# Frogs in high temps



## Kgbower (Jul 9, 2009)

I was talking to a fellow frogger locally and he was telling me that he has kept vittatus and azureus at temps in the mid to upper 80s during the summer and has had no problems for about 3 years now, just wondering how/if this was possible.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

At times my temps. in the summer will hit 80-82 and THAT freaks me out.
I would advise against upper 80`s.
But hey, that`s just me.

John


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

You can keep some frogs at temps that high for short spans of time (not sure what that span is) and their metabolism will increase---they'll need more food and they'll be more active as a result, but this may shorten their life over the long haul. 
Fish do this, too.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

80's is not good.

Upper 80's is a death sentence in most cases.


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

Depending on what region the morph is from, I think that some can tolerate low 80's where others can't. I have had Tinctorius alanis that had equilibrium problems from the tank temps only getting to around 83, but now is fine since I moved him to a cooler tank. I moved my nicaraguan auratus to the alanis's previous tank and it does not seem to be affected by higher temps, though I only allow it to reach 81 or so now by adding a cooling fan. I also feel that some darts from the same morph can tolerate different ranges of temps depending on what elevation the line was collected from. Since it is almost impossible to determing the collection data on most CB darts, it is safer to stay in the cooler ranges. A sign to watch for if the darts are getting too hot is if they lay flat on the ground when the aren't being submissive to another frog. They also will hang out near or in the water constantly. If they are exposed to temps that stresses them out for too long of a period of time it can kill them.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

There are obviously going to be instances in which someone can do something they shouldn't and get away with it. Watch 1,000 Ways To Die; at the very end they always show you an instance in which someone has EVERY reason to die and comes away with injuries that will usually completely heal.... It's important to realize, however, that this is almost always the exception. 

If my temps rise to higher than 79 I start freaking out and trying to find a way to cool down my tanks. Not just because of the potential for death, but because if they live there could be developmental problems. Sean Stew waited to ship my last shipment of frogs because temps that are too high or too low can affect the overall growth and/or development of juvenile frogs. I'd expect extreme temperatures to decrease the overall lifespan of the frogs.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Its best to stay within the target range for individual species. I wouldn't worry if you reach 80 degrees for tincs. I would only be concerned if the temperature gets above 82 degrees for extended periods of time.

I have known some people that had tincs experience temps in the mid eighties all summer, but they had a screen lid. There is a hypothesis circulating that CO2 buildup from bacteria in a standard aquarium could be one possible reason why frogs may suffer at higher temperatures-- not necessarily the temperature itself.

Also, frogs that are not accustomed to higher temperatures could experience shock if changes are not adjusted slowly. I know captive bred mantellas are often more tolerant of warmer conditions then WC animals, because they're raised at higher temperatures and become accustomed to it.

Tincs prefer it cooler than 80 degrees, but I wouldn't get too concerned if it stays that way during the summer. I assume the temperature IS dropping at night in your tanks. If heat continues to be a problem, consider using a different type of lighting during the summer time.

Of course, if you do see any behavioral/ health issues, then you probably need to cool down your tanks. Every situation is different. Too cool is better than too warm.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rain_Frog said:


> I have known some people that had tincs experience temps in the mid eighties all summer, but they had a screen lid. There is a hypothesis circulating that CO2 buildup from bacteria in a standard aquarium could be one possible reason why frogs may suffer at higher temperatures-- not necessarily the temperature itself.


Thats interesting....I have heard that as well.

Good comment.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

My tanks get up to the mid 80s usually during the summer months even with the AC running int he room, however all the tanks are well vented during these summer months and have good air flow with a large floor fan move the air around.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Julio said:


> *well vented* during these summer months and have *good air flow* .


I think that's key......


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

My imi tank gets up to 82 every day and they dont mind it. A couple weeks ago I lost an imi when the viv was ~91 for 2 days straight, not really dropping at night.
-mark


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## Kgbower (Jul 9, 2009)

how do you keep the humidity up in the tank while also keeping it ventilated? Also any tricks to cool a tanks without a/c my power bill a is around 1k a month(California is great) and the less a/c the better. I have been running a fans in the room and placing ice packs on top of the glass tops.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Also, if you have a good deal of leaf litter in your tanks, the breakdown of this by the creatures which eat it causes a buildup of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the tank, and without good ventilation it can harm the frogs. Common symptoms are flipping onto their backs, passing out/lethargy, spasming and outstretched legs, especially if it happens to them all at once. Or, they may be found dead if their tank was left closed for a few days due to this effect (especially if there is little to no plants in the tank, as in the case of a quarantine or breeding setup).
Ventilation is a must as far as I'm concerned...


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## dvknight (Feb 20, 2004)

I use the Zoo Med hygrostat with the sensor at the top of the terrarium (18x18x24). I have a large amount of pc lighting which drives the temp up. When the the temp at this level hits 86 (temps are between 75-80 in various other parts of the enclosure), the device turns on 4 ventation fans on the back of the hood, under the lights. I have a glass top, with a 2 inch section of screen. The fans do a remarkable job of not only cooling, but providing much needed air circulation. I have the humidity portion of the controlled hooked up to a humidifier to maintain 80%. Remember, this is at the high reaches of the terrarium. Humidity is higher (drip wall/pool) and temps lower in other spots. There is a 10 degree drop during their nightime (I have them on a reverse cycle).

The key is microclimates and giving the frogs options. This is coming from someone who used to keep all my frogs in sealed aquariums with central ac set at 75. The ecosystem I use now promotes better plant growth and the frogs seem more active. The tank even smells healthier.

With all the different options, i'd like to point out that I frequently see my Bastis hanging out on the tillandsias in the hottest/driest parts of the terrarium. For anyone else that's been to Bastimentos, we know that the frogs there are hopping around in dry sand in full sun, with temps going over 85.

To pigeon hole all frogs to a 75-78 temperature range is not accurate for low land species.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

dvknight said:


> To pigeon hole all frogs to a 75-78 temperature range is not accurate for low land species.


 
What we all have to remember, is that this forum has a high percentage of newbie traffic who does not have access to electronic equiptment or perhaps, even dial gauges. They probably even have to research the husbandry term "microclimate".

They need to be provided with a good, non specific, all-round temp that will give them a chance to have good results while they accumulate experience and knowledge.

That we say...."keep the temps under 80F and try for temps @ 75F ect ect", we are trying to give them a decent starting point.

That said.....I would to see a pic of your automated set-up.....sounds awesome.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Just checked Google Earth and found all tinctorius habitat falls within about 6 degrees of the Equator and less than 1000 feet above sea level. Daytime temps year round can range into the nineties with oppressive humidity.

As others have said, it seems that micro-habitats and CO2 build-up in the tanks are probably a greater concerns than just temperatures. That said, I try to keep my tincs at temps below 80 degrees, as this seems to keep stress down generally and breeding up specifically (during the Summer months).


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## Kgbower (Jul 9, 2009)

I am glad I started this topic it has been very educational, that is amazing how warm of temps they survive in, in the wild. The CO2 theory/ fact makes perfect sense when I think about it. 

This site is a great outlet to expand our knowledge especially for newbs like myself!


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

How many people have had actual experience losing a frog to high temps? I think a lot have, which is why people are so adamant about making sure people keep them cool. I lost one a few weeks ago in with a high temp of around ~92, in an actively ventilated viv, so I know it was the heat and not CO2.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I actually just returned from a mini 2 day vacation to find the temps. in my Leuc. viv. at 85 degrees!!
Thankfully they are ok.
Well, one is anyway, I haven`t seen the other one yet.

John


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

markbudde said:


> How many people have had actual experience losing a frog to high temps? I think a lot have, which is why people are so adamant about making sure people keep them cool. I lost one a few weeks ago in with a high temp of around ~92, in an actively ventilated viv, so I know it was the heat and not CO2.


Does almost count?


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

> Does almost count?


So you were able to recover the frog left in the car?!? Congrats!


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## Ken (Jun 21, 2009)

I've been struggling to keep my temps down, and it is quite a challenge. Living in AZ, venting really isn't an option because it would then be impossible to maintain humidity. 

I've had my tincs only a week now, (insert grain of salt here) but the 4 of them stay toward the higher portion of their viv closer to the lights, as opposed to the lower section near the water pool. My daytime temps can swing between 78-82 with the lights 3-4 inches above the tank (2x 26W CFL) and a 6" fan blowing across the light fixture. I'm not saying it means anything, but for what its worth I thought I'd add it to the conversation. Temperature management is my biggest concern so far.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I have exo's and with all of them the front part of the screen is completely open. I'm able to maintain 80% - 85% humidity. I have a lot of wood in each viv that holds moisture. The misting nozzles are pointed at the wood to soak it as much as possible. The wood releases moisture into the air between mistings and there's lots of ventilation for the frogs and plants.


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## Energy (Jul 17, 2009)

NOOBIE here- I hike the jungles in Costa Rica and own tons of land there. I have lots of Poison dart frogs roaming around and I can tell you it's hot and humid. Even at ground level it's warm. Shouldn't they be able to handle it back here?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Energy said:


> NOOBIE here- I hike the jungles in Costa Rica and own tons of land there. I have lots of Poison dart frogs roaming around and I can tell you it's hot and humid. Even at ground level it's warm. Shouldn't they be able to handle it back here?


 
Can......you.......please...


Adopt me?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

One thing to keep in mind is that temperatures drop at night. Also, even though it may be in the nineties in the wild, there are microclimates available for animals to take shelter. Remember, the frogs are living under the forest canopy-- not by the beach in full sun in Rio De Janeiro. 

Also, dart frogs aren't like Phyllomedusa sauvageii which will sit exposed in open sunlight.

Carbon dioxide is a factor, but I also think frogs are utilizing evaporative cooling from their moist skins with good air circulation. Humans will quickly overheat if they do not sweat. Dogs with pushed in faces can get heatstroke because they do not have the same panting efficiency as say, a labrador.

Since frogs can dehydrate though, I probably would be running a misting system, water feature, or spray a lot if temps aren't getting too high ahd I have a lot of ventilation.


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## fishieness (Jun 26, 2009)

Energy said:


> NOOBIE here- I hike the jungles in Costa Rica and own tons of land there. I have lots of Poison dart frogs roaming around and I can tell you it's hot and humid. Even at ground level it's warm. Shouldn't they be able to handle it back here?


I believe that you fill find that many species from costa rica, such as some of the pumilios, people do recommend keeping them at higher temps. I have been reading around before I get my first pair, and many people are keeping their vivs in the low 80s.
Although I'm sure you can tell me that it gets hotter there... But still.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is a wide variety of studies done on Tmax on various amphibians and there are two strong trends that occur in Tmax variations. These studies demonstrate that there can be significant tolerance to temperature variations depending on 1) the temperature at which the amphibian was acclimated (amphibians adapted to warmer temperatures tend to tolerate higher Tmax than ones initially acclimated to lower temperatures), and/or the rate at which the temperature changes. As a further issue, time at the higher temperature can increase mortality. 

One of the reason we may see so many problems in species in captivity is that we tend to keep them around 74 F as a constant temperature and then something happens resulting in within a 24 hour period. These frogs are acclimated to a constant lower range temperature and the rapid change is a problem... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, what's your opinion about CO2, airflow, and evaporative cooling effect from amphibian skin?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I thought I had posted this here before 
Carbon Dioxide 1

I have significant concerns with the common approach of heavily sealing up terraria with a high bioload as people often fail to consider how much CO2 can be produced by plants at night as well as microbial action in the substrates and other biologically active substrates. 

A screen top aquarium doesn't change the risk much unless there is some form of air circulation that will prevent the CO2 from layering up in the bottom of the tank.. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I think people underestimate the variety of microclimates that can be found in a tank as well. In just my 29 gallon bowfronts (relatively small tanks) I find a 5 degree difference between the high perches, and the pond edge. Thats a pretty big temp spread for areas no more than 16 inches apart.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> I think people underestimate the variety of microclimates that can be found in a tank as well. In just my 29 gallon bowfronts (relatively small tanks) I find a 5 degree difference between the high perches, and the pond edge. Thats a pretty big temp spread for areas no more than 16 inches apart.


However this doesn't address problems from stress due to rapid changes in temperature also you need to keep in mind that other conditions may make the lower temperature zones inappropriate for the frog even if they visually or on a basic inspection to be acceptable in our opinion. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> However this doesn't address problems from stress due to rapid changes in temperature also you need to keep in mind that other conditions may make the lower temperature zones inappropriate for the frog even if they visually or on a basic inspection to be acceptable in our opinion.
> 
> Ed


Yes, that's true, and to be honest, I have never really witnessed the frogs tring to take advantage of micro-habitats on days hotter or colder than the norm. Are you of the opinion that it's better to keep PDF's at a constant "sweet-spot" temperature, or allow their temps to wander through their acceptable range dependent on seasons (modified when too extreme)? I have experimented with this with Colubrid breeding and have a definite opinions in that arena, but I really don't know if that would be applicable here. 

I try to address stratified air quality by building tanks with screens in the front of the lids, and small fans on the back. I have the fans go off vigorously twice a day for about a minute each time in hopes of exchanging the air in the tank, or at the least, moving it around. It "monkeys" with my humidity a bit, but I believe is worth it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Oddly enough, I don't favor the idea of attempting to provide "ideal" conditions but instead prefer to provide the opportunity to access a gradient of conditions that allow the animal to achieve what it needs to meet its needs at that time. 

For example, if you temp gun some of my amphibian exhibits at work you can find a greater than 40 degree temperature gradient from the top to the surface of the substrate and I have (anecdotally) observed that different members of the population to utilize different portions of this gradient depending on a number of factors such as digestion... 

The goal of providing a variation in microclimatic niches is one of the reasons I am a big proponent of clay substrates as you can actually provide a significant moisture and humidity gradient by sculpting in bowls and hills into the terraria.. 


Ed


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