# Question About Male Imitator Callings...



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Hey, 

I have 9 imitators in my tank the eldest are two males and one female. The other 6 are younger and I don't expect them to be calling yet but should soon.... 

However... I cannot understand why I only have one male calling. I have bread froglets successfully so I know I have a pair but it's always the same male calling. 

Why are none of my other males calling. I know that one male is for sure the same age as the calling one.. 

Would be nice to see more than one calling. 

Ideas....? 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Move the youngsters in to another tank. You'll get at least one or two others calling.

They're not calling now because of intimidation.

s


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Really...?!?! 

Damn.... This is going to be a problem... 

I am not a typical hobbyist with multiple tanks. I built one display tank which is 100 gallons to house a group of imitators. 

Is there not another way to deal with this? 
Maybe some others will call? Maybe they all won't be intimidated? 

Any else have any ideas? 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

What makes you absolutely positive that they're not all females? It's improbable, but possible.

s


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Well I know they are not all females. I can tell by their bodies. I can easily tell the males from the females. 

Second, statistically it would be damn near impossible to get all 9 females.... Just from a stat perspective  

I just saw the calling male showing some aggression towards another male 5 minutes ago.... Getting on top of him on the glass... Chasing him around. 

He has shown some aggression in the past. Not a lot but some.... 


Could other males not be intimidated and call anyways? Maybe some have weaker personality traits? 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Frank, this is the imitator aggression/intimidation that we discussed before. I know you disagree strongly with this, but I encourage you to research imitator aggression in group settings. I'll shut up now, Frank.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

True Doug we did talk about this before.. And please don't think I do not value your opinion because I do and I know you are one of the most knowledgeable people here. Not to kiss ass... 

I am not in denial about this one frog being aggressive towards others. That post you are referring to taught me what aggression is.... So now I know what is happening when I see it. 

This post was directed to the calling behavior or lack there of my other frogs... 
I was never aware that you can't have or its harder to have multiple calling males in one tank??? This wasn't meant to be a 'is this an aggression thread' but more so what the hell is with my other male thread. 

Thanks Doug. 



Pumilo said:


> Frank, this is the imitator aggression/intimidation that we discussed before. I know you disagree strongly with this, but I encourage you to research imitator aggression in group settings. I'll shut up now, Frank.




Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is exactly what I'm saying to you as well - and I knew nothing about your previous conversation.

Ventrimaculatas/Variabilis do great in groups. The more the merrier. 

Not always so with Imitators. 

s


Pumilo said:


> Frank, this is the imitator aggression/intimidation that we discussed before. I know you disagree strongly with this, but I encourage you to research imitator aggression in group settings. I'll shut up now, Frank.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frankrom said:


> This post was directed to the calling behavior or lack there of my other frogs...
> I was never aware that you can't have or its harder to have multiple calling males in one tank??? This wasn't meant to be a 'is this an aggression thread' but more so what the hell is with my other male thread.
> 
> Thanks Doug.
> ...


Thank you, and I do understand what you are asking. It all ties in together on the subject of grouping imitators. Multiple males, intimidation, stress, breeding, calling, NOT calling, fighting, egg-eating...it all ties in together.
Imitators CAN be grouped, but Imitators are probably easier to keep in pairs until you have some experience with them. 

If you are interested, I'll try to find the link where I have discussed this before, along with things I keep in mind while setting up Imitator vivs.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I have no issues with starting Imitator Groups at 4 individuals.

But I CLOSELY watch the interaction. I have a few tanks where the original groups are still together - and I have a few tanks where I only have a pair now.

You never know how it's going to play out.

I will say that Varadero seem to do better for me in groups (I'm on my 2nd group of them - both times they've done just fine).

s


----------



## SwampFox (Mar 4, 2011)

Imitator aggression in groups is why I chose to do a different Ranitomeya species. Ranitomeya Variabilis 'Highland' look the same and do well in groups.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Well... today I am hearing calling from another guy in the tank.... a younger male....!

He refuses to be intimidated I guess! 

His call is much shorter than the older guy tho


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

You should look into the natural history and behavior in the wild of imitator. I can try to dig up some articles for you. Long and the short of it is that imitator males set up their territories and use their calls to help defend/delineate them. Females tend to stay in one males territory and the frogs are either monogamous or serial polygamists.

Like others have pointed out, the frogs aren't calling as much as the dominant male because they can't set up their own territory. You will get some calling and maybe another pair will start up but it isn't likely. While a 100 gallon viv is large it pales in comparison to the volume of space one pair of imitator occupy in the wild.

One thing you could try is putting a visual barrier in the center of your enclosure which may allow a second male to set up shop on the other side of the viv.

Good luck,

Chris


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Good info. Thanks chris. 

We all want to be fair to our frogs but at the same time as a hobbyist no one is wants to setup a 100 gallon tank just to put two frogs in it.. 

It's a tough balance for sure.. 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I know its a little late since the tank is built but, you could always take the 100g and put in glass partitions then design the hardscape to flow and look like one big tank. Well at least thats my dream for a 100g.


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

frankrom said:


> We all want to be fair to our frogs but at the same time as a hobbyist no one is wants to setup a 100 gallon tank just to put two frogs in it..


I'm not saying putting that many frogs in a 100g is wrong, rather pointing out that one pair will defend a much larger territory. So it is likely that you will have a lot of frogs in there doing nothing. More of an explanation for what you see.

Also, while imitators may be monogamous and I prefer to keep them in pairs, there are plenty of people who do well keeping them in groups in much smaller tanks than yours.

Happy, happy, happy


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks Chris your information has been very helpful. This is very interesting...

I do get some aggression in the tank... but not much which is nice. I have seen the dominate male get on top of a few other frogs but I could count on one hand how many times I've seen it.

The younger frogs I've added to the tank are starting to come into their own now. I see them exploring much more. I found another set of eggs in the exact same spot I pulled eggs on New Years Eve... but this time it was a different frog in that spot. I still wonder if it is the female partner of the dominate frog... or maybe it was the new frog I saw in that spot this time... donno!

But either way Thanks for the info Chris. 

I have a ton of bromes in my tank too you think there would be enough hiding spots, laying spots for all but!





Chris Miller said:


> I'm not saying putting that many frogs in a 100g is wrong, rather pointing out that one pair will defend a much larger territory. So it is likely that you will have a lot of frogs in there doing nothing. More of an explanation for what you see.
> 
> Also, while imitators may be monogamous and I prefer to keep them in pairs, there are plenty of people who do well keeping them in groups in much smaller tanks than yours.
> 
> Happy, happy, happy


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Chris Miller said:


> You should look into the natural history and behavior in the wild of imitator. I can try to dig up some articles for you.
> Chris


Actually Chris... You Scott and Doug have me intrigued. 

If you have those articles I would like to read them.

Cheers


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you want it, Frank, here are some of the things I keep in mind when grouping Imitators.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/784226-post6.html


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> If you want it, Frank, here are some of the things I keep in mind when grouping Imitators.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/784226-post6.html


Thanks Doug... 

I got some ideas to change things up a bit in my tank... I think you'd be surprised my tank is probably well suited (I think) ... it may not be perfect but I do have a pretty well planted viv.. lots of bromes and calling spots.. a decent cannopy...

I'll take pictures soon (after I get my next order of bromes) and show you doug... I am curious to hear your opinion on whether you think it is decent for housing a group of ims!

Hang tight buddy!


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frankrom said:


> Thanks Doug...
> 
> I got some ideas to change things up a bit in my tank... I think you'd be surprised my tank is probably well suited (I think) ... it may not be perfect but I do have a pretty well planted viv.. lots of bromes and calling spots.. a decent cannopy...
> 
> ...


Ahh, but if you give us pics NOW, before you add more broms, you might get some good advice from Chris, Scott, myself, or others familiar with grouping imis.
The problem I see often, when using large vivs for thumbnails, is the negative space. I see a lot of wasted space, that a few nice pieces of ghost wood or manzinita, would make more usable.
Understand I'm not saying yours is, Frank. I'm sure I probably saw some early pics of your setup, but I honestly don't remember how it looks.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Okay... Valid point... 

Pictures soon. Need to do a few things. But I'll take you up on that... 

You Scott and chris! 

Thanks 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Okay...

I took pictures and resized them like 5 times and they are still too big to be uploaded to this website... so i had to upload the photos to a image posting website to make my life easier...

View image: tank PICS

(firstly... the photos really do not look that great but it gives your an idea)

1) Replace all air plants up top with bromes... air plants are useless and frogs dont use them. By putting bromes I am providing more hiding spots, breading spots

2) Remove the fake vines that are running across my tank

3) Move that large cluster of bromes on the right side of my tank and place it on the left side of my tank where there is open space (I removed some other dying crap)

4) Inside a not so wide but taller piece of driftwood in the center of my tank (around the spot where the green cluster of bromes are). One with some points that provide vertical height and more space. I will fill the spikes with bromes (drill them into the driftwood). The idea here is to provide a wall or a visual barrier in the center of my tank and at the same time providing more breeding spots, calling spots etc.


That is the general idea...

Yes my tank is brome heavy.... i have about 20 bromes already and when I implement this new idea... probably 30....

I do not really care if it is brome heavy... i love bromes... they are hearty, easy to keep... and imitators being egg feeders... bromes are great for them.


SCOTT DOUG AND CHRIS... really looking forward to hearing back from you 3 and anyone else who can give feedback on this idea resolving some intimidation issues I am having.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This might work. Then again it might not.

You're providing visual barriers (the broms) and somewhere to feel secure (again, the broms) but if that alone would have done the trick, then 20 would be as good as 30.

The "dominant" male KNOWS there are other males in there. He makes it his business to keep them submissive. He does this by bullying the other males.

You're going to have to continue to look for visual clues in regards to bullying.

I have a four foot tall hex tank (20" across - it's BIG) and I see the dominant male chasing another male now and again. I may have to pull that 2nd male.

I'd rather not - because at times it's obvious to me that I have two groups laying eggs in here. But I will not be part of having a submissive frog bullied - to death (and it happens).

How your frogs look, and how they act, are what you will need to watch closely.

s


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Hey Scott, 

1. The bromes I have in there now are really just placed on the backgrounds and are not really making a visual barrier so that is why the 20 bromes are not working right now.... I think anyways. 

2. My frogs all look healthy right now. At times I see the dominate male just hanging out in a group with the other frogs too. He isn't always after them when he sees them. 

3. It's also kinda weird because my tank is 4 ft wide and at times 5 or 6 choose to hang out all within a few inches of each other. It's weird... 

This is kind of frustrating because I do not have the luxury of having a ton of tanks to move the frogs around.



Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

As Scott said, nothing is surefire. They look like good changes to make. I would also work on getting more leaf litter in there. I like an average of a couple inches. Some larger leaves, like Magnolia, would help,too. A fallen log could also make a nice barrier, and could help break the space into separate territories.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> As Scott said, nothing is surefire. They look like good changes to make. I would also work on getting more leaf litter in there. I like an average of a couple inches. Some larger leaves, like Magnolia, would help,too. A fallen log could also make a nice barrier, and could help break the space into separate territories.


Yeah... I will be adding more leaf litter but after I make all these adjustments

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Yeah, I agree with Scott and Doug. You'll have to keep an eye on them, add more leaf litter and try to get something that divides the tank in half physically. 

A fallen log or large buttress looking root thing made out of cork would work. Something that goes from the front to the back physically and maybe 2/3 to 3/4 of the way to the top. 

Just don't put any bromeliads on it or other deposition sites. It needs to act as a DMZ. It's no guarantee that the dominant male won't mess around on the other side but it will help.

It will help add surface area to the living space to the enclosure which is much more important than volume.


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

frankrom said:


> 2. My frogs all look healthy right now. At times I see the dominate male just hanging out in a group with the other frogs too. He isn't always after them when he sees them.


Just because he isn't chasing them doesn't mean he isn't dominating them and stressing them out. Watch dogs interact at a dog park.

It also doesn't mean that he is stressing them. The key is to be vigilant, observe your frogs and know what is normal and what isn't - which can be tough when you don't have a experience under your belt. You've undertaken quite an endeavor, and you will get out of it what you put in.

One further suggestion is have a rehab viv - like a 10 gallon set up and ready to go in case you need to pull someone quickly. Better safe than sorry; not trying to be doom and gloom.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks Chris.

I actually have a 10 gallon grow out tank for my froglets which I could pull stressed frogs out and put them into. Good suggestion.

You guys have any examples of a good visual barrier? 

I thought of the brome idea because i thought it would be a good looking be effective visual barrier...

Now it seems like I just need an ugly eye sore of a visual barrier in my tank... hmmm so if you have any good examples of this being done without shoving a piece of plexiglass in my tank i would like to see it!

Thanks


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The first thing that pops into my head when I think of "visual barrier", is broad leafed plants, and leaf litter. Something that simply interrupts the frogs field of vision. A subordinate male, (or froglets) can move down lower into the viv, beneath the layers of broad leafed plants, and escape the eyes of a dominant male. Leaf litter large enough to hide the frogs, also provides cover and a means of escape.
You may be thinking that broad leafs and leaf litter are physical things, so why am I calling them visual barriers? Because they don't form something solid. Frogs can still come through a visual barrier quite easily.
Now a "physical barrier" could be a fallen log. Most physical barriers will also serve as a visual barrier (unless you use a clear partition). 
Check out my Reticulata viv http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/77509-pumilos-reticulata-viv.html. I was keeping these things in mind when I put it together, too. I am using much smaller fallen logs than Chris has suggested. Chris' huge log idea would be a more effective barrier than my small ones, but they still help. Notice on the first page, before any plants go in, how the bottom of the viv is divided up into sections via the cork log, and the first piece of wood that went in. Reticulata are said to be quite aggressive in groups, but my 2.2 is doing quite well.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks Doug...

So back to my tank... what do you think about me putting a large cork bark round in the center of my tank... this way I can still throw some plants on it... but it will block the entire center of my tank. The frogs could still get around it by going along the back or along the front glass ... but it would be a big improvement? 

I thought of this since I cannot find any driftwood....

Your thoughts on the cork rotting????


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frankrom said:


> Thanks Doug...
> 
> So back to my tank...


The links I'm providing ARE about your tank. They are providing examples, and going into detail about how I divided territories, etc. I'm of the opinion that this is directly related to your situation.
I have cork bark that has been in a humid viv for 7 years and was still holding up.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Doug... not to keep harping on it... I am just trying to make sure my next move to solve this issue is educated and has a chance as succeeding.

My question... If I actually get a nice large cork round and use it as a physical barrier (despite them being able to get around it)... add some more bromes and leaf litter...

The chance of this actually fixing the problem???? Is it likely... or is it just the best thing I could do and hope for the best...

If there is a slim chance this would even fix the problem... then I am not sure it would be worth the effort.

Maybe I need to sell these imitators if that is the case?

That is why I am asking... it would be a shame because these frogs are awesome and I find them super rewarding... 

If the above could actually resolve the problem then great I will do it... but if the dominate one is just going to hear them calling and hunt them down regardless... then what is the point? Know what I mean?


----------



## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Doug's cork suggestion would work just fine for you and yes, it would be a big improvement just in the fact that it adds to the usable space in the viv for the frogs.



frankrom said:


> Thanks Doug...
> So back to my tank... what do you think about me putting a large cork bark round in the center of my tank... this way I can still throw some plants on it... but it will block the entire center of my tank. The frogs could still get around it by going along the back or along the front glass ... but it would be a big improvement?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Chris Miller said:


> Doug's cork suggestion would work just fine for you and yes, it would be a big improvement just in the fact that it adds to the usable space in the viv for the frogs.


Agreed, but it is important to point out that there are NO guarantees. If you are looking for the one, single reply on how to absolutely stop the aggression, there is only one answer.
Separate them.
All of our suggestions are simply suggestions on what MAY help alleviate the aggression. It might not work. It mightwork for 2 years and then you see problems. Or, it may work beautifully.


----------



## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Agreed, but it is important to point out that there are NO guarantees. If you are looking for the one, single reply on how to absolutely stop the aggression, there is only one answer.
> Separate them.
> All of our suggestions are simply suggestions on what MAY help alleviate the aggression. It might not work. It mightwork for 2 years and then you see problems. Or, it may work beautifully.


Doug is correct. I've had a group of 4 together for a long time without a single incident of aggression--and I've been observing carefully. I just saw my first incident this week, which may be related to the initiation of breeding. Now the 2 that aren't a part of the breeding pair are in their own digs.

In addition to setting up a visual barrier, it may be beneficial to setup multiple feeding stations throughout the tank. Be sure to set some up on either side of the barrier(s). Sadly I suspect that if you see any aggression in the future, then you will be at risk of having frogs bullied into extinction.

Best of luck with these! Imitator holds a special place in my heart.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frankrom said:


> Doug... not to keep harping on it... I am just trying to make sure my next move to solve this issue is educated and has a chance as succeeding.


Yes, it has a CHANCE of succeeding but you will always have to watch them.



frankrom said:


> or is it just the best thing I could do and hope for the best...


BINGO! That's exactly it.



frankrom said:


> If the above could actually resolve the problem then great I will do it... but if the dominate one is just going to hear them calling and hunt them down regardless... then what is the point? Know what I mean?


What's the point? Because we should be striving to do everything we can to supply our frogs with a safe haven. Giving up and watching frogs get skinny and disappear, is unacceptable in my book. 

You want a for sure, dead stop the aggression solution? Separate them OR sell them and go with a frog that does better in groups. Ventrimaculata, Amazonica, Sirensis/Lamasi, Variabilis...these are all MUCH better choices of thumbnails for group settings. If you switched to any of these, you could probably disregard much of what we are suggesting, and they would still do fine.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Again thanks...

Just want to be clear here... for Doug Scott and Chris.... I do give a shit... I really do. I do not like see any animal being in a situation that is not healthy. Hence why I am trying to resolve this issue and I am insisting on getting help.

My comment about then I dont see a point in doing it... I meant if that wasn't going to help then doing that wasn't a good solution and I needed to find a BETTER solution.

None the less you all seem to be pretty confident in this so I will do it.

I find these frogs really rewarding and I do not want to ditch them simply because I cannot solve this problem.

I am also not in a position where I am going to become a serial hobbyist and get in over my head... Start turning my spare bedrooms into a frog room... get 13 tanks etc.

I love the hobby but my 100 gallon and my 10 gallon grow out tank is enough for me.

I will keep you guys posted.

Thanks for all the help everyone.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frankrom said:


> Again thanks...
> 
> Just want to be clear here... for Doug Scott and Chris.... I do give a shit... I really do. I do not like see any animal being in a situation that is not healthy. Hence why I am trying to resolve this issue and I am insisting on getting help.
> 
> ...


I don't think any of us think you don't care, Frank. We are just trying to make sure you know, there is no guaranteed solution. You do everything you can, and you continue to watch. Watch them now. Watch them 4 years from now. In particular, watch them during active breeding times.

Imitators were my first frog. I believe there was a period of time for about 2 weeks, that I was in the hobby, but did not have Imis in my care. They have always been my favorite frog and have always been in my collection. Of course, I want to see you succeed with them too, or I wouldn't be wasting my time.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I don't think any of us think you don't care, Frank. We are just trying to make sure you know, there is no guaranteed solution. You do everything you can, and you continue to watch. Watch them now. Watch them 4 years from now. In particular, watch them during active breeding times.
> 
> Imitators were my first frog. I believe there was a period of time for about 2 weeks, that I was in the hobby, but did not have Imis in my care. They have always been my favorite frog and have always been in my collection. Of course, I want to see you succeed with them too, or I wouldn't be wasting my time.


Much appreciated Doug. I love having these frogs so I do not want to give up. They are bold as hell... fun to watch. I always see them out!

I think I may have even just seen a little female female intimidation. I think i saw a female chase another female for a few inches. The one doing the chasing is the eldest and has been doing the breeding.

Argh....

Edit: Oh my tank is right behind my computer where I do most of my work... so I always see whats going on in my tank. Plus all my frogs look different so I can tell what type of personalities each frog has... who is dominate who is submissive etc. which is nice.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Doug... FYI ... i've been working on this for the last little while... 

Finally got my new shipment of stuff from Hawaiian botanicals. It also took me forever to find some wood to use to create a visual barrier. I will be working on it tonight and will post photos later! 

Stay Tuned!


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Looking forward to it, Frank.


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

this repair has me in the hole about $300..... sheesh

Good thing I handle the finances in my relationship lol


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Hey Guys....

This was a major tank repair in an attempt to solve imitator aggression issues.

It is harder to appreicate the visual barrier via pictures... as you cannot really see how deep and thick the wall is.

New slideshow - PhotoSnack (slide show via photosnack)

Added a large piece of draft wood, about 10 bromes, leaf litter, air plants, etc.

I am sure I will still have some issues but it should help quite a bit.

Feedback?

Doug?

Cheers


----------



## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Another thing that may help is creating a few cave-like areas around the tank for the frogs to hang out in. I'm not sure if a mostly arboreal species would use them but it's worth a try.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The wood does help to make better use of the negative space. The ground space still looks like one big territory. Some fallen logs could help to break up the ground space into multiple territories.


----------



## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Any updates?


----------



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Hey Venom,

Sorry have been busy....

So the updates are this....

The tank is a lot more heavily planted and made much better use of the vertical space in an attempt to create a visual barrier. 

Despite being told the best barrier would be a physical non passing barrier through barrier... that just wouldn't have worked for my tank which was already built.

None the less I did the best I could with drift wood and about 15 more bromes! The results were good... not fantastic but good.

The male on male aggression that I was observing has been basically non existence. At least to my eyes....

I also heard another frog calling... could be two more but at least with certainty I can say one more is calling.

This could be due to the fact that my younger frogs are getting older and ready to mate or it could be a result of the work I've done hard to say.

I got flooded with eggs and tadpoles after I redid my tank... when all tads and eggs turn into frogs I will have over 30 frogs!!!!!! Breeding has definitely kicked into high gear. I am starting to leave eggs and tads in the main tank in hopes to slow them down a bit.

I also going to be selling some of them in 3-6 months.

The one thing I started to notice recently was TWO FEMALES now fighting... they are doing it quite often. The one female is the CONFIRMED mate of the dominate male (dominate couple) who has been my main breeder. The other female is an up and coming breeder. She may have even laid eggs as the eggs were in a spot she is always around... and i've seen her by the eggs a few times...but cannot say for sure they are her eggs.

I may have two breeding pairs now in this tank.... but its hard to say because i've not seen another male carrying tads yet. But it is a suspicion . 

My grow out tank had 6 froglets in it at one point... removed two and added them to the main tank.. but it is hard to find the little guys in a mini vivarium which is what i created. So they are always in leaf litter or hiding in bromes so hard to get the other four out. There is one in there which has to come out as he is getting big! but he is the shyest of all my frogs.

Anyhow! I would like to see a few more frogs calling but i accepted the fact i very well may not have more than two calling. The second calls but no where near as often as the main male. I may have 3 calling but that may be a stretch (two for sure).

As some of my later tads develop and I can see the colour tones of the froglets i'll know right away if they are from another pair in tank.

I must say though I got a few REALLY cool looking froglets from my first pair. One has some really deep bronze and dark black gorgeous. 

I hope this is updated enough!

Thanks to all who helped!


----------

