# History and Frognet/Dendroboard



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sbreland said:


> Must have been nice! You answered the next question I had... if they were here before how come nobody has em now? I suspected the facts that you eluded to are true and the comings and goings of people in the hobby and dieoffs may have ended this species in the US, at least for now, but good to hear your imput.



I'll join Chuck on his soapbox as I think I have mentioned several times in different formats that one of the problems this hobby has is a lack of history... (for example but if people want to discuss it, it should be elsewhere) is that tadpole food have gone in circles (plant based to fish food to fish food + animal protien) back to plant based (algae this time) back to fish food.... (tadpole bites....)... 

Ed


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

The question is...why has the history of the hobby been 'lost' so to speak? While one can point to individuals who have dropped out of the hobby, there are a number who have apparently been involved for years yet rarely contribute in public ways. Perhaps they give their advice in private but that can be a prescription for losing information over time.

Personally I found it quite curious that when the Care Sheet section went up on the board, most of the contributions came from relative newcomers as opposed to those with the most experience. A real opportunity to pass along knowledge yet somehow that did not come to pass.

Not assigning blame but somehow this is a hobby that at times promotes amnesia to a certain extent by ignoring or perhaps even withholding knowledge.

Bill


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

elmoisfive said:


> Personally I found it quite curious that when the Care Sheet section went up on the board, most of the contributions came from relative newcomers as opposed to those with the most experience. A real opportunity to pass along knowledge yet somehow that did not come to pass.
> 
> Not assigning blame but somehow this is a hobby that at times promotes amnesia to a certain extent by ignoring or perhaps even withholding knowledge.
> 
> Bill


Some of this has to do with the history of how DB was founded Bill. Yet another chapter in the history of the hobby that is not well known. But the bottom line is that the hobby relies on oral tradition to maintain the history so we have all of the limitations inherant in an oral tradition. Including the tendency for truth the meld with legend or mythology.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Brent,

Not having been here for the formation of the DB, I can't speak to what issues or concerns arose at that time. One would hope (perhaps naively) that the opportunity to pass on knowledge to the next generation would overcome those obstacles. 

I'll accept that there is a strong preference among some for an oral tradition in the hobby. As you note that has it own set of vulnerabilities.

I would also offer that from my limited observation (3 years) that the hobby is also split into those who freely and generously give time and information and those who either cant be bothered or actively refuse to contribute. I could say more on that latter aspect but I've already hijacked the thread enough  

Bill


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Brent,

I disagree. If you want to be involved in creating the care sheets just ask Kyle. I am sure you will be encouraged to participate.

Melissa



bbrock said:


> elmoisfive said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I found it quite curious that when the Care Sheet section went up on the board, most of the contributions came from relative newcomers as opposed to those with the most experience. A real opportunity to pass along knowledge yet somehow that did not come to pass.
> ...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> Brent,
> 
> I disagree. If you want to be involved in creating the care sheets just ask Kyle. I am sure you will be encouraged to participate.
> 
> Melissa


Hi Melissa, 

I think my comment was overly cryptic and may have been misinterpreted. I didn't mean to imply anything against DB. But you were around to know that DB was is the offspring of Frognet. Frognet got to a point where the conversation was/is dominated by more experienced froggers and the topics were too complex to interest many newer members to the community. And it appears that many of the newer members also have a preference for threaded forums rather than email lists. Ever since that time, the US frog communications have been somewhat divided. Some folks have moved completely from frognet to DB. Others straddle between the two. And many others have never come to DB for a variety of reasons. I don't mean to insinuate blame, it was just a natural process within the community which has left a bit of a legacy - both good and bad. It's simply where we are, and part of the reason some of the history of the hobby hasn't transfered. But Chuck is the supreme historian of the US hobby IMO and we are lucky that he is one of the straddlers who remains active in both groups.

And Bill is absolutely right that some people have just gone silent for a number of reasons. Okay, now I'm done hijacking the thread as well.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Brent,

Yes, many people have gone silent. There are many reasons....politics, too busy with life in general, etc... Everyone's participation wains from time to time, it is unfortunate when others "drop out" for whatever reason. 

Both forum formats have good points and bad. Personally I like the db format, but that is because I have trouble navigating frognet and remembering all the related discussions. 

Regardless of the reasons, there are always issues of new people taking on the persona of an expert and passing on information. I have dealt with many customers who have followed protocols of the supposed experts (less than 6 months experience) and only turn to me when their frogs are on their last leg. Regardless of the fact I encourage them to contact me at the first sign of trouble. 

People are going to listen to who they want to - and hear what they want to hear. Easy solutions (especially stuff that isn't their problem and appears to be an easy fix) is easier to do than going through husbandry issues in depth.

Melissa





bbrock said:


> melissa68 said:
> 
> 
> > Brent,
> ...


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Melissa,

Frognet is easy to follow once you realize that there are three revolving and oftentimes interwoven topics as the main themes. That way you can miss 90% of the posts and still follow the flow.

1) Dirt (or soil for you technical types)

2) Critters that live in dirt

3) Critters that don't live in dirt but sure would be more interesting if they did

At times someone slips up and posts about frogs and is politely referred to the DB :wink:

Bill


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

lol - I think you are right!!! 

Some of the conversations on there get downright dirty 



elmoisfive said:


> Melissa,
> 
> Frognet is easy to follow once you realize that there are three revolving and oftentimes interwoven topics as the main themes. That way you can miss 90% of the posts and still follow the flow.
> 
> ...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I never really thought about it that way, but that's pretty much dead on. I am not sure when the last time I heard a lengthy string go on in through frognet that was solely dedicated to actual frogs and not some other aspect of keeping them.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Bill,

I can answer this question, at least in part. There are really very few people who have been in the hobby 20 years or so - maybe a handful. Information lost. Before Dendroboard was Frog Net, before FrogNet was the American Dendrobatid Group, before ADG was the International Society for the Study of Dendrobatids. How many people here are aware of the ADG, much less the ISSD? Not a lot I'd imagine. Part of the lost of information is our current reliance on the Internet - if its not on the internet it doesn't exist. That's the impression I get from many newer froggers. You mention ADG, ISSD, John Uhern, Volker Ennenback and people look at your strangely. How many people ever heard of Volker Ennenback? Really I'd like to know. 

Another reason people don't post, why I rarely post, is I've had a number of people jump down my throat for saying something. I've been told I should help the hobby not ... what was it... not just sit and complain. So why bother; life is too busy. I have a group of friends across the country I deal with - I'll share any information or animals I have with them. They just have to ask (or quite often not ask). If they want something I have extra of or don't want anymore I'll give it to them. If I can't do well and breed an animal after a few years I'll give to someone who might have better luck with it. There are people who have business selling frogs, but there a lot of hobbyist that seem to be in it for the money. Wrong motivation. 

Best,

Chuck




elmoisfive said:


> The question is...why has the history of the hobby been 'lost' so to speak? While one can point to individuals who have dropped out of the hobby, there are a number who have apparently been involved for years yet rarely contribute in public ways. Perhaps they give their advice in private but that can be a prescription for losing information over time.
> l


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Chuck,

Thanks for your response. I know of Volker Ennenbach from his writing...one article on E. tricolor comes to mind. I wouldn't be too discouraged that many people aren't aware of the history/individuals from the past. This hobby seems to have a high degree of turnover and the internet is a fragile thing to maintain continuity as well.

Personally I've never read your comments as complaints and find them useful for integrating past information in particular. So please don't be put off by the nay sayers.

Look forward to meeting you at Frog Day this year.

Bill


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sbreland said:


> I never really thought about it that way, but that's pretty much dead on. I am not sure when the last time I heard a lengthy string go on in through frognet that was solely dedicated to actual frogs and not some other aspect of keeping them.


There's a solution to that. It's called posting a message. Honestly, this is a really touchy subject with me because it seems a damned if you do, and damned if you don't situation. DB was formed because many people got intimidated by the level of conversation on on frognet. Then they complained that they weren't getting the in depth topics and conversations on DB that you found on frognet. I didn't post much on DB for a very long time because I'm fully aware that I'm a large part of the problem on frognet that drove people away. The posters on frognet have dwindled to a bare handful. Most of the threads on DB have been discussed several times over in the prevous forums that Chuck mentioned. You can't blame people for not wanting to have the same conversation with themselves again and again. It takes fresh ideas and new perspectives to keep an old topic alive and interesting.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> Bill,
> 
> I can answer this question, at least in part. There are really very few people who have been in the hobby 20 years or so - maybe a handful. Information lost. Before Dendroboard was Frog Net, before FrogNet was the American Dendrobatid Group, before ADG was the International Society for the Study of Dendrobatids. How many people here are aware of the ADG, much less the ISSD? Not a lot I'd imagine. Part of the lost of information is our current reliance on the Internet - if its not on the internet it doesn't exist. That's the impression I get from many newer froggers. You mention ADG, ISSD, John Uhern, Volker Ennenback and people look at your strangely. How many people ever heard of Volker Ennenback? Really I'd like to know.


As you know, I was a member of the ADG and honestly, Volker's name sounds familiar but I couldn't have even associated it with the hobby. John Uhern? Yes. But Volker is news to me. But someday we will get you to write the history of the hobby for Leaf Litter Chuck. Even if we have to resort to blackmail ;-)


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Brent,

I was teasing about the Frognet topics. But I'm afraid my girls have the Frognet beat when it comes to dirt including their discovery (or perhaps rediscovery) of the 4th law of Soil Thermodynamics...



> The contents of an isolated mudpuddle in the backyard shall be tracked onto their mother's clean kitchen floor in direct proporation to the degree of outrage said tracking induces.


Bill


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

elmoisfive said:


> Brent,
> 
> I was teasing about the Frognet topics. But I'm afraid my girls have the Frognet beat when it comes to dirt including their discovery (or perhaps rediscovery) of the 4th law of Soil Thermodynamics...
> 
> ...


Nice quote and so true. Yes, I knew you were kidding about frognet and I even chuckled. I've just seen several unfair comments about frognet on DB and unfair comments about DB on frognet and having felt personally involved in many of the reasons the hobby parted ways, I can't help but feel pangs of regret that we may never again see a unified community of folks in all stages of the hobby as we did in the past.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

As long as we are jumping all over frognet...

One of the two things I hated about frognet (which I found before DB) was that everybody on the ol' frognet seems to have little inclination to follow the traditional courtesy rules of formatting for a mailing list (from back in the good ol' days of the mid 90's or so...). I get the digest, and some days well over 95% of the digest can be previous postings that haven't been snipped out. Not to mention that any number of times I have just given up on reading a post, because my poor brain doesn't have what it takes to figure out where in a sea of headers, footers, and unsnipped whatnot that the person's actual message is.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

*frog history*

I have all the old ISSD and ADG newsletters plus many price lists of frogs offered here in the US. I will try and post a list sometime this week.

What Chuck has said is 100% true, there have been tons of frogs that have made it here under the dump bucket ventrimaculatus, for sure uakarii, duellmani, flavovittatus, various lamasi/panguanas, amazonicus and various minyobates. I bought a lot of em. Still have a few from way back like a male billiguis. Ecuador anyone???

More later
ERic


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

bbrock said:


> sbreland said:
> 
> 
> > I never really thought about it that way, but that's pretty much dead on. I am not sure when the last time I heard a lengthy string go on in through frognet that was solely dedicated to actual frogs and not some other aspect of keeping them.
> ...


Perhaps my post was taken a bit out of context or perhaps not, but I will clarify my thoughts... Brent, Matt, and a few others post about soil, AJ and or Lars (not sure who is more obsessed with em) posts about nemerteans, Kevin posts about LEDs, etc. etc. etc.... I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the thing I have noticed is that there is a lot of discussion about the same things. Granted it's usually a new spin on a topic, but I think that it's safe to say that most of the "regulars" on frognet have their favorite topics. I always love to read about them and the new ideas that pop up in them, but inevitably what I always see happen is a thread gets beat into the ground and I think like Clayton said, it gets hard for me to read. I will say this though... there is always good info to be gleaned from frognet and I have yet to see a "can I put a luec in with my azureus" thread on there yet. I like DB's style because everything is right in front of youand you can choose what to read and you can even skip with topics if you so choose. With frognet, your inbox can be empty fro weeks on end and then be bombarded in no time. I seriously had an instance a couple of months ago where I logged on at 6AM and had 1 frognet email and came back 2 hours later and had 26! Definitely not a complaint per se, but it does make it difficult sometimes to wade through email after email rather than being able to scan like you can here. My personal feeling is that DB has a much more user friendly style and format, but gets plagued by repetitiveness because it is such a good source for new people to learn. Frognet is a great resource with great knowledge and contributors, but often gets plagued by it's user "un"friendly style and format and tendancy to take things to excess at times. I love both and hate the fact that there are people here that won't post on frognet and people on frognet that won't post on DB. It would be great if there could be a civil union of the two somehow, but because of the stark contrast of styles I doubt it will ever happen. In reply to your statement Brent "
There's a solution to that. It's called posting a message", I would, and have if I thought what I had to post was useful or could spark a good conversation. For whatever reason i have been more of a lurker and random poster on frognet because honestly I haven't found too many things that really make me want to jump up and post. I have been tempted to start a discussion a time or two, but honestly I just haven't had anything that screamed to me "this is a frognet topic, not a DB one" in quite awhile. Maybe i should change my mindset on that....


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Catfur said:


> As long as we are jumping all over frognet...
> 
> One of the two things I hated about frognet (which I found before DB) was that everybody on the ol' frognet seems to have little inclination to follow the traditional courtesy rules of formatting for a mailing list (from back in the good ol' days of the mid 90's or so...). I get the digest, and some days well over 95% of the digest can be previous postings that haven't been snipped out. Not to mention that any number of times I have just given up on reading a post, because my poor brain doesn't have what it takes to figure out where in a sea of headers, footers, and unsnipped whatnot that the person's actual message is.


That's exactly where I stand on frognet too...too much stuff to pick through...

I was/am subscribed to frognet (never posted) and was active on kingsnake before this site came along (DB is way better  ).


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: frog history*

Eric & others...

What about making electronic copies of these newsletters available for a price through TWI or some other organization. Many people would pay for the opportunity to read them....although others would just send them around. 

Just a thought, because it would be a shame to loose those, and electronic would be a nice medium to save them in.

Melis



EricM said:


> I have all the old ISSD and ADG newsletters plus many price lists of frogs offered here in the US. I will try and post a list sometime this week.
> 
> What Chuck has said is 100% true, there have been tons of frogs that have made it here under the dump bucket ventrimaculatus, for sure uakarii, duellmani, flavovittatus, various lamasi/panguanas, amazonicus and various minyobates. I bought a lot of em. Still have a few from way back like a male billiguis. Ecuador anyone???
> 
> ...


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

I was actually going through my copies of the ISSD and ADG a few weeeks back and was wondering if there was a way to share them with everyone. I also have my old BDG (British Den. Group) newsletters and 1 issue of the UEDRS (United European Dendrobate Research Society).

What are the copyright issues here? A lot of the material reflects the infancy of the hobby, but it really does make interesting reading.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I would contact the original publishers & get permissions. You could also contact Homer on this board and discuss the issues with him.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

For the ADG stuff, that should be easy, since Chuck is here. I have not heard a thing about Dale Bertram (ISSD) for years.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Dancing frogs said:


> ....... and was active on kingsnake before this site came along.......


Brian, PLEASE tell me this is a typeO. :wink: 

Rich


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Most of the BDG stuff is still available on the web at: http://www.thebdg.org/

Chuck has said before that once he sells his remaining stock of printed ADG newsletters, he will consider releasing copyrights.

Since we are airing what we hate about frognet, let me return a few shots. Not just to be crabby, but to perhaps help people understand why they don't see participation of some people on DB (a freqent complaint). The format preference works two ways. I absolutely hate the threaded forum format. Rather than having things laid out in front of you, I find I have to hunt and pick through the whole bloody forum to feel like I've seen the whole discussion. This is compounded when you live in the sticks and only have dial-up service. With an email list, you can log in, retrieve your emails, and log off while you browse the mail. The forum ties up the phone line. And although broadband has become more accessible, there are still about 25% of Americans who don't have access to DSL or cable, and satelite is quite expensive. As a result, I rarely ever visit several of the DB boards. In addition, and I've said this before, having a "Beginners" board is a bad idea (just my opinion) because it encourages beginners to hand out advice to beginners while experts ignore topics they've seen a hundred times before. Thankfully, DB has gotten much, much better about having experienced people monitor the Beginners board over the years. And the quality of DB in general is vastly improved - a fact that is not well understood by several frognet only members. For me, a mailing list is much more natural and feels more like a conversation. The point being that each format has its strengths and weaknesses so it is pretty irrelevant which we prefer or don't. What is relevant is that these preferences, in part, are responsible for a loss of institutional knowledge as some people simply don't make the switch between formats very well.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

sbreland said:


> Perhaps my post was taken a bit out of context or perhaps not, but I will clarify my thoughts... Brent, Matt, and a few others post about soil, AJ and or Lars (not sure who is more obsessed with em) posts about nemerteans, Kevin posts about LEDs, etc. etc. etc.... I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but the thing I have noticed is that there is a lot of discussion about the same things.


Stace and Clayton, what you said is true and I wouldn't mind delving into this deeper, but perhaps on a different thread if anyone is interested? I don't want to hijack this thread any farther than it already has been.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Agreed, I was going to add a "sorry for the hijack" note at the end but wasn't able to edit anymore once i thought about it (waited too long). If possible, can we split this to a separate history and frognet/DB thread?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I almost didn't notice it was split, that was fast! 

So here's the rundown of what I witnessed with respect to frognet and DB. Bear in mind I got seriously plugged into the hobby around the waning years of ADG and the early years of frognet. So Chuck and others can certainly backfill the history of how the Internet killed ADG etc.

When I started on frognet, the conversations were very much like the are now on DB. Just a different format. There were a lot of people who had been around a long time, and these were the folks who had actually developed many of the techniques that we now either mimic today, or reinvent and claim as a new innovation. It was a really cool time because these folks who are now considered the "old sages" were actively discussing a lot of topics and some of them were still engaged in giving so-called "newbie advice". Although by the time I started, I could see that some of the oldsters were becoming bored of discussing the same topics. There was a revolving door that happened. Newbies would ask questions, folks with a year or two of experience would answer the questions, and the oldsters would jump in when they saw an interesting twist or an opportunity to explore a new direction. As time went on, newbies graduated to advice givers, and advice givers graduated to topic thrashers. But the important ingredient was that almost all threads began with something like "how many different species can I keep together". It was from those simple newbie questions that complex topics about vivarium ecosystems, sustainable vivaria, microfauna production, and yes, the role of soil sprang. At some point, the revolving door stopped. Advice givers graduated to topic thrashers but newbies were intimidated to ask newby questions so the advice giver guild dissapeared. The juice that fed the topics stopped flowing.

It was then that issues with the email format were raised and Joe Hickson built DB in response. Joe invited many of the old topic thrashers, including me, to sign on as moderators on DB. This presented a personal delimma for me, and I guess probably others as well. First was the time issue because frognet was still very active and participating on both formats essentially meant doubling the amount of time spent on forums, or halving the time spent on frognet. More importantly, I'm keenly aware that I'm one of the chief topic thrashers on frognet who tends to escalate simple topics to ridiculous levels of complexity, which intimidates newbies from posting, which stops the creative juice from flowing. So why should I, or any of the other frognet topic thrashers come to DB to poison the well and repeat the same scenario? Obviously I've decided I don't care who I poison or I wouldn't be posting. There is a lot more to say but I'll try to cut it short. As I've said, there are strengths and weaknesses to each format but I think we have to be realistic that some of the folks who are namelessly derided for not participating on DB will likely never become vocal on DB for understandable reasons. And with that division, we increase the amount of historical information that is lost.


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

I wanted to throw one related observation in here. I have been on the frognet mailing list for about 4 years and I've been on this board for about 10 months. I have gained a lot more information being able to selectively weed through this board than I have from the back and forth conversations on frognet. Also, my quesitons are more readily answered on this forum as opposed to frognet, which I found to have an atmosphere of a "good Ol' boys club". I have felt the same way at shows. Out of the 3 NWFF's that I have attended, I have only been engaged in conversation by a handful of people, and it was usually the same people at each event. So there is a feeling of exclusivity in the hobby wihch I'm sure deters more newbies from progressing in the hobby itself. I felt like I almost had to nag people sometimes to get information, which I felt was odd. So to make a long story short, I too wish that more experienced froggers would chime in a bit more often (time permitting of course) because overall it will benefit our hobby to do so.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

bbrock said:


> More importantly, I'm keenly aware that I'm one of the chief topic thrashers on frognet who tends to escalate simple topics to ridiculous levels of complexity, which intimidates newbies from posting, which stops the creative juice from flowing.


I hope you see the benefit of this though Brent, you still do it on DB. There are a handful of you who elevate conversation, Kero, Ed, Rich to advanced levels. Now true, beginners might say, "that is too much to read", but it is too much for them at that time anyway. But you have guys like me, I did all of my important beginners research a year or two before I even joined DB. I have never asked if it was ok to mix my frogs, I knew that. But I love all of the advanced conversations that go on. I don't follow them all as some are beyond me so I bow out until later when I can comprehend it more. Some however I can and do follow and I have learned a great deal from you all as a result of that, and for that I thank you.

I guess I am a novice frogger, or I consider myself one, but it bugs me to no end to see brand new members running their mouths about what is a what isn't good husbandry. So I can see why Chuck or other advanced/pro froggers would just get tired of that. It is a shame though, because much information is lost. I can name probably 5 - 10 DB members that I learn 70% of my useful information from, and if they ever left I would be bummed. There aren't experienced froggers near me to learn from, I rely on the Brent's and Shawn's and Corey's to step it up.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

thetattooedone said:


> I wanted to throw one related observation in here. I have been on the frognet mailing list for about 4 years and I've been on this board for about 10 months. I have gained a lot more information being able to selectively weed through this board than I have from the back and forth conversations on frognet. Also, my quesitons are more readily answered on this forum as opposed to frognet, which I found to have an atmosphere of a "good Ol' boys club". I have felt the same way at shows. Out of the 3 NWFF's that I have attended, I have only been engaged in conversation by a handful of people, and it was usually the same people at each event. So there is a feeling of exclusivity in the hobby wihch I'm sure deters more newbies from progressing in the hobby itself. I felt like I almost had to nag people sometimes to get information, which I felt was odd. So to make a long story short, I too wish that more experienced froggers would chime in a bit more often (time permitting of course) because overall it will benefit our hobby to do so.


I don't think the elitist attitude is not as common as you perceive it to be...I know people that don't know me very well often think I have an attitude like you mention...truth is, I'm just not a people person, (wallflower).


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

You know Brent(tattooedone) I have heard a lot of people that have the same feelings as yourself. SOmetimes I think it really depends on the people you talk to. My personal experience I think has been the opposite. Many of the 'oldies' seem to be more than happy to talk frogs and fairly beginner issues. It seems to me as long as there is an openess on the beginner topics (not, I am going to mix 10 frogs in a 20 gallon regardless of what any one tells me and regardless of the effects to my frogs, exagerating a bit but you get it) most people are fairly open.

I think patience is one thing that sometimes this hobby lacks especially with new people. I think sometimes we hope that the years and years of information that these longtime hobbiests have accumulated will just download into our brains. I know I am definately a lot farther than I was a year ago, but most of these people have still forgotten more than I will ever know. Those of us newer people need to realize that sometimes it will take us a while to accumulate information. Dont assume you know everything just because you have had frogs for a month... dont assume you know everything because you have frogs for five or ten years.

I think overall, if you show a huge interest, and show many of these longtime froggers that this is not just some phase that you are going through and that you really are interested in the animals, not just for money, they will come through. Sometimes you need to have a lot of patience with them because it may take a while for them to know you are for real and warm up to you.

I think I sometimes look at it a bit like paying your dues. While this may not set well with some people, why should these people invest great amounts of time on someone that may not be in the hobby for 6 months or are just wanting to make a quick buck regardless of the frogs? If you do get good information from them, thank them for taking the time, I think it helps to know when their information is appreciated and not just shrugged off.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> as opposed to frognet, which I found to have an atmosphere of a "good Ol' boys club".


I can totally see your point here. There are "inside" jokes, past histories, etc. I would encourage you to post an introduction on Frognet and even to look at some of the introductions that are posted on Tracy's site.

Chuck, I think making the ADG newsletter accessible online would change the hobby. There is a ton of information in those newsletters. How many paper copies are left?

I also agree with Chuck's statement (can't find it to quote right now...) that some of the information withholding by the forefathers could be due to the astronomical proportion of people in darts to make (quick) money. That may seem hypocritical for me to say, but it isn't.


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

Brian, I can respect that. Not everyone is outgoing. I'm in the middle myself. I can only speak from my own experiences dealing with posting questions etc. When I first became interested in PDF's I don't think this board was around, at least I didn't find it. But I did find frognet and I felt like it was difficult to get information at times and honestly, I was getting smart ass comments from a select few. To me, regardless if it is a perceived "repetative" question or not, it was disrespectful. So My feeling was that new comers weren't all that welcome. Also, when you hold a show, which is supposed to invite more people into the hobby, I'd think that the participants should make an effort to converse with those who show up. Not just because they are vending there and it could help sales, but because these people are making an effort to come into this community and learn more about it. It doesn't do anyone any good to make a trip to their local frog fest only to feel like the vendors there aren't there to answer questions or provider information on their hobby. 

Sarah, I see your point too. I don't think that every question is owed a response. Sometimes the questions are easily answered by doing a little digging. But sometimes it has been hard to just get simple answers to questions I couldn't find answers to. For someone who doesn't know that a question has been asked a million times before, getting sarcasm or a "oh god, this again" type of response is really disheartening. When I first started getting into the frogs I got that. It pissed me off personally, but rather than let it discourage me, I stayed away from that forum and sought out other avenues to find that info. Luckily, I have found a couple great people locally who have been more than willing to help me develop my hobby. Not everyone has that luxury though, and I think that may play a part in the revolving door syndrome that plagues this hobby. 

Josh- I also agree that there are a lot of people who get into various hobbies for the potential of profit, and to the people who are here because they sincerely care about their animals, it has to be very frustrating to watch someone with fat pockets rush into a hobby and buy what they think will get the best return, only to kill or sell their animals after a few months of realizing that the husbandry requirements are more than they were prepared to commit to. This is the same story in every circle in the pet trade. Unfortunately there is bad with the good. So I can understand if people are hesitant to jump into helping new comers because it would be a huge waste of time if those individuals aren't really here because of sincere intentions. So is there an easy answer, no. Seasoned breeders don't want to waste their time with such people, and newbies want answers to the same quesitons that are asked by evey new person to the hobby. That's why I like this board in particular. You can do a lot of independant research by tagging along on posts of interest, and reading through the rest. And for the information you can't find, I'd hope that people aren't discouraged to ask for fear of those sarcastic responses, or better yet, the chastizing that sometimes goes on with certain questions.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

thetattooedone said:


> Out of the 3 NWFF's that I have attended, I have only been engaged in conversation by a handful of people, and it was usually the same people at each event. So there is a feeling of exclusivity in the hobby wihch I'm sure deters more newbies from progressing in the hobby itself. I felt like I almost had to nag people sometimes to get information, which I felt was odd. So to make a long story short, I too wish that more experienced froggers would chime in a bit more often (time permitting of course) because overall it will benefit our hobby to do so.


NWFF presents a challenge I think. I'm not the world's most extroverted guy but I do try to meet and talke to a few new people at every event I attend. But at NWFF it is hard. First, there are the old long-time friends who you want to catch up with and there isn't a lot of time to do it in. And second, NWFF has a lot of local hosts who provide bunk space for attendees so there isn't the late night gathering in the hotel lobby like you have at IAD and probably other events. It's at those gatherings that even the most quiet newcomer can absorb conversation and will have a chance to join in. NWFF is often more compressed and frantic so it is tough.

As for the ease or difficulty of getting the information from the forums. What I've tried to say is that it cuts both ways. Since this is DB, no surprise most people here prefer the threaded format. So let me speak for those who don't. Several times I've witnessed simultaneous threads on different boards where it is obvious that participants on one board are totally unaware that the same conversation is happening on another. That tells me that participation in topics is very fragmented. Recently someone indicated that TWI needed to do more to get the word out despite the fact we have posted more about TWI on DB than anywhere else which included several dozen threads. It turned out, that person just rarely visited those particular boards. Again, an indication that participation is very fragmented. Of course the benefit is that it is easy to compartmentalize topics and conversations for easier retrieval of archived information. But the bad news is that it allows many peopel to remain oblivious of some conversations and it tends to restrict the natural flow and development of a conversation from one topic into the next. With an email list at least people tend to be somewhat aware of all topics and threads that come across the list, and the threads are able to flow a bitr more freely from one subject to the next, more like a late night IAD BS session. Again, you can't say one is better than the other. They are just better and worse than each other at different things. But I'll admit that getting a digest version of a mailing list is a nightmare. And it is even worse on frognet when people don't snip the old emails and I'm as guilty as the next person about that.

I've also seen the hostility or unwelcoming atmosphere of frognet mentioned a few times and it's funny, because I've seen similar comments like that about DB. And on both forums, I've also seen praise bestowed about how welcoming and civil both communities are compared to other forums. Frognet has gone through its bad phases just as DB has. Get more than two people in a room and that is bound to happen from time to time. I've never seen a thread locked down on frognet because the flaming got out of hand though (okay, that may have been a cheap shot. But it's true). But we shouldn't confuse tersness with hostility either. That happens too. It could be that someone wants to help, but they are just stretched for time, or perhaps just tend to be brusk with their writing. And there is one last thing about frognet that began about 4-5 years ago when the advisor poster guild died out. That was the awkward silence that can seem very unwelcoming. Someone would post a question and the frequent posters would just hold back and hope some else would answer because they were trying not to dominate the list. So you got a Catch-22 where only about a half dozen people were dominating the conversation, but if they didn't answer questions, nobody did.

And lastly, I think it is wrong to thing that the oldsters don't want to participate in newby topics. As I've said before, those topics are the fuel that lead to so-called advanced topics. Rather, what the oldsters would rather do is let the simple questions get answered by the people best suited to answer them. But step only to provide an alternative viewpoint, or to develop the conversation into another area. Another way to put this is that newbies tend to want/need the "how" and "what" questions. "What should I feed them?" "How do I transfer eggs?". But those topics can often be developed into "why" questions. "Why does that work?" Those are the questions that lead to advanced understanding of these systems that then spawn a whole new level of "what" and "how".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thetattooedone said:


> Also, when you hold a show, which is supposed to invite more people into the hobby, I'd think that the participants should make an effort to converse with those who show up..


I'm not sure which shows you attended but I can say that this wouldn't have been the case at IAD or even the NY FrogDay. At every IAD I have attended there were group discussions held in the lobby each night of the event and many of the speakers came and hung out there often until into the very wee hours of the morning. I know the last two IADs I didn't go to bed until after 2 am and at the NY Frogday, a medium sized group hung out in my room the first night until the wee hours of the morning and the second night hung out in the bar until the wee hours of the morning. 
I find it a little hard to believe that similar discussions didn't occur at other frog events... 
Many of the vendors were also present and hanging out and participating in these discussions. 


Ed


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

http://www.hylaweb.org/adg - I still have a bunch of paper copies to get rid of - 100's, probably 1000's. Sorry I just checked to make sure and the site is down - I'll see if I can find it or get it back up. If anyones interested in paper copies contact me and I'll make them available at a slight charge - say $25 for the entire set, including postage. 

Some in the future (after I get rid of most of the paper copies) the ADG Newsletter will be made available on the internet for free. About half the issues have been scanned and a friend is slowly working on the other half. 

I'll touch on other comments a bit later but have to run right now.

Best,

Chuck




joshsfrogs said:


> Chuck, I think making the ADG newsletter accessible online would change the hobby. There is a ton of information in those newsletters. How many paper copies are left?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

chuckpowell said:


> Some in the future (after I get rid of most of the paper copies) the ADG Newsletter will be made available on the internet for free. About half the issues have been scanned and a friend is slowly working on the other half.


I have a large duplex document scanner with feeder tray if you need a ton of papers scanned to pdf.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

chuckpowell said:


> http://www.hylaweb.org/adg - I still have a bunch of paper copies to get rid of - 100's, probably 1000's. Sorry I just checked to make sure and the site is down - I'll see if I can find it or get it back up. If anyones interested in paper copies contact me and I'll make them available at a slight charge - say $25 for the entire set, including postage.



Hey Chuck, 
That link didn't work for me. 

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

A lot has been said already, but for me, all the forums I frequent are much friendlier to the databasing of information - although that may be based on preference. Once you're done reading the emails in your inbox.. how do you sort through them to find a reference or information that has been previously discussed? True that even with the forum search being used properly, topics are commonly distributed between multiple threads, but I still find it easier to navigate between and read posts than that of the frognet archives.

Also concerning the 'elitist' stuff, while I do think that it is around to a certain extent, I had never met Ed until FrogDay and had no problem being able to make it to his room for a crowded and friendly night of discussion, which he mentioned in an above post.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Corpus Callosum said:


> A lot has been said already, but for me, all the forums I frequent are much friendlier to the databasing of information - although that may be based on preference. Once you're done reading the emails in your inbox.. how do you sort through them to find a reference or information that has been previously discussed? True that even with the forum search being used properly, topics are commonly distributed between multiple threads, but I still find it easier to navigate between and read posts than that of the frognet archives.


Absolutely right Michael. Listserves are a bit of an archive nightmare. For conducting business in TWI, we have found that we need both formats. We use the email listservs to carry on a conversation and for quick and sure response on topics, and the threaded forum for documenting and archiving what has been said and done. I've found that if you need input on a subject, even if you send an email with a direct hyperlink to the forum thread, you still get a much spottier response than simply conducting the discussion via an email string. Again, strengths and weaknesses to each format.

Another thing that has been gnawing at me, and this is not directed at anyone in particular, is that it seems people generally wish to see more input from the mysterious wise ones. But in the next breath, are pretty quick to point out the flaws in the frognet model. Well, I don't think you are going to entice many experienced people to participate if you send a message that the relationship is one-sided. What I mean is, that no matter how long a person has been in this racket, they still seek stimulating conversation and new insights and knowledge. But if you step back and take a collective look at the vibe that comes from this discussion, it says to me that we want experienced people to come play with us. But we want them to only play by our rules in a way that WE find interesting. But please don't bore us with things that only you find interesting. Now I know that is WAY overstated. But it is a subtle undercurrent one feels. I know Kyle has worked very hard to address this by doing things like setting up the Science board. But the Science board seems to have suffered frognet syndrome. Only a small group of people seem very interested in the topics there. Well, why should we expect oldsters to participate in the Beginner and General board if we don't reciprocate?



> Also concerning the 'elitist' stuff, while I do think that it is around to a certain extent, I had never met Ed until FrogDay and had no problem being able to make it to his room for a crowded and friendly night of discussion, which he mentioned in an above post.


Just be a little cautious when Ed invites you to his room. You never know what you are getting yourself into. That man has been known to emerge from cellars wearing a blood-soaked lab coat.

But not all the events are like IAD and FD. It really depends on how many people are staying in the event hotel.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Maybe its already been suggested, if i missed it sorry. i only scanned this thread. But why not create a sticky, a kinda Dart frog hobby history/time line? Sort of like the way the care sheets have been created. Dicussing trends, importations, discoveries, husbndry advances, major figures in the hobby...stuff like that. Something that all you ol'timers  could contribute to?

Just a thought...
Dave


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> But if you step back and take a collective look at the vibe that comes from this discussion, it says to me that we want experienced people to come play with us. But we want them to only play by our rules in a way that WE find interesting. But please don't bore us with things that only you find interesting. Now I know that is WAY overstated. But it is a subtle undercurrent one feels.


You beat me to it, Brent. 

Over the last few years that I've been actively involved in each, I've noticed that there seems to be very little give/take between the two groups, with sort of a subtle "all roads lead to Dendroboard" or "all roads lead to Frognet" mentality. It would be nice to see more purposeful interaction between the two, rather than one just expecting the other to drop everything and show up in full force.


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## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

The ADG info can be found here:

http://frogday.org/adg/


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> > But if you step back and take a collective look at the vibe that comes from this discussion, it says to me that we want experienced people to come play with us. But we want them to only play by our rules in a way that WE find interesting. But please don't bore us with things that only you find interesting. Now I know that is WAY overstated. But it is a subtle undercurrent one feels.
> 
> 
> You beat me to it, Brent.
> ...



Personally I prefer frognet for a number of reasons but one is that I can access it at work (I am only permitted to have e-mail access at work) but I make a concerted effort to cross over to make sure information gets passed not only between frognet and dendroboard but between the hobby and Zoos..... 

Ed


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Personally, I have been involved in the hobby for going on ten years now but I doubt anyone knows me. I would submit to you all that most of the mature and dedicated folks in the hobby do tend to get their information from a more direct source than open forum style communities. For instance, I have found that many hobbyists rely on the breeders or advanced keepers they work with to handle the simple stuff. This is not to say that information found here in not invaluable, I am simply saying that when it comes to my frogs what better source is there than the people I know have been successful with them? 

I have followed many of the folks over here from frognet (where I never said a peep) because I personally find that in this forum all topics get at least a little feedback. It is disheartening to see the constant postings about "mixed species tanks" or "Whole collection kill/sell offs" or to see pictures enthusiastically posted that feature emaciated frogs or inadequate living conditions. Yet, at least the frogs who find themselves in the care of brand new hobbiests get a fighting chance thanks to all the good folks who post here and that is something we should not forget. Recently there was a post about frogs thought dead due to a broken window causing critically low temps. Rich and a few others managed to stop the person from discarding the frogs as dead and in effect are responsible for two more individuals remaining in the US population.

I don't post much because I don't consider myself to be the best person to address any questions. I don't work (nor have I ever) with the most cutting edge species because I feel they are better off in the hands of you veterans. Finally, on the subject of history, I would like to say that the one single element that frustrates a mid range (experience wise) hobbiest like me is that the history of the wonderful species lost to the US hobby is so difficult to access. I would love to hear what caused the near total failures of US populations of Lehmanni, Histo, some of the Pumilio morphs. In the end, though it is a hobby to most and business to a few, we are all responsible to the frogs. They are a dwindling wonder of this planet and if any information should be preserved in places like DB and frognet it should be how to avoid such wholesale failures should we ever get the chance with these rare jewels again.

Sorry for the length of this post.

Jeff


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

swampfoxjjr said:


> I don't post much because I don't consider myself to be the best person to address any questions. I don't work (nor have I ever) with the most cutting edge species because I feel they are better off in the hands of you veterans.


IMO this makes you MORE qualified to post. We could sure use more role models of folks that remain engaged and interested in the hobby for the long haul without constantly satisfying cravings to have something that nobody else does.



> Finally, on the subject of history, I would like to say that the one single element that frustrates a mid range (experience wise) hobbiest like me is that the history of the wonderful species lost to the US hobby is so difficult to access. I would love to hear what caused the near total failures of US populations of Lehmanni, Histo, some of the Pumilio morphs.


There was some info provided in this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33751





> Sorry for the length of this post.


Yeah, shame on you for being so wordy. I hope *I* never make that mistake! :wink:


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Maybe its already been suggested, if i missed it sorry. i only scanned this thread. But why not create a sticky, a kinda Dart frog hobby history/time line? Sort of like the way the care sheets have been created. Dicussing trends, importations, discoveries, husbndry advances, major figures in the hobby...stuff like that. Something that all you ol'timers  could contribute to?
> 
> Just a thought...
> Dave


I think it is a great idea but with a couple of challenges. First, it would need an editor because various people will only be able to provide snippets of history and contributions will not come in chronological order. So somebody would need to edit the material to remove redundancies and arrange the material so it is readable and useful. Second, someone would probably need to chase down many of the historians and get them to commit. We have a few of those guys posting here, but there are others that are not.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

As always Brent, thank you for your responses. I actively watched that thread for days and I too was thrilled to see some actual hard data on the earlier exportations. I guess what I meant was, even the advanced dart keepers are rather mum on failures. I can't say that I blame them as nobody is excited to share stories of disaster but they do certainly have a place in the hobby. I only meant to suggest that people who have actually kept the species I mentioned, successfully or otherwise, hold the most valuable information and it is dreadfully hard to find.

For instance, if you do a search for Lehmanni on these forums you will find a plethora of "Where can I findz da Leemannni frogs?!!?" threads but almost none that deal in any real way with expereinced froggers sharing actual hands on knowledge. To be fair, it may not exist but for those of us who entered the hobby after these species had exited it, there is no way to know that.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

With the help of Callie and Matt the ADG site is back up - http://frogday.org/adg/. Sorry for any trouble and thanks for your patience. 

After work I still hope to comment on some of the posts here, but that will have to wait.

Best,

Chuck



chuckpowell said:


> http://www.hylaweb.org/adg - I still have a bunch of paper copies to get rid of - 100's, probably 1000's. Sorry I just checked to make sure and the site is down - I'll see if I can find it or get it back up.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

This may want to be split off to another subject, but the reason you see so little information on _D. lehmanni_ is because so few have come in over the years and no one has done well with them (to my knowledge). The only breeding I've heard of is in greenhouse in Europe. Admittedly most that came into the US came in years and years ago. I heard tales of them coming in in moderate numbers in the 70's, but I only know of perhaps 3-4 importations in my 20+ years in the hobby. I've had red, orange, and yellow _D. lehmanni_ pass through my hands, but was never able to afford them and the total number of animals was less than 10. To my knowledge since that particular frog was named it has rarely been imported and when imported the number were small (less than 10 individuals, sometimes way less than 10). 

Best,

Chuck



swampfoxjjr said:


> For instance, if you do a search for Lehmanni on these forums you will find a plethora of "Where can I findz da Leemannni frogs?!!?" threads but almost none that deal in any real way with expereinced froggers sharing actual hands on knowledge. To be fair, it may not exist but for those of us who entered the hobby after these species had exited it, there is no way to know that.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Thank you for this, Chuck. I did not intend to change the vein of this thread with specifics. It was just a general statement about some lost history I find to be incredibly valuable to the hobby.

I am sad to hear you did not get a chance to work with the above species directly as I am confident you are one of the few who could have done some real good with them for the US hobby.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

First let me say WOW what a interesting thread.

Ill start with why I think DB was created and why I think it has been so successful.

Why I think DB was created:
- lack of acceptance of newbies on frognet around the time this site was created
- lack of beginner to intermediate discussions
- over moderation of kingsnake
- lack of a modern format that breaks topics down into sections, making it easier to follow and track the topics that interest you.

Why I feel it has been successful:
- Bashing is simply not allowed, this sounds simple but I have seen forum after forum fail from the trolls, and unmoderated users.
- We attempt to appeal to new and old members with the use of moderation and division of discussions into functional groups.
- A great group of users and moderators over the years.

Some of the issues that may have kept some of the "elders" away maybe resolved in the new version. The new software should allow for subscriptions either by thread, section or the whole site. This will allow email notices to be much more granular. Another aspect that will help in my eyes is the ability of subforums. For example I will be able to make a subforum by state, region or country. With the recent increase in users from other countries I have ideas to help integrated those users into the site and help promote their interests as well.

To clarify the care sheet/article creation is open to anyone, and here is the thread about how to get involved:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17092

As always, if anyone has suggestions for the future, please let me know.


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## operationbutter (Dec 24, 2007)

First, I would like to say that I hope I dont offend any of you by posting on this thread. I am a newbie to PDF's and I just joined the forum. I had been lurking for about two months before I decided to join. I am just starting the construction on my viv and haven't thought about buying frogs yet. I have been asking opinion from you "veterans" on what is best to keep in your opinions as you have all been around much longer than i have been. For everyone that has posted replies to my questions, I greatly appreciate it.

By searching around the posts I can see that there are a lot of duplicate questions asked, which after time could get very annoying. I do not belong to any other forums (db being the first) and didn't know how to use the search effectively. By asking newbie questions veterans responded with links to posts that explained almost exactly what i was asking. Without their help I would still be searching the slowest way possible  

I dont know the history (still in the research phase and will be here for a while) but I am willing to put the time and i have the patience to give the proper husbandry techniques for what is best for my frogs.

Basically in a weird round about way I am trying to say thank you to everyone that has answered my dumb questions and to also say thanks to all the people that will answer my future dumb questions. Without the veterans helping new people (either navigate around the forum, new husbandry techniques, etc.) it would be much harder to find/follow accurate information on how to take care of the frogs. Sorry for the long post but I just want everyone to know that there are people that really do appreciate the information and time that more experienced keepers offer to us. Thank you!

-Ryan


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I don't believe there is an elitist attitude in the hobby, at least not by any of the people I know. I haven't meet anyone who I consider my peer to be elitist. Maybe some of the younger guys, but I haven't run into them. Many people may not want to or have the time to sit down and write out an answer to the same old questions they've heard for 1000 times. I won't - I look at the subject of a post and if I find it interesting I'll skim the post, if its still interesting I'll read it, if I think I can add something significant I'll post, but I don't post much. 99.9% of the posts here are Dendroboard I just don't care about and I have more important things to do with my time - I could be out playing soccer! But if you contact me and are in my area and want to come by - your more than welcome and we can sit and talk about frog for hours and you can pick my brains all you want. In fact there's a meeting at my house next Saturday - come on by. 

Best,

Chuck



housevibe7 said:


> You know Brent(tattooedone) I have heard a lot of people that have the same feelings as yourself. Sometimes I think it really depends on the people you talk to. My personal experience I think has been the opposite. Many of the 'oldies' seem to be more than happy to talk frogs and fairly beginner issues. It seems to me as long as there is an openess on the beginner topics (not, I am going to mix 10 frogs in a 20 gallon regardless of what any one tells me and regardless of the effects to my frogs, exagerating a bit but you get it) most people are fairly open.
> 
> I think patience is one thing that sometimes this hobby lacks especially with new people. I think sometimes we hope that the years and years of information that these longtime hobbiests have accumulated will just download into our brains. I know I am definately a lot farther than I was a year ago, but most of these people have still forgotten more than I will ever know. Those of us newer people need to realize that sometimes it will take us a while to accumulate information. Dont assume you know everything just because you have had frogs for a month... dont assume you know everything because you have frogs for five or ten years.
> 
> ...


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

This has been an interesting thread and certainly brings some of the history and challenges to light.

I started my line of questioning more as a way of getting people to open up as opposed to taking a stance one way or another. The issue is really not Dendroboard versus Frognet but more one of how information flows and history is maintained.

Ultimately one's true legacy in most fields of endeavour can be measured not by your personal accomplishments but instead by the people you have trained and mentored to be your successors. Something that I think gets lost from time to time in peoples' thinking.

Bill


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

> Ultimately one's true legacy in most fields of endeavour can be measured not by your personal accomplishments but instead by the people you have trained and mentored to be your successors. Something that I think gets lost from time to time in peoples' thinking.


My take on all of this is that many of the old time froggers have at one point been more active at teaching and mentoring others. After awhile, it moves from an active state to a more passive state. Kind of what Chuck said. If people come asking for advice it is always there, but after answering things so many times it becomes a little difficult to keep going with a smile on your face. Since you took the time to teach people, hopefully they become the next group of teachers. Adding on their experiences to the mix.

Sometimes things get lost to memory or get misinterpreted while set into history. But at the same time a lot of new things get added. And the whole thing moves forward. It's imperfect I know. Still, with tools such frognet and DB, there's a good chance that with time, the hobby will reclaim it's history and record it. This thread is a good example of the start. 

Whether it's keeping frogs, learning about them or recording their history. There's a lot to be said for patience and tenacity in this hobby. Like Brent said, you will have to track down a lot of the historians. This is important, because everyones recollection of the early times are probably a little different. By having multiple views, I think it can be pieced together, but like I said I think this will take time.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> My take on all of this is that many of the old time froggers have at one point been more active at teaching and mentoring others. After awhile, it moves from an active state to a more passive state.


Another thing to keep in mind: even if you don't see activity from the "ol' timers" (either on Dendroboard OR Frognet) doesn't mean they are no longer involved. As has already been stated in this thread, many are actively engaged in conversation...but it's not in these sorts of venues or forums--it's individually with other hobbyiests or breeders or vendors or importers. 

IMO, authentic and lasting mentoring doesn't really happen in such a public forum like this, but rather in one-on-one style interaction and correspondence. I had been on Frognet and Dendroboard for a couple years before I ever stepped into someone's frogroom...and I would dare say the 30 minutes spent in there asking questions eclipsed all the previous time I'd spent online.



> There's a lot to be said for patience and tenacity in this hobby.


^ This is just worth being repeated.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

elmoisfive said:


> The issue is really not Dendroboard versus Frognet but more one of how information flows and history is maintained.


Exactly. At the rate technology is going there could eventually be a better way of documenting and storing information within a community than a message board. While I doubt that would happen, it's just as possible that people would move on from DB to something else.

Would the then 'DB oldtimers' who didn't convert to the new system for various reasons be viewed by members of the new system with a similar perspective of those left behind as has been stereotyped in this thread? Are these the repercussions of technological advancements within a society or online community...


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> IMO, authentic and lasting mentoring doesn't really happen in such a public forum like this, but rather in one-on-one style interaction and correspondence. I had been on Frognet and Dendroboard for a couple years before I ever stepped into someone's frogroom...and I would dare say the 30 minutes spent in there asking questions eclipsed all the previous time I'd spent online


Ron,

In general I agree but not everyone lives somwhere or is in a position to make those one-one-one interactions take place. Correspondance usually takes place as a follow-up to those sorts of personal interactions as opposed to occurring as a 'cold call' email to an experienced hobbyist.

Finally and I know that this aspect has been alluded to before on the board, we can't underestimate the fact that the up and coming generation receives and processes information in a very different way compared to days past. They've never known an era without the internet, PCs and the like. Their brains are wired differently in terms of the learning process...it's not just about being lazy and googling everything.

The forums aren't the only answer but I would submit that at least for the youngest froggers, they can do a lot more in terms of education.

Bill


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> In general I agree but not everyone lives somwhere or is in a position to make those one-one-one interactions take place. Correspondance usually takes place as a follow-up to those sorts of personal interactions as opposed to occurring as a 'cold call' email to an experienced hobbyist.


I agree with you Bill...and I'm actually one of those people (the closest hobbyist being 2.5 hours from me!). That's why, for me, things like frog shows are so important because it allows me some actual face-to-face opportunities. And as you mention, the e-mail correspondence ensues from that.



> ...we can't underestimate the fact that the up and coming generation receives and processes information in a very different way compared to days past.


Again, I completely agree with you...and am myself on the front end of that generation (sandwiched between Generations X and Y). I think for a while we will have to live in the tension of multiple methods and modes of processing information for different generations that are existing at the same time. So, for now, I don't see that an "either/or" scenario is going to help the hobby as we currently find ourselves in it...but we have to try and navigate an "and/also" landscape that is more conjunctive in its ethos. I would say the latter ethos is also more natural for this upcoming generation than it is for previous ones, given the nature of technology and the fragmented/web-like ways in which we are now interacting with it and drawing (synching) it together. But, as I said before, if younger generations can get their eyes off themselves and pull their heads from the sands of a deeply consumeristic and me-centered culture and begin looking a little more seriously at the broader picture and how it involves/affects everyone else involved...I think some incredible things could happen.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

skylsdale said:


> > In general I agree but not everyone lives somwhere or is in a position to make those one-one-one interactions take place. Correspondance usually takes place as a follow-up to those sorts of personal interactions as opposed to occurring as a 'cold call' email to an experienced hobbyist.
> 
> 
> I agree with you Bill...and I'm actually one of those people (the closest hobbyist being 2.5 hours from me!). That's why, for me, things like frog shows are so important because it allows me some actual face-to-face opportunities. And as you mention, the e-mail correspondence ensues from that.
> ...


[/quote:2tzepkhs]

Again, I completely agree with you...and am myself on the front end of that generation (sandwiched between Generations X and Y). I think for a while we will have to live in the tension of multiple methods and modes of processing information for different generations that are existing at the same time. So, for now, I don't see that an "either/or" scenario is going to help the hobby as we currently find ourselves in it...but we have to try and navigate an "and/also" landscape that is more conjunctive in its ethos. I would say the latter ethos is also more natural for this upcoming generation than it is for previous ones, given the nature of technology and the fragmented/web-like ways in which we are now interacting with it and drawing (synching) it together. But, as I said before, if younger generations can get their eyes off themselves and pull their heads from the sands of a deeply consumeristic and me-centered culture and begin looking a little more seriously at the broader picture and how it involves/affects everyone else involved...I think some incredible things could happen.

But none of this ignores the fact that, as Bob Dylan said, "the times they are a changin'..."


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