# Turface as Substrate and drainage layer



## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2020)

I've been doing research on how to setup a simple long term enclosure for my new Azureus dart frog with my daughter this fall and am looking into substrate options that are long lasting and low maintenance and can house microfauna and it seems like clay based ones will be a good option. I am planning on using a matala filter for the majority of my drainage layer with a cutout in one corner for a small pond and easy siphon area. Can the turface be used in the pond area as well as the top substrate layer? Can i fill in a half inch gap around the matala filter with turface to give the tank a more natural appearance from the outside? Will it break down too much if constantly submerged or be fine. Sorry for all the questions, this is my first post here, let me know if I did something wrong. If the turface isn't good being constantly underwater or wicks too much even from the edges and pond area only to the main area of turface, would aquarium gravel be good for the pond and edges, with turface as the top layer on top of the matala mat? I plan on covering the majority of the turface with leaf litter and possibly trying to add some live moss as well in a corner. HOw thick do you normally make the turface substrate?


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Can the turface be used in the pond area as well as the top substrate layer?


Yes. As leaf litter decomposes, the pure turface will eventually become more like a mixed soil. As long as your water table sits below the top of the matala, it should be ok (not too moist). 



> Can i fill in a half inch gap around the matala filter with turface to give the tank a more natural appearance from the outside?


The problem here is that water can climb up the turface via capillary action and make you entire vivarium overly moist. I do something like what you described, but I use pea gravel- which has larger gaps, and I work to keep the leaf litter from "soiling" the gravel. And I only do it on the front pane of glass. Another option is to cover the outside with black contact paper. I too hate seeing the false bottom apparatus from the intended viewing angle. 



> Will it break down too much if constantly submerged or be fine.


Turface will last a very long time submerged. 



> How thick do you normally make the turface substrate?


When I've used it as a substrate, I only use 0.5-1 inch. You can also make little pockets of ABG to help get plants started.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

[email protected] said:


> I am planning on using a matala filter for the majority of my drainage layer with a cutout in one corner for a small pond and easy siphon area.


FWIW, I've tried this in two different vivs and hated it both times; in one, I lost frogs. It sounded like a good idea at the time I built them, but I filled them up with gravel after a few months. 

It doesn't work any better than setting a small tube in a corner of the viv that you can drop a siphon tube down into, and are much harder to design. They also use up valuable floor space that the frog can actually use.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

[email protected] said:


> I've been doing research on how to setup a simple long term enclosure for my new Azureus dart frog with my daughter this fall and am looking into substrate options that are long lasting and low maintenance and can house microfauna and it seems like clay based ones will be a good option. I am planning on using a matala filter for the majority of my drainage layer with a cutout in one corner for a small pond and easy siphon area. Can the turface be used in the pond area as well as the top substrate layer? Can i fill in a half inch gap around the matala filter with turface to give the tank a more natural appearance from the outside? Will it break down too much if constantly submerged or be fine. Sorry for all the questions, this is my first post here, let me know if I did something wrong. If the turface isn't good being constantly underwater or wicks too much even from the edges and pond area only to the main area of turface, would aquarium gravel be good for the pond and edges, with turface as the top layer on top of the matala mat? I plan on covering the majority of the turface with leaf litter and possibly trying to add some live moss as well in a corner. HOw thick do you normally make the turface substrate?


Leaving a corner for a pond complicates your build a great deal. Turface (calcined clay) works great and won't break down. Some folks (myself included) use it in aquariums where it is constantly submerged. When its brand new its dusty but after being wet that is not an issue.

However, having recently done some tests on the subject I found that it can wick water when brand new. This issue goes away over time if the water level is low enough, BUT if you have a water level high enough to make a pond relevant then unless your turface 'substrate' portion is very deep (more then say 4 or 5 inches above the water table) it will never stop wicking.

Generally you want at least 2 inches of substrate for proper plant rooting. It can be done in as little as an inch but 2 inches is better. There is no maximum. You can put in 10+ inches of substrate if you want to.

Anyway my advice mirrors Socratic Monologue in that I would recommend not doing the pond. The best solution is to drill your viv and install bulkhead so it gravity drains into a resevoir. It can be intimidating to drill glass if you have never done it but its actually really easy and pretty cheap. A drill bit will run you 10 dollars or less from amazon. Anyway if you don't want to do that then the pvc tube with a removable cap is your next best option for a siphon. Just never purposely add water to the substrate, just rely on misting. So long as you keep humidity in 60-80% range and have a decent amount of plants you will probably never need to siphon water anyway.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

minorhero said:


> Anyway my advice mirrors Socratic Monologue in that I would recommend not doing the pond. The best solution is to drill your viv and install bulkhead so it gravity drains into a resevoir. It can be intimidating to drill glass if you have never done it but its actually really easy and pretty cheap. A drill bit will run you 10 dollars or less from amazon. Anyway if you don't want to do that then the pvc tube with a removable cap is your next best option for a siphon. Just never purposely add water to the substrate, just rely on misting. So long as you keep humidity in 60-80% range and have a decent amount of plants you will probably never need to siphon water anyway.


I agree with most of this kind of, but would clarify: drilling for drainage is easy (if you are handy) and a little more convenient, but unnecessary for one viv. I drain most of mine manually, and it's no big deal.

I understand people use a rigid pipe with a cap, but I use 5/16 ID vinyl tubing in smaller vivs, and it is big enough to drop a 1/4 OD 'airline' tube into, and it is basically invisible, and frogs cannot get down it even without a cap that could be forgotten or knocked off.

I do manually water some plants at the roots -- plants that like moist feet but don't like their leaves misted. 

I keep humidity in that range and have mucho plants and still drain vivs every month or two. If I didn't, I would go out of my way to increase misting until I did; leaching crap out of captive volumes of soil that receive constant additions of organics and FF dust is beneficial, I think.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I agree with most of this kind of, but would clarify: drilling for drainage is easy (if you are handy) and a little more convenient, but unnecessary for one viv. I drain most of mine manually, and it's no big deal.
> 
> I understand people use a rigid pipe with a cap, but I use 5/16 ID vinyl tubing in smaller vivs, and it is big enough to drop a 1/4 OD 'airline' tube into, and it is basically invisible, and frogs cannot get down it even without a cap that could be forgotten or knocked off.
> 
> ...


So far not at all. I have a reservoir and and my tank drains to it (insitu tank with a sloped bottom) but nothing has actually made it to the reservoir. I mist for 40 seconds once a day through two double T mistking nozzles. But so far all it does is moisten the substrate. The plants suck it back up. No one has wet feet though. If I poured water into the viv outside of the misting I'm sure that wouldn't be the case.


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2020)

Do you put any substrate barrier between the matala and the turface? Is the issue with ponds that darts aren't natural swimmers or fighting in multi frog tanks?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

[email protected] said:


> Is the issue with ponds that darts aren't natural swimmers or fighting in multi frog tanks?


Both. They're not natural swimmers and they can attempt to drown one another when fighting


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2020)

So with only one frog the risk of fighting is gone, but the inability to swim still makes it too big of a risk to be worth the visual benfit. Here's a link to a livestream of my current temporary 12x12x18 setup if anyone is interested.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I agree with most of this kind of, but would clarify: drilling for drainage is easy (if you are handy) and a little more convenient, but unnecessary for one viv. I drain most of mine manually, and it's no big deal.
> 
> I understand people use a rigid pipe with a cap, but I use 5/16 ID vinyl tubing in smaller vivs, and it is big enough to drop a 1/4 OD 'airline' tube into, and it is basically invisible, and frogs cannot get down it even without a cap that could be forgotten or knocked off.
> 
> ...


I am very much interested in this setup. We now have Leca expanded clay pebbles there and they wick too much moisture up to the the above layer. Also, i like the turface (same as seramis?) layer on thet with some bark and of course leaves layer on top. 

But we heat the tank in wintertime with a heatmat from underneath. And this needs a bit of water (1cm or so) down in the tank to absorbe the heat and not let the glass crack. Now we have a small pump there to keep it moving (just horizontally) to keep it from standing still and rotting.... 

Does it not start to smell if you have some water there down in the tank without movement? Rotting procedures etc?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Harmenjan said:


> Does it not start to smell if you have some water there down in the tank without movement? Rotting procedures etc?


No. I don't know that movement in a body of water changes whether or how things in it decompose, anyway, but I have experienced no off smells in any of my vivs.

Also, reptile keepers use heat mats against dry glass regularly with no cracking issues.


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