# Viv Building Journal **PICS**



## jm87 (May 5, 2009)

Hello All,

Couple of pics of my newly build viv

its a 12x12x18 exo-terra with light canopy

Plants: Boston Fern and Peace Lilly
Substrate: Coco Fibre (single brick, though two would have been better)
Also: Cork Bark and 2 Pieces of River Slate (rounded edges)

Im using a 4% bulb


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## jm87 (May 5, 2009)

sorry, should also add this will house two D. Azureus

Comments / Suggestions are welcome


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

you need to put this in the construction section


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Well, I got negative feedback for telling you that this needs to be in the construction area (I'm just going to assume it was you) anyway, I was just trying to help this person, so later he he/she doesn't get in trouble by a mod for placing it in the wrong section. I was in no was "trying" to be a moderator, I was being helpful. Also, the way you put your comment made it look like I'm always telling people where to put their threads, I did it once, here, this was the only time....


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

Is there a layer below your coco Fiber ?


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## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

I don't think there is a layer beneath the coco fiber.
That will get damp and stagnant in no time.

have a look at a few constuction journals for dart frog vivariums here to give you a few idea's to building your viv .

False bottom methods are mainly used, different ways of making it.
And functional backgrounds ect... Lots to learn!
have fun!


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

_Not trying to be a jerk... _ But you really should get a false bottom in there - and a 12X12 tank is *barely* enough for one adult azureus... Two? Honestly it's too small. 

If you leave the tank the way it is - the water will remain stagnant, it'll mold, and eventually everything will die.

Good news is - it's a cheap & easy fix. Just grab some bioballs or whatever clay bottom layer you want - throw some vinyl screening over it - and the dirt over that. Just 2" deep or so is plenty for the drainage layer... And you'll need to change the water every once and awhile. Otherwise - you should be good to go!  The plants you chose will do fine in high humidity.


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

MeiKVR6 said:


> _Not trying to be a jerk... _ But you really should get a false bottom in there - and a 12X12 tank is *barely* enough for one adult azureus... Two? Honestly it's too small.
> 
> If you leave the tank the way it is - the water will remain stagnant, it'll mold, and eventually everything will die.
> 
> Good news is - it's a cheap & easy fix. Just grab some bioballs or whatever clay bottom layer you want - throw some vinyl screening over it - and the dirt over that. Just 2" deep or so is plenty for the drainage layer... And you'll need to change the water every once and awhile. Otherwise - you should be good to go!  The plants you chose will do fine in high humidity.


I was thinking about the azueres thing, but I'm not oo much of an expert so I didn't want to say anything false. Also, is this your first viv? If not, why not try thumbnails or pumilios? 2 could fit in that, right?


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Thumbnails you might be able to get away with, but will still be pretty cramped for 2 of them. As for pumilio, they have a little bit larger space requirements and the 12x12 just wouldnt suffice. Even after that, pumilio are recommended for more experienced people as they can be quite demanding. 

-Matt


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

noo, do not put pumilio in that. just because they are small doesn't mean they don't need as much space. 

the viv you have is set up terrestrially and i would not suggest you putting a thumbnail, or pumilio in there. 

if your heart is set on a pair of tincs then go for it, but i would plan on building them a growout tank of at least 10g. even then some people are going to tell you to shoot for a 20g min for a pair of tincs.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

One tinc is about all you can fit in there. The 12x12x18 is approx. 11 gallons and most people would recommend 10 gallons per adult frog. 

-Matt


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

jelly_shrimp said:


> I was thinking about the azueres thing, but I'm not oo much of an expert so I didn't want to say anything false. Also, is this your first viv? If not, why not try thumbnails or pumilios? 2 could fit in that, right?


Ok, well I got a few angry messages about this post, so maybe I need to clear a few things up. Notice I said *IF NOT* for the pumilios and thumbnails idea, I'm saying that if this is your first viv, do pumilios, HELL NO!!! (should be obvious but it came up..so whatever), also, I realize this isn't set up for pumilios, but since he can't put the frogs he/she wanted, he/she has a reason to rip it up, and start over. I hope this clarified my post, sorry for any confusion!


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## jm87 (May 5, 2009)

Thanks for all the comments 
I agree this should ALSO be in the construction section but as a beginner i felt it would be better here...people then know im just starting out and can point out my beginner mistakes.

I opted for just coco-fibre here for the following reasons:

No water feature so no possibility of wicking or becoming boggy
I mist the plants and moss in there and water the roots lightly, so again no high water content
lastly, i drained off a LOAD of water before the substrate went in so its not that soaked 

It should be fine

As for size, I hear a lot of conflicting views on tank size and frogs...the shop i am buying from has told me this will be fine for 2 azureus for about a year or so, which is all im aiming for here...i will then transfer them to a larger tank when space permits and use this tank for someone else (prob a snow leopard gecko)

thanks again and keep it coming

Jelly-Shrimp - without wanted to fire up a forum argument (i do not have the time nor the inclination) i did not give you any negative feedback over your comment...I had enough trouble figuring out how to put pictures into the post 

Regards to all


James


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

jm87 said:


> Thanks for all the comments
> I agree this should ALSO be in the construction section but as a beginner i felt it would be better here...people then know im just starting out and can point out my beginner mistakes.
> 
> I opted for just coco-fibre here for the following reasons:
> ...



1. water doesn't evaporate into the viv's
2. False Bottoms/Gravel/Leca help to keep the humidity up, almost offering a sort of buffer space if you will
3. Correcting it now will prevent undue stress on Frogs in future
4. Correcting it now will prevent undue stress on plants in future


Another note, I would suggest some research on the reasons not to use only coco fiber as a substrate. There are many reasons its not great by itself. Its a great addition but it needs a supporting cast to really shine. 

You may also want some leaf litter, as it will keep the coco off the frogs.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dragas said:


> 1. water doesn't evaporate into the viv's
> 2. False Bottoms/Gravel/Leca help to keep the humidity up, almost offering a sort of buffer space if you will
> 3. Correcting it now will prevent undue stress on Frogs in future
> 4. Correcting it now will prevent undue stress on plants in future
> ...


+ 1

Your viv, as currently built will not be suitable for dart frogs. You will have very poor results with that substrate without a false bottom.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

I too did this when I first started. The plants were drowning,and it became a harber for bacteria. It started to really smell. Then I redid the viv with a mix of peat moss,ABG mix and coco fiber, and it has so far lasted for 2 years and continues to have that nice earthy smell. Coco fiber alone does not last long. 

I too put a peace lilly in my first viv as well and it did not flourish. It died. Even if you do get it to live in a vivarium (which I have seen some people do) I have seen it grow very tall. (please correct me if I'm wrong,maybe I'm looking at a peace lilly look a-like).
EDIT: I also agree that adding leaf litter is a great idea. I also think it gives a more naturalistic look to the viv plus help support bugs such as springtails and isopods(you should also consider adding them, they make a great snac for the frogs). Adding leaf litter also made my first auratus bolder. 
Just my $0.02
JP


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## MarcNem (Dec 13, 2008)

Hi jm87,

Nice to meet you. Let me start off by saying, I hope you are taking everyone's comments and suggestions with a grain of salt. We are only trying to help ensure your frogs are happy and healthy. Many of our suggestions have come from personal experience and by making the same mistakes your making now. If you leave things the way they are, the guys are right, your tank will become stagnant and moldy. 

I know you are proud of your vivarium. For it is a little work of art that took time and energy to complete. But.... as much as you are reluctant to do so, it would be in the best interest of your frogs to tear the tank down and start again. Trust me, it would be worth it in the long run. For a tank like yours I would simply add a drainage layer (as previously stated, either leca clay balls or false bottom egg crate), covered by a 2" substrate layer (I use a mix of coco fiber, lizard litter, long fiber sphagnum moss, and tree fern root mixed in equal parts). Then add a nice healthy patho, and a layer of leaf litter. Soon the patho will grow out giving the frogs the much needed security they require. While I would not recommend leaving a pair of adult azureus in a tank with a foot print that small, a pair of froglets or sub-adults will be fine for a few months. You can even start a spring tail culture in the substrate and it will become stable and last for years.

Lastly, let me leave you with a little food for thought. Keeping PDF's can be a very rewarding hobby if you take the necessary steps to keep your frogs healthy. A quick review of some of the construction journals on this site can save you many headaches and possibly save your frogs lives.

Keeping in mind, this is only my opinion, speaking from my experience. I hope this helps.

Marc


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## jm87 (May 5, 2009)

OK....considering the advice given on this forum and others (Im on Vivariumforums, Dendroboard and Find Me A Reptile) i have done the following...gutted the tank and rebuilt...

I was dreading this for about a week but it was a quick job as its only a small tank

I put about 1 - 1.5" of gravel in the bottom...not pea gravel but the larger stuff...

I then dumped a layer of cocofibre over this, about an inch and set my plants, and then planted them in deeper, making sure the coco-fibre is properly packed down...this will set when it gets damp too...

i also got rid of the slate pieces as I fel ti had too much but found a massive lump of wood in the garden, washed it thoroughly and burried it in plants and cocofibre

tank now:


Gravel...










Plants...










Side View...










Whole Tank...










More Plants...









All done 

James


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## pookiebuttons (Jan 15, 2009)

My suggestion before building a tank ( I have only built one so far) is to do an incredible amount of research, on the construction, the soils, the plants, the frogs. My suggestion for a small tank such as yours (mine is a ten gallon also small) is to especially do research on the types of plants you plan on adding to avoid overgrowth and make it as aesthetically pleasing as possible. I would ditch the peace lily and add some smaller plants. Also I would add a background with some vines or broms to make it look more realistic and give more surface area for frogs. Here is a list of plants I used in my 10 gallon. 

Syngonium rayii
Peperomia perciliata
Salvinia natans
D. hirsuta
Neo. Chiquita Linda
Neo. Cheers
Dossinoides Indra's Web
Peperomia prostrata 
tropical moss 
Oncidium "Twinkle Pinkie"
Tillandsia usneoides
Onc. Tolumnia "Pretty n Pink"

You can research plants on this forum and on the web. I guess it depends on your available funds to buy plants and if you want to buy from stores in your area or online. 
I just think that before buying dart frogs it's good to do lots of research and set up a viv as perfect as you can avoiding as many mistakes as possible, they are not cheap.


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## MarcNem (Dec 13, 2008)

Much better James. Looks alot better and should last longer. Keep in mind that if there is no filter (fiber glass screen or weed netting) between the substrate layer and the drainage layer eventually the sibstrate will begin to settle into the drainage layer. Also, I am not sure the coco fiber will provide enough nutrients for the fern. You may need to add a little organic potting soil around it's roots. The other plant should be ok, for it will grow very well in plain ol water.

Stay enthused. 

Marc


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## jm87 (May 5, 2009)

its been setup this way for about 2 and a a half weeks now...seems to be fine on all counts...

I put the gravel in and patted this down to make sure it completely covered the bottom, then the same with a first layer of Coco Fibre, got it nice and settled into the nooks and crannies down there before adding another layer to landscape, again this was compacted down slightly.

frogs coming this weekend or next 

thanks

James


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