# 75 gallon Orange Sirensis Paludarium



## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Currently in the process of building an orange sirensis paludarium. Almost done, just need to add a branch covered in bromeliads to the right hand side, as well as a few bromeliads to the middle wood. I would also eventually like to get some riccia growing up the driftwood waterfall, but that's bottom of the priorities list right now.

Here are some pictures.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Nice paludarium. But.....and I hate to say this, there is FAR to much water area for that tank to be appropriate for ANY dart frog. Sorry, but I'm just telling it like it is. Treefrogs maybe....


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It's beautiful, but sorry, I have to agree with pdfcrazy.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Still have to build the other half of the land...

I know it's a lot of water, but I was trying to go off of tanks like these:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/8995/paludarium2.jpg

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/22922-80-gallon-paludarium-update.html

And naturally: 

http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t149/Energy1212/Easter20106-1.jpg

I also am trying to incorporate as many arboreal plants as possible, with lots of interconnecting branches and leaves of the different plants touching. The goal is to have the entire area underneath the land open for the fish, and there are many possible exits from the water for any frog that falls in. 

It seems from what I've read that the Ranitomeya species seem to be more arboreal, so I thought they'd be better suited to a tank like this than something like a Phyllobates frog or a tinc. If this tank really won't work out after I build all the other land area and add the rest of the branches with bromeliads, then I guess I could put the Orange sirensis in my 30 gallon terrarium (which has no water feature at all).


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I don't have a problem with the water...if you add more land, and hopefully some kinda background or maybe even sidegrounds (is that a word?) that are planted and/or rock and nice and climbable for the frogs....as long as the fish aren't big enough to eat the frogs and they can get out of the water easily then I think that amount of water is fine with enough suitable land/background to go with it...also your construction leaves a lot of way for frogs to get up under the land mass and possibly trapped, especially while working on the tank, refilling the water..etc...

I'm not saying this tank won't work the way it is..I just see it as less then ideal without at least some of the changes noted above...If it was a newt/fire bellied toad tank assuming temps were ok I'd say "awesome", but you are a bit off of what I would be comfortable keeping darts in.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Pdf's are very capable of drowning. Yes, thumbnails would be most appropriate for a semi aquaitic tank. But with a paludarium with a water feature, I would shoot for a minimum of 50% land area. And when I say land area, I mean substrate/leaves/etc. Yes, ranitomeya will utilize the upper areas, and they may not drown though I gaurentee you they will end up in that water at some point. But, where is their microfauna goign to live? WHere are the fruit flies going to hang out before they get eaten? Land area isnt always just about a spot for the frogs to crawl around on.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

pdfCrazy said:


> Pdf's are very capable of drowning. Yes, thumbnails would be most appropriate for a semi aquaitic tank. But with a paludarium with a water feature, I would shoot for a minimum of 50% land area. And when I say land area, I mean substrate/leaves/etc. Yes, ranitomeya will utilize the upper areas, and they may not drown though I gaurentee you they will end up in that water at some point. But, where is their microfauna goign to live? WHere are the fruit flies going to hang out before they get eaten? Land area isnt always just about a spot for the frogs to crawl around on.


Mostly rock tanks can work...but having more substrate like between the cracks where you can wash poop to when you mist so it can break down, and microfauna can live, like pdf says is a good thing


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Dendro Dave said:


> Mostly rock tanks can work...but having more substrate like between the cracks where you can wash poop to when you mist so it can break down, and microfauna can live, like pdf says is a good thing


That's actually what I'm basically trying to do. I have about 3 inches deep of ABG mix under that dense growth of plants on the left in a roughly 20"x12" area. There is about 1.5 inches of mainly oak leaf litter on top of the ABG mix. I also plan on adding a land area to the right, and plenty of branches etc.

I actually fed fruit flies to the fish in the tank last night and they seemed to congregate on the leaves of the birdsnest fern. I do plan on making banana feeding stations as well. It is quite fun to see the tetras snatch the fruitflies off the water's surface. The wild caught Columbian rams love them as well, and when I feed the rams the fruitflies, they display breeding behavior. Hopefully if I combine a cooler water change and some fruitflies I will get some F1 ram fry.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

I'm going to go on the hunt tonight for more driftwood. Also need to go gather up some more oak and magnolia leaves from around the yard to bake, and I plan on trying to find some spring peepers for a 20 gallon temperate vivarium I'm working on.

Also, would it be safe to seed this tank with isopods and springtails from my 40 gallon azureus tank. That tank is crawling with tropical pink springtails and dwarf purple isopods.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ya that is good...that should make the tank more suitable...

As for the seeding of bugs...ya as long as you are confident that the tank you are taking them from is clean and you won't be transporting any infections or what not I'd say go for it.

Oh ya fish love FF's... I had a betta in my 75 that lived for a couple years till the ice storm hit, never getting fed...just eating springtails and ffs that fell in the water.


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## sk8erdave (Aug 21, 2009)

even with the more land area like everyone else is mentioning i would be REALLY worried about the fish you have stocked in that tank eating you frogs legs if they ever hit the waters surface, those blue flame tetra(Hyphessobrycon columbianus) are mean and get rather large bigger then a toonie, Also your opaline gourami (Trichopodus trichopterus) is going to get large enough to take chomps at the legs too given chance. That Sailfin molly is going to appreciate some salt with time as well... I know all this has been geared towards the frogs but i do ALOT with fish so i figured i would throw this possibly unknown stuff out there  just trying to help
Dave


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

sk8erdave said:


> even with the more land area like everyone else is mentioning i would be REALLY worried about the fish you have stocked in that tank eating you frogs legs if they ever hit the waters surface, those blue flame tetra(Hyphessobrycon columbianus) are mean and get rather large bigger then a toonie, Also your opaline gourami (Trichopodus trichopterus) is going to get large enough to take chomps at the legs too given chance. That Sailfin molly is going to appreciate some salt with time as well... I know all this has been geared towards the frogs but i do ALOT with fish so i figured i would throw this possibly unknown stuff out there  just trying to help
> Dave


Good info on the fish....that reminds me of way back in the day as a kid when I got the little african aquatic frogs...they are about the size of a thumbnail dart frog and I saw a 3 inch gold fish inhale ones entire leg up to its thigh...got him loose, or he spit the frog out, I don't remember... but that had to be pretty stressful


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

sk8erdave said:


> even with the more land area like everyone else is mentioning i would be REALLY worried about the fish you have stocked in that tank eating you frogs legs if they ever hit the waters surface, those blue flame tetra(Hyphessobrycon columbianus) are mean and get rather large bigger then a toonie, Also your opaline gourami (Trichopodus trichopterus) is going to get large enough to take chomps at the legs too given chance. That Sailfin molly is going to appreciate some salt with time as well... I know all this has been geared towards the frogs but i do ALOT with fish so i figured i would throw this possibly unknown stuff out there  just trying to help
> Dave


Trust me, I know about the fish (been keeping fish for 12 years now, with 17 aquariums including a reef tank I recently tore down to make into the angel/butterfly tank, a shark tank, multiple freshwater planted tanks, CA/SA cichlids, flowerhorns, killifish, an indistructible domino damsel mini-FOWLR. I even used to breed freshwater stingrays, and I was really into the other monster fish like bichirs and knifefish for quite a while), I actually have tanks all set up for most of the fish (they're just here while I'm moving stuff around and before I get the frogs). The molly is a survivor feeder I felt bad for from my shark tank (all the others have been slowly picked off by the coral catshark, he wouldn't eat dead food when I first got him. I'm going to put the molly in the 187 gallon angel/butterflyfish tank I'm setting up). As for the gourami, the striped raphael catfish, and the columbian tetras, they are actually for my Mountain Horned Dragon's paludarium, I just have to reseal the base so it holds water (currently have a 5 gallon sitting in the bottom full of feeder minnows, and he hasn't touched any of them). The only fish that will be with the darts will be the neons, the killifish, the bulldog pleco, and the rams. I do plan on adding some more killifish though.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

When I see a thread pop up thats titled "Why can't I find my Orange Lamasii?" I won't even have to read it, I'll already know.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

pdfCrazy said:


> When I see a thread pop up thats titled "Why can't I find my Orange Lamasii?" I won't even have to read it, I'll already know.


Why is that? I already stated that the only fish will be the neons, the rams, a bulldog pleco, and killifish. What are those fish going to do to a dart frog (even a thumbnail)? The pleco couldn't hurt anything, the neons and rams spook easily and stay at the bottom, and the killifish in question is Chromaphyosemion bitaeniatum "ijebo ode". 

I am not going to risk the life of a beautiful (and expensive) animal for some $1 tetras and barbs and a $2 gourami and catfish. Honestly I care to much for my animals to do something stupid like put them in with something that could potentially eat them.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I wouldn't attempt keeping sirensis in this enclosure any more than I would attempt keeping neon tetras in a ceramic saucer in a frog vivarium: it's simply not conducive to their long term health and well-being in the enclosure. We're not dealing with stream frogs or chorus frogs here...sirensis has evolved to inhabit a fairly specific environmental niche, much of which does not consist of such heavily aquatic footprints. You seem to be attempting to make this one enclosure everything to everybody--I would recommend considering a completely separate enclosure for the frogs.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Just found a build thread and this is exactly the look I'm going for with this tank

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/87360-125-gallon-wall-paludarium.html


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Lets remember he has said he is adding more land..and this is a 75 gal right? So he has the room to do that...I know what he is trying to achieve, and while he isn't there yet (IMO), I see the potential for this to be a viable viv for Sirensis....he just has some work to do.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok this viv of mine, which was the first viv I ever did was built up on 2 concrete brick right angle corner pieces with aquarium gravel piled inbeteen them then with slabs of slate on top surrounded by drift wood as shoreline that would allow frogs to climb out of water easily, and then a few inches of subsrate on top of the slate shelves and sphagnum moss jammed every where then the viv was planted and pillow type mosses and whatever else was added. This viv ran the entire time I was in the hobby up till the ice storm a few years ago. I could probably clear out the clutter, fill it with water, replant it and be good to go right now.

Mostly similar to its first incarnation:









The Redux (It needs another Redux...I let it go to hell cuz it had no frogs)









The thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38981-46gal-bowfront-redux.html

Would that viv be so terrible for Sirensis? (My one tentative fear like with the OP's tank is frogs getting trapped but that is only likely to happen if the keeper pours a bunch of water in there to quick for them to get out of the cracks and/or scares them into hiding or futzes with the tank and buries them/crushes them instead of making sure all are in safe spots or just pulling them all for major remodeling work) I'd also like more stuff for them to climb on the background but I think 4 sirensis would work in that 46 the way it was.


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## KDuraiswamy (Dec 2, 2012)

fishfreak2009 said:


> Why is that? I already stated that the only fish will be the neons, the rams, a bulldog pleco, and killifish. What are those fish going to do to a dart frog (even a thumbnail)?


I don't think his issue is with the fish hurting the frogs; he's worried about the frogs accidentally falling into the water and drowning.

pdfCrazy, please correct me if I am wrong!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

KDuraiswamy said:


> I don't think his issue is with the fish hurting the frogs; he's worried about the frogs accidentally falling into the water and drowning.


That shouldn't be much of issue except for instances where they get trapped....but that only tends to happen when they are hiding and you fill the tank up rapidly with water and trap them in their hideout, or you bury them while screwing with the tank....or another frog drowns them

I've seen darts dive/swim, and I've seen them stay under and hold their breath for at least 5 if not closer to 10-15 minutes. 

Healthy frogs don't drown unless they are being held down by another frog, or some how trapped where they can't get out of the water, then either due to exhaustion and/or actual drowning (because they are trapped underwater) they die.

Frogs do have a tendency to soak when they are not healthy though...probably a defense mechanism to maximize hydration, possibly equalize temperature and basically give their body the best chance to resist/bounce back from whatever its ailment is. 

What happens though is a sick frog dies in the water, or its tank mate held its head under till it died, or became so exhausted/stressed it couldn't/wouldn't get out after the struggle...and the keeper comes in and sees it floating there and is like OMG it drowned...

No, it just died while following its natural instinct to maximize its chances (or was murdered! )...or it was so weak that it fell in and couldn't get out, maybe even lost consciousness at some point and drowned due to it not being a healthy able bodied frog...so again looks like the frog just fell in the water and died... technically maybe yes...but chances are every time that happens there is some extenuating circumstance like the frog was sick in the first place...or the keeper kept screwing with the tank or the frog and it couldn't or wouldn't come up and stressed/drowned itself to death.

Is it possible that a frog could fall in and just never find the easy ways out you tried to make for it?...ya...it is possible, but a meteor could strike your home too and the frog could be killed that way...unless you really screwed up the viv, or the frog was practically retarded...the odds of either are about the same (Yes I know, people do often screw up their vivs...and that example is an exaggeration)


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## KDuraiswamy (Dec 2, 2012)

Hmm, interesting. I'm not trying to argue with you, since I'm pretty new to dart frogs.  So would you say that the articles/posts that talk about dart frogs drowning are usually people jumping to a wrong conclusion?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

KDuraiswamy said:


> Hmm, interesting. I'm not trying to argue with you, since I'm pretty new to dart frogs.  So would you say that the articles/posts that talk about dart frogs drowning are usually people jumping to a wrong conclusion?


No your fine...I re read my last post or 2 and see that it might be interpreted as having a "tone"...and none was intended...I'm just up to late 

But ya that is basically my feeling on the subject...That the vast majority of frog "drownings" have some kind of extenuating circumstance surrounding them...usually the frog being on deaths door step before the actual drowning....likely to have died anyways. But keepers see dead frog in water and automatically jump to the conclusion it just drowned because it was a sucky swimmer...especially if they aren't real experienced and notice signs of stress/odd behavior or some other indication of illness..and honestly that often isn't easy to spot for experienced keeper...of most animals. They don't all yelp when they hurt, or make with the sad eyes and say..."My tummy hurts!"  ...especially herps/amphibians...and fish to I suppose, but every new person that comes into the hobby and does much reading/talking to people hears a frog drowning story, or someone says something about them not being aquatic or great swimmers and while often some or all of it is true...or has a grain of truth, it isn't the whole story and many many variables/circumstances/ etc..etc... are not considered or to easily dismissed. It is kinda like the vague/or very real idea that these things will shrivel up and die in 15 minutes if the humidity drops below 95%...it doesn't happen...unless your shooting it with a blow dryer, or threw it on a hot sidewalk on a sunny summer day...some people, some who are so afraid their frog will drown in a pond are nearly drowning the dang things on land as wet as they keep their tanks while having little ventilation/air exchange.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Well I stayed up all night remodeling the paludarium to add more land area, and in the process I removed all the fish that could potentially cause problems. I also filled the land area underneath with planted aquarium substrate. The water level is lower and there are a whole lot more places to climb out of the water as well. I just need to find a few more branches to have over the water area to mount broms.

Here is the update (water is still kind of cloudy)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry, Dave, but you don't *KNOW* this. You are presenting it as *fact*, when it is not. You are assuming this. Is it really so far fetched to think that frogs that are not adapted to live near, or on, the water, could possibly drown? Especially in a viv made up of what is basically floating islands? This seems like a lot of space where frogs could get lost and trapped under the land masses.

More to the point, is the *fact* that this is a completely unnatural environment for Sirensis. They do not live this close to the water. They certainly don't live on top of the water. We should be striving to recreate environments that are best for our frogs, not what we like to see for ourselves.
Sorry, but I stand by my opinion that this is not an ideal environment for Sirensis.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry, Dave, but you don't *KNOW* this. You are presenting it as *fact*, when it is not. You are assuming this. Is it really so far fetched to think that frogs that are not adapted to live near, or on, the water, could possibly drown? Especially in a viv made up of what is basically floating islands? This seems like a lot of space where frogs could get lost and trapped under the land masses.
> 
> More to the point, is the *fact* that this is a completely unnatural environment for Sirensis. They do not live this close to the water. They certainly don't live on top of the water. We should be striving to recreate environments that are best for our frogs, not what we like to see for ourselves.
> Sorry, but I stand by my opinion that this is not an ideal environment for Sirensis.


That is fair...Though I think If you'll re-read I didn't really present it as fact...At least I felt I made enough qualifying statements to avoid that or make up for it when I might have, but not all may agree. 

So let me just say it is true I don't know it, but I think it is pretty reasonable/plausible and most of the frog drowning stories I've heard involved potentially sick frogs, that had been soaking a lot or some actions by the keeper that could of resulted in them being trapped or stressed so much they wouldn't come up until they were to weak to make it out, or freaked out so much they wedged themselves into a place they wouldn't normally have gone and then got trapped. Of course if there is no water in tank that is one less avenue of risks...and a sick frog that might have recovered if it never had to fight for its life after falling in the water...would be 1 less dead frog. The question is how likely is it that frog would have recovered? 

These frogs are away from nature and many of nature's risks are removed, but we subject them to new risks, like wanting that pond in our tank, or not being patient and futzing with the tank or the frogs to much and stressing them out...I think overall the frogs are much safer in our vivs, and the question of how much risk or less then ideal circumstance is acceptable for the sake of aesthetics/display. For instance an all leaf litter tank with a bunch of rocks and drift wood just thrown in haphazardly might be best..might even look good, but some people like moss carpets...Are the frogs going to die? No (unless you are screwing up in other ways)...but more or all leaf litter would be more ideal even if it isn't aesthetically pleasing to some. I personally try to find the balance...or make up for lack of leaf litter with more hides/caves/tunnels and climbable/usable surface *(Or put less frogs in that size viv then others might)*. I also often shove leaf litter out of view in the back, but have my nice green moss carpet up front...*that is a way to compromise for the sake of aesthetics but still meet or surpass the frogs basic requirements.*

I do believe all things being equal that at least for darts it is unlikely they'd drown. Drop one in the middle of a lake, ya he probably isn't going to be a good enough swimmer to make it to shore...especially if he has to fight any kind of current. But I've seen them swim, and stay under...I scared a red galact into the water while adding a plant and I couldn't reach him easily so after a few seconds of trying I walked away and sat back and watch...far enough so he wouldn't see, and he stayed down for probably at least 10 minutes, crawled up the shore and went back to what he was doing. 

If I had kept screwing with him he may have wedged himself in where he couldn't get out or been so stressed/exhausted that he couldn't/wouldn't get out...and then died. I didn't panic, I just walked away and had faith that the frog could handle himself, of course by 10 minutes I was about jump up and rip the tank apart but then he crawled out...I knew enough about what they were capable of that I could give it a good chance to take care of itself before I had to step in and save it...or try to (hopefully not killing them in the process)...You have to weigh the risk vs potential reward...and more experienced/diciplined (in some ways) people tend to be better at that..know yourself, know your enemy...and know which is the bigger threat to you/the frog  

*Just so we are clear* ) no hard feelings, you make valid points pumilio), I share your opinion this environment is still not suitable, or at least less then ideal, and to far from idea for me personally to be comfortable right now....

I'm looking at his remodel and it is better, but still I would like to see some kind of background. There is still to much water and to many places for the frog to end up under stuff, and the risks of that are greater with a less experienced viv builder and/or frog keeper. *You gotta know what you personally can get away with, and realize it isn't always going to be what others can (know your limits, at any given time)...at least not intitially*....and while there probably is enough land that in another tank that would be enough for a few sirensis, I'd like to see that background added and well planted, very climbable for them and then I think they just won't have much reason to venture down very often and be at much less risk.

I'm ok with making a few compromises for aesthetics, as long as the frogs requirements are met. A lot of the aquascaped tanks look way prettier IMO then anything you'd see in nature except in a few rare instances, but obviously the fish don't care and do very well when those tanks are properly maintained because all the elements are there for their survival. Essentially I hold to the same principle for vivariums. 

So far I have not sought to recreate biotopes or anything like that...I just go for dense plantings, cool plants and a nice hardscape...and end up with something that may not look like their natural environment, but does invoke a natural feeling (IMO) but basically has all the elements they need... and they do well. 

I would point out that his tank is similar (but still needs modification IMO) to some 360 degree stump/island tanks with no backgrounds that are surrounded by water on 3-4 sides, only his is stretched out and we've ooh'd and awe'd at those tanks and I think some of them had thumbnail frogs in them. But on the other hand their construction techniques were more sound/conventional and often they were known to be experienced keepers/viv builders...so they get more leeway then some others. 

Also keep in mind that area of his tank while looking kinda small in pics, is in a 75 gal...he actually has well over the land/ground surface that you would find in a 20H or larger...it is just the way the pics look, the scale hard to see/feel. Also I think the rocks are hiding his substrate from view so you get this sense that there is no dirt in the tank when infact there is (I hope), Sill think it needs more climbable surface area though If thumb frogs are the goal, and a nice climbable/well planted background would make it so those frogs hardly venture down to the floor much...or at least close to the waters edge all the time. If they needed to bolt for cover they'd be more likely to go to the back/corners and less likely to go into the water which cuts way down on any risk.
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Op, the tanks you're trying to replicate are just built with more acceptable techniques and have more elements that reduce risk to the frogs...to the point most if not all are comfortable with those setups...your getting closer to that but I think the consensus is you still aren't quite there. Keep trying though! So much to learn, and so much fun to be had in this hobby, don't take any criticism to personally... Everyone has their own opinion of what is good/bad, acceptable/not acceptable...etc...etc... the trick is getting as much of your way as possible while giving them their way as much as possible...and hopefully everyone at least stays friends 

Sorry for writing a Novel !!!


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

I look at this tank after the re-model, sorry to say, but its suited for something like a Fire Belly Toad and not a Dart Frog.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

TDK said:


> I look at this tank after the re-model, sorry to say, but its suited for something like a Fire Belly Toad and not a Dart Frog.


I still tend to agree....I'm sure darts could live in that tank, but there are just to many avenues of risk still for me to be comfortable giving the thumbs up yet.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I must admit that I'm glad to see the area under the "floating islands?", filled in.


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## Ellylove (Jan 18, 2011)

Your little German Blue Rams are gorgeous! Why not have this tank be a showcase tank for them (they'd probably appreciate a little more room/floor space anyways) and do a separate tank for your frogs?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I agree with the last few posts: this is not a great environment for the fish OR the frogs at this point. Even with slightly more land, the enclosure (with all that water) is going to be extremely humid and swamp-like. Again, not the sort of environment that sirensis are accustomed to...but perhaps a _Bombina sp._ or similar species would do well in.

For the amount of money and design that has gone into this current tank, an entirely separate 20 gal tank probably could have been ready for some sirensis, and would be MUCH more conducive to their longterm care.


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## a628627 (Jan 24, 2013)

What is the plant in the fourth picture on the first post? That plant looks like just what I need for a red eyed tree frog tank I am building.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

skylsdale said:


> I agree with the last few posts: this is not a great environment for the fish OR the frogs at this point. Even with slightly more land, the enclosure (with all that water) is going to be extremely humid and swamp-like. Again, not the sort of environment that sirensis are accustomed to...but perhaps a _Bombina sp._ or similar species would do well in.
> 
> For the amount of money and design that has gone into this current tank, an entirely separate 20 gal tank probably could have been ready for some sirensis, and would be MUCH more conducive to their longterm care.


Those are good points, *and something I didn't catch*... I would run somewhere around 50/50 screen top, maybe not quite that much depending on my general home condition/region of the country I live in, or at least get a fan on an interval timer probably, for a tank similar to this....but still the other points made about its suitability stand so I don't think the 50/50 top/fans themselves would be enough to make this suitable for Sirensis. 

My 46 bow that I posted pics of earlier had a 3inch or so wide strip of screen running the length of the tank, and I run a ceiling fan a lot in my living room at least on low...which helps with air exchange in my tanks.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

I actually have a 2 inch vent across the back of the enclosure. Humidity in the tank measures about 85%. The glass all fogged up was because I had literally just mister everything. Even with the changes and the branches I will be adding for bromeliads you still think this couldn't house 3 orange sirensis? This is setup very similar to that 125 gallon I posted a link to earlier and all the frogs in that tank seem to be doing very well (even breeding). I just don't get what is so different between the two besides the branches with bromeliads (which I am adding, I just have to go pick up the bromeliads).


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Dendro Dave said:


> That is fair...Though I think If you'll re-read I didn't really present it as fact...At least I felt I made enough qualifying statements to avoid that or make up for it when I might have, but not all may agree.
> 
> So let me just say it is true I don't know it, but I think it is pretty reasonable/plausible and most of the frog drowning stories I've heard involved potentially sick frogs, that had been soaking a lot or some actions by the keeper that could of resulted in them being trapped or stressed so much they wouldn't come up until they were to weak to make it out, or freaked out so much they wedged themselves into a place they wouldn't normally have gone and then got trapped. Of course if there is no water in tank that is one less avenue of risks...and a sick frog that might have recovered if it never had to fight for its life after falling in the water...would be 1 less dead frog. The question is how likely is it that frog would have recovered?
> 
> ...


 I am adding a lot more climbing space for the frogs with branches and bromeliads. The ground is filled with soil and then leaf litter. I will try to pick up some cork tomorrow as soon as I get off work for the background. The land area measures about 35"x12" and there is about 12" of air space above the land, as well as all the air space that will be filled with bromeliads. I see people breeding thumbnails in 10 gallon tanks, and just the land area is almost double the volume of a 10 gallon tank.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fishfreak2009 said:


> I actually have a 2 inch vent across the back of the enclosure. Humidity in the tank measures about 85%. The glass all fogged up was because I had literally just mister everything. Even with the changes and the branches I will be adding for bromeliads you still think this couldn't house 3 orange sirensis? This is setup very similar to that 125 gallon I posted a link to earlier and all the frogs in that tank seem to be doing very well (even breeding). I just don't get what is so different between the two besides the branches with bromeliads (which I am adding, I just have to go pick up the bromeliads).


I think, part of the problem is your basic construction of piling up stuff to create your landmass which has the unwanted side effect of creating so many nooks/crannies in and around the water areas that people fear frogs getting trapped in them, or up underneath those layers of rock/substrate...Like how we are careful to seal up a false bottom so no frogs can get under it.

The points people have made have been good and valid...but some of it I think might be that you are fighting a battle of perception and/some preconceived (not the bad kind of preconceived necessarily...just preconceived, no tone or connotation implied) and standard practices (But standard for a reason usually).

Here are some of those issues:
*1.* Backgrounds are fairly typical in a viv...you don't have one, and your making a viv for what is generally considered an arboreal species. That in itself isn't a deal breaker but It is something we aren't used to seeing much except in Amateur/simplistic vivs for larger more ground dwelling darts or something like a retic that is known to favor the forrest floor a bit more... basically just substrate, a drainage layer (hopefully) and plants in a glass box....or they are done in an artsy very detailed aesthetic, usually by experienced builders using sound/proven construction techniques, and in generally large viv. (which you do have a good sized tank at least)

*2.* You have a lot of water:
You have a lot of water in a viv for an arboreal frog, and a very small frog at that. You have that water in a tank constructed in such a way that bad things are more likely to happen then they would be in other vivs using more standard methods. So people are concerned. 

*3.* I didn't go back and re-read so correct me if I'm wrong, but you are both fairly new to darts and viv construction, and what you are attempting to emulate in your first viv is something very ambitious:

Even if you can do it there are all kinds of little mistakes and a learning process that new keepers/viv builders go through...a process of evolution, and during that process for quite some time...the first few years even, your frogs are at more risk then say they might be in the collection of someone who has been doing this for 10 years, because they've just acquired a ton of experience and hard to quantify expertise and good habits (hopefully)...that just prevents them from doing risky things without them even having to think about it...or they are more likely to catch themselves sooner when they do make mistakes. 

You will have to be very careful to make sure all your frogs are somewhere you know is safe every time you add much water to that tank, or move anything around or fear of shifting substrate, or even collapse of some supporting layers of strata...which could be bad for a frog in the wrong place. You have less then ideal conditions for a large population of microfauna...a background would provide much more area for microfauna to live/breed and for frogs to feed in. That is a great cushion/security blanket for new keepers/viv builders...leaves more margin for any errors in your husbandry...If you don't have that you are starting with a handicap...it isn't that it isn't possible, it is just that it is harder and more risky for the frogs.

Essentially you are building what would be an experimental tank, and you're fairly new (right?)...an experiment with Sirensis, and if you are new to darts and viv building that is just something a lot of people will not be comfortable with, and IMO that is a pretty valid position. You'd be testing their ability to adapt/thrive in an environment that is very different from their natural one and be doing it in a viv that is constructed in a way that it poses more potential hazards to the frog then usual or necessary even in a viv of that basic style/aesthetic.

Basically many of us could make that viv how you want it, and similar to how it looks/feels now, but do it in a way where there was very very little chance that frogs could be trapped anywhere, or get up under the main land portions, but it would basically require a lot of modification, or starting from scratch. 

Personally if you had a nice planted background joined to that land mass, and especially if you have nice planted side-grounds (some people don't like that look) I feel you'd have a viable tank for 3-4 sirensis(but you may not be the best person being new to run that kinda viv)...I'm making that statement as if it were my tank, or some of the other fairly experienced keepers/viv makers tank. It would be much less risky for them or I to make that tank and put those frogs in it then for someone less experienced...even if it is the same tank/same frogs. Trust me even if you think you've got a handle on stuff...and mostly do...there is still so much to learn. I winged it mostly when I started out...it mostly went well, but there are a lot of things I did that I wouldn't do now, and some things I did that others might say NO NO NO..but I found, at least the way I did them it was fine...but other times it wasn't fine....that is the process we all go through. But generally it is smart not to be overly ambitious or handicap yourself at the start...and I think that is what many feel is happening here, and I mostly agree but see what you are trying to do an know that it can work...just that it is riskier and new people aren't the best to try getting away with it if anyone is going to try it..*and there are valid arguments for not trying at all. *

Anyways sorry another novel...and to be clear I'm not trying to get down on you man. I have no reason to believe that you don't care about your animals, and I know what it is like to want to go full blast right from the start or try something new but meet opposition. I'm just trying to give you constructive feedback with the assumption/hope you'll make good decisions and carefully consider where you go from here...even if you continue to go in the same basic direction....tread that direction very carefully  ...and good luck!


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

This certainly isn't my first vivarium, or even paludarium. While I may be fairly new to pdfs, I used to raise many other kinds of frog including spring peepers, which seem almost identical in care to many dart frogs save the humidity.

As for holes between the rocks, how are they any different than cracks in a background? Im always incredibly careful about moving things with animals in the exhibit ( a friend of mine raises hots and I help him move them and I used to raise pygmy chameleons and baby pygmy chams are like brown pdfs size wise). Besides that the cracks between the rocks are filled with planted aquarium substrate and moss (which is what I used as a drainage layer). How is that any different than using hydroton? If anything its safer since the gaps between pieces are smaller. 

Im not getting the frogs until May, so I will be installing a cork background into the tank before then (hopefully tomorrow).


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fishfreak2009 said:


> This certainly isn't my first vivarium, or even paludarium. While I may be fairly new to pdfs, I used to raise many other kinds of frog including spring peepers, which seem almost identical in care to many dart frogs save the humidity.
> 
> As for holes between the rocks, how are they any different than cracks in a background? Im always incredibly careful about moving things with animals in the exhibit ( a friend of mine raises hots and I help him move them and I used to raise pygmy chameleons and baby pygmy chams are like brown pdfs size wise). Besides that the cracks between the rocks are filled with planted aquarium substrate and moss (which is what I used as a drainage layer). How is that any different than using hydroton? If anything its safer since the gaps between pieces are smaller.
> 
> Im not getting the frogs until May, so I will be installing a cork background into the tank before then (hopefully tomorrow).


Well that is good, I would suggest more proven techniques in the future though...you can accomplish the same thing with less headaches and not much/sometimes less work...and risk. 

Glad to hear about the background, might I suggest like cork tubes cut at angles and siliconed to the glass as planters...and perhaps this thread of mine about making backgrounds will interest you...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-mosaic-living-drip-wall-pond-method-how.html

As for cracks/crevices at ground/water level, well it is the water mainly that is the issue...frogs will dart into the water then up into those cracks when startled...potentially wedging themselves in there so you can't get to them without tearing apart some of the tank, and that puts them in danger if there is a collapse or something....in a background there is no water for them to drown in, and you have more time/margin for error in those rare events when they do get stuck or you need to reach them for some reason but they are hiding...and even backgrounds can have an issue. People have had frogs catch their feet in treefern panels and die...rare but it happens. And there is the issue of keeping the water area topped off without flooding an hidey hole that some frog snuck into. Are you going to pull your frogs every time you fill the viv with more water?...or just try to keep an eye on them and make sure they are accounted for (I do both, depends on the situation)...but I think what it boils down to in your case is people just see to many little risks (some may think a few of them are major)...that all adds up to to much risk in their mind...and most of these people are pretty solid, and I tend to agree with them. 

Most people seal off their false bottom/or hydroton/leca drainage layer with a mesh or something...this helps prevent soil compaction into the drainage layer and less build up of anaerobic bacteria (which could especially be an issue in a viv like yours), while also having the benefit of sealing that area so frogs can't get up under there...and bad things happen to them. 

Like I said, I don't think your going to flat out kill your frogs if you put them in that tank...they may be fine...might even be likely to be fine, but your being riskier then many here are comfortable with. This is a different community then the other reptile/amphib hobbies... Better? Worse? ...I don't know. But I know that a lot of our more active/vocal members (and probably most of the ones that aren't) take this stuff real serious and most are pretty conservative in their positions on husbandry...and when you go against the grain your going to rile some feathers. We don't do designer animals, we don't mix morphs, population localities, ultra frog safety is a big concern, we frown on mixing in most instances...some frown on it period, to the point I'm surprised they don't curse god for putting more then one species on the earth   

And like in your case, If you went ahead as planned I'd be like "Well I wouldn't do it, but hey they are his frogs and his call...hope it works out"...I wouldn't shun you or anything...at least not without further evidence you deserved it  *BUT*... others might be like "That guy is a moron, well I guess I know not to sell him frogs etc...etc.."..and then you've made a bad impression and lost their respect right from the start...and will have to work hard to get it back. People who get all huffy/puffy when we tell em things they don't wanna hear and don't follow sound advice tend to not be popular...and that can stick in the minds of many for a very long time....seen it happen, like with joe blow who put 20 frogs of different morphs/species in a 20=30 gal or something...That thread was fun  (I don't think you're "that guy"...and I pray you never are!  )

That community stuff may or may not matter to you, just keep in mind we wanna see you succeed...and if you're going to be involved in darts and the community sometimes you gotta go with the flow and respect the status quo...at least till you demonstrate to people that you can go a little nutz in a reasonable and thought out manner  

...And you've been cool IMO, not getting all huffy/puffy disrespectful because some people may be telling you what you don't want to hear...so kudos to you for that...we can always use more of that around here  

New people aren't given the same leeway/type of leeway as others that have been around awhile and demonstrated a concern for the animals and shown/seem to have reasonable husbandry practices and can make accommodations to alleviate or at least lessen peoples concerns. You seem to have shown a willingness to do that just by listening, and then like the adding more land plan....thats good stuff, roll like that and all will probably be fine...but still some people aren't going to be happy with you unless some major revisions are done to that viv, or you switch to newts/fire bellied toads or something else more suited to that environment as it is now. 

Anyways ramble ramble, bla bla bla, la de da....I wish you the best of luck, and hope we don't drive you away


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Ya, I've been thinking long and hard about the tank and have decided to just pull all the fish and do a kitty litter background. I am going to do a proper false bottom and just have a small pool for them to dip in if so inclined. I guess the thread should be renamed 75 gallon orange sirensis terrarium.

Frog safety comes first and foremost, then comes the aesthetics.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fishfreak2009 said:


> Ya, I've been thinking long and hard about the tank and have decided to just pull all the fish and do a kitty litter background. I am going to do a proper false bottom and just have a small pool for them to dip in if so inclined. I guess the thread should be renamed 75 gallon orange sirensis terrarium.
> 
> Frog safety comes first and foremost, then comes the aesthetics.


That is awesome dude...a lot of people don't handle a thread like this in that way 

I think you'll be happier with it in the long run, I know I never regretted it. The next Redux of that 46 bow I posted will likely be a complete overall and false bottom build...That viv worked and kept animals alive for years...but it was my first and never really up to my standards except for that last remodel that had the blue betta in pond, I was ok with the viv at that point...but I let it go to hell when I didn't have any animals for it. 

...and I think I had a few close calls with animals in it that wouldn't have happened in a more standard build...in fact, I just remembered... I'm pretty sure I killed my paddle tail newt by burying him during some remodel work a few years back, because he never came out in day time and had hides way back up under the land mass...and after that session of remodeling I never saw him again  And he had been fat and healthy and lived in that viv for a couple years till then ...So even with newts bad things can happen in a viv with that construction methodology...can't believe after all the long posts about this, I just now remembered that...god I'm getting old...*my mind is going...my mind is going Dave! (Hal 2000)*


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Well, I finished the entire kitty litter background. There is no longer any sort of pond in the tank, and I moved my azureus from the 40 gallon they were in (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/94620-first-vivarium.html) to the 30 gallon tank I set up and was planning to use for Epipedobates anthonyi (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...0-gallon-epipedobates-anthonyi-terrarium.html) since I scavenged all of the plants and wood from their 40 gallon to go into this one. I still want to add a few bromeliads, just have to figure out where once I get them. I am extremely happy with the results. I'll post pictures later when I wake up for work (3rd shift is a killer  ). The entire back wall and the left side are kitty litter floor to ceiling, and the tank has been seeded with tropical pink springs, tropical white springs, purple isopods, and the native grey isopods I find under the rocks in my backyard.

I hope you find the tank much more suitable when I post pictures.


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## a628627 (Jan 24, 2013)

No one knows what that plant is in the fourth picture?


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Are you talking about the birdsnest fern?


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Here are pictures of the finished terrarium (minus the bromeliads I still need to get).


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## Athena (Mar 20, 2013)

Looks fantastic! I'm sure they'll love it  Although I suppose the humans enjoy the gorgeous flowers more than the frags do


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## Keister (Mar 5, 2013)

That looks a lot better having all land instead of the majority of water!


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## a628627 (Jan 24, 2013)

fishfreak2009 said:


> Are you talking about the birdsnest fern?


It is the one that has the largest leaves in the original tank. I don't know if that is a birdsnest fern or not. That's why I am asking.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

This looks much better suited for your Sirensis. Go easy with the misting. At least for a few months, you may wish to stick to hand misting. Kitty litter backgrounds are prone to absorbing too much water, turning to mush, and collapsing, if you are not careful.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> This looks much better suited for your Sirensis. Go easy with the misting. At least for a few months, you may wish to stick to hand misting. Kitty litter backgrounds are prone to absorbing too much water, turning to mush, and collapsing, if you are not careful.


I only have a hand mister and I mist once per day. The tank is just all wet in the first picture because I was trying to mist the dirt off the glass.


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

So a lot has changed in this tank since the last update. Not long after I moved in the orange sirensis, the 30 gallon tank began leaking. I put the azureus in the 75 gallon with the sirensis and watched very carefully ever since. So far there are no problems. They all eat well, and I just discovered my first clutch of orange sirensis eggs (my first ever clutch of dart frog eggs actually)! I remodeled the tank when the azureus went in, and added some bromeliads and a jewel orchid from Glass Box Tropicals. I also added a small pond. So far the kitty litter seems to be holding up extremely well I might add.

Without further ado, pictures!


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