# feeding mites to froglets



## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

i have a culture of fruit flies that i have had for about 6-7 weeks now and is infested with mites. i noticed that on the lid there were a lot of mites, so i fed them to my 9-10 month old leucs and they love them. and i was just curious, does anybody feed thumb/pum froglets grain mites? i'm assuming they're grain mites


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## Parkway Drive (Aug 21, 2009)

I seed all my vivs with mites. My thumbs love them. Mites are very easy to culture too.


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

I feed mites to all of my mantella froglets. I keep a compost style bin for my froglet growout bin, the mites especially like banana peels. Springtails are extremely easy to keep in this manner too.


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## RibbidyReptiles (Jul 14, 2012)

I bought a culture of woodlice and found it full of mites so I moved all the woodlice to another container and started to culture the mites. The froglets love them!!!


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

How do you culture mites and where do you get them.
thanks john


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Hate mites, for me not worth the trouble (RIP 3 BIcolors) Rather feed the springs......


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## simonphelps (May 29, 2012)

Tricolor
asked how you culture mites and I would like to know too.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

simonphelps said:


> Tricolor
> asked how you culture mites and I would like to know too.


sorry i didnt see that. I'm not sure if he (or you) asked me but whatever. I just take my old fly cultures and set them there and after a few days then, voila, you have mites!


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I have heard that but i never seem to get mites from old cultures? I did get them once in a bucket of springtails. It freaked me and i dumped them outside in the cold winter. john


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Tricolor said:


> I have heard that but i never seem to get mites from old cultures? I did get them once in a bucket of springtails. It freaked me and i dumped them outside in the cold winter. john


I f a springtail culture gets some mites I just place the charcoal pieces directly in vivs with froglets or pumilio, they seem to enjoy picking the mites off. Furthermore, the springtail culture will usually recover unless it is completely overrun. 

As for FF's, mites typically take ~30 days to develop, so if you are always pitching your cultures at the 20-25 day mark then you may not see them. There is an old saying about mites in the hobby...if you think you dont have mites you simply aren't looking hard enough


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

If you are a human with mite allergies, culturing for mites is a bad idea. If you don't have mite allergies and keep mites around, you will develop mite allergies. This can lead to asthma and worse.....

Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> As for FF's, mites typically take ~30 days to develop,


Actually this isn't true... I strongly suspect that this is because the conditions become optimal for the mites allowing for a maximal population increase.. The cycle from egg to egg is slightly under ten days under optimal conditions... See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/75765-learning-hard-way.html#post669543 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> If you are a human with mite allergies, culturing for mites is a bad idea. If you don't have mite allergies and keep mites around, you will develop mite allergies. This can lead to asthma and worse.....
> 
> Richard.


There is also evidence that allergies to mites can also cause cross reaction with other invertebrates like shellfish.... 

Elsevier

Molecular Basis of Arthropod Cross-Reactivity: IgE-Binding Cross-Reactive Epitopes of Shrimp, House Dust Mite and Cockroach Tropomyosins

And with other feeders used for herps. 

So if you like your seafood you may want to consider whether or not increasing your mite exposure is really worth it... 

Ed


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> There is also evidence that allergies to mites can also cause cross reaction with other invertebrates like shellfish....
> 
> Elsevier
> 
> ...


Ed, Richard I would like to thank you both for your response and the info. But, it seems the articles and allergens are related specifically to dust mites. There are several different mites that I am seeing in my frog room. I am pretty sure they are not dust mites. The mites I come across are never in any great quantity, occasionally a springtail culture will get a boom and I throw it away. Fortunately, I don't have an issue with mites in my ff cultures. 

Do your concerns/warning really apply to the mites that are typically occuring in our cultures? 

Furthermore, I was under the impression that mites were very common in our daily lives and part of the natural balance of most environments, so having some in your frogroom doesn't seem like it would be reason for much concern. Is it? Although, I could see how culturing mites, particularly on a large scale could cause some problems. Fortunately, I use them as a feeder of chance, not of intention, if you know what I mean. I am interested to hear your thoughts, thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well using an unfamilar lap top caused a response to be deleted... If you go to google scholar and type in cross reactiviy grain mite dust mite, you'll hit a decent number of articles documenting the cross infection. While mites are common in our enviroments, culturing flies and mites and some of the related activities are potental sources of aerosolization of fomites which places our hobby at greater risk. 

In addition, the flies themselves are known to cause allergic response in labworkers (search fruit fly allergy in google scholar) and there is also a clear link that this can cause cross reaction to other invertebrate allergens. 

As a further allergy risk, a number of people use materials like cyanoacrylates (Gorilla Glue), and isocyanates in polyurethane (Great Stuff). These exposures can increase the risk of sensitization to other allergens that people are exposed to at the same time... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I never had allergies to dust mites or grain mites until I started culturing ffs in large numbers. Now I have to take several medications daily to treat the allergies and asthma.

Everyone makes up their own mind, but I don't think the potential medical complications outweigh whatever benefits might come from culturing mites for frog food.

Take care, Richard.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

You can become sensitized to anything, if you're repeatedly exposed to it. 

Sensitization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm starting to have minor issues with flies/mites, myself. Minor issues usually develop into major issues, given time...

Richard, a good quality particle mask might be an idea. 

Best,


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> Well using an unfamilar lap top caused a response to be deleted... If you go to google scholar and type in cross reactiviy grain mite dust mite, you'll hit a decent number of articles documenting the cross infection. While mites are common in our enviroments, culturing flies and mites and some of the related activities are potental sources of aerosolization of fomites which places our hobby at greater risk.
> 
> In addition, the flies themselves are known to cause allergic response in labworkers (search fruit fly allergy in google scholar) and there is also a clear link that this can cause cross reaction to other invertebrate allergens.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info Ed! I would assume that your frog room has some mites and may have some gorilla glue/great stuff usage. Are you taking any additional steps to protect yourself from all this. From what I have read it seems that routine, moderate to heavy exposure to these things causes hypersensitivity to allergens for some humans. It seems that wearing a mask while working with them would reduce the risk of inhalation of airborne fomites. 

Having read some articles about allergies in the past, it seems people with less healthy respiratory system (smokers, asthmatics) and/or immunodeficiency problems would be more susceptible to problems stemming from allergens. I would think that mites allergies would be no different. I have also read some articles, in which it is hypothesized that sometimes humans become more sensitive to allergens because they have become more removed from a natural environment, therefore exposure to these allergens as a youth is limited and thus adults have limited to no tolerance.

I found this article, indicating I didn't just dream this up, lol:

Evidence of probiotics in prevention of allergy and asthma. - Abstract - UK PubMed Central


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Woodsman said:


> I never had allergies to dust mites or grain mites until I started culturing ffs in large numbers. Now I have to take several medications daily to treat the allergies and asthma.
> 
> Everyone makes up their own mind, but I don't think the potential medical complications outweigh whatever benefits might come from culturing mites for frog food.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


Richard, as Glen mentioned a particle mask may help. Also, many of us are only making a small number of ff cultures a week and thus exposed to far fewer mite fomites (my new word, thanks Ed!). Also, many of us have only been doing this for a couple years so we might not have the long-term exposure that someone like yourself might have, as I am under the impression you have been doing this for quite some time. You have certainly raised my sense of awareness, thanks for sharing your experience.


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

This is all kind of disturbing. I'll have to rethink having my kids help make cultures. 


Sean


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

wow, Good stuff! I think I will reconsider trying to culture mites.
Thanks guys. PS cbreon those cristos are giving me some nice froglets!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> Thanks for the info Ed! I would assume that your frog room has some mites and may have some gorilla glue/great stuff usage. Are you taking any additional steps to protect yourself from all this.


I limit my use of cyanoacrylates and polyurethane and when I do work with either one, I use good ventilation and nitrile disposable gloves (latex gloves are porous to those sort of allergens so they don't protect from contact sensitivity). I actually don't have any great stuff or gorilla glue in my enclosures since I'm cautious about sensitization. 

With respect to the mites, I run a HEPA filter in the frog room, and routinely dust/wipe down surfaces with a moist cloth in addition to using mite paper. My wife gracously runs the vacum cleaner in there (also with a hepa filter). When I am cleaning the cultures, I minimize the fomites by throughly drying the cultures out, popping the dried materials loose before removing the lid and dumping them into a trash can with the container below the top of the trash can and close to the level of the current trash to reduce aerosolizing any materials. Those containers are stored in a tank with a glass lid until I"m ready to clean them. Then they are submerged in a bleach solution and soaked. All handling and washing is done while wearing nitrile gloves. 

I keep other feeders in the basement (crickets for example) to reduce the risk of allergens. They are also handled to minimize disturbence of potential allergens (for example cleaning is done with a small dust pan and placed into the trash can so I'm not disturbing large amounts of dust). 



cbreon said:


> From what I have read it seems that routine, moderate to heavy exposure to these things causes hypersensitivity to allergens for some humans. It seems that wearing a mask while working with them would reduce the risk of inhalation of airborne fomites.


Keep in mind that different materials are able to result in a allergic response in different dosages. A classic example is poison ivy... You could be allergic to it from the very start and can require very small amounts to create the allergic response. The level of required exposure depends on the strength of the sensitizing allergen.. Some very potent sensitizing allergens can require only minute levels and in some cases only a couple of exposures.. See for example Chloroatranol, an extremely potent allergen hidden in perfumes: a dose-response elicitation study. | ResearchGate 



cbreon said:


> Having read some articles about allergies in the past, it seems people with less healthy respiratory system (smokers, asthmatics) and/or immunodeficiency problems would be more susceptible to problems stemming from allergens. I would think that mites allergies would be no different. I have also read some articles, in which it is hypothesized that sometimes humans become more sensitive to allergens because they have become more removed from a natural environment, therefore exposure to these allergens as a youth is limited and thus adults have limited to no tolerance.


Again, it depends highly on the allergen in question.... I bet we could sensitize you to oak moss extract within 4 days by exposing you to a 5 ppm solution... (see above reference). 
If you already have allergies, then there is a greater chance of reaction to novel allergen but it isn't as simple as you think... I spent alot of my childhood outside, got routinely covered in mud and got stung often enough due to running around barefoot to develop a hypersensitivity to honeybee stings... and as an adult I've developed a number of severely dibilitating allergies and poorly controlled asthma. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## RibbidyReptiles (Jul 14, 2012)

Sorry for not replying, haven't been paying attention to this tread.
But I simply culture them just like I would with springtails but I found that they seem to like it slightly drier.
As to how to get them, you can just put a small chunk of mushroom or potato in your frogs tank and I'm sure you will get plenty!
Again I apologize for the slow reply.


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

Ed said:


> There is also evidence that allergies to mites can also cause cross reaction with other invertebrates like shellfish....
> 
> Elsevier
> 
> ...


Ed,

I've had a shellfish allergy for 30+ years. Is there anything in your readings that would indicate that I'm now more susceptible to a cross reaction with mites because of the shellfish allergy?

Thanks,
Bob


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Bob, 

It depends on which allergen you are reacting to in the shellfish. It is possible that you are reacting to a different protien than the one's that cause issues with the mites. As an example, I have a pretty good reaction to mites but I can eat shellfish.. however if I handle and clean raw shrimp or squid, my fingers itch... I can handle either one cooked with no reactions (or use shrimp paste while cooking) or eat them cooked. If I handle bloodworms with my bare hands, they will also itch... 

You could get tested at the allergist for reactions to mites to see if there is a risk for you. 

Ed


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Interesting read. I feel like I am allergic to mites or cultures.....when I feed I feel like my breathing is affected. Also about a year or two ago I started feeling reaction to.shellfish. never have in the past....just came about.

Anything I can do or take to.counter this?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Interesting read. I feel like I am allergic to mites or cultures.....when I feed I feel like my breathing is affected. Also about a year or two ago I started feeling reaction to.shellfish. never have in the past....just came about.
> 
> Anything I can do or take to.counter this?


You should make an appointment with your primary care provider to get a referral for an allergist so that you can be tested to see if you're allergic to those things. You don't want to have a dangerous reaction. Take care.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> Anything I can do or take to.counter this?


At the very least, you may want to talk to your doctor about carrying an epi-pen in case of anaphylaxis... If you go and see an allergist, you can undergo desensitization treatment (shots) which can modify your allergic response. 

Ed


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

I've never had any symptoms of allergic reaction with mites, but roaches, now thats another story. When I first began culturing dubia roaches I had no issues. Over time though, I have developed a very scary allergy to their dander. If I do not wear a respirator (not a dust particle mask but a respirator) my lungs get very tight and I can feel myself lacking oxygen, as I get very irritable and suffer very labored breathing. I also suffer a skin reaction in the form of hives. It has gotten so bad that I have considered ceasing to culture roaches for my larger treefrogs and mantids.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I have an appointment on the 19th.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> I've never had any symptoms of allergic reaction with mites, but roaches, now thats another story. When I first began culturing dubia roaches I had no issues. Over time though, I have developed a very scary allergy to their dander. If I do not wear a respirator (not a dust particle mask but a respirator) my lungs get very tight and I can feel myself lacking oxygen, as I get very irritable and suffer very labored breathing. I also suffer a skin reaction in the form of hives. It has gotten so bad that I have considered ceasing to culture roaches for my larger treefrogs and mantids.


I would strongly suggest getting an epi-pen, consider desentization shots and getting away from the roaches.... One of the reasons is if your sensitivity continues, the residual dust from the cultures that is going to contaminate your house could make it risky for you live there... 

With the severity of those symptoms, you are at risk of an anaphylactic reaction occuring at some point (it may be inevitable). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Ed said:


> I would strongly suggest getting an epi-pen, consider desentization shots and getting away from the roaches.... One of the reasons is if your sensitivity continues, the residual dust from the cultures that is going to contaminate your house could make it risky for you live there...
> 
> With the severity of those symptoms, you are at risk of an anaphylactic reaction occuring at some point (it may be inevitable).
> 
> ...


On this note, if anyone on the boards feels itchy, gets rashes, coughs, sneezes, has difficulty breathing, or feels very "weird" while culturing or doing anything else, these are probably signs of an allergic reaction, and for your own health and safety you should see a doctor about it.


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

I recognized the allergy as soon as I noticed symptoms. I can usually help the tightness of lungs by using an albuterol inhaler, nevertheless, I don't want to risk any further development of allergy, so i'll likely sell off my roach bin and just buy what I need in crickets or roaches from my local herp shop.


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