# Excelsior Alternative?



## arkay

Hey all,

I don't know about you but I hate excelsior. Its a mess. So last time I had to buy fruit flies the container came with this plastic type stuff in which the flies seemed to thrive and breed well. After I finished my stash of excelsior I decided to give the plastic stuff a try. Its been 3 weeks now and no larva. Wondering if anyone else has tried anything other than Excelsior and how their luck was.

Here's a link to an image of the plastic stuff
http://www.buyfruitflies.com/images_culturekit.html


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## Brian317

Looks like egg crate to me, the plastic stuff. I've only used excelsior. I've seen people use alot of different stuff in their cultures...coffee filters are also a good alternative.


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## Gnarly

I use coffee filters, they are inexpensive but they can get pretty gross. I've also used scraps of the fiberglass screen that I use as a substrate divider when I have some laying around, it's nice because it doesn't get soggy.


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## arkay

Its more like temporary plastic fencing. I got a roll from Home Depot in the fencing area and cut it up into squares that fit. Much less messy and easier to store.


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## MeiKVR6

That black mesh looks like this stuff...

We tried different types of excelsior, coffee filters, and that black mesh from lowes... Excelsior (although sometimes dusty) proved to be the best bang for our buck in my experience.


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## Blue_Pumilio

Lots of people use coffee filters, flash cards, etc.


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## dartfanatic

I like excelsior but if I run out I generally use coffee filters and this plastic grid material used for needle pointing that I find at Joanne Fabrics or Michaels craft shop. I just cut it around 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" tall and put a piece in the center and some coffee filters on each opposing side. Works almost as good. Plus they're cheap, they're like $0.50 ea for a 16" x 8" sheet.


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## varanoid

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Lots of people use coffee filters, flash cards, etc.


Flash cards really?

I have purchased cultures that had wax paper in them. Didn't like it. I actually prefer coffee filters even if they sometimes do get a little soggy, but thats just me.


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## Dendroguy

Paper lunch bags! They are inexpensive and much sturdier than coffee filters.

D


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## pl259

Been there, done that. Now I only use coffee filters. I also only have to make 10 cultures a week. 

The filters are always clean, no risk of mold or other issues. They also help in regulating moisture and humidity over the life of the culture.


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## Ripley71

Or I've seen the plastic needlepoint cross stitch panel when I have purchased ff. I've experimented w/ coffee filters, which don't hold up, & will try the paper plate option next. I know that has worked for another member here.


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## frogandtoad

I have been using Raffia that I buy at Michael's arts and crafts. It is basically a stiff dried grass. 

The fruit fly yields with it have been ridiculous compared to when I was using excelsior. I think it is because the wide blades of grass give the larvae extra places to attach to, besides the side walls of the container. When using thin excelsior, larvae cannot attach to it. I have to add that I use NE Herp Fruit Fly Mix for my cultures.

I have noticed cultures won't last quite as long as with excelsior, because the grass will start to get saturated and degrade, but the initial booms of flies are much much larger. After about a week of feeding out from a culture I just switch to the next culture anyways so it's not a big deal to me.

These are just my observations from using both methods for a long time. I personally will not ever go back to excelsior after seeing the difference raffia made in my cultures.


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## pl259

Regarding coffee filter stiffness...I use 8 filters per culture. I take two at a time and roll each pair up into a cone, fold the tip end up a little, and end up with four coffee filter cones. 

When putting them in the media, I first place two stirrers, crossed to divide the culture into two halves. I then put two cones in each half. The stirrers help prevent the filters from collapsing. 

The stirrers and filter cones are all pushed deep into the culture. This helps prevent them from falling out.

Another thing I do is wait to put the stirrers and filter cones in. I wait one week for Mels and two weeks for hydei.

Hope that all makes sense.


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## Brian317

frogandtoad - Do you just clump the raffia like excelsior and throw it in? Also, do you happen to know the price difference between the two? Just curious off the top of your head...I would like to try it out with some of my cultures. Thanks


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## Gamble

Another thing you can try, which I & others ive suggested it to & have had good success is toilet paper rolls (cardboard insert).


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## whitethumb

im trying to picture this in my head... would you happen to have a pic? or 2? that would be great. 



pl259 said:


> Regarding coffee filter stiffness...I use 8 filters per culture. I take two at a time and roll each pair up into a cone, fold the tip end up a little, and end up with four coffee filter cones.
> 
> When putting them in the media, I first place two stirrers, crossed to divide the culture into two halves. I then put two cones in each half. The stirrers help prevent the filters from collapsing.
> 
> The stirrers and filter cones are all pushed deep into the culture. This helps prevent them from falling out.
> 
> Another thing I do is wait to put the stirrers and filter cones in. I wait one week for Mels and two weeks for hydei.
> 
> Hope that all makes sense.


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## reptiles12

i litterally put in half a bananna and ONE drop of vinegar per bananna and it works for me as well as anything else


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## bassistjon112

I use 5 coffee filters folded in quarters, so they much studier. I also push them in with a butterknife to get them to the bottom. They work great for me, no mess and they last as long as the culture.


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## frogfreak

I use rafia as well for Hydei and unwaxed 6" paper plates for melao's.

A weeks worth. lol


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## nonliteral

frogfreak said:


> I use rafia as well for Hydei and unwaxed 6" paper plates for melao's.


Glenn, after you posted this last time I've been trying this (actually, I'm using 9" plates folded in quarters), and I like it way better than anything else I've tried to-date. Yields are way up too, compared to what I was getting excelsior or coffee filters on wingless melaos (the only ffs I culture).

Thanks, from both me and my overfed frogs!!!

One thing I notice is that the plates eventually do get saturated (much, much later than the coffee filters did), at which point they start collapsing and pretty much end up like the coffee filters. Have you tried waxed plates, or possibly even foam plates (readily available in bulk around here) and had bad results, or is this potentially worth a try?


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## frogandtoad

Brian317 said:


> frogandtoad - Do you just clump the raffia like excelsior and throw it in? Also, do you happen to know the price difference between the two? Just curious off the top of your head...I would like to try it out with some of my cultures. Thanks


I cut off a portion with scissors...enough to fill the cup. It is stiff almost like straw, so it will stand up vertically in the culture. Here is a picture of what the stuff looks like.









As far as price goes, it is pretty cheap. I buy it at Michael's, but they probably have something similar elsewhere. A long bundle I think is about $7. I buy three bundles at a time and they last for quite a while.


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## frogandtoad

Here is another picture of what it looks like.


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## frogfreak

nonliteral said:


> Glenn, after you posted this last time I've been trying this (actually, I'm using 9" plates folded in quarters), and I like it way better than anything else I've tried to-date. Yields are way up too, compared to what I was getting excelsior or coffee filters on wingless melaos (the only ffs I culture).
> 
> Thanks, from both me and my overfed frogs!!!
> 
> One thing I notice is that the plates eventually do get saturated (much, much later than the coffee filters did), at which point they start collapsing and pretty much end up like the coffee filters. Have you tried waxed plates, or possibly even foam plates (readily available in bulk around here) and had bad results, or is this potentially worth a try?


I played around with my water to media mix and was able to get it to the point where they don't get saturated. I like the fact that they take up some excess water. I've used plastic before and the cultures turned into a soupy mess. I think we need to add something that wicks water a bit to avoid that. Anything is worth a shot though.


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## nonliteral

Thanks Glenn! I'll try reducing my water a bit on today's cultures and see if that makes a difference.


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## radiata

Gnarly said:


> I use coffee filters, they are inexpensive but they can get pretty gross. I've also used scraps of the fiberglass screen that I use as a substrate divider when I have some laying around, it's nice because it doesn't get soggy.


I agree that coffee filters get a little gross, but I know of two dendro breeders who believe the paper filters are actually consumed by the FFs. At what age do you toss your FF cultures? I'm beginning to believe, along with the two aformentioned breeders, that FF cultures should be tossed after 4 weeks...


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## ChrisK

radiata said:


> I'm beginning to believe, along with the two aformentioned breeders, that FF cultures should be tossed after 4 weeks...


Yeah, keep them longer than that and you're going to get mites. 4 weeks, straight into the freezer then either recycle or throw them out.


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## crittercurt

I have not experimented much but I use Natural Brew coffee filters from Kmart and 90 percent of the time they hold up until the culture is dead. They are brown and much thicker then normal coffee filters. I just fold them in half twice and stick them in. I normally put 3 filters into each culture, the day after I make them and they are ready to go.

Just my 2 cents, Curtis


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## Turningdoc

I tried polyfill from old pillows. It was awesome for not dropping out of cup and no smell. It also boomed w about 1 million flies at initial emergence, but produced for about 2 days and stopped even w clearing booms of production so I considered it a fail, but was interesting experiment. Maybe someone else could pick it up and figure how to make produce longer.


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## Tinctoc

crittercurt said:


> I have not experimented much but I use Natural Brew coffee filters from Kmart and 90 percent of the time they hold up until the culture is dead. They are brown and much thicker then normal coffee filters. I just fold them in half twice and stick them in. I normally put 3 filters into each culture, the day after I make them and they are ready to go.
> 
> Just my 2 cents, Curtis


These are the same kind that I use and they are indeed much more rigid and hold up better. I get mine at walmart for very cheap.


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## sports_doc

I make 60 cx a week

Excelsior drove me nuts. All the scraps and dust and molding over. But this is still the best place to get it.

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-12434/Retail-Cushioning/25-lb-Fine-Excelsior-Undyed-Aspen


I went to recycling cardboard boxes.

http://www.fast-pack.com/bflute.html
http://www.uline.com/BL_1902/Corrugated-Wrap

[is an alternative]

I used to cut them up into nice 3x4 squares and stuff the cardboard into cx's, now I just rip the cardboard by hand, b/c it is faster.

I never put one cx atop another cx, as it leads to poor air circulation on the bottom and molding. Stagger them. 

The plastic options never really worked for me, and the last thing I want is more stuff to wash.

After reading this, I will experiment with Raffia, paper plates, natural filters.

http://raffiaonline.com/wholesale_raffia.html

Ive wanted to try this also
http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-6118/Crinkle-Paper/10-lb-Crinkle-Paper-Kraft


S


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## hylahill

I definitely prefer the excelsior over the filters, mainly due to the longevity issues.

I buy my excelsior in bulk and always get the coarse form, which, I believe, allows for far more surface for the larvae to attach to. Much better than the typical excelsior, IMO. Tends to be less of a mess as well, although that is all relative.

I do like these other suggestions and will try the paper plates and cardboard. I am always highly appreciative of those thinking outside the box!


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## Brian317

sports_doc said:


> After reading this, I will experiment with Raffia, paper plates, natural filters.
> 
> Raffia Online - Wholesale Raffia


Thanks for the link Shawn, I can order and make some bright red and green raffia cultures for the holidays 

But really, I will be trying raffia out as it looks interesting. Also will be setting up a culture with paper plates to see how it turns out.


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## Ed

radiata said:


> I agree that coffee filters get a little gross, but I know of two dendro breeders who believe the paper filters are actually consumed by the FFs.


It's already been established that D. melanogaster larva secrete enzymes that can degrade cellulose into the media (see Insectivory and social digestion inDrosophila - Springer) but we shouldn't underestimate the impact of the microbes in the media either... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

frogandtoad said:


> The fruit fly yields with it have been ridiculous compared to when I was using excelsior. I think it is because the wide blades of grass give the larvae extra places to attach to, besides the side walls of the container. When using thin excelsior, larvae cannot attach to it.


Use of substrates for pupation sites is controlled by a number of factors including light, distance from food source, use by other larvae and pH... The use of these sites by the larvae is under genetic controls... 

It is unlikely that different materials change the production of the culture by supplying pupation sites, (particularly since the larvae prefer to aggregate to pupate) instead it may influence production by preventing the adults from becoming trapped in the media during feeding and egg deposition. This would directly impact the number of eggs (and thus larvae) produced..... (as an example, see the Carolina Biological Supply Companies Drosophila manual...where they state the addition of the material to the cultures is to prevent the adults from becoming trapped)... 

For those interested in discussion on the choices of the larvae for pupation I suggest reading 
http://www.erin.utoronto.ca/~w3forage/Soko%20Site%20PDF/1980-2000/Genetic%20analysis%20of%20pupation%20distance%20in%20Drosophila%20melanogaster.%20Heredity.%201989.pdf

http://labs.biology.ucsd.edu/markow/documents/Light-dependentpupationsitebehaviorgenetics.pdf

http://www.utm.utoronto.ca/~w3forag...avior. Journal of Insect Physiology. 1985.pdf

http://www.biolbull.org/content/105/3/442.full.pdf (I have significant doubts that the larvae can't attach to "thin" excelsior...) 

Review: Thermal preference in Drosophila 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tricolor189

coffee filters but your better off using excelsior.


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## daswooten

I have been trying to find items that I could reuse when growing fruit flies (such as using glass mason jars that are easy to wash/sterilize). I finally found something that worked really well for me - a very open celled pond pre-filter (here). I cut it in half (so that I can use each one for two cultures) and push it into the culture media. The cells are open enough to allow the adult flies easy passage, but not so wide that they die in the media (as they can usually reach the foam to crawl out). For me, the melanogaster produce similarly to what I used to get from excelsior, but the hydei produce much better (and certainly better than some failed experiments - I think someone already mentioned plastic canvas...).


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## mindcrash

In the past I've had really good luck with these: 






They're cheap and a single one provides enough material for 5 or more cultures. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I got sick and tired of the excelsior falling out of the cultures all the time when I pulled flies to feed. This was the best alternative I could come up with.

YMMV.


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## radiata

daswooten said:


> I have been trying to find items that I could reuse when growing fruit flies (such as using glass mason jars that are easy to wash/sterilize). I finally found something that worked really well for me - a very open celled pond pre-filter (here). I cut it in half (so that I can use each one for two cultures) and push it into the culture media. The cells are open enough to allow the adult flies easy passage, but not so wide that they die in the media (as they can usually reach the foam to crawl out). For me, the melanogaster produce similarly to what I used to get from excelsior, but the hydei produce much better (and certainly better than some failed experiments - I think someone already mentioned plastic canvas...).


Do you know if this filter material will survive a microwave sterilization?


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## radiata

mindcrash said:


> In the past I've had really good luck with these:
> 
> Amazon.com: Aquasentials Mesh Pouf Sponge (4 Pack): Beauty
> 
> They're cheap and a single one provides enough material for 5 or more cultures. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but I got sick and tired of the excelsior falling out of the cultures all the time when I pulled flies to feed. This was the best alternative I could come up with.
> 
> YMMV.


Do you know if this Pouf Sponge material will survive a microwave sterilization?


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## mindcrash

radiata said:


> Do you know if this Pouf Sponge material will survive a microwave sterilization?


No idea. Let's nuke some and find out


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## daswooten

radiata said:


> Do you know if this filter material will survive a microwave sterilization?


I don't know either, I typically boil mine (which it survives). I have no problems using Mindcrash's approach - I'll let you know tomorrow what the results are.


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## frogfreak

6" unwaxed paper plates (Unwaxed so they draw up excess moisture) No mess, cheap and work well. Fold them in half and jam them right to the bottom, so the corner is bent. I've never had one fall out on me.


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## TheCoop

Great idea Glenn, Ill have to give it a shot on my next round of cultures..


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## radiata

frogfreak said:


> 6" unwaxed paper plates (Unwaxed so they draw up excess moisture) No mess, cheap and work well. Fold them in half and jam them right to the bottom, so the corner is bent. I've never had one fall out on me.


Glenn,

I've been using coffee filters. Claims are made for coffee filters in that they are subsequently eaten by the FFs & their larvae. Have you noticed this with your plate cultures?

Thanks,
Bob

PS: Kudos for your experimental spirit!


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## frogfreak

No I haven't, Bob. They stay in tact until the end.


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## Boboluke

frogfreak said:


> 6" unwaxed paper plates (Unwaxed so they draw up excess moisture) No mess, cheap and work well. Fold them in half and jam them right to the bottom, so the corner is bent. I've never had one fall out on me.



I want to see that frog room just based on the number of cultures you have!


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## Pumilo

I have to post this one, only as a retraction. I used to use scraps of fiberglass screen mesh, leftover from my window business. Lately, I have quit using it. It worries me that a non-food grade plastic is right in there with the flies food. No telling what it could potentially leach. Fiberglass screen mesh is, of course, coated in some type of plastic. I'm posting this as a retraction, as I have posted about my use of screen mesh in the past.
I've gone back to excelsior.


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## frogparty

I went from excelsior to coffee filters. I hate excelsior.


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## frogfreak

Boboluke said:


> I want to see that frog room just based on the number of cultures you have!


Here you go,

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/76488-bug-room.html

I wanted to add that I use raffia for Hydei. I get great production with it.


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## jmdelarosa55

frogfreak said:


> I use rafia as well for Hydei and unwaxed 6" paper plates for melao's.
> 
> A weeks worth. lol


Man! That's alot of FF's. I trust whatever you say in regards to producing cultures. Ordering Raffia now.


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## Pubfiction

This may not help all of you but I have been using toilet paper roll cores or paper towel cores. I don't have many frogs but I find the house produces enough of these to put 2-3 of them in each culture and still have them building up. I only do 1 culture per week though. However they are free and work fine. No quantification though. 

I have seen vendors put a plastic mesh in fruit fly cultures with a diamond pattern. It was pretty flexible and looked decent. But I don't know what it is or where to get it.


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## JPccusa

Pubfiction said:


> I have seen vendors put a plastic mesh in fruit fly cultures with a diamond pattern. It was pretty flexible and looked decent. But I don't know what it is or where to get it.



You mean this? Darice Stiff Plastic Canvas Clear at Joann.com


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## Pubfiction

JPccusa said:


> You mean this? Darice Stiff Plastic Canvas Clear at Joann.com


It was diamond shaped not a square grid and more flexible and had larger holes, but I imagine that cross stitch backing would work well too.


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## frogfreak

jmdelarosa55 said:


> Man! That's alot of FF's. I trust whatever you say in regards to producing cultures. Ordering Raffia now.


Just remember to tinker ie: set up a few with your new method and stick to what you've been doing that has worked for you so far. You may have to tweak it a bit here and there (media and how much water)

Don't go all in at once.


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## Reef_Haven

Pubfiction said:


> I have seen vendors put a plastic mesh in fruit fly cultures with a diamond pattern. It was pretty flexible and looked decent. But I don't know what it is or where to get it.


It is likely Gutter Guard.


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## B-NICE

Coco Husk flower basket (excelsior alternative) - YouTube

I was using this stuff, you can find it in the garden section at Home Depot as a basket. Now I use painters paper, it comes in a huge roll for about $10.


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## Bobamander

I know this is an older thread but I wanted to throw in that I have use the mesh bags that oranges, clementines, tangerines and other fruit sometimes come in.

The mesh isn't too big or too small so it provides a good surface area and I just used the bags I got with fruit so I didn't have to buy them but it looks like you can buy them for dirt cheap.

Each orange sized bag can probably make 4-8 medias, maybe more.

Something like this might work:
*100 pcs Red Net Mesh Bags 25", for Produce, Vegetables, Seafood. Reusable Netting.*
https://www.amazon.com/Produce-Vegetables-Seafood-Reusable-Netting/dp/B01N1WVZZU/


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