# InSitu Amazonia "Nurse Log"



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm building up an InSItu Amazonia for some (probably 2.2) _R. reticulata._

What I'm primarily trying to accomplish with this viv is to maximize the area of available substrate surface. I intend to raise up the tads in this, the parents' viv -- by providing film canisters for deposition and then feeding the tads in those canisters in the viv until they morph out and leaving the froglets in this viv to grow out -- and so want to maximize the foraging area and springtail reproduction/habitation area as retic froglets are quite dependent on springtails at morphing.

To do that, I've constructed a "nurse log": a simulation of a fallen and decomposing tree trunk that provides both a nursery area for plants and a food and habitat source for microfauna. I've raised it off the ground so that it increases the substrate surface area of the viv beyond the actual footprint of the viv, as I am always trying to maximize usable foraging area for the frogs. 

(An aside: while I believe this will be functional in the ways intended, as an actual simulation of wild habitat it is somewhat whimiscal; while nurse logs are a common feature of temperate forests they are said to rarely be a feature of tropical rainforests. The "natural ecosystem" conception falls short again.)

Here's how I did it.

I started with this lovely cork round:










Then I sawed off the bottom of the thicker section at an angle; this cut surface will rest against the substrate:











Then I opened up the top of the long thinner section:










I coated the inside of the cork with silicone (this took more silicone than I would've thought), and after it cured I filled the opening with Great Stuff:










I rounded out an opening for a secret-looking but keeper-accessible frog lair at the cut end of the thick section, and (after taking this photo) coated the ground-contact surfaces with silicone:










Here's the log in place and just after initial planting. The main substrate is calcium clay with leaf litter (the front drainage trough is simply filled with a piece of aquarium foam). The nurse log is filled with ABG. The cave area is accessible for frog removal, and there are no other hardscape areas that frogs can access and not be removed. I may at a later date add a smaller cork round or two, as these can be useful for frog removal (when the frogs are in the round, remove the round into another viv or tub).





















Plants are:

_Philodendron_ 'McColley's Finale'
_Philodendron_ 'Prince of Orange'
_Medinilla sedifolia_
_Marcgravia _'Azreal'
_Pilea _sp. 'Purple Ecuador'
_Peperomia trinervis _sp 'Ecuador'
This viv will be allowed to grow in for a few months before frogs are introduced. The log turned out to be a little less tall than I anticipated, and so I'd like the Pilea and Philodendron to gain some height to allow the frogs more climbing distance. The Marcgravia 'Azreal' is a very strong grower once established, so that plant will provide a lot more usable surfaces, too.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I've stomped around several tropical forests and I can assure you that "nurse logs" are one of the most important and distinctive habitat features there. The increased light and dead wood along with all the insects and fungi it supports draws all kinds of other organisms. 

A rainforest tree fall is the best way to get a look at canopy orchids and other epiphytes. Sometimes they will even persist growing and blooming there on the fallen limbs for a period of time before the canopy closes again.


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## Eurydactylodes (Sep 7, 2021)

You have good taste in Marcgravia.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

hydrophyte said:


> I've stomped around several tropical forests and I can assure you that "nurse logs" are one of the most important and distinctive habitat features there. The increased light and dead wood along with all the insects and fungi it supports draws all kinds of other organisms.
> 
> A rainforest tree fall is the best way to get a look at canopy orchids and other epiphytes. Sometimes they will even persist growing and blooming there on the fallen limbs for a period of time before the canopy closes again.


Well, that's good to hear. I came up with the viv idea based on what I see in our own woods here in Wisconsin (where the soil seems much less desirable for microfauna compared to rotting logs; likely an effect of non-native earthworms, from what I understand). I based my statement up there both on explicit claims in papers (such as this one) and by a noticeable dearth of hits for discussions of tropical vs temperate nurse logs. It would be interesting to dig deeper into why the literature has this asymmetry.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

That looks awesome! Those reticulata will be very happy with it.

Ricky


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## Vargoje3 (Oct 5, 2020)

Looks really good. I don't understand why you sealed the inside with silicone however. I would think you would want it exposed to allow decomp, grow fungi etc to attract your desired microfauna. Can you explain that aspect?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Vargoje3 said:


> Looks really good. I don't understand why you sealed the inside with silicone however. I would think you would want it exposed to allow decomp, grow fungi etc to attract your desired microfauna. Can you explain that aspect?


I filled the log with ABG for microfauna (and I'll likely be adding leaf litter to that part once the plants start growing in). I'd like the log to last for the lifespan of the frogs, or at least to not be the shortest lived part of the viv as a whole, so I sealed off the moisture-contact surfaces. Cork bark does degrade in contact with water, and while it usually isn't substantial or quick-moving, I thought in this case a decomposing hole in the bottom of the ABG trough would be problematic.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

What plants are these, some sort of Pilea?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> View attachment 303197
> What plants are these, some sort of Pilea?


Yes, _Pilea _sp. 'Purple Ecuador'. Neat plants, but get a bit leggy and need good light. I'm still figuring out the best pruning plan for these, as they respond to pruning with a flush of very small leaves and then take a while to grow larger leaves again.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Any concern about the philodendrons outgrowing the tank? I have an Imperial red in a growout that’s growing like crazy there…I’m also starting to quarantine a Mccoley’s finale, but I worry it’ll have a similar growth spurt in the growout (let alone if I put it in a frog tank).


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Lovelyk said:


> Any concern about the philodendrons outgrowing the tank? I have an Imperial red in a growout that’s growing like crazy there…I’m also starting to quarantine a Mccoley’s finale, but I worry it’ll have a similar growth spurt in the growout (let alone if I put it in a frog tank).


My Philodendron McCauley finale has exhibited VERY little growth in the tank I have it in.
See this thread for details:
Vivarium discussion Sept 28, 2020 

@Socratic Monologue this is a great tank. I'm actually building something with a similar look


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Lovelyk said:


> Any concern about the philodendrons outgrowing the tank? I have an Imperial red in a growout that’s growing like crazy there…I’m also starting to quarantine a Mccoley’s finale, but I worry it’ll have a similar growth spurt in the growout (let alone if I put it in a frog tank).


Yes, but FG's experience spurred me to try these plants. In just weeks, these are putting on new growth strongly for me.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, but FG's experience spurred me to try these plants. In just weeks, these are putting on new growth strongly for me.


Maybe I'm the outlier haha. My plant had some nice growth the first few weeks, then almost no discernable growth for a year afterwards.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Maybe I'm the outlier haha.


Yeah, is this plant in that peculiar thumbnail viv of yours? The one with the bold sirensis? That viv might be positioned exactly in some cosmic intersection point where the fifth dimension enters our world or something.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yeah, is this plant in that peculiar thumbnail viv of yours? The one with the bold sirensis? That viv might be positioned exactly in some cosmic intersection point where the fifth dimension enters our world or something.


It is! Bizarro land perhaps.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> My Philodendron McCauley finale has exhibited VERY little growth in the tank I have it in.
> See this thread for details:
> Vivarium discussion Sept 28, 2020
> 
> @Socratic Monologue this is a great tank. I'm actually building something with a similar look





Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, but FG's experience spurred me to try these plants. In just weeks, these are putting on new growth strongly for me.


Oh I see. So there’s a possibility that it might be okay for a while in a viv…or just explode in growth, as suspected. Lol a schroedinger‘s plant situatio, based on Fishingguy’s experience it seems.


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## Lucano (Aug 21, 2017)

I really like it. I think the no-background vivs look awesome (when built with criterion, and this is your case  )


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

I really like your idea. I remember years ago on the old FrogNet someone built a tank with a tree fern background that had a little tree fern box that was accessible from the top. He added kitchen scraps and leaves to the box as a little springtail generator that the frogs could not get to and deplete.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

bulbophyllum said:


> springtail generator


This is definitely the future!


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> This is definitely the future!


Ok this has been confusing me but you really feed ye frogs springtales? Sounds hard, is it true that some froglets are too small even to eat melogaster? Are Ranitomeya one of those frogs? (the only dart frog I ever see my self getting, tadpole piggebackrides!)


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Springtails are part of the in-viv microfauna, and froglets (and adult frogs) eat them. Yes, some (most?) Ranitomeya are partially or totally dependent on springtails for their first food. Springs can't (practically/effectively/simply) be supplemented, so using a calcium-rich clay substrate and providing metered levels of UVB lighting helps the calcium intake of the froglets.


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## Frogmanjared (Jul 17, 2020)

That is one gnarly log you've got there!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Frogmanjared said:


> That is one gnarly log you've got there!


I keep an excessive stock of cork bark on hand, and that was the nicest piece of all of them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

A little update: I already put a (hopeful) pair of retics in the viv; they were breeding in the holding viv and there seemed to be a little bit of tension in there, so I pulled out the two I think were breeding (they were courting, anyway). There are more tads in the holding viv now too; I think I may have two pairs. 

It isn't quite grown in as much as I was hoping before adding frogs, but it's OK:










The Philodendrons are looking lovely:












Also: the new InSitu lights are upgraded, which took me a little while to discover, embarrasingly. I had thought that the lights on my two older Amazonias were getting tired already (when I looked at them next to the new ones), but the new generation of InSitu lights have added some green diodes and some "near IR" ones:









LED Light Array Replacement


This is a mounted LED light array replacement. The array incorporates our newly upgraded strips, which include both green and Near Infra Red (NIR) diodes. The green diodes help reduce reflected white light, and the Near Infra Red helps plants with stockier growth. The Array comes with LED's...




insituecosystems.com





These newer lights have much better color rendition (a little 'cooler' looking, but also just more fullness of color). They do, interestingly, run 20 degrees F hotter than the old ones (both on top of the panel and on the diffuser surface). I've just ordered the replacement lights for my older Amazonias.

Comparison with the old-gen lights on the left hand viv, and the new ones on the right:


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## jclee (Jul 13, 2009)

Gorgeous! And I like the new light.


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## [email protected] (Jul 9, 2020)

This unique nurse log idea the the unique plant selections you have paired with it are fascinating and I am eager to see the continued progress. Cool stuff. Any insight on your row of diagonal film cans would be appreciated. Is this your preferred arrangement for Ranitomeya to have them in a diagonal row at ground level?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> Any insight on your row of diagonal film cans would be appreciated. Is this your preferred arrangement for Ranitomeya to have them in a diagonal row at ground level?


So, I plan to raise the tads in the viv (that is, caring for them artificially in the same way I would out of the viv), and these are the deposition sites (well, actually I'm going to make some white - so I can see the tads - magnet mount ones as soon as the supplies get here). I actually had a tad going like this in the holding viv, and then stupidly flushed it out without noticing. 

Typically with egg feeders (which these are not) I'd scatter the canisters in partially hidden places throughout the viv. They're out front for my feeding convenience.


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## [email protected] (Jul 9, 2020)

That makes good sense and sounds like a convenient and effective means for rearing non egg feeding Ranitomeya in situ.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> That makes good sense and sounds like a convenient and effective means for rearing non egg feeding Ranitomeya in situ.


Yes, we'll see.


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## Frogmanjared (Jul 17, 2020)

Pictures of the frogs? Also, did you get solids?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Frogmanjared said:


> Pictures of the frogs?


He, he... you must have me confused with someone with photography skills -- these are fast little guys. Yes, I'll see what I can do for photos. 

I got two solids and two striped. The person I got them from keeps them mixed, as does Chris Miller, so I kind of assume that this is legit. It is nice that each pair I have (one confirmed, one I'm not 100% sure about) is one of each, so I can keep them straight.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Here are a couple photos I managed to get. This pair is now confirmed.


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## Frogmanjared (Jul 17, 2020)

Those tadpoles are huge


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yes, they really are. The froglets are said to morph out small, though.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Wow, great photos!

Thanks for sharing.

Ricky


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

A little update: still playing with the moisture balance in here -- the two Philodendrons would prefer to be quite a bit drier. Currently misting 30 sec 3x/day, back vent open, 2 front vents open, Noctua fans running full out @12vdc. 

The frogs (1.1) are doing well, and have eight tads in various stages of development. Feeding the tads pellets in their film canisters in the viv is going well.

Photos of the parents, male is spotted, female is solid. I'll need these photos to sort them out from the froglets at some point, which are -- possibly foolishly -- going to be raised in-viv.















Interesting observation: various dart species seem to have a temperature at which they're shy below that temp, and more bold above it. For these guys, it seems to be 78F -- that was the daily high for a few days recently, and there was a noticeable difference in boldness. Will work on getting more observations as time goes on. Shout out to @npaull and the project of fine tuning temp recommendations per species.


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## bonestorm (6 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Currently misting 30 sec 3x/day, back vent open, 2 front vents open, Noctua fans running full out @12vdc.


Hey @Socratic Monologue hope it's okay to bump this.

RE: your noctua setup—I'm looking to swap out my Insitu fans with noctuas as well, and wanted to check how you're running yours.

Do you have the 40mm 4-pin noctuas running into a 4-pin to DC splitter, which runs into a 12v power supply?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Totally okay. 

I used the 3-pin Noctuas (they seem to throttle down fine with just a regular dimmer; I don't use a PWM controller) but no reason the 4-pins wouldn't work that I know of. 

Yes, I used the supplied pin-connector that came with the fans, and spliced that to a pigtailed barrel connector (no reason not to splice the pin-connector adapter directly to the 12vdc line, though; just easier for me to split off power in the future). 

Yes, running on 12vdc (the same bigger Meanwells that I run all my 12vdc stuff with).


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## bonestorm (6 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Totally okay.
> 
> I used the 3-pin Noctuas (they seem to throttle down fine with just a regular dimmer; I don't use a PWM controller) but no reason the 4-pins wouldn't work that I know of.
> 
> ...


Awesome. Thanks so much for the assistance; I feel a lot more confident about it now!


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## 2Lorenzoss (11 mo ago)

I'm glad this old post showed up, its very interesting in the small details.


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