# The Real Hardiness of Tincs as Beginner Frogs



## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Bill suggested a new thread, so here it is. I wasn't doing anything else, so I started it. In addition, I think someone who knows Patrick (from Saurian Enterprise, Inc.) better than I do (which would probably be most of you) should alert him of this thread, as he seems to have view contrary to the majority as to their hardiness. This is also in the advanced thread rather than the beginners thread because the "discussion" will be advanced, but the information will be good for beginners. Maybe this discussion will lead to a new hobby mindset... who knows?

But, here are some ideas of thing to possibly think about while posting opinions and discussion:

~How have you noticed tincs to fair as a whole (say, a percentage mortality rate/illness rate)
~How have your/others tincs faired in comparison to the other beginner standards as adults? As juviniles?
~Does there seem, in your opinion, to be some variety of success based on morph?

Feel free to talk about whatever, but those are just some ideas. From personal experience, I can say that pet store tincs seem to die off at a sickening rate, but at the same time those bought from reputable breeders can just wither and die after a while too. I'd love to hear from all you tinc connoisseurs, though!


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Well, as a rank beginner... I have had success with all of my tincs. I have three Patrica (from nabors), three cobalts, and two azureus (same as tincs, probably). I've made many of the mistakes any beginner would (under and over feeding, inelegant tank design and maintenance, etc), and the tincs seem do be doing great. Of course the caveat may be that I got all of them as adults or near adults. I would say that my Patricias and Cobalts are 'easier' than the azureus, but not much.

I did have four azureus at one time, but gave away the smaller (6-9mo) pair to a friend. She tells me that they have both since died, but from inexperience or poor hardiness I do not know. My pair (approximately mature) are doing well.

I have only lost three frogs, and all were auratus. One (green and black) probably due to competition in the tank. The other two were blue auratus, one of which died a month or so after arriving, and the second a month later. They were relatively small and never did seem to establish well. If I had more experience at the time I could have probably saved them. So I'd say in my hands tincs are hardier than auratus, although I love my auratus.

Haven't tried thumbs yet, so can't comment there. Still learning about my galactonotus.


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## ChrisMc (Mar 7, 2004)

I think Ive only lost one tinc and that was when I was first starting out. I think alot of it has to do with the size of the frogs that are offered and inexperience of a good feeding regime. One thing that I would point out is that if the petstore bought frogs cross contaminated the frogs from a good source then they could have transferred parasites. I think even the smallest things are overlooked such as using alcohol to sterilize pruning tools and hands between tanks. Obviously mixing frogs from different sources would do this or not tearing the tank down after a dieoff.

My best advise is to avoid the impulse petstore frog and buy from a reputable breeder/sponsor.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Over the years, I have had more problems with tincs than any other frogs. I don't know what it is but they always seem to hover around eating issues. Whether some were picky (wouldn't eat anything but the SMALLEST fruitfly or cricket) or ones that wouldn't eat food with supplement on it.

One big mistake I made with them back when I started was putting froglets in huge vivaria. Basically, 2 month old frogs in 25 gal heavily planted vivs. I did this with other species (leucs or tricolors) that had no problems. I now keep all tincs in small vivs until they are about sub adult size or a tad smaller than that.

Coincidence is possible, but I must have lost half a dozen tincs to various touchy issues.

I have tincs now as well and I had problems with 2 of them being a bit picky with eating. I've since solved the problems. It might be acclimation but whatever it is, its not something I feel beginners are going to want to deal with.


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

My first dart frogs were azureus, though I actually kept tree frogs and mantellas before I had darts. My husband thought I would kill dart frogs so I bought some WC mantellas to prove I was ready for darts. Sure enough I kept the mantellas for 2 years until I sold them with no problems. I have lost few dart frogs except for a few froglets with SLS.

I think tincs are a great beginner species, along with leucs and auratus. I am thinking there are 2 major problems beginners have that might lead specifically to tinc losses. 

1. Buying young froglets. I have seen some people see tiny froglets barely out of the water. I prefer too people, especially beginners buy older juveiles that are at least 3-4 months out of the water and feeding well on fruitflies.
2. Keeping older tincs in larger groups. I know that some people have done well keeping them in groups but alot of beginners try to keep too many frogs in a smaller tank leading to agression and possibly starvation. When I had 50 plus azureus froglets, they were housed in planted shoebox containers, but I regularly would sort them out by size and pull any froglets that seemed skinny.

Of course the problem smay be due to normal beginner's mistakes, especially improper housing and low humidity. I think keeping the humidity too low is the number one problem I see when people lose frogs. I can explain the need for a glass canopy and water area, but still too many people try to use screen tops or skimp on the set-up.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

bgexotics said:


> 1. Buying young froglets. I have seen some people see tiny froglets barely out of the water. I prefer too people, especially beginners buy older juveiles that are at least 3-4 months out of the water and feeding well on fruitflies.
> 2. Keeping older tincs in larger groups. I know that some people have done well keeping them in groups but alot of beginners try to keep too many frogs in a smaller tank leading to agression and possibly starvation. When I had 50 plus azureus froglets, they were housed in planted shoebox containers, but I regularly would sort them out by size and pull any froglets that seemed skinny.


i agree with these two statements. i feel it is often times overlooked how important the early stages of a frogletts life are. if the frogletts are well fed and taken care of and sold at 3-5 months rather than directly out of the water i find they are hardier and bolder adults. also the tadpole stage is overlooked way to often. feed the tads well and take proper care of them and they will morph out stronger and bigger.

the second is also true. keep them in an environment that keeps them happy they will thrive. 

this being said, i've never lost a tinc. knock on wood. i find them to be the easiest, boldest and hardiest.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

knock on wood,

Kole was the first dart frog I had, and I've made so many mistakes, but he's survived every single time.

For a long time, he's lived at temps at 76-84, with little drop at night. He was pretty shy back then. When he moved to the basement, he went for some time at temps into the low sixties and high sixties, low seventies.

I gave him the improper supplement before I knew anything about the whole "vitamin ratio thing" ...I even did not give him anything more than vitamin D3 and calcium for months at a time.

However, he has developed that swelling on his neck, and we are doing something about it. However, it has been there for a long time, and hasn't changed.

The first time we had to try and quarantine, I nearly lost him because he didn't eat for a week...but when I put him back into his old tank, he began to eat. He hated the paper towels for quarantine, so I"m still figuring out a way if I need to medicate him.


One thing is for sure about Kole. He has always lived ALONE. I think the real problems with tincs is the fact that we tend to buy a group of frogs, and then as they grow up, they get nasty towards one another. I heard too many stories, so I chose to only buy ONE tinc to see what happens. Hopefully we'll figure out what is wrong with his neck, but he is the very bold, very active, and a hearty appetite.....Oh yeah, despite he lives alone, he has always had an owner that loves him very much (plus the other members of the family).


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

What I have to add...
The first pdf's I had die were two (approx) 4-6 month old cobalts...around a month or two after having them...I started "tropicals" with gold mantellas and imitator, which are still doing well today...

I don't have much new to add, but since I brought it up on the other post, I feel obligated to say something...

Over the years, I've seen many posts (here and elsewhere) of people looking for advice for a tinc group frog (which includes azureus) that is sick, dieing, or just not thriving...

To back this up, if you look around (here and elsewhere) you can find recent threads of people with tinc group frogs that died or are wasting away...
How often do you hear of a Leucomelas, auratus, or phyllobates species having problems or just dying out of the blue?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

...Also another thought (or two) :lol: 
Perhaps the problems you hear about most often are due to "impulse buying" due to the beauty of the animals...maybee people buy them before they are ready, just because they see them and "have to have them" (that wasn't my case, and still had them die).

Another thought is most of the other "beginner" frogs sell for quite a bit less than the tinc group frogs...so possibly people are having just as many problems with their less expensive frogs, but don't bother to say anything because they can more easily replace the less expensive frog...(I kind of doubt that, but thought I'd put it out there)

Just my $0.02!


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2006)

Hi all, First post for me in this forum, been reading your posts with great reward for a long time.

I keep Tincs "Citronella" and have had one death so far. I bought two of them when they where about two months old, they where my first dartfrogs. One of them was very fat from the beginning and the other one was more of a standard build. Im pretty sure that i killed the small one out of inexperience, transfering it to a smaller viv to make sure it got enough food, always trying to get fruitflys close to it when feeding, constantly checking if it was eating and stuff like that. 
If i had left it alone and didnt pay so much attention to it im pretty sure it would have been doing good still. 

IMO the biggest problem with beginners and dart frogs is that beginners (at least i was like this) reads forums and see references to all the problems people have and try to solve these problems that doesnt really exist in their setup?

Best regards,
Roger


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

The first PDF’s I got were tincs, They are still one of my favorites, and I currently maintain several morphs. So I may be a little biased when it comes to tincs. I think that they are a great beginner frog, if they are maintained correctly and this starts from the day that they are acquired. I strongly agree with bgexotics, that some people are selling frogs that are way too young. It is one of the big issues that I have seen as this hobby becomes more popular. I have seen people selling froglets that were days out of the water. Frogs that are 3 – 4 weeks out of the water are NOT well established no matter what a person’s ad says. A well established frog is 3 – 5 months out of the water. That first couple months after metamorphosis is a critical time in the frog’s life and the frogs should be in the hands of someone with experience. The other side of this coin is that people usually sell these frogs for less than someone who is selling truly well established frogs, which really appeals to the beginner. It is just pure economics; the person who has a frog for 2-3 weeks puts a lot less effort into raising it that the one who keeps it for 20 weeks. From the buyer’s perspective, they could get possibly twice as many frogs for the same price, which is hard to resist. But in taking the bargain, they are unwillingly accepting a host of potential husbandry issues. 

The next biggest problem that I see people having with tincs is that they often insist on trying to keep them in groups! I’m including azureus in this and it is along the lines of the overcrowding statement made earlier. Everyone wants to breed their frogs. So they buy 4 or 5 to increase the odds of getting a pair, but it also increases the odds of multiple females. The females are going to have aggression between them and this stresses the subordinate and the dominant animal. This can lead to a whole host of issues for both animals. That has been covered in other threads so I will not get into it here, but stress is a vector for animals being overwhelmed by parasites if they exist at all in the frog or enclosure. I've seen significant aggression start when the frogs are 4- 5 months OTW, so it is not always an adult issue. People seem to be unwilling to separate the frogs, which I can understand if these are the only frogs that they have, but it can cost them at least one of the frogs and maybe the whole group. I also see people rationalize and say things like “I have 2:2 tincs in a 30 gallon, it follows the 5 gallon per frog rule, so they should be ok”, or the people ask for advice, and then filter the advice until they get the answer they want. It is human nature to do things like this, but it usually costs frogs their lives. 

So Josh to answer your original question, my tinc froglets are just as hardy as most and more hardy than some froglets as the same age. But I never sell, trade or give away froglets less than 3 months OTW, and never give away any to a beginner that are less than 5 months OTW. 

Adults are just as hardy if kept in pairs, trying to keep a group…. Go with Phyllobates!

I see no differences in the morphs. I currently have 6 and I’m considering a 7th. Some are much more prolific than others, but none seem to be more or less hardy. 

I still think they are a great beginner frog, if they are purchased at the right age (that really goes for all PDFs) and their specific husbandry needs are addressed. 

Ed


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