# Jewel orchids--ranked by ease



## Groundhog

Okay guys, I still do not understand keeping jewel orchids with pdfs, but then again, I do not keep pdfs...

I seek your feedback on jewel orchids ranked by ease/durability (please try to separate these qualities from beauty--it's like if I asked "who is the better potential mate, the ex girl-scout or the supermodel/diva?" I did not ask who is hotter...) I ask this because, quite frankly, jewels tend to cost a bit more than many other vivarium plants, and some of us don't have 10, 12 or 15 bucks to play with. Also, it more responsible to get plants that will live in our specific conditions. 

My list (bear in mind my lizard/ TF tank runs warmer than any pdf tank)

1) _Ludisia discolor_ --can get rampant
2) _Anoectochilus burmannicum_ (=chapaensis)--also gets big
3) _An. formosanus or roxburgii_ over any Macodes
4) _Goodyera schlectendaliana_ (easier than hispida, I have no idea why--it is supposedly a cooler grower)
5) _Macodes petola_

*I have not tried _Ludisia_ 'nigrescens' in a viv; I am told I should!
**I find _Goodyera hispida, Dossinia marmorata _and _Macodes lowii _to be finicky (I know this may seem odd for the Goodyera). 

Thanks,

G


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## Dendro Dave

I've killed every jewel orchid I had...I'm about to try again. I just ordered 2 macodes petola last night.

I found some growing info that might be helpful... Mainly suggesting resting the orchid on top of the substrate, or mostly so instead of burying it. Which I'd never heard before. 

propogation of dossinia marmorata - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !

Jewel Orchids with Brown leaves - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !


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## Enlightened Rogue

Macodes Petola is the only one I have.
I have one in a viv. for about 5 years now.
It`s probably about 6-7 inches tall.
I do absolutly nothing to this plant and it just grows and grows.
When it gets too tall I just cut it and stick the cutting in another tank and it grows.
Believe me, it must be easy to care for if I haven`t killed it yet.

Now, if I can just get some moss to grow.

John


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## Ulisesfrb

Macodes Petola and Indra's Web are the only two I've used. They've been quite easy, just as stated by John, they grow and grow. I planted them in cork tubes with sphagnum moss as the substrate. I've take so many cuttings from them that I've lost count. I've had them for about a year and a half.


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## fleshfrombone

I'm not sure exactly what "species" of jewel orchid I have is but I literally tossed it in a ten gallon tank and it almost took over.


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## Groundhog

Dave:

That's our own Corey to the rescue! She's quite right; jewel orchids are actually not true terrestrials; rather, they are considered "humus epiphytes," which means they ramble on top of leaf litter and/or moss-covered rocks or fallen logs. They send their fleshy roots sideways, not down.

In my experience, they need a very well-drained substrate and should be grown a bit drier in winter. 

I hope Harry chimes in on this one!


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## frogparty

Ryan, that jewel is a Goodyera. forget the species though


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## fleshfrombone

frogparty said:


> Ryan, that jewel is a Goodyera. forget the species though


Sweet, need a piece?


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## CREEPlNG_DEATH

What about growing them in a net pot with hydroton and no soil on a G/S background? And what type of lighting do they need?


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## MichelleSG

I think that would work for them with the hydroton. They don't need a lot of light but they can handle it just fine. I have a macodes ludiscia cross of some sort and it was in a small pot with sphagnum moss around it's roots. I pulled it out of the pot and propped it in between 2 replica rocks in my viv, 1 in each viv actually. It's gets misted a few times a day with everything else. It gets full light and the vivs are running a bit hot right now, 77 or so. Grows really well.
My friend has nigriscens (sp?) in a little pot on his porch (shaded). And it's growing like nuts. Keep in mind the is Texas and outside right now is like one really big wet humid hot ass vivarium. 90s with 85% humidity. Those jewels love it.


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## CREEPlNG_DEATH

Groundhog said:


> Dave:
> 
> That's our own Corey to the rescue! She's quite right; jewel orchids are actually not true terrestrials; rather, they are considered "humus epiphytes," which means they ramble on top of leaf litter and/or moss-covered rocks or fallen logs. They send their fleshy roots sideways, not down.
> 
> In my experience, they need a very well-drained substrate and should be grown a bit drier in winter.
> 
> I hope Harry chimes in on this one!


So can they be pinned to a background like other epiphytes and grown that way? Because I have one I just received but I put it in a net pot with coco fiber was this a bad idea?

Thank's Matt


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## MichelleSG

Pull the coco fiber, replace with sphagnum moss. The coco fiber holds too much moisture. Treat them like you would a common orchid and you'll do well.


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## Groundhog

CREEPlNG_DEATH said:


> So can they be pinned to a background like other epiphytes and grown that way?


NO!!! And I am baffled that you gleaned this from what I wrote...

Let me clarify this:

The true Jewel Orchids (Anoectochilus, Dossinia, Goodyera, Ludisia and Macodes sp. ) are never TWIG epiphytes. In nature, they may grow:

--in leaf litter as "humus epiphytes"--this means they send their fleshy roots sideways as they spread by rhizomes. A "humus epiphyte" is not a true terrestrial, but it is also NOT an airplant--they do not and can not grow on elevated branches;
--on fallen and/or rotting logs;
--in rock crevices or fissures;
--on moss-covered rocks (where they may be smaller)

The point was that they are usually not "true" terrestrials, growing in soil (although it is true that Ludisia adapts to friable potting soil). There are maybe a 100(?) better choices for mounting that are available to you. 

I am no expert, but jewel orchids need:

--Not too-bright light, they cannot take direct sun;
--a well-draining substrate, usually sphagnum moss pr sphag with orchid bark or coco husks--but not coco fiber, Michele is right);
--more moisture in the summer, keep em barely moist in winter. 
--mild applications of food when in growth (Dynagro in a frog tank)

Please consult Internet Orchid Species Photo Encyclopedia

Read about them!

Peace,

G


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## fleshfrombone

Hmmm, mine is growing directly on top of soil so I'm not too sure about that.


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## NathanB

Its also important to realize that Jewel Orchids come from all over and you cant really say they need all the same care. I current that them growing very wet in a well-draining substrate for a year and a half now. 


> Not too-bright light, they cannot take direct sun


 this is not an issue in vivs as we dont use suns as light bulbs. I find they like bright light.


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## Groundhog

FFB:

Doesn't yours send its rhizomes sideways, on top of the substrate? The point I was making is not to try to grow them as true epiphytes.

Bussard:

I was only mentioning general care tips, even or out of a terrarium. We all know that even bright bulbs are no match for the sun. By your measure, African violets would also enjoy "bright" light--but one would not grow them in an unobstructed west or south window. Same with jewels. 

I suggest that the real imprtant cultural difference between the various jewels is temperature--that's where the regional differences matter.


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## Linus_Cello

Though technically not a "jewel orchid" some of the Paph maudiaes (lady slipper orchids) have mottled leaves that are quite attractive.

If you have success with Ludisia discolor, you may want to try the "alba" form of it.

There are a few intergeneric "jewel orchids" (e.g. cross breeding Anoectochilus with Goodyera, etc); Hoosier Orchids was doing a lot of that breeding before they folded a few years ago. I think they were crossbreeding some sarcoglottis (one of my favorites) to bring down the size. The natural species may be too big for a 10-15 gallon palladrium/terrarium.


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## Dendro Dave

I've actually found quite a few plants can be grown as epiphytes even if they don't do so naturally. My guess that many jewel orchids because of their ability to grow pretty much right on top of the soil and send just roots down probably would do quite well as epiphytes under the right substrate, moisture and lighting conditions.


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## randa4

Yup, I am the friend, and here in Texas the Jewels love it! All of my future viv plants grow on my porch in the shade, and they love the wet & humid environment. There is a very good grower on eBay now that has more than a (15) species of Jewel Orchids available, and sells for a good price (usually no more than $8.95 per plant); very well grown. All are shipped in sphagnum, and no other media is needed. Good shipping and beautiful plants (Imperial_Exotics). These are good plants!
__________________________________________________________
Mike in Helotes


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## littlefrog

If you can find the alba form of Ludisia discolor... It is uncommon right now, and I find it much harder to grow than the colored forms. It also tends to go dormant in the winter, at least in the greenhouse, whereas the colored ones do not (as much).

There are a lot of orchids called 'jewel orchids', either fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how confused you want to get. The most common jewels tend to grow in a vine-like fashion, rambling all over the place. They are easy to root from stem nodes, any division that has at least one node can root. This makes them pretty easy to propagate. Most orchids don't grow from 'cuttings', but jewels do. They also root from the stem nodes anywhere that a node touches the right kind of substrate. If the surrounding air is humid enough, they will root right into the air, although those roots never get very long.

Right now the easiest jewel orchids to find (in the USA) are Ludisia (Haemaria) discolor varieties, due to their ease of propagation. Any ludisia variety will grow excellently in a tank if you keep the slugs away. The 'nigrescens' variety has dark leaves with little pattern. It grows smaller than the 'nominal' variety (my name for it), which has brightly patterned leaves. Evidently in some countries they think the nigrescens is the normal form and our common one is rare. The nigrescens variety has a clone which was given an award from the American Orchid Society ("Ambrosia") because it was pleasantly scented, a rarity for jewel orchids. Most of the nigrescens you see offered for sale are offspring of this clone, and in my experience a fair percentage of these are pleasantly scented as well. 

Macodes petola is my all time favorite vivarium orchid. For me, it is almost impossible to grow outside a viviarium. They can be slow to get started in a viv, but once established in a tank it is an attractive weed and needs to be pruned a few times a year. It is produced at wholesale in fair quantity and is usually available. I propagate it too, and always try to have a few available.

There are other jewel species, but they can be tricky to find and are even harder to find now that Hoosier Orchids has gone out of business. They have left a void that hasn't been properly filled yet. Hoosier was also responsible for the majority (perhaps all?) of the hybrids in this group. The hybrids are increasingly hard to find, as well. If you can find the hybrids, they should grow as easily as Ludisia discolor (or easier), if they have discolor as a parent. Anoectochilus are in my hands tricky to grow, and the hybrids are easier but still not bulletproof. Goodyera are awesome, but I've never had too much luck except with one species, Goodyera schlechtendaliana (might not be spelled right, my German is rusty).

Try a jewel orchid today! *grin*

Rob


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## littlefrog

randa4 said:


> Yup, I am the friend, and here in Texas the Jewels love it! All of my future viv plants grow on my porch in the shade, and they love the wet & humid environment. There is a very good grower on eBay now that has more than a (15) species of Jewel Orchids available, and sells for a good price (usually no more than $8.95 per plant); very well grown. All are shipped in sphagnum, and no other media is needed. Good shipping and beautiful plants (Imperial_Exotics). These are good plants!
> __________________________________________________________
> Mike in Helotes


I did not know about this vendor... I don't normally buy from E-Bay, but maybe I will have to check this out.

Rob


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## Dendro Dave

littlefrog said:


> I did not know about this vendor... I don't normally buy from E-Bay, but maybe I will have to check this out.
> 
> Rob


Ya you supply Josh'sfrogs orchids right? I just got some of your macodes petola...btw I didn't quite get the shipping a rock comment you made on my order lol...what was that about?

Anyways I saw the ebay seller mentioned I'm thinking of picking up some more jewels from them, but yours came in really good shape and were some of the larger jewels I've gotten the few times I've ordered them.


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## MichelleSG

I have some of the jewels from that eBay vendor and they are really lovely plants. She's a dart breeder too, it's just not advertised.

I have yet to get any from Rob because Josh's Frogs still insists their website works on ipads and iPhones. It doesn't.


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## NathanB

I have ordered from both. Robs orchids have been larger for me. I hope you guys dont beat me to the ebay ones. There are 4-5 species i need


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## Dendro Dave

bussardnr said:


> I have ordered from both. Robs orchids have been larger for me. I hope you guys dont beat me to the ebay ones. There are 4-5 species i need


Crap I better make a decision fast about my order


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## Imperial_Aquatics

Personally I find all of the jewel orchids easy to keep. 

As with anything, it is only a matter of making sure you know what conditions they need. As a generality, the conditions required for jewel orchids is pretty much the same for all of them. Almost all species come from roughly the same region, and climate and conditions are pretty similar throughout their entire range of habitat. China, Laos, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, India, Solomons, Hawaii........

All are pretty humid conditions, and jewels are found in pretty much the same environmental conditions everywhere they are found. Usually among leaf litter, rotting logs, etc. 

In a terrarium type setting they practically explode. I use coco soil, mixed with a medium shredded bark, sand, and charcoal. 

Humidity is upwards of 85% or higher. 

temps around 80.

they like shade, but terrarium lights seem to be just fine. 

My personal favorites are Anoectochilus, but I gotta say there are some great hybrids made with Macodes Sanderiana. I have Sanderiana x Ludisia Discolor Alba crosses and they look amazing. 



Steve


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## Imperial_Aquatics

FYI, I was just reading through this thread and see an eBay dealer mentioned, to be perfectly transparent here, I'm half of that team. The woman who also raises dart frogs, but not advertised is my wife of 16 years 

Our company is split up among Imperial Discus, Imperial Aquatics and Imperial Exotics.

I'd be more than happy to field any questions about the plants, or availability or species for that matter. 

We have over 30 species of Jewels, so far only 15 species have been made available. Others will be available over the next few months. We have a number of imported species from Thailand and Singapore, several only have numbers for identification as of yet, although a number of them are clearly Anoectochilus sp.


Steve


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## Dendro Dave

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> FYI, I was just reading through this thread and see an eBay dealer mentioned, to be perfectly transparent here, I'm half of that team. The woman who also raises dart frogs, but not advertised is my wife of 16 years
> 
> Our company is split up among Imperial Discus, Imperial Aquatics and Imperial Exotics.
> 
> I'd be more than happy to field any questions about the plants, or availability or species for that matter.
> 
> We have over 30 species of Jewels, so far only 15 species have been made available. Others will be available over the next few months. We have a number of imported species from Thailand and Singapore, several only have numbers for identification as of yet, although a number of them are clearly Anoectochilus sp.
> 
> 
> Steve


I don't suppose we could get you to post some pics of the yet undisclosed species? I'm thinking of placing an order soon but man I'd kick myself if I ordered then you all come out with several I like even more but I'm out of cash at that point...or I wait and don't see anything I want more then already listed but have it turn out they were all gone and I missed out completely. I realize that may be asking a lot...but I hope you don't mind especially since I'll totally understand if the answer is no


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## Imperial_Aquatics

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't suppose we could get you to post some pics of the yet undisclosed species? I'm thinking of placing an order soon but man I'd kick myself if I ordered then you all come out with several I like even more but I'm out of cash at that point...or I wait and don't see anything I want more then already listed but have it turn out they were all gone and I missed out completely. I realize that may be asking a lot...but I hope you don't mind especially since I'll totally understand if the answer is no



I wouldn't worry too much about me being out of them. That much I can assure you. 

Pics of the new species will be released as they are identified.


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## Dendro Dave

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about me being out of them. That much I can assure you.
> 
> Pics of the new species will be released as they are identified.


Cool cool...do any of the new species really express the iridescent veining more then most of the others, or in unique colors? Thats really my favorite feature of these orchids, but as I've only seen a few species in person and pics don't always do them justice I'm having difficulty picking the ones that best express that feature and/or do so in unique or less typical colors then the straight gold. I know some are more red at least. Can you enlighten us on which ones best experess the iridescent qualities and also which do so in different colors?


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## Imperial_Aquatics

A. Chapaensis and Reinwardtii express some really nice red colors in mature plants. 

For that matter Formosanus are really nice as well. 

Ludisia Discolor Dawsoniana are pretty sharp, I like the deep red coloration in them. 

Dossinia marmorata var. dayii is also pretty outstanding.

The hard part about the question, is so many of the Genus Anoectochilus are pretty outstanding looking plants. 

certain hybrids are flat out amazing. Some of the crosses obtained using Macodes Sanderiana, and Dossinia are just spectacular. We'll have some Anoectochilus crosses available soon, Anoectochilus x Anoectochilus, which are stunning colors.


EDIT:

FYI, I'd really don't wish to hijack this thread, as it's a relevant question for people trying to decide about jewels, and needing info about them. 
so please just pm me for further info.

Cheers!!





Dendro Dave said:


> Cool cool...do any of the new species really express the iridescent veining more then most of the others, or in unique colors? Thats really my favorite feature of these orchids, but as I've only seen a few species in person and pics don't always do them justice I'm having difficulty picking the ones that best express that feature and/or do so in unique or less typical colors then the straight gold. I know some are more red at least. Can you enlighten us on which ones best experess the iridescent qualities and also which do so in different colors?


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## littlefrog

Shipping a rock? You mentioned something about being on dendroboard and if there was a bonus or something... So I thought about sending a bonus rock. It was a poor attempt at humor.

Rob


Dendro Dave said:


> Ya you supply Josh'sfrogs orchids right? I just got some of your macodes petola...btw I didn't quite get the shipping a rock comment you made on my order lol...what was that about?
> 
> Anyways I saw the ebay seller mentioned I'm thinking of picking up some more jewels from them, but yours came in really good shape and were some of the larger jewels I've gotten the few times I've ordered them.


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## Dendro Dave

littlefrog said:


> Shipping a rock? You mentioned something about being on dendroboard and if there was a bonus or something... So I thought about sending a bonus rock. It was a poor attempt at humor.
> 
> Rob


Ah...LoL...well now that actually get it, its not that bad....I probably would have laughed if I would have caught it


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## Groundhog

I'm glad people are enjoying my post! 

Rob, you find Anoectochilus trickier than Macodes?!? I wonder why? How warm is your greenhouse?


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## candm519

Dowery Orchids has a good picture page:

Jewel


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## littlefrog

Groundhog said:


> I'm glad people are enjoying my post!
> 
> Rob, you find Anoectochilus trickier than Macodes?!? I wonder why? How warm is your greenhouse?


They seem to be tricker for me... Won't matter soon how warm my greenhouse is, since I won't be able to build a new one for a while. They grew well for about a year, and slowly started to fade out. The M. petola is also tricky in the greenhouse, but I have found it so easy to grow in terrariums that I just grow this species in big plastic deli containers. I wasn't able to get the anoectochilus established in terrariums before I figured the trick out, and I haven't had a chance to get a new batch. 

My greenhouse tended to run cool in the winter (55F or so lows) and hot in the summer (over 100F some days). I think that was just too much for the tenderer jewel species. L. discolor and some of the hybrids did great under those conditions though.

Rob


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## Imperial_Aquatics

littlefrog said:


> My greenhouse tended to run cool in the winter (55F or so lows) and hot in the summer (over 100F some days). I think that was just too much for the tenderer jewel species. L. discolor and some of the hybrids did great under those conditions though.
> 
> Rob


100+ would most certainly do it.

I try not to let them go over 90, preferably 85ish.


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## Azurel

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> FYI, I was just reading through this thread and see an eBay dealer mentioned, to be perfectly transparent here, I'm half of that team. The woman who also raises dart frogs, but not advertised is my wife of 16 years
> 
> Our company is split up among Imperial Discus, Imperial Aquatics and Imperial Exotics.
> 
> I'd be more than happy to field any questions about the plants, or availability or species for that matter.
> 
> We have over 30 species of Jewels, so far only 15 species have been made available. Others will be available over the next few months. We have a number of imported species from Thailand and Singapore, several only have numbers for identification as of yet, although a number of them are clearly Anoectochilus sp.
> 
> 
> Steve


Cool I just bought some from your eBay site...
Jewel Orchid Ludisia Discolor Negria and Jewel Orchid Macodes x Ludisia Hybrid
Glad to see it is someone in the hobby and a member here.

Great thread and information......Being new to keeping plants,vivs and Darts thread like this really helps with researching for info and making keeping beatiful plants like Jewel orchids alive.....


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## fleshfrombone

I posted a pic in the foliage thread to show that jewel I popped in one of my tanks.


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## Groundhog

FFB:

Is that Russian or Greek? I can't make it out


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## fleshfrombone

Molon Labe is Greek, specifically Laconic or Lacedaemonian. Literally translated it means come and take them.


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## Groundhog

Now I don't feel so dumb; I did not recognize it in modern Greek! (My family is from Chios; possibly from Crete waaay back.)

GUYS: Any of you ever use those Hagen Geo Rocks? They are polystyrene rocks with a planting area (has drainage holes). Do you think a jewel could grow in these, or will it eventually need a bigger "pot?" 

I ask because it seems like a good way to elevate the plant off a wetter substrate--and they don't look bad.


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## fleshfrombone

Groundhog said:


> Now I don't feel so dumb; I did not recognize it in modern Greek! (My family is from Chios; possibly from Crete waaay back.)
> 
> GUYS: Any of you ever use those Hagen Geo Rocks? They are polystyrene rocks with a planting area (has drainage holes). Do you think a jewel could grow in these, or will it eventually need a bigger "pot?"
> 
> I ask because it seems like a good way to elevate the plant off a wetter substrate--and they don't look bad.


I'm Nordic/Germanic but I see the Spartans as exemplary within the confines of the warrior ethos. And yeah lol that spelling/pronunciation of Greek is around 2500 years old, not to mention region specific (Peloponnese).


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## Mitch

So let me get this strait, I cannot mount a Macodes petola on a background or on wood? What if I wrap the base in sphagnum?


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## littlefrog

If the humidity is high in your tank, you may place it wherever you please. You could mount it on the background. For a little extra help, you might want to put a little bit of sphagnum where you attach the plant, and I'd put the roots into a bit of moss as well.


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## Imperial_Aquatics

Mitch said:


> So let me get this strait, I cannot mount a Macodes petola on a background or on wood? What if I wrap the base in sphagnum?



I wouldn't. It's not even remotely making an effort to provide the plant with a surrounding that is acceptable for it's long term health.

Sure you can wrap it in moss. can you be sure it will remain moist enough?

What about the root/stem? Are you aware that Jewels can get very .... elongated?

your best bet for that plant is to put in in your substrate.


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## earthfrog

I've gotta say I have what appears to be Chapaensis loving my saturated cocofiber soil---but it is planted well above the lowest substrate level in my tank.

Here's what it looks like:


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## earthfrog

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> I wouldn't. It's not even remotely making an effort to provide the plant with a surrounding that is acceptable for it's long term health.
> 
> Sure you can wrap it in moss. can you be sure it will remain moist enough?
> 
> What about the root/stem? Are you aware that Jewels can get very .... elongated?
> 
> your best bet for that plant is to put in in your substrate.


What about surface mounting it on a moist clay wall?


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## Mitch

earthfrog said:


> I've gotta say I have what appears to be Chapaensis loving my saturated cocofiber soil---but it is planted well above the lowest substrate level in my tank.
> 
> Here's what it looks like:


 That looks like a loch-ness monster drinking oil from a barrel. Why not just take a picture? 

Anyways, instead of mounting the Macodes petola to the background, could I place it in a peat planter with some ABG mix? The planter would be attached to the glass with suction cups glued to it then wrapped in Java moss to make it look nice and natural. Good idea?


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## earthfrog

Mitch said:


> That looks like a loch-ness monster drinking oil from a barrel. Why not just take a picture?


HAHA---Nessie represents the orchid. 
I don't have a good camera for it. The drawing says what I need it to say.


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## Imperial_Aquatics

earthfrog said:


> I've gotta say I have what appears to be Chapaensis loving my saturated cocofiber soil---but it is planted well above the lowest substrate level in my tank.
> 
> Here's what it looks like:




From the picture I was thinking it was more likely to be Ludisia discolor dawsoniana.


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## Imperial_Aquatics

Mitch said:


> Anyways, instead of mounting the Macodes petola to the background, could I place it in a peat planter with some ABG mix? The planter would be attached to the glass with suction cups glued to it then wrapped in Java moss to make it look nice and natural. Good idea?



That is definitely a better solution than the first.


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## Groundhog

I'm with Imperial Aquatics on this one. 

Look, I have caught a bit of flack here for recommending that people do not mount Cryptanthus--and they shoot back with pics of "mounted" plants. 

I now think I understand where the disagreement comes from: Technically, plants grown on a moist wall are really not growing epiphytically--they are elevated terrestrials. Would one consider a plant in a hanging basket an epiphyte? (Actually, that's an interesting philosophical question, at least to me  I do not dispute that one can grow any small plant on a moist-enough vertical wall. But not all plants are equally suited to this: Anthurium really is a better choice than Calathea; Neoregelia is better than, say, Draceana. (Side note: A terrestrial well-suited for moist walls? Any small Episcia!)

The point is that the jewel orchids (a group of closely relate plants, btw) are not true epiphytes; they grow as humus epiphytes or as moist lithophytes. A few species may grow as opportunistic epiphytes; if so they grow on moss-covered logs, never bare branches (like tillandsias or other orchids). All jewels have root systems that need to spread a bit as the rhizomes spread. 

However, jewels also do not like saturated substrates. If the real reason you want to mount them is simply to get em off the wet ground, then do the small planter with ABG mix. I myself intend to use a Hagen Geo Rock, with a sheet of NZ sphagnum around the aperture to give the rhizomes something to grab. 

Bear in mind also that jewels do not need very bright light, and you want to leave some room for the flower stalks (which are interesting, and actually kind of nice in _Anoectochilus_ sp.) So don't go too high!

P.S.

Do Loch Ness monsters need cool water?


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## fleshfrombone

Mitch said:


> That looks like a loch-ness monster drinking oil from a barrel. Why not just take a picture?


I just laughed so hard tears came out.


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## earthfrog

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> From the picture I was thinking it was more likely to be Ludisia discolor dawsoniana.


No, the veining is red and curls inward like the Chapaensis.


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## Mitch

Groundhog said:


> P.S.
> 
> Do Loch Ness monsters need cool water?


Standard vivarium temperatures should suffice.


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## littlefrog

Well... In my terrariums I can grow Macodes petola as an epiphyte, and it does quite well. 

Most orchids (most plants!) are remarkably adaptable. They certainly do best under conditions that most approximate what they see in their habitat. But, there is an art to growing plants as well, and experimentation can sometimes give you results you don't expect.

I don't suggest experimenting with plants that are expensive or hard to find, at least until you have some divisions to play with, of course. And I think Loch Ness monsters are endangered enough, I'd stick with standard 'Loch' habitats for now. Might want to add extra calcium.

Rob


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## Caden

I have been able to put plants pretty much everywhere. Like littlefrog said, most are very versatile, as long as you use common sense about the plant.

If you are going to argue about how a plant should be grown based on the very specific phrases such as "humus-epiphyte" as opposed to simply terrestrial, you should know that epiphyte literally means "plant upon plant". Using your logic and this definition of epiphyte no plants in cultivation could be known as growing epiphytically unless they are growing from a living tree.

When a true epiphyte such as an orchid is sitting in a "V" of tree branches, and a normally terrestrial plant species arrives there via seed and roots and grows, do the specifics matter? Does the tree tell the plant that it isn't an epiphyte and move it back to the ground? A large amount of non-epiphytic plants can be grown epiphytically... and you cannot say that they can't.

I am not very good at debating a point, but the point I am trying to make is that none of it matters. If the plant's basic needs are accounted for (and it varies from plant to plant) it doesn't matter where it is growing, or how you phrase it.

Almost any tropical plant (bromeliads excepted) can be planted in sphagnum moss anywhere. It doesn't matter if it is up on a wall, on a branch, in a tupperware container, on the ground. As long as the moss stays the right moisture (100% humidity = moist moss) and the other needs of the plants are met (light, ventilation, temperature) the plant will grow.


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## Dendro Dave

Ok can someone tell me whats going on with a couple of my jewels?...macodes petola specifically....The leaves starting at the base slowly bleach out and turn kinda peach/pinkish color, but they aren't dried up and they aren't all limp like a moldy leaf...the only thing I can think of is to much light.


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## Groundhog

Caden said:


> If you are going to argue about how a plant should be grown based on the very specific phrases such as "humus-epiphyte" as opposed to simply terrestrial, you should know that epiphyte literally means "plant upon plant". Using your logic and this definition of epiphyte no plants in cultivation could be known as growing epiphytically unless they are growing from a living tree.
> 
> When a true epiphyte such as an orchid is sitting in a "V" of tree branches, and a normally terrestrial plant species arrives there via seed and roots and grows, do the specifics matter? Does the tree tell the plant that it isn't an epiphyte and move it back to the ground? A large amount of non-epiphytic plants can be grown epiphytically... and you cannot say that they can't.
> 
> I am not very good at debating a point, but the point I am trying to make is that none of it matters. If the plant's basic needs are accounted for (and it varies from plant to plant) it doesn't matter where it is growing, or how you phrase it.
> 
> Almost any tropical plant (bromeliads excepted) can be planted in sphagnum moss anywhere. It doesn't matter if it is up on a wall, on a branch, in a tupperware container, on the ground. As long as the moss stays the right moisture (100% humidity = moist moss) and the other needs of the plants are met (light, ventilation, temperature) the plant will grow.



First off, my last name ends in "_is"-- So I know what "epiphyte" means :
(Greek names often end in "_is.")

Actually, it does matter how you phrase it. I have already conceded that any plant can grow as an opportunistic epiphyte if the humidity is high enough (hell, in our community garden, there are tomato plants growing on a wall!)

Three points, however:

1) What do we mean by mounted? I take it to mean a plant growing on a mount (slab, cork, treefern, branch, etc.) WITHOUT a big a fibrous root system deriving nutrients from soil. A tillandsia on cork, a Pleurothallis on treefern, a Dischidia in a shell are all mounted. I would not grow a jewel orchid this way (and I do not any orchidist who would)!

2) Time. I also admit that you can "mount" almost any plant on a moist wall. But not all choices are equally sensible. An Anthurium is a better choice than a Dracaena, for example. You say "the plant will grow"--but for how long? Would you rather the Macodes lives 18 months or eight years?

3) Morality. I am serious. You guys would not "experiment" with your frogs, so why do so with plants? Are they not also living things? What's next--"Can my jewel grow submerged? Gee, let me see..." (Unless, of course. you guys believe that plants are more tolerant and versatile than frogs)

As I said before, I am with IMPERIAL AQUATICS on this: For the long-term benefit of the plant, I would not mount it on a wall. I just don't see why 
it is important to try. 

P.S.

By the way, there are trees that try to "tell" plants to get off, using anything from chemicals to ants to even shedding bark! Also, many of these opportunists growing in treeforks don't do as well as they would in a more normal setting. Now there are exceptions; a philodendron that starts on the ground would be happy to start 10' up in a tree fork!


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## Groundhog

Dendro Dave said:


> Ok can someone tell me whats going on with a couple of my jewels?...macodes petola specifically....The leaves starting at the base slowly bleach out and turn kinda peach/pinkish color, but they aren't dried up and they aren't all limp like a moldy leaf...the only thing I can think of is to much light.


How moist is the substrate?


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## Dendro Dave

fairly moist, but not saturated. Its a coco, peat, sphagnum, sand mix mostly. The tank is 30ish hex, with glass top, back of top has ventilation enough to keep glass clear only with a fan running (which it does run all day). My guess is to much light since there is is like 2.5 watts per gallon or more (around 80+ watts of lighting)


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## Groundhog

Hmnnn.... 

Wouldn't too much light bleach the top growth as well? 

Bear in mind, jewels can grow leggy, with the lower leaves shriveling and leaving a "stalk"--the lower leaves get the bleached, pink look (very common on Ludisa discolor).

After it flowers, it will put out new growth--or you can simply snip the stalk, let the end callus, and replant it (at least one node).

Where is it in your tank? I couldn't see it.

P.S.

Is that Sinningia 'Mother of Pearl?'


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## Dendro Dave

This is the viv, its not as bright as this overexposed pic makes it look lol...but still pretty bright. You can kinda see both of them planted on either side of the center piece. 










If you mean the white sinningia, it is "white sprite". I think both my pusillia died, and I also have Sinningia High Voltage and Sinningia Tampa Bay Beauty(not both in that tank (anymore)).

It may be what you described, or it can't support the leaves because I divided the parent plant into those 2 divisions (though both had at least one good root coming off of them). I think this happened with my old petolas in other vivs. I think once they died, the other time they started new growth but I think I killed them taking cutting to often ;(


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## candm519

Macodes is another plant (like Ludisia and the other jewels I have known) that for me likes to flop and crawl slowly across the tank. Active and beautiful leaves grow at the tip of the plant; the stronger and thicker the stem, the more healthy leaves it can support. The bottom older leaves turn pink and will die; I cut them off or let them recycle. 

Big fat healthy tops weigh enough to eventually flop the stem down. Roots grow from the nodes that touch substrate, and eventually if I leave things be, new little plantlets grow up from the oldest nodes.

I usually rush this process by cutting the horizontal stem between nodes, with at least 2 or 3 rooted nodes on each side. If I transplant these sections, mine seem to like soil substrate covered by about an inch of lfs. I tuck in the roots, but leave the stem on the surface. 

Even a tip cutting without roots, for me needs a couple or 3 good nodes below 3 leaves. I usually dip cut end in rootone (mostly for the fungicide) and plant at a slant in the lfs layer with leaves out.

I usually use, and strongly recommend using, growtanks. It is a system that works for me. Bare root (washed and sterilized and usually shipped) transplants tend to be poor survivors, and if they live, take a very long time to thrive. They can recover from the shock better in a temporary 'hospital' tank. 
When I move plants to a show tank, I know they are strong, clean and bugless, so I let the roots bring lfs and substrate with them. The tiny fragile root tips that were 'cleaned' right off, and that have to do all the work, have had a chance to renew and don't need to start growing all over again. This is huge protection against transplant shock.


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## fleshfrombone

Groundhog said:


> 3) Morality. I am serious. You guys would not "experiment" with your frogs, so why do so with plants? Are they not also living things? What's next--"Can my jewel grow submerged? Gee, let me see..." (Unless, of course. you guys believe that plants are more tolerant and versatile than frogs)


LOL WTF are you talking about? Please tell me you were high and/or drunk when you wrote this. I experiment with plant placement all the time and so does everybody else that builds vivariums. In fact get this, sometimes I even chop plants down while they're still alive and eat them! When they get unruly in my yard I cut them down, pile them up, and burn them. Besides, aren't you a leftist? What do you know about morality 

BTW I'm currently growing a jewel in sopping wet soil and the poor tortured soul is growing out of control.


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## Dendro Dave

fleshfrombone said:


> LOL WTF are you talking about? Please tell me you were high and/or drunk when you wrote this. I experiment with plant placement all the time and so does everybody else that builds vivariums. In fact get this, sometimes I even chop plants down while they're still alive and eat them! When they get unruly in my yard I cut them down, pile them up, and burn them. Besides, aren't you a leftist? What do you know about morality
> 
> BTW I'm currently growing a jewel in sopping wet soil and the poor tortured soul is growing out of control.


Ok that makes me mad, because the jewel on the left side of the pic of my hex rotted right in the middle of the stem, the one place where it was actually touching the ground at all...except for the root base. We are literally talking about a strip of soil only 2 inches long probably and 1/4 of an inch wide between the rock and the stump. There is shale rock there and a fan blowing air right through there, I can't believe it rotted when the other one in the corner isn't over rock, probably gets less airflow and is in a lower more humid spot ;( 

One leaf hadn't started to die much, the other was bleached and probably on its last legs but I cut both off the rotted part of the stem and planted them in other tanks to see if they'd root...I also replanted the root base that was left...maybe it will sprout again. All 3 are probably long shots but maybe I'll get lucky. One on the other side and the 2 in other tanks seem to be doing fine, and all the ones from Imperial seem to be ok too. So I guess loosing 1 out of like 7 isn't bad (assuming I haven't spoke to soon).


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## fleshfrombone

Well you've seen my jewel I think, the one with the dark foliage and pink veins. I tossed it in the tank, literally, and it's been a champ ever since. The tank it's in has no ventilation and the soil is constantly soaked. Sorry to hear your problems Dave, maybe you need a cutting of mine?


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## Dendro Dave

Ya I think that was ludisia discolor or whatever wasn't it? I haven't tried that one yet...gone for the more flashy types so far, but I like it.


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## Imperial_Aquatics

Sorry to hear that you are having some issues.

From reading through the replies, as typical, there seem to be a lot of ways to keep plants thriving and healthy.......

Personally I wouldn't go with wet and swampy, but if it is working, for one person, more power to him. 

I like to opt for lots of ventilation and good drainage. I've even got some Jewels in semi hydroponic setups. 32oz. Fruit fly cup, hydroton and an inch of water in the bottom.


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## fleshfrombone

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> From reading through the replies, as typical, there seem to be a lot of ways to keep plants thriving and healthy.......
> 
> Personally I wouldn't go with wet and swampy, but if it is working, for one person, more power to him.


Well said.


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## earthfrog

fleshfrombone said:


> LOL WTF are you talking about? Please tell me you were high and/or drunk when you wrote this. I experiment with plant placement all the time and so does everybody else that builds vivariums. In fact get this, sometimes I even chop plants down while they're still alive and eat them! When they get unruly in my yard I cut them down, pile them up, and burn them. Besides, aren't you a leftist? What do you know about morality
> 
> BTW I'm currently growing a jewel in sopping wet soil and the poor tortured soul is growing out of control.


What kind is it? Ol' Nessie the Chapaensis is doing just as well... but it is raised up off the main base of the substrate.

(I have to admit that I got a chuckle out of your plant rant... I too have been known to prey on foliage....)


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## fleshfrombone

earthfrog said:


> (I have to admit that I got a chuckle out of your plant rant... I too have been known to prey on foliage....)


OOOOOO you bad girl.


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## epiphytes etc.

Imperial_Aquatics said:


> I like to opt for lots of ventilation and good drainage. I've even got some Jewels in semi hydroponic setups. 32oz. Fruit fly cup, hydroton and an inch of water in the bottom.


ya i grow jewels and a bunch of other stuff this way.


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