# Very wet paludarium, safe for dart frogs?



## surfer88

I set up a 40gallon completely sealed paludarium with some leuc's in it. 

I'm using coco fiber (i know not a great substrate) with some moss on top. The cocofiber gets very wet. It is above the water line (I have a false bottom) but I think my drip wall is making is soggy. Some plants arent doing very well. I think because the cocofiber gets so soggy. 

I was wondering if can I take out all the coco fiber and use a gravel like substrate like eco-complete and just use aquarium plants that can be grown out of water or emersed? I will still use leaf litter. Is eco-complete too small of grain size for dart frogs?

Would having a really wet environment be bad for the frogs? Or is it more of a problem with the plants?

Thanks for any input


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## hypostatic

surfer88 said:


> Would having a really wet environment be bad for the frogs?


Yes it would be. Dart frogs need to be able to dry off. If they are always wet it opens the door to skin infections which are pretty serious for frogs. If your plants aren't doing well, frogs probably wouldn't either.


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## surfer88

ok so i turned off the drip wall so the soil wont get as soaked. I also switched to a cedar mulch that I got from petco.

What about the ventilation? Is it ok to have it sealed off? I made a few small holes is this enough?


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## PDFanatic

You should make a 3inch wide screen that runs the width of the top of the tank. Then get a fan kit and have the fan cycle a couple times a day so fresh air is circulated in the tank. Also for a substrate look on NEHERP.com and buy some ABG substrate. It is composed of material made to drain very well. I would get rid of those cedar wood chips and put ABG mix in. This will help keep your tank dried out. Your frogs will be much happier as well!


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## surfer88

ok ill look into the substrate 

I really want to do something like this guy. 






Is it really too wet for dart frogs?


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## hypostatic

As I understand it cedar is TOXIC. I would not have it in with sensitive animals like frogs that have highly permeable skin. If you can smell the cedar smell I would take it out of the viv.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/2842-red-cedar-toxic.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/10353-old-cedar-driftwood-ok-not-ok.html


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## surfer88

sorry its cypress mulch. Not cedar. its called forest floor


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## hypostatic

Oh ok, cypress seems to be same.

I think ventilation is very important. It's pretty much on the same note as not being too wet. You'll find many threads on how ventilation is important and has improved the health/activity of the frogs. I have a closed viv, but I still have air flow due to a fan in the viv.

The frogs NEED a place where they can dry offif they want to. So you can't have the tank dripping wet. They need to be ale to osmoregulate. Just like with other herps that use basking lamps to thermoregulate, you need areas of the viv that have different moisture so they can regulate themselves.

Again, this is crucial to their health.

If you are worried about your build post some pictures and maybe we can help give you some pointers.


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## Groundhog

surfer88 said:


> ok ill look into the substrate
> 
> I really want to do something like this guy.
> 
> Vivarium frog tank. View at your own risk. - YouTube
> 
> Is it really too wet for dart frogs?


Yes, it too wet. 

I usually have nothing to say about PDFs per se, as I do not keep any (hylids, rhacophorids, lizards for me But I do know that most, including _D. leucomelas_, do not come from that kind of micro-habitat. Most PDFs are diurnal, terrestrial frogs that frolic in the leaf litter and/or low shrubs and epiphytes--they are not stream-side frogs. You should do a search on habitat photos on the Board to get some ideas how they live (_D. leucomelas_, for example, lives in areas with seasonal fluctuations in temperature and humidity.)

Now, there are a few small herps that would thrive in that set-up--but not leucs.

Examples:
Paddle-tailed newts
some Cynops species
Warty newts (Paramesotriton sp.)
Laotriton sp.
Fire-bellied toads
some smaller Asian ranids
Floating frogs
Theloderma sp.
Blue toed tree frog (_Hypsiboas heilprini_)
Dwarf sirens
Water skinks (Tropidophorus)
and possibly _Triturus marmoratus_

Now, if the set-up is %@#*!* huge:
Malagasy diving skinks
crocodile lizards
Caiman lizards

If I won that tank on a game show, I would do some combo of an aquatic newt, a small Theloderma species and water skinks--but hey, that's me...

Hope this helps.


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## Groundhog

As for the plants, many of our tropicals grow as epiphytes or opportunisitc epiphytes, meaning they need very good drainage. Your set up will not work for bromeliads, orchids, begonias, peperomias, most gesneriads; all these need to be elevated. However, it can work for some aroids, pileas, hydrocotyle, ludwigia, hygrophila, acorus, small amazon swords, a few ferns and mosses.

See Desvosoli, Philippe _Popular Amphibians_. Has a good section on how to set up a shore-line vivarium and how to grow plants hydroponically.


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## ngeno626

a fan and a high place in the viv for the frogs to get out of the stagnant humidity is always a good idea.


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## Agrippa

You can certainly use a number of aquatic plants to cover areas where the substrate is wetter. Carpeting plants will help to create a barrier between your frogs and saturated substrate. Some good examples include _Hemianthus callitrichoides, H. micranthemoides, _various Utricularias, and a wide variety of aquatic mosses (java, Christmas, etc.) There are also plenty of stemmed or rosette plants that can work as well. I've also used aquatic substrate in vivaria for better drainage; however it is important to allow enough time for the substrate to be densely covered with plants before introducing frogs so that you can minimize substrate ingestion. While most aquatic substrates are composed largely of clay, it's better to be safe than sorry. 

To provide areas where a frog can dry out, use branches, driftwood, or stone to create elevated areas where the inhabitants can get away from the damp substrate and up into a dryer microclimate. This is very similar to basking areas for reptiles. Non-permeable surfaces would be best for this (stone, etc,) but wood can work very well too. This can be done as part of the hardscape, and is an element present in most attractive vivaria. It also permits you to grow various epiphytes (as you shouldn’t be growing them in the substrate anyway.) 

It should be noted that both of these options are only treating the symptoms of your troubles, rather than the source. If you don’t want to have to leave your drip wall shut off, there are a few options. With a drip wall that contacts the substrate (many drip walls are built this way,) the difficulty is that the water has to pass through your substrate before it can be recirculated. You can remove the substrate from the area where it is in contact with the drip wall and use stones, Hydroton, or other less permeable substrates to act as a barrier. You can then cover this substrate with moss or other aquatic epiphytes to camouflage it. It is also possible that your false bottom simply does not elevate your substrate high enough over the water level necessary for your pump to function. This, too, will require a fair bit of work to remove your substrate and increase the height of your false bottom, but is relatively simple. 
It is important to note that these suggestions should not be taken to contradict the value of ventilation and air movement for the overall health of a vivarium.

As an aside, the newly set-up vivarium in the video is very pretty, but it likely won’t stay that way for very long. The drip wall in the back is saturating that _Selaginella_ and the other plants around it and will cause them to rot. Also, the species mixing going on in there isn’t a good idea- clawed frogs don’t usually get along with anything that can fit in their mouth and are generally regarded as carriers of a diverse array of pathogens. 

Good luck with your setup. Water features can be frustrating, but with a little extra work and planning you can likely make it work for you.


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## PDFanatic

Don't forget about java moss and riccia fluitans!! Those are two cool mosses that need wet conditions...


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## Dendro Dave

surfer88 said:


> ok ill look into the substrate
> 
> I really want to do something like this guy.
> 
> Vivarium frog tank. View at your own risk. - YouTube
> 
> Is it really too wet for dart frogs?


I might be going against what some others have said, but I'd keep darts in that tank. You can see in parts of the video he actually has a fair amount of land, though his construction techniques are a bit different then the typical. I've seen zoo/aquarium exhibits that were built similar to that.

I'd only do probably 3, because it isn't really densely planted with lots of hiding spots. But assuming there is some ventilation, I think there is enough land/plants that aren't so saturated that the frog wouldn't be able to breath. They are frogs after all.

Might try for a species that is associated with streams sometimes like trivs/bassleri...










I know my red glacts frequent the wettest parts of their viv, and I've watched this aurotaenia sit in the water over here on my right because there is a small feeder culture with flies nearby. He sits there half submerged and picks flies off that thing and does it for quite awhile, and repeatedly throughout the day. He doesn't appear to be soaking because he is ill, just because it is a convient place for him to get flies when the other frogs jocky for other positions.

We don't know if he runs the pumps/dripwall 24/7... You could easily set up a similar tank and put that stuff on a timer so you had your pond and/or filtration for the pond, but didn't have to run the drip wall/waterfall stuff 24/7 which might give some here a little more peace of mind. 

I don't really see much difference between a tank like this, and one with almost zero ventilation like many people keep their frogs in. Actually I'd wager a tank like in the video with some ventilation would be the healthier environment for darts vs a seal up viv, and we know that lots of people do just fine with darts in sealed up vivs with very very little ventilation (not my personal preference though). Also you could put leaf litter in some of those areas. Like in the video the middle, and back left parts would be good places for leaf litter. Basically my biggest problem with that viv is that it isn't densely planted enough for very many frogs. I'd go with only 2-3 frogs of a very bold species/morph. I'd also not have a 24/7 drip wall, and would make sure the viv had decent ventilation.


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## Groundhog

Dave ba-bee:

As you mention, some PDFs yes, but _D. leucomelas_? Don't leucs actually come from more moderate micro-climates (e.g., moist in some places, warm/dry at least part of the year)? 

To put in my--tree frog--terms, there are a few hylids and hyperoliids I would not recommend for that tank either. And do not get me wrong, I dig paludaria! 



Dendro Dave said:


> I might be going against what some others have said, but I'd keep darts in that tank. You can see in parts of the video he actually has a fair amount of land, though his construction techniques are a bit different then the typical. I've seen zoo/aquarium exhibits that were built similar to that.
> 
> I'd only do probably 3, because it isn't really densely planted with lots of hiding spots. But assuming there is some ventilation, I think there is enough land/plants that aren't so saturated that the frog wouldn't be able to breath. They are frogs after all.
> 
> Might try for a species that is associated with streams sometimes like trivs/bassleri...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I know my red glacts frequent the wettest parts of their viv, and I've watched this aurotaenia sit in the water over here on my right because there is a small feeder culture with flies nearby. He sits there half submerged and picks flies off that thing and does it for quite awhile, and repeatedly throughout the day. He doesn't appear to be soaking because he is ill, just because it is a convient place for him to get flies when the other frogs jocky for other positions.
> 
> We don't know if he runs the pumps/dripwall 24/7... You could easily set up a similar tank and put that stuff on a timer so you had your pond and/or filtration for the pond, but didn't have to run the drip wall/waterfall stuff 24/7 which might give some here a little more peace of mind.
> 
> I don't really see much difference between a tank like this, and one with almost zero ventilation like many people keep their frogs in. Actually I'd wager a tank like in the video with some ventilation would be the healthier environment for darts vs a seal up viv, and we know that lots of people do just fine with darts in sealed up vivs with very very little ventilation (not my personal preference though). Also you could put leaf litter in some of those areas. Like in the video the middle, and back left parts would be good places for leaf litter. Basically my biggest problem with that viv is that it isn't densely planted enough for very many frogs. I'd go with only 2-3 frogs of a very bold species/morph. I'd also not have a 24/7 drip wall, and would make sure the viv had decent ventilation.


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## Dendro Dave

Groundhog said:


> Dave ba-bee:
> 
> As you mention, some PDFs yes, but _D. leucomelas_? Don't leucs actually come from more moderate micro-climates (e.g., moist in some places, warm/dry at least part of the year)?
> 
> To put in my--tree frog--terms, there are a few hylids and hyperoliids I would not recommend for that tank either. And do not get me wrong, I dig paludaria!


Probably, I'd have to look it up to be sure. I've read most of the books and done lots of research over the years but I have the memory of a gold fish. Once around the bowl and it's all new to me.

Basically with darts as long as my viv is in the 70's, high humidity, decent ventilation, and not completely flooded the frogs seem happy, so I don't over think it to much. 

Basically the viv in the video isn't ideal, at least that isn't quite how I'd do a tank like that, but I think it would work fine for most darts. I'd have the drip wall on a timer, more plants, and some ledges and/or boulders or something more for the frogs to get higher and dryer. They could theoretically climb up on that branch, the background or a few other places closer to the lights and dry off a bit if they felt to saturated.


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## hypostatic

Dendro Dave said:


> I might be going against what some others have said, but I'd keep darts in that tank. You can see in parts of the video he actually has a fair amount of land, though his construction techniques are a bit different then the typical. I've seen zoo/aquarium exhibits that were built similar to that.


while I agree that the tank in the video looks ok, that is not the OP's tank.

As he mentioned, his plants are not doing well and everything is soggy. It is completely closed and has no ventilation.

I stand by my statement that if the plants aren't doing well in there, then it's probably not a good environment for the frogs either.

He could post a picture of his own setup to show otherwise, but until then it sounds like the frogs wouldn't be healthy in there


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## Dendro Dave

hypostatic said:


> while I agree that the tank in the video looks ok, that is not the OP's tank.
> 
> As he mentioned, his plants are not doing well and everything is soggy. It is completely closed and has no ventilation.
> 
> I stand by my statement that if the plants aren't doing well in there, then it's probably not a good environment for the frogs either.
> 
> He could post a picture of his own setup to show otherwise, but until then it sounds like the frogs wouldn't be healthy in there


Ya, I'd agree with that. I was just talking about the viv in the vid. Also it should be pointed out that you can make a viv like the vid look nice when it is relatively new, but keeping it that way and it remaining a healthy habitat isn't a given.


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