# Phyllobates Terribilis Mixing



## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

I'm getting ready to build a new vivarium for some frogs and plan on getting some Phyllobates Terribilis. The vivarium is going to be AT LEAST 55 gallons hopefully bigger. But my question is, because I love all 3 morphs of the Phyllobates Terribilis, is it ok to mix the colors together? I would love to get 2 or 3 of each color morph, yellow, orange, and mint. I would really appreciate if I could get some of your guys opinions on that. I have some Bumble Bees that I have had now for about 2 years and would really like to get some more frogs. And if it comes down to that I can or should only put one color in the tank then so be it, thats fine. 

I just added 2 pics of my BB vivarium just to show you guys. during the day and then what it looks like at night for a couple of hours. (its not as bright in real life at night, my shutter speed was slowed down)

Thanks for all the help.

Tyson


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Can opened, worms everywhere!


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## jeosbo01 (Mar 1, 2004)

If it is opinions on mixing morphs you seek, I think you'll find them!!!

Mixing darts is generally frowned upon by serious keepers, and I'm sure you will get feedback that this case is no different (may in fact be worse then usual because it is diff. morphs of the same species).

A quick search of this forum will provide numerous posts on this topic...


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

if you want a real opinion, nearly everyone is opposed to mixing color morphs of the same species........because they will eventually (likely) breed, and you are creating a hybrid morph.........

Everyone is against hybrids because there are already so many cool colors of frogs available, and some of them are rare/hard to find in nature, so we'd like to keep them as they are, not make new colors......

In many reptile hobbies, hybrids are all the rage, but if you compare them (like geckos or ball pythons, for example) to frogs, the "wild type" of most of those is a much duller animal. The hybrids are "cooler" colors. With PDFs, the wild colors are incredible enough as they are, no need for new ones!

Please just get one type.


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## TyGuy (Jul 23, 2012)

Like it's said to be - opinions are like @$$holes and everyone's got one. I personally don't see the harm, however being the hobby standard I do not do it. I have 0.0.2 P. Terribilis "orange" and plan on getting a few more in the future - but would also like to have the mints and yellows too...so i'll be working on separate vivs for each color morph.


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

Yeah I knew mixing different species was a big no no but I didn't know if thats how people felt about different color morphs of the same species. As a ball python breeder and soon to be retics, it is all about the color morphs and the crazy stuff that we can put together to make even crazier colors and patterns. It is just so strange that it is so taboo to mix PDFs. Obviously mixing species I can see where you could have some big problems, not only with them possibly breeding and making hybrids but with size difference and dominants, and possibly killing in the tank. 

Its just to bad that even combining different colors of the same morph seems like just as taboo. 

New Question...

For someone that is doing this just to be entertained with having the vivarium and frogs in there house and being able to watch them, not for breeding purposes, is it still "frowned" upon? If they would end up breeding and making a hybrid of different colors of the same species, what would/could you do with them, besides keeping them all?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

The oranges and yellows are often described as coming from the same population, but the mints come from further away. I have often wondered what a yellow x mint hybrid would look like. I personally wouldn't mix them though.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

The only honorable solution is not to have any of the tadpoles develop into frogs...


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Their your frogs, do whever the hell you want with them. Just watch for aggresion, feeding issues and don`t sell the offspring if they happen to ''get busy''
You don`t have report your every move to us. If it doesn`t work out just separate them;
Have fun.

John


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## ConFuCiuZ (Jul 13, 2011)

I would not put all three morphs in the same tank. If you do, dont expect to make money on the offspring. If your in it just to display them and not make hybrids, then go for it. But eventually you most likely want to sell the offspring, so i just go with a morph. There are many threads on why you should or shouldn't mix different morphs. We aren't scientist to be experimenting with these frogs. We are hobbyist. Try your best on making a beautiful vivarium and enjoy these beautiful frogs.


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## Daleo (Jan 31, 2012)

This hobby work sort of like a museum. We want to frame the frogs for their natural beauty. In nature, these morphs are found in distinct populations, so we try preserve this "pureness"

Think of like a purebred dog. A purebred is much more desirable than a mutt.
( however i love my mixed dog  )

Again, you have the right to do whatever, but yea it's frowned upon.


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Their your frogs, do whever the hell you want with them. Just watch for aggresion, feeding issues and don`t sell the offspring if they happen to ''get busy''
> You don`t have report your every move to us. If it doesn`t work out just separate them;
> Have fun.
> 
> John


Well it looks like this is a sore subject for you. I was just looking for some opinions on what people thought about mixing the same species but different colors. I know it is not right to mix different species and I feel the same way. I could not find to much on mixing same species, different colors. Maybe if I would have searched all day long I might have found something but I though I would just ask on my own. That is what a forum is all about, learning, teaching, sharing ideas thought and whatever else. When I get my ass chewed out for a simple question like that, it doesn't make you look to good. Just saying.

And reporting my every move to you....well I don't know when I started doing that, but I thought that is also what a forum is about.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

sinsitysnakes said:


> Well it looks like this is a sore subject for you. I was just looking for some opinions on what people thought about mixing the same species but different colors. I know it is not right to mix different species and I feel the same way. I could not find to much on mixing same species, different colors. Maybe if I would have searched all day long I might have found something but I though I would just ask on my own. That is what a forum is all about, learning, teaching, sharing ideas thought and whatever else. When I get my ass chewed out for a simple question like that, it doesn't make you look to good. Just saying.
> 
> And reporting my every move to you....well I don't know when I started doing that, but I thought that is also what a forum is about.


I don't think John was chewing you out at all, but if you did search very much, you should have seen plenty of conversations (hours and hours worth of reading) about mixing, including species mixing and morph mixing......


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

illinoisfrogs said:


> I don't think John was chewing you out at all, but if you did search very much, you should have seen plenty of conversations (hours and hours worth of reading) about mixing, including species mixing and morph mixing......


I did look for a while and pretty much all I could find is about mixing species.
I am new to this forum and it is a pretty big one....I would have spend hours just trying to find the conversations, that would helped answer my question. There are so many different areas that they could have been placed in, so it was just easier to start one for my self using the specific question that I wanted answered.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Hi there fellow person from Vegas,

I am not the best user of the search feature myself, but do find that using google.. and just typing in something like "mixing colors P. terribilis" will yield a pretty good start, sometimes I add Dendroboard which helps as well. It sounds like you are just starting your build so you have plenty of time to decide what you would like to do. You are right, it is a big forum and full of opinionated people including me! Take your time and read a lot and I think you will make a good decision. 

Your leucomelas tank is very pretty. I don't keep terribilis but pretty much everything else (or so it seems), but let me know if I can help in any way.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sinsitysnakes said:


> I did look for a while and pretty much all I could find is about mixing species.
> I am new to this forum and it is a pretty big one....I would have spend hours just trying to find the conversations, that would helped answer my question. There are so many different areas that they could have been placed in, so it was just easier to start one for my self using the specific question that I wanted answered.


A small sampling... Many of the mixing threads that discuss multiple species also have discussions on morphs.... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/85358-scientific-reasons-not-mixing-frogs-2.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/71994-keeping-species-morphs-going-hobby.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/51190-morphs.html

Ed


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

sinsitysnakes said:


> Well it looks like this is a sore subject for you. I was just looking for some opinions on what people thought about mixing the same species but different colors. I know it is not right to mix different species and I feel the same way. I could not find to much on mixing same species, different colors. Maybe if I would have searched all day long I might have found something but I though I would just ask on my own. That is what a forum is all about, learning, teaching, sharing ideas thought and whatever else. When I get my ass chewed out for a simple question like that, it doesn't make you look to good. Just saying.
> 
> And reporting my every move to you....well I don't know when I started doing that, but I thought that is also what a forum is about.


Hey man, I wasn`t in a very stable frame of mind last night when I posted that. I apologize.

John


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Putting aside the mixing issue, I would go with another frog for this tank. I have 6 mints in a 4ft long tank and they seem a bit cramped. They are very large frogs and need lots of floor space.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

sinsitysnakes said:


> Yeah I knew mixing different species was a big no no ...
> New Question...
> If they would end up breeding and making a hybrid of different colors of the same species, what would/could you do with them, besides keeping them all?


A big part of the issue is that it's already basically impossible to tell where the frogs came from unless you have a solid record of their breeding history. Once you start muddying the breeding waters it can make things even worse.
From what I've read, the only responsible answer to mixing is to cull the eggs / babies. I personally would have a really hard time doing that so I don't mix.



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Their your frogs, do whever the hell you want with them. Just watch for aggresion, feeding issues and don`t sell the offspring if they happen to ''get busy''
> You don`t have report your every move to us. If it doesn`t work out just separate them;
> Have fun.
> John


This guy's a joker (and a pretty funny one, imho). That's just how he talks, try not to take it personal. I think he was just saying don't stress it too much and enjoy yourself.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

One thing that hasn't been discussed in this thread is that terribilis take 18 months to 2 years to become sexually mature. I see that as a great time frame to do a mixed morph tank until you either decide which you like best or build some new tanks (which WILL happen anyway), then they can be separated.


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Hey man, I wasn`t in a very stable frame of mind last night when I posted that. I apologize.
> 
> John


I appreciate the apology John. I was just kind of taken back for a second lol its cool though, everyone has there moments 



epiphytes etc. said:


> One thing that hasn't been discussed in this thread is that terribilis take 18 months to 2 years to become sexually mature. I see that as a great time frame to do a mixed morph tank until you either decide which you like best or build some new tanks (which WILL happen anyway), then they can be separated.


Sounds like an interesting point there. I knew they took a long time to mature, but I never really thought about keeping them together until it comes close to maturity. That would just give me a good reason to build another tank then lol These things are just too addicting haha


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

Ed said:


> A small sampling... Many of the mixing threads that discuss multiple species also have discussions on morphs....
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/85358-scientific-reasons-not-mixing-frogs-2.html
> 
> ...


Thank you for the threads! I will defiantly be reading these. Especially since my fiance has been reading those damn, 50 shades of gray books, or whatever they are called, it will now give me something to read lol

thanks agian


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## BrianWI (Feb 4, 2012)

There are varied opinions. No matter what you try, just don't pass it off as something else.


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## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

I have yellows and mints, and comparing the behavior of the two, the mints are more bold than the yellow (and the mints are younger by a month). I wouldn't mix them, but its up to you, of course. Just really watch for aggression and stress, overcompeting for food, space, etc. I can sit in front of the mint tank and count every one, especially at feed time. I feed the yellows and one MIGHT come out from under a leaf, the other usually sits under an overhanging leaf and waits for the flies to come to him. Right now each color has their own 20 gal long well planted tank. Both are well seeded with spring tails, and when I do see the yellows, they are fat and happy, but a lot more shy than the mints.


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

Froggywv said:


> I have yellows and mints, and comparing the behavior of the two, the mints are more bold than the yellow (and the mints are younger by a month). I wouldn't mix them, but its up to you, of course. Just really watch for aggression and stress, overcompeting for food, space, etc. I can sit in front of the mint tank and count every one, especially at feed time. I feed the yellows and one MIGHT come out from under a leaf, the other usually sits under an overhanging leaf and waits for the flies to come to him. Right now each color has their own 20 gal long well planted tank. Both are well seeded with spring tails, and when I do see the yellows, they are fat and happy, but a lot more shy than the mints.


Thanks for the post......


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

sinsitysnakes said:


> The vivarium is going to be AT LEAST 55 gallons hopefully bigger.



Go bigger, get creative, and divide your tank into three sections with hardscaping/planting that flows from section to section. If you take your time and really plan it out, this can be made to look like one large tank...yet your 3 morphs of Terribilis will never come in contact with one another because of the glass dividers. It's an all around win for you, the hobby, and your frogs!


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## sinsitysnakes (Apr 1, 2012)

randommind said:


> Go bigger, get creative, and divide your tank into three sections with hardscaping/planting that flows from section to section. If you take your time and really plan it out, this can be made to look like one large tank...yet your 3 morphs of Terribilis will never come in contact with one another because of the glass dividers. It's an all around win for you, the hobby, and your frogs!


Thats a really good idea.... thanks for that.


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## ExtraTerrestrial (11 mo ago)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Their your frogs, do whever the hell you want with them. Just watch for aggresion, feeding issues and don`t sell the offspring if they happen to ''get busy''
> You don`t have report your every move to us. If it doesn`t work out just separate them;
> Have fun.
> 
> John


John, I honestly couldn’t agree with you more! People get so upset and rude. I completely understand and respect the not letting any of the offspring get i to population. I strongly agree with that! Its your money, your hobby, your responsibility to care for the animals. Furthermore, there is no reason to justify your actions to anybody but your mommy, daddy, and boss. Remember, all mushrooms are edible, however some come with consequences. Enjoy hobby


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Also, it's your reputation. You're new here, you may want to consider this.

Also, digging up 10 year old threads is generally frowned upon. While doing research on old threads is a good thing, digging them up and responding on them, when most all of the original posters are quite possibly long gone, is frowned upon.

s


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