# What species do you covet the most?



## AlexRible

So I was wondering..... If you had the opportunity to acquire a legal breeding pair of one of the following for free, what would it be?

D. lehmanni










D. Histrionicus










D. Mysteriosus









R. Benedicta









other, please limit to frogs that are not readily available in the hobby.


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## Brian Ferriera

My vote was for Benedicta because it is the only one out of all of them that if/when they are imported illegally will probably have the lest iffiness (as far as legality) that surounds them.
Brian


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## bobberly1

I said other, pumilio sound like the perfect frogs but I just don't have the money.  Can someone clarify why they illegalized these frogs? Doesn't seem logical.


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## afterdark

bobberly1 said:


> I said other, pumilio sound like the perfect frogs but I just don't have the money.  Can someone clarify why they illegalized these frogs? Doesn't seem logical.


I voted for the histros. They rock. 

**EDIT** Since I'm a little slow today, I removed my comment. Although, Brian and Alex were kind enough to quote my idiocy below.  Sorry bobberly!


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## Brian Ferriera

afterdark said:


> Hi bobberly1,
> 
> I'm not sure where you got your info, but pumilio are certainly not illegal. There are a number of morphs that have been brought in legally. Now, the money issue is a whole other ball of wax.
> 
> I voted for the histros. They rock.


He said he voted for other and that the other would be pumilio... 
Brian


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## AlexRible

afterdark said:


> Hi bobberly1,
> 
> I'm not sure where you got your info, but pumilio are certainly not illegal. There are a number of morphs that have been brought in legally. Now, the money issue is a whole other ball of wax.
> 
> I voted for the histros. They rock.


Good choice I picked histros too, they are my favorite. Tho Benedicta are a very close second.

As far as pumilio they certainly are not illegal, but a lot of morphs, such as "blue jeans" are not readily available so I will accept it.


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## bobberly1

I just meant which I covet the most, didn't know there was an illegal clause. Those hists look pretty awesome though.


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## hexentanz

Mysteriosus, though i can get them here. Do not shoot me.... :>


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## texasgoldbuyer

D. Mysteriosus would be my choice.


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## stemcellular

Def. mystis!


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## AlexRible

hexentanz said:


> Mysteriosus, though i can get them here. Do not shoot me.... :>


Consider your self shot down, your vote doesn't count im taking it down. JK lol 
Its just a poll, you could say green and black Auratus for all I care

Edit also just out of curiosity what would a pair of mysteriosus go for over there?


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## boogsawaste

Lehmanni! Of the red/black variety of course. A close second would be benedicta.

I would also like to add that I would kill for a white/black auratus. I posted up a couple of pics a fellow board member took of them and to me they are a future "must have", if they ever become available of course


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## JoshH

Benedicta is downright awesome! I would probably pick those, however in the end my choice would probably be lehmanni. They are what got me into the hobby back in the early '90s and I've wanted to try a pair ever since. God help my bank account if a pair ever pops up for sale, lol!


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## Jeremiah

I will be original and pick other. The bright green O. vicentei from dendrobase would be my pick.


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## AlexRible

Jeremiah said:


> I will be original and pick other. The bright green O. vicentei from dendrobase would be my pick.


I just had to look this frog up... what a great choice


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## Tim F

R. benedicta! I'm GUESSING that A) They'd do well in groups like other Ranitomeya sp., and that would make a spectacular display viv, and B) Breeding-wise, they'd be much easier to establish in the hobby than the others listed, which have already proven to be difficult.


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## markbudde

I really like the R. fulgurita 
Also, the Orange/Blue imitators are beautiful.


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## afterdark

markbudde said:


> Also, the *Orange/Blue imitators* are beautiful.


I couldn't resist posting that my deposit for these guys was cashed today. I don't think I could be more excited to be getting them!


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## Tim F

Actually, before R. benedicta, I'd go for it's imitator mimic!! Now those are sweeeeet!! Plus, imho, as thumbs go, imis are the boldest!


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## Tim F

markbudde said:


> Also, the Orange/Blue imitators are beautiful.


Yeah! that's what I'm talkin' about.


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## Jeremiah

AlexRible said:


> I just had to look this frog up... what a great choice


Thats a great looking vicentei, but I was talking about this one  :

http://www.dendrobase.com/fotos/OophagaVicentei/DVicentei014800_edith_peschel.jpg


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## Brian Ferriera

Jeremiah said:


> Thats a great looking vicentei, but I was talking about this one  :
> 
> http://www.dendrobase.com/fotos/OophagaVicentei/DVicentei014800_edith_peschel.jpg


Damn thats nice. Can i say damn???
Brian


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## Julio

Jeremiah, those are crazy!!!

My vote goes for Lehmani


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## zBrinks

I voted for histos; the red/black variety with the white toes. R. benedicta are a close second, but seeing as they are in Canada now, it's only a matter of time before they make it stateside, if they aren't here already.


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## MonarchzMan

I picked O. lehmanni, but there are so many that'd be cool to have. Ameerega flavopicta, R. benedicta, A. silverstonei, R. bombetes, R. flavovittata, Adelphobates captivus, O. arborea, O. histrionica, O. pumilio, O. speciosa, "Flaming" O. syvatica, O. vincenti, R. imitator "Orange-headed"

You can't honestly chose just one. It's just not possible.


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## edward

R. benedicta are available in Canada now.
My pick would be R. sirensis as all the others you can get in Europe.


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## nish07

My dream frogs are sylvatica Lita and Esmaralda. I'll be getting these down the line at some point.

-Nish


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## hexentanz

AlexRible said:


> Edit also just out of curiosity what would a pair of mysteriosus go for over there?


Froglets are 60 euro each, so i imagine a breeding pair would be around 70 each.


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## Shockfrog

I guess any former Colostethus that I don't already have would do just fine for me.

Especially interested in A. rubriventris, A. altamazonica, H. nexipus and many others though


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## somecanadianguy

for me regardless of value or rarity its simply blue jean pums ,i have alwas loved these and would want them more than any other
craig


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## Ed Holder

Well i would have to go with Fantasticus, Although those Histis and Mystis are amazing looking frogs. What are Lehmanni? Looks like a banded Luec to me.

Ed


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## AlexRible

Ed Holder said:


> Well i would have to go with Fantasticus, Although those Histis and Mystis are amazing looking frogs. What are Lehmanni? Looks like a banded Luec to me.
> 
> Ed


What are lehmanni! :0 
lehmanni are egg feeders just like Histrionicus and pumilio. Also they are now considered the most endangered dart frog in Colombia


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## MonarchzMan

They come in many different color variants, too. Blue, red, yellow, orange, etc.


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## Jeremiah

MonarchzMan said:


> They come in many different color variants, too. Blue, red, yellow, orange, etc.


Hmm, I thought they just came in red/orange/yellow>? Got a link to a pic of the others?



Here is one of my favorite pics of histo's, I wanna pair of each  :


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## Android1313

Hmm... tough choices, but I went with Lehmanni. I have a coffee cup that I bought about 20 years ago that has a Lehmanni on it, that shows the frogs color when you put a hot drink in it. It is very cool, and even before I bought it Ive wanted a pair of Lehmanni.. So Lehmanni it is!


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## MonarchzMan

Jeremiah said:


> Hmm, I thought they just came in red/orange/yellow>? Got a link to a pic of the others?


I'm going to have to search. I swear I've seen pictures of blue lehmanni, but it's possible that I'm mistaking them for blue histrionicus.


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## AlexRible

MonarchzMan said:


> I'm going to have to search. I swear I've seen pictures of blue lehmanni, but it's possible that I'm mistaking them for blue histrionicus.


I have heard rumors of blue lehmanni That someone was selling them at the hamburg show in germany. Tho it could be very easily confused with a blue Histrionicus.


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## pigface

My fantacy frog at the moment would be the caramel and blue Histrionicus the "striped-paterned-bullseye" morph http://dendrobatenwelt.mschlenzig.de/Bilder/2408.jpg or spotted morph. Either or I'm not choosey . Followed by the mistys .

I'm suprised no one mentioned Vanzolinis yet .


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## bgcabot

Somehow I missed the 'Other' option, so I think I voted for Mysteriosus; but funny you should mention Vanzolinii, that is the frog I really want!


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## rjmarchisi

I have a hunch that vanzolinii will not be all that rare/unavailable in the coming years in the US.

rob


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## wimpy

I chose other. My dream choice is kind of lame compared to all the others but I'd like to eventually get a 1.1 yellow terriblis. I know that it's not a flashy choice like the others but with the skewed sex ratios (I've been quoted approx. 14-1 male to female) I don't know if it's luck that people get a pair or if they buy 10-15 frogs to get a pair but at the moment I can't justify it with my common sense ( I work for GM ) to buy that many. At generally $125. a froglet (I know, I know, Sports_Doc's had them at a fire sale price $75.) they might as well be Histo's to me until I find out about my work situation. It would be nice to have a pair of frogs that (besides my Tinc's) that would be bolder and hungrier than my others. The only frog that I have that like that now is a female Intermedius that looks like a grape and almost climbs into the food container. 

After the Terribs. though, I can't wait for the _R. Benedicta or the V_icentei that Jeremiah showed a pic of to possibly become available. Wow!


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## nish07

Vincentis are interesting and a few morphs are spectacular but unfortunately they're difficult to capture without cutting down trees. I'd like to see some in the hobby but atm they're all smuggled as far as I know. Maybe someone will get papers for them some day and pull some down from a tree without cutting it down. Till then I'll wait.

-Nish

P.S. If anyone is working with Litas or Esmaraldas and would like to let me know how they're doing, feel free to pm me -_-



wimpy said:


> I chose other. My dream choice is kind of lame compared to all the others but I'd like to eventually get a 1.1 yellow terriblis. I know that it's not a flashy choice like the others but with the skewed sex ratios (I've been quoted approx. 14-1 male to female) I don't know if it's luck that people get a pair or if they buy 10-15 frogs to get a pair but at the moment I can't justify it with my common sense ( I work for GM ) to buy that many. At generally $125. a froglet (I know, I know, Sports_Doc's had them at a fire sale price $75.) they might as well be Histo's to me until I find out about my work situation. It would be nice to have a pair of frogs that (besides my Tinc's) that would be bolder and hungrier than my others. The only frog that I have that like that now is a female Intermedius that looks like a grape and almost climbs into the food container.
> 
> After the Terribs. though, I can't wait for the _R. Benedicta or the V_icentei that Jeremiah showed a pic of to possibly become available. Wow!


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## housevibe7

I voted for histrionicus... most specifically the white and red "koi" type
http://dartfrog.tk/uploads/images/Dendrobates/histrionicus/sb-koi3727.jpg
That or the orange and red bullseye sylv.


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## nish07

Just to jump back in here with a pic...











One day...

-Nish


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## MonarchzMan

nish07 said:


> Vincentis are interesting and a few morphs are spectacular but unfortunately they're difficult to capture without cutting down trees. I'd like to see some in the hobby but atm they're all smuggled as far as I know. Maybe someone will get papers for them some day and pull some down from a tree without cutting it down. Till then I'll wait.
> 
> -Nish
> 
> P.S. If anyone is working with Litas or Esmaraldas and would like to let me know how they're doing, feel free to pm me -_-


Vincenti are mostly in trees? I thought that that was just arborea? From what I've read, Vincenti are virtually indistinguishable from Pumilio where they overlap, which would indicate to me that they're more terrestrial?


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## markpulawski

Yes Vincentei are mostly in trees and very difficult to collect, unless as was said cut the trees down. Atlanta Botanical had 3 or 4 vincentei working with the Amphibian Ark Panama project. They were unable to locate any more than they had and unfortunately unable to pair up a couple of single animals. They did a have a pair of one morph that many folks saw when frog day was at ABG, they were as I remember not a very spectacular green and black morph.


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## melissa68

Honestly - none of them. 

There are other breeders out there that should get those frogs before I do. Once they get established in the hobby I would consider owning them, but not until then. 

Why???? Because I respect them too much and would have a hard time loosing such a beautiful/wonderful creature. There are other breeders/hobbyists who are more successful than I am with egg feeders & obligates. 

These are not frogs that should go to the highest bidder but to the hobbyists - breeders with the most skill. 

Wish there was a none on the poll - because not everyone "HAS" to own the rare frogs - or have any desire to until they are established. 

Just my 2 cents...


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## AlexRible

^^ melissa- This poll was just for fun, Im not suggesting that everyone try to get these frogs. As much as I love Histrionicus, I think if someone gave me a pair, I would have to give them to the baltimore aquarium or someone with similar experiences.


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## melissa68

I realize that. But there are always people out there who try to get the rarest ones - because it is cool & they just have to have them.

Sorry I came across so strong, but it is a pet peeve. Seen too many people pay a ton of money for these guys only to kill them. Or, they get them, don't take care of them right and try to resell them for what they paid for them and no one will touch them because they are days away from death.

So, like I said, if I had the opportunity to own any of them - I would pass, or let a friend know they were available and help them get them.

They are pretty, but I wouldn't want to have them.





AlexRible said:


> ^^ melissa- This poll was just for fun, Im not suggesting that everyone try to get these frogs. As much as I love Histrionicus, I think if someone gave me a pair, I would have to give them to the baltimore aquarium or someone with similar experiences.


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## ChrisK

I found histrionicus to be pretty hardy and happy frogs, although I mighta gotten lucky at the time by doing certain things right by mistake like putting them in a large tank, the right conditions and stuff, they were pretty active and good eaters, they didn't breed for me though, I think I mighta not had a female because there was always tons of quacking going on (that's seriously what they sound like, it's hilarious), no fighting or aggression or anything that I saw though, I wouldn't hesitate to try them again if they were still around. 

So yeah those vicentei are one I would like , wouldn't want them dangerously collected and imported in bad health though


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## somecanadianguy

melissa68 said:


> Honestly - none of them.
> 
> There are other breeders out there that should get those frogs before I do. Once they get established in the hobby I would consider owning them, but not until then.
> 
> Why???? Because I respect them too much and would have a hard time loosing such a beautiful/wonderful creature. There are other breeders/hobbyists who are more successful than I am with egg feeders & obligates.
> 
> These are not frogs that should go to the highest bidder but to the hobbyists - breeders with the most skill.
> 
> Wish there was a none on the poll - because not everyone "HAS" to own the rare frogs - or have any desire to until they are established.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...


very well said i agree 
craig


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## almazan

Green granuliferous' are at the top of my list


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## salix

Well, I picked something from the list, just to participate in the poll, but I see I need to contact almazan 

If I named what I really covet, it would be Retics and Escudo.


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## yours

Orange R. imitator tarapoto's 

D. Imitator/Intermedius


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## Ed

AlexRible said:


> So I was wondering..... If you had the opportunity to acquire a legal breeding pair of one of the following for free, what would it be?


There are legal histrionicus in the hobby so I'm not sure why this was posed if you could aquire a legal breeding pair.... 

None of those... 
I would be interested in some species I have wanted for really long time 
Gastrotheca cornuta 
Rhinoderma darwinii 

Female Atelopus spumarius hoogmoedi


Ed


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## markpulawski

Right on with the Darwin's frog Ed, I made a trade years ago in which i was supposed to get some of those back, 11 years later still waiting....mine were going to go to the cool room at the Cincy Zoo.
I would have to say that Sirensis or Bombetes would top my list with yellow Lehmanni following those. Farm raised environment sustaining frogs would be Veradero Imitator and Benedicta, both of which will be available next year from Understory.


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## AlexRible

Ed said:


> There are legal histrionicus in the hobby so I'm not sure why this was posed if you could aquire a legal breeding pair...
> Ed


Hey Ed
Yeah I know that there are still a few hanging around, but even if you could find some Im sure that they would cost an arm, a leg and a left ear....


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## McBobs

What the hell? I think there's something wrong with my computer as it wont let me check all the boxes to vote... What am i doing wrong? 

-Matt


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## markpulawski

almazan said:


> Green granuliferous' are at the top of my list


There are also blue Granuliferous, I saw them years ago at the Aquarium of the America's. Ian Hiler was working with them, Ian was probably the best frog breeder i ever met. I believe he is also the reason aquariums can keep jelly fish alive in display's due to his design work, now there's a guy worthy of a chat forum!!!


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## Obliv79

D. Mysteriosus
They just catch my eye everytime a see a picture of one.


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## Brian Ferriera

markpulawski said:


> t sustaining frogs would be Veradero Imitator and Benedicta, both of which will be available next year from Understory.


Mark are these the ones thier calling Jeribos imitator in Europe??
Brian


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> There are also blue Granuliferous, I saw them years ago at the Aquarium of the America's. Ian Hiler was working with them, Ian was probably the best frog breeder i ever met. I believe he is also the reason aquariums can keep jelly fish alive in display's due to his design work, now there's a guy worthy of a chat forum!!!


Did you see his talk at the one IAD? He was also at the very last IAD. 

Ed


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## Ed

AlexRible said:


> Hey Ed
> Yeah I know that there are still a few hanging around, but even if you could find some Im sure that they would cost an arm, a leg and a left ear....


There are also legal cb histrionicus in the hobby... and yes if you got through the waiting list they are expensive (and no I don't have any). 

Ed


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## markpulawski

Brian Ferriera said:


> Mark are these the ones thier calling Jeribos imitator in Europe??
> Brian


Veradero are the imitators with the bright metalic orange heads with mostly stripes, there have been quite a few pics of them around (they are in the wooden box in the smuggling article). I am not sure what the Jeribo's are, I do know a lot of Europeans did use the common name Veradero so perhaps it is a different morph.


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## nish07

I saw an article on the web where they seemed to be used interchangeably. The Jeberos (the term Mark Pepper uses) imitators are going to be here next year and they are very nice looking.

-Nish


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## siples

I do agree with Melissas statements on ownership, while I have kept and bred frogs for many years I think the stress on me owning them might kill me before the frogs!!! I have 3 Matechos and I am constantly keeping an eye on them even though they are thriving just paranoia I guess. I have always the white foot histros were unbelievable. The red marbled body with the white feet is fantastic. I had agreat picture once now I can't find it.
Kieth


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## rmelancon

markpulawski said:


> There are also blue Granuliferous, I saw them years ago at the Aquarium of the America's. Ian Hiler was working with them, Ian was probably the best frog breeder i ever met. I believe he is also the reason aquariums can keep jelly fish alive in display's due to his design work, now there's a guy worthy of a chat forum!!!


Yeah, those were really nice frogs. They never did much for him though from what I remember.

As far as jellyfish, he had some crazy stuff going on at the offsite breeding warehouse. I never knew there were so many different kinds.


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## rmelancon

Hyalinobatrachium valerioi

A really small glass frog. I only have some blurry pix I took with my phone but they are unreal.


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## 013

I hope o. vicentei become legally available in the future. A very variable coloured frog. And every treefroglover's wet dream: Agalychnis calcarifer...


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## frogparty

Gotta vote for the vanzolinii. I wouls say standard lamasi, butI will be getting a pair as soon as their tank is better established ( hopefully from darren meyer) I saw these in person at the reptile expo and they are just so awesome, they have racing stripes! I hope the vanzolinii are going to be available soon. I would really love to get a pair of those!


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## markpulawski

Ed said:


> Did you see his talk at the one IAD? He was also at the very last IAD.
> 
> Ed


I travel so much for my job, leaving the house for frog event would not be fair to my boys. I going to make a real effort to get to one in the next couple of years.


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## Ed

I understand.. Ian was talking to a number of people about replacing some of his collection after the hurricane. 

Ed


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## colb

Histros get my vote for sure! There are so many fascinating varieties. I don't know how many of you have the book Jewels Of The Rainforest, but there is a great chapter in there about these frogs with tons of beautifully wonderful photos!


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## Marinarawr

Not that either species is within the realm of possibility for me.... but I couldn't decide between R. benedicta and histrionicus 'Sylvatica Narina'. I guess I'm a sucker for the red/blue combo.


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## Christer

Pumilio. Lots of beautiful morphs. Same here as with Hexentanz, guess I´m lucky to have D.mysteriosus not too far away and available.


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## aquascott

red yellow and black sylvatica

www.dendrobatenwelt.de


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## aquascott

look at these guys pumilo colors and large size


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## Marinarawr

aquascott said:


> look at these guys pumilo colors and large size


*faint* That's the one that I saw described as histrionicus 'Sylvatica Narina'. I don't know if there are any other names for it out there but it's *epic*.


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## Rich Frye

Tough one to find.

Koi histos (post 77) a very close second...


Rich


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## Rich Frye

...also been called "whitefoot" .

Rich


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## skylsdale

Rich Frye said:


> Tough one to find.


I've got a couple D. auratus that look nearly identical. They don't fetch the same prices, though. Maybe if I add "Oophaga" to the name...


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## Estrato

Wow those D. Mysteriosus look amazing. Whats the deal with those? Why arent they available here?


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## Rich Frye

You have a group of auratus that look like blue histos? I'd love to see a pic of those.

Rich




skylsdale said:


> I've got a couple D. auratus that look nearly identical. They don't fetch the same prices, though. Maybe if I add "Oophaga" to the name...


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## Brian Ferriera

Estrato said:


> Wow those D. Mysteriosus look amazing. Whats the deal with those? Why arent they available here?


Please do a search on them..you should run into many bickering' about them..
Brian


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## skylsdale

Rich Frye said:


> You have a group of auratus that look like blue histos? I'd love to see a pic of those.


The banding isn't as uniform, but...


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## Rich Frye

Very nice, interesting looking auratus. I'm not sure I would mistake them for histos, but very cool . How bold are they?

Rich



skylsdale said:


> The banding isn't as uniform, but...


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## skylsdale

Rich Frye said:


> Very nice, interesting looking auratus. I'm not sure I would mistake them for histos, but very cool . How bold are they?


Obviously not identical given body shape, etc. 

They tend to be fairly shy in their behavior...definitely not out and about regardless of what's going on outside their enclosure.


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## Brian Ferriera

I have to say I am not an auratus fan but I really like them...
Brian


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## AlexRible

Hey Ron
Those are some nice looking auratus you have there! I have never really seen them with that grey banding before.

I must say the results of this poll have surprised me. I thought that lehmanni would be the clear front runner. Then maybe Benedicta and then maybe Histrionicus. I never would have guessed that Mysteriosus would be so popular either.


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## Brian Ferriera

AlexRible said:


> Hey Ron
> Those are some nice looking auratus you have there! I have never really seen them with that grey banding before.
> 
> I must say the results of this poll have surprised me. I thought that lehmanni would be the clear front runner. Then maybe Benedicta and then maybe Histrionicus. I never would have guessed that Mysteriosus would be so popular either.


People always want what they cant have 
Brian


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## markbudde

What's the allure of lehmanni? The look pretty similar to leucs, and apparently have to be kept individually very large terraria (thus making poor terrarium inhabitants)?


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## Brian Ferriera

markbudde said:


> What's the allure of lehmanni? The look pretty similar to leucs, and apparently have to be kept individually very large terraria (thus making poor terrarium inhabitants)?


You really have to seem them to appreciate them..they look similar ..Well the yellow ones do but the red ones don't...but they don't really don't act and move like one.. They kind of crawl....hard to explain. But i think 90% of the reason people like them is because thier rare..
Brian


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## Rich Frye

dupe. post


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## Rich Frye

Brian Ferriera said:


> People always want what they cant have
> Brian


...many more people have mysteriosus, _both_ in the EU and over here, than many would guess...


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## Brian Ferriera

Rich Frye said:


> ...many more people have mysteriosus, _both_ in the EU and over here, than many would guess...


Yea thier also the people who are in it for nothing but the greed of it and who could give a rats butt that their supporting smuggling because they ether turn a blind eye to it or they just don't care as long they have what they want....thier is no frog that is unattainable out their provided you now who the smugglers are and have the check book to back it up...When I said that it was directed at the normal every day frog who has a conscience and who cares enough about this hobby to lust over a frog but who wont get it until their brought in legally if and when that ever happens.
Brian


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## AlexRible

markbudde said:


> What's the allure of lehmanni? The look pretty similar to leucs, and apparently have to be kept individually very large terraria (thus making poor terrarium inhabitants)?


It is true that they can look similar to leucs, I know that red lehmanni pattern can vary from solid red, to red banded, to red with black web like Histrionicus. So I assume the yellow and the orange do too. I also don't quite get it, but like brian said they are rare and also endangered. I have even heard them being referred to as the holy grail of dart frogs.....


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## Rich Frye

Not so sure that it comes down to greed so much. As it is (guessing, don't plan on having any illegal frogs) pretty hard to sell a mysty over here. I'm not saying it can't happen, but the price of a frog you absolutely would have the highest chance of having F+W break down your front door about can't be all that appealing to the masses. And mysties are not that beautiful , in my opinion , when compared to other frogs we have here that are legal. They also apparently breed like auratus so if and when they would ever be made legal over here the price would have to be very affordable very soon.

Rich


Brian Ferriera said:


> Yea thier also the people who are in it for nothing but the greed of it and who could give a rats butt that their supporting smuggling because they ether turn a blind eye to it or they just don't care as long they have what they want....thier is no frog that is unattainable out their provided you now who the smugglers are and have the check book to back it up...When I said that it was directed at the normal every day frog who has a conscience and who cares enough about this hobby to lust over a frog but who wont get it until their brought in legally if and when that ever happens.
> Brian


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## Brian Ferriera

Rich Frye said:


> Not so sure that it comes down to greed so much. As it is (guessing, don't plan on having any illegal frogs) pretty hard to sell a mysty over here. I'm not saying it can't happen, but the price of a frog you absolutely would have the highest chance of having F+W break down your front door about can't be all that appealing to the masses. And mysties are not that beautiful , in my opinion , when compared to other frogs we have here that are legal. They also apparently breed like auratus so if and when they would ever be made legal over here the price would have to be very affordable very soon.
> 
> Rich


So if its not greed why do people want them??? It cant be anything but greed..
Brian


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## Rich Frye

Possibly for the same reason an illicit art collector would acquire a stolen Monet. Wanting to have something of beauty that is not legal.
There is much more money to be made off crazy rare legal frogs than the few illegal ones.

Rich



Brian Ferriera said:


> So if its not greed why do people want them??? It cant be anything but greed..
> Brian


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## Brian Ferriera

Rich Frye said:


> Possibly for the same reason an illicit art collector would acquire a stolen Monet. Wanting to have something of beauty that is not legal.
> There is much more money to be made off crazy rare legal frogs than the few illegal ones.
> 
> Rich


If this is really the case why is it done then??? If people could make more money off of legal rare frogs then smuggling then it would not be done..
Brian


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## Rich Frye

Let me put it this way. It is my belief that a 100% legal histo, will fetch much more than a 100% illegal (which they all are over here) mysty. I'm sure I could find out the going price of a mysty over in the EU and it would also be much less than histo morphs over there. I, for example, would not take a mysty if it were given to me.
Sometimes people want something , and have absolutely zero interest in making money off it. They just want it.

Rich



Brian Ferriera said:


> If this is really the case why is it done then??? If people could make more money off of legal rare frogs then smuggling then it would not be done..
> Brian


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## Rich Frye

And I belive it was Ed that posted the #1 confiscated dart has been reported as auratus. Not exactly the biggest money fetcher of all time.

Rich




Brian Ferriera said:


> If this is really the case why is it done then??? If people could make more money off of legal rare frogs then smuggling then it would not be done..
> Brian


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## Julio

that brins up another point though if you are in this hobby to make money then you are in it for the wrong reasons!!


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## Rich Frye

On a side note it is funny what drive many people's interest to own certain darts. Rare seems to be one of the biggest things. I have wanted a few species , waited, only to find the frog was skittish and turned out to be a frog I never saw and therefore never enjoyed. Most of us are simply looking at pics of cool looking frogs , without even knowing how they will act in our vivs.
I like to ask how a frog acts before I work with it.

Rich


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## jubjub47

I think that there may be a lot of people that would keep them that are just collectors. I kind of liken it to my aunt who will collect anything that she likes regardless of the value. I can't figure out why, but she has collected every Mcdonalds happy meal toy released for the past 15 years. She literally has a room full of them and they have no value at all.


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## Brian Ferriera

Rich Frye said:


> And I belive it was Ed that posted the #1 confiscated dart has been reported as auratus. Not exactly the biggest money fetcher of all time.
> 
> Rich


When the frog can be collected in huge quantities then its more then worth your while to smuggle it..if you can smuggle 100 aurtus and get the same price as 1 lehmanii then its worth it.... to some people...
Brian


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## Brian Ferriera

Rich Frye said:


> Let me put it this way. It is my belief that a 100% legal histo, will fetch much more than a 100% illegal (which they all are over here) mysty. I'm sure I could find out the going price of a mysty over in the EU and it would also be much less than histo morphs over there. I, for example, would not take a mysty if it were given to me.
> Sometimes people want something , and have absolutely zero interest in making money off it. They just want it.
> 
> Rich


Im sorry but how many legal histo's do you really think are out thier..most have been smuglled to europe and then they get papper work on them to send over here and people try to pass them off as a legale frog.

Brian


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## Rich Frye

I think this may be getting a bit off tangent.
Yes, I am sure that greed fuels the fire of most smuggled frogs.
I doubt this is the thread to go into all the aspects of how all of the frogs in our hobby (90% of which are in our hobby have questionable origins...) got here.

Rich


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## frogparty

So rich, how bold are your std lamasi?


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## Rich Frye

Very, see them all the time.

Rich



frogparty said:


> So rich, how bold are your std lamasi?


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## frogparty

THANKS! I am on a wait list for some, can't wait to get 'em


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## Dendro Dave

A prayer:

GOD... I hope benedicta breed like rabbits....god i love those, best looking frog i've seen. I think the only way they could be cooler is if the black on the back always made the shape of the naked mud flap lady, or the silouett of another hot girl  And they had 2 white feet, and 2 flourecent green feet and some purple mixed in with the blue and black reticulation on the legs. Ya...i think that will do it 

Amen,
Sincerely
Dave


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## frogparty

those benedicta are sweet alright, but I think I like the veradero imis better.
Now if I could get "mudflap girl " benedicta, that would be a different story


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## Blackbird

Voted _other_, if there is one frog I that I wish was legal and well established in the hobby it would definitely be Ranitomeya bombetes...
Not that I'd acutally buy them right now - if they were established - if they weren't pretty hardy frogs.  But one day? Sure.


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## Marinarawr

Dendro Dave said:


> A prayer:
> 
> GOD... I hope benedicta breed like rabbits....god i love those, best looking frog i've seen. I think the only way they could be cooler is if the black on the back always made the shape of the naked mud flap lady, or the silouett of another hot girl  And they had 2 white feet, and 2 flourecent green feet and some purple mixed in with the blue and black reticulation on the legs. Ya...i think that will do it
> 
> Amen,
> Sincerely
> Dave



I'm not really into girls but..... Aw what the hell. "Ditto!"


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## frogparty

Just saw some pics of flavovittata, I like more tha vanzolinii


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## jackxc925

fulgurita or sirensis are my favorite of the ranitomeyas


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## Arklier

Vanzolinii would get my vote. I know there are animals with papers in the US, but I don't know if they were laundered through Europe or not. For now, I'll just have to be content with my painted one:


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## rpmurphey

My pick has to be ranitomeyas sirensis


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## UmbraSprite

So many cool frogs out there....

I will vote for sylvatica myself. There are a ton of great thumbs hiding out in the forest though.


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## NathanB

Ameerega pongoensis for me
www.DendroBase.de


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## troy255

Definitely D. Mysteriosus for me.


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## Ziggi

My vote is for benedicta.


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## Marinarawr

I was on the fence for quite a long time between White Foot histrionicus and benedicta but I think I've decided on R. benedicta in my number one slot now. Sirensis is tied for second with 'White Foot' histrionicus (otherwise known as 'Koi' sylvatica), and number three being Standard lamasi (those green 'Puerto Inca lamasi can be tied for third place though ). To tell you the truth, if I didn't already have azureus, then they'd be in my top three .


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## alluringeli

I think I would want them all lol they all look like cool frogs to have....


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## dendrobateobsessd

I'd have to vote amereeage cainarachi, such a stunning frog.


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## kingnicky101

Histo is the way to go! I love histos, but I wouldn't mind having all the ones mentioned. lol


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## maximusdendrob8

Hmmm...Dendrobates reticulatus I think.


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## Peter Keane

Of the four choices listed... I voted for lehmanni.. as they are the most difficult to breed and offer the most challenge.. The last batch I know of that came into this country was several years ago within an Amazonian tropical fish shipment (not very legal).


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## fishdoc

I covet them all. What was the purple frog they found last year....I can remember other than it was georgeous and I kept the name handy in case I ever saw some listed...I don't think they are protected...OK, had to go look it up on Reuters: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A purple fluorescent frog is one of 24 new species found in the South American highlands of Suriname, conservationists reported on Monday, warning that these creatures are threatened by illegal gold mining.


Can I add this to the list??? Any ideas if any are moving into the trade??


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## lamaster

R. Benedicta were always on my list I would love to get some legal imports one day.


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## chivers

Difficult choice but I went with the D. Mysteriosus. All are spectacular.


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## trow

None I have enough mantella's


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## fleshfrombone

I've seen mystys in Europe. They're pretty amazing but I voted for lehmanni. Even rarer than histos and you always want what you can't have.


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## jackxc925

Well I change mine to veradero imis. and standard lamasi


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## JoshH

For me it will always be lehmanni, but I equally like the green morph of Atelopus varius too.....


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