# Bothriechis schlegelii and PDF



## Guest (Mar 4, 2006)

I have seen several zoo/aquarium exhibits with PDF's and Golden Eyelash Vipers and I was wondering if I could combine the two? Are the zoos grosley overfunded and they want to see who would win in a fight or are these animals hardwired not to eat each other? know they are from the same region so I am hoping that it is the latter. 

Derek


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Well it's unlikely the frogs would attack the viper and I suspect the viper prefers warm blooded prey and is well fed. No zoo can afford to have a survival of the fittest exhibit...at least not by intention.

Bill


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The viper is also nocturnal and arboreal, but does eat cold blooded prey. I can't find anything about their care, so I can't comment on if they have a preference to warm or cold blooded prey.



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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

What size viv do you think you would have to keep those two in?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The one exhibit I saw at a zoo was around 6-8' in all directions.



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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

I would only recommend it if the pitviper is well fed on a consistent basis where it won't have to rely on the frogs as a last resort of food. In the wild and captivity, EPVs prefer warm-blooded animals, and also eat cold-blooded animals as anoles, tree frogs, etc. I guess zoos put two different species into exhibits because it's more attracting to the viewer's eye. As another option, you could also try Amazon Tree Boas ( _Corallus hortulanus_ ), they're a bit nippy, but are non-venomous, and are the hardiest arboreal species of the pythons and boas.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

I would also imagine that having a predator roaming around could stress the frogs out considerably, but I have no experience in that area.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

After volunteering at NAIB and seeing the pumilio breeding happily in a tank with a large female, I doubt they are "stressed" but a snake that might as well be a rock for how much it moves while they are active. Due to the different day/night activity times its less likely they'd interact, but then again I've heard of one choking on a PDF. Hmmmm.

My biggest concern is not them getting along, but the dangers of the eyelash viper. Mind you, they are a very laid back snake, but not one you should be disturbing every day as you work with the frogs. Everytime you open the tank is a risk, and taking care of the frogs means you are risking a lot more often then you would be with just the snake.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

Just to add a bit to the conversation, eyelash vipers have been known to hunt, and eat during the day. And, the *do* prefer warm blooded prey, but, they are opportunistic feeders, and will eat what comes across their paths. But, if well fed, the snakes in the exhibit shouldn't bother the PFD's. But, I wouldn't reccomend doing this in a private collection. Then again, I've never tried it myself, but I wouldn't want to.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As far as I know this only really works with a few species of PDFs. I have heard of it working with pumilio with the one aberration down at NAIB (and that was an imported pumilio so it was still hot....) and I have done it with auratus (for more than a decade). I used to have a picture of an auratus sitting on the head of a yellow eyelash feeding on fruitflies. 

The eyelash I dealt with were fed every two weeks one small mouse and did not bother the frogs. I have heard from other places that other sympatric species may not fare as well (such as azureus or tincts). You need to make sure that the eyelash is a full adult as neonates and juveniles predate heavily on frogs and this would be too great a temptation.... 
I would expect that the smaller the dart frog species the better chance of it not being a problem as there are predator/prey limits that reduce the risk of predation with mixes like imitator or vents with eyelash being less risky. 

I wouldn't try it with C. hortulana as that species predates on everything but adult emeralds are a great choice as they have shifted soley to warm blooded prey. 

Ed


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## Mikko (Sep 23, 2005)

I definately agree with hortulanus not being the best choice, in addition to previously mentioned fact, they also roam around the enclosure, including the ground, much more actively than previously mentioned species like schlegeli or caninus.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I want to say I've seen C. Caninus mixed with PDFs. It would either be at the Cincy zoo or the Frog Exhibit that was at the Newport Aquarium a couple years ago. I'm not a snake person, but that is one snake I'd love to keep.



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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've seen C. caninus in a couple different exhibits with PDFs, let me tell you it was hell on the plants. Both NAIB (two exihibits) and the Baltimore Zoo (before they closed the reptile house) had them. I also have a friend with some Surinams in with azureus and galacs.

NAIB had one exhibit with a pair of Amazon Basins in with yellowback tincs, Milky Treefrogs, and occassionally a juvenile smooth sided toad or pac man frog. The other exhibit, the larger one in the RiverForest, had galacs and castis in with amazon basins, not to mention a couple other snake species, some spiders, a juvie yellow footed tortoise, and phyllomedusa bicolor.

The Baltimore Zoo had them in an azureus exhibit with some P. hypochondrialis.

Note tho, none of these animals were neonates, but animals that had already gone thru the color change, and were more than happy to eat mice (tho I don't think this species eats herps as much as the hortulanus).


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## doncoyote (Apr 20, 2005)

KeroKero said:


> I've seen C. caninus in a couple different exhibits with PDFs, let me tell you it was hell on the plants.


Corey - would you mind elaborating a bit? I've always thought of ETBs as pretty quiet (as long as you aren't messing with them), but I've never been around 'em at night. If one were to set a viv for them - bare branches and sturdy ground/wall plants? Or a bad idea to do anything other than the bare enclosure that you often see them in?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They will move around a fair bit at night but if you use sturdy plants and branches you should be fine. 


Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The NAIB exhibit ended up being pretty bare compared to the other hidden life exhibits around it due to the pair of ETBs in the tank, the female was MASSIVE. Any time they tried to mount any plants on the branches or top, they'd either get shoved off or crushed by the snakes. The tincs didn't seem to care and were more than happy to bumble around the tank without the lushness of other tanks, but I know some PDFs would not do so well with such a bare tank.

I've seen tanks done with smaller individuals, or set up differently, where the snake had plenty of vines and branches, but the plant life was still mainly terrestrial unless the brom was large and sturdy (these broms were very large tho, bigger than what we use, the tank was massive). The plant has to be very tough, preferably able to hold the snake's weight, and very securely mounted - not so bad for juvies, but its hard to find plants that are small enough to fit in our tanks that would hold the weight of an adult female - thus why the only really nicely planted PDF/ETB tanks I've seen housed juvies rather than adults.


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*eyelash's*

i agree-i've kept eyelashes before,but they were cb and fed on pinkies(parts as babies) watch out for atheris species,if that was an option-i had a wc wa bush viper that ONLY ate frogs(sorry guys!). as for what corey said,they can be kinda boring.i will say that a yellow eyelash in a viv with pdf's would be aweosme....


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## PAULSCHUMANN (Apr 20, 2005)

I have kept a couple tanks with eyelashes and darts in them. In one tank I had a baby x-mas tree eyelash with some pumilio. Needless to say the baby ate the pumilio. Then I had an adult golden eyelash in a 90 gal viv with several auratus and they did very well. I think the baby vipers are more opportunistic when it comes to feeding, taking small frogs and lizards when they can. The adult eyelashes only seem interested in larger warm blooded prey.


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