# Clay Substrate How-To



## Pumilo

I was asked a couple times recently for a guide on my clay substrate. I have copied the emails I sent on those, along with a few pics. Want to thank Matt, Brent, Jason, Ed, and others, for all the info they were so willing to share on clay substrates. Here is what I came up with.

My clay supplier is Mile Hi Ceramics, INC. 77 Lipan 303-825-4570
You are looking for RedArt and Bentonite.
*Clay Recipe*
3 Quarts RedArt powdered clay
1/2 Quart Sodium Bentonite powdered clay
1/2 Quart Calcium Bentonite powdered clay
1 Quart Brown Peat OR Coco Fiber (ground up like dirt)
1/2 Quart Fine Aragonite Sand
1/4 to 1/2 cup Calcium Carbonate
2 TBSP Sugar
2 TBSP Corn Starch
Mix all ingredients except sugar and corn starch in a 5 gallon bucket. Dry mix it. Boil Sugar and Corn Starch into water. Use water to hydrate mix. I use about 3/4 of a 2 quart container. Mix like crazy. I use a drill and a paint stirrer from WalMart. The better ones don't work as they get bogged down in the thick mix, get the cheapy with the red plastic stirrer on the end from WalMart.
Grab a handful of clay maybe about the size of a couple of golf balls. Squish clay into about 1/4 inch thick patties. Place patties onto 1/4 inch screen. I made a screen box out of four, 20" 2x4's with the screen nailed to the top.


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## Pumilo

Place a cookie sheet or a disposable aluminum cake pan under the screen so that your little cubes of clay will fall straight in. This will help to reduce the sticking together that you are going to get. Push clay patties through screen to make into little cubes. I like to use this rubber sanding block that I got at WalMart. I push down and then slide the block towards me while still pushing down. Doing small sections at a time makes it easy.


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## Pumilo

Bake at about 300 until dry. Or you can just just air dry. After it has cooled, you will break up the chunks. It breaks up into small 1/4 inch cubes pretty easily. Some people don't bother with the cubes as it is the hardest part. I think it is important because it makes for lots of gaps between particles for springtail growth, soil aeration, drainage, and root growth.
Here are a couple pics before baking.


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## Pumilo

Here are pics after baking. Note all the space between particles for microfauna growth.


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## Pumilo

Here it is in the viv and ready for the last step. This was in my brothers viv and we decided to hide the edges of the clay with ABG mix. For the last step you dissolve some mycorrhizae inoculant into water and begin misting the viv to re-moisten the clay. Some of the best mycorrhizae inoculants can be found at hydroponics shops. I used a brand called White Widow because it contains 12 different types/species of inoculant.
You want to moisten the clay gradually. Mist it down and wait five minutes for it to soak in. Mist it again and wait 5 more. Continue until clay is fully moistened.
NOTE: Once clay is hydrated it should be disturbed AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE! Too much handling will clump it together. Because of this, I choose to plant it while it is still dry and then quickly mist that planted section. If you need to add plants later, it is best done as cuttings so you can just poke a hole with a piece of wire or a drill bit and stick the cutting right in. You can also just lay the cutting on top and it will eventually take root and begin to grow upright.


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## Pumilo

Some explanations:
The bentonite you get at the pottery place is sodium bentonite, 50 lbs is about $12. That's what most people work with. Calcium Bentonite is available on eBay. It's more expensive at about $32 for 16 lbs shipped. The Calcium in it adds some obvious benefits but since you add calcium Carbonite anyway, You could really substitute and use just Sodium Bentonite.
Calcium Bentonite links 16.5 #'s Calcium BENTONITE Clay KOI ponds & plants WW - eBay (item 260711386448 end time Feb-20-11 21:22:42 PST)
5.5 lb Calcium BENTONITE Clay KOI ponds & plants - eBay (item 250616134654 end time Feb-09-11 16:10:19 PST)
The 16 lb size will last for quite a few tanks.
Aragonite sand is available at coral reef pet shops. (aquarium stores) You are looking for the smallest size of oolitic sand or sugar five aragonite sand. Again, you could just sub regular fine sand but I like the extra calcium and I had a bunch lying around.
Calcium Carbonite. I use the NOW brand with the orange label available at Vitamin Cottage.
The sugar and corn starch are to help in establishing a Biofilm which helps keep the particles, or cubes, of clay separate. It may mold just a little but springtails and isopods will help keep that in check and it will stop pretty quickly.
This recipe would also make a fine background mix although the cornstarch and sugar are probably unneccessary there. You could probably skip the sand too. The calcium may still prove beneficial to frogs but could be skipped. For a background recipe I would sub some of the coco/peat for some ground sphagnum moss to try to encourage future moss growth. My last batch I blenderized some live sphagnum and some live sheet moss in as part of the coco/peat/sphagnum. Time will tell how that works out.
Lay down an inch of Turface before the clay just to cut down on the amount of clay you need. Turface is available at a John Deere Landscaper. Ask for TURFACE or INFIELD CONDITIONER. The grade you want is *ALL SPORT PRO*.
Drainage so far has been excellent. I think the cubes method helps with this. Also, this is my RedArt clay. I do NOT trust a bentonite based clay (but obviously, I like it as an ammendment.) It is important to NEVER go digging around in your moist clay mix. If you need to plant something, either poke the stem down in or even just lay it on top. It will root and eventually grow standing up.
When I plant mine, I like to use a handful or two of ABG mix around the roots of each plant. I put some clay cubes over the ABG.
Remember to use LOTS of leaf litter!!

Sorry if we got a little scattered there, as I said, this is translated from a series of emails.


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## xBUBBLESxoOo

YESSS!!!
Thanks For the info Doug, Its nice to have the instructions from beginning to end, and pictures make it better..


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## Mr. elder

got a few questions.So is the mane reasons for the clay substrate, to boost calcium in inverts .in nature the clay that walls up and bellow the wall aren't to many inverts . but in the moss and rotting logs and leafs . seem to a great amount more inverts .if most are eating fungi . mold doesn't like clay . here in the northwest seen mold in leafs and the ground spread for seemingly for every . the mold is keep in check buy lower humidity and heat from the sun . when it rains it has the ability to come up and form mushrooms and other type of fungi. just asking because when herping in the rain forest hear , that notice all i can and the most productive places are burned forest and volcano zone . after 80 eruption of st Helen . the zone now is super productive . sounding lakes are very productive. the fish in the nearest lake ,fish grow up at twice the rate of other lakes in area . just throwing my two cents in . I think I'm going to burn that cherry wood. use the ash and charcoal mix with fresh and rotting leafs coco peat ect. and may be some clay to hold the charcoal down . and has any used egg shell power as calcium upper in substrate . and fungi stains .I have power fungi stains about 16 in one power . think i going trow a spoon full in the mix to . for the plants mostly ,but the invert will eat the rest . and lite tank sit for month or two see it does . these is my two cent , if i'm wrong lite me know ,these is info from living hear not there.


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## Ed

The clay provides several different functions..

1) the interaction between the clay and the leaf litter is typically very dynamic in the form of biological productivity. 

2) clay that contains calcium can have the calcium taken up by the frogs either through thier drinking patch (if there are free calcium ions) or as calcium particles stuck to the inverts or in thier digestive tract. 

3) mold may not "like" clay as clay as it stands does not contain organics to encourage the growth of molds.. I suggest taking some red art clay and mixing a bunch of corn starch and sugar into it and throughly wetting it and seeing what happens then... (don't add any mycrorhizzoids as they can inhibit how dramatic it can look...) 

4) there are significant differences between the productivity of a disturbed system and the productivity of a mature established system. In addition to these two differences, they tend to support different species and in different numbers (as a suggestion, look up R/K selection theory and R/K species selection). Your comparision is an incomplete one.. (I have no objection to the use of charcoal etc as it has good effects in tropcial soils.. but you are using an incomplete decision... ) 

Ed


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## Ed

Nice summary Doug.. 
I mix it all wet into a slurry and then filter it through some news paper over a screen. When it is the consistency I want I simply turn it over on the screen, pull off the newspaper (any that doesn't come off is simply invert chow) and push it through the screen with a putty knife although I want to see if any of the tools used for spreading tile grout would work better. 
We both get the same basic results. 

Ed


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## alex111683

So those that use the clay substrate have a much better pumilio froglet success rate?


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## Pumilo

Mr. elder said:


> got a few questions.So is the mane reasons for the clay substrate, to boost calcium in inverts .in nature the clay that walls up and bellow the wall aren't to many inverts . but in the moss and rotting logs and leafs . seem to a great amount more inverts .if most are eating fungi . mold doesn't like clay . here in the northwest seen mold in leafs and the ground spread for seemingly for every . the mold is keep in check buy lower humidity and heat from the sun . when it rains it has the ability to come up and form mushrooms and other type of fungi. just asking because when herping in the rain forest hear , that notice all i can and the most productive places are burned forest and volcano zone . after 80 eruption of st Helen . the zone now is super productive . sounding lakes are very productive. the fish in the nearest lake ,fish grow up at twice the rate of other lakes in area . just throwing my two cents in . I think I'm going to burn that cherry wood. use the ash and charcoal mix with fresh and rotting leafs coco peat ect. and may be some clay to hold the charcoal down . and has any used egg shell power as calcium upper in substrate . and fungi stains .I have power fungi stains about 16 in one power . think i going trow a spoon full in the mix to . for the plants mostly ,but the invert will eat the rest . and lite tank sit for month or two see it does . these is my two cent , if i'm wrong lite me know ,these is info from living hear not there.


The main reason is to supply tiny froglets, like pumilio, who are too small to take dusted fruit flies, with a source of calcium. When they eat a springtail, they will sometimes ingest a bit of clay along with it. The clay, of course, has been enriched with calcium.Pumilios are known for having calcium deficiencies and dropping dead after a few months. People who have been using the clay substrates for a while are reporting good results getting past this problem. When used with good amounts of leaf litter, and the occasional grape, bit of apple, mushroom, etc., Clay substrates have been proven to be very conducive to good microfauna growth. Microfauna, referring to springtails, isopods, and various assorted bug-beasties. These questions have been answered by people more knowledgable than I, in this thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html It's a long thread, but I encourage anybody interested in clay substrates to read it once or twice.


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## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Nice summary Doug..
> I mix it all wet into a slurry and then filter it through some news paper over a screen. When it is the consistency I want I simply turn it over on the screen, pull off the newspaper (any that doesn't come off is simply invert chow) and push it through the screen with a putty knife although I want to see if any of the tools used for spreading tile grout would work better.
> We both get the same basic results.
> 
> Ed


Thank you Ed. Of course my method directly evolved from your screening method. On mine I just slap the screen a few times to release the cubes instead of slicing them with a putty knife. So yes, just two different methods for the same result. 
Thanks again for your help in my earlier batches of clay substrate and forming this method.


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## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Thank you Ed. Of course my method directly evolved from your screening method. On mine I just slap the screen a few times to release the cubes instead of slicing them with a putty knife. So yes, just two different methods for the same result.
> Thanks again for your help in my earlier batches of clay substrate and forming this method.


No need to thank me.. I gave you thanks for the good explination.. 

Ed


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## Mr. elder

I read allot more. and it make a little more scene now. just got to the substrate on my tank and just wandering whats the best for these tank . it make scents what ed said by being incomplete . what is the PH after done with your substrate ? It seems to only benefit every thing . the only thing I wonder if the PH is higher . thanks for the feed back


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## Pumilo

I'm afraid I've never checked the PH. I admit to going off others research as far as that goes. It was pointed out in one of the threads that calcium carbonate is probably a better amendment than your typical garden lime for just that reason.


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## Mr. elder

between the calcium boost and allot of trace elements. It seems that clay is the only medium that can hold all those elements (in place). the only thing I don't have is calcium clay . have to of allot of eggs shell powder and fine aragonite . wood ash is also 25 to 45% calcium carbonate, less then 10% potash and less then 1%phosphates .and allot of trace elements . seem that it wouldn't hurt any thing . and charcoal could help keep the clay from clumping ,while still having some air space for inverts. tell me what you think, if doing pretty much your clay recipe ,with the use of ash in the clay and adding charcoal in between the clay .and think I'll be alright not using calcium clay with adding so much pure calcium with egg shell, aragonite and ash , to the c-clay and standard bentonite i have.sorry if annoying you guys with a all the questions. thanks Theo


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## patm

Pumilio, just curious how the clay holds up over time. With heavy misting and high humidity, would it naturally clump and become impermiable over time? Also, how do you think the nutrient base would hold up over time? Would this have to be replaced over time, or do you think you could get several good years out of it?

Very informative, thanks for sharing.

Pat


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## Pumilo

Mr. elder said:


> between the calcium boost and allot of trace elements. It seems that clay is the only medium that can hold all those elements (in place). the only thing I don't have is calcium clay . have to of allot of eggs shell powder and fine aragonite . wood ash is also 25 to 45% calcium carbonate, less then 10% potash and less then 1%phosphates .and allot of trace elements . seem that it wouldn't hurt any thing . and charcoal could help keep the clay from clumping ,while still having some air space for inverts. tell me what you think, if doing pretty much your clay recipe ,with the use of ash in the clay and adding charcoal in between the clay .and think I'll be alright not using calcium clay with adding so much pure calcium with egg shell, aragonite and ash , to the c-clay and standard bentonite i have.sorry if annoying you guys with a all the questions. thanks Theo


Mr. Elder, I would think that the wood ash could be a good amendment for the calcium and other trace elements. Just be careful that you don't go overboard, as eggshell, aragonite, wood ash, and calcium carbonite can all raise PH. I never considered carbon as an additive. I have always used carbon in the ABG mix I use to help keep the soil smelling fresh and also for better drainage. I don't foresee any problems with using some carbon/charcoal between the clay particles.


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## Pumilo

alex111683 said:


> So those that use the clay substrate have a much better pumilio froglet success rate?


Some are reporting great results with pumilio using the clay substrates.



patm said:


> Pumilio, just curious how the clay holds up over time. With heavy misting and high humidity, would it naturally clump and become impermiable over time? Also, how do you think the nutrient base would hold up over time? Would this have to be replaced over time, or do you think you could get several good years out of it?
> 
> Very informative, thanks for sharing.
> 
> Pat


Pat, the first clay I made was based on bentonite and I do not anticipate a long life with it. It seemed to get soft and soggy quickly. The redart based substrate seems much firmer even when wet. The clay substrates are supposed to be beneficial in keeping humidity up. You should be able to cut back some on misting and still get good breeding. I can only hope and guess that it will hold up well as I am a newcomer to clay substrates. Ed, Brent Brock, and Matt Mirabello would be more able to answer these questions. The calcium is mixed in, becoming a part of the clay, so should remain accessible over the life of the clay.
Clay substrates are still to be considered experimental but I do hope to get at least several years out of it.
Can people who have been using clay longer chime in here?


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## Pumilo

Thanks Jason! High praise indeed. I couldn't have put this together without you.


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## flapjax3000

Mr. elder said:


> I read allot more. and it make a little more scene now. just got to the substrate on my tank and just wandering whats the best for these tank . it make scents what ed said by being incomplete . what is the PH after done with your substrate ? It seems to only benefit every thing . the only thing I wonder if the PH is higher . thanks for the feed back


Most clays have an akaline based pH of around 9-10. This includes both sodium and calcium bentonites.

Red Art Clay which is actually Hydrous Aluminum Silicate has an acidic pH range of 4-6.

When mixed depending on your proportions used, you can assume the pH will fall somewhere in the middle (a soil test kit is the only way to get an accurate reading). I personlly use about 1:2 ratio of red art to bentonite clay which would puts my soil pH just over 7 on average.

If you are trying to mimic true rainforest soil then you would need a lower pH. Most rainforest soil has a pH range of 4-5. So a good way to lower the pH of the clay substrate is to add peat moss. Sphagnum peat has a pH of 3.5. When it is added you can drastically lower you pH to an optimum level without having to add an sulfur product. There are other forms of peat that are not as acidic because the soil content contains lime.

I just play around with it and see what pH levels I can get that are best for the plants in the viv. I am not sure if there is an optimum level of soil pH that are trying to achieve for the darts. Ed is there any literature on this?

This is a good thread thank you.


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## flapjax3000

patm said:


> Pumilio, just curious how the clay holds up over time. With heavy misting and high humidity, would it naturally clump and become impermiable over time? Also, how do you think the nutrient base would hold up over time? Would this have to be replaced over time, or do you think you could get several good years out of it?
> 
> Very informative, thanks for sharing.
> 
> Pat


The clay even under heavy misting retains it shape well. Several people on this board have made drip walls and ponds out of clay and experienced little to no erosion. My oldest viv that contains a clay based substrate is about 18 months old now, and I do not see any signs of the granules clumping. Just make sure to dig around as little as possible. The clay will press together very easily when wet.

One method I use that helps prevent the shape of the clay from eroding is to add Turface into the wet bentonite/red art clay mix before baking. The clay will bond to the Turface during the baking, yet still is small enough to be pressed through a screen. 

As for the nutrient base, the frogs obtain calcium when a particle is stuck to microfauna and then eaten by the frog, not by the microfauna eating the particle and then passing the nutrient onto the frog. It is not like an organic substrate where bacteria and micro-organisms break down the organic material. Plants can potentially absorbed most of the nutrients over time, but I imagine by the time a clay substrate would need to to be replaced you be ready to change the viv anyway.


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## Ed

flapjax3000 said:


> The clay even under heavy misting retains it shape well. Several people on this board have made drip walls and ponds out of clay and experienced little to no erosion. My oldest viv that contains a clay based substrate is about 18 months old now, and I do not see any signs of the granules clumping. Just make sure to dig around as little as possible. The clay will press together very easily when wet.
> 
> One method I use that helps prevent the shape of the clay from eroding is to add Turface into the wet bentonite/red art clay mix before baking. The clay will bond to the Turface during the baking, yet still is small enough to be pressed through a screen.
> 
> As for the nutrient base, the frogs obtain calcium when a particle is stuck to microfauna and then eaten by the frog, not by the microfauna eating the particle and then passing the nutrient onto the frog. It is not like an organic substrate where bacteria and micro-organisms break down the organic material. Plants can potentially absorbed most of the nutrients over time, but I imagine by the time a clay substrate would need to to be replaced you be ready to change the viv anyway.


There are several routes calcium from the clay can end up inside the frog

1) through accidental ingestion while capturing or attempting to capture a prey item. The tongue is sticky and small particles of all kinds adhere to it. This also needs access to bare clay. 

2) through accidental ingestion of particle stuck to the prey species 

3) through particles that have been ingested by the prey species (clay can be ingested while feeding by invertebrates either accidentally or deliberately (as they need some level of calcium for their own metabolic needs)

4) deliberately by absorbtion through the skin (particularly on thier ventral side (thier drinking patch)). Not that the frog has to have access to the clay for this to work so covering all of the clay inhibits this... 

Clay also fosters a microbial enviroment that tends to lock up as much of the nutrients as possible and this along with the continued influx of nutrients (dusted feeders, leaf litter, new plants) makes this unlikely that you decide to break down the enclosure based on aesthetics before you have to break it down based on nutrients. This does not mean that you cannot experience localized pockets of nutrient deficiency for the plants as nutrient input and cycling are not going to have as many processes as those seen in the wild for distributing nutrients but if that does show up it can be handled on a localized level without tearing down the tank. 

Some comments

Ed


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## patm

Thanks, guys, great info!


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## flapjax3000

Ed said:


> There are several routes calcium from the clay can end up inside the frog
> 
> 3) through particles that have been ingested by the prey species (clay can be ingested while feeding by invertebrates either accidentally or deliberately (as they need some level of calcium for their own metabolic needs)


Does this mean that invertebrates pass on nutrients that have been broken down within their own system or it is in their system not yet digested while they are eaten by the frog? 



Ed said:


> Clay also fosters a microbial enviroment that tends to lock up as much of the nutrients as possible and this along with the continued influx of nutrients (dusted feeders, leaf litter, new plants) makes this unlikely that you decide to break down the enclosure based on aesthetics before you have to break it down based on nutrients.


Sorry I am little confused. Are you saying the nutrient base will be used up and will have to be replaced, or the addition of nutrients will sustain it over time except for localized areas? I thought microfauna helps to redistribute and free up nutrients.


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## flapjax3000

Here is a webpage that breaks down soil and microfauna interaction into an easy read. Its a student wiki article, not a journal, but it seems to be fairly accurate.

Soil environment and physical factors controlling microbial activity - MicrobeWiki


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## Ed

Sorry I wasn't clear, I was tired when I typed it. 



flapjax3000 said:


> Does this mean that invertebrates pass on nutrients that have been broken down within their own system or it is in their system not yet digested while they are eaten by the frog?


Actually yes to both depending on the species in question.. for example isopods and snails consume calcium containing substrates due to the increased calcium requirements for deposition into thier respective cuticle or shell while annelids (as an example) contain undigested calcium particulates in thier digestive tract. If you look in the bibliography for the Nutritional chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery, there are some great references (One is a thesis I haven't been able to get ahold of yet) as well as some minor discussion in the text. 





flapjax3000 said:


> Sorry I am little confused. Are you saying the nutrient base will be used up and will have to be replaced, or the addition of nutrients will sustain it over time except for localized areas? I thought microfauna helps to redistribute and free up nutrients.


What I am saying that due to the lack of diversity in the microfauna in our enclosures, we may not see the same level of nutrient distribution or movement as is seen in the wild. This may mean that localized spots in the enclosure end up being nutrient deficient compared to other sections of the enclosure. This is probably going to take a long time to occur as clay based substrates are pretty robust.. so a person may want to take down a tank due to aesthetics as opposed to it actually becoming nutrient poor. Even if you do start to see signs of localized deficiency of nutrients top dressing the site should alleviate the issue. 

Does that help? 

Ed


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## Ed

flapjax3000 said:


> Here is a webpage that breaks down soil and microfauna interaction into an easy read. Its a student wiki article, not a journal, but it seems to be fairly accurate.
> 
> Soil environment and physical factors controlling microbial activity - MicrobeWiki


 
If you search long enough through google scholar.. you can access free journal articles on nutrient cycling of various types of leaf litters.. 
Or if you have access through as institutional subscription, a lot more articles are readily available. 
Ed


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## Pumilo

Ed, if you did decide that a top dressing was in order after a few years, would you put a small batch of new, complete clay mix over the top, or do you think that you could mix some Calcium Bentonite with a little Calcium Carbonate, both in their dry form. Sprinkle that over the top of your moist clay, and perhaps cut off the misting for a couple days to allow time for the Bentonite and calc. carb. to adhere to your old clay? I guess I'm thinking maybe 90 percent calcium bentonite and 10 percent calcium carbonite.


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## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Ed, if you did decide that a top dressing was in order after a few years, would you put a small batch of new, complete clay mix over the top, or do you think that you could mix some Calcium Bentonite with a little Calcium Carbonate, both in their dry form. Sprinkle that over the top of your moist clay, and perhaps cut off the misting for a couple days to allow time for the Bentonite and calc. carb. to adhere to your old clay? I guess I'm thinking maybe 90 percent calcium bentonite and 10 percent calcium carbonite.


I would probably simply just move where I was dumping feeders into the tank... 

Ed


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## flapjax3000

Thanks Ed, I didnt realize there was a Google journal search engine. I lost my J-Stor password access a few months back, and have been only been able to access abstracts lately.


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## flapjax3000

Pumilo said:


> Ed, if you did decide that a top dressing was in order after a few years, would you put a small batch of new, complete clay mix over the top, or do you think that you could mix some Calcium Bentonite with a little Calcium Carbonate, both in their dry form. Sprinkle that over the top of your moist clay, and perhaps cut off the misting for a couple days to allow time for the Bentonite and calc. carb. to adhere to your old clay? I guess I'm thinking maybe 90 percent calcium bentonite and 10 percent calcium carbonite.


When current leaf litter layer is almost decomposed I sprinkle a small amount of dried clay mixture on top of it before adding a fresh layer of leaves. This helps to ensure that clay will come into contact with the frogs. Also any microfauna that comes to the surface has to pass through this layer. A simple glass salt shaker is a great tool to use when adding the dried clay.


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## Ed

flapjax3000 said:


> Thanks Ed, I didnt realize there was a Google journal search engine. I lost my J-Stor password access a few months back, and have been only been able to access abstracts lately.


This is a problem I can well understand... 

Ed


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## Judy S

After all the technical information in the four pages...I have a really...really simple question: is the screen that you refer to what I call "hardware cloth" or is it screening material that would be used in a regular screen door..? This is a very informative thread, but I used Ed's method and it was very, very difficult to force the clay through those itsy-bitsy holes... thanks for your patience...


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## Pumilo

*HARDWARE CLOTH!* Yes, that's it! Thank you Judy! That was the name of the product I use. I just couldn't remember it. So what Judy and I mean here is the name of the wire mesh screen product that I force the clay through is *Hardware Cloth*. If there are different sizes, you need the 1/4" by 1/4" size.


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## Ed

Judy S said:


> After all the technical information in the four pages...I have a really...really simple question: is the screen that you refer to what I call "hardware cloth" or is it screening material that would be used in a regular screen door..? This is a very informative thread, but I used Ed's method and it was very, very difficult to force the clay through those itsy-bitsy holes... thanks for your patience...


 
No, as a cheat I use a screen lid for a 20 gallon aquarium with the larger screening holes.. not the finer one.... (although the finer screen would probably make a good surface dressing..hmm)... It isn't that hard to push it through the larger mesh size. 


Ed


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## flapjax3000

This tool does quite a good job as well. 

Potato Cuber


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## bbrock

patm said:


> Pumilio, just curious how the clay holds up over time. With heavy misting and high humidity, would it naturally clump and become impermiable over time? Also, how do you think the nutrient base would hold up over time? Would this have to be replaced over time, or do you think you could get several good years out of it?
> 
> Very informative, thanks for sharing.
> 
> Pat


Hi guys, interesting thread here. Nice work on the recipe Doug. I look forward to seeing how it holds up over time. Here's an update on the recipes I've used:

- Cheap non-clumping kitty litter - the first clay substrate I used. I have the original tanks set up in 1995 or 1996 still growing strong. The litter simply does not break down and plant growth remains healthy.

- DOB Redart mix (described in the other clay thread). How long has it been now - 4-5 years since I set that up? I have mixed results to report. The clay remains fairly stable but the sand-like aggregate structure has broken down over time. A coupld times of aerated it by poking holes clear through to the drainage layer to keep it draining well. I still like the look of it but there is room for improvement. I'm curious to see how these newer recipes hold up because they sound promising. Also, this mix does not support as much microfauna as kitty litter substrate. I'm pretty sure that is a function of the aggregate breakdown. There just isn't as much surface area between pore spaces. Again, stabilizing that sand-like structure is an important goal. Also, this stuff eats leaf litter rapidly. I actually think that is a good thing so just an observation. I suspect it has more to do with the night crawlers that were added hoping to maintain porosity than the clay itself.

Someone asked if it helps with pumilio. All I can say is that a combination of UVB lighting and calcium supplemented substrate seems to completely eliminate calcium deficiency issues in froglets. It has now been over 10 years since I've seen a case of hypocalcemia and I would guess something like 40 froglets have come out of that viv.

I haven't tested the pH of my substrate but I did test the effluent water that drains out after water has filtered through. One year after putting the substrate in, that pH was running about 8.6 so the substrate was pretty alkaline. I should test it again as I suspect it has dropped due to leaching. I also used slaked lime as the calcium source in mine which, as has been pointed out, is not the best choice since it is so reactive. But I haven't seen any issues and plants root and grow in the substrate just fine.

Overall I would say that early recipe was a step forward but not perfect. Maybe one of these new recipes will prove to be the ultimate clay-based substrate.


----------



## Pumilo

Hey Brent! Thanks for chiming in with an update on yours. This is obviously based heavily on your hard work (and Matt's). I couldn't have put this how to together without you guys being so willing to share your knowledge. Thank you and thanks for the kudos on my guide.

Can I ask about your kitty litter substrate? If that is the old fashioned, non clumping, fired litter, then how do you supplement that with calcium? Or is that not used with Pumilio as a calcium supplementing substrate?

Learning more about the possibilities of UVB lighting is something I want to research more, too. Got ant good threads you might be able to link me to about getting around the fact that glass tops apparently filter it out? My homemade slopefront glass vivs are kind of stumping me there.

Thanks again for adding your input here!


----------



## Pumilo

flapjax3000 said:


> This tool does quite a good job as well.
> 
> Potato Cuber


Hey Flapjax, what size cubes does that make?


----------



## flapjax3000

I found one at the local kitchen store that makes half inch squares. The steel is sturdy and it has handles on the side that help you push it down into the clay. 

The pictures that I posted are just for example, but I assume you can get them in varying sizes.


----------



## Ed

bbrock said:


> - DOB Redart mix (described in the other clay thread). How long has it been now - 4-5 years since I set that up? I have mixed results to report. The clay remains fairly stable but the sand-like aggregate structure has broken down over time. A coupld times of aerated it by poking holes clear through to the drainage layer to keep it draining well.


Hi Brent,

I have some variations on the clay mix and do not have drainage issue with the redart mixes I've tried. The water flows through pretty well even at high misting volumes (3 minutes/2 times a day for 6 months in ten gallon verticles). Under the same conditions with a microfauna population, I lost the ABG style mixes during the same period as they appeared to breakdown and disappear into the gravel layer (the effluent from this tank was full of small particulates and humic acids). 
One of the better mixes seems to be where I included a thin layer of clay mixed with organics ontop of the clay layer and included a mixture of cypress fines into that layer with the leaf litter. 

Here is a picture of that layer after one year (after I pulled the leaf litter aside... unfortunately the microfauna disappeared while I was getting the camera ready).


----------



## ChrisK

Pumilo said:


> Learning more about the possibilities of UVB lighting is something I want to research more, too. Got ant good threads you might be able to link me to about getting around the fact that glass tops apparently filter it out? My homemade slopefront glass vivs are kind of stumping me there.
> 
> Thanks again for adding your input here!


If I remember correctly, Brent uses a custom made Solacryl (the plastic material used in tanning beds for UVB transmission) top on the pumilio tank.

I'm playing around with using saran wrap on a screen top since Solacryl is expensive, hard to get and supposedly is supposed to be replaced after 2 years.


----------



## flapjax3000

All of my red art clay substrates drain extremely well and have been set up for about 18 months. There is a substantial portion of my mix that is organics (peat, coco fiber, tree fern) and turface. 

Do you find that tanks where you have used clay substrates tend to dry out a bit faster? Mine drain quite well, but water also seems to evaporate quicker. I have tanks side by side, one with clay/organic substrate and the other with just sphagnum. They both are the same shape with the exact same ventilation. I constantly have to drain the tank that has pure sphagnum and add water to the one that is clay.


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> If I remember correctly, Brent uses a custom made Solacryl (the plastic material used in tanning beds for UVB transmission) top on the pumilio tank.
> 
> I'm playing around with using saran wrap on a screen top since Solacryl is expensive, hard to get and supposedly is supposed to be replaced after 2 years.


You can also use starfire brand glass as it is also transparent to UVB.


----------



## ChrisK

bbrock said:


> - DOB Redart mix (described in the other clay thread). How long has it been now - 4-5 years since I set that up? I have mixed results to report. The clay remains fairly stable but the sand-like aggregate structure has broken down over time. A coupld times of aerated it by poking holes clear through to the drainage layer to keep it draining well. I still like the look of it but there is room for improvement. I'm curious to see how these newer recipes hold up because they sound promising. Also, this mix does not support as much microfauna as kitty litter substrate. I'm pretty sure that is a function of the aggregate breakdown. There just isn't as much surface area between pore spaces. Again, stabilizing that sand-like structure is an important goal. Also, this stuff eats leaf litter rapidly. I actually think that is a good thing so just an observation. I suspect it has more to do with the night crawlers that were added hoping to maintain porosity than the clay itself.


In one of my histrionicus tanks, I used only Matt's from scratch recipe on top of the drainage layer, the particle sizes were ranging from small rock to sand consistency, after lots of misting it pretty much congealed into large wet chunks of clay, this tank has been producing a crazy number of froglets though and supports lots of microfauna, but the walls of the tank are also a good refugium for the microfauna (curved virgin cork bark with sunstrate stuffed behind it etc) so it's hard to tell if it's the substrate supporting it, here's when it was first set up:











here's what it looks like now with a froglet on the clay so you can see how it congealed: 










Lately I started using a thick layer of Turface infield conditioner on top of the drainiage layer for a more stable particle layer (and also because Matt's recipe is such a pain to make  ), then a thin layer of Matt's recipe on top of the infield conditioner.


----------



## bbrock

Pumilo said:


> Hey Brent! Thanks for chiming in with an update on yours. This is obviously based heavily on your hard work (and Matt's). I couldn't have put this how to together without you guys being so willing to share your knowledge. Thank you and thanks for the kudos on my guide.
> 
> Can I ask about your kitty litter substrate? If that is the old fashioned, non clumping, fired litter, then how do you supplement that with calcium? Or is that not used with Pumilio as a calcium supplementing substrate?
> 
> Learning more about the possibilities of UVB lighting is something I want to research more, too. Got ant good threads you might be able to link me to about getting around the fact that glass tops apparently filter it out? My homemade slopefront glass vivs are kind of stumping me there.
> 
> Thanks again for adding your input here!


Hi Doug,

The kitty litter was the first substrate I experimented with and yes, it is the old fashioned fired stuff. I actually didn't supplement it with Ca as that was long before we realized there was a calcium issue with pumilio. I had that same substrate in my pumilio viv and did have issues with froglets (and even a couple adults) crashing with hypocalcemia. Adding UVB lighting and being deligent about calcium dusting completely eliminated those problems. I think the lesson here is that UVB may be more beneficial than calcium supplemented substrates for this particular issue. But what I think the enriched substrates do is provide a more steady and natural supply of calcium and reduces or eliminates the reliance on dusting food with Ca (but not other supplements). Getting back to kitty litter, I think you could probably supplement it with CaCO3 just as you do with other clay mixes. I'd mix them together dry and would guess that when the substrate is moistined, the CaCO3 would adsorb to the clay just fine.

As Chris said, I use solacryl tops on all my tanks or I just mount the UVB light bare bulb inside the viv. Either works well although the Solacryl obviously allows you to deal with excess heat more easily. As Ed mentioned, there are other UVB transparent options but the last time I priced starfire glass, it seemed about the price of gold. There is some misinformation out there about transparency of materials. There is an old site that claimed that thin (1/8") plexiglass allowed most UV light to go through. I tested a sample purchased at the local HD and found that transmission was 96%+ through the visible spectrum but rapidly dropped to 5% to 0% as soon as you crossed into UVA and beyond. Clearly there are UV stabilizing additives in at least some of the stuff sold at hardware stores. We also tested Solacryl and it maintained 96%+ transmission through the UVB wavelengths but filtered out all UVC light. The cool thing about that is that you could use Solacryl to filter unshielded halogen or other UV producing light sources to avoid the possiblity of exposure to dangerous UVC.

Of course with any UV lighting, you need to match the right bulb to the viv. I think there is some discussiong in that epic pumilio thread that happend a few years ago.


----------



## bbrock

ChrisK said:


> here's what it looks like now with a froglet on the clay so you can see how it congealed:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lately I started using a thick layer of Turface infield conditioner on top of the drainiage layer for a more stable particle layer (and also because Matt's recipe is such a pain to make  ), then a thin layer of Matt's recipe on top of the infield conditioner.


Chris,

That is pretty similar to what my aged redart mix looks like. Just to clarify, the mix still drains well without puddling of water on the surface. And I run the misters as much as 5X per day for a minute each. But that congealing you show is what I'm certain limits microfauna. With kitty litter you can look into the substrate profile and see a labyrinth of cracks and fissures that allow microfauna to live deep throughout the soil profile. When those fissures seal up, the area available for microfauna because limited mostly to between the surface and leaf litter. Imagine if you had a 1,000 gallon aquarium but fish only had access to the top 6" of water. That would seriously limit the number of fish the tank could support.


----------



## Pumilo

I looked into the UVB transmittance of glass. I cannot find any spec sheets from PPG about Starphire glass. PPG is the manufacturer. Borofloat is supposed to be clearer, and have more transmittance in th UV range than Starphire. Can't prove this as apparently PPG has not made specs available. Borofloat, however, drops uvb transmittance rather sharply with thickness. By the time you get up to DS, (1/8" or 3.3mm), the UVB transmittance drops clear down to only about 45 percent. It appears that much more testing has been done, or at least made available by the manufacturer, than with Starphire.


----------



## ChrisK

Pumilo said:


> I looked into the UVB transmittance of glass. I cannot find any spec sheets from PPG about Starphire glass. PPG is the manufacturer. Borofloat is supposed to be clearer, and have more transmittance in th UV range than Starphire. Can't prove this as apparently PPG has not made specs available. Borofloat, however, drops uvb transmittance rather sharply with thickness. By the time you get up to DS, (1/8" or 3.3mm), the UVB transmittance drops clear down to only about 45 percent. It appears that much more testing has been done, or at least made available by the manufacturer, than with Starphire.


That's all true, actually I corresponded with a Borofloat (and other low iron glass) distributor near me and they sent me some info on the UVB transmittance levels, I'll see if I can find it.


----------



## koolparrot

So here is my questions,
Do plants grow well in that soil, compacted or loose
Can you have multi types of springtails and isopods in one tank,
Could you add some peat or coco fiber to the loose clay mix?

Thanks 
Kp


----------



## ChrisK

koolparrot said:


> So here is my questions,
> Do plants grow well in that soil, compacted or loose
> Can you have multi types of springtails and isopods in one tank,
> Could you add some peat or coco fiber to the loose clay mix?
> 
> Thanks
> Kp


Some yes and some no, it definitely takes a while for them to take off,

Yes,

Yes but it's probably better to add it during mixing process


----------



## Pumilo

koolparrot said:


> So here is my questions,
> Do plants grow well in that soil, compacted or loose
> Can you have multi types of springtails and isopods in one tank,
> Could you add some peat or coco fiber to the loose clay mix?
> 
> Thanks
> Kp


I use a couple handfuls of ABG mix around the roots of each plant. I cover thi in a thin layer of clay mix. I think its helpful for the plants to get started. I put multiple types of springtails and isopods in every setup.


----------



## bbrock

koolparrot said:


> So here is my questions,
> Do plants grow well in that soil, compacted or loose
> Can you have multi types of springtails and isopods in one tank,
> Could you add some peat or coco fiber to the loose clay mix?
> 
> Thanks
> Kp


One note. If you use organic matter like peat or coco fiber to open up the structure of the clay to create more porosity, it will likely be a temporary solution since the OM will break down into humus and the open structure will collapse. That was one of the main reasons I started using mineral substrates to begin with because I wanted a substrate that would hold its structure indefinately. But a little OM in the mix is still a good thing for a number of reasons. But I would probably keep it to no more than 5% of the mix or so other than the thin layer of leaf litter on the surface.

Because we tend to keep frog vivaria wet (probably too wet), most of the old standards for viv plants that aren't epiphytes seem to be tolerant of constantly wet feet and grow just fine in the clay substrates. I tend to plant few plants in the substrate and instead plant the tank with epiphytes or lithophytes on branches and rocks. For terrestrials that need a more organic substrate, I do like Doug and just make a little planting pocket with the appropriate mix.


----------



## tim13

I have a question, after everything has been mixed and oven dried and split apart, can it then be stored away for later use in an air tight container? I want to make some of this but i won't be ready to use it for a few weeks. Just wanted to know if it would be okay to dry store it.


----------



## ChrisK

tim13 said:


> I have a question, after everything has been mixed and oven dried and split apart, can it then be stored away for later use in an air tight container? I want to make some of this but i won't be ready to use it for a few weeks. Just wanted to know if it would be okay to dry store it.


Yeah .


----------



## flapjax3000

tim13 said:


> I have a question, after everything has been mixed and oven dried and split apart, can it then be stored away for later use in an air tight container? I want to make some of this but i won't be ready to use it for a few weeks. Just wanted to know if it would be okay to dry store it.


I keep a pre-made wet mix on hand in a large tupperware. When I am close to making a tank I just put it out to air dry for a few days to help speed up the baking process. 

You can keep it in dry storage forever if you liked, the clay will not break down or need to be sterilized. You can always re-bake it if you are concerned.


----------



## Pumilo

You can store it dry for as long as you want. I would think that trying to store it wet would cause the pieces to clump together badly when you try to get it out and spread it in your new viv. The finished clay product should not be handled when wet or it will clump together.


----------



## ChrisK

bbrock said:


> Chris,
> 
> That is pretty similar to what my aged redart mix looks like. Just to clarify, the mix still drains well without puddling of water on the surface. And I run the misters as much as 5X per day for a minute each. But that congealing you show is what I'm certain limits microfauna. With kitty litter you can look into the substrate profile and see a labyrinth of cracks and fissures that allow microfauna to live deep throughout the soil profile. When those fissures seal up, the area available for microfauna because limited mostly to between the surface and leaf litter. Imagine if you had a 1,000 gallon aquarium but fish only had access to the top 6" of water. That would seriously limit the number of fish the tank could support.


Here's a side view from tonight of the tank I pictured (it's about 2" of clay on top, a thin layer of sphagnum under it, landscape fabric, then feather-lite drainage layer), the sand-like particles seem to have "melted" into the larger stone type particles, but those larger ones seem to have kept a nice amount of separation:


----------



## flapjax3000

Pumilo said:


> You can store it dry for as long as you want. I would think that trying to store it wet would cause the pieces to clump together badly when you try to get it out and spread it in your new viv. The finished clay product should not be handled when wet or it will clump together.



I just meant that I have a wet mix on hand. When I am ready I take out what I need, air dry it, press it through the screen and then bake it.


----------



## tim13

I have searched all over, including ebay and craft stores, and no one carries "RedArt" clay. Is there a different name for it i don't know about?


----------



## Okapi

This is where I ordered mine:
Redart Clay - Clay, Kilns, Pottery Wheels, Slab Rollers


----------



## Pumilo

flapjax3000 said:


> I just meant that I have a wet mix on hand. When I am ready I take out what I need, air dry it, press it through the screen and then bake it.


That should work fine for some mixes, although I think with my mix you may have mold problems if you store it wet. The reason would be the cornstarch and sugar in the mix. They are there to encourage a biofilm to help in keeping the clay intact. Eventually, the mold would pass, but then the cornstarch and sugar may be rendered inert.



tim13 said:


> I have searched all over, including ebay and craft stores, and no one carries "RedArt" clay. Is there a different name for it i don't know about?


The supplier I listed earlier, Mile Hi Ceramics - Ceramic supplies, Pottery supplies , Ships all over the states. I did not see it listed on their website, but I know they have it. You may just have to email or call them.



Okapi said:


> This is where I ordered mine:
> Redart Clay - Clay, Kilns, Pottery Wheels, Slab Rollers


Thanks Okapi, multiple sources are great to have. Anybody else with a good clay source is welcome to throw it up here.


----------



## Okapi

Here are the others I have found:
Red Clay - Red Art
Ceramic Supply Inc
Bailey Ceramic Supplies


----------



## tim13

Pumilo, your idea for pushing the clay through a screen was good, I'll give you that. BUT, this is faster!

Amazon.com: Play-Doh: Fun Factory Deluxe Set: Toys & Games


See that doohickey with the red handle in the center of the box? Yea, that will push clay our in about the same size lines as your screen. Then, just take a straight edge and "chop chop chop" like your cutting vegetables. BAM, you're done.

Disclaimer: May contain choking hazards.


----------



## bristles

Clay is very important for cation (pronounced cat-ion) exchange which allows plants to absorb nutrients. I always have clay in my planted aquarium substrate so the plants do not become nutrient bond


----------



## bristles

Here is a helpful link Cation Exchange Capacity in Soils, Simplified


----------



## GRIMM

Awesome DIY Pumilo! Really helped me out for my next tank. I’m currently finished mixing my batch and I'm about to start the baking process. A few questions first though.

I’m interested in prolonging the life of the clay the best I can, while still maintaining all the positive effects of using this method. You baked your clay at 300 degrees, but have you or anyone else ever tried baking it at higher temperatures?

Here is a clay firing temperature chart...

212° F -Water boils.
212 to 392° F - Clays loses water.
392° F - Typical kitchen oven baking temperature.
705° F - Chemically combined water leaves clay.
932° F - Red glow in kiln.
1063° F -Quartz inversion
1472° F - Organic matter in clay burns out.
1472 to 1832° F - Low fire earthenwares and lowfire lead glazes mature. 
Normal firing temperature for red bricks and terra cotta pots.

***as an additional note, most home ovens will reach 700-900 degrees during the self clean cycle***

By looking at the chart I can only assume that at 705 degrees, clay has reached the point where it becomes much more stable and solid, due to chemically combined water leaving the clay. Just to be safe, I checked the temperature at which calcium carbonate will dissociate. It forms calcium oxide at 825 degrees. However even if this temperature is exceeded, all that is needed to reverse the process is some good ol' H2O. I’m unsure of how the rest of the ingredients will act, but the main benefits of this method are calcium absorption and surface area for micro fauna growth.

Anybody have thoughts on this, or has anyone already tried baking at cleaning cycle temperatures? Good, bad, ugly? I’m curious as to if this could help extend the life of the clay.


----------



## stevenhman

Thanks for the simple recipe. I _was_ going to make the more complicated version (Matt's), but I wasn't able to find everything locally. 

I didn't press it through a screen and then bake it, although after seeing ChrisK's pictures I might just end up doing that. I baked it, then just broke the clay into chunks (1in sq & smaller).


----------



## Pumilo

GRIMM said:


> Awesome DIY Pumilo! Really helped me out for my next tank. I’m currently finished mixing my batch and I'm about to start the baking process. A few questions first though.
> 
> I’m interested in prolonging the life of the clay the best I can, while still maintaining all the positive effects of using this method. You baked your clay at 300 degrees, but have you or anyone else ever tried baking it at higher temperatures?
> 
> Here is a clay firing temperature chart...
> 
> 212° F -Water boils.
> 212 to 392° F - Clays loses water.
> 392° F - Typical kitchen oven baking temperature.
> 705° F - Chemically combined water leaves clay.
> 932° F - Red glow in kiln.
> 1063° F -Quartz inversion
> 1472° F - Organic matter in clay burns out.
> 1472 to 1832° F - Low fire earthenwares and lowfire lead glazes mature.
> Normal firing temperature for red bricks and terra cotta pots.
> 
> ***as an additional note, most home ovens will reach 700-900 degrees during the self clean cycle***
> 
> By looking at the chart I can only assume that at 705 degrees, clay has reached the point where it becomes much more stable and solid, due to chemically combined water leaving the clay. Just to be safe, I checked the temperature at which calcium carbonate will dissociate. It forms calcium oxide at 825 degrees. However even if this temperature is exceeded, all that is needed to reverse the process is some good ol' H2O. I’m unsure of how the rest of the ingredients will act, but the main benefits of this method are calcium absorption and surface area for micro fauna growth.
> 
> Anybody have thoughts on this, or has anyone already tried baking at cleaning cycle temperatures? Good, bad, ugly? I’m curious as to if this could help extend the life of the clay.


Thanks Grimm, I'm afraid I'm in the dark about trying higher temps. I baked it simply to speed the drying. I would be concerned that firing it too high (and too hard), could lock the calcium up into the hardened clay pellets so that the frogs were unable to digest tiny bits of it.



stevenhman said:


> Thanks for the simple recipe. I _was_ going to make the more complicated version (Matt's), but I wasn't able to find everything locally.
> 
> I didn't press it through a screen and then bake it, although after seeing ChrisK's pictures I might just end up doing that. I baked it, then just broke the clay into chunks (1in sq & smaller).


Hey Steven, in a PM from Matt, he told me he has gone back to locally collected clay which he amends with minerals and calcium. He did not state details why.
Obviously, I don't know the longevity of the clay structure, but I tried both crumbling, and screening, and I really love the particle size of running through the 1/4" screen. It just seems to have so many nice sized cracks and crevasses. I know my isopods and springtails are loving crawling through it! I found that with crumbling, many of the smaller bits, fell into and plugged up much of the open structure that the bigger pieces were creating.


----------



## davecalk

bristles said:


> Clay is very important for cation (pronounced cat-ion) exchange which allows plants to absorb nutrients. I always have clay in my planted aquarium substrate so the plants do not become nutrient bond


Hi all,

Great thread. Just saw it and have been reading through it. 

To make different sized chunks, you can get different sized hardware cloth, also know as welded wire mesh. 

Hardware Cloth


The sizes that might be relevant to us are 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch square openings. 





















You can get them at big box places like Home Depot and Lowes in as small as 10 foot rolls. You may also be able to get smaller amounts from farm and garden stores like Costal, farmers coops, etc. They sell them for building cages for various animals.


The other tool that would be very helpful in making various size pieces easily would be to use a grout float.











You can purchase cheap ones from Home Depot for about $3.00. It would make it very easy to push the clay chunks through the hardware fabric saving a lot of ware and tare on your hands and fingers. The amount of pressure that you push on the clay will allow you to vary the size of the particles coming out the back side.


----------



## Pumilo

davecalk said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Great thread. Just saw it and have been reading through it.
> 
> To make different sized chunks, you can get different sized hardware cloth, also know as welded wire mesh.
> 
> Hardware Cloth
> 
> 
> The sizes that might be relevant to us are 1/8 inch, 1/4 inch and 1/2 inch square openings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can get them at big box places like Home Depot and Lowes in as small as 10 foot rolls. You may also be able to get smaller amounts from farm and garden stores like Costal, farmers coops, etc. They sell them for building cages for various animals.
> 
> 
> The other tool that would be very helpful in making various size pieces easily would be to use a grout float.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can purchase cheap ones from Home Depot for about $3.00. It would make it very easy to push the clay chunks through the hardware fabric saving a lot of ware and tare on your hands and fingers. The amount of pressure that you push on the clay will allow you to vary the size of the particles coming out the back side.


Thanks Dave, that hardware cloth is the stuff I use to mold the clay into proper sized pieces. Ed originally recommended using the 1/4 inch size and I totally agree that the 1/4 inch makes for a very "microfauna friendly" size. 
The link to the groat float is not working. Can you try again on that please? I would like to see it.


----------



## Scott

Doug - I've got about 5 tanks full of this clay substrate (with turface underneath) at this point.

I've got frogs residing in one of them, and a boatload of frogs due in this week. 

Thank you for the thread - it was very helpful.

For the record - I've just been using the Tucson sun to bake the clay. Does the trick in 48 hours or less, and it's not even summer yet. 

s


----------



## Pumilo

Sweet Scott! Glad I'm able to pass on some of the help that people here have given to me! It's just getting warm enough here in Colorado to try some sun drying. My wife will be glad to get my "mud" out of the kitchen!


----------



## slipperheads

Hi Doug,

Was wondering how large an area your recipe covers? Looking into possibly whipping up a clay substrate for a big ole' display tank construction over the summer, and this looks like a much more longer-lasting alternative over ABG.


----------



## tim13

§lipperhead said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Was wondering how large an area your recipe covers? Looking into possibly whipping up a clay substrate for a big ole' display tank construction over the summer, and this looks like a much more longer-lasting alternative over ABG.


It covers quite a bit actually, I doubled the recipe, and was able to do about 3/4 of an inch of clay in a 29 gallon tank.


----------



## Pumilo

§lipperhead said:


> Hi Doug,
> 
> Was wondering how large an area your recipe covers? Looking into possibly whipping up a clay substrate for a big ole' display tank construction over the summer, and this looks like a much more longer-lasting alternative over ABG.


It's so dependant upon how thick a layer you want. I think out of a double batch, I did a 24" x 24" bottom and a 12" x 24" bottom nice and thick. Like 1" at the thinnest with other areas pushing more than 2".


----------



## slipperheads

Great, that's a perfect point of reference. So with the 2" of clay over the turface, that's only about maybe 3" - this will be enough for plants?


----------



## Ed

§lipperhead said:


> Great, that's a perfect point of reference. So with the 2" of clay over the turface, that's only about maybe 3" - this will be enough for plants?


two inches is more than sufficient. I have tanks where much less is used with no problems with plant growth. 
You just have to make sure the clay can drain throughly. I use an air gap under the false bottom to allow the clay to drain throughly.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> two inches is more than sufficient. I have tanks where much less is used with no problems with plant growth.
> You just have to make sure the clay can drain throughly. I use an air gap under the false bottom to allow the clay to drain throughly.


This air gap is a must have. Your clay will only stand up to the test of time with a false bottom to get the air gap. If it is constantly really wet, it will quickly break down.
So you want an eggcrate false bottom with the air gap. A layer of fiberglass window screen over this. The next part is optional and that would be a layer of Turface (infield conditioner) about an inch thick. I do this for extra root growth and so that I can get away with a little less homemade clay. It makes the batch stretch a little further. Now put your layer of homemade clay substrate on top of the Turface. I do NOT put screen between the Turface and the clay substrate.
I do not use weedblocker instead of window screen. I don't understand why people wish to limit the root growth of your plants. Let your roots go where they will. If they go down into the water at the bottom, fine! It will freshen the water and fertilize the plants. Besides, have you ever tried to run water through a piece of window screen material? It runs right through it! Very well drained. Try that with a piece of weedblocker. You will be amazed at how poorly the water runs through. Very poorly draining material.
I have done tanks with one inch of Turface and one inch of clay and they are doing great. Sounds like Ed has experimented with even less with good results.


----------



## slipperheads

Ed said:


> two inches is more than sufficient. I have tanks where much less is used with no problems with plant growth.
> You just have to make sure the clay can drain throughly. I use an air gap under the false bottom to allow the clay to drain throughly.


Excellent - a drilled hole just below the height of the egg crate will work perfectly for that. Thanks Doug and Ed.


----------



## Ed

§lipperhead said:


> Excellent - a drilled hole just below the height of the egg crate will work perfectly for that. Thanks Doug and Ed.


That is exactly what I do. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

§lipperhead said:


> Excellent - a drilled hole just below the height of the egg crate will work perfectly for that. Thanks Doug and Ed.





Ed said:


> That is exactly what I do.
> 
> Ed


Me too. A 5/8 inch hole with a short piece of clear flexible 5/8 o.d. hose through it, silicone it in place inside and out. I don't even bother with a bulkhead and I've never had a leak.


----------



## GRIMM

I posed questions a few pages back regarding firing temps vs clay longevity, but never got an answer. Figured it would be best to do some experiments of my own. 

Air dry and 300f - Very quick breakdown and became soft/mushy within 1 minute of being submerged

415f - Same sh*tty stats as above

~800-900f (3 hour oven self cleaning cycle) - It held its shape much better then previous temps. When submerged in water, it will degrade and become soft, but it happens slower then before. This mean that if a heavy tank misting/rain cycle is on, it will be able to withstand this much better, so long as it has proper drainage after the fact. I wouldn't use it near a water feature though, unless you want a large clay clump down the road. Try keeping it in dry sections of the tank, as with all clay substrate.

1800f (typical kiln firing temp) - Clay turned into a ceramic, and after 3 weeks has not broken down at all. This would be good as a substrate additive for high drainage, but I doubt it will ever break down. This pretty much removes all the calcium benefits from making clay substrate, and you end up with expensive rocks haha

Ideally, Im guessing firing at 1000-1200f would be the best option, however it is difficult to fire something in this temperature range while being cost effective. Home ovens will not reach it, and to get a kiln fired at a specific temp costs 50-65$. Im happy with the results using the self cleaning oven cycle though. It definitely beats air drying it, or low oven temps.


----------



## Pumilo

GRIMM said:


> I posed questions a few pages back regarding firing temps vs clay longevity, but never got an answer. Figured it would be best to do some experiments of my own.
> 
> Air dry and 300f - Very quick breakdown and became soft/mushy within 1 minute of being submerged
> 
> 415f - Same sh*tty stats as above
> 
> ~800-900f (3 hour oven self cleaning cycle) - It held its shape much better then previous temps. When submerged in water, it will degrade and become soft, but it happens slower then before. This mean that if a heavy tank misting/rain cycle is on, it will be able to withstand this much better, so long as it has proper drainage after the fact. I wouldn't use it near a water feature though, unless you want a large clay clump down the road. Try keeping it in dry sections of the tank, as with all clay substrate.
> 
> 1800f (typical kiln firing temp) - Clay turned into a ceramic, and after 3 weeks has not broken down at all. This would be good as a substrate additive for high drainage, but I doubt it will ever break down. This pretty much removes all the calcium benefits from making clay substrate, and you end up with expensive rocks haha
> 
> Ideally, Im guessing firing at 1000-1200f would be the best option, however it is difficult to fire something in this temperature range while being cost effective. Home ovens will not reach it, and to get a kiln fired at a specific temp costs 50-65$. Im happy with the results using the self cleaning oven cycle though. It definitely beats air drying it, or low oven temps.





Pumilo said:


> Thanks Grimm, I'm afraid I'm in the dark about trying higher temps. I baked it simply to speed the drying. I would be concerned that firing it too high (and too hard), could lock the calcium up into the hardened clay pellets so that the frogs were unable to digest tiny bits of it.


Actually Grimm, I did post my opinion on firing the clay. I think you are changing it to something you don't find in nature. We are trying to recreate the rainforest clay with this type of substrate. I think that any degree of hardening will make it much less digestible. I'm sure it will still work fine to grow stuff in, but more like a LECA without the calcium benefits. The way we use it now, it is soft enough that bits of it come off and get stuck to the bugs as they crawl through it. Your frogs benefit from that when they eat the bugs. It is soft enough that as the frogs sit on it, some of the calcium can be absorbed right through the frogs skin. I would just be worried that any hardening would cancel these benefits.


----------



## GRIMM

It definitely breaks down when fired at 900f, just not in 1-2 minutes. If you have any extra lying around, toss it in a clean cycle and check it out. Im sure your oven needs it's yearly cleaning anyways, and the wife might appreciate it  

I had a private convo with Matt Mirabello and at the time he was also trying to find the perfect firing medium between longevity and benefits. Im not sure what temps he came up with, but I wouldnt be surprised if it comes in around 1000f. Ideally it would be perfect to have the clay break down over a few years. I could see that happening as long as my clay is kept on the drier side.


----------



## Ed

Why not just use turface then? It is low fired and decomposes slowly over a period of about 20 years. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

GRIMM said:


> It definitely breaks down when fired at 900f, just not in 1-2 minutes.


Granted, my clay substrates are only a few months old, but they show no signs of collapsing. They have certainly lasted longer than 1 to 2 minutes. If you made my recipe and it's only lasting 1 to 2 minutes before breaking down, then you are doing something very different than what I've posted.



Ed said:


> Why not just use turface then? It is low fired and decomposes slowly over a period of about 20 years.
> 
> Ed


Agreed.


----------



## slipperheads

Just to save people some time, here is where you find the closest Turface dealer to you:

Distributors | Turface Athletics


----------



## GRIMM

Alright sorry for adding my experiences with it. As I said before twice, it breaks down, just not as fast. I can take pictures if you like. A slimy film forms over it when submerged, but it doesnt become a sloppy mess right away. And I am testing it in the worst possible scenario, when submerged. Not slightly damp as it would when be used as substrate.


----------



## Ed

Don't apologize, there isn't any need. I was just trying to figure out if low firing some clay is going to be be better than turface since that is an already low fired clay.


----------



## GRIMM

Cool. I'll definitely try and post some pictures of how it acts when moist. The peat no boubt gets burnt off durig the firing process, but the main benefits should all still be there. Just with a little added longevity. 

I might just run another test using the 900 degree clay in a clear glass. 1" of water, rocks as the main drainage layer, clay above that and perhaps a few leaves on the surface. I'll mist it daily and keep it covered with saran wrap. Hopefully this will mimic the environment the clay will be in and see how well it acts. I still have a few weeks till I'll be using the substrate in a tank anyways. Cant hurt to try.

I'd like to see the results from Matt's different firing temps and if the clay still retains all it's positive properties. He hasnt posted in a while.


----------



## Ed

One of these days I'll take a picture of some unfired clay that is still holding holes etc down into the substrate. It went two years with a 4 minute misting 4 times a day with a mistking set up,.. I have for the last year only rub the misting for 15 seconds/twice a day. 

Ed


----------



## davecalk

Pumilo said:


> Thanks Dave, that hardware cloth is the stuff I use to mold the clay into proper sized pieces. Ed originally recommended using the 1/4 inch size and I totally agree that the 1/4 inch makes for a very "microfauna friendly" size.
> The link to the groat float is not working. Can you try again on that please? I would like to see it.


Sorry I missed the question about the grout float. 
We'll see if this reference sticks around.

The following is a google search of "Grout Float".

Google Search for Images of Grout Floats


Grout Floats have a handle and a rubber bottom and are designed to push thick, heavy concrete grout deep into thin, tiny voids or lines which are found between newly installed tile. These grout lines can be as narrow as 1/16 of an inch, but are most common at 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch. This is really the same kind of thing we are doing here as we push thick, heavy clay through the 1/4 inch holes in the hardware cloth.


----------



## Pumilo

Nice Dave. Thanks. That looks like the proper tool for what my little rubber sanding block is being used for.


----------



## arielelf

Would there be any problem in laying down the clay substrate over a couple inches of ABG mix? I would assume I would need at least an inch or 2 of the clay over it.


----------



## Pumilo

arielelf said:


> Would there be any problem in laying down the clay substrate over a couple inches of ABG mix? I would assume I would need at least an inch or 2 of the clay over it.


That would probably be fine. Both myself and Brett Brock have used pockets of ABG mix around the roots. It gives them a bit of a head start but is not necessary.


----------



## morphman

Thanks Pumilo for this very informative thread. It is solid information like this that gives us amateurs the courage to try out new things. Thank you Pumilo and all contributors. I am working on a tank and it seems to take forever to make up my mind on what to do or use. 
Substrate is one of those....... things. 
While I have no doubt about the benefits of your mix to me it seems labor intensive and I was wondering if there is a SIMPLE way to possibly incorporate the calcium and other mineral requirements into LECA or Hydrton. If I were to make a liquid with all that and rolled or coated the hydrtons in it and then baked or dried it..... ?? I'm also guessing that the round shape of the Hydrotons would allow for more gaps , "microfauna real estate". 

I am aware that there might be something simple I'm missing here that would totally ridicule my suggestion and I'm hoping some feedback will enlighten me.

Thank you.


----------



## Ed

Leca/Hydroton are fully fired clays. There are no small particulates that are going to be sticking to the microfauna or ingested by the microfauna that will have mobile calcium. In addition Leca/hydroton are full fired clays so thier ability to retain and release cations like calcium are not the same as a clay substrate. 

It may seem like a lot of work but it actually isn't when you look at the lifespan of the an enclosure. There are substrates like this that have been running for more than ten years now. 

Ed


----------



## morphman

Ed said:


> Leca/Hydroton are fully fired clays. There are no small particulates that are going to be sticking to the microfauna or ingested by the microfauna that will have mobile calcium. In addition Leca/hydroton are full fired clays so thier ability to retain and release cations like calcium are not the same as a clay substrate.
> 
> It may seem like a lot of work but it actually isn't when you look at the lifespan of the an enclosure. There are substrates like this that have been running for more than ten years now.
> 
> Ed


 Thank you Ed,

It was 6 AM and I had been up all night reading about substrate options so there is a possibility I was delerious when I got the idea. I've had less than 4 hrs of sleep and I'm ready to go again .
I thought I could just make a slurry containing the calcium and other needed minerals and then coat the Hydrotons with that mix. I'm hoping this coat will break down into smaller particles that can benefit the animals via ingestion or absorbtion. Like a candy coated apple or something only here the apple 

Laziness.......... makes you do things lol.. I already bought a 50 l bag of hydroton.

Apart from the cation thing I thought maybe the round shape and less weight might be an advantage. Here I was thinking I discovered something 

Either way I've read enough good things about clay substrates to tell you that I will be using one way or another.
Thank you all again.


----------



## Pumilo

morphman said:


> Thank you Pumilo and all contributors.


Thank you for acknowledging the hard work that others have put into this. Much of what I did here was simply gathering the most pertinent info in all the clay threads, gathering it into one place. There is still some great info in the Ultimate clay thread, too. 



morphman said:


> While I have no doubt about the benefits of your mix to me it seems labor intensive and I was wondering if there is a SIMPLE way to possibly incorporate the calcium and other mineral requirements into LECA or Hydrton. If I were to make a liquid with all that and rolled or coated the hydrtons in it and then baked or dried it..... ?? I'm also guessing that the round shape of the Hydrotons would allow for more gaps , "microfauna real estate".


What Ed said. If you really wanted to try it, I think the proper way would be to mix up the whole recipe, thin it out into a much wetter slurry, and repeatedly dip and dry your LECA balls. As far as gaps and real estate, this is why we borrow Ed's suggestion of pressing it through the 1/4" screen made of hardware cloth. The 1/4" pieces allow lots of gaps.



morphman said:


> I am aware that there might be something simple I'm missing here that would totally ridicule my suggestion and I'm hoping some feedback will enlighten me.


Very few questions are worthy of ridicule. These are the types of questions that allowed clay substrates to be "born".

Thank you.[/QUOTE]



Ed said:


> Leca/Hydroton are fully fired clays. There are no small particulates that are going to be sticking to the microfauna or ingested by the microfauna that will have mobile calcium. In addition Leca/hydroton are full fired clays so thier ability to retain and release cations like calcium are not the same as a clay substrate.
> 
> It may seem like a lot of work but it actually isn't when you look at the lifespan of the an enclosure. There are substrates like this that have been running for more than ten years now.
> 
> Ed


Hey Ed, Regarding Leca, Calcium mobility, and ability to retain and release cations. We discussed this once regarding Turface and it's calcium mobility, and ability to retain and release cation. You had said that Turface may still have some of these abilities. I had thought that Turface was fully fired also. Is Turface perhaps, only partially fired?


----------



## Ed

Tuface is fired at a low temperature which allows it to degrade over time (we are talking on the scale of decades..). This liberates small particulates that can be ingested. 

At this point, the last several tanks I set up have relatively thin layers of clay over turface. The clay depth is between 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch thick over about 1/2 of turface. This produces very light tanks once you drain the water and seems to satisfy the needs of the microfauna (and plants can root through the clay right into the turface and water area. 

Ed


----------



## skylsdale

arielelf said:


> Would there be any problem in laying down the clay substrate over a couple inches of ABG mix? I would assume I would need at least an inch or 2 of the clay over it.


This sort of defeats one of the primary purposes of a clay-based, primarily non-organic substrate. Eventually the ABG mix under the clay will break down, decompose and become pretty rank...then you'll have to tear everything out and rebuild at some point. Using all clay helps eliminate that need...unless 30-40 years from now my Turface substrate breaks down to the point of being no good, and then I can swap it out for fresh. 

ABG mix was designed to grow great plants. The clay-based soils some of us have been experimenting with over the last few years are an attempt to understand and hopefully mimic more accurately the actual environments and ecological processes taking place in the tropics where Dendrobatids come from. That, for me, is the primary emphasis and concern, and I cater the plants I use to ones that will work well in that context/substrate. Trying to mix the two 50/50, I think, misses some of the major purposes of this method.


----------



## arielelf

Thank so much for posting this, I used this recipe to make my own. I bought a play-dough fun factory clay press and made my own die out of brass to create a shape that I hope ill provide some sturdiness and also lots of nooks and crannies for isopods and springtails to crawl all over.
It worked fairly well, but it would have worked much better with a finer peat and finer grain sand, larger chunks of it tended to clog the die quite often. Next time I will use finer stuff.
After squeezing these clay shapes out I would let them dry a little them use a knife to cut them into smaller pieces.


----------



## Mitch

I know this is off topic, but is anyone selling a pre-made clay substrate yet? I'm pretty lazy and don't want to make my own


----------



## Pumilo

Mitch said:


> I know this is off topic, but is anyone selling a pre-made clay substrate yet? I'm pretty lazy and don't want to make my own


I don't believe so Mitch. I have discussed trades with a couple of people but the work involved would make it pricey. To top that off, it's expensive to ship, even though you would ship it dry. Still, for the right trade (thumbs or eggfeeders), I would consider it.


----------



## stevenhman

Mitch, it really isn't that bad to make. I can be kind of lazy as well. I just mixed up everything in a bucket, spread it out on a sheet of plastic, let it dry in the sun (and some in the oven), then broke it up into chunks.

The substrate has only been in the tank for a little over a month now but, it seems to be holding up fine. I think that having a nice layer of leaf litter over the clay helps save it from misting.


----------



## Mitch

Pumilo said:


> I don't believe so Mitch. I have discussed trades with a couple of people but the work involved would make it pricey. To top that off, it's expensive to ship, even though you would ship it dry. Still, for the right trade (thumbs or eggfeeders), I would consider it.


Eh, seems kinda unfair to trade frogs for a bag of clay. Haha 



stevenhman said:


> Mitch, it really isn't that bad to make. I can be kind of lazy as well. I just mixed up everything in a bucket, spread it out on a sheet of plastic, let it dry in the sun (and some in the oven), then broke it up into chunks.
> 
> The substrate has only been in the tank for a little over a month now but, it seems to be holding up fine. I think that having a nice layer of leaf litter over the clay helps save it from misting.


Trust me, I'm lazier than you!  This is the theme song to my life (not to hijack the thread): 




Anyways, how long has it taken you guys to make the stuff? It seems like it could end up taking a few hours per batch.


----------



## Pumilo

Mitch said:


> Eh, seems kinda unfair to trade frogs for a bag of clay. Haha
> 
> 
> 
> Trust me, I'm lazier than you!  This is the theme song to my life (not to hijack the thread): LINK
> 
> Anyways, how long has it taken you guys to make the stuff? It seems like it could end up taking a few hours per batch.


Guess that's pretty much my point. Nobody's going to make you a batch for $10. It's pretty much do it yourself, or live without it. Thus, the do it yourself guide!


----------



## Mitch

Pumilo said:


> Guess that's pretty much my point. Nobody's going to make you a batch for $10. It's pretty much do it yourself, or live without it. Thus, the do it yourself guide!


Yup! Great guide by the way. When I set up my final masterpiece viv (still in the planning stage) I'll definitely consider using a clay based substrate. This guide makes it much easier/more understandable as to how to do it. When people talked about it before I had no clue what they were doing to make the stuff until you made this thread. This should be stickied!


----------



## gold3nku5h

Would you ever fire the clay to make a similar product to hydroton or LECA?


----------



## Pumilo

Mitch said:


> Yup! Great guide by the way. When I set up my final masterpiece viv (still in the planning stage) I'll definitely consider using a clay based substrate. This guide makes it much easier/more understandable as to how to do it. When people talked about it before I had no clue what they were doing to make the stuff until you made this thread. This should be stickied!


Thanks Mitch.



gold3nku5h said:


> Would you ever fire the clay to make a similar product to hydroton or LECA?


You might talk to Grimm about that. He was going to experiment with partial firing. Personally, I would be afraid that any firing would tend to "fix" the calcium into the clay so it would not be available to the frogs. Besides, some of the early clay mixes have been up and running for 10 years now so I don't see why it would be necessary or beneficial.


----------



## gold3nku5h

well i was thinking that with constant moisture that you couldnt stop it from compacting.


----------



## Ed

If you follow the recipes, then microbes and microfauna action will keep the clay from compacting. 

Ed


----------



## flapjax3000

I never have had compaction issues, unless you physically mash down the mixture. Even with water from misters the clay holds its shape quite well.


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> If you follow the recipes, then microbes and microfauna action will keep the clay from compacting.
> 
> Ed





flapjax3000 said:


> I never have had compaction issues, unless you physically mash down the mixture. Even with water from misters the clay holds its shape quite well.


All you have to watch out for is that you don't go digging around in it. Set your plants in while it is still dry. If you need to add plants later, just push cuttings in, or, lay the root mass on top and cover with leaf litter. It'll root in quick enough.


----------



## Armson

So I am in the planning stages for my first vivs and this thread has been a great read I think the "ultimate clay thread" has gotten a little out of hand(long). 

So here are a few questions for the people that are running clay substrates so far. 

What types of plants thrive in the clay substrate and which plants do poorly? 
Does anybody have pictures of their vivs that have been set up for awhile with clay substrates? I am particular interested in seeing how some of the older systems are still holding up? 

By the way, a big thanks to all those who are taking the time to answer questions for us newbies and making sure we get started on the right track. 


-Byron


----------



## skylsdale

This is a 20 gal using a locally collected clay/silt based soil, set up for 2+ years at this point:










And here is a 30 gal tank using Turface as a substrate that has been set up for 3+ years:



















Some of the plants are grown in the substrate, but many of the species I use are also epiphytic--I think of the other hardscape pieces (roots, woody debris, etc.) as substrate more than the actual clay-based soil. For that I prefer to have predominantly leaf litter. But, as you can see, even areas of bare substrate are minimal in these tanks so I have to occasionally do some pretty heavy pruning.


----------



## Bonobo

Any big differences in what source of calcium? The one I used lists calcium gluconate and calcium lactate, it also has cholecalciferol(Vitamin D) in it..

What ya think?


Hmm.. after doing some research, I would say carbonite is the way to go, it's listed as the most concentrated form of calcium.


----------



## Pumilo

Bonobo said:


> Any big differences in what source of calcium? The one I used lists calcium gluconate and calcium lactate, it also has cholecalciferol(Vitamin D) in it..
> 
> What ya think?
> 
> 
> Hmm.. after doing some research, I would say carbonite is the way to go.. it's listed as having the highest amounts of useable calcium..


Yes, calcium carbonite.


----------



## Bonobo

You think I would be okay if I added more to recipe? Or should I just get rid of this batch? and redo one using calcium carbonate? 

It does say calcium lactate and gluconate are absorbed easier.


----------



## Paul G

So reading back at the posts from Brent....would kitty litter make a fine substrate by itself? Anyone try that other than Brent?
(I'm not talking about raising thumbs or egg feeders in these tanks)


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Yes, calcium carbonite.


Carbonite? Have you guys started coal mining or have you been watching too much Star Wars? (see Carbonite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)  

Carbonate..... I think is what you mean...  

Ed


----------



## Ed

Paul G said:


> So reading back at the posts from Brent....would kitty litter make a fine substrate by itself? Anyone try that other than Brent?
> (I'm not talking about raising thumbs or egg feeders in these tanks)


 
There have been a number of people with success using it as a substrate. All of the issues around it were mainly due to issues with backgrounds. As a substrate it works well as long as it is well drained. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Carbonite? Have you guys started coal mining or have you been watching too much Star Wars? (see Carbonite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
> 
> Carbonate..... I think is what you mean...
> 
> Ed


Sorry Ed, I though we were referring to freezing the frogs in Carbonite, to preserve the line for future use.  I wonder if it would also produce a frog capable of doing the Kessel spice run in under 12 parsecs?


----------



## Golden State Mantellas

Pumilo said:


> Sorry Ed, I though we were referring to freezing the frogs in Carbonite, to preserve the line for future use.  I wonder if it would also produce a frog capable of doing the Kessel spice run in under 12 parsecs?


Oh the visuals of a frog room wall covered in miniature carbonite encased frog trophies, whilst the proud owner sits in the corner bellowing maniacally and speaking in tongues.

derail over.


----------



## tclipse

Pumilo said:


> Sorry Ed, I though we were referring to freezing the frogs in Carbonite, to preserve the line for future use.  I wonder if it would also produce a frog capable of doing the Kessel spice run in under 12 parsecs?


Not sure, but I just sent a solarte out to the Tosche station to pick up some power converters


----------



## Neontra

What's the difference from this and ABG? Couldn't you just use hydroton instead of making your own clay subsrate? Thanks


----------



## Pumilo

Neontra said:


> What's the difference from this and ABG? Couldn't you just use hydroton instead of making your own clay subsrate? Thanks


ABG mix, while I do love it as a simple, workable, substrate, is basically a very well-drained, dirt for very humid vivs.
A good, calcium enriched, clay substrate does a couple of important things. First off, it mimics the nutrient poor forest floor in the areas our frogs are found. This can give us more realistic growth rates without the constant trimming. I'm not saying plant growth will stagnate, but traditional substrates are rather rich compared to a dart frogs natural habitat. Honestly though, that part concerns me very little. What I am in it for, is the calcium.
There is calcium in the clay substrate. When your microfauna crawl around, they get it on them and in them. When your frogs eat the bugs, they will ingest some of this, reaping the benefits of the calcium. Your frogs may also be able to absorb some of the calcium directly through their skin. This can be helpful particularly with eggfeeders and other small froglets that are not taking dusted flies from day one.


----------



## tclipse

Neontra said:


> What's the difference from this and ABG?


Everything Pumilo mentioned above.... plus, it's CHEAP. I just spent ~$20 on enough redart/bentonite/calcium carbonate to do backgrounds AND substrate on a whole bunch of vivs. Premixed ABG would be that much for *maybe* two verts worth.

Would love to see this stickied, very informative & helpful.


----------



## gturmindright

Okay, I ordered my supplies. My plant is to make it and then roll it out on a cookie sheet over parchment paper and then cut it with a pizza cutter into quarter inch squares so they break up easy after I bake it. Plan sound like it'll work?


----------



## Pumilo

gturmindright said:


> Okay, I ordered my supplies. My plant is to make it and then roll it out on a cookie sheet over parchment paper and then cut it with a pizza cutter into quarter inch squares so they break up easy after I bake it. Plan sound like it'll work?


It should work. You might want to do a small test batch first to make sure it is going to release from the parchment paper. Even if it doesn't release right, you could still use it as it's food safe. It would just look funny until it decomposed and was eaten by your bugs. If it doesn't release right, though, it will be a hassle to cut it all up to get it into little cubes.


----------



## gturmindright

Do you just put it directly on a cookie sheet or what?

Also, I read this thread a couple times and I don't know if this is addressed, would you use this substrate or this size of substrate for something like terribilis? Can they accidentally eat a chunk or does it sort of get stuck together. I like to keep everything the same way, I was gonna just do a grow out tank but now I think I'm gonna do everything in clay from now on if it's as successful as I hear. I think it would be good for me bc I don't have a misting system, I just mist by hand so it should stay good for a really long time for me.


----------



## Pumilo

gturmindright said:


> Do you just put it directly on a cookie sheet or what?
> 
> Also, I read this thread a couple times and I don't know if this is addressed, would you use this substrate or this size of substrate for something like terribilis? Can they accidentally eat a chunk or does it sort of get stuck together. I like to keep everything the same way, I was gonna just do a grow out tank but now I think I'm gonna do everything in clay from now on if it's as successful as I hear. I think it would be good for me bc I don't have a misting system, I just mist by hand so it should stay good for a really long time for me.


I put a disposable, aluminum, cake pan/roasting pan under my screen and just push it through the screen, letting it fall into the disposable pan. Because it's not rolled out in the pan, I have no issues with it sticking to the pan.



Pumilo said:


> Place a cookie sheet or a disposable aluminum cake pan under the screen so that your little cubes of clay will fall straight in. This will help to reduce the sticking together that you are going to get. Push clay patties through screen to make into little cubes. I like to use this rubber sanding block that I got at WalMart. I push down and then slide the block towards me while still pushing down. Doing small sections at a time makes it easy.


----------



## Ed

Rolling it out isn't ideal as you are going to remove all of the little air pockets and voids that the preperation methods try to create... those are important for structure and for microfaunal spots (if they open up over time). This is why passing it through a screen, letting that dry and breaking it up accomplishes. 

Ed


----------



## Robzilla56

I wouldn't mind seeing some picture of a viv or two that have used your clay substrates. It seems many people are moving to this and I'm also curious whats the longest you guys have had one with the clay in it? Do you plan on cleaning them out after a year or so or just leaving it? Also whats the consensus on false bottoms or drainage layer underneath this?

Just a few questions I had for the experts

Robbie


----------



## Ed

Robzilla56 said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing some picture of a viv or two that have used your clay substrates. It seems many people are moving to this and I'm also curious whats the longest you guys have had one with the clay in it? Do you plan on cleaning them out after a year or so or just leaving it? Also whats the consensus on false bottoms or drainage layer underneath this?
> 
> Just a few questions I had for the experts
> 
> Robbie


If you set the clay up properly there are people out there with enclosures that were set up more than a decade. 
If I remember correctly there are some after shots in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how-12.html#post622732 

Ed


----------



## jejton

Trying to decide on a substrate for my reentry to PDF and this looks worth a try. The main barrier I'm having is buying everything in a cost effective manner for 2 vivs ( no bigger floor space than a 29 gallon ). It seems like the cost of getting everything shipped from different suppliers will cost as much as the material. Anyone in NY area know where I can buy the ingredients locally? 
Also, instead of using a false bottom ( I just hate dealing with cutting eggcrate and its getting harder to find anyways ), can I lay the clay on top of hydroton/leica/gravel with windowscreen as a barrier?


----------



## tnwalkers

hey Doug I was curious how would this work as a material to build a 'pond' feature or shallow pools?


----------



## Pumilo

tnwalkers said:


> hey Doug I was curious how would this work as a material to build a 'pond' feature or shallow pools?


I think that your water would remain continually cloudy. I'm really not sure if if would stand up long term. I KNOW that a primarily bentonite clay would absolutely NOT work. It would turn into mush, and then gray water.
I think there are probably better ways to build a pond.


----------



## jejton

Can anyone convert the volume measurements in the recipe to pounds? The site I'm trying to order from sells by weight only.


----------



## Ed

Sodium bentonite is used as a liner for ponds and retention ponds because as it swells it binds to the soild in the bottom of the pond creating a water proof barrier. This is often impractical in the enclosures 

1) the thickness needed for a stable pool and the amount it swells makes it impractical
2) the volume in the enclosure is typically too small to keep the pH swings down


Some comments

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Thanks Ed, and I do remember discussions with you concerning the possibility of using clay for a leaking tank and how it is used for leaks in ponds. Both of those uses, of course, are relying on existing surfaces to bond to and be able to fill cracks. I just wasn't sure it would be the best material to try to build up the bank of a pond for. I'm not sure the wall would hold it's integrity, long term, under constant contact with water.


----------



## Ed

Pumilo said:


> Thanks Ed, and I do remember discussions with you concerning the possibility of using clay for a leaking tank and how it is used for leaks in ponds. Both of those uses, of course, are relying on existing surfaces to bond to and be able to fill cracks. I just wasn't sure it would be the best material to try to build up the bank of a pond for. I'm not sure the wall would hold it's integrity, long term, under constant contact with water.


I wouldn't try a wall of it in contact with water unless your really serious on taking the long slow route.... I spent more than six months getting some clay to withstand a slow water flow....that means no animals and no messing with it as that disrupts the structure.

Ed


----------



## rgwheels

Great thread thanks! 

I have two practical questions:
1. How does one make the background with the clay? Does it simply adhere to the glass and hold its form? I'm assuming background clay is mushed onto the glass. Or would you place something like an egg crate behind it.
2. Should microfauna be added as soon as the clay and tank are set or should the tank sit for some time?

Thanks, I'm starting to persuade my wife to let me do a new build with clay!


----------



## Ed

What kind of clay do you intend to use? 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

rgwheels said:


> Great thread thanks!
> 
> I have two practical questions:
> 1. How does one make the background with the clay? Does it simply adhere to the glass and hold its form? I'm assuming background clay is mushed onto the glass. Or would you place something like an egg crate behind it.
> 2. Should microfauna be added as soon as the clay and tank are set or should the tank sit for some time?
> 
> Thanks, I'm starting to persuade my wife to let me do a new build with clay!


Here is how I did my last clay background. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/78189-not-another-pumilo-build.html


----------



## rgwheels

I was going to use the recipe mentioned at the beginning with the modifications that were discussed in the thread elsewhere. I'm considering starting with a ten gallon vert to get practice. Then moving to a bigger build later. 



Ed said:


> What kind of clay do you intend to use?
> 
> Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Read through this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/74843-clay-fail.html paying attention to Ed's comments regarding slowing things down and establishing a bio film. It will be helpful for long term success.


----------



## gotham229

I having a hard time finding sodium and calcium bentonate. Dors anyone know where i might be able to obtain this. I found this but not sure if this is correct.

Bentonite 325 Mesh (sold per lb.)
Bentonite - BentoLite L-10 (White) (sold per lb.)

Thank you for you help


----------



## Ed

Talk to the pottery suppliers directly. They can usually answer the questions. 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

My pottery store has no idea what Calcium Bentonite is. I get my Calcium Bentonite from eBay seller "doormatz". Here is a link to the product 4 Pounds or 14 Pounds Calcium Bentonite Clay Koi Ponds Plants Worldwide | eBay
That link won't last because it is an eBay item. Here is the link to his seller page. eBay My World - doormatz When you see his listing that shows Koi or goldfish in the pic, you have the right product.

Checking your links, it looks like this one Bentonite - BentoLite L-10 (White) (sold per lb.) will work for your Calcium Bentonite.
This one Bentonite 325 Mesh (sold per lb.) does not state that it is sodium bentonite, HOWEVER, it does state, "The most commonly used bentonite, and is considered a standard glaze and clay additive.", and that is what sodium bentonite is used for. I believe it is the right product, but you might want to contact them and ask.


----------



## R1ch13

*Move to Clay Substrate Thread*



Ed said:


> It is possible that red art isn't available since that is a specific location harvested in the USA and I've seen some sellers that didn't carry it. I do have doubts that multiple equivalent clays aren't available from ceramic/pottery suppliers.... since high iron clays are some of the most common clays used in making pottery and virtually all will function the same way in the enclosurer.
> 
> Ed


Thought I'd somewhat resurrect this thread after yet another reading in its entirety.

Being in the UK myself and having never had any luck sourcing RedArt clay like Gex, are there any substitutes you would recommend?

It is my understanding that RedArt is simply a brand name for a red, high iron Earthenware clay sourced from a particular area within the US.

Would the likes of other red Earthenware clays or even Terracotta suffice as a stand in?

Regards,
Richie


----------



## Ed

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*

any red earthware clay should be fine. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## R1ch13

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*



Ed said:


> any red earthware clay should be fine.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Cheers for that Ed, will give it a go in the new year and see what I come up with. Had almost given up hope on creating a good clay substrate! 

Organics just don't cut it...

Regards,
Richie


----------



## Pumilo

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*



R1ch13 said:


> Thought I'd somewhat resurrect this thread after yet another reading in its entirety.
> 
> Being in the UK myself and having never had any luck sourcing RedArt clay like Gex, are there any substitutes you would recommend?
> 
> It is my understanding that RedArt is simply a brand name for a red, high iron Earthenware clay sourced from a particular area within the US.
> 
> Would the likes of other red Earthenware clays or even Terracotta suffice as a stand in?
> 
> Regards,
> Richie





Ed said:


> any red earthware clay should be fine.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed





R1ch13 said:


> Cheers for that Ed, will give it a go in the new year and see what I come up with. Had almost given up hope on creating a good clay substrate!
> 
> Organics just don't cut it...
> 
> Regards,
> Richie


Just don't try substituting more bentonite, instead of RedArt or other red clay. Bentonite based mixes degraded and turned to mush VERY quickly in my side by side comparisons.


----------



## R1ch13

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*



Pumilo said:


> Just don't try substituting more bentonite, instead of RedArt or other red clay. Bentonite based mixes degraded and turned to mush VERY quickly in my side by side comparisons.


Cheers for that Doug, I wouldn't consider it. I tried a Calcium Bentonite based mix in a QT tub in 2010, it turned mushy almost instantly -boy was I pleased it wasn't a viv.

Regarding Turface, this is another hard to come by component. However, I have used a clay product in vivs for a few years which has proven to hold its form very well with impeccable drainage. The product is called Akadama and is a reknowned Bonsai potting substrate - does this sound comparable to turface/infield conditioner?

Regards,
Richie

EDIT: Answered my own question



> "The product manufactured in the United States called "Turface", most often used as a soil amendment and for surface dressing of baseball infields, is often erroneously thought to be a similar material. However, it bears no similarity to Akadama."


I would still be interested in hearing whether you guys think Akadama could play a part in creating a suitable clay based substrate mix. Am I right in saying Turface is mainly used to aid in drainage and to bulk out homemade RedArt substrate mixes?


----------



## Pumilo

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*



R1ch13 said:


> Cheers for that Doug, I wouldn't consider it. I tried a Calcium Bentonite based mix in a QT tub in 2010, it turned mushy almost instantly -boy was I pleased it wasn't a viv.
> 
> Regarding Turface, this is another hard to come by component. However, I have used a clay product in vivs for a few years which has proven to hold its form very well with impeccable drainage. The product is called Akadama and is a reknowned Bonsai potting substrate - does this sound comparable to turface/infield conditioner?
> 
> Regards,
> Richie
> 
> EDIT: Answered my own question
> 
> 
> 
> I would still be interested in hearing whether you guys think Akadama could play a part in creating a suitable clay based substrate mix. Am I right in saying Turface is mainly used to aid in drainage and to bulk out homemade RedArt substrate mixes?


Akadama would work just fine as a substitute for Turface. They are both, basically hardened clay. Turface is manufactured and is a fired product. Akadama is a naturally forming, clay like mineral. Turface is used instead of Akadama all the time, by American bonsai growers. In fact, turface is one of the main components of the custom blend sold by Denver's best bonsai greenhouse.
Yes, they are different. But they are also very similar. The similar qualities they share are these:
1) They are both long lasting, and won't turn to mush.
2) They both provide excellent drainage.
3) They are both porous, and will hold some water, while still being extremely well drained.
4) They are both either natural, or made of natural materials.
5) They are both very lightweight.

For all these reasons, I believe that Akadama will work just as well as Turface for a drainage layer.
The problem I would have with Akadama is the very high price tag it carries around here.

Edit: Are you talking about using it as a drainage layer, under your clay substrate, or are you mixing it into the clay? I don't mix any turface into my clay. Here is my clay recipe. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


----------



## R1ch13

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*

Thanks very much Doug, really appreciate all the brilliant information! I had a feeling Akadama would serve a similar role as Turface, I really have been very impressed with how it has held up in my vivs over the past couple of years! 



> Are you talking about using it as a drainage layer, under your clay substrate, or are you mixing it into the clay? I don't mix any turface into my clay. Here is my clay recipe.


I would only use the Akadama as a layer underneath my clay to aid in drainage and help lessen the amount of homemade clay substrate used.

I am re-reading your Clay Substrate thread as I type this...

Cheers Doug!

Regards,
Richie


----------



## Pumilo

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*



R1ch13 said:


> Thanks very much Doug, really appreciate all the brilliant information! I had a feeling Akadama would serve a similar role as Turface, I really have been very impressed with how it has held up in my vivs over the past couple of years!
> 
> 
> 
> I would only use the Akadama as a layer underneath my clay to aid in drainage and help lessen the amount of homemade clay substrate used.
> 
> I am re-reading your Clay Substrate thread as I type this...
> 
> Cheers Doug!
> 
> Regards,
> Richie


I'd say go for it, then. I would have no qualms about using it in my own tanks.


----------



## Ed

*Re: The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!*

Digging into Akadema, it is apparently a volcanic clay which is fired to some extent or other (if it wasn't fired it would clump). For a discussion on volcanic clays see http://www.isric.org/isric/webdocs/docs/ISM_SM2.pdf 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Judy S

*More Clay Cleanup*

So you are supplying it as substrate material, not for clay builds?? Is it like a powder or like a dust???? The wet clay keeps forever in a plastic bag and in a cool place if it does get wet for whatever reason...


----------



## Pumilo

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*

Judy, it is a completed and formed, clay substrate. It is not for clay walls, although if you wanted to, you could moisten it and reform it for clay backgrounds. The recipe would work very well for that, but it would be an expensive way to get a clay wall, as much of what you are paying for is the labor to press the clay into substrate cubes.
Here are some pictures of the completed clay substrate, as it is sold. Notice all the voids between particles. This is perfect for microfauna.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/at...7073257-clay-substrate-how-tank-build-023.jpg
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/at...7073257-clay-substrate-how-tank-build-021.jpg

Here are a couple pics of it in a viv being constructed.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/at...7073499-clay-substrate-how-dennis-viv-017.jpg
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/at...7073499-clay-substrate-how-dennis-viv-019.jpg


----------



## RobR

I assume this would be ideal to load up a refugium with as well? If you had an already set up Viv you wanted to add the benefits to without tearing it down.


----------



## Judy S

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*

Great question.......and it looks as though you just layered it on top of Turface...So how do you keep the plants and inhabitants misted without making a clay pot???


----------



## Pumilo

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*



RobR said:


> I assume this would be ideal to load up a refugium with as well? If you had an already set up Viv you wanted to add the benefits to without tearing it down.


Yes, it would be ideal for a refugium, but keep in mind that it is the contact between leaf litter and clay, that make such a great bug zone, so you would want to use leaf litter in your refugium, too.



Judy S said:


> Great question.......and it looks as though you just layered it on top of Turface...So how do you keep the plants and inhabitants misted without making a clay pot???


I'm afraid I don't understand your question, Judy. Why would I need a clay pot? The clay substrate IS your dirt. You don't use ABG or anything, you simply use an inch of Turface, then an inch of clay. Your plants can go directly into the clay. You mist your clay substrate viv just like any other viv.
This is really a conversation that belongs in the how to thread that was linked in the first post. Here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html I really think that if you look over that thread, as Scott suggested, all your questions would be answered, but I'm happy to answer your questions over there. 
Thanks!


----------



## frog dude

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*



Pumilo said:


> I'm afraid I don't understand your question, Judy. Why would I need a clay pot? The clay substrate IS your dirt. You don't use ABG or anything, you simply use an inch of Turface, then an inch of clay. Your plants can go directly into the clay. You mist your clay substrate viv just like any other viv.
> This is really a conversation that belongs in the how to thread that was linked in the first post. Here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html I really think that if you look over that thread, as Scott suggested, all your questions would be answered, but I'm happy to answer your questions over there.
> Thanks!


I think what Judy was trying to say was that if moisture got into the clay substrate, wouldn't it dissolve into a clay-mud mess? No, Judy, I think you took the word 'clay' a little to literally. Yes, it once was a soft, squishy clay but after it was baked solid it will remain solid, moisture not affecting it. 

Read through the thread that Doug and Scott linked, you'll see what I am saying.


----------



## Judy S

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*

For whatever reason, baking must make the "clay" impossible to be made pliable, elastic...whatever...if it were simply dried, it may be possible for the misting of the plants to soften the clay substance....That was the point that I must not have understood...ergo: clay pot comment... I have read, made and used the clay for a couple of vivs...a real mistake with tree frogs...and still have a big clump in a plastic bag...but the baking must change it permanently...Thank you for the clarification...


----------



## Judy S

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*

As penance I went back and read the 17 page thread...evidently the other clay threads were similiar to this one, but this thread did have information that filled in the intelligence gap I was suffering from......


----------



## frogparty

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*

If you mess with it too much it WILL compress down and squish. You don't want that at all. I have clay substrate and what I do is put my drainage layer down. Then I crush up a bunch of leaf litter, and mix it up with the dry clay pieces and lay it down over the drainage layer. Then I dump a culture of springs, and a culture of isopods over that. Then a 1.5" layer of leaf litter over that. Any planting shoul be done initially, before that substrate becomes moist from misting


----------



## Pumilo

*Re: Pumilo's Clay Substrate*



frog dude said:


> I think what Judy was trying to say was that if moisture got into the clay substrate, wouldn't it dissolve into a clay-mud mess? No, Judy, I think you took the word 'clay' a little to literally. Yes, it once was a soft, squishy clay but after it was baked solid it will remain solid, moisture not affecting it.
> 
> Read through the thread that Doug and Scott linked, you'll see what I am saying.





Judy S said:


> For whatever reason, baking must make the "clay" impossible to be made pliable, elastic...whatever...if it were simply dried, it may be possible for the misting of the plants to soften the clay substance....That was the point that I must not have understood...ergo: clay pot comment... I have read, made and used the clay for a couple of vivs...a real mistake with tree frogs...and still have a big clump in a plastic bag...but the baking must change it permanently...Thank you for the clarification...





Judy S said:


> As penance I went back and read the 17 page thread...evidently the other clay threads were similiar to this one, but this thread did have information that filled in the intelligence gap I was suffering from......


OK, I think you've got it Judy, but I'll clarify for Frog Dude and just to make sure.
It is a formed and DRIED, calcium enriched, clay substrate. It is NOT fired, so it is NOT permanently rock hard. If you abuse it, yes, you will clump it up and mess up the drainage. Thus the directions in the first page about planting it, and taking care not to mess it up.
This is exactly what we want with a clay substrate. We are trying to more closely mimic the clay soils where are frogs are found. If we were to fire the clay, it would lose much of its function. Firing the clay could lock up the calcium, or at least seriously impede it's release.
If you did accidentally mash it together, you could still press it and form it again, and re-use it.


----------



## Ed

Part of the reason the clay is worked and passed through a screen and dried is to provide some structure to the clay. The reason for this is that the soils where the frogs are from (and other regions..) have structure that has been produced by action of fungi, microbes, plants (roots for example), and other things.. That structure is missing in the clay we make for the cages so we have to substitute until the natural processes can catch up. Clay in addition to the other benefits is aimed at being a very long-term substrate. The longer it is set up and allowed to function the better it should get... 

Working the clay also provides the structure that allows the penetration of air and water to some extent... As test subjects you can see some examples of bromeliads rooting directly through clay substrate, through the false bottom, air gap and into the water... See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/55550-clay-background-vert-8.html#post484793 I took down one of those tanks (since I was upgrading to large enclosures) but I still have one that has now been up since before that picture with a live growing epiphytiic bromeliad rooted through the clay... no signs of rotting... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Ed said:


> Part of the reason the clay is worked and passed through a screen and dried is to provide some structure to the clay. The reason for this is that the soils where the frogs are from (and other regions..) have structure that has been produced by action of fungi, microbes, plants (roots for example), and other things.. That structure is missing in the clay we make for the cages so we have to substitute until the natural processes can catch up. Clay in addition to the other benefits is aimed at being a very long-term substrate. The longer it is set up and allowed to function the better it should get...
> 
> Working the clay also provides the structure that allows the penetration of air and water to some extent... As test subjects you can see some examples of bromeliads rooting directly through clay substrate, through the false bottom, air gap and into the water... See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/55550-clay-background-vert-8.html#post484793 I took down one of those tanks (since I was upgrading to large enclosures) but I still have one that has now been up since before that picture with a live growing epiphytiic bromeliad rooted through the clay... no signs of rotting...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Let's take a further look at what happens while we form the clay structure. Part of the theory of pushing it through the 1/4" holes is to give each and every clay particle, an external structure. When we pile them together, we get all those great gaps in the overall clay structure as seen here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/at...7073257-clay-substrate-how-tank-build-021.jpg and here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/at...7073257-clay-substrate-how-tank-build-023.jpg.

OK, now clean your glasses, rub your eyeballs, and let's try to look even closer. We are going inside a single piece of clay. In a small lump of wet, unworked clay, there are many pieces of sand and bits of peat or coco fiber. As this clump of wet clay is pressed through the 1/4" grids, bits of the sand and peat are pushed around, and forced into different positions. This causes many micro-cavitations, in each and every piece of clay. Let's really zoom in this time. This is about as close as we can go with my camera.


----------



## Judy S

Dare I ask another question??? Does moss grow on the clay substrate??


----------



## Pumilo

Of course you can ask another question. But then, after that, only one more or "they" ban you! 
If your lighting were right, I see no reason why it wouldn't. Moss does not grow on my substrate, but 90 - 95% of my clay substrate is covered in leaf litter. The remaining bit is left clear for a feeding area. This clearing is where the dusted flies are dumped, and the dust would tend to kill off mosses.
That is how mine are set up. I prefer not to have ANY mosses on the floor. That is an area I believe is better spent on leaf litter. Instead I'll grow mosses on ghost wood, and on cork bark structures and backgrounds.


----------



## Ed

Judy S said:


> Dare I ask another question??? Does moss grow on the clay substrate??


Yes, see the pictures here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/55182-calcium-bentonite-3.html#post478408 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## spangberg82

Wonder if it would be possible to use stoneware clay instead of red clay?


----------



## Ed

spangberg82 said:


> Wonder if it would be possible to use stoneware clay instead of red clay?


The reason red clay is suggested is because this is the one that most closely mimics the soil and clay characteristics found in the same areas as the frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Harpo

I cooked up my first batch tonight, everything went great. This recipe is super easy to follow. Thank you everyone who contributed. I didn't have any wire screen so instead I used some PlayDoh tools  It all worked out great.

A tip for cooking if you want to speed things up: use a pizza pan. The holes in the pan will help it dry out in about 1/2 the time (even when using tin foil). I ran 4 trays tonight and the pizza pan was a sprint compared to the 3 way cookie sheet marathon.


----------



## Kalakole

I'm not sure if this was answered previously but, how long would the calcium used in the substrate be viable for? I mean we change our supplements every 6 months.. I'm sorry in advance if this was answered or is obvious. 

=D


----------



## Harpo

Kalakole said:


> I'm not sure if this was answered previously but, how long would the calcium used in the substrate be viable for? I mean we change our supplements every 6 months.. I'm sorry in advance if this was answered or is obvious.
> 
> =D


Good question. I remember at one point in the thread Ed suggesting to Pumilo (when the topic of recharging / amending came about) that he should simply move where he is dumping his feeders. I am assuming he means dumping feeders + dust = excess dust reentering the substrate. 

There is a complex set of variables that I am sure has an obvious answer. I would love to hear some science behind the viable calcium saturation levels of the clay, etc (life expectancy of a calcium supplement exposed to air, irrigation, etc). I am sure the variables are far more complex than "dump supplement/amendment here".

To add, if there is a "best" or "better" way to recharge the clay?

Edit: My bad too for possibly overlooking....there are a lot of posts between this thread and the Ultimate thread


----------



## Pumilo

Vitamins expire. Calcium is a mineral and should last a long, long time. When speaking about our dusting supplements, calcium is a different story. The reason there is because our frogs (or you, for that matter) cannot process calcium without D3 being present. Most of us do not use UVB producing lights over our frog tanks, therefore, a proper frog calcium has D3 mixed into it, so our frogs can process and utilize it. It is the D3 that expires.


----------



## Harpo

Pumilo said:


> Vitamins expire. Calcium is a mineral and should last a long, long time. When speaking about our dusting supplements, calcium is a different story. The reason there is because our frogs (or you, for that matter) cannot process calcium without D3 being present. Most of us do not use UVB producing lights over our frog tanks, therefore, a proper frog calcium has D3 mixed into it, so our frogs can process and utilize it. It is the D3 that expires.


Thanks for clarifying.

Would erosion ever play a factor with the calcium level in the substrate? Given the long term success people have experienced I'd assume not much....if any. I am curious if anyone has tracked calcium measurements long term in a typical vivarium enclosure...


----------



## Kalakole

Just to clarify, the level of calcium in the mix wont deminish over time other than from the natural consumption by frogs and the bugs?


----------



## Pumilo

Kalakole said:


> Just to clarify, the level of calcium in the mix wont deminish over time other than from the natural consumption by frogs and the bugs?


. yes


----------



## Ash Katchum

Just a thought, would it be bad to make the clay substrate in to a fine powder and mix it with the main substrate instead of leaving it in small chunks? Or spreading it over the top of the substrate? 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Pumilo

Ash Katchum said:


> Just a thought, would it be bad to make the clay substrate in to a fine powder and mix it with the main substrate instead of leaving it in small chunks? Or spreading it over the top of the substrate?
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


I'm lost. It *IS* your main substrate. I hope you aren't talking about mixing it with ABG or something like that. It would be a horrible gooey mess. All the organics in the ABG would wick and lock up the calcium, making it un-accessable. 
Adding calcium to a traditional, dirt like substrate would not work.


----------



## Ash Katchum

Oo I see, it was just a thought. Thnx for clearing it up. I wanted to see if it was possible to just add some to the substrate instead of using the clay as the main and only substrate but I guess not.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


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## Pumilo

Ash Katchum said:


> Oo I see, it was just a thought. Thnx for clearing it up. I wanted to see if it was possible to just add some to the substrate instead of using the clay as the main and only substrate but I guess not.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


I suppose you could mix it with the Turface, as that is simply a fired clay, and wouldn't have the same problem organics would give you. You would simply be diluting the effects of the clay, though. It makes more sense to layer it with the Turface.


----------



## Ash Katchum

Pumilo said:


> I suppose you could mix it with the Turface, as that is simply a fired clay, and wouldn't have the same problem organics would give you. You would simply be diluting the effects of the clay, though. It makes more sense to layer it with the Turface.


True but I would rather have it mixed with some type of organic. It was just something I was curious about. It would be great if there was some type of material that could be mixed with organic substrate to add calcium without any ill effects to it. 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


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## TDK

The only fine Aragonite Sand that I found locally is at Petco for salt water tanks. Same thing just rinse it well? Please advise.


----------



## Ed

Ash Katchum said:


> True but I would rather have it mixed with some type of organic. It was just something I was curious about. It would be great if there was some type of material that could be mixed with organic substrate to add calcium without any ill effects to it.
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2


As has been mentioned in the past...mixing calcium carbonate or other materials into a substrate that is high in organic materials that release humic acids isn't going to provide the benefit you think it might... The reason is that the particles of calcium carbonate are going to end up coated in insoluble calcium humate salts (one of the reasons black water streams are very low in hardness....)... This is going to render the calcium unavailable for the most part... In clay substrates the calcium held by the clay until it is replaced by another positive ion which is why the calcium is (as I understand it) much more bioavailable..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo

TDK said:


> The only fine Aragonite Sand that I found locally is at Petco for salt water tanks. Same thing just rinse it well? Please advise.


Sounds like what you are looking for. If it's new, in a sealed bag, you shouldn't have to bother rinsing.


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## TDK

Pumilo said:


> Sounds like what you are looking for. If it's new, in a sealed bag, you shouldn't have to bother rinsing.


Thanks. I'll check it out and pick some up.


----------



## SAS

Has anyone tried mixing calcium carbonate into other conventional substrates to increase calcium intake by the frogs?


----------



## slipperheads

Dear Doug,

I normally completely tear apart my tanks after two year and redo them because of the bacteria buildup. Does the clay substrate eliminate the need for this?


----------



## Pumilo

§lipperhead said:


> Dear Doug,
> 
> I normally completely tear apart my tanks after two year and redo them because of the bacteria buildup. Does the clay substrate eliminate the need for this?


If you run it properly, without over misting, you should be able to run a clay substrate for 10 years without teardown or replacement.


----------



## frogparty

Ed said:


> As has been mentioned in the past...mixing calcium carbonate or other materials into a substrate that is high in organic materials that release humic acids isn't going to provide the benefit you think it might... The reason is that the particles of calcium carbonate are going to end up coated in insoluble calcium humate salts (one of the reasons black water streams are very low in hardness....)... This is going to render the calcium unavailable for the most part... In clay substrates the calcium held by the clay until it is replaced by another positive ion which is why the calcium is (as I understand it) much more bioavailable.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


This is absolutely correct Ed


----------



## Ed

§lipperhead said:


> Dear Doug,
> 
> I normally completely tear apart my tanks after two year and redo them because of the bacteria buildup. Does the clay substrate eliminate the need for this?


 
Okay, I have to admit, this reason makes me very curious as to what the reasoning behind it might be.... Why do you feel that the bacteria levels are a problem after 2 years? 

As Doug noted, properly set up..clay substrate based enclosures should be stable for as long as you want to leave it set up... At a little more than a decade, that is how long some of the longest running ones I know of have been set up... (and are still going strong and one of them is still producing old line blue jean pumilio with no signs of slowing down.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## slipperheads

Ed said:


> Okay, I have to admit, this reason makes me very curious as to what the reasoning behind it might be.... Why do you feel that the bacteria levels are a problem after 2 years?
> 
> As Doug noted, properly set up..clay substrate based enclosures should be stable for as long as you want to leave it set up... At a little more than a decade, that is how long some of the longest running ones I know of have been set up... (and are still going strong and one of them is still producing old line blue jean pumilio with no signs of slowing down....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Reasoning? 

I found that after a couple of years my tanks' walls were overcame with green bacteria. I water and mist more often than most hobbyists I think do. Over time, my hardscaping deteriorates and I take the tanks apart to clean everything out. I don't have reasons, I am just telling my story .


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## TDK

Just thinking what if you took your clay substrate mix, ground it fine, and put it in a misting bottle and misted the substrate once a week? Could this be a way of making sure your frogs and springtails, etc. came in contact with the calcium? Of course it will probably clog it up after a short time. Opinions.


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## Pumilo

Keep in mind that would leave hard water stains on your glass.


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## DrawntoLife

Just a heads up I picked up 50# red art 10# sodium bentonite and 10# calcium bentonite at Laguna clay company for only $34 and it only cost me $8 in gas to get there and back


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## TDK

Pumilo said:


> Keep in mind that would leave hard water stains on your glass.


Yeah you'd need to be careful of overspray. I meant to say spray the leaf litter. If your tank was large you could spray just the middle.


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## Ed

TDK said:


> Just thinking what if you took your clay substrate mix, ground it fine, and put it in a misting bottle and misted the substrate once a week? Could this be a way of making sure your frogs and springtails, etc. came in contact with the calcium? Of course it will probably clog it up after a short time. Opinions.


The problem here is that you are shooting pulses of clay into your substrate where it is going to compress and seal up the areas of the substrate reducing air flow, water flow and potentially creating anaerobic pockets.. It doesn't supply the stable clay-leaf litter interface that is the greatest area of productivity for the microfauna.... It is still better to set up a stable clay area with a couple of bare spots for access if the frogs choose and the maximal interface for the microfauna. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## TDK

My thought was just enough clay in the water to make the water cloudy--not enough for the mixture to be thick or binding.


----------



## Ed

TDK said:


> My thought was just enough clay in the water to make the water cloudy--not enough for the mixture to be thick or binding.


This still isn't going to provide the structure of the clay that ensures it's maximal effectiveness. The reason clay is beneficial is how it functions in a mass as opposed to diffused through the organics.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

TDK- I think I know what youre getting at. The better option, in my opinion, is to leave exposed clay patches in your tank that flies, isos and frogs can directly contact. Spraying a clay/h2o mixture over your leaves seems unnecessary, and would defintely clog any open air spaces beneath as the mixture drained down. Over time, youd have an anoxic soil because air exchange capacity would be greatly diminished.


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## TDK

Thanks. Actually I am doing that now. I left a few pieces exposed and one spot on top of a lid I use to siphon water out of the substrate where I sunk a pill bottle I perforated to allow water in and I put a chunk where the frogs would be crossing on a section of wood. I received some El Dorado's from FROGFACE and they are breeding and that's why I have started looking into this further.


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## Pumilo

From everything I have read, while doing research on calcium bearing clay substrates, I am of the opinion that there is NO way to properly mix traditional, dirt-like substrates (or organic substrates) with calcium or calcium bearing clay substrates. 
The short term results will be the organics binding up the calcium and making it accessible and unusable. The long term results will be the calcium still being bound up and unusable, in addition to the drainage properties of the traditional substrate being messed up. The clay will eventually simply clog up the organics as it all becomes a gooey mess.
If you feel the desire to mix substrates, this is probably best done my setting up separate areas of the viv. Perhaps the back half of the viv can be done in ABG mix, while the front half is set up with a good calcium bearing clay substrate on top of Turface. You are not truly mixing this way, but rather, setting up different zones.
Now in my experience, plants grow wonderfully in clay substrates. The do tend to take a little longer to establish and take off, which is why use a small handful of traditional substrate at each spot I put a plant or cutting. Sometimes, when adding a cutting to an already established clay substrate, I will simply poke a hole in the wet clay with my finger, and set in a cutting wrapped in sphagnum moss. 
That said, I fail to see any benefits in mixing clay with traditional substrates. I feel that clay is the next step in a better, more natural substrate. I feel it's a bit like building a space ship, and deciding to put steel belted radial tires on it, "to have the best of both worlds--you know, in case I want to cruise it around". I just don't get the drive to mix the two. I guess the only reason I can see for this, is to stretch your clay substrate out, so that you don't as much. If this is the reason, I really think it is best done in zones. Do the back half in ABG, and the front half in clay. The "interface" area, where the two contact each other and "cancel each other out" should be at a minimum, or even eliminated, should you use a small plexiglass barrier.


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## flapjax3000

I agree that clay can become a gooey mess when binding with the organics, but I have tanks with mixed substrates that are over three years old now. The substrate is well aerated, and there are no issues with plant growth. I do use a different array of materials through out my vivarium, but this was based more on aesthetic design. I am re-posting my mix and procedure to get ideas on why I am experiencing different results than other posts I am reading. 

The idea of zones is a great one, and I absolutely promote this. I just want to find out why my base mix is not quite breaking down quite as fast as others. Also I want to find out if the clay experiment has increased the success of its inhabitants. 

My mix was posted years ago, but the basic components are:

Red art clay
Bentonite clay
Calcium Montmorillionite
Turface
Sphagnum moss
Coco earth
broken up tree fern
Leaf Litter 
Twigs

My ratios varied from viv to viv, but was usually around one part clay to three to four parts organic material. The wet clay before baking is a mixture of the red art, bentonite, calcium montmorillionite and turface. After baking the pieces vary in size from a grain of sand to dime size.

I believe that my soil is not experiencing issues due to established root growth and microfauna movement within the soil. Also I believe the low ratio of clay to organics, as well as the structure of some of the organics that I used (ex. tree fern) have slowed the process. I would love to hear comments on this from others that have had similar systems in place for at least two years. 

Is a pure clay substrate better for the frogs health rather than a mixed or pure organic one? This is assuming that other factors are a non issue such as drainage and microfauna development.


----------



## petitpaume

Has anyone tested the addition of airdry clays? They're clays with clay-nylon nanocomposites. Point of the clay is to harden and make it easier to use (ie. in schools) by removing the need to fire the clay. Although not waterproof, they become quite hard, almost as if they'd been through the kiln and most importantly, become a lot less brittle.

I suspect this may add strength to the clay mixture without having to fire it and therefore sequester the calcium sources... Yes/no/thoughs?


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## jhixf564

How much will the recipe in the first post make? I am going to order but do not want to have a lot of the ingredients lying around. I am building a 29 and will use turface and put this on top.


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## ChrisK

Chances are there will be a LOT laying around.


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## jhixf564

I live within 10 miles of a pottery supply store. His Laguna order is coming up and I wanted to order the Bentolite. I just want to order what I would roughly need for the 29. What the heck would I do with the rest? I was hoping somebody could give me a rough estimate how much I would need for a 29 build.


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## Pumilo

jhixf564 said:


> I live within 10 miles of a pottery supply store. His Laguna order is coming up and I wanted to order the Bentolite. I just want to order what I would roughly need for the 29. What the heck would I do with the rest? I was hoping somebody could give me a rough estimate how much I would need for a 29 build.


What are your tanks dimensions? I don't care about the height, just the width and length.


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## jhixf564

12 X 30. Will have two tiers maybe three. This guy sells stuff per pound so I can buy what I need. 

Thanks


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## Pumilo

jhixf564 said:


> 12 X 30. Will have two tiers maybe three. This guy sells stuff per pound so I can buy what I need.
> 
> Thanks


With multiple tiers, I'm not sure. Instead I'll tell you this. One batch makes about 1.5 to 1.75 gallons of clay. One gallon of clay gives you about 1" of clay substrate in a 10 gallon tank. A 10 gallon tank is 10" x 20" divided by 144 = 1.39 square feet. 
That, and a calculator, should give you what you need to figure out how many batches are required.


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## jhixf564

From what he told me a quart of clay powder with water is about a pound. So your recipe should yeild over 4-5 lbs. I should need about 2 batches. 

Thanks Pumilo


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## IEatBugs

I made my first batch of clay last night, everything went just fine but today it seems the clay is quite a bit softer than it was when I removed it from the oven last night. I can literally crush it with my fingers. I was expecting it to be a bit harder like it was when I took it out. Can someone let me know if this is the way it is supposed to be or not.


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## Pumilo

IEatBugs said:


> I made my first batch of clay last night, everything went just fine but today it seems the clay is quite a bit softer than it was when I removed it from the oven last night. I can literally crush it with my fingers. I was expecting it to be a bit harder like it was when I took it out. Can someone let me know if this is the way it is supposed to be or not.


It is absolutely supposed to be soft. If it were fully fired, it would not release calcium the same way. Obviously, as it stays soft, you will have to be more careful with misting. 
Dustin, this is all discussed in this very thread. It iss mentioned how soft it stays and how you cannot dig around in it. I'm only pointing this out, because I have to suspect you have not read more than the first page, or that you have missed some very important details. If you don't go back and take note of how to treat clay, with it's softer nature, you just might be in for a fail.


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## IEatBugs

Thanks Doug. I have read the thread completely, a couple of times actually, but I don't recall anything about how soft it actually is. I know not to go digging through it and so on, I just wanted to be sure that I had the correct consistency before I go using it.


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## dart8888

I'm making the clay subs now.
I dry-mixed all clay things, and I 'm boiling water with sugar and corn starch.
However It looks like that corn starch doesn't melt. It form some kind of gel.
Is it OK??

You didn't mention the volume of water, so I used around 2-3Gallon of water.

Is it OK??

Thanks


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## Pumilo

Actually, the amount of water is mentioned in the very first post.



Pumilo said:


> Boil Sugar and Corn Starch into water. Use water to hydrate mix. *I use about 3/4 of a 2 quart container*.


Being a gel is just fine. Cornstarch is often used as a thickener in cooking. Unfortunately, you have way too much water for the recipe.


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## Pumilo

Sent that out as quick as I could. I hope you got it before you did a final mix? Remixing the water, cornstarch, and sugar, wouldn't be much of a loss.


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## dart8888

Thank you.
one more question.
Is brown cane sugar OK to use?

I only have brown sugar.


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## dart8888

I used 1.3quart water, and it turned out that 1.3quart water is very insufficient.


I think that I have to have at least double amount of water to mix those clay.


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## Pumilo

Ok, great. I just meant that your initial stated amount of 2 to 3 gallons would have been too much for one batch.

I don't foresee any problems with using brown sugar, or brown cane sugar. It simply helps to fuel a bacterial film to form. This helps keep the soft clay from compacting. I suspect the springtails enjoy the sugary treat to help get them jump-started, too.


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## dart8888

I just finished to make the clay subs.
Wow It was very hard. especially squeezing the clay to make small piece was crazy. So I just used my two hands rolling clay to pencil shape.

I'm going to test every possible methods, and I just did the hardest one for first test!

Thank you.


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## Kdog420000

Got my last ingredient today. Starting my batch soon!


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## Yo-han

I'm new to vivariums, so don't shoot me, but how would this compare to commercial aqua soils used for aquariums?

NATURE AQUARIUM GOODS » Substrate System - Aqua Soil series ||| ADA Nature Aquarium - Aqua Design Amano Co., Ltd

This is baked soil as well. I grew plants submersed and emersed in it like crazy. Not harmful for fish and shrimp, so I suppose not for frogs either (although I could be wrong).


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## Pumilo

It's not the same at all Yo-han. For starters that one doesn't even say for sure if it is a clay. Even if it is, it is not specifically high in calcium. It is also fully fired. They say "baked" because people do not understand the term "fired". That product remains hard and fully solid, even when fully submersed.
A good, homemade, calcium enriched, clay substrate will get soft when moistened. It molds and reacts just like modeling clay. This is how the calcium stays mobile and is able to supply calcium to your frogs.
There is no easy way to do clay right. At this time, I don't believe anybody is making a product anything like this. You have to do it yourself, and you have to study it. Everybody wants a shortcut, but believe it or not, this thread IS the shortcut.


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## Yo-han

I didn't meant it as a shortcut. I used the stuff a lot and plants love it. Thats why I considered using it for a paludarium too. And I admit I missed the fact that it was mainly as a calcium supply for the frogs. I considered the Aquasoil as a growth medium for plants and thought yours was as well. It is indeed fully fired and contains mostly clay, but isn't high in calcium like you expected. I can tell that from use in aquariums.

Does your recipe cloud the water if everything below the substrate will be water?


----------



## Pumilo

Yo-han said:


> Does your recipe cloud the water if everything below the substrate will be water?


Yes it does. It takes a lot of precautions to properly utilize a calcium bearing clay substrate.


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## Yo-han

Hmm... I was already scared for that! Not an option for this tank, back to Aquasoil or ABG for now. But will certainly test this one day, thanks for your quick replies!


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## Dendrobait

I would argue that depending on what is in your water section the clay will not cloud the water. I have a newt tank that has been running for 6 years with a mix of HD aquatic plant soil, bentonite, and laterite clay background. Due to using mostly bentonite and no spraying a lot of bentonite eventually fell off the back into the water. It stays on the bottom unless the newts really swish it up when freaked out. The water in this tank is quite clear save for tannins(it did look like a muddy mess for the first few weeks). I say go for it.


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## Octothorpe

Pumilo said:


> Bake at about 300 until dry. Or you can just just air dry. After it has cooled, you will break up the chunks. It breaks up into small 1/4 inch cubes pretty easily. Some people don't bother with the cubes as it is the hardest part. I think it is important because it makes for lots of gaps between particles for springtail growth, soil aeration, drainage, and root growth.
> Here are a couple pics before baking.


Thank you SO much for this whole thread!
I finally got my hands on all the required ingredients this weekend, and finished up making the batch yesterday.
I ended up using a bit too much water in the mix, so it didn't look anything like those nice little patties you have in your thread... it was stupidly wet and extremely sticky. After pressing it through the screens though, it seemed to do ok (the only downfall was that -- due to the extra moisture -- it took about 6 hours in the 300 degree oven set on 'convection roast' to finally get it dry.
So, Question: The final product out of the oven is extremely tough, almost ceramic like. It breaks apart ok, but sounds somewhat lavarock like as it does (clinking). Is this normal?
Thanks again!


----------



## Pumilo

Octothorpe said:


> Thank you SO much for this whole thread!
> I finally got my hands on all the required ingredients this weekend, and finished up making the batch yesterday.
> I ended up using a bit too much water in the mix, so it didn't look anything like those nice little patties you have in your thread... it was stupidly wet and extremely sticky. After pressing it through the screens though, it seemed to do ok (the only downfall was that -- due to the extra moisture -- it took about 6 hours in the 300 degree oven set on 'convection roast' to finally get it dry.
> So, Question: The final product out of the oven is extremely tough, almost ceramic like. It breaks apart ok, but sounds somewhat lavarock like as it does (clinking). Is this normal?
> Thanks again!


It's perfect. They should be almost rock hard right now. As you SLOWLY mist it to full moisture, it will become soft and moldable again. You want to have all your planting and digging around done, just before, or as you plant. No more digging around after it is moist again.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Wow, just got done reading through this all. Very informative.

So in 3-4 months I will probably be purchasing my first darts. Perhaps a bit ambitious but I also want to do a plant biotope. So basically right now it's probably going to be leucs with a Venezuelan Rio Orinoco biotope.

So basically I have a few questions. I would love to nail the soil PH as natural as possible, from what I understand this requires the use of peat in the mix to drive down the PH? Has this been holding up longterm? Whats the most accurate mix I could do to nail the PH, will the acids leach out eventually leaving me with a higher PH soil? 

I've been researching what the average leuc habitat looks like too and it looks like leaf litter with alot of fallen logs and mostly epis growing on trees or fallen logs, but it seems there are at least a few begonia types growing in the ground. Would this work for having a few ground plants of that nature?

In terms of supplementation how would this change (I will be using UVB so should get natural D)? Do you reduce feeding of cultured feeders because of the increase micro fauna density?

One last question, I noticed somebody a while back made a star shaped die for a playdoh mold....did this make a significant increase in available micro fauna surface area (and thus increase their density)?


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

One other thing. I think this would be an amazing substrate for way more than just darts. Would it be okay if I linked to or made a file containing the info here for the Reptiles and Amphibians Bio-active Setups facebook group? I will give credits for sure. I'd imagine the increased micro fauna density and the natural way to deliver calcium would be the cats meow for alot of bioactive tropical herp keepers. Also do you think this would actually work in a temperate herp setup as well? Obviously it would only be ideal for light bodied herps though otherwise it would get compacted down I'd imagine.


----------



## macuser

Rushthezeppelin said:


> One other thing. I think this would be an amazing substrate for way more than just darts. Would it be okay if I linked to or made a file containing the info here for the Reptiles and Amphibians Bio-active Setups facebook group? I will give credits for sure. I'd imagine the increased micro fauna density and the natural way to deliver calcium would be the cats meow for alot of bioactive tropical herp keepers. Also do you think this would actually work in a temperate herp setup as well? Obviously it would only be ideal for light bodied herps though otherwise it would get compacted down I'd imagine.


have you looked into places that sell these ingredients? i looked at the date of when this thread was written and i saw the list of ingredients and the biggest barrier would be finding sources for all this stuff. i wouldnt even know where to begin. can you let me know if you find a good source for these ingredients? thanks


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## Rushthezeppelin

I think the clays could be found through pottery supply shops.

Edit: well at least the redart clay. The bentonite clays you might be able to source at a health food store. I'm sure all of this stuff can easily be found online.


----------



## macuser

Rushthezeppelin said:


> I think the clays could be found through pottery supply shops.
> 
> Edit: well at least the redart clay. The bentonite clays you might be able to source at a health food store. I'm sure all of this stuff can easily be found online.


cool. how many servings of this recipe do you think we'll need to fill up the grand? so you'll have the tank, a screen seperator, an inch or 2 of turface, an inch of the clay cubes, lots of isopods and springtails, and then leaf litter? 

everything does seem to be pretty easy to buy online.i found the turface all sport pro at John Deere Landscaper but its in 50lb bags. is there a better place to buy it? i dont think i'll need 50 pounds of it.


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

I don't have the slightest clue how much it would take to fill the biopod grand. TBH I'm waiting till I get it in hand before I decide 100% I'm doing the clay. I don't see any reason it wouldn't work though even if the tray isn't terribly deep. I'd imagine we could just use an ABG mix to dam it around the edges if need be.


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## Rushthezeppelin

Also I think you can find turface at tractor supply and other stores like that.


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## Celtic Aaron

I made a couple batches of this recently, and I got some great help from Doug. You can get the Redart clay, bentonite, and calcium carbonate from a pottery supply shop...the problem for me was finding a place that sells the raw materials and not the already made clay. Instead of buying the calcium carbonate from a vitamin shop, just buy it from the clay shop (it is called "whitening" and is pure calcium carbonate and is way cheaper). 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rushthezeppelin

Thanks a ton Celtic  What are your thoughts on the clay so far?


----------



## Celtic Aaron

Have yet to use it yet, but I'm very excited about it. I am getting ready to do a clay background for a basti tank and use the substrate as well. I will let you know how that goes. As for making the clay, be sure the clay is not too wet before you press it through the screen, otherwise it tends to clump up on the other side and then dries into much larger chunks, which makes it harder to break up. It worked much better when it was drier.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Celtic Aaron

Also, with the 2 batches I made, it was only about 3 gallons worth; however, I suspect that it will go pretty far, especially when using Turface below that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## macuser

Celtic Aaron said:


> Also, with the 2 batches I made, it was only about 3 gallons worth; however, I suspect that it will go pretty far, especially when using Turface below that.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


where did you get the turface from? does it have to be 'all sport pro' or is there an alternative? how deep will your layer of turface and clay be? what did you use to mix the clay with? thanks


----------



## macuser

Celtic Aaron said:


> I made a couple batches of this recently, and I got some great help from Doug. You can get the Redart clay, bentonite, and calcium carbonate from a pottery supply shop...the problem for me was finding a place that sells the raw materials and not the already made clay. Instead of buying the calcium carbonate from a vitamin shop, just buy it from the clay shop (it is called "whitening" and is pure calcium carbonate and is way cheaper).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


did you buy the clay from a pottery supply shop online? do they have a website? thanks


----------



## Celtic Aaron

macuser said:


> where did you get the turface from? does it have to be 'all sport pro' or is there an alternative? how deep will your layer of turface and clay be? what did you use to mix the clay with? thanks



I used the same recipe that Doug provided with a small exception...I substituted sodium bentonite for calcium bentonite and just doubled the amount of calcium carbonate. The reason is that calcium bentonite is much harder to find and much more expensive, and the only purpose was for the extra calcium, which I added by doubling the calcium carbonate.

I got the same Turface from John Deer. The calcined clay (Turface) has to be the right size, otherwise it may prevent proper drainage. Since only the top layer of substrate needs the calcium clay, I planned on using about 1-2 inches of each. I will have a better idea when I start to put it together.


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## Celtic Aaron

macuser said:


> did you buy the clay from a pottery supply shop online? do they have a website? thanks



I bought my stuff from Freeform Clay and Supplies in National City (San Diego area). They do have a website and probably ship, but I recommend finding local if possible because shipping could be very expensive due to the weight of the materials.


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## Ed

Turface is very good at wicking water so make sure there is an air gap between the false bottom and the top of the water level or your enclosure may end up being too wet. 

One of the biggest problems with backgrounds is that many people use sodium bentonite clays which are difficult to stabilize long-term as they continue to absorb water so keep that in mind. 

This thread has a lot to recommend for those interested in clay substrates http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html

Some comments 

Ed


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## Celtic Aaron

For anyone interested in making your own clay substrate, there are some tricks that Doug has learned over time that has made this process a little cheaper and easier. Below is some great advice that has helped me with this process. Thank you Doug!

"Absolutely, switch to whitening. It is what I switched to later, when I was running bigger batches. It's dirt cheap. I never shared that, simply out of laziness. You should post that in my thread. Save your friends some cash.
When you press your clay through the mesh, consider:
1) make a frame for the mesh
2) put your drying rack directly under mesh
3) set them up on the floor
4) put on an extremely worn out, tight fitting, tennis shoe
5) grab baseball, to softball-sized lumps of clay and toss them on the rack, roughly spaced out
6) carefully step on them, squashing the clay through the mesh. You can twist and grind your foot, slide your foot, etc, to find the easiest technique for you. You will quickly find your best spacing for step 5. 
I've eliminated making "patties" of the clay, because my legs are strong and can push it all through easily. Yes, pieces can be quite long. After it dries, and you roughly break it apart, many long pieces break up. Others simply help to create voids in the clay for your bugs. 
This takes a world of labor out of the process.
Seriously, cut and paste this onto the end of the clay thread. Tell everyone how you pried my biggest clay making "secret" I discovered, out of me. That's how I did it large scale. I had several "mistake" sliding screen doors. I used Elmer's glue to glue in the spline, for the heavy weight of the clay. Throw the door on a swept and hosed clean driveway. Now your framed "screen press" you made doesn't have to be huge. Mine was only 2' x 2'. Toss screen press on screen door. Press it through with your legs, saving massive labor. Move the screen press to a new spot and keep going. When done, suspend the screen door over cinder blocks. Skip baking and let the sun and breeze "bake" it in the sun for a day or two.
Used to be that a single batch caused my arms much pain the next day. With my new method, I would often do something like 8 batches at a time. Don't try bigger batches. My batch size is perfect for small equipment. I don't think you can do bigger batches without either Popeye arms, or a cement mixer.
Post this all for the people, please. They'll love you for it."


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## Encyclia

I have never made the clay substrate, though I would love to try someday. I do use Turface All Sport Pro a lot and I get it from a John Deere Landscaping shop. There are several here in the Denver area. I would guess those are nation-wide, but I don't know for sure. It was relatively inexpensive and I have liked it as an alternative to ABG so far. Just be sure you use plenty of leaf litter on top.

Mark


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## Rushthezeppelin

So any experiences with using peat to get it slightly acidic? Does it last long? Does tannin leaching from your leaf litter perhaps end up acidifying it a little bit anyway? Figure it wouldn't hurt be as faithful to the rainforests clays as I can.


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## jonjoyce346

Fantastic thread. I've been studying this and trying to source the ingredients for about a week now.

I'm having trouble finding Turface locally, but I've come across a similar looking product at a distributor in my town. Has anyone experimented with Pro's Choice infield conditioner? 

Pro's Choice Pro Red 50 lb. Bag | Sports Advantage

It would really simplify things for me if I could substitute this for Turface.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jon


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## Darrell S

hey jonjoyce346, I found turface at the John deer lanscape supply 12.00 for 40lbs. just like everyone has been suggesting. But the only wrinkle is that here in Texas John deer landscape changed names and has new owners. Here its sold as a soil amendment because of the clay being so bad and poor drainage for a sports field.


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## Darrell S

Pumilo Thank you for all the info and advice you have shared over the yrs. People like you , and Ed and several others have helped me stay on track just by reading and searching. I have a question that I cant seem to resolve and feel confident in doing without making a mess. I want to set up a drip wall with no clay in it. The substrate will be turface with leaf litter topping it. I want to mix in clay pellets and or a layer of clay pellets sprinkled on top. I would not be putting any clay under the drips or running water. The turface will obviously be quite moisture saturated. Will the clay pellets resist liquefying . With you working with clay for several yrs now I figured you could give me advice to discourage the clay from disintegrating . I had planned on using your improved clay recipe. Thank You. Sorry to Hi jack.


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## Judy S

at the risk of getting my head bit off for suggesting it...you may have to PM both or one of t he people that you are looking for an opinion from....they may not catch this thread...


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## Mohlerbear

Darrell S said:


> hey jonjoyce346, I found turface at the John deer lanscape supply 12.00 for 40lbs. just like everyone has been suggesting. But the only wrinkle is that here in Texas John deer landscape changed names and has new owners. Here its sold as a soil amendment because of the clay being so bad and poor drainage for a sports field.



What's the location of this John Deere place Darrell?


Loading bowls and building vivs! Braaap!
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## macuser

jonjoyce346 said:


> Fantastic thread. I've been studying this and trying to source the ingredients for about a week now.
> 
> I'm having trouble finding Turface locally, but I've come across a similar looking product at a distributor in my town. Has anyone experimented with Pro's Choice infield conditioner?
> 
> Pro's Choice Pro Red 50 lb. Bag | Sports Advantage
> 
> It would really simplify things for me if I could substitute this for Turface.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jon


glassboxtropicals has turface for sale
http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/turface-fine-clay-pellets

edit: and he may also sell the clay substrate so you wouldnt need to source the raw materials. i sent him an email to see if he still sells it.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...-clay-substrate-calcium-bearing-material.html


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## Coqui

I ordered a few pounds of ready made clay a week ago from
Glassboxtropicals. He probably can also sell you all the materials needed to make your own. Just email them.


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## jonjoyce346

macuser said:


> glassboxtropicals has turface for sale
> http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/turface-fine-clay-pellets
> 
> edit: and he may also sell the clay substrate so you wouldnt need to source the raw materials. i sent him an email to see if he still sells it.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pl...-clay-substrate-calcium-bearing-material.html


Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

I've actually been looking forward to making my own clay substrate. My work is slow to nonexistent in the winter so I've decided to dedicate this year's off season to the hobby  I've got plenty of time on my hands and I'm going to need a LOT for the build I'm working on. I think it'll be fun to make up a batch or two. 

I haven't had a chance to stop by the local pottery stores, but if I strike out there glassboxtropicals looks like a great option.


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## wcarterh

Ed said:


> As has been mentioned in the past...mixing calcium carbonate or other materials into a substrate that is high in organic materials that release humic acids isn't going to provide the benefit you think it might... The reason is that the particles of calcium carbonate are going to end up coated in insoluble calcium humate salts (one of the reasons black water streams are very low in hardness....)... This is going to render the calcium unavailable for the most part... In clay substrates the calcium held by the clay until it is replaced by another positive ion which is why the calcium is (as I understand it) much more bioavailable.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I've seen this posted in several places. But looking at several white papers on this, it seems to be the opposite. That iron, calcium, mag, etc are actually more bio available at least when concerning plants. Can anyone explain the difference? 

http://www.humates.com/pdf/ORGANICMATTERPettit.pdf
https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Humic Acid TR 2006.pdf


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## harrisbt

Hard to believe this has sat dormant since 2013!

Any updates to clay substrate production and use? Surely we've covered some ground (pun intended) in the last 60 months.


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## themountain

harrisbt said:


> Hard to believe this has sat dormant since 2013!
> 
> Any updates to clay substrate production and use? Surely we've covered some ground (pun intended) in the last 60 months.


 Well...I think its a bit unpractical because it tent to disolve, in the long run, when you use a misting system,but Iam open for suggestions


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## Pumilo

themountain said:


> Well...I think its a bit unpractical because it tent to disolve, in the long run, when you use a misting system,but Iam open for suggestions


Actually, I have feedback from many people who have it still going strong since being set up when this thread was started. That was in Feb of 2011, so this recipe has proven it can last for at least seven years, when used properly. Unfortunately, rampant overmisting is still practiced by too large a portion of this hobby. People still melt plants (overwatered), repeated kill begonias (overwatered with wet feet). People still push 90% plus humidity levels, then think they "fixed it", when they drop it to 85%, which should be the upper end of the spectrum. 
I tried to do a pretty thorough job warning about the hazards of overwatering, and of wicking. It was also pointed out that vivs do not NEED to be as wet when using clay. Clay holds a lot of water, while still draining very well. A clay substrate, much like incorporating larger pieces of cork bark in your viv, suck up water, and release it slowly throughout the day, raising and regulating humidity. In my opinion, all froggers should all be running passive ventilation by now, which also helps keep your clay in good shape.

I'm truly sorry you didn't get the results you were hoping for, after all, I do this to help. I don't make a penny doing these threads. Perhaps you should re-consider user error? So many other are still running it, and swear it has been very helpful in stopping Pumilio Four Month Death Syndrome, also called, I believe, MOODS. If I remember right, MOODS stands for Mysterious Oophaga Offspring Death Syndrome. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that. Anyway, I've heard back from more than a few, that calcium bearing clay substrate, and a UV light, eliminated or reduced occurrences of Pumilio Four Month Death Syndrome. 
Sorry if it feels like a lecture, but this clay has proven to save frogs. That right there makes it worth learning the ins and outs of using it properly.

If somebody does end up saturating and compacting your clay, scoop it out, press it through a screen, and re-use it. If you let it go so bad that it smells like rotton eggs when you scoop it out, throw it away. 

OP, if you ever want to try this again, I'm usually available for questions. Ask away right here, or, I still do my best to return all private messages.

On the other hand, if you try and use clay in old school conditions, you are absolutely right. It would melt and be a very poor choice. In old school conditions and techniques, use an old school substrate.


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## jimmy rustles

has anybody tried working shell grit into their substrate for a steady calcium supply for feeders and frogs?


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## Pumilo

jimmy rustles said:


> has anybody tried working shell grit into their substrate for a steady calcium supply for feeders and frogs?


It would be nice if it were that easy. Alas, if you want to reap the benefits of clay, only clay will suffice. A clay substrate allows calcium to be mobile, and able to transfer to your animals. Traditional substrates bind calcium and salts, selfishly keeping any calcium you add, unavailable to their frogs.

Shell grit, like oyster shell grit, for chickens? I'm all too familiar with shell grit, having used it for years in the making of Aragocrete, homemade coral reef rocks. The sharp edges tore the crap out of my hands when we molded that stuff. If you are talking oyster shell grit, not in my frogroom! One of the ways frogs get calcium from clay, is by accidental ingestion of tiny bits. Stirring that stuff was like stirring a pot of razor blades. Doesn't seem like something I want my frogs snacking on.

Oyster shell grit has also been considered for use in coral reef tank calcium reactors. It is not recommended as the phosphate levels are off the charts. It is also the slowest "melting" form of calcium tried for calcium reactors. An extremely slow to break down calcium is probably not the best choice.

Calcium bearing clay substrates, mine, or anyone's for that matter, all have one thing in common. The addition of calcium carbonate in a finely ground, easily released and easily absorbed by your frogs, powder. 
Again, even if you use calcium carbonate, it's not helpful in a traditional, organic style, substrate. Dirt, soil, peat, sphagnum, coco, etc, all want to bind calcium. Clay, on the other hand, freely shares it's calcium.


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## CMH80

is it now possible to buy the clay pellets or mix anywhere, rather than make it? What is the difference between these and clay bio-balls? Or crushed clay pots or cat litter?


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## kblack3

The calcium levels make it significantly different but if you read up you will get all of the data. I purchased mine from glass box tropicals as I didn’t have the time to create it myself. Hope that helps. 


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## Pumilo

CMH80 said:


> is it now possible to buy the clay pellets or mix anywhere, rather than make it? What is the difference between these and clay bio-balls? Or crushed clay pots or cat litter?


Clay bio balls are expanded with heat and pressure to make them light and porous. They are fully fired, so they cannot readily release minerals. Besides, they are not "hopped up" with calcium. They are rock hard. A clay substrate is NOT fired...not at all. It stays pliable, and able to release the calcium within. 

Cat litter is sodium bentonite, the most unstable clay known. It expands and contracts more than any other clay. Even in the same brand, one bag may be fully fired, and the next may dissolve in water. Kitty litter has zero calcium added to it. Kitty litter is an excellent product for, well, cats to s&$t in.

Crushed clay pots would be fully fired, and unable to release the calcium that isn't in it anyway. Lots of great sharp edges for your poor froggies though.

There is but one way to get a proper calcium bearing clay substrate without making it yourself. Hire someone to make it for you. 
Mike Rizzo, at Glass Box Tropicals, makes and sells clay substrate using my exact recipe, with my blessing. He can get you the good stuff with no shortcuts or replacements.


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## CMH80

Thank you for explaining. It is unlikely I could get any substrate shipped to Canada I would think.


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## themountain

Pumilo said:


> Cat litter is sodium bentonite, the most unstable clay known........ Kitty litter has zero calcium added to it.


 Well ..there is calcium bentonite..I guess that has it in abundance though. So you mix a little in to your kitty stuff and you are golden.


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## Ed

CMH80 said:


> Thank you for explaining. It is unlikely I could get any substrate shipped to Canada I would think.


If you have schools with baseball fields then you have a product like turface in use... Basically what you want to ask for is infield conditioner. If you check around there is going to be someone carrying it for maintenance of baseball fields (and for the tracks around school football fields). You might have to buy 50 lbs of it at one shot but that is about what fits into a large plastic tote so it can be easily stored. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo

themountain said:


> Well ..there is calcium bentonite..I guess that has it in abundance though. So you mix a little in to your kitty stuff and you are golden.


No, you are not. Kitty litter is different batch to batch. It is either too hard, in which case your added calcium would not be mixed in with any consistency. It would most likely be rinsed through the substrate, down to the false bottom. There could also be pockets left behind where the concentration is much too high. Hypercalcemia could kill your frogs faster than the lack of calcium. 

On the other hand, you may get a kitty litter that is not too hard. Of course then you have a substrate based on the most unstable form of clay known. It swells massively with water, and gets horribly soupy. In this state your pellets lose all form, and it becomes a lake of "quickmud". 

Sodium bentonite "clay" is so crappy, that even pottery shops do not use it as a clay. People that work with clay, only use it as a glaze. 
Sodium bentonite is so crappy, it is responsible for many millions of dollars of damage to residential basements and foundations. It absorbs so much water that it swells, crushing a thick, concrete, basement wall like a college student on spring break treats an empty beer can.
Sodium bentonite is so crappy, cats crap in it!

No matter what you do with it, sodium bentonite can not stand up to a redart based clay substrate.


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## goncalo

I am trying to make my first calcium clay and im in Europe so cant find most stuff of the receipt at least same brand.
If anyone can help me would appreciate.

I can find red clay but dont know if its the same as redart powdered clay.

I can find both sodium and calcium bentonite clay but from cosmetic sellers, should this be ok ?

Can i use calcium carbonate used for reptiles ? Should be the same i guess.

Thanks =)


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## Matty1c3

I recently made the clay substrate however I used an extruder to make the clay pieces. There were 2 attachments I used. The first made long flat pieces that were easy to break into pieces about the size of 1/2 of a Hershey bar section. The second attachment made spaghetti like pieces that were easy to break into a range of lengths. My question is... which do you think would be most beneficial? I believe it would be the larger chunks for irregular surface area and cracks/crevices but I attached a few pics to see what you guys think. Thanks! 

Large pieces 











Spaghetti pieces 










Mix


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## Orbela

Spaghetti pieces will have surface but the mix seems better because of surface but also let air penetration


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## ambilobe

Does anyone sell the clay premade, or is willing to sell some? 
I need enough to make about 8 , 8oz springtail cultures. 
Please post a link or DM me if you would sell directly. Thanks 

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## athiker04

I'd like to try to revive this as I'm thinking about making a batch for a couple of new vivs that I will likely use for obligates. I'm not sure if the main contributors are still active on this forum but I'd love the hear from anyone with knowledge on the subject.

My main question, not being a biochemist: Is it or is it not recommended to mix peat or other organics in with the clay. I notice that it's in the initial recipe but that there are several mentions of organic materials having the effect of binding up the calcium and rendering the clay less useful.

Thanks for any insight.


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## Organics

athiker04 said:


> I'd like to try to revive this as I'm thinking about making a batch for a couple of new vivs that I will likely use for obligates. I'm not sure if the main contributors are still active on this forum but I'd love the hear from anyone with knowledge on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> My main question, not being a biochemist: Is it or is it not recommended to mix peat or other organics in with the clay. I notice that it's in the initial recipe but that there are several mentions of organic materials having the effect of binding up the calcium and rendering the clay less useful.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for any insight.




The consensus seems to be its fine at low quantities. One of the OG clay guys had posted he keeps it under 5%. From my understanding part of the point of using organics is they will decompose and add more surface area(voids on the exterior creating an uneven surface). I suspect that you could forgo the use of it without any issues, I only just started using substrate so only time will tell. 

Also there is another thread that may have your answer. 

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html


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## Organics

I had a question that was only partially answered. So I wanted to post what I discovered making this substrate. The question was what is the stability of the substrate dry(in reference to storing for later use). It is brittle enough to break in your hands with some force but strong enough to be stored in large amounts(I had ten pounds in a box without issues). Wanted to post this for anyone who may read this thread in the future, but maybe alone in that question seeing as I never saw it asked. 

Also other notes, 

I see most people were using hardware cloth but I found an alternative product that was located directly behind the hardware cloth. Holes seemed to be a hair or two over 1/4”. Comes pre-framed but I would recommend elevating one side with blocks of wood. 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Constru...d-Steel-Flat-Screen-Vent-SCV168-1-8/310198652

Also I would recommend only dry mixing one batch at a time, I did two and had to go back and mix again due too some being unmixed in bottom “corners” of the bucket. Wet mixing I would only do half a batch at a time. This stuff is thicc.




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## gex23

Probably a very amusing question - but what measurement is a 'quart' in new (metric) money?


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## Pumilo

athiker04 said:


> I'd like to try to revive this as I'm thinking about making a batch for a couple of new vivs that I will likely use for obligates. I'm not sure if the main contributors are still active on this forum but I'd love the hear from anyone with knowledge on the subject.
> 
> My main question, not being a biochemist: Is it or is it not recommended to mix peat or other organics in with the clay. I notice that it's in the initial recipe but that there are several mentions of organic materials having the effect of binding up the calcium and rendering the clay less useful.
> 
> Thanks for any insight.


You can't really revive this. It never died. Calcium Bearing Clay Substrates are alive and well. It's in the back areas of at least 2 zoos in the US. It's being used in Canada, and across the pond. It's latest use in the culturing of springtails and isopods.

Yes, using large amounts of organics will bind up the calcium. Small amounts decompose over time, leaving an internal "honeycomb" structure to the clay. The warning about organics and clay conflicting with one another, come from people misusing clay. It does NOT help ABG or other substrates, to add clay powder or calcium powder to it. See, that is just ruined organics, with clay goop mucking up the place and nullifying ABG's excellent drainage potential. If you want ABG mix, use it as it was designed to be used. I'm pretty sure the developers of ABG mix would be horrified to hear about people mixing clay into it. ABG is all about the drainage. You nullify it if you add clay. Plus, you nullify the clay because it's calcium is now bound to organics.

Putting 2 good things together does not always create Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. Sometimes it just makes a nasty mess that nobody wants any part of.


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## Pumilo

Matty1c3 said:


> I recently made the clay substrate however I used an extruder to make the clay pieces. There were 2 attachments I used. The first made long flat pieces that were easy to break into pieces about the size of 1/2 of a Hershey bar section. The second attachment made spaghetti like pieces that were easy to break into a range of lengths. My question is... which do you think would be most beneficial? I believe it would be the larger chunks for irregular surface area and cracks/crevices but I attached a few pics to see what you guys think. Thanks!
> 
> Large pieces
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spaghetti pieces
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mix


I like the mix.


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## Gribit

Really cool. How are the 2011 clay substrates holding up 10 years later?


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## John J M

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet or has discovered it either as I haven't read through the entire post, which is excellent btw, but calcium bentonite clay is also available through Laguna Clay. I'm going to pick up 400 lbs tomorrow in Orlando. You just have to ask them for calcium bentonite. It's also available in 50 pound bags. Also if you want a cheap source of calcium carbonate you can get that at Laguna as well. It's a whitening agent for clay. And I've also added Plaster of Paris to my mix which is gypsum, calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate and crystalline silica. I don't use that much be a little sulfate should be good for plants and a little silica shouldn't hurt anything especially when moist and part of the clay which already contains a lot of silica anyway. Thanks for sharing this great information. If anyone wants to know Lagunas price on calcium bentonite just ask and I'll post it but it was maybe 3 x the price of sodium bentonite. I'm having a hard time finding non-bioactive Aragonite sand. Almost everyone is selling in as bioactive packaged wet/moist in seawater. Don't really want saltwater sand and it's so fine that it's hard to rinse properly without losing sand. Any suggestions or brands that don't have salt? I can't find the Old Castle Aragonite play sand around here. And I've used the vinegar test on some sands that looked like Aragonite but no foaming.


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## Organics

John J M said:


> Don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet or has discovered it either as I haven't read through the entire post, which is excellent btw, but calcium bentonite clay is also available through Laguna Clay. I'm going to pick up 400 lbs tomorrow in Orlando. You just have to ask them for calcium bentonite. It's also available in 50 pound bags. Also if you want a cheap source of calcium carbonate you can get that at Laguna as well. It's a whitening agent for clay. And I've also added Plaster of Paris to my mix which is gypsum, calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate and crystalline silica. I don't use that much be a little sulfate should be good for plants and a little silica shouldn't hurt anything especially when moist and part of the clay which already contains a lot of silica anyway. Thanks for sharing this great information. If anyone wants to know Lagunas price on calcium bentonite just ask and I'll post it but it was maybe 3 x the price of sodium bentonite. I'm having a hard time finding non-bioactive Aragonite sand. Almost everyone is selling in as bioactive packaged wet/moist in seawater. Don't really want saltwater sand and it's so fine that it's hard to rinse properly without losing sand. Any suggestions or brands that don't have salt? I can't find the Old Castle Aragonite play sand around here. And I've used the vinegar test on some sands that looked like Aragonite but no foaming.


They are my go to source here in Los Angeles, staff is very helpful as well.


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## bbrock

Simply amazing! I haven't been active on the forums for over 10 years but last night I was on the Saurian Enterprise website and noticed Patrick was selling springtails cultured on clay. Naturally that piqued my interest and when Patrick's description pointed me to Doug/Pumilio and the forum, I followed the breadcrumbs back to find this thread still getting action after a decade! Really 13 years if you count the ultimate clay thread that preceded, and well over 15 if you count the old Frognet convos before. LONG before "bio-active" was a term. For those who don't know me (and I doubt many of you do) I'm probably the "OG clay guy" referenced a few posts above. Hilarious.  Hats off to Doug for leading the charge here and all of you for continuing to experiment, innovate, and improve. I'm for sure switching my springtails to clay!

Anyway, since this topic is still going, I hadn't thought much about clay substrate in recent years so figured I would post an update on one of the first clay-based vivaria that has now been running with this substrate for 15 years. A bit of background on the viv. I built it in 1999 to house a group of Nicaraguan blue jeans I received in January 2000. It initially had a kitty litter substrate and the usual natural wood furnishings. After swapping out the DIY rain system I built for a more standard misting setup and dialing it in, the frogs started producing offspring. Calcium deficiency was an issue that went away after adding UVB to the setup. By 2006, the organic structures had decomposed into an unaesthetic heap so a renovation was in order. That included adding a fake concrete buttress stump (there is an ancient thread on that somewhere) a PVC pipe supported horizontal branch, replacing the top with Solacryl to allow better ventilation of heat from the lights (they were bare bulb inside the viv before), and, of course, the Redart clay-based substrate. I believe that original recipe is in the ultimate clay thread.

Maintenance in the 15 years since has been minimal since the only things that can decompose in the viv are things I want to decompose. The viv itself hasn't changed much and many of the plants are the same ones planted in 1999. The viv has experience long periods of neglect where I did nothing but toss undusted cultures of ff into the viv and top off the misting reservoir - often after letting it go dry for way too long. The frogs just continued to chug along despite my poor husbandry and produce offspring. By fall of 2020, the 20+ year old frogs were dwindling in number and no longer reproducing so I obtain another group of more recent Nicuraguan imports from Bill at InSitu on incredibly generous terms. They arrived in Sept. 2020 and by Jan. 2021 the first new froglet in several years appeared.

Here's how it looks as of this morning. This is typical of how I like to maintain the leaf litter The base litter is sea grape leaves and I just toss in interesting leaves that drop or are clipped off my other plants.










And when I lifted the carpet to peak underneath, this was the first thing I found, a half pinky nailed-sized froglet. Too bad the camera focused on everything BUT the interesting part.









The second thing I noticed was the writhing movement of microfauna scurrying for cover. There are springtails (hard to see because they take on the color of the substrate rather than the usual white we see), some kind of tiny beetle, an unidentified mite, some kind of nematode (I think) that is about 1.5mm long, and some small skinny earthworms. I haven't seen any isopods. They were probably lost due to my neglecting to keep the leaf litter stocked. A few things to note in this next pic: 1) Surface roughness. there are lots of fissures and lumps from years of microfauna workings. It isn't quite the pseudosand structure I would like, but it drains well. If you poke a finger in it, it's like poking into pottery clay so no stable aggregates have formed, but it has created a nice structure over time. 2) Root network. Notice the roots grow "on", rather than "in" the soil. That's how it works in the tropics too. The action is in that boundary between decomposing detritus and the soil surface. 3) No humus. Over 15 years there has been at least a large lawn bag full of litter dumped on the surface and more likely closer to two bags worth. Yet, NO humus layer has developed. Again, like in much of the wet tropics. Litter decomposes so completely it doesn't leave behind any stable organic layer. The charcoal you see "escaped" from springtail cultures added recently before I realized there was a healthy population still going in the soil. I like the look and will probably add it to the next clay substrate viv I build.










Not substrate related, but here area a couple shots of the fake buttress after 15 years. Looks better than the day it was installed.



















And the PVC "branch." That Vriesia is over 20 years old.










And a better shot of that little froglet. I probably should pick out that perlite that escaped from a transplant, but that would require work.










Overall I'm thrilled with how this has performed and how it looks. Doug and the rest of you have improved on this early effort and I look forward reading in more detail what you've all come up with. I'm really intrigued by the idea of Plaster of Paris as an additive John J M mentioned. Can that be used to form stable pseudo sand aggregates? I think the perfect substrate would squeeze tight like clay when moist (not wet), but break apart more like loam when pinched. Has anyone achieve texture Nirvana yet?

Last thing. My original vivs I set up with kitty litter in 1996 are still going. I've moved the frogs out and will be tearing them down soon to make room for a mega-viv, but the substrate seems as good today as when it was new.

I hope somebody enjoys this blast from the past.


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## Chris S

@bbrock thanks for the detailed follow up after so long. Many of us newer to the hobby take some of the mistakes and ideas you had for granted. Some is now standard practice too!


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## Scott

Nice to see you here Brent.

s


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## John J M

@bbrock I don't imagine that plaster of Paris can harden if kept wet, so it shouldn't stabilize. I was using it more for its chemical make up. A lot of additional Ca plus gypsum tends to slightly acidify alkaline soil back to approximately neutral pH, which clay can sometimes cause or if lime stone is contained in it. The sulfate will do that and sulfate is also needed for healthy plant growth. I don't know much about tropical soil but I would assume that it tends to be slightly acidic plus calcium carbonate is a very strong alkaline buffer with pH around 8.4 I believe so I figured that the gypsum would counter some of that and bring the clay back towards neutral and allow organic decomposition acidity the rest of the way. Gypsum is also used to open up clay soils and help with drainage but I doubt that the plaster will help much with that in vivariums nor is drainage much of a problem.


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## bbrock

Hey @Scott , how you been buddy?

@John J M Thanks for the explanation. That's pretty much what I expected and it makes sense. What I should have asked is what kind of pore spaces are people seeing with derivatives of @Pumilio 's recipe after they've been in services for a few years with heavy misting? The thinking behind adding sugar and corn starch to the mix was to promote bacterial films and fungal hyphal net formation to promote polymer and glomalin secretions to glue clay particles together to form stable aggregates that would maintain pore spaces through the profile. The cubing, extruding, or drying and crumbling was intended to mechanically create aggregates. I made my mix before the sugar and starch innovation so my aggregates were temporary and broke down after a few years of misting. I dropped out of the discussion before seeing results of the sugar additives so I'm curious how it has worked.

My substrate still drains very well although I admit it is a bit of a mystery why. However, since the aggregates have broken down and pore spaces have collapsed, there is a LOT of lost potential for increased biological activity and sustaining a large refugia of soil microfauna. Of course, there is a lot more going on in our substrates than just providing calcium storage and the macro structure is an important part of it. Anyone have any pics of their substrate profiles that show pore structure after they have "weathered" for awhile?


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## John J M

I've got to confess that I've not been brave enough to use clay as planting substrate. Instead what I've been doing is making some small ponds in my vivariums using small to medium size open cell polyurethane foam, the type that's used as sponge filters for fish and gluing it to the bottom glass of the vivarium to create a wall with a slope to it that's about 3" high. Then using it as a barrier for my LECA pellets drainage layer and cutting my screen around the edge to open the pond area. This way the pond is in communication with the water in the drainage layer should I need to remove excess water. I then coat the foam with the clay leaving out the sugar/starch but including sphagnum and creating a clay bottom of about 1". This clay bottom serves as a substrate for aquatic plants and java moss with a few river stones and some oak leave litter. I find the frogs often soaking in the clay mud banks perhaps absorbing Ca but certainly moisture. And I hope that it becomes a springtail environment. Perhaps even a frog spawning pool when they're old enough. The moss seems to like this clay bottom and does grow up the bank. I'll take some pictures to illustrate.i find plant roots do grow into the foam as well.









This picture shows how I place and glue the open cell polyurethane foam to the bottom of the vivarium. The tape is temporary to hold the shape while the silicone glue cures. Notice that the flat side of the foam faces outward so as to retain the LECA pellets to the top edge of the pool. I cut little wedges of foam to remove so the the foam isn't compressed when bent to form the curve. Any spaces created by these wedges are filled with clay and there's a 45 degree angle cut in the last 1 to 2 inches of the top of the foam to create a slope in the bank. I start with a 2" x 4" x 6' strip of foam an mark 1" down on each side and then cut the foam on and angle between these 2 marks which makes 2 strips that are 1" pond side x 3" LECA side x 2" thick from inside to outside so the bank angle is about 60 degrees. The 1" straight vertical bottom side of the pool foam gets filled with at least 1" of clay for the bottom. And the LECA pellet side allows for retention of 3" drainage layer level.

The thumbnail shows the foam in cross section with the space in between 2 ponds that will be filled with LECA to the top roughly 3". The next thumbnail will show a finished pond with 3 out of 5 inhabitants just happened to be enjoying a soak.


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## fredk

does anyone have a Canadian source for calcium bentonite? I checked a local clay supplier, but they do not. The only thing I've found is Koi clay, but all the online suppliers are out.


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## John J M

fredk said:


> does anyone have a Canadian source for calcium bentonite? I checked a local clay supplier, but they do not. The only thing I've found is Koi clay, but all the online suppliers are out.


Who do you use currently for your red art clay and did you ask them about calcium bentonite? I believe I read that clumping kitty litter contains 50% calcium bentonite and usually you can get pure calcium bentonite in the cosmetics department of stores but 1 pound will cost about $10 but since it's only 1/9 the total you can make a little over 9 pounds total from on pound.


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## fredk

I don't currently use clay. There is a local pottery supplier, but they do not list anything as calcium bentonite.

https://psh.ca/pages/pottery-raw-materials


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## Organics

fredk said:


> does anyone have a Canadian source for calcium bentonite? I checked a local clay supplier, but they do not. The only thing I've found is Koi clay, but all the online suppliers are out.





Amazon.com










Heritage Store Ancient Healing Clay - 16oz


Read reviews and buy Heritage Store Ancient Healing Clay - 16oz at Target. Choose from contactless Same Day Delivery, Drive Up and more.




www.target.com






https://www.walmart.com/search?q=calcium%20bentonite%20clay&typeahead=calcium%20ben


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## bbrock

Personally, I'm not sure what the purpose of the bentonite is and am hoping Doug could jump on to explain. Obviously, calcium bentonite adds calcium, but as he explains way back on page 1 or 2, calcium carbonate is being added anyway. One of the main commercial uses of bentonite is for pond linings because the stuff is almost as impermeable to water as a rubber liner. The texture is horrible for building a substrate with pore spaces. Bentonite would boost the cation exchange capacity because redart clay is kaolonite clay with iron oxide. Kaolinte has a low CEC compared to other clays but it is still pretty good.

All we are doing here is creating a chemical sponge by using clay, and then filling that sponge with calcium ions. A redart clay and calcium carbonate blend should fit that bill nicely. Everything else should be toward creating the desired testure IMO. BTW, the reason I started with redart clay all those years ago was almost entirely for the look! Tropical rain forest soils tend to be well weathered kaolonite clays with high iron oxide content - which is what redart clay is. It seemed like a good place to start with replicating the substrates many dart frogs are in contact with in the wild. In truth, you could dose any high clay content substrate with calcium and get the mineral benefits. Many high clay soils will provide the benefit without calcium dosing. Any high clay soil from an area with hard water or limestone bedrock is likely already saturated with CaCO3 Matt Mirabelo took it a step further and just dosed a clay loam (I think) soil with iron oxide to turn it red. IMO, it looks even more like tropical soils because it has aggregates forming the 'crumb' texture that has so far eluded me.

I want to start experimenting with some new recipes to improve soil texture and possibly even eliminate the need to run the stuff through a mesh, but I'd really like to see and hear how aggregates have held up with Doug-based mixes over time first.


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## fredk

Thanks for the detailed response Brent. I think the bentonite is used to give the clay more plasticity. To hold it together better.

What would happen if you were to fill the space between the dried clay cubes with a coarse beach sand (or well washed construction sand)? Would the clay and sand blend long term, or would the sand maintain the drainage channels between the clay?

If it blends over time, would that give you the soil texture you are looking for?

In the tropics, does water drain through the laterite soil or does it run along the surface? I always wondered about this last one.


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## bbrock

fredk said:


> Thanks for the detailed response Brent. I think the bentonite is used to give the clay more plasticity. To hold it together better.


Hmm. Redart is very plastic by itself which is why it makes a good pottery clay. Bentonite is a lot more slippery though so I could see it making it easier to push the mix through a mesh which I've never tried to do. The stuff is like axle grease when it is wet so one of the least pleasant substances I've worked with. In fact, one of its many uses is as a lubricant. 

Bentonite does have about 5-10X higher CEC than kaolinite through so it makes a much more efficient calcium sponge than redart alone. However, we are all just guessing about the nutritional benefits of clay soils and even and what levels of calcium adsorption are needed for any therapeutic benefit it provides. I think anecdotal evidence suggests there is something positive going on here, but we don't know if really supercharging the CEC is necessary to get the benefit. Or conversely, if it is possible to overdo it. I'm not saying bentonite is bad, it may have an important benefit, but it is a royal PITA to work with and counterproductive to some of the other properties. It's although worth mentioning that is wasn't part of the mix in my viv, and I was the first to report no more problems rearing pumilio froglets to adulthood after adding UVB and clay soil. I still couldn't say which is more important.



> What would happen if you were to fill the space between the dried clay cubes with a coarse beach sand (or well washed construction sand)? Would the clay and sand blend long term, or would the sand maintain the drainage channels between the clay?
> 
> If it blends over time, would that give you the soil texture you are looking for?


I've considered that, but I think over time the clay would just was into the sand and fill the cavities. Then you'd have something more like concrete. In nature, fungi and bacteria secrete "glues" that bind small soil particles together into larger aggregates that lets the soil maintain an open texture. When I say 'pseudo sand' I'm talking about clay particles that are glued together into larger sand size aggregates. The soil is still clay and chemically behaves like clay, but the physical structure allows air and water to flow through it more like sand. The theory behind adding sugar and starch and then clumping or the media to force (temporarily) an open physical structure. We hoped the sugar and starch would supercharge growth of bacteria and fungi so they would 'glue' that hard-won physical structure in place so they didn't just dissolve into the voids over time.

I think using charcoal instead of sand in the mix could provide some additional benefits, but wouldn't solve the texture puzzle. What I've been thinking about lately is mixing corn cob kitty litter into the dry ingrededients (maybe as much as 50%) and forget about wetting, meshing, and drying. Just place the dry ingredients in the viv and mist it until is wetted. The thinking here is that the corn cob would keep the clay from dissolving into the voids, but over time, bacteria and fungi would break down the organic cob to leave open pores. Adding that much carbon would create one helluva fungal growth and likely look like ass for awhile, but could also build a whopper of a springtail population. However, it might be a solution looking for a problem if the sugar and starch addition in Doug's recipe has been effective in stabilizing that open structure. It could also be a giant flop.



> In the tropics, does water drain through the laterite soil or does it run along the surface? I always wondered about this last one.


Of course we should be careful about over generalizing what "tropical soil" does but it does both. Compared to the fluffy soils we typically find in temperate forests and grasslands, these tropical soils are compacted crap and infiltration rates are nothing compared to rich organic soils. But they are open enough that water does infiltrate the soil (and remember there is a LOT of water to go around in those forests (at least for now). Also, there is an abundance of ants, termites and other critters constantly tunneling through. With the help of those microbial glues, they stay open longer. That creates a LOT more volume for subterranean arthropods to occupy. That's where organic substrates like ABG have clay substrates beat hands down, but if we can solve the texture problem, we'll be adding a lot more function to our clay substrates.


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## Fahad

I remember you from the old Frognet days, @bbrock , good to see you posting. And about clay (again) no less.


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## John J M

Gardening on tropical clay soil


Clay soils in the tropics are not the ideal medium for plant growth, because clay particles stick together to impede penetration of water an...




tropicalhorticulture.blogspot.com





I found this method for improvement of tropical clay soil for growing plants. Not sure if this idea is to bake it into a LECA like structure or just a hard drying process with wood charcoal added but perhaps with some experimentation a similar method can be accomplished. I read somewhere else that the fine powder is discarded perhaps because it reverts to a sticky clay substance. I also know that gypsum can be used to improve drainage in some clay soils but I'm not sure which clay soils are improved with gypsum. Another solution might be to just mix in a few clay chunks or a small amount of powder into ABG just to improve the mineral and Fe content.

Perhaps this article will provide the reason for how it works. Heating clay may cause it to expand permanently changing its structure. So perhaps passing the clay through a fine screen and heating it in an oven while still full of pores will accomplish what bbroch is trying to achieve. As for temperature I remember from my toxicology days that pyrolysis of wood occurs at 440 degrees F. So this may be the minimum temperature. Perhaps for an hour or two. This might cause permanent chucks of permanently porous clay that will still absorb moisture but will still drain readily and never clump together.









Clay soil burning


Hello :-) I have a small piece of land. A small 4 meter x 4 meter part of it is of the best clay soil, perhaps the best in the world for making pottery: hard as a rock when dry and like chewing gum when wet. When dry that soil laughs at my pickaxe and when wet it glues my pickaxe to the soil...




www.houzz.com


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## bbrock

Yep, high clay content soil is horrible for growing plants, and yet, the tropics are dominated by weathered, nutrient poor clay soils and produce some of the lushest plant growth on the planet despite the poor soil. Most of the roots are on, or just below the soil surface where they can better compete for the limited nutrients available rather than deep. 

What led me to start experimenting with clay in the first place was a desire to more accurately replicate the environments our frogs live in. Also, I'm lazy and it didn't make sense to me to load a warm, wet, and humid vivarium with light and rich organic soil that would supercharge plant growth that quickly overruns the vivarium and requires constant trimming. On top of that, after 5 years or so the organic soil is used up and broken down, and needs to be replaced. I also believe that environmental nutrition is an overlooked aspect of husbandry. By that I mean nutrients that get into our frog's systems other than through what we purposely feed them. That can include things like UVB but also nutrients absorbed through the skin; and incidentally ingested either sticking to tongues or to prey, or carried in the gut of prey.

With all that in mind, a clay substrate was an obvious starting point. Red oxidized clay looks like typical tropical rainforest soils and has the benefit of high CEC that can store and release significant amounts of important minerals like Ca, Mg, K, and Na. Substrates our frogs live on the wild do the same and likely play important roles in the overall nutritional profile of the animals. What's missing in these replicated soils is the texture that builds in tropical soils of millions of years of weathering and biological activity. Make no mistake, that texture is nothing like the deep organic rich loams found in the farm belts of the world. It is still crappy soil from a horticultural perspective. My interest in the texture isn't to make it better for plant growth, but rather to create a deep labyrinth of fissures and pores where a diversity of soil microfauna can live. Burning or firing clay does improve texture for growing plants, but it also destroys CEC so fired clay doesn't hold minerals the way raw clay does so for me, it diverges from my goal to better replicate wild environments (Fire-Induced Changes in Soil and Implications on Soil Sorption Capacity and Remediation Methods).

That said, I do think some combination of fired and unfired clay could provide a compromise. The challenge remains that anytime you introduce unstabilized powdered clay into a system with a lot of water percolating through it, the raw clay is going to tend wash into the pores over time at least until the clay matrix takes a "set." That could be as simple as figuring out the right ratio of fired and unfired to optimize raw clay content and porosity.


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## Ed

The usage of calcium bentonite was an offshoot of people using clumping kitty litters as substrate and structures. 

I used calcium bentonite instead of calcium carbonate in some red art clay mixtures as it gave a more even consistency when mixed. I added some coco peat as an organic using a slurry to get even mixture. I filter the slurry through a couple of sheets of news paper over a screen and let it dry until I can run it through a screen and let that dry. I have a tank I set up about ten years ago that is still working. 
These days I'm lazy and pretty much use straight Turface covered with leaflitter.

Ed


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## bbrock

Ed!!! You're alive! You have no idea how good it is to hear from you. That makes sense for bentonite. As a plasticizer, I can't think of anything that would be better. Clearly not a critical component for a successful substrate and I wouldn't personally knock myself out or spend a bunch of $ on it, but handy for tailoring to desired characteristics.

Don't be a stranger buddy!


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## Ed

bbrock said:


> Ed!!! You're alive! You have no idea how good it is to hear from you. That makes sense for bentonite. As a plasticizer, I can't think of anything that would be better. Clearly not a critical component for a successful substrate and I wouldn't personally knock myself out or spend a bunch of $ on it, but handy for tailoring to desired characteristics.
> 
> Don't be a stranger buddy!


You'll hear from me again soon.


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## thedudeabides

I was planning on making some clay for backgrounds and springtail cultures. The calcium bentonite I was seeing was ungodly expensive (even for the non-food grade) unless you bought it by the ton. Anyone have a good cheap source?


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep

thedudeabides said:


> I was planning on making some clay for backgrounds and springtail cultures. The calcium bentonite I was seeing was ungodly expensive (even for the non-food grade) unless you bought it by the ton. Anyone have a good cheap source?


Bentonite, 1 lb.

https://www.bulkapothecary.com/raw-ingredients/clays/bentonite-clay/?sku=I-009-clay-3&gclid=CjwKCAiA_omPBhBBEiwAcg7smdJ4JLGziSu-Mzdd9OqF4Lrgqor1FLb_jW9XqdF-IaV-aCefDKiQohoCC8cQAvD_BwE

Never purchased from these company's before but here it what I found.


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## fredk

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Bentonite, 1 lb.
> 
> https://www.bulkapothecary.com/raw-ingredients/clays/bentonite-clay/?sku=I-009-clay-3&gclid=CjwKCAiA_omPBhBBEiwAcg7smdJ4JLGziSu-Mzdd9OqF4Lrgqor1FLb_jW9XqdF-IaV-aCefDKiQohoCC8cQAvD_BwE
> 
> Never purchased from these company's before but here it what I found.


It does not specify if this is calcium bentonite or sodium bentonite. I can get sodium bentonite at a local pottery supply store for cheap, but they do not carry calcium bentonite.


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## thedudeabides

fredk said:


> It does not specify if this is calcium bentonite or sodium bentonite. I can get sodium bentonite at a local pottery supply store for cheap, but they do not carry calcium bentonite.


If it doesn't specify you can bet it's sodium.


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## fredk

thedudeabides said:


> If it doesn't specify you can bet it's sodium.


That is what I suspect. Sodium bentonite seems to be a lot more common.

I'm pretty sure there are good online sources for calcium bentonite in the US. I've not been able to find a similar source in Canada.


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## Imatreewaterme

I am looking to make some of this substrate myself since my next species will be Pumilio.

Does anyone know the weight to volume ratio on the powder clays?

Ricky


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## Scott

Everything is provided in volume - just stick with that?


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## Imatreewaterme

Scott said:


> Everything is provided in volume - just stick with that?


Yea, but it is sold by the lb. so I kind of want to order the correct ratio on the ingredients. It its unknown I guess I'll just get a few lbs of each.

Ricky


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## Scott

You're going to end up with extra. It's a given.


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## Bgriff

I have spent the last hour or so reading this entire thread. First i am blow away that a thread over a decade is still somewhat active. Second the knowledge from some of the OG guys is awesome. 

I have a few questions.

With this substrate, should leaf litter still be used? 
If so, covering part of the clay or all of it?

second question- What misting schedule is everyone using with this substrate? I ask because I’m sure over-misting could cause some compaction issues with this substrate. 

Can anyone advise?
Thanks everyone!


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## Socratic Monologue

Yes, leaf litter should still be used. There are some claims made that some clay should be left exposed so frogs can belly drink from the clay.

Regular misting schedule is fine IME. If the substrate in a viv calls for a different misting schedule than is the ideal one for the frogs, then what one has is a "substrate viv" and probably shouldn't cohabitate frogs in it and rather concentrate on providing optimal conditions for the thriving of the substrate. 😏

IMO, clay substrates are good for raising the froglets of egg feeding species, and a possible overcomplication for the care of other species. Personally, I wouldn't use clay substrate without good specific reason to do so (I have three vivs with clay substrate, for reference, though more without).


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## Bgriff

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, leaf litter should still be used. There are some claims made that some clay should be left exposed so frogs can belly drink from the clay.
> 
> Regular misting schedule is fine IME. If the substrate in a viv calls for a different misting schedule than is the ideal one for the frogs, then what one has is a "substrate viv" and probably shouldn't cohabitate frogs in it and rather concentrate on providing optimal conditions for the thriving of the substrate. 😏
> 
> IMO, clay substrates are good for raising the froglets of egg feeding species, and a possible overcomplication for the care of other species. Personally, I wouldn't use clay substrate without good specific reason to do so (I have three vivs with clay substrate, for reference, though more without).


Thanks!


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