# Plant recs for a Turtle Paludarium



## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

Any recommendations for a grass or moss or something of that sort for a turtle basking area?

I have a 75 gallon tank that I installed a glass divider at one end to make a basking area for my African Sideneck/Helmeted turtle. There is some gravel at the bottom and it is filled with organic miracle grow soil. My original thought was to grow regular grass there for a mini lawn. The grass did grow, but I likely didn't water it as much as I could have. The humidity is usually around 90%, so the grass didn't so much dry out, but it didn't grow great roots either. It's also kind of tough to "mow". I'm looking for something that is relatively flat, can with stand the light from my Fluval 3.0 plant LED aquarium light (although it is not directly over the area), and 12 hours/day of the heat/UVB Hg vapor bulb. I'd like to have it planted to keep the turtle from burrowing into the dirt and to not have him drag dirt/sand/gravel back into the water part of the tank.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I won't discourage you, but you should have a plan B, and the ingredients necessary if your predictions dont keep, in light of the inadvertantly destructive activities of what is a pretty strong knockabout species, that will dig just for the heck of it. Just because they smell dirt.

I use cork, flat rock and slate with turtles and moss grows really good on waterlogged cork shard. Under the heat lamps it stays bare, though it's free to grow there.

Friends I have known have tried to grow grass and it was like you said


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## dwllama (Aug 29, 2020)

I can't think of any specific appropriate plants offhand but I had a couple other comments (and to help keep your post on the current page ) 

It's probably going to be difficult to establish any plant in a location where an animal is already burrowing on a regular basis, or do you have another tank to house him while you let things grow?

If he's burrowing though it probably serves some environmental or psychological need for the turtle. Maybe someone with turtle experience can weigh in.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

I hate to say it, but you might be biting off more than a 75 gallon can chew while still appropriately providing space for the turtle. If you're looking for a more natural enclosure, you might have to look into a custom turtle enclosure. An aquarium with a 48x18 floor print isn't going to provide you with the space to do what you're after. Check out some of the pond liner builds people do, basically it's a wooden frame box that's built around a preformed pond liner. Outside of the liner are ground areas that are setup to sustain vegetation and dry areas for turtles to bask or eat. 

In order to build what you're talking about in an aquarium you'd have to make sure that the aquarium water cannot leak and saturate the terrestrial portion. Not only would that take away from dry land, but that saturated earth and turtle waste would turn vile. To do this in an aquarium, you'd basically have to silicon a piece of glass in to create that dry area, but with only 48" of length you would be taking a significant chunk of swimming space away. Not only that, turtles claws after a while can and will carve up the silicon and there will be a leak at some point. I've yet to hear of a turtle have a permanent aquarium home. 

Just food for thought. Depending where you live and your climate, you might be able to set this enclosure up outside and have it fenced in. Otherwise you're looking at something that's around 6-7' x 4-5' x 3-4' taking up a room and making sure if it's not on a ground level that the floors can support the weight.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Tihsho said:


> I hate to say it, but you might be biting off more than a 75 gallon can chew while still appropriately providing space for the turtle. If you're looking for a more natural enclosure, you might have to look into a custom turtle enclosure. An aquarium with a 48x18 floor print isn't going to provide you with the space to do what you're after. Check out some of the pond liner builds people do, basically it's a wooden frame box that's built around a preformed pond liner. Outside of the liner are ground areas that are setup to sustain vegetation and dry areas for turtles to bask or eat.
> 
> In order to build what you're talking about in an aquarium you'd have to make sure that the aquarium water cannot leak and saturate the terrestrial portion. Not only would that take away from dry land, but that saturated earth and turtle waste would turn vile. To do this in an aquarium, you'd basically have to silicon a piece of glass in to create that dry area, but with only 48" of length you would be taking a significant chunk of swimming space away. Not only that, turtles claws after a while can and will carve up the silicon and there will be a leak at some point. I've yet to hear of a turtle have a permanent aquarium home.
> 
> Just food for thought. Depending where you live and your climate, you might be able to set this enclosure up outside and have it fenced in. Otherwise you're looking at something that's around 6-7' x 4-5' x 3-4' taking up a room and making sure if it's not on a ground level that the floors can support the weight.


This ^ ^ very much this.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> This ^ ^ very much this.


+1



> something that's around 6-7' x 4-5' x 3-4


That sounds about right except I bet you could cheat the depth a little. In grad school I had an acquaintance who was a serious turtle guy. Some tortoises, but mostly semi-aquatic Emydids / Geoemydids. Maybe the odd fully aquatic Chelid or whatever. He owned his own house and had a fairly unfinished basement (insulated, rough-plumbed & -wired yes - walls, doors, fixtures, flooring etc no) that was nothing but turtle ponds. It looked like "backstage" at an AZA facility - he was in the veterinary program so was super into top-shelf husbandry. Nothing to look at, but a pleasure to behold for its functionality and also how automated & relatively low-maintenance he had made it.

Anyway mostly his ponds / tanks were on one level, but he also had some doubled-up in height. If one is on the ground, and one is above it up about belly height, it's doable. Especially if the higher one is a little smaller, and doesn't need high opaque sides. The structure to hold the upper tank can hold the lighting for the lower tank, and any plumbing runs for either height.

This guy Cord mostly had livestock water tanks, but also some plastic tubs and a few wood-framed, pond-linered rigs. Some cages were a higher-sided, lined plywood box, with a lower-sided water tank set (like this https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/behlen-country-round-end-sheep-stock-tank-50-gal) inside it, with a diggable "soil mix" in the plywood box filled up to almost level with the water tank rim. He had zero fish tanks. Zero. His plumbing was AMAZING. Basement full of damp turtles - *got stink*? ha ha. He did not. Amazing.

Anyway - sorry man. Lose the fish tank, I'd say - at least, as a turlte pen. They just get too big and are too active. But treating them right opens the door to *fabulous adventures* in crafting and animal husbandry!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I dont have time to frame it in a quote, but leaning toward the function and format of hygiene husbandry really has to be at the forefront of enclosure design.

Luckily basking, swimming and walking are uncomplicated activities to build for. 

The Tear/Claw At/Spit Out/ Then Eat, and do it all over again makes for greater putridity in the water due to fragmented and released fluid food matter, than the excrement, so a feeding tub will actually keep the water quality cleaner, no matter how filtered to an extent I cant exaggerate.

As a tie to deficiencies, shell infections and skin ulcers are the the most frequent vet visit occurances with turtles.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

jgragg said:


> +1
> That sounds about right except I bet you could cheat the depth a little.


Don't forget you need sides. Turtles are smart and if they have the opportunity to get out, they will damn well try. Might not be to flee from their home, but because they want to explore.



Kmc said:


> The Tear/Claw At/Spit Out/ Then Eat, and do it all over again makes for greater putridity in the water due to fragmented and released fluid food matter, than the excrement, so a feeding tub will actually keep the water quality cleaner, no matter how filtered to an extent I cant exaggerate.
> 
> As a tie to deficiencies, shell infections and skin ulcers are the the most frequent vet visit occurances with turtles.


Something setup like this can easily be setup and plumbed to a drain in a home. To keep up with water conditions a constant (albeit slow) feed of fresh water (if you're not on city water with chlorine) would do wonders for the overall condition of the animal. Not only would you have to go through less overall large water changes, but you can keep the organic content in the water diluted so it it doesn't smell. Only time I had turtles was when I was a kid and my dad brought them home. Fun animals to keep, but if the water isn't kept up it can get nasty in not too long of a time.


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## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

I appreciate all the cautions and warnings etc. My turtle, Sheldon, was found in a back yard in Minneapolis last September, and was not going to survive the winter, so our journey began.

About Sheldon: I have no idea how old he is. He is about 6 inches in shell length. His species usually does not grow more than 8 inches in length, though the longest recorded was 12.8 inches. He is mostly carnivorous and is currently spoiled and refuses anything but live nightcrawlers. 
He does have access to anacharis and water lettuce which he has eaten in the past, but none for months now. He doesn't mess with the plants in his tank, (Anubias, java fern, anacharis), which does mean he doesn't make as much of a mess as he could. 
He is more of a bottom walker than a full column water swimmer and the recommended water depth for him I am told is 1.5-2x shell length. He doesn't like to work hard to get to the surface to breath and doesn't do a ton of swimming.
He has a vet who is an exotic specialist. She diagnosed him with hookworm and flukes and he has since been cured. He has a heat lamp and a UVB lamp. He gets outside time when it is warm.

He is in a 55 g bow front at the moment and has been for most of the time I've had him. I know he needs more room, thus the 75 g which I've been working on making great for him. , so not much clawing at the silicone, no leaks. Recommended water depth for his 6 inch shell length is 9-12 inches. I have a canister filter on his tank and do partial water changes roughly weekly. He is almost exclusively carnivorous, so doesn't shred the plants in his tank which would lead to a bigger mess. I turkey baster out the poo when I can do make thing last a little longer between water changes. 

I DID get a custom cut piece of tempered glass that is siliconed in at one end of the tank (not sure why my pictures didn't show up in the original post), at an angle to maximize land surface area and bottom of tank surface area. It has been installed, with some gravel on the bottom and the rest filled with organic MiracleGro soil, with no leaks for at least 6 months.

I have a glass lid over most of the tank with a small area free of glass for the UVB to shine through. This helps keep it warm enough and contain the humidity a bit so that not all of my windows are covered with moisture in the winter.

I'd love to have an outdoor pond for him at some point, but not practical for 6 months of the year here in Minnesota. I did have him out in a kiddie pool several times this summer with lots of water lettuce and water hyacinths for him to hide under. As far as indoor, I don't have that kind of space right now. 75g is the size that was recommended to me.

In the 75 g tank, I have a Fluval FX4 running on it with the water a little over half full, so am over filtering to make sure it can keep up with the level of waste produced by Sheldon.

Really, the last thing that needs to be done to be able to move him is to have the land area set up. I don't really know how hard he'll try to dig if there is much resistance. He has dug himself into mud in my neighbor's back yard, bu it was cool out and his species does aestivate during the dry season in Africa.

Currently the bottom of both tanks is lined with slate tile so it is "bare bottom" but more attractive, and give his claws a little something to grip onto when he decides he needs to move his custom built basking platform around. Apparently, turtles can eat gravel and get impacted, so that's a no-no as a substrate, Sand is used by some, but discouraged by others. 

In the big tank I have a couple of pieces of Malasian drift wood that I have turned into "planters" and have Amazon sword, Crypt wendetti, and anubias growing to give him some privacy screen. I have a couple types of Java fern glued to a piece of fake driftwood, and a good bunch of Ludwigia repens, some attached, some floating, in addition to water lettuce, water hyacinth (which I believe was used by my golden wonder killifish as a spawning mop), duck weed, and java moss. 

I have a christmas cactus and a spider plant growing in the land area, and a couple air plants resting on ledges of the background. Determining what land plants are turtle safe and the right size for the space has been a bit of a challenge.

If he does end up digging through whatever I plant, I can deal and I'll have to switch to something else. I just wanted to try and give him a nice land area and I figured it would be best to have the plants established before moving him over. 

Current tank:









Future tank:








Sheldon:


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## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

one of the pics I thought I posted in the original post:

view of land area from above:


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I will close input with this, to do with, as you will..

Clean water. With the proper siphon gear to make large capacity replacements. 

A Cavern in the aquatic portion. More than one, even better. He should be able to enter and turn around easily. It should be in keeper awareness per size as turtles ( and other reptiles) have been known to get stuck in hides that they have habituated to using for months, or even years, as they continue to grow. A snake getting 2nd quadrant stuck in a fake rock hole, means a towel, a pair of pliers, and a hammer. With a turtle underwater it means a drowned turtle. There can be freak accidents of marginals getting caught just so.

Land areas should have clearance for the turtle to comfortably position, change position and find its spot in thermoregulatory variety. 

The best "Plants" for a turtle is that which create overhanging cover - for the turtle. Even if they are fake. A fake overhanging shrub is more valuable to a turtle than a live plant that takes up a temp or light gradient spot, that the turtle wants to use.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Whatever you do with the plantings, I hope you separate that 110vac fixture from water using a barrier that you trust your life to.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Ah, so you already have the tank... If you didn't I was going to at least recommend something like this for you:










That would give you plenty of space to setup for Sheldon to bask as well as to have an actual land area to do whatever with. I've seen some turtle displays with those style turtle habitats where the keepers planted Strawberries and Lettuce so that if the turtle wanted to munch on something green it was there for them to do so.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I like your use of flat rock on the floor, and the pebbles are perfectly sized. 

It shows a good sense of where Sheldon spends most of his time, in Warmer water than our temperate species. and though rock bits can be inadvertently ingested by turtles without problems, it is not always the case. In a closed system there can be nutrient seeking behaviors and they can either "over do it" or swallow the wrong rock..

I think you have a good sense of what he needs, and have also a love of plants. 

Of every thing said so far, by me who loves to engage with The Engaged, I hope you consider providing a cavern. A Big cavern that you allow to get quite lush and wavy with green at the entrance. This will be the most meaningful artifact for him, next to his occasional haul outside under his lamp.

Thank you for rescuing him. On behalf of every turtle that has ever been dropped off in a bucket or box, with an odyssey similiar to Sheldon. Hopefully as fortunate.


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## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Whatever you do with the plantings, I hope you separate that 110vac fixture from water using a barrier that you trust your life to.


Thus the reason I've been preparing the 75 gallon tank for him. It is not easy to combine UVB, heat, and a lid. The original mercury vapor bulb I had for him was not providing adequate UVB per my Vet's measurements and she recommended the old T8 style UVB bulbs as being the best, but then I had to add heat to the same area.

Now if only I could figure out if there were any grasses, mosses, sedges, or such that would grow well in his basking area....


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

eeyberg said:


> Now if only I could figure out if there were any grasses, mosses, sedges, or such that would grow well in his basking area....


How about a small area of faux turf? It would be more functional than anything live. You could get two or three pieces and rotate them out for cleaning.

I would think that folks on a turtle forum would have this all figured out. Have you asked turtle people?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I am a turtle person.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kmc said:


> I am a turtle person.


I didn't mean to imply otherwise. 

A dedicated forum, on whatever topic, doesn't just happen to have one or two people knowledgeable on other subjects; a dedicated forum has a critical mass of people who can check and balance each other, and has a collective knowledge of members X years of experience to draw on.

The current thread is relevant enough given that DBers know a lot about viv plants generally, but since this thread has seemingly come up a bit short of what the OP wanted, the suggestion to look to a more relevant source is appropriate.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I've kept them, bred them, healed them and instructed others on their care professionally since 1981.

Just because a person is on a particular forum means little really.

There are more amateurs gone wild on turtle forums than practically any other reptile genre.

Just sayin.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I answer only to not have some points I feel very pertinent diluted by informational chaos. That is all, honest.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The mercury bulbs have a rapid uvb deprecation rate, and they are not dimmable. I like to use 2 10.0s and 2 spots in domes on separate lamp dimmers. The integrated dimmers on the cords of commercial domes frequently fail. 

It's all about coverage. You can double up. I usually do and moss will grow lavishly on wet cork. My spotted tank looks like Edward scissorhands yard. Even the filter and part of the walls are covered.

But the high end radiant zone will not grow anything, because its appropriate for basking but incompatible with the growth of moss. Radiant heat loving plants? Sure. I dont know what they are, but the priority of the basking area is for The Turtle to comfortably bask. It is a crucial need for the turtle to have an unhindered basking surface. There isnt a whole native embankment to choose from. Putting plants there isnt really the most useful focus, turtle centrically.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If they arent in a steal-able spot, I dont use a lid for turtles. I anchor lamps to the shelf, wall, or at home I like the zoomed lampstands. The lampstands are probably worth 20 or 30 more other commercial inventions. 

I find using undercabinet fixtures superior to hoods, spatially and performance wise, when they are located in close with heat.

If there isnt a good spot to fix them you can do what I have done sometimes and use grate shelving and place them on there. I have siphon hose clips securing it on both ends. The open bars allow your uvb values, and you can move re arrange at will. And they dont look that bad.

I get the space for gear thing. It's important that the radiant heat and uvb tube support each other over the bask area. 

Lids can really dictate placement. However you arent limited to using dome fixtures. Though some will say they protect the bulb from getting splashed there's ways to minimize that too. There are streamlined inc fixtures well suited and more streamlined. I have a 2nd hand set of german designed super articulated halogen lamps I use on some lizards encl that require a lid. They saved me alot of work with how small and versatile they are, on exo terra tops I no longer
can entertain replacement for because of my back.

I hope you find the plants you seek. And keep some other things in motion, to consider.


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## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

Kmc said:


> If they arent in a steal-able spot, I dont use a lid for turtles. I anchor lamps to the shelf, wall, or at home I like the zoomed lampstands. The lampstands are probably worth 20 or 30 more other commercial inventions.
> 
> I find using undercabinet fixtures superior to hoods, spatially and performance wise, when they are located in close with heat.
> 
> ...


KMC,

I really do appreciate all the concern and advice. I have spent tons of time and over $1,000 at this point trying to do right by this turtle. Despite the fact that you can buy them at PetSmart, There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistent reliable information on Helmeted turtles and they seem lumped with african mud turtles much of the time, and I don't know if that's really correct. I majored in Biology and have a medical degree, so I know how to read science. I've dug up some journal articles about Helmeted turtles to try and get good information. For example, I can't even find how intense the UVB light is supposed to be for Shelly. The little charts available from the bulb manufacturers don't have his species listed, and neither does the very exhaustive BIAZA Ferguson zone information from the journal of Zoo and Aquarium research. 

I need a lid on the aquarium because I live in Minnesota. I cannot heat my house to the temps that Shelly requires. Also the amount of evaporation would be extraordinary and likely cause bad things to happen to the structure of my house. 

For the 75 G tank, I figured out that I can use Joist Hooks over the edge of the tank to hold a long T10 fixture below the lid but well above the water. I also got a custom piece of tempered glass to replace one of the panels so there is an open square in one corner which is my planned basking spot, so I think I've Macgyver'd a pretty good set up at this point. Lots of wandering through Home Depot wondering why the things that I think should exist don't....

In the end, I'm just trying to make him a nice naturalish place for Sheldon to hang out.
This forum has such amazingly inspiring builds and so much plant information that it is inspiring and I was hoping someone here would have the perfect plant to recommend. 

I've been on the turtle forums, and really haven't found much in the way of having a land area beyond a rubbermaid bin with some sand/peat so that females will have something to lay their eggs in. 

Maybe I'll try a small piece of sod and see what happens....


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Depending where in your home the enclosure is situated, you can run a dehumidifier to keep up with the evap as to not damage your home. I'd be concerned with running glass lids with an internal bulb heat source as there is little to no ventilation to prevent extreme heat if something goes wrong with the light cycle.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Within a foot range, and I many, many set ups, have allowed closer, esp, but not only,raising juveniles, A 10.0 zoomed will be fine. A 5.0 zoomed would also perform adequately in D3 conversion.There will be gradients and contact variabilities throughout the space. Shade is an important feature.

One trick is to use multiple spots/ceramics in a track arrangement . 

Im not crazy about glassing in fauna, but, to each is own i guess.


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## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> Depending where in your home the enclosure is situated, you can run a dehumidifier to keep up with the evap as to not damage your home. I'd be concerned with running glass lids with an internal bulb heat source as there is little to no ventilation to prevent extreme heat if something goes wrong with the light cycle.


My home is in Minneapolis. In winter, with forced air heating, the air can be VERY dry. So with indoor temps in the 60-70 degree range and humidity recommended to be15-40% depending on the outside temperature, Sheldon's home needs to be mostly enclosed in order to provide him with the heat and humidity that he requires and me to not go broke heating the house and having all the humidity freezing inside my not so well insulated walls.

I appreciate the suggestion of a dehumidifier, but the true problem is the temperature gradient and old houses.


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## eeyberg (Apr 2, 2020)

Talking with my exotic specialist vet today, she recommended against covering his haul out area in sand due to the risk of him eating it and getting impacted as well as the hassle of it getting into his water. She actually recommended creeping charlie as a possible plant to cover his haul out. 

Any thoughts on Mosses that would do well other than right under his UVB Hg vapor bulb?


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

Sand is never good for a haul out/basking area. The abrasiveness of sand and shell on a dry environment seems like a bad mix. Conversely I've kept every aquatic species of turtle I've owned with a sand substrate in the main water portion. Never had impaction once, nor shell issues. I do recommend the following: 50% or more weekly water changes, UVB/basking haul out that is fully up out of the water, notice I didn't say dried out because with something like cork bark it'll always be a little moist, and mimic the environment and water parameters the species comes from. Spotted turtles, most subspecies of spiny softshell, most SA turtles ( like a mata mata ) need acidic water, preferably tannin stained. Fly river, a good majority of Australian sidenecks, and map turtles like the water hard and alkaline within reason, don't go full Tanganyika, i.e. a pH of 9. I personally like a Zoo Med Powersun HID Metal Halide over my basking area thus providing heat and UVB in one shot complimented with a Zoo Med T5HO UVB bulb spanning the entirety of the enclosure. Might be overkill, but say with a species like a Stripe necked musk that isn't even remotely close to a basker such as Pink bellied Sideneck, I know its getting some UVB. 
As for plants, Ive had good luck with Water Lettuce, Amazon Swords, and Jungle Val (but only with smaller carnivorous species) in the aquatic portion. For above the waterline but with roots dangling Ive done great with a diverse groups of plants such as: ,Willow tree (dwarfed obviously), Pothos, Red Mangrove propagules, Chamaedorea, Creeping Jenny, Tradescantia zebrina, Peace lily, Creeping fig, and I even got Sedum sarmentosum to grow down a drip wall and flourish for me several years ago. If I had to recommend just 1 of these plants it'd be the Pothos. It puts out an extensive root system into the water, supposedly sucks up a lot of nitrates, and will start cling to a drip wall, faux rock, cork bark background quite readily. 
Once again let me reiterate that the 50% or more water changes are the single most important thing to do.


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