# shock!! proven tinctorius female calling!



## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi!

So today I thought I was going crazy when looking at my cobalts, I saw clearly and without any doubt my female cobalt calling. There is no doubt about her sex, it's an almost 4 year old female that laid for me many times in the past, and it's the first time that I see her doing that. It was really soft, like some males that call really quiet or an immature male starting to do it. She made some in a row, I couldn't get it on video..but I could get something! (sorry for quality, I took the only cam I had on this moment!)

Female Tinctorius calling! - YouTube

Also some very strange thing is that the other frog that appears on the video, it's a proven male (he called many times before) but he was acting like a courting female at this moment (I couldn't get that on video, sorry!). Yesterday they acted as a "normal" pair, courting like a normal tinc pair would do..this is really crazy!!

I must say also: After I came from vacation about two weeks ago, I noticed something really weird, my female attacking the two males like she never ever did before! Actually this is still happening now sometimes but much less. This female lived without problems for two years with one male, and 4 months as a trio together (2 males, one female)

Did someone ever see something similar? I never heard about it!

regards!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok, put down the bottle and back away 

Very interesting!


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Based on the large toepads and shape of the calling frog, I would say this is clearly a male. The second frog in the video appears to be the female in the pair.

Richard.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> Based on the large toepads and shape of the calling frog, I would say this is clearly a male. The second frog in the video appears to be the female in the pair.
> 
> Richard.


Agreed.....


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

the toe pads are a bit large for a female, yes, but he also states that the other frog had called my times before. This is confusing...


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## JBuckway (Mar 15, 2012)

I agree very confusing never heard of a calling female? It is most likely a male sorry.


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

I am sorry, I thought I explained myself good enough but maybe I didn't..the point of this post is not guessing if this frog it's a male or a female..It's a PROVEN female, and by proven I mean that she LAID eggs not less than a dozen of times, I had TAPDOLES from her, and always acted like a female in the courtship..This is not my first frog, she is with me for more than 3 years, I breed other tinctorius morphs and I see courtship and calling frogs almost every day for some years, so I am not mistaking either the sex or the calling.

Woodsman if the other frog looks to you like a female, than the case would be even more stunning, becuse this frog is calling very often for me. It may look to you as a female because he is really fat now, one of the two males from the trio got week during my holiday (not this one obviously) and he has a bit trouble hunting, that's why I am feeding a bit more and this male is getting a bit too much of the cake

So, I am the first person ever reporting a female tinctorius calling? I hardly can believe it..

I will look closer and try to take on video a better calling moment if it's coming..

greetings!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Let's get some more clarity here... there are some outstanding points that I haven't seen mentioned yet. 

1) have you ever observed the "calling" female actually depositing eggs? 

2) have you had the "calling" female with other confirmed males before this event? 


Some comments,

Ed


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Ed said:


> Let's get some more clarity here... there are some outstanding points that I haven't seen mentioned yet.
> 
> 1) have you ever observed the "calling" female actually depositing eggs?
> 
> ...


Hi Ed!

I answer yes to both questions. 

When I first got two males for her 2 years ago (one of them from this beggining is still with her, but doesn't appear on the video) she got crazy and started courting all day, by this time she laid a lot, I could see it many times.
This frog has been at least with 3 different confirmed males (now with 2 of them), and they all called (and call) frequently. She has never been together with another confirmed female, when she was with other frogs and laid, it was always with calling males.

greetings!


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

My dad is a canary breeder. He always knows the sex of the birds based on calling, much like we do for PDFs - males call, females don't. 

Well, along the years my dad had a few female singers in the house. He saw them singing and he saw them breeding.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have hundreds of adult D. tinctorius morphs and have never seen a female call. The frog in the video is clearly a male.

Richard.


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> I have hundreds of adult D. tinctorius morphs and have never seen a female call. The frog in the video is clearly a male.
> 
> Richard.


You may have hundred of tincs, but this time you are wrong. I know you will not believe me anyway, but I will show you a pic I had from the same frog, different angle, different moment in time:










Still so clear?? I don't even know why I am doing that, I saw this female laying eggs but whatever..


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Have you had eggs from her when she was completely alone from other frogs? Not a proven male or proven female with her but solely 'her'


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Anyone else following this thread thinking of Jurassic Park and the amphibian DNA? Those dinosaurs totally switched from female to male, just sayin...


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## Totenkampf (Jun 25, 2012)

that would be interesting thing to see. i briefly studied herpetology in college and it was pretty much a given about only males calling. captive environmental conditions have done other wierd things to animal behavior so who knows. tell her if shes gonna call then she gets to carry the tads around too lol.


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Dev30ils said:


> Anyone else following this thread thinking of Jurassic Park and the amphibian DNA? Those dinosaurs totally switched from female to male, just sayin...


hahaha I am thinking about that since the moment I saw her calling yesterday!! I think I didn't mention something else..this frog acted always as a female for more than 3 years, but since I came back from holiday 3 weeks ago, I found for my surprise that she is attacking both males regularly!!(specially her older partner, 2 years together without any trouble!) and now this calling..some days ago, I saw her courting like a female with one of the males, but apart from that, after my holliday, I can say this frog is acting more as a male, than like a female..it's possible in some way that the thing from jurassic park can really happen in darts? I would guess not, but this case is really driving me crazy!! 



Pacblu202 said:


> Have you had eggs from her when she was completely alone from other frogs? Not a proven male or proven female with her but solely 'her'


This frog never laid eggs being alone. As I told Ed, I only got clutches in this viv with this frog and one or two calling males..so if it was not her that laid this eggs (it was, because I saw it, but let's suppose it was not) it was a frog that was calling..same thing!

greetings!


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Well one can very easily mistake a frog. Are there some definite patterns on that frog that are different? Was it just you hearing the calling and assuming it was the other frog and not this one? Just trying to rule things out is all


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Could you also post a picture of all three frogs making sure to get a good shot of the toe pads too?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Here's the deal. 

You say you just got back from Holiday...you obviously have a very conscientious house-sitter and when they accidentally killed your tinc female, they combed the country to find and replace her with a duplicate.

The only difference is the gender.

Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

Boondoggle said:


> Here's the deal.
> 
> You say you just got back from Holiday...you obviously have a very conscientious house-sitter and when they accidentally killed your tinc female, they combed the country to find and replace her with a duplicate.
> 
> ...


Well I'm glad i wasn't the only one who thought that exact thing hahaha


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Pacblu202 said:


> Well one can very easily mistake a frog. Are there some definite patterns on that frog that are different? Was it just you hearing the calling and assuming it was the other frog and not this one? Just trying to rule things out is all


No no I didn't hear anything first, I was looking at my frogs like usual, and then I just saw her doing the calling gesture and after I heard the soft noise..for a second I thought I was going crazy. It's a frog that I have for several years, I would not mistake her.
I could post a pic of the three together, but it will make no difference, there are two calling frogs and the frog of this issue, the one calling in the video. 



Boondoggle said:


> Here's the deal.
> 
> You say you just got back from Holiday...you obviously have a very conscientious house-sitter and when they accidentally killed your tinc female, they combed the country to find and replace her with a duplicate.
> 
> ...




greetings!


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

The only reason I said pics is just so I could see all three together and see. I can't say I don't believe you but it's a difficult thing to believe in general. If I saw all three frogs and they all happened to look like males but you have had eggs from those three then I'll fully believe it


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## avlo (Apr 19, 2012)

for what it's worth I've had quite a few mice in my time and the females will hump the other females same deal with female dogs in heat, I got buddy who had to get a stuffed dog for when she was in heat. Granted these are mammels not amphibians but still, females sometimes act like males.


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

avlo said:


> for what it's worth I've had quite a few mice in my time and the females will hump the other females same deal with female dogs in heat, I got buddy who had to get a stuffed dog for when she was in heat. Granted these are mammels not amphibians but still, females sometimes act like males.


But calling is different. It's one thing if he said he had a male 'courting' but a female calling? Maybe it's just a hermaphrodite or it's just come out of the closet? You, my friend, have the first gay frogs! Congrats!


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

ok people you are lucky I am a someone that takes a lot of pictures from his frogs, I will prepare this afternoon a couple of pictures showing wich frogs where together with this one when I had clutches from her

see you later!


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## Johno2090 (Aug 31, 2011)

My female FBT calls all the bloody time... She likes s good chatter when she's amplexed too lol!!!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

avlo said:


> for what it's worth I've had quite a few mice in my time and the females will hump the other females same deal with female dogs in heat, I got buddy who had to get a stuffed dog for when she was in heat. Granted these are mammels not amphibians but still, females sometimes act like males.


I don't think this really applies here to the females calling. The female could act like a male, fight with males, even appear to be courting with another female... but I don't think that female tinctorius even have the physical capability of vocalizing like the males do, or the ability to change sex (hermaphrodites, like with clownfish). I've heard some species of frogs can have females call (like terribilis) but as far as I know tinctorius aren't capable of it.
Bryan


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

I got some incredible record on video from an experiment I did this afternoon..I still have to arrange the videos so I will post it later. I still can't believe what happened!! just one clue..what would happen if you pair this frog with a female tinctorius?? results later!!

greetings!


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

So I got it! today I had an idea..what would happen if this calling female was putted together with another proven female for a moment? I chosed my strongest female in this moment from my collection, my fat breeding azureus female. I have to say this experiment only lasted for about 5 minutes, for sure she didn't like it but she was quicly back into her terrarium again..so here it goes!

I am sorry about the very poor quality of this video (no better camera at the moment) but specially audio (I wanted a witness of this experiment so you can hear me explaining wat was happening to my girlfriend). It's a shame that you can only see the calling gesture, the sound was really high, I couldn't believe it, nothing different from a middle volume tinctorius calling!! much higher than yesterday, she got really angry!

calling female with female azureus - YouTube


More material: I will show you some pics from the frogs that have shared terrarium with the calling female during the period where I got clutches from her:

Agoust 2010:










A and B: calling males
C: Female

Unfortunatelly I lost frog B in november 2010, so frog A and C stayed together untill the present time (It's the male appearing on the second video) getting some clutches during both periods (A+B+C and A+C). However, male A started more and more ignoring the female courting, so she finally stopped trying. It's I would say more than a year ago that I got the last clutch from her. I tryed to introduce a new male in March 2012 (the one appearing on the first video) but still no clutches, I saw some little courting but nothing else..Now, some closeups from male A and female:


























Male A:


















Female (frog C):


















So I cannot say anything more, I have a female that calls, I know the most of you will not believe me even with the big amount of data that I added on this post, I cannot do anything more about it. For the ones you still think it's a male, remember that I got clutches from the pair A and C, and A it's a calling male..so whatever you want, I got clutches from a calling frog!

That's all, thanks for reading!


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## Pacblu202 (May 8, 2012)

well i would say they all look like males so if your getting clutches then wow... hahah thats crazy. thanks for the pics man!


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## SmallScaleDan (Nov 16, 2008)

Many amphibians will make a "release call" when they are stressed or captured. If you pick up a large american toad female she will chirp quite a bit like the males call, but softer and less rhythmic. 

Maybe this is something similar? 


Maybe she's a frogmaphrodite?  

Dan


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

They all look like males to me.


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

SmallScaleDan said:


> Many amphibians will make a "release call" when they are stressed or captured. If you pick up a large american toad female she will chirp quite a bit like the males call, but softer and less rhythmic.
> 
> Maybe this is something similar?
> 
> ...


I know what you mean but it doesn't seem to be that, as long as she had no special stress or manipulation. It looks more like a male behavouring..

Some more news, I had to remove from the tank her older tank mate ( a calling male, two years of peacefull life together, I got clutches from them) because she was attacking him very very agressivily. 
Since I did the azureus experiment, I saw no more calling from her. Now she is sharing viv only with one male, they have small fighting sometimes, but nothing important.

A lot of you say that this frog looks like a male, but if you read only with a bit attention what I took so much effort trying to explain, you will see that this is not possible..or at least it was not. 
I have to agree with you, that now this frog looks, and acts as well (even if I still see some female behaviour) more as a male. But this frog changed. One, or two years ago, no one would say that she looked like a male. It was one absolutelly obvious female, and she always behaved like one (courting, CLUTCHES..I repeat it just in case, I think I wrote this word 1000 times!!). Now, her bodyshape changed slightly, and it looks to me that her toepads got a bit bigger. And most important, she is kind of behaving like a male. I know it sounds incredible, but I am just describing what's happening here. I would hardly believe it if it was not because this is happening really!

I'll try to contact some biologists to look for some possibilities around, it's the only thing I see I can make..froggers don't believe me, now let's see what a scientist thinks about!

I'll keep updated!


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## goku (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi again!

there are some news with the calling female! after I removed her old partner due to agression, she stayed alone with the newest male. She became really calm for some weeks, and then suddenly, it already happened twice, she started behaving like a female again! by this I mean that she was courting again like one..because my words seem to have not much effect, here there is a video of it:






for the ones who didn't believe that the frog appearing in the first video with her was a male, her you can see him calling clearly...

No clutches came yet..they courted for a while but still no eggs..actually the female, even if she looks already a bit more chubby than in the first video, doesn't seem to get as massive as she used to be when I got clutches from her..well, let's see what happens!

Also I got two reports from calling females! one is from some professional friends, relating that attitude with territorial behaviour..even if i couldn't get more detailed information. 
Another really intereresting information, and this time with more details, it's about a frogger that has an accidental hybrid (el cope/azureus) and reported clutches as well as quite active calling! 

I talked also too some biologist friend that suggested the possibility of protogyny, and some other hobbyst relating the possibility of a genetical issue..

I still have to contact more people, I will keep updated!

greetings!


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## Gribit (Aug 23, 2021)

Fascinating thread,


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## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

This is such an interesting thread! I'm extremely interested to see how this turns out; please continue to update us


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

This was a necrobump, and many of the original posters no longer log in. Sorry.


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