# First 4 clutches, bad eggs, no tads. Help?



## FrogFever (Aug 12, 2011)

I've recently been blessed with my first clutches of dart eggs this month. My proven Oyapock pair was the first to lay eggs (6 weeks after acquiring them). Their first 4 eggs turned white in 2 -3 days and were no good. They layed another clutch 8 days later and those too went bad. I thought I was doing the right thing by spraying them down with a methylene blue mix and covering the petri dish and setting them up high on a rack to develop.... But since then I've read that covering the petri dish doesn't yield good results. 
I discovered my last two clutches this weekend. The first was 7 eggs from my young vents. My god are they tiny! I cut the leaf off and put it in a petri dish and partially submerged them in water and placed them in a small plastic drawer with wet paper towels, but I noticed today that a couple have started to cloud over. I kinda assumed they wouldn't be viable since they're first time parents.
This last oyapock clutch I did the same thing with, partially submerged them in water and put them in the small humid drawer, but the eggs are starting to resemble the previous ones that went bad- a marbly whitish gray hue to the eggs instead of being solid black like how they started out.
I've heard of using the tupperware sandwich container method, but the drawer I have them in is basically the same size- small, and with a bit more ventilation.
So I'm wondering where I may be going wrong.... The first couple clutches I'm guessing dried out. But these last two I'm not sure if that's the same case.
When the eggs turn yellowish-white does that mean that they're not fertilized, or have molded over? Or both? And does the cloudy, hazy look (like my vents clutch) indicate mold or infertility? 
The Oyapocks are a proven pair so I know they are capable of good offspring, and the vents are new so I expect them to take a few tries... 
I'm sure this is all easier than I'm making it, but I would just like to learn the difference appearances/outcomes of "bad eggs". 
I'm rotating 2 different supplements nearly every feeding of melanos, hydies, and pinheads...
I'm also using r/o water to spray them with which I thought was appropriate as well, but now I'm unsure. Could this cause some issues?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I can only comment on tincs and this will be from my own observations and/or trial and errors.

-Usually, the first set(s) of eggs go bad. 

-I only used distilled water in the dishes...(i'm sure RO is more than fine)...I did notice worse outcomes if I used my tad tea (spring water + black extract) in the dishes. Just simply distilled worked the best.

-I don't even fill the dish with water half-way up the egg, until they're well developed and are close to coming out.

-I would check water level daily and spray the inside of the lid to maintain moisture. When water was needed, I would slowly squeeze out a drop of water on each egg from a turkey baster. <----probably overkill, but it moistens and fills.

-I kept the eggs (in a dish w/lid) on an open shelf, but not in a well lit place with temps between 68-74f.

-I never touch them or flip them...I let them be.

-hmmm...make sure the petri dishes are very clean prior to use.

Good luck....tommy


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm having similar issues with a pair of tincs. The eggs begin to develop, then turn light in color and die. Sometimes the egg develops to almost tad stage before it dies.

I was told that it might be a Vit A deficiency. So, I've been supplementing with the new Repashy Vit A. 

Here's a link to my thread with some pics and advice from some old timers:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/74657-lorenzo-clutch-watch.html


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

I can't speak for the tincs but for the thumbs I've had the best results as follows:

-First and foremost make sure to leave the eggs in for 24-48hrs in the tank before taking them. I know it's exciting but this makes sure the male had fertilized them.

-Don't use any form of tea for thumbs, generally speaking. Usually any species that is semi arboreal will not deposit tads towards the ground like tincs would. The tea is primarily composed of tannic acid coming from the leaves on the forest floor. Therefore you do not need it. Generally any bromeliad depositing species puts their tads in their so think about the environment they come from. Small amount of water, lots of insects, rainwater would keep a reasonably cleaner(relative) water composition.

-Sometimes I like to wait until I see some development in the eggs before I take them just to make sure. 

-It is very important that the eggs stay in the same arangement in space that they are when laid. Amphibian eggs have a vegetal pole and an animal pole. This means there is two sides to the egg and it's imperative that they stay the way they are so I will sometimes cut a portion of the leaf and I'll cut it so that the leaf has a point on it pointing upwards so I know how to align the eggs.

-You can also scrape the eggs off with a razor blade if you have a steady hand. Still keep in mind of the alignment and then the petri dish works well. 

-Next, don't submerge the eggs in water. The gel is somewhat permeable so you don't want to drown the eggs. I like to keep a cotton ball that I change out in the container that is wet with a solution of water and a tiny bit of mold inhibitor. Change it often.

-Then just wait and don't fuddle with them too much, sometimes less is more. Hope things work better for you and hit me up with questions if you want.


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

forgot to mention:

once you get them to tad stage I've had a 99% success rate raising tads in these square plastic containers I got at a hobby store for a dollar. They're about 3" cubes.

I place a tiny piece of leaf that's been presoaked. It just acts as a hideout which I find lessens stress on the animals. Also a small section of java moss helps keep the water oxygenated. They I feed sera micron at first, then move on to spectrum fish pellets with vitamin A, and switch it up with some flies, springs, or daphnia. 

Once they get front legs I set them up in a rearing container. Oh and don't over feed. Too much protein in the water will make the water really nasty. I feed about once every couple to few days.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

oh yeah! forgot about that! Definitely leave the eggs for a night or two after the find.


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## FrogFever (Aug 12, 2011)

Wow. Thank you all so much. 
After hearing your ideas I have to say that I may have messed up by pulling the eggs out when I first saw them which means that they couldn't have been in there for more than a few hours to a day.
I remember reading a thread a while back where (I believe it was Ed) said that if the eggs aren't fertilized by the male within the first few hours or so of being laid then the jelly surrounding the egg kind of changes consistencies and sperm won't be able to fertilize them anyways. Don't quote me on those exact terms, but that's what I got from it. Whenever Ed says something I tend to listen up. I'm really hoping me pulling them too early is the problem cause that'd be a quick fix!
I feel that it could also be a vit A deficiency because I don't have a supplement that has a good amount of it, but I've definitely been meaning to get some.
Also, I thought I read that vent eggs are more tolerable of being submerged in water than most others. I know I certainly see my adults fully submerged playing in the water all the time. Is this accurate?
And finally, what is daphnia?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

FrogFever said:


> Also, I thought I read that vent eggs are more tolerable of being submerged in water than most others. I know I certainly see my adults fully submerged playing in the water all the time. Is this accurate?


Correct, my Iquitos vents lay their eggs submerged 100% of the time, just a little bit below the water's surface. For this reason I keep them covered in water when I pull them and they develop just fine.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FrogFever said:


> so of being laid then the jelly surrounding the egg kind of changes consistencies and sperm won't be able to fertilize them anyways. Don't quote me on those exact terms, but that's what I got from it. Whenever Ed says something I tend to listen up. I'm really hoping me pulling them too early is the problem cause that'd be a quick fix!


Correct, the initial swelling of the jelly can facilitate sperm mobility but once it is fully expanded it prevents the sperm from moving so there is no value in waiting for the male to fertilize the eggs once they are laid. It either occured then or it won't occur at all. This is just one of those voodoo husbandry things that has been passed around for quite awhile now. 

I've hatched dendrobatid eggs in covered petri dishes, both with the eggs submerged in water or partially submerged as well as in a covered petri dish floating on the water in a covered shoebox with no additional water added to the dish. 

The eggs if fertile and from well supplemented adults will hatch under a multitude of conditions and you just need to figure out which system works for you. Typically start out with the simplest method and work up from that position until you get a good hatching rate. If your getting bad eggs, the first thing I would look at is the adult nutrition. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Nutrition, nutrition, nutrition.

..but also, it's not that unusual for a new mating pairs to take a few tries to "get it right". I don't think any of the tincs I have producing were able produce eggs that became healthy frogs the very first time.


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## Marktman (Sep 27, 2009)

When the eggs go from black to greyish white, DON'T THROW THEM OUT.

Not until they turn fuzzy. I did this with my first clutches. Then I was going on a trip and accidentally left the "bad" eggs. When I returned I had developing tads.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

I just wanted to support that there are many successful routes here, and really just find what works for you. I actually break every single rule listed here all the time, but that's what works for me. 
I would say the three things to focus on would be to give the pairs time, boost up/change your pair's supplements, and lastly play around a little with the water you are spraying the eggs with. I know the first two have already been suggested, just wanted to back those suggestions up. The third point, while I know is probably successful for many, might be worth looking at. While not going as far as making a strong tea, you may try soaking a leaf in the ro water for an hour or two before using it. 

As far as pulling eggs, in most cases I think if you pull them at night after the lights have gone out for awhile, you should be safe. That's the protocol I use so that I don't have to think about it too much.

And just in case anyone is wondering, here are a couple of the bigger rules I break... I always keep my frog eggs (any species) in a cup completely submerged with 3 inches of water over them. That way I don't have to monitor them as much, and the larger volume of clean water seems to do them some good. And I think I am always flipping the eggs when I collect them, as I use a plastic spoon or my fingers to collect the eggs. They always re-orient themselves properly. Again, I don't think anything suggested here is wrong, as it works for that person and it is what they are comfortable with.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Once the eggs have been deposited it doesn't matter when they are pulled. The swelling of the egg jelly is going to prevent any potential fertilization. They can be pulled during the day or night, since it doesn't matter.... 

Only fertile eggs will reorient themselves..... 

Ed


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

Well, my point was that if you collect any eggs at night, you don't really have to watch the timing. Even if they were laid very late in the day. I'm not arguing the biology here, I was just making a point for the original poster and others, that this is a way to alleviate any concerns. As a side note, and one that I didn't mention, I've also interrupted frogs that were still in the process of breeding. By going in at night, you almost always alleviate this problem. 

As far as the reorienting of the eggs are concerned...I thought we only wanted the fertile ones anyway...

I have to say, and I'm probably going to be attacked for this, but I find your follow up post a bit nitpicky in this case


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Manuran said:


> Well, my point was that if you collect any eggs at night, you don't really have to watch the timing. Even if they were laid very late in the day. I'm not arguing the biology here, I was just making a point for the original poster and others, that this is a way to alleviate any concerns. As a side note, and one that I didn't mention, I've also interrupted frogs that were still in the process of breeding. By going in at night, you almost always alleviate this problem.


If you had included that point instead of presenting it in a manner that was supportive of voodoo husbandry practices I wouldn't have needed to clarify it.... 



Manuran said:


> As far as the reorienting of the eggs are concerned...I thought we only wanted the fertile ones anyway...


And this is response is important how? You posted that you remove the eggs and don't care about thier orientation... I supplied the extra data as to why it isn't a big deal (which you found nit picky).... 



Manuran said:


> I have to say, and I'm probably going to be attacked for this, but I find your follow up post a bit nitpicky in this case


And I found your response whiny so I guess we're even. 

Have fun... 

Ed


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

There is only 1 thing that puzzles me. It being, how my original statement (prior to clarification) about pulling the eggs could be thought of as voodoo husbandry practices that you needed to clarify. The only question about timing was how long to wait before pulling the eggs. So, I thought I posted a simple practical answer. It would be nice to be able to post and if there are further questions, to then be asked. Certainly it is a more generous method than automatically dismissing people. If my frank statements equate me to being a whiner than so be it. The intention wasn't to hurt, but to make a point. 


To the original poster, sorry for the hijack.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

My first clutches would develop and then die; I switched from RO to spring water and started having successful hatches. I have a pair of tri-colors that lay weekly when they're ready; sometimes over 15 eggs at a time, have only hatched one frog. It just takes time for some frogs.
Brian


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Manuran said:


> There is only 1 thing that puzzles me. It being, how my original statement (prior to clarification) about pulling the eggs could be thought of as voodoo husbandry practices that you needed to clarify. The only question about timing was how long to wait before pulling the eggs. So, I thought I posted a simple practical answer. It would be nice to be able to post and if there are further questions, to then be asked. Certainly it is a more generous method than automatically dismissing people. If my frank statements equate me to being a whiner than so be it. The intention wasn't to hurt, but to make a point.
> 
> 
> To the original poster, sorry for the hijack.


If you look at the wide variety of suggestions on how long to leave the eggs in the enclosure to allow for "fertilization" we see suggestions that can be as long as leaving them in for several days..... There are even suggestions that the "males come back" after the females leave and fertilize the eggs" so any suggestion of a time frame without a correction/reason lends weight to that interpretation by people looking at multiple threads. We know that because of how the jelly behaves once hydrated that the eggs cannot be fertilized once the jelly hydrates (and during hydration, it can prevent sperm added to the surface from penetrating the jelly)... 
Leaving it until after the frogs bed down is a very reasonable method to avoid disturbing the frogs. 

That is why it looked like it could have been more voodoo husbandry.... 

Back to the regularly schedule broadcast


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BR5 said:


> My first clutches would develop and then die; I switched from RO to spring water and started having successful hatches. I have a pair of tri-colors that lay weekly when they're ready; sometimes over 15 eggs at a time, have only hatched one frog. It just takes time for some frogs.
> Brian


In general, we should not expect to see a change in the success between RO and "spring" water (which is often tap water that has been run through carbon and bottled). It is much more important to have adults that have been properly supplemented. A early unpublished study done by the Baltimore Zoo, they were able to link all of the issues with development and surivial back to adults that needed better supplementation... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

As long as we're clearing the air here, I don't know how fertilization happens with frogs. There, I said it. I'm a noob 

I've heard that the male lays down sperm and the female lays eggs on top of it. I've heard that the female lays eggs and then male lays sperm on top. 

I watched a pair of Sips mating again, and again, on a petri dish with no cover and I still couldn't figure it out. I noticed the male doing a weird little circle dance around the dish. What was that? I did enjoy watching him mash the eggs around with his feet. What was he doing there?

Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> As long as we're clearing the air here, I don't know how fertilization happens with frogs. There, I said it. I'm a noob
> 
> I've heard that the male lays down sperm and the female lays eggs on top of it. I've heard that the female lays eggs and then male lays sperm on top.
> 
> ...


See JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie (the abstract describes it well...) the link works.. If I remember correctly it is also descrobed in Zimmerman, Terrarium Animals, Breeding, Care, Maitenance, TFH Publications..... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Aaah ok, so the male deposits sperm first. I guess that's what the little dance is about. Could only see the first couple of paragraphs though. Very interesting. Thanks Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Typically it occurs when the male wets down the surface for the egg deposition. This results in the sperm being able to penetrate the jelly as soon as it is laid and before it hydrates to the point that the sperm can't penetrate it. 

Ed


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

Oh I saw you mentioned something about Vitamin A and supplementation. First thing about Vitamin A is that you can oversupplement it and it is actually not present in a lot of supplements because of this. I personally incorporate it in their diet by dusting with a vitamin A supplement/color enhancer once every week or two. As long as the parents are healthy in that sense I generally find the offspring will be fine. I do use spectrum pellets with Vitamin A for the tads and I find it works really well. I feed about every other day and dust about 3 times a week. 

As far as that other guy talking about soaking the eggs in water and not caring about the alignment of the eggs.... I'd probably disregard that information. As they say A broken clock is right twice a day. Different things work for different people, even when they disregard the biology of the scenario in some cases, though you'll always have the best luck when trying to replicate nature as best as possible. Check this page out for an illustration Frog Embryology 

Hope all the good info helped you out with raising your frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mattolsen said:


> Oh I saw you mentioned something about Vitamin A and supplementation. First thing about Vitamin A is that you can oversupplement it and it is actually not present in a lot of supplements because of this. I personally incorporate it in their diet by dusting with a vitamin A supplement/color enhancer once every week or two. As long as the parents are healthy in that sense I generally find the offspring will be fine. I do use spectrum pellets with Vitamin A for the tads and I find it works really well. I feed about every other day and dust about 3 times a week.
> 
> As far as that other guy talking about soaking the eggs in water and not caring about the alignment of the eggs.... I'd probably disregard that information. As they say A broken clock is right twice a day. Different things work for different people, even when they disregard the biology of the scenario in some cases, though you'll always have the best luck when trying to replicate nature as best as possible. Check this page out for an illustration Frog Embryology
> 
> Hope all the good info helped you out with raising your frogs.


Matt,

While it is possible to oversupplement vitamin A in the form of retinoids (not beta carotene), the amount that is found in some products like Repashy Calcium plus, is in the range that they should be getting. While we don't have a RDA for the frogs, there isn't any indication that the frogs deviate significantly in this respect from animals that have had an RDA established for them (these levels tend to be highly conserved across multiple taxa). 

Ed


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

I have no intention that this sound inflammatory, and do not wish to derail this thread, but this statement I feel needs to be addressed,

mattolsen wrote:
"As far as that other guy talking about soaking the eggs in water and not caring about the alignment of the eggs.... I'd probably disregard that information. As they say A broken clock is right twice a day. Different things work for different people, even when they disregard the biology of the scenario in some cases, though you'll always have the best luck when trying to replicate nature as best as possible. Check this page out for an illustration Frog Embryology"

That other guy you referred to is Charles Nishihira. I do not know how it got to be the case that a man with 40 years experience keeping dart frogs is generous enough to post some of his insights and opinions - that are based on decades of hands on experience-on a public forum - only to have it suggested that they be disregarded as if they were mere quackery. There are several threads of where did the old timers go?, why do they not post? type of subjects - I think this is a good example of why many of them don't post. Matt, you said it "different things work for different people.." so why suggest that we disregard the the experience and practice of one who has been extremely successful. I for one have learned a tonne of valuable insights from that broken clock.

There is still plenty to learn, and sometimes some of the most unconventional ideas and practices yield the best results. 

to the OP, good luck with your eggs!

mark


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for this Mark. I don't think it helps when anyone here acts dogmatically (no matter how many papers they have read personally). What we are after is PRACTICAL information that will help us all to be better breeders (whether it is anecdotal or published). I have produced probably thousands of dart frogs in 15 years, but still feel there is a great deal to learn and defending my own methods against other's views won't make me a better breeder.

The one true fact I KNOW is critical in breeding I call "good feeding is good breeding". I do everything I can to produce a lot of fruitflies and feed my young frogs every day and my adults every other day. I supplement every feeding. And I have very good breeding.

Thanks again, Richard.



MPepper said:


> I have no intention that this sound inflammatory, and do not wish to derail this thread, but this statement I feel needs to be addressed,
> 
> mattolsen wrote:
> "As far as that other guy talking about soaking the eggs in water and not caring about the alignment of the eggs.... I'd probably disregard that information. As they say A broken clock is right twice a day. Different things work for different people, even when they disregard the biology of the scenario in some cases, though you'll always have the best luck when trying to replicate nature as best as possible. Check this page out for an illustration Frog Embryology"
> ...


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## FrogFever (Aug 12, 2011)

Wow. I had no idea this thread has been going so strong. I appreciate everyone's ideas. It is all of value to me.
Just an update:
My Oyapock pair has averaged 5 eggs every 7 days for the last 6 weeks. Out of the 25 eggs that have had a chance to develop only 3 have made it to tadpoles. Although that percentage seems very small, the good news is that those 3 are my very first. 
I've heard over and over again that Oyapocks can be finicky. The 3 that made it to tadpoles I've raised the same way that I did every other one that molded over or failed...
I've been putting the (half submerged) eggs in an uncovered petri dish inside of a damp/wet sandwich container. I put the lid on rather tightly. That container is also inside a (not air-tight) plastic drawer system that is wet/damp at about 70-75 degrees. I've been switching between RO water, treated frog safe water, and also water with methylene blue. Not sure if there's been any difference made. 
I just wish I new the trick to getting more of them to make it. Oh well. Only time will tell.


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## FrogFever (Aug 12, 2011)

And the adults are supplemented with a multivitamin and calcium on rotation at every feeding.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Grats on the tads! 

I wonder if this is giving you any problems?



> I've been putting the (half submerged) eggs in an uncovered petri dish inside of a damp/wet sandwich container. *I put the lid on rather tightly*.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I had very patchy results with my D. tinctorius when using Herptivite and Rep-cal. Since moving over to Repashy Calcium plus, I haven't had many issues regarding to egg clutches.

The key to raising good Oyapock froglets (which are the smallest I have in my collection) is to feed the tadpoles as much as they can take. I feed on human-grade Spirulina every week and bi-weekly water changes. Still, they come out needing very runty wingless melanogasters or springtails.

Good luck with them, Richard.


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## FrogFever (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks. It sounds like its time to upgrade my supplements then.
Merry christmas to all. I hope everyone gets all the frog supplies they wanted, and then some!


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## FrogFever (Aug 12, 2011)

Upon reading the Lorenzo clutch watch thread I found a couple more things I'm going to try. 
1. Not using treated tap water. I'll try R.O. for now until I get some spring water. 
2. Tidy up the petri dish of debris.
3. Remove all bad/moldy eggs.

I'll update in a week or so.


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