# Bloated, lethargic Patricia



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Well I have had this frog for about 6 months and purchased it and another as a tiny froglet. Shortly after I got them, due to my inexperience with acrylic lids, this one escaped through a small gap. I found it when I got home one room away covered in dust with its eyes milky. After giving it warms baths of pedialyte and keeping it in a smaller container, it regained its strenght. It in fact grew quicker that its larger sibling. Earlier this week I noticed that during feeding time it was clumsily hopping to the fruit flies didnt sit upright and was getting bloated. 
It has always been kept in a 10 gallon tank with its sibling at 75 degrees, getting Dendrocare and Calcium dusted fruit flies at every feeding. The other frog in the tank is doing great and showing no similar signs. At this point I dont know what to do, my only thought is that the frog suffered permanent injury to its liver/ kidney/ internal organs 6 months ago, but that is an aweful long time. Can anyone help me? This is the way it currently looks.










Thanks,

rjm


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2004)

Take a look at the WIDE AURATUS heading.


----------



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

I was hoping for a little more since I provided more specifics about the husbandy of the animal. But from your list I can rule out 1. and 2. as the other frog in the same viv is doing fine. As of this morning, the condition was the same but it still has its appetite and was readily eating fruit flies.

rjm


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2004)

You can only really rule out innappropriate vitamin/minerals. You can't rule out parasites, organ failure due to other causes, or some type of cancer or trauma. Parasites are by far the most likely.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*maybe your supplements?*

The symptoms you mention sound like Vitamin A toxicity? Dr. Frye gives some care info in the ‘wide auratus’ http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=123 thread that might be helpful and decrease some of the swelling the patricia is suffering. 

There have been some discussions on frognet lately regarding dendrocare and Vitamin A toxicity. Nothing has been proven but some people have noticed the symptoms you mentioned with daily use of dendrocare. 

Unfortunately, if it is liver damage, it might be too late to save the frog, but you might try discontinuing you current supplements and switch to a 50 – 50 mix of herptivite and repcal. 

The only way to know for certain is to have fecals done or a necropsy if the frog does die.

Hope this is helpful,

Melis


----------



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

I've been reading about the Dendrocare thread on frognet as well and think that I will reduce the number of dustings with it to twice a month, switching to herptivite and repcal for the daily feedings. Strange to see that with 2 frogs living in the same viv only one gets affected. Only time will tell.

rjm


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

We considered switching over to dendrocare about a year ago, but the prescence of the Vit A scared me. Since we were not having any issues, we decided not to change it. 

There have been times we have gotten frogs from someone else and within 6 months we loose the female in the manner you describe. I wonder if females are more sensitive to this? Be interesting to know the sex of your frogs, wouldn't that be wild if you have a male & a female - and the female is the one ill?

btw...nice to meet another frognet lurker!!!

Melis


----------



## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I have been using Dendrocare at every feeding since I got it (and the frogs) since November. Maybe it's because my frogs are still growing, but I haven't had any issues with it other than how expensive it is. Once it's gone, I'll switch back to Miner-All.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Miner-all*

Just because you haven't seen any effects yet, doesn't mean you won't have them 3, 6 or 12 months down the road. I think Miner-all has vitamin A in it as well. I would switch to the 50 - 50 mix of herptivite & repcal, most breeders we know use this vitamin/mineral mix.

Melis


----------



## Guest (Mar 25, 2004)

I also highly recommend RepCal and Herptivite.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I wouldn't wait. I started seeing symptoms in my D. casteoneticus 4 or 5 months after starting with Dendrocare.

I tossed mine.

s



Arklier said:


> I have been using Dendrocare at every feeding since I got it (and the frogs) since November. Maybe it's because my frogs are still growing, but I haven't had any issues with it other than how expensive it is. Once it's gone, I'll switch back to Miner-All.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*...*

Scott,

Did your frogs recover?

I would switch immediately as well. What is $15 bucks compared to the health of your frogs? 

Melis


----------



## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I don't usually read frognet, but I do have an account there. Looking over the threads on the product there, the opinions seem to be mixed. Personally, I think that some people are jumping the gun a bit. 

One accusation by someone else that an unnamed frogger was using it and having a problem that may or may not be related to the suppliment and got rid of it and the frogs got better does not a scientific study make. How long were they using it? Was it really vitamin A poisoning? Did they do tests to find out? How long had they had the frogs? What else did they rule out? Were there other problems that the frogs might have had that could have contributed to the issue? We don't know. As for the people that said that they were having problems throughout their collection with the frogs that only had Dendrocare, I find it interesting that none of them seem to have had necropsies done to irrefutably proove that it was the cause. Then on the other hand, you have the people who have used it for years and never had any issues with it.

Dendrocare may not be the end all be all of vitamin powders, but I don't think anything is. Oh, and I forgot to add earlier, I sometimes 'cut' it with Rep-Cal, which I have left over from when I had leos.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*frognet...*

You have some valid points. There are a lot of variables to test and I don't forsee anyone stepping up to the plate with the time or financial resources to perform the long term studies necessary to give the answers you seek. 

Like everything on frognet & dendroboard, people comment on their experiences as well as known facts.

Fact: 
1. Too much Vitamin A is a real threat to dart frogs.
2. Symptoms of vitamin A toxcity are similar to the ones discussed on this thread.

Experience:
1. I haven't heard of anyone who uses toe 50-50 mix of herptivite & repcal (as their only supplement) having vitamin A toxcity. 
2. I have known breeders who switch to a new vitamin to loose a large number of frogs 6 months after they switch to the new supplement. Necropsies verified liver damage. This breeder had been using the 50-50 mix for years and tried something new. The only thing that had changed was the supplement they were dusting their flies with. 
3. I have spoken with a number of breeders and discussed dendrocare. We came to the conclusion the potential benifits were not worth the risk of changing supplements.
4. European set ups and diet for their frogs is different than a typical US setup. So there might be other environmental issues involved.

It is up to individuals to decide what to dust their feeder insects with. All any of us can do is contribute to the discussion.

Melis


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: ...*

I had lost one when I tossed Dendrocare. At least two others (there were 5 before I lost one) were not doing well (periodically spasming to the point where I thought they were dead - more than once).

They all appear to be doing much better now - though I also gave them a couple more hide spots.

Let's put it this way - they're still alive and looking fairly well when my expectation was that they would be dead by now.

s



melissa68 said:


> Did your frogs recover?
> 
> I would switch immediately as well. What is $15 bucks compared to the health of your frogs?
> 
> Melis


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Any Updates?*

On the Patricias?


----------



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

I received the dextrose from Dr. Frye and proceeded to give her a soaking last night for 1 hour as well as dusting the fruit flies with the powdered dewormer. She was a bit more active, but still a bloated. I will continue to soak her for 1 hour every night and keep her quarentined until I get the results from the fecal sample that I am sending Dr. Frye today. Just as a bit of precaution I have dusted the fruit flies for all of my frogs with the dewormer and will continue to do so once a week.

rjm


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*keep us up to date...*

You will have to keep us up to date. 

I would be careful deworming your entire collection, especially without having fecals done on all your frogs. There is some evidence of other animals building up a resistance to medications like panacure when it is administered as a preventive dose. 

After performing some searches on the net, I came up with a very good article referring that is published on the World Chelonian Trust's web site. Here is a link to the article. http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/Medical_misinformation.htm. With in the article, the author, Chris Tabaka DVM references many articles and studies where damage to bone marrow, and even death has been caused by panacure. References are cited about birds, swines, cats and dogs. 

One of the main purposes of this article is to point out the dangers of people treating and dosing their own animal and the importance of working with your vet to develop an effective protocol. Although myself and others do exactly what this article warns against, I think there are some more important points to the article. The most important one, is that Panacure resistance can occur as well as overdoses of the medication. 

The information regarding the dosage recommendations and how a vet arrives at them are very informative. Some of the highlights are:
1. species of the animal
2. physical condition of animal
3. hydration status
4. age of animal
5. body size (not only the weight)
6. parasite load determined by fecals
7. published dosage requirements 
8. The vet's experience. 

The author warns, if deworming is done without tests to determine what parasites are present you might be giving the wrong drug. 

Unfortunately there are very few if any studies regarding panacure being used as a weekly preventive. 

After reading the article, I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions.

Melis


----------



## Guest (Mar 30, 2004)

Rather than comment on how to appropriately prescribe and use drugs in dart frogs, I thought I'd point out a few things about the preceding post.

I have read the article referenced and most of the articles referenced within that article.

My favorite statements that the author makes are:

"However, this does not stop many with no medical training nor continuing education to publish non-peer reviewed nor referenced medical information as fact across the internet. Unfortunately this type of behavior is not only irresponsible but can also cause varying degrees of harm. "

"Medicine is as much art as it is science and years of clinical training as well as clinical experience go into a veterinarian’s dosaging recommendations. "

"Fecal exams are ESSENTIAL for proper diagnosis as well as treatment. Two quick examples are parasitic protozoal burdens such as Entamoeba as well as a common parasite in aquatic chelonia, tapeworms. "

Melissa's last posting is a good example of how "many with no medical training nor continuing education to publish non-peer reviewed nor referenced medical information as fact across the internet." Melissa obviously means to be helpful, but she doesn't truly understand what she is reading. She doesn't have the background in medicine to pass information on without the information becoming garbled. Do you remember the game where you whisper something into your neighbor's ear. They continue to whisper into their neighbor's ear, and so on until it comes back to you totally different than what you originally said?

Examples - 

Dr. Tabaka's article doesn't mention treated animal's building up resistance to the drug, but the parasites themselves gaining increased drug resistance. Actually he doesn't even give any evidence or references to that, but mentions certain parasites (protozoa and tapeworms) that have never been affected by fenbendazole.

References cited actually only include suspected toxicities in birds and vipers that are given extremely high overdoses of fenbendazole and teratogenic properties when given to purple sea urchins.

The Swine reference is because the drug used was labeled for swine – “an anthelmintic of swine”

The dog and cat reference was to a different drug - albendazole.


In conclusion, PLEASE HAVE YOUR FROG"S FECALS TESTED BY SOMEONE WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT!!! There are many parasites that will not be eliminated by Panacur (fenbendazole) such as COCCIDIA or TAPEWORMS. Even if your frogs act healthy as can be, they most likely have some parasites and are contaminating their environment. I know of one gentleman that has a large well-planted vivarium that he is extremely proud of. His frogs have coccidia and he doesn't even know it (I diagnosed the problem earlier from the source of his frogs.) COCCIDIA is, as of right now, incurable in amphibians (although I am working on a very promising treatment.) This man's vivaria is literally unsuitable for any other dart frogs - forever. I can not warn him due to doctor-client confidentiality.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Purpose of a forum...*

The purpose of a forum is to provide a place where there can be OPEN discussion or voicing of ideas.

If you reread my post I never stated I was expressing facts, but sharing an article on this site that I thought other people would find interesting. 

I expressed an opinion and I asked others to share theirs, I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you, Mr. Frye, for sharing your opinion and facilitating the conversation. 



> "Melissa obviously means to be helpful, but she doesn't truly understand what she is reading. She doesn't have the background in medicine to pass information on without the information becoming garbled."


Mr. Frye, in regards to your statement (quoted above) please do not assume things about my personal background, knowledge, expertise, or ability to comprehend english. I did mis-type one statement. "There is some evidence of other animals building up a resistance to medications like panacure when it is administered as a preventive dose." I did not mean to say animals -- rather I meant to say parasites. Thank you for correcting me.

Melis


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

I am erasing my posts.


----------



## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

an evil veterinarian? an evil petting zoo?

Sorry, Austin Powers just jumped in my head. 

Disclaimer: The poster of this message is by no means calling any veterinarian or petting zoo evil.

:lol:


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

> "Melissa obviously means to be helpful, but she doesn't truly understand what she is reading. She doesn't have the background in medicine to pass information on without the information becoming garbled."


I feel that this was an uncalled for statement by Dr. Frye. If you don't like something someone said, keep your personal feelings to yourself before bashing someone. If you want to do a follow-up to a post, do it with information.

Dan


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

*I*

I am erasing my posts.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Clarification*

David,



> Mr. Melissa Hare tried to use Tabaka’s scare tactics to stop a client of mine (a licensed veterinarian like Dr. Tanaka was talking about) from following a vet’s advice. Melissa did this because (surprise surprise) we don't really get along.


I am sorry that you feel that way regarding us getting along. I have nothing personal or professional against you, I am sorry to hear that you feel otherwise. 

Melis


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*btw...*

Last time I looked in the mirror I was still a woman, so I would appreciate you not referring to me as a man. 

Melis


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

*Mr. Hare*

I am erasing my posts.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm tired of you two bickering in public.

If you cannot say anything nice - don't bother the rest of us please.

s


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

*Scott*

You are right, of course, Scott. I'd like to appologize for everyone having to read my last few statements. I will try not to let Melissa get under my skin.


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

umm... thought the subject was "Bloated, lethargic Patricia" it's turning into personal attacks on each other. We got a Dr and a mod bickering and both agree this forum is for sharing info on darts?not opions on each other and attacks. You both should be ashamed of each other for carrying this on a forum for all of us to see. We should all have email and PM and I bet you two could have cleared this up better in there, then here. :idea:


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2004)

*Apology*

I again want to state how sorry I am for letting myself take the lower road. I erased my posts so that no further harm could be done on my part.


----------

