# Buying leaves



## rosicakes (Oct 28, 2017)

What type of leaves do I need and where can I buy them? Both Josh’s Frogs and NEHERP seem to be out of stock. Is it okay to plant the terrarium and add the leaves once they’re in stock? There won’t be frogs in there, just plants for a couple of months.


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## Hops & Scales (Jul 31, 2017)

Yes, you can get your tank running without leaf litter. That being said, leaf litter breaks down and releases nutrients into the soil which allows microorganisms to grow (this includes your springtails & isopods). Leaf litter also covers the soil and creates a micro habitat so that the soil isn't fully exposed to the light and air flow. This microhabitat keeps the soil moist which again helps the microorganisms. Also it creates hides for frogs (which you said you wouldn't add until you have leaf litter). If I were to add leaf litter later on, I would allow the leaf litter to "settle in" for about 2-4weeks before I get any frogs, but that's just me.

The Biodude and Glass Box Tropicals also sell leaf litter. You can also look for sellers on Ebay or local sellers (other dart frog hobbyists near you). Also in many areas, fall is occurring and that means that you can go out (if you so choose and if you are in an area where leaves fall or are falling) and collect leaf litter for yourself. I've collected mangolia and oak. There are websites you can go on where they give you lists of "vivarium safe" leaves. When you collect them, rinse them off with water, then boil them for 10-20 min to disinfect them. Then allow them to dry and bingo! Free leaf litter. This method of disinfecting can differ between hobbyists. 

I hope this helps in giving you options.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Honestly it's best to collect them yourself from a price stand point. Aside from that getting a hookup from someone on here would be my next go to. 

You can wait, but I feel its better to add plants/springtails/leaf litter at the same time. I'm collecting tons from 3 white oak trees in my yard, but shipping would be a beast to socal.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Rosicakes,

There are plenty of Magnolia (M. grandiflora) trees in LA (and the Valley). It's a popular street tree in older neighborhoods and it's also planted in parks.

There are also lots of oaks - but most of them will be prickly-leaved native live oaks that I would avoid as frog litter. Away from the city (or in Griffith Park) you might find native valley oaks which do not have prickles on the leaves (the leaves are not as durable as live oak, though). You might find good leaves in the Arboretum if they have some non-native oaks planted (eastern North American live oaks don't have prickles)...

I cook dry leaves in a glass bowl in the microwave for 4 min to sterilize them. If you gather leaves from near roadways (especially in LA where rain doesn't wash leaves for most of the year) you should probably rinse and dry the leaves first...


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Personally I prefer to not collect from public parks or streets. Most times there are pesticides and/or herbicides that are sprayed in parks to keep weeds and bugs down; and streets are perpetually subjected to exhaust fumes and other car leakages. If you can do the homework and verify that the park doesn't use pesticides and herbicides then you should be probably be ok, but it's always better to pull leaves from your/a friend's/a neighbor's back yard where you can be sure.


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## rosicakes (Oct 28, 2017)

I’ll be completely honest and admit that I’d have no clue what the leaves look like. That’s why I was looking to buy them. Could I search google for pictures and neighbors if I can look at their leaves? Is that weird?


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## rosicakes (Oct 28, 2017)

kimcmich said:


> @Rosicakes,
> 
> There are plenty of Magnolia (M. grandiflora) trees in LA (and the Valley). It's a popular street tree in older neighborhoods and it's also planted in parks.
> 
> ...


Griffith Park isn’t too far from me. Is it allowed to collect leaves there? I don’t want to break any laws or rules. I know there’s usually signs about taking rocks out of the park.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

There will be rules about cutting or picking vegetation - but it's doubtful you would be harassed for collecting fallen leaves. Any of the open space parks around LA will also have oaks. The LA Arboretum is another option - you could likely ask at the entrance desk for permission to pick up dead leaves. Finally, any neighbor with an oak or magnolia in their yard would likely be receptive to you gathering dead leaves - just ask them to confirm they (or their gardener) don't use insecticides. If gotten some odd looks - but no one has ever turned me down


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## Darrell S (Jan 9, 2011)

Just be sure and follow the guide lines of boiling and or cooking them in the oven . # 1 . to wash off undesirables . #2 kill unwanted hitchhikers and or germs , bacteria , ect. 
Do yourself a favor and learn to identify live oak , maple , and magnolia , they are very popular and plentiful in California , especially Magnolia , Its grows everywhere , Its the bush/tree with the big flowers . You will be surprised all of the tree's that surround you with leaves that you can use . I have live oak in my front and back yard , in spring they drop about 200 lbs of leaves , maybe I should bag them and sell them LOL .


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## rosicakes (Oct 28, 2017)

I searched google and have definitely seen magnolia leaves. Now to find out about pesticides. I have only have a lemon and guayana tree but I doubt those leaves are okay to use.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

Few homeowners use pesticides in a way that would affect fallen tree leaves - especially in a place like LA. Native oaks in parks and open space are almost certainly untreated. You want to avoid collecting near citrus farms or other agricultural trees since these trees are frequently sprayed. There are alot of guides to California oaks (magnolia should be pretty easy for you to ID). 

Here's a simple one: https://nature.berkeley.edu/garbelottowp/?p=1749

Unless you want to do some leaf processing to remove the prickles, I would suggest trying Valley Oak or Island Oak (which is planted on the mainland too). If you're not against spending the time to trim the prickles, any of the native live oaks would work fine.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Magnolia are good hides, but I would be looking for some kind of oak. Oak, maple, or similar will be your main base of leaf litter. If I remember correctly live oaks are what's mainly in SoCal. You'll have to google to see, but very easy to spot by leaf shape. You should be able to find some on eBay if you want to go that route. 

You will want a layer of crushed dried leaves, then whole dried leaves, and then magnolia on top of that. The oak type leaves will be where your micro fauna will flourish and the mags will be mainly for your frogs to feel secure.


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## rosicakes (Oct 28, 2017)

S2G said:


> You will want a layer of crushed dried leaves, then whole dried leaves, and then magnolia on top of that. The oak type leaves will be where your micro fauna will flourish and the mags will be mainly for your frogs to feel secure.


Oh thank you for letting me know! I was seriously unsure about the leaves. I’ve researched a lot but I completely skipped learning about this for some reason.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kimcmich said:


> @Rosicakes,]
> 
> There are also lots of oaks - but most of them will be prickly-leaved native live oaks that I would avoid as frog litter. Away from the city (or in Griffith Park) you might find native valley oaks which do not have prickles on the leaves (the leaves are not as durable as live oak, though). You might find good leaves in the Arboretum if they have some non-native oaks planted (eastern North American live oaks don't have prickles).....


How hard are the prickles on the live oaks? I have red oaks that I use in the cages that have sharp points (granted not as many) that are stiff but not as hard as the points on bromeliad leaves (and given how spiny the bromeliads many of the dart frogs use are..) is that really that much of a concern? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Ed,

California live oak leaves have hard prickles all around their margin - especially when the leaves are dried. It can be painful, for instance, to walk across fallen live oaks leaves barefoot. The prickles are comparable to holly leaves - you can see them in the attached image of Quercus agrifolia.

Even on prickly coast live oak, the higher leaves have fewer prickles (the tree are smart enough to know how high the herbivores can reach!) - so you can sort for the least prickly upper leaves. Young trees - and those short enough that they experience regular herbivory can have very, very stiff and prickly leaves.

I don't have direct experience with frog injury from these leaves, but I would avoid them just to be safe. Some of the other native oaks on the previous linked guide look like options...


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

I use live oak collected here in so. cali and never had an issue with the prickley with frogs. yes they will prick you when picking them up but not enough to draw blood. And your right it would hurt to walk on them barefooted, but they are totally fine for frogs. 

dont over think things.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@bsr8129,

If you are collecting from mature trees, you might be getting the least prickly leaves already. I have had dried leaves draw blood when I've brushed them aside too vigorously when looking at lichens. Of course, frogs seem unphased by some very toothsome bromeliads as Ed notes - so maybe I am too concerned. Still - I would try to sort-out the prickliest ones if I were using them. (I have access to non-prickly exotic oak and magnolia trees at local Bay Area arboretums so I've never used native live oak.)


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## rosicakes (Oct 28, 2017)

When I collect leaves, do I need to leave them out until they dry and then boil them or will boiling them dry them out?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I use the "prickly" coastal live oak leaves almost exclusively with all of my frogs. I have never seen any injuries in my captives that I could attribute to the spines, and the curled shape that they get is frequently chosen as a lay site for many species.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@Dane @bsr,

Empirical evidence is hard to ignore! Thanks for the tip - native live oaks leaves are certainly easier to find than the nonnative oaks I currently use.

Dane - do you keep thumbs? I have R. imitator and now wonder if they might try live oak leaves as lay sites...


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Our most popular leaves, Magnolia Leaves, are in stock! They are thick and therefore last for a long time in your viv before they will break down.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

kimcmich said:


> @Dane @bsr,
> 
> Empirical evidence is hard to ignore! Thanks for the tip - native live oaks leaves are certainly easier to find than the nonnative oaks I currently use.
> 
> Dane - do you keep thumbs? I have R. imitator and now wonder if they might try live oak leaves as lay sites...


I have kept many species of Ranitomeya on these leaves, and they will occasionally use the litter, but most of my thumbs have preferred film cans, glass, or growing leaves a little higher in the viv. Phyllobates, auratus, and tinctorius will use them most frequently for laying.


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