# Dart Feeding Trough Concept



## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

The whole reason I got into darts was to develop a product concept I came up with. I'm going to share my concept because it didn't work the way I had hoped...but CRAP! I was sure it would, and still believe with some frogs it could, just not all of them. It is going to depend on the aggressiveness of each individual, and their predilection to the food offered. So here goes...

Over the last year, I saw several posts from folks about their darts eating flake and pelleted fish food from the surface of water, and when I asked some guys at a swap meet if their frogs had ever done such a thing, they just nodded and said, "Sure." Being an animal behavior guy, and an old herper who has always wanted darts, but never fruit flies...this turned a light on. 

I took the lid of a pushpin box, turned it upside down, glued the air nozzle from a standard airstone to it (the airstone was busted off) into one hinge slot, pointed slightly down, and then hooked airline tubing and an airpump to it. I put one tablespoon of water on the lid, and turned on the airpump. I sprinkled FD bloodworms on the water..and there I had it...a swirling buffet. The rectangular shape of the lid also kept the angles odd, so the bloodworms floated round and round. and didn't amass in the corners for several minutes, until they had taken on too much water to stay afloat easily.

Next was to try it on my test subject, a juvie P. bicolor. As soon as I fired it up, the frog immediately hopped from the other end of the 5.5 gallon tank to see what was up (I was FREAKING OUT :shock: )...and then he just sat there, looking at the swirling food. Not one attempt to feed was observed, but it caught his attention instantly. I believe this would eventually work with some frogs, and I will try again, but deciding on a food would be a big issue...also having a level surface in the terrarium on which to place the "trough" was a big issue, as the trough obviously can't be very high, hence the use of a pushpin box lid. 

Anyway...Maybe someone can improve on this concept, develop a floating, soft, palatible food, and revolutionize dart feeding. It would most likely never work for thumbs, but the bigger terrestrials? Who knows?


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I think some frogs do it, but out of my 50 frogs I only saw one frog ever doing that. this is the most greedy frog I haven and she also tries to eat snails and slugs and nemerteans and woodlice half her size.
I think this concept could be used for some frogs, but I think it would be for a very small minority.

I also don't know if a diet consisting of only the available freeze-dried insects and/or fishfood would be suitable for the frogs.

but great idea! maybe something revolutionary will grow out of it?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It likely had a lot to do with be attracted to the initial movement - which would be investigated if small enough - but the size, shape, and/or movement had them not recognize it as a food item. It's well documented in anurans that they tend to recognize prey from these factors (at least initially) and items outside these parameters aren't considered food (even if initially attracted to the movement) and gone after. 

There is also the problem with the food item... there have been issues with feeding F/D foods in the past. 

I'm not incredibly fond of ideas like these... they take away part of what it takes to keep these guys successfully and "dumb down" the care of these animals so that they have a kibble food, water bowl, and basic cage and cage furniture that can be bought at any pet store. These guys have specialized care and habits and if these are outside the relm of what someone wants to do, it suck that they can't keep them but these guys aren't for everyone. These guys feed on live foods, and I've not seen particular success moving away from live foods with some other animals long term. Sometimes you just gotta give into the way nature wired them rather than trying to mold them to what the human keeper wants.


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## skronkykong (Jan 1, 2007)

Its a good concept and it would definitely work for some frogs. Some can be taught. Mine will eaty anything I present to them on the tip of my finger. And if nothing is on the finger they will still slap it with their tongues. 

But as Kero said the freeze dried foods would be a idea for a staple diet. They might be ok occasionally but not everytime. Its a good idea for suppliments though. Maybe someone will make tiny vitamin pellets to use in a trough.


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> It likely had a lot to do with be attracted to the initial movement .


Brilliant. So you're saying the frog was attracted to the MOVEMENT? Amazing...during this entire process I never considered that frogs might be attracted to movement...wow. Why didn't I think of that? CRAP!



KeroKero said:


> I'm not incredibly fond of ideas like these... they take away part of what it takes to keep these guys successfully and "dumb down" the care of these animals so that they have a kibble food, water bowl, and basic cage and cage furniture that can be bought at any pet store. These guys have specialized care and habits and if these are outside the relm of what someone wants to do, it suck that they can't keep them but these guys aren't for everyone. These guys feed on live foods, and I've not seen particular success moving away from live foods with some other animals long term. Sometimes you just gotta give into the way nature wired them rather than trying to mold them to what the human keeper wants.


Elitist, purist attitudes are exactly what keeps difficult hobbies like keeping and breeding dart frogs from expanding. They are also what makes most herp forums eventually unbearable, all the "resident experts" trolling around looking for someone to rebuke. It's kinda sad, actually. You wanna help someone, great...you wanna offer some sweeping ideological criticism of an attempt at advancement...stuff it, as what you "are incredibly fond of" is not my concern.

This idea was all about making their care easier, and the FD bloodworms were a test food. Did you miss the part about the floating, palatible food at the end? I wasn't trying to mold anything, just utilize an anurans natural response to movement to get them to eat a packaged, wholly nutritious diet that is effort free. And if a method were found in which it did work...you would be in the vast minority, because fruit flies freakin suck, and many would use it. If the frogs give it their approval, and their health benefits from it...guess what? Your lofty opinion ceases to hold much weight. 

Besides, these are pets, not small, isolated breeding populations that will eventually be gloriously released into the wild again with a parade led by the Al Gore...they are pets being kept in tiny glass boxes against their will, so going all noble is lost on those with a grasp on reality. 

Some of them recognize feeding times and actually line up to eat...the possibilities and signs are there, in my mind, that this is something that could move forward. But a floating, soft, maybe even gelatinous pellet with an odor that induced them to hold and swallow it would obviously be necessary. I never said FD foods were the end-all answer to the nutrition issues raised by such a concept. 

Isn't the end result the proliferation of the species and advancement of the hobby? This idea, if eventually successful, would do nothing but foster that. There are those that would use the difficulties of a hobby to keep others out, thereby increasing their own "uniqueness". Sometimes it's more about us than the frogs.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

If pest insects such as fruit flies are difficult for you to keep, I don't think you should even be considering amphibians. Your promoting a lazy hands off attitude to their care. hell, why keep em in a planted vivarium. The plants just keep dying. I keep mine in an old coffee can and throw some dog food at em every now and then. as long as it doesn't inconvenience me any its no one else's business right!? :?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

First - lets not permit this to spiral into a mess of a thread that needs to be cleaned up or removed due to posts that violate the UA.

Second, while it may not be the ideal option in everyone's mind, I do believe that such an innovation may provide some utility. In cases of FF emergencies - where there isn't enough backup food to keep your frogs happy for a period of time - something like this would be useful. It would also be a useful way of supplementing the diets of our animals, in addition to providing staple feeder insects. Meeting the nutritional needs of dendrobatids is not quite an exact science (mix fly with powder - feed fly - hope fly gets eaten before it cleans itself of said powder - rinse, lather, repeat)

Research has shown what percentage of the gut contents of wild dendrobatids to be _Drosophila_? Oh, yeah... So while feeding FFs does supply a live food source - it isn't exactly representative of a wild diet. 

Food (live or powdered) for thought....


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I can't seem to find the thread but there was a device that claimed to feed dry goods to amphibians and reptiles since it had a feeding plate that vibrated the food item. Yours seems to use water instead, but I'd say the vibrating version has been patented already.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I used to put frog and tadpole bites in the feeding dish where I put fruit flies and my frogs invariably ate them...but only because there was movement from fruit flies.

Even my aquatic frogs I feed primarily dry food get a bunch of other goodies that are "fresh," I'd say about 25% of the time.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Smashtoad,

I think your comment:


> Elitist, purist attitudes are exactly what keeps difficult hobbies like keeping and breeding dart frogs from expanding.


This is more than a bit off base. What is sad is the number of people that come in here and love to argue with people with years experience and treat them like they are idiots. All this does is cause the people with experience to not want to help anyone. You blast Corey and yet have no worthwhile reason for doing so. What you fail to realize is that she has single handedly written the majority of the content of our care sheets and has a much better understanding of the care of these animals than most of the members. 

I fail to understand why anyone would want these animals to be as common as say a gold fish. How many gold fish die yearly due to being put in a bowl. Hell here is a good example, how many people ran out and bought Coral fish after the movie "Finding Nemo"? How many then died? * Most exotic pets are not and should not be for the average person, not because they can not do it, but because they won't.* The average person is lazy will never be successful with most exotic pets. then to top it off this causes more pressure from crazed radical groups, and politicians to try to put more restrictions on exotic pets. 

With that said I believe there has also been some information about frogs as well as other reptiles and etc that they not only focus in the movement but the bright\shinny colors of some insects. Many times theses are very hard to see unless the lighting is just right but I seem to remember that many animals can see these insects much better due to the colors.

As for the FFs being tough Im not sure what other animals you have kept but after you have a system down FFs are one of the easiest food sources for an exotic pet that I know of. Its a matter of learning, and working out a system that works for you. After thats its as simple as repeating the process weekly. Most people that find the FFs difficult bought the frogs as a impulse buy with no investigation to their care. Why don't we work to solve this problem... :shock:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Geez, I don't go online over the weekend and look what happens.

My point was that they were _attracted_ by movement, but the whole feeding process was not dictated by it (as implied by the rest of the sentence which was written to give you an idea of what was missing out of your product). Thus the success of getting the frogs' attention, but not the feeding. For a successful feeding mechanism, you'd have to study more about the prey selection of the frogs... other food bowl ideas - such as the vibrating bowl - got around this by offering freeze dried foods already accepted by the animals and thus got around that issue. Using similar food products could easily make your experiment more successful... but as I mentioned before those products aren't particularly good mostly because of the freeze drying pulling out all the moisture... but a moisture laden food product is more perishable and may have floating issues. While I was busy being an "elitist" I was also trying to give you clues into feeding behavoir I think you either missed or didn't know about (I can give you some study references you may find useful) that either could be overcome or couldn't.

We're still trying to learn and understand the PDF diet (and how varied it is with these guys) so I'm more interested in how you're doing to develop the "floating, palatible food" more than how to feed it (it's a case of been there, heard that). Scent, in this case, isn't much of a factor, taste is really after they already have it in their mouth, if it doesn't taste too bad they won't spit it out (research, research, research, _ugh_). This idea is often brought up as a short cut... but a short cut to what? It's an idea being worked from the wrong end. And I don't think the palatable part is the biggest issue, but the nutrition in the package... then make it palatable. Then find a way to present it to the animal.

Yes, raising feeder insects can really suck. It's also part of the challenge, because their care can't be simplified like many of the other popular herps (and which is why this hobby parallels fish more than reptiles). For a majority of it, feeder insects is the neccessary evil, just like feeding mice to snakes, and hay to horses.

And yes, I gave my opinion. I do it a lot. But the amazing thing? You can often learn a lot from opinions, and when trying to develop a project it's something to take into account. Why do these people have this opinion? Why does this person say it may not be worth persuing? How can I use that information to go down an avenue that could make it more successful?


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

I think the responses have been very good thus far. A lot of my response may just be a "stream of consciousness," and may not contribute anything to this conversation.

A lot of this is going to come down to personal choice on the matter and your own value judgment based upon your experience and needs. Drosophila is definitely NOT the main food these frogs consume in the wild. Only considering dietary needs a non-live food product could be developed that is better for the frogs nutritionally. 

Most (if not all) of are dart frogs in the hobby are NOT captive colonies being held to potentially repopulate wild habitats. So each hobbyist should look at why they keep frogs now AND what their future role may be as well. If you are helping to maintain a viable captive population that best represents the wild population (to reduce pressure on wild collections or learn about similar threatened species care) then your feeding philosophy should reflect that goal.

Here is my personal view on how I would incorporate non-living food considerations into my frog husbandry techniques. It reflects my personal involvement in projects like the Amphibian Steward Network. I like the idea of having a potential food source for my frogs in times of unexpected shortages. (although a feeding system for 18 tanks may cost more than just investing in ordering food as needed). This would be most useful in the dead of winter when shipping is the most costly and difficult and when field sweepings are not available. Long term feeding of frogs only non-living foods (multi generational) could lead to the loss of the ability to feed on living food items. Conversely an non-living food supply that is a closer content match than dusted-drosophila could prevent changes through time in the frogs that would select for frogs that do better (biochemically/nutritionally) on a living artificial diet. 

As an ecologist I find the entire life history and ecosystem interactions of keeping dart frogs as fascinating as the behaviors and colors of the frogs themselves (and some of these behaviors stem from live food). I love to watch my frogs struggle with a "new" prey item and either learn to eat it or avoid it (and spit it out). Perhaps the same joy a parent gets in giving their young child a new food, watching those classic facial responses. 
Part of my interest in this hobby comes in learning about the different prey insects that can be cultured. I spend more time with my insects than my frogs at times. In all honesty though if someone offered to drop off fruit flies at my house every week at just over the cost it is for me to make them I would jump at the chance! I would still maintain my insects but more as a supplemental or just to keep my skills active.

As a cook I love to make many things from scratch, even to try it once. Ever made your own coconut milk, pancake mix, pasta, sausage? Having an understanding appreciation of how the ingredients has distinctive benefits when you decide to just go simple. (I have since decided it is easier to buy my own coconut milk for considerations for time and cost). 

Everyday each one of us uses products and enjoy things that we do not have time or interest in understanding the process on the whole. I have a basic understanding of how my car works, how my clothes are made, or how great cinematography is done BUT my car meets my transportation needs, clothes keep me looking good and not naked (perhaps correlated), and movies entertain me. 
Keeping frogs fit into this category for many people, and that's OK. For most they do not fill a role of companionship role as a dog/cat would. I think for some they fill an aesthetic or artistic role, a living piece of artwork, that needs to be maintained as other material things do. The distinction from artwork needs to come in the fact that they are living animals and are not inanimate objects. They deserve a certain level of care, dedication, and respect above that of a piece of artwork. Letting a beautiful classic car fall into disrepair is different than allowing a frog to starve or develop problems due to malnutrition (and these are issues for both sides of this "debate"). Leading to my next and final point.

Having a convenient non-living food source may attract a significantly larger proportion of people to this hobby. A portion of these hobbyists will do an excellent job caring for their frogs when the only real barrier for them was the food supply. They may even come to learn about live food sources and in time transition to other species or work with ASN or other conservation groups (embracing live food when it is necessary/beneficial). Conversely a portion of these "new non-live food hobbyists" will lose interest, just as many of the "new live food hobbyists" do. Their frogs will suffer, and perhaps ultimately die. What potential does the non-live food have to serve the greater good of the hobby, of the frogs? Is it our place to make these predictions and then prevent their occurrence, can we even make accurate predictions? Is it our responsibility to protect frogs against potential "abuse" (do we do it now)?

I am excited to read about potential successes that may come in non-living food for poison frogs. It has potential to benefit many frogs in the hobby, and may serve as a baseline of observation for the feeding behavior of poison frogs.

In the end I always am going to advocate that hobbyists are educated about their frogs, have a commitment to their well being, and are open to the discussion of the diversity of opinions and possibilities that exist in this hobby and the world.

just some food for thought, it was for me at least

Matt


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I think there could be a place for easy to feed foods for darts. Perhaps not as a staple diet, but more of an emergency or backup food. How many of us have had sudden culture crashes or gone off on vacations and worried about relying on other people to feed their animals?

Personally, I think that non living food would be difficult considering the way that the movement of prey items is wired to the feeding response in frogs, but IMHO there's nothing wrong with at least looking at the possiblity. For certain situations it could be helpful.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Mr. Toad, I would encourage you to continue your feeding experiments. Feeding nutriant dusted FFs isn't the most natural process either. Further, I would hope that you could find other reasons to stay into darts other than simple product development. One good reason to consider, would be to help strengthen the relationships of this diverse and knowledgable community of PDF hobbiests and breeders.

FWIW, I think frogs are hardwired and more likely to strike at food items that feature multiple, different, and non-repetitive movements. Swirling is probably too repetitive and not varied enough.


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

pl259 said:


> Mr. Toad, I would encourage you to continue your feeding experiments. Feeding nutriant dusted FFs isn't the most natural process either. Further, I would hope that you could find other reasons to stay into darts other than simple product development. One good reason to consider, would be to help strengthen the relationships of this diverse and knowledgable community of PDF hobbiests and breeders.
> 
> FWIW, I think frogs are hardwired and more likely to strike at food items that feature multiple, different, and non-repetitive movements. Swirling is probably too repetitive and not varied enough.


Fruit flies aren't perfect...there is another valuable little tidbit...thanks.

I should have stated that I am very much into plants as well, and that the concept was the catalyst for prompting me to get a dart frog...not the only reason. Your last paragraph is exactly the battle I am fighting...so it's worth everything.


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## zachxbass (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this or not, but one of the name brand reptile supply places (exoterra, or zoo-med)makes a feeding dish that vibrates, causing the food in there to wiggle around. I think it was for for larger herps, and freeze dried crickets, things like that. But it's the same concept. I'm sure you could put dead fruit flies or something similar in there, and they would apear to move. Although the vibrations may bug the frogs. I have never used it... only seen the box at one of the local pet stores. interesting concept but not one i plan on trying anytime soon. I would imagine that live food has to have some benefits that dead food wouldn't. Just my thoughts.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Hmmmmmmm an interesting concept. I can see how it may be useful in some situations like a while back when someone in iceland (I believe) was having a hard time finding food for their leucs, pet stores didn't have it and tracking it down was a hassle. They could have simply started up your idea and been set (if it worked no offence :wink: ) until they discovered a food source that was feasible. Overall though I feel that there just isn't a market for it, this is a BROAD generalization here but darts have 2 main motivating factors breeding and feeding. I would say much of their movement is due to the fact that they are searching for food, when food is just set in a dish infront of them the frogs don't have to hunt they may become lifeless zombies just waiting for more to be popped into the dish.

Just hear me out though I'm not burning your idea new feeding techniques can lead to great things like the SELF SUSTAINING VIV thread a while back.

Justin


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