# Terribilis or bicolor



## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

We have bought (from a well known frog company in NL) 5 juvenile Ph Terribilis last fall. They were presumably from one parent couple and seemed the same age.
2 were more orange colored 3 more yellow, but also of course still had a lot of black as they were juvenile.
Now that they are grown up we have serious doubts as to whether these are all terribilis. The 2 more orange colored have (much more) green covered legs as the yellow typed frogs.
Pls see the pictures and give your opinion.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Just an opinion, but the skull morphology looks more terribilis than bicolor to me. The rear legs are kinda suspect on first glance, but I do know that terribilis are a lot more variable than one would think: black splotches, black noses, yellows producing orange and vice versa ... I've heard it said the more marked up forms are pretty common in Europe, maybe Tijil or some other European keeper can weigh in.

How old are they? My Blackfoots continue to change their markings for the better part of a year.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Hi Fahad,

thanks for you reply. The top picture is the suspected bicolor. The three together are the suspected terribilis.
The last is pic a suspected bicolor again.
They are about 1,5 ys old now.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Harmenjan said:


> Hi Fahad,
> 
> thanks for you reply. The top picture is the suspected bicolor. The three together are the suspected terribilis.
> The last is pic a suspected bicolor again.
> They are about 1,5 ys old now.


Skull and generally body plan still looks very terribilis to me. 

It's the same size as the others?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

If this is a well-known company, I think you probably need to trust them on this one. They could do a lot of damage to their reputation by selling something that is not what they claim it is. If this was a new hobbyist breeder, then maybe this sort of thing can happen, but anyone that has been in the hobby for a long time would know better than to breed animals that they weren't 100% certain were legitimate. I can certainly see why you are asking the question, though.

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

They seem almost sure like a Bicolor/Terribilis hybrid to me tbh..
Such a thing is not uncommon to find in Holland or Belgium, that is why I unfortunatly only trust one 'frog company' here..

I know for a fact that 99% of the stores only care about sales since it is their way of incom, most sellers just don't care about ethics at all..
Only selling what the buyers want to hear since the most buyers are quite impatient.. Not saying this is your case @Harmenjan , this is only how almost all sellers treat their buyers.
It is quite possible the selller did not even know what he was selling since they almost only buy their supply from local breeders. I think only 1 out of 10 shopskeepers are able to breed frogs themselves.

I always recommend buying frogs from respectable breeders for a variaty of reasons..

In this case I would contact the seller, if he does not have the answers you are looking for ; ask for a refund and donate the frogs to a zoo or botanical garden.
If you would decide to keep them, it is important not to breed them so this hybrid line cannot defile other bloodlines! That's why it is also important not to return these to the seller! He would just rediribute them.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sounds like Tijl is on top of the local situation. I would do what he says ;-)

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I would sugguest to do whatever the OP is comfortable with.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Actually, I think in this case, your advice is better, Tijl. If there are not many companies that are actually reliable for dart frogs, then what I said is not correct. I was thinking that well-known = good which does not have to be the case. I would trust your assessment of the vendors in your region.

Mark


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Dear all, thanks for your answers. We will see what to do about it. At least keep either yellow or orange/green and do not breed between the colors.
I personally think the seller has both bicolor and terribilis and just put all 5 leftover together.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> If this is a well-known company, I think you probably need to trust them on this one. They could do a lot of damage to their reputation by selling something that is not what they claim it is. If this was a new hobbyist breeder, then maybe this sort of thing can happen, but anyone that has been in the hobby for a long time would know better than to breed animals that they weren't 100% certain were legitimate. I can certainly see why you are asking the question, though.
> 
> Mark


Don't worry, I will never make it known who it is. I am not about internet bashing. I just want to find out whether these are terribiliis or bicolor.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Tijl said:


> They seem almost sure like a Bicolor/Terribilis hybrid to me tbh..
> Such a thing is not uncommon to find in Holland or Belgium, that is why I unfortunatly only trust one 'frog company' here..
> 
> I know for a fact that 99% of the stores only care about sales since it is their way of incom, most sellers just don't care about ethics at all..
> ...


Care to share you preferred seller and why?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Colors is not the problem, yellow, gold and yellow/orange are pretty much the same. 

I think it is important to find out for sure if these are not a hybrid tho. The suspected Terribilis don't quite look like Terribilis to me.



Just today, I was shown 15 grey leg / azureus hybrids offered on one of the Dutch/Belgian fb groups.. last week Azureus/auratus hybrids.. This kind of animal keeping realy blows my mind


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

i am going to try one more time to contact the person and try to get to the bottom of this. I agree that it is not good to hybridise them between the colours that we have. We will probably keep the bicolor and see what to do about the yellow. I am still hoping that he is true and tell me what they are. maybe I'll even go there and see the parents, he claims he bred them himself.

He also told me that he has terribilis and bicolor parents and that it always surprises him that when he has bicolor every one wants terriblilis and vice versa. As they were really black with some yellow/orange I can imagine that it can be hard to keep froglets apart when young. Another problem is that they are now as Terribilis on the papers.....

if we breed with the orange/green bicolor, and all the froglets turn out to be the same color and no yellow than we can safely say (if ever) that these are bicolor. I will never keep 2 sorts of frogs in one tank and will never hybridise them on purpose, but disposing of these goes a bit to far.

Thanks all for your answers. have a good day.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I think you misunderstand something.

You should not breed with these since there is a realy good chance all those frogs are hybrids themselves..

If you separate them into what you believe are Bicolor and Terribilis, you are simply separating 2 groups of hybrids that probably have the same parents..Again, color has nothing to do with it.

The color alone does not prove what species they are.


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Hi Tijl, No, i do not misunderstand. I know what you mean. but I am first going to find out whether they are hybrids and if the owner keeps telling me that it is not, then I'll have to believe him. I just hope that he will tell us that I has sold us 2 bicolor and 3 terribilis "by accident". Just writing them off like that is a bit too easy. And to answer with your own words, "I would suggest to do whatever the OP is comfortable with. ", that is what we will do.

No offence by the way, I am just not very good with "You should not", I hope you also do not take any offence here with my answer. 

If they are hybrids, than it will be very hard to trust any yellow/orange terribilis or bicolor in the market around here. probably only white/mint can than we trusted to be actual terribilis.

let's close this subject..... thanks all for your replies. very grateful, also yours Tijl!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

No offence taken  

Just making sure there was no misunderstanding and trying to give more information.

Best of luck and let us know!


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## Harmenjan (Oct 28, 2018)

Dear all, to finish the discussion off, i have had a phonecall with the breeder and (having both terribilis and bicolor in his collection) jointly came to the conclusion that some mixip must have happen with the froglets. So no hybrids luckily, just a mixup. As of today they are now officially bicolors


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