# BYH female very skinny and struggling to move about



## froggybrie (Oct 25, 2017)

*Frog:* Name is "Welly" - 4 year old d. tinctorius BYH female. Has not lain eggs in over a year (male doesn't call anymore). 
*Tankmate:* Only one male ("Puddle"). Historically peaceful toward one another, no bullying or hogging food. Male is perfectly healthy, good condition
*Environment:* 32"x32"x24" enclosure. Only plant is a pothos (which has become huge and we have to trim back frequently but admittedly delinquent about). Substrate is mostly soft pebbles, slate, a couple of logs which were cleaned with aquatic-friendly water years ago. Tank top is mesh but has been sealed with acrylic top to keep in humidity. 
*Humidity:* Automatic mister keeps humidity at 75-85%. Water used for misting is deionised water. Sometimes we manually mist with a spray bottle (water treated with exo terra aquatize). 
*Lighting/Heating:* I totally forget other than it's a 2% coil bulb, but we were meticulous about setting it up. Lighting does not provide any heat. There is a heating pad on one side of the outer enclosure which disperses heat when needed (and is not hot to touch). Temp is 19-20C at night and 22-24C during daytime but there was a temperature drop (see below).
*Food:* d. Melanogaster and d. Hydrei, supplemented with Repashy Calcium+ whenever feeding. Sometimes springtails. Doesn't tolerate bean weevils or food that doesn't move (larvae). Repashy Vitamin A+ is applied once or twice a month. 
*Froggy condition:* Welly is very skinny, and has lost vibrancy in colour, since early January. We believe it may have started when there was a sudden drop in temperature overnight, as we realised then that the temperature sensor had failed. Temperature was corrected after being low for about 3 days. Over this past week, she also shows signs of having lost some use of her left back leg, moves slowly and "limps". She is still able to eat and interested in food, but becomes overwhelmed and extremely agitated if any of her flies climbs onto her, so we've had to feed very carefully (1-2 at a time) to prevent this. Twice tried giving her a bath in Ringer's solution until vet advised we stop. She also seems to have been moulting over the past few days, she had a string of mucous stuck to her this morning, and it looks like she may still have at least one eye cap still attached  Currently she's eating about 20 d. Hydrei per day and some d. Melanogaster. We now have her separated into a smaller enclosure (with coco hut, pebbles, and a slate for feeding) in order to minimise potential stress from Puddle and to keep food from getting lost. No handling except with gloves to bring her to the vet. 
*Vet:* Took Welly to the vet on Tuesday (exotic specialist). Vet gave her a daily antibiotic drop in order to combat possible infection (but didn't indicate that there was a definite infection). She also provided a glucose drop to administer every 3 days. Ruled out parasites (analysed fecals from the same day and from a week ago which was frozen). 

We are really trying our best with this poor frog. We have another vet appointment in 2 weeks' time but is there anything we can do in the meantime? Would really do anything for this girl. Again the male is fine and they haven't had any major changes to their enclosure in the 4 years we've had them.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

froggybrie said:


> *Frog:* Name is "Welly" - 4 year old d. tinctorius BYH female. Has not lain eggs in over a year (male doesn't call anymore).
> *Tankmate:* Only one male ("Puddle"). Historically peaceful toward one another, no bullying or hogging food. Male is perfectly healthy, good condition
> *Environment:* 32"x32"x24" enclosure. Only plant is a pothos (which has become huge and we have to trim back frequently but admittedly delinquent about). Substrate is mostly soft pebbles, slate, a couple of logs which were cleaned with aquatic-friendly water years ago. Tank top is mesh but has been sealed with acrylic top to keep in humidity.
> *Humidity:* Automatic mister keeps humidity at 75-85%. Water used for misting is deionised water. Sometimes we manually mist with a spray bottle (water treated with exo terra aquatize).
> ...


The frog looks like it’s going to die. No offense. Let’s try to help her survive.

First question, are the frogs wild caught or captive bred? Second, I would put more then one plant in there but it’s an overgrown pothos so maybe not. Definitely not the cause. Third, pebbles and slate as a substrate is not a good substrate. If you can, I suggest you get ABG mix and leaf litter as soon as possible. Do that with the quarantine tank as well. Lastly, are the dimensions of the tank in centimeters? Just want to know.

Im not the most knowledgeable on this forum. Maybe someone can kick in as well.

Hopefully, your frog gets better!


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## SpaceMan (Aug 25, 2013)

I think they've got her in a temporary quarantine enclosure, and those are not the conditions the animal was living in (just a guess). 

Honestly it sounds like you're doing everything you can, and assuming the specialty vet knows their stuff, I'd keep taking their advice. 

Did the vet say why you should stop the ringer solution baths -- was it just too much stress?


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## froggybrie (Oct 25, 2017)

The dimensions of the main enclosure are in inches, sorry... There is leaf litter in it. The temp housing is only pebbles, cocohut, and slate for now (but I can get some leaves into it if it would help). We got the frogs captive-bred as froglets about 4 weeks old from a reputable breeder

The vet unfortunately didn't say much about the Ringer's solution, she just accepted it and told us to stop for now (we can't actually get the solution from a shop here in the UK, but the formula is easily and readily available so my spouse who is a formulation chemist was able to make some to the appropriate specification/dilution in his workplace lab)

I almost wish it were a parasite - At least then we would know what to do. The antibiotic is kind of a shot in the dark, I think. I feel so sorry for her. At very least we are trying to minimise her stress and suffering. She is still hungry and eating several times a day, so that's our hope right now ...


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

froggybrie said:


> The dimensions of the main enclosure are in inches, sorry... There is leaf litter in it. The temp housing is only pebbles, cocohut, and slate for now (but I can get some leaves into it if it would help). We got the frogs captive-bred as froglets about 4 weeks old from a reputable breeder
> 
> The vet unfortunately didn't say much about the Ringer's solution, she just accepted it and told us to stop for now (we can't actually get the solution from a shop here in the UK, but the formula is easily and readily available so my spouse who is a formulation chemist was able to make some to the appropriate specification/dilution in his workplace lab)
> 
> I almost wish it were a parasite - At least then we would know what to do. The antibiotic is kind of a shot in the dark, I think. I feel so sorry for her. At very least we are trying to minimise her stress and suffering. She is still hungry and eating several times a day, so that's our hope right now ...


I honestly don’t know what to say. This is pretty mysterious.

I honestly don’t have any guesses. The breeder and the vet seem to be reliable. Maybe a mod or a very knowledgeable person here can help.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

I can't help you with a diagnosis but if she's this underweight but still hungry and eating well then I'd try offering some nice fatty hatchling waxworms. You mention that she doesn't eat larvae because they don't move but the baby waxworms are quite active and trigger a good feeding response in all other reptiles and amphibians I've offered them to.
In the UK you can get 2000+ for less than a tenner from HERE
They can be very useful for underweight herps.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Isolate, as you have, I would keep the enclosure really simple. Paper towel, cocohut to hide in, ensure some leaf litter that is dry is inside the hut, on the floor, and some outside, so it can keep its toes dry. Paper towel can stay moist to keep humidity up (keep it at ~60% if you can). Replace as needed. Feed daily with Repashy Cal+ dusted flies, as much as it will eat.

Likely this frog will pass away within a week based on the look of it, but let's hope not.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

I just want to add that while this frog is clearly in poor health, amphibians of all kinds are incredibly robust animals in many respects and I've been able to bring worse cases than this back from the brink so dont give up hope. She doesn't look great but I've seen frogs in worse condition make full recoveries. It's very lucky to have someone who is willing and able to do everything they can for it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Sounds as if you have a qualified vet on your side -- that's a good thing. 

I suppose the suspicion is that the temperature excursion sparked some sort of sepsis; other obvious causes have been ruled out. I'd keep doing what the vet recommends, and hope for the best but prepare for the worst. You are really doing a good job through this, and whatever happens you should know that you did everything an excellent keeper would have done. 

For future reference, did you happen to measure the low temperature that seems to have precipitated this downturn? If nothing else, we can learn what a dangerously low temperature spike might be.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Get the vet to do a fecal check spans swab for chytrid particularly since you had a thermal stress. Talk to the vet about supplemental tube feeding using oxbow critical care for carnivores. 

Ed


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Ed said:


> Talk to the vet about supplemental tube feeding using oxbow critical care for carnivores.
> 
> Ed


How would you go about tube feeding something as small and delicate as this? are you talking about squirting something down its throat with a syringe or something more elaborate?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

It may seem daunting, and its true that most hobbyists with a few personal animals do not have the opportunity to gain much practice - tube feeding is one of the most useful skills a person planning to keep animals in their lifetime can have. The prognosis of sick animals receiving nourishment is so much better, even in cases of undetermined etiology.

In diagnosed herps the outcome gap of medicated assist-nourished subjects vs medicated n subjects not receiving nourishment is wide, if there is not so much tissue wasting as to leave organs incapable of metabolizing food. This is also a critical point to why fluids therapy (ie the ringers) *before* proteins and calories are given is important otherwise immediate kidney failure is consequence.

Although I have not tubed a dart, Ive tubed many a neglected B.orientalis, including a couple immature frail individuals (pretty much dart sized) and was successful. I used a SS curved16 ga bulb tipped dosing needle. 

Although many people use credit cards or guitar picks to part small mouths I prefer using a more 'atraumatic' material. There is less stress and struggle at the onset of the procedure. Some things I have used are a butlers gum stimulator with the polyvinyl point melted dull, a tuberculin syringe with rubber plunger cut at an angle, a slice out of silicone spatula, a spire cut from a section of a silicone drinking straw. With the orientalis however a gentle pull parting the seam of the mouth and using the stem close to the bulb of the dosing needle itself was adequate to enable insertion with a small swiping motion to turn the bulb in position. 

Getting to the stomach is the goal. If its your first time look at anatomy diagrams of The Frog. Its a very straightforward and short trip. Following the roof of the mouth will naturally guide you to the right place. Altough it may be unrealistic tip for first timers who will have most attention on the mouth and feeling the struggle of subject, when the bulb is in the right place you will feel it through the skin. Again its a short trip but its necessary to not leave slurry in the mouth to be aspirated into the glottis or just lay there in bucca in very weak specimens whos swallowing motor is not at capacity.

Its very important to make certain the slurry is smooth enough to go through the bore. Clots will put the procedure to standstill This can mean putting the syringe it through a trail run with the slurry before administering. 

A 'worked' slurry that's of smooth consistency - is better than a watery one. As even a thinned slurry can clot with collected particulates.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Louis said:


> How would you go about tube feeding something as small and delicate as this? are you talking about squirting something down its throat with a syringe or something more elaborate?


KMC covered it just fine and I've tubed frogs as small as 2/3 adult sized auratus with the vet's help in an institutional setting. Probably the only more straight forward animal to tube are snakes.

Some comments

Ed


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## froggybrie (Oct 25, 2017)

Thanks very much to everyone for their thoughts and advice. We believe temps may have been as low as 15.5C (night) for a period of time at absolute minimum. Of course as you can imagine we're feeling quite bad over this, and we've really grown to love our frogs especially as the pandemic keeps us home.

We live in the UK, and it looks like Oxbow is an American brand which isn't distributed here - I can buy their products on Amazon but it wouldn't arrive until at least April. I'm not really sure about tube feeding, especially as she's able to eat a good amount on her own. I may call the vet to ask their thoughts on the matter, but I'm not able to get that product any time soon I'm afraid. Its likely they vet would have something available to them which I don't.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

froggybrie said:


> We live in the UK, and it looks like Oxbow is an American brand which isn't distributed here - I can buy their products on Amazon but it wouldn't arrive until at least April. I'm not really sure about tube feeding, especially as she's able to eat a good amount on her own. I may call the vet to ask their thoughts on the matter, but I'm not able to get that product any time soon I'm afraid. Its likely they vet would have something available to them which I don't.


A drop to approximately 60 F isn't cold enough in and of itself to cause problems for the frogs. If your tank went below 10 C then thermal shock might be a bigger problem. 

The claim that Oxbow products are not available in the UK makes me skeptical of at least one of two things,
1) your not really working with a vet (why haven't you had fecals and/or chytrid testing performed?)

2) you didn't look very hard for it. There are multiple distributors of it in the EU and two in the UK. Your vet should have access to the product as it is used for cats and ferrets. 

I hate when these things make me skeptical that the claim of vet involvement may actually be minimal or not at all. A frog that is thin and/or losing weight despite feeding should have had one or more fecals run as part of a checkup by any vet that has seen the animal as part of the initial evaluation. A chytrid PCR test should also be considered as infection by the fungus disrupts the frog's ability to regulate its osmotic balance... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

froggybrie said:


> (analysed fecals from the same day


This was done.


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## froggybrie (Oct 25, 2017)

I just wanted to give an update here and to thank everyone for their suggestions and support.

I can't believe it, but Welly has improved drastically since this post. We were ready to euthanise if absolutely necessary, but we (and she) did not give up and it's truly paid off. 

6 weeks ago:


http://imgur.com/sQNAREZ


Today:


http://imgur.com/da299ts


*Updates since last post:*

Discovered that she had a fracture in her right wrist, she definitely did not have this at the beginning of her ailment so it's most likely it was from stumbling whilst weak
Vet prescribed an antibiotic which we've been giving daily, and calcium gluconate which we gave for the first week. Had follow-up vet visit two weeks later and she looked brighter/had gained 1g since first visit
Quarantined to smaller enclosure with leaf litter/moss/coco hut where we've been limiting her mobility until her wrist improves
Got a new UVB bulb for her temporary enclosure and monitored dosage (this actually seems to have had the most significant effect) - Worth the £215 spent on a UVB meter!
Changed out vitamin supplements for fresh ones - Can't hurt.
We had for a while been "hand-feeding" her flies from a bottle cap several times per day to encourage her to eat, but were able to stop about a week and a half ago, she's eating independently and very ferocious, 50-60+ flies per day now where previously 20 would have been an accomplishment
No longer stumbling and falling over onto her back (this was horrible to watch)
No longer overwhelmed by food (she was afraid of flies getting onto her skin and would quickly retreat from eating), can now take on many flies at once
Has gained at least 2g since March
Massive improvement in behaviour - Vigorously hunting on her own, doesn't show signs of stress, very alert and gregarious. She can now put some weight on her right "wrist" which is still not 100% but it's definitely improved - She moves about much more easily, and can hop and climb now
Eyes are bright and clear
Limbs are still very thin but she has gained "belly" and is not nearly as bony as she was previously

I'm truly amazed at how resilient this frog is. She's still in the smaller temporary enclosure until her wrist is completely healed, and we are going to be extremely patient. We've accepted she may not ever be able to be reintroduced to her mate's viv, but hopefully someday...


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I can't tell you how happy I am to hear this news! When I first saw the pics, I really thought there was no way that frog was going to make it. So happy to be proved wrong! 

I want to say thank you for coming back and updating us. It is very rare to have someone come back and update us (with positive news, no less) after an event like this. This is a really great data point. 

Was the UVB the advice of the vet? If so, I would really like to hear what the vet was basing this on since the issue of appropriateness of UVB for dart frogs has been contentious on this board. Maybe the vet can point us to some sources to support that decision and remove some ambiguity for us.

Congratulations on bringing your frog back from what had to be the brink of death. Kudos also for being willing to pay the money to go the vet, provide what the frog needed, etc. You are a better frog keeper than I am.

Mark


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Chris S said:


> Likely this frog will pass away within a week based on the look of it, but let's hope not.


I don't usually like being proven wrong, but this is certainly one of those occasions! 

Thanks for coming back to update us...I think most of the time this does not happen. What do you (and the vet) think was the primary reason for the initial decline, and what do you think was the turning point for recovering (and the change that triggered it)?


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## froggybrie (Oct 25, 2017)

Thanks Mark! To be honest, the UVB recommendation was the only advice from the vet I disagreed with. The reasoning was for vitamin D exposure in order to absorb the calcium from the supplement, but Repashy Calcium+ already contains vitamin D3. She actually recommended a *10%!!* UVB lamp which would be suitable for a desert animal like a bearded dragon, but it would literally burn a frog. We did some research on this and read a study (I actually think it was linked from a post in this forum) that *some* UVB was beneficial to most species of dart frogs, so we got a natural daylight bulb and used the UVB monitor to ensure that the distance between the bulb and the top of her coco hut was receiving approximately 2uW/cm2 after passing through a glass top (as acrylic blocks UVB pretty efficiently). That level of UVB has been steady for about 3 weeks now.

Since we unscientifically changed several variables at once, I can't be entirely certain that the UVB itself made a difference, but the day we installed it she became significantly more active. We're still not completely sure what caused the initial decline, at first we suspected low overnight temps. Puddle (male) was affected (lethargic, loss of interest in eating) but bounced back immediately (and is still 100%) after the temperature was increased, whereas Wellington just spiralled downward, but it could be that the wrist break prevented her from recovering. It's really hard to say, in retrospect. 

I'm glad to be able to update, I know it's a bit unsatisfying when someone posts about a sick pet, you take the time to advise them, and you never know if it worked out or not. I really do appreciate it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks for updating. 

It is the UVA in the lamp that would quickly affect the behavior in a positive way, based on everything I've read. Herp-intended lamps usually have a relatively high output of UVA. Edit to add: You had a 2% lamp on the original enclosure, right? That suggests that the lamp change wasn't actually the cause of the improvement. 

Would you post the details of the lamp (brand, size, wattage, claimed UVB output) for reference? That would help other keepers in the same situation. Also, what model of UVB meter are you using?

Which antibiotic was the frog prescribed? Seems an odd treatment. Was there some sort of infection suspected?

Curious: did you (or would you please) test the UVB reading without the glass barrier at the same distance? Glass is known to block UVB, too, so a bit of data from your situation would be useful.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

froggybrie said:


> I'm glad to be able to update, I know it's a bit unsatisfying when someone posts about a sick pet, you take the time to advise them, and you never know if it worked out or not. I really do appreciate it.


It is also a great learning experience for everyone, including those who try to help with advice. Out of curiousity sake, could you post a full pic of what their permanent enclosure looks like?


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## froggybrie (Oct 25, 2017)

Sure - I'm away for the weekend but I'll update the post when I can with more info. What I do know is that the antibiotic prescribed is baytril (diluted to I think .01ml)


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