# Can springtails and isopods be primary food source?



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Hi everyone. I’m new to the hobby and have been lurking the threads for some time now in preparation for owning PDFs. I know most people feed FFs, but I was wondering if it’s possible to primarily feed a variety of springtails and isopods, along with flour beetle larvae and XS Phoenix worm larvae? FF culturing seems really involved, and if I can get multiple spring and iso cultures booming, then it seems a bit easier. Any springs and isos that “escape” feeding can help maintain the viv. The flour beetles seem super easy to culture. And Phoenix worms seem like a great, well-balanced food. What are people’s thoughts on this? I’ve watched some youtubers who supplement feedings with springs and isos. From what I’ve read, FFs are pretty nutrition deficient, can’t be gutloaded. Obviously, springs would be similar nutritionally, but dwarf isos *might* have more calcium and can sort of be gut loaded with fruits and veg? Perhaps I’m just trying to justify not culturing FFs since I’d have to make a culture every week. I could supplement with some store bought FFs every month or so, but was wondering if it’s possible to primarily feed springtails and isopods, along with beetles and Phoenix worms (black soldier fly larvae)?


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

That all sounds way, way, way more complicated than culturing fruit flies  I see what you are trying to avoid, but I think trying to introduce all of that other stuff is a lot bigger hassle than doing flies primarily and augmenting with the other stuff. The only thing I didn't see considered in your plan is dusting supplements. That is the easiest (and best, to my knowledge) way to make sure you are balancing nutrients properly. The other thing that I would say about some alternative sources of food for darts is that they can be very fatty and dart frogs tend to be obese even when fed primarily with fruit flies, which aren't especially fatty foods. Termites, for instance, are not a very good primary food source for this reason. Anyway, I would take another look at culturing fruit flies. I far prefer doing the fruit fly grind to having to go to a pet store and buy all kinds of other feeders. It's a hassle and I don't want any more temptations to add to my collection  

Mark
P.S. I should have said that it maybe possible to do what you are suggesting (with the addition of good quality supplements) but I don't think it would end up being any savings in time, money, and energy. YMMV.


----------



## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Fruit fly cultures are the easiest and cheapest animal food I've worked with. They're low maintenance, don't take up space, and breed in huge numbers. I don't see any reason to go out of your way to avoid them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Hi Mark! Thanks for the reply 

Yes, I do plan on supplementing. I’ve already purchased Repashy Calcium Plus. I also got a low light UVB light (I know there are conflicting thoughts as to whether UVB is helpful but from what I’ve read it can’t hurt). Not sure if I should also supplement with Vitamin A monthly since I’m not breeding them, but it may be a good idea. 

I’ll already be culturing 2-3 varieties of springs as CUC as well as 2 varieties of isos so it’s not any extra work. The flour beetles sound foolproof, just sift out the larvae every other week to feed. The Phoenix worms are a nice, healthy treat. Too much work to culture IMO esp since I don’t have a compost pile, but they’re supposed to be an amazing food source (high in calcium, no need to dust; high in protein; Laurie acid kills any bacteria in frog’s stomach). I’d buy those for the health of my frog. 

Are there any downsides to using isos and springs versus FFs? They’d be properly dusted for each feeding. The benefit I see is twofold: less work for me since I’ll already be culturing them and any that “escape” during feeding time will help maintain the viv. The only downside I see is a boring diet, which is why I’ll add in beetles and Phoenix worms, and occasionally FFs. I’ve read wax worms are a nice, occasional treat (but fatty). I, too, did read termites are not great- fatty and hurts their kidneys. But I def won’t be culturing termites. Imagine if they got loose in the house! Lol 

Other food sources I’ve considered and decided against: pinhead crickets seem like a pain to culture- grow large too quickly, smell, make noise, not nutritious unless gut-loaded. Most of them would get too large before I could feed them. I also have heard stories of bean beetles causing impaction in PDFs, leading to death so I’ve decided against raising those. 

Most of my arguments against FFs nutritionally can be applied to springtails, too. It’s more the hassle of culturing them weekly. Am hoping I can get around that by using my CUC as a food source, along with flour beetle larvae and Phoenix worms. Lawn shrimp will also be part of my CUC. Any that end up being eaten may provide some vitamin A/beta carotene. When they die (usually due to desiccation), they turn red, leading people to believe there’s some vitamin A in their exoskeleton. If I can get the culture going, then these will also be part of their diet. I think that’s a good variety, but being new I figured I’d get input from you knowledgeable folks and defer to your experience


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

If FF are really that easy to culture, I may do hydei. Since they take 3-4 weeks, that’s less work for me (?) and they’re “meatier” so the frogs will have to eat less to get the same amount of calories (compared to the melanogaster). 

What are people’s thoughts about roaches as food and/or CUC? Roach Crossing sells a bunch. The Little Kenyan Roach adult size is 8-10mm (I could feed the roach babies) and they do well in warm, moist environments (temp 70-85) so if they escape during feeding, they can survive in the tank, aerating soil and eating waste. 

I know I started the thread focusing on springs and isos, so I apologize for going off topic. I’m just very excited and trying to learn as much as I can


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> If FF are really that easy to culture, I may do hydei. Since they take 3-4 weeks, that’s less work for me (?) and they’re “meatier” so the frogs will have to eat less to get the same amount of calories (compared to the melanogaster).
> 
> What are people’s thoughts about roaches as food and/or CUC? Roach Crossing sells a bunch. The Little Kenyan Roach adult size is 8-10mm (I could feed the roach babies) and they do well in warm, moist environments (temp 70-85) so if they escape during feeding, they can survive in the tank, aerating soil and eating waste.
> 
> I know I started the thread focusing on springs and isos, so I apologize for going off topic. I’m just very excited and trying to learn as much as I can


I use roaches (Dubias and Orange Heads) for reptiles . They escape, are expensive, and escape. Have I mentioned they escape? That whole 'this species doesn't climb' argument? No. Not true. Ever have a roach on your kitchen table? If you're married, and don't want to be, get some roaches.

A bit more seriously:

I think I've read that mels produce more biomass per culture than hydei. I've tried hydei, and none of my frogs or geckos ate them. I'm not sure the 'frogs have to eat less' thought really matters; the work of hunting is _good_ for the frogs. Go to McDonalds and look around, then watch a video on the last of the hunter-gatherers, and you'll see.

FFs are super easy to culture. Takes 2 minutes a week. People use them _because_ they are so easy.



sunnysideup said:


> I’m new to the hobby


That's cool. It is a really interesting hobby. It is really, really best to do things the established way, to 'stand on the shoulders of giants', until you get oriented. No need to reinvent the wheel. The hobby really does have things figured out to the point where things are simple and nearly guarantee success.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

LOL at roaches escaping! I def won’t be culturing them then. 

Interesting that melanogasters have more biomass and that your frogs didn’t eat the hydei. Were the hydei too large (were your frogs froglets)? Or did they just not like the taste? It’s funny how much personality frogs can have!

Appreciate your input! I’m rethinking culturing FFs... but if it’s possible to use springs, isos, and lawn shrimp (all properly dusted, of course) as the primary food source, along with flour beetle larvae and Phoenix worms every other week, then I’d prefer to do that with wax worms as a monthly treat. Who knows, perhaps the frogs I get will dislike springs and isos and I’ll be forced to culture FFs! Frogs can be just like humans in their taste preferences


----------



## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Fruit flies are by far easier, and more reliable for feeding your frogs. There's a reason why they have come to be the standard feeder in the hobby, and that's because early hobbyists tried lots of things, much like what you're thinking of feeding, which ended up with a lot of sad results. 

Vitamin A is not simply for breeding purposes. It is a staple supplement that your frogs require. Deformities in the offspring are a symptom of deficiencies in the parents, which I have read here in multiple threads. 

Springtails cannot be dusted. They are extremely sensitive to desiccation, and would die very quickly when tumbled into a bit of powder. The only way I know to get springtails to have any increased calcium value is to use a calcium bearing substrate, which is labor intensive for the DIY option, and expensive to purchase pre-made. Trying to gutload isopods would be a challenge, since many can establish populations in the tank, and which would end up eating random things in the tank with unknown nutritional value for the frogs. It would not be possible to control what they ate, or whether the frogs primarily ate tank isopods that survived their initial feeding, or isopods freshly dumped into the tank. Isopods also don't reproduce nearly as uniformly as fruit flies. Waxworms are way too big for most dart frogs. 

While hydei are larger, they are also harder to culture. Culturing flies may sound intimidating, but you can practice culturing them long before you even get frogs, so you can get good at it, and feel confident about the process. If you can find a local frogger to show you how they do it, or at least watch AND READ a tutorial, you'll probably find it easy. I mean, fruit flies will overwhelm your house if you lose a hand of bananas in the basement somewhere (oops) with no effort on your part whatsoever, so giving them food on purpose? They will hardly be able to contain their gametes!


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> Interesting that melanogasters have more biomass and that your frogs didn’t eat the hydei. Were the hydei too large (were your frogs froglets)? Or did they just not like the taste? It’s funny how much personality frogs can have!


I'm not sure what the issue was with hydei. They might have been too large for imitators. Leucomelas didn't take them, either, nor did mourning geckos; likely simply an unfamiliar food source for these two. I didn't try withholding other foods in order to convert them to hydei, since that wasn't my aim.

+1 on everything Woodswalker said above about the problems with these alternate prey items. Those are lots of strong reasons (there are likely others, too, some having to do with the extreme challenge of trying to cultivate enough isos and springs to feed even a couple frogs -- these guys simply don't reproduce quickly enough to be a viable staple) for why FFs are the _sine qua non_ of dart frog keeping.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Woodswalker said:


> Vitamin A is not simply for breeding purposes. It is a staple supplement that your frogs require. Deformities in the offspring are a symptom of deficiencies in the parents, which I have read here in multiple threads.


Good to know! This is why I love this site and all the knowledge other hobbyists can provide. How often should I supplement with Vitamin A (Repashy)? Monthly? It’s fat soluble, so it can be fatal if doing it too frequently. Along that note, how frequently should flies be dusted? Some say every feeding, others say every other feeding. Some people feed every day, others 3x per week. Juveniles should be fed every day, adults can be fed every other day. Is this correct? I’ve read multiple schools of thought and watched other hobbyists on YouTube. Every one does things a bit differently. Would love to hear your thoughts on supplementation. FYI: I plan on using UVB lighting since it helps with vitamin D synthesis and calcium uptake. 



Woodswalker said:


> Springtails cannot be dusted. They are extremely sensitive to desiccation, and would die very quickly when tumbled into a bit of powder.[/QOUTE]
> I didn’t realize springs can’t be dusted. Makes sense. Thank you for enlightening me!
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

It really is simple to culture melanogaster. I don’t do them every week. A mite less culture can produce for two month or so. 

I’m doing lower volume of media so I can do restart cultures more frequently. I have got rid of my mite problem within a generation. I’ve had frogs and reptiles most my life and usually had the cricket or pinkey route. The ff path is much nicer.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> Haha very true! Luckily I have carnivorous plants which are living fly paper!! I highly suggest getting some. They’re beautiful to look at and useful! I have multiple pitcher plants, butterworts, and sundews. Just super cool


Do you have pics of your plants that you can post? I've often thought of getting some.


----------



## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

It sounds like you're off to a good start. That you're asking all these things BEFORE getting frogs is fantastic. You sound very meticulous. 

As for vitamin A, I personally do it once every other week, so that's two or three times each month. 

Feeding juveniles every day and adults three times a week is a good practice. When you feed frequently, it's best to give smaller meals to avoid obesity. A lot of hobbyists like to give a number of flies to feed as a general rule of thumb. I don't like counting tiny, wiggling things, and find it easier to say to give volumetric quantities. So, as a ballpark estimate, I give about a quarter teaspoon to my solo auratus (smallest population) every other day or so, and to my group of six (largest pop.), I give about 1-2 teaspoons of flies 2-4 times each week, depending on how the days fall, and whether or not I'm home to feed them, or how many flies are still left in the tank. I also cut back a bit when they start looking a little less muscular, and more undefined. This isn't necessarily a prescription for how it must be done; it's just my schedule for consideration as a single data point in the broader set of practices in the hobby.

Most dart frogs tend to eat pretty small prey, some larger phyllobates being obvious exceptions. It would be the baby isopods that they would be eating, and they're harder to catch in large numbers. I think it's great that you plan to gutload them and raise them with the goal of increased calcium content. I do wonder, though, how much of the calcium in their shells will actually be bio-available to the frogs. That's not something I've ever been able to discern. Young isos more likely have thinner shells, too. Isopods will make a nice supplemental feeder, just like the lawn shrimp and the springtails, so it's really great that you're going to be using them to add variety.


----------



## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> What are people’s thoughts about roaches as food and/or CUC? Roach Crossing sells a bunch. The Little Kenyan Roach adult size is 8-10mm (I could feed the roach babies) and they do well in warm, moist environments (temp 70-85) so if they escape during feeding, they can survive in the tank, aerating soil and eating waste.


There are more than 4000 cochroach species on our planet. Just a handful of them is viewed as pests. The moste expensive pet cochroach is retailing at 500 usd a pair. It speaks for itself, cannot be a pest .

I have a culture of Kenyan roaches to culture for food and cleaners. They really need it hot and humid to survive and they like to stay burried in the substrate. Only the adult males can climb glass, and they are to big to escape a normal tank. I am not sure, but most likelly they live and reproduce in the tank.

After my whife order I have a feromonal cochroach trap close to the tank. I Switch it 4 times a year after recomendations. So far after 1 year there havent been one single escape. However, if they do escape they will not survive long outside the tank where I am living. The air is to dry.

That beeing said. The kenyan roaches is very slow at reproducing so they are far from a good solution as staple food. FFs is still the best staple food.

Culturing a lot of small critters for food is also a fun side of the hobby (at least if you are like me ). And varied diet is the best. I keep 8 different species for food. Summertime I go outside and collect food as well.

BR
Magnus


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> I have a culture of Kenyan roaches to culture for food and cleaners. They really need it hot and humid to survive and they like to stay burried in the substrate. Only the adult males can climb glass, and they are to big to escape a normal tank.


do kenyan roaches escape? i know you mentioned they need it hot/humid, otherwise they die, but they are roaches and those things can survive an apocalypse! lol do you think they're good as CUC? will they bother the PDFs?




tropfrog said:


> Culturing a lot of small critters for food is also a fun side of the hobby (at least if you are like me ). And varied diet is the best. I keep 8 different species for food.


can you share what 8 species you culture for food? i def want to provide my frogs a varied diet so they're happy. but don't want it to be too time consuming. any pointers? appreciate any insight you can provide!


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Woodswalker said:


> It sounds like you're off to a good start. That you're asking all these things BEFORE getting frogs is fantastic. You sound very meticulous.
> 
> As for vitamin A, I personally do it once every other week, so that's two or three times each month.


Thanks! I like to do my research beforehand. Sometimes I think I enjoy the research bit just as much as the execution! That being said, I may have been a bit impulsive and saw a great Black Friday deal and got 2 azureus from Petco. They looked like they're buddies. The store associate said they'd been there at least 2 months, but couldn't tell me their sex or age. They're about a half inch, maybe 3/4 inch long. I assume pet stores don't sell frogs until they're about 4-6 months old. That would make my frogs approx 6-8mo old?

I quarantined them a couple days, but they didn't seem happy in the QT tank (and they seemed a bit stressed) so I put them in a 20 gallon high that's planted. They seem MUCH happier here, but the downside is that it is quite large for them and more difficult for them to get their food. I *am* feeding them FFs I got from Petco. Should I be dusting the FFs every feeding? Some articles I read said to dust every other feeding, esp if feeding juveniles. I also read that juveniles should be fed 2x a day, every day until adult size. While I don't want my frogs to be obese, it seems the general consensus is that a plump frog is a healthy frog (so long as it's not bloated). Some sites say to feed enough flies that they'll eat in 30min. Otherwise it stresses them?

And before I get any flak about not QTing the frogs longer, I am monitoring their poop, getting it tested, and making sure they both have opportunities to eat (one is more shy than the other so it doesn't come out to feed as much). Josh's Frog had an article about how they don't recommend QTing (https://joshsfrogs.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201198407-Do-I-need-to-quarantine-my-frogs-) so after seeing how sad they looked (even though there was a live pothos and some coco huts and moss), I thought it best to put them in their forever home. They seem much more active and happier.

Since I'm on the FF bandwagon now, does anyone have a FF media recipe? I know a lot of people make their own or use Repashy's mix. Some recipes include instant potatoes, nutritional and brewer's yeast, spirulina, beet root powder, paprika, cinnamon, powdered sugar, flaxseed, and ground banana chips. Do people use coffee filters or excelsior? Where do you buy the deli cups with fabric/vented lids? Are these one-time use only, or can they be washed, sterilized, and re-used?






Woodswalker said:


> Feeding juveniles every day and adults three times a week is a good practice. When you feed frequently, it's best to give smaller meals to avoid obesity. A lot of hobbyists like to give a number of flies to feed as a general rule of thumb. I don't like counting tiny, wiggling things, and find it easier to say to give volumetric quantities. So, as a ballpark estimate, I give about a quarter teaspoon to my solo auratus (smallest population) every other day or so, and to my group of six (largest pop.), I give about 1-2 teaspoons of flies 2-4 times each week, depending on how the days fall, and whether or not I'm home to feed them, or how many flies are still left in the tank. I also cut back a bit when they start looking a little less muscular, and more undefined. This isn't necessarily a prescription for how it must be done; it's just my schedule for consideration as a single data point in the broader set of practices in the hobby.


Thank you for this! I've been feeding my new froggies 2x a day (one is more timid and doesn't come out until later in the day) to ensure both get a chance to eat. I don't feed too many flies, but I have dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus each time. Since the FF have a tendency to escape quickly (even with a feeding station primed with some fruit!) the calcium wears off the escapees due to the high humidity. But I guess I'll stagger my calcium dusting. I'll go to a reptile store and see if they have the Repashy Vitamin A supplement. I haven't been able to find it at any Petco and Petsmart stores near me. I've been to 8 diff stores! lol I may just buy on Amazon. NEHERP said to only dust Vit A every 2 months for juveniles, monthly for adults.

Not sure if I should make a new thread, but does anyone have any advice on how to contain FFs? They seem to have a habit of crawling up. I really don't want them to escape. Would appreciate any tips on FFs.... I currently keep them at room temp in the bathroom since it's easy to see any escapees. I can't believe I'm raising FFs since I hate seeing them in the house where I keep my bananas - which is why I purchased my carnivorous plants! lol

Thanks everyone who chimed in. Appreciate all the advice.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Do you have pics of your plants that you can post? I've often thought of getting some.


Not sure how to post pix? I'm new to the site and still learning.

Check out Predatory Plants. I went to their brick and mortar store, but they ship everywhere! They are currently having a Black Friday Sale (30% off): https://predatoryplants.com/

I think California Carnivores is another great site. You can even purchase carnivorous plants on Amazon and even at local nurseries and Lowes/Home Depot. People online say they've had success finding butterworts at Lowes, but I've only seen pitcher plants and venus fly traps there. My Home Depot had a sundew, likely a capensis, in the indoor plant section. They were labeled "octopus plant" and were next to the venus fly traps. So if you don't want to pay for shipping and don't care what variety you get, it doesn't hurt to check your local home improvement stores and get one for $7. They have similar care requirements as PDFs (prefer warmer, humid climates, need RO water) so they're perfect for keeping in a viv. Not sure about the sticky enzyme stuff, but I have seen frogs co-existing with pitcher plants at Sarrecenia Northwest (they have an instagram and youtube page). A lot of times the frogs will sit inside the pitcher and wait for the bugs which are drawn to the pitcher plant, stealing the plant's food! lol

There are tons of sundew varieties! I was planning to plant my butterworts and sundews in the viv with my frogs but decided against it as I don't know if the sticky enzymes will hurt the frogs. I will put my nepenthes in there (pitcher plants).

Just keep in mind that sundews like bog (standing water) and slightly acidic, nutrient-deficient soil, while butterworts prefer well-draining and slightly basic, nutrient-deficient soil. Pitcher plants like well-draining and slightly acidic medium (sphagnum moss is great). If you can raise a dart frog, you can def keep carnivorous plants!


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I was interested in pics of yours since I wanted to see how you were growing them out of a viv. Humidity here is a problem.

This is all a bit tangential to the thread, so no worries for no pics. And, thanks for the links!


----------



## SirGunther (Jun 4, 2014)

sunnysideup said:


> Since I'm on the FF bandwagon now, does anyone have a FF media recipe? I know a lot of people make their own or use Repashy's mix. Some recipes include instant potatoes, nutritional and brewer's yeast, spirulina, beet root powder, paprika, cinnamon, powdered sugar, flaxseed, and ground banana chips. Do people use coffee filters or excelsior? Where do you buy the deli cups with fabric/vented lids? Are these one-time use only, or can they be washed, sterilized, and re-used?



I recommend NEHERP FF media. It's ridiculously easy to use (no mixing!), and I spend 5 minutes a week on making FFs. I have used other media, but for me NEHERP requires the least amount of work. I haven't noticed a difference in productivity between different media, and I haven't had any problems with cultures crashing when using purchased media. You can get the cups, and lids, and excelsior, at NEHERP, and Joshsfrogs sells them too.


----------



## jilsao (Jan 21, 2018)

A couple things I didn't see mentioned, although they may have been, I perused pretty quickly... Some frogs won't eat spring tails. Once my P. terribilis got some size on they wouldn't touch the spring tails. They occasionally go after an isopod or two. Also, and maybe others have had different luck with this, the drilled top fruit fly cups crashed quickly when I tried them. The cloth top work out just fine. I'm not sure if the larvae are blocking the holes and cutting off air, or maybe they just dry out quicker, but the drilled tops crashed after a week or two. Again, maybe under someone else's conditions they've worked, but not for me. There are lots of good recipes for culture medium out there. I just buy repashy superfly twice a year, since I'm a bit lazy. I have heard of good results with the home made stuff. Some theoretically better than the premade. Hell, try both, and melanogaster and hydro. You have time to experiment. Good luck!


----------



## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> do kenyan roaches escape? i know you mentioned they need it hot/humid, otherwise they die, but they are roaches and those things can survive an apocalypse! lol do you think they're good as CUC? will they bother the PDFs?
> 
> 
> 
> can you share what 8 species you culture for food? i def want to provide my frogs a varied diet so they're happy. but don't want it to be too time consuming. any pointers? appreciate any insight you can provide!



Well teoretically, all animals can escape any enclosure, that is the chaos theory. Not all roaches is very hardy, just as not all PDF is very sensitive. I havent had one single escape of kenyan roach and I am sure they will not survive for long outside the tank.

At the moment i keep for food:
drosdophillia melanogaster
drosdophillia hydei
green bean aphids

And for cleaners and food:
kenyan roaches
cuban woodlice
tropical white woodlice
springtails

Also for cleaning only:
grinal worms.

As soon as the spring arrives here and shipping is starting I will try out bean bugs as well.

There are a few other possible feeders that I dont personally want to try:

Thermobia domestica: They need it warmer than i can give them.
Achroia grisella: They are pests for the bee-hives. As a bee-kepper I dont want to risk culturing them.

I am sure there are a lot of more possible feeders that I dont know of yet or are not awailable in Europe.

BR
Magnus


----------



## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

sunnysideup said:


> T got 2 azureus from Petco.


I would be remiss not to mention that Petco does not have the best reputation with darts. It would seem you are putting in the research so I would suggest googling "dendroboard petco" and see what pops up. With azureus I feel there would be less of a chance of hybridization and with them it is hard to nail down lineage anyway. However if I got darts from petco I would not raise offspring and certainly would not distribute them to other hobbyists.

As far as food sources I am glad you went the FF route. Something to consider my darts "tincs" want nothing to do with phoenix worms and only 1 out of 4 of them will eat isopods (and that one does so reluctantly)


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> Well teoretically, all animals can escape any enclosure, that is the chaos theory. Not all roaches is very hardy, just as not all PDF is very sensitive. I havent had one single escape of kenyan roach and I am sure they will not survive for long outside the tank.
> 
> At the moment i keep for food:
> drosdophillia melanogaster
> ...


Thanks for this! Where do you get your green bean aphids? If you put them in the viv and some don’t get eaten, will they eat your plants? Can they be dusted?

You should consider flour beetles. They seem ridiculously easy to culture (some pop up in packages flour if not used for awhile or in bulk flour bins at the market). No watering or feeding, just change the media every few months and sift out larvae every couple weeks. The larvae can be sifted out and fed to the frogs. The adult beetles taste bitter and most don’t like them. You do have to dispose of the used flour substrate by freezing it to kill any eggs since they are a pest. They also cannot fly or climb smooth surfaces!

WRT bean beetles- I’ve read posts saying they may cause impaction so it might be something you consider. Again, I’m new to the hobby so this is just stuff I’ve read. I actually don’t know if flour beetles are easy to culture, just seems super easy!


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

thedudeabides said:


> I would be remiss not to mention that Petco does not have the best reputation with darts. It would seem you are putting in the research so I would suggest googling "dendroboard petco" and see what pops up. With azureus I feel there would be less of a chance of hybridization and with them it is hard to nail down lineage anyway. However if I got darts from petco I would not raise offspring and certainly would not distribute them to other hobbyists.
> 
> As far as food sources I am glad you went the FF route. Something to consider my darts "tincs" want nothing to do with phoenix worms and only 1 out of 4 of them will eat isopods (and that one does so reluctantly)


I def don’t plan on breeding them! Not sure if they’re male or female or both male/female. I just thought it’d be nice for them to have a buddy, esp since they were tankmates already. They def look like typical azureus. Wasn’t planning on buying at petco since I was there getting some supplies, but they were super cute and there was a Black Friday sale. 

I tried feeding XS Phoenix worms and I don’t think they ate them. They may have, or the worms moved into the substrate. If I see any black soldier flies then I know they weren’t eaten. I also tried giving them small wax worms but none got eaten. For now, I have 3 types of FFs: Turkish gliders, reg drosophila, and hydei. Some errant flies can fly... which freaks me out. And they have a tendency to escape when I open the lid. As long as the frogs are happy, I guess I’ll keep culturing them lol


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

thedudeabides said:


> I would be remiss not to mention that Petco does not have the best reputation with darts. It would seem you are putting in the research so I would suggest googling "dendroboard petco" and see what pops up. With azureus I feel there would be less of a chance of hybridization and with them it is hard to nail down lineage anyway. However if I got darts from petco I would not raise offspring and certainly would not distribute them to other hobbyists.
> 
> As far as food sources I am glad you went the FF route. Something to consider my darts "tincs" want nothing to do with phoenix worms and only 1 out of 4 of them will eat isopods (and that one does so reluctantly)


I just read the posts and they sound really sad. The Petco I went to knew a LOT about dart frogs (the manager used to own PDFs in a bioactive setup) and the employees knew a lot about frogs in general. I called and they told me their breeder is California Zoological so they are not hybridized. That being said, one of the azureus (I call “her” Skye) looked like s/he was having a seizure this morning. I’m taking her to the vet and Petco is going to cover the costs. From what I read, it could be parasites (but I had the poop analyzed and it came back clean) or a calcium deficiency (but I use Repashy calcium plus every feeding). Since s/he’s so reclusive, I rarely see Skye eat, but today I was lucky enough to watch her. She seems interested in the FFs, but kind of watches them intensely for minutes before deciding to go after one. She kept missing, so finally she climbed onto the orange (my feeding station) and got a FF. A few minutes later, she had the “seizure” and did a head bobbing thing. I wonder if she has a cal deficiency since she doesn’t go after the FFs when I first put them in and the cal likely has worn off by the time she goes after the FFs. I’m going to get both checked out by a vet. I put her in a quarantine critter keeper and put heavily-dusted hydei flies in there. I figure if she only eats a few hydei, there’s more nutrition than her trying with a few drosophila. 

I kept my distance since she seems very timid and will hide if I’m around. I’d rather her try to eat than keep watching her and stressing her out. Oddly, she seems more at home in the critter keeper than in my bioactive tank as she seems out and about, climbing around and having a good time. I haven’t checked to see if the hydei are gone yet. Giving her time to eat. If she’s eaten them all, I’ll give her a few more. 

The other “guy” is Bozo. Doesn’t seem to have trouble eating, is a lot more bold. But I think I’ll also take him to the vet since I’d like to get them both treated if somethings wrong. He’ll get his own critter keeper. 

Just wanted to share that not all Petco’s are equal. Not sure if I’d have these issues if I’d gotten my PDFs from a breeder on this forum, but I’m glad Petco stands behind their animals and provides vet care when needed.


----------



## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> Thanks for this! Where do you get your green bean aphids? If you put them in the viv and some don’t get eaten, will they eat your plants? Can they be dusted?


I live in Sweden, here it is quite many that keep Green been aphids. I have no idea if it is used anywhere else. Since it is a pest it could be that it is not legal in all countries. They only eat bean leaves, nothing else. But, Wow they can kill a whole field in a couple of weeks during the right circumstances. If you live close to bean fields, dont even think about it. They Cannot be dusted.

Br
Magnus


----------



## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

sunnysideup said:


> I just read the posts and they sound really sad. The Petco I went to knew a LOT about dart frogs (the manager used to own PDFs in a bioactive setup) and the employees knew a lot about frogs in general. I called and they told me their breeder is California Zoological so they are not hybridized. That being said, one of the azureus (I call “her” Skye) looked like s/he was having a seizure this morning. I’m taking her to the vet and Petco is going to cover the costs. From what I read, it could be parasites (but I had the poop analyzed and it came back clean) or a calcium deficiency (but I use Repashy calcium plus every feeding). Since s/he’s so reclusive, I rarely see Skye eat, but today I was lucky enough to watch her. She seems interested in the FFs, but kind of watches them intensely for minutes before deciding to go after one. She kept missing, so finally she climbed onto the orange (my feeding station) and got a FF. A few minutes later, she had the “seizure” and did a head bobbing thing. I wonder if she has a cal deficiency since she doesn’t go after the FFs when I first put them in and the cal likely has worn off by the time she goes after the FFs. I’m going to get both checked out by a vet. I put her in a quarantine critter keeper and put heavily-dusted hydei flies in there. I figure if she only eats a few hydei, there’s more nutrition than her trying with a few drosophila.
> 
> I kept my distance since she seems very timid and will hide if I’m around. I’d rather her try to eat than keep watching her and stressing her out. Oddly, she seems more at home in the critter keeper than in my bioactive tank as she seems out and about, climbing around and having a good time. I haven’t checked to see if the hydei are gone yet. Giving her time to eat. If she’s eaten them all, I’ll give her a few more.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you are putting in the research which is great. Sounds like that petco is not the norm and cares about thier darts which is great (had no idea they would do something like pay for a vet visit). 

That being said the seizures and missing fruit flies sounds like a vit A deficiency. Research STS (sticky tongue syndrome). My guess would be if petco was supplementing it was only calcium and not vit A. Most places that supply repashy only have the calcium supplements so I would stop trying to find it local and order some ASAP.


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

sunnysideup said:


> I called and they told me their breeder is California Zoological so they are not hybridized.


CalZoo is a nationwide reptile wholesaler who buys herps from anyone who offers them at an acceptable price. They provide both CB and WC animals, and don't distinguish between the two when purchasing. CalZoo is not itself a breeder, and cannot provide lineage info on the animals they sell.


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> CalZoo is a nationwide reptile wholesaler who buys herps from anyone who offers them at an acceptable price. They provide both CB and WC animals, and don't distinguish between the two when purchasing. CalZoo is not itself a breeder, and cannot provide lineage info on the animals they sell.


Sorry- the employee gave me the wrong info. After speaking with the Petco manager (who currently owns a ton of PDFs, is an active dendroboard member), he informed me that the frogs I purchased are from a reputable breeder (a dendroboard site sponsor). He says this vendor sells wholesale to pet stores and he wasn’t supposed to tell me. He said he’s going to provide their paperwork/lineage and assured me they were CB and not hybridized. He also seemed shocked that there were parasites and didn’t seem to believe that info. He said, if anything, they may have some contact with Pac-Man frogs, and said there could always be parasites, but was in disbelief about the parasites. 

On a side note, I went to East Bay Vivarium and one of their employees is a fellow hobbyist. He said parasites like pinworms and coccyl (?) are typically present in crickets and FFs. So that may be how they got them. I was originally feeding them FFs from Petco, but recently switched to hydei from a local hobbyist I found on dendroboard. Her hydei are HUGE!!! The hydei I saw at EBV were 1/3 the size of hers. She also gave me reg drosophila and Turkish gliders. Not sure which ones escaped, but they FLY!!!! I didn’t realize I have to ask for wingless melanogasters and flightless hydei...

I know I shouldn’t have purchased from Petco, but my experience with them has been very positive. The employees were knowledgeable, cared about the animals, are paying for all the vet bills (even letting me go elsewhere for a second opinion), and if they don’t make it will replace them (but I am really hoping they make it!!). Their main concern seems to be their animals, which has impressed me. Again, my experience is likely unique. The only thing I’m not happy about was the presence of parasites. Not sure if the parasites would’ve passed on their own if the frogs weren’t stressed (lowered immunity), but otherwise I’m happy with how Petco has been handling all this. 

But going back to the original post- I am raising 3 types of FFs!! They creep me out but as long as my frogs are happy, I’ll keep doing it. 

Thanks everyone who provided some guidance. Really appreciate your comments and advice!

PS i originally thought she might have STS, but she was able to get a couple FFs that day while I watched. I’m nervous about supplementing with vitamin A since t is fat soluble and too much can be deadly. I do have a ZooMed multi that I was planning to alternate as well. I will purchase the Repashy Vitamin A. None of the reptile stores carry it! So right now, it’s just Repashy Cal Plus FFs, lowering the humidity to 80-85%, UVB light, and Flukers liquid multi/liquid cal in the water bowls. The Repashy vitamin A should come in this week, so I’ll use it monthly. 

Skye poops a lot. Her poop is normal-looking, but drier than Bozo’s. His is larger, well-formed, but just a little more wet. Skye’s looks like drier turds. On a related note- how much poop is normal per day? Since I have them in QT tanks with a paper towel that I clean every day, I’ve noticed Bozo poops at least once if not twice a day. Skye is now beginning to also have one turd a day. However, today, I noticed Bozo did not poop, which is unusual for him. What have you guys noticed with your frogs’ bowel movements?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sunnysideup said:


> On a side note, I went to East Bay Vivarium and one of their employees is a fellow hobbyist. He said parasites like pinworms and coccyl (?) are typically present in crickets and FFs. So that may be how they got them.


*This is an often repeated bunch of BS...*. As an example of this see 

Klarsfeld, Jonathan D., and Mark A. Mitchell. "An Evaluation of the Gray Cricket, Acheta domestica, as a Source of Oxyurids for Reptiles." Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery 15.1 (2005): 18-20. 

Totally a bunch of BS... your frogs did not get parasites from the crickets or worms. As I noted in another thread, all a negative fecal tells you is that nothing was detected at that time. There are studies that show animals that test negative on fecals on necropsy still had parasites. Animal do not shed parasites all of the time unless there is something else going on that causes some immunosuppression... 




sunnysideup said:


> I was originally feeding them FFs from Petco, but recently switched to hydei from a local hobbyist I found on dendroboard. Her hydei are HUGE!!! The hydei I saw at EBV were 1/3 the size of hers. She also gave me reg drosophila and Turkish gliders. Not sure which ones escaped, but they FLY!!!! I didn’t realize I have to ask for wingless melanogasters and flightless hydei...


Fly size can change dramatically due to many things such as age of culture, moisture, protein content etc... 




sunnysideup said:


> PS i originally thought she might have STS, but she was able to get a couple FFs that day while I watched. I’m nervous about supplementing with vitamin A since t is fat soluble and too much can be deadly.


So is D3 yet people don't stress about using it... The whole vitamin A thing is based on bad information from the 1980s-1990s when an idiot without any substantiation put it onto message boards that vitamin A was killing chameleons... as a result decades of anurans and other animals were condemned to vitamin A deficiency. 



sunnysideup said:


> I do have a ZooMed multi that I was planning to alternate as well. I will purchase the Repashy Vitamin A


If your supplements do not list retinyl palmitate or retinyl acetate on their ingredient list and only list beta carotene as the source of vitamin A, you need to use something else as you are either furthering or causing vitamin A deficiency since post metamorphic frogs either cannot convert or convert beta carotene very poorly to vitamin A. 

Vitamin A deficiency contributes to a lot of things including immune response, the ability to uptake and use nutrients as well as capture prey. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodswalker said:


> Springtails cannot be dusted. They are extremely sensitive to desiccation, and would die very quickly when tumbled into a bit of powder. !


They can be dusted, the biggest hurdle is collecting them dry enough that they don't clump in the powder and suffocate. Another old timer here suggested using chunks of osmunda ontop of the moist substrate and that works. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

thedudeabides said:


> Sounds like you are putting in the research which is great. Sounds like that petco is not the norm and cares about thier darts which is great (had no idea they would do something like pay for a vet visit).
> 
> That being said the seizures and missing fruit flies sounds like a vit A deficiency. Research STS (sticky tongue syndrome). My guess would be if petco was supplementing it was only calcium and not vit A. Most places that supply repashy only have the calcium supplements so I would stop trying to find it local and order some ASAP.


Ordered Repashy Vit A and the frogs seem to be doing ok (actually gaining wait and more active). I believe for juvies, I’m supposed to dust once a month. If a vit A deficiency is suspected, should I dose weekly for a month?


----------



## sunnysideup (Nov 15, 2018)

Ed said:


> *This is an often repeated bunch of BS...*. As an example of this see
> 
> Klarsfeld, Jonathan D., and Mark A. Mitchell. "An Evaluation of the Gray Cricket, Acheta domestica, as a Source of Oxyurids for Reptiles." Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery 15.1 (2005): 18-20.
> 
> ...


As always, thank you, Ed for providing the scholarly articles for reference! I got the Repashy Vit A from Josh’s Frogs and dusted once last week and once this week. I’ve read that typically young/juvenile frogs should only get their FFs dusted with Vit A once a month (I think this was on NEHERP’s site). If there is suspected Vit A deficiency (like @thedudeabides believes), how often should I dust with Vit A? I only dusted this week as well since most of the FFs the sick frog gets has the supplement dust wiped off since s/he (I think it’s a male) hides for a long time after I add the FFs. She might get a stray dusted FF or two, but by the time s/he eats, most dust has been wiped off as the FFs move about the tank. 

Lately, s/he’s been more active and putting on weight (I think the parasites are gone!) and is a marginally better hunter (doesn’t seem to “miss” getting FFs the handful of times I’ve seen her eat). All good signs!

I bought a few cal supplements:
ZooMed Repti Calcium w D3 -unopened 
RepCal Calcium (phosphorus-free; no D3) -unopened
RepCal Calcium w D3 (phosphorus-free)
Repashy Calcium Plus (“Vit A supplement”)
ZooMed Reptivite w D3 (“Vit A acetate”) 
RepCal Herptivite with beta carotene Multivitamin (“carotene”)-unopened

The ZooMed Reptivite w D3 (“Vit A acetate”) is a good multi that contains Vit A in the same form as the Repashy Vit A. I have a lot of confidence in your input, Ed. What do you recommended in terms of dusting? Right now, I have Repashy Cal Plus, Repashy Vit A, ZooMed Reptivite, and RepCal Calcium open. How would you rotate the supplements? (FYI- this smaller 5.5gal doesn’t have UV light so the cal supplements will need D3)

Right now, this is my schedule (FFs every day as these guys are still growing):
Repashy Vit A 1x per month (although might do 2x per month just in case they have a Vit A deficiency)
ZooMed Reptivite 2x per week
RepCal Calcium 2x per month
Repashy Cal Plus everything else (approx 3x per week)

I’ll have to look into the osmuda. Just curious, I read some of your other posts where you said you exclusively raised your PDFs on crickets. Do you still do that? I really hate FFs (they get everywhere) and would love another feeder option. Right now, I’m trying to breed crickets so I get the tiny pinheads. Still waiting for my flour beetles and bean beetles to come in. I tried feeding XS Phoenix worms, wax worms, and mealworms, but I think they’re still too large since they didn’t eat them. Or they may just not move as much as FFs, which is why I think beetles and pinhead crickets will be a great option. When my azureus get larger, do you think they can handle dubia roach nymphs?

Thanks again for your valuable insight! Happy holidays!


----------



## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Search for continuous bean beatle method. That is the only hope you really have. Crickets suck, gut load poorly, & are terrible to breed due to being such nasty insects. You will beg for FF's after crickets.

Roaches if not contained will hide then feed on your frogs.

The calc plus & A repashy is all you need. Vit A. 1x a month should be fine. The calc plus may get the job done on its own.

Here's the truth. FFs are pretty mandatory. None us enjoy dealing with them, but they've been around forever for a reason. If your getting them everywhere you need to refine your technique & do some FF proofing.

If you want an easy dependable feeder mels are the best FF around. If you don't like cleaning then use the bag method for cultures. Just throw the bag away when they die out then replace.

If you can't deal with FFs then darts may not be for you.


----------

