# winter shipping - insulation



## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

A few weeks ago I posted this thread on a shipping box I was using for the winter months - http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/219298-new-winter-shipping-box.html. In that thread somebody asked how much difference the extra insulation really made. I wasn't sure so I decided to test it.

I started with the original shipping box - 14" x 12" x 13" with 1 1/4" insulation. 

I placed a temp data logger in the bottom of the box, sealed it all up, and placed it in my refrigerator for 12 hours. The temps in my refrigerator are about 35F.


Here are the results. The temps in the box started dropping right away. And it took about 2 1/2 hours for the inside of the box to be the same temp as the outside of the box.


Next I did the same test with the heavier insulated box, but without the PCM gel pack that's in this picture.


Here are those results. The temps in the box started dropping right away, as in the first test, but not quite as sharply. And it took about 3 to 3 1/2 hours for the temp inside the box to be the same as the outside temp.


So, I guess it shows that the extra insulation does help some, but I don't know that I would say it was a big difference. Clearly in both cases it was just a short time in the drop in temps to the point where any frogs would have been DOA.

It goes to show what I have been saying for a while now, the key to shipping frogs safely is not about the insulation, it's about what else you do to keep the frogs warm. Whether it be PCM gel packs, heat packs, or just shipping in ideal weather conditions.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think you should run this same experiment with the PCM pack to show us the difference. 

I also think it would be very helpful if you could move from the fridge to the freezer. Winter shipping is a big wild card for many of us and very few have the ability to log the data and figure out if anything we try will actually be effective. 

There are 2 things I would want to know. 1 would it be possible especially in the summer or spring to extend shipping from the very expensive and very size limited overnight shipping, to 2 or 3 day shipping. The second is winter shipping and by extension maybe even winter shipping with 2 or three day options.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Pubfiction said:


> I think you should run this same experiment with the PCM pack to show us the difference.


Actually, I have done that. Not sure I could locate the thread but basically the large heavy duty PCM gel pack I use kept the temps in the 70's for the 24 hour period I ran the test. 



Pubfiction said:


> I also think it would be very helpful if you could move from the fridge to the freezer. Winter shipping is a big wild card for many of us and very few have the ability to log the data and figure out if anything we try will actually be effective.


I'll have to see if that large a box will fit in my freezer 



Pubfiction said:


> There are 2 things I would want to know. 1 would it be possible especially in the summer or spring to extend shipping from the very expensive and very size limited overnight shipping, to 2 or 3 day shipping. The second is winter shipping and by extension maybe even winter shipping with 2 or three day options.


Not that I've done it on purpose, but I have on more than a few occasions had my packages not get there overnight in a variety of different weather conditions, both cold & hot, and I have yet to lose a frog.

BOY..............I hope I didn't just jinx myself


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I agree with Gary! I just ran a bunch of tests that ended last night.

I have a temperature data logger and I tested a double insulated Styrofoam box set-up with an outer cardboard box. The smaller 1" thick clam-shell Styrofoam cooler box is stuffed with 4 gel Cryopaks around six 2 oz deli cups, the temp data logger and sealed with packing tape. This smaller 1" thick clam-shell Styrofoam cooler box is then sandwiched between two Phase22 panels over two 72 hour heat packs on opposing ends in a larger 1 1/4" insulated Styrofoam cooler box that is also sealed with packing tape. I placed the box in my freezer which was set at 14 degrees Fahrenheit for the first 12 hours and the remaining 38 hours in my fridge at 35 degrees for a total of 49 hours. The temperature stayed at a constant 70 degrees for most of the time and then went gradually/slowly down to 60 degrees at the 49th hour.

As a contrast, Kevin H and Josh's Frogs both used a single styrofoam box with heat packs in with the frogs, but with gel phase22 or cryopacks and another styrofoam/gel pack insulation buffer between the frogs and it worked flawless in live practical use. The temperature inside was right at 70 degrees when I received them.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

dmartin72 said:


> I agree with Gary! I just ran a bunch of tests that ended last night.
> 
> I have a temperature data logger and I tested a double insulated Styrofoam box set-up with an outer cardboard box. The smaller 1" thick clam-shell Styrofoam cooler box is stuffed with 4 gel Cryopaks around six 2 oz deli cups, the temp data logger and sealed with packing tape. This smaller 1" thick clam-shell Styrofoam cooler box is then sandwiched between two Phase22 panels over two 72 hour heat packs on opposing ends in a larger 1 1/4" insulated Styrofoam cooler box that is also sealed with packing tape. I placed the box in my freezer which was set at 14 degrees Fahrenheit for the first 12 hours and the remaining 38 hours in my fridge at 35 degrees for a total of 49 hours. The temperature stayed at a constant 70 degrees for most of the time and then went gradually/slowly down to 60 degrees at the 49th hour.
> 
> As a contrast, Kevin H and Josh's Frogs both used a single styrofoam box with heat packs in with the frogs, but with gel phase22 or cryopacks and another styrofoam/gel pack insulation buffer between the frogs and it worked flawless in live practical use. The temperature inside was right at 70 degrees when I received them.


That's pretty interesting.

My next tests are going to be with heat packs. It's been quite a while since I've used them. I just happened to come across some in all the old frog stuff I have. Might as well put them to use.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

In the cold of winter, I wouldn't dare ship without a combination of heat packs and phase22 material. I like the 72 hour ones because they burn longer at a lower temperature.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

So I actually received a shipment of frogs in the last few weeks when the lows was in the 20s. They came in a styrofoam box, within a styfofoam box, inside a cardboard box. I believe the way it was arranged was that the inside styro had the frogs, newspaper, and 2 phase packs; and the outside styro had one heat pack. All the frogs made it alive.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm starting to wonder just how much using a foam insulated box really matters. It doesn't really seem to me that the foam insulation is doing that great a job keeping the warmth in or the cold out. Can you get just as good a result using a cardboard box with extra layers of cardboard along the sides? 

Has anybody shipped or received a shipment of frogs in something other than a foam insulated box?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Insulation matters as a matter of physics. What people tend to forget is the reason the LACY Act is and the things it prevents. Like 'on time guarantees' that people are so quick to claim, the LACY Act., in a way, prevents them. Shipments are not kept in a refrigerator, or freezer. This negates your test as your experiment does not represent real world peramiters. Whomever handles the shipping of live animals, assuming the container is claimed as such, must comply with said act. Transportation can not take place during uncontrolled and excessive temps. Packages must be held in room temperatures, etc. Insulation is for the extremes between. Realistically, and when averaged, temps should remain quite consistant.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

aspidites73 said:


> Shipments are not kept in a refrigerator, or freezer. This negates your test as your experiment does not represent real world peramiters.


Dave,

I agree with you that these are extreme conditions we're testing the boxes under and that "hopefully" the shipping box would not be exposed to these type of temps during the course of shipping. But, that's kind of the point. None of us know for certainty what are boxes are going to be exposed to during shipping. I don't think many of us are going to rely totally on the Post Office, Fed Ex, or UPS to handle our boxes properly during the entire shipping process.

So for me it's about coming up with a shipping box that can withstand some extreme conditions. If the box is kept indoors under room temperature for the whole trip THAT'S GREAT. But if not I want to be confident that it will stay make it to it's destination with the frogs still all toasty and warm. ESPECIALLY when I ship you your vanzos next week 

But, to be honest, I actually do think are boxes are kept relatively warm through the shipping process. Which is why I'm usually not overly concerned if one of my boxes gets delayed during shipping and takes and extra day to get there.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Simply not having the exact same conditions does not negate the test it simply raises additional questions. The main one is would the same package overheat and kill the frogs if temperatures were kept higher? If you can design a box with phase 22 panels or something that can withstand a freezer and not overheat if kept at 65F and last 3 days in either condition you should have a nearly bullet proof shipping protocol. The only question then becomes how much does it cost for materials and shipping. Extending shipping past overnight shipping will open up the size the box can be. Right now it seems a lot of people are forced to try and make everything work in a 9 inch cube otherwise the shipping price shoots up.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I come from the days that, if you wanted to ship most reptiles it was done airport to airport via Delta Airlines using their 'Delta Dash' service. Today's cost to send a couple frogs via fedex is half what I paid to have each and every snake I ever owned shipped to me.

Yes, testing perameters that are fundamentally different than the real world condition does negate the experiment. Have you ever used a temperature recording device and mailed it as if it were a live animal then, used the same device in a package sent simply as cargo? I have and it is quite different. Most all of the complaints about shippers (fedex, usps, ups, etc.) are related to perceived inconveniences. Can't ship from Location x, no refund on late delivery (with the false belief that time correlates directly with package health), hub is too far to drive to (without any consideration to the same drive the animal must take to relieve us of the burdon), etc. etc.. I've yet to see someone thank USPS for not sending the package on a truck running late because it would mean transit time in inappropriate temperatures. Insteaf we bitch about the package being late (but presumably in better condition). Better shipping conditions are our responsibility. Yes, mistakes happen, boxes are overlooked, rules sometimes broken. We need to mark, even over mark as LIVE ANIMALS (in caps to yell and hopefully prevent an overlooked package). We must be willing to drive a little to save our animals some of the trip. If not we will be back to using airport to airport service in no time!



Pubfiction said:


> Simply not having the exact same conditions does not negate the test it simply raises additional questions. The main one is would the same package overheat and kill the frogs if temperatures were kept higher? If you can design a box with phase 22 panels or something that can withstand a freezer and not overheat if kept at 65F and last 3 days in either condition you should have a nearly bullet proof shipping protocol. The only question then becomes how much does it cost for materials and shipping. Extending shipping past overnight shipping will open up the size the box can be. Right now it seems a lot of people are forced to try and make everything work in a 9 inch cube otherwise the shipping price shoots up.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

gary1218 said:


> So for me it's about coming up with a shipping box that can withstand some extreme conditions. If the box is kept indoors under room temperature for the whole trip THAT'S GREAT. But if not I want to be confident that it will stay make it to it's destination with the frogs still all toasty and warm. ESPECIALLY when I ship you your vanzos next week
> 
> But, to be honest, I actually do think are boxes are kept relatively warm through the shipping process. Which is why I'm usually not overly concerned if one of my boxes gets delayed during shipping and takes and extra day to get there.


Agreed, Gary!


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> I come from the days that, if you wanted to ship most reptiles it was done airport to airport via Delta Airlines using their 'Delta Dash' service. Today's cost to send a couple frogs via fedex is half what I paid to have each and every snake I ever owned shipped to me.
> 
> Yes, testing perameters that are fundamentally different than the real world condition does negate the experiment. Have you ever used a temperature recording device and mailed it as if it were a live animal then, used the same device in a package sent simply as cargo? I have and it is quite different. Most all of the complaints about shippers (fedex, usps, ups, etc.) are related to perceived inconveniences. Can't ship from Location x, no refund on late delivery (with the false belief that time correlates directly with package health), hub is too far to drive to (without any consideration to the same drive the animal must take to relieve us of the burdon), etc. etc.. I've yet to see someone thank USPS for not sending the package on a truck running late because it would mean transit time in inappropriate temperatures. Insteaf we bitch about the package being late (but presumably in better condition). Better shipping conditions are our responsibility. Yes, mistakes happen, boxes are overlooked, rules sometimes broken. We need to mark, even over mark as LIVE ANIMALS (in caps to yell and hopefully prevent an overlooked package). We must be willing to drive a little to save our animals some of the trip. If not we will be back to using airport to airport service in no time!


Nothing you said invalidates the data... Most ironically is after all that you quote Gary's first paragraph which essentially makes my case and say agreed. Most of it is just when I was old I had to walk to school 10 miles in 10 feet of snow up hill both ways. Great for you the new reality of the hobby is people need to start thinking about how they are going to stay competitive with the supply chain of the likes of petco and broaden accessibility of the frogs. Frogs cost half as much to ship for you now? Great what exactly would be wrong with us halving the price again? And if you have logged data present it with methods and explain how it contradicts and invalidates this data.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Yeah, the packages certainly aren't "room temp" the entire trip. Maybe when they're chilling in the actual facilities they are, but when they are on the back of the delivery trucks (and I believe on the airplane), they are not temperature controlled at all.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Years ago there used to be a couple of other people on the board here who did as much testing as I was doing. One of them actually did ship a package with the data logger on the outside of the box to record the temps the box actually was exposed to. A bunch of us chipped in to cover the cost of the overnight shipping to run the test. Unfortunately it was a while ago and I'm old so I don't really recall the results. Might be interesting to do again, particularly during the winter time.

I think there are data loggers that are like a flat disc that can attach to the outside of the box. Anybody use these? Of course the person on the receiving end would also have to have the software to read the disc.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I never said it invalidates the data. It invalidates the experiment as your not testing reality. It takes many years of schooling to go from an un-educated guess to an educated guess but it only takes 7 precise, concise, and simple steps to go from an educated guess to usable science. When any of those steps are violated, by definition, the experiment has failed. Step one must lead to step two. Where is that in our example?

And for the record, I quoted gary's second paragraph which was a personal reference to business he and I are conducting. Not the first paragraph as you suggest. You may have your own opinion but not your own facts!



Pubfiction said:


> Nothing you said invalidates the data... Most ironically is after all that you quote Gary's first paragraph which essentially makes my case and say agreed. Most of it is just when I was old I had to walk to school 10 miles in 10 feet of snow up hill both ways. Great for you the new reality of the hobby is people need to start thinking about how they are going to stay competitive with the supply chain of the likes of petco and broaden accessibility of the frogs. Frogs cost half as much to ship for you now? Great what exactly would be wrong with us halving the price again? And if you have logged data present it with methods and explain how it contradicts and invalidates this data.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

The ones I used to use were postage guaranteed back to the manufacturer which harvested the data and sent it to you. All the receiving party had to do was drop the device in a mailbox. I don't remember who they were, however. I used them for the more expensive snakes in case of a DOA so I could see if there was any fault and where the fault laid. If I saw a temp spike into 100 degrees a half hour after it was picked up I had a decent idea the recipients were the cause. 



gary1218 said:


> Years ago there used to be a couple of other people on the board here who did as much testing as I was doing. One of them actually did ship a package with the data logger on the outside of the box to record the temps the box actually was exposed to. A bunch of us chipped in to cover the cost of the overnight shipping to run the test. Unfortunately it was a while ago and I'm old so I don't really recall the results. Might be interesting to do again, particularly during the winter time.
> 
> I think there are data loggers that are like a flat disc that can attach to the outside of the box. Anybody use these? Of course the person on the receiving end would also have to have the software to read the disc.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

I'd really like this thread not to turn into an argument. I can understand where both sides are coming from. Let's just leave it at that...........please


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

aspidites73 said:


> The ones I used to use were postage guaranteed back to the manufacturer which harvested the data and sent it to you. All the receiving party had to do was drop the device in a mailbox. I don't remember who they were, however. I used them for the more expensive snakes in case of a DOA so I could see if there was any fault and where the fault laid. If I saw a temp spike into 100 degrees a half hour after it was picked up I had a decent idea the recipients were the cause.


Been doing a little checking online and the small single use ones I'm seeing are PRICEY.

On the other hand I'm thinking I could just place my data logger into a small uninsulated box and send it on it's way. With it being a small box and no insulation it should pretty much record the temps along the way, don't you think?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> I never said it invalidates the data. It invalidates the experiment as your not testing reality. It takes many years of schooling to go from an un-educated guess to an educated guess but it only takes 7 precise, concise, and simple steps to go from an educated guess to usable science. When any of those steps are violated, by definition, the experiment has failed. Step one must lead to step two. Where is that in our example?
> 
> And for the record, I quoted gary's second paragraph which was a personal reference to business he and I are conducting. Not the first paragraph as you suggest. You may have your own opinion but not your own facts!


What step in the scientific method do you think is the issue? I would say that rather than testing "winter shipping", this experiment is testing the packing method's effectiveness under extreme conditions. I also have to add, how many times have you sent out a temperature logging box? Do you think it's possible that a box could be exposed to lower temperatures then the one you sent out was? My father has been a currier for FedEx Express for over ten years now and believe me, those trucks get extremely cold in the winter and become an oven in the summer. There is VERY little temperature control. Also, don't feel so certain that you're pachages are being kept under proper conditions as there are always idiots who can't follow directions (even with LIVE ANIMALS written all over the box). I would feel much more comfortable shipping out a box with frogs in it during the winter if I know it could handle freezing conditions. 

John

PS - Some people only teach 5 steps of the scientific method (7 are better though)


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I am currently only interested in the effects of extreme cold on an insulated shipping box over a long'ish period of time (48 hours). However, I think I'll test the freezer for 12 hours, the fridge for 12 hours, my 74 degree frog room for 12 hours and the fridge for another 12 hours for a total of 48 hours.

I have recently received 4 separate boxes from the East Coast...two routed through Memphis and two routed through Indianapolis where the temperatures were at or below freezing in areas along the way and just above freezing in Seattle. I worked for both Fedex and UPS and the delivery trucks every step along the way are not temperature controlled and I doubt the cargo sections of the planes are as well. That being said, all of the boxes I received were single insulated styrofoam boxes using a combination of Cryopaks, gel heat/cold packs and heat packs inside with the frogs. The center of every box next to the frogs was at 70 degrees or slightly below. Each box was layered or separated from the heating packs with Cryopaks, a tight fitting styrofoam cut panel and/or gel heat/cold packs as a barrier. I have done enough testing in the freezer and received many, many winter-time boxes to know how important and effective the combination of Cryopaks, heat packs and some type of insulated barrier from the frogs inside a insulated box is for cold winter shipping to be confident to do it. I would still use a styrofoam box inside a styrofoam box inside a cardboard box for the sturdiness.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

The problem as I see it is continuity between steps. Question was "is there a better shipping box" but the experiment only tested a shipping box not being shipped. Gary's data was valid. A fridge will cool shipping boxes to equilibrium in 2-3 hours. Experiment was invalid as formulated question was not tested to real world standards. All we now know is that if our animals were shipped in a refrigerator they would be dead in 2-3 hours.

That being said, I appreciate Gary's drive for better protocol and suspect any frogs I were to obtain from him would be packaged in what he has had the best success with. 



FroggyKnight said:


> What step in the scientific method do you think is the issue? I would say that rather than testing "winter shipping", this experiment is testing the packing method's effectiveness under extreme conditions. I also have to add, how many times have you sent out a temperature logging box? Do you think it's possible that a box could be exposed to lower temperatures then the one you sent out was? My father has been a currier for FedEx Express for over ten years now and believe me, those trucks get extremely cold in the winter and become an oven in the summer. There is VERY little temperature control. Also, don't feel so certain that you're pachages are being kept under proper conditions as there are always idiots who can't follow directions (even with LIVE ANIMALS written all over the box). I would feel much more comfortable shipping out a box with frogs in it during the winter if I know it could handle freezing conditions.
> 
> John
> 
> PS - Some people only teach 5 steps of the scientific method (7 are better though)


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Do you have a guess as to what temperature would be experienced in an environmentally non-controlled airplane cargo area? These planes fly at 30,000 feet.



dmartin72 said:


> I am currently only interested in the effects of extreme cold on an insulated shipping box over a long'ish period of time (48 hours). However, I think I'll test the freezer for 12 hours, the fridge for 12 hours, my 74 degree frog room for 12 hours and the fridge for another 12 hours for a total of 48 hours.
> 
> I have recently received 4 separate boxes from the East Coast...two routed through Memphis and two routed through Indianapolis where the temperatures were at or below freezing in areas along the way and just above freezing in Seattle. I worked for both Fedex and UPS and the delivery trucks every step along the way are not temperature controlled and I doubt the cargo sections of the planes are as well. That being said, all of the boxes I received were single insulated styrofoam boxes using a combination of Cryopaks, gel heat/cold packs and heat packs inside with the frogs. The center of every box next to the frogs was at 70 degrees or slightly below. Each box was layered or separated from the heating packs with Cryopaks, a tight fitting styrofoam cut panel and/or gel heat/cold packs as a barrier. I have done enough testing in the freezer and received many, many winter-time boxes to know how important and effective the combination of Cryopaks, heat packs and some type of insulated barrier from the frogs inside a insulated box is for cold winter shipping to be confident to do it. I would still use a styrofoam box inside a styrofoam box inside a cardboard box for the sturdiness.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

No clue...but Gary or I should send the temperature logger in a small non-insulated Fedex express box or envelope so that it captures the actual temps without insulation.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

dmartin72 said:


> Gary or I should send the temperature logger in a small non-insulated Fedex express box or envelope so that it captures the actual temps without insulation.


I would be happy to do that. But we would have to have the same data logger so that you the software to read it.

I have an EL-USB-2 temp data logger. Any chance you can read that one?

Shipping from NY out to you in WA would be a good test.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I have the EL-USB-2 as well...lol.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

dmartin72 said:


> I have the EL-USB-2 as well...lol.


COOL!

How about if I ship a package out to you a day next week? Is there a day next week that would work for you? I'll ship it USPS Express Mail 1 Day in one of their flat rate padded envelopes. You can PM me your address.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Do they require a signature? I'll send it back the same way so that we get two samples. I'll pm you soon.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

gary1218 said:


> COOL!
> 
> How about if I ship a package out to you a day next week? Is there a day next week that would work for you? I'll ship it USPS Express Mail 1 Day in one of their flat rate padded envelopes. You can PM me your address.


There is a slight problem with this test. If you don't send it as a LIVE ANIMAL you will only know what temps are seen by a standard cargo package. I suspect they will be from a non pressurized cargo hold, quite cold! This is not where live animals (should) would be shipped.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Are you saying that Fedex/UPS/USPS has a separate area for live animals? I worked at both UPS and Fedex for years and never heard of no such a thing. Furthermore, most of the shipments of frogs that I have received were not labeled "live animals" anywhere on the box as to not draw attention to them...you know box soccer mentality.



aspidites73 said:


> There is a slight problem with this test. If you don't send it as a LIVE ANIMAL you will only know what temps are seen by a standard cargo package. I suspect they will be from a non pressurized cargo hold, quite cold! This is not where live animals (should) would be shipped.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I used to load airplane-belly-shaped-cargo-containers for Fedex who also flies USPS mail (although at a different time of the day) and they just loaded those directly into the airplane.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

dmartin72 said:


> Furthermore, most of the shipments of frogs that I have received were not labeled "live animals" anywhere on the box as to not draw attention to them...you know box soccer mentality.


So, you're admitting to, and condoning the breaking of Federal Law? No, I don't know of this.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Gary, Would you consider sending the temp recorder with frogs you're about to ship? It would represent a real world example of temperatures seen in properly, and legally shipped animals.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

aspidites73 said:


> Gary, Would you consider sending the temp recorder with frogs you're about to ship? It would represent a real world example of temperatures seen in properly, and legally shipped animals.


That wouldn't work. The temp logger would be inside the box with the frogs and the large heavy duty PCM gel pack I use to keep the frogs warm. It wouldn't register the outside temps.

But, what I could do is ship a box with no frogs in it and no insulation and label it LIVE ANIMALS to see if there's any difference in the results from the shipping the temp logger with no LIVE ANIMALS label.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

gary1218 said:


> That wouldn't work. The temp logger would be inside the box with the frogs and the large heavy duty PCM gel pack I use to keep the frogs warm. It wouldn't register the outside temps.
> 
> But, what I could do is ship a box with no frogs in it and no insulation and label it LIVE ANIMALS to see if there's any difference in the results from the shipping the temp logger with no LIVE ANIMALS label.



Do you have one of those inexpensive zoomed high/low thermometers? Maybe seeing a stored "Low temp" would be of benefit.

EDIT: Does outside temperature really matter if the inside stays within required range? If your large PCM pack does it's job i'm not too sure I would care what temps were seen on the exterior. Your initial test already showed that the boxes probably do not experience refrigerator like temps for more than an hour or so or else we would have many more DOA's, correct?


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

aspidites73 said:


> Do you have one of those inexpensive zoomed high/low thermometers? Maybe seeing a stored "Low temp" would be of benefit.


No, I don't have those.



aspidites73 said:


> EDIT: Does outside temperature really matter if the inside stays within required range?


I guess the answer to that would be "No". And while I'm very confident my way of shipping frogs will get them to their destination in good shape under even severe weather conditions I'm curious what kind of conditions the shipping process puts the box through. I'm just satisfying my own curiosity.



aspidites73 said:


> Your initial test already showed that the boxes probably do not experience refrigerator like temps for more than an hour or so or else we would have many more DOA's, correct?


I haven't done any kind of testing like that. I really have no idea what kind of temps the shipping box goes through and for how long a time. It's my "assumption" that the boxes probably don't see extreme temps for a long period of time. On the other hand maybe they do but my packaging is good enough so that they frogs aren't affected. It will be interesting to see if the test dmartin72 and I are doing will shed any light on that.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

aspidites73 said:


> I never said it invalidates the data. It invalidates the experiment as your not testing reality. It takes many years of schooling to go from an un-educated guess to an educated guess but it only takes 7 precise, concise, and simple steps to go from an educated guess to usable science. When any of those steps are violated, by definition, the experiment has failed. Step one must lead to step two. Where is that in our example?
> 
> And for the record, I quoted gary's second paragraph which was a personal reference to business he and I are conducting. Not the first paragraph as you suggest. You may have your own opinion but not your own facts!


You are trying to word your way around this if you want to do that fine. You have yet to explain how it invalidates the "experiment". 

If the package can withstand more harsh conditions than what is actually encountered that is a perfectly applicable experiment. It raises another question would it over heat if heat packs were put in it? I believe that would be step 2 in your comment already suggested above. Makers of all sorts of products test in more extreme conditions using perfectly sensible assumptions to conduct perfectly acceptable experiments. Your comments suggest that the assumptions of temperature are wrong, fine what if they are wrong, as a critic you have to tell us why we should be worried about that if you wish to invalidate an experiment and suggest appropriate further experiments, not just say its all wrong and invalid. Personally it doesn't worry me, if Gary's testing can shed light on packaging techniques that can survive a fridge or even freezer and that is worse than it will be at FedEx I find that to be a useful experiment, and no one had to waste any money shipping something or make any assumptions about exactly how long the box stays at what temperatures.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

gary1218 said:


> I haven't done any kind of testing like that. I really have no idea what kind of temps the shipping box goes through and for how long a time. It's my "assumption" that the boxes probably don't see extreme temps for a long period of time. On the other hand maybe they do but my packaging is good enough so that they frogs aren't affected. It will be interesting to see if the test dmartin72 and I are doing will shed any light on that.


Sure you have. You initial test showed that if boxes were kept at ~35 degrees F. that the internal temps would reach equilibrium in about 2 hours. If that represented real world conditions our animals would die within that same period. Obviously not the case.

EDIT: your assumption isn't as much as you may believe. If Fedex did ship within the conditions you tested we would have way more DOA's! Why do you think SYR has NO DOA guarantee with on time shipments? Possibly because 24 hours in a properly assembled package won't cause a DOA?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Obviously a refrigerator is more harsh than FedEx. Gary's initial test showed that temps would reach DOA temps within a 2 hour time frame.. What it didn't show was an answer to his posited question, "Is there a better package to ship in?" Hence my argument the experiments were invalid to the question. He didn't test shipping conditions. As you point out; what about heat packs? Surely they could be used to adjust his results to acceptable. Would that mean we should now ship with that number of heat packs? Of course not. If only for the same reason I have already pointed out: The experiment was invalid to the question it was supposed to test. 


EDIT: In other words, if you get the package able to withstand harsher conditions, will lack of those conditions cause overheating? We, at that point, would still not know.

EDIT #2: Until a package is sent containing similar mass as our packaging, marked and shipped as though it were indeed a live animal, and tracked for temperature, all of this is speculation at best.

EDIT #3: Besides, are we experiencing that many DOA's to warrant a search for improved conditions? I've been shipping live Herptiles since 1989 with only one DOA. That DOA was 1 frog out of a package containing 9+ frogs. It doesn't seem like the system is broken. Assuming we aren't looking for a way to ship animals VIA a less expensive and slower service. Are we?

EDIT #4 I still admire Gary's desire to do things better!

EDIT #5 A $10 zoomed hi/low thermometer shipped with a package of frogs would give more usable data!



Pubfiction said:


> You are trying to word your way around this if you want to do that fine. You have yet to explain how it invalidates the "experiment".
> 
> If the package can withstand more harsh conditions than what is actually encountered that is a perfectly applicable experiment. It raises another question would it over heat if heat packs were put in it? I believe that would be step 2 in your comment already suggested above. Makers of all sorts of products test in more extreme conditions using perfectly sensible assumptions to conduct perfectly acceptable experiments. Your comments suggest that the assumptions of temperature are wrong, fine what if they are wrong, as a critic you have to tell us why we should be worried about that if you wish to invalidate an experiment and suggest appropriate further experiments, not just say its all wrong and invalid. Personally it doesn't worry me, if Gary's testing can shed light on packaging techniques that can survive a fridge or even freezer and that is worse than it will be at FedEx I find that to be a useful experiment, and no one had to waste any money shipping something or make any assumptions about exactly how long the box stays at what temperatures.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm also of the opinion that heat packs should be used outside the insulation and inside the box to provide a layer of protection. Heat ALWAYS goes to cold. In the presence of cold, our heat packs will dissipate before our insulated, and precious cargo begin to lose heat. In the absence of cold the insulation will keep the heat from penetrating too quickly.


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