# why not ship tads?



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

this message isnt directed at anyone, so if i've PMd you about tads please dont assume this is about you (i have sent out a number of PMs)

is there any specific reason i see so many people hesitant to ship tads? aside from not making as much money as selling them as froglets, i see NO advantages to morphing them and then shipping. in fact i see several disadvantages, the most obvious being that tads are MUCH more hardy than froglets and ship with less stress or risk to the animal. 
in many cases shipping tads can be done 2nd day instead of overnight so lower shipping costs can be an added benefit as well. 
there is less risk of injury during transport, no risk of asphyxiation due to moss, paper towels, or leaves covering the animal. theres no risk of entrapment by these objects either.

so what gives? is it really all about making the extra money? granted the prices are much higher for froglets, but its extra time and effort that the seller is putting into their care so if we put a value on time and resources, its not that severely different.

just something i noticed recently and wanted some opinions on.
james


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

I agree, particularly about the hardiness and also that money is the most likely answer the vast majority of the time, whether people want to admit it or not. 

Another issue is probably the lack of literature on the subject of shipping them, I'm sure it makes some uncomfortable. In my opinion, *most* tads that people lose in transit are due to outdated shipping practices, or by shipping delicate species too early/too late in development. 

By shipping them like FW fish with Kordon Breather Bags (which allow oxygen exchange with the water so there's a lower risk of toxin buildup or oxygen deprival) along with the usual styro box/phase pack/heat or cold pack if necessary, I've never had an issue and have shipped quite a few tads (and a ton of delicate FW fish in the past), knock on wood. I feel much more comfortable shipping them than young froglets personally.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i suspect that most of the time its a money issue as well. probably half my collection (at its peak) was comprised of animals i acquired as tads. 

i understand an unwillingness to let go of a tad for $15 when you can morph it out and sell the froglets for 70-100, but it seems that there are many people out there that think its not a safe option, and that shipping tads will be more risky than shipping froglets.

perhaps we need to put together a shipping tads care sheet and eliminate the unfounded beliefs that its not a good idea.

james


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I agree James that shipping tads is much less stressful on an animals when shipped as a tad as opposed to a young froglet.
There was a study done in England that compared adult sizes of animals that were shipped as tads vs shipped as frogs, and almost all tads shipped ended up larger than the froglets that were shipped. Lots of variables I know but logic seems to me that this would be better for the frogs to be shipped as a tadpole.
2 things I think outside of the money would be the questions of your technique of raising tads vs mine, would the change hurt or effect them? Would the water chemistry difference between your area of the country and mine make a difference as well, those are the 2 things that would slow me down in the process.


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## NVfrogger (Apr 10, 2011)

Some people might not want to ship tads due to the morphing stage. If the tad morphs with sls or dies before morphing people that had bought the tad might come back on the seller and want some kind deal for the bad tad. There would be no real way to prove if the tad was taken care the correct way before or after the purchase so might not be a the best situation. Not saying its bad to buy tads just a thought. I guess that could be a possible reason some people don't like to ship tads.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

tclipse said:


> By shipping them like FW fish with Kordon Breather Bags (which allow oxygen exchange with the water so there's a lower risk of toxin buildup or oxygen deprival) along with the usual styro box/phase pack/heat or cold pack if necessary, I've never had an issue and have shipped quite a few tads (and a ton of delicate FW fish in the past), knock on wood. I feel much more comfortable shipping them than young froglets personally.


You know, I think I've even read somewhere on the forums that someone's even shipped tads in 15mL eppendorf tubes without much trouble.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Oh the ole eppendorf tube shipping method.....nice


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> Oh the ole eppendorf tube shipping method.....nice


I just googled those tubes and they *look* ok to ship tads in. What is wrong with them and what is suggested to ship in? I received tads in maybe 30ml screw top plastic test tubes before. What's recommended? 

You just seem to be against the eppendorf tubes is why I asked. I could have taken your post the wrong way too... Y'all.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm not going to kid you, I do like to see something coming out of our efforts. I have a family and the money I make at work stays as family funds. When I want a new group of thumbs or pums to work with, or materials like cork bark, ghost wood, etc, it does have to come from money generated within the frogroom. $15 for a tadpole doesn't buy a bag of fruit fly media. Does this mean I'm just in it for the money? Absolutely not. Sure it does sometimes throw a little extra money into the family funds but most of what we generate goes straight back into the frog room. There are much easier ways to put food on the table.
In addition, I have the same concerns that NVfrogger brought up. 
That said, if I had a chance to swap tads for tads, that would be a different story, though I would have to feel good about the reputation of the breeder. If he has not taken proper care of the tads in their first month, or even properly supplemented the parents, then it may be impossible to morph a proper froglet.
For the most part, I would just rather be able to release a proper, healthy froglet into the hobby.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I don't ship tads, just seems to be too much hassle. I do, however,ship egg clutches. quite easy and the recipient gets to grow up the tads themselves!


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

One thing to admit, almost no one is making money doing frogs at the hobbyist level, as in not doing frogs as your sole employment/business. There have been some good years where the demand for what you have aligns and the money comes in, but those are rare. Usually it's sitting on and feeding a lot of frogs no one wants.

There is a belief that shipping tads is hard and differant water can be detrimental to them so the practice is discouraged. The other belief in the hobby is that tads should be "cheap". One of the reasons I don't sell tads often is that the buyer expects to pay 20% of the going rate, and almost all the time if you ask for more they don't return emails and get offended that they are being raped for money.

How much more work is it to feed a tad for weeks and morph out a froglet? Almost none, and if that if the difference between $20 and $100, who's gonna sell tads for $20.

If the price for tads was closer to froglets this could be a viable option.

great thread
Eric


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

eldalote2 said:


> I just googled those tubes and they *look* ok to ship tads in. What is wrong with them and what is suggested to ship in? I received tads in maybe 30ml screw top plastic test tubes before. What's recommended?
> 
> You just seem to be against the eppendorf tubes is why I asked. I could have taken your post the wrong way too... Y'all.


Perhaps dark elf you must ask yourself is this really about eppendorf tubes, or is there more, maybe a prejudicial bias against my profession of interprative liturgical dance? You too are now directed to TD and the White Devil thread.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

markpulawski said:


> Perhaps dark elf you must ask yourself is this really about eppendorf tubes, or is there more, maybe a prejudicial bias against my profession of interprative liturgical dance? You too are now directed to TD and the White Devil thread.


Are we serious right now...


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

NVfrogger said:


> Some people might not want to ship tads due to the morphing stage. If the tad morphs with sls or dies before morphing people that had bought the tad might come back on the seller and want some kind deal for the bad tad. There would be no real way to prove if the tad was taken care the correct way before or after the purchase so might not be a the best situation. Not saying its bad to buy tads just a thought. I guess that could be a possible reason some people don't like to ship tads.


That is one major reason there is a premium price for froglets over tads, with tads it is assumed as buyer's risk unless they arrive unhealthy in the first place. It's a de facto principle that isn't really put out in the open all that much, but it's the way tad transactions are usually done from what I've seen.

The implication is that the lower price = buyer beware. 



hypostatic said:


> You know, I think I've even read somewhere on the forums that someone's even shipped tads in 15mL eppendorf tubes without much trouble.


Wouldn't surprise me, tads put out waste at a slow enough rate to be kept in tiny containers or broms... I use the Kordon bags as a precaution more than anything else (and because I have them on hand from the FW fish days). @ 25/$10 they aren't particularly expensive and can easily hold multiple tads. 

Better safe than sorry when it comes to shipping live animals, IMO. One close call was enough for me to figure that out.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> Oh the ole eppendorf tube shipping method.....nice


Not sure how this was interpreted as a negative slant on shipping tads in tubes, it was not meant to be. I have never shipped a tad in a tube but would whole heartedly endorse using them, eppendorf or not. I personally use half pint spring water bottles but I am sure tubes would work out great!


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

James, in some cases it might be about making more money, but there are several other reasons why you might have problems shipping tadpoles: First, spindle-leg syndrome - what do you do if they have it? 2) fungus - tadpoles are susceptible to fungal infections which can kill tadpoles and rough treatment can lead to these infections (I've experienced it). 3) Shipping - tadpoles will float around in water and bounce off the sides of the container - see 2 above. Also water is heavy - shipping is more expensive, sometimes much more and buyers bulk at that. 

Your assuming that tadpoles are more hardy than froglets, but I have my doubts. If frogs are shipped properly - in tubes where there isn't a lot of room for them to bounce around, they do quite well. I personally use centrifuge tubes when I have them and they work wonderfully. Put a small plug of damp sphagnum moss at the end and the frogs ship well - even large tincts. I think probably the best way to ship frogs is as eggs, then froglets, then tadpoles. 

Best,

Chuck



james67 said:


> is there any specific reason i see so many people hesitant to ship tads? aside from not making as much money as selling them as froglets, i see NO advantages to morphing them and then shipping. in fact i see several disadvantages, the most obvious being that tads are MUCH more hardy than froglets and ship with less stress or risk to the animal.
> in many cases shipping tads can be done 2nd day instead of overnight so lower shipping costs can be an added benefit as well.
> there is less risk of injury during transport, no risk of asphyxiation due to moss, paper towels, or leaves covering the animal. theres no risk of entrapment by these objects either.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

chuckpowell said:


> 3) Shipping - tadpoles will float around in water and bounce off the sides of the container


I think the idea is that shipping the tads in a container filled with water leads to the animals bouncing off the sides of the containers LESS because they are surrounded by something that cushions their movement. For comparison, take a gummy bear and put it in a pint size water bottle and throw it against the wall. Notice how much it bounces in the container, and compare it to how much it bounces around when you fill the container with water.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i feel the same way, and i'll stand by my assessment that tads are better suited for shipping and less prone to injury during shipping by giving an example. black jungle (who have been around for a LONG time) were (at least in one point in tutorial videos) changing tadpole water by pouring tads into what is essentially a sieve. then transferring them to fresh water. tads IME are far far more hardy than froglets. 

i also cant imagine water quality differences being that big of an issue since there are people all over the country raising tads, if it was that big of a problem you'd expect to see areas where people would have serious trouble rearing anything.

and as far as problems morphing the tads, its been my experience that this is discussed before a transaction is made and there is either a morph guarantee or there isnt. you generally pay more for that guarantee, but with almost every tad transaction ive done there has been the understanding (discussed between both parties) that tadpoles that do not emerge will be replaced (usually for the cost of shipping).

i have to speculate that shipping costs wouldnt be more since we're talking about very small amounts of water. i couldnt see the water weighing more than, lets say, a phase pack. in fact IME shipping has been considerably less expensive.

and eggs are more hit or miss IMO. eggs mold over, arent ever fertilized, "melt" etc. a tad is already at a point where development isnt as serious of a concern.

im also not talking about handing tads out to every tom, dick and mary who have 5 minutes of experience with darts, im talking about the sale of tads between 2 keepers with experience morphing tadploes previous to the sale.

it just seems like this used to be a pretty common practice and for whatever reason a ton of misinformation has spread around causing many to believe that shipping tads is more likely to result in failure than shipping froglets.

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypostatic said:


> I think the idea is that shipping the tads in a container filled with water leads to the animals bouncing off the sides of the containers LESS because they are surrounded by something that cushions their movement. For comparison, take a gummy bear and put it in a pint size water bottle and throw it against the wall. Notice how much it bounces in the container, and compare it to how much it bounces around when you fill the container with water.


If the air volume is removed then the agitation is reduced allowing for survivial but this doesn't mean that a pressure wave is reduced. For example if there was a small fish or tadpole in the above example, the pressure wave from hitting the wall and rebounding is going to damage/kill the animal. This won't change whether it is tadpoles, froglets, or adult frogs. 

With respect to spindly leg, if the recipient has water with high levels of phosphates then the tadpoles can have SLS with no fault on the shipper but given how high a prevelence that SLS is caused by poor parental nutrition, the seller could be in for some serious negative feedback. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Matt3506 (May 25, 2009)

I agree I think its much safer shipping tadpoles then shipping frogs. I've never lost a tadpole even when there's been a shipping delay. The kordon breathable fish bags are my container of choice.


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## evolvstlldartfrogs (Oct 5, 2007)

james67 said:


> this message isnt directed at anyone, so if i've PMd you about tads please dont assume this is about you (i have sent out a number of PMs)
> 
> is there any specific reason i see so many people hesitant to ship tads? aside from not making as much money as selling them as froglets, i see NO advantages to morphing them and then shipping. in fact i see several disadvantages, the most obvious being that tads are MUCH more hardy than froglets and ship with less stress or risk to the animal.
> in many cases shipping tads can be done 2nd day instead of overnight so lower shipping costs can be an added benefit as well.
> ...


I'm just not comfortable doing it. It's not about making more money, though there is that. It's more about wanting to ensure that what I ship is going to survive and thrive. I've had tads die even when they were almost out of the water, and since I can't be absolutely positive that a tad won't have SLS as a frog, I wait until I know they're healthy. I'd rather wait a little longer and ship a slightly larger froglet than send a tadpole I can't guarantee. It's an ethics thing for me, I guess.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I have to think its just the money for the most part, other than that I wouldnt see shipping tads as any safer, what I have done is when a friend wanted tads I would lay pothos loeaves under coco huts for some frogs and when they lay I roll up the leaf into a tube and shit it. Its easy and safe. 
For most of the frogs people would rather buy tads over froglets its usually the price involved, what we need is more managed breeding of them all and the proces would level out.

Michael


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

poison beauties said:


> I would lay pothos loeaves under coco huts for some frogs and when they lay I roll up the leaf into a tube and shit it. Its easy and safe.




This sounds neither easy nor safe


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> This sounds neither easy nor safe


Easy, Safe, tested and true. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/72407-shipping-egg-clutches.html


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the typo is the joke there...
I think all methods are fine as long as the packaging is ok. I would buy eggs, tads ar frogs from any breeder I trusted, and I think shipping tads would be super easy. I have unlimited 50 ml conical vials at work. some water, a bit of leaf, a tad, good to go!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

it IS easy, which is why i posed this question. like i said, MANY of the frogs ive owned came to me as tads.

thanks for contributing everyone, i like that i'm getting a broader sense of people's logic here. i'd love to hear more opinions on the subject.

james


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

In the end, people can do WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT. If they want to try to make some more $ by waiting to sell froglets, thats fine. Its a tough economy and every penny helps, or at least helps support their own hobby. Other people are just about perpetuating the hobby, and basically give animals away, or just trade for whatever they can. Ive done a lot of this with my leucs and imis...but you can bet I won't with my highland lamasi! LOL. Only because Ive put too much time and effort into aquiring such a hard to get species, and will always give friends first crack at purchasing well started healthy animals for a reasonable price compared to what I paid for my stock. 

I look at the vivarium hobby in general as an amazing way to trade and share interests, and would always be open to trading frogs/mantids/orchids for other stuff Im interested in like Geosearma crabs, other frogs, mantids, plants etc. I have a good job, and so the money from the hobby is less important to me than getting crazy cool animals and plants distributed out to folks who will truly appreciate them.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i just want to make it clear that im not implying that people who dont want to ship tads are just in it for the money. thats obviously NOT the case.

i brought this up because i believe there is a good bit of misinformation about the risks involved with shipping tadpoles, and because i suspect it has much more to do with this unease than a monetary issue.

james


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

gotcha. I think because its an overall uncommon practice most shy away from it. If you think about it, as long as the shipping container containing the tadpole is sound, shock from rough package handling on the animal should actually be reduced. And if shipping tads in vials or conical tubes, florist foam or styrofoam could be used to contain many many individual vials, along with providing some secondary insulation. The box could be tipped upside down no problem, shaken about, whatever and the risks to the animal would be a lot lower. I think just some fairly clean water and good packaging is all it would take. I would NOT advocate throwing some tads in film containers and letting them roll around more or less loose in a box, LOL


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

frogparty said:


> In the end, people can do WHATEVER THE HELL THEY WANT. If they want to try to make some more $ by waiting to sell froglets, thats fine. Its a tough economy and every penny helps, or at least helps support their own hobby. Other people are just about perpetuating the hobby, and basically give animals away, or just trade for whatever they can.


What goes on here is a typical prisoner's dilemma. If everyone sold tads, the hobby would be more affordable for everyone (revenues would be less, but so would costs). Due to the assumption that others will sell only froglets for more profits and that one would be at a financial disadvantage by selling tads, the incentive is to match that assumption by selling froglets only as well.... which means everyone pay more. Basic economics........


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I understand what you are saying for sure, and I don't disagree, Im just saying that if all that is involved is a friendly transaction between hobbyists, then I wouldnt worry about shipping tadpoles, as long as I knew a bit about the other hobbyists rearing practices.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> I understand what you are saying for sure, and I don't disagree, Im just saying that if all that is involved is a friendly transaction between hobbyists, then I wouldnt worry about shipping tadpoles, as long as I knew a bit about the other hobbyists rearing practices.


The problem is that these things often blow up from being friendly transactions to big issues with threads, pms and e-mails. It can go from friendly to hostile in a heart beat. There can be lots of positive transactions and then the one bad one gets a fire storm going on this and other boards and often all of that positive experiences are gone. 

I'm not sure I would hang my hat on the whole profit scenario as I think there is also a strong culture of trying to not send out bad animals to other hobbyists. For example we can look back at all of the commentaries about how long people should wait before selling/shipping newly metamorphed froglets for at least a couple of months. (and I'm not referencing egg feeders). If the whole process was based on profit/money then the faster you can turn the froglets over, the greater the profit margin since as long as they are on the shelf, they are reducing profit...since they are consuming resources such as food, electricity, heating (if other than electricity), and most importantly, space that could used to rear the next animal to be sold..... 

Yes there is often a fiscal motive but there is also a lot of peer pressure so we can't just blithley seperate them with a word. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

excellent point...we've seen that here more than a few times haven't we?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> excellent point...we've seen that here more than a few times haven't we?


Yes more than a few... laughs... 

Ed


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