# dart frog feed. self sustaining vivarium?



## darts.in.a.den (May 2, 2016)

hello, i know this topic has been brought up before however i do have some important questions, 


IF a terrarium is large enough would it be possible to have a self sustaining tank. in the feeding aspect of things ?

what i mean is lets say i had a very large tank heavily seeded with springtails and isopods would it be possible for the dart frogs (ranitomeya species) to not feed on fruit fly but instead feed on the springtails and isopods breeding in the substrate? whilst every few months or so adding more of the isos and springtails to make sure theres still a steady supply of them.So what do you guys think is it doable ?
whats a minimum tank gallon you would recommend


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## Roscoe09 (Dec 30, 2017)

I think it could be done but it’s really risky. A tank size would depend on the amount of frogs you want. You could try other feeders like bean beetles or small crickets. Hopefully the expert frog keepers will chime. I personally wouldn’t try.


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## AuroraK (Mar 29, 2017)

Would they get enough calcium/nutrients? Obviously in your proposal you wouldn’t be providing supplements, which seems like a bad idea.


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## Diesel (Jul 31, 2017)

IMO, having a good seeded tank with springs and iso's is always recommended.
Supplementing feeding with supplements is a must as the frogs don't get that from just springs and iso's. 
Yet it makes it easy when you days gone for work. or vacation.
As on return you can feed insects dusted with supplements.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

The frogs would 100% still require supplementation. You can certainly aim to have sufficient microfauna that the only reason you feed is for supplementation, I do, but it's not simple and just isopods and springtails would be an insufficiently varied diet. 
You should probably aim for at least ten species of isopod, springtail and other microfauna that the frogs can prey on if attempting this kind of setup. You really need to take it into consideration when designing your viv and include 'refugium' areas where the prey species aren't exposed to the frogs too.

If you're contemplating this then also consider incorporting portions of a calcium bearing clay substrate. Pumilio has some good instructions here
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


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## darts.in.a.den (May 2, 2016)

thank for the replies, in regards to dusting lets say i attempted this with a 150 gallon tank and just added a pair of ranitomeya, what would i need to do in order to make sure they receive there vitamin needs just make a clay substrate nothing else ?. i intended to add a wide range of microfauna species and as said above will be constantly topping up more microfauna.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

To give them enough vitamins, you need to feed them prey dusted with a suitable vitamin mix, including vitamin A. A substrate will not do the job. 

Curious: why bother? Constantly adding microfauna is going to be about as time-consuming as feeding regular food on a regular basis, and this is a risky attempt that can house fewer frogs than a regular vivarium.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

You should check out this thread...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3995-new-set-up.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> You should check out this thread...
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3995-new-set-up.html


He took it down as the moisture from the compost eventually got to be a problem. 

There are some fundemental issues with the setups that have to be addressed in order to prevent issues. 

The first and foremost is that you have to provide D3 to the frogs or you will be having issues once the stores in the tissues are exhausted. This can cause the false impression that the system works as it can take a number of months for the supplies to be exhausted. It doesn't matter if the frogs have access to a lot of calcium if they cannot use it. 

some comments 

Ed


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

@darts.in.a.den.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3995-new-set-up.html

You should still check out this thread... Very cool read and worthwhile experiment...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cam1941 said:


> @darts.in.a.den.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/3995-new-set-up.html
> 
> You should still check out this thread... Very cool read and worthwhile experiment...


That is the tank I was referring to as Ben took it down because of the excess moisture produced from the compost.... The last update from Ben I think was in 2007... I spoke to him about it after that point. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

One thing to think about is that if a vivarium is large enough to be self sustaining with a small enough population of frogs, how often will you see them? That alone might kill anyone's desire to try this. 

I personally think it's possible where do frogs get all their nutrients from in the wild? Do some research on these issues and try to mitigate them. Provide them with UV light, a diverse micro fauna, some form of calcium. 

If you search there are some stories of people forgetting frogs in abandoned vivariums and finding them a year later still alive. 

Even if it fails you might give people some ideas for how to make vivariums where the frogs have a much better buffer and require far less feeding.


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