# A couple of questions!



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah, sorry, newb question... I've been lurking around these forums for a couple of days now and finally decided to post. I know some of these things have no doubt been asked but I thought it'd be easier to ask and get definitive (as possible) answers for myself...

I've never owned frogs before (obviously ) and I've been considered getting either some D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus or D. Azuratus (excuse any spelling mistakes, but hopefully you'll know which I mean!) according to everywhere, including these forums, those three are great for beginners! I've owned Crested Geckos now for a while so I though I'd try some new out (and potentially something much more expensive apparently!) so onto my questions...

People tell me that PDFs should always be kept in groups, whether out of general regard for the animal or for display purposes. Now, I've also heard that they tend to be territorially agressive to all but the opposite sex, and if I did get into PDFs the first thing I wouldn't want is for them to start breeding! So, is it completely out of the question to simply get same sex pairs? 

For the setup would an 18 x 18 x 18" Exo Terra be suitable for 2 frogs? A lot of the things I've read work in gallons and I fail at the conversions. 

Could anyone give me an overall rough cost for the setup in it's entirety, I understand that's a very vague question so sorry, but I was just wondering. Things over here in the UK tend to be more expensive or unavailable than the US. 

I've been considering following this guide (How to build a Dart Frog viv.... - Reptile Forums UK) but if anyone else wants to send me alternatives I'd happily look them over. 

I'm currently panicking over how complicated it all looks with mentions of waterfalls and foggers all over the place but I think that's just me being a wuss...

So yeah, thanks in advance for all answers (hopefully I'll get atleast one! ) and if all else fails atleast I'll have found a great resource in these forums.


----------



## Ziggi (Jan 23, 2009)

Hi and welcome!
Only spelling mistake is the D.Azuratus is D. Azureus .
Those three are great for beginners you've read right.

I don't think PDF's should always be kept in groups, I think most people like to keep them in pairs or groups but I think one alone would not hurt it.
Most of the tincs (azureus fall into this) Tent to be territorial and aggressive towards same sex, leucs and auratus are known to be a little less.

An 18x18x18 exo terra would be perfect for two larger frogs 
Gallon conversion is 18x18x18 divided by 231.

Costs are totally dependent on you, you can have it pretty simple and low costs. Plants can get very expensive depending what you choose.
But if you already have the tank, and around 75$ for each frog then you could prob count another 100$ in supplies and tank building.

Best of luck.



Nevermore said:


> Yeah, sorry, newb question... I've been lurking around these forums for a couple of days now and finally decided to post. I know some of these things have no doubt been asked but I thought it'd be easier to ask and get definitive (as possible) answers for myself...
> 
> I've never owned frogs before (obviously ) and I've been considered getting either some D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus or D. Azuratus (excuse any spelling mistakes, but hopefully you'll know which I mean!) according to everywhere, including these forums, those three are great for beginners! I've owned Crested Geckos now for a while so I though I'd try some new out (and potentially something much more expensive apparently!) so onto my questions...
> 
> ...


----------



## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

You should try looking at Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Exotic Tropical and Carnivorous Plants with Terrarium & Vivarium Supplies by Black Jungle Terrarium Supply and Front-Opening Showcase Vivarium How-To if you have no idea, they have great info! Also look at peoples build threads before you even start planing! And planing is KEY! Its not crazy expensive to build a simple tank. You dont need anything crazy, as long as the have enough room and pleanty of hiding places they will be happy!
Once oyu get a better idea of what you want to do its eaiser for people to help you if you have more secific questions on your build. 

Those are great beginer frogs as i have heard. i have Leucs and azureus, They are both awesome, they are out all the time and come running to the front of the tank whe they notice i'm in the room! and my azureus breed like crazy!

Most people have more then one frog in their tanks, i personaly think the frogs are more happy that way. Mine interact a lot with eachother. You have to make sure they are not over crowded to casue thats when aggression becomes a problem.

And frogs are a hobby that turn into an addiction! beware! haha


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Welcome to the board Nevermore! (cool user name, BTW) 
I'll take a shot at answering some of your questions...


Nevermore said:


> I've never owned frogs before (obviously ) and I've been considered getting either some D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus or D. Azuratus (excuse any spelling mistakes, but hopefully you'll know which I mean!) according to everywhere, including these forums, those three are great for beginners!


You heard right! Leucs, Auratus and Azureus are definitely considered THE beginner frogs by most folks. Another group to consider is any of the tinctorius (which azureus is a member). They are also bold and fairly easy to care for. Have a look at this morph guide, though keep in mind not all of these morphs are readily available in the hobby: Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide


Nevermore said:


> People tell me that PDFs should always be kept in groups, whether out of general regard for the animal or for display purposes.


There are a number of frogs that CAN be kept in groups - but to my knowledge there are no frogs have HAVE to be kept as such. In fact, the tinc group (azurues included) should only be kept in pairs unless you have a very large tank. Same sex agression (male-male and female-female) does occur and could lead to the death of the non-dominant frog.


Nevermore said:


> if I did get into PDFs the first thing I wouldn't want is for them to start breeding! So, is it completely out of the question to simply get same sex pairs?


Why are you opposed to your frogs breeding? IMO, it's one of the most interersting parts of keeping these frogs. They social/breeding interactions between them are very interesting to watch. And no one is forcing you to keep any eggs/tadpoles that are produced - you could sell them to local froggers (I'm sure there are a few close by) or you simply cull any offspring if you didn't want to deal with trying to raise/sell them.


Nevermore said:


> For the setup would an 18 x 18 x 18" Exo Terra be suitable for 2 frogs?


Definitely! You could put a pair of tincs or azureus in an 18 cube or perhaps a trio of leucs or auratus. Personally, I have four 75% Orange Galactonotus in my 18 Exo. They love it in there and I would say they are a pretty easy frog to keep - if you wanted to start with Galacts.


Nevermore said:


> Could anyone give me an overall rough cost for the setup in it's entirety, I understand that's a very vague question so sorry, but I was just wondering. Things over here in the UK tend to be more expensive or unavailable than the US.


I've built three tanks so far. My first cost around $200 including the tank and all supplies/plants. The 18 Exo cost about the same. I just set up a 10 on the cheap and spent basically nothing on it since I had all the plants and supplies kicking around from the Exo build. That said, it's possible to spend tons of money on water features, pumps, filters, drip walls, cork bark, backgrounds and most importantly - plants!

However, your tanks don't have to be elaborate. In fact, some people have a lot of success with tanks consisting of basically just leaf litter and a few plants. Those kinds of setups can be done for around $50 if you find a good deal on a used tank.

My best advice is to take your time, do lots of reading and don't get overwhelmed. Have fun, ask questions and don't forget to post pictures of your progress! Welcome to the addiction!


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks for the replies! 

And Ziggi yeah I mean Azureus I was just testing you...  

Yeah, I've heard lizards and amphibs of all kinds have a tendency to become an addiction, but I refuse to buy *too* many... 

Don't worry, I will plan things, I'm still at the stage where I'm starting to get past the "YAY pretty colours!" phase and onto to serious planning phase. Thanks for the two links, I don't intend to overdo it. It was the same with Cresteds, well atleast the general philosophy is that most of the scenery is for us to look at rather than for the geckos. I know that PDFs are slightly different in those regards but I doubt they'd much prefer a £40 plant to a £10 plant...

M_Rybecky, it's nice to hear that your frogs actually *react* to your presence in a positive way!  

Do you use Foggers/Waterfalls in your Viv or do you just heavily mist them frequently? 

I think I'll try seed (I think that's the right term) the viv with Springtails, I like the idea of the complete ecosystem. That's if the frogs will let me and not eat all of the spring tails first.

I really can't decide between the three type, leucs seem the most active of the three though from what I've heard.

Edit for Afterdark: Thanks  Yours too, I like a song of the same name  Thanks for the reply! The reason I wouldn't want them breeding straight away is because I'd like the take it slow and I really wouldn't know what to do with them. I didn't think culling them eggs was something I could do (or admit to doing)  Basically I don't want to jump into the hobby, overdo it and end up "breaking" anything. How would you get rid of any unwanted offspring?


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Nevermore said:


> Do you use Foggers/Waterfalls in your Viv or do you just heavily mist them frequently?


All three of my vivs have a small pond in one of the corners. The frogs like to splash around, but they are mainly there so I can siphon excess water out.

I don't have any waterfalls or pumps or anything fancy. I hand mist with a garden sprayer once or twice a day.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Do you literally just create a shallow(ish?) hole in one corner?

Sorry if that's a stupid question, Crested Gecko vivariums are so simple to construct in comparison!


----------



## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

> Don't worry, I will plan things, I'm still at the stage where I'm starting to get past the "YAY pretty colours!" phase and onto to serious planning phase. Thanks for the two links, I don't intend to overdo it. It was the same with Cresteds, well atleast the general philosophy is that most of the scenery is for us to look at rather than for the geckos. I know that PDFs are slightly different in those regards but I doubt they'd much prefer a £40 plant to a £10 plant...


I didnt over do my tanks and they still look pretty good! Its all placement IMO. You can order a lot of plants and also get them from you local nurserys. Just make sure oyu clean them well!!!! A lot of the time people on here sell plants and stuff! I've gotten a lot of great things! And EBAY too! Love that site!!!! If people are willing to ship to you i find looking on here and ebay your best bet for good prices!



> M_Rybecky, it's nice to hear that your frogs actually *react* to your presence in a positive way!


They know that you feed them i guess. When i first got them they would hide when i opened the tank now they watch when i'm doing!



> Do you use Foggers/Waterfalls in your Viv or do you just heavily mist them frequently?


My tanks aren't huge so i just mist them by hand about once a day. i have a 30g and a 40g



> I think I'll try seed (I think that's the right term) the viv with Springtails, I like the idea of the complete ecosystem. That's if the frogs will let me and not eat all of the spring tails first.


If you seed beofre you put the frogs in and have enought leaf litter they will breed like crazy! But you also need ot feed fruit flies... thats how you suplement them and FF are bigger and make a better food source! but i have also seeded mt tanks with springtails (maybe thats why my frogs are so chunky!  )



> I really can't decide between the three type, leucs seem the most active of the three though from what I've heard.


Leucs are great, so pretty! My mom loves mine and has named all three!


----------



## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

I have 2 morphs of tincs - cobalts & azureus. Both have very low calls so if you want to hear your frogs, leucs may be a great way to go. I am of the mind that a pair is beneficial because unlike "pets" who gain interaction from people holding them - dogs, cats, ferrets, even birds, these are wonderful creatures who do better with the least human touch possible. 

One thing in regards to tanks, the use of a false bottom is super. Makes it easy to have the water from daily misting which seeps through the substrate removed. I don't have a water feature in either of my vivs. 

One of my new questions is "where will I keep the froglets?" actually said with a little more concern as my older frogs are definite a male female pair attempting to have their own children ... But, I know I will find the answer when that happens. I am watching the 3rd known clutch now in its third day, still where she laid them and so far so good.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

So I had a quick look around at some supply websites, apparently you can get 6 plants recommended for PDF for around £20 which, to my uneducated brain, sounds quite good!

I was thinking of getting Leucs for the call, and apparently because they're diurnal they shouldn't keep you up at night with calling... I'd be quite looking forward to getting something which moves and makes noises during the day rather than waiting for nighttime and then at best just hearing the noise of a gecko jumping onto something...

So by the sounds of it, the most complicated part will be fixing in the thermostat stuff, light and heatmat, seeing as I shouldn't need to mess with any humidity stuff. I was think the norm is to keep the light on during the day and then have the heatmat as a "back up" incase it gets too cold on a night time...

So many different types of bulbs >_< and I don't know which to choose!

With an exoterra, I suddenly realised that there are a lot of gaps from which springtails and fruit flies could escape from, although springstails probably to a lesser extent? Has anyone had this problem with an exoterra and is there a solution apart from replacing mesh/sealing up the gaps which might result in my accidentally sealing the viv... It's no huge problem with the exoterra, I don't yet have one so it's not like I've wasted the money, I just like planning and so far exoterra vivs have been good to me.

And Dragonfly, good look with the froglet problem!


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Hi Nevermore - Exos are great tanks. The front opening doors are a huge help when feeding, misting - anything inside the tank really!

As far as sealing them - I found some weather stripping designed for sealing gaps in windows/doors. It's basically some tape with a layer of foam applied to the non-sticky side. I place it along the doors and around the seals of my top vent. I installed it about two weeks ago and I haven't seen a fruit fly escapee since! And you're right, springtails will generally not make a break for freedom - and if they do they are so small they're barely noticeable and won't last long outside the viv anyway.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

With the exo terra, I understand about the front doors, but the mesh on top doesn't look to have that big holes... Would fruit flies really get out of it? 

And on the front beneath the doors there is a row of vent type things in the plastic, have you covered those up? 

I've done some more research, I'd love to do one of those big, impressive backgrounds made from Great Stuff of Silicone (I have no idea how to use these or where to get it from) but I think it's all beyond me... So I might just make sure that the substrate is nice and ... "Mountainous" (not the best choice of words) and ensure that I add plenty of plants, driftwood type things... Etc.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Sorry for the double post.

I was just wondering, I intend to use LECA as the drainage layer and I've read conflicting reports as to whether there needs to be a divider (plastic, fabric, whatever) between the LECA and substrate. Some people have said you can add the substrate straight over the LECA, which to me sounds right as that'd allow any plants to root down into the drainage if they wanted to... But I don't really know.

As for the substrate I found a breeder who seems to mix their own "special" compost for Dartfrogs, the description reads "Developed by Dartfrog, this is a 'living' compost for the dartfrog vivarium containing a host of custodian and food insects such as european and tropical springtails and woodlice. Place in a vivarium and get it established for 2 weeks prior to adding frogs.", would it be okay to use that then plant whatever I eventually choose into this and place coco bark or moss over that? (the website is dartfrog.co.uk might I add).

You can tell that I aren't much of a gardener...


----------



## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

> I was just wondering, I intend to use LECA as the drainage layer and I've read conflicting reports as to whether there needs to be a divider (plastic, fabric, whatever) between the LECA and substrate.


I usually use a divider between layers. It keeps everything from falling to the bottom and making a mess. as far as the plants roots go they usually wont go to deep, just make you substrate on top sorta think so they have room to grow.



> As for the substrate I found a breeder who seems to mix their own "special" compost for Dartfrogs, the description reads "Developed by Dartfrog, this is a 'living' compost for the dartfrog vivarium containing a host of custodian and food insects such as european and tropical springtails and woodlice. Place in a vivarium and get it established for 2 weeks prior to adding frogs.", would it be okay to use that then plant whatever I eventually choose into this and place coco bark or moss over that? (the website is dartfrog.co.uk might I add).


I'm not too sure about the substrate, i usually mix my own. But i think if it is already seeded with buggies it might sound good. I would find out exactly what is mixed into it before putting it into your viv. And instead of coco or moss as a ground cover i would used dried almond leaves or oak leaves. The decomp of the leaves helps the plants and also help springtails, they eat it! also the frogs dont like to get dirt on the so it helps keep them on top of it.
Amy's 200g Grade C+ INDIAN ALMOND CATAPPA LEAVES -leaf - eBay (item 380111240079 end time May-16-09 00:57:33 PDT)


----------



## RecycledAgain (Oct 26, 2008)

The first thing I noticed on the UK how to,, Notta mention of screen or divider between the lyca and soil..just thought that was interesting,,

Dan


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah I thought that and from a couple of "how tos" I've read they don't mention a divider. With an eggcrate I can see why one would be needed as it does have holes in it whereas I suppose with LECA there would be less room for the substrate to just fall through. If that makes sense?

And yeah I'll see if I can ring up the place and enquire (I have some other stuff to ask, I'm not just ringing up to ask about the components of their soil...). And yeah I'll make sure to get some leaves aswell  I'm quite looking forward to getting all this stuff and sticking it together... Hopefully it'll turn out quite nice.


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I would put a piece of fiberglass window screen between the LECA and substrate. If you don't you'll wind up a muddy mess.

As for substrate ideas, here's what I'm using:

*4 parts black earth* - (high in nutrients and no fertilizers)

*1.5 - 2 parts sterilized landscaping sand* - (helps drain excess moisture from the soil)

*2 parts chopped up spaghnum* - (keeps wet soil from compacting - I used half Long-Fibre spagh and half Zilla Forest Moss)
*
1 part coco fibre* - (holds some moisture and lightens up the colour a bit)

*1 part orchid bark* - (for a little texture and added drainage)


----------



## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Nevermore said:


> So I had a quick look around at some supply websites, apparently you can get 6 plants recommended for PDF for around £20 which, to my uneducated brain, sounds quite good!
> 
> So by the sounds of it, the most complicated part will be fixing in the thermostat stuff, light and heatmat, seeing as I shouldn't need to mess with any humidity stuff. I was think the norm is to keep the light on during the day and then have the heatmat as a "back up" incase it gets too cold on a night time...


That much for the plants?! 

You've gotten some great advice here so far. I just thought I'd add that you won't be needing a heat mat as long as the temperature in your house doesn't drop below mid 60s (degrees F). Good luck with your new addiction!!


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

I found out what was in the Substrate mix offered, "... a mixture of orchid bark, granulated tree fern, granulated cork, moss peat, humus, tropical leaf fibre and several natural additives along with colonies of springtails and woodlice." To me, that sound good, but is it? Although I am wondering what "Natural additives" are, I'm presuming he just means minerals/that kind of stuff? 

A quick temperate check confirms that my house is around 70 degrees F, and it's a sunny day. It can get quite cold where I live  I've yet to even purchase a Vivarium though, so plenty of time to fiddle and mess about with heating.

I've discovered that I might be able to get a confirmed pair of Azureus. My first choice was Leucomelas as I love their calls, but Azureus was close second. I'd rather get a pair because I'm afraid that I wouldn't be able to buy an extra vivarium for the second frog and I don't think it'd be fair to force them to live together, especially so regarding how unfriendly they can be to each other if they're not of the opposite sex...


----------



## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Depending on where you live you can always make a trade for a frog of the opposite sex with another hobbyist. I do agree that buying a confirmed male/female pair is a good way to cut out the runaround though . Good luck.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

I like in England, so unfortunatly there aren't as many hobbyists hanging around as there are in the US. The breeder I've found is almost a 4 hour drive away... :|


----------



## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

The substrate mix sounds good - assuming the 'other natural additives' are harmless.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Quick update, I'm getting my 18x18x18 vivarium next weekend, so I'm going to be looking into getting plants/substrates/etc at the end of this week. 

I'm still a little confused with the lighting, I'm pretty sure I'll get the 18" exo terra hood thing for the vivarium but all the bulb types are... Confusing. Or maybe I'll get an Exo Terra "Halogen Glo Lamp (Porcelain clamp lamp and reflector)". 

As you can tell, I need to do more research concerning lighting. Any advice concerning bulb types or the like would be good.


----------



## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

if your feeling overwhelmed by your options in lighting then there are a few things i can tell you that might help you focus. a lot of use that have frog racks use overhead shop lights. this is so we can get the lights up off the tank reducing heat and also it just gets the lights out of the way. if you have just one tank on a stand shop lights are impractical and a light hood is a good way to go.
*as for you Kelvin rating, 6700K is your normal white light spectrum so you can stick with that if you like the color, it doesn’t make much of a difference to the plants.
*if your having trouble keeping your frog room cool in the summer, the smaller the tube diameter the more lumens to watts you get, which means less heat output. T-5 being top notch.
*i don't have any experience with CFLs but it looks like their only draw back is the higher cost of the bulbs.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Yeah I'll only have the one dart frog viv and I'll probably only have the one for some time so a big setup is impractical...

Thanks for the help, someone directed me towards these and they seem good. I'll continue to look around for now though so I'll hopefully fully understand what I'm buying and why... 

Originally I thought about getting 1 repti glo 2.0 and 1 repti glo 5.0, mainly because of the "propaganda" on the exo-terra website about UVB and what not but a combination of things tell me otherwise. One being that UVB won't be much good in a bulb anyway seeing as there will be a sheet of glass inbetween the bulb and the frogs...


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi

We have the exo hoods and originally put in a 2 and 5 We have since pulled out all the 5's. We use the reptiglo 2 only. 6700k and a full spectrum light. From what we've read they don't need the UVB.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

I heard that sometimes UVB can be beneficial if the frog is sick but that evidence isn't definite, just anecdotal.

I think I'll get two of the bulbs that I linked in my above post and use them (Thanks, Mworks!). Still, any advice is very welcome! 

I'll soon be drawing a couple of sketchs of what I'd like my vivarium to look like. For some peculiar idea I don't like the idea of having a background which completely obscures a side so I was thinking of chopping some background materials up. But I'm presuming the benefit of having a full background is that the frogs feel more secure... So I'd need to make up for it with plenty of plants/hiding spaces. I also want some driftwood. 

Also, has anyone used Xaxim as a background? I assume that's a trade name and unless I totally fail at google (I think it's safe to say that I probably do) I can't find too much info about it other than it's used for growing Orchids. I'm still researching how to mount plants onto walls, but overall planning is going alright. Expect frogs in about 2 months - Maybe!

Edit: Confirmed fail at Google. Xaxim is Tree Fern. I'll update when I discover more.


----------



## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

well your on the right track by joinning dendroboard and asking questions because ppl here are really nice and helpful. and not all frogs should be kept in groups some do better in pairs ect.. the fun of the pdf trade is building your viv re search every inch of it from the drain layer the soil and soil mix's to the types of plants and even backrounds. water features ect.. and then your frogs. i happen to own all 3 frogs you names and my fav are the leucs they are very active not shy and eat like tanks.. and as for building your tank there are a ton of builds out there just find one you like.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

Thanks DCreptiles 

For the drainage layer, what do you do for venting/draining the water from it? From what I gather, some people use a small piece of tube so the evaporated water can escape and other people don't even bother, just allowing it to eventually work it's way into the soil again...


----------



## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

no tube is required. i had installed one in my first viv with the intentions that i could syphon water from it, but careful hand misting and a year later i have never had to remove water from any of my vivs.
as for favorite drainage layer, once you go clay based soil, you never go back!


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

I think I'll pass on the vent then  And yeah, LECA seems the way to go!

Sorting out plants for the moment. It's been difficult trying to identify and research some of them as people have a tendency to use scientific names and various common names interchangably which is a little confusing for me, being a newb.

I'm liking the look of Peperomia prostrata (epiphytic) and Neoregelia liliputiana (terrestrial and epiphytic, I gather) so I think I'll get some of that. There are a couple of Broms I've struggle to research, Neo. Echo and Neo. June Night, I like these two but they look too big for an 18x18x18 really. I also really like Neo... Fireball but again, size may be an issue.

Does anyone have any experience with Neoregelia tarapotiensis? How big does this grow? 

I intended to mount most of the plants on the background or the piece of cypress driftwood I'm looking to find and leave the main floor covered in leaf litter and moss + hopefully a fern type plant perhaps?

Are there any smaller type ferns (something that would perhaps take the corner of the vivarium up...) out there? I just feel the need for a good terrestrial plant...

Also, feel free to call me out of any of these details, infact please do or I'll *never* learn

Edit: Does Hemionitis artolia cope well in vivarium conditions planted into the substrate?


----------



## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

For drainage unless you are going to go fancy, using a false bottom with the up drain and the siphon system is perfect. Always better plan a drain and not need it than not have a drain you later need.


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

I thought it best not to start another thread to ask this as I already have this one running so... I'm finally in a position to start looking at frogs with a serious intention to buy.

The two species which I'm most drawn to are Dendrobates azureus and Phyllobates aurotaenia. I have an 18x18x18 vivarium, so I can fit a pair of azureus comfortably in there, but I'm not sure with regards to the aurotaenia.

From what I've heard, aurotaenia are smaller and tend to be a lot more social than azureus, so would it be safe to put a trio (2 male and 1 female?) of aurotaenia in an 18x18x18?


----------



## Nevermore (Apr 15, 2009)

If anyone could supply me with extra information on Phyllobates aurotaenia or experience with them that would be good. I've done some searches and it sounds like I could fit 4 in a 18x18x18 - Would I be right to assume this?

What I've learnt: They do very well in groups - even same sex (whereas a group of 3 same sex Azureus may end up killing each other), they're bold (not as bold as Azureus though), males call a lot and they call loudly. They're easy to care for (as easy as dartfrogs can be to care for) although somewhat rare compared to tincs, leucomelas, terrib.

I've also heard that rather than "fighting", they simply square up to each other and call until one backs down... 

So currently it appears than my plan is (providing I can find some) to get a group of 3-4 aurotaenia (green preferably) and hopefully there will be a female among them! 

On a side note I had my first run in with silicone today in sticking my tree fern background down, it's not quite as wide as viv but I plan to remedy that with the liberal application of drift wood. It also doesn't cover the entire vivarium back (not counting space to be used for the substrate/drainage layer) and leaves a 5 inch space of glass showing at the top but this was all part of the plan. I had to crush up some cocofiber to fill in the gaps around the tree fern which essentially means there is a line of cocofiber across the top of the tree fern but ideally this will be covered by moss/foliage soon!

Lessons learnt; Silicone fumes burn your eyes.


----------

