# Pumilio and calcium bearing substrate



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I suppose this belongs in food and feeding, but switching to a calcium bearing substrate seems to eliminate the need to treat pumilio froglets with calcium gluconate. At least it has for me.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Brent - 

I moved this into a new thread, as I feel it is an important topic to discuss. I know you have mentioned this on FrogNet before - but if you could give a little detail about the soil composition and method, it would be very helpful.

I have been having an issue with some of my pumilio froglets failing to thrive and demonstrating generalized seizing. The adult pair that produced the froglets hasn't always produced unhealthy froglets. The pair is FR - and the first two rounds of offspring thrived and reached adulthood. However, the last couple rounds of offspring have not fared well, despite the husbandry of raising the froglets has not changed. I have since begun treating all pumilio froglets with 11.5% calcium gluconate in ARS weekly (applied dropwise dorsally). 

I would like to change the way that I raise the young, and have been thinking about a calcium enriched soil.

Oz


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

The thread on clay-based substrates was very informative.. is it those same ingredients that have calcium in them as well or are you adding something else for the calcium?

Also how important is the direct contact between the frog and the substrate itself, when you're one who tends to put a thick layer of leaf litter above the substrate entirely?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's not really a case of direct contact if I understand Brent's talks directly, it has to do with the microfauna in these tanks. The leaf litter provides for a good habitat for the microfauna, and they get nutrients from the soil/substrate, and the theory is that they are passing this on to the frogs. The pumilio froglets in the tanks are feeding off this microfauna. This is one of the big reasons why I prefer to stress the large tank and leaving the froglets in tank for a few months method.

Think of it this way... one of the most popular microfauna invertabrates we like to feed pumilio froglets are springtails. These live in and around the soil/substrate, and can pick up nutrients from them. If they pick them up to any significant degree, then we can agree that they are what they eat. In Brent's tank, they are more calcium rich than what most of us raise our springtails on in our culturing containers (which may not contain a soil at all, much less a nutrient aka calcium rich one!). Of the microfauna are more calcium rich, and the froglets are eating the more calcium rich, they will develop less calcium issues... a theory on why they wouldnt' have these problems in the wild.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

KeroKero said:


> This is one of the big reasons why I prefer to stress the large tank and leaving the froglets in tank for a few months method.


I too think this is optimal - however, most (including myself) don't have tanks large enough to support multiple froglets for an extended period of time. My Red Bastis produce 5-7 froglets at a time, while I think that the microfauna can only really support 1-2 at most without being depleted.

My idea currently is to try and create the soil/microfauna environment in large rubbermaid containers, and then when the froglets emerge - set up smaller mini-tanks for each froglet that contain the established soil. 

As you mentioned - I don't feel that the culturing conditions for the springtails, or the froglet containers I am using with a LFS and leaf litter base are able to provide the appropriate nutrients.

In addition, I feel that my Yellow-Belly ('06) parents are lacking something nutritionally - as the first couple of batches of froglets thrived, while the most recent have failed. They have been in my care now for 18 months - with the first froglets being produced ~3 months after the adults went into their tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the wild, it has been shown that at herps will selectively modify thier diet based on available invertebrates to ensure adequate calcium in the diet. The primary source of calcium in wild invertebrates is located in soil arthropods. The calcium is provided not only by the calcium rich soil on the insect and potentially in the gut of the insect but the soil picked up incidentallyl when the invertebrate is captured. 

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

So are we talking about calcium carbonate as a soil ingredient or what is the recommended addition? Do the redart clays mentioned in the other thread have adequate calcium in them?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The calcium carbonate can be used as the soil additive. On analysis redart clay contains about 0.23% calcium as CaO. So if you are trying to match the calcium content of the clay then you would want 0.23% CaO. (see http://www.matrix2000.co.nz/MaterialsWe ... Art%20Clay ). Calcium bentonite contans about 4% calcium or so (depending on the purity of the clay) and maybe a better source if you want to go that route. Of course as I mentioned above calcium carbonate can also be used. 

The calcium content of the soil is variable depending on the soil as some soils can be very high in calcium (I am not a soil buff so I'll leave the discussion of the types with high calcium to those more qualified). 

Ed


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Somewhere didn't Brent list his redart clay/soil "recipe". I can't seem to find it???


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I've been using calcium montrimillate clay in my tanks and froglet tubs for a while now. I just sprinkle some on top of the substrate, before adding the leaf litter.
No scientific experiment or observation, but it doesn't appear to be hurting anything.


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

Would adding Repcal to the soil mixture help anything? I know it'll go bad quickly when exposed to the elements, but would having this present with the soil for accidental pick up and/or springtail ingestion/pickup have even a minor positive effect?

Or would it simply be cheaper/easier/more effective to just go out and get some CaCO3 for this purpose?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

OneTwentySix said:


> Would adding Repcal to the soil mixture help anything? I know it'll go bad quickly when exposed to the elements, but would having this present with the soil for accidental pick up and/or springtail ingestion/pickup have even a minor positive effect?
> 
> Or would it simply be cheaper/easier/more effective to just go out and get some CaCO3 for this purpose?


Just about the same thing (if I remember right) but with no D3.


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Dancing frogs said:


> I've been using calcium montrimillate clay in my tanks and froglet tubs for a while now. I just sprinkle some on top of the substrate, before adding the leaf litter.
> No scientific experiment or observation, but it doesn't appear to be hurting anything.


You beat me to it. I'm sure you meant Montmorillonite clay. It gives what I call not-soil (organic substrates) a much better texture along w/ something fine granular. Though the addition of actual rock/silt clay is needed to keep the monmorillonite in the soil long term. Plus it has a fairly wide range of minerality, not just Ca.

I have noticed how other people DON'T seem to notice that deficiencies in Ca dictate vibrance and then try to sway the lack by providing nearly toxic amounts of other substitutes to fill a completely different gap. If most had soil that was even half par to what they COULD have, there would be a noticable change in not just of the frogs, but the ease in sustainability of those frogs in a sizeable enclosure w/ minimal human involvement as a practicability. Other factors go in to play as to what cator to the micro fauna (springs) prductivity/availability that need to be employed, such as the not so micro (subterranean dwellers such as worms capable of transferring/switching layers {continually leaching minerals/deposited organics]). Though when dealing w/ anything offset/contained there is no indefinite life span to maintaining static optimal conditions. It'll last a 'good' long time though. Even w/ proper soil it probably should still be replaced at least every couple years if you are to rely on it as always providing the little extras.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I have noticed how other people DON'T seem to notice that deficiencies in Ca dictate vibrance and then try to sway the lack by providing nearly toxic amounts of other substitutes to fill a completely different gap. If most had soil that was even half par to what they COULD have, there would be a noticable change in not just of the frogs, but the ease in sustainability of those "endsnip

Please provide a citation that shows that color is related to calcium sufficiency.... 

What "nearly toxic amounts of other substitute" are you referring to? 

Also you need a variety of invertebrates to provide the frogs with sufficient variety to deal with thier nutritional needs, simply providing springtails will not meet this requirement. 
For acouple of example of the amount of variety in the diet see 

Toft, C. A. 1980. Feeding ecology of Panamanian litter anurans: patterns in diet and foraging mode. Journal Of Herpetology. 15(139-144) 

Donnelly, M. A. 1991. Feeding patterns of the strawberry poison frog, Dendrobates pumilio. Copeia. 3(723-730)

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Am I correct in assuming that the pumilio froglets are somehow getting Vit D3 into there diets too?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If I remember correctly, the enclosure Brent has used UVB so the frogs were making thier own D3 (and at least in studies in reptiles, the reptiles if provided with sufficient UVB and the ability to get out of it will regulate the exposure for synthesis..) 

Ed


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed, 
I'd like to read Donnellys article but can't seem to find the PDF on the web. Do you have a link or the electronic version that you could share?
Thanks,
Tim


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Tim - I just sent you the PDF. Due to copyright issues - I can't post it, but if there is anyone else interested shoot me a PM with your email.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks much OZ. 

Tim


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Where can one find montmorillonite clay?


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Anyone know a good source for this or other good vivarium clays?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

npaull said:


> Where can one find montmorillonite clay?


http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.c ... rraPond+SL


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I need to do some more reading, but I believe what's sold as soilmaster select is also montmorillonite clay. Pretty good pricing on this stuff, I think i will give it a try;

http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083365


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> npaull said:
> 
> 
> > Where can one find montmorillonite clay?
> ...


anyone have any thoughts about using this in Tad rearing containers/tank set ups??

S


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Interesting Shawn...

So having a substrate in the tad rearing container?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Dancing frogs":27l2g8ni][quote=npaull]Where can one find montmorillonite clay?[/quote]
> [url="http://www.king-cart.com/cgi-bin/cart.cgi?store=Mary0008&product=TerraPond+SL said:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are often two different montmorelite clays available. There are the calcium and sodium montmorelites, and I do know that the calcium clay does turn the water basic. I don't know about the sodium clay though. The other possibility is to mix enough peat into the clay to shift the pH. 

Ed


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