# Juvenile Patricia dart drowning and coming back to life



## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

A few days ago I found one of my juveniles that is about 3 months old in a crack behind the water feature and it appeared it drowned. I left it alone for a few hours after I rescued it from the place it wedged itself into. Nothing happened so I put it in the trash. My friend had some adults that breed so she had more of their siblings so I got some more. However, she had 7 and in the last few weeks, 5 of them died. I got the two that were still alive and took them back with me. I now have 3 of them. I returned them to the vibrarium and the one I had originally was swimming in the water and I notice it limp in there. I pull it out and it appears very dead, there was no movement in the throat area which is my usual indication of life. I didn't want to deal with discarding it right away so I put it in a small tupperware in the vibrarium and it looked dead for at least 5 hours. I woke up this morning and was going to throw it away but it was not in there. It is alive! but what is going on with them? Are they at a fragile place in their lives? Do they need different food/vitamins? I feed them fruit flies with reptocal (calcium and vitamin d3) about every 3 to 4 days.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Get rid of your water features. Dust Repashy cal+ every time you feed on the Flies.


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## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

The ones I got from my friend had no water feature and 5 of them were dead, is there a reason why this might be happening? 
Has anyone ever had a frog that appears to be dead for several hours then comes back?


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## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

It is acting dead again. I just moved it to a smaller container without the water features and it is isolated. Should I just leave it alone? It won't eat anything. I am worried that I am stressing it out.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ?

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ?

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So sorry, but it may well be too late to save him. Your frogs are suffering from a severe vitamin deficiency. Rep Cal is nothing but calcium, and D3 required to utilize it. Your frogs REQUIRE a multitude of other vitamins.
If I were in your situation, I would leave the little guy alone. The only way you can save him is with vitamins. He is not eating. He's probably gone. I would discontinue use of Rep Cal. I don't use it at all. Instead, I would dust Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding. If your frogs are striking at flies, but seemingly missing them most of the time, then begin using Repashy Vitamin A Plus once a week until the problem is corrected. In the meantime, every other feeding should be dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus.
Please note that Rep Cal is ONLY calcium and the D3 to deliver it.
Repashy Calcium Plus has all your required vitamins, plus of course, the calcium. Calcium Plus is designed to be a stand alone supplement.
Rep Cal was absolutely NOT designed as a stand alone supplement.
Adding Herptivite by itself, to your current rotation of Rep Cal, would NOT fix the problem. You would still need a source of preformed vitamin A, which Herptivite has deemed unimportant. Yet somehow, frogs keep dying from a lack of vitamin A. The problem with Rep Cal and Herptivite could be fixed, but it would require Repashy Vitamin A Plus, or a different source of preformed vitamin A.
So, to summerize, you can fix the problem by purchasing both Herptivite, and Repashy Vitamin A plus, and rotate through 3 different supplements, OR, you can simply buy some Repashy Calcium Plus, and have a single supplement that you will begin using at EVERY feeding.
Good luck. I think if you follow one of these two courses, you will see improvement with your other, and/or your future, frogs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, another sign that it may be too late, is that very sick or dying frogs sometimes seek out water to pass away in. Hobbyists report drowned frogs, but more often than not, the frog was probably very ill.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Oh, another sign that it may be too late, is that very sick or dying frogs sometimes seek out water to pass away in. Hobbyists report drowned frogs, but more often than not, the frog was probably very ill.


This is interesting. I always questioned reports of darts drowning, but I didn’t know they seek water when dying. I assume the draw has something to do with a diminishing ability to osmoregulate?


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## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?
a. Patritia dart frogs. I have had one of them for 3 months, the other one I got with him just died. My friend had adults that breed, and I just got 2 more form her 2 days ago. Those ones seem to be doing okay, but she did have 7 of them and when we opened the container to get another frog only 2 were alive. 

2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?
a. It is usually kept around 20c, high 24c low 17c. I traveled with them yesterday and they got cold before I got home. 

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.
a. probably around 100% humidity. There is a waterfall thing that keeps it humid. Water is arrowhead right now. The tank is inclosed by 3/4 glass at the top and then a cage over that. 

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?
I am feeding fruit flies, every 3 days about. Recently I have been giving them flys every day (past 2 days). They seemed disinterested, maybe they were still cold when I put the flies in yesterday after the travel. I was dusting with reptocal. 

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ?
3 frogs currently. I just moved the really sick seeming one. I had one that died less than week ago and go the other 2, 3 days ago. 

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?
was acting normal until I found it almost drowned twice. It liked to swim a lot before with no problems so I don't know what is going on. 

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ?
I have handled them. I had to move them into the tank. Also, I have had to rescue this one a few times. I hope he comes back again. 

8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? Take numerous pics of everything
How do I post pictures?


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## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

Thanks Pumilo, 
I will try the supplements. Do you think they will both work equally, or is one better than the other? 
Also, I saw someone make a vitamin bath on youtube for their frogs should I try that for the sick one?
Thanks


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

h_kloser said:


> 1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?
> a. Patritia dart frogs. I have had one of them for 3 months, the other one I got with him just died. My friend had adults that breed, and I just got 2 more form her 2 days ago. Those ones seem to be doing okay, but she did have 7 of them and when we opened the container to get another frog only 2 were alive. *RED FLAG!! Starting with 7 frogs only 2 survive..*
> 
> 2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?
> ...


use IMGBB to upload photo's




Conclusion : It seems to me you have absolutely no idea of how to keep dart frogs. Please take some time to read as much as you can about housing and keeping dart frogs. You (and probably your friend too) did almost everything wrong. Now a lot of animals have died and suffered due to lack of insight and or preparation..


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## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

Hi Tiji,
Thanks. My tank is probably not 100% humidity then, I don't have a hygrometer so I don't actually know. They seemed to be doing really well before. I think it probably is the vitamin thing. The person at the pet store said that the supplements I got were the right ones for them so I thought they were probably right until now. I have fed them some springtails a few months ago, but those were very difficult to get out of the dirt and into the tank. What would you recommend feeding them? 
And as far as the temperature thing, thank you, I will use a more regulatable container next time. I thought the heat in my car would be sufficient but it was really cold out yesterday. The usual low is closer to 20c, that was only one time that it got down to 17.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

For feeding I recommend giving the biggest variaty of feeder you can. Springtails, fruitflies, aphids, isopods, crickets, worms, greenbugs,.. and many more if possible. Ofc the supplementation is very important.

I suggest you post photo's of your setup. 9/10 there also problems with these. 

Also what lighting do you use?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tijl said:


> use IMGBB to upload photo's
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude! Chill out! He's here, researching and finding the right answers...which you don't provide. You just call him a murderer and say there should be animal abuse charges?
If you want to jump all over someone, jump the guy at the pet store that gave bad information. Jump the companies that make and sell improperly made frog vitamins. Don't jump someone here to learn.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

h_kloser said:


> Thanks Pumilo,
> I will try the supplements. Do you think they will both work equally, or is one better than the other?
> Also, I saw someone make a vitamin bath on youtube for their frogs should I try that for the sick one?
> Thanks


I answered very carefully, as vendor feedback is not allowed on the open forum pages. I'm not allowed to tell you which method is better. My frogs lived and bred successfully using only Repashy products. Personally, I have not purchased anything from Rep Cal or Herptivite in over 10 years. If that still doesn't answer your question, pm me.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pumilo said:


> Jump the companies that make and sell improperly made frog vitamins.


For what its worth, RepCal/Herptivite is not labeled for amphibian use, as far as I can tell from their website.

Benefits

If I recall correctly, this product was a big deal in the early 1990s or so, when there was a (possibly unwarranted) scare about overdosing vitamin A, primarily in captive chelonians. Omnivorous animals (like turtles) can convert carotenes into Vitamin A, so this wasn't a bad product at the time given the assumptions.

All that aside, Repashy Calcium Plus is currently a much better option, both for darts and any other captive herp.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

h_kloser said:


> I will try the supplements. Do you think they will both work equally, or is one better than the other?


I'll answer, since I see this as a frog care question, not vendor feedback, and at any rate product recommendations have always been acceptable here.

Out of those two choices, use only the Repashy product line. There are no manufacturer recommended dosing schedules for using the Repashy Vitamin A to augment another manufacturer's 'Vitamin A free' product. Plus, like I mentioned above, the RepCal products are specifically marketed for use in reptiles.


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## h_kloser (Mar 31, 2020)

Thanks, everyone! 
I got the calcium plus. They didn't have any just vitamin A at the pet store so hopefully, this is enough to fix their deficiency. I gave the really sick one a little bath in a very small amount of water and the supplement and he seems to be doing better. Not moving a whole lot but ate at least 10 dusted FF. Will try feeding him again tomorrow if he makes it through the night. He is currently in a separate container with only about 5mm of water in a small container so hopefully, he won't try to drown again and has some water for comfort. 
I haven't had much success in getting the new frogs to eat any flies while I am watching. Hopefully, they found some in there. Their vibrarium is now 22c so hopefully, that is a good temp. 
Thanks for your help!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Now you need to keep it fresh. Store it airtight, lightproof, and in the fridge, NOT the freezer. I like to pull a week or two's worth, and keep it in a black film canister, to keep in the frog room. Refill it while you are still in the kitchen, so it always goes immediately back into the fridge. If you take it into the frog room, sooner or later you will forget it in there. Don't ever let it come to room temperature again.
Vitamins begin degrading immediately upon contact with air. Human pills aren't quite so sensitive, as the bulk of the pill is sealed inside and doesn't oxidize so fast. Our froggy powders begin degrading the moment you crack the lid. Do everything you can to keep them fresh and working properly.
Keep in mind that they should be replaced every 6 months with new Calcium Plus. If you don't store it properly, it should be replaced much more often.
Try to always buy it as fresh as you can. I love supporting our supporting vendors, but I always purchase my vits directly from Repashy Superfoods. It insures you get the freshest product possible. 
Lots of froggers like to buddy up and share supplements, as most people don't go through a whole pack in 6 months.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Pumilo said:


> Dude! Chill out! He's here, researching and finding the right answers...which you don't provide. You just call him a murderer and say there should be animal abuse charges?
> If you want to jump all over someone, jump the guy at the pet store that gave bad information. Jump the companies that make and sell improperly made frog vitamins. Don't jump someone here to learn.


I don't said he was a murderer? I said THE LAW in europe considers this a animals abuse due to the fact this person did not took care as he should. I do share that opnion, but thats a different topic..

He should always have researched BEFORE purchasing animals, not only get information from sellers. The person that sold or gave him the frogs also let 5 animals die.. Thats why I pointed out this is a big red flag and you should nnever take animals home when seeing this. They could possibly carry diseases or other.. 

It is always better to prevent than to cure.. This information should always be known, but no one ever talks about this or points this out. How can beginners learn this when nobody says it? 

Since you already provided a big deal of good advice, I found it very unnecessary to repeat you advice.. 

I don't think the person took it as a 'jump' on him since he kept asking good questions and advice. I also think I did not 'jump' him and did gave him good advice unlike you stated I did not.. I try to shown him and other readers of this topic the bigger picture. Sorry you could not see that.


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## photoj (Apr 1, 2020)

Tijl said:


> Get rid of your water features. Dust Repashy cal+ every time you feed on the Flies.


AMEN! Water features and most dart species is a bad idea.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

Our western toad had hypocalcemia from using just reptivite so now he gets calcium gluconate too. One of our pacifics got into a sink of dishes and looked dead. But a half hour later she woke up and hopped away.


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