# New Jersey permit



## yours

I'm not sure what other states have this requirement for a permit, but the N.J. Department of Fish and Wildlife is ALL about it!(the Salmonella "turtle" incident in the past probably encouraged them to do it)

Long story short hypothetical question: How do I--a resident of New Jersey--go about getting a permit...from a breeder of a "dart frog"(insert anything in there that isn't NATIVE to NJ), wherein the Breeder doesn't live in the same state as myself....(i realize that someone that lives in the same state, probably all ready HAS to be concerned w/ having a seller's permit, plus issuing out permits to those that buy from him/her)

I'm not sure, I can't conceive how I'm able to "follow" this regulation and comply....when for instance, and I use his name often, MIKE NOVY lives in the state of OHIO, not needing permits or anything of the such! I remember a year ago, when I got my first permit(for my firebelly toads and newts) and happened to ask about his treefrogs that "would be coming".....they responded w/ something like "if you can have him give you a receipt or provide proof of purchase---!" I brought it to his attention then and he was like "A permit? For what?"

Yeah. So what do YOU people do, that live in New Jersey......I'd like to be upfront about this, and do it the right way...instead of trying to "hide" my collection and what not....(i did see the "pertaining to laws about dart frogs" thread in the GENERAL category, but thought this was more specific so placed the question here...hopefully that was right!  )

Thanks for your time....


Alex


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## Scott

Don't ask, don't tell.

It's not just for the military. 

s


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## AlexRible

I think that the N.J. Department of Fish and Wildlife has bigger fish to fry so to say. Like that lady in howell who's tigers escape from time to time.


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## MrGerbik

I'm from NJ,and I bought all kinds of reptile and amphibians in my day. No permit. Sometimes petstores require them, but its just a way to collect extra cash.


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## melissa68

Well, other states have requirements too.

Ohio - any vendor setting up at a show from out of state better have a vet certificate for all the animals stating they are healthy. Also, permits & pit tags are required on any native animal. There is also a limit of the number of native species you can have. I don't know all the details, but there are requirements & certain cities within the state (Bowling Green comes to mind) does not allow people to own any constrictors.

Kentucky - Anyone bringing animals into the state (or through it) is required to obtain a permit ahead of time. We have had friends fined for this one. They do allow people to collect wild species, but you must obtain specific permits to breed them and sell any native species.

Indiana - also does not allow people to own venomous animals. It has been a while since I read the information, but I think it went something like "any animal in it's native habitat which is venomous, can cause human harm or death is prohibited, regardless if it has been modified (surgically altered) & is not longer venomous". 

NJ sounds a bit extreme. But it isn't uncommon for vendors from other states to not be aware of laws or regulations of states they ship to or travel to. Choosing to comply or not - that is something only you can decide.


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## basshummper

I did a quick little research for you because I was trying to do the same thing in Maine. Go here: NJDEP Division of Fish & Wildlife - Exotic and Nongame Species Requiring a Permit for Possession scroll down to the bottom of the page and email that office. Permits were such a pain in the ass in Maine that I'm actualy in the middle of getting Maine to add PDFs to the unrestricted species list.


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## stemcellular

AlexRible said:


> I think that the N.J. Department of Fish and Wildlife has bigger fish to fry so to say. Like that lady in howell who's tigers escape from time to time.


I grew up in Jackson (next to Howell) and came home one day to see a group of NJ state troopers shooting an escaped tiger in my neighborhood - no joke~!


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## AlexRible

stemcellular said:


> I grew up in Jackson (next to Howell) and came home one day to see a group of NJ state troopers shooting an escaped tiger in my neighborhood - no joke~!


Your right ,my bad. It did happen in jackson, I always get those two towns mixed up. Im from wall township just a few towns over. I always thought it was a shame the had to put the animal down, but it is better than anyone getting hurt.


Anyways im risk of getting way off topic "yours". To be completely honest if you have ever dealt with the NJ DOFAW is a huge pain in the @$$ and like mrgerbik said all they are really after is some extra cash. It's not like if the police hear that you have dart frogs they going to come to your home and bust your door down. No need to hide. At most the DOFAW could possibly fine you, but I still think that most private collectors are too low on their radar to really get noticed.


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## flyangler18

Ed Kowalski may be worth consulting on this matter, if you haven't already. He'd have considerable insight- you may want to PM user Ed.


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## Ed

The NJ permit is actually pretty easy to aquire and to deal with you just need patience once you submit it as it can take months to recieve it. 

Unless something has changes since I last read it, you have to fill it out and submit it once you have the frogs in your possession and update it annually. The fee covers all of the animals in the collection. 

Ed


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## timgreener

i had a bunch of cops bust my halloween party and they all loved my frogs, i dont have a permit or anything.


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## Ed

timgreener said:


> i had a bunch of cops bust my halloween party and they all loved my frogs, i dont have a permit or anything.


The cops typically don't care however if DEP is finds out via word of mouth or becomes aware in another way, they will follow up and it is really not worth the hassle for ten dollars a year. 


Ed


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## yours

The only thing in my collection that I have concerns w/ are my Agalychnis callidryas(red eyes) and my Phyllomedusa tomopterna(tiger stripes)....all from Mike Novy.


This is part of the email I got a year-ish ago from the department of wildlife and fish:

================
Alex,

You can go ahead and purchase the frogs from Ohio. Just make sure you send in 
the receipt you get with the frogs showing what you bought and who and where you 
bought them from. That will count as your temporary permit with the 
application.

Thank you,
Wildlife Permits Unit

>>> <[email protected]> 11/19/07 7:56 PM >>>
Thanks for your time...I have a follow-up question:

If I am purchasing frogs from someone in OHIO, that is unfamiliar with these 
temporary permits....how can I go about this? Can I, I suppose, purchase 
DIFFERENT frogs from a NJ pet store firstly....apply for the permit w/ the 
temporary one.......and then get these other frogs from OHIO as well, added on 
w/o a temporary permit? 

I hope you can help me w/ my quandry  Thank you

Alex

=================
So I can't imagine their response being any different, nor Mike Novy's................breeders don't hand out "receipts" at show's, especially if there is no need to, y'know?

Again, I'd definitely want this taken care of rather than.....NOT, and "hoping" it'll be fine.....................I just got the renewal form a little while ago for the December 31st deadline....

I might have to....I don't know....send them another letter or something, or include Mike Novy's website/etc when I send in my form.....and I could use that as a staple for future incoming frogs from breeders outside of NJ(dart frogs)


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## Ed

If you ask Mike Novy, I am sure he would supply the recipt especially if you let him know ahead of time.. 

I can't speak towards it for sure as this was a couple of years ago but I am aware of people having purchased animals from shows and supplying the vendor's name and the show and getting the permit approved. I wouldn't try this with anything that would draw a red flag such as anything on the NJ protected list (like corn snakes for example, albino or otherwise). 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

I looked here Summary of State Laws Relating to Private Possession of Exotic Animals

It is a summary of state laws regarding exotic pets and what not....I didn't see anything that would suggest you need a permit for dart frogs. They weren't listed as "potentially dangerous"...not even mentioned except "amphibians" are mentioned...but none actually listed.

The laws can be very confusing, and its not unheard of for the local government branches responsible for enforcement or issuing permits to not really know what you do and don't need a permit for. Most will probably just play it safe and say...oh ya sure you need a permit for that. Just more money for that department.

As a Fennec Fox owner in Oklahoma, I was told several different things...By the breeder, that I didn't need a permit, unless I was going to breed and sell animals...by other people and reading some web sites like the one above it was either "you need a permit" or it was unclear. I finally found a website for the Oklahoma secretary of state, and did a search for "fennec" turns out its actually on the list of "exempt" species...as are primates and pretty much everything else short of big cats, bears, some native wildlife and venomous reptiles.

It even says you don't need a commercial license to breed/sell them as they are exempt from that also...So it would seem the breeder didn't even need the license she was paying for. And in fact people have been issued permits in Oklahoma and other states for foxes when the animal is actually exempt from such permits. Either the offices issuing the permit didn't know this...or they did and did it anyways just for the cash.

In Ok the law refers to "wildlife" mostly in the context of that which is native to the state...So my question became 'Are exotics like fennecs considered wild life?" By the wording of the law it didn't seem so since it was in a "native" context...and then I found the Oklahoma secretary of state site that actually listed exempt species. http://www.oar.state.ok.us

Perhaps your state has a similar site or something. 

I did however find that certain states or counties can have their own laws. 3 cities in Ok have added rules regarding exotic pets. A list of counties/cities for each state with special provisions can be found here...
Ordinances Regulating Private Possession of Exotic Animals 
New Jersey wasn't listed so I assume that as of the time the list was last updated there were none...at least not easy found.

Anyways I suggest finding as many sources as possible describing the laws for your state and compare them. Also note any text that is vague or where the context seems to suggest things in your favor. Like in my case Fennecs wouldn't be considered actual "wildlife", though they may be considered "exotic livestock"...but the summary clearly states that they are also "exceptions".

I would print/save/bookmark any useful info you find so you can refer to it later or have it on hand to show any officials giving you trouble.

I didn't scour the internet for New Jersey like I did for Ok, so there may be other sources that contradict the one I linked to in the beginning of my post. If they will issue permits and you wanna play it a ultra safe thats very understandable...but at least from the wording of the linked to source assuming its up to date It doesn't seem you need one. At the very least it seems open to enough interpretation that you could likely fight any actions taken against you if it came to that.

In finding more sources you may check sites relating to other exotics in New Jersey...I found some of my sources looking up wolves and wolf hybrids, and 1 may have even been found on a snake page or something....There are lots of sites out there that will direct you to useful info even though the original site had nothing to do with darts...gotta get creative 

Good luck.

(Btw this post is not intended as a definitive answer to your question)


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## Ed

You actually do need a permit for NJ (I know I have one). All you need to do is get the frogs, have some form of recipt (even pay pal records are fine) showing where you got the frogs. FIll out the form, send in the ten dollars and wait and you will get your permit. In Oct you will get a reminder and the form to renew your permit and record any changes on the permit (deaths, new acquisitions, sales, transfers) and you make the changes and record the information and your good to go. I have yet to have a problem with them in the ten years I've been living in the state. One ten dollar permit covers all of the herps in your collection. You do not need a seperate permit for each animal. 

This is where you want to go for the NJ Permit information 
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/exotic_apps.htm 

And this is the list that does not require a permit in NJ. http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/xemptspp.htm

and this is the pet holding permit http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/xotic_hobby.pdf



Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Wow first time I've ever been glad I live in Oklahoma 

I found another site or 2 listing that law I quoted for NJ, and not including the info Ed gave. Just goes to show you need to be thorough in your research.

On a side note: Did NJ suffer an epidemic of killer ferrets running loose on the streets??? Sounds like they are taking those lil guys pretty seriously 

I have 2 btw...And I must admit I'm a little afraid of them...shifty lil things...always plotting. I'm convinced I foiled their plans for some clandestine operation at least once when I found my wallet, car keys, check book and some loose cash stashed under my bed. I'm not sure what they had planned but I think the world probably owes me a debt of gratitude for its continued safety


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## Ed

They just need a $10 permit as do a number of other exotic pets. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

I was just referring to the special note on ferrets at the bottom of the regulations pdf....and the fact that they merited a special note to begin with.

Especially this line in bold type though: "FERRETS MUST BE KEPT IN SUCH A WAY AS TO PREVENT ESCAPE OR INJURY TO THE PUBLIC." (Not that I disagree...but that goes for all animals)

Thought it was kinda funny they got special mention...or tragic. I don't view a well socialized ferret as any more dangerous then a well socialized dog or cat...and any animal not well socialized could be a danger. 

One exception may be the occasional ferret that goes psychotic when it hears high pitched squeaking. I have one of those...perfectly lovable till she hears a squeaky toy then the demon in her surfaces and she will try to kill you or at least rip your face off. The other one could care less about squeaking things though.

Anyways sorry to go off topic.


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## darkspot716

what permits do i need to breed / sell dart frogs in mew york? ive been doing a good amount of looking and am just making myself dizzy


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## mordoria

Wow, another reason to stay away from Jersey.


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## james67

why not just buy a $3 receipt book like this:

Adams Business Forms DC2501WS Money/Rent Receipt Book - 50 Sheet 2

and send one to the seller vie snail mail before the sale?

they would just include the filled out receipt with the frogs.

james


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## Ed

That is a good suggestion but that person asked the question a few years ago.. the thread was necromancied back with a question about New York...


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