# Help against the smuggling of protected frogs



## fred (May 30, 2010)

In continuation of the other thread i started here some days ago (illegal frogs on this forum) i would like try to start this one.

The reason is that in the other thread many good ideas are appearing, but because of all the 'interference' of people who don't agree with the subject, and the length of the thread, it gets a little bit confusing, and some good ideas maybe get lost.

Asking people not to buy these illegal frogs is obviously not enough for the most people; so there must be done more.

So i would like to ask to everyone who believe there are protected frogs getting smuggled illegal, and our hobby and name as serious sincere hobbyists gets polluted with them, and this problem needs to be solved, to come together here with all the ideas they have and get 'this thing in the air'..

And i would like to ask to everybody who does not supports this statement, to respect the ones who do, and let them do their work here.
You can still express and discuss all your complaints on the other thread.

And to the moderators; please filter out and remove all the posts that don't belong here.
(like no discussions about if there are illegal frogs or not, no personal attacks or sarcastic remarks, every thing that has nothing to do with this thread; only people who want to solve this serious problem and who try to bring in constructive ideas.

The expanding smuggling going on at this moment is a very serious threat to the frog-populations in the wild and also to our hobby in general, we must act now.

Thank you.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I agree with you fred, can we also add the subject of habitat destruction/protection into it? At least for some of the more critically endangered frogs, that probably also plays a major role.


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi Chris,

I'm affraid not; this thread is not about habitat destruction like you can read.


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

ok good idea fred, this should aid in getting rid of alot of the BS.
So the ideas that sounded legit to me were;

1-creation of species/morph list with pics and their legal status (possibly adding caresheets later on as was stated in the other thread)

2-the TWI approved frog stamp

Any one else?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

fred said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> I'm affraid not; this thread is not about habitat destruction like you can read.


Comments should stay on topic but it is an open discourse. Only comments that violate the rules as stipulated will be moderated.

There are many issues at hand when it comes to smuggling, including habitat degradation, especially if the ultimate concern is to protect, and where necessary manage, remaining wild populations. 

To bound the topic by applying an arbitrary periphery is counterproductive to the larger discussion that needs to occur (and in violation of the open discourse promoted by this board). 

Namely, we must ask ourselves how do we, as both an online and in the flesh community, self-regulate our purchases in a productive way that lessens demand for smuggled frogs and/or habitat destruction. UE has demonstrated one way of moving forward for many Peruvian species. It will be interesting to see their impact on future smuggling attempts from Peru. 

What are some other alternatives? Yes, we can self-police our peers and report suspect incidents to the appropriate authorities. However, a few cases every now and then (when considered in the larger context) will have very little impact on the larger issue. Honestly, folks will always participate in criminal activity, irrespective of the consequences. 

In my opinion, our emphasis should focus less on illegal or suspect frogs (or those in legal limbo like many Brazilian sp.) already in the country and more on potential legal avenues that we can pursue, as a community, to undercut the market for smuggled frogs.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You should know you will have no effect as to what gets smuggled into the US as we the hobbyists here cant even prevent it. As long as some wil buy them they will arrive here. The first step should be bettering your own system of not allowing them out of your own country. Make it too pricey and difficult to get them out. That is where change should begin.
Michael


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

1. Register all frogs.

To begin with; give everyone the chance to register their frogs and give an opening date (like right now) and a deadline.
Every frog not registered before the deadline will be considered illegal.

Also how and where the frogs were obtained should be in the register.
In this way recently smuggled frogs can be detected and action can be taken to stop these smugglers.

2. Make it an obligation to have a bookkeeping of all your frogs; every frog should have a ID, when they get born, die, or get sold/ exchanged.
Every frog without ID is illegal.

Very rare and/or difficult/slow breeding frogs should have extra notification/ control and placed on a special list.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

fred said:


> 1. Register all frogs.
> 
> To begin with; give everyone the chance to register their frogs and give an opening date (like right now) and a deadline.
> Every frog not registered before the deadline will be considered illegal.
> ...



First of all noone is going to attemp to register an illegal frog and if they did it would probably be laundered through legal ones of the same species.
Second to make every uregistered frog illegal is stupid and impossible. Common hobbyists do not breed them and sell them with intent of having to do alot of extra paperwork. You cant make a law from nothing.
You are trying to make this hobby and buisness a bigger issue than it is. How do you enforce a rule to a 16 yearold with a frog? You cant make him list where, when and who and them expect them to track all offspring dead or alive.The work needs to start at ground zero of these frogs, not here. If they are being smuggled out they will end up here and everywhere. You need to press your own people to stop smuggling as we cant stop it from here.
I agree with Id cards and all pertaining info on them but this again will not help smuggling illegal frogs.
Michael


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

fred said:


> 1. Register all frogs.
> 
> To begin with; give everyone the chance to register their frogs and give an opening date (like right now) and a deadline.
> Every frog not registered before the deadline will be considered illegal.
> ...


Wait, so if I don't put my frogs on this list, I get fined, or do my frogs get taken away? Think this through a little clearer, bud. We are all for STOPPING illegal frogs FROM COMING IN, but you don't have to take away what we have had and enjoyed in our homes.



> 2. Make it an obligation to have a bookkeeping of all your frogs; every frog should have a ID, when they get born, die, or get sold/ exchanged.
> Every frog without ID is illegal.


I like the cataloging idea, but the illegal part? Still not right; I think it would be in the discretion of the owner to even consider "registering" frogs.

I hope I am not putting in any negative or bad vibes into this new thread - I am just naturally blunt in character, which might get to some people. Therefore, I will just say that your proposal needs a lot of help and opinions before any such regulation should lift from the ground.

Thanks.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

fred, how many threads do you really need to have about the same topic??


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

The posts from Michael an Julio are on the wrong thread; this one is not ment to discuss the statement, but to get people who want to try achieve something together with their constructive ideas.


The meaning is to keep this thread clear, so we can work with it.

Offcouse there is a lot of work to be done, everywhere, and this thread is about what to do, and how to do it.
It's all open.

Bring in the ideas; that's the only way to reach something, and to be an example for others.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I honestly believe he was thinking he could put together a collective thread of rules and regs to govern us by. I think there is a huge issue with other coutries trying to set rules for us when GROUND ZERO of this issue is based where he is from. Stop the illegal exporting, stop the smugglers within your own borders and that will be a good start.. They are the problem not the average hobbyists unknowingly buying smuggled frogs and bloodlines. 
Michael


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

fred said:


> The posts from Michael an Julio are on the wrong thread; this one is not ment to discuss the statement, but to get people who want to try achieve something together with their constructive ideas.
> 
> 
> The meaning is to keep this thread clear, so we can work with it.
> ...


so in other words, we are not allowed to talk about the topic of the thread, mmmm OK


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

fred said:


> Bring in the ideas; that's the only way to reach something, and to be an example for others.


You want to be an example for us? Just as Michael said - Work it out in your own country, where the smuggling actually exists. Our own government here in the U.S. controls us too much, sorry.


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> I honestly believe he was thinking he could put together a collective thread of rules and regs to govern us by. I think there is a huge issue with other coutries trying to set rules for us when GROUND ZERO of this issue is based where he is from. Stop the illegal exporting, stop the smugglers within your own borders and that will be a good start.. They are the problem not the average hobbyists unknowingly buying smuggled frogs and bloodlines.
> Michael



There is no way to stop smuggling period. Hell people poach elephants in africa and armed guards cant stop that. Thats a 5 ton animal not a 2 inch frog. So this idea of stopping it at ground zero is absurd. Yes there are things that could be done to lessen the degree of smuggling but we can not assure it will stop. We must educate the hobby on what not to purchase in the future, whats here is not going anywhere. This is the idea behind the ID cards, once we know what is all here thats not obviously illegal we can educate our hobby to not purchase animals that have not arrived legally. by doing so we can promote sustainable operations.

The registration idea is interesting, it could be effective if amnesty was granted for those that registered their illegal frogs. Were not talking about frogs of questionable origin as there is nothing that can be done about them besides document it and be transparent about the past issues.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

§lipperhead said:


> You want to be an example for us? Just as Michael said - Work it out in your own country, where the smuggling actually exists. Our own government here in the U.S. controls us too much, sorry.


Yep. I'll state that obviously correct answer as an 'idea'.

Goal: Prevent smuggling and illegal removal of endangered animals at the source of those removal efforts. (i.e. in Columbia for Columbian frogs, in Peru for Peruvian frogs, etc.)

Ideas on how to accomplish goal: 

#1 Start a community awareness program in Columbia (and other areas that face severe smuggling) that teaches the locals about what is happening and why it shouldn't be happening. This would need to be done, obviously, by someone who lives in the area, has knowledge on the subject, and cares about the animals in question. I'd not sure who would fit all those requirements, do you have any ideas Fred?

#2 Monitor sites where known smuggling exists and put pressure on local officials to enforce local laws on smuggling. Obviously this too would need to be performed by someone who lives in the area. Hopefully Fred has some ideas on where to locate appropriate individuals.

There are a couple very valid ideas to get started. Anyone have any others? ;-)


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I see again that Fred is upset with ideas different than his, we should be careful on this slippery slope on this bandwagon not to give up our rights to privacy, and this seems wrong that a person from another country is telling us what we should do to fix the problem when they cannot take care of it on their end at all, then apparently wants to censor views that do not match his, claiming they cloud the big picture. I for one do not want Big Brother of any kind watching over my back any more than we have now, this is a hobby, should be enjoyable, not political pitting sides against sides, I think the most effort has to be applied in the country of origin, but being in there current situations I do not think the border corruption will ever stop so this is a vicious circle of activity.I say everyone use their best judgement when aquiring new frogs and do their best not to support smugglers, Bill


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

billschwinn said:


> I think the most effort has to be applied in the country of origin, but being in their current situation I do not think the border corruption will ever stop, so this is a vicious circle of activity. I say everyone use their best judgment when aquiring new frogs and do their best not to support smugglers.


Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner folks! 

With the exception of those with a lot of knowledge on the subject, and those individuals who LIVE in the actual countries of origin, this is the best that we can do as average hobbyists.

If any organization steps up as some have in other countries, I will contribute. Perhaps Fred knows of someone or some organization like that in Columbia?


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Hi Will,
I didn't say that i want to be an example for you, i ment: you can be an example for others.

Hi Bryce,

Offcourse smuggling can never be stopped totally, that's indeed very unlikely.
I agree with you.
And keep up your good ideas!
Lets hope the others come with there good ideas and input too.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

puckplaya32 said:


> There is no way to stop smuggling period. Hell people poach elephants in africa and armed guards cant stop that. Thats a 5 ton animal not a 2 inch frog. So this idea of stopping it at ground zero is absurd. Yes there are things that could be done to lessen the degree of smuggling but we can not assure it will stop. We must educate the hobby on what not to purchase in the future, whats here is not going anywhere. This is the idea behind the ID cards, once we know what is all here thats not obviously illegal we can educate our hobby to not purchase animals that have not arrived legally. by doing so we can promote sustainable operations.
> 
> The registration idea is interesting, it could be effective if amnesty was granted for those that registered their illegal frogs. Were not talking about frogs of questionable origin as there is nothing that can be done about them besides document it and be transparent about the past issues.


Of course we cant stop all of the smuggling but if our gov. lets these things in how do you expect the average hobbyists to tell a smuggled frog from a cb legal one? This issue cannot begin as our problem. We are the end of the problem. Would we call up Colombia if we saw a few postings of a US endangered species? Would we tell them to stop breeding and selling it while demanding to see proof its legally aquired and then go on the attack. No we would up the customs work and work within our own borders to stop them from getting out.
The registration will never work as a way to figure out what is smuggled. There are too many unknowns in this hobby like simple breeder line, import date and locale info that many do not ask for. How do you even deal with herp shows. Have you ever vended one because I have and I can tell you many show up with cash and buy buy buy from everyone. There is no time to hand a written out reciept with all required info to make this work. Sales would drop and customers would get increasingly mad at having to stand in lines at shows to even look at whats availible and possibly buy. A law like this would be a very big problem to deal with. There are a few registries for frogs that cant even handle aquiring the needed info and you or Fred thinks puting one together with intensions of catching the smuggled ones will work.

Michael


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Well, it looks like some childish people here are capable to ruin a serious thread, so this isn't going to get anything in this way.

Talking about censorship; this is also a way to make things impossible.

Very intelligent and adult.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I haven't had the time to read beyond the first page (will do that later today), but wanted to let you know that TWI is also interested in helping produce the poster/cards that have been mentioned, and I have already been contacted by people willing to help with it.


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

MrBiggs said:


> Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner folks!
> 
> With the exception of those with a lot of knowledge on the subject, and those individuals who LIVE in the actual countries of origin, this is the best that we can do as average hobbyists.
> 
> If any organization steps up as some have in other countries, I will contribute. Perhaps Fred knows of someone or some organization like that in Columbia?


Purchasing frogs with best judgement is not all that the average hobbyiest can do, but it is a start. The problem is not all the information on each species/morph is readily available to these hobbyiest if they refuse to do research and thus a best judgement decision is not usually made. The best a hobbyiest can do is support only frogs that come from sustainable programs, these programs also support conservation.

I dont like the idea of getting policed by the government either especially considering all the groups that are already trying to shut down the exotic pet circles. But i dont think just because we arent being regulated, we shouldnt try to regulate ourselves on a personal level. Any ideas along those lines?


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

I have had this idea for a while now, but it looks like other countries might be doing something similar(Netherlands with their bookkeeping). Here it is.

I am going to use a rare(in the hobby) frog from a closed country as an example. Let's say somebody sets up a legal farm within Costa Rica and is breeding Oophaga granuliferus(the same way Mark does with frogs in Peru). When the offspring are ready to be imported to the country (USA in this scenario) they get a number. The number will be based on who the parents are. This will help with breeding to maximize the genetics. Each person that buys one of these frogs will get his/her name listed by each frog's number. When the person who bought the original imported frog and has offspring, they will register each froglet. If they decide to sell a frog the new person will get his/her name next to that frogs number. Etc, etc. 

Each person that buys a frog will have to sign a contract (similar to when buying an AKG showdog. Those contracts sometimes state that you will not show the dog, have it spayed/neurtered, or it will get taken away) that states they will register each frog and update status/ownership. I am not if you could take the frog away from the person and who would regulate that, but at least the frogs produced that are not registered would not get a number. This will help when someone wants to purchase a frog. They would know that if there is no number associated with that frog then it could possibly be smuggled. If it has a number, but the number if fake, then they would not find the number or have a different person listed under seller/owner. Again, they would know that it could have been smuggled. They would be able to look up on a chart or database to search this information. I was thinking an organization like TWI would be able to set up and maintain this database (similar to ASN) 

This is not perfect. What do we do about frogs that are already in the hobby legally that were not a recent import? I know there are some "old timers" that are breeding some of early imports (legal) of Oophaga granuliferus. Do these get grandfathered in and given a number? Would this be for new/rare frog or all of them?

Sorry if this is not coherent, I was writing this in between patients and it took me an hour and a half to just get these thoughts out. 

Dave


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

No way I would support forced registration of frogs within a collection. Might as well tattoo barcodes on the little buggers while you're at it. 

It will take a multitude of approaches along the entire, illegal supply chain, to have the greatest effect. 

On the demand side, I support education, information sharing, and creating a community atmosphere that generally opposes it. That's it, nothing more. I also have concerns about the "seal of approval" idea. Any and all news that provide factual accounts of illegal trade, can be posted in the DB Science and Conservation section. If you find a relevant news article, and/or have pictures of recently smuggled species/morphs, post it. This will both provide the tools for people to make informed decisions, and set the desired tone within the community. 

Don't know much more about the other parts of the chain.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

There are quite a few things wrong with this thread, but here's the one I'd like to point out:



fred said:


> The posts from Michael an Julio are on the wrong thread; this one is not ment to discuss the statement, but to get people who want to try achieve something together with their constructive ideas.


The post you were talking about from Michael was Michael's retort to your post about making all frogs not registered illegal. Blunt as Michael's post may have been, it was nothing more than a criticism (and a constructive one, IMO) of the idea that you put forth. To be constructive does not necessarily require one to put forth an idea, but also includes showing fallacies in another's idea. Someone can take that criticism as offensive because that person liked their idea and doesn't want it to get thrown under the bus, or that same person can take that criticism and _use_ it to make revisions to the idea so the idea becomes even stronger.

And, for the record, I'm inclined to agree with Julio and Michael. First, how many threads do you need about the same subject? Second, Michael is right. That kind of tracking needed to be done at ground zero. It's a lot easier to track a frog forward than it is to do so backward. _Forcing_ someone to file paperwork on their frogs isn't going to win you any points among the frogging community, and I assume that the paperwork filed would require proof of their legality which in many cases simply isn't available (doesn't mean they're illegal, it just means that after so many generations or after breeders coming in and out of the hobby it's hard to trace the frog's lineage). I think it would result in many legal frogs _appearing_ to be illegal. I think this is why ASN is going to be successful. They're not forcing the registration of our frogs down our throats, but, at least in my opinion, it's a benefit to have your frogs registered with the ASN as they're often times easier to sell (especially to the more experienced hobbyists who care about where their frogs are coming from).

I'd also like to echo stemcellular. The issue shouldn't be illegal frogs already in the country, the damage has already been done and there's nothing we can do to reverse it. The issue should be preventing illegal frogs from coming into the hobby in the future. I think one of the best and realistic methods of doing this is to provide legal access to frogs and finding ways (perhaps breeding projects?) for those frogs to be readily available at a reasonable rate. I don't think we need to entirely undercut the smugglers, but if we can show that the frogs coming in are legal and provide those frogs at a reasonable rate I think most hobbyists will be inclined to purchase the frogs of a verified origin.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

fred said:


> Well, it looks like some childish people here are capable to ruin a serious thread, so this isn't going to get anything in this way.
> 
> Talking about censorship; this is also a way to make things impossible.
> 
> Very intelligent and adult.


Counters to your thoughts should be excepted and not ruled childish or unneeded. Thesimple fact to this is we can all ONLY work to better our own locale situations. You cannot throw out a set of rules and laws and expect us to do what you want. I would consider our end of this hobby to be the most respected or advanced out there. Maybe we should give you a few rules and laws to live by.
Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

puckplaya32 said:


> There is no way to stop smuggling period. Hell people poach elephants in africa and armed guards cant stop that. Thats a 5 ton animal not a 2 inch frog. So this idea of stopping it at ground zero is absurd. Yes there are things that could be done to lessen the degree of smuggling but we can not assure it will stop. We must educate the hobby on what not to purchase in the future, whats here is not going anywhere. This is the idea behind the ID cards, once we know what is all here thats not obviously illegal we can educate our hobby to not purchase animals that have not arrived legally. by doing so we can promote sustainable operations.
> 
> The registration idea is interesting, it could be effective if amnesty was granted for those that registered their illegal frogs. Were not talking about frogs of questionable origin as there is nothing that can be done about them besides document it and be transparent about the past issues.



While Australia has not been able to totally stop smuggling from thier country, they oddly enough have a good track record of busting smugglers.. Why can't a similar process be put in place for Colombia 

The elephant example isn't the best example as most of the poaching is done locally and there are currently warehouses full of confiscated and collected ivory. Most of the higher end smuggling seems to be under the disguise of tourists (ala Australia smuggling) and not as part of a higher order smuggling like drug running. If they increased surveillence (again ala Austrialian model) and then searched any packages they try to send and search them at the airport, they would catch a lot more of the smugglers and increase any risks. From what Fred is saying it sounds like smuggling frogs from Colombia is a low risk high profit prospect.. 

Ed


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I am curious, what is being done in detail to stop smuggling of frogs, is Fred's group trying anything new or more effective than in the past to help stop the problem in the country of origin? This question is not an attack, I am curious and do not recall seeing an explanation of my question, Bill PS- in my mind the governments down there can't stop Tons of drugs, how can they realistically stop a suitcase of frogs. Should they post guards around frog habitat maybe?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

billschwinn said:


> I am curious, what is being done in detail to stop smuggling of frogs, is Fred's group trying anything new or more effective than in the past to help stop the problem in the country of origin? This question is not an attack, I am curious and do not recall seeing an explanation of my question, Bill PS- in my mind the governments down there can't stop Tons of drugs, how can they realistically stop a suitcase of frogs. Should they post guards around frog habitat maybe?


That's part of the type of idea I had - some type of private/government cooperative conservation/habitat protection/repopulation effort, but for some reason people seem to think it's a horrible idea? Maybe it is, but show me why.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

ChrisK said:


> That's part of the type of idea I had - some type of private/government cooperative conservation/habitat protection/repopulation effort, but for some reason people seem to think it's a horrible idea? Maybe it is, but show me why.


Chris for some reason when it comes to Amhbians repopulation programs are not very common a prime example is the golden atelopus which is easily bred in captivity, for some reason the people that sit in on these committee are too slow to get things going


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Julio said:


> Chris for some reason when it comes to Amhbians repopulation programs are not very common a prime example is the golden atelopus which is easily bred in captivity, for some reason the people that sit in on these committee are too slow to get things going


Well I definitely wouldn't mind nominating fred to spearhead the effort.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> I am curious, what is being done in detail to stop smuggling of frogs, is Fred's group trying anything new or more effective than in the past to help stop the problem in the country of origin? This question is not an attack, I am curious and do not recall seeing an explanation of my question, Bill PS- in my mind the governments down there can't stop Tons of drugs, how can they realistically stop a suitcase of frogs. Should they post guards around frog habitat maybe?


Somehow I am dubious that the frog smugglers have thier own runways, private planes, and boats to get the frogs out of the country. I also doubt that the frog smugglers are paying locals to backpack the frogs out to where they can be loaded into those special conviences.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> Chris for some reason when it comes to Amhbians repopulation programs are not very common a prime example is the golden atelopus which is easily bred in captivity, for some reason the people that sit in on these committee are too slow to get things going


Why should they release a frog into an area where it is likely to just get wiped out by chytrid? 
I'm sure I posted somewhere else on here the logistics that are needed and for some reason, money is one of the major problems.... 

There are a number of release programs like Crested Toads, Midwife toads.. Chiricahua Leopard Frog, Northern Leopard frogs to name a handful off the top of my head... 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well yes i know about the chytrid problem, but with the sylvaticas and histos i think that is the problem, i was talking to Mark Peper last week about this, the prob is that they are clearing out their habitat, but there are a lot of logistics of reintroducing captive animals back into the wild as you stated.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed, my point was if they cannot stop the large volume of drugs surely they can't stop a lone suitcase, I am sure everyone involved at whatever levels of checks and balances has their palm greased, I know the frogs don't have their own runways and such, different contraband, different tactics, end result the same, product moved!


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

fred said:


> The reason is that in the other thread many good ideas are appearing, but because of all the 'interference' of people who don't agree with the subject, and the length of the thread, it gets a little bit confusing, and some good ideas maybe get lost.
> ...
> And to the moderators; please filter out and remove all the posts that don't belong here.


Silencing discourse, huh? 

In my opinion - governmental control is never the answer. Forced registrations of animals is never a step in the right direction. People have opinions - and anyone has the right to disagree and SPEAK his/her mind. We've got enough issues with dangerous "exotic animal" legislation already - we don't need any more!!!

If TWI keeps on the track they are currently on - it should at least HELP the situation. Frogs that are bred with a TWI/ASN numbers already have a higher value in the hobby - if TWI takes a solid stance on illegal frogs - it will help the situation at least a little.

Honestly an educated consumer is really at least a step towards a solution. There are many GOOD breeders out there who don't sell WC endangered animals. There are also many breeders out there who don't sell any WC animals at all! Once the consumer knows the risks/legality/moral issues behind buying these animals - I think that'll really help. It's no solution - but nobody believes smuggling will ever 100% stop. It's impossible. If the demand goes away for WC endangered animals - the supply will follow.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> Ed, my point was if they cannot stop the large volume of drugs surely they can't stop a lone suitcase, I am sure everyone involved at whatever levels of checks and balances has their palm greased, I know the frogs don't have their own runways and such, different contraband, different tactics, end result the same, product moved!


That is why I referenced Australia. Known herp smugglers are often put under survillence once they come off the plane. They are searched before they get back on the plane. Packages that they attempt to send Fed-Ex etc are x-rayed and searched. Even a small portion of this would be able to cause problems for the smugglers and cause a decrease in the smuggling. 

Why hasn't Colombia taken issue with it under the Convention on Biological Diversity as those countries that are signatories (like Germany) that allow the destruction of biodiversity are in violation of the treaty which if pursued would allow Colombia to take action. This is not a new idea or thought... 

Ed


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed, you are right, Australia is a shining star with their protection system in comparison to any others I know of, but it is not foolproof. It is however a great model for others to follow. I still would like to know what Colombia is doing in regards to this problem, and will they be open to suggestion, can we contact them and make suggestions to better their systems of protection for the frogs, or are the powers that be satisfied as they currently have it? Bill


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Bill,

That is one of the reasons I mentioned the Convention on Biological Diversity. Both Colombia and for example Germany are signatories so it should be in effect for both. If the Colombian goverment was concerned they could try taking action under that language and the UN is finishing up the biopiracy language which would definetly give them another tool... 

I have a hard time thinking there is much in the way of control on the ground if it is so routine that the campesinos are keeping the frogs on hand.... 

Ed


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

puckplaya32 said:


> Purchasing frogs with best judgement is not all that the average hobbyiest can do, but it is a start. The problem is not all the information on each species/morph is readily available to these hobbyiest if they refuse to do research and thus a best judgement decision is not usually made. The best a hobbyiest can do is support only frogs that come from sustainable programs, these programs also support conservation.
> 
> I dont like the idea of getting policed by the government either especially considering all the groups that are already trying to shut down the exotic pet circles. But i dont think just because we arent being regulated, we shouldnt try to regulate ourselves on a personal level. Any ideas along those lines?


I'm sorry, but one of the reasons I favor a MASSIVE and comprehensive catalog of frogs species on cards and posters is because that information is not available to the average hobbyiest even if they DO research. I've looked, it's very difficult and confusing to find good and accurate information on a wide range of species.

I think that regulation lies with those in control. For example, let's say that it is discovered that all azureus in the US are illegal. (This is theoretical only.) Those people with some control over what gets posted here for sale should make the choice to close the thread, post the reason why publicly, and then permanently BAN the offender. (A warning system could be set up or it could be automatic, but that's another issue.)

That action wouldn't stop smuggling but it would at least actively discourage people from posting known illegal animals. However, because determining the actual legality of any given animal is SO difficult, few people would likely be affected by such a policy.



billschwinn said:


> I am curious, what is being done in detail to stop smuggling of frogs, is Fred's group trying anything new or more effective than in the past to help stop the problem in the country of origin? This question is not an attack, I am curious and do not recall seeing an explanation of my question.


Fred does not have a group and has taken no action whatsoever in real life, as he made clear in the other thread. His claim to fame (or claim to action rather) was starting the other thread on this topic. So you don't recall seeing an answer to that question because it was never answered.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Honestly an educated consumer is really at least a step towards a solution.


Absolutely.

And a large part of this comes down to understanding what ACTUAL conservation consists of. It seems as though people believe that just because a collector/operator provides site-specific information, that they are somehow involved in conservation. Knowing where your frog was collected from isn't necessarily helping its native population: it's simply knowing where your frog was plucked out of the wild.

Conservation is working to save and preserve a specific place and/or organisms. Just having more information about something we took from a specific place isn't necessarily conserving that specific thing. Either something needs to be going back to help that organism/place, or guidelines have to be put in place to prevent over-exploitation of it.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Fred, do you speak German? Because if you do, I think you might have a bigger impact by posting on some German forums too.

Here is the problem as I see it and how the US hobby fits in. The US hobby isn't perfect, but it's pretty good. I think in the last ~5 years there has been a paradigm shift in the US hobby (or at least on dendroboard) where people now really can't come onto a forum and brag about some rare, potentially illegal frogs they just got. I think that for many people, a rare frog (or rare anything for that matter) is a status symbol, and bragging publicly about one is part of the draw. But, people don't really do that here anymore. When is the last time someone came on dendroboard posting pics of their new mysteriosus or yellow lehmanni? Rather, people get questioned, accused, etc., and as a result there is now a stigma (as there should be) in the US associated with smuggled frogs. Hypothetical situation: if some lehmanni showed up at a US herp show, would they get purchased? Yes, but I think there would be a large group of people that would raise hell and that would probably be the end of the vendor here.

This paradigm shift seems to have started in some other countries (Holland comes to mind) but not yet in Germany. Call me naive, but I think a vocal group of like-minded hobbyists posting on German forums could start moving things in the direction of the US hobby. They need to feel shame and guilt when they buy some lehmanni at Hamm, and hopefully the eventual result will be people will start to pass on smuggled frogs and shun those who sell them. Enforcement is obviously important too but it is only part of the solution and it is the part that we as hobbyists can change the least. 

-Evan


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

Ed said:


> While Australia has not been able to totally stop smuggling from thier country, they oddly enough have a good track record of busting smugglers.. Why can't a similar process be put in place for Colombia
> 
> The elephant example isn't the best example as most of the poaching is done locally and there are currently warehouses full of confiscated and collected ivory. Most of the higher end smuggling seems to be under the disguise of tourists (ala Australia smuggling) and not as part of a higher order smuggling like drug running. If they increased surveillence (again ala Austrialian model) and then searched any packages they try to send and search them at the airport, they would catch a lot more of the smugglers and increase any risks. From what Fred is saying it sounds like smuggling frogs from Colombia is a low risk high profit prospect..
> 
> Ed


Ed I agree the elephant example may not be the best but it is the locals collecting the frogs not the smugglers just as the locals poach the elephants. The biggest difference I see is the Aussies live in a first world country that is capable of using resources to decrease smuggling, Colombia isn’t in that position.



ChrisK said:


> That's part of the type of idea I had - some type of private/government cooperative conservation/habitat protection/repopulation effort, but for some reason people seem to think it's a horrible idea? Maybe it is, but show me why.


Its not a horrible idea at all, just nothing we the hobbyiest can regulate, I don’t think the hobbys best interest is too get the govt’s too involved in regulating things



MeiKVR6 said:


> If TWI keeps on the track they are currently on - it should at least HELP the situation. Frogs that are bred with a TWI/ASN numbers already have a higher value in the hobby - if TWI takes a solid stance on illegal frogs - it will help the situation at least a little.
> QUOTE]
> 
> The problem is TWI is not a regulating body and will not take a stance on illegal frogs as was explained to me once before, they can only educate people.
> ...


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

So if I understand you correctly Travis, Fred is not in any part of the govt. of Colombia or any group down there actually doing something to help his country's wildlife,he just thought he would come to this site to tell us that we should conform to his ideas and offer no discourse or disagreement, just follow his ideas? Is this understanding correct so far? The way he presented himself had me thinking he was actually involved in helping in Colombia, Wow! Bill


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

billschwinn said:


> So if I understand you correctly Travis, Fred is not in any part of the govt. of Colombia or any group down there actually doing something to help his country's wildlife,he just thought he would come to this site to tell us that we should conform to his ideas and offer no discourse or disagreement, just follow his ideas? Is this understanding correct so far? The way he presented himself had me thinking he was actually involved in helping in Colombia, Wow! Bill


What is the point in these types of posts? (your not the only one doing it) It helps no one, maybe he is just concerned and would like to see what the US hobby has for suggestions to aid in the problem. Is it too much to quit asking Fred directly about whether hes spear heading an organization (it does not appear he is, nor are 99% of us on this forum) and focus on the topic of the forum. Have any constructive ideas or constructive criticism of any of the ideas presented?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

If he were some type of official I think it would have been thrown up with all the other BS he has offered and ordered on us. My guess is he tried this elsewhere already and moved on as his way of posting sounds prepared.
To come he ''I know its a world wide forum'' and to order US citezen around and offer nothing but the third degree on some of us is just what I said, BS.
If he were really interested in stopping this he would join the fight on his end and support ours, not second guess it and make new regulations and laws for us to follow.
Im finished with these threads, they are going in circles.

Michael


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> I think there is a huge issue with other coutries trying to set rules for us when GROUND ZERO of this issue is based where he is from. Stop the illegal exporting, stop the smugglers within your own borders and that will be a good start.. They are the problem not the average hobbyists unknowingly buying smuggled frogs and bloodlines.
> Michael


stopping the smuggling in columbia would be great...but they cant even stop the drugs from leaving. how do you expect them to get some little frogs?

the CONSUMERS control the market. 



§lipperhead said:


> You want to be an example for us? Just as Michael said - Work it out in your own country, where the smuggling actually exists. Our own government here in the U.S. controls us too much, sorry.


see above. also, governmental regulations arent some terrible controlling machine! as long as its done right! the public needs regulations to protect them, the environment, wildlife, and our country and others in general.

anyway, this doesnt seem like its going anywhere because people are just getting upset at fred and not bringing too many ideas to the table. fred, stop with the "anything else is illegal" thing. thats not gonna happen or work.

i like the idea of cards that show whats legal and i like the idea of a "fair trade" certification. what would need to happen for these though? would fair trade be for all frogs of that population? or only certain frogs with proof that are TWI members? just curious.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

puckplaya32 said:


> What is the point in these types of posts? (your not the only one doing it) It helps no one, maybe he is just concerned and would like to see what the US hobby has for suggestions to aid in the problem. Is it too much to quit asking Fred directly about whether hes spear heading an organization (it does not appear he is, nor are 99% of us on this forum) and focus on the topic of the forum. Have any constructive ideas or constructive criticism of any of the ideas presented?


Couldn't help myself. 99% of us are not coming on here giving the third degree to other countries and creating new laws and rules for our hobby when the push needs to start there in Colombia. Do not take issue with us that have a problem with this as we are American citizens and then hobbyists. Noone outside these borders orders us around.
Michael


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

thedude said:


> i like the idea of cards that show whats legal and i like the idea of a "fair trade" certification. what would need to happen for these though? would fair trade be for all frogs of that population? or only certain frogs with proof that are TWI members? just curious.


What we have talked about within TWI (and it has only been in the discussion phase...nothing further) would consist of having a document of "best practices" that looked at the entire system. For each step of the way there would be a set of best practices for proper and sustainable collection of the frog, safe and sanitary temporary housing, proper exportation and importation, etc. (this was actually begun by a few people in the Commercial Amphibian Conservation Group within TWI, but it has yet to be completed).

Those operators who functioned at a level that met all of those "best practices" would be able to carry some sort of emblem or label that notified buyers that their frogs were collected, shipped, etc. in the best possible way.

The closest thing to this currently in action is the Sustainable Forestry Initiative: Sustainable Forestry Initiative


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## fred (May 30, 2010)

Took a little fresh air to shake off all the negativity and bad fibes here..

I see there's a long way to go over there, i do not envy the one who have the heavy task to get things on the right track.

I can understand some people better now who contacted me and told me they will not try anymore.

Anyway, there has been a lot of attention about the subject here, and that is good, if just a few people have got other ideas about the smuggling, it is allready a succes.

Also it must have caught the attention from people who didn't know about what is going on, and they know now.
Who knows what people with important influence got their attention on this..

It's been enough for me now, and i wish you sincerely all well.


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> Couldn't help myself. 99% of us are not coming on here giving the third degree to other countries and creating new laws and rules for our hobby when the push needs to start there in Colombia. Do not take issue with us that have a problem with this as we are American citizens and then hobbyists. Noone outside these borders orders us around.
> Michael


See the problem is your looking at it as he is pushing you around rather than worrying about the topic at hand, he is making suggestions and looking for them as well. Everything is only an idea not an order! I am not an american citizen as well as others that post here, should we not have any input as well than? Mark is not a citizen either should he not suggest you americans buy sustainable frogs either?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Bryce, I do not think I am wrong in trying to understand all components as to the big picture and what every ones contribution is to this problem. If I found Fred was actively involved down there it would elevate his suggestions and ideas as more informed as he would have more insight into the workings of things down there. It is not wrong to ask a persons credentials when he comes here and asks us to go along with his ideas. I always try to make informed decisions and opinions, and in the end that is all I can do, as I said before I am not attacking him, just looking for info, Bill


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

Bill, I completely understand trying to know where everyones coming from. However he stated before he was not an affiliate of any conservation/regulatory agency in Colombia, perhaps you missed it. I did not mean to sound accusatory either, if did i am sorry. but many on this thread are coming across as prejudice to his ideas because he is not an american, simply were american F**K everyone elses ideas we re better BS

So lets keep the ideas flowing and developing


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

puckplaya32 said:


> See the problem is your looking at it as he is pushing you around rather than worrying about the topic at hand, he is making suggestions and looking for them as well. Everything is only an idea not an order! I am not an american citizen as well as others that post here, should we not have any input as well than? Mark is not a citizen either should he not suggest you americans buy sustainable frogs either?


You sound like a slightly better typing version of Fred. You back him up on the most ridiculous things. 

You say that you are not an American citizen but that you live in Billings, Montana? Are you an illegal immigrant or are you in the process of obtaining legal citizenship through legal channels?

The moral of the story is this: clean up the country-of-origin that these frogs come from before attempting to pick the speck out of the American frog hobby's eye.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

skylsdale said:


> What we have talked about within TWI (and it has only been in the discussion phase...nothing further) would consist of having a document of "best practices" that looked at the entire system. For each step of the way there would be a set of best practices for proper and sustainable collection of the frog, safe and sanitary temporary housing, proper exportation and importation, etc. (this was actually begun by a few people in the Commercial Amphibian Conservation Group within TWI, but it has yet to be completed).
> 
> Those operators who functioned at a level that met all of those "best practices" would be able to carry some sort of emblem or label that notified buyers that their frogs were collected, shipped, etc. in the best possible way.
> 
> The closest thing to this currently in action is the Sustainable Forestry Initiative: Sustainable Forestry Initiative


sounds like a great idea. could there be something along these lines for individual hobbyists as well? in the ASN handbook it mentions level 4 amphibians and if someone was working with them they could have their frogroom inspected by someone to conclude they are or arent able to keep the animal. would there be something like that? like you come over and see that my practice and frogs is fit for the system so i get a seal? or would this be simply for importers like UE and SNDF?

for those that dont know what im talking about with level 4 amphibians, they arent anything any of us are working with. they would be something like an endangered species that an organization like amphibian ark is allowing TWI to work with. ASN isnt trying to control who has what


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

MrBiggs said:


> You sound like a slightly better typing version of Fred. You back him up on the most ridiculous things.
> 
> You say that you are not an American citizen but that you live in Billings, Montana? Are you an illegal immigrant or are you in the process of obtaining legal citizenship through legal channels?
> 
> The moral of the story is this: clean up the country-of-origin that these frogs come from before attempting to pick the speck out of the American frog hobby's eye.


Perhaps you should research and realize you do not have to be an american citizen to live in the US legally. Until you grasp that concept perhaps you should avoid the more complex ones.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Bryce,
you start throwing out the word prejudice now? If you and Fred disagree with me and others then tuff. These threads are for both sides of the debate. The fact is ''you'' will not stop the smuggling and you can teach values to new hobbyists. The only way to stop this problem is at GROUND ZERO where these frogs live and get collected and then SMUGGLED out. What about the Eu? Lots of smuggled stuff over there. Posting this stuff over there isn't going to stop illegal activites there for does no good for the frogs in the wild. Pull this post if you like and do what ever but to throw me into a catigory of being prejudice is idiotic. I have walked into more arena's in more countries than I have fingers and had I shown an ounce of being prejudice I would not have left that place alive! Fact. I dont need this board to thrive in this hobby but if this kind of BSl is going to be thrown around over what I feel was a premeditated unfactually based complaint against me and other hobbyists I dont want to be here. You dont see us asking to remove anything we disagree with.
PM me or email for info as to where a more civil place to post is.
[email protected]
Michael


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

MrBiggs said:


> You say that you are not an American citizen but that you live in Billings, Montana? Are you an illegal immigrant or are you in the process of obtaining legal citizenship through legal channels?
> .


What the hell does this have to do with anything? I mean honestly, this is a thread about smuggling, protecting frogs etc. and ridiculous posts like this just send it spiraling out of control.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

puckplaya32 said:


> Perhaps you should research and realize you do not have to be an american citizen to live in the US legally. Until you grasp that concept perhaps you should avoid the more complex ones.


Excuse me, my intelligence is not in question. I am extremely aware of the ability to live in the US without being a citizen. I am more than able to 'grasp the concept' and am also plenty able to grasp the more complex issues discussed here and elsewhere.

I do not, however, understand why someone would choose to live in this country without being a citizen and yet still turn around and criticize the country that is housing them as a non-citizen. Either this country is good enough to live in and stand up for, or it's not and you should go the hell back to wherever you came from. Either way, taking advantage of what our country can offer to you, a non-citizen, while simultaneously speaking ill of it is not something I take to very well.

Until you can at least get a firm hold on proper grammar and punctuation, the last thing you should be doing is criticizing me or anyone else.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Marty71 said:


> What the hell does this have to do with anything? I mean honestly, this is a thread about smuggling, protecting frogs etc. and ridiculous posts like this just send it spiraling out of control.


It is inherently relevant as it pertains to assessing the caliber and integrity of the person with whom I am speaking.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

thedude said:


> in the ASN handbook it mentions level 4 amphibians and if someone was working with them they could have their frogroom inspected by someone to conclude they are or arent able to keep the animal. would there be something like that? like you come over and see that my practice and frogs is fit for the system so i get a seal?


If I recall correctly, the purpose of a visit was if a steward was partnering with a zoo or other professional institution in order to see that their facility met the requirements by that institution (biosecurity, artificial environment failsafes, etc.) to keep that amphibian. The logistics of someone making inspections for this sort of 'certification' would be very difficult...and I doubt it would be possible.

However, how individual hobbyists might fit in this is a good aspect to discuss further.



> for those that dont know what im talking about with level 4 amphibians, they arent anything any of us are working with. they would be something like an endangered species that an organization like amphibian ark is allowing TWI to work with.


ASN was originally created under the assumption that we would play a part in captive breeding programs with institutions for the repatriation of Neotropical amphibians in the wild. This didn't pan out...nor has it for the vast majority (if not all) of U.S. institutions due to cross-contamination, exposure of amphibians to new pathogens outside their country of origin, etc.

So in the handbook revision, I believe levels are one thing we have decided to get rid of since it has created some confusion and simply doesn't apply anymore.



> ASN isnt trying to control who has what


Exactly. We're trying to _monitor_ and who has what simply so we know what's in the hobby and help establish captive populations and CB animals for the hobby...in order to alleviate such a high need for WC animals to meet that demand. All participation is purely voluntary.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Yes Bryce I missed that, and no problem. I think we should all agree to disagree and take a breath, remember we are here out of interest of our frogs, we don't have to agree or like each other, but we should be civil in our interactions, and for the record As an American I am very tolerant of others and their cultures, I feel we should have the same courtesy extended to us by those in other lands, I also tire of apparent or perceived attacks by others telling me how to live. Bill


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

I could care less what either of you think but this a forum looking for solutions to smuggled frogs. We the US hobby cannot directly enforce anything in Colombia, germany, even afghanistan for that matter. All we can do is reflect our beliefs in our actions, and if that action is nothing than what does it say about how we feel about the frogs coming into our hobby?



poison beauties said:


> If he were some type of official I think it would have been thrown up with all the other BS he has offered and ordered on us. My guess is he tried this elsewhere already and moved on as his way of posting sounds prepared.
> To come he ''I know its a world wide forum'' and to order US citezen around and offer nothing but the third degree on some of us is just what I said, BS.
> If he were really interested in stopping this he would join the fight on his end and support ours, not second guess it and make new regulations and laws for us to follow.
> Im finished with these threads, they are going in circles.
> ...


To both Michael and Mr.Biggs please interpret the third sentence here



poison beauties said:


> Couldn't help myself. 99% of us are not coming on here giving the third degree to other countries and creating new laws and rules for our hobby when the push needs to start there in Colombia. Do not take issue with us that have a problem with this as we are American citizens and then hobbyists. Noone outside these borders orders us around.
> Michael


as well as 2nd and third sentences not the first fragment and first sentence.

The issue is you are being hypocritical dismissing freds input because he is neither in a conservation oriented group nor is an american citizen. Do either of you see an issue there? i m open to discussion pertaining to this thread, so if you have any ideas to help lessen the degree of smuggled frogs and their conservation in the US since its the only place people in america can directly affect.

Bill, there is no one that can tell you what to do, it is a suggestion.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Why don't we all take a few deep breaths, and come back and discuss this situation later with cooler heads.


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