# Please help- sick frog.



## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

I came home tonight, went to the frog room to check on the little guys and noticed one of my Patricias laying on the ground. I thought it was dead, but I gently lifted it out of the enclosure for a look and it was still alive. In my hands it almost seemed paralyzed and not limp or lifeless. It's breathing was slowed. I placed it into a small container and it struggled to lift itself up. After ten minutes or so it was able to take a few steps. Any idea what could be going on? I've had these frogs for about two months and got them from a very reputable source. The other frogs in the enclosure appear normal. I've not added anything to their enclosure since it was set up in October. Other frogs in the collection are acting normal.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

First off, frogs don't breathe through their throats. And also, are you dusting with vitamins and calcium? It could be a deficiency induced seizure.


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Yes I alternate between Repcal and Herptevite


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

You need to start feeding your frogs Calcium Plus by Repashy. The vitamin A in the vitamins you use is not processed by frogs. Repashy has a different vitamin A source that is absorbed by the frogs. That may be a big part of the problem


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

jeeperrs said:


> You need to start feeding your frogs Calcium Plus by Repashy. The vitamin A in the vitamins you use is not processed by frogs. Repashy has a different vitamin A source that is absorbed by the frogs. That may be a big part of the problem



Then how did Darts survive in captivity before Repashy came out with his supplements?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

jeffr said:


> Then how did Darts survive in captivity before Repashy came out with his supplements?


I am not here to speculate about the past but to say what is an accepted practice for today. Ed and others have numerous posts on the subject about Vitamin A deficiency and how herptivite does not have the correct Vitamin A source for frogs. You can agree or disagree but I don't think anyone knows why some lived in the past.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

jeeperrs said:


> You can agree or disagree but I don't think anyone knows why some lived in the past.


"Some" did not live, almost all lived. The symptoms of vitamin A deficiency are almost always materialize as reproductive issues with eggs. Although not out of the realm of possibility, I would not suspect a vitamin deficiency at this point. More likley is exposure to something, or a possible bacterial infection. Has you house been experiencing abnormally low temps repeatedly at night?  Do you handle your frogs? Do you EVER spray aerosol sprays in the same room as your frogs? Have you changed anything in your frogs routine? What temps are they being kept at? Are they skinny or fat? We need more details to be able to even take a guess at the cause. Do a search on amphibian ringers solution. It may help depending on the cause. But it shouldnt hurt.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I got this recipe from a post by Ed somewhere. 


> Amphibian Ringer's is made by thoroughly mixing the following in one liter of distilled/reverse osmosis or deionized water:
> - Sodium chloride (NaCl) 6.6 grams
> - Potassium chloride (KCl) 0.15 grams
> - Calcium chloride (CaCl2) 0.15 grams
> - Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) 0.2 grams


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

It also depends on species and individuals. I have raised healthy tinc froglets when the parents were raised on the old Herptivite / Rep cal formula, but I had spindly leg with all my mantellas until I changed it to retinol containing supplement. However, I had a male tinc who I couldn't figure out what was wrong with him-- took a year of TLC to get him back in shape. He didn't seem to gain any weight or increase in appetite until I started using a retinol containing supplement. He's not nearly as bold as my other tincs and he's more finicky, but his weight and health are excellent.

Also, as Kevin Wright mentioned in an old post, a lot of health problems that we think are from parasitic outbreaks or something else are really the result of vitamin A deficiency. 

But back to the original concern-- if you haven't done it already, quarantine the individual, monitor carefully for behavioral changes, and get a fecal done if possible.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I could be wrong, but is it possible that this is a case of CO2 poisoning or asphyxiation?

I say that bc the OP stated it was not moving until it was removed from the viv.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Sent from my Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk 2


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> First off, frogs don't breathe through their throats.


You may want to look up "buccal pump"... and modify that statement.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeffr said:


> Then how did Darts survive in captivity before Repashy came out with his supplements?


You mean by getting by with chronic deficiencies of vitamin A? For some reason people keep making the assumption that the main issues with vitamin A deficiency are things like poor success reproductively when in reality that is a sign of a much greater deficiency... oddly enough chronic signs such as levels of squamous metaplasia are well documented in anurans for a long time..however this can only be determined on necropsy with histopathology.. something the hobby has a very poor track record in doing (unlike zoos)... 

The current evidence is that anurans including dendrobatids are either very poor at converting beta carotene to vitamin A or do not convert it at all... much like felines.. 

Now this has only touched on your comment tangentially.. but we need to then look more closely at anuran metabolism of carotneoids.. for example, tadpole are able to metabolize differnet caroteneoids into other isomers of vitamin A including astaxanthin...in adult anurans this only occurs in the eyes... Studies done on Wyoming toads in Zoo collections have demonstrated that there can be sufficient vitamin A stores from pre-metamorphosis to hold the frog over until it is more than a year of age... 
Frogs can also metabolize other carotenoids such as lutein, and beta cryptoaxanthin into vitamin A... and these can be aquired and stored as sources via ingestion of algae (as tadpoles) or plant matter via the digestive tract of crickets.... 

And as for how they did before we started offering them preformed vitamin A, we can look at the success rate of various frogs in the hobby in general.... there were a lot of poor track records including a lot of signs of severe deficiency such as spindly leg.... mortality of frogs was pretty high... and was often hidden through the aquisition of new frogs via more recent imports.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> "Some" did not live, almost all lived. The symptoms of vitamin A deficiency are almost always materialize as reproductive issues with eggs. Although not out of the realm of possibility, I would not suspect a vitamin deficiency at this point. More likley is exposure to something, or a possible bacterial infection. Has you house been experiencing abnormally low temps repeatedly at night? Do you handle your frogs? Do you EVER spray aerosol sprays in the same room as your frogs? Have you changed anything in your frogs routine? What temps are they being kept at? Are they skinny or fat? We need more details to be able to even take a guess at the cause. Do a search on amphibian ringers solution. It may help depending on the cause. But it shouldnt hurt.


If it was due to exposure then the other frogs in the tank should be showing signs of symptoms if it was a toxin... 

Nothing in the discussion so far rules out insufficient vitamin D3, calcium or even a deficiency of some of the B vitamins... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> The symptoms of vitamin A deficiency are almost always materialize as reproductive issues with eggs.


Okay, this is not true in the least.... Actually long before it shows up as issues with reproduction it can be detected on necropsy as patches of squamous metaplasia..... 

As for the "most lived" comment... I'm going to point to to the thousands of frogs imported most of which absolutely did not live..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

pdfCrazy said:


> The symptoms of vitamin A deficiency are almost always materialize as reproductive issues with eggs.


You might want to research "Short Tongue Syndrome", what it really is, and what causes it.


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

Tony - it might also be useful if you could take a picture of your enclosure and some of your frogs. If there is something off, someone might spot it and be able to help you fix it before you have problems with another frog. What size enclosure are they in? How many frogs are in there? 

I'm really sorry that you are having a problem and hope you get it figured out soon.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Hey, I'm really sorry to hear about your frog...Most of us have been there at some point.

Lets start out a little simpler...

What else was in the enclosure? (Species, quantity, ages, sexes)


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. 

The frogs are hosed in a group of three. All acquired at the same time from the same reputable breeder. The other two frogs look and act normal. 

The enclosure has a glass top with a screen vent for ventilation. I can't rule out asphyxiation 100%, but I'm doubtful because the other frogs are fine.

The enclosure has a large fern and another common terrarium plant of which I can't remember the name. Nothing has been added since October when I initially set up the enclosure. At that time the plants had been bleached, repotted, rinsed several times and the roots were flushed several times to eliminate any chemicals. I had them for about eight weeks before setting up the vivarium. 

Temperatures during the day are 74*f and drop to 72-73* during the night. This is monitored electonically 24x7 and logged automatically so I can review the history. The temperature never dropped below 72*.


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Here are a few photos of other frogs in my collection. Honestly, this one patricia in question is the only frog exhibiting any signs that something is awry. Please have a look and see if you see any signs which I may be overlooking. 

Thanks again.


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

This is a photo of two of the three Patricias from the group. Not sure if the one in question is pictured or not, but this was taken a few weeks ago. I should mention that the frogs morphed in early August. 

Overnight I placed the sick frog into a Sterilite shoe box with a thin layer of substrate and some leaf litter. I checked on it this morning and its condition hasn't changed. It can move around a bit better, but it still seems lethargic. 

I spoke with the breeder last night at length, and they suggested that it could be malnourished as a result of intimidation or agression from the other frogs in the group.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

But.....and correct me if I am wrong, neurological symtoms stemming from vitamin a deficiency (such as short tongue syndrome) do not usually show up untill later on, not in such young froglets. To the OP, did you witness any odd behavior such as a difficulty feeding, any awkward/strange behaviors at all?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> But.....and correct me if I am wrong, neurological symtoms stemming from vitamin a deficiency (such as short tongue syndrome) do not usually show up untill later on, not in such young froglets. To the OP, did you witness any odd behavior such as a difficulty feeding, any awkward/strange behaviors at all?


Short tongue is not neurological. It is due to a change in the mucous producing cells on the tongue (and elsewhere in the frog including the digestive tract) so they stop producing mucous. The tongue works fine and if you observe feeding behavior you can often see the prey item rocking or moving from being impacted by the tongue..... This can be harder to see in frogs that lunge and grab prey with thier mouth directly and use thier front legs to help capture the prey item... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Ed said:


> Okay, this is not true in the least.... Actually long before it shows up as issues with reproduction it can be detected on necropsy as patches of squamous metaplasia.....
> 
> As for the "most lived" comment... I'm going to point to to the thousands of frogs imported most of which absolutely did not live.....
> 
> ...


And I guess what I was trying to say here but didnt well enough, is that these are symptoms that are most apparent to us as keepers, externally and visually. Absolutly the effects go much further than that. I cannot look at a living frog and go.....yeah, that frog has patches of squamous metaplasia....

And as for the "most lived" comment......yes, many hundreds of thousands of frogs died....and they still do today. But that was due to many factors including wholesalers that care about quantity not quality, a lack of knowledge about simple enviromental requirements, and uneducated buyers picking up darts from pet stores that sell hamsters and informing customers they can keep them in a 10 gallon tank with just spagnum moss and plastic suction cup plants. The deathe of hundreds of thousands of imported frogs had very little to do with vitamin deficiency, which is what the subject thread is about.


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

pdfCrazy said:


> To the OP, did you witness any odd behavior such as a difficulty feeding, any awkward/strange behaviors at all?


Behavior was normal the day before. I did not see anything out of the ordinary until last night when I came home. 

No aerosols or chemicals are used in our home because of my aquariums. No air fresheners or anything like that which could precipitate out and affect any of my animals. I use organic cleaning agents for almost everything in my home. Also, if this were the case I'd think that other frogs in my care would show some signs of stress instead of one individual. 

I'm leaning toward agression and/or intimidation from its tankmates.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> And I guess what I was trying to say here but didnt well enough, is that these are symptoms that are most apparent to us as keepers, externally and visually. Absolutly the effects go much further than that. I cannot look at a living frog and go.....yeah, that frog has patches of squamous metaplasia....


This does not excuse making absolutist statements on how it presents itself as that was totally incorrect. ... and the first area it generally impacts is the immune system which renders the frogs(s) at greater risk of death... 



pdfCrazy said:


> And as for the "most lived" comment......yes, many hundreds of thousands of frogs died....and they still do today. But that was due to many factors including wholesalers that care about quantity not quality, a lack of knowledge about simple enviromental requirements, and uneducated buyers picking up darts from pet stores that sell hamsters and informing customers they can keep them in a 10 gallon tank with just spagnum moss and plastic suction cup plants. The deathe of hundreds of thousands of imported frogs had very little to do with vitamin deficiency, which is what the subject thread is about.


Let us go directly to the bottom line of the physiology... Properly supplemented animals are able to better adapt to stress, thier immune systems function bettter so they can resist diseases and parasites better, they are able to breath better (vitamin A deficiency impacts respiration), can resist bacterial penetration of the intestinal lining (due to changes in the goblet cells), and finally the ability to absorb some nutrients.. so before you can point the finger at housing and other more macro husbandry issues we can look at vitamin A deficiency in making the frogs more susceptiable to death from those causes... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> Let us go directly to the bottom line of the physiology... Properly supplemented animals are able to better adapt to stress, thier immune systems function bettter so they can resist diseases and parasites better, they are able to breath better (vitamin A deficiency impacts respiration), can resist bacterial penetration of the intestinal lining (due to changes in the goblet cells), and finally the ability to absorb some nutrients.. so before you can point the finger at housing and other more macro husbandry issues we can look at vitamin A deficiency in making the frogs more susceptiable to death from those causes...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


This takes me back to my initial suggestion on page one of this post. You may want to reconsider the vitamins you use. I would recommend Calcium Plus by Repashy (it contains the usable form of Vitamin A), or add Vitamin A plus by Repash to your current vitamin/calcium supplements. If it is a vitamin A deficiency, you may possibly save the frog (that is not a promise). Even if the frog is not having a vitamin A deficiency, it will be best for the long term health of all the frogs you are caring for. Please keep us posted on how your frog is doing.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

This would make the frogs around 4-5 mo old; plenty of time to display symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency in my opinion. (If this indeed the case).


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

jeeperrs said:


> If it is a vitamin A deficiency, you may possibly save the frog (that is not a promise). Even if the frog is not having a vitamin A deficiency, it will be best for the long term health of all the frogs you are caring for. Please keep us posted on how your frog is doing.


Just to add another reference:

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/navc/2006/SAE/646.pdf?LA=1

Hypovitaminosis A in captive amphibians is likely due
to the use of inappropriate vitamin supplements or
supplements that have been stored improperly or have
expired. Many pet owners believe apocryphal Internet
postings about vitamin A being poisonous and then
intentionally feed inappropriate diets. It seems likely that
there are species-specific dietary needs for vitamin A.
*Vitamin A supplementation is recommended for any
clinically ill amphibian.*


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Thank you all for the posts. I have ordered Repashy supplements and will use them from here on out. I will also update the thread with the status of my sick frog.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony83 said:


> Thank you all for the posts. I have ordered Repashy supplements and will use them from here on out. I will also update the thread with the status of my sick frog.


If the frog isn't eating how do you plan to get the vitamins into it? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Ed said:


> If the frog isn't eating how do you plan to get the vitamins into it?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I didn't imply that this frog had stopped eating or that I intended to somehow supplement the sick frog. I said I would be switching to the Repashy supplements based on the info that I've received in this thread. I added some springtails and flies to the isolation container this morning. When I get home tonight I'll know if it's eating or not. If it is, then I will dust the flies that it's fed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony83 said:


> I didn't imply that this frog had stopped eating or that I intended to somehow supplement the sick frog. I said I would be switching to the Repashy supplements based on the info that I've received in this thread. I added some springtails and flies to the isolation container this morning. When I get home tonight I'll know if it's eating or not. If it is, then I will dust the flies that it's fed.


It isn't uncommon (very common actually) for a frog with the symptoms you described to not be feeding or for one to stop feeding for at least one or more days after being moved to a new enclosure. The idea of my question was to get you to think about the possibility... 

I'm going to again bring up that the symptoms are not out of the ordinary for D3/calcium deficiencies or some of the B vitamin deficiencies.. both of these can be caused by supplements that are too old or ones that have been kept in an area where there is extra humidity and heat (like that found near frog enclosures)... 

You may want to consider getting some calcium glubionate and diluting it to 2.2%.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## cpalmerpdx (Dec 3, 2012)

How is your frog doing? I hope all is well.


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## Tony83 (Nov 11, 2012)

Just popped in to post an update. The frog lost more weight before things started to get better. After about a week and a half in isolation it began to eat more and more. I fed it a good amount of springtails and small melanogasters each day. It has put on a good bit of weight, very close to what I would consider 'normal'. I've narrowed down the cause to agression from the other frogs in the enclosure. They are approaching the age where they can be sexed and all three members of the trio appear to be males. That combined with the fact that the frog in question got better as soon as it was isolated lead me to believe that agression was the cause. I'm not going to introduce this frog back into the group, but will try to pair it with a female and maintain two groups instead.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Hmmmm, I tend to agree. Someone had mentioned these were 4-5 months old, but I dont think it was you. Tincs typically become sexually mature around 10-14 months old. Up until that point your usally alright in groups to raise them. As I totally support the use of repashy products and Vit A, I was wondering if you had begun using it, and whether that might have played a role in this frogs recovery.


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