# egg fertilization



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

"the telltale black line splitting down the egg"i found this in another post.

i just got my first clutch of eggs from my vittatus and i did not notice a "split" down each egg. is this clevage between yolk/tad or just the line is the actual tad? does this mean they were successfuly fertilized. i know they had only been deposited for a few hours before i saw them (10 at most). i left them in the tank because ive heard it may be 24 hours before the male fertilizes them but i would like to take them out asap. ive also heard unfertilized eggs appear white but how long before you can see this? thanks for the help. this is my first batch and she laid nearly 20 eggs. what a trooper. thanks josh

24 hours later they appear black and white in the clear jelly. im going to upload a pic.


----------



## nburns (May 3, 2005)

The line through the "center" is the tad developing. It usually takes a couple days to notice this though so if you are seeing something similiar to this all in the same day as them being laid you are probably seeing something else. 

As far as bad eggs go it too can take a day or few to go bad. They don't always turn white as much as they get cloudy. 

Congrats on your first clutch. Nice size!


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

*pic*










pic of the eggs


----------



## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

Yeah those look fertilized, I think that one white egg is moldy though so you should remove it otherwise it could spread to some of the others.


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

is it the actual egg that clouds or the jelly immediatly surrounding the egg?


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

usually the first sign of an egg going bad will be the nucleus, or in later stages, the developing tad, will start to lose definition around the outside, and become "blurry", after that, it will quickly "fuzz" up, and be without a doubt bad.


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The egg clouds. The jelly never changes colors. It always is clear and with the consistancy of thick snot. 

I would cut that bad egg out with a razor blade right along the red lines I made. When you cut you also have to drag the blad sideways a bit to get the jelly to seperate.











*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

A syringe is also handy for removing bad eggs, I usually use a syringe in one hand and a blade or blade like instrument in the other hand.


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

What size syringe? I'm always looking for a better way to remove bad eggs because I've had alot of accidents happen.



*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

thanks guys. ill keep updating on what happens.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

defaced said:


> What size syringe? I'm always looking for a better way to remove bad eggs because I've had alot of accidents happen.


I just have a regular 10mL syringe sold to measure infant medicine.
To use it safely, use a blade to separate the bad egg from the others, or you may end up sucking up some good eggs with it.
Kevin Hoff had some really handy looking tips for syringes when I was at his house, but never got around to asking where he got them.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Its recomended to keep the eggs in the tank for 48 hours to allow for the fertilization of the highest % of eggs. It's not garenteed that all the eggs are fertilized after the initial courtship, and IMO part of the male gaurding the eggs is to keep other boys from having a chance at the eggs that weren't fertilized the first time around. I know "egg parasitism" by males in known in other species...

Again, personal experience with "bad" eggs is that they never change color (where the others would, depending on the species) and they do get that "fuzzy/blurry" look to them compared to the others, while the others start changing shape as they develop.


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

the white egg i was advised to cut out is the same as the others, they are all dark on one side and white on the other, when this pic was taken they were less that 24 hours old, 16-18 at most. the others seem to "roll" so the white side is down but the white one in the pic is upside down compared to the others. guess ill have to just wait and see what happens. so frustrating with the first clutch and tring to learn the ropes so quickly. 

YEA just checked the tanks and ive got 6 cobalt eggs too  im going to leave them in there for a while.

as a side note, if you left them in the tank would the adults carry them to water or is that just with the egg feeders. 

thanks josh


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's normal for species that have dark colored eggs to have hemispheric color differences initially before much development has occured - dark on top, light on the bottom, unless the egg clutch has been distrubed.

Egg care and protection, as well as tadpole transportation to a water source is characteristic of the family Dendrobatidae. These behavioral characteristics tie the family together more than the "poison dart" reputation does!

I've had non-egg feeding species (not thumbnails or eggfeeders) transport tads (tricolor and truncatus personally). The family is known for their relatively advanced egg and tad care as an evolutionary way to get their tads away from water that would have predators (such as fish), and since they have their eggs so far away from water they've had to figure out a way to get them to the much needed water, and it's to do it themselves!

Mantellas are an example of convergent evolution with PDFs, but they don't show the same tadpole care as PDFs do, they lay their eggs near water in pockets where the tadpoles will be flushed out into the water (but these waters do have the predators PDFs were trying to get away from).


----------



## TonyB (Oct 14, 2005)

*Eggs and spraying.*

I have 2 quick questions. I've never removed a bad egg from a clutch, and have never seen the mold/fungus spread to a good egg. Has anyone ever actually seen this happen, or have I just been lucky? I've probably had 20 or so clutches of leuc/tinc/azurues/tricolor eggs in the past year or so, and not once noticed this happening. I figure I'm more likely to damage a good egg in the process of taking a bad one out. 

Also, concerning spraying the eggs. I did find out the hard way that it's imperative to spray the eggs often or else a mold will grow on the top of them. Does everyone else spray their eggs, and if so what with? Just a regular spray bottle? I'm afraid the force might damage eggs, even on the finest spray setting. I haven't noticed this happening, but just thought I would ask.

Thanks for any replies.


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

i removed the eggs as suggested and now i have 15 little tads growing. also yesterday i saw a new batch of eggs. is it possible for a single frog as small as a vittatus to lay 3 clutches of 15-18 eggs with less than a week between each or is it better to assume i have 2 females. thanks for the help guys and girls. ill keep ya posted. i have a 10 gallon heavely planted tank for the tads with blackwater so any day now i can use it....later josh


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

*Re: Eggs and spraying.*



TonyB said:


> Does everyone else spray their eggs, and if so what with? Just a regular spray bottle? I'm afraid the force might damage eggs, even on the finest spray setting. I haven't noticed this happening, but just thought I would ask.
> 
> Thanks for any replies.


I spray Methylene blue solution with an atomizer type spayer. (super fine mist)


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

well guys and girls i now have 10 tads in the water of the original 16 eggs. not to mention 15 tads a week behind and 16 fertile eggs only a few days old.  now for the wait. anyone know how long vittatus take to morph? 60 days is what ive heard. thanks josh


----------



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

TonyB,
I have also never removed a bad egg and never had a problem w/ this 'fungus' spreading to other eggs. More times than not, the white eggs aren't infected with a fungus (check them out under a dissecting scope or microscope if you don't believe me  )

Also, Corey, you say:


> The family is known for their relatively advanced egg and tad care as an evolutionary way to get their tads away from water that would have predators (such as fish), and since they have their eggs so far away from water they've had to figure out a way to get them to the much needed water, and it's to do it themselves!


Do you have a citation that hypothesizes this for the selective pressure that forced Dendrobatids to start laying terrestrial eggs and showing parental care?

~B


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It was based of herpetology lecture from class a couple semesters ago, I don't know if it was a direct citation from a particular paper, or a general idea gathered from multiple ones. I don't have a citation listed specifically talking about dendrobatids in the lecture PPTs but they were given as one of multiple examples of an "amphibian trend towards terrestrialism" as well as frogs like the greenhouse frogs, whose eggs hatch out perfectly formed mini adults... very cool.


----------



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Kerokero,
Thanks for clarifying...I thought it was a specific reference to dendrobatids.
~B


----------



## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*Literature...*

Two good refs:

The Evolutionary Ecology of Phytotelmata use in Neotropical Poison frogs. Summers and McKeon 2004. In “Ecology and Evolution of Phytotelm-breeding Anurans” R. M. Lehtinen ed. Miscellaneous Publications, Museum of Zoology, University of Michigan, 193.

and 

Tadpoles: The Biology of Anuran Larvae by McDiarmid and Altig

Both explore the trend you are talking about.

Cheers!


----------



## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*Oops...*

Oops.. forgot another good one:

Magnusson, W. E. and J.-M. Hero (1991). "Predation and the evolution of complex oviposition behaviour in Amazon rainforest frogs." Oecologia 86: 310-318.


----------



## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

is there a page listing the period of time each species of dart takes to morph? or does anyone here know the times for tincs/vents/vittatus....that would make a good sticky!!!
thanks josh


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Doyle's Dart Den has alot of that kind of species specific information. Alot of it hasn't been updated in may years but it should all still be valid information.



*Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!*


----------



## RussS (Oct 11, 2005)

*Re: Eggs and spraying.*



TonyB said:


> I have 2 quick questions. I've never removed a bad egg from a clutch, and have never seen the mold/fungus spread to a good egg. Has anyone ever actually seen this happen, or have I just been lucky? I've probably had 20 or so clutches of leuc/tinc/azurues/tricolor eggs in the past year or so, and not once noticed this happening. I figure I'm more likely to damage a good egg in the process of taking a bad one out.
> 
> Also, concerning spraying the eggs. I did find out the hard way that it's imperative to spray the eggs often or else a mold will grow on the top of them. Does everyone else spray their eggs, and if so what with? Just a regular spray bottle? I'm afraid the force might damage eggs, even on the finest spray setting. I haven't noticed this happening, but just thought I would ask.
> 
> Thanks for any replies.


We've not removed the infertile eggs that started to mold and have not had a problem. We spray the eggs as well and never use meth-blue. Used to use MB on angelfish eggs and found it an incredible nusance.


----------

