# Carnivorous Plants



## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

Noob question - Are there any carnivorous plants that are fairly easy to grow AND safe to house with dart frogs?


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

I've had a nepenthes ampullaria growing in my big setup for a couple months now.

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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

gonzalez said:


> I've had a nepenthes ampullaria growing in my big setup for a couple months now.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Is it pretty easy to care for?


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Not really, I have it in a pot above the substrate because they like a soil of pure sphagnum moss. Medium light, and make sure the water going into the plant and into the cage is distilled or RO. 

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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

I mean it is easy to care for sorry that was worded wrong

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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

gonzalez said:


> ... because they like a soil of pure sphagnum moss.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Interesting, thanks!!


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

It's the reason they are carnivorous, most of these plants evolved in extremely acidic soils with low nutrients and developed other ways of getting it. Now, they can't even live in nutrient soil, which is why people typically use sphagnum/peat.

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## I'mNew2Frogs! (Jan 23, 2019)

gonzalez said:


> It's the reason they are carnivorous, most of these plants evolved in extremely acidic soils with low nutrients and developed other ways of getting it. Now, they can't even live in nutrient soil, which is why people typically use sphagnum/peat.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Do you think I could get away with the nepenthes ampullaria in an 18-inch tall viv? Googling that plant, looks like they get around 18-inches tall.

Also, could you bury or partially bury the potted plant into the usual Dart Frog substrate? To both take a little height out of it and for aesthetics?


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

They can get 18" and a good bit beyond that given enough time. Just type in nepenthes ampullaria on youtube and look at the one that brads greenhouse has. However it does take some years.

For the other question, I'm not really sure. You could ask the people over at terra forums though.

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## Eletroverse (Dec 6, 2018)

I've kept a few nepenthes and they never get very big. I could be wrong but I think they only get full size in a greenhouse type environment. This seems to be the case with a lot of tropical plants. When I visited the botanical gardens I saw bromeliads we have in vivariums that were as big as tire! Mine never get bigger than 6' or 7"

Anyway, it shouldn't be a problem. They do eat a lot of fruit flies but they're completely frog safe. I've had thumbnails deposit tadpoles in them and they came out fine.


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Eletroverse said:


> I've kept a few nepenthes and they never get very big. I could be wrong but I think they only get full size in a greenhouse type environment. This seems to be the case with a lot of tropical plants. When I visited the botanical gardens I saw bromeliads we have in vivariums that were as big as tire! Mine never get bigger than 6' or 7"
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, it shouldn't be a problem. They do eat a lot of fruit flies but they're completely frog safe. I've had thumbnails deposit tadpoles in them and they came out fine.


What species have you kept?

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## Eletroverse (Dec 6, 2018)

gonzalez said:


> What species have you kept?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Nepenthes alata, ampullaria and some crosses I dont recall... Just stick to lowland tropical species. You can try N. American or highland but afaik they require either a dormancy period and/or night time temp drop in the 60s. Also, always mist with RO or distilled and never plant them in soil.


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## marex (Nov 17, 2015)

Some species of Utricularia are easy to grow. They can also be so small that they offer absolutely no threat to your frogs.


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## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

Most of the tropical homophyllus pinguiculas will make good vivarium plants. with the P gigantea beeing one of the most suitable.

I have tried one of the most southern heterophyllus pinguicula (p.mesophytica) in my guiana leuc tank for 2 years now and that one do very well. However it gets a little more complicated to grow the heterophyllus types, they will need a period of colder and less humid conditions. With the Guiana leucs it is not a problem, they too like a dry season.

BR
Magnus


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

tropfrog said:


> Most of the tropical homophyllus pinguiculas will make good vivarium plants. with the P gigantea beeing one of the most suitable.
> 
> I have tried one of the most southern heterophyllus pinguicula (p.mesophytica) in my guiana leuc tank for 2 years now and that one do very well. However it gets a little more complicated to grow the heterophyllus types, they will need a period of colder and less humid conditions. With the Guiana leucs it is not a problem, they too like a dry season.
> 
> ...


Can you mount pinguiculas or do they need soil? I've heard they don't like getting wet.

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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

What websites do you typically purchase from? The idea of having a mounted mini pitcher sounds fun and good for wrangling excess flies as well. 


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## Squibles (Mar 7, 2019)

kblack3 said:


> What websites do you typically purchase from? The idea of having a mounted mini pitcher sounds fun and good for wrangling excess flies as well.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I am interested in finding reputable websites as well. Will sub for more info! 


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

Carnivorous plant nursery is good

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## tropfrog (Sep 6, 2018)

gonzalez said:


> Can you mount pinguiculas or do they need soil? I've heard they don't like getting wet.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


Pinguicula is a very big group of plants and have very different demands. There are very few thrue epifytes and they are quite rare (and expensive). The one I grow P.mesophytica is one of them. Google it and you will find some amazing insitu photos. However, there are many Pings that grow naturally on rock walls with wery sparse soil. Some of them might work good mounted. One example is P Cyclosekta.

Pings love wet conditions. But the heterophyllus types that need a winter rest will not tollerate wet conditions during the rest. My Mesophytica is mounted away from the mister on a dry spot. In the summer i Water it manually 2-4 times a month, in the winter I give it no water.

BR
Magnus


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## Greasy (Sep 1, 2011)

Try some of the tuberous utricularias. I suggest U. alpina or U. asplundii. Alpina is fairly easy to get a hold of. 

U. nelumbifolia and U. humboldtii would probably work in broms, but i think their growth habit is pretty messy and the traps are large enough they could eat tadpoles. 

They all have large showy flowers.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

I really like Utricularias and think they are underrated in the vivarium hobby. Ive tried Nepenthes and tropical Pinguicula in vivariums but never had long term success. I am currently trialing some of the below species in some 10 gallon vivariums to see how they do. But this is my general notes for various species:

Utricularia calycifida and Utricularia longifolia grown in moist long fiber sphagnum

Utricularia pubescens, Utricularia livida, Utricularia sandersonii, and Utricularia bisquamata grown in moist to wet peat/sphagnum/sand mix.

Utricularia heterosepala, utricularia graminifolia grown in more saturated wet areas.

Just make sure that the water is RO or distilled.

I dont have any experience with the more epiphytic Utricularia species and they seem to be harder to find anyways.


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## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

interesting to hear nepenthes are apparently safe around frogs, I pretty much rejected the thought of adding those due to concerns about the frogs.

but I do have 2 species of urticularia, not sure right now what species exactly, but they're terrestial, not epiphytic. so far they seem to do well, they look nice, and definitely completely safe around frogs.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There was a relevant story in the news a few weeks ago regarding salamanders and _Sarracenia_. This is not meant to dissuade anyone, and don't think we can draw any conclusions for captive dart frog care; I just think it is interesting.

Pitcher Plants with a Taste for Salamanders? â€” In Defense of Plants

I recall also a segment in (IIRC) BBC Earth that showed how some frogs make a living out of diving into pitchers and stealing the insects trapped there.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

My group of auratus lives in a terrarium which is stocked with Nepenthes. 

Only issue I've encountered so far is that you can't just throw in field sweepings as you would when you have other plants due to the sensitivity of the pitcher plants.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

In the March 2019 Issue of the DN-magazine, there is a wonderfull article about Nepenthes and frogs (Philautus sp.). They also print the magazine in english btw!


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## ashdavisa (Oct 27, 2018)

The tadpoles got me interested, and apparently there are frogs that use Nepenthes for spawning! How cool 

(Not to imply that all frogs can, of course)


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Frogs and nepenthes make a great pair! I am brand new to owning dart frogs but have been “raising” green tree frogs in my greenhouse unintentionally for a few years now. They definitely raise tadpoles in them and also hang out to take advantage of the pitchers natural bug attracting prowess. I am also brand new to the forum and can’t figure out how to post a pic. I would be happy to share a few tree frog nepenthes shots if someone would be so kind as to point out what I am missing and how simple it is really. Thanks folks


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

CCooper420 said:


> Frogs and nepenthes make a great pair!


You could not be more wrong, this only goes for a few frog and/or nepenthes species. Most nepenthes get realy big and not all of our frogs will be able to escape their trap. 

I would never advice to put frogs and nepenthes together, but I am also saying it is not impossible. You just have to know what you are doing and get all the correct information before you decide to put these plants and frogs together. Dart frogs and nepenthes also originate from a different continent, don't forget that.





I upload my images on "IMGBB" and copy the link, you can also use "IMGUR"


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Maybe instead of telling me I couldn’t be more wrong ( which of course I could) you could give some instances or proof of the relationship being truly detrimental to frogs. The bigger the pitcher the easier it is for the frog to get in and out. I see it every day with tree frogs of all sizes some 2” long on down to .400” long. I have yet to see a dead frog in a nepenthes pitcher in my five years of keeping nepenthes. Frogs can walk up a wet vertical glass wall. What on earth makes you think they can’t climb out of a pitcher? Have you even ever seen nepenthes in person?


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Oh sorry I forgot to thank you for the image info!


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

https://ibb.co/Ctww2zZ


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

https://ibb.co/L960s6r


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

https://ibb.co/HYfT0w1


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

CCooper420 said:


> Maybe instead of telling me I couldn’t be more wrong ( which of course I could) you could give some instances or proof of the relationship being truly detrimental to frogs. The bigger the pitcher the easier it is for the frog to get in and out. I see it every day with tree frogs of all sizes some 2” long on down to .400” long. I have yet to see a dead frog in a nepenthes pitcher in my five years of keeping nepenthes. Frogs can walk up a wet vertical glass wall. What on earth makes you think they can’t climb out of a pitcher? Have you even ever seen nepenthes in person?


The relationship is complicated to say the least. Many frog species in the wild lay eggs in Nepenthes that occur in their habitat because they provide some of the only available water pools. However, as Tijl stated, dart frogs in particular come from a different continent so having them living together with Nepenthes is not "normal" for them. Regardless, as I mentioned before, I have auratus and Nepenthes together in a terrarium and they do well. But this is probably because I've selected Nepenthes species that currently do not present a threat to the frogs. However I will look to rehouse the plants in a few years when they get bigger and would potentially represent a threat.

What kind of Nepenthes do you have? Many species have differences in trapping mechanisms inside the pitchers. For example some species have waxy coating inside which effectively nullifies the "sticking to glass" that a lot of frogs can do. Other species have very thick fluid inside which could also hamper a frog's escape. And last but not least, some species produce enormous pitchers, which could provide a real challenge for smaller frogs.


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

So much of what we are doing and providing is not normal but hey we are trying hard; otherwise we wouldn’t be here!

I am addressing the issue from a logical and mechanical POV. Are darts frogs less nimble or physically capable than other frogs found on other continents? I venture a guess dart frogs are equally as physically capable as other species on other continents of comparable size. That sound reasonable enough? Will frogs in some number die in pitchers in the wild? I’m guessing yes. I can say I haven’t seen one dead in any pitchers I have in five years. I have a few dozen species and over 200 hybrid nepenthes. Pitcher size does range but includes some over 9” tall. The collection literally runs the whole gamut from lowlanders like ampullaria and albomarginata to highlanders like Hamata and jamban ( which has the most viscous fluid in my collection). More likely than the nepenthes actually winning out over the frog is that the frog was already sick and chose the pitcher as a comforting place to die or something of the sort. Anyone consider that one? I think it is absolutely more probable but I may be a little biased when it comes to nepenthes😏.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

CCooper420 said:


> Maybe instead of telling me I couldn’t be more wrong ( which of course I could) you could give some instances or proof of the relationship being truly detrimental to frogs. The bigger the pitcher the easier it is for the frog to get in and out. I see it every day with tree frogs of all sizes some 2” long on down to .400” long. I have yet to see a dead frog in a nepenthes pitcher in my five years of keeping nepenthes. Frogs can walk up a wet vertical glass wall. What on earth makes you think they can’t climb out of a pitcher? Have you even ever seen nepenthes in person?


Before i started the frog hobby, ive kept nephentes for around 6 years? That makes it 15years of keeping nepenthes now?
I still own one nepenthes that is currently 4 years old. I can post some pictures if you want, its a pretty big one! 

As Johan stated above, some nepethes have a wax layer and most frogs would not be able to escape from this trap. I know you have experience with your treefrogs and nepenthes, but you must recognize this is not enough... Your judgement or statement is based only on your personal experience with one species of frog? 
That is why you just cannot say that frogs and nepenthes are great together. 

In my years of experience ive seen a few hobbyists that lost their frogs in the nepenthes traps...



I would love to see some pictures of your frogs and nepenthes tho! I think this is a realy interesting topic.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

CCooper420 said:


> Frogs can walk up a wet vertical glass wall.


Some can, some cannot. My imis can, my leucs effectively cannot. 

I really don't think that drawing conclusions about dart frogs in a viv based on tree frogs in a greenhouse is going to be very accurate. Darts are fairly different, physically and behaviorally. 

Part of this dispute is undoubtedly due to the fact that dart froggers tend to be very conservative in their husbandry habits. Most of us don't tolerate risks, however slight they may be.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ooh , I missed the imgbb links but they don't seem to work.

You have to select "BBcodes big with link" when copying the link, than your pictures show


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)




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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)




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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Beautifull collection and great pictures! Im very jealous on your greenhouse and treefrogs that live in there. Realy amazing.


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Thanks for the tips! 
I agree it is not a good enough cross section of observations to draw total conclusions for all species of frogs. I certainly would hate for someone to lose a frog due to my opinion. Most of us simply don’t have room for a nepenthes to thrive anyway. They get really large in relation to a vivarium no matter the species. 
I understand and respect a conservative approach to husbandry of all things. I have not fertilized my neps in over two years. I will get them this fall probably. 
I certainly agree that the chances of finding a dead frog in a nepenthes you don’t have are zero. So... +1 for keeping you nepenthes and frogs separated. As for coming up with any real and rational benefit to a nepenthes in a vivarium with frogs I can not.


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

So these ARE in separate tanks.


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

That looks like a Neofinetia (vanda) that your Ranitomeya is chilling on. If it is a Neo’, have you had success with them flowering in viv’s?


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

Supposed to be fragrant and smells like jasmine.


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

Fun fact, Neofinetia falcata is the first documented ‘house plant’.. indigenous to China and Japan, there was a Shogun back in the day that found it in a local forest, collected a specimen or two and posted them around his ‘home’. From there, if my memory serves correct, he had people go out and regularly collect them to put on pillars around his home, and around the local village.


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

I have read the same fact. It is sometimes referred to as the warrior or samurai orchid for this very reason. New variations were considered status symbols. 

I have not grown it in a viv for long enough for it to flower I don’t think. This is actually a hybrid. I have several varieties of pure neo but pictured is a hybrid which is super vigorous and actually makes a pink flower. I will have to check it’s parentage when I can get to the tag in the greenhouse to let you know more. I can tell you that the size of the plant is maybe 30% larger in every way than a pure neofinetia. Also the flowers are shaped differently and not as delicate or beautiful in my opinion.


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## Eruantien (Dec 23, 2014)

Also known as The Wind Orchid, yeah, if I’m not mistaken, this is a highly hybridized orchid; to the point where a true Neo’ is more rare than the hybrids. True Neo’ flowers will be white, full/pure white... that however does not go to say that hybrid flowers can’t be full white.. 

Supposedly, all smell of or similar to Jasmine and are quite fragrant for their size. Honestly, can’t remember where I read/heard that.. don’t quote me, however, this orchid is probably the one I have spent the most time researching.

To your point of it being a status symbol back then.. it still is. There are people that specialize in growing these plants today and hold competitions in regard to this plant in which require an invitation from the society in order for you to be able to enter your plant as a specimen. Some of these plants end up for sale and fetch A LOT more than what most people would expect.. not talking $40-$50; talking hundreds of dollars. Obviously these specimens would be exceptional representations of their species.

They love a root soaking and fair light as all Vandas do however, Neo’s naturally grow on deciduous trees. They prefer that their roots dry slightly between waterings and they need a seasonally cool period based off of memory, again, so long as I am not mistaken. I could very well be wrong.

Sorry, that was a regurgitation of information that has been stored for a while.. at the very least, I’m happy my identification was on enough to spot a Neofinetia. .

Cheers! Hope it flowers for you!


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Not at all. I welcome any and all information. 
True neos are a little pricey but bought small are reasonable and reasonably easy to care for. Here are a few specimens that are growing inside open air. The neo pictured is full on pure. It came from a circle of snobs if you will. It does have delicate Snow White flowers that can fill the house. It is a sweet warm smell similar to jasmine.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

CCooper420 said:


>


Are you by any chance on some of the facebook groups relating to Nepenthes?

I've been growing Nepenthes for some good 18 years now, with the last 7 years really expanding my collection. I grow most of mine on a sunny windowsill.


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Johanovich
I am not really on Facebook. My family has a very limited page to keep up with kids activities but am not a member of any groups. I would love a few nepenthes “friends” though to share knowledge and experiences with. If you would like to swap emails I’m about it. Not sure the kosher way to address and handle all that stuff. I am new to forums in general and don’t know the Etiquette.

Could someone please tell me how to highlite the post you are responding to? I realize it makes it a lot easier to follow. I can copy it but am unsure how to make it show up as “original post”. thanks for your patience!!

I have had good luck in my home and placing them in other homes. Lots of hybrids do well and pitcher inside homes. My hybrid collection is mostly from exotica plants. Most species I have obtained from Wistuba or Borneo Exotics. 
Nepenthes are my favorite plants by a LONG shot. Let’s trade?!


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Sorry for hijacking the post. These are all shots taken on family land where I live. we have no fewer than five carnivorous species on the land. I can say that I have also never seen a dead frog in a sarracenia pitcher. I have seen a wasp attacking a mostly dead green anole in one however! Wasp are extremely common in the sarracenia here but will also chew through the sides of the pitchers to escape sometimes.


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## CCooper420 (Jul 17, 2019)

Oops forgot the pings


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

CCooper420 said:


> Johanovich
> I am not really on Facebook. My family has a very limited page to keep up with kids activities but am not a member of any groups. I would love a few nepenthes “friends” though to share knowledge and experiences with. If you would like to swap emails I’m about it. Not sure the kosher way to address and handle all that stuff. I am new to forums in general and don’t know the Etiquette.
> 
> Could someone please tell me how to highlite the post you are responding to? I realize it makes it a lot easier to follow. I can copy it but am unsure how to make it show up as “original post”. thanks for your patience!!
> ...


You press the "quote" button in the lower right corner of a post. Then you get a highlighted post like the one above this text.

I wouldn't mind trading some plants, but only if you're located in Europe. I'm not planning on getting phytosanitary certificates to send out plants that then might not survive the trip. I am always eager to exchange information, I'll shoot you a pm later.


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## narnythegreat (Jul 29, 2019)

Those Nepenthes are gorgeous! I am so adding this to my list of must haves in my terrarium!


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## mcknzAlex (Jun 13, 2019)

Carnivorous Plants For Beginners

Take some time reading this article to find out which carnivorous plant is safe for your frog.


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## narnythegreat (Jul 29, 2019)

Yep, spent the evening reading. Taking my time setting things up.


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