# Normal Behavior or Sick Frog?



## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I have looked at some other threads and I am not sure if my leuc is sick or not. She has been sitting in the water all day for 2 days now. She was fine before that, spending lots of time sitting with the male under a leaf. He was calling to her the night before the behaviour started. She did come out of the water last night to sleep on top of a leaf, but was back in after the light came on. Is she trying to rid herself of toxins or is she getting ready to lay eggs? The male is eating and acting normally. The only change has been a new plant (not toxic) and that I have been misting slightly less the past few days (a recommendation from LLL Reptile employee). Have misted more today and last night. Any advice is appreciated, I am worried about her.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I always know when my leucs just laid because theyll be soaking in there pond. Never for two days though, but have you checkd for eggs.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't see anything in the water. I wouldn't think she would be back in the water today if she laid them elsewhere last night.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Usually leucs would lay in the leaf litter or a big smooth leaf if theres no petri dish.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I've looked around, but there are some hiding spots I can't see very well. I don't see anything obvious. I'm not sure if there are any vets in my area that see PDFs. I don't know what to do for her. She did not eat today, not even her favorite rice flour beetle larvae.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Have you been useing supplements and how often?


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I haven't been, I was told when I got them that it wasn't needed. Now, after reading some posts, I realize that I should have been giving them something. I feel so bad. They were underweight when I got them and they have done so well up until now. I have calcium supplement for my bearded dragon, don't know if that will work, or if I need something else.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I would get some repashy calcium plus asap. Just out of curiosity who told you they didnt need supplements.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

There is a store here called "Triple L" LLL Reptile. When I was buying fruit flies for the first time, I asked about supplements, and was told by an employee that they were not needed. I hope I can find the Repashy you mentioned in one of the stores.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

The employee you spoke to dosent know what hes talking about. I dont know if that LLL place has repashy products but there are several vendors on DB who do. If you dont wanna wait on shipping petco has it. Theres a gecko on the picture but its perfect for frogs.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

Good to know, I don't want to wait to get them started on it. If she is not eating though, it isn't going to help her. Is there anything I can put into the water? Have you ever heard of this before? I have only had them for 6 months now, but I am so attached to them. I would be devastated if she died. Thanks for your help by the way.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

What is the humidity like?It sounds like she's trying to hydrate.I would mist as usual(I don't know why they would tell you to cut back).Maybe more if needed.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I cut back briefly on the misting because my some of my plants were dying, I think from over misting. I was told if the soil was damp to the touch then to only mist once or twice a day for the frogs. I have gone back to my normal misting routine because I thought maybe she was dehydrated (plus I'm not comfortable misting that little). I would think after sitting in the water for 2 days now, that she would be well hydrated.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Do you have a drainage layer,leaf litter and all that good stuff?Pics may help too if you can post some.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Nice job with the help out Scoy  

At the moment I can't think of a good suggestion ( though getting a fecal test might be wise) but I wanted to let you know Kees Zoo that you are in a good city for PDF keepers. You might contact DB member Dane who is in San Diego. He also is a sponsor on DB Jungle Box Online - Frogs, Vivarium Supplies, Feeders and Tropical Plants

In March Microcosm is happening in San Diego, a great opportunity to learn from some of the best in the county! 
MICROCOSM 2014

Best, 
Sally


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I do have a drainage layer. Some leaf litter, some moss, and lots of little hide spots under a log. Maybe I need more leaf littler? Sally, thanks for letting me know about DB member Dane. I will take all the help I can get. I tried to upload some pics, but they exceed the max size requirements.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

Here are some photos, not necessarily the greatest for viewing there vivarium, but the best I have right now. Kahlua is the female that is under the leaf in one of the pics. That was the night before she started sitting in the water.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

srrrio said:


> Nice job with the help out Scoy
> 
> You might contact DB member Dane who is in San Diego. He also is a sponsor on DB Jungle Box Online - Frogs, Vivarium Supplies, Feeders and Tropical Plants
> 
> ...


How can I contact him?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Do you have a way to measure the humidity? Also, what kind of top do you have on the exo terra?


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

kee's zoo said:


> How can I contact him?


You could contact him through the website via email. Or send him a private message on here.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Absolutely need a bit more leaf litter (A couple of inches thick).That won't be the problem but Is something I would address.It gives a place for springtails and isopods to hide(hopefully you have some of them too) and as the leaves decompose they (the bugs)will eat it as well.I was going to ask what kind of top you had too.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I have a screen top, which I know isn't recommended, but I am home pretty much all day and mist them a few times. I've not had a problem maintaining humidity, the male likes to call sometimes after I mist them. I do not have anything to measure the specific humity level. Sally, I don't know how to send someone a message on DB.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I have screen tops on all my exos,but I have glass that just rests on top so I can slide it to allow as much or as little air to flow through.I find this time of year the house gets a bit dry with the heat kicking on all the time so I keep the humidity in by sliding the glass to cover most of the top.When the house is less dry I slide the glass to give it more screen.A lot of people silicone the glass in place with a fixed screen vent,but I like the ability to adjust it as I see fit.

To PM someone,directly under their name(on any post they have done) You will find a drop down tab that will give you a couple of options.One of them is to pm this member.Click that and you can write them that way.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

kee's zoo said:


> I have a screen top, which I know isn't recommended, but I am home pretty much all day and mist them a few times.


I would suggest for a quick humidity fix...snapping off the exo fixture, wrapping the entire lid in Saran Wrap, then snap it back on.

While doing that.... measure your two screen sections, shoot me those dimensions, and I will send you some glass panels to drop in. Should only be a couple bucks via flat rate envelope.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I will send you a pm...to give you some practice (-:


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

Should I make her get out of the water at night?I don't want her to get cold. The vivarium doesn't get any colder than 68 F, but not sure about water temp.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

oddlot said:


> I have screen tops on all my exos,but I have glass that just rests on top so I can slide it to allow as much or as little air to flow through.I find this time of year the house gets a bit dry with the heat kicking on all the time so I keep the humidity in by sliding the glass to cover most of the top.When the house is less dry I slide the glass to give it more screen.A lot of people silicone the glass in place with a fixed screen vent,but I like the ability to adjust it as I see fit.
> 
> To PM someone,directly under their name(on any post they have done) You will find a drop down tab that will give you a couple of options.One of them is to pm this member.Click that and you can write them that way.


Thanks for the advice on both things. The heat has been kicking on in the morning.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

randommind said:


> While doing that.... measure your two screen sections, shoot me those dimensions, and I will send you some glass panels to drop in. Should only be a couple bucks via flat rate envelope.


That would be great! All the downstairs pets are sleeping, so I'll measure in the morning when it's light. Thank you and everyone.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

kee's zoo said:


> Should I make her get out of the water at night?I don't want her to get cold. The vivarium doesn't get any colder than 68 F, but not sure about water temp.


No if she's in there,she wants to be for a reason.Besides unless you remove the water bowl,she will go back in it anyway if she feels she needs it.


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## hamz77 (Mar 17, 2013)

Many of the LLL employees have no knowledgle on pdfs at all. The other day i asked for 2 hydei and 2 melanogaster and the guy came out with only 2 melanogaster and thought i wanted 1 culture of each and didnt understand the difference between the species.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

kee's zoo said:


> I have a screen top, which I know isn't recommended, but I am home pretty much all day and mist them a few times. I've not had a problem maintaining humidity, the male likes to call sometimes after I mist them. I do not have anything to measure the specific humity level.


That's a little confusing to me... If you don't have a way to measure the humidity how are you sure you have not had a problem maintaining humidity? 

Definitely get some Saran Wrap on there ASAP to help stabilize it. Just make sure you don't melt the Saran Wrap with whatever light you're using. Screen tops are just a bad idea all around. What would happen if something unexpected happened and you were away for a day or two? You could come home to a really dry viv and some not so happy frogs...


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

hamz77 said:


> Many of the LLL employees have no knowledgle on pdfs at all. The other day i asked for 2 hydei and 2 melanogaster and the guy came out with only 2 melanogaster and thought i wanted 1 culture of each and didnt understand the difference between the species.


I am sadly finding that out...


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> That's a little confusing to me... If you don't have a way to measure the humidity how are you sure you have not had a problem maintaining humidity?
> 
> Definitely get some Saran Wrap on there ASAP to help stabilize it. Just make sure you don't melt the Saran Wrap with whatever light you're using. Screen tops are just a bad idea all around. What would happen if something unexpected happened and you were away for a day or two? You could come home to a really dry viv and some not so happy frogs...


I don't need a humidity gauge because I am capable of touching the soil and checking the false bottom for moisture. I know that there are other DB members that do not use a gauge, and do just fine. Sorry, if I sound defensive, but I am looking for friendly advice, not an attack on how I take care of my pets. I would never leave them alone, uncared for.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I don't think he was attacking you. We're all just trying to help you. No, most of us don't use humidity gauges. We also don't have open screen tops. Wet soil and false bottom water level do not equal humidity. Most of us have been keeping frogs for a long time. I can tell where my humidity is by sticking my arm in the cage. I can also tell by the amount of condensation that occurs without misting. Most importantly I can tell by my frogs behavior. I don't know that humidity is the problem with your frog, but its probably the most likely cause, and something you need to address before you can move on to other possibilities.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I don't think the soil is over saturated, I don't see any moisture in the false bottom and the soil isn't soggy. I can get a gauge, but I've heard many are inaccurate. As far as the screen top, I've already had a DB member offer to send me glass to fit the screens. I just need to measure. I'm just trying to find out if anyone has had this happen with their frog, and what I can do to help her.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

kee's zoo said:


> I don't need a humidity gauge because I am capable of touching the soil and checking the false bottom for moisture. I know that there are other DB members that do not use a gauge, and do just fine. Sorry, if I sound defensive, but I am looking for friendly advice, not an attack on how I take care of my pets. I would never leave them alone, uncared for.


I was in no way attacking you and did not mean for my post to come across as such, I'm sorry if it did.

I was not accusing you of leaving them alone and uncared for. Take note that i said "if something unexpected happened". We have had plenty of times on this forum where someone has been hospitalized or something else unfortunate and unexpected has forced them to be away from their frogs. I was simply applying my experience and knowledge of past events to help put things in a different perspective for you. Preparing for the worst can potentially eliminate any issues down the road. Also, I would think the peace of mind of knowing your frogs can go a few days without misting would be nice...


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

Update: She spent the night in the water too. I left a message for an amphibian vet this morning, hopefully when he calls me back I can get some answers on what to do next. I definitely hope to keep getting help from all of you, I know that I still have a lot to learn.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> I was in no way attacking you and did not mean for my post to come across as such, I'm sorry if it did.
> 
> I was not accusing you of leaving them alone and uncared for. Take note that i said "if something unexpected happened". We have had plenty of times on this forum where someone has been hospitalized or something else unfortunate and unexpected has forced them to be away from their frogs. I was simply applying my experience and knowledge of past events to help put things in a different perspective for you. Preparing for the worst can potentially eliminate any issues down the road. Also, I would think the peace of mind of knowing your frogs can go a few days without misting would be nice...


Thank you for explaining. I'm probably a little touchy right now because I am stressed about my frog and I feel bad that I listened to employees who gave me wrong information. I should have been supplementing them this whole time and I wasn't. As far as being away from my frogs, I am on disability and home with them all day. And fortunately I have my husband and pet sitter who could always jump in and take care of all the pets, if something ever happened to me.
Is there a particular brand of humidity gauge I should buy? It would be nice to know if they could go a few days without misting (although I don't mind).


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Most people have more success with digital hygrometers than analog... But like Jason mentioned a lot of us don't even use them. Many analog hygrometers have trouble with higher humidity conditions like our frog vivs.

Once you get the top covered up you should be able to judge if the humidity is adequate by condensation on the glass. That is, assuming there is a temperature difference between your viv and the outside room. 

Sorry if we seem like we are focused on the tank and not the frog... But a lot of times when we see issues like this they are driven by the environment, so we just want to make sure everything is up to snuff there before trying to narrow it down to something else that is likely much more complicated to diagnose.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I covered one part of the screen with saran wrap, I didn't cover the other side because that is where the light is. I don't want to melt the wrap.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I dont know that a vet will be able to help you much over the phone without you bringing the animal to them other than suggesting some of the suggestions so far. But I just remebered that the membr frogface has a link in her signature to a site that can locate exotic vets in your area. I know you said you already msgd one but hopefully this helps incase that one is to far away. Hopefully once you get the viv sealed up and the humidity in check everything works it self out. Goodluck either way, keep us posted. Also I would take randommind up on his offer because he builds vivs and knows his stuff. But just for the future you can get glass at hom depot or lowes and they will cut it for you. I use 1/8" thickness double strenghth for my tops.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

kee's zoo said:


> I covered one part of the screen with saran wrap, I didn't cover the other side because that is where the light is. I don't want to melt the wrap.


What kind of light are you using?


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

I am using a ReptiGlo UVB light.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

You have all been so helpful. I just got back from the vet and am in desperate need of advice from people with experience. I posted a new thread "HELP! The vet recommended things that I don't know are right!" If you could PLEASE read it and tell me what you think, I would really appreciate it!


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

OMG!!!!!! She's out of the water!!! For the first time in 3 days!! I hope she's doing better.....I hope this lasts....I am so excited!


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

And I bought a humidity gauge.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

The guage will keep longer if you only place it in the viv when you need a reading. Otherwise it will get water loged and be no good in a short time peripd. Thats assuming your guage is analog.


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## kee's zoo (Jun 29, 2013)

scoy said:


> The guage will keep longer if you only place it in the viv when you need a reading. Otherwise it will get water loged and be no good in a short time peripd. Thats assuming your guage is analog.


I got a digital, made by Flukers, so should stand up to some misting.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

kee's zoo said:


> You have all been so helpful. I just got back from the vet and am in desperate need of advice from people with experience. I posted a new thread "HELP! The vet recommended things that I don't know are right!" If you could PLEASE read it and tell me what you think, I would really appreciate it!


This is the thread ED was quoting in your other thread, Bill


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