# Dendro-compatability



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I'm doing lots of research on a future viv project with perhaps a 90gl cube tank. I have a few questions which i could not find the answer to on the forums though...

1. I would like to keep terrestrial frogs as well as climbing frogs in the same viv. Which species would fall under terrestrial and which would fall under climbing...

2. I have read mixed opinions on keeping different species of darts in the same environment for fear of inbreeding. What is the general opinion on this and are there any species which will definitely not inbreed?

3. Would it be possible to keep dart frogs with other reptiles or amphibians? Tree frogs, geckos, chameleons, toads? Which animals would be compatible for darts?

4. What do the numbers in front of species names mean? ex. 1.1.0

Thanks everyone!

-Luke


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## Spar (Mar 27, 2004)

1) Pretty much all larger frogs are terrestrial, unless you count Pumilios as "large". Thumbnail species will primarily be your "climbers". All species seem to climb though occassionally. My Tincs climb up my waterfall quite frequently, but dont climb up the plants.

2) Thumbnails will not inter-breed with non-Thumbs. The different Genus' will not inter-breed. Therefore a combo of D. Tincs with D. Vents (like what I have), you will not have to worry about. And obviously Tincs and Terribs will not be a prblem. Keep in mind that they are territerorial, so you need lots of space for the different breeds to keep away from eachother or they will stay stressed. There is no reason why you couldnt get away with this in a 90g though. Just dont go over-board.

3) People have kept Red-Eyed Treefrogs with Darts, and some species of Geckos. Dont do Cham's, or Toads (as some toads still carry toxins without the normal food source). Make sure that the size differences are comparable. Dont buy a large Red-Eye with a thumbnail dart. Just play that smart and you should be fine. Red-Eyes are also better since they are nocturnal and will stay away from eachother during their respective hours. I am not totally sure on the species of Geckos, but I think the smaller Hawaiin Day Geckos. Just be careful with this regardless of your choices, as "accidents" always happen.

4) Male.Female.Unsure (1.1.0 means 1 Male, 1 Female, and 0 Unsure... meaning a Sexed pair).

Hope this helps 

Cliff



Darks!de said:


> I'm doing lots of research on a future viv project with perhaps a 90gl cube tank. I have a few questions which i could not find the answer to on the forums though...
> 
> 1. I would like to keep terrestrial frogs as well as climbing frogs in the same viv. Which species would fall under terrestrial and which would fall under climbing...
> 
> ...


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Thanks alot, that cleared up a lot. But what exactly is a thumbnail species?


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2004)

'Thumbnail' species are typically those of the D. quinquevittatus group. They include more well known species such as D. imitator, i. intermedius, ventricmalulatus, amazonicus, castaneoticus, fantasticus, lamasi, etc. The name comes from the fact that even at adult size, they are usually still the size of your thumbnail or smaller. Lately, and oddly enough, people often refer to D. pumilio as a 'thumbnail'. When you talk about Dendrobatids casually, you normally can group them via the D. tinctorius group, D. quinquevittatus group, and the D. pumilio group (egg feeders). It simplifies certain groupings. Things seem much more complicated though between the groupings, but we'll see where things fit in.
j


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Alright, so far so good. So what other genus' besides Dendro are there?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Phylobates (terribilis etc...), Epipedobates, Minyobates (not seen in the hobby), Colostethes (rocket frogs, also not usually seen), and others, depending on which biologist you ask. Only Dendrobates, Phylobates, and Epipedobates are commonly seen in the hobby.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Alright, great! Thanks guys...i can't wait to start my tank...unfortunately it won't be happening for at least several months...but either way, i'm REALLY excited. It's awesome to be able to learn everything from everyone here...not much trial error to be dealt with...

I've noticed that many people use 4-5" PVC behind their background so that they can access the falsebottom pump easier. What is meant by access? Do you just pull the pump out by the powercord, clean it, and lower it back down to the falsebottom/resevoir?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

you mentioned trial and error, one thing to try out is culturing flies. You are going to need a bunch for a tank that size, if you have anough frogs to see. If you don't get it down you will inevitably end up at some point without enough flies. 
Get some cultures going at least a couple months before your frogs, and mock feed them. Its pretty cheap to try this, and you will pay with your hair (trust me your pull out your hair waiting for flies to hatch) if you don't get it down before you start.

As for pump access, you do need a way to access your pump to clean/maintain it when needed. Just don't build it in a false bottom that is impossible to get to. If you are still planning on the purchase of the tank, consider purchasing it drilled, but not reef ready. This way your false bottom is much more shallow and you simply plumb your return pump from the sump. You also can easily maintain a perfect water level, keep the heater in the sump and put as many or a little filters easily in the sump. I'm assuming your going to have a stand so having a sump is a very easy thing to install.

HTH


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Yes, i'll def have a stand...and i'll be culturing flys also, at least a month in advance of any frogs. I'm slowly learning more and more so i'll be making several adjustments to the tank before i actually start to build it.

As to the sump plans...i'm a bit confused. Where would the hole be and how would the sump work exactly? I was planning on have a filtered pump below the false bottom (easily accesible however) and have that pump/filter my water to a waterfall/stream.

And also i Q from a previous post...why would chams and frogs not be compatible?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

chams and frogs.... many reasons actually. 

Most of your leaf chameleons are wild caught. That equals parasites, some of those may be from madagascar, your frogs South America. Foreign parasites can be extremely lethal to such a small animal. But OK your past parasites, cleaned em out. Now chameleons all have nails, and claws. Your larger brookesia are plenty enough strong to grab a hold of the back of a frog and do some major damage. 
Another reason, your larger brookesia will require more food than you can give via flies plus chameleons really need a lot of variety to have a good diet. Crickets are bad news especially when hungry and bigger than your frogs can eat. 
Once again, poison arrow frogs well have likely something in their succretions that aren't good to eat. Have you seen a chameleon eat? They have bad aim. Frogs juice although not as poisonous as it could be, will not be good for a small lizard.....
Enough reasons?
Ohhh yeah, a non leaf chameleon, needs a lot of ventelation, a completely different style of setup... I used to breed many types of chameleons, they are not compatable long term.


now trial and error. Give yourself two months at least of culturing flies. Your not going to know your cycle needs for getting new cultures going at the right times. Anyone can throw in some flies with some media and make baby flies. Keeping a constant supply is a far different story.

Now for the sump:
You would have a drain hole. A bulkhead which connects your pvc through the glass. It would be raised about 1" in your tank bottom. This will be the level of the water in which it will drain. Your drain will simply be pvc hose or pipe that goes directly into a tank below the main tank. Then you have a pump that feeds a hold in the back of the tank, likely a waterfall. This way you put the water fall up to the glass, glued to the glass. Water comes out and onto the waterfeature and down. Then down into the false bottom/into the drain again. 

You water level will never change in the tank as the drain is always at the same height. 
As water evaporates it will do so from the sumps water level. Now in the sump you put your filters, heaters, pumps. You can easily control all your stuff from an ugly sump that doesn't require hands in the tank. It is really the best way to do everything as everything is much more accessible. Plus you never have to worry about reaching in the tank to get out a pump, while your frogs escape. You also dont have to worry about cords coming out of the tank.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

So basically the "top layer" of the water in the false bottom will just skim off into the drain until it is just below the rim of the bulkhead. And then i would need a lets say 4ft head pump to get the water up to the top of the tank and back down the waterfall...


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

sorry to hijack on the thread, but I'm curious about this plumbing set up also. Does anyone recommend a pump (specifically, brand/model) that can act as a stable sump pump. Basically something that's strong enough to push the water through.
Thanks.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

For a pump recommendation that is a tough call. You really don't need much to feed a waterfall, but that will limit your flow and consequentially cut down on the ability for you pump and circulation to maintain a temperature and good filtration throughout. I would say that the best way to do it would be to move about 250-500 gallons per hour, depending on tank size through your system. Obviously that will be one hell of a water fall, so I would and will design something to have to inlets into the tank. One in the false bottom and one in the waterfall inlet. I would have both these controlled by ball valves so that it is easy to gain the proper flow through each of the inlets. You could easily restrict the flow enough in the false bottom to push the correct about of water through the waterfall. If you flow was too great every restrict just the waterfall.


this way you have some good flow, for temperature maintainence, and plenty of flow for however much filtration you desire. As for a good pump, anything except a rio that will deliver the correct about of water at whatever your head pressure is. Rios are notorious for failing under head pressure and leaking a toxic goo throughout the water. This could kill frogs, more that not it will just foul your tank/room/house with a godaweful electical fire smell. 

HTH


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Do you mean 2 pumps or to split the outflow line?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

1 pump and yes split it into two ball valves then two places it goes into the tank. I have used this of fish tanks and it works well.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

One light pressure will go to the waterfall, and then the second higher outflow would go where? Just back into the falsebottom?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

yeah. It circulates the water to keep it warm if heat and filtered. If you don't have much flow through a false bottom it will get cool and underfiltered/stagnant.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

So where would the water enter the falsebottom again? through another bulkhead?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

yup three bulkheads in all for the water


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well 2 if i had the waterfall line go over the top...


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well so far i have come up with this plan



I'm not sure if the water divider is necessary...but i want to keep the water which will be used in the pond area clean and filtered for the frogs/tads. I would also rather have the misting system and the waterfall split from the one sump pump...any ideas or prior experiences with something like this?

-Luke


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

The design looks good, but I would definitely house the waterfall pump in the sump. The sump would be much easier to access then inside the tank. You will need to clean the intake sponge fairly often on the pump.

Tim


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

It looks good with one exception. Your misting system is going to get clogged all the time. It takes almost nothing to clog the mister heads. I would have a seperate reservior that that pump gets water from.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

How about this...I split the waterfall line to decrease the pressure and to filter sump water and gave the mister it's own reservior. Waterfall could use circulating treated tap water, and mister could use distilled water to avoid mineral build up. Heater will heat both water reserviors also. Waterfall pump has split line to decrease pressure and do some extra filtration (not sure if this will be needed) and a ball valve to adjust waterfall output.
Any comments or suggestions for this idea?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Thats a bit better. The really isn't any reason to have your misting reservoir in your sump. Plus if you using a decent pump to run your misters almost all are not submersible. You would have to drill through the glass, not to easy especially compared to drilling a plastic bucket. 
One more thing, add a ball valve at the end of that split on your return. All your pressure will go out that end, not through your waterfall. 

HTH


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I'm not so sure about pumps yet...i've been looking at several pond pumps so far, comparing head hight and gph flows and such. I didn't see any NON-submersible pumps though...i'm going to be DIY misting system and was thinking of getting a "quiet one" or mag pump...what do you think?


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2004)

Most of the waterfall or pond pumps dont have enough pressure to run a misting system. One thing you may want to look at is using a cars winshield washer pump. I am not sure how many misting nozzels the will run but should be able to run at least 2. If you want to check you just hook a missting nozzel up to your washer fluid line at the wipers and try it. The pumps are about 15 dollars a peice then you will need a 12 volt adapter to run it. Compared to the cost of most mistting pumps this is cheaper.

Mike P.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well asides from the junior mister systems and rainmakers, what pumps have people been using to power their misting systems? How much psi is needed?

Also, how much gph is a good amount to have coming over the waterfall? Something in between trickling and flowing...

-Luke


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

For your misting pump, its not worth skimping on a pump. You'll end up buying the real deal eventually, don't waste money now. You need at least 50psi to run a decent system. This is a good size tank and will need about 4-6 heads to get some good mist flowing. 
A windshield washer pump will work, just not too well. They get hot, real hot, if you have that in a sump it will screw with you temps all the time.
The same pumps that big apple and rainmakers are the way to go. Talk to Marty on this board, he is getting some good pumps for his systems. They are external and the way to go. They are easy to plumb into a bucket through a bulkhead. 

for your waterfall you don't need much, which is why I recommended having another place where your pump would push water too, into the false bottom. About 100 GPH is enough for most waterfalls depending on size and style. 100 gph isn't really enough to maintain temp for your heater.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I've been thinking about the water feature for this tank. Most likely the "pond" will be the same depth as the rest of the water underneath the false bottom. I'm not too sure, but i'm guessing that water will get kinda dirty after sitting there for a while...so i have been thinking how to resolve this for the water feature. Should i seperate the water feature from the rest of the tank with a glass divider? Add in a fine netting surrounding the water feature so debris doesn't mix with the "pond" water? Any ideas about this?


Also, tap for waterfall and distilled for misting good idea?

-Luke


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Dirty water is exactly why I have recommended plumbing another return from the sump into the false bottom. This will keep the flow going very well and keep that water cleaned out, at least as much as possible. If you run a return with enough flow water will never 'sit' there. If you filter the water this way, down in the sump all your water will be the same, clean, somewhat clear, and the same temperature. Depending on what you use for your false bottom you may or may not need netting. If your using eggcrate, yes use some netting. You don't want frogs somehow getting under your false bottom. If using leca, its probably not an ussue.

As for what kind of water to use, use reverse osmosis water for everything. I've read that distilled water is so depleted of nutrients it isn't really good to use. Don't know how much I'd worry about that, but there are better options IMO. Tap water will only lead to water spots. Any splashing from the water fall, or water from your frog after the pond onto the glass is going to leave water spots everywhere. Water spots are a pain to remove, I'd dodge tap water.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

So how does this work?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

A lot better. I would make two small changes however. Move the second return to the other side. You want flow from one side to the other, on that side your right side may become more stagnant. Secondly add a ball valve on that same return. You want full control.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

So basically the water would be pushed through the water feature are towards the bulkhead right?


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Well under the water feature. You have a false bottom and you will probably have space under something at that side of the tank. If you design it different, where you have no false bottom in the land part of the water feature then just put that second return as far from the bulkhead drain as possible, maximize flow and mixing of the water.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Well i'm plannign to have the waterfall empty into the water feature. I am planning to place somekind of fine netting around the water feature to minimize dirt and particles from entering the water feature from the false substrate water.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

If you build your waterfall before you put in the false bottom, say the waterfall would be the same with or without the false bottom, then no you couldn't plumb your second return under the waterfall.
However if you are building a 100% coverage (except the pond where the waterfall drains) false bottom, then where they rock structure is on the waterfall should have the false bottom aspect underneath it. This placement would allow the second return to flow water beneath it, maximizing flow.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Yes, that's what i'm thinking of doing. Having the waterfall empty on top of the false bottom and then flow stream-like into the pond. THis was the second outflow could be underneath the falsebottom/waterfall and push more water through.


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