# Oddball Green Sirensis



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

We morphed out an odd Sirensis. He looks a bit melanistic. He's hanging out with his brother in some of the pics so you can see a nice comparison. Just thought I'd share.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Are you saying that the frog is an oddball or that it was bred by an oddball - just trying to be clear.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Maybe a little of both.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Cool. I have a highland lamasi that has an x on its back instead of racing stripes


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogparty said:


> Cool. I have a highland lamasi that has an x on its back instead of racing stripes


Sweet. You should throw a pic up sometime. Of course Jim's going to call you names.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I save them all for you Doug. 



Pumilo said:


> Sweet. You should throw a pic up sometime. Of course Jim's going to call you names.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Dont lie Doug, we all know this is part of your sinister breeding programs to produce a glow in the dark sirensis that flashes "Doug's Bugs dot Com" repeatedly......


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Dont lie Doug, we all know this is part of your sinister breeding programs to produce a glow in the dark sirensis that flashes "Doug's Bugs dot Com" repeatedly......


Yeah, I'm a student of DendroDave! I think I might need his help on this one. I have a million emails from people trying to buy carpet. I just realized he's flashing Doug's *RUGS* dot Com. It might be easier to just clear out my collection and start raising carpets in the back yard. What do those grow on?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

We have a couple of neat Sirensis that just morphed out. I thought these were Amelanistic but after doing a little research I think the proper term might be Leucistic or possibly Hypomelanistic. We had somebody pounding our door down to get these from us (we could tell as tads the color was different), but recent events have placed him on our blacklist. So if anyone has any interesting trade offers...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Nice! Your group throws some sweet abberrations


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

I hope I'm not going too far off topic.

Doug, I keep getting myself confused by the sirensis locales. Is "green" the same as "green-legged"? I suppose I should take another look at the care sheet  Dendrobates.org doesn't list either of those locales but I know I have the green-legged.

Thanks for the clarification!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Theyre different. Greens are closer to highlands


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

They are different. Green legged Panguana morph. Understory Green Lamasi are from the Lower Ucayali region as I understand it. They *may* be the same frog as the European Contamana Lamasi.
The Understory Green Lamasi is larger than Panguana Lamasi.
And of course none of them are actually Lamasi anymore as they have been restructured as Sirensis.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Ok, so to add to the confusion... Is "green" then interchangeable with "lower Ucayali", and "green-legged" with "Panguana"? Especially if they come from the same locale.

Thanks for your help guys.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> We have a couple of neat Sirensis that just morphed out. I thought these were Amelanistic but after doing a little research I think the proper term might be Leucistic or possibly Hypomelanistic. We had somebody pounding our door down to get these from us (we could tell as tads the color was different), but recent events have placed him on our blacklist. So if anyone has any interesting trade offers...


Looks like it might be a HypoMel? Either way, fantastic colors and patterns!

Did you really have some one banging your door down?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

parkanz2 said:


> Ok, so to add to the confusion... Is "green" then interchangeable with "lower Ucayali", and "green-legged" with "Panguana"? Especially if they come from the same locale.
> 
> Thanks for your help guys.


To the best of my knowledge, Understory Green is the same frog as Lower Ucayali. I am unclear about the Panguana morphs. I believe there are several different color morphs of Panguana Lamasi which should not be interbred. Panguana (which has yellow stripes), Orange Lamasi, and Green Legged Lamasi are the three Panguana morphs I am familiar with. I had some of the yellow Panguana years ago but traded them off before they reached maturity. So my Understory greens are really the only Lamasi I have any real experience with.



fishr said:


> Looks like it might be a HypoMel? Either way, fantastic colors and patterns!
> 
> Did you really have some one banging your door down?


Not literally Jessica, but we had produced 2 other hypomels several months back and he has been anxious to get the next ones that came out. He called back a couple of times to ask about them and let me know he really wanted them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So here is a shot of "FreakyDeak", the oddball dark Sirensis, hanging out with his buddies. This lets you see a dark one, an Amel? one, and a normal one, all together.


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## Dillon Wascher (Jul 26, 2011)

Very cool pic!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Here are a few updated pictures of "FreakyDeak". What is the consensus on this guy? Just an aberrant pattern? 

What are the breeding logistics here? I understand you would not want to breed 2 Amels together, *but*, is it acceptable to breed an Amel, back to a normal Green Sirensis? For instance, a group consisting of ONE Amel, and three normals?

How about the dark guy? If he is just an aberrant pattern, could you theoretically set up a group of one "FreakyDeak", one Amel?, and a couple of normals?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Kind of pissed I didnt get to tear into Doug for mixing now so will do it from another angle.......that is not a leucistic nor amel its most likely a form of anerytheristic or axanthic if anything. Julio has a good guess as well but they look to have too much dark pigment to qualify for it in my opinion. But after years and years in the herp hobby to have seen something be called everything in the book you could probably call it anything and the name would stick. How about the colorado blizzard morph?.........
> 
> definitely a good idea to send it to a responsoble breeder as it wouldnt take a year or so so have the. Things morphing out left and right and we just dont need it. Keep in mind the froglets your group for sale produces will have a high percentage of throwing this morph if sold off as pairings.


Thanks Michael. Love the Colorado Blizzard morph. Haha! These guys are happening already Michael. The parents of my breeding group came straight from Understory. My group has already thrown a few of them, even though none of the parents, or the grandparents, show this trait. It seems to be genetic mutation that we are going to see some of. As I understand it, what is important is that they should be bred back to normal, dominant gene frogs.


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## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

They are a form of Albinism, (tyrosinase-positive) T+ Albino, also known as Xanthic Albino. Where black pigmentation is replaced by the purple/brown coloration. This is a Simple Recesive trait/gene.
Their eyes do appear dark, but if you look closely you will see that they do have red pupils.

They are a color morph similar to the 'Chocolate' Leucomelas, which is also a T+ albino.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Thats what I was betting on was axanthic but should the pupils not show red its got to be an anery. Hypos tend to have a reduced black yes but their colors are not reduced or grayed out like an anery. Too many years breeding boa, python and rattlesnake morphs ive seen it in darts as well. 

Doug its not the pairing of the actual frog that will be the boom of these showing up it will be with someone pairing off the het pffspring that will continue to throw them at a 25-50% rate. The best bet at liniting the mutation would be for the taker of the group to have a second lone to match offspring to for pairings....

i had someone pushing me for anything i morphed that wasnt the norm including a hypo vanzo which was rusty brown with yellow spots as well as a no dot vanzo......he was also going after albino retics and a certain albino lamasi a while back


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Thats what I was betting on was axanthic but should the pupils not show red its got to be an anery. Hypos tend to have a reduced black yes but their colors are not reduced or grayed out like an anery. Too many years breeding boa, python and rattlesnake morphs ive seen it in darts as well.
> 
> Doug its not the pairing of the actual frog that will be the boom of these showing up it will be with someone pairing off the het pffspring that will continue to throw them at a 25-50% rate. The best bet at liniting the mutation would be for the taker of the group to have a second lone to match offspring to for pairings....
> 
> i had someone pushing me for anything i morphed that wasnt the norm including a hypo vanzo which was rusty brown with yellow spots as well as a no dot vanzo......he was also going after albino retics and a certain albino lamasi a while back


Sounds like he wasn't a "team" player...or maybe he was!! I had a certain someone pounding down my door to try to get every freak one like this that he could get. I passed on doing business with the fine fellow.


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## Affordable Exotics (Mar 1, 2012)

I would say %100 ON THE LIGHTER ones that they are def hypomelanistics and not lucy or true amels. The darker one could just be an aberrant or low grade melanistic, I wouldnt jump to a conclusion though until you breed it to find out if it is recessive or co-dom or polygenic. That might help sort its morph as well. I produced a few new morphs or chameleons, dragons and fish so I know the headache of placing genetics. I agree with several of the comments that names are half the time misrepresentations of the morph and just hold it back as an oddball till its proven. Cool though. Are both the oddballs coming from the same group?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I didn't realize till I went back and re-read this thread that there were two abbarent froglets. So is it the same mutation that causes one to be darker and one lighter? Or is it two seperate unrelated events? Because one seems to be an abundance of melanin, the other a lack of it. Am I wrong?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Affordable Exotics said:


> I would say %100 ON THE LIGHTER ones that they are def hypomelanistics and not lucy or true amels. The darker one could just be an aberrant or low grade melanistic, I wouldnt jump to a conclusion though until you breed it to find out if it is recessive or co-dom or polygenic. That might help sort its morph as well. I produced a few new morphs or chameleons, dragons and fish so I know the headache of placing genetics. I agree with several of the comments that names are half the time misrepresentations of the morph and just hold it back as an oddball till its proven. Cool though. Are both the oddballs coming from the same group?


They are from the same group of 2.2. My breeding group's parents came straight from Understory.



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I didn't realize till I went back and re-read this thread that there were two abbarent froglets. So is it the same mutation that causes one to be darker and one lighter? Or is it two seperate unrelated events? Because one seems to be an abundance of melanin, the other a lack of it. Am I wrong?


I believe the darker one is simply an different pattern. It's not that it has any more black, but rather, an interruption in the stripes.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Are you keeping track of the #'s to see if it is a recessive trait?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogfarm said:


> Are you keeping track of the #'s to see if it is a recessive trait?


Not really, I'm afraid I know very little about genetics. I can tell you I've seen my group produce a lot of normal ones and only a few oddballs. I know that there are others that have seen the same thing from their Understory Green Sirensis.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/56331-amelinistic-green-lamasi.html
I have also heard about others.


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## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

poison beauties -definitely not axanthic, but xanthic yes. 


Some Hypo lines can look very similar to T+ albinos, but these are not hypos. They have red pupils. Judging how these are being produced/ popping up, this is suggesting to be a recesive trait. Definitly not, a Dom or Codom.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

InnoEcto said:


> poison beauties -definitely not axanthic, but xanthic yes.
> 
> 
> Some Hypo lines can look very similar to T+ albinos, but these are not hypos. They have red pupils. Judging how these are being produced/ popping up, this is suggesting to be a recesive trait. Definitly not, a Dom or Codom.


InnoEcto was over to see them in person the other day.


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## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

We also have an adult amel green sirensis to base this off of. We will try to get some good eye pictures and post them up so all can see.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a number of potential genetic things that may not be single gene controlled.. for example you could have an error in the migration of one of the pigment cells, or one of the types of pigment cells are replaced by another type of pigment cell.... Cool stuff. 

Ed


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I agree with Michael on this one. I was thinking more along the lines of Hydrodioxomelonistic (aka water melonistic) or Cantaloumelanistic, or even Honeydewmelanistic. Who knows though? I'm no geneticist. Maybe you should stick with a unique name. I'm thinking Sissycolorfeatheristic or even Supercalafragalistic (that would make it the Poppins Morph in layman's terms).



Pumilo said:


> Thanks Michael. Love the Colorado Blizzard morph. Haha! These guys are happening already Michael. The parents of my breeding group came straight from Understory. My group has already thrown a few of them, even though none of the parents, or the grandparents, show this trait. It seems to be genetic mutation that we are going to see some of. As I understand it, what is important is that they should be bred back to normal, dominant gene frogs.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

Any updates on this trait?? My group from Doug is giving me a 75/25 ratio what is the term for them we are settling on??

thanks Scott


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dartsanddragons said:


> Any updates on this trait?? My group from Doug is giving me a 75/25 ratio what is the term for them we are settling on??
> 
> thanks Scott





InnoEcto said:


> They are a form of Albinism, (tyrosinase-positive) T+ Albino, also known as Xanthic Albino. Where black pigmentation is replaced by the purple/brown coloration. This is a Simple Recesive trait/gene.
> Their eyes do appear dark, but if you look closely you will see that they do have red pupils.
> 
> They are a color morph similar to the 'Chocolate' Leucomelas, which is also a T+ albino.


Hey Scott, I know that Austin has quite a background in snake/lizard breeding and I bow to her knowledge. I am calling them Xanthic Albino, T+ Albino, or Caramel Albino. 3 different names for the same trait.
I have not seen anywhere near 25% from my group.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

Hi Doug
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but it's 75/25 the other way with most being Xanthic.

Scott


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## brad0608 (Jun 5, 2012)

those hypos are the coolest varient of serensis Iv seen. my buddy just morphed out a vanzo that has no spots just a swirl on its back.


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