# about dart frog hybridization



## zh33887799 (Apr 30, 2014)

why can’t dart frog crossbreed with each other？ There is a man told me that they need to remain frog ’s pure blood，why？is hybridization cant get new species？？

i m sry, my english is poor ,hope u can answer my question thank u


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Because it isn't natural, and doesn't happen in the wild.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

This has been discussed many many times before, please use the search feature and you will find a lot on this subject.


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

Here's an example. Did you know that lions and tigers have been bred together by zoos to create "ligers"? These animals don't happen in the wild because lions and tigers don't live in the same place. (I think there's an exception somewhere but it's unique.) The same goes for dart frogs -- two different kinds that don't share the exact same habitat won't naturally breed.

Ligers are exotic and pretty, but they are an animal created by humans, not nature. Most people who keep dart frogs admire the variety that nature has created, and see no reason to interfere or "play god" by creating their own.

Also, suppose people kept on breeding lions and tigers together. Eventually, you're going to have lots of ligers and fewer lions and tigers. Same thing with two different species of frogs. There is a danger that the original species will disappear because of all the crossbreeding. Big cats and dart frogs are already disappearing because of humans invading their habitat. It's not ethical to add to this problem by breeding the original species away.

Additionally, we have very little (if any?) information about what problems may occur in hybrid frogs. People who breed dogs or cats very ethically are _extremely_careful when it comes to researching the lineage of animals, to avoid breeding ones that could have genetic problems. This is a very important part of keeping each breed strong and as healthy as possible. But there's no way right now we can do that with frogs. Do you want to take the risk that you're breeding frogs that may have serious health problems that they will then pass down to their young?

These are some of the arguments I have seen against hybridization, both on this forum and in my other research. I may have gotten some of it wrong, in which case I hope someone will correct me. Personally, I feel breeding is plenty fascinating and exciting enough within the same species.



oddlot said:


> This has been discussed many many times before, please use the search feature and you will find a lot on this subject.


It can be tough for people who aren't native English speakers, and it's hard to search foreign-language forums in the first place.


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## Mike1239 (May 15, 2012)

Well crossbreeding strengthens health in the long run. This is why "pure" breed dogs have so many health problems and often die of cancer compared to mixed breed dogs.


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

First, the difference is that domestic dogs are all the same species. Mixing breeds of cat or dog is not the same as mixing auratus and tinctorius, which are separate species. 

Second, that is true about some dog and cat breeds, but for others it's desirable to keep the traits of the original breed. For example, Burmese cats are especially hardy and long-lived with no genetic health problems, as well as very dog-like in their attachment to humans. If you want those traits, you go for a purebred from a knowledgeable, ethical breeder. 

I was using cats and dogs just as an illustration, since there's far too many differences in breeding them vis-a-via dart frogs, such as the lack of natural habitat for Pomeranians or Persians. ;-)


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## Mike1239 (May 15, 2012)

I understand but when you talk about dogs and cats there is a lot of inbreeding to keep the desired physical traits with little concern on health take all the dogs and cats with smushed faces that can hardly breath or the large dogs that hip and joint problems. I agree completely about what you said about keeping the species true to their heritage.


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

Mike1239 said:


> I understand but when you talk about dogs and cats there is a lot of inbreeding to keep the desired physical traits with little concern on health


Okay, you've made this point twice, so I guess I still don't get how this relates to hybridizing dart frogs. You're talking about intrabreeding. Has there been a great deal of health issues from keeping dart frog species discrete and not interbreeding? If so that is something I know nothing about.

I also just remembered that hybrid offspring are frequently infertile. Another reason to stick with the amazing variety of frogs already provided to us by nature and evolution.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

To put it in terms of dogs. Hybridization creates "mutts". Would you like to try to breed and sell mutts? To quote the movie "Jango"...it would be "a dubious proposition at best"


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Why at least once a month someone comes up with this idle question? I'm really tired, personally speaking.
I hope someone experienced write a sticky thread to which refer all those who regularly ask if they can or not mix frogs or hybridize them.


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

And I hope people can be more welcoming to newbies especially when English is not their first language.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

rigel10 said:


> Why at least once a month someone comes up with this idle question? I'm really tired, personally speaking.
> I hope someone experienced write a sticky thread to which refer all those who regularly ask if they can or not mix frogs or hybridize them.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10507-mixing-101-a.html


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I`ve seen the mixing question asked 100`s of times here.
If handled correctly, I think it`s a good question. I asked the very same thing way back and got slammed pretty good for it, while other people took the time to explain it to me.

Some people ask this with the sole intent of starting a war here. ( I don`t believe this is the case here)
If the subject bothers anyone that much simple ignore it and if it gets out of hand let the mods handle it.
That`s what they get the big bucks for.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Mine is not an attack on zh33887799, which I welcome. but a simple statement of fact. As Oddlot said, perhaps it would be better to use the search feature before starting a thread on a topic which is discussed at least once a month, and maybe just ask if there is anything unclear. Something unclear does not mean to start a thread with the title: "About dart frog hybridization", IMO.

I am not master in the English language too and I understand the difficulties of those who strive to express in a language other than their mother tongue.
Without controversy - even though I realize that my tone may seem controversial. 
Greetings to all and especially to newcomers


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> Why at least once a month someone comes up with this idle question?


How was it an idle question? 



> I'm really tired, personally speaking





rigel10 said:


> Mine is not an attack on zh33887799, which I welcome. but a simple statement of fact.


You just told the poster that you are tired of their question. Perhaps it's not an attack, but at the very least it doesn't add anything to the thread, nor did I see "welcome" in there at all. Perhaps frequenting a different forum than Beginner where these things happen would be less tiring.



rigel10 said:


> I hope someone experienced write a sticky thread to which refer all those who regularly ask if they can or not mix frogs or hybridize them.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendroboard-com-feedback-help-desk-questions/


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Without prejudice to the right of each person to say what he wants, to ask what he wants (also the topic of this thread) and to express his own opinion, you are right when you say that my post does not add anything to this thread. But it expresses only my complaint and it is also a right to express a complaint – a generic complaint, ie addressed to the topic and not to those who have posted it. 
To ask whether and why frogs can mix or hybridize, it simply means take again a topic that has been discussed several times here. Someone has even explicitly asked if he could put together more different species of dart frogs in the same viv; some seller even sells 2x1 frogs of different species as "best friends" (or "companion" or something like that). Examples are many.
Despite this thread has been started in this Beginner section with this title, I simply expressed my tiredness to hear once again speak to mix or hybridize frogs. That's all. My, I repeat, is not a polemic directed at anyone, just tiredness of hearing the repetition of the same things. 
The thread linked by Enlightened Rogue is enough to give all the answers we need on the issue. 
I do not understand the link you reported. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendroboard-com-feedback-help-desk-questions/
Maybe does not work the search feature? 
But if the search feature is not working, it does not mean that Google will not work if someone types what he wants: it just do a search. 
Sorry if I expressed myself not properly, but I am now helping with the Google translator to better define my thinking - and the Google translator English to Italian and vice versa is not very accurate.
In conclusion, if I offended you or someone else, I apologize, it was not my intention. But I'm sure that in the future I will read more other threads like these, and on this subject, and then I'll be silent leaving responses and conclusions to the others.
Greetings


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

rigel10 said:


> I do not understand the link you reported.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendroboard-com-feedback-help-desk-questions/


It's the link to the feedback forum here on Dendroboard. You could ask for whatever stickies you want there.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

InvertaHerp said:


> Because it isn't natural, and doesn't happen in the wild.



Not true. Here is a list of several species in which natural hybridization occurs.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

cml1287 said:


> Not true. Here is a list of several species in which natural hybridization occurs.


How is this link relevant to dart frog hybridization? I don't see any "naturally occurring" dart frog hybrids on this list. I also wouldn't reference Wikipedia as a scientific source.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Dev30ils said:


> How is this link relevant to dart frog hybridization? I don't see any "naturally occurring" dart frog hybrids on this list. I also wouldn't reference Wikipedia as a scientific source.


I was going to say the same thing. The word "frog" isn't even in the webpage.

I think the OP needs to check out post #12 by John and use the search feature here. Even more, go to google and type in site:dendroboard.com "mixing" or "hybridization" to find additional resources. We are just beating a dead horse here...


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Dev30ils said:


> How is this link relevant to dart frog hybridization? I don't see any "naturally occurring" dart frog hybrids on this list. I also wouldn't reference Wikipedia as a scientific source.


To say hybridization doesn't occur in nature is an inaccurate statement.

Can we definitively rule out the possibility that hybridization within dendrobatids has never occurred?

I'm not going to pretend like I understand everything this paper is saying, because I don't. Maybe this paper has been discussed here before and I didn't see it. I also understand this is one paper, and by no means concrete evidence. 

With that being said, if you give it a once over, it seems to have some interesting information on the possibility of hybridization contributing to phenotypic variability (among other things) within the same frogs in which "hybridization doesn't happen because it isn't natural, and doesn't happen in the wild."

Interesting, I did a search for the paper and relating titles on dendroboard and came up with only a few result, and none of which resulted in meaningful conversation. So while the same clique of people here that are so quick to jump down the throat of anyone who asks a simple question respond with the same advice, they're simultaneously ignoring or not even discussing other research.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Yikes this thread has a negative vibe lol


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

NOOOO! It's like groundhog day over and over.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

ndame88 said:


> NOOOO! It's like groundhog day over and over.


Its comments like this (and the usual comments that follow this particular question) that are doing a very good job at fostering a very unwelcoming atmosphere here. It's really unfortunate, but the same people have adopted the mob mentality when it comes to this question, and come across as very demeaning to new people. 

If it bothers you that much that someone is asking this, don't open the thread.


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

oldlady25715 said:


> To put it in terms of dogs. Hybridization creates "mutts". Would you like to try to breed and sell mutts? To quote the movie "Jango"...it would be "a dubious proposition at best"


While I agree with you in principle as far as the point you're trying to make, you might want to look up what labradoodles are sold for before making this argument. 

In terms of dogs, just because many breeders make irresponsible decisions by inbreeding for looks and/or actually detrimental physical characteristics, that doesn't make doing so a good idea. Or, in rather more basic terms, I am sure that at least once in your life your mother asked you if everyone else jumped off a bridge - would you jump too?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

oldlady25715 said:


> To put it in terms of dogs. Hybridization creates "mutts". Would you like to try to breed and sell mutts? To quote the movie "Jango"...it would be "a dubious proposition at best"


Well by that logic, all dogs are essentially mutts of wolves. Any given "pure breed" of dog is not a naturally occurring species. The wolf was hybridized, cross-bred and artificially selected to create all the breeds we know of today.

But because this happened before any of us were alive, we, as a society, recognize separate breeds as if they're different species. See where I'm going with this...? 

Hybridization can and has created new species, not just mutts. This is quite common, especially in plants.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

There is no doubt that two different animal species of the same genus, in nature, can hybridize, if they share the same geographical area. However, I am using the example of the imitator. 
Correct me, please, if I'm wrong or ignored my post. 
Why in nature in restricted areas, such as San Martin, Peru, there are distinct morph (intermedius, chazuta, banded, yumbatos)? Yet they could interbreed? I mean that even if it is not excluded that there are hybrid in nature, we find quite distinct morphs.
It is true that man hybridize species. In our hobby there is no written law that forbids it, there's only ethics shared by most froggers. Most does not mean all. The problem, when someone hybrid frogs, is: what to do of hybrids which have no commercial value and have no market? Who hybrid frogs he is sure to keep them in their viv until their natural death or he should hope, if it comes out from hobby, in the help of some friends frogger compassionate who will take care of his hybrids?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I believe the best course of action we can take when a newcomer asks this, or any number of other common questions, is to simply provide links to existing threads here. I'm sure many realize there are some people who just like to argue sensitive subjects. In Psych. we called them "Axis 2"!


edit: here's 2 to get you started

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/epipedobates/195130-tricolors-leucs-multispecies-question.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/185937-can-you-have-2-species-together.html

and a very important thread for those who are new: ignorant frog breeders
I refuse to type their name!


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I think if we're going to use dogs as an example, it's best to look at it from the direction of the fact that dogs are all descended from wolves. Yes, we could take dart frogs and begin crossing them and selecting them, and end up with a huge variety of phenotypes not currently seen, as we have with dogs. However, from the same perspective, with all the various dogs available in huge numbers, what would we do if wolves went extinct? You can't breed backwards to get the original. I already see other portions of the herp hobby going in a similar direction, such as leopard geckos. It's to the point where animals that show disturbing neurological symptoms are bred simply for the pattern/color variation, and then the breeders charge more for them. Meanwhile, if I want a normal, wild-type leopard gecko that is het for nothing, it's nearly impossible. Is this where the dart frog hobby needs to head?

Also, keep in mind that many issues that we see in pure bred dogs are present because we originally selected these traits in the first place! You can't really compare it to a wild strain of anything.


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

cml1287 said:


> Well by that logic, all dogs are essentially mutts of wolves. Any given "pure breed" of dog is not a naturally occurring species. The wolf was hybridized, cross-bred and artificially selected to create all the breeds we know of today.
> 
> But because this happened before any of us were alive, we, as a society, recognize separate breeds as if they're different species. See where I'm going with this...?
> 
> Hybridization can and has created new species, not just mutts. This is quite common, especially in plants.


You have this backwards - dogs are absolutely not hybridized wolves. Instead, they were wolves that showed similar behavioral and/or physical characteristics which were bred together to increase the chance of seeing those traits - this is the exact opposite of hybridization. The continued inbreeding ("line breeding" is inbreeding) of modern dog breeds is what has led to a number of the genetically related diseases such as hip dysphasia in golden retrievers and heart disease in Dobermans are due to this process. 

The poor husbandry decisions that have been made in the last century with purebred dogs are nothing to respect or emulate.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Some people ask this with the sole intent of starting a war here. ( I don`t believe this is the case here)


I could be wrong


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

cml1287 said:


> Well by that logic, all dogs are essentially mutts of wolves. Any given "pure breed" of dog is not a naturally occurring species. The wolf was hybridized, cross-bred and artificially selected to create all the breeds we know of today.
> 
> But because this happened before any of us were alive, we, as a society, recognize separate breeds as if they're different species. See where I'm going with this...?
> 
> Hybridization can and has created new species, not just mutts. This is quite common, especially in plants.


Dude (or dudet), relax. I was just putting it in beginner's terms.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Calivet said:


> While I agree with you in principle as far as the point you're trying to make, you might want to look up what labradoodles are sold for before making this argument.
> 
> In terms of dogs, just because many breeders make irresponsible decisions by inbreeding for looks and/or actually detrimental physical characteristics, that doesn't make doing so a good idea.


Its just a statement to put it layman's terms to be helpful. It need not be 100% true if it gets the point across. This isn't a scientific hypothesis. Plus I don't know much about labradoodles except that they probably account for 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the mutts in the world. 



Calivet said:


> Or, in rather more basic terms, I am sure that at least once in your life your mother asked you if everyone else jumped off a bridge - would you jump too.


Please don't talk about my mother. That is completely unnecessary.


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

oldlady25715 said:


> Its just a statement to put it layman's terms to be helpful. It need not be 100% true if it gets the point across. This isn't a scientific hypothesis. Plus I don't know much about labradoodles except that they probably account for 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of the mutts in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't talk about my mother. That is completely unnecessary. And the statement doesn't even make sense.


Relax, I'm on your side. 

The question regarding the mother was pointed at the other guy, and is supposed to mean that just because every other hobby is doing it that doesn't make it a good idea. 

As far as labradoodles (and goldidoodles, and puggles, and all the rest of the designer mutts, which actually make up a fairly sizable number of dogs sold these days), they typically sell for 1-2.5K. And they're absolutely mutts.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

No worries Calivet


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

zh33887799 said:


> hope u can answer my question thank u


Is there any reason in particular you chose this topic for your first post a week ago and haven`t checked back?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I also wondered this. Here it says "throw the stone and hide the hand" (I do not know if you say so yourself). 
I have seen this thread as yet another provocation about this topic, hence my rude response. But as I pointed out in my first post, I spoke "in a personal capacity". 
There's rudeness and miseducation: I was rude, but I think it is also miseducate to do so, that is to start a thread like this - that is always a "hot thread" about a "hot topic"- and not to take part in it. 
Maybe our new friend comes from some other hobby where hybrids are allowed (I think of ball pythons) and he would have been able to express a point of view different from mine. 
Finally, it seems to me that we are fighting among ourselves for the tone we used, without discussing the substance (hybridization why NOT?) - and again I'm afraid of not having expressed my thoughts well enough, although I hope that it has been understood what I mean (otherwise I will write it in Italian). 
Greetings


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I might be wrong (it wouldn`t be the first time) but if someone`s first post is on this topic and then they vanish I would think it was to start some trouble.

We had someone here awhile ago start 3 threads on creating hybrid frogs, crickets and fruit flies.
I called him out on it and got crucified. Whatever happened to him?

My point being as was mentioned earlier supply a link, keep it civil and move on.
If it`s a legit question they`ll be back, if not no war was started and they lose.

To the OP if I`m wrong I apologize


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