# Is it possible to overfeed?



## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

I am new to the hobby, and I recently obtained 2 D. Azureus. They seem to be feeding fine, but I find a lot of left-over flies in the vivarium. They seem to have a rather limited range in the vivarium and won't travel too far to feed. I feed once a day w/ 25-30 flies a day, the frogs are 3 months out of water. I don't like to leave excess food with my other herps, and I wonder if the same is true with darts. Thanks in advance!


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Juvies I don't think it's possible to overfeed as long as the flies aren't crawling all over them. Adults? Ask Kyle. :wink:


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Varno,
Arklier is right. But it all depends the amount left in the tank a larger tank will allow the "extra" flies to spread out. The frogs will actually have something to hunt later. You just want to make sure that the flies are not crawling on the frogs, it kind of stresses them out! :shock: And if your tank isn't tight you'll be sharing your food with the "escapies"/flies. (family members don't seem to see the humor in this) :x 
If you are worried feed less more frequently.
Mike


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Thanks for the replies, there are no flies crawling on the frogs as far as I can tell. I hesitate to fed less because they always come out for the easy flies right after I place them in the tank, but they sure don't travel very far for the ones that scatter, I probably have 30-40 flies in excess in the tank at all times, maybe I'll just feed a little less frequently to try to force them to hunt. Dave


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

I would just keep doing it the way you are. You want the froglets to have constant access to food. Like others said though, just make sure they aren't crawling on the frogs. Fat froglets are happy froglets!


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Shoot yes its possible to overfeed, even juveniles. They don't need, or are they use to in the wild, a constant supply of easy food. Let'em hunt. Let the excess flies disappear for a day (or two) before feeding again. The froglets will grow slower and take longer to reach breeding age, but they will also live longer. People in this hobby always say that the frogs are what's important and then the breed the crap out of them and kill them off at a young age. Its inconsistant. Think about what you want - if you want a bunch of offspring and a short lived frog then keep doing what your doing. If you want a frog that produces less and lives 10 to 20 years then give them a break between feedings. Please understand this isn't directed at you personally, but at the hobby in general. Think about what your doing and why. 

I only feed my frogs twice a week, with an abundance of flies. After a couple days the flies are gone and the frogs don't eat for a day or two. They do fine, breed and everything. 

Best,

Chuck


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

Wow, Chuck. Thats interesting. I would think though, that the frogs in the wild would have a constant supply of food. The number of small insects on the forest floor, would make it hard to not find food everyday. I would think feeding them everyday would be more like their natural situation, instead of the other way around. But keep in mind also that underfed juveniles can have stunted growth. I don't think giving FROGLETS a constant supply of food, would adversly affect their life span. I understand why it would with adult frogs, but not froglets. Either way, this is an interesting topic.


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## Varno (Oct 19, 2004)

Thanks for all your posts, I believe Chuck has a good point. 
I don't intend to be a mass breeder, but I would like to try my hand at raising tads at some point. I also think Kevin is right on, all my other herps feed more heavily as juveniles and slow way up as they get older, I imagine darts are the same. As a newbie, I'm probably scrutinizing the frogs too much, but I find them fascinating! Thanks again! Dave


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Yes, it is possible to overfeed. Check out Kyle's Azureus in this thread!

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2372



Varno said:


> I am new to the hobby, and I recently obtained 2 D. Azureus. They seem to be feeding fine, but I find a lot of left-over flies in the vivarium. They seem to have a rather limited range in the vivarium and won't travel too far to feed. I feed once a day w/ 25-30 flies a day, the frogs are 3 months out of water. I don't like to leave excess food with my other herps, and I wonder if the same is true with darts. Thanks in advance!


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

With young frogs I try and feed every other day, sometimes less often. I generally feed alot and if there are still flies running around the cage I'll hold off another day or two till they're gone. My tincts take about a year to mature, which I believe is about right. I do end up loosing the weaker froglet, but I consider that acceptable for the long term good of the hobby. I think my view is much more long term than the average hobbyist - 20 years down the line, when we can no longer get wc, I want to get the same quality in animals as we have today (if not better). 

People may not think they are going to sell their offspring but Dendrobatids are really easy to keep and breed and once you have 20, 30, 40 babies hopping around that you have to feed you're going to think seriously about selling them (or at least giving them away). Many years ago I had one pair of E. tricolor produce nearly 300 babies in one season. I wasn't doing anything special - its just what they did. I couldn't give the things away - nobody wanted them. But that's another story. 

For adults I feed about twice a week (sometimes more, sometimes less) but I feed in abundance (100-200+ flies/adult tinctorius, maybe more). I don't get alot of breeding, but they do breed and my frogs are far from starving - they look fine. Not as thin as most wc and not as fat as some cb. I'm looking to keep the individual frogs at least 10 years and I'd prefer 20, but haven't reached that yet. To do that you can't breed them heavily and they can't be too fat - it shortens their life. IMHO a clutch of eggs once a month is fine. 

Best,

Chuck



bluetip said:


> I am genuinely curious, how often do you feed your frogs and how much at a time? For frogs and froglets? What would you recommend for froglets and frogs?
> 
> I understand the point that you were trying to drive at and honestly its the first time I'm actually I've seen such a post with that kind of thinking -- and I think it's very good and logical. I've kept cichlids for the longest time and for easily bred species, young prolific breeders really "max" out. Either they get stunted or produce sub quality offsprings (in that they themselves get stunted as well).
> 
> ...


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

All I do is put a FF culture in the tank...The frogs eat when they are hungry and I keep a couple spare ones and add the extras (this is for the colder months when I try to keep them fat). During the summer, however, I only feed 3-4 times a week, and my frogs are fine. I also think that you will, as an example, need to feed a Terriblis significantly more than say a Reticulatus. And then even more when they are breeding.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

EverettC said:


> All I do is put a FF culture in the tank...The frogs eat when they are hungry and I keep a couple spare ones and add the extras (this is for the colder months when I try to keep them fat). During the summer, however, I only feed 3-4 times a week, and my frogs are fine. I also think that you will, as an example, need to feed a Terriblis significantly more than say a Reticulatus. And then even more when they are breeding.


How do you make sure your frogs get supplements with this method? Are dusted flies added in addition to the cultures? 

Also, a word of warning about putting cultures in vivs. I've seen smaller frogs get mired in the soupy media and die. I lost a blue jeans pumilio that way once and know others who have lost retics, fantasticus, and imitator. Ouch! It's best to cover the opening of the culture with screen to keep frogs out but let flies through.


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## bluetip (May 18, 2004)

Hi Chuck/Everrett,

so when you see that the fruitflies are gone, you hold off for more than a day or two without food? There is really time of "starvation" then. Sounds logical to me. I understand the idea behind the practice but as I am going to be new with darts, I want to fully understand how the entire process of keeping them. 

Thanks so much!

bluetip


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

bluetip said:


> Hi Chuck/Everrett,
> 
> so when you see that the fruitflies are gone, you hold off for more than a day or two without food? There is really time of "starvation" then. Sounds logical to me. I understand the idea behind the practice but as I am going to be new with darts, I want to fully understand how the entire process of keeping them.
> 
> ...


I like to just watch the condition of the frogs. You don't want hips and ribs sticking out like a starving puppy but you don't want fat, belly-dragging butterballs either. There should always be good meat on the hind legs, if they start losing muscle in the thighs, there is a problem. In general, I like to see the girth of the belly about the same width as the head unless I am trying to pump them up for breeding.


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