# I'm making the leap



## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

First, Let me introduce myself.

My names Jimmy and I have been a fanatic of pretty much any reptile, amphibian, or mammal since I was about 12.

About a year ago I started doing research on dart frogs, what brought me to frogs was that I wanted to have a man cave with my own little reptile twist to it, and i managed to youtube dart frogs.

After seeing them in natural vivs I was immedietly hooked, there bright colors and beautiful calls glued me to the screen and since then all ive been thinking of is starting a dart frog collection.

Finally I have room in my home that I can dedicate to "the frog room", I've made plans to start with a rack that I can find at Lowes or Home Depot pretty cheap under $75 that I can easily put (2) (18x18x18) exo terra tanks per shelve.

I have purchased 2 exo terra's and they are under the process of being built now, I will be adding some broms, air plants and ficus, along with a false bottom, and coco background.

My main plan is to eventually have enough to open a little store here where I'm from, because right now you cant find ANY locally here, you have to drive over 200 miles to find them.

I'm not in this for the money, but lets face it any extra income, wether its $50 or $1000 a month off a hobby I truly love is FINE BY ME!

Obviously this is years down the road, and thats IF i do decide to do that, but generally I'm in it just to have a cool hobby with great rewards in it.

I'm going to be purchasing 4-6 leucs, I originally wanted to purchase 4 leucs, and 4 azures, but Ive decided for the sake to make things easier, I'd rather successfully breed 1 species, then use the $ I make off of them, to throw back into the hobby and purchase another species and so on and so forth.

I read that rule of thumb is 1 frog per 5 gallons of space, the 18x18x18 measures to 29 gallons, I know leucs are more terrestrial then they are climbers, but still climb. so I figure 4 shouldn't be too much for 1 tank, atleast untill I can distinguish males from females.

Then once I know which are the males and females obviously seperate them as pairs.

I can have 6 pairs per rack, and can fit atleast 3 racks right now in my room. so thats 18 pairs, I wanted to use atleast 1 or 2 tiers of 10g tanks for grow out tanks and the rest display/breeding tanks.

The tanks wont be ready for sometime as I still have alot of work to do and want to make sure everything is up and running, along with seeding the tanks with isopods ect.

I will be adding photos to this thread with my build, as well as video.

If there are any tips anyone wants to give me, I am all ears.

Thanks for reading and please stay tuned!!


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Quite the first post...


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

I've been reading this forum for a couple of months now, just not decided to make an account since I will be starting my frog collection


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

mimic711 said:


> My main plan is to eventually have enough to open a little store here where I'm from, because right now you cant find ANY locally here, you have to drive over 200 miles to find them.


You might be surprised how many people in your area keep pdf's.
There may not be any in pet stores, but chances are there is someone local who can help you get started.
Please fill out your profile, it's always nice to know who is in your area; for meetups, or in case you get into a fruit fly bind.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Thats exactly my motivation, for instance, ball pythons are not to be kept here legally, almost all my friends have atleast 2 lol. Imagine if they were legal? everyone would have 1 and thats what I want to bring, my motto is its better for parents to get there children into reptiles early, and it will shape them to appreciate life in general.

I feel really bad for people who dont share the reptile hobby life, they really are missing out.

I will fill out my profile right now, thank you for the heads up!!


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok, so I scoped out Lowes last night and did a final rundown of everything I am going to need to start setting up my vivs, I'll have pics by sunday, I think saturday I am going to go get the rack and lights and put that together, then late Saturday start doing my tanks, do you think I should use that plastic egg crates siliconed to the back of the glass, or just use great stuff on the glass, I used it before with no ill effects but the glass was clean so that was probably the reason.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi and welcome! 

I wouldn't follow that '5 gallon per' rule too strictly. IMO, they need more room than that. Also, the amount of adequate space will differ between types of darts. Some do well smooshed in with a group and others are territorial and need more space.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Yes I agree, which is exactly why I have planned ahead and in the process of building a total of 4 exo terras so i can separate them if and when I see aggression.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that I get atleast 2 pairs but in reality im ready to get either more males then females or females then males.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Anyone know where I can get lots, or good priced Drift Wood?

Thanks.


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## yellow dart frog man (Mar 8, 2011)

You can go to a local forest for wood and the best part its free!!  if you did that you would have to bake the wood or another good option is A place of life.Also Ne Herp has a good wood selection. Hope i could help and good luck with your future business.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Went to go purchase some egg crate today, going to start putting the false bottom in and by next week should be ready to start doing the back ground ill post pics soon


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Cut the Egg crate to size, I will be doing more work tonight when I get home along with posting some pics, I am only going to leave about 1-2 inches of space open under the false bottom to give me more head room for this large center piece of driftwood I am going to use as a center elevating tree trunk. 

I dont plan to do anything fancy with the first tank so the false bottom will just be flat all the way around, maybe on the next tank ill do something a little more different.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Still waiting for my Hydroton, Netpots, coco, and abg mix to come in but ill snap some photos of what i have ready as of today, nothing has been glued or siliconed.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Dont know if you can tell, but there is a notch on the corner of the top of the cage, should I cut that so that the glass that sits on top is flush? and how should I cut it with just a normal blade?

And I am still missing 1 egg crate for the back, I just need to purchase more.

Next update will have pics of it all done with netpots, false bottom, substrate, plants, lights and shelving unit.

Unless you guys want a more detailed photo journal i'll do that also.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok I am stuck on my next decision which is a big one.

I can either add an extremely small stream in the tank to help with humidity, which in the long run will require more maintienence due to the water pump.

I can run a humidifier to the tank to help with humidity, but then I'll have to keep the screen top which I am not really a fan of.

Or just do my original plan, to keep a glass top with a mist king set up.

I have been contemplating adding a small fan that will circulate the air inside my tank, but I thought I would counter act this as I plan to open my tanks at least once a day to feed, and that this should be good enough to supply the inside with fresh oxygen.

Although these Exo Terra tanks have slits in the front for air exchange I still think I should open it and air it out for a little, plus it gives me time to check soil PH and Soil Dry/Wetness with my meter.

I'm not really a fan of making things harder and adding a water feature will just add more work in the long run but I have some left over egg crate that I can make a stream out of and was wondering your guys thoughts.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

I vote go with the original thought of no stream and a mister.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I'd just get aa mistking. Less headaches for you. Ventilation is nice to have.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

MistKing with a glass top and a screen vent. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63781-screen-vent-construction-how.html

By the way, it's not too late. Don't let FLAT happen to someone you love!
Take a few pieces of your leftover eggcrate and stack them up. Throw them on top of your false bottom. Now when you put your screen mesh over it, it will form a hill. You don't have to shape them or anything. Just stack 3 odd pieces and you have yourself some terrain. Super simple and it will eliminate FTS..."Flat Tank Syndrome".


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> MistKing with a glass top and a screen vent. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63781-screen-vent-construction-how.html
> 
> By the way, it's not too late. Don't let FLAT happen to someone you love!
> Take a few pieces of your leftover eggcrate and stack them up. Throw them on top of your false bottom. Now when you put your screen mesh over it, it will form a hill. You don't have to shape them or anything. Just stack 3 odd pieces and you have yourself some terrain. Super simple and it will eliminate FTS..."Flat Tank Syndrome".


lol, thanks for the input.

I got some stuff in right now, going to start messing around with my set up, will add photos tonight.

STAY TUNED!


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

So I have been thinking about what you said about terrain, instead of giving the ground terrain im going to be adding a 2-3 multi levels in the tank which will connect either sides of the tank together, kinda like a log if you will connects one side to another, i think it will give the darts different vantage points to hunt, and keep things interesting without compromising ground space.

And although leucs arent really climbers by nature, I know ANY frog would love additional areas to explore, plus I hope this will help with aggression issues, so essentially there will be 2-3 different "ramps" if you will, ill take a photo of what I mean, and let me know what you guys think.

The ramps will be made of the egg crate, ill just GS over it, and silicone coco like my background and you wont be able to tell its egg crate it will not only match my background but will also look like part of the natural tanks aesthetics.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok this is what I meant, these peices havent but cut to size or are even how I want them but its hard to put them the way I want with 1 hand lol, but just to give you an idea of what I want to do.

let me know your thoughts


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

DENDROBOARD!!

& my 25 ordered 3' netpots.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sides have been siliconed, false bottom in with mesh, and net pots are being siliconed, next step is to GS it, then im going to sand it down to give it texture, then silicone and coco, that should be tomorrow, more pics to come.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)




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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sorry for low lighting, its dark in the dining room, going to do the silicone and coco right now, should have pics in an hour, only going to do 1 side tonight, then the rest tomorrow.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok im about 80% finished with the background, I siliconed and added some coco to the background and let that cure for 24hrs, ontop of that I siliconed and added some spagnum moss.

Do you think the moss will hold once it gets drenched in water from spraying? 

I had to add moss to cover up those little spots of the great stuff that was still showing, they are small spots not larger then half the size of a penny but its still an eye sore so I did what I could and added some moss to help cover it.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

How long should I wait for my tank to cure before I do its first wet test?

I know its different for every tank, but I just placed an order of ABG mix, fruit flies, petri dishes & almond leaves, should be here by the weekend.

Today I am going to purchase the rack system that I will be placing my tanks on along with my 4' t8 lights, i hope to have it set up by tonight as I dont think its that hard to set up.

I'd like to let my tank cycle a month or two before i put my frogs in because I want to seed my tank with springtails, I have yet to purchase those yet but I will soon.

So my question is, how long until I should wait to wet my tank?

I wanted to atleast plant it and put the substrate in no later then this weekend but if you guys think i should wait till the smell from the tank is gone COMPLETELY before planting and laying substrate I might as well do that then.

Please let me know your thoughts.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

you will want to wait a week for gs to cure. some people will wait longer but most usually wait a week. also, I would have stuck branches of wood into the background just so it's a bit more interesting. looking good so far.

EDIT: Also, not sure what you mean by "wet my tank" all you need to do is make sure your substrate is fairly moist and put it in. Another thing is you will want to smear the gs with silicone and apply coco fibers or peat to it to make it more natural. You will also need leaf litter such as oak and magnolia leaves. And yes, you definitely want to wait until the smell is gone from the tank to add any substrate or plants. You also only want to get one pair per tank depending on which frogs you get. If you're planning on D. tinctorius then definitely a pair, there are many recorded instances of same sex aggression which can be fatal. If you're thinking Auratus then a group of three or four, Leucomelas are the same. If you're planning on thumbnails, you will absolutely need a lot more studying and reading.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Sounds like you're on the right path. Silicone can take a while to cure. Put it in an area with lots of airflow and don't use it until it's completely dry and you can't smell any more fumes coming off it. That was a couple days time for me, though I didn't put it on very thick. Hopefully you'll be fine by the weekend, but don't push it or you'll be sorry in the long run!

Great stuff should be totally dry and carvable within a day (probably much quicker), unless you piled it super thick.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

my gs took a bit more time but it's different for everyone.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok, yes I already did the coco - I just havent updated any pics, I will try tonight, as far as branches ect, I purchased 1 peice of manzita wood it looks like a tree truck, it will go in the middle of the tank and I will put 2 coco huts, 1 in front and 1 in the back, i put the peice of wood in the middle to help act like a territory seperater, once the broms in my tank start to make new pups ill take those pups and mount them on the wood.

Its been 3 days since I did the GS and silicone, and 2 days since I put the coco on, as far as little spots i didnt catch should i just do a touch up with a dab of silicone and some coco fiber? I dont want there to be any yellow showing through, this is why ive added accent moss to the background as well.

thanks.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

yeah, you can touch up as much as you want. does the GS seem cured yet?


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Oh externally, yes the GS is hard as a rock, I already shaped what I could and did some COCO, i'll take some photos in a little of the touch ups.

thanks for the response.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

great. get us some pictures soon! what are the planned inhabitants btw?


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

I will get pics within 1-2hrs, I have 2 exo terra 18x18x18's, and I am going to purchase 6 unsexed leucs, in hopes to get atleast 2 pairs, i will split them up into 3's per tank once they establish in the tank im workin on now, the 2nd take wont be a 3 background tank, only 1, and ill implement wood in the background to help with mounting instead of netpots.

thanks.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sorry for the extremely low lighted photo, as soon as I get my T8 light installed i'll take some really clear photos, don't mind the showing egg crate, it will be covered with a raised part of substrate to add some terrain to the floor so you wont see it.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Well I did a smell test, and when you get about a foot away from the background you can smell that nasty silicone mustard smell pretty badly, I am going to let it dry for another week then wet it and let it dry, hopefully doing this a couple of times it will make the smell disapate.

On another note - My FF cultures should get here today they are 2hrs away from where I live and estimated time for arrival is today sometime, seeing as I am not going to have any frogs to feed for sometime, should I still make cultures every 1-2 weeks to ensure that by the time I have my frogs I will have cultures, or should I just let them continue breeding without doing another cultures, I ordered 2 cultures, 3.5lbs of media, and 25 cups w/ lids.

let me know your thoughts.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Open up the tank in put it in a windy area, or point a fan at it. That should help move things along.

I would definitely recommend making a culture every week. It takes a couple weeks for a culture to start producing, and they can mysteriously crash at any time. It's better to be safe and have extra food than be sorry about starving your frogs. This'll also give you practice at making cultures. It's not rocket science, but I've been doing it for over a year and still haven't gotten it perfected.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

yellow dart frog man said:


> You can go to a local forest for wood and the best part its free!!  if you did that you would have to bake the wood ...


Do not bother baking the wood. It will not accomplish killing anything deep inside the wood, specially if it is of big diameter. Unless you have an autoclave, your best option is to scrub it VERY WELL with a stiff brush and water. Let it dry THOROUGHLY before placing in your tank.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok thank you for the comments, I will place a fan on it tonight when I get off work. 

On a good note, we have a festival going on here where I work outside, so the office is closing at 3 today instead of 5 yay, so hopefully when I get home I'll have my package there.

I'm tempted to put the tank outside but I dont want random bugs or anything landing on the background, anyone have any suggestions about putting it outside?


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Order from Joshs frogs came in about an hour ago.

Pretty pleased with it, man the ABG mix they give you really isnt that much, well atleast it doesnt look like it is in the bag, anyone know what the compenents of there ABG mix is?

I might try to make my own next time but it looks like its really good stuff.

There are still spots in my tank that the GS shows through but its hard to cover them all because they are all small spots I have to do them all individually, so I am going to dedicate the next 1-2hrs to doing it slowly because I dont want any issues once its all set up.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Just a quick update - couldn't put my tank outside due to some thunderstorms, but when it stops I'm going to put it outside for 2 weeks and hopefully by then the smell would have subsided.

Also do you recommend I boil and bake my magnolia leaves I received from joshs frogs or do they come pre-sterilized?


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Update - Have not had a chance to put the tank outside due to rainy weather, but I will as soon as it clears up.

Its been 5 days since I set up my new cultures, I noticed small little grubs forming on the sides of the container, and on the medium, I showed my wife and she was like 'Gross', surprised she let me keep that stuff in the house she hates stuff like that lol.

Anyways, I have seen black/brown little mites on the side of the cultures not alot of them maybe 1 here an 1 there but they are defiantly there, I am guessing these are grain mites?

Also the 2 cultures that I received from joshs frogs on the 3rd, they are atleast 2-3 weeks old so when my new cultures turn 2 weeks old should I throw those out? I'd hate to waste them, should I make new cultures from them, or make the new cultures from the NEWER cultures that I made, 2-3 weeks in?

Let me know.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mimic711 said:


> ... the ABG mix they give you really isnt that much, well atleast it doesnt look like it is in the bag, anyone know what the compenents of there ABG mix is?


Ingredients and more are here. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63915-truth-about-abg-mix.html



mimic711 said:


> I might try to make my own next time but it looks like its really good stuff.


The numbers have been run by many. You can't make it yourself for less money than Josh's charges, well, for small batches anyway. Now if you are setting up 20 vivs, you can buy the components in bulk, and get the price down some. 



mimic711 said:


> Update - Have not had a chance to put the tank outside due to rainy weather, but I will as soon as it clears up.
> 
> Its been 5 days since I set up my new cultures, I noticed small little grubs forming on the sides of the container, and on the medium, I showed my wife and she was like 'Gross', surprised she let me keep that stuff in the house she hates stuff like that lol.
> 
> Anyways, I have seen black/brown little mites on the side of the cultures not alot of them maybe 1 here an 1 there but they are defiantly there, I am guessing these are grain mites?


Are you seeing the black "mites" above the surface of the media, or down in the media? If they are in the media, you are actually seeing part of the head of the maggots.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Are you seeing the black "mites" above the surface of the media, or down in the media? If they are in the media, you are actually seeing part of the head of the maggots.

They are in the media, but I could not see any body, just 1 black/brown dot, and its in the media on the side of the container.

I mean I am not freakin out or anything just wanted to see what you all thought, I read that mites are in any grain product so its probably that, as long as I dont have thousands killing all my flies I guess I am ok.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mimic711 said:


> Are you seeing the black "mites" above the surface of the media, or down in the media? If they are in the media, you are actually seeing part of the head of the maggots.
> 
> They are in the media, but I could not see any body, just 1 black/brown dot, and its in the media on the side of the container.
> 
> I mean I am not freakin out or anything just wanted to see what you all thought, I read that mites are in any grain product so its probably that, as long as I dont have thousands killing all my flies I guess I am ok.


Those are not mites. They are the head and mouth parts of the fruit fly larvae. If a mite was below the surface of the wet media, it would quickly smother and die.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Those are not mites. They are the head and mouth parts of the fruit fly larvae. If a mite was below the surface of the wet media, it would quickly smother and die.


Cool!

Thanks for the heads up, all you guys are very knowledgeable, I appreciate your prompt response.

I will more then likely be purchasing a couple 4oz containers of spring tails, so I can have a nice colony growing by the time I purchase my frogs which will be around Christmas.

I will be seeding the tank with them, as well as keeping them in separate containers so I can add them to the vivarium from time to time. I want to make sure my frogs have plenty of food to grub on.

I also read, to add fruit flies and a banana to a feeding station in the vivarium and that they lay the larvae on the banana and the frogs eat the larvae, is this a good idea you guys think?


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Saturday update:

Made another culture today from culture #1.

1 of my (2) previously made cultures has exploded overnight, the other I am sure will be the same tomorrow, I can see hundreds of worms on the corner side of the medium crawling everywhere, is it wierd that I am fascinated by this? LOL.

Anyways, tanks smell is dissapating slowly even though I havent had a chance to put it outside, I'm going to try to put it outside tomorrow for a week so it can cure properly.

If all goes well, by the end of this month I should have it planted, and I'll take photos of the tank for you guys.

I'll keep you all posted.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ok put the tank outside, did a little bit more touching up since I had daylight to show where I needed more coco on the background, going to let it cure for two weeks outside, then doing a smell test, if all smells good I'm going to add plants, add substrate and put some light on it.


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