# Bio-Seal



## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

So I went to a reptile show yesterday and I found this really nice guy who has been breeding PDF's for around 30+ years. I talked with him for a bit and he said that it was perfectly safe to use GE bio-seal silicone in tanks. He said that he called GE up and they said that they never changed the original formula for their silicone and the bio-seal was for marketing purposes only. Since I was having a big problem finding non bio-seal silicone I said great and bought myself some. Only now I am freaking out, I already used it in my tank and I hope that I don't have to rip it apart (God help me!). Is bio-seal safe or not? I have heard it both ways numerous times and I don't know what to think now... Help!
~Peace


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## vivariman (Sep 26, 2007)

I have used it before with no ill effects to date. But it seems that most of the people that think it is dangerous *think* it is dangerous, they never really experienced any ill effects. I am a little concerned over the mold inhibitor, but many people have had no ill effects.

Caden


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## bug nick (Dec 5, 2008)

i built my tank about 8 months ago and used it and i haven't had any problems with my frogs. And alot of people i have talked to in my area used the same stuff and they like it. The only thing I have heard make sure it dries completely with no smell left.
nick


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Any reason not to trust the breeder with 30+ years of experience???

A phone call to GE would confirm his story... and put your mind at ease.



Peace said:


> So I went to a reptile show yesterday and I found this really nice guy who has been breeding PDF's for around 30+ years. I talked with him for a bit and he said that it was perfectly safe to use GE bio-seal silicone in tanks. He said that he called GE up and they said that they never changed the original formula for their silicone and the bio-seal was for marketing purposes only. Since I was having a big problem finding non bio-seal silicone I said great and bought myself some. Only now I am freaking out, I already used it in my tank and I hope that I don't have to rip it apart (God help me!). Is bio-seal safe or not? I have heard it both ways numerous times and I don't know what to think now... Help!
> ~Peace


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

I have two azureus which have been living in a tank with bio seal for over a year. They don't appear to mind the bio seal formula.

Use it.


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## GSXR_MURRHEE (Sep 16, 2006)

I've used it in all of my tanks, and have never had a problem.


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## Nick_ (Mar 24, 2008)

Bio-Seal is a simple sales tactic, a spin on the same product if ou will. Almost all ge silicone has "bioseal" in it (1 and 2). They simply emphasised it in thier newer packaging as a marketing ploy. Albiet its not called bioseal in the other types of silicone, the same compund is present.


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## yenrec (Jun 7, 2007)

as everyone else has said and will say... SAFE SAFE SAFE..


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

Ok, thanks everyone. I will add more siliconed drift wood to my tank today, thanks for putting my mind at ease.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Why even take the chance? Is my question. When there are alternatives that don't have the potential risk.

Home Depot even sells aquarium sealant. 

If there is a chance there are additional chemicals in it that could harm the frogs or tads why use it? Did anyone take the time to read the ingredient labels of aquarium silicone & compare it to one with bio-seal to see if the ingredients were different or the same? Don't the products with bio-seal say on the packaging that they are not safe or to be used in aquariums?

This discussion has been going on for some time. Not only in the dart frog word, but the aquarium hobby as well. Here are some additional links to threads on other sites discussing the topic.

Cichlid-Forum :: View topic - G.E. Silicone 1

Is all slicone the same? - Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community

Brands of silicone to use [Archive] - PlecoFanatics.com


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

GE Bio-seal silicone is all i have used on all of my vivs - the only problem i have had is the lighter shades of tan/brown take a few extra days to cure... Other than that - the stuff works awesome..


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> Did anyone take the time to read the ingredient labels of aquarium silicone & compare it to one with bio-seal to see if the ingredients were different or the same? Don't the products with bio-seal say on the packaging that they are not safe or to be used in aquariums?


I believe that GE silicone II has always said that it is not for use in aquariums. People have contacted GE since the "bioseal" addition and the reps have told them that there was no change in the actual formula, just the tube. I use nothing else.


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

Dane said:


> I believe that GE silicone II has always said that it is not for use in aquariums. People have contacted GE since the "bioseal" addition and the reps have told them that there was no change in the actual formula, just the tube. I use nothing else.


There is nothing on the bioseal tube that says it is not safe for aquarium use.. where did you get that information?


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

so i called the number on the back of the tube - tech support told me that the only complications that could arise from using this product for vivariums is that it may effect the ph of the water that is comes in contact with... so i could see why it may be a problem for aquariums - but what about vivariums that have drainage and no recirculation of water? Does anyone know if other silicone brands have the same effect on ph?


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

melissa68 said:


> Home Depot even sells aquarium sealant.


Really? You are very lucky. The only place in my neck of the woods that carries it, is a LFS that specializes in salt water fish. Even then all they have is the small 3 oz of clear all glass aquarium silicone. If I want black I have to order it and that takes for ever .

Anyways getting back to the original question I have always played it safe and used aquarium silicone.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Tuckinrim8 said:


> There is nothing on the bioseal tube that says it is not safe for aquarium use.. where did you get that information?


It's printed on the tube under the "Instructions for use".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you look closely on the MSDS for GE silicones you can note that some contain a organnotin compound which has antimildew properties If you look up these types of tin compounds one can see that there are some potential concerns. I would suggest checking to see if those compounds are in all of the types of silicone.

Ed


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## chrisc627 (Jan 3, 2009)

I think it would be more of a problem to fresh and saltwater tanks, not for terrariums.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From the MSDS for dibutyltin acetate the ingredient.. DOW CORNING CORPORATION Material Safety Data Sheet DOW CORNING(R) 3-6077 RTV SILICONE ABLATIVE KIT (CURING AGENT 

quote "Teratogens
CAS Number
Wt %
Component Name 1067-33-0 
3.0 - 7.0 
Dibutyltin diacetate 
Evidence of teratogenicity (birth defects)
in laboratory animals.
Reproductive Effects
CAS Number
Wt %
Component Name 1067-33-0
3.0 - 7.0 
Dibutyltin diacetate 
Evidence of reproductive effects in 
laboratory animals.
"endquote 

So it is an endocrine disruptor as well as a teratogen. As an endocrine disruptor it is probably effective in small doses..

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A little further digging indicates that is used to be used as an effective antifouling agent for water craft... 

Ed


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## Invert (Aug 20, 2008)

The difference between silicone I and II is what the silicone is suspended in, and therefore what it out-gasses as it cures. Type I uses an acid ( which is why it smells like vinegar), and type II uses some other chemicals. I can't remember what they are, but if you read the tube, it will tell you. The bio-seal has been in the mix for a long time, and is just a re-packaging ploy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On looking up the MSDS I was unable to locate a MSDS for GE I that contained the dibutyltin acetate while the MSDS for GE silicone II did contain the dibutyltin acetate.

Organotins used in polymerization materials have also been shown to have a good ability to migrate see further in http://www.ehponline.org/members/1973/004/04007.PDF and have been shown once they migrate to potentially be a source of toxicity 


Ed


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

lol i read someones post above said something about comparing the ingredients in aquarium silicone and GE brand, and about how GE says on the tube to not use in aquariums, the reason they put that on the GE tubes is because the brands like GE, dap, and any other brands are the ones that make the silicone for say all glass aquariums, and all the other aquarium manufactures. so when people think that they have to use "aquarium" silicone they pay 3 times more for a tube. GE is making money off people buying silicone for around the house and they are keeping the aquarium manufactures business by printing this on the label, making money off the aquarium manufactures also. basically when you buy an aquarium brand silicone you are just paying $10-$15 for a tube of GE that you could have picked up at home depot or lowes for $5. i havent used the GE silicone II but i have used the GE I, i havent had any problems, and by what all i have read about II seems like theres no problems with it either. i think ill use it with my next tank. 

theres nothing to risk when using GE brand silicone. if you like to spend more money for the same product, thats up to you, ill keep using GE brand.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

And that is why you need to look on the MSDS..for each of the products. It is required by law that any potentially dangerous chemicals or reactions have to be listed on the MSDS. 
That can enable you to identify when an item is repackaged however it doesn't eliminate the potential for small batch specific products made to certain specs which would cost more. 



Ed


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

For those of you complaining about the price of Aquarium Sealant - Glasscages.com sells clear & black in the 10.4 oz cartridges. 

$6 for clear
$8 for black

Glasscages.com - Aquarium Sealant is the link to their site.


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

plus shipping, which makes it come out to be around $15 a tube, if not more.
all im saying is that i have used GE silicone I clear tons of times with no problems, i have even used it in aquariums filled with water, and i like running down to lowes or home depot and picking it up for $5 or less, a tube, i have even come across a few tubes at big lots for $2.50 a tube. its the same thing as the aquarium manufacturers silicone. just my opinion.


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

I did some reading on dibutyltin diacetate. It's a catalyst, so it probably doesn't get tied up covalently in the polymer (I was originally thinking that the acetate groups would leave and the dibutyltin would make a cross link in the polymer, but it doesn't look like thats the case). With that said, I have my doubts that any significant amount of dibutyltin diacetate will linger in the viv after the curing process. It has a relatively low melting and boiling point, so it should evaporate readily and its insoluble in water.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the use with a silicone polymer it can also function as part of an anti-soil "varnish". There are a lot of variations on the formulation depending on the desired final product. 
However with respect to the toxicity issues, it is a known teratogen and dibutyltin diacetate can inhibit aromatase function in embryos. Aromatase disruption has been shown to cause early death in anuran embryos (on visual inspection) The embryos swell become "bloated" and cease developement. Aromatase inhibition has also been shown to be a cause of SLS. 

Ed


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

Ed said:


> In the use with a silicone polymer it can also function as part of an anti-soil "varnish". There are a lot of variations on the formulation depending on the desired final product.
> However with respect to the toxicity issues, it is a known teratogen and dibutyltin diacetate can inhibit aromatase function in embryos. Aromatase disruption has been shown to cause early death in anuran embryos (on visual inspection) The embryos swell become "bloated" and cease developement. Aromatase inhibition has also been shown to be a cause of SLS.
> 
> Ed


I totally agree on the toxicity aspect. I guess the question is whether or not this stuff is still present in the silicone when its fully cured and if its in a form that would be accessible to frogs. 

I'm undecided on this one, but I'm starting to reconsider which brand of silicone I'm going to use for the viv I'm building. Would you use GE II, Ed?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well since you asked my opinion.. I have never used it in any set ups at work or at home. Originally since I wasn't sure what was in the material.. now since I have a better idea.. no. 
It does make me wonder if this could be one of the intermittant causes of SLS we see in some frogs. (sounds like a good grad or post grad project...) 

I was looking for an abstrat I had seen earlier that had a discussion that the organotins were not that mobile once they got into the soil. This gives me some concerns as this means that it doesn't flush out of the tank but stays in the local enviroment. The frogs will consume the substrate when capturing the prey items. There are also some studies that show organotins are mobile in biological fluids but those studies are not that recent and I would prefer more updated information but assuming the worst case scenario, given what we know of the permeability of anuran skin it could be a concern. 

The anecdotal reports of I've used it for years with no problems are not really useful with respect to things that could cause early embryo or egg death as the cause is not apparent. 

Ed


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

Ed,
I pulled up some MSDS's on GE silicone II and there is no mention of dibutyltin diacetate or any other organotins. What makes you think that this stuff is in GE silicone II?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you pull up the GE MSDS, they list on their that there is a proprietary mixture and get around disclosing it. However if you start back digging you can pull up the information. Apparently dibutyltin diacetate is probably one of the most commonly used catalysts for silcone products that on curing emit ammonia and dibutyl alcohol (off the top of my head try looking in the online patent information). 

I'm a little pressed for time and energy but I can probably track down the original information later on.. (or maybe I was looking at the wrong thing). 

Ed


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## garweft (Mar 11, 2008)

Bioseal aside, does anyone know with absolute certainty that these other compounds aren't found in Aquarium sealant as well. If it is a major catalyst I don't see how they could get around using it in aquarium sealant.


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

garweft said:


> Bioseal aside, does anyone know with absolute certainty that these other compounds aren't found in Aquarium sealant as well. If it is a major catalyst I don't see how they could get around using it in aquarium sealant.


This catalyst speeds up the reaction (and influences more cross linking), but it isn't a necessary component for silicone to work.


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

I did some digging and found that GE silicone II window and door DOES contain dibutyltin diacetate. GE uses dibutyltin diacetate suspended in toluene as a solvent-based released coating system, so the organotin is residual and doesn't leave during the curing process. In other words, its designed to coat the silicone surface upon curing and remain there. This system (GE product grade SS4164) is probably a main component of BioSeal.

I don't know how mobile the dibutyltin diacetate is after the curing process, but it's something to consider since its a known teratogen.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

like garweft asked, I think we should check if any of the other silicones are using it also


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

The MSDS for DAP aquarium silicone doesn't list any organotins and neither does the MSDS for GE silicone I window and door. 

The problem is that all these MSDS's are made by different companies and some are less stringent than others. For example, a MSDS for silicone intended for construction won't necessary list dibutyltin because it is very little threat to the user, whereas silicone coating thats intended for baking sheets would pose a significant threat and would definitely have to disclose dibutyltin in it's MSDS (most countries don't allow any organotins in the silicone coating of baking sheets).

So, what I'm saying is that its often hard to tell which silicone brands have organotins in them (especially if the product isn't 'food grade'). Complicating things further, is the fact that (in GE's case) the organotin is part of a proprietary ingredient (BioSeal) that the company often tries to sidestep disclosing.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

So if aquarium silicones could possibly contain them, would there really be one safer than the other? What would be the easiest ways to find out about them?


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

ChrisK said:


> So if aquarium silicones could possibly contain them, would there really be one safer than the other? What would be the easiest ways to find out about them?


The most conclusive way would be to call the manufacturers and ask specifically if the product contains any organotin catalysts. 

Although, I'm under the impression that DAP and GE silicone I don't contain an organotin catalyst because they are a sort of bare-bones acetoxy rtv silicone. Whereas ge silicone II is a bit more of a high tech and high performance silicone that uses a more complicated curing process (I think its some combination of an oxime/alkoxy condensation curing rtv)


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

OK, but they only can really be found in clear in most areas - that's probably the cause of the discussion mostly


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

ChrisK said:


> OK, but they only can really be found in clear in most areas - that's probably the cause of the discussion mostly


True, but if it is available in your area, I would opt for one of those over silicone II w&d. And thats not to say that you are putting your frogs at risk if you do decide to use silicone II w&d, its not going to kill your frogs. It's hard to tell how mobile the organotin is and if it will even affect your frogs, but as Ed said, it could potentially cause embryo death and/or SLS in developing frogs if it is getting into the frog's system.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As a further point with the dibutyltin acetate is that it is possible that the dibutyltin acetate is also contaminated with tributyltin acetate. Apparently it is difficult to prevent the tributyltin acetate from being a contaminate. 

As for mobility this may help give some ideas. 
ScienceDirect - Environmental Pollution : Assessment of adsorption behavior of dibutyltin (DBT) to clay-rich sediments in comparison to the highly toxic tributyltin (TBT) 

Dibutyltin acetate is known to leach from pvc pipes as it is used for heat stabilization in the pvc so while we are discussing two different polymers I would hesitate to characterize it as non-mobile from the polymer. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

A good project or study would be to set up some type of poll/study to see how many froglets were successful or had those characteristics with and without the GE II, but the people who would be participating probably either use it in all of their tanks or in none of them


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

how would you determine that the problem was the bioseal and not say nutrition...??? 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah that's exactly what I meant, the same person would need to do it with say pairs of the same frogs doing exactly the same things - but one pair is in a bioseal tank and the other isn't. as it is most people are probably using it in all or none of their tanks so noone could probably give any data on it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Chris,

even then it would be difficult to rule out nutritional effects as retinol deficiency can be seen within the same clutch... 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

This is a tough one. so what indicated that the d.a. was causing embryo death and sls and not nutrition in the first place?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is a known teratogen... which indicates that it automatically disrupts development.. so it could easily be a problem with SLS or early embryo death. 


Ed


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## JFrog (Dec 11, 2007)

Is the best bet for the health of frogs in the hobby, especially those that are hit hardest by sls, to just not use any silicone when possible? This sounds like the only way to be sure to reduce the possibility of birth defects and embryo death. Even some of the most experienced breeders fight with sls and embryo death, why would we want to complicate things more by adding possible toxins? 

Hey Ed - I am really interested in how your enclosures are constructed, at work and at home. If there's anyone who knows about adding possible toxins to a tank, it's you. I think an example and a description of how you do things may be an inspiration for froggers. If you had a couple of pics that would be great.

J


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JFrog said:


> Is the best bet for the health of frogs in the hobby, especially those that are hit hardest by sls, to just not use any silicone when possible? This sounds like the only way to be sure to reduce the possibility of birth defects and embryo death. Even some of the most experienced breeders fight with sls and embryo death, why would we want to complicate things more by adding possible toxins?
> 
> Hey Ed - I am really interested in how your enclosures are constructed, at work and at home. If there's anyone who knows about adding possible toxins to a tank, it's you. I think an example and a description of how you do things may be an inspiration for froggers. If you had a couple of pics that would be great.
> 
> J



There are a lot of things that can cause SLS and I'm still willing to bet nutrition is the leading cause. 

I use clear 100% silicone without bioseal... once it has cured its not a risk as they don't contain the organotin. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

OK question for Ed - or anyone else knowledgeable on the subject: I scraped out most of the GE II from the walls of a tank, here's how it looked before the foam, more silicone and peat moss: 










Trust me it's been quite the b1tch to get out, before I go too crazy on it, down around the edges in the bottom where it seals for waterproof-ness, and in some of the corners there is still probably some of the GE II left that is pretty hard to get to, if I just go on top of it with regular silicone and "seal" the sealed parts with it, would that be "sealed" enough on top of the GE II that is left in there that the GE II would no longer be an issue?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That is probably more than sufficient to stabilize the bioseal. The silicone will prevent moisture from reaching it and that should keep it in place. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks Ed music to my ears, getting into those edges and corners without ripping out all the original silicone that came with the tank too woulda been a no-go


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Waiiiiiiiiiiiiiit a minute, that was Ed's 4,000th post - CONGRATS!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually I hadn't even realized the number of posts I had... Its weird given that I tend to only visit a few sections of the forum. 

Ed


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## gold3nku5h (Jul 24, 2008)

Why is there so many threads on this exact same subject?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Partly because people may not use the search feature before starting a new thread. Do a search for supplement for a comparision example..... 

Ed


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## gthorpe2 (Jul 1, 2008)

So people that have voted safe, do you use the GEII with bio-seal in your tanks now? Any problems? Have you had success with breeding and the froglets turning out alright? I just put my tank together and used the GEII with bio-seal and now I'm fraking out. I don't want to spend $50 on a frog and it die within a month.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I don't think it would cause your frogs to die as many people used it safely, i think the worries are more about it possibly contributing to sls in froglets and damaging embryos


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

gthorpe2 said:


> So people that have voted safe, do you use the GEII with bio-seal in your tanks now? Any problems? Have you had success with breeding and the froglets turning out alright? I just put my tank together and used the GEII with bio-seal and now I'm fraking out. I don't want to spend $50 on a frog and it die within a month.


I don't think the blanket statement that bio-seal will cause SLS or embryo death has been made anywhere. At this point, there is come speculation that certain inhibitors may be present and that is enough to cause most people to avoid bio-seal as a simple precaution. 

On the other hand, there have been many many many tanks built using silicone with bio-seal. We have used it in a fair number of our tanks and have witnessed many of our breeders produce healthy offspring within their vivariums.

Should you be worried? Probably not. Could bio-seal be responsible for SLS and egg deaths? Possibly, but unlikely.

I think the bigger point Ed has made several times is that you would do much better to focus on providing the proper nutrition to the adult frogs for the prevention of SLS then to worry about bio-seal in your silicone. 

And just as importantly, armed with this information you can personally choose which silicone you might use for any future construction projects.

Personally, as long as your silicone has cured completely I would not worry about putting frogs into your tank. But that is just my opinion.

Good luck with your first frog!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> I don't think the blanket statement that bio-seal will cause SLS or embryo death has been made anywhere. At this point, there is come speculation that certain inhibitors may be present and that is enough to cause most people to avoid bio-seal as a simple precaution.


Actually the organotin (and its contaminants) that is the concern is present in the GE Silicone II, that isn't speculation.... the unknown quantity is how mobile the organotin is in the terraria. We do know that it is present on the surface of the silicone that contains it as this is the source of the mildicide claims. In addition, GE can claim there has been no change to thier formulation as it wasn't added as a mildicide but as a catalyst for curing and the mildicide is a secondary benefit. 

We do know that it has a some level of biocidial effect on contact but as I noted above it is currently unknown if it is permanently bound to the silicone or has some level of mobility. 

Egg death would be hard to rule out given that there should be some level of natural death of the embryos and (no offense) I would have a hard time giving credit to a claim of 100% development of all egg deposited... 


Some comments,

Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> Actually the organotin (and its contaminants) that is the concern is present in the GE Silicone II, that isn't speculation.... the unknown quantity is how mobile the organotin is in the terraria. We do know that it is present on the surface of the silicone that contains it as this is the source of the mildicide claims. In addition, GE can claim there has been no change to thier formulation as it wasn't added as a mildicide but as a catalyst for curing and the mildicide is a secondary benefit.
> 
> We do know that it has a some level of biocidial effect on contact but as I noted above it is currently unknown if it is permanently bound to the silicone or has some level of mobility.
> 
> ...


Isn't that what I said? 

So organotin (and its contaminants) is present in silicone labeled with bio-seal - that we know. I also agree that we don't know what effect that might have, if any. Until we have more conclusive data we are just left to speculate.

Suggesting eggs will die if silicone w/ bio-seal is present is just speculation. They very well may, but we wouldn't know the exact cause for sure. None of our frogs (to my knowledge) has ever produced 100% good eggs that develop into 100% health tads that morph into 100% healthy froglets. That includes frogs kept in tanks with bio-seal and tanks without. To infer that I was claiming 100% of the eggs produced in our tanks with bio-seal produced viable offspring is a bit of a stretch Ed. 

Conversely, I am very comfortable making the statement that we have seen many many parent raised offspring produced in tanks that have silicone with bio-seal. From that I can only deduce that the organotin (and its contaminants) is not 100% lethal to frogs, eggs or tadpoles.

I am also very comfortable saying that eggs produced in an environment free from organotin (and its contaminants) will not be 100% viable.

So, to recap what I said, and what I *thought* you were saying:


Silicone with bio-seal contains organotin (and its contaminants)
Organotin (and its contaminants) have been shown to be teratogens through previous scientific study
To what level the organotin (and its contaminants) is available within the vivarium is unknown and to what level it may affect developing eggs, tads, or frogs is unknown at this time.
Silicone w/ bio-seal including organotin (and its contaminants) is not 100% lethal to eggs, tadpoles, or frogs
As a precaution, Ed does not use silicone w/ bio-seal in his tanks.
As a precaution, JL-Exotics does not use silicone w/ bio-seal during new tank construction, but will not be replacing tanks that do contain silicone w/ bio-seal until they have reached their useful lifespan (or such time that Ed can dig up or conduct peer reviewed research that implicates organotin (and its contaminants) in dart frog embryo death above normal control group mortality rates not related to animal husbandry.)
Improper nutrition and husbandry practices are linked to SLS and premature embryo death and most folks would get the most benefit from impoving on those as preventative measures before they worry about organotin (and its contaminants).

Good discussion, but I just don't think it's fair to scare folks with speculation at this point. Ripping apart a brand new tank doesn't seem warranted in my opinion, but that should be up to the person building the tank to decide.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Jeremy,

Actually you stated (and I quoted it in my post above) that the inhibitor MAY BE PRESENT when it is present. That is what made me clarify the point. 

As for inhibition of proper development of eggs... 

what we do know.. dibutyltin and tributyltin (the active ingredients (and contaminents)) in the organotin component of the mildicide in GE II are known to inhibit aromatase activity (see for example tributyltin toxicity frog - Google Scholar) 

Now we do know that disruption of aromatase in anuran eggs can lead to embryo death as well as SLS. There is a recent peer reviewed article in Applied Herpetology (not available online yet) that links these together (if I remember correctly).. 
This does not include the other endocrine disruption and ecotoxicity effects of these two compounds. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Good discussion, but I just don't think it's fair to scare folks with speculation at this point. Ripping apart a brand new tank doesn't seem warranted in my opinion, but that should be up to the person building the tank to decide.


I don't see where I specifically told anyone to rip it out of thier tanks or even suggested that directly. 

Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Jeremy,
> 
> Actually you stated (and I quoted it in my post above) that the inhibitor MAY BE PRESENT when it is present. That is what made me clarify the point.
> 
> ...


Fair enough! But my comment was that the organotin and related goodies MAY be present in the vivarium environment. I think that is the gap we need closed on this question. Yes, it's in the bio-seal silicone, but is it free to transfer into the biosystem? That's the research we need. Perhaps If was a better at choosing my words it would look more like we were in agreement


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> I don't see where I specifically told anyone to rip it out of thier tanks or even suggested that directly.
> 
> Ed


You didn't. That comment was just in reference to gthorpe2's concern for his/her new viv. You did share evidence that organotin and company are found within silicone w/ bio-seal and you shared evidence that organotin and related compounds have been associated with anuran embryo death and possibly SLS. (all much appreciated btw)

I just think it's fair to point out that the information we have is still inconclusive and nobody should "freak out" just yet - mostly for those folks that don't have the fortitude to digest every post in this thread


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Fair enough! But my comment was that the organotin and related goodies MAY be present in the vivarium environment. I think that is the gap we need closed on this question. Yes, it's in the bio-seal silicone, but is it free to transfer into the biosystem? That's the research we need. Perhaps If was a better at choosing my words it would look more like we were in agreement


Maybe if I had a little more sleep I wouldn't be so cranky. 

Ed


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

Ed said:


> Maybe if I had a little more sleep I wouldn't be so cranky.
> 
> Ed


Im sorry that just made me laugh...

I did however find this thread EXTREMLY informative... although the breakdown would have been nice befor I spent a couple hours trying to digest what had been said...

In my new tank I opted for GE silicone 1, and just all around feel better about it!


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> Maybe if I had a little more sleep I wouldn't be so cranky.
> 
> Ed


Ha! Now THAT I can relate too


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## BDport (Feb 17, 2009)

So ..not intending to beat up an important but already much beaten topic...

What silicone brand do aquarium builders use?
That seems like the stuff we should be using.

Any research been done in this direction?

BD


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

BDport said:


> So ..not intending to beat up an important but already much beaten topic...
> 
> What silicone brand do aquarium builders use?
> That seems like the stuff we should be using.
> ...



This would be my question too. I have approx 10 tubes of Silicone II sitting around waiting to be used and would like to know what other people are using instead of it.

-Nish


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## BDport (Feb 17, 2009)

Aqueon Products 100% Silicone Aquarium Sealant

Anyone have a tube of this stuff around?
I'd like to know exactly whats in this and where its from.

BD


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

nish07 said:


> This would be my question too. I have approx 10 tubes of Silicone II sitting around waiting to be used and would like to know what other people are using instead of it.
> 
> -Nish


Think you could trade it back in for silicone I?


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Yeah, I think I can. I'm going to take it back to Lowes or Home Depot (whichever I got it from) and just trade it in for Silicone I. I guess the stuff doesn't have the organotins but also doesn't stick quite as well (though I'm guessing it's negligible).

I've heard Ed quote that both the GE Silicone I and later the "Clear" GE Silicone I was free of organotins. Does anyone know if it's only the clear stuff that's free of them? I was wanting to use black behind my peat/tree fern background.

-Nish


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## beachbabe18509 (Oct 29, 2007)

I've never seen GE Silicone I in anything but clear.....


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

It comes in black. It's on the net but haven't looked for it specifically in Home depot or Lowes.

-Nish


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

nish07 said:


> Yeah, I think I can. I'm going to take it back to Lowes or Home Depot (whichever I got it from) and just trade it in for Silicone I. I guess the stuff doesn't have the organotins but also doesn't stick quite as well (though I'm guessing it's negligible).
> 
> I've heard Ed quote that both the GE Silicone I and later the "Clear" GE Silicone I was free of organotins. Does anyone know if it's only the clear stuff that's free of them? I was wanting to use black behind my peat/tree fern background.
> 
> -Nish


I was unable to locate any GE silicone I that contained either bioseal or the organotin. 

Ed


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I took back all of my Silicone II and purchased Silicone I black (they have bronze and clear but the bronze and clear need to be ordered). You can get this from Ace Hardware You can order online and have it ship to the nearest store for free as they do not usually carry the colored types in the store. Will see how it goes.

-Nish


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Let me restate that. The black and bronze need to be ordered. They only carry the clear in the stores (as far as I've seen). Some places carry the bronze or so I've heard.

-Nish




nish07 said:


> I took back all of my Silicone II and purchased Silicone I black (they have bronze and clear but the bronze and clear need to be ordered). You can get this from Ace Hardware You can order online and have it ship to the nearest store for free as they do not usually carry the colored types in the store. Will see how it goes.
> 
> -Nish


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## Imperial_Aquatics (Aug 27, 2009)

after replies in the thread where I was asking about cure times, I was referred to this thread. 

After tracking down all the threads here regarding this subject, I decided to call GE myself and talk to them. 

As has been stated, Bioseal has ALWAYS been part of the formula. When asked directly about the safety of the product when used with terrariums containing animals I was advised by GE that the product was not safe for terrarium use.

I'm glad I found this out before I had gone and built any elaborate tanks with it. As it was, I had to strip down quite a few tanks where I had just used it for attaching screen panels.


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## Petersi (Jan 31, 2008)

I would think it is safe I use Mildew resistant silicone in my and my frogs are fine.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Part of the problem is that the organotins have a number of effects and visually inspection doesn't give a clue.. for example these could cause an increase in egg mortality.. which would be virtually undectable without a huge number of animals and eggs to compare.. 

Ed


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

I've used GE II in fish keeping for almost 3 years and in herp (not just darts) for a year.


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## Parkway Drive (Aug 21, 2009)

johnyrocks you crack me up.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Parkway Drive said:


> johnyrocks you crack me up.


???????????


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## Parkway Drive (Aug 21, 2009)

johnyrocks said:


> ???????????


this thread was made in 2009. Not a bad thing, i just think its funny.


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought there was a thread that came out a few years back discussing the "bio seal" marketing ploy for GE2. If I recall someone contacted GE and they stated that the Bio seal was present in GE1, the only difference being Ge2 featured the bio seal ad on the newly designed tube. I may be way off base here so don't quote me on that.. 

Chris


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

Just realized the age of this thread..


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

It's all good. Old threads ftw lol. Well, what you said is 100% right. GE I and GE II both have Bioseal in it. but only GE II advertises it. Thats why I think the whole thing is silly


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

johnyrocks said:


> It's all good. Old threads ftw lol. Well, what you said is 100% right. GE I and GE II both have Bioseal in it. but only GE II advertises it. Thats why I think the whole thing is silly


 
Actually no, GE I does not contain bioseal.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tuckinrim8 said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought there was a thread that came out a few years back discussing the "bio seal" marketing ploy for GE2. If I recall someone contacted GE and they stated that the Bio seal was present in GE1, the only difference being Ge2 featured the bio seal ad on the newly designed tube. I may be way off base here so don't quote me on that..
> 
> Chris


GE I does not contain bioseal. The labeling of antimold was secondary to the usage of organotins in the formulation. The addition of the organotins allows them to act as a catalyst which results in the material not having a strong odor of vinegar, as it results in the release of ammonia which in the low levels doesn't smell as strong. This is why it is often used for indoor products as people don't complain about the odor.. 

The fact that it acts as an antimold indicates that it is biologically active on the surface of the caulk. 

Ed


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## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

Thank you Ed, I appreciate your clarification and as always I value your wealth of knowledge pertaining to our hobby. 

Chris


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes, the thread is two years old, so should I use my GE II silcone or return it to Lowes???

Steve


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Steverd said:


> Yes, the thread is two years old, so should I use my GE II silcone or return it to Lowes???
> 
> Steve


That is up to you. There are people that feel that since they haven't directly observed an issue that can be attributed to the organotins that it is fine to use. There are others who feel that since the risk is easy enough to remove, that it is worth it to not use the GEII. 

Ed


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## ocellaris123 (Jun 13, 2011)

I would return it just to be safe. Why take the risk when dealing with living creatures.


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

ocellaris123 said:


> I would return it just to be safe. Why take the risk when dealing with living creatures.


Yes, I think I will return it to Lowes tonight and get the GE Silicone I.
Does it come in Black? How does clear look when covered with peat or coco fibers? Does the color even matter then?

Thanks guys!
steve


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Steverd said:


> Yes, I think I will return it to Lowes tonight and get the GE Silicone I.
> Does it come in Black? How does clear look when covered with peat or coco fibers? Does the color even matter then?
> 
> Thanks guys!
> steve


There are colored versions out there, you just have to look for them. A all black silicone is also sold for use in aquaria, you just have to track it down. Twin Oaks sells it (see Glasscages.com - Home) 

Ed


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

ocellaris123 said:


> I would return it just to be safe. Why take the risk when dealing with living creatures.


Exchanged it today. Like you said, I really don't think its worth the risk for the few minutes it took to return it.

Steve


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

I got this from another blog site it seemed helpful.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

not at all...I work in a hospital...and never worked for them. Just something they sent me long time ago and figured i'd post it. GE II has better all round (plastics, rock...etc.) adhesive properties than GE I. Although GE I and II rate glass binding at 7, GE I holds glass better (and this is not GE telling me this, I discovered this myself along with many others. Both can be used, you just need to get the windows and doors (blue tube) and not bath and kitchen (red tube, has mildew prevention, fungicides..etc.). The one difference between GE I and II besides binding properties is the way they cure. GE I cures via acetic acid and GE II via ammonia. I just figeured I'd post this stuff to clear the confusion I thought everyone had known. The disclaimer about not for aquariums is, from what i had known to be circulating (not sure of the truthfulness about it though) is that GE was sued when a big aquarium fell apart and lots of water damage...etc. to this persons house. Now the questions remains whether this person applied the silcone properly and allowed it to cure properly before water was added. I know i leave it for at least a week. From what i've heard (again not sure of its validity) is that AGA uses GE I and the disclaimer previosly mentioned seems to point that without naming AGA. Take all this for whats its worth...just additional information. I've always used GE I without problems and many advanced reefers use it to. Hope this clears it up.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If it doesn't off gas acetic acid (the strong vinegar odor) then it uses the bioseal (organotins) to catalyze the reaction to release ammonia instead. All of the GE II silicone uses it, regardless if it is has bioseal/mildew resistent on the label or not. 

Ed


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## d-prime (Sep 29, 2008)

As an experiment, I built a background coated with GE II and coco fiber and mounted some plants. At first I noticed very strong root growth from the bromeliads as well as an anthurium, until they hit the background. The root tips in contact with the properly cured background turned brown overnight. I believe the bioseal additive has an effect of root growth. 

As a result, I will be using GE I in my upcoming build.


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## peddro (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone for this post! ive used ge II for all my builds so far but wont be for my future ones!!


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

As this thread is now almost 7 years old and full of fantastic information I figured I would necro it. 

I am curious if anyone who has used GE II silicone is able to provide any additional experiences since 2009. Have you found the vivs with GE II have less successful egg development? Froglets with SLS? Deaths of adults or frogs? Anything else out of the ordinary?


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