# Do you think darts "play"?



## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I have 2 tincs who are usually doing some sort of acrobatic move in their tank on a regular basis. They climb to the highest point in the tank and then leap across the tank and land on a leaf. I thought they were being a typical frog but one day I watched them do this over and over again. They would climb to the same place, leap and land in the same place as before over and over again. They have 5 foot of "playing" space. I wonder if they are just "playing" or if they are stressed about something.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

i would say for sure their playing.. i mean i observe my frogs pretty oftin and i notice that they each have lil personalitys and the more i watch the more i learn. they each have fav places in the vivarium, fav plants, ect. i would say for sure their playing i noticed sick or stressed frogs dont do much of anything. be happy their active.


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## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

I always find it hard to wake up in the morning....

...UNLESS I watch my tincs 'playing' around. I find it so entertaining haha, and they do it all day long!

I definitely think they play. They're smarter and more curious than any of my other creatures. They seem more sentient.


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Humans tend to think their pets have human traits. Frogs don't play, people just like to think so. They are completely hormone en instinct driven.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

and like frogs humans are nothing but another "living" thing that like most animals walk, eat, drink, and live.. if your puppys can play, children can play.. why cant frogs play? i firmly believe they do interact and play what else is there to do inside of a tank all day besides breed? the comment above was just dark and depressing. and if you dont believe your frogs play what do you have them for? i find that our frogs and most of our pets is alot more then just for our sheer enjoyment, or breeding. its us interacting with them and them interacting with each other and us trying to copy their natural envirement so that we may enjoy the personalitys and company of these animals. sorry to go off but damn could anyone be anymore wrong?


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

I'm sorry to sound depressing. It's certainly not my intention to make people feel bad! I do agree they interact with each other. It makes them fun to watch in my opinion. 

I could be wrong, but there is no proof of frogs playing. Yes, dogs and other mammals play but that is a mechanism for teaching young animals hunting et cetera. Animals that are less advanced such as frogs are more like little robots. They are very basic animals that act on instinct for most of the time. They don't need to be taught anything by their parents.

That doesn't make them less interesting to watch.


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## Elf_Ascetic (Jan 31, 2009)

Behavior like this could also be called stereotypy. You all know large cats in a zoo, running from right to the left, to the right, to the left, all day long. Birds in a cage are also known for showing this kind of behavior, hipping on and off the same two sticks repeatly. It's an indication they are stressed. I'm not sure stereotypy occurs in frogs.

It's hard to make the difference between "playing" and stereotypy just by reading this post. I think almost every frogkeeper can see, or logically conclude, whether his/her frogs could be stressed.


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## AndyShores (Jan 6, 2009)

013 said:


> I'm sorry to sound depressing. It's certainly not my intention to make people feel bad! I do agree they interact with each other. It makes them fun to watch in my opinion.
> 
> I could be wrong, but there is no proof of frogs playing. Yes, dogs and other mammals play but that is a mechanism for teaching young animals hunting et cetera. Animals that are less advanced such as frogs are more like little robots. They are very basic animals that act on instinct for most of the time. They don't need to be taught anything by their parents.
> 
> That doesn't make them less interesting to watch.


I had a long discussion back and forth with some people on another forum about this very topic. Its fairly useless to try and convince people of, they believe what they choose to believe, and anthropomorphism is a hard one to break. I totally agree with you (not that its really something to agree about, its just fact) so I'm not jumping you or anything, just saying its not a winnable battle. Think of it like trying to convince bible beaters of evolution... if you've ever been there, its impossible. Forest for the trees etc... But, we're all frog nerds so its cool haha. I even catch myself putting reasoning behind my frogs such as playing sometimes, and I talk to them every day haha


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

I think animals are smarter than people give them credit for.

If all frogs wanted out of life were to eat and breed, they would do nothing but sit under a coco hut all day waiting for food. There would be no reason to even venture to the other side of the tank that leads to nowhere. Yet they do all the time, even if they just ate.

I had a baby piranha that would even play in a little jet stream created by the air bubbler. It would swim towards it, then coast into it and use the current to do a back flip. It would do this repeatedly for hours every day. I even observed the other baby in the tank trying to figure out how he was doing it. He never quite figured it out though, because he would swim as soon and he was vertical and mess it up. After a few days of trying he gave up, but the first one did this every day for months until I moved them into the big tank with other piranha.


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## AndyShores (Jan 6, 2009)

Jayson745 said:


> I think animals are smarter than people give them credit for.
> 
> If all frogs wanted out of life were to eat and breed, they would do nothing but sit under a coco hut all day waiting for food. There would be no reason to even venture to the other side of the tank that leads to nowhere. Yet they do all the time, even if they just ate.
> 
> I had a baby piranha that would even play in a little jet stream created by the air bubbler. It would swim towards it, then coast into it and use the current to do a back flip. It would do this repeatedly for hours every day. I even observed the other baby in the tank trying to figure out how he was doing it. He never quite figured it out though, because he would swim as soon and he was vertical and mess it up. After a few days of trying he gave up, but the first one did this every day for months until I moved them into the big tank with other piranha.


I don't disagree with what you're saying, I just don't see it quite the same way. Animals do venture out (when it enhances their opportunities for feeding, breeding, survival, etc... and don't "sit under the coco hut" because they don't know that they are going to be fed, thus are always on the search. A rudimentary "enjoyment" of certain things is probably better classified as a means of exercise, with a pattern of behavior involved. I've had a piranha who also swam in the jetstream, and the reasoning is because they get better oxygen flow through their gills, and depending on how they use the jetstream, can actually save energy. The backflip probably means the pump was set too high.. not that it hurt him I'm sure. As for the other piranha watching, sure they learn from their tankmates. The difference between the higher developed brain and the "reptilian brain" leaves little room for any flux on this topic. Animals like frogs are by no means stupid, they just have developed the parts of their brains they need in order to survive through evolution. We had to develop more in the brain than they did, as did dogs, other primates, elephants, etc etc.. Its not a bad thing that frogs don't have highly developed brains, its just nature.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Elf_Ascetic said:


> Behavior like this could also be called stereotypy. You all know large cats in a zoo, running from right to the left, to the right, to the left, all day long. Birds in a cage are also known for showing this kind of behavior, hipping on and off the same two sticks repeatly. It's an indication they are stressed. I'm not sure stereotypy occurs in frogs.


That is exactly what I meant when I said stressed. I meant stressed by being in a tank instead of in the wild roaming free. They don't appear stressed because they aren't moving in a panic. They are taking their time getting across the tank and up the driftwood again.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jayson745 said:


> I think animals are smarter than people give them credit for.
> 
> If all frogs wanted out of life were to eat and breed, they would do nothing but sit under a coco hut all day waiting for food. There would be no reason to even venture to the other side of the tank that leads to nowhere. Yet they do all the time, even if they just ate.
> 
> I had a baby piranha that would even play in a little jet stream created by the air bubbler. It would swim towards it, then coast into it and use the current to do a back flip. It would do this repeatedly for hours every day. I even observed the other baby in the tank trying to figure out how he was doing it. He never quite figured it out though, because he would swim as soon and he was vertical and mess it up. After a few days of trying he gave up, but the first one did this every day for months until I moved them into the big tank with other piranha.


When the behaviors are those a person could consider fun or enjoyable for themselves, then there is a greater probability that a person would consider that the animal would be doing it for "fun" as opposed to considering it either a form of sterotypical behavior or an instinctual response to a stimulus (which can then become a sterotypical behavior if it continues). This is one of the big problems when dealing with diagnosing whether a behavior is a response to a stimulus, sterotypical behavior (which can be due to a stimulus or lack of stimulus) or other behavior such as play. 

Play in younger animals (mammals and birds) is typically a result of instinctual programming that allows for learning (not just skills but in social animals, social behaviors as well as social status). Play in adult animals is usually a form of social activity and in captive species often a displacement activity resulting from free time in which they don't have to forage for food items. 

The behavior in the piranha was a sterotypical behavior that was due to the current flow triggering a behavioral response. This behavior stopped when the stimulus was removed. 

This sort of stimuls needs to be monitored for the amount of stress that is applied to the animal because if the stress is high enough it can cause immunosuppression and in the older literature was often considered part of what was broadly called maladaption syndrome. 

This is not an easy topic for discussion as there is a lot of variation in interpretation of the behavior primarily due to bias in the observer and the observers trend to include anthropomorphic behaviors to thier animals. One of the most common ones I've seen on this and other forums is when the amphibian is first introduced to their enclosure and the keeper gets on the forum and proudly types how the frogs are exploring thier new habitat and are enjoying it... a more correct interpretation is that the frogs are frantically searching for a section of territory that they recognize due to the stress of being displaced from thier prior territory. Luckily most animals settle in quickly and the stress is transitory but if you were dealing with more sensitive animals that were recently transported you could see maladaption syndrome....

I'm going to read through the thread some more.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

divingne1 said:


> That is exactly what I meant when I said stressed. I meant stressed by being in a tank instead of in the wild roaming free. They don't appear stressed because they aren't moving in a panic. They are taking their time getting across the tank and up the driftwood again.


Stereotypical behaviors do not have to be part of the whole issue with obviously stressed animals.. for example do you bite your fingernails? That is a form of sterotypical behavior... do you clear your throat or say um or have a different spacer when talking or expressing a thought? Those are also stereotypical behavior.. humans are full of them but are often undiagnosed. 

The action doesn't have to be rapid or give the impression that the animal is stressed to beb stereotypical in source. One of the problems with sterotypical behaviors as seen in Zoo animals is that this really was not even recognized as a problem until the very late 1980s/early 1990s and attempts to figure out what the problem(s) were only got organized a few years later so this whole entire concept is relatively new field. For example, with the big cats, the issues is not being able to roam but to give them something to do for the several hours a day that they are up and active (they tend to sleep most of the day just like house cats and like house cats need something to keep them busy during that time). When you add in the factor of how long these animals can live, then you can still see a lot of stereotypical behaviors in the aging captive animals today. If the cat is rapidly pacing (much like some house cats when they want you to feed them and are weaving in and out of your legs), then check to see if there is something grabbing and holding the cat's attention (such as something they want to hunt, or if its close to feeding time or a keeper is nearby (and they want to be fed...)).

With the frogs, I would look to see what maybe the reason the frogs want to get up to that point. For example, males maybe looking for better calling perches... or the frogs may have seen something they consider to be a food item moving up there (I have seen tincts go through a lot of effort to climb a verticle wall to get at an intermittant drip from a drip wall to see if it was something they could eat). It could even be escape behaviors.. it needs a decent review to see what the stimulus is for the action. 

Ed


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

@AndyShores: yes anthromorphism is very tempting. I have had very good discussions on another forum with people who claimed their frogs commited suicide by drowning themself in the waterbowls.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Hmm. The frogs that do this are both males. Maybe they climb and then jump when they see a place they think might be suitable for a nest. 

The females stay on the land and very rarely climb. The only time I witness them climb is when they are following a calling male. 

Is stereotypical behavior stressful? If so, would putting more objects such has branches and vines across the tank (the open space above the bottom of the tank) help?


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

While I do fully grasp the type of stressed behavior exhibited by captive animals that everyone is talking about, I still don't find it outside of the realm of possibility for any animal, that has chemical responses to stimuli, to "play". At it's core, playing is simply something unnecessary to your survival performed for purposes of physical (and in humans this also produces emotional) stimulation. I do understand that not all animals are capable of the same emotional responses as we are. I think that one of the problems that is presented when addressing the concept of "play" in animals is that people directly link playing to fun. For us humans playing without fun is just exercising, yet both have positive effects. Even the fish that was swimming the current to increase oxygen flow over it's gills... I'm sure everyone has heard of oxygen bars. Sounds like the piranha was getting a little oxygen high. 

In conclusion, I have no idea what physiological reactions frogs have to physical activity but I feel that it's safe to say that they're getting some benefit out of it.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

interesting topic, this morning i had some time to kill before i went to work so i got a chance to really observe at my frogs i was looking at my grow out tank for a while and i noticed a few of the 2 month tincts wrestle a little, i have never noticed this behaivior in such young frogs, at first i thought it was just a 1 time thing then i noticed it again and again with difefferent frogs. They are getting ready for adulthood i guess is like tiger cubs when they play fight


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Marinarawr said:


> While I do fully grasp the type of stressed behavior exhibited by captive animals that everyone is talking about, I still don't find it outside of the realm of possibility for any animal, that has chemical responses to stimuli, to "play". At it's core, playing is simply something unnecessary to your survival performed for purposes of physical (and in humans this also produces emotional) stimulation.


Not necessarily. Play in juvenile carnivores for example is establishing hunting and fighting techniques and behaviors. In social groupings such as packs it can also establish social pecking orders before the animals are large enough to hurt one another... Play in ruminents hones not only escape but defense as well as potential combat for access to mates. In these cases play is essential to survivial. 

In your statement, you are making the assumption that play is an option that is chosen and is not in response to some stimulus or stimuli. This is not necessarily a correct assumption as the stimulus or stimuli doesn't need to be external. If it is due to an internal cue such as an animal not getting sufficient exercise, then it could very well be a requirement for its survivial. Unless one can demonstrate that there isn't a behavioral response to a stimuli that is not an attempt by the animal to maintain an optimal state, then the requirement for survivial cannot be ruled out. 




Marinarawr said:


> I do understand that not all animals are capable of the same emotional responses as we are. I think that one of the problems that is presented when addressing the concept of "play" in animals is that people directly link playing to fun. For us humans playing without fun is just exercising, yet both have positive effects. Even the fish that was swimming the current to increase oxygen flow over it's gills... I'm sure everyone has heard of oxygen bars. Sounds like the piranha was getting a little oxygen high.
> 
> In conclusion, I have no idea what physiological reactions frogs have to physical activity but I feel that it's safe to say that they're getting some benefit out of it.


Getting benefit from it doesn't include or exclude play as you noted with people and exercise but the idea of play has to be viewed with a skeptical eye as it is too easy (as demonstrated here with the reference to oxygen highs..the increase rate of swimming would require a greater level of oxygen and given the increased metabolic requirement not getting a "high". (ignoring that excess oxygen levels are not good in the blood... see High-intake oxygen can be harmful: VUMC study (02/7/03)) to make the assumption that because it looks like fun to us, it is play. Those observations are direct anthropomorphisms. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

divingne1 said:


> Hmm. The frogs that do this are both males. Maybe they climb and then jump when they see a place they think might be suitable for a nest.
> 
> The females stay on the land and very rarely climb. The only time I witness them climb is when they are following a calling male.
> 
> Is stereotypical behavior stressful? If so, would putting more objects such has branches and vines across the tank (the open space above the bottom of the tank) help?


It might not be for the best nesting area (which I would interpret for egg deposition) but perhaps for a better calling perch or after something they view as a potential food item.. can you rule out reflections in the glass... etc. Keep in mind that when one frog observes another one feeding on something it often begins to hunt in the same area. 

Sterotypical behaviors in and of themselves are often not stressful but they are often in response to something that is stressful. 

To my knowledge true sterotypical behaviors have not been documented in amphibians to date but they have been documented in reptiles so it might be more of they haven't really looked for them yet. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> interesting topic, this morning i had some time to kill before i went to work so i got a chance to really observe at my frogs i was looking at my grow out tank for a while and i noticed a few of the 2 month tincts wrestle a little, i have never noticed this behaivior in such young frogs, at first i thought it was just a 1 time thing then i noticed it again and again with difefferent frogs. They are getting ready for adulthood i guess is like tiger cubs when they play fight


I wouldn't interpret it that way.. It sound like you might have two females and they are attempting to set up territories..... Context is very important. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

ok, but if they are not sexually mature how can you say is a territory battle?


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Ed said:


> It might not be for the best nesting area (which I would interpret for egg deposition) but perhaps for a better calling perch or after something they view as a potential food item.. can you rule out reflections in the glass... etc. Keep in mind that when one frog observes another one feeding on something it often begins to hunt in the same area.
> 
> Ed


Yes, egg depostion is what I meant. I can not completely rule out them seeing their reflextion in the glass. Only that the back wall has no glass showing and that the space they jump from is in the middle of the tank, not next to glass and the plant leaves they jump are near the back of the wall or middle of the tank. 

Is stereotypical behavior stressful to an animal? Should I fill the open space more with plants or vines?


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Well since all of my previous statements were proven totally null and void () I guess I'll just say this: I don't think that we ever will have any idea what these behaviors in animals really mean. Everything I mentioned was simply speculation because... I'm not a frog. With that said, my short answer is "yes". I think frogs play.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Julio said:


> ok, but if they are not sexually mature how can you say is a territory battle?


There is nothing that states that the frogs have to be sexually mature to demonstrate these behaviors... you have a non-social territorial species kept in a manner in which competing animals cannot avoid one another or totally escape from one another as they would be able to do in thier normal enviroment. 

Early demonstration of adult behaviors normally seen in adults (for an example of this in turtles see Observations on the Courtship Behavior of Juvenile Chrysemys concinna concinna and Chrysemys …JW Petranka, A Phillippi - Journal of Herpetology, 1978) is not unknown in captive conditions. 

This means that even though they are not sexually mature, in all probability this is a serious aggression attempt unlike similar behaviors seen when real play behaviors occur (as this is not a social species in which play is used to develop social behaviors..). This is why even though they are not adults you cannot automatically ascribe this as play behavior, one needs to be aware of the background information that would indicate otherwise. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

divingne1 said:


> Yes, egg depostion is what I meant. I can not completely rule out them seeing their reflextion in the glass. Only that the back wall has no glass showing and that the space they jump from is in the middle of the tank, not next to glass and the plant leaves they jump are near the back of the wall or middle of the tank.
> 
> Is stereotypical behavior stressful to an animal? Should I fill the open space more with plants or vines?


Unless the animal is physically damaging itself (like feather plucking or scraping up a nose), sterotypical behavior in and of itself is not stressful however, the cause of stereotypical behaviors are typically stressful. I am not convinced that this is a sterotypical behavior and not say for example a normal reaction to another stimuli. If they are seen to be repeating it frequently for multiple periods of time (say daily for the next several days or multiple times a week) then it may be considered a stereotypical behavior as opposed to a reaction to a different stimuli. 

Ed


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

the best way to see if the frogs are playing or not is really to simply remove their play area and see if they find something else to do. but i think like people animals also handle their stress differently.. so dont think both frogs would do the same thing if they were both stressed. also do you as a keeper feel there is any reason for them to be stressed? almost everyone i know that have frogs and have seen them wrestle from froglets to full grown frogs pretty much all say. they play fight just like children do. what boy didnt wrestle with his friends as kids? but this is a fun thread lots of opinions and i certainly learned alot even though i may not agree with some views they were valid points. i mean unless any of us can speak to the frogs we truely wont ever know. in my opinion if their jumping around it shows their healthy and thats all that matters.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I don't know what the stress would be if they are stressed. Nothing has changed in their environment. Usually if I put my hands in the tank for any reason, they will either stop and stare at me or if I am trimming a plant next to them, they will usually retreat to their hide spots.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DCreptiles said:


> the best way to see if the frogs are playing or not is really to simply remove their play area and see if they find something else to do. but i think like people animals also handle their stress differently...


No, the physiological responses to stress are pretty much the same across taxa in vertebrates. If you want a good discussion on this in reptiles get a copy of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (I have a copy not 4 feet from where I am sitting). Much of the information contained in there about stressors etc is appliciable to amphibians as much as it is to reptiles. Removing the area doesn't do a single thing to define whether or not it is play.. if for (a theoretical) example it was an escape behavior due to some stress removing that would displace the activity to a different area. This does nothing to seperate play behaviors from other behaviors, it may at best cause displacement of the behavior and at worst not address the behavior if it is a negative stressor. 

The worst response you can have from stress in an animal or person is death (for example in people job stress Work stress and risk of cardiovascular mortality: prospective cohort study of industrial employees -- Kivimki et al. 325 (7369): 857 -- BMJ) (general stress in a small marsupial CSIRO PUBLISHING - Page Not Found is a interesting anuran one ScienceDirect - Trends in Ecology & Evolution : Two stressors are far deadlier than one) . 



DCreptiles said:


> so dont think both frogs would do the same thing if they were both stressed..


See above... 



DCreptiles said:


> almost everyone i know that have frogs and have seen them wrestle from froglets to full grown frogs pretty much all say. they play fight just like children do.


In that case those people are ignoring a major component of thier behaviors. They do not play fight. They are fighting for real and while they may not physically injure the opponent, there can be serious effects resulting from it such as immunosuppresion, denial of access to the best feeding areas, denial of access to breeding resources.... 
That is one of the main reasons when someone posts a question about a poor doing frog that is in a group situation, the first thing is to remove it.... This is not only a potential problem for the obviously stressed frog.. the one doing the aggression is also going to be undergoing stress and if it continues on a daily basis will be a problem for that frog. In the wild, with territorial species like this, once the territory is set, the "Dear-Enemy Phenomenon" (google it under google scholar for a lot of references) sets in and the stress is relieved. 

Not to be "snarky" but I suggest a through review of the natural history of these frogs is in order for those who think they are play fighting.... 

As I noted above, adult behaviors are not unknown in reptiles and amphibians and to think that they are playing is a potentially serious misinterpretation of thier behavior. 



DCreptiles said:


> what boy didnt wrestle with his friends as kids? but this is a fun thread lots of opinions and i certainly learned alot even though i may not agree with some views they were valid points. i mean unless any of us can speak to the frogs we truely wont ever know. in my opinion if their jumping around it shows their healthy and thats all that matters.



Humans are not solitary territorial animals. This is straight anthropomorphism. 

Ed


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

Very interesting question Candy... generated some great discussion points which have been very interesting to read. While I don't know about frogs, there are certainly adult animals who play; not just babies. For instance, my 2 female adult dogs play all the time. It is however amazing how many animal behaviors that might appear as play come down to mating related behavior at some level. I do think that people are quick to attach human characteristics to animal behavior, but whos to say playing is only a human and young behavior?
That being said, I also have a frog who enjoys climbing to a high point and jumping into the water... then climbing back up to do it again.. have no idea if that is play or not, but it certainly seems to be enjoyment on some level.


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

013 said:


> Humans tend to think their pets have human traits. Frogs don't play, people just like to think so. They are completely hormone en instinct driven.


sorry.. i havent read past this point but i feel i have to respond to this before reading further...

if pets dont have human traits and are completely hormone and instinct driven then explain the corvid family (crows ravens jays) these birds are super intelligent and have often been seen "playing" in the snow.. they will alight on top of a hill then slide and roll down the hill and others follow and they repeat this over and over. entire flocks have been seen doing this and they are not bathing, its a completely different act. 

dolphins, bears, horses, primates, raccoons, cats, dogs, ferrets, parrots, and on and on have been documented conducting what is considered "playing" not only among their own species but humans and even other animals in the wild... like wildabeast and zebra the calfs of these two animals have been noted chasing and hanging around each other in the wild.. now i havent studied up on this subject so i couldnt tell you more than examples but i will say that its been documented so much that it just proves animals are more than stimuilus and response type of organisms

so i see no reason why a reptile or amphibian would be any different. even some fish have been thought to play (octopus is the first that came to mind) 


i am not saying that they are playing but i would never never doubt they are capable of it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Link3898 said:


> so i see no reason why a reptile or amphibian would be any different. even some fish have been thought to play (octopus is the first that came to mind)
> 
> i am not saying that they are playing but i would never never doubt they are capable of it.


First off you should have read through the thread 

a point of clarification octopi are not fish.. 

There is a significant difference between those citated animals sociality and frogs (in general and dendrobatids in particular). All of those mammal and bird references have to depend on play to hone behaviors that allow them to engage in normal activities such as hunting, foraging etc in addition, play helps a number of them to determine where they are in the social order. You are ignoring the entire anuran lifestyle. 
Frogs hatch from eggs releasing a tadpole which in the case of dendrobatids are transported to a development site. The tadpole develop until metamorphosis (and we are ignoring the whole cannibalism aspect here) acting solitarily. They do not even engage in schooling behaviors as seen in some anurans. They metamorph into a fully developed froglet which then moves out into the woods without needing any interaction with any other froglets or adult frogs (unless its to avoid being consumed by a non-dendrobatid predator) disappearing into the leaf litter. There is no learned behavior to pass on to the froglet...so there is no need to practice any behaviors.. so no play.... 
They live in a territory functioning under the Dear Enemy Phenomenon (look it up on google) until the become reproductive adults at which point if it is a male it tries to establish itself a calling point or points and females may defend reproductive sites. 

These frogs have no need to engage in any social behaviors until they are defending a territory/resource or courting a mate or are being courted by a mate. They come out of the water hard wired with what they need to do... they do not even need to engage in the hunting type puzzles or communication seen in cephalopods (which is why they are smart they have to think to some extent (and there is some serious doubt as to whethere or not they play (its heavily favoring doubt...). 

This is one of the major differences between all of the examples you cited and frogs. 


Ed


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

yeah... i realised that pretty much right after i hit submit reply that what i stated was entirely different for the exact reasons you just pointed out....

da*n i need to make sure to get more than 2 hours of sleep in three days before trying to respond to something that takes brainpower... or at least read through everything then ponder what was said before attempting any sort of response.... then read the response and compair to what was said then make sure the points in said response match with what was stated -_-

sorry about that... just ignore my previous post.... seriously... brain goop... i dont really remember all of what i typed and that was what? 5 min ago... ugh..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My aplogies for getting "snarky".. I was sleep deprived as well. 

Ed


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