# ant farms?



## HepCatMoe (May 3, 2008)

does anybody keep em to use as feeders? would it work?

i hear the pd's love ants, so it seems like an easy way to add variety to there diet... i am missing something?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Have you seen the size of the ants that are kept in the ant farms? Those are made for large harvester ants which would cause problems for most dart frogs. 
If you are interested in trying to collect and rear ants there is some really good information in Journey to the Ant. 

Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I think a Harvester Ant sting would kill any PDF, they are substantially more painful than any bee or wasp sting I've ever had, and leave massive red welts. Not to mention in an ant farm, there is no queen, and thus no new ants.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

In theory... _you'd need to find species that the frogs you're feeding them to would take on a regular basis_, find a queen, and set up a colony of them where you could harvest workers. Sounds great!

But... the ants I've seen kept in captivity are usually larger, more aggressive species (easy to see) rather than the ants that our frogs tend to like. If you could find a species the frogs like and set up a colony, that would be a great experiment to try. I wouldn't try with just any old ant tho...


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

im lucky to live in florida, most months out of the year i can go in the woods and crack open rotting logs looking for the tiny black ants that are all over the place out here. my frogs love them and this past time i went out something interesting happened. workers were trying to relocate larvae and when i collected them they held on to them right up until my frogs ate them. two for one deal! i wonder if that added much nutritional value as my understandind is that ants are mostly chitin and not all that nutritious. i use them as a supplemental feeder and they are relished. im still trying to find some termites around here. i have been unsuccessful with that so far.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wouldn't exactly toss ants out as a bad food just because they are high in chitin... that's a bit of a herping wives tail that high chitin is always bad. High chitin is bad for herps that don't eat high chitin diets in the wild... but PDFs seem to deal with high chitin diets so it's not exactly a bad thing. If they were not all that nutritious, I wonder why so many specialize in eating them!


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

my frogs do seem to love them and thats enough for me! 8)


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

I'm actually giving a crack at an ant farm. I have a Lasius Niger queen and some workers in a farm. Problem is they have yet to leave the test tube and use their home and i would assume should have been laying eggs already but she has not. I don't know if it's a protein or sugar issue as she is getting both along with a healthy supply of water.

For the setup, I basically used an old 2.5 gal tank and set up another thick plexi box inside of that. So instead of a 2d ant form, it's more of a panoramic and filled it with fine sand around the outer border and 1/4" plastic tube tunnels which lead in and out of the colony in the middle. All of this is then placed in a big plastic tub filled with water to prevent any escape.

Anyone know of a way to maybe catch a queen in the wild? I believe it is best to catch them before they lose their wings but ants are not my expertise. My current queen may just be defective.


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## syble (Mar 20, 2007)

i was wondering about ants awell. we have lots of ants around and I was thinking those little black ones would work well, particularlly if I could collect a coloney. will have to do some research as to how to do it though. In theory they could be as easy as pinheads to feed.
Thanks
Sib


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

just be careful with ants. i would feed very few at a time to make sure the frogs pick off any of them that does go in. ants by nature are aggressive. some were left in the tank (maybe 2 or 3) and they started biting. it came to a point where you could literally see the frogs avoid them, even when trying to feed so you know it wasnt hunger that was driving them back.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I had a colony of ants setup base in one of my Escudo tanks before I went away this weekend. I saw some running around in there for a day or 2 and tried to kill them here and there. Noticed the escudos looked good but they were spending a lot of time up around the rim, not were they usually slept. They seemed active during the day in the leaf litter and such and the male looked pretty healthy, he was always a little skinny for my liking. As I went to spray the tank w/ water and kill any ants on the wall I noticed the cork bark in the viv come alive. It was completely covered in sugar ants? the little brownish red ones that move quick. I wrestled the cork piece out since it was attached to the substrate w/ plant roots. When I finally got it out and made it to the door w/ it my arm was completely covered in ants. Not one of them ever bit me and they didn`t seem to do anything to the Escudos. I think they may have been picking them off here and there. I was quite surprised but it got me thinking. While not worthwhile for a pair of escudos since they eat so little, what about groups of juvis that pick off everything in sight. Anyone know if sugar ants or whatever these things were, bite or need any protein in their diet? I threw the colony outside and they went right back to finding there way to the tank quickly. I set out some traps and they seem to have relocated or died. I know they weren`t around long enough to form a colony and they had eggs everywhere. They must`ve brought them in with them. Any ideas?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Having the ants get established in the tanks is not a good thing, unless you're trying for Ben Eiben's composting tank... otherwise it seems like the frogs enjoy the snack for a bit, then likely start to ignore them for the most part. 

Aaron, if they had eggs with them they were already an established colony and just relocating - Sugar ants are notorious for coming in windows, drains, and basements. Ants can relocate pretty fast when they need to. Unless you clean around the tank and destroy the "scent" trail they leave, they will just pick it up again and go right back to the same spot. I've be very, very careful about how you try and get rid of them if they are in a frog tank with frogs that could still eat them... the ones that work the best involve the ants bringing poison back to the queen (not really an option with live frogs in the tank). Pull the ants back out of the tank and keep them from getting back in (baby talc around the tank or base of the stands the tanks are one after washing them to get rid of the scent trail as well) is the best way to handle it. The reason you likely didn't feel stings or bites is because they were so tiny... thats not to say they can't do it, they just couldn't penetrate the human skin enough to cause any pain.

Unless the ants are fed or allowed to roam outside the tank as well (the frog tank is a base of operations, not their entire range) then I'd put your tank and frogs as suspect to having the ants take them over... if they can't find other "food", they will resort to whatever they can get. Ants will also aggressively attack intruders... as you probably noticed by the escudo change in sleep spots.

Ants are tricky to feed (it's been recomended to cool them down in the fridge so their aggressive reactions are slowed so the frogs will eat them) and you really have to make sure you have species the frogs will eat on a regular basis, then find a queen.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

maybe its because im feeding tincs and theres not an entire colony in my viv, but ants dont stand a chance in my tank! they get mowed down no problem. no cool down or intructions necessary :twisted: .(although they still get dusted before going in with the frogs which seems to confuse them a bit, the ants that is not the frogs 8) ). i dont collect more ants than they can eat in a sitting, which is still alot of ants. i do this about once a week now, just for some variety. 


on a side note why even bother trying to culture ants, unless you live in a cold place with a short season when you can collect them. i can understand making a hobby out of an ant farm, because they are definately fascinating but if im just feeding them to my frogs i can trek through the woods and find them whenever i want, without the need to manage a population.


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## syble (Mar 20, 2007)

i think collection could be very easy and sustainable right at the ant hill but it seams to me the only ant hills I find are big black ants that I doubt my frogs would appreciate. will have to keep an eye out i supposed.
Sib


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

i dont even look for ant hills anymore, i crack open rotting logs and find thousands of tiny black ants. besides i would feel bad destroying the entire colony for a few ants. much easier knocking off a chunk of rotting wood collecting what i need and letting the rest go about their business so i can come back later and hit them up again. not sure what species they are, but as long as they arent red (not that ive ever seen any red ants in the logs i find) they get dusted and thrown in with the frogs.


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

i culture them bc i live in an urban area where sludge, smog and used condoms are prevalent. every chance i get to some clean green, i scour the area for ants and termites and try to sustain them until i can make another trip out.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

like i said as a hobby the ant farm is probably really interesting, but to culture them as a feeder doesnt seem very efficient. how easy is it going to be to collect the ants from your setup to feed out, without wrecking your ant farm and possibly disturbing the queen. maybe a piece of fruit they can gather around that you could remove and toss in with the frogs. you wouldnt get too many ants at one time probably but it wouldnt be that invasive to the ants and would still provide some interesting variety for your frogs.


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

well my guys are sick of ants as it is. it's really something they're on an ant diet. 

my setup basically consists of a 2.5 gal instead of those flat ant farms. then there is another box created within that out of plexi. so it's more of a panoramic setup rather than a flat. the outer walls are then filled close to the top with fine sand. the middle is filled maybe half way with coco and have 1/4" tubes running from the center to the other walls where they form their tunnels. thats where they get fed to bring whatever back to the colony. to collect them, i simply leave an index card in the middle and add a drop of honey. it's a cool project, and a great safety backup, but i agree it's not a necessity.

termites, on the other hand, are a great thing to culture for the fact that my frogs never get sick of them.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

your ant farm does sound like a cool project, but im more interested in how you culture your termites! i have been looking for some but havent had any luck yet. when i find them i want to hold on to them if i can!


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## bLue_reverie (Mar 2, 2008)

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=14641

they seem to multiply slower than what people say but multiply at least
i'm trying to change up to another food source possibly


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## syble (Mar 20, 2007)

in your case the rotten logs are the ant hills hehe. I was thinking something more passive, like to put a trap near the hill to collect workers when going in and out. Just easier to gather more at once if you've got a central location.
Thanks
sib


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

> I was thinking something more passive, like to put a trap near the hill to collect workers when going in and out.




i tried that at first by putting some fiberglass screen over the top of a mason jar then rolling a rubber band over the top to hold the screen in place. inside the jar i would put a piece of fruit and snug it into the ground by an anthill. it worked ok for me but im still finding it easier to get rotten logs. plus it give me an excuse to go play in the woods! 


blue reverie thats an awesome link, i had no idea it would be that simple. i thought i would need a big rubbermaid trashcan or something like that. thanks!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's that simple to keep termites alive, but termite production is limited in captivity, and unless you do them large scale you won't get enough production to do a mild harvest a couple times a year. I have a feeling the colony size is limited to the area they use, and we highly limit that area when we try to culture them. I don't think people realize the true size of the termite colonies we tend to harvest from... seems to me we'd get more termites harvesting off workers of a large well established wild colony than we would a tiny little colony we raise outselves... and we can hold those workers in the same sized containers as we tried to do the colony in. Remember... what you're harvesting tends to just be the "tip of the iceburg" of the colony, the majority being (sometimes many feet) underground.

There have been termite traps described on here before... 2-6in PVC piping with a cap on one end, filled with cardboard (the corregated stuff like boxes being best) that is almost completely buried (open end pointing down into the ground) within a couple of feet of an active termite colony. The nice soft pulp can be very attractive... if the cap is easily removed you can check it, and even harvest it (pull out old cardboard full of workers, replace with new) without removing the pipe from the ground.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Interesting, i just noticed that i been getting ants at my office, and now they are starting to get into my regina's tank and they seem to pick them off when ever they see them, not sure what kind of ants they are, but they feed on teh fruit flies as i see them carrying them out of the vivarium. But the frogs seem to love them.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes but you're not going to want them to move it. I'd recomend stopping the ants before they really start hitting the tank up for food... you really don't want them in an office anyways.


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