# Getting Started in the UK



## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Hi Guys,

I'm new here, I've wanted some frogs for a long time but only just in the position where I can consider it seriously and I've been doing a lot of reading. I'm viewing this as a long term project, designing and planting the viv and not expecting to really be getting any frogs for another 6 months or so at least.

However, I'm in the UK (Scotland actually) and I'm really struggling to find anything I need remotely close to me. I've already resigned myself to the fact I'm probably going to have to build a vivarium myself. Size wise I think maximum dimensions would be 60 x 45 x 60 cm.

To get the frogs themselves I'd obviously have to travel a fair way, or get them shipped.

The problem at the minute is that I'm going round in circles with the fact that I really need to have some idea of what I want to keep before I can choose a vivarium set-up but have very little idea what will be available to me when I'm actually ready to get frogs.

I really like thumbnail species and that is probably the route I'd choose to go down if I can find something suitable. 

My other concern is that in a lot of species you seem to need an individual of each sex, but it also seems they can't be sexed at the age they tend to be sold. Given the location issues and the fact I can only really have a single set-up this seems like it's going to severely limit my choice of species. I'm not in a position where I can really return or re-home individuals that don't get on!

If anyone has any suggestions about the best router forward I'd very much appreciate hearing your thoughts.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Welcome! 

First off, I'd start figuring out the space you have available. Once you have that area measured and blocked out, you can work to find what species are suitable for that enclosure size. You should be able to find aquariums if you cannot find vivariums for sale and just convert them. That would be a lot less effort than getting glass cut and building your own. If you're able to get glass cut and are comfortable with the DIY euro style builds, by all means go for it! If not, know that you can work with aquariums to turn them into vivariums. 

Once you have that space figured out and have list of species you can comfortably home in that space I'd look to see if you can find any local breeders in the UK area. I'd think there should be a few as I just saw a recent new member post that they are in England and that they were formerly in the hobby. I get that the drive to get the frogs would be a distance, but being that they are 'local' ish would remove the shipping stress. I'd also check to see if there are any UK PDF groups on Facebook, you may be surprised with what you find


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Welcome to the board! We have lots of folks from your neck of the woods here on the board and hopefully some of them can point you in the right direction.

Mark


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. I really appreciate the input.



Tihsho said:


> First off, I'd start figuring out the space you have available. Once you have that area measured and blocked out, you can work to find what species are suitable for that enclosure size.


I think my size limit is 60 x 45 x 60cm so 24" x 18" x 24". I originally wanted something deeper but I can't find reasonably priced cabinets that are deeper than 18"!



Tihsho said:


> You should be able to find aquariums if you cannot find vivariums for sale and just convert them. That would be a lot less effort than getting glass cut and building your own. If you're able to get glass cut and are comfortable with the DIY euro style builds, by all means go for it! If not, know that you can work with aquariums to turn them into vivariums.


I've never built anything out of glass before, but as I said this is intended to be a project and if I can get class cut and drilled at reasonable cost I'm game to give it a go. But I'm in the same cycle, until I work out what size I want I can't draw up plans and see if local glaziers are prepared to cut the glass and how much it would cost.

I slightly have my heart set of a proper euro style tank, but I 100% take your point that I'm making life hard for myself.



Tihsho said:


> Once you have that space figured out and have list of species you can comfortably home in that space I'd look to see if you can find any local breeders in the UK area. I'd think there should be a few as I just saw a recent new member post that they are in England and that they were formerly in the hobby. I get that the drive to get the frogs would be a distance, but being that they are 'local' ish would remove the shipping stress. I'd also check to see if there are any UK PDF groups on Facebook, you may be surprised with what you find


I don't do facebook, so maybe that is part of my problem. I have been doing my best to find keepers and breeders but I haven't turned up many. Certainly none in Scotland. I know the UK is small but it isn't that small, so the South of England is very much pushing the feasible limits.


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## Steve-Cov (Sep 27, 2020)

Hi, there are a number of Dart frog breeders in Scotland and I'd suggest that you join a couple of FB Dart frog groups on there. They could recommend vivs and frogs to you that will suit your locale. There are also members selling plants and bromeliads that you would find difficult to locate otherwise.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Steve-Cov said:


> Hi, there are a number of Dart frog breeders in Scotland and I'd suggest that you join a couple of FB Dart frog groups on there. They could recommend vivs and frogs to you that will suit your locale. There are also members selling plants and bromeliads that you would find difficult to locate otherwise.


As Steve says really, get on the local groups and UK groups. Good point re: cuttings and broms - I sell they locally to me and always popular.


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. I'm doing my best to find local groups but without much success. I've scoured classifieds etc and while people have frogs for sale further south it just seems like a big black hole up here.

While Facebook might be good for networking, I haven't ever had an account, and out of principle have no intention of starting now. It honestly amazes me that people are prepared to continue supporting the company.


Anyway, I spent the weekend learning FreeCAD and now have plans that I can send to glaziers. Obviously the final sizes are still to be determined but the program updates all the plans when you change a measurement so I think the hard work is done.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Shrimply said:


> I really like thumbnail species and that is probably the route I'd choose to go down if I can find something suitable.
> 
> My other concern is that in a lot of species you seem to need an individual of each sex, but it also seems they can't be sexed at the age they tend to be sold. Given the location issues and the fact I can only really have a single set-up this seems like it's going to severely limit my choice of species. I'm not in a position where I can really return or re-home individuals that don't get on!


There are a number of thumbnail species that would be acceptable in small mixed groups in a properly designed viv of the size you're considering -- _Ranitomeya sirensis, R. amazonica, R. vanzolinii_. There are certainly (non-thumbnail) species that are much more tolerant of novice errors, but with a lot of forethought and a viv that puts the needs of the animals first, second, third and fourth -- ahead of aesthetic concerns -- a new keeper can be successful with Ranitomeya.

Though my own track record on this is sketchy  , experienced breeders can sex thumbs with some reliability before they're fully mature. As you spend more time here on DB, I think you'll bump into other UK keepers who can help point you in the right direction.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

There is indeed a large number of companies selling dart frogs in the UK. As well as vivarium supplies. You may need to drive a few hours to pick up everything you need. But it is attainable. Here is one of the vendors I see mentioned a lot on discussions for UK vivariums.

Dartfrog - Vivaria

There is at least one other out there, but I couldn't find it right now. If you are really opposed to Facebook and willing to shut out the tens of thousands of people that keep and sell dart frogs on Facebook, then you can always check out mewe.com as an alternative. The mewe groups are more focused on selling than on keeping, which is probably useful for you.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

minorhero said:


> Here is one of the vendors I see mentioned a lot on discussions for UK vivariums.
> 
> Dartfrog - Vivaria


I don't want to slander or defame anyone but people should be aware that the owner of dartfrog.co.uk, Marc Staniszewski, has been previously *arrested in the united states and charged under the Lacey act and the Endangerted species act with smuggling wild caught endangered animals - he plead guilty.* He still sells a LOT of wild caught animals and if you really dig you can find other very credible accusations about his unethical practices.
https://books.google.nl/books?id=1Muuqiga2Y8C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=marc+staniszewski+smuggling&source=bl&ots=WnNZHTcRqh&sig=ACfU3U3CwCxR-t4Tlb6L9fKEUgBrxa8Gjw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbt5j39IvsAhXailwKHe4qCHcQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=marc%20staniszewski%20smuggling&f=false


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Louis said:


> I don't want to slander or defame anyone but people should be aware that the owner of dartfrog.co.uk, Marc Staniszewski, has been previously *arrested in the united states and charged under the Lacey act and the Endangerted species act with smuggling wild caught endangered animals - he plead guilty.* He still sells a LOT of wild caught animals and if you really dig you can find other very credible accusations about his unethical practices.
> https://books.google.nl/books?id=1Muuqiga2Y8C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=marc+staniszewski+smuggling&source=bl&ots=WnNZHTcRqh&sig=ACfU3U3CwCxR-t4Tlb6L9fKEUgBrxa8Gjw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbt5j39IvsAhXailwKHe4qCHcQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=marc%20staniszewski%20smuggling&f=false


I didn't know this but I'm glad to be informed. I had looked at their site, but the fact that they don't offer delivery and that custom orders are sent to Germany, and then the vivs collected and brought to the UK. Seemed like an overly complicated process even before the current issues with travel.

The other option for a custom build that I know about is DMS Vivaria. However, their site has been down for the last two weeks. It would also be a 800+ mile round trip.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

This is useful information, so thank you, Louis. 

There's a fine line between facts and defamation, so I hope we continue to stay on the correct side of it so this notice can remain here.



Louis said:


> I don't want to slander or defame anyone but people should be aware that the owner of dartfrog.co.uk, Marc Staniszewski, has been previously *arrested in the united states and charged under the Lacey act and the Endangerted species act with smuggling wild caught endangered animals - he plead guilty.* He still sells a LOT of wild caught animals and if you really dig you can find other very credible accusations about his unethical practices.
> https://books.google.nl/books?id=1Muuqiga2Y8C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=marc+staniszewski+smuggling&source=bl&ots=WnNZHTcRqh&sig=ACfU3U3CwCxR-t4Tlb6L9fKEUgBrxa8Gjw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbt5j39IvsAhXailwKHe4qCHcQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=marc%20staniszewski%20smuggling&f=false


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

In this case the conviction is a matter of public record so I think I'm probably on the right side of the law but I encourage people to do their own research.
He certainly has some happy customers in the UK but he has quite a reputation in certain circles in Europe.
Zoo Centre in Dundee had the following dart frogs available in Scotland at the start of the month.

CB19 Golfodulcean Poison Arrow Frog (Phyllobates vittatus)
CB19 Yellow- banded poison dart frog (Dendrobates leucomelas Puerto Ayacucho)
CB19 Anthony's poison arrow frog (Epipedobates anthonyi)
CB19 Green and Black Dart Frog (Dendrobates auratus)
CB19 Blue Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobates tinctorius azureus)-back to stock
CB19 Dyeing poison dart frog (Dendrobates tinctorius Citronella)
CB19 Albino (Dendrobates auratus)-last one
CB20 Phantasmal poison arrow frog (Epipedobates tricolor) 

I can confirm that they are a fairly responsible livestock vendor _relative to other reptile shops in the UK_. I wouldn't trust that they necessarily understand optimal dart frog care although they are generally well intentioned and they seem, superficially at least, to maintain their animals in good health.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

I have also commissioned custom aquaria in the past from this company in Scotland https://www.freeindex.co.uk/profile(dc-aquariums)_363907.htm and had good experiences dealing with them. They advertise that they also build custom viviaria so might be worth a look but I can't comment on the quality of their vivarium builds. The aquariums met my expectations though and were very reasonably priced. I've also sourced UV transmitting glass from them before.


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Louis said:


> I have also commissioned custom aquaria in the past from this company in Scotland https://www.freeindex.co.uk/profile(dc-aquariums)_363907.htm and had good experiences dealing with them. They advertise that they also build custom viviaria so might be worth a look but I can't comment on the quality of their vivarium builds. The aquariums met my expectations though and were very reasonably priced. I've also sourced UV transmitting glass from them before.


Thanks for the frog and viv info, it's very much appreciated. I'd probably prefer if I can find a breeder over a shop if possible but it's really nice to know that there are options.

I had the same thought about custom build aquarium places but hadn't got around to contacting any yet. It's bonkers how many of these places (and small businesses in general) don't have proper websites in this day and age! I'll definitely keep your recommendation in mind. Funnily enough I'd just been researching UV transmitting acrylic but hadn't really found any options. It hadn't even occurred to me that there would be a glass equivalent.

I think if I can get the glass at a decent price I'm quite excited to try building my own. It may all end in tears but I think it would be nice to be able to say I'd built it myself. I have it on good authority that someone local will cut the glass to spec without issue.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

In my opinion the best sources for vivarium plants in Scotland are actually Bens Jungle in Germany and Araflora in the Netherlands. Both will carefully pack and ship a mich wider range of vivarium suitable plants than anyone in the UK. 
In the past my orders from both have usually arrived within five working days.
https://bens-jungle.com/home-bens-jungle-online-shop
https://www.araflora.com/index.php?route=common/home

Xoum.fr in France also have some very rare mosses and ferns available and again I can personally recommend them although some of their prices will shock you.
https://xoum.fr/gb/

When you're tank is ready, you can PM me if you want and I'll send you some cuttings from my tanks, I'm also in Scotland.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Shrimply said:


> Funnily enough I'd just been researching UV transmitting acrylic but hadn't really found any options. It hadn't even occurred to me that there would be a glass equivalent.


I've bought custom sized UV transmitting acrylic from Bayplastics previously.
Cut to size plastic such as Acrylic, Polycarbonate, Perspex & Plastic Fabrication | Bay Plastics Ltd


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Louis said:


> When you're tank is ready, you can PM me if you want and I'll send you some cuttings from my tanks, I'm also in Scotland.


Thank you for all the insight, that's a huge help. And thanks for the offer that's very generous of you and I will definitely take you up on it when the time comes.

Good to know about the UV plastic too. I think my current plan is just to make sure the mesh on the top is wide enough to accommodate a UV light over it. But it's nice to have some other options to consider.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Shrimply said:


> Thank you for all the insight, that's a huge help. And thanks for the offer that's very generous of you and I will definitely take you up on it when the time comes.
> 
> 
> 
> Good to know about the UV plastic too. I think my current plan is just to make sure the mesh on the top is wide enough to accommodate a UV light over it. But it's nice to have some other options to consider.


Generally speaking, very few of us give our frogs any UVB. It's a much debated / controversial topic .


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Generally speaking, very few of us give our frogs any UVB. It's a much debated / controversial topic .


I'll confess to have not read that thoroughly on the issue, so I will try to find some info and delve deeper into the subject. However, my thoughts were that an Arcadia ShadeDweller tube over mesh is probably going to provide semi-natural levels of UVB that the frogs can utilise if they wish and is unlikely to be detrimental.

Obviously though I'm hear to learn so I'll take all the pointer from experts that I can.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

UVB is a rabbit hole of information... Be warned when looking into it. Some articles from researchers flow the scientific method while others come off as crack pipe theories that oddly sound possible, just not measurable.

I would try to match the lighting of the person/breeder you get your frogs from.


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## Shrimply (Sep 20, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> Some articles from researchers flow the scientific method


I'm an evolutionary biologist by trade, so we'll be looking at the peer reviewed literature


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Yeah just to clarify I keep geckos not dart frogs, I'm mostly on Denroboard for the plants, livefood and viv builds but UVB is obviously much more of a concern for me hence having sourced both UV transmitting glass and acrylic.

Here's a really interesting expirment investigating the influence of ultra violet light on perch selection in Oophaga pumilio though that suggests they avoid it in the wild.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0051364


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Louis said:


> I don't want to slander or defame anyone but people should be aware that the owner of dartfrog.co.uk, Marc Staniszewski, has been previously *arrested in the united states and charged under the Lacey act and the Endangerted species act with smuggling wild caught endangered animals - he plead guilty.* He still sells a LOT of wild caught animals and if you really dig you can find other very credible accusations about his unethical practices.
> https://books.google.nl/books?id=1Muuqiga2Y8C&pg=PA147&lpg=PA147&dq=marc+staniszewski+smuggling&source=bl&ots=WnNZHTcRqh&sig=ACfU3U3CwCxR-t4Tlb6L9fKEUgBrxa8Gjw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbt5j39IvsAhXailwKHe4qCHcQ6AEwAnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=marc%20staniszewski%20smuggling&f=false


Thank you for this! I wasn't aware he was a smuggler. I will stop linking to him. I believe DMS is the other one I see get mentioned a lot.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Socratic Monologue said:


> There's a fine line between facts and defamation, so I hope we continue to stay on the correct side of it so this notice can remain here.


This is very true. Difficult to judge unless he's here to defend himself.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

minorhero said:


> The mewe groups are more focused on selling than on keeping, which is probably useful for you.


The problem with these groups is they tend to be mainly US based from the searches i've done on that platform.

Unless someone can enlighten me with any UK based groups....


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

gex23 said:


> The problem with these groups is they tend to be mainly US based from the searches i've done on that platform.
> 
> Unless someone can enlighten me with any UK based groups....


The groups are global, just post your looking specifically for in the UK and see who responds.


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## illucam (Oct 27, 2017)

Hey, I'm based in Scotland.
PM'd you, Shrimply.


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## Hylomantis (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm shocked to here this about Marc at DartfrogUK. I met the guy years ago.

I cannot advise using the terrarium manufacturer suggested I was very unhappy but obviously don't want to say anymore and I apologise if this breaks the rules as it is.

As for plants I personally recommend Bens Jungle but if you use the ENT Terrarium site it lists all the plants but only those in stock and is much easier  




Sent from my SM-A105FN using Tapatalk


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

Search Listings - MyDartFrog UK


Search the Classifieds Post New Advert Manage Adverts Keywords i.e Azureus, Southern etc




www.mydartfrog.co.uk





Is something I've seen for breeder listings, I use a WhatsApp group related to it too as you get quite quick answers on there for specific issues. FWIW, we jumped into the Ranitomeya as beginners and have loved it. Did months of research and got pretty much everything right so far so can vouch for your methodology.


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