# Can Humidity be Too High?



## Lakrasia (Jan 30, 2016)

Hiya, 

We bought two leucomelas last week and they seem to be settling in now.

I wanted to check about humidity as it's over 90% all the time. I presume this is OK, but as I'm new, I wanted to make sure by asking here.

Thanks in advance.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Since frogs breed through their skin 90% should be good at night, but during the day lower humidity is better..


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The nearer humidity is to 100%, the less the frogs can thermoregulate by transpiration.

If you are using a digital hygrometer, plan on it failing very soon in that high humidity. They cannot be used in condensing environments.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It can definitely be too high. They can drown. 

s


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Too high of humidity can also kill a lot of the more sensitive plants that appreciate good airflow, which is why I can't ever get more than anything besides ficus, pothos, and philodendron to grow for me.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

FWIW, leucs are fairly tolerant of low humidity as far as dart frogs go. Keepers who want to control their breeding will reduce misting and humidity for a while (months) to simulate natural environmental patterns.


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## Lakrasia (Jan 30, 2016)

Thank you all SO much. I think it's caused by the heat mats being underneath. One of our plants started dying because the soil dried up from the heat. For this reason we have been watering them a lot more.

We just turned one mat off and we have some new ones on order that have controls on them. We'll stick them at the back. The current set up is perfect as far as temperature goes, so I don't know if it will be warm enough with the mats at the back, but we think they're hotter than the existing ones.

One frog was calling a couple of days ago, which I take as a sign of health and happiness. I'm relieved we got all this help from you before anything bad happened.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Lakrasia said:


> Thank you all SO much. I think it's caused by the heat mats being underneath. One of our plants started dying because the soil dried up from the heat. For this reason we have been watering them a lot more.


You must have a very nonstandard setup, if your substrate is drying. Most keepers have a drainage area under the substrate where water collects; with this design, a heat pad on the bottom will indeed raise humidity with temperature, but the substrate does not (and should not) ever dry out. Frogs need a moist substrate, so that they can find moister microclimates if they need to take on water through their skin.

Most keepers don't run supplemental heat, by the way. Leucs are fine with daily excursions into the low 60s F in the winter, and lighting often adds enough heat during the day to get the viv to 70-75F.


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## Lakrasia (Jan 30, 2016)

Thanks. Yes, you're right - it is non-standard; we bought a purpose-built 40 gallon viv for frogs. It has a sloping bottom with a trough at the front, so we only put clay in the trough. We didn't add much water to the clay because it's so humid in there as it is.There's a separate cavity underneath the sloping part for the heat mats to go in. I recently noticed a problem as the substrate is really warm and I think the dwarf isopods all died, unfortunately.

The temperature last night was 15 degrees in this room(59 F), so they'll be too cold, especially if it drops much further. The light doesn't give off much heat and it's on a timer, so that won't help as it's off at night.

Maybe you have your central heating on, as I notice it's even colder in Wisconsin than it is in London, but it's about 19 C (66.2 F) in this room and anything more would be unbearable for me, so we have to heat the viv.

I just hope that heating it from the back works. It will be days before the heating mat arrives.

We are new to this and a bit anxious. I really do appreciate your advice.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Understood. Most of us in the US build vivs like I described, so you might find yourself having to explain your setup every time you ask a question here. 

And yes, central heat is _de rigueur_ here; we heat huge houses to 75F in the winter and cool them to 68 in the summer.  A little overstated, maybe, but we're much more likely to have rooms near frog temp than folks in your part of the world.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

I think frog people are different. All the "heat the room" responses are madding. 

The only person I knew who would heat their house above 72 degrees was my grandpa.

And in the summer I believe most people shoot for below 74 degrees.

If it's anything other than 71 in the office people go mad.

At night I believe most people turn down the temp into the mid 60's.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> And yes, central heat is _de rigueur_ here; we heat huge houses to 75F in the winter and cool them to 68 in the summer.  *A little overstated, maybe*, but we're much more likely to have rooms near frog temp than folks in your part of the world.


Yes, I was being hyperbolic for effect.  Sorry if that bothers anyone, but if I can't have a personality here, then you're on your own. 

Mid 60s to 74 are indeed "frog temps", and are a much narrower range than I've read our European friends tolerate indoors. 

Part of the "heat the room" recommendations imply -- or outright state -- that if you can't maintain stable room temps, then you simply shouldn't keep captive animals that require stable temps. No one in Wisconsin should own an Aldabra tortoise, either, for the same reason. Shouldn't be anything maddening about simple common sense advice.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

But there are solutions that don't require heating the room. People keep tropical saltwater fish at 80 degrees. They don't heat their house that warm.

We need a simple cost effective way to heat our glass boxes. People are afraid to tape a heat cable to the bottom of the box because of some anecdotal evidence the glass can crack.

I heat all my tanks. I believe the frogs like it in the mid 70's. No way I want my house that hot. 

BTW, my tanks without heat measured up to several degrees BELOW room temp due to evaporation. My home humidity is 30% or less so there is a big gradient there.

Ideally, a waterproof low voltage wire in the water at the bottom of the tank controlled by a thermostat would be ideal. Should be a no brainer.

If you have a couple of inches of water in the bottom of the tank you could use a fish tank heater. The problem with that is you cant change it out if it breaks or you can't adjust the temp once you put your tank together.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Heating the back wall and a side wall, in portion or full, depending on application has taken the place of other types of heating methods for me.

There is a nice buffered dynamic that is easy to control and doesnt heat the ground unnaturally.

Substrate levels are still warmed, creating a very natural humidity creating dynamic - especially if they are deep. 

But principles arent in contention with one another, and most importantly, its a very safe application, with Gradients Aplenty.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

jeffkruse said:


> But there are solutions that don't require heating the room. People keep tropical saltwater fish at 80 degrees. They don't heat their house that warm.
> 
> We need a simple cost effective way to heat our glass boxes.


This really does sum up the situation. Aquarium heating has been standardized and is very effective and reliable for *any* aquarium system. 

Frog vivs, not so much -- based on threads here, anyway, and based on the discussions I've had with people at herp shows (I'm a vendor, though not frogs) trying to set up their first enclosure. Heating a viv isn't standardized (there's no off the shelf system) and isn't as reliable (mostly from ventilation variability, but also from the range of build configurations that people come up with).

Yes, for some people (you, it sounds like, and that's just fine) heating the viv is going to be the best solution. But when novices ask about it, implying like they think it is going to be like dropping a heater in there and that's it, they get advised that there is a more effective (always) and more simple (possibly) option. 

Plus, cooling a viv is borderline rocket science (hyperbole again ) -- hence the emphasis on climate-controlled rooms. People who tolerate extreme lows in their homes could also be suspected to be less prepared to deal with unusual high temps (such as many Europeans this past year).


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Another thing not mentioned here, is that when humidity stays at a constant high, (IE. 100%), not only can they not thermo-regulate (as mentioned), but they could also potentially develop bacterial infections in their lungs & otherwise. 

I’ve always been of the belief that more ventilation is better than not enough. 
Darts can live in tanks with humidity as low as 60%. 
You want the tank to dry in between misting. 
You don’t want the tank constantly wet. 
(Unless it’s breeding season). 


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you Gamble. I was just about to point out the potential for respiratory infections. I like to see something more around 70%. Of course that tends to go up at night and after misting cycles. Some fluctuation is fine and natural.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Thank you Gamble. I was just about to point out the potential for respiratory infections. I like to see something more around 70%. Of course that tends to go up at night and after misting cycles. Some fluctuation is fine and natural.



Agreed. I think low-mid 70s is a good range as well. 

How you been Doug? 


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Gamble said:


> Agreed. I think low-mid 70s is a good range as well.
> 
> How you been Doug?
> 
> ...


Working on getting better, Nick. Max and I tried to help at a late night auto accident, and both got our heads cracked open for our trouble. I feel a good 30% stupider now, so uh, if you see me posting something stupid, yeah.
A good number of my orchids survived, but I lost EVERY non-orchid plant I had in the months following the assault. The bottom third of The Jungle Gym is 100% dead. No more epiphyte ferns. No more marcs and rhaphs. No dangling, tiny leafed pepperomias. My vegetable gardens have become my self prescribed therapy last summer and this spring. Actually, I kept several of my garden beds alive through a Colorado winter. I'm 2 months away from having my gardens run non-stop for a full year. Nothing like harvesting a garden fresh salad on Christmas. Every single plant I grow is open pollinated and/or heirloom. No hybrids.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Working on getting better, Nick. Max and I tried to help at a late night auto accident, and both got our heads cracked open for our trouble. I feel a good 30% stupider now, so uh, if you see me posting something stupid, yeah.
> A good number of my orchids survived, but I lost EVERY non-orchid plant I had in the months following the assault. The bottom third of The Jungle Gym is 100% dead. No more epiphyte ferns. No more marcs and rhaphs. No dangling, tiny leafed pepperomias. My vegetable gardens have become my self prescribed therapy last summer and this spring. Actually, I kept several of my garden beds alive through a Colorado winter. I'm 2 months away from having my gardens run non-stop for a full year. Nothing like harvesting a garden fresh salad on Christmas. Every single plant I grow is open pollinated and/or heirloom. No hybrids.



Interesting. 

Sorry to hear about the rest though. I’m glad you’re doing ok. (Yesterday was my first time on here in years ... very surprised & happy to see that it’s still very active!)

So do I see that you’re going to be getting back into the hobby as well? 


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Gamble said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Sorry to hear about the rest though. I’m glad you’re doing ok. (Yesterday was my first time on here in years ... very surprised & happy to see that it’s still very active!)
> 
> ...


It's my first time back in years, too. I would love to be back in the hobby, but finances tell me to enjoy my orchids.


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