# Few Novice Questions



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Finally started a vivarium. During this path, I made few careless mistakes and now some of my questions need some answers.

This is my setup as of Dec 28, 2013:

Aqueon 5 gallon aquarium (16.2" x 8.4" x 10.5")


1. In the initial setup, I forgot to place the screen separator between the substrate and the drainage substrate, what is the purpose of this screen? My plant and their roots seem to be very healthy without it. Would problems arise in the future without this screen separator?

2. During the initial setup ,I never put any thought into a drain at the bottom of the tank. What is the best way to fix this problem? I mist the tank everyday but haven't noticed too much water in the lower drainage level. Should I be concerned? Any solutions?

3. I was thinking of getting a tree frog in this setup. Currently, I'm using (2) Jungle Dawn™ LED Vivarium Light Bulbs. Is a UVB bulb necessary? If so is would 5.0 bulb too much or should I get the 2.0? How will the UVB effect the plants? 

4. What microfauna do you all recommend? Right now I have absolutely no animals in this tank. 

5. Are Phoenix worms a solid staple diet for a tree frog? 

Thank you so much for taking time to read my post and answer my questions. It is truly appreciated 

-Koshy George


----------



## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Without a substrate barrier the substrate will gradually fill in the spaces of the drainage layer and the water will wick it's way up your substrate and then saturate your substrate and make it into a swamp causing a swampy unhealthy place.


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Oh ok. Any solutions to it now? Or the only thing I can do is break it down and rebuild it?


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Well, most everyone will tell you that 5 gallons is too small for even a single frog.

I wouldn't tear it apart. It looks great. Not every tank has to have an animal in it. But you could definitely do some research on what type of animal would do ok in a 5 gallon tank with the conditions you have set up now. I wouldn't worry too much about not putting the screen in.

If the water level does get too high, you can always jam a turkey baster into a back corner and suck out some water.

The light would depend on what animal you end up putting in.

Microfauna are extremely cool. You could put springtails, isopods in there. I'm sure there are others but I'm not sure what they are.

I believe that Phoenix Worms should not be used as a staple. For tree frogs, I believe that crickets are pretty standard.

You should definitely post this or any questions about tree frogs in the tree frog forum: Tree frogs - Dendroboard

You also might want to check out: Frog Forum - Home

They discuss more types of frogs than the people here do. 

Tank looks great anyway, I wouldn't pull it apart.


----------



## Jeremy M (Oct 19, 2012)

you could attempt to solve both problems at the same time (no barrier and no siphon access) by trying to drill a drainage hole through the bottom of the tank... needless to say, this would be quite a tricky operation and shouldn't be done with any frogs in the tank. It would be easier and safer to dismantle/remantle the tank, but it's just a suggestion. Chances are you could get by fine for a little while with what you have, just not long-term.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

1 and 2 combined. While gturmindright is right, and the best solution, to make sure it is a viv that can stand the test of time, would be to strip it down and start over, there is an alternative.
Don't ever hook that tank up to a misting system. Always mist the tank by hand. This allows you to closely monitor the tank. With care, you can find a balance that will water your plants and provide humidity for your frogs, without building up any water. It just takes a little extra care.
There is something that will make this process easier. Just make sure the viv always has some terrestrial plants (obviously live) so that there are plenty of live roots in the substrate. Your plants can help pull water up out of the substrate this way. Still, this only helps if you are monitoring your water usage. 

You can also scoop out a corner of the viv, forming a small "dry pond" area. If you get a little carried away with watering, you can siphon from out of your pond. People will do a slight variation of this by sinking a 4" tall PVC pipe into their 3" substrate (keeping the center free of substrate). You siphon from inside of this tube. You can hide the tube with a rock or a piece of wood.

Now, if you do nothing, and don't monitor, you could experience issues. The problems the gturmindright touched on, can lead to:
disgusting smell in viv
dead plants, even a complete tank die off, from drowned roots
in extreme cases, frogs forced to live with "wet feet", on soggy swampland, can get a bacteria that rots feet right off the frog overnight.
If you combine a much too wet substrate, with poor ventilation, animals in the viv can potentially develop respiratory system problems.
So yes, the problems can be serious, but you CAN work around it if you are careful. If you monitor your misting carefully, I see no reason it cannot run long term.

Think of a potted plant. It should have drainage holes. It is the best way to pot a plant. It keeps the roots from drowning you over water. If however, you pot a plant with no drainage holes, you can still keep it alive for years if you are careful to never over water.

Unfortunately, I see a bigger issue. In my opinion, a 5 gallon viv is not large enough for any frog. It's a beautiful viv though. You've done a lot with your space. There are some really cool pet bugs out there that might love that setup. Perhaps Frogparty could comment on pet bugs that might work out. He's worked with some amazing Mantids in the past.

3. Sorry, I don't keep tree frogs. I assume they would be like dart frogs, where UVB is not *required* (but is still a good long term goal). Instead, our dart frogs get flies that have been dusted with vitamins and calcium, including the vitamin D that UVB is usually used for.
Again, I don't keep tree frogs, so verify this.

4. I wouldn't use giant oranges in a viv that small. They would likely view the entire viv as their dinner plate, and munch on some plants.The tank is not large enough to support multiple types of the same microfauna, so I'd probably go with silver springtails and either dwarf white or dwarf purple isopods. Here is some culturing info on microfauna http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html , and you can hit me up for starter cultures if you'd like. Check your local sources first to save yourself $15 in shipping.

5. Others are better qualified to field this one. I feed thumbnails so I've never really looked into them. I believe they morph into big nasty beasts if they escape predation.


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Being is how small it is and how good it looks I would for sure use it just not for any frogs.
If it was me I would put a Ghost Mantis in there. They are a hardy mantis that do well in most any condition. Since you have no way to drain you won't want to soak your viv ever. The Ghost mantis likes to be misted about once a day. You can use a screen top to allow air to move through there giving it a chance to dry out abit.
mantidforum.net has a lot of good info if that would be something you were interested in.


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for all the input, ideas and suggestions. 



oneshot said:


> Well, most everyone will tell you that 5 gallons is too small for even a single frog.
> 
> I wouldn't tear it apart. It looks great. Not every tank has to have an animal in it. But you could definitely do some research on what type of animal would do ok in a 5 gallon tank with the conditions you have set up now. I wouldn't worry too much about not putting the screen in.
> 
> ...


oneshot thanks for all your help, compliments, and the link to the forum, I'll definately look into that. 



Jeremy M said:


> you could attempt to solve both problems at the same time (no barrier and no siphon access) by trying to drill a drainage hole through the bottom of the tank... needless to say, this would be quite a tricky operation and shouldn't be done with any frogs in the tank. It would be easier and safer to dismantle/remantle the tank, but it's just a suggestion. Chances are you could get by fine for a little while with what you have, just not long-term.


That sounds too risky. Knowing me and my luck I would crack the glass.



Pumilo said:


> 1 and 2 combined. While gturmindright is right, and the best solution, to make sure it is a viv that can stand the test of time, would be to strip it down and start over, there is an alternative.
> Don't ever hook that tank up to a misting system. Always mist the tank by hand. This allows you to closely monitor the tank. With care, you can find a balance that will water your plants and provide humidity for your frogs, without building up any water. It just takes a little extra care.
> There is something that will make this process easier. Just make sure the viv always has some terrestrial plants (obviously live) so that there are plenty of live roots in the substrate. Your plants can help pull water up out of the substrate this way. Still, this only helps if you are monitoring your water usage.
> 
> ...


Pumilo, thank you so much for taking time to answer all my questions. I really appreciate it. So far I've been very careful in the watering of this tank. I haven't noticed any smell. The plants look like they are thriving, Neoregelia 'Eoz' actually started producing a pup. I wanted to setup an automatic misting system but considering everyone's advice I'll stick to what I'm doing now. 

Thank you for the contact. I PM'd Frogparty regarding a pet bug. Hopefully I'll hear something from him soon.

I'll let you know if I can't find a local contact for microfauna culture. Thanks again for the advice you given me.



Aldross said:


> Being is how small it is and how good it looks I would for sure use it just not for any frogs.
> If it was me I would put a Ghost Mantis in there. They are a hardy mantis that do well in most any condition. Since you have no way to drain you won't want to soak your viv ever. The Ghost mantis likes to be misted about once a day. You can use a screen top to allow air to move through there giving it a chance to dry out abit.
> mantidforum.net has a lot of good info if that would be something you were interested in.


Thanks Aldross. I mist just the moss once a day and the whole tank twice a week. Every day I remove the top so it could get air outed completely and lose some of the humidity. 

I actually contacted a member regarding a ghost mantis. Thanks for the link. I'll do some research and look that forum.


----------



## JBE (Nov 16, 2012)

I'll throw in another vote for a mantis. Cool to watch, and low maintenance.


----------



## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

That tank really isn't set up well for mantis.

They need branches to hang from upside down unobstructed to molt, and really don't care about substrate decoration, bromeliads, etc. 

A 5 gal for mantis should be a vert- filled with twigs and the like to let them climb, ambush bugs (upside down their preferred method) etc

Mantis are actually really high maintenance compared to dart frogs. Low humidity = bad molts and death. Many mantis don't like food that doesn't fly.... So no crickets. Raising and feeding out house flies and blue bottle flies is a pain and you need to keep pupae refrigerated. 

Best mantis to raise maintenance wise I can think of is Deroplatys species ( Malaysian dead leaf) they eat anything. Being able to feed out crickets and roaches makes life much easier



That set up looks better suited to a vampire crab, tarantula, or centipede


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Thanks for the advice frogparty. 

Can someone please recommend a decent fogger? In the past I've had the Exoterra fogger, but I wasn't too impressed with it. Any other choices or recommendations?


----------



## Disquiet (Dec 22, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend putting a tarantula in there. Other than the size of the tank, it's not really suitable. There's a developing consensus in that community (myself included) regarding using arid setups with a water dish. The humidity myth surrounding the tropical species is just that: a myth. Ventilation is much more important. Plus, a tarantula would completely destroy the aesthetics of the tank in no time flat--even the terrestrial species who don't web a ton will excavate extensively and pile dirt on top of plants, walls, anything. Check out these links and feel free to PM me with any questions if you do consider it: 
MYTHS: RELATIVE HUMIDITY
SPIDERS, CALGARY - MISTY-EYED MISTING

That little sermon aside, it's a great looking tank!!


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I got a kick out of that thread. Sarcasm is the best way to teach.
I owned many tarantulas back before the internet was accessible to everyone. I never once misted them. They lived long happy lives as half pet rock half destroyer of cricket souls. 
Give them a hide, a fake plant, and the smallest water dish they sell add a sponge and leave them be.

Wish my wife would let me have them again. I miss keeping them. So many I wished I had when I was younger. Now I can afford them but they are not allowed to cross this doorway.


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Guess I'll just stick with plants and some microfauna for this tank. Atleast I have an excuse to setup a bigger tank  Thanks everyone for your input and knowledge


----------



## jpm995 (Sep 15, 2013)

I would think a thumbnail dart frog would be ok in that size viv. They can be very colorful though many hide a lot.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

jpm995 said:


> I would think a thumbnail dart frog would be ok in that size viv. They can be very colorful though many hide a lot.


I would not keep any _ranitomeya_ in that tank. Its still too small of a space; thumbs will use ALL the space you will give them. I have on occasion used a 5.5 gallon as a quarantine for juvies, but nothing else.


----------



## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

I'd think that setup would be great for geosesarma crabs

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


----------



## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Great grow out tank for starting off cuttings and smaller plants before introducing them to a larger tank. I think the compact size will allow more intense light to color up the bromeliads as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

jpm995 said:


> I would think a thumbnail dart frog would be ok in that size viv. They can be very colorful though many hide a lot.


I didn't want to venture into dart frogs because of my lack of experience.



tclipse said:


> I'd think that setup would be great for geosesarma crabs
> 
> Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk


I looked into them and LLL has some for sale. I don't have a water source. Land crabs still need a water source to wet their gills and I have absolutely no room to put a water dish



Fantastica said:


> Great grow out tank for starting off cuttings and smaller plants before introducing them to a larger tank. I think the compact size will allow more intense light to color up the bromeliads as well.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk


So true!!! My brom is looking absolutely amazing. And it's even launched a pup. I'm really excited about it. I'll post a FTS very soon.


----------



## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Yeah, I would just enjoy it as a terrarium.


----------



## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Well, a centipede might be okay, although I can't see the pic right now


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Sorry for the hazy picture, but this is what it looks like as of today. I'm pretty excited about the growth and progress of this tank.



I'm open to any recommendations or suggestions. Thanks for looking and all the comments.


----------



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I just want to add that you should keep an eye on how much you water for the broms sake.Usually broms planted on the bottom of a tank will rot over time from the bottom up and you will lose the brom.This is why you will usually see them mounted to a background or a log.I'd just hate to see you lose your brom.


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

oddlot said:


> I just want to add that you should keep an eye on how much you water for the broms sake.Usually broms planted on the bottom of a tank will rot over time from the bottom up and you will lose the brom.This is why you will usually see them mounted to a background or a log.I'd just hate to see you lose your brom.


I saw that, actually read it "Bromeliads - What you need to know!" 

I don't directly water the bromeliad, I just make sure the axil has water in it. 

Should I take it out of the soil and mount it elsewhere? I know that root system of a brom is different when it's planted in the soil vs mounted, is that something to take into consideration?


----------



## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

If the soil becomes saturated or stays a little wet for a period of time it will rot.I mount all of mine to my backgrounds.Here's a couple pics of my tanks with broms.They are all mounted to backgrounds and sidegrounds.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

When I want to mount a brom at the bottom of the tank, I like to mount it to a small piece of cork bark or ghost wood, then just lie it on the bottom of the viv. A little leaf litter tossed over it and you can have the look of bottom mounted brom, while still retaining excellent drainage and aeration for your roots. Basically, it's still set up as the epiphyte it is supposed to be.


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

oddlot said:


> If the soil becomes saturated or stays a little wet for a period of time it will rot.I mount all of mine to my backgrounds.Here's a couple pics of my tanks with broms.They are all mounted to backgrounds and sidegrounds.


Your tank looks amazing!



Pumilo said:


> When I want to mount a brom at the bottom of the tank, I like to mount it to a small piece of cork bark or ghost wood, then just lie it on the bottom of the viv. A little leaf litter tossed over it and you can have the look of bottom mounted brom, while still retaining excellent drainage and aeration for your roots. Basically, it's still set up as the epiphyte it is supposed to be.


Best option for my tank is placing the brom on a small piece of cork bark and lie it on the bottom of the vivarium. How did you or what's the best route to attach the brom's on the cork bark? Do you put sphagnum moss around the root structure?


----------



## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> When I want to mount a brom at the bottom of the tank, I like to mount it to a small piece of cork bark or ghost wood, then just lie it on the bottom of the viv. A little leaf litter tossed over it and you can have the look of bottom mounted brom, while still retaining excellent drainage and aeration for your roots. Basically, it's still set up as the epiphyte it is supposed to be.


I like that idea. I have 5 coming to me soon and was thinking of a way that I could keep one on the ground.


----------



## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I do the same as saying Pumilo. I generally cut in half (horizontally) a cork tube and I put neos in holes (easy to make holes in a cork tube). 
But now I have a dim light on the bottom of my tanks (my frogs do not like too much light), so I put broms higher.


----------



## Payara (Jul 14, 2010)

Just wanted to share an update. I added a Neoregelia 'Wee Willy' from NEHerp. Also replanted the Neoregelia 'Eoz' and added sphagnum moss around the base. I'm enjoying this terrarium and hobby more than I expected. Thank you for all the guidance help everyone has offered. Thoughts and opinions are more than welcomed.

Thanks


----------



## Tazman (May 26, 2013)

Looks great if you like it keep it the way it is.


----------

