# Nano terrarium



## broski2082 (Jun 9, 2016)

what frog species can I healthily cna comfortably (for the frog) can I keep in a 8" (20 cm) by 8" (20 cm) by 12" (30 cm) (LxDxH)terrarium? And if this is too small for a frog, what other animal/bug do you know of that could be housed in this?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G928A using Tapatalk


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Yeah, probably too small for a frog. Try a ghost mantid maybe.


----------



## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

Emperor scorpion


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

A single Geosesarma crab might do well also, with the right accommodations.


----------



## ChillerVB (Mar 31, 2016)

I am also curious what species of amphibians/reptiles/crusteceans can be housed in small conditions.

and to answer the question, Bumblebee frogs!


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

ChillerVB said:


> I am also curious what species of amphibians/reptiles/crusteceans can be housed in small conditions.
> 
> and to answer the question, Bumblebee frogs!


Do you mean Leucs?
If so you're wrong, very wrong. You should really do research before spreading such false information. 

Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note4 using Tapatalk


----------



## 9darlingcalvi (Oct 11, 2014)

He/she means bumblebee toads if I am not mistaken


----------



## thumbnail (Sep 18, 2005)

Successfully bred reticulata for many years in similar sized vivs a long time ago but have shifted to 12x12x18 or larger for even my smallest thumbs. The biggest reason is sites for broms or film canisters which in something the size your wanting would be a bit small in the long run. I used water picks mainly in the smaller vivs and did not even try to use broms in such a small space. Plants I also used consisted of mainly smaller vining plants such as creeping fig and mini orchids. If you actually do go with a smaller viv, hiding spots are must and smaller pieces of driftwood and cork to reduce stress are key. Also covering all the side walls except the front is a must to give extra cover for the frogs.


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

9darlingcalvi said:


> He/she means bumblebee toads if I am not mistaken


Even still I don't think it will work. Nano tanks just simple aren't for herps.


----------



## ChillerVB (Mar 31, 2016)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Even still I don't think it will work. Nano tanks just simple aren't for herps.


first of all, i meant bumblebee toads, and yeah it would work. for one or maybe two. chill out before you start accusing people bud...


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

ChillerVB said:


> first of all, i meant bumblebee toads, and yeah it would work. for one or maybe two. chill out before you start accusing people bud...


Toads aren't frogs. No it will not work. Nano tanks aren't for herps. In order to form an accusation there has to be something to accuse somebody of and I wasn't accusing anybody of anything.
Now if you meant that I assumed you were talking about Leucs then that would make more sense.
If you think that any herp can go in a nano tank you need to do more research because you're very wrong. 
Herps do not being in nano setups.




Sent from my Samsung GALAXY Note4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

Actually, toads are consitered frogs. 
Kingdom- Animalia
Phylum- chordata
Class- Amphibia
Order- Anura
then only family, genus, and species differ between frogs and toads.

"One of the most common questions is, "What is the difference between Frogs and Toads?"

Most are surprised to hear that all Toads actually are Frogs!"
-allaboutfrogs.org

Also, this may be a dumb question that gets into business and industry, but what was the point of exo terra making the nano if it could not be used? Many arthropods would be comfortable in one, and probably many ranitomeya froglets


Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Fingolfin said:


> Actually, toads are consitered frogs.
> Kingdom- Animalia
> Phylum- chordata
> Class- Amphibia
> ...


Yeah yeah but the member said frogs not toads so one would think they meant Leucomelas 
Bumble Bee Toads get just as big as Leucs so still my statement applies. 
There just isn't enough floor space. 

Yeah it could be used as a grow out for thumbnail froglets but not as a permanent home.
I said herps which would be reptiles and amphibians 
These nano tanks are indeed most likely made for insects and arthropods like you said. Although I wouldn't put a terrestrial tarantula in them because they need more substrate (for burrowing) than the bottom glass would allow and though it might work for an arboreal species. I think it would still be too small for even adult Tarantula species but would work up until they became sub-adults. 
I also keep tarantulas


----------



## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

Ah, I get your point now

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

One of the things I find rather confusing, is how often I see people commenting on how smaller tanks are ok for smaller frogs, just because the frogs are small.
Seems people equate their smaller body size to not needing much space. 
I know these frogs don't need a zoo exhibit to survive or even thrive,......but an 8x8? Or even 12x12? By the time you cram a piece of wood a couple broms in there, it's hardly big enough to house a few insects, in my opinion.
Unless these frogs spend their entire lives in a 4" radius, next to one brom, in the wild, I think it's a little cruel to stick any frog in a tank that small. I don't care how small the frog itself is.
And just because they make them, doesn't mean they are adequate or justified for anything. They make them because people will buy them and they will make money. That's about all there is to it. They make all kinds of things in the pet industry that are in no way, shape or form, healthy or adequate for the pets we own. But people gobble the stuff up and can't spend their money fast enough on the junk. I could go into any chain pet store and eliminate 90% of their inventory and the animal world would be no worse for wear. All gimmicky, consumer garbage. But, pet owners seem to be easy prey. That's a whole different topic. All I can say is I'm in the wrong business. 
Maybe I'm wrong and it's not necessary for the smaller frogs, but I would think that you would actually want a larger tank, so you could fill it with more of the habitat features that they utilize in the wild. Just like when you have the larger, more terrestrial frogs, you wouldn't want to fill 70% of the volume and footprint with background, branches, broms, decorations, etc. 
I see a lot of tanks that are more about the display than the habitat and too many people that get tiny tanks before deciding on a species and then asking what they can shoehorn into it. They're living creatures, not decorations.
Always decide what animal you want to keep and then figure out what it needs. 
Then buy/build the enclosure accordingly. Too many, "hey someone gave me this tank, I found this at a garage sale, I bought this on sale at petco"............."what can I put in it??"
Nope. Backwards. I don't go buy a dog because someone gave me a leash and dog bowl. I don't buy a scratching post and litter box from a garage sale and then ask what kind of cat I should get to go with it. 
Etc.
My advice is put an insect in that tank, or make a one of those little fairy gardens. Or both. I actually think those little gardens are kinda cool. If you want frogs, etc, figure out what species you would like and then research and figure out what that species will need and what size enclosure is best for that species and number of animals......and will still be an adequate size AFTER its filled with background, substrate, plants, wood, decorations, water feature, etc.


----------



## ChillerVB (Mar 31, 2016)

HEY GUYS LETS CHECK JOSHS FROGS ON BUMBLEBEE TOADS. 

Housing bumble bee toads can be very simple. These anurans do not require much space, as they really will not utilize it. Something the size of a large critter keeper can house 1-2 adults - Care Guide for Bumblebee Toads

Dimensions of this critter keeper (floor space) 14-1/2-inch large by 8-3/4-inch width 

If that can hold one to two im sure 8 by 8 can hold one.


----------



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Ask yourself:

Would you be PROUD of putting two frogs/toads into a critter keeper or nano viv?

Would you consider that size and accommodation to be wonderful, great, excellent?

Would you sit back and say 'best effort', good choice or well done?



I doubt it.


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Josh's frogs is just one opinion, Plus a 14' x8' still significanlty larger than an 8'x 8'. I agree with Bluper that these tanks may be ok as a growout viv.


----------



## Andrew Lee (Jan 21, 2014)

It might be an okay grow out for fresh OOTW froglets. But only 1 at max I would say and only keep it in there until you have a better grow out tank for it. I used mine for a baby praying mantis I found before releasing it after it had grown an inch on ffs!


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

Unfortunately, we can't actually ask the animals what they prefer and what makes them feel content and healthy. 
Can an animal be kept alive in a minimal enclosure? Well, yeah.
We can even keep humans alive, in prison cells. Those are pretty damn small and some humans are kept alive for decades in them.
I suppose that if certain species of small animals/frogs spend their entire natural life in one tiny spot, in the wild, they probably wouldn't mind being kept in a small enclosure, if all their needs are met. 
I just always assume that if you ask the animal, they would probably say they wouldn't mind a little extra room to hop around, adjust their body temp, explore, chase their mate around, pick a breeding spot, hunt, etc.
But we can't ask them and they can't tell us. Truth is, they will deal with and find a way to survive in whatever we impose on them. 
So, yeah,.....you can keep a lot of different dart frogs alive in an 8x8x12.


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I've never looked up bumble bee toads. Do they spend their life in a 4" radius in the wild?
Seriously, I don't know. If they do, then go for it.


----------



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

ChillerVB said:


> HEY GUYS LETS CHECK JOSHS FROGS ON BUMBLEBEE TOADS.
> 
> Housing bumble bee toads can be very simple. These anurans do not require much space, as they really will not utilize it. Something the size of a large critter keeper can house 1-2 adults - Care Guide for Bumblebee Toads
> 
> ...


Josh's Frogs is not the end-all-be-all.

*[lots removed here as it is Vendor Feedback, both positive and negative, for various vendors] * -- DB Moderators

You really need to refer to my advice for beginners thread because you're getting really testy and you're being combative and you're not wanting to listen to people who have been around for a while. 
Sure I might not be surpreme expert but I know when habitats won't suffice.
I've been given crap about anthropomorphizing but I hold herps and animals in a higher regard than I do humans. 
I've even been known to do better for my animals than I even do for myself. 

So if you think it's okay to go with the bare minimal and restrict the habitat of the animal you're caring for then maybe this isn't for you. 
Not trying to sound like an elitist I'm just very compassionate and passionate about animals.
So tired of people stuffing them in small enclosures just to have something to gawk at. They deserve better. 
If someone can't afford better than they should consider another hobby. 
Don't let me calling it a hobby not hold much weight it's just a term but this is more than a hobby it's a commitment, a passion. Not something to do in your spare time or piddle with whenever you feel like it.
It's also an investment. 
I waited five years to finally get some dart frogs because I wanted to make sure that I was financially stable and could give them everything they needed I dropped $1,000 or more on my first vivarium that would eventually house dart frogs.
Sure people don't have to spend that much I could afford it because I got a settlement. Though the price you're going to pay for a nano tank you can get an aquarium and convert it cheaper,
That's what I did. I bought a 40-gallon breeder put it on its side and added some doors and everything. Just the tank alone with the conversion costed me about $60-$70. Getting a vivarium from Exo Terra or something this size would cost me about $200.

Idk if you've seen my paludarium but here it is

















You can do great things with a little budget if done correctly. It gave me so much more to spend in the hardscaping, plants, etc.

Anyways sorry for the rant but you need to chill man and just listen to people and have more compassion to give them a bigger home. Or not, the choice is yours but if you decide not to than it would be best not to advise others to do the same and think people aren't gonna say something to you.


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

thumbnail said:


> Successfully bred reticulata for many years in similar sized vivs a long time ago but have shifted to 12x12x18 or larger for even my smallest thumbs. The biggest reason is sites for broms or film canisters which in something the size your wanting would be a bit small in the long run. I used water picks mainly in the smaller vivs and did not even try to use broms in such a small space. Plants I also used consisted of mainly smaller vining plants such as creeping fig and mini orchids. If you actually do go with a smaller viv, hiding spots are must and smaller pieces of driftwood and cork to reduce stress are key. Also covering all the side walls except the front is a must to give extra cover for the frogs.


Is it harder, easier or about the same, as far as maintaining steady temps/humidity in the really small enclosures, compared to larger ones?


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Blueper said:


> Is it harder, easier or about the same, as far as maintaining steady temps/humidity in the really small enclosures, compared to larger ones?


Just like with nano reef tanks, getting the environmental parameters correct is much more difficult in a mini viv. There will be no opportunity for the animal to thermoregulate by moving to a different area should the temperatures spike/drop, or the substrate gets saturated, or the ventilation becomes insufficient in one way or another.


----------



## Blueper (Feb 27, 2016)

I would have assumed as much.
Just wasn't sure because I've never tried a tiny enclosure.
My biggest concern with a tiny enclosure is the inability for the animal to move around and make itself comfortable. Like you said, if it's too humid, to hot, to bright, too stuffy, whatever.
Hey, I'm too hot,.......let me move over 2". Oh look, it's exactly the same.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

As stated above, I would not recommend housing a frog in an 8x8x12 nano terrarium - it's just too small. The critter keeper included in the Josh's Frogs Bumble Bee Toad kit is sufficient for 1-2 bumble bee toads, and has nearly twice the floor space of an 8x8x12. That does not mean it's the end all, be all enclosure (one reason we offer larger kits for the species. See : Bumble Bee Toad Complete Kit (18x18x12) | Josh's Frogs). That kit is really intended as a "jumping off" point, and it serves it's purpose quite well.

We keep bumble bee toads in a simple setup, as it allows for easier monitoring of the frogs, and a more typical vivarium setup for these toads as used for dart frogs would quickly kill bumble bee toads (where do you think the 20-30,000 a year that came in went?). It's possible to keep them with live plants, but it's a bit more difficult to meet the needs of plants and toads in an enclosure than in the humid, jungle-like confines of a dart frog enclosure. Many frog keepers (aka non-dart keepers - gasp!) prefer not to house their animals in vivaria, or utilize live plants. While I certainly enjoy the appearance of a thriving vivarium and don't mind the extra work such a setup takes, we want to make sure we carry the equipment people need to keep their pets happy and healthy. 

Bumble bee toads are much smaller than leucs - an adult female is easily 1/2 to 1/3 the weight of a leucomelas. They also have very different habits than dart frogs, as they are very sedentary and not very active except when it comes to eating and breeding! We've produced thousands of these over the past several years, and know the species quite well. As far as I am aware, we've produced more of these guys in the US than any other hobbyist or business. I currently have over 150 adults at our facility, and our care sheets, guides, and videos have enabled hundreds of frog keepers to successfully keep or breed this species. I expect to produce F3s this year. Our ultimate goal is to produce enough of these guys in a way that makes it uneconomical for future wild caughts to be imported in significant numbers - conservation via commercialization.

Brandon, should you ever find yourself in Owosso, Michigan, feel free to drop us a line and schedule a facility tour. I think you'll find that your preconceived notions about Josh's Frogs are baseless. We are a business (have to make that house payment somehow!), but we're hobbyists at heart.

Since DB was sold I don't frequent the site - I posted here at the request of others. If anyone would like to contact me, please do so via [email protected]. Frog on!


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

We've left Brandon's post alone - for the moment.

It contains way too much of what is considered Vendor Feedback - and it will likely be pruned in the near future.

In no way am I beholden to Josh's Frogs - for ANY reason - they do not deserve the baseless criticism that the post contains.

s


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Not to mention, one of the listed "recommended" vendors has been removed from this site for multiple cases of scamming members out of frogs and supplies. 



Scott said:


> We've left Brandon's post alone - for the moment.
> 
> It contains way too much of what is considered Vendor Feedback - and it will likely be pruned in the near future.
> 
> ...


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Brandon's post has been edited.

We're advising everyone to stick to the point - and let's not bash or overly praise any vendors who really have NOTHING to do with the topic.

s


----------

