# Vanzolinii egg problems



## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

I have a 2.1 trio of vanzolinii, and they've laid two clutches of eggs so far, and there were three eggs in each clutch. In both clutches, one egg was infertile and the other two developed for less than a week before dying and getting moldy.

They're in a 20 gallon tall (20x20x10 inches), and they're fed three times a week. The flies are dusted with Dendrocare every feeding. The female is over a year old and has bred before, and the males are less than a year old.

Any ideas as to what's going on and/or what I can do? Is this normal?


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

1. Get yourself some repashy calcium plus and repashy vit a. Dust with calcium plus every feeding and supplement vit a once or twice a month. 

2. How old is the dendrocare? 6 months is all you get from supplements. Toss it in the garbage when you get the repashy products. 

3. How do you know the female has bred before? Was she sold to you as proven?

4. How old are the males? Less than a year old could mean they are 3 months old  If they are young, new breeders, they may be simply not getting it right yet.


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

The dendrocare is about 2 months old. The female was sold as proven, and the males are of unknown age (They were raised by their parents and not pulled until I got them) but both call regularly. They both appear to be full size.


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## froggorf (Nov 22, 2008)

erikm said:


> 1. Get yourself some repashy calcium plus and repashy vit a. Dust with calcium plus every feeding and supplement vit a once or twice a month.
> 
> 2. How old is the dendrocare? 6 months is all you get from supplements. Toss it in the garbage when you get the repashy products.
> 
> ...


Why are you suggesting he throws away his 2 month old dendrocare? Many (including myself) have had just as much, if not more, luck using dendrocare as a primary supplement. At very least you could consider alternating between both calcium plus and dendrocare as your primary supplement. 

I do think adding Vit A to the mix once a month is a good idea. The age could be a factor but really I'd just be patient, once they start breeding regularly you likely will have more eggs/tads than you know what to do with, no need to rush them.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

I did not suggest he throw away his "2 month old" dendrocare. He did not mention how old the product was and since many people are not aware that supplements go bad, I figured it would be best to toss it if it was old. Notice I asked how old it was?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Yeah but the way you worded it could be interpreted as "once you get repashy, toss the dendrocare in the garbage anyway".

This is the second time I've seen you advocating throwing out dendrocare (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/265418-eggs-wont-develop.html#post2562250) and I have to admit it's a bit puzzling. Do you have access to some sort of information about it that we all don't? If not, it just seems wasteful to tell people to throw it out and replace it with what is simply your own preferred supplement. Dendrocare is fine. Repashy is fine. It is acceptable to use either as a primary supplement. We could argue about nuances to them, but none of it is worth throwing out either of them.

All he needs to do is add Vitamin A to his rotation.


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## alogan (Jan 7, 2013)

I think everyone has given you some solid advice. I would add the vitamin A, it really does make a difference. It took me a while to realize this. Also at the age your frogs are at give them a couple tries to get it right. I've had frogs get it right the first time, and also some that have taken a couple more times to figure it out. I've been lucky in that most of my frogs got it correct the first time, but as young frogs being patient helps. I have a young group of vanzolinis and they just laid 14 eggs last week and about 8 are developing. The next clutch isn't looking as great, but they will figure it out and then I'll have too many vanzolinis lol.


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## cmk (Aug 29, 2014)

Not trying to divert this off topic, doesn't dendrocare already have vit A in it?


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

cmk said:


> Not trying to divert this off topic, doesn't dendrocare already have vit A in it?


That was going to me my next question 
Anyone?


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

I think Calcium Plus has some Vitamin A, too--but people still give a monthly dusting of Vitamin A Plus. It gives a solid boost for breeding. 

I believe that the Vitamin A in supplements like Repashy and Dendrocare is still present in high enough concentrations for maintaining general health (not assuming breeding). However, it has to compete with the other vitamins/minerals for uptake. Something like Vitamin A Plus is a little more...Unadulterated. Somebody correct me, if I'm wrong.

EDIT: Yes, Dendrocare also has Vitamin A. Sorry, I forgot to mention that...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cmk said:


> Not trying to divert this off topic, doesn't dendrocare already have vit A in it?


Yes it does. One of the drawbacks to the Dendrocare is that is doesn't contain a diversity of carotenoids that are known to be found in amphibian tissues but this could easily be rectified by adding some SuperPig to it. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jjl said:


> I believe that the Vitamin A in supplements like Repashy and Dendrocare is still present in high enough concentrations for maintaining general health (not assuming breeding). However, it has to compete with the other vitamins/minerals for uptake. Something like Vitamin A Plus is a little more...Unadulterated. Somebody correct me, if I'm wrong.


There were a number of anecdotal observations when people switched from supplements that contained only beta carotene as the source of vitamin A where the frogs were showing signs of deficiency that those supplements by themselves didn't reverse the symptoms in a short period of time. The addition of the straight vitamin A between 1-4 times a month resolved these symptoms. 
Continuing with the anecdotal reports once to twice a month seems to prevent recurrance even when the frogs are allowed to breed frequently. 

Additionally it's been reported anecdotally that frogs that were on it for at least several months before breeding didn't develop symptoms. As a result the hobby seems to have settled into a once to twice a month additional vitamin A to ensure that the frogs have sufficient vitamin A. 

Those additional carotenoids I mentioned in the Repashy product do show up in the frog's tissues and its been well demonstrated that some taxa such as birds, invertebrates, fish, reptiles that those items are important for multiple functions so they should be in the diet regardless of the supplement source of preformed vitamin. The exact carotenoids that the frogs use normally as the source for previtamin A isn't known but other carotenoids than beta carotene can be used as the source can be converted to vitamin A by other taxa. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

Ed said:


> There were a number of anecdotal observations when people switched from supplements that contained only beta carotene as the source of vitamin A where the frogs were showing signs of deficiency that those supplements by themselves didn't reverse the symptoms in a short period of time. The addition of the straight vitamin A between 1-4 times a month resolved these symptoms.
> Continuing with the anecdotal reports once to twice a month seems to prevent recurrance even when the frogs are allowed to breed frequently.
> 
> Additionally it's been reported anecdotally that frogs that were on it for at least several months before breeding didn't develop symptoms. As a result the hobby seems to have settled into a once to twice a month additional vitamin A to ensure that the frogs have sufficient vitamin A.
> ...


Thanks for sharing this information, Ed! My apologies; after looking at my other post, it looks like I was implying the extra Vitamin A supplement wasn't necessary. I meant to convey that Vitamin A is an important part of any rotation, and products like Vitamin A Plus are a "stronger" source than something like Calcium Plus or Dendrocare alone. Sorry about that.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> Yeah but the way you worded it could be interpreted as "once you get repashy, toss the dendrocare in the garbage anyway".
> 
> This is the second time I've seen you advocating throwing out dendrocare (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/265418-eggs-wont-develop.html#post2562250) and I have to admit it's a bit puzzling. Do you have access to some sort of information about it that we all don't? If not, it just seems wasteful to tell people to throw it out and replace it with what is simply your own preferred supplement. Dendrocare is fine. Repashy is fine. It is acceptable to use either as a primary supplement. We could argue about nuances to them, but none of it is worth throwing out either of them.
> 
> All he needs to do is add Vitamin A to his rotation.


I apologize for providing wrong information. For some reason or another, I though dendrocare did not contain Vit A. Perhaps I am thinking of another supplement. My apologies.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jjl said:


> Thanks for sharing this information, Ed! My apologies; after looking at my other post, it looks like I was implying the extra Vitamin A supplement wasn't necessary. I meant to convey that Vitamin A is an important part of any rotation, and products like Vitamin A Plus are a "stronger" source than something like Calcium Plus or Dendrocare alone. Sorry about that.


No need to apologize there appeared to be a generalized question about the supplements so I was responding to to that, you were just the most convenient for me to cite while working backwards in the thread. 

There are only two obvious negatives to Dendrocare. The first is the variety of carotenoids and the second is that it has to be shipped over here from Europe. If it is shipped by air that isn't a problem but if it is shipped over here via a slower method it can be a problem due to the risk of the conditions it is exposed to in transit. As a *hypothetical example if it sits in an area that is >85 F then that is going to cause the lifespan of the supplements to be less. 

Dendrocare is a fine supplement. Just add super pig to your rotation. 


Some comments 

Ed*


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

Thanks! I'll definitely be getting some Super Pig.

In other news, I caught one of the males transporting a tadpole today! I guess they've figured it out


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