# Can i mix this with my poison dart frogs?



## Guest (Nov 21, 2005)

Hi
~I was wondering if there are any gecko's that one can mix with poison dart frogs or if anyone has any experience mixing them with dart frogs?
~Also, I was wondering if it is ok to mix mantellas or tree frogs with poison dart frogs or if anyone has any experience with keeping them together?
~And finally can one mix any of the dendrobates ventrimaculatus or other frogs within this complex with the larger land based dendrobates such as azureus and tinctorius?

All of this would be happening in a 135. I am just curious what I can and cannot mix to create more diversity? And yes I am aware of all the purist out there that believe in keeping one species of poison dart frog per tank, I have had luck mixing, usually just requires closer attention to feeding and more of it, and lots of bromeliads. Thanks for any replies.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

some of the smaller tree frogs and smaller day geckos and other tropical geckos are ok, if can provide them a heat source and still keep the overall tank temp ok for the frogs. mantellas and darts are generally not considered mixable and i wouldnt recommend it, even between mantellas their requirements vary alot. For anything u need to research the specific requirements for that species and compare it to the darts you want to keep. 

If you search this forum you will find more info on mixing, alot of people saying its horrible, but you will also find some useful info. i do not advocate it though, your asking for trouble anytime u mix.


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*Mixing*

I don't recommend mixing unless it's an extremely large viv. If you have something large enough with enough ventilation, some treefrogs will do ok. Any other ground frog is in for it though (fighting, not likely to be habitat compatible). 

Mantellas require a lot more ventilation than darts (and due to this darts are resistent to a lot more diseases associated with low airflow humidity than mantellas). So, your darts could be carrying yet not suseptible to stuff like redleg (something that will quickly kill mantellas under stress). 

Plus you top that with the fact that most mantella are still WC.. just not a good idea.

Some people have kept some smaller Phelsuma in with frogs, but I've never done this. You always risk them mistaking the frog for a cricket. 

-Crystal


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " So, your darts could be carrying yet not suseptible to stuff like redleg (something that will quickly kill mantellas under stress). "


A point about redleg. This is a common name for a type of septicemia that is caused by a wide variety of bacteria that are normally either part of the bacterial living in the frog or normally in thier enviroment. Unless you are keeping your frogs in a aseptic enviroment, they will be exposed to red leg as a normal part of thier daily life. 
Red leg is typically only and issue if there is some stressor that reduces the frogs' immune system such as very crowded and dirty cages but it can appear in frogs that have done well for years that are housed singly in great enclosures. 

Ed


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*sorry for my quick discription*

I understand that most animals are exposed to certain bacterial agents constantly, and it's the stress that factors in when they succumb to it.. I was simply stating the the stress of the environment as well as the "house guests" would most certainly aid in the mantellas sucumbing to it (which darts are less likely to).

Sorry for the improper "picture" of how the events occur.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*Mantella's*

Mantellas do in fact love humid enviroment's.There are quite a few that actually thrive in a bog setup Milo's and golden's for example will do quite well in a low air flow situation.Yes they will benifit from a natural dry period but so do some PAF's.Just wanted to point that out so no one is detoured from getting this species as they are not as tricky as most people think.
cya

sorry rich i was typing at the same time you were.LOL


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

I will leave the comments on geckos to others. But I think it might be doable in that large a tank.

Mantellas would not be a good idea because they generally like it cooler than darts (though there is a significant temp overlap). If you want mantellas, there are several people in the US breeding them. I have 2 good-sized batches of tads in the water right now (gold mantellas). SO CB is possible, but they are definitely not as common as dendros right now.

I don't agree about the ventilation as stated earlier. Mine are in a fairly stagnant environment and, at least my golds, breed regularly. I have never seen a case of "redleg" in mantellas in 10 years of keeping them. But the WC are frequently loaded with intestinal nematodes.

Good luck!
Rich


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2005)

Thanks for the responses, I just wanted to touch on some of the points brought up. In my current terrariums I have some small fans made by coralife- they are smallish (about 2.5-3 inches squared). These push air across the terrarium. The main reason I put these in was to stop fogging/condensation of the glass and to also save my begonia rex from rotting. In my experience begonia rex (or begonias with a rhizome) need some air movement, if not they are prone to rot. I also have a small stream going through all of my terrariums too, which I feel helps to prevent stagnant air. I know some of the denrobates do not need streams such as d. tinctorus but mine do not seem to mind as they are always hoping in and around the stream. Also one of my d. tinctorus "line green siplawini loves to play around in the water- it is a real odd behaviour to stay the least. Also, I definitely would get captive bred mantellas as I would not chance the introdution of disease to my current frogs- even though I would quarintine them. Almost all the literature I have read seems to suggest that all wild caught mantellas have some sort of parasite or (bacterial) disease. Anyways, I'll save the wild caught mantellas for the people that are trying to breed them. Although mantella madagascariensis is one of my dream frogs- and man are they tempting as they are soooo cheap on lists. Although I would definitely be interested in gold mantellas, but would not be able to have the money for them until after christmas, if they are still available (sorry, priorities right?) thanks for the postings.


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*environmental overlaps*

Yes, some of the mantellas can deal with more stagnant air.. and if you have any fan in there at all it will help a lot. Mantellas also overlap some in temp preferences, but they prefer low 70 whereas dendros prefer high 70s. 

I think my main concern here is of territorial behavior of most dendos. I think interactions between the two species could be detrimental to the mantellas. Any sort of fighting would surely stress out the mantellas and make them quite at risk to disease. 

As long as you do pay attention to feeding, I think your best bet would be the vents. You could try some sort of day gecko, but then you would have to be concerned with some sort of basking spot that wouldn't raise the temperature of the whole tank too much (and wouldn't damage plants in the area). Can be done. Many people suggest keeping P. klemmeri in with dendros.. If you do any sort of day gecko, I would be vary wary about any thumbnail species. Would be best to stay with the larger dendros.


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I was also thinking about the same thing. How do you guys think a Jackson's Chemeleon would do?


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2005)

Quaz? as in lord Quaz. If so good call!


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

Hmmm.... the little guy that came out of the stomach of Arnold S. in total recall?


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Quaz said:


> Hmmm.... the little guy that came out of the stomach of Arnold S. in total recall?


Not out of Arnold's stomach. I think you are thinking of 'Kuato' who was the mutant leader of the Martian resistance. He was on the stomach of another member of the resistance. 

Sad that I have that little piece of useless trivia tucked away somewhere in my head. I'm a huge Philip K. Dick fan so I've pretty much read all his stories and books and seen the film adaptations, etc. 8) 

Bill


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Only highland dart frogs could potentially live with Mantella aurantiaca, like tricolors.

The real reason why I would never mix any type of frog, (only in a rare circumstance) is because there's a chance (considering these animals are from totally different areas of the world) of spreading disease that one animal is resistant to, but the other is not. 

This is already apparent from the exploitation of Xenopus laevis when waste water from labs is flushed outside spreading chytrids all over the globe.

Also, breeding success could be very difficult to achieve as mantellas require a totally different setup for breeding than dart frogs do.

I say small treefrogs are the best choice, as many are native to where dendrobates live. If you want to try, first have a tank in excess of a 100 gallons. Jhupp has a RETF in his 125 gallon tank. Keep LARGE dart frogs, like tincs, that like it warmer than say, a terribilis. this will prevent any rare occurance of hylids preying on the cb, nontoxic darts. Sometimes, my darts are still roaming after the lights are out for a bit, something very dangerous with a hungry hylid awaking.

The next issue is the cricket thing. Crickets, while may not harm the larger treefrog, could go after the sleeping tinc who sleeps on the ground. I highly recommend you keep the treefrogs and darts separate until both species are mature, and begin training the treefrogs to accept dead food.

Jhupp does this, by reheating frozen crickets and offering them to his red eyed treefrog with tweezers. I myself have trained my bombina to take dead food. The trick is to not feed them for a few days, let them miss a single feeding. This will make them more apt at striking at anything, and you can easily put a cricket in their face and they will snap at it quickly. It is a time saving thing, and less messy as I can guarantee medicine or vitamins get to the frogs before the insects wipe them off or fall into the water.

I would like to add, treefrogs need more ventilation than darts. They also need large pools with overhanging branches for breeding, so unless you have a big vivarium for that, chances are you cannot breed the hylids. hylids produce a lot more waste, so unless you want your tank ending up having to be torn down and soil changed, you can't get by with a small tank.

However, I still am pretty anti-mixing species. I would only attempt it after you kept both types of frogs long enough (and perhaps bred both) before you try something like that.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2005)

I dont think the jackson chameleon question was awnsered, so here it is. I baby chameleon might not do any damage but an adult will eat the minute frogs. I dont know much about chameleon requirements, but their adult size suggests a "No". Brookesia or their African counterparts might be a better choice. 

As for Chytrid, I dont think it matters from were the frogs come from anymore. Any frog has the potential of carrying Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis; especially aquatic amphibians that are not affected by the fungus but are still carriers. Strict Quarantine is one near-sure way of preventing outbreaks. 

Habitat, Habits, feeding requirements, temperment , temperature requirements (including seasonal changes), size variations, quarantine and your own common sense will tell you if you can mix species. Also learn from mistakes you've made and keep an eye for any developing problems. Problems are almost always subtle; so get some experience with the species you chose to mix, before you actually do. 

"Do what you will, But Harm None"


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2005)

If its perfect for the frogs, its too wet for the lizards, if its perfect for the lizards its too dry for the frogs.

Basically, whenever ive seen the two mixed well, its a Gecko vivarium ontop of a Dart vivarium. This way you can keep the climate at the bottom suitable for darts, but still have enough air space to dry out the higher regions of the tank for the Geckos. And id imagine your allways going to get a bit of a no-mans land in between.


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