# Pumilio feeding



## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Hi all, 
I picked up a pair of adult O. Pumilio "Bastimentos Red Frog Beach" recently and while they seem to be doing great, both exploring the tank and the male calling his heart out, they don't seem to be interested in flies at all. 

I have had them in situ for 5 days now and they appear only to want to take springtails. I've tried feeding melanogaster from both a newly mature culture and smaller mels from an older culture, but they totally ignore them. 

They are on clay substrate, so should be getting some level of calcium on the springs, but I'm wondering at what point does it become an issue that they're not getting vitamins etc from dust? 

I have set up some banana feeding stations, which again, they totally ignore the flies on. There is an extremely large population of springtails in the tank, so they're faced with this food source wherever they go. 

Anyone have any ideas?


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Probably also worth noting that I'm not flooding the viv with flies. I have removed the ones that went in originally, there are current about 15 melanogaster spread between 4 banana slices in the viv (70 gal).


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

70 gallons, NICE 
I'm thinking it could be that springs are their favorite and as long as they have so many will not need/want to eat flies, but it would be best that they do eat some flies dusted. You may have to wait until the springtail population decreases.


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks! I'm providing uv and the springtails are on clay substrate, so I don't think the frogs are at any immediate risk. They both look plump and healthy. 

The springtail population is enormous and I'm not too sure two O. Pumilio will be able to reduce it that much, but we'll see if they start to take Melanogaster as they settle into their environment.

They're also quite engrossed in what appears to be courting behaviour at the moment, so that could also explain their lack of interest in food. 

As an aside, I'll be posting a thread on the build and set up of their 70 gal vertical vivarium soon!


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

Sounds like they prefer springtails for now. Don't kid yourself though.. two pumilio adults can put a huge dent into any viv springtail population!

I bet they are eating the odd fly too.. you just aren't seeing it. Patience! Don't remove old flies either.. keep your hands out of the tank and let them settle in


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Your feeding stations means that your springtails will be self-perpetuating. If you have bananas available at all times, your springtail population could well continue to boom. You say your frogs are fat and sassy, so they appear to be finding food with no problems. Why do we need a feeding station in this scenario? In my opinion, feeding stations should be a temporary thing, for frogs in desperate need of weight gain. Another negative to a feeding station, is the incidental production of fruit fly maggots. Maggots are high fat, and high protein. They pack weight on. If your frogs have discovered the maggots, well, they fill up fast! 

Remember the goat? "T-Rex doesn't want to be fed. He wants to hunt."

A feeding station can be used another way, as a bait station. Use it attract springtails, then scoop it, and the springtails around it, out of the viv. Put more yeast in and scoop again in a few hours or in the morning. If you don't keep on top of removing it, you will simply be feeding your springs, and growing the population. Your clay substrate will make that problematic, but you can do a variation. Wet down a 4" square of tree fern panel, and sprinkle yeast on it. Put that on your substrate for a bait station. Pull it, rinse it off, re-yeast it, and re-set it. By the way, keeping that 4" square of tree fern panel on top of your springtail colony, is a great way to collect springs for feeding and spiking vivs. Pull the square, hold it over the viv to be fed, and rap it several times with a spoon or something to knock them loose. Don't just tap it on the viv, or you can contaminate the square with mites from the inhabited viv, and then of course, it would contaminate your culture.

Feed less. I agree with Eric, that they are probably eating the odd fly now and then. If you feed less, both in amounts, and in how often you feed, then your frogs will be more likely to strike while the flies have plenty of powder on them. Keep in mind that an unsuccessful strike still gets vitamin powder stuck to the tongue, and into your frog.
Keep in mind, if you feed less often, your frogs will not suffer and lose weight, as they are eating mostly springtails anyway.

It wouldn't hurt to begin feeding at the same time, every time you feed. This can start conditioning your frogs to be hungry, and ready to start hunting, when you drop flies in.


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks for the advice guys!


I have only added flies twice in 7 days, but the number of files in the viv has definitely been decreasing over the last couple of days

When I came home from work today, I noticed the male was in the leaf litter near the front of the viv. I added a small amount of dusted flies and he ate five or six. It seemed as if he was not particularly used to swallowing them, perhaps being quite newly adult, they're only just starting to view them as prey? 

With the clay substrate and UV provision, I suppose that these frogs are getting a good amount of what they need anyway? In addition, I also would imagine that the actual vitamin requirements of these tiny frogs is quite small too? 

My only concern really was that they may end up facing deficiencies, but I now understand that my concerns were probably rather overwrought.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

ATA86 said:


> Thanks for the advice guys!
> 
> 
> I have only added flies twice in 7 days, but the number of files in the viv has definitely been decreasing over the last couple of days
> ...


Glad you are seeing them eat flies. Your concern now should be to get them to eat supplement-dusted flies. I think you are right to worry about deficiencies if you are not dusting the flies. This thread is appropriate:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/320834-supplements.html

Calcium is not the only deficiency that can occur. Providing supplementation via dusting flies can even out the amount of some of the vitamins and minerals they are receiving.

There may be another learning curve for them once they are eating freshly dusted flies since they probably taste different. The stuff Doug said about reducing feeding amounts should help them through the transition period.

Mark


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## poage.1 (Mar 7, 2015)

I know this is off topic from the original post in the thread, but for my curiosity, why are you providing UV? To my knowledge UV doesn't penetrate the glass that is commonly used as tank lids. Also, I've always been told that it can do more harm than good as most PDFs don't naturally get UV living either in the understory or on the forest floor.

I don't know specifically what health issues could arise from it, but I'm of the mindset that as long as they're receiving proper supplements, it isn't worth the risk.

For what it's worth, not running UV bulbs is also easier on the wallet.


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Mark: I probably should have clarified, but my point was thinking that not eating multiple dusted flies a day is unlikely to result in deficiency, as long as they are getting some regular intake of feeding supplement. I think you're probably on the money regarding them adjusting to dusted foodstuffs. 

Poage.1: the uv bulb is positioned over a mesh vent, which the will penetrate with some loss. I have read a lot in this forum (I believe from Pumilo and Ed, as well) that these frogs will get some low level uv exposure in the wild and do benefit from it in captivity. Providing a spot of low intensity uv in the viv gives them the option to use it, if they feel the need to.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

poage.1 said:


> I know this is off topic from the original post in the thread, but for my curiosity, why are you providing UV? To my knowledge UV doesn't penetrate the glass that is commonly used as tank lids. Also, I've always been told that it can do more harm than good as most PDFs don't naturally get UV living either in the understory or on the forest floor.
> 
> I don't know specifically what health issues could arise from it, but I'm of the mindset that as long as they're receiving proper supplements, it isn't worth the risk.
> 
> For what it's worth, not running UV bulbs is also easier on the wallet.





poage.1 said:


> I know this is off topic from the original post in the thread, but for my curiosity, why are you providing UV? To my knowledge UV doesn't penetrate the glass that is commonly used as tank lids. Also, I've always been told that it can do more harm than good as most PDFs don't naturally get UV living either in the understory or on the forest floor.
> 
> I don't know specifically what health issues could arise from it, but I'm of the mindset that as long as they're receiving proper supplements, it isn't worth the risk.
> 
> For what it's worth, not running UV bulbs is also easier on the wallet.


A canopy of leaves, blocks some of the sun. It does NOT change the spectrum. Whatever sunlight makes it through, has plenty of UVB in it. Absolutely our frogs receive UVB in the wild. Absolutely UVB will still benefit your frogs, *even if properly supplementing them.*
Sorry, but that is some old school misinformation with absolutely no basis in facts or science. Here is a study, technically on juvenile bearded dragons (Pogona vitticeps), but the difference between UVB and dietary D3 supplementation is in the ball park for other studies. This is link Ed provided me with recently. https://www.researchgate.net/public..._in_juvenile_bearded_dragons_Pogona_vitticeps

Old school misinformation must die! Leaves cannot shift the spectrum of the sun! Friends, if it doesn't make sense, QUESTION IT! It it flies in the face of common sense, QUESTION IT!
UVB has always been an unnecessary option in our hobby. No longer! UVB is the future of our hobby. 
Let's help usher in a good thing, rather than beating back progress with a big dogma stick.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Frog related ones .. .

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...tal-fire-bellied-toads-Bombina-orientalis.pdf

Michaels, C. J., R. E. Antwis, and R. F. Preziosi. "Impacts of UVB provision and dietary calcium content on serum vitamin D3, growth rates, skeletal structure and coloration in captive oriental fire‐bellied toads (Bombina orientalis)." Journal of animal physiology and animal nutrition 99.2 (2015): 391-403.

http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/JPAP/article-full-text-pdf/8F0AF6B649
Verschooren, Elfi, et al. "Ultraviolet B radiation (UV-B) and the growth and skeletal development of the Amazonian milk frog (Trachycephalus resinifictrix) from metamorphosis." Journal of Physiology and Pathophysiology 2.3 (2011): 34-42.

some comments 

Ed


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Just as an aside, thanks to Ed and Pumilo for all the info you put out about these frogs, you're doing an enormous amount to improve their captive welfare. 

I quite often point people in Facebook who post about how RO/DI or distilled water is "dangerous" to frogs or tadpoles to Ed's thread on the matter.


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