# Unusual Plants



## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

I picked up the Life magazine - 'Wonders of Life' issue at a bookstore earlier and came across some interesting plants that were featured in the magazine. I thought I'd share them to you guys.

First was the Giant Moss or 'Dawsonia Superba' found in Australia. It said in the magazine that this moss can grow up to 18" inches long!

here's a picture of it I found online. 









I wonder how this moss will do in a Vivarium setup? Has anyone tried this? or anyone know where I can get a hold of some?



The other plant I found unusual was the Underground Orchid. It's really an interesting plant. It doesn't have any leaves and it completely lives underground.

Here's some more info I found on Wikipedia



> Rhizanthella gardneri, also known as Western Underground Orchid, was discovered in the spring of 1928 in the wheatbelt of Western Australia.
> 
> Jack Trott had bent to investigate an odd crack that had appeared in his garden's soil, and had noticed a sweet smell that arose from the ground. Scraping away the soil, he soon uncovered a tiny white flower, about half an inch across, growing underground. What he had found was an entirely new type of orchid.
> 
> ...












Sadly this plant is really rare  I'll probably never get my hands on this thing


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## ashb (Dec 9, 2009)

raimeiken said:


> Sadly this plant is really rare  I'll probably never get my hands on this thing


Plus, that thing has to be incredibly difficult to grow  it says it needs a mycorrhizal fungus + a shrub just for it to obtain nutrients and live!


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

yeah seriously! LOL 

I think that's why they haven't successfully cultivate this plant


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

To be honest, no one has probably even bothered. Haha.


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

I think there's a huge potential for money here if someone really does find a way to grow and propagate this succesfully.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

I want that orchid haha


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Fruiting orchid eh? That's interesting.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The orchids that need that symbiotic relationshp are considered impossible to grow,since keeping the host plant, and the mycorhizal fungus that supplies the orchid and shrub with nutrients happy is extremely difficult. Better seen and appreciated i the wild. We have a neat orchid called a coral root (corallorhiza) here in WA that also needs that mycorhizal relationship


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

Thank you raimeiken, i now know what that giant mossy stuff i have is lol. Its quite common in my neck of the woods, get it in the rainforest and in wet schlerophyll. I cant say i've been successfull in growing it as i did let it dry out a bit when i collected it. I'm thinking of going back to where there is a huge patch of this moss shortly to try it again, will bring a plastic bag this time lol. I'm sure if its easy to grow it would be no hassle to send some spores over your way, i know most seed is fine to post overseas so i dont see why moss spores would be any different. On the topic of that orchid i believe it can be grown quite easily in a flask on a nutrient jelly, same way they grow orchids from seed. I know it has been grown and as far as i know there are no real issues as the nutriet jelly removes the need for the fungi. I was actually thinking about this recently, i recon it would be an interesting project to propagate these and sell them in flask, possibly to help raise money for orchid conservation. Not sure how big this plant grows but i'm sure you could get a flask big enough for a flowering plant. Only issue i see if the nutrients running out too quick. It would be a novelty plant, once its out of nutrients thats it but you would want the nutrients to at least last long enough to see the plant flower and enjoy it. Sorry for rambling lol. If anyone does want to try that moss i can try and get some spores for you, if interested swing me a pm


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

correct me if I'm wrong but won't regular fertilizer or the slow release fertilizer work on the orchid?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

no. Since that orchid cannot produce sugars at all for itself it needs the fungus wrapped around its roots to provide all its nutrients. things like nitrogen phoshorous etc from fertilizers are a moot point when the plant cant produce its sugars. No leaves = no chlorophyll= not a self sustaining plant.


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

but what about the nutrient jelly he was speaking off? Isn't that considered a fertilizer?

And when it runs out, can't you simply refill/add more so the plant won't die?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

This is very similar to the way many reef corals survive with the zoozanthellae. Just feeding them won't do, they need the symbiotic relationship to survive.

This plant should be left alone in the wild where it belongs.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

fleshfrombone said:


> Fruiting orchid eh? That's interesting.


All flowering plants produce fruit my friend. 

Ever had vanilla?


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> All flowering plants produce fruit my friend.
> 
> Ever had vanilla?


Yeah I suppose that's true. What is this vanilla you speak of? Sounds like some new world sorcery to me.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I dunno but its damn good when added to pancakes or warm milk and honey.


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

the nutrient jelly possibly needs to be inoculated with the fungi but i'm not sure. Orchid seed needs a mycorrhizal fungi to germinate but in flask that need is taken away, i'd assume it was the same when they cultivated the R. gardneri but as i said they may have had to inoculate the jelly with the specific fungi this species needs. Its not an attractive plant thats for sure but certainly is an interesting one


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

no, you cannot substitute nutrient jelly for the mycorhizal relationship. This plant cannot produce sugars. The host plant is providing sugars to the fungi which is providing them to the orchid. There is no other way around it. Nutrient jellies won't replace the plants ability to obtain glucose.


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

there has to be a way around it, it has been grown successfully before. It seems you know a little bit about orchids relationship with fungi so mayb you can answer this question. All orcgids require mycorrhiza at some stage in their life, some require it in all life stages such as this, all orchids at least need it for seed germination as they lack an endosperm. What is the difference between the relationship an orchid seed has with the fungi to germinate and the relationship it has with Saprotrophic orchids? I havent done any research into this so also some good resources youl could recomend to read up would be appreciated


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

so, beyond all orchid seed needing fungi to germinate, these orchids have a mycorrhizae that penetrates the root structure of the adult plant. Mycorrhizae is different than the normal types of fungi present on the barks of trees, rocks etc. Mycorrhizae cannot live without the symbiosis with another tree. This is why edible mushrooms like chantrelles and truffles are so valuable, without a host tree, they cant live, and so can only be cultivated in settings that provide that host. All attempts to cultivate them without meet with failure, or results so pooor it might as well be considered fauilure. It was either Oregon State University or the University of Oregon that first successfully fruited chantrelles in a controlled, greenhouse setting, but they still used a host tree, and got 1 mushroom. 

In the wild, once most epiphytic orchids mature, the fungi is still present iin the roots, penetrating the velamen and providing nutrients to the orchid. These fungi are not providing sugars at this point just phosphorous and nitrogen and definitely facilitate water transport. In actuality, the fungi is taking sugars away from the plant in exchange, because thats the way the symbiosis works.

Mycorrhizae are especially good at transportinig nitrogen and phosphorous. All other orchids eventually produce leaves, meaning they can produce their own sugars. Without the direct "injection" of sugars to this terrestrial orchid, it has no way to power its life functions.
The need for mycorrhizae in flasked orchids is eliminated for the most part...some still require it invitro, because as soon as the seed germinates, there are bioavailable sugars, hormones, etc that start it out. BUT in a matter of days, these plants are producing chlorophyll, and are able to produce their own sugars. 
This particular orchid relies on the mycorrhizae stealing its sugars from the host plant, transporting them through its mycelial matrix, into the roots of the orchid via structures called arbuscules that the fungi forms within the cell walls of the orchids roots. 

Im betting the "successful" cultivation of this species was short lived, and involved the digging up of a mature wild specimin. As the fungi deteriorated from lack of the primary host, the orchid died with it. Eventually the fungi probably started taking the stored sugars from the orchid. Im betting this orchid has a corm that gives it the ability to go dormant when needed. These are great at storing sugars, especially in the form of starches, and might have allowed the orchid to live for several years before depleting all its reserves and starving to death


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

Cheers mate . One think i was thinking of, if you were able to find the specific species of plant the Mycorrhizae requires and cultivate that in the garden, would it be possible to inocculate it with the specific Mycorrhizae and in turn possibly "cultivate" one of these orchids. I'd assume it would be since it would basicly be in the wild, just in a garden. Also here you can buy potted oaks that are inocculated with the truffle fungi, would it be possible to do the same for Mycorrhizae and grow orchids of this type in a pot with their host?


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Awesome post Jason!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hornet said:


> Cheers mate . One think i was thinking of, if you were able to find the specific species of plant the Mycorrhizae requires and cultivate that in the garden, would it be possible to inocculate it with the specific Mycorrhizae and in turn possibly "cultivate" one of these orchids. I'd assume it would be since it would basicly be in the wild, just in a garden. Also here you can buy potted oaks that are inocculated with the truffle fungi, would it be possible to do the same for Mycorrhizae and grow orchids of this type in a pot with their host?


There has been a poor history of transplanting attempts using truffles.. for example, attempts to cultivate European truffles on oaks planted in areas of the USA with similar climates have not provided any real success (much like the example in the greenhouse cited above). It seems to work okay in areas of Europe but with little success elsewhere.... 

It is not as easy as you suggest as micorrhizae can also have requirements that have to be met beyond simply providing the host plant. I would suspect that the host plant isn't that difficult to cultivate.. 

Ed


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

Ed said:


> There has been a poor history of transplanting attempts using truffles.. for example, attempts to cultivate European truffles on oaks planted in areas of the USA with similar climates have not provided any real success (much like the example in the greenhouse cited above). It seems to work okay in areas of Europe but with little success elsewhere....
> 
> It is not as easy as you suggest as micorrhizae can also have requirements that have to be met beyond simply providing the host plant. I would suspect that the host plant isn't that difficult to cultivate..
> 
> Ed


good point, i'm sure as with plants the fungi would also have specific requirements like soil temp, ph, water etc. Might have to do some research see if i can find anyone with knowledge on the specifics of this "successful" cultivation, see if i can get any info on how it was done and how long it lasted


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Many people have dropped their entire fortunes into trees innoculated with truffle mycelium,only to lose everything due to no returns. Im sure the initial host plant for the mycorrize is easy to grow, but lke Ed pointed out, fungi have very specific requirements that must be met, if the fungi is to thrive. Think too that since what you are seeing s the orchids flower, there is a good chance you'd only see it for a week each year, and theres a definite possibility it needs extreme environmental triggers like fire to get it to bloom in the first place.

Is it POSSIBLE to get said tree innoculated with mycorrhizae in your garden? yes. igging up a wild bush might be the easiest route if its legal to do so. 

Does that guarantee the mycorrhizae will live? Not a chance, in nature there are no guarantees.

Here's a big question for you, sice this orchid is not commercially available, you would have to remove it from the wild. Is that legal? I would definitely find out before even considering it. CITES protects almost all wild orchids, and I think Australia is very protective of its wildlife


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## Hornet (Sep 29, 2010)

As far as i'm aware the only plants they have ever found of any of the species in this genus have been during earthworks when they have accidently been dug up. I wasnt thinking of actually doing it was more just thinking it could possibly work. I'm still not convinced it would be impossible but i'll try and find info on the successful cultivation on that species. As with the truffles i would assume they do have success growing them as there is a bussiness that commercially produces oaks inocculated with the truffle fungi. Info can be found here French Harvest - Truffle Trees


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

Wow! lots of good quality posts in this thread 


Do you guys have any other unusual or rare plants that you'd like to share?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Oh plenty of people sell truffle innoculated trees, but success is limited, unless its in native soil. Oregon white truffles do much better here than any of the european varieties. Also, they are finding it might take up to 50 years for harvestable yields from some of these orchards. Worth it in the long run? most likely, but only time will tell. I could sell you all kinds of stuff, including trees whose roots are "innoculated" with mycorrhizal mycelium. Would I guarantee there are spores/mycelium along with the roots? Yup. Culd guarantee yields? No way. Many people who are doing this with chantrelles here just throw some mushrooms in a bucket of water, wait for the spores to release,then dunk seedling trees in the water, burlap up the root wads, and pour the rest of the water over the root ball. Does it provide successful results? yes, to an extent, but the method is far from proving to be 100 percent successful. Another method, which is maybe a thousand years old, involves planting seedlings around trees with proven mycorrhizae, then digging them up several years later, hoping the mycelium has spread to the seedlings root zone.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That is what I remember from it.. and keep in mind that even if the tree is inoculated, it doesn't mean it will ever produce as conditions for mushroom fruiting tend to be precise. I really should get the latest edition of Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms... 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah you should, Paul Stamets is my hero. Check out his book on sing fungi for bioremediation "Mycelium running"


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

Mycelium Running is an awesome book! I love the idea that mycelium is like an informational network connecting the forest, making the soil one giant information/nutrient highway. Not to mention that mycelium seems to have something in common with neural networks.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I really want to go work for him when Im out of school. If you ever get a chance to see him speak, take it! He is very inspiring


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## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

The photo of the Underground Orchid in the first page is by Fred Hort by the way 

Flickr: jeans_Photos' Photostream


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## epiphyte (Jan 25, 2011)

Dang, I've been a member of more than 3 orchid boards for quite a while and have never run across such a quality in depth discussion! It's funny to find it on a board for dart frogs.

Let's see...it was mentioned earlier that orchid seedlings in flasks can survive without their nutrient solution several days after germinating. Boy, I really really wish this were true. And for some species it might be. But in my admittedly limited experience...and in the less limited experience of others...this is not the case. That being said, it would be really great if more people prematurely deflasked their seedlings so that we could determine the earliest time that that species could be successfully grown outside of the flask in regular orchid media. 

Generally orchid growers wait until the seedlings have relatively well developed roots...which can take quite a few months for most species...and requires replating from flasks that contains nutrients that encourage germination... to flasks that contain nutrients that encourage development. 

On the other side of the spectrum, I'm guessing that orchids can stay in flasks indefinitely as precocious miniatures orchids...such as twig epiphytes...have been known to flower while still inside of the flask. 

Generally I've considered the mycorrhiza/orchid relationship to be parasitic...where the orchid seed steals nutrients from the mycorrhiza. The mycorrhiza has to be present for an orchid seed to germinate...so clearly it is not dependent on the orchid seed for survival. But when the orchid plant is mature...why is the mycorrhiza still present in the orchid roots? 

Back in the old days, they used to germinate orchid seeds by sprinkling them on top of the media of the orchid that produced the seeds. It seems that the mycorrhiza was able to colonize the media from the orchid roots. On my Cedar Tree I have a Dockrillia teretifolium with a root that goes up the branch for around 6 feet. Do orchid roots help facilitate colonization of the mycorrhiza? 

Regarding conservation...well...it's on a case by case basis...but for the large majority of orchid species...their chances of survival is greater with collectors than out in the wild where they face rampant habitat destruction. CITES has no authority to protect an orchid in an area about to be developed...all it does is impose obstacles when foreign collectors attempt to rescue those orchids that are about to be destroyed. Here's my post on an orchid forum dedicated to the topic...Man Saves Wild.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

you can't lump that subterranean orchid in with the rest in regards to flask culture etc. because it produces NO chlorophyll, unlike most orchids that can bgin sugar production due to photosynthesis. The orchid itself in this case could be considered a third wheel parasite, as the host plant and mycorrhizae are in a symiotic relationship, while the orchid relies on it for sugars, macronutriets etc, and can't really produce anything in excess to redistribute to the fungus or the host plant.


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