# Thumbnail as a beginner frog?



## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

I am new here and have been reading a lot on this forum in my spare time. I have not built a tank yet but have questions on thumbnails as my first frog... Is that even a good idea? I am interested in a pair of Varaderos. I would like to hear from people who have kept these types of thumbnails.

What would be some of the risks as far as starting out with this type of frog??

Thanks


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I guess that depends on what you would consider difficult. what kind of hobby background do you come from? Have you kept other reptiles or amphibians?

What about maybe reefing?

I know the majority will say start out with a larger species and will list of the more commonly available "bullet proof' frogs like azureus and luecs but why buy frogs your not interested in.

I came from a reefing background, everyone said the above things of course. 

My first frogs where Varadero's and C. Valley imis. In my opinion there was absolutly nothing difficult about keeping dart frogs other thank running out of space to put all these damn vivs.

Compared to breeding marine ornamental fish frogs are barely considered work. .


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

D3monic said:


> I guess that depends on what you would consider difficult. what kind of hobby background do you come from? Have you kept other reptiles or amphibians?
> 
> What about maybe reefing?
> 
> ...


Looks like we came from the same back ground  . I guess its better than i thought. I haven't had much experience with reptiles or amphibians. But I have a lot of experience with reefing. I worked at a shop for 2 years and have been an experienced reefer for a good 8 years. So I definitely have the right attitude towards making things right the first time. Is this about the same expense as reefing? Guess that might be to hard of a question to ask depending on what you are purchasing


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

R.variabilis said:


> Looks like we came from the same back ground  . I guess its better than i thought. I haven't had much experience with reptiles or amphibians. But I have a lot of experience with reefing. I worked at a shop for 2 years and have been an experienced reefer for a good 8 years. So I definitely have the right attitude towards making things right the first time. Is this about the same expense as reefing? Guess that might be to hard of a question to ask depending on what you are purchasing


Even if you go balls to the wall with a viv, you will still be spending conciderably less then on a reef tank of the same size.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Plants cost no where near as much as coral thats for sure. 

Frogs....well you can get a bit rediculous or you can spend $20-30 each for them. Just depends on your taste.

the part that is hard for us reefers to grasp is lighting. Frogs really do not need the amount of light we are used to using. hell a couple cfl bulbs do the trick or like on my 48" racks I use a few T8 bulbs.


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

D3monic said:


> Plants cost no where near as much as coral thats for sure.
> 
> Frogs....well you can get a bit rediculous or you can spend $20-30 each for them. Just depends on your taste.
> 
> the part that is hard for us reefers to grasp is lighting. Frogs really do not need the amount of light we are used to using. hell a couple cfl bulbs do the trick or like on my 48" racks I use a few T8 bulbs.


Yeah that was one thing I noticed right off was not having to have expensive lighting lol. Yeah the frog prices seem pretty normal considering I used to buy a few $100+ fish. Well I'm glad that the plants aren't expensive.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

I come from a reefing background too, the darts/vivs are much easier and a lot cheaper IMO. The one thing you'll need for the frogs is space. Started with a ten vert. Now we have a rack and 6-7 vivs. My reef tank don't expand and make more reef tanks out of nowhere. These vivs seem to be producing offspring some how at an alarming rate. Beware!
All in all. Do some reading and I'm sure with proper research and some preparation you'll do fine with the thumbs.


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

19jeffro83 said:


> I come from a reefing background too, the darts/vivs are much easier and a lot cheaper IMO. The one thing you'll need for the frogs is space. Started with a ten vert. Now we have a rack and 6-7 vivs. My reef tank don't expand and make more reef tanks out of nowhere. These vivs seem to be producing offspring some how at an alarming rate. Beware!
> All in all. Do some reading and I'm sure with proper research and some preparation you'll do fine with the thumbs.


Yeah I can see that being a problem....Haha! I see it now 1 tank then turns into 2 tanks and so on. At least my wife has no problem with me getting into buying some frogs. Though the fruit fly cultures might be a problem since she hates bugs with a passion lol. At least they don't fly


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

R.variabilis said:


> Yeah that was one thing I noticed right off was not having to have expensive lighting lol. Yeah the frog prices seem pretty normal considering I used to buy a few $100+ fish. Well I'm glad that the plants aren't expensive.


I also remember my reef days, spending hundreds on fish and coral every month!! 

Steve


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Another thing is the cultures are much easier too. I used to keep several strains of rotifer, copopod and phyto planktons. My daily ruitine used to take at least a hour or two just dealing with cultures and scraping the algae.

Now with spring tails, isopods and FF's I spend maybe that a week.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

Lol get the wingless and keep them in the garage/basement away from food. Luckily for me my girl loves the frogs more than I do. She had a few before we met. We recently purchased almost 20 tads and have been raising them. All of our Iquitos vents have already left the water. The leucs are on their way. What kind of thumbs where you thinking of? What size enclosure?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

R.variabilis said:


> Yeah I can see that being a problem....Haha! I see it now 1 tank then turns into 2 tanks and so on. At least my wife has no problem with me getting into buying some frogs. Though the fruit fly cultures might be a problem since she hates bugs with a passion lol. At least they don't fly


ohh but they get everywhere! I suggest spending a great deal of time researching fruit fly proofing vivs and going as overboard as possible.


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks for all the comparison. It really lets me know that its not as time consuming as reef keep.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

D3 were you breeding fish? Why did you need all the cultures? I've cultured copepods for a mandarin I had but that's a lot.


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

19jeffro83 said:


> Lol get the wingless and keep them in the garage/basement away from food. Luckily for me my girl loves the frogs more than I do. She had a few before we met. We recently purchased almost 20 tads and have been raising them. All of our Iquitos vents have already left the water. The leucs are on their way. What kind of thumbs where you thinking of? What size enclosure?


Really want some Varaderos. a pair that is. I actually saw d3monics youtube videos and was sold from then on lol. Size of the tank is another problem i'm still deciding on lol. 

Used to reefing so its hard not to want a huge tank. 

Was thinking about a 18x18x24 but i'm not totally sure yet. I want to be able to see them so I don't want to big of a tank.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

My 4 vents will be going into a 18x18x24. Sounds like a good size tank for them. Lots of space.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

19jeffro83 said:


> D3 were you breeding fish? Why did you need all the cultures? I've cultured copepods for a mandarin I had but that's a lot.


I used to breed Mandarins, scooters and was trying for pipefish...see my youtube page D3monicUrges's Channel - YouTube


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

I would really like to have 2 pairs but I'm scared that they will stress each other out or have aggression issues...


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

D3,So you were breeding mandis before ORA? Why didn't you get in the market to sell? 
I'm not sure about the species your talking about but a group in that size tank might work ok. Some one else can chime in with better info then me I'm sure. I know my vents do well in groups.


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## HaltIAmReptar (Sep 30, 2011)

When I decided to get into darts I went with a pair of Veraderos as my first frogs and honestly I'm hooked. My only regret is not building them a bigger viv right from the start. 

A years gone by and I'm planning on my 3rd viv build and getting my 2nd type of dart. You wont regret it!


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

19jeffro83 said:


> D3,So you were breeding mandis before ORA? Why didn't you get in the market to sell?
> I'm not sure about the species your talking about but a group in that size tank might work ok. Some one else can chime in with better info then me I'm sure. I know my vents do well in groups.


Because breeding is the easy part...raising the microscopic fry is another all together. ORA was the last ones to start breeding them. Matt wittenlich and Matt pederson where among the first.


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

Hey D3

didn't you start off with 2.2.0 varaderos? Have any problems with 4 in the same tank? How big is your tank by the way?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

R.variabilis said:


> Hey D3
> 
> didn't you start off with 2.2.0 varaderos? Have any problems with 4 in the same tank? How big is your tank by the way?


they turned out to be 3.1 

they did just fine until I tried seperating them. Once I figured out there was 3 males and put them back together (like two days) they started fighting like crazy


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

So would it be better to run heavy on females then? like 1.3.0 or 1.2.0?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I would say buy a trio and see how they do. While there is aggression between two males (some times) It seems breeding is a bit better when theres a little compitition in the tank. Not to say strive for that but don't fret about it. if it becomes too much you can always sell one of the males....just make sure you sell the right one. I accidently sold Zack my good male and they havent breed as good since.


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

When you split them up and then tried to put them back together whats the fighting look like? or is more of a stress thing where one hides and never comes out?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

They chase eachother around the viv and wrestle. Can get kind of violent.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

They chase eachother around the viv and wrestle. Can get kind of violent.

Ohh and my tank was a exo terra 18x18x24


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

Well thanks for the input D3. I guess I will have to decide on what type of trio to try. Hopefully whatever combination 2.1.0 or 1.2.0 works out fine. Thanks for all your input.

Anyone else have any luck with a trio of varaderos?


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## love_chariot (Sep 1, 2011)

I reefed as well and the 18x18x24 is around the same size as my larger nano cube. The intro cost so far has been far less than reefing with the cost of water supplies live sand live rock cleaner crew and then corals and fish. Also you aren't changing water frequently which is a plus. Thumbs sound great just do your research and if you can talk to a breeder and see about inspecting their set ups. I learn best from seeing great vivs in action. Going to azdr this weekend will post pics of their set ups if they'll let me


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