# Emergency Rescue, Force Feeding, & metabolic needs



## dmatychuk

Emergency!

I have a histo that I just received that looks like it is going to die and I need help saving this frog. Symptoms and guesses as to the problem.
-I am guessing that it hasn't been dusted enough, if shows all the signs of calcium deficiency.
-It is under stress from the travel on Delta Dash and was sent VERY poorly and literally banged around.
-Not eating or VERY little.
-Very slow movements over the last week get worse. and very little movement.
-Skin when I got it was very sticky (abnormally) so much so the frog was having issues.
-When I got in it was under feed and skinny.
-The second one I got is getting better every day and started out poor but stable enough to get to a healthy condition. 

My guess is this frog is going to die within 48 hours unless i figure something out. I have tried many standard aproaches and any suggestions would be great, ANY HELP ! Please no BS just looking for solution to save this frog.
_________________

David Matychuk


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## Alan

David: The best advice I can give is to follow the basics:

1) Pedialyte soak, maintaining normal PDF temps. Monitor to keep his head out of the liquid (don't want him to drown).

2) Maintain target temperature

3) SEGREGATE from all other PDFs, feed cups, utensils etc. Assume a communicable illness. I would segregate the other Histo that came with it.

4) I would take a stool sample and send to a qualified vet ASAP

5) Feed with very few flies - don't overwhelm with enough flies to cause stress. Use dusted termites or WFF larvae (they are easier to catch for a ill frog). If the WFFs move to fast for the ill frog you can put them in the refrigerator for a few minutes to slow them down temporarily.

6) Someone once suggested a soak that could help with suspected calcium deficiency - but I have forgotten what it is. Perhaps someone will suggest it.

Was this a CB frog? What did the former owner/breeder have to say about it?

Alan


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## Dendro Dave

i believe its just calcium powder and water...maybe use water with tannins in it for its anti bacterial properties along with the calcium. Only other thing i can suggest that wasnt already on that list, is to put a uva/uvb light on it. Its unknown whether this is needed for pdf i guess...but it probably cant hurt, and might help with vitamin/calcium problems. Oh maybe some pancur or another de wormer...might talk to rich frye or his brother if u dont already have some, or for some more suggestions. lessening the parasite load should reduce overall stress and increase health...giving it more of a fighting chance.

If you move it...move it fast...and then leave it be as much as possible to minimize stress. probably already know that though.

Anyways sorry to hear it isnt doin well, i hope everything works out for you and the frog. Its a shame that the dealer would take such poor care of the frog and ship it so carelessly, especially given the breed.


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## Alan

I agree with DD re: the Pancur use - but make sure you talk to Dr. Frye or other competent Vet *before* you use it to understand the potential negative effect of killing off too many internal worms at once can cause (sepsis). Getting the dose just right is important.

Alan


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## sports_doc

*david*

David
Very sorry to hear of your troubles.
Exoterra sells 2 liquid supplements of potential use in this situation.

Electrodize:

35IU D3, dextrose 7.5 mg, K+ 0.8mg, Ca+2 0.2mg and Mg0.1mg per o.1ml of solution. They rec adding 2 drops per 1oz of drinking h20

never know but perhaps a soak or spray might help

also Calcimize supplement....analysis not printed on this one.

I have used occassionally as a spray and additive to my RO H20 for frogs and tads..

may not be a whole lot different than the standard Pedialyte soak....

I hope you can save the fella!

Shawn


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## dmatychuk

Thanks for the quick responses and all very helpful. I am down to the calcium bath and force feeding tonight. In addition to whats been mentioned I have used Dr. Fry's Metranitozole, which should help with appetite, but hasn't so far.
here is some information on the bath that Ed sent me for those who may want to use this in the future.
-You should be able to get calcium gluconate at some of nutritional support stores like GNC, (for an example see http://www.herbs-wholesale.com/shop/det ... ?pid=23756 ) but offhand I can't tell you if GNC has it. Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry recommends a 2.3% solution used as a bath. We have typically used it as a bath for about an hour. 


Has anyone had any luck force feeding? Please explain if you can. I was thinking of mashing up ff and adding a little calcium and squirting with a syringe. Ed brought up the concern that the jaw may be weak, how has other gotten the PDF to open its mouth gently?

*The BIG problem is food intake - if I can get it to eat i am sure I can get it to recover*


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## Dendro Dave

i dont know about force feeding, its so stressful...but if you feel u have to try a mashed up paste of ffs(nutrition), wax worms(fat) and/or meal worms might be the way to go. maybe mix in some supplements of some kind also. Just remember his tummy is small...dont shove to much in there 

Good luck...is it still eating at all? If it is maybe some hydei would be the way to go...more bang per eatin fly.


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## Dane

Have you gotten a fecal done? It would seem like a pretty good investment for such a rare and I'm sure expensive frog. How can you hope to treat effectively if you don't know what the problem is?


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## ColombianFrogger

Hi,
I don´t believe it´s a calcium problem...
if it´s a WC, they come so stressed, so probably it´s suffering from the bad adaptation syndrom (lose weight, parasitic and bacterial growth because inmunosupress due stress, doesn´t eat)

I propose put it in a very big tank, heavy planted, take fecals, medicines and not to bother it so much. The problems caused by keeping it on a nurse cage may be worse...

that is a thing often seen here with WC parrots and frogs. 

However, if it´s a CB, many of them die before the first 6 months of life... as far as I know, no one seems to know why... they just die

excuse my poor english... I guess it´s getting worse every day


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## sports_doc

*shawn*

David
Is it too weak to eat a lid of FF magots put in front of it?
Has it perked up at all with the Pedialyte baths?

Shawn


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## dmatychuk

Thanks again for everyones help.

Can't get a fecal done there are NONE, its not eating. but I would if I could. I am in emails with Dr. Frye to figure out what to do anyways.

Yes, the baths and Metronidazole are helping and I believe that it is strong enough to gulp down a maggot but he still wont eat one.

The big problem is still the same.........if I could only get him to eat I think the issue could get resolved.

BTW I have not force feed it and don't know that I want to try. It is a CB frog and actually to my knowledge is at least a year old. I have had someone recommend giving the frog a couple of drops of diluted sugar water on its back to help give it better energy levels. has anyone tried this?


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## dmatychuk

OK something very wierd is happening with the frog. It is opening its mouth wide and letting out a chirp, almost like a little bird chirp. Its done this about 20 times. ?????


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## steelcube

PMed


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## felicitedanes

Hey David,
If you do decide to try force feeding, I found out an easy way from the exotics doc at the vet school. I had to force feed an azureus who had metabolic bone disease secondary to intestinal obstruction and his little jaw was so soft that when I tried sliding a credit card or other small piece of plastic in to open his mouth, his jaw just dented in and I couldn't get the mouth open. The vet showed me how to grab the skin under his lower jaw, very gently obviously, and pull the lower jaw down to open the mouth. It sounds (and looks) awful, but it was much easier and much less stressful than trying to cram something in his mouth and force it open. I used hemostats, which have flat grasping plates, rather than angled/pointed ends like tweezers and just grabbed and small pinch of skin and pulled very softly to open his mouth. It helps to have a second person to then squirt the food in his mouth, since you'd have the frog in one hand and hemostats in the other. I did this for about two weeks and it never damaged his skin or anything, so it might be worth a try if it comes down to force-feeding. (And mashing up fruit flies never worked very well for me, if I had to do it again I'd use FF maggots or beetle larvae.)
Felicite


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## NCSUdart

i'd be very careful with the possibility of force feeding. i've had mixed success with it. i've had a vent die midway through the process, just spasmed and went rigid. if you do force feed i'd be careful to resist the temptation to force too much food down his throat as well.


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## booboo

Im my point of view:
When you get sick what are you supposed to do? Well drink LOTS of fluids including just PLAIN water and some gatorade or something for electrolytes sugar etc. (try a plain spring water soak or make sure there is always a relativley large dish with lots of surface area not too much height and water.
And snack on something in small amounts such as saltines (or some ffs, maggots, etc)
Then mybe get chyecked by a dr (fecal sample him? if possible)

So try?
Plain mountain spring wtaer soak (some mineral)
Small feedings of small food
get a fecal

And every once and a while pedialite soak it


I had a terribilis escape and it must of been out for a while so i thought [email protected]^* its dead but as i tried to pick it up it sort of mad a gross slimy movement very sick looking i soaked it and i actually watched it swell back up and gain back normal coloring it was pretty cool.

Yes i know histos are probably hundred times more sensitive but sometimes the simple solution is the way to go


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## dmatychuk

Thanks again for all the help and suggests and the PMs many of the recommendations are helpful and give me confidence that I am taking the best route of action. I also have been in contact with Dr. David Frye who has been extraordinarily helpful as well and this was his last post to me this afternoon after going over all the identifiable symptoms.
"Start Coating the entire frog with a dilute Silversulfadiazene Solution at least once a day!!!! Also start using Baytril and don’t stop the Metronidazole suspension. This sounds like a fungal dermatitis that can be deadly and extremely contagious!!!"

I would say that the histo is in less danger but not turned any corners yet. The only thing that has had a positive impact that can be seen immediately is the Pedialyte baths. Still not eating. I have literally stayed by its side all day and am sleeping down stairs by it. The little chirps which were weird stopped after about 10 minutes. The second histo is doing great but I have given it medication treatments to help what might be coming on. the only sign on the second one is the skin itching occasionally but in every other way it is getting stronger and more aggressive and it actually called today for the first time.


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## booboo

good to hear it! Hope it makes it


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## Guest

KEEP US POSTED! I've been at the edge of my seat watching this post!!


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## dmatychuk

the course that is being taken is hydration, UV lighting, heavily planted environment, use of multiple medications, and appetite stimulation. the hope is that it will recover from its serious case of malnutrition, decease and stress and hopefully begin eating. At this point the frog looks considerably better hydrated, it has stood up on it own with its front legs(which is a great improvement) but has not stood up on its rear legs yet and still shows considerable exhaustion and very little movement. I still face the big problem of it not eating


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## rompida

I personally would NOT force feed the frog. The amount of stress of this alone may kill a healthy frog, much less a sick one. Frogs can go for quite awhile without food. Get the other parameters under control and the frog may perk up and eat. I would go with the calcium gluconate bath - as opposed to calcium mixed with water - that's not very soluable. Keep giving the metro as per Dr. Frye, its worked for me before. 

Also... the mouth wide open/squeaking thing. Sounds like nasal blockage or respiratory problems. I've also seen a histo do this. I kept it drier for awhile which helped. Just be careful, its easy for an environment to become too dry. I used a pet pal container with paper towel substrate changed daily. Just make sure that paper towel stays wet. 

Good luck. and let us know how it goes.


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## dmatychuk

I believe force feeding is not going to be attempted. As far as the squeaking thing it may have been some of the medication in the nasal way that it was trying to extract, just a guess.

The frog is still VERY week but now moves around the container and I am actually surprised how much BUT when he moves and goes about 3 inches he then goes into one of his spasms. the skin itching has stopped all together. Occasionally he sits up on his front legs. Still not eating to my notice and still no fecal. My current hope is that some of the medication and hydration catches up and he begins to eat and get strength. I would not be surprised either way if he lives or dies tonight. Thanks again for everyones help and advise.


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## Alan

dmatychuk said:


> the hope is that it will recover from its serious case of malnutrition, decease and stress and hopefully begin eating.



Is this frog CB or WC? If CB do you have some understanding how it got in this condition?


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## dmatychuk

It is CB and both frogs are older about 1+ Yes I believe I understand the situation. the frog came with a decease from seller. I don't want to say any more.


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## Ashli

I hope that everything works out.

When one of my baby Auratus died I was devestated, I don't know how I would have handled it if I knew the frog could die at any given time.

You're alot stronger than I am. I really hope this works out for you and the froggie in question.


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## twisner

update please!


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## dmatychuk

The histo died last night at 10:35pm. I stayed with the frog for the last 2 1/2 days and he was never able to eat and his state continued to get weaker. On Sunday morning I had a hope that he was going to recover because he was making the rounds in the his container and spent a good amount of time up on his front two feet BUT his spasms became increased in intensity and duration and each time after a spasm he became weaker. I just couldn't post last night and I spend the night broken hearted. Its awful to lose any frog but when you truly spend a lot of time doing your best to nurse it to health and you actually watch the character of the frog itself wanting to survive and do its best and still lose the battle it is truly heart breaking. I wanted to post because I know a lot of individuals have helped and were pulling for success. It was weird the other Caramel histo in the other tank literally was looking over at me and the other histo for the last two hours and I am not kidding it was looking the the histo that whole night in the dark and didn't get off the leaf that was nearest the other tank. I know some of your will post and say kind things but I really cant even think about reading anything more on this...........I actually am surprised at how much my emotions are wrapped up into this frog and I only had it for a week. thanks again to everyone.


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## elmoisfive

David,

Sorry to hear about your loss. At least you know you gave it a fighting chance.

Bill


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## booboo

i am am sorry that had to happen like it did  
but it all boils down to- you tried your best, the frog no matter the specie it may have not had much of a chance i hope the original seller can give you another knowing what you did for that frog.

I hope things look brighter in the long run
James


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## twisner

I know how it feels when a pet dies. I really feel ur pain in this situation. Even if you do get another one, i know there will still be some sorrow that goes with losing a pet. 
At least you know you gave it all you could give, and that you really gave him a real chance.
Sorry about the whole situation.
Tristan


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## Dendro Dave

eh that sucks.... very cool that you did all that for the frog though. The vendor who kept, sold and shipped that frog so carelessly should be ashamed.


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## dmatychuk

I think vendors are in such a tough position(while there are certainly issues in this case). They are shipping EXTREMELY delicate creatures that even in all the best conditions can do very poorly quickly and end up dying simply because you moved a frog from one tank to the other let a lone shipping to another state. I've seen a frogs condition change dramatically by simply the addition of a mate or a plant in its environment. So all the more important that when you put the trauma on a frog of a big move you do your best to make it as easy as possible. So my understanding goes out to vendors who ship because sometimes no matter what a frog can go down.


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## rmelancon

Histos can be very delicate frogs and it sounds like they were very poorly shipped to begin with. It sucks when any frog in your collection dies but when it is a frog that is basically unreplaceable it is especially hard. Good luck with the remaining animal. Oh, and I think this was already said but don't ever try to force feed a dart frog, you will only do more harm than good.


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## Ed

Over the last 14 years I have force fed several dendrobatids including some juvenile tincts that were about 1.4 grams. 
I am not sure why there is the assumption going around that force feeding is a problem. Yes if done improperly force feeding can kill a frog but so can starvation. Granted it takes a while for a frog to starve to death but if the cause for the lack of appetite is nutritionally related (such as calcium metabolism disruption, hypovitaminosis of A for two examples) then these conditions will not self resolve as there needs to be a nutritional input. 
In addition, the metabolic rate of sick amphibians is typically higher than a amphibian and by not meeting that need it is also possible to further increase the stresses on the animal but lack of nutrients to support an immune response or healing will prolong the problem and possibly kill the frog. 
I would also suggest that the ethics behind allowing the animal to starve to death instead of exposing the frog to the increased transient stress due to force feeding needs to be examined. 

Ed


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## elmoisfive

Ed,

I suspect that it is not an issue of preferring that the frog starve to death versus force feeding as much as it is a question of "can I assist this frog in feeding in a way that won't increase its problems?"

I've assisted snakes and lizards with feeding and I suspect it was as stressful for the owner as it was for them. The idea of taking a fairly delicate frog, particularly a thumbnail, and force feeding....well for the moment I'll use Pedialyte, etc. to try and give them a boost.

I have no doubt that skilled (and brave) individuals can pull off force feeding frogs, even very small ones but I'm not one of them.

Your point is well taken though.

Bill


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## JoshKaptur

Good point Ed. FWIW I have been force feeding an adult azureus every day for almost a month now... he is put on quite a bit of weight, and is strong enough to resist me now... but has not resumed tongue function (he doesn't even attempt to eat).

I use a plant stick to "spoon feed" a very small amount of food. The stick helps pry the mouth open, but that is done mostly by applying downward pressure to the throat sack with a dry thumb. This way I can hold the frog vertically in one wet hand (with a dry thumb) and open the mouth with that thumb... and use the other hand to spoon feed. Once the food is in its mouth, I set him down in his quarantine sweater box, and he typically swallows it in about 30 seconds.

Interestingly, I can feel the frogs heart POUNDING with my thumb when I do this... so no doubt it is stressful. But a frog that was pretty much on deaths door when I started is doing much better a month later.

Josh


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## Guest

> I have been force feeding an adult azureus every day for almost a month now...


Do you know why the frog stopped eating? If so, is it "cured" ? If not do you think you will need to do this indefinitely? and if so whats the point? I don't mean to sound harsh (actually don't mean to sound anything other than curious).

-tad


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## JoshKaptur

Frog lost tongue function. For several weeks I watched him try to feed, but miss every time. Eventually, he just stopped trying.

In another thread, possible causes discussed were vitimin A and/or calcium imbalances. I plan to force feed as necessary for another month, in order to give the cells/muscles time to react and repair to the high-supplement diet the frog is now receiving. If he will not eat after that, I will put him down.

Sorry to hijack.
Josh


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## rmelancon

Ed, I think the reason (at least for me) for the advice against force feeding is that in my opinion it is not something that most people will be able to do without causing further damage to the animal. From my own experience, and though I consider myself fairly experienced with dart frogs, I would not attempt force feeding unless someone who has done it successfully, showed me how.


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## Ed

Some thoughts to ponder on the differences between pedialyte versus force feeding. 
(most of this data is being taken from Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, other sources will be cited as needed). 

Other than tube feeding snakes, frogs are in my experience the next easiest herp to force feed as needed (chelonians and caecilians being the hardest). I would suggest that two people be used for this procedure as this makes it even easier. One person simply restrains the frog and the second person feeds the frog. Simply getting the food into the back of the mouth will cause the frog to swallow the food. (credit cards are invaluable when used to open the mouth on very small frogs). 

When using items like pedialyte to help with the frogs, an important point to remember is that the supplement lacks, protiens, fats, and vitamins. It also lacks calcium (see analysis on http://rpdcon40.ross.com/pn/PediatricPr ... enDocument

It also has an osmolality of 270 mOsm/kg while an isotonic amphibian ringer's solution has a osmolality of 229 mOsm/kg. This could cause further stress on the amphibian as it now has to expend energy maintaining its osmotic equilibrium. This may be a problem with frogs that have lost significant amounts of weight. 

When looking at the standard (resting) metabolic requirements (SMR) of frog at 25 C (assume a three gram frog as this is an intermediate sized frog between thumbnails and larger dart frogs) then the metabolic needs of the frog is as follows 
at 77 F (25 C) 0.174 (3) raised to 0.84 to get 0.438 ml O2/hr. 
then (0.438 ml O2/hr)(0.0048 kcal.ml O2) (24 hrs/day) = 0.5 kcals/day to support resting metabolic rate. Now an inappetant frog will have a resting metabolic rate probably at least 50% greater than the SMR which translates into 0.75 kcals/day. If the frog is thin or has lost a lot of weight, then the SMR may need to be multiplied by as much as 8 times giving a SMR of 4 kcals/day. 
If we assume that a frog can absorb 50% of the glucose (given that whether or not then can absorb any is unknown at this time but there is anecdotal evidence that at least some can be taken up) then depending on condition the frog will need to be soaked in a pedialyte bath that ranges between 11.25 mls to 60 mls to meet the SMR for energy (remember three gram frog). 
(0.75 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.1 kcals) = 7.5 mls/day + (7.5)(0.5)= 11.25 mls of pedialyte
(4 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.1 kcals) = 40 mls/day +(40)(0.5) = 60 mls/day

If being tube fed for example with feline clinicare (0.92 kcal/ml) then only 
(0.75 kcal/day)(1 ml/0.92 kcal) = 0.81 ml/day is needed to supply the needs of the frog (already assuming a 50% increase in the metabolic needs). This can be given more than once over the course of a day if needed to prevent gorging the frog. Clinicare also supplies, protien, fat, D3 and vitamin A (this is one of the reasons we use it at work). 

Pedialyte has its uses but it also has its limitations and this needs to be taken into account when working with sick frogs. 


Ed


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## ColombianFrogger

Ed,
thanks for post that... great information!
Daniel


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## Lukeomelas

Ed,

Thank you for the detailed analysis. I would have to assume the time involved with force feeding the frogs per day would be minimal vs. time spent soaking in Pedialyte. One of the main factors involved in nursing a frog to health is the amount of stress we put the frogs under in addition to the stress due the their illness. I'm sure there is no way to quantify the amount a frog is enduring, but we can probably make educated guesses. I haven't done either, maybe Ed could give us an idea if a short duration of high stress is better then a long duration of low stress?

Next, the benefits of each treatment must be taken into consideration. It is clear that force feeding is going to be the most nutritious, thus givng the frogs the greatest benefit. Plus, the frog's stress recovery rate is probably much greater with a full stomach.

I think the controversial part of this discussion is weather the average hobbiest can perform the force feeding without hurting the frogs. I'm not sure they can.


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## rmelancon

Ed, can you kind of walk us through force feeding? I still feel like if I ever tried it I would wind up with skin abrasions, mouth abrasions, broken bones, etc. Can you describe a safe way to restrain a frog without causing damage? Particularly with smaller frogs.


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## Ed

The stress comments first,

Yes, stress can kill, but the idea is to weigh the benefit between the two treatments to determine which is the best route. If you have a frog that is having issues due to what appears to be a disruption of the calcium metabolism (either calcium insufficiency or hypovitaminosis of D3) then soaking in pedialyte is probably not the best route of treatment as it lack calcium and D3 so the stress from soaking the frog is unneccessary stress while tube feeding the frog may be neccessary stress (but not if the frog can feed itself and is feeding well). 
If you are concerned with the stress from force feeding in these situations then it would far better to obtain 23% calcium gluconate solution (such as from a feed store) and dilute down and soak the frog in this solution as it will at the very least supply calcium as well as some glucose. 

If the frog is having osmotic issues (such as bloating) then it would be better to soak it in a amphibian ringers solution as this at least buffered to the amphibian's osmolality and will reduce stress 
From Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry 
Amphibian Ringer's Solution 
Amphibian Ringer's is made by thoroughly mixing the following in one liter of distilled/reverse osmosis or deionized water: 
Sodium chloride (NaCl) 6.6 grams
Potassium chloride (KCl) 0.15 grams
Calcium chloride (CaCl2) 0.15 grams
Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) 0.2 grams 
The salts will need to be thoroughly stirred to ensure that all salts are well dissolved. 


If the frog is very thin then soaking in pedialyte may enable it to make up some of the nutritional needs (uptake of glucose and some ions) but it will not provide the necessary nutrients to enable it to put on muscle mass, uptake fat soluble vitamins (A, D3, E) and will also require it to expend energy maintaining its osmotic balance. 

In any case, force feeding should typically only be considered, if 
1) the animal is unable to feed itself due to injury or other pathological conditons (such as loss of stickyness of the tongue) that prevent it from feeding
2) the animal has lost 10% or more of its total body weight (even if it is feeding) (becareful that you do not run into refeeding syndrome issues with very thin animals. In these cases, it may be better to assist feed a controlled amount one or two times even if the frog can feed on its own to control the caloric uptake of the frog). 

When working with two people who have had a little practice it can take less than a minute a frog to tube feed.

I know I did not directly answer the stress question but I will see if I can get a better answer tonight or tomorrow. 

Ed


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## Ed

Frog restraint....

Hmm, its hard to describe. I just wrote and erased three descriptions. It may have to wait until I can get some pictures to illustrate the description (I use a couple of different variations depending on the size of the frog and the way I would restrain a pumilio is a little different than I would restrain a tinct.....


Ed


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## andersonii85

Hey Ed,

I don't know if this is the way you do it, but this was the way we did it at NAIB.










Basically, I would pin down the legs with my fingers and hold on snugly. Not too snug. Then, I would use a small laminated piece of paper to open the mouth. Here's a helpfull hint: slide the card gently against the corner of the mouth if you cannot get it to open as this will be the easiest way to do it. The other person will have the syringe and administer the food-stuffs (usually feline clinicare). BTW- wear gloves when doing this and not the type with powders (the cheap ones do)

Hope that helps.

-J


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## Ed

Hi Justin,
That is a great shot of one of the ways to restrain a larger dart. I have used at least one other variation to restrain very little darts by trapping the hind legs, pelvic area with the side of the thumb with the frog facing over the side of my hand. And then I brace that hand with my other one so the second person has a very stable work place. 
With respect to the gloves, the powdered ones can be rinsed off after they have been put on to remove any powder. 

Thanks for the help. 

Ed


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## andersonii85

Ed,

No problem. After reading over your post I realized that I use your side thumbed method with small frogs and especially the fidgity larger frogs. I got accustomed to wearing gloves just because NAIB had a lot of WC frogs and there was no way to tell which ones they were really. I made the mistake one time and that was it. Pumilio will burn your eyes! That is if you touch your eyes after handling the frog. 

-J


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## steelcube

Ed,

I read your post above, but I am a bit confused with this statement: "the metabolic needs of the frog is as follows 
at 77 F (25 C) 0.174 (3) raised to 0.84 to get 0.438 ml O2/hr. "

Would you mind explain this to me? 


SB


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## Ed

Hi Steve,

This is pretty much a formula provided on page 78 of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry for determining the basal metabolic rate of a anuran (there are seperate different formula for caudates and caecilians) where all you need to do is input the correct numbers to get the answers. 

At 25 C the formula is 0.174 (weight in grams) raised to the coefficient of 0.84. 

The multiplier and the coefficient both vary depending on the temperature at which the frog is kept (for example at 5 C it is 0.049 and 0.81 respectively). 

These formula are based on the work published in 
Gatten, R.E. jr.; Miller, K.; Full, R.J.; 1992, Energetics at rest and during locomotion, in Feder, M.E.; and Burggen, W.W.; eds: Enviromental Physiology of the Amphibians, University of Chicago Press, Chicago, pp. 314-317

(I have not been able to afford a copy of the book as of yet as I would like to have access to calculate out the rates for more temperatures.). 

Does this help? 

Ed


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## steelcube

Thanks Ed, it does.


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## dmatychuk

Sorry to those that mind but I though it best to rename this post to help more individuals and target what this post has become.


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## Dancing frogs

Good call David...


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## dmartin72

Great read. This should be a sticky in the disease section!


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## bluedart

dmartin72 said:


> Great read. This should be a sticky in the disease section!


Agreed!


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## pa.walt

*feline clinicare...*

how long do people keep this stuff when it is opened. on the can it read use within 5 days when opened if i remember right.


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## Ed

If you are referring to the clinicare, then I would suggest portioning it out in a extra icecube tray, freezing the extra and thawing it as needed. 

Ed


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## pa.walt

*clinicare*

ed what if it is refrigerated or would you recomend freezing.


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## Ed

It will only last a few days in the fridge. At work we portion it out and freeze it so we don't waste whole cans when feeding small animals. 

Ed


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## pa.walt

i thought it could be stored like some meds in the frig. thanks for the info ed.


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## AZimm

I actually just had to try force feeding one of my tincs for the first time. He appears to have STS and has not eaten at all for a few days...and is loosing body mass. So as far as a way of restraining him, I did find something that worked pretty well. I used a damp paper towel to sort of fold him in gently. Like a small frog burrito Then I could pull the edges of the folded paper towel to tighten my grip on him but without hurting him. So my hands were actually not touching or restraining him at all, only the 2 layers of folded paper towel. I will try to take a picture when he gets his next feeding. So not looking forward to it but it has gotten to the point of try it or watch him starve to death. If you are at all interested in what is going on with my frog and why I would try this...you can see it all on this post (or look up sick tinc)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/150274-sick-tinc.html#post1694106


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