# Ace Hardware silicone ingredients?



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Hello, Folks.
Someone suggested that I buy some Ace Hardware silicone to avoid the potential organotin problem. I bought some, but wanted to make sure it's the right stuff. What I like about this stuff is that the "ingredients" are listed right on the side. It may not be all of them, but at least they are making an effort, which is more than I can say for GE. Anyway, can someone take a look at the following chemicals and let me know if there is anything to worry about? This is the black "100% silicone" product (quotes because it is not true by definition...).

Anyway, here is the list:

Ethyltriacetoxysilane (17689-77-9)
Methyltriacetoxysilane (4353-34-3)
Silica (7631-86-9)
Titanium Dioxide (13463-67-7)
Polydimethylsiloxane (63148-62-9)
Hydroxy-terminated Dimethyl Siloxane (70131-67-8)

I don't know what the numbers are for, but there you go.

It does say "Appropriate for use in federally inspected meat and poultry plants."

Anyway, if anybody with a chemistry background can tell me if any of those things are organotins or if they are worrisome in their own right, I would really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance!

Mark


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Hi Mark,

I'm no chem major but I can tell you that there is an FDA regulation regarding rubber coming in contact with food. I believe this is what you want to look for, that the silicone conforms to 21 CFR 177.2600. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and here is a link to that regulation: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=177.2600

Here is a link to DAP silicone that meets the requirements of that regulation. If you look under product details, that's where it mentions this regulation:


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

I should also mention that it only states that it meets the requirements. That does not mean that the FDA has made any assessment or that it is FDA approved. The FDA may or may not agree that it meets those requirements


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## spiralinglotus21 (Apr 2, 2014)

I was at ace today and was debating wether to get the ace brand or GE. I almost got the ace until I read that it's mold resistant. This turned me off because I know using the GE mildew resistant silicone isn't a good idea. I'm not sure on the ingredients since you can't compare them to the GE brand.


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## Kalakole (Jun 30, 2011)

GE I is the way to go.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanks for the replies, folks. 

Interesting stuff about the FDA approval. I thought maybe that bit about being used in meat and poultry plants sort of suggested that it met some sort of food-grade safety standard, but who knows? 

GE I is the way to go for clear, but I don't believe it's available in black (or brown) anymore.

I would still be interested in hearing from anyone who knows about the chemicals listed.

Mark


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

One other thing with regard to the FDA regs. I was also looking at this sealant:

https://www.siliconedepot.com/silicone-sealant.php?page=details&id=15

Interestingly, it mentions the same wording about the meat and poultry plants but also mentions the same regulation that was linked by zimmerj above. Maybe this means that the Ace silicone meets that regulation, as well.

"Specifications:
USDA for use in federally inspected meat and poultry plants, FDA reg. #21, CFR 177.2600, TT-S-001543A (COM-NBS) Class A, TT-S00230C (COM-NBS) Class A MIL-A-46106B Amend. 3, Type 1. Canadian 19-GP-9MA Type 1. Meets ASTM C920, Class 25. Conforms to NSF Standard 51."

I like that this stuff is also less than $3.50 a tube 

Mark


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Organotins are about the curing agent used in the silicone. Organotins are what I choose to avoid in a silicone. If your silicone reeks, I mean smells really strongly of vinegar while curing, to the point where it burns your nostrils if you get too strong a whiff, then it does NOT have organotins in it.
The Ace Hardware brand of silicone does NOT have organotins in it. I have been using the Ace Hardware brand of silicone in several of my backgrounds with no noticeable ill effects to my frogs. My plants cling tightly to the backgrounds where I want them to, whereas some DendroBoarders have noted that plants don't like to root or cling to GE Silicone 2, and die back in that spot, refusing to root to the GE 2.

My first choice in silicones is the CR Laurence brand. Unfortunately it is difficult to find if you are not in the window business, but it can be found online. You might also find a local glass shop to order it in for you, but CR Laurence will not break up a box, and your local glass shop won't want to get stuck with a partial box. That makes minimum purchase probably well over $100 for a local supplier.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

As usual- it's pretty easy to agree with Pumilo. Ace silicone is cheap, easy to find, and has no mold inhibitors. I used GE II on my first viv out of ignorance, and my plants would not root to it. 

I've heard other people say GE II is fine, but this has not been my experience.


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## wriggles (Apr 5, 2014)

Broseph said:


> As usual- it's pretty easy to agree with Pumilo. Ace silicone is cheap, easy to find, and has no mold inhibitors. I used GE II on my first viv out of ignorance, and my plants would not root to it.
> 
> I've heard other people say GE II is fine, but this has not been my experience.


The clear Ace brand silicone I bought had mold inhibitors. Not sure if some do and some don't but the one I picked up did


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanks for the clarification, pumilio.

wriggles, it's my understanding that the mold inhibition is separate from organotins. I read in another thread that silicone can have mold inhibiting properties without being bad for the frogs. The organotin issue isn't related to mold inhibition. Can someone back me up on that?

Mark


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Another option (that I have been using lately) is ordering GE I from TrueValue if you have one nearby...

they usually don't stock it in store, but you can get it shipped to the store for free.

GE Silicone I All-Purpose Caulk, Black, 10.1-oz.: Model# GE312A : True Value Hardware Stores

I have one basically on my way home from the office, so I order it in advance and just swing by on the day I get my delivered email. Best part is that there is no minimum quantity like the other retailers that offer it online.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I went to our local Ace store today and every single one of the clear Ace brand silicones (5 or 6 of them) was described as "Mildew Resistant". Does anybody have a photo or link or model number for the kind without mold inhibitors?

Has anybody tried this stuff?...

Over The Edge - Silicone

It's just eight bucks for the caulk tube from that source.


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## Otter (Aug 31, 2014)

It has been difficult to read the labels would be great to see a photo of kinds that will work.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

zimmerj said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I'm no chem major but I can tell you that there is an FDA regulation regarding rubber coming in contact with food. I believe this is what you want to look for, that the silicone conforms to 21 CFR 177.2600. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and here is a link to that regulation: http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=177.2600
> 
> Here is a link to DAP silicone that meets the requirements of that regulation. If you look under product details, that's where it mentions this regulation: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0002YOVFO/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?ref_=pe_385040_121528360_TE_dp_1



That is in fact the food safe identifier and also the only stuff I use, it comes in a variety of colors to include black and brown/bronze which helps it blend better. I still let it cure for a good week, recently I learned that by exposing it to moisture can help cure it more quickly vs trying to dry cure it rapidly using heat and fans, not sure of the validity of this but it makes sense if compared to pretty much anything that needs to cure over time, I usually do the week long wait at room temp because no hurry is worth it lol


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

In a side note don't trust too much in the FDA, you would be surprised at the harmful chemicals that slide through any government agency FDA included if not explicitly lol I worked with USDA as a industrial mechanic (food industry) and can personally attest that nothing is perfect, only perfect intentions when it comes to chem safety on everything. Besides humans weigh 100-200 lbs on average (male/female) and can detox a lot more than something as small and fragile as a frog


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Here is the stuff I use and just as Pumilo says it will choke you out! I almost need a rebreather and goggles and that is with fans running and my (very large) exterior exhaust fan running as well! and since were on the subject this is the great stuff foam I use, its black, its pond and stone (fish safe) and did I mention its black? lol it is pricey though but it blends the right way and its pond safe so sold sold sold!










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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

What do you guys mean by plants taking root? Broms etc growing on the background well?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Wusserton said:


> Here is the stuff I use and ...


Thanks for posting this. I will look at the Dap next time and see if they have this one.


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

InvertaHerp said:


> What do you guys mean by plants taking root? Broms etc growing on the background well?


Vines and mosses I think


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## Otter (Aug 31, 2014)

Wusserton said:


> Here is the stuff I use and just as Pumilo says it will choke you out! I almost need a rebreather and goggles and that is with fans running and my (very large) exterior exhaust fan running as well! and since were on the subject this is the great stuff foam I use, its black, its pond and stone (fish safe) and did I mention its black? lol it is pricey though but it blends the right way and its pond safe so sold sold sold!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is great thank you for posting the pic.


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Wusserton said:


> Here is the stuff I use and just as Pumilo says it will choke you out! I almost need a rebreather and goggles and that is with fans running and my (very large) exterior exhaust fan running as well! and since were on the subject this is the great stuff foam I use, its black, its pond and stone (fish safe) and did I mention its black? lol it is pricey though but it blends the right way and its pond safe so sold sold sold!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads-up! Did not realize they make a pond version of it


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

zimmerj said:


> Thanks for the heads-up! Did not realize they make a pond version of it



Not only do they make a pond and stone version but its black! Warning though, its pricey, I never found it through my local hardware store, I buy mine over amazon.com and I have prime, still costs $14+ a can but its black! and it is fish safe pond and stone lol


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

Encyclia said:


> Thanks for the clarification, pumilio.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The dap brand I use molds like hell right off the bat, I usually let it mold for a good week after isos and springs are planted and than spray the hell out of everything with distilled water, wash it down to the substrate, let it sit for a while and put my frogs in, no more mold, mold itself is nothing more than a decomposer, its actually kinda healthy unless its a black mold but your standard white whispy stuff is quite harmless even though it freaks you out when you see it because its mold and everyone freaks out about mold lol bacterias can be good too, 99% of bacteria is good, 1% is bad and usually not found around you unless your handling raw chicken  basically if you plan patience, let things cure, go through the mold phase which always happens, you will be fine, just make sure you have the right layering in your substrate and you will be okay, every tank goes through a bio cycle, its the same with fish tanks, once you get it up and running it will be fine for years


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Haha you're right about that. I freaked out when I first saw mold in mine.

I just read something the other day that was pretty funny regarding parasite load in fecals. It said that parasites are going to exist naturally in small amounts and are perfectly healthy so if the lab doesn't find any, they aren't looking hard enough!


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

zimmerj said:


> Haha you're right about that. I freaked out when I first saw mold in mine.
> 
> I just read something the other day that was pretty funny regarding parasite load in fecals. It said that parasites are going to exist naturally in small amounts and are perfectly healthy so if the lab doesn't find any, they aren't looking hard enough!


yeah your gonna have things like mold and mushrooms and small parasites of sorts, hell I had a house spider in my vittatus tank the other day but after spraying it must have washed down to the floor and one of the frogs probably nailed it because it hasnt been back since lol people talk about dust mights on fruit cultures and god knows I have had em too but the fruits explode anyway so I dont worry too much, I did get some mite paper though which minimizes the problem


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## peiji (Sep 16, 2014)

I've been trying to research this quite a bit. I spent an hour going to all the hardware stores trying to find a black non-mildew product and ended up just coming home. Turns out, a lot of what I've read online say that there's no difference in the G.E. I and II in terms of mold protection. According to the company, there is mold protection in both products. They just couldn't label it for legal reasons. I'm still not clear on what I should buy or if I should just go with clear silicone G.E. I because that's what everyone claims is the best and then just paint the outside of the viv black to cover the great stuff.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

There is some good info from Ed in this thread... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/83985-ge-black-silicone-type-ii.html
(particularly in post #7)

I would try to track down some GE I if you can. If you have an Ace Hardware near you just use the link I put up earlier in the thread and you can have it delivered to the store for free.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

zimmerj said:


> Hi Mark,
> 
> I'm no chem major but I can tell you that there is an FDA regulation regarding rubber coming in contact with food. I believe this is what you want to look for, that the silicone conforms to 21 CFR 177.2600. Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong and here is a link to that regulation: CFR - Code of Federal Regulations Title 21
> 
> Here is a link to DAP silicone that meets the requirements of that regulation. If you look under product details, that's where it mentions this regulation: Dap 08642 Dow Corning Black Silicone Sealant 10.1-Ounce:Amazon:Home Improvement


DAP no longer offers the 21 CFR 177.2600, if you happen to find it in your local hardware store it is most likely old stock, the Amazon listing is NOT up to date and NOT correct! this must be a fairly recent change in DAP


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## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Wusserton said:


> DAP no longer offers the 21 CFR 177.2600, if you happen to find it in your local hardware store it is most likely old stock, the Amazon listing is NOT up to date and NOT correct! this must be a fairly recent change in DAP


If I remember correctly, last time I checked (which was at least a couple of months ago), I think Amazon did update it to remove that statement


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

No its still on there, I recieved 2 tubes today that are currently being returned, I double checked the amazon numbers and the DAP website and sure enough its no longer being offered with the 21 CFR 177.2600 code. my first/initial warning was that my local hardware store no longer carried it (bronze), I figured they were out of stock ...besides what do they care ...bronze to match door molding is all they care about not the food safety rating. So I ordered the food safe from amazon, received the opposite and after checking my order (numbers and all) and responding in the comment thread on Amazon everyone has this same issue, thats when I checked the actual DAP website and read the MSDS ...Amazon isn't up to date ...hell the tube isnt even the same lol


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Wusserton said:


> Not only do they make a pond and stone version but its black! Warning though, its pricey, I never found it through my local hardware store, I buy mine over amazon.com and I have prime, still costs $14+ a can but its black! and it is fish safe pond and stone lol


Every Ace Hardware in my area has the Pond and Stone Great Stuff for about $10 a can. I've even asked the managers and they can cut slight discounts if you order by the case. They also sell smaller tubes of aquarium safe silicone (say aquarium safe right on the label) but I usually go with the Ace brand silicone.


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

BrainBug said:


> Every Ace Hardware in my area has the Pond and Stone Great Stuff for about $10 a can. I've even asked the managers and they can cut slight discounts if you order by the case. They also sell smaller tubes of aquarium safe silicone (say aquarium safe right on the label) but I usually go with the Ace brand silicone.



I bought two cans at Menards (basically home depot but we have those too) for $7 a can!


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