# Possible ways to create glowing FX for LIVE moss...



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ok so I've mentioned this idea in a couple of threads and someone asked me exactly what I had in mind, they caught me in a sharing mood so I decided to divulge one of my secret theories/ideas for vivs (yes there are more still secret  ) So here it is, feel free to give some of these methods a shot and report back to me as I'm to broke to try them on my own right now and would like to know what works best  (Ok so this isn't entirely unselfish) 

Here we go down the rabbit hole....



Pumilo said:


> So what is this glowing live moss idea?
> Doug


Oh you want me to give away one of my secrets? Hmm....Ok what the hell. So I have a couple ideas actually how to achieve this. First and one of the most simple is plastic mesh. I've seen a green mesh for aquascaping but now can't cant find it  But it looked like it might be black light reactive as many plastics are. This laid down with the moss growing through it and a black light over it may produce a glow effect. The moss itself should illuminate too, since it would be like shining a light through a leaf, it turns the light green, basically acting like a filter. If I can't find an actual green mesh that glows under UV there are plenty of different types of mesh out there that could be dipped in glow in the dark paint and laid down with the moss growing through it. What I don't know is if enough UV will penetrate the moss layer to activate the mesh glow, or if the glow from actual glow in the dark paint will be enough to shine through the moss. As most glow in the dark stuff actually reacts to black light also, a combo of the 2 may achieve the desired result if one on its own won't. Need to test it of course. 

I have a couple of micro liverworts that grow extremely thin compared to many mosses and will damn near grow on anything moist, even glass so I think they may be well suited for this. Which actually brings me to another possible idea. Areas of glass or acrylic coated in a thin layer of sphagnum moss, with my micro liverworts planted on it then illuminated from underneath with LEDs (to keep down heat). It might even be as simple as sealing off some green or white LED Christmas lights so the moisture doesn't get to them and burying them throughout the substrate just under the surface.

Then the last idea is this....Fiber optic cloth 









(sample pack)
http://www.lumigram.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=89 

Basically replacing the battery modules with low voltage ac/dc adapters, sealing off the electronics (If I needed) and laying down the cloth in areas I want to glow, planting the micro liverworts on top of it. The cloth will be a moist surface for the liverworts to grow on directly so this may be the most promising method. It may even be possible to shred the cloth without destroying the fiber optics to make a version of the mesh idea where the moss grows through the shredded areas mostly obscuring any cloth (if it won't actually grow on the cloth). 

If the cloth itself degrades, assuming it doesn't do so in a harmful manner then all the better, I'm left with super thin fiber optic strands for the moss to grow around  I think I can actually get fiber optic cable and lighting modules that illuminate along the length of the cable, not just at the tips as I've seen this for sale online in the past. So that may be another way to go instead of the cloth. 

Anyways here is the original thread this popped up in in case anyone is interested in the background. There is also a blue print (with graphics!) and some other viv ideas discussed in this thread. Feel free to chime in...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ix-will-not-leach-tannins-into-viv-water.html


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So I'll say it again...cuz it cracks ME up.
Trippy stuff, Dave! Gonna have to slip your frogs some shrooms and put on some Hendrix when that's done!
Doug


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dave sometimes, you make me just shake my head.. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

LoL...thanks guys. ....I think


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

I like the creativity but not my taste...though I love Avatar. Dont stop brain storming...When I see the glow in the dark plants in a viv...Ill copy that. I prefer natural. Love reading these post though.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

rcteem said:


> I like the creativity but not my taste...though I love Avatar. Dont stop brain storming...When I see the glow in the dark plants in a viv...Ill copy that. I prefer natural. Love reading these post though.


Its funny you say that I had just written this reply in the other thread before reading your reply here....



Dendro Dave said:


> Ya, sounds like a good time  I'm also thinking about some ways to "augment" other living plants, such as slipping thin fiber optic strands into fleshy stemmed plants to illuminate them from the inside....might be kinda controversial though, and I'm not sure they'd survive, but hell plants grow around golf balls and through barbed wire fences so maybe it will work? Less invasive ways would be preferable if I can get a nice effect. Maybe some multi colored spot lighting at night, or wrapping them in fiber optic strands or something along those lines.


GFP or bio-luminescent plants would be preferable but so far I can't get stemcellular to make me any, at least not that I could afford  He won't do a frog either 
But I get what you are saying about natural, and tend to agree. I wan't these vivs to look pretty natural during the day, maybe idealized versions of "natural"...but still. These more outrageous effects are mostly designed to bring something to the night, when our vivs are usually dark or just have moon lighting. Still though I plan on having them be of limited duration, giving the frogs a dark period the majority of the night. I'm not ready to sacrifice their health or sanity by tripping them out the whole night. I think the risk is pretty minimal if any when done for a short duration.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Its funny you say that I had just written this reply in the other thread before reading your reply here....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you ever find the site for the glow in the dark mushroom spores??? Thats what Im looking for as My lamasi tank has mushrooms all over


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

rcteem said:


> Did you ever find the site for the glow in the dark mushroom spores??? Thats what Im looking for as My lamasi tank has mushrooms all over


Here is the main one, a search for "novelty mushroom spores", will probably yeild more...
The Spore Works :: Specialty Mushroom Cultures :: Liquid Culture Syringes

You want the Omphalotus nidiformis : Ghost Fungus Culture Syringe and/or Panellus stipticus : Luminescent Panellus Culture Syringe. I personally plan on trying both when I can afford it and get around to it 

It might be worth adding some woods to inoculate known to be favorable for mushroom culture(even if they eventually disintegrate in a viv), or adding wood chips from such woods just to increase chances of success. Possibly even starting a sterile culture and letting it go for awhile then introducing it to the viv once it has a good head start so springs or something don't decimate it before it can get a foot hold.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I tried to find the side glow fiber optic cable I mentioned. Found it but didn't realize the light drivers were so expensive but forgot they had another product that accomplishes the same thing, but maybe not as bright.

They do have a fairly affordable single color light driver that will work with the true sideglow fiber optic cable. This cable comes in diameters as small as 3mm...
Novabright Luxeon Driver








That option seems most likely to work, but would be much more expensive then the one below. 

But the cheapest way to do something similar seems to be their "EL wire" or "Lightningwire" product. "Lightningwire is made of a lightweight flexible vinyl tubing with a thin phosphorous coated core wire which illuminates". These cables come in diameters as small as 1mm....
EL Wire and electroluminescent wire









At 1mm or 3mm...the cables should be small enough to stake into the ground of the viv possibly in a spiraling design and plant moss around while remaining invisible. That light, especially as it shines through the liverwort "leaves" as the plant grows around the cable should give the illusion of glowing moss.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Dave, I love it when you get on these crazy brainstorming kicks. Ever since the glow in the dark desert tank Ive always watched threads you start.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Okapi said:


> Dave, I love it when you get on these crazy brainstorming kicks. Ever since the glow in the dark desert tank Ive always watched threads you start.


Thanks man, just trying to do a little something to add to the hobby.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Speaking of that vivarium, what ever happened to it? I remember you said a while back that the lights were heating up the 75 gallon above it and that you might move it to another location so that you can use it. And how did the leopard gecko community like it? I remember you started a thread over on geckoforums but I havent been on there in forever


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Okapi said:


> Speaking of that vivarium, what ever happened to it? I remember you said a while back that the lights were heating up the 75 gallon above it and that you might move it to another location so that you can use it. And how did the leopard gecko community like it? I remember you started a thread over on geckoforums but I havent been on there in forever


ya its still shutdown, lights off and everything dead for almost a year. I haven't moved it yet...its a heavy beast. Once I clean my place I'll have room to work, and will probably drop it down a notch on the shelf, which should give me an extra 6 inches between them. The leo community seemed interested and mostly supportive, a few thought it might be to moist but I think the fans, screen top and dehumidifier I had planned would have kept that under control. The pics were all taken before the moss had a chance to die, and it looked very green for a leo tank and I think a few people had trouble wrapping their heads around that even though I repeatedly said the moss was meant to die and it will not look so green and moist once that happens. 

When I fire it back up I'll probably take some grey paint and paint the messy spots where I got the glow sand and silicone on the rocks to make the glowing lines look nicer and not so ghetto. Or I'll just scrape the excess off. But I'm seriously considering restarting and planting it as a tropical viv. Would be cool to have one of the few true working desert vivs but would also be nice to have another big tank ready for a group of darts  ....Which I like much more then leos or most anything else that would be suitable for the tank as a desert viv. I'm pretty confident it would have worked as intended, so its kinda like, "ok did that...proved it to myself anyways", but now I'm out a 40B's worth of dart space


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dave, that's all well and good. But I wanna know how you're going to make your frogs glow!
Doug


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Dave, that's all well and good. But I wanna know how you're going to make your frogs glow!
> Doug


LOL that will probably require a geneticist that works real cheap  Stemcellular kinda hinted that he could do it but that I'd never be able to afford it ;( 

I don't know though, the biohacking or DIY genetic engineering hobbies are starting to take off so who knows maybe I'll find myself with a new hobby...and some new frogs


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't know, Dave. Wouldn't that be worse than (looking left, then right...whispering) Line Breeding?
Doug


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> I don't know, Dave. Wouldn't that be worse than (looking left, then right...whispering) Line Breeding?
> Doug


You know I've been thinking about that and I'm not sure. Of course there are ethical issues with transgenic animals in general and in the pet trade specifically. But one reason Line breeding is frowned upon is because often we already have a very limited genetic pool to work with, and inbreeding on purpose screws it up even further and another reason is because those animals that didn't overtly express different characteristics could easily fly under the radar and get mixed with other frogs. 

With a GFP or bio-lumenescent animal especially if you work with a species that has a pretty good gene pool going, it seems like it would be pretty easy to keep everything separate, in fact the nature of the animal itself would probably lend itself to that. People aren't likely to try and pass off a glowing frog as a non glowing frog, and if they did it would be easy to spot...literally. New people aren't likely to buy them and not know what they are getting either, as the glow effect would be one of the main selling points and again even if somehow someone got one without knowing, they'd probably find out soon, or it would at least be easy to test for with a black light. 

The only real ethical concern I personally have (that I can think of right off hand just now) assuming the techniques used have an extremely low case of side effects on adult animals, and death rates of young developing transgenic animals aren't significantly higher in the later stages of development is with germ line animals that express unnatural traits being released back into the wild or here as an invasive species. Darts can only survive in a few pockets of the US, and making sure you didn't release a glowing dart into the wild would be easy enough, and not very likely since you'd have to smuggle it back to S. America. The worries would be the FL area and Hawaii, which could probably be managed with peer pressure and regulations. 

I think these types of animals could be kept separate much easier then hybrids and line bred animals and would come with minimal risk to the hobby. Of course there will be those who make the playing god argument, have a real problem with aborted eggs that fail to develop and just generally are not on board with the idea of genetic engineering. I'm not really one of those people. The playing god argument doesn't hold much water for me, since we've been doing it since we started farming, and domesticating animals thousands of years ago. That ship has sailed...we just need to get better at it and do it more responsibly, (which could be where the argument against transgenic pets may find its strongest foundations). 

Glo-fish are already here, and I think other transgenic pets are inevitable whether some of us like it or not. Might as well start thinking about how we can direct and manipulate that coming transition so it has a minimal negative impact in the hobby. So I guess overall I lean toward being in favor of transgenic pets, but I have my reservations and am very open to counter arguments and ready to abandon that position if I find suitable reasons, and the risk to the transgenic animals, environment or other non transgenic animals is minimal (a level I find acceptable). I'm not exactly sure where I would draw that line right now though, and I am sure that regardless there will be some who don't like where I drew it....if/when I ever do.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Geez Dave, I was just making a joke. Now you made my brain hurt!
Doug


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Yeah i want to see evolve.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Geez Dave, I was just making a joke. Now you made my brain hurt!
> Doug


LoL, I know...and I'm sorry  ...But you brought up a valid issue, In fact I may copy this part over to a new thread. Is probably something we should all start talking about more.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> You know I've been thinking about that and I'm not sure. Of course there are ethical issues with transgenic animals in general and in the pet trade specifically. But one reason Line breeding is frowned upon is because often we already have a very limited genetic pool to work with, and inbreeding on purpose screws it up even further and another reason is because those animals that didn't overtly express different characteristics could easily fly under the radar and get mixed with other frogs.
> 
> With a GFP or bio-lumenescent animal especially if you work with a species that has a pretty good gene pool going, it seems like it would be pretty easy to keep everything separate, in fact the nature of the animal itself would probably lend itself to that. People aren't likely to try and pass off a glowing frog as a non glowing frog, and if they did it would be easy to spot...literally. New people aren't likely to buy them and not know what they are getting either, as the glow effect would be one of the main selling points and again even if somehow someone got one without knowing, they'd probably find out soon, or it would at least be easy to test for with a black light.
> 
> .


Hi Dave,

There are other potential things that could be tried as well in these sorts of scenarios. If you could influene the migration of the pigment cells during the development of the embryo, you could actually induce changes like having frogs that were gentically normal (and not carriers for genes like albinism) but are bilaterally divided as to pigmented/unpigmented... There is a good discussion of this in Amphibian Biology, The Integument, author/editor Heatwold. There was a short discussion on it at last night's MADS meeting between myself and Ray (stemcellular) 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> There are other potential things that could be tried as well in these sorts of scenarios. If you could influene the migration of the pigment cells during the development of the embryo, you could actually induce changes like having frogs that were gentically normal (and not carriers for genes like albinism) but are bilaterally divided as to pigmented/unpigmented... There is a good discussion of this in Amphibian Biology, The Integument, author/editor Heatwold. There was a short discussion on it at last night's MADS meeting between myself and Ray (stemcellular)
> 
> Ed


Hmm interesting. Is this different then how they manipulate gene expression with environmental factors in 2 cloned animals like calico cats so one is calico but the other is all brown even though they are genetic clones?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Hmm interesting. Is this different then how they manipulate gene expression with environmental factors in 2 cloned animals like calico cats so one is calico but the other is all brown even though they are genetic clones?


 
JohnC or Ray (stemcellular) could probably explain much better than I, but during development the pigment cells migrate from the nueral crest bilaterally. If you disrupt the cells from migrating down one side of the neural crest, one side develops normal coloration and the other doesn't. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> JohnC or Ray (stemcellular) could probably explain much better than I, but during development the pigment cells migrate from the nueral crest bilaterally. If you disrupt the cells from migrating down one side of the neural crest, one side develops normal coloration and the other doesn't.
> 
> Ed


Hmm probably beyond my means, and not sure how others in the hobby would feel about it but interesting stuff none the less


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> LoL, I know...and I'm sorry


OK, apology accepted...but you owe me 23 cents for an aspirin!
Oh, and put me down for a pair of half and half Varadero Imis when you perfect this!
Doug


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