# Dumb Leuc can't eat



## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

I have had my leucomelas for about a year and a half and he has been pretty hardy and easy to care for. My Patricia and Azureus have become more aggressive feeding wise lately and have outgrown the leuc. I usually make sure I see him eat 4-5 ff each feeding before I leave; often he gets excited and doesn't know which ff to hit if there are a bunch around. Today he attempted to eat 4 ff's and each time he spit his tongue back out and the ff got away. After that he just sat there for a while, chasing after a fly every couple of minutes but never eating one. He also spent the whole day in the front of the viv where I feed them but I didn't see him eat any thing. Any ideas? Is something wrong with him? I know that they spit flies out every once in a while but 4 times in a row has me worried. I'll try to load some pics of him so I can get some feedback on health appearance. Thanks in advance!


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

The tinc. is a monster, he eats so fast.


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## dipox35 (Jan 6, 2008)

you should definatley separate the leuc immeidately into a new viv...also its frowned upon to mix species together..sooo i would separate the tinc and the azureus as well. Since they all have different levels of boldness,agressivness, size and eating habits, it was not a good idea to mix all three species into the same viv


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

Well...

Azeures, Tincs, and Leucs are all very differently tempered. While all of them are fairly bold (as say compared to an Auratus), the Azeures and Tincs I would have to say are more aggressive than Leucs. There is also the size difference to take into consideration--bigger=more likely to get to food first.

The other part is that bigger=more intimidating. One of the biggest killers of dart frogs is stress, and it is quite possible that as his tankmates get bigger, the Leuc is becoming more and more stressed. The stress of being in a tank with other species like this can lead to all kinds of problems (including parasite blooms, etc.) and usually ends badly.

My recommendation would be to set up another tank as quickly as possible and separate the Leuc from the other two. Hopefully, with some TLC, your little guy will be back to normal soon. You might also consider fecals to find out if there are other problems that might have been triggered by the stress. 

I would also recommend setting up another tank in order to separate the Azeures and the Tinc--there are lots of reasons not to mix species as you can see firsthand in the problems with the Leuc.

A search here on Dendroboard will find you many, many threads about the problems with mixing species. Good luck with your frogs and I hope that your Leuc gets back to his old self soon!


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah they all should be in different tanks for a bunch of reasons - just do a search for "mixing" on here and you'll see a whole bunch of them, but for now set up a new tank and separate them just for their safety so the leuc stops being stressed out and gets some food without competition. If he still can't eat after that then you know there's really an issue


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

The dart frog breeder that I bought them from (somewhere in SoCal) said that it wouldn't be a problem having them together. Like I said this is a very recent issue (today) and they have been living together for about a year and a half. I always watch the leuc eat because I know the others feed faster. They generally get along well and the two others have been bigger than the leuc for quite a while with no issues. I will be setting up another tank for the leuc tomorrow though just to make sure. 

Would stress cause him to eat and then spit food out right away?

Any tips on catching and moving him?


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## sounddrive (Jan 4, 2007)

catch them in a Dixie cup or something like that. stress can cause all kinds of problems. by the pic, for a year and a half old frogs they are kinda on the small side so i would say stress has been an issue for a long time. aggression is not always visually notable. it could be something as small as a look to something as big as wrestling. do you and your frogs a favor and separate them all.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

JLHayes13 said:


> Not sure that was necessary but...
> 
> The dart frog breeder that I bought them from (somewhere in SoCal) said that it wouldn't be a problem having them together. Like I said this is a very recent issue (today) and they have been living together for about a year and a half. I always watch the leuc eat because I know the others feed faster. They generally get along well and the two others have been bigger than the leuc for quite a while with no issues. I will be setting up another tank for the leuc tomorrow though just to make sure.
> 
> ...


Actually if you have male and female species together they can interbreed, which to some is a problem and many will shy away from you because of it as others don't really care. It is highly recommended by professionals to separate species due to temperaments, if all males present and you have the right species together whether the same or not, can hurt or even kill each other. There a millions of reasons. As froglets it is alright, but different species become sub-adults at different times and mature obviously at different rates. Also the competition for food for smaller frogs will become more difficult when you have larger frogs eating more and it is harder for smaller frogs to keep up. I am not saying this to be mean, but doing a complete search on different frogs and how they react between each family within the species or asking questions on here is your best bet. We have ranges from newbies to experts in the field as well as Zoo keepers to Vets.  Your definitely in the right place. I do think that, and yes this is in my opinion, that the Leuc being a smaller size frog can be stressed due to competition for food but without moving it or knowing how they act in regards to their specific feeding responses is hard to know. My Leucs feed fine and I have several in the same tank 1 male to 2 female ratio. BUT I can have more more females in the tank depending on size of the habitat, but having more males can hurt or eventually kill each other of the same sex (M in this case) but it can be different outside of the Leuc family....

Catching is the fun part, but you have to be careful. There are many different ways to do this and some know that I take extra precaution than most. I would suggest using latex gloves, no powder or scent and and using a deli cup to scoop the frog into it and putting a lid on it all while being in the tank so your not chasing your frog around the house. Remember it is best not to use bare hands as everything is absorbed through the skin, as you might know, and you can literally kill your frog within minutes. I know it can vary between situations and frogs, but being safe is the best way. Also I won't get into supplementation, how often to feed or what to feed, but it be a good idea to look around on here as well. Just thought I mention it. I hope this all helps.  Great pics of your frogs!

PS: Your Leuc is way to small to be in that tank with your other frogs. It would be like a hobbit competing for food with a human. LOL Also, just some friendly advice, be careful where you get your info from (Not saying this as I have found info wrong here, just talking to people along the way in life). A lot of times people can say things to sell animals or just want to post something because they can be completely wrong in nature. Like my Radio Show disclaimer says, check all info regardless of it being right or wrong, because if someone were to have one detail wrong or missing and it happens to be something that was essential to your animal and it dies you'll regret it later.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Well, with disrespect to the poster of the original thread, and I seriously wasn't going to touch this but since I figured I would have to anyway, considering that I did post in here. Yes the proper etiquette and diplomacy would be appropriate. Whether it be in the title or in a post, as their are rules and regulations, and respect and disrespect for and to others. People who have been on here for years as well as even shorter periods of time spend ample of hours, money, and research in this hobby and using the inappropriate language in a forum is not the proper way to project your opinions or ideas upon others. I have provided a good reference to this etiquette below. Kyle this is an non-animal related site, just thought it pointed out some real good points.

Forum Rules and Proper Etiquette - The RadioReference.com Forums

One last thing. This country is based on the idea that freedom of speech is the right for everyone to have, but in certain circumstances freedom of speech is stripped from an individual due to rules and regulations that we have to follow.

Off my soup box, but I can honestly say that I am tired of saying this but, "Looking around the forum and looking at past threads will help people understand what has been said and done in the past." With a 250,000 posts and counting and over 5000 members and counting(6 years open and going strong if I am not mistaken), you think that all of this has been discussed and it has.  And yes from time to time, I have to keep myself in check so none one's perfect. 

Stats
Members: 5,141
Threads: 37,669
Posts: 346,044

Pulled from site as of 10:42AM, EST

PS: I am not trying to hijack this thread so you have my response on the issue at hand.  Which is to move the Leuc out, as well as other things I mentioned. LOL


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

First of all thank you all for all of the information. I did do a search but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for so I made my own. As far as the title of the thread it wasn't meant to be serious; I don't disrespect my animals. I was just a little frustrated with my leuc, he was my least favorite at first but is now my favorite. 

I bought the frogs at a reptile show from a dart breeder (still can't remember the name of the place grrr) but I didn't know anything about them before that. I have just recently gotten on this forum so I am new to proper care I guess. I definitely was not aware that they could interbreed. 

Luckily I was in the process of building another viv so I already had pretty much everything I need to set one up for the leuc. I also have a spare room that I've been aching to make into something; it will now be my dart room. 

Thank you ATL for all of your info, even the etiquette reminder. I got onto this forum to learn and to be part of the dart community, not to be insulted. I am very impressed with how freely information flows on this site as breeders and business owners of other hobbies can tend to keep the tricks of the trade to themselves; it shows how passionate the members here are for dart frogs. 

-Joe


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Joe,

The comment that was made was out of line - sorry for that to be one of the first responses to your post.

No one needs to go into any lectures on here, but just because a vendor tells you it is ok to mix doesn't mean it is. You have to remember that some are more concerned with selling the frogs on the table and will tell you what you want to hear to move the frogs. 

Your frogs might have been ok while they were smaller, but now as they are larger & should be sexually mature it is important to split them out. It is difficult to tell without a scale, but your frogs look a bit small for being 1 1/2 years old. Most would be full time by this age - but it also depends on how much you are feeding them too. 

Here are some links to the care sheets for Azurues, Tincs & Luecs. Hope they are helpful.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

melissa68 said:


> Joe,
> 
> The comment that was made was out of line - sorry for that to be one of the first responses to your post.
> 
> ...


I just noticed that the comments have been deleted. I wasn't trying to lecture anyone just trying to give some friendly advice.  (I am not sure if that comment was directed to me.) I may not have a couple thousand posts because I try to stay out of some issues, but I help out where I can.  (Not directed to anyone, just a general statement.) I have seen a lot of people get burned by being given the wrong advice, getting pushed around on a thread because they meant this instead of that, so I thought I just add a few things in because you are not the only one that reads these threads. I take that into consideration as well. Anyone can ask me anything, if I don't know I tell you. If you give me a chance I will find the answer. Well I hope all the positive notions has helped.   Sometimes we can all be a bit rough on the edges.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

JLHayes13 said:


> First of all thank you all for all of the information. I did do a search but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for so I made my own. As far as the title of the thread it wasn't meant to be serious; I don't disrespect my animals. I was just a little frustrated with my leuc, he was my least favorite at first but is now my favorite.
> 
> I bought the frogs at a reptile show from a dart breeder (still can't remember the name of the place grrr) but I didn't know anything about them before that. I have just recently gotten on this forum so I am new to proper care I guess. I definitely was not aware that they could interbreed.
> 
> ...


Nice post Joe. You are amongst some passionate people here on this board, who care deeply about animals and their care .

While you started off badly, you recovered nicely and we all look forward to you posting more in the future. Good luck with those guys and when you seperate them, you should see some good results. Be sure your supplements are up to date as well.

Phil


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

atlfrog said:


> I just noticed that the comments have been deleted. I wasn't trying to lecture anyone just trying to give some friendly advice.  (I am not sure if that comment was directed to me.) I may not have a couple thousand posts because I try to stay out of some issues, but I help out where I can.  (Not directed to anyone, just a general statement.) I have seen a lot of people get burned by being given the wrong advice, getting pushed around on a thread because they meant this instead of that, so I thought I just add a few things in because you are not the only one that reads these threads. I take that into consideration as well. Anyone can ask me anything, if I don't know I tell you. If you give me a chance I will find the answer. Well I hope all the positive notions has helped.   Sometimes we can all be a bit rough on the edges.


The comment`s being deleted had nothing to do with you.
You said all the right thing`s.
It wasn`t your ignorant reply that started this.

John


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Just making sure.  I get into trouble enough. LOL


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## buddha (Oct 17, 2006)

Above all.. Despite what seems to be thrown down your throat and the "Bad Bad frog Guy".. Safty of the Frog would be best. grab a couple of Tens (Allot can be found on your local craigslist) and sperate them. You May even find that they grow some more and seem to be "Happier" frogs. -Buddha

PS. The Search Feature is a Good Ally.. I probably spend an hour or so a day looking up everything from Husbandry to Moss. Especially for someone new.. years of expereince out there.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

buddha said:


> Above all.. Despite what seems to be thrown down your throat and the "Bad Bad frog Guy".. Safty of the Frog would be best. grab a couple of Tens (Allot can be found on your local craigslist) and sperate them. You May even find that they grow some more and seem to be "Happier" frogs. -Buddha


I concur with this motion.  So welcome abroad.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

i would have to agree with everyone when i say that hes being picky about eating due to stress in the viv. the frogs look beautiful very healthy colors are nice. but they are deff small for their age. my leucs are about 7 or 8months old and are about the size of your leuc now. just like phill said you are among friends here and we all share the common respect for the frogs. once you put the in different tanks you will see some very nice results.
you cant always believe what a seller tells you, always do your own research and ask alot of questions.. when i was 14 i went for my first reptile lol walked out with a 15 dollar nile monitor. lol 4 feet and alot of scratches and bites later i learned a lesson lol


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

I just got finished setting up a 10 gallon for the leuc a couple of hours ago. No plants or anything but it should still be better than being with the other frogs. I just put him in an hour ago, he is pretty stressed but I am leaving him alone so he can calm down and it is dark now so he should be sleeping.

I've probably spent over 10 hours reading these forums in the past couple of days, mostly on vivarium building. I am going to start concentrating on frog care, unfortunately after I already have a problem


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

JLHaynes13,

You are grace underpressure, good for you and I most certainly not being sarcastic 

If you see the leuc is still having trouble eating you might want to look at this thread and consider that in your plan if you have not already.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/38386-frog-not-catching-ff.html

Best of luck. Sally


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

JLHayes13 said:


> I just got finished setting up a 10 gallon for the leuc a couple of hours ago. No plants or anything but it should still be better than being with the other frogs. I just put him in an hour ago, he is pretty stressed but I am leaving him alone so he can calm down and it is dark now so he should be sleeping.
> 
> I've probably spent over 10 hours reading these forums in the past couple of days, mostly on vivarium building. I am going to start concentrating on frog care, unfortunately after I already have a problem


Please relax and keep this in mind-
There`s only a couple hundred people here more than happy to see you through this!!

John


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

No - it wasn't you. 



atlfrog said:


> I just noticed that the comments have been deleted. I wasn't trying to lecture anyone just trying to give some friendly advice.  (I am not sure if that comment was directed to me.) I may not have a couple thousand posts because I try to stay out of some issues, but I help out where I can.  (Not directed to anyone, just a general statement.) I have seen a lot of people get burned by being given the wrong advice, getting pushed around on a thread because they meant this instead of that, so I thought I just add a few things in because you are not the only one that reads these threads. I take that into consideration as well. Anyone can ask me anything, if I don't know I tell you. If you give me a chance I will find the answer. Well I hope all the positive notions has helped.   Sometimes we can all be a bit rough on the edges.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

If can get some plant cuttings from the old tank it would be a good idea to add them. If there are not any available, see if you can find a clean plastic container (butter tub, yoghurt, cheese, etc...) or a clean flower pot to put in the tank. The frog will need some cover - so it can hide. The lack of it or a coconut will continue to stress the frog out. 

In a way you just moved him from one stressful situation to another. Once you get something in there he will begin to calm down.



JLHayes13 said:


> I just got finished setting up a 10 gallon for the leuc a couple of hours ago. No plants or anything but it should still be better than being with the other frogs. I just put him in an hour ago, he is pretty stressed but I am leaving him alone so he can calm down and it is dark now so he should be sleeping.
> 
> I've probably spent over 10 hours reading these forums in the past couple of days, mostly on vivarium building. I am going to start concentrating on frog care, unfortunately after I already have a problem


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

Yeah I've got a plastic reptile cave hut in there for him, a water dish, and a piece of African root wood that I was prepping for a big future viv so he should have ample hiding spaces. Any other suggestions on making him more comfortable?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

well said response. 




JLHayes13 said:


> First of all thank you all for all of the information. I did do a search but couldn't find exactly what I was looking for so I made my own. As far as the title of the thread it wasn't meant to be serious; I don't disrespect my animals. I was just a little frustrated with my leuc, he was my least favorite at first but is now my favorite.
> 
> I bought the frogs at a reptile show from a dart breeder (still can't remember the name of the place grrr) but I didn't know anything about them before that. I have just recently gotten on this forum so I am new to proper care I guess. I definitely was not aware that they could interbreed.
> 
> ...


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

Thanks Doc.

I just found the place I bought the darts from- Infrogneato.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Cool - providing a lot of hiding places and a good supply of food is important. Leaf litter or plant cuttings are always a good idea too. 



JLHayes13 said:


> Yeah I've got a plastic reptile cave hut in there for him, a water dish, and a piece of African root wood that I was prepping for a big future viv so he should have ample hiding spaces. Any other suggestions on making him more comfortable?


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

Well my leuc looks like he is on the road to recovery. He has started eating ff's again and I put a banana in the viv and he has been eating the larvae. He seems to have gained some weight and has gotten back to his old bold self. I also purchased some springtails from Jeremy (awesome guy) at JL-exotics (it is awesome that a breeder lives 10 minutes from my house) and the leuc absolutely loves them. I put about 20 in the viv, he ate at least 10 and he spent most of the day actively hunting for more. He seems to be ignoring the ff's now but hopefully he will eat some more when there are less springtails.

Anyways I just wanted to thank everyone for their help!


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

JLHayes13 said:


> Well my leuc looks like he is on the road to recovery. He has started eating ff's again and I put a banana in the viv and he has been eating the larvae. He seems to have gained some weight and has gotten back to his old bold self. I also purchased some springtails from Jeremy (awesome guy) at JL-exotics (it is awesome that a breeder lives 10 minutes from my house) and the leuc absolutely loves them. I put about 20 in the viv, he ate at least 10 and he spent most of the day actively hunting for more. He seems to be ignoring the ff's now but hopefully he will eat some more when there are less springtails.
> 
> Anyways I just wanted to thank everyone for their help!


Not a problem. Hopefully whenever someone has an issue, including myself, they would return the favor.  Just kidding. Glad all is well though.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Yuo should notice that your frogs will be more enjoyable to watch now that they are separated and not so stressed.

And I will second your comment about Jeremy and how he is an awesome guy. Your lucky you live near him.

good luck in the future


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## Chusi (Apr 2, 2009)

*OMG! I bought from the same breeder as Joe!*

Hi Joe and Everyone...

My goodness, I think I bought from the same breeder! I too went to a reptile show last year and bought from a breeder in SoCal. I bought a 10 gallon tall setup from him and a leuc and tinc Patricia (That looks VERY much like the pictures you posted with the same vine and moss).

I am a complete beginner and he told me that leucs and tinc (Patricia's) would be great for me. I asked if it would be bad to mix them and he said, that these two in particular would be okay together. 

A couple months ago, my Patricia died and I was so upset. I had no idea what I did wrong. She seemed fine until one day she stopped eating as much (Looked like she kept missing the flies). She then started choking (like she was shedding)... but then then she started to fall on her back... in a few days she died. I felt so terrible. 

I wish I knew about this thread before. I should have done more research and really regret that I didn't. I will never mix any frogs again.

... I feel guilty giving the name of the breeder. I don't like to be a tattle. But I do remember him since I bombarded him with emails during the days my Tinc started to act strange. He seems like a nice guy and does this as a hobby out of his garage. 

But, I am glad you are separating them. I felt traumatized watching my other frog die. Now I have one leuc in a 10 gallon setup. There is a part of me that wants to buy another leuc to keep him company. However, I'm a bit afraid of messing up again. He seems happy and healthy. Perhaps we'll see. I am still learning. This place is a mecca of information. 

Wishing you the best of luck with your new setup.


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