# Vitamin shelf life (split from Code of Ethics)



## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months. I will get new vitamins every six months!


7. To whatever extent possible and wherever appropriate, I will try and base my husbandry practices on scientific evidence...

I've heard the quoted mantra many times. The number basically appears pulled out of a hat. The chemicals lose potency over time (degradation dictated by some half-life equation or another) but, as far as I know, absolutely do not become dangerous. Where do we get 6 months?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If I remember correctly the number is based on some work by Dr. Donoghue (author of the Nutrition chapter In Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery). I would have to look for the actual reference to the time line (this may have been via a communication) but I believe is based on the original recommended time line (later on it was recommended to replace every three months or so) for discarding and replacing the supplements produced by Walkabout Farms as analysis showed that after that point, the exposure to moisture and heat would have started to degrade the product. 


Ed


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Thanks Ed. I'm glad that number didn't just come from the air.

Many people are under the impression that the vitamins become toxic if left for too long; which I think is a total fallacy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well they don't become toxic. As the vitamins catalyze the oxidations of each other the ratios go out of balance and there maybe insufficient amounts of the vitamins to support the metabolic processes. 


I was probably the person who started the six months based on the information from either Dr. Donoghue directly or what was on the products we recieved from her. 


Ed


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Nate, Ed,

I split this out from the code of ethics because it's probably a topic in its own right.

Bill


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I am wondering if the higher humidity in some of our frog rooms reduce it even more. I try to change mine out every 3 months or so.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes, the humidity does shorten its shelflife as does light and heat. (see Reptile Medicine and Surgery). 

Ed


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

just curious, based on the info you were using, is 6 months an average or a maximum? i.e., could it be extended if stored in ideal conditions, or is that the best you can get out of it?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The shelf life can be extended by storage under ideal conditions such as refrigeration. (Mader's book again for the reference). 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

how long is safe in the fridge? Or is it still reccomended to replace every six months.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This depends on the forumlation and the authors of several studies were actually threatened with lawsuits if they published the names of the vitamins in the studies... so actual retention data is not available for them at this time. (I can try to track down this if necessary as I believe it was written in an article). 

The actual shelf life depends on many things including the time since manufacture, conditions under which it was transported from the manufacturer to the distributer to the wholeseller (if there is one) to the retailer to the consumer's home. If the supplement sat in a delivery truck for several days during August while transported cross country, it will have a shorter shelflife than one that was shipped during the winter months. The same can be said of the storage conditions at the various stages. I have been in Pet Stores where stock to be placed on shelves was stored in non-temperature controlled upstairs attics or back rooms. 

Because of this I personally would recommend that even if the unused amount is stored in the refrigerator, to replace it at least every 6-9 months. 

Ed 
(dang, I should be investing in these companies... then at least I would have a real reason to recommend the turnover).


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Something to be considered when storing powders in the fridge:
As soon as you take it out, it will start to condense moisture, so get what you need quick and get the cap back on, pronto!

I store mine in the kitchen spice cabinet (ah the joy of being a bachelor).


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## Squash713 (Feb 18, 2007)

Would it be useful to freeze in smaller batches, then pull out a baggie every two or three months? 

(I only have a pair of frogs, and I anticipate I'll use less than 10% of the container before I need to chuck it--seems a waste.)


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## O2 Plastics (Jun 28, 2006)

?'s.

So a sealed container should be free from moisture etc. Why are there expiration dates on the package if the clock doesn't start ticking until the package is opened? 

Not to voice a dissenting opinion, but is there a possibility that its just a method to make more money? Or just covering their butts from potential liabilty from an unknowing jury? From experience, people spend more money for an animal believing that its somehow delicate, when in reality between the owner and the animal only the animal has a chance in a hundred of surviving in the wild.

'Fer instance. 100% silicone at walmart $2/tube. 1/5 the amount at a petstore for 'Aquarium silicone' $10. Playsand at lowes that's safe for my baby to eat, $3/60lbs. Same sand at a pet store $20/5lbs.

But in reality, I'd be interested in a good scientific read.

*edit*

Done some reading, vitamins do in fact expire according to govt. testing. But same test showed that if stored properly the can be good for up to 9 years past the expiration date. And it says that refrigeration isn't the way to store them, just dry and cool. Sounds like my frog room, 20% humidity and comfy year round.

Further reading says the expiration date is how long they guarantee full potency, after which some degradation can occur. But I can't imagine they are full potency today and only 10% and useless tomorrow. I mean milk is good for a week past the exp. date. Even if it dropped 50%, why not supplement every day instead of every other? It just seems a shame to spend $40 on supplements every few months and only use $1.50 worth.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

If theres only so much you can do about how long its good for, they should be selling it in much smaller quantities, as the majority of people only have a few animals they're feeding, and don't need anywhere near a whole jar in 6 months. But with how they sell it now, we should be buying a jar of each at our local meetings and splitting them 10 ways into those tiny ziplock baggies, and buying them by the baggie. Just don't get pulled over on the ride home. :shock:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'll have to come back to this... but the potency of the vitamins and the supplements depends on how it is packaged and forumulated. For example the shelf life of human vitamins that are in a pill form tend to be much more stable as the oxygen is excluded from penetrating the pill. Exposures to warming cooling cycles degrades this and allows moisture to accumulate (such as pulling it out of the fridge and using it and then putting it back) also degrading the pills. 

With herp supplements, they are packed in at best a loose aggregate which allows ready penetration of the supplement by oxygen and moisture. 

The degredation issue was known to at least a number of exotic animal nutritionists and vets in the 1990s as shown by at least the comment in the Nutrition chapter in Mader's original text. (this data is not propounded by the supplement industry overall). 

Got to run to work will come back to this later... 

Ed


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## O2 Plastics (Jun 28, 2006)

gm_kevin said:


> If theres only so much you can do about how long its good for, they should be selling it in much smaller quantities, as the majority of people only have a few animals they're feeding, and don't need anywhere near a whole jar in 6 months. But with how they sell it now, we should be buying a jar of each at our local meetings and splitting them 10 ways into those tiny ziplock baggies, and buying them by the baggie. Just don't get pulled over on the ride home. :shock:


There are no meetings where I'm at. Wyoming is so barren I have to drive 1/2 a day just to see my wife. Last year I think I actually saw another living person, but it may have been a hallucination brought on by heat and loneliness. Wyoming, where men are men and the sheep are scared


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "So a sealed container should be free from moisture etc. Why are there expiration dates on the package if the clock doesn't start ticking until the package is opened? "endsnip

Because they are not packaged with an inert gas and the ingredients themselves self catalyze the oxidation increasing its rate of occurance. (see Mader's text). Exposure to heat and moisture in transit increases this rate. 
In additon, expiration dates are not required by the FDA on vitamins in the USA (which is why some do not place them on the container).. 

snip "Done some reading, vitamins do in fact expire according to govt. testing. But same test showed that if stored properly the can be good for up to 9 years past the expiration date. And it says that refrigeration isn't the way to store them, just dry and cool. Sounds like my frog room, 20% humidity and comfy year round. "endsnipo

See comments in earlier post above on formulation and stability. 


snip "Further reading says the expiration date is how long they guarantee full potency, after which some degradation can occur. But I can't imagine they are full potency today and only 10% and useless tomorrow. I mean milk is good for a week past the exp. date. Even if it dropped 50%, why not supplement every day instead of every other? It just seems a shame to spend $40 on supplements every few months and only use $1.50 worth"endsnip

Because the degredation changes the ratio of vitamin A to D3 to E which is a major cause of MBD. If the ratios are changed then the frequency of supplementation doesn't matter as the ratio is always going to be incorrect. In fact increasing the frequency of feeding may contribute to hypervitaminosis (see Mader's book again (new edition)). 

More comments later 

Ed


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

> It just seems a shame to spend $40 on supplements every few months and only use $1.50 worth


Who spends $40 on vitamins??? That's crazy. I just ordered my Rep-Cal both calcium and vitamins, and it was $15 with shipping. Hardly close to $40. So spending $15 every 6 months on vitamins is not bad at all.

http://www.amazon.com/Rep-Cal-Calcium-V ... 382&sr=8-1


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

People need to share vitamins. If we want to be eco-friendly froggers...this is one way to do it.

I've been thinking of possible uses for expired vitamins. Maybe herptivite could be used in small amounts to feed cultures of critters? I know isopods like herptivite.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I'm certainly going to be ordering my next batch of supplements with a local so we can split the goods.. and I'm sure I will still have too much before it expires.


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## O2 Plastics (Jun 28, 2006)

Nuggular said:


> > It just seems a shame to spend $40 on supplements every few months and only use $1.50 worth
> 
> 
> Who spends $40 on vitamins??? That's crazy. I just ordered my Rep-Cal both calcium and vitamins, and it was $15 with shipping. Hardly close to $40. So spending $15 every 6 months on vitamins is not bad at all.
> ...


Hmm,mmm cough cough. I did cough cough. 1 pet store in town sells them, $23 for 1, $20 for the other, don't remember which is which. Mine are actually expired right now, but not as expired as the pet stores were. I was going to ask for a good online retailer, but you beat me to the punch, danka.

$13.50 in the trash every 6 months is way better than $35 in the trash. Living in the middle of no-where sure has its disadvantages when shopping for specialty items.

Anyone in Northern Co (Ft. Collins'ish) want to split some vites? I'm actually in Cheyenne Wy, but I know there's no-one up here


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

So the people from MinerAll had a booth at the NRBE in Daytona, and I asked them about MinerAll shelf life.

They told me that MinerAll I (which contains vitamin D3 as well as a multitude of minerals, including calcium) will last essentially indefinitely unless it is heated above 120F. This is the opposite of what I would expect to hear from someone affiliated with the company (you'd expect they'd want you to buy it more frequently).

I am not myself sure if this is the case, but they were very clear that their tests had shown minimal degradation of the minerals over time. 

Regardless of the shelf life, I'll say here that I think MinerAll is BY FAR the best calcium supplement out there - much more complete than RepCal.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I am suspicious of information provided by any of the manufacturers of the supplements without an idependent review as an independent study performed in 2001 (see S.D. Crissey, A.M. Ward, and M.T. Maslanka; 2001; Nutrient content of nutritional supplements available for use in captive lizard feeding programs; Proceedings of Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition ) showed that some supplements were deficient from the ingredients and/or levels stated on either the label or by information provided by the manufacturer... 

Ed


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Ed,

I agree, but I thought it was an interestingly direct and unequivocal statement from a manufacturer that made me think twice...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I am missing a page from my copy and will have to see if I can get another copy so I don't have a total list of all of the supplements analyzed on hand but there was an interesting comment in one of the paragraphs where it indicated that Walkabout Farms (no longer in production under any name) was the only tested supplement that provided most of the nutrients... 

From what I remember talking to the nutritionist at work, some of the manufacturers threatened lawsuits over this data. 

Ed


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

> Regardless of the shelf life, I'll say here that I think MinerAll is BY FAR the best calcium supplement out there - much more complete than RepCal.


Could you elaborate on this comment? I have been meaning to add it into my rotation and have been rotating through a number of vitamins.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> Could you elaborate on this comment? I have been meaning to add it into my rotation and have been rotating through a number of vitamins.


Yeah sure Kyle. And as a disclaimer, I am in no way affiliated with the company.

My opinion on this comes from two sources. First and perhaps less significant - the ingredient list in MinerAll is much more complete, with a wide range of trace minerals in addition to calcium. Though RDAs for, well, everything, aren't very well known for pdfs, my hunch (backed up by experience, see below) is that these are helpful.

The second reason for my opinion comes from experience. I bred a variety of reptiles before turning to pdfs exclusively a few years ago, all indoors with limited sunlight. I used RepCal for awhile but had some issues with nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP or metabolic bone disease). 

Switching to MinerAll eliminated these problems, improved my animals coloration, and increased my hatchling survival. 

With pdfs, I have had exactly two cases of spindly leg in the last three years. I think good mineral supplementation of the adults contributes to this (though this is a total hunch).

Basically, I've had much better results using MinerAll than I have with any other supplement.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you want to read over a thread where it was well discussed see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22296-vitamin-shelf-life-split-code-ethics.html 

my comments on warming it up and shelf life still apply regardless if it is kept in the fridge or the freezer portion of the refrigerator... (last I checked... freezers were often integral parts of refrigerators...)


Ed


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