# Oxytocin



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Has anyone ever tried to use oxytocin on their frogs before to get them to breed? if so what were your experience.


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## TameYourself (Nov 17, 2007)

I'm not sure if that works on amphibians, even if it did I don't htink it would be a good idea. You would still need a male to fertilize them. Oxytocin won't make the male any more interested in fertilization.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If doesn't work that way in amphibians. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

It does work on amphibiams, i have used when there was a calling male and the female showed no interest in mating and it worked great, it was used on tomato frogs back when they were not very popular.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

TameYourself said:


> I'm not sure if that works on amphibians, even if it did I don't htink it would be a good idea. You would still need a male to fertilize them. Oxytocin won't make the male any more interested in fertilization.


Oh, that's easily corrected. Just crush up some viagra and powder the male's FFs with it :roll:


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## jeffreyvmd (Oct 16, 2004)

*oxytocin*

Oxytocin is a mammalian hormone that also acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain. There has been recent research on this hormone and found that it has other effects including effects on social behavior. But the 3 main effects of oxytocin include, stimulation of milk letdown, stimulation of uterine smooth muscle contraction and establishment of maternal behavior by having effects in the brain. Although I have seen it used in birds and reptiles for egg binding, it is not as effective as it is in mammals. But that said, since the oxytocin does increase in the brain and we are still finding subtle effects in the body, I could not say that it doesn't work but I would also suggest not using it because you do not know how it will affect a pdf vs a tomato frog. Just my opinion though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> It does work on amphibiams, i have used when there was a calling male and the female showed no interest in mating and it worked great, it was used on tomato frogs back when they were not very popular.


Really? Do you have a citation for that reference? I kind of doubt that you do as it wasn't oxytocin used on the tomato frogs but LH and FSH..... Mammalian hormones don't work as well in anurans so they are not the ideal ones to try but the ones used in salmon are pretty effective. (See Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Krieger Press 2001). 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Unfortunately where i worked they would not share the info. just about everything is kept very secretively at this facility.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Alright Julio, I've got to ask, what zoo did you work for?

Most if not all zoos are very eager to share breeding practices since the common goal of all the zoos I can think of is to maintain captive populations. I'm rather curious at what zoo would choose to keep those successes secret.

So what zoo did you work for? I'd be interested in contacting them and verifying their success with oxytocin in anurans. It could be very useful for some of these more difficult-to-breed species.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Bronx Zoo. Feel free to call if you like, but i doubt they would give you any info. Most of the breeding info is mainly shared among zoos themselves...is not very often that they would volunteer info to the public unless it was necesary. I stopped working there over 10 years ago though, so who knows if they changed their practices, since Jhon Bhelar passed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> Bronx Zoo. Feel free to call if you like, but i doubt they would give you any info. Most of the breeding info is mainly shared among zoos themselves...is not very often that they would volunteer info to the public unless it was necesary. I stopped working there over 10 years ago though, so who knows if they changed their practices, since Jhon Bhelar passed.



Odd, the tomato frog reproductions in the Zoos at that time were not handled in the individual zoos but were sent to a researcher in California.. I can probably run down the exact institution if I look... 
The tomato frogs were not bred with oxytocin but FSH and LH... 
One of the reasons I have that little tidbit of information as I have been working with amphibians at a Zoo not that far from there (Philly) for the last 15 years.. 
Also the Bronx Zoo has an excellant reputation for sharing information to those who asked it even well before your employment there (like in the early 1980s)... and were even referenced as a good source of information to the hobbyist in at least one book (Encyclopedia of Reptiles and Amphibians by David Breen)... 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey Ed,
That might be the case that it was a different substance, but that is what all the keepers were told... I was an intern at the time of the tomato frog breeding experiment. And they were bred in house, not at a research lab, maybe yoru institution sent them to a lab, but the Bronx Zoo didn't i can assure you of that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Initally all of the AZA Zoos (about 15 years ago initially) sent all of the Dyscophus to the institution to get them breeding as there was no success in Zoos using conventional methods (cycling etc) (there was one report for a reproduction in a greenhouse). They were bred at the lab and the methodology was developed and figured out and offspring from those adults were then returned to various institutions. These were then reared and several more generations were bred in the lab.. Some Zoos then went on to try the methodology out and bred them using FSH and LH as was established in the lab. 
This cycle was recently repeated as the populations in the Zoos had declined significantly.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey Ed, 
this is how they did it as i vaguely remember, the frogs were place in a soggy environment of water and sphagnum moss for several weeks before calling as observed or heard..... 
Then they were placed in 20 gallong longs of just strictly RO water of about 2-3 inches deep, over the course of a week or two, the frogs laid several strands of eggs. There were two groups of 4 setup, not sure on the ration of male and female. 
I was not the person who bred them so i could not give you more details, the person who worked with them was Claire, sorry dont' remember her last name and she then moved on to a different department, children's zoo i believe.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

And where exactly did the oxytocin come into play?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

they were injected with it, not sure at what point of the breeding proccess, but if i am not mistaken, it was when they were solely in water.


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## xitch (Dec 5, 2007)

*oxytocin = mammalian, try general*

i doubt that oxytocin would have a great effect on an amphibians physiological responses, as, like posted earlier, it's main functions are milk letdown and smooth muscle (uterine) contractions.

I work with Hylids, doing acoustic research (male calling attributes and female preferences for those attributes). In the summer we catch amplectic pairs around ponds, but this time of year, as you might guess, they're not exactly 'round the swimmin' hole. These amplectic females have "told" us, and the male frogs, that they're ready to mate, simply by going to the pond and attending choruses. However, in the cooler months, we "trick" the females into thinking that they are ready to breed by injections of prostaglandin and progesterone. We've since stopped one of these injections due to ill-effects [forgot which one at the moment], but they would be my best guess to use, since we use them to "get females ready," so-to-speak. The males will tell you when they're ready by their calling.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well like Ed said before, they might have used a different hormone rather than oxytocin, but i was under the impression that is what was presented to the staff, but i could be wrong, i am not always right.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

looks like someones changing his words a bit :wink: 

No one challenges Ed!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i am not changing my words, it was presented to me and the rest of the staff as oxytocin, it might have been something else as stated by Ed, i was not the one in charge of the breeding project, but we all discussed during lunch just like everything else that was goign on in the facility..... i was in charge of the east breeding platform at the time, not the tomatos.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Lol 

wow cut Julio a break...it could have been an honest mistake. While I certainly do not wish to challenge Ed...I can't say that I understand the dynamics of US zoos and aquariums (and I do not believe that they are always “willing to collaborate breeding efforts”. Many of these animals are placed on display for visitors to come see and understand the importance of conservation, which is very noteworthy. But many times displaying these animals counteracts breeding these animals. Exhibits are put together so animals can be viewed in a "natural' setting (or disturbed, depending on the conservation story that the zoo wants to portray), grouped with other animals that they can coexist with (again maybe not the best for breeding). 
It would seem that, with the vast array of different animals in a zoological institution, becoming an "expert" on each one is not always possible. This is where smaller hobbyist may become important. But while zoos may "collaborate ideas" with these hobbyists, sometimes the person best equipped for breeding efforts with these animals aren’t the ones with the animals. I feel like the captive husbandry efforts made by the "smaller guy/gal" are often forgotten in the mix, and these people are not often given the opportunity to work with these animals despite the person’s capability to "devote more time to fewer animals" and become specialized with a particular animal that needs captive breeding efforts. I do believe European zoological facilities are much better with involving the hobbyists in captive breeding efforts (Some of these animals are given to specialized hobbyists to work with and breed). I’m not sure why zoological institutions are always looked at as the “most capable” to work with a group of animals needing captive reproduction efforts

Not to mention zoos aren’t always the best at paying for animals on time (sorry had to grumble about personal experience).


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I don't know _each and every particular _of the situation, but I think when the vanzolinii were seized in Europe and the authorities decided to put them in he hands of Divossen instead of the zoo would be an example of what Mike is referring to, albeit I am sure there are others...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> Hey Ed,
> this is how they did it as i vaguely remember, the frogs were place in a soggy environment of water and sphagnum moss for several weeks before calling as observed or heard.....
> Then they were placed in 20 gallong longs of just strictly RO water of about 2-3 inches deep, over the course of a week or two, the frogs laid several strands of eggs. There were two groups of 4 setup, not sure on the ration of male and female.
> I was not the person who bred them so i could not give you more details, the person who worked with them was Claire, sorry dont' remember her last name and she then moved on to a different department, children's zoo i believe.


This is actually pretty close to the same method that was published in the Taxon Management account in 1994 by the Bronx Zoo (published by Michael Hicks). They were cycled in that method and then injected with LH. (at that time, there was only one (1) reported captive breeding without hormones in a greenhouse in California. 
There was also a discussion in a 1987 Issue of the Vivarium on breeding Tomato frogs using LHRH hormones. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sbreland said:


> I don't know _each and every particular _of the situation, but I think when the vanzolinii were seized in Europe and the authorities decided to put them in he hands of Divossen instead of the zoo would be an example of what Mike is referring to, albeit I am sure there are others...


In Europe (depending on the country) often the animals are offered to the Zoos first and then to the private individuals instead of euthanizing the frogs. As the zoos may not have any room (and may have indicated that to the relevent authorities) the animals can go directly to the private individuals. 
At this time, in the USA, the majority of seized animals if a Zoo doesn't accept them, may be euthanized. Part of the reason, the US Zoos may be hesitant to accept animals is that they are often running at close to capacity for what they have room/employees to manage and the addition of potentially hundreds of animals can have significant impacts on not only the collection but the seized animals. 
There has been some changes in this with the advent of the TSA (Turtle Survivial Alliance) and if we get people using it and documenting thier animals TWI's ASN. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AQUAMAC said:


> I can't say that I understand the dynamics of US zoos and aquariums (and I do not believe that they are always “willing to collaborate breeding efforts”.


This is often tossed around and lets look at this for a moment... We often get contacted by private individuals who propose some variation of give me your animals and I'll breed them to my animals and give you back some offspring or I'll give you some of my animals to breed to yours (although this offer is much less frequently made than the previous one)... When the Zoo declines (and there are a lot of reasons why this is often declined the person often gives a rant about how we don't want to work with the hobbyists... (in a different thread we can discuss this but it has a lot to do with how some animals like some of the Dyscophus ended up in the pet trade). 
Now Zoos publish a lot of the information that is developed in thier facilites in a number of venues including journals and even conferences (like the old Captive Propegation Symposiums (or even IHS)) where it is available to anyone who wants to look it up... 
So what exactly are you referring to here? I have had days when things were busy and have had private people call the building and want to know everything I know about setting up and breeding some animal (invariably one where there is already a lot of information available in both hardcopy and internet forums... ) and I have told them where they can look it up. 




AQUAMAC said:


> Many of these animals are placed on display for visitors to come see and understand the importance of conservation, which is very noteworthy. But many times displaying these animals counteracts breeding these animals. Exhibits are put together so animals can be viewed in a "natural' setting (or disturbed, depending on the conservation story that the zoo wants to portray), grouped with other animals that they can coexist with (again maybe not the best for breeding).


Actually the dynamic that drives whether an animal at a Zoo is bred or not is determined by space. If there is space to hold offspring at that Zoo or another Zoo then it probably will be bred. If there isn't space then it is not likely to be bred... For example, I have some Pipa parva on display with RETF and ETBs at work and I have deliberately only placed female P. parva in the exhibit as I don't have any room for anymore off exhibit... (I have over 30 at this time...) 




AQUAMAC said:


> It would seem that, with the vast array of different animals in a zoological institution, becoming an "expert" on each one is not always possible. This is where smaller hobbyist may become important. But while zoos may "collaborate ideas" with these hobbyists, sometimes the person best equipped for breeding efforts with these animals aren’t the ones with the animals.


If you ask around you would find out for more than a decade I have taken this position, but you don't need to be an "expert", to breed the vast majority of these animals. Most of them are bred via "cookbook" methodology. If you had to become an expert with each and every individual species then there would be many fewer reproductions in either the Institutional or private sector. For those you have to be an "expert" to breed, these are not being bred by most hobbyists either.. for example how many people do you think are successfully breeding Pyxicephalus adspersus? 



AQUAMAC said:


> I feel like the captive husbandry efforts made by the "smaller guy/gal" are often forgotten in the mix, and these people are not often given the opportunity to work with these animals despite the person’s capability to "devote more time to fewer animals" and become specialized with a particular animal that needs captive breeding efforts. I do believe European zoological facilities are much better with involving the hobbyists in captive breeding efforts (Some of these animals are given to specialized hobbyists to work with and breed). I’m not sure why zoological institutions are always looked at as the “most capable” to work with a group of animals needing captive reproduction efforts .


See my comments at the top... The main reason is because the various institutions in the USA look at the private sector with a lot of suspicion and not without some level of justification. For example, when the Zoos collaborated with the Institution to breed tomato frogs, one of the people involved in the project got greedy and sold offspring to the private sector and reported breeding pairs as having died but sold them instead. 
There are other items that cause the suspicion as well.. (such as offers of bribes to keepers to supply eggs or animals to the pet trade....) 

In the USA, seized animals often remain the property of USF&W... would you be so willing to accept animals if you were told, that they and all of thier offspring were the property of USF&W and you had to get thier permission to do anything with any of the animals? 

There has been some change on this front with the formation of the TSA (Turtle Survivial Alliance) and there is hope if people use TWI's ASN program that this can happed with the private sector as well but until the hobby is willing to do paperwork and show transparency it will stay the same in the USA. 

(Also not all European countries recognize the frogs given to hobbyists as legal.... )





AQUAMAC said:


> Not to mention zoos aren’t always the best at paying for animals on time (sorry had to grumble about personal experience).


If you deal with any non-profits for any length of time you will see that this is the norm and not the exception. 

Ed


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## rburnj (Aug 19, 2004)

A lot of researchers will use GnRH as well to induce breeding. But that is pretty much a precursor to LH and FSH.

In terms of zoological institutions, I believe a lot of what has been said is true. I do feel that, through personal experience, that the zoological environment is not always the most collegial. It is difficult to incorporate the hobbyist into the equation when some zoological institutions do not actively disseminate information between eachother. 

Ryan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rburnj said:


> In terms of zoological institutions, I believe a lot of what has been said is true. I do feel that, through personal experience, that the zoological environment is not always the most collegial. It is difficult to incorporate the hobbyist into the equation when some zoological institutions do not actively disseminate information between eachother.
> 
> Ryan


That in my experience is rarely ever the case... I have toured multiple facilities and been shown many different aspects of the care and husbandry of the animals.. I have never had any Zoo or Aquarium refuse a tour, inspection and discussion of thier husbandry as long as I let them know I was coming... (if I just showed up, I suspect I could get a different response...) 

Ed


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Ed,

All due respect you are a head keeper :wink: of course they would have no problem showing you around. I have to agree with Ryan on this one. It seems that there is a hierarchy between zoos, hobbyists, and conservation groups that doesn’t always prove to be helpful. I will not mention any names or elaborate but this is personal experience. This is not the case with you Ed, you have always been helpful and I know you pull for collaboration efforts, but this is not the case with a few instances in other zoological facilities. There are plenty of people that are collaborative, but there are also plenty of people that would rather “gain the fame than share the wealth.”

-Mike


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hence the reason why i know that there are things that go on that is not reported to anyone else from working first hand at the zoo..... believe me there are a lot of things that went on that we were not allowed to tell anyone, nothing illegal, just confidential stuff.


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