# Completely avoidable shipping tragedy



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

*PLEASE DON'T SHIP UNTIL YOU KNOW HOW*
This morning I received the most beautiful 8 dead frogs ever. 
Always ask the seller how the frogs will be packed and shipped before agreeing to any transaction. Never assume the seller knows what he's doing.









Shipped "next day" from El Paso to Florida, 1/2" styrofoam in a priority mail box with absolutely no phase gel, or other temperature stabilizer, completely worthless. 









USPS tracking still showed the package in transit in Tampa a day late and 6 hours after I had already picked them up from my P.O. No explanation for the 24 hr delay.









*Please review this thread before shipping frogs.*
*http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/71269-shipping-standards.html*


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Yeesh, this is awful. I feel so sorry for those poor frogs.

Shawn has an updated excellent shipping tutorial that should be read by anyone ready to do some shipping. It can be found here. Most importantly, never ship in extreme conditions, better to wait until the weather evens out a bit.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

What a tragedy and horrible lesson on shipping, those were beautiful frogs Kevin, thanks for turning this into learning experience for all. You can never be too careful or confident you know everything, I lost a male escudo in shipping recently myself and it was my stupid mistake, I think wet sphagnum has killed more frogs during shipping than the cold ever has. Shipping dart frogs in that box cross country is certainly I have not done this before mistake.


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

DARN RIGHT ASK ASK ASK > Its Buyers Money & frogs & Heart. What a Heartbreaker & Seller should be stopped for Non Caring Packing if I read your message right that they werent packed correct. SO ,SO Sorry to see this stuff. We All Need to be responsible for Care of these Beautiful Critters. What a Damn shame. Really. Messed UP.


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

Who was the Seller?


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

Dev30ils said:


> Yeesh, this is awful. I feel so sorry for those poor frogs.
> 
> Shawn has an updated excellent shipping tutorial that should be read by anyone ready to do some shipping. It can be found here. Most importantly, never ship in extreme conditions, better to wait until the weather evens out a bit.


 Yep Shawn H Has an Excellent Shippg Method!


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

nagasaki said:


> Who was the Seller?


Seller is not a member here to my knowledge. I deal with a ton of beginners and take the time to explain things in detail so they have a good experience. I just got complacent when dealing with a seller and should have considered he also might be a beginner.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Damn, being one of the more active froggers out here, El Paso/Las Cruces area, this really posses me off. It sure as hell wasn't me.

If you'ld like to have him contact me, I'd be happy to show him in person how to properly ship in the future. I just shipped 20+ frogs to Chitown in 12 degree wether with no issue.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Damn, being one of the more active froggers out here, El Paso/Las Cruces area, this really posses me off. It sure as hell wasn't me.
> 
> If you'ld like to have him contact me, I'd be happy to show him in person how to properly ship in the future. I just shipped 20+ frogs to Chitown in 12 degree wether with no issue.


Just out of curiosity Doug, what would be your "no ship" cutoff temp in winter?


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Damn, being one of the more active froggers out here, El Paso/Las Cruces area, this really posses me off. It sure as hell wasn't me.
> 
> If you'ld like to have him contact me, I'd be happy to show him in person how to properly ship in the future. I just shipped 20+ frogs to Chitown in 12 degree wether with no issue.


Well, he's stopped communicating with me so yeah, I might need someone to show him a thing or two. 
Temps weren't really terrible there or here, mostly in the 50's. Which is one reason I wasn't too concerned, but I have no idea where they were during the extra day delay.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Dane said:


> Just out of curiosity Doug, what would be your "no ship" cutoff temp in winter?


It really depends on many factors, temps in Mephis, temps leaving my location, temps on arrival, are the frogs being held for pickup or delivered, what shipping methods are used. I think it has to be a fluid dynamic with all factors considered.

In this case, I double boxed with heat packs, phase panels, and held the frogs at location. The Frogger was an experienced trusted member of the community who was literally waiting at fed ex when they opened. Under most circumstances I wouldn't have shipped in this cold of weather, nor would I recommend for others to do so either.


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## Bighurt (Jun 18, 2011)

Dude, that sucks, I've had nearly DOA snakes before but reptiles tend to be a little more forgiving.

The worst one was left in a pile of snow...and someone was home. Fedex next day air didn't even ring the bell.

I don't ship in the winter if I don't have to...

Sorry for your loss, seller should eat the DOA and issue a full refund. Either way not someone I'd want to deal with.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

If not a member here, I hope you'll leave feedback someplace like fauna.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> If not a member here, I hope you'll leave feedback someplace like fauna.


I'm hoping for a chance to work thru this first.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I know exactly who it is and he lied to me and took my phase22/heat packs that I sent him and then stop communicating with me except to ask for $150 2 days ago to get the ball rolling...shady! He guaranteed live arrival and I can't believe he didn't use the supplies that I gave him because you'd probably have live frogs right now.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I seriously doubt you're going to get your money back...sorry. I hope you do.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Reef_Haven said:


> I'm hoping for a chance to work thru this first.


You definitely should give them at least that chance.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Who sends them Priority mail?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

dmartin72 said:


> Who sends them Priority mail?


Primarily people who want to cut down on shipping prices. IMO, it's a huge risk to do so and I don't trust USPS with anything more than cheap plant cuttings. 

I hate to hear that this happened to you, Kevin. I'm so sorry for you're loss . Those are beautiful frogs and they would have arrived safe and sound if the shipper had been more concerned about his frogs instead of making a quick buck. He may have just been uninformed, but still this was due to poor judgement and is truly a tragedy. I hope you get you're money back and that the other guys owns up to his mistakes. 

I hope we can all learn something from this sad thread 

John


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

My mistake...he sent them Priority Express.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

John...let me explain why I'm angry. I struck a deal with Adrian D. (Durana on Dart Den) for $300 shipped for eight 2-3 year old fine spotted leucs from Black Jungle (I'm sure that is exactly the info Kevin received). I was concerned for his method of shipping during winter so I sent him specific directions on how to layer a winter box and sent him 4 Phase22/Cryopaks and a large 72 hour heat pack Priority Mail on February 5th, 2015, which arrived on February 7th, 2015. He didn't respond to my repeated daily text messages until he asked for $150 on Tuesday February 10th to "get the ball rolling" because he needed to buy Styrofoam panels to cut when I had told him multiple times previously that he could get a thick insulated Styrofoam box form CVS or a Veterinarian for free. That struck odd and I broke off the deal on Wednesday, February 11th...the same day he sent the frogs to Kevin. I'm not mad about the deal going sour or that I sent him those supplies for free...in fact, I told him to keep them because I knew he wouldn't return them anyway. I'm upset because he didn't use them for Kevin when he had the darn supplies in hand for free from me!!!

Hopefully, Adrian will "MAN-UP" and give Kevin his money back like he should if in fact there was a money-back guarantee like Adrian made with me.

I actually sent this verbatim to Adrian on Dart Den:

"You absolutely need multiple (4) Phase22/Cryopaks and a heat pack. One Phase22/Cryopak needs to be in solid cool (below 60 degrees) phase and placed as a barrier between the frogs, some newspaper and then the heat pack. The other Phase22/Cryopaks need to be 75 degrees and in liquid form By soaking in 75 degree water until totally liquified. Have you used them before? Essentially, you will tape only the very outside edges of a 72 hour heat pack (they burn longer at a lower temp) with the red breathe line facing away from styrofoam panel towards the middle of the box. Then put some crumpled newpaper on the heat pack as this allows the heat pack to breathe. Then put the cool solid form Phase22/Cryopak next followed by three 75 degree liquid Phase22/Cryopaks around the frogs with more newspaper to keep everything from jostling around. Each deli cup (with holes poked from the inside out so no sharp edges face in) should only hold minimal and just moist Sphagnum moss with a potho leaf."

David


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

See there. You did exactly the right thing I referred to in my first post. Don't assume the seller knows how to ship. ASK! and then if there are any concerns with their intended method, take the time to explain in detail exactly how to properly ship for the expected conditions. 
This where I failed, although it appears this particular person disregarded that advice, even after being given the correct supplies. I know SYR requires photos of the packing procedure to to provide their live arrival guarantee. I've always been the type of person who trusts other people will do the right thing. I should have followed the saying "Trust but verify". 
I really hope this thread can be of some help to others.
Here's a great thread reference.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/33955-proper-due-diligence-online-frog-purchases.html


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Is Adrian Sydney?


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

markpulawski said:


> Is Adrian Sydney?


No,
I really don't want this thread to be about who this person is. Just want other people to have a better experience, and most importantly give the frogs the care to arrive safely.

I'll send you a PM.


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## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

My buddy was victim to poor shipping recently , a member of this forum shipped basti with a ton of heat packs and suprise they arrived dead. Now they are trying to send him Punta laurent when the temp will be -1 on his end. Redic.


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## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

Reef_Haven said:


> No,
> I really don't want this thread to be about who this person is. Just want other people to have a better experience, and most importantly give the frogs the care to arrive safely.
> 
> I'll send you a PM.


I respect that but many of these people aren't just simply making mistakes but actively ripping people off...their lack of response may prove they are one that fall in that category. We as a hobby need knowledge to protect ourselves.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

https://www.facebook.com/Frog40Discount?ref=bookmarks

Shipping tutorial....and another recent shipping nightmare to a friend of mine also.



Its not rocket science


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

tarbo96 said:


> I respect that but many of these people aren't just simply making mistakes but actively ripping people off...their lack of response may prove they are one that fall in that category. We as a hobby need knowledge to protect ourselves.


The information on this person has already been given. I will leave a feedback thread at that site at the appropriate time. As far as I know he is not a member here, I'll ask a Mod. 
I think the information on the two threads I linked gives people the ability to protect themselves and the frogs.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

this is not the thread I wanted to wake up to today!!! UGH! this is sickening to no belief. Not only did 8 beautiful frogs meet a tragic fate but we have someone in the hobby who is disregarding the safety of their animals and wont settle things with the buyer in proper fashion. Hopefully this is the persons way of getting out of the hobby, I for one dont want that kind of person around. I have shipped once time in middle of december 8 azureus from Washington to Michigan. I was paranoid beyond belief and I literally second guessed every step of my packaging while doing so. It doesnt matter if temps are 75 in all 3 locations I am overly paranoid about every package I send. I even make myself wake up early for packages that go east coast just so I can text the buyer to know if they are safe when picked up. Like Shawn said, its not rocket science.. people just need to pay attention and stop worrying about the money.


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

Dev30ils said:


> Yeesh, this is awful. I feel so sorry for those poor frogs.
> 
> Shawn has an updated excellent shipping tutorial that should be read by anyone ready to do some shipping. It can be found here. Most importantly, never ship in extreme conditions, better to wait until the weather evens out a bit.





dmartin72 said:


> John...let me explain why I'm angry. I struck a deal with Adrian D. (Durana on Dart Den) for $300 shipped for eight 2-3 year old fine spotted leucs from Black Jungle (I'm sure that is exactly the info Kevin received). I was concerned for his method of shipping during winter so I sent him specific directions on how to layer a winter box and sent him 4 Phase22/Cryopaks and a large 72 hour heat pack Priority Mail on February 5th, 2015, which arrived on February 7th, 2015. He didn't respond to my repeated daily text messages until he asked for $150 on Tuesday February 10th to "get the ball rolling" because he needed to buy Styrofoam panels to cut when I had told him multiple times previously that he could get a thick insulated Styrofoam box form CVS or a Veterinarian for free. That struck odd and I broke off the deal on Wednesday, February 11th...the same day he sent the frogs to Kevin. I'm not mad about the deal going sour or that I sent him those supplies for free...in fact, I told him to keep them because I knew he wouldn't return them anyway. I'm upset because he didn't use them for Kevin when he had the darn supplies in hand for free from me!!!
> 
> Hopefully, Adrian will "MAN-UP" and give Kevin his money back like he should if in fact there was a money-back guarantee like Adrian made with me.
> 
> ...


 Damn Dave U sent this guy ALL That Info. & still problems? TY For his Name 7 Others so No One else gets screwed.


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## scooter7728 (Sep 1, 2014)

That's sad but I would think the main problem would be USPS delaying the package. they are notorious in my past shipping and receiving items thru them for delaying shipping or delivering and horrible tracking updates. I don't love Fedex but they say something is gonna be there on time its there. Any frogs I have had shipped thru the mail arrive on time as guaranteed via Fedex.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

scooter7728 said:


> That's sad but I would think the main problem would be USPS delaying the package. they are notorious in my past shipping and receiving items thru them for delaying shipping or delivering and horrible tracking updates. I don't love Fedex but they say something is gonna be there on time its there. Any frogs I have had shipped thru the mail arrive on time as guaranteed via Fedex.


Well, obviously the delay didn't help, but anyone who's shipped for a while has experienced some pretty critical delays. You learn pretty soon to ship overnight, but pack for 3 day sustainability as a minimum. To ship with literally the lightest insulated box available, no heat packs or phase gel, in the middle of Feb is pretty much a guaranteed death sentence on any carrier. Those frogs were probably dead two hours into the plane ride. I appreciate the OP keeping a professional demeanor about this, but this is neglect plain and simple.

If the seller is member of Dart Den and the seller doesn't make this right (full refund), make sure and lay the whole story out for them. They don't pull any punches over there.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Boondoggle said:


> Well, obviously the delay didn't help, but anyone who's shipped for a while has experienced some pretty critical delays. You learn pretty soon to ship overnight, but pack for 3 day sustainability as a minimum. To ship with literally the lightest insulated box available, no heat packs or phase gel, in the middle of Feb is pretty much a guaranteed death sentence on any carrier. Those frogs were probably dead two hours into the plane ride. I appreciate the OP keeping a professional demeanor about this, but this is neglect plain and simple.
> 
> If the seller is member of Dart Den and the seller doesn't make this right (full refund), make sure and lay the whole story out for them. They don't pull any punches over there.


Good call, if he is active on DD, but not here, definitely warn them.

(Edit: Sorry I know mentioning other forums is a violation of the TOS, but in this case, we're talking about protecting fellow froggers and frogs)


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

I'm sorry for your loss. They were really good looking leucs. 

Thank you for bringing awareness to this issue. 

I really hope you get your money back


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## DendroKurt (Mar 19, 2013)

Sorry for your loss Kevin, thats terrible that happened to ya  and those poor leucs


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## Handfishinghillbilly (Apr 4, 2013)

One super depressing post....those fine spots were gorgeous


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Feedback has been left on the other forum, shouldn't take much effort to find. 
I also posted some info regarding Paypal transactions here, that may be helpful.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/177570-paypal-buyer-protection-live-animals.html#post2288577
I hope someone can learn from my experience.


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