# Possible Hybrid being sold on kingsnake?



## Toxic

So today i was looking through kingsnake and i came across this ad for Podwer Blues. Maybe im wrong, but when i looked at the pic, it does not look like any powder blue ive ever seen before. If anything, it looks more like an alanis/powder blue hybrid. What if these people have a hybrid and are trying to sell it as a true powder blue?! Anyways, maybe im wrong. What do you guys think?
here's the link:
kingsnake.com Classifieds: BIG POWDER BLUE TINC DART FROGS - ONLY $50 EACH
Here's the pic i was looking at:








and here is what a powder blue is suppose to look like:


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## frogparty

Thanks to dart frog w****house we will be seeing a lot of this


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## hypostatic

Yep, seems like knowing the lineage of your frogs just got a lot more important


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## billschwinn

one pic is not showing, please fix.


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## Toxic

which one?


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## bsr8129

If you read the add, it seems as though they are wild caught


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## pafrogguy

The picture of the possible hybrid frog is not showing.


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## Toxic

Here's the pic again.


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## FroggyKnight

billschwinn said:


> one pic is not showing, please fix.


Same. 

John 

Edit: got it now, thanks


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## frogparty

its being sold through underground reptiles. They are SAYING field collected... but I urge you to check out their rep on faunaclassifieds.com before you decide to believe them or not. 


I also know that all they do is flip animals......so I wouldnt be surprised if they are just middle manning the crap out of DFW's frogs.



AND... when was the last time you saw a WC tinc go for $50 recently?


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## thedude

They mention they are field collected, so it's possible they came in with that name from the collectors or maybe they didn't have any info so these guys gave them a best guess name. They are $50 adult tincs after all.

Edit: looks like someone beat me to it.


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## frogparty

LOL Adam..... great minds think alike, but fools seldom differ


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## Toxic

Looking at their website, the only dart frogs they have for sale are Powder blues and Alanis. its possible they keep all these frogs in the same inclosure and some breed which each other. They then Label the offspring "field collected" and sell them at a cheap price. Since they know they wont get much money from a hybrid.

The reticulated pattern on the legs, the 3 spots on the head, and the overwhelming amount of black looks just like a D. Alanis. The only thing different, is the light blue color which could have come from a Powder Blue. 

Just my thoughts...


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## markpulawski

These guys buy from the local south Florida importers, these would be WC imports not mixed morph Tincs. Underground may breed some things but they sure don't breed dart frogs and like all stores, flippers or anyone that buys from importers some times you get good stuff and sometimes you don't but this comment would be more directed to health than anything else. Sometimes the most experienced person could not save an import and sometimes they come in so nice they look like they are CB. I have no doubt these are WC imports and since Alanis, PB and 2 or 3 other morphs have been brought in some what regularly for a few months now we are seeing those prices drop, the market for them is near saturated. The frog in question could be a different morph or a very black legged PB, they can be far more variable than you think. Gray legs, blue legs, some with lots of black and some with no black at all. WC Tincs have been very plentiful this year with several new morphs being imported, I think it would be safe to say this is not a hybrid.
I am going to south Florida this week, if I have time I will swing by their store and get a good look at what they, seeing them in person may make it easier to ID them.


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## Enlightened Rogue

No way is that a Powder Blue.

*EDIT- I don`t think


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## frogparty

markpulawski said:


> These guys buy from the local south Florida importers, these would be WC imports not mixed morph Tincs. Underground may breed some things but they sure don't breed dart frogs and like all stores, flippers or anyone that buys from importers some times you get good stuff and sometimes you don't but this comment would be more directed to health than anything else. Sometimes the most experienced person could not save an import and sometimes they come in so nice they look like they are CB. I have no doubt these are WC imports and since Alanis, PB and 2 or 3 other morphs have been brought in some what regularly for a few months now we are seeing those prices drop, the market for them is near saturated. The frog in question could be a different morph or a very black legged PB, they can be far more variable than you think. Gray legs, blue legs, some with lots of black and some with no black at all. WC Tincs have been very plentiful this year with several new morphs being imported, I think it would be safe to say this is not a hybrid.
> I am going to south Florida this week, if I have time I will swing by their store and get a good look at what they, seeing them in person may make it easier to ID them.


I bet these guys buy from whomever will sell cheap enough. I dont think you can make the assumption that they ONLY buy from the Florida folks. Im still making the bet that these are from DFW.


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## Kudaria

frogparty said:


> its being sold through underground reptiles. They are SAYING field collected... but I urge you to check out their rep on faunaclassifieds.com before you decide to believe them or not.
> 
> 
> I also know that all they do is flip animals......so I wouldnt be surprised if they are just middle manning the crap out of DFW's frogs.
> 
> 
> 
> AND... when was the last time you saw a WC tinc go for $50 recently?


Ok I've seen this term several times, what is flipping an animal as I'm assuming they aren't turning them over. Are you meaning buy from someone for a low price and then immediately try to sell for higher?


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## frogparty

no. I mean putting them on a little see- saw type contraption, and rapidly launching them in an off axis plane to try to make them do flips. 




Sorry, being a smart ass..... yes thats exactly what I mean


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## markpulawski

frogparty said:


> I bet these guys buy from whomever will sell cheap enough. I dont think you can make the assumption that they ONLY buy from the Florida folks. Im still making the bet that these are from DFW.


Yes but these guys go to the importers and buy hundreds of $$ worth of all kinds of animals for their shops, any kind of reptile, amphibian, crabs etc, kind of a one stop or 2 stop shop for them to fill out most of their inventory requirements. I just don't see them shipping in darts from another supplier when WC imports are hand carried to their store and already at reasonable prices. Add in the fact they only carry what is also commonly imported (frog wise that is) and it becomes a pretty strong argument that these are WC imports. They do list CB animals in a separate ad, knowing what 2 or 3 good frog producers wholesale at would make me think these are also produced here in Florida. Some bigger breeders you will never see ads from but they produce a lot of frogs and sell at DFW prices.
There certainly is a chance these guys are buying or end up buying some frogs from DFW but it is very unlikely they would sell them as WC imports.


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## frogparty

UNLESS.... The frogs are being purposefully misrepresented as to their origin to hide the fact that they are indeed hybrids. 

Underground may actually think that they are WC

NOW it's conspiracy theory time, I know.


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## Michael Shrom

My guess is w.c. genetic diversity. You guys get to excited. (Please don't beat me up.)


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## frogparty

what do you know newt hugger?!

LOL. You may be right......but the timing of these ads popping up, and the fact that these animals look NOTHING like the population they claim to be, leads me to be EXTREMELY suspicious. 

These frogs LOOK like hybrids, they dont LOOK like any population Ive ever seen. 
lIKE i SAID, MAYBE ITS CONSPIRACY THEORY STUFF... but I sure as hell wouldnt buy these frogs.


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## braydens

there goes the internet getting angry again.


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## hypostatic

frogparty said:


> what do you know newt hugger?!


!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol


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## Tricolor

Maybe its a new tinc morph. Lets see what Mark says if he checks them out in person. Maybe he can get more info on them. I know Im paranoid as well with dfc around.


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## frogparty

I sincerely hope Michael knows Im just pulling his laterally compressed tail.


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## theroc1217

I know about DFW, what's the deal with DFC?


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## Michael Shrom

frogparty said:


> I sincerely hope Michael knows Im just pulling his laterally compressed tail.


I know it BUT.

I would guess that I have bred more powder blue tinctorius than anyone who has posted to this thread. Their is a lot of variety in the patterns of most tinctorious types. Just because it doesn't look like something you kids have seen before doesn't mean it is a crossbreed.


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## Tricolor

sorry meant dfw. Kids ive been breeding frogs since 92.


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## EricIvins

Those are wild caught Powder Blues. They are variable people....


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## Toxic

Tricolor said:


> Maybe its a new tinc morph. Lets see what Mark says if he checks them out in person. Maybe he can get more info on them. I know Im paranoid as well with dfc around.


It is possible that they are a new tinc; However, they are being labeled as powder blues Which, IMO, they are clearly not.

If i would have started this thread by saying. "ID this frog for me" and i showed a pic of the frog in question. Would people have said Powder blue?


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## Toxic

EricIvins said:


> Those are wild caught Powder Blues. They are variable people....


Yes, those are WC, but they still resemble the CB Powder blues. The frog in question does not.


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## Toxic

How can we trust Underground Reptiles? Just because they know about reptiles, does not mean they know anything about dart frogs. Or maybe they do know that it's a Hybrid and are selling it at such a cheap price to make a quick buck. When was the last time you saw a wc powder blue being sold for $50? if you look at the wc prices, you will see that they are ~$100 each and actually look like powder blues.


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## frogparty

Toxic said:


> How can we trust Underground Reptiles? Just because they know about reptiles, does not mean they know anything about dart frogs. Or maybe they do know that it's a Hybrid and are selling it at such a cheap price to make a quick buck. When was the last time you saw a wc powder blue being sold for $50? if you look at the wc prices, you will see that they are ~$100 each and actually look like powder blues.


yup. I was trying to make the same argument at the top of this thread
ESPECIALLY since theyve been caught knowingly misrepresenting animals they sell before


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## Alanis1221

I own alanis and powder blues... These are definitely hybrids!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## edwardsatc

Alanis1221 said:


> I own alanis and powder blues... These are definitely hybrids!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Could it be hybrid? Sure. Saying it is definitely a hybrid from a single photo is pushing it a bit too far ...

It's also entirely possible that the frog in the photo came in with the Suriname shipment and someone just lumped it in with the powder blues because that's what it looked like the most.


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## frogparty

This frog looks entirely unlike any recognizable frog in the hobby, all phenotypic traits are " muddled" kind of like an Alanis, not much like a powder blue. Kind of like a.....cross. Guess we can t really call it a hybrid, its a line cross. 

Look at the WC powder blues pictured above. While there is variation, its all variation within a theme. Easily recognized as variants within one population. Do you see ANY of those phenotype markers on the frog in question? I sure as hell do not. I think the legs are the best marker here. The group of WC powder blues all have leg pattern variation, but the variation is all based around a central theme, with larger or smaller spots being expressed. 

Is it a new morph? unlikely. New morph tincs are going for way more than $50


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## edwardsatc

frogparty said:


> This frog *looks entirely unlike any recognizable frog in the hobby*, all phenotypic traits are " muddled" kind of like an Alanis, not much like a powder blue. Kind of like a.....cross. Guess we can t really call it a hybrid, its a line cross.
> 
> Look at the WC powder blues pictured above. While there is variation, its all variation within a theme. Easily recognized as variants within one population. Do you see ANY of those phenotype markers on the frog in question? I sure as hell do not. I think the legs are the best marker here. The group of WC powder blues all have leg pattern variation, but the variation is all based around a central theme, with larger or smaller spots being expressed.
> 
> Is it a new morph? unlikely. New morph tincs are going for way more than $50


Not of any morph in the hobby ... but if it truly is wild caught then who knows? That's why I suggested that it may have just been accidentally mixed in with the powder blue imports.

Hell, I have no idea what it is and I have my suspicions. I just wanted to point out that we cannot definitively say what it is and there are other explanations that are equally plausible.

Other plausible explanations could be that it's a naturally occurring intergrade or that this group of frogs was collected along a naturally occurring gradient or that it was just a random mutation within the population. Are those explanations probable? No less than any other explanation given here so far.


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## hypostatic

I think it all really boils down to one thing really: is the seller reputable enough so that you can trust that it's selling what it says it's selling?

A lot of morphs look similar, and colors change according to the lighting, and specific locales can be variable in appearance.


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## bsr8129

Alanis1221 said:


> I own alanis and powder blues... These are definitely hybrids!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How can you say that unless you created it, well??!!!!!


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## frogparty

hypostatic said:


> I think it all really boils down to one thing really: is the seller reputable enough so that you can trust that it's selling what it says it's selling?
> 
> A lot of morphs look similar, and colors change according to the lighting, and specific locales can be variable in appearance.


Good point. Personally, I dont trust the company, I dont know the source, I wont buy. 
I would steer anyone that personally asked me about this company to do the same thing


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## Alanis1221

Hahaha! Reasonable suspicion! But what I meant by definitely is those frogs look a lot like an Alanis but a lot like a powder blue! If I had seen them without knowing what they were I would have thought P.B./Alanis


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## BlackFrogExotics

Imo. It looks like my alanis just with blue and not the yellow and white. This could just be a color variant in an alanis or inferalanis that has been labeled powder blue simply because of the blue coloring in the legs. 

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## Toxic

It appears Underground reptiles has removed their frog section on their website. Hmm... What a coincidence that they do that shortly after this thread was started. I contacted them as a "customer" asking for more info on the frog and they refuse to answer my emails. Hmm... Somethings not right here...


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## BlackFrogExotics

Toxic said:


> It appears Underground reptiles has removed their frog section on their website. Hmm... What a coincidence that they do that shortly after this thread was started. I contacted them as a "customer" asking for more info on the frog and they refuse to answer my emails. Hmm... Somethings not right here...


I agree toxic. If there's nothing to hide then they shouldn't mind the question. 

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## Michael Shrom

markpulawski said:


> These guys buy from the local south Florida importers, these would be WC imports not mixed morph Tincs.
> I am going to south Florida this week, if I have time I will swing by their store and get a good look at what they, seeing them in person may make it easier to ID them.


Did you go to Underground? If so what did you find out? 

I've purchased from them in the past with mixed results. That is what I expect when purchasing w.c. At cheaper prices I purchase a few extra and it usually works out.


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## frogparty

Last time someone called them out on misrepresented animals they pulled that animal off their site too.

No explanation, or apologies given.... Just pulled the product in question


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## BlackFrogExotics

frogparty said:


> Last time someone called them out on misrepresented animals they pulled that animal off their site too.
> 
> No explanation, or apologies given.... Just pulled the product in question


Thats bad buisness you ask me. 

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