# w00t!



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

FINALLY! After years of having my 2007 red Rio Branco pumilio, I have success! It got to a point that I finally figured that they were just too old. After all, they were originally wild caught so who knows how old they were when they were imported, add to that the almost five years they've been in captivity.... But today I went to feed and I saw a little guy (which I originally thought was my female). It looks pretty big to me, I'm guessing about two months out of the water, but it's still got some coloring up to do. It's not like a typical brand new froglet which is nervous to come out of its brom axil. It was foraging in the leaf litter. Anyway, enough of me venting my excitement, it's time for some pictures (what crappy pictures I could get... I grabbed the worse of my two point-and-shoots before it ran out of sight).



















(I already have a taker for this and the next few froglets out... please don't PM me about availability).


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Nice!! Congratulations!! 

ps sent you a PM about availability~ LOL jk


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Congrats Jake, great looking froglet.


----------



## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

Nice lil frog ya got there. Congrats


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Very nice looking froglet. Good luck and congratulations.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Congrats Jake! He's beautiful!


----------



## Tuckinrim8 (Jul 26, 2007)

Got home from date night and started the build on the new viv.. I guess if I can't get the parents back I'll take lil ones! Good work brother!


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Are you planning on leaving this lil guy in with the parents, or outside rearing? 

Maybe I am a bit too speculative, but I would keep my eyes on the leaf litter and brom axils for a bit, and maybe reintro some springs as a supplemental boost. Just in case there are more un-noticed/on the way,  !

Congrats to you, it must be quite pleasing after the wait! Best of luck toward the continued success as well!

JBear


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> Are you planning on leaving this lil guy in with the parents, or outside rearing?
> 
> Maybe I am a bit too speculative, but I would keep my eyes on the leaf litter and brom axils for a bit, and maybe reintro some springs as a supplemental boost. Just in case there are more un-noticed/on the way,  !
> 
> ...


He'll be hanging in the parent enclosure for a while.

I'm hoping for more. It got to a point that I really stopped paying attention to this tank, but I had some froggers over not too long ago and these guys are usually a spectacle. The female is rather bold and looks a bit like a white-foot sylvaticus, but half the size. They noticed that she had ascended and descended the forty gallon vert three times in their twenty or thirty minutes in the frog room. They figured something was going on.... Let's hope your speculations are right.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Very nice Jake! I hope to get some of these some day. Hopefully by then I'll have the option to work with F2's or 3's.

Where there's one there's more  Hopefully!


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

thedude said:


> Very nice Jake! I hope to get some of these some day. Hopefully by then I'll have the option to work with F2's or 3's.
> 
> Where there's one there's more  Hopefully!


For the life of me, I can't seem to find anyone who is working with the same import. I was hoping (back when I still felt I had hopes of breeding) to find a few people to increase the bloodlines, but I haven't found anyone. Most people I've seen are working with the yellow Rio Brancos and so far they've all been from different imports. These are by far my favorites. They're a nice, deep orange, almost a red. The only other person I knew who had some lost them in a tragic accident....


----------



## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Well worth the wait. When you get a chance, can you post pics of the pair?


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

boombotty said:


> Well worth the wait. When you get a chance, can you post pics of the pair?


I'll see what I can do. I've got pictures from years ago. Now the male hangs deep in the canopy. The female hangs near the bottom but she runs when I try to get pictures. I'll try to get some tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> For the life of me, I can't seem to find anyone who is working with the same import. I was hoping (back when I still felt I had hopes of breeding) to find a few people to increase the bloodlines, but I haven't found anyone. Most people I've seen are working with the yellow Rio Brancos and so far they've all been from different imports. These are by far my favorites. They're a nice, deep orange, almost a red. The only other person I knew who had some lost them in a tragic accident....


Try contacting Eric Malolepsy, he may be able to help you out.

I really don't see the point in SNDF calling them all Rio Brancos and then telling us to keep them separate based on color. I also don't get the point of keeping them separate based on import date. If they are being called the same thing, from the same source, and there's no locality data, they may as well be bred together. Especially since they split phenotypes like with the Cristobals and Escudo. Any thoughts?

Also, you may want to check with Chris Teem, I believe he has a lone female


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

thedude said:


> Try contacting Eric Malolepsy, he may be able to help you out.
> 
> *I really don't see the point in SNDF calling them all Rio Brancos and then telling us to keep them separate based on color*. I also don't get the point of keeping them separate based on import date. If they are being called the same thing, from the same source, and *there's no locality data*, they may as well be bred together. Especially since they split phenotypes like with the Cristobals and Escudo. Any thoughts?
> 
> Also, you may want to check with Chris Teem, I believe he has a lone female


In boldface you may have answered your own question. Furthermore, I find it a bit irresponsible on behalf of SNDF to be propogating frogs into our hobby without knowing locality data. Just my opinion.

JBear


----------



## ashb (Dec 9, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> In boldface you may have answered your own question. Furthermore, *I find it a bit irresponsible on behalf of SNDF to be propogating frogs into our hobby without knowing locality data*. Just my opinion.
> 
> JBear


I guess 90% of the imports into this country were irresponsibly executed.

I do not recall Marcus explicitly telling people not to breed the red and yellow Rio Brancos together. I agree with Adam in that if the are both Rio Brancos, then they should be bred together.

Ashton


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Glad to hear you guys agree. Unfortunately I typed that without thinking about the thread getting off topic, sorry Jake. We could always make a new thread to talk about it, or continue the conversation on this one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/oophaga/74208-know-locality-pumilio-populations.html

Jake
I would still be interested in hearing how you feel about it, since you have to find new blood. Again, well done!


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Let me start by saying, I HATE that many importers still don't have precise locale data on their frogs. I've started boycotting those that bring in wild caught frogs and cannot verify exactly where they've been collected.

I am dubious at best when it comes to my trust in collectors/importers (my trust in people in general). I've heard of far too many frogs that have been misconstrued as one frog or another based on that frog's phonetypic display. Even recently, some frogs have come in classified as one frog and then shippers have labeled them based on whatever they think is going to be worth more (and what it looks somewhat like). So for me, I don't trust the people who tell SNDF that "these are X frog."

However, I DO believe in the laziness of human beings. I don't think that any anonymous collector will go far out of his or her way to collect as many frogs as they can that look alike, no matter where they came from, and label them all the same way. I also don't think that any anonymous collector will go out of his or her way to intentionally visit the EXACT spot that they were out when collecting their first "X frog." 

I suppose all of this is to say, I find it highly likely that many of the imports labelled "Rio Branco" are not the same "rio Branco" that I have. As long as I can find "new blood" from my import (mine are wild caught, after all, any frog not directly descended from my pair won't be directly related), I don't want to worry about crossing colors or import years.

Beyond that, I have to say, while if I KNEW that the yellows and reds were in the same area, I would make sure to have a yellow and red pair to encourage diversity in the offspring (if nothing more than phenotypic diversity). However, were I offered a pair of yellows I would have likely turned them down. I don't find the yellow Rio Brancos to be a particularly attractive frog, and as long as I can keep the red ones, I will.


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

firstly, excellent work. these and the rio guarmo are very under-represented and it seems both are quite difficult to breed, with some success happening only now, years after import. 

i would like to add that it should become pretty clear if successful breeding continues, whether the red and the yellow populations are one in the same since one would assume that if they are from the same location the genes would be mixed and that offspring would be produced in both colors regardless of the color of the parents,(just as the cemetery population of bastimentos occurs) conversely if the parents produce offspring of the same color on a consistent basis, it should be reasonable to assume that they occur in different locations, since even a small portion of either color in the frogs genetic line should show up in the offspring within a relatively short period of time.

the above should, of course, not be used as empirical evidence which would suggest the mixing of the two, since that data is unavailable, but it could shed some light on the situation.

james


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

james67 said:


> i would like to add that it should become pretty clear if successful breeding continues, whether the red and the yellow populations are one in the same since one would assume that if they are from the same location the genes would be mixed and that offspring would be produced in both colors regardless of the color of the parents,(just as the cemetery population of bastimentos occurs) conversely if the parents produce offspring of the same color on a consistent basis, it should be reasonable to assume that they occur in different locations, since even a small portion of either color in the frogs genetic line should show up in the offspring within a relatively short period of time.


An interesting thought, to be sure. I suppose it might matter if there's a recessive or dominant trait. If the reds are recessive then there's little (no?) chance that mine will ever produce a yellow... but there may be some yellows that produce reds... or vice versa.

I suppose the point it: those with yellow Rio Brancos, START BREEDING THEM!


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I suppose it might matter if there's a recessive or dominant trait. If the reds are recessive then there's little (no?) chance that mine will ever produce a yellow... but there may be some yellows that produce reds... or vice versa.


not necessarily. i suspect that, just as two brown eyed people can have blue eyed children, and two red cemetery pumilio can have "gold dust" offspring, the recessive trait would eventually appear in offspring (given a large enough sampling)

this is of course excluding what may be very important variables such as mate selection, and which genes or combination of genes determine skin pigmentation. but theoretically if the population was split by visual difference after import, YY and RR parentage will produce both yellow and red offspring (although ratios may be vastly different) 

james


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

james67 said:


> not necessarily. i suspect that, just as two brown eyed people can have blue eyed children, and two red cemetery pumilio can have "gold dust" offspring, the recessive trait would eventually appear in offspring (given a large enough sampling)


That is more likely do to incomplete dominance. If red was recessive in Jakes Rio Branco then that would mean both the male and female have the recessive alleles for that gene. Unless there are other alleles for yellow that are at that loci that aren't being represented in the genotype, chances are a yellow individual would take a long time to come up.

Jake,
That is a very good point. I'm sure when importers are gathering frogs from the natives it is from several different people, and therefor most likely they are from different areas. It's really unfortunate. Hence why I will not be purchasing any of the new Popas, or other imports with such little info.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I tried getting a few pictures of the female. She's super gravid at the moment. I haven't seen the male in some time, but I think something's going on; I hear him all the time.

Front face:










Dark back shot... colors are pretty accurate:










Light back shot... body shape is clearly defined, but colors are pretty washed out:


----------



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Wow! She is not only fat but that is the nicest one I've seen! very nice!


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Thanks. If she were three times the size I'd probably confuze her with a white-footed sylvaticus.... She's pretty awesome....


----------



## kate801 (Jul 7, 2011)

That brings back memories. I was looking at your juvie and thinking I remember my Rio having a lot more pattern to it. I love the seeing the female!


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I suspect my juvie is far from fully colored up.


----------



## kate801 (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm sure. I imagine when it grows up it'll be amazing.


----------



## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

Mazel Tov Jake!!

(so, can i have him?  )


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

The girlfriend was over tonight and happened to look in this tank. While the frog is relatively newly morphed and remains high in the viv near the bromeliad where it was almost assuredly deposited (high enough that I was unable to get a picture), that still makes #2....


----------

