# mantella shipments?



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i saw this: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/60352-mantellas-maybe-more.html

and im not saying anything bad about protean. but im curious to know how a critically endangered frog (aurantiaca) is being imported from the wild? especially since hes bringing in 150?

again, not starting anything, or throwing anyone under the bus. just curious...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Madagascar has an export quota just like Surname with the tincts so that is the reason why they are allowed to be exported, unlike 10 years ago when matellas were coming in by the boat loads and hardly anyone could keep them alive, people know more about them and are able to keep them and breed them, so some new blood in the hobby is great.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Looks like the thread was closed. I may be wrong but don't mantellas lay tons of eggs? I thought in the wild they bred like crazy, maybe this is why so many are allowed to be exported.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Julio said:


> Madagascar has an export quota just like Surname with the tincts so that is the reason why they are allowed to be exported, unlike 10 years ago when matellas were coming in by the boat loads and hardly anyone could keep them alive, people know more about them and are able to keep them and breed them, so some new blood in the hobby is great.


ya but didnt a whole bunch come in last year? dont think we need that much new blood every year. especially with how they are doing in the wild.




JaredJ said:


> Looks like the thread was closed. I may be wrong but don't mantellas lay tons of eggs? I thought in the wild they bred like crazy, maybe this is why so many are allowed to be exported.


they do, but if theres no habitat for them to live in it doesnt really matter. and since madagascars new government took over, more and more forest is being destroyed. even in "protected" areas.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

If I'm not mistaken a big problem over there is the production of charcoal as a source of money.


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## laylow (Apr 6, 2009)

fleshfrombone said:


> If I'm not mistaken a big problem over there is the production of charcoal as a source of money.


I watched a TV program that showed this! Probably the same one you saw. Im thinkinging they have had a big problem with deforestation!

As for Mantella's. . . . I have some from his last shipment and they are very healthy. Im even wanting more from this next shipment. . . I really what he has given me thus far.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

laylow said:


> I watched a TV program that showed this! Probably the same one you saw. Im thinkinging they have had a big problem with deforestation!
> 
> I agree...how can we protect the fauna, we they have no flora to call home.Is their a real solution to this problem?


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Making charcoal sucks. Burning trees and all the soot it produces that falls everywhere.

Mantellas are cooler temp frogs aren't they? I'm sure all that heat doesn't help them any.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> I agree...how can we protect the fauna, we they have no flora to call home.Is their a real solution to this problem?


Convince the farmers/landowners that there is more $ in frog ranching than there is in charcoal. Frog ranching is and infinite resource as long as the habitat remains.


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

i love the golden mantellas and i will be in on this shipment... they will be my first mantellas..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> I may be wrong but don't mantellas lay tons of eggs? I thought in the wild they bred like crazy, maybe this is why so many are allowed to be exported.


Usually the production of large numbers of offspring are an adaption to try and ensure that at least one or two from each clutch will reach maturity to reproduce. Production of large numbers of offspring cannot be used to indicate how a species does in the wild. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jason said:


> Convince the farmers/landowners that there is more $ in frog ranching than there is in charcoal. Frog ranching is and infinite resource as long as the habitat remains.


There has to be a market for them.. it isn't like mantellas haven't been bred in this country (and elsewhere) for a long time.. Reproduction has been occurring since the late 1980s in a number of species. The problem is that many of these species do not have sufficient interest in them to keep them long term (as with many other interesting species (bumble bee toads, hourglass treefrogs..), so the captive population collapses and more are imported. 
If you want to get an idea what it is like talk to InsularExotics about his experiences selling them at some of the IADs... 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I was able to sell a significant number of offspring from a few species, albeit at a very low price. However, you are correct in that one breeding pair/group can pretty much satisfy U.S. demand.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> I was able to sell a significant number of offspring from a few species, albeit at a very low price. However, you are correct in that one breeding pair/group can pretty much satisfy U.S. demand.


So it would seem that the exportation here is not generally good for the frogs because of the imbalance in supply and demand.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I'm no Mantella expert but I do have a few thoughts / questions....

1. Those frogs are fecund ?

2. They all breed very well for U.S hobbyists who distribute and transfer them generously ?

3. See #1 and #2 above....and the price point for these animals is accordingly - fairly low, especially when compared to a hard to raise animal like a pumilio and other darts that don't lay near as many eggs?

4. The number of Mantella hobbyists who are to be considered "multiple species keepers" and those who collect numbers of species is much lower than dart frog hobbyists ? 50% less, possibly ?

If all, or most of that is true....I too question the need for 500 to 800 "piece" imports of these animals. Where else are they going?...oh...I can guess...."Pet Shoppes" 

And if Madagascar exporters are making importers take on extra animals just to pad the outgoing sale....further shame on them and us.

again.....far from me to have my ear to the ground or have the pulse of the Mantella hobby in the U.S., but I haven't heard a peep about that last big California mantella import. Where it all went. Who got what. How people feel about it....

Some thoughts...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Good points, esp with regard to where they go. At local shows, WP, NH Manchester, etc. most of the frogs being sold by the reptile guys are mantellas, rarely other dendrobatids, I assume, mostly, because of their wholesale cost. 

Also, when imports can be had for $20, CB must go for much less... I was selling viridis by the end for about $10-15 each for 4-6 month old ones.... however, my first 25 or so sold for more than WC ... I think I just saturated the market.


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## Mikko (Sep 23, 2005)

I too would question these imports, considering that Madagascar is really one of the poorest nations with a political mess, and they can´t protect their endemic fauna. People take advantage of that. I really can´t see a positive future for lot of mantella species, eg. if for goldens the area of occupancy is than 10km2, all these imports with mature individuals, you can just think about the rationality of exporting these frogs. Just my 2cents.

I just checked the list of animals which are banned to import to European Union so far, and among those there is quite a lot of madagascarian species, like pretty much all Uroplatus and the following species of Mantellas: aurantiaca, bernhardi, crocea, expectata, milotympanum and viridis. Also some other frogs such as Scaphiophryne gottlebei.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Mikko said:


> I too would question these imports, considering that Madagascar is really one of the poorest nations with a political mess, and they can´t protect their endemic fauna. People take advantage of that. I really can´t see a positive future for lot of mantella species, eg. if for goldens the area of occupancy is than 10km2, all these imports with mature individuals, you can just think about the rationality of exporting these frogs. Just my 2cents.
> 
> I just checked the list of animals which are banned to import to European Union so far, and among those there is quite a lot of madagascarian species, like pretty much all Uroplatus and the following species of Mantellas: aurantiaca, bernhardi, crocea, expectata, milotympanum and viridis. Also some other frogs such as Scaphiophryne gottlebei.


Hi Mikko,

Nice post and I agree. Can you post a thread on the exact species of Dart frogs and Mantellas that are illegal in the E.U. We often wonder about European CB frogs and possible importation to the U.S ect, and it would be great to see some information posted about that.


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## Mikko (Sep 23, 2005)

I found an english link for you http://www.ymparisto.fi/download.asp?contentid=122361&lan=en

Sadly it´s quite insufficient list still, this is the most recent list, though mantellas have been there for few years.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Plain and simple: BREED YOUR MANTELLAS. 

More captive bred for a cheaper price, less demand for wild caught. It takes a lot of money to import frogs too.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Rain_Frog said:


> Plain and simple: BREED YOUR MANTELLAS.
> 
> More captive bred for a cheaper price, less demand for wild caught. It takes a lot of money to import frogs too.


 With this, I think selling wholesale lots at cheap prices to resellers/wholesalers goes hand in hand. It displaces the need for 'cheap' wild caught frogs, and makes captive bred animals available to a wider audience.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

exactly what I did with the viridis, BJ bought like 30-40 from me, as well as another vendor.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> With this, I think selling wholesale lots at cheap prices to resellers/wholesalers goes hand in hand. It displaces the need for 'cheap' wild caught frogs, and makes captive bred animals available to a wider audience.


That's what I did when I bred ebenaui-- selling the big lots for cheap a few vendors was a greatidea. I like to sell wholesale to people that can attend shows or have stores so I can make room. It also helps get more frogs out to different people and also gets your own name and reputation as a breeder out too


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Rain_Frog said:


> That's what I did when I bred ebenaui-- selling the big lots for cheap a few vendors was a greatidea. I like to sell wholesale to people that can attend shows or have stores so I can make room. It also helps get more frogs out to different people and also gets your own name and reputation as a breeder out too


 I think this is probably the easiest way the average hobbyist can play a part in conserving the amphibians we love. Breeding alone really (on the hobbyist level, at least) really does not do too much for conservation, but replacing the demand for wild caught frogs with captive bred animals goes a long way. I really think a concerted effort on the part of a group of hobbyists could make a substantial impact.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

another idea is donating portions of hobbyist transaction money to conservation efforts. After all, more amphibians are suffering from habitat loss and pollution than chytrid.


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## david.cravens (Apr 20, 2010)

Rain_Frog said:


> another idea is donating portions of hobbyist transaction money to conservation efforts. After all, more amphibians are suffering from habitat loss and pollution than chytrid.


I like that idea, was something I was wanting to do if I ever have enough success become a vendor/ seller. Something like Save Madagascar since pretty much every species I own is a Madagascar species. Guess the biggest concern would be making sure the money was actually going to conservation efforts and not lining some Govt. official's pocket.


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