# Safe Water



## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Is aquarium water safe for frogs?

How do people get their water? 

I was thinking that I could use clean water change water from my tropical fish tanks as dart water for the plants, false bottom etc?

Is it true here that "Whats safe for fish is safe for frogs?" I have heard that used quite frequently. 

Please advise. Thank you


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I would think that aquarium water is a potential source of Chytrid. I wouldn't use it myself.


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## LexisaurusRex (Aug 8, 2013)

You never know what bacteria might be in aquarium water so Id be a little weary... I use spring water for my guys a lot of people like RO (reverse osmosis) water because it doesn't have all the minerals that can leave residue on your tank but its more acidic and can eat at your glass and make it kinda foggy after a while. 

Edit:
Or I've heard aged tap water is fine if you don't want to spend too much money. I just live in some really old apartments and am kinda scared of what might be in it haha but I'm probably just paranoid.

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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

LexiandScott said:


> I use spring water for my guys a lot of people like RO (reverse osmosis) water because it doesn't have all the minerals that can leave residue on your tank but its more acidic and can eat at your glass and make it kinda foggy after a while.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Do you have a reference or source for this information?


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I prefer distilled water, because unlike RO it contain's less minerals and doesn't cause the stupid build up of mineral on the glass.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Then is the only safe water RO water?

It would seem that way. Chytrid is aquatic and therefore could be almost anywhere.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> Then is the only safe water RO water?
> 
> It would seem that way. Chytrid is aquatic and therefore could be almost anywhere.


Not true, aged tap water is fine, as is RO and all misting systems and foggers will tell you to use distilled water in them. 
They are all fine, but tap water could leave mineral deposits on your glass.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

RO over time will also add mineral buildup. I would never use distilled for tad rearing, however for misting I only use distilled and take a razor once a month and scrape lightly to prevent mineral buildup. I know its a bit excessive but I hate mineral build up since I don't have vents on my tanks I get a large amount of fog on the glass so I need to be excessive ^.^

For tad rearing I would use spring or aged tap if your area doesn't utilize a strong chlorine in the water. where I live in Tucson you can actually smell it when it comes from the fridge.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not true, aged tap water is fine, as is RO and all misting systems and foggers will tell you to use distilled water in them.
> They are all fine, but tap water could leave mineral deposits on your glass.


Actually, many water processing plants (I believe the majority of them), have begun using chloromines instead of straight chlorine. Chloromines do NOT evaporate the same way that chlorine does. It takes a few drops of a chlorine remover/neutralizer, like DeClhlor, to neutralize it.
Aging your tap water may or may not remove your chlorine/chloromines. You could inquire of your local water company, or just treat it as if it had chloromines.
In any case, I only use tap water for my tadpoles. Tap water would eventually leave you with mineral build up on your glass and in your misting nozzles.


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## LexisaurusRex (Aug 8, 2013)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Do you have a reference or source for this information?


I talked to a local breeder about it the other day and he showed me what it was doing to the glass in his tanks. 

I was unaware I had to leave references with every post because I haven't had frogs for 10 years.
Just thought Id pass on some info I got from someone with a significant anount of frogs.

Yes if your using a missing system you want to use distilled so it doesn't clog. 


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

VenomR00 said:


> I prefer distilled water, because unlike RO it contain's less minerals and doesn't cause the stupid build up of mineral on the glass.


I have used both distilled and RO and have never noticed a difference. Do you own an RO system? If so, do you measure your output? Mine is either 0 ppm or 1 ppm. 


Cresteds 2.6


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Do dechlorinators work?

Prime for example?


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

I use RODI. Be sure to use a flush valve if available for your system. Remember that the filter media will begin going-to-waste immediately. Flushing will prolong the life... but as the media fails, more and more sediment will make it thru to your production bucket.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> Do dechlorinators work?
> 
> Prime for example?


Prime is great. I have been using it for a number of years. It will neutralize chlorine as well as chloramine. Be sure to circulate and aerate your water to maximize efficiency.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

I have access to RO water at work, but just for in pinches, I want to know what is, and isnt okay.

Tap water with prime has a go ahead? We use very little chlorine around here, and I dont believe you can remove it with aging. 

From what I understand you cant "age" tapwater anymore because most use the type of chlorine that will not gas out.


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> I have access to RO water at work, but just for in pinches, I want to know what is, and isnt okay.
> 
> Tap water with prime has a go ahead? We use very little chlorine around here, and I dont believe you can remove it with aging.
> 
> From what I understand you cant "age" tapwater anymore because most use the type of chlorine that will not gas out.


Get a water report from your local municipality for certainty over assumption regarding chlorine/chloramine levels. 

That "ageless" water may be referring to chloramine. 

Check out the thread that I link below. Unfortunately it does not get into the chlorine, etc, as far as I read but it touches on some other points of how Prime works

Prime questions... - Seachem Support Forums

I would say aged water that is Prime treated is ok as long as the container is established. See the linked thread as it refers to RO. (My water container is not treated any differently than some bare bottom fish tanks that I have kept thru the years. I also do my best to culture and maintain bacteria rather than completely sterilize in an effort to remove said toxins). 

Someone please add to or correct me, but ammonia spikes heavily due to the RO process and needs to be neutralized and removed. I would assume ammonia = bad = slow-death-fog for the frogs.

**Edit** I want to research the length of binding that Prime has with chlorine and chloramine. Take my "I would say aged..." paragraph with a grain of salt


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Keep in mind, while the water that the water co. sends out is probably fine after it's been dechlorinated, the water might still go through some old pipes that could be leaching out heavy metals or the like by the time the water reaches your faucet


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## Harpo (Nov 9, 2012)

hypostatic said:


> Keep in mind, while the water that the water co. sends out is probably fine after it's been dechlorinated, the water might still go through some old pipes that could be leaching out heavy metals or the like by the time the water reaches your faucet



Also to add:

Run off leaching
Water contamination in post-chlorine treated water (see all boil advisory ever)
Storm surge (related to leaching and not bound to coastal storms in terms of said leaching)


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## Raggamuffin (Sep 16, 2013)

Harpo said:


> I use RODI. Be sure to use a flush valve if available for your system. Remember that the filter media will begin going-to-waste immediately. Flushing will prolong the life... but as the media fails, more and more sediment will make it thru to your production bucket.



I use a 5 stage BRS RO/DI with a chloromines chamber as well, I get less that 1ppm for about a month maybe 2 at 100 gallons a week. I know it is clean but my question is: Is it TOO clean?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Here we use only RO water. Tap water here is hard and has high conductivity: although aged, does not lose these characteristics. Or am I wrong? I am not referring to chlorine or heavy metals, it would be enough to neutralize a water conditioner for aquarium (such as Prime).
On the other hand, I use a mix of RO water and tap water for fishtank.


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

As a designer, fabricator, and seller of RO systems and supplies, there seems to be a lot of incorrect information/marketing hype being accepted here.

Standard residential RO membranes will remove 93-99% of all dissolved solids, depending upon the specific membrane. The better (purer) your input water, the purer the output. The purity can be improved by adding a DI cartridge to the output line, but I frankly doubt it's worth doing. (OK, it certainly isn't for plants; I hope someone with knowledge, and not lore, can address frogs.)

If you have chlorinated water - chlorine, sodium hypochlorite, or chloramines - adequate carbon filtration will handle it. That's the purpose of a 5-stage system - adding a second carbon cartridge to increase the removal capacity. There is no need to take extra measures beyond that.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

LexiandScott said:


> You never know what bacteria might be in aquarium water so Id be a little weary... I use spring water for my guys a lot of people like RO (reverse osmosis) water because it doesn't have all the minerals that can leave residue on your tank but its more acidic and can eat at your glass and make it kinda foggy after a while.
> 
> Edit:
> Or I've heard aged tap water is fine if you don't want to spend too much money. I just live in some really old apartments and am kinda scared of what might be in it haha but I'm probably just paranoid.
> ...



Ray, since you're in the water treatment field, can you make a statement to either confirm or disprove the above statement as false? Is the pH of the water going into an RO system the same when it comes out? Will it "eat glass"? Thanks.



Ray said:


> As a designer, fabricator, and seller of RO systems and supplies, there seems to be a lot of incorrect information/marketing hype being accepted here.
> 
> Standard residential RO membranes will remove 93-99% of all dissolved solids, depending upon the specific membrane. The better (purer) your input water, the purer the output. The purity can be improved by adding a DI cartridge to the output line, but I frankly doubt it's worth doing. (OK, it certainly isn't for plants; I hope someone with knowledge, and not lore, can address frogs.)
> 
> If you have chlorinated water - chlorine, sodium hypochlorite, or chloramines - adequate carbon filtration will handle it. That's the purpose of a 5-stage system - adding a second carbon cartridge to increase the removal capacity. There is no need to take extra measures beyond that.


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ray, since you're in the water treatment field, can you make a statement to either confirm or disprove the above statement as false? Is the pH of the water going into an RO system the same when it comes out? Will it "eat glass"? Thanks.


For all practical purposes, the level of dissolved solids in the RO output is so low that it should not affect the pH appreciably, if at all. To answer the question then, the pH of the input water should have no bearing on that of the output unless the membrane is a poor one and the incoming water is very heavily contaminated.

That said, the pH of pure water is 7.000, but as it has no buffering capacity, the pH of the water can shift dramatically with the slightest addition of almost anything.

For example, water readily absorbs carbon dioxide from the air, which forms carbonic acid. The equilibrium pH is abut 5.3, but that can be lower if you live in a urban area with a lot of motor vehicles or industry, and will likely drop to lower levels as the amount of CO2 in the air increases. Fortunately carbonic acid is SO weak, that the addition of something else to the water completely overwhelms it, and THAT controls the pH.

I happen to be a ceramic engineer and scientist by education, and I guarantee that RO water does not "eat" glass. Glass is damaged by basic solutions, not neutral-to-acidic ones. The only exception being _aqua regia_, a blend of concentrated nitric- and hydrochlorinc acids, which must be contained in plastic. Nothing you can add to RO will make it THAT aggressive!


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ray said:


> For all practical purposes, the level of dissolved solids in the RO output is so low that it should not affect the pH appreciably, if at all. To answer the question then, the pH of the input water should have no bearing on that of the output unless the membrane is a poor one and the incoming water is very heavily contaminated.
> 
> That said, the pH of pure water is 7.000, but as it has no buffering capacity, the pH of the water can shift dramatically with the slightest addition of almost anything.
> 
> ...


Ray thank you for confirming what I already believed to be true. Before getting into frogs several years ago I kept Cichlids for many years. I've had many discussions over the years with fish keepers about RO water, pH, buffering capacity and the like. I just wanted to confirm with someone who is more of a "water expert" that indeed water cannot eat glass. I hate to see bad information being passed off as truth. You never know who will parrot it.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

In many years of fishkeeping I had never heard before this, that RO water eats glass. 
My RO water - the last control - has a level of conductivity of 21 microsiemens, ph 6.5, 19 ppm (Hanna Instruments). I use only RO water to mist vivs, but I add tap water for fishtank. Any advice?


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ray thank you for confirming what I already believed to be true. Before getting into frogs several years ago I kept Cichlids for many years. I've had many discussions over the years with fish keepers about RO water, pH, buffering capacity and the like. I just wanted to confirm with someone who is more of a "water expert" that indeed water cannot eat glass. I hate to see bad information being passed off as truth. You never know who will parrot it.


Actually water can "eat glass", but it's a REAL long-term thing.

Most glass we see is so-called "soda-lime" glass. That is SiO2 that has been modified through the addition sodium and calcium carbonates (and a whole lot more) to make it melt at a lower temperature and be more workable. You can think of the structure as a network of SiO4 tetrahedra with the occasional Ca or Na (etc.) in it to break up the bonds.

With VERY long-term exposure to water, those alkaline metal ions can go into solution and form "micropockets" of high-pH solutions, which can further dissolve the Si-O bond. I have a prohibition-era whiskey bottle that a scuba-diving friend recovered from Long Island Sound, and after 70-80 years of submersion in what is already a slightly alkaline solution, the surface shows enough pitting that it is iridescent.

So to be technically correct, the water CAN eat the glass, but you'd have to give it half a century or more to be noticeable.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ray said:


> Actually water can "eat glass", but it's a REAL long-term thing.
> 
> Most glass we see is so-called "soda-lime" glass. That is SiO2 that has been modified through the addition sodium and calcium carbonates (and a whole lot more) to make it melt at a lower temperature and be more workable. You can think of the structure as a network of SiO4 tetrahedra with the occasional Ca or Na (etc.) in it to break up the bonds.
> 
> ...


70-80 years in seawater is a lot different than a vivarium using RO water.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Correct me if I'm wrong -- but even with RO membranes, can't phosphates, nitrates, and other small ions (which can very much impact water chemistry and even tadpole health) get through without the use of a DI chamber?


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## Raggamuffin (Sep 16, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong -- but even with RO membranes, can't phosphates, nitrates, and other small ions (which can very much impact water chemistry and even tadpole health) get through without the use of a DI chamber?


Yes yes I am a post count newbie but trust me on this one. I keep reef tanks and while no "expert" after 10 years in that hobby I take my water purity VERY seriously. While it IS possible for these to make it through a RO system they can't make it through an RO/DI system unless something is bad in the unit (or it is very low quality). What you see a lot is a system without a catalytic carbon chamber which does NOT remove chloromines. This is why most reef keepers use a 5 stage instead of a 4 stage unit. When chloromines break down they end up turning into nitrates. I do not know the reaction that causes this myself but I have watched it over and over in tanks that end up being over run in algae.

All in all yes you are correct but if you do not know your local water even with an RO/DI (an inappropriate one at least) they will find a way in.

Edit: I would just like to add something I have said for years, $30 extra for a better unit, $20 more in carbon every few months = peace of mind and all bases covered for years. It is worth every penny!


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Many things CAN make it through, but, again, it depends upon your membrane, its condition, and the concentrations of those ions in the incoming water supply.

Here's a plot of the relative sizes of stuff. Look at the area above the blue line at the bottom for what an RO membrane can remove, but still may pass.










I have done marine and reef tanks myself, and if the membrane did not remove enough of those "bad guys", I'm reasonably confident that there was something wrong with the system, or the way it was being used.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Hmmmm, so what is the purpose of the DI chamber then?


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## Raggamuffin (Sep 16, 2013)

to get the stuff the RO misses, again with reasonable maintenance and any halfway decent system you are ok. Chloromines in your water just means adding a chamber for catalytic carbon and you are fine. My water comes into the house at 500+ PPM and leaves my system at less than 1.


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## martysmith87 (Sep 23, 2013)

is there nothing to add to RO water to make it the perfect solution???


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> Tap water here is hard and has high conductivity: although aged, does not lose these characteristics. Or am I wrong?


 That is correct. Water sitting in solution will not lose its hardness. Also, hard water and high conductivity go hand and hand.




Cresteds 2.6


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't know all the deals on this, but I can say that DI water I have used has measured a low pH, 5-6ish.

Now as for the glass eating. I have heard a couple of people say that from the aquarium industry. They say that water that evaporates and condenses on the glass cover eats it over time and makes it look permanently foggy. So they suggest replacing the glass cover of an aquarium after some years if light is important. 

The other anecdote is an aquarium maker around here says that they can get etching at the water line in tanks. This came up in a conversation where they were mentioning why rimless aquariums are a bad fad with a lot of down sides and not many upsides. 

All that said it never made sense to me. If pure water can eat away at glass even in the slightest amount and cause it to look foggy over time then what is going on with all our outdoor windows that are being rained on all the time? Do they have some sort of coating? Many windows in houses look just fine and most people don't replace them for well over a decade at minimum. Rain water can be acidic, and rain water should be pretty close to distilled water. What about condensation many people have problems with?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I have kept fish for a span of over 30 years and cannot say I have even heard of RO water eating glass or making it foggy. I think you must have misunderstood what you heard. If you have an aquarium that has water with minerals in it (somewhat hard tap water), with time, a glass top can get cloudy because the water that evaporates leaves the minerals behind. It does take time.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Hmmm yeah, as I understand it when water evaporates only the h2o molecules evaporate, and any other molecules are left behind (the principle behind distillation). I think the worse that could happen would be a hard water stain from the stuff left behind after the water evaporates, but I don't think that dissolves or reacts much with the glass -- it shouldn't be worse than the hard water stains in your shower.

Maybe the aquarium maker was yanking your chain. Or just trying to get you to buy more stuff by lying lol


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Pubfiction said:


> I don't know all the deals on this, but I can say that DI water I have used has measured a low pH, 5-6ish.


Yep, acidified due to the carbon dioxide in the air. Just as expected.



Pubfiction said:


> Now as for the glass eating. I have heard a couple of people say that from the aquarium industry. They say that water that evaporates and condenses on the glass cover eats it over time and makes it look permanently foggy. So they suggest replacing the glass cover of an aquarium after some years if light is important.
> 
> The other anecdote is an aquarium maker around here says that they can get etching at the water line in tanks. This came up in a conversation where they were mentioning why rimless aquariums are a bad fad with a lot of down sides and not many upsides.
> 
> All that said it never made sense to me. If pure water can eat away at glass even in the slightest amount and cause it to look foggy over time then what is going on with all our outdoor windows that are being rained on all the time? Do they have some sort of coating? Many windows in houses look just fine and most people don't replace them for well over a decade at minimum. Rain water can be acidic, and rain water should be pretty close to distilled water. What about condensation many people have problems with?


I have kept tanks for years, as well, and the only "fogginess" or "lines" are due to the deposition of dissolved solids in the water, usually from bubbles from an air stone.

It is possible that those solids, if left unattended and kept moist, could _eventually_ pit the surface, but pure water won't deposit anything, so will not do that.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Here I have a doubt... My RO water has a conductivity of 20-25 microsiemens, but a pH that oscillates between 6.6 and 6.8. Acidic water, so ... Is it okay for frogs? I wonder because rain water has ph 7.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> Here I have a doubt... My RO water has a conductivity of 20-25 microsiemens, but a pH that oscillates between 6.6 and 6.8. Acidic water, so ... Is it okay for frogs? I wonder because rain water has ph 7.


 From Wikipedia" "The pH of rain varies, especially due to its origin. On America's East Coast, rain that is derived from the Atlantic Ocean typically has a pH of 5.0-5.6; rain that comes across the continental from the west has a pH of 3.8-4.8; and local thunderstorms can have a pH as low as 2.0.[79] Rain becomes acidic primarily due to the presence of two strong acids, sulfuric acid (H2SO4) and nitric acid (HNO3). Sulfuric acid is derived from natural sources such as volcanoes, and wetlands (sulfate reducing bacteria); and anthropogenic sources such as the combustion of fossil fuels, and mining where H2S is present. Nitric acid is produced by natural sources such as lightning, soil bacteria, and natural fires; while also produced anthropogenically by the combustion of fossil fuels and from power plants. In the past 20 years the concentrations of nitric and sulfuric acid has decreased in presence of rainwater, which may be due to the significant increase in ammonium (most likely as ammonia from livestock production), which acts as a buffer in acid rain and raises the pH.["

So yes, your pH is fine.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Look what I started. 

Ill be bringing home 5 gallons of RODI asap.


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## RobertN (Apr 15, 2006)

I am not a chemist….just an average hobbyist so I will explain using hobbyist language… LOL

1.	For keeping tads, 100% R.O or distilled water is not good. It doesn’t have mineral for the tads to grow properly. You should add a bit of tap water (de-chlorine) to R.O/Distill, may be 90/10 R.0 to tap ratio… Ideally 90-120ppm. 

2.	You can keep tads in your de-chlorine tap water. The hardness or high P.H should not cause any problem for the tads but something to keep in mind. For alkaline water (high mineral content and high PH), the waste , uneaten foods, dirty stuff..etc will cause ammonia and nitrite to raise. This is deadly for the tad. Keep the water clean by changing water often. For acidic water (PH below 7 by using R.O or distill water), the waste will be more forgiving. Ammonium ion is not toxic but at the high level will retard grow in all aquatic species.

3. For misting, either R.0 or de chlorine is fine. Alkaline water will leave some stain on the glass. Over time, this is hard to remove. R.0 water is better for misting. It is not true that acidic will eat away the glass…. May be it will take a couple hundred years before you even notice…LOL…

4.	When tads are raised in breeders’ tank, R.0/distill water is more forgiving than raising tads separately. The dirt (whatever stuffs in the viv) will add mineral back to the bromeliad. To be safe, I usually add a gallon of de-chlorine tap to my 20g water reservoir when I replace the R.O unit. After some months, I added a bit of chlorine removal, just in case.

5.	On a side note, do not use the product the lower the PH. This sometimes make the PH unstable. A PH swing (from high to low PH) will kill most of fish. Tadpoles are tough but …. do you want to take this chance. Peatmoss will absorb mineral and lower the PH naturally. You can use the bag (sold at most fish store) to hold the peatmoss or just let the peatmoss sink the bottom and skim the water off the top . Make sure that you use 100% peatmoss without chemical added.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

If you want to us straight RO for tads there's also a product out there called water re-mineralizer or something that I saw another member post about


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

...or you can simply add a mineralizer cartridge to the outlet line.

RO waters tastes terrible, so folks using it for drinking often plug one in - it contains calcite, so adds a small amount of calcium back to the water.


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