# UVB Discussed.



## Aldross

Since this is being discussed a fair amount in other threads I felt rather than take away from the topics of others it would be better to start a thread just for this.
While UVB does have benefits to many creatures the effects that it plays on amphibians is still a work in progress. I have been unable to find anything that supports the use of UVB lighting on an enclosure. To the contrary I have found many studies stating ill effects of UVB, most of these cover the effects on eggs and those going through metamorphosis.


> Because amphibian eggs lack shells and adults and tadpoles have thin delicate skin, they are extremely vulnerable to increased levels of UV-B radiation. It is likely that increases in ambient levels of UV-B radiation have significantly contributed to amphibian population declines (Blaustein and Wake 1995).


The detrimental effects of UV-B on amphibians varies among species and between populations of the same species. These effects also vary among life stages within the same species. For example, in some species developing embryos die when exposed to low levels of ambient UV-B radiation whereas the embryos of other species show no overt effects of being exposed to high levels of UV-B radiation. To complicate things even further, in some species the larval stage is more vulnerable than the embryo stage and in other species the most detrimental effects of UV-B radiation occurs after metamorphosis. 


> Researchers have found that UV-B radiation can kill amphibians directly, cause sublethal effects such as slowed growth rates and immune dysfunction and work synergistically with contaminants, pathogens and climate change (Kiesecker and Blaustein 1995, Long et al. 1995, Anzalone et al. 1998, Blaustein et al. 1998, Belden and Blaustein 2002a).





> Exposed embryos of Bufo boreas to enhanced UVB administered by sunlight simulating flourescent lamps. Tadpoles exposed daily to enhanced UVB displayed abnormal development of presumptive cornea, epidermal hyperplasia, curvature of the spine ("lordosis") and increased mortality. (Worrest and Kimeldorf 1975,1976)


----------



## TheCoon

A significant point that must be addressed is the difference between providing a small basking point for X% of the day versus lighting the entire tank with UVB for 12 hours/day. Providing the animal with the option to expose itself to UVB rather than forcing constant exposure is the difference between success with UVB and the studies cited above.


----------



## JPccusa

A few threads discussing the topic:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...art-frogs-need-uvb-light-like-lizards-do.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/185425-pumilio-uvb-wild.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/8921-uv-lighting.html#post73041
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/51198-uvb.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/60169-uvb.html


----------



## Aldross

TheCoon said:


> A significant point that must be addressed is the difference between providing a small basking point for X% of the day versus lighting the entire tank with UVB for 12 hours/day. Providing the animal with the option to expose itself to UVB rather than forcing constant exposure is the difference between success with UVB and the studies cited above.


What about when dealing with obligates. You can have no control over where the eggs are placed and where the tad will be deposited. There is quite a bit of proof that UVB can cause them many issues. 
In 1981 a study was done with only exposing salamanders to UVB in 30min/15min/5min intervals. It was only done 3 times a week with high and low flux. The ones in the 30 minute group showed much higher mortality rates than the other 15 and 5 minute groups.


----------



## Aldross

JPccusa said:


> A few threads discussing the topic:
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...art-frogs-need-uvb-light-like-lizards-do.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/185425-pumilio-uvb-wild.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/8921-uv-lighting.html#post73041
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/51198-uvb.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/60169-uvb.html


Thanks JP. I was able to add a couple good papers to my "library" from those threads.


----------



## TheCoon

Aldross said:


> What about when dealing with obligates. You can have no control over where the eggs are placed and where the tad will be deposited. There is quite a bit of proof that UVB can cause them many issues.
> In 1981 a study was done with only exposing salamanders to UVB in 30min/15min/5min intervals. It was only done 3 times a week with high and low flux. The ones in the 30 minute group showed much higher mortality rates than the other 15 and 5 minute groups.


If the frogs choose to lay their eggs or deposit tadpoles in the small area where UVB will be present, then that batch of offspring MAY unfortunately suffer the fate of natural selection (I realize the habitats we provide are unnatural in essence). Although I may have no control where the frogs lay eggs, I do have control over where I place the basking spot. Positioning the basking spot over an area with no deposition/laying sites is an easy solution. 

Again, the study you are presenting forced a certain amount of exposure on the animal. It's irrelevant how often or how intense if the animal is not permitted to regulate its own needs. Those who do provide their animals with a UVB basking spot will tell you that their animals will bask under the light every so often. Why would the animal do this if it were harmful?

In addition, dozens of hobbyists have been providing their frogs with UVB for some time now yet the only threads we see come up on the subject use these same studies to refute the use of UVB. If it were truly harmful don't you think you would see more of those who haved used UVB unsuccessfully chiming in, rather than just having to rely on the studies that may or may not have any real application?


----------



## aspidites73

While you support your arguments of potential harm and, mostly, unnecessary, nothing you've provided says it can't still be a benefit in situations where diet alone can not provide enough d3, even if only for short durations in potentially deficient animals. Aka tiny obligate neomorphs. If they have a mechanism to use it, why not take advantage of it.



Aldross said:


> Since this is being discussed a fair amount in other threads I felt rather than take away from the topics of others it would be better to start a thread just for this.
> While UVB does have benefits to many creatures the effects that it plays on amphibians is still a work in progress. I have been unable to find anything that supports the use of UVB lighting on an enclosure. To the contrary I have found many studies stating ill effects of UVB, most of these cover the effects on eggs and those going through metamorphosis.
> 
> 
> The detrimental effects of UV-B on amphibians varies among species and between populations of the same species. These effects also vary among life stages within the same species. For example, in some species developing embryos die when exposed to low levels of ambient UV-B radiation whereas the embryos of other species show no overt effects of being exposed to high levels of UV-B radiation. To complicate things even further, in some species the larval stage is more vulnerable than the embryo stage and in other species the most detrimental effects of UV-B radiation occurs after metamorphosis.


----------



## Aldross

aspidites73 said:


> While you support your arguments of potential harm and, mostly, unnecessary, nothing you've provided says it can't still be a benefit in situations where diet alone can not provide enough d3, even if only for short durations in potentially deficient animals. Aka tiny obligate neomorphs. If they have a mechanism to use it, why not take advantage of it.


You're correct, I have not supplied that information. Neither has anyone else though. 
When vitamin D requirements cannot be met by diet, direct solar exposure is the most effective method of promoting biosynthesis of vitamin D. This is not the case for our hobby though. Our frogs meet the requirements through diet by our supplementation. Can UVB cause problems? Yes at times. Does it increase the cost of enclosures and lighting? Yes. Since we supplement is it needed? Nope. So why bother when It has been proven that some dendrobates will actually try and hide from it. If someone can find a study that states that even though we provide the required nutrients UVB out weights the possible risks I would love to read it. As far as I have found it has only been anecdotal statements that some frogs came out for a couple minutes of UVB then retreated back to the foliage.
As for your asking about the tiny obligates, how do you intend for them to get the nutrients to do the conversion. The diet commonly offered will not provide the vitamins to create 7-dehydrocholesterol in the skin to then be converted to the previtamin D3 which then gets thermally converted to vitamin D3.

Edit: I don't mean for this to be an argument but rather a quest for more information into the subject. Since I am not a scientist nor a researcher by profession this sharing of what we have found is the best way for us to find what we consider best for our frogs.


----------



## TheCoon

It's easier to prove something is harmful than to prove it is beneficial. I could pick any variable and expose a frog to an excess amount and see negative effects. That doesn't mean I'm going to start a case against the variable across all levels... Stick a frog in a tub of water for 30 minutes with no means of escape. If it drowns, does that mean water is bad for frogs?


----------



## Ian Hiler

I would guess that most of us that work with large egg feeders and frogs found in higher elevations would prefer to keep using their UVB bulbs.


----------



## TheCoon

Interesting read: Amphibians and Ultraviolet Radiation


----------



## Aldross

What benefits have you proven that your UVB provides?
How have you modified your viv to allow the UVB to pass through? 
As long as you supplement vitamins the need for UVB has not shown to have any benefit.


----------



## Ed

A lot of this has been discussed here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## aspidites73

Too many different points are being argued here. Let me outline my position, exactly.

Obligate froglets die too frequently for us to say we are adequately supplying their needs. Our biggest challange is properly supplimenting something so small we don't have enough control over what it eats. To a certain extent we may be able to bypass this problem by providing microfauna cultured in calcium rich substrate already in the vivaria AND a short supply of UV-b radiation (the part of sunlight that does the same thing in nature, btw) whereby our froglets can, if their instincts take them there, utilize a different form of d3 sUpplimentation that they do have the ability to use, anyway!

Water can be bad if you're face down in it. I get it! UV radiation ain't all that good in large amounts, either. However, one thing you can not debate it that in nature these animals do come in contact with uv wavelengths. How they use it is anyone's guess but, who gets access to it may not be your choice to make!


----------



## aspidites73

Thanks, Ed. I have the .pdf, you long ago beat me to the link!



Ed said:


> A lot of this has been discussed here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ian Hiler

For those of you that work with the animals I previously mentioned and are not providing a UVB source. Make a small clearing (usually a branch) add a UVB source and watch what happens!


----------



## Spaff

Every large obligate breeder that has spoken to me about their husbandry practices swear by the use of UVB. These keepers are also highly successful in producing these animals in decent numbers. You aren't likely to find a definitive study using the same methods we use in our vivs, but you will see positive anecdotes on the pro-UVB side. Animals that were not supplemented with UVB at all are suddenly given a source, and they visibly bask under the light for a significant amount of time. 

Have you heard any negative anecdotes of UVB? I've personally never heard of a frog being fried under a light or an egg clutch or tads developing abnormally on a hobby level. If those stories exist somewhere, I'd like to read it. Saying that UVB may damage tads because we have no control over where they deposit may be true, but what isn't taken into account is that these frogs have an idea of what they're doing. They have the ability to not deposit an egg clutch in the wide open under a UVB light. You've already mentioned they retreat from it at times in the wild, so they are aware that it's there. 

How do we know our supplementation is sufficient? Do you know how much supplement the flies retain at the time of eating? What about shy eaters or crepuscular species? They won't get the same amount of dusting as a tinc or terribilis who sits out front and begs. Personally, I think we still have a ways to go with artificial nutrition before we can say supplements are the "end all". Too many obligate froglets still morph with skeletal deformities and other developmental issues for me to say that nothing is wrong with their diet. Have we come a long way, sure? Can we rest on our laurels and say it's good enough? Heck no!

Many here like to complain that PDF husbandry has taken a "recipe" approach. Saying "ehh, its good enough as it is...why experiment?" falls right back into that approach. Honestly, I applaud those in the hobby who attempt to innovate and further good husbandry practices, and I think providing UVB is a step in that direction.


----------



## nish07

It's interesting. There's a paper stating that grannies will call from a dark hidden place out of UVB exposure. Generally I think they're calling from a dark hidden place, period with the amount of UVB not being important. My male always calls from the darkest spot in the viv at the highest point. When he's not calling he may be anywhere eating or walking around. The rest walk anywhere. The paper says they can see UV where humans can't. I have measured with a solarmeter the thin strip of UVB from my arcadia t5 that traverses the tank. It's about a 2-3" strip that's about 2 feet long (in a 2 foot cube). They'll sit under it when they want and they can apparently see it to know it's there. It's about half open sunlight UVB at the top and nearly none at the bottom.

My f1 paru sits directly under the vent quite a bit. Direct sunlight is very very high UVB. It's kind of ridiculous to think that these frogs are not getting UVB in the wild at even higher levels than the bulbs I use. They do have most of the viv to get out of it.

I've been told that froglets raised under UVB end up being leggier and look more wild type. I can't say for certain because I haven't done any measurements =P but that seems to be the case in some of my frogs. 

Giving frogs an area of UVB gives them the option to use it. I think it's a good thing.

-Nish


----------



## aspidites73

Who has a direct line of communication with the animals that speaks the same language! 



nish07 said:


> It's interesting. There's a paper stating that grannies will call from a dark hidden place out of UVB exposure. Generally I think they're calling from a dark hidden place, period with the amount of UVB not being important. My male always calls from the darkest spot in the viv at the highest point. When he's not calling he may be anywhere eating or walking around. The rest walk anywhere. The paper says they can see UV where humans can't. I have measured with a solarmeter the thin strip of UVB from my arcadia t5 that traverses the tank. It's about a 2-3" strip that's about 2 feet long (in a 2 foot cube). They'll sit under it when they want and they can apparently see it to know it's there. It's about half open sunlight UVB at the top and nearly none at the bottom.
> 
> My f1 paru sits directly under the vent quite a bit. Direct sunlight is very very high UVB. It's kind of ridiculous to think that these frogs are not getting UVB in the wild at even higher levels than the bulbs I use. They do have most of the viv to get out of it.
> 
> I've been told that froglets raised under UVB end up being leggier and look more wild type. I can't say for certain because I haven't done any measurements =P but that seems to be the case in some of my frogs.
> 
> Giving frogs an area of UVB gives them the option to use it. I think it's a good thing.
> 
> -Nish


----------



## Aldross

I never meant to imply that our current situation is perfect. I am well aware that we must strive to always improve. 
Since everything that has been brought up is based upon the experience of others I will also give it a go. 
Once the pumilio morph out I will see what kind of effect low lv UVB plays on them. 
Spaff, Nish thank you for your well spoken posts. 
My intention here was to learn more and share what I had come across.


----------



## TheCoon

I guess I should've mentioned more about large obligates. That got your attention.


----------



## Ian Hiler

No one obviously can talk to your frogs. I truly appreciated Zach and Nish's elaboration on my short response. A bit more history from my perspective. I was just like you (Aldross) I didn't think UVB was a factor in darts. One friends and also major breeder brought this to my attention in the early 90's. So, I saw blue jeans revisiting a falling log, granies on palm fronds, Retic's in a canopy break (out house) and O. Specious up off their cliff face of their homes.
I would like to challenge all of you to try and spend some time in the field with the creatures you keep in small glass enclosures!


----------



## Aldross

Ian Hiler said:


> No one obviously can talk to your frogs. I truly appreciated Zach and Nish's elaboration on my short response. A bit more history from my perspective. I was just like you (Aldross) I didn't think UVB was a factor in darts. One friends and also major breeder brought this to my attention in the early 90's. So, I saw blue jeans revisiting a falling log, granies on palm fronds, Retic's in a canopy break (out house) and O. Specious up off their cliff face of their homes.
> I would like to challenge all of you to try and spend some time in the field with the creatures you keep in small glass enclosures!


Ian I appreciate your input on the matter. You have been at this far longer than many. I don't have a long history in darts and there is always something new to learn. My interest had long been tree frogs and arachnids. Because of that I rely on the studies that I have access to. 
I don't discount anything that others say that have been around long enough to try and fail then learn and improve. Many of the senior hobbyist have wrote the " recipe" for pdf keeping. All I asked was for something to back up claims. As stated though, those may not exist due to the size and circumstances of our hobby.


----------



## Ian Hiler

Just trying to understand and read between the "lines" it seem your mind may have already been made up before your initial this post . Go see the frogs you work with in the field. As an alternative, as I posted earlier, give them a UVB source and observe their response.


----------



## amgini

I've been following this thread. I am considering add UVB bulb to my viv. For those of you who are using UVB, which uv bulb are you using, how many hours per day do you have it on and how are you mounting it to your viv? Thanks.


----------



## kblack3

amgini said:


> I've been following this thread. I am considering add UVB bulb to my viv. For those of you who are using UVB, which uv bulb are you using, how many hours per day do you have it on and how are you mounting it to your viv? Thanks.



I piggy back this question I'll be using a custom LED hood, are there quality UVB producing LEDs?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TheCoon

kblack3 said:


> I piggy back this question I'll be using a custom LED hood, are there quality UVB producing LEDs?



Last I looked there are UVB producing LEDs but they are not cheap. If someone knows an affordable source that would be awesome.


----------



## Ian Hiler

UVB LEDS have just recently been made in Japan, will be a while till we see them in the pet trade.
The next LED revolution is upon us, and it is ultraviolet - Nikkei Asian Review

Light your reptiles caries a good assortment of bulb T5 HO's and T8's.
Arcadia UV Lighting | Solarmeters | Light Fixtures | Jungle Dawn LED |


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

The uv leds they are making in Japan are short wave uv (uvc) for germicidal uses, uv sterilizers and things. UVB is 280-315 nm. 

Online you can already get single leds at 310 nm for $171.00 for the led and driver for .5 to 1 watt.


----------



## kblack3

planted-tnk-guy said:


> The uv leds they are making in Japan are short wave uv (uvc) for germicidal uses, uv sterilizers and things. UVB is 280-315 nm.
> 
> Online you can already get single leds at 310 nm for $171.00 for the led and driver for .5 to 1 watt.



I would assume a single would more than likely not be sufficient though so multiple would be required for short time frames daily possibly a few 10 min intervals so not to blast them with an unnatural dose of UVB?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

kblack3 said:


> I would assume a single would more than likely not be sufficient though so multiple would be required for short time frames daily possibly a few 10 min intervals so not to blast them with an unnatural dose of UVB?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have no idea how much would be or would not be enough. I would think since it is an led you wouldn't need many. I was just letting people know uvb leds are available (not cheap, yet) and the difference between the new Japanese ones being different at very low uv spectrums for germicidal use. I personally will wait for someone that knows about uvb and the amounts required for reptiles and amphibians to chime in and wait for the price to come down personally.


----------



## hypostatic

As others have mentioned and linked to, UVB has been thoroughly discussed in the past. The general conclusion and consensus to each conversation is that frogs don't require exposure to UVB if they are getting enough D3 in their diet. (this also happens to be true for humans).

I believe there is some anecdotal evidence that some obligates benefit from (or at least enjoy) UVB, as they will bask under the lights for short periods of time when given the chance. I don't think this is a necessity, more like when our dogs/cats lay in front of a sunny window.


----------



## ecichlid

From a PRACTICAL standpoint, what UVB bulb would you actually be using on your viv? The best UVB you can buy for a reasonable price is the ZooMed 5.0 or 10.0 bulb. I have use the 5.0 and then switched to a 10.0 in one of my vivs and 36"x18"x24" by the recommendation of Todd Goode. The other three bulbs in that viv are leds. Did you know that the even the higher intensity of the 10.0's UVB is about the equivalent of how much UVB you would be getting if you were outside in a mostly shady spot?

D. auratus have been observed in the wild (Lotters book) basking in direct sunlight, which is much less than what we would provide them in a viv.

Earlier in this post, someone made the point that food is the primary source of vitamin D and sunlight is secondary. I would like to challenge that notion, please cite a source. I suspect the reverse is true, but I don't know that for a fact.

In no way am I saying you need UVB for healthy frogs, but keep that study in perspective of being practical. We are hobbyists, not scientists. Trust me, there are scientists who study frogs who couldn't keep them at home alive if they tried.


----------



## Broseph

Since this is starting to become a catch-all UVB thread...

I've been wondering what people actually use to ALLOW UVB to penetrate into the viv. I see a lot of talk about Solacryl; whether it works or not, challenges of attaching it to glass, life span, etc. Others mention screen mesh; using courser grades than no-see-um to reduce filtration.

People who ACTUALLY use UVB... What are you using to keep frogs and flies in while allowing UVB to pass through?


----------



## Frogtofall

Broseph said:


> Since this is starting to become a catch-all UVB thread...
> 
> I've been wondering what people actually use to ALLOW UVB to penetrate into the viv. I see a lot of talk about Solacryl; whether it works or not, challenges of attaching it to glass, life span, etc. Others mention screen mesh; using courser grades than no-see-um to reduce filtration.
> 
> People who ACTUALLY use UVB... What are you using to keep frogs and flies in while allowing UVB to pass through?


I plan to have my next couple vivs made with low iron glass on the top or the front to allow me to use a fluorescent uvb bulb on top or a uvb basking lamp in front for UVB penetration.


----------



## TheCoon

Frogtofall said:


> I plan to have my next couple vivs made with low iron glass on the top or the front to allow me to use a fluorescent uvb bulb on top or a uvb basking lamp in front for UVB penetration.


Antone, low iron glass does not adequately allow for the transmission of critical UVB wavelengths. I think this is a common myth in the hobby. While this type of glass is advertised as being UV transmissive, they are referring to other wavelengths in the UV spectrum. Even the most UV transmissive glass still blocks 90-100% of the critical UVB spectrum.


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

Quartz glass transmits more than 10% uvb. It is the only glass that transmits uv rays at high levels. Here is the website and the nm graph of the flow of uv wavelengths http://www.pgo-online.com/intl/katalog/quartz-glass.html

On a side note it's expensive and hard to find unless you buy entire sheets.


----------



## Frogtofall

Thanks for the info. I was not aware. I guess I'll just keep doing what I've been doing. Ha!



TheCoon said:


> Antone, low iron glass does not adequately allow for the transmission of critical UVB wavelengths. I think this is a common myth in the hobby. While this type of glass is advertised as being UV transmissive, they are referring to other wavelengths in the UV spectrum. Even the most UV transmissive glass still blocks 90-100% of the critical UVB spectrum.


----------



## TheCoon

planted-tnk-guy said:


> Quartz glass transmits more than 10% uvb. It is the only glass that transmits uv rays at high levels. Here is the website and the nm graph of the flow of uv wavelengths Quartz Glass, UV-grade Fused Silica, Fused Quartz
> 
> On a side note it's expensive and hard to find unless you buy entire sheets.


Thanks for that info. I read a little about that but wrote it off due to a comment on high cost and availability


----------



## planted-tnk-guy

If you can ever score a starfire glass aquarium on cl cheap . Grab it for the glass.


----------



## ecichlid

Broseph said:


> People who ACTUALLY use UVB... What are you using to keep frogs and flies in while allowing UVB to pass through?


Stainless steel mesh that is also flyproof. Part# 9226T017 at McMaster-Carr


----------



## timmygreener

If been running 3 10.0 18 inch t8 uvb bulbs in my large mixed tank. They are directly mounted in the viv on the inside of the top. Away from any plants or objects that a frog may find a way up. I had them laying around from chameleons I used to have and they are definitely over a year old so I think they may loose a little power.

But I added them since I have a few stray anoles in there as well. But I haven't noticed any changes, I don't catch anyone basking really.

They are 3 feet from the bottom of a well planted giant tank. 

So the rays hitting the floor should be miniscule at best. Therea alot of cover for them so they could if they wanted bask at any given time and them find cover. I run a 12 hour light cycle.


----------



## Celtic Aaron

ecichlid said:


> Stainless steel mesh that is also flyproof. Part# 9226T017 at McMaster-Carr


Have you taken readings to see how much UVB is blocked by the screen? I am looking for a good way to utilize UVB.


----------



## Pubfiction

Celtic Aaron said:


> Have you taken readings to see how much UVB is blocked by the screen? I am looking for a good way to utilize UVB.


Most screen lists a percent transmission or open area and that is the number people generally go by, you want screen that is 50% open area or better IMO. All direct light should pass through and if you add reflectors you might increase the transmitted light further.


----------



## Ed

ecichlid said:


> Stainless steel mesh that is also flyproof. Part# 9226T017 at McMaster-Carr


If it is that fine then your probably having little if any UVB passing through the screen. There is a significant reduction in UVB passage as the mesh size shrinks. 
You want to get a copy of Evaluation of UVB reduction by materials commonly used in reptile husbandry - Michael Burger - 2007 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## nish07

The bulbs I use put out around 500uw at the bulb and around 100uw under the fine mesh screen going down to about 0-5 at the ground. If using solacryl, it loses next to none in which case I use a lower intensity bulb.

-Nish


----------

