# Water Compatible Darts



## labrashj (Apr 22, 2015)

If I want to have a small stream and pool in the vivarium I'm building, what is the best species to keep? I'm leaning towards Ameerega right now due to the fact that they often live near streams in the wild. Josh's Frogs also mentions that Auratus enjoy a water feature and I found information on animaldiversity.org that says they also live near small streams and pools. Since I'd like to have some verticality in the vivarium, is there any evidence that either subspecies prefers to climb more than the other? Also any suggestions for other subspecies that would like these conditions? I've read a number of threads on water and drowning and all that and I know to have several avenues out of the water and no overhangs the frogs can get under. Thanks!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Water features are a bad idea for your first build (or 2nd, 3rd...) .
The best advice I've read on here lately, (@Socratic Monologue ) is to choose the DART FROGS you want and then design the tank around their NEEDS not around YOUR wants (I paraphrased) . I'm building an Ameerega bassleri vivarium right now (40"x18"x18"), there's most definitely no water feature in the tank.


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## SkubaSTI (May 20, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Water features are a bad idea for your first build (or 2nd, 3rd...) .
> The best advice I've read on here lately, (@Socratic Monologue ) is to choose the DART FROGS you want and then design the tank around their NEEDS not around YOUR wants (I paraphrased) . I'm building an Ameerega bassleri vivarium right now (40"x18"x18"), there's most definitely no water feature in the tank.


Out of curiosity is there a good resource with species specific setup information?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Pond features and water falls and small streams are done by those with knowledge of risk and an experienced acceptance of losses and givins. Or have a long term system developed through much intimacy years meaning, with the tank the gear of the tank, the days of details, because water has the power make good things unstable, and bad things to contact all..


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

SkubaSTI said:


> Out of curiosity is there a good resource with species specific setup information?


There's a caresheet section here that is a good start, then there's the search function on this forum.


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

If you google image search waterfall vivarium, or join the facebook groups and watch various vivariums that get posted, you will see quite a few people doing this. But most of them frankly look terrible and will get worse over time. The water mixing with the substrate, frog poop, dead bugs etc. And worse yet 90% of the water features I have seen have no means of filtering the water whatsoever. The remaining 10% have some kind of filtration going but I have yet to see a single example that allowed for that filtration to actually be cleaned out short of any biological material just breaking down completely through decay.

Thus even if you make a waterfall the best it will ever look is shortly after its setup, after that it will begin to get gross... As someone who keeps a variety of freshwater aquariums I can not emphasize enough the importance of proper filtration for aquatics plants and animals. 

Anyway none of the "dart frog" species need or particularly want a water feature. There are a variety of frogs that would use such a feature and if you prefer to have a significant water feature in a tank then you are probably better off pursuing one of those species and designing a tank around them in the form of a proper paludarium.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Everything said in this thread is correct, especially the part about designing around a particular species rather than designing then figuring out what to put in a tank. Having said that, there are some frogs that live around water in nature. I only have one tank that has a moving water feature in it and I only did that grudgingly based on what I had read. That tank is large (90 gallon) and contains Ameerega pepperi. The large part is important because there is plenty of floor space that isn't associated with the water feature and that is where the frogs spend the majority of their time. I don't know for fact that the water feature aids in breeding success because I have only ever had the pepperi in the tank with the water feature, so I don't know if they would breed without it. What I do know is that designing the tank, even knowing what was going in there and reading everything under the sun about making water features, I still am not sure how successful it was. The tank has been set up a couple of years now (I should go back and check my build thread to see how long, but meh) and it is still functional. However, it makes a lot of noise meaning the pump is probably angled so that it sucks air, or something similar. I DO NOT look forward to when the pump gives up. That will be a pill. The foam I made the water fall/drip wall out of is sort of separated from the glass in the back. There are a lot of little things that make me wish I didn't have to deal with the water feature. All worth it because the pepperi are breeding, but I sure wish I didn't need it.

fishingguy, I think you will be ok without a water feature for Chromies. From what I read, they are relatively easy to breed without a water feature. Other Ameerega, however, might be helped by having one. There aren't many situations where I would recommend a water feature, but I wouldn't fight somebody about it for Ameerega.

OP, Ameerega might be appropriate, but only if the tank is really large. One of the big problems with water features in most of the tanks I see posted on here by new folks is that they are in tanks that are much too small for them. I agree with minorhero's assessment of other aspects of water features and my own is actually a pretty good example of what he said. If your tank has a large footprint (3 feet long or more, I would say), Ameerega might work. They are bigger jumpers than almost any of my other frogs, so they need more space, IMHO. If you don't have this kind of space, the only frog I can suggest would be E. anthonyi. There are just not many frogs that do very well with wet feet all the time but anthonyi seem to be more resistant to it than most. They are good climbers, too, and spend time aloft, as opposed to my pepperi that stay on the ground most of the time.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

There's plenty of aquatic and semiaquatic amphibians, including anurans of several families. Most of them are bigger than anything in the dart family. Often much bigger.

It's _entirely possible_ to filter, and filter _well_, viv water feature water. However it's vastly easier to do so, especially over the long haul, OUTSIDE the viv. Drain to a separate sump, and return via canister filter. Hell, stick a UV sterilizer after the canister if you feel like it.

All this is easier with size and volume. Which gets me back to non-dart anurans. Or for that matter, stream-dwelling caudates. Ever seen _Psuedotriton ruber_ in the wild? _Eurycea longicauda_? _Dicamptodon tenebrosus_? All are good candidates, for their entire lifespans (which can be decades...), for large naturalistic vivaria with lotic water features. And they are gorgeous, active, fascinating, and can be legally harvested from the wild in many of the states they live in (but not all - check first!)

If you want darts and a stream, from what I've learned here about darts (which is ALL I know about darts), *just make two vivs*. Twice the fun, twice the pleasure. Build one to the darts, build the other (with the stream) to yourself. 

I do know quite a bit about vivarium water features involving streams and waterfalls. Bigger is better. A 24" cube is small. Too small for a good, lasting, low-hassle job in the long haul. A 36x18x36 is medium-small, maybe almost medium. My biggest build, since torn down (had it in a former house), was about 60"T x 32"W x 24"D. That "huge monster" - which after some time I came to view as a solid medium-sized viv, had a small cascade in it, with a total drop of about 16-18". I had to crank down the canister output nearly all the way to not have just _a damned mess_ of splashwater and dislodged substrate on the glass. Really, the best way to do such a thing would be all hardscape (I'd just do epoxy on foam cliffs and ledges again as in "my monster"), with a very few planting pockets for trailing plants (e.g. https://www.glassboxtropicals.com/Episcia-Silver-Skies-p/epissilver.htm) up fairly high (and set back from the water) with dedicated drainage to a dump-bucket, and the cascade and stream and the whole damn watershed except those few planting holes draining to a sump that your canister pulls from. My mistake was too many (and too large) planting spots, with lots of the watershed draining into those. They had separate drainage, but with all the splashing (and misting) the substrate could get much too wet and I also had a lot of leakage from my cascade into my dump buckets. I'd also build not so tall - maybe 48" max - and much wider - say 60" - and oh a little deeper - perhaps 32". Less drop to the water, more horizontal flow. Plywood hull, all Drylok'd, then foam the hardscape, then epoxy the hardscape and all the Drylok except the ceiling and upper walls. My beast was on wheels, which was a great idea I'd never fail to repeat.

So by all means, please build a dedicated water-feature viv. Because you are not both omniscient and infallible, you will be simply unable to avoid learning A TON. But do not impose the real cost of your learning on other creatures. Keep the cost on yourself alone, until you have developed the knowledge and abilities to drive down the cost to something you can ethically impose on the other creatures.

Good luck, man.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I would actually recommend a plumbed water feature (drilling through glass with external sump) to a serious beginner because it can be very helpful moderating temperatures during power failures / AC problems, regulating humidity, absorbing heat from strong lighting, and makes it easy to prevent the pump from getting clogged as well as keeping a shallow pond / stream in the tank. I purposely have done water features in the past to keep the tank cooler,as cold air sinks and travels along the floor from HVAC vents in the room which then cools the sump below the ambient room temperature. I've known a lot of people over the years lose frogs when the air conditioner went out. I've taken blocks of ice (dechlorinated of course) and put them in the frogs' sump in the past when I knew our AC was having issues to buy me some time until it was fixed. A much safer temporarily solution compared to putting frozen water bottles in an aquarium but I've done that too just wrapped in paper towels to prevent frogs from getting stuck to them.

Drilling glass can be tricky, but generally if you go slow and attempt to practice on a cheap ten gallon or something first I haven't broken glass yet. I actually broke the glass of a ten gallon when I over tightened and then attempted to loosen a bulkhead than the drilling itself.

But first determine what frogs interest you first and then go from there.


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## labrashj (Apr 22, 2015)

This is a lot to take in. I appreciate all of the feedback. I was basing the water feature on the fact that Ameerega live adjacent to water in the wild combined with all the times I've seen the user "Ed" post that healthy dart frogs are very unlikely to drown barring poor water feature construction such as here: https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/285074-pool-no-pool.html#post2700866 and here: https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/81238-much-water.html. Anyway, I will build, plant, and seed isos and springtails long before any frogs are put in. I was planning on drilling out the tank for a plumbed water area with a sump. I'm planning on a 36x18x36 front-opening enclosure with perhaps 10-15% water. I've read the risks and challenges of a water feature. I just want to do it as well as I can. Again, not shutting down conversation, still haven't purchased anything. Thanks for your time, everyone.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Isopods will drown themselves in your water feature, (well, I've found lots of dead issues drowned in water dishes in my tanks) , powder blue Isopods are the worst for this


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Anyway, I will build, plant, and seed isos and springtails long before any frogs are put in. I was planning on drilling out the tank for a plumbed water area with a sump. I'm planning on a 36x18x36 front-opening enclosure with perhaps 10-15% water.


Good deal, you could enjoy operating this. You will enjoy building it out (just get a build journal going for yourself, and take notes on both 1) what you did & how you did it, 2) what doesn't work as hoped, what you do along the way to fix it and how it works out, and 3) what was such a fail it needs not to be repeated next build). 

It seems one of the most common complaints with viv newbs is fogging glass. Given what you're set on doing, I recommend you set your open-water region back a little from the front glass. Every viv I have made with a pool area right up against the front glass, has been much more prone to glass fogging than the vivs where the pool was more centered in the front-to-back dimension.

Also don't make any waterfalls or step pools too tall. Splashing is way more trouble than it's worth.

Good luck!


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## labrashj (Apr 22, 2015)

jgragg said:


> Good deal, you could enjoy operating this. You will enjoy building it out (just get a build journal going for yourself, and take notes on both 1) what you did & how you did it, 2) what doesn't work as hoped, what you do along the way to fix it and how it works out, and 3) what was such a fail it needs not to be repeated next build).
> 
> It seems one of the most common complaints with viv newbs is fogging glass. Given what you're set on doing, I recommend you set your open-water region back a little from the front glass. Every viv I have made with a pool area right up against the front glass, has been much more prone to glass fogging than the vivs where the pool was more centered in the front-to-back dimension.
> 
> ...


Both this and the previous post about springtail loss to water are fantastic, specific, useful information. I appreciate everyone's assistance. I'm a bit nervous about drilling out the glass and I may see if I can find a glass shop that can do it but if not I'll just risk it. I can practice on a 10 gallon that I have sitting around unused.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

labrashj said:


> Both this and the previous post about springtail loss to water are fantastic, specific, useful information. I appreciate everyone's assistance. I'm a bit nervous about drilling out the glass and I may see if I can find a glass shop that can do it but if not I'll just risk it. I can practice on a 10 gallon that I have sitting around unused.


I'm not super skilled at any handy type jobs, but I've drilled about 15 holes in glass and only had it crack twice. Both times easily fixable. And again, I'm not good with power tools so I was likely pressing too hard. 
Slow and steady wins the race for this 


Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I've drilled about 15 holes in glass and only had it crack twice. Both times easily fixable. And again, I'm not good with power tools so I was likely pressing too hard.


Damn. 15% breakage is a terrible stat! "Pressing" is the giveaway word here. Stop pressing, keep everything cool with water or oil, and you might never crack another.



> I'm a bit nervous about drilling out the glass and I may see if I can find a glass shop that can do it but if not I'll just risk it. I can practice on a 10 gallon that I have sitting around unused.


No need to be nervous. Also, don't ask anyone to do it for you - you've got this. An even cheaper practice piece can be bought at Lowe's for about $2 - just go get one of their little tiny panes of glass, and bore a half-dozen holes in that first. Save that 10-g for a better use, like your misting system reservoir.

The key, for non-experts, to no pressing and keeping cool is job orientation. If you can place the work in the *horizontal* plane, at least until you've gotten reliably good at boring holes through glass, that will just make things so much easier. I (not an expert, but an apprentice, let's say) now do some big tanks in the upright position, and just keep a hose running on the grind face, but it took me a while to work up to that point. Horizontal lets you just let gravity, the weight of the power tool, dictate the pressing. _All the hands are doing is keeping the tool in the correct position and location._ And with a ring of clay to keep a pool of water on the grind face, there's almost no chance of overheating the work, ruining your diamond hole saw and cracking your glass. Really the only time things get a little dicey is at the end, when you're about to break through. Invariably you get through some part of the circle first, and the water starts pouring out and risks draining your cooling pool. But if you've done a good job keeping the drill and hole saw level, you're just about to cut through the full ring and there's nothing to worry about. If you are worried, ask a helper to slowly pour water into your clay ring as you continue with the slow drilling.

I've never broken a single piece. Not yet. Surely I will. But every job I say to myself, "not this one, dummy", and take care to make it so.

Finally, "not good with power tools" sounds a little hopeless and passive. Nobody starts out any good at all with power tools. Experience and effort / attention are all it takes to get better - maybe even good, some day, for someone who isn't seriously compromised. A cordless drill is about the safest - for the body and the work piece - power tool imaginable to start out with.

Good luck, guys!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

jgragg said:


> Damn. 15% breakage is a terrible stat! "Pressing" is the giveaway word here. Stop pressing, keep everything cool with water or oil, and you might never crack another.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The two panes I broke were when I was just getting started. I've gotten better at not pressing on the drill ;-) and letting the drill do the work lol. 


Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## labrashj (Apr 22, 2015)

Again, there's some great information here. I didn't even think about just buying a pane of glass to practice on at Lowe's. Is the typical glass I'll be dealing with 1/4" thick? I can't find the specifics for the enclosure I'm looking at but I'm assuming it will be standard.


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## Broken Stoge (May 19, 2020)

labrashj said:


> Again, there's some great information here. I didn't even think about just buying a pane of glass to practice on at Lowe's. Is the typical glass I'll be dealing with 1/4" thick? I can't find the specifics for the enclosure I'm looking at but I'm assuming it will be standard.


I only find 3/32" glass on their website. Doesn't seem very thick to me honestly. I'm also terrible at searching for things so I may be mistaken.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Yeah, Lowe's sells very thin glass. If you have an Ace Hardware somewhere close, they will at least sell "double strength" glass which has been good for most purposes for me. 

Mark


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

The Lowe's thing, I just meant for practice pieces. That super-thin, small-dimension stuff they sell isn't good for all that much, but it does have its niche. I've used it to:


patch holes I drilled in vivs (sometimes you just put the hole in the wrong place, and sometimes after a while you want to reconfigure your setup), 
make replacement covers (swapping out part of the original screen) for small Exos, 
make baffles in sumps made from 10-g and 20-L tanks (a great use for those little panes),
and finally, just to hone my glass-cutting & -drilling skills...it's cheap enough to just turn a little of it into garbage.

For things like sliding glass doors, I just go to my local glass shop and order what I need, cut to size and sanded along the edges. I've got about a half mile of plastic track for 1/4" glass that I bought, oh jeez, must have been about 12-15 years ago. I bought about a damn mile of it back in the day, and am about halfway through the box. So all my doors are 1/4. But that's fine, as most of my DIY vivs are pretty big so thin plate glass would be dangerous.



> Is the typical glass I'll be dealing with 1/4" thick?


Thickness is a function of both span and depth (and thus, volume and water weight) if you're talking about aquariums. Small aquariums use glass quite a bit thinner than 1/4". Glass is stinkin' heavy. Here's a fun toy to play with, regarding aquarium glass thickness:

https://www.easycalculation.com/measurement/aquarium-glass-thickness-calculator.php

Note I found a place elsewhere, saying the aquarium-industry safety factor standard is 2.3. That might be a reasonable value to populate that field with...

good luck!


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## minorhero (Apr 24, 2020)

Broken Stoge said:


> I only find 3/32" glass on their website. Doesn't seem very thick to me honestly. I'm also terrible at searching for things so I may be mistaken.


Your mileage may vary with your local store. I know at least some of their stores do carry 1/8th inch (mine does) but I won't swear to all doing so.


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## Broken Stoge (May 19, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Broken Stoge said:
> 
> 
> > I only find 3/32" glass on their website. Doesn't seem very thick to me honestly. I'm also terrible at searching for things so I may be mistaken.
> ...


Fair enough. I was just going off of my local Lowes website.


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## yjkodiak (Oct 28, 2014)

My first dart frog build and all my dart frog builds after that have a water feature. The key is adjusting it to the species. For example, all my tanks have water trickling diagonally down a log. At the bottom, I leave a small pool about half the height of the frog. If the frogs are breeding and froglets are emerging, I reduce the height of the pool to half the height of a froglet. However, my mantella baroni love the water. They swim and they even go into the water to catch bugs. So I let their pool get a little higher in "monsoon season', but still no higher than the height of the frog.


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