# 72 gallon bow front - First Viv



## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Hey guys, so I'm relatively new to the vivariums. So why not start with a doozie. Yeah that's my logic.. Either way, I figure - if I'm going to do the work, I might as well do it once, and do it right. 

With that said.. I picked up a really nice 72 gal bow front the other day for a STEAL. I'm somewhat familiar with the concepts, and different methods for Viv builds, but need some guidance for my particular build. Now I've done my research, but found conflicting results for filtration. 

I plan on having about 4 inches of water in the base of the tank.. Figure that should be about 20 gallons in a 72 gallon tank.. So do I drill a whole for drainage and hookups for a canister filter? Or use a submersible filter. 

As of right now, I had planned on doing a false bottom using hydroton while using GS to contain them in areas of land, or where substrate will be. I will attach pictures to show GS hardscape.

I think the main cause of my confusion is that I saw a Viv build in a 40 gal breeder where the guy never filtered his water.. Only ran pumps, one out of a waterfall, and the other across a horizontal drip bar running the length of the tank. So I started thinking where the hell is his filter?! I don't think he has one. 
This one:





I also strive to accomplish a similar look to that of "grim's" peninsula tank, only more water..

Please, any guidance, ideas, or help would be great..


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

If he did an update on that tank:

- much of the moss species he added will likely have died (it looks like preserved moss from floral arrangements or 'pillow moss' or 'frog moss' which almost certainly died and rotted.) 

- unless he did regular water changes, the water will be a tan from the tannins leaching out from the wood/plant material.

- hard to say about the plants, but he may have needed more light


That all aside the design and implementation was rather good. I was impressed with the rock substrate he used in the foreground and how well it all blended and the fogger never fails to impress. (Although misters will yield 100 fold better results, foggers do look neat.)

If I had built that tank I would have drilled and bulkheaded the back glass of the tank (not the bottom) a few inches up from the bottom and run a canister filter, filled with charcoal laden pantyhoses, to drive the waterfall. Without the charcoal to remove the tannins, they build up and take the water from the clear look in the video to the tea we are all familiar with. Bioballs were there for ease of use. He could have used eggcrate or foam just as easily. Eggcrate works well to help keep the total water volume up in the system, but it's a pain to work with. The more water in any system the more stable it will be chemically speaking. (The solution to pollution is dilution. At least until you can remove/degrade it.)

Your tank with 20 gallons will do best with a small canister, even if it's just to help keep the water moving around. Vivariums/paludariums need to keep the water turning over to avoid anaerobic conditions which can easily build up in our bioload heavy environments. I like to use the cheap Cascade 500's and one of those should work fine with your tank. If you bulkhead the back, priming can be a little challenging, but I found that when priming the pump to remove the return line hose. This reduces the pressure and helps to get the water started moving. Once the water begins to flow out of the OUT spout, I flip it OFF, reattach the OUT hose and allow water to flow until it equalizes, then plug in and it works great. Drilling the back of the tank allows you put the tank on whatever surface you want and makes moving it a lot easier. I broke a tank when it shifted because the weight of the tank ended up on a bottom drilled bulkhead, so now I never drill the bottom of any tanks anymore. Made life a LOT easier.

Personally, I don't like the raw GS look. I feel like it could be covered in something to work or look better. GS is a great glue and construction tool but I've always seen it as a initial layup or glue material that if it's exposed it's because I did something wrong or missed a spot. Though the black is preferential to the white/yellow ascetically speaking.

The ferns were a good choice for the high water environment and hopefully took over the back like he hoped. The moss, unless, I'm mistaken, probably didn't take off. Unless you personally collect the wild moss yourself, or buy if from someone in a wet, live, state, it's just there to look nice for the next week before it begins to rot. Rarely does it ever come back in my experience, and usually when it does it's not the live tissue, but the spores.


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

I think that 72 bows are all tempered glass but cant remember. I would deft check. I found a site online and it said you could check if glass is tempered with an LCD screen. Tempered glass will make the screen appear to have lines, regular glass wont. and I think he is just using a pre-filter may have a charcoal bag in there also. seems to work i guess..


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Vivworks and Sloanman thanks for the quick reply. The tank is tempered and I'm now coming to realize it can not be drilled. I will have to run all feeds up and out. Now, do any of you have suggestions? I guess it's less work.. But might be hard to disguise.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Although id like to avoid running pipes out of the tank, and rather use something submersible that I can feed through a water feature. Not sure of the products out there and their quality. Would it help if I minimized the amount of water?


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

I think I have a few options.. (A) I can use a small internal/submersible filter, and then just use some rio pumps to supply the water features. (B) Orrr I can still have a sump with a HOB-filter and just run PVC up and out the back, then back up and expelled through misters. (C) Then there's just sumping with a canister filter.

I would like to keep costs down, so let's keep that in mind. Also convenience and accessibility when it comes to water changes and maintenance. 

I like each for different reasons.. (A) no PVC out the top, and water never leaves the tank.. (B) Its more convenient for water changes, and I already have a HOB filter.. (C) I like because it's the "right" way to do it. Fully accessible and convenient. 

Again, I cannot drill this tank.. Tempered glass.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

I know there's some knowledgable people out there!


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

With your volume of of water, being that prominent of a feature in your design, in-tank filtration will not be enough. You will need to have a sizable and easily accessible and exchangeable activated carbon filter. The easiest way I've done this in hundreds of builds is using a canister. You can still use one without drilling you'll just need to use a pump to prime it. Set up everything, and use a pump to push water up into the hoses of the filter. Remove pump, turn on canister. Bad thing is if it looses suction you'll need to re-prime it again with the pump so make sure you can get to the hose. 

Sumps and other ideas work too, but now you're looking into more work and cost which you said you don't want.

Good luck. Should be neat to see what you come up with.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Yeah I was talking to a friend and he also said to use a canister. I'm thinking about using the Ehiem classic.. It says it's good up to 40 gallons. Should this be good enough? It's more than I was hoping to spend.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

What are you planning to put in this tank? Whatever you decide to stock it with, the animal must be paludarium safe (make sure it can swim in water well). It looks like a good start, I hope it goes well for you.


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

I was going to recommend the same one.


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

I saw somewhere where a guy used a rio pump in tank to a set of reverse osmosis canisters that hung on back of tank. it went thru 3 canisters before coming out the last one down a water fall. they sell them at Lowes and HomeDepot ...stage would be pre=filter-charcoal=polisher.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

I was hoping to do some darts, not sure what species.. I cut the water feature area down by half, so it's like a narrow shallow space about a foot long. If you have any suggestions on what to keep, id love to hear it.. My intention was darts. 

Also I have seen so many people use a sticky moss mix that they coat the back of the tank with or certain spots.. Know the ingredients?


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

I just checked out the RO filters and they're just too expensive for my first build.. Maybe down the line. I'll probably go with the canister and expel through a waterfall in the corner. 

I'm also thinking about incorporating a misting system from must kings down the line. 

Definitely going to need some good big pieces of drift wood too.

Thanks guys, I promise this Viv will be worth the watch.


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)




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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

there like 20 bucks a can at Lowes
...but yeah the classic is plug and play.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

What brand is that?


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Let me make myself more clear.. There will still be about 15-20 gal throughout the tank, just the majority under the false bottom. Only a small portion will be accessible by inhabitants


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

sorry I just pick a random pic but that's similar to what they have at the box stores


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

if it was mine I would go with the classic that we talked about before


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

or even cheaper is the c80 for up to 20gals...Rapids C80 Canister Filter - Up to 20 gal. | thatpetplace.com


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## SLOANMAN (Feb 10, 2014)

Dartkart21 said:


> Let me make myself more clear.. There will still be about 15-20 gal throughout the tank, just the majority under the false bottom. Only a small portion will be accessible by inhabitants


 yeah I get it. there will only be about 4 inches of water in the bottom and your concern is getting to the water level with a pump or a pipe because you cant drill.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

You should be able to do darts, as long as at least 2/3 of the floor (preferably more) is available for the darts to walk on around (as in, no water in at least 2/3 of the tank) and the parts that do have water are maximum 2-3" deep with gravel on the bottom (as a foothold in case a dart falls in) and several large features (wood, large rocks, etc) that rise well above the water line to provide a place for any darts to climb out of the water. Personally, I would get a large cork round (long, not wide) and extend it from the land side into the water, providing a place for a frog to climb out of the water while being able to get to the land without swimming or hopping long distances (so, basically, a cork bridge). Also, the land where the pond begins should slope down gradually and have gravel glued onto it to make it easier for darts to climb up and out of the water.

As long as the above precautions are met, I don't see why you couldn't have darts in it. I would personally stock it is some type of large Ameerga species, as they are huge frogs and they have really strong back legs (less of a risk of drowning) and I have heard that in the wild, some species of Ameerga are more abundant by sources of water then other darts, which would imply that they appreciate water more then other species of darts as well. I believe they are also an under-appreciated frog, so you'd be helping out an Ameerga species in the hobby by raising awareness and letting people know how awesome they are. 

I hear that their calls are deafening though, and that can be a huge con. In the end, it's your decision to make, and no one else can make it for you, although one can try. 

Edit: Make sure that you seal off the water access to under the false bottom with egg crate to keep any frogs from getting trapped underneath it.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks Frogdude! I'm looking forward to adding something, but I'm trying not to get ahead of myself. As of right now, the way the hardscape/water looks, that species seems like a good option. 

The tank will be 2/3 land, along with the other things you mentioned.. Gravel in a gradual slope up to the land, large rock or cork round, etc.. 

Still curious about the moss mix people plaster all over their vivs to help initiate growth and fill in backgrounds.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Dartkart21 said:


> Thanks Frogdude! I'm looking forward to adding something, but I'm trying not to get ahead of myself. As of right now, the way the hardscape/water looks, that species seems like a good option.
> 
> The tank will be 2/3 land, along with the other things you mentioned.. Gravel in a gradual slope up to the land, large rock or cork round, etc..
> 
> Still curious about the moss mix people plaster all over their vivs to help initiate growth and fill in backgrounds.


No problem. Keep in mind that it's ok to decide the frog species before you build the tank. Actually, it's recommend to do that so you can taylor the tank to that specific frogs needs. The species of frog I want is the first thing I decide when I build a new vivarium.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

So I sort of did a run down of the things I need.. And it's a lot haha. I'll try to list them in order of what I need first. 

-canister filter $75 (online)
-extra tubing $5 (local)
-eggcrate $15 (lowes)
-substrate divider $10 (online)
-ABG mix $40 (online)
-fern/moss mix.. Something for the background to grow in $? 
-black gravel & river stones $20 
-large piece of driftwood $75 (online or local)
-other pieces of wood $25
-misting system.. $200  (mist kings) 

That's all I can think of at the moment. I know it's going to be a process, but an expensive one for sure..

Then after that's all said and done I need plants and animals..


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh yeahh, and a light.. Unless an oddyssea aquarium will work.. I think it's 12000k


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

How long is the tank? I know the aqueon brand 72bow is about 4ft long, and in that case an inexpensive lighting system would be 2 of the 48" single bulb T5HO fixtures NEherp sells. I would provide a link but I haven't figured it out yet on this phone. Anywho, the fixtures come with the bulbs and they are just under $50ea.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Ahh, here it is. Second from top, and you must select the 48" size.
New England Herpetoculture LLC - Horticultural Fixtures


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks.. I just checked it out. Is it just a regular 48" T5? If so I have a 48" shop light that takes the same bulbs. Not sure if it's sufficient temporarily, but it's worth asking.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

I don’t se why it wouldn't work, as long as you use the right bulb.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Well I'm not sure yet about lights but I decided to grab some eggcrate to map out the false bottom. I still need to silicone PVC spacers under but here's a better idea of what I'm working with. 

And I know I need cut outs for tubing, pumps, etc

I also found some stuff that looks like filter mesh that would make a good permeable substrate barrier


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

I found a great piece of wood that I got a couple years ago when I began a project like this and never got to finish. I also threw the light on top so everyone could see the size.. 

It's a 36" Odyssea 96W 12000K and it's meant for a reef tank. I'm having a hard time finding one online to show you guys.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Here's the nice big piece of wood.. I'm sure I spent a shit load on it


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

I thought this kinda progress deserved some credit lol


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh no, don't worry.. Ill figure it out lol. 

Post pics when I'm done.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Got some new stuff today


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Going for a tree trunk- quarter section look.. Throwing some vines on, hoping to get a nice vining plant to run vertically on the piece.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

This is the light.. I broke the daylight bulb, but this the true blue actinic bulb that still works.. It's obviously meant for reefs but it might be neat for at night.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Making progress.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Gonna go for leucomelus and maybe green auratus


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

That light won't work... target kelvin is between 6200 to 6700 daylight color, not a 10,000k blue reef light. I know you said said something about it being use as a night light, but darts don't need any light at night, only a daylight simulating bulb that is to be used during the day. 
Also, you said something about leucomelas and maybe auratus inhabiting the viv, but I strongly reccomend only choosing one of them, as mixing different species of frogs together, unless certain conditions are met,(insanly large tank (150+ gallons), lots of experience keeping dart frogs, and the frogs that would be mixed are naturally found coexisting peacfully in the wild, to name a few) is usually very frowned upon. I wouldn't call doing this a particularly wise move to make this early in the hobby.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

The daylight bulb in the fixture is broken right now, and needs to be replaced hence the blue light. I am sending away for a 6700k bulb. This blue reef light should do no harm, and no foul. If I can replace both bulbs with 6700k daylight I will, but right now the blue is aesthetic.. That's all. As for the mix of species that's not even decided yet. I've seen it done, so I figured throw it out there and see what everyone says. Thanks for the strong words of advice, we'll see what happens.


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

Dartkart21 said:


> As for the mix of species that's not even decided yet. I've seen it done, so I figured throw it out there and see what everyone says. Thanks for the strong words of advice, we'll see what happens.


Just some words of advice, just because you have seen it done, does not mean someone should do it, at least without years and years of experience.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Of course it doesn't mean I should do it.. Just that it may be doable. Not to say I'm going to though.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Alright I fugged up guys. I ended up tearing apart all the work I've done because the canister filter I bought was not cutting it. It was unable to draw water over the back to the filter. I don't know if other filters (eheims) would be strong enough to provide suction in 4" of water. Not being able to drill this thing makes it much more difficult. I'm wondering if adding an external pump to the system will improve flow. Suggestions would help..

Oh yeah and my great stuff background seems like over time would fall off, as it easily came off the bottom when I was rearranging. That was a real bummer... Making me think I'm better lining the damn tank in that fibrous crap that I wanted to avoid.


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## Dlanigan (Nov 13, 2013)

As far as the background falling off, putting down a nice layer of silicone prior to adding great stuff makes it adhere 10x better than just GS onto the glass. 

I've read on here of peoples backgrounds falling off like you described when they used GS directly on the glass.

It happened to me kind of on my first build, luckily I was able to fix it. 

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Thanks!! I wish I knew that earlier.. Either way it hasn't fallen off yet, I was more or less just worried. 

Good news is I got the eheim and got it working.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

New bulb and got the filter running. Just have to build and lay down substrate.


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## jmdelarosa55 (Jan 17, 2014)

Dartkart21 said:


> So I sort of did a run down of the things I need.. And it's a lot haha. I'll try to list them in order of what I need first.
> 
> -canister filter $75 (online)
> -extra tubing $5 (local)
> ...


Can probably get the "MistKing Starter System". I got it as a gift for my birthday and it works great. Says can use upto 10x nozzles. Think the nozzles are about $15. I know your not saving alot but maybe a couple extra nozzels and starter kit would run you around $130, sounds better than $200. Great investment.

MistKing Starter Misting System


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Awesome man. Thanks!


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Added the "stream" yesterday.. Can't wait to cover everything and fill it in with plants. Any suggestions on a good small vining plant? One that drapes over branches well, and ones that climb well vertically. I also think I might do a brom on the left side of the tree trunk feature and near the cork tube on the right... And some small tillandsia on the vines above the stream. 


Curious about an aquatic grass that can grow in water but will also do well growing above the surface, with smaller blades. 

Suggestions on small plants would be great.. And some tight bushy ferns. 

Also my best bet on where to order from.. Thanks!!


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Mar 2, 2014 - YouTubeMar 2, 2014 - YouTube


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)




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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Just a little update.. I had to get some life in here. It was killing me! I know this hobby takes patience but I like to see progress.

Soo.. I decided to add a couple simpler tropical plants.. not really sure of the species, (PLEASE plant ID) but I think I grabbed two bromeliad and some type of begonia... I could be totally wrong about both. I got them from a local pet store. I also tried to pick something small so I can get a nice balance of vine, compact ground cover, and leaved plants/ferns. 

I grabbed two chinsy gauges to see what my temp and humidy was around. Looks like its about 85-90% humidity and around 80 deg.

Also, I just put a tropical moss/sphagnum mix on the ground over my ABG mix.. I saw on a tutorial that its good to put down under leaf litter to avoid getting substrate on the frogs. I'm not really sure if the tropical moss will begin to grow again like it says, but its worth a shot I suppose.

Unfortunately, I still have to figure out a way to cover the GS surrounding the "stream" and on the background.. This shiny shit is just throwing me off every time I look at it. Hopefully there are solutions that do not involve me removing the substrate and plants- which I guess takes silicone/ABG out??


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Oh yeahhh.. the 4th picture is a neat little feature I decided to toss in. Its actually the section behind the "tree trunk" wood pieces.. I guess it'll just be a cool way to check out the frogs when they're all huddled together under their tree haha. I'll probably throw some leaf litter in there and down on that side, near the base of the trunk. 


My vision is slowly coming together.. just hoping it works.


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## Dartkart21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Going to order more plants this weekend. Vines, ferns, and an orchid or two.


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