# Cross breed tinc colors



## dragonkeeper (Mar 24, 2011)

I want your opinions on cross breeding color morphs. I dont want to mix differnt speices, but is it ok to mix morphs to get other variations? I have 2 pairs of tincs 1 powder and 1 citronella was wondering what the offspring would look like.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

For the love of God No!


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## ritersofly (Oct 23, 2010)

here we go again....


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## davy (Jul 13, 2010)

there are so many beautifull species of tinc's why should you crossbreed them.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

please search fixing
not to seem rude but please please please - this topic as been done to death - not your fault for bringing it up because your new but please search it


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## Gumby (May 27, 2010)

This should have been posted in the beginner section. Don't cross breed! Anyone else want to beat this dead horse?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Gumby said:


> This should have been posted in the beginner section. Don't cross breed! Anyone else want to beat this dead horse?


Kicks it once or twice and walks away.


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## dragonkeeper (Mar 24, 2011)

I'll search it then. I was only wondering cus i have only seen about 5 morphs and they seem to have a lot of color potential.


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## dragonkeeper (Mar 24, 2011)

Where is a good place 2 find ALL the morphs? thanks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dragonkeeper said:


> I'll search it then. I was only wondering cus i have only seen about 5 morphs and they seem to have a lot of color potential.


5 morphs?? There's like a million! Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide With so many great natural morphs to choose from why create unnatural morphs?


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

That is not cross-breeding. They are not domestic dogs, they are not different breeds. I'm not proposed to mixing different locales, but they are not different breeds. IMO

Jim


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

OK, maybe not a million, but quite a few on the link I cited. Watch out, there are a few on that list that are stated to be unnatural crosses.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dendrobatid said:


> That is not cross-breeding. They are not domestic dogs, they are not different breeds. I'm not proposed to mixing different locales, but they are not different breeds. IMO
> 
> Jim


True, not a crossbreed, but still an unnatural morph that the vast majority of the dart frog hobby prefers to avoid.


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## dragonkeeper (Mar 24, 2011)

Thanks man. I've had mine 2 yrs was looking for more but kept finding the same ones over and over


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

just to correct to my own mistake, earlier I typed "search fixing"
obviously i ment "search mixing" oops


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

I think there should be a behavior management group that focuses on teaching froggers how to appropriately respond to this question. A therapeutic approach that focuses on deep breathing and uses role play as a learning tool. 

Of course no body was out of line in how they responded this time. All ears kind of perked up and every body went "sshhh don't upset the super opinionated".


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I agree! I was trying to find many of Ed's educational statements on the subject.



Jeff R said:


> I think there should be a behavior management group that focuses on teaching froggers how to appropriately respond to this question. A therapeutic approach that focuses on deep breathing and uses role play as a learning tool.
> 
> Of course no body was out of line in how they responded this time. All ears kind of perked up and every body went "sshhh don't upset the super opinionated".


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

Mixing morphs could/would eventually lead to a total loss of natural morphs in the hobby. If you get frogs being shifted around with non-pure genetics, eventually we could lose all the natural genetics we have. We are trying to avoid "designer" morphs. Look at whats been done in the snake hobby. Yes, they breed some interesting snakes, but you cant find a snake with natural genetics in it anymore. There are so many kinds of darts with all sorts of colors that it's not necessary to crossbreed morphs/species to create a desirable or "pretty" morph. It would be so easy to just go around breeding frogs with whatever else they will breed with. By trying to keep the lineages pure, it's more of a challenge and worthwhile. Try to relish the challenge it presents to keep the lineages going strong. Lots of people came before you (and me!) that kept those lines going strong so you could have those different tincs you have.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I want to thank the community for answering these questions so I don't have an aneurysm.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Flesh, you crack me up!!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Dendrobatid said:


> That is not cross-breeding. They are not domestic dogs, they are not different breeds. I'm not proposed to mixing different locales, but they are not different breeds. IMO
> 
> Jim


Actually, they _are_ crossbreeds.... Technically they're called outcrossed, but the analogy is next to perfect. There are tons of natural morphs of tinctorius, and they're all technically the same species, but natural morphs come from isolated populations in the wild. They are different colors, different sizes, some of them have slightly different personalities, some are shier/bolder.... Similarly, different (pure) breeds of dogs are kept isolated from one another, they are different sizes, shapes, colors, hair length, but they're all Canis familiaris.... You can't approach breeds of dogs as species of dogs, they're just not the same....


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This comment creates a dogma without any rationale. The OP is asking a question. Even though the topic has been covered before, it would have been better to explain your postion, rather than just add an exclamation point to a dogmatic sentence.

If you didn't want to take the time to explain why this isn't the best idea, your postion might have been better served by just passing over this thread.

Take care, Richard.



Gumby said:


> This should have been posted in the beginner section. Don't cross breed! Anyone else want to beat this dead horse?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Jake,

While I would agree that there is a lot of "native" diversity in the appearance of D. tinctorius colormorphs, I don't think it is at all clear how these colormorphs are distributed in nature. It seems that some of the morphs we see are natural intergrades between two other colormorphs. 

So I would say that, while some outcrossing appears to occur naturally in D. tinctorius, there does exist enough natural variation in those colormorphs to provide the hobby with plenty of satisfying variety (making the need for artifical out-crossing unecessary).

Just my opinion, of course. Richard.




SmackoftheGods said:


> Actually, they _are_ crossbreeds.... Technically they're called outcrossed, but the analogy is next to perfect. There are tons of natural morphs of tinctorius, and they're all technically the same species, but natural morphs come from isolated populations in the wild. They are different colors, different sizes, some of them have slightly different personalities, some are shier/bolder.... Similarly, different (pure) breeds of dogs are kept isolated from one another, they are different sizes, shapes, colors, hair length, but they're all Canis familiaris.... You can't approach breeds of dogs as species of dogs, they're just not the same....


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

dragonkeeper said:


> I want your opinions on cross breeding color morphs. I dont want to mix differnt speices, but is it ok to mix morphs to get other variations? I have 2 pairs of tincs 1 powder and 1 citronella was wondering what the offspring would look like.


Dragon, as you can tell, mixing of any kind is really frowned upon in the dart board community. Having myself raised ball pythons and seeing how that community is, it is rather refreshing to be a part of this group that likes to enjoy things as they were...or are....

However, anyone that has been to a Zoo has certainly seen the effects of mixing, as they will keep many different morphs together. Here is where it gets tricky. If you are dead set on mixing, there is no law to stop you. However, most likely if you are wanting to sell any of the offspring there will be no market for it as most will never knowingly buy a mixed frog, and you will be labled in the community as a "mixer" and will have a hard time selling anything.

That being said, there are some that for their own private collection have mixed in the past and not tried to sell them, and usually they keep quiet about it.

Again, if you really want to embrace the hobby, I would stay as far from the idea as possible. While mixing happens, the stand the community has on it has done a great job in making sure there is little to no market for such frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobatid said:


> That is not cross-breeding. They are not domestic dogs, they are not different breeds. I'm not proposed to mixing different locales, but they are not different breeds. IMO
> 
> Jim


Jake is correct... this is actually crossbreeding. Crosses within a species of two differently adapted morphs/types/forms/breeds (whether adapted through artificial or natural selection is moot) result in crossbred animals regardless if the result was obtained through "domesticated animals" or non-domesticated animals. 
Historically this has been used for animals where hybrid was used to describe the same process in plants, although in recent years, the use of the word hybrid has cropped up in attempts to describe crossbreeding in animals which confuses the process.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Kudos from Ed? I have a warm fuzzy feeling in my tummy right now. I'm going to take a moment and bask....

Edit: looking back the above comment may have come across as sarcastic. It was not.



Woodsman said:


> Hi Jake,
> 
> While I would agree that there is a lot of "native" diversity in the appearance of D. tinctorius colormorphs, I don't think it is at all clear how these colormorphs are distributed in nature. It seems that some of the morphs we see are natural intergrades between two other colormorphs.
> 
> ...


Richard, you're right. It's not clear at _all_ the natural distribution of tinctorius (I really wish when all of these morphs were being imported better care had been taken to detail where they had come from). There have been discussions on the board about the possibility that some morphs in the hobby were artificially selected despite having come from the same contiguous population. And I suspect, with all the morphs of tincs, that there probably are a few tinc populations that naturally outcross (although this is merely speculation and should not be taken as fact). However, I think you and I can both agree that there are obviously a large number of distinct and isolated populations of tinctorius, despite the lack of specific data on the subject.

And I'll agree with you, with all of the diversity among tinctorius, there really is no reason to outcross these frogs. Find the tinc you like (because if you look hard enough you _will_ find a tinc that you like) and stick with it.


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