# Possible solution for hand rearing egg feeders?



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Ok this may be crazy but i was thinking. Instead of feeding with small drops of chicken yolk...has anyone tried caviar? Lump Fish or White Fish caviar is pretty cheap (under 10 bucks for 2 ounces). Uncolored caviar is pretty much straight from the fish to the jar. They also would be a very good size being alot smaller than sturgeon caviar.

Maybe This is foolish but i almost want to try it on some popa tads


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

Makes sense to me. I don't see why they could't feed on it. Have you thought about going to a tackle shop and getting some Salmon spawn? It's fresh from the fish and cheap.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Is it because the female isn't feeding them? If so, putting the tads in broms in the El Dorado tanks with a female in them might work


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## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

LOL, Im trying that rite now. I have five basti tads that were not transported out of eleven three of them are on wild caught trout eggs two are on yolks..

eggs are winning, tads are bigger they eat more often, it's week 4 i believe


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

ChrisK said:


> Is it because the female isn't feeding them? If so, putting the tads in broms in the El Dorado tanks with a female in them might work


I actually just threw in a couple of El Dorado eggs since they have 3 clutches going and possibly 11 tads somewhere in the viv. I figured they are too busy to take on the popas.

The tads had to be moved by hand becasue they were in a bad spot and were in danger of falling into the brom where they could not be transported. 

Not sure if they are feeding them or not. How long can they go without food?

flybuster, thats encouraging i think i might pull a few el dorado tads and try this out


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Very interesting topic. I too am curious if this method works. My Pums lay regularly and I know they'll get it right eventually, but would be interested in a alternative method to raising tads. Is chicken yolk better to feed to a brand new tad opposed to a further developed tad?


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

I never liked the chicken yolk idea for some reason. Just seems very unnatural to me. Given the right caviar be it white fish or salmon or trout i think it could work really well.

I never liked the idea of wasting a whole egg for a couple of pindrops of yolk


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Of course I know nothing of egg feeders but if I was to speculate I think the only thing that could be a problem is the salt content if using saltwater fish roe. Of course that could easily be remedied by using the eggs of freshwater fish... I do agree that it's a shame to waste a whole (delicious) egg for a tiny bit of yolk... I used to do the same thing for hatchling geckos (mix the yolk with some MRP) and eat the rest of the egg . Great topic though. I hope this theory proves out!


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Never thought of the salt content. Salmon and trout eggs would be better. My only problem is, My popa tads are pretty damn tiny. A Salmon or trout egg would be too big i think


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I would be careful with the trout eggs. I've heard that trout are potential carriers for chytrid.

*edit* I think I may have gotten tadpole predation confused with chytrid causes after doing a db search.


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> I would be careful with the trout eggs. I've heard that trout are potential carriers for chytrid.
> 
> *edit* I think I may have gotten tadpole predation confused with chytrid causes after doing a db search.


I did a search on this...i read that regardless if trout did carry the disease, chrtrid does not kill tads.

"While trout predation impacts the tadpole life stage, chytridiomycosis does not kill tadpoles. Rather it is fatal to frogs. Thus these threats operate in markedly different ways, including acting upon different life stages of the species. However, so far it has not been possible to quantify the demographic impact of either of these factors on Spotted Tree Frog populations or on any other amphibian species in the wild."

taken from Population impacts of Chytrid and Trout on Frogs - Zoos Victoria

Side note. Wiki search shows that the whitefish that is used for caviar is a freshwater fish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_whitefish


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

i have some frozen eggs i got from about 100 smelt i caught this winter. the eggs are about the size of a pin head, maybe too small for darts. if anyone local wants to try these your welcome to them.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I don't think there would be a discernable difference in saltiness of an egg between freshwater and saltwater fish. The interior of the fish isn't salty.

However, caviar is prepared by salting the fish roe. So any caviar would be salty (and delicious!).

Deb (caviar lover)


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

I was under the impression that the caviar went from fish to jar. Would soaking the caviar a bit help with the salt?

(i too love caviar...had beluga once, greatest thing ever)


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Soaking would help to remove salt, but I'm not sure if there would still be too much. Also the salt processing would give a somewhat "cooked" quality to the egg. Look for pastuerized caviar, it has less salt used in processing.

I'm not sure caviar would work, but if you had nothing else, it couldn't hurt to try. Worst case scenario, you'd still lose the tad. The best choice of course would be a surrogate parent or to sacrifice another frog's egg. However keep a pair of something going that is prolific with egg production, like tri-colors? I have a pair that lays around fifteen eggs each week.

Good luck with the experiment,
Deb


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i have fead fish roe to tincts and thumb tads before, they seem to do well on it, but i have experimented with egg feeders. Keep us posted.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Have you looked at Robs site? He is the one to talk to in regards to this...................


Welcome to Robbster.com Dart Frogs Page


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Yea i saw that site. i actually find it hard to follow. When my EL dorado tadsare read i think ill pull one or two and try this out


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I know that this suggestion is very dependent on your area but.... could you catch your own fish and freeze any roe you find? Of course that plan is also dependent on the season and your tolerance for eating plenty of fish . Do you think that they'd eat the tiny eggs of freshwater aquarium fish? There are some egg spawners that will breed pretty readily... I guess all of the options but caviar are pretty spotty. Good luck working it out .


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

You might try using salmon eggs instead. Salmon and trout are closely related, and you can buy cans of salmon eggs with no salt or preservatives added.


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

I want to try this with a couple of tads of mine. I'm going to order the salmon eggs and start with that.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Just make sure you buy the caviar ones for human consumption, and not the ones packed in oil for bait.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

basshummper said:


> i have some frozen eggs i got from about 100 smelt i caught this winter. the eggs are about the size of a pin head, maybe too small for darts. if anyone local wants to try these your welcome to them.


Shoot me over some Dylan. I have a pair of Solarte that lay eggs like crazy, transport but never seem to finish the job.

Might as well try 'our' luck at it, with a clutch, yes?


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## bgmike64 (Mar 16, 2008)

Arklier said:


> Just make sure you buy the caviar ones for human consumption, and not the ones packed in oil for bait.


Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to search more online for the right stuff. Feel free to throw a link my way if you come across one. Has anyone have any recent success using the fish egg method?


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Alot of times u can go to a local specialty food store. Somthing like Whole Foods (dont kow if they have these around you folks. Thye carry salmon eggs alot.

I have some El Dorado tads still in egg but ready to bust out. I have a feeling my female has not gotten the hang of transporting yet. Might try this on the 4 tads in there

http://www.xtremenorthwest.com/products.htm this is the only spot i found uncured fresh salmon roe. No Salt added, no oil. Problem is his availability is not always good. If anyone gets a hold of him tell me


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrGerbik said:


> I did a search on this...i read that regardless if trout did carry the disease, chrtrid does not kill tads.
> 
> "While trout predation impacts the tadpole life stage, chytridiomycosis does not kill tadpoles. Rather it is fatal to frogs. Thus these threats operate in markedly different ways, including acting upon different life stages of the species. However, so far it has not been possible to quantify the demographic impact of either of these factors on Spotted Tree Frog populations or on any other amphibian species in the wild."
> ]


Some clarification here.. while chytrid does not kill the tadpoles directly it does attack the only keratinized portion of the tadpole which is the mouth. This can interfere with or decrease the ability of the tadpole to feed. In addition, chytrid will readily kill metamorphs. 

There have been several discussions in a number of forums on using different eggs for feeding egg feeders including other amphibian species such as Rana pipiens, D. auratus, and Cynops sp.. the mouth structure of the obligate egg feeding tadpoles has adaptations for feeding on thier own eggs but due to differences in membranes in different species, feeding may be inhibited and anedotally better success was reported in using other species eggs when the membranes were removed from the eggs and the yolk was offered. 
The membranes on fish eggs can be tough (hence thier ability to be used as a fish bait on a hook) and this may be an issue. 

Ed


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## jelly_shrimp (Apr 17, 2009)

Marinarawr said:


> I know that this suggestion is very dependent on your area but.... could you catch your own fish and freeze any roe you find? Of course that plan is also dependent on the season and your tolerance for eating plenty of fish . Do you think that they'd eat the tiny eggs of freshwater aquarium fish? There are some egg spawners that will breed pretty readily... I guess all of the options but caviar are pretty spotty. Good luck working it out .


My cory cats (corydoras) breed like once every 3-4 weeks and drop like 100-130 eggs about the size of....the thickness of the lead in a normal pencil (NOT mechanical) a wooden graphite pencil, or 1/16" for those unaware of the thickness. I don't know if thats enough, or if they freeze well, they usually just become fish food (eaten off the sieds of the tank because I can't raise them I'm raising 4 tho)


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## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

Two of my tads died this week, one on yolk and one on trout eggs not sure why but i did notice a air bubble in a couple of the tads. I tried switching one to azureus eggs but it has not yet feed. There must be a large nutritional difference between the trout eggs, yolk and the basti eggs, The tads in the tank "being raised by parent" are much larger than the ones on trout eggs, and they are larger than the one on yolk. I guess we will wait and see... Im not sure but wouldent salmon eggs be to big 1/4 to3/8 seems huge for a little tad, the trout eggs im using are maybe 1/16?


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

I definitely couldn't see why feeding caviar would work. I was a chef for a long time and I don't know if you know this but those caviar eggs are cured. Cured meaning they sat in a good amount of salt for a long time. I don't know as far as the health of the tads but all that salt cannot be good for them I couldn't imagine. As far as chicken yolks, isn't that what they say spindly leg syndrome was a result of? I'm not sure about the chicken yolks but I've heard they're a bad idea.


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

Soaking would help to remove salt, but I'm not sure if there would still be too much. Also the salt processing would give a somewhat "cooked" quality to the egg. Look for pastuerized caviar, it has less salt used in processing.



Yes soaking would remove a very little amount of salt but not nearly enough. Besides, curing is going to denature all of the protein in the eggs hence, it may take any of the nutritional value in the egg. Besides that I have never heard of non cured eggs sold anywhere. It would probably be a health issue being that you cannot even sell bone marrow in certain states in the U.S. . Like I said I don't claim to know if it would work for egg feeders but I wouldnt be very optimistic unless you could harvest other eggs being uncured or unpasteurized. Good luck though. If you find success let me know I have almost all pumilio's in my collection


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would have been very surprised if it had worked given the mouth structures and the problems noted on other sites with offering other types of amphibian eggs. 

Different species of amphibians have different numbers of membranes covering the eggs and unlike some other obligate egg feeding anurans (like some hylids) where the eggs are swallowed whole, dendrobatids have to pierce the membranes of the egg to access the nutrients contained within the egg. Obligate egg-feeding dendrobatids are adapted to feeding on their own eggs and one possibility I haven't been able to eliminate in via the literature as of yet (it might be there and I just might have missed it) is whether or not the eggs offered by the female have different membrane structures to facilitate consumption by the tadpoles. 
Fish eggs tend to have fairly stiff membranes (which is why you can pierce them with a fish hook and cast them without them totally rupturing (even fresh and uncured fish eggs) which are much tougher than the eggs from the frogs. This is even before the membranes are cured.... 

I would have also been very surprised to find that the fish eggs were not significantly different nutritonally from dendrobatid eggs. 
With offering azureus or other dendrobatid eggs as a supplement, based on the anecdotal reports, you will get a much better acceptance if you remove the outer membranes and then offer it to the tadpoles. (based on those reports, you might have better success if you get a dissecting microscope). 

Ed


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## flybuster (Feb 27, 2009)

The tads in viv all did great, I have one tad that is still alive"hand raised" that shows no sign of leg developement appears to be about the size of a 3 week old tad. Switching between trout and azureus eggs. It's not looking promising but i will continue trying as long as it will. I fear now if it does morph it will not be healthy enough to survive


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