# leuc or azureus for first frog? also setup plans and questions



## Kaimetsu (Feb 8, 2012)

So I'm planning on getting into dart frogs soon and i want to run some of my plans past everyone here so i can get some input. I already keep mostly snakes and tarantulas so i have some experience with setups, for instance i've worked with greatstuff backgrounds before. Coming from such low maintanance pets as snakes and spiders i've been a little intimidated by dart frog requirements.

I recently setup a 5.5 gallon for an emperor scorpion with a hydroball drainage layer and ecoearth substrate, an exposed water area, and lots of pothos which looks awesome and has constant high humidity. This plus my recent research on this forum is making me feel like I'm ready for dart frogs.

My plan is to use either a 10 gallon i already have or buy a 20 gallon high, with a background of greatstuff with ecoearth siliconed onto it, then either the 10 or 20 gallon care kit with LECA, substrate, leaf litter excetera and the plant package from josh's frogs. Once it's all ready I'll buy an isopod and springtail culture and two dart frogs from the next white plains reptile expo and put them in.

So here are my biggest questions/concerns.

1. Which frog to get? I definitely want either two D. leucomelas or two D. Azureus. The other common beginner frogs don't interest me as much. I'm leaning towards leucomelas even though i find azureus way more attractive, they are like beautiful blue gems, but as i understand it they are less bold and more expensive though. My main concern with the Leuc is if their call might get annoying in the living room, but everyone says it's a pleasant sound and I'm used to my moms parrots at her house, so maybe it's not a big deal.

2. 10 gallon or 20 gallon tall? The ten gallon is cheaper for me but I'm not sure if it's tall enough for the plants like small to medium bromeliads. Is it worth it to invest in the 20 gallon tall?

3. What kind of lid should i use and how should i obtain or make it? i used a plexiglass lid with two two inch vents on it that i bought and had cut at Loews for the 5.5 gallon tank i setup, but it's already starting to bow in so I'm guessing it was a bad idea. From what i can tell most people on here use glass lids cut in two pieces, a front and back half. So where can i buy it and have it cut from? Also how much ventilation should i use and what should i use for it?

4. How do I plant broms and vines? The plant packages from josh's frogs come with bromeliads and vines, I think i've figured out how to plant broms from this forum but I'm still not sure about vines. If I'm right i think the thing to do with broms is to put a hole in the greatstuff background with a nail, then push the tail end of the brom into the hole, then use a paperclip bent into a U shape to hold the brom upright, then remove the paperclip after a month or so. Is this the right way to do it? With vines i have no idea what to do though.

5. What lighting to use? I already have a flourescent fixture from an old fish tank that still works, can I use this and what kind of bulb do i need?

6. Should i order my flies online and try culturing them for a while without frogs or can i just buy them at the expo when i get my frogs? The petco near me usually sells fruit flies so i don't think i need to worry about fruit fly mistakes as much as i normally would.

Sorry for the stream of questions and wall of text but i've been thinking about this stuff for weeks and studying these forums and these are some of the main questions that have been running through my mind.


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## FrogNub (Aug 5, 2009)

Hello and welcome to the Dendroboard!

I will try to help you out a little bit:

1. & 2. leucs and azureus are two great starter frogs. These are medium sized that would enjoy the larger 20g size enclosure. Once you put in the background, drainage, substrate, plants, 10g quickly shrinks in size.

Personally, I had my viv in the living room and was having issues with temps due to drafts and the general size of the room had a large temperature gradient. You are also going to want to avoid direct sunlight hitting it (most living rooms have windows). I can't comment on the leuc call.

3. Plexiglass is a no no due to it bending under heat and humidity. You can get glass cut at a local glass shop or sometimes Ace Hardware. Just google 'glass cutting' and a city/town near you. They will appreciate your business.

There are also a few different sponsers that sell the parts (hinges, handles, etc.) and 'conversion kits' that are used to make a regular aquarium into a vertically oriented potential vivarium. There are also a few DIYs on the boards for creating a lid.

There are a lot of threads discussing this. Check out the 'Parts & Construction' section.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-diy-window-screen-ventilation-step-step.html

4. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/519-mounting-epiphytes-cork.html

5. fancy lighting is mostly unecissary for most of the basic plants people put into their vivs. Don't go overboard. Here is more info that you will ever need =) :

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/65603-guide-vivarium-lighting.html

6. IMO buy flies 2 months in advance of when you want to get the frogs and experiment. Try your own media, start making weekly cultures. Same with isopods/springtails.


Enjoy!

-Justin


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## jharris08 (Dec 26, 2011)

i just got into darts about 3 months ago and I have leucs and a couple tincs....either frog is a good beginner species imo...think about whether in the future you want to keep multiple frogs in your viv or just a pair...tincs do best kept in male/female pairs, while leucs typically do well in groups


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## Equidoc2013 (Nov 28, 2011)

Leucs vs. Azureus was my dilemma when I first started in the hobby too! Now I have Leucs AND Azureus, and 4 other Tinctorius morphs lol. From what I've heard that's pretty much the way it works. My leucs and my azureus are always out and never flee when I enter the room, so I wouldn't choose one over the other based on boldness. Leucs do better in a group so if you want more than two frogs in your tank I'd pick them. I tried putting 2 males and a female azureus together and the males fought immediately so I took one out. Some people can make it work but it's probably luck of the draw. Definitely go with the 20 gallon. It'll be worth the extra money and you won't end up regretting it. As for the glass lid, the Pet Supplies Plus near me sells All-glass aquarium lids to fit most of the smaller size tanks, and a 24" lid for a 20H was about $17. Having glass cut at a glass shop can be really expensive depending on the shop. I'm not sure if other people plant vines differently, but what worked for me was sticking one end in the dirt and tacking the vine against the background with staples. The vines quickly put out fingers and grab the background and then you can remove whatever you used to tack them up there. The Daylight 6500K bulbs from Walmart work great for me. As for fruit flies, I would also recommend practicing culturing them for a month or so before you get frogs, and ALWAYS make more than you think you need. You never know when you're gonna have one crash, although this hasn't happened to me yet. Hope this helps! And what you said about Azureus being like gems made me laugh, because I said the same thing! I've always loved polished rocks and azureus look like pretty polished rocks with legs!


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## glass frog (Dec 19, 2011)

all I can say is I love my group of luecs even more than my azureus


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Both are beautiful frogs with big personalities. 

Either would appreciate the space of a 20g high vs a 10g, IMO. I find that my Leucs do more climbing of the scenery. I got glass cut at Ace Hardware for 8 bucks, including the glass. 

IMO, go with the frog that you want, of the two. You can't go wrong either way. Unless, of course, you plan on a small group of frogs. In that case, go with the Leucs, as they do well in groups vs Azureus.


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## warlock (Jun 7, 2012)

which 20 gallon is ok?! long or high?


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

IMO azureus will be much more bold, and get the larger tank, as others have already stated once you start adding backgrounds & plants the tank gets smaller quickly


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## penaltyboxpunk (Apr 8, 2012)

I went with leucs for my first frogs!!!!Love them very bold they are out and about all the time.Like people have said the bigger tank would be nice when you add plants,background and drainage you will lose a bunch of space.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

warlock said:


> which 20 gallon is ok?! long or high?


For leucs, you would want to go with the high. They are known climbers.

For azureus, the long has the added advantage of more floor space, but it's much harder to find plants which will do well with the limited height. I actually like the taller 20s better. Tincs will climb and it's much easier to plan the tank.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Both azureus and leucs are both equally extremely bold. I don't know which one is more expensive, but I can imagine azureus being the more costly one being the fact that there blue.  

I have azureus, and I love them. Funny thing, I was stuck between azureus and leucs too! I went with azureus and I love them. My next darts are going to be leucs. It doesn't matter which one you choose, you can always get the other next, and that's what I'm doing!

The 20g for sure. After all said and done with false/hydroton bottom and plants, the ten will be around 5-7 gallons of space left, whereas the 20 will be 15-17 gallons. The 20 would make the frogs much happier.


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## Kaimetsu (Feb 8, 2012)

So I ended up never getting into dart frogs two and a half years ago when I made this thread and I forgot I had even made it, between being poor two kids and buying a house things have been hectic, but i'm considering it again. I came on here planning to make a post asking all these same questions again and I found this old thread.
here is the tank i'm planning to use for azureus, its about 12 deep by 24 long by 16 tall. I got it from the nature center I do presentations at they had some old ones they didnt need.
My phones not letting me post the pic for some reason anyways I already have a simple egg crate bottom put together. I left space in the front and sides to fill with hydroton to hide the egg crate. The false bottom is about two inches deep. I have other questions but my most immediate is what kind of silicone is safe to use for backgrounds? I used to use ge2 black silicone from home depot for tarantula enclosures but I remember some controversy when a mold inhibitor was added to this product. Anything safe that I can order from amazon?


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

They were my 1st and 2nd frogs. You can't go wrong with either. It really comes down to which one appeals to you more. I for one love the call of my luecs more than any other frog i have. My wife and kiss like them the most also but i think that's because we have had them the longest.


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## MWAInverts (Oct 7, 2014)

For silicone, simple = best  

I usually buy the cheapest 100% silicone I can find because it doesn't have any fancy stuff added to it. It's just pure 100% silicone. Once the smell wears off, it's fully cured and ready to go!


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## slimninj4 (Dec 31, 2013)

I like Leuc. I had both but I think the Leucs are more interesting to watch.


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