# Morphs



## Maurwyck (Jan 13, 2008)

I need some clarification on morphs. I would like to get a couple of frogs to put in my 55gal tank that I am starting. (after my tank is cycled and I'm ready to add frogs) How do I know what I can put together if I get them at a separate time or from diffferent breeders. I have seen and heard all the don't put different morphs together, which I thought to mean species, but then when looking at certain species I have seen that there are different morphs in the species. How do I know what I can put together if I don't buy them all together? If there is a compatability chart between species or morphs within a species where can I find it. I'm having a hard time understanding what is ment by morph.


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

I bet someone will have a better answer but from what I understand a morph is a "specie" within a spiecie like u said.

So for an example:

Dendrobates. Tinctorius has some morphs like:
- Patricia
- Cobalt
- Regina

etc.

The morphs come from the different places the frogs are found. They are all the same species, but they all have different locations and colors.

I think you can't add different morphs, because you will have crossbreeding wich is NOT a good thing. You will get other non-natural morphs and in the end we don't know when a morgph is actual a natural morph or cross breed.


Like I said someone will give you a netter answer but I think the basics are clear now!

GL

Dennis


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

I'll do my best here but i am sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in and correct any mistakes i make.

Basically "morphs" refer to specific location data. I.E. where the wild population of the frog is located. In the hobby we don't mix these local specific frogs to preserve said "morph" and have frogs that represent wild populations. 

Example: If you have Cauchero morph pumilio and you mix this frog with a Bastimentos pumilio these frogs breed and now these froglets are something entirely new and you no longer have frogs representitive of a wild population.

This is exactly what the hobby is trying to avoid from a conservation standpoint.

Please correct me if i am off on this (HA we were posting at the same time.)


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

True but what about the "gold" and "green" colors of imitator which live side by side and interbreed. They are the same locale. And I guess the same morph?
Species, locale, morph and color phase

Morph refers to a locale of a type of frog? Golddust, red, blue and yellow or orange bastis can be housed together and interbred. These are just different color phases of the basti morph or locale I believe.
Or would each color in the population be a different morph.


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

You have got a point there! But are these colors considered as different morphs? It is the same with Lamasi, when u have the standard, Green-legged, red and panguana. 

Maybe some expert can give a correct answer here.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Not the same as those morphs u listed are from different populations, I think.


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## DenZ0r (Oct 19, 2007)

Well the lamasi I have will have offspring that have different colors from yellow to orange/red. But I think in any case he should be carefull with combining species/morphs


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> True but what about the "gold" and "green" colors of imitator which live side by side and interbreed. They are the same locale. And I guess the same morph?
> Species, locale, morph and color phase


Hi Aaron,

I think this falls under normal genetic variability within a population, like your example of Western Bastimentos pumilio, just far less conspicuous when compared to the huge color variability in basimentos. As 'nominant' imitators, these are classified as being the same morph AFAIK- where Tarapoto would be a separate and distinctive morph.


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## Maurwyck (Jan 13, 2008)

> I think this falls under normal genetic variability within a population, like your example of Western Bastimentos pumilio, just far less conspicuous when compared to the huge color variability in basimentos. As 'nominant' imitators, these are classified as being the same morph AFAIK- where Tarapoto would be a separate and distinctive morph.


When I read and reread the carsheets all I'm finding different in the discriptions of morphs is the color markings. I went to the imitators caresheet specifically (since it was used in the example thinking I would better understand) I can't figure out the difference in morphs other than color markings.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> When I read and reread the carsheets all I'm finding different in the discriptions of morphs is the color markings. I went to the imitators caresheet specifically (since it was used in the example thinking I would better understand) I can't figure out the difference in morphs other than color markings.


Imitators may not be the best example, as the morphs are quite similar to one another and a discerning eye is needed to really tell the difference. The tinctorius morphs are much easier to use as an example, because the coloration is unique and distinctive. And because morphs are from the same species, they shouldn't be mixed because of the possibility of hybridization, making the challenge of actually identifying morphs a Herculean task. And as I suspect your inquiry is about mixing species in the same tank, the short answer is 'don't'. 

Morphs represent subpopulations of the same species, with unique site locations within the range of tinctorius. As they are the same species, interbreeding is a reality if they are kept in the same enclosure and the hobby wants to preserve representations of the wild populations. Hope that helps.


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## Maurwyck (Jan 13, 2008)

flyangler18 said:


> > Morphs represent subpopulations of the same species, with unique site locations within the range of tinctorius. As they are the same species, interbreeding is a reality if they are kept in the same enclosure and the hobby wants to preserve representations of the wild populations. Hope that helps.


So it's not a matter of compatibility between morphs? It's more a matter of not cross breeding. I don't want to breed them I just want to put multiple frog together that will get along. I'm way to new to even consider the breeding aspect of this hobby.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I don't want to breed them I just want to put multiple frog together that will get along. I'm way to new to even consider the breeding aspect of this hobby.


If you want multiple frogs that 'get along' in the same tank, I'd suggest you stick with frogs that do well in groups- leucomelas, terribilis, galactonus, etc. These are all the same species and don't have the aggression problem normally experienced with tinctorius females.

Do a search here on the forum on 'mixing' and you will see why it is not a good idea:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14178


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## Maurwyck (Jan 13, 2008)

> If you want multiple frogs that 'get along' in the same tank, I'd suggest you stick with frogs that do well in groups- leucomelas, terribilis, galactonus, etc. These are all the same species and don't have the aggression problem normally experienced with tinctorius females.
> 
> Do a search here on the forum on 'mixing' and you will see why it is not a good idea


Will do! Just trying to understand so I don't do it accidentally. Don't know why I'm having such a hard time understanding morphs. Thank you for the link.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

If you want to be ensured that you are getting properly labeled morphs when you are acquiring new animals, know your breeder! I'd stick with sponsors on this board or local froggers who can give you some advise.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

For an in depth discussion about morphs, you might want to read this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20874

Basically, a "morph" can be any two groups of frogs that differ in appearance. And those groupings may, or may not, be related to genetics or wild distributions. Which is why it is a horrible classification system.


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## Maurwyck (Jan 13, 2008)

So how many males could I safely keep in a 55g vivarium? I figure this would be the easiest way to avoid interbreeding and if I get the same species the morph wouldn't be an issue. Right?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Depends on the frog you're talking about... most of the frogs that do well in groups (e. anthonyi, D. leucomelas, D. galac, D. auratus, D. truncatus, C. azureventris, etc) tend to do well in groups with close to equal sex ratio to a bit heavy on the male side. Now for say... D. tincs or pumilio, you may end up only being able to have 1... it depends on how many girls are involved.

Other problems with mixing morphs... PDFs show a variety of interspecies and intraspecies behavior that vary by species (and sometimes even population!) and you'd really have to know your animals to know what the issue might be... different morphs can vary greatly in physical size compared to each other, and behaviors... some populations are better in groups than others... then you have to take into account if the frogs will even recognize the other animals as being the same species (what happens with a tank full of males where some males think other males are competaters, then others are ignored? uneven bullying is bad!!).

Yes, interbreeding is an issue, but there are also so many behavioral aspects, that keeping it to the same morph makes life a lot easier because usually its relatively well known how animals of a specific morph will interact with each other. If you're looking for variety, I'd try and get one of the morphs that show a broad variety of coloration like some of the turquoise auratus (which range from green to blue and with a background of black to bronze), or bastimentos pumilio (the different "colors" are sometimes thought to be morphs but they aren't... so just get a white one, a red one, a yellow one, etc).

There is a lot of confusion with morphs since we don't know where the majority of them came from geographically... and it doesn't help that in the species that have a broad range and lots of morphs the same color, pattern, and body size can actually be repeated thru the population with animals that are very far apart geographically... like the random read head that pops up in the family tree because of that one irishman way back when :lol:


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Morphs are color forms of a variable species, with or without locality data. Populations are designated with locality data. The two are used interchangeably here and that results in the confusion. And to add more confusion some people are keeping track of importations assuming they represent a population, but I don't think that's a valid assumption after hearing what the importers do. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Maurwyck (Jan 13, 2008)

> most of the frogs that do well in groups (e. anthonyi, D. leucomelas, D. galac, D. auratus, D. truncatus, C. azureventris, etc) tend to do well in groups with close to equal sex ratio to a bit heavy on the male side


I think that I have decided on D.Fantasticus. Do these do well in groups. I went with this species because there is a wide variety of colors and they take care of their young. I wanted to have a species that takes care of their own young because what I'm getting it that in the groups there will have to be atleast one female and not knowing anything about them I don't want to try raising eggs as well. I would like to limit the amount of frogs that give their lives for my "right of passage" into this hobby. (I'm not planning on killing any frogs and will do what I can but with lack of knowledge/exerience it is possible)

The Pumilio is listed as advanced to experienced and has **


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## Greg (Dec 25, 2007)

From what I understand a morph can best be described as a subspecies or variety of the species you have. Sort of like what a variety is in dogs, a poodle and a german shepard are both the same species of animal but they would be different varieties of that species.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Greg, I'm not particularly fond of the dog analogy because you're talking about man made differences... 

A population (which may be called a morph in captivity due to lack of more specific information) is kinda like the level below subspecies... there are even less clear differences between populations as there are subspecies. You can have a variety of populations that make up a subspecies, and a variety of subspecies that make up a species. Depending on the range needed for the animals involved, you may or may not see significant differences in the populations... these frogs need a rather limited amount of space compared to say... birds or wolves... which is likely why you see such a greater amount of variation in the PDF populations than other animals.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> Morphs are color forms of a variable species, with or without locality data. Populations are designated with locality data. The two are used interchangeably here and that results in the confusion. And to add more confusion some people are keeping track of importations assuming they represent a population, but I don't think that's a valid assumption after hearing what the importers do.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


And to add to the confusion, we tend to assume that frogs collected from two different locations are from different genetic populations. When, in fact, they could actually be from different locations within the range of a single population. I wrote an article for the BDG several years ago on the subject if anyone is interested:
http://www.thebdg.org/library/anecdotal ... netics.htm


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

bbrock said:


> chuckpowell said:
> 
> 
> > Morphs are color forms of a variable species, with or without locality data. Populations are designated with locality data. The two are used interchangeably here and that results in the confusion. And to add more confusion some people are keeping track of importations assuming they represent a population, but I don't think that's a valid assumption after hearing what the importers do.
> ...


Thanks Brent . Very well explained and informative article.

Rich


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