# Is My Frog Too Skinny?



## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

To my inexperienced eyes, my captive bred Oophaga Pumilio "Rio Colubre" appears to be on the skinnier end of things. I was wondering if that appears to be the case for more experienced keepers as well. 

The approximately 6-7 months OOW 2cm (3/4 inch) long frog is very bold, active, and curious: climbing the front vivarium glass every day and allowing me to get up close to take photos with my phone's macro lense. I don't believe this to be a display of escape behavior given how the frog has been in this tank for a little over a month now. It also appears to be eating occasionally (as assumed by it performing the striking motion) but there has been no confirmed sightings of fruit fly consumption despite me releasing these flies near the frog whenever possible. I'm feeding the frog a dozen or so flies on a daily basis at the moment given my concern about its weight. The frog also never seems to gorge despite ample opportunity. Whenever I go to mist the following day I don't really see that many flies hopping around if any so hopefully the frog has consumed it, but they could have also escaped given the state of my vinegar traps. I'll be honest I'm still concerned about whether the frog is taking flies.

An important note regarding fecals: no testing was performed given how I obtained the frog from a very reputable breeder. It's parents were F1 captive bred. I also couldn't and still can't find any fecals and would rather not put the frog through the stress of being put in a tub to obtain fecals if at all possible.

Not sure how relevant the questionnaire below is, but I'll respond to it regardless.

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? Were they WC (wild collected) or CB (captive bred)?

_6-7 months OOW, captive bred Oophaga Pumilio "Rio Colubre." I've had the frog for slightly over a month, obtained from a reputable breeder._

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

_Surface temperature (measured using an IR gun) range between 23-25C (73.4-77F) depending on when I've last misted. It stays pretty consistent due to my use of an AC._

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

_Some LED aquarium lights. They're on for 13 hours a day with a 1 hour ramp up and ramp down time. This is the same brand and model I use for my other tanks. There are no issues there. Admittedly the lights do feel a bit bright, but the frog doesn't seem to mind given its boldness and consistent activity levels throughout the day, even when the light is at its peak brightness._

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

_The leaf litter within the vivarium is dried within a reasonable time with most of the leaves being completely dried by lights off. However, there are some leaves that retain pools of water and wetter microclimes within the tank. There are plenty of wetter and bone-dry areas within the tank for the frog to choose from._

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

_The tank is a 24x18x24 Exoterra with a 50% vented top. There's a small PC fan blowing air across the vent. This does not appear to dry things out significantly or bother the frogs given how it's been seen climbing up in the areas directly under the fan._

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

_Fruit flies dusted with Repashy Calcium plus that was opened less than 6 months ago and stored in the fridge when not in use. I try to pick the runtier Melanogasters from dying cultures to encourage the frog to eat. When the frog is visible I'll drop the flies near by. If the frog is not visible I'll toss them into my hand and blow them for even distribution._

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

_There is currently only one frog in the tank. The micro fauna consists of: tropical springtails at plague levels (despite having set up the tank 2 months ago and removing seed pods, they are still everywhere), dwarf white isopods, and unwelcomed fungus gnats. _


















_All the white specks in the image above are springtails. They are in such great numbers that they're no longer confined to hiding in the leaf litter. I'm thinking that I should cull some springtails since my frog seems to be doing a fairly bad job at it, any opinions on this front? Maybe send my Leucomelas in to clean things up much like the old lady who swallowed a spider to catch the fly (I jest)._

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

_The frog looks skinny in my eyes. Another strange behavior I've noticed was the weird kicking motion associated with hypocalcemia. Yesterday I spent almost an hour looking at the frog through some binoculars as to keep disruption to a minimum and I've came to the conclusion that this behavior was caused by springtails crawling onto the frog. The area it was resting happened to have a high springtail population (wetter microclime leaf that was underneath some big El Coca leaves preventing evaporation). It also should be noted that despite the frog performing this motion, it chose to stay in this area which is another factor that gives credence to the notion that it was just trying to brush springtails off rather than failing to use its limbs while trying to move.
While I did reach this conclusion, it's still something to keep in mind in case I'm wrong with that conclusion.

Another thing to note is that contrary to what "Female activity patterns and aggressiveness in the strawberry poison frog Dendrobates pumilio (Anura: Dendrobatidae)" (Haase & Pröhl) states: "On average all females spent 85.1% of the daytime without displacement." The frog is active throughout the day and is definitely not sitting in one spot for 85% of the time._

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

_I've never touched my frogs. The only chemical I use is some floor cleaner diluted at 1/10th the recommended amount to prevent the floors near the tank from being too sticky._

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help. 

_Images of the frog before I received it:_


























The frog taken at various times throughout the day (apologies beforehand for the image quality):


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

More images given the image limit per post.

















































































Any input is greatly appreciated, thank you.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

It does look a little on the skinny side. It could just be settling in still. I wouldn't worry too much about it. 

I rarely see my pumilio "Punta Laurel" eat and I've had them over a year


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

fishingguy12345 said:


> It does look a little on the skinny side. It could just be settling in still. I wouldn't worry too much about it.


Thanks for your response. About how long do you think I should wait for it to settle in/ observe things as they are before taking more drastic measures like feeding it dusted fly maggots (I'm not sure if it'll even go after it given how it ignores springtails half of the time) or if worst comes to worst, putting it into a smaller container to help it fatten up.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Anon123 said:


> Thanks for your response. About how long do you think I should wait for it to settle in/ observe things as they are before taking more drastic measures like feeding it dusted fly maggots (I'm not sure if it'll even go after it given how it ignores springtails half of the time) or if worst comes to worst, putting it into a smaller container to help it fatten up.


I don't have a concrete answer for you but I would wait 2 more weeks and then see.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

fishingguy12345 said:


> It could just be settling in still.


Assuming the frog still hasn't completely settled in after a month and a week in the vivarium. That its constant climbing of the front glass, hopping along the vivarium's front vents, and constant activity is a sign of stress or escape behavior (it's my only frog that constantly does this). How detrimental would transferring the frog into a smaller, less densely planted vivarium (possibly a 12x12x18 Exo Terra) with zero springtails be? Would the additional stress from such a move be unrecoverable for a frog that has yet to acclimate to its current environment? I'm not adding any springtails to force the frog to only eat dusted flies or the fattier maggots since my goal is to fatten it up. The more barren tank should allow for easier fecal collection.

For context I was looking at the frog again today and it still hasn't quite fatten up and possibly gotten leaner. Images taken today attached below.

Do you think reducing my observation of the frog would do any good? The frog doesn't seem to mind me getting very close to it as long as there's a glass divide.

Thank you.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I would leave it in the tank it's in. The less changes the better right now. The only times I'd disturb it are feeding and watering.

Other people may have different opinions but that's what I would do.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Just thinking out loud:



Anon123 said:


> Another strange behavior I've noticed was the weird kicking motion associated with hypocalcemia. Yesterday I spent almost an hour looking at the frog through some binoculars as to keep disruption to a minimum and I've came to the conclusion that this behavior was caused by springtails crawling onto the frog. The area it was resting happened to have a high springtail population (wetter microclime leaf that was underneath some big El Coca leaves preventing evaporation). It also should be noted that despite the frog performing this motion, it chose to stay in this area which is another factor that gives credence to the notion that it was just trying to brush springtails off rather than failing to use its limbs while trying to move.
> While I did reach this conclusion, it's still something to keep in mind in case I'm wrong with that conclusion.
> 
> Another thing to note is that contrary to what "Female activity patterns and aggressiveness in the strawberry poison frog Dendrobates pumilio (Anura: Dendrobatidae)" (Haase & Pröhl) states: "On average all females spent 85.1% of the daytime without displacement." The frog is active throughout the day and is definitely not sitting in one spot for 85% of the time.


I've had the advantage of being familiar with reptile care worldviews from before the "bioactive" times. It used to be that herp keepers were adamantly against any loose insects in an enclosure to reduce these sorts of annoyances to the focal animal (and also, importantly, so that the animal wasn't fed its own waste in the gut contents of its prey. How thinking has changed...). Once in a while mention is made of crickets or larger isopods being a potential annoyance risk, but I wonder if more attention should be paid to these and other chronic low grade stressors. 

The comparison to measured wild behavior is pretty interesting. Figuring out which dart behaviors are artifacts of captivity and which are more hardwired would certainly advance collective husbandry much more than coming up with a new technique to build a waterfall, or experimenting to find which reptiles darts will "successfully" cohabitate with.

More practically: I agree that FG's advice is good. I can see value in removing the frog to a smaller enclosure to collect fecal samples and test its feeding response in different surroundings, too. The choice might be six on one hand and a half dozen on the other.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Thank you for your responses. For now I'll follow FishingGuy's advice and leave it alone but keep a close eye on the frog's weight. Hopefully it'll have gotten through the worst of it and gotten used to its new home by the end of next week. But if I notice any sudden drop in weight/ the frog looking more and more emaciated over time, I think I'll go through with pulling it and putting it in a smaller enclosure since at that point I think I'll be pretty confident in the conclusion that the frog will probably waste away if nothing is done/ nothing has changed.

Regarding poor husbandry. I just recalled one incident about three weeks ago where there was a sudden cold snap. My AC unit broke down while I was away and dropped the room temperature to 18C over the course of 5 or so hours. The temperature in the vivarium went down to about 14-15C due to evaporative cooling. When I arrived home I slowly brought the temperature back up to 25C over the course of two hours. Fortunately both the Pumilio and the Leucs were perfectly active the day after so it's unlikely to be the cause.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

The frog was nice enough to provide me with an easy to access stool sample this morning on a vreisea so I got it tested at the same research facility as my Leuc's stool sample. I'm not certain how fresh it is, but the vet didn't make any comments on its usability and provided me with results: the sample is negative for both protozoa and parasites. I guess this allows us to rule that out as one of the causes of weight loss. 

The vet, not the department's frog specialist, also recommended that I bring the frog in for further examination after seeing images of the frog (similar to the ones I've posted above). They said that the frog looks skinny and its muscle appears atrophied. 

For now I've turned down their suggestion to avoid stressing the frog further since if it's not parasites then the weight loss is most likely due to stress. I really do think that the frog's frequent climbing of the front glass and running along the door vents is a sign of escape behavior that still hasn't quite quelled. It could also be curiosity as well, I guess.

I'm tempted to pin it on stress and not poor husbandry/tank design because the design concept for my Leucs and Fantasticas are basically the same and they're doing perfectly fine. An older image of the tank is attached below.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

This is a tough one. In some of those images, he looks skinny, in others, he looks fine. The only thing I can say is to trust your Spidey Senses on this sort of thing. Sometimes, frogs just sit funny and look skinny, but more often than not, anytime I am asking myself questions like this, there is, indeed something wrong. I am glad you are taking it seriously and that you are taking action. I don't think you will regret spending some money and time trying to figure out what's up. If nothing ends up being wrong, you at least have ruled out some stuff that would have been grim had it gone untreated. 

One other thing I notice in the pictures is that I can't see any noticeable decline between the pre-delivery pictures and the ones I assume you have taken recently. He looks a touch skinny to me in both sets of pics.

This vet either sounds unusually familiar with dart frogs (even exotic vets are typically generalists) or might be blowing smoke. I would guess it's the former and if so, you have won the lottery, but keep an eye out. I have never been able to see atrophied muscles in any of my frogs, but I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, either.

Mark


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Thank you for your response.



Encyclia said:


> Sometimes, frogs just sit funny and look skinny, but more often than not, anytime I am asking myself questions like this, there is, indeed something wrong.


Yeah, that was definitely a consideration that I had which was why I'd uploaded images of it looking skinny and images of it looking lean (I don't think any of us would describe the frog as being plump). The frog definitely doesn't have the type of curves the all Rio Colubre in this old thread does in its midriff section. F1 Rio Colubre Pumilio



Encyclia said:


> I don't think you will regret spending some money and time trying to figure out what's up.


Sefinitely not. Money isn't a concern and I'm quite fond of this frog and would like to do all I can to ensure that it makes it.



Encyclia said:


> One other thing I notice in the pictures is that I can't see any noticeable decline between the pre-delivery pictures and the ones I assume you have taken recently. He looks a touch skinny to me in both sets of pics.


The pictures were taken recently, on the day I made the post which was about a month after I'd gotten the frog. It's really hard for me to say much on this since for the first two weeks the frog could barely be seen so the base line was hard to establish. But I do feel like it's gotten a bit skinnier. And on the off chance that it hasn't lost any weight, I'd sleep easier at night after it puts some more meat on its bones. Below I've attached the few blurry images I managed to snap of the frog during the first week.

Day 1:








Day 2: 








Day 4

















Day 5: 









Day 6:









Not so many good shots, but the frog does seem to be a lot less stretched out and more plump in the older images than in the newer one.



Encyclia said:


> This vet either sounds unusually familiar with dart frogs (even exotic vets are typically generalists) or might be blowing smoke. I would guess it's the former and if so, you have won the lottery, but keep an eye out. I have never been able to see atrophied muscles in any of my frogs, but I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, either.


Personally, I think it's the latter given how dart frogs are an extremely niche hobby in my country — specialization, even when you're a professor at a public university, doesn't seem to make much sense as a career path. At best they have experiences with larger frogs like White's Tree Frogs or local Rana and are generalizing. They're also not the frog "specialist" (term coined by the lady at the front desk) I normally work with. The department is better known for stitching together turtles after an accident than taking care of frogs. I think my use of the term "atrophy" may have mislead you. I don't recall the exact way the vet communicated the idea, but I'd translated it from my native language as "atrophy" which may have added some unintentional meaning/expertise to what the vet said. I think a more accurate way of conveying the concept may be (once again my memory is foggy): "the frog's legs look unnaturally skinny. If its muscles mass look like it's decreasing, it may be a cause for concern and you should bring it in."

Assuming a lack of actual expertise on the vet's behalf, would you recommend I proceed with FishingGuy's advice and just leave it be for the time being? I don't wish to speak too soon, but it did feel like the frog spent less time at the front glass today which I take to be a good sign. More time spent foraging rather than staring at me should be a good thing.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I would always advise proceeding with FG's advice! The only thing that raised a flag with me was the number of springtails that your tank is spontaneously generating. If the frog is more comfortable eating springtails, that isn't ideal because they aren't being dusted with supplement. Moving the little fella into a smaller tank might be stressful, but it would also allow you to target him better with dusted flies. If you do that, avoid putting any springtails in there so that he is forced to eat flies. You might also try feeding fruit fly maggots (scoop out some medium from a thriving culture and run water through a strainer to dislodge the medium and leave larvae behind) in a petri dish if he will take them. Apparently, they are a bit fattier when they are in the larval phase than adult flies are. A feeding station (piece of banana) might not hurt, too, so that you can monitor the number of flies that are left and so that you can observe him better while he eats.

This is all with the assumption that he is getting worse and that the risk of the stress of moving him is outweighed by the risk of his health getting worse. There is risk either way. Only you can decide what's best.

As a potentially-related data point, I did get a pum from someone off Craigslist early in my career. The gal I bought him from said he would only eat springtails. He was skinny at the time and my springtail culture crashed not long after I got him. He was always skinny, but he lost a bunch more weight while I couldn't feed him springtails. He did end up dying. Could be unrelated to the actual reason for his death and probably is not what's going on with your frog, but, again, something to think about.

You are doing the best you can, so whatever happens, don't beat yourself up. This type of worry is an unfortunate part of the hobby, if you are doing it right.

Mark


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Encyclia said:


> I would always advise proceeding with FG's advice! The only thing that raised a flag with me was the number of springtails that your tank is spontaneously generating. If the frog is more comfortable eating springtails, that isn't ideal because they aren't being dusted with supplement. Moving the little fella into a smaller tank might be stressful, but it would also allow you to target him better with dusted flies. If you do that, avoid putting any springtails in there so that he is forced to eat flies. You might also try feeding fruit fly maggots (scoop out some medium from a thriving culture and run water through a strainer to dislodge the medium and leave larvae behind) in a petri dish if he will take them. Apparently, they are a bit fattier when they are in the larval phase than adult flies are. A feeding station (piece of banana) might not hurt, too, so that you can monitor the number of flies that are left and so that you can observe him better while he eats.


Thank you for your advice. I'll definitely keep it in mind should its condition deteriorate. I do feel like it's holding steady at the moment (starting from when the post was first made) which it'll hopefully maintain if not improve. The fact that fecal existed to collect (despite how the fecal was smaller than the size of a melanogaster) should at least mean its eating (assuming burning fat reserves doesn't create feces).

And yeah, the number of springtails in the tank really irks me as well. Should I ever need to remove the frog from the tank to give it special care (hopefully it doesn't come to that), I'm seriously considering vacuuming all the springtails visible and should that fail, adding a Leucomelas to the tank to help cull the population. I suppose there's such a thing as adding too many springtails at one time. The four clay cultures' worth of springtails must've really set things off on the wrong foot.



Encyclia said:


> You might also try feeding fruit fly maggots (scoop out some medium from a thriving culture and run water through a strainer to dislodge the medium and leave larvae behind) in a petri dish if he will take them.


Do you have any recommendations for how one can harvest from a thriving culture without adult flies getting everywhere? Would I basically have to dump all of the adults out into a different culture/ feed them out and then make a culture of only maggots?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Anon123 said:


> Do you have any recommendations for how one can harvest from a thriving culture without adult flies getting everywhere? Would I basically have to dump all of the adults out into a different culture/ feed them out and then make a culture of only maggots?


Yeah, that's one way of doing it. You could also time it right so that it's a new enough culture not to have any freshly-hatched flies but old enough that the seeder flies have laid their eggs. I never paid close attention, but I am guessing a few days in, you should start seeing maggots swimming through the medium but no pupae on the sides of the culture yet. At that point, you can feed the seeder flies to the frogs because they have done their work. Then, you can just dip some medium out with a spoon, wash it through a strainer, and dump the maggots into a petri dish. I have never had to do it, but I assume that's the way it would be done.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Anon123 said:


> , I'm seriously considering vacuuming all the springtails visible and should that fail, adding a Leucomelas to the tank to help cull the population.


Keep in mind that simply because one fecal sample came up negative, it is not the case that a pathogen can be ruled out. Not only can an animal be carrying a known and diagnosable intestinal parasite and and come up negative on a float, but pathogens that aren't an intestinal parasite, those that we don't have a good way of testing for, and those that are as yet undiscoved may be playing a role. Removing the frog and CO2 bombing the viv would knock down the springtail population with no risk of pathogen transmission in either direction.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

A month and a half has passed so I think an update is in order out of courtesy those who've helped me.

The frog is still alive, looking on the leaner side (doesn't appear to have gotten any skinnier, hard to make the call on whether it has gained weight as I don't want to be too optimistic) and I have yet to see it eat a single dusted fly, but it is still alive. In the past two weeks or so I've seen the frog a lot less often than I did a month ago. Before I would almost always see the frog 100% of the time when I look into the tank before noon. 40% of the time an hour or two before lights out. Now that figure has dropped to about 20% before noon and 5% before lights out. A large part of it is due to how it no longer climbs the front glass as much. I take this to be a good sign as any time it's not wasting staring at me through the glass is time it's potentially spending foraging to put on more weight.

I haven't made any changes to the tank (beyond trying to reach a 14 hour lights-on schedule (formerly 13 hours) in the past week) so I can only chalk things up to the frog acclimating and its "boldness" prior was just escape behavior.

Some images of the frog eating some invisible prey items instead of dusted flies.


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