# OH NO... Supplements!!!



## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

I need to replace my Supplements. It has been 6 months... and I want to switch over to All Repashy products now my current ones expired. Calcium plus ICB, Supermin and Superpig. Some dendroboard members have done it here... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements.html (If you have not read that post you should. One of the most informative post on Dendroboard.com Allen Repashy the maker of Repashy Suppliments tunes in and him and ED will make your brain spin.) But it seems that everyone is out!!! Http://www.joshsfrogs.com Is my local frog spot and he is out... I managed to get some from Brian's Tropicals But just the Calcium plus ICB... No offence but Alpha pro breeders is the only place that has both supermin and superpig. but they charge like $14 dollars for S&H and want $8 for supermin and $13 dollars for superpig and I just cannot justify spending $35-40 dollars on supplements that normally for EVERYTHING 25 bucks or so for just driving up to josh's... and I get everything Calicum plus ICB SuperMin and SuperPig.
Anyone know some good spots on the net to get repashy and have them in stock... Besides any of the site's sponsors because I already searched them all...

Also on this Thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements.html Allen mentions this...


Allen Repashy said:


> Sorry I was away so long from this board. Things have been a little hectic around here. I just got some new analysis results back from DCPAH that I am pretty happy about. I have been testing different available "Forms" of retinol from DSM. I have been getting premix samples, the storing them in a hot place.... and sending them in over six month increments for analysis to measure degradation.. About a year ago I switched my Retinol "Form" in my formula based on a six month analysis, and I just got back my new 6 and 12 month results and am stoked to see two things..... first, the stability in this form has been excellent compared to other forms. and second, the degradation has pretty much stayed spot on with vitamin D as far as the ratio goes... but more importantly, the vitamin A and D are nearly rock solid at 12 months!


Post #45
I am wondering if anyone else has anymore information on this. I would like to know if it would be safe to keep repashy supplements for 12 months instead of 6... As this would be great for my wallet and my frogs!!!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

New England Herpetoculture - Vitamins & Chemicals

John


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

John. You rock
And I was wrong. NEHerps is a sponsor.

Now can anyone answer my second Question:


Nicholas said:


> Also on this Thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements.html Allen mentions this...
> 
> 
> Allen Repashy said:
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some of the best evidence out there suggests that even though the A is stable, the supplements should still be replaced after six months as other vitamins (like some of the water soluble vitamins) will still degrade. This is based on some of the newer information supplied by Dr. Wright. 

Ed


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks Ed. No better person to have answer my Question.


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

I'm sure this has been asked before--but what if you broke your vitamins into much smaller packages and then froze them until needed? Shelf life?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TDK said:


> I'm sure this has been asked before--but what if you broke your vitamins into much smaller packages and then froze them until needed? Shelf life?


There was prior discussion but the problem arises when you attempt to prevent freezer burn and/or moisture condensating on thawing. The effor is probably not worth the cost. 

People should also be aware that if they are splitting supplements they should be using non-reactive containers that prevent light penetration (plastic bags don't cut it)... Leaving the supplements in the hot sun while stopping somewhere on the way home can also further degrade supplements if they are not stored correctly....

Ed


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

I would be really helpful if some of the supplement manufacturers would divide their products into smaller containers/packages for those of us that don't have a larger collection that can't possibly use all of what's in a package within 6 months. For example if the Repashy were packaged into 4 packages within one contaier that would be helpful. I'm throwing away most of what I purchase every 6 months. Of course the cost would increase if packaging increased. Plus I don't know of anyone nearby that I can split supplements with and on a schedule also.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Why not arrange a 'group buy' among local froggers? I routinely split an order of supplements with 3 or 4 others.

As a side note, Josh should be back in stock today. Allen Repashy is a great guy, but shipping out orders in a timely fashion is another thing, lol.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I plan on giving the repashy supplements a try, but I don't think I'll abandon herp-cal completely...at least not till a good number of people have used this as their exclusive frog supplement for a year + 

I don't see any reason to stop using a product completely that has a proven track record. Most problems that have shown up can probably be attributed to under or over use and old degraded powders. I personally think people who feed and use the same supplements daily or nearly so are just asking for trouble. If the vitamins go bad then with the excessive use they've just compounded the problem and given the frog less of a chance to survive till they replace their supplements.

I figure 1 or 2 feedings repashy, then 1 feeding repcal combo...or vise versa, then maybe take a feeding day off and give non supplemented flies only.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> as a side note, Josh should be back in stock today. Allen Repashy is a great guy, but shipping out orders in a timely fashion is another thing, lol.


Yeah Allen Repashy seems to have alot going for him with his MMA and Truck racing stuff... I could see how he gets caught up in other ventures.

I was pretty dissappointed I could not order from josh this time around... maybe if i just waited longer or called and asked when he would be back in stock... My first choice is to always buy from Josh... (mostly because I can drive to his place and hopfully if he is not busy hang out in his basement and look at his frogs  ...yeah I know im a selfish @$$) But he is a really square guy as well... very helpful (and he hooked me up with free $#!%... like I said i am selfish  )


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Nicholas said:


> Yeah Allen Repashy seems to have alot going for him with his MMA and Truck racing stuff... I could see how he gets caught up in other ventures.
> 
> I was pretty dissappointed I could not order from josh this time around... maybe if i just waited longer or called and asked when he would be back in stock... My first choice is to always buy from Josh... (mostly because I can drive to his place and hopfully if he is not busy hang out in his basement and look at his frogs  ...yeah I know im a selfish @$$) But he is a really square guy as well... very helpful (and he hooked me up with free $#!%... like I said i am selfish  )


If Josh is getting restocked today, what is keeping you from ordering from him?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> There was prior discussion but the problem arises when you attempt to prevent freezer burn and/or moisture condensating on thawing. The effor is probably not worth the cost.
> 
> People should also be aware that if they are splitting supplements they should be using non-reactive containers that prevent light penetration (plastic bags don't cut it)... Leaving the supplements in the hot sun while stopping somewhere on the way home can also further degrade supplements if they are not stored correctly....
> 
> Ed


Ed- what about those vacuum sealers you see on infomercials? Light penetration wouldn't be much of an issue in a closed freezer.. and forgive my scientific ignorance, but common sense tells me the lack of any air exchange or gases inside the package would at least solve the freezer burn, and potentially the condensation? Again, probably not worth the cost, just an idea.

I guess one problem could be trying to vac the package shut without sucking up all of the powder


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## vugger#1 (Jul 20, 2009)

Nicholas, what part of Michigan are you in? We have 2 local retail stores on the west side of the state and they always have it in stock

$30-$50 every 6 months to keep supplements fresh for frogs that are worth hundreds?????? Healthy frogs is the goal right?


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

You can also use your expired supplements in your fruit fly media. It's not like you aren't making enough of that to se it all up.
Vitamin D degrades with exposure to light and a certain degree air also. That's why people who think they are gettng enough by drinking milk are usually wrong. Gallon containers are clear and by the time you get them the D is present in fractions of what it claims.

I have done studies on vtamin D degredation in blood serum (I'm an analytical chemist for an endocronology clinic) and with freezing the levels in serum don't decline after 1 year. I have no idea if this translates to the raw form though, nor do I know anything about the other vitamins. I only run mass spec on vitamin d and testosterone.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

McBobs said:


> If Josh is getting restocked today, what is keeping you from ordering from him?


I already ordered my supplement about 5 days prior...
You was not very good at word problems in school were you ?


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

vugger#1 said:


> Nicholas, what part of Michigan are you in? We have 2 local retail stores on the west side of the state and they always have it in stock
> 
> $30-$50 every 6 months to keep supplements fresh for frogs that are worth hundreds?????? Healthy frogs is the goal right?



...Thats nice, And thank you for the invitation. But josh's is only about 30 minutes away. And you are about 2 hours and 45 minutes.
(I am in the Flint area)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MichelleSG said:


> You can also use your expired supplements in your fruit fly media. It's not like you aren't making enough of that to se it all up.
> Vitamin D degrades with exposure to light and a certain degree air also. That's why people who think they are gettng enough by drinking milk are usually wrong. Gallon containers are clear and by the time you get them the D is present in fractions of what it claims.
> 
> I have done studies on vtamin D degredation in blood serum (I'm an analytical chemist for an endocronology clinic) and with freezing the levels in serum don't decline after 1 year. I have no idea if this translates to the raw form though, nor do I know anything about the other vitamins. I only run mass spec on vitamin d and testosterone.


In powdered multivitamin supplements, there is catalyzed oxidation of the fat soluble vitamins which increases thier breakdown. As they do not break down at the same rate this changes the ratios in the supplement. As the ratios move out of 10: 1: 0.1 of A (as retinyl/retinol): D3 :E the competition for thier uptake gets moved out of the appropriate zones. This then results in deficiencies of one or more of the fat soluble vitamins. In addition, the water soluble vitamins also oxidize in powdered supplements. This is why the current recommendations are to discard the supplement within six months of opening the supplement (and if possible use ones that have a known manufacturing date) as some of the suppements purchased in pet stores may have sat there for extended lengths of time (possibly more than a year). 

Adding the supplements to the fruit fly media as a method of preventing it from going t to waste has some theoretical problems. Fruit flies don't use D3, can't have thier calcium level adjusted but do uptake and store vitamin E. Depending on the amount that the flies can uptake and store from the media, this could end up being outside of the range for which the supplements were targeted to resolve (remember A, D3 and E all compete for uptake in the digestive tract). The amount that is available for the flies is unknown as the cultures are basically unregulated bioreactors in which microbial growth is using everything they can as a food source. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Nicholas said:


> I already ordered my supplement about 5 days prior...
> You was not very good at word problems in school were you ?


What's wrong with how I worded that sentence?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

gtclipse01 said:


> Ed- what about those vacuum sealers you see on infomercials? Light penetration wouldn't be much of an issue in a closed freezer.. and forgive my scientific ignorance, but common sense tells me the lack of any air exchange or gases inside the package would at least solve the freezer burn, and potentially the condensation? Again, probably not worth the cost, just an idea.
> 
> I guess one problem could be trying to vac the package shut without sucking up all of the powder


There is going to be some level of moisture in the mix, this will freeze and thaw in a frost free freezer leading to degredation. 

Ed


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Nicholas said:


> I was pretty dissappointed I could not order from josh this time around... maybe if i just waited longer or called and asked when he would be back in stock





McBobs said:


> If Josh is getting restocked today, what is keeping you from ordering from him?


The only reason you could take from this is because I already ordered...
Sorry for not being that specific... (I didnt mean to offend... I just have a dry sence of humor... my bad)
Your statement was worded well... nothing wrong. I am sorry


But seriously tho McBobs... How much DOES a polar bear weigh?


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Nicholas said:


> The only reason you could take from this is because I already ordered...
> Sorry for not being that specific... (I didnt mean to offend... I just have a dry sence of humor... my bad)
> Your statement was worded well... nothing wrong. I am sorry


Oh its all cool. I read and reread my last post over and over trying to figure out if I had worded it weirdly at all or not. I couldnt figure it out. 

I must have missed the post where you said you had already ordered.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

McBobs said:


> I must have missed the post where you said you had already ordered.


No... you didn't miss it. my brain thought I said It but my fingers didn't write it...


So how much DOES a POLAR BEAR WEIGH!!!!!!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nicholas said:


> So how much DOES a POLAR BEAR WEIGH!!!!!!!


Send the question to the docents at any Zoo with Polar bears and they will tell you the weight at the last weighing. 

Ed


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> Send the question to the docents at any Zoo with Polar bears and they will tell you the weight at the last weighing.
> 
> Ed


Thanks for ruining it for me Ed... I was hoping for a funny joke or something...


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Nicholas said:


> Thanks for ruining it for me Ed... I was hoping for a funny joke or something...


How much does a Polar bear weigh?

Enough to break the ice. HI! I'm Matt!


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

McBobs said:


> How much does a Polar bear weigh?
> 
> Enough to break the ice. HI! I'm Matt!


 lol thats what i was hoping for
good 1


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Nicholas said:


> lol thats what i was hoping for
> good 1


Boy howdy do the ladies love that one. It may be cheezy, but there's 2 things that can come of it. 

The girl either laughs and continues on talking to you, or she doesnt laugh, looks at you like youre a weirdo and then walks away. 

We dont have to worry about the second ones though... If they dont like it, they're not the girl for me. 

In any case, I got a frogger girlfriend and she's the best!


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

McBobs said:


> In any case, I got a frogger girlfriend and she's the best!


Looks like your doin' it froggy style...


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## dartfrogs3 (Jul 30, 2010)

So, can this Calcium Plus ICB by Repashy be used alone? If not, what is the best combination? 

I alternate the supplements now. I feed everyday and alternate between the 2.

Can I just use this one or what is best?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Many recommend switching between Repashy Calcium + ICB and Herptivite/Reptical on a regular basis. Buy and use both if you can.


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## dwizum (Oct 28, 2010)

What about the exo-terra brand supplements? They are attractive to me because they are available in small amounts (1.1 or 2.5 oz iirc) hence less waste if you're tossing leftovers at 6 months.

My understanding of the math/chemistry involved is not good enough to know if they hit the 10:1:.1 ratio Ed has specified, does anyone know if they are worthwhile?


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Honestly, I can't really understand why spending $20 (and that's if you're buying Repashy Cal+ICB, Reptical, AND Herptivite) every six months is such a problem for so many people. If you need it shipped and you're that worry about it, PLAN AHEAD and get it shipped out with your orders of other stuff a month or two early, and leave it sealed until the time comes. 

The frogs cost twice that (on the low end) apiece, and you hardly spend any money on FF's.... this is a proven method, and isn't expensive. I'm a full time student on a tight budget, and still have no problem shelling out that little bit of cash to keep my frogs healthy. Just go to Mcdonalds one less time a month, and that's more than enough to pay for the vites.. put one less plant in each viv.. save your change.. just don't cheap out on one of the most important aspects of good husbandry for these animals. /rant

As for the exo-terra stuff, it would probably be good for cycling in with other vites, but I still wouldn't pass up the proven supplements completely.. an important question would be, does it degrade any faster than the others? Personally, I'd rather stick with the stuff I know is quality, than risk my frogs' health to save $5 every 6 months.

bottom line, the solution to not wasting vitamins is getting more frogs  I kid.


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## dwizum (Oct 28, 2010)

tclipse, without getting too far down a tangent, I don't think your post addresses my concerns. Maybe I didn't phrase my question correctly. Am I too much of a penny-pincher to spend $X on a hobby? Absolutely not. I will gladly spend the money on things required to keep frogs. On the other hand, is it reasonable to ask for a qualified comparison, based on hard facts, between an established supplement and a cheaper (but lesser-known) alternative? Obviously, I think so. 

In other words, while I respect your decision to just blindly "pony up" and buy the "expensive" stuff because it's commonly accepted as effective, what I am specifically interested in is hearing from someone knowledgeable enough to look at the numbers and tell us if there is enough information available to reasonably compare this particular brand of supplement to those widely used. And if there IS enough information out there, how do they compare? I'm not looking at this purely from the perspective of saving a buck, I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of getting the most benefit for my buck. If the cheaper stuff is worse, fine - I'll buy the known brands. If it's equivalent - then, hooray, I've saved some money without compromising the health of my animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dwizum said:


> What about the exo-terra brand supplements? They are attractive to me because they are available in small amounts (1.1 or 2.5 oz iirc) hence less waste if you're tossing leftovers at 6 months.
> 
> My understanding of the math/chemistry involved is not good enough to know if they hit the 10:1:.1 ratio Ed has specified, does anyone know if they are worthwhile?


 
When looking at supplements produced in the US, you need to be aware that there are no regulations requiring that the ingredients meet the label requirements.. and there can even be significant differences not only between brands but between batches of a supplement. 
In the only non-partisian study in which a complete analysis was performed on the supplements, only one supplement (no longer manufactured) had the analysis match the label. Some of the newer supplements have not been independtly verified as of yet so integrity on the part of the manufacturer may have to play into it. If one does not feel comfortable that a manufacturer routinely produces a good product then one has to rotate supplements to prevent deficiencies. There are decent supplements out there and I am comfortable with my choices. I'm not going to bring them up here as that would potentially be feedback given the topic but searches on the threads can find those discussions on supplements as well. 

If one looks at the lable for the exo-terra products one can see immediately that there are potential issues as 
1) the actual ratio of A to D3 is 0 as there is no actual vitamin A in the mix (look up the discussions on beta carotene as an insufficient source of vitamin A as they are too numerous and lengthy to repeat here) 
2) the reporting of A and E are in units that cannot be used for comparision of the ratios without conversions. There isn't really any good reason for this reporting convention. 

Ed


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Only the last part of my post starting with "as for the exo terra stuff" applies to your post, the first half was meant to be a very general statement. Sorry for the confusion. I'm just a little leery as to the quality of it when compared to what we already know is high quality and very effective. 

The Repashys actually made the effort to educate forum hobbyists like us about their product, by coming here and talking about it (EDIT- and reptical/herptivite have been around forever and with sufficient scientific analysis to suggest that it's of sufficient quality). Additionally, they breed reptiles themselves, instead of being an offshoot of Hagen just trying to make an extra buck with the reptile community when their main focus is fish. 

Also, with the exception of the Exo-terra tanks and light fixtures (which they should have down, considering their fish experience), I don't really like the quality of many of their products personally. For example, their ultrasonic fogger can burn any animal it touches, but they sell it without any type of protective casing anyways. 

Those types of things just make me wonder how much effort they really put into those supplements, and until they come here and educate me otherwise, I'm going to air on the side of caution and go with what I know works. I didn't mean any offense. 

The first part of the post was just directed to the XXX number of threads I've seen with people worrying about the cost of vites, when dendros are really one of the cheapest herp hobbies out there after initial setup/addition of the frogs. After everything is set up, all you need is media 1-2x a year, and supps every six months..... it doesn't really get cheaper than that. Also, planning ahead can save on shipping, and every herp show I've been to has had Reptical/Herptivite for around $13 total.


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## dwizum (Oct 28, 2010)

Perfect Ed, thanks for the analysis. It seems like your answer is "we don't know enough to make a reasonable comparison." Unfortunate, but understandable and acceptable. Given that, I will just stick to the proven brands.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements-4.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-do-you-dust-your-frogs-food-supplements.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/36162-insufficient-retinol-embryo-death-sls.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/37662-dendrocare-itself.html

In addition, six months tends to also be a limit before significant oxidation of the water soluble vitamins begins to occur. 

Ed


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