# First venture into PDF's



## Guest (Nov 1, 2006)

Hello all, i thought i could introduce myself a little before my first post on Dendroboard. My name is Brandon, i'm a sophomore Biology major/chem minor (pre-veterinarian) at Wittenberg University (Springfield, OH), though i'm originally from Indianapolis, IN. I've been in the herp world for quite a while and have kept and/or bred numerous species of geckos (mainly rhacs and aussie species), lizards (beardeds, several chameleons), and snakes (mostly morelia, but have experience with many others). However, before i left for college i inevitably had to sell my collection. Believe me, after keeping animals for soo long it's a strange feeling coming home at night and not having to mist or feed a single thing!

Anyway, after going without them long enough, i'm getting back into herps. At first i was thinking a pair of snakes, something relatively small that could fit in my dorm room. However, after talking to my advisor (a comparative anatomist/herpetologist), my interest began to peak in PDF's
(he has several vivariums set up in his office. I'd always thought they were fascinating, but never really considered keeping them. After giving it
much thought, i decided i would like to try something new. Dart frogs don't take up too much space (they will be kept in a college dorm room for the rest of my sophomore year), are relatively easy to maintain, and are absolutely beautiful...so i decided i'm going to take the jump into them!

Being no stranger to the herp world, i'm pretty confident in my caretaking
abilities. However, i do have a few general questions about the frogs and
setting up their vivarium:

- I was thinking about starting with an 18" cube exo-terra vivarium (with glass inserts to cover the screen top). How does this sound for someone's first vivarium run? 

- For the background, i was planning on using cork bark panels
-or-
gluing coco fibers or something similar to the background. I want it to be something relatively easy to maintain but also very aesthetically appealing. I would like to be able to mount epiphytes or broms to it as well.

- I'm still undecided on the substrate type i would like to use. I'm either going to go with a full blown false bottom (eggcrate, clay pellet drainage layer, then finally coco or peat moss cut with orchid bark for quicker drainage), or do the false bottom thing minus the eggcrate layer (i don't intend on having a water feature for my first viv). Any suggestions?

- i would like to have a moss carpet...but have been reading mixed opinions as to how well the moss actually thrives. Are there any species that thrive at the bottom of the viv and can handle frogs walking around on top of them?

- for wood, i was planning on using run of the mill driftwood, or possibly ghostwood.

- As for lighting, i'm pretty clueless there. I know i need 6500K and full spectrum, but besides that i don't really know. If it matters, i hope to order a plant package from Antone for this vivarium. Other than that i don't know much about vivarium plants.

- Finally, the frogs....I am leaning towards starting with a small group of D. leucomelas or a D. azureus. Since azureus seem to do better in pairs, i would probably try to get a pair to start with if i choose that species. I absolutely love their color, but on the other hand leucs are really pretty too, plus from what i gather they have a rather pleasant mating call. Any tips here? How about other possible species? I want to go with bolder frogs. As of now i'm leaning towards the azureus.

-Breeding isn't my main goal, but if it happens i definitely won't mind 8) 

Thanks for bearing with my arduously long post! Any help/tips/comments are greatly appreciated. 

-Brandon


----------



## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Welcome to Dendroboard!  

My first viv was an 18" exo-terra cube...they work well, the only trouble is that you might have to fly-proof the doors but its not hard to do :wink: 
Background ideas sound good. I just used the foam background that came with the tank and siliconed and then put coco onto it..

For drainage you could use leca (a.k.a. the clay pellets) or you could use gravel, or, for probably the best drainage, a false bottom.

For the substrate covering, you could use magnolia leaves...they look nice and last a long time...
I just don't have good luck with moss...  (although some is starting to spread on a piece of wood in my tinc tank  )

Ghostwood, cypress pretty much any wood that won't rot with a lot of water, will be fine for a viv...You may see some fungus growing on the log, but it's not harmful and should go away in a bit...

I'm not so good with the lighting aspect...we are going to have to get a technician or something to respond :wink: 

Azureus and Leucomelas are great frogs, although I don't have any myself I have heard they are bold and good for beginners...There is also the option of some Tinctorius, they are big, bold and colorful.

Other then that it seems like youv'e got everything under control!

Good Luck!


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2006)

thanks for the reply! Do you happen to have any pics of your 18" cube? Also, how should i go about FF proofing the door?

Tincs are pretty cool too, i've been considering them as well. What morph (or locality? I'm not sure how their divided.) would you reccommend?


----------



## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Well you have certainly done your research, I have to commend that ^_^ Oh and welcome to the DendroBoard!

I can't recommend tincs enough, my New River is beautiful (and I LOVE their coloring a LOT more than azureus and they are sometimes cheaper too) and she is pretty bold too.


----------



## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

I have an ok pic of it...I'll try to get better ones later :roll: 









It houses four auratus...

Not all of the exo-terras have gaps, but if you do have a big one then you could probably put some black electrical tape up along the back edge of each of the doors...or in between the doors if theres a gap there too... You also might be able to put some clear silicone along the back edges of the doors and then take off any silicone that gets in the way.

Tinctorius are divided by morph, you were right :wink:
I have some Alanis myself...but all tincs are pretty easy as far as darts go...It kinda depends on your color preference. Blue, yellow, orange, they come in all kinds of colors.

Just make sure, when you do start your viv...you post pics!!


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2006)

@ black_envy: I've been lurking on this board for about two weeks now  . Do you have any pics of your new river tincs? I'm pretty unfamiliar with the different color morphs besides cobalt and citronella.

@ Anoleo2: great looking viv! Do you like the cube, or if possible would you have rather went with a taller model (say, 18x18x24)? As far as the FF proofing goes, i remember reading about the black tape and silicon. Silicon seems messier but sounds like it might look nicer in the end.

BTW, i had no idea there were orange tincs! that sounds kinda cool actually  

Once i get everything sorted out, i would like to do a mini journal documenting my viv in progress just for kicks. I'm hoping to purchase all the supplies this weekend at the big expo in Indianapolis.

two more quick questions...depending on what age the frogs are, can they go straight into the planted viv, or do i need to keep them in some sort of temporary housing to start off with? Also, will miner-all and herptevite (sp?) work for darts, or do you guys use a specific powder supplement designed for them?


----------



## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Well, I like the cube but my alocasia is WAY to big :evil: and it's growing a new leaf... :evil: 

Yeah there is a morph called Giant Orange...they are more yellowish, but still really colorful!

If they are from the same person then they can go straight into the viv I'd say...but if from different people you might want to quarantine each of them in seperate containers for a while to see if there are any problems.

I use a mixture of Rep-Cal Herptivite and Rep-Cal Calcium with Vitamin D3 to dust my fruit flies...

BTW, thanks for the compliment!


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Welcome! I don't have any experience except with leucomelas, but I can tell you I love them! Their call is out of this world.









This is a picture of one of the juveniles I just got from Josh today.

By the way, I have the same _Alocasia_ as Anoleo2 and I too wish I had a much taller viv. Get the tallest viv you have room for! =)


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2006)

@ wax32: that leuc is beautiful! How old is it? It's really a tough decision between the two species. Can you compare their call to something i might be familiar with?


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Maybe a month or 2 out of the water, I'll have to ask Josh. They sound like a canary!

Mist King has collected sounds: http://www.mistking.com/resources.html

Here is one of my adult males taken a couple of days ago, he was almost as small as the one on my finger this past June:









Drowt is my biggest male. He almost died from dehydration when I first got him. I let their temporary container get too dry.


----------



## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Beautiful leucs, BTW!  Really bright yellow!

Yes, they have a very nice call.


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Thanks Chris. =)

Mine call a few times a day. On my days off when I am still in bed when their light comes on, I lay there and listen to them say good morning. It is very relaxing.


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

@ Brandon:

I asked Josh and sounds like the little frog on my finger is about 5 weeks out of the water.

Here is a shot of the other frog I got today, it's a sister (I hope) of the littler one, but from an earlier clutch, it is about 7 weeks out:










And here are both for comparison:


----------



## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Um I do, but the picture wasn't taken by me, it was taken my xfrogx as my frog used to belong to him, so as long as he doesn't have any problems with me posting it, heres my frog:










I did take some pictures of her at my house but they are all on my dad's computer and I don't really have a way to get them onto this one because my e-mail's broke. 

And not to offend xfrogx's photographing skills :wink: but his picture does his old froggy no justice, she is so much more beautiful in person lol


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Brandon,

First, WELCOME to the dendrobaord!

Second, I LOVE the Exo Terra's, my son and I have three in fact. We have a small, medium, and the XL Exo Terra. 

IMHO, I think the Exo Terra would be the way to go for you as a student. There are MANY nice vivs out there that have utilized many different construction methods such verticals, horizontals, home made vivs, etc,,, BUT you being a student the Exo Terra takes a lot of the work out it for you. I guarantee you don't have a lot of "free" time to sink into building a viv from scratch seeing how you're a student. That's just my opinion.

I did what Anoleo2 pretty did. IMHO, I would forego the false bottom and just do a gravel or LECA base. The smaller (12"x12"x12" & 12"x12"x18") Exo Terras don;t have real high front dams to them, so by the time you have your water depth, egg crate, screen, gravel or LECA, screen, then soil substate you're gonna be up to the top, if not over, of the front vent system.

Moss hasn't worked for me either to well. That's another experiment down the raod for you, worry about getting the viv built first.

The 12"x12"x18"H would be nice for two PDF's and not blow your wallet to bad as a student.

You idea of getting plants from Antone is a GREAT idea. I've only heard POSITIVE things about this guy.

As for any modifiactions to the Exo Terra, here's a link that was on the board just a little while ago, you'll see my opinion: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =exo+terra

Here's a pic of my 12"x12"x18H Ex Terra's background right after it was done and not planted yet. I just used the background that came with it and covered it with silicone and my mix of Coco Bedding/Jungle Mix/Jungle Earth.









Here's a pic after it was just planted for about 3 months.









Here's one of my tincs (Surinam Cobalts) happily hunting.









If you have any questions, shoot me a PM or even call me if you like. I just helped another guy (krowley) from Arizona build his first Exo Terra recently.

Good Luck!


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Oh by the way, we have to talk about _*morelia's*_!

I love the Irian Jaya Carpets and wouldn't mind having one someday. Let me know if you've had experience with them!


----------



## Guest (Nov 2, 2006)

hey all, i just got back from studying for a huge chem exam tomorrow (kill me now!) Anyway, Sorry for the mass response in one post, but it's late, i'm tired, and i have to get up in about 4.5 hours to study...you guessed it, more chemistry! (i'm DEFINITELY more of a bio guy) Thanks again for the responses and such a warm welcome to the board!

@ wax32: Your leucs are sweet...the pics and descriptions of their calls are really tempting me. I also like the fact that i could have a small group rather than just a pair of azureus (i dont think they do well in groups?) Thanks for the link btw.

@ black_envy: nice tinc! I'm still leaning primarly towards leucs and azureus, but now i'm at least going to research the different tinc morphs a bit more just to make sure i don't overlook them.

@ Dartman: Thanks for the reassurance on the exo-terra, i'm almost positive i'm gonna go with the 18" cube. Like you said, i definitely don't have much "free" time. I didn't think about the depth of the substrate damn--so now i'm thinking i'll just go with the LECA base. What do you use above that? any special mix? I'm hoping to still give moss a try--from what i gather everything except java moss needs high light and lots of drainage. We'll see how it works! :wink: 

Your exo-terra looks great! I really like the way you have the wood siliconed to the background (that seems like a pretty popular trend). I was originally planning on going with the cork bark, but now i think i'm gonna go with coco-fiber/wood/silicone. What kind of wood and silicone did you use? Also, i can't really tell from your pic, did you plant/mount any broms to it? Finally, do you have to drain your water area, or does it maintain itself pretty well? I actually wouldn't mind a small "water feature" such as that..

Expect a PM as soon as i get the exo-terra!

As for the morelia, carpets in general are great! I've primarily kept JCPs and scrubs, but all of the carpets are pretty similar. IJs have a great disposition and don't get nearly as large as coastals or jungles. They are a great "first morelia."




BTW, Antone, if you've read this post, i would love to hear your thoughts on plants and lighting for an 18" cube exo-terra! Or anyone else, any insights or experiences would be awesome.


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Brandon,

The 18" cube is my next purchase! That'll do you good!



> --so now i'm thinking i'll just go with the LECA base. What do you use above that? any special mix?


I've been using just plain old natural aquarium gravle for my drainage course, about 2" - 2 1/2" depth. LECA is definately lighter weight, I just don't have a local supplier of it. A lot of guys go with LECA when you get into LARGE vivs. Either will work.



> What kind of wood and silicone did you use?


I use G.E. Silicone II in Bronze color. Brown works, too. I will say there's a BIG contraversy about using GE II Silicone now because they now market it with "BioSeal", which is suppose to be a mildew inhibitor. Its been said that the BioSeal additive has always been there just never marketed. Gotta love marekting tactics! I've not had any probelms with it nor many others around here. Do a search on silicone and you'll find other options.

My soils substate is a mixture of a Coco Bedding (brick, expanded in water in a 5 gallon bucket, some Jungle Mix and some Jungle Earth. I had started out just using Coco Bedding, but I felt it would get too water logged and not drain very well. So, on my next viv I added Jungle Mix to it. That was step in the right direct because Jungle Mix has some "woodier" chuncks of wood added to it, whicg help in drainage. Then on the next viv I used Coco Bedding/ Jungle Mix/Jumgle Earth. The Jungle Earth had a larger chunkcs of wood added to it so I have even better drainage now. This is just my opinion. Many guys just use coco bedding.

The wood I used on that viv was a Malaysian (sp??) driftwood. I've been buying my driftwood off of "pastorjosh" http://www.joshsfrogs.com or off of ebay from a lady called "driftwood-mary". BOTH are great people to deal with. "pastorjosh" hangs out on here and is a register vendor.



> Also, i can't really tell from your pic, did you plant/mount any broms to it?


No, I have no Broms in this viv. Sorry! :>)



> Finally, do you have to drain your water area, or does it maintain itself pretty well?


At first I had to use a Turket Baster to draing it down and change the water because it would either get stinky or the frogs would drag coco bedding mix into it and make it all muddy. I'd have to maybe change it once a month for the first 3-4 months, then over night the sticky water went away and the frogs packed down the soil mix from walking around all the time hunting food. I suspect the smell went away because of a natural bio process kick in, you can appreciate that one.



> Expect a PM as soon as i get the exo-terra!


No PROBLEM! I'll look forward to hearing from you!

As for lighting, I'd keep it simple. Again, that's my opinion. I'd buy a clamp/dome lamp from Home Depot 8 1/2" and buy a Daylight spiral fluorecent screw in Bulb (try to get around 6500K +/-) from Home Depot. I get the higher wattage bulbs, can't remember the exact wattage, I'll have to look tonight at home. The total light package will cost you around $16-$18 Total! Again, some will say this os good others will say use compact fluorescent lifts, some will regular fluor's ..... all seem to work they just all vary in cost and sme cost ALOT!

Thanks for the morelia information!!!!


Now, get studying dude!


----------



## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey all, 

I was thinking about doing a custom vert conversion, but after reading this post and further reading on exoterras, I think I might get one too (I'm a senior college student and just about to finish school). however, I'm looking into getting a larger one the 24"x24"x24". I'm planning on getting 4 CR G&B auratus for it. What do you guys think?

Brandon, Sorry for jacking your post!


----------



## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Dartman: Nice viv! Looks great!

Spydrmn: That sounds like it's a good idea...I expect to see pics of that viv too when it gets done! :wink: 

Brandon: I don't know if you can see it in the pic, but I have a pond in there and I just use a turkey baster every so often to suck out the water and refill with new..... In the 18" cube I used leca, which is lighter then gravel...but I personally like the look of the fine gravel (which is what I have in my tinc viv) better.


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

> I'm looking into getting a larger one the 24"x24"x24"


I've seen the 2XL and the 3XL Exo's and they are cool looking, but hard to find for sale it seems. I have one place kind of locally that sells the 2XL, but not the 3XL. I saw both for sell at the Hamburg Reptile Show and I think Black Jungle might have had them for sell at MARS 2006.

As far as LECA vs. Gravel, I prefer the look of gravel due to be more natural looking, BUT I have not built any LARGE vivs where weight starts to be of concern and LECA should most likely be used.

Keep us posted!


----------



## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

dartman,

Yeah, I haven't seem the 2XL or 3XL anywhere online that ships. Blackjungle has them, but they don't ship  . Does anyone know where I can find these either at a pet store or online that ships?


----------



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

spydrmn12285 said:


> dartman,
> 
> Yeah, I haven't seem the 2XL or 3XL anywhere online that ships. Blackjungle has them, but they don't ship  . Does anyone know where I can find these either at a pet store or online that ships?


I haven't seen the larger ones anywhere local. I was lucky enough to grab mine at the Mid Atlantic rep show. To be totally honest I wouldn't trust anyone to ship the 3XL exo. Its almost a lock its not going to arrive in one piece.


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Brandon: thanks, and you're welcome! =)


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2006)

@ Dartman: your advice is practically building my vivarium  Is your water area blocked off from the LECA pellet false bottom? (i.e. is the pool entirely separated from the rest of the substrate) I think i might try a small water area (with a baster on hand), still undecided on that. How are your temps with your light setup? Also, i'm so used to animals actually needing direct exposure to the bulb, it is OK to put these sort of lights on the glass, correct?

So far here's the list:
-18" cube exo-terra
-custom glass top inserts
-LECA Pellets (false bottom)
-Coco fiber (ground mix and back wall)
-Orchid bark (ground mix)
-Bronze G.E. Silicone II (back wall)
-Driftwood for ground and back wall(ghost, cypress, or Maylasian)
-coco hide
-plant package from Antone
-java or pillow moss
-light fixture (still undecided)
-6500K light (still undecided)
-digital thermometer/hygrometer with probe(s)
-light timer
-possibly small temp. enclosure(s) for frogs(?)
-1.1 or 0.0.2 D. azureus OR 0.0.3 (or 4) D. leucomelas (AGHH! DECISIONS!)

Hopefully i'll be able to pick most of this stuff up this weekend at the show, save the plants and frogs. Actually, if i find a really good deal or really good looking frogs this weekend, i might possibly get them and put them in a temporary setup until the main vivarium is completed? This seems pretty common. If anyone has any links of pics of a temporary setup, that'd be awesome! I was planning on using some sort of small container, coco fiber substrate, and some pothos cuttings if i go this route.

@ spydrman12285: where are you located? My advisor i mentioned earlier has a group of four G&B auratus he is looking to get rid of. they are great looking frogs and they have produced tons of tads.


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Brandon,

Sounds like you're collecting your research and data quite well.

Just a few comments, your set up will not be constructed really utilizing a "false bottom" . False Bottoms usually use egg crate (plastic ceiling lighting panels with square holes in it) that is elevated above the water. You'll be using LECA, screen, then soil mixture.

To answer your pond/water question, the water in the pond will at the same level as the water that runs into/under your LECA. You want to have your LECA deep enough so that the water doesn't wick up through into your soil mixture. I'd try and keep your water level at least a 1/2" from the top of your LECA.

Although I've never done it personally, I've seen people use Sterilite (sp?) containers for temp housing for PDF's. I've seen the shoe box size used. I'm sure you're familiar with these since you kept snakes as many folks use them in snake rack systems.

Keep the questions coming!


----------



## Guest (Nov 3, 2006)

thanks for the clarification on the false bottom stuff.

This may be a dumb question, but how good of swimmers are PDF's? I've been seeing lots of really elaborate and seemingly deep water features in the vivariums posted on this site...can/will the frogs drown in too deep of water?


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Hi Brandon,

Welcome to the board. Looks like you've had most of your questions answered....

Here is a comparison of New River Tincs versus Azureus....as you can see they are similar but not identical....

Bill

New River

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/ ... 7_2729.jpg

Azureus

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/ ... 2_4220.jpg


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Regarding the look of LECA...when I use LECA I also use some aquatic soil or gravel on the last inch or two toward the exposed outer edges of the tank. You don't see the LECA, just the gravel. 
There's another expanded clay pellet called Alifor(sp). It does not have the same uniform shape as Hydroton and looks better up against the glass, IMO.

EricG.NH


----------



## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Brandon,

Please check your PMs. 

Thanks!

Chris


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

brandon said:


> ...how good of swimmers are PDF's? I've been seeing lots of really elaborate and seemingly deep water features in the vivariums posted on this site...can/will the frogs drown in too deep of water?


Not very good and yes they can drown. Make sure they have easy egress from any water feature you make.


----------



## Guest (Nov 5, 2006)

The Terrarium is well on it's way! The substrate is totally set up, the background is drying, and all the other supplies have been purchased, save the plants and the frogs  Hopefully i'll be able to post some pictures tomorrow, but if not, i hope to finish setting the vivarium up by thanksgiving break (plants and all).

I'll tell you what, that 18" exo-terra looked huge, but after 2" of terra-lite, 2" of coco fiber, two large ghostwood pieces, plus the background....it fills up fast! I think i may end up going with a 10 gallon plant package, depending on how many plants actually come in them.

BTW, for the lighting i ended up going with compact fluorescent...i purchased a 23 watt spiral bulb which is supposed to equal 100 watts of a regular bulb i believe...will thisbe too hot for my tank? I may end up returning it for the 13 watt (= a 60 watt regular bulb).

I've also got my frog choices narrowed down (again)....azureus is out and it's a tie between an unsexed group of D. leucomelas and sexed pair of D. tinctorius "new river." The tincs definintely got my attention in person...any thoughts? 




BTW, nice meeting you bill!


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Sounds great, can't wait to see it.

That's the bulb to use.

You know my pick as for frogs... although new river tincs are pretty. I think if I was going to do tincs I'd do powder blues or patricias.


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2006)

hopefully i'll be able to post a picture tonight--i'm back at school, but my brother is supposed to take some pictures of the terrarium for me. Everything is in it and set up now except for the plants and the frogs. I'm hoping the tropical moss will establish itself pretty well over the next two weeks before i'm home again to put the plants in  

I ended up going with the 23 watt compact fluorescent, it's not too hot at all, but it is super bright. As far as plants go, here's what i'm thinking:

various broms (no clue what species though)
some creeping plants
jewel orchid
maybe a fern or two?

I'm going to go with a 10 gallon plant package...i still can't believe how quickly that 18" cube filled up!


----------



## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Brandon,

Sounds like you're well on your way! :lol: 

The 23 watt bulb, is this the spiral screw in type with a dome light fixture?

On the plants, yes ...... the viv's do fill up quickly and room does get tight. Post some pics, consult Antone, and you'll be set for your plant package I'm sure.

All the Best!


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2006)

yep, it's a spiral compact fluorescent that fits into a incadescent socket.

pics are coming, as soon as i upload them.

They do my progress NO justice. My brother snapped the shots but neglected to turn the light on or open the door, i'll go ahead and post them anyway.

Brandon


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2006)

Here are the pics (sans light):

The piece of ghostwood on the floor actually acts as a terrace, the back third of the terrarium is sloped up (via the wood) 3-4 inches higher than the front. I'll see if he can take some pictures today with the lights on. Excuse the ugly thermo/hygrometer, i'm just keeping it there to sorta calibrate the terrarium.





























(the towel over the top is just to keep humidity in until i get the necessary inserts for the screen (i plan on using overhead projector paper instead of glass, thanks for the tip black jungle).

what does everyone think?


----------



## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

just curiouse, why did you say that Azureus where out?


----------



## Guest (Nov 6, 2006)

they aren't totally out really, i just really liked the new rivers when i saw them this weekend. They get a little bigger, have larger spots, and have a really cool fade of dark to light blue on their back. so if i get a pair of blue frogs, i'll probably go with them.


----------



## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

Your viv is really coming along! Hopefully the moss will take off in there. 
It's gonna look even better with all the plants! :wink:


----------



## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Lookin' good!


----------



## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

where did you get the drift wood? is it ghost? price? what about the moss?

Thanks


----------



## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

What fantastic wood! I can't wait to see this planted!


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

wax32 said:


> brandon said:
> 
> 
> > ...how good of swimmers are PDF's? I've been seeing lots of really elaborate and seemingly deep water features in the vivariums posted on this site...can/will the frogs drown in too deep of water?
> ...


PDfs are terrestial frogs, but that doesn't mean they're not good swimmers. Some are better than others, true, but they can swim. Auratus come to mind as I've seen many, juvis to adults, sit submerged in water for a good deal of time. 

A funny example of this is at MWFF when I was helping someone vend. We were looking through his 2.5g tanks to see who was left. We found at least five Auratus that were under pieces of wood with their whole body and head under water. We'd nudge them out from under the wood just to watch them promptly go right back under it. 

I know Patty has a Galact that has a funny story behind her. Something to the extent of the frog swimming across a wide water/deep feature to the side of the tank and climbing up it to excape out of a tiny hole. I think the frog is named Magellan because it's apt swimming skills. 

Yes, PDFs can be drown, but just becasue there is water in their tank doesn't mean they're at risk. There's alot more to it than that, which usually involves dominate tank mates.


----------



## Guest (Nov 7, 2006)

spydrmn12285 said:


> where did you get the drift wood? is it ghost? price? what about the moss?
> 
> Thanks


I picked up almost all my supplies (including the wood) from Black jungle @ the indy show this past saturday. It's ghost wood, and i think those two pieces ran me $18 dollars a piece (they were considered "large," i ended up cutting some pieces off of them so they'd fit in my terrarium properly). The moss, also from black jungle, is tropical moss from Hawaii. They said it fairs really well in high humidity environments and should take off pretty quickly if given the proper lighting and draining....fingers crossed it does well it there.


----------



## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Re: swimming. The darts I've had experience with can all swim efficiently enough not to drown as long as there is an egress back to land such as a sunken log and/or floating aquatic leaves. Since I wrote about the excursions of Columbus, my escaping, swimming galactonotus, I've added three more younger galacts to the three old spinsters' tank, and they are almost all now swimming occasionally. The new guys goosed up activity considerably. I recently discovered eggs on one of the floating aquatic leaves, so have at least one male in the new group, and today, I found four of them, including Columbus, climbing the glass on the other side of the deep fish pond section, with Columbus in the lead, as if it were some kind of elopement. (Let's run away to the kitchen sink and get married.) She checked out her old escape hole, now well covered, before plunking back in the water and going to shore. The rest of them eventually figured out for themselves how to get out of the apparent predicament of hanging on glass over deep water. They regularly sit on the glass dividers, which are moss covered and separate the various depths of a kind of river run with short falls, to catch the fruit flies that float down toward them, and occasionally lap up floating fish pellets. This last action is a first, I've never observed until today. I assume the pellets may appear alive and moving, and the frog I observed catching them may have learned they taste good. 

I'm more concerned with shallow waterways, where an aggressive frog may bully and hold another under, possibly drowning it. They can't do this if they tumble into deep water. They are both going to have to end the battle and swim for shore.


----------

