# Selling young Pumilio/Obligates - What??



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I want to make people aware of my opinion re: selling young obligates especially pumilio [mainly b/c that is what you are going to see anyway]

I see Ads being posted with pums at 2 and 3 mo old. Hell, lots of frogs being sold that young. WHY? 

And better question, why would someone buy them? 

IMHO, any buyer is taking a big, big chance with young obligates.

Assuming they ship ok, there is often a critical period where pums seem to just die off....

called *MOODS*, it stands for *M*ysterious *O*bligate *O*ffspring *D*isappearance *S*yndrome. 

More likely then not from cumulative nutritional deficits.

So, IMO I would wait until pumilio were 5-6+ mo old b/f selling.

My 2 cents.

Buyer beware.


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I agree I will not sell a froglet until i know it is feeding well and gaining weight. I have many pum froglets I refuse to sell because they are just to young and delicate.


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

sports_doc said:


> I want to make people aware of my opinion re: selling young obligates especially pumilio [mainly b/c that is what you are going to see anyway]
> 
> I see Ads being posted with pums at 2 and 3 mo old. Hell, lots of frogs being sold that young. WHY?
> 
> ...


Shawn, I couldn't agree more. Somewhere between 4-5 months they really seem to stabilize quite a bit. But 2 months is way too young and like you said, why buy them at that age? But then again, there are some people still selling frogs that boggle my mind. Selling 2 month old frogs is definitely a trend I would like to see change....


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I agree Shawn. I've always referred to it as "Four Month Death Syndrome". Thanks for making people aware of that!


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Think i had 8 month syndrome on my only yellow belly froglet in 3 yrs. Was doing great until I move it into larger tank then just failed?


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Personally I think we have an obligation as Mods and members to "persuade the change".

Starts with awareness.


----------



## Toxic (Jul 9, 2012)

Is this only for pumilio or does it apply to all dart frogs?


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Hi, my name is Tom... And I'm an alco- wait, victim of MOODS.

Before I knew any better, I did purchase a few pumilio in the 3-4 month range. After 2 of them inexplicably died on me, I had a very informative conversation with Craig that filled me in on all the details about how buying young pumilio like that is a bad idea.

I think it is definitely a good idea to start an open discussion about this so that other people don't have it happen to them. It not only sucks wasting money on something like that, but it is also just incredibly disappointing having anything die in your care for what seems like no reason. It is also disappointing knowing that some poor practices like this around the hobby are potentially leading to further (potentially unnecessary) importation of WC frogs. 

Nowadays when I see people selling young pumilio it frustrates me because I know they are potentially putting their buyer in the same situation I was in. I know when I eventually decide to make the plunge back into pumilio I am going to make sure I heed Craig's advice. I just wish I had gotten it sooner. So, thank you Shawn for making this a public discussion.


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/43382-suggested-format-sales-3.html#post826542


----------



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

The problem I see, is that with a bunch of imports coming in and some less experienced people buying them up and thinking they are going to get rich(It's never going to happen!) that they just don't know any better.I think this is a great thread for that reason and I hope this will teach these guys and potential buyers the importance of waiting until they are older.I will not sell any of mine less than 6 or so months old.Even if they are very healthy shipping them that young is just a recipe for stress disaster.I have gotten some younger (I picked them up )and even though I know what I am doing it is always a risk.


----------



## RobertN (Apr 15, 2006)

I echo this as well. Young obligates don't seem to handle stress well. Beside monetary issue, it is an awfully feeling when something dies on your hand.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

For me Pumilio was always a 3 month frog, if those I sold went down afterward I was never told by the buyer. If a Pum is fat and active usually an experienced hobbyist can tell if a froglet is strong and viable...and there are always those that never really fatten up and stay on the verge of OK, those frogs usually never turn into viable adults and most likely would succumb after the stress of being shipped. I have had plenty of 3 month olds that seemed half grown and were big robust animals, to say wait another month would not be a big deal but to wait 2 - 3 months more would I think create a lot of stress in the tank (for those that keep offspring with parents which I do).
As for thumbs keeping them until they are 4 months old is a bit much unless you are talking Retics. Most fat thumbs at 10 - 12 weeks are durn near bullet proof aside from the aforementioned Retics and some Standard Lamasi/Sirensis. In my experience thumbs at 10 weeks are either strong and viable and fully able to handle the stresses of shipping or if frail at that point it is unlikely they will ever develop into viable adults.
Selling animals at older ages is always a great idea but for those that can't keep 20 offspring for 4 months it becomes which is better scenario, then multiply that times several breeding groups and it really becomes a problem for those that don't have dedicated frog rooms/buildings.
To me it would be far unhealthier to have 25 baby thumbs in a couple of grow out tanks than to be selling them off at 10 - 12 weeks old.
Of course this is just my opnion and there are so many variable outside of the babies themselves. I have had plenty of baby Pums that looked great disappear completely at the 2 week mark...I always figured parent aggression in those cases but who knows.


----------



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Toxic said:


> Is this only for pumilio or does it apply to all dart frogs?


I heard it happens to other frogs as well.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Not in the experiences of myself and others that I know.

We're talking about obligates pretty much when we are talking about the "boundary". Oophaga.

I'm with Mark - Ranitomeya are ready to go much sooner than that. There is no excuse for 2 or 3 week old froglets being sold - but they do not need to wait as long as Oophaga.

s


JPccusa said:


> I heard it happens to other frogs as well.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott said:


> Not in the experiences of myself and others that I know.
> 
> We're talking about obligates pretty much when we are talking about the "boundary". Oophaga.
> 
> ...


. agreed


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I've gotten ranitomeya at 3-4 months and had no problems with them. The Pumilio I got were 3-4 months and the older one survived and did just fine, while the younger two that were closer to 3 months seemed fine and fat and then just wasted away under the same conditions as the 3rd that thrived in.


----------



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I think what shawn's concern is (and I agree)is that recently there have been some much less experienced people(several) selling 2 month oow pums and they aren't fat like Mark's frogs.I trust Mark's judgement and several others.As I stated earlier I have acquired younger ones but I only would do that from a few seasoned people that I know.That would also be the only exception to me selling younger pumilio,Again only a few people that I know are able to take care of them properly.I agree with the Ranitomeya,4 months in my opinion is not necessary, but 3-4 weeks is no good.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I will also add this, I know of at least a couple of people that have purchased young adult sexed trio's only to see 2 of the 3 go down in each trio. I think some of this has to do with how the breeder is raising the young, it may be like salt water fish in that perhaps an adult frog can not adapt if it raised a certain way under certain conditions. Being raised in low light for instance and then suddenly put into a brightly lit terarria may be too stressful for even a healthy captive reared adult....too dramatic a change.
Again so many variables are involved, it is safe to err on the side of older is better and in many cases in can be however viable strong froglets should be just that. Now in the case of Carola seeing fat froglets of 3 months going down I am stumped, perhaps they were raised separately and then put together, some unseen stress.
A good rule is feel comfortable with who you are dealing with and hopefully someone that has been around a bit with rarer or more difficult frogs. Most good breeders will take care of issues in one way or another if problems arise, even down the road.


----------



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I must add that it is not just the new folks that are selling 2-3 month old pumilio. There is a very big name frog person/business that routinely sells pumilio at 2-3 months. I bought 3 bastis from him. I just assumed the frogs were around 5-6 months old (based on the price). I was very surprised when I got them that the ootw dates on them were 2-3 months. None of them were terribly robust, but looked OK. None of them made it.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Hmmmmmm, alot like this right?? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/93712-pumilio-froglets-sale.html


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

oddlot said:


> I think what shawn's concern is (and I agree)is that recently there have been some much less experienced people(several) selling 2 month oow pums and they aren't fat like Mark's frogs.I trust Mark's judgement and several others.As I stated earlier I have acquired younger ones but I only would do that from a few seasoned people that I know.That would also be the only exception to me selling younger pumilio,Again only a few people that I know are able to take care of them properly.I agree with the Ranitomeya,4 months in my opinion is not necessary, but 3-4 weeks is no good.


and TBH it is also about trust, trust in the seller to replace lost frogs if sold young, trust in the seller to have raised them well nourished, and trust the buyer to treat young frogs with 'kid gloves' and extra care.

Guidelines are just that.....

But I see nothing wrong with a general consensus that older is always better then younger.

and that Live Arrival which is typical in the hobby, should extend longer then the 'front door', if someone agrees to buy young frogs.

No?


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> Hmmmmmm, alot like this right?? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/93712-pumilio-froglets-sale.html



Its as if no one's listening :-(


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Hopefully at least potential buyers have taken notice...... 

Maybe we need a short "best practices for buying and selling frogs" sticky to at least cover the basics and help newbies. Of course, then the challenge is getting them to actually *read* the sticky...


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Actually - the person is quite new - it's very probable they're not listening.

Or else they're really hard up for $.

s


sports_doc said:


> Its as if no one's listening :-(


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Scott said:


> Actually - the person is quite new - it's very probable they're not listening.
> 
> Or else they're really hard up for $.
> 
> s


I think, especially since it is someone new, that a politely worded PM, from someone who knows about these things, would be a good idea and a nice gesture.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm going to amend this slightly to include Ameerega along with Oophaga.

Ameerega come out of the water extremely small (sort of like Reticulatas). 

I think they need a longer growing out period as well. Given the sheer numbers these frogs can produce - it's imperative you have LOTS of small food stuffs around.

s


Scott said:


> Not in the experiences of myself and others that I know.
> 
> We're talking about obligates pretty much when we are talking about the "boundary". Oophaga.
> 
> ...


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

I pointed the person in the direction of this thread a long time ago. He replied and said he would wait to sell them a few more months.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

"A long time ago"? The thread is only 2 days old!

People make bad decisions when they need $.

s


pdfCrazy said:


> I pointed the person in the direction of this thread a long time ago. He replied and said he would wait to sell them a few more months.


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Scott said:


> "A long time ago"? The thread is only 2 days old!
> 
> People make bad decisions when they need $.
> 
> s


As in, when this thread was only a few posts long


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ya when I got my darklands that I later sold to finance my fox purchase the first male I got looked great, healthy/active...mysteriously just died a week or 2 after arrival, other frog and the 2nd male seller sent did great...and they were adults or very well started older juvies...so ya I'm all for holding on to them for awhile before you ship em out. 

Just to be clear *my frogs were older*...but I still had a mysterious loss...so my guess is it happens much more often with younger frogs.

To be honest though I* may* have been guilty of selling offspring only a few months out of the water...I remember I held on to them for awhile, but It was so long ago I have no idea how old they actually were, so the offspring I sent to buyer along with the adults might have been a little young...I never heard any complaints from the buyer so I guess they did ok, but If I did sell em a bit young in hindsight I'd regret it.


----------



## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

This is interesting , because I got a phone call from someone recently who bought some young pum. froglets from a guy around me. when I saw the pics i said these look real young. He said the seller said they were fine. Such a deal. Who am I to argue. Within 3 weeks both were dead. Sold too young. With all the pumilio available lately, these adults are breeding well. Meaning the owner may want to sell the froglets quickly. Obviously a big mistake. 
Too many "I'm a great breeder" "trust me", syndrome kicks in, and you want to sell your animals, to recoup costs, or what ever. This is a hobby, not a stand alone business. Hold onto the animals, so they LIVE. Now if you are a seller of two month old froglets expect to replace 75% of them. That business model will fail.
4-6 months will equal success. And again there are plenty of guys on here who are good. Avoid 2-3 month old pums, from anyone who wants to sell that young. You will be better off. No drama. My 2 cents.


Daryl

By the way the seller has no froglets to replace the ones that died currently. So the moral of the story,your out the money, frogs are dead FOR nothing. And no one wins.


----------



## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

daryl34 said:


> This is interesting , because I got a phone call from someone recently who bought some young pum. froglets from a guy around me. when I saw the pics i said these look real young. He said the seller said they were fine. Such a deal. Who am I to argue. Within 3 weeks both were dead. Sold too young. With all the pumilio available lately, these adults are breeding well. Meaning the owner may want to sell the froglets quickly. Obviously a big mistake.
> Too many "I'm a great breeder" "trust me", syndrome kicks in, and you want to sell your animals, to recoup costs, or what ever. This is a hobby, not a stand alone business. Hold onto the animals, so they LIVE. Now if you are a seller of two month old froglets expect to replace 75% of them. That business model will fail.
> 4-6 months will equal success. And again there are plenty of guys on here who are good. Avoid 2-3 month old pums, from anyone who wants to sell that young. You will be better off. No drama. My 2 cents.


To expand on some of Daryl's thoughts, I think part of the explanation behind this trend is that so many of these new imports are being paired and sold to people that are new to obligates, and in some cases new to frogs. I think almost all of the people that have been keeping obligates for a few years, and have some breeding experience, realize why you have to wait at least 4 months to transfer them to another owner. In my experience, breeding is only one of the callenges of keeping obligates. Raising the froglets to a helathy age can be just as difficult.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

For the record - the smallest froglets I ever received came from a very well respected person in "the business".

I've been in the hobby for quite awhile - and this transaction was over 10 years ago. Don't know if the person still sends them out that small (*tiny* A hahneli froglets) - but hopefully not.

s


----------



## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

cbreon said:


> .... I think part of the explanation behind this trend is that so many of these new imports are being paired and sold to people that are new to obligates, and in some cases new to frogs.....


This touches on an opinion of mine that I am aware is quite strong. It includes selling animals too early, but there have been many quality voices heard that I don't need to expand. My pet peeve is selling imports to the average hobbyist. It is my opinion (I've voiced it before) that imports should be reserved for experienced keepers ONLY! Then, preferably keepers with a background in the biological sciences. Why, you ask? Because a bloodline is only as good as the record keeper, and only as reliable as his/her reputation. Taking an animal from the wild, farmed or not, is to make that animal an ambassador of its kind. We speak words like conservation and, although improperly used, preservation, but what do those words truly mean? To me, they mean being totally free from having to import animals in the first place. Farmed is another word so freely thrown about. I challenge the majority to properly describe a real farming operation. Please begin with the date you were there. "I heard from a friend who went there" does not count. My bottom line is this: It is the responsibility of the importer to see that the animals they imported end up in hands that they themselves would trust. I saw it mentioned that there wasn't enough profit (paraphrased to help maintain anonymity) to wholesale particular animals. That is not what I mean, nor should profit be of concern. What I do mean is that these imported animals should go to the people who can respect that animal for what it is. My aforementioned ambassador. GREAT thread, |OP|!


----------



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> and that Live Arrival which is typical in the hobby, should extend longer then the 'front door', if someone agrees to buy young frogs.
> 
> No?




I agree with this.....glad to see at least one mod on here thinks this. I am sure a few others do, but have been told by another that responsibility is solely on the buyer once it arrives alive. I disagree with that. 

Couldn't agree more on the amereega Scott.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I too agree that the live arrival should be more than they got here OK, if problems pop up in the next few weeks the breeder should always be willing to take care of problems provided the buyer has been qualified as to at least having the basics down...so the responsibility goes both ways. Anybody wanting to stick around for any time in this hobby should have the well being of both the animals and members of the community in mind when you are selling animals.


----------



## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I follow up a couple weeks later with most, if not all of my shipments just to see how the frogs are doing. I want the person who bought them to have healthy and thriving animals. Obviously I am not selling a ton of animals like some people, but I don't think it takes much to send a PM or email saying:

"Hey, just checking in and seeing how the frogs are doing. I hope all is well. 
-Tom"

Some people respond once and that is that, some people continue to chit chat about care, behavior, breeding success, etc and that is great too. Some people don't respond at all. It is still worth my time to do it.

Maybe this is just me carrying work habits over to the hobby... But in my line of work follow ups and open communication keeps you in business with referrals and repeat customers.


----------



## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I wouldnt sell pums under 5 months old. I also have seen people sell ridiculous young pums at madd meets. Just my 2 cents


----------

