# Seizure ? yet again!



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ok has anyone actually had a success in reviving a frog that began suffering sz's ???

I have a subadult frog. New arrival less than I week. Was doing fine. Looked great on arrival, eating, climbing, active all the usually froggy stuff. I couldn't have been happier....

I open the lid to feed the daily rations of dusted FF (Herpevite/Reptical from Patrick) and the thing convulses, turns upside down and lays there all stiff for 5 minutes. It revives, flips over but it clearly is stunned, clumsy, slow....

Now I wait.... I guess....

Can they survive? What does one do besides wait....? 

It didn't eat any of the dusted FF this time but of course it is in no condition right now....but was eating fine, daily....

signed....Frustrate and Concerned in NH


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I think your real problem is the eating and not the seizures. If you can get it to eat it will eventually do well in the hands of someone who dusts his frogs and will recover. If its not eating well...... I have had good luck with Metronidazole from Dr. Frye IF used right away.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Well David, that is the challenge isn't it.....getting a sick animal to eat....
The last thing I ever want to do when I have a bad cold/flu is eat...

I can only hope tomorrow will bring some recovery. I have never seen or had problems with a sz in a dart frog before, but dendroboard is littered with "seizure, convulsions, heart attack ?'s and the like" so it obviously isn't an uncommon complaint/symptom.

The common threat is "calcium deficiency". Well I can't imagine that is the issue hear but possible....as I said it was eating dusted FF yesterday and this little bugger came in as fat as can be from the breeder, just 6 days ago. Still is quite a plump bugger.

It's color now ain't so good, so who knows what is going to happen with it....

I was hoping to hear some "oh yeah, I had this happen to some of mine and they just bounced back and were fine the next day...blah.." reassurances....but you just don't hear that on this board. The usual story ends with " well it was too late for my little froggy...."  

If it doesn't eat tomorrow then I might get despirate. Would hate to bring up the force feeding frenzy again, right :wink: 

Can these seizures or whatever they are be just a passing symptom? ever?

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So you are using Reptical and Herptivite not Rep-cal and Herptivite??

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Sorry Ed, to clarify both are the Rep-cal products. Calcium with D and Herptivite. I got from Patrick and have recently reordered a fresh supply "just in case". I thnk these are the products most seem to be using on this board.

The frog has only been in my care for 6 days so I am not sure what to think about possible electrolyte/mineral deficiency. Looked very fat and healthy upon arrival (and still does except for the seizure).

Didn't look too bad this am but still sluggish when moving, clumbsy.

Have you seen animals recover fully from these episodes?

Shawn


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Shawn,
Actually I have had frogs with seizures and they have done OK if they eat. I personally am not of the opinion that it is ONLY calcium deficiency based. I believe it is stressed based as well and I think if left alone and eating you will be OK. Actually your situation seems to me to very hopeful.

Also this may seem crazy BUT one of the greatest times I see frogs go into seizures is when they are relatively new and have been changed to new environment or shipped and they are in the hands of someone who dusts versus someone who may not have or was not regular, and then the seizures start after a dusting. just a personal observation and it may mean nothing. Sometimes I have seen the PDF reject the dusted ff and spew it right out. Again this is just a personal observation but it seems to me after I have had a frog awhile they don't spit FF up anymore. this may be also because I use a different FF mix and the frog can taste it. One of the things you might want to do is get a culture for whomever you received the frog and the frog may know the difference and eat. just a thought.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

dmatychuk said:


> ....in the hands of someone who dusts versus someone who may not have or was not regular, and then the seizures start after a dusting. just a personal observation and it may mean nothing. Sometimes I have seen the PDF reject the dusted ff and spew it right out.



Yes, I have observed the same thing. Usually within a few feeding they begin taking the 'new' tasting FF without problems...

Stress of new environment, shipping could be part of the problem here...

I added some more greenery and covered the sides of the tank with cardboard this am to give it more 'security'....


Shawn


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I think you are taking the best approach and certainly lowering its stress.
Best of luck Shawn. Keep us updated if you see feeding take place or loss of weight.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have had frogs recover from seizure episodes and live for a long time afterwards. Brent Brock also reports treating a pumilio for this and having the female for a long time afterward. 

There are at least three different potential sources of nutritional seizures 
1) hypocalcemia
2) hypovitaminosis A 
4) thiamine deficiency

Severe stress can have a lot of different impacts on the frog, potentially increasing its metabolism and its metabolic need for various nutrients. 
If you are already supplementing with a balanced supplement, and the frog is feeding well then isolation and observation is a viable option for the frog. 

If the suspicions is hypocalcemia then a bath in a diluted calcium gluconate is the typical recommended remedy.
Pedialyte is of dubious value as the ingredients do not include calcium. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed
What source of Calcium Gluconate would you recommend, and how can I get it fast?

Thanks for the info. 

Exo-terra sells a calcium supplement in liquid form to be added to drinking H20. Can I use this?

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Shawn
I do not know what the ingredients are on the Exo-terra product so I can't say whether it is a good choice or not for treating the spasms or not. 

Calcium gluconate is often available via feed stores. I would need to double check the dilution but I think off the top of my head its 2.3%. 

But if the frog is feeding well on the dusted insects you may not need to run out and get the calcium gluconate. 

Ed


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Calcium*

I have used neo calglucon (spelling) that I purchased from a eckerds or similar drug store for treating a male parson's chameleon.It may work for frogs but I am not sure of proper dilution.I used a drip system for him and within a few months he was doing well.Differant circumstances but maybe you could use this for frogs as well.
later


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On a quick google search there is someone selling neocalglucon on e-bay. 

see http://froogle.google.com/froogle?hl=en ... a=N&tab=wf


This is calcium glubionate but is used the same as calcium gluconate. 
Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Thanks fellas

I am going to check my local health food store today and if I can't find it I will order that suggestion.

The frog is moving around better, better color but I have not observed feeding. The tank is kept darker now, and much more greenery so it is difficult to observe him even if he is eating, I may miss it. 

No additional observed seizures.

I assume I can figure a dilution for the calcium 'syrup' with H20 and drip 4-5 drops on his back a couple times a day. yes?

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually, it is used as a bath, soaking the frog for about an hour. 



Ed


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Ed,
What do you think about still using a couple of drips on the back for a frog that you feel is at risk but don't what to put the PDF through the stress of a bath?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Dave,

If there isn't any concern about other nutritional issues such as calcium in frogs that are simply stressed, I am aware of some institutions using a glucose solution dripped on the frog several times a day. Basically a solution of about 2% glucose is created, and the frog is well misted and then a several drops of the solution are put on the frog. This is done several times a day and there have been anecdotal reports of this working in frogs that were stressed to the point where they were unable to maintain a upright body posture. (In the latter case, the frogs were placed in a "normal" posture, misted and then several drops of the sugar solution were placed on the frog.) This is best done in a paper towel setup so that is can be cleaned frequently as the sugar solution encourages the rapid growth of bacteria and fungi and will need frequent cleaning. 

Ed


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Ed,
Thanks again for your help and experience. My second Histo is doing well but I do believe that I have a lot of ground to cover and I want to take it as easy as possible on him.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed
Here is what I have been able to locate:

Calcium Gluconate 23% solution, sterile, preservative free (500ml) from local large animal feed store.
*provides 10.71 g of Calcium per 500 ml
*Osmolality 6,782mOsmol/l
*Universal Cooperatives, Inc. Eagan, MN

and

Electrodize Supplement- ExoTerra (Hagen.com) obtained from PetCo
*Vit D3 35IU 
*Dextrose 7.5mg
*K+ 0.8mg
*Ca+2 0.2mg
*Mg+2 0.1mg
per 0.1 ml solution
recommended application is 2 drops per 30ml/oz...I assume into reptile drinking H20 supply.


I have both in my possession....Can you advise on the proper dilution of the Ca+2 Gluconate and if combining the 2 may have potential value?

Thank you very much for your expertise and assistance

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The calcium gluconate should be diluted to a 2.3% solution.

I am not sure of the value of mixing the two as the uptake of vitamin D3 typically requires the uptake of fats at the same time. 


Ed


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Shawn,
Whats up. Is there improvement or death?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

oooowwwh your gonna jinx me..

Dare I say it is doing much better....normal frog behaviors at the moment.

I just couldn't get myself to disturb it so much by doing the Ca Gluconate bath so I mixed up the soln, and using a syringe dripped it on its back a few times every day....bought all fresh supplements and have been feeding 2x/day. 

Thanks for all you help!

Shawn


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Very good to hear. When you get past this in a couple of week and see how it all ends up I would like to get your opinion.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Did the above application do the trick?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

David
It seemed to. The animal is still in my possession, and no further issues.

I have used the Ca gluconate drips, along with baytril on another frog since (another newly arrived adult tinc....connection?) both made it through over a month of not eating. The second animal got a bad case of bloat. Swelled up like a golf ball and stopped eating for >1month. Was on deaths bed a few times but miraculously pulled through with the 'treatment'. 

S


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Did you treat specifically for bloat (i.e., isotonic ringers solution in conjunction with an antibiotic treatment)? I'm wondering if anyone else has any specific experiences with this line of treatment?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

dmartin72 said:


> Did you treat specifically for bloat (i.e., isotonic ringers solution in conjunction with an antibiotic treatment)? I'm wondering if anyone else has any specific experiences with this line of treatment?


What I did:

Baytril drops on back daily.
Ca Gluconate drops on back daily 2-3X.

No baths/Ringers...I might have if I knew how to do it.  (thanks Ed)

S


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have treated bloat with both iso and hyper tonic ringers solutions with good success. 


see http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml for more info. 

Ed


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