# 10 Gallon Horizontal Questions



## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

I have a 10 gallon set up I've done with a few plants (pellonia, pilea, elephant ear and currently absent 2 small bromeliads) with a sort of central water area that still needs fixing up. It has Spyra (hygrolon) on all 3 sides I plan on attaching some moss to (not sure what kind). I went a bit... crazy... with the sphagnum. Considering taking out the left driftwood and just putting in a bunch of branches. But anyhow.

I'm not new to vivariums so much as very new to frogs and keeping plants alive in general (varanus+plants=dead plants). The light source is currently a POS but I plan on having a zoomed single bulb hood with an Alzo 27w bulb (~1300 lumen), perhaps elevated from the glass to prevent heating.

Looking for tips and in general which species to look at. I was expecting to get into thumbnails but will have to add more vertical space for them obviously, likely in the form of horizontal/diagonal vines. NARBC Arlington is a month away so hopefully the plants will take off by then and I'll be able to settle on a good species to get a pair of (local store has high end stuff that looks amazing but not sure my budget goes up to $300 a pair).

Pic included.


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Took out the driftwood to the left because it seemed to be causing issues with the fern. Also raised the light so it's not heated up.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

10 gallon is just too small for any sort of water feature. I would fill it in, it's just taking away needed space for the frogs. This viv is only suited for a pair of terrestrial frogs even then it's pushing it. I would stay away from larger frogs like terribilis. A pair of leucs or auratus should be fine or maybe some tincs. 
Elephant ear plants get HUGE you don't have enough space. I have a 3 ft tall gecko viv and the alocasia polly (form of elephant ear) I have in there is already half the size of the viv. 
What you have in there actually looks like a Syngonium or Nephthytis which is an arrow head plant and not an elephant ear plant and they still get really big. 
It's gonna take at least a month or more for the plants to settle in and won't give them time to "take off"

Here is is an example of an arrow plant that is big









You could get some dwarf Syngonium that stays rather small. You can find it in the pixie or fairy garden sections of some nurseries. 
Here is some pics from one off Josh's Frogs website
Syngonium podophyllum 'Mini Pixie' - Super Dwarf Butterfly Plant | Josh's Frogs

























That broms being in the substrate will rot. They grow on the sides of trees and such in the wild. I would mount them to the background. 
Put a toothpick on each side and make the cross forming an X will support them until they root then I would still leave the picks in place. It's best to break off the other sharp end and sand it down so the frogs don't get themselves or the eyes poked. I use toothpicks that only have 1 sharp end. They alse have some grip to them making it easier to get them into the foam and sometimes through gorrilla glue from applying spyra or hygrolon.


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Thanks for the reply. I was really hoping to have the water feature so that's a bit disappointing. I was thinking about adding vines horizontally/diagonally for them to give more surface area.

I understand the elephant ear is going to get too big but I can't really do much about it, it came with a package from Josh's frogs. The bromeliads I just had to place for right now since I haven't been able to put them in yet, they're not in the substrate just in the moss.

I've heard to stay away from the larger more terrestrial frogs since it's such little room. Would increasing surface area upwards with the vines help for some of the thumbnail frogs since most are arboreal?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

falconrygal said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was really hoping to have the water feature so that's a bit disappointing. I was thinking about adding vines horizontally/diagonally for them to give more surface area.
> 
> I understand the elephant ear is going to get too big but I can't really do much about it, it came with a package from Josh's frogs. The bromeliads I just had to place for right now since I haven't been able to put them in yet, they're not in the substrate just in the moss.
> 
> I've heard to stay away from the larger more terrestrial frogs since it's such little room. Would increasing surface area upwards with the vines help for some of the thumbnail frogs since most are arboreal?


You would have to put the tank on it's end and do a vert convert before getting thumbnails. 
Here is 2 vert converts I did. One had a glass door that folds down and the other has sliding glass doors. 









Here is the 2 vivs I use for my thumbnails. They have more height and are 18"x18"x24"









No matter what you do to that viv it won't be suited for thumbnails. Sorry to burst your bubble but it's just not feasible. They can go in there until you build another viv but that should really be done before you get the frogs if possible. 

Knowing the plant source tells me it is indeed a Syngonium which is an arrow head plant not an elephant ear plant 
Syngonium podophyllum 'Green Star' | Josh's Frogs

Yeah it's best not to put any darts in 10 gallons unless to use for grow outs. I have 2 tincs (Azureus) in one until I build them a new viv. I was working on a new viv until I realized it wasn't really suited for them or the plants they would trample all these mini orchids. They should be fine until I find my apartment and start on a new viv. I'm out of room right now. Zureus are known to be climbers so I guess you could say they have more space then some darts that tend to stick to the floor but most will climb if given space. That's why you want those broms on the background. 
Here is the 10g I have and there is 3 broms on the back and one has pupped out another so there is really 4 broms lol. They like to climb on the broms. 









One of the Azureus on the brom. Glass is dirty lol









Here is the viv back in May of 2015 and the viv has been up and going for a while even before this. 









That viv grew in at least a good year before I put frogs in it. So if it's done right it can work out for terrestrial frogs but not arboreals.


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

How long does it take for them to grow out? Unfortunately I went by what Josh's frogs said which basically told me 10 gallon was fine... I do however have some other glass cages that I could use but not for a few months at the least, I have a 12x12x18 with great foam background and some 18x18x24 that would need more work done. My next project will be a 6'x3'x4.5' monitor build which will allow me to free up atleast one of the other cages but obviously that's going to take a while. 
I know the plant is an elephant ear because they listed that on the package and it said it would have to be moved "within a year's time".


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

falconrygal said:


> How long does it take for them to grow out? Unfortunately I went by what Josh's frogs said which basically told me 10 gallon was fine... I do however have some other glass cages that I could use but not for a few months at the least, I have a 12x12x18 with great foam background and some 18x18x24 that would need more work done. My next project will be a 6'x3'x4.5' monitor build which will allow me to free up atleast one of the other cages but obviously that's going to take a while.
> I know the plant is an elephant ear because they listed that on the package and it said it would have to be moved "within a year's time".


I highly doubt they told you a horizontal 10 gallon is fine for thumbnails. You might have misunderstood if you look at this bit of info here 
"Ranitomeya imitator, also known as the mimic poison dart frog, comes in a variety of different morphs. A great beginner thumbnail, these frogs are fairly bold and easy to breed. 2-3 thumbnail dart frogs are perfect for a 12x12x18 or 10 gallon vivarium."

See how they listed the last dimension they are meaning a 10 gallon that is vertical. That didn't specify which I think they should but that's what they meant 

As far as how long things take to grow out it just depends on conditions and lighting. I made the dual fluorescent light on that 10 gallon myself and it had a daylight full spectrum bulb and a grow bulb on it so I got great results, for a while but some plants still struggled. The daylight bulb was in the blue spectrum and around 6500k and the grow bulb was more in the red spectrum. 
Right now there is a dual T5 6500k bulb fixture on there. 
About to switch to LED soon hopefully. 

They made and ID mistake it is for sure not elephants ear lol 
The only elephant ear plants they carry is Alocasia and that's not an Alocasia. 
That plant is Syngonium podophyllum 

















People make mistakes  I bet if you get the Josh's Frogs Plants account to take a look they will agree.

Ah well I just came across some sites that do call Syngonium elephant ear plants which is rather silly. Though there wasn't very many hits on it at all so it could be yet more mistakes. The only Elephant ear plants Josh's Frogs carries is Alocasia and they don't mention elephant ear in the description of any of their Syngonium podophyllum variations.

Look up elephant ear plants on google and the only thing you will see that's remotely close to yours is Caladium and you will see some that look like Syngonium but they are mislabeled. 

Oh well maybe they call them elephant ear plants instead of arrow head plants but I know it's a Syngonium. I'm pretty sure lol

Speaking of mistakes those Zoo Meds I have are 12"x12"x18" haha


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Well obviously I'm quite new to this so yes the whole 10 gallon bit did mislead me. It is strange how much like elephant ear it looks except for the color, so far it's doing well except for some issues with droplets which will hopefully be fixed with the light being elevated. Right now I have a full spectrum 5500 ALZO 27watt, 1300 lumens.

I suppose I can plant out the 12x12x18 later on, not sure what to do now as I already glued on the hygrolon. How long do various terrestrial sp take to grow out?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

falconrygal said:


> Well obviously I'm quite new to this so yes the whole 10 gallon bit did mislead me. It is strange how much like elephant ear it looks except for the color, so far it's doing well except for some issues with droplets which will hopefully be fixed with the light being elevated. Right now I have a full spectrum 5500 ALZO 27watt, 1300 lumens.
> 
> I suppose I can plant out the 12x12x18 later on, not sure what to do now as I already glued on the hygrolon. How long do various terrestrial sp take to grow out?


it's not too much about lumens as it is the color spectrum you want a light source that's at 6500k and most of those bulbs are marketed as daylight bulbs though most are around 5000k and it can be sometimes hard to find 6500k bulbs locally. 5500K just isn't gonna cut it. 
This is more along the lines of what you need https://www.amazon.com/Apollo-Horti...UTF8&qid=1472668140&sr=8-4&keywords=6500k+cfl

not sure what you mean by how long do they take to grow out do you mean terrestrial frogs?


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> it's not too much about lumens as it is the color spectrum you want a light source that's at 6500k and most of those bulbs are marketed as daylight bulbs though most are around 5000k and it can be sometimes hard to find 6500k bulbs locally. 5500K just isn't gonna cut it.


Not true; 5500K...even 5000k will grow plants just fine too.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

JPP said:


> Not true; 5500K...even 5000k will grow plants just fine too.


Indeed they will but broms might not color up as nice and plants won't thrive as good. The only tanks I have 5000k range bulbs in on my gecko tank and my whites tree frog tank. It is widely know that 6500k is the spectrum you wanna be in 
I've seen the difference between using 5000k bulbs and 6500k bulbs and the difference is pretty substantial in my experience. That's why I said they won't cut it.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Indeed they will but broms might not color up as nice and plants won't thrive as good. The only tanks I have 5000k range bulbs in on my gecko tank and my whites tree frog tank. It is widely know that 6500k is the spectrum you wanna be in
> I've seen the difference between using 5000k bulbs and 6500k bulbs and the difference is pretty substantial in my experience. That's why I said they won't cut it.


I'm not buying that personally, and I'm also talking from personal experience. I've not noticed any substantial differences using the 5000k - 6500k range. Its "widely known" that daylight falls within that kelvin range.
NEHERP - Vivarium Lighting 101 - Everything you need to know, to grow plants in a live vivarium
In fact, there are many sources that say 5,500K is the equivalent of mid-day sunlight, and 6,500K is more of an overcast day color temperature. Dozens of color temperature charts online support this. There are even threads at Plantedtank and such that show someone getting better PAR readings (the only thing that truly matters regarding plant growth) with some lower kelvin CFL bulbs, surprisingly. The Planted Tank Forum - View Single Post - PAR Data-Spiral Power Saver Bulbs, lighting question I guess there's a reason that Todd at LYR uses both 6500K and 4500K mixed color spectrum diodes in the Jungle Dawn led bulbs.  A former coworker of mine was growing Aglaonema, Spathiphyllum, and Chamaedorea elegans in a windowless office with only exposure to overhead 3000k bulbs.


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

So far one bromeliad did not do well, I was able to attack the other one to the background today. The other got brown leaves and just sort of fell apart. I won't be the first to say I'm not great with plants. The fern seems to have stopped dying but the dead leaves had what looked like fungus on them? Everything else seems to be doing fine, the larger "green star" one still is not appreciative of the water droplets but the bulb is 6" away. 

Still looking for ideas as far as what to put in it, dragon said grow outs would be fine but I don't know for how long or which species. I do have the 12x12x18 but at the moment I need to save money for some other projects.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Your lighting is fine. I've used anything from 5000-7000K on frog vivs and to grow "difficult" orchids, which have light demands much more significant than the majority of plants people use in vivs. As long as you aren't slapping 10,000K or actinic reef bulbs on a frog tank, it's really not going to make too much of a difference in terms of plant growth. 

To say that 24" of tank height is way more arboreal than 12" when we're talking about animals that live meters above ground is really silly. If you want to build a strictly arboreal tank, plan for something 5+ feet tall. A pair of thumbnails can thrive in a horizontal 10 gallon if all other demands are met, and if you're going to get a species that raises its own offspring and plan to let them raise in situ, I recommend a horizontal 10 over a vertical 10 or a 12x12x18. Horizontal tanks mean more ground area, which leads to a greater surface area for microfauna to colonize. What you lose in height will be greatly made up for in microfauna population and that is of greater importance overall.


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Thanks Spaff. What would be the biggest demands to cater to for most species and which should I consider as a beginner?


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm not sure if your question refers to all frogs in general or just thumbnails. I'll mainly speak on Ranitomeya below. 

People recommend the bigger species mainly of the genus Dendrobates because they are large, bold, and slower than the thumbnails. 

Ranitomeya are small and fast but, besides that, are not really any different in terms of basic care requirements. They will tend to hang in the upper portions of the tank, so I would plant it to create more of a canopy feel than open forest floor patches like you would for Dendrobates. They are significantly smaller, so they will eat fewer flies per feeding and can be slightly more shy. The key to increasing their boldness is to plant the tank fairly densely and provide them with retreats to dive into when they don't feel comfortable. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the more heavily planted a tank is, the more bold the frogs tend to be. If I were to design a 10 horizontal for a pair of thumbnails, I'd most definitely do a thin background (maybe a cork flat or tree fern panels), with Philodendron ("flat petiole" from Section Pteromischium, sp. Burle Marx Fantasy, hederaceum, etc.), large leafed Peperomias (like P. serpens), and maybe a few Marcgravia cuttings. I'd also plant a few bunch-growing plants (Calathea micans is a good one so is Peperomia caperata) on the sides of the tank. Add a couple branches running the length of the tank where you can add some accent epiphytes if you'd like, drop down a nice layer of leaf litter, maybe attach a few film canisters/drop some on the ground and go from there. I would forego broms in a tank that short. You'll just never get the scale right, and it will always look unnatural. 

The look that I'm trying to achieve is one that is fairly covered on three sides of the tank (BG and two short sides) and some open areas in the middle foreground and on the wood structure. 

As far as species I'd recommend for those getting into thumbnails: imitators would be your best bet, followed by vanzolinii, variabilis, and possible amazonica. I'd stay away from sirensis, fantastica, and reticulata as a first frog.

Hope this helps!


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Thank you for this... I keep seeing a few but very repetitive people talk about how a horizontally oriented tank should not be used for arboreal frogs and its completely ridiculous to me. As if any of these tanks we use are going to somehow replace a 50ft tree and up by being oriented vertically as opposed to horizontally 

I'm relatively new to keeping frogs and I certainly didn't know for sure so I've never argued the point; its nice to see this confirmation. 

Its captivity, don't lie to yourself and think you can provide the exact conditions your animals are used to in the wild. Unfortunately some sacrifices have to be made to keep these and any animals. 



Spaff said:


> Your lighting is fine. I've used anything from 5000-7000K on frog vivs and to grow "difficult" orchids, which have light demands much more significant than the majority of plants people use in vivs. As long as you aren't slapping 10,000K or actinic reef bulbs on a frog tank, it's really not going to make too much of a difference in terms of plant growth.
> 
> To say that 24" of tank height is way more arboreal than 12" when we're talking about animals that live meters above ground is really silly. If you want to build a strictly arboreal tank, plan for something 5+ feet tall. A pair of thumbnails can thrive in a horizontal 10 gallon if all other demands are met, and if you're going to get a species that raises its own offspring and plan to let them raise in situ, I recommend a horizontal 10 over a vertical 10 or a 12x12x18. Horizontal tanks mean more ground area, which leads to a greater surface area for microfauna to colonize. What you lose in height will be greatly made up for in microfauna population and that is of greater importance overall.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Here's my ten gallon horizontal, it's been planted for four or five months. The key is picking plants that stay very small. My broms get to a max of about 3"


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Oh wow that looks great! I figured josh's frogs would do that but it appears they didn't decide to do so... Do you have a picture of the top canopy and if it has any ventilation? My 27 watt is about 6" above the tank but it's still showing a lot of condensation...


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

JPP said:


> I'm not buying that personally, and I'm also talking from personal experience. I've not noticed any substantial differences using the 5000k - 6500k range. Its "widely known" that daylight falls within that kelvin range.
> NEHERP - Vivarium Lighting 101 - Everything you need to know, to grow plants in a live vivarium
> In fact, there are many sources that say 5,500K is the equivalent of mid-day sunlight, and 6,500K is more of an overcast day color temperature. Dozens of color temperature charts online support this. There are even threads at Plantedtank and such that show someone getting better PAR readings (the only thing that truly matters regarding plant growth) with some lower kelvin CFL bulbs, surprisingly. The Planted Tank Forum - View Single Post - PAR Data-Spiral Power Saver Bulbs, lighting question I guess there's a reason that Todd at LYR uses both 6500K and 4500K mixed color spectrum diodes in the Jungle Dawn led bulbs.  A former coworker of mine was growing Aglaonema, Spathiphyllum, and Chamaedorea elegans in a windowless office with only exposure to overhead 3000k bulbs.


Experiences differ. I have had way better plant growth and coloration of bromeliads from 6500k vs 5000k-5500k.
Also in low light some plants tend to get all scraggly growing long and thin instead of actually bushing out like they normally would.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

bleh I can't believe a moderator would say it's ok to use or entertain using a horizontal 10 gallon for ranitomeya


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Beginning to see what appears to be fungus :/ Anyone know how to get rid of it? I put springtails in but it's in places I don't think they can reach.


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## falconrygal (Aug 26, 2016)

Here it is now, it had a month to grow so only the creeping charlie did a lot, put the driftwood back in and added a cholla wood, plastic coconut house, and a pilea. Kept the pond by adding more around it to make it more busy, the larger one really seems to like going down in there and in the cholla. Will be building out my 12x12x18s next.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

so much space being wasted with that background I would add some moss, vines or some sort of epiphytes. From what I've been told cholla wood doesn't last very long in high humidity.


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## viper69 (Dec 28, 2013)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> . From what I've been told cholla wood doesn't last very long in high humidity.


In my experience this is true.


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