# Inbreeding issues



## aquaman3680 (Jul 6, 2010)

Hey all,

I was looking into buying some new Leucs next Sunday.

These would be my first frogs and I was thinking about buying them as tads seeing as how they are a lot cheaper. I have a pretty decent size water area where I could put them and then they could just naturally climb out when they are ready. Would that be alright?

Also I was wondering if I were to buy 3 or 4 of them would I eventually run into issues with inbreeding? Should I buy two from one source and two from another? My first intentions are not to breed them but down the road I would like to have that possibility without any issues.

Please let me know your thoughts on this topic!

Thanks,

Matt


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

aquaman3680 said:


> .
> These would be my first frogs and I was thinking about buying them as tads seeing as how they are a lot cheaper. I have a pretty decent size water area where I could put them and then they could just naturally climb out when they are ready. Would that be alright?


As for buying tads, you might want to check out the below.
Newbies wanting tadpoles - Dart Frog Forum on Husbandry and Habitat Information
It has some interesting points, like the one below:


> The reason is pretty obvious. The new hobbyist needs to prove that they are capable of culturing FF for one, not to mention the need to understand the entire vivarium setup and the myriad of other husbandry issues


Not to deter you from getting tads, just to give you some info. 




> Also I was wondering if I were to buy 3 or 4 of them would I eventually run into issues with inbreeding? Should I buy two from one source and two from another? My first intentions are not to breed them but down the road I would like to have that possibility without any issues


You might want to check out:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/55577-curious-question-beginner.html

I chimed in, but I was proven wrong by the almighty ed kowalski 



> These are going to be of interest
> 
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691722/(showing frogs do show signs of inbreeding depression)
> 
> ...


The "search button" is your friend.


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## aquaman3680 (Jul 6, 2010)

Sweet thanks for all the great information. Read a few of the articles on the inbreeding and it seems as if there is not a whole lot of an issue with it in amphibians.

As far as the tads go the only thing that I am concerned about it that I can afford 2 juvis right now but want to eventually have 3-4 in the tank. Is it possible to add more frogs after two are established? 

Thanks again for the info! 

Matt


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

aquaman3680 said:


> Is it possible to add more frogs after two are established


Yes, you can add more assuming you have a large enough tank with enough hiding places. Additionally, try to add ones similar in size and age because otherwise the smaller ones could be out-competed for food and stressed. Also, if you are adding adult frogs to a group, try to get the appropriate sex of the frog so that they don't fight. This won't matter for a group of juveniles though.
More importantly, make sure you are ready for frogs by getting good practice culturing food so you will be prepared. And with having multiple tadpoles, some can be cannibalistic so you may need to raise them separately.
Good luck!
Bryan


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## aquaman3680 (Jul 6, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> Yes, you can add more assuming you have a large enough tank with enough hiding places. Additionally, try to add ones similar in size and age because otherwise the smaller ones could be out-competed for food and stressed. Also, if you are adding adult frogs to a group, try to get the appropriate sex of the frog so that they don't fight. This won't matter for a group of juveniles though.
> More importantly, make sure you are ready for frogs by getting good practice culturing food so you will be prepared. And with having multiple tadpoles, some can be cannibalistic so you may need to raise them separately.
> Good luck!
> Bryan


Awesome thanks a lot for the info! I think i might just get two right now and add more later. 

thanks again!

Matt


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

No problem. I have two pairs of breeding leucs and I have raised many into froglets. They are easy and don't take too long to morph, but I think it's easier to start with established young frogs than tads to frogs because sometimes they are very sensitive when they first morph out and may have a tough time eating if you don't have springtails at first. It is very important to get the hang of culturing fruit flies before you get frogs, though. Getting two now and waiting to add more can be good because then if you are worried about inbreeding you could always buy more later on from a different breeder. What size tank will they be going into?
Bryan


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## aquaman3680 (Jul 6, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> No problem. I have two pairs of breeding leucs and I have raised many into froglets. They are easy and don't take too long to morph, but I think it's easier to start with established young frogs than tads to frogs because sometimes they are very sensitive when they first morph out and may have a tough time eating if you don't have springtails at first. It is very important to get the hang of culturing fruit flies before you get frogs, though. Getting two now and waiting to add more can be good because then if you are worried about inbreeding you could always buy more later on from a different breeder. What size tank will they be going into?
> Bryan


They are going to be going into a 30T tank, I don't know if the would be better with 3 or 4 if with 3 then I may just get all three at the same time. I am going to be getting spring tails hopefully on tuesday, and I am also setting up a fogging system tomorrow. I have had my plants in there for about 2 weeks or so and they seem to be thriving! 

Which type of fruit flies should I be feeding the heydii? 

Also there is supposed to be a guy at the reptile show that is selling moss that he has all sorts of critters in it like millipedes and different types of beatles and things. Would something like this be a good idea?

Thanks,

Matt


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I would feed melanogaster (the smaller ones) because the smaller frogs can eat them easier and they are easier to culture since they reproduce much faster than the larger flies. It never hurts to have both for some variety though. It's up to you with the moss, I personally would be a little cautious so nothing bad is introduced that can harm the frogs or eggs. If it has all of these "critters" because it was just collected from the wild, you should really clean the moss off before putting it in so you would probably lose most of the little bugs. Also, make sure you have supplements for the fruit flies.


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## aquaman3680 (Jul 6, 2010)

Ill certainly check into what all is in the moss! 

How many flies can I expect to feed two or three frogs a day?


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

There is no "magic number" for feeding, it all depends on the individual frogs. Once they are a couple months old and can aggressively hunt for food, they should be fed daily while they are still young so they have energy to grow. Try to feed 15-20 flies each per day, and as they get older feed more flies and they can be fed less often. Many people only feed adults every two or three days, but I personally feed all of mine daily. If they eat all of the food give them more, and when they are done they should have some extra flies in the tank for a snack later on. They do not need to be as fat as possible, but certainly shouldn't be too thin either.
Bryan


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## miccomte (Jul 16, 2010)

I think inbreeding can be an issue. You should always make inbreeding calculation before mating 2 frogs and choose the lowest inbreeding coefficient, here is how you should do:
Inbreeding calculation


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