# FFs and OJ



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

How many of you use something other than water as the liquid when making up your FF cultures?

I was on a dart frog web site from I think Germany where the person used orange juice. So I thought I would give it a try. I made up 2 cultures my usual way with water and 2 with orange juice. After 1 week the OJ cultures are producing better.

The first & third cup are the ones with the OJ.









When I first started in dart frogs I remember a recipe using grape juice. What else have you tried?


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## gretchenellie (Aug 7, 2007)

i have begun using orange juice as well..

i use the potato flake, OJ, Sugar, Ready Brek and yeast method.

i get great production from it!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Make sure you use Tropicana and support their Save the Rainforest promotion!

John


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Awhile back I came across an awesome web video that was from the UK. It had a very similar formula as gretchenellie. In the video it showed the differences over time with the 2 cultures and the one with orange juice produced more and earlier than the water culture. I just can't seem to use it due to price and the fact that it barely makes it to my glass. Because I love OJ and don't wan to share it with my insects! LOL  Any alternatives like apple juice?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

atlfrog said:


> Any alternatives like apple juice?


That's next


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I have plenty of that around and it's cheap. I be interested in your results.


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## EricT (Nov 10, 2007)

Keep us posted Gary. I wonder if mold will be an issue?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

There are a few recipes which use apple sauce too.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

EricT said:


> Keep us posted Gary. I wonder if mold will be an issue?


I was wondering that too. I add a little vinegar when using water but I hestitated to use it with the OJ. Not sure how the combination of OJ & vinegar would react. So I left it out this time and I'll see what happens.


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

Corpus Callosum said:


> There are a few recipes which use apple sauce too.


I use applesauce with decent results. I have started a couple CX with different recipe's I am new so I really don't have anything to base off of unless I try em all.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

thanks for posting Gary.

I'm going to give it a try myself. Not sure it is economical though...

Apple sauce I have used. Does seem to keep them more moist and IMO that is the key. Higher humidity. The sugar can be supplemented in many ways...

crushed up ripe banana, apple sauce, confectioners, honey, and I guess now OJ :-0

Shawn


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> I'm going to give it a try myself. Not sure it is economical though..
> Shawn


Well, I'm only doing 3-4 cultures a week not the 30-40 you're probably doing


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I have done the apple sauce and it was alright. I swapped to Josh's media (Joshsfrogs.com) after that.


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

Liquids i've tried are apple juice, OJ, grape juice, red and white wine vinegars, fruitopia, a few different flavors of tropicana splash, apple cider and cranberry juice.
The cranberry, apple, red wine, and grape juices didn't fare as well as the others above.
Oh i've also tried adding a little maple syrup when i used water and that also didn't fare as well as i had thought it would.

Ed


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Ed Holder said:


> Liquids i've tried are apple juice, OJ, grape juice, red and white wine vinegars, fruitopia, a few different flavors of tropicana splash, apple cider and cranberry juice.
> The cranberry, apple, red wine, and grape juices didn't fare as well as the others above.
> Oh i've also tried adding a little maple syrup when i used water and that also didn't fare as well as i had thought it would.
> 
> Ed


COOL. Thanks for the input Ed.

When it gets to be the correct time of year out here fresh apple cider is another one I want to try.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The production is also going to be dependent on how you are selecting the flies to use as founders for the new culture. I noted above, there was a comment that they were producing earlier... that is an indication that you have been selecting your founders from the first hatches in the cultures which selects for ffs that mature more quickly but are more intolerant of conditions that accumulate later in the culture.

So are you also tracking production over time in the cultures or are going off the first hatch or so? 


Ed


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Ed said:


> The production is also going to be dependent on how you are selecting the flies to use as founders for the new culture. I noted above, there was a comment that they were producing earlier... that is an indication that you have been selecting your founders from the first hatches in the cultures which selects for ffs that mature more quickly but are more intolerant of conditions that accumulate later in the culture.
> 
> So are you also tracking production over time in the cultures or are going off the first hatch or so?
> 
> ...


I've seen you mention this before Ed. I'm now careful not to always start my cultures with the first boom from new cultures. At any one time I have cultures that are at 4 different stages of development. When I make up new cultures I start them with FFs from all these different stages - not all in the same cup, different cups. See...............some of us actually do pay attention to what you have to say 

But now that you mention it, I'm not sure if I started all these cultures from the same batch of FFs. I believe though I used 2 batches of FFs and with each batch I did 1 regular culture and 1 OJ culture.

I've got a second round of these cultures going to see if I get similar results to the first round. Plus I want to see in another week how the hatch outs from the two different cultures turn out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Good deal.. Just making sure. 

I've found that by doing that I get a couple of booms but additionally a steady production of ffs in the cultures. 

Ed


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## Ontariofrogger1973 (Oct 18, 2008)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Make sure you use Tropicana and support their Save the Rainforest promotion!
> 
> John


amen !!!!


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Little update to this thread.

I made up the cultures using Apple Juice this time. I did 2 with the AJ and 2 with water. The AJ ones look to be producing just a little bit better, certainly not the difference I saw with the OJ ones.

AJ cultures are the 1st & 3rd ones.









I did a second round to see if I get similar results. They'll be another week yet.

Next I think I'm going to do 2 OJ & 2 AJ.

If I get a taste for grape juice next time I go shopping I'll try a batch of those


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

i havnt tried OJ yet considering i drink it like water in my house. but i dont seem to get much better results with AJ then i do with the water. i personally think the flys like the sweetness in the juice and that can be whats setting it off. but the AJ doesnt seem to do much better to the point i would switch over. but a very interesting thread considering i been sitting home thinking of other ways to make the cultures. when ppl make their new cultures are they using the same flys for example. use flys once they see larva move those flys to the new culture or are they using the next generation of flys and so forth.?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Good to know your results using the AJ. THANKS.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I was also experimenting with the OJ vs. Water mix as well. Both cultures were made 3-7 and I am seeing the maggot stage now. I seem to be getting more beginning production out of the cultures were I used water. I would say about a 25% increase. I also want to experiement with which lasts longer so those results are yet to be seen. I used flies out of the same culture when I made them.


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

I use jars of baby food. Banana is the best but i got descent yields from peach as well.

They are like 50 cents each


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## cyberbrat (Jul 14, 2008)

MrGerbik said:


> I use jars of baby food. Banana is the best but i got descent yields from peach as well.
> 
> They are like 50 cents each


Do you mean you use baby food in substitution of water or that is the only ingredient you use for FF media?

Curious!


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

The majority is babyfood, i add water in small doses until i get a consistancy i am happy with


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

Since this thread, I've tried this on one of my hydei cultures with Tropicana, high pulp. I would have to agree that its made a significant impact on the production rate by 1 week. As good as the results may have been, I dont think I will be spending additional $$$ on OJ given the number of cultures I create weekly. I cant justify the cost. For the most part, being on top of my culture creation leaves no gaps in feeding, but I can see how this can help in the cases of crashes. Nutritionally, I dont know if there is any significant advantages. 

Just thought I'd share.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Sorry but this thread is a bit frustrating to me in that the 'experiment' is not being performed with good design behind it. 
Three important steps in good experimental design are 1. to define your objectives, 2. to devise a strategy, and 3. to write out how it will be performed. 
Other things to consider are:
1. having enough replication
2. including controls along with the other treatments
3. 'blinding' the treatments
4. measure your results with accuracy and precision 

Here’s an example of how it might be set up. 

Background: Adding Orange Juice to my FF media gave what appeared to be higher numbers of FF’s produced in comparison to my regular media.

Hypothesis: using Orange Juice in my FF media gives better results than Apple Juice or water.

Treatments:
1.	Treatment 1 Control = FF media with water
2.	Treatment 2 = FF media with OJ
3.	Treatment 3 = FF media with AJ

Notes: 5 replicates minimum per treatment. Add 100 ~ flies to each replicate. Culture at 75 degrees F +/- 2 degrees. Collect data at 15 days after inoculation. 

Chronology: 

Sorry for the ranting...


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Also a large sample size would be nice to get valid statistical results  .


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Hmmmmmmmm......................I reread my first few posts and I didn't see any mention of some kind of "scientific experiment" I was trying to conduct???

But, you & Mike go right ahead. I look forward to seeing your results.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Now, now Gary, they are just teaching us all the scientific method 

And their right, but...big BUT...I agree, if you want something done right ya gotta do it yourself. Have at it.... 

I think the 'pilot' study though has proven interesting and to be 'food' for thought...

Nice


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I guess this means I probably shouldn't post my "observations" with the grape juice cultures I have going now. BUMMER


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

You definitely gotta do it yourself if you want something done right, but fortunately for me, I care more about drinking orange juice  I was just pulling your leg anyway.

P.S. none of my experiments have a proper sample size either, lol.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

gary1218 said:


> I guess this means I probably shouldn't post my "observations" with the grape juice cultures I have going now. BUMMER


You can send them secretly to me via pm.....shhhhhh


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Corpus Callosum said:


> You definitely gotta do it yourself if you want something done right, but fortunately for me, I care more about drinking orange juice  I was just pulling your leg anyway.
> 
> P.S. none of my experiments have a proper sample size either, lol.


No nice foam shipping boxes for you at our next GNYADS get together. They're ALL going to Stacey


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Gary,

I'm still interested in your observations [and I be Tim and Mike are also]. Post away..

Esp since I cant make any meeting for a group who's name reminds me of GONADS


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> Esp since I cant make any meeting for a group who's name reminds me of GONADS


You just don't have the balls to attend one of our get togethers.

Hmmmmmmm.................as a moderator you're probably going to delete that, aren't you


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Joe Nickerson had some. Everyone else complained about the snow!


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

I'm a freak about wasting anything, so any fruit or juice that isn't eaten gets put into the freezer for next weeks FF media. I keep juice and fruit separate so that I can get the same close approximate consistency each time.

If the kids don't finish their OJ or V8 juice at breakfast, in it goes. If I cut the tops off of strawberries, or apples go bad, in they go.

The only thing I stay away from are bananas and grapes. Bananas to me are too risky at having native FF in them by the time they go bad, and grapes seem to prone to mold. Everything else if fair game.

BTW, I have not read the whole thread, but in case it has not been mentioned, OJ lowers the PH which works to some extent as a mold inhibitor. I have wondered if I could talk the local grocer into giving me their out dated juices....


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## FuzzyTB (Apr 3, 2008)

SLEDDER,
My wife is going to be upset at you. My boys usually don't finish their juice and I see fruit smoothies in the FF's future.

Tim, your hypothesis is a bit broad. You are using two variables against your control. I would stick with OJ as the variable and set it up:
Group 1 ~ Water 
Group 2 ~ half water/half OJ
Group 3 ~ OJ

This thread has given me so good things to think about. Thanks Gary.


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