# Thoughts on frogs in groups



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Past few threads a bit of discussion has come out with dart frogs in groups. 

It would be of interest for anyone working with species not generally kept in groups to talk more about their experience.

I am particularly curious if anyone has tried keeping several individuals of both sexes together.

I am thinking back to working with fish and some anecdotes with birds and the like that people will likely have more success in larger groups, not smaller. If you simply throw two males together-you are going to have one winner and one loser. In larger groups it is going to be less likely for any one frog to take the majority of the aggression. Of course this requires larger tanks and more frogs-something most people here don't have the luxury of playing with! 

Other members have hinted at the mention of total removal of reproductive sites so that frogs are unable to establish territories. I'm sure this happens all the time in thumbnail growouts where sexually mature animals get along since they don't have a chance to breed anyway. I do have a group of 5 imitator who are reaching breeding age. I have so far pulled 2 males and they were competing prior to being removed-I don't think they would have done well together long term even in this situation.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Thought many people claim Azureus should not be kept in groups let alone female heavy groups, i have been doing it for a year now. 
I have several huts, lots of ll, logs, and pathways to the top. I have yet to see any issues. All are in good shape, not fat, and always out.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Aldross said:


> Thought many people claim Azureus should not be kept in groups let alone female heavy groups, i have been doing it for a year now.


Nice, what size and how many males to females?


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

It was a 5 group for awhile. I had got a 3 from a friend and then 2 shortly after. All were bought as froglets and raised together in a 29g. Now that they have all gotten older they needed more space so I gave 2 to my brother. He ended up with a 1.1 and I'm down to a 1.2.

I'd also like to point out that this was not on purpose. It's just the way it worked out. I do not attempt to breed. I cannot comment on that.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Here's what I keep as far as Tincs go,


18" cubes

1.1 Azureus (Little aggression)

1.1 New river (Little aggression)

1.1 New river (Female is aggressive towards male at times)

1.1 BYH (Female is very aggressive towards male at times)

1.2 La Fumee (Females can be aggressive at times)

2.1 Matecho (Little aggression)

1.2 Matecho (Little aggression)

24" x 24" x 18" tanks,

4.1 Regina (Little aggression)

3.1 Alanis (Little aggression)

2.1 Powders (Little aggression)

5.1 Bakhuis (Little aggression)

4.3 Patricia (Little to moderate aggression but watered down with the size of the group)

I will be getting rid of the 18" cubes and moving all the frogs into groups at some point.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

One of my favorite pics. Two females stroking a male La Fumee.


----------



## dushen2002 (Jun 11, 2014)

I have my azureus in a group of 5 as well and its been over a year an no instances of aggression. They do have a large tank though so that might be why. I also keep my auratus highland bronze in a group of 5 and they all seem to be doing fine.


----------



## smoosh (Oct 25, 2014)

It's nice to read that about the Patricia in that size group. Was planning similar numbers in a 75 gallon tank


----------



## SDK (Aug 11, 2014)

The above fish analogy brought a question to mind for both myself and possibly other newer keepers. 

I am aware that it was primarily the African Cichlid hobby that resulted in successfully keeping larger groups together. I myself have been keeping fish for 40 plus years and Africans for the bulk of that time. The reason I always went with big filters and high population densities is because that the way most of the rift lake cichlids lived in nature.

At what sort of densities do dart frogs occur in wild populations? I'm sure there is a variance between species, but is there a range or trend that would serve as a rule of thumb? Is there a good read on this particular subject to be found?

I am very interested in this thread, and hope to see some good examples of what others are doing. Having said that, I personally, would be more open to trying larger groups if it was representative of how they live naturally. I was under the impression that wild dart frogs live at fairly low population densities...


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Supposedly, in some areas, pumilio can be at such high density it's practically hard to not step on them


----------



## SDK (Aug 11, 2014)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Supposedly, in some areas, pumilio can be at such high density it's practically hard to not step on them


Thanks Jason. I think that, when available, this sort of info will be great to include in this thread...


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

One thing to keep in mind though, the difference between wild population density and glass box population density is the ability for the one being bullied to get away


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Aldross said:


> One thing to keep in mind though, the difference between wild population density and glass box population density is the ability for the one being bullied to get away


Very true, in the case of Tincs, I believe the group thing is not natural at all. Any losing competitor would be chased off. That said, having a pair together all year isn't natural either. By having many males or females it waters aggression down, so a single frog can't be bullied into a corner.

My observations so far. 4.3 Patricia in that size tank is ridiculous and they won't be staying like that. I was just trying an "experiment" and proved the above theory correct. At least in my case.

I've done as many as 5 males to a single female, but would never do the opposite. I don't think a single male could handle all the aggression a female could throw at him. It's hard enough in pairs sometimes. An example would be my 1.1 BYH. She's very aggressive towards him at times. My most aggressive Tinc, by far.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks for starting this thread, Joe! I think this is a much needed discussion.

I just watched the Oophaga lehmanni documentary the other day and it raised some very good points in favor of keeping that species in groups. It said that the reason many people do not have success in breeding this species in captivity is that the frogs normally establish a hierarchy with a dominant male and a dominant female who do the majority of the breeding. When kept in pairs, this hierarchy does not exist and as result breeding is much more sporadic. Dominant females choose their own mates as well and even though a male is available, she may not see it as a suitable mate. I gotta say, anyone who is thinking of getting Tesoros lehmanni should definitely watch that movie. It includes great footage of their natural habitat and they talk about breeding habits in more detail than I expected.

I don't keep many of my frogs in groups, but I have done so with R. imitator. I'm sure population density for this species is very high in areas and I see no real problem with having multiple male and/or female groups. I've kept both 3.2 and 2.2 groups of the banded and Tarapoto morphs in 30 gallon cubes with mixed results. Most of the time the frogs were not aggressive with each other, but I have had to separate both males and females due to fighting with the same sex. Females generally seemed to be the most problematic, but a very dominant male can definitely be a issue for his subordinates. The key to keeping them in groups is to create as many visual barriers as you can and if you are breeding, to offer MANY laying sites throughout the tank. I would remove any eggs as soon as possible to avoid egg eating (very common issue IME). I think keeping imitators in pairs is the safer thing to do, but groups can be very rewarding without too much risk involved.

I do believe pumilio can do perfectly fine in groups and I've seen groups that have thrived for years together, I also believe that dominant frogs can be very aggressive to others that invade their territory. My first pumilio was a probable pair of Man Creeks that had been together of approximately 10-12 months in growout and quarantine conditions without any signs of aggression and they were both holding their weight well. The only time that problems started up was when I moved them into their permanent 20 gallon viv in which the more dominant one was able to claim territories. After settling in, the "female" in the pair started calling and was wrestling/stressing the other smaller male so much that he failed to recover after I separated them. I feel that groups of pumilio work well in many cases, but I would not recommend it to a beginner as the risk can be high.

John


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Very true, in the case of Tincs, I believe the group thing is not natural at all. Any losing competitor would be chased off. That said, having a pair together all year isn't natural either. By having many males or females it waters aggression down, so a single frog can't be bullied into a corner.
> 
> My observations so far. 4.3 Patricia in that size tank is ridiculous and they won't be staying like that. I was just trying an "experiment" and proved the above theory correct. At least in my case.
> 
> I've done as many as 5 males to a single female, but would never do the opposite. I don't think a single male could handle all the aggression a female could throw at him. It's hard enough in pairs sometimes. An example would be my 1.1 BYH. She's very aggressive towards him at times. My most aggressive Tinc, by far.


I will not recommend it, but heavily overstocking is an effective way of keeping aggression to a minimum. There is less aggression not only because it is spread out between more individuals, but because no one individual can claim a territory. The problem is that it is it really stresses the frogs because they literally have nowhere to hide from their peers and they cannot claim a safe place. 

It's also worth noting that even if a frog has high density populations in the wild, it might not work out well that way in captivity. Some animals are just too aggressive to live well with others in our tiny tanks.

John


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

FroggyKnight said:


> I will not recommend it, but heavily overstocking is an effective way of keeping aggression to a minimum. There is less aggression not only because it is spread out between more individuals, but because no one individual can claim a territory. The problem is that it is it really stresses the frogs because they literally have nowhere to hide from their peers and they cannot claim a safe place.
> 
> It's also worth noting that even if a frog has high density populations in the wild, it might not work out well that way in captivity. Some animals are just too aggressive to live well with others in our tiny tanks.
> 
> John


Agreed, the 4.3 group of Patricia will be getting an upgraded tank. 

As for the rest, they do fine together and have been for years.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Agreed, the 4.3 group of Patricia will be getting an upgraded tank.
> 
> As for the rest, they do fine together and have been for years.


Yup, as long as you have good visual barriers, I think the rest of your groups are perfect. 

The regina might be a bit overstocked too, but I can't say for sure since it's hard to know from numbers alone.

John


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

FroggyKnight said:


> Yup, as long as you have good visual barriers, I think the rest of your groups are perfect.
> 
> The regina might be a bit overstocked too, but I can't say for sure since it's hard to know from numbers alone.
> 
> John


There's lots of visual barriers and hides for them, which is key. One thing I like to do is dig out holes under wood pieces for additional hides. I don't see others doing that or maybe it doesn't show up in photos. But, it's a very natural behaviour to climb under a chunk of wood, rock, etc.

The Regina's are fine and quite happy in their little group. I almost never see any aggression with them. It may sound weird, but if you've been keeping them long enough and observed their behaviour for countless hours you can just "tell" that they're all good.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> There's lots of visual barriers and hides for them, which is key. One thing I like to do is dig out holes under wood pieces for additional hides. I don't see others doing that or maybe it doesn't show up in photos. But, it's a very natural behaviour to climb under a chunk of wood, rock, etc.
> 
> The Regina's are fine and quite happy in their little group. I almost never see any aggression with them. It may sound weird, but if you've been keeping them long enough and observed their behaviour for countless hours you can just "tell" that they're all good.


In my Luecs and Azureus I have "caves" that kinda just being there due to the shape of the wood. 1 of my male luecs claimed that spot and its where he retreats to every night. All of my Azureus live underground.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> There's lots of visual barriers and hides for them, which is key. One thing I like to do is dig out holes under wood pieces for additional hides. I don't see others doing that or maybe it doesn't show up in photos. But, it's a very natural behaviour to climb under a chunk of wood, rock, etc.
> 
> The Regina's are fine and quite happy in their little group. I almost never see any aggression with them. It may sound weird, but if you've been keeping them long enough and observed their behaviour for countless hours you can just "tell" that they're all good.


Good point about the wood, I do that as well. It can definitely make frogs feel much more secure. 

I know exactly what you mean about knowing the frogs are doing well. It is an acquired skill and the only way to really master it is to observe frogs for hours and hours. There is no substitute for experience!

John


----------



## scooter7728 (Sep 1, 2014)

But if you raise small groups together from froglets will they still be aggressive towards each other? Does this happen at a certain age? I have a few groups together but they are only 6/7months old. Is there a tank size to frog ratio you can keep together?


----------



## DJReptile (Mar 9, 2009)

Along the lines of hollows under wood. I've had very good results tearing compressed peat seedling pots into a few pieces and laying them on the ground next to my groundcover plants. The plants grow over them so it all looks nice and the animal has a very secure hiding place. Had this work really well for Cat Geckoes and smaller Cyrtos back when I kept them. They ended up being very popular egg deposition spots for some of the Cat Geckoes. I expect it would work for many darts as well.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FroggyKnight said:


> I don't keep many of my frogs in groups, but I have done so with R. imitator. I'm sure population density for this species is very high in areas and I see no real problem with having multiple male and/or female groups. I've kept both 3.2 and 2.2 groups of the banded and Tarapoto morphs in 30 gallon cubes with mixed results. Most of the time the frogs were not aggressive with each other, but I have had to separate both males and females due to fighting with the same sex. Females generally seemed to be the most problematic, but a very dominant male can definitely be a issue for his subordinates.


Do you suspect that this is because they are socially monogamous in the wild? JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 

I would also put out there that the way people plant up their enclosures can be a factor with frogs like some of the thumbnails and pumilio. What people need to supply is patch resources that have some form of seperation between the two patches so that one frog can't attempt to claim everything. 

Patch resources are just as important as visual barriers. Its just that too many people cram too much in the enclosures potentially reducing appropriate resources in favor of visual barriers. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> Agreed, the 4.3 group of Patricia will be getting an upgraded tank.
> .


I repeatedly bred tinctorius in large groups (6 animals) in enclosures as small as a "20 gallon long" for years. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Ed said:


> Do you suspect that this is because they are socially monogamous in the wild? JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> 
> I would also put out there that the way people plant up their enclosures can be a factor with frogs like some of the thumbnails and pumilio. What people need to supply is patch resources that have some form of seperation between the two patches so that one frog can't attempt to claim everything.
> 
> ...


I have long suspected that R. imitator is naturally monogamous, but I have not searched for literature to back up my suspicion. Thank you for the link, I will check that out when I have the chance. 

I agree with you about the patch resources and they are certainly as important as visual barriers. 

John


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed: Wouldn't visual barriers be a way to define patch resources? A tank with a piece of driftwood in the middle, and a group of tadpole rearing sites on each side would seem to be doing double duty in that case.


I don't know if anyone else has observed frogs fighting over food before? My pair of pumilio the female will attack the male during feeding time if he gets close to where she thinks most of the flies are. He croaks in protest, perhaps kicks at her a bit, and moves off to pick flies elsewhere. Both frogs maintain decent weight on weekly-biweekly feedings. Certainly for those with groups of frogs you'd want to distribute food more evenly to keep frogs from having to venture into defended patches of the tank to feed. 

I was at a zoo recently and they have a decent sized exhibit crawling with pumilio. The frogs were kept pretty darn fat though. Didn't observe any conflict during the short time I watched the exhibit.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Using visual barriers can contribute to having patch resources but you have to remember that it isn't just tadpole deposition sites that are under consideration. With tinctorius, you have to remember that the males also guard egg deposition sites, and females also guard access to the males. With pumilio, you have the males guarding preferred egg deposition sites and possibly calling perches and the females guard the tadpole deposition sites. 

When they are feeding how close to the tadpole deposition sites are the fruit flies located? Have you consider that could be more of a predictor of aggression by the female? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------

