# Dying azureus



## krrks (Oct 1, 2018)

I've had a run of bad luck with my initial attempt at keeping darts. Six months ago, I bought three azureus from a local breeder. They were young but did well for about three months. Suddenly, two died within a week. The third seemed to do well thereafter but died today. I found the frog dead in the viv. It had been somewhat reclusive and less enthusiastic about food in the past couple of weeks. 

In the time since the first two deaths, I bought two additional azureus from a second source. One died within a couple weeks and never seemed to acclimate. The second is my lone remaining frog. 

Attached is a picture of the current viv. The first deaths happened in my first viv, a 29G aquarium. I transferred some of the materials into the current viv, which is a 24x18x18 Exo Terra. It's been set up about six weeks. I mist once or twice daily with distilled water or water from a dehumidifier. Average humidity is 94.1%, taken via an Inkbird thermometer and humidity meter. Temperature is 69-74F with an average of 71F.

I feed melanogaster daily. I dust with Rep-Cal Herpvite and Calcium, alternating daily. The supplements are six months old and have an expiration date in 2020. 

I'm happy to provide any additional info. Attached are pictures of the current viv and of the lone survivor. Thanks for any guidance you can provide.

Current viv
https://imgur.com/a/JvmU6Zx

Lone survivor
https://imgur.com/a/KVk3xqv


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

These are always tough. Sorry you are having this problem. Don't let it discourage you! 

So many variables could be causing this. 

- Did the frogs look to be skinny before they died?
- Did they die suddenly?
- How experienced is the breeder?
- How old are the frogs?
- Were they eating well?
- What are the temps in the tank throughout the day?
- What was the frogs' behavior before they died?
- Were they feeding well?
- What materials were used to construct the tank (it looks great, by the way)?
- How well-ventilated is it?

I have no idea if answering those questions will help with diagnosing your problem, but I am hoping it gives other folks enough information to track something down.

A couple of things off the bat: 1) the remaining frog doesn't look bad to me at all and 2) there is something about Rep-Cal that rings a bell about them not being complete supplements for dart frogs. I use Repashy products (see the numerous threads on this board that talk about supplementation - none that I recall recommend Rep-Cal by itself for darts). 

Hopefully, we can crowd source some sort of solution to your problem. 

Best of luck,

Mark


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## Hercrabit (Oct 6, 2016)

Just going to throw out a few things here. The temps look good but the humidity seems high. That looks like sphagnum moss in the substrate - I would get rid of it and add more leaf litter. Sphagnum holds too much moisture and could cause bacterial problems 
What materials were used in building the background? Perhaps it is off gassing.
What age was the frog when it was received? An older froglet (4 or 5 months out of water) has a better chance of survival. It looks extremely thin - was it that thin when received?
Sometimes it is a good idea to keep new frogs in a smaller "grow out" container to make sure they are eating well before placing in a larger vivarium where it would be harder to keep track of what they are eating.
Good luck and I hope your little frog pulls through.


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## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

krrks said:


> I
> I feed melanogaster daily. I dust with Rep-Cal Herpvite and Calcium, alternating daily. The supplements are six months old and have an expiration date in 2020.


I don't know if this is the reason you are experiencing deaths, but the Rep-Cal Herptivite is not a great supplement for darts. It uses Beta Carotene as its source of vitamin A, which darts don't readily convert. I'd recommend switching to a supplement that contains preformed Vitamin A. Most here, including me, recommend Repashy Cal+ and a rotation of Repashy Vitamin A used every 2-4 weeks. Supplements also need refrigerated and replaced every 6 months.

Sorry to hear about the deaths too. Keep at it.


Edit - I missed the part of Mark's post that already pointed to Rep-Cal. Sorry, Mark!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I can instantly see the botomsubstrate (all spagnum moss) is one of the the reason(s) your frogs are dead. This makes your tank too moist or wet for dartfrogs! Your frogs propably died due to the fact they have no dry spots what so ever. So when they have no dry spots , they will develop foot- or bellyrot and die from this or die from stress due to development of allot of flagellates or mold.

When Mark says your "left over" frog looks healthy, I could not disagree more. His belly has completely fallen in? I can't help but wonder why you say this frog is doing ok? Also the fact that all of his frogs just died,is a huge indicator your remaining frog has a 90% chance of dying... So, you say healty? The frog still remains in a toxic enviroment to this moment? I 'd say get him the hell out of this tank! 

This problem defenitly has nothing to do with you buying sick animals or something like that. I see these bad tanks alll over the internet and eventualy they all have the same problem with frogs dying within the first 2-(max)3 years after purchase.Unfortunatly this problem is the cold hard truth i learned in keeping frogs for almost 10 years now...

So once again i post this link ; https://youtu.be/gNlZLBpivMI
This shows you how tinctorius habitat looks like, i hope you are able to setup your tank looking like this. Also add some more shelter (nuts or coco shels) in your tank.

and mayeby the most important thing (all tanks should have) is what Hercrabit says ; add a big leaf litter to the tank!


I hope this is helpfull.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> I can instantly see the botomsubstrate (all spagnum moss) is one of the the reason(s) your frogs are dead. This makes your tank too moist or wet for dartfrogs! Your frogs propably died due to the fact they have no dry spots what so ever. So when they have no dry spots , they will develop foot- or bellyrot and die from this or die from stress due to development of allot of flagellates or mold.
> 
> When Mark says your "left over" frog looks healthy, I could not disagree more. His belly has completely fallen in? I can't help but wonder why you say this frog is doing ok? Also the fact that all of his frogs just died,is a huge indicator your remaining frog has a 90% chance of dying... So, you say healty? The frog still remains in a toxic enviroment to this moment? I 'd say get him the hell out of this tank!
> 
> ...


I like your conviction, Tijl  After looking more closely at the picture (zooming in more), I agree. I should have looked a bit more closely at it rather than sticking with the thumbnail image. My mistake - sorry about that. That frog is underweight. I also appreciate you calling out that mistake, Tijl. Good job.

As to the cause, the things mentioned above are potential contributing factors and should be addressed, but I am not as sure that these are the only things contributing to the death of the frogs. I have seen frogs thrive in poorer conditions than I see in this tank. All of the things mentioned should be addressed and Tijl is right to bring them up, but I think you should also be looking at food and supplementation.

Mark


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## krrks (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks for all the advice. In an attempt to synthesize everyone's remarks, I've come up with the following plan:

Transfer the remaining frog to a 10 gallon set up with one inch drainage layer, one inch Coco fiber substrate, then leaf litter cover. I'll include cork bark hides. Would plants be necessary in this temporary setup? I'll keep this tank going as long as needed to allow the frog to grow out. I'll switch to repashy supplements. 


I welcome and appreciate any comments on this plan re: the remaining frog. 

Now, on to the enclosure: I'll pull the sphagnum and add more leaf litter. The substrate is otherwise an ABG style mix. The background was constructed with bark pieces siliconed to the glass (GE 1). That cured for about one week before I moved on to the next step of stuffing the remaining gaps between bark with sphagnum. While the lone frog is living in the grow out tank discussed above, I'll continue maintaining this enclosure for the sake of the plants and moss.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I would not never use coco fiber or turf, frogs are able to swallow this while feeding. I would go as basic as possible if you can. just allot of leaves is more than enough!

check this out : 




I think a similar setup or curver box (with ventilation) is your best chance of getting the frog to recover.




one more piece of advice for your "main"enclosure : If moss grows good and fast, your tank is too wet!


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## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

krrks said:


> I welcome and appreciate any comments on this plan re: the remaining frog.


As far as I can tell, it sounds like you are on the right track.

One more thing I thought about: You said you are feeding daily. Are there often many flies left in the viv hours afterward or even the next day? If so, you are overfeeding. The problem with that is that the high humidity and the flies own grooming knocks off the supplement dust and bare flies don't have much nutritional value.

Now that you are in a QT tub where you can monitor better, try only dropping in a few flies at a time to make sure the frog is taking dusted flies. A piece of banana to act as a feeding station might not be a bad idea either.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I would recomend to feed springtails or put a small box of springtail in the tank. They are the best foodscoure to help your frog fat'n up again! Also, on the picture i can see your frog is a young frog. Mayeby i takes only a few fruitflies too fill up his stomach but a few fruitflies will not give him everything he needs!

I would not care about sumplementing your insect atm. Your frogs body will have trouble processing all the vitamines, minerals, etc... It will only put stress on his kidnies and liver. 

My advice : the frog should have acces to allot of springtails, every day a few aphids and or small fuitflies (drosophila melangoster) .
And the first 2 months no suplements on annything! And the advice dmb5245 gives of putting a slice of banana in the box or tank, so you insects will remain nutritional value and the frog knows where to find food.

This is how I (would) do it :



You can see I always add a box of springtails in my curvers or tanks, i also give the springtails a mushroom every week. This picture is photo of my hahneli froglett box


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

krrks said:


> water from a dehumidifier.


I would not do that. Dehumidifier coils are possible sources of leaching metal, which is almost certainly very dangerous to frogs. RO water (whether made yourself or purchased by the gallon) is safe.

I also would not use Herptivite on carnivores, since carnivores tend not to convert beta carotene to Vit A.

If I were in your position, I'd not add any frogs to that viv for however long it takes for your remaining frog to get better + at least 3 or 4 months, in case some pathogen is at play. If the remaining frog dies, I'd get it necropsied by a competent exotics vet.


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## krrks (Oct 1, 2018)

Thank you, again, for all the advice. Here is a photo of the quarantine/grow out tank (https://imgur.com/a/ALJxPWH). It's a 5.5 gallon aquarium with glass lid, leaf litter bottom, two pieces of cork bark that didn't come from the other viv, and a small dish that will be the feeding station. Just to be clear, the dish is not for water. Attached is another photo of the frog, through mist droplets, now in the grow out (https://imgur.com/a/gXK2vFB). Another picture of the frog's side, with stomach visible for those who were concerned about the frog's weight (https://imgur.com/a/84VqrGy). I placed a few fruit flies in the grow out, and the frog eagerly went after them.

I agree on the dehumidifier water point. I have dumped any I had lying around and will switch to distilled. I have an RO unit (because I also keep aquariums) but am concerned the RO unit does not filter out all chloramine. I use Seachem Prime to solve that problem in the aquarium world. Is this issue something any of you deal with in keeping frogs.

As for springtails, I have plenty in a couple of colonies. Typically I "drain" the springtails out of the colonized container to place in my viv. Because I have no absorptive substrate in this grow out tank, how would you suggest I harvest springtails for this enclosure?

And, for anyone interested, the main viv overhaul is underway (https://imgur.com/a/MkwB7fZ). I do plan to keep frogs out until this one has grown a bit.

I really appreciate the comments and insight. Please share any other advice you might have. I would love to spare this guy from my run of bad luck and return him (and other azureus, eventually) to the larger enclosure.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Great job with the quarantaine tank! I would just add some coco shell ar half a platic pot or something like that so the frog has a sleepingplace/ shelter/.... 

YouTube is full of instructional video's on springtail collection, so check that out id say... 

Realy good job on taking advice, i hope yoir azureus willmake it!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

krrks said:


> I agree on the dehumidifier water point. I have dumped any I had lying around and will switch to distilled. I have an RO unit (because I also keep aquariums) but am concerned the RO unit does not filter out all chloramine. I use Seachem Prime to solve that problem in the aquarium world. Is this issue something any of you deal with in keeping frogs.


Technically, the RO membrane itself does not filter out chloramine (which is a dissolved gas, not a dissolved solid). Removing the chlorine/chloramine is the purpose of the carbon prefilter.

If you have chloramine getting past the carbon prefilter (and you're running a CTA membrane, which almost all RO systems use), that chloramine will eat holes in your RO membrane after a couple weeks. I've done this.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Back in the day, Herptivite / Repcal was the standard. It's still good stuff, but there's been enough discussion in the past how a Vitamin A containing supplement with straight retinol is much better and more usable than beta carotene for frogs. I had spindly leg syndrome with mantella froglets until I used a Vitamin A containing supplement.

Metals from the humidifier are a possibility, as well as the tank being too moist, but could also be caused by contamination from chemicals used to build the tank that other people cited. I would consider taking the tank down and "reset" things, and use things that are less likely going to need to "cure" or off gas to avoid sick frogs.


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## krrks (Oct 1, 2018)

Rain_Frog said:


> Back in the day, Herptivite / Repcal was the standard. It's still good stuff, but there's been enough discussion in the past how a Vitamin A containing supplement with straight retinol is much better and more usable than beta carotene for frogs. I had spindly leg syndrome with mantella froglets until I used a Vitamin A containing supplement.
> 
> Metals from the humidifier are a possibility, as well as the tank being too moist, but could also be caused by contamination from chemicals used to build the tank that other people cited. I would consider taking the tank down and "reset" things, and use things that are less likely going to need to "cure" or off gas to avoid sick frogs.


Thanks for the advice. The frog is eating flies and springtails in quarantine, and I plan to keep the frog there until it's put on some size. I'm monitoring humidity/temp closely with a bluetooth digital device that logs the data on a computer. I am using distilled water only at this point.

As for the viv, I used only aquarium-safe silicone to attach some cork bark to the back wall and let it sit for a week before I did anything with the tank. All other materials were standard vivarium fare -- cork bark, sphagnum moss, terrarium-safe plants, and vivarium substrate. I did NOT use the expanding foam method that seems popular online. Does this seem risky?

Rain_Frog, I see you're in Johnson County. I'm one over in Douglas County. Nice to see a local frog keeper on the board!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Rock chalk! If I breed mantellas again I’ll let you know 

While a lot of people use expanding foam, there was some controversy a long time ago about fire retardants in great stuff that could be problematic. But without necropsies done, it’s hard to say whether or not frogs accumulate any in their tissues. I just use clay bentonite to hold cork up and some of my vivariums have had the same background for almost ten years so I honestly would vouch for clay backgrounds over polyurethane foam. The other possibility are contamination of the materials, but I have never rinsed or flushed sphagnum or coco peat.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

krrks said:


> I'm monitoring humidity/temp closely with a bluetooth digital device that logs the data on a computer.


Not relevant to your original issue, but to satisfy my curiosity: would you provide a link to the unit you use?


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## krrks (Oct 1, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> krrks said:
> 
> 
> > I'm monitoring humidity/temp closely with a bluetooth digital device that logs the data on a computer.
> ...


Inkbird Wireless Bluetooth Thermometer & Hygrometer Smart Sensor Data Logger with Waterproof External Probe/Magnet/Alert for Android&IOS Used for Food Storage Brewing Reptiles Instrument Cigar IBS-TH1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0774BGBHS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_dAzZCbVNE9XGS


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## krrks (Oct 1, 2018)

Thanks, again, for all the advice. My remaining dart appears to be doing well. It's active and eating melanogaster and springtails. The dart's stomach is now subtly but visibly rounder. 

I'm keeping the grow-out enclosure drier. Humidity typically registers between 80-90%. The leaf litter bottom remains dry throughout the day but for an hour or two after a daily misting. I included a very shallow dish of water in the enclosure in case it was getting too dry between mistings. I change the water daily. I found the dart sitting in the dish once, but I can't say whether that had anything to do with the enclosure air being too dry.

I'm keeping the main vivarium drier, as well. It has no inhabitants other than springtails and isopods. The plants seem to appreciate the drier conditions, as the rate of new growth seems to have increased over the past week.

All this makes me wonder if my main issue was an overly wet vivarium along with frogs that were too small to adequately monitor/feed in the larger enclosure.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

krrks said:


> Thanks, again, for all the advice. My remaining dart appears to be doing well. It's active and eating melanogaster and springtails. The dart's stomach is now subtly but visibly rounder.
> 
> I'm keeping the grow-out enclosure drier. Humidity typically registers between 80-90%. The leaf litter bottom remains dry throughout the day but for an hour or two after a daily misting. I included a very shallow dish of water in the enclosure in case it was getting too dry between mistings. I change the water daily. I found the dart sitting in the dish once, but I can't say whether that had anything to do with the enclosure air being too dry.
> 
> ...


The tank was defenitly too wet as i said before. Your frog sitting in the dish of water can be for a hundred of reasons. sometimes for shedding its skin, just for doing a number 1 or 2, to humidify itself... Frogs will always need some acces to a litle bit of water. Make sure to referesh this water every 2-3 days. I happy to read the frog is doing better. Don't worry about your enclosures beeing to dry. You can see in the clip of the pumilio juveniles how dry their tank is and they are not affected at all!


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## jrb2 (Sep 20, 2015)

I tend to agree with the idea there are so many variables that could be the source of the problem. I agree that using the water from the dehumidifier is not the best idea. If you don't have access to a reverse osmosis filter [that includes other chemical/carbon filtration] you may try your local aquarium store to see if they sell RO water. Stores that specialize in salt water usually do. If you still have an issue and notice the frog wasting after switching water supply its time to consider other things within the habitat. Did you purchase the substrate from a store specializing in frog vivariums? Is any of the leaf litter out of the yard and not sterilized? I've also heard that some sources of sphagnum moss are toxic to dart frogs. It could be the substrate contains a fungus or bacteria or parasite or virus that are killing the frogs. If another dies you should consider throwing it all away and try using materials from a different source. What was used to clean the tank? Some cleaners could leave long lasting residue. Lastly, have you been using anti-mite spray any where near the tank? [Anti-mite spray typically used to keep mites out of fruit fly cultures.] I've seen this kill snakes so I'm quite sure it can also kill frogs.


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## Cole (Dec 9, 2013)

As previously mentioned, I think there is some mis information in this hobby about misting. Your viv cannot and should not be sopping wet for dart frogs, there should be ample dry leaf litter for them to sit on. About 90% of my Exo terras viv lid is glass the other 10% is screen. This airflow helps the viv dry out a between misting. Also I only mist every 7-10 day, NOT everyday. They only time I'll do daily misting is entice breeding.


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## Wyofrogs (Sep 25, 2011)

I know that I am late to the party here, but I feel like it never hurts to add my two cents to the discussion of animal health and well being. Because lets face it, there are people who have successfully kept DFs in hundreds of different styles of vivaria. My back story is similar to a few others who have already thrown in their opinions, as that I have been keeping darts since 2003 as a punk kid(and other delicate exotic creatures much earlier. One of the biggest issues was the lack of information at the time. So it's great to now have an outlet where so much information can easily be passed through multiple sources. It can also be a bit problematic for finding a solution that works for you. 

This is how I would handle the situation you are currently in, some of the information will be repetitive but it all goes together.

1. Quarantine
a. in quarantine feed multiple small fodder that balances the diet without the need to initial supplementation. Research a supplement for frogs. 
b. keep the environment as sterile as possible. I use paper towel soaked in RO water, and a vining plant, or bromeliad that has been washed in a low concentration hydrogen peroxide(dilute 3% H2O2 10ml, per 100ml RO), then rinsed in RO. For a basking spot, I usually add a river rock or two that has been boiled and let to cool. Change the towel every other day. WEAR GLOVES!!!

I do not use anything that degrades in quarantine simply because nothing is around to breakdown and consume the funguses that may grow. 

2. Vivaria
a. decide wether or not to restart from scratch. I usually would to rule out any problems with mold, bacteria, fungus, algae, cyanobacterias, pesticides, noxious chemicals, ect. 
b. review all the products used in the system. Dried green moss usually is painted, and not great for living systems. Assess the size and quality of your CUC(springtails, pillbugs, worms, various other organisms for organic breakdown)
c. did any artificial objects start as a viscous liquid, gel, foam that didn't have enough time to cure. Is the cured product even suitable for enclosed humid systems. 
d. be patient. If your frogs were added to a freshly setup system there are chances that residual pesticides could have been on your plants. If anything was wild collected similar issues could arise with any unknown pathogens.

Unfortunately it becomes too easy to change so many things you are never really able to diagnose a problem. For what its worth, my opinion is too simulate the environment of our animals as closely as possible. My saltwater systems, freshwater systems, and terrariums all follow that philosophy. I have found that when the system is relatively void of organisms that breakdown wastes the animals are weaker. So there are somethings that I disagree with on this thread, but just know that everyone who has suggested something to you is giving you their opinion off of the successes that they have had. Good luck my friend, updates are greatly appreciated.


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