# What do you consider a "Beginner"?



## topaz017 (Jul 30, 2006)

I am posting this in the Advanced Discussion because, well I don't want Beginners answering what a Beginner is? LOL

I'm looking for answers, other then, "Someone who has had frogs"

I wish there was some kind of test to determine your skill.. like "Please choose the best choice of food for your PDF. A: Peanut Butter, B: Rice, C: Fruit Fly's.

So, what do you consider a "Beginner"? When do you become "Intermediate" and "Advanced".


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

When you know you don't have to be told your not! 

But this is a *'BEGINER QUESTION'*, ya know?

So you got aways to go I think.


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## topaz017 (Jul 30, 2006)

stchupa said:


> When you know you don't have to be told your not!
> 
> But this is a *'BEGINER QUESTION'*, ya know?
> 
> So you got aways to go I think.



*sigh* Thank you for your well, thought out response. Clearly you know me so well..

Id like to see other responses that aren't posed to be negative.. Like, Your not a Beginner when you understand what you read in the Advanced Forum.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

Apologies in advanced since I too am a beginner but at a second glance its a reasonable question.

I think its safe to assume a beginner is one that has little to no PDF experience. But, does one have an advantage if they have experience keeping other herps opposed to those with zero reptile/amphibian knowledge? I'd think so. And what of those that may read up and study about PDFs for an extended period of time? Of course book smarts will only help so much.

And about the intermediate/advanced issue, this is good. Maybe we can hear from 'those people' when they felt OK about moving on from 'beginner' frogs, assuming they started out with beginner frogs in the first place. Was it after X amount of time or was it just feeling comfortable with taking on something that may pose some difficulties. 

Sorry about the long and somewhat rambling post, it's kind of late and I've come down with a wicked cold


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## topaz017 (Jul 30, 2006)

That is exactly the kind of response I'm looking for. I made this post for another reason, to answer another question of mine, but to do it in a way that's undiscriminating towards the answer.

I am pretty sure If I get a few good responses like yours, this little question in my head shall be no longer ignored!


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

topaz017 said:


> stchupa said:
> 
> 
> > Like, Your not a Beginner when you understand what you read in the Advanced Forum.


See you answered your own question better than I did. So Why bother?
Don't ask question you already have the answer too.


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## Agrippa (Jul 4, 2006)

Schtupa, please try not to be condescending. This is a forum for all levels of users (including those as vastly ignorant as myself,) so let's please attempt to remain polite. 

As for varying levels of experience and manners of attaining each, both active and passive learning are essential. As before mentioned, a keeper's expertise may be gauged by his/her ability to keep demanding pdfs not only healthy, but happy enough to breed; however, while direct experience may be of great use to the adventuruous hobbyist, it would be a disservice to miss the abundance of information available. In truth, someone has almost undoubtedly come before you in caring for these animals, and their invaluable knowledge should not be under-estimated. We can't keep all types of dendros (unfortunately,) so passive learning is essential. 

Not that I think you would jump, ignorantly, into keeping challenging dendros, but just my concept of the interaction between different types of learning. I see it thus: a beginner simply consumes information, intermediates have solid knowledge and husbandry skills in many situations, and advanced hobbyists can provide new and innovative information on the care and maintenance of pdfs. It's kindof a consumer-producer relationship in my limited view. 

Just a few (rather rambling) thoughts on the subject.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I'd say that it'd mainly be based on experience with pdf's in particular since this is the dendroboard... I don't consider the beginner discussion a folder for beginners. I consider it a folder for beginner questions. Maybe it's an easy question but the answer will mainly be based on opinions, so you post it in the beginner discussion so you can see alot of different opinions and maybe you tally them up and decide that one way is right because more people said it was. Or maybe you take the opinion of a person who's opinion that you trust.
I also don't feel that advanced discussion is only for pdf experts. Let's say you have a difficult question that requires more thought and the answer is going to be based on fact. More likely that the experts will read the stuff in the advanced discussion. Or maybe you have a theory about something or you want to try something new as an experiment. I'd post my theory or experiment there first and see what people's thoughts are on the subject first.
As a beginner, I read from both the folders and most likely I can't answer anything in the advanced discussion folder but I can learn something. Most of the time I can't answer any questions in the beginner folder either because if it's easy enough for me then someone probably already beat me to it but I can still learn things there too. Maybe they need a retard folder for people like me. :lol:


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

A) peanut butter


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## r90s (Jun 13, 2006)

I've noticed many "Experts" say they haven't stopped learning new things about frogs. And they keep finding new frogs. I saw one yesterday!


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

Do not base your body of knowledge strictly on what you read on here or other sites! Their is a distinct difference between reading it and thinking you have everything covered, and then actually doing it. 

You will gain the most knowledge by researching a little and doing a lot!! And I don't mean alot of frogs, I mean get in the habit of fruit fly culturing, get in the habit of checking for eggs, or feeding tads, learn what to do and what not to do. Learn how to keep other feeders etc...

Many people, including myself will be beginners for a while. I have a few different kinds, but I learn something almost every week. I don't really think there is some nasty association with beginners, except they haven't been around very long. 

What are you wanting to gain from this question? Are you trying to gauge where you stand, or when you will be at the "next level"? Don't worry about it. Get the frogs you like, assuming you feel comfortable with them and enjoy them. Don't let a week or (day) go bye with out sitting and just watching them. I love putting food in my tanks and pulling up a seat and just watching the different behaviors!!


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2006)

Agrippa said:


> I see it thus: a beginner simply consumes information, intermediates have solid knowledge and husbandry skills in many situations, and advanced hobbyists can provide new and innovative information on the care and maintenance of pdfs. It's kindof a consumer-producer relationship in my limited view.
> 
> Just a few (rather rambling) thoughts on the subject.


I agree. Also, its not like one day you are an intermediate, then suddenly you graduate the next day into an advanced hobbiest. Its more like, one day you didn't know what a frog was, and then slowly through the years of reading, and hands on experience you accumulate enough know how to be considered an expert by others. I suppose most keepers never think of themselves as experts, and just consider themselves intermediates.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Most of the previous posts are a real good gauge of what would be decent descriptions of the levels you mentioned, so I won't hit that except to say good job guys. One thing i do want to add though, is your experience level (IMO), doesn't necessarily directly correlate to how long you have been in the hobby. I have seen and read posts from a number of very sharp froggers that have been doing this for less than a year that I would consider advanced and some that have been at it for 2 or 3 years and posting "I'm gonna mix these frogs, you don't think that will be a problem do you?"... obviously not advanced. Don't try to make a time/experience connection because in my opinion there isn't necessarily one there. Now, obviously the longer you are in the more opportunities you will have to see and learn, but I think a newer frogger can be any level simply based on the time and diligence he/she puts into learning and observing behaviors as well as practicing and developing good husbandry skills, coupled with the passion they have for the hobby and the frogs themselves.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

sbreland said:


> and some that have been at it for 2 or 3 years and posting "I'm gonna mix these frogs, you think that will be a problem do you?"... obviously not advanced.


I'd be very surprised if someone that has been in this hobby for 2 or 3 years to ask that kind of question. If that has happened, I would seriously question the persons reading comprehension abilities. :lol: If that were the case, they obviously do not have experience and maybe just joined a LONG time ago, got uninterested, then decided to get back in it.

Kristen


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

agreed with kristen. BTW kristen, are you going to be breeding your dog? I want a puppy!!! Seriously! I love frenchies.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

biocmp said:


> BTW kristen, are you going to be breeding your dog? I want a puppy!!! Seriously! I love frenchies.


HAHA...they are funny little critters, aren't they? Well, she is just a pup, so we'll see how she turns out. If she turns out to be a nice one, possibly...but I'm sure you would be able to find one well before that. 

If you want one and need help finding one, let me know. 

Kristen


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

trinacliff said:


> sbreland said:
> 
> 
> > and some that have been at it for 2 or 3 years and posting "I'm gonna mix these frogs, you think that will be a problem do you?"... obviously not advanced.
> ...


Not mentioning any names, but there is a thread in the parts forum right now where someone wanted to put imis and azureus in a 45 that has been on here for awhile. It does happen.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

I find it amusing that someone would consider a 2-3 year in hobbyist to be anything other than a beginner. 

I guess its all a matter of perspective. Sorry, but there is no true litmus test that defines levels of experience. But, somebody that I consider an expert has been known to say....

Experience is directly proportional to frogs lost... 



something to ponder on, huh?


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

> I find it amusing that someone would consider a 2-3 year in hobbyist to be anything other than a beginner.


If you haven't learned enough in 2-3 years to at least put yourself into intermediate, then I think you should go back to collecting postage stamps.

You can't control the life or death of a frog simply by the knowledge you have gained. There are way too many variables to consider, some totally out of your control. Don't get me wrong, knowledge sure helps, but it is not the deciding factor in whether a frog lives or dies.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

so far i have heard very agreeable views on this subject, on many levels i find my self looking at how long people have been joined to this site, i find that the more posts someone has the more experienced they seem to be, but i have read very knowlegable posts from people who have been on here for maybe 30 or 50 posts. i only have very few post and i feel sometimes that replies i get are with a raised eyebrow, i have bred frogs, and used very simple methods, hand misting and run of your mill fruit fly's does this make me a newbe? i dont think so. many of my posts have been about new things i have never done before, things i dont have experience with, this is were people are newbies, so in some aspects yes i am, but if you ask me my prefered way to breed azures or imi's then i will give u a long drawn out description on how i found my succes. another observation of mine is the more people know about new technology then the more experienced people are, like i said i have used very primitive methods and had great succes, just as much as people who use auto misters, hi tech lights, etc. 
the line between experienced, intermediate, and newbe are very blury, we should care about how we use are knowlege compared to how much the next guy/girl knows.


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

soz bout this, but as a reference to people who choose to mix species, some with enough experience may find it rewarding to keep two types of frogs in the same enclosure, i posted a question about this and was told to look harder at old post and that people look down on me. i agree that imi's and azureus should not go together but with knowlege and very carefull selection there are natural areas where more than one type of frog live, these should in theory live well together in a well built large and with every possible senario thought of put in to the enclosure. zoos around the world have started studying the interactions of species in the same habitat and many have found that different species bring out more natural behaviour within the groups living together, people should think out side the box and not just take what they learn on here and other places to be rock hard fact. every rule is bendable.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

rompida said:


> I find it amusing that someone would consider a 2-3 year in hobbyist to be anything other than a beginner.
> 
> I guess its all a matter of perspective. Sorry, but there is no true litmus test that defines levels of experience. But, somebody that I consider an expert has been known to say....
> 
> ...


Good deal, given that I started in the hobby back in October 2004, my beginner status has been restored!!!! :twisted: 

Wooo hooooo!!!

Bill


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> rompida said:
> 
> 
> > I find it amusing that someone would consider a 2-3 year in hobbyist to be anything other than a beginner.
> ...


Don't count on it Bill! Just because one person seems to think that time equals experience and anyone with less than 3 years is a beginner, doesn't mean that is the concnsus. I stick to my guns, experience is based on what you do and how well you do it, not how long you have been doing it for. After all, if you were a beginner, why would you have all those bassleri, and azureiventris, and tarapotos, and...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

rompida said:


> Experience is directly proportional to frogs lost...
> 
> 
> 
> something to ponder on, huh?


So, all I need to do to become an expert is kill a bunch of frogs?? :? 
In that case, I'll stay a beginner and keep my frogs alive.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

stchupa said:


> topaz017 said:
> 
> 
> > stchupa said:
> ...


And learn to spell. Oy. Grammar. 
See, everyone can be condescending.


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## topaz017 (Jul 30, 2006)

Thanks for all the replys. This has turned into a nice thread...

I asked this question to answer one of my own questions, Would a thumbnail species (Intermedius) be right for ME, a first time PDF owner. Not, Would a thumbnail species be right for a first timer. I already know that answer.

I've been reading on this site since April, and built my first viv early aug and just finished. I've read how to culture FF's, springtail's, I've got a website book marked where I could talk to a Vet if need be, got my supplements coming, and will be playing with FF cultures here in a day or so when they arrive. And the rest of the stuff in my head that just feels like second nature now... humidity, temp, water type (bottled, spring, mineral), types of woods that are good in wet conditions, plants, mosses, and the rest I'm sure I'm missing to list.

I remember when I first joined this site, I read a few posts in the Advanced Section, and was like huh, what's a FF? I just started reading the Advanced section again the other day, and I mostly understand everything that's talked about now.

I first saw some PDF's in my local exotic pet store in April, totally said, this is my next pet. Did I just buy one and bring it home, then figure out how to take care of it? No. I did my homework first. 

Then you come down to picking what type to get. We all know what we picked at some time or another was based on the size and how the frog looked. After everything I've read and heard, I thought, Intermedius sounds exactly what I want.... but everyone says, NOT FOR THE BEGINNER!

So, I asked, What is a Beginner?

Will I not be experienced enough to keep them, possibly.
Will I waste a lot of money, possibly.

But I must quote Homer. "Ohh Pinchy! *cry* *chomp* *chomp* *mmmm* *cry* Oh Pinchy! cry* *chomp* *chomp* *mmm*"

And when do I think your no longer a Beginner? What I said earlier, when you can understand most things said in all the forums, not just the Advanced.


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## r90s (Jun 13, 2006)

Oh, THAT Homer!



P.S. Experience and Knowledge are different things but not exclusive of one another.

Knowledge of subjects necessary, to be expert at frog rearing:
Too
Damn
Long
For
Me
To
Type! :wink:


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

> After all, if you were a beginner, why would you have all those bassleri, and azureiventris, and tarapotos, and...



This line of thinking irks me. Anyone with enough money in their pocket can get ahold of these frogs. Your collection size or # of highly sought after frogs does not, to me, indicate level of experience. I've seen way too many beginners buy VERY sought after frogs - golden terribilis, histos, pumilio, granuliferus. Want to take a guess what has usually happened?

Also, being able to understand posts on the advanced section means very little. Many topics in the advanced section could be debatable as to how advanced they really are. I would say that if you can understand the advanced topics that you would fall under the category of "knowledgeable beginner". 

Someone mentioned # of posts as being an indicator also.... hmmm.....
not to sure about that one either. Anyone can hit the "reply" button.

Not trying to being confrontational here. Just think that we all are not nearly as good/experienced as we think we are - myself included. People I consider to be experts would never call themselves that. They just walk the walk, which is why they rarely post on here.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

rompida said:


> > After all, if you were a beginner, why would you have all those bassleri, and azureiventris, and tarapotos, and...
> 
> 
> 
> This line of thinking irks me. Anyone with enough money in their pocket can get ahold of these frogs. Your collection size or # of highly sought after frogs does not, to me, indicate level of experience. I've seen way too many beginners buy VERY sought after frogs - golden terribilis, histos, pumilio, granuliferus. Want to take a guess what has usually happened?


Sorry to irk you, but my reason for posting that was not because he has them, but because he is SUCCESSFUL with them (see the numerous WOOHOO threads for "proof"). I do agree with you that anyone with a pocketbook can buy a frog and that does not indicate experience, but being successful and getting them to breed does. One thing I will agree with you on is that most of us do not have as much experience as we think or want, but experience is a fluid thought that can be measured in many ways. It's just not as easy as saying "once you hit 5 years, your a expert" or whatever time frame. Once again, it's not how much time you have in, but how much you learn and do in that time that determines your experience to me.


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

As long as you know how tiny intermedius truly are, and you can deal with not seeing all of your frogs every time you peer into the tank, then I think intermedius is a great beginner frog. Especially great beginner thumbnail. I love mine. They are out and about, not skiddish like other thumbs. Plus, as long as you feed them plenty, they will plump up pretty quick. 

but then again, I am no expert. I just enjoy frogs. Good luck in making your decision. Just make sure you are used to culturing, and get a vitamin supplement for your frogs!!!


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Stace,

I'm a beginner darn it and I intend to keep it that way so mums the word 8) 

After all, I look at my frogs with big puppy dog eyes and plead with them to breed for me…saying that I’m not worthy of their respect given my lowly beginner status but could they please breed for me so that other froggers would stop making fun of me and calling me a newbie :wink: 

Heck it worked with the quings :twisted: And trivs, retics and so on... But if they find out I’m not a beginner, they might just retaliate by going on strike. I think they might be onto me anyway because I saw the green triv male giving me the evil eye last evening and chirping something that probably translates as "we were misled" :shock: Maybe they'll all go on strike now 

Bill


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Rompida, there can't just not be any experts at all. The whole thing is a relative scale. Being an expert doesn't mean you don't have more to learn, but it does mean you know more than than the average joe.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Catfur said:


> Rompida, there can't just not be any experts at all. The whole thing is a relative scale. Being an expert doesn't mean you don't have more to learn, but it does mean you know more than than the average joe.


Hmm... pretty damn smart way to describe it I think.



> Stace,
> 
> I'm a beginner darn it and I intend to keep it that way so mums the word
> 
> ...


So that's your secret! Dammit! I have been trying to actually learn more rather than just pleading, and I thought it was working as I have several things breeding well now, but all along I just needed to beg them? Damn, I feel cheated! If i would have known that I would have been farther along now, but now I know and knowing is half the battle! :lol:


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

ex·pert (ĕk'spûrt') pronunciation
n.

1. A person with a high degree of skill in or knowledge of a certain subject.

in·ter·me·di·ate (ĭn'tər-mē'dē-ĭt) pronunciation
adj.

Lying or occurring between two extremes or in a middle position or state: an aircraft having an intermediate range; an intermediate school.

be·gin·ner (bĭ-gĭn'ər) pronunciation
n.

1. One that begins.
2. One who is just starting to learn or do something; a novice.

I believe that anybody who has done significant research and has a fair amount of experience (atleast a year) can be denoted as ANY of those.

But it's the connotation that matters.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some random comments

snip "Rompida, there can't just not be any experts at all. The whole thing is a relative scale. Being an expert doesn't mean you don't have more to learn, but it does mean you know more than than the average joe."endsnip

Often, the best "experts" know how little they do know and make sure that people are aware of that point while sharing what they do know and are willing to accept not only new information but change thier opinion if/when the information is presented correctly. 

Reaching expert status isn't something that occurs automatically when you have spent x number of days, weeks, months, years doing something.... It can occur rapidly or slowly, and it can be very focused (such as on one species) or it can be very diverse (such as not only many species of Dendrobatids but plants, insects, cars etc). 

Ed


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Hear, hear.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I think the defining criteria for experience is the ability to master the basic concepts of the hobby.Anyone can feed, breed, and house thier frogs but an experienced frogger has complete understanding of why they do the things they do and have done them so often and successfully that it becomes second nature.
When we are introduced to new material and practices I think we are all noobs because even when we understand we don't have the experience validate or discredit it.

You must become one with the frog.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "but an experienced frogger has complete understanding of why they do the things they do and "endsnip

Are you referring too the frogger or the frogs here?

Ed


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I was refering to the frogger's understanding what they the frogger do or at least at a greater understanding.My main point would been that the more refined one becomes at the basic essentials of the care of the frog the more experienced he/she is. I think I've come realize how much we don't know about the frogs by now with all the asinine questions I ask.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Hey, nothing ventured, nothing gained!  

BTW, I'm submitting the following to "Classic Board Quotes:"



froggerboy said:


> You must become one with the frog.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

I had a professor in college once say something like " the higher your level of education the more specialized you become, you learn more and more about less and less untill you know everything there is to know about nothing" 

The more you learn the more you realize that you have so much more to learn.

To quote Socrates:
"I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing and that is that I know nothing" 
"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance" 
"wisdom begins in wonder"


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2006)

Tadpole4 said:


> I had a professor in college once say something like " the higher your level of education the more specialized you become, you learn more and more about less and less untill you know everything there is to know about nothing"


Possibly too true, lol!!


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> I had a professor in college once say something like " the higher your level of education the more specialized you become, you learn more and more about less and less untill you know everything there is to know about nothing"


Absolutely true!

I guess the opposite is also true though, that the lower your level of education, the less specialized you become until eventually you know nothing about anything/everything...

~B


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

even if you know everything about something but not why you are doing it in the first place you know nothing.
i know a lot about dart frogs but i lost track of why i was doing it and it eventually took over and i lost the reason for doing it in the first place.
only thru constant evaluation can you gain any knowledge and then it goes and changes on you.
i`m all about the knowing we know nothing but constantly observing for a shimmer of a basic truth i can build on. :lol: :lol:


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> even if you know everything about something but not why you are doing it in the first place you know nothing.


That's pretty profound, Aaron! Nice contribution.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

Losing track of why you do it tends to come from loss of faith or confidence when facing adversity.There is a reason why is there but has been displaced.Finding it agian comes with time and is not as bad a not knowing why you do it from the begining.I suffered this many a time with my art but with patience I find that the reasons resurface.Adversity defines who we are but obscures what we want.


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## shawn13 (Sep 21, 2006)

*Brothers and sisters in the frog*

I am green in the field. A froglet umungst big bellowing frogs that sit upon the majestic lilly pads as noble delegated overseers in this big flowing water. Yet we are one in purpose. I'm timid, passive, and yet learning. Letting out occasional small chirps as to not be so bold. But as time prods on, as my experience becomes more manifest, froglets will mandate this of me. I shall remember my mentor frogs. Those that fed me those flys that I couldn't yet reach. Who dipped me in the water when my thirst needed quenched.
No doubt my empathy hasn't yet, reached the temple mount. But, it is amungst fellow frogs that this passion,a zest for these fine diamonds, these painted tapestries, mosaic masterpieces, that we become unified in one accord. 
Also,I render respect to the ones before me. Let silence be my teacher and words my wisdom. Ergo, I shall humly show my place.
Just thought you'd like to hear from a beginner.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I would say time in the hobby is only one factor. There is so much that we don't know and don't understand about these animals and their natural history that I would hesitate to call any hobbyists experts. Expert implies a robust and thorough knowledge of the animals, their natural history, their diseases, reproductive history etc. There are a few in the hobby that I would consider advanced and these are guys that have been working with darts for 10+ years. My opinion of an expert would be someone with plenty of years of experience and who actively works with the animals in a "full time position" be it professional or non. Regardless of whether you've been in the hobby a year or 10 years if you make a point to continue learning that's all that matters. I'll end with saying that even an advanced hobbyist's techniques may not work for you and in my opinion more often than not there is no "best way" to do things in this hobby. There are plenty of methods that will provide success, just work to find the ones that work best for you.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

rmelancon said:


> I would say time in the hobby is only one factor. There is so much that we don't know and don't understand about these animals and their natural history that I would hesitate to call any hobbyists experts. Expert implies a robust and thorough knowledge of the animals, their natural history, their diseases, reproductive history etc. There are a few in the hobby that I would consider advanced and these are guys that have been working with darts for 10+ years. My opinion of an expert would be someone with plenty of years of experience and who actively works with the animals in a "full time position" be it professional or non. Regardless of whether you've been in the hobby a year or 10 years if you make a point to continue learning that's all that matters. I'll end with saying that even an advanced hobbyist's techniques may not work for you and in my opinion more often than not there is no "best way" to do things in this hobby. There are plenty of methods that will provide success, just work to find the ones that work best for you.


100% agreed and one of the better and more accurate posts in this thread IMO


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