# 18x18x24 R. Varadero build



## ChrisAZ

I've been meaning to start this thread for a long but haven't had the time. I started this build awhile back and have kept a pretty good picture log. So here it goes.

I had treefern, cork bark and Malaysian driftwood that I wanted to incorporate. I realized that this may be a bit busy but I just had to give it a shot. 

It's an 18x18x24" Zoomed. I started by figuring out the layout







. 



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## emallard25

I'm excited to see the progress on this build, keep the pics coming! What are you using as a substrate barrier over the false bottom? I used weed blocker on my last build, and it doesn't drain very well.

Oh BTW, Thanks for the plants  Everything arrived in really good shape.


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## ChrisAZ

(Typo in first post, it should read long time in the first sentence.)

Next I marked out the edges where the cork met the glass taped it and put down a layer of black silicone. Then I used a combination of silicone, black expanding pond foam and custom mounting brackets I my with aluminum and stainless steel to mount everything in place. I did this in several stages and gave ample dry times for the foam and silicone. I reluctantly went with a pauludarirum layout (I knew it might turn into a pain, but what the hell). You can see the freshly carved foam barrier at the bottom in this shot. The blue light is just a 50/50 actinic blue, 6500k compact fluorescent I temporarily had on it that day. 











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## ChrisAZ

emallard25 said:


> I'm excited to see the progress on this build, keep the pics coming! What are you using as a substrate barrier over the false bottom? I used weed blocker on my last build, and it doesn't drain very well.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh BTW, Thanks for the plants  Everything arrived in really good shape.



I used fiberglass window screen to cover the false bottom. 
So glad you like the plants!


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## ChrisAZ

Next I covered the foam barrier with Gorilla glue, waited for it to get really tacky and then pressed on Spyra from Folius. I made it so the water can pass through two parts of the foam barrier and covers the entire bottom of the viv but the substrate is elevated. I later regretted this a bit because the Spyra wicks into the substrate a bit more than I would have liked. The sand is ADA and I collected the rocks in a stream bed.











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## jarteta97

It's looking great! I'm looking to do something similar with some malaysian driftwood though almost my entire background will be cork pieces foamed in with coco fiber in between. Where/how are you going to store a filter?


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## ChrisAZ

There isn't any moving water, so no filter, just lots of live aquatic plants and a snail.


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## emallard25

Wow, the hardscape looks great. I've love the tree fiber and cork combination. I've never made a large water feature before, but will the water be fine without filtration? Do the plants filter the water enough, or will you have to do frequent water changes?


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## ChrisAZ

My inspiration for the water feature was inka4040's mini orchid terrarium and so far I have only had to top the water off.


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## emallard25

Well that's good to know in the future. Definitely spares a lot of leg work not having to create and install an area for a pump. . I can't wait to see it planted!


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## ChrisAZ

I'll post the rest of the progress soon.


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## Mohlerbear

A snail?!


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
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## ChrisAZ

One of these guys cleans the water section.










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## ChrisAZ

Next I built the top using 1/4" glass and two vents. The vents are made with aluminum window framing and 316 Stainless Steel, 70X70, .0037" mesh from McMaster-Carr. The one in the front has a 1" opening and the one in the back is 2". I use strips of 1/8 glass to completely or partially cover them as needed. I also fruit fly proofed the whole thing with clear silicone.

The light is a 28w power compact fluorescent. I added more light later.











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## ChrisAZ

Here are some of the plants I been saving up.

This was sold as Pleopeltus percussa. It's a really cool little vining fern.









This is some riccia and penny wort.









This is mini Christmas moss growing next to regular Christmas moss.









And these are some grow out/ experiment tubs.










































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## ChrisAZ

I planted it July 5th through the 8th. I wanted to keep this viv filled with all green plants and mosses, with the only bright contrasting colors being the frogs and some small orchids. I didn't really want to add the large checker board bromeliad in the last pic because it's a bit Gaudy for my taste but I liked the reddish one I had available even less so in it went. I meant to mention earlier that this is a display vivarium and an experimental one at that.




























More to come...


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## erikm

Looks great! 

Excellent job journaling the build as well.

Can you give me some more info on the 'riccia'?

Love the look of that.. but when I google riccia alone there are many different types.


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## ChrisAZ

erikm said:


> Looks great!
> 
> 
> 
> Excellent job journaling the build as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you give me some more info on the 'riccia'?
> 
> 
> 
> Love the look of that.. but when I google riccia alone there are many different types.



It's riccia fluitans which is commonly used in the freshwater planted tank hobby. I got a decent sized portion from an aquarium store for about $5, spread it on top of some soil in a covered plastic tub and put in enough water to where it was only about 1/4 of the way under water. As the water evaporated it adapted to growing emerged vs. submerged. Then I just took pieces and spread it in my viv on top of a bead of Fluval Stratum in the water section. It started off great but has started dying back now. I'm still working figuring out why exactly.


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## ChrisAZ

Here's some plant growth progress and additional lighting. Still no frogs in the viv at this point.

July 20









July 26
New Current USA Satellite +Pro came in, I run it at about 60% power. I still can't get the timer to work on it.







































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## Ekaitz

That terrarium in awesome!! I love the way you put the cork and the tree fern panels! 

I'm setting up a terrarium with similar size. mine is 18x1818. Could you tell me please the name of the broms and the ferns that you use in yours? They look sooo cool!! I'm so worry about buy a brom too big for the terrarium.

Keep posting, its so interesting!!!


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## ChrisAZ

Here's a list of all the plants I used in the first planting of the vivarium.

Vines:
Ficus pumila Quercifolia
Ficus (Panama) lance leaf
Peperomia rotundifolia var. pilosior
Rhaphidophora pachyphylla 

Ferns:
Pleopeltus percussa
Microgramma heterophylla

Mosses:
Christmas moss
Mini Christmas moss
Java (I think)
Bali
Some that came on some orchid and fern mounts
Kyoto spores
Subwassertang (actually a fern gametophyte)

Liverworts:
Some stuff I got from Andy's orchids- large terrestrial
Riccia fluitans

Orchids:
Pleurothallis tripteranth 

Bromeliads:
Neoregelia-
Punctastissima 'Joao Marcio'
'Checker Board'
I don't remember the name of the smallest one













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## ChrisAZ

Some more progress to enjoy from August 4-6. Still hadn't moved the frogs into this one.
















































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## Bunsincunsin

You did a very nice job on the background and hardscape; I think it looks great!


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## SteppingStones

It looks great! I love the hardscape as well. I think I'll need to get ahold of some tree fern panels for my next build!!


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## oldlady25715

I think the work with the hygrolon interface with water is among the best I've seen. Would have use cork board instead of the green fern panels but it's s means to the same end -- of an Awsome tank!


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## ChrisAZ

A couple shots taken August 25th.




















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## ChrisAZ

Whoops, I had those in a file labeled Aug. 25. It didn't show the headings.


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## KJM

Really great thread, I learned a lot. Thanks for taking the time to post all this great information 😊


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## ChrisAZ

I added three new orchids to the vivarium on September 8th.

I love Trisetellas and really hope this one does well.
Trisetella cordeliae










I'm also a fan of Restrepias, this one was on sale at Andy's.
Restrepia dodsonii










And Pleurothallis are a given for vivarium orchids.
Pleurothallis grobyi with a hitch hiker fern on the top right.










I have three divisions of the original Pleurothallis tripteranth in here that are all putting out new leaves on a regular basis, no blooms as of yet in this viv. , but it did bloom for me when it was in the grow out bin. It was under a 5700k bulb though. Not sure if that made a significant difference or not.










More to come...


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## ChrisAZ

Here's a video and a couple more pics from September. I was just letting the new orchids get a little more established before moving the frogs into there new home at this point.

https://vimeo.com/142453384




















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## Encyclia

Excellent work, Chris! And thanks for the plants. They are doing great. Very happy with them. 

Mark


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## ChrisAZ

Encyclia said:


> Excellent work, Chris! And thanks for the plants. They are doing great. Very happy with them.
> 
> 
> 
> Mark



Thank you and so glad you like the plants Mark.


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## tardis101

That's a great looking tank! The plant list is much appreciated.


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## ChrisAZ

I'm happy to answer any questions that anyone has. I realize that I've left out many details and will try to post more in the near future.


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## ChrisAZ

I moved the frogs into their new vivarium on Sep. 20th. There are 4 adult R. Varadero (thanks again Eric!) that I raised together in a different viv. They have been together from the start and I've had no signs of aggression towards one another at all.



















































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## ChrisAZ

The frogs started calling within 5 minutes of being introduced to their new home and three days later...










Since this first batch of eggs I've seen several more as well as a male transporting a tadpole on his back. 


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## toronaga

from one chris in AZ to another, this is a spectacular viv!


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## ChrisAZ

Thank you Chris, I put a lot of work into it.


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## toronaga

it shows Chris, attention to detail and alot of work. I'm definatly using some of these ideas in a future build.


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## cam1941

Awesome work, really like the way you did the water line with the hydrolon... 

Came out perfect!


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## ChrisAZ

Here's some recent progress on plant growth. These pictures were taken Monday.

Close up of some moss that I really like that came on an orchid mount. I have several pieces that I placed throughout the vivarium.




























Restrepia is doing well



















Some spontaneous moss growth from spores










Various mosses, ferns from spores and vines




























I'm pretty happy with the plant growth so far and the frogs are loving it. Very active.


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## flyingSquirrel

This looks awesome. I love the water area with nice mossy transition, and the pennywort is killer. Great job on this tank!


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## ChrisAZ

What started off as little bit of white fuzzy mold has now killed about 2/3's of the moss and liverworts covering the Spyra at the bottom of vivarium. I let it get this bad because I thought it would just cycle through. Well it's not. The viv. has good passive cross ventilation at top portion of the viv. and is thriving, but I may need to install a fan for the bottom. Has anybody solved a mold problem like this one that would care to share your experience?




























And the riccia in the water is failing too.











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## rigel10

Sorry this mold is ruining your beautiful tank. 
I would put in it many many springtails: sometimes they reduce mold. More air circulation it is also good.
I hope this mold goes away. About riccia, I know that requires a lot of light. This is why I prefer moss.
I want to compliment you about your choice of frogs: Varadero are always wonderful.


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## ChrisAZ

Thanks for the concern and compliments. The mold only seems to be a threat to the growth on the Spyra, so worst case scenario is that I would just fill in the water area with substrate and more plants. I'm not convinced that's necessary though.


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## ChrisAZ

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## Rushthezeppelin

I agree more circulation and dump a bunch of extra springs and everything should be gravy in no time. Seriously awesome build though. Given me some good inspiration (there's a ton of inspiring vivs on this site though lol......hardly ever see anything drab like other herp groups).


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## ChrisAZ

Rushthezeppelin said:


> I agree more circulation and dump a bunch of extra springs and everything should be gravy in no time. Seriously awesome build though. Given me some good inspiration (there's a ton of inspiring vivs on this site though lol......hardly ever see anything drab like other herp groups).



I added a bunch of springtails and a few dwarf isopods last night. I'm setting up a small fan to a speed controller today as well.


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## ChrisAZ

Restrepia dodsonii has sent out two spikes and has several new leaves forming as well. Here's the first bloom this morning.



















One of the Neoregelia Punctastissima 'Joao Marcio' bromeliads started blooming this morning as well.











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## Rushthezeppelin

Well at least some things are going very right in your viv


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## pdfCrazy

For the money spent, which light do you like more?


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## ChrisAZ

I definitely like fluorescent lighting best. I like the look, broader spectrum and the results I get from them. But the 24w Odessea isn't nearly bright enough alone for this viv.
I was surprised how dim it was compared to coil compacts bulbs I have and the 55w pl power compact I use on my grow out bin.

The plus pro was an experiment. It's a great light, more than bright enough. Mine is turned down to 60% power right now and it still bleaches out foliage at the top of the vivarium.


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## ChrisAZ

I didn't really answer the "for the money" part of your question. I'm really not sure what to say. The Odessea was $25 and the LED was $150. I don't think either one on its own would be ideal over this particular viv. The LED doesn't have enough spread and the fluorescent is too dim. But they're doing a decent job together. I'd like to try a 36w power compact on one to test the results some day.


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## hydromaestro

Man I love this viv looks like a lot of time and effort finally paid off! Beautiful frogs as well! if you start getting more tads than you know what to do with I'm in az as well lol


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## ChrisAZ

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## toostrange

Awesome set up. Love this one.


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## Ekaitz

Hello!

Sorry but I have to make you two silly questions. 

1: How did you attach the wood pieces to the background? Did you glue them to the tree fern panels?

2. How did you plant the fern? Did you just divide it? As simple as it sound? I'm quite new with the epiphytic plants and I'm not sure how to grow the ferns and the peperomia...

Thank you for your help!!!


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## ChrisAZ

Ekaitz said:


> Hello!
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but I have to make you two silly questions.
> 
> 
> 
> 1: How did you attach the wood pieces to the background? Did you glue them to the tree fern panels?
> 
> 
> 
> 2. How did you plant the fern? Did you just divide it? As simple as it sound? I'm quite new with the epiphytic plants and I'm not sure how to grow the ferns and the peperomia...
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for your help!!!



I made aluminum plates with counter sunk screw holes, carved the treefern boards just enough so that the driftwood would seat into it slightly. I coated the aluminum plates with silicon, stuck them in place on the back of the treefern boards, then screwed stainless steel screws through the plates and treefern into the drift wood as deep as possible so they would be very solid. I added silicon in all the screw holes and where the wood is seated in the treefern as well. After all that I let it cure, then siliconed the whole assembly into the vivarium.

To mount the Pleopeltus percussa and Microgramma heterophylla, I simply took small clippings and mounted them to the treefern or cork bark with wooden tooth picks on top of some moist NewZealand long fiber sphagnum moss. The other ferns are hitch hikers on orchid mounts or grew from spores in the mosses I pulled off of orchid mounts.


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## azure89

Very nice build! that is a very nice design, and congrats on your success with the frogs as well!


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## ChrisAZ

I just looked over this thread on our laptop and realized that many of the photos are over sized and look out of focus. I posted these from my phone where they all appear right sized and high quality. Guess I'll have to get more familiar with the process of posting photos. It's strange that some came out right sized, with sharp focusing and others didn't. Any pointers?


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## ChrisAZ

So immediately after that last post I looked again and all the photographs are right sized and back in full focus. Could this be a computer issue on my end? How are the photos appearing to you guys?


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## inka4040

This tank is really spectacular. Awesome!

Re: the mold. I would do a really thorough washing of the moss area with a hand mister, fully pumped, and set to a coarse stream. Really hose all of the debris and detritus out of the moss, siphon out all the dirty water, lather, rinse, repeat. Couple sessions of that, and you should hopefully see a major abatement in mold issues.


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## ChrisAZ

inka4040 said:


> This tank is really spectacular. Awesome!



Your mini orchid build was a major influence. Thank you for documenting and sharing your experience, it was very useful. Please consider me as well if you'd ever like to sell or trade any cuttings/divisions etc...


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## cam1941

The images have been large and stretched but something seems to have changed and everything seems normal now. As I've said, well designed set up! Keep posting... 

Inka, how about some updates on your set up? 






inka4040 said:


> This tank is really spectacular. Awesome!
> 
> Re: the mold. I would do a really thorough washing of the moss area with a hand mister, fully pumped, and set to a coarse stream. Really hose all of the debris and detritus out of the moss, siphon out all the dirty water, lather, rinse, repeat. Couple sessions of that, and you should hopefully see a major abatement in mold issues.


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## ChrisAZ

I removed a lot of dead plant matter and mold by hand as well as using the spraying method you mentioned already and it looks like it has solved the problem. I just need to fill in several bald areas now. Any recommendations for types of mosses or liverworts?


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## rigel10

I use Java moss, Christmas moss and Taiwan moss. I have not tried yet (because expensive) but I know that Riccardia is another good choice. I'm glad you're solving mold problems.
Your viv is gorgeous and the frogs are simply beautiful!


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## ChrisAZ

rigel10 said:


> I use Java moss, Christmas moss and Taiwan moss. I have not tried yet (because expensive) but I know that Riccardia is another good choice. I'm glad you're solving mold problems.
> Your viv is gorgeous and the frogs are simply beautiful!



I've been considering riccardia for some time, but haven't found a good deal and had the extra funds at the same time yet.


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## inka4040

Chris, I am reluctant to trade cuttings out of that tank because of the snail issue. Will let you know though. As far as filling the bald spots, personally, I'd go the slow route and let riccardia colonize the gaps. 

Also, thanks for the kind words. I'm really happy to have folks to geek out over tanks with, and am really flattered that you got some use out of something I made. 



cam1941 said:


> Inka, how about some updates on your set up?


It'd be my pleasure.


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## ChrisAZ

inka4040 said:


> Chris, I am reluctant to trade cuttings out of that tank because of the snail issue. Will let you know though. As far as filling the bald spots, personally, I'd go the slow route and let riccardia colonize the gaps.
> 
> No problem. And I'll start looking around for a decent deal on some Riccardia.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisAZ

Here's a quick update shot of how the tank is growing in.











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## erikm

Looks like it's growing in quite nicely!

Did you get that mold issue fixed up?


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## ChrisAZ

erikm said:


> Looks like it's growing in quite nicely!
> 
> Thanks Eric.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you get that mold issue fixed up?



Yes. I removed as much dead material as possible, sprayed the moss with a fairly strong stream of water several times daily for several days to basically rinse it out and opened the ventilation a bit. It cleared up and has not returned so far.

I've also been pulling out the varieties of moss I don't like so much too let the preferred varieties fill in. There's a decent amount of moss and such sprouting up spontaneously too.


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## Mohlerbear

Looks sick man


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
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## rigel10

It looks great!


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## myersboy6

Came across your tank while searching and this tank is awesome! Well done!


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## ChrisAZ

Just another quick update video.

https://vimeo.com/152831203


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## FrogTim

Looks really awesome. Do you train or prune any of your vines? They look so perfect. My pilea and ficus form blobs my gf likens to 'afros' and your vines look so manicured growing tight along the backgrounds. I'm jealous! The fern panels are filling in nicely too.


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## ChrisAZ

FrogTim said:


> Looks really awesome. Do you train or prune any of your vines? They look so perfect. My pilea and ficus form blobs my gf likens to 'afros' and your vines look so manicured growing tight along the backgrounds. I'm jealous! The fern panels are filling in nicely too.



Thanks Tim, and yes I trim a little and use toothpicks sometimes. A lot of the vines just seem to grow that way naturally too.


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## JoeDigiorgio

It's looking amazing. This was one of the main builds that I drew inspiration from for mine. It's really coming along well.


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## alogan

That tank is stunning!


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## ChrisAZ

Added a few new bromeliads near the top and have several froglet's running around in there.


























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## myersboy6

I really like this tank. It has great depth to it making everything pop.


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## rudij

How often and how do you mist/water this system?


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## ChrisAZ

I mist lightly with distilled water once a day. A water heavy with very mild fertilizer once every couple of weeks or weekly at most.


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## JoeDigiorgio

What fertilizer do you use? I've done a lot of searching for info and experiences with frog safe fertilizers but all I can find is 'frog poop is your fertilizer'.


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## erikm

JoeDigiorgio said:


> What fertilizer do you use? I've done a lot of searching for info and experiences with frog safe fertilizers but all I can find is 'frog poop is your fertilizer'.


I'm also curious what fertilizer you are using.


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## ChrisAZ

I add:
-1/2 to 1 tsp. KelpMax
-a few drops of the super thrive and Kents iron/magnesium
-1/4tsp. Dyna grow
-(and occasionally a 1/4 or less of K-lite)
to one gallon of distilled water.
I fertilize selected plants about once a week at the most. I avoid getting it directly on the frogs but have never noticed any problems. I read that Dyna grow is frog safe somewhere. Can't remember the source though. Frogs have been thriving for quite awhile now.




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## myersboy6

I didn't know you could fertilize with frogs in the tank. Maybe that's why I'm not getting to great of color out of my broms

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## ChrisAZ

myersboy6 said:


> I didn't know you could fertilize with frogs in the tank. Maybe that's why I'm not getting to great of color out of my broms
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk



From what I've heard from bromeliad growers, they need very bright light and low nutrients to get compact growth and intense colors. Fertilizing broms will give you elongated green growth according to them. My bromeliads closest to the lights do the best and provide shade for some of the light sensitive plants and moss.


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## ChrisAZ

As far as not fertilizing with frogs in the tank, I did a lot of research first and found people that where using certain mild fertilizers with frogs successfully before I chose to try. I'm very particular about what, where and how I use it.


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## Gibbs.JP

I don't know why I've never commented on this one... been following it all along. 

Super great job, Chris. I've gotta a lot of really great ideas for my next build from this. I love it all. 

Super excited about your eggs too! I've got 4 varaderos in my 33g but think they are all females. No calling, but some eggs. Watching them to see if they develop.

Good luck with yours, and thanks for sharing this!


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## ChrisAZ

Here's some recent shots. I decided to fill in water area. I'll get some shots of the frogs soon.











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## mpods20

great job on this beautiful tank. I have a question, where did you het the hygrolon?


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## ChrisAZ

mpods20 said:


> great job on this beautiful tank. I have a question, where did you het the hygrolon?




Thank you. It's Spyra from Folius.com. Spyra is very similar to hygrolon.



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## Sleeping Frog

This is one of the nicest vivs I have seen. It's crazy beautiful.

What broms are those, the latest ones? They're stunning.


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## ChrisAZ

Tiny Woodland Wanderer said:


> This is one of the nicest vivs I have seen. It's crazy beautiful.
> 
> 
> 
> What broms are those, the latest ones? They're stunning.




Thank you!

Bromeliads:
Neoregelia-
Punctastissima 'Joao Marcio'
'Checker Board'
And I think the one in the front left is a 'Wee Willy'


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## MrMonterrubio

Very impressive.


Love your tank, the broms, the hardscape and all!!! 

Great done. Thanx for sharing.


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## DVent

Absolutely love the way you set this up!! Probably one the best I've seen.. Would love a pics update! Great job!


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## ChrisAZ

DVent said:


> Absolutely love the way you set this up!! Probably one the best I've seen.. Would love a pics update! Great job!




Thank you. I'll try to get some new shots this weekend.


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## Sammie

Great looking tank
I love that you chose a few similar looking bromeliads, a lot of people use way too many varieties making their tanks look a bit cluttered and unnatural.

Again, nicely done.


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## Woodswalker

The more I come back to this build, the more I find it's one of my favorites on the forum.


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## rjs5134

Spectacular tank... I need a little more practice before I jump into something bigger and can only hope for this level of success...

Well done.


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## ChrisAZ

Here's a few recent shots. The frogs are doing great. I really need to try to catch some of the juveniles and babies and move them to another viv. 











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## Andrew Lee

This is definitely an inspirational tank. I am impressed by how well the plants have grown out. Also, have fun trying to catch those little buggers!


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## Damon Ryan

Do you have a plant list for this?!?!


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## ChrisAZ

Damon Ryan said:


> Do you have a plant list for this?!?!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




Yes, its earlier in this thread. There may be 2 or 3 extras since the original plant list but not much.


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## Frogsarefun

Spectacular viv!
I believe I pinned it on Pinterest awhile back.


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## CaptiveColor

This is definitely one of my favorite vivs.


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## Umbra

Phenomenal! I can't believe how well it has grown out! 

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## frogboy99

absolutely stunning, the hardscape is so well placed. you have such a keen eye, keep it up mate.


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## Austindg13

Really nice


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## Austindg13

Austindg13 said:


> Really nice
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I pressed send to soon. Meant to also ask if the tank is still up and running?


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## ChrisAZ

Austindg13 said:


> I pressed send to soon. Meant to also ask if the tank is still up and running?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Sorry for the slow response. 

Yes, it is still going, though I’ve been focused on other things the last few years and have only done the very minimal in maintaining it. I’ve learned a lot from this build for sure. The frogs are still going strong. I’ll try to get some more pictures sometime soon.












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## DendroKurt

these are the most spoiled varadero I have ever seen


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## Austindg13

ChrisAZ said:


> Sorry for the slow response.
> 
> Yes, it is still going, though I’ve been focused on other things the last few years and have only done the very minimal in maintaining it. I’ve learned a lot from this build for sure. The frogs are still going strong. I’ll try to get some more pictures sometime soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Still looks awesome.


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## ChrisAZ

Here’s a few more shots of this build currently.










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## mikemakesapps

Chris,
I just stumbled upon this post for the first time and browsed thru from beginning until now... wow! What a journey. I was looking for some inspiration for my next build, and I found it.

Couple questions for you: I want to make a similar size viv for thumbs. Have you had any aggression issues along the way? I have R. Imitator Tarapoto (a pair) but want to have more frogs in an 18x18x18 or 18x18x24. Wondering if I should switch to a better behaved group frog.

And 2: what's are the boards that you put on the sides of the viv for the plants to grow up called? And how do you get the vines to grow up them?


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## ChrisAZ

mikemakesapps said:


> Chris,
> 
> I just stumbled upon this post for the first time and browsed thru from beginning until now... wow! What a journey. I was looking for some inspiration for my next build, and I found it.
> 
> 
> 
> Couple questions for you: I want to make a similar size viv for thumbs. Have you had any aggression issues along the way? I have R. Imitator Tarapoto (a pair) but want to have more frogs in an 18x18x18 or 18x18x24. Wondering if I should switch to a better behaved group frog.
> 
> 
> 
> And 2: what's are the boards that you put on the sides of the viv for the plants to grow up called? And how do you get the vines to grow up them?




I started with 4 babies that were gifted to me by a very kind member here I met while vacationing in California with my wife. Since then I’ve just let nature take it’s course and the population has always averaged about four or five frogs. I know this isn’t ideal but I didn’t really plan on breeding frogs for the pet trade or anything. 
On the walls I used cork bark and tree fern panels. Both work well but treefern is VERY expensive and apparently not very sustainable. I think the cork bark works just as good if not better, it’s inexpensive, sustainable and better looking in my opinion so that’s what I’d recommend using throughout. To get any type of plants to grow on it I used New Zealand sphagnum moss and sometimes and little rooting gel on cuttings in the very beginning but I don’t know how necessary the gel was or how safe it is for frogs. The frogs and plants have thrived long term but that isn’t a great argument to use chemicals that may be harmful in my opinion so I’m not necessarily recommending it. What I do recommend is try to find people that have been successful long term and read their threads and ask lots of questions.


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## Socratic Monologue

ChrisAZ said:


> Since then I’ve just let nature take it’s course and the population has always averaged about four or five frogs. I know this isn’t ideal but I didn’t really plan on breeding frogs for the pet trade or anything.


So, they reproduced and you removed froglets periodically? Do you recall about how many offspring you pulled out in a given period of time?


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## ChrisAZ

Socratic Monologue said:


> So, they reproduced and you removed froglets periodically? Do you recall about how many offspring you pulled out in a given period of time?




No, I’ve never removed any froglets, it’s simply been survival of the fittest. That’s why I said it’s not ideal. They certainly breed on a regular basis though. Right now I see what looks like two or three adults, a large juvenile and I recently saw a tadpole being transported by one of the adults.


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## Socratic Monologue

Got it; I appreciate the honest response.

I'm not criticizing you at all, but I want to point this out for anyone who sees this thread and thinks they might want to keep imitators in groups: four frogs went in here four and a half years ago, and there are probably roughly four frogs in there now. 

My imitator pairs each raise about four froglets a year, maybe five. I didn't see you mention the sex ratio, but even one pair should produce 15-20 froglets in that time frame. 

Possibly yours don't follow through on tad care because of negative interactions (heck, imitator could possibly engage in brood parasitism as do amazonica); perhaps the water feature contributes to tadpole loss (I've had this experience with two tads in a viv I had a shallow water basin in, not unlike yours); perhaps there is actually death of frogs/froglets occurring because of the social situation. There are 15-40 froglets (depending on how many adults are in there) that are unaccounted for, at any rate, and I hope anyone who considers keeping imitators in groups thinks this through.

Again, I do appreciate you sharing your viv and experiences with us, sincerely. 



ChrisAZ said:


> No, I’ve never removed any froglets, it’s simply been survival of the fittest. That’s why I said it’s not ideal. They certainly breed on a regular basis though. Right now I see what looks like two or three adults, a large juvenile and I recently saw a tadpole being transported by one of the adults.


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## ChrisAZ

Socratic Monologue said:


> Got it; I appreciate the honest response.
> 
> I'm not criticizing you at all, but I want to point this out for anyone who sees this thread and thinks they might want to keep imitators in groups: four frogs went in here four and a half years ago, and there are probably roughly four frogs in there now.
> 
> My imitator pairs each raise about four froglets a year, maybe five. I didn't see you mention the sex ratio, but even one pair should produce 15-20 froglets in that time frame.
> 
> Possibly yours don't follow through on tad care because of negative interactions (heck, imitator could possibly engage in brood parasitism as do amazonica); perhaps the water feature contributes to tadpole loss (I've had this experience with two tads in a viv I had a shallow water basin in, not unlike yours); perhaps there is actually death of frogs/froglets occurring because of the social situation. There are 15-40 froglets (depending on how many adults are in there) that are unaccounted for, at any rate, and I hope anyone who considers keeping imitators in groups thinks this through.
> 
> Again, I do appreciate you sharing your viv and experiences with us, sincerely.


Happy to share the whole experience. I’ve been very torn about keeping exotics captive. I went into this hesitantly, not really wanting to get into breeding or contributing to the pet trade. I used to be very involved in the exotic pet trade when I was younger and have seen way to many animals end up in the hands of the inexperienced only to die a slow death. The member that gave me the original frogs explained that if I removed the eggs or froglets and raised them separately I could produce quite a few, however I made a decision not to go that route.



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## mikemakesapps

Good points Socractic. After having done more reading, I'm leaning towards a more group-friendly frog like R. Variabilis so I don't have to worry about social interactions so much. As much as I like Imitators, I'd rather have peace of mind not worrying about fighting.

And I second that, thanks Chris for the stories and all the great photos of the evolution of your viv over the years!


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## SkyShark

Fantastic build. I know this is an old thread, but @ChrisAZ do you have any pictures of the initial setup and construction? It looks like the photos from post #3 don't show up anymore. I'm considering going with the tree fern panels and am curious to hear/see more about how you constructed it. 
Thanks!


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## ChrisAZ

SkyShark said:


> Fantastic build. I know this is an old thread, but @ChrisAZ do you have any pictures of the initial setup and construction? It looks like the photos from post #3 don't show up anymore. I'm considering going with the tree fern panels and am curious to hear/see more about how you constructed it.
> Thanks!


Thank you, here’s what are probably the missing photos. Let me know if you have any questions.


























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## SkyShark

Thanks for adding the photos!


ChrisAZ said:


> Then I used a combination of silicone, black expanding pond foam and custom mounting brackets I my with aluminum and stainless steel to mount everything in place.


Can you explain in a little more detail how you used the brackets to mount everything in place? Was just silicone not enough to hold the cork and tree fern panels to the glass?


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## ChrisAZ

SkyShark said:


> Thanks for adding the photos!
> 
> Can you explain in a little more detail how you used the brackets to mount everything in place? Was just silicone not enough to hold the cork and tree fern panels to the glass?


Sure. 
I cut some stainless sheet metal rectangles around 3” x 6” (give or take) and used 2” or so stainless steel wood screws to attach them to the back of driftwood then siliconed the back of the sheet metal (brackets) directly to the glass. This gave the driftwood a lot more mounting surface area and insured they would stay firmly in place long term. Afterwards I siliconed the edges of the cork bark pieces to the glass, taped off the areas I wanted protected and filled the gaps behind them in with black expanding pond foam. After that I carved away any excess foam and removed the painters tape. Then I just siliconed the tree fern panels in place. I had already put a layer of black silicone on the glass covering all they areas the background would cover and carefully cut and pieced together all the pieces like a puzzle for a test, dry fit, prior to this of course. The tree fern panels were mounted over lapping the stainless steel sheet metal brackets that held up the driftwood so they added even more support for the wood jutting out. All this support (possibly overkill) for the driftwood simply allowed for more arrangement options and piece of mind. 
It’s still firmly in place to this day and I don’t see any signs of sagging or loosing grip. Let me know if that explains it, l had to right this in a hurry.


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## SkyShark

ChrisAZ said:


> Sure.
> I cut some stainless sheet metal rectangles around 3” x 6” (give or take) and used 2” or so stainless steel wood screws to attach them to the back of driftwood then siliconed the back of the sheet metal (brackets) directly to the glass. This gave the driftwood a lot more mounting surface area and insured they would stay firmly in place long term. Afterwards I siliconed the edges of the cork bark pieces to the glass, taped off the areas I wanted protected and filled the gaps behind them in with black expanding pond foam. After that I carved away any excess foam and removed the painters tape. Then I just siliconed the tree fern panels in place. I had already put a layer of black silicone on the glass covering all they areas the background would cover and carefully cut and pieced together all the pieces like a puzzle for a test, dry fit, prior to this of course. The tree fern panels were mounted over lapping the stainless steel sheet metal brackets that held up the driftwood so they added even more support for the wood jutting out. All this support (possibly overkill) for the driftwood simply allowed for more arrangement options and piece of mind.
> It’s still firmly in place to this day and I don’t see any signs of sagging or loosing grip. Let me know if that explains it, l had to right this in a hurry.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Makes sense to me. Thanks!


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## ChrisAZ

No problem 


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## LarryMac

Thanks a bunch Chris, this was inspirational.


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## ChrisAZ

LarryMac said:


> Thanks a bunch Chris, this was inspirational.


Glad you found it helpful. It’s been a learning process. I’m getting ready to build another soon, I’ve got pretty much everything I need except the time to build it.


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