# Mixing species and animals in big displays



## Guest (May 29, 2004)

Hello,

I am currently setting up a 135gal, right now i'm waiting on my moss and currently stocking with plants. The tank itself is 36'X24'X36', so i'm going to have a full aborial area aswell. I was wondering if anyone has mixed imitators with the bigger dartfrogs, I'm hoping that the aboreal frogs will be high enouph and away from the teresrial frogs? I was also thinking of putting a pair of the smaller day geckos in with them? what do you think? The only problem I have with putting the smaller imitators or frogs species in, is going to be...getting them out if I ever have to move the tank. Other than that... its what may eat what? I dont have plans to breed as of now


Thanks


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Mixing species is almost always generally a bad idea. Hybrids, stress, different care requirements, etc. all play a role in this. Some of the expert keepers will do the dendrobate, phyllobate, epidobate, etc. The species of Phelsuma need a hot basknig spot and some bamboo from what I understand. This would dry out the terrarium to where to frogs would be uncomfortable. I've also heard of Phelsuma eating mantella species, and they are larger than thumbnails, but these must have been the P. grandis. P. klemmeri is a smaller species, but nto as common. I wouldn't attempt to mix any species in a tank, even the size of yours. These creatures would never see each other in the wild and it's uneeded stress upon these awesome herps. Just my thoughts


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I agree in some respects with Derek, but you can mix... especially if you aren't breeding (and do not allow it, destroying eggs & hybrid offspring if needed). I also would steer away from the day geckos, but I don't know a whole lot about them. I could see the larger ones grabing a thumbnail dart without hesitation, but not too sure about the smaller ones. Also, I thought that they need a basking area like Derek said... but maybe someone with experience with these will speak up. As for mixing dart frog species, mixing Dendrobates, Phyllobates, and Epidobates is the easiest way to not even worry about hybrids. D. imitator is a very aboreal frog (mine almost never go on the ground) so I think that would be an ok fog to mix with a more terrestrial that won't take larger food items (like terribilis). I would think you could mix imitators with azureus, tincs, auratus, galacts, leucs, and then of course you could mix with some form of the smaller Epidobates. Of course I would also consider pumilio with auratus or vittatus... as I believe they coexist in nature (correct me if I am wrong), so that would be a good natural mix. Of course, I would only mix if you have experience with each individual species first. That way you will be able to plan a better tank for both species, which should lead knock out some of the problem asociated with mixing.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I have my two peacock day geckos and a flying gecko in my 37gallon(12Wx23Hx30"L) I was originally planning on putting my terribilis in there as well, but if any of the animals breed, the offspring would probably become lunch. So I keep them separate. As far as the gecko's needs, basking spot? Yes, Drying out? Not really. I have a 70W halide over the screened part of the top, towards the end of the tank the basking spot, which they hardly leave for more than a minute, averages about 90 degrees. On the other end, which is covered with glass the temps stay in the high 70's during the day. Humidity for the whole tank stays around 80%.
You're tank is much larger, and would allow even more temp and humidity gradients.


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## Guest (May 30, 2004)

Yes, 

If I do mix any geckos, they where going tobe the small specieas. Thanks for listing the ones that have been found to do well together. I do have smaller tnaks that I am setting up, and I was hoping to use them for species specific first , like the pimilo's, so I can learn more about them first before mixing.

Thanks Swann


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

In my opinion, a 37 gallon tank is too small to even consider mixing any species. The flying geckos are not native to madagascar as the phelsuma are. Their care requirements are different if you wish to keep them natural. Yes, I've heard the replies of "well, they need same temp and humidity" but there are other aspects of keeping the species. What are you using to measure your temperatures and humidity in your tanks, Dancing Frogs? Other issues include food size. If mixing a flying gecko which takes large crickets and say, D. auratus, you're going to have a problem. The crickets can be the same size as the auratus. From my experience with the flying geckos, they jump around quite a bit and need lots of room. I don't believe it's a good idea to mix any frogs, lizards, etc. I feel that they do much better with their own species. What is the reasons for mixing as well? I'm always cruious about this. Not enough space? Want more variety in tank? Not quite sure myself.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

how i check my tank? well i stick my big toe in the 37 for about a minute and if it comes out wet i guess it's about 80% humidity...and if my toe isn't purple from the cold that is a plus...JUST kidding :twisted: we use basic pet store digital and standard gauges.

well not saying it is right for all amphibians &/or lizards, but it really seems to be a happy set-up for our geckos being 1 is nocturnal and the other 2 are not. 
when the peacocks need time away they just climb behind the cork bark and chill. 
the flying gecko is small enough to eat the same sized food our peacocks do.
peacock day geckos turn a brownish color when stressed and ours are just brilliant green with envy. :lol: 

F/half


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*treefrogs*

Small treefrogs like H. leucophyllata and H. marmorata are good to mix with larger dart frogs. Even red eyes are good, but only with the larger species because of being prey. However, they will need crickets and you should have a moonlight bulb for night time if you want to see them good. Reed frogs might be considered, but most are wild caught. How about bumblebee toads? M. stelzheri? They are ground dwelling, and Seth Doty has captive bred species. They eat fruit flies and rice flour beetles, so that may be a possibility. 

Here's another suggestion. Buy a tank divider from the petstore (if you can find one for a 37 gal) and divide the tank. You could probably make one yourself too.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

No rain frog. I have read the same "information" as you have about H. marmorata. Please do not pass on information that is not correct. H. leucophylatta and marmorata should not be mixed together or with darts at all. Please stop where you are right now. Red-eyes? NO. Reeds? Give me a break, I'm hoping Scott will reply to this one as well. Bumble bee Toads? Ever wonder why they are bright colors? Same as fire bellies, toxic, not derived from their diet. Seth does sell CB babies, but this makes no differences. I keep an M. stelzneri and it is nothing like a dart frog. No moss, no bromeliads, etc. They are savanna dwellers of ARGENTINA. Same with reeds, some of them come from very warm areas, and in AFRICA. After the many posts of why not to mix species, I fell that this one is unecessary, as the information has been covered, but seemed to have been ignored? These suggestions of mixing species are simply idiotic.


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

You can try a leaf chameleon such as Brookesia or Rampholeon. They require similar care with darts. I wouldnt go for phelsuma.

M.N


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

BTW thumbnails and leaf chams occupy different niches; therefore increasing chances of success.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

If they occupy different niches, this would decrease the chance of success. Like saying fire-bellied toads and veiled chameleons occupy different niches, increasing chances of success? Anyways, Madagascar is much cooler than the native Cotsa Rica, Panama, etc. Brookesia is hard enough to find anyways, I doubt someone would throw them in with some darts if they got ahold of them.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*hiss*

Derek.

Ok, sorry. You don't have to put it that way. I did read the earlier posts. You don't have to get so rude and angry.  I know that Jhupp has kept a red eye with his dart frogs in his big tank. And then, why does Sean recommend H. marmorata with darts? Since you seem to know everything, you tell me?!? I don't understand why I get backlashed by you so much. I don't always mean to sound stupid. I read, a LOT of reading. But occasionally I am wrong, I guess.  

And if that is the way you talk all the time, and not intending to be rude, well, I hope others that may get similar replies don't take it that way either.

But I might as well not come back anymore, because all the information I possess is wrong and idiotic. And all my messages spam up the board when I'm trying my best like everyone else that makes suggestions and be friendly too. That's it. I don't like the way Kingsnake.com gets rude towards each other either. I'll come back when I have baby animals for sale, if nobody's gonna get pissy about what I'm selling and says that is all wrong too.


Good day sir.

Rain


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

I don't mean my posts to be rude, but sometimes they do come out that way. I am very one-sided on the mixing species subject and hold my side firmly. I realize that JHupp had a red-eye with some darts, but I believe he seperated them? Why does Sean Stewart advertise to mix H. marmorata with Dendrobatids? I don't know, maybe he hasn't done any research on them ? Anyone can mix something and tell a friend that it worked, but you don't know if the frogs are thriving, unstressed, etc. H. marmorata and leucophylatta still feed on crickets and unless your have some adult terribilis that are willing to take the crickets on, they will cause a problem, even with Terribilis, there is competition over the food sources. The darts are diurnal, so when they are asleep, the crickets for the H. marmorata are wondering around until they wake up, what's to stop them from checking out a dart? They can chew on larger frogs, a small dart is no different. I'm not going to comment on Sean, because I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers. These frogs are from different locales, therefore in my opinion, shouldn't even me considered mixed. Sure it's all "the jungle", but the "jungle" varies through out places and H. marmorata is an arboreal species, acustomed to being many feet above the ground, not even knowing what a poison dart frog is. Mixing species is just something pleasing to the eye, I've never heard of frogs breeding with their tank mates while mixed with others. I have heard of reed frogs and red-eyes, but this was in a museum I believe, in an enormous enclosure. On a personal note, I am not singeling you out, Rain Frog, your prescence/comments are valuable. I feel very strongly about this subject and get a little touchy at times. This board is open to all, by leaving it, you will lose connection and all over this. Not worth it. I am sorry if you took my post the wrong way.


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## jhupp (Feb 27, 2004)

No, the only thing I pulled out of my big tank were my bicolors because my female auratus got really aggresive towards them when she started breeding. The RETF is still in there. But you have to understand this is 135 gallon enclosure that houses only 7 frogs, with suitable habitat provided for both species. The RETF is also hand fed: re-heated frozen crickets. So, there is no issue there.

I had planned to let the G&Bs breed and rear young _in situ_, which would have meant I needed to take the RETF out. But I had some mechanical failures and wound up having to tear down and re-build the tank. So I had to remove all the tads, and with no freshly morphed young in the tank I have no need to remove the RETF.

Mixing is one of those things that people don't generally think through the way they should. There is more to it then food and climate. In ecological terms there are two key concepts to think about, (1) the Hutchinsonian or Multi-Dimessional Niche and (2) the ecological amplitude of each facet of that niche. If you can reconsile these between the species you want to mix, and develope some sort of neutralist relationship betwen them you should be ok. Good luck :wink:


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

Derek Benson said:


> If they occupy different niches, this would decrease the chance of success.


What makes you think that. If they occupy different niches, they play different roles in your habitat (ie- no competition). Therefore are less likely to encounter each other; especially in a 135. 

M.N


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

135 gallon tank is really not that large and any animal would encounter another within this area. Now a greenhouse, it is unlikely. No competition, but the frogs are form other areas of the world or even same area. For example canopy vs. forest floor, whole different world, we've all seen Discovery Channel.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2004)

Back on topic, normally I wouldn't consider mixing species, especially from different locales, because of the parasite thing. But in this case, at least the day geckos are from the same continent as the frogs. Day geckos are from rainy S America, aren't they?

There have been good arguments on both sides. I think that in this particular case, if one proceeds with caution, one might meet with success. If I were you, I'd make sure my frogs were big and fat before sticking them into the big terrarium though. In fact, it might help if you devise a way to cordon off a section of the tank for each species you plan to release into it. That way they have time to acclimate to their new surroundings, get the hang of finding food, and get used to each other before having to fend for themselves. Also, if you had them in separate sections, it would be easier to monitor their health levels and to pull them if they're not doing to well. 

With that said, I don't care who gets defensive for Sean. Mixing different species of frogs from extreme different locales is asking for trouble. Even mixing frogs from the same rainforest that are found in different levels of the canopy and wouldn't overlap with others could be risky...The same saga of disease spread, species jumps, etc. has been played out in several other animal groups, and I'd hate to see it happen to the dart frogs.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Phelsuma are from madagascar. I agree with your post.


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2004)

Ok. Well, I know there are lots of species, but I've never been much into geckos . If there's one from s america that's available in the pet trade, I'd stick with that. I think anyone who tries this may find a gecko who originally came from a dart frog locale a little more reluctant to eat a dart frog (being that the frogs are toxic and all). In some species, especially some reptile species, what to eat and what not to eat can be genetically implanted. I don't know if that's true of geckos, but it's something to consider. But then again, warning colors seem to be pretty universal. 

Good luck and update us when the tank is set up. I'm interested to see how everyone gets along.


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