this the bolder my frogs become. They are almost never hiding anymore and when I do stick my hand in the tank they think it is feeding time so they all jump to the spot where i normally dump the food. The only way I can think of that this would be a problem is if I were going to release these frogs into the wild and then they would be more vulnerable to predators. But thats the thing, we arent going to( well most of us).


True, but when you disturb the tank, there is an ABSOLUTE possibility that you may disturb one of their select hiding spots. Remember how intricate these systems work!
And, one other thing to mention Alfy, your experience consists of Leucs. One species. I believe most, if not everyonce esle, who has responded to this thread has had multiple-species interations. So, they're basing their arguments on several specific pieces of evidence gathered from personal experiences, rather than just one piece of specific evidence.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I believe that yes, conditioning *is* possible, and can be encouraged to a degree. Like, teaching them that right after misting comes feeding. Or, teaching them that misting is a good time to breed. But, remember, most of us get these frogs for their NATURAL interactions and beauties, not to do tricks. But, hey, they have personalities too, which makes them all the more fun!


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

well im not saying to disturb the tank and mess things up because that would definitely stress them out. Yeah I understand what you mean when you say it depends on the species as well. Im sure an auratus would have a harder time with this than lets say leucs. Oh and i know most people enjoy their frogs by their natural beauty, but as you said i think it makes them a lot more interesting and fun when you let them develop a personality. It makes them more of a pet than just an beautiful object.


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