# Planning community tank the right way.



## eschaton (Jun 27, 2007)

I've been researching the Dart hobby for a planned first vivarium in the next few months. I've decided I want to do a full on Costa Rican biotope - all species coexisting in the wild. It's going to include

Land:
D. auratus
Either Gonatodes albogularis (yellow-headed gecko - only gets to be three inches long) and/or Hyla ebraccata (hourglass tree frog)

Water:
Small, Central American livebearer (probably Phallichthys tico or Phallichthys quadripunctatus). 
Possibly a native Killifish of the Rivulus genus if I can find one.

I'm thinking a 60-gallon vivarium, highly planted should suffice for the needs of all the inhabitants. Obviously the water level is going to be a bit higher than in the typical dart tank. 

Does this plan sound workable. One issue I think I might have is that the livebearers are hard-water species, and planted tanks tend towards an acidic PH. If I buffered the water, could it hurt the frogs or their tadpoles.

Thoughts?


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

Sounds pretty interesting, I'm not sure if all of those animals could be safely housed together though. I'd upgrade to a bigger aquarium, possibly around the 100 gallon range.


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## shortymac83 (Jun 27, 2007)

If you have 10 or so gallons of water, why not try goodeids? You can get them relatively small...the only problem with them is that they are specifically Mexican...not Costa Rican. They are pretty freakin' sweet though.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The mix of the gonatodes and hourglass should be fine. You would need to set up the tank before you aquire any of the animals to make sure that the conditions work before adding them especially any heat issues. Instead of fish why don't you put some emergent vegetation around and above the water so the hourglass will deposit eggs and the tadpoles will reside in the water. Hourglass tadpoles are pretty active freeswimming tadpoles.. 
This way you could set up a humidifier to run several times of day to stimulate the hylids to lay and if you provide dry basking branches (needed to prevent skin problems) areas for the Gonatodes to sun and dry off. 
I suspect that you are going to have problems finding a source for Gonatodes that were actually collected in South America and instead will end up with them from Florida. 


Ed


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## eschaton (Jun 27, 2007)

Ed said:


> The mix of the gonatodes and hourglass should be fine. You would need to set up the tank before you aquire any of the animals to make sure that the conditions work before adding them especially any heat issues.
> Ed


I'm planning on letting the tank have a "grow out" period to stabilize. 



Ed said:


> Instead of fish why don't you put some emergent vegetation around and above the water so the hourglass will deposit eggs and the tadpoles will reside in the water. Hourglass tadpoles are pretty active freeswimming tadpoles..
> This way you could set up a humidifier to run several times of day to stimulate the hylids to lay and if you provide dry basking branches (needed to prevent skin problems) areas for the Gonatodes to sun and dry off.
> Ed


I have wondered if having a small group of fish in the water might cause issues with the frogs breeding - or rather hatching. The two livebearers in question are around roughly the same size as Endler's, and the leading Killie possibility is less than 2 inches long, so I wouldn't think it would be terrible - especially considering I'm planning a heavily planted tank. Maybe I should add an extra-shallow region for the young ones to grow out in? 

I'm planning basking areas for the Gecko though. I take it that's a species that needs UV? 



Ed said:


> I suspect that you are going to have problems finding a source for Gonatodes that were actually collected in South America and instead will end up with them from Florida.
> Ed


I found someone on gecko boards who breeds them. He actually is now breeding rarer Gonatodes too, so there is a chance his species is S. American. Even if it isn't - from what I understand the Floridian ones were introduced, correct?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

somebody here has a RETF with a group of mixed auratus morphs. (he is responsible though, destroys the auratus eggs).

However, he hand feeds his RETF thawed, frozen crickets. 

And the tank is 125 gallons.

Roaches and crickets can prey on sleeping animals if they do not have sufficient vegetation to feed on (and many of our terrarium plants are inedible).

However, many treefrogs require more ventilation and higher temps than darts.

Fish are a better choice than mixing reptiles with dart frogs. Unless we're talking about terribilis, most likely the dart frogs will never bother the fish.

Make sure they're a species that does not require constant 77+ degree water or you're going to have heat stress issues with your darts.


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## eschaton (Jun 27, 2007)

Hourglass frogs are a good deal smaller than Red-eyes, for what it's worth - I've found little on them online, but the apparent maximum size is just under two inches. That said, it's a little too big for just fruit flies apparently, which is why I'm leaning toward the Gecko (who likely can survive off of FF) rather than the tree frog. 

They have an ideal temperature range of 75 to 77 according to Understory (can survive between 68 and 93), so they'd be fine with a dart tank temperature. Humidity should be a touch lower (70%), but the difference could likely be provided simply by the tree frogs staying in the higher reaches of the tank.

As for the heat stress in the water - would the water remaining heated at, say 68 degrees all night really make that big of a difference on the land portion of the tank? While heat will clearly dissipate upwards overnight, more than a few inches from "shore" the temperature should drop off, given adequate ventilation, fairly quickly - just as the air isn't too much warmer above my glass-lidded aquaria once the lights are out.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Problem with ebraccata is that they aren't really available in the states. Their close relative, H. leucophyllata, is available CB regularly tho, I know at least one person who breeds this species in relatively large quantities.

PDFs generally seem to have smaller food preferences than other frogs their size... both the geckos and the treefrogs as adults will be eating larger foods than the auratus. I've fed both my small geckos (parthogenic house geckos similar in size to the yellow heads) and clown treefrogs from bowls to keep the larger foods from running around. Crickets with hopper legs removed and nymphs of a small non-climbing roach species like B. lateralis have worked well. Both have taken termites from bowls too.

If you want the frogs to breed in the tank, scrap the fish. You can provide other deposition spots for the auratus in the tank, but with the clowns/hourglass the eggs will just get munched on with certain fish involved.

You'd have to completely set up and run your tank for a couple weeks to see what the true temps and conditions of the tank will be to really determine if you will have to correct conditions, or can tweak to get them.


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