# Ready to start with Thumbs! Advice please.



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

I have done searched a few times on here and have gotten just some ideas since most of it is kinda asking for viv set ups for a specific frog.

I have two 29 horizontals. One with auratus and the other houses leucomelas. I am looking for one last set of frogs to complete my collection, knock on wood!
I am looking to do a 10 or 20 vertical to house an arboreal PDF or a thumbnail although most are arboreal anyways right? 

Since this will be my first go at this kind of set up and type of frog what do you guys recomend I get? I don't want anything too expensive just a good beginner vertical tank PDF.


----------



## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Imis are good. great variations too. i have some borja vents that are ALL over the place and constantly calling which im loving a lot.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

I get confused with these little guys. Are they Ranitomeya Imitador or Dendrobates Imitador? And can I see pics of your set up?


----------



## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus are vents and Ranitomeya Imitator are Imitators.

Im at work but ill snap pics later when I get home.


----------



## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Here this thread for now....good viv, basic set-up

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/60747-imitator-viv.html


----------



## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

10Vert is to small for thumbs...I would say go with the 20 Vert. Also springs and iso are a must!!!


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

rcteem said:


> 10Vert is to small for thumbs...I would say go with the 20 Vert. Also springs and iso are a must!!!


Would it be too small even for just a breeding pair? I will probably go with a 20 but is there any you would recommended for a 10 gallon?


----------



## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

you can go with a 10, but youll have so much more success and better breeding luck with a 20. why dont you use the 10 as temporary housing for a tad bit until you can put a 20 together?


10 years back 10 gallons were the standard just about but as of recently, i think everyone agrees that 20H are lot better blue print altogether.


----------



## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

alex111683 said:


> Would it be too small even for just a breeding pair? I will probably go with a 20 but is there any you would recommended for a 10 gallon?


I can honestly say 10 Verts are tough for me to get breeding out of...20 verts are very successful for me...plus why not give them more room than they need versus barely enough room


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Then it's settled! A 20H. Now to figure out what to put in. So are imitador a good first time vertical frog?


----------



## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

a nice trio of imitators would be perfect for a 20H. ive heard some even do a 2.2. but it be a great set-up for imi's


----------



## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

sktdvs said:


> Here this thread for now....good viv, basic set-up
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/60747-imitator-viv.html


I was going to link that same thread 

R. imitators were at one point in time called D. imitators, they were scientifically reclassified, to clear up that confusion.

I just got my first thumbs from Alpha Pro Breeders. Ron is a nice guy, he answered a lot of questions I had about his different thumbnails before I bought a pair. (...In any other context, the last sentence would make no sense.) It couldnt hurt to shoot him an email or find him on here and send him a PM.


----------



## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

alex111683 said:


> Then it's settled! A 20H. Now to figure out what to put in. So are imitador a good first time vertical frog?


I believe so, but then again, they are my first dart and Ive only had mine for 1 day...
Everything that Ive read has stated that they are a great introductory species of thumbnails. I actually chose them because of the sound of their call, then looked into morphs.
http://dendrobates.org/calls/imitator.mp3

The good thing about imitators is that they come in all kinds of different morphs. I prefer the nominal version myself, but if that doesnt suit you, there are others to choose from. 

Here are some sites from my computer's history during my research stage, read up!
Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Notes on Caring for Thumbnail Frogs
Dendrobates.org - Ranitomeya imitator
D. imitator
Imitating Dart Frog, Ranitomeya imitator / Dendrobates imitator (Schulte, 1986) - Care and Breeding - Frog Forum
Monogamy Seen in Amphibians for First Time - ScienceNOW
Varadero tadpoles metamorphosing - Frog Forum


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I've put a pair of thumbs in 4 10g verts so far, and I'm 4 for 4 on breeding. Everyone has different experiences. Don't forget about the lady who bred imitators in a pretzel jar.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

johnc said:


> I've put a pair of thumbs in 4 10g verts so far, and I'm 4 for 4 on breeding. Everyone has different experiences. Don't forget about the lady who bred imitators in a pretzel jar.


I just might try both but I'm leaning toward 20 still. A pretzel jar!? Is there a thread about that on here or even unusual tanks/containers people have used?


----------



## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

I think any imi are a great choice...I like doing a 1.2 in a 20 vert but you can get away sometime with a 2.2. I prefer 1.2 though or 1.1. Imis are really bold and will use the full space of the tank. Best of luck and just research no matter what!!!


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks rcteem. And yeah I am doing a lot of research right now.

Also what do you guys think of lamasi?


----------



## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

alex111683 said:


> A pretzel jar!? Is there a thread about that on here or even unusual tanks/containers people have used?


Here is the pretzel jar thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/57712-r-imitator-alex-sens-first-eggs.html

Bigger terrariums are always a great idea - the frogs deserve the room.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Yeah I found it a few minutes ago, thanks though. Yeah they di deserve the extra room, I only want the best for my frogs.

Anybody have an opinion on lamasi?


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Frogs will sometimes breed in QT containers also. Bigger is always better for permanent housing.


----------



## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

We have always found lamasi to be hardy little frogs. They could be a good choice for first thumbs. One drawback, is that they can be very shy. A lot of them will only be active in the early morning or late evening. Despite their shyness, they are still one of our favorite species. They can be setup similar to imitators, and will breed in a large variety of sex ratios ( 1.1; 2.2 ; 3.1 ; 2.3).
Definitely not as bold as most imitators, though.


----------



## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> I just might try both but I'm leaning toward 20 still. A pretzel jar!? Is there a thread about that on here or even unusual tanks/containers people have used?


She wasn't trying to breed them in a pretzel jar. That was the quarantine container but she did include lots of plants and a couple mini neos and they did their thing.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

rcteem said:


> 10Vert is to small for thumbs...I would say go with the 20 Vert. Also springs and iso are a must!!!


Yes, go with the 20!!
Doug


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> I am looking for one last set of frogs to complete my collection, knock on wood!


I hate to tell you this, but there is NO, _"one last set of frogs"_. You have a disease. It will only get worse. Learn to live with it!
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I hate to tell you this, but there is NO, _"one last set of frogs"_. You have a disease. It will only get worse. Learn to live with it!
> Doug


Yeah I know, I don't know why I even told myself that. I definitely have the disease. But for now it will have to be it since it's me, my wife and daughter in a small two bedroom. Although I do have a decent size walk in closet.......yeah your right I've got the disease. I just hope it doesn't get to the point you got to or many have talked about on here. Man someone needs to start PDF anonymous!


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> Man someone needs to start PDF anonymous!


I'm Doug with PDF anonymous, and I'm not only the president, I'm also a member!


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I'm Doug with PDF anonymous, and I'm not only the president, I'm also a member!


Hi Doug. LOL. It would probably turn into a gathering for trading hahahaha!

I think I am going with Imitador but might go lamasi since they are cheaper. Which of the two are easiest to breed?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> Hi Doug. LOL. It would probably turn into a gathering for trading hahahaha!
> 
> I think I am going with Imitador but might go lamasi since they are cheaper. Which of the two are easiest to breed?


I'm good friends with Nick and Austin at InnoEcto and yes, Lamasi can be considered hardy enough. However, I would be afraid that as a first thumbnail, you may be disappointed. This is simply because they can be very reclusive. Nick is lucky enough to have some very bold green lamasi. I picked up some offspring from him (and I love them, Nick!), but mine are typical of most lamasi. I have seen only one, out of a group of four, only about 3 times in the last several weeks. That's fine for me, I was prepared for their shyness. I still hope that they will become more bold, like their parents, as they grow up. I always recommend one of the many beautiful Imitator morphs for a first thumbnail. If you are looking for cheap, start shopping around for nominant imitator. Generally $50 or less. I saw some a few months back for only $35 so just start shopping.
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

What do you guys think about ventrimaculatus? I have come accross a possibly good deal in them and from doing other reading many people also recommended them as good starter thumbnails. 

Another thing, are the amazonicus basically vents? I've seen them labelled as their own species but other times as a vent morph. Man thumbs can be confusing!


----------



## davidadelp (Sep 29, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> Thanks rcteem. And yeah I am doing a lot of research right now.
> 
> Also what do you guys think of lamasi?




I have lamasi's 2 definate females and a possible male and they are all very bold and usually always out and about. The possible male is a lil shy but not bad. They all eat like pigs! I have a nominant imatator and I liked him but I traded the 3 I got now for him. Mine has bright orange and black markings. I prefer them now. My gf was fond on the nomiant though.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Vents are also usually very shy. To the best of my knowledge, Amazonicus is an outdated term and they are actually in the Vent family. Amazonicus is generally used to describe a red Vent. The Todd Kelly line of Amazonicus can be considered an exception as they can be rather bold. 

Are they a good starter thumbnail? Again, my opinion is that if someone gets a very shy first thumbnail, they may become disenchanted with the species. They are hardy enough to be a first thumb species, but so shy I would generally say no, myself. My all time favorite first thumbnail to recommend is the Intermedius morph of Imitator. Followed by any other morph of Imitator. The Intermedius is bold and the splash of bright orange really jumps out at you, making them easy to spot in the viv. They are decently priced anymore at $65 or $75, and mine have always bred well. If you pull their offspring and raise them yourself, you can have a real tadpole factory going on. Or, if you raise them with film cans and broms and just let the parents do their thing, they will eggfeed and eventually, you will have a couple/few froglets climb up and out of the broms.
Doug


----------



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

johnc said:


> Here is the pretzel jar thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/57712-r-imitator-alex-sens-first-eggs.html
> 
> Bigger terrariums are always a great idea - the frogs deserve the room.


That was actually a guy---his name is Mike. 
I added another note onto the end of that thread about breeding frogs in cramped quarters...


----------



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

alex111683 said:


> Yeah I know, I don't know why I even told myself that. I definitely have the disease. But for now it will have to be it since it's me, my wife and daughter in a small two bedroom. Although I do have a decent size walk in closet.......yeah your right I've got the disease. I just hope it doesn't get to the point you got to or many have talked about on here. Man someone needs to start PDF anonymous!


It's better to start small and become an expert on just a few species before getting as many as you can right off the bat IMO. I only just now moved on to pums and I've had imis for a couple years now. I'm still no expert, but so far I've been able sex the female imitators before they look gravid just from the bone structure and behavior. Pums are a little trickier in general.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Yeah intermedius is very nice looking. My favorite has to be the varadero though. Followed by the intermedius.

I guess in the long run @$70 isn't too bad since they will be producing often and all three petshops in my area said they would purchase what I get. Barely anybody has pdfs up here. Out of the three petshops in the county they might get 1-2 PDF every year to every other year. I really want to get a group going up here but I want to get at least some experience before I'm the "go to guy " up here. I've already had a couple of calls from the petshops referring me.

And I only plan on getting two maybe three sets of frogs, knock on wood! Right now I have auratus and very soon leucs and hopefully in the next couple months a group of thumbs.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Varadero are a great frog too. I've got two different bloodlines going. I've only had mine for a couple months but they seem pretty bold. You had expressed concern about the cost so I was trying to come up with some cheaper alternatives for you.

I don't want to suggest something you already know but I don't know how much research you've done. You know you are going to want a taller tank with lots to climb on, right?
Doug


----------



## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Hey, so your going to try it with 20 gallon vertical tanks? Let me know how it goes. I'm hoping to try some breeding with 15 gallon vertical tanks, but not for a long while to come. I've been focused on building the actual tanks and testing out different construction ideas. I would have loved to use 20 gallon tanks, but I couldn't find any frameless ones locally. Eventually I'll start designing the insides so there is enough vertical space for the habitat. For now I'm still trying to finish the magnetic doors and lower ventilation. Just last week I got the fans for the internal air circulation going.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I don't want to suggest something you already know but I don't know how much research you've done. You know you are going to want a taller tank with lots to climb on, right?
> Doug


Oops! 20 gallon vert. Duh. I knew that.
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Oops! 20 gallon vert. Duh. I knew that.
> Doug


It's alright, it is getting late. So do you use 20 or 10 for your imis? I have a 29 gallon right now too but it looks awkward to me vertically. 

Anyone had good success making a 29 vertical? I would have to make my own very kit since they only sell them for 10 and 20 but I think the 29 has the same dimensions as a 20L right?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> It's alright, it is getting late. So do you use 20 or 10 for your imis? I have a 29 gallon right now too but it looks awkward to me vertically.
> 
> Anyone had good success making a 29 vertical? I would have to make my own very kit since they only sell them for 10 and 20 but I think the 29 has the same dimensions as a 20L right?


A 29 is about 30" x 12" x 18". I think that would be sweet as a vert! So much climbing room! The 20 would be sufficient, though. I use custom fabbed tanks for all my frogs. I own a glass business soo... My standard thumbnail size is approximately 25 gallons, probably a little bigger. My standard Pumilio size is about 50 gallons. Here is a link to see my custom sized vivs. (by the way, I'll build these for frog trades if you are close enough to Denver, CO to come get them) http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/60340-my-first-clay-backgrounds.html
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Then I might just have to try the 29 gallon tank. I just tried to do a search and didn't find any 29 gallon verts. The search kept leaving out the 29. 

So what's the best ratio for a group of imis, vents, or lamasi? I was thinking maybe 1.2 or 2.2?


----------



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

alex111683 said:


> Then I might just have to try the 29 gallon tank. I just tried to do a search and didn't find any 29 gallon verts. The search kept leaving out the 29.
> 
> So what's the best ratio for a group of imis, vents, or lamasi? I was thinking maybe 1.2 or 2.2?


For the most part, imis do best in pairs. You can do a 1.2 trio with them, but it works better to do a pair---more productivity and no fighting among the females for dominance or egg laying or feeding the young ones. Groups work better with vents. I don't know much about lamasi.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Imitators have recently been found to be monogomous. So if you set them up 1.2, the second female is just a third wheel. Not only will she NOT breed, she may eggfeed and just generally slow things down. Yes, people have run imis as 1.2 (I have myself) but 1.1 will be more productive and happier. Susan is also right about the vents. Group them with multiple females. Lamasi are also generally done in groups. Proportions of males to females is not too important but multiple females will get you more eggs.
Doug


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> For the most part, imis do best in pairs. You can do a 1.2 trio with them, but it works better to do a pair---more productivity and no fighting among the females for dominance or egg laying or feeding the young ones. Groups work better with vents. I don't know much about lamasi.


Andy (brooklyndartfrogs) has a million 29 verts set up in his basement, those tanks at 0:14 are 29s and a lot of the others too - you can recognize them from the other verts probably:


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Andy (brooklyndartfrogs) has a million 29 verts set up in his basement, those tanks at 0:14 are 29s and a lot of the others too - you can recognize them from the other verts probably:


WOW!!!! If I only had that kind of room!! Thank video gave me so many ideas! Thanks so much for posting it. I think I might do a group of lamasi in the 29 gallon viv and a pair of imitators in a 20.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> I am looking for *one last set *of frogs to complete my collectionQUOTE]
> 
> Ahh, Ha Haaa Haaaa!! Did I tell you?? I'm pretty sure I told you!!!
> Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> alex111683 said:
> 
> 
> > I am looking for *one last set *of frogs to complete my collectionQUOTE]
> ...


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Sorry to start this up again. I've been doing more research again and have also come up on a possibly good deal for some variabilis. I understand they can be somewhat shy also. What do you guys think of them as a starter thumb? I read they breed easily but might have different needs depending on lineage and do great in groups. What are peoples experience with them and let me know also what line you have. If I remember right the two are INCIBICO and Understory. And I've noticed understory is about twice as much, why?


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Decided to bump this instead of starting a whole new one.

I am getting a pair of cainarachi valley imis tomorrow!!!

I am so excited. I have everything I need except one thing. The quarantine container. 

I for sure don't want to get yet another tank. I was thinking just a sweater box/tub. My question is what size tub would you recommend for the pair. And would setting it next to my other tank so it just gets ambient lighting be fine for a couple weeks?


----------



## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

I have a bunch of the 190 oz tubs. They are like big plastic cups with a lid. You can get them from Josh's Frogs.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> Decided to bump this instead of starting a whole new one.
> 
> I am getting a pair of cainarachi valley imis tomorrow!!!
> 
> ...


Sweet! Congrats. I use rubbermaid storage boxes from Lowe's. The measure about 16" x 10" x 10". Gives them climbing space and plenty of room for a while. They run about $6 or $7. I don't trust the lids, though, and cut a piece of glass to lay across the top. Ambient light will be fine as long as it is enough light to hunt a fruitfly. Remember, the light is for the plants and so your frogs can find dinner. So for temporary conditions, you could even get away with an ordinary incandescent bulb...but watch out for the temperature!

Don't forget the pictures!
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sweet! Congrats. I use rubbermaid storage boxes from Lowe's. The measure about 16" x 10" x 10". Gives them climbing space and plenty of room for a while. They run about $6 or $7. I don't trust the lids, though, and cut a piece of glass to lay across the top. Ambient light will be fine as long as it is enough light to hunt a fruitfly. Remember, the light is for the plants and so your frogs can find dinner. So for temporary conditions, you could even get away with an ordinary incandescent bulb...but watch out for the temperature!
> 
> Don't forget the pictures!
> Doug


What don't you trust about the lids? Too loose that they might escape? Maybe putting something heavy on it?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> What don't you trust about the lids? Too loose that they might escape? Maybe putting something heavy on it?


Yes, they just feel a little bit loose. Weighting it would probably be fine. It's just that glass is Free! Just go grab a piece from the shed, or the garage, or the basement...Oh yeah, you're not me! Plus it makes it easier to check up on them and light penetrates better. Still, enough light gets through that you could use the standard lid.
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

I see exactly what you mean. The lids would be easy for the frogs to escape from. Good thing I do have a piece or two of glass laying around.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree about the lids, especially for thumbs. Never thought about the glass solution. What I did is put a piece of tape on each of the four sides and pull it tight. The problem is I'd have to pull the tape loose every time I needed to get inside to feed.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Thank you guys so much for helping me with this. 
We just decided to go out of town from the mid day on the 22nd and mid day on the 25th. So that leaves the frogs alone for two whole days. Will they be ok sealed up completely? Or should I drill a couple holes for a little ventilation. But then I have to worry about losing a little humidity. What would you guys do.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know if this is the right thing to do, but, I would make little holes. I make a few at the top and a few at the bottom, with the idea that it will pull/push the Co2 out of the bottom holes since it is heavier. Don't know if this makes any sense in reality


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you got the nice big size like I use, I think I told you about 16" x 10" x 10", then you don't need to worry about air holes. I only open mine every 2 or 3 days to feed and they are fine with no air holes. Even with a pair of half grown Azureus. So thumbs will definitely be OK. I'm sure you know this, but you have a moist substrate, right? I use sphagnum moss and enough leaf litter to supply each frog with several hiding places.
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> If you got the nice big size like I use, I think I told you about 16" x 10" x 10", then you don't need to worry about air holes. I only open mine every 2 or 3 days to feed and they are fine with no air holes. Even with a pair of half grown Azureus. So thumbs will definitely be OK. I'm sure you know this, but you have a moist substrate, right? I use sphagnum moss and enough leaf litter to supply each frog with several hiding places.
> Doug



I got a 13x12x9, weird dimensions huh. So will that be ok to not open for about 3 days?

I have organic sphagnum and two types of oak leaves and magnolia leaves. That's what I was thinking of using for the temporary substrate unless others suggest otherwise. I am also going to put a cutting or two of pothos and about 3-5 small broms. How does the set up sound?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sounds pretty good to me. The live plants will help freshen the air too. I think you will be fine, but if you're worried, heat up a bent paper clip with a lighter and "melt" a dozen or so tiny holes in it.
Doug


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sounds pretty good to me. The live plants will help freshen the air too. I think you will be fine, but if you're worried, heat up a bent paper clip with a lighter and "melt" a dozen or so tiny holes in it.
> Doug



I am naturally a worry wart. I have a week to see how the holes drilled do. Too bad the hygrometer I use, Flukers, keeps going out on me because it can't handle the misting and high humidity.


----------



## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

With the plants in the box it should be plenty to keep the air fresh with just a couple of small frogs.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Ok finished!! With the temporary habitat that is.

It's a tub with the dimensions I stated before. (13x12x9. about 6 gallons)

I put three broms in that I got from one of Arizona Tropical weekly sales. They are held up by a suction cup attached to a wire and the wire goes through the top part of the leaf. I put a small piece of cork bark under each in case the root and they will be easy to transfer to the permanent set up.

I put in two of each color film canister. The substrate is oraganic sphagnum and a couple layers of oak leaves.

I am not completely sure about the top yet since it's not clear but it has a convenient handle on it and fits very securely to the tub.

One concern I have is the wire attaching the broms to the suction cups, will it be ok with the humidity? Should I take them out if they start to rust?

Here's some pictures including a close up of how the broms are attached to the sides. Let me know what you guys think and if you have any other recomendations.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Looks good!
Doug


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Sounds pretty good to me. The live plants will help freshen the air too. I think you will be fine, but if you're worried, heat up a bent paper clip with a lighter and "melt" a dozen or so tiny holes in it.
> Doug


Make sure you poke the tiny holes at the substrate level that way you lessen the chance of a CO2 or other heavy gas build up. Opening the lid every couple days will help, but why risk it...


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

So I decided to make small holes by heating up a thick paper clip like mentioned before. I did 5 holes on each side of the tub, so 20 in all and I made 4 on the top. I only made 4 because there's tiny spaces where the handle is. Heres a pic of where they were placed. Will this be enough for the CO2 to espcape?


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Looks good to me.


----------



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Finshed the vert for these guys a few days ago. I decided to do my own "vertical kit." Here's the link to result, I'm very happy with it.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/62538-first-vertical.html


----------

