# a beautiful pumilio



## swarovski (Oct 19, 2006)

This one came in from a Panama shipment.

Unusual color, pretty boy !

No site data, and I didn't get any other pumilios which look like this one, so I am keeping him separately.


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## coxdre123 (Aug 3, 2009)

Looks like a cristobal. But with no location data then who knows.


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## swarovski (Oct 19, 2006)

Others came in are red & dark blue. The unusual boy is orange & sky blue.

Others look like the one in photo.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Cristobal can range from red to orange. Since they came in on the same shipment, it is probably safe to put him together with one of the redder ones from the same shipment. This years import? I guess you would label them Cristobal 2011. 
Get some other input first though. Skysdale would probably be a good source to advise you if they can properly be grouped together.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

yeah, the recent imports are highly variable, as are the offspring. My breeding pair from the 2010 imports produce orange to blood red offspring, with and without spots, etc. Just pair him up with another from the recent imports. Best you can do.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

stemcellular said:


> yeah, the recent imports are highly variable, as are the offspring. My breeding pair from the 2010 imports produce orange to blood red offspring, with and without spots, etc. Just pair him up with another from the recent imports. Best you can do.


You want to keep them separate from different year imports though, right? So make sure to "label" them with the import year?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> You want to keep them separate from different year imports though, right? So make sure to "label" them with the import year?


Yep, unless you are working with Frye line the best you can do is match them by import date.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Marcus at SNDF had a couple of Christobal's with VERY similar coloration at the Daytona show last year in August.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

How are you all getting WC imports? Are there certain times of the year that frogs are brought in?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Many or almost all recent imports are coming from strictly reptiles in florida. Theyre a wholeseller....at first it sounds sweet to get a beautilful pumilio for only $40, but you better have that first aid kit ready( baytril,panacur,metron) and fecal sample $ because it usually doesent go good for those little guys coming from strictly. they literally get one day or less of rest coming from panama and being shipped out.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I see, looking at the inventory list of amphibians on Strictly Reptiles, they list:



> Alamrante, Cristobal, Dorado, Cauchero - Dendrobates pumilio


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Nothing wrong with them in my opinion, as long as youre willing and or dedicated to work with them harder with treatment and what not....but pretty pumilio nonetheless...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Not just Strictly bringing them in, btw.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Oh I know sndf and a few others....but would you agree that strictly has brought in higher volume? At least 2011? I know of a few who pick from strictly and then claim as their own import....Soorten fotoalbum

Check out las tablas and delicias ... its what was recently being sold as bribri and eldos...would you agree?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I believe "Delicias" is the European tag for what we call (or what someone thought would be a great marketable name) "El Dorado." As I understand it, they are the southern extant of the BriBri population...the end that is in Panama and legally collectable. With clinal variation, the southern end is more orange than the deeper red of the northern end, "Bri Bri." I would assume that perhaps Las Tablas is the European equivalent of Bri Bri? Would like hear from others if this is incorrect, however. 

Sometimes the Europeans actually have the locale info...whereas Americans like to come up with some marketable slang phrase (Giant Orange, El Dorado, etc.).


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Exactly! What I say too....do europeans happen to have a little more on the specifics or just like us....slap a marketable name on it and....$ ? if the legal ( panamanian)site of bribri is what we got, why not just call it bribri? Haha tricky


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Simply looking at my sndf el dorados and what was given to me as cb " las tablas" they just do not match eldos being much smaller and tablas actually having blueish feet....and these tablas I know for a fact came in on 3-31-11 in a group of about 10. If it was up to me, Id sell them as 2011 orange pumilio imports...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> I see, looking at the inventory list of amphibians on Strictly Reptiles, they list:


 lets remember those names are all 'made up' guesses based upon look.....

pumilio are a mess and I for one am glad Panama is closing its exports

S


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

The variability alone within certains populations like bri bri, el dorado, etc makes me very hesitant to call anything by an artifical moniker. I believe sticking to the import date and only pairing those same frogs up in the best approach. Even then, there is a high probability that the frogs imported together are collected from multiple locations. As a hobby, I really wish we could get away from site names (without site data) and start using some type of numerical cataloging system.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

sports_doc said:


> lets remember those names are all 'made up' guesses based upon look.....


That's good to know, Shawn. I actually don't deal with importers so am not completely familiar with how things work...I assumed they were getting that info from exporters or collectors. But I'll take it all with a grain of salt.



stemcellular said:


> As a hobby, I really wish we could get away from site names (without site data) and start using some type of numerical cataloging system.


Some of us have been saying this for some time now...the killifish hobby has done an amazing job in tracking animals. Even if a fish is collected from a puddle/pool a few yards away from another puddle/pool (at the time the two being isolated from one another), fish from each are given different numeric codes and subsequently tracked.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> Some of us have been saying this for some time now...the killifish hobby has done an amazing job in tracking animals. Even if a fish is collected from a puddle/pool a few yards away from another puddle/pool (at the time the two being isolated from one another), fish from each are given different numeric codes and subsequently tracked.


So many hobbyists travel down there, why doesn't anyone get the proper permits to collect and bring back frogs with real site data? The big exporters/importers will never bother...


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I'm not sure, Tony. If you're not catching a few hundred and shipping them out, perhaps it's not worth the cost and hassle. Maybe you have to be a certain commercial entity (i.e. if you're not getting research collection permits) to get them...and again, maybe there are fees involved. I'm not sure, but in an age of easily acquired GPS coordinates, I just don't understand how we don't have better information than we do. Well...I do. We're dealing with the commercial beast that is just about getting and moving large numbers of animals and they're not concerned with details like site specificity. 

The killifish hobbyists collect their own, but they're also doing it because they want to (I assume)--it's what interests them. Perhaps it's not about getting their money's worth through what they breed and are able to collect. I'm not sure. Maybe it IS about having something new, some new wild blood, and they plan to recoup all the costs. I think it would have to be a hobbyist or few who were just passionate about the animals and willing to go through the effort and cost of making it happen.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Tony said:


> So many hobbyists travel down there, why doesn't anyone get the proper permits to collect and bring back frogs with real site data? The big exporters/importers will never bother...


What exactly would this require? I'd wager that folks like SNDF would most definitely continue doing this if it was profitable. However, by all accounts, my understanding is that the only truly profitable manner is the worst - large scale, jobber type imports.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> What exactly would this require? I'd wager that folks like SNDF would most definitely continue doing this if it was profitable. However, by all accounts, my understanding is that the only truly profitable manner is the worst - large scale, jobber type imports.


I'm not sure what is required, but it seems like figuring it out and supporting a hobbyist-led collection trip would be a no-brainer considering the constant complaints about lack of site data. I doubt the big names will ever bother since they are easily selling everything they bring in with best-guess labels, but out of all the hobbyists who travel down there regularly there must be someone who cares about more than just the profit margin.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Marcus has done this (see the link below). However, I've never seen either of the site specific populations around the hobby? No demand? Or they just disappeared? I wonder how profitable it truly can be after all the costs incurred. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/frog-classifieds/33252-peru-panama-colombia-suriname.html


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

stemcellular said:


> What exactly would this require? I'd wager that folks like SNDF would most definitely continue doing this if it was profitable. However, by all accounts, my understanding is that the only truly profitable manner is the worst - large scale, jobber type imports.


With the increase in popularity of keeping Dendrobatids (commercially available enclosures, plug-and-play fake bromeliads, etc.) including the large market in Europe and the soon-to-explode hobby scene in Asia, I think we're going to see the focus of interest shift more toward (or continue) collecting large numbers and cashing in on the expanding market potential (which makes sense if this is something you're trying to make a living from...you can't fault anyone for that). 

Although the PDF hobby began as a specialist niche hobby and, in some ways, still remains so...my guess is that it will grow to be a more generalist one, and I think it will be up to those hobbyists interested in the more specialized aspects of it to pursue such ventures. It is a hobby for them, and those aspects of it are a fulfilling part of the hobby. It's when you take those parts and try to force them on a commercial system that the two just don't to translate well as each has a primarily different impetus.

Just some thoughts...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

So when we going to Panama, Ron?


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Starting with just travel expense,food,stay,....all the little thing required to just even travel from locale to locale.. thats almost 50% of your profit. Then comes the actual picking and making sure you meet a quota and all the effort that comes with that....shipping......testing,treatment.....after all of the clearing fees and permit fees . Man...now that I think of it, all respect to marcus and his effort. Jobbers are the only ones that win here. 

Hope I made some sort of sense


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Not to mention the cost of the helicopter needed to get to Escudo...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> Not to mention the cost of the helicopter needed to get to Escudo...


Would Escudo need to be re-collected? Isn't it a tiny island with one interbreeding population?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I was referring to the past rumor of how they were collected.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It would also require collecting enough animals that the population has a chance of being sustainable for more than a few years... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Besides, if Escudo is being reclassified and is no longer Pumilio, then there are no more Cites permits for them.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Besides, if Escudo is being reclassified and is no longer Pumilio, then there are no more Cites permits for them.


CITES usually takes a while to catch up on taxonomy, they haven't even recognized _Dendrobates_ being split up yet from what I can see on the site. As I understand it Escudo being reclassified wouldn't necessarily bar their continued export, it would just require that the permits be issued under the new name.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Getting back to the OP's pic... That is one extra sexy pumilio!!!


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Besides, if Escudo is being reclassified and is no longer Pumilio, then there are no more Cites permits for them.


I believe Ray was referring to the fact that Escudo de Veraguas is a protected marine area and, as such, it is illegal to remove or collect any organisms from within its borders. That would include frogs.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Here we are talking about all these alternatives for better and improved importation methods and correct locale i.d.ing and even planning out trips!!! Haha ...and for all we know, the gates might be shutting down as we speak. Rumor from a close friend at gladys porter zoo in south tx goes that theres one last shipment before they halt for a while...how true is this?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

cairo11 said:


> Here we are talking about all these alternatives for better and improved importation methods and correct locale i.d.ing and even planning out trips!!! Haha ...and for all we know, the gates might be shutting down as we speak. Rumor from a close friend at gladys porter zoo in south tx goes that theres one last shipment before they halt for a while...how true is this?


From what I've been told that rumor circulates pretty much every year. I doubt they will shut down exports and turn away that steady stream of income, but that is just my unsubstantiated opinion.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

cairo11 said:


> Here we are talking about all these alternatives for better and improved importation methods and correct locale i.d.ing and even planning out trips!!! Haha ...and for all we know, the gates might be shutting down as we speak. Rumor from a close friend at gladys porter zoo in south tx goes that theres one last shipment before they halt for a while...how true is this?


That is what the talk is.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> From what I've been told that rumor circulates pretty much every year. I doubt they will shut down exports and turn away that steady stream of income, but that is just my unsubstantiated opinion.


Actually it would follow the pattern that those countries have followed in the past. It wasn't uncommon to see some of the Central and South American countries to open up and export animals for a period of 3-7 years followed by a closure of ten to 15 years (Suriname, Guyana, Nicaragua). This way demand for the animals in the market goes back up. I'm not sure how the increase for these animals from Asia is going to play with that scenario as they could just stop exporting to the Western countries.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

See, but can panamanians ( campesinos, locals, pickers) whatever were supposed to call them....along with govt officials affort to loose dollars for 10-15 years? Our money is beyond valuable to them but most importantly critical....so by cutting themselves from all export funds, wouldnt that force them to pick up agriculture/ farming and use up even more land therefore damaging more of the species? Bottom line is...." money talks" and Im sure they know that either way were helping maintain many of the species through c.b . And I just dont see them making a move like that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cairo11 said:


> See, but can panamanians ( campesinos, locals, pickers) whatever were supposed to call them....along with govt officials affort to loose dollars for 10-15 years? Our money is beyond valuable to them but most importantly critical....so by cutting themselves from all export funds, wouldnt that force them to pick up agriculture/ farming and use up even more land therefore damaging more of the species? Bottom line is...." money talks" and Im sure they know that either way were helping maintain many of the species through c.b . And I just dont see them making a move like that.


That has been the pattern for more than 30 years... 

The campesino's don't have a lot of say in the process so we can take them right out of this equation.

As for the politicos, keep in mind that the only ones that are likely earning significant amounts of money are going to be the one's who oversee the export permits. If there is a change in goverment then those people are likely to be replaced and given that the price has bottomed out on most of the exports, not likely to see much profit. 

The exporters, tend to also export fish as well as the other animals, with fish being the consistent money makers. Once the price drops to a certain point, the profit margin may insufficient to continue with the harvest, shipping and holding of the frogs. 

If you graphed pumilio prices from when Panama first opened up, you saw limited imports (controlling supply and demand) with retail prices running as high as 400 dollars per frog. Now the supply isn't controlled and prices are down to around 40-80 for most of the pumilio depending on who you purchase them from and number taken. During the original exports, the exporters were also able to force the importers to take auratus if they wanted pumilio, which is no longer the case. Most of the profit has been forced from the exports so if they want to maximize profit they have to either send send them to a new market or close exports or close exports to the saturated market (which is what may occur as frogs are being laundered into Aisa by shipping them to Lebanon then to Kazakhstan and then to Thailand. They are dispersed into other Asian countries from Thailand. 

People should also keep in mind that the US (or other countries) can also refuse to allow imports if they believe that the exporting country is violating CITES. 

Ed


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