# Thumbnails Colony Tank



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Hi, I am in the middle of starting a huge breeding project with dendrobates ventrimaculata. I'm looking for some feedback and ideas from you guys.

I'll be importing about 50 frogs. maybe twice as more.

My first plan was to divide the frogs in 20g clear plastic bins with 5 frogs in each.I have heard of people keeping them in them, even breeding them.
Of course the tanks would be heavily planted, etc etc..

Should I go barebottom? I was thinking of using mostly tsilandias, bromeliads and driftwood all mounted into one big piece I could easily lift, and use paper towels at the bottom for practical use. or gravel, spagnum moss and leaf litter if absolutely necessary.

What are your thoughts on misting systems for these types of tanks, 
i could easily drill a hole in them but they seem less sturdy than glass.

I'd like your input on this setup to optimize it. 

The advantage of this method is that it is low cost but a little too "industrial" looking to me.

NOW THE REAL DEAL:

I was thinking of doing a huge colony setup. I have seen breeders in Costa Rica do it with pumillio, it surely can be done with vents aswell.
Basically they fenced of an area around a tree, placed a couple film canisters and thats it.
The frogs would all stay there and breed, Hundreds of them.

Anyways, how many gallons do you guys think I need =)

I'd be housing 50 frogs in there, huge display tank, possibly very high with many ledges and driftwood
Made of plywood with one sliding glass panel.
It would be so heavily planted, I would literally put a tree in there.

I was thinking 6 feet long/4 feet wide/6 feet tall. 
No water feature, just plain ol' fogger and ol'mister.
And a good drainage layer. gravel, spagnum and leaf litter.
For lights I'd go with some t5's, I've got a few 48'' strips laying around but I am worried they may not be enough to light at full depth of 6 feet.
I also have an old reef tank 3x 250W Metal halides but it gets really hot 
so maybe Leds ?
For aeration, four PC fans two on top and two near the bottom to have an air exchange near the leaf litter aswell.


I really want to improve this setup, a colony setting would be practical (genetically speaking) and look awesome.

Let me know what you guys think.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

My first thoughts are it sounds like an interesting project. But I do have a couple of questions.
1. Why would you import 50-100 specimens of a species that is readily available captive bred.
2. What are your plans with the hundreds of offspring you could potentially produce from a species that is already in relatively low demand from the hobby?


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> My first thoughts are it sounds like an interesting project. But I do have a couple of questions.
> 1. Why would you import 50-100 specimens of a species that is readily available captive bred.
> 2. What are your plans with the hundreds of offspring you could potentially produce from a species that is already in relatively low demand from the hobby?


While I agree with these points, I have talked in the past of doing a huge colony of vents in a big viv. However, 15 seems like a more reasonable number to start with.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

They are captive bred aswell in Costa Rica, the minimum order is 50 heads.

Here in Canada, especially in Quebec, there are almost no dart frogs, of any species. I've seen blue tincs go for 150$ in pet shops, once. Never saw a dart frog again after that.
Its not that there is no demand, there is no offer.

I'm guessing I could sell them for about 60 to 80$.

As for the species,I was just looking into breeding some non obligatory egg feeders.
And I chose vents by availability. 
I could also get some pumillio easily from another breeder.

Since I can get them fairly cheap, I'd probably sell half to pet shops,
the remaining 50 or so would produce a considerable amount of offspring for me to sell 3 months later lets say.

I wouldn't really care about saturating the market as there is virtually no competiton on as large a scale as mine. people usually only breed trios.
I've got a whole business model planned out, website, pet shops etc etc.. 
I should be able to pass the frogs along fine.
Here in Canada that isn't a problem.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ChRoMiS said:


> Should I go barebottom? I was thinking of using mostly tsilandias, bromeliads and driftwood all mounted into one big piece I could easily lift, and use paper towels at the bottom for practical use. or gravel, spagnum moss and leaf litter if absolutely necessary.


Just for practicallity and ease of maintenance, I would recommend a good substrate (not gravel) and leaf litter on the bottom. This way you can have a microfauna population to supplement feeding your frogs, and they would act as a clean up crew so you wouldn't have to clean the frogs' poop.



> What are your thoughts on misting systems for these types of tanks,
> i could easily drill a hole in them but they seem less sturdy than glass.


A misting system would certainly be easier than hand misting all those setups. And I do believe plastic is easier to drill than glass.



> I was thinking of doing a huge colony setup. I have seen breeders in Costa Rica do it with pumillio, it surely can be done with vents aswell.
> Basically they fenced of an area around a tree, placed a couple film canisters and thats it.
> The frogs would all stay there and breed, Hundreds of them.
> 
> ...


If it were me personally, I would put several small shrubs with lots of branches in there instead of one tree, to give the frogs more room and options to hop around.

I think the main disadvantage of a setup like this is keeping track of all those frogs. Making sure you're feeding them enough, etc...

Also, just out of curiosity, where are you located?


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ChRoMiS said:


> I wouldn't really care about saturating the market as there is virtually no competiton on as large a scale as mine. people usually only breed trios.
> I've got a whole business model planned out, website, pet shops etc etc..
> I should be able to pass the frogs along fine.
> Here in Canada that isn't a problem.


Have you checked out Understory Enterprises? They are located in Canada as well.
Home | Understory Enterprises

A potential problem with your business plan is that although competition might be low, I'd imagine demand for dart frogs in Canada is equally low. And breaking into a market that has a well-established competitor like EU might be hard


----------



## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

ChRoMiS said:


> They are captive bred aswell in Costa Rica, the minimum order is 50 heads.
> 
> Here in Canada, especially in Quebec, there are almost no dart frogs, of any species.


Home | Understory Enterprises

EDIT : AHHH .... You beat me to it


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Yeah I know UE and I don't see why I couldn't become a major competitor with time and dedication. 
Right now he has a monopolistic advantage. He has all the market because he is the only supplier. However I'd be able to supply the same product, at a lower price and at lower shipping expenses since I'd be available locally.
I would become another large scale supplier/breeder in canada.
Besides I don't see any of his frogs in pet shops.
He mostly adresses to the collectors out there. 
I'll be there for the newbies with a "cheap and easy" frog.

I'd mostly supply pet shops and sell to Canadian hobbyists online. International in the future aswell.
A 6 000 sq feet warehouse is along the way aswell 
Possibly a year.
A breeding farm "in situ" is on the horizon aswell, possibly in Nicaragua.

However, for now,I have a 3000 sq feet humid basement.
I'd be breeding mostly amphibians (dart frogs, tree frogs) and reptiles such as chameleons and geckos to sustain the pet shops across Canada.

The business model is not the question guys, I really want a large colony setup for my home.

I'll probably end up keeping 20 to 25 frogs out of the initial import.
So lets say a 20 something colony setup.

Any experience with large groups of frogs??


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Oh, there are so many things that could go wrong with this.....

A couple of questions:

How many frogs do you have now? Are you currently selling frogs to pet stores already? How many pet stores have money in hand and are waiting for you to import these frogs? Have any stores put deposits on your frogs yet? If they sold a frog for $150, you need to ask why they didn't order more?

Are you going to pull eggs? Tads? Have you raised 100 tads at a time before?

Are you doing this to make money? How many people do you know, or even heard of that make a ton of money selling frogs out of their house?

What do you plan to do for marketing? Specifically, I mean. Having a website doesn't mean you are automatically going to be successful. 

What if you can't sell them as easily as you think? How are you going to stop them from breeding? Do you have the space for 50 or more FF cultures? Find out how much time Shawn spends on his frogs and why he switched to only obligates. What if life hits and you need to unload the frogs? Who's going to buy 300 frogs? Just look in the classifieds for collection sales, it happens.

I'm a small business consultant and to be perfectly honest, I see this as a train wreck. I wish you the best, and I hope it works, but I think you should rethink your plan...


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

So your asking about set-ups and how to breed the frogs and population densities, yet you've already planned out importing, a 6000 sq ft warehouse, business plan and an in-situ breeding farm?

You're putting the cart before the horse and setting yourself up for failure. 
There are already plenty of hobbyists in Canada that are breeding darts and supplying the demand for them.


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

This is how many businesses fail before they start: 

Hey if I can sell frogs for $80 and undercut the "other" people selling frogs, then all I have to do is get 100 frogs and they'll breed like crazy. 100 frogs at $80 is $8000! And they'll breed every couple of weeks! I'm going to be making $16,000 a month!!!


----------



## GTFX (Jul 21, 2013)

If these are your goals..I'd almost want to tell you not to post them here on a frog hobbyist forums as in my opinion goes against everything that this hobby is and as many people have said is just a train wreck waiting to happen where countless frogs will be getting the shitty end of the stick ..just my 2cents..does Rich Frye check this forum? cause he would be losing his sh!t.


----------



## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

The thing with UE is that we know exactly how they get their frogs, and they've been in this business for a very long time. If you get your frogs vaguely from costa rica, how do we know they aren't wild caught? Do you have the money to test all of the animals before adding them to your colony tank?

I think it would be better to get something like a 55-100 gallon tank and start with a handful of darts from UE. That's probably your best bet at selling any of your offspring.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Right now I don't have any darts. I have red eye tree frogs, a 250g reef tank and freshwater tanks but I've been out of darts for about 6 years.
I am not currently selling any frogs only show betta fish,show guppys and show discus to a couple pet shops across Quebec province. I've made a few calls and some are willing to take in a few frogs. They usually don't have frogs because they make little profit over one specimen, they usually buy them almost full price from local breeders and can't afford to order big from importers as they would have less space available for other animals.

For marketing, I'd have to put some banners in forums, do some PR and call pet shops,reptile shows, promotions, maybe free shipping AND VERY LOW PRICES..I've studied in advertising, so that really isn't a problem.
I'd essentially be selling really cheap captive bred reptile and amphibians to mostly pet shop orders from my stocklist. A supplier basically.


I was not planning on pulling the eggs as I would have a ton already anyways.
And I've never raised hundreds at a time but feeding hundreds of baby fish is imo alot harder than tadpoles especially discus and the bloody thousands of water changes. 


I am not asking about setups or how to breed or population densities or my business model, I have my own experience with that.

I am asking for opinions.
Do you see a colony setting viable or is it better to stick with trios?

Its been a couple of years I haven't had any dart frogs , you guys might do things differently now.

Like the substrate for instance, what should i use instead of gravel, spagnum and leaf litter... I've always used that..

Like I said I don't plan on selling frogs out of my house.
I have a 3000 sq feet basement that is paid for, light and heated included and a 50 000$ budget.
For all I care instead of reptiles and amphibians I could do aquaculture and raise coral or even just tilapia.
I just like reptiles and amphibians better and don't see any real ruff competition compared to the marine industry.
I am doing this to make money. I have to run this as a business.
I don't see why thinking ahead is a problem. I see it as a goal to reach.
I plan to distribute to pet shops in Quebec and Ontario in 2 years. which mounts to about 60% of canadian pet shops. be it coral or dart frogs.

Then a 5 year objective. If I have contacts in Nicaragua, enough money to buy land and invest in a farm. why not?
Thinking ahead is something often forgotten about in small businesses.

I will not breed just darts in my warehouse. I will breed all kinds of reptiles and amphibians, from rare and pricey like emerald tree boas to fairly available and cheap like crested geckos.

Just instead of having a dedicated tank in the warehouse , I wanted a nice display colony tank at home for dart frogs that might aswell serve as a huge breeding tank.
Business aside, nothing different than any other tank...

and you kinda got me curious, why did he change to only obligates??


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Well, you've got everything figured out. You're going to be a rich, rich man.

It's not my job to do your research.... I have just seen it too many times.

Have fun.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Guys I really love dart frogs, they will be treated as good as any of your pets.
I really don't get where the problem is.
I really like UE, I find it a noble cause. Why should he be alone doing this.
I surely can breed and raise captive breds. perhaps we can even work together in the future.
You guys seem really skeptical. 
How do you think he started?

And besides I don't plan to undercut anyone, almost no one offers dart frogs in Quebec, I see it as an opportunity.

All I asked about was if I could do a colony setup for thumbnails... and how you guys would proceed for such a setup. the rest is my problem.
Please can we stay on subject.

Thank you

Flame off....


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm not really trying to argue against you. Hey, if you have the time and money to do this, go for it I'd say. But as it's been mentioned, history has shown that this is a pretty risky business endeavor.



ChRoMiS said:


> Yeah I know UE and I don't see why I couldn't become a major competitor with time and dedication.
> ...
> However I'd be able to supply the same product, at a lower price and at lower shipping expenses since I'd be available locally.
> ...
> I'll be there for the newbies with a "cheap and easy" frog.


While this is _essentially_ true, I don't think many hobbyists would see your frogs as "the same product", since UE is so well known for it's conservation efforts and such. Pet stores and regular people (your target market) would most probably see them as the same product however.

Also, I'm again questioning the demand for these "cheap and easy" frogs that you are targeting towards newbies. These tiny frogs will cost (at least) $80. If these newbies are looking for frogs, what makes you think that they wouldn't go for tinctorious or leucamelas? Frogs that are cheaper (usually around $30-$40), bigger (twice the size?), easier to maintain, and bolder (they don't hide as much as vents).



ChRoMiS said:


> I am asking for opinions.
> Do you see a colony setting viable or is it better to stick with trios?
> ...
> Like the substrate for instance, what should i use instead of gravel, spagnum and leaf litter... I've always used that..


I don't know of anyone that keeps a colony of frogs that size (but then again, I don't know a lot of people  ). I'd imagine that trios would be easier for bookkeeping purposes -- seeing how many frogs you have, if you've had any losses, how healthy the frogs are, how many offspring they have/how productive they are, etc....
BUT, I'd imagine that at the vary least, a large colony would make a pretty sick display.

I'd say that the hobby standard for substrate is ABG, with leaf litter on top. But this is mostly if you want to grow plants. Here is some info on it:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html
New England Herpetoculture LLC - Substrate - Vivarium


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

tincs go for about 100 to 150 around here.
I'm in canada, the prices, availability and market, is different than in the states. And Quebec is different than the rest of Canada being french and all.


Like I said conservation efforts are part of my 5 year plan but that is just a marketing issue.

I count myself lucky I can put money into this project even if it doesn't stay in the green for a couple years but eventually I want it to run on its own.

I don't plan on sitting on my ass all day and waiting for my frogs to sell...

My reptiles and amphibians would not be wild caught as I have done background checks on the farms, they are captive raised. I plan on taking captive raised animals and breed them here in canada making my offspring captive bred in canada.
Not selling any wild caught frogs or importing any more after that.
JUst for breeding purposes.

I'm not here thinking I can import 100 frogs and just sell them in a month, I know that will never happen,I want to rectify the prices with the states. 
We are paying overpriced reptiles compared to you guys.
And our dollard difference is not that much.. maybe 30 cents or so..

I can see it being hard to keep track of 50 frogs that jump around..
Maybe a 10 to 20 frog display should be wiser. If its tall enough I can probably fit in some bottom dwellers aswell ( not wanting to start another war here héhé..)

Btw thanks Hypo , you out of many have been truly helpfull.


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Raising a huge colony of one type of frog for breeding purposes seems like a disaster waiting to happen, especially since the chosen frog isn't in high demand with low supply.

Wouldn't you be better off raising multiple kinds of frogs in smaller tanks? I've always felt like big colony styled tanks were used primarily for enjoyment. Finding homes for all those froglets sounds like a nightmare to me. If I were you I would purchase some frogs from UE and start getting into breeding that way. You won't be able to compete against UE in any capacity except for price considering their reputation and history with the hobby. Hell I'd say they're the primary seller of frogs in the US as well as Canada at this point.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ChRoMiS said:


> I can see it being hard to keep track of 50 frogs that jump around..
> Maybe a 10 to 20 frog display should be wiser.


I don't keep a lot of frogs, but this might be the better approach, as others have stated. It would probably be easier to scale up if this is successful, than to go all out at once and potentially have the whole project collapse in on itself. Especially since you've stated that you haven't had much experience with these frogs in the last few years.

Also, as you've stated, you have a lot of other projects on hand, and I'd imagine getting started on a new, really big project would dampen all your other projects. If you start out small it's much more manageable, and give you the opportunity to decide on whether to move forward with it or not.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Where are you located in Quebec?


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes I will be breeding other frogs in the warehouse in smaller tanks.
The colony of vents is for my enjoyment at home, however I plan to sell the offspring too.

Relocating the tadpoles shouldn't be a problem as I will sell these frogs fairly cheap and to local pet shops I am already in business with.

I am sure "newbies" would buy them if they saw them more readily available. In fact I'm sure that more than half of the population of Quebec doesn't even know what a dart frog is.. they all have ugly leopard geckos that run for 80 bucks... leopard geckos, bearded dragons and crested geckos is all I see these days...
if only they knew what they could get lol. 
no-one has popularized dart frogs like the crested gecko or veiled chameleons. I it time for darts to rule..
They have remained in the hands of experts and collectioneurs. Which is a pretty small community.. Why not offer them to a larger audience.
I want darts or at least vents to be regularly seen in pet shops across canada.

As for the species, I like non obligates, they have a cool behavior, Vents I can get for fairly cheap so I chose them. In all fairness I'd have some Taropoto imitators in there but I don't get them the same price at all..
Pumilios was my third choice.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

I might do the plastic bins thing in the end. I was just curious as to what would be the complications if any of a colony type setup.

Hypo, the first 50 frogs would be my sample batch, i'd keep about 20, sell a couple to friends and the rest online and to pet shops.Just to see in how long a period I sold 30 frogs..
I'll keep the frogs as long as necessary and if I really need to get rid of that many tadpoles,I'll just give them away for free to fellow canadian dendroboard members.
Dart frogs are maybe 10% of what I intend to breed in the long run, I can manage some losses as crested geckos and other fast sales will cover them.

I'm in Montreal by the way


----------



## KDuraiswamy (Dec 2, 2012)

ChRoMiS said:


> Hypo, the first 50 frogs would be my sample batch, i'd keep about 20, sell a couple to friends and the rest online and to pet shops.Just to see in how long a period I sold 30 frogs..


Also, keep in mind that it will probably take longer and longer to sell the same amount of frogs as time goes on. As more of your vents go out to, there will be fewer people looking to buy vents. Plus the people you sell vents to will start breeding them, making it harder to sell your own. I'm not saying your plan isn't possible; I'm just saying this is something that could come up in the future that you might want to look out for.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

ChRoMiS said:


> I'm in Montreal by the way


Good location! 4 million people at you doorstep! Since that frog already exists here, why bring in more wild caught? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but I wouldn't buy them for that reason, alone. Farm raised or not, it's just not needed. Leave them be and start with something else.


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Thumbnails are sometimes shy. That is one of the reasons most recommend getting a bigger frog. Imagine the "newbie" thinking about dropping $80 on a frog, standing at the tank at the pet store looking in trying to find it, and the employee says, "yeah we never see them, but they're in there." 

I never ever see my Vanzos. But I still appreciate them, because I know what they're doing for me. But a beginner may quickly lose interest if they never see the frogs.


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

would you want to send me your pro rata for the first 6 - 12 months? I can look it over for you.

That's an honest offer.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

I've never seen any available around here. last darts I saw was a couple of blue tincs in a nature pet center that went for 150 each.

I was just guessing that to the general public's untrained eye there isn't that big of a difference between a vent a imitator and a lamasi. So being sought after isn't really necessary.

What species did you have in mind. still in the non obligates.
maybe imitators or amazons..

Like I said I've been out of dart frogs for 6 years. I don't really know what is popular right now.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Going big from the get go is the largest reason I see small businesses fail. There is something that you learn from scrapping and fighting as a small player first that helps you make better decisions. You should start with a couple dart frogs and work your way up, not the other way around. What if you buy 200 frogs and no one actually buys them? What if you just miscalculate and are unable to feed them and they all die? What if your temps in your house sky rocket because your AC fails and they all die? What if you miscalculate enclosure size and aggression and stress cause a death and disease outbreaks? I am sure you probably have all those things covered but many things can go wrong. 

The second largest reason I see businesses fail is because someone gets into it thinking it will be easy money. It stops being fun later.

You have 2 different business models. 1 is to be an exposer, basically you want to be like steve jobs in apple you wont actually make anything new you just think people don't know about it and if I expose it to the masses it will take off. The other is you want to be a breeder. The thing is, for a single person its hard to have the time to accomplish both of those at the same time. I suggest you focus on 1 at a time. And of course start small, not big. If you want to expose Quebec to dart frogs than start by offering a pet store some sort of deal, where you operate like a company rep and bring in a completely automated setup and so on. Remember the trick to exposure is you have to make it easy, so the customers need to purchase complete setups right there. You will learn and make a ton of mistakes in that first store, hone your skills and system then move to the next store.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You have no idea who Mark Pepper of Understory Enterprises really is, and what he has done for the hobby. You talk like you are just going to step right in beside him and become his major competitor, and quite frankly, it's rude and disrespectful of one of the most respected names in the hobby. Mark is NOT just another frog breeder, and you might do well to research him before you keep dropping comments like those.

I would also like to point out that you seem to think you can become his major competitor, while you are planning on offering a fairly freshly morphed froglet, un-sexed of course, as you have no experience sexing darts, and they are too young to sex anyway. You have already revealed plans to do this puppy mill fashion, pumping out as many of the same species as you can. Mark Pepper, on the other hand, will be offering fully sexually mature frogs to compare to your tiny frogs. Mark Pepper's frogs come with a fairly reliable sex ID, backed by soo many years of experience.
Mark Pepper's frogs come from a dedicated facility, where they are NOT exposed to diseases from animals from all over the world, that you are planning on keeping in close proximity. On the same subject, Mark is well versed in dart frog diseases and he offers a CLEAN frog. Please research *Novel Pathogens*.
Mark Pepper has started every one of his breeding groups with sustainably harvested frogs, with FULL PERMISSION AND COOPERATION of every country involved. It sounds to me like you are planning on starting your business by ADDING TO THE PROBLEM. Much of the hobby does not people importing huge quantities of diseased frogs anymore, whether they are wild caught or "farmed" in the wild (where other wild frogs come and go, and spread whatever diseases they are carrying).

I'd like to address your question, "How do you think he started?" What exactly do you mean by that? Are making totally ungrounded assumptions? You have dropped a strong inference here. It looks to me like you are saying that Mark Pepper started his career by completely skipping the hobby part, and simply trying to mass produce frogs. Your implication is that Mark started the same way you trying to start, with no foot in the hobby, no former interest in the hobby, and absolutely no experience with dart frogs, before he started his business. 
Can you please either be completely clear about what you are implying, or provide the proof to back it up? 
I don't think you intend it, but you have NO IDEA who Mark is and how disrespectful you are coming across.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

First of all, since when do ventrimaculata come from Costa Rica? And second of all if you're asking us all these questions you aren't ready to start importing dart frogs, let alone keep a massive colony.

Also mark doesn't sell to pet shops because they usually aren't the best with husbandry. He's usually at the shows up there though, and I'd imagine that's where a lot of Canadians get their frogs. Or they just call them. Either way, you certainly aren't going to compete with them with vents.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

My breeding facility will be in a warehouse hooked to a generator in case of power failure. Any of these hypothetical questions can happen to anyone being for breeding purposes or for enjoyment, its pretty much irrelevant.
What I see here, is I have the opportunity to have a lit and heated 3000 feet basement for free. I do not solely plan on breeding dart frogs in there. So if I make a mistake with dart frogs I can easily scrape it off on other animals that sell faster.
I don't think I can get stuck with thousands of frogs, if I lower my price, it will sell eventually.
heck I'll give them away if you buy a full setup or some promotion of sorts..
Wholesale prices will be available if I really can't get rid of them. vents for 20$, if you by 3 or more. I'm sure many people would like that.

I've secured good relations with reptile shops and pet stores locally and they have seen my stocklists and are willing to order once I start.
Darts are maybe 10% of my breeding stock.

I haven't mentioned I am not alone in this and have an assossiate who would handle the marketing and PR. I am mostly the animal husbandry guy.
I'll have a set of employees to help me run the breeding facility aswell.


----------



## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

ChRoMiS said:


> I've never seen any available around here. last darts I saw was a couple of blue tincs in a nature pet center that went for 150 each.


Oh, I'd also like to mention that although dart frogs are much more common here in the US, and you can get frogs for much cheaper from hobbyists, if you happen to stumble upon some in pet stores (which from my experience has been extremely uncommon, if at all) their prices are severely marked up -- twice or three times higher than purchasing from a hobbyist. This is surely to offset the initial purchase price, and for the low demand for frogs in general.

Looking at canadart I also found frogs that were much cheaper by hobbyists than you'd see at pet stores:
For sale | Canadart


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ChRoMiS said:


> They are captive bred aswell in Costa Rica, the minimum order is 50 heads.


Wait what? Anyone else find that statement very odd. Who is raising Vents in Costa Rica.....


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

I am not trying to be disrespectful to mark or to anyone.
It is not because I don't have any post that I don't have any experience in the hobby, I did keep a couple of dart a couple of years back and bred them succesfully. Maybe a little refresher is needed but I'm not starting from scratch.
I'm a hobbyist just like you. (Sold my tanks to go to uni a couple years ago)
And Mark that you seem to have so much high regard for started just the same, a hobbyist. I am sure he'd be humble about what he's done and say it all just started as a crazy idea and a passion for frogs but he stuck to it and it worked. why should it be any different for me.
I hope I can succeed as well as he did. And "sit" right besides him in maybe 10 to 20 years..
How can I build greater experience If I never start anything great, you guys sound like a bad boss at a job interview, slowly killing off dreams and visions of greatness..
I dont plan on starting this with shitty tanks and all, everything will be optimum for these frogs, for any species I'll breed in fact.

I was just asking a little input on what I already had tough out. Substrates changed since the 90's, no big deal, I'll adapt to the new standards.
If there are any other major husbandry changes I am not aware of, let me know.

The huge colony display was merely a dream of my empty living room being not so empty anymore. I won't entertain my mind anymore sorry..
(I'm canadian, we tend to appologize for nothing..)

Why do you all automatically assume my frogs will be in shitty conditions from a shitty provenance of some shitty costa rican "farm"... Its getting frustrating. I hate wild imports just as much as you do. I might add to the problem but I add to it once..for genetic purposes. I don'w want the same lines as Mark, I want to establish my own lines. 

I dont plan to do a dart frog farm and sell millions of them a month.. can I stop repeating myself. darts are 10% of what I intend to breed.

Health regulations and all tests necessary will be followed accordingly and health certificates will be given upon a sale.

I hadn't tough about the air being foul and contaminating the frogs, that is a true problem I'll have to remedy.



And if you want sexable frogs,god forbid, I'll keep them longer and wait and offer you sexed frogs, i'll even wait for them to breed just to make sure if you want.

Btw I'm actually getting them from Peru, i just said i visited a farm in costa rica once..got mixed up along the lines..

The pet shops I know and trust wouldn't mistreat the frogs and neither would I.

Anyways..


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Dude, u just joined DB, have 10 posts and are talking about starting a warehouse with a 50-frog vent colony that already has low demand. Those frog hide most of the time and comparatively aren't even very colorful. 

You'd have to treat them all for parasites in small individual groups. 

Understory is well respected for their conservation, education, and business models. 

Imports are not favorably looked upon buy those that know and truly respect the devotion and effort others like Frye, Stewart, Neighbors etc. have put into the hobby for decades. 

Not to rain on you parade, but why don't you start small and take it from breeding the frogs up to 50 and do it right.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Would you guys give this guy a break? Clearly he has his business plan in place, and a 3000 sq ft basement and soon a 6000sq ft warehouse as well as an in-situ farm, as well as importing frogs, and he hasn't even bred a single frog yet. Oh I almost forgot to mention the presence of geckos and other herps all in the same facility.
He has plenty of experience to pull this off, that's why he came here asking for advice on paper towel substrate for his 6'x4'x6' display tank (BTW how were you going to clean up the bottom of your bare bottom/paper towel display tank that's 4 feet tall? You must have really long arms.)
After accomplishing all that he'll revolutionize the dart frog hobby in Canada by breeding thousands of shy vents and selling them all to pet stores for a premium price and retire at 25 a very rich man. He'll probably make vents as popular as sugar gliders. 
He's sure to be a peer of Mark Pepper, I mean after all, what could go wrong?


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes I just joined a forum, on the internet and have 5 posts, however I am fully litterate of the subject and have years of experience with all sorts of animals including dart frogs.
I do not mean to discredit your board but it is not the only source of knowledge available..

All I wanted to know is if I could keep vents in colony style settings and how would someone else handle this kind of situation.

I'd go for "better" frogs but they are not as cheap as vents are. For a colony style setting I'd have to buy 10 to 20 frogs at least, vents low price is an advantage.

+ No one would be buying imported stock. I'd import strictly for breeding purposes.

My Warehouse is not some pig farm, it will be equiped with the best material there is.
I am willing to put in as much money as needed for this project to work as I am financially secure and can spare a couple thousands a month for a while.
I don't see why it is doomed to fail. Time and Dedication is my motto.
This is something I am doing out of passion for reptiles and amphibians but yes, in the long run I wish that this project be financially secure.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

paper towels where for the 20g plastic bins... 
You guys are like fox news...

Thanks for the sarcasm btw, its always appreciated coming from noone..
Never heard of sliding doors dude..or custom made...

I hadn't though about the air echange with other herps, 
I could possibly raise a drywall and isolate the frogs from the rest of the herps.
Maybe even have a separate ventilation system for that room.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you want to be a breeder, fine be a breeder. THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU MARK PEPPER. What have you done for conservation? What have you done to research species? How many years have you spent in the rainforests? How many new species have you presented, completely legally, to the hobby?

If you want to compare yourself to someone who is simply a hobbyist and breeder, like myself, you go right ahead. 
You really should have taken a moment to research Mark Pepper before continuing to dig yourself in deeper.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

You come here looking for advice, yet you ignore and even insult those who give you advice when it isn't what you want to hear?

Genius!

People have raised some very valid concerns based on what you've posted. You would be wise to actually read what people have posted. People are reading what you've said and pointed out some serious issues and flaws in your intentions.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

What would you do with a 3000 sq feet basement then.. 
Why is it so delusional to think bigger than a frog room?
I own many buildings with businesses aswell as a few daycares here in Montreal. I have all these empty basements available. I wanted something I could be passionate about and watch grow over the years.
Daycares pretty much run themselves once you got them up and running.
I wanted something I could dive in and enjoy doing.

I would of said I wanted to start a freshwater farm with rare discus or wild caught marine fish and coral, no-one on the boards over there would of advised against it. There seems to be such an animosity in the reptile hobby, I don't get it..

I have been nothing but truthful with you guys, I don't really see how I can put it any other way. You asked questions, I answered.
I feel like some of you read the big lines and just flamed on. 
TLDR isn't really good when your there to give advice..
Some of you have been objective and some of you have clearly taken a side.
In all fairness I understand this might sound like a crazy idea, I do believe it is acheivable. not in a year, not in 3 but in many more. I am aware of that.
If you all think I am dumb enought to trow 50 000$ at only one species of frog than my friend, you are the dumb one.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

I did aknowledge every information relating to the dart frogs husbandry and well being. As that is my utmost concern.
My business model is at my discretion only. If I fail I fail. It will have little incident in your life therefore you should deem it irrelevant. where are talking frogs here.

And I did not insult anyone, only that sarcastic guy, his attitude is in no way helpful.

From what I've posted the substrate I had in mind wasn't good and the proximity to other herps was a no no aswell.

Now the rest is unimportant, some might think I will fail some might not.
If I fail with dart frogs, I'll just stop breeding dart frogs.


----------



## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)




----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Heck if I have too many babie vents, i'll qull them same as I do for guppys...


----------



## NM Crawler (Jan 23, 2012)

^
This guy is my idol! SMH


----------



## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

I too attended the Gnome School of Business!

Step 1: Collect large amount of low demand, wild-caught frogs.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit!


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

No one is saying you can't realize your dream. What we're saying is slow down. Realize that the deck is pretty much stacked against your long term success. Perhaps you've over estimated the number of darts you can sell or produce? Start slow. Start with keeping some frogs. Start breeding a species. If you have success with that try a few more. If things are still going well add a few more to your collection. Work up to a nice handful of species you're working with. I don't care how many other herps you've worked with, you may not realize how much work large scale breeding of frogs may be. 

The reason a lot of people are being negative is we've seen this countless times. Someone gets their very first frog and thinks they are gonna get rich breeding frogs. Do you know what usually happens to those people? They are usually out of the hobby entirely in about a year. They don't know what their in for. Take your time, do things the right way. But don't jump in with both feet and $50,000. In a years time you'll only be $50,000 poorer.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

The vents are for my display tank, I'd be selling the excess tads fairly cheap, yes.

I'M NOT LOOKING FOR PROFIT I'M LOOKING FOR SUSTAINABILITY AND EXPANSION.
I DON'T WANT TO LIVE FROM FROG BREEDING.
I'M LOOKING TO ESTABLISH NEW GENETIC LINES AND KEEPING THEM PURE.
I AM WILLING TO ENGAGE IN CONSERVATION EFFORTS.
I AM WILLING TO APPLY ALL THE NEW INDUSTRY STANDARDS
I WANT TO DO SOMETHING I LIKE.
AND I LOVE FROGS.


I'm not saying its easy and I'll do it in a year.
I'm gonna work my ass off to get there. 
I know it'll be hard but it can be done.

Not starting anything has led people nowhere.
.
Nothing holds me here right now,I have the opportunity to start something new, something I like.
I could go establish my farm directly in Costa Rica or Peru, and ship internationnaly captive bred frogs, for all I care.
I just saw a market for darts in Quebec...

How can you achieve such a status as Mark's if you don't gather experience


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

I am definitely gonna start slow with darts.
I have no idea how they'll work out in a market that they are virtually inexistant. (Pet shops and Quebec province more generally).

What I am saying is I can spare a few tanks or even a full room to try breed non obligates, be it vents or imitators..or anything else frankly.
I just like how non obligates breed...
If they don't sell like I though they would I stop breeding them and concentrate on another species. and keep then in my display.

I wanted to introduce a easily available dart frog that runs for dirt cheap.
It wouldn't have to be an investment when you want to keep dart frogs.
So people might put a little more money in the tanks they buy instead.


It would be a test run to see how they sell, how much and in how much time etc..

I'm not putting 50 000$ in dart frogs alone. That covers all equipment necessary for breeding all the differents species I intend to breed.
A tank is a tank, so is a mister and lighting... The setup inside can be stripped down and cleaned at any given time to accomodate any given species. Mind it fits in it 

I can see you guys being frustrated about some newb that wants to breed frogs and thinks he will make big bucks out of his garage and then realises its too much work and quits.
Trust me, I'm not that guy.

I want to have a reliable source of captive bred reptiles to offer all across canada. Being a breeder mostly. Some breeders do import wild caughts to start off from, I've seen it with chameleons alot.

Now if you guys tell me that vents really really wont sell, I won't get vents. 
( byebye colony setup of my dreams)
I am sure many imitators and pumilios would fetch a high price but it beats the principle of introducing dart frogs to the general public as they won't be able to afford them.

Like I said this is still in the making and nothing as been done officially yet.
Your inputs are appreciated as I mean to follow what the industry asks.


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

$80 is not dirt cheap.

Why not do E. Tricolor, which really can be sold dirt cheap. And will breed like rabbits, and are visible in the viv.

And you have all these basements with nothing to do in them. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

ChRoMiS said:


> I am definitely gonna start slow with darts.
> I have no idea how they'll work out in a market that they are virtually inexistant. (Pet shops and Quebec province more generally).
> 
> What I am saying is I can spare a few tanks or even a full room to try breed non obligates, be it vents or imitators..or anything else frankly.
> ...


Just taking this paragraph, you say you're going to start slow. buying 100 frogs is not slow. You have no idea how they will work out, so why are you buying 100? If price is no problem, find a couple of people that will sell you 10 each, as it doesn't matter what they cost.

I think your major problem and the reason you're getting all the static, is because there's no need for you to buy 100 frogs to see if your project is viable. What if it turns out you hate vents, and you want to do E. Tricolors? Are you going to buy 100 of them? 

If it really is a long term project, then what's the hurry? Buy proven breeding pairs of 15 different species and see what one you really want to work with.

I was going to give more business advice, but at this point I think it's futile...


----------



## EthanA (Feb 10, 2013)

ChRoMiS said:


> The vents are for my display tank, I'd be selling the excess tads fairly cheap, yes.
> 
> I'M NOT LOOKING FOR PROFIT I'M LOOKING FOR SUSTAINABILITY AND EXPANSION.
> I DON'T WANT TO LIVE FROM FROG BREEDING.
> ...





ChRoMiS said:


> Heck if I have too many babie vents, i'll qull them same as I do for guppys...


So if you're interested in conservation, and you love frogs, why would you cull the baby vents, and not ship them down to South America and release them through some conservation organization, 
and your not looking for profit, but you saw a market for darts in Quebec....?
If you want to keep the lines pure, why wouldn't you go through a reputable vendor getting pure line frogs such as understory (which continually brings new specimens up), instead of your 'Costa Rican frog line'. Anybody in Canada that is serious about dart frogs, that knows a thing or two will not buy them. If you think that you'd sell to pet stores, I don't think that most of them have experienced enough staff to keep them alive.

I think its a great dream, but your going about it wrong.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

You are right about everything...
The minimum order is 50 frogs. I'll keep around 20 in a display of sorts and I think I can manage to relocate the rest in a matter of 3 to 4 months.

But you are right I should be getting less.
I just wanted a nice colony display tank.
80$ was hypothetical, I realise I'd be selling them 30 to 40$ maybe even less if they breed that much..
I was guessing some iquitos reds would fetch a little higher than the yellow french guianas..

I hadn't though about the tricolors..
how cheap do they go for in the states?
If they are bolder it could be a better "introducing dart frogs to the general public" species.

Oneshot, what would you do with these basements, I can't put any normal businesses in them because of the kids and the noise and regulations about a secondary exit needing to be accessible at all times., no restaurants either for sanitary reasons ( bad past experience with filthy restaurant owners)
And its a commercial building so no cool hipster loft basement either..

All I see is dividing the thing in half, having a corridor that leads straight to the exit (for the daycare). Along the corridor, I'd have locked doors that would lead to different rooms with rows and rows of tanks housing different kinds of herps.
Thermostats for room temperature.. etc
Even humidity if I can manage to keep a room mold proof.
All connected to a huge ventilation system that trashes the air outside and brings in new untainted air in each room.
and a big ass generator, in case.

I was initally planning on upgrading my discus/betta/guppy breeders into huge setups but I figured with that much space I could breed other animals as well. 
I always had fish and herps growing up, I figured I might aswell dive back into Reptiles and Frogs...

I am not trolling btw, please post any advice you have. 
It is greatly appreciated.


----------



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Look, this guy wants to do what he wants. Who doesn't? If he wants 500 frogs let him get 500 frogs, if he wants 10000000000000 of them then so be it leave him be. I've seen frog rooms on this board with at least 100 tanks in it. I tried to breed , I failed but I'm still trying I breed for profit. I put the profit towards new frogs. I personally think he's doing good trying to expand the hobby in a place where it hasn't been done before. I thinks that's great. If he fails he fails and he can start over. Nice man, the best of luck to you


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

When I said I'd cull them, I didn't mean it. They where just talking as if I'd have suddently a thousand tadpoles at the same time...
Vents are classed as least concern but shipping them to SA seems like a good idea. It certainly portrays a good image anyone could benefit from.

I do see a market in Quebec. A market to raise awareness about these species of frogs that almost nobody knows.

I assure you I know small locally owned reptile stores that would gladly take in (and have enought knowledge) for 2 or 3 in a dedicated tank provided they can buy them fairly cheap. They say they don't sell because people don't want to pay 100$ for such a small frog.

What if we lowered the price so much that it wouldn't be worth it to import wild caughts let alone breed frogs all together. Everyone could buy a tinc or a leuc or any other frog for about 15 $ and breed them JUST FOR FUN.
That instead of selling your frogs the same price you bought them, maybe you divided that price into 5 generations instead...

We'd probably drive "costa rican farms" out of business as they are currently "breeding" for profit. We'd be cutting a huge chunk of the profit marging they make by selling cheap captive bred stock.
We'd actually be saving the frogs as the farms while convert to something more profitable to exploit...
This is only hypothetical of course..


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

ChRoMiS said:


> I own many buildings with businesses as well as a few daycares here in Montreal. I have all these empty basements available. I wanted something I could be passionate about and watch grow over the years.
> Daycares pretty much run themselves once you got them up and running.


Seriously?


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes I pay a woman to manage the place... she does it really well and love's children. I don't see any problem with that.
Please don't get me started on differences between any other daycare in the world and daycares in Quebec cause we'd have a even longer talk  .
Put it short we simply do thing differently here. Partly because we are french and fairly socialist.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

If you're willing to hire a lady to run your day cares, would you be willing to hire a professional guy to run your breeding operation? I know of this guy, well who hasn't, I mean, he is a legendary breeder, that could really help you out. If you're interested, let me know and I'll help you make the connection.


----------



## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> If you're willing to hire a lady to run your day cares, would you be willing to hire a professional guy to run your breeding operation? I know of this guy, well who hasn't, I mean, he is a legendary breeder, that could really help you out. If you're interested, let me know and I'll help you make the connection.


If that's going where I think its going, now that's FUNNY!


----------



## otterblue (Jun 18, 2008)

I think the posters have raised valid concerns and asked good questions. I also think that Chromis has done a nice job of being civil while having to defend/explain himself.


The local pet store next to me has a leuc and azureus for sale. They have sold one azureus in about a year. Not a booming market unless your clientele is dart frog enthusiasts.


Keep in mind that someone buying a dart frog also has to buy a tank, lighting, substrate, etc. (not to mention cultivating fruit flies). It's not a cheap investment and one most casual pet shoppers are willing to make. (The other scenario is someone buys a frog, tosses it in a tank with aquarium gravel and it dies in two weeks.)


Why not buy one or two pairs (or better yet proven breeders) of leucs, azureus and terribilis? Then you can sell the offspring and use the profit to buy more breeding pairs. Your business would be relatively self-sustaining, you can gauge the viability of the market and your supply won't likely be over the demand.


----------



## EthanA (Feb 10, 2013)

My friend has butterfly mounts, (where they stick the bug on a pin, and it goes on your wall) I was like how cruel is this?! 
There's two sides to everything, he said, these come from the rainforests in SA, and some of the locals livelihoods depend on this. What use is the rainforest if they cant make money from it. 
Im just wondering if it's the same about the frogs?

I agree with you, in the sense that the general public should be informed of these amazing creatures, but they are not for everybody. They require specific care everyday, (long term), and if they are $15 each, people will buy them. Maybe people who have had very little experience with herps, or any animal..
And I strongly believe most of them would die due to poor conditions, lack of food and supplements, ect.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes, I'd be willing to hire a guy with more experience than me that can show me the tricks of the trade.
But if your talking about Mark, I think he already has a job 

Like I said darts will be 10% of my operations. that means maybe 3 or 4 species and thats it. I believe I am able to manage that on my own.
It isn't any different than having a large frog room.



These frogs will remain endangered as long as it is profitable to collect them.
Keeping them away from the general public doesn't do them good.
A better exposure would lead to more conservation efforts, etc etc etc..
And if they can't sell any frogs anymore, they'll just change to something else worth cultivating/harvesting/farming...

When I came into the world of dart frogs, I really didn't know anything.
I had bought some blue tincs in a pet shop and a small exoterra.
Talk about impulse buying.
The guy gave me the shittiest advice.
But the frogs had me hooked. I read and read and constantly polished their enclosure and they finally bred on me.

All I am saying, is you gotta give people a chance.

I find it wrong to assume that all our fellow humans that are not in the hobby would let their frogs die in a week.

Some will, some won't. I'm sure some do right now on this very board even if they are aware of the special needs of our frogs..


----------



## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

There was once this movie called Finding Nemo. It was a kids movie that warns about the destructive tendencies of the saltwater aquarium industry. In it a clownfish is captured and placed in an aquarium where the other fish have major issues. The moral of the movie was quite clearly that buying saltwater fish for your aquarium is destroying our reef systems and an immoral activity.

And what happened after the movie was released? All of the Mom's and Dad's went out to buy their kids a Nemo and Dory to put in their goldfish bowls and they quite nearly wiped out decades of effort in captive breeding clownfish.



The bottom line is that the only way to be truly successful at breeding frogs is to have a diverse collection and to sell to enthusiasts, and unfortunately you'll be pitted against a literal juggernaut of the industry. Not to mention this board houses essentially all of the dart frog enthusiasts in your area and this thread is already alienating yourself from them. Buying a shy frog with almost no demand in bulk and expecting to make bank off of selling the froglets to pet stores is naive to the extreme. It just isn't going to work. We're just trying to save you some frustration here. Keep the frogs as a hobbyist and sell the froglets as they come. If you try to make this into a huge operation from the get-go it won't end well.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

I get what your saying with nemos, however it was "advertised for kids" of course they are not gonna take it seriously and act as adults about it, they are kids. 
Its not the best way to raise awareness by using a kids cartoon with colorfull fish. 
and I am sure awareness was not their primary concern either when making this movie...

I don't know why everyone is alienating me as you say. 
Frankly I can choose the frog I want to breed. even if its low demand.
I like vents, I'd do a colony setup for them. just for the sake of the colony setup.
(AS I AM NOT BREEDING DART FROGS FOR PROFIT)

And if I choose to sell a couple to pet shops I know would care well for them as they are run by hobbyists just like us.
What is the problem with that?

There are no big Pet Shop like petco or whatever around here. Its moslty small locally owned pet shops that are run by someone just as passionate about herps than you and I.

Besides, I never said I wanted to make 10 000$ a month selling frogs.

I wont have tads from the start and you guys all know it takes time for a frog to morph so what is the problem. If I schedule everything corretly I shouldn't have any problems.
I don't plan on raising a hundred tads a time. maybe 10 to 20 at a time.
As I said, I'll give them away to hobbyists if they don't sell.

All I said is I wanted a beginners frog that runs for fairly cheap to introduce to the hobby to the region I am in. There aren't that many froggers around here. The french canadian dart frog community is virtually inexistant.
Most french canadians don't even speak english so seeing them on boards like these is fairly rare..

Once people are aware that dart frogs exist, all the other more expensive, more delicate species can be introduced...

I am sure I'd be able to sell 20 frogs to 4 million something people.
At least 20 people will be interested by my 20$ frogs.

Why am I considered evil, is beyond me.


----------



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

"It just isn't going to work"
And if your wrong and it works, then who is the fool? Just leave him be. Why do we choose tics, auratus, or leucs to keep? Because we want to
Let him do the same, just leave him be. He created this thread to get some advice or tips on how to run his project and now he's being beat upon on how he's stupid to try this and why it's wrong. We should be Honored that this guy is coming to us for help, he could be doing this without asking and messing a lot of things up. Good luck ChRoMiS.
Mike


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

I wonder if the OP is aware of Canadart
You may get a totally different perspective and advise from fellow Canadians.
I think most people here believe they are trying to save you and the frogs some grief. Nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in your plan and trying to direct you to a plan that might be more doable.


----------



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Reef_Haven said:


> I wonder if the OP is aware of Canadart
> You may get a totally different perspective and advise from fellow Canadians.
> I think most people here believe they are trying to save you and the frogs some grief. Nothing wrong with pointing out the flaws in your plan and trying to direct you to a plan that might be more doable.


No there is no problem in pointing out flaws but read some of these posts, the were pointing out flaws,isn't that great.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

If you want to "introduce darts to the public" thumbnails are NOT the type of frog to do it with. Get yourself some tinctorius, leucomelas, auratus and some Phyllobates.
BIG, easy frogs that will have more of the "ooooh.....aaaaaahhh" effect on people. These frogs are what sell at shows, NOT THUMBNAILS. These are the frogs that pet stores will buy from you at very reduced (laughable) wholesale prices....NOT THUMBNAILS. 

The froglets morph out plenty big enough to eat fruit flies right out of the gate, no need for springtails. 

You can keep colonies of leucs, auratus, and Phyllobates sp. for a great display. 


Feet first first time is the rule of cliff diving, and I think it applies here as well..... I think the OP is going to get a bit of a shock when he realizes what the reality of breeding frogs actually is. 

I do NOT think theres a need for more bloodlines of amazonicus in the hobby atm, plenty of good blood to choose from....CAPTIVE BRED good blood


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I see a lot of "wind sock" in this thread. Blowing one way, then the other.
A lot of "I'm gonna have a warehouse" then it's "I'm not gonna breed frogs for a profit"
"I've got $50,000 to sink into this" then "I'll give frogs away"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I see a lot of "wind sock" in this thread. Blowing one way, then the other.
> A lot of "I'm gonna have a warehouse" then it's "I'm not gonna breed frogs for a profit"
> "I've got $50,000 to sink into this" then "I'll give frogs away"


Exactly. This guy waffles more than Mitt and Barry did through the entire election campaign.


----------



## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

Guys seriously. It's fine to point out the flaws in someone's plan, but it's not fine to continue ragging on someone,
Post after post. Maybe he is going about it the wrong way, maybe he's not. 

I have personally talked to local hobbyists who I had to convince to come back to Dendroboard because they had their head bitten off when they asked a noob question and didn't know to use the search function.

People have to start somewhere. I firmly believe that being an active participant on Dendroboard is one of the best things beginners can do. Can we not scare off people trying to get into darts? Sure, give advice. But there's no need to call someone a troll just because this is the internet. 

If a local hobbyist came up to you and told you he/she had this same idea, how would you treat that person?


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ChRoMiS said:


> We'd probably drive "costa rican farms" out of business as they are currently "breeding" for profit. We'd be cutting a huge chunk of the profit marging they make by selling cheap captive bred stock.
> We'd actually be saving the frogs as the farms while convert to something more profitable to exploit...
> This is only hypothetical of course..


Seriously there aren't any ventrimaculata in Costa Rica. Or any Ranitomeya for that matter.


----------



## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

You don't have to agree with this guy's plan and it's totally fine to say so. 
I highly respect many of the posters in this thread for their help on the boards etc... And it's kind of depressing seeing some of the attitudes towards the OP.


----------



## ChRoMiS (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes I am planning on opening a warehouse to breed herps. not just vents. Herps. Many herps. I am not sinking 50 000$ in one species of frog.
I'll probably breed 3 or 4 species of darts out of about a 100 species of herps.
I breed most popular species for profit that I then sell to pet shops.
And some rare species for my own pleasure ( because I really like the species) like uroplatus henkelli, pygmy chameleons and glass frogs.

Same goes for dart ,I do not breed darts for profit, I just wanted to test darts on the market. I'll be allowing 10% of my operations to darts, which means about 15 tanks.
And maybe a 90g display in my living room with about 10 to 15 frogs.
Nothing different than any dart frog room.

If frogs do not sell, Yes, I'll be giving them away fairly cheap,
as I can erase the loss with other Herps I have.
50 frogs costs about 750, which is an acceptable loss for me, should the frog not sale. I don't think fruit fly cultures will bring me bankrupt either..

And yes my shipper is from Peru not Costa Rica..


----------



## SDRiding (Jul 31, 2012)

To be fair, it's like he followed a how to guide on how to rile up Dendroboard.


Import wild caught amphibians when there are captive bred lines available.
Insult Mark Pepper's and other conservationists' efforts as merely a marketing ploy.
Treating amphibians as disposable pets.
Sense of entitlement to other people's knowledge and expertise.
Ignoring everything that anyone says to help guide him in a more appropriate direction because it wasn't what he wanted to hear.
Worst of all... CAPS.
And did I even see something about a mixed tank in this jumble of madness??



Trickishleaf said:


> You don't have to agree with this guy's plan and it's totally fine to say so.
> I highly respect many of the posters in this thread for their help on the boards etc... And it's kind of depressing seeing some of the attitudes towards the OP.


----------



## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

I'm not going to chime in about your business venture. But I vote that you make a really big set up instead of a bunch of cheap plastic tubs. There's a greenhouse here in Minnesota at the Como Zoo that's free to go see and I've saw Auratus, milk frogs, and other small lizards running around it. It's a really cool set up. You could get in contact with them and ask some questions about the specs of how they keep it all running, especially in the winter. Do a google search on "Como Zoo tropical room" or "Como Zoo conservatory". They have a few different types of rooms like a tropical room, fern room, flower gardens, etc. It's free to visit too if you wanted to make a trip you could check it out to get more ideas too. I'd love to see you turn an entire room into a giant viv that you could walk through and find a good spot to sit and relax. Go for that idea and enjoy it.


----------



## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Aquaculture corals. You'll make MUCH more money and it will take up much less space. You can start of with a few frag tanks until you raise enough revenue and then go from there. People will pay insane prices for limited edition acros and palythoas. IMHO the rapid rise and fall in prices and demand in this hobby would put you out of business very quickly. There's much more security in a mainstream hobby like reefing where thousands of people are looking for corals every day. There's plenty of absolutely loaded businesses that aquaculture corals that started out with just one frag tank. BRS even sells a kit for aquaculture here: Frag Tank Kit with Sump for Stony Corals - Bulk Reef Supply
IMO it's much easier upkeep compared to feeding 1000's of tadpoles, making tens and more of fly cultures, etc. You can automate the entire system very cheaply, and the upkeep is pretty simple. You will have to clean out the protein skimmer, change filter media, and you can even automate water changes very easily.... honestly on a large scale reefing is very easy. You'd probably spend your entire day trying to keep up with 300 frogs (offspring included). I'd say your startup cost for two of those frag tanks would be about $3,000 not including livestock. With Livestock you're in about $5,000, and you'll be fragging the corals and making your money in no time.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

curlykid said:


> Aquaculture corals. You'll make MUCH more money and it will take up much less space. You can start of with a few frag tanks until you raise enough revenue and then go from there. People will pay insane prices for limited edition acros and palythoas. IMHO the rapid rise and fall in prices and demand in this hobby would put you out of business very quickly. There's much more security in a mainstream hobby like reefing where thousands of people are looking for corals every day. There's plenty of absolutely loaded businesses that aquaculture corals that started out with just one frag tank. BRS even sells a kit for aquaculture here: Frag Tank Kit with Sump for Stony Corals - Bulk Reef Supply
> IMO it's much easier upkeep compared to feeding 1000's of tadpoles, making tens and more of fly cultures, etc. You can automate the entire system very cheaply, and the upkeep is pretty simple. You will have to clean out the protein skimmer, change filter media, and you can even automate water changes very easily.... honestly on a large scale reefing is very easy. You'd probably spend your entire day trying to keep up with 300 frogs (offspring included). I'd say your startup cost for two of those frag tanks would be about $3,000 not including livestock. With Livestock you're in about $5,000, and you'll be fragging the corals and making your money in no time.


The best choice I have read yet in this thread.... Hell, I made a load of cash at one point with my frag system and that was just a small tank....plus you can always trade other reefers frags for frags of stock you don't have...I would sell highend zoanthids or palythoa anywhere for $15-$90 a polyp. There was always a demand for healthy frags.

sent from my Galaxy S lll


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

EthanA said:


> So if you're interested in conservation, and you love frogs, why would you cull the baby vents, and not ship them down to South America and release them through some conservation organization,


The problem with this is that none of the frogs would be suitable for release into the wild...... This is a topic that has been covered repeatedly... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-4.html#post586940

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Azurel said:


> The best choice I have read yet in this thread.... Hell, I made a load of cash at one point with my frag system and that was just a small tank....plus you can always trade other reefers frags for frags of stock you don't have...I would sell highend zoanthids or palythoa anywhere for $15-$90 a polyp. There was always a demand for healthy frags.
> 
> sent from my Galaxy S lll


Definitely. Also, most hobby groups ie: WAMAS, have huge frag swaps where you can get corals for next to nothing. not only that but you can advertise on the club's website, and when business starts booming, you can advertise on national websites. People go insane over LE corals. Even just hobbyist classifieds with a desirable or rare coral get smothered with buyers.


----------



## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Advice was given by many. When you try to talk your way around advice to find the answer(s) you want is not taking advice, it's nothing more than justification. Add to that the OP keeps changing direction on the how, why and reason(s). I can see where folks are getting frustrated. Hell, why keep asking for directions if you just keep throwing the map out at every new intersection you come to...

To the OP, 
Try it. Do everything you were planning on doing. (Watch out UE, there's a new player on the field)

If you don't want to learn from dedicated hobbyist with many years under their belts then you will learn from failure...

Casper


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A point of clarification.... It doesn't matter if he has $50K or not to import "new" wild blood lines out of Peru or not... Currently Peru's regulations prohibit the export of any wild caught dart frogs... Only captive bred dendrobatids can be exported... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## otterblue (Jun 18, 2008)

On the plus side, this thread has 5 stars...


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

The thread has been cleaned and re-opened. Keep it that way or it will be closed for good and infractions given. 

Add something relevant to the discussion or don't say anything. 

To the OP, please let us know if you want the discussion to remain closed.


----------



## Leaf28 (Apr 22, 2013)

@ Chromis, do yourself a favor and quit posting your business plans on an on-line forum.
If you want to breed dart frogs for profit, that's YOUR business. As long as you are a responsible breeder, by following the obvious steps, you're good to go. Also, I don't see people flaming any "Sponsor" on this forum about breeding darts for a profit. So why are people giving you a hard time? Because you posted your business plan on the internet. 
If you think about it, every reputable vendor breeding dart frogs is doing it to make a profit.

There is nothing wrong with making some money while doing something you enjoy. My advice is to do as much research as possible and listen to the good advice on this forum, it sure helped me..


----------



## V.Gage (Aug 11, 2013)

Personally, I thin this whole idea is pretty much Grandiose


----------

