# R.I.P. My 2 Year Old Tad...



## Tim F

Yesterday my 2 year and one month old nominant fant tadpole finally called it quits. I pulled it from a temp viv that the parents were in when I relocated them '07, but unlike its many siblings it just wouldn't morph. It only had the tiniest vestiges of hind legs, like what you’d expect to see after 4 wks or so. It had a few copper streaks on it's head, which it got early on when its growing pace seemed normal, but that's it. It just got big and after about 6 or 7 months began to get kind of dumpy –looking. Since it apparently had no intention of leaving the water, after over a year and a half I put it in with my tropical fish. Why not? I figured it would at least be useful as a scavenger – which it was. But this past weekend it seemed to develop what might be described in fish as a swim bladder problem. It bobbed on the surface of the water and seemed to only descend with extraordinary effort, after which it would float back to the surface. So I scooped it out and put it back in a tad container and it was dead within a day. Tadpole old age? Or maybe lungs finally develop and it drowned. Who knows.

I didn’t think to snap a pic before it got sick. I figured it would be around for a while, so I’m kinda bummed about that. Although it was eating well and seemed to be doing fine it was getting a little thick and... um, ugly. To tell you the truth it really was beginning to creep me out a little.

Anyone else ever have long-lived tads that wouldn't morph? If so, any idea why that was? And if they eventually morphed where they normal? Something tells me that if this had morphed it woud have been a monstrocity. I've been offered a number of theories, but I'm thinking that it may just have been a mutant.


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## Suzanne

I've heard stories like this before with Azureus. Somehow it never develloped, just grew till eventually it died. Morphing is induced by thyroid hormone, so maybe this big tad had somekind of disfunctional thyroid gland? In that case, it would never have morphed. Still a mystery how it died then, ofcourse.


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## Julio

sorry for your loss, amazing that you had it for so long, the longest i ever had a tad was an iquito vent that was in the water for 7 months.


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## thedude

wow. that sounds cool. you could have named it after the elephant man! or frankentad 

but seriously i think when they get a "swim bladder looking thing" it is because of water quality. thats what ive heard anyway. also a pond by my house had a lot of pollution sitting on the surface and around 80% of the salamander larvae i saw had the "swim bladder".


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## Tim F

Suzanne said:


> I've heard stories like this before with Azureus. Somehow it never develloped, just grew till eventually it died. Morphing is induced by thyroid hormone, so maybe this big tad had somekind of disfunctional thyroid gland? In that case, it would never have morphed. Still a mystery how it died then, ofcourse.


This seems quite possible - it makes sense to me anyway



thedude said:


> wow. that sounds cool. you could have named it after the elephant man! or frankentad
> 
> but seriously i think when they get a "swim bladder looking thing" it is because of water quality. thats what ive heard anyway. also a pond by my house had a lot of pollution sitting on the surface and around 80% of the salamander larvae i saw had the "swim bladder".


Frankentad! Yeah - you should have seen it! Not really over-sized, just oddly "solid".
Ultimately it was living with some fairly demanding tropical fish, so water quality shouldn't have been an issue in the end.


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## Darren Meyer

Here is a Orange Terribilis tad that was just under 3 years old when it finally passed . He was bizzar .








Though it hasen't happend since ....
Happy frogging , 
Darren


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## HunterB

Darren Meyer said:


> Here is a Orange Terribilis tad that was just under 3 years old when it finally passed . He was bizzar .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though it hasen't happend since ....
> Happy frogging ,
> Darren



That thing is frickin sweet haha its all alien like and whatnot
I want one


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## Philsuma

Freakin' freaky


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## thedude

geeze darren you sure thats nt one of these??


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## porkchop48

Tim F said:


> Yesterday my 2 year and one month old nominant fant tadpole finally called it quits. I pulled it from a temp viv that the parents were in when I relocated them '07, but unlike its many siblings it just wouldn't morph. It only had the tiniest vestiges of hind legs, like what you’d expect to see after 4 wks or so. It had a few copper streaks on it's head, which it got early on when its growing pace seemed normal, but that's it. It just got big and after about 6 or 7 months began to get kind of dumpy –looking. Since it apparently had no intention of leaving the water, after over a year and a half I put it in with my tropical fish. Why not? I figured it would at least be useful as a scavenger – which it was. But this past weekend it seemed to develop what might be described in fish as a swim bladder problem. It bobbed on the surface of the water and seemed to only descend with extraordinary effort, after which it would float back to the surface. So I scooped it out and put it back in a tad container and it was dead within a day. Tadpole old age? Or maybe lungs finally develop and it drowned. Who knows.
> 
> I didn’t think to snap a pic before it got sick. I figured it would be around for a while, so I’m kinda bummed about that. Although it was eating well and seemed to be doing fine it was getting a little thick and... um, ugly. To tell you the truth it really was beginning to creep me out a little.
> 
> Anyone else ever have long-lived tads that wouldn't morph? If so, any idea why that was? And if they eventually morphed where they normal? Something tells me that if this had morphed it woud have been a monstrocity. I've been offered a number of theories, but I'm thinking that it may just have been a mutant.


 
I have an azureus tad that is going on 2 years now. he is almost as long as the 16 oz deli cup is wide. He has never sprouted any back legs but does have the blue color ( only reason I know it is an azureus). He started doing the bobbing to the surface last week so I am sure he will not be around long. He is very bumpy looking and just flat out ugly though. 


The water in the conatiner was the same water for about a year. I started after that year doing water changes in his container every week or so. I had to feed tads tonight so if he is still alive I will snap some pics.


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## Tim F

thedude said:


> geeze darren you sure thats nt one of these??


GEEEZ! What the h#LL is that?!!


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## Tim F

Darren Meyer said:


> Here is a Orange Terribilis tad that was just under 3 years old when it finally passed . He was bizzar .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though it hasen't happend since ....
> Happy frogging ,
> Darren



CTS - Creepy Tad Sydrome.


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## stemcellular

Been on DB since last June and I have to say that this is my favorite thread. Just goes to show what can happen in nature.... btw. that 3yr old terrib tad is freakin amazing.


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## Tim F

porkchop48 said:


> He started doing the bobbing to the surface last week so I am sure he will not be around long.


Sounds like he may be 's throwing in the towel. I hope you can get a pic before he checks out. I'd like to see the huge bumpy blue tad - I think.

In the meantime, I'll light a candle.


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## Tim F

stemcellular said:


> Been on DB since last June and I have to say that this is my favorite thread.


I'm honored


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## Philsuma

Seriously.....take some pics quickly and get some formalin or something to preserve it.

There are Herpetologists and Biologists who would absolutely want to study that guy.


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## thedude

Tim F said:


> GEEEZ! What the h#LL is that?!!


its a frilled shark. thats the only one ever seen alive cause they live so deep in the ocean. obviously because it doesnt want anyone to see it 

i would love to see pictures of that azures tad, very cool.


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## Tim F

thedude said:


> its a frilled shark. thats the only one ever seen alive cause they live so deep in the ocean. obviously because it doesnt want anyone to see it


Yeah, I'd go deep too if I had a mug like that!


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## porkchop48

Philsuma said:


> Seriously.....take some pics quickly and get some formalin or something to preserve it.
> 
> There are Herpetologists and Biologists who would absolutely want to study that guy.


CAn you use alcohol?


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## stemcellular

porkchop48 said:


> CAn you use alcohol?


It would have to be ethyl or grain alcohol... something you shouldn't have too much trouble finding in your neck of the woods (mmmm, bottled lightening!)


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## HunterB

thedude said:


> its a frilled shark. thats the only one ever seen alive cause they live so deep in the ocean. obviously because it doesnt want anyone to see it
> 
> i would love to see pictures of that azures tad, very cool.


Or maybe, it hides at the bottom so 
A. It can go into hiding every couple years and resurface later so its a big deal. Its an attention whore like that

B. It is just soooo amazingly, radically, super duper, awesome looking, that it doesn't wanna burn peoples eyes with its amazing beauty ( I have the same problem mr. frilled shark)


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## Tim F

^^^

I guess I never thought of it like that.

Hey Porkchop48, any luck getting shots of your azureus Frankentad?


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## fishdoc

Is it possible that this is a phenomenon similar to salamander larvae that never metamorphose? wikipedia says about neotenic larvae: The existence of large larvae has allowed some species to become semi or wholly neotenic (sometimes referred to as paedomorphosis). Neotenic adults of these species remain fully aquatic, retaining both their gills and fins, while developing their lungs to aid in breathing. They become sexually mature without ever undergoing metamorphosis. It would be interesting if this is some kind of retained ancestral trait at a very low frequency that is retained in dart frogs.


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## HunterB

fishdoc said:


> Is it possible that this is a phenomenon similar to salamander larvae that never metamorphose? wikipedia says about neotenic larvae: The existence of large larvae has allowed some species to become semi or wholly neotenic (sometimes referred to as paedomorphosis). Neotenic adults of these species remain fully aquatic, retaining both their gills and fins, while developing their lungs to aid in breathing. They become sexually mature without ever undergoing metamorphosis. It would be interesting if this is some kind of retained ancestral trait at a very low frequency that is retained in dart frogs.


Such as the axotol? I hadn't thought of that...


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## Philsuma

CTS

Creepy Tad Syndrome.

"Sometimes you can't explain nature" - Markey Mark in The Happening


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## Blaise and Echo

thedude said:


> geeze darren you sure thats nt one of these??


Oh god! I don't want to see the frog that morphs from a fricken frilled shark!


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## Tim F

fishdoc said:


> Is it possible that this is a phenomenon similar to salamander larvae that never metamorphose? wikipedia says about neotenic larvae: The existence of large larvae has allowed some species to become semi or wholly neotenic (sometimes referred to as paedomorphosis). Neotenic adults of these species remain fully aquatic, retaining both their gills and fins, while developing their lungs to aid in breathing. They become sexually mature without ever undergoing metamorphosis. It would be interesting if this is some kind of retained ancestral trait at a very low frequency that is retained in dart frogs.


That is a thought. Either a throw back or a leap (and miss) forward. But what a life for a tad that could never leave a leaf axil or nut pod. And what about dry spells? That may be one of the ways nature culls these if and when they occur in the wild. So it might be interesting for someone to collect a group of these - all tincs for example, and keep them together for a few years to see what behavior, breeding or otherwise might develop. Not me though. I’ve already had a weird dream about Darren’s freaky frickin frog-pole. Yet I still want to see Porkchop 48’s blue one!!!


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## kingnicky101

Blaise and Echo said:


> Oh god! I don't want to see the frog that morphs from a fricken frilled shark!


Here's what it might look like morphed out. lol.









Or maybe this.


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## Tim F

^^^

Excellent! How much for proven pairs??!


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## earthfrog

I'm wondering if it might be water quality causing some of this---I know there are human endocrine-disruptors in tap water these days---are those of you with these growth issues using mostly tap water to morph your tads?


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## Tim F

Susan - 

I'm a little wary of tap water too, so I don't use it for my tads or in my vivs. However by the time I placed this tad in the tropical fish aquarium that does contain treated and aged tap water it was already a 1 1/2 year old mutant, so the damage, whatever its cause was already done. I think that it's likely that I would have had more of these over the years if the issue was with the water, but this has been the only one.


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## stitchb

fishdoc said:


> Is it possible that this is a phenomenon similar to salamander larvae that never metamorphose? wikipedia says about neotenic larvae: The existence of large larvae has allowed some species to become semi or wholly neotenic (sometimes referred to as paedomorphosis). Neotenic adults of these species remain fully aquatic, retaining both their gills and fins, while developing their lungs to aid in breathing. They become sexually mature without ever undergoing metamorphosis. It would be interesting if this is some kind of retained ancestral trait at a very low frequency that is retained in dart frogs.


It's interesting that this has come up, I was just reading something where they proposed and evolutionary "memory" where when certain ancestral conditions exist the lineage will revert to an ancestral state( ie reverse evolution). It's also intresting that the terrib tad does resemble some proposed models of prehistoric amphibians-short stubby legs, wide flat head, small beady eyes and long finned tail. 








Pretty cool stuff! I can't wait to see the azureus!


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## buddha

*Pours out a 40 (mL that is) of tadpole tea for our fallen tads* Where ever they may be, let their little stomachs be full and the water plentaful. (Runs out of room Crying) -Buddha


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## Dragonfly

Ok, I want a pair of those monster frogs. Do they still eat ffs or do we need something with more give - and what are the sizes, temp and humidity requirements. Do they need a vert or horizontal? Venomous as well as poisonous?


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## porkchop48

Tim F said:


> Sounds like he may be 's throwing in the towel. I hope you can get a pic before he checks out. I'd like to see the huge bumpy blue tad - I think.
> 
> In the meantime, I'll light a candle.


I did actually get some pics of them. I have been running around like an idiot that last week or so but I will get them up soon 

He is still alive though.

I do use aged tap water for all my tads. I fill up gallon jugs, chuck in some almond leaves and then use as needed. I dont do water changes. ( well I did with this guy recently due to the excessive amount of muck)


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## earthfrog

Tim F said:


> Susan -
> 
> I'm a little wary of tap water too, so I don't use it for my tads or in my vivs. However by the time I placed this tad in the tropical fish aquarium that does contain treated and aged tap water it was already a 1 1/2 year old mutant, so the damage, whatever its cause was already done. I think that it's likely that I would have had more of these over the years if the issue was with the water, but this has been the only one.


That's good to know---I am also wary of using it b/c of the ever-increasing contaminant load. A quick look at your municipal water report and their water cleaning process might help clear things up. 



porkchop48 said:


> I did actually get some pics of them. I have been running around like an idiot that last week or so but I will get them up soon
> 
> He is still alive though.
> 
> I do use aged tap water for all my tads. I fill up gallon jugs, chuck in some almond leaves and then use as needed. I dont do water changes. ( well I did with this guy recently due to the excessive amount of muck)


It might be a good idea to try and dilute a good amount of that tap water with spring water/RO/distilled just to reduce the contaminant load---do you run your water through a filter first?


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## JayzunBoget

I just started a new thread detailing my own experience with this Dendrobatid neotony without knowing this one existed. 
This is what happened to my tad;
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...no-such-thing-neotony-dendrobatids-there.html
In my case, I use RO water with Equilibrium added to remineralize a bit. I have been breeding Dendrobatids for about 5 years now and this is the first time I have heard of anything like this. And now I have these stories to add to the mystery.
I should hopefully have pics of my little azureotl to post soon.


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## Tim F

Azureotl - funny, and yeah, weird. Keep us posted, and it would be great to see pics when you have 'em! Now, if we could only put your azureotl and Porkchop's azureotl in the same enclosure to see what if anything happens (hint hint hint)...


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## JayzunBoget

Porkchop48, I have a few questions for you, if you will.
I was wondering a couple of things.
1) How is your little guy doing? Is he still alive? 
2) How long has it been now since hatching?
3) Where did you get your parent stock?
In answer to 3) I got my parents from Marcus Breece and/or Pat Nabors. They are about 3 or 4 years old. They are part of a 1.2 group and live in a 90 gallon paludarium with minerally corrected RO. I use Equilibrium to remineralize.
They are fed gutloaded crickets supplemented with RepCals Calcium and Herptivite mixed 50/50. I spray the eggs until hatching with a methyl blue/ RO solution. I feed the tads Aquadine spirulina formula.
Anything about any of that in common with you?


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## JayzunBoget

here are a few pics of my little "azureotl"
Check out the tadpole mouthparts and how differantly the tail is attatched to accomodate the adult spinal structure.


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## Link3898

Whoa, thats weird!


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## Tim F

Hey JayzunBoget-
Thanks for posting those pics - don't know how I missed 'em! Let us know if it ever makes it out of the water or how long it lives. Yours is a bit further along than my 2 year old was. Just as dumpy-looking though.


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## Boondoggle

Fake! Clearly Photoshopped.

Just Kidding...very very bizarre though.


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## Okapi

Interesting thread. Needs to be a sticky I think


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## Mitch

This is crazy! Has anyone figured out the source of this problem yet?


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## Chris155hp

HunterB said:


> That thing is frickin sweet haha its all alien like and whatnot
> I want one


thats kinda creepy


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## xxohmycaptainxx

I've seen this before in other species. My friend once had a bullfrog tadpole for 5 years. It eventually died of old age according to the vet. These things aren't really understood yet but what I did when this happened to my leopard frog tadpole 3 years back was take it out of its tub and put it in its own terrarium with a small water area.(It already had all its legs it jsut wouldn't finish off the tail and looked the same for 2 years) After only a week it grew in lungs and live on land. However I had to keep its tank moist as for some reason it wouldn't lose its tail. So honestly it looked like a retarded hopping salamander. He died last summer....


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## Freeradical53

I would like to have a comment of an embryologist on this. Obviously some hormonal trigger failed. I would think that ordinarily the organism would self abort but why the delay?


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## xxohmycaptainxx

Freeradical53 said:


> I would like to have a comment of an embryologist on this. Obviously some hormonal trigger failed. I would think that ordinarily the organism would self abort but why the delay?


In nature they would but due to the conditions they have in cpativity they are able to survive longer and live healthy lives as tadpoles. In the wild if this happened they would die from disease, predation, or other factors long before death of old age as we are probably having here.


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## botanyboy03

Bizarre thread. I'd never thought of neoteny in frogs before.


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## tclipse

"Well you see, what we did was..."


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