# My frog(s) overcame a deadly contagious form of dermatitis. Are they carriers now?



## RETFgirl

I am a somewhat newbie to breeding red eyed tree frogs. I met a RETF breeder on this forum and proceeded to meet him at a reptile show to buy his frogs because I was very interested in breeding. I bought 5 that day. 4 from him and 1 from another breeder. I already had 7 adults, 1 juvenile and tadpoles from successfully breeding the 7 I already had. This put my collection to 12 adults(6M6F) a juvenile + tads. I was already treating my collection for parasites in sterilite tubs and I decided to treat the new ones too because I was building a new 134 gallon viv and didn't want to risk parasite contamination.

One of the frogs I purchased had a small reddish black spot on the hind leg on the day of purchase but I figured it to be some kind of scar. It did not appear to be sick and I trusted this breeder to not sell me a sick frog. After treating each frog with a single syringe for parasites, not keeping every single frog in its own tub (MY BIGGEST MISTAKE) and not hand washing after cleaning all 6 quarantine tubs each day I inadvertently spread a form of frog dermatitis to my entire collection. The male with the spot got another and another and 3 days later he was dying. I contacted Dr. Frye and immediately started silver sulfadiazine and switched from metronidazole to Baytril. Sure enough within a week one by one frogs were getting spots and they were not responding at all to treatment. Some got them on their mouths, some on their toe pads, all on the belly and on the flanks. They resembled cold sores on the body but the feet looked more like painful red growths that would hemorrhage and they spread daily on the body like wildfire. the males were hit the worst and the fastest. I just started euthanizing all of them not responding to treatment with Orajel. They were in horrendous pain I have only one that cleared up quickly with treatment, a large female, and she is still in quarantine but is thriving. 3 of the 4 frogs I purchased of his died, along with 4 others from my collection. 7 dead, 4 never came down with any symptoms. I discussed it with the breeder and he felt that since they were wild caught, the one frog could have been a carrier and the sickness took over after the stress from the show.


SOOOOOOOO.... my question is... has anyone ever dealt with this illness before? Were there any survivors? (I heard their NEVER is) and would putting the female who overcame the disease back with the others be too great of a risk? could future frogs be in jeopardy? I have 1 captive bred juvenile, and 6 of my own captive bred froglets. Could they ever go in the viv with the others pr breed with the ones who never came down with the illness? 
Advice please


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## jacobi

Oh my. I'm so sorry you and your frogs went through that.


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## RETFgirl

Ya super lame situation. I am definitely at fault for letting my guard down on the possibility of disease transmission 😢


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## Halter

I lost one of my prized males from this illness. I purchased a large female (I was told she was CB) and she was in quarantine for 3 months. The moment that i pulled her out and put her with my male she started displaying syptoms. She ended up dying in 2 days, spread to the male and took him to the vet. They put him on baytril and he did not make it. I was devastated. It looked like cold sores all over his body and just would not recover. I am glad some of your frogs lived but I know exactly what you went through.

As far as putting the babies where that disease was...NO.

I had to completely break down my viv. Disinfect everything...Three times. After letting it completely dry. They did fine after that but I def would not risk that.


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## frogface

Oh no!! How awful! 

I would not add any of the infected frogs to your established group or your juvie or tads. I would keep the infected survivors in their own tank, away from the rest of your collection, and monitor them for quite a while. In the meantime, I think you should contact a vet and ask them about the risk of contamination from the healed frogs. 

What is the name of this disease? Did you get a necropsy done?


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## Halter

frogface said:


> Oh no!! How awful!
> 
> I would not add any of the infected frogs to your established group or your juvie or tads. I would keep the infected survivors in their own tank, away from the rest of your collection, and monitor them for quite a while. In the meantime, I think you should contact a vet and ask them about the risk of contamination from the healed frogs.
> 
> What is the name of this disease? Did you get a necropsy done?


I sent my specimen out for a necropsy. Unfortunately even after the frog was put in the freezer after death, and kept in formalin he was to decomposed in the inside (even though he looked whole) to be able to give a good diagnosis. 

However, my veterinarian did say that it could potentially be some sort of fungus that causes them to have their skin just decay and spread. Which would make sense to me. 
From what I saw of this, the disease spread like wildfire. Within 5 hours of noticing the female (even after removing her and moving the male out of the tank) he started showing symptoms. I feel if this was viral symptoms may not be so sudden. 
He did rx some baytril-otic which unfortunately did not do anything.


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## jacobi

It's my opinion that you should reach out and contact someone more knowledgeable for help and advice, perhaps to help you find a vet capable of diagnosing the disease. I didn't mention anything earlier in my previous post, as I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, and I figured someone would say something, but, and I apologize if this seems harsh, I really don't mean it that way. I'm just saying it to underline the severity of the issue. You seem to have a pretty serious situation going on, and I personally wouldn't want anything from your frogroom/tanks coming anywhere near my collection. If you intend on continuing with frog keeping, major safety precautions need to be taken. Again, I apologize if I seemed harsh, it was not my intent.


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## frogface

I agree with jacobi. Most of us are out of our depth with this. This disease appears to be highly contagious and fast at spreading and killing frogs. You need professional help. And if I may say, as much help as Dr Frye is for fecals and getting meds to people, I think you need a local vet who can actually see and put hands on your animals. Someone who can culture the sores, perform necropsies, and is trained in exotic animals.

I don't know anything about California but there are quite a few CA froggers here. I bet someone can get you in touch with a local exotic vet. 

West - Dendroboard


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## frogface

> 3 of the 4 frogs I purchased of his died, along with 4 others from my collection. 7 dead, 4 never came down with any symptoms. I discussed it with the breeder and he felt that since they were wild caught, the one frog could have been a carrier and the sickness took over after the stress from the show.


Can we discuss the purchase of the frogs, a little, without actually naming the breeder who sold them to you?

What I am wondering is why the breeder was selling WC frogs instead of frogs he had bred? Do they sell CB or only WC? You say you found the breeder here. Did you find a feedback thread on this breeder and did his feedback look ok? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/

I have concern for collection wipe-outs from other frogs that came in contact with the lot yours came from.


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## Blue_Pumilio

You may want to send out some swabs to test for chytrid and Rana virus. Just a thought. 

Research Associates Laboratory


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## RETFgirl

The wild caught collection he sold to me were his breeders. I didnt know they were wild caught when I bought them. I am not trying to ruin this guy, he is trying his best to make it right. He sold them all at the show because he tore down his viv and decided to start over for some reason. From what I understand they are all sold and he is going to start over breeding a new collection of frogs hes ordering. I really would rather not bash him since he is supposedly replacing 5 of them for me. Im not trying to hurt anyone I just needed advice. I am aware now that it is really a bad idea to combine the frogs now...which really bums me out because I wish that my cb collection were able to enjoy my 134 gallon viv I spent so much time money and effort building ='(


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## RETFgirl

Oh and when I inquired about a neocropsy my local exotics vet told me some outlandish price of about $500+ dollars. My exotic vet really doesnt know too much about frogs and charges an arm and a leg for just an office visit. I was in contact with Dr.Frye the entire time and had already sent out fecals of my frogs before I bought the frogs at the show. He supplied me with the abundance of medications I was using to try and combat the virus


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## frogface

RETFgirl said:


> The wild caught collection he sold to me were his breeders. I didnt know they were wild caught when I bought them. I am not trying to ruin this guy, he is trying his best to make it right. He sold them all at the show because he tore down his viv and decided to start over for some reason. From what I understand they are all sold and he is going to start over breeding a new collection of frogs hes ordering. I really would rather not bash him since he is supposedly replacing 5 of them for me. Im not trying to hurt anyone I just needed advice. I am aware now that it is really a bad idea to combine the frogs now...which really bums me out because I wish that my cb collection were able to enjoy my 134 gallon viv I spent so much time money and effort building ='(


I don't think anyone here wants to bash anyone and I appreciate that he wants to reimburse you for your loss. However, there is just a great deal of concern that this could spread to other collections. 

So his breeders are WC. Presumably, they did not have sores when they were his breeders. He believes the stress of going to the show caused the illness to come out. Usually WC frogs are treated prophylactically for presumed illness and parasites. Did he do this with his WC breeders? For some reason, he broke down their tank and decided to start over with new frogs that he's ordering.


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## frogface

RETFgirl said:


> Oh and when I inquired about a neocropsy my local exotics vet told me some outlandish price of about $500+ dollars. My exotic vet really doesnt know too much about frogs and charges an arm and a leg for just an office visit. I was in contact with Dr.Frye the entire time and had already sent out fecals of my frogs before I bought the frogs at the show. He supplied me with the abundance of medications I was using to try and combat the virus


Maybe you could check around with some froggers in your area to find a local vet. My vet charges 140 for a necropsy but they told me to just take the frog to the State Pathology Lab, where they will do it for 50. Not all vets are out to charge as much as possible.


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## RETFgirl

They are still frozen in my freezer.Ill look around for another vet. Is it too late for a neocropsy?


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## Halter

It will depend on how long the specimen was dead prior to putting in the freezer. When I lost mine I immediately put in the freezer (was dead for maybe a few hours) and the laboratory (idexx) told me that the specimen was to broken down. On the car ride to the vet i got to work and immediately put it in the formalin. Shipped out the frog. 3 weeks later I finally get a response saying that they were unable to come up with a diagnosis because of the age of the body. 
So i am wondering if it was too far gone because they simply took to long to dissect him.

I would give it a try and hope they give back something. I did not get a lot of answers from my veterinarian ( i work at a vet and the Dr sees exotics), both of them seemed stumped (even when he was alive).


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## frogparty

RETFgirl said:


> Oh and when I inquired about a neocropsy my local exotics vet told me some outlandish price of about $500+ dollars. My exotic vet really doesnt know too much about frogs and charges an arm and a leg for just an office visit. I was in contact with Dr.Frye the entire time and had already sent out fecals of my frogs before I bought the frogs at the show. He supplied me with the abundance of medications I was using to try and combat the virus


My vet in Carlsbad used to be the exotics vet for the San Diego zoo. Great guy and definitely knows his stuff, if youre looking for a new vet


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## Halter

frogface said:


> I don't think anyone here wants to bash anyone and I appreciate that he wants to reimburse you for your loss. However, there is just a great deal of concern that this could spread to other collections.
> 
> So his breeders are WC. Presumably, they did not have sores when they were his breeders. He believes the stress of going to the show caused the illness to come out. Usually WC frogs are treated prophylactically for presumed illness and parasites. Did he do this with his WC breeders? For some reason, he broke down their tank and decided to start over with new frogs that he's ordering.


I also agree with this statement. Who knows how many froglets this 'business' has sold that these animals could be potential carriers. I mean it is scary, alot of Red Eyes go to people who are just beginning to get into frogs and their popularity is scary enough to show that this could potentially be pretty dangerous for someone who may of purchased a frog from this 'business.

Rana Virus was mentioned. Can anyone give me some details about it?


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## frogface

I think, somewhere on here, there is a post about how freezing is not good. Not sure, I'll have to go look for it. I was told to put the frog in the refridgerator, with nothing else in with it, and bring it to them first thing in the morning. I'll see what I can find.


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## frogface

Halter said:


> I also agree with this statement. Who knows how many froglets this 'business' has sold that these animals could be potential carriers.
> 
> I am somewhat unfamiliar with the Rana Virus. Can anyone give me some details about it?


Yes, and not just froglets. These frogs were at a reptile show. Were they handled when rounded up and put into a container for the purchaser? Where did those hands go next? Where they sanitized? How about the container that now has frog juice on it from being handled while scooping up frogs? Did the buyer handle the container and then go look at wood for a tank or pick up a bag of leaf litter and then put it back down? Who came along next?

(sorry, I really don't mean to be picking on you RETFgirl. These are dangers inherent in any animal show and something we should all be thinking about).


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## Halter

frogface said:


> I think, somewhere on here, there is a post about how freezing is not good. Not sure, I'll have to go look for it. I was told to put the frog in the refridgerator, with nothing else in with it, and bring it to them first thing in the morning. I'll see what I can find.


Really, I wonder why. I wonder if the moment it starts to thaw organs degrade faster than if they were not frozen?

I wonder if kept in formalin that would even matter, curious if that is why the necropsy on my frog showed nothing ( which was strange because the lesions are outside the skin...but i wonder what external damage there was, hemorrhaging?).


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## frogface

Halter said:


> Really, I wonder why. I wonder if the moment it starts to thaw organs degrade faster than if they were not frozen?
> 
> I wonder if kept in formalin that would even matter, curious if that is why the necropsy on my frog showed nothing ( which was strange because the lesions are outside the skin...but i wonder what external damage there was, hemorrhaging?).


I found this:



> If a frog dies - to preserve it as best as possible - place it in the refrigerator (Not the freezer - ice crystal formation will destroy the tissue). The faster that you can get the frog to necropsy the better.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/22090-frog-necropsy.html

Some suggest high ethol alcohol if you don't have formalin. My vet asked me to not put the frog in Everclear. They said just keep it cold and bring it asap.


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## Halter

frogface said:


> I found this:
> 
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/22090-frog-necropsy.html
> 
> Some suggest high ethol alcohol if you don't have formalin. My vet asked me to not put the frog in Everclear. They said just keep it cold and bring it asap.



Edit that was suppost to say internal btw 

How sad that is, that is interesting. I wonder if it is because their skin is semi permeable? 
I will remember this for the future (which i hope i dont have to anytime soon).


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## frogface

RETFgirl, I wanted to make sure you saw these two posts. 



Blue_Pumilio said:


> You may want to send out some swabs to test for chytrid and Rana virus. Just a thought.
> 
> Research Associates Laboratory





frogparty said:


> My vet in Carlsbad used to be the exotics vet for the San Diego zoo. Great guy and definitely knows his stuff, if youre looking for a new vet


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## billschwinn

I have some short common sense answers, never freeze samples. always refrigerate them, 3 days being the accepted limit. I would not use those frogs as they may be carriers at this point. Get some new ones to attempt breeding.


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## RETFgirl

I am pretty sure I never handled any of them at the show... There was a time where one jumped out while he placed it in a different container (cant recall who caught it) but t I went to DFC and bought cork bark and substrate before I bought the frogs. Once I bought them I pretty much just looked around and left shortly after. I didn't really go anywhere else except for the cricket guy on the way out the door. The plastic containers got thrown in the trash the first day... I froze the frogs within seconds of death. I may have jumped the gun on putting some of these frogs to sleep in the beginning but they were in bad shape, sleeping on the bottom of the cage and were getting more sores. Watching these frogs die of this death was heartbreaking. One literally had an ulcer erupting through his ear drum... OUCH! Once I saw the first two suffer and die an unimaginable death I just put them to sleep at a certain point but only on the ones not responding to treatment. Only 1 got better and started healing immediately and she was the biggest fattest gravid girl I've ever seen. She would've made a fantastic breeder... Now I'm afraid of her  
I must say through experience... A glob of Orajel severe pain relief on the belly of the frogs resulted in a shockingly humane form if euthanasia within 15 seconds. The frogs never struggled never even closed their eyes... They just appeared content and alive even after they were dead. Hope nobody EVER has to do it but if they do... Orajel is the way to go. =*( ugh I need a tissue now SMH


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## frogface

> I must say through experience... A glob of Orajel severe pain relief on the belly of the frogs resulted in a shockingly humane form if euthanasia within 15 seconds. The frogs never struggled never even closed their eyes... They just appeared content and alive even after they were dead. Hope nobody EVER has to do it but if they do... Orajel is the way to go. =*( ugh I need a tissue now SMH


I haven't had to do it yet and I really hope I never do. I respect you for it. Horrible, just horrible. 

As far as what I wrote about touching things at the show, I didn't mean to point fingers at you. It's what we all do. Just something we should keep in mind as we move about in a room full of animals. IMO, there should be hand sanitizer on every table with a sign asking that people us it before and after visiting each table.


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## jacobi

What are your plans for the vivarium?


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## Ed

Halter said:


> Really, I wonder why. I wonder if the moment it starts to thaw organs degrade faster than if they were not frozen?


Freezing degrades the tissues by breaking the cell walls and results in changes to the tissues which can prevent diagnosis (for example, the signs of a viral infection are difficult to see in thawed tissues). Never freeze an item that is going to be necropsied... 



> I wonder if kept in formalin that would even matter, curious if that is why the necropsy on my frog showed nothing ( which was strange because the lesions are outside the skin...but i wonder what external damage there was, hemorrhaging?).


While formalin doesn't break down the tissues, it prevents bacterial/fungal cultures from being taken to determine the actual cause of an infection. It does however preserve the tissues allowing for gross determinations (damage to organs and so forth), and general determinations based on histopathology. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

frogface said:


> I found this:
> 
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/22090-frog-necropsy.html
> 
> Some suggest high ethol alcohol if you don't have formalin. My vet asked me to not put the frog in Everclear. They said just keep it cold and bring it asap.


See the general guidelines here Necropsy and sample preservation methods - sample collection 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Groundhog

This thread is our nightmare. I really want to compliment RETFgirl for bring this up--I'd be crying too much to type...

--Thank you to those who clarified the necropsy sample guidelines;
--Hope I never have to use orajel, on my mouth or a frog...
--I am confused: Have we identified the actual pathogen? I re-read the thread (still painful) and I am still not clear on whether this is viral, fungal or bacterial. *Did Dr. Frye have a hypothesis or tentative diagnosis? * 
My hypothesis is an internally spreading fungus, but even if I am right, I'd have #[email protected]! idea what to do about it!

I would like to contact Mike Novy, Devin, Peter or any of the other cats with serious hylid/tree frog experience. 

What we need to know:

1) What is this?
2) Is it taxon specific, or husbandry related (e.g., frogs got too cold/warm, etc.);
3) Possible it affects some species, not others?
4) The quarantine protocol for this pathogen;
5) Very important: Is it at all possible that, even if successfully treated, that a treated frog might still be a "carrier" unsuitable for contact with other frogs? 

RETFgirl: I don't mean to turn this tragedy into a #[email protected]! science project, but we need to find out what this actually is. Does anyone here know?


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## frogface

Someone suggested to me that it might be Rana virus. Hopefully he'll come by to discuss that. I know nothing about Rana virus and have no information to add regarding that possibility.

I agree that Novy would be a good one to talk to. Don't know the other guys. Someone give Michael a call. I don't have a phone.


eta: I did a quick google search on ranavirus+amphibian. The images look very much like RETFgirl's pics. I know that is no diagnosis but I thought it was interesting.


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## Ed

Groundhog said:


> --I am confused: Have we identified the actual pathogen?


From what I can see in the thread, there is no definitive identification of a pathogen since as far as I can see there hasn't been any tests for a specific pathogen. 



Groundhog said:


> My hypothesis is an internally spreading fungus, but even if I am right, I'd have #[email protected]! idea what to do about it!


I'm not sure why you would assume it is a internally spreading fungal infection... There isn't anything in the brief description to indicate as viable option over other scenarios... For example, the lesions could be due to a primary viral infection.. with or without a secondary infection by bacteria, protozoa or fungi (or any combination of the above including all four)... 
Or it could be due to a primary bacterial infection with or without a secondary viral, bacterial, fungal or protozoal infection (or any combination of the above including all of them)...





Groundhog said:


> What we need to know:
> 
> 1) What is this?


Unknown other than it appears from the small sample size to be highly transmissible




Groundhog said:


> 2) Is it taxon specific, or husbandry related (e.g., frogs got too cold/warm, etc.);


Unknown... probably exacerbated due to high stress levels of the frogs due to handling and sale... people often forget that a single stressor can suppress immune function for up to two weeks and repeated stressors can extend that time period considerably... Husbandry issues can increase the stress after the animals are home.. Unlikely to be taxon specific... 



Groundhog said:


> 3) Possible it affects some species, not others?


As a conservative guess, I would treat it as transmissible to other amphibians, and possibly feeder insects and reptiles. 



Groundhog said:


> 4) The quarantine protocol for this pathogen;


At a minimum, 30 days in quarantine isolated as much as possible from other reptiles, amphibians and feeder insects. Tests for fecals, and ideally ranavirus and chytrid should be done. 
Ideally the new animals should be housed in a totally different area of a house (as far as possible from the established collection (for example if in a multifloor home, on a separate floor, as far from the established animals)). Quarantined animals should be cared for after all other herps and the feeder insects and if there are left over feeder insects from feeding the quarantine animals, do not go back and use them for established collection. Freeze and discard them into the trash (double bag the trash please). 
Always use quarantine enclosures that can be easily disinfected. All waste water from enclosures should be sterilized through the addition of bleach and allowed to sit for at least 24 hours before discarding. If you want to use it for plants, use chlorine remover before using it to water the plants. 





Groundhog said:


> 5) Very important: Is it at all possible that, even if successfully treated, that a treated frog might still be a "carrier" unsuitable for contact with other frogs?


It's possible but if it is due to a bacterial infection the vast majority of those are opportunistic and found in the environment in which the amphibians are housed... It isn't uncommon for animals that were under sub-par care (dirty cages) to come down with bacterial infections with lesions after being transferred or sold to a new owner.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

frogface said:


> Someone suggested to me that it might be Rana virus. Hopefully he'll come by to discuss that. I know nothing about Rana virus and have no information to add regarding that possibility.


The basic description does match some of the strains of ranavirus infection but it also matches other potential infectious agents such as fungal and even bacterial infections of the skin.. The lesions could even be due to a secondary or tertiary infection from being stressed and ill. 
The best option is to conservatively treat as if it was a easily transmitted ranavirus as this gives the greatest protection to the other animals. As I indicated above there are precautions that should be taken going forward. 

The sterilite 20 quart gasket boxes make good quarantine containers as they are easily modified to contain or exclude stray insects, are easily disinfected, can be modified for ventilation, and are stackable... See for example Sterilite 20 Quart Gasket Box 


Some comments 

Ed


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## markpulawski

Wow your situation really sucks but stay in the hobby long enough and we all learn these lessons the hard way. The guy definitely owes you 100% of whatever you gave him back, no question, no matter how long it took for them to go down you should be reimbursed for all of it. And we all no this does not come close to what you are actually out, the loss of your own animals, the time and meds to try and save them and most importantly the question of is it gone. 
You did a good job of putting them down, I am partial to the freezer myself and as for the survivor, either euthanize or never expose to any other frogs. Hopefully you did not lose that amazing teal colored frog, good luck.
And as for naming the person, it is a public service to let people know if they have animals that came from this tainted group, left unchecked it could cause a huge problem down the line. Either he needs to let them know, or someone does.


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## RETFgirl

What infuriates me is the frogs that I've grown quite attached to are now tainted or dead. Some of these frogs whom I was in love with... i had to, with tears in my eyes, kill myself. my dreams of spoiling then gone. I have an amazing 134 gallon display viv that I invested all of my money into and it's basically worthless now. I have 4 frogs in there( living it up by the way) and one gorgeous F who lives in a hospital tank who is a survivor but is now having to live out her days alone in an exo-terra. Then there are my CB babies who will never be able to enjoy the viv either. I had these hopes of mimicking the wild and giving them the best life possible...but I don't even know what to do with them now. Where will I house them when they get bigger? My house is small. My dreams of breeding red eyed tree frogs for a local pet store and for friends and family are shattered. My frogs are questionable and breeding is no longer an option. I almost gave up frog keeping because of this but I love the ones I have and don't want to give them to people who may spread the sickness. I can't sleep at night from the stress of this. This was the worst thing ever! I hope that people learn from my mistakes. I love these frogs with all my heart and I feel completely cheated. Thanks everybody for all of your support. It goes to show that 1 sick frog can lead to massive die offs and can burden a good frog keepers soul. Not sure where to go from here.


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## frogface

You are already heads above some others simply because you are putting the needs of the frogs (everyone's frogs) before money. If you were a less scrupulous breeder, well, you'd just go ahead and breed them up and send them out. Thank you for being an ethical frog keeper. That, alone, will earn you many friends here 

What is it about frogs?! I'm sitting here at my desk at work, just crying. 

eta: If you could get up with a local vet (maybe the one frogparty mentioned) and get some cultures or something, maybe you would find out that it is something cureable? I dunno. It's worth a try.


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## RETFgirl

I am going to call my local exotics vet again. I would LOVE to know what this sickness is. Unfortunately my household lives on 1 modest income and there are 3 children and 2 adults living on it. I wish we had the money to pursue this illness and not question costs. If anybody knows of anybody who is maybe an expert on frog diseases or is a veterinarian willing to pursue this further I have a known carrier who could possibly be tested and studied and I could pay to ship. I don't even know if that's safe or possible but I would love if it was.


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## frogface

RETFgirl said:


> I am going to call my local exotics vet again. I would LOVE to know what this sickness is. Unfortunately my household lives on 1 modest income and there are 3 children and 2 adults living on it. I wish we had the money to pursue this illness and not question costs. If anybody knows of anybody who is maybe an expert on frog diseases or is a veterinarian willing to pursue this further I have a known carrier who could possibly be tested and studied and I could pay to ship. I don't even know if that's safe or possible but I would love if it was.


That's an interesting idea. I'd think about doing it myself but I have other people's frogs in my house. I'm the Frog Sitter 

What about calling your exotic and also frogparty's guy (frogparty's guy is who I would want to go to) and seeing what it would take to get this frog looked at and tested? It might not be as much as you think. Seems like ranavirus and chytrid tests are not all that much. Get a ballpark figure and take it from there.

eta: Heck, I think you should send the link to this thread to frogparty's vet and ask if he can help you.


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## Harpo

Are there any universities with a veterinary, zoological or pathogen research center? You may be able to donate the deceased, a quarantined or even tank materials for research. You could get your answer and benefit those studying as well.

*edit: Also, as discouraging as it is, continue to work out the grieving process. All your feelings are natural. At the end if you trust that your love for the hobby is pure, good things will come out of this.


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## RETFgirl

I'm not exactly sure how to do these things. Can you forward to him?


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## srrrio

So sorry about your frogs. I came across this awhile back, maybe out of date but there is contact info at the bottom of the page.. worth a try perhaps.

http://www.sandiegozoo.org/images/uploads/Amphibians_Newsletter.pdf


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## Ed

srrrio said:


> So sorry about your frogs. I came across this awhile back, maybe out of date but there is contact info at the bottom of the page.. worth a try perhaps.
> 
> http://www.sandiegozoo.org/images/uploads/Amphibians_Newsletter.pdf


No, it's not out of date. The pricing for the testing is fairly inexpensive for example the chytrid test is about $12 and the ranavirus testing is about $18. Most of her frogs could be tested for under $100... for example the group of four frogs in the big tank could be all submitted as one group.., the single female (survivor) is the second group, and the metamorphs are the third group... estimated total excluding shipping @$90... She could even use the same swab on multiple animals in the same group (as the pathogens are infectious enough that if one has it, they all will in that group) *but not between groups.* 

Onto the general discussion... 

As for not being able to use the large enclosure or put the groups together... this all depends on what the frogs actually have... for example, if the disease is bacterial in origin with the exception of Mycobacterium (which has a depopulate and sterilize recommendation), then there is no reason to keep them separate.. The reason for this is because the bacteria that typically infect frogs are opportunistic and are normally found either in the frog or in the environment of the frogs... You can't avoid their presence... now bacterial infections that are this infectious are typically the result of poor sanitation, overcrowding and stress and can take time for the frogs to show symptoms but once symptoms become apparent, the frogs can die within hours... A common example of this is "red leg" (which is not a disease but a symptom) symptoms that are caused by a bacterial infection and not due to stress, irritation, viral or fungal infections. Even in the case of bacterial septicemias, once treated, the frogs are safe to house in with other frogs... 
The ones where they may be questions are things like ranavirus and survivors can be asymptomatic carriers.. however even in this case, it is possible to produce uninfected froglets if good quarantine and sanitation practices are followed. Chytrid is also readily treatable and can be eliminated from the frogs and even the enclosure (for example pulling the frogs for the ten day treatment while increasing the temperature of the enclosure and holding it there...)... 
With respect to the enclosure with regards to ranavirus.. ranavirus does disappear in the environment over time.. for example at 20C, it's persistence declines significantly over 50 days (see Environmental persistence of amphibian and r... [Dis Aquat Organ. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI) so quarantining the enclosure at keeping it functioning at or above 20 C can allow salvaging the enclosure. 

Now there are some things that will require the breakdown of the enclosure... Mycobacterium infections, lungworms (Rhabdius ssp) infections, hookworms (unless very extended periods of time are spent to let it die out (probably more than a year...)... And unless Ponazuril is effective for Cryotosporidial infection, crypto will require a restart. 

Even if there are parasitic worms in the enclosure, plants can be salvaged by taking cuttings, dipping them into a bleach solution and growing them in a pot... Future cuttings can then be taken from new growth avoiding the parasites.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## markpulawski

It's understandable to be really discouraged, what a PIA it is to go through this, in the 90's my entire collection was wiped out by Chytrid twice which meant sterilizing 30 tanks and rebuilding them. It makes you wonder if it's worth it but if your passionate about something it always is. Take one step at a time and don't let it overwhelm you before you know it this will be behind you and you will have survived what unfortunately turns into a great learning experience. Get everything cleaned up, figure out what has been exposed and then determine if you want to continue to house and feed what may be tainted animals. Don't be in a hurry and good luck.


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## frogface

RETFgirl said:


> I'm not exactly sure how to do these things. Can you forward to him?


Send a PM to frogparty for his vet's contact info. Call ask if you can send an email explaining the problem. Then email them the pics. You can try to explain the situation in the email but I think this thread really has a lot of info. Maybe a quick explanation with a link to the thread. Let him know that you need help figuring out what to do. It's what he does for a living, and, having been to the San Diego Zoo (awesome place), I imagine it's also a passion. 

You might be able to rule out ranavirus and chytrid for not a lot of money. Then mycobateria (can this be tested outside of necropsy, Ed?). If it's not any of those, then you might be ok.


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## CJ PELCH

As sad as the situation is. Ill admit upfront I sold her my 5 of 12 wild caught breeders which I purchased from pet kingdom in December of 2012. I Sucessfully bred 3 seasons worth from these breeder and sold them to her at the la reptile super show. I am the first to admit I never had any of my frogs die this way. Britney sent me pictures on the 8th day of purchase of her infected male. She was keeping them all together in a plastic bin. Even though my policy policy is to not refund frogs of death passed 5 days. I felt extremely horrible and contacted dr fry and purchased her medication through Dr. Fry. The frog ended up dieing days later and all the other frogs started showing symptoms. I came to an agreement with britney that I would replace all the frogs I sold her that died and one of hers for no additional cost from mike novys captive bred breeders yesterday evening. I purchase all my breeders and babies from him now that I no longer work with wild caught frogs since the show. Britney did not want my replacements due to possible tainted collection. I would like to put out now.....although my captive bred breeders never showed these symptoms I will refund any of my customers who bought I a red eye tree frog from me at that show if they come forward to me at [email protected]. All other frogs sold at the show were captive bred by mike novey or myself or other local san diego breeders. Once again I appologize
in advance and will remedy this situation to the best of my ability. I am deeply sorry for this as it makes me sad since I owned them for so long myself and never had anything to this extreme. This was a lesson taught to her and myself on the risks of working with and selling wild caught frogs. I will also state I will reemburse the diagnosis costs by a local vet for this. Horrible tragedy as I would also like to know what caused this disaster.


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## Cfrog

Thank you CJ for coming forward and taking responsibility for the situation. I commend you for that.


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## frogface

> Ill admit upfront I sold her my 5 of 12 wild caught breeders which I purchased from pet kingdom in December of 2012. I Sucessfully bred 3 seasons worth from these breeder and sold them to her at the la reptile super show.


I'm glad you came by. I've never bred RETFs myself. How long is a breeding season?


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## CJ PELCH

Well what I meant by breeding season is I used my rain chamber 3 times throughout the year


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## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> As sad as the situation is. Ill admit upfront I sold her my 5 of 12 wild caught breeders which I purchased from pet kingdom in December of 2012. I Sucessfully bred 3 seasons worth from these breeder and sold them to her at the la reptile super show. I am the first to admit I never had any of my frogs die this way. Britney sent me pictures on the 8th day of purchase of her infected male. She was keeping them all together in a plastic bin. Even though my policy policy is to not refund frogs of death passed 5 days. I felt extremely horrible and contacted dr fry and purchased her medication through Dr. Fry. The frog ended up dieing days later and all the other frogs started showing symptoms. I came to an agreement with britney that I would replace all the frogs I sold her that died and one of hers for no additional cost from mike novys captive bred breeders yesterday evening. I purchase all my breeders and babies from him now that I no longer work with wild caught frogs since the show. Britney did not want my replacements due to possible tainted collection. I would like to put out now.....although my captive bred breeders never showed these symptoms I will refund any of my customers who bought I a red eye tree frog from me at that show if they come forward to me at [email protected]. All other frogs sold at the show were captive bred by mike novey or myself or other local san diego breeders. Once again I appologize
> in advance and will remedy this situation to the best of my ability. I am deeply sorry for this as it makes me sad since I owned them for so long myself and never had anything to this extreme. This was a lesson taught to her and myself on the risks of working with and selling wild caught frogs. I will also state I will reemburse the diagnosis costs by a local vet for this. Horrible tragedy as I would also like to know what caused this disaster.



Just out of curiosity ,you say you never had problems with them,but was that before you put them in with your untested wc ruby eyes?


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## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> Thank you CJ for coming forward and taking responsibility for the situation. I commend you for that.


This situation I didn't handle lightly when I heard the news from britney. I was very sad when I found out it was contageous and did my best to remedy up front and as soon as possible. When I called Dr Fry I had him overnight the medication and she started treatment the next day. Since britney didnt quarentine her other frogs I have no proof that it was my frogs that gave her this problem since she had wild caughts herself but I will assume they were my problem since I know everyone she bought from me was wild caught.


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## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> Horrible tragedy as I would also like to know what caused this disaster.


Umm... selling WC frogs?


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## RETFgirl

Cj... I never told you that mine were wild caught. I told you I got them from different breeders and was not 100% sure. In regards to you not knowing if my frogs gave it to your frogs....your 4 frogs were the first to die and show symptoms. I have apologies and you admitting via messaging that you will make good with what happened and that your frogs were wild caught, stressed and that brought out the disease. You also said you were, and I quote "losing hella money over this and to keep good reviews coming" I have you telling me it wasn't contagious, to wash the frogs twice a day in hand soap, and that I can put dart frogs in the old viv and they wont catch the disease. Then you say its red leg, and when I brought out a prior post you posted on the forum regarding red leg in your populations you said that mine didnt have redleg...all in a matter of 5 minutes. I have texts that say youve never had frogs die on you, and another saying you've had "HUNDREDS" of frogs die on you. I can name 20 times you've lied to me. The best one being that my replacement frogs were coming in on Oct 15th and you could not directly ship them to me or get them to me any sooner and had to intercept them (which seemed fishy) But a half hour later you claimed that they are actually in route being shipped in the next few days. You told me you were selling me frogs that had never been bred...but Im pretty sure you were going to breed them before shipping them to me on the 15th. I could go on forever.


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## jacobi

RETFgirl said:


> ...to wash the frogs twice a day in hand soap


Wait. Seriously? You were actually told this?


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## CJ PELCH

DIAL ANTIBACTERIAL HAND SOAP original (orange brand)rinse on the direct wound. This was recommended by me to treat many skin wounds in conjunction with neosporin (NON PAIN RELIEF an SILVERSULFDIAZINE) I have used this method on local skin wounds such as nose rub and it works tremendously. I have proof of this in photos as well if you do not believe me. It also aids in the reduction of permanent skin damage. She has used this method on her nose rub female and has worked as well.


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## RETFgirl

correction the first *3* to get and die from the disease was your frogs. The only one to live from your collection was one I rescued from you for $5 which had severe nose rub. Shes all better now and just a carrier of this disease now


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## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Britney, I understand you are frustrated. As I stated before Im willing to bend over backwards to refund you...or replace 5 frogs and even offer a diagnoses refund as well.. But if you continue to bash me like this your keep my hands tied to what im willing to offer you. This is not a good or professional way to handle this. Im sorry. Im doing the best I can.


I hope you understand, but, most of us will advise her against accepting additional frogs.

You housed your RETFs with your Ruby Eyes. This was just a few months ago. You were warned that this was dangerous. Does this ring a bell? 



> If you end up with chytrid and/or ranavirus in your collection, you will lose a lot of frogs before you can stop it... Using rain chambers for multiple taxa increases the risks... and if you aren't aware of it... keep in mind that this contact is one of the driving thoughts behind the high mortality of chytrid, and also one of the things that the petition put forth before the USF&W service to ban all imports, and interstate travel of amphibians that are not certified free of chytrid.... See the discussion here anyone submitting comments about the chytrid petition?... The ruling still hasn't occurred so it can still happen..... So this sort of behavior is a risk to the entire hobby....


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## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> DIAL ANTIBACTERIAL HAND SOAP original (orange brand)rinse on the direct wound. This was recommended by me to treat many skin wounds in conjunction with neosporin (NON PAIN RELIEF an SILVERSULFDIAZINE) I have used this method on local skin wounds such as nose rub and it works tremendously. I have proof of this in photos as well if you do not believe me. It also aids in the reduction of permanent skin damage. She has used this method on her nose rub female and has worked as well.


Was it a veterinarian who recommended using antibacterial hand soap for amphibian wounds?


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## RETFgirl

Yes...I was told to wash them in hand soap and Ignored the request to do it. I finally did it after the 10th time he asked me to but told him I didnt feel it was a good idea. When I did it they acted like I put hot lava on them and fought wildly so I never did it again


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## CJ PELCH

RETFgirl said:


> Cj... I never told you that mine were wild caught. I told you I got them from different breeders and was not 100% sure. In regards to you not knowing if my frogs gave it to your frogs....your 4 frogs were the first to die and show symptoms. I have apologies and you admitting via messaging that you will make good with what happened and that your frogs were wild caught, stressed and that brought out the disease. You also said you were, and I quote "losing hella money over this and to keep good reviews coming" I have you telling me it wasn't contagious, to wash the frogs twice a day in hand soap, and that I can put dart frogs in the old viv and they wont catch the disease. Then you say its red leg, and when I brought out a prior post you posted on the forum regarding red leg in your populations you said that mine didnt have redleg...all in a matter of 5 minutes. I have texts that say youve never had frogs die on you, and another saying you've had "HUNDREDS" of frogs die on you. I can name 20 times you've lied to me. The best one being that my replacement frogs were coming in on Oct 15th and you could not directly ship them to me or get them to me any sooner and had to intercept them (which seemed fishy) But a half hour later you claimed that they are actually in route being shipped in the next few days. You told me you were selling me frogs that had never been bred...but Im pretty sure you were going to breed them before shipping them to me on the 15th. I could go on forever.



CORRECTION ON YOUR END: Frogs never died on me from this condition. 
I said you can put the dart frogs in your newly build vivarium because it was perfect set up for darts and NOT tree frogs. The red leg diagnoses was between me and another breeder based on the statements I made about open red sores on the legs. Yes I ordered new frogs for you from michael Novy. If you want proof of this just call him. If you want your frogs directly shipped to you from him instead of me thats ok by me. But you will need to pick it up at the local airport as he ships SOUTHWEST airlines. Unfortunately I have a total order of 2600.00 worth of frogs coming in and you would have to pay for MUCH higher shipping charges than it would be coming from me due to the fact you have to pay for shipping at the airport pickup. This will conclude any comments from me. I already said im willing to work with you for replacement. Further Bashing of me will not help this case.


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## CJ PELCH

Ok second comment... only one DIED of the disease...you euthanized the other ones i sold you with oralgel before giving them a chance with the medication i purchased for you from DR. FRY.


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## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> CORRECTION ON YOUR END: Frogs never died on me from this condition.
> I said you can put the dart frogs in your newly build vivarium because it was perfect set up for darts and NOT tree frogs. The red leg diagnoses was between me and another breeder based on the statements I made about open red sores on the legs. Yes I ordered new frogs for you from michael Novy. If you want proof of this just call him. If you want your frogs directly shipped to you from him instead of me thats ok by me. But you will need to pick it up at the local airport as he ships SOUTHWEST airlines. Unfortunately I have a total order of 2600.00 worth of frogs coming in and you would have to pay for MUCH higher shipping charges than it would be coming from me due to the fact you have to pay for shipping at the airport pickup. This will conclude any comments from me. I already said im willing to work with you for replacement. Further Bashing of me will not help this case.


RETFgirl, I would be very comfortable receiving frogs directly from Michael Novy. He is well known and respected and has healthy frogs.

CJ, Red Leg is not really a diagnosis. It is a syndrome often associated with husbandry. Or so I've been told by people who know these things 

With out an actual diagnosis, you don't really know what your frog died from. It could well have been the first of several deaths preceded by skin lesions.


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## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> RETFgirl, I would be very comfortable receiving frogs directly from Michael Novy. He is well known and respected and has healthy frogs.
> 
> CJ, Red Leg is not really a diagnosis. It is a syndrome often associated with husbandry. Or so I've been told by people who know these things
> 
> With out an actual diagnosis, you don't really know what your frog died from. It could well have been the first of several deaths preceded by skin lesions.


Yes. I agree.


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## frogface

Maybe Michael would ship RETFgirl's frogs separately. Give her time to get ready for them.


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## RETFgirl

Ill take the frogs from you before you breed them. Kinda confused in why you wanted to hold on to them for a month


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## CJ PELCH

RETFgirl said:


> Ill take the frogs from you before you breed them. Kinda confused in why you wanted to hold on to them for a month


My Finances Brittany the frogs you bought from me were a total of 105 dollars the show for 5 red eye tree frogs..In addition to the meds i bought you and the overnight shipping is 160 dollars and some change. The frogs im buying for you are 320.00. I have to save up for you as my company is in the red right now from buying all these new enclosures and supplies. I wouldn't be holding onto them just awaiting the funding to send your way. When i said im losing money on this YES I am this is why most pet stores HONOR their guarantee. I chose to override mine on this specific situation. 
Technically you are getting ALOT more for the 105 dollars you spent from me. Medication that will last you a year. In addition to a fresh blood line of GREAT FROGS. In regards to the comment who buys wild caught frogs. Well anyone that has a red eye tree frog from petco/pet kingdom/ ruby eye tree frog ...they are all wild caught. Its pretty common. I even offered you your 105 dollars back..and you said no.


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## RETFgirl

I would be honored to own mr. Novys frogs... But I don't want them a mo after you get them. If this can be arranged I can be at peace with you


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## CJ PELCH

Ill see if I can arrange a prepaid for DIRECT SHIPPING...but are you ready for them? Whats your local airport that southwest airlines has. You will need to pick it up there.


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## RETFgirl

You said they were being shipped to you on the 15th and there would be an immediate turn around and I would receive them next day shipping from you. Anyways...I'll stop bringing up the 12354454 lies you told and perhaps pay for shipping of the frogs. Pm me if you can arrange this


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## RETFgirl

And I will buy a exo terra at petco tomorrow. Just let me know!


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## CJ PELCH

RETFgirl said:


> You said they were being shipped to you on the 15th and there would be an immediate turn around and I would receive them next day shipping from you. Anyways...I'll stop bringing up the 12354454 lies you told and perhaps pay for shipping of the frogs. Pm me if you can arrange this



I changed this due to funding being available earlier than anticipated.. These are not lies Brittany. I stated that because being military Im paid on the 1st and the 15th of every month. TURNS out i have funding before hand. But thanks for everything! You made my day SOO much better. Support your troups. =)


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## Scott

Can I recommend that you two taking further communication private?

Either of you are free to let me know if this thread needs to be reopened for any reason.

As is - thread closed.

s


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## oddlot

There has been some inquiries about adding some valid points,so I'm reopening this thread,but if it gets out of hand it will be closed so be civil when posting please.


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## Groundhog

Thank you. 

This is a profoundly grave situation, and some of what happened here needs to be addressed. We all know that in medicine--human or veterinary--the best approach is prevention, through good health and hygiene practices.

I would like to do this without getting personal, but this may not be possible here. 

--Sometimes we confuse enthusiasm for competence. They are, unfortunately, not synonymous concepts. Saying "I love my frogs" is not enough; we all need to be diligent and careful. Remember, these are amphibians--with their permeable skins they can be even more delicate than other pets; 
--CJ: On a couple of the "Tree Frogs" threads, you came out with several ideas/comments, which, quite frankly, had us floored. Some of your ideas about how to induce breeding behavior in Leptopelis were almost other-worldly; some readers thought you a troll (Personally, I was so stunned, I did not know what to think..) Ex: Adjusting oxygen/nitrogen ratios?!? Dude, seriously?!?
--You admitted *in writing* to allowing WC Agalychnis and WC Leptopelis to use the same rain chamber. You must be aware that WC _Leptopelis ulugurensis_ are a high risk carrier/vector for chytrid. This is not a rhetorical question: Where did you get the idea that this was an acceptable husbandry practice? 
(Full disclosure: I admit I am not an absolute stickler on mixing. I would, for example, have no problem allowing healthy CB _Hyla chrysocelis_ and _Hyla gratiosa_ to use the same chamber (after cleaning, of course); maybe even _Agalychnis callydrias _and _A. annae_. But I would never allow say, a CB Milk frog and WC _Rhacophorus reinwardtii_.)
--You thought you had bred your Leptopelis--got on here to proudly announce it; then you realized that you confused the eggs with Agalychnis eggs--then basically admitted you were hammered when you "observed' your rain chamber. Do you actually think that anyone would consider this responsible amphibian husbandry?; 
--You need to be aware that stunts like this can have have grave epimediological consequences. That these can facilitate an epidemic in the trade/hobby--of potentially disastrous proportions? Have you not seen the report on chytrid transmission (and the associated policy ramifications)? CJ, you must believe us when we tell you that this situation is that serious. 
--And I simply cannot let this one go: CJ, English is your first language--enough with the sloppy spelling and grammar. It really does make it difficult to take you seriously. 

I also wrote to RETFgirl and explained that:

--Never try to shortcut standard quarantine protocols (Again, I am not an absolutist. For my birthday, there was a batch of gorgeous young barking tree frogs--kept by themselves--at a Manhattan Petland. Been there for over a month. Said what the hell, and got one. I did put it in my vivarium with my anoles. But if tomorrow, I came into 1.1 CB Agalychnis annae, they are not going near this vivarium!);
--Always know what you are acquiring, and who you are buying from;
--If you are new, there are no shortcuts on the learning curve. I strongly advised her to buy and read Devin Edmond's _Tree Frogs_ and De Vosjoli, et al. _Care and Maintenance of Popular Tree Frogs_. 

** Seriously--I believe that every beginning and serious herpetoculturist should have some standard text and classic books in their home library. Books such as Devin's book, the Advanced Vivarium Systems books, Elke Zimmerman's _Breeding Terrarium Animals_, etc. Yes, some books are cursory, others may be dated. But there is no substitute for the depth that comes from doing some serious $#@! reading. And read the whole $#@! book--not just the chapter on the species yo may fancy. With broader knowledge and greater depth, you will be able to put the information you learn into context. One has to generalize before one can focus. 

For example: I consider myself a literate, intelligent man—but if two dudes were standing in front of me arguing the proper conjugation of Finnish verbs, I’d be useless—I have no background, no frame of reference to evaluate the argument. Same for animal husbandry: Coming onto DB, “Hi I’m new, what do I need to know?!??” does not cut it—how do you know how to assess what you are being told? Get it? 

*Mod:* Earlier in the thread, Ed was good enough to do posts on pathology prep, quarantine protocols, pathogen transmission protocols (i.e., when I might have to break down a tank.) Are these/can these be done as new threads for beginners in “General health?”(I detest the term “newbie”—almost as much as “brom”…)

That is all for now. The Groundhog has spoken.


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## Ed

CJ PELCH said:


> DIAL ANTIBACTERIAL HAND SOAP original (orange brand)rinse on the direct wound.


I have to say that looking at the MSDS and how "soaps" function with respect to amphibians this is nothing but a bad idea... In addition to the fact that the soap removes secretions that the frogs use to keep their skin moist and protected from microorganisms, at least one of the ingredients (Cocamidopropyl Betaine) is considered to be toxic to aquatic organisms ( a LC50 as low as 1 ppm in a 96 hour exposure period).... 

In general, the use of *any* soaps or detergents is not only contradictory when cleaning the enclosures of amphibians but should not be used on the animals themselves.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## CJ PELCH

I have learned a lot here on my end. Trust me, it wont go without serious revisions to my breeding and Previous RECKLESS HUSBANDRY. 

Either way, I now have far more tanks thanks to the roaches breeding like crazy and funding additional tanks for me. THANK GOD. Was so short on cash and didnt want to abandon the frogs. I now can say I properly do everything for the proper husbandry for each specific species that was mentioned earlier with the exception of the Ruby eyes which I no longer keep. My last one just got stolen out of my house by whom I thought was a friend about about a month ago. I thought it died because I couldnt find the damn thing. Only to find out my X friend took it because he "LIKED IT SO MUCH"

I no longer work with wild caught frogs now with the exception of this last red eye that just finalized Chytridiomycosis Treatment. "Lamasil" baths. 
My treatments were as follows:

"LAMISIL" Spray and got quarantine tanks ready. Bleached and heavily rinsed and then air dried... bleach measurements were 2 parts bleach 9 parts water.
I sprayed Lamisil into a cup for 5-7 seconds into cup and waited for 5 minutes for alcohol to evaporate.
I then measured 220ml of dechlorinated water and put into a soaking dish.
Next I put 1cc's of of LAMISIL spray into 220ml of dechlorinated water into soaking dish. The watered down lamasil turned into a milky color. I stirred until evenly blended. 
I soak the frog completely for 5-7 minutes a day for 14 days. 6 minutes was her average. She was really easy to work with she didnt mind soaking to much...some days she was a pain and Id have to reenter into the treatment bath. 
After the treatment I put her in her first quarantine tank with dusted crickets. Due to the stress the frog she didn't eat for a few days. She's back on track now though on her own routine. *thankfully*
On the second day I did the same treatment as the day before, only this time when I was done I put her in the second quarantine tank and retreated the first tank with 2 parts bleach and 9 parts water once again. I didnt want to risk re-exposure.
She just finished her 14 days of treatment and will sit in her solitude quarantine for another 2 weeks until i get her retested through Research Associates Laboratory

At this point despite all the hard lessons I learned. I would like everyone to wish her luck and myself. This was the HARDEST lesson to learn yet. However a very important one. 

Once she tests negative she will be an office pet for me. She has been with me for a long time now..and did the treatments tremendously and I really hope for the best with her. 

I think the worst is over, but who knows. Im hoping for the best and I've done my corner of shame for sometime now trying to nurture her back to full health despite her not showing any symptoms of the disease. Shes such a trooper.

RETF girl got her full refund of $105.00 dollars for all 4 frogs she bought from me and I even threw in another $35.00 for the death of one of her frogs for the inconvenience on top of free overnight silversulfadiazine for the female she got from me that she quarantined properly that had nose rub. I will say I have attempted to do my best here and will continue to monitor her situation. TOTAL of 140.00 refund plus $35.00 silversulfadiazine treatment and $11.00 overnight delivery. REFUND WAS ISSUED BY CASHIERS CHECK UNDER MY PERSONAL NAME ON MONDAY EVENING.

That is all for now... Im quite tired and I shall pass out soon.


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## Judy S

Back to the subject of testing for bacterial issues postmortem...if you have a frog that is exhibiting similiar symptoms as these frogs with the obvious skin lesions, would taking swabs with Q-tips and freezing those in a sterile type container give a chance for proper diagnosis?? There would be a more immediate possibility for diagnosis before decomp gets too far... And I had followed the saga of the Ruby Eyes with great interest as I have a breeding group...and found that whole episode quite sad...I had been advised that they are from a part of the world where cytrid is endemic...so I did get my group tested...and after a positive diagnosis, treated and retested. My conscience is clear that the group is cleared. But if I were to successfully breed them, would randomly group test to be sure.


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## frogface

Judy I don't know the answers regarding testing a deceased animal for chytrid but I don't think freezing is a good idea.


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## Halter

frogface said:


> Judy I don't know the answers regarding testing a deceased animal for chytrid but I don't think freezing is a good idea.


Agreed, I discussed this earlier with i (believe) frogface and that freezing breaks down organs really rapidly, making it very hard to test for anything. The best thing to do with a deceased animal is to put it in the fridge and get it sent to a lab asap for a necropsy
But RETF girl, i am sorry you went through that. I know it first hand it is very sad (hell my 1.1 "cb" retfs even went through qt and still ended up getting it). I am glad the person that sent you those frogs came forward and refunded you. Hopefully the seller, and everyone else in this thread have learned something. I sure have. It scares me from one persons negligence that a whole collection could be virtually wiped out. Scary thought.
Best of luck to you.


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## Cfrog

CJ PELCH said:


> RETF girl got her full refund of $105.00 dollars for all 4 frogs she bought from me and I even threw in another $35.00 for the death of one of her frogs ........ REFUND WAS ISSUED BY CASHIERS CHECK UNDER MY PERSONAL NAME ON MONDAY EVENING.


**As R.E.T.F. run between $35 - $75 (froglet - adult) and the way it is worded seems like an arrogant attempt to boost about refunding her for her orig. frog, last time I bought a frog from a reptile store or a local breeder the priced didn't include stress, death and contamination. When a person makes a mistake, own up and move on. It is best to apologize (if you mean it), and not try to blame others for your bad choices, or act like some how you are doing her a favor. Just my thoughts from personal experience.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Judy S said:


> Back to the subject of testing for bacterial issues postmortem...if you have a frog that is exhibiting similiar symptoms as these frogs with the obvious skin lesions, would taking swabs with Q-tips and freezing those in a sterile type container give a chance for proper diagnosis?? There would be a more immediate possibility for diagnosis before decomp gets too far... And I had followed the saga of the Ruby Eyes with great interest as I have a breeding group...and found that whole episode quite sad...I had been advised that they are from a part of the world where cytrid is endemic...so I did get my group tested...and after a positive diagnosis, treated and retested. My conscience is clear that the group is cleared. But if I were to successfully breed them, would randomly group test to be sure.


DO NOT FREEZE.

you can place samples, the body, etc in a cooler, fridge, but don't freeze it. Freezing May destroy your sample or the ability to correctly diagnose the sample. Same goes for fecals, don't freeze them.

If you're sending off samples, check with the lab as to an acceptable preservative/fixative solution.


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## CJ PELCH

Yes dont freeze


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## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> **As R.E.T.F. run between $35 - $75 (froglet - adult) and the way it is worded seems like an arrogant attempt to boost about refunding her for her orig. frog, last time I bought a frog from a reptile store or a local breeder the priced didn't include stress, death and contamination. When a person makes a mistake, own up and move on. It is best to apologize (if you mean it), and not try to blame others for your bad choices, or act like some how you are doing her a favor. Just my thoughts from personal experience.


Oh im not boasting..RETFGIRL demanded 175.00 from me $70.00 more than what she paid for to begin with in additon to the medical treatments I provided.... she wanted me to replace more than that. I stated the exact amount for frogface as she was following and probably more proffessionaly involved than anyone else here. So please dont judge me on that. That was specifically meant for her (frogface). This was also an agreement we came to between myself and the op. Please keep the negative comments away from this point on as this matter is 100% resolved.


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## Cfrog

CJ my comment was not intended to be rude or negative, trust me...you don't want to see me rude. I simply stated how it was WORDED seemed boastful. If your comment there was intended to frogface maybe a PM would have been better. Also while I am not taking sides and do not know what you andRETF girl discussed privately, anything "demanded" could be understood given what you took from her... you do understand you caused her hurt, frustration, concern, lose....etc. You took more than just a few bucks or a frogs life, and while both are huge....you took her trust then proceeded to argue with her in open forum about it. Your emotions played a big part but even in that many of us got to see you two in a different light. Like I said before, own your mistakes when they happen, everyone me included and don't act like you have done the world a favor. Trust me, having someone say "you got screwed but really I did you a favor" doesn't give anyone the warm fuzzes inside.


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## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Oh im not boasting..RETFGIRL demanded 175.00 from me $70.00 more than what she paid for to begin with in additon to the medical treatments I provided.... she wanted me to replace more than that. I stated the exact amount for frogface as she was following and probably more proffessionaly involved than anyone else here. So please dont judge me on that. That was specifically meant for her (frogface). This was also an agreement we came to between myself and the op. Please keep the negative comments away from this point on as this matter is 100% resolved.


I appreciate that you came back to give us an update and to let us know the matter is resolved. However, I would still like to hear from RETFgirl that she also considers it resolved. 

I think many of us have learned valuable lessons here. We know to QT, we *KNOW* this. But how often do we get ahead of ourselves and think 'it will be ok this one time' and 'they look so healthy!' and 'I know that guy from the Internet so he must be a great frog breeder!'

eta: by 'proffesionally involved' I think he means butting in


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## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> Oh im not boasting..RETFGIRL demanded 175.00 from me $70.00 more than what she paid for to begin with in additon to the medical treatments I provided.... she wanted me to replace more than that. I stated the exact amount for frogface as she was following and probably more proffessionaly involved than anyone else here. So please dont judge me on that. That was specifically meant for her (frogface). This was also an agreement we came to between myself and the op. Please keep the negative comments away from this point on as this matter is 100% resolved.


I wouldn't necessarily consider this 100% resolved either.Have you contacted any and all the other people you sold frogs to too,both at the show and privately?The potential that you still may be spreading this major disease without the others even knowing it could cause an epidemic of great proportions and huge consequences.This is not a disease to take lightly!You're not going to tell me she is the only one either.


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## Splash&Dash

oddlot said:


> The potential that you still may be spreading this major disease without the others even knowing it could cause an epidemic of great proportions and huge consequences.This is not a disease to take lightly!You're not going to tell me she is the only one either.


was there ever an actual identification on what the culprit was?


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## frogface

Splash&Dash said:


> was there ever an actual identification on what the culprit was?


From CJ's post: I no longer work with wild caught frogs now with the exception of this last red eye that just finalized Chytridiomycosis Treatment.


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## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> I have to say that looking at the MSDS and how "soaps" function with respect to amphibians this is nothing but a bad idea... In addition to the fact that the soap removes secretions that the frogs use to keep their skin moist and protected from microorganisms, at least one of the ingredients (Cocamidopropyl Betaine) is considered to be toxic to aquatic organisms ( a LC50 as low as 1 ppm in a 96 hour exposure period)....
> 
> In general, the use of *any* soaps or detergents is not only contradictory when cleaning the enclosures of amphibians but should not be used on the animals themselves....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Additionally, many of the DIAL branded antibacterial soaps contain the active ingredient Triclosan which has known amphibian toxicity issues (especially developmental). I've spent the past four years conducting research on the toxic effects of the antimicrobials Triclosan and Triclocarban on aquatic invertebrates and amphibians. I can tell you that amphibians+Triclosan=very bad idea.


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## Judy S

Frogface and Halter...I think you missed my point...if swabs were taken upon discovery of death...just the swabs would be frozen, so there would be no decomposition of the actual body...and the swabs may be revealing as far as any contagious organism.. The freezing of the actual body of the frog for most of us normal people is probably a prolonged process and cannot capture the pathology of death....I'm just winging it here folks...


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## Halter

edwardsatc said:


> Additionally, many of the DIAL branded antibacterial soaps contain the active ingredient Triclosan which has known amphibian toxicity issues (especially developmental). I've spent the past four years conducting research on the toxic effects of the antimicrobials Triclosan and Triclocarban on aquatic invertebrates and amphibians. I can tell you that amphibians+Triclosan=very bad idea.


Really? Not to stray from the current topic, but im curious. What type of tests did you do validate that hypothesis? Interesting really. I myself have heard that myself, and i have always wondered why. 

But from what everyone else said, it is rather scary to know that there are a TON of other frogs out there from those adults that are carriers that probably dozens of people dont even know that they have. I mean, CJ you said you sold at shows right? you sold these animals at a show? 
That is so scary people come up and touch your table, look at the frogs then put them back- that is just an epidemic waiting to happen...I really hope you were able/if not ARE going to try and at least contact the people you sold those frogs too and get them tested. Because of this YOU could be responsible for wiping out dozens if not hundreds of peoples entire collections!

..I am not trying to be mean, but we need to protect our hobby and protect the people in it!


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## frogface

Judy S said:


> Frogface and Halter...I think you missed my point...if swabs were taken upon discovery of death...just the swabs would be frozen, so there would be no decomposition of the actual body...and the swabs may be revealing as far as any contagious organism.. The freezing of the actual body of the frog for most of us normal people is probably a prolonged process and cannot capture the pathology of death....I'm just winging it here folks...


Ok I see what you're saying. However, I still think freezing is probably not a good idea and that the same principles regarding break down of tissue would apply to the sample. I am no scientist though. Maybe contact one of the labs and ask?


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Judy S said:


> Frogface and Halter...I think you missed my point...if swabs were taken upon discovery of death...just the swabs would be frozen, so there would be no decomposition of the actual body...and the swabs may be revealing as far as any contagious organism.. The freezing of the actual body of the frog for most of us normal people is probably a prolonged process and cannot capture the pathology of death....I'm just winging it here folks...


The swab tests for Db are looking for DNA. You don't even have to swab the frog dead or alive. Swabbing their environment (tank) and sending that in should provide the results you are looking for, or not looking for as the case may be.


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## Halter

frogface said:


> Ok I see what you're saying. However, I still think freezing is probably not a good idea and that the same principles regarding break down of tissue would apply to the sample. I am no scientist though. Maybe contact one of the labs and ask?


I did misinterpret what you said. I actually would like to know about that as well, if freezing a swab would be detrimental. Thank you for clarifying.


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Really? Not to stray from the current topic, but im curious. What type of tests did you do validate that hypothesis? Interesting really. I myself have heard that myself, and i have always wondered why.
> 
> But from what everyone else said, it is rather scary to know that there are a TON of other frogs out there from those adults that are carriers that probably dozens of people dont even know that they have. I mean, CJ you said you sold at shows right? you sold these animals at a show?
> That is so scary people come up and touch your table, look at the frogs then put them back- that is just an epidemic waiting to happen...I really hope you were able/if not ARE going to try and at least contact the people you sold those frogs too and get them tested. Because of this YOU could be responsible for wiping out dozens if not hundreds of peoples entire collections!
> 
> ..I am not trying to be mean, but we need to protect our hobby and protect the people in it!


I sold at one show of those yes... There was 1 customer that bought rubies and 3 customers (RETFGIRL included) that bought red eyes from me. I have addressed 3 out of the 4. The 4th customer (I am not able to get in touch with) bought a pair for one tank I helped them set up the tank and it was their first frogs they ever bought. If I see them ( I will recognize them I will address the matter IMMEDIATELY) 

Please understand If I knew they were sick i would have never sold them. I have had these red eyes for a year which i purchased from pet kingdom of san diego for 49.99 each and never showed symptoms of any sickness. If they did I would have never bought or sold them. However this was my first time learning of chytridiomycosis post the red eye ruby incident. I am trying my best efforts here. Please forgive me.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

CJ PELCH said:


> I sold at one show of those yes... They was 1 customer that bought rubies and 3 customers (RETFGIRL included) that bought red eyes from me. I have addressed 3 out of the 4. The 4th customer (I am not able to get in touch with) bought a pair for one tank I helped them set up the tank and it was their first frogs they ever bought. If I see them ( I will recognize them I will address the matter IMMEDIATELY)
> 
> Please understand If I knew they were sick i would have never sold them. I have had these red eyes for a year which i purchased from pet kingdom of san diego for 49.99 each and never showed symptoms of any sickness. If they did I would have never bought or sold them. However this was my first time learning of chytridiomycosis post the red eye ruby incident. I am trying my best efforts here. Please forgive me.


Perhaps something else in your collection infected these frogs. 
How are your husbandry practices?


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Agreed, I discussed this earlier with i (believe) frogface and that freezing breaks down organs really rapidly, making it very hard to test for anything. The best thing to do with a deceased animal is to put it in the fridge and get it sent to a lab asap for a necropsy
> But RETF girl, i am sorry you went through that. I know it first hand it is very sad (hell my 1.1 "cb" retfs even went through qt and still ended up getting it). I am glad the person that sent you those frogs came forward and refunded you. Hopefully the seller, and everyone else in this thread have learned something. I sure have. It scares me from one persons negligence that a whole collection could be virtually wiped out. Scary thought.
> Best of luck to you.


Halter,

This situation also could have been prevented if the OP actually quarantined the frogs instead of putting them with her others. The sickness would have just stuck with the 3 that I sold to her. Her 4th one is still very much alive and healthy (with the exception of possible chytrid.)
I gave her all the routes to properly get her frog tested at Research Associates Laboratory and as far as I know she has not gotten the frog tested. However since she euthanized them with oragel before even attempting a legit treatment it made it even worse to even get solid test results. Based off what the technitian said at the lab was that the frog most likely died from a disease unrelated to chytridomychosis ..however the frogs most likely have been a carrier and due to the immune system being weakened by the fungus it allowed this unknown sickeness grab a foothold. The actual disease that killed the frog is still unknown.


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## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> I sold at one show of those yes... They was 1 customer that bought rubies and 3 customers (RETFGIRL included) that bought red eyes from me. I have addressed 3 out of the 4. The 4th customer (I am not able to get in touch with) bought a pair for one tank I helped them set up the tank and it was their first frogs they ever bought. If I see them ( I will recognize them I will address the matter IMMEDIATELY)
> 
> Please understand If I knew they were sick i would have never sold them. I have had these red eyes for a year which i purchased from pet kingdom of san diego for 49.99 each and never showed symptoms of any sickness. If they did I would have never bought or sold them. However this was my first time learning of chytridiomycosis post the red eye ruby incident. I am trying my best efforts here. Please forgive me.


What about all the white tree frogs, and the milky tree frogs that you sold. With what you have told us cross contamination can happy very quickly. I just want to clarify something. When did you put your rubys in with your red eyes? 6 months ago? a year ago? It could of happened sooner even than that. Hell this could of started the moment the rubys came into your facility.

My point is this: every single frog you sold in the past year, of 6 months or when ever is a carrier. Probably ever since you got the rubys in the possession, or when they were introduced into the rain chamber w/ the reds. Even though the ones you sold prior to RETFgirl were healthy *they are still carriers*
your whites are probably carriers, your milkys are probably carriers. It concerns me this much because I know that you have sold more than 4 frogs since the Red eyes even came in contact with the rubys

I am making a big assumption that your other frogs are carriers, but if you handled your other frogs after messing with the rubys or reds w/o washing your hands-they got it. Or if you touched their lid/ tank for feeding, then fed the others-they got it. 

You could be spreading this disease rampantly for months without even knowing it!
CJ i am really not trying to be rude, or mean but i really hope you understand how *serious* of a situation you have on your hands.


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## CJ PELCH

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Perhaps something else in your collection infected these frogs.
> How are your husbandry practices?


Proper husbandry is a tough subject... However the enclosure they were in was a year round Rainchamber /live vivarium combination. Half land half water. 
I cleaned the tank daily for poops and dead crickets, and did water changes every month along with a FULL BREAK Down of the tank. 2 Parts Bleach 9 parts water to disinfect. Unfortunately, I did scrub the cork pieces with the bleach mix which i later learned was a bad idea. So i just soak them in the Green disinfectant spray that I get from LLL reptile. The bad part was I did put the rubies eyes and red eyes together when i broke my second 80 gallon vivarium in the moving process. It was a bad decision and very much paid the price for it.


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## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> From CJ's post: I no longer work with wild caught frogs now with the exception of this last red eye that just finalized Chytridiomycosis Treatment.


ahh, I thought that was just a prophylactic treatment or something he was dealing with separate from this

Thanks for the clarification


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## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> The bad part was I did put the rubies eyes and red eyes together when i broke my second 80 gallon vivarium in the moving process. It was a bad decision and very much paid the price for it.


Ill find the thread on here---You put them in that rainchamber to try and "breed" them, not because your tank broke.


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## Splash&Dash

Halter said:


> Ill find the thread on here---You put them in that rainchamber to try and "breed" them, not because your tank broke.


it was the thread where he was claiming to have bred the rubies.


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## frogface

Halter said:


> Ill find the thread on here---You put them in that rainchamber to try and "breed" them, not because your tank broke.


Here's one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tr...ye-tree-frog-letopelis-uluguruensis-eggs.html

ETA: when a tank breaks, that's when you go to Target and get a plastic tub until you get a new tank set up. You do not put the frogs from the broken tank into another frog's tank.


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## Halter

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tr...ye-tree-frog-letopelis-uluguruensis-eggs.html

Directly from the top of page 4
Im going to come clean on this.... its the worst feeling in the fricken world... I house both my red eyes and ruby eyes together for 2 days... WHY DO YOU ASK?

*My ruby eyes were in a 10 gallon Vert tank... 18x 18 x 24. THey were not very happy based on how they burrowed all the time and what not. So i moved them to my 80 gallon rain chamber live vivarium combo with my RED EYES*. (i know mixing species is never recomended and i totaly support that idea,* im just waiting for my second 80 gallon vert to arrive.)* the rubys started barking on the regular moving around and acting like a real tree frog for once and i was like awesome!!! they house well!!! and they act normal again. When i turned the rain chamber on that night... i thought nothing off it but the beatiful chirps red eyes and barking of the rubys..,,, 

*The next day i noticed 11 groups of eggs... some where white...some were blue.... so i was like OMG its the same color blue as the bellys on the ruby eyes.*.. and instantly assumed they were ruby eye eggs...when i just looked at the eggs today and developement REALLY CLOSE ... i noticed al the developments were the exact same despite the coloration differentials...So its still a mystery...im now lead to believe these are all red eye tree frog eggs.....Like i said im truely embarrassed and i am just going to sit in my corner and have a few beers in shame) I appologise for this. Although this is rediculas...It was a nice learning experience....despite the embarrassment and I still plan on doign the rain chamber for the other guys since they loved it so much... 

IN ADDITION...two of my females were gravid....but now they are not...which is also why i assumed they were ruby eggs...so now i dont know what to do cause i cant find eggs near the soil by the water at all or by the waterfall... but i did see the rubys in ampexis so now im so lost....

So you were waiting on a second 80 gallon to arrive but you just said that you broke the 80 that they were "previously" in, which you state here is a 12 x 12x 18 or whatever.....

I cant believe that I did all that work and found it. But dont sit here and lie. Its upsetting me that you are still lying and dont seem to understand how serious of a situation this is.


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tr...ye-tree-frog-letopelis-uluguruensis-eggs.html
> 
> Directly from the top of page 4
> Im going to come clean on this.... its the worst feeling in the fricken world... I house both my red eyes and ruby eyes together for 2 days... WHY DO YOU ASK?
> 
> *My ruby eyes were in a 10 gallon Vert tank... 18x 18 x 24. THey were not very happy based on how they burrowed all the time and what not. So i moved them to my 80 gallon rain chamber live vivarium combo with my RED EYES*. (i know mixing species is never recomended and i totaly support that idea,* im just waiting for my second 80 gallon vert to arrive.)* the rubys started barking on the regular moving around and acting like a real tree frog for once and i was like awesome!!! they house well!!! and they act normal again. When i turned the rain chamber on that night... i thought nothing off it but the beatiful chirps red eyes and barking of the rubys..,,,
> 
> *The next day i noticed 11 groups of eggs... some where white...some were blue.... so i was like OMG its the same color blue as the bellys on the ruby eyes.*.. and instantly assumed they were ruby eye eggs...when i just looked at the eggs today and developement REALLY CLOSE ... i noticed al the developments were the exact same despite the coloration differentials...So its still a mystery...im now lead to believe these are all red eye tree frog eggs.....Like i said im truely embarrassed and i am just going to sit in my corner and have a few beers in shame) I appologise for this. Although this is rediculas...It was a nice learning experience....despite the embarrassment and I still plan on doign the rain chamber for the other guys since they loved it so much...
> 
> IN ADDITION...two of my females were gravid....but now they are not...which is also why i assumed they were ruby eggs...so now i dont know what to do cause i cant find eggs near the soil by the water at all or by the waterfall... but i did see the rubys in ampexis so now im so lost....
> 
> So you were waiting on a second 80 gallon to arrive but you just said that you broke the 80 that they were "previously" in, which you state here is a 12 x 12x 18 or whatever.....
> 
> I cant believe that I did all that work and found it. But dont sit here and lie. Its upsetting me that you are still lying and dont seem to understand how serious of a situation this is.



There is no lieing here.. I even refer you to a person that visited my house over this specific instance. Talk to DEMON AMPHIBIANS on the frog forum...he knows the whole situation upfront and was there for the whole processing.


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## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> Here's one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tr...ye-tree-frog-letopelis-uluguruensis-eggs.html
> 
> ETA: when a tank breaks, that's when you go to Target and get a plastic tub until you get a new tank set up. You do not put the frogs from the broken tank into another frog's tank.


I know that now frogface...didnt know at the time...

Halter I was going to try to breed them since I noticed they went into amplexis the same night.. There should be photos as well to show they were in amplexus. However as well all now know...nothing came of it.
Also...I had all my frogs tested after this specific situation...all frogs came back negative with the exception of the one female red eye.


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## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> There is no lieing here.. I even refer you to a person that visited my house over this specific instance. Talk to DEMON AMPHIBIANS on the frog forum...he knows the whole situation upfront and was there for the whole processing.


Really because i see a direct contradiction with your excuse to put the ruby and reds together to rusty in comparison to what you put in your attempting to breed uluguruensis thread. And you never answered any of my questions regarding my other posts?
Or are you trying to tiptoe around this too?


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## Halter

CJ the reason I am saying these things to you is because i am directly *concerned* that you involuntarily spread this disease around, and wont even answer questions about your husbandry practices(besides breaking down the vivs) or how you deal with your other specimens. What happened here can be a serious problem. I think that every frog in your collection is/can be a carrier and with the responses we are getting I am getting the vibe that refunding the owner and contact the 4 you sold is ok. What about the hundreds of others you have sold prior? Hell for all we know this little strain of virus you help spread could end up here in PA and mess with many others frogs. The responses that you are giving, it seems that it does not matter to you!
I did talk with Demon Amphibians--the only thing he did was confirm that they were ruby eye eggs-"because he saw them with his own eyes" and then a few posts later on that forum you said they were infertile. Then we go over to this board and see that you mistook them for red eye eggs or whatever. 
These inconsistencies are pretty scary considering you call yourself a business.


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## jacobi

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> How are your husbandry practices?


He washes them with handsoap.


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## jacobi

Why are shows allowing people who cannot prove that their animals are "clean" to vend? I'm envisioning bigger problems down the road if behavior like this is allowed to continue.


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## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> He washes them with handsoap.


That was for the female that was post surgery. She is the one that I have now.


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> CJ the reason I am saying these things to you is because i am directly *concerned* that you involuntarily spread this disease around, and wont even answer questions about your husbandry practices(besides breaking down the vivs) or how you deal with your other specimens. What happened here can be a serious problem. I think that every frog in your collection is/can be a carrier and with the responses we are getting I am getting the vibe that refunding the owner and contact the 4 you sold is ok. What about the hundreds of others you have sold prior? Hell for all we know this little strain of virus you help spread could end up here in PA and mess with many others frogs. The responses that you are giving, it seems that it does not matter to you!
> I did talk with Demon Amphibians--the only thing he did was confirm that they were ruby eye eggs-"because he saw them with his own eyes" and then a few posts later on that forum you said they were infertile. Then we go over to this board and see that you mistook them for red eye eggs or whatever.
> These inconsistencies are pretty scary considering you call yourself a business.


I already said they all tested negative but the red eye...or did you overlook that post?


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> CJ the reason I am saying these things to you is because i am directly *concerned* that you involuntarily spread this disease around, and wont even answer questions about your husbandry practices(besides breaking down the vivs) or how you deal with your other specimens. What happened here can be a serious problem. I think that every frog in your collection is/can be a carrier and with the responses we are getting I am getting the vibe that refunding the owner and contact the 4 you sold is ok. What about the hundreds of others you have sold prior? Hell for all we know this little strain of virus you help spread could end up here in PA and mess with many others frogs. The responses that you are giving, it seems that it does not matter to you!
> I did talk with Demon Amphibians--the only thing he did was confirm that they were ruby eye eggs-"because he saw them with his own eyes" and then a few posts later on that forum you said they were infertile. Then we go over to this board and see that you mistook them for red eye eggs or whatever.
> These inconsistencies are pretty scary considering you call yourself a business.


You need to message him....he has been witnessing all my frog breeding and keeping all year personally every week.. ALso you reading his response posts is not "TALKING TO HIM" seriously get his number he will talk to you.


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## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> Why are shows allowing people who cannot prove that their animals are "clean" to vend? I'm envisioning bigger problems down the road if behavior like this is allowed to continue.


Why don't you ban all the pet stores in the process? You want proof for yourself...buy the frog... test any one of my frogs for yourself. I guarantee ANY frog will test negative from any of my keepings... At ANY of my upcoming shows... 

This isnt BEHAVIOR...its was a mistake... jeeezems crimony. DROP IT ALREADY. MODS>...lock the thread....further negativity towards this is just plain bullying...private me for further info or get in touch with DEMON AMPHIBIANS off the frog forum.


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## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> I already said they all tested negative but the red eye...or did you overlook that post?


CJ, it's hard to take anything you say seriously, since there is always this layer of mistruths surrounding it. That was the case with the ruby eye thread, the beginning of this thread, and now again. Personally, I would just assume the worst and work from there


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## CJ PELCH

Sent you a message splash...


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## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> Sent you a message splash...


given the fact the you have constantly made these contradictory statements publicly and they are easily reference, like the above, I would say it's probably best to make your case publicly, as well.


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## Cfrog

I think it is safe to safe that no one would buy your frogs, have them tested, or anything else. As far as bullying, I see concerned hobbyists who's entire collections could potential be in danger. Yes there are the few sarcastic comments,based on your contradictions and bouncing around topic. My advice, don't try arguing with people, if asked a question give a straight answer...not well if she only, but I. That is where you are opening yourself up. We want facts, not your blaming or hem-ha-ing. Did you mix frogs :yes
Did you wash them in soap o) : yes....
easy...

Again I do thank you for speaking on this thread, you could have hidden and not publicly told your side of the story.


----------



## cowboy232350

But he has stated he made a mistake and doesn't mix tanks or have wc frogs. He has contacted the people he has sold to at the show to make right. The 100's he has sold would be hard for anyone to keep track of but from what he is saying I am sure if they contacted him about it, he would try to make it right. Why are we keeping up with this? This isn't even the subject of the thread. We are now talking about a vendor and their set up but we aren't even posting in the vendor feed back.


----------



## jacobi

cowboy232350 said:


> This isn't even the subject of the thread. We are now talking about a vendor and their set up but we aren't even posting in the vendor feed back.


Actually, most people here are more concerned about the spread of a virulent disease that might be chytrid. CJ is the one who keeps on bringing up his business practices. That his story constantly changes makes it more difficult to take what he says as truth, and consequently has people concerned about the steps being taken in regards to stopping the spread of the disease. That is why I'm not addressing anything he says. It doesn't matter, and I'm not interested in arguing. I do agree with you however. This thread should be locked. There's really no point in going around in circles. This should be stickied about the importance of doing research before anyone buys an animal.


----------



## Halter

jacobi said:


> Actually, most people here are more concerned about the spread of a virulent disease that might be chytrid. CJ is the one who keeps on bringing up his business practices. That his story constantly changes makes it more difficult to take what he says as truth, and consequently has people concerned about the steps being taken in regards to stopping the spread of the disease. That is why I'm not addressing anything he says. It doesn't matter, and I'm not interested in arguing. I do agree with you however. This thread should be locked. There's really no point in going around in circles. This should be stickied about the importance of doing research before anyone buys an animal.


Exactly this. We as keepers need to be sure something like this is handled appropriately.


----------



## Splash&Dash

jacobi said:


> Actually, most people here are more concerned about the spread of a virulent disease that might be chytrid.


short of documentation, it's hard for me even to accept that claim. Which is sad, given the circumstances


----------



## CJ PELCH

Splash&Dash said:


> short of documentation, it's hard for me even to accept that claim. Which is sad, given the circumstances


I gave RETF GIRL. The link and paperwork to get her frogs tested @ Research Associates Laboratory. So far she has not gotten them tested. Which I am very curious as to why after she claims this is a sickness my frogs gave hers, but yet she never tested her frogs she had and never quarantined mine from hers so there is NO ACCURATE way at this point in time to see where the root of the problem laid other than her claims. ALL I KNOW FOR CERTAIN... is I had one female out of that entire tank that had chytrid and has been treated and still under quarantine and will remain that way for the rest of her frog life.


----------



## scoy

CJ PELCH said:


> I gave RETF GIRL. The link and paperwork to get her frogs tested @ Research Associates Laboratory. So far she has not gotten them tested. Which I am very curious as to why after she claims this is a sickness my frogs gave hers, but yet she never tested her frogs she had and never quarantined mine from hers so there is NO ACCURATE way at this point in time to see where the root of the problem laid other than her claims. ALL I KNOW FOR CERTAIN... is I had one female out of that entire tank that had chytrid and has been treated and still under quarantine and will remain that way for the rest of her frog life.


After everything you put this poor girl through its sick to me that your so eager to pass blame onto her.


----------



## Halter

scoy said:


> After everything you put this poor girl through its sick to me that your so eager to pass blame onto her.


It also sickens me that he not answering any of our concerns! Just steps around them!


----------



## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> I gave RETF GIRL. The link and paperwork to get her frogs tested @ Research Associates Laboratory. So far she has not gotten them tested. Which I am very curious as to why after she claims this is a sickness my frogs gave hers, but yet she never tested her frogs she had and never quarantined mine from hers so there is NO ACCURATE way at this point in time to see where the root of the problem laid other than her claims. ALL I KNOW FOR CERTAIN... is I had one female out of that entire tank that had chytrid and has been treated and still under quarantine and will remain that way for the rest of her frog life.


I meant your frogs were properly tested and only one returned positive for chytrid. And that other tests were administered and returned a negative. 

Getting accurate information from you is like playing 20 questions, with various caveats being constantly brought up on further examination


----------



## CJ PELCH

scoy said:


> After everything you put this poor girl through its sick to me that your so eager to pass blame onto her.


Where am I blaming...i only stated what can be ACTUALLY CERTAIN WITH FACTS...thats what everything is about right? FACTS?


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> It also sickens me that he not answering any of our concerns! Just steps around them!


Halter what are your concerns?


----------



## CJ PELCH

Splash&Dash said:


> I meant your frogs were properly tested and only one returned positive for chytrid. And that other tests were administered and returned a negative.
> 
> Getting accurate information from you is like playing 20 questions, with various caveats being constantly brought up on further examination


Mike novey has the PDFs of my frogs that got tested from that vivarium. As well as me. There is paperwork to back my case.


----------



## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> Mike novey has the PDFs of my frogs that got tested ***from that vivarium***. As well as me. There is paperwork to back my case.


the type of caveat I was speaking of. Obviously the next question to ask is did you do any group swabs of your other vivariums and did you test for anything beyond Chytrid?


----------



## scoy

CJ PELCH said:


> Where am I blaming...i only stated what can be ACTUALLY CERTAIN WITH FACTS...thats what everything is about right? FACTS?


So what if the rest of her collection test positive? All that would prove is you infected her whole collection. All it takes is turning over a leaf from a viv then turning over a leaf in another viv....Oh but thts her fault because she dosent use dial hand soap.


----------



## frogfreak

How many of you test for Bd? If you don't, you have no right to be harping on the guy. It's very easy to spread the disease and it could happen to anyone of us. 

I see someone trying to make good from bad and ya'll are tossing him under a bus. It's beyond ridiculous...


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogfreak said:


> How many of you test for Bd? If you don't, you have no right to be harping on the guy.


While I agree with you in general, we are talking about a collection where a) it was already identified as active in, b) that commercial sales are produced from, c) and concerns a situation where we can't even be sure that it was the issue in question here





> I see someone trying to make good from bad and ya'll are tossing him under a bus. It's beyond ridiculous...


It's great that he has tried to address the concerns here. But the manner in which he is doing this is just creating more problems (see point "c").


----------



## frogfreak

Splash&Dash said:


> While I agree with you in general, we are talking about a collection where a) it was already identified as active in, b) that commercial sales are produced from, c) and concerns a situation where we can't even be sure that it was the issue in question here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great that he has tried to address the concerns here. But the manner in which he is doing this is just creating more problems (see point "c").


At least he's trying...Give him some air and some time. This public outcry isn't helping the situation at all, now is it?


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogfreak said:


> At least he's trying...


I think that's debatable on certain points. But being that resolving the issue is in everyone's best interests, I am trying to point out that he isn't helping his situation by handling it the way he is, while also at least trying to be respectful (I tend to naturally be inclined towards being an asshole, so I'm not always successful in such things)


----------



## frogfreak

Splash&Dash said:


> I think that's debatable on certain points. But being that resolving the issue is in everyone's best interests, I am trying to point out that he isn't helping his situation by handling it the way he is, while also at least trying to be respectful (I tend to naturally be inclined towards being an asshole, so I'm not always successful in such things)


And there's the other side of the coin. The frogs weren't put through a proper QT (Hands weren't washed) Sorry RETFgirl. I have to vested interest in this, other than, hounding him won't help matters.

I had a huge scare a couple of years back! (It turned out to be false) But, I remember what it felt like and I can tell you it scared the sh!t out of me!! I lost a lot of sleep over it! I can imagine how they both feel...


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogfreak said:


> And there's the other side of the coin. The frogs weren't put through a proper QT (Hands weren't washed) Sorry RETFgirl.


agreed. But it's hard to argue his bd infection came from her (though what she was dealing with still seems unanswered, imo)



> I have to vested interest in this, other than, hounding him won't help matters.
> 
> I had a huge scare a couple of years back! (It turned out to be false) But, I remember what it felt like and I can tell you it scared the sh!t out of me!! I lost a lot of sleep over it! I can imagine how they both feel...


people often lose sight of the fact that such an infection can occur anywhere . What is important is how people deal with it. Here, it seems the person keeps giving confusing and contradictory answers, and it is a pattern that has existed with this person long before this particular incident (see the ruby eye breeding thread).


----------



## frogfreak

At least he's *TRYING *to deal with it. Sorry, if it's not up to your satisfaction.

Many, would have run...Later


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogfreak said:


> At least he's *TRYING *to deal with it. Sorry, if it's not up to your satisfaction.


again, he keeps giving misleading information as "he tries to deal with it" and it fits a pattern of habit that existed long before he was "trying to deal with it".

So he opens himself up to even more criticism



> Many, would have run...Later


 I'm not sure what is currently going on is necessarily better than just running. And on some levels it might be worse


----------



## frogface

frogfreak said:


> How many of you test for Bd? If you don't, you have no right to be harping on the guy. It's very easy to spread the disease and it could happen to anyone of us.
> 
> I see someone trying to make good from bad and ya'll are tossing him under a bus. It's beyond ridiculous...


I agree with you and I think it's time we were working with CJ and not against him. That said, this issue blew up because he was giving RETFgirl the runaround. Also, he has been less than honest with the frog community regarding his husbandry and other issues. 

And yes, RETFgirl didn't QT. She said so right up front. I believe she has been very forthcoming with information about the whole mess. She came here for help with her frogs, not to vilify CJ. That changed when CJ (IMO) became less than honorable in his dealings with her. 

For me, the concern at this moment is making sure this is contained. Was it only Chytrid? What else where the frogs tested for? Is there some way we can help?


----------



## frogfreak

frogface said:


> For me, the concern at this moment is making sure this is contained. Was it only Chytrid? What else where the frogs tested for?* Is there some way we can help?*


Thank you, Kris!


----------



## Halter

frogfreak said:


> At least he's trying...Give him some air and some time. This public outcry isn't helping the situation at all, now is it?


I wouldnt call it an outcry. I would call it a direct concern for the well being of other amphibians and how many could be infected without him even knowing it, and spreading it on a mass scale.

To me thats scary and enough to try and prod and get inconsistent answers from someone who apparently knows nothing of husbandry. I think we want those answers because maybe we want to help. But how can we help if nothing we get is the run around?


----------



## frogface

Halter said:


> I wouldnt call it an outcry. I would call it a direct concern for the well being of other amphibians and how many could be infected without him even knowing it, and spreading it on a mass scale.
> 
> To me thats scary and enough to try and prod and get inconsistent answers from someone who apparently knows nothing of husbandry. I think we want those answers because maybe we want to help. But how can we help if nothing we get is the run around?


I have an idea. Due to some less than truthful exchanges, I don't think I'd be comfortable sending cash to CJ. Sorry CJ, that's just what happens. However, I would be open to a fund to get RETFgirl's frogs to a vet to under go a full battery of tests. 

Maybe she could make an appt with frogparty's vet, find out from them what she needs to test for and what the total cost would be. Then we could pool our money to get it done?

eta: From what I understand, RETFgirl spent a lot of money on these frogs and is tapped out. That's why she hadn't been able to test yet. She's a SAHM.


----------



## joshbaker14t

frogface said:


> ...She's a SAHM.


urban dictionary provides multiple explanations for this. Im going to assume the best...


----------



## Splash&Dash

joshbaker14t said:


> urban dictionary provides multiple explanations for this. Im going to assume the best...


Stay At Home Mom


----------



## ecichlid

*Ahem* I was told by my wife that her title is *Household Engineer*. That has been on our tax returns the last few years - not kidding.


----------



## Judy S

Splash&Dash said:


> Stay At Home Mom


Whew............


----------



## frogface

Well it suddenly got very quiet in here! 

I'm open to suggestions of other ways we could help. My thinking is that, regardless of how it happened, it did happen. We, as a frog community, should not only be policing our own but also cleaning up our own messes. If we don't, the government is already thinking of ways to do it for us. Not good!

I am concerned that there were other frogs sold to other people. We've been told that they have been notified. All of them? Is there a way to verify that they have all been notified and they know what they are dealing with and how to proceed? What are the husbandry practices of the other buyers? Have they had their tree frogs die and now they are putting new frogs into the old tanks? Did they pass their frogs onto other people? 

I'm almost thinking of putting up a note on FrogForum asking that anyone who purchased frogs contact me.

Any other ideas?


----------



## Judy S

I think it comes down to economics...buyers could insist on a clean bill of health through a recognized lab...s seller that is bonded, insured...the whole nine yards. But at that point, the frogs become much more expensive...so just how committed are the buyers??? At the sales to the public, the certification would be available...and penalties would be imposed if within a specified period of time before sale, there were issues...there are similiar issues with livestock, especially horses that are moved from place to place just to prevent such issues as contagion..and the issues for equines is not usually as dire....if the frog hobbyists don't do something for themselves there will be huge implications....and sellers of any frog should be prepared to have handouts of just HOW to recognize problems, etc., etc. to protect our own population of native frogs...to do otherwise is just plain selfish and greedy...


----------



## frogface

I wish some of our sciency people would chime in on this. Luckily, I have an appt with my exotic vet tomorrow. I'll give her a quick summary and ask what she thinks would be the best way to proceed with this.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Judy S said:


> I think it comes down to economics...buyers could insist on a clean bill of health through a recognized lab...s seller that is bonded, insured...the whole nine yards. But at that point, the frogs become much more expensive...so just how committed are the buyers??? At the sales to the public, the certification would be available...and penalties would be imposed if within a specified period of time before sale, there were issues...there are similiar issues with livestock, especially horses that are moved from place to place just to prevent such issues as contagion..and the issues for equines is not usually as dire....if the frog hobbyists don't do something for themselves there will be huge implications....and sellers of any frog should be prepared to have handouts of just HOW to recognize problems, etc., etc. to protect our own population of native frogs...to do otherwise is just plain selfish and greedy...


Judy, no offense, I totally get your point. But no way Jose'. Remember you're talking about the same buyers that would buy tads to save a buck. The same buyers that would prefer their frogs came USPS because it would be cheaper. There is no way a majority of them would ever buy frogs if extra cost for testing drove the price up....then again, maybe not such a bad idea. Maybe some would stop treating them as disposable and sell them after being a frogger for 30 days.


----------



## Judy S

YOU HAVE GOTTEN MY POINT.....thanks


----------



## frogface

As someone who has a couple tanks full of froglets, I'd have no problem doing a test of each enclosure. That should cover everyone in it, right? Then when I passed the froglets on I could tell the new owners that they have been tested. Am I understanding how it works?

I think it's well worth exploring how to better insure that people are getting healthy froglets. I don't know that I'd do fecals on them. The new owner can do that. But for something like Rana Virus and Chytrid, I think I'd be willing to do it on a froglet tank, by froglet tank basis. Cost per frog would be too much. 

That said, at this moment I am most concerned about the matter at hand; frogs that have tested positive for chytrid with other, possibly contaminated, frogs having been released to the public


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> As someone who has a couple tanks full of froglets, I'd have no problem doing a test of each enclosure. That should cover everyone in it, right? Then when I passed the froglets on I could tell the new owners that they have been tested. Am I understanding how it works?


There is nothing stopping anyone from offering their frogs with group or individual testing verification on a volunteery basis, already. Naturally you would need to compete with people not adding such additional charges, and people would need to trust that the test results actively reflected the status of the animal being advertised. But there is a clear layer of value added to your frogs with it


----------



## SilverLynx

I would HIGHLY recommend that you contact Zoologix and order swabs for an Amphibian panel which includes testing for Chytrid and Rana virus as well as other diseases affecting frogs. That is the lab several Wildlife Agencies and zoos use. Testing surviving individual frogs will provide valuable answers. 

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


----------



## frogface

Well, my vet wasn't able to give any insight that we didn't already have. We don't know what RETFgirl ended up doing with her frogs. We don't know who purchased the other frogs or what they did. Hopefully no one dumped any corpses outside or flushed them into the sewer.

So, is that the end of it then?


----------



## Halter

frogface said:


> Well, my vet wasn't able to give any insight that we didn't already have. We don't know what RETFgirl ended up doing with her frogs. We don't know who purchased the other frogs or what they did. Hopefully no one dumped any corpses outside or flushed them into the sewer.
> 
> So, is that the end of it then?


I dont know, I think CJ mentioned that he got all of his other tanks tested, lets just hope that he actually did. We can only just hope this is the only isolated incident and that we dont have to see this again, especially from the same 'dealer'


----------



## jacobi

frogface said:


> We don't know what RETFgirl ended up doing with her frogs. We don't know who purchased the other frogs or what they did.


Without any input from RETFgirl, or anybody else who bought these frogs, there really is nothing anybody here can do or help with. 

What we CAN do is offer free advice to people we see at shows, expos or pet stores when we see them being given incorrect or even bad advice. 

As has been said before about many topics here on Dendroboard (and probably other forums too), lots of people get riled up online, but don't actually do what they are spouting off about.


----------



## Judy S

Just as happens with politics....the people I talk with will go on and on about a particular subject but have NO answer when I ask them whether they have ever called or written to their representatives at any level...even on the most local level.... It is one reason why I really like this board...differing opinions at least makes people look at what they are doing with their own approach...


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> As someone who has a couple tanks full of froglets, I'd have no problem doing a test of each enclosure. That should cover everyone in it, right? Then when I passed the froglets on I could tell the new owners that they have been tested. Am I understanding how it works?
> 
> I think it's well worth exploring how to better insure that people are getting healthy froglets. I don't know that I'd do fecals on them. The new owner can do that. But for something like Rana Virus and Chytrid, I think I'd be willing to do it on a froglet tank, by froglet tank basis. Cost per frog would be too much.
> 
> That said, at this moment I am most concerned about the matter at hand; frogs that have tested positive for chytrid with other, possibly contaminated, frogs having been released to the public


I just wanted to add, this is also a great way of offsetting the costs for testing animals, since the breeder can generally facilitate effective group testing in those situations than many buyers, and imagine it adding little more than 5-10 per frog. And while Rusty does have a point about people looking for the cheapest animals, I have a hard time thinking a number of people would pass up the chance to to an animal pretested for such a small price increase.

Economically, it's a very good deal


----------



## Judy S

unfortunately only the breeders and informed hobbyists would see the benefit of this procedure...I think it is a terrific idea to be able to sell tested animals...and perhaps an information sheet, or something to refer to at shows, would educate the new hobbyists...and direct them toward boards such as DB for further info.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Judy S said:


> unfortunately only the breeders and informed hobbyists would see the benefit of this procedure...I think it is a terrific idea to be able to sell tested animals...and perhaps an information sheet, or something to refer to at shows, would educate the new hobbyists...and direct them toward boards such as DB for further info.


Well, while many people might not be informed on the subject, I think if they saw two sets of frogs, and one being advertised as testing clean for a list of potential diseases, then some people might be inclined to go for what seems to assure a more trouble free and problematic purchase. 

clearly not everyone, but it would likely be a positive for many people. Especially if we are talking about 5-10 dollars


----------



## bsr8129

I believe this has been talked about on here before and as you can tell looking in the classifieds, no one is doing it.


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## Splash&Dash

bsr8129 said:


> I believe this has been talked about on here before and as you can tell looking in the classifieds, no one is doing it.


ok?

12345678


----------



## Pubfiction

I don't think any test is doable for 5-10$ unless you do it yourself in high throughput. If you have to outsource the job you either need a close vet you can bargain with or you have to ship them out and then you have the shipping costs. Many times the vets have kits they have to ship to you. The shipping alone is going to be $10. 

I have discussed this before and it is my opinion that large breeders should do regular testing. They are the only ones who could financially deal with it. They can spread the costs out per frog. They also should want to do this because they could potentially head off an out break in their facilities. 

For instance I did fecals on my new frogs from NARBC and I thought I got a pretty good deal, I was able to pool samples and it cost $22 I was lucky enough to have a local vet, surprisingly one of the best vet schools in the country wouldn't even work with frogs. The only way you can bring the price down is if you learn to run them yourself. You will need appropriate solutions and a microscope. All of these could cost hundreds to thousands of dollars. For anyone but a large breeder they wont be able to recoup the costs. And likely most buyers won't spring for frogs that are $30+ / frog more expensive. Then moving on to PCR based tests you are talking thousands in equipment and hundreds in supplies. Once again the price per frog could be brought down to maybe $15 for a bunch of tests if you were a large breeder and did the tests on hundreds of frogs / year. 

As another poster stated so far no one seems to be offering these services as a feature of the frogs they sell. The reality is these animals are just cheaper to toss than to test in most cases. So people just take their chances, and this is why quarantine is so important.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Pubfiction said:


> I don't think any test is doable for 5-10$ unless you do it yourself in high throughput.


We were talking about PCR group testing. I might be wrong, but the panels I have heard cited as being pretty reasonable on pricing. Usually under $30, but that might have only been for a rana or chytrid, and not a full panel.




> They are the only ones who could financially deal with it. ***They can spread the costs out per frog***.


That is exactly what I am talking about: You take a group swab from the clutch you are selling and advertise it as such


----------



## frogface

Let's say I have 20 Leuc froglets. I get the ranavirus and chytrid tests on the tank. Each have been quoted for under 20 bucks. I add 5 bucks a froglet and I'm already ahead. Maybe I even throw in a group fecal for 25 bucks (what my vet charges). Someone else do the math.


----------



## Pubfiction

Well my question is why isn't anyone doing it if it works that well. I don't have a direct answer. 

Maybe its because fecals are suppose to be done 3x, or maybe you need to ship out the sample for PCR adding $10 or so to the cost. I don't know about all the tests but I think Chytrid is a qPCR based test which means it is probably sensitive to dilution. Maybe its because they are more scared of a false negative coming back to haunt them. Or maybe its because for large breeders its just easier and cheaper to say if anything goes wrong I will replace the frog for free. When presented with that promise people don't seem to care if they were tested or not.


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> Let's say I have 20 Leuc froglets. I get the ranavirus and chytrid tests on the tank. Each have been quoted for under 20 bucks. I add 5 bucks a froglet and I'm already ahead. Maybe I even throw in a group fecal for 25 bucks (what my vet charges). Someone else do the math.



(20 Leuc froglets)+ 2(20 bucks)+(25 bucks)= Pickle

hopefully that helps


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

So am I hearing this right that now CJ is blaming the sick frogs on Mike Novy??? Because that's what I've had one of CJ's customers tell me.


----------



## frogface

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So am I hearing this right that now CJ is blaming the sick frogs on Mike Novy??? Because that's what I've had one of CJ's customers tell me.


Wait, what?!


----------



## RETFgirl

So everyone knows.... I did recieve my refund. Was I happy with it? Hardly. Do I think the refund was only givin because he knew you guys would repremand him if he didnt? You bet'cha. Do I feel cheated? absolutely. 
I got an unknown disease who killed off all my frogs off on top of Chytrid that became the cherry on the cake at the end. The money doesnt even begin to cover having to watch my "babies" suffer and profusely hemmorage all over their tanks. Yes I chose to euthenize some but the disease was causing them a great deal of pain and going back to check on them to see them get worse and worse gave me an uneasy sickening pit in my stomach. 
The whole ordeal was incredibly stressful and I am left with 5 frogs from my original 12. I no longer can breed them. All the money I invested...a beautiful planted 134 gallon vivarium is basically worthless and EVEN MORE treatment is just not an option at the moment. The frogs are almost certainly carrying the disease but otherwise look ok. I am saving money for another big build and letting the frogs recover from the strenuous disease that just killed all their friends and I will start treatment for chytrid at that time. You better believe I will never go forward with my hopes and dreams of breeding these frogs and they will live out their days in my care so they can not harm anyone elses frogs 
I know they are many more customers who were sold sick frogs at the show. I witnessed 2 groups of people buying milkfrogs with my own eyes. He lied to me every step of the way it was a completely unprofessional horrifying ordeal and when I think about all the ways he did me wrong my blood boils and I want to cry. I pray that nobody makes the same mistake I did and do any business with A.I.R. exotics aka Corey Pelcher

THANK YOU to all the wonderful people on this forum who understood what I was going through and helped me cope with this situation. You guys are wonderful <3


----------



## frogface

RETFgirl, I'm so sorry for everything 

If you get your remaining frogs tested and treated, you might still be able to breed them, depending on what they have other than chytrid. I hope you'll consider it and follow through with getting them back into shape.


----------



## RETFgirl

I am kinda over it. Especially because I am unsure of what the first disease was or if my frogs are carriers. I guess I'll never know


----------



## Halter

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So am I hearing this right that now CJ is blaming the sick frogs on Mike Novy??? Because that's what I've had one of CJ's customers tell me.


are you serious? i certainly hope not!


----------



## Halter

RETFgirl said:


> I am kinda over it. Especially because I am unsure of what the first disease was or if my frogs are carriers. I guess I'll never know


And i am also very sorry. It is a terrible situation. I hope everything works out for you and good luck with your babies. 
But RETFgirl thank you for telling us everthing with honesty and im glad we were able to make the situation better.

Edit: Also wanted to add- RETFgirl, you should probably document your situation on the frog forum as well. Other individuals that purchase from this particular dealer need to be aware-depending on if he has done that already, just a thought.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So am I hearing this right that now CJ is blaming the sick frogs on Mike Novy??? Because that's what I've had one of CJ's customers tell me.


I never made any statement in this manner. I also have a written confession from that customer that this was false. Last names have been removed from the FB conversation for professionalism and privacy. READ BELOW:
______________________________________________________________
CJ 
hey rusty came on the forums and said that i told you I'm blaming the sick milk frogs on mike. ?? This true?

Gina
What? Who is rusty? And the ONLY thing is said to ANYONE about anything was to this one woman! I said the my milks and my friends milks both were dead. And she sent me some forum convo between you and some lady. And I said- he didn't breed the milks, mike did. OMG people are such fucking gossips for their own enjoyment!

Gina 
I didn't blame or say you blamed anyone... And she was eluding to that and I said no... I didn't say that. Omg I'm moving and my laptop and computer is literally in a box I can't read

Gina 
Omg I wouldn't even reply to a bunch of people who don't even know wtf they are talking about... Tell mike to message me and I will tell him EXACTLY what I said.

Gina 
That's crazy I JUST had this convo with her YESTERDAY ! It was house of frogs. Not Jon but his wife or fiancé

______________________________________________________


Just for all this lie you just stated. I am officially done with this forum from here on out. I am tired of you people harping on me when I did all I could of my ability to replace / refund / test / treat ALL FROGS in my house. Im tired of it and respectfully request to leave me be. Let a fellow repair the mistake in peace. Good day to you all.

Also...to finalize one thing. Britney also bought a wild caught RETF frog from SOUTH BAY TROPICAL ON THAT SAME DAY. That never got thrown in the picture. But im done here on this forum just for rustys lie.


----------



## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> I never made any statement in this manner. I also have a written confession from that customer that this was false. Last names have been removed from the FB conversation for professionalism and privacy.


----------



## frogface

> Also...to finalize one thing. Britney also bought a wild caught RETF frog from SOUTH BAY TROPICAL ON THAT SAME DAY.


Oh jeez, is that true?


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> Just for all this lie you just stated. I am officially done with this forum from here on out. I am tired of you people harping on me when I did all I could of my ability to replace / refund / test / treat ALL FROGS in my house. Im tired of it and respectfully request to leave me be. Let a fellow repair the mistake in peace. Good day to you all.
> 
> Also...to finalize one thing. Britney also bought a wild caught RETF frog from SOUTH BAY TROPICAL ON THAT SAME DAY. That never got thrown in the picture. But im done here on this forum just for rustys lie.





I guess the sixth time is a charm!


Regardless even if she did,you admittedly SOLD SICK frogs and you admitted you HAVE CHYTRYD!!!!!! And yes when you admit to having a disease like this you should refund/ replace and test.It's the right thing to do!!!The people on the other forums will know of these dealings as they probably already do and should know in case you sold frogs that can wipe out their collections as well!!!


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> I guess the sixth time is a charm!
> 
> 
> Regardless even if she did,you admittedly SOLD SICK frogs and you admitted you HAVE CHYTRYD!!!!!! And yes when you admit to having a disease like this you should refund/ replace and test.It's the right thing to do!!!The people on the other forums will know of these dealings as they probably already do and should know in case you sold frogs that can wipe out their collections as well!!!


The tests were proven after sale...I DID NOT know I sold sick frogs at the time of sale as mine were healthy at time of sale...VISUALLY


----------



## FroggyKnight

CJ PELCH said:


> Also...to finalize one thing. Britney also bought a wild caught RETF frog from SOUTH BAY TROPICAL ON THAT SAME DAY. That never got thrown in the picture.


Hmmm…. Did you ever think of mentioning that sooner (CJ or Britney)?

That could have been a possible cause for this tragedy, not CJ's. We will never know for sure. 

I'm sorry CJ for all the accusations toward your care for your animals, but it hasn't been unwarranted as a situation such as this can be VERY critical to how the hobby is viewed in the future and the quality of future stock. If a outbreak of chytrid or other highly dangerous disease spread through native wild populations (backdoor herps) or through captive collections it may be the final push needed to enforce strict regulations on our amphibian and reptile keeping.

My heart goes out to RETFgirl for all the pain she has endured, but I will continue to remain skeptical of all the people who have been part of this horrible event.

Good luck,
John


----------



## Halter

I really hope this thread can get stickied, it is a great reference of what what happens when you dont quarantine and dont test your animals for chytrid etc.


----------



## CJ PELCH

FroggyKnight said:


> Hmmm…. Did you ever think of mentioning that sooner (CJ or Britney)?
> 
> That could have been a possible cause for this tragedy, not CJ's. We will never know for sure.
> 
> I'm sorry CJ for all the accusations toward your care for your animals, but it hasn't been unwarranted as a situation such as this can be VERY critical to how the hobby is viewed in the future and the quality of future stock. If a outbreak of chytrid or other highly dangerous disease spread through native wild populations (backdoor herps) or through captive collections it may be the final push needed to enforce strict regulations on our amphibian and reptile keeping.
> 
> My heart goes out to RETFgirl for all the pain she has endured, but I will continue to remain skeptical of all the people who have been part of this horrible event.
> 
> Good luck,
> John


John,

Did not dawn on me until today actually. I just remembered that when She came to my booth and asked "can you price match SOUTH BAY TROPICALS RETF for me?"
Mine were being sold for $50.00 (same price I got them for from pet kingdom) and South Bay Tropicals was $34.99. I stated yes days prior to the sale. We have been in touch for months prior to the show. Well I do have one left from that bunch. She is doing really well after Lamisil Treatment and is fat as ever from her dubias and crickets. Ill post a picture of here here shortly. Love her to death.


----------



## FroggyKnight

CJ PELCH said:


> John,
> 
> Did not dawn on me until today actually. I just remembered that when She came to my booth and said can you price match SOUTH BAY TROPICALS RETF for me? Mine were being sold for $50.00 (same price I got them for from pet kingdom) and South Bay Tropicals was $34.99. I stated yes days prior to the sale. We have been in touch for months prior to the show.


Did she just ask for a price match or did she actually buy frogs from multiple sources?


----------



## Splash&Dash

FroggyKnight said:


> Did she just ask for a price match or did she actually buy frogs from multiple sources?


Ahh, the CJ Pelch caveat game. Always a good way to promote trust in the information you are trying to push


----------



## CJ PELCH

FroggyKnight said:


> Did she just ask for a price match or did she actually buy frogs from multiple sources?


She stated that she purchased the one in the deli container that she brought over to my booth was the only one at their booth otherwise she would have bought more. Look...I don't want another chase going on between vendors and purchaser. South bay has those silly bird netting. In order to handle and transport one of those deli containers you would need to purchase it. I doubt Southbay would allow her to roam the show with one in her hand.
This is a valuable lesson to both parties and I think we both just want and end to the evolution. She stated the weird "cold sore" like symptoms came from MY MALE. I will take her word for it ...despite owning those frogs for over a year with no such symptoms just based on the poor husbandry practice I had with those months prior. I Only wish if it was my frog they showed the symptoms with me and not her. I would have NEVER sold the poor things.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Here are the pictures of the last RETF I had that was in the same group of red eyes I sold at the show. She is the one that tested positive for Chytrid last month and has been treated for 14 days of Lamasil with the specific instructions I posted a few pages back which Michael Novy gave to me thanks to his concern. She is doing well and has gained a good amount of weight since the end of treatment. She will remain in her one cage as my personal pet. She is very special and will never be for sale since I no longer sell WC frogs. 

Her retest results will be available upon the first week of NOVEMBER. 
Hopefully for my birthday on November 8th with a negative result


----------



## oddlot

Oh,I thought you were gone AGAIN!!! Maybe # 7


So you are just throwing around accusations again.You don't know for sure she bought it there from that vendor and I know you want to blame someone else,but YOU ADMITTED yours were infected with CHYTRID,and told her to wash them with soap!!REALLY!?!?So did someone elses frog cause her issues or did your KNOWN infected animals?More than Likely the ones that you mixed with the Ruby eyes,rather than another vendor that you are trying to throw under the bus.Sorry but you have a track record of lies after lies.I don't trust you!


----------



## Splash&Dash

oddlot said:


> Oh,I thought you were gone AGAIN!!! Maybe # 7
> 
> 
> So you are just throwing around accusations again.You don't know for sure she bought it there from that vendor and I know you want to blame someone else,but YOU ADMITTED yours were infected with CHYTRID,and told her to was them with soap!!REALLY!?!?So did someone elses frog cause her issues or did your KNOWN infected animals?More than Likely the ones that you mixed with the Ruby eyes,rather than another vendor that you are trying to throw under the bus.Sorry but you have a track record of lies after lies.I don't trust you!


not to mention, the total convenience of this only now being mentioned.


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> Oh,I thought you were gone AGAIN!!! Maybe # 7
> 
> 
> So you are just throwing around accusations again.You don't know for sure she bought it there from that vendor and I know you want to blame someone else,but YOU ADMITTED yours were infected with CHYTRID,and told her to was them with soap!!REALLY!?!?So did someone elses frog cause her issues or did your KNOWN infected animals?More than Likely the ones that you mixed with the Ruby eyes,rather than another vendor that you are trying to throw under the bus.Sorry but you have a track record of lies after lies.I don't trust you!


Dont have to trust me. The one you see in the photo. She underwent surgery a couple weeks prior to the show which is why she never went to the show for sale. She had a strange bump on her back where you see the blue scar tissue on her back which is where I used Dial antibacterial soap to disinfect the surgery laceration post surgery until the wound was closed. Right or wrong...it worked and worked well.

Ill let Brittany tell you herself that she bought the frog from them. Just wait for her. ok?


----------



## oddlot

I don't and most others don't......

And wrong!Soap will KILL KILL KILL a frog!!! Don't you get it?!

I don't even know what picture you're talking about.


----------



## Halter

Sorry cj your inconsistencies push me to never buy or recommend anything that.has ever touched your facility.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> i don't and most others don't......
> 
> And wrong!soap will kill kill kill a frog!!! Don't you get it?!
> 
> I don't even know what picture you're talking about.


post number 188


----------



## Cfrog

CJ PELCH said:


> . Love her to death.


....................


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Sorry cj your inconsistencies push me to never buy or recommend anything that.has ever touched your facility.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


I understand Halter. Its perfectly understandable. Ill prove myself worthy down the road once I start selling frogs again probably at the January show. Its a major hickup for sure. The frogs being sold at my November show next week are not mine. They are my employees and I hold my guarantee policy with their frogs as well.


----------



## oddlot

Originally Posted by CJ PELCH View Post

I am officially done with this forum from here on out. I am tired of you people harping on me. Good day to you all.

But im done here on this forum just for rustys lie.




And..........


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> The frogs being sold at my November show next week are not mine. They are my employees and I hold my guarantee policy with their frogs as well.


You have employees? How big is your facility?


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> You have employees? How big is your facility?


We have 4 different facilities and 4 employees. We each run our own facility. Mine is my house because its easier for me with 2 Full time jobs.


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> We have 4 different facilities and 4 employees. We each run our own facility.


Who is "we"? I'm confused


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> Who is "we"? I'm confused


employees.


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> employees.


So you have four facilities, four employees, and a vet who recommended washing frogs with hand soap? You might want to consider consulting another veterinarian. A good veterinarian just a call away should be a necessity for a business with four breeding facilities...


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> So you have four facilities, four employees, and a vet who recommended washing frogs with hand soap? You might want to consider consulting another veterinarian. A good veterinarian just a call away should be a necessity for a business with four breeding facilities...


Theres 2 exotic vets in our area. I will take your advice on that one! Thanks


----------



## FroggyKnight

oddlot said:


> Oh,I thought you were gone AGAIN!!! Maybe # 7
> 
> 
> So you are just throwing around accusations again.You don't know for sure she bought it there from that vendor and I know you want to blame someone else,but YOU ADMITTED yours were infected with CHYTRID,and told her to wash them with soap!!REALLY!?!?So did someone elses frog cause her issues or did your KNOWN infected animals?More than Likely the ones that you mixed with the Ruby eyes,rather than another vendor that you are trying to throw under the bus.Sorry but you have a track record of lies after lies.I don't trust you!


Oddlot, I mean no offense when saying this, but you need to cool down. I understand your frustration at the situation but as a mod, I assume you wish to show your best in the face of the public. I have been feeling the same as you the minute this thread began, I've just been keeping quiet on the sidelines in order to avoid any conflict and to gather more information on this situation. I agree that CJ has stated many inconsistencies, whither or not they were to protect a secret or just a negative response to the accusations he has received is beyond my knowing. With CJ's current actions and his use of soap on frogs, I would not buy frogs from him ether, but his methods are unlikely to change if we only throw hateful words at him.

Sorry mod, am I still on your good side?


----------



## CJ PELCH

FroggyKnight said:


> Oddlot, I mean no offense when saying this, but you need to cool down. I understand your frustration at the situation but as a mod, I assume you wish to show your best in the face of the public. I have been feeling the same as you the minute this thread began, I've just been keeping quiet on the sidelines in order to avoid any conflict and to gather more information on this situation. I agree that CJ has stated many inconsistencies, whither or not they were to protect a secret or just a negative response to the accusations he has received is beyond my knowing. With CJ's current actions and his use of soap on frogs, I would not buy frogs from him ether, but his methods are unlikely to change if we only throw hateful words at him.
> 
> Sorry mod, am I still on your good side?


John,

Just one frog...post surgury. None of my others... I have neosporin (NON PAIN RELIEF) for all other wounds and silversufdiazine as well.


----------



## FroggyKnight

CJ PELCH said:


> John,
> 
> Just one frog...post surgury. None of my others... I have neosporin (NON PAIN RELIEF) for all other wounds and silversufdiazine as well.


ok. I assume your talking about the soap? If it is indeed towards that part of my comment, then I am sorry is I used plural instead of singular. I was unsure of how many frogs were treated with this method.

I am no vet, but I THINK neosporin was a good call. I applaud you for its use


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> John,
> 
> Just one frog...post surgury. None of my others... I have neosporin (NON PAIN RELIEF) for all other wounds and silversufdiazine as well.


Who performed the surgery, and what was it for?


----------



## FroggyKnight

Wait, second thought, didn't you tell RETFgirl to use soap? could be wrong, it was all so long ago…..


----------



## FroggyKnight

jacobi said:


> Who performed the surgery, and what was it for?


good question, what was diagnosis?


----------



## oddlot

FroggyKnight said:


> Oddlot, I mean no offense when saying this, but you need to cool down. I understand your frustration at the situation but as a mod, I assume you wish to show your best in the face of the public. I have been feeling the same as you the minute this thread began, I've just been keeping quiet on the sidelines in order to avoid any conflict and to gather more information on this situation. I agree that CJ has stated many inconsistencies, whither or not they were to protect a secret or just a negative response to the accusations he has received is beyond my knowing. With CJ's current actions and his use of soap on frogs, I would not buy frogs from him ether, but his methods are unlikely to change if we only throw hateful words at him.
> 
> Sorry mod, am I still on your good side?


No we're cool,and you're right,I'm just tired of the lies in all of his threads ,but I'm more concerned with someone reading his posts and either using soap on their frogs and killing them or to the people he sold frogs to infecting collections and causing an epidemic,but on that note I'm backing out as I agree at this point.


----------



## CJ PELCH

FroggyKnight said:


> ok. I assume your talking about the soap? If it is indeed towards that part of my comment, then I am sorry is I used plural instead of singular. I was unsure of how many frogs were treated with this method.
> 
> I am no vet, but I THINK neosporin was a good call. I applaud you for its use


Yes I was addressing that. My apologies. After the initial cleaning...(2 days) of Dial. I switched to neosporin which was recommended to me by a moderator of another forum. Ever since then watching its wonders on frogs and how it healed the scar tissue on both my beloved little girl and nose rub from others (none of my own). I am very pleased with results.


----------



## CJ PELCH

FroggyKnight said:


> Wait, second thought, didn't you tell RETFgirl to use soap? could be wrong, it was all so long ago…..


Yes. Bad advice at the time. She stated neosporin wasn't working so I immediately bought her the silversulfdiazine from DR. Fry and and then suggested the soap which well...didnt kill her frogs..but it didnt help either. 
I wont use dial again for that purpose or ANY with frogs.


----------



## jacobi

Well... I guess I'll stop probing and get straight to the point. Did you or did you not have frogs at your facilities that were diagnosed with Chytrid?


----------



## FroggyKnight

oddlot said:


> No we're cool,and you're right,I'm just tired of the lies in all of his threads ,but I'm more concerned with someone reading his posts and either using soap on their frogs and killing them or to the people he sold frogs to infecting collections and causing an epidemic,but on that note I'm backing out as I agree at this point.


Hey, don't back out totally, its on your permanent record! (just playin')

In all seriousness, thank you for seeing my concern and I totally believe in your point. Soapy frog syndrome must not become a new comer's go to treatment. (not calling you a newbie CJ).

We might still need you Oddlot, a mod is a good thing for a newbie to see on a tread. It makes the information seem more qualified to many.


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> Well... I guess I'll stop probing and get straight to the point. Did you or did you not have frogs at your facilities that were diagnosed with Chytrid?



Yes. I sent the results to RETF girl and michael novy. The red eyes were the only carriers. I will be doing more tests PRIOR to my january show. I will be displaying them on the table with the respectable frog with date and all supportive information. I was learning that most vendors dont do this due to the cost of it. Honestly I dont care about the money. I just want Happy, Healthy Frogs, and I want my customers satisfied.


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> Yes. I sent the results to RETF girl and michael novy.


And have you quarantined your facilities and tested every other animal likely to be affected or carry the disease?


----------



## FroggyKnight

jacobi said:


> And have you quarantined your facilities and tested every other animal likely to be affected or carry the disease?


This means testing every tank in use.


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> And have you quarantined your facilities and tested every other animal likely to be affected or carry the disease?


Yes Correct. I will be having several other frogs tested still and on the regular. All my incoming ones will be tested as well. There is a member on here that has seen the facility and the REALLY Strict quarantine procedures I put on her and others. This was news to me at the time needing (2) quarantine tanks to treat this major illness.
I plan on purchasing new frogs for breeding for januarys show and need to do this for all incoming frogs as well.


----------



## jacobi

So, you quarantined and tested all of your 150 frogs? And completely sanitised your facility?


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> So, you quarantined and tested all of your 150 frogs? And completely sanitised your facility?


I dont have that many frogs anymore. I'm down to 38. I had that many with the RETF and Whites babies. In any case no. I did GROUP SWABS...swabbed every frog on one swab in that enclosure. VETDNA Said that is sufficient and ANY trace of chytrid or rana will be picked up.
I sanitized the effected tanks yes. I did NOT sanitize the NEGATIVE enclosures. I didnt want to risk at the time of taking them out of a clean enclosure to be exposed to anything via handling or transfer. Dont worry I will be doing more tests. I support the idea of testing before the shows now.

EDIT: Actually You have every right to worry. But be rest assured....I will be doing more tests of EVERY enclosure again.


----------



## FroggyKnight

CJ PELCH said:


> I dont have that many frogs anymore. I'm down to 38. I had that many with the RETF and Whites babies. In any case no. I did GROUP SWABS...swabbed every frog on one swab in that enclosure. VETDNA Said that is sufficient and ANY trace of chytrid or rana will be picked up.
> I sanitized the effected tanks yes. I did NOT sanitize the NEGATIVE enclosures. I didnt want to risk at the time of taking them out of a clean enclosure to be exposed to anything via handling or transfer. Dont worry I will be doing more tests. I support the idea of testing before the shows now.
> 
> EDIT: Actually You have every right to worry. But be rest assured....I will be doing more tests of EVERY enclosure again.


Great! swabbing is the method I would use. Also, I would recommend doing more than two checks as the safer the better.

WORRIED!!! Sanitize everyone of the tanks, you never know what may be lurking in there, ESPECIALLY if they are on the same premises as the infected frogs.

Good luck and keep watching for and signs of infection.

Thanks for staying with us to answer questions that need clearing.


----------



## CJ PELCH

FroggyKnight said:


> Great! swabbing is the method I would use. Also, I would recommend doing more than two checks as the safer the better.
> 
> WORRIED!!! Sanitize everyone of the tanks, you never know what may be lurking in there, ESPECIALLY if they are on the same premises as the infected frogs.
> 
> Good luck and keep watching for and signs of infection.
> 
> Thanks for staying with us to answer questions that need clearing.


Noted.. I will start tomorrow with an 80 gallon...ughh thats going to take a few hours haha! Oh well needs to happen.

John,

Ive gone through alot on this...I definatly short answered people out of anger and accusations and clear embarrassment on 2 different threads. I tense up in those situations and it has never ended well. Either way. I started the business to be successful. I want to be Great at what I do. I dont want to hurt peoples feelings...their frogs or my reputation. I know I can breed quality frogs. Its in me. I can just feel it. Its all i think about all day long. I wierd so many people out because of it at my first full time job. "YOU LIKE FROGS?" Whats wrong with you? I dont get whats so cool about frogs. I dont know maybe I am wierd. HA. All in all, I want to do whats right, fix the wrong, obviously cant undo the past but its something to add to my experience and to help others with down the road. Although Im not entirely a fan of stickying this thread I will take the knowledge I have gained and pass it on to ANYONE who bumps into this type of situation and how to fix it.

To be honest John, There were no symptoms to this infection. The frogs ate and acted normal. I never stressed my frogs out so I guess thats why they never died from it. Even the symptoms Brittany has shown. It is not a symptom of chytrid based on several sources now. It must have been something else that grabbed a foothold ONTOP of chytrid? Who knows now. But I learned so much out of this. I dont want to hide. Its not my nature. I understand if people wont buy from me come january when i start selling again of my own personally facility. But I guarantee I wont make the same mistake or follow same practices that may have caused this situation. Theres no question there.


----------



## Cfrog

rain dart said:


> I think it is safe to say that no one would buy your frogs, have them tested, or anything else. My advice, don't try arguing with people, if asked a question give a straight answer...not well if she only, but I. That is where you are opening yourself up. We want facts, not your blaming or hem-ha-ing. Did you mix frogs :yes
> Did you wash them in soap o) : yes....
> easy...
> Yes Correct. I will be having several other frogs tested still and on the regular. All my incoming ones will be tested as well. There is a member on here that has seen the facility and the REALLY Strict quarantine procedures I put on her and others. This was news to me at the time needing (2) quarantine tanks to treat this major illness.
> I plan on purchasing new frogs for breeding for januarys show and need to do this for all incoming frogs as well.


Um Yeah still *not* going to purchase frogs from you, sorry.  This is a huge mess and the ramifications could be much worse. And Maybe I am wrong but I would Never sell you one of my frogs. They are not breeding machines, they are living breathing animals, that deserve respect and some decency. You know, if you own frogs and are bless to have them breed...Good job, but personally if your just keeping the frogs to breed for you, I personally think your hearts in the wrong place. I am grateful for the people who breed the frogs I currently have. Your Signature is "save the frogs" frog mills are not the way I would save them. This is not an attack on you as a person, but a thought concerning your motives. What have you learned? That the frog community will torch you for bad practice....that you *now* need to prove your animals are clean? How about enjoying the frogs you have and valuing the happiness they bring you, not what they can do for your wallet.


----------



## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> Um Yeah still *not* going to purchase frogs from you, sorry.  This is a huge mess and the ramifications could be much worse. And Maybe I am wrong but I would Never sell you one of my frogs. They are not breeding machines, they are living breathing animals, that deserve respect and some decency. You know, if you own frogs and are bless to have them breed...Good job, but personally if your just keeping the frogs to breed for you, I personally think your hearts in the wrong place. I am grateful for the people who breed the frogs I currently have. Your Signature is "save the frogs" frog mills are not the way I would save them. This is not an attack on you as a person, but a thought concerning your motives. What have you learned? That the frog community will torch you for bad practice....that you *now* need to prove your animals are clean? How about enjoying the frogs you have and valuing the happiness they bring you, not what they can do for your wallet.


Im holding my mouth on this publicly...im sending you a private. Dont ever threaten my integrity again on here...as money is not an obligation with me. I dont keep ANY PROFITS for myself. IT goes straight back into the hobby and also donations to US ARK by the hundreds. I dont want to hear smack out of YOUR MOUTH unless you have something constructive to say. I dont appreciate negative Nancies....and you fall DIRECTLY under that category. Don't let your reputation get involved...everyone knows how much the SCAD community just LOVES YOU for writing reviews on frogs that were given to you for free by a reputable source. SO now my house is a breeding mill? When im only breeding 2 species of frogs 2 of which are not active right now....get real lady... you just bashed the integrity of not only me...but the entire captive bred frog community. There are people who do this for a living because they love it so much and its the only job they can do because they cant find anything else and this hobby is the best they can do in this economy. You literally stabbed me in the heart on this verbally. WORST STATEMENT I HAVE EVER GOTTEN ON THIS FORUM YET! HOLLY CRAP! If that was your intention, GOOD**** JOB!!! YOUR EVIL!!

Red eye tree frogs come out by the hundreds....do you really think im going to keep hundreds of red eye tree frogs....NO. Maybe 20 each year...AT MOST. Do you want me to give you a free one after its tested clean of all impurities? I wouldn't even think about giving you one anyway. You would probably write a bad review saying its not GREEN enough for you


----------



## CJ PELCH

CJ PELCH said:


> Im holding my mouth on this publicly...im sending you a private. Dont ever threaten my integrity again on here...as money is not an obligation with me. I dont keep ANY PROFITS for myself. IT goes straight back into the hobby and also donations to US ARK by the hundreds. I dont want to hear smack out of YOUR MOUTH unless you have something constructive to say. I dont appreciate negative Nancies....and you fall DIRECTLY under that category. SO now my house is a breeding mill? When im only breeding 2 species of frogs 2 of which are not active right now....get real lady... you just bashed the integrity of not only me...but the entire captive bred frog community. There are people who do this for a living because they love it so much and its the only job they can do because they cant find anything else and this hobby is the best they can do in this economy. You literally stabbed me in the heart on this verbally. WORST STATEMENT I HAVE EVER GOTTEN ON THIS FORUM YET! HOLLY CRAP! If that was your intention, GOOD**** JOB!!! YOUR EVIL!!
> 
> Red eye tree frogs come out by the hundreds....do you really think im going to keep hundreds of red eye tree frogs....NO. Maybe 20 each year...AT MOST.


I keep promising myself Ill never come back to this..


----------



## Cfrog

Oh yes I see your held your tongue there. I did not say YOU had a frog mill, I said they are not the way to save frogs. And the frogs you have right now, yes not as many as before. Nice of your to judge me based on what... hearsay. You said you never talked to the other party involved and you never asked me anything so...? People will take sides, I don't care this is not about me. This is about you, sick frogs, and the distribution of those frogs. Don't try and twist my words. I know about RETF's I have kept many over they years and knew a breeder long ago. I know they lay tons of eggs. I also know that yes obviously people do breed to make a living, I am not knocking that. This economy sucks and if this is a means for people then yay. I personally think you rushed into it but thats just me. I am just a face in a sea of face. If you remember despite your problems here on DB before this incident I was glad to communicate with you about your frogs and even interested in purchasing milk frogs from you. Everyone can learn learn from there mistake and move on, and if that is the case then I commend them. You keep saying as Lou pointed out, You have had enough of DB and are leaving, but not before trashing RETF girl, me and then posting a wanted ad for RETFs. I wish you luck, hope your frogs test clean for your sake and theirs and that you do enjoy them. Frogs are amazing creatures and I hope we can all learn something from them. I don't think you to be a cruel or mean person, and I can barley imagine what you and RETF girl felt losing frogs or seeing your frogs get sick. I know the pain in losing frogs from old age, impaction, or for no apparent reason. Like I said before I am not here to be rude or mean, though you can judge me however you want.


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## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> Oh yes I see your held your tongue there. I did not say YOU had a frog mill, I said they are not the way to save frogs. And the frogs you have right now, yes not as many as before. Nice of your to judge me based on what... hearsay. You said you never talked to the other party involved and you never asked me anything so...? People will take sides, I don't care this is not about me. This is about you, sick frogs, and the distribution of those frogs. Don't try and twist my words. I know about RETF's I have kept many over they years and knew a breeder long ago. I know they lay tons of eggs. I also know that yes obviously people do breed to make a living, I am not knocking that. This economy sucks and if this is a means for people then yay. I personally think you rushed into it but thats just me. I am just a face in a sea of face. If you remember despite your problems here on DB before this incident I was glad to communicate with you about your frogs and even interested in purchasing milk frogs from you. Everyone can learn learn from there mistake and move on, and if that is the case then I commend them. You keep saying as Lou pointed out, You have had enough of DB and are leaving, but not before trashing RETF girl, me and then posting a wanted ad for RETFs. I wish you luck, hope your frogs test clean for your sake and theirs and that you do enjoy them. Frogs are amazing creatures and I hope we can all learn something from them. I don't think you to be a cruel or mean person, and I can barley imagine what you and RETF girl felt losing frogs or seeing your frogs get sick. I know the pain in losing frogs from old age, impaction, or for no apparent reason. Like I said before I am not here to be rude or mean, though you can judge me however you want.


I dont judge...your fine. Im just upset you took my situation to that level.
I stay because I care and want a resolution. Maybe my choice of words is not the best.


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## Cfrog

For that I think is admirably, to stay and have to re-hash this over and over. THere can be a lot of name calling and childish behavior and like I said before I commend you for discussing this in public forum, not everyone will do that, as we know with my situation. NO I don't know all of what is said behind my back, and even when asked I still say I am grateful for past transactions. I am not hear to tear you or anyone else down. I do think we all need to be willing to look at situations from other perspectives. I posted on this thread so (and maybe my choice of words wasn't the best) you could see how it looks from an outsider.


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> I dont have that many frogs anymore. I'm down to 38. I had that many with the RETF and Whites babies. In any case no. I did GROUP SWABS...swabbed every frog on one swab in that enclosure. VETDNA Said that is sufficient and ANY trace of chytrid or rana will be picked up.
> I sanitized the effected tanks yes. I did NOT sanitize the NEGATIVE enclosures. I didnt want to risk at the time of taking them out of a clean enclosure to be exposed to anything via handling or transfer. Dont worry I will be doing more tests. I support the idea of testing before the shows now.
> 
> EDIT: Actually You have every right to worry. But be rest assured....I will be doing more tests of EVERY enclosure again.


Will you be sharing a copy of the results of all these tests?


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> Will you be sharing a copy of the results of all these tests?


Yes. I dont see any harm with doing that.


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## FroggyKnight

CJ PELCH said:


> Yes. I dont see any harm with doing that.


Thanks for being so open on this! I'm looking forward to hearing the results


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## Splash&Dash

I would still have a very hard time trusting the results of any testing here. There just have been way too many lies from this poster in general and this topic in particular


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## FroggyKnight

Splash&Dash said:


> I would still have a very hard time trusting the results of any testing here. There just have been way too many lies from this poster in general and this topic in particular


IMO, any results that come back negative should remain suspect and I'm not saying this because of the situation. I tend to always lean toward the safe side and any frog that has been affected should never be assumed to be 'cured'. Still, a copy of the results would be appreciated.


----------



## Splash&Dash

FroggyKnight said:


> IMO, any results that come back negative should remain suspect and I'm not saying this because of the situation. I tend to always lean toward the safe side and any frog that has been affected should never be assumed to be 'cured'. Still, a copy of the results would be appreciated.


there are also some pretty obvious ways to misrepresent the test results.


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## Ed

FroggyKnight said:


> IMO, any results that come back negative should remain suspect and I'm not saying this because of the situation. I tend to always lean toward the safe side and any frog that has been affected should never be assumed to be 'cured'. Still, a copy of the results would be appreciated.


With proper treatment, it is pretty easily cured.. One of the only real issues with testing is if the frog is in the early stages of infection as the swab can miss the fungus resulting in a false negative result. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## FroggyKnight

Ed said:


> With proper treatment, it is pretty easily cured.. One of the only real issues with testing is if the frog is in the early stages of infection as the swab can miss the fungus resulting in a false negative result.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Exactly, a false negative can create a false sense of security. Assume the worst.


----------



## Bcs TX

One thing that is missing on this thread is it is the responsibility of everyone to do a proper QT and test (esp. for chytrid) on their frogs, even if bought from someone who has tested, very few do.

IMO this thread is ridiculous, pointing fingers and probably individuals throwing rocks while living in "glass houses." 

Mistakes were made from both buyer and seller not doing proper QT and testing. If you do not want bd in your collection (not sure what the frog's had that retf gal had that she received from CJ) but think all this could have been avoided or handled better if QT and testing were done.

All frogs I receive no matter who I buy them from are QT and tested.

Out of curiosity sake have the individuals attacking CJ tested their frogs for chytrid????


----------



## FroggyKnight

Bcs TX said:


> One thing that is missing on this thread is it is the responsibility of everyone to do a proper QT and test (esp. for chytrid) on their frogs, even if bought from someone who has tested, very few do.
> 
> IMO this thread is ridiculous, pointing fingers and probably individuals throwing rocks while living in "glass houses."
> 
> Mistakes were made from both buyer and seller not doing proper QT and testing. If you do not want bd in your collection (not sure what the frog's had that retf gal had that she received from CJ) but think all this could have been avoided or handled better if QT and testing were done.
> 
> All frogs I receive no matter who I buy them from are QT and tested.
> 
> Out of curiosity sake have the individuals attacking CJ tested their frogs for chytrid????


You bring up many great points and great questions as well. I agree if a proper quarantine procedure was in place that this situation could have been avoided. With that said, not even the best of quarantine procedures can eliminate EVERY disease. In other words, tragedy can strike the best of us. I'm not saying it is important, I'm simply stating that it is not 100% guaranteed to stop disease.

I definitely agree with the your statement saying that the tread is ridiculous. Many times on this thread tempers took hold and unwarranted insults/accusations were made. That does not take away from the knowledge this thread has given us though. It shows us how big of a risk disease is when introducing wild caught animals or even those who have been exposed to wild animals. It also shows us how quarantine can save lives when done properly.

I highly doubt that many hobbyists here have animals that they have tested for chytrid. And even if they did, I know it would make no difference to how I would quarantine frogs. chytrid testing or not, I ALWAYS assume the worst and act on it.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Bcs TX said:


> IMO this thread is ridiculous, pointing fingers and probably individuals throwing rocks while living in "glass houses."


Then I suggest you spend more time actually reading the thread and noting much of the criticism has to do with the constant peddling of falsehoods, as opposed to simply having the disease in a collection and/or not testing.


----------



## Bcs TX

Splash&Dash said:


> Then I suggest you spend more time actually reading the thread and noting much of the criticism has to do with the constant peddling of falsehoods, as opposed to simply having the disease in a collection and/or not testing.


Do you QT and test YOUR frogs?? Or just throw stones from your glass house?
Your collection and their progeny's health you sell to others is your responsibility not the breeder or the individual(s) you buy your frogs from...
The same goes to the buyers of your frogs, throw dice or do simple protocols of husbandry.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Bcs TX said:


> Do you QT and test YOUR frogs?? Or just throw stones from your glass house?


I haven't even bought any frogs in 6 years. But even if I didn't, the issue raised by many here wasn't the act of contracting a disease, but the attempts to hide it, shift blame, obfuscate on the details of what exactly happened. I'm not sure why you would want to dishonestly ignore that rather huge aspect of the discussion, but imagine it's based on some sort of agenda on your part. Which isn't likely to be well served by hitching a ride on the SS Pelch




> Your collection and their progeny's health you sell to others is your responsibility not the breeder or the individual(s) you buy your frogs from...


I don't breed my frogs 




> The same goes to the buyers of your frogs, throw dice or do simple protocols of husbandry.


Again, I suggest you read the thread and take note of the constant lying and blame shifting, and how much of the criticism evolves around that. 

In fact, I can't think of a sillier thread for someone to act like a person was simply being attacked for having sick frogs. But here you are doing it


----------



## Splash&Dash

Bcs TX said:


> Your collection and their progeny's health you sell to others is your responsibility not the breeder or the individual(s) you buy your frogs from...


PS can you tell me how the above statement makes any sense?


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## frogface

Splash&Dash said:


> PS can you tell me how the above statement makes any sense?


Clearly, your frogs progeny's health is your responsibility but the breeder who sells you frogs is not responsible for his frog's progeny's health. Ok?


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## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> Clearly, your frogs progeny's health is your responsibility but the breeder who sells you frogs is not responsible for his frog's progeny's health. Ok?


cool, I thought that meth-coated fork I was actively driving into my brain stem was having some negative consequences


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## FroggyKnight

bcs TX, 

Do you test for chytrid, I know I haven't. 

Just a thought….


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## Splash&Dash

FroggyKnight said:


> bcs TX,
> 
> Do you test for chytrid, I know I haven't.
> 
> Just a thought….


Yes she does, and is one of the few people very open about her results


----------



## Ed

One of the things people should also keep in mind about chytrid infection in frogs is that it only tends to kill frogs at temperatures below 78-80 F. If you are keeping your frogs in a well ventilated enclosure, and routinely above 78-80 F, you shouldn't see any issues with chytrid. In fact access to higher temperatures (such as above 80 F) can allow the frogs to clear it themselves. 

While chytrid can wipe out a collection it typically requires some issues with husbandry to accomplish the wipe out. Giving the frogs access to temperatures more like those they would normally be exposed to in the wild as opposed to the temperature suggestions required to accommodate tightly sealed enclosures can go a long way towards reducing the risk to the collections. 

The thing most people should be concerned about with chytrid is the potential release of it to the local environment. There is emerging data that indicates that the virulence varies with the strain and it is possible for strains to combine resulting in even more effective ability to kill the frogs. For a brief discussion on the virulence see http://eprints.jcu.edu.au/6216/1/6216_Berger_et_al_2005.pdf 

For an interesting take on the impact of temperature PLOS ONE: Nothing a Hot Bath Won't Cure: Infection Rates of Amphibian Chytrid Fungus Correlate Negatively with Water Temperature under Natural Field Settings 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Bcs TX

Yes I test for chytrid and have read the whole thread. 
My point is this could have been avoided if he tested.


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## CJ PELCH

Ed, 

Articles were very educational. Thank you.
It did arise a question though. It mentioned monitoring the disease through "toe tips." I have no idea what that entails. Would you happen to know this? Please elaborate if possible. Also this would also explain why I had a zero mortality rate to this disease after keeping them in the enclosure since December of 2012. I keep my frog room temp around 78 to 82 depending on outdoor temps that infiltrate through windows. Once again thank you.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Bcs TX said:


> Yes I test for chytrid and have read the whole thread.
> My point is this could have been avoided if he tested.


Like all things in life, we should also recognize that testing and quarantining isn't always effective. And shit still happens. So I'm not going to fault someone for simply having sick frogs or a disease showing up in their collection (I also rather someone learn from their mistake, as opposed to be socially ostracized for it). But what we have here is quite different and I don't think most of the criticism is unwarranted

For example, if CJ provided you with negative test results, would you buy frogs from him, or would you be concerned about the fellow doctoring the results in some way? For me, it would undoubtedly be the later. 

On the opposite end of that, I would trust you and frog face to be upfront and honest with any issues you had. Which is a very key difference here


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## CJ PELCH

Splash&Dash said:


> Like all things in life, we should also recognize that testing and quarantining isn't always effective. And shit still happens. So I'm not going to fault someone for simply having sick frogs or a disease showing up in their collection (I also rather someone learn from their mistake, as opposed to be socially ostracized for it). But what we have here is quite different and I don't think most of the criticism is unwarranted
> 
> For example, if CJ provided you with negative test results, would you buy frogs from him, or would you be concerned about the fellow doctoring the results in some way? For me, it would undoubtedly be the later.
> 
> On the opposite end of that, I would trust you and frog face to be upfront and honest with any issues you had. Which is a very key difference here


You make it sound like I didnt tell the truth that they were sick....as soon as I found out after testing I clearly came forward to admit and started treatment PROMPTLY. In addition I will be retesting the same frogs more than once for my own satisfaction and will post results for yours. You also make it sound like I test my own frogs and will provide false negative test results.....for this specific event in this case I am appalled that you would think that. If I misunderstood you, I apologize
Out of my entire frog first aid kid..this treatment was the cheapest out of everything. Panacur..metro...silversulfidiazine...batril. were far more expensive than the lamisil to treat this and although quarantine procedures were more strict its actually the easiest and most affordable treatment I have given.


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## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> You make it sound like I didnt tell the truth that they were sick....as soon as I found out after testing I clearly came forward to admit and started treatment PROMPTLY. In addition I will be retesting the same frogs more than once for my own satisfaction and will post results for yours. You also make it sound like I test my own frogs and will provide false negative test results.....for this specific event in this case I am appalled that you would think that. If I misunderstood you, I apologize
> Out of my entire frog first aid kid..this treatment was the cheapest out of everything. Panacur..metro...silversulfidiazine...batril. were far more expensive than the lamisil to treat this and although quarantine procedures were more strict its actually the easiest and most affordable treatment I have given.


People can simply read this and your other threads and come to their own decision to trust you or not. Openly debating the issue is a rather moot point by now


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## CJ PELCH

Splash&Dash said:


> People can simply read this and your other threads and come to their own decision to trust you or not. Openly debating the issue is a rather moot point by now


Well splash if you are not going to believe the test results from VETDNA pdf file....then why bother posting it right? Ill just go about my business and forget about my best interest and the care of others or the frog community right? Well. **** me then.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Well splash if you are not going to believe the test results from VETDNA pdf file....then why bother posting it right? Ill just go about my business and forget about my best interest and the care of others or the frog community right? Well. **** me then.


Any PDF file can be altered. The question is if anyone trusts you. Realize that you've lied all over the place, so any thing you can do will be suspect, sucks for you bro, but you made your bed.


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## mydumname

Besides altering file....could also send a swab that is brand new and get negative results. Not saying this will be done....just saying its easy to fake. Again this can go back to the purchaser to do their own due diligence.


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## CJ PELCH

True. But if that's the case you guys are worried about give me your email and ill have vetdna directly email the results the day they test like I did with michael novy. That way they wont even touch my eyes before you.

you guys are all hyped up. I never hid the fact my frog had chytrid nor do I have any reason to.


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## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> True. But if that's the case you guys are worried about give me your email and ill have vetdna directly email the results the day they test like I did with michael novy. That way they wont even touch my eyes before you.
> 
> you guys are all hyped up. I never hid the fact my frog had chytrid nor do I have any reason to.


What's to stop you from sending them a clean swab?

If your frogs are still sick you have every reason to hide it. On the off chance that anyone would still consider buying frogs from you, they're certainly going to want to know.


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## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> What's to stop you from sending them a clean swab?
> 
> If your frogs are still sick you have every reason to hide it. On the off chance that anyone would still consider buying frogs from you, they're certainly going to want to know.


Your being rediculas...the test results I sent out before to were positive on one tank and negative on another. That's proof enough im not willing to hide it....


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## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Your being rediculas...the test results I sent out before to were positive on one tank and negative on another. That's proof enough im not willing to hide it....


Am I? Based on your pattern of lies and dishonesty here, I wouldn't put it past you. What I'm pointing out is you offering to provide test results is not concrete evidence of no infection. The key in the equation is your lack of credibility. Just because you didn't hide something in the past, does not mean you won't hide it in the future. The way I see it, you have a hell of a lot to lose if your frogs come back still sick.

I hope you have decided to be honest from this point forward, but you saying so doesn't mean I or anyone else will necessarily trust you. It's up to you to recognize that fact and why.


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## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> True. But if that's the case you guys are worried about give me your email and ill have vetdna directly email the results the day they test like I did with michael novy. That way they wont even touch my eyes before you.
> 
> you guys are all hyped up. I never hid the fact my frog had chytrid nor do I have any reason to.


the point is just because you have a negative result doesn't mean it relates to the animal in question


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## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Am I? Based on your pattern of lies and dishonesty here, I wouldn't put it past you. What I'm pointing out is you offering to provide test results is not concrete evidence of no infection. The key in the equation is your lack of credibility. Just because you didn't hide something in the past, does not mean you won't hide it in the future. The way I see it, you have a hell of a lot to lose if your frogs come back still sick.
> 
> I hope you have decided to be honest from this point forward, but you saying so doesn't mean I or anyone else will necessarily trust you. It's up to you to recognize that fact and why.


Yes you are...no offense.


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## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Yes you are...no offense.


And that is why you're in the situation you're in. Instead of accepting your responsibility for the situation, you continue to blame others.


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## Halter

...and step around questions with dishonesty. 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> And that is why you're in the situation you're in. Instead of accepting your responsibility for the situation, you continue to blame others.


Im sorry am I blaming you for something? I'm pretty sure I just stated you went overboard with your remark and not blaming you. I also accepted full responsibility for chytrid nothing more...nothing less.... and there are many that agree as well becides me.

I never blamed anyone on anything...i just put down facts from both parties...


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## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Im sorry am I blaming you for something? I'm pretty sure I just stated you went overboard with your remark and not blaming you. I also accepted full responsibility for chytrid nothing more...nothing less.... and there are many that agree as well becides me.


I'm talking about you blaming others, has nothing to do with you thinking I'm being "rediculas".

However, my remarks are not overboard, in fact, given your track record, they're spot on. The fact that YOU think so, makes me even more sure. It's obvious what you like to do. It's a classic, my poop doesn't stink approach, as long as I try and make it look like everyone else's poop smells too.

But hey, you say many agree with you? Even a broken watch is right twice a day. So good for you.


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## Halter

What upsets.me is that u dont seem to take responsibility for potentially spreading that disease around for months! 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> What upsets.me is that u dont seem to take responsibility for potentially spreading that disease around for months!
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


You have no idea of the customer relations I have been doing to UNDO that situation...so your wrong there.
I only sold frogs at the show I havnt been doing it for months. Ive pretty much got it all handled now.


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## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I'm talking about you blaming others, has nothing to do with you thinking I'm being "rediculas".
> 
> However, my remarks are not overboard, in fact, given your track record, they're spot on. The fact that YOU think so, makes me even more sure. It's obvious what you like to do. It's a classic, my poop doesn't stink approach, as long as I try and make it look like everyone else's poop smells too.
> 
> But hey, you say many agree with you? Even a broken watch is right twice a day. So good for you.


I bet to differ. Sorry.


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## Halter

Like what? yiu said u slimmed down your collection to 38. Were they all negative? Just thinking about it im seeing more inconsistencies with your stories.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Like what? yiu said u slimmed down your collection to 38. Were they all negative? Just thinking about it im seeing more inconsistencies with your stories.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


No they all died. (I did a water change and something in the water killed close to that amount) Could of been water temp too... They all died in about 15 minutes. I was including tadpoles in that count. Thats the white tree frogs.... The red eyes...75% of them never made it to froglet stage...i am relating the problem to chytrid...after research of chytrid in tadpoles. The few red eye babies I did have. Never made it past chytrid treatment. They died in the middle of it.


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## Halter

You said this after I expressed my concern about spreading this. Then you go and say:



CJ PELCH said:


> I already said they all tested negative but the red eye...or did you overlook that post?


Then later in this thread I said:


Halter said:


> I dont know, I think CJ mentioned that he got all of his other tanks tested, lets just hope that he actually did. We can only just hope this is the only isolated incident and that we dont have to see this again, especially from the same 'dealer'


Then you said it was the lone female that survived, then later in this thread you say:


CJ PELCH said:


> Yes. I sent the results to RETF girl and michael novy. The red eyes were the only carriers. I will be doing more tests PRIOR to my january show.


While you said in this you will display the results of a negative chytrid test, you flat out contradict yourself and say all of your red eyes were infected not just one...



CJ PELCH said:


> No they all died. (I did a water change and something in the water killed close to that amount) Could of been water temp too... They all died in about 15 minutes. I was including tadpoles in that count. Thats the white tree frogs.... The red eyes...75% of them never made it to froglet stage...i am relating the problem to chytrid...after research of chytrid in tadpoles. The few red eye babies I did have. Never made it past chytrid treatment. They died in the middle of it.


Im sorry that happened. But now all the sudden half of your frogs die all the sudden from a waterchange? and your relating it to chytrid? So your whites were infected or not? 
Reading these dont make sense to me. IM prodding because I WANT TO KNOW where these frogs are going and it scares me that you lost 50% of your stock in under a week after such an outbreak happened!


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## Halter

Cj I think something that can help your case here. Prove us wrong. Let us see your frogroom with pictures, i mean honestly man, i really cant believe that i did all that-


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## FroggyKnight

I would very much like to see tank pics along with the full frog rooms. I assume they are still in separate buildings?


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## oddlot

I'm also curious about your "4 employees" in 4 different buildings with only 38 frogs to take care of.


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## CJ PELCH

As far as I know you cant test tadpoles for chytrid...but they have a small noticeable differences noted with photos in this reference:

http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/mgray/wfs493/Lectures/Chytrid2013.pdf


No the whites died from a water change awhile ago. I told mike novey because Im the one that bought 200 of those darn tadpoles. I had them for about a month or two and did water changes ever 3 days. Unfortunately the last one I did the water temp was a bit to high. Shocked them and died. Im assuming...it was so wierd...watching them spin in circles...by the time i figured it out it was to late.

Well my frog room is my dining room...turned it over to a frog room.. I have 2 racks... but it also has 2 dubia roach colonies and some fruit fly colonies as well along with other items at the bottom. Yeah.. Ill get a pic for you.

4 Facilities yes...but 2/3's of the frogs are at my house. Rest are at the other frog breeders house. He strictly does darts though. Im to new to darts...although i did just breed my first pair of azureus 2 weeks ago...that was pretty exciting...

The business I own..does snakes...arachnids...insects... Looks like we start bearded dragons next June as well on the east coast. The business is not only frogs. I personally only do tree frogs..but got lucky with the darts....


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## Halter

oddlot said:


> I'm also curious about your "4 employees" in 4 different buildings with only 38 frogs to take care of.


Likewise, Do your employees interact with your frogs? Do you take care of their frogs? Did they test their stock for chytrid since they interact with you on im assuming a daily basis?
Can we see their frogrooms as well?


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Likewise, Do your employees interact with your frogs? Do you take care of their frogs? Did they test their stock for chytrid since they interact with you on im assuming a daily basis?
> Can we see their frogrooms as well?



No interactions from my frogs no...I am doing tests on the frogs on the second facility yes. No I do not take care of their animals, nor do they care for mine... No not daily. Once a week for weekly meetings...No animals are involved in these meetings other than looking at the tanks... Just a weekly or biweekly meeting in my living room discussing our situations and how we can help each other out and the company.

We are all breeders that just banded together that made a business. We all do our own thing..myself tree frogs...another guy dart frogs... the general manager does snakes. (shes really the smartest of the company) and the other guy does insects...


----------



## curlykid

pics or it didn't happen.


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> No interactions from my frogs no...I am doing tests on the frogs on the second facility yes. No I do not take care of their animals, nor do they care for mine... No not daily. Once a week for weekly meetings...No animals are involved in these meetings other than looking at the tanks... Just a weekly or biweekly meeting in my living room discussing our situations and how we can help each other out and the company.
> 
> We are all breeders that just banded together that made a business. We all do our own thing..myself tree frogs...another guy dart frogs... the general manager does snakes. (shes really the smartest of the company) and the other guy does insects...



Oh,Ok so they really aren't YOUR employees.She should probably write all of your responses then.Thanks for addressing my curiosity.


----------



## Splash&Dash

I really can't believe you guys are still trying to make sense of all this


----------



## CJ PELCH

They are my employees...Commissioned based pay with taxes.


----------



## CJ PELCH

3 of 5 photos shown.


----------



## CJ PELCH

the last 2 photos...one being the frog rack.


----------



## Halter

Splash&Dash said:


> I really can't believe you guys are still trying to make sense of all this


- I prodded further because he said he lost more than 50% of his collection in a week.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Meh...might as well get close ups.


----------



## CJ PELCH

THe next photo is of the rack BEFORE the incident occured with ALL the tadpoles


----------



## scoy

I would love to hear from these “employees“


----------



## CJ PELCH

Photo of frog rack before incident and and before I moved with all the tadpoles.


----------



## CJ PELCH

scoy said:


> I would love to hear from these “employees“


You guys can..... just show up to the reptile super show and talk to Kaitlin. She's running my booth this weekend. She is also general manager of the company and were discussing co-ownership. I wont be there, nor will any of my frogs...one employee will have his baby pixies...along with his baby albino pacs and numerous insects.... the other guy will have his leuc tads and fruit fly cultures. My scorpion guy will not be present to my knowledge... He hasnt had any scorpions drop yet.


----------



## curlykid

cute frogs.


----------



## CJ PELCH

curlykid said:


> cute frogs.


Thank you.


----------



## frogface

CJ I have to say that I admire your gumption (can't think of a better word) for sticking with this thread. So, thanks for that.


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> No interactions from my frogs no...I am doing tests on the frogs on the second facility yes. No I do not take care of their animals, nor do they care for mine... No not daily. Once a week for weekly meetings...No animals are involved in these meetings other than looking at the tanks... Just a weekly or biweekly meeting in my living room discussing our situations and how we can help each other out and the company.
> 
> We are all breeders that just banded together that made a business. We all do our own thing..myself tree frogs...another guy dart frogs... the general manager does snakes. (shes really the smartest of the company) and the other guy does insects...



Again,just curious,but if you all breed your own animals,only meet in your living room once every other week to "talk",no one touches your frogs, and you all "banded" together to make a company,how are they "your"employees?
Are they members here and do they know they are "your" employees? HMMMM!

Just curious.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> CJ I have to say that I admire your gumption (can't think of a better word) for sticking with this thread. So, thanks for that.


I lost many nights sleep over this thread... I dont know why I stick with it. 90% of it has been making my male pattern baldness into a full blown conehead.


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> Again,just curious,but if you all breed your own animals,only meet in your living room once every other week to "talk",no one touches your frogs, and you all "banded" together to make a company,how are they "your"employees?
> Are they members here and do they know they are "your" employees? HMMMM!
> 
> Just curious.


Oh...lou... despite you being a pain sometimes I sure have come to admire you..

Well I pay them. Being one. I pay taxes for them...being 2. 

One is a member here, some of you already know.
www.airexotics.com
look at the staff page. 
I told him to stay out of the thread for most of it because I didnt want him defending me. I said they are my frogs and can handle it on my own. I asked him to step in after it got out of hand so he made a statement. He will be at the show vending at my booth if you want to ask questions. He has a business card as well so if you do choose to talk to him grab his card please make it after the show so he can answer everyones questions you may have with out impeding the customers wanting to buy his items. Please and thank you.


----------



## mydumname

CJ PELCH said:


> No interactions from my frogs no...I am doing tests on the frogs on the second facility yes. No I do not take care of their animals, nor do they care for mine... No not daily. Once a week for weekly meetings...No animals are involved in these meetings other than looking at the tanks... Just a weekly or biweekly meeting in my living room discussing our situations and how we can help each other out and the company.
> 
> We are all breeders that just banded together that made a business. We all do our own thing..myself tree frogs...another guy dart frogs... the general manager does snakes. (shes really the smartest of the company) and the other guy does insects...




I picture a group of middle school kids.....though I know you aren't.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> CJ I have to say that I admire your gumption (can't think of a better word) for sticking with this thread. So, thanks for that.


That is a good word for it... I had to look it up.


----------



## CJ PELCH

mydumname said:


> I picture a group of middle school kids.....though I know you aren't.


I understand why you say that and I would assume the same as well.
We are just working with the budget we have. Unfortunatly that means no conference table or office at this point in time. 

2 college grads .. 2 military members...and a highschool grad.


----------



## SpyderFemme

Hi! I'm Gina. From the "written confession" above somewhere on page 18 I think?

Wow this kid keeps digging himself deeper and deeper huh? 

I'm not going into my whole boring story but I will explain my "confession" and how laughable it is. I never wanted to be dragged into any of this BS. It's juvenile. I feel like an idiot even typing this but comments were taken so out of context it's hilarious.

I bought frogs...*frogs ALL died*. 2 Milks and 6 RETF (4 tads/ 2 froglets) I know tads don't really count... But my tadpole death rate is really, really low. 
I've been keeping frogs since the early 90's so I'm not a novice to proper husbandry. These deaths were not from my lack of care. I already own two healthy milk frogs so they are not new to me.
Blah blah blah, between the seller and myself. Lots of friendly chit chat back and forth via facebook from both sides. Shit happens. I understand. I'm over it. He is so worried about his "reputation" and I told him I wouldn't post or say anything about it online which I didn't...until now. And this is ONLY a tidbit. (btw my friend bought 2 milks at the same show and hers are dead too) 

But then I was sent, courtesy of House of Frogs, a thread about all this disease stuff going on. Now I'm worried about the rest of my collection. I have over 30 frogs/toads/newts that are susceptible to this crap. So I confront him on this because he never mentioned it. And he tells me that all his RETF that newly morphed were tested and fine. So I asked him What about the milks? He tells me that he didn't actually breed the milks that Mike did. And that all the milks he bought for himself, from Mike, died as well. He thought at first that it may have been his fault but now he thinks it must have been the frogs. Then he said he had never gotten bad frogs from Mike in the past. And in another conversation he said he wasn't going to flip frogs for Mike anymore. (Didn't say why though)

So I was talking to one person about my situation and the very next day I get a message from the seller of my dead frogs basically accusing me of telling all these people about my experience and it's all over a forum and it went viral and everyone is talking about it. My initial reply was ...well it wasn't from me because I only told one person about the situation and that was Jon's wife/fiancé (I couldn't remember if they had gotten married yet) I don't have my computer so I can't see the thread he's talking about or who posted it. I just know that I didn't tell all these people he's talking about anything! He was saying it was some guy Rusty, who I didn't know. (my bad Jon, I forgot that was your username!) So in my mind I didn't tell Rusty ANYTHING and I didn't tell "all these people" who are talking about my situation ANYTHING. So they are just full of crap talking about me and stuff they don't know anything about. Keep in mind I never saw the post and didn't realize who Rusty was and that nobody was EVEN actually talking about it!!

I was also told that basically because of what I told "everyone" that now I couldn't get my partial refund back and no one is going to buy from him at the Oct. show and this has ruined his relationship with Mike and now he won't be able to get new RETF from him and this has basically ruined his business. Total effin drama queen. Seriously.

So I don't even know who Mike is but I never said that the seller directly blamed Mike to anyone. But if the shoe fits and someone puts it together that quick...I can't help it. *Jon/Rusty/House of Frogs DID NOT LIE* and he heard my story directly. There is so much more I could say but it's seriously a waste of my energy! In the end I'm down $$ and frogs but I'm sort of glad they are all dead and not possibly contaminating the rest of my frog family.

Too bad really because he seemed like a nice guy :/ Good luck dude…Because you are going to need it.


----------



## frogface

Thank you, Gina. So sorry you got caught up in it too. I'm hoping for the best for the rest of your collection.


----------



## frogface

CJ, here is what I would do if this happened to me:

I would put all remaining frogs into plastic tubs, whether they had tested positive or not. Discard every frog related item; dusting cup, sprayer, supplement bags, anything that was used for the frogs. Then I would tear the insides out of every single tank, double bag it, no, triple bag it. Dump bleach into water before putting it down the drain. Scrub and sanitize every single tank, inside and out. Sanitize the rack. Wear gloves and change them frequently. *DO NOT DO IT OUTSIDE! DO NOT EXPOSE YOUR LOCAL WILDLIFE TO CHYTRID. 
*
Then I would keep the frogs comfy in their QT tubs for a while. Get them all tested or consider just treating them all. I don't know if that's a good idea but it's probably what I would do. 

IMO, it's best to assume that everything is contaminated.


----------



## Splash&Dash

SpyderFemme said:


> Blah blah blah, between the seller and myself. Lots of friendly chit chat back and forth via facebook from both sides. Shit happens. I understand. I'm over it. He is so worried about his "reputation" and I told him I wouldn't post or say anything about it online which I didn't...until now. And this is ONLY a tidbit. (btw my friend bought 2 milks at the same show and hers are dead too)
> 
> But then I was sent, courtesy of House of Frogs, a thread about all this disease stuff going on. Now I'm worried about the rest of my collection. I have over 30 frogs/toads/newts that are susceptible to this crap. So I confront him on this because he never mentioned it. And he tells me that all his RETF that newly morphed were tested and fine. So I asked him What about the milks? He tells me that he didn't actually breed the milks that Mike did. And that all the milks he bought for himself, from Mike, died as well. He thought at first that it may have been his fault but now he thinks it must have been the frogs. Then he said he had never gotten bad frogs from Mike in the past. And in another conversation he said he wasn't going to flip frogs for Mike anymore. (Didn't say why though)


the amount of pointless drama this guy causes for himself is rather amazing


----------



## CJ PELCH

SpyderFemme said:


> Hi! I'm Gina. From the "written confession" above somewhere on page 18 I think?
> 
> Wow this kid keeps digging himself deeper and deeper huh?
> 
> I'm not going into my whole boring story but I will explain my "confession" and how laughable it is. I never wanted to be dragged into any of this BS. It's juvenile. I feel like an idiot even typing this but comments were taken so out of context it's hilarious.
> 
> I bought frogs...*frogs ALL died*. 2 Milks and 6 RETF (4 tads/ 2 froglets) I know tads don't really count... But my tadpole death rate is really, really low.
> I've been keeping frogs since the early 90's so I'm not a novice to proper husbandry. These deaths were not from my lack of care. I already own two healthy milk frogs so they are not new to me.
> Blah blah blah, between the seller and myself. Lots of friendly chit chat back and forth via facebook from both sides. Shit happens. I understand. I'm over it. He is so worried about his "reputation" and I told him I wouldn't post or say anything about it online which I didn't...until now. And this is ONLY a tidbit. (btw my friend bought 2 milks at the same show and hers are dead too)
> 
> But then I was sent, courtesy of House of Frogs, a thread about all this disease stuff going on. Now I'm worried about the rest of my collection. I have over 30 frogs/toads/newts that are susceptible to this crap. So I confront him on this because he never mentioned it. And he tells me that all his RETF that newly morphed were tested and fine. So I asked him What about the milks? He tells me that he didn't actually breed the milks that Mike did. And that all the milks he bought for himself, from Mike, died as well. He thought at first that it may have been his fault but now he thinks it must have been the frogs. Then he said he had never gotten bad frogs from Mike in the past. And in another conversation he said he wasn't going to flip frogs for Mike anymore. (Didn't say why though)
> 
> So I was talking to one person about my situation and the very next day I get a message from the seller of my dead frogs basically accusing me of telling all these people about my experience and it's all over a forum and it went viral and everyone is talking about it. My initial reply was ...well it wasn't from me because I only told one person about the situation and that was Jon's wife/fiancé (I couldn't remember if they had gotten married yet) I don't have my computer so I can't see the thread he's talking about or who posted it. I just know that I didn't tell all these people he's talking about anything! He was saying it was some guy Rusty, who I didn't know. (my bad Jon, I forgot that was your username!) So in my mind I didn't tell Rusty ANYTHING and I didn't tell "all these people" who are talking about my situation ANYTHING. So they are just full of crap talking about me and stuff they don't know anything about. Keep in mind I never saw the post and didn't realize who Rusty was and that nobody was EVEN actually talking about it!!
> 
> I was also told that basically because of what I told "everyone" that now I couldn't get my partial refund back and no one is going to buy from him at the Oct. show and this has ruined his relationship with Mike and now he won't be able to get new RETF from him and this has basically ruined his business. Total effin drama queen. Seriously.
> 
> So I don't even know who Mike is but I never said that the seller directly blamed Mike to anyone. But if the shoe fits and someone puts it together that quick...I can't help it. *Jon/Rusty/House of Frogs DID NOT LIE* and he heard my story directly. There is so much more I could say but it's seriously a waste of my energy! In the end I'm down $$ and frogs but I'm sort of glad they are all dead and not possibly contaminating the rest of my frog family.
> 
> Too bad really because he seemed like a nice guy :/ Good luck dude…Because you are going to need it.


Thanks Gina for making this post. 100% of this is true. 
Splash...none of this is pointless drama. Im trying to work with the people here. I honestly thought it was my fault. Hence my reputation being tarnished. Trying to fix it but VERY stressfull. Yes I am no longer flipping frogs from mike. I just plan on buying 8 red eyes from him after EVERYTHING is clean and start from the ground up with captive bred breeding. I don't know what the hell went wrong with the milks. I had mike ship them to me a 2 days before the show. They started to die not even 1 week post shipment. Im not here to pass blame...I just don't know how the hell it happened. When I lost close to 80% of my collection in the past 2 months and getting flack from here and customers. HOLLY CRAP! I was bouncing off walls. I was about to give up. The only thing I have NOT lost to chytrid or mysterious causes is the whites tree frogs and dart frogs. I lost the whites tadpoles yes...but that was the water change temp. Ya ill need the luck. This is why i'm not selling my product at this show. May miss the January show as well. Depends how fast I can get all this stuff done and effectively. Sigh.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> CJ, here is what I would do if this happened to me:
> 
> I would put all remaining frogs into plastic tubs, whether they had tested positive or not. Discard every frog related item; dusting cup, sprayer, supplement bags, anything that was used for the frogs. Then I would tear the insides out of every single tank, double bag it, no, triple bag it. Dump bleach into water before putting it down the drain. Scrub and sanitize every single tank, inside and out. Sanitize the rack. Wear gloves and change them frequently. *DO NOT DO IT OUTSIDE! DO NOT EXPOSE YOUR LOCAL WILDLIFE TO CHYTRID.
> *
> Then I would keep the frogs comfy in their QT tubs for a while. Get them all tested or consider just treating them all. I don't know if that's a good idea but it's probably what I would do.
> 
> IMO, it's best to assume that everything is contaminated.


I have already started.
Local wildlife out here is already exposed to chytrid. I read some article awhile ago about the bull frogs having it in the local ponds.


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## Halter

CJ I'm glad you started that but when I initially brought up all these concerns in the beginning of the thread why did you not say anything why did you try to hide. 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## Halter

For some reason my phone is not letting me at the above post I know that you say the death of the Milky Way not an affiliation with all of the other that's in your collection but how are you actually know that they wernt? 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> CJ I'm glad you started that but when I initially brought up all these concerns in the beginning of the thread why did you not say anything why did you try to hide.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


I didnt hide... I just bottled up man I couldnt take anymore. Please dont take it that way.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> For some reason my phone is not letting me at the above post I know that you say the death of the Milky Way not an affiliation with all of the other that's in your collection but how are you actually know that they wernt?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


I never said its not affiliated. But based on reading articles on chytrid. It wont kill a frog 1 week from exposure.


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## Halter

Cprrect me if I'm wrong please... but I'm pretty sure it can again kill amphibians within a day or two off actually contracting the fungus... Especially if their immune systems are compromised which yours were

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Cprrect me if I'm wrong please... but I'm pretty sure it can again kill amphibians within a day or two off actually contracting the fungus... Especially if their immune systems are compromised which yours were
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


Not sure...but once again.. MINE may have been compromised...but mikes milks? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT. Heres another controlling factor that may be something to ponder: Wildcaught frogs have a stronger immune system then captive breds... 
Ed posted an article about exposure times and death rate a good amount of pages back.


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## Halter

I'm not saying Mikes milk frogs came to you with their immune system compromise what I'm saying is the stress of shipping and being put in a new environment with a deadly disease spreading would in fact make their immune system is compromised

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> I have already started.
> Local wildlife out here is already exposed to chytrid. I read some article awhile ago about the bull frogs having it in the local ponds.


Just to be clear, you will still be careful to not get the chytrid outside, right?

Some bull frogs in local ponds may have it but that doesn't mean that all amphibians in your area have been exposed. Please keep it contained. That has been the ultimate concern of the people on this thread; containing this contagious and deadly fungus.


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## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> Just to be clear, you will still be careful to not get the chytrid outside, right?
> 
> Some bull frogs in local ponds may have it but that doesn't mean that all amphibians in your area have been exposed. Please keep it contained. That has been the ultimate concern of the people on this thread; containing this contagious and deadly fungus.


Well I live in a second story apartment. Theres no way in hell id take anything outside to begin with. SO NO IM NOT GOING TO EFFECT THE LOCAL COMMUNITY WITH MINE.


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## Halter

Frogs can come from the best breeders in United States leave their facility completely healthy arriving at the facility completely healthy but you just take that little bit of stress plus a new environment and that can supprrss the immune system just a little bit just that a little bit could be enough to have something take ahold and kill them that is raging thirst a different collection which in fact is yours

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## Ed

CJ PELCH said:


> : Wildcaught frogs have a stronger immune system then captive breds...


If you got that idea from the article, then you misunderstood. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> I'm not saying Mikes milk frogs came to you with their immune system compromise what I'm saying is the stress of shipping and being put in a new environment with a deadly disease spreading would in fact make their immune system is compromised
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


Well that makes sense... But I think only a scientist can answer this question with knowledge. I don't think that should be left for discussion though unless someone actually KNOWS.


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## CJ PELCH

Ed said:


> If you got that idea from the article, then you misunderstood.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


No article actually. Word of mouth from another breeder.


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## Halter

Actually CJ that's common sense.. Stress suppresses the immune systems it's a fact... I have a chance to browse the Internet I'd be happy to find you a scholarly article on how stress can be a killer people and animals because of the immune suppression that it can cause.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Actually CJ that's common sense.. Stress suppresses the immune systems it's a fact... I have a chance to browse the Internet I'd be happy to find you a scholarly article on how stress can be a killer people and animals because of the immune suppression that it can cause.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


I am aware of stress weakening the immune system. No reason to waste time.


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## Halter

Of course you do. 

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## Judy S

I cannot help but be really curious about the Lamisil...since it is not available in the form that is typically used for frogs...can you please clarify what you used, and how/where you got it??? Since the manufacturer is retooling the site where it is made...it has been unavailable...please explain...


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## Ed

CJ PELCH said:


> I never said its not affiliated. But based on reading articles on chytrid. It wont kill a frog 1 week from exposure.


Actually in at least one study, mortality began on day 8.. so depending on the temperature, the strain and the number of zoospores the frog is exposed to, it is possible for it to happen in less than a week. 

http://eprints.jcu.edu.au/6216/1/6216_Berger_et_al_2005.pdf

Some comments 

Ed


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## JPccusa

CJ PELCH said:


> Well I live in a second story apartment. Theres no way in hell id take anything outside to begin with. SO NO IM NOT GOING TO EFFECT THE LOCAL COMMUNITY WITH MINE.


Just to reiterate frogface's post, even though you can't throw the water outside, make sure to follow proper disinfection procedures before discarding the water in the toilet/bathtub/sink/etc..


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## Ed

CJ PELCH said:


> No article actually. Word of mouth from another breeder.





CJ PELCH said:


> Wildcaught frogs have a stronger immune system then captive breds...
> Ed posted an article about exposure times and death rate a good amount of pages back


If that is the case, then I would strongly suggest paying attention to context as the meaning in the above quote indicates that the reference I provided supported your claim. 

Who was the other "breeder"? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## mydumname

Judy S said:


> I cannot help but be really curious about the Lamisil...since it is not available in the form that is typically used for frogs...can you please clarify what you used, and how/where you got it??? Since the manufacturer is retooling the site where it is made...it has been unavailable...please explain...


Lamasil at spray is available again. I believe that is what people use.


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## mydumname

As for the milk frogs go....how were you keeping them? Did you keep them similar to the whites and red eyes? I don't mean same enclosure....I mean similar ventilation and humidity etc.


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## CJ PELCH

Judy S said:


> I cannot help but be really curious about the Lamisil...since it is not available in the form that is typically used for frogs...can you please clarify what you used, and how/where you got it??? Since the manufacturer is retooling the site where it is made...it has been unavailable...please explain...


It is available at any pharmacy. I got mine at riteaid. I also so it avialable at the NAVY EXCHANGE on the base. SO its readily available. Comes in a spray. Blue bottle. 

1CC lamisil spray (wait 5-10 minutes for alcohol to evaporate)
220ML spring water


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## CJ PELCH

mydumname said:


> As for the milk frogs go....how were you keeping them? Did you keep them similar to the whites and red eyes? I don't mean same enclosure....I mean similar ventilation and humidity etc.


18x18x24 ...water dish.... Moss substrate to hold humidity and some vines. 
75% humidity for the 2 days. Temps were 78-82 with the rest of them.


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## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> Just to be clear, you will still be careful to not get the chytrid outside, right?
> 
> Some bull frogs in local ponds may have it but that doesn't mean that all amphibians in your area have been exposed. Please keep it contained. That has been the ultimate concern of the people on this thread; containing this contagious and deadly fungus.


also, as someone pointed out earlier, it doesn't mean it's the same strain, either


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## Halter

Splash&Dash said:


> also, as someone pointed out earlier, it doesn't mean it's the same strain, either


I wanted to share something that I saw this weekend. I went to a reptile show and I saw a a vendor there, a rather common one. I would rather not say which one. When I got this this particular dealers table I saw that there was some whites tree frogs that had the exact same thing. Every single one had it. Two of them were already dead in the cup, another was on its last limb struggling to stay alive, covered in red open sores, bleeding. I pointed this out to this particular vendor and he took the cup, threw it away and acted like nothing happened. I asked him, are not not concerned about this? He looked at me and walked away. I was absolutely appauled.

Here is another issue. This particular dealer has over 50+ frogs on this table. At times there was a small 10 x 10 x 12 cage with about 15 adults frogs in there as well as a ton in deli cups.

Id be safe to bet that almost every single frog was infected but asymptomatic. Many of these frogs looked like they were packaged up days before and just left in the cups for transport. There was alot of other dead animals on this dealers table as well. It was the saddest thing I have ever seen and it makes me sick.

I really just wanted to share this....I think everyone that participated on this thread can figure out why I am sharing this.
I just thought this was a appropriate story to share in this thread because it apparently ravages many others dealers collections as well.


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## oddlot

Wow that is ridiculous! How can they not give a crap especially with this going on,not to mention that these poor animals are dieing off.The stress of being in the cups like that couldn't have helped.I'm sending you a pm.


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## Splash&Dash

oddlot said:


> Wow that is ridiculous! How can they not give a crap especially with this going on,not to mention that these poor animals are dieing off.The stress of being in the cups like that couldn't have helped.I'm sending you a pm.


I wouldn't mind getting a PM about who this was, either


----------



## FroggyKnight

Please PM me more information about this vendor, if only so I may avoid him i the future…

This kind of thing disgusts me


----------



## frogface

What?! I don't even know what to say.... 

eta: I thought of something to say. WTF IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?!!!


----------



## oddlot

/\ /\ What she said!


----------



## frogface

Well isn't that special



> fully licensed and insured company and maintains current fish and wildlife permits for all states we may visit


----------



## oddlot

The worst part is he sells at a lot of shows (including Frogday) and is not a member here.


----------



## frogface

If he makes his way down south, I will march my frog vet (who vends at the shows; brings cool animals and gives advice to exotic owners) to his table to take a look. Surely there is someone to call to enforce something. I bet she'd know.

eta: Tree frogs are a favorite among young and inexperienced froggers. I can see them dying off and getting flushed or Mom and Dad tossing the carcass out the back door. How to these 'professional' people not see how dangerous it is?


----------



## oddlot

Because unfortunately some only care about their wallets.Obviously that's all this loser cares about if he just tossed the bodies in the trash.


----------



## frogface

oddlot said:


> Because unfortunately some only care about their wallets.Obviously that's all this loser cares about if he just tossed the bodies in the trash.


Won't do his wallet much good when the govt decides that asshats have spread enough chytrid around the US and shuts it all down.


----------



## Ed

Halter said:


> Two of them were already dead in the cup, another was on its last limb struggling to stay alive, covered in red open sores, bleeding.......
> 
> ..... Many of these frogs looked like they were packaged up days before and just left in the cups for transport.


Not excusing anything but if the frogs had been packed up in those containers for a significant period of time, it is possible that they were suffering from bacterial septicemias and/or ammonia poisoning. If there was subpar husbandry, then these are probably a little more likely and can be just as infectious. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## jacobi

Halter said:


> I wanted to share something that I saw this weekend. I went to a reptile show and I saw a a vendor there, a rather common one. I would rather not say which one. When I got this this particular dealers table I saw that there was some whites tree frogs that had the exact same thing. Every single one had it. Two of them were already dead in the cup, another was on its last limb struggling to stay alive, covered in red open sores, bleeding. I pointed this out to this particular vendor and he took the cup, threw it away and acted like nothing happened. I asked him, are not not concerned about this? He looked at me and walked away. I was absolutely appauled.
> 
> Here is another issue. This particular dealer has over 50+ frogs on this table. At times there was a small 10 x 10 x 12 cage with about 15 adults frogs in there as well as a ton in deli cups.
> 
> Id be safe to bet that almost every single frog was infected but asymptomatic. Many of these frogs looked like they were packaged up days before and just left in the cups for transport. There was alot of other dead animals on this dealers table as well. It was the saddest thing I have ever seen and it makes me sick.


Did you take any photos?


----------



## Halter

jacobi said:


> Did you take any photos?



Unfortunately I did not. I left my phone in the car. I do not like carrying a lot on me at shows (i am so used to hamburg being so busy).
That thought did not even occur to me as well to take pictures. : /


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> I wanted to share something that I saw this weekend. I went to a reptile show and I saw a a vendor there, a rather common one. I would rather not say which one. When I got this this particular dealers table I saw that there was some whites tree frogs that had the exact same thing. Every single one had it. Two of them were already dead in the cup, another was on its last limb struggling to stay alive, covered in red open sores, bleeding. I pointed this out to this particular vendor and he took the cup, threw it away and acted like nothing happened. I asked him, are not not concerned about this? He looked at me and walked away. I was absolutely appauled.
> 
> Here is another issue. This particular dealer has over 50+ frogs on this table. At times there was a small 10 x 10 x 12 cage with about 15 adults frogs in there as well as a ton in deli cups.
> 
> Id be safe to bet that almost every single frog was infected but asymptomatic. Many of these frogs looked like they were packaged up days before and just left in the cups for transport. There was alot of other dead animals on this dealers table as well. It was the saddest thing I have ever seen and it makes me sick.
> 
> I really just wanted to share this....I think everyone that participated on this thread can figure out why I am sharing this.
> I just thought this was a appropriate story to share in this thread it apparently ravages many others dealers collections as well.


DEAD FROGS ON THE TABLE!?! WTF!! 
I at least recognized my errors and did the best I could the remedy the problems.

Well frogface and everyone else concerned. Here is the breeding chamber where the problem originated. Took me 2 days about about 8 hours total to do the full break down of this 80 gallon/ bleach/ rinse / bleach again / rinse/ dechlorinated rinse. Replaced the screening on top of the tank.. Bleached and threw out the OLD PVC PIPING from the rain chamber. Replaced with a BRAND NEW AQUAVAMP rain dome system. EVERYTHING INCLUDING THE RACK...disinfected... what a headache...but as everyone knows here it needed to be done. Still have a few more tanks to do...but this is where the problem originated. 

NOW QUESTION!!!!

Here is what i don't know what to do. I have all this CONTAMINATED SOIL approximately 18 gallons worth in a bin. Dry as a bone. What do I do with it? I do not want to contaminate the local outdoor frog community. SOmeone said bag it numerous times..but those bags will reopen and will eventually spread out...will it not? I am thinking just throw it into a firepit after a campfire or something...


----------



## CJ PELCH

Forgot to attach the photo


----------



## epiphytes etc.

I've burned hardscape stuff before, but I burned it to ash, so I'm not sure how it would work with soil.


----------



## Splash&Dash

if it's peat or coir based, it should smolder to ash if you throw it on a hot enough fire and space it out enough not to smother it. Not sure if that's the best approach here, though

PS couldn't you save the old piping and pump?


----------



## Dane

Halter said:


> I wanted to share something that I saw this weekend. I went to a reptile show and I saw a a vendor there, a rather common one. I would rather not say which one. When I got this this particular dealers table I saw that there was some whites tree frogs that had the exact same thing. Every single one had it. Two of them were already dead in the cup, another was on its last limb struggling to stay alive, covered in red open sores, bleeding. I pointed this out to this particular vendor and he took the cup, threw it away and acted like nothing happened. I asked him, are not not concerned about this? He looked at me and walked away. I was absolutely appauled.


What show was this? Most promoters have requirements regarding the health of the animals to be displayed at their event. You may be able to at least get this vendor put under heavier scrutiny if you let the organizers know.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Splash&Dash said:


> if it's peat or coir based, it should smolder to ash if you throw it on a hot enough fire and space it out enough not to smother it. Not sure if that's the best approach here, though
> 
> PS couldn't you save the old piping and pump?


It is ORGANIC SOIL...Composted. I used to use ABG mix but I couldn't get my Alocasia Polly to grow in it to save my life. 

Well.. I would have but it just looks sloppy in a tank and not very pleasing as the new system thats shown in the picture... I saw this new system at the San Diego Reptile Super show this past weekend. It sold me when they had an OPERATING model at the show. I was like they just outdid MISTKING products alone in this system. Let alone a longer warranty. Right before I left the show the owner Kevin came up to me and did some one on one on specifics of his system and how it could meet the needs for what I want since the system was originally designed for chameleons. I liked how his sales rep emphasized MADE IN USA! That as well sold me since Americas economy is down and I would love to support the cause alone. Well I like mistkings products.. I have his $350.00 automatic light adjusting LED Light bar. But this mist system far outdid his. Well the white bucket isn't pleasing either...but I need to add the water to it easily. Best place I could put it really.


----------



## Groundhog

Two dead-serious Q's, one for Halter, one for Lou or any other mod:

1) *Halter:* Because this is such a serious claim, is it okay to PM you to learn the identity of the vendor? (If this was at White Plains, I honestly have no idea who it could be--or maybe I do, but dread the answer...) 

2) *Mods:* In future, if someone was to take pics of this, would you permit the photographer to post these here? In other words: "I saw Fantastic Fred's Frogs vending frogs in this manner--snapped these few photos before Fred came at me with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch--came right here to DB to show the whole frog world what Fred is up to..."

I suspect that there may be libel issues involved (after all, this is a print medium), so would you guys allow it? Then again, how are we to know if the poster is on the level, or just dissing a competitor? (Not you, Halter.)

3) *Also*--this is for everyone--if the answer is no, then what good does this post actually do? Seriously, how is a kid and/or beginner supposed to know the difference?!? Should they not be warned? 




Halter said:


> I wanted to share something that I saw this weekend. I went to a reptile show and I saw a a vendor there, a rather common one. I would rather not say which one. When I got this this particular dealers table I saw that there was some whites tree frogs that had the exact same thing. Every single one had it. Two of them were already dead in the cup, another was on its last limb struggling to stay alive, covered in red open sores, bleeding. I pointed this out to this particular vendor and he took the cup, threw it away and acted like nothing happened. I asked him, are not not concerned about this? He looked at me and walked away. I was absolutely appauled.
> 
> Here is another issue. This particular dealer has over 50+ frogs on this table. At times there was a small 10 x 10 x 12 cage with about 15 adults frogs in there as well as a ton in deli cups.
> 
> Id be safe to bet that almost every single frog was infected but asymptomatic. Many of these frogs looked like they were packaged up days before and just left in the cups for transport. There was alot of other dead animals on this dealers table as well. It was the saddest thing I have ever seen and it makes me sick.
> 
> I really just wanted to share this....I think everyone that participated on this thread can figure out why I am sharing this.
> I just thought this was a appropriate story to share in this thread because it apparently ravages many others dealers collections as well.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Groundhog said:


> Two dead-serious Q's, one for Halter, one for Lou or any other mod:
> 
> 1) *Halter:* Because this is such a serious claim, is it okay to PM you to learn the identity of the vendor? (If this was at White Plains, I honestly have no idea who it could be--or maybe I do, but dread the answer...)
> 
> 2) *Mods:* In future, if someone was to take pics of this, would you permit the photographer to post these here? In other words: "I saw Fantastic Fred's Frogs vending frogs in this manner--snapped these few photos before Fred came at me with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch--came right here to DB to show the whole frog world what Fred is up to..."
> 
> I suspect that there may be libel issues involved (after all, this is a print medium), so would you guys allow it? Then again, how are we to know if the poster is on the level, or just dissing a competitor? (Not you, Halter.)
> 
> 3) *Also*--this is for everyone--if the answer is no, then what good does this post actually do? Seriously, how is a kid and/or beginner supposed to know the difference?!? Should they not be warned?


If the photos were taken of my frogs I sold...why would the mods not let it be posted for this vendor? I encourage it. It let me learn alot. So Yeah it may hurt the vendor....but wouldn't you think if he was on DB he would learn from it as well. I sure as hell did. Also in addition I saw VERY THIN FROG (next to death bed) photos taken at the Dart Frog Connection booth on here in the past if im not mistaken. So I have seen it on this forum.


----------



## oddlot

Groundhog said:


> Two dead-serious Q's, one for Halter, one for Lou or any other mod:
> 
> 1) *Halter:* Because this is such a serious claim, is it okay to PM you to learn the identity of the vendor? (If this was at White Plains, I honestly have no idea who it could be--or maybe I do, but dread the answer...)
> 
> 2) *Mods:* In future, if someone was to take pics of this, would you permit the photographer to post these here? In other words: "I saw Fantastic Fred's Frogs vending frogs in this manner--snapped these few photos before Fred came at me with a pair of pliers and a blowtorch--came right here to DB to show the whole frog world what Fred is up to..."
> 
> I suspect that there may be libel issues involved (after all, this is a print medium), so would you guys allow it? Then again, how are we to know if the poster is on the level, or just dissing a competitor? (Not you, Halter.)
> 
> 3) *Also*--this is for everyone--if the answer is no, then what good does this post actually do? Seriously, how is a kid and/or beginner supposed to know the difference?!? Should they not be warned?




George,Here's the problem.It would be considered vf so it would have to be in that section and pics are not allowed there.More importantly and unfortunately he is not a member here so vf isn't allowed because he can't defend himself.

The good thing is if a post like this is started at least you could inquire to the op about it which is still invaluable.If someone stated they had pics of this and would disclose them and the ID of the vendor,I'm sure the word would get out,which is better than no info at all.

I pm'd halter and can tell you it was infact at the White Plains Show.


----------



## Groundhog

Rather blunt, but in view of all that has transpired, you are entitled to this critique. 

CJ: By coming on here, you must accept that we are entitled to our honest opinions. What Raindart wrote was a criticism, not a personal attack. 
I, for one, am still not sold that you really comprehend why it is we are so upset, and yes, critical.



rain dart said:


> Um Yeah still *not* going to purchase frogs from you, sorry.  This is a huge mess and the ramifications could be much worse. And Maybe I am wrong but I would Never sell you one of my frogs. They are not breeding machines, they are living breathing animals, that deserve respect and some decency. You know, if you own frogs and are bless to have them breed...Good job, but personally if your just keeping the frogs to breed for you, I personally think your hearts in the wrong place. I am grateful for the people who breed the frogs I currently have. Your Signature is "save the frogs" frog mills are not the way I would save them. This is not an attack on you as a person, but a thought concerning your motives. What have you learned? That the frog community will torch you for bad practice....that you *now* need to prove your animals are clean? How about enjoying the frogs you have and valuing the happiness they bring you, not what they can do for your wallet.


----------



## frogface

CJ, where and how would you burn it? In a barrel? I don't know if it's a good idea. Will the contaminants be set adrift in the air? I don't know. Please don't do this until you have heard from someone who does know. The only way I have heard of, to discard used frog stuff, is to double bag it.


----------



## CJ PELCH

will the moderator that deleted the post that contradicted a certain post tell me why? I had a reasonable explanation to it with 100% proof. I thought we cant delete posts on this medium? You deleted about 6 posts. You didn't even tell me why.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> CJ, where and how would you burn it? In a barrel? I don't know if it's a good idea. Will the contaminants be set adrift in the air? I don't know. Please don't do this until you have heard from someone who does know. The only way I have heard of, to discard used frog stuff, is to double bag it.


Im waiting. No worries. I dont go camping until December anyway. It would have just sat in a bin until then. I would put it under hot ashes of the fire all night long...BURNING the soil.


----------



## Halter

Cj what about *all of your other* tanks? Are you taking these steps to disenfect them as well?

I saw on frog forum you were selling adult dumpys at the recent show...Were they from your house?


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Im waiting. No worries. I dont go camping until December anyway. It would have just sat in a bin until then. I would put it under hot ashes of the fire all night long...BURNING the soil.


This bin is inside your apartment, right? Not sitting outside?

eta: CJ I'm no expert but it sounds like a really bad idea to me to drag a bin full of soil, contaminated with chytrid, out on a camping trip. 

Do you have access to a landfill? What I do is double or triple bag, and then drive it to the landfill. It then goes into a large container that, once full, is driven out to the dump area and buried.


----------



## mydumname

How are pictures of animals at the show vendor feedback? Just cause they were dead animal pictures.....wouldn't live animal pics be vendor feedback too then? So no frog day pics...no show pics. 

The vendor feedback on this site is so worthless. Only positive feedback is permitted....and only negative feedback is allowed on certain people the rest gets covered up.

Oh but let's allow tons of positive posts on people for selling leaves or something stupid. People selling crappy animals have tons of positive feedback cause they also sell supplies. Who cares about that. PayPal protects dry goods. Only negative feedback should be allowed for dry goods. It's not hard to follow through on selling dry goods plus the buyer is protected. And positive and negative should be allowed for animals because this is where the quality should matter.


----------



## JPccusa

CJ PELCH said:


> will the moderator that deleted the post that contradicted a certain post tell me why? I had a reasonable explanation to it with 100% proof. I thought we cant delete posts on this medium? You deleted about 6 posts. You didn't even tell me why.


He doesn't have to tell you anything because of this clause of the User Agreement:


> All information placed at any time on DB.s servers or any other server utilized by DB is property of DB, and may be utilized, searched, viewed, edited, modified, displayed, deleted, etc. in any fashion.


In any event, have you even tried PMing him with your question(s)? That would be my first option.


----------



## mydumname

I don't know what was deleted but how much merit can anything hold on this site if things are being modified to a way certain people see fit? Especially if the readers can't tell something was modified?


----------



## CJ PELCH

JPccusa said:


> He doesn't have to tell you anything because of this clause of the User Agreement:
> 
> 
> In any event, have you even tried PMing him with your question(s)? That would be my first option.


I don't know who deleted all those posts. How do expect me to know if they don't tell me who or why they deleted all those posts. Seriously if you guys delete posts I make that have proof of something I'm not going to respond to people anymore.


----------



## Halter

But CJ could you please answer my question

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> But CJ could you please answer my question
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


Not until the moderators do some explaining. They are now editing this thread and deleting posts from different users as they see fit.


----------



## CJ PELCH

When I provide proof of something. I expect it to be heard.


----------



## JPccusa

Talking about deleting posts, which of your duplicate posts should I delete, CJ? #362 or #363?

I was not the one who removed the posts, but I can say that side conversations, highjacking posts, VF posts, inflammatory posts, etc. can be removed without notice.


----------



## JPccusa

CJ PELCH said:


> Not until the moderators do some explaining. They are now editing this thread and deleting posts from different users as they see fit.


Do not hide behind the mods actions. Like I said, we don't owe you an explanation. It suffices to say that our job is not to manipulate conversations. 

I strongly advise you to understand item M of the General Norms:


> Harassment of DB administrators, moderators, owner(s), or other members is strictly forbidden. In those cases where members have questions about moderation of a particular topic, they should take up their concerns privately with the appropriate moderator and/or dendroboard administrator/owner. Public posts questioning said action(s) are restricted.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Wait so now I'm harassing you??? Oh lord !! I think I have officially been turned on for your personal pleasure and not so much the hobby anymore. From here on out private me for questions and answers...this thread is now tarnished like my frogs were when I first started.
oh and im not hiding. What you guys diliberatly deleted or as you call moved to moderator board a post that was sufficient with evidence to back my case. I have no reason to post here anymore. Need I say this is also not the first time this has happened to me


----------



## jacobi

CJ, you mentioned earlier that you had a vet available to you. Have you spoken to him/her yet?


----------



## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> CJ, you mentioned earlier that you had a vet available to you. Have you spoken to him/her yet?


Yes we spoke recently...been playing phone tag...hes always busy recently.


----------



## Cfrog

CJ PELCH said:


> I have no reason to post here anymore.



I do not know why posts were deleted nor do I care at this point. You may want to keep screen shots of emails, pm's, and threads......So you are accurate in what you tell people. (or keeping your stories straight)


----------



## CJ PELCH

Well, after this recent incident of posts disapearing I would like to say its been nice getting to know all of you and sharing my experiences and learning about yours. I chose to stick my head out to be chopped off by a few select users to gain some more experience that I obviously didn't have. I would like to thank all members that privated me about this thread and addressed your point of view to encourage me to continue to respond in the thread to learn what to do when something very serious goes down with your frogs. I am thankfull many people got to learn from my mistake upfront and hope no one on this thread has to go through what I did to make it right. There is still alot of work to do and many people to address but I will do the best that I can to make sure things are done right. I look forward to many more experiences as we all learn from day to day about frogs...proper husbandry, animal disease testing and pet trade and sales. Hell even how to talk to people properly so they cant change your story around for the worst. I have come to a conclusion that this a witch hunt at its best and no matter what I do to prove and do right...I will always be wrong no matter what. The only thing I can say at this point is that it made me a better frogger with alot more experience and even gained some great connections privately along the way. Its been nice and I wish everyone the best here. I look forward to learning more from all of you and hope you can learn from me as well. Thanks all for you time and putting up with me and other members of db.

Sincerely,

Corey


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Wait so now I'm harassing you??? Oh lord !! I think I have officially been turned on for your personal pleasure and not so much the hobby anymore. From here on out private me for questions and answers...this thread is now tarnished like my frogs were when I first started.
> oh and im not hiding. What you guys diliberatly deleted or as you call moved to moderator board a post that was sufficient with evidence to back my case. I have no reason to post here anymore. Need I say this is also not the first time this has happened to me


Yes, that's exactly what you're doing. Item M is very clear. Openly questioning their decisions in the public forum constitutes harassment. You don't have to like it, but you did agree to those terms when you signed the user agreement.

Probably better that you libel people in private message rather than the open forum anyway. No doubt you'll have a better chance of avoiding scrutiny in private as well as those educated members of the forums who have issue with your husbandry and business practices won't be able to comment openly.

This thread is not tarnished, only your reputation and credibility due to your own actions and inactions. Again, nice try passing the buck, this time to the moderators. 

I saw what was deleted. You choose to blame another person as usual for some problems you created. I found your supposed explanation and proof implausible.

Anyone else see a trend here? What's the common factor in the people CJ takes advantage of? They're all women. I wonder if you would treat male clients with the same level of dishonesty and lack or respect. Meh, you probably would.


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> Not until the moderators do some explaining. They are now editing this thread and deleting posts from different users as they see fit.


First off I don't have to explain it to you but I will,The fact that you wholesaled animals and how much to each vendor and that you were ranting back and forth about when you officially became a business has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.If you want to argue out that crap do it in a pm or start your own thread if you feel that is important for some reason.Now you have your explanation now you can answer your questions that were actually asked. 



CJ PELCH said:


> When I provide proof of something. I expect it to be heard.


You didn't Provide proof of anything,and with your numerous lies on top of proven lies, what you say has to be taken with a grain of salt(or a pound of salt).Bottom line stay on topic or start your own thread if you want to rant about nonsense.You've been explained!


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> Well, after this recent incident of posts disapearing I would like to say its been nice getting to know all of you and sharing my experiences and learning about yours. I chose to stick my head out to be chopped off by a few select users to gain some more experience that I obviously didn't have. I would like to thank all members that privated me about this thread and addressed your point of view to encourage me to continue to respond in the thread to learn what to do when something very serious goes down with your frogs. I am thankfull many people got to learn from my mistake upfront and hope no one on this thread has to go through what I did to make it right. There is still alot of work to do and many people to address but I will do the best that I can to make sure things are done right. I look forward to many more experiences as we all learn from day to day about frogs...proper husbandry, animal disease testing and pet trade and sales. Hell even how to talk to people properly so they cant change your story around for the worst. I have come to a conclusion that this a witch hunt at its best and no matter what I do to prove and do right...I will always be wrong no matter what. The only thing I can say at this point is that it made me a better frogger with alot more experience and even gained some great connections privately along the way. Its been nice and I wish everyone the best here. I look forward to learning more from all of you and hope you can learn from me as well. Thanks all for you time and putting up with me and other members of db.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Corey


I think we have all learned a lot from you(not necessarily good) but many will learn from this and for that we thank you!


----------



## CJ PELCH

You know lou. I did prove alot of things. I proved my frogs were sick with chytrid, I I proved I tested and cleaned tanks and have more to do. I also stated that red eye tree frog girl bought from numberous vendors at that show and you guys blamed me of accusing her of something she didnt do. Why dont you guys reread her original post in paragraph one. She openly stated she bought numberous frogs from other vendors. Im tired of all your shit and im done posting. If you respect the hobby you would teach me not step on my toes. Im sorry. Its hiw I feel and others as well. I wish you could read my private messages lou....you would be in awe.


----------



## oddlot

mydumname said:


> How are pictures of animals at the show vendor feedback? Just cause they were dead animal pictures.....wouldn't live animal pics be vendor feedback too then? So no frog day pics...no show pics.
> 
> The vendor feedback on this site is so worthless. Only positive feedback is permitted....and only negative feedback is allowed on certain people the rest gets covered up.
> 
> Oh but let's allow tons of positive posts on people for selling leaves or something stupid. People selling crappy animals have tons of positive feedback cause they also sell supplies. Who cares about that. PayPal protects dry goods. Only negative feedback should be allowed for dry goods. It's not hard to follow through on selling dry goods plus the buyer is protected. And positive and negative should be allowed for animals because this is where the quality should matter.


Greg,Unfortunately,I don't make the rules.If it were up to me I'd rather have this info out there,which is why I do say there is value to this as people who are interested would go the pm route.

Now if someone posted a thread about a particular show and had after show pics of all the vendors (like Frogday) and didn't zero out any one vendor, whether there were sick or dead animals or not, that may be a different scenario.

And you may not care about the transactions of dry goods,but others do and it shows the way sales and communications are handled.Chances are if you had a bad experience with someone and they couldn't get the dry goods right,you probably wouldn't want to get frogs from them,nor would others, which would learn from the feedback given.There has been a vendor that has been getting a slough of neg feedbacks recently so I have to disagree with that comment too.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> You know lou. I did prove alot of things. I proved my frogs were sick with chytrid, I I proved I tested and cleaned tanks and have more to do. I also stated that red eye tree frog girl bought from numberous vendors at that show and you guys blamed me of accusing her of something she didnt do. Why dont you guys reread her original post in paragraph one. She openly stated she bought numberous frogs from other vendors. Im tired of all your shit and im done posting. If you respect the hobby you would teach me not step on my toes. Im sorry. Its hiw I feel and others as well. I wish you could read my private messages lou....you would be in awe.


Still blaming her, pathetic. What's more plausible? Your sick frogs got the other frogs sick or that she picked something up from the other vendors? All your frogs were sick and contaminated with chytrid, nothing to be trifled with. It's causing a worldwide extinction! You still fail to grasp the gravity of what your responsible for. We still don't know how far down the rabbit hole this goes and probably never will. Thankfully you've become the poster child for what NOT to do.

We absolutely do respect the hobby and were very much concerned about the level of damage you may have caused. You vended at shows, who knows who else you sold sick frogs to that don't read these forums and/or are as ignorant about the ramifications as you are.

Oh, btw, he can...


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Still blaming her, pathetic. What's more plausible? Your sick frogs got the other frogs sick or that she picked something up from the other vendors? All your frogs were sick and contaminated with chytrid, nothing to be trifled with. It's causing a worldwide extinction! You still fail to grasp the gravity of what your responsible for. We still don't know how far down the rabbit hole this goes and probably never will. Thankfully you've become the poster child for what NOT to do.
> 
> We absolutely do respect the hobby and were very much concerned about the level of damage you may have caused. You vended at shows, who knows who else you sold sick frogs to that don't read these forums and/or are as ignorant about the ramifications as you are.
> 
> Oh, btw, he can...


I guess you also didn't see that she wrote in her thread one that her frogs were already sick as well. Enough is enough


----------



## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> I guess you also didn't see that she wrote in her thread one that her frogs were already sick as well. Enough is enough


just keep digging, just keep digging, just keep digging.

In another note, CJ can you please answer if those dumpys you sold at the show this weekend were from *your facility*?


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> just keep digging, just keep digging, just keep digging.
> 
> In another note, CJ can you please answer if those dumpys you sold at the show this weekend were from *your facility*?


Yes they were. Imagine that.


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> You know lou. I did prove alot of things. I proved my frogs were sick with chytrid, I I proved I tested and cleaned tanks and have more to do. I also stated that red eye tree frog girl bought from numberous vendors at that show and you guys blamed me of accusing her of something she didnt do. Why dont you guys reread her original post in paragraph one. She openly stated she bought numberous frogs from other vendors. Im tired of all your shit and im done posting. If you respect the hobby you would teach me not step on my toes. Im sorry. Its hiw I feel and others as well. I wish you could read my private messages lou....you would be in awe.



Yes you proved YOU had chytrid and to your own admission lost 80% of your frogs to it(and sold the other 20% apparently ) you also proved you had a tank.There is no proof you cleaned it,it could be a different tank for all we know.She admitted buying 1 frog from 1 other vendor,not as you say "numberous" vendors so realistically You proved and admitted chytrid on your end,so what are you saying?Your sick dieying frogs didn't cause her the problems but the one frog she bought from the one vendor did,next you'll accuse her of getting your frogs sick.She sent me a lot of what you texted and trust me you don't look like good in what you said to her.No one ever stopped you from sending copies of pm's to us either.


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> Yes you proved YOU had chytrid and to your own admission lost 80% of your frogs to it(and sold the other 20% apparently ) you also proved you had a tank.There is no proof you cleaned it,it could be a different tank for all we know.She admitted buying 1 frog from 1 other vendor,not as you say "numberous" vendors so realistically You proved and admitted chytrid on your end,so what are you saying?Your sick dieying frogs didn't cause her the problems but the one frog she bought from the one vendor did,next you'll accuse her of getting your frogs sick.She sent me a lot of what you texted and trust me you don't look like good in what you said to her.No one ever stopped you from sending copies of pm's to us either.


I guess you didn't see the part later on that she bought some of Craigslistjust a couple weeks before my show


----------



## oddlot

Again ,so what are you saying?that your chytrid ridden frogs didn't cause it but her frogs did,really!?!?!?!?


----------



## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> I guess you didn't see the part later on that she bought some of Craigslistjust a couple weeks before my show


I cant believe you took whites from your contaminated facility and sold them at a show. Blows my freakin mind.

...you just like to keep on digging


----------



## frogface

CJ you didn't just say that RETFgirl bought from other vendors. You said she bought a WC RETF from another vendor. She did tell us that she got one frog from another vendor. As far as I know, she did not note that the other frog was WC. Has it been substantiated?

Ok now I'm really confused. She bought frogs from Craig's List? Did these frogs give your frogs chytrid?


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> Yes they were. Imagine that.


How can you with a clean conscience sell frogs from your disease ridden facility again knowing you have an issue  I thought you said you learned something from us!!!! You really don't understand the ramifications do you?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> I guess you didn't see the part later on that she bought some of Craigslistjust a couple weeks before my show


Still blaming her. 

*YOU SOLD HER FROGS WITH CYTRID!!!!!!!*

And you're still blaming everyone but yourself. You'll blame the customer, the mods, other people for twisting your words, hell you'll even try to question the credibility of this thread now.

What a joke.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> I guess you didn't see the part later on that she bought some of Craigslistjust a couple weeks before my show


So what if she did? Quit blaming her. You're the one responsible for this mess, not her.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Yes they were. Imagine that.


This really sums it up. You have present, in your facility, the most devastating amphibian disease ever recorded, and yet, you're still selling frogs out of that facility to unsuspecting buyers. This is abhorrent, irresponsible and unforgivable. 

You have No Business selling frogs.

And you have the *AUDACITY* to use SAVE THE FROGS as you signature.


----------



## frogface

From RETFgirl's first post:



> I bought 5 that day. 4 from him and 1 from another breeder.


----------



## frogface

ZookeeperDoug said:


> This really sums it up. You have present, in your facility, the most devastating amphibian disease ever recorded, and yet, you're still selling frogs out of that facility to unsuspecting buyers. This is abhorrent, irresponsible and unforgivable.
> 
> You have No Business selling frogs.
> 
> And you have the *AUDACITY* to use SAVE THE FROGS as you signature.


Corey I don't understand. Is it possible that you don't know how serious this is? Really, this isn't about your frogs or RETFgirl's frogs or who did what first or where. This is about a deadly contagious amphibian disease that can wipe out populations. I don't mean the populations in our houses, I mean all those lovely amphibians outside in the wild. Gone. Decimated because of our carelessness. 

Do you know what became of the frogs that you sold to other people when they died? What did those people do with their tanks and substrates? Has it all been dumped out behind their houses where the fungus is now spreading around?

Corey this is serious!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Halter said:


> I cant believe you took whites from your contaminated facility and sold them at a show. Blows my freakin mind.
> 
> ...you just like to keep on digging


Halter, what show was this? At this point I think we need to be on the lookout for other shows where he might be vending so that we can inform the show organizers about this thread.

I hate to say it, but we may have to seek the assistance of some agency; I really don't know who would deal with this. We're dealing with someone who has FREAKING CYTRID and doesn't have a clue what to do about it. I mean he is talking about dragging contaminated soil out on a camping trip. It seems ludicrous but at this point I think the potential ramifications have to be properly dealt with.


----------



## frogface

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Halter, what show was this? At this point I think we need to be on the lookout for other shows where he might be vending so that we can inform the show organizers about this thread.
> 
> I hate to say it, but we may have to seek the assistance of some agency; I really don't know who would deal with this. We're dealing with someone who has FREAKING CYTRID and doesn't have a clue what to do about it. I mean he is talking about dragging contaminated soil out on a camping trip. It seems ludicrous but at this point I think the potential ramifications have to be properly dealt with.


I'm hoping that some of his new contacts are actually undercover fish and wildlife officers.


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Halter, what show was this? At this point I think we need to be on the lookout for other shows where he might be vending so that we can inform the show organizers about this thread.
> 
> I hate to say it, but we may have to seek the assistance of some agency; I really don't know who would deal with this. We're dealing with someone who has FREAKING CYTRID and doesn't have a clue what to do about it. I mean he is talking about dragging contaminated soil out on a camping trip. It seems ludicrous but at this point I think the potential ramifications have to be properly dealt with.


You guys are ok. I never sold whites at the show. I said that because im extreemly pissed at all of you. You can ask tommy from the scads community as he was at the show.


----------



## oddlot

Again with the Lies.I don't believe you at all!You wonder why people don't take what you say as the truth!


----------



## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> You guys are ok. I never sold whites at the show. I said that because im extreemly pissed at all of you.


This:

For Sale: San diego reptile super show

you also sold firebelly toads...Just going to assume YOUR facility.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Lou that was all directed at you. Every bit of it.


----------



## mrzoggs

CJ PELCH said:


> You guys are ok. I never sold whites at the show. I said that because im extreemly pissed at all of you. You can ask tommy from the scads community as he was at the show.




If you are pissed, IMAGINE HOW WE FEEL


----------



## Halter

mrzoggs said:


> If you are pissed, IMAGINE HOW WE FEEL


Exactly this.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogface said:


> I'm hoping that some of his new contacts are actually undercover fish and wildlife officers.


I've very cautious about this. If we contact Fish and Wildlife and create a scare, the ramifications to the hobby are potentially devastating. Were already under fire, the last thing we really need is more scrutiny. You throw CJ on this fire, essentially handing them the poster boy for why they need the ability to regulate interest ate trade in amphibians, and we could very well screw the pooch.

At the same time, I think we have a responsibility to act. Can we really afford to take the risk knowing what we know now about CJ and his practices? 

I hope at the very least, moderators a considering wether or not he should be allowed to post animals for sale. I DONT think he should be banned. We need to be able to stay in contact with him and make sure this gets resolved.


----------



## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> You guys are ok. I never sold whites at the show. I said that because im extreemly pissed at all of you. You can ask tommy from the scads community as he was at the show.


oh man, this thread would be hilarious if it just concerned a different subject matter


----------



## frogface

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I've very cautious about this. If we contact Fish and Wildlife and create a scare, the ramifications to the hobby are potentially devastating. Were already under fire, the last thing we really need is more scrutiny. You throw CJ on this fire, essentially handing them the poster boy for why they need the ability to regulate interest ate trade in amphibians, and we could very well screw the pooch.
> 
> At the same time, I think we have a responsibility to act. Can we really afford to take the risk knowing what we know now about CJ and his practices?
> 
> I hope at the very least, moderators a considering wether or not he should be allowed to post animals for sale. I DONT think he should be banned. We need to be able to stay in contact with him and make sure this gets resolved.


Doug I would rather keep my beautiful little frogs in my house. However, if it came to it, I would give up my hobby to protect the amphibians in the wild.


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> Doug I would rather keep my beautiful little frogs in my house. However, if it came to it, I would give up my hobby to protect the amphibians in the wild.


it's not even a question for me. I would rather get an agency involved than letting this guy carry on so recklessly. I mean, this thread is ridiculous.


----------



## mrzoggs

frogface said:


> Doug I would rather keep my beautiful little frogs in my house. However, if it came to it, I would give up my hobby to protect the amphibians in the wild.



This is EXACTLY what I was thinking before I read your post. Maybe they would be right by controlling the trade. Especially with people like this selling in the hobby. I can find a new hobby, but I cannot replace extinct amphibians.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> You guys are ok. I never sold whites at the show. I said that because im extreemly pissed at all of you. You can ask tommy from the scads community as he was at the show.


Who is Tommy and why should I trust him?


----------



## Cfrog

Really now your going to drag Tommy into this....oh wait you already did it once.

Plz fight your own battles. This is a great illustration of why people don't believe what you say. I don't care how mad you are, learn to control yourself and stop lying!!!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogface said:


> Doug I would rather keep my beautiful little frogs in my house. However, if it came to it, I would give up my hobby to protect the amphibians in the wild.


I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with you 100%.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> it's not even a question for me. I would rather get an agency involved than letting this guy carry on so recklessly. I mean, this thread is ridiculous.



I completely agree. Please don't take my previous statements to mean I don't think we should act. I was trying to point out that because of CJ, if and when someone acts on this, there may be ramifications to the hobby. And we'll have him to blame for it. 

I sincerely hope it doesn't come to that.


----------



## Cfrog

Never was it personal CJ, I just don't like when people are lied to and are jerked around.


----------



## frogface

rain dart said:


> Never was it personal CJ, I just don't like when people are lied to and are jerked around.


Oh! That's a horse! I thought it was a piano


----------



## CJ PELCH

Ill do all the work for you guys and contact them.myself and contact my local congressman and discuss my concerns of why the trade should be shut down. At this point I just dont care....ill take it with a pound of salt.


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Ill do all the work for you guys and contact them.myself and contact my local congressman and discuss my concerns of why the trade should be shut down. At this point I just dont care....ill take it with a pound of salt.


Be sure to let us know how that goes. Especially the part where you tell them how you continued to sell frogs from a collection that you knew to be contaminated with chytrid.


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> Oh! That's a horse! I thought it was a piano


it's actually a piano playing horse. His name is fred


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> Be sure to let us know how that goes.


Dont worry. Id rather put my money in conservation than buying more frogs....im not joking about this anymore.


----------



## Splash&Dash

CJ PELCH said:


> Ill do all the work for you guys and contact them.myself and contact my local congressman and discuss my concerns of why the trade should be shut down. At this point I just dont care....ill take it with a pound of salt.


this is like the second or third time you felt the need to threaten the hobby with your general ineptitude. I just don't understand how a person reaches that point: "don't make me show people what an ass-hat I am"


----------



## mrzoggs

CJ PELCH said:


> and contact my local congressman and discuss my concerns of why the trade should be shut down.



I don't think the trade should be shut down, I think you should stop selling frogs that could possibly be contaminated with a disease.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Ill do all the work for you guys and contact them.myself and contact my local congressman and discuss my concerns of why the trade should be shut down. At this point I just dont care....ill take it with a pound of salt.


It's pathetic that you think this is a joke.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Thats exactly what thought when I got mine from pet kingdom. Why did they sell me sick frogs which me being neglegent to the fact to sell my red eyes.


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Thats exactly what thought when I got mine from pet kingdom. Why did they sell me sick frogs which me being neglegent to the fact to sell my red eyes.


Well that sucks but it's why we all have to be diligent. They can be sick regardless of where they come from. It's not just you, CJ. Many of us have been negligent. You were one of the unlucky ones. The people who then went on to buy frogs from you should have been diligent. They weren't and were also unlucky. 

We all need to test the animals we get and we don't all do that. I think many of us have learned a lot from this thread. 

What we need to do now is to make sure it's cleaned up and handled correctly and to keep educating.


----------



## oddlot

So now it's pet kingdoms fault.I'm glad that's all cleared up now.


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> So now it's pet kingdoms fault.I'm glad that's all cleared up now.


Hey leader of the witch hunt...BURN ME AT THE STAKE!!!


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> It's pathetic that you think this is a joke.


Its pathetic that you THINK I am joking at this point...you guys should have left me at peace and educate me instead. 
I have gained enough knoledge to treat and keep. But thats ok...you know I dont know what im talking about. Im always wrong.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> Well that sucks but it's why we all have to be diligent. They can be sick regardless of where they come from. It's not just you, CJ. Many of us have been negligent. You were one of the unlucky ones. The people who then went on to buy frogs from you should have been diligent. They weren't and were also unlucky.
> 
> We all need to test the animals we get and we don't all do that. I think many of us have learned a lot from this thread.
> 
> What we need to do now is to make sure it's cleaned up and handled correctly and to keep educating.


Then all you guys can learn from me expressing my concerns of why I NOW want the hobby shut down. Education will only go so far....In this case it was to late... Just think the real people out for money and who take wildcaught frogs for the business...petco...petsmart...petkingdom... I can go on and on.... Ill take all the heat on it... I dont care anymore...FINE MY BUTT! Make it illegal I dont care ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!! Look ...im one of the unlucky ones...but you know what...YOU KNOW it will continue to happen...you can educate in every school and every forum...this incident will always happen...There will always be someone still doing wrong. SO lets fix the problem...suck up all our pride...and close the hobby down


----------



## mrzoggs

CJ PELCH said:


> Then all you guys can learn from me expressing my concerns of why I NOW want the hobby shut down. Education will only go so far....In this case it was to late... Just think the real people out for money and who take wildcaught frogs for the business...petco...petsmart...petkingdom... I can go on and on.... Ill take all the heat on it... I dont care anymore...FINE MY BUTT! Make it illegal I dont care ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!!


Find a new hobby, don't ruin ours.


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Then all you guys can learn from me expressing my concerns of why I NOW want the hobby shut down. Education will only go so far....In this case it was to late...


You're going to get the hobby shut down? Others have been trying. Maybe you'll be the one to succeed. What will be your argument? That the hobby should be shut down because you didn't test your WC tree frogs for chytrid? And once enough of them had died you got them tested. Then, knowing you had chytrid in your collection you continued to sell frogs? 

I'm not sure how well that will go over.


----------



## CJ PELCH

mrzoggs said:


> find a new hobby, don't ruin ours.


new hobby: Conserving wildlife front and center. Park ranger....fining people from removing anything from natures promised land... Heck ...ill take a paycut to do it... I think its a more respectable job. No...ill just make an effort frogface.

Whats my argument...well thats self explanatory... Ill refer them to this thread...and say...well this can happen to anyone who loves frogs so much but just didn't know the repercussions. It can happen to anyone.


----------



## mrzoggs

CJ PELCH said:


> new hobby: Conserving wildlife front and center. Park ranger....fining people from removing anything from natures promised land... Heck ...ill take a paycut to do it... I think its a more respectable job. No...ill just make an effort frogface.


Maybe you should research that hobby before diving in head first and attempting to knowingly ruin that one to.


----------



## frogface

CJ we aren't your enemy. We all just want this to work out ok. Don't sell anymore frogs until you've finished decontaminating your apartment. Dispose of the waste responsibly. Quarantine your remaining frogs. Regroup. Take it from there. 

It's not personal. It's not against you. All we care about here is the frogs.


----------



## scoy

Are you drunk? I remember you blameing the ruby eye egg thing on your drinking so I'm wondering if you might have a problem. If not I just cant imagine why you say some things.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> CJ we aren't your enemy. We all just want this to work out ok. Don't sell anymore frogs until you've finished decontaminating your apartment. Dispose of the waste responsibly. Quarantine your remaining frogs. Regroup. Take it from there.
> 
> It's not personal. It's not against you. All we care about here is the frogs.



No frog face YOU are not...there are many here that are. ITS ALL AGAINST ME...

tell you what.... If any SCAD members or anyone in san diegocome over to my house help me sanitize the other rack. I will invite you over open doors offer you food and even some beer and wine. HELP ME GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION. Help me clean the remaining tanks. Help me fund all of these tests for the remaining 30 some odd frogs i have at my house. Or i will start making efforts to shut the hobby down.... I know EXACTLY how bad it is... I know exactly what is going on now. BUT ITS TO MUCH FOR ME TO HANDLE ON MY OWN..... ON TOP OF GETTING ATTACKED... for real...I NEED HELP!!! DO ANY OF YOU KNOW HOW MUCH STRESS IM UNDER!!! Maybe a tiny bit..but you don't!


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> No frog face YOU are not...there are many here that are. ITS ALL AGAINST ME...
> 
> tell you what.... If any SCAD members or anyone in san diegocome over to my house help me sanitize the other rack. I will invite you over open doors offer you food and even some beer and wine. HELP ME GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION. Help me clean the remaining tanks. Help me fund all of these tests for the remaining 30 some odd frogs i have at my house. Or i will start making efforts to shut the hobby down.... I know EXACTLY how bad it is... I know exactly what is going on now. BUT ITS TO MUCH FOR ME TO HANDLE ON MY OWN..... ON TOP OF GETTING ATTACKED... for real...I NEED HELP!!!


I think this is an excellent idea! SCADS help him clean up. Get this done!

eta: If this was happening in my area, I'd be right over there with bleach and gloves and trash bags. Seriously people. It's all fine and dandy for us to tell him what he's done wrong and how he should do things right. Let's stop being really noisy armchair whatevers and help him. It's not about him, it's about all of us.


----------



## CJ PELCH

scoy said:


> Are you drunk? I remember you blameing the ruby eye egg thing on your drinking so I'm wondering if you might have a problem. If not I just cant imagine why you say some things.


Ughh now that you bring it up...id love a drink...


----------



## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> No frog face YOU are not...there are many here that are. ITS ALL AGAINST ME...
> 
> tell you what.... If any SCAD members or anyone in san diegocome over to my house help me sanitize the other rack. I will invite you over open doors offer you food and even some beer and wine. HELP ME GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION. Help me clean the remaining tanks. Help me fund all of these tests for the remaining 30 some odd frogs i have at my house. Or i will start making efforts to shut the hobby down.... I know EXACTLY how bad it is... I know exactly what is going on now. BUT ITS TO MUCH FOR ME TO HANDLE ON MY OWN..... ON TOP OF GETTING ATTACKED... for real...I NEED HELP!!!


Stop attempting to get pity.

You knowingly and willingly sold infected frogs.

ZooKeeperDoug Said it perfectly:



ZookeeperDoug said:


> This really sums it up. You have present, in your facility, the most devastating amphibian disease ever recorded, and yet, you're still selling frogs out of that facility to unsuspecting buyers. This is abhorrent, irresponsible and unforgivable.
> 
> You have No Business selling frogs.
> 
> And you have the *AUDACITY* to use SAVE THE FROGS as you signature.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Its pathetic that you THINK I am joking at this point...you guys should have left me at peace and educate me instead.
> I have gained enough knoledge to treat and keep. But thats ok...you know I dont know what im talking about. Im always wrong.


And now you're trying to blame us for pushing you to far. Man you are some piece of work.

If you're sincere in your threats, you won't succeed. I think you're just throwing a forum tantrum like a petulant child.

Do us all a favor, go away and grow up.


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> And now you're trying to blame us for pushing you to far. Man you are some piece of work.
> 
> If you're sincere in your threats, you won't succeed. I think you're just throwing a forum tantrum like a petulant child.
> 
> Do us all a favor, go away and grow up.


and this is what gets me to explode... i need to say no more. Anyone willing to help me I will give credit where its due.


----------



## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> and this is what gets me to explode... i need to say no more. Anyone willing to help me I will give credit where its due.


We have been helping you.
Throughout this thread. We have given you advice, what to do, and how to handle the situation.

You do the exact opposite.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> I think this is an excellent idea! SCADS help him clean up. Get this done!
> 
> eta: If this was happening in my area, I'd be right over there with bleach and gloves and trash bags. Seriously people. It's all fine and dandy for us to tell him what he's done wrong and how he should do things right. Let's stop being really noisy armchair whatevers and help him. It's not about him, it's about all of us.


Thanks frog face...maybe it took a few beatings to get it out of me to realize what I really needed.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> We have been helping you.
> Throughout this thread. We have given you advice, what to do, and how to handle the situation.
> 
> You do the exact opposite.


With all due respect...be quiet.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Im getting off this. I have more tanks to clean.....sigh... I have think there is an addiction to this forum. ICK


----------



## oddlot

CJ PELCH said:


> No frog face YOU are not...there are many here that are. ITS ALL AGAINST ME...
> 
> tell you what.... If any SCAD members or anyone in san diegocome over to my house help me sanitize the other rack. I will invite you over open doors offer you food and even some beer and wine. HELP ME GET OUT OF THIS SITUATION. Help me clean the remaining tanks. Help me fund all of these tests for the remaining 30 some odd frogs i have at my house. Or i will start making efforts to shut the hobby down.... I know EXACTLY how bad it is... I know exactly what is going on now. BUT ITS TO MUCH FOR ME TO HANDLE ON MY OWN..... ON TOP OF GETTING ATTACKED... for real...I NEED HELP!!! DO ANY OF YOU KNOW HOW MUCH STRESS IM UNDER!!! Maybe a tiny bit..but you don't!


This is where I have a problem with you.A normal person that actually cared would have asked for help which would've helped you save face(and probably gotten you some help),instead you demand it or you will try and ruin it (unsuccessfully) for everyone else.


----------



## frogface

Look y'all, he's going to keep selling frogs. It's in everyone's best interest if the chytrid is handled asap. Let's stop bitching and concentrate on either talking him through it or getting our hands dirty and pitching in.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> and this is what gets me to explode... i need to say no more. Anyone willing to help me I will give credit where its due.


Yep, it's my fault you're an unstable lunatic who feels the solution to the problem is to threaten the community in an ultimatum if they won't help you.

This is your problem, it isn't our responsibility to fund the cleanup of your mistake.

That being said, for the sake of the environment and ultimately solving the problem, I'm not beyond advocating for you getting some help, just not monetarily. I'd love to see some people volunteer to show up and help clean you up and get you out of the hobby for good. 

If you do though for the love of god, glove up and clean up after you're done, everyone coming and going should be stepping in a footpath full of bleach water, and trying to decontaminate themselves once done.


----------



## CJ PELCH

oddlot said:


> This is where I have a problem with you.A normal person that actually cared would have asked for help which would've helped you save face(and probably gotten you some help),instead you demand it or you will try and ruin it (unsuccessfully) for everyone else.


Thank you for addressing your concern and continue to attack.


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yep, it's my fault you're an unstable lunatic who feels the solution to the problem is to threaten the community in an ultimatum if they won't help you.
> 
> This is your problem, it isn't our responsibility to fund the cleanup of your mistake.
> 
> That being said, for the sake of the environment and ultimately solving the problem, I'm not beyond advocating for you getting some help, just not monetarily. I'd love to see some people volunteer to show up and help clean you up and get you out of the hobby for good.
> 
> If you do though for the love of god, glove up and clean up after you're done, everyone coming and going should be stepping in a footpath full of bleach water, and trying to decontaminate themselves once done.


Thanks for your concern. Im a lunatic now apparently. Dont concider it a threat. Consider it a desperate cry for help to get rid of this disease.


----------



## Halter

CJ i saw that you wrote shut up.

Taking alot to contain my choice in language here.

Listen to me, you are spreading an infectious disease that can literally RUIN our hobby. You sell infected frogs at shows even after we told you what can happen. 

I can go on and on and on man.
BUt we have offered help. We offered advice.

Hell every time we would ask a question you would just dance around it or LIE--and from that you get the responses that you do. YOu bring them on yourself.

To get this situation fixed- we told you. This was covered many pages ago...DId you listen? NO--instead like i said before you do the exact opposite. 
BTW-I hope members in Frog forum see this thread-- so they know to stay the hell away from you too


----------



## CJ PELCH

Getting back to the problem at hand. I still have this green bin full of soil and have many other tanks to clean and 2 more racks. I still need a good solution on what to donwith this soil. As long as it remains in my house my house will be contaminated and the rest of the colony will remain at risk.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Thank you for addressing your concern and continue to attack.


You act like you don't deserve the criticism. I have no doubt you'll look back and realize what a fool you're being. It sad because it all could have been avoided.

I speak from experience. I can see parallels in what you're doing now in something I did once. I know someday you'll look back and realize what an important learning experience it is. You'll take away from this that it is never a good idea to burn bridges and that in life you have to accept personal responsibility for your actions. When you do that, people are quicker to forgive than you think.

As my old boss told me, sometimes you just have to roll over and piss on yourself.


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> You act like you don't deserve the criticism. I have no doubt you'll look back and realize what a fool you're being. It sad because it all could have been avoided.
> 
> I speak from experience. I can see parallels in what you're doing now in something I did once. I know someday you'll look back and realize what an important learning experience it is. You'll take away from this that it is never a good idea to burn bridges and that in life you have to accept personal responsibility for your actions. When you do that, people are quicker to forgive than you think.
> 
> As my old boss told me, sometimes you just have to roll over and piss on yourself.



Can we focus on the issue at hand and not the issue of how i react to things.... or will react to things. I think the disease and the hobby would be more important than how I react to what you or anyone else says.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> CJ i saw that you wrote shut up.
> 
> Taking alot to contain my choice in language here.
> 
> Listen to me, you are spreading an infectious disease that can literally RUIN our hobby. You sell infected frogs at shows even after we told you what can happen.
> 
> I can go on and on and on man.
> BUt we have offered help. We offered advice.
> 
> Hell every time we would ask a question you would just dance around it or LIE--and from that you get the responses that you do. YOu bring them on yourself.
> 
> To get this situation fixed- we told you. This was covered many pages ago...DId you listen? NO--instead like i said before you do the exact opposite.
> BTW-I hope members in Frog forum see this thread-- so they know to stay the hell away from you too


Hey hey... I started cleaning and didnt dispose anything outside... Im not selling anymore...hell the san diego show put me under. I made $79.00 at that show. With a $350.00 booth.. I just want an end to this just as much as you do.


----------



## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> Then stop buying frogs!


Havnt bought a single frog since July. Soooooooooo


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Can we focus on the issue at hand and not the issue of how i react to things.... or will react to things. I think the disease and the hobby would be more important than how I react to what you or anyone else says.


Absolutely. 

Retract your threat to cause damage to the hobby and apologize. Stop lying and express a sincere commitment to finding a solution.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Hey hey... I started cleaning and didnt dispose anything outside... Im not selling anymore...hell the san diego show put me under. I made $79.00 at that show. With a $350.00 booth.. I just want an end to this just as much as you do.


Was anything you sold at this show or brought to the show potentially or certainly contaminated?

First step if so, needs to be damage control. If you can, contact those clients and direct them here so we can help them.

Do you understand now why vending was a poor decision while you're dealing with this?


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Retract your threat to cause damage to the hobby and apologize. Stop lying and express a sincere commitment to finding a solution.


Thats not a threat...its a promise... If i cant contain this problem...and prevent it from happening to others...I will sell everything i have...tanks..supplies...frogs that i KNOW are disease free. Treat the best I can with the others and just call it quits and start working on getting in touch with people and motions to shut the hobby down. I said I wasnt joking.


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> Getting back to the problem at hand. I still have this green bin full of soil and have many other tanks to clean and 2 more racks. I still need a good solution on what to donwith this soil. As long as it remains in my house my house will be contaminated and the rest of the colony will remain at risk.


CJ put that dirt into trash bags. Double or triple bag it. Divide it up so you can carry it easily. Those bags then need go get to the landfill. Can you take them yourself? Do you have a dumpster at your apt? Maybe carefully place them in there. 

I would double bag it and then wipe down the outer bag with bleach, then, put it into another bag. Do the same with the supplies


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Was anything you sold at this show or brought to the show potentially or certainly contaminated?
> 
> First step if so, needs to be damage control. If you can, contact those clients and direct them here so we can help them.
> 
> Do you understand now why vending was a poor decision while you're dealing with this?



No nothing was contaminated at the show...I wouldn't make the same mistake twice...if you believe me or not. Why would I put myself through a SECOND headache. Sure if the product was mine..yes...but as I stated...none of the frogs were mine.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Getting back to the problem at hand. I still have this green bin full of soil and have many other tanks to clean and 2 more racks. I still need a good solution on what to donwith this soil. As long as it remains in my house my house will be contaminated and the rest of the colony will remain at risk.


The soil needs to be incinerated. You will need to find a trash incinerator nearby or someplace that incinerates medical waste. The bin should be cleaned out, inside in a shower stall or bathtub, with the drain plugged. It should be bleached and the remaining water in the tub stall should have bleach added, wait an hr at least then drain and disinfect all surfaces and items.


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> CJ put that dirt into trash bags. Double or triple bag it. Divide it up so you can carry it easily. Those bags then need go get to the landfill. Can you take them yourself? Do you have a dumpster at your apt? Maybe carefully place them in there.
> 
> I would double bag it and then wipe down the outer bag with bleach, then, put it into another bag. Do the same with the supplies



I heard from 2 people privately with WILL NOT contain the disease. This is also speaking from people who HAD chytrid in the past or something similar.


----------



## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> The soil needs to be incinerated. You will need to find a trash incinerator nearby or someplace that incinerates medical waste. The bin should be cleaned out, inside in a shower stall or bathtub, with the drain plugged. It should be bleached and the remaining water in the tub stall should have bleach added, wait an hr at least then drain and disinfect all surfaces and items.



Oh my gosh..you actually helped.


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> I heard from 2 people privately with WILL NOT contain the disease. This is also speaking from people who HAD chytrid in the past or something similar.


Why are they being private? If they know a better way they should be public and letting us all know. I swear, frog people are very strange. 

I have no personal knowledge but here is what Ed says to do: double bag it and send it into the waste stream.
eta: he also says drying it out will kill the chytrid


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> Why are they being private? If they know a better way they should be public and letting us all know. I swear, frog people are very strange.
> 
> I have no personal knowledge but here is what Ed says to do: double bag it and send it into the waste stream.


They dont want to be attacked or brought into this MESS.

Yes drying it out... Me on camping trips in the desert in the middle of california I do it every year. Fire pit in the desert...cant go wrong. My opinion... Ill see if I can find an incinerator locally.


----------



## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> Ummmmm ok if you say so....


That purchase is a prospective purchase..and I been in touch with him....to let him know im not buying until i KNOW this disease is gone.


----------



## Halter

Bleach the racks, bleach the tanks, bleach everything. Everything that you used as decor i would just incenerate it.


----------



## mydumname

oddlot said:


> Greg,Unfortunately,I don't make the rules.If it were up to me I'd rather have this info out there,which is why I do say there is value to this as people who are interested would go the pm route.
> 
> Now if someone posted a thread about a particular show and had after show pics of all the vendors (like Frogday) and didn't zero out any one vendor, whether there were sick or dead animals or not, that may be a different scenario.
> 
> And you may not care about the transactions of dry goods,but others do and it shows the way sales and communications are handled.Chances are if you had a bad experience with someone and they couldn't get the dry goods right,you probably wouldn't want to get frogs from them,nor would others, which would learn from the feedback given.There has been a vendor that has been getting a slough of neg feedbacks recently so I have to disagree with that comment too.


That is why I said negative feedback only for stuff like that. It would weed out the bad sellers of that. Seeing positive feedback of leaves for example doesn't mean anything when it comes to frogs. Big difference. I wouldn't expect someone to leave feedback on me cause I shipped out a bag of leaves. That's where a point system like eBay would be nice as opposed to having to write paragraphs. 

Just my opinion of course....hope no one else gets burned on frogs by the people with good feedback on supplies. I guess I just find it funny reading feedback about how the person who sent them leaves is the greatest vendor ever.


----------



## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> That purchase is a prospective purchase..and I been in touch with him....to let him know im not buying until i KNOW this disease is gone.


So much with being done selling frogs.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Thats not a threat...its a promise... If i cant contain this problem...and prevent it from happening to others...I will sell everything i have...tanks..supplies...frogs that i KNOW are disease free. Treat the best I can with the others and just call it quits and start working on getting in touch with people and motions to shut the hobby down. I said I wasnt joking.


If this is the most mature response that you can muster, then there is no helping you. It is pathetic that you'll make a vendetta against the hobby because you screwed up. I'm done trying to help you until you back down from this asinine notion that you're going to get the hobby shut down. Making such statements only shows that you are incapable of rational thought. A sane person wouldn't be threatening to try and screw over an entire hobby because they made dumb mistakes.


----------



## CJ PELCH

who knows how to take a screen shot on samsung galaxy S4. Ill prove to you I'm not buying his frogs until its gone by conversation screen shot.


----------



## frogface

CJ PELCH said:


> They dont want to be attacked or brought into this MESS.
> 
> Yes drying it out... Me on camping trips in the desert in the middle of california I do it every year. Fire pit in the desert...cant go wrong. My opinion... Ill see if I can find an incinerator locally.


Please do not drag chytrid contaminated soil out into the wilderness anywhere.


----------



## carola1155

jacobi said:


> CJ, you mentioned earlier that you had a vet available to you. Have you spoken to him/her yet?





CJ PELCH said:


> Yes we spoke recently...been playing phone tag...hes always busy recently.


I wonder if he's busy because someone has been selling chytrid-ridden frogs at local shows...

Sorry... Haven't been around much lately and I'm just catching up on this thread here. I have to admit I saw this thread when it was first posted and the first thought in my mind was "gee I wonder who she got them from" (I knew).

Honestly can't say I'm surprised. Take a look back at the first few threads this guy ever posted in and try to honestly tell me "he seems like he will be a stable and valuable member of this community". We all would have been better off if he held true to his first few threats... He seems to randomly select when he will take advice constructively or as an insult (with no clear pattern as to which one will be next).

My biggest issue with all of this is going echo a couple things Greg mentioned a few pages back. The feedback section of this site sucks. I mean SUCKS. If someone does something terrible like this, it should be permanently recorded for all to see. He has put a black eye on our community/hobby and he should be ostracized and publicly shamed for it. But no, it's going to be just like the Taron issue and it will eventually get swept under the rug. 

And that is the end of my rant... You can all go back to attempting damage control... I wish you the best of luck, but I do not have high expectations for the outcome given the other party involved here.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Maybe this should be a sticky.


----------



## Ghost vivs

You may not like my solution but it will fix your problem...(well some of your problems) I'll even pay for it.










Apply to frogs, double bag everything and be done with it all.

Now before people jump on me for this solution ask yourself this - is HE going to do the right thing when he's holding a gun to YOUR head telling YOU to help HIM or else he will shoot...

Casper


----------



## carola1155

desperate times call for.......


----------



## Groundhog

mrzoggs said:


> If you are pissed, IMAGINE HOW WE FEEL


And how the frogs felt--before they painfully died. 

I am sorry to be so melodramatic--but someone had to say it...


----------



## jacobi

Holy hell, this degenerated. Guys, I think we need to ask ourselves what exactly it is that we are each trying to get out of this thread. It's been 48 pages of CJ refusing to take responsibility of any kind for anything he did, and has now deteriorated into threats that will affect our hobby which we care so much about. Frogface said it, the only way to make sure this is handled in any way approaching the correct way is by doing it ourselves. I'd volunteer but I live in New York. There really is no point trying to provide constructive criticism to someone who has shown incapable of receiving it.

By the way CJ, why are you wearing a military uniform in the photo on your website? (Mods, feel free to edit that out if you feel it's not pertinent)


----------



## Groundhog

CJ PELCH said:


> Its pathetic that you THINK I am joking at this point...you guys should have left me at peace and educate me instead.
> I have gained enough knoledge to treat and keep. But thats ok...you know I dont know what im talking about. Im always wrong.


I am going to try and be patient here. CJ, you are probably not going to like some of the things I am going to write. Please try to understand, while it will be critical, even personal, it is not malicious.

See, the problem is that you have not in fact "gained enough knowledge to treat and keep." I know that you believe that you have, but you clearly have not. Everything you write leads many of us experienced and/or educated keepers to seriously doubt your competence, as well as your motives. What gets lost here is that this is not about you, me or "the hobby;" it is about animals that are at our mercy. I am no PETA person, but is our moral responsibility to know what the #@!& we are doing.

Alas, you simply have not demonstrated enough competence, patience or maturity to be taken seriously. We read your other threads, and they were bizarre and irrational--sometimes incoherent. I'm sorry, but that is the honest assessment of every brahmin here. I am no trained psychologist, but you seem to have an impatient, impulsive need to dive in and prove all of us wrong. Too much, too fast. It is one thing when a 19 yr-old college student thinks (s)he is single-handedly going to stop climate change or end child slavery--a quixotic waste of time... But in your case, real live sentient beings suffered. Impulsiveness and impatience gets pets killed. 

It is time that you stop, take a deep breath, and learn from this. You need to:

1) Disinfect or dispose all materials in accordance with accepted protocols--no more bullshit;

2) Get out of the frog business, and I mean like now. Please stop until you have done the following:
a: (I may have written this before, but) please get a hold of:
DesvosJoli, Philippe. _Popular Amphibians_;
'' " _Popular Treefrogs_.
Edmonds, Devin. _Tree Frogs_;
Zimmerman, Elke. _Breeding Terrarium Animals_ (Thanks, Ed)

and find and read any relevant articles in _Reptiles_ magazine.

You are not to proceed until you you have read and grasped all of this material. I am quite serious. 

b: I am not going to ask you to euthanize any animal. But if you ever choose to go back into into business, all animals you have now must be isolated permanently. That means a different floor, not Just a different room. If this is not doable, you must not and cannot vend--PERIOD.

3) Should you choose to go back into business and acquire breeding stock, you will have all facilities set up before you bring home any animals. Sorry CJ, but you of all people are no longer entitled to "But this was a great deal, could not pass it up, will set em up next week when I get..." No. You are not permitted to do this, we will not accept it. 

CJ, let me make this absolutely clear: This is your only road back to atonement. It may be discussable, but it is non-negotiable. It is time for you to comprehend why. 

The Groundhog has spoken.


----------



## CJ PELCH

Ghost vivs said:


> You may not like my solution but it will fix your problem...(well some of your problems) I'll even pay for it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apply to frogs, double bag everything and be done with it all.
> 
> Now before people jump on me for this solution ask yourself this - is HE going to do the right thing when he's holding a gun to YOUR head telling YOU to help HIM or else he will shoot...
> 
> Casper


Yah your on crack...my frogs arnt in pain...nor are they sick. I already treated the frogs... Its the enclosures that need to be treated in the DEAD tanks. Dont worry...I already got a scads member willing to help. Thanks anyway. Nor did I threaten him or promise anything. END OF DISCUSSION....only thing you will be seeing is a REDUCTION in tanks and enclosures and frogs. Im cutting everything out but whites and red eyes...and whites have been treated ....so have those enclosures... I will retest here shortly..but all of my other tanks are for sale...including racks if anyone wants them.... Im done with other species... My fault was mixing species...Now ill prevent it by reducing it to 4 tanks. and 2 species. But im not euthanizing my frogs when i can treat them. I need help treating the remaining enclosures...thats all ...not the frogs...thats the easy part.

I have about 20 gallons of BIOBALLS FOR SALE and about another 15 LDL substrate... Ill use the cricket food up. Im not giving up the hobby..sorry. I had to go out and have 2 drinks to come to my senses...but in all reality I like my new solution.. Limit my sizes treat whats needed and got help from a scads member to break down tanks and sell off all but 4 tanks and 1 rack. I have also handed over ownership of my company tonight.


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> Dont worry...I already got a scads member willing to help.


Would he like to contribute to this thread? Wait... let me guess. He wants it to be a secret....


----------



## Ghost vivs

You need help breaking down tanks??? Way to put it on the shoulder(s) of other people when you couldn't find the time to break them down but could spend hours on here making up excuses or trying to pass the buck. 

I stayed out of this thread until you said "help me or else I'll try to shut your hobby down" 


So you can't get the pity you seek from the "it's not my fault" approach you switch to a blackmail approach??? 

Cut your losses instead of trying to make others pay for YOUR stupid mistakes. This is the real world! The people in this hobby owe you nothing. We are not your parents so stop demanding we help you fix your mess! Grow the f$#@ up and take responsibility for your damn self...


Casper


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Please please please do NOT sell your tanks and racks , etc. to some random person on craigslist.


----------



## Halter

How many times do we need to say it CJ....*everything* NEEDS TO GO IN THE INCINERATOR.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> Yah your on crack...my frogs arnt in pain...


The oragel is one way to euthanize frogs. He wasn't suggesting they were in pain, he was suggesting you humanely euthanize them to spare them further suffering while in your care.



> nor are they sick. I already treated the frogs...


That still remains to be seen. Just because you've treated them, does not mean they're not still sick, carrying CYTRID, etc. we shall see if you follow thru on your promise to share test results. Even if they come back clean, you still need to be responsible and test 3 months from now, at 6 month and then at a year and then every year after that.



> Its the enclosures that need to be treated in the DEAD tanks. Dont worry...I already got a scads member willing to help. Thanks anyway. Nor did I threaten him or promise anything. END OF DISCUSSION...


Actually far from it. Who is this SCADS member? I would like to thank them personally. If they see this and don't want to be public, fine, I understand, but please PM me privately so I can find a way to thank you. Like this guy or not, helping deal with the CYTRID problem is the right thing to do.



> .only thing you will be seeing is a REDUCTION in tanks and enclosures and frogs. Im cutting everything out but whites and red eyes...and whites have been treated ....so have those enclosures...
> 
> I will retest here shortly.. /////snipped out since this part was just basically a FS Ad////// Limit my sizes treat whats needed and got help from a scads member to break down tanks and sell off all but 4 tanks and 1 rack. I have also handed over ownership of my company tonight.


It's too bad you've pawned off your tainted business to them. I wish them the best of luck. Whoever they are, I hope they read this and realize anything they get from you is potentially contaminated.


----------



## JPccusa

To the nice SCADS member helping CJ, make sure to be *really careful* after working at his place. Consider your skin and anything you wear to be fully contaminated. Follow proper disinfection procedures before going back to your house and after leaving CJ's. 



CJ PELCH said:


> who knows how to take a screen shot on samsung galaxy S4. Ill prove to you I'm not buying his frogs until its gone by conversation screen shot.


Hold the home button and the right side button simultaneously for a couple of seconds.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Mystery scads member, if you need help covering any costs, or just want a beer, I'll be happy to throw a few dollars your way

PS thx for manning up and help dealing with this shit


----------



## frogface

JPccusa said:


> To the nice SCADS member helping CJ, make sure to be *really careful* after working at his place. Consider your skin and anything you wear to be fully contaminated. Follow proper disinfection procedures before going back to your house and after leaving CJ's.
> 
> 
> 
> Hold the home button and the right side button simultaneously for a couple of seconds.


Maybe even see about getting one of those disposable paper suits to wear. Or, clothing and shoes that you will throw away. Maybe shower at CJs (and put on clean clothes) before getting into your vehicle.


----------



## frogface

Email from Ed (posted with his permission):



> Chytrid doesn't survive exposure to human skin... it is rapidly degraded See http://eprints.jcu.edu.au/6215/1/6215_Mendez_et_al_2008.pdf (nitrile gloves also killed it)...
> 
> In addition, dry conditions kill the zoospores (the infectious agent of the fungus)... so dry clothes aren't going to be able to transmit it.
> 
> People need to get away from the whole incinerate argument as it isn't needed... simple through drying will kill the fungus. Or even heating everything thoroughly to 200 F will kill it...
> 
> As for ranavirus holding the dry materials for 30-50 days will be sufficient to inactivate all of the viral particles see http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/mgray/ranavirus/2012Publications/Naziretal2012.pdf
> 
> Any non-organic materials (glass for example) can be sterilized using bleach... It should be noted that potassium permanganate (KMNO4) is not effective at killing ranaviruses)... See http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/mgray/Publications/DAO84_89_94.pdf
> 
> Bleach is suggested for use with amphibians as once it has been rinsed and dried, it leaves no residues. One should avoid anything that contains a surfactant (such as dish soap, novalsan) as surfactants can persist on surfaces and irritate amphibian skin, or anything that can bind to or be absorbed by plastics (for example Roccal)
> 
> KMnO4 tends to react resulting in MNO2 deposited into the environment and it has been demonstrated that manganese is toxic to amphibian tadpoles so KMn)4 should not be used where tadpoles (and potentially adult anurans can be exposed to it).. See Toxicities of some heavy metals to the tadpoles of frog, Microhyla ornata (dumeril & bibron)


Thank you Ed!


----------



## mydumname

How is chlorhexydine?


----------



## kermit2

Unfortunately the expense of testing is what is holding them back. If you purchase an animal, you quarantine it until you know for sure that the animal is in fact healthy or is not carrying pathogens which could harm your collection. For those of us that are new, this is the first mistake that is usually made. We all have done it.


----------



## kermit2

Another words test your animals yourself for chytrid and rana. If it is chytrid , there is hope in curing the animal. If it is rana, it may not be the lethal strain but take caution.


----------



## Splash&Dash

kermit2 said:


> Unfortunately the expense of testing is what is holding them back. If you purchase an animal, you quarantine it until you know for sure that the animal is in fact healthy or is not carrying pathogens which could harm your collection. For those of us that are new, this is the first mistake that is usually made. We all have done it.


agreed, everyone makes mistakes and shit happens regardless of how careful we are. But the important thing is how we deal with such situations, and that here leaves lots to be desired, on a number of levels


----------



## Ed

mydumname said:


> How is chlorhexydine?


 see my comments on nolvasan (although I misspelled it above). 

Ed


----------



## Heatheranne

Corey, 

The anger throughout this very large post is quite understandable. Whether poor practices, poor husbandry, contaminated frogs...it really doesn't even matter at this point. It jeopardizes the hobby. 

Can you imagine if in some way the contact was spread throughout the show? The thoughts not only sadden me but make me ill. These are the reasons the agencies want to ban our wonderful hobby....the exact reasons. Taking/buying wild caught animals (causing endangered species), spreading disease, possibly contaminating local species. It's not only disastrous, but it's what many of us who truly care about amphibians, their existence, and saving their populations are trying to avoid... It's the whole thing! 

We love frogs for the wonders that they are. Those who provide them with these amazing vivariums / homes, great care and husbandry, and cherish their beauty...we are the ones who when read this are not only disappointed, but purely disgusted. It's so sad! It doesn't matter if it was you or someone else, it's still the same. Continuing to sell frogs with unknown health clearance is just plain wrong. You and I both know if it were someone else, you would not only be having a fit, but I'm sure the words would have burned a hole right through them.

As a frog rescuer and recoverer with funds from my own pockets...this was very hard to read. I'm sure you can understand that. It rather breaks my heart. I have spent hundreds of dollars rescuing, while others continue to sell despite poor prognosis :'(. So sad and tragic really.

Perhaps you should just take some time away from the hobby? You need to either treat your whole, I mean whole, collection or make the decision to euthanize them for the greater good? I am not an animal killer, so it is difficult to say it. I have spoken many times to the infectious disease specialists in my area about things like this, as I work in health care. Trust me, it's not pretty. Rid your home of everything or completely decontaminate everything, the right way. Dispose of the deceased properly to protect local species. Do it right. Learn. Read. Study. And when you're back on your feet, start over if you feel it is right for you. Start with good known breeders with known healthy frogs. Have a frog medicine cabinet. Know the first signs of disease. Have a great vet available. And always, always, always quarantine every frog individually for at least 30-60 days to prevent this. Use proper hygiene techniques. Wash between tanks or use gloves. This is the reality. Frogs are like little sponges... disease transmission happens so quickly and easily. In humans it would be like contact with mucous membranes to other mucous membranes. 

As a breeder you need to protect them and understand them. It's not just about breeding pretty frogs for money. Know the species, inside and out. And always be prepared for things like this that may happen. 

For everyone else reading, this is truly a valuable lesson learned. Please know your breeders, where the frogs come from, and always quarantine your frogs. It will save you time, money, supplies, equipment, the lives of your frogs and much heart ache. One at a time can be treated. With proper hygiene between tanks you can prevent transmission. And your beautiful vivariums will not be ruined. It's the safest way.

Sorry this was so long. As I read it I thought... I should not reply. I have nothing nice to say. Much of what I wrote has already been implied or said. I pondered and thought how can this be fixed? How can we stop what has been done? 

Well, this is the way. Stop the disease transmission, know what your buying, and do it right. Educate yourselves. What's done is done, sad as it may be. Just don't put yourself in the place of the next victim. It is our responsibility to be a smart buyer, as a good pet owner. And remember, once taken home, these innocent animals have no choice but to accept what care you give them...so if you can't provide what they need, then don't bring them home. 

Night all! 
Sincerely,
Heather

And yes, CJ, many of us next door are here also. Keep that in mind. As a frog protector, I have decided to tell you this in person... I have accepted the responsibility of keeping a close eye on things from our side as well. All of the mods know. I myself have told them. Sorry, it is out of respect to the hobby.


----------



## Heatheranne

Splash&Dash said:


> agreed, everyone makes mistakes and shit happens regardless of how careful we are. But the important thing is how we deal with such situations, and that here leaves lots to be desired, on a number of levels


Yes, exactly. We are human. Learn from this bad experience and move forward.


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## CJ PELCH

Thanks for chiming in heather... I am taking a break from the hobby.
I sold half of my company over to a snake breeder that was interested in owning it for sometime now. I will still play a part in the company as an administrator...but as far as breeding and selling frogs...I have put a 100% halt on it from My facility. All further questions can be directed towards her and she is willing to answer ANY questions about what my new position is in the company. 

Katelynn 209-684-3375

(sorry mods not sure if phone numbers can be on here, but she is willing to accept calls and answer questions. You can delete it if needed)


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## Halter

I hope so

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## frogface

RETFgirl, if you are still reading this, have you treated your frogs yet? That's what I would do. Treat them as if they have chytrid. The treatment is not difficult and is pretty cheap. Just need some over the counter Lamasil. I'll look around for posts that outline how it's done.

Ok here is what I found. If anyone has other info, please post it: 1ml of Lamisil (1% Terbinafine Hydrochloride) to 200mls of water. Soaked for 5 minutes every day for 10 days (I'm only up to day 5).

This is the continous spray lamasil AT.

Here's the thread that info came from: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/31507-leuc-chytrid.html

Here's what Corey is doing: 1cc LAMISIL spray to 220ml decholorinated water bath for 5-7 minutes. Each each day after treatment put frog into seperate quarantine tank and bleach the one that was used the day before. Treat for 14 days...then quarantine for another 15 days then RETEST. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/1591993-post6.html


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## frogface

RETFgirl, the reason I'm bringing this up is that someone sent me a link to a Crag's List ad and asked if it was you. If it is you, please pull this add until your frogs have been treated. If you have already treated them, please give us an update. If it's not you, then never mind but still treat your frogs. 

Captive Bred Exotic Red Eyed Tree Frogs proven breeders


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## epiphytes etc.

Are you £√¢\<ing joking? I really hope this isn't her.


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## Splash&Dash

what a cluster f*ck


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## scoy

Forget retired cops... Next time you need a private eye come to DB. Haha


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## frogface

scoy said:


> Forget retired cops... Next time you need a private eye come to DB. Haha


Hahahah you have me in a giggling fit


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## Halter

I certainly hope its not frog face are you sure?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## frogface

Halter said:


> I certainly hope its not frog face are you sure?
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


No, I'm not sure, except for the name, location, and the special blue frog. I'm hoping RETFgirl will stop by and clear it up.


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## kitcolebay

frogface said:


> No, I'm not sure, except for the name, location, and the special blue frog. I'm hoping RETFgirl will stop by and clear it up.


I agree...it sure looks to be that way. A whole lot of similarities.


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## Halter

Too many similarities : /

I hope RETF girl can clarify.


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## bsr8129

It's the same and look now the CL listing has been deleted by its author.


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## Halter

I messaged the person and inquired about it..

mods if I'm out of line please delete but here's the entire conversation

Sorry about my absolutely terrible sentence structure and spelling, i usually "talk" into my phone and it just awful lol.

[









Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## bsr8129

That makes absolutely no sence. Same name same location same frogs same size tank and now we are to believe its not reft girl.


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## oldlady25715

Los Angeles is a huge freakin area, but good lookin out guys.


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## Judy S

I've not seen it mentioned in the water bath stage of discussion that you have got to make sure that the frog's HEAD is also treated...using a syringe..yes, take the needle off....or something like it...a medicine dropper..suck up some of the solution...or instead, be able to tip the bathing solution to make it deep enough that the Lamisil solution washes over the frog's head.


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## Groundhog

RE: post #506--text of Halter's conv. will not copy.

Time to get into character and put on my film noir and comic book hats (I am wearing my fedora as I write this):

Pardon me, but how do we know that RETF girl is a "single mother?" If I remember correctly, I believe she is a self-described "stay at home mom"--not synonymous, boyz...

Which may mean:

"Wow. Small world. I was given these by a co-worker. They were his and his wifes."

So I ask you, Marlowe, Mike Hammer, Dixon Hill:
*
Who is the "wife?"*

I now think we may have to call Ace Ventura--although if our fears are correct, this the _locus classicus_--the textbook moth#$%@#ing example of how this spreads...

P. S.

I have two magnums: One's a gun and I keep it loaded; other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded...


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## Groundhog

Seriously: The one of us who possesses the best narrative skills should write this up and publish it in a relevant magazine. This shit is straight outta Elmore Leonard...

"It ain't the coffee in my kitchen. It's the dead amphibian in my garage."


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## Halter

^^^The Groundhog has spoken

I really hope RETFgirl see's all of this and can clarify.
If it was her or not, We can at least feel somewhat comfortable that they were treated(at least we hope so).

Still a situation that should not happen. Those frogs should of never of been given away or resold.---Just my .02


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## ZookeeperDoug

You have got to be freaking kidding me.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Of course the craigslist ad was deleted, so I can't go back, but I'm pretty sure the frog in the picture in this thread was among the pictures on the craigslist ad before it was taken down.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/tree-frogs/126433-blue-red-eyed-tree-frog-normal-new-morph.html


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## Brian317

Wow, this has taken a turn. 

Did anybody happen to screen capture the ad before it was taken down to compare the photo?


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## Ed

Judy S said:


> I've not seen it mentioned in the water bath stage of discussion that you have got to make sure that the frog's HEAD is also treated...using a syringe..yes, take the needle off....or something like it...a medicine dropper..suck up some of the solution...or instead, be able to tip the bathing solution to make it deep enough that the Lamisil solution washes over the frog's head.


No, as long as the frog is in contact with the solution on it's extremities and belly, it is sufficient. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## CJ PELCH

Uggh.. I had to go back in my old phone because the similarities were to similar. That phone number you have in your transaction history HALTER, the number is RETFGIRL. I have that number in my history as her phone number. Its not a secondary buyer....im sorry.

Britney...if your reading this...give the frogs back to me and ill treat them. I am willing to test and treat all the remaining frogs. I also do not ever plan on reselling them anywhere...or give them away...but I can at least provide them a loving home instead of spreading the disease anymore. I would like the paperwork as well where you stated they tested negative. Honestly I don't believe you. Mike would have told me otherwise.


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## Halter

Halter is retf girl??? Wtf u saying fool.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Halter is retf girl??? Wtf u saying fool.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


reread it again and please don't call me a fool. Thanks.


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## Halter

Can u take a screenshot with the past text messages. I wont believe a thing you ever day without proof. I dont put it past you to try and make her look even.more responsible to save your own a#%

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## Groundhog

CJ PELCH said:


> That phone number you have in your transaction history HALTER, the number is RETFGIRL. I have that number in my history as her phone number. Its not a secondary buyer....im sorry.


I too have been critical of CJ, but this is Just a grammatical misunderstanding. Although it could have been avoided with better construction, thus:

"That phone number you have in your transaction history, HALTER*--*the number is RETFGIRL*'s*."

Now CJ, you do realize what it is you are accusing Britney of, in print? I want to be perfectly clear here, with no further ambiguity.


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Can u take a screenshot with the past text messages. I wont believe a thing you ever day without proof. I dont put it past you to try and make her look even.more responsible to save your own a#%
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


Here. I hope this is everything you need.


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## CJ PELCH

and i have a couple more ... I can go on and on... I have pages of messages


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## CJ PELCH

These messages also prove britney had sick frogs PRIOR to me selling them to her.


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## Groundhog

Two serious questions, gang:

1) Assume the ad poster did in fact, treat the frogs, and they showed clean, had the paperwork, etc. *How long does one have to wait before they can*:

a) Introduce them to a vivarium;

_OR_

b) Decide to give/sell them to another owner? 

Consider that many of us have acquired herps that could be disease vectors--anything from WC amphibians to tropical lizards to chelonians--what we did/do is put them through standard quarantine regimens. (Although I understand that 60 or even 90 days may not be enough for some pathogens).

2)* Is it really feasible--in the interest of humane animal rescue--to adopt a sick amphibian and isolate it from the rest of one's pets?* Or is this Just too problematic? 

Or is the answer simply logistical, e.g., if one has a three-story house. yes; if one has a large studio (or, Just one "frog room"), no? This seems to be the consensus of what I have been reading--is this the case? 

I do hope that Ed and/or Doug weigh in on this!


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## frogface

CJ, I feel you have been partially exonerated. In the text we see that a frog with a respiratory illness is either going to be treated or taken to PetCo.


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## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> These messages also prove britney had sick frogs PRIOR to me selling them to her.


Seriously?
Still trying to push this off on her? Lets not forget who sold infected dumpys at a show recently..

---glad you were able to clarify that number.


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> Seriously?
> Still trying to push this off on her? Lets not forget who sold infected dumpys at a show recently..
> 
> ---glad you were able to clarify that number.


Not pushing ANYTHING off...I have taken full responsibility for chytrid and thats it. Nothing more or less. But if her frogs came back negative as she claimed...I dont even know what to believe anymore...I just want the frogs back...so I know they dont get pawned off. I have FULL first aid kit and I am willing to treat all of them.

Also..dumpys are NOT infected. I guess i need to prove that as well?


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## Halter

I dont believe a word you say. Your entire facility is infected with chytrid = your dumpys are infected....Did you not learn anything at all from this thread cj?

Oh yeah, you didnt you take constructive criticism like my 9 year old nephew.


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## CJ PELCH

Halter said:


> I dont believe a word you say. Your entire facility is infected with chytrid = your dumpys are infected....Did you not learn anything at all from this thread cj?
> 
> Oh yeah, you didnt you take constructive criticism like my 9 year old nephew.


I said ill prove it to you.. also there was nothing constructive in that post.


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## Groundhog

CJ PELCH said:


> These messages also prove britney had sick frogs PRIOR to me selling them to her.


CJ: This does not "prove" anything, as we do not know the relevant dates.. 

However, in the interest of fairness: When did this transaction with Britney take place? 

*Also--very important--did you sell any Agalychnis callydrias that were exposed to the rain chamber with the Leptopelis ulugurensis? To Britney or anyone else? *

Seriously, if the answer is yes, I won't yell, and no else should either. We are only trying to clarify what happened. Please don't take this the wrong way: I did not approve of your husbandry practices--but I am trying to be fair about the transactions. 

SO GANG: If it turns out that CJ did screw this up let's try to explain it, w/o yelling or insulting. (Yeah, that goes for me, too.) To be (too) candid, I think CJ has been a screw-up--not malicious, but still a screw-up... But I also realize that there is the real possibility that his frogs may not have been the primary source of the infection--this really does depend on the dates. 

CJ: Please come clean about the dates, and which frogs you sold. 
Gang: Whether he screwed up or not, let us try to keep it professional, okay? We can criticize--and educate--w/o losing our tempers (hard as that might be...)


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## Halter

CJ PELCH said:


> I said ill prove it to you.. also there was nothing constructive in that post.


Sorry i think i just say what almost everyone else is thinking.
I forgot how informational all of your posts are cj!

But on a note.
I feel that if these frogs were indeed tested (which if this is the op) then i think that gives us a little bit of relief. 
However, depending on husbandy techs the frogs in question could easily become re infected. If the cage was not bleached after each treatment the spores would still be there and re-infection would occur ( i would think)...

The only really way i would think it is a good idea to rehome them is 6 months after initial lamasil treatment and a clean chytrid test twice. 
So...test= positive...treat, test= negative...retest in 6 months test = negative, then i feel it would be a OK to possibly rehome.

But in no way shape or form should these animals be used for breeding stock. My .02


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## frogface

I agree Groundhog with the understanding that Corey's frogs could not have gotten chytrid from RETFgirl's. As far as I know, we don't actually have a diagnosis for RETFgirl's frogs. It sure looked like chytrid and acted like chytrid but I'm not aware of any actual testing of her group.


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## CJ PELCH

Groundhog said:


> CJ: This does not "prove" anything, as we do not know the relevant dates..
> 
> However, in the interest of fairness: When did this transaction with Britney take place?
> 
> *Also--very important--did you sell any Agalychnis callydrias that were exposed to the rain chamber with the Leptopelis ulugurensis? To Britney or anyone else? *
> 
> Seriously, if the answer is yes, I won't yell, and no else should either. We are only trying to clarify what happened. Please don't take this the wrong way: I did not approve of your husbandry practices--but I am trying to be fair about the transactions.
> 
> SO GANG: If it turns out that CJ did screw this up let's try to explain it, w/o yelling or insulting. (Yeah, that goes for me, too.) To be (too) candid, I think CJ has been a screw-up--not malicious, but still a screw-up... But I also realize that there is the real possibility that his frogs may not have been the primary source of the infection--this really does depend on the dates.
> 
> CJ: Please come clean about the dates, and which frogs you sold.
> Gang: Whether he screwed up or not, let us try to keep it professional, okay? We can criticize--and educate--w/o losing our tempers (hard as that might be...)


Yes same frogs were sold to her that were in same tank as the leptos. This was addressed earlier and that's why I take full responsibilty for the chytridiomycosis. 

She bought the frogs August 10th. La reptile super show. August 10th-11th


----------



## Splash&Dash

Halter said:


> Sorry i think i just say what almost everyone else is thinking.
> I forgot how informational all of your posts are cj!
> 
> But on a note.
> I feel that if these frogs were indeed tested (which if this is the op) then i think that gives us a little bit of relief.
> However, depending on husbandy techs the frogs in question could easily become re infected. If the cage was not bleached after each treatment the spores would still be there and re-infection would occur ( i would think)...
> 
> The only really way i would think it is a good idea to rehome them is 6 months after initial lamasil treatment and a clean chytrid test twice.
> So...test= positive...treat, test= negative...retest in 6 months test = negative, then i feel it would be a OK to possibly rehome.
> 
> But in no way shape or form should these animals be used for breeding stock. My .02


ehh, I wouldn't assume they were actually tested ...


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## Groundhog

frogface said:


> CJ, I feel you have been partially exonerated. In the text we see that a frog with a respiratory illness is either going to be treated or taken to PetCo.


And let's be straight up: Any good defense attorney would know what do with this. If the burden of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt," then CJ has a case. Everything else is conJecture, not proof.

However, I am not interested in siding with CJ _or_ Britney, so much as I am in understanding what happened, so they--we-- can learn from it. 

To reiterate: Frogs died. That needs to be our focus.


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## CJ PELCH

Splash&Dash said:


> ehh, I wouldn't assume they were actually tested ...


I agree with this statement...because Mike would have told me they were. Mike was to get a hard copy of my tests and her tests to come to a conclusion.

I also dont want anyone taking sides with me on this... I made a mistake in a husbandry. Leptos and red eyes housed together for enough time to spread chytrid from one to another. I am willing to pay for this mistake and already have. I just wish this crap would end...treat those frogs and test and move on. That mistake WILL NEVER happen again due to some learning experience...but here nor there... I think it can be fixed if she either euthanizes the frogs...and bleaches the tank...or gives them back to me for treatment and test and retest. Its obviously apparent she doesnt want the surviving frogs anyway.


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## Groundhog

CJ PELCH said:


> Yes same frogs were sold to her that were in same tank as the leptos. This was addressed earlier and that's why I take full responsibilty for the chytridiomycosis.
> 
> She bought the frogs july 7th. La reptile super show. July 7th and 8th


Thank you for your honesty, sir. To me you are no lying SOB--Just a screw-up...

Now, what you--and we--all need to do is get on the same page (Christ, how I hate cliches) regarding our husbandy protocols. You may be aware that we now have to deal a salamander chytrid. Between these two chytrids (fuck them, btw) and ranavirus, we simply cannot cut corners. In a world of imports, lab animals, pet shops, herp shows, internet sales, we all need to be careful. Not Plum Island/CDC careful, but careful. 

When in doubt--read and ask. Hell, I did an hour ago! (post #525)


----------



## CJ PELCH

Groundhog said:


> Thank you for your honesty, sir. To me you are no lying SOB--Just a screw-up...
> 
> Now, what you--and we--all need to do is get on the same page (Christ, how I hate cliches) regarding our husbandy protocols. You may be aware that we now have to deal a salamander chytrid. Between these two chytrids (fuck them, btw) and ranavirus, we simply cannot cut corners. In a world of imports, lab animals, pet shops, herp shows, internet sales, we all need to be careful. Not Plum Island/CDC careful, but careful.
> 
> When in doubt--read and ask. Hell, I did an hour ago!


NOTE>>>JULY 7th and 8th was not the REPTILE SHOW DATE it was august 10th and 11th... I had to look at the receipt....I did screw up...thats for sure.


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## CJ PELCH

This was the start of the conversation. August 2nd 8 days before the show.


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## CJ PELCH

Here was the exact dates and times.


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## CJ PELCH

Groundhog said:


> Thank you for your honesty, sir. To me you are no lying SOB--Just a screw-up...
> 
> Now, what you--and we--all need to do is get on the same page (Christ, how I hate cliches) regarding our husbandy protocols. You may be aware that we now have to deal a salamander chytrid. Between these two chytrids (fuck them, btw) and ranavirus, we simply cannot cut corners. In a world of imports, lab animals, pet shops, herp shows, internet sales, we all need to be careful. Not Plum Island/CDC careful, but careful.
> 
> When in doubt--read and ask. Hell, I did an hour ago! (post #525)


There are actually over 10 different strains...its not just two. I learned that from Research Associates Laboratory back last september prior to getting my frogs getting the initial test. They luckily test for 10 strains of it.


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## Cfrog

Super show in San Diego was July 12-13, were you at both?


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## CJ PELCH

rain dart said:


> Super show in San Diego was July 12-13, were you at both?


No LA was my very first show... I was a customer at the san diego show not a vendor...got some waxworms from RAINBOW MEALWORMS... thought the moths would be good for the red eyes...


----------



## CJ PELCH

Well due to recent events on the forum(s)... and katlynn stating she cant run the company without me. I have come to a conclusion to shut down the company. ALL ITEMS MUST GO! Ill be posting on the classifieds what is being sold for CHEAP!!!


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## Cfrog

Um well this is...well....


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## CJ PELCH

oh god...im gunna miss these guys =(


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## CJ PELCH

and these guys as well =(


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## easternversant

I've kept quiet about all of this, but......

Closing the business side doesn't really mean you have to get rid of your pets. You can still keep and enjoy them.

Also, given everything that has occurred I don't really think it is ethical to pass off any of these animals (or tanks, lights, misters, anything really) to another keeper. It sucks that you feel you have to shut down, but this isn't really a situation in which you can sell out your "inventory" so you can "cut your losses" if that makes sense.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Hopefully considering the content of this thread, the moderators who have to approve any items in the for sale section, carefully consider this thread when determining wether or not to allow those for sale threads to be posted.


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## bsr8129

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Hopefully considering the content of this thread, the moderators who have to approve any items in the for sale section, carefully consider this thread when determining wether or not to allow those for sale threads to be posted.


Or they can just sell them on craigslist.


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## CJ PELCH

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Hopefully considering the content of this thread, the moderators who have to approve any items in the for sale section, carefully consider this thread when determining wether or not to allow those for sale threads to be posted.


At this point after all the ridicule I lost my care for whats ethical anymore. My love for the hobby is gone and I despise it now.....I have no one to blame but myself..


----------



## jacobi

CJ PELCH said:


> At this point after all the ridicule I lost my care for whats ethical anymore. My love for the hobby is gone and I despise it now.....I have no one to blame but myself..


So.... you can't make money off the frogs anymore, so you no longer care about them or their health?


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## Cfrog

rain dart said:


> Um well this is...well....


This comment was, wow really your going to mix them into our collections?


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## CJ PELCH

jacobi said:


> So.... you can't make money off the frogs anymore, so you no longer care about them or their health?


Never even made a penny. As far as the health is concerned if no one buys them they WILL be euthanized. All 30 plus of them...ick


----------



## Halter

30? Man i swear like a week ago u only had like 10...no point in trying to make sense of you actions...you are a FOOL to sell ur supplies and frogs that are contaminated, and potentially infecting other hobbyists collection...AGAIN.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## frogface

Ok I don't know a lot about it, but, aren't the frogs ok once they are treated and then tested again as negative? Also, if chytrid does not survive drying, wouldn't the racks and whatnot be ok if they have dried? 

I'd still throw away supplies and sanitize racks and tanks, though.


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## CJ PELCH

halter said:


> 30? Man i swear like a week ago u only had like 10...no point in trying to make sense of you actions...you are a fool to sell ur supplies and frogs that are contaminated, and potentially infecting other hobbyists collection...again.
> 
> Sent from my sph-d710 using tapatalk


i do not care!!!


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## ZookeeperDoug

CJ PELCH said:


> At this point after all the ridicule I lost my care for whats ethical anymore. My love for the hobby is gone and I despise it now.....I have no one to blame but myself..


Can I drive one of the floats in the pity parade?


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## JPccusa

Enough is enough, CJ. 



CJ PELCH said:


> I dont have that many frogs anymore. *I'm down to 38.* I had that many with the RETF and Whites babies. In any case no. I did GROUP SWABS...swabbed every frog on one swab in that enclosure. VETDNA Said that is sufficient and ANY trace of chytrid or rana will be picked up.
> I sanitized the effected tanks yes. I did NOT sanitize the NEGATIVE enclosures. I didnt want to risk at the time of taking them out of a clean enclosure to be exposed to anything via handling or transfer. Dont worry I will be doing more tests. I support the idea of testing before the shows now.
> 
> EDIT: Actually You have every right to worry. But be rest assured....I will be doing more tests of EVERY enclosure again.





Halter said:


> Like what? yiu said u slimmed down your collection to 38. Were they all negative? Just thinking about it im seeing more inconsistencies with your stories.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk





CJ PELCH said:


> *No they all died.* (I did a water change and something in the water killed close to that amount) Could of been water temp too... They all died in about 15 minutes. I was including tadpoles in that count. Thats the white tree frogs.... The red eyes...75% of them never made it to froglet stage...i am relating the problem to chytrid...after research of chytrid in tadpoles. The few red eye babies I did have. Never made it past chytrid treatment. They died in the middle of it.





CJ PELCH said:


> Yah your on crack...my frogs arnt in pain...nor are they sick. I already treated the frogs... Its the enclosures that need to be treated in the DEAD tanks. Dont worry...I already got a scads member willing to help. Thanks anyway. Nor did I threaten him or promise anything. END OF DISCUSSION....only thing you will be seeing is a REDUCTION in tanks and enclosures and frogs. Im cutting everything out but whites and red eyes...and whites have been treated ....so have those enclosures... I will retest here shortly..but all of my other tanks are for sale...including racks if anyone wants them.... Im done with other species... My fault was mixing species...Now ill prevent it by reducing it to 4 tanks. and 2 species. *But im not euthanizing my frogs when i can treat them.* I need help treating the remaining enclosures...thats all ...not the frogs...thats the easy part.





CJ PELCH said:


> Never even made a penny. As far as the health is concerned if no one buys them *they WILL be euthanized. All 30 plus of them*...ick


Use your time off to get your life back on track.


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