# Intimidated by FF's



## jasontatro (May 1, 2012)

Hi all,

So...I've got my vivarium all setup and ready for my new PDF's. Will be attending a show in August and hope to bring home a trio of either D. azureus or D. leucomelas (still haven't made up my mind).

I've done all my research and feel confident that I can actually make a FF culture, but the one thing that still intimidates me, is keeping cultures ongoing and constant. I understand the lifecycle of the FF (toss after 28 days, right?), but not the timing of the cultures, to have a balance of available food and minimal waste.

Can anybody explain to me, or point me in the right direction, of information on how to schedule cultures so there is always food available?

Thanks in advance,

Jason


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

You kind of start by making cultures every 10 days. Time out the days it takes to go from freshly made to producing. youll get the hang of it. Get a pre-made media for ease. A few scoops and some boiling water. You should start making a few to practice before you get frogs. I tend to make smaller cultures. I feel like I waste less media and I never go the full 28 days.


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## jasontatro (May 1, 2012)

Yeah...I've got my culturing kit on it's way from one of the sponsors, so I can get a little practice in. I got the one that makes 10 cultures. Sounds like I should be able to spread that out a little bit more?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Different people have slightly different practices, People tend to make new cultures every 7-14 days. I make mine every 7-10 days so I have at least one culture at maximum production (and it gives some lee way if something happens and the next get started a little late). Until you get a good handle on it, I would suggest making some new cultures every 7-10 days (pick a day of the week and make that fruit fly day). 

The number of cultures depends on how many frogs you have and how your conditions are in your house

Some comments

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm still struggling with having a consistent supply of FFs but am able to offer bean beetles or pinhead crickets as an alternative. I began to have better success after changing to distilled water instead of using our well water. Then there's the issue of inconsistent temperatures...and the observation of where the separation of media from the start of the larva...and what the differences may mean...and disinfecting the lids and cups...so the practice that is being suggested is really important...and members of this board are extremely helpful and not critical about us being amateurs...they probably were at one time too...that is except Ed...and maybe Pumilo...


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## jasontatro (May 1, 2012)

So...you're saying Ed and Pumilo are critical? j/k 

I've found them both to be exteremely knowledgable and helpful.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> one time too...that is except Ed...and maybe Pumilo...


I can't speak for Doug, but it's simply because my skills and failures with cultures were mostly pretty far back... (although I still have the occasional hiccup... about 8 years ago, I had a bunch of cultures smell really terrible, bad enough that my wife (who has worked with some really whiffy animals) pointed out that they smelled so bad, they needed to go....)... 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

trying to figure out WHY something hasn't worked at all...or even partially well...is the art of the subject....all my springtail cultures also crashed...so was it: temperature, location...not enough headroom or oxygen for the springs, too much humidity...too little?? That's why is almost impossible to have someone accurately describe what to do...do cultures do better in the dark?? light?? which ones do better..where?? For such a simple endeavor for so many, for lots more of us noobs, it can be a struggle.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

I'll give you this tip, do not store them near televisions!! lol. A rookie mistake I made, caused a few cultures to mold and leave me in a bind, now that my main setup is on a stand with a smaller empty cabinet, I keep all cultures in it and they stay nice and room temp. No more mold for me and they produce nicely. I start a new culture between 1-2 weeks generally, usually more towards 2 weeks cause I never have the time and forget these things.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Also, getting to know who the local froggers are near you should help, as usually someone will have extras in an emergency.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

BTW, watch the temperatures where your cultures are kept, too low and you won't get as big an explosion of flies, and too high they can turn into fliers. I've found that 75-78 is about perfect for me.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> trying to figure out WHY something hasn't worked at all...or even partially well...is the art of the subject....all my springtail cultures also crashed...so was it: temperature, location...not enough headroom or oxygen for the springs, too much humidity...too little?? That's why is almost impossible to have someone accurately describe what to do...do cultures do better in the dark?? light?? which ones do better..where?? For such a simple endeavor for so many, for lots more of us noobs, it can be a struggle.


 
Are your springtails ventilated? If not, the it possible that they were gassed to death.... I've done this a couple of time, and now I try to make sure the cultures have one of the filter disks that Doug (Pumilio) uses on his cultures. 

Ed


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## Frog Tropics (Jul 18, 2012)

The trick with fruit flies, in my opinion, is to always have more cultures running than you think you need. In the event of simple issues and small problems, this practice can prevent a lot of heartbreak. It can also help you out of a bind when a culture just randomly fails, as is sometimes the case. Bottom line: err on the side of having too much food always, and you should be fine.


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## Sherman Tanks (Jul 19, 2012)

My advise is to keep a little money set aside. 
You can purchase flies from a sponsor and get them fairly quickly if you run into a bind. Flies are not that expensive, but the shipping will sometimes get you, especially in inclimate weather.


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

*#1 fruit fly culturing rule:*
When a culture first produces (the initial explosion), make cultures from it before feeding from it.

If you don't follow this, you *will* run into shortages. The rest is really just trial and error. But like others said, it's always a good idea to have more cultures going than you may need, especially when just starting out. Other feeders are good as a back-up or supplement, but nothing else is as consistant and dependable as melanogaster fruit flies.

Kevin


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

khoff said:


> *#1 fruit fly culturing rule:*
> When a culture first produces (the initial explosion), make cultures from it before feeding from it.
> 
> If you don't follow this, you *will* run into shortages. The rest is really just trial and error. But like others said, it's always a good idea to have more cultures going than you may need, especially when just starting out. Other feeders are good as a back-up or supplement, but nothing else is as consistant and dependable as melanogaster fruit flies.
> ...


This can also be a risk for having cultures crash due to the direct selection that this puts on the flies. see the discussion and references here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42419-genetics-ff-culturing.html 

Some comments

Ed


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

Thanks for the info Ed. While I have utilized the method I mentioned above for several years with no crashes and decent production, I have no doubt that you are correct in saying that flies from various stage cultures should be used when making new ones. I'll have to start doing this.

That said, the first emergence could still be used to judge the timing of making new cultures (or sooner). That would give you the 10-14 day mark. For people (like me) who have trouble following calendars.

Kevin


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

many regular pet stores have fruit flies if you look around, I always just go to pet co to get my flies, basically if you can find some locally it wont be such a big disaster if they crash.


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## pdfDMD (May 9, 2009)

I've always been concerned about this, so I've developed a work around and so far so good. I make cultures every 7-10 days and when I add the new flies, I'll pull some from the previous week's cultures and then combine them with a jar that's experiencing a bloom. I've noted that after a week of introducing flies there's an abundance of small larvae and a host gravid females. If I introduce a few of them into a new culture, they'll start laying immediately while combination of the new flies will help maintain the gene pool. I don't have any scientific proof to back my approach up, but since starting this two years ago I've never had a crash or need to buy any additional cultures. I also don't let a culture sit for longer than five weeks as it starts to smell and, more importantly, older cultures seem to draw mites and other undesirables. Just my $0.02. 



Ed said:


> This can also be a risk for having cultures crash due to the direct selection that this puts on the flies. see the discussion and references here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42419-genetics-ff-culturing.html
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I'm not sure I understand thoroughly what you are saying about mixing the old with the new cultures. If you are setting up a new culture from a booming one, are you also adding flies from a different culture at the same time???


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Judy S said:


> I'm not sure I understand thoroughly what you are saying about mixing the old with the new cultures. If you are setting up a new culture from a booming one, are you also adding flies from a different culture at the same time???


Yep, it helps to add older flies, Judy. I take mine from a blooming culture that's approximately 2 weeks old and a 3 week old culture as well.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Judy S said:


> I'm still struggling with having a consistent supply of FFs but am able to offer bean beetles or pinhead crickets as an alternative. I began to have better success after changing to distilled water instead of using our well water. Then there's the issue of inconsistent temperatures...and the observation of where the separation of media from the start of the larva...and what the differences may mean...and disinfecting the lids and cups...so the practice that is being suggested is really important...and members of this board are extremely helpful and not critical about us being amateurs...they probably were at one time too...that is except Ed...and maybe Pumilo...





> So...you're saying Ed and Pumilo are critical? j/k


LOL, no. I think she's saying that Ed and Pum were never amateurs 

I always just made new cultures every Sunday. Worst case was I used a little more media, no biggie. In Va Beach it usually wasn't a huge deal if I ran out of fies, a couple good pet stores there had some or I knew where to get them. Here in Harrisonburg there is crap for pet stores. Theres a Petsmart, Petco and a mom/pop pet store and none of them carry anything worth selling, IMO. Here I'll definitely have to have more flies going than I need.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Ed said:


> I can't speak for Doug, but it's simply because my skills and failures with cultures were mostly pretty far back... (although I still have the occasional hiccup... about 8 years ago, I had a bunch of cultures smell really terrible, bad enough that my wife (who has worked with some really whiffy animals) pointed out that they smelled so bad, they needed to go....)...
> 
> Ed


I have 4 right now that are sitting right around 3 weeks that 2-3 of smell fairly bad. I'm dumping those as soon as I move but I figured I'd wait till I get there on the slight chance that the rest of the cultures don't make it in the trip.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> LOL, no. I think she's saying that Ed and Pum were never amateurs
> 
> I always just made new cultures every Sunday. Worst case was I used a little more media, no biggie. In Va Beach it usually wasn't a huge deal if I ran out of fies, a couple good pet stores there had some or I knew where to get them. Here in Harrisonburg there is crap for pet stores. Theres a Petsmart, Petco and a mom/pop pet store and none of them carry anything worth selling, IMO. Here I'll definitely have to have more flies going than I need.


Right now I make 4 cultures every 7-10 days to feed around 20 frogs. I also have isopods, springtails and bean beetles that are used as other feeders for the frogs. If you practice good hygeine with your cultures, rotate them appropriately and use mite paper, you shouldn't have a significant enough crash to cause you problems. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

The reason I asked about how many cultures per frog was that I was recently advised to have six cultures per frog...and was amazed at that number...And yes, JaredJ, Ed and Pumilo (and others too in all probability) have been at this so long it feels as though they were never ever noobs....


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Judy S said:


> The reason I asked about how many cultures per frog was that I was recently advised to have six cultures per frog...and was amazed at that number...And yes, JaredJ, Ed and Pumilo (and others too in all probability) have been at this so long it feels as though they were never ever noobs....


Your frogs must be BIG.   I make approximately 50 to feed 115 adults and a large number of froglets. It's too many but I don't want to be caught short. Most are Tincs. I culture Hydei, wingless and Turkish Gliders. Some cultures do better then others depending on _who knows what_. lol


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

This is the only thing that intimidates me as well. 

What would your suggestion be for the amount of cultures, when to make them, how many to make etc for a pair or trio of tincs?

I also plan on having a spring tail culture and an isopod culture. 

Secondly - what role does temperature play? Should I get a heat mat? Or does room temp work. 

Not trying to thread jack - just figure that this is a good place to bring up more newbie FF culturing questions.


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

I make about two hundred cultures a week, but then I have a LOT of frogs, and I sell a bunch of those, too. I'd probably make two cultures a week for each adult frog.

I've never seemed to have too much of a problem with cold, though colder temperatures seem to mean the flies take longer to produce. Heat, though, is a killer. I wouldn't recommend putting a heat mat under a fly culture. 

My main problem was always with mold. I'd make cultures, and then half of them would end up going black or green. I've finally figured that one out and never get mold anymore, but as everyone else has said, make more than you need until you figure it out. This is really just trial and error for most of us.

As for the mold, though...

My media recipe includes methyl paraben (Josh's Frogs), potato flakes, brewer's yeast, and sugar. When I make the cultures, I use hot water mixed with a little vinegar. Between the methyl paraben and the vinegar, I never get mold any more. 

I also sprinkle a little baker's yeast on the top once the media has cooled, then add a ball of excelsior (wood wool). This seems to make a difference and increases the number of flies I get. I keep the colonies at room temperature until they're booming, then use a couple of them to make new colonies and use the others for feeding. 

I'm sure others have better tips, but this seems to have been working for me.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

evolvstlldartfrogs said:


> I make about two hundred cultures a week, but then I have a LOT of frogs, and I sell a bunch of those, too. I'd probably make two cultures a week for each adult frog.
> 
> I've never seemed to have too much of a problem with cold, though colder temperatures seem to mean the flies take longer to produce. Heat, though, is a killer. I wouldn't recommend putting a heat mat under a fly culture.
> 
> ...


That's the same recipe I'm going to be using but cinnamon instead of methyl paraben. And im using powdered sugar also.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> The reason I asked about how many cultures per frog was that I was recently advised to have six cultures per frog...and was amazed at that number...And yes, JaredJ, Ed and Pumilo (and others too in all probability) have been at this so long it feels as though they were never ever noobs....


Six cultures per frog is more than a little excessive.. For those starting out, I would suggest as a maximum one culture per frog... and probably one culture per two frogs. 

Ed


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Ed said:


> Six cultures per frog is more than a little excessive.. For those starting out, I would suggest as a maximum one culture per frog... and probably one culture per two frogs.
> 
> Ed


I plan on keeping cultures running for at least two months before buying frogs. Wont keep them longer than 28 days. 

Ill start with two, split them at 7-10 days...how many should be running total at once for my two frogs?

Will a ten culture kit suffice?

Thanks


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pacblu202 said:


> That's the same recipe I'm going to be using but cinnamon instead of methyl paraben. And im using powdered sugar also.


cinnamon? for mold control? Wow when did somone figure this out? I always wondered why cinnamon bread never got moldy in the cabinets.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> I plan on keeping cultures running for at least two months before buying frogs. Wont keep them longer than 28 days.
> 
> Ill start with two, split them at 7-10 days...how many should be running total at once for my two frogs?
> 
> ...


I turf out my old cultures at 30 days, because of that I tend to have a total of 12- 16 FF cultures going at any one time. 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

thanks for the information...I thought maybe less would be better...so the two cultures per frog seems just about right...and having an overlap of production for a week would, if conditions were right, provide lots of flies. This whole subject seems to get revisited often...with conflicting advice...so I apologize asking for clarification. Just trying to set up a rhythm of production to have enough of the right foods is a definite learning curve...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> thanks for the information...I thought maybe less would be better...so the two cultures per frog seems just about right...and having an overlap of production for a week would, if conditions were right, provide lots of flies. This whole subject seems to get revisited often...with conflicting advice...so I apologize asking for clarification. Just trying to set up a rhythm of production to have enough of the right foods is a definite learning curve...


Judy, 
Don't sweat it.. as with many other things this topic does contain a fair bit of conflicting information usually oriented around maximizing production (which is pretty subjective). This has lead to a lot of practices ending up as dogma which can be very conflicting. For example, a number of people add vinegar to thier media with the idea that the acidity of the vinegar reduces mold growth, however one of the molds that is a main problem in the cultures (black mold) is Aspergillus niger which actually does just fine in pHs down to around 2.5-3..which is far more acidic than the shift in pH supplied by vinegar (distilled white vinegar by itself has a pH of around 2.5 but this is modified by the pH of the potato flakes (which should be between 5 and 6) so the resulting pH is going to be well above the pH minimum for growth of A. niger and as such doesn't stop A. niger from growing in a culture containing vinegar. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

And that is one mold NO one would want in their house...Yes, I have had the apple vinegar also suggested, and have used it in some cultures I just started..


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

So what would you suggest for mold if vinegar wont work?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> So what would you suggest for mold if vinegar wont work?


Clean all tools before making them and then after you can microwave the cultures.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

For how long?

After you are done with the culture to sterilize the waste, or right after making it to sterilize before frogs go in?

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> For how long?
> 
> After you are done with the culture to sterilize the waste, or right after making it to sterilize before frogs go in?
> 
> Thanks


 
Okay, why would frogs be going into a fruit fly culture? I'm not sure I understand you here... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> So what would you suggest for mold if vinegar wont work?


Glenn covered the most important thing, keeping it clean is the best start you can make. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> And that is one mold NO one would want in their house...Yes, I have had the apple vinegar also suggested, and have used it in some cultures I just started..


Using it really won't hurt but if the pH is too low (and this is how A. niger outcompetes other fungi and microbes), then you also inhibit yeast growth as well as other microbes which can lower fly production since protien is a limiting nutrient in the cultures. 

Pretty much everyone has A. niger in thier house. The black spots on onion you purchase in the super market are often A. niger..... 

Ed


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> For how long?


I microwave mine for 45 seconds each. They're hot when they come out! Keep in mind that every microwave is different though.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Ed said:


> Okay, why would frogs be going into a fruit fly culture? I'm not sure I understand you here...
> 
> Ed


Whoops - flies. I shouldnt have multiple tabs open at once I guess.


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