# Mixing - can it be done? TONS OF PICTURES :)



## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

I wanted to share...here are some photos I took in 2008. My frogs lived together for 2 years before I had to sell them due to my daughters kidney failure. They were not dwarfed, not stressed out, slept together and didnt fight in the entire two years. No breeding occurred, which wasnt the purpose of housing them together anyways. 

Anyways, enjoy!

Every night they slept together..
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1745.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1739.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2109.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2201.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2102.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2033.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2022.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2011.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2005.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2004.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM2000.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1980.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1974.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1972.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1970.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1969.jpg


FEEDING TIME!! All posed to go...
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1964.jpg


Bath time!
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1954.jpg

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn176/pinkjello900/dart frogs/HPIM1739.jpg


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## steelyphil (May 8, 2010)

Its kind of sad that all of those frogs were houses in a tank that small.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

steelyphil said:


> Its kind of sad that all of those frogs were houses in a tank that small.


Hmm... I agree..

But things can appear smaller on the internet. My 20 tall was said to look smaller than a 10 through pics.

If you don't mid me asking, how large is that tank? And how many frogs did you keep in it?

Oh, and another question, not to sound rude or anything, as I am asking this out of pure curiosity, but did you post this just to sir things up? It seems you are aware of many peoples' opinion on the matter....

Just sayin'....


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

they were housed in a 10 gallon a few days until i got my 37 tall organized. 

I think this question comes up a lot, can they mix..and im posting my pics of my experience. 

and why does everyone apologize here in every post for trying not to sound rude..?

everyone is entitled to their opinions..and i have one too. Im not going to force it upon anyone tho. 

If a forum isnt willing to allow different opinions and sharing, then what is a forum for?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

In the other thread he said it was a 33 gallon tank and there are 12 frogs in it.

How long had this tank been set up for at the time of these photos?


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

forums are full of people who feel it is appropriate to say things like this..and that is what i find sad. 



steelyphil said:


> Its kind of sad that all of those frogs were houses in a tank that small.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

pinkjello said:


> they were housed in a 10 gallon a few days until i got my 37 tall organized.
> 
> I think this question comes up a lot, can they mix..and im posting my pics of my experience.
> 
> ...



You had 12 frogs in a 10 gallon? You said you sold all these right?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

pinkjello said:


> No breeding occurred


I can't imagine why...


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

thought it was..but remembered it was an odd shape and size. im selling a 33 g right now, so thats probably stuck in my head.

so the small tank pics were sept 14, 08, and the second tank pics that i took were in october 08. so being that i had my spinal fusion in feb 08, which is 7 months since i started up the small tank, and i had them housed in a few different tanks before my spinal fusion, which i didnt like so sold those and transferred one of my aquariums into the tank you see...and ..oh..what was your question again? 

are you trying to figure something out or just being rude?  just asking...






thedude said:


> In the other thread he said it was a 33 gallon tank and there are 12 frogs in it.
> 
> How long had this tank been set up for at the time of these photos?


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I think that is Sad.


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

so i see we are starting to be abnoxious now..i cant see how that will help anyone on this forum...

i cant say im surprised at all..





Tony said:


> I can't imagine why...


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Dart frogs are breeding machines, give them their minimum requirements they will breed. The fact you claim there was no breeding indicates you did have issues. It is a good thing you do not have them together any longer, I can guarantee you would have eventually would have had aggression and dead frogs. Some of these frogs can take two
Or more years to really reach maturity.
I learned the hard way years ago that even a 2.1.0 tinc tank eventually leads to a dead frog, even after living together for two years.

So do you still have frogs? *edited*

Yes it may take time, the aggression will eventually show. Often you may not see it until you start having frogs drop off. 
In the long run the frogs are better served by a 1.1.0 ratio
*edited*


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

pinkjello said:


> they were housed in a 10 gallon a few days until i got my 37 tall organized.
> 
> I think this question comes up a lot, can they mix..and im posting my pics of my experience.
> 
> ...


Heres the thing about this though... there are people here that know a LOT more than you do. Husbandry methods talked about on this site have been developed by those people who have spent a lot of time on them. For you to act like your single experience means it will work every time shows your own disrespect for the concept of the forum. You are new here, this topic has been covered ad nauseum. I can guarantee you have no new information to offer toward it, which in turn is why people become hostile towards you when you resist them in the manor that you have.

Most times when this topic is brought up the response ends up being "it can be done, but it is not recommended". The people that typically resist that are simply those that cannot accept it because it is not what they wanted to hear.

Look, we get it... your frogs lived together and did not die... congrats... but the full experience of the people that have dealt with these species since they were first introduced to captivity contradicts what you, an individual with VERY limited experience, are saying...


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

carola1155 said:


> Heres the thing about this though... there are people here that know a LOT more than you do. Husbandry methods talked about on this site have been developed by those people who have spent a lot of time on them. For you to act like your single experience means it will work every time shows your own disrespect for the concept of the forum. You are new here, this topic has been covered ad nauseum. I can guarantee you have no new information to offer toward it, which in turn is why people become hostile towards you when you resist them in the manor that you have.
> 
> Most times when this topic is brought up the response ends up being "it can be done, but it is not recommended". The people that typically resist that are simply those that cannot accept it because it is not what they wanted to hear.
> 
> Look, we get it... your frogs lived together and did not die... congrats... but the full experience of the people that have dealt with these species since they were first introduced to captivity contradicts what you, an individual with VERY limited experience, are saying...


Well said!


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

Im sharing..thats it, nothing more. 

I think we know that this forum has its issues. Troll ?? not sure exactly why you would insult me this way, but i have no control as to how you treat others. You are responsible for your own actions and words. 

I have had some great experiences and I just thought i would share. I thought it was adorable how the auratus and azureus slept together..one by one they would crawl into that spot and once the first one was settled, the second one would crawl in, get settled and then the third one would crawl in and get settled. Now how is that not adorable? I watched this ritual in each tank they were in. For those of you who think this experience isnt worth sharing, its sad that you cant open your minds to the possibility that this could happen and did happen.


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

and you know how much experience i have because.....??? anyways, SOME of my pictures are up to share, like i said. Pics are worth a thousand words. To attack me...well, not much has been gained with that now has it..


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

pinkjello said:


> Im sharing..thats it, nothing more.
> 
> I think we know that this forum has its issues. Troll ?? not sure exactly why you would insult me this way, but i have no control as to how you treat others. You are responsible for your own actions and words.
> 
> I have had some great experiences and I just thought i would share. I thought it was adorable how the auratus and azureus slept together..one by one they would crawl into that spot and once the first one was settled, the second one would crawl in, get settled and then the third one would crawl in and get settled. Now how is that not adorable? I watched this ritual in each tank they were in. For those of you who think this experience isnt worth sharing, its sad that you cant open your minds to the possibility that this could happen and did happen.


When you have 12 frogs in a 10 gallon (or even a 30 whatever) and limited hides and plants, I'm not at all surprised they "adorably" crawled into the same spot together. *edited


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## Jadenkisses (Jun 9, 2010)

I have to say, it sadden me very much to see those pictures of all those different species of frogs crammed in such as small tank. I don't think it's cute or adorable. I think it's irresponcible.
It's always upsetting to see people who are more concerned about their viewing pleasure than the requirements of the animals under their care.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

pinkjello said:


> Im sharing..thats it, nothing more.
> 
> For those of you who think this experience isnt worth sharing, its sad that you cant open your minds to the possibility that this could happen and did happen.


Read my previous post. These frogs are territorial. Just because you did not have issues prior to getting rid of them says nothing except you were lucky. 
Cute? I call it irresponsible. Any reading on the subject would indicate that sharing such a post as this would make you a troll. In the long run the frogs are better served in other conditions. Again read my other post. I predict a locked thread before long. Congrats on your cute pictures


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

My thoughts exactly!!!!!!


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I know how much experience you have because you couldnt even properly identify how to sex a tinctorius earlier today... 

The fact of the matter is that your singular experience is outweighed by other members of this board... and by you coming on here preaching about how its all cute can set a bad example. That example will lead to other new members to go out and do similar things and potentially have a bad experience doing it... at which point they will come back to us asking what went wrong. We are voicing our opinions in the best interest of the frogs in this hobby and the potential new members of this hobby whom we want to have a rewarding experience.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

OK, I see at least 6 frogs in a 10g (reported to be more), a DRRRRYYYYY tank with a screen top meaning humidity is terrible, extremely limited hiding places and very little way of ground cover or plants, and of course various well documented territorial and aggresive frogs. Ummm, yeah, your husbandry skills are awesome... how you didn't kill them all is the most amazing thing here.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*edited*

And apparently, '*edited*' is too short a message.


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

im sure this will go on and on, bash away. It just shows the forums inability to adjust to new things,thoughts,suggestions,different opinions,different experiences, and new people to the forum. Maybe if someone was respecful i might explain certain things...but when your disrespectful, theres no point. Irresponsible..not likely. Inexperienced, no. This should be closed, because anyone reading this that is new to the forum would be appauled at how the forum treats people.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

HAHAHA! *edited*


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

The thing is, I think everyone has done their duty in stating why mixing is not considered best practice on this thread, and on the other moss/leaf litter thread, and the other one today . Everyone really held themselves in check for the most part and were verrrry eloquent andpatient with the mixers.. 

At a certain point I think responding to the mixer is not helpful anymore and in fact gives attention to the mixer that could better be spent elsewhere.

Sally


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

pinkjello said:


> im sure this will go on and on, bash away. It just shows the forums inability to adjust to new things,thoughts,suggestions,different opinions,different experiences, and new people to the forum. Irresponsible..not likely. Inexperienced, no. This should be closed, because anyone reading this that is new to the forum would be appauled at how the forum treats people.


Do you think you are some kind of pioneer here that figured something out?? NO You are also not the first person to get VERY lucky and not kill all their frogs. Irresponsible... ABSOLUTELY. You have no regard to the YEARS (actually decades) of husbandry skills that have led to these conclusions and you have no regard for your animals well being. Inexperienced... ABSOLUTELY. What is your experience? Putting 12 frogs in a tank and thinking you have accomplished something? Wow... may I bow to your incredible skill that completely rebuffs ALL known husbandry knowledge and totally shatters all known field studies by ACTUAL scientist that show the aggressive nature of these frogs? I can say without a doubt that if new people come here and see how we treat you the first thing they will wonder is "Why" 

*edited*


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

srrrio said:


> The thing is, I think everyone has done their duty in stating why mixing is not considered best practice on this thread, and on the other moss/leaf litter thread, and the other one today . Everyone really held themselves in check for the most part and were verrrry eloquent andpatient with the mixers..
> 
> At a certain point I think responding to the mixer is not helpful anymore and in fact gives attention to the mixer that could better be spent elsewhere.
> 
> Sally


Good point Sally... total waste of time.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

pinkjello said:


> im sure this will go on and on, bash away. It just shows the forums inability to adjust to new things,thoughts,suggestions,different opinions,different experiences, and new people to the forum. Maybe if someone was respecful i might explain certain things...but when your disrespectful, theres no point. Irresponsible..not likely. Inexperienced, no. This should be closed, because anyone reading this that is new to the forum would be appauled at how the forum treats people.


New? Like was explained before this is not new. The practices and experiences of those prior and such have come up with the husbandry practices that are proven. Your post is proven to end in dead frogs. You are the one showing disrespect to the frogs. Yours is not a NEW idea and as an old one has been proven to end in dead frogs. Thank you suggestions that I am disrespectful as the rest of us. Thank you for showing that most people cannot put common and sense together.


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

The only thing you're showing in this thread pinkjello is your lack of intelligent argument. Look at the last 25 threads about mixing. Your arguments, stance, even the way you attack in your replies is identical to every other irresponsible person that has brought this up.

There is a reason the people on this board feel the way they do. There is a reason we keep them separate, and care about the well being of the animals. The only thing you've shown us with your pics is your inability to use a search feature, any research before you put the frogs together, and to create a suitable vivarium for the creatures.

*edited*


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

You know just the fact that you have that many frogs in such a small tank is irresponsible. *edited*


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

pinkjello said:


> they were housed in a 10 gallon a few days until i got my 37 tall organized.
> 
> I think this question comes up a lot, can they mix..and im posting my pics of my experience.
> 
> ...


Wow, you've got guts...I'll give you that. 

A forum is a place for us to share our ideas and opinions even if they may not be ones you want to hear, or agree with. You are allowed to post your pics here and state your opinion that this is a perfectly fine set up...just as we are allowed to post a response with a differing opinion. There is a difference between stating a strong emotional reaction or a negative opinion regarding your set up and being out right intentionally insulting. If you are insulted by our evaluations of your husbandry and opinions that is unfortunate but you must realize you have invited them by posting this and frankly it is your own fault that you are getting the results you are. It could also be argued that a post of this type could or would be viewed in and of itsself as an insult to many people here.

Most people here in my opinion have fallen on the side of not being outright insulting but just expressing a strong emotional response to what they see as a travesty or their negative opinion of your setup. I assume you created this thread because you wanted a response right? I'm sorry you are not getting the ones you want...but you are getting the ones you should have expected. If you didn't want them, why invite them by posting?

You should keep in mind also that you have 22 posts, we don't know you...we only have your word on your level of experience and that this setup was "working". Most everything you've shown and told us is not inspiring confidence in your word, or your husbandry practices. Even if it was "working" 1 successful example does not mean that huge risks did not exist or that it was a responsible thing to do.

A few comments on your setup...

1. I does look fairly dry.

2. Your "water feature" with the exception of the stones in it has no suitable surface area for biological filtration, nor is it planted, nor can plant roots penetrate the container to filter the water...so unless you were changing the water every day or 2 its likely you were creating a fairly unsanitary area in the tank.

3. Did you seperate the drainage layer from the substrate? It doesn't look like it, this can lead to unsanitary conditions. A few places like that around a pond or something probably isn't a big deal, but the whole tank being like that could lead to some issues. Someone correct me if i'm wrong?

4. Your interpretation that the frogs are so comfortable together they are willing to "cuddle" is likely mistaken and in fact what you are seeing is frogs so stressed that they are willing to compromise there usual tendency to stay apart to share limited cover for some small sense of security. Basically they are probably doing all they can to mitigate the stress you put them under. You forced them into unnatural behavior which will cause stress likely shortening their life spans and making them more prone to disease/infection.

5. You have created the most basic of vivaria, that is likely not well suited to the high load of biological waste from so many animals and one most keepers would not be comfortable keeping a large number of animals in for that reason among others.


As for the rest of my reply, I'm just going to repost what I said in the other thread where you discussed this tank because honestly I don't think it can be said enough. It looks like it is going to be impossible to change your opinion...I don't know what else we can do, but perhaps we can change someone else's and prevent them from doing something that will harm their animals and likely cause them emotional distress. 

So here is what I said before for the benefit of others since you seem to be beyond reach...



pinkjello said:


> "Originally Posted by pinkjello
> I was thinking..to those who appose....I am starting to think that this is more for those who care to breed. If your intention is not to breed then mixing frogs that are closely related in living conditions works.
> 
> Noobies have to do their homework of course, but to tell them no..is an out-right lie. Dont lie to noobies..its not fair to them. Thats what forums are for - to get ALL the information..not just info that you feel is appropriate. That also isnt fair.
> ...



I agree that some people basically state what amounts to a lie when they just flat out say "No"....that why I sometimes chime in and try to explain the situation is more complicated then that. I think the people who say "No" have good intentions. They are just trying to discourage people from doing something that is risky to the animals, can and often does fail...Ending in broken hearts and dead animals. 

BTW its not just about breeding, its about stress, and some frogs out competing others and about 100 other factors to consider. As far as the stress thing goes even experts find it hard if not impossible to identify all the signs of stress. You had your tank running for 2 years before you sold it...but there could have been enough subtle stress occurring to cut the life span of some of those frogs in half, and even half their span is more then 5 years, so you were still a long ways off from seeing the true results of your handy work.

Few of us here will flat out argue that a mixed species tank is impossible, though some state their case a little to simply and it can be interpreted that way. The problem and the reason we discourage people is mostly because we don't want new people thinking this is a great idea with little risk to the animals. Its more risky then keeping single species/morph vivs for an experienced person...for a new person it amounts to something like Russian roulette. Its about degrees of risk. We discourage new people from taking HUGE degrees of risk because thats the responsible thing to do...the more experience you have the more leeway most of us are willing to give you, but there are limits even then. My guess is you exceeded the limits of what 90% of people here would give even some kind of frog god.

Just because something can be done or can work doesn't mean it is always a good idea. I can put roller skates on my dog and maybe it will take to them like a duck to water and start doing all kinds of cool tricks...but it could also break its leg in the first 30 seconds. A silly example true, but honestly its no more dramatic then a mixed species tank with almost 3 times as many frogs in it as most experienced keepers would be comfortable with. I personally wouldn't be comfortable putting that many frogs regardless of how awsome the viv was in anything less then 100-120 gallons if not more. I wouldn't mix that many species/morphs in any tank regardless of size, definitely not one that small. 

You took the risk of mixing morphs and species and compounded it by shoving them all into a tank that is at most no matter how heavily planted or how many ledges are on the back ground, good for a max of 6-8 frogs probably in most responsibly keepers opinions and even that may pushing it. I bet the majority would say 3-5 frogs max.

Did it work? For 2 years, ok great....you got lucky. You basically played Russian roulette with your animals. You didn't take a little risk, even a questionable risk, you took a HUGE risk. I can go get a revolver right now, put a bullet in the chamber and spin it...pull the trigger 5 times without spinning it again and have it work out all 5 of those times. Hell it might even be fun and life affirming, utterly exhilarating even if it is scary...but if I keep it up I'm eventually gonna blow my head off. 

Would it have continued to work? Maybe...but the whole thing could have fallen a part at any time, and with that many frogs crapping and living in close quarters the more time passed the more likely it was to fail probably. Now back to our Russian roulette game...Ok some dude comes a long and sees how much fun you're having and wants to play do you just tell him how great it is and hand the gun over? Please tell me you atleast explain to this guy how dangerous what you are doing is. 

Now if you sold that tank with all those frogs in it to some person, especially a new one...you basically just handed them a loaded gun and said "Ok there ya go...have fun"...I can only hope you explained to them what they were getting themselves into. If you didn't you were completely irresponsible. In the post from you I quoted you offered some warning...I hope the person who got the tank/frogs got a similar one at least.

Of course most people would argue that playing Russian roulette is pretty irresponsible in the first place. Is it wrong to play that game, or do what you did with those frogs and that viv? I can't say for sure, I'm not the moral authority but I'd bet my life (And it would be a lot safer bet then playing Russian roulette) that the vast majority of people here would say you were in the wrong. Does that make our opinion right? No, but it probably shows that odds are you were in the wrong. 

I'm probably considered one of the more moderate people here like I said, and even when its just my opinion that someone is in the wrong I usually won't say it outright because I generally find most situations are grey enough I don't feel It is my place. However in this case it is black and white enough in my opinion to state my disagreement outright. So consider the majority of this post me doing that. I'm not saying you are a horrible person that doesn't care about their animals....but I feel in this case you were highly irresponsible. My opinion may not matter to you but I state it all the same because it may mean something to someone else reading this...possibly considering attempting a similar game of Russian roulette and I don't wanna see anyone blow their head off.

You may think my dog on roller skates and Russian roulette examples are silly and/or overly dramatic but I feel they are on par with what you did and I'd be willing to put money on it that most here would feel similar.

Btw I'll also point out something regarding what you said about not mixing species/morphs that could breed....Every species/morph you had in that tank could have potentially bred with any other. So you went against that yourself. Even if you had no water in that tank and it was impossible for a tad to morph out, breeding causes a degree of stress to the animals and they could have been going through the motions or even laying infertile eggs which would have put them under some amount of undue stress.

Anyways I'm ok with you sharing your "good" experience, and I'm not here to fight with you either but I did feel like you crossed the line enough that it warranted something being said...even by me, who hardly ever will say such things...at most they are just implied sometimes, but I had to make an exception this time.

Sincerely,
Dave

P.S. Best wishes to you, your daughter and the rest of your family. Hope everything works out ok."


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Oh man. I was considering warning you before you posted this when you still had time to modify it initially. Your register date on this forum was July 2008. Since then there have been several mixing threads and plenty of examples where users went astray posting their stories/pictures about mixing. Not one (that I saw) garnered any praise or understanding from other users. What they got was the general populace of the board vehemently advising against the practice of mixing species or morphs. If you spent any time on the board or did a single search on the subject you would have seen this. My guess is you did in fact. This was either some misguided attempt to gain acceptance from the people by showing your prowess as a hobbyist and cracking the DaVinci Code on frog mixing, which you obviously did not, or you're here to start trouble. Either way you came to the wrong place for a pat on the back. Now then, these are your animals. If you want to mix them and keep them in such a state that's your prerogative but be aware not too many people on here will have anything to do with you in the future. By the way please don't insult our intelligence by feigning righteous indignation when the assumption was made that you don't have much experience with these animals. That is very obvious. My advice, if you care to hear it, is to go setup several tanks for the individual species and morphs. Make the pairs you can then sell and/or trade the extras. I've been keeping darts for a long time, I, we, have all made mistakes along the way. The people on this forum are very helpful and understanding as long as you make an effort to learn from your mistakes and utilize the vast amount of collected knowledge here. If you choose not to don't share it or expect to be welcomed with open arms when you do. I guess that's all I'm really trying to say.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave,

I'm taking the liberty to elaborate on a couple of points, so the cut and paste is not aimed at you, it is to provide a little more information. 



Dendro Dave said:


> 4. Your interpretation that the frogs are so comfortable together they are willing to "cuddle" is likely mistaken and in fact what you are seeing is frogs so stressed that they are willing to compromise there usual tendency to stay apart to share limited cover for some small sense of security. Basically they are probably doing all they can to mitigate the stress you put them under. You forced them into unnatural behavior which will cause stress likely shortening their life spans and making them more prone to disease/infection.
> 
> 
> 5. You have created the most basic of vivaria, that is likely not well suited to the high load of biological waste from so many animals and one most keepers would not be comfortable keeping a large number of animals in for that reason among others.


In enclosures like this, the reason the frog's don't fight is because the density of animals is too great for the resource allocations and the high density prevents a frog from being able to focus aggression on another frog due to the interference from other animals (this is the method used for alligator and crocodile farming to keep the damage of the hides down). Unless approached with care, this lack of aggression can be misconstrued as being without stress... the stress level is still there which if not dealt with in other ways can be a problem in the long run as the frogs can adapt to it, but the addition of another stressor, can result in rapid death. 

If the conditions observed were the norm, then you basically reared your frogs under semi-drought conditions as indicated by the dry surface substrate. The multiple use of a single refugia is not an indication of tolerance in the frog's but of insufficient appropriate refugia and forcing the population together into a smaller area. This is pretty well studied phenomena in other amphibians like red backed salamanders. 

I personally do not have an issue with the screen as they are fine if the humidity can be kept up in the enclosure and I personally think the hobby keeps thier frogs with too little ventilation in an attempt to maximize activity periods beyond those found in the wild and to maximize the length of reproductive periods.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I agree with Ed, after seeing these pictures I thought the only way they didn't kill each other off was because the density of frogs was so high. They couldn't single out one frog as easily because the aggression was spread around more evenly. So you may not have seen one frog getting skinny and bullied, but that absolutely does not mean there was no aggression. The "adorable frogs sleeping together" isn't natural at all. Many of my frog pairs (that breed well and are in a good enclosure, mind you) sleep in different places. They aren't social in the sense that they want to be together when they sleep, they each need their own place. What happened here is you did not give nearly enough places for them to sleep so they had to crowd together in one place, which I am sure was not beneficial in any way to them. I would almost think if you had taken maybe 3-4 frogs out, hell would be unleashed as the density of frogs was lowered and they focused their aggression more effectively on individuals, killing them off one by one.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I`m not calling you a liar, but I`m having a hard time buying this.
There`s so many things wrong here I don`t even know where to begin.
I just can`t see how those frogs can appear to be that healthy under those conditions.
I noticed in your feeding photo the flies were not even dusted.
I guess I can give you a Pass on that one because I skip a dusting at times.
I also can`t imagine the humidity in that tank being more than about 50-60%.
Also, you got pretty offensive on your first few responses.
What did you expect?
Can you at least throw some leaf litter down so the frogs aren`t sitting on that bone dry substrate.
Good luck.
I guess we were due for a good mixing throw down!!

John


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I usually just read through posts like this and move on without posting my opinion because this is usually a newbie thing that will pass once the person has conducted the proper research on these guys. I too, once thought of having a mixed tank. This was when I first started and did not know the basics. To post this thread is very irresponsible because it gives newbie's the idea that they CAN have a mixed tank and everything will be just fine. The fact is that Tincs can show aggression as young as 3 months. I have seen it with froglets and had to seperate them. IMO, a pair (1 male and 1 female) of adult Tincs need a 20g long minimum tank with lots of hides and heavy cover. You had to know that you would get slammed for posting such a thing here, especially if you have been a member here for a couple of years. People here are VERY protective of their animals. A lot of time and effort goes into these frogs and everyone wants what's best for them. I have people contact me on a regular basis who want to have mixed tanks. I ALWAYS direct them here to search the forum for mixing threads. After reading through the information, ALL of them come to realize the importance of having a single species tank and focus on one particular frog in which to create the proper habitat for. You, my friend, are just uncaring. You do not care that these frogs were miserable or stressed out. Furthermore, I wouldn't expect anyone to sell frogs to you knowing what you were doing with them. Normally, I would have just read this post and moved on not wanting to be rude or hypocritical as that is not my style, but I just couldn't help myself.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

*edited*

Apparently, '*edited*' is too short a message to post.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

This entire thread is going to get an overhaul....no doubt.

I'm at work and dont have the time...but really. Not how a community should behave IMO


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

FROG POLICE...blood in the water!!!!! I know everyone wants frogs to be kept in the most optimum of conditions but...
These frogs are in a helluva a lot better shape than I have seen many in, frogs get skinny and die in importers enclosures every day when packed like sardines. What's sad is when everyone gets a chance to bash it gets to the point where the next post will read....TAKE HIM AND STONE HIM!!
As long as i read NO BREEDING OCCURED let the man keep his pets the way he wants, if you don't agree great but the negative nature of some of these posts gets so personal and immature it removes most of the credibility of the poster....
however I will admit 3 or 4 pages of childish ranting can be pretty entertaining, I sure miss the days of Rod Mitchell!!

You can also assume if all frogs were sold this poster may have put this up just to inflame a bunch of people into just the responses the thread got, ignoring someone like this would be the best response.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Everyone on this forum knows that I keep a mixed enclosure and have done so for many years. That being said, your setup and apparent lack of planning is what fuels the ammunition of all those that argue against why mixing should never happen. It is very apparent that you were hooked into all the cool colors and patterns and setup a quick tank to keep a bunch of frogs. Even with all the precautions and planning I still get the same backlash due to hobbiest that throw 12 frogs into a 10 gallon tank. Mixing is very obtainable but that comes with gaining knowledge and experience. I have to agree that the frogs are much better of now that they have been sold.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

I must say that mixed tanks are cool and I have seen the light. I will now tell anyone that asks heck yes you can put whatever you want in the tank. Thanks for bringing up population density in the thread, now I will go as far as saying the more bodies we can get in there the better they will do. When they come back and ask why do I have a dead frog and such, I will just tell them lets just replace em until we figure out what happened.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

markpulawski said:


> You can also assume if all frogs were sold this poster may have put this up just to inflame a bunch of people into just the responses the thread got, ignoring someone like this would be the best response.


I couldn't agree more. The OP is just someone wanting attention. He clearly knows many peoples' opinion on the subject, and just weanted to stir things up. I fail to see how this contributes to this forum at all. This isn't a newbie asking questions, nor is it a experienced frogger sharing his findings, this is just a blatant attempt to start a flame war.
Congratulations, pinkjello, you have succeded to anger members on a dart frog forum. That is an AMAZING feat!

In all seriousness, I, personally think this thread should be locked. I think we all need to take a breath, calm down, and stop feeding the wildfire. 
-Matt


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Okay, I think this thread was ment to just piss people off or soething. I don't see why this guy is trying to act like he knows more then a lot of experienced people on here. I think it is rude for you to be saying stufflike that to the people that have been doing this way way more then you. Tons of years. 12 frogs in a 30 gallon is way too small. In a 20 galon I have I only have 2 frogs. And when you say this is a crapy forum because everyone is hammering you because of ur opinion? Everyone is hammering you dude because it's just a wrong this to do. You don't put differet species together. Just like other kinds of animals, you wouldn't do that. And out of those 12 frogs you said there was no breeding at all in 2 years? In my 20 gallon I have 1 male azureus and 1 female azureus and they started breeding and producing a month after they were together. Like said a bunch already, this is setting a bad example for new froggers that migt read it and think it's okay to cram different species together. When I first started out I had a citronella and azureus together, but a lot of very experienced and nice people on here informed me it is a bad idea for them to be together. So I separated them and now they each have a female and they are producing eggs. These people on here are just trying to help you dude, just try and listen to what they are saying. That have a lot of good info.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Personally, I think the best response would have been no response. How about we all try ignoring these types of threads and see if they continue...


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Everyone on this forum knows that I keep a mixed enclosure and have done so for many years. That being said, your setup and apparent lack of planning is what fuels the ammunition of all those that argue against why mixing should never happen. It is very apparent that you were hooked into all the cool colors and patterns and setup a quick tank to keep a bunch of frogs. Even with all the precautions and planning I still get the same backlash due to hobbiest that throw 12 frogs into a 10 gallon tank. Mixing is very obtainable but that comes with gaining knowledge and experience. I have to agree that the frogs are much better of now that they have been sold.


I was going to reference your tank earlier because there is a strong difference between a well thought out and smart planned tank (yours) and whatever this thread is 

thats all ill say cause i already feel bad for feeding the troll and it looks like zack b. already had quite the workload


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## Marty71 (Nov 9, 2006)

Reading through this thread is like watching Superbad on NBC....


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Marty71 said:


> Reading through this thread is like watching Superbad on NBC....


 Before the editing, it was like watching Superbad on HBO, but hey, Dendroboard ain't no cable TV. 

Keep it clean, and be civil. That's all I ask.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

pinkjello said:


> and why does everyone apologize here in every post for trying not to sound rude..?
> 
> everyone is entitled to their opinions..


followed almost immediately by



pinkjello said:


> forums are full of people who feel it is appropriate to say things like this..and that is what i find sad.


I _love_ this 



It’s said that there’s no aggression in this tank, but… just from the pictures it seems like I can see some aggression. Picture 1745 and 1739… pictures with a frog sitting on another frog’s head. 

Also from the thread “Agonistic behaviour in dart frogs”:



Philsuma said:


> *"Statue" behavior* - A very subtle and often misinterpreted sign of aggression where the dominant frog will stand stock still and posture- facing the other frog, in a effort to intimidate and dominate another potential subordinant frog.
> 
> 
> Probably unnoticed or misinterpreted by 95% of all hobbyists......


Look at pictures 2011 and 2004 and tell me that those pictures don’t look suspiciously like the description above.




There are of course many other things that I can complain about this thread, but these are the things that came to mind


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

pinkjello said:


> thought it was..but remembered it was an odd shape and size. im selling a 33 g right now, so thats probably stuck in my head.
> 
> so the small tank pics were sept 14, 08, and the second tank pics that i took were in october 08. so being that i had my spinal fusion in feb 08, which is 7 months since i started up the small tank, and i had them housed in a few different tanks before my spinal fusion, which i didnt like so sold those and transferred one of my aquariums into the tank you see...and ..oh..what was your question again?
> 
> are you trying to figure something out or just being rude?  just asking...


first of all, how is that rude? and 2nd, yes i am trying to figure something out. you cant post pictures of a tank that was JUST set up like this. we need pics of the tank before you sold them to see that they were alive and well for 2 years.





pinkjello said:


> and you know how much experience i have because.....??? anyways, SOME of my pictures are up to share, like i said. Pics are worth a thousand words. To attack me...well, not much has been gained with that now has it..


we know because nobody with any kind of experience with working with these frogs would put ANY kind, mixed or not, into a 10 gallon in those numbers! tincs are VERY territorial, i wouldnt put 12 in a 400 gallon tank.




pinkjello said:


> im sure this will go on and on, bash away. It just shows the forums inability to adjust to new things,thoughts,suggestions,different opinions,different experiences, and new people to the forum. Maybe if someone was respecful i might explain certain things...but when your disrespectful, theres no point. Irresponsible..not likely. Inexperienced, no. This should be closed, because anyone reading this that is new to the forum would be appauled at how the forum treats people.


its not that we cant adjust to new things (clay substrate anyone?). these ideas arent new! they are just STUPID (thats rude)! we know what works! especially for common frogs.

do you know why all the frogs in the hobby are bred more often now than back in the 80s and 90s?? its because as a hobby we have grown and learned. we know what works because people have been doing this for a long time and have a LOT of experience with these frogs.

heres what your "new ideas" are, and also a list of what not to do (especially when you are a newbie):

1. use a 10 gallon for a lot of frogs.
2. mix same niche, territorial species.
3. put 12 frogs in any tank.
4. keep it dry.
5. dont use a dividing layer.
6. have a screen top.
7. use very few hiding places.
8. use very few plants.

if you think those are great ideas (obviously you do) than go for it. but dont tell us we are narrow minded because we dont think its a good idea. there are people on here that have done this for 10-20 or more years.


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

You Know, perhaps how to handle these issues is not to comment and feed a the ID.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Freeradical53 said:


> You Know, perhaps how to handle these issues is not to comment and feed a the ID.


Usually, I agree that not to comment, or to just make a brief statement and point the person in the direction of past mixing threads is the way to go, but this person was so casual about the whole thing and on top of the mixing compounded the issue by shoving them all into a viv that was way to inadequate in size and design for those frogs.

I'm also not the type of person that thinks saying something can be done amounts to encouragement, but this person came off way to much even for my tastes like they were saying... "Hey look at my neat pics of a bunch of different frogs thrown into a viv that is way to little for them all. Tada! ...It works!!! It's that easy everyone! " In cases like that, I do think something should be said to discourage that person from continuing those practices or others (especially new people) from trying such things that irresponsibly.

In this case a particular quote comes to mind...
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" - Unknown (usually attributed to Edmund Burke)


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

Your post's confuse me :/ they seem strangely contradictory/secretive/I don't know what to think...

Meant to be rude/Raging:
I looked at those pictures and read some of your strewn fact's and I surprised that they lived long enough for you to sell :/

Your just a troll right? D:


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## vugger#1 (Jul 20, 2009)

please stop posting to this thread!!!!


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