# Cloudy Eye



## rmelancon

Wondering if anyone has seen this in a frog before (maybe Ed)?

I have already sent a picture to Dr. Frye and am trying a couple of medications based on his recommendations. Just wanted to see if maybe someone knew what it was or had seen anything like it before. The progression seems to be that the eye eventually swells really big and bursts and if the frog survives it is mostly blind and the eye is totally gray.

Thanks,
Robb


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## Ed

Hi Robb,

I have seen cloudy eyes in multiple frogs and from multiple causes.. (from infections to injuries to corneal lipidosis to cateracts..). 
If you are typically getting the following symptoms then you might be getting an infection (which could be secondary to an injury) in the eye. I haven't had a lot of them progress through the description you provided. 

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum

I had a frog with cataracts and it's eyes were slightly cloudy (but not as much as the picture). It was an old frog (15+ years) and while I did lose it later on (presumed old age, but I am getting a necropsy done), the eye never swelled or burst.


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## Julio

i have had 2 different frogs with cloudy eyes just the same and i personally think is just an eye cap that is not removed well from by the frog when shedding, i usually wait til the next time the frog sheds and i have noticed it gone, i had this happen to a fmeale Alanis and recently my Reginas and both of thier eyes are back to normal.


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## Pirateglow

Hello, I had a Tinc with an eye that looked exactly like your photo. I was advised to place a drop of Methylene blue directly into the eye. It sounded quite bizarre and extreme, but as the eye got worse I tried it. I treated one drop in the infected eye for 2 days in a row and then once again and couple days later. The eye fully recovered and is now the normal dark black color (with a brown iris). 

The advice I was given was from a breeder of Red Eye Tree Frogs and it seemed to do the trick. Also, Methylene blue stains everything including plants and wood in the vivarium so you may want to do it in a quarantine tank. 

I don't know if this was the right thing to do, but my frogs eye did get better.


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## dwdragon

Julio said:


> i have had 2 different frogs with cloudy eyes just the same and i personally think is just an eye cap that is not removed well from by the frog when shedding, i usually wait til the next time the frog sheds and i have noticed it gone, i had this happen to a fmeale Alanis and recently my Reginas and both of thier eyes are back to normal.


I have actually been curious about this and not trying to hijack the thread but I have seen a few posts about "cloudy eye". So here goes the question.

I know that most reptiles when they are just about to shed get "milky eyes". I never paid enough attention to the FBT's or Tree Frogs we had at the store to notice if they got them as well or not.

So the question is do darts get a cloudy / milky eye when they are about to shed sometimes?

EDIT: By the way I thought this was a relevant enough question not to have to start a new thread. If it isn't please pm me and I'll go start a new one.


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## Julio

darts don't display signs before they shed like reptiles do, but my theory is that is a retained eye cap as i have seen them clear up after they shed.


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## rmelancon

Julio said:


> darts don't display signs before they shed like reptiles do, but my theory is that is a retained eye cap as i have seen them clear up after they shed.


I don't think it's an eye cap as it has been this way for months with many sheds of skin since then. Unless somehow it is permanently stuck, but I believe it's more of an infection. Just don't know whether it's fungal or bacterial.


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## Julio

The other possibility is obesity, especially high cholesterol, i know it sounds crazy, but it does happen in frogs, and when it does it shows up in the eyes being cloudy.


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## bellerophon

It could be corneal lipidosis, whats the diet rob? Looks fungal to me however. I'd go with the meth blue treatment and see how it progresses. Try and keep him on the lower end of the humidity spectrum too as that will just help it along.


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## Ed

This is what corneal lipidosis looks like in a frog.... this is an old female grey treefrog (in insect fed frogs corneal lipidosis is often reported in females. In frogs fed rodents, it can be in either sex but typically indicates that the frogs were fed too frequently.) 

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/1157corneallipidosisgretytreefrog.jpg 

and a picture of an old frog with non-corneal lipidosis clouding of the eye (this was a very old squirrel treefrog (around 8 years if I remember correctly) 

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/1157deposits__on_eyes-med.jpg 

You can see the difference in the eyes. The grey has a buildup on the eye. This is different than the other types of clouding. 

Ed


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## bellerophon

Here's another picture of what I believe to be corneal lipidosis


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## james67

recently i had a similar occurrence with a female man creek. i was instructed by Dr. Frye (without having seen pics) that a good general treatment for such a condition was Neo-poly-dex drops. i got a second opinion as well and dosed the animal (by instruction of second DVM) twice daily. i did feel that the frog was stressed badly by having to be caught twice a day and restrained while drops were administered, but i always washed very carefully and tried to avoid any extra stress on the frog. i am not suggesting that you follow these treatment guidelines rather i am sharing a similar situation in which the treatment administered proved effective.

this picture was taken after the first several days of treatment as the swelling receded 

james


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## Ed

Hi Lee,

Nice picture especially since the frog's right eye (the one on the left as we look at it) looks like it has corneal lipidosis but the one on the right looks like it has something else going on with it. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog

James, I was just going to suggest that. I know Frye has some available.


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## james67

the eye on the right (as we look at it) was fine (thats the camera whose macro features i have far from mastered.

i picked up the neo-poly-dex drops from a local DVM and they cost about $9 i think.

james


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## bellerophon

Ed said:


> Hi Lee,
> 
> Nice picture especially since the frog's right eye (the one on the left as we look at it) looks like it has corneal lipidosis but the one on the right looks like it has something else going on with it.
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed, I'm not too sure whats going on with the right eye. All the white's in that enclosure like to sit mostly submerged in the water covering the bottom. Probably a third of them are showing signs of clouding in their eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if it is fungal.

Pic of the enclosure.


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## rmelancon

As recommended I have treated with Neo-Poly-Dex for the 14 day period twice a day and unfortunately it doesn't seem to have had much effect, though by appearance it hasn't gotten any worse. I also treated with baytril once a day during the same time frame. My concern at this point is the added stress of prolonged treatments. It has always been my belief that the stress of quarantine and treatments can often lead to the animal not eating and having other issues unrelated to that which is being treated. Not saying you shouldn't treat sick animals just that the stress of constantly "messing" with them does have it's effects.


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## Ed

bellerophon said:


> Thanks Ed, I'm not too sure whats going on with the right eye. All the white's in that enclosure like to sit mostly submerged in the water covering the bottom. Probably a third of them are showing signs of clouding in their eyes. I wouldn't be surprised if it is fungal.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Lee,
> 
> I would look at the age of the frogs first... If they are above say 6-8 years in age I would consider that to likely to be age related causes (It doesn't always have to be or even to show up in older frogs).. Are they under UV lighting?
> 
> Ed
Click to expand...


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## Ed

rmelancon said:


> Not saying you shouldn't treat sick animals just that the stress of constantly "messing" with them does have it's effects.


I agree with this sentiment Rob. On a different note are you using any new materials in the enclosure? I'm wondering if this isn't a sensitivity reaction to something. 

Ed


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## bellerophon

To my knowlege they are quite old. No UV, standard screen top with 6' shoplight


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## rmelancon

Here's an update after treatment. Like I said doesn't look much better but not much worse either.


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## rmelancon

Ed said:


> I agree with this sentiment Rob. On a different note are you using any new materials in the enclosure? I'm wondering if this isn't a sensitivity reaction to something.
> 
> Ed


No, nothing new. They are possibly WC animals so age could be a factor. It could also be an injury from various shipments. If it's not bacterial and not fungal I'm thinking my best bet is to put it back in the permanent enclosure where at least the stress will be gone. It was breeding before I pulled it so if that is a sign of "happiness"...


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## Ed

bellerophon said:


> To my knowlege they are quite old. No UV, standard screen top with 6' shoplight


Then I would suspect that the white's treefrogs left eye is due to age. There is some risk if the frogs can't get out from under UV lighting but you were able to rule that out... I have seen this in a lot of frogs once they start getting really old for that species. When the vets have examinied under magnification and specialized drops and uv light to look for damage to the eye, it has always been negative and it doesn't show the surface adhesions seen in corneal lipidosis. The diagnosis has typically been age or some form of cataracts. Necropsies slides haven't typically shown infections either. 

Ed


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## Ed

rmelancon said:


> No, nothing new. They are possibly WC animals so age could be a factor. It could also be an injury from various shipments. If it's not bacterial and not fungal I'm thinking my best bet is to put it back in the permanent enclosure where at least the stress will be gone. It was breeding before I pulled it so if that is a sign of "happiness"...


Hi Rob,

If it was acting normally and you don't know the age I would suspect that it may not be due to an infection (especially since it doesn't appear to have responded to treatment). 

Ed


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## rmelancon

Just an update, the animal seems to be doing fine and has gained it's weight back and is back breeding. The eye is still not normal but looks better than in the pics. I'm quite sure had I kept it in the quarantine tank and tried all kind of different meds it would not have made it.


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## rozdaboff

It looks like I am late to the party on this one - and I don't know how I didn't see this before.

Just a couple of comments

- Given the picture, the opacity seems to be localized to the cornea - as it disrupts the clarity of the pupil (which we are looking at through the cornea). Without looking at the eye in person - it is hard to say for sure that it isn't in the anterior chamber of the eye (between the iris and the cornea) - but the pics you have don't look like it. There is also the small chance that it is a fungal infection/ulcer - but since you treated with NPD and it didn't get worse after treatment, this is less likely.

- If it was a bacterial infection of the cornea, most likely at some point much earlier in the disease process of the infection an erosive ulcer extending into the stroma of the cornea would have developed (the bacteria produced collagenases and proteases that breakdown the cornea). Worst-case scenario - the ulcer extends all the way through the cornea and the eye begins to leak.

- The nature of the opacity doesn't look crystalline - so I don't think that corneal lipidosis is likely.

- From the pictures, it looks like there is chronic superficial keratitis going on. This can be due to constant irritation of the corneal surface or corneal dehydration (lack of tears). Although you can't see them easily - Anurans have short eyelids and a translucent third eyelid. Sometimes things can get behind them and cause constant irritation - but there is generally a pattern associated with that - and this eye doesn't really have the typical pattern. So - my best guess - would be a decrease in hydration of the cornea (decreased "tears" from the Harderian gland) - resulting in a chronic keratitis. In Drs. Wright and Whitaker's book - this has been documented before in dendrobatids - and there really isn't an effective treatment. It may get worse to continue to cloud the cornea, and there may eventually be vascularization of the cornea (invasion of blood vessels across the surface). This may progress to the point where the frog will no longer be able to see through the eye.

Sorry I didn't comment earlier. But - my recent Ophthalmology rotation probably helped me answer the questions A LOT better 

Oz


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