# Paying for a Viv?



## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

Has anyone ever paid to have a really nice viv made for them?

I see so many and would love to own a nice viv but I stick with the basics because honestly I SUCK at construction. I am not a collector or breeder, I stick with my original species so multiple viv's or a rack doesn't matter to me. I see a lot of amazing viv's here and want one for my frogs.

I would love to be able to buy a lot of the viv's other members have posted. Is there a market for that?


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Most of the market has been in selling them to gecko people, however I do forsee a growing market for good dart vivs made by experienced people. We shall see...


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

If you like a particular person's work, you can ask them (or someone in your area) to build one for you with your specs


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i think you are better off just experimenting with waht you like, the vivariums that are sold already put together will cost you a pretty peny.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Kiari43 said:


> Has anyone ever paid to have a really nice viv made for them?
> 
> I see so many and would love to own a nice viv but I stick with the basics because honestly I SUCK at construction. I am not a collector or breeder, I stick with my original species so multiple viv's or a rack doesn't matter to me. I see a lot of amazing viv's here and want one for my frogs.
> 
> I would love to be able to buy a lot of the viv's other members have posted. Is there a market for that?


I've got one I'm selling cheap if you'll pick it up


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

I think Zach was thinking about selling them, the hard part is transporting them though. If you look on Black Jungle the closest thing you get to a custom viv is a viv kit, which does not include the tank. Anything that heavy or made of glass is pretty much impossible to ship, so thats limits the "tank business" to local. And for the amount of time and effort going into a viv I can see why people don't bother if there is such a small market for their products. 

Kiari, where do you live?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Where you would do well with a nicely made viv is at a large Reptile show.

I can tell you that if you have a well made medium, not large sized viv...something like a 10 vert......you would absolutely sell at least a half dozen or more at Hamburg (PA). No one there has ready made vivs for sale and cool plants are non existant as well.

Shipping a viv will never work with the weight and that fact that you can't be "wowed" even if the pic is decent.

Cash and carry.....cash and carry......


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Where you would do well with a nicely made viv is at a large Reptile show.
> 
> I can tell you that if you have a well made medium, not large sized viv...something like a 10 vert......you would absolutely sell at least a half dozen or more at Hamburg (PA). No one there has ready made vivs for sale and cool plants are non existant as well.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I sold some basic chameleon vivs at a show about 10 years ago and they flew off the shelf.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Well there's always the one I'm selling with imitators in classifieds....Actually I'm building a 20 gallon right now that will be for sale in a month or so. It will have everything, false bottom, drain holes, lid, sculpted foam background, a good selection of plants and leaf litter. If I can sell that then I plan on doing a few for shows in the future.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I build vivs for Josh (blatant plug - joshsfrogs.com - ALL your dartfrog supplies in one place!), but the idea of shipping them makes me shudder. They are for sale for pickup at his place, or at any of the MI shows.
I also build vivs for myself, but I don't pay very well


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> I also build vivs for myself, but I don't pay very well


Haha, me neither ;-)


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

zBrinks said:


> I build vivs for Josh (blatant plug - joshsfrogs.com - ALL your dartfrog supplies in one place!), but the idea of shipping them makes me shudder. They are for sale for pickup at his place, or at any of the MI shows.
> I also build vivs for myself, but I don't pay very well


It's too bad you don't live in Denton anymore. You could teach me some things about making vivs.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

I have to disagree that they definately 
cannot be shipped. I had one made, although at definately a pretty penny, it was built and sent pre-planted but with the plants in contract,
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/30381-18-x-18-x-18-exo-kristy.html . It has a foam background, vines, mist king installed(not hooked up during shipping), in fact everything was put in a separate box like the misting system, pump, screen for the false bottom, you name it. The dripwall where the water falls through the wood piece did bump off during shipping, had chris going when i worded an email lol(he thought the worse....as if it broke when only we had to re-glue the wood bk on...piece of cake) but i have to say i was impressed with S&H. I do not however believe other than possibly a zoo-med rather than an exo that this could have been done. pretty bold move indeed and a risk( chris broke the first as it was by accident ).
i must say i have recieved many exo's in the mail, none however with a background on. It was double packaged with the background made. a prop was also placed to hold up the wood piece. kristy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

They don't package the exo terras well from the factory. I've had a few come in broken and I'm sure I'll have more. I get mine straight from the hagen distributor since we get them through work though, so we don't get it packaged with the 3rd party padded packaging.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

cant say it is not a risk even empty....just have never had a problem. bummer you did however. I can say the custom was packaged for rough handling. the outside box was very large. kristy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't mind when they come in broken as long as the cracks aren't too bad. I usually get to keep them for free and get my original purchased on top of itl I've got 2 coming in this week and I'm almost hoping for a crack


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> I don't mind when they come in broken as long as the cracks aren't too bad. I usually get to keep them for free and get my original purchased on top of itl I've got 2 coming in this week and I'm almost hoping for a crack


lol tim. yeah mine never came straight from the factory. they were shipped with their bumpers, but probably lucky to not have had any cracks They are rough handling when shipping them, no doubts about it. shoot, it is hard to recieve ff without them getting mangled by the same shipping company. kristy


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Kristy, I guess I should have been a little more clear...

Anything CAN be shipped, however the exo's and all larger tanks for that matter, tend to get broken unless you are outrageous with extra packaging.Then theres the high cost for the weight of the filled tank.

If someone wants to try to make some side money and sell some designed vivs, they would stand a FAR better chance at a decent profit margin by selling at large shows for cash and carry as opposed to the high risk (damage) and lower profits due to having all the extra packaging and shipping costs (weight).


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Kristy, I guess I should have been a little more clear...
> 
> Anything CAN be shipped, however the exo's and all larger tanks for that matter, tend to get broken unless you are outrageous with extra packaging.Then theres the high cost for the weight of the filled tank.
> 
> If someone wants to try to make some side money and sell some designed vivs, they would stand a FAR better chance at a decent profit margin by selling at large shows for cash and carry as opposed to the high risk (damage) and lower profits due to having all the extra packaging and shipping costs (weight).


definately correct i would definately agree, a BIG risk. I do know i paid shipping....chris would have benefited more if he hadnt had accidentally broke the first i was patient however. Its not impossible, and vendors i will assume that the price would be higher for that risk( i would definately insure it...assuming chris did as well, cant remember). It would have been less stressful for both of us had i been able to just pick it up. I guess me and chris both took a risk. we talked about this viv in advance, and he made the decision whether it could be done and worth it. we both did and questioned it, i'm sure. I do not believe he had ever shipped one, and he sounded winded when he called about it being possibly broken( it was just the wood piece) I cant justify the penny other than it helped me to actually observe during pictures and after it had arrived how it was made. Helped me envision the next vivs i would make and how to install a water feature. I'm sure i could have built a lot of vivs for the cost. I can see however, not being viv costruction design inclined. I think that is where the market stands. I do however like it, and it was designed somewhat on an agreement of how i wanted it to be, with chris' definate touch of course. Is it possible, of course, expensive...probably. Worth it, depends. I guess it might depend on your reasons for purchasing( maybe the customer doesnt have as much skill to build or time?), or just wants a nice viv built w/experience? I dont regret it however in saying this. kristy


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## psychemjr (Jan 6, 2008)

I would have to say that a well built viv with just the hardscape could be shipped via UPS or Fed Ex if it were crated properly. I use to work next to a store that did that kind of stuff, I have seen them crate up car doors, rocking chairs, a 55gal fish tank, and furniture.
They use this stuff like great stuff, hell it could even be great stuff for all I know. The idea of shipping a viv is not that bad. Now granted I don't mean throw it in a box with some packing peanuts. Or even to re use the ones the exos come in. Those boxes arn't really designed for single shipping. 
Just my opinion.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Kristy, I don't think the main reason a person would get a viv shipped would be to get the hardscape. Thats the easy part, I think the OP was referring to a viv that is fully planted, grown in a little, running ect. I personally would never pay for a viv that was not already planted. The part you would be paying for is what you can not already do or make yourself, and I think most people can make the hardscape no problem. 

Also, say a person wanted to ship a fully set up viv, these things are huge and shipping them could be disasterous. It only takes one crack to wreck the whole tank, and when you are spending such a large sum of money on a tank I would think the customer would want a guarentee of it arriving safely. 

Then you also have to look at it from the perspective of the seller, to refund/guarentee the tank to be in one piece could be disasterous from a financial standpoint. Not to mention the time involved in making one of these tanks. 

I have broken tanks simply by moving them across the room, I cannot imagine what a beating they would go through if they were moved across the country.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Yeah, the trick would definitely be to stay local... 

We should build some stuff for the feb. NARBC show Jubjub... lol. Stuff goes well to the non-dart people.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I build tanks for both private clients and for Reptile shows. Really nice planted larger tanks are harder to move at a show. Simple ten's are not.

Personally, I would not bother building and shipping a tank, unless the money was very good. Too much can go wrong with a fully planted tank.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Hagen won't send via any of the express carriers because, as my sales rep said, "there is zero chance of it arriving unbroken." I've successfully shipped small empty ones via Fed Ex and UPS, but with the addition of a background, I think I'd double box it and ship it on it's back so the center of gravity was lowest. This would mean plants and substrate would have to be added when it arrived.

(Shameless plug warningWe do custom vivs of every size, and offer free delivery to the reptile shows in Taylor and Kalamazoo. As to expense, some of our smaller vivs would be difficult to recreate for the price we have. For commercial or very large private jobs, we offer free delivery and on-site setup. We also have a cabinet maker who can create custom stands and canopies to match your home.


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## Kiari43 (Mar 6, 2006)

I believe I have found someone nice enough to do the hard parts for me. I understand it will cost a pretty penny, but honestly it would cost more if I tried to do it myself and messed up. Me messing it up at every step is inevitable. I can hardly pound a nail and when I enter Lowes I honestly believe the signs are written in Spanish/French/German or some other language I do not understand.

I am looking for a 55gal so it isn't something I would find at a local show.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Yah...

A fully planted viv would likely not take the shipping. I think they intentionally turn the "this side up" upside down! The other problem is the substrate adds so much weight shipping is not worth it. 

Local pickup is ideal but I think if you set it up with the final product in mind the last bit is easily done once it arrives. Not only that but it gives the end user an opportunity to add their own touches to the final product.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I have been thinking of ways to ship smaller tanks but I think the cost is the biggest problem. If the tank was grown in and had mostly attached epiphytes then it might be ok. Planning on trying to use a few seperate packages to ship a whole tank, ie: tank, hardscape, and some mounted plants in one box, and soil and loose plants in another. But I would much rather stay local.........

I will design/build any size setup in the DC/VA/MD area and will gladly deliver to the local shows. Hoping to get enough ready for the next MARS and other large show, problem is finding people right now who want a custom setup designed.


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

haha paying for a viv doesnt always mean buying a fully planted tank! i have shelled out plenty enough money building cages for all kinds of animals that i have built my self! so yes! i will pay for a viv.....lol

(i think mine is close to 200.00 and counting as of now)


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Josh,

Not sure how you are marketing but I have quite a few ideas on how to drum up sales. My problem is time. Shoot me a PM and we can discuss. Site looks great by the way!


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't think there would be any good way to go about shipping a fully planted viv, last year I sold 2 fully planted tanks a 10vert and a 18x18x24 Exo, but I met the buyers mom who was going to drive them up to her over thanksgiving... so I avoided shipping issues all together. So I basically think right now, Local is the way to go...


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## csdemarinis (Sep 17, 2008)

This is a long shot considereing we're talking tanks and not ceramic works... but i've heard quite a few ceramic and multimedia artists (with fragile pieces) make a custom foam "mold" for around their pieces using great stuff, this allows for the piece to specifically rest on the areas that are safest and most stable during shipping. so with a tank you could make a big foam box all the way around... essentially you'll need:

- a cardboard box which is at least 8 inches wider and taller than your tank - 2/3 garbage bags
- two 4" support blocks (to support tank while great stuff is curing) 
- and a couple cans of great stuff... 

Instructions: 

line the bottom of the box with the 1 st bag... wrap the second bag around your tank (make sure the bag's opening is toward the tank opening... spray great stuff in bottom half of your box, being careful to only put enough in that when your tank is placed inside & the foam expands it does not rise higher than midway (you can add more to the sides once the tank is in the box, let this firm up slightly, then place your 4" support beams/blocks directly in the great stuff so the tank can rest comfortably on them with an equal amount of great stuff on each side (remember only half of the tank should be covered!), then place your tank (bottom side down - you want to be able to pull it back out after the foam has expanded- if the foam expands inside the tank it will make it a bit tougher to get it out), then just wait for your foam to expand, pull off the plastic, and presto! You have half of your custom packaging! Then line the box again (to prevent the second half of foam from adhearing to the first),flip the tank over (so the opening is facing down & no foam can get inside), spray great stuff for the second half of your "mold" (try to allow room for the foam to expand so the lid of your box has room to close), then trim any of the excess foam so the box closes perfectly! yay custom packaging! selling them in person sounds like it is definitely safer, but i figured if anyone was looking for another way to pack one, even if it's just for your own transport, it could be worth a try...


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Easy solution...teleportation! no cracks, gets there in no time, don't even have to pick it up at the post-office...


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Just have to figure out the quantum physics and space time continuum parts, and be careful to not end up looking like this guy:









(picture from MONSTERS FROM THE VAULT)


More seriously, with the time and effort that goes into viv construction, I'd want to make sure that the viv was insured and very well packed - most likely crated and foamed in place professionally.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

lol zach. that is hilaroius. too funny. here is the viv chris managed to ship. just the hardscape and water feature built in. I put the substrate and plants in to give it my touch. I have since learned a few things and finished 3 20 gallon talls and 1 ten vert today. I didnt realize how much i would enjoy it. I suppose that chris doesnt do it completely for monetary gain but partly because he enjoys doing it as well. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/36484-custom-viv-finished.html
kristy


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

zBrinks said:


> Just have to figure out the quantum physics and space time continuum parts, and be careful to not end up looking like this guy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, nothing too difficult Zac*h* 



kristy55303 said:


> lol zach. that is hilaroius. too funny. here is the viv chris managed to ship. just the hardscape and water feature built in. I put the substrate and plants in to give it my touch. I have since learned a few things and finished 3 20 gallon talls and 1 ten vert today. I didnt realize how much i would enjoy it. I suppose that chris doesnt do it completely for monetary gain but partly because he enjoys doing it as well. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/36484-custom-viv-finished.html
> kristy


Kristy, nice viv. But I don't think the main reason people would get them shipped would be due to hardscape. The plants make all the difference imo and I have seen tanks with an awesome hardscape that have turned out just mediocre due to bad plant selection.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

It's interesting that this came up, because I'm about to start a business that does just this. I've had a few people ask me to build a tank like my old 60 gallon, and I do believe there is a market for finished product vivs. I can't get started until I move and have a space to set up as a workshop though, so for now the plan is on hold 

I've already got a good design for acrylic vivs, which I plan to sell empty, or with materials ready to set up, or fully set up (to sell at reptile shows). It may turn out that there's no market for that at all, but I think there is.

Edit: My 60 gallon is the 3rd one down from the top: http://www.mistking.com/Gallery-sp-8.html My new design is more seamless, but I don't know for sure that it will work until I'm able to build a few.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I have picked-up 6 orders in the last few months. Anything from 20-60 gallon fully custom tanks. The ones I am working on now are front opening Euro style tanks. I have not even really marketed much. But it is just a side thing for me. It would take lots of orders or hight market demand to make a living of it.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Well yeah it'd be tough to make a living doing it, but for someone like me (and probably you too), the most fun part is designing/building the viv, so it would be more of a hobby than anything.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree. I actually got a request for the future to do something similar to your tank on Mist King. It is a beautiful tank. Even though I think you took it down.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i have some custom plexi glass (might be lexan) tanks that are about 26 gallons and the walls and floor are about 3/4in. thick! those things are tough! you would be able to ship them planted with no worries if you did something like foaming them in. the problem is weight. i would guess each one is twice as much as a 29 gallon glass tank and thats when its empty.

there is something else you can use as a molding, it isnt really foam its more like ballistics gel but its softer. it would absorb the bulk of any blows to the box.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

there truely is no reason to purchase a viv when half the fun is making them yor self.. it may take you a few trys but its so much more rewarding when you do it. its very simple. its a basic set up i for one its all in the plants you choose. i mean im new to the pdf craze and i hav vivs and im constantly adding new things to my vivs and switching them around and they just seem to look better and better. just keep collecting ideas and design something you will truely be proud of.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree it is fun to build our own tanks, and for most DB members we would prefer to do that. But I would not say there is not a reason to purchase a tank. Some people simply do not have the time to spend researching every detail to build a beautiful tank. It's like any hobby though, it may be more fun to do the whole process, but sometimes there is a lot to be said for a turn-key package. It's the same reason why buy art instead of painting something ourselves too. Ultimatley we are paying for an artistic expression. Just swap out the paints fot plants.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> It's the same reason why buy art instead of painting something ourselves too. Ultimatley we are paying for an artistic expression. Just swap out the paints fot plants.


Well said


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## jpg (Jan 3, 2009)

I build Vivs for people all the time  I just set up one for a guy and charged him 3 citronella's in return 

Im not expert and would purchase some of the ones I see posted on here with out a doubt .


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I have built 11 nicer tanks with two more in progress (another 5-6 simple ones) and I own only 2 of them (that are nice). I agree, although I am happy with what I build, but I would pay for some of the tanks I have seen on DB. JoshH, BenE, AQUAMAC, come to mind. And don't even get me started on what the guys are doing over the pond. I would love to have some of those.


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