# Question concerning some of my azureus offspring



## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Hi,
Unfortunately during the hot summer my springtail culture has broken down. Therefore I couldn't feed my latest azureus froglets springtails. I fed them drosophila, pea aphids and meadow plankton. All froglets which I fed this way are much thinner than those I fed springtails before. Is there a chance that they get fatter during the next months or will they stay such thin because they missed some neccassary growth spurt? By the way: All of them eat the things I feed them, so they don't suffer from intestinal obstruction.

(I don't have any pics yet, but it's easy to imagine... they look like adult tinctorius would look like if they are underfed ... a typical "V"-shape)

Thx for any reply

p.s.: In this context I'm interested in pictures of azureus or other tinctorius froglets in nature. Some people who have been in Suriname told me that the tinctorius found there have been way thinner than those in our vivs. But I never saw any picture of froglets, just adult ones.

Greets,
CF


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I feed all my Tincs and related size froglets small _D. Melanogaster_ exclusively after only 2 days or so of morphing out. Tinc froglets will take springtails but why not start them out with something bigger that you can dust right away?

What superfine dusting vitamins and supplements are you using?

I dust all my FF with some form of vitamin or calcium with every single feeding....especially all froglets.


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> I feed all my Tincs and related size froglets small _D. Melanogaster_ exclusively after only 2 days or so of morphing out.


Yep, that's what I actually did. But they are very thin, while those I additionally fed springtails are well-proportioned.
I'm wondering a bit now... If you do feed them just melanogaster and your's get fine mine are such thin for some other reason. 



Philsuma said:


> What superfine dusting vitamins and supplements are you using?


I use Herpetal Amphib (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/35840-herpetal.html) to dust my melanogaster 2-3 days the week, superfine powdered gammarus, spirulina and krill every other day.
I basically feed melanogaster, sporadically pea aphids and meadow plankton.

Apart from that do you think they still have a chance to get fatter? They are about 3 weeks old now.

Edit: After all I took some pictures. May be I just *think* they are to thin...but all other ones I raised before are much fatter.


























Greets,
CF


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## stingfrog (Apr 1, 2007)

Looks fine to me. Just keep feeding it dusted melanos and it will fatten up. Mine all start out on the skinny side. I only put springtails in with them when I first put them into deli cups after morphing then its melanos all the way until they can accept crickets and heidiis. Then they look like the swallowed marbles.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

If you want to fatten them.....try FF Larvae.

They do look a little thin from the pic....

I would think about switching up to a brand new vitamin / supplement or even a totally new brand. That would be one way to quickly verify that variable.

European meadow plankton is VERY labour intensive to harvest and has some inherent risks (pesticides or insects that MAY not be palitable or otherwise healthy for a south american frog). What is your reasoning for this food type?


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> If you want to fatten them.....try FF Larvae.
> 
> They do look a little thin from the pic....
> 
> I would think about switching up to a brand new vitamin / supplement or even a totally new brand. That would be one way to quickly verify that variable.


I'll try both things, but I don't know how to feed FF Larvae (FF means fruitfly, right?) How could I pull the maggots out of the media? Or should I put the whole media into the viv as some Canadians do?


Philsuma said:


> European meadow plankton is VERY labour intensive to harvest


Well, at least not for me. I need about 1/2 hour to harvest enough for about 150 froglets and adults.


Philsuma said:


> and has some inherent risks (pesticides or insects that MAY not be palitable or otherwise healthy for a south american frog). What is your reasoning for this food type?


The place I harvest the meadow plankton isn't known for the use of any pesticides, (neither the surrounding area is) and me and my brother go there since almost 10 years now. It's a rural environment but there are no acres with economic plants. So I think (hope) it's save. When I go there in the evening there are just small food items like drosophila, sciaridae, and such things.
I use this food type because I think it has a better ratio of unsaturised fatty acids to saturised fatty acids than cultured fruitflys.
You can see what I mean here:
Salze+korr.jpg (image)
That's an analysis of Dr. Bretz (german herpetologist) and it compares meadow plankton ("Wiesenplankton") with Drosophila hydei and feeder eggs of O. lehmanni.
[Edit: wrong analysis... this one just shows minerals and micronutrients... can't find the one with the unsaturised fatty acids, sorry. Nonetheless interesting.]
Me and my brother feed especially our adult breeding pairs large amounts of meadow plankton during summer and the quality of the egg clutches increases during this time.
We don't only harvest small food items, we feed our adult ameerega, epipedobates and phyllobates (especially aurotaenia) larger food items from another location.

Isn't it common in America to do so? *interested*

Greets,
CF


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There may be some other issues going other than the supplements.. To start off I would suspect that the problem is probably that the froglets are not getting sufficient fruitflies to support the rapid metabolism and growth required at that stage which is why they are a little on the thin side. For a discussion on the minimal metabolic needs of small frogs see this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...overfeeding-split-beginners-discussion-3.html

If I remember correctly Herpetal contains vitamin A in the form of retinyl/retinoic acid so it should be replaced approximately every six months to reduce loss of D3 levels in the supplement by increased catalyzed oxidation. 

From what I remember, nutritional levels of meadow plankton can vary signficantly between localities and areas but it does provide a good source of nutrition however some people may view the risks of coccidia, and iridioviruses as unacceptable. There is information in the literature showing that (for the iridiovirus info see Jacobson, Elliott R; 2007; Infectious diseases and Pathologies of Reptiles; CRC Press) these pathogens are carried in the invertebrates used to feed the amphibians. If there is a active infection in the region it can be transmitted to the frogs. 

Have you had a fecal done on the frogs? 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Ed said:


> There may be some other issues going other than the supplements.. To start off I would suspect that the problem is probably that the froglets are not getting sufficient fruitflies to support the rapid metabolism and growth required at that stage which is why they are a little on the thin side. For a discussion on the minimal metabolic needs of small frogs see this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...overfeeding-split-beginners-discussion-3.html


Okay, I could feed them more fruitflys. I'm just dealing this with great care because I don't want to stress them to much (based upon to much flys crawling around.)
Btw that (possible) overfeeding thread is an exellent discussion, think I'll read this from the get-go tomorrow (local time is past midnight right now over here)
Thx for posting this.


Ed said:


> If I remember correctly Herpetal contains vitamin A in the form of retinyl/retinoic acid so it should be replaced approximately every six months to reduce loss of D3 levels in the supplement by increased catalyzed oxidation.


You remember correctly, it provides vitamin A as retinol, not as betacarotin. I replace it every 6 month.


Ed said:


> From what I remember, nutritional levels of meadow plankton can vary signficantly between localities and areas but it does provide a good source of nutrition however some people may view the risks of coccidia, and iridioviruses as unacceptable. There is information in the literature showing that (for the iridiovirus info see Jacobson, Elliott R; 2007; Infectious diseases and Pathologies of Reptiles; CRC Press) these pathogens are carried in the invertebrates used to feed the amphibians. If there is a active infection in the region it can be transmitted to the frogs.
> 
> Have you had a fecal done on the frogs?
> 
> ...


Well, up to now I haven't had any issues with the pathogens you mentioned.
I hope I never will have some. As "our" meadow plankton seams to be of good quality (on a gut level... because we use it since many years) I'm not willing to pass on this food source.
I've done no fecal on the frogs. (<- hope, I didn't misword this  )
Thx for your comments so far.

greets,
CF


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can use feeding stations to reduce the roaming of the flies which will also reduce/prevent any stress caused by the flies. 

The reason I mentioned coccidia and the meadow plankton is that coccidia can cause those symptoms and a couple of fecal checks can give you the answer you need as treatment will usually fix the problem. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I don't know if we can use the words "coccidia" and "fix" in the same sentence....

"treat" maybe...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If a simple treatment results in a frog that is asymptomatic and non-shedding.. I think fix works just fine.. 

Ed


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

@Ed:
Ok, thx for information about coccidia. I didn't here about this before. Wikipedia says in the majority of cases coccidia will cause diarrhea if an animal is acutely affected. Would diarrhea apply to dartfrogs? Their feces are solid as far as I was able to determine.
I'll wait a while with these froglets as I know I'm sometimes to paranoid with them. May be they aren't the fittest (or fattest) just because it has been the last clutch before dry season and the pair has laid eggs for a long time. Meanwhile I found a good thread here on DB explaining how to feed FF larvae, so I'll give it a try.

The thread about the minimal metabolic needs of small frogs has inspired me to experience at the feeding frequences and quantity.

Despite it all, what "simple treatment" would it be?

greets,
CF


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Cutterfly said:


> @Ed:
> Ok, thx for information about coccidia. I didn't here about this before. Wikipedia says in the majority of cases coccidia will cause diarrhea if an animal is acutely affected. Would diarrhea apply to dartfrogs? Their feces are solid as far as I was able to determine.
> I'll wait a while with these froglets as I know I'm sometimes to paranoid with them. May be they aren't the fittest (or fattest) just because it has been the last clutch before dry season and the pair has laid eggs for a long time. Meanwhile I found a good thread here on DB explaining how to feed FF larvae, so I'll give it a try.
> 
> ...


Diarrhea does appear in amphibian infections but this may not be as obvious as rapid weight loss or a failure to gain weight. 

Usually coccidia can be readily treated through oral dosing with a drug like Albon. 

Ed


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## Cutterfly (Apr 9, 2009)

Okay, thx for your advice. 

greets,
CF


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## Ronm (Oct 1, 2006)

they're definatly too thin. I'd check for worms if they're mine.
Greets, Ron


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