# Lighting concensus?



## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

What is the lighting concensus?
I am looking for best quality/price. 

As it is now, my frog room is mostly on 4feet long double T8s (6500k+4100K) and as you can guess, plants are doing... ok. Not great, just ok because let's face it, this is minimal lighting imo.
I was thinking about upgrading to T5HOs sunblaster at some point but that would have been an around 1500$ investment for just an upgrade. I tried one to test it out. After a couple days, I could totally see the improvement in the plants but then the light died real fast. I dunno if I got a lemon but I got kinda pissed and gave up on the upgrade.
Lately I've been seeing more and more posts about LED being as good but much cheaper.
So I was wondering, for a huge living room display tank, what kinda lighting do I want?

Like I said, I am not looking for just quality... I want good quality but don't wanna go crazy on $!

Thanks in advance!


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I have a double t5ho linear kit from ahsupply.com. 85 bucks. Then a couple years later (recently) I bought a led lighting kit from easyledlighting.com for 67 dollars. Without a doubt the t5s work good. So far the leds are good but I havent been using them long enough to say for sure. The thing I like about the leds is that the shelf above my tank is only about 2" above the tank...so my cat cant stand on it anymore. Also its only 60watts so its cheaper to run. Supposedly its equivalent to 3-4 T8s.

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## jaybugg13 (Dec 9, 2013)

In terms of total cost of ownership I have to say leds are a strong contender. Most led fixtures are rated for 100,000 hours of use even at 24/7 that's about 10 years without ever needing a bulb replacement and using (usually) less than half the electricity of a t5ho fixture. Led fixtures can also provide a bunch of cool, if not required, features to simulate a 24/7 light cycle and even change the color on a whim. Where I am somewhat more hesitant is output. A good t5ho fixture with great reflectors is probably close the same as high power leds, but not too many economical led fixtures are using those. Also I have no idea what a good par value for a vivarium is. I'm currently planning on 2 satellite led + fixtures over a 40b, so about 60 par at 18", a 2 bulb t5h0 with *individual* reflectors *can* output quite a bit more than low output led. A tek for example has a par of 65 for a single bulb at 18", meaning a 2 or 3 bulb setup would blow a low output led fixture out of the water. Here's a great link for par data.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

A while back I crunched some numbers for a 4' span using LEDs vs. HO T5s (2 bulb fixture w/individual reflectors) over a 10 year period. I included energy costs and bulbs replacement every year for the T5s. According to my math, the less energy and not having to replace bulbs for the LEDs did not make up for the initial investment for enough LEDs to cover a 4' span.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I got 12 5 watt Leds covering a 4' span for 67 dollars.

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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

My 48inch Led fixture was very cheap and has 7500 lumens...


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

If you have a bunch of tanks and want to get a slew of LEDs and are complaining about costs of $1500. Then I would tell you to wait. The price of LEDs is just now coming to the point where if they last, they will be cheaper than T5HO. But they are still a decent investment. Every year from here on out LED prices are going to plummet. So time is on your side to just wait and in a year or 2 it will be a no brainer to upgrade to LEDs. Like wise it is not a good idea to upgrade to t5HO when we are pretty sure they will also be eclipsed very soon from a value stand point. And even further problematic is the reality of the changing LED land scape. It has been less than a year since multiple LED makers for tanks have put up mixed diode bulbs that have red and blue supplemental LEDs. What is next? Will there be several iterations of "full, fuller, and fullest" spectrum LEDs. 


Of course it would be better if you gave us more information about exactly how many lights of which sizes you need we might be able to say better. 

Another option is just to take it slow. So you say light is just OK now right? So what if you buy a couple LED strips then move the existing t8 strips on to taller enclosures to increase the light. Perhaps take out one of the lights so you end up with closer to 3 bulbs / vivarium. This way you can buy a couple different lights and experiment.


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## p51mustang23 (Mar 18, 2014)

I did a lot of research into using LED's for horticultural applications (I work with ornamental plants as a large part of my job), and I've come to realize one of the problems with LED's is that there are a LOT of things that make any 2 LED lights different. 

The angle of the diode is one. A narrowly angled diode (say 25*-30*) will light a smaller area with more intensity, while a wider diode will have something like a 45 degree spread, but may not have as much light penetration. This means some planning needs to be done in order to figure out where to space lights, and if they will light the bottom areas well. 

Another thing is diode size. Some of the new horticultural lights, the ones made in the USA, had 5 watt diodes. This increased light penetration and made plants bushier instead of tall and spindly. Anything chinese tended to have a larger number of smaller diodes. So a USA made light might have 20 5w diodes, while the Chinese model has 100 1w diodes. Same total wattage, but the USA model performs much better for plants. The USA models of course tend to cost 3x-5x the price, but you get what you pay for. 

Then theres spectrum. A light can be tailor made for certain plants. If an LED light is made perfectly, it will use the right mix of red and blue spectrum diodes; this results in a green plant showing up BLACK UNDER THE LIGHT. A really cool effect to see in person. The plant actually absorbs 100% of the light! For use in a viv you would of course want full spectrum lighting. Note that spectrum is often given in terms of nanometers. 

---

sorry thats not specific to vivarium use, but it still goes to show that LED's have a few things to look at that don't apply to other lights. 

My new 29g is running 2 Jungle Dawn LED's (9w + a 13w), and it looks to be plenty of light.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

I would look into the different types of LEDs, that's important too. Some have stronger Drivers than others. Just because a diode is bigger doesn't mean it's stronger. A 5050 diode is bigger than a 3014, but the 3014 is Stronger than the 5050. 

Check this out....


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Pubfiction said:


> If you have a bunch of tanks and...


Well I guess I got sidetracked a bit here.. My question right now is for a 4x3x2 living room display tank so I want much better quality than double T8s ahha!! but do I really have to pay 1000$ for just that setup?

the frog room lighting situation is something else, that will have to wait for now.



p51mustang23 said:


> I did a lot of research into using LED's for horticultural applications (I work with ornamental plants as a large part of my job[...]
> My new 29g is running 2 Jungle Dawn LED's (9w + a 13w), and it looks to be plenty of light.


This is very valuable info right there! Thanks a lot!!
I am seeing more and more of those "Jungle Dawn LED".. 
For my 4x3x2 living room display tank, would it be viable to invest in those to light the whole tank? I am guessing I will want bushier plants than taller right?

I am also considering Coralife T5HOs.. any thoughts about those?

Thanks a lot for the infos to all of you!


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

The ahsupply t5ho come with real nice reflectors. You probably only need the double but if you buy four youll have more than enough growth for less than 200.

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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

B-NICE said:


> I would look into the different types of LEDs, that's important too. Some have stronger Drivers than others. Just because a diode is bigger doesn't mean it's stronger. A 5050 diode is bigger than a 3014, but the 3014 is Stronger than the 5050.
> 
> Check this out....


You need to be careful how you word this. 3014 and 5050 are standard sizes for soldering onto standard sized receptors on a PCB. While the size impacts the nature of the LED you can put in them it says nothing about what LED actually is in them. It is like saying a size #2 screw is stronger than a #4. Depends on the material and manufacturing process. This is why the specs of any LED such as lumens are critical to any fair comparison. Also I think we can assume you mean a number of 3014s that add up to the same power draw as 5050 would output more light in your case? Because a single 3014 would not output more than a single 5050 otherwise no one would ever make a 5050. 




FwoGiZ said:


> Well I guess I got sidetracked a bit here.. My question right now is for a 4x3x2 living room display tank so I want much better quality than double T8s ahha!! but do I really have to pay 1000$ for just that setup?
> 
> the frog room lighting situation is something else, that will have to wait for now.
> 
> ...


When you say 4x3x2 am I right in assuming that it is 48 inches wide by 36 inches deep and only 24 inches tall?


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## pdfer (Jul 3, 2013)

Maybe you mean 4 feet in height? If it is that deep I just got done lighting a 5 foot deep viv and used a very economical led par lamp that you can get at any lowes or h depot. They are 5000k so the color is on the warm side, but I love them...looks like shafts of real sunlight coming down to the bottom. Phillips makes one that is around 1300 lumens.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Yes 4feet long, 3 feet deep, 2 feet tall

I talked to Todd from jungle dawn, he is very helpful and seems devoted btw. I explained my setup and he suggest 4x20w grow and glow and 10x13w jungle dawn. 

I don't know if 5000K will be good enough for such a tank... I want it real nice you know haha
In my experience, when light is insufficient, plants start to grow tall and skinny and ugly!

So the lighting really is a grey area eh? No consensus for now as long as LED price doesn't drop, which it should in the no so far future?


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## jaybugg13 (Dec 9, 2013)

FwoGiZ said:


> I don't know if 5000K will be good enough for such a tank... I want it real nice you know haha
> In my experience, when light is insufficient, plants start to grow tall and skinny and ugly!


So 5000k refers to the kelvin or color temperature of the light. 5000K means that a light source is on the yellow side (sunlight is 5600k). This doesn't actually have any direct bearing on the intensity of the light source. I do agree that plants in too little light attempt to stretch towards lights sources, and often have over sized leaves. In your situation you might want to consider PAR 38 bulbs. These led bulbs screw into standard sockets and can be fashioned into light "pendents" are are composed primarily of under driven high power leds. These are very powerful lights that output a fairly focused beam of intense light (dictated by optic angles) beneath them. In a large tank several of these lights hanging over the tank a) look awesome (as though light were penetrating a forest canopy) and b) provide a ton of light. These bulbs usually run $70 - $140 a piece, plus some kind of standard light socket. Could be a good alternative for you, certainly worth checking out.


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## jaybugg13 (Dec 9, 2013)

Seriously cool....https://www.ocreef.com/ocreef_wireless_remote_par_38?category_id=5122. Almost wish I would have gone with these myself instead of the currentUSA satellite +.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

The last thing ill say is if I could afford them right now id buy from bmlhorticulture

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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Im not a genius when it somes to lighting, but Im a very economical person & always try to get the most for the least energy & cost wise that is. It really is a matter of preference & what will work best in your setup... I find LED striplights very favorable for he following reasons: They have a very high Lumens to Wat Ratio, usually around 90 lumens per wat & they give off much lower heat on average then T5 lighting which is a priority for some also... In act the energy saving alone on switching to LED from T5 was enough for me to do it.. They are also smaller sleeker light fixtures that allow easier placement.. For a small lone Vivaria Id go with a Screw in Down firing LED, but for multiple tanks I do what Bradley Suggested & I use LED strip lights to do multiple Vivaria.. THe lumens & color temp are paramount & then the Lumens to wat to measure efficiency are all I really pay attention to. I have had 3 Sun BLaster T5hos for about 9-10 months now & they have provided great growth & been reliable, btu I have had frends tell me that they can die early.. I suspect its a delicate bulb that really shouldnt be shipped unless packaged and carried properly which is probably never the case... But the product itself is great for growth if you dont mind the excess heat even T5HO gives off.. Also the bulbs wont last as long as LED Diodes which is also another factor to consider... Ive slowly phased out all T5 lighting except for a few Vivs where the lights are not under mounted ona rack..Eventually when those bulbs go I will put LEDS on those tanks also..


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Do you have a link or example of those LED strips? as it is now, one of the problem with LED and my setup would be that I would need several bulbs... which means I will definitely need a canopy/hood because it will be pretty chaotic in there right? I also have to think fans, misting system and also some way to access the whole tank for easy clean up/feeding.
This is the big CON for now that I can see. I am a bit overwhelmed with the whole canopy thing... 
AHsupply recommend 6x 26W LED soo around 600$+Shipping (to Canada...)
Jungle Dawn recommend 4x 20w grow and glow + 10x 13w jungle dawn for a total of 580$ + shipping
buildmyled.com has some very neat and interesting features too... check it out, tell me what you think: Dutch Planted 6300K - Build My LED, LLC
I guess I would need 3x 48inches long one? 810$


The more I think about it, the more I am leaning toward LED. The fact that they're less likely to give up on me is a big advantage to me because I am a pretty busy guy so running around getting new bulbs, new ballast or whatever sounds annoying!

Still not sure which model tho... What's the whole thing around different color diodes? Shouldn't I just go with all 6500k diodes? or should I include couple red ones?

Thanks to everyone for your valuable input!


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

FwoGiZ said:


> Jungle Dawn recommend 4x 20w grow and glow + 10x 13w jungle dawn for a total of 580$ + shipping


That can't be right, Todd recommended 14 bulbs for a single 4x3x2 tank? Am I missing something here or...?


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

I thought it looks a bit overkill too but 
"Hi 
yes, 24 cu ft, so you would want about 200+/- watts of led.

and have it wired up so that light levels could be increased with timers and decreased through out the day. hint use inexpensive timers.

I would suggest: 

4 x 20w grow and glow
Jungle Dawn 20w Grow and Glow

10 x 13w jungle dawn
Jungle Dawn® 7" 13W LED

and 14 mounting kits
This:
Jungle Dawn® Mounting Kit

or these:
Side Mount Socket, 100's of uses.

Thank you!
Sincerely,
Todd C. Goode
"


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Buildmyled is the way I would go if I were you. Its less than $1000 they are some of the best LEDs out there with any color temp and spectrum you want. Dutch planted 6300K is a safe bet. I would mix in 1 light with a 60 degree optic and place that one near the front of the tank. This would allow you to angle them so you don't waste much light on your carpet outside the tank. Then I would put them each on separate timers like the ones I have that have 5 timers in one strip so they come on at different times about an hour apart to replicate sunrise and sunset. 

The problem with jungle dawns is you are also going to need the cost and time to rig them all up. That's going to be a mess of lights in there. Build my led are drop in lights that span the whole width of the tank. Jungle dawns are screw in type bulbs and based on what I have seen the longer grow and glows need some support or they will break I have seen a few broken ones. So you need all the fixtures and support for them. I think Todds recommendations are pretty close to right based on my calculations. I would suggest 16 jungle dawn 13 watts. He is flipping out 6 of those for 4 grow and glows. However one advantage to jungle dawns is that you could create a lot of interesting light effects. You could have hot and cold spots with so many lights. Another question is why mix, why not just go with all grow and glows?

There are other options though. You can get the finnex planted plus. I would start with 4 of them. So it would be around $560 or about the same price as the jungle dawns but they would be much easier to set up as you would only need 4 or so lights. You could also swap in the 



 which would give more light but perhaps not as great of color. Mixing ray 2 and planted plus could work well maybe try 1 ray 2 and 2 planted plus and if you want more light its easy enough to add another strip later. Start a little low on the lights and build you way up, this is fine with LEDs.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Would the dutch be better or I was thinking about the horticultural VIEW-MAX one.. looks like a good mix between plant growth and viewing but then again, I am a total noob... isn't the dutch one better for aquarium? Different LED colors for enhanced viewing of the different colors under water?

And what do you guys think of THIS? LED Pent 48" 0 5W Timer 6500K Aquarium Light Freshwater Tropical Fish Plant 180X | eBay
this is definitely best bang for my buck ... 150$ CAN shipped to Canada.. I think 3 of those would be sufficient. Question is: is quality good enough for the grandiosity of my tank?;p I would think so eh? Plants will like the 6500K and the lumens seems very decent right?

Thanks so much for all the valuable info guys once again!
I will be making a kinda build journal of that tank I am talking about so you can follow the developtment there


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

The dutch planted is for viewing and a good looking display, look at the spectrum and you will see it is far more balanced than the view max, it also has a fuller spectrum. The view max is more designed for energy efficient plant growth while not being a completely purple light. 

The ebay beamworks LED will just be a strait 6500k not particularly interesting dutch planted will be a better fuller spectrum light for viewing. But then again it cost more so the price is up to you. That said lots of people use those beamworks lights and they work fine and offer good value for price.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

ok I just found out this one fixture..... seems a lot cheaper than most other, quality seem to be up for the task plus it has that kewl cloud feature with "remote control for you my friend" (borat voice)
haha
anyone ever tried this fixture?

http://www.marinedepot.com/Current_...xtures-Current_USA-CU04005-FILTFILDTF-vi.html


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

It will not offer as much light as either the finnex or the buildmyLED, but it has a bunch of neat settings and controls so you can dim it, fade the light, tweak the color etc... You would probably have to add more lights to the top to be satisfied.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Hmm well they do have lesser diodes but 30W instead of 35.6W (finnex planted). That's not good enough?
All 48inches
Finnex: 180white, 96red, 12blue for 35.6W, 120degree. Avail in Canada, cheapest price
Current-USA: 96white, 48RGB for 30W . Cloud simulation! Good price... crazy shipping to Canada tho
BML: 32white, 8 red, then 20mixed... for 64W! any degrees avail. (best quality right here, right?) Most expensive... crazy shipping in Canada...
Ebay: 180white for 80W!!! cheapest price/Watts but no dif color, no cool feature.

Now if I have 2 BML and 1 current-usa, is the whole cloud thing still gonna make sense even with the 2 other fixtures blasting light full power? Would that be good enough lighting for my big vivarium?





jaybugg13 said:


> Seriously cool....https://www.ocreef.com/ocreef_wireless_remote_par_38?category_id=5122. Almost wish I would have gone with these myself instead of the currentUSA satellite +.


Did you get the freshwater LED Plus? How do you like the special effects and the remote?
What about lighting output?


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## jaybugg13 (Dec 9, 2013)

FwoGiZ said:


> Did you get the freshwater LED Plus? How do you like the special effects and the remote?
> What about lighting output?


I did and I really like the effects, that's the only thing that makes them worth the money! I built a little computer to control the light settings from the web and on a schedule so I can have automated rain storms or cloudy days etc. The output isn't bad 1500 lumens for the 36in version of which I have 2. Generally they produce about 500 lumens per foot. I believe 3000 lumens is inline with most recommendations but I haven't planted my viv yet so I have yet to see if this really is enough light. I'm feeling like 60 par at the bottom of the tank should be enough to grow most plants in the low and medium light categories. On the whole I probably wouldn't use them on tanks that are more than 18" wide, 18" tall or 48" long a standard 55 sure, but maybe not a standard 65 or 90.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

jaybugg13 said:


> I did and I really like the effects, that's the only thing that makes them worth the money! I built a little computer to control the light settings from the web and on a schedule so I can have automated rain storms or cloudy days etc. The output isn't bad 1500 lumens for the 36in version of which I have 2. Generally they produce about 500 lumens per foot. I believe 3000 lumens is inline with most recommendations but I haven't planted my viv yet so I have yet to see if this really is enough light. I'm feeling like 60 par at the bottom of the tank should be enough to grow most plants in the low and medium light categories. On the whole I probably wouldn't use them on tanks that are more than 18" wide, 18" tall or 48" long a standard 55 sure, but maybe not a standard 65 or 90.


Ok well that whole cloud and storm thing really appeals to me so should I consider like two of those then maybe that beamworks on ebay? 80W 7000 lumens along with two of those current-usa, would that make sense? I'll also have another fixture for UVB tho so we're talking some good lumens in there.. 12K+

I am starting to rule of the BML because they simply are too expensive...
I can get finnex or current-usa for 200$ and 175$ a piece, shipped... considering they're almost equal light wise, finnex isn't really appealing anymore as I'd rather have the kewl features of the current-usa.
Then the beamworks is the strongest of em all, and also the cheapest of em all.. 150$ shipped to my doorstep, while the BML definitely is the #1 quality wise, but now we're talking 360$ a piece.

I am thinking 2x Current-USA and 1x beamworks (ebay) plus the UVB would be a decent choice? 
Then I'll have to decide what kinda UVB I'll be getting, dome or fluorescent.

What do you guys think?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

FwoGiZ said:


> Hmm well they do have lesser diodes but 30W instead of 35.6W (finnex planted). That's not good enough?
> All 48inches
> Finnex: 180white, 96red, 12blue for 35.6W, 120degree. Avail in Canada, cheapest price
> Current-USA: 96white, 48RGB for 30W . Cloud simulation! Good price... crazy shipping to Canada tho
> ...


Watts are meaningless on LEDs, it is a constantly changing target. The efficiency of Lumens / watt has been steadily rising on a yearly bases and the efficiency of each diode is dependent on many things. There are very few people in the planted tank community who consider the satellite plus to be equal to the finnex planted plus. 

There is nothing wrong with mixing fixtures many people do it. It is common in the planted tank community to use a finnex Ray 2 to get higher light then mix it with a current usa satellite plus, finnex planted plus, or finnex monster ray to get a color tone and spectrum they like more. You might get away with 2 satellite plus and 2 finnex ray 2s. But the nice thing is no matter what you do if you don't have enough light you can just buy another one to increase your light.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

damnit! So why are they not all saying how many lumens they're making if it's the one important stat? 
Man I never thought that lighting was so vast ... I guess it's in constant evolution, specially with the diodes that kinda came out in the last couple years!

Hmm I guess I could buy more but it's kinda complicated being in Canada, paying the crazy extra fees and stuff...
I still have plenty of time to decide tho, the tank ain't getting rdy before June at least.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

FwoGiZ said:


> damnit! So why are they not all saying how many lumens they're making if it's the one important stat?
> Man I never thought that lighting was so vast ... I guess it's in constant evolution, specially with the diodes that kinda came out in the last couple years!
> 
> Hmm I guess I could buy more but it's kinda complicated being in Canada, paying the crazy extra fees and stuff...
> I still have plenty of time to decide tho, the tank ain't getting rdy before June at least.


Because lumens is a complicated stat as well. Lumens is a number that gives heavy weight to light that humans can see so it gives the most weight to green light. But plants care the least about green light since they use it sparingly for photosynthesis preferring instead to reflect most of it. So if you are making a light for lighting a home you should list lumens, actually I think by law in the USA you must. But if you are producing a light for plants tits better to use a different measure such as PPFD or PPF or PAR as it is called in the planted tank world. At least that is the closest stat we have to being useful. 

At 18 inches you would get the following values from various fixtures strait down from the center of a 48 inch fixture if the data is available. 
85 - buildmyled dutch planted 90 degree
73 - finnex ray 2
48 - finnex fuge ray
28 - Current satellite plus (SAT+ was set at yellow on the remote)

There is no data from the planted plus but people seem to be able to replace a fuge ray with it so its probably similar.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

MrBiggs said:


> That can't be right, Todd recommended 14 bulbs for a single 4x3x2 tank? Am I missing something here or...?


*umm... when I got the e-mail -- when I read it I thought it was 4 feet tall.*

So I stand by my recommendation for a tank like that *if it is 4 feet tall *because you would naturally need allot of lumen *umph* to get to the bottom and make it look right. Especially if it is planted with ariel Broms and very 3-D, as I would imagine a spectacular set up like that could be!

Since it is 2 feet tall, then one can adjust accordingly.


Ol' Todd here gets allot of "How do I light my giant fantasy viv that I am going to build _someday_" e-mails.... and I love to get them.... but between them all it is easy to confuse my old brain.
LOL

BTW.
I love it if people include pictures and diagrams. It makes it easier. 

Cheers!
Thank you.
Todd


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Oh sorry about the misunderstanding Todd! Yep the tank is 4Lx3Wx2H

I have a hard time understand the ray II has so much PAR if it's just 7000k LEDs... if I understand well, if the lights have more different spectrum (such as the BML, or finnex planted) they should also have more PAR right? 

I am trying to figure out how many par that beamworks has... cause it has very high lumens, 0.4W/LED and is very cheap.

Maybe 2 current-usa for viewing pleasure along with one beamworks or BML that I can turn off when I want to use the clouds effects? 

I think that would be good enough lumens, but maybe not good enough for plants with a beamworks?

Ugh I am so confused haha... hard to figure out best bang for your bucks, with some quality and kewl features!


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

FwoGiZ said:


> Oh sorry about the misunderstanding Todd! Yep the tank is 4Lx3Wx2H
> 
> I have a hard time understand the ray II has so much PAR if it's just 7000k LEDs... if I understand well, if the lights have more different spectrum (such as the BML, or finnex planted) they should also have more PAR right?
> 
> ...


PS.
addendum:
You really should consider adding at least one HO t5 UV generating bulb over the set up.
I personally would not do all LED without adding a UV lighting component on a set up like that.

But you seem overwhelmed enough for now. 
It sounds like it is a work in progress through - so I am sure it will come together in the months ahead. 

Clouds thunder and lightning are cool-- but that all means less to the animals than a solid daily circadian rhythm -achieved by simple stepped lighting brightness throughout the day--
and some UVA added in to help them see better.... and some UVB so they can synthesize vit D *the way Nature intended them to*.
Just sayin'.

Correct light can augment the health and breeding vitality of any diurnal animal.
Good luck with your project.
I am looking forward to seeing the finished project. I would encourage you to do a build thread on the forum.
Cheers
Todd


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Venutus1 said:


> PS.
> addendum:
> You really should consider adding at least one HO t5 UV generating bulb over the set up.
> I personally would not do all LED without adding a UV lighting component on a set up like that.
> ...


Yes, there will definitely be a UVB in there altho the frog don't usually need it all that much compared to lizards right?
I also understand that the cloud light means lowering the overall quality of the lighting but I am trying to figure out if there is a way to have both decently... the tank is big but I don't know lighting enough to know if 2x current-usa + 1x beamworks/BML would be good enough. I guess my best bet would be to try it out. 
I will check out plantedtank.net forums and see if I can find more information.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

FwoGiZ said:


> Oh sorry about the misunderstanding Todd! Yep the tank is 4Lx3Wx2H
> 
> I have a hard time understand the ray II has so much PAR if it's just 7000k LEDs... if I understand well, if the lights have more different spectrum (such as the BML, or finnex planted) they should also have more PAR right?
> 
> ...


There are many factors that go into PAR, if you have a dimmer light and it has a perfectly balanced spectrum it may not have as much PAR as a much brighter light that is green heavy. If you dig around and are careful about models you can probably find someone who has some PAR data for some of the beamworks LEDs. If you want to understand it then you are going to need to start digging into the physics of light, photosynthesis and electronics. 

Then of course you need to balance the features you want / need. If you want it all its going to cost money. That said I will say that while lightning and thunder sound cool I think it is a gimmick you will find you only use to impress friends when they come over and see the display for the first time. So how much do you really want to pay for that? The more important use for the custom inputs is to tweak lighting levels and color. But if you trust the light you bought has good color you can adjust total lighting somewhat by raising or lowering lights and playing with the time for the day cycle.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

FwoGiZ said:


> Yes, there will definitely be a UVB in there altho the frog don't usually need it all that much compared to lizards right?
> I also understand that the cloud light means lowering the overall quality of the lighting but I am trying to figure out if there is a way to have both decently... the tank is big but I don't know lighting enough to know if 2x current-usa + 1x beamworks/BML would be good enough. I guess my best bet would be to try it out.
> I will check out plantedtank.net forums and see if I can find more information.


_*"Yes, there will definitely be a UVB in there although the frog don't usually need it all that much compared to lizards right?"*_

need is a relative thing....
they need enough to stimulate the conversion of Vit D in their skin.

In general - yes, it is true- you are absolutely right...a frogs skin is more "permeable" to UV light than say a diurnal reptiles skin... so in theory they need a less of a (high) level of UVB to achieve the same results.

The D3 Cycle : Arcadia Reptile

You may wish to familiarize yourself with Arcadia UK HO T5 bulbs... 'cause u aren't gonna get any UV from an LED. 
These will be the best you can use along with Jungle dawn for the spectrum. I developed them to work together. 

Cheers.

Todd


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

And it needs to be inside the tank bc the glass blocks 99% of usable uv light right?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

well I was thinking a CFL dome right on top of fibermesh...
still gotta figure out the whole lid thing...


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

You can count on approximately 30-40 percent being blocked by fine mesh and about 30 percent being blocked by solacryl. That means 70 percent is getting through. If you look at some charts to see the depth that the UVB penetrates then you can get an idea how much will reach various parts of the viv based on the distance of the light and what it's going through.

I have one viv with solacryl framed in aluminum U channel as the top and that is working fine. Another viv has my UVB bulb directly over screen. Since the one over screen is a tall viv I have the 12 percent over it assuming a little bit will reach the ground (over two feet). Not a whole lot but then I get the impression frogs don't need what lizards do.

-Nish


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