# can leucs dig tunnels?



## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

I was changing some things in my leuc tank and i picked up one of the pieces of driftwood and I found a series of tunnels with one of my leucs in there. I think thats where they sleep at night because normally i never see them at night. I really never knew they were capable of digging tunnels


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

I have one trio that does.


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Tunnels? I'm picturing like in an ant mound?


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

not like an ant mound more of like uhh.. a snake hole type of thing. I checked again 2 minutes ago and all of them were in the tunnels


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Usually the tunnels would be built so the frogs could either A: Get to a cooler spot, or B: Get to a more humid environment. What are your temps and humidity like? Then again, if they're only there at night, and are healthy, then who cares?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

All of my frogs find spots to borrow in while they sleep. Those spots are everywhere from between pieces of wood, under bromiliads, in a tunnel of sorts formed between a piece of wood and the ground.



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## Guest (Feb 4, 2006)

For awhile one of our leucs burrowed a hole through the moss under the tray we set the cocohut on and he'd sleep there at night. It took me quite awile to figure out where he was going.

Another somehow found a little cave in the river rocks that make up their water feature. Not only was I amazed he found it, but still can hardly figure out how he got himself in there. 


Now we have Dracaena in the two leuc vivs and they've all decided that's a great place to wedge themselves into at night for bed. Guess they like the security of a small space for sleeping.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2006)

Tincs dig tunnels ? cool :lol:


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

My sips burrow under a rock they tunneled under to sleep. I couldn't figure out where they were sleeping until I saw them popping out from under the rock!


Jeff


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## Guest (Feb 5, 2006)

I could be wrong, but what I have seen more is that they'll back into an area, and if it's moist dirt, then that just gives way. I do not believe they do any sort of digging whatsoever, though I could see how that impression is given off because of the end product. Many species are leaf litter species, so they like to be partially or full obscured from sight in these leaves. If those are not available, they will use substitutes that will give them the same feeling of protection. I have never read any paper on the development of physiological adaptations for digging...
j


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## B Mack (May 11, 2005)

The leucs in my 90 gallon do tend to back into nooks wherever they can as opposed to tunneling --especially where the background meets the substrate. But since leucs estivate in the wild, it could be possible that they burrow into ground during the dry season. That's just a guess, can anyone back that up?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The problem with this is that they do not have any physical adaptations that would indicate burrowing. There are no spades, enlarged front legs or ossification of the head, changes in the placement of the eyes, underslinging of the jaw that supports the supposition that they can burrow. 
In both in enclosures and in the wild, I would suspect that they utilize naturally occuring cracks, crevices, or holes already occuring in the soil. In enclosures, these can occur where and whenever the soil settles allowing the frog access to the hole. Now this doesn't mean that if this is used every night that the simple movement of the frog will not widen the hole or make it more conform to the shape of the frog, they simply do not have any physical adaptations that allow for true burrowing. 

Ed


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## B Mack (May 11, 2005)

True, they certainly don't have any of the obvious physical characteristics like burrowing toads. I just wonder that there was no selection for an active means of finding a suitable estivation site. Then again, their natural habitat should provide ample sites.

Sorry to hijack, but while we are on burrowing, has anyone seen the purple burrowing frog (Nasikabatrachus sahyadrensis)? That animal is wacky looking for sure. Is there institution in the Northeast keeping them? I'd love to see one.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

It looks alot like a mole. 












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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

As stated before - I have Leucs that have a tunnel of sorts. It is fairly modest in length. I have Galacts, spotted Auratus and other morphs that actually have an impressive tunnel system. I don't have the sense that they "tunnel" per se - yet they clearly climb into a small void and over time manage to clear a path - whether it is through repetitive body positioning or some other nuance means. The spotted Auratus has an underground tunnel that runs about 4-5" in length and is well-defined - much like an ant farm tunnel.

I only found it when they had disappeared for two weeks and I had to go looking for them.

I have a pair of Orange Galacts that sleep underground every night.


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## lukebalsavich (Feb 14, 2006)

I think it might be relevant to mention that frogs can't read, and therefore do not read books about themselves, and so they do not know what they have adaptations for. A vivarium is not the wild.... so they are not always going to act the same way they naturally would. I believe such changes has an important role in evolution.

I think what is most important about these tunnels, is that the frogs are not in danger from any tunnels collapsing.

Suerte,

Luke


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi B Mack,



> The leucs in my 90 gallon do tend to back into nooks wherever they can as opposed to tunneling --especially where the background meets the substrate. But since leucs estivate in the wild, it could be possible that they burrow into ground during the dry season. That's just a guess, can anyone back that up?


Do you have a reference in the primary literature that describes the estivation behavior of Dendrobates leucomelas?

Thanks!
~B


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " I think it might be relevant to mention that frogs can't read, and therefore do not read books about themselves, and so they do not know what they have adaptations for. " endsnip

I also do not expect them to start flying because they haven't read that they do not have wings.. 


snip "A vivarium is not the wild.... so they are not always going to act the same way they naturally would. I believe such changes has an important role in evolution. " endsnip 

So are you saying that we are placing an evolutionary pressure to begin burrowing in leucs kept in captivity? 

Ed


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## lukebalsavich (Feb 14, 2006)

No Ed, I did not mean that. Wow after re-reading my own post, I see I need to pay more attention to grammer.

I didn't word that very well, and didn't really structure my argument , as it was suppose to be more of a joke... but really creatures sometimes do things quite out of the ordinary. And when I mentioned that I believe 'such changes' are important to evolution, I really meant that when creatures act in a way that they do not normally act, evolutionary adaptation could follow. Although I would imagine that many creatures that deviate from the norm in the wild end up dead from their activities (the pdf that did try to fly! :wink: ) 

In an unnatural setting, I believe we can expect creatures to deviate from their normal behaviors to an even greater extent. 
Take a frog that, for whatever reason, ends up in a place where it has to move around alot, while in its natural habitat it does not normally move nearly as far. After many generations of these frogs moving around, you might begin to find frogs with longer legs. There it is, a frog acting in a way that it would not normally act in its natural setting and evolutionary adaptation could be the result. I believe something was recently published about this kind of a thing happening in Australia- perhaps in Nature.

Luke


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## B Mack (May 11, 2005)

Ben_C,

Walls mentions it in the leucs chapter of Jewels of the Rainforest and I recall reading it elsewhere. 

From the bibliography in the back of the book:

Gorzula, S. 1988 [=1990]. "Una nueva especie de _Dendrobates_ (Amphibia, Dendrobatidae) del Macizo del Chimanta, Estado Bolivar, Venenzuela," Mem. Soc. Cienc. Nat. La Salle, 48(130): 143-149. [E. rufulus]


Note to self, keep scientific musing to myself, remember you're an English major that works in finance!!


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## B Mack (May 11, 2005)

PS Ben_C-- According to the citation in the text you'll find a reference to leuc estivation in the personal comments of Gorzula's paper. If you're looking for research on reduction of metabolic rate or anything more specific, I wouldn't know where to find that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I didn't word that very well, and didn't really structure my argument , as it was suppose to be more of a joke... but really creatures sometimes do things quite out of the ordinary. And when I mentioned that I believe 'such changes' are important to evolution, I really meant that when creatures act in a way that they do not normally act, evolutionary adaptation could follow. Although I would imagine that many creatures that deviate from the norm in the wild end up dead from their activities (the pdf that did try to fly! ) endsnip

Mine was meant as a joke to indicate how it could have been taken. There needs to be a selective pressure placed on the animal before the evolution can occur. With respect to dendrobatid frogs I would expect pressure to develop adaptations for burrowing to be of very low pressure mainly because of the lack of consistant pressure applied to the frogs by the hobby in general. If you want to consider where we are applying real evolutionary pressure it would be on the fact that the vast majority of people do not allow the frogs to rear thier own eggs and transport the tadpoles... This is a heavy pressure on the frogs to drop these behaviors, and when you consider the reproductive rates some people get from thier frogs, the risk of this change occuring goes up (there is a great section in E.O. Wilson's Sociobiology book that covers this in depth). 


snip "In an unnatural setting, I believe we can expect creatures to deviate from their normal behaviors to an even greater extent. " endsnip 

Only if thier normal behaviors are not plastic enough to handle the changes in the enviroment. I do not think that we have seen very much if anything of this sort recorded for dendrobatid frogs.... 


snip "Take a frog that, for whatever reason, ends up in a place where it has to move around alot, while in its natural habitat it does not normally move nearly as far. After many generations of these frogs moving around, you might begin to find frogs with longer legs. There it is, a frog acting in a way that it would not normally act in its natural setting and evolutionary adaptation could be the result. I believe something was recently published about this kind of a thing happening in Australia- perhaps in Nature. " 

What you are referring to is a slight morphological change that is occuring in Marine Toads (Bufo marinus) in Australia. The leading edge of the colonization of the B. marinus have longer legs and can move faster this causes them to have a selective advantage in colonizing new habitat over the slower moving toads that have shorter legs. The toad is still acting normally, it has simply developed (in some of the population) a morphological advantage to enhance its colonization. However, we do not know if this is a permanent adaptation or is simply an example of plasticity in the phenotype (such as occurs with finchs in the Galapagoes Islands during periods of drought)..... 

If I remember correctly, this physical difference becomes submerged once the trailing edge of the colonization wave catches up.... 

Ed


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