# Veradero Numbers in the hobby?



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Anyone know the actual or approximate amount of frogs imported this year - 2009 ?

The number of people (U.S.) who bought them?

I heard a recent estimate of only "20 Hobbyists"....

They are starting to be produced in decent numbers and I'm wondering when the serious price drops are gonna start happening.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

I see them dropping within 6-12months from now little by little...and like you said they are starting to produce in great numbers. Beautiful frogs non the less! 
I dont think I can wait that long to purchase them though!


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## inktomi (Nov 17, 2007)

Add me to that 20. I purchased three for myself from UE, they should be in on their next import.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

inktomi said:


> Add me to that 20. I purchased three for myself from UE, they should be in on their next import.


 
In that case.....you are in addition to the "20". The first importation was spring 2009.

I suspect *way* more than 20 hobbyists are breeding these.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

there is usually a shipment of them every 3-4 months, you can contact Mark and i am sure he will let you know how many people boght them. I have breeding group that i am workign with, just noticed the male carrying a tad the other day.


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> In that case.....you are in addition to the "20". The first importation was spring 2009.
> 
> I suspect *way* more than 20 hobbyists are breeding these.


I have to believe there is a very healthy number of veradero here in the us. 

Besides UE imports, Their are the ones Sean Stewart was bringing in from europe.
It is also my understanding that they where pretty heavily smuggled a few years back and I am sure that some offspring are now showing up after all these legal ones.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ya i have some from the first import, really awesome frogs.

heh, the new european line doesnt really help since they cant be bred with UE line. and i think those would have been smuggled originally right? besides the ones that UE imported to europe.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I have them as well as 3 other people up here in New england....I have 2 and thier are 11 more for a total of 13 in the new england area.... As far as I am aware only one of us has had breeding up here...
Brian


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I know of 5 people in the Mid Atlantic region alone, having dozens of tads...

These guys are gonna be pretty common (and hopefully affordable) by next year....


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Just buy those tads Phil! You know you deserve it!


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

Dont worry Phil, I should be buying some within the next couple of weeks...If my pair starts cranking I'll keep you in mind.


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## GBIII (Mar 20, 2008)

They are great frogs. In my case I'm hoping for the prices to hold up a bit.... they probably won't but if a price drop means they stay available and common in the hobby I'd be all for it. They are definitely one of my favorite frogs in my collection.

BTW Maxb22.. Why wait a few weeks... I'll have a 1.0.1 (I'm 95% sure they are a pair) available at Jason's on Saturday...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I have some old ADG newsletters where Azureus were selling for $250.00 a froglets @ 1990's.....lol.


I am all for free market enterprise ( Capitalism) but I also enjoy the fact that lots of people are working with these frogs and ALL species for that matter, so that more hobbyists can have a reasonable chance to aquire them ($).

Matt- yeah...I need MORE frogs like I need a hole in the back o' my head right now. I'm like Chris - _hundreds_ of frogs.....some have GOT ta go .

I already have Lee helping me modify 6 48" Bakers racks and soon I'm gonna hit up That Fish Place for @ 10 more Zoo meds....

Tadpoles.....yeah.....I could use _more_ tadpoles  LOL.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

so what do you think the price is going to drop to?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i personally think that the price will drop to $100 and hold steady there for a while atleast 2 years, just not sure when the price will really drop though.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

Julio said:


> i personally think that the price will drop to $100 and hold steady there for a while atleast 2 years, just not sure when the price will really drop though.


I agree...these are stunning frogs, I dont see the market value ever dropping below $100.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Yuris haven't really dropped below $100, but I don't see as many people working with them as the veraderos. 

Phil, I remember those days of the $200+ azureus. I never could afford any at the time and desperately wanted them. Heck, it took me up to a few months back to finally get my first of the blue dudes.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

Yes yuris have dropped I noticed that, I wasnt in the hobby that far back but Ive heard stories from Chris Dulaney about the azureus prices back in the day. Even though they are one of the cheaper costing frogs these days they are def the most popular.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

MaxB22 said:


> I agree...these are stunning frogs, I dont see the market value ever dropping below $100.


Haha deja vu. Same conversation as a decade ago but just substitute azureus for veradero. I figure in 3-4 years veradero's will end up in the same price range the nominal and intermedius are now and the tarapota's will be in a year or two.

Chris


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Aurotaenia said:


> Haha deja vu. Same conversation as a decade ago but just substitute azureus for veradero. I figure in 3-4 years veradero's will end up in the same price range the nominal and intermedius are now and the tarapota's will be in a year or two.
> 
> Chris


Not really the case Chris, look how long it really took for the azurues prices to drop to the number they are sold now, yes it will ge there eventually but not within the next 3-4 years.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> I have some old ADG newsletters where Azureus were selling for $250.00 a froglets @ 1990's.....lol.
> 
> 
> I am all for free market enterprise ( Capitalism) but I also enjoy the fact that lots of people are working with these frogs and ALL species for that matter, so that more hobbyists can have a reasonable chance to aquire them ($).
> ...


And on the next page...Retics at $25!
I suggest for the long term well being of the gene pool of these amazing animals, that people that want them go ahead and pony up the cash to get f1's straight from Understory.
That's my plan anyway...when I get some cash flowing in


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

Dancing frogs said:


> And on the next page...Retics at $25!
> I suggest for the long term well being of the gene pool of these amazing animals, that people that want them go ahead and pony up the cash to get f1's straight from Understory.
> That's my plan anyway...when I get some cash flowing in


Or Sean Stewart


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

What are you trying to do, speculate the price down?
You know how this works, when supply is above demand or people get lazy in their marketing the price drops.
It depends on how many people are actually successful getting saleable frogs, not how many have tads in the water.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> What are you trying to do, speculate the price down.


Yeah.....I'm pretty powerfull in the exotic animal industry /frog hobby. I'm using my considerable influence to leverage the market.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Imitators in general can be good, consistant breeders. I've seen prices on the nominants drop better than 50% in the last couple years. Tarapotos have been dropping too. 

Another factor, that will affect the supply side of the equation, is not how many are in the hobby but how many breeding pairs are in the hobby. I know some of the froggers that have picked up Veradero groups, have commented on gender imbalance. 

I'd SWAG that there are close to a dozen or more breeding pairs currently in the US hobby, and they're still coming in. I'd expect supply to go up strongly. The economy is still having an impact on discretionary spending so I would expect demand to peak, because they're new and cool, then flatten, and then drop. I think we're on the flat right now.

Both of these point to the price coming down, as it almost always does, with species that breed well, in the hands of a well informed base of hobbiests.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You can speculate all you want. There are a lot of people w/ azureus and there are a lot complaining of failing tads and eggs that won`t form and spindly leg. There`s the factor of escapee`s, the quality of the first froglets let out as to how well, and quick, they`ll produce, low prolificity as opposed to azureus and others and their popularity as well as new people entering the hobby and trends, etc.. Only time will tell.
My first froglet came out w/ spindly leg. 
Phil, your #9 in reputation on this board, don`t discount yourself.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Julio said:


> Not really the case Chris, look how long it really took for the azurues prices to drop to the number they are sold now, yes it will ge there eventually but not within the next 3-4 years.


The azureus prices held high because they were the pinnacle (the species that one wants to work with and master the husbandry of) of dart frog keeping back in the day to a majority of froggers. There wasn't the availability or the established variety of species like there is today. Now people can have an entire room sized collection based on one species or group of frogs. The hobby has enough diversity that there are many 'pinnacle' frogs available, mine (retics/duellmani) may not even be of interest to more than 20% of the dart keeping population. Everyone (well almost everyone, because I didn't) wanted azureus and there was a huge demand for them. That demand has been diluted.

Also, look back in the Frognet archives, there were conversations about people refusing to sell azureus for less than $100 because they didn't want the unwashed masses (my term) to turn it into a throw away frog because of how limited the bloodlines were. 



pl259 said:


> Imitators in general can be good, consistant breeders. I've seen prices on the nominants drop better than 50% in the last couple years. Tarapotos have been dropping too.
> 
> Another factor, that will affect the supply side of the equation, is not how many are in the hobby but how many breeding pairs are in the hobby.
> 
> Both of these point to the price coming down, as it almost always does, with species that breed well, in the hands of a well informed base of hobbiests.


This was the point I was trying to make, they are imitator, absolutely gorgeous imitator, but imitator none the less. Their behavior and breeding for me is just like my other imitator. While they may not be $65-75 in 3-4 years barring some sort of tragedy, they will be cracking the mythical $100 barrier.

Best


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Brian Ferriera said:


> I have them as well as 3 other people up here in New england....I have 2 and thier are 11 more for a total of 13 in the new england area.... As far as I am aware only one of us has had breeding up here...
> Brian


I recently acquired two UE Veradero F1 offspring. (I'm looking to buy a couple more and possibly trade for genetic diversity within the UE line in the not so distant future.)

As far as prices are concerned, I'm already seeing Veradero froglets going for 100-150usd from hobbyists. I agree that it will be a long time coming before there is a consistent drop to the $100 mark or lower though.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Marinarawr said:


> I'm already seeing Veradero froglets going for 100-150usd from hobbyists. I agree that it will be a long time coming before there is a consistent drop to the $100 mark or lower though.


 
If you are seeing Veradero froglets go for $100.00 USD - then there is _already_ a price drop.....


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## GBIII (Mar 20, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> If you are seeing Veradero froglets go for $100.00 USD - then there is _already_ a price drop.....


I think I've seen them once for 100 and I believe they were probably f2's from UE as the imported ones would be f1's if I'm correct. They sold in what seems like 15 minutes which should tell them they were too low. Then again I could be wrong.

George


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Marinarawr said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that it will be a long time coming before there is a *consistent* drop to the $100 mark or lower though.
> ...


Key word being consistent . 



GBIII said:


> I think I've seen them once for 100 and I believe they were probably f2's from UE as the imported ones would be f1's if I'm correct. They sold in what seems like 15 minutes which should tell them they were too low. Then again I could be wrong.
> 
> George


The one time that I saw them that low the poster put the add up at about 1am EST and they sold at 9am EST. I find it miraculous that they were up for that long.


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## dartsami (Oct 30, 2006)

Well,

If anyone wants some, Ive got 15 ready to go. Captive bred in the USA!

Anyone else?

My thoughts:

If you like them, buy em. 


Randy


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## GBIII (Mar 20, 2008)

dartsami said:


> Well,
> 
> If anyone wants some, Ive got 15 ready to go. Captive bred in the USA!
> 
> ...


Hey Randy... quit bragging..lol
I've just got tads...

George


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## dartsami (Oct 30, 2006)

GBIII said:


> Hey Randy... quit bragging..lol
> I've just got tads...
> 
> George



I just got lucky, thats all. Good luck with your tads George.

I was just thinking about when I bought my veradero. I wasnt thinking about future forecasts on pricing. I didnt have any resevations on the price or try to haggle down for a quantity discount. I didnt care that they might cost less in a year. I just wanted to work with them. Thats the point. Thats why I do what Ive been doing for the last 13+ years. If you want them, get them. To me its not about how many babies I can get and how much money Im gonna make. If thats the concern, I hope they drop to $50 ea so everyone can afford them, and I will still breed them.


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## BBoyette (Mar 9, 2009)

Randy yours look good, great size to them also.


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## GBIII (Mar 20, 2008)

dartsami said:


> I was just thinking about when I bought my veradero. I wasnt thinking about future forecasts on pricing. I didnt have any resevations on the price or try to haggle down for a quantity discount. I didnt care that they might cost less in a year. I just wanted to work with them. Thats the point. Thats why I do what Ive been doing for the last 13+ years. If you want them, get them. To me its not about how many babies I can get and how much money Im gonna make. If thats the concern, I hope they drop to $50 ea so everyone can afford them, and I will still breed them.


Very well stated. I agree completely! 

George


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

dartsami said:


> I just got lucky, thats all. Good luck with your tads George.
> 
> I was just thinking about when I bought my veradero. I wasnt thinking about future forecasts on pricing. I didnt have any resevations on the price or try to haggle down for a quantity discount. I didnt care that they might cost less in a year. I just wanted to work with them. Thats the point. Thats why I do what Ive been doing for the last 13+ years. If you want them, get them. To me its not about how many babies I can get and how much money Im gonna make. If thats the concern, I hope they drop to $50 ea so everyone can afford them, and I will still breed them.


What boy/girl ratio did you start out with?


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## dartsami (Oct 30, 2006)

pl259 said:


> What boy/girl ratio did you start out with?


I ended up with 2.2. When I first got them I split them into two tanks using best guess as pairs. It took me a while to pair them off, by switching them up every few weeks. two were a little younger that the other two.


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## dartsami (Oct 30, 2006)

MaxB22 said:


> Randy yours look good, great size to them also.


Thanks Brandon-

Their morphing out and feeding directly on melanogaster.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

dartsami said:


> Thanks Brandon-
> 
> Their morphing out and feeding directly on melanogaster.


One of the keys to a thriving sustainable morph, simple husbandry. I agree with what Randy said, get them if you like them however the reality of this economy has eliminated much of everyone's disposable income and price points will determine access to many recently introduced species or morphs of frogs. LL Fants were a good example of this, introduced @ $295, after I got my 25th or 30th froglet out of the water I was donating them to a couple of institutions, that was after selling the first 20 or so from $150 to $125.
The Veradero's were initially offered at a very reasonable $175, their nature (very bold and striking) should keep them at a premium ($100 or more) for some time. 
For me it will be interesting to see how this scenario plays out in regards to Benedicta, will UE have 30 or 40 to send the US initially (aside form Aaron's 4 of course), I am anxious to hear what the starting price for those beauties will be.


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## chivers (Jun 8, 2009)

ver tads!


































Enjoy!


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

I'm sure there are a lot of threads about this but I'll ask anyway...

What are you keeping them in to get them to breed so well??

~JP~


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## chivers (Jun 8, 2009)

They are in an exo terra tank. I try to keep the temperature around 72 degrees F. 
Good luck!


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Is that a good temp for most imitators? I keep my house at 75 degrees year round. Maybe a little cooler in the winter months. Is that too warm? The only thumbs I ever messed w/ were pumilio years ago and wasn't really that successful w/ them... Possibly it was because my temps were too high???

JP


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

GREAT pics by the way!! Those are some gorgeous animals!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

snooknfrogs said:


> Is that a good temp for most imitators? I keep my house at 75 degrees year round. Maybe a little cooler in the winter months. Is that too warm? The only thumbs I ever messed w/ were pumilio years ago and wasn't really that successful w/ them... Possibly it was because my temps were too high???
> 
> JP


not to get too off topic, but pumilio are a warm hardy species. they tolerate into the low 80s and mine breed, regardless of temps (of course between 67 and 82)

james


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

What temps do you keep your imitators at?


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