# The Lacey Act



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Is this ever enforced? I read online that someone got stung by the feds a few years ago for receiving a package with a CB python:

Lacy Act - FaunaClassifieds

Every package I see, even ones that petstores receive, pretty much just says LIVE FISH or LIVE HARMLESS REPTILES. I have NEVER seen a box, from any vendor, or any business label their package with the species scientific and common name.

Have there been ammendments, or is it a defunct law (like the sodomy laws that recently became ruled as unconstitutional in 2003)?

What happens if FedEx or UPS discover that you're shipping animals not agreeable with their terms?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Doug,

It is not defunct, I was involved in a bust a couple of years ago with the USPS and USF&W for the shipping of illegally collected Arizona Blackrattlesnakes shipped via the mail. 
With those shippers it depends on whether or not they decide to contact USF&W for enforcement. 

Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

We recently got a letter from F&G stating one of our shipments was in violation for not displaying the package inventory on the outside of the shipping box. The package was inspected and released for delivery without incident, but it was also shipped in state. I placed calls to follow-up and seek clarification (so we can be fully in compliance in the future), but none of those calls have been returned as of yet.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

how do they even enforce this? There's thousands upon thousands of herp, fish, inverts, and bird transactions all the time.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

JL-Exotics said:


> We recently got a letter from F&G stating one of our shipments was in violation for not displaying the package inventory on the outside of the shipping box. The package was inspected and released for delivery without incident, but it was also shipped in state. I placed calls to follow-up and seek clarification (so we can be fully in compliance in the future), but none of those calls have been returned as of yet.


Same thing happened to a friend of mine a few weeks ago, shipped a box from east coast to CA and got a violation/warning for not labeling the box, but they still delivered it to the recipient on time.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would be careful with this as it may be part of a larger scale up.. with a different president coming into office in a couple of months there may be a redirection of efforts. 

Doug, as I noted above, it may depend on who gets the notice and whether or not you are a repeat offender, or have come to thier notice in another way. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

There was a recent bust in the paper where some people got busted smuggling trophy whitetail deer from MN to sell to a game farm in Texas.
The paper explained the Lacey act to pertain more to illegally caught or prohibited animals.
I'm not saying that's what the Lacey act is, and I'm no lawyer, but that's how the paper made it sound.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It was originally aimed at interstate trafficking of illegal game animals however it was amended (quite awhile ago) so it now covers any and all illegal interstate commerce of any animals. This includes shipping animals provided they cross state lines. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

This begs the question-- how are we supposed to ship animals then?

I wouldn't have any problem putting a label on what's in the box, if the shipping companies wouldn't get so uptight about what we ship, as far as what's against their terms-- even though USPS USES FEDEX TO SHIP ANIMALS. 

Same goes for feeder insects. 

UPS says that it can ship all amphibians unless poisonous or venomous. Well, many, many species of frogs in the pet trade, like firebellied toads are defined as "poisonous," but UPS also states that it will accept all amphibians. If I put "poison dart frog" to prevent violating the lacey act, I might get a runaround from the shipping company.

But there is a definition that says that one pays a fine if the animals are worth "over $350."

I'm very confused now Ed. I read that we have to mark the packages with species, quantity, and common name, but it sounds like it only pertains to prohibited animals now?

Mike, did your friend get fined?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Rain_Frog said:


> Mike, did your friend get fined?


No, he didn't get fined.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

is there any reason why he got targeted?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> This begs the question-- how are we supposed to ship animals then?
> 
> I wouldn't have any problem putting a label on what's in the box, if the shipping companies wouldn't get so uptight about what we ship, as far as what's against their terms-- even though USPS USES FEDEX TO SHIP ANIMALS.


And the problem with this is? My main problem with the post office is that your local postmaster can refuse you the right to ship the amphibians for any reason they choose. I have dealt with some that refused any live animal shipments regardless of weather or packaging. 

If you get certified by Fed-Ex then there shouldn't be any problem. All you need to do is contact the appropriate person, ship them a box like you would ship the animals in with the same packaging. They open it, inspect it and if there aren't any problems, certify you. 




Rain_Frog said:


> UPS says that it can ship all amphibians unless poisonous or venomous. Well, many, many species of frogs in the pet trade, like firebellied toads are defined as "poisonous," but UPS also states that it will accept all amphibians. If I put "poison dart frog" to prevent violating the lacey act, I might get a runaround from the shipping company.


What makes you think that you are required to put poison dart frog on it? If you are shipping tincts, then you could legally place on it, yellowhead dyeing dart frog of French Guinea Dwarf Dart Frog. Common names change with the times and seasons and with the hobby the common name is no longer poison dart frog but dart frog. That is why they require the current scientific name. 
You could legally ship the Pac-Man Frog (Ceratophrys ornata) as Pac-Man Frog or Bell's Horned Frog and both are legal and correct provided you keep the C. ornata on there. 

With respect to the poisonous issue, this is more related to venomous and not poisonous which is why they specify they accept all amphibians. 





Rain_Frog said:


> I'm very confused now Ed. I read that we have to mark the packages with species, quantity, and common name, but it sounds like it only pertains to prohibited animals now?



Any animal shipped over state lines in any form of commercial transaction is requred to follow the labeling requirements of number of animals, common name and scientific name. This covers all animals and not just the prohibited ones. Species that are covered by the ESA require additional permits to ship overstate lines. 

There may be additional state laws requiring labeling for in state sales and/or you have to follow the post office regulations if using the post office for instate shipments. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Thanks for the info, Ed. That helps quite a bit. Yes, but I think the general public regards them as "poison dart frogs," even though the hobbyists just call them "dart frogs" now--however, I have seen no provision in the Lacey Act that says specifies what "type" of common name it should be. What about species with no common name? Seems to be increasing these days with the amount of animals that enter the herp hobby.



> And the problem with this is? My main problem with the post office is that your local postmaster can refuse you the right to ship the amphibians for any reason they choose. I have dealt with some that refused any live animal shipments regardless of weather or packaging.


I meant that FedEx prohibits live animals without being certified, but USPS uses them without the need for certification-- it doesn't make much sense why they would do that except prevent a lawsuit or liability. I'm going to have a problem shipping once I start working a day job if I can't ship USPS (which closes at 5 pm) and if I'm denied certification by FedEx.



> If you get certified by Fed-Ex then there shouldn't be any problem. All you need to do is contact the appropriate person, ship them a box like you would ship the animals in with the same packaging. They open it, inspect it and if there aren't any problems, certify you.


I want to do that, but according to their terms, it must be business to business. That's fine if I ship wholesale like I usually do with mantellas, as it says "such as a breeder to a petstore," but I don't know if that's agreeable with "hobbyist to hobbyist" transactions. Also, the biggest problem I've heard is that they still won't gaurantee live delivery-- which is why Delta Dash is looking more inviting right now.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Thanks for the info, Ed. That helps quite a bit. Yes, but I think the general public regards them as "poison dart frogs," even though the hobbyists just call them "dart frogs" now--however, I have seen no provision in the Lacey Act that says specifies what "type" of common name it should be. What about species with no common name? Seems to be increasing these days with the amount of animals that enter the herp hobby..


If there isn't a common name then you can always put down no common name... 





Rain_Frog said:


> I meant that FedEx prohibits live animals without being certified, but USPS uses them without the need for certification-- it doesn't make much sense why they would do that except prevent a lawsuit or liability.


If you meet the post offices requirements then Fed-EX can't complain as you didn't contract with Fed-Ex but with USPS. I am sure USPS has thier own contract agreement with them over the shipping and that it is covered in it. 




Rain_Frog said:


> I want to do that, but according to their terms, it must be business to business. That's fine if I ship wholesale like I usually do with mantellas, as it says "such as a breeder to a petstore," but I don't know if that's agreeable with "hobbyist to hobbyist" transactions. Also, the biggest problem I've heard is that they still won't gaurantee live delivery-- which is why Delta Dash is looking more inviting right now.


If you are worried about live delivery then you are better with the airlines. 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think that Ed covered this in one of his posts, but I wanted to clarify. This law is not targeted towards hobbyist to hobbyist transactions? What about a breeder/supplier to hobbyist transactions?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It covers any transaction involving commerce over state lines so any trades, sales, swaps etc between any two parties. So if you sell/trade to another hobbyist in a different state and mislabel the box then you technically have violated the law. 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

That's good to know. Thanks Ed.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> If you get certified by Fed-Ex then there shouldn't be any problem. All you need to do is contact the appropriate person, ship them a box like you would ship the animals in with the same packaging. They open it, inspect it and if there aren't any problems, certify you.


But, you can only ship to a business (i.e. zoo or pet store). Fedex will not allow you ship any animals to a home address regardless of application, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From the FedEx website 
Freight Terms and Conditions - General Terms and Conditions at FedEx.com

quote "Shipments must be from a business to a business (from a breeder to a pet store, for example). 
The shipper must have its packaging tested and pre-approved by FedEx Packaging Design and Development for the type of animal being shipped. Call 1.800.633.7019 for assistance. It is the responsibility of the shipper to adequately package shipments for all temperature extremes and handling conditions."endquote. 

What is the definition of breeder? Virtually all of the people who are transacting the dartfrogs are breeders. 

Ed


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Ed, I'm talking about the destination. Only a zoo/pet store can RECEIVE a package from FedEx.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

And, from our interaction with FedEX, hold for pickup is not an acceptable workaround.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

How do you ship animals then Josh?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Josh,

have you informed FedEx that the residential address is a breeder? 

Ed


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I've had several shipments of frogs delivered to my office by FedEx. My office is a payroll office in a government building.

In fact, it is always the same delivery guy. He always walks in with the box with a huge smile on his face because he knows he is delivering frogs. He frequently waits around until I can bring up a photo on my computer of what he has been carrying.

The last box (last week), he said.........."these guys must be addicting".

No truer statement spoken,


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Ed,

FedEx has courted us and after explaining our situation, no recourse can be made. They say that they would love to ship our other products, but cannot deliver or hold for pickup animals that aren't going to pet stores and zoos. We would love to get a quote from them that we could bring to our UPS representative...



> How do you ship animals then Josh?


All through UPS which accepts animals provided they are dropped off at the HUB or picked up by the driver. They will deliver them to any address. They guarantee earlier delivery for more addresses than any other carrier.

We are working on the coding to display USPS Express Mail for shipments going to a destination zip code in which USPS guarantees delivery by noon the next day (much like our system displays UPS Ground for insect shipments going to destinations guaranteed by to be delivered in 2 days).


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Amen, Josh. That is my concern about FedEx-- and you proved that it's not as easy as it seems. However, if you breed wholesale like I'm planning, it shouldn't be a big deal. But if I have odds and ends, I have no choice but to use someone else unless I want to lie about the package like most people do.

HOWEVER-- there has to be a loophole because I receive live cricket shipments from Timberline Fisheries. They ship wholesale to Petco and to residential. I remember the FedEx carrier smile at me and ask what kind of lizard that I had, until he saw the RETFs on my shirt 

Josh, has UPS ever raised a stink that you're shipping "poison dart frogs" (I know, Ed commented about the venomous / poisonous issue and that it "shouldn't" be a problem with UPS as long as they're frogs).

At least in my own experience, the post office has been great-- it's just that they close at 5 pm and I'm going to have to use someone else pretty soon.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I can say that if you label it anything other than live plants / live fish and you send it UPS to my area it will not be delivered.

I asked our local UPS delivery guy that delivers to our office. He said the reason is we do not have an airport up here and all packages big and small get thrown in the same truck to come over the mountain.

In transit most of them especially the smaller items end up up side down, tossed around, and / or smashed.

They allow fish and plants because the fish are suspended in water so can handle a bit of a tumble where as a live animal would end up on it's head.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

This is a change in UPS's policies. Years ago - this region would not allow live animal shipments while other ones in the US would. 

My understanding it was a Region by Region call. 



joshsfrogs said:


> Ed,
> 
> FedEx has courted us and after explaining our situation, no recourse can be made. They say that they would love to ship our other products, but cannot deliver or hold for pickup animals that aren't going to pet stores and zoos. We would love to get a quote from them that we could bring to our UPS representative...
> 
> ...


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

My local fedex stores no longer will accept my shipments, which over the past few years have not been a problem. Although if I have them shipped there and held for pickup there is no problem. The box only says perishable usually...............
I now have to drive an extra 20 minutes to the airport to drop them off..........
I am probably going to try UPS
When initially going through the issue with fedex I shipped using USPS with little problems, I have found that some addresses when shipped overnight say on Tues are not available for overnight shipping the next day (weird)

Jason


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

evolvstll said:


> I shipped using USPS with little problems, I have found that some addresses when shipped overnight say on Tues are not available for overnight shipping the next day (weird)
> 
> Jason


We've had the same problem with USPS quoting Express overnight delivery when providing a price quote and then the service is no longer available at the time of shipping. Very frustrating...


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

After some recent shipments I like USPS as long as it is hold for pickup. Only issue I have with them is their hours. I can drop off at fedex until 9pm and still have it their the next day. I may change to USPS though just becuase they don't care its frogs and they are a ton cheaper.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Exactly, Kyle. What do you do when you work an 8-5pm job?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Doug, do you get lunch breaks?


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Kyle,

Actually you can do the same with USPS. If you go to their 24 x7 facility out at the airport they have similar criteria regarding the drop off times for next day delivery. A few years ago I think the time was 9pm as well.

Almost same distance as Fed Ex too.

Melis



kyle1745 said:


> After some recent shipments I like USPS as long as it is hold for pickup. Only issue I have with them is their hours. I can drop off at fedex until 9pm and still have it their the next day. I may change to USPS though just becuase they don't care its frogs and they are a ton cheaper.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> After some recent shipments I like USPS as long as it is hold for pickup. Only issue I have with them is their hours. I can drop off at fedex until 9pm and still have it their the next day. I may change to USPS though just becuase they don't care its frogs and they are a ton cheaper.


Unfortunately the two times I have tried hold for pickup, they did not hold it and it went out on the truck. I had even filled out the special "hold for pickup" paperwork. When I was on the receiving end I went to pick up the supposed "hold for pickup" package and the woman at the post office said she had been working there for 20 years and had never heard of such a thing. I'll stick to fedex with "Perishable Goods" written on the side.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Mike, depending on where I work, I would have to drive home, package frogs, and go right back to work.

The last time I rounded up a group of "only" 25 mantellas -- it took well over an hour-- lunch break is already used up.

I could possibly "round them up" early in the morning or the night before into their containers and put them in the box with a heat or cold pack until I'm ready. But who wants to hold onto 25 or so frogs in your office until you're ready to ship them?

Plus, it's always better to ship frogs near the end of the day because the package never goes out until 5 pm.

Melissa, are you saying that if I drive to the airport, I can drop my package off with USPS after five pm?

Rob, I had this problem twice with the post office. I filled out the paperwork and they delivered it when they weren't supposed to. Recently I shipped some tincs to someone, and they held it like they were supposed to.

It's always a gamble it seems.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

The "hold for pickup" thing isn't something I have ever dealt with as we only just recently got home delivery up here (last 10 years or so). Before that everything was P.O. Box. My work still is P.O. Box and I just canceled mine last year.

I think if someone has a P.O. Box shipping USPS would probably be ideal as there is no choice but to hold for pickup.

EDIT: As always this has been my experience with live food items, plants, and other very sensitive and perishable items. Not specifically frogs. I have however received many insects and plants (and some food) and in my experience the box and the contents have much less damage coming in USPS than with UPS or FedEx. My last plant I got was shipped FedEx and when it arrived looked like someone had put it in an oven. It was damp and shipped in cooler weather so I have no idea how it got so warm but when I opened it you could tell it had been too warm too long. Maybe the driver saw that it was a live plant and thought to put it on the heater in the truck or something but the thought of doing that to a frog who may already have a heat pack in there would just be bad.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

When I wanted something held for pickup at my local USPS post office I just went in ahead of time and told them I was going to have something sent to them under my name. So instead of have the box sent to my address I had it sent to the post office address, so they couldn't have put it on the truck even if they wanted to (it's already at the destination address and they don't have any other address to send it to). It probably helps that the workers of this post office know me pretty well, but I wouldn't do it without checking with them first (since you can run into identification problems, no address to verify you're the person you say you are). Another option mentioned above is getting a P.O. Box, they don't cost that much, and you have a guarantee your package will remain safe at the post office.

Doug, that's what I usually do, pack them up before work, take them with me, then ship at lunch time.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Hold for pickup is easy if you make a slight adjustment. Actually ship to the post office. Don't even include the "real" address. Mark hold for pickup and etc. 

When I first did this they looked at my like I was nuts, but at the time I think it was new. My local post office is great about it, its just the hours.

I need to get an account with them so I can print labels and etc. Many of the "hold for pickup" type questions are much easier to do on your own rather than trusting someone at the counter. I wonder if USPS has labels like fedex does for hold for pickup. They help as well.

Melissa beat me to it, and I had heard of the post office out there being open late. It actually across the street from fedex. Come spring im going to switch over to USPS I think as they are a ton cheaper and more accepting of the contents of the packages.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

As I mentioned earlier, they USE FEDEX to ship live animals anyway-- so why not ship USPS?

But where is the late USPS drop off? Is it always at the airport?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Just a little clarification...USPS does NOT use FedEx for all of their overnight stuff. Only certain parts. Those parts that do utilize FedEx still cannot accept live animals. So, you are suppose to call your areas Express Office and check. For instance, the west side of michigan (going out of Grand Rapids) uses FedEx whereas the east side (going out of Detroit) does not and accepts live animals.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

We just sent some out tonight by USPS. Instead of turning left and not going towards the airport - keep going towards the airport & it is the last left before the terminal....keep going right and you can't miss it.

I think they used to accept stuff later than they do now. 7pm was their cut off...which still isn't bad, when comparing it to the 4:30 of the local counter. 

The box we shipped was under $50 (8lbs) - and would have been close to $150 - $200 with FedEx - didn't even want to know what it would have been. 

Both have pros and cons 




kyle1745 said:


> Melissa beat me to it, and I had heard of the post office out there being open late. It actually across the street from fedex. Come spring im going to switch over to USPS I think as they are a ton cheaper and more accepting of the contents of the packages.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

USPS also has a limited area that overnight can be provided. My office also told me I need to have my package dropped off my noon in my area for it to be a one day transit, if I miss that time can drive 25 minutes to the another office and by 2 pm it can be next day.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Figured I should bump this up.. 

While targeted at the aquaculture industry it has a good explanation of the potential issues with labeling. 
See http://www.nationalaglawcenter.org/assets/articles/springsteen_lacey.pdf


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

(see attached)

Simple as that. It's not a big deal. Just keep the label small enough to not attract any unneeded attention from people @ Fed-Ex, UPS, and USPS to make your life easier. If a government bureaucrat happens to find the box - you'll be in the clear. Giant "LIVE ANIMAL" labels don't help anyone!  Little "perishable/fragile" stickers don't call attention to the box, and get the necessary point across.


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