# Permethrin/Permectin as an anti-mite spray?



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

The only insecticide I can get ahold of locally (I can order but prefer to support my local Co-Op. Could any of these be used as a frog-ff safe mitacide?

D


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

No, it is not frog safe, though people do spray it on paper towels and keep the ff containers on it. I use IGR sprayed every few weeks..


----------



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

So I can use it as a DIY mite paper?

D


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Yep, let it dry first. It'll last up to two weeks.


----------



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Cool, thanks.

D


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reular mite paper lasts more than 2 weeks.... 

Ed


----------



## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

It does, my mite paper is still killing any loose flys after 30+ dayd..


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Yes, but many of the sprays can break down if exposed to UV rays within two weeks. 

I prefer using IGR, I've seen much better results with it, I no longer have a mite problem, I did before using other products. 



Ed said:


> Reular mite paper lasts more than 2 weeks....
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Yes, but many of the sprays can break down if exposed to UV rays within two weeks.


How many people are keeping thier fly cultures under UV providing lights or in direct sunlight that does not pass through regular glass or special acrylics? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It would seem to me, that if your frog room or culturing room is full of unfiltered UV light, you may have bigger things to worry about than the life of your anti-mite products. This could present a health danger to you and anyone in your frog room.


----------



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Doug, I was laughing for more than a few minutes after reading your post! I don't have any unfiltered UV lighting in my frog room, I don't think I'm on Mercury. Just sunlight and vivarium lights. Thanks a lot everyone.

D


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Right...so filtered sunlight through windows does have enough UVA rays to break down these chemicals? Most "daylight" bulbs put out UVA rays and enough of it does get through glass, bulbs we often use on our frog tanks.




Pumilo said:


> It would seem to me, that if your frog room or culturing room is full of unfiltered UV light, you may have bigger things to worry about than the life of your anti-mite products. This could present a health danger to you and anyone in your frog room.


----------



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Right...so filtered sunlight through windows does have enough UVA rays to break down these chemicals? Most "daylight" bulbs put out UVA rays and enough of it does get through glass, bulbs we often use on our frog tanks.


I think Doug means if there was unfiltered UV like on a planet without an atmosphere.

D


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Right...so filtered sunlight through windows does have enough UVA rays to break down these chemicals? Most "daylight" bulbs put out UVA rays and enough of it does get through glass, bulbs we often use on our frog tanks.


So lets consider this... First off we have to ignore the problems that leaving your cultures sitting in sunshine causes..... we have to also ignore the fact that multiple panes of glass reduce transmission which brings us to the following issues... 

1) pesticides that photodegrade typically are only affected by wavelengths between 250-400 nm.. which a large portion of which are blocked by window glass... (see http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.springer.com%2Fcda%2Fcontent%2Fdocument%2Fcda_downloaddocument%2F9780387208459-c1.pdf%3FSGWID%3D0-0-45-114395-p26737845&ei=geHtUO-6Kuip0AGWyYDoAg&usg=AFQjCNFC2nEk8SWls21I7CYyfljclPmzAg) In addition, they require direct sunlight to degrade rapidly as shading and reflectance either significantly reduce photodegrading or stop it from degrading all together. 

2) window glass is formulated to maximize clarity to waveleghts above 400 nm... which means that lower wavelengths are filtered to varying degrees... 

3) we are assumming that the flourescent tubes are within 18 inches of the cultures since UV beyond that range falls off dramatically... 


So while we could probably get some photodegredation of the pesticides...it is unlikely to play as significant a role as you are claiming as it would require
1) the cultures and the paper are in direct sunlight... Cooking your cultures would pretty much render the pesticide and mite issue moot.. 
2) If placed in sunlight they would have to have a activity spectrum of 250-400 nm of which only that above 350 nm is mainly passed through but this also decreases with each pane it has to pass through as well as the thickness of the pane.... so we really only have a probable activity spectrum of 1/3 (assuming that any of those are part of that pesticides sensitivity spectrum)... 
3) "full spectrum" lights that do have part of the spectrum in the significant UVA region typically only produce between 355-400 nm so see #2 above (also Is ultraviolet radiation production important? | Full-Spectrum Light Sources | Lighting Answers | NLPIP) 
4) people are spending the extra money for real full spectrum lights to hang over thier cultures ignoring the fact that lids of the cultures are going to be opaque (white mesh, paper towels, coffee filters) are opaque to UV lighting........ 

So it seems a little unlikely that this is a significant source of degredation..... 

In addition, mite paper tends to be fairly stable and inexpensive without some of the potential hazards of inhaling sprayed pesticides on a routine basis can cause (and the risks to cultured invertebrates from drift or overspray if done in the same area). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nope, sorry, it was not a joke. I'm assuming that most people do not allow much direct sunlight into their frog room. I know I certainly don't. Sunlight hitting your viv can raise the temperature in a hurry! Every frog room I've ever been in has had the windows blocked for that reason. Therefore, I'm choosing to address artificial lighting.

Not many people have their fly cultures ON or extremely close to their frog tanks. This would be an invitation to mites. I think that most people keep their flies at least several feet away from their vivs. If not, consider moving them, as that would alleviate some of your mite issues right there.
The lights over your vivs should be passing through at least 2 panes of glass (the top and the front), reducing the amount of UVA that passes through them. Then you take distance into account, with the amount of UVA dropping, with each foot it has to travel.
Straight up, I don't think much UV can reach your cultures, if you are utilizing your lights the way most froggers do.
Therefore, my health comment is addressing the possibility that unfiltered, artificial UVB lights may be coming into play. Unfiltered UVB can cause skin cancer, cataracts, blindness, and weakening of your immune system.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

You do know how important UVA is to your frogs health, right? It can dictate their appetite and general health. Even UVB is pretty darn important with D3 and calcium absorption. 

Either way, spray your paper towels as needed for mite control. 

I don't block the windows at my place, in fact, I use as much natural lighting as possible! Nothing gets cooked. 

Everyone has different ways of doing things correctly. 





Pumilo said:


> Nope, sorry, it was not a joke. I'm assuming that most people do not allow much direct sunlight into their frog room. I know I certainly don't. Sunlight hitting your viv can raise the temperature in a hurry! Every frog room I've ever been in has had the windows blocked for that reason. Therefore, I'm choosing to address artificial lighting.
> 
> Not many people have their fly cultures ON or extremely close to their frog tanks. This would be an invitation to mites. I think that most people keep their flies at least several feet away from their vivs. If not, consider moving them, as that would alleviate some of your mite issues right there.
> The lights over your vivs should be passing through at least 2 panes of glass (the top and the front), reducing the amount of UVA that passes through them. Then you take distance into account, with the amount of UVA dropping, with each foot it has to travel.
> ...


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> You do know how important UVA is to your frogs health, right? It can dictate their appetite and general health. Even UVB is pretty darn important with D3 and calcium absorption.
> 
> Either way, spray your paper towels as needed for mite control.
> 
> ...


That's fine. Of course you can run your frog room any way you want. I don't believe I dictated that you are not allowed to provide sunlight. Rather, I explained my comment about the *possible* use of UVB lighting, without protective lenses. I explained why I even considered that UVB MAY be an issue. I *absolutely* did *NOT* say that UVB cannot be properly used in our frog vivs. I also made the comment that UVA will be reduced after passing through 2 panes of glass and a distance of several feet. I'm not quite sure why you think that means that I am somehow blocking and purposely eliminating it from my vivs. 
As Ed pointed out, UVA in your frog room is unlikely to be a significant source of degradation. This is the impression I've been under, too. Therefore I simply addressed the danger of unfiltered UVB, *IF* it is in use.


----------



## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

I purposely use UVB emitting bulbs in ALL my viva for my animals health. I've never had SLS or MBD. I think more keepers should use it with most reptile and amphibian species. There are very well documented health benifits. 

Either way, if you're room as a window and you are making DIY mite sheets, you may need to reapply every few weeks to remain effective. Try it out, do whatever works for you. 




Pumilo said:


> That's fine. Of course you can run your frog room any way you want. I don't believe I dictated that you are not allowed to provide sunlight. Rather, I explained my comment about the *possible* use of UVB lighting, without protective lenses. I explained why I even considered that UVB MAY be an issue. I *absolutely* did *NOT* say that UVB cannot be properly used in our frog vivs. I also made the comment that UVA will be reduced after passing through 2 panes of glass and a distance of several feet. I'm not quite sure why you think that means that I am somehow blocking and purposely eliminating it from my vivs.
> As Ed pointed out, UVA in your frog room is unlikely to be a significant source of degradation. This is the impression I've been under, too. Therefore I simply addressed the danger of unfiltered UVB, *IF* it is in use.


----------

