# Cobalt not eating??!?? Getting Serious!! :(



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

SO: 

I was told that my cobalts looked a little on the skinny side about 3 weeks ago, both were eating fine, so I upped the amount of ff I gave per feeding. Still dusting my ff 1/3 feedings.

They still seemed fine, and after two weeks my female looked plump. Very healthy and very active.

About 6 days ago, my male stopped eating (up until this point he was eating fine, and appeared just as healthy as the female). Very weird, usually very active eaters. After two days of him not eating, he began to show very little activity. So I searched the forums and found that this was not too uncommon, upon reading some past threads I decided to move the male into a 2 1/2 gal tank that has a false bottom, swimming area with pebbles, and the land area lined with paper towels and a coco-hut. Provided food, still did not eat. The first day he was in there I was provided with a very small fecal mater, which I took to my vet to be tested. Came back yesterday clean. 

I've provided a variety of different food items from pinheads, ff, and small wax worms, and he has not eaten nor "pooped" for 5 days. He looks really skinny! Like oh my god please eat! lol 
 

SO if he ate something he shouldn't have, or has ingestion problems? or there is some advice that I've overlooked in these forums please let me know!!!!!


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

did you try another food source, like termites, or waxworms to get them to gain weight?

he obviosly not impacted as he is skinny so other than that is really hard to say.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

To gain weight, I just upped the amount of fruit flies, since he stopped eatin Yes, tried termites, wax worms and pin head crickets, he did not eat any of them?


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

One of my male tincs stopped eating and lost a lot of weight. He was the "loser" when my female chose a mate; the other male bullied him a lot.

He has been anorexic for several months, however I have gotten him to eat again. 

The problem was: the wingless fruit flies just aren't that active as the gliders. And, he was malnourished. After a few controlled feedings with calcium, he has perked back up.

Are you sure the pair was getting along at the time? When frogs want to breed, they can get nasty towards each other. Somebody once said they had a male tinc get killed by a female, because she loved him "to death."

The other possibility it is something like coccidia that doesn't always show up in a fecal, or it could be a bacterial infection.
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=15


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

They seem to get along fine. What do you mean by controlled feedings with calcium? And I feed them both types of ff, wingless and flightless... if that helps any? Should I try the petilite soak??


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

oddly, i noticed my male was more willing to eat in the evening. I made sure to feed him dusted food at that time.

I monitored how much he was eating. I was misusing the term "controlled feeding."

If all else fails, try the pedialyte soak. In the future, I'd purchase dextrose solution from Dr. Frye.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Well, I am going to wait and see how he is doing in the morning... if he's not eating then, then I'll the the soak.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

well, still not too much activity... We'll see how he does in the morning.


----------



## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

Sounds like parasites to me. Get some fecals done ASAP. In the meantime, pull him out to a temporary container (a plastic shoebox or similar), in case it is a competition problem.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

littlefrog said:


> Sounds like parasites to me. Get some fecals done ASAP. In the meantime, pull him out to a temporary container (a plastic shoebox or similar), in case it is a competition problem.


Had a fecal done, came back clean... I did pull him out, he's in a 2.5g I set up for him.... Still not eating this morning?


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

did you try the sugar method?


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Julio said:


> did you try the sugar method?


no. what is the sugar method?


----------



## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

ok so the fecal came bag negative. Thats good news. I'm not sure why but I've had a couple frogs at one point stop eating. I don't know why, or what caused it. I do know that I seperated the frog from its tank mate into a 2.5 gallon tank much like you did. I ended up feeding it springtails and FF larvae to "nurse" it back to health. It refused everything but those two items. I didn't use any medication on her or anything. Just springs and ff larvae in a dish for her. Perhaps its worth a try to see if it works for him too? After about 2 months of this kind of treatment she went back to eating flies again and is now breeding successfully. Best of luck to you!

Tony


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Wont eat springtails, but I will try the larva... worth a try


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

the sugar method is to soak the frog in some sugar water, it has worked for me in the past when i have had sick frogs and they would get better and have better health.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I may try that... I just got some Pedialyte, and am preparing to do a soak. Should it be mixed down with water?? also would you recommend the sugar water vs. Pedialyte?

also has anybody used Fluker's Repta Aid?


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Well I did the Pedialyte soak. Was a 50-50 solution, and kept him in there for 4-5minutes. Seemed a little more active while in there (must not like baths) but once back in his 2.5g back to same very little activity self.

What have you guys done in terms of soak time?
Should I consider using the Flukers Repta-Aid, and hand feed him?


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i usually do soaks of ten minutes when i have done it. What temp are you keeping the hospital tank at? also is it fully covered?


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Hospital tank is around 80 F, humidity 90%, and is fully covered with a glass lid. I put a small air tube in to make sure he is getting fresh air, but it is turned down pretty low so it doesn't freak him out.


----------



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

are all the sides covered? do you have any lighting ove rthe tank?


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

3 sides are covered, and yeah, has a light.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

well just finished my daily tank cleaning for him. Should I start hand feeding him? and if so, should I try the flukers formula by syringe or just ffs?


----------



## cobaltsinoh (Mar 13, 2006)

he refuses springtails and ff larvae?


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

yeah, he refuses to eat anything on his own... thus why i'm debating hand feeding.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some comments on Pedialyte from the thread http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... e&start=30

snip "When using items like pedialyte to help with the frogs, an important point to remember is that the supplement lacks, protiens, fats, and vitamins. It also lacks calcium (see analysis on http://rpdcon40.ross.com/pn/Pe...enDocument 

It also has an osmolality of 270 mOsm/kg while an isotonic amphibian ringer's solution has a osmolality of 229 mOsm/kg. This could cause further stress on the amphibian as it now has to expend energy maintaining its osmotic equilibrium. This may be a problem with frogs that have lost significant amounts of weight. 

When looking at the standard (resting) metabolic requirements (SMR) of frog at 25 C (assume a three gram frog as this is an intermediate sized frog between thumbnails and larger dart frogs) then the metabolic needs of the frog is as follows 
at 77 F (25 C) 0.174 (3) raised to 0.84 to get 0.438 ml O2/hr. 
then (0.438 ml O2/hr)(0.0048 kcal.ml O2) (24 hrs/day) = 0.5 kcals/day to support resting metabolic rate. Now an inappetant frog will have a resting metabolic rate probably at least 50% greater than the SMR which translates into 0.75 kcals/day. If the frog is thin or has lost a lot of weight, then the SMR may need to be multiplied by as much as 8 times giving a SMR of 4 kcals/day. 
If we assume that a frog can absorb 50% of the glucose (given that whether or not then can absorb any is unknown at this time but there is anecdotal evidence that at least some can be taken up) then depending on condition the frog will need to be soaked in a pedialyte bath that ranges between 11.25 mls to 60 mls to meet the SMR for energy (remember three gram frog). 
(0.75 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.1 kcals) = 7.5 mls/day + (7.5)(0.5)= 11.25 mls of pedialyte 
(4 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.1 kcals) = 40 mls/day +(40)(0.5) = 60 mls/day 

If being tube fed for example with feline clinicare (0.92 kcal/ml) then only 
(0.75 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.92 kcal) = 0.81 ml/day is needed to supply the needs of the frog (already assuming a 50% increase in the metabolic needs). This can be given more than once over the course of a day if needed to prevent gorging the frog. Clinicare also supplies, protien, fat, D3 and vitamin A (this is one of the reasons we use it at work). 

Pedialyte has its uses but it also has its limitations and this needs to be taken into account when working with sick frogs. "endsnip

Diluting the pedialyte with water will significantly lower the osmolality of the solution causing the frogs to use even more energy in attempting to maintain it osmotic balance while reducing the amount of sugar that it in theory could take up... The frog will lost calcium and sodium ions to the solution.... and a ten minute bath is definitely an insufficient amount of time to uptake much from the solution while the resulting stress of the handling and bath can be a major issue for the frog. 

Ed


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks ed. 

So, stress from being held would outweigh the Pedialyte soak. And the Pedialyte really doesn't provide anything but a sugar rush for the frog (correct me if i'm wrong) So, would hand feeding the frog be more beneficial for the frog? With maybe a little more stress than being moved for a Pedialyte soak, at least the frog would be getting D3, Calcium, ect. And as mentioned in your snip the frog has lost weight, so would getting fed outweigh the stress?

I've read a few past threads, on this subject, and so many more, you seem to have a great knowledge. What would you recommend as far as hand feeding yes or no? and if yes, what to hand feed? I have both the Flukers Repta Aid on hand, and any type of insect, so dusted flies for instance hand fed?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AaronAcker said:


> Thanks ed.
> 
> So, stress from being held would outweigh the Pedialyte soak. And the Pedialyte really doesn't provide anything but a sugar rush for the frog (correct me if i'm wrong) So, would hand feeding the frog be more beneficial for the frog? With maybe a little more stress than being moved for a Pedialyte soak, at least the frog would be getting D3, Calcium, ect. And as mentioned in your snip the frog has lost weight, so would getting fed outweigh the stress?
> 
> I've read a few past threads, on this subject, and so many more, you seem to have a great knowledge. What would you recommend as far as hand feeding yes or no? and if yes, what to hand feed? I have both the Flukers Repta Aid on hand, and any type of insect, so dusted flies for instance hand fed?



The pedialyte at best provides a sugar rush. What some people and even some vets have had luck with instead of soaking the frog in a sugar solution is to place a drop or two of a sugar solution onto the back of the frog (the amount of sugar varies and these are anecdotal observations) every few hours alternating the drops with spraying the frog with room temperature water. Every few hours gently spray the frog with the water and then place one or two drops of sugar solution onto the frog. 
In some respects this is better as the frog is not being handled and stressed out by the handling and being trapped in a container with a bath (and having to maintain its osmotic potential) but there has to be some underlying reason why the frog is not eating or passing fecal material and both the sugar solution and pedialyte are not going to provide the necessary nutrients to allow the frog to keep its metabolism going (no fats, calcium, other minerals, protien etc). This is why if the frog is losing weight and still not feeding you probably should consider force feeding. Stuffing insects into its mouth is not going to provide sufficient nutrition as you cannot be sure that you are providing enough nutrition to exceed the calories lost during the restraint or that the frog will even swallow it... 
This is why a liquid medium is the best option particuarly those that are of a known caloric value. The old standby for amphibians was feline clinicare which is a predigested balanced food for sick cats, but clinicare is no longer available but there are other similar nutritional supplements are available from vets. (this is a similar product http://www.calvetsupply.com/index.asp?P ... rodID=1272 but for some reason the frogs don't seem to appreciate the vanilla flavor...) 
You would need a manner to be able to tube the frog to pass the food to them (Although some frogs would swallow liquids placed into thier mouths). Check out the link I posted above and the appropriate emergency care sheet. 

Ed


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Thanks Ed. I went ahead and hand fed him. He seemed very calm, and used the technique listed in a previous thread, and had no problem doing so... He seemed calm, surprisingly while being held. Gave him a supplement that provides for malnourished and dehydrated reptiles/amphibians. I'll talk to my vet about getting some other products like you mentioned.... Hopefully he turns around! 

At least with hand feeding I know he's eating something! I may try the few drops on the back in between misting as well... Makes more sense than pulling him out causing any more stress than he's already going through.


----------

