# Id ?



## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

I have no idea what this may be. I will be researching it until I can find it but thought you all would know off the top your head. 

Thanks in advance.


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Oophpaga histrionica. Could also be sylvatica, i'll leave that to the experts. Don't know about the US but they are illegal in most European countries as Colombia does not export them. Some get in the country through smugglers. 

So it's no frog you'll be very likely to see at dealers. When you do, be prepared to pay big bucks for them and perhaps commit an illegal offense.


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

Very nice looking though!
Are these thumbnail species?


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

Ziggi said:


> Very nice looking though!
> Are these thumbnail species?


You got it!

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed Holder said:


> You got it!
> 
> Ed


these are relatively large pdf's not thumbnails, picture a tinctorius.


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

I like it hehe, way out of my price range though, and let alone availability.


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> these are relatively large pdf's not thumbnails, picture a tinctorius.


Is the pic O.P Histrionicus..?
I thought all pums were basically thumbs......
Ooops...sorry Ziggi
None the less, Great looking specimen!

Ed


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## toxicterribilis (Mar 21, 2008)

Oophaga histrionica Harlequin Poison Dart Frog...


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Very nice. Is that frog yours? What is the locality called?


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## toxicterribilis (Mar 21, 2008)

Oophaga histrionica calling..

YouTube - Oophaga histrionica calling

Oophaga histrionica feeding..

YouTube - O. histrionica fly-catcher


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## toxicterribilis (Mar 21, 2008)

013 said:


> Very nice. Is that frog yours? What is the locality called?



Not my frog , just a pic I have in one of my PDF folders.. 
Pretty sure the locale is Bahia Solano Columbia.


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## toxicterribilis (Mar 21, 2008)

Here is another pic I had..


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

Wow, i'm the only one in the room that doesn't find that call anoying. Oh no, definatley not...The wife will never let me have those LOL
Gorgeous frogs though.

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

A good majority of these guys are now being captive bred in Europe, so the thing will happen with them as the Vanzos as they are now being given legal status in Europe as there are so many in captivity.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Ed Holder said:


> Is the pic O.P Histrionicus..?
> I thought all pums were basically thumbs......
> Ooops...sorry Ziggi
> None the less, Great looking specimen!
> ...


the reason why pums are not considered a thumbnail species even though they are similar in size is because pumillio are obligate egg feeders where as the thumbnails are facultative egg feeders. thumbnail is just short for saying the frogs are in the Qiunquevittatus group. where the pums, histos and sylvaticus are in the histrionicus group aka egg feeder group.


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks for all your help. 

My buddy wants to get it as a tattoo and he asked me what it was called. 

I think they are pretty amazing as well.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

basshummper said:


> the reason why pums are not considered a thumbnail species even though they are similar in size is because pumillio are obligate egg feeders where as the thumbnails are facultative egg feeders. thumbnail is just short for saying the frogs are in the Qiunquevittatus group. where the pums, histos and sylvaticus are in the histrionicus group aka egg feeder group.


Thumbs dont' refer to Quints group, the reason why they are called thumb is becasue they are as small as your thumbnail and pums are considered thumbs last i checked.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

i thought thumbnails were just called ranitomeya now? and quinqs were found to be related to galacts and castaneoticus. and pums are oophaga with histos and lehmanni. 

i saw pictures of these and they were called 'buado' histrionicus. they also kind of look like the 'valley' form. but im no expert!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Thumbs is not a scientific termenology, so it has nothing to do with the genus or species of the frogs, but rather with the size.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> Thumbs dont' refer to Quints group, the reason why they are called thumb is becasue they are as small as your thumbnail and pums are considered thumbs last i checked.


 Thumbs to my knowledge have never included pumilio and have been facultative egg feeders. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed Holder said:


> Is the pic O.P Histrionicus..?
> I thought all pums were basically thumbs......
> Ooops...sorry Ziggi
> None the less, Great looking specimen!
> ...


Indeed Ed...but it is the _size_ of a tinctorius...was my meaning. Vague as I was.

Correct me hear Oh Yey 'Ol Timers of the hobby...but isnt 'thumbnail' a made up 'hobby term'...used initially to describe the now ranitomeya group?

I dont believe it was meant to include Quinqs, Casti and pumilio when it is used.

Anyway, nice Histo

S


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Correct me hear Oh Yey 'Ol Timers of the hobby...but isnt 'thumbnail' a made up 'hobby term'...used initially to describe the now ranitomeya group?
> 
> I dont believe it was meant to include Quinqs, Casti and pumilio when it is used.
> 
> S


That is how I remember it but we can always cast a direct appeal to the repository of all historical information.. aka Chuck Powell..... 

It is/was a totally hobby made up term... 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> Indeed Ed...but it is the _size_ of a tinctorius...was my meaning. Vague as I was.


I had a group of histrionicus for about 7-8 years, they weren't that big maybe auratus sized (maybe smaller) and their call was like a quack


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

Julio said:


> Thumbs is not a scientific termenology, so it has nothing to do with the genus or species of the frogs, but rather with the size.


Thanks Julio, That's the impression i was (am) under.

Ed


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Can an expert explain to me the difference behind the names sylvatica and histrionica. The seem to be used at random for the same frogs.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Julio said:


> Thumbs is not a scientific termenology, so it has nothing to do with the genus or species of the frogs, but rather with the size.


Thumbnail refers to species in the Ranitomeya group. It's simply another name for the non-obligate egg feeders. They happen to have the small size, but species like Quinqs and Pumilio which are small as well, are not included in that group because they do not have the same life history the "thumbnails" do.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

013 said:


> Can an expert explain to me the difference behind the names sylvatica and histrionica. The seem to be used at random for the same frogs.


Histrionica are from Colombia and Sylvatica are from Ecuador and Colombia. Histrionica, as best as I can tell, has cleaner patterns which tend to be made up of circles. Sylvatica, as best as I can tell, has a much rougher patterns (which can have circles included, but they tend to rougher). I believe that the calls are different too.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Quinqs and castis were originally in the same category as imitators and the rest and are still thumbnails. Thumbnails refers to the size.
Pumilio and such are obligate egg feeders. Vents don`t egg feed and are still in the same category. You obviously can`t include galactonotus just because of the new grouping or take out castis or quinqs because of it.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Vents don't feed eggs? Lotters' book would beg to differ. According to them, they will feed nutritive eggs.

But all of that said, the large majority (with a couple exceptions) of Adelphobates, Oophaga, Excitobates, and Ranitomeya were lumped in the Dendrobates genus. And when the changes came about, people were happy because it made more sense to have the groupings as they are now.

Thumbnails doesn't refer to size. If that were true, a great deal more species would be included that are not (i.e. pumilio, vincenti, Minyobates, quinqs, some of the Epipedobates, so on and so forth). Thumbnail refers to those frogs in the Ranitomeya genus just the same as the obligate egg feeders refer to the Oophaga genus.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Right off Patrick`s page who has been in the hobby even longer than I who has been in the hobby 10 X as long as you. You realize, again, you are using scientific designations for HOBBY terms?

Thumbnail Frogs

This group of diminutive frogs is one of the most fascinating and sought after of all the dart frogs. Ranging from barely a half inch long to just under an inch, these tiny frogs are among the more challenging of the dart frogs to keep and breed. However, if kept in the proper environment and under the right conditions, many will breed quite readily, and, if one watches closely, they will show some of the more interesting behaviors of the dart frog family. 

Thumbnail frogs are generally considered to be any small dart frog that is not an eggfeeder, or an Epipedobates. In the wild, thumbnail diversity is at its greatest in eastern Peru, with some species existing in Ecuador, Brazil, and even as far east as French Guiana. At least 20 or so species and forms of this group of frogs are available in the US hobby, but the range that exists in the wild is much larger, and more forms are being discovered regularly. There is a very confusing array of variants, so be prepared for the fact that there is not a lot of accurate information regarding the forms and their relation ships to each other! 

Thumbnail frogs mature very young, with four month old calling males not uncommon in some species. Most thumbnail species are full grown by eight months, and here at least, they seem to live to be six to ten years old regularly.While they are often somewhat shy, when they are involved in courtship, breeding or other “frog business”, they can sometimes be closely observed, and if kept in small groups, territorial skirmishes and fights over egglaying sites can also be watched. Many of the frogs in this group are very territorial so if you wish to keep them in groups, make sure you are well aware of all the possible consequences. 

Many thumbnail species are what are known as “non obligate eggfeeders”, as opposed to the true egg feeders, or “obligate egg feeders”. This means that if left to their own devices, the female frog will feed the tadpoles unfertilized food eggs. In many cases this will be done under the males watch full eye, in fact the male usually orchestrates the feeding, by calling the female to the particular leaf axil or film canister to lay the eggs for the tadpole. 

While many people automatically consider most thumbnail species to be “arboreal”, or tree dwelling, the vast majority of species actually spend most of their time on the ground, or in low lying vegetation, and retreat to trees or low bushes to spend the night, or to escape from threats, including periodic flooding of the forest floor. This is actually pretty similar strategy to most other dart frogs that I am familiar with, so while thumbnail frogs often enjoy low vegetation in their tanks, and will often use this vegetation to lay eggs on, and sleep there, it doesn't seem to be necessary to provide them with more height than the standard 20 gallon tall tank provides, about 18 inches. However if you have a tall tank in your plans, some of these species will be very enjoyable to watch as they climb through the upper reaches of a 30 to 40 inch high tank. 

Many thumbnail species can be very shy, and a good deal of thought should be put into whether these shyer species of frogs are right for you. Additionally of course they are a bit more difficult to care for, and should be considered only after you have some experience with other larger species of dart frogs. On the bright side, there are several species which are not particularly shy at all, and these are generally the best ones to start with. 

Over all this group of frogs is where many hobbyists spend their time and energy, after getting the hang of things with the larger and simpler dart frogs. The great variety and wonderful colors and patterns just reinforce the fascinating behavior and life cycle of these gorgeous rainforest jewels


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Huh, I didn't see where Minyobates or Quinqs or Excitobates were included in that group. It's also kinda interesting that he talks about 20 or so species/varieties occurring in Peru, which, I doubt is by coincidence, the diversity seen in the Ranitomeya group. He also talks about them being in Ecuador, Brazil, Peru and getting as far as French Guiana. Looking at my range map, the Adelphobates species, which include quinqs, are further east than that. Why would he say "as far east as French Guinana" if, by your standards, the quinqs that would be included, occur farther east than those species in French Guiana (which is Ranitomeya ventrimaculata, if you were wondering)?

Thanks for posting that. I'd say that only confirms that thumbnails refer to the genus Ranitomeya.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Also, according to a Summers /McKeon paper on larger egg size in egg feeders suggested to me that vents which lay up to 14 eggs in a clutch and have much smaller eggs than imitators that lay 5 tops, didn`t egg feed but tads would canibalize and eat fertilized eggs laid on the edge of their pools. As far as I know mom doesn`t go and lay an egg or 2 in every tads axil every day or 2 like imitators and the like. I have bred the 2 but never had any egg feeding w/ my vents back in the day. 
Someone correct me if I`m wrong, it`s been a while.

Brazil is castaneoticus. any small frog that is not an egg feeder or epipedobates and "Many thumbnail species are what are known as “non obligate eggfeeders”, " not ALL

Again, your using a recent scientific reclassification try to define an OLD hobby term.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`ll start another thread, I`m not argueing w/ you here.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From the frognet archives posted by a very long time member of the dendrobatid community 

Frognet Private Archives Authentication 

quote "Are you new to frogs or Dendrobatids? In either case the 
quinquivittatus species group is not the place to start " endquote

answer to this question 

quote "New to darts!Ý Which thumbnail frogs requireing less space are hardy,
>prolific, and colorful?"endquote 

by 

quote "Chuck
-- 
Charles Powell, II/American Dendrobatid Group
http://www.hylaweb.com/frogday"endquote


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