# Noob here with some questions.



## Guest (Aug 4, 2006)

I've been in the aquarium hobby for about 12 years, and have been wanting to make the change over to vivariums for a while now. I've been doing my research and am working on plans for the tank. The tank I would like to use is a custom made acrylic tank that measures 60"wide, 12"tall, and 12" deep. Would this be a good tank to use? Once I get the plans done I am going to get plants in there and the backround, substrate etc and let it run for ATLEAST 2 months before adding ANY frogs. I would like to make a foam backround, and have some sort of water feature in the tank as well. I'll post some pics of the tank currently in a little bit. Any suggestions on plants that stay smaller, or anything I should know? I really appreciate any and all help you guys give me. Thanks

Adam (the noob)


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2006)

Here is a pic of the tank. 5ft left to right, 1foot deep, 1 foot tall.










I'm trying to think of a way to make a little "pond" shallow at the base so they can't drown or anything, but just soak. I think I just got something ....this planning part is fun! 

Adam


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Welcome to Dendroboard Adam, That’s a neat tank. I would suggest that it is too low to make a good viv though. I’m not saying you can’t do it, but by the time you add a false bottom or drainage layer and then a substrate layer you are going to be down to something like 8” of workable space. One good idea is to go out and purchase a 10 gallon tank and work it up into a viv. This will really drive home the idea that you need a higher tank. It will also teach you a lot about viv construction. It’s great to do lots of research, but without experience you will definitely run into problems that you didn’t think of. Low tanks are certainly possible, but higher ones are easier to work with. It’s also easier to create a nice looking tank with extra height.


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2006)

Thanks for the info....I didn't even think about the false bottom taking up the extra room etc. I'm moving the fish from this tank to my other tank, so I'll have this tank empty anyway. A free tank to mess around with is better than nothing, and even if this doesn't work, I'll have some experience. Like I said, I just won't even mess with frogs in this one, but try some new ideas out and go from there. I agree with you that research is great but hands on is needed too, but I always do as much research as possible before "getting my hands wet" for the sake of my animals, not necessarily myself. I'll work on plans and design and let you know how it comes along.

Adam


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Pictures Pictures Pictures!


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'll second what Chris said, height is one of those things you don't want to give up in a tank once you have it. It's alot easier to build a really nice looking tank that's tallk than one that's wide. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's alot easier. I usually find it hard to work with anything that's shorter than 18", and really prefer tanks that are 24"+ tall. There are just more choices for plants, wood, layout, everything really.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

*cough* VERTICAL! *cough*

12 x 12 would be kinda tight, but wouldn't it be cool? What kinda lighting would work? Im blank on that, except maybe a metal halide.

ps - if your looing for a new tank, petco is having a buck per gallon sale from 8/20 to 8/26 (excludes kits, combos, bowfronts) from 20-55g. This includes the 33 ocianic cubes ($33), 42 stretch hex ($42), etc . . . i work there, its a secret! im serious! im pretty sure its nationwide, i know its at least going on in Texas.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

One idea would be to use only plants that like wet feet. That way you wouldn’t need a drainage layer. I would stay away from sand and grave, and use small rocks. This would allow you to flush out some of the muck from time to time. Drill an overflow about an inch form the bottom of the back pane of glass, and all you’ll have to do is add a large volume of water once in a while.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

being a fish keeper myself I would reccommend using aquatic plants.Most have to rise above the surface to survive anyways.I've been interested in using flourite as a substrate with coco fiber or moss as a top layer.Java ferns, crypts and anubias would do nice in a low level setup.They grow slow and would rarely get over 8 inches(to exclude some of the bigger anubias).Dwarf mondo grass is another option.Its more of a marshland than a rainforest terrian but the humidity and temp would be the same.


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## topaz017 (Jul 30, 2006)

Now, I am new to all this.. but couldn't hey say.. put down the egg crate, with like 1/2 inch or maybe even no space, and drill a hole to drain back down into a reservoir? Then a pump to put it back into the tank via a water wall or such? He hasnt got the room for a false bottom, how about another 10g tank under it thats his false... I donno.. bottom?


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*hey!*

i think it would be kinda neat for a tank. i agree with chris about starting with a 10 gallon. it teaches you alot, without breaking the bank. 

i personally would love that tank- i'd do ALOT of java moss, and low growing plants. java fern would be one. you could do some really neat driftwood designs in there. i'd do either a group of terreblis or a group of bi-colors- they are super bold


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

A few people have mentioned the use of Java fern. It has been my experience that this plant really needs high humidity. It also grows so slowly that it would take forever to get a reasonable amount of cover in the vivarium. Personally, I wouldn’t plan on having this plant be a centerpiece in the vivarium. It just isn’t easy enough to grow above the water line.


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I would suggest some crytocorynes.








They grow slow but then agian I thnk its a plus.I wouldn't like the hassle of pruning plants back on a regular basis.Java moss is a good choice(or any moss for that fact but they can take over.Maybe try some of the smaller anubias,Fittonia,dwarf mondo grass,or a terrestrial jewel orchid.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2006)

i think the low growing aquatics is the way to go. get you some nice stones to place in there for hard scape and make it like a 6' long river bed. 

if you have a drain at on end and the return at another (assuming you use a sump) you could even have a nice left to right flow for your river. 

i much prefer taller tanks (and wider ones too), but dont waste the tank. if you can make something nice out of this, youll be set when you have a lot of space to work with.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

OK....I got some GREAT ideas(at least I think I do). I sure hope I do, because I started work on it today  I don't have my camera(lost currently) so all I can do is do my best to describe it. I'm going to start a journal on it, and will have pics up in the next day or so when my friend comes over and brings his camera for me. Here is a preview of what will be said in my opening journal. My idea for making and pond, flowing river/stream, AND a waterfall. Not using a flase bottom either...sound interesting? Sound impossible or stupid? Please check the journal and let me know what you think after reading. Thanks

Adam


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

ill be waiting for r the journal, but i definatly hope its possible. im building a tank right now with a waterfall, stream, and pond, with no false bottom.... :lol:


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Be forewarned, If you are building a running water feature without a false bottom, you should not use any type of soil. I can just about guarantee that any soil used in this type of setup will become saturated. It is almost impossible to build a running water feature that doesn’t leak. Believe me, it’s been tried many many times. It doesn’t work. You can certainly have a running water feature and a gravel or small stone substrate. Soil is just not a good idea.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

I think I have a solution for that as well grassy. Here is the link to the journal.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18882

Adam


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

The substrate will be saturated. I guarantee it. It doesn’t take much to saturate the substrate. A small drop here and there from the waterfall, and in a week’s time you have muck for substrate.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I don’t mean to be so negative, but I’ve been there. It’s not worth all the effort to end up with anaerobic mud. In my case it took over a month for the substrate to become saturated but once this had happened there was nothing I could do to fix the problem. I’ve seen it happen over and over on this board. Many times the person doesn’t listen to what more experienced hobbyists say and they end up with mud. Go ahead and try it, but if you build a running water feature without proper drainage (a false bottom or deep gravel layer), and you use soil (in your case frog bedding), you will end up with smelly muck.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

Please don't think that I am not listening to you...I always want to hear from the experienced hobbyist, so I can learn from them however I have been told that this tank would be difficult for a viv in the first place, so I am trying to think of ways to make it work. As I said before, there won't be any frogs in here for a long time, so I am not too worried if it fails because this is just a trial. I'm also trying to do things that havn't been done before(that I know of) or to try to better a design. Just stick with me, and see how it goes. If you don't try something, you'll never know if it would have worked or not.

Adam


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

ill be following along with the journal.

but i must say i agree with Chris almost whole heartedly. if you use a soil substrate, its going to get wet. this *IS* a fact. the things ive done to get around this (i just think water features make good vivs great, and try to incorporate them no matter the trouble) is choose a substrate that will drain really well, and use plants that can handle wet conditions all the time. there are a few plants that work out in this condition, but it really limits you on selection.

if you look at it as trial and error, you will come out well no matter the what. just make sure you test out your tank long term before adding frogs. one point that Chris makes, but doesnt drive home is the ability for soil to saturate itself. a few drops here and there (which are inevitable) get a little section of soil wet. that soil gets the soil next to it wet and so on until you have a soggy mess. a soggy mess after a few months turns into a nasty smelly bacteria trap. the kicker is, the problem my be undetectable or "not bad enough to worry about" at first, but it really is a serious problem for a lor of plants, and over time becomes a hazard to any animals's health also. ill say again, make sure you test it out long term before adding any animals.

OMT, the tank im currently working on with a waterfall, stream and pond will be all gravel and leaf littler substrate. there will be no soil at all.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Adam,

Again, I didn’t want to be overly negative, and as far as darts go I’m not all that experienced. I have built a few vivs and I’ve learned something every time I’ve built one. I think that some of the negative comments stem from the cost of your experiment. With such a long tank, everything is going to cost more. I’ll try to bite my tongue about the substrate from here on out.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

Please, don't edit yourself...this is a public forum, I'm asking for guidance, and if it comes negatively....that's what I asked for. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm going to use gravel for the bottom 1" or so, with the bedding above it. I will also cut a "drain" in the bottom of the tank so I can drain it if need be. What I am going to do is use my cable heater down in the substrate(where it will be dry) which will keep the substrate warm and prevent mold or anything from growing. That is my best option, as far as keeping away from disaster. The river is going to be deep enough that the flow of water will be contained and not spill over. Uh...I need to get pics so you guys can actually see what I am doing. Till then, keep saying what you think.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

O.K. You asked for it :wink: . 

Skip the cable heat. The frogs aren’t going to appreciate the extra warmth. 

Use a different soil substrate. Frog bedding (coco fiber) scavenges water. Maybe a hardwood mulch/orchid mix would be better.

Instead of 1” of gravel under your soil, why not use LECA with a weed guard or screen cover?

I still can’t see how you are going to keep the flowing water out of your substrate. It finds a way in :? .


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

i would definatly like to see a pic to see how the water is going to be contained. i dont think its possible, and like stated above it doesnt take much to create a big disaster.

1" of gravel?! most people reccomend that you keep the soil 1-2" above the waterline, when using gravel drainage. if you only have 1" of gravel total, you are allready at the bear minimum as soon as any water gets in there. you will need to drain the tank almost after every misting, if this is the case. in most cases (even without water features) the drainage layer is about 3-4", so you can have 1" or so water in there without getting up to your soil. once you put a decent amount of soil on top of that 1-2" minimum, you end up with a 4-6 thick substrate. you dont really have the room in a 12" tall tank to provide that, which really brings me back to Chris's reccomendation. im going to go ahead and say it also, in this tank, ditch the soil.


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

Have you ever used a heater cable? I was using the one I have (100 watt) and when used in my aquarium, it kept the water as warm as needed, but the substrate was ONLY warm where the cable was and 1/2" deep, not the surface. The cable should just keep the lower portion of the substrate warm, with the top few inches untouched. Here is a new option to make up for the no false bottom. I'll use the left over acrylic I have, and silicone them into place, creating a small slope to the center of the tank. In the center of the tank, I'll drill a 1" hole and put in a bulkhead. All I'll have to do is put a bucket underneath it, and let er rip which will drain any excess water in the substrate, without even messing with the full bodies of water. The Liner for the stream gets the water poured directl into it. The gravel will be on the sides of the river as well as in the river itself to help slow the flow (which is why it will be deep, to keep from any spillage. Like I said, it will be awesome if this works, but if it doesn't oh well...it's just a spare tank, and coming up with ideas, and making it is tons of fun...whether it works or not, it's hands on experience.

Adam


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

Just out of curiosity, why do you want the lower layers of the substrate warm?


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

I was going to try to keep it warm as a precaution. If some water does get in/down there, there should be less chance of mold to grow. If it is warm, the water should dissipate better, rather than sitting cool and damp for bacteria. Correct me if I'm wrong, I just thought that this could help against the bad.

Adam


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2006)

Nothin wrong with some mold in newly made vivs. Great for springtails and generally goes away on its own in a few weeks. Mold grew in my WTF cage, the air temps in there were around 80-85 during the day so I dont know if warmer temps would have an effect. It went away though.

Some plants can be negatively affected by mold but I cant remember which plants and what type of mold :?


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

What about flourite as a substrate? It could tackle all of the plant needs but I dont know if it has any adverse effect on frogs.You could use sand to allow delicate roots to grow and I agree with the orcihd bark as a top soil.Cypress mulch could withstand excess moisture.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2006)

Well, I tested the barriers for how well they hold water. I had only 2 minor minor leaks. They were both on the main pond enclosure. What I am going to do is drill a whole in the center of the tank. There is going to be a bulk head attatched to a ball valve. From each side, there is going to be a very low amount of great stuff, and it is going to be slanted towards the center of the tank with the top of the bulkhead in the bottom groove(basically a funel). gravel for 1" ontop of the great stuff, orchid bark on top of that, and then the bedding on top. Perfect drainage with no false bottom, and the great stuff will completly seal the two small leaks. What do you think?

Adam


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2006)

^ i would dap a little silicone on the leaks. GS is supposed to be water proof, but i havent had great luck with it 'sealing' water by itself.



froggerboy said:


> What about flourite as a substrate?


this came up in a recent thread. a friend of mine and i have been using florite in our susbstrate mix, and as a sole substrate for quite a while. the plants in those tanks are some of our best. KeroKero made a good point about flourite in another thread though, and i think the subject needs more research. she pointed out that there could be adverse effects on tadpoles, with the extra iron that flourite provides.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Great Stuff eventually leaks. I would seal the leaks with acrylic solvent right from the start.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> Great Stuff eventually leaks. I would seal the leaks with acrylic solvent right from the start.


It has all been sealed with acrylic sealer. Out of the 3 peices that were sealed into the tank to hold water....there were only 2 pinhead sized leaks(Not bad for the first time). I'm going to touch it up with a little more silicone, and then the GS will just cover it that and make the slope to the center in case any water does get in the land area, it will be taken out with ease.

Adam


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Silicone makes a pretty lame bond with acrylic. I would try to seal up your leaks with acrylic solvent. 

Your GS funnel is a cool Idea. I’m very interested in seeing how this works for you. It will have the advantage of reducing the overall weight or your set up. 

Now, lets see some pictures  .


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2006)

My camera is still MIA and I'm waiting on my friend to send me a few pics he snapped the other night, so I'll try and have em up tommorow at the latest. I used a silicone that was made for acrylic, so the seals will be fine, the only reason I have any leaks is because it is hard to get all of the sides. With the smaller tank, there is less room to work in, so I am prettyhappy with only 2 small leaks.

Adam


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## froggerboy (Jul 9, 2006)

I would agree with grassypeak about the silicone.I had a large acrylic tank that was bonded with silicone and eventually scaped it due to my inability to seal up the leaks that formed.Silicone was terrible for repairs.I wish I knew about the solvent back then.

I want to see pictures of the GS funnel bottom.I might steal that idea if it works.I have a tank with four inches of gravel and flat pieces of rock on top to prevent my soil from becoming oversaturated.Talk about massive weight!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Hummm… What is silicone that is made for acrylic? I haven’t heard of this before.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> Hummm… What is silicone that is made for acrylic? I haven’t heard of this before.


They have it at my home depot by the acrylic sheets. I *think* its made by GE.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

What is it called, and is it safe for frogs?


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2006)

I dont remember the exact title, something like Acrylic Silicone or Silicone for Acrylic. Dont know if its frogsafe or not. Package isnt like the other siliones, its all red I think. I have a really bad memory, I just remember giving it the once over


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

I think it starts with Lexan.... something. I have seen it and don't know if it is frog safe.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2006)

*PICTURE*

I used extreme repair by titelok. It is aquarium safe, and is used for plastics etc. All I did was sand a tiny bit where the new peices were going, so that it makes a great seal. We used the same stuff at the pet store I worked at and it worked for years with no problems. I have pics ready to be uploaded. I'll put one here, and then I'm going to start a construction journal for the stream, etc.










Adam


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## Guest (Aug 14, 2006)

i just read back through. i was the first one to make the silicone comment. normal silicone will definatly not doo well. i was thinking it was a glass tank, but just read back where it is acrylic. sorry for the confusion, but on a acrylic to acrylic situation, you should definatly use somehting designed for it. 

BTW, im very interested in this silicone for acrylic. it could really make life a lot easier if its frogs safe and available at Lowes.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

It would be really neat if it could make an good acrylic to glass bond.


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