# Dendrobates pumilio: experiences and keeping tips



## UmbraSprite

Well a recent discussion over some of rare forms and difficulties keeping/breeding this species has brought to light that maybe the knowldge that the community has gained working with this species should be shared. Hopefully we can use this thread as a place for those thinking of trying out this species to go in having a better understanding of the specific needs and challenges of keeping them.

If you have kept or are keeping pums please list your experience, do's, don't, things gleaned from your experience, viv setups, breeding successes, types of plants used etc etc here.

Of particular interest are husbandry differences in animals from different locals.


A good way to get started would be to read through the excellent overview Kyle has posted in the Care Sheets section which can be found here:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23768

As for me...I have kept blue jeans and bastimentos. 

They typically spend their time on top or along the vertical walls I have built into the vivs. Usually if I see an animal on the bottom too regularly it has turned out to be a male losing a territorial dispute. Females have been more reclusive spending most of their time in broms or well hidden in the plant growth on the vertical wall. In the evening all the animals typically find a brom to hunker down in for the night.

I typically feel melanogaster and regularly seed with springtails. I have been told to monitor the isopods carefully as too many in a smaller viv can be stressful to the frogs...although I have yet to be able to get that type of population going in my vivs.

I have had the most success with these frogs in tanks which are heavily planted with epiphytes and mosses/ferns. I always use drip walls or some variant of drip walls usually covered in riccia and other mosses. I have used large and small vivs but it is clear pums prefer a nice vertical area to traverse. Typically these setups aren't designed for optimum viewing but for the frogs to feel as comfortable as possible with plenty of privacy. 

I have kept juneniles in smaller 5-10 gallon tanks but again heavy on leaf litter and plants. I feed springtails and slowly begin to add FF's.

Have to run...but hopefully that gets the ball rolling.

Chris


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## sbreland

I want to chime in on this and share some things, but unfortunately right now I am about to leave. I will hit this tomorrow eventhough I am far from an expert I think I have some things to add and or contradict to Chris's comments. One thing I will say now though...LEAF LITTER!!


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## snakevenom

I started keeping pums about 2 months ago and they are great. I have 0.2.0 rios and 2.0.0 man creeks. (just my luck!) I have noticed that the higher bromeliads on the back wall get the most use and they will definitely utilize a background for climbing. I learned quickly to watch them closely when you first put your frogs in together because what you thought was 1.1 could be 2.0 and you have some wrestling frogs. Lastly, when you get some pums you get addicted. :lol: Chris


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## sbreland

Ok, so here are some things I have learned that aren't in the care sheets. First off, to expand on my leaf litter comment above, I thin kit is very necessary in Pumilio vivs. It's serves as a place for the microfauna of the tank to grow and breed and is like a buffet table for pumilio and their froglets. I use no less than 4 or 5 different types of springtails and/or isopods when I seed the viv and after several months I can flip over some of the leaf litter and find it just teeming with bugs. The young will disappear down into this leaf litter for long periods of time and come out fat and happy and much healthier to boot. Most pum froglets won't take FFs immediately or even for awhile, so springs and other isopods are essential. The leaf litter also serves as a hiding place as the froglets and adults will dash under the leaf litter when they feel threatened, therefore they feel like they have a place to dart to which makes them more comfortable and to a degree more visible. I have had tanks with leaf litter and without and the tanks without the pums stayed high in the tank and seldom went to the ground... with leaf litter they spend a vast majority of their time on the floor rummaging around looking for food and what not. Leaf litter is not as "pretty" as a nice moss lawn, but it's closer to natural and more appreciated by the animals than a nice bed of moss.

Second thing I have learned about breeding pums is the use of Calcium gluconate. It has been theorized that pumilio froglets have a high rate of mortality up to and around 6 months due to dietary insufficiencies as a result of poor variety in their diet which leads to hypocalcemia (low calcium). Calcium gluconate dropped on a froglets back is supposed to help supplement the calcium need and help get them "over the hump". I don't know if there has been any true scientific studies as to the possible benefits of it, but I can say that mine and other peoples experiences that have used the methods have been very promising. 

Another idea that I have learned about is air circulation. I think this would be the same for all frogs, but I have heard from a couple of very reliable breeders that having a viv that is sealed tight with high humidity is a recipe for disaster in the long run. Apparently the thought is that without the air circulation the air and water gets stagnant and serves as a breeding ground for all kinds of bacteria which in turn put the frogs at risk. On top of that, if you think about the tropical rain forests (especially any that are remotely close to the ocean), most have some sort of breeze or air movement at differnet times during the day. Rather than using a fan forcing in outside air or expelling and replacing viv air, I have been trying to perfect a recirculating air system that moves the air inside the viv without exchanging with air on the outside. Basically, I keep the humid air inside the viv but move it around so it doesn't get stagnant and gets an exchange when the tank is opened for feedings and such. Just another one of those little things... 
I'll have to expand on this some more but I think this is long enough to start...


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## a Vertigo Guy

In reference to the stagnant air (which I never considered before), what difference would plants that filter out air like pothos make?


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## Jungle_John

air circulation... i got 2 tanks that have holes all in the lid for air flow. i figure it gets a good bit and the glasss stay unfogged. however it is a plexy glass so its warrping and i just order glass tops. these glass tops will be sealed off. maby a few holes in the back plastic part but thats all. what do you recomend for air flow here? how would you fix this? i was wondering about this for the last few days but i figure every one else uses glass tops so it be no problem but now im worried agin. i do have running water... you think that will help?


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## dragonfrog

With most glass tops that you buy for a tank, it comes with a plastic back piece that is meant for you to cut holes in for the tubing and filter system that you would be using in a fish tank. I take this piece of plastic and cut a hole in a corner that is about 1" x 1" and glue on a piece of mesquito netting over this hole. Then I place a very small computer fan over this netted hole and this gives the viv a very small current of air. I never have a problem with lowering the humidity. It stays at 90% or above. There has been a lot of discussion on this here so if you do a search you should come up with some more information.


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## bbrock

I've been breeding blue jeans since 2000 and have some pretty strong opinions about what will guarantee success (and no, I don't have any available unless you have some Nicaraguan blue jeans to trade). Sbreland gave a pretty good overview and my experience pretty much agrees with a few exceptions and additions.

I agree that the important components are:

leaf litter
leaf litter
leaf litter
calcium
air circulation
leaf litter (you get the idea)

To this I will add space - lots of it, and moisture. But I have a very different opinion about how to deal with the calcium issue which I'll get to in a bit.

First, it is important remember that pumilio have a large natural range and come from some fairly diverse habitats. So treating all pumilio the same is a mistake. 

Leaf Litter - this has been covered and I won't repeat. It is very important for the reasons already given. It should cover at least 3/4 of the vivarium bottom and should be at least 2 leaves thick in many places.

Calcium - another very important one but I don't like the trend toward using calcium gluconate as a solution. I think this is a stop gap that treats a symptom and not a cause. Instead, I use UVB light and mineral soil and I have never had to treat a froglet with calcium gluconate. We all know about UVB. But mineral soil (I use clay) that contains calcium (it can be supplemented with a little lime) also provides a source of calcium either by being ingested directly when the frogs feed on soil fauna, or transferred to the fauna and then to the frog. It is possible even that it is directly absorbed through the sking. All I know is that frogs in the wild are exposed to UVB radiation and they have access to calcium in the soil and they don't do calcium gluconate soaks.

Air Circulation - I agree that this is important for at least two reasons. It keeps the air from becoming stagnant which is good for disease control, and it sets up moisture and temperature gradients which allow the frogs to choose their prefered microclimate at any given time. I've moved to almost completely sealed tanks with a strong aire recirculating current that recycles the air. The current is strong enough to move the leaves on the plants a little and it is pretty obvious that it provides a healthier environment. I think a good indicator for air circulation is to grow orchids in the viv. If you can successfully grow a variety of orchids, then your air movement is sufficient.

Space - I think this is the one that people take a gamble on. My successful blue jeans setup provides 50 gallons of space per adult frog (100 gallons for one pair). I know people have bred pumilio, including blue jeans, in much smaller vivs. Obviously it is possible. But as the size of the viv goes up, I think the changes for success also increase. Large vivs allow the frogs to get away from each other which not only reduces stress, but I think also stimulates breeding activity. The space also provides a wider range of temperature and moisture gradients which lets the frogs choose what they like. And finally, the space reduces predation pressure soil fauna so that when froglets emerge, they always find an abundance of small prey waiting for them. This, in turn, allows the froglets to be left in the breeding viv which I've found to be much more successful than pulling them out. I only remove froglets when they are becoming difficult to tell apart from the adults.

Moisture - this is where the differences in morphs can come into play. Blue jeans come from very wet places and therefore don't have to be very deligent about keeping eggs wet in the wild. So I mist mine 5 times a day with an automatic mister. The mister uses fresh RO water which flushes the leaf axils and is drained into a container where it is used to water plants. Other morphs may prefer dryer conditions. It is important to note though that my viv is not sopping wet. The air movement allows many parts of the viv to dry out quickly while other parts stay constantly damp.

As far as behavior, my observations are that the frogs tend to use the whole viv. I have one female who spends most of her time in the leaf litter. I've also noticed that most of the blue jeans will spend time foraging in leaf litter when things are really quiet, but they will climb up into the vegetation when disturbed. The male is pretty arboreal as have been a couple of the females. But they still come to the ground to forage quite frequently. I just see a lot of individuality in their behaviors.

So those are a few suggestions. Take them for what they are worth.


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## bbrock

> what do you recomend for air flow here? how would you fix this? i was wondering about this for the last few days but i figure every one else uses glass tops so it be no problem but now im worried agin. i do have running water... you think that will help?


A very simple way to add air circulation is to mount a fan inside a PVC fitting and cover the ends with screen. then just drop the whole thing inside the viv and point it such that to blows across the viv. You can disguise the fan by rolling the pvc fitting in silicone and then coco fiber or soil, or by glueing cork on the outside. But if you use a reducer fitting, make sure you mount a fan in the small diameter portion or you may get noise from cavitation.

And regarding the earlier question about the filtering effects of plants, that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about air movement, not air purity.


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## Tripod

Brent,

Have you ever experimented with actual air exchange?

I can't help but think that providing fresh, pre-humidified air into a viv. would be more beneficial than just circulating the air inside. It would seem to better simulate a breeze passing through which, in the wild, would actually act as an air mover AND exchanger. It is only a hypothesis, though, and it would be interesting to hear from anyone that has tried it.

I plan on trying this on an upcoming viv. I will use a small aquarium air pump connected through a "water bubbler" for humidification (think hookah) and routed to three or four, 1/8" drippers spaced along the lower background. The air will move from the lower back of the viv., through the center, and up and out of the ventilation screen at the top front. The air pump will be on a timer to simulate sporadic breezes throughout the day.

Steven


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## bbrock

Tripod said:


> Have you ever experimented with actual air exchange?


I have, and the ability to do this depends on your local climate and the amount of air you are moving. In my pumilio viv, I use a 6 inch fan to recirculate air. I don't remember how many cfm it moves but it is quite a bit. Couple that with my local climate where the room humidity is 30% on a good day and down in the teens on many, and you see that trying to humidify that amount of air is not trivial. That said, my long term plans are to do just that. In my case I plan to make a modified swamp cooler to serve multiple vivs and then exhaust the air so that I can use one blower to move air through all tanks but still keep each tank isolated from each other (no tank to tank air exchange). But without a humidifyer on the incoming air, my results with drawing in much outside air have been bad. Very rapid and extreme drops in humidity that send the frogs into hiding.

However, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that drawing in fresh air is always better quality. Remember that plants and microbes respire and photosynthesize the atmosphere and tend to filter it. The air quality in many areas is pretty poor. And even in areas with good air quality, the quality inside our homes can still be poor due to outgassing of building materials etc. So a healthy respiring/photosynthesizing vivarium can be the equivalent of running the air through a purifyer and result in better air quality inside the vivarium than outside. But I'm also not suggesting that vivaria be hermetically sealed either. In my pumilio tank, I have eliminated all of the vents in favor of the recirulating system but there is still air exchange with the outside through the by-pass sliding doors. If I didn't have those doors, I would add small vents high and low on the viv for some air exchange. 

But you can actually smell the difference in air quality when recirculating air movement is added. The viv does not have that damp, musky smell (which granted smells good) but rather, has the fresh smell of a forest after a rain. It is a much sweeter and lighter smell than a typical vivarium.


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## sbreland

I can't echo enough all that Brent has added. In a roundabout sort of way his BJ viv and it's ventilation system is where I came up with my system and is loosely based on it. My big difference is that it is more low profile (for those that have seen Brent's) and works great on smaller vivs. One thing that Brent hit on that I forgot to mention is that the recirculating air creates microclimates in the viv and the importance if these cannot be stressed enough. 
I agree with Brent that space is definitely another big factor and it cannot be stressed enough how in adequate a 10vert is. Not all of us are able to keep a 100 gallon viv, but the bigger the better. A big fault of this hobby is the inability to provide a natural habitat due to lack of room, but the more space you provide and the more natural you make it the better it is. The answer to the question "How many frogs can I put in a 10 gallon?" should be none.
Like Brent said, leaf litter is probably the single most important and most overlooked element in vivs. Sure, for the most part it doesn't look that great but it is natural and is what the animals need. 
On the calcium... I am itching to try the whole enriched soil concept and can't wait til Matt Mirabello realeases his secret recipe! Until then I need to do a better job of providing "natural" calcium but I do think that without the options that Brent mentioned calcium gluconate helps to curb the defecit. It's one of those things where you do your best to provide what you can (natural soil, light, fauna) and make up with "supplements" in the areas that you can't provide for any reason. There are literally 100s of tips and tactics that work and help, but one quote I saw on here that is so very true goes something like... "Frogging is 10% what you know and 90% what you try"... in otherwords, anyone can tell you how to be a good frogger, but experiencing it and succeeding or failing for yourself is the best way to learn and grow.


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## bbrock

sbreland said:


> On the calcium... I am itching to try the whole enriched soil concept and can't wait til Matt Mirabello realeases his secret recipe! Until then I need to do a better job of providing "natural" calcium but I do think that without the options that Brent mentioned calcium gluconate helps to curb the defecit. It's one of those things where you do your best to provide what you can (natural soil, light, fauna) and make up with "supplements" in the areas that you can't provide for any reason.


I hope my comments about calcium gluconate didn't come off too harsh. Obviously it is better to treat froglets with Ca gluc. and have them live, than to watch them die. I only posted that in the hopes that more people will include UVB and mineral soil in their setups to see if those don't provide more permanent solutions to the problem. I know in my case, I'm getting about 90% survival of the froglets without treatment.

As for soil. My favorite thus far has been to use Redart potter's clay mixed with some mycorhizae rich soil. The part I haven't figured out yet is getting it to form the aggregates that create a sandy texture but I'm working on it. It looks just like (actually is) tropical soil but without the texture.


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## gary1218

GREAT information here. I got my first pums a month or so ago so I'm finding this all very helpful. Particulary the info about just recirculating the air in the viv rather than bringing in outside air. And it also sounds like you're using a good size fan to really move the air around.

How about some info on the broms/plants you're using in the vivs. Are you using large broms with deep axils for the pums to raise the tads in?


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## sbreland

gary1218 said:


> How about some info on the broms/plants you're using in the vivs. Are you using large broms with deep axils for the pums to raise the tads in?


Maybe I have crazy frogs, but mine use the leaf cups of broms more than the axils. I know many people have had success with axil deposits, but for whatever reason my frogs like the cups, so I am trying to use more broms with large leaf cups and axils to give them more choices... that's another good rule... give em plenty of choices.


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## Steve

I have a trio of Mancreeks, they produce many eggs and have tadpoles in brom Axils, i am just waiting for the first ones to start morphing out so i have only limited experience.

They reside in a 52Gal hex, it has a large 'fallen log' across and down the middle which is covered in taiwan moss. Leaf littler is more than abundant and i have broms, ferns and creeping fig. The effect gives a quite barren ground, just litter and wood with the greenery being several inches to several feet off the bottom of the substrate.

I mist three times a day for one minute and fog three times a day for 12 mins each time. 

Fitted in the tank hood are two 3.5 inch computer fans, below the lights. They only run at 7 volts and create a gentle breeze, enough to slightly move a fern leaf about half way down the viv. They do not blow directly into the viv, merely above the mesh vent area (about 2 inches above). One blows up, the other down. I found this created a random clash of air which sometimes creates air 'in phase' and is stronger, at other times 'out of phase' and is weaker creating a constant change in wind velocity.

The viv has dark areas, bright areas, dry areas and damp areas with natural pools of water forming in depressions i made in the back ground.

I find my pum's are very bold, will court, fertilize and transport in the open. They always come down to the floor of the viv to feed (always at different times, sometimes with a few days gap). When the male calls, both females will approach, and seem to take it in turns with the male, no aggression. They use all areas of the viv during different times, i guess depending on how they feel. 

I really think, like Brent that as much space as possible for these frogs is vital. I have just seen a 100 gallon cube in a LFS that i would love to turn into a pum tank for another trio, but currently don't have the time or funds to build it exactly how i would want it.

I hope this helps or enlightens someone.

Regards

Steve


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## bbrock

gary1218 said:


> How about some info on the broms/plants you're using in the vivs. Are you using large broms with deep axils for the pums to raise the tads in?


There is a natural tendency to want to provide large broms to give the tads plenty of room but actually, you want small axils. There is actually a bit of data on the web from a student project about this. I've posted the link before and it is a pain to find so maybe a dig in the archives. One brom I highly recommend for pumilio vivs is Billbergia. The small, but deep, tubular cups seem to be a favorite. Other good ones are your basic small Neoregelias like 'Fireball' and N. ampulaceae. In the wild they often deposit in Diefenbachia and Heliconia axils but even our large vivs aren't big enough to accomodate those. As a rule of thumb (actually a rule of pinky) an adult pinky up to the first knuckle is about the size of a good pumilio deposition site - at least in my limited experience. But perhaps more important than size, is to provide lots of choices - high, low, warm, cool, etc. so the frogs can choose the right ones.


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## Corpus Callosum

For those that are constantly recirculating the air in their vivs, are you using standard computer fans? Will they hold up to humidity just fine on the long run or are there any precautions to take as well as humidity resistant models of fans?


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## KeroKero

Again... leaf litter. Most of the points have been made about the benefits already... I remember how I used to flip a lid on this subject, so it's cool to see so many other keepers doing it now 

tinctoritus - air flow, or air movement in the tank is more of the issue than air borne toxins that something like pothos would take care of. Stagnent air isn't toxic air, it's just air that isn't moving. Pothos won't make air move... but well places vents and/or fans will. 

You can make screen sections by making a screen frame out of window repair kits. You can use no see'm mesh instead of the regular fiberglass screening. I don't recomend metal screening because a) it causes abrasions in herps, b) metal + misting = rust, and c) it's much more of a pain to work with than the fiberglass. Or you can be lazy like me, use screen lids, and lay either heavy plastic or plexi over part of the screen lid to hold in moisture. 

I keep most of my pumilio much drier than most people! Especially bastis! Some like it moist, some need much larger tanks, some are best in pairs, others are ok in groups.

Running water is not only not needed, but I recomend against it in most cases. A drip wall, ok. A waterfall? No... you're not only sacrificing space better used by leaf litter, you run a higher risk of losing froglets to drowning in current. Still water is one thing, water with a current is another...

**Flushing of water sources... in Brent's tanks, he likely may have enough water flow, but the average set up on a misting system that I've seen I don't honestly think does even a half way job on flushing water out of broms and the like. Even with a misting system, I do this by hand with "heavy" mist rather than fine, so I can "wash" the tanks I keep drier. Works well for bastis, anthonyi, tricolor, and mantellas, all of which I dry out at least part of the year.

Bigger tanks are better... Brent gave the reasons in his earlier talks about space. I also leave froglets in vivs, and especially with Brent's mineral soil idea, you would need to keep them in to take advantage of the natrual microfauna in the tank, and also to provide the calcium needed. Larger tanks can also have larger microfauna populations and support not only the adults, but the froglets better. The smaller the tank, the less frogs the microfauna can support without crashing. In tanks with a 10x20" footprint, and adult pair can easily crash the microfauna themselves, and there is no way it can support froglets without heavy supplimentation... which means the critters haven't been gut loaded with the stuff in the tank, in which you defeat the purpose of mineral soils anyways...

Variety in foods too... a lot of people seem to forget about variation in diet with all the other stuff they've got going on! It's not just about FFs and springtails... it's amazing what those little frogs will chomp down on... I made a regular effort to give pumilio other foods like FF larvae, termites, and aphids (which were actually what I raised my first froglets on since I didn't have springtails at the time!). Now, of course, I don't have pumilio, but have a ton of different feeder bugs... lol... I could give them a different feeder bug for every day of the week!


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## Tripod

This thread has been one of the most informative I have come across on DB regarding enclosure design and just so happened to appear when I was in the pre-design phase of three new vivs. to house some recently acquired pums.

The vivs. are now complete and I wanted to share them with everyone and hopefully provide a good example of the major topics addressed within this thread. The main themes covered previously were space (volume), floor area to provide room for lots of leaf litter, and air circulation. I have hopefully put together a viv. design that offers a good combination of the above and still fits within the space and display limitations that most of us have.

My vivs. are constructed from AGA 25H tanks oriented vertically. A 25H differs from a 20H in only one dimension, height - it is 4 inches taller. When up-ended, it has the same front opening height and width as a 20H and therefore the same materials can be used to fabricate the door, vent, etc. For these doors I borrowed Gary's (gary1218) polycarbonate idea from this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28387&highlight=polycarbonate

It worked out very well.

The overall design idea of the tanks was to leave the bottom area open (to allow for leaf litter) while constructing multiple tiers of horizontal space throughout the rest of the volume. The idea was to create multiple temperature and humidity zones and various niches to allow the frogs plenty of options and choices. Each tank was planted with 6 broms (thanks Antone!) varying in size throughout the different levels along with several other types of flora. Again, the idea was to allow plenty of choice for the frogs. The bottom of each vivs. has 2 or 3 large leaf plants that don't interfere with the leaf litter which is composed of copious amounts of oak and magnolia leaves.

Also incorporated into the tank design is an air circulation system. It uses PVC pipe and connections to route the exhaust of a 50mm computer fan from one upper corner of the tank, below the substrate, and out three ports positioned along the bottom of the "viewing" side of the viv. The idea is to move the air and use it to keep the condensation down. Although the size of the fan doesn't compare to those previously suggested, and no plants are swaying in the breeze, the system does provide for some air circulation from one viv. zone to another.

One of the major concerns I had with building tanks larger that 20g was the inherent problem of displaying them on a standard 48" x 18" rack. It turns out that you can get three of these vivs. positioned on one shelf if you orient them at almost a 45 degree angle to the front and place them side by side. The front and back of each tank hangs over the shelf edge by a few inches, and the back corner of the end tank has to fit between the two shelf support poles... but what you end up with is three 25g vertical tanks on one shelf, easy front access, and a view that includes the front door and half of the adjacent side - perfect for my constraints.

Below are some pictures of the new vivariums. They have been planted and seeded with springs and isopods a little over a month ago. The first set of residents moved in tonight...and immediately began acting as if on honeymoon. Enjoy.

All three end to end:









All three side by side at angle (this is how they will fit on one shelf):









A couple of Viv1 from the side and corner:


















The second viv:


















The third:


















The honeymooners:









There are more pictures in my gallery. Thanks for looking.

Steven


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## UmbraSprite

You did a VERY nice job on those. Don't hesistate to lay on the leaf litter even heavier but to be honest...you nailed it.

Good luck!


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## spydrmn12285

^^I noticed that the first and third vivs have a sort of pvc pipe at the site with some sort of opening. Is this used somewhat for the ventiliation, or just a place to for the frogs to get away from human view?


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## KeroKero

Tripod said:


> Also incorporated into the tank design is an air circulation system. It uses PVC pipe and connections to route the exhaust of a 50mm computer fan from one upper corner of the tank, below the substrate, and out three ports positioned along the bottom of the "viewing" side of the viv. The idea is to move the air and use it to keep the condensation down. Although the size of the fan doesn't compare to those previously suggested, and no plants are swaying in the breeze, the system does provide for some air circulation from one viv. zone to another.


The PVC pipes are part of the above mentioned air circulation system if I understood correctly.


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## Tripod

^^ Yes, Corey is correct. The pipe is for the air circulation system. The second viv doesn't have one installed yet. I plan on taking pictures and detailing the construction of that one so it can be shared here.

I considered covering the exposed pipe with silicon and coco coir, but I figured it would have still looked like a pipe...covered in dirt.

Steven


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## spydrmn12285

Ah, missed that part of the thread. :lol: But I wonder why it's only in two vivs rather than all three? Maybe it's just the angle of the picture..


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## UmbraSprite

Another idea is to get one of those bark tubes that will cover it....and fill in the gaps with foam/silicone or moss. That way you could even add a few more epiphytes onto the bark.

Chris


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## KeroKero

Cuz he hasn't put it in the second one yet!

You could also use some epiweb to cover the tubes to make them a growing surface for epiphytes... make a moss covered tube  The stuff is pretty flexible and easy to work with.


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## Tripod

Yea, I tossed around several ideas for covering it, but just couldn't ever settle on one that allowed for easy installation and take down (if and when it needs servicing) and fit in with the rest of the design. It's a bit of a sore thumb, but not as bad as you may think. When the tanks are arranged in the angled, side-by-side fashion the interior layout tends to lead your eyes away from that area. It's not too bad.


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## KeroKero

Plus I don't know how much of a good idea it would be to add grow space that close to the door... I just imagine baby froglets taking flying leaps out the door when you disturb it! Plus you'd have to start fighting a jungle to get in and do stuff in the tank.... and of *course* that would be where you'd put the only mildly spiny bromeliad in the tank... not that I've done something like that mind you. I've just heard stories :roll:


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## Tripod

You're probably right. Murphy's law would find a way to apply itself. I think I'll stick with the current design until something better comes along...and then I'll probably be too lazy to go back and change. :roll:


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## bbrock

Those vivs look nice. One thing that seems to work well for my blue jeans is that there is a lot of visual obstruction between the epiphyte layer and the ground. In other words, frogs up in the trees can't easily see those on the ground and vice versa. Since froglets tend to spend a lot of time in the leaf litter, this helps relieve stress I think. So you might consider adding some leafy plants like small philo. or ferns to the epiphyte logs. This seems to work for my blue jeans anyway. I don't know if the heavily planted look suits other populations as well.

I don't think the circulation pipes look bad. Of course one easy trick if you do want to hid them is to roll them in silicone and then peat moss or coco fiber. Then you can still replace them easily but they blend in a bit. I'll bet as the vivs grow in, you won't notice them anyway though.


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## tyler

This thread is definitely one of the most informative on DB - it needs to be a sticky.


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## Exoticdarts

I 100% agree with you Tyler.


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## defaced

And a link to it placed in the Pum caresheet.


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## jmcc000

great thread. 
I have a question. I have had a few pumilio froglets. The problem is that i have only seen the froglets, never the parents transporting. My bri bri and MCs have finally let me watch them transporting tads. Now my daughter is asking how long till i have froglets. So help me out, how long from transport to froglet?


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## imitator83

You know, I love the ideas of the ventilation PVC tube, but I really hate the idea of disrupting my attempts at making a naturalistic vivarium by putting a big plastic tube in it. Has anybody ever tried this idea outside of the tank? Maybe by drilling two adequately sized holes in either the top or the sides of the tank and using PVC piping to connect the two holes. I would think it would look a bit like a handle on the tank. I figure the best ventilation would be aquired by using two fans, one blowing into the tube, and one blowing out. It is more or less a modified technique of the 2 fans technique discussed by Dragonfrog, but in a contained system. Has anyone done this? For those a tad more mechanically advanced than I am, as well as those who have actually done the whole fan thing (I admit, I have not, but have been thinking about adding fans to my tanks for a while), would this work? Thanks,
Scott


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## pigface

Jason , Around about 2 to 2 1/2 months give or take a week . It might depend on the morph too .


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## jmcc000

Cool Mark thanks. She wants to set up a calander like we did when our third child was born.


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## Corpus Callosum

Scott, I set up mine externally using PVC and a circuit box that I fitted with a computer fan:





































I believe Mark and Lee have done theirs externally with a much cleaner and less bulky approach.


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## imitator83

Sweet!!! Thanks for the pics, I'm glad I don't have to try to design a new concept like that. My dad is an engineer, but I am not for good reasons (measure once...twice...dohhhh :wink: ). Thanks again,
Scott


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## imitator83

Quick question, CC, I see three entry points into the tank in your picture. Does the middle one have a ventilation purpose, or is it for bracing the rest of the unit?

BTW, this is a great thread, I am learning a lot, and since I am finally getting back into pumilios, I would like to design the best possible environments for them and actually have a chance to breed them this time. Thanks everyone for speading the info,
Scott


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## Corpus Callosum

My middle bulkhead is where my ultrasonic humidifier is connected, but I'm not going to bother in future tanks as misting alone took care of my needs and the humidifier was unnecessary (other than the cool fog effect).


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## MartyA

Hi Brent;


> I use UVB light and mineral soil and I have never had to treat a froglet with calcium gluconate. We all know about UVB. But mineral soil (I use clay) that contains calcium (it can be supplemented with a little lime) also provides a source of calcium either by being ingested directly when the frogs feed on soil fauna, or transferred to the fauna and then to the frog


 I was wondering about this. Are you using a UVB penetrable lid (not normal glass?). Do you still suppliment with Vit D (/D3)? or does your terrarium soil fauna contain enough of that for the frogs? Are you relying on the UVB from your bulb for all your Vit D3?



> source of calcium either by being ingested directly when the frogs feed on soil fauna, or transferred to the fauna and then to the frog


 In the long run which do you think would be the greatest contributor to calcium for our frogs? I have been toying around with screened compost heaps within my tanks and adding ground up egg shells as a source of CaCO3. I also do this with my earthworm composts for my caudates to increase the calcium content and neutralize the medium. In my compost setup im focused mostly on the calcium content of the insects (although I suppose some may be injested when they pick at the compost).


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## kyle1745

Thats a great idea with the box and I may have to try that. Moves air but limits the amount of outside air. Thanks for sharing Mike, I will have to try this on my new tank.

I am guessing this could also be done on the top of the tank to save drilling the glass. Just put Ls on the ends into the tank and silicone them in place.


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## Corpus Callosum

Yeah, on my next tank I'm going to be doing it on the top of the tank, so I can just build a canopy around the whole top and you won't see any of the contraption. The best part is you can unscrew the circuit box to check on the fan for maintenance. There are also larger circuit boxes at home depot in case you want a larger fan for a larger viv.


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## KeroKero

Wow, this is actually something I was looking into for my 60g project... I'd need to keep the air moving for the epiphytes I hope to put in there, but definately wasn't going to drill the tank for it! I'm rather loathe to drill the lid too as the glass lid I got with the tank would be really hard to replace... does polycarb warp like acrylic does?


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## Corpus Callosum

I just set up another tank with the same system but made it a bit more hidden (although not a pumilio tank). Two bulkheads were drilled in the back of the tank (top left and top right corners), covered in mesh, and then I continued to use tree fern / foam for my background as usual. The result blends in much better than having to look at the bulkhead like my last tank.

Used a bigger fan and circuit box this time around. Sealed the air gaps on the side with silicone and let it dry:










Placed foam gasket (comes with circuit box) and put a bead of silicone to seal air gap on top of the fan.










All closed up:










Wired the power supply to a computer fan connector, so now I have a 'quick disconnect' in between the fan and power supply:










Final product on outside / back of the tank:



















The way both corners inside the tank look:



















Overall look:




























One tank was done in the side, this time in the back, I guess it's time to try it out in the top of the tank for next time..


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## GSXR_MURRHEE

That's pretty sweet! I've been trying to figure out a good way to make a recirculating air system. Thanks for putting up the info and pics.


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## Jungle_John

nice one mike, i think that one looks alot better than the side one. let me know how well it dose i might have to start doing that.


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## pl259

Hey Mike,
One thing you might have to keep an eye on is condensation. You'll be taking warmer humid air and passing it through a cooler pipe outside of the viv. You'll likely get condensation inside the pipe that might accumulate in spots in the plumbing. Keep an eye on it. You might need to add small weep holes in the bottom of the pipe at sections where it accumulates or take it apart and drain it. Adding some insulation around the plumbing would help too if it becomes a problem. I guess the risk is you might get enough to affect the fan or promote mold growth. Shouldn't hurt the piping any.


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## Tripod

Mike,

That's a great setup. I like how it's hidden yet accessable.

I might suggest one small change (for future vivs.), and that would be to have the intake and exhaust at different heights (i.e. top and bottom). 

This would allow for air to flow not just across the viv. within one temperature gradient, but also up (or down) through the various temperature and humidity levels. This would set up several air currents in the viv and insure that less air was left stagnant.

Again, good job.

Steven


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## Corpus Callosum

Eric,

One bulkhead is a few mm higher than the other so the piping itself is on a slope, any excess moisture gets sent to the circuit box / other end of piping. It's hard to see but the fan is raised 1 cm off the bottom of the box. So there is enough space for a small puddle of water to accumulate there and not have the fan sitting in it. Every few weeks I open the circuit box and check on the fan like that to make sure nothing has built up. If there are any issues I can always add a hole at bottom like you said. Thanks for outlining the concerns as it is important to keep that stuff in mind and check on it often!

Steven,

Good idea, I'll have to do that next time. Maybe for now I can use some foam on the exhaust that will angle the air downwards so it hits the bottom of the viv.


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## pl259

Sounds like you have it well under control Mike.

Keep up the good work!!!


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## bbrock

MartyA said:


> Hi Brent;
> 
> 
> 
> I use UVB light and mineral soil and I have never had to treat a froglet with calcium gluconate. We all know about UVB. But mineral soil (I use clay) that contains calcium (it can be supplemented with a little lime) also provides a source of calcium either by being ingested directly when the frogs feed on soil fauna, or transferred to the fauna and then to the frog
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering about this. Are you using a UVB penetrable lid (not normal glass?). Do you still suppliment with Vit D (/D3)? or does your terrarium soil fauna contain enough of that for the frogs? Are you relying on the UVB from your bulb for all your Vit D3?
Click to expand...

Hi Marty,

Yes, I have solacryl on the top with 2x36w reptisun 10 tubes in the canopy. That's pumping in a lot of UVB but it is a tall and heavily planted tank. I do still supplement with vitamins and calcium to the adults and froglets that are able to consume ff. But the supplements are infrequent because I only add food about once every week to week and a half and I rotate dustings rather randomly depending on my mood. They probably see calcium powder on their food 1-2x per month and vitamins 1x per month on average. I have no idea whether these supplements are necessary. I just do it as a safeguard. My hunch is that the combo of UVB and soil inverts is enough but that hunch isn't enough for me to gamble on.



> [quote:2s2fqmyg]source of calcium either by being ingested directly when the frogs feed on soil fauna, or transferred to the fauna and then to the frog


 In the long run which do you think would be the greatest contributor to calcium for our frogs? I have been toying around with screened compost heaps within my tanks and adding ground up egg shells as a source of CaCO3. I also do this with my earthworm composts for my caudates to increase the calcium content and neutralize the medium. In my compost setup im focused mostly on the calcium content of the insects (although I suppose some may be injested when they pick at the compost).[/quote:2s2fqmyg]

In the long run my guess is that the soil calcium is more important. It should be more consistently available and most of the frogs spend a lot of time in contact with the soil so likely absorb some calcium directly through skin. Exposure to UV is sporadic since there is a lot of shaded areas in the viv, the viv floor is beyond the limit of therapeutic UVB dose, etc. But the adult male spends most of his time in the plant canopy while the others spend a lot of time foraging on the ground. So the male may be more dependent on UVB while the others more so on the substrate.

Eggshell seems like a good way to go. The one disadvantage I can think is that it probably takes it a long time to get to an avialable form which could be absorbed directly through skin. So it probably is great at increasing Ca content of food ingested but may not stick to food items as well or be available for direct absorption like some other forms of Ca. Just my guess. Ed may have a better answer.


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## Chano

Tripod said:


> I will use a small aquarium air pump connected through a "water bubbler" for humidification (think hookah)
> Steven


ok i know this is from way back at page 1 but i get a mental image of some pums sitting around a bong like "duuude you got any fruit flies stashed I got the munchies like a mofo." but im probably the only one who finds this funny.


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## Z_Ruby1212

Chano said:


> Tripod said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will use a small aquarium air pump connected through a "water bubbler" for humidification (think hookah)
> Steven
> 
> 
> 
> ok i know this is from way back at page 1 but i get a mental image of some pums sitting around a bong like "duuude you got any fruit flies stashed I got the munchies like a mofo." but im probably the only one who finds this funny.
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Tripod

Chano said:


> Tripod said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will use a small aquarium air pump connected through a "water bubbler" for humidification (think hookah)
> Steven
> 
> 
> 
> ok i know this is from way back at page 1 but i get a mental image of some pums sitting around a bong like "duuude you got any fruit flies stashed I got the munchies like a mofo." but im probably the only one who finds this funny.
Click to expand...

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


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## pigface

I'm bringing this thread back to make an obseravtion , and opinion . 

The more I see my tanks and frogs mainly the pumilio with the internal air circulation fans in them the more I think it should be used for all pumilio tanks . I'm Not talking about front glass clearing fans , but fans that strictly move air around inside the tanks .

I don't know if it is coincidince or not but the tanks I have the air circulation in the frogs seem alot healthier in and breed better in also . The plants grow thicker and the broms don't rot and die off as much . 

In my first rack setup there is no air movement in the tanks no air circulation fans and I have had 3 male pumilio die this year in them so far , ones that I've had for a couple years with no problems then just disapear . And I have had none die in the other tanks so far with the air circulation in them . Whether bacteria builds up in the constantly moist tanks over time that don't get a chance to dry out occationally and has a long term effect on the frogs or not I don't know . In the wild they are not always subjected to constant damp conditions , it has to have some ill effects on them . 

And lately in the tank I have one pair of Cayo de Agua in , it was supposed to be a temp tank with just a glass top. They were breeding so well in it that I never moved them to another tank . Well I noticed recently the male started looking kind of thin compared to how he used to look and the plants and broms didn't live very long in there either and also they hadn't bred for a little while ( for them at least ) . So I took off the glass top and added a fan to circulate some air just inside the tank and also a small screen covered air hole to let a little fresh air in . And I noticed today ( about a month later ) while doing some maintenence that the male put the weight back on and looks healthy again . The plants look better and I found a couple froglets in there also as a suprise , since I never saw any eggs . Wether it was the fan mods or coincidence ??? I think the fan had a big part in it . 
I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to put circulation in all sp. of frog tanks as long as the humidity stays in the correct range .


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## Rich Frye

And to further show that what works for one does not always work for another, I have no use of fans in any of my pum vivs. I agree it would be better for the plants in most cases. 
I only used a fan once with a bribri pair. The pair did not do well at all and are in-fact the only pum adults I have really had any death with ,as a pair. I'm sure that the fan was not the cause, but it was not the cure either. Pumilio do need fans to stay healthy.
I think we also need to understand that much as with a lava lamp, whhen we add heat ,AKA a light source , to an enclosed area of air we get air movement known as thermals. So to say a tank has "stagnant air" which I read about all the time , it would have to mean there is no light utilized. Or all LEDs. In either case I don't quite find it possible. I read more and more about the need for internal circulation. My tanks have it, just not caused by a fan .

Rich


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## catman25

wow !!! how have i not seen this post before? i just got a pair of basti at a meet yesterday and then started reviewing old posts , Alot of ideas here!!!! But i do have a few ??? i have already planted and settled 15 verts . i have one for bsti pair , 2 for imi pairs , 1 for leucs and 1 for colbalts ... um well anyway a bunch of tanks and i love the idea or air movement . I dont think i can do a outer assemble as the tank already has frogs chillin . so im looking to incorp a inside set up . My 360 had a intercooler that had 3 fans they are 2 inch and allready firgure i can use my timer to give 6 volts and then 9 ( max 12 volts rated ) does any one have a write up for making a inside set up ? Heres my thought take a straight pvc pipe just large enough to put fan in the middle ,glue in place .... then take elbows on both ends at different rotations , then net both ends of course .. then i plan on siliconing brown and attaching dirt let dry them add broms and use this stucture as another vertical influence ... im just worried about wirering from iside to outside the tank . 6-9 volts arent alot but anytips on this ? as well can anyone renew this discussion with the setups they were using .. and how the set up is doing now?


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## fleshfrombone

Why hasn't this thread been made a sticky?


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## Mitch

fleshfrombone said:


> Why hasn't this thread been made a sticky?


Agreed, it should be added to the oophaga section with the care sheets.


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## Philsuma

A good thread.....


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## skylsdale

Just to follow up on some things that have been posted previously in this thread (glad to see it working its way back up). Brent (bbrock) has mentioned time and time again that, if set up properly and given proper conditions, "Blue Jeans" pumilio will, in his words, "breed like rabbits." This surprises a lot of folks (given this pumilio form's reputation for being difficult to breed), but I think it is a testament to the importance of providing proper environmental and spatial conditions for these guys.

I thought it was worth showing an image of what a captive-bred and raised "Blue Jeans" subadult can look like when things are done well:










This frog is the offspring of frogs that were imported a decade ago, so it's quite likely the parent frogs are in their teens...yet still producing healthy, vibrant offpsring (Brent does supplement with Naturose). 

Given proper nutrition, UV lighting, and plenty of space...these frogs can do quite well for quite some time.


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## epiphytes etc.

bbrock said:


> As for soil. My favorite thus far has been to use Redart potter's clay mixed with some mycorhizae rich soil. The part I haven't figured out yet is getting it to form the aggregates that create a sandy texture but I'm working on it. It looks just like (actually is) tropical soil but without the texture.


there is a really good gypsum product on the market called arizona's best. gypsum is a water soluble source of calcium, which in theory could be absorbed directly through a frog's skin. at the very least, trace amounts would "cling" to feeder insects. you could try sprinkling a thin layer over the substrate, then add leaf litter on top. lava sand is an excellent source of micro-nutrients. this could be incorporated into the clay. with this product it is important to include as much fines as possible. soil bacteria/fungi should be able to break the nutrients down into a usable form for the frogs over time.


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## epiphytes etc.

also, if one chooses to use gypsum, it should never be used near background clay, as it will cause the clay to calcify and clump over time. there should be no problem with using it on the floor.


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## Burningchef

bbrock- If you use UVB lighting wich "Brand" do you use? 
And I found a Lime additive for plants (Organic Tradition- thats the brand) but 21 % of it is calcium. Would this be enough to just add to my soil?
And could there be too much calcium in the sand?


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## skylsdale

Brent (bbrock) won't be answering here only because he doesn't frequent the forums much anymore. You could try inquiring on Frognet and will probably get a reply...but to answer the question: any bulb that puts out UVB should work fine. I believe Reptisun are what he's used in the past.

The lime should work just fine--I used the lime that is used in creating whitewash for buildings and mortar. I'm not sure about having too much Ca in the substrate...I have a feeling you would need to add quite a bit for it to be a problem (such an alkaline soil that plants may not like it, etc.)...but I still think with the decomposition of organic matter such as leaf litter, as well as water flushing through the substrate, etc. you would be okay. Testing the water from the system might be interesting to do.


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## Burningchef

Thanks Ron. One more question though. Where do you mount the uvb bulbs? If you mount them at the top then the frogs can just clim to the top and be way too close and absorb too much UVB. Put them higher up to account for this and they won't have enough UVB reach the bottom. I'm not sure how much Reptisun puts out but the bulbs that I know of would probably be too strong. I use MegaRay UVB Bulbs from ReptileUV.


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## skylsdale

You need to use either Solacryl or Starfire glass for part of the lid over the tank (at least the part beneath the bulb) as both of those materials allow UVB to penetrate.


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## ChrisK

skylsdale said:


> You need to use either Solacryl or Starfire glass for part of the lid over the tank (at least the part beneath the bulb) as both of those materials allow UVB to penetrate.


I think Starphire was found to not really transmit uvb, look into Borofloat if you want to use glass. Solacryl (or any uvb transmitting plastic) is supposed to be replaced after about 2 years.


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## btcope

so reading this thread has REALLY made me want pumilios. i worry because the care sheets call oophagas advanced, and i've only made one viv housing azureus (just wish they'd start breeding!) so far. 

i just love the idea of leaving the parenting to the frogs and watching the whole process from outside. egg feeders IMO are the coolest frogs... 

i'm currently building 2 20gal verts and am going to find inhabitants for them at the reptile super show in pomona, ca in january. 

plans include getting away from the great stuff and doing a clay wall with a slow drip (bought me a couple minijet 404s on amazon) and setting up an enclosed air ventilation system w/ a 2.5" fan that i had lying around. i'm confident that i can get the setup right and will spend countless hours messing w/ things until i feel its perfect.

i've got fly culturing down easy, and i've had no problem keeping a spring culture going and dumping it in for my azureus group to snack on between meals... so the feeding doesn't really intimidate me. 

what do you guys think? getting too big for my britches too soon? should i start with something easier and work my way up?

thanks in advance,
brett


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## Pumilo

btcope said:


> so reading this thread has REALLY made me want pumilios. i worry because the care sheets call oophagas advanced, and i've only made one viv housing azureus (just wish they'd start breeding!) so far.
> 
> i just love the idea of leaving the parenting to the frogs and watching the whole process from outside. egg feeders IMO are the coolest frogs...
> 
> i'm currently building 2 20gal verts and am going to find inhabitants for them at the reptile super show in pomona, ca in january.
> 
> what do you guys think? getting too big for my britches too soon? should i start with something easier and work my way up?
> 
> thanks in advance,
> brett


Hey Brett, Pumilios aren't the best choice for beginners. Can I suggest this? Pumilio are Obligatory egg feeders. That means the only way the tads can be raised is by egg feeding. Imitators are Non-Obligatory egg feeders. You can still watch the whole process of the parents caring for the tads and egg feeding them. The non obligatory part just means you could pull the tads and care for them yourself if you wanted. Plus, the froglets have a much better chance of surviving. Pumilio can be very challenging to raise partially because of the calcium issues. You can't dust your springtails. They are not big enough to carry enough dust to do any good. So the pumilio froglets get to a certain age and die. Your Imitators can take small dusted fruit flies pretty much from the start so they get their calcium and will thrive for you. So you raise up some Imitators and sell/trade the offspring towards some Pumilio a little later. This allows you time to read up on the calcium issues and read http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html
That thread can help you solve the pumilio froglet calcium problems. Further, the people who are having the most success with pumilio are using mostly bigger than 20 gallon vivs.
Just something to think about. Imitators are awesome little frogs too, that can give you the egg feeder experience. Plus they will be providing you with the knowledge and experience, (and funding!), to be able to be successful with Pumilio a little bit later.
Doug


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## btcope

thanks for the response. i've been reading up on imis as well. all i can say is, i think i'm going to need a bigger house  ... my girlfriend is already threatening to send me to frogaholics anonymous because i spend too much time on DB. 

although, when earlier presented with a "this or that" species question she responded, "why not both?" ... 

i'll leave the pums to you pros for now, but sooner or later i'm going to have to get my hands on some el dorados. gotta love that orange.


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## Pumilo

btcope said:


> although, when earlier presented with a "this or that" species question she responded, "why not both?" ...
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Sounds like a gf worth keeping around for a while!
> Doug


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## Pumilo

btcope said:


> gotta love that orange.


yeah, nice! So check out the Imitator Varadero in the meantime.
Doug


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## tclipse

Bump for a great thread.. great read for anyone considering pumilio.


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## tclipse

I've noticed that my pumilio are much more active in lower light than bright light, my El Dorado (SNDF 08) in particular. It applies to my Solarte as well to a slightly lesser degree. 

With dual T5's overhead (6" above the glass), the El Dorados won't come out until the lights are off, and the Solarte stay in partial shade. I placed two layers of nylon screen (same as used for substrate dividers) on their top glass to diffuse the light, based on similar observations from Rich Frye regarding granulifera... they were out and about within 5 minutes midday and haven't gone back to hiding since. 

Lowering the light made a substantial and nearly instantaneous change in their behavior.... I'll post again if it was short term behavior due to a dusk effect, but I'm fairly confident in this assumption for the time being. I'm also going to try it with my terrestrials/thumbnails to see if the results are similar.


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## Y0urbestfriend

bump, its been more than 3 years since anyone has posted something here. I certainly learned alot from this thread, maybe some future pumilio owners will too.


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## cam1941

This thread is really informative... More so than any of the caresheets IMO.

Is there anything any pumilio experts would like to add or update? 

As a bonus there is a cool design for a fan box.


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## Hunlock

This thread is fantastic! 
I recently acquired a pair of blue jeans from a drawing that I won. I read as many sheets as I could find as well as sought help from many people that commented on my FB post. The frogs are still in quarantine, but seem to be doing well. Very active.
This thread helps me out immensely, and I'll be sure to keep following it.

Thanks for the great info!


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## DunderBear

Really need to update the care sheets most of them are from 2006 and the hobby has changed a lot since then if I'm correct.


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