# very angry



## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

:evil: had six frogletts shipped...was supposed to have 3 alanis and 3 azureus. order was wrong and had 2 cobalts and 4 azureus. worst of all..... 









who in their right mind ships frogletts this small!!! still trying to settle things with the person but i'll let yall know who it is after i do.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Yikes...who the heck sent you that?


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

holy crap. That is horrible. The morron who shipped those little guys should be shot in the face. :evil: Hope everything goes ok for you.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

:evil: like i said i'll let ya know once i'll settle up with the guy. i already haven't been able to get a hold of him. another crazy thing is they were all in the same cup, two survived actually. i was supposed to get 6 frogs and he sent 8. guess trying to be nice. the two that survived are a subadult alanis about 3/4-1'' and a subadult cobalt 1 1/2" (skinny!). i hope these 2 don't die! hopefully he'll be straight forward with me. i appreciate him giving me 2 extra frogs but what does it matter when 6 are dead?! just goes to show the ones that died were too small to be shipped. they couldn't be more than a week out of the water. and who would ship 6 tiny frogs with a sub adult and an almost full grown (8 total) in the same cup? and i agree with ya....a shot right in the face! :evil:


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Top right azureus looks like it's been dead for some time. Are you willing to give the name of person/company that shipped these? What kind of packaging did they use?>


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

I can't believe someone would send them all together like that. It looks like the two on the top right were picked up off the carpet! Sorry for you loss, I hope everything works out.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

I agree with Dane that frog on the top right looks like it was dead before he was even shipped. Only one frog in that pic has decent weight.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Angry*

Looking at the limbs it is obvious (unless they are totally dessicated) that these frogs were starved. They have no weight in their limbs whatsoever, a sure sign of not being fed. It almost looks that they were spindly but my guess would be that they have not been fed for a few weeks.
Mark


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

Those azureus look like they're just a few days out of the water, definitely way too small to be shipped. Every frog in that pick looks like they were in poor health even before they were shipped. Shame on that breeder....


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

Does this royally piss anyone else off?! That is outrageous! Sorry that I'm a little fired up- I pray that this person isn't an active dendroboard member. They clearly wanted to make a quick buck and have no consideration for the frogs at all nor the customer.

So when are we going to find out who this is?


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

thats just not even human to do something like that. You would think even dome of the not exactly intlligent people could figure out how to ship a frog. how hard could it be deli cup wet paper towel plenty of space heat control come on its not that hard.

Well over all i hope you give him a good lecture.

I would like to know who shipped them so i dont make any mistakes.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

At all the shows I've been to that had darts, I've seen froglets for sale that are just as small as the ones in the picture, if not smaller.


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## Guest (May 11, 2005)

I understand them being at shows that small, they are only transported and taken care of at the show, but to ship a frog that small is ridiculous. then you ship 6 of them. Nice. I hope it all works out.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

That's true, and I've had frogs shipped to me that were literally one week out of the water, and they arrived just fine, but both the seller and myself were aware of that, and they were shipped appropriately. This just shows disregard for the animals well being. Give us some details!


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

That is just wrong...


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## TopGunJags01 (Jul 31, 2004)

if you cant contact him any more then that sure means he ran with your money. I dont even think it was a breeder who sold you that.


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## medmaxx (Apr 12, 2005)

i recieved frogs like that from a guy name Justin Pierce on frognet about a year ago . He replaced them with more sick frogs that all died .


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## Guest (May 11, 2005)

That is freaking pathetic.It is sad to know there are people out there selling frogs in that condition.When I send out frogs I can hardly sleep at night worrying about the person on the other end liking them and having them have a good,safe trip.
Mark W.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

i feel bad having bought them from him to be honest. not knowing his reliablity. it's a shame my lesson was learned at the price of these poor frogs lives. i'll tell ya what i think...these frogletts were in a tank at his facility with crickets like you might find at pet stores that carry darts. they have no idea about thier care and what it takes to feed them. i'm so upset that i can't help but blame myself. he had what i was looking for at a great price. i didn't stop to really look at the source. 

anyway...an update- i did contact him via email and he has agreed to replace them. i urged him to not ship if they are going to be this small again. and for gods sake don't put 6 tiny frogs in with 2 sub-adult in one container! i tried to give him advice on how to ship them properly. so we'll see. to be honest i'd rather be out money than have six more dead frogs.

i didn't want to say who it was in case it would get back to him and i'd be out my money. but as soon as it's gets settled i'll let yall know. 

...keep ya posted.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

audioandroid said:


> i feel bad having bought them from him to be honest. not knowing his reliablity. it's a shame my lesson was learned at the price of these poor frogs lives.


Don't beat yourself up over this. Those frogs were dead before you ever placed your order. If they didn't arrive dead at your address, the would have arrived just as dead at someone else's.

Also, just because froglets that small are commonly seen at shows does not make it right. It's the number one complaint I hear from the old time froggers about shows - froglets being offered too small. It is better to sell/ship/show them as tadpoles than as tiny neo-morphs.

Sorry you are having to deal with this. Hopefully the shipper has learned from their mistake and is taking better care of their frogs now.


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## phyllomedusa (May 17, 2004)

I'll second brent on this. Lately most froglets i have seen lately at shows are way to small to sell(even if they are only being hand carried doesnt really matter)as stress plays a huge role in recently morphed froglets. If i sold my golden mantella(or painted) froglets that young none would ever make it to maturity.



Sean


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

EDIT: Post retracted...

...just don't like to see dead frogs on petrie dishes because of people's stupidity !!!


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

> i recieved frogs like that from a guy name Justin Pierce on frognet about a year ago . He replaced them with more sick frogs that all died .


I just received two pairs of frogs from Justin that arrived in great shape. They are fat and healthy looking and so far have been very active.


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

> The morron who shipped those little guys should be shot in the face.





> This dude needs his knee caps busted !


How come the above two comments disturb me as much as the manner the frogs were shipped, the inaccuracies of the order, and how they arrived? 

Cheaper doesn't mean better. Older doesn't mean healthier. Reputation matters. Quality matters. You want people out of the hobby that pull stunts like these? Vote with your money.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I agree with Sarah...they are very disturbing comments. :shock: I'm not sure if people were just being sarcastically stern or really meant it. I hope it is the former. Remember, it's not as if he took something that didn't belong to him like say your car, which would be worthy of a whoopin'. He probably doesn't have much experience and hopefully this will help him get out of the business altogether. He still has a chance to make things at least monetarily right (i.e., refund). Plus, I think it is enough to be outed as a bad business and to lose most, if not all of his business from the publicity without violence! That being said, I think the customer has an obligation to let us, the public, know the name of this business or person.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

froglady said:


> > The morron who shipped those little guys should be shot in the face.
> 
> 
> [quote:27i9xwmf]This dude needs his knee caps busted !


How come the above two comments disturb me as much as the manner the frogs were shipped, the inaccuracies of the order, and how they arrived? 

Cheaper doesn't mean better. Older doesn't mean healthier. Reputation matters. Quality matters. You want people out of the hobby that pull stunts like these? Vote with your money.[/quote:27i9xwmf]

Very well said. As upsetting as this is, we don't know the whole story here. While this incident is extreme, I don't know of any frogger who hasn't killed frogs doing stupid things, myself included. What is important is that we learn from our mistakes and don't repeat them. It's easy to jump to the conclusion that this guy is a sleaze ball trying to rip someone off but it is also possible that the person is just ignorant and needs to learn some serious and fast lessons about husbandry and shipping. If they do turn out to be a sleazeball who doesn't care about the animals, then we will blackball them and hope they leave the hobby. That said, you really have to lack any common sense and have almost zero knowledge of the frogs to pull a stunt like this but lets learn a few more facts before we start swinging the metaphorical baseball bats.


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

We have to be more careful about defaming other people. One bad experience can ruin a person in this business because it is not a very big community. I have seen people ruined because of a few nasty comments made on an internet message board. In some cases it was not even the person's fault. I am glad to see that the original poster has refrained from giving a name until the matter is settled. Hopefully the person responsible will learn from their mistakes, everyone was a newbie at one time. 

I agree that it is terrible to see frog shipped like that, but we also do not know the whole story. Was there a shipping delay? Did the buyer ask for references or ask anyone else before purchasing the frogs? Did they pay less in exchange for getting younger frogs? Before everyone starts making threats and attacking each other, why not see how the problem gets resolved. Making physical threats is really immature and unecessary.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Very Angry*

I was going to comment on those suggestions as well and then I remembered the joke/comment I made about KERD and the fire ant hill. Hopefully these folks were kidding but I for one would support removing any comments concerning violence (joking or not). 
One other thing I would like to mention is the VERY negative tone many of these threads take when some of our members see something they disagree with. People are found guilty and hung usually before any facts are determined to be true or not (KERD is an excellent example). 
The person that shipped the frogs pictured obviously does not know what they are doing and to me the facts here are indisputable. This case should be judged harshly and the supplier known, follow up here is essential, please let us know the condition of the subsiquent shipment.
Mark


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I wouldn't want a subsequent shipment of frogs, but rather a total refund including the shipping fees.


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

I said he should be shot in the face.

 It was a horrific sight to see that pic of those poor little frogs. I was just saying it out of anger. I didnt really mean it. I was just upset. Dont take things said out of anger so seriously. I was just appauled to see those poor little creatures. It angers me because, if you have animals, you need to take the responsibilty to take care of them properly. I just hate stories like this. Sry if I upset anyone with my statement. I am just a concerned animal lover. :wink:

p.s. We are just animals too. And if someone treats an animal poorly they should have a consiquence for their actions. Just like if someone were to starve a person, the person who did it would be in jail or on death row. So again sry for the violent outburst, but that person should pay for what they did to those poor little frogs.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

That's what I thought. We have all been guilty of saying things that we shouldn't. Just think of all the nasty things people say to each other in the comfort of their cars!


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

to answer a couple other questions about the whole story...there was no shipping delay. they were shipped monday morning and arrived tuesday at 11:00am. i saw pics of the frogs before buying and the pic had a pen next to them for size reference i'd say 3/4'' pictured. the ones shipped were much smaller. when we spoke he did guarentee live arrival so he will be replacing them. he has a no money back policy, only exchange. 

i'll keep yall posted on the next shippment. like i said i tried to explain how we can better ship the replacements and not send frogs so small so we'll see. hopefully we can make good...however in my opinion his darts are not cared for properly. the lagest survior is so skinny...i'm closely monitoring its health. it's also showing bad behavior signs such as glass bouncing. 

p.s. what can i do to bring this guy around? i've put him in a deli cup with calcium powdered flies to try and get him to force feed. i think i'll try the same with some larva. however i don't want to keep putting him in a deli cup to feed him and stress him out. also he seems to have no appitite. he'll just bounce around in the deli cup ignoring the flies for the most part. not good


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I think the deli cup might not be the best idea. If you cram a freaked out frog in a tight space with lots of little critters to crawl all over it, you'll just make the situation worse. Better to put it in a shoebox sized container with enough food items that it won't have to go far if it is willing to eat, but it can avoid them if it wants to. I agree with the larvae idea. Either ff or flour beetle larvae are nice because they move much more slowly, won't climb the glass, and aren't likely to crawl all over the frog. As always, give it plenty of cover and hide spots.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Have you tried giving the skinny survivor some soak time in Pedialyte? Not a long term solution but perhaps it would give the poor critter a bit of a boost. You can even put the Pedialyte solution inside the shoebox setup Dane suggested so it could soak as much or as little as it wanted.

Bill


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Angry*

Put the frog in something with tons of cover and springtales if possible and do not disturb it. Chances are it will not survive but you are adding lots of stress by moving it.
Mark


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

can you explain the Pedialyte bath to me? whats the best way to do it? i assume you don't want to drown the frog in it. but can you just fill a deli cup with it then put the frog in. filling the cup maybe 1/2'' full. or do i put a 1/2'' or so dish in the tank with him to go in and out of at his leasure.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

*electrolize supplement exoterra.*

this is the stuff i use. i would use about 2-3 drops with water.
i use a 1/2 cup glad wear size container. the water is usually up to its belly when it is sitting up. take an eyedropper and give it a "bath" with a few squirts. i let it soak for at least an hour.
when i take the frog out i mist off the frog to take off the excess electrolite. i just do this just to not "over dose it" i just don't want to take the chance. also when i feed i would only give it around 10 of what i'm feeding it maybe less and watch it to see if it eats.
this is just the way i do it. i have drown frogs in the stuff by having too much water/electrolyte mix.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Also with the skinny frog, lots of small meals is better than sticking it in with a ton of food crawling all over it. 

Here is how I handle skinny frogs:

Stick it in a tank with soaked sphagnum moss on the bottom and some leaves to hide under and feed it a couple small doses of FFs a day. Have a little dish thing (that the frog can see into like a pringles/yogurt lid) with a peice of orange on it to attrach the flies and keep them off the frog, also keeps them localized and easy to pick off. 

Getting some termites in a shallow dish is my favorite way to fatten up some frogs as well, in a dish (I use the tops from crystal light containers with 6 'tubs' of powder that makes 2 qts each of lemonade) they don't run around and bother the frog, and are nicely concetrated in one area for the frog to pick them up. 

With a tinc, I don't see the point of springtails, not with subadults (frog too big, bug too small).

The pedialyte bath just sounds like it would stress the frog out more to me (I don't use it often, but thats just because I think that in and of its self is so stressful) and I've had a lot of good success with the above set up across the board with frogs (and toads).


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Angry*

Corey it has been my experience that Tincs like smaller prey much more than larger food items. Some of the larger Epips and Phylobates tend to ignore smaller food especially Silverstonei and Terribilis. If the Tinc has not eaten for a while starting with smaller food items will be much easier on the frog.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

what about placing a water dish with Pedialyte in it so it can go in in out periodically without the stress on my intervention. also do i dilute the Pedialyte with water? if so whats a good mix?


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

The technique that pa.walt describes will be your best bet. That way you are sure the frog is benefitting from the pedialyte.


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## Guest (May 12, 2005)

Pretty sad.

Some of those frogs do not even looked healthy to start with. They were probably starving to death prior to be shipped... The seller got to be a newb at this and I bet he did not even had the right size food for them that is why he gave you the wrong frogs.


Well I feel petty for the little guys that die.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

here's some photos of the two survivors...i think they're going to be ok. there doing much better now and already gaining weight. these pics are almost a week after i got them. the first two are of the cobalt i was most concerned about...still not out of the woods but i think they'll pull through


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

glad to here they are doing better


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

No worries, I'm still quite sane and wouldn't bust anyone's knee caps for 5 grams of frogs. No need to get touchy feely over the comments, I'm just venting a bit. Nothing bugs me more then people's stupidity & ignorance.

I hoped I didn't have to use the <sarcasm> tags on the knee caps comment. :roll: I'll be sure to include them next time though for those that didn't see it coming.

PS: Lets leave it at that and not analyze further. I agree, if you take it at face value, sounds violent...then again...I haven't seen a violent frogger...it was purely sarcastic 





dmartin72 said:


> I agree with Sarah...they are very disturbing comments. :shock: I'm not sure if people were just being sarcastically stern or really meant it. I hope it is the former. Remember, it's not as if he took something that didn't belong to him like say your car, which would be worthy of a whoopin'. He probably doesn't have much experience and hopefully this will help him get out of the business altogether. He still has a chance to make things at least monetarily right (i.e., refund). Plus, I think it is enough to be outed as a bad business and to lose most, if not all of his business from the publicity without violence! That being said, I think the customer has an obligation to let us, the public, know the name of this business or person.


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## Guest (May 19, 2005)

*angry*

Try termites they trigger a feeding response quicker than anything else I use.I am really sorry about your frogs also try and find some breeders closer to you so you can pick them up I noticed you live in orlando I know a few good breeders in the tampa area.
chad


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## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Probably because they're taken out of context and regarded much too seriously :lol: 




froglady said:


> > The morron who shipped those little guys should be shot in the face.
> 
> 
> [quote:3f98vhks]This dude needs his knee caps busted !


How come the above two comments disturb me as much as the manner the frogs were shipped, the inaccuracies of the order, and how they arrived? 

Cheaper doesn't mean better. Older doesn't mean healthier. Reputation matters. Quality matters. You want people out of the hobby that pull stunts like these? Vote with your money.[/quote:3f98vhks]


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I'd like to get a little 2 cents in:

Kole, err, now perhaps Jean (hehe) was purchased from Justin Pierce at a local reptile show, just five min from my house.  

His frogs, while just normal sized at 2 months, had very rich coloration, and that is why I went with his cobalts (I was originally going for green siplawini) due to their nice coloration. The leucs had almost orange stripes. My tinctorius has a perfect "y" pattern on her back and is huge now. I know other people like Devin Edmonds that have used his other products like "tadpole tea" with good results.

I have no idea what happened to your frogs :?:


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Marty,

Too often violence is the first solution that comes to mind to resolve a conflict. Sarah was expressing her frustration with that. 

The comments were not taken that far out of context - a lot of people were replying with similar answers. 

Violence of any type isn't an answer. That was her point!

Melis





Marty said:


> Probably because they're taken out of context and regarded much too seriously :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/quote:102zscva]


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

To get this thread back on track, have you received your replacement frogs yet?


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

Ya enough quotes of the violent sayings, I have seen enough of them.

Lets do what mindcrash said and get this back on track.

How r the frogs doing, and have you recieved anything in compensation? Is the guy working to help you? Can you reveal his name yet so we dont get frogs from him?


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

he was going to send the replacements however we talked and i urged him to not send them if they are going to be as small. so he doesn't have have any larger ones so we are going to wait to ship them. hopefully he'll make good and we'll get some healthy live frogs this time. he originally sent 2 extra and since this all has happened he doens't seem like he'll do the same again. he's already lost money so i guess he's not feeling nice anymore. i think he should make good on sending 2 extra again but i suppose thats asking to much. bad thing is i wanted 3 alanis and 3 azureus and looks like i'll end up getting 1 cobalt 2 alanis and 3 azureus. not what i ordered! but at this point i just hope to walk away with 6 healthy frogs....

the 2 other ones i've nursed back to good health. they have done a 360 and are doing great!

but anyway to name the seller it was Carolina Reptile Exchange saw the ad on kingsnake it was only up for a brief amount of time. he's been cordial to deal with and hopefully we've schooled him on some dart frog care and shipping. so we'll see...i'll let everyone know when the new ones arrive. http://www.carolinareptileexchange.com/


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

There have been some bad things said about them on Fauna Classifieds Board of Inquiry (BOI). I get wary of buying from people that advertise on Kingsnake, especially since there are plenty of experienced breeders here on Dendroboard. 

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/ ... hid=102624


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## Guest (May 20, 2005)

hehehe, yeah right  Right off their webpage....

"IN RESPONSE TO YOUR REQUESTS, WE WILL NOW BE SELLING OUR OWN CAPTIVE BRED , DARTS, MANTELLAS AND EXOTIC FROGS. WE WILL BEAT ANYONES PRICE, *THESE ARE NOT THE STANDERED "TINYS"*, THESE ARE WELL STARTED SUB ADULTS. THESE ARE ALL BRED RIGHT HERE IN FT MILL S.C.! IF YOU DON'T SEE WHAT YOU WANT, CALL AND ASK FOR THE FROGMAN! WE WILL GET IT AT A GREAT PRICE THAT WILL AMAZE YOU!"

hmmm, don't people have spell check in the south? :lol:


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

HAHA no south jokes ok? I remember an ad that they had posted about a month ago with like a proven CB basti pair for like $600 or so. Their prices have always been out of the roof.


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## Guest (May 20, 2005)

Well they have bigfoot for sale (frozen ONLY) $65000 i think that says it all. 

Who wants to chip in and buy us a bigfoot :wink:


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Angry*

I remember this guys ad from Kingsnake and yes he had breeding pairs of Retics, Imitators and bastis all for like $500-600. Another case of a commercial animal guy trying to be in darts. These animals were way too skinny which means he either does not know how to feed them or does not have enough food for his "merchandise". I would be very surprised to hear that this guy actually does any breeding himself, probably just turning someone elses animals he is buying wholesale.
The perfect reason people should stick to Saurian, Simply Natural Dart Frogs and Black Jungle and other reputable suppliers advocated on this board. 
Mark


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## Guest (May 22, 2005)

*Angry*

I hope everything works out for you,if they shipped them bad once who knows but may the frog force be with you,later.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

yeah i learned my lesson...i will only now deal with people i know, frogs i can see in person or dendroboard approved.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Careful - you can be called a pariah around here for saying less.

s :? 


audioandroid said:


> yeah i learned my lesson...i will only now deal with people i know, frogs i can see in person or dendroboard approved.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

Scott said:


> Careful - you can be called a pariah around here for saying less.
> 
> s :?
> 
> ...


i don't understand?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I am joking just a bit - for all the crap I take/took for pointing out that folks should provide a bit more info on what they're trying to sell.

(I'm going to be quiet now so as not to wake up the crowd).

s


audioandroid said:


> i don't understand?


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

thing is the guy provided plenty of info. he just simply lied. he said he has much experience with healthy darts. he said they wouldn't be "tiny" froglets. he provided pics with a reference to size. he simply didn't tell the truth. you can ask all the right questions but if the person lies there's not much you can do. 

not to mention i think the alanis he sent is sick.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7378


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That stinks.

I wouldn't be looking for replacement frogs from them. I'd be looking for $.

If you used a charge card - consider talking to them about reversing the charges.

s


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## RivetChick (Feb 11, 2005)

i do hope all this works out for the better for you. that pic of those froglets makes me want to cry (yeah im a weenie about sick/hurt animals).
There IS something you can do if you have unresolved problems with this guy/company. The Better Business Bureau will help you and try to straighten this mess out if it gets out of hand. i would report the incident anyhow, so that it is on their record. that way if future problems arise with other customers, legal action can be taken. 
you know, these may only be froglets to some people, but they are still living, breathing, feeling, beings and that is a very cruel thing that was done to these froglets. 
im not trying to get on the soapbox, but this is a serious isssue and is obviously recognized as such by us all. i dont think it is too much to report companies that do stuff like this. its not fair to the animals and they do not have a "say" in the matter. 

good luck and you have my best wishes :wink:


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