# Improving the adherence of super pig (and calcium plus too): coffee grinder



## MiguelP (Nov 21, 2013)

Like many of us, I don´t like the adherence of super pig to FF. I tried the mortar with little successful but I read here some person (don´t remember the name) that use a coffe grinder for that. 

Well, me and a friend of this forum (arkaitz) bought a grinder coffe for try....and the result is amazing: adherence is perfect and much less product is wasted (is greatly reduced calcium spots on the floor too). Even adhesion of calcium plus also is improved from my point of view. 

Some pics and video: 

The grinder: 

Sin título por miguelp280, en Flickr

Fresh super pig:

Sin título por miguelp280, en Flickr

Superpig mixed with calcium plus: 

Sin título por miguelp280, en Flickr

Result: 

Sin título por miguelp280, en Flickr

Texture: (arkatiz credits)





Flies with them: (arkaitz credits)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you do this, you should use the "pulse" setting. You want to be careful not to heat the product up by over-pulverizing it. Heat will oxidize and and very quickly degrade the vitamins. Using the "pulse" setting will help prevent overheating.

A mortar and pestle takes more effort, but will not overheat. Either way, regrinding will make a huge difference, as you have so nicely proved.
Thanks!


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## MiguelP (Nov 21, 2013)

Thanks for advice! Anyway, I pulse 5 seconds, stop 10 sec, pulse 5 sec, stop 10 sec, puls 5 sec.. and ready.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Great idea with the grinder! 
I do believe that it is generally preferred (for dart frogs at least) to feed Calcium and Superpig separately, due to the way the nutrients are absorbed in the gut. Using both together can reduce the effectiveness.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Perfect, and I see that you are doing small batches. You are obviously aware that doing a big batch and storing it, would not be a good thing. Even "cold-pulsed" it gets full contact with oxygen. That speeds it's oxidation and degradation. 
I think you are well aware of this, but some may not be. Small batches, just as you demonstrated, are perfect.


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## MiguelP (Nov 21, 2013)

I just do a weekly dose and keep in a small hermetic jar. Same with single calcium plus or super pig, i store the main jar/bag in the fridge and only open them once a week for refill the small jars. In my opinion this is the safety way to work with rephasy products. And of course throw away all the calcium plus, súper pig, vitamin a plus, etc every 6 months and buy new.

@dane, 

I don't understand you, do you mean that mix super pig and calcium plus is dangerous (at least for intestinally) to dart frogs? As I know the calcium plus contains a 6% of súper pig, so I assume it's safe (unless someone proves otherwise). My only concern for my mix (60% calcium plus 40% súper pig) is that vitamins / calcium are reduced when mixed with the super pig. Allen notes this here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-scientific-publication-pdfs-carotenoids.html 
in the article that is the subject of the post demonstrates the importance of carotenoids, so is why I do mix. 
Anyway, the vitamine decrease could be mitigated alternating the mixture with single calcium plus. 
It is significant, however, that Ed indicates in these post that he mix (50%-50%) calcium plus with astaxanthin without any negative effect (at least a priori).

Thanks for the imputs!


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

MiguelP said:


> @dane,
> 
> I don't understand you, do you mean that mix super pig and calcium plus is dangerous (at least for intestinally) to dart frogs? As I know the calcium plus contains a 6% of súper pig, so I assume it's safe (unless someone proves otherwise). My only concern for my mix (60% calcium plus 40% súper pig) is that vitamins / calcium are reduced when mixed with the super pig. Allen notes this here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-scientific-publication-pdfs-carotenoids.html
> in the article that is the subject of the post demonstrates the importance of carotenoids, so is why I do mix.
> ...


There are a few threads that discuss it, but this was the one that I came across first when I did a search:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/68855-mixing-supplements.html


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## rillaboratories (Mar 21, 2014)

If you use the coffee grinder to grind coffee beans and if there is an adherence of superpig residue....I wonder the possibilities


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

rillaboratories said:


> If you use the coffee grinder to grind coffee beans and if there is an adherence of superpig residue....I wonder the possibilities


Possibilities?

Superpig is certainly not for human consumption, and you wouldn't want to introduce substances containing caffeine into your viv.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

rillaboratories said:


> If you use the coffee grinder to grind coffee beans and if there is an adherence of superpig residue....I wonder the possibilities


Nothing like a red tint to your morning coffee....I wonder if it would make my green eyes blue?
JK
I would keep the superpig grinder for the frogs and another for humans. They are a pia to clean...
Either way my .02 
Good thread!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dane said:


> There are a few threads that discuss it, but this was the one that I came across first when I did a search:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/68855-mixing-supplements.html


Super pig doesn't contain vitamin A, D3 or E so there isn't anything to compete with the vitamins in the Calcium plus. Now may be some competition for uptake by some of the carotenoids but that hasn't been totally proven one way or another. In some species tested there was some competition, in others there was selective uptake. 

In some of my home trials, I increased the ratio of astaxanthin in the supplement I was using until the astaxanthin hit about 50% by volume basis (using measuring spoons for convience) without seeing any issues with the frogs. I didn't see any improvement in reproductions, eggs, survivorship of tadpoles, or froglets between 25% - 50% astaxanthin so I stopped those trials. Since that point, I've been replicating it with additional superpig added to the calcium plus. I'll be willing to comment on that in a year or two. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bcs TX said:


> Nothing like a red tint to your morning coffee....I wonder if it would make my green eyes blue?
> JK
> I would keep the superpig grinder for the frogs and another for humans. They are a pia to clean...
> Either way my .02
> Good thread!


In primates, too much canthaxanthin results in crystal deposits in the eyes. This is reversible. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## MiguelP (Nov 21, 2013)

I really appreciate your inputs Ed!

So you have not seen any beneficial effect? In the other post (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-scientific-publication-pdfs-carotenoids.html) you said that had noticed an improvement in reproduction. Now, you think that the improvement was unrelated with the use of asthaxantine? Maybe with the use of super pig (that containes more carotenoids, not only astaxanthine) the reproduction and survival rate of pumilio froglets is enhanced. In fact, the study of DUGAS et. al. uses more carotenoids than asthaxantine, that are all included in super pig (at least at my understanding).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MiguelP said:


> I really appreciate your inputs Ed!
> 
> So you have not seen any beneficial effect? In the other post (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-scientific-publication-pdfs-carotenoids.html) you said that had noticed an improvement in reproduction. Now, you think that the improvement was unrelated with the use of asthaxantine? Maybe with the use of super pig (that containes more carotenoids, not only astaxanthine) the reproduction and survival rate of pumilio froglets is enhanced. In fact, the study of DUGAS et. al. uses more carotenoids than asthaxantine, that are all included in super pig (at least at my understanding).


I think I was unclear. I saw improvement in reproduction once I increased the levels of astaxanthin in the supplement. I didn't see any further increase in benefits once the levels went between 25-50% and didn't see any negative impacts of it either. At that point I stopped the astxanthin trial and moved onto the next phase. 

At this time I'm comparing the results I had with 25% astaxanthin/75% Calcium plus by volume with 25% Super pig/75% Calcium plus by volume. 
In other words once I increased the level of carotenoids in the supplements I saw improvements in health, mortality and reproduction but I did not see any further benefits once the level of carotenoids reached a threshold and that remained the same up to a 50/50 mix. 

I should note that prior to trying the increased mixes I had the frogs on a supplement that only contained beta carotene for at least 8 months to force the frogs to metabolize other stores of carotenoids. So I'm starting with deficient frogs (which anecdotally plain Calcium Plus may be insufficient fully correct the issue quickly).

Some comments 

Ed


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