# Shipping to Singapore?



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

I've had a sales thread up in the classifieds for a while. I just got a email from someone that is interested in all 3 froglets that I have for sale. My only dilemma is that they are located in Singapore, Singapore. Has any one had experience with shipping in situations like this? PLEASE inform me of anything that I need to know (permits required, ETC). There is another guy that lives 30 miles away from me that is interested too. So if shipping to Singapore is to risky I can still sell them to him.


----------



## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I could tell you it would be a huge hassle for the avg person. You would need CITES cb documents, you would have to sched flights and connections, Fish and Wildlife inspections, customs inspection,you would need to hire a Broker at the port to walk it through at the airport, etc, etc. for 3 frogs?


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

billschwinn said:


> I could tell you it would be a huge hassle for the avg person. You would need CITES cb documents, you would have to sched flights and connections, Fish and Wildlife inspections, customs inspection,you would need to hire a Broker at the port to walk it through at the airport, etc, etc. for 3 frogs?


Is that really how much it takes to get 3 frogs to Singapore? Or are you just wondering that your self?

P.S. this package is going to be shipped by fedex. IDK if that changes anything


----------



## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

To give you an idea, Understory Enterprises is out of Canada. They had to submit the paperwork for the frogs entering the US a month before shipping. They will drive them into the US to ship them and to get them through customs. I assume it is due to the hassles of shipping them directly from Canada to the US. Maybe you can contact them and they can give you a good idea. However, I know they drive them into the US for shipping and the paperwork had to be submitted a month in advance.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bill is correct, to ship to Singapore you would need 

1) a exporter's license (see Importing and Exporting Your Commercial Wildlife Shipment) 

2) Proof that they are captive bred for the CITES permit (since Dendrobatids are listed as CITES II) 

3) inspection before it leaves the United States by USF&W (which means it has to ship through one of the several ports unless you are going to pay to have them available at the airport of your choice to inspect the package and it's contents (for proper labeling, correct paperwork, the number of animals matches the number on the permits, correct identification of above said animals)

4) Customs has to inspect it to make sure that any appropriate fees or taxes are going to be paid (for example getting paid one price and declaring another lesser price) 

See the above link for all of the relevent regulations and requirements.. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should add that, if you tried to bypass all of the red tape and ship them using a general shipper and are caught, you can face significant fines under the LACY Act (see http://www.eia-global.org/lacey/P6.EIA.LaceyReport.pdf for the penalities). Shipping them via Fed-Ex without all of the bells and whistles is going to be a big mistake... 

Ed


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

All right. Looks like I'll sell them to the guy 30 miles away from me then. Thanks once again!


----------



## JacobP (Feb 21, 2012)

I feel sorry for the person in Singapore, as frogs are probably hard to come by. But given the choice between exporting to Asia and selling them so someone that can pick them up you are so close. Really no question which is the best route for the frogs and yourself given the person close can provide adequate care.


----------



## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Also something to keep in mind , noobs pay attn., if you ship them to a middle man in this country and he says he will ship the guy overseas so you don't have to worry, that is known as conspiracy, and you might as well have fed exed them yourself as the fed govt will still treat you like you are a shoe bomber or something!


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

JacobP said:


> I feel sorry for the person in Singapore, as frogs are probably hard to come by. But given the choice between exporting to Asia and selling them so someone that can pick them up you are so close. Really no question which is the best route for the frogs and yourself given the person close can provide adequate care.


I know. I felt the same way. I sure hope the guy in Singapore find someone who can ship to him or someone in Singapore that breeds them.


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

This applies to plant stuff as well, I ordered a huge amount of moss from Ebay from Singapore not thinking anything of it, (Because nothing was mentioned in the auction about not being allowed in the us) I received an empty envelope from fedex way late and a stern notice from customs saying that the plants were confiscated. Sucked for me as I had assumed since they were on sale on ebay on a us site that it would be all good. I lost out on $200 right there which really pissed me off, as the seller still got his cash but I got screwed.


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

That's exactly why I asked here before shipping. I didn't want my customer to get some dead frogs and $204 dollars lost in shipping. Getting in trouble with the federal government never occurred to me.


----------



## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

My 2 cents worth on two points...While working overseas a while back, I went nuts on orchid availability, and purchased 7,000 US from registered growers. They expedited six documents from the local govt to cover my purchases. Also, my construction crew went into the jungle locally and harvested many large clusters of dendrochilum,etc. as a gift..I stashed the gifts in my clothing suitcase. Those with all the documentation, I declared thru customs in SFO..Bingo, they confiscated all of them, since they claimed I was short one local doc., not the cities paperwork. Those in my luggage made it to my home.The others that were confiscated went to Rod McLellan as a 'rescue'...
Since Singapore has dominated the aquarium trade including South america since about forever, I am curious why the person couldn't find a transhipper with all the required permits already in place....
Good you have a closer buyer; saves the frogs arses...


----------



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Besides all of the red tape I personally would always give the first shot to a local frogger.One reason is that there is little if any stress on the frogs(which is #1 in my book)

That being said If you ask advise why would you question Bill Schwinn or any other heavily experienced frogger?


Lou


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

oddlot said:


> That being said If you ask advise why would you question Bill Schwinn or any other heavily experienced frogger?


I know you aren't trying to be mean, and neither am I, but how would anyone know who has international shipping experience/knowledge, let alone someone who registered here less than 2 months ago?


----------



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

oneshot said:


> I know you aren't trying to be mean, and neither am I, but how would anyone know who has international shipping experience/knowledge, let alone someone who registered here less than 2 months ago?




I wasn't trying to be mean,but if you are new and ask a question and an experienced person answers,chances are they are answering because they know.If the experienced persons qualifications are questioned they can check his profile and past posts to get an idea of his knowledge instead of looking ignorant because they didn't like the answer.Again not trying to be mean just realistic.

Lou


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TURQ64 said:


> My 2 cents worth on two points...While working overseas a while back, I went nuts on orchid availability, and purchased 7,000 US from registered growers. They expedited six documents from the local govt to cover my purchases. Also, my construction crew went into the jungle locally and harvested many large clusters of dendrochilum,etc. as a gift..I stashed the gifts in my clothing suitcase. Those with all the documentation, I declared thru customs in SFO..Bingo, they confiscated all of them, since they claimed I was short one local doc., not the cities paperwork. Those in my luggage made it to my home.The others that were confiscated went to Rod McLellan as a 'rescue'...
> Since Singapore has dominated the aquarium trade including South america since about forever, I am curious why the person couldn't find a transhipper with all the required permits already in place....
> Good you have a closer buyer; saves the frogs arses...


If there was anything on the orchids that looked like soil, they would have been confiscated and possibly burned even if you had all of the correct permits.... Importation of any soil from outside the USA is prohibited and heavily enforced... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oneshot said:


> I know you aren't trying to be mean, and neither am I, but how would anyone know who has international shipping experience/knowledge, let alone someone who registered here less than 2 months ago?


A simple google search in which the phrase "USA wildlife export" provides the links to the appropriate page (first four search results).... 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JacobP said:


> I feel sorry for the person in Singapore, as frogs are probably hard to come by. But given the choice between exporting to Asia and selling them so someone that can pick them up you are so close. Really no question which is the best route for the frogs and yourself given the person close can provide adequate care.


Actually, I doubt they are that hard to come by...since South East Asia has become a major distribution hub for dendrobatids... See http://www.vincentnijman.org/files/a88_nijmanshepherd_poisonarrowfrog_biodivconserv_2.pdf 

Ed


----------



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

oddlot said:


> That being said If you ask advise why would you question Bill Schwinn or any other heavily experienced frogger?
> 
> 
> Lou


I understand what you mean when you say this and I have have been frustrated by the same thing on a different forum. When I questioned Bill, I was trying to get a better grasp on what he was saying. I was not quite understanding what he was saying and I wanted have a clear understanding to the answer to my question. That being said, I hope you understand. I understand what you are saying, but I think if anyone needs to question someone in order to have a greater understanding of what they are saying; they should by all means do it.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Strangely, while things still get through, Singapore is a bit more difficult to do things illegally. I have sent things there and purchased animals from there, they made sure all the paperwork was legit and the sources where correct. Japan.........egh...



Ed said:


> Actually, I doubt they are that hard to come by...since South East Asia has become a major distribution hub for dendrobatids... See http://www.vincentnijman.org/files/a88_nijmanshepherd_poisonarrowfrog_biodivconserv_2.pdf
> 
> Ed


----------



## bmartin04983 (Oct 20, 2011)

tachikoma said:


> This applies to plant stuff as well, I ordered a huge amount of moss from Ebay from Singapore not thinking anything of it, (Because nothing was mentioned in the auction about not being allowed in the us) I received an empty envelope from fedex way late and a stern notice from customs saying that the plants were confiscated. Sucked for me as I had assumed since they were on sale on ebay on a us site that it would be all good. I lost out on $200 right there which really pissed me off, as the seller still got his cash but I got screwed.


He / She might have been the one to put the stern notice in the envelope and never really shipped any moss to you.


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

bmartin04983 said:


> He / She might have been the one to put the stern notice in the envelope and never really shipped any moss to you.



The thought did cross my mind, but it was shipped FedEx and the envelope was open, and resealed with customs stamps all over it. Either way I got the short end of the stick and I like to think it was for an official reason instead of just plain theft. haha I might just be be naive though.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tachikoma said:


> The thought did cross my mind, but it was shipped FedEx and the envelope was open, and resealed with customs stamps all over it. Either way I got the short end of the stick and I like to think it was for an official reason instead of just plain theft. haha I might just be be naive though.


It was probably seized given the customs stamps. People often forget that shipments can still be seized even if all of the paperwork is in order if there appears to be soil or dirt in with the plants or even a single live invertebrate is found in the shipment. 

Ed


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Not to mention the need for a photo-sanitary certificate and USDA clearance. 



Ed said:


> It was probably seized given the customs stamps. People often forget that shipments can still be seized even if all of the paperwork is in order if there appears to be soil or dirt in with the plants or even a single live invertebrate is found in the shipment.
> 
> Ed


----------



## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2009)

Documents, shmockuments. 

Here is all you need:

"Sorry sir, I don't do any exports."

: )


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tachikoma said:


> This applies to plant stuff as well, I ordered a huge amount of moss from Ebay from Singapore not thinking anything of it, (Because nothing was mentioned in the auction about not being allowed in the us) I received an empty envelope from fedex way late and a stern notice from customs saying that the plants were confiscated. Sucked for me as I had assumed since they were on sale on ebay on a us site that it would be all good. I lost out on $200 right there which really pissed me off, as the seller still got his cash but I got screwed.


Didn't you pay via eBay approved PayPal? The seller should know the laws and be responsible for losses. You should have filed an "Item Not Received" claim. It doesn't matter what a seller says about not being responsible for Customs. If he chooses to sell and ship to you, he has to supply a product. You should have been able to get your money back. It would have taken a month or so, though.


----------



## Tjoen (Apr 17, 2010)

Hi,

I guess that I would share my 2 cents worth on this topic...

I finished part of my high school education in Singapore, visit every now and then for shopping (etc...) but don't live there permanently.

It is a beautiful island, city state and the only 1st world country in that region, where all the other neighbouring countries are still classified 3rd world developing countries.

However, few other countries would qualify for the title of "nanny state", if Singapore was in the running. They are very strict and authoritarian, telling all who reside there what they can or cannot do and enforce this with a slate of penalities ranging from administrative composition fines (in lieu of court prosecution), fines and the works... The society as a whole, is micromanaged and the government is highly intrusive into the life and habits of the private person there - intimately.

If you had a lot of money, like Eduardo Saverin and liked to keep to the well-trodden beaten path and no straying off it - I would even say that it would be very enjoyable there, The shopping, the nightlife, relative political and economical stability and security of the streets... BUT

If you liked to do something different, either by expression or just not fit into what is the norm, or conformity to the general man-on-the-street - like keeping weird pets (to the ordinary person), then you've had something else coming.

Reptiles and most (a vast majority) amphibians are strictly forbidden to be kept and I would suspect that the buyer who asked you to ship would not have explicitly discussed what was actually required in addition to a CITES permit (apart from admitting that it is illegal)... They require an import licence, customs clearance for live (AVI) cargo, import inspections for live animals on arrival and usually always by manifest cargo. A check with the Singapore authorities on their website or an email to the relevant section would usually garner you an efficient answer that they forbid such imports. 

Why they forbid it, beats me, but when I asked before they said something like the name was "Poison DF" rang alarm bells in their heads and they didn't want to entertain protracted queries and explainations that captive animals aren't poisonous and then if you took them on, they would tell you that only public zoos and aquaria are permitted, the common man is inequiped nor competent to handle such dangerous wildlife, they pose a biosecurity and ecosecurity risk (the frogs would invade the local ecosystem and kill off the local fauna and probably the humans with their namesake of "Poison..." It's like the ban on some taxa of frogs in Canada, just the name of Phyllobates terribilis give them chills and images of dead and dying people from having frogs in their midst...

They would tell you what dog or cat you could keep and how many to be licenced, (usually 1 in an apartment and 3 in a house) and what you could do with other pet animals such as birds or red-eared sliders (terrapins), other Chelonids (especially all land tortoises are forbidden) and I could go on and on...

I obtained a first-class education there and probably have their education system to thank for my ability to converse in English but I wouldn't want to live there if I was a dart frog enthusiast and was used to doing what I could do legally elsewhere or in the USA.

Some food for thought...


----------



## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

Haven't read this entire thread but Singapore (intl) FedEx is NOT overnight. Furthermore, customs can happily sit on your package for a few days while they inspect it. Which they often do, an I'm sure they do in Singapore. They likely wouldn't let frogs through if they found them. 

Booking freight space on alines is a lot of trouble, particularly since 9/11, and so are the wildlife import/export laws. At minimum you would need an import/export broker - and given the laws on wildlife I don't think the frogs would make it far along the process.


----------



## Tjoen (Apr 17, 2010)

No, most small packages go through a large x-ray and density scanner and the weird ones get picked out for additional screening.

Historically the ones that didn't make it are those packages packed full with tupperwares of spiders and snakes (they made the news in the papers though...). The individual plastic box-shaped containers with the individual small coiled dense masses, make it strange for the x-ray screener and they get picked out.

I doubt that a small package with 3 frogs would get picked out (and the potential Singapore buyer knows this as well...) but they would have to contend with the over 100F heat that the boxes are subjected to when in the back of a delivery truck which is usually an enclosed aluminium enclosure with the tropical sun shining on it.


----------



## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Didn't you pay via eBay approved PayPal? The seller should know the laws and be responsible for losses. You should have filed an "Item Not Received" claim. It doesn't matter what a seller says about not being responsible for Customs. If he chooses to sell and ship to you, he has to supply a product. You should have been able to get your money back. It would have taken a month or so, though.


I had no idea I could do this!! Damn this was almost a year ago now so I doubt I can do anything about it now.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tachikoma said:


> I had no idea I could do this!! Damn this was almost a year ago now so I doubt I can do anything about it now.


Sorry! They do have time limits that would have passed by now. They are pretty good about protecting their buyers most of the time.


----------



## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

tachikoma said:


> I had no idea I could do this!! Damn this was almost a year ago now so I doubt I can do anything about it now.


Call Paypal and see what their time limit is. See what they say. heck, the worst the could say is "Sorry, your out of luck"


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Froggywv said:


> Call Paypal and see what their time limit is. See what they say. heck, the worst the could say is "Sorry, your out of luck"


Too late. You have 45 days to begin filing your claim.


----------

