# Can anyone see anything wrong with this frog?



## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

I have 3 green sips and this one isn't eating, and has lost weight, the other 2 are fine. I can't work out what's wrong, can anyone see any sign of illness?
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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

That frog appears to be emaciated to the point that it may die if you don't get it help.

The first thing I would go is get it separated from the rest of the frogs so that it doesn't have competition for food. 

Answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste -- please don't quote because that makes it hard to read the responses):

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Green sips 18 months old from private breeder.
Have been perfectly healthy until recently.

Daytime temp 20-23c nightime 18c measured using thermometer probe.

Arcadia jungle dawn led light, adds a small amount of heat to the vivarium.

80-99% humidity inside the vivarium depending on where I place the hygrometer probe (exo terra digital combo) mist morning and night with filtered water hand mister.

Euro style viv I'll post a photo at the end.

D.hydei and springtails main food source. I switched to uvb lighting recently so have been using the Arcadia range of supplements, but I'm worried this has had a negative effect on the frogs I've removed the uvb and I'm going back to repashy.

I handled him a few days ago because I thought he may have had something stuck in his mouth, obviously I rinsed my hands thoroughly before with just water.


2 other frogs in the same vivarium both ok.

Odd behaviour, I've noticed at times him opening his mouth randomly when not shedding, sitting with his head close to the ground and he comes flying out his hide when I spray in the morning.

This is one of the other frogs in the vivarium, it's a relatively new setup only a couple months, before that I kept them pretty much the same way except I never used uvb before and used repashy supplements.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I'm also convinced the issues are caused by the UVb and the use of incorrect supplements.. so good that you imediatly going to switch back to the correct supplements and regular lights. 

I'm quite interested though in why you made the switch in going from the best setup to the uv and arcadia supplements?

However, damage is done to the frogs (probably all) so I feel the best thing to do is reachout to a vet in order to make sure the frogs can recover.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I want to add that your humidity is also too high.
It should be ranging from 65-90% day/night


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Tijl said:


> I'm also convinced the issues are caused by the UVb and the use of incorrect supplements.. so good that you imediatly going to switch back to the correct supplements and regular lights.
> 
> I'm quite interested though in why you made the switch in going from the best setup to the uv and arcadia supplements?
> 
> However, damage is done to the frogs (probably all) so I feel the best thing to do is reachout to a vet in order to make sure the frogs can recover.


Tried uvb because I was convinced every animal should have uvb these days, wish I hadn't.


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Tijl said:


> I want to add that your humidity is also too high.
> It should be ranging from 65-90% day/night


Really? I didn't think you could have too much humidity with dart frogs, 65 sounds really low.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

creg said:


> Tried uvb because I was convinced every animal should have uvb these days, wish I hadn't.


What or who convinced you in that thinking that would be true?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

creg said:


> Really? I didn't think you could have too much humidity with dart frogs, 65 sounds really low.


You could not be more wrong. 
Frogs thermoregulate trough their skin, when exposed to high humidity levels they are nog able to..


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I can't see from the photos -- is the light sitting on glass, or on screen?


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I can't see from the photos -- is the light sitting on glass, or on screen?


Screen


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Tijl said:


> You could not be more wrong.
> Frogs thermoregulate trough their skin, when exposed to high humidity levels they are nog able to..


I never knew this, care guides and YouTube videos etc I've watched always said 80-100% humidity and it was bad if it dropped below this level.


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Tijl said:


> What or who convinced you in that thinking that would be true?


YouTube/Arcadia reptile, certain people who's videos I trusted that promote everything having uvb. Some shops won't even sell animals if they don't have uvb provided now. I fell for it.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

creg said:


> I never knew this, care guides and YouTube videos etc I've watched always said 80-100% humidity and it was bad if it dropped below this level.


That mostly very outdatet info. 
This is also the reason why people keep building 'paludariums' to house frogs in.. 
If you count all the frog lives lost by this common practice, you'd be very very shocked.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

creg said:


> YouTube/Arcadia reptile, certain people who's videos I trusted that promote everything having uvb. Some shops won't even sell animals if they don't have uvb provided now. I fell for it.


Pure marketing imo.. Products need to sell.
I'm not aware of many experienced and well preforming breeders/keepers that use them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

creg said:


> YouTube/Arcadia reptile, certain people who's videos I trusted that promote everything having uvb. Some shops won't even sell animals if they don't have uvb provided now. I fell for it.


Arcadia sells UVB lights. The National Beef Council says I should eat a steak at every meal, too.

Excessive UVB definitely causes frogs to fail to feed properly, and to hide. The mouth gaping is said to be linked to infections, or gastric prolapse, or STS (other conditions, too, probably). Exactly which supplements were you using, and how often were you using each of them, and how were you using them (dusting procedure, etc)?


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Thanks for the advice, I have raised the light bar off the mesh to increase air flow and will consider spraying only once a day instead of twice.


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Arcadia sells UVB lights. The National Beef Council says I should eat a steak at every meal, too.
> 
> Excessive UVB definitely causes frogs to fail to feed properly, and to hide. The mouth gaping is said to be linked to infections, or gastric prolapse, or STS (other conditions, too, probably). Exactly which supplements were you using, and how often were you using each of them, and how were you using them (dusting procedure, etc)?


I know but I thought Arcadia reptile were different to other companies. I was using Arcadia earth pro a, calcium +mg and d3 revitalise. I think it was about a month I did this for.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Beyond what has already been said, it sounds like you have 3 Tincs in the same tank. One seems to be skinny. I would suggest that one is being bullied - and should likely be removed from the enclosure.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

creg said:


> I know but I thought Arcadia reptile were different to other companies. I was using Arcadia earth pro a, calcium +mg and d3 revitalise. I think it was about a month I did this for.


Supplements for darts are simple: Repashy Calcium Plus every feeding. There are other options too, but this is just the gold standard.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

creg said:


> Thanks for the advice, I have raised the light bar off the mesh to increase air flow and will consider spraying only once a day instead of twice.


I would not lower the frequentie of misting, rather lower the amouth


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

What do you as a temporary setup? A plastic tub and just sphagnum moss and leaf litter?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

creg said:


> What do you as a temporary setup? A plastic tub and just sphagnum moss and leaf litter?


I almost never use spaghmoss since this tends to soak too easily.

In the past I used plastic (vebtilated) boxes with filtermats and some pinebark + lot's of leaflitter.
Now I have a large racksystem for offspring and 'quarantaine' 









🄵🅁🄾🄶🅂 🄰🄽🄳 🅅🄸🅅🄰🅁🄸🅄🄼🅂


Not seeing any images in this thread. Am I the only one? I think you are. Looks like the photos are imbedded and link to a sharing site, so likely a browser setting or extension is holding you up. Try a different browser.




www.dendroboard.com


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

Chris S said:


> Beyond what has already been said, it sounds like you have 3 Tincs in the same tank. One seems to be skinny. I would suggest that one is being bullied - and should likely be removed from the enclosure.


I know this is a possibility but I haven't witnessed any aggression at all that's why I haven't separated yet.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

creg said:


> I know this is a possibility but I haven't witnessed any aggression at all that's why I haven't separated yet.


Aggression isn't always overt....frogs get intimidated and can cease eating - sometimes it is scenarios like this that are the only indication of bullying. It is also why this species is always recommended to be kept in pairs, not groups. Things seem fine and are working out...until they aren't.

I would be willing to bet that the health deterioration of this frog is due primarily to bullying, but the other issues (UVB/supplementation) are just exacerbating it.

I would remove the frog right away and see if you can get it eating in a QT tub with some damp paper towel and leaf litter. If it eats, it has a chance, but it looks pretty far gone at this juncture.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Chris S said:


> I would be willing to bet that the health deterioration of this frog is due primarily to bullying, but the other issues (UVB/supplementation) are just exacerbating it.


I'm almost sure this is not the case. Not saying there is no possible 'domination' issues also.

If you look at the discoloration of the skin of the frog (on it's back) , you can see there is a severe infection going on. This infection is not beeing caused by 'bullying'.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

creg said:


> I know but I thought Arcadia reptile were different to other companies


All companies just want to make money. 


creg said:


> I was using Arcadia earth pro a, calcium +mg and d3 revitalise. I think it was about a month I did this for.


Where were you using as supplements before this change to Arcadia supplements?


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Tijl said:


> I'm almost sure this is not the case. Not saying there is no possible 'domination' issues also.
> 
> If you look at the discoloration of the skin of the frog (on it's back) , you can see there is a severe infection going on. This infection is not beeing caused by 'bullying'.


I would agree, but I would also point out that bullying/aggression causes the immune system to become weaker and side effects like infection, are often just the end result of this.

There are likely two issues at stake here:

1. The immediate infection/malnutrition of the frog
2. The trigger, or cause, of these infections - which I would suggest might be related to aggression/bullying

The first step in either case would be removing the frog to a QT bin. You may never know for sure what triggered it, but I think the above is a very likely root cause of the decline.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

creg said:


> I was using Arcadia earth pro a, calcium +mg and d3 revitalise. I think it was about a month I did this for.


Thanks for clarifying. 

Beyond being a complex regimen (took me a while even to comprehend the protocol, though in part because I'm unfamiliar with the specific products) that uses 3 products when one would do (a common sales tactic, not unique to this company), there is insufficient Vitamin A in that rotation. The only Vit A is in the 'RevitalizeD3' at 50,000 iu/kg, to be dosed every sixth or eighth feeding. 

'Repashy Calcium Plus' is generally accepted to be sufficient in Vitamin A for dart frogs that aren't breeding (probably on the lower end of sufficient, but sufficient nonetheless) and contains 200,000 iu/lb = 440,000 iu/kg to be given at every feeding. 'Dendrocare' (another decent supplement) contains 450,000iu/kg, also given at every feeding.

From Arcadia:

"ReVitaliseD3 can be used within the EarthPro-Feeding Programme at either feed 8 or 16 for keepers with the correct UV and heat systems. ReVitaliseD3 can also be used safely at every 2nd or 3rd feed for those that choose to use no or low UV systems." 

"8 or 16" contradicts "6 or 8" in the visual you included above; not sure what to make of this. Even considering the 'every 8th feeding' protocol, suggesting that this could vary to as much as every 2nd feeding would give a 400% variation in the amount of Vitamin A an animal receives, simply as a result of whether it is kept under UVB or not (which has no bearing whatsoever on Vitamin A needs). Also, the "heat system" has no bearing on supplementation (though Arcadia has a big part in pushing a novel heating scheme, so it isn't surprising that they included this).

I had not looked at this supplement line before.


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## creg (Mar 1, 2018)

For anyone wondering...I gave the frog a couple vitamin baths on the advice from a local dart frog specialist shop and he started eating again immediately after, his skin appeared damaged I assume from being too close to the uvb bulb and it's healing back to normal now. It was definitely the uvb that caused this and not aggression/bullying.


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