# Tinc breeding/grouping?



## digthose (Feb 19, 2018)

Hey,

I have 4 tinc azureus; 2 male, two female. They are currently living peacefully together. I built another viv. considering separating them into two pairs. Would this make them more likely to breed? would it make sense to move a male and female to the new tank at the same time? Any beneficial or strategic move concerning which sex/when to move? 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Dan


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## AzJohn (Aug 31, 2016)

Female tincs are mean to each other. I'd separate them. Seriously the dominate one may kill the other.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AzJohn said:


> Female tincs are mean to each other. I'd separate them. Seriously the dominate one may kill the other.


If this happens its generally because of poor enclosure design. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Zippy (Dec 30, 2015)

Ed said:


> If this happens its generally because of poor enclosure design.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed, how big would you make an enclosure for tincs and what vegetation would you use to keep infighting.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Zippy said:


> Ed, how big would you make an enclosure for tincs and what vegetation would you use to keep infighting.


Contrary to the current dogma, it wasn't uncommon for people to keep their frogs in groups and have successful reproduction in previous years without the risk of death... There has been a significant increase that this is the proper way after more than @20 years of successful group housing... as "a way to increase success" for those newer to the hobby. This has since morphed into many people only claiming that is the only acceptable method. 

Consider for the moment that there has been a "rule of thumb" on cages based on a gallons/frog (which is heavily flawed in and of itself), now if it wasn't possible to keep them in groups why have a number/gallons per frog? That is another part of the dogma that people conveniently ignore when making the claim that they should be kept in pairs.... when people kept groups of four tinctorious in 20 gallon tanks (suggestion at the time was five gallons/frog). 

The issue is that people tend to jump quickly onto any issues with the frogs in groups as being due to competition or stress without any attempt to actually determine the actual problem behind the issue since they can make the suggestion without understanding the needs of the frogs by "following the dogma" (and yes I've had people try to tell me it has to be correct since everyone says it...). You should never see combat to the point it causes severe issues with the frogs since the frogs have submissive behaviors that signal the end of combat (this has been known since at least the early 1990s) which should stop the combat and threats (since the females only guard access to the males and not other resources). If combat continues it is because the two frogs are equally matched in terms of condition and that is partly due to the amount of calories the frogs have to continue combat and usually there is only one viable option for the females for egg deposition... 

The only time you should be at risk of real issues is in 1.2 groups where the secondary female cannot access the male to deposit eggs (this is due to the extreme obesity found in most of the frogs) resulting in either adhesions forming to the mass of eggs preventing passage, or egg yolk peritonitus due to a rupture into the body cavity (which is also a greater risk due to obesity).
A large part of this is because people keep their frogs in continual egg production (since the primary non-enviromental cue is available fat for the yolks) through constant overfeeding. 

With cage design people over plant the cages allowing insufficient clear areas separated by visual barriers where egg deposition sites can be placed so each male can hold a territory. Females guard the males that are caring for their clutches (or where they deposited the clutch if they are pulled. If a female has no male access then you could force the fight to continue as continual holding the eggs provides a good risk of death. This is why the males have to have their own territories and that is often not setup in many cages. Instead you often see people suggesting adding more plants to the open areas which is not how the conditions in which the frogs live in the wild. 

Instead there shouldn't be a lot of plant clutter on the ground, a deep bed of leaf litter and no bromeliads (for tinctorius) if you want to be closer to their natal conditions. There should be open areas that are separated by a visual barrier(s) with a deposition site (like a coconut hut or even a smallish plastic snake hide box) for each male. 

Often a frog loses condition (loses weight) and the prediction is that it is due to stress from competition is the often offered reason without any workup to determine if that is the actual case as opposed to a more common issue like coccidian or other parasite infections....this is where the hobby has a real issue since it is often used as an "out" to avoid having to track down a vet and spend the money for a workup and diagnosis. 

sorry for the rant, 

some comments 

Ed


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## digthose (Feb 19, 2018)

Thanks Ed,
It was a damn fine rant. Sort of hijacked my initial post though. My 4 frogs currently live peacefully together. Do you think they would they be happier/more likely to breed split into male/female pairs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

digthose said:


> Thanks Ed,
> It was a damn fine rant. Sort of hijacked my initial post though. My 4 frogs currently live peacefully together. Do you think they would they be happier/more likely to breed split into male/female pairs?


The honest answer is maybe... it depends on a number of factors including but not limited to compatibility between the frogs, how the egg deposition sites are established, calling sites, and a lot of other factors. Generally if there are issues in a group it is often due to the setup resulting in one area being better for egg deposition conditions and suboptimal conditions elsewhere. As a result the "better" male controls it (which generally only occurs for a few weeks at a time in the wild) continually... This is in part why there is so much emphasis on keeping them in just pairs since doing it that way means there really isn't any need to look at and understand the behavioral actions and biology of the frogs. 

From the other angle, production is heavily dependent on nutritional status of the frogs to the point that you can far exceed the eggs produced in the wild because the frogs are consistently obese. This does have negative consequences in the fact that the obesity as with other taxa can cause diverse problems like fatty liver which can over time kill the frogs. You should also keep in mind that the frogs will lay eggs that aren't provisioned sufficiently enough to result in viable tadpoles or froglets because the nutritional trigger is available fat.... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Just_Angela (Nov 5, 2016)

Thank you for all the info Ed. I also have a group of 4 sub-adult Tincs. Maybe I should send you a pic of my set-up to see if it is sufficient.

Angela


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