# 9 X 40 Gal Breeder Monstrosity



## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Hello All. 

New here. 

Starting a build. Should take a year to get done. 6 months of planning, 6 months to build. I want you to join me in this journey. 

Basically I keep vittatus in a 30gal now that a friend who just passed was keeping and I inherited it. I have caught the frog keeping bug. 

I just bought a crazy set up. It is a custom steel 3X3 modular racks for 40G Breeder tanks and 9 breeder tanks. I got it and tons of extras(20 aquarium filters, ect) for $200 USD. I know crazy cheap. He just was done with it and needed the space. I only have possession of 8 of the racks but he will get me the 9th in time. One of the tanks is cracked but not so bad it shouldnt be fixed by using it as the background side. I will be selling the aquarium and reptile stuff to recoup my money so the tanks will basically be free. 

My plan so far is to do tons of research. Post pics of the monstrosity here. 
I want to do a central misting system like a mist king. Custom backgrounds in each maybe using different methods. Plant them out. Ect. 

What I need is your help with advice on the following:
What would you do with 9 40 gal breeders?
How to do substrate on the cheap, where to buy, how much to buy. I will have the luxury of bulk. 
Lighting on the cheap? Remember 9 tanks. Wow
Misting system. What would you use. 
Where to buy stuff for backgrounds on the cheap in bulk. 
Any other tips advice ect. 

With your help we can make an awesome setup. 
Thanks Reef Frog.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Cheap glass tops as I have none


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

To complete 9-40g breeders it will be anything but cheap.. Where are you located?


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm in southern Illinois. Will be relocating in a few months hopefully somewhere with a local frog shop. Cheap is a loose term. I used to do saltwater tanks. I know what I am getting my self into. Replace cheap with somewhat cost effective. Haha.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Southern Illinois is around Carbondale.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

It can be as cheap as you want it to be. It's only an expensive hobby if you make it that way. 



TheCoop said:


> To complete 9-40g breeders it will be anything but cheap.. Where are you located?


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> It can be as cheap as you want it to be. It's only an expensive hobby if you make it that way.


Think I'll use hydroton for the drainage layer and make my own ABG( unless Josh's frogs does a stellar bulk deal), OFE seems to be the way to go. Backgrounds out of great foam. Shouldn't be too expensive there. I need to do some math(when done ill post) to see how much of each item I'll need. Any estimates?

Glass tops hopefully a glass shop will treat me right. $10 each puts me at $90.

Rough guess on the mist king is 300. 200 for the initial set up. Extra 100 for nozzles,tubing. Will one nozzle a tank be enough?

Lighting is a bugger. Boughten factory lighting is way too much. 50-75 each. Looking for a DIY solution. Shop lights with good bulbs, the gutter trick I saw on here somewhere. I'll take any suggestions. 

The critters is where the real cost is. Frogs aren't cheap but I got time to seek out deals. 

Plants. The thought is buy a few big packages and plant lightly. Give time for growth. 

Overall. I'd like to get a few trios with proven pairs. Keep a tank or two for froglets per species. 

Like I said. I have time to make sure I'm taking good care of the ones I got and solve problems to improve my husbandry skills. I expect a year will pass before I can buy frogs.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

you can save on the charcoal by using natural hardwood charcoal from somewhere like walmart. you will need to break it into smaller pieces which is very messy. look for a source of mulitple 2 cubic foot bags of peat, tree fern, bark mix, and sphagnum. shipping is what kills you on price. for lighting i would do diy leds using a cheaper type of emitters if you are tying to keep the price down. also you can go to a metal scrap yard and find aluminum to use as the heat sinks. there are some nice driver dimmer combos being diy made that are a good deal for powering multiple sets of lights. to save on plants keep an eye out for people here selling lots of cuttings. you would be amazed at how quickly you can harvest them from one viv for another. love to see the project come together.


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## WeeNe858 (Sep 13, 2010)

What would I do with nine 40 gallon breeder tanks you ask?

I'd take 6 of the tanks and use cork to create a terraced background for more surface area. Different looks in each tank and these will be where I keep my collection of unique larger growing plants and frogs. The other 3 get split into 20 gallons and they house the thumbnails and smaller more delicate foliage. 

Mistking central system with one nozzle per 20 gallons of tank space. 

Drilled for bottom drains.



DIY T5 High Output lighting for the time being.

I'd make my own clay substrate and top that off with lots and lots of leaf litter. 

Custom glass tops with circulation system.

only if they were mine though...


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

what would i do?? Throw them puppies on there sides, get a sliding door kit for all 9 of them and make them into verts. Keep some thumbs and pums and enjoy life. Drill the top in each corner for 2 misting heads and drill the bottoms for drain plugs... Its my dream atleast.. I would love to have 3 or 4 of them lined up next to each other to give an impression of a 6 foot long by 3 foot tall enclosure.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

This is 6 of the tanks. 8 of the racks. The two plastic totes are full of goodies. I have to get 3 more of the tanks today. Those three tanks are full to the top of goodies as well.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

bringing it home.






another shot of the tanks.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

What would be cheaper. False bottom or hydroton. There is a weight issue of getting the tanks in the top rack so false bottom wins there. But cost? Any ideas. Egg crate is 12-14 per sheet plus screen material. Any idea of cost for a 40B worth of hydroton?


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

I'm going to keep a running total on cost as I go. 
200 for start up stuff. 
50 to move it. 
250


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Reeffrog said:


> What would be cheaper. False bottom or hydroton. There is a weight issue of getting the tanks in the top rack so false bottom wins there. But cost? Any ideas. Egg crate is 12-14 per sheet plus screen material. Any idea of cost for a 40B worth of hydroton?


I've used hydroton in my setups, although it works great it is so much extra weight. It usually runs between $5-10 a gallon depending on where you get it from. However, I don't think they make hydroton anymore so most places no longer have it. Most sell leca now, which are almost identical anyways.


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## zcasc (Dec 8, 2009)

Salutations from the north!

Hydroton will likely be more expensive. However, you can try to find more cost-effective solutions for a drainage layer, such as lightweight lava rock for landscaping (assuming you purchase in bulk). 

I would definitely start out small (i.e., establish one tank) to get this stuff down. It becomes pretty laborious at times to provide the required food regimine for lots of frogs (not to mention, 9 x 40 gallons worth of frogs!) 

That being said, I myself am horrible at being patient with tank set-up, and if you dropped a tank off at my door I would likely have turned it into something by the end of the day. So I wish you the best of luck...haha.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

I'll def be building the tanks(background substrate plants ect) promptly upon moving but buying frogs slowly. Not even sure what all species I want yet. Except a few. This really feel into my lap both the hobby and the build. I used to do reefs and learned a slow and steady lesson early on. Won't be repeating that mistake again.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Ill b buying frogs slowly. As I want some of the tanks to house proven pairs. Slow and steady.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Got all the tanks. Gonna stack them 2 high as in the photo 2 wide on one side a very in the middle than another set of four on the other side


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Initial budget
Let me know if I have too much/little estimated. I have no idea how much great stuff and silicone I'll need. Thinking of doing a tank or two with a different background method. It added up to more than I hoped for. But slow and steady, right. Budget doesn't include frogs or micro fauna. Plant cost is estimated low by light planting plus time = more plants,I hope. Really need some guidance. If you think I should change something an estimate in cost change and a link of where to get it would be nice. 

False bottoms 12 egg crates x$12 = $144
Screen $25
ABG/sphagnum buy individual from joshs frogs $216. Might be cheaper to make myself in bulk. Id like to get extra for isopod cultures. 
Leaf Litter 9x$5 =$45
Great stuff pond $4 per can. 9x4 =$36
Silicon 9x$6.5=$58.50
Mistking $200
Nozzles ect $150
Lights. Shop lights w/good bulbs. 8 lights 8x15=$120. Bulbs 8x8=$64 total $184
Coco fiber have three. Need 9 total. $40
Glass tops 10x9= $90
Driftwood $150
Plants $150-250
Finishing stands $100
Total approx 1700


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Thinking of doing a 10 gallon I got in the deal to get an idea of how it goes and see how far silicone and great stuff goes.


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

I get my Hydroton at a local Hydroponics store and it $31 for 45-50lbs.. Goes a long way.m


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## spyder 1.0 (Aug 27, 2012)

Maybe you should go with biological filter media instead of the eggcrate?

Also you might save by using tilebond 3 mixed with eco earth and spagnum moss and skip the expensive silicon.
Plants will cost you a lot more depending on what kinds you want. Where is your supplier for driftwood?


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

What are u referring to as a bio filter. Hydroton? What will be the advantage?
I don't have a driftwood supplier. I figured that number as a guess from my aquarium days, the aquarium stuff is high. I won't use much of it except maybe in a tank or two. 
Ill have to look into the titebond method. Thanks to all who have helped me so far.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

There are cheaper materials then hydroton. Maybe if you ask moderator Scott what he use's he might be nice enough to tell you. I think it is easier and far cheaper to use then hydroton.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Picked up some great stuff and titebond3. Going to give that little 10 gallon a tru on the background for experience sake.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Reeffrog said:


> Initial budget
> Let me know if I have too much/little estimated. I have no idea how much great stuff and silicone I'll need. Thinking of doing a tank or two with a different background method. It added up to more than I hoped for. But slow and steady, right. Budget doesn't include frogs or micro fauna. Plant cost is estimated low by light planting plus time = more plants,I hope. Really need some guidance. If you think I should change something an estimate in cost change and a link of where to get it would be nice.
> 
> False bottoms 12 egg crates x$12 = $144
> ...


It is difficult to estimate costs when you haven’t built a viv before. To me, this looks like a bare bones estimate to be honest, but maybe you are going for very simple tank designs. I’m not sure where you are located, but I cant imagine being able to plant/hardscape that many tanks for your estimated cost. Even though all the tanks combined only add up to 360 gallons, you will have a lot more substrate and background square footage to cover compared to a single large display. There is just way less open unused space in long/thin tanks like this, meaning more surface area to cover.

Also, your foam/silicone quantities will vary greatly depending on background thickness, intricacy, how many sides you plan of covering, and if you plan on carving it to a desired shape. I would double, or triple your estimate on foam and especially silicone though. Considering you are using the yellow great stuff foam, it takes a lot more silicone and many more touch up applications to hide the ugly color.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

GRIMM said:


> It is difficult to estimate costs when you haven’t built a viv before. To me, this looks like a bare bones estimate to be honest, but maybe you are going for very simple tank designs. I’m not sure where you are located, but I cant imagine being able to plant/hardscape that many tanks for your estimated cost. Even though all the tanks combined only add up to 360 gallons, you will have a lot more substrate and background square footage to cover compared to a single large display. There is just way less open unused space in long/thin tanks like this, meaning more surface area to cover.
> 
> Also, your foam/silicone quantities will vary greatly depending on background thickness, intricacy, how many sides you plan of covering, and if you plan on carving it to a desired shape. I would double, or triple your estimate on foam and especially silicone though. Considering you are using the yellow great stuff foam, it takes a lot more silicone and many more touch up applications to hide the ugly color.


Thanks for the advice. I am aware of how difficult it can be to do an estimate on a project like this. If the yellow GS is that hard to cover and uses that much silicone I am going to have to consider getting the black version.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

I am considering a few changes to the plan. 
1 clay substrate
The down slide to this is it seems very time intensive. ESP for the amount I will need. Which looks like from my math I'd need to do Pumilos recipe times 40. 
2 black not yellow GS
After the last bit of advice it might be cost effective. 
3 titebond instead of silicone
Any thoughts on this being a good way to go seems like it would be more cost effective and less messy. 
4 using glass to divide a few of the tanks into two twenties
On number 4 would I be ok to put in eggcrate then divide it. Or should I do it from the start or scrap that crazy idea all together. I really do value everyone's help. If you have any advice please toss it up here.


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## Nath514 (Jul 8, 2012)

Reeffrog said:


> I am considering a few changes to the plan.
> 1 clay substrate
> The down slide to this is it seems very time intensive. ESP for the amount I will need. Which looks like from my math I'd need to do Pumilos recipe times 40.
> 2 black not yellow GS
> ...


One thing to keep in mind is that the black GS foam is 2-3 times more than the yellow and generally much harder to find locally. Only place I have found that sells it in stores is Ace Hardware. What I have had success with is using the black foam for water features where I want to be extra careful about leeching toxins and I use the yellow for the rest of my foaming needs. You I have found that it not to hard to cover up the yellow as long as you are careful about putting enough silicon down.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

I was shocked at the price difference. But the black was still doable, if it makes it MUCH easier or will saves on adhesive. 7.50 vs 2.50 at Menards. Ill find out how I feel about the covering process this weekend when I do my test run 10 gal.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

If you wait a few days I can show you how I do my tanks as I am doing a build journal and will be siliconing tomorrow. I use the yellow GS and just use BROWN silicone with peat moss. I rarely get any of the GS showing and the little that I do, just doesn't matter to me as it gets covered with plant growth a few months in, anyway.

You really should just relax and enjoy this as what you plan on doing sounds awesome with that many vivs. Rushing them without understand what frogs will go in each is also a very bad idea because what if you love basti's and Azureus? Not only our they different in how the react to the landscaping but they also require the tanks to be set up completely different as one is an obligate and the other is not. Plants also very different and as someone else said no way that cost will be that low once you get plants.

What I would do is build one up and design it the best you can and use it as a grow out tank for your plants (Which won't really take long) and as your waiting on the growth decided on frogs and how you want to design because by the time you are done your plants will be ready and you can get the frogs you want rather then impulsively buying like most beginners.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

VenomR00 said:


> If you wait a few days I can show you how I do my tanks as I am doing a build journal and will be siliconing tomorrow. I use the yellow GS and just use BROWN silicone with peat moss. I rarely get any of the GS showing and the little that I do, just doesn't matter to me as it gets covered with plant growth a few months in, anyway.
> 
> You really should just relax and enjoy this as what you plan on doing sounds awesome with that many vivs. Rushing them without understand what frogs will go in each is also a very bad idea because what if you love basti's and Azureus? Not only our they different in how the react to the landscaping but they also require the tanks to be set up completely different as one is an obligate and the other is not. Plants also very different and as someone else said no way that cost will be that low once you get plants.
> 
> What I would do is build one up and design it the best you can and use it as a grow out tank for your plants (Which won't really take long) and as your waiting on the growth decided on frogs and how you want to design because by the time you are done your plants will be ready and you can get the frogs you want rather then impulsively buying like most beginners.


Best advice yet. Thanks. I am not starting on any of the 40s til July. Gonna save some cash between now and then. Plus there will be a move between now and then. I look forward to seeing your methods. I think I might still do some smaller quarantine/plant grow out tanks before . To get a few things down before the big build. The amount of money/time(6-7 months in the research phase only) I'm about to drop I want a boss set up. I might even do better lighting, who knows. 

In this planning the set up, I agree I MUST research the frogs as well. I notice "beginners move too fast" a lot in these threads. So I really am trying to this right. If it says two per a tank, that's how many there will be. If there is a viv style they need, ill do my best to do it. 

In a way it's in memory of a dear friend. I got his tank(no frogs) when he passed. He was a great frog keeper. I already moved too fast with frogs if u know what I mean.







It was neglected for a month while he was in ICU. I'm sure it was stunning before. So Iam getting practice with frogs in a viv that is up an running. 
Yes I already made beginners mistakes. Bought frogs.







Couldn't resist. Good deal at joshs frogs. Fruitily fail. No bad outcome. Just coulda held off on frogs for a few months and done better. 

I hade pretty good success with reef aquaria. But I had time before I had money. Worked a pet store got a good discount. At a different pet store now. Could have similar results in frogs. Here's the ninety I was doing.







The 54 was stunning. I just wanted to go bigger and did, got too big for me to handle with school. I am going to go so far as start culturing micro fauna before I get frogs. Gonna do this hobby right. Ill go thru many iterations of budget before it gets going. 

It's going to be fun. Keep helping me folks. We can do something cool here.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Also looking at everybody's methods including urs venom.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Is $50-$75 per tank in plants close/feasible?


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Any feed back on splitting the tanks. I know itll be frog specific. Does anyone do this successfully.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Reeffrog said:


> Any feed back on splitting the tanks. I know itll be frog specific. Does anyone do this successfully.


Another advantage is getting groups putting them in a 40. Then as pair is identified putting them in a twenty.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Frogs I def want and will be researching first

Tincs
Azureus
Patricia or cobalt

Leucs
Group of bumblebees in a 40

My vittatus group in a 40

Auratus highland bronze

Thumbnails
Any of the red and blue varieties
And or ,imitators, vanzolinis 

Maybe some pumilios

Just a rough starting idea. 
Start with the easier species and work my way up to more difficult ones. Get them as they are available locally if I end up where I want to(Indy)


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Here is my thread as I build it. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/90242-gone-while-26g-bow-front.html#post797334


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Would two jungle dawn LEDs over each tank would be sufficient lighting? I really don't want to slap a bunch of shop lights over them. It'll be high dollar but I can start with a few tanks and replace the rest over time. Thinking if using the gutter trick that Pulmilo uses.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Rough sketch of a split tank. Thinking of splitting two of them. The airline house drain in the diagram should be below the level of the eggcrate.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Dont know much but i do know that i just spent about 130$ planting my 18x18x24 exo terra. Maybe a total of 5-600$ including 3 froglets.

Cool idea but i agree, go slow. And once you have a viv set up with some frogs in it youll be able to sit back and think better and be a bit more patient. You can see a difference between my first and second viv. The second looks alot more planned and natural in comparison.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Got two 20g high tanks to make verts out of for practice. They should be good in case I get a breeding pair someday. 

Also sold most of the fish junk out of tanks today for $150. So I'm in the tanks for 50. 

One of my buddies is a great wood worker. He took a look at them and is going to help me build the vert stand and the canopies.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Did a practice tank over the past few days. The tb3 is curing. It's unlikely that ill do that again. I didn't enjoy the process. The GS was a pain on all respects. I think it looks good. Ill know more when it's done drying in a few days. I think the cork mosaic is the way ill go on the 40B. I was going to use a few different methods but I think the cork mosaic is better for me over all. The cork isn't too expensive especially when purchased in bulk. It's quick. Seems better for the plants. Doesnt eat up floor space. Less weight. Ect ect. Idk maybe I'm jumping ship too soon. Ill try one out on my next practice build and see how it goes.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Fwiw the tank I did was a 29 I got for 17 bucks cause of a scratch. Thin layer of black dap silicone, almost a tube on the back and sides. Made a false bottom w egg crate and vinyl window screen. Mixed TB3 and Eco earth for color and applied. Over the corners I put individual pieces of reptibark to represent trees(can't be seen in any pics). Coated in more Eco earth and patted down bc I felt it needed it. Good experiment learned a lot. Will do several more before working on my displays.






































Hope it works out good. Will eventually use this for breeding or grow out. Gotta make glass tops and some ABG(I will do clay i think for the 40B tanks) then I will get a few plant cuttings in it to let them grow out.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

New budget w cork mosaic backgrounds. I'm about to order 5 lbs so I can make a better estimate later also after my next practice tank can estimate sphagnum better. 

False bottoms 12 egg crates x$9= $108
Screen $25
Clay ?$300?
Leaf Litter 18x$5 =$90
Cork 45 lbs 320
Silicon 9x$5=$45 
Mistking $200
Nozzles ect $200
Lights. Shop lights w/good bulbs. 6 lights 8x15=$120. Bulbs 8x8=$64 total $184
2 kilos sphagnum 90
Glass tops 15x8 = $120
Vert front 75
Driftwood,vines ect $400
Plants $500
Finishing stands $200

Approx 2800

Frogs extra. 

Going to hide PVC pipe in false bottom for manual drainage thru a syringe.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Looks like I can get about 60 lbs of cork for 260 from another supplier. Should come close to doing the job. 
Rough estimates based on ppl getting 4 24x18x24 exos or 5 29 gallon, both backs and sides out of a 30 lb carton. I'm doing roughly double that based on surface area of the backs and sides of the tanks. The surface area for the large exo,29 vert and 40B horizontal are similar. If I need to I'll buy a few extra tubes/ flats to round it out.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

My 29. Tb3 not yet cured.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

Mist king suggestions? How many nozzles, what type. Where to place them.


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

The TB3 on my practice build keeps cracking, any suggestions. I've been adding more glue and Eco earth.


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

Reeffrog said:


> The TB3 on my practice build keeps cracking, any suggestions. I've been adding more glue and Eco earth.


I've never had it crack on me, did you apply it to Great Stuff and if so did the GS have enough time to properly cure? Also how thick did you apply it?

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Reeffrog (Dec 9, 2012)

I assume I put it on too thick, it's still squishy in the middle. I made a mix out of it and Eco earth( soft serve consistency) and spread it on. The cracks were along the edges if my "trees" on the side and down the middle. I believe it to be user error.I repaired it w silicone and more Eco earth. The repair looks good.


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