# Poor quality frogs



## chuckpowell

Has anyone notice in the past couple of years poor quality frogs being offered for sale, here and elsewhere? Frogs that mature undersize and (or) with poor color. I have.

I believe this is a function of people keeping these animals in subpar conditions and mainly attributable to 1) poor quality feeding; 2) keeping subpar animals in the hobby when they should be removed, and 3) poor husbandry. 

Any comments?

Best,

Chuck


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## Homer

Hey, Chuck, it's good to see you posting. I can't say that I pay particularly close attention to the ads, so I really cannot comment on the quality of frogs being offered.

I do know that I occasionally have what I would consider to be a "runt" frog . . . one that morphs out smaller, tends to grow more slowly, and just generally fails to thrive as well as the others. I think this is just common genetic variation coming through, as I see it in plants that I grow, and saw the same thing in killifish when I raised quite a few. 

I tend to agree with what I believe is suggested in your post, however, and I treat these as "culls" just as I did my killies and as I treat my plants--not placed back in the gene pool, and not offered for sale.

I will say, however, that a lot of the frogs I see offered for sale appear to be quite small, which I imagine is either a function of selling quite young or, as you note, perhaps poor care as tadpoles and froglets. Nonetheless, there still seem to be quite a few people that regularly offer very nice frogs on a regular basis.


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## KeroKero

I've seen a lessening on quality a lot to do with (IMO) small froglet size of some frogs that shouldn't be sold small. I know there was a thread on tincs a bit of time back wondering if they should really be considered beginner frogs... people have a lot of problems with froglets. I think it mostly has to do with the "froglets" as in they are getting animals much too small in size for a newbie to care for... a very touchy time of life for most of these frogs!

I think the stressed of being transported and moved to a new environment puts a big dent in the health and growth of many frogs, like tincs. If these frogs had staid in a stable environment with constant food, would they have had the same problems? I doubt it.... frogs sold at much larger size tend to have less problems...

Then you've got the original quality of the froglets. Smaller froglets that tend to not do as well... I think the trend of algae based diets plays a part in this... as in too big a part of the diet of most of these tadpoles. Bad tadpole diets (and tadpole care) lead to smaller froglets morphing out, which leads to sickly froglets trying to catch up to the point they should have been at, instead of being nice and healthy... frogs struggling to catch up can't handle the stressed of having their lives turned upside down. IF they are lucky, they may just end up duller, or a bit smaller, or not so lucky and never make it to adulthood at all.


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## audioandroid

unfortunately it does happen. i see it a lot at shows as well. very tiny frogs, or very thin frogs. i've even seen adds with pictured frogs with sunken in sides that look as if they've never seen food. this is why a reputation is key. buy from those you know. 

one thing that has killed me in the past is having someone inquire about some frogs. they then decide to buy from someone else (which is fine) but then a week after they get the frog they are in the health and disease treatment section asking how to save the frog. in my opinion...consider the frog still in the water for 2-4 months after it has morphed. meaning just don't sell babies. it keeps customers happier and ultimately you're doing the right thing.

i give praise to all the breeders who refuse to sell young frogletts. it just comes down to patience. 

as for care...i never understand this one either. i feed every day. supplement every day. feed tadpoles everyday. frogs are fat. tads are big. frogletts are huge. a lot is to be said for just feeding these guys right and much of dealing with them really is as simple as proper nutrition and regular feeding.


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## joshsfrogs

This is one of the billion topics I would like the infamous and mysterious treewalkers or some other organization to tackle. The market for dart frogs in our hobby is wide open. Frogs last from a couple of hours to a couple of days on the classified section (I'm amazed the laws of supply and demand have not driven the price of frogs up-I see more demand than I see supply, but prices stay or even get lower...another topic I guess). This allows people to sell young frogs or not the best looking frogs really quick. What motivation does someone have to keep their froglets back for awhile when they sell so quickly? In a perfect world we would have more organization in our hobby with some established guidelines for selling frogs (i.e. size, age, color standards, etc.).

Aren't there fish people who have some kind of standards for the fish they sell?


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## audioandroid

pastorjosh said:


> What motivation does someone have to keep their froglets back for awhile when they sell so quickly?


you definately have a point however to answer that question...reputation. maybe some people don't care about thiers, but it comes back around and for those that do care the word will spread and they will be successful.


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## chuckpowell

Let me explain a little further. For example I have a trio of D. azureus. I've had them for two years and they are, at best, an inch long. I've kept different azureus for maybe 15 years now and these are way undersize by any measure. I've feed them the way I feed all my frogs and I bought them as fair sized froglet (or were they froglets?). They've hardly grown since I've had them. 

Another example is the color of some captive breed E. tricolor, especially Santa Isabels. They should be and I see a few bright, bright candy-apple red. Most are dull and washed out. I'm also starting to see this with a number of tinctorius and some ventrimaculatus group frogs. I'm sure this is due to a poor diet - I've seen it several times in the past and it was always due to diet. 

I'm very worried that the quality of frogs is going down and in another 20 years the frogs will be a poor mirror of wild caught frogs. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Lukeomelas

Chuck, this is a great topic, thank you for bringing it up. A lot of questions come to mind. I wonder if it has a lot to do with the current state of the hobby, where the order of the day is to maximize production. We do everything we can to ensure every egg laid ends up morphing out. I know we bend the rules with medicating, separating, etc. Some of the frogs that are being produced would have never made it in the wild. These frogs end up in the gene pool and over time I'm sure they "pollute" the gene pool with subpar frog genes.

I also wonder if line breeding tends to weaken the gene pool over the years. I know it is thought that most frogs can be interbreed X generations without any problems. Maybe we are starting to get the a problem stage. 

There are also people that don't care and will sell any frog they see fit. 

I don't really have an answer, but I sure would like to know.

Luke


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## Dancing frogs

I was also wondering if it could be (partly) a result of years of inbreeding.

A bunch of froggers were talking around a campfire recently when the quality subject came up...

A person writes to the forum "my frog won't eat and is skinny and getting skinnier"... The response should be...Was it eating before you got it?

On selling young froglets, a long time frogger said:

I won't sell a frog under 3 months old...cause after 3 months...all the dead shit is gone!

Pretty true...I've seen weak froglets (mainly sls) cling to life for over a month...before breaking out the benzocaine...after watching them live, and do nothing but get weaker...you know (or at least should know) it ain't gonna make it long term...

So when did you start noticing the decline Chuck?

Had you dealt with the person that sold you the azureus before, (did they have a reputation, good or bad)?

Is it possible there were just as many poor quality animals sold a number of years ago, but you just didn't hear about them, due to just less people discussing it on the net?

Or, on that tangent, is it possible, due to more info available that (as Luke brought up), the natural culling process is not occurring...and people are nursing every froglet along, runt or not?

I know that (culling) subject got a good run through a couple of years ago...


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## pl259

Small tanks = small frogs!

An oversimplification to make a point. 

Certainly the 5-10gal per frog guideline is not representative of a frog's natural habitat. The smaller environmental conditions we routinely provide in this hobby, likely contribute to some degree of adaptation. 
Consider how dense the frog population is in our tanks, frog rooms, ect. Even more so with breeders. 

Food and breeding (whether selectively driven by market factors or not) are strong factors, but lets not forget about housing.

EricG.NH


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## Ed

My first thoughts on this is that this is primarily dietary related as I have seen poor quality frogs out of new stock (D. auratus) which tends to cause me to lean away from the inbreeding issue until I see more evidence. 

Now the small maturing frogs maybe due to inbreeding as well as the evolutionary pressure we are placing on the frogs to breed as well as the frequency at which the frogs are bred. Even if it isn't deliberate, we are selecting for frogs that mature at a younger age, whether this is a factor at this time hasn't been documented but I suspect its only a matter of time. 

Back to the diet issue,

In a number of anuran species, tadpole size at metamorphosis is directly correlated to metamorphic size which is directly correlated to surviroship of the metamorph. One of the major items controlling tadpole size is the diet of the tadpole (specifically protien content) as well as the water conditions (as this can cause early metamorphosis in a number of species). The introduction of a source of animal protien in the diet can cause a significant change in the size of the tadpole (based on studies in other anuran species). 

Back to small size at maturity, growth of anurans (and reptiles and fish) tends to significantly decrease at the point of sexual maturity as the metabolism redirects reserves from growth to sexual reproduction. If the frog is undersized at metamorphosis, this can result in a growth deficit that is sufficient enough to prevent catching up before sexual maturity. As a further factor, length of photoperiod can have a significant influence on metamorphosis (documented in other anurans) as well as age of sexual maturity. If the person is keeping the photoperiod as a longer period than 14:10 then this maybe influencing these issues. 

Have to get back to work but some thoughts,

Ed


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## Ed

with respect to the tank size comment stunting growth there is no support for this theory as terrestrial amphibians and reptiles with sufficient nutrients will reach thier genetic growth potential. 
(look at Ceratophrys and Pyxicephalus, these frogs will reach maximal growth in a 5 gallon tank if you keep them clean and feed them). 


Ed


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## kyle1745

Just to throw something else into the mix: What about the lack of UV lighting? I have read that some people have had frogs color up in the presence of UV lighting.

I agree much of the size has to be related to diet and tadpole diet. I am a true believer that the algae based diets just do not cut it, whats bad is that when I started in the hobby that is what everyone used. So those frogs have since produced number of froglets which are now out in the hobby.

I also attest some of this to just differences in coloration in the wild. Even some of the recent imports vary greatly in color and patterns.


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## audioandroid

just some more food for thought....

my WC pairs way out produce in clutch size, success ratio and froglett size when compared to long term captive lines.


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## kyle1745

I have also heard that unrelated frogs even so much as cousins produce better clutches than direct offspring. The issue this brings up is how can you be sure that they are exactly the same morph? and or not related?


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## Roadrunner

I agree w/ the hi percentage of people using algae and bloodworm, cyclops etc. producing small froglets. Another thing to remember is that the higher the water temps the quicker and smaller a froglet will morph. Also true is that the tad will only reach the size of it`s container. I have panguana lamasi morphing about 1/2 adult size when raised in a square 5 in x 3in. or 4 inch round pvc or fish brooding containers. About 2 times the mass of tads grown in the exact same system and feeding regimen in 2 inch pvc. 
The other problem is that every hobbiest is working w/ limited space. You may only need 1 - 10g for the adults but you need 3x that space for eggs and tads and 4-6 x the space for froglets if you grow them to a respectable size. I have 1200 sq. - 80sq ft for adult breeders(2 tiers- 24 pairs), 40 sq ft for pumilio breeders(1 tier) 20 sq feet for thumbs(1 tier) and 240 sq ft(3 tier) for froglets-juvis(saleable), 30 sq ft for thumbs offspring(2 tier), and 60 sq ft for tads(1-1/2 tier) and the rest for supplies storage and walk space. Thats a lot of space for 40 sq feet of breeders. People dont have the space and want to move stuff before it`s ready, i know, ive been there. If you give the tads clean water and a lot of food and a good amount of space they will come out of the water at about 3/4 inch and be over 1 inch in about 5 weeks.
There can be a complete lack of gowth during these moving periods.
Also the time it takes for a froglet to start growing when they come out so small can be quite prolonged. The problem is that everyone started going by the 3 month standard and not size. Also most people dont have anything to compare what their froglets look like compared to a healthy frog to standardize 3 motnhs. 
The green chiriqui pumilio are the first froglets ive ever encountered that needed to be supplemented w/ springtails as they grow. I also ran into this problem a lot when i tried using spirulina algae and cyclops and bloodworm on my tads. I had tincs that needed springs to get them going. I feel it was a combo of diet and hi temps as it was approaching 82 during the day before i got ac. If you need springtails for your froglets the are too small(notice i said need). That`s what keeps the heavy competition down unlike other hobbies. It takes a lot of work EVERYDAY to be successful. You have to take care of egg stage, fish stage and froglet stage to be successful, everyday. You have to be a an expert on culturing insects and happen to breed dart frogs. It`s a complete juggling act and you have to be on top of it.
i have only had 1 vacation in 5 years(forced, but i loved it) and i lost a bunch of tads(more than what it cost for the trip) because the pump broke that was filling up the well from the creek, it`s bad for your well to run dry when your in another country and cant be reached, and the tads were overfed and dirty and a bunch died, natural culling i guess. Where was i? Oh ya, it turned into venting, sorry, back to the topic.
I also attribute my success to tanks seeded w/ all sorts of bugs. All my pumilio and thumbnail tanks have isopods and springtails in them for a constant cleanup and snack food for them in the morning before i get to feeding. I have had my first man creeks getting ready to breed and they only came out of the broms 4 months ago. 3 of them were raised in a shoebox. The next clutch of 3 came 6-7 weeks later and the 3rd clutch of 4(so far) just came out 2 days ago. the froglets come out huge. I only feed the adults 3-4 X a week because they eat so much out of the tank. 
Sorry, I dont mean to sound superior but i`ve just dedicated 10 hours a day toward raising frogs for the past 10 years and i`ve found some correlations. I dont buy many frogs and when i do i get them as young as possible so I can get them into my environment quickly. I havent been to iad in years and havent browsed much w/ the being so busy w/ the animals and the farm lately. I`m just going on what I`ve noticed in my own collection and most of my breeders were farm raised or 1st generation in and i still have them. I have noticed a few people have gotten much better on the thumbnails though and the pumilio. You hardly ever saw cb thumbs or pumilio years ago. I did see cr pum froglets for $75ea and i hope they got to an experienced hobbiest. They can be touchy, especially that small. People seem to want it though as i`ve seen 40 azureus froglets move for $25ea when i have had the same 8 available over 1 inch(3 x the mass) for $50ea. A lot of vendors do it because they are expensive animals and people can`t spend a lot of money because of the economic climate and it does cost a lot to feed these guys if you dont culture the food yourself. 
Just my observations.
Btw, Chuck, good to see you posting.


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## defaced

Excellent discussion. I've noticed that not only size and color have suffered, but the body structer of some frogs that have been for sale is pretty poor. 

I think another common factor is that many people over indulge themselves with frogs when they don't have adaquate expeience, particularly when they're new to the hobby. If they stay in the hobby, they become over whelmed by the frogs breeding and simply don't do a good job of it. Had they picked one species to begin with, and stuck with that one species instead of expanding, when that species started to breed they would have had more time/energy/space to devote to doing things right. 

Diet has been mentioned, protien particularly. Aaron pointed out that bloodworms aren't a good food source for tads; I had always thought they were a good source of protien which attribute to misinformation. So what food is a good source of protien for tads?


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## rompida

defaced said:


> Diet has been mentioned, protien particularly. Aaron pointed out that bloodworms aren't a good food source for tads; I had always thought they were a good source of protien which attribute to misinformation. So what food is a good source of protien for tads?



I've been using earthworm flakes lately, and I've been pleased with the size of my tads. However, I think variety is truly the spice of life. I alternate between different fish foods - especially those meant to be fed to saltwater fish. Lately I've been using the "Formula Two" brand by Ocean Nutrition and find those to be of much higher quality then the cheap stuff you find on the typical *&%-mart shelf.

On another note, I almost feel ashamed to say this (but I don't), but I DON'T feed and tend to my frogs everyday. I feed every other day, even every 2-3 days. But, I don't just feed ff's. I feed springtails, pinhead crix, and sometimes meadow plankton, which may have something to do with it. I'm quite happy with the size and weight of my frogs. When I first got into the hobby, I messed around with the frogs every day. Now I kind of think they are better off with being left alone as much as possible other than feeding & misting every couple of days.


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## kyle1745

I like tadpole bites and brine shrimp. Even algae has good amounts of protein, but I can not speak to the different types of proteins. I think some of the issues are with the type of algae used and maybe they are over processed. The other issue is with water fouling and thus underfeeding tads.


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## Roadrunner

Aquarian has only 40% protein but all the vit and min they need. I also supplement(make a mix w/) osi vivicolor and omega one appetite enhancement formula. They both have a list of vit and mineral most of which i cant pronounce or spell(also natural color enhancers, salmon etc.) a mile long. None of which is probably found naturally in their environment but may better reflect the sheer diversity of nutrients supplied by aquatic inverts, dead leaves, feeder eggs or whatever it is they may encounter in their natural environment. Maybe it`s better for them than what they find in their natural environment. 
For me it`s all about optimal conditions and not their natural environment. Wasnt there a study about asian diet relating to a smaller build as opposed to american diet? Is that natural or just conditions for farmed diet or population? I imagine French Guianan Dwarf D. tinct evolved that way for a reason. Should we be trying to feed them optimally or house more together to mimic population? How long will it take for them to start getting bigger gen to gen? I haven`t really thought about any of this.
Bloodworm has only protein, some fat, fiber. Although some dried is enhanced w/ vits. Same w/ most "whole foods". You can raise a pretty big kid on steak and salads but there will be all sorts of deficiencies. I`m sure there is more than one kind of plant life/debris and one kind of aquatic insect in there rearing puddle. 
There are many more syndromes other than sls and mbd that are much more suttle and take much longer to kill. Most animals can be on the verge of producing healthy froglets for weeks and months before they all start going bad. there are too many people out there using methyl blue to get things to survive. if mine cant make it on purified well water they dont make it. They should then be shut down for a while to get back to normal levels. Resulting tads usually have to be nursed and kept very clean to survive. These are all factors which play an important part in optimal growth. Most people dont like to cull and may have no comparison on what to cull.


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## Roadrunner

Another thing is that water temps above 75 are going to produce, in most cases, small froglets no matter what you feed. If hi water temps are a problem the metabolism is too hi and protein doesnt help. It compounds the problem by speeding growth w/out the proper vitamins. 
This is also true w/ froglets. If they dont get 73f or lower temps each nite there engine is reved up when they cant eat. This can cause subacute digestive problems. This is if day temps are constantly around 80+ and takes a long time and is mostly for hiland species. i now shoot for 78 day and 69 nite with a constant 69-71 on tads water and i have seen a marked improvement.
It`s tempting to keep temps higher, you see quicker growth rates breeding size at 6-7 months in some species and you can move inventory thru a lot quicker. Most pet shops are around 80 constant, that i`ve been to.
More things to attribute general health issues to.


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## kyle1745

Great points on the heat...
I run about the same temps you do: room temp: 69-75, tanks from 69-78, tads & froglets around 69-74.

I have also had much better luck with tads in the lower temp ranges.


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## Guest

Hi guys,

I hope you all don't mind me stepping in to this most excellent conversation. Just to recap, I've been researching the hobby for over a year concentrating on pumilio research, I still don't have darts becuase until just recently did not believe I could keep them alive (temps were a big factor). I just went to my first reptile show two or three weeks ago and saw, from the 4 vendors who were selling frogs, alot of variety in size. Keep in mind I don't have anything to compare these too except the photos I've seen on the web. I saw tincs and luecs and azureus that ranged in sizes from small (as in the size of the numbers on your keypad) to large (as in the size of the enter button on your keypad). All the colors were amazing, to me at least. However many of the frogs I saw had boney protruding hip that gave these frogs a V shapped silhouette on their dorsal sides. Is this normal? It didnt look normal to me so I stayed away. In my novice opinion many at the show were underweight becuase their bellies seemed to be sucked in, giving the frogs the hourglass shape.
And the pumilio (my target frog for the day) seemed to have dull red colors (the red morphs that I saw available). By far Aaron(frog farm) had the best pumilios, with the sold out bastimentos (now there was a specimen I would have bought, fat, colorful, big). Ofcourse I arrived at midday so I may have missed out on the good frogs :roll: :? .

I want to say that I realy enjoy this thread and have learned alot by just reading all your thoughts and opinions. One thought that has always crossed my mind is how people, novices like myself, buy frogs and put them into tanks that have been setup for only a week tops. How is a frog supposed to find any microfauna in there???? IMHO, as stated before, many of the problems in the hobby could be avoided by simply implementing patience.



defaced said:


> Excellent discussion. I've noticed that not only size and color have suffered, but the body structer of some frogs that have been for sale is pretty poor.
> 
> I think another common factor is that many people over indulge themselves with frogs when they don't have adaquate expeience, particularly when they're new to the hobby. If they stay in the hobby, they become over whelmed by the frogs breeding and simply don't do a good job of it. Had they picked one species to begin with, and stuck with that one species instead of expanding, when that species started to breed they would have had more time/energy/space to devote to doing things right.
> 
> Diet has been mentioned, protien particularly. Aaron pointed out that bloodworms aren't a good food source for tads; I had always thought they were a good source of protien which attribute to misinformation. So what food is a good source of protien for tads?


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## Ed

I strongly doubt that bloodworms are not a good source of animal protien for the tadpoles. The main problem I have found with the use of bloodworms (Chirominad midge larva) is that they readily pollute the water due the amount of leakage when used frozen thawed. This leakage readily fouls the water and I would suspect has a bigger part in why there are issues with thier use in small containers. Personally I perfer to use live blackworms (Lumbriculus variegatus and not tubifex) in with the tadpoles as these will not foul the water in small numbers and the tadpoles will readily consume them. 

I can remember when the Zoos went over to Aquarian flake, in my experience it has not been any better or worse than any other good brand of flake. In the last 14 or so years I have had excellant success with Tetra-min. 

Onto heat, while it is true it speeds the metabolism, I doubt that is speeds the metabolism without the proper vitamins... (If you have a citation proving this I would be interested in seeing it) and can result in smaller metamorphs, this may not be all there is to it as people will limit food intake to prevent water fouling so the tads will not have access to sufficient food to support the increased metabolic rate resulting in sacrificed growth. (this is how it works in other anurans). Typically temperature along with poor water quality are what stimilates rapid metamorphosis in a number of anuran species. These indicators are typical in a evaporating water source which is why metamorphosis is triggered as to continue to wait invites death. 
Lower temperatures allow for a greater conversion of the food reserves to fat (as cellular metabolism is decreased) which can lead to a larger metamorph but this may also be an artifact of an insufficient or inappropriate food supply atg warmer temps (as at the colder temps the tadpole has more time to store nutrients and vitamins for metamorphosis). (I have some doubts for example that a bromeliad in the sun stays less than 80 F and even moderate bodies of water here in the USA can reach 80 F and up by the time the daytime temps are in the midto upper 80s F. This is why I think there maybe something else going on here other than just temperature) . 

Why is there an assumption that tadpoles can't eat at night? This is not supported by behavior in other species (nor in my personal observations).

snip "For me it`s all about optimal conditions and not their natural environment. Wasnt there a study about asian diet relating to a smaller build as opposed to american diet? "endsnip 

It was due to a lack of animal protien specifically red meat. The gap in size difference is rapidly decreasing with each generation (this also occured in Americans over the last several hundred years). What you are talking about here is phenotypic plasticity of the genotype allowing for the organism to take advantage of shifting nutrient sources. Another example of this is how one of the Darwin finch's beak can change from a small seed specialist to a larger seed specialist based on supply within a generational time or two. 

snip "There are many more syndromes other than sls and mbd that are much more suttle and take much longer to kill."endsnip 

Such as? 


snip "On another note, I almost feel ashamed to say this (but I don't), but I DON'T feed and tend to my frogs everyday. I feed every other day, even every 2-3 days. "endsnip 

This is not a problem. With amphibians, metabolic nutritional needs can be met over the course of a week as opposed to daily feedings. I feed every other day at work and unless there has been a long illness, all of the dart frogs have had abundent fat pads (meaning they were on the obese side). 

snip "Also true is that the tad will only reach the size of it`s container. "endsnip 

This typically has a lot to due with the water quality in the enclosure. It is true that more water is better particuarly in the beginning as the bacteria which can process the tadpoles' waste get established (just like cycling an aquarium) and can be independent of the feeding until the bacteria get established. 

snip "Just to throw something else into the mix: What about the lack of UV lighting? I have read that some people have had frogs color up in the presence of UV lighting. "endsnip 

UV exposure typically causes the production of melanin. It is possible that it could stimulate the uptake and storage of carotenoids in the chromatopores but this has not been found in other anurans. In general the most commonly used carotenoid in the frogs' diets is betacarotene which will help with yellow and to a lesser extent red. I'm not going to rehash this here if interested search the forum for the relevant threads. 
Blue can't typically be enhanced through diet as it is the result of reflecting the blue wavelenght by the iridiopores (with the other wavelengths being absorbed) and the concentration of the iridiopores appears to be genetically fixed at metamorphosis (but in some other amphibians if fed an excess of some pigmments like allopurinol, the iridiopore can be converted to a melanopore). 

As I mentioned in another thread, it is entirely possible that the intensity of the color (in some species) may be open to modification during windows of oportunity. (this was also discussed in some of the coloration threads). 

Some thoughts

Ed


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## pl259

Re-regarding tank size, it may not be that the confined space stunts growth, but rather that smaller frogs are more comfortable and less stressed and would tend to breed more, more a process of natural selection. 
There's also the growing merits of epigenetic inheritance. A topic I'm neither qualified nor informed enough to discuss. The increasing links between nature and nurture continue to fascinate never the less.

EricG.NH


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## Ed

snip "Re-regarding tank size, it may not be that the confined space stunts growth, but rather that smaller frogs are more comfortable and less stressed and would tend to breed more, more a process of natural selection."endsnip 

It is the availability of the correct niches corresponding to the respective behavior (feeding, reproduction) that do more for the required space than anything. Some of the small frogs can have pretty large territories depending on spacing and availability of the needed resources. 


snip "There's also the growing merits of epigenetic inheritance. A topic I'm neither qualified nor informed enough to discuss. The increasing links between nature and nurture continue to fascinate never the less. "endsnip 

I'm not so sure that nurture is really the issue but this is what to some extent what I was getting at with my reference to phenotypic plasticity above. 

Ed


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## Homer

kyle1745 said:


> I like tadpole bites and brine shrimp. Even algae has good amounts of protein, but I can not speak to the different types of proteins. I think some of the issues are with the type of algae used and maybe they are over processed. The other issue is with water fouling and thus underfeeding tads.


Kyle, are you using frozen brine shrimp or newly hatched live brine shrimp? I occasionally use the frozen brine, as it is quite easy, and we used it quite often for killifish. I have not raised baby brine shrimp from eggs since I quit raising killifish. It was just quite a bit of work, and the egg prices have gone up considerably since the last time I purchased them. However, they might be worthwhile to feed to high orange or red tadpoles because they do contain quite a few carotenoids.

I am surprised everyone has bashed the bloodworms. While I agree that they do foul the water, I use Hikari frozen bloodworms that are vitamin fortified. I only feed this the day before water changes (once per week), but find that the high protein and fat content really help beef up the tads.

I experimented with lots of live foods last summer, as that is the mantra I learned keeping killies, but did not find that it significantly affected the size of tadpoles or newly morphed froglets, even when a steady diet of mosquito larvae and daphnia were fed. My luck has seemed every bit as good (actually better) with the frozen brine shrimp, bloodworms, and Tadpole Bites this winter. In fact, my tads get larger and morph out larger than when I was feeding the mostly live diet supplemented with Tetra Min.

I love hearing the discussion on raising tads, though. It's great to hear how everyone else is doing it.


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## Roadrunner

Syndromes such as arrested development of tads at any stage, misformed back legs, short tongue syndrome, hunched backs, curled tails of tads so they swim in circles, bloat in 1 tadpole as opposed to the rest of the clutch, clutches taking 4-5 days to start showing signs of dividing, clutches successively taking longer to form then not forming at all, etc. They all seem to be related to diet w/ my breeding groups, old vitamins, strictly cricket diets, bad tad foods. Just general health problems w/ say total lack of vit c because u have been using the same vitamins for 2 years or you buy outdated vitamin. Maybe syndrome was the wrong word. 
I`m not saying bloodworm is a bad source of protein, if you use only bloodworm and spirulina you may have problems because of lack of vits. Also i`m talking frozen unsupplemented bloodworms. 
I wasnt referring to tads eating only during the day i was referring to froglets only able to eat during the day. tads will eat whenever you put food in there day or nite. it`s also really hard to get the large volume of water i have to flux more than 2 degrees. froglets need the drop or lower temps because of the relatively large food items they eat. If they eat a lot of springtails you may not have the same problem.
As for not getting the right vitamins i meant it is harder to supply the correct mixture with these sped up needs for growth. It`s much harder to balance intake of fat carbs protein vit and minerals.

Also true is that the tad will only reach the size of it`s container. I have panguana lamasi morphing about 1/2 adult size when raised in a square 5 in x 3in. or 4 inch round pvc or fish brooding containers. About 2 times the mass of tads grown in the exact same system and feeding regimen in 2 inch pvc. this means in the same water as the bigger containers. this is true for a couple auratus galacts azureus and tincs and lamasi so far. i havent tried any others. i use an over flow return system which filters the water 3 x an hour or at least mixes it and i do half water changes 1 x a week. all my tads get the same uv sterilized and filtered water which is constantly flowing. i currently have 1 sterilite which has these bigger containers and routinely have to shoebox each froglet that comes out of them or throw tham in w/ month old frogs.


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## Guest

I'm following this discussion as it's something I am very interested in...but I have very little to add. Keeping tricolors, I am also concerned about color loss and intensity. One of my males just delivered a couple of the decent tadpoles from his first clutch about three days ago into a pool in the viv. This pool has been collecting detritus and algae and bacterial films since around Christmas. This is my first experience with tad growth and whatnot, so I don't have anything to compare my current observations with, but I am amazed at the growth of the tad in the pool. I haven't fed it anything, only allowing it to eat what has accumulated...and it has easily doubled in size in 3 days time. I can only imagine that this mulm is a pretty rich diet, but I guess I'll have to see how things play out.


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## kyle1745

Great info everyone this is some great information.

Homer,
I use the dried brine shrimp and only very rarely. It does still foul the water more than say tadpole bites. I keep meaning to pick up some Tetra Min, but I do start most tads out with a little sera micron.

One of the things I really like about the tadpole bites is that they do not foul the water and I can feed weekly or twice a weekly without issue. I currently feed twice a week as well as change the water.


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## kyle1745

I also wonder how much variation is there is in the wild. From pictures and the recent imports I would say a good deal. So is this also linked to nutrition or just normal variations? Not every blond is the same shade nor is every brunette.

I know in aruatus and azurues I have seen color variations from the same clutch after being raised the exact same way.

So is the key breeding frogs with good coloration or just overall care? Im not sure we know but agree that nutrition plays a role. Reason I say this is that I have seen dull parents produce vibrant offspring.


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## Dancing frogs

I haven't bought any frogs I considered to be "poor" quality...

However, I have bought frogs that were mis-represented by the photo that is supposed to represent the animals that were for sale...

...not cool!


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## chuckpowell

*New paper, very interesting - new quinquevittatus group*

This seems to be steaming along quite nicely, but I'll make a few comments. First I believe almost every problem we see our frogs is the result of husbandry.

Size- Many factors here, but husbandry and mainly food quality attributes to most of them. Warm temperatures definately produce small froglets, keep water temperatures in the 60's to low 70's for best results. Diet is something I haven't decided on. I feed mostly a vegetable based food and get large tadpoles that morph out into large froglets. I'm not sure how much protein is needed, but I'd think it should not be more than half the diet and likely quite a bit less. Nearly all the frogs I see today are smaller than their wild counterparts. I've seen animals from only one person who consistantly got, as large, or larger animals than wild caught and she feed heavily with vegetable matter, dry and fresh. The rest of us are doing something incorrect. 

Color - This goes back to diet again. Supplementation is essential and we (as hobbyist) need to look into figuring out what the animals need to develop good color. Yes there is color variations in the wild, but wild caught animals, regardless of color, have better color than a number of captive breed animals. Also the colors of wild caught animals are vivarant, they seem to glow - I rarely see that in capive breed animals. 

Culling - I've argued this for probably 10 years. Aids (methel blue, or whatever) to help keep tadpoles alive should be avoided - let the little buggers die. In addition, water quality shouldn't be that big a deal. There are articles from the 80's of people raising tadpoles for 3-4 months with NO water changes and the water stunk. While this is an extreme, your tadpoles should have no problem with water with an obvious smell. Weekly water changes shouldn't be a problem for healthy animals. Froglets - if their small and weak - let em die. If they don't feed well and can't keep up - let em die. I know for the most part this will fall on deaf ears and probably have several people mad at me, again. But for the long term health of the hobby it has to happen. 

General health - the size of a frog does not equate to good health. Fat frogs are not necessarily healthy. I try and keep my frogs on the thin side. Have you seen wild frogs? They aren't fat. Our target should be the life span of the frogs, not how many froglets they produce, or how fat our frogs are. My greatest achievement was keeping a trio of wc D. auratus alive for just short of 18 years. They produced for 16 of those years, but I don't think I ever got more than 30-40 froglets a year. I'm proud of that, not the frogs I introduced to the hobby, or imported, or breed first (or second, or whatever). 

I guess that's enough for now. Comments? 

Best,

Chuck


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## Ed

snip "Syndromes such as arrested development of tads at any stage, misformed back legs, short tongue syndrome, hunched backs, curled tails of tads so they swim in circles, bloat in 1 tadpole as opposed to the rest of the clutch, clutches taking 4-5 days to start showing signs of dividing, clutches successively taking longer to form then not forming at all, etc. They all seem to be related to diet w/ my breeding groups, old vitamins, strictly cricket diets, bad tad foods. "endsnip 

I'm not sure that these should be classified as syndromes (or spectrum disorders). While some of these may be attributed to nutritional issues some of these are more likely to be husbandry or random developmental disorders. People often forget that depending on the population, there are going to be developmental disruptions that can severely affect the animal. This is simply a statistical event, it will occur in a population sooner or later, and given that anurans undergo metamorphosis the disruption can affect more than one life stage. The issue is that we do not know how often these should occur (as an example in humans cleft palates occur in about 1.7 of 2000 births while genital and urinary tract developemental issues can occur as frequently as 1 in 10 (see http://www.marchofdimes.com/pnhec/4439_1215.asp). 
Others like bloat in part of a clutch are in all likelyness due to pathogens and/or parasites (this is what it has been in my experience based on necropsy results). 



snip " froglets need the drop or lower temps because of the relatively large food items they eat."endsnip

This is odd as the rate of digestion drops with body temperature and if low enough food will actually decompose before it can be digested. 

snip "As for not getting the right vitamins i meant it is harder to supply the correct mixture with these sped up needs for growth. It`s much harder to balance intake of fat carbs protein vit and minerals. "endsnip 

This may be true but we don't know as the RDA for the amphibians has not been established but the ratio of protein, carb and fat doesn't change. The frog simply needs a higher total caloric content in its diet which given that most people overfeed thier frogs is not an issue. 

snip "Also true is that the tad will only reach the size of it`s container. I have panguana lamasi morphing about 1/2 adult size when raised in a square 5 in x 3in. or 4 inch round pvc or fish brooding containers. About 2 times the mass of tads grown in the exact same system and feeding regimen in 2 inch pvc. this means in the same water as the bigger containers."endnsnip 

Is this due to the higher volume of water or is it due to pheremonal disruption of development in the higher density enclosures. What you are describing matches one of the method of what happens with pheremonal disruption of development of tadpoles. 

Ed


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## Ed

Hi Chuck,

Snip "This seems to be steaming along quite nicely, but I'll make a few comments. First I believe almost every problem we see our frogs is the result of husbandry."endsnip 

Maybe... As I noted above developmental disruptions are a normal part of any population and some of these may be a normal part of the population (see my comments above for a further explination). This is often overlooked. 


snip "Size- Many factors here, but husbandry and mainly food quality attributes to most of them. Warm temperatures definately produce small froglets, keep water temperatures in the 60's to low 70's for best results. Diet is something I haven't decided on. I feed mostly a vegetable based food and get large tadpoles that morph out into large froglets. I'm not sure how much protein is needed, but I'd think it should not be more than half the diet and likely quite a bit less."endsnip 

It depends on whether or not all of the necessary amino acids are present in the vegetable portion of the diet. If you are using large containers that get light then the tads maybe able to reach a major portion of their protein needs by grazing on the aufwuchs present on the sides of the enclosures. (for required amino acids for dart frogs see BIRKHAHN, H. 1991. New knowledge about amino-acid requirements of Dendrobatids. (Germ.) Neue Erkenntnisse über die Aminosäureversorgung bei Dendrobatiden. Herpetofauna. 13 (74):23-28) (If anyone gets an english translation I would like to see it as I would like to read the original article as I have only read references and comments on it). 
In short if the vegetable portion of the diet is lacking in the amino acids then more protein is required. In a very small sample size of vent tadpoles (3), I was able to eliminate cannibalism by keeping a steady supply of blackworms in the enclosure. 

snip "Color - This goes back to diet again. Supplementation is essential and we (as hobbyist) need to look into figuring out what the animals need to develop good color. Yes there is color variations in the wild, but wild caught animals, regardless of color, have better color than a number of captive breed animals. Also the colors of wild caught animals are vivarant, they seem to glow - I rarely see that in capive breed animals. "endsnip

I agree and have made a number of comments in different threads on here and frognet about this topic.. 

snio "In addition, water quality shouldn't be that big a deal. There are articles from the 80's of people raising tadpoles for 3-4 months with NO water changes and the water stunk."endsnip 

This doesn't mean that the water contained excessive levels of nitrite or ammonia.... Water quality is something we have to pay more attention to as there are more and more endocrine disrupters getting into the water supply. As more is looked at, it appears that amphibians may respond to these in levels that do not (at this time) appear to affect people. 

snip " While this is an extreme, your tadpoles should have no problem with water with an obvious smell. "endsnip

I agree. 

snip " Have you seen wild frogs? They aren't fat. Our target should be the life span of the frogs, not how many froglets they produce, or how fat our frogs are. My greatest achievement was keeping a trio of wc D. auratus alive for just short of 18 years. They produced for 16 of those years, but I don't think I ever got more than 30-40 froglets a year. I'm proud of that, not the frogs I introduced to the hobby, or imported, or breed first (or second, or whatever). "endsnip 

I have had tincts at work for about 15 years that produced eggs for that entire time. As this was at work, I didn't rear tads unless there was a request for them. 
One of the clear indicators that we are overfeeding the frogs is how fast a female can reclutch. Egg laying and deposition is a very energy intensive process, if they can reclutch in a week (as I have seen reported on this and other forums), they are being fed a diet very high in calories. This can result in developmental issues in the tads and metamorphs as this maybe too short a period to allow the female to aquire sufficient fat soluable vitamins (such as vitamin A) to ensure proper development. 

Some comments. 

Ed 

I guess that's enough for now. Comments?


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## Dancing frogs

Ed said:


> One of the clear indicators that we are overfeeding the frogs is how fast a female can reclutch. Egg laying and deposition is a very energy intensive process, if they can reclutch in a week (as I have seen reported on this and other forums), they are being fed a diet very high in calories. This can result in developmental issues in the tads and metamorphs as this maybe too short a period to allow the female to aquire sufficient fat soluable vitamins (such as vitamin A) to ensure proper development.
> 
> Some comments.
> 
> Ed
> 
> I guess that's enough for now. Comments?


Very interesting...any idea what a "normal" reproductive rate is?

Is the "over feeding" cause or effect?

Are they possibly "over breeding" because the tank is relatively small (more contact)...and thus needing to "over eat" to make up lost calories?

As far as colors, I have noticed that my six-point auratus breeder's green spots are much more irridescent, and mettalic than their offsprings...I've tried feeding them about everything that could be considered food, and the results don't change much.
The difference isn't enough to notice in pictures, but seeing them in person, the difference is pretty noticable...

Makes me wonder...What goes into the production of an iridiphore? (did I spell that right?)


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## Roadrunner

Ed,
Did you read the whole description of my tad enclosures. I know i dont write well, please try to follow. They are all on the same water, 100 gallons/ 750 tadpoles on an overflow return sytem. This means that 100 gallons of water is filtered by a fluval 401 and uv sterilized 3 times per hour and circulated between 750 tads in 10 different underbed sterilites. i change 50 gallons of that water once a week. Some tads get bigger containers.
I just measured my adult panguana lamasi. he is 3/4 inch. a tadpole raised in a 3x5inch rectangular fish brooder is over 1 inch in total length and just over 1/2 inch body length. A tadpole from the same clutch was raised in 2 inch pvc(same water depth) and that tad is about 7/8th inch long and is about 3/8th inch total body length at metamorphisis. I have seen it over and over again. As for the tad w/ bloat as opposed to the others there is a reason that one in 13 would get it. It is not as healthy as the others considering they are all in the same 6x6 enclosure. i see it less when i`m up on feeding, have fresh vits and minerals and in tanks w/ more types of isopods and springs. i believe most of these to be dietary as per health of the adults. 
I have no papers to cite as i dont pay very much attention to them. I dont take notes on what i do but i do pay attention to what`s happening in my collection. When you can morph galacts, tincs and auratus out at 3/4 inch consistently you dont change your procedure because a paper says your froglets will be smaller if you raise them in the same water. I believe they may secrete hormones if they are in visual contact and competition w/ siblings but ive seen no difference in size between tads raised in a 16oz cup and tads raised in 4 inch pvc w/ screening on the bottom and sharing 100g of water w/ 749 of his relatives if they are fed the same things and have the same temps.
And I`ve seen the opposite with phyllobates and tricolor. i have tried to raise them communally and indepentently and i never have near as good success raising them independantly as i do in groups. They seem to thrive on the competition.


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## Guest

> Culling - I've argued this for probably 10 years. Aids (methel blue, or whatever) to help keep tadpoles alive should be avoided - let the little buggers die. In addition, water quality shouldn't be that big a deal. There are articles from the 80's of people raising tadpoles for 3-4 months with NO water changes and the water stunk. While this is an extreme, your tadpoles should have no problem with water with an obvious smell. Weekly water changes shouldn't be a problem for healthy animals. Froglets - if their small and weak - let em die. If they don't feed well and can't keep up - let em die. I know for the most part this will fall on deaf ears and probably have several people mad at me, again. But for the long term health of the hobby it has to happen.


I heartily agree.


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## kyle1745

Yes the culling comment is dead on and I can not agree more.

On the supplementation topic and mainly in relation to tadpoles. If tads are raised in the same methods, water, temperature, container, then would this not rule out supplementation or nutrition as a complete source for coloration? Not looking to question, but to try to tie it all together.

Water quality is another great pointl. I've taken the approach that I re-mineralized RO so I at least have a rough idea what I am getting. I agree that the local water supplies and even most bottled water is not as clean as it is hyped. I am also looking into adding a UV filter on my water supply but need to find a larger holding tank first.

I agree many of these ideas are better than most used practices but is there a way to prove they are ideal? Im asking as what tests could be ran to determine the best methods. Would these test have to be run on every species or could they be generalized? As an example Im sure we could put together some tests with more auratus than we would need. I've made feeble attempts at some testing on my own which I felt showed some interesting results but they were by no means a large enough sample size to warrant any ideal findings. I know I praise my results with tadpole bites, but again are they ideal? or just the best that I tested?


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## Dancing frogs

kyle1745 said:


> I know I praise my results with tadpole bites, but again are they ideal? or just the best that I tested?


Or just what worked best in conjunction with the water, temps, photoperiod, etc.?

No question they are a good product...just thinking out loud...


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## kyle1745

Yup... What I do now compared to before produces much better results. Colors, size, etc...

But is it ideal?


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## Roadrunner

Truth is a high percentage of frogs out there arent going to breed, a lot are just pets. The final of this is that different people have different lifestyles and reasons for keeping these frogs and breeding these frogs. My goal is to provide as many healthy frogs as possible. Considering some of these frogs will go to retailers and to people who wont feed everyday or feed the right foods, i try to keep them as fat and as big as possible to supply them for a life under less than optimal conditions. Vacations w/out feeding, not feeding more than 3 times a week, culture crashes all compound for a less than perfect life, they need to be geared up for that. They are kept densely (8-10/20 gallon mostly) and kept clean and jet sprayed and they are fed every day.
I cant test out field sweepings to improve color in my adults. Any parasites contracted could upset breeding and result in the loss of my breeders. I do however keep w/ a wide range of isopods, springtails, fruit flies and diversely gutloaded crickets to vary diet and do my best to supply natural color enhancers. 
If it is not your livelyhood people will continue to sell small froglets(wallmart scenerio, less quality at a cheaper price), not buy an ac if they live in warmer climates and still breed their frogs, not buy water which doesnt have whatever disrupters they are now adding to the water and still try to have more animals then thay have the space for. If there is a market for it...
As for skinniness of imports, how long have they not eaten after being caught till when we see them. Just because they are skinny in the wild doesnt mean it`s best for them. They die young in the wild. there are tremendous hardships forced on them in the wild. droughts, parasites predators(which stress the animals if not kill them). As for feeding every day, i see them roaming the tanks looking for food on the days i dont feed if they dont have springs or occasional isopods to chase after. I think it puts less strain on the animal to eat every day. They eat tons of small food. A pacman frog which eats large prey items may not need food every day and may die if fed every day. just because nutritional intake can be broke up to a weekly basisi doesnt mean you can cram all that food in on the last day and have it even out. i`m not saying 3-4 days a week isnt adequate, i`m just saying it`s less than optimal. a large meal takes more energy to digest than small successive meals. also darts can eat in the morning eat at noon and eat again at 7 if you feed them 3 x. I really think they are different because of the small prey large # of food items they require.
and there caloric intake being raised and the same vit and minerals needed for growth under hotter conditions? how can an animal need the same amount of calcium under that heightened growth as an animal under slower bone mass addition in cooler conditions. If it takes 3 months for an animal to hit 1 gram and 6 months for another animal to reach that 1 gram you`d think that they would need equal amounts of calcium in those different times to build the same bone mass minus the amount of calcium needed for normal metabolic functions.


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## Ed

Hi Brian,

Snip "Very interesting...any idea what a "normal" reproductive rate is? "endsnip

I suspect that it is in the literature but I don't have the time to look it up at this time. I would suggest checking out the following and the cited bibliography(ies) for some of the answers 

Summers, K. 1990. Paternal care and the cost of polygyny in the green dart-poison frog. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology. 27 307-313.

Wells, K. D. 1978. Courtship and parental behavior in a Panamanian poison-arrow frog (Dendrobates auratus). Herpetologica. 34 (2):148-155

Limerick, S. 1980. Courtship behavior and oviposition of the poison-arrow frog Dendrobates pumilio. Herpetologica. 36 69-71.

Donnelly, Maureen A. 1989. Demographic effects of reproductive resource supplementation in a territorial frog, Dendrobates pumilio. Ecological Monographs. 59 (3):207-221. 

Summers, K. 1989. Sexual selection and intra-female competition in the green poison-dart frog, Dendrobates auratus. Animal Behaviour. 37 797-805. 

Summers, K. 1992. Mating strategies in two species of dart-poison frogs: A comparative study. Animal Behaviour. 43 907-919.

Summers, K. and W. Amos. 1997. Behavioral, ecological, and molecular genetic analyses of reproductive strategies in the Amazonian dart-poison frog, Dendrobates ventrimaculatus. Behavioral Ecology. 8 (3):260-267.

Caldwell, Janalee P. and Verônica R. L. de Oliveira. 1999. Determinants of biparental care in the spotted poison frog, Dendrobates vanzolinii (Anura: Dendrobatidae). Copeia. 1999 (3):565-575. 
(I think that is a good start). 


Is the "over feeding" cause or effect? 

Overfeeding supplies more calories which are converted to fat pads which then trigger the system to induce yolk formation. As the animal is able to store the fat more rapidly due to an excess of nutrients well beyond its metabolic needs this can speed up the yolking process. 

snip "Are they possibly "over breeding" because the tank is relatively small (more contact)...and thus needing to "over eat" to make up lost calories? "endsnip

Actually I would have to say the opposite. They are more readily able to overeat because they do not have to expend the same amount of energy foraging as they would in a larger enclosure (or in the wild). This reduces the caloric needs of the frog. The rate of the ability of the female to yolk and deposit eggs is one of the limiting factors in the terraria (in addition to how many clutches the male can care for as well as deposition sites). By supplying calories in excess of the metabolic needs and pulling the eggs, we are enabling the frogs to breed much more frequently. 

snip "As far as colors, I have noticed that my six-point auratus breeder's green spots are much more irridescent, and mettalic than their offsprings...I've tried feeding them about everything that could be considered food, and the results don't change much. "endsnip

Iridiophore formation occurs at the time of metamorphosis and attempting to stimulate thier production after that point is pretty useless. (There are a few anuran species whose tadpoles do have iridiophores but these tend to not be carried over (As I understand it) after metamorphosis because of the massive reorganization of the skin structure at metamorphosis. 


snip "Makes me wonder...What goes into the production of an iridiphore?"endsnip 

If I remember correctly it is a guanine based crystalline structure

Ed


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## audioandroid

something i think we haven't really added to this discussion is "time".

i don't think some people realize the amount of time these guys can eat up out of your schedule. taking care of them isn't rocket science. it all comes down to spending the amount of time needed to keep them at their best. everything we are discussing, nutrition, tadpole care, husbandry all consumes quite a bit of our day to do it properly. people start to cut corners on not doing it every day or not feeling like doing it and the frogs suffer. i really think there are people out there that throw some flies in every once in a while, put the tadpole in a cup and feed when they feel like it and aren't as committed as they need to be.


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## Dancing frogs

Ed said:


> snip "As far as colors, I have noticed that my six-point auratus breeder's green spots are much more irridescent, and mettalic than their offsprings...I've tried feeding them about everything that could be considered food, and the results don't change much. "endsnip
> 
> Iridiophore formation occurs at the time of metamorphosis and attempting to stimulate thier production after that point is pretty useless. (There are a few anuran species whose tadpoles do have iridiophores but these tend to not be carried over (As I understand it) after metamorphosis because of the massive reorganization of the skin structure at metamorphosis.
> 
> 
> snip "Makes me wonder...What goes into the production of an iridiphore?"endsnip
> 
> If I remember correctly it is a guanine based crystalline structure
> 
> Ed


Any theories (at all) what is missing (or perhaps, in overabundance) in the (cb) life cycle that would or could make this happen?


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## Ed

snip "Did you read the whole description of my tad enclosures. I know i dont write well, please try to follow. They are all on the same water, 100 gallons/ 750 tadpoles on an overflow return sytem. This means that 100 gallons of water is filtered by a fluval 401 and uv sterilized 3 times per hour and circulated between 750 tads in 10 different underbed sterilites. i change 50 gallons of that water once a week. Some tads get bigger containers. "endsnip 

and snip I have panguana lamasi morphing about 1/2 adult size when raised in a square 5 in x 3in. or 4 inch round pvc or fish brooding containers. About 2 times the mass of tads grown in the exact same system and feeding regimen in 2 inch pvc. this "endsnip 

The second comment referring to the mass of tadpoles makes it look like there is twice the biomass of tadpoles in a system with smaller container and you are comparing it to a system with larger containers and one-half the biomass of the tadpoles. 
In your second post (top snipped area) it sounds like they are all on the same system but some are in larger containers in the system and some are in smaller container in the same system. Is my understanding on the top snipped area correct? 

In any case, there still maybe a hormonal effect because while the entire system may turn over 3x an hour this does not mean that each individual cup turns over at the same rate and due to the differences in turnover rate the tads in the smaller containers could be exposed to the hormones at either a significantly longer period of time (assuming the filtration takes it out, which is unlikely) or that it is exposed to higher concentrations (its own secretions plus those of the other tads due to a slower turnover rate). 


snip "I just measured my adult panguana lamasi. he is 3/4 inch. a tadpole raised in a 3x5inch rectangular fish brooder is over 1 inch in total length and just over 1/2 inch body length. A tadpole from the same clutch was raised in 2 inch pvc(same water depth) and that tad is about 7/8th inchlong and is about 3/8th inch total body length at metamorphisis. I have seen it over and over again."endsnip 

I have my doubts that this is a significant enough difference. 

snip " As for the tad w/ bloat as opposed to the others there is a reason that one in 13 would get it. It is not as healthy as the others considering they are all in the same 6x6 enclosure."endsnip i see it less when i`m up on feeding, have fresh vits and minerals and in tanks w/ more types of isopods and springs. i believe most of these to be dietary as per health of the adults. 
I have no papers to cite as i dont pay very much attention to them. I dont take notes on what i do but i do pay attention to what`s happening in my collection."endsnip 

If you don't take notes then the extremes tend to stand out and the averages are lost as the observer becomes densitized to them. This is why anecdotal evidence can really only be used when kept in context that it is invariably biased (including my own observations) and has less weight when compared to the literature. 

snip "When you can morph galacts, tincs and auratus out at 3/4 inch consistently you dont change your procedure because a paper says your froglets will be smaller if you raise them in the same water. "endsnip 

My comment was based on your statement about twice the body mass of the tadpoles in the smaller enclosure and see my comments above. 


snip "I believe they may secrete hormones if they are in visual contact and competition w/ siblings but ive seen no difference in size between tads raised in a 16oz cup and tads raised in 4 inch pvc w/ screening on the bottom and sharing 100g of water w/ 749 of his relatives if they are fed the same things and have the same temps. "endsnip 

The papers do not support the visual contact theory and in fact support that tadpoles in many anurans communicate chemically to the point where cannibalism can be directed to nonkin first. 

This is anecdotal and has to be kept in the context as pointed out above. 

I believe the statement that you have 750 tadpoles in 100 grams of water is a mistype as this would mean that they are in 100 milliliters of water (as water averages 1 ml/gram) which would be a density of 7.5 tadpoles to a ml. 

Ed


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## Ed

snip " i try to keep them as fat and as big as possible to supply them for a life under less than optimal conditions."endsnip 

And obesity may be conditioning them to not survive those stressors. 


snip "I cant test out field sweepings to improve color in my adults. Any parasites contracted could upset breeding and result in the loss of my breeders. "endsnip 

How routinely do you check your adults for parasites? Even captive adults fed only on a diet of cultured insects can come down with parasites. 

snip "As for skinniness of imports, how long have they not eaten after being caught till when we see them. "endsnip

I know I wasn't and I don't believe Chuck was commenting on imports but frogs in the actual wild. 

snip "Just because they are skinny in the wild doesnt mean it`s best for them. "endsnip

And we know fat animals (and people) have a lot of health problems that they wouldn't have if they weren't fat or obese. Obesity can significantly affect the life span of an animal. 

snip "They die young in the wild."endsnip 

And they don't in captivity? 

snip "there are tremendous hardships forced on them in the wild. droughts, parasites predators(which stress the animals if not kill them). "endsnip

And they are not exposed to stressors in captivity that can be equally as hard on the animal? 

snip "As for feeding every day, i see them roaming the tanks looking for food on the days i dont feed if they dont have springs or occasional isopods to chase after. I think it puts less strain on the animal to eat every day. They eat tons of small food."endsnip 

This is because they are genetically hardwired to eat at every opportunity. This way they can take advantages of period of feast and mitigate periods of less food. This is one of the reasons many of the frogs are obese. People feed them because they are actively foraging and look hungry. They will eat if you put food in front of them. 

snip " A pacman frog which eats large prey items may not need food every day and may die if fed every day."endsnip 

And they can be fed on a daily basis if you use small food items and do not exceed their caloric needs. 

snip "just because nutritional intake can be broke up to a weekly basisi doesnt mean you can cram all that food in on the last day and have it even out. i`m not saying 3-4 days a week isnt adequate,"endsnip

I haven't seen anyone say that in this thread or elsewhere on this forum. 

snip "i`m just saying it`s less than optimal. a large meal takes more energy to digest than small successive meals."endsnip 

Since when? When the metabolic costs are averaged the yield is the same because a large meal yields more calories. 

snip "also darts can eat in the morning eat at noon and eat again at 7 if you feed them 3 x. I really think they are different because of the small prey large # of food items they require. "endsnip 

As I calculated out in a different thread, a 5 gram dart frog (an adult tinct is about 5 grams) needs a little over 20 ffs a day to meet its daily resting metabolic needs at 77F. For normal activity it needs between 40 and 60 D. melanogaster at 77 F. 

snip "and there caloric intake being raised and the same vit and minerals needed for growth under hotter conditions? how can an animal need the same amount of calcium under that heightened growth as an animal under slower bone mass addition in cooler conditions. If it takes 3 months for an animal to hit 1 gram and 6 months for another animal to reach that 1 gram you`d think that they would need equal amounts of calcium in those different times to build the same bone mass minus the amount of calcium needed for normal metabolic functions."endsnip 

This really is a moot point as in general people oversupplement the frogs on items like calcium particuarly if you supplement the ffs with each feeding (as per the study done by Susan Donoghue an exotic animal nutrionist and vet ). This occurs to the point where the frogs can lead to toxic levels of D3 (which can cause liver damage and bloat in the frogs) and oversupplementation of calcium which can cause conditional trace deficiencies in other minerals. For a required mineral, calcium has one of the narrowest tolerated ranges in all studied vertebrates. (for the exact numbers see the Nuttrion Chapter in Mader's new book). While we do not have the exact RDAs for the amphibians they respond well to the levels worked out for other vertebrates over the years. 

Ed


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## c'est ma

Not to interrupt a very informative exchange, but I'd like to ask a question about the idea of tads growing in relationship to the size of the container in which they're kept. We've always sort of figured that a tad that would naturally be deposited in a brom axil might do well in a relatively small amount of water, whereas one from a species that deposits tads in pools might require a somewhat larger volume. Does anyone make a distinction like this?

I do realize that the "pools" in which some tads might be deposited can be very small, and am also aware of the fact that generally, water quality (and bio filter) is harder to maintain the smaller the volume you're dealing with...Also, that the pools may have tad competition, whereas the brom axils generally would not.


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## Roadrunner

Well since i`m up against the whole of amphibian literature i guess i`ll stand down from this argument as i have nothing to back it but personal experience.
i do however have some parting comments.
no, i see differences consistantly with tadpoles in larger containers morphing larger given all the same water recirculated, consistantly over years of my own observational research.
what i have experienced from people purchasing their first frogs,it`s a rough transitiion and they can loose weight during acclimating to a new tank and ive seen that fat, not obese, frogs acclimate better. they have more energy for the transition. i TRY to keep them as big and fat as possible.
Ed, did you ever buy frogs from me? Have i wronged you in some way? i`ve had 10 years of breeding specifically dart frogs, a lot of which are breeding and still doing well today. I do get fecals done on my frogs and they come out clean. field sweepings generallly have a lot more parasites than captive raised bugs.
as for digestion 1 large meal(hydei) has much larger(oops smaller) surface area to interact w/ the stomach acids and takes longer to digest than 10 springtails. 
snipAs I calculated out in a different thread, a 5 gram dart frog (an adult tinct is about 5 grams) needs a little over 20 ffs a day to meet its daily resting metabolic needs at 77F. For normal activity it needs between 40 and 60 D. melanogaster at 77 F. snip. have you tried this by feeding an adult tinc 40 - 60 melonagaster a day for a year at 77f and weighing it? it`s good to calculate, better to do it for real if you are giving this as an acceptable solid guideline for feeding adult(5g) tincs.

i meant 750 tads in 100 gallons.

allright were any of these studies on calcium done on dart frogs? i dont see anything outside general vertebrates papers cited. an animal needs a set amount of calcium to gain bone mass to achieve a certain size no matter how long it takes. a frog growing quicker will need more calcium and vit trace elements whatever to achieve that higher metabolic rate and development in a shorter period of time. whether or not we dust too much

and lastly for feeding. if a dart frog is looking for food, hardwired to eat at every oppurtunity,how often do you think they go 2 days w/out eating in the wild?


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## Darren Meyer

I think that one of the major issues is finding what works best for the individual . And that all comes with experince learned over many many years as Aaron mentioned .You really don't need science to see the results he has had through out the years . And the same goes with Ed's results with his methods , science included . Each has shared their own personal experinces, thus we have as group a jumping off point to gather information from eachother and find what works best for us a hobbiest . Which in my frog room my own experince and others input has taught me what works best "for me" . You have to find what each indivdual frog likes , what their personaltys are so to speak . To group ALL PDF'S into one group and say this is what "it " takes to make them happy, healthy, hopping and of course pooping and breeding you have to do this is BS . All we can do and say is this is what I've found works best for me .............................. then let the inexperinced learn from us ,and find what works best for them . 
I am a big fan of Science , I learn from it all of the time , but isen't science always learning also ?
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## Catfur

My personal vote, as to the bottom line, is: to those that are producing big, healthy froglets that grow to normal sized, heathy adults, keep on doing what it is that you are doing. And to those that are not producing the healthy frogs, we need to listen to, and learn from, those who are doing the right thing (while I haven't personally encountered any of the stunted, or less healthy frogs people talk about, I have heard of many with such problems). I think that the scientific method really needs to learn about just what many people call "success." (as far as captive herp husbandry goes). And at the same time, those with what we call "success" )who aren't already up to speed on the subject) need to learn a little of the scientific method to better objectively communicate and share that "success."

The more we are all talking the same language (even if it is English), the better chance we have of making a common goal and reaching it (healthy frogs).

As the old Army saying goes: If it's stupid but it works, than it ain't stupid. But the rest of us could stand to understand just what is happening as well.

<edit> To Chuck: I haven't personally encountered these sub par frogs you talk about, but I hear of people all the time with these problems. I am glad that you brought this subject up, and I think all of us as a hobby need to work together to make sure that we are propagating the healthiest frogs. </edit>


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## Ed

Hi Diane,

Snip "Not to interrupt a very informative exchange, but I'd like to ask a question about the idea of tads growing in relationship to the size of the container in which they're kept. We've always sort of figured that a tad that would naturally be deposited in a brom axil might do well in a relatively small amount of water, whereas one from a species that deposits tads in pools might require a somewhat larger volume. Does anyone make a distinction like this? "endsnip 

Typically this distinction has not been made but this doesn't mean that the husbandry techniques do not address it.. In situations like this, it isn't often the larger volume needed but an increased turnover of the water which simulates the larger volume of water. But its a point that probably needs some more attention. 

Ed


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## Ed

snip no, i see differences consistantly with tadpoles in larger containers morphing larger given all the same water recirculated, consistantly over years of my own observational research. "endsnip 

The problem with the lack of notes crops up again. As I pointed out above the obsevor becomes desensitized to the trend. Everyone has this happen, I have had it happen to me. 

snip "what i have experienced from people purchasing their first frogs,it`s a rough transitiion and they can loose weight during acclimating to a new tank and ive seen that fat, not obese, frogs acclimate better. they have more energy for the transition. i TRY to keep them as big and fat as possible. "endsnip

How are you making the distinction between fat and obese? Fat is stored in the body cavity in pads (unlike the distributions seen in mammals) and a "fat" frog can have fat bodies that are compressing the internal organs. 

snip "Ed, did you ever buy frogs from me? Have i wronged you in some way?"endnsnip 

Nope and nope. I don't have an axe to grind or a beef with you. 

snip "i`ve had 10 years of breeding specifically dart frogs, a lot of which are breeding and still doing well today. I do get fecals done on my frogs and they come out clean. field sweepings generallly have a lot more parasites than captive raised bugs. "endsnip 

Good and this is correct with respect to the field sweepings. 

snip "as for digestion 1 large meal(hydei) has much larger surface area to interact w/ the stomach acids and takes longer to digest than 10 springtails. "endsnip 

While this is how it appears to work on the surface of it, this is not how it works in reality. The larger the insect the lower the ratio of surface area to volume which means that there is actually less surface area that needs to be acted upon. In general, many animals including amphibians will select larger prey items due to the higher caloric returns of capture and digestion. There are of course other factors that enter into it, such as palatability of the prey item which can consist of many factors including how much it struggles as well as novelty but this is the general rule. 

snipAs I calculated out in a different thread, a 5 gram dart frog (an adult tinct is about 5 grams) needs a little over 20 ffs a day to meet its daily resting metabolic needs at 77F. For normal activity it needs between 40 and 60 D. melanogaster at 77 F. snip.

have you tried this by feeding an adult tinc 40 - 60 melonagaster a day for a year at 77f and weighing it? it`s good to calculate, better to do it for real if you are giving this as an acceptable solid guideline for feeding adult(5g) tincs. endsnip 

While I feed a little heavier to deal with the result of nonescape proof cages at work but in essence yes as we have a nutritionist on staff that has worked out the nutritional guidelines for the animals (she is readjusting the reptile house diets now). And its not been for a year but for over ten years... The point to remember if you try to feed out an exact number of flies, this is difficult as the enclosures we typically use are complex and usually not 100% ff escape proof (or the flies move into a region where the frogs can't access them) but this is the ballpark of how much they should be eating. 
In any case I wasn't the one who established it as the guidelines. I suggest you review the nutrition chapter and associated references in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. 

snip "i meant 750 tads in 100 gallons. "endsnip

That makes a little more sense. 


snip "allright were any of these studies on calcium done on dart frogs?"endsnip 

Yes

snip "i dont see anything outside general vertebrates papers cited."endsnip 

So? In almost all of the vertebrates studied (in at least all of the ones I have looked up) they respond to the models established in previous studies which is why those references are commonly seen and cited. If there are issues seen then nutritionists will tweak the diets to deal with the issues. 

snip "an animal needs a set amount of calcium to gain bone mass to achieve a certain size no matter how long it takes. a frog growing quicker will need more calcium and vit trace elements whatever to achieve that higher metabolic rate and development in a shorter period of time. whether or not we dust too much "endsnip 

If there is insufficient material for bone growth, then bone growth cannot occur or is reduced. An increased metabolism can fuel an increased rate of growth but it doesn't mean that it always will. The building blocks have to be there or else the feedback pathways that control the growth prevent the growth. 


snip "and lastly for feeding. if a dart frog is looking for food, hardwired to eat at every oppurtunity,how often do you think they go 2 days w/out eating in the wild?"endsnip 

As I stated at least once before, the frog is hardwired to eat at every opportunity because it doesn't know where the next meal is coming from... obviously this is an evolutionary adaptation to meeting metabolic needs as it maynot be able to find sufficient food items to meet its metabolic needs on a daily basis. I think this occurs with a regular frequency. In any case if I remember correctly frogs in the following study were found to have empty stomachs (and yes it involved dart frogs). 

Toft, C. A. 1980. Feeding ecology of Panamanian litter anurans: patterns 
in diet and foraging mode. Journal of Herpetology. 15 139-144. 


Ed


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## Roadrunner

as for the tadpoles, why would i want to skew results in my own head that bigger containers mean different size froglets. this means i have to cut 800 pieces of 4 inch diameter pvc down to 4 inch pieces and expand my tad system another 100 gallons. it makes no sense. it creates a hell of a lot of work for me. whether it`s the increased surface area for the normal microlife they eat to grow on or whatever. i dont want it to be true. i really wish it wasnt.
My girlfriend, who gets her phd in microbiology next month from University at Buffalo, told me the problem w/ papers is that it`s really hard to exactly recreate those circumstances in which the original experiment was done under and i shouldnt take them into consideration towards what happens here. lol she usually edits my writing for me as i can sometimes sound like a jerk if she doesnt explain to me how my writing can be misconstreud. she couldnt keep up w/ this one
i`m glad it`s no beef or i was going to have to start gettin dirty. just a joke sorry. 
i respect all the scientific literature too. i dont trust it until i put it to test here though. I have worked w/ a lot of field techs and project leaders on a bunch of botany and geology and herpetology etc. projects all over the country and i have seen the work they do. i had the geologist at big bend nat`l park trying to tell me the wavelite found at grapevine spring was columnar basalts, ive had to tell botany project leaders how their models of testing didnt hold up to what we experienced at sites and had her include species inventory and other considerations to her data interpretations for clearcutting in ellington, missouri.
as for animals die in captivity too, what i was stating is that we should strive for optimal conditions in captivity, whatever those may be, not wild conditions. we should try to enhance their diet w/ as much as we can by way of color enhancers, to mimic the wide array, and brightness of colors found in their wild counterparts. but we should strive for optimal.
like chuck said he had a 18 yr old pair of frogs that produced 30 a year. i have a 9 year old bicolor pair, going on their 7th breeding season, who produce about 50 frogs every 3 weeks for about 6-8 months out of the year. i`m proud of that. they are spectacular frogs that still leap for the feeding cup everytime i feed. 
people will do this for different reasons. i`m personally scared as hell that all this is going to be gone before i can get down there to see a lot of them. i just got so fed up one day w/ this species going extinct and that species not found in 10 years i decided i was going to do everything i can to get enough cb frogs out there that they wouldnt fall into extinction, ya right, i was young and stupid back then. i never considered anything about the wild. i couldnt study them in the wild to find out. i then started experimenting and doing all i could to find optimal captive conditions. i tried different temps different setups and different types of water etc, etc for years. i know it`s gambling but i base my conclusions on how well my adults are still doing after all these years of production. most all of them are still doing and producing well after almost 10 years and they produce a lot.
a man can live in jail till a ripe old age if he avoids the conflicts etc. does this mean he had a fulfilling life? no, i know some miserable old people. i mark my success and their wellbeing by repetitive breeding and no signs of illness or stress or stereotypical behaviors. 
people will do what their motives call for. 
ed, this has been a great talk, i really like the grilling you gave me. it has been very informative. i hope to have more chats w/ you in the future. you are a well versed intelligent individual and after looking up your posts i see youve contributed a lot to this board. keep up the great work!
now i have to get to the animals, i cant spend as much time writing today as i did yesterday.


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## Roadrunner

oh, and i screwed up the ff/springtail thing, i couldnt keep up w/ you. 1 ff and 10 or whatever springtails = same mass/weight and calories. springtails would have increased surface area for digestive juices to work on. think of eating 1 big matza ball w/out chewing and a sucking down a pound of spaghetti. which would digest better( the 1 lb. matza ball being a ff and the spaghetti being the springtails and both being equal weight/mass and calories, i guess). i`m still not convinced i`m right but it just seems that a big lump of matza would be harder to digest to the core.


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## mike

I would like to thank Aaron & Ed for the time they put into this thread. It has been very informative. Keep it up. Thanks
Mike


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## elmoisfive

As a followup to the discussion on the impact of container/water pool size on froglet morphing size, I wanted to throw out an observation. Here is a photo of two panguana lamasi froglets that came out of the water on the same day....










The tadpole on the left was reared in a film cannister inside the vivarium by the parents and the tadpole on the right was hand raised in 500 ml of water in a gladware container. The film canister was about half full with water but I don’t know the exact volume (I’ll have to check that later tonight when I’m at home), The developmental timeline for both tadpoles was essentially the same 

Now I’m well aware that besides container size, other variables include temperature (the viv runs a few degrees warmer, water quality and frequency of changing (~20% change per week for the hand raised tad versus none besides keeping the water level constant for the viv tad) and feeding (infertile eggs and drowned FFs for the viv tad versus predominantly tadpole bites for the hand raised tad). So this is by no means a controlled study. I’ve also observed the same size differential for panguana lamasi and standard imitators that were raised in small bromeliads versus their hand raised counterparts once again noting the caveats about temperature, water and food.

The viv raised froglets have grown up well but had considerable catch up to do compared to their hand raised counterparts that morphed out at ~ ½ adult size.

I plan on introducing some larger containers into the panguana lamasi viv to see if I induce the parents to raise tads in film cannisters and the larger enclosures to see if I can more effectively isolate the size variable. 

Bill


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## Roadrunner

allright, only one more, i promise. i just witnessed the same thing w/ my panguana`s. my girlfriend noticed a little froglet on the wall of the viv, and then i found 2 more. same thing noted. smaller than either tads in 2 inch pvc under the system formerly stated or 4 inch pvc.


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## Dancing frogs

An observation with my imitator...and I'm not the only imitator keeper to notice this...
Parent raised froglets morph out way smaller than hand raised...but I've also noticed the parent raised froglets seem to grow a little faster, catching up with the hand raised ones pretty quickly...
No writen documents to back that up...just what I have observed...


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## Dendrobait

mike said:


> I would like to thank Aaron & Ed for the time they put into this thread. It has been very informative. Keep it up. Thanks
> Mike


Amen to that!


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## Roadrunner

just some quick weights as i think the 40-60 ff`s avg sounds like a reasonable estimate for feeding for a 5g frog. these are weights for adult breeders, surinam cob, powder blues, citronella, dwrf tincs and turq/brnze auratus are all 4-5 years old and the super blues and mints closer to 1 - 1 1/2yrs old.


surinam cobalt m - 5.5g fem 8g
powder blues - m - 6g fem 9g
mints 8-9.5g
citronella 10g m + fem
dwarf fr. guiana - m - 2.5g fem - 3g
super blues m - 3.5g fem - 5.5g
turquoise/brnze m - 4g fem - 5g


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## zaroba

just out of curiosity, has anybody put any thought into inbreeding possibly resulting in lower quality frogs?

imagine a batch of 10 Darklands gets imported. 2 people buy 5 each and start breeding them to get them started in the hobby. they have offspring, others buy and breed to get more in the hobby, then those babies get baught and bred as well, and the whole process of buy, breed, sell repeats over and over.

several years later, thier might be 200 or so Darklands in the dart community, but they've all origionated from the first 10 imported and been inbred repeatidly by people believeing thier helping the dart community by making more available.

over time, nearly every animal species will show mutations/infertility or other problems after many inbreedings (for people its only a few or so generations, for rats its something like 20 generations).

what if that time has happened for frogs and its resulting in the 'poor quality frogs'


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## Dancing frogs

I had brought that up earlier...
I think I had heard a while back somewhere between 5-9 generations before "stuff" starts happening...
I also remember reading (I think it was a european hobbiest/website) that someone had noticed weaker and weaker eggs with each generation away from wild caught.


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## zaroba

the weaker eggs isen't too much of a surprise.

lack of the excersise, variety of foods, and other natural occurences would probably result in the eggs being designed with a lower quality simply because they live in unstressful conditions where the eggs wont be at risk.

just like a free roaming chicken has stronger and thicker shelled eggs then a chicken kept in a cage all its life.


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## defaced

But that's not a result of inbreeding, that's a result of husbandry. 

This'll be interesting to compair the weight of my Dwarf Cobalts to Aarons as mine are offspring of his - I think - I'll have to get the story straight.


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## chuckpowell

Well I'm off work again so I guess I'll make a few more comments. The discussion between Aaron and Ed has been very interesting and both make good point, but scientists and hobbyist have to work together. I've seen on this discussion Ed saying you have to have a study to make sure you see what you see. That's correct. And Aaron saying I don't have time for the studies but this works for me and works well. That correct also. Many scientific studies are based on observations that are not scientific, but are later confirmed using scientific methods, and every hobbyist could benifit from studying whats been learned about nutrition and health from scientific studies. Neither group should discount the other. 

In breeding shouldn't be that big a problem. Most of the frogs we keep are only a few generations from wc, but we're still see problems. Husbandry, husbandry, husbandry. This forum can help, but it takes a different mind set that many hobbyists don't have. Not out for a fast buck, not out to see how fast you can grow up the frogs, not out to see how quickly and how often you can get them to breed. Also we don't know what optium conditions for these animals are and at least at the group (subgenus?) level, I believe, thier requirements will found to be different. 

One last comments from the picture posted earlier of the two froglets - one larger and one smaller. Is larger better? I'm not sure it is. Is the color of the smaller better? Looks like it to me. So which frog is better?

Best,

Chuck


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## zaroba

defaced said:


> But that's not a result of inbreeding, that's a result of husbandry.
> 
> This'll be interesting to compair the weight of my Dwarf Cobalts to Aarons as mine are offspring of his - I think - I'll have to get the story straight.


yea, that example would be.


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## c'est ma

Chuck said:


> One last comments from the picture posted earlier of the two froglets - one larger and one smaller. Is larger better? I'm not sure it is.


Exactly what I've thought while reading this thread. Obviously these species exhibit the ability to develop and morph at different rates and sizes, which would certainly be adaptive in the wild. If we raise all our frogs under "ideal" conditions--plenty of food, good water, no competition, no temperature extremes, etc.--there may be a danger of inadvertantly selecting against the natural plasticity that makes these frogs so successful in their native habitats...

I'm not saying that we should NOT do our best to maximize favorable conditions when artificially rearing, of course. But it might be just as important to allow for some parental care and morphing out in the viv for each species. As different hobbyists have different goals, perhaps we tend to achieve this naturally anyway.


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## Ed

snip "My personal vote, as to the bottom line, is: to those that are producing big, healthy froglets that grow to normal sized, heathy adults, keep on doing what it is that you are doing."endsnip

Missed this one the first time around. At this time the vast majority of us do not know if this is what we are doing as there isn't any documented follow-up of the frogs at maturity. (Frog Tracks will help with this). However this is also a problem because post metamorphic nutrition and husbandry can have an effect on the size and shape of the adults (for example subchronic levels of MBD can cause slight bone deformation). 

snip "And to those that are not producing the healthy frogs, we need to listen to, and learn from, those who are doing the right thing (while I haven't personally encountered any of the stunted, or less healthy frogs people talk about, I have heard of many with such problems)."endsnip 

Same comments as above apply. In addition, to work out what is wrong and what is right there needs to be some level of documentation and reproduciability. Otherwise you can end up with the equivalent of a lot of urban folktales about the husbandry of the animal. 


snip " I think that the scientific method really needs to learn about just what many people call "success." (as far as captive herp husbandry goes)."endsnip

Grin, some of do and one of the things I tend to look at is to see why something works or doesn't work. Often there is a comparable item in the literature which gives you clues on how to get around it or manipulate it. For example how many people here are aware that in at least one dart frog (D. pumilio) they can return not only to thier territory through olfaction and if I remember correctly locate specific plants in thier home range through olfaction (see Forester, Don C. and Anthony Wisnieski. 1991. The significance of airborne olfactory cues to the recognition of home area by the dart-poison frog Dendrobates pumilio. Journal of Herpetology. 25 502-504.) . There has only been a little study done on this to date If you consider this, then this can have implications in husbandry of the frog as it shows that they not only can detect thier own chemical cues but they maybe able to detect them from other frogs. I would also suspect that this is possible in some of the other species and this maybe one of the reasons we see attempts to escape....


Ed


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## Ed

snip "as for the tadpoles, why would i want to skew results in my own head that bigger containers mean different size froglets. this means i have to cut 800 pieces of 4 inch diameter pvc down to 4 inch pieces and expand my tad system another 100 gallons. it makes no sense. it creates a hell of a lot of work for me. whether it`s the increased surface area for the normal microlife they eat to grow on or whatever. i dont want it to be true. i really wish it wasnt. "endsnip 

Its often not a matter of choice but the way our brains work. When you do a task over and over again, your brain takes the data from this and if the things are similar enough they can be filtered by the brain, it is only when there is something out of the ordinary in the expected trend that your brain sits up and notices. For an example (not saying it applies to you), as the tads metamorph, you move them into the container with the other metapmorphs and if some are bigger from the bigger container you note this and is some look smaller from the smaller container look smaller you note this but the ones that are more "normal" in size just get passed over. (If your brain didn't work this way we would get swamped by everything in our envirmoment). This is why the documentation can be important. 

The difference in size can also be an artifact of the container shape or placement as I noted above with the water flow. For example, what if it isn't the container's size but the rate of water exchange in the container. A larger container can have a larger surface area allowing a greater exchange of water for filtration.... 


snip "y girlfriend, who gets her phd in microbiology next month from University at Buffalo, told me the problem w/ papers is that it`s really hard to exactly recreate those circumstances in which the original experiment was done under and i shouldnt take them into consideration towards what happens here."endnsnip

I don't agree with this, you do not have to recreate the exact circumstance for the data to be appliciable or to see that it is the same effect. 

snip " i`m glad it`s no beef or i was going to have to start gettin dirty. just a joke sorry. "endsnip

Often when people get questioned on thier beliefs they think there is a beef when there isn't. 
In some cases the observations are correct but the conclusions are not correct and in this case the literature can help move the issue forward. 

snip "i respect all the scientific literature too. i dont trust it until i put it to test here though."endnsnip 

It depends on the tests were done and documented. If the test looks like it was shoddily done then the data is probably shoddy. Check the literature in the bibliography to make sure they are making the right connections. Sometimes, a bad idea gets propegated through a number of papers. 

Snip" me the wavelite found at grapevine spring was columnar basalts, ive had to tell botany project leaders how their models of testing didnt hold up to what we experienced at sites and had her include species inventory and other considerations to her data interpretations for clearcutting in ellington, missouri. "endsnip

If I understand what you are saying here then you are correct, there are incompetant people in every profession and a title doesn't mean they really know what they are talking about or that they are even competent. Because they have a title, people often believe thier information even when it is incorrect, misleading etc. This is the major reason I don't put on my signature that I am the Lead Keeper in the Herpetology Dept for a Zoo. I want the statements and data weighed without without any title bias being added into the mix. 

snip "as for animals die in captivity too, what i was stating is that we should strive for optimal conditions in captivity, whatever those may be, not wild conditions. we should try to enhance their diet w/ as much as we can by way of colo"endsnip 

While this is a good idea, it may not be in the best long term interest of the animal. To me, optimal conditions are those that maintain the natural behaviors of the animals in question while keeping the animal as healthy as possible. Optimal conditions in captivity are typically go through a number of stages (which I have discussed elsewhere) and typically have a limited goal of keeping the animal alive and breed it.... This is not the best for the long term goals for the animal. 


snip "like chuck said he had a 18 yr old pair of frogs that produced 30 a year. i have a 9 year old bicolor pair, going on their 7th breeding season, who produce about 50 frogs every 3 weeks for about 6-8 months out of the year. i`m proud of that. they are spectacular frogs that still leap for the feeding cup everytime i feed. "endsnip 

And I had a group of tincts (that were kept as a large group) that bred for over 14 years. 

snip " if he avoids the conflicts etc. does this mean he had a fulfilling life? no, i know some miserable old people. i mark my success and their wellbeing by repetitive breeding and no signs of illness or stress or stereotypical behaviors. endsnip

This is along the lines of what I have commented on. This means that you are in stage 4 of the 5 stages I maintain we need to strive for. The final stage is maintaining all of the natual behaviors in the frogs. 

snip "ed, this has been a great talk, i really like the grilling you gave me. it has been very informative. i hope to have more chats w/ you in the future. you are a well versed intelligent individual and after looking up your posts i see youve contributed a lot to this board. keep up the great work! "endsnip

Thank you. I don't have an issue with your method and if you read back was pointing out that the conclusions may be where the issue lies.. 

Ed


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## Ed

snip "oh, and i screwed up the ff/springtail thing, i couldnt keep up w/ you. 1 ff and 10 or whatever springtails = same mass/weight and calories s.pringtails would have increased surface area for digestive juices to work on. think of eating 1 big matza ball w/out chewing and a sucking down a pound of spaghetti. which would digest better( the 1 lb. matza ball being a ff and the spaghetti being the springtails and both being equal weight/mass and calories, i guess). i`m still not convinced i`m right but it just seems that a big lump of matza would be harder to digest to the core."endsnip 


Here is a different way to look at it, 10 springtails have more indigestiable items than a similarly weighted amount of ffs (and melanogaster have more indigestiable material that hydei). This indigestiable material is mainly the surface area of the food item. So while there is more surface area exposed to the digestive fluids, there is a smaller return of nutrients for the investment to digest them. 

Ed


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## Ed

snip "just out of curiosity, has anybody put any thought into inbreeding possibly resulting in lower quality frogs?"endsnip 

Yes there has been discussion on this for decades particuarly with respect to SLS 

see 
HESELHAUS, R. 1983. The problem of match legs in propagated Dendrobatids Zum Problem der Streichholzvorderbeine bei Dendrobatiden-nachzuchten. Herpetofauna. 5 (26):22-24.

Krintler, K. 1988. Observations concerning match legs in dendrobatids and hylids Beobachtungen zum Problem der Streichholzbeine bei Dendrobatiden und Hyliden. Herpetofauna. 52 30-32.

SCHMIDT, M. 1985. Deformations among Dendrobatids as a result of inbreeding and deficient feeding. Mißbildungen bei Dendrobatiden als Folge von Inzucht und falscher Ernährung. Das Aquarium. 187 33-35.

However with the report of the disruption of the egg development, we have to be able to rule out other factors like endocrine disrupters before we move onto inbreeding as the issue. 

Ed


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## Ed

snip "Well I'm off work again so I guess I'll make a few more comments. The discussion between Aaron and Ed has been very interesting and both make good point, but scientists and hobbyist have to work together. I've seen on this discussion Ed saying you have to have a study to make sure you see what you see. That's correct. And Aaron saying I don't have time for the studies but this works for me and works well. That correct also. Many scientific studies are based on observations that are not scientific, but are later confirmed using scientific methods, and every hobbyist could benifit from studying whats been learned about nutrition and health from scientific studies. Neither group should discount the other"endsnip

On this exact topic. There is a researcher at a university who is working on a number of these issues with dart frogs. They are working to document issues that affect egg and tadpole developement like temperature, pH, size of enclosures etc partly based on what we claim works in the hobby and partly what is reported from the natural history. Due to budget cuts, they lack the funds to aquire some new founder stock but if anyone would like to donate some frogs, eggs or tadpoles they can raise to keep working on these items let me know. 

The data they come out with is still in the preliminary stages but as they build on thier work they will get to the more advanced items we are discussing today. None of the animals are targeted for terminal research (although in the studies they do loose eggs and as with our care some tadpoles do die) and they keep all of the animals until they die naturally. 
These are publications that can help our hobby and a chance where we can help the research happen. 
If anyone has some extra frogs (common stuff like auratus, azureus, tincts are perfect) and wants to help out or has more questions shoot me a pm as I don't want to hijack the thread. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs

Here's a thought...

Culling (active) = Selective breeding :shock: 

Something for y'all to chew on!


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## Dendrobait

Dancing frogs said:


> Here's a thought...
> 
> Culling (active) = Selective breeding :shock:
> 
> Something for y'all to chew on!


So how do we know we are choosing the ones that would make it in nature? Even passive culling is in a way selective breeding. Look at hatchery raised trout.

Has their been any study relating to froglet size vs mortality rates? I'm guessing in the wild morphing out small may not be a death sentence as it can be in captivity. Their are probably far more springtail sized creatures within reach of metamorphed darts than their are fruitfly sized ones so the large ones may not have too much of an advantage.

I think of all the selection problems hobbyists face parental care is probably going to be the hardest to tackle. Be honest. If you spent 8 months to a whole year raising up a healthy, vibrant pair of frogs only to find they refuse to deposit tadpoles what are you going to do? Raise the eggs artificially? Sell them to someone else? Keep them as display animals the rest of their lives? I've toyed the idea of several different frogs for my viv/paludarium project and a big reason darts continue to ride along is due to parental care behavior. If I keep darts that is one thing I definetly want from my frogs.

Ed: Is it necessarily a good thing to give the frogs larger food items thinking they wll be passing less undigestable material through their guts? Killifish hobbyists often claim feeding a diet too rich in worms causes problems("bloat" seems to be most commonly associated). Therefore they will rotate feedings of rich stuff with things like daphnia which are mostly shell. And of course many fast their fish once a week believing it is good for them to clear out their digestive tract. I have not heard of any science behind the last one though.


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## Roadrunner

ed,
as for the my girlfriend said comment, that was kind of a joke too long to explain here, about crossed conversations we were having. sorry.
as for the beef thing i just never had anyone who had the time or energy to cut up a whole, very long letter like that and thought there might be a reason behind it. after i saw you were a curator and the things you were citing i new differently.
as for bad info in every profession yes and i knew one wrong bit of info like dust every day and not mentiong dont let it be nekton w/ too much vit a and there goes your collection. i keep getting told by my girlfriends professors to keep data and publish but i dont have the time, hopefully some day. the video is first.
as for wild type behaviors, my adults get tads past me all the time and i find froglets often in the adults tanks. i wont however house more than 1 pair per tank so i`ll never get wrestling. i`ve got captive pumilio ready to breed 2nd generation and they are parent raised and ive raised successive generations of dwarfs(because they matured earliest) to 7th generation to test inbreeding problems and never had any to the best of my knowledge. future pairs produced less but i was caring for a lot more frogs by that time and there production was equal to the 4 year old pair when the 7th gen started. so what actually qualifies for stage 5? full range including wrestling or other things like the homing instinct you mentioned?


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## chuckpowell

Snip: Culling (active) = Selective breeding :shock: 
Something for y'all to chew on![/quote]

Using this statement as background then any frogs that dies results in selective breeding. Also who said anything about active culling. 

Snip: So how do we know we are choosing the ones that would make it in nature? 

Why do we want frogs that would make it in nature. Once we start keeping a frog, and certainly their offspring, can they be placed back in the wild and be expected do as well as wild animals. 

In any case these are the wrong questions. We need to be asking What conditions are best for the frogs and how can we achieve them. How can we produce future generations that look identical to wild caught animals, but are healthier. We're not doing our job right until we can do this. But, we don't know what the best conditions are for our frogs, so I'd expect few of us are doing what's best for them. 

Best,

Chuck


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## c'est ma

Yes. Theoretically it would be correct to maintain captives with certain levels of certain parasites (even pathogens) or, at least, occasional exposure to these, so that any natural resistance would not be lost. Practically, of course, this would be very difficult to do in captivity where parasite/pathogen levels easily skyrocket...also, organisms at that level have their own little community dynamics we'd have no idea how to emulate...

Also, maybe we should simulate hurricanes from time to time... 

But, that said, Brian's remark about active culling equaling selection was what I was getting at by stating that choosing to breed only large, robust individuals (or adults that were once large, robust morphers) might tend to eliminate the genetic range of variability that exists in the wild. I'm pretty sure someone mentioned active culling; if not in this thread, then in some others...


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## Ed

Snip So how do we know we are choosing the ones that would make it in nature? Even passive culling is in a way selective breeding. Look at hatchery raised trout. "endsnip 

We don't for many reasons, but then we are also not doing anything to ensure that we could even try to determine which ones could be the ones who could survive in the wild. We keep species that live in leaf litter in heavily planted enclosures, typically feed them excessively on a monoculture diet and minimize (if not eliminate) any seasonal variability. This is just some of the potential issues with our husbandry..... 

snip "Has their been any study relating to froglet size vs mortality rates?"endsnip 

I am unaware of any specifically for dendrobatid frogs but in amphibians in general and anurans in particular there is not only an increase in mortality in small metamorphs as well as an increased length of time before reaching sexual maturity. But this is the wrong question to be asking at this time. The first question we should be asking is how does the average size of the captive metamorphs compare to metamorphs of the same species in the wild. If ours are larger then we are exerting a selective pressure on the frogs that may not be in thier best interest... 

snip " I'm guessing in the wild morphing out small may not be a death sentence as it can be in captivity. Their are probably far more springtail sized creatures within reach of metamorphed darts than their are fruitfly sized ones so the large ones may not have too much of an advantage."endsnip 

It may not be in the wild as there is a greater selection of food items available. But you need to keep in mind that smaller frogs are more restricted than a slightly larger froglet. The larger froglet can eat larger prey items. In species like dendrobatid frogs, the frogs typically will very small prey items even as adults... 

snip "Ed: Is it necessarily a good thing to give the frogs larger food items thinking they wll be passing less undigestable material through their guts? "endsnip 

I don't think I was making that connection at all. We were discussing which typically provides a greater amount of nutrition. 

snip "Killifish hobbyists often claim feeding a diet too rich in worms causes problems("bloat" seems to be most commonly associated). Therefore they will rotate feedings of rich stuff with things like daphnia which are mostly shell. And of course many fast their fish once a week believing it is good for them to clear out their digestive tract. I have not heard of any science behind the last one though"endnsnip

I wouldn't be too concerned with the difference between arthropods as they all tend to be moderately high in fiber unlike worms. With respect to the worms and the fish, without necropsies and nutritional workups on the fish I have to say that this could be due to it, or it could be due to an anomoly that is due to something else but has been connected to worms.. 
Worms to some extent have been given a bad rap as a staple for decades (in some of my fish books that were written in the 1940s and 1950s the same claims are made for tubifex that are now made for Enchytraeus and Lumbriculus variegatus and daphinia are referred to as laxatives). In general, earthworms that have been raised in calcium rich soil are the only feeder invertebrate that has a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio and the one study I am aware of using them as the staple for rearing bullfrogs lists an earthworm diet causing unspecified diseases of white muscle. 


Ed


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## Ed

Hi Aaron,

Snip "as for the my girlfriend said comment, that was kind of a joke too long to explain here, about crossed conversations we were having."endsnip

No problem.


snip "as for the beef thing i just never had anyone who had the time or energy to cut up a whole, very long letter like that and thought there might be a reason behind it. after i saw you were a curator and the things you were citing i new differently."endsnip

I tend to cut them up so its easier to keep track of the multiple ideas or comments. Its too easy to lose them otherwise. 
Just to keep the record clear, I'm not a curator.... Just the lead keeper, so I have people I have to supervise to some extent and a curator to supervise me.. 

snip "as for bad info in every profession yes and i knew one wrong bit of info like dust every day and not mentiong dont let it be nekton w/ too much vit a and there goes your collection. i keep getting told by my girlfriends professors to keep data and publish but i dont have the time, hopefully some day. the video is first. "endsnip

Even if you start noting down what you see in a log book it can make a big difference. It gets addictive. Once you get started and you find your first trends, you get hooked. 

snip " so what actually qualifies for stage 5? full range including wrestling or other things like the homing instinct you mentioned"endsnip 

I'll repeat the stages here (the wording changes a little from time to time as I try to remember it) but here we go

stage 1 simply keeping the frogs alive for any length of time
stage 2 keeping the frogs alive long enough to reproduce 
stage 3 reproducing enough frogs that we are replacing or exceeding the ones that die 
stage 4 maximizing the frogs longevity while meeting stages 1-3 
stage 5 meeting the criteria for stages 1-4 while maintaining all of the natural behaviors seen in the frogs in the wild. 

Ed


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## chuckpowell

Ed,

I've never seen it put this way, but an excellent rundown of the different stages of the hobby. Thanks Ed. 



Ed said:


> stage 1 simply keeping the frogs alive for any length of time
> stage 2 keeping the frogs alive long enough to reproduce
> stage 3 reproducing enough frogs that we are replacing or exceeding the ones that die
> stage 4 maximizing the frogs longevity while meeting stages 1-3
> stage 5 meeting the criteria for stages 1-4 while maintaining all of the natural behaviors seen in the frogs in the wild.


But once again we have a great discussion that leads to what.... Maybe one or two people taking a different view of their frogs, but the maket will still be flooded with undersize, poorly colored frogs. What can WE do about it? I've been saying this for about a decade now - we need to do somthing; think of something. I know its been said in this discussion - too many people willing to buy poor quality frogs. So how do WE fix that?

Best,

Chuck


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## elmoisfive

It may be less a 'willingness to buy poor quality frogs' as opposed to just not knowing better or having the opportunity to compare. I wonder if anyone has the data to show some examples of 'good' versus 'bad' frogs.

I'll try to post one example I can personally speak to tonight (time to run to work right now). 

Bill


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## Roadrunner

we choose where we get our breeders from. i`m now going to implement 2 types of frogs for sale. ones that i pulled and raised and ones that came out in the parents tanks(parent raised). most of these frogs are going to go to hobbiests as pets. out of the thousands of frogs ive sold, patricks sold etc etc. only a handful of them are breeding. i dont think we are at the point to cull them out but we can selectively breed our animals.
how many lines are present for even some of the auratus morphs? i mustve produced 1000 tricolor and 1000 narrow band aurataenia and they are almost out of the hobby. ive got a lot of good questions i`m working on out of this thread. we really havent defined quality yet. if the wild frogs were more colorful, most people dont know that as all they have purchased were cb frogs. cameras play tricks on color so that we cant even tell if a pic gives true colors of that frog. my vittaus throw red, flourescent orange and pale orange offspring. i dont know what the originals looked like, not to mention i bought mine as orange and i see copper and red as labels depending on who is selling them. i dont even know if they are the same morph or a product of line breeding.
the problem is that we dont know what would survive in the wild as to quantify what we are trying to accomplish. it even varies depending upon morph or species(ie why are the dwarfs dwarfs, why are the alanis orange and most other tincs are yellow and why are the oyapoks white etc.)


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## Dancing frogs

Exactly...
Most of the frogs I have, I have never seen (an example of) in person till I actually paid to have them shipped here...of course they look fantastic to me, compared to images on a pc...


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## JL-Exotics

As a relative newcomer to this hobby (with 1 year under my belt), I see tremendous value in finding at least some of the answers to the question Chuck is posing. While I am not a "breeder", I do take great joy in seeing my frogs reproduce as I'm am sure all of us do. If give the opportunity, I'm sure 99% of us would not hesitate to take the necessary steps to produce the healthiest, most colorful, and robust animals that duplicate what mother nature can.

But how do we do that? What are those necessary steps??

I can recall the first few reptile/amphibian shows I attending. I was AMAZED at the beauty of every frog I saw available. Looking back with much more experience I can recognize that some of those frogs were far too small to be offered for sale. Some of them did not look healthy. And some of them were just not fulfilling their potential in regards to color. I'm glad I waited to buy my first frogs, but a lot of other people didn't wait and many of those frogs were sold. Will those frogs go on to further dilute the quality of the gene pool?

More questions that spring to mind:

- As previously mentioned, how do we define quality? Size, color, and general health might be a start. Do people have photos of wild caught frogs we can gather? I think it was be great to add photos of "wild" frogs and then possibly photos of "reduced quality" frogs to each care sheet.

- How do we achieve quality offspring? - Will a "poor quality" frog ever be able to grow into it's full potential if given the proper conditions? Will a "poor quality" frog be able to reproduce and generate high quality offspring if the parents and offspring are provided proper conditions?

- Is anybody currently producing offspring that are indistinguishable from wild caught stock? Many of us have wild caught breeder stock. Are the CB offspring easily distinguished from the WC once they reach adulthood? Those that are producing quality offspring can shed some light on their process I'm sure. 

- How do farmed animals compare to wild frogs? How are the "farmed" frogs raised? Or am I foolish to think they aren't just WC animals sold as farmed animals??

- Will people be willing to share their experience - good or bad - for the benefit of the hobby? Will the modest breeders be uncomfortable claiming to have high quality offspring?? Will people producing poor quality offspring be embarrassed to contribute?? I certainly hope not... The hobby has made great strides in understanding the needs of our frogs and I'm willing to bet anyone that has bred darts has produced poor quality offspring at some point, whether it be SLS, small or weak frogs, faded colors etc. While some of that could be natural variation in the population, it is likely environmental factors are also involved to a large extent. Creating SLS tads or weak froglets does not make you a bad person! It is nothing that people should be ashamed or embarrassed about. We're all doing our best, and when those things happen it unfortunate, and hopefully a learning situation. I would encourage people to share experiences with what doesn't work as well as what does. 

For the sake of our hobby lets keep this discussion alive and share our experiences so we can answer some of the questions we all have.

The big question stands. 

How do we fix the flood of undersized, poorly colored frogs on the market?


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## Dendrobait

On being different from WC frogs, I'd imagine that to be true for some species, but probably not for others. Based on reading this forum species which show yellow and reds as their trademark colors are most likely to fade, simply due to diet. Green and blue are probably more stable.


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## Ed

snip "Will a "poor quality" frog ever be able to grow into it's full potential if given the proper conditions? Will a "poor quality" frog be able to reproduce and generate high quality offspring if the parents and offspring are provided proper conditions? "endsnip

One of the things we may have to realize is that we may have to include "poor quality" animals as part of a breeding program to maximize the gene pool of the frogs. Otherwise we could end up with a very limited gene pool and resulting issues from inbreeding. 

Another item to consider is that we would also have to be able to distinguish animals that are sub-standard due to nutritional/husbandry issues as opposed to genes. 

Ed


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## chuckpowell

Ed. 

I think this is a given. With many species the gene pool is already very small and we have to work with what we have. 



Ed said:


> snip One of the things we may have to realize is that we may have to include "poor quality" animals as part of a breeding program to maximize the gene pool of the frogs. Otherwise we could end up with a very limited gene pool and resulting issues from inbreeding.


No way to tell, but if we can determine how to produce really good quality frogs and keep them well (10 years/animal minimum) then we'll only have to worry about the genes. 



Ed said:


> Another item to consider is that we would also have to be able to distinguish animals that are sub-standard due to nutritional/husbandry issues as opposed to genes.


Best,

Chuck


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## Ed

Hi Chuck,

I just want to make sure all of the people out there are aware of these issues so we don't just get a further divestment of frogs whose genes maybe needed to keep the population healthy. (I know some people are aware of this but I have to hit those people with the message to get those who may not be in the "know"). 


Ed


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## chuckpowell

Is anyone still interested in this discussion?

If so what do you all think is a good quality frog? How would you describe what makes up a good quality frog?

If we don't follow through with this discussion how are we going to work towards our goal. First the goal, then we figure out how to get there. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Dendrobait

Not too hard IMO.

Frogs that show vibrant color and patterning that is a good representation of the species of population, are of normal body size and shape, generally healthy and sturdy without disease, deformities etc. and able to breed and produce healthy offspring. 

Problems here would be how to define vibrant color and normal bodysize/shape etc. Would a 28mm frog from a species that gets anywhere from 30-40mm be "good quality?". What about one that is 43mm or even bigger? While we don't want a bunch of sickly midgets running around I don't think we'd want giant superfrogs either.

The problem is that these are likely influenced by both enviromental conditions and genetics...it could be hard to tell if a keeper is simply doing a great job bulking up frogs or if he is managing to selectively breed forg abnormally large frogs. 

I would add in parental care as a personal one but that opens a whole nother can of worms.


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## froggerboy

How do we know what triats are passed on and what are not?

Is a dull colored indivdual going to produce dull colored offspring?

Can an undersized lame frogs give life to vigorous large offspring?

Has anyone bred "poor quality" frogs to see simular results in thier young?

If studies and results are few and far between then I would assume that all frogs are viable breeding stock.The last thing you want to do is end up like the dog trade.


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## Darren Meyer

Another thing I feel is of some importiance is natural selection . I have noticed that duller colored are often left out of the breeding frenzy if kept in groups . Example my Orange Terribilis "KOI" oddballs call like crazy both are males , both try to show interest in the female but when they do she pounds them into the ground :shock: she wants no part of breeding with them and makes it perfectly clear . Just a thought that possibly "oddballs" are not prefered to pass the genetic trates in the first place.
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## kyle1745

Does anyone know how a frog sees? Do they see colors? I believe dogs see in black and white, but never thought about the frogs.


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## c'est ma

I believe it is pretty well accepted that they see colors. In fact, that may have a lot to do with sexual selection in pumilio. See this description of work by Kyle Summers:

http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summe ... choice.htm


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## kyle1745

Yes but they may not see them like we do...


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## Dendrobait

Darren Meyer said:


> Another thing I feel is of some importiance is natural selection . I have noticed that duller colored are often left out of the breeding frenzy if kept in groups . Example my Orange Terribilis "KOI" oddballs call like crazy both are males , both try to show interest in the female but when they do she pounds them into the ground :shock: she wants no part of breeding with them and makes it perfectly clear . Just a thought that possibly "oddballs" are not prefered to pass the genetic trates in the first place.
> Happy frogging ,
> Darren Meyer


Interesting. Sometimes it can be the opposite. If an animal happens to be produced that shows exagerated secondary sexual characteristics in a captive setting it is often selected for(look around for stuff on mate selection in swordtails and Pecos pupfish). Not going off topic just saying that mate can't be everything. Many people also keep too few frogs to do that.


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## jehitch

Holy anuran overload, Batman! I just read (and reread portions I had trouble understanding until later comments clarified) this thread from beginning to end (there's a project at work I REALLY don't want to start).

My interest was keyed by the discovery of a tad in my FBT tank last night while counting the eggs in the latest clutch. I had moved (what I thought was) all of the tads from the last clutch to the nursery tank a couple weeks ago. Apparently this fellow was hiding very well.

Interestingly, his physical size indicates he was from the previous clutch, but all of his siblings have well developed rear legs, and some have bumps developing for front legs. The left-behind tad has neither.

The tads I moved have been feed twice a day: alternating frozen cyclops and bloodworms in the morning; algae wafers and tadpole bites in the afternoon. The other tad has had to spend the past two weeks scavenging algae, bits of egg, dead plants, and pieces of crickets.

But, the single tad was in a 20 gallon tank; the 30-odd more developed siblings are crowded into a 10 gallon tank.

So

single tad: more room/water + less food = slower development.

multiple tads: less room/water + more food = faster development.

I think this makes sense in several ways, if I understand the comments in this thread:

1. the single tad had less food to spur development, as well as less competition, plus, the larger body of water is less likely to dry out. He can develop at whatever rate his food source allows.

2. The multiple tads had more food to spur development, and more competition for it in less space, perhaps spurring development even further - i.e., "the quicker I morph, the quicker I can get access to a larger area to forage for food away from these pigs, and before this pond evaporates."

I know this is very anecdotal, but do my conclusions make sense?

Jim


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## Ben E

i see the problems with sub-par animals being produced in captivity being directly linked to the underlying beliefs of captivity in general. Captivity relies on the ideas of keeping animals as a singularity, which is never the reality. Some animals are raised as singularities and do quite well (all agricultural plant and animal species) dart frogs are not one of them....this is what lead me to compost terrariums, parental care, and why i am very interested in brent's and matt's soil experiments.....when the end product is a commercially viable product it is quite impossible to not regard these animals as a singularity.....the second you remove the frog from the forest it is no longer the frog, because the frog never really existed beyond it's ecological association.... why do i always have to get so deep on this crap....ha!


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## Guest

> the second you remove the frog from the forest it is no longer the frog, because the frog never really existed beyond it's ecological association


I don't think you've gone too deep at all, Ben. In fact, I think this is one of the most foundational understandings we should have and keep in mind while keeping PDF's in captivity.


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## tclipse

thread revival for a good read & some important considerations.


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## curlykid

You know, i don't get how 'water fouling' is a cause of smaller morph out size. Coming from the reefing hobby, I know the power of bacteria. If you change out your tadpole water everyday, you don't give the water a chance to build bacteria. I'm not saying I recommend throwing in a tad and blasting food at it every time you feed. If you leave a tadless container out, give it an almond leaf, and also feed it lightly with tad bites or other foods for a few weeks, put a small cutting of moss and/or duckweed in it at the end of the month long cycle, you'll have a self-sustaining ecosystem. Another thing you could add is some small gravel or sand to give more space for the bacteria to colonize. The reason why you shouldn't try to cycle with a tadpole is because you risk the chance of killing it from the high oxygen use of the initial bacteria bloom. There are numerous pros to this technique, barely any cons, including natural conditions, constant food supply (moss and algae), and many others. Pretty cool how it works, if everyone starts doing this, it can become a standard in the hobby. I know others have done it, and stand by it, so I'm not some screaming nutcase on the street. (Note: I've never actually raised tads, but i have spent three years in the reefing hobby, so i know how the nitrogen cycle works. After reading that last sentence you're probably doubting me, but try it, you'll be surprised.) Thanks for reading!


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## curlykid

forgot to add that you should start out the containers with about 1ml of bacterial additive, doesn't matter which, we're just aiming for colonization.


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## frogparty

many of us never change tadpole water, and utilize live plants in conjunction in the tad cups.


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## curlykid

i was just taking it a step further. i'll definitely post results of this, and cups with only plants and no water changes, cups with plants and weekly w/c's, cups with no plants and weekly w/c's, and cups with daily w/c's. I really do think this extra step would produce healthier froglets.


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## frogparty

There is already a few very good threads on these different methodfs and tadpole development if you search through. 
Quality supplementation of the parents, along with diverse and adequate foods for the tads semms to make more of a difference than does the water


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## Ed

tclipse said:


> thread revival for a good read & some important considerations.


I thought we had more discussions than just that thread..... 

Ed


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## curlykid

i agree frogparty, as my first post stated, i was talking about only water quality, and i do know that there are many other factors that are of more importance. if we can max out every variable, i think that we can come as close to wild-like frogs as possible.


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## Ed

curlykid said:


> forgot to add that you should start out the containers with about 1ml of bacterial additive, doesn't matter which, we're just aiming for colonization.


Some of the original advertisers of this method (for example Ian Hiller spoke about it at IAD (I think it was in 1999). When this was discussed in the lecture, ammonia was converted to ammonium through the release of tannins from red alder cones and the levels of ammonia and nitrite were tracked. The tadpoles showed fairly good tolerance to both of those chemicals (which to some extent is to be expected given the rearing sites reported). In general some of those who have been using for the longest period of time try to utilize a larger volume of water than a simple cup as this not only provides some buffering from water quality declines but provides a greater surface area for bacterial colonization. In general, I would suggest avoiding gravel or sand as this creates the risk of anaerobic pockets forming which can result in hydrogen sulphide being released and subsequent issues. The growth of aufwuchs is much more likely to be important to the tadpoles instead of algae or plant matter as this is a source of animal protiens which tend to be of short supply to these tadpoles.

Some comments,

Ed


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## curlykid

thanks Ed. i guess my idea has been snuffed out huh? you and frogparty definitely proved me wrong.  I love being wrong.....sometimes.


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## Ed

curlykid said:


> thanks Ed. i guess my idea has been snuffed out huh? you and frogparty definitely proved me wrong.  I love being wrong.....sometimes.


Not wrong... just late..  

There is a long history that many people don't think about when they come to the hobby. If you want to own your own slice of history, you can contact Charles Powell (he is a member here) as he still has sets of the American Dendrobatid Society newsletters that can be aquired very inexpensively. 

Ed


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## frogparty

but it sure shows you are thinking in the right direction. We as a hobby can always use more of that


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## curlykid

i always wanted to be an innovator...... haha


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