# API general cure (metronidazole and praziquantel) for frogs?



## Dillon Wascher (Jul 26, 2011)

This is a fish medication, but I wondered if it could be used for frogs as well. My amazon milk frog has what I think is a bacterial infection, and I've ordered baytril, but it will take a week or two to get here. Thus, I would like to treat him with another antibiotic in the meantime. I know metronidazole is somewhat popular, but without a prescription or buying it online (in which case I would have to deal with international shipping again, if you know what I mean ) the only place I could find it is the local fish store, in the medication mentioned above. My only concern is that it contains, for every 250 mg of metronidazole, 75 mg of praziquantel, which I understand to be an anti-parasitic/anti-worm medication. Does anyone know the effects of using these together, at the ratio provided?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On what basis have you determined that the bacteria are anaerobes? It is only effective as an antibiotic on anaerobes.... You should also know that if you overdose the metronidazole you can cause permanent damage to the frogs or kill them. 

Ed


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## Dillon Wascher (Jul 26, 2011)

I don't know if it's anaerobic or not. Dr. Frye recommended baytril. As I said in my post, I have already ordered baytril, and am kind of grasping at straws since the baytril is supposed to take 7-15 days to ship, and I ordered it Tuesday. I saw that metronidazole was also an antibiotic so I thought it might help, but if it is only for anaerobes and I was recommended baytril it might not. Dr. Frye made his recommendation based on the following descriptions: 
TWO DAYS AFTER THE APPARENT ONSET:The frog was seemingly fine, displaying it's normal behavior, and eating. Then, Wednesday, it was crawling around on the ground, the gold on one eye turned greenish, and leaning to the side of it's discolored eye. It would periodically flop around, with little coordination, but with reasonable strength. There were and are no imperfections on the skin. It was initially somewhat bloated, but I think that was it's defense mechanism because I was holding it to try and examine it. I would describe him now as full-bodied, only slightly fatter than normal. As a side note, when healthy, he seemed to "blow himself up" rather easily, sometimes when all I did was aproach the tank. He's done that for about the past nine months, of the eighteen months I've had him, so I think it's natural and I just didn't notice it before. Since, I have removed the fake plant from it's tank, and left only the one real one. I have suspended a heat lamp over the tank, and have misted him every several hours with warm water (by the time the mist hits him it's only tepid or slightly warm). I have also offered the cover of a large fake plant leaf, which he crawled under. He has just been lying on the tank bottom. He stopped thrashing, and both eyes are now greenish. He has them closed most of the time. He moves a little when I mist him, and sometimes when I check on him he'll be in a different spot. I had been dusting the crickets with tetrafauna's reptocal, so I don't think it's spindly leg, but maybe a vitamin deficiency. The tank was a litle dirty, it was due for a clean the next day. The substrate was also constantly damp. I just realized as well that the temps have been getting into the 60's at night. My guess would be that the lower temps weakened his immune system and caused some sort of bacterial infection. The thing is, he doesn't have any external signs of bacteria, or anything for that matter. The only symptom is his constant lying on the ground, refusal to eat, and greenish eyes. I did some research, and my best guess is bacteria, but I read that usually there are skin lesians or bloating.
FIVE DAYS AFTER THE APPARENT ONSET:He is still alive. I have kept him in the same conditions, and he seems to be showing some slight improvement in his vitality. He's been moving around on the substrate a little bit, and he backs away or swats at crickets if I touch them to his nose trying to hand feed him. He is still quite uncoordinated and slow, and spends most of his time just sitting on the substrate like before, but like I said he moves around a little, which he did very little of before. His awareness seems to be increasing, and he is also much less listless, and now only slightly leans to one side. I have not noticed him eat, although there are fewer visible crickets than I have put in there, so either they've burrowed in the substrate or he has been eating. He is alone in his tank but I have not moved him, as I didn't want to add stress when he seems to be improving.
AND TODAY, NINE DAYS AFTER THE APPARENT ONSET (Dr. Frye didn't see this one, I just typed it today): I have begun hydrating him with pedialyte using a dropper. He won't soak in it for more that a minute. I wet him with the dropper every three or four hours, except at night, when I have to use a misting nozzle on a timer. I have also been giving him several drops of a solution of 2.3% calcium gluconate and the rest pedialyte twice a day. He is acting pretty much the same, although his eyes are quite green again. I haven't noticed any change really, except that his back legs look like they've gotten skinnier. 
Dr. Frye also said he wasn't a big fan of my supplements, so it might be spindly leg after all, instead of a bacterial infection. If you think it is spindly leg, do I need to be giving him liquid calcium as well as calcium gluconate, and if so, can I make it by adding calcium powder to pedialyte or do I need to buy it? Sorry for all of this, but it's my first attempt at medicating a frog. Makes me want to become a vet just so I can treat my own frogs, and not be a helpless guy relying on everyone else's suggestions .
p.s. I am aware of the importance of dosage amount when treating frogs; I had read some recommended dosages for metronidazole from previous posts so my question was more directed to it's usage with praziquantel, but I should have asked for more dosage recommendations as well. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay, right off the top.. spindly leg only appears when the tadpoles complete metamorphosis. You should have been able to see the deformation if it was severe enough to impact the health of the frog. Given that you have had the frog for 18 months, is a second indicator that it doesn't have spindly leg.... 
Temperatures at night down into the 60s F isn't going to suppress the immune system of the frog as those temperatures are going to be found in it's enviroment. 

Now it is possible that there is an issue with the calcium metabolism, but that may need an x-ray to confirm or rule it out. As for the supplement, how long have you had it? If it has been kept near the frog cage, or open for more than six months you may have a calcium issue. Adding more calcium to the powder isn't going to help since if the frog is deficient in vitamin D3, it can't use the calcium. Reptocal isn't a balanced supplement meant for solitary use. In the future, you can check out the Repashy products. 

If you can make up some amphibian ringer's solution, that is better for the frog than pedialyte as pedialyte doesn't have the correct osmolality for the frog. The calcium gluconate can help supply some sugar for energy. 

When you ordered the baytril, did you ask if there was an overnight shipping option? It would cost more but you would have the medications quickly. 

Also have you checked here to see if there is a vet within reasonable distance? ARAV a work up by someone who has the frog in hand is going to yield much better results than attempting to describe symptoms over the phone or internet. For example, the vet could do a blood draw to check for a septicemia or do a sensitivity test to make sure that an infection is going to respond to the antibiotic. Your frog could have a viral infection in which case, the antibiotic may only prevent secondary infections.... 

Ed


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## ncc2015 (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm sorry your baby is sick. But I definitely agree with Ed to look at vets around your area that treat PDFs. Since they're such small and delicate creatures they can definitely deterioriate quickly. You really need to have the correct treatment asap especially after all the money you have invested on your frog. If you go to the link Ed posted you go to membership directory on the left and you should type in your state. When I tried my zip code nothing came up. It's really quite a relief taking your pet to the vet because you can get a more accurate diagnosis of the problem and get started on the proper treatment right away when seconds count. Luckily for me I just did a search and found that my exotic vet I go to for my chinchillas also treat PDFs which is a huge plus and they have about 3 or 4 vets listed at my clinic on there. If anyone lives in the Northern VA/DMV area I definitely would recommend Pender Vet Exotics on Legato RD. by Fair Oaks mall. I hope you get medicine soon and that it isn't too late. Good Luck.


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