# Help!!!!



## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Please anyone who looks at this respond to it! I messed up bad, I just realized that I didn't do anything to get the old dirt cleaned off of my terrarium plants! I'm concerned and losing my mind because I got them from lowes! What do I do! I don't have a grow out tank for plants and I don't have any spares! I don't want to stress out my frogs, but do I take the out!? Does anyone have plans for sale or something!? Please HELP!!!!!!!
Mike


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Should I put them in another tank that I have set up?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Problem is the tank is used and virtually impossible to break it down. Allstate that I have done to it is wipe it down. Please seriously respond to this post! I don't want to hurt my frogs!


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Relax.... Not a big deal. Take a deep breath.

You mean you bought them from lowes and put them straight into the tank?

Can you explain what you think will happen?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

oneshot said:


> Relax.... Not a big deal. Take a deep breath.
> 
> You mean you bought them from lowes and put them straight into the tank?
> 
> Can you explain what you think will happen?


Put them straight in tank, but kept them in pot.
Death of frogs


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

So what you are saying is when you constructed the viv, you planted the plants with the soil attached? Yes, that can be very bad for several reasons. The first reason is fertilizer. Alof of greenhouse grown plants have fertilizer pellets on top of the soil or mixed in. These are time released fertilizer, but the moist enviroment of a viv are likly to break down faster. Our frogs skin is very permeable, and fertilizer is definetly toxic. The second reason is because of the risk of introduction of pathogens, parasite, and bugs. I recently introduced cockroaches into a viv of mine that I had to break down because I did not get 100% rid of the potting soil on the roots. I would recomned a trip to walmart, buy a large rubbermaid tote of the clear kind. Set up a very bare bones tub for your frogs for a day or so. Spagnum moss on the bottom is fine as long as its moist. Pull out all those plants and wash that old soil off. Also wash the plants good with a little dish detergent (liquid). Make sure you get all remnants of the potting soil out. depending on the tank, how its planted, etc, I might take out all substrate and nuke it to kill anything you introduced thats bad, like centipedes, snails or slugs.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Your kidding about completely breaking it down right...


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

if it's bothering you, put them in a temporary container with paper towels and some hiding spots and they can stay in there for a long, long time.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

oneshot said:


> why would that kill them? If you have some pebbles/gravel, cover the exposed dirt if it's bothering you that much.
> 
> But I do it that way sometimes, and maybe it's frowned upon, but they're not gonna die.
> 
> And if it's bothering you, put them in a temporary container with paper towels and some hiding spots and they can stay in there for a long, long time.


Ok. 1 fine. 1 nuke tank. There's only 2 plants like this but I don't have the time money or parents patients on my side.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

It's ok Mike. You can fix this. 

I agree with pdfCrazy. Take out the substrate and the plants. Put in new substrate. Wash the plants and wash off all of the soil. I soak plants in a 5-10% bleach solution to (hopefully) get rid of any critters that might be hiding in there. Make sure to rinse the plants very well after the soak. Final rinse in water that has been dechlorinated. Then re-plant them into the substrate. 

You can vacuum out substrate that is left over and hard to get. 

While you are doing this, just put your frogs in another container. They'll be fine in there for the time it takes to sort out the tank. Some damp sphagnum moss. A few leaves. Just make sure it has a good lid that they can't sneak out of.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Fertilizer is a sure way to kill your frogs, theres no way to sugar coat that.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I should probably also mention that its been like this since before December.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mike why is it impossible to break down? Maybe a picture would help us.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

frogface said:


> It's ok Mike. You can fix this.
> 
> I agree with pdfCrazy. Take out the substrate and the plants. Put in new substrate. Wash the plants and wash off all of the soil. I soak plants in a 5-10% bleach solution to (hopefully) get rid of any critters that might be hiding in there. Make sure to rinse the plants very well after the soak. Final rinse in water that has been dechlorinated. Then re-plant them into the substrate.
> 
> ...


Should I put them in the used semi clean tank, or just the tub? It's a 55


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Oh, no not the tank I'm having a heart attack over... I'm talking about the 55 pic in a min.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

This isnt a catastrophe, or it dostn have to be. And its possible fertilizer wasnt used on these plants. Most bugs you'd introduce accidentaly would prey on plants more so than the frogs. For peace of mind I would at the least pull just the potted plant out, pick off the soil and replant them with clean substrate. You could probably do this while leaving everythign else intact in the tank.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That depends on what the used tank was used for and just how semi-clean it is. If you have a clean tub (or one that you can clean) I'd just use that since it will be for a short time. If you can do it pretty fast, you can really just put the frogs into deli containers or food containers (umm better check with folks lol).

If this was just 2 plants, can you remove those plants and the dirt surrounding them? Then rinse off those plants really well and replant them?


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

frogface said:


> If this was just 2 plants, can you remove those plants and the dirt surrounding them? Then rinse off those plants really well and replant them?


my thoughts, you said it better though


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Heart attack tank on left 55 on right. I say it's impossible to break down because there I wood and the background and a bunch of other stuff glued to the tank.( I didn't do it, nor did the seller)


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Pics didn't work one sec. This is the heart attack tank


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh I see. It's that fern looking plant in the back behind the wood? That's a great looking piece of wood. Can you pull that plant and reach back there to suck out the dirt with a vacuum?

The sphagnum looks a little dry. Give it a good spray down. Oh and you need some leaf litter. I'll send you some


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok I see the second tank now. That is nicely grown in. Which plants are the problem ones?


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## senditdonkey (Jan 19, 2013)

mfsidore said:


> Pics didn't work one sec. This is the heart attack tank



How did you get the plants to stay in there with the tank upside down?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Ok! Yeah my leaf litter never lasts long for whatever reason. I just ride removing the fern and found out that it broke the pot and rooted under ALL of the substrate.. As long as everyone agrees that a tub is better then the other tank for a few days I'm good. Do I just trow away all of the other substrate? ( dirt, leca, etc)


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

senditdonkey said:


> How did you get the plants to stay in there with the tank upside down?


My tanks don't like pics, it's trying to pout. Darts are now tree frogs.
Pics just don't like me, never stay upright.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know if I would go that far. I hate for you to take apart that nice tank. I see your dilema.

Hmm, what if you remove the dirt around the plant. Then fill in the hole with new substrate. I think Ed, or someone else smart, was telling us that fertilizers used on plants like the ones at Lowes breaks down over time. 

Ok hang on. I'm going to send a Bat Signal out to Ed.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Ok thanks so much Kris!


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I took my brom out, and it doesn't look like any fertilizer in in the tank but not sure. If I have to take apart the tank I'm willing too for the saftey of my frogs.oh and thanks to everyone who said my tank looked good, I was never really proud of it because of all of your guys tanks stinking awsome! Thanks again


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok Bat Signal sent. He'll be able to give you a good answer for this.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Ok, thanks kris !


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I know everyone has said this already but some sort of tub for a day or 2 is better right?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm starting to get worried again my mother says they have been like this for 6 months!?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes a tub is good. However, I'd wait a bit to see what you end up having to do. They've already been in there a while and I don't think another day or so will hurt. By then you will know what, if anything, you need to do to the tank.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

frogface said:


> Yes a tub is good. However, I'd wait a bit to see what you end up having to do. They've already been in there a while and I don't think another day or so will hurt. By then you will know what, if anything, you need to do to the tank.


Ok, thanks again Kris, out of every one here you've kept me calmed down the most because of the way you've looked out for me while I give out my info, and knowing that you've talked to my dad about my saftey. Thanks, to you that most
Mike


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

frogface said:


> Ok I see the second tank now. That is nicely grown in. Which plants are the problem ones?


Oh sorry brom and fern.
Mike


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I should have asked you this already. Does the 20 have a water feature? I ask because if it does, that is where the fertilizer would drain off to when dissolved. If your tank is 100% terrestrial, with no area where frogs can get into water, the fertilizer is less of a problem because it has nowhere to go but down. If you then siphon out the build up in the leca, or if it alredy has a drain, you might be ok. The fertilizer woont leach upwards though, only down.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Gotta keep this at the top of the list!


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Top of the list


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

mfsidore said:


> Top of the list


LMAO!! You gotta let people post on other threads. They'll still see yours


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

pdfCrazy said:


> I should have asked you this already. Does the 20 have a water feature? I ask because if it does, that is where the fertilizer would drain off to when dissolved. If your tank is 100% terrestrial, with no area where frogs can get into water, the fertilizer is less of a problem because it has nowhere to go but down. If you then siphon out the build up in the leca, or if it alredy has a drain, you might be ok. The fertilizer woont leach upwards though, only down.


No water feature. Just a small kind of raised pond that is dried out. So what your saying is that I'm most likely safe after this long if I get the fertilize water out of the leca? Does this mean I don't have to nuke and disassemble everything?!..:


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

frogface said:


> LMAO!! You gotta let people post on other threads. They'll still see yours


I know... Just a little paranoid


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm really torn... Tear the tank apart after this long or keep it like this and drain water? Frogs safety is #1 concern but it doesn't look like anyfrog/thing is effected. I'm really really stuck...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Patience young grasshopper 

See if Ed has any advice for you. I also sent out a PM to another fella who might be able to help. They might be in bed by now though!

My advice for now is to sleep on it and see what folks have to say tomorrow.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

frogface said:


> Patience young grasshopper
> 
> See if Ed has any advice for you. I also sent out a PM to another fella who might be able to help. They might be in bed by now though!
> 
> My advice for now is to sleep on it and see what folks have to say tomorrow.


Alright, your right master Froface, thanks for the help ill let you know what they think if they don't post it here.
Mike


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

mfsidore said:


> Alright, your right master Froface, thanks for the help ill let you know what they think if they don't post it here.
> Mike


froface! I like it!


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Point taken i should be in bed too 1130 GOSH! Who does this kid think he is?!?!?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

frogface said:


> froface! I like it!


I meant Frogface but Froface works I guess


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Night Kris thanks for the help. yawn...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You say "it's been like this for 6 months". What, exactly, does that mean? The plants have been in there for 6 months? The frogs have been in there for 6 months? Both the plants and the frogs have been in there for 6 months?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> I also sent out a PM to another fella who might be able to help. They might be in bed by now though!


Seriously Kris?? Have you ever looked at the time on some of my posts? I have a wicked case of insomnia.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Sorry, the plants were replaced and have been like this with the frogs for six months at least apparently.( moms info)


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

TIME THE $%#@ OUT:

Okay, are we cool? Deep breath...

PDFcrazy is quite correct, but there's too much talking and not enough doing. Yes, fertilizers and pesticides are problematic, and might not show problems immediately. 

Where, may I ask, did you get the idea that you can just place plants in the tank? Did someone tell you to do this?

Okay, the good news is that this is solvable in just a few hours:

1) Do NOT remove any hardware or built in furniture;
2) Remove all substrate and drain all water; at this point, were it my tank I would not concern myself with the divider or drainage layer. But that's me--others may want you to remove everything.

I believe that we can be thorough without being paranoid...

3) Substrate out? Good... Now wipe the tank and all hardware (logs, rocks) with a very warm, damp cloth;
4) Replace the substrate. I don't recall,but you do know to use a vivarium suitable substrate, such as ABG with tree fern, NE Herp mix, or a coir/tree fern/orchid bark mix.

No potting soil or peat-based substrates. Potting soils have perlite and chemicals; peat degrades too quickly in our tanks.

5) Go ahead, rearrange your tank. Relax... have fun...
6) Add new, aged water;
7) Take your plants to the sink. Get all kids, cats, bearded dragons, nut jobs out of the room.

The following applies whenever you acquire new plants:

--Lose the pots. If you need to use pots, use clay pots for terrestrials or net pots for mounting. No plastic pots;
--Gently shake most of the soil off the roots--do not be too harsh, as some plants can be shocked;
--Rinse ferns and soft-leaved plants thoroughly but gently with lukewarm water;
--Rinse harder leaved plants (bromeliads, aroids, cacti, peperomias with a diluted bleach or gentle soap mix. I prefer soap, cause it is gentler;
--Immediately rinse thoroughly--no interruptions--I am serious; 

8) Replant your plants. The bromeliads are better off up off the substrate;
9) Clean the glass with paper towels inside, moistened newspaper outside.

Btw--what is this malarkey about no pics? Can you at least get us pics of the plants?!?

Wait 7-10 days to make sure everything is cool, reintroduce the frogs.

Hope this helps.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

OK, if there were any wickedly toxic pesticides, they would have already done their damage, and killed your frogs long ago. Periodic misting should have rinsed most of the fertilizers down into the false bottom/Leca by now. At this point, I would just keep misting to continue rinsing any residue down, where you can remove it by siphoning. Increasing you misting schedule would speed this up.
If you are really worried, you can do a partial cleaning as either pdfcrazy or Kris, already mentioned. That would be scooping out the worst of the substrate around the plants and replacing that portion.
At this point, relax, you are 6 months in. It's not going to kill them. At this point, anything that happens will be more or less minor, and won't really directly impact your frogs. Sooner or later, you may see snails or slugs. Those are plant munchers, but you can always just bait them with lettuce and remove them periodically. Several of my vivs have a small type of snail in them and they don't trouble me. It is POSSIBLE, but that doesn't mean that it absolutely will happen, that you may eventually see Nemerteans. If that happens, Nemerteans eat springtails. Again, it's not the end of the world. That would just mean you'd have to concentrate more on isopods instead of springtails, for your microfauna. Nemerteans will also eat flies so IF you were to get them, you'd have to feed a little heavier. They won't ever directly attack your frogs.
What's done is done, so don't fret it. Those are issues that can be dealt with, IF it becomes a problem. The only way to eliminate those problems now, would be a complete breakdown and sterilization. Since that is out of the question, relax and don't fret it.
Now, if you opt to remove the plants and a few handfuls of substrate, I can help you out. Several of my vivs are very overgrown right now. If you can get dad to cover around $10 to cover shipping, I'd be glad to donate a nice plant package for you. You know the routine as you've been through it with Frogface. I'll need to speak to your mom or dad, directly. I'd be glad to send you some plant cuttings you won't find at Lowes. Fertilizer and pesticide free, but you'd want to do a precautionary bleach dip for potential pathogens. I do that with every plant that goes into my systems. I'd be glad to guide you through that.
Now relax and quit losing sleep over this!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Very cool of you, Doug


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

MFS: You know I'm not giving you a hard time, right? PDF, Doug, myself and the others just want you not to panic. 

For myself, I just wanted to give you some pointers for this situation and future reference. Seriously, this situation is quite fixable, and it will not take you that long. Just relax--and always rinse any new plants!

Reminders:
1) No plastic pots;
2) No potting soils;
3) No cleansers other than warm water.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Ok, thanks guys and girls. I have all week off of school, so I think I will just break it dawn a little bit and do everything everyone told me to do. Ill pm you Doug with my phone number and address once I ask if I can. I can pay for everything, I. Poor little kid but I work... Kind of
Mikt


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

In response to groundhog. I'm 13, and I was finally given the go ahead fine to get the frogs and build my tank(s) YES!. I worked on this 1 tank all year long. I had plants for it that I had growing all year also... They literally didn't grow an inch so not thinking I went out to buy some plants. I was excited to have new ones didn't even think about cleaning them before I put them in the tank. I then saw an old thread " look what I found at my grocery store" or something like that, and I read it and saw comments multiple times of people going crazy to see if he bleached or in someway took care of the plants so that nothing was introduced and I was sitting next to my tank at the time. I paused, stared, and panicked. This is the only tank out of 4 that I've done this too. Why? I have no clue, my excuse( not a very good one at that, shouldn't even bother saying it) I'm a beginner and had no idea. I care about my frogs, and I realize that I made a HUGE mistake. Sorry everyone, for using your time because I am obviously not too good at this. Thanks though everyone.
Oh, I didn't take other threads the wrong way, but I keep getting in trouble for trying to do stuff for my frogs.( I get yelled at for saying frog....)


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

just chill...it'll be okay...and as Pumilo says--if anything poisonous were on the plants...your frogs would've shown it by now. Sponsors on DB have wonderful plants to choose from...and they are from people who know that the plants will be in with frogs...and will always have better information than Lowes or HD...


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Judy S said:


> just chill...it'll be okay...and as Pumilo says--if anything poisonous were on the plants...your frogs would've shown it by now. Sponsors on DB have wonderful plants to choose from...and they are from people who know that the plants will be in with frogs...and will always have better information than Lowes or HD...


Yeah. I forgot to mention I just remembered that I did indeed ask if these would be safe to put in with my frogs. She said yes.... Why do I listen to people at STORES that sell stuff so they get paid?!?
I hate department stores....


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

487 views?! 58 responses!?!..... Slackers
Just kidding


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Hey Kiddo:

Well, I won't come down too harshly on the lady at the store. She is partially right that the plant varieties are safe. 

--Because these ornamental plants are not for human consumption, many people are not aware that they are treated and sprayed;
--Because the greenhouses often have lizards, snakes, frogs, running around, growers will think the pots are safe:

IOSPE PHOTOS

As I said, before:
--No potting soil. But don't go crazy on removing all of it, some plant's can get shocked.
What substrate do you use now?

--Rinsing: For soft-leaved plants, I do not like bleach or soap. I have seen it do damage. Just rinse thoroughly. For harder-leaved plants--aroids, bromeliads, peperomias, cacti--use a solution, but do not let it just sit on the leaves!

Now--do it and have fun


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I will thanks.
Mike
Oh yeah I use Eco earth, with leca under it.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Mike:

1) Mix some tree fern into the Eco earth--I go 1:1 ratio

2) You do use a divider between the LECA and the substrate, right?

G


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

senditdonkey said:


> How did you get the plants to stay in there with the tank upside down?


I want to know how he gets the water to stay in the dish upside down like that.

You're getting great advice. Relax, take a breath and follow the instructions given. The frogs are still alive.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Groundhog said:


> Mike:
> 
> 1) Mix some tree fern into the Eco earth--I go 1:1 ratio
> 
> ...


yes I do

mike


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## jloucks (Mar 10, 2013)

"Get all kids, cats, bearded dragons, nut jobs out of the room."

Lol,, too funny,, anywho...

Now, I am in no way saying that the scenario I encountered was smart on my part. But this was a long time ago and I was learning.

I wound up with a fire belly toad (toad? more like a frog) from the kids school. End of year animal close out. We put in for the bearded dragon or kingsnake, wound up with silly frog.

Right away the thing is eating me out of house and home. At 12 cents each per cricket (before I learned of online cricket wholesale) and numerous per day, it was an expensive pet.

I digress... I went to Home Depot, got some plants. Put them in the frog habitat. ....fertilizer pellets and all.

The frog, being pretty much an eating machine, would lunge for crickets and would occasional miss and eat a fertilizer pellet!!! KAK!

Now, sudden horrible froggy death was expected. But no, he was fine.

I have since removed these toxins from the tank. I know that he is not a PDF and they are probably way more sensitive, but my whole point being the fertilizer pellets are not froggy arsenic. If you pull them pronto, I think you will be fine.


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## BDport (Feb 17, 2009)

Relax
Kid, you're already ahead of the learning curve.
You made a mistake, realized it, researched it and asked for help.

Wayyy more than alot of adults 

This hobby is very cerebral, lots of learnings for all.
Keep on doing your best and you will find Darts are very rewarding.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words and advice everyone. Just waiting on a phone call and then I'm all fixed up.
Mike


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Seriously Kris?? Have you ever looked at the time on some of my posts? I have a wicked case of insomnia.


Your not alone with this... Barring medications which make me sleep, my body want to be up until 2-3 AM EST and sleep until 8-9 Am... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If they used a granular slow release fertilizer in the potting mix (most are soilless and do use some form of fertilizer), it can take months to break down. The easiest way to deal with this issue is to make religious water removals (if the tank has an automatic drain so much the better) to encourage the flushing of the nutrients. Also don't let the upper levels of the substrate become water soaked as this combined with the extra nutrients could in theory increase the presence of some potentially pathenogenic bacteria (both for people and the frogs). 

There are reports of impactions in other species both from things like perlite (white styrofoam looking pieces) and slow release fertilizer shells (once the fertilizer has leached out) so care should be taken when planting to make sure none of this is at the surface or is left in the tank from the removal of the plants. 

There are fertilizers that can be used in the tank but these are generally not necessary as there are usually fairly large nutrient imports into the tank in the way of the feeder insects and supplements so fertilizers aren't really necessary in the vast majority of enclosures. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

For people who buy plants at nurseries--the shell-like stuff is Osmocote most likely or a similiar product...it is usually sprinkled on the surface of the "soil" so that every time the plant is watered, some of the slow release fertilizer is disolved to feed the plant. So when you brush off the surface of the plant, it is a good first step in preparing the plant for its eventual placement in a tank...As Ed points out...the shell takes a very long time to break down...


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Alright, thanks everyone.
Mike


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## lhu659982 (Aug 31, 2012)

Just to add, next time I would just rinse off the plant well if you're going to put it straight in the tank. I have done it without any problems. You just want to make sure the fertilizer doesn't make it into the tank. I actually raise my plants in fertilized soil and when I am ready to use them I just rinse them off and insert into pre-cut/dug hole. 

Good Luck and glad to hear that you got it figured out.


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

Yeah I will, thanks.


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