# Bloat



## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

I've read the other bloat topics, Ed's posts have been extremely helpful. I've got a bloated GL lamasi. i've got her isolated in a isotonic ringers solution (well as close to ringers as i could make since i don't have access to any premade ringers). i drained some of the fluid from her earlier, and i had previously given her two 10 minute long hypertonic ringers soaks. my question is can i do anything else? i know i will almost certainly lose her, but i'm trying to keep up hope, at least she still seems fairly active and not extremely lethargic, has anybody had a frog that already looks like this recover, she's been bloated approximately 36 hrs progressing from looking slightly swelled when i first noticed to this stage


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

You sure she's not just overfed? My vents are pretty fat...but it's hard to tell from your pic.

Luke


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you have access to a vet you may want to get the frog checked/treated for septicemia as this can also be a contributing factor. I have had bloated amphibians recover from bloat (although in some cases it required antibiotic treatment in conjunction with the ringers solution). 

One of the other items you may want to consider is placing the frog on a more pH neutral substrate like unbleached paper towels as the pH of the sphagnum may (and I stress may) be making it more difficult for the frog to manage its osmotic balance. 

I have placed frogs in hypertonic amphibian ringers for up to 8 hours and as long as overnight when recommended by a vet. If the frog is placed overnight then the ringers needs to be changed daily. 

(this is based totally on my experience and I am not a vet). 

Ed


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^^ yes, i'm sure. she was much more heavily bloated earlier, but i drained most of the liquid from around her throat. you can still see it is swollen in the pic, hence her mouth being slightly agape. i am trying not to stress her too much, so sorry about the pic, i didn't want to prod her into a more easily photographed position.

^ thank you for your post and your suggestions, the only problem is i haven't found a qualified herp vet in fayetteville  i'll call around tommorrow though and try to find someone who could run some tests to check for septicemia


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Are any of these near you? 

http://www.arav.org/Members/NC.htm


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

closest is 74 miles, i've checked the list several times. the only vet in fayetteville who even approaches a herp/exotic vet is one who deals mainly in birds, but i know people have taken iguanas to her. thats who i'll try and call tommorrow. at least in the mean time my lamasi is still moving around, and it seems draining the fluid from her throat has helped a little.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

Unfortunately she died tonight, i just wish there was more i could have done. All i can do now is try to make sure the last 3 tadpoles she laid that are just hatching survive. although i'm worried that if she was sick when she laid this clutch if it will affect the tads. one is in the water and the other two are just getting ready to hatch, this was the first clutch she laid that most of the eggs developed fully, her previous clutches either had half developed or the one tadpole that hatched lived for 4 days and then just seemed to dissappear overnight.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Sorry to hear about the loss. How did you drain the fluid from her?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

a very fine, sterile insulin syringe. i tried to make sure i inserted it barely past the skin and in an area where i wouldn't hit any organs. she expelled a large amount of fluids, but they built back up fairly rapidly, i think i just caught it too late probably just assumed she was gravid when she first started to swell since she had been reproducing regularly up until last week. 2 of her tads are in the water and doing ok. he third has seemed o stop developing in his egg and doesn't look quite developed enough to survive outside the egg although i can still see his heart beating, this is what has happened before and they eventually die, still not sure of the cause.


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## Guest (May 12, 2006)

*bloat - first lost frog*

Am I to understand that bloating can be caused by low pH in the substrate and vitamin deficiency? Can PDF over eat?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In other species of amphibians, low pH substrates can disrupt the ionic balance of the amphibian resulting in fluid retention. However unlike caudates, in anurans, there generally needs to be something helping to disrupt the amphibians' ability to maintain its osmotic balance before the low pH causes issues.

Undersupplementation shouldn't cause the frogs to bloat, oversupplementation can as the excess D3 in the supplementation regimen can cause liver damage resulting in bloating. (According to the pathologists I've spoken to, kidney damage in non-septicemic bloated amphibians is not the primary cause of fluid retention. Liver damage instead is the primary cause. 

Ed


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Can anyone expand on this form of treatment using isotonic ringers solution? What is it, where do you get it and do you have to dilute it? Also, could anyone expand on the antibiotic treatment.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave this may help 


http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml

Ed


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Nice...thanks Ed! and of course you wrote it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I need to update that sheet and include liver damage as one causes of bloat in amphibians. 

Anurans are a little different but most of that still holds true although at least one vet I spoke to commented on oversupplementaton of D3 destroying anuran livers and causing bloat. 

Ed


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Is that why you alternate between dusting both kinds of supplements? I know that the two shouldn't be mixed, but I am concerned about oversupplementaton of D3. For how most of us, is this a problem?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Its one of the reasons. As ffs can retain more of a fine supplement that larger sized crickets (which is what most supplements are made to be delivered by) it is possible to oversupplement with D3 when supplementing too frequently. 

Ed


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

Ed,
With the scare of SLS partially based on not enough suppliments and the scare of bloat/liver damage based on too much supplimentation, how are we supposed to know the correct amount?

I feed once a day and alternate between vitamins and calcium, I do not mix them. Am I feeding too much? Should I feed every other day?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Steve,

It isn't the feeding that is the problem but the frequency of supplementation of D3... 

Unless you want to use a specific product (see http://www.rocksolidherpetoculture.com/ ... &Itemid=27 for one) made for ffs, then the best thing you can do is monitor the frogs and if you are getting nonspecific causes of bloat and death, decrease the rate of supplementation... 

This is partly what I have mentioned on occasion by us not knowing what the RDA for the frogs is and using a genralistic approach for all herps. Part of the problem is that it really isn't cost effective to manufacture a supplement for each species or even genera... 


Ed


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