# Why are hybrids bad? 'Oi vay the hybrids already'



## Guest (Jul 19, 2006)

Not very new to darts, but new to breeding them, and i have seen some posts and pics of hybrids. So far, many have said that they are bad. I saw a pic of one very cool one, but people were "dissapointed" to hear that it was a hybrid. Whats wrong w/ them?


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Most people want to keep the bloodlines to the "species" of dart frogs pure due to the fact that wild populations are dealing with massive habitat loss and the expansion of chythrid (sp?). Also, there is some worry that some seller won't tell someone they are buying a hybrid and pass it off as a new morph. 

I've noticed on here that some people react the same way to albino dart frogs believing they are created by hybridilizaton. Don't worry, they are not.

Note: I used species like that because the morphs are variations of one species not something entirely different. A Cobalt tinctorius and a matecho tinctorius are still the same species, it's just not recommend to let them breed together. It's kind of like that purebred dog stuff with the kennel clubs.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

here's a good way to put it....

just like lions and tigers darts are endangered. 

so if both lions and tigers go extinct in the wild. 

and captive bred animals are cross bred and all we have left in captivity are ligers.

we now have no tigers or lions left.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

audioandroid said:


> here's a good way to put it....
> 
> just like lions and tigers darts are endangered.
> 
> ...


Ligers aren't all bad... They have extra magical powers. Napoleon told me so..


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

I suggest trying the Search button at the top of each page here.

First select search then type "hybrid" in the search field next spend hours reading all the long winded 4 page long threads on hybrids.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

audioandroid said:


> here's a good way to put it....
> 
> just like lions and tigers darts are endangered.
> 
> ...


good point
but like in the dart frog community, thier would be those still interested in keeping lions and tigers and would thus be breeding them still.

i also don't see what the big deal is.
from what i have learned, we as hobbiests don't rerelease our frogs into the wild anyway over threat of introducing new parasites etc. so if they did go extinct in the wild, they'd still be around in captivity, like lions and tigers would still be bred by zoos to keep them around.

a way around the whole misinformation thing is already around, thiers that dart frog registry site thats being developed, and thisers sites like this and honest, respected breeders. as long as the people who want to keep the lines pure will still sell pure bred frogs. people who only want pure bred frogs could onjly buy from people that only sell pure bred frogs.

as the dart frog hobbist community grows, hybrids will happen. not everybody who owns a dart frog will be a member of this site, nor will they care about keeping lines pure, some will only care about having pretty frogs, others will care about making money because new frogs = higher prices due to uniqueness and some people need to make more money to pay bills etc (looking threw the 'whats your job' thread, it seems alot of the people here have enough money to burn and thus look at negativly at the money making side not caring about us poorer folk with dead end jobs and high bills). eventually the dart community WILL get as wide spread as the gecko and python community. thiers no stopping it.


as for searching threw the posts to find the long winded posts about hybrids,
for the most part, they can be summed up into:
"keep the lines pure because we don't want the hobby ending up like the gecko and python hobby" and "its unethical" (with long speeches as to why the person believes so)



p.s. don't take this post offensively, i'm just stating what i've seen and stating things that will obviously happen due to selfishness of people


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

One other thing to consider, is that fertility can be an issue, even between morphs. Morphs are kept separate because deep down we do not know where to draw the species line. If someone crosses two morphs and doesn’t pass on the breeding information, the frogs may be misidentified later on, and unintentionally bred to a true morph. If you think that this is all to hypothetical, consider how often we see posts requesting the ID of a frog. One person says, "it looks like a sip". “No”, another responds, “it’s a New River”. Then a third chimes in, “ I think it is just a young azureus”. The person asking is left to decide what to do, and if he breeds the frog in question to an azureus, there may be fertility issues down the line. No, fertility issues do not always show up in the next generation. Sometimes it takes a few generations before problems start. The last thing we all need is problems with a species that can not be reimported 

Just my thoughts.


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## Vicky Rut (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm brand new to the hobby and I personally feel very 
strongly about keeping things safe, though it may not be on my 
plan to breed darts I know for sure that if I will I wouldn't mix species or morphs
for the life of me (and I have a dead end job and a very low income)

Some things just don't have a pricetag 
If more people start thinking/feeling it is okay to mix more people
will mix, each induvidual that breeds darts counts. Thats why it is
important to keep educating people about it.

Note on the ligers, they are unfertile, can not breed at all, the same goes
for hybrid darts as Grassypeak mentioned, it just happens a few generations later 
Then what? No lions, no tigers and no Ligers?

I also recomend reading the search on hybrid, I did, had lots of fun :mrgreen:
just my 2 cents


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Grassypeak said:


> Sometimes it takes a few generations before problems start. The last thing we all need is problems with a species that can not be reimported
> 
> Just my thoughts.


Hybrid breakdown. Has this been documented in darts?


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Grassypeak said:


> Sometimes it takes a few generations before problems start. The last thing we all need is problems with a species that can not be reimported
> 
> Just my thoughts.


Hybrid breakdown. Has this been documented in darts? 

Personally, I think most of the hobby is interested in the animals as having originated in some rainforest somewhere with fascinating color and behavior and that they are still very much wild animals. We should do are best to keep it that way, for our own enjoyment if anything else.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

something doesen't have to be an origional for one to enjoy it.
whats enjoyed is all a matter of preference. like the origional poster mentions, he saw a beutiful frog that everybody liked....until they learned it was a hybrid. thats like saying you love the meal your eating until you find out it was made out of liver, rhubarb, artichockes, and pigs feet. if you like it, then it shoulden't matter where it came from (or whats in it with the food example)




Grassypeak said:


> No, fertility issues do not always show up in the next generation. Sometimes it takes a few generations before problems start. The last thing we all need is problems with a species that can not be reimported


i gotta wonder if that will happen anyway due to inbreeding.

a person gets two or three frogs and breed them, sell the offspring, a person buys 2 or 3 offspring, breeds them, etc, repeat over and over. after many inbreedings, mutations and infertility will start to appear.

could also explain issues in the Poor Quality Frogs topic.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

If you check many dart frog species on the IUCN Red list, many of them are actually not endangered, their habitat is. 

Please check this site, you maybe suprised.http://www.iucnredlist.org/


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Basically i think it boils down to wanting to avoid possible confusion and/or muddying of the bloodline waters.

In a perfect world if someone had hybrid, or was breeding hybrids...everyone that came into possesion of it later or of its offspring would know exactly what they have, and label it as such, and any persons down the line would do the same, but thats kinda unrealistic. 

A hybrid might look close enought to one of the original species to be mistaken for them and then bred with another of that species unknowingly...then so on, and so on...and you have a crap load of frogs out there that arent what they are supposed to be. Or they may be sold as new morphs that dont actually exist in nature. unfortunetly not everyone is ethical and/or knowledgable and/or responsible.

Basicaly in theory it should be fine for someone to create a hybrid...but in fact each one is a pandoras box and not all of them will have their lids sealed tight forever.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2006)

wow, didnt think so many people would reply! I can now see 2 sides of the coin. Considering I want to be part of the solution not the problem (yes i got that from south park), ill definetly breed same species.  But in all seriousness, i now see why people feel so strongly. Though i still feel tempted to mix a tinc and leuc (just an example), i most definetly wouldnt try it. Thanx for all the replies and for giving me a new outlook on darts-

-Fitzy

Quick question, what is the difference between hybrids and morphs, is a morph just a morph out from the same 2 frogs breeding, kind of like a mutation, and a hybrid 2 different species? Looked it up on line and couldnt find much, i just wanted to make sure. Thanx again


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

A morph is a variation on a single species. Like all the different tincs there are out there.

With dart frogs, hybrids are crosses between morphs or actual species. Basically, anything under the genus dendrobates can breed with each other.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

zaroba said:


> audioandroid said:
> 
> 
> > here's a good way to put it....
> ...


don't leave it up to the zoos. just because we are hobbyists doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the same standards a zoo would. honestly i think thats a good point for any hobbyist in any reptile genre...

WWZD "what would a zoo do?"

if we could get all reptile hobbyists to follow this we'd be on the right track. 

i think i'll make bracelets "WWZD" and pass them out at reptile shows. See how many ball python breeders would wear them! :lol:


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2006)

lol, i get my darts form the san diego zoo, to be honest, the frogs that i have seen as well as set ups arent much of an upgrade (mostly the vivs, as the frogs are the same) especially considering the sickening amount of money that zoo, among all zoos, have.


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## Danyal (Apr 15, 2006)

<See how many ball python breeders would wear them!>
what's wrong w/ ball python breeders?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

allrighty then,
all hybrids do not produce infertile offspring. a morph cross is just that, a morph cross, not a hybrid. i doubt anyone has followed it a couple generations to say they BECOME sterile, it could be husbandry issues or something else, too many variables. there is such a thing as hybrid vigor. this is when a cross between 2 different species picks up the disease resistance of both species. 
there are naturally occuring hybrids of milksnakes and also of jefferson and blue spot salamanders naturally. they are called intergrades. it occurs where habitats overlap of similar species and you get a mottling of both types. w/ the salamanders it`s between a male blue spot and female jefferson crossing in the wild.
as for what would a zoo do: a zoo was who crossed 2 tinctorius morphs to create, what was thought to be a new tinctorius morph. a zoo let the last captive population of great basin pygmy rabbits die down to 2 female offspring and are now crossing a male idaho pygmy rabbitt to the females to produce a hybrid morph to rerelease into the great basin. a zoo would turn me down on donating frogs and habitats for the buffalo area to see, free of charge, when they almost shut down last year.
With all my experience i wasnt able to get a volunteer position at the local zoo. all i see is beurocracy and elitism in my local zoo. i sold them 10 mints about 6 years ago and gave them import papers and they still havent displayed them. they were interested in red galacts and i told them i`d donate 10 and the setup and they wont even call me back on them. i`m sure there are better zoos out there but not around here.
as for hybrids being bad, in a way they would be in a way they wouldnt. you wouldnt be able to tell unless you personally did it and observed the results and qualified what you were looking to accomplish. if one morph shows resistance, for whatever reason, it`s possible to cross morph a(resistant to chytrid) to morph b(not resistant) and then back cross to morph b and develop a breeding program out of all the individuals resistant to chytrid. you could then get the animals w/ the most characteristics of morph b(minus not being resistant to chytrid) and repopulate the wild.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2006)

Ok, I'll bite. I don't know anything about reptiles (besides, "ooh! Pretty!"). 


This thing that happened with geckos and pythons...what happened??


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

basically leopard geckos are imported as leopard geckos and ball pythons are imported as ball pythons, although they come from all over the countries of origin. noone knows where they come from and noone cares. they breed a south pakistan lowland leopard gecko to a mountain range northern iran leopard and the same w/ ball pythons, even though they are gographically seperated and dont interbreed in the wild. not hybrids but morph crosses. same w/ crested geckos and a lot of other things. andean milks have been mislabeled as hondurans etc etc.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2006)

Thanks, aaron. I'd heard a reference to the gecko/python situation, and figured it was something similar, but I didn't really know about it. 

So, in the end, if I'm understanding you correctly: you have a huge mess and there's no telling what on earth your gecko (or whatever) is when it's all said and done, because no one's bothered with keeping species separate/true, preserving species that may be disappearing in the wild, or keeping records of the crosses that do happen, whether intentionally or un-. What ends up in my hands (as a customer, if I don't know any better at the time of purchase) is some random animal that doesn't naturally occur in nature; it's neat, but not a "real" animal...which may limit the amount of information I can find about it, or when I go online to look for help because it's acting strangely - I go to look up a caresheet and there isn't one, because there's really no such thing as a Fuschia Spotted Moonpie Gecko. 

Interesting. I've been confused about the whole hybrid thing, as a newbie, but was afraid to ask because of some of the strong feelings about it that I've observed here. I hadn't really ever thought about what it might mean in an extreme situation. Something to think about.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Aaron is correct with the leopard geckos. Pretty much all of the ones in the pet trade are hybrids as there were multiple species imported under the same common name and they were all hybridized. There have only been some hybridization events with ballpythons to date (crosses to Angolan pythons and Bloods) but there are pretty much no pure line Indian pythons left in the USA as almost all of the ones in the country have been outcrossed to burms to get around the interstate shipping regs. 

snip "there are naturally occuring hybrids of milksnakes and also of jefferson and blue spot salamanders naturally"endsnip

Unlike in general milksnakes, the salamander analogy here isn't totally correct as this is a complex of triploid hybrids that occured thousands of years ago. This is not a continuing integrade. The hybrids can also include genes from A. tigrinum and are in effect reproductive parasites on the natural populations as the hybrids are all females and require the sperm of one of the parenatal populations to stimulate the development of the egg. These hybrids would go extinct without the the parental stock. 

snip "as for what would a zoo do: a zoo was who crossed 2 tinctorius morphs to create, what was thought to be a new tinctorius morph."endsnip

This is not acceptable under AZA guidelines and is a big issue. If you have proof I suggest letting AZA know. In the hybridization events (only one or two) I have heard of, these involved Zoos that lacked a policy for euthanizing tadpoles and the eggs were not discarded. This meant the Zoo's policy required rearing the tadpoles and placing them where they could be displayed but not bred or holding them off exhibit. 

snip "a zoo let the last captive population of great basin pygmy rabbits die down to 2 female offspring and are now crossing a male idaho pygmy rabbitt to the females to produce a hybrid morph to rerelease into the great basin"endsnip

This is not the Zoo but [email protected] program. For detail see http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/diversty/soc/pygmy_rabbit/ 

I have some doubts as to the comment let die down to... I suspect that they were not allowed to aquire new stock and this species has not proven amenable to current captive breeding understanding. 

Some comments. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

no, i guess the morph cross thing couldve been heresay as i dont have any proof, only what ive heard. they arent suppposed to release things to hobbiests, as far as i know and wouldnt want to get anyone in trouble.
thanks for clearing up the pygmy rabbitt thing. i thought it was a zoo that was undertaking the breeding program, must`ve misread it.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Dendrobait,

I don’t know if hybrid breakdown has been documented in darts but it has been implicated in the loss of several captive species of killifish. It is thought that females of one species are sometimes imported with males of a different species. The first few generations are easy to produce, but fertility drops from there, and the fish is lost form the hobby. This my only be conjecture, but our access to some wild frog populations is no longer existent. I would hate to lose something like azureus or trrribilis due to unknown outcrossings with similar looking species or hybrids.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is often the argument about hybrid vigor etc well here is an example in closely related species of anuran that goes the other way. 
http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PHTM/ ... -2004c.pdf

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have heard of hybrid vigor, but I have also heard that there are many consequences as well. At least for the big cat crosses, they are prone to cancer and other health problems....despite they grow much larger than their parents.

One problem with hybrids that is overlooked is behavior. A cross with a tinctorius and an auratus could produce some difficulties if you are keeping multiple frogs together. This can make things unpredictable as some frogs may inherit more shy, submissive behavior, while some may inherit more aggressive, prone to fighting like a tinc which could cause all sorts of problems in a tank.

I am not an advocate of albino frogs at all. In fact, I'd rather see cross morphs before I saw that. Do I care if we cross morphs? I wouldn't care that much (in fact, some morphs like cobalts are questionable), but like people have mentioned, everything "natural" will turn into a muddy battle for "the ultimate designer frog" which we can never use to replace the wild stock...if we ever found a way to reintroduce them without any threat of spreading disease as well. 

If we ever found a way to "keep it simple," record, document the morph cross, and wouldn't get too carried away, and it wouldn't replace the wild types in captivity, I don't have a problem. This is the way the carnivorous plant hobby works, a lot of species/morph focus but there are still crosses.

But....why is there even a need to "cross" morphs? There are new tincs morphs discovered all the time. Why is there incentative? I don't know anybody that has "every" tinc or pumilio morph. So why waste your time crossing when you have wild frog morphs that are disappearing along with the forest?


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

audioandroid said:


> zaroba said:
> 
> 
> > audioandroid said:
> ...


the example was about lions and tigers going extinct, thus i mentioned that zoos would be breeding them still to keep them from going extinct. but, if you wanna breed lions or tigers in your backyard instead of letting zoos do it and then get them ready for release in the wild, go right ahead 

just watch out for thier calws and teeth.


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## audioandroid (Mar 13, 2005)

zaroba said:


> the example was about lions and tigers going extinct, thus i mentioned that zoos would be breeding them still to keep them from going extinct. but, if you wanna breed lions or tigers in your backyard instead of letting zoos do it and then get them ready for release in the wild, go right ahead
> 
> just watch out for thier calws and teeth.


funny you say that because thats what i do for a living. i work for a company that works with exotics. Mainly large cats. we do promotional work, educational shows, and conservation. we breed and sell animals to zoos. 

you'd be surprised how many zoos do not breed their own animals. some will even have spayed or neutered animals. 

point is we shouldn't think its ok to do what ever because a zoo will always have these animals around for us. there has been many animals that have left this earth that spent their last years in a zoo. there just wasn't enough proper breeding programs around for two or three zoos to save the species. we should all try to keep things natural. if we simply try to follow nature we won't be sorry further down the road.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "funny you say that because thats what i do for a living. i work for a company that works with exotics. Mainly large cats. we do promotional work, educational shows, and conservation. we breed and sell animals to zoos. "endsnip 

Do you know how many are AZA zoos? 


snip "you'd be surprised how many zoos do not breed their own animals. some will even have spayed or neutered animals. "endsnip 

This is done in AZA zoos to control the population levels so that the animals will not overpopulate the available holding space as well as due to medical issues. This is also why AZA Zoos have studbooks and population managment plans so they can maintain maximal genetic diversity in the limited amount of available space. All because an animal has been spayed or neutered doesn't mean that a responsible Zoo should get rid of it. 

snip "point is we shouldn't think its ok to do what ever because a zoo will always have these animals around for us. there has been many animals that have left this earth that spent their last years in a zoo. "endsnip

Often this was due to insufficient knowledge about an animal and its husbandry or the results of inbreeding due to insufficient founder stock aquired when it was necessary but the premise here is correct. The massive numbers of species being lost at this time particuarly when combined with the reduced support by local and state budgets for Zoos and other institutions to even begin with the issues means that Zoos have to band together to concentrate on a more limited number of species. Species will be lost simply because there isn't money/space to deal with the issue. 

snip "there just wasn't enough proper breeding programs around for two or three zoos to save the species. we should all try to keep things natural. if we simply try to follow nature we won't be sorry further down the road."endsnip

We should go a little further beyond keeping it natural. Each time a population of frogs (for one example) goes through a popularity cycle, genetic variation is lost. This will doom the species in captivity in the long run as inbreeding can become more and more of an issue. If each person here picked one or two "common" species and looked to keep them long term regardless of popularity then a lot of these animals wouldn't be at risk of being lost to the hobby or the world at large. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If i sell 1000 yellowbacks from the same pair and they all make it to breeders will there be genetic diversity from the sheer # of individuals? i know they would all be siblings and quite closely related but wouldnt there be a genetic drift created and thru crossbreeding them back after 2-3 generations of linebreeding you would have a genically, more diverse population. you would have relatively different lines, i guess you would still end up w/ the same pool. 
I remember learning that there are energy stores and sinks in any population where one or 2 pairs produce most of the next generation. The fact that they are genetically superior to other individuals or they have the best "spot"(low predation and hi food supply) and their offspring survive while most of the others are food for other animals. 
I never had a full genetics course. Just what i picked up from env bio classes. if i remember correct inbreeding is less of a problem as you go down the chain(mammals,reptiles,insects etc.) depending upon breeder stock and whether they have any inherent genetic problems.
I`ve taken dwarfs to f7+ w/out any apparent breeding problems. I did not match longevity and it wasnt under lab conditions but prolificity seemed the same and i didnt have a rise in spindly leg(actually a decrease as my breeder stock was store raised) or other deformities or problems w/ tads etc.
Besides, if you can keep a pair alive for 14 years of breeding or more and you can get to 7th gen or more w/out problems we`ve got 100 years or more of stock per pair.


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> If i sell 1000 yellowbacks from the same pair and they all make it to breeders will there be genetic diversity from the sheer # of individuals?


No. When we speak of genetic diversity, we usually refer to the _effective_ population size, rather than the actual population size.



> i know they would all be siblings and quite closely related but wouldnt there be a genetic drift created and thru crossbreeding them back after 2-3 generations of linebreeding you would have a genically, more diverse population. you would have relatively different lines, i guess you would still end up w/ the same pool.


Yes, you would have basically the same pool. The thing is that drift works against diversity. You'll have many traits drift out of the population so your end pool should end up worse than your initial actually.



> I`ve taken dwarfs to f7+ w/out any apparent breeding problems.


I think our problem as a hobby is the use of the word "apparent problems." Has anybody tried comparing an inbred vs. a w.c. auratus in a tank competing for a mate? We have, and the w.c. males were much more successful at mating and outcompeting the 5+gen inbred males. While we did not do paternity testing and it is possible that the inbred males snuck in and fertilized a few eggs, it is somewhat unlikely. Our problem is that we don't understand all the selective pressures that these animals face in the wild and are not able to replicate them and thus, are unable to measure problems associated with severe inbreeding.

Great thread, by the way. A lot of useful information has been posted here.

~B


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I think our problem as a hobby is the use of the word "apparent problems." Has anybody tried comparing an inbred vs. a w.c. auratus in a tank competing for a mate? We have, and the w.c. males were much more successful at mating and outcompeting the 5+gen inbred males. While we did not do paternity testing and it is possible that the inbred males snuck in and fertilized a few eggs, it is somewhat unlikely. Our problem is that we don't understand all the selective pressures that these animals face in the wild and are not able to replicate them and thus, are unable to measure problems associated with severe inbreeding."endsnip

This may not be due to inbreeding but due to a lack of pressure to maintain the behaviors in the population as we are the ones performing the mate selection (by typically only providing one mate choice). In at least one captive bird population (Bengalese Finchs), song is widly variable as compared to the wild population because this is no longer a factor in mate selection. Because there isn't any pressure to maintin the correct behaviors the can drift and change. For example in your study, the females may have still have the genetic wiring for optimal mate selection but the multigenerational bred males may have some variations that make them less fit when compared to the wild males but suitiable when they are the only choice available. 

Ed


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Ed,
You are absolutely correct.
I didn't intend to imply that it was inbreeding that reduced territory maintenance. What I meant, was what you said, that our artificial setup may be putting selective pressure on not displaying parental care behaviors (or not putting pressure on maintaining them as you said). Removing eggs once they are laid (or 48 hours after as a lot of hobbyists do) prevents the male (or female) from doing their parental care thing! 
Thanks for clarifying my post. I posted so quickly that I didn't have time to re-read it!
~B


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Ben,

The loss of natural behaviors has been one of my concerns for a number of years now... 

Ed


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

A very justified concern! I think that the hobby in general takes for granted the power of artificial selection on behaviours... Not allowing parents to raise offspring, in my opinion, is very dangerous for the species. Even with proper genetic management, drift will certainly affect these behaviours since our population size is so small 
Perhaps you could provide an AZA link for a standard zoo protocol for responsible genetic management? I think that would help out a lot of us...
~B


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

for natural tad rearing what species or morphs use what? i know that azureus use bean pods and are always found singly(well not bean pods but something similar to a half coconut). at least i think that is what jack cover said a few iads back. do tincs, auratus and leucs use puddles and tree holes and such? is it just thumbs and pumilio that use broms?


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> do tincs, auratus and leucs use puddles and tree holes and such? is it just thumbs and pumilio that use broms?


Can't really speak for the others, but auratus use just about anything they can find. Typically not small broms like neoregillia compacta, they use big stuff (i.e. Vriesea imperialis...way too big for a viv    ).
They also use stuff like:
coconut shells that have split, beer bottles, paint cans, soup cans, holes in rocks that hold water, etc., etc.
Basically, anything that holds 200ml (plus or minus) of water or more...
Sorry I can't be of mroe help...
~B


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

not a problem. i`m setting up tanks for natural rearing and was wondering who specifically put 1 tad per water container and who did more of the communal thing. i`m going w/ the bigger frogs dropping tads in community puddles and the smaller, less productive, using individual containers. It seems a citronella would have problems getting a tad into a brom unless it was one huge brom like those ones that look like a century plant. 
i cant wait to get the chance to see natural habitat of some frogs that ive bred. it`ll be neat to see just how much i was off base for some of these guys, if i ever get a chance to get there.
i`ll start a new thread.


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## corbsclinton (Dec 4, 2005)

I know this is an old post but I thought it was an interesting post. The thing I wanted to add was the statement about the F5 males versus the WC's being less successful fertilizing the eggs. I'n my mind this makes complete sense and think it has nothing to do with the inbreeding. this is why:

Another example in nature that I've had experience with is whitetail deer. The dominant buck gets the doe nearly always. He is usually older and has a bigger set of horns. Its been my experience that OLDER usually wins when they are in rut, even if the horns genetics favor the younger buck. 

If I go to a bar and see some younger chicks being hit on by some "inexperienced" fellows and later I come over and make a more sufisticated (forgive the spelling) approach to the "young bucks", I think for the most part I have the advantage.

The variables out there to explain the F5's not "getting any" are too many to count but I think age and dominance (maybe due to age) might be as relative and possibly more so than the fact those guys parents and g-parents had been hooking up with their sisters for a long time. :lol:


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## Swanwillow (Feb 27, 2007)

corbsclinton said:


> Another example in nature that I've had experience with is whitetail deer. The dominant buck gets the doe nearly always. He is usually older and has a bigger set of horns. Its been my experience that OLDER usually wins when they are in rut, even if the horns genetics favor the younger buck.


actually, bigger antlers are a bred trait, not a older trait... this comes from growing up on a deer farm. Ya breed the biggest antlers, and voila-babies that are 2 that have 10 points.

my only gripe, since I'm doing research, etc. is that people consider morphs to be species. I have a quote from another board:
_"the last note is an IMPORTANT one! the term 'salvias' is a bit of a catch all term. it is not a definite morph....or rather it is, but many other morphs are also called 'salvias'. therefore, it is very important that you get the frogs from one person, and not mix 'salvias' from different collections as it may well turn out that they are not the same species. a mixed tank of salvias from different breeders runs the risk of making hybrids and thus destroying the blood lines."_
as you can see, I like the tricolor/anthonyi complex


I think that having two of the same species... is ok. I mean, lets say aliens came down (hypothetically) and started breeding humans on their planet. Ok, now.. we're off to being extinct (overpopulation, pollution, lack of food, water... whathaveya-maybe we should hope) If they go by region collected AND color... I will never breed with anyone outside my area, right? and noone from outside my color. Doesn't leave a heck of alot... ANYWAY. They do that. I think within 4 generations, with our slow breeding, we'd more or less all be inbred, right? although there IS genetic diversity, we just aren't sharing it. I think, from my research, that is what we are doing.

Now I'll be getting a bunch of 'well, thats different' but its not. Saying to only buy from ONE breeder is not good, especially for different morphs. Morphs are not species. We are collecting by color. here we have LOTS of colors.. and if they just take unique colors, I sure as heck won't be on that boat, but people that are interracial will be. 


I'm curious
If we let the morphs decide who to breed with in a multiple morph (NOT BREED) enclosure, say, a HUGE one (a 10x10 foot room) would they stay with their own color, or mix n match? I think that is needed before we can say 'do not mix morphs' and 'only buy your morph from one person' cause I sure as heck want to buy one morph, but not JUST from one person.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Now I'll be getting a bunch of 'well, thats different' but its not. Saying to only buy from ONE breeder is not good, especially for different morphs. Morphs are not species. We are collecting by color. here we have LOTS of colors.. and if they just take unique colors, I sure as heck won't be on that boat, but people that are interracial will be. "endsnip


The problem is that as we learn more about the different frogs it is possible that the morphs are found to be different species. Some morphs have been shown to be all the same species (tincts for example) and it is recommended to not interbred them as there are reasons why the frogs evoloved that color pattern and should be encouraged to maintain it as once we lose it, it is gone for good. (as people identify what the frog is based on visual appearence).. Then there are those morphs that are potentially different species like you are seeing in the E. tricolor/anthonyi complex or the E. boulangeri complex. 
What people are recommending is that until it better known that a conservative approach be used to ensure that there isn't hybridization. 

There is often a lot of discussion about inbreeding depression by breeding closely related frogs but many amphibians appear to be fairly resistant to inbreeding depression. This may be due to how dispersal of the offspring occurs... If the offspring have a short dispersal distance then there is a greater chance of inbreeding occuring as a routine measure in the wild. Now this doesn't mean that you shouldn't be trying to maximize the genetic diversity in the population but utilizing other morphs that can be species or have a very restricted rate of gene flow in the population in the wild without any tracking and control is only going to cause issues with maintaining the desired population. 

There have been other discussions on the board that probably explain it better than I just have... 


Ed


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## Swanwillow (Feb 27, 2007)

yup. I'm reading them. BUT, as a biology student, its hard to grasp the concept of WANTING to not add diversity. 

I guess I'll be looking up more of the anthonyi issues, as that was the first time I heard THAT, but how would we know the difference, since there is no background other than whats already been taken


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "its hard to grasp the concept of WANTING to not add diversity"endsnip


The problem I see is that there has been insufficient work done at this time to determine if there is already insufficient genetic diversity in the population that would warrent any outcrossing (whether to another morph or a different species). We are just starting to get to the point where we can start to try and maintain the populations in captivity (look at what Treewalkers is trying to get going https://www.treewalkers.org). 
If the population you are working with is healthy then why would you automatically assume it requires an outcrossing even if it is going through a gentic bottleneck as long as all of the normal behaviors are present. Bottlenecks also occur in wild populations (check out cheetah genetics for example....) and do not require hybridization to maintain genetic diversity... 

The diversity comment gets thrown around a lot mainly to justify people's idea that this is always a good thing... If you have a population that has sufficient genetic representation to maintain a healthy population then the only need is to maintain the gentic diversity in the captive population and there is no need to be outcrossing to other species in the name of diversity....

(from an old biochem student and current ZooKeeper)

Ed


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## Swanwillow (Feb 27, 2007)

well, I may have found my source, from a reputable breeder (see reputable... I thought I was going to have to go down dark alleys to find anthonyi) 

soo, back to older/younger theories, captive bred..

In the wild, do female frogs mate for life? or do they hop from leaf to leaf, finding new mates?

if they hop around, maybe they got fed up with their males (heh) sitting on the couch eating chips, and decided to go for the new man in town.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "In the wild, do female frogs mate for life? or do they hop from leaf to leaf, finding new mates? "endsnip

There is belief that there is pair bonding in one species of dendrobatids (although the exact species escapes me at the moment) but this is not the case in most species. 
While this seems like a simple question, it isn't. Territories are not absolutes. In the wild terrtories all overlap with core territories being more strongly defended than outlaying areas but in general you have to look at the species of dendrobatid frog in question. In some species because the males care for the eggs and transport the tadpoles they are the limiting sex and the females compete for the males. So the females try to defend the males.... And you have males competing for territories and potentially displacing either the other male partially from a territory or totally. However we really can't duplicate this very well in captivity (and may not want to) as the males that are displaced cannot escape from the other male. This can lead to stress related issues, disrupted reproductions etc... 
Also if we are switching out males that appear to be struggling to some extent for those that do better in captivity we could very well be adapting the frogs for survivial in captivity... which could be causing them to lose survivial traits. (the one I mention the most is that by continually pulling eggs and artificially rearing them we could be selecting for frogs that no longer parent rear). 

Ed


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## triply (Nov 26, 2010)

I in no way have any intentions of going hybrid and am 100% new to the hobby however.

alot of the arguments seem to be that its unethical to cross breed between different variations (Species or "Races" for purposes of this post) people have also stated that certain geckos and pythons are from different geographical locations. 

if this is so unethical what makes my white American but from cross breeding with someone from Egypt or Africa. I in no way am telling anyone that this is no different its just an observation i had and wasn't quite sure if someone had an answer.

as far as i see it they are all dart frogs different species as they may be i don't see species of frogs being that much different from different races of humans. plus with dart frogs i mean they are mostly all from the same geographical location southern south America area.

like i said before once again and i only stress this cause i don't know they are just observations i have no intention of going hybrid or putting different species in the same tank i am just curious to know what peoples answers to these questions are. really more of a please inform me. i cant seem to find these answers in the forums.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

triply said:


> I in no way have any intentions of going hybrid and am 100% new to the hobby however.
> 
> alot of the arguments seem to be that its unethical to cross breed between different variations (Species or "Races" for purposes of this post) people have also stated that certain geckos and pythons are from different geographical locations.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are asking..as it is not clear at all or why you feel the need to compare speciation, incipient speciation and/or local population phenotyes to humans or why you felt the need to perform necromancy on an old thread...


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## triply (Nov 26, 2010)

The necromancy was due to lack of wanting to create yet another hybrid thread.

secondly i am just curious.

ive looked around and there is no answers to those questions specifically so i asked in hopes i would get a reasonable response.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Again,

What questions? As I noted above I can't tell what you are actually asking. You are asking for answers and I'm having a hard time deciding on even one question much less several questions in your first post. 

Ed


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## triply (Nov 26, 2010)

how are races of humans that much different from species of frog.

people use geographical location and geckos in arguments for examples of why cross breeding is bad. 

however how does this apply to darts that are all from the same geographical location.

if you look so poorly down upon hybridizing darts how does that differ from different races mating...African Americans and Caucasians, Asians and Mexicans, or any other cross breed between races.

and maybe you could break down whatever you were saying in your first reply. as im assuming it would clear up all these questions.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I think comparing hybridizing darts to interracial relationships shows a complete ignorance of genetics and biology in general. Hybridizing two species of dart frog like D. tinctorius and D. leucomelas would be the same as a human mating with another member of the genus _****_ (if any were alive today). Closely related but different species. And in the process you ruin whatever is special genetically by hybridizing the species.


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## triply (Nov 26, 2010)

Vermfly said:


> I think comparing hybridizing darts to interracial relationships shows a complete ignorance of genetics and biology in general. Hybridizing two species of dart frog like D. tinctorius and D. leucomelas would be the same as a human mating with another member of the genus _****_ (if any were alive today). Closely related but different species. And in the process you ruin whatever is special genetically by hybridizing the species.


im sorry where as i seem to find everyone that replies to these is a biological engineer i have never even taken 1 biology class i am only interested in the darts as a hobby 

and im only interested in answers because i'm curious by nature.

i didnt realize the difference. I was just asking. thanks for the replies.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Vermfly said:


> I think comparing hybridizing darts to interracial relationships shows a complete ignorance of genetics and biology in general. Hybridizing two species of dart frog like D. tinctorius and D. leucomelas would be the same as a human mating with another member of the genus _****_ (if any were alive today). Closely related but different species. And in the process you ruin whatever is special genetically by hybridizing the species.


But we did in the past. This is still a troll post, just fyi.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

audioandroid said:


> here's a good way to put it....
> 
> just like lions and tigers darts are endangered.
> 
> ...


I'd still be scared of a Liger! They are massive!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bussardnr said:


> But we did in the past. This is still a troll post, just fyi.


 
And or is very young.. I think most high schools teach basic bio in either 9th or 10th grade so that would put the age range very close to 13-14 which also corresponds to the grammer. 

Ed


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

ROFL

we had the exact discussion with a guy on a german dart frog chat channel yesterday.

he started arguing that keeping them away from each other was like the race politics of the 3rd reich.

after 30min of useless chatter we banned him


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## cornchild (Oct 15, 2010)

anyone have hybrid pics? all iv seen so far is the tinc/auratus hybrid and they werent too bad looking.. i am sorry but hybridizing is just so interesting


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

There are some very nice-looking Terribilis/Vitattus hybrids .

they look awesome but alas still a no-no.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

It's a no-no for a very good reason. It's a serious corruption of the natural pre-existing morphs which are beautiful already. Why tamper with what we already have? I for one am a purest and will not do business with known hybrid producers or even locale morph mixers. I'd like to see this hobby stay true to it's foundation. It sickens me when I see what's happened to the leopard gecko, bearded dragon, ball python, ad naseum hobbies. One of the things that attract me to this day to this particular hobby is the staunch commonly held beliefs that pure blood frogs are the way to go. Now are our populations inbred? Yes they absolutely are but I'll take inbred over tinctoauratus, luecomazureus any day.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Rain_Frog said:


> I have heard of hybrid vigor, but I have also heard that there are many consequences as well. At least for the big cat crosses, they are prone to cancer and other health problems....despite they grow much larger than their parents.
> 
> One problem with hybrids that is overlooked is behavior. A cross with a tinctorius and an auratus could produce some difficulties if you are keeping multiple frogs together. This can make things unpredictable as some frogs may inherit more shy, submissive behavior, while some may inherit more aggressive, prone to fighting like a tinc which could cause all sorts of problems in a tank.
> 
> ...


My chance to weigh in. First, Doug, I agree 100% With your statements in this thread. and may I add, sp. evolved particular traits, like color to increase their chances of survival in the wild. By hybriding I believe we don't inprove on nature, but we take away.
On the flipside of that coin, orchid growers have been hybriding for years.That don't still make it right.That's how come I'm not a big fan of hybrids plants either.(as you judge from my past threads) 
whoever compared interracial relationships, with hybriding, that's wrong. Reasons because are mention in this thread.
third, wild big cats bloodline in captivity (private) is very murky. one reason private bloodline could never be reintroduce back into the wild.


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## cornchild (Oct 15, 2010)

so does blue+yellow= green? my guess is no.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

cornchild said:


> so does blue+yellow= green? my guess is no.


WHAT?! im confused... it does...

anyways, i agree with a lot here, i'd rather have inbred then hybrids... or even better f1's... and IMO hybrids dont look all that amazing...


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## triply (Nov 26, 2010)

Ed said:


> And or is very young.. I think most high schools teach basic bio in either 9th or 10th grade so that would put the age range very close to 13-14 which also corresponds to the grammer.
> 
> Ed


25 there ed. i was raised in North Carolina then home schooled. I never got the chance to take biology i will be taking it when i go to school in the spring semester.

I appreciate the information given by everyone I am new to the hobby and completely ignorant when it comes to biology and what not. I am not ignorant to the reason behind keeping bloodlines pure now thanks to all the good comments.

as for GRAMMAR lol i wouldn't criticize something you cant spell 

once again thanks for the information everyone.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

triply said:


> as for GRAMMAR lol i wouldn't criticize something you cant spell
> .


You may want to recheck your dictionary... 

While I normally don't like quoting wikipedia 

quote "In linguistics, *grammar* is the set of structural rules that govern the composition of sentences, phrases, and words in any given natural language. The term refers also to the study of such rules, and this field includes morphology, syntax, and phonology, often complemented by phonetics, semantics, and pragmatics. Linguists do not normally use the term to refer to orthographical rules, although usage books and style guides that call themselves grammars may also refer to spelling and punctuation" endquote. 

See Grammar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

*Grammar* as can be noted in the above cited reference, covers a lot more than simple spelling..... 

I do occasionally fall prey to misspelling due to typing too quickly and some other issues, but that isn't the case here.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My mistake. 
I shouldn't try dealing with multiple things at the same time on occasion.. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> You may want to recheck your dictionary...
> 
> While I normally don't like quoting wikipedia
> 
> ...


You used _four_ or _five_ instead of _three_ periods of ellipses. Oopsy daisy. 
I don't normally nitpick on grammar or spelling but I'm bored...and thought it was in good humour given that it's a correction of a correction. BTW I don't really care---I use dashes improperly like they're going out of style---and any good novelist skimps on the grammar if they're doing a narrative. 

Plus, it waters down the whole 'yet ANOTHER hybrid thread' grief.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

boabab95 said:


> WHAT?! im confused... it does...
> 
> anyways, i agree with a lot here, i'd rather have inbred then hybrids... or even better f1's... and IMO hybrids dont look all that amazing...


When mixing colors, yellow + blue = green. But colors in animals are a product of pigment cells as well as reflective cells. Yellow is caused by pigmentation; blue is caused by a reflection of specific wavelengths of light, as it bounces off of crystalline structures in the cell (this is known as Rayleigh scattering).

Rayleigh scattering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Chromatophore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Biological pigment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## triply (Nov 26, 2010)

Ed said:


> You may want to recheck your dictionary...
> 
> I do occasionally fall prey to misspelling due to typing too quickly and some other issues, but that isn't the case here....
> 
> Ed


well you spelled it grammer not grammar

and besides i was just giving you grief i could care less how you spelled it especially seeing as how i very rarely go out of my way to even right click something if i spell it wrong to correct it 

also i appreciate the info you gave me earlier regarding the species questions i had it cleared up what i needed to know.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

triply said:


> and besides i was just giving you grief i could care less how you spelled it especially seeing as how i very rarely go out of my way to even right click something if i spell it wrong to correct it


Given that discussion forums such as this one depend upon the written medium, it would go along way toward your future communication(s) to at least type legibly. And I'm not talking about using some archaic 17th century version of English here - just putting periods between complete thoughts and using capital letters at the beginning of those thoughts (i.e. sentences) would help people take your questions and responses more seriously.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

boabab95 said:


> WHAT?! im confused... it does...


depending. genes can work like that, but not always. "blending theory" was proven wrong over a hundred years ago 

id go into more detail but i had a cellular biology exam yesterday and frankly im quite sick of genes at the moment!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Given that discussion forums such as this one depend upon the written medium, it would go along way toward your future communication(s) to at least type legibly. And I'm not talking about using some archaic 17th century version of English here - just putting periods between complete thoughts and using capital letters at the beginning of those thoughts (i.e. sentences) would help people take your questions and responses more seriously.


I'd like to attach my addendum to this if I may. The saying is, I *COULDN'T* care less. If you could care less you have the capacity to care less than you currently do, implying that you care.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okapi said:


> When mixing colors, yellow + blue = green. But colors in animals are a product of pigment cells as well as reflective cells. Yellow is caused by pigmentation; blue is caused by a reflection of specific wavelengths of light, as it bounces off of crystalline structures in the cell (this is known as Rayleigh scattering).
> 
> Rayleigh scattering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Chromatophore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Biological pigment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



You can actually have metallic yellows that are iridiopore produced.. for example those seen in some of the thumbnails in addition to those pigments listed above (like the yellow that shows up in some of the ventrimaculatus tadpoles before they metamorph). 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

fleshfrombone said:


> I'd like to attach my addendum to this if I may. The saying is, I *COULDN'T* care less. If you could care less you have the capacity to care less than you currently do, implying that you care.


Even I have at least once, fallen victim to the dreaded....................*Caring Continuum*


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