# Problems with bromeliads??



## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Geeeeez, I'm seeing lots of threads about people having problems with their bromeliads! I didnt notice threads like that before but it seems like theres a sudden burst of them. I'm planning on loading my tank up with broms when I'm done building it. I have a wish list on tropicalplantz.com that I'm very excited about. But now having seen these threads I'm nervous! 
I plan on getting a bunch of Neos, haven't narrowed down the list just yet but I love all of these:
Cotton Candy
Old Love Letters
Red Bird
Annick
Small World
Punctatissima Yellow
Pauciflora x Kauctskyi
Manoa Beauty
Blueberry Smoothie
Little Faith

Anyone have any advice on these guys? What would be the best lighting for them? All of them will be mounted and not planted in the substrate.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

For the record i have not grown these myself but have talked to a few growers at a place called longwood gardens..
they have said 40-70% humidity with a good airflow...

medium to high light is the general lighting depending on the species....

i only grow various styles of crypanthus...Its hardy and a terrestial plant that likes high humidity and alot of light but just like all broms, water sits on the leaves to long it can rot...


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Neos will do best with as much light as possible, providing the light is not too hot. They really aren't difficult at all. Just keep their feet dryish and heads in the sun for best color.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

I do have vents on both the front and back of the tank. I will be
Whats the best way to sterilize them before putting them in the tank when I get them without damaging them?


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

a 5 minute wash in a 10% bleach solution with water. then a really good rinse


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

whitethumb said:


> a 5 minute wash in a 10% bleach solution with water. then a really good rinse


I'm scared to do that, I've seen that method mentioned before. Just seems so harsh to me... but, if it's what's suggested I'll do it. Has anyone ever lost any broms to this method?


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Neos will do best with as much light as possible, providing the light is not too hot. They really aren't difficult at all. Just keep their feet dryish and heads in the sun for best color.


Ok so you say high light, so I'm thinking T5HO bulbs, and since my tank is a cube I could do 2 bulbs on the front & 2 bulbs on the back. Would that be overkill? Should they all be around 6500k? 
I'm sorry, I've done reef tanks for 9 years, and the plants are a somewhat new thing to me. When someone says medium - high light, I'm a little lost bc I dont know whats too high lol.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I'm scared to do that, I've seen that method mentioned before. Just seems so harsh to me... but, if it's what's suggested I'll do it. Has anyone ever lost any broms to this method?


Just make sure you soak them in clean water first so they are well hydrated before you bleach dip them.You don't want to try and dip them when they are thirsty.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Ok so you say high light, so I'm thinking T5HO bulbs, and since my tank is a cube I could do 2 bulbs on the front & 2 bulbs on the back. Would that be overkill? Should they all be around 6500k?
> I'm sorry, I've done reef tanks for 9 years, and the plants are a somewhat new thing to me. When someone says medium - high light, I'm a little lost bc I dont know whats too high lol.


i have never paid attention to the wattage, i just have always gone by eye...what are the dimensions of the tank?

as far as bleach i have read this before but i dont trust bleach...i rinse mine under warm water til i feel safe with it...


If this is your first time growing broms then i would suggest getting a cheap one and get a feel for them before buying a ton....I usual start with 2 of the same new plant and test the tanks environment....


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

stephen-mcginn said:


> i have never paid attention to the wattage, i just have always gone by eye...what are the dimensions of the tank?
> 
> as far as bleach i have read this before but i dont trust bleach...i rinse mine under warm water til i feel safe with it...
> 
> ...


Measuring from the rim the tank is 24x24x24. I have a brom in one of my tanks and it does well. It's in an exo terra. I just didnt want to get exo hoods for this build I'm doing, I want to get the best light possible. 
I would be worried about just using warm water. I dont think it would kill off anything that needs to be killed off before being introduced to the viv. 
Heres a link to my build: Whitney's 60g stump build (pic heavy)


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Ok so you say high light, so I'm thinking T5HO bulbs, and since my tank is a cube I could do 2 bulbs on the front & 2 bulbs on the back. Would that be overkill? Should they all be around 6500k?
> I'm sorry, I've done reef tanks for 9 years, and the plants are a somewhat new thing to me. When someone says medium - high light, I'm a little lost bc I dont know whats too high lol.


That seems like a lot of light to me. I have a tank that is about 115 gallons and I am only running 2 HOT5 bulbs that are 48" long. The fixture is about a foot above the top as well. All of my broms are nicely colored. 

I also have a 24x18x24 exo that has a fixture for 3 CFL bulbs. I had to turn the center bulb off because it was too much light. They are really bright CFL's though. All of the broms in that tank are really nicely colored. 

I don't have much experience with broms, but I haven't had any problems. I keep the base bare. Don't wrap any moss around the bottom or anything. E-6000 glue is great for attaching them. Just make sure it cures completely. I have a huge gold fever neo that I just glued to a branch and it is going crazy. Once it took off the roots started exploding. They are several inches long now.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Ive used that E-6000 glue inthe past for securing super dense driftwood. That stuff is STRONG.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Measuring from the rim the tank is 24x24x24. I have a brom in one of my tanks and it does well. It's in an exo terra. I just didnt want to get exo hoods for this build I'm doing, I want to get the best light possible.
> I would be worried about just using warm water. I dont think it would kill off anything that needs to be killed off before being introduced to the viv.
> Heres a link to my build: Whitney's 60g stump build (pic heavy)


I have a different way then some people here...i prefer the most natural way possible with some exceptions such as mold and bloodsuckers (like lice and mites) besides that i dont worry much because its all a natural thing for darts to experience in the wild....I do however care for there safety so i usually steam my wood and use white distilled vinegar on hides, tanks, rocks, etc....i found this on my search for brom cleaning.... _Don't mix ammonia and vinegar together as one destroys the activity of the other. Remember when plants (Neoregelias) are coloured up use vinegar (actually enhances red colour and cleans calcium deposits off the leaves as well). When plants are in their greener stage use the ammonia. I often use the vinegar spray just to brighten up the plants when I am expecting brom. visitors. The other positive thing is that vinegar prevents mosquitos, strangely adult larvae don't appear bothered too much, but immature larvae don't survive._...
it was found here 
neem oil on bromeliads - Bromeliad Forum - GardenWeb
vinegar is natural and i found it kills most nasties, they are talking about broms and keeping them bright and healthy...hope this helps...

as far as lighting i would try to create a way for the light not to shine thru glass or acrylic(so the light doesnt filter) and use t5 uvb bulbs for rainforest made by zilla(usually like 25-30$)and i would use 2 of them( one every about an 1-2 inches apart in the middle......maybe make another one of those nice screen vents and fix the lights to those....


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Time out.

1) Light intensity is relative to:

--distance from light. Higher up, more light. However, some people do not realize that it does not diminish arithmetically, in other words two feet away is not 1/2 of one foot away--it is actually one quarter. So, yes, the same tank can have spots that are to high and too low, depending on:
--the varieties used. Neoregelias like more light than vrieseas and most tillandsias.

Quick review:
Full sun--outdoors at 2 PM no clouds. The kind of sun that gives us sunburn. The kind of sun that grows tomatoes, roses and dyckias, but will burn neoregelias. Full sun in say, Australia will burn neos.
Bright--Part shade outdoors, or an unobstructed south window indoors. The kind of light for cattleyas, neos, many aechmeas, some cryptanthus, mini roses, adeniums, pachypodiums. Not enough for mamillaria cacti or dyckias.
Moderate--A shaded porch outdoors, _OR_ east or west windows, or a fully unobstructed north window. East is cooler, so this is the best exposure for many tropicals. West is for succulents. Vrieseas like it bright; guzmanias are the only bromeliads that thrive in north windows (not, contrary to popular belief, nidulariums).
Low--Away from good windows, or a normal north window. For snakeplants and Aglaonemas.

My big thank is 36" long, as I use 125 w of fluorescent light. (Four T8 tubes, plus one corner basking bulb for lizards). Nice for my Vriesea lubbersii, and okay for my Neo 'Alley Cat'--but not intense enough for say, Neo 'Fireball.' The cryptanthus 12-13" below the lamps look fine. 

Your tank is a cube? Will you be using spiral CFLs? Start with 4 26 W bulbs and take it from there. You can use a light meter to measure lumens.

Color temperature is not a measure of intensity, but the proportion of reds and blues in the light. The higher the number, the whiter the light looks to the eye. ("warm" white is 2700K, cool white is 4100K, looks whiter.) For us plant growers, 5000 to 6700K is fine (Those bulbs of 10000 to 18000 K are designed to penetrate water for corals and not for terrestrial plants).

2) Mounting: Neos should be mounted higher than vrieseas or guzmanias, as they need more light (also, the latter have taller inflorescences); I like to go no higher than 3-4" from the lamps. I believe the easiest and quickest way to mount neos (and other stoloniferous plants) is to simply insert their stolons. One can also tie the stolon in a tree fork with light string or fishing monofilament line. Experienced growers have suggested using a bit of moss, as neoregelias seems to grow more vigorously with it.

I see no need to use E6000--although I do use and recommend it for mounting tillandsias (near, but not directly below the base of the plant). of course, remove all animals for 24 hours if you use any glue!

Remember, when you mount neos, try to anticipate their growth and give em room not collide with each other!

3) While they tolerate PDF tanks, neoregelias--like all bromeliads and many other epiphytes-- appreciate some air circulation. Mounting near vents, and/or a small fan helps. I use a small fan during the day--on the other side of the tank, not near the plants (the goal is to blow warm air out, not into, the tank).

In my experience, some ventilation with 1-2X misting is better than constant damp air (this may work for mosses and emersed Anubias, but neoregelias need more air!).

Hope this helps. 



LizardLicker said:


> That seems like a lot of light to me. I have a tank that is about 115 gallons and I am only running 2 HOT5 bulbs that are 48" long. The fixture is about a foot above the top as well. All of my broms are nicely colored.
> 
> I also have a 24x18x24 exo that has a fixture for 3 CFL bulbs. I had to turn the center bulb off because it was too much light. They are really bright CFL's though. All of the broms in that tank are really nicely colored.
> 
> I don't have much experience with broms, but I haven't had any problems. I keep the base bare. Don't wrap any moss around the bottom or anything. E-6000 glue is great for attaching them. Just make sure it cures completely. I have a huge gold fever neo that I just glued to a branch and it is going crazy. Once it took off the roots started exploding. They are several inches long now.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Addendum: I see now that you do not want to use the Exo Terra hood, but a T5 *HO* fixture. In that case, a 24" 2 tube fixture (the tubes are actually 22" long) should be fine. Just be sure to use "daylight" bulbs, with a color temp of 5000-6700K. 

Simply place the fixture above the plants. Meaning, if you mount the plants along the back of the tank, place the fixture directly above them. The radiant light will be quite enough for any terrestrial plants (e.g., selaginellas, episcias, cryptanthus, etc.) planted in the front. 

One aesthetic note: I see that you mentioned TEN (10) varieties of neoregelias! Well, repetition actually looks far more natural than one of each. Were it my tank, I'd go 2 or 3 varieties, 2 plants of each (From your list, I'd go punctattisima and 'Little Faith;' 'Blueberry' is a very nice plant, but the name blows) Q: Do you need a water holder for egg depositors? If so, I believe that Antone recommends Neo 'June Night.'

You can see many of them at www.fcbs.org

Gives you an idea of mature sizes!



Whitneyd88 said:


> Measuring from the rim the tank is 24x24x24. I have a brom in one of my tanks and it does well. It's in an exo terra. I just didnt want to get exo hoods for this build I'm doing, I want to get the best light possible.
> I would be worried about just using warm water. I dont think it would kill off anything that needs to be killed off before being introduced to the viv.
> Heres a link to my build: Whitney's 60g stump build (pic heavy)


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

With plants, the rule of three applies to planting vivs, just like it does in landscaping. Broms in groups of three or singly. In landscaping 2 of one type is not preferred.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

frogparty said:


> With plants, the rule of three applies to planting vivs, just like it does in landscaping. Broms in groups of three or singly. In landscaping 2 of one type is not preferred.


It actually applies to more then just landscaping. It really is a rule for any design field as it allows better feels. In fashion is it a bit eschewed but they are a bit more eccentric then the field I am in. Also it is considered the rule of odds. Any odd number of things (to a certain degree) looks better then even number of things. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. When looking at tanks I try to look at sizes to get my odd number. So in a 24x24x24 I think it would be fine to be either 5 or 7 (depends on frog species and brom size).

Not trying to be contradictory but I have been studying Interior Design for a while so thought I would add a bit ^.^


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Makes sense. I have no experience in design other than landscaping, so that's why I said it


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

With broms it's easy to get many types because there are so many that look awesome. I try to, depending on tank size and layout to get odd numbers of 2 or 3 varieties and clump them together. I think it looks more natural.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Groundhog said:


> Addendum: I see now that you do not want to use the Exo Terra hood, but a T5 *HO* fixture. In that case, a 24" 2 tube fixture (the tubes are actually 22" long) should be fine. Just be sure to use "daylight" bulbs, with a color temp of 5000-6700K.
> 
> Simply place the fixture above the plants. Meaning, if you mount the plants along the back of the tank, place the fixture directly above them. The radiant light will be quite enough for any terrestrial plants (e.g., selaginellas, episcias, cryptanthus, etc.) planted in the front.
> 
> ...



I should also mention the glass for the lid is 1/4 inch thick. And some broms will be on the back wall but some will be mounted on the stump in the middle, thats why I was thinking two 2 bulb fixtures. one on the back, one on the front. 

As far as design goes, all of the broms I've picked have green bases with warm color accents. All of which go together, except blueberry but it's really more of a purple. There are even a couple of nice more solid green broms on the list too that help to bring out the primary color base of the other broms. I see what you're saying about sticking with less of a variety and doubling up, and that is one way to do it for sure. Although I would do it in non matching numbers as mentioned above for odd numbers. I'd maybe do 2 of one, 1 of another, 3 of another. Which I may still do it that way, as I have mentioned I haven't narrowed down the list yet, I may add a second Love Letter & take away Blueberry & Little Faith (as Love Letter is bigger) or just take away Cotton Candy for another Love Letter. Again, just toying with it in my head right now, I have a while before it's ready, I gotta throw some money at some lights, ugh. lol. But I just keep picturing all of them, 1 of each, together, all mounted on the stump and back wall, and the variety of shades & patterns of pink & red & green just seem like it would be so beautiful! A hodgepodge of the beautiful variety nature offers within respect to the color wheel.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

No argument to you or Frog Party, but bear in mind:

1) Most Vivaria have limited space. I have two Cryptanthus 'Cafe au lait' on the left side of my tank-- no room for a third! They look fine--and certainly better than two different cryptanthus. (The motif is 'mercator projection'--neotropics on the left, Africa in the middle, Asia on the right 

2) Also, many neoregelias are stoloniferous plants that pup--they will fill out the space. One may have three pups, another four--you'll get your odd number in time!

3) Rule of lines: In the xeriscape below, I have a yucca planted in the tub behind the yucca in the xeriscape--the idea was to repeat the bigger yucca in the ground. A third plant would dominate the planting (make it look like "yuccas and friends...").

4) Repetition: On a porch or in a planting, two plants of the same variety can act as frames. I planted a native planting and am using _Dryopteris marginalis_ to frame it. (There is another fern to the left just outside the photo below.) Again space is finite, there is no room for a third. 

Plants are not furniture, and sometimes compromise need be made between aesthetics and what is good for the plants. As such, as long as people select for correct light tolerances, provide adequate growing space, observe the "taller in back" rule, and don't use competing colors,* I'm happy. 

In time, the plants will do their own decorating...

*Examples of competing colors: Please, for the sake of civilization, do not use those red Aglaonemas or variegated ficus trees in a vivarium--they visually compete with the animals. I have seen hybrid rex begonias in tanks that just don't feel right. We all want color--but red cryptanthus together with pink episcias and hypoestes and red fittonias and dyed blue orchids and yellow-margined whatever simply does not look good, much less natural (And don't get me started on colored gravels in aquaria...) 



VenomR00 said:


> It actually applies to more then just landscaping. It really is a rule for any design field as it allows better feels. In fashion is it a bit eschewed but they are a bit more eccentric then the field I am in. Also it is considered the rule of odds. Any odd number of things (to a certain degree) looks better then even number of things. 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. When looking at tanks I try to look at sizes to get my odd number. So in a 24x24x24 I think it would be fine to be either 5 or 7 (depends on frog species and brom size).
> 
> Not trying to be contradictory but I have been studying Interior Design for a while so thought I would add a bit ^.^


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

No offense taken of course!! 
I feel the "landscaping" of it is too opinionated to set a rule as far as what looks good together. 
And I definitely will be taking into account the adult size of the broms. That's most important. As far as the pups go. If my tank fills out and I've no room, I'll simply remove & grow the pups elsewhere. Maybe give them to someone else who would like them. And when my broms flower, I'll keep some pups outside the tank to replace them with as the adult starts it's downward spiral.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Groundhog said:


> Time out.
> 
> 1) Light intensity is relative to:
> 
> ...


 I am not sure why you quoted me... My lighting and E6000 have both worked very well for me. Am I missing something? The glue worked perfectly for the situation I used it for. Need is a relative term.... Tying my large neo would not have worked. It was merely a suggestion, not a requirement for growth. 

All I was doing was stating the circumstances that my broms are growing very well in.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

LizardLicker said:


> I am not sure why you quoted me... My lighting and E6000 have both worked very well for me. Am I missing something? The glue worked perfectly for the situation I used it for. Need is a relative term.... Tying my large neo would not have worked. It was merely a suggestion, not a requirement for growth.
> 
> All I was doing was stating the circumstances that my broms are growing very well in.


Quoting does not necessarily mean disagreement, but in this case I wanted to comment and follow up on three points:

1) The lighting review was intended for the OP, who stated she was not clear on terms such as bright light. moderate light, etc.

2) Many neoregelias often do benefit from some sphagnum moss at the base (as opposed to say, aechmeas or tillandsias). Of course, this can depend on the relative humidity of the enclosure; some PDF tanks can be a bit too humid and stuffy for many bromeliads.

3) The only place I may disagree is E6000. (As for need being a "relative term"--sometimes yes, sometimes no.) All I said was that I personally see no need to use E6000 for tank bromeliads. I prefer to tie or wire tank bromeliads, or to insert pups that possess stolons. E6000 can be corrosive, and many beginners sometimes make the mistake of gluing the base of the plant rather than right next to it (Gluing the base itself can make it more difficult for the roots to grow through and attach). It is true that E6000 is a strong glue, and I do use it for tillandsias. 

There is nothing I wrote that contradicts established accepted horticultural practice. But again, my quoting you was not intended as any kind of dis.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Should have been a bit more clear because I wasn't disagreeing with what you said but rather just elaborating on the concept give by Frog Party.



Groundhog said:


> No argument to you or Frog Party, but bear in mind:
> 
> 1) Most Vivaria have limited space. I have two Cryptanthus 'Cafe au lait' on the left side of my tank-- no room for a third! They look fine--and certainly better than two different cryptanthus. (The motif is 'mercator projection'--neotropics on the left, Africa in the middle, Asia on the right When I was stipulating the rule of odds I was not referring to the same plant being repeated over and over, or utilizing singles of one species but the overall amount of plants being utilized be an odd amount.
> 
> ...


I understand where you are coming from groundhog and I by no way have more experience when coming to plants, however design is design, and each field within design is specialized. Rules cross boundaries all the time. That being said though, the problem with aesthetics is that each to their own. You don't design around the yourself but rather the individual that is you are working for. Visually something can be appealing to one, but is not to another. If Whitney and I sat down (metaphorically) and chatted I could design something specific to her needs, however, if you and I sat down and did the same the result would be completely different, yet both of you would end up being happy. I agree that the discussion on what is good, or what is wrong, for the plant's life has not been discussed due to the fact I was not trying to reference it. I knew you had already done a wonderful job at doing that. I don't want to seem rude in anyway just wanted to state what I was trying to say.


Also the only thing I would disagree on is the sphagnum statement because most broms will rot out two fast in our environment's (even ones with fan's unless positioned directly underneath) just because the stolon's become to moist and breaks it down to fast.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

What if I added a 14k or 20k bulb? I dont know if I'd even light the look of it over the tank but would it be beneficial? 
I really think I'm going to do 2 T5 fixtures. one of the back & one on the front to make sure each brom gets even light because some will be mounted on the front of the stump and that would block them from the light on the back end of the lid. But I could add a strip of LEDS, & mix up the T5's maybe do one bulb in each fixture 6500k, & 1 bulb in each 10k


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## Deanos (Oct 16, 2012)

14k/20k bulbs are for reef applications in growing corals. I'm pretty sure they would stunt the growth of vivarium/terrarium plants.

p.s. I'm a former marine reefer


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

Tropical plants has amazing broms. 2 HO t5s are very adequate for what you're doing. I found them cheap on eBay. 

The broms will be bare root when you receive them. Submerge them in water for 5 mins then a 10% bleach solution for 5 mins then rinse thoroughly with dechlorinated water. Really flush the axils out to get the bleach

I rinse the axils of my broms weekly with spring water to flush out all the stagnant water and soil tracked in by the frogs. I haven't had any problems with my broms so far. I hope this helps you a bit. And good luck with the rest of the build.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Deanos said:


> 14k/20k bulbs are for reef applications in growing corals. I'm pretty sure they would stunt the growth of vivarium/terrarium plants.
> 
> p.s. I'm a former marine reefer


I know lol. I've been in the marine aquarium hobby for 9 years. Went to school for aquaculture & worked for ORA. I'm just not familiar with regular plants. I know those lights are made to penetrate water, just didnt know if the variety of spectrum would be beneficial for them. 
Just curious why you would think it would stunt their growth?


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

GP dynamite said:


> Tropical plants has amazing broms. 2 HO t5s are very adequate for what you're doing. I found them cheap on eBay.
> 
> The broms will be bare root when you receive them. Submerge them in water for 5 mins then a 10% bleach solution for 5 mins then rinse thoroughly with dechlorinated water. Really flush the axils out to get the bleach
> 
> I rinse the axils of my broms weekly with spring water to flush out all the stagnant water and soil tracked in by the frogs. I haven't had any problems with my broms so far. I hope this helps you a bit. And good luck with the rest of the build.


I'm definitely going through tropical plantz for the broms! Thanks for the advice!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

As I tried to explain in a previous post, the color temp for tropical set ups should be in the "daylight" range of 5000 to 6700 degrees kelvin. Those high bulbs of 18000 or 20K are designed to penetrate water for corals. Many serious horticulturists believe that over time, they may cause land plants to have corrupted growth. Also, I would be very hesitant to use them for fear of what they may do vertebrate eyes. I don't think we're supposed to look directly at them, so why should amphibians?

Besides plants and animals look more vibrant and natural in the daylight ranges!

I suggest that you google "color temperatures and plants" and/or "color temperatures and reptiles." You will see that the consensus is 5000 to 6700K.

P. S. As I'm in a jocular mood: I know there is going to be some comedian writing in to say his tank uses 8000 or 1000K bulbs with no (perceived) ill effects. Yeah, and we all know an 88 yr old who smokes three packs a day. An anecdote or two don't invalidate the consensus.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

1) No argument, here brother. And I thank you for the detailed exposition. The main point I was trying to make was that sometimes we have to compromise between plant welfare and design principle. I try, when possible to go with plant welfare (although constantly trimming the #%[email protected] episcia and pellionia can be very trying....)

A friend told me I could never be a professional gardener, cause I cry inside whenever bulbs are replaced for a "new motif," or they remove the hydrangea cause the person paying the bills wants a rhododendron.

I do not think myself a PETA person for plants--just ask my arugula--but they are living things and should be respected.

2) Regarding moss: There is certainly a difference between growing in an enclosed tank rather than a greenhouse with fans! I only grow neoregelias on an open porch, and they really do seem to acclimate faster with moss (As opposed to my canistropsis and aechmea, which don't give a #@$!%...)

Also, my vivarium is not a PDF tank, it is half-screened. Maybe that is why the plants that do best are the bromeliads




VenomR00 said:


> Should have been a bit more clear because I wasn't disagreeing with what you said but rather just elaborating on the concept give by Frog Party.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I do wish to disagree. Not with utilizing really high kelvins but rather with only utilizing just one form strength in bulb.

All plants absorb some form of color through our lights. Yes 6500k is the one all around utilized by plants, however, if you wish to get stronger color in plants you should be mixing the color of bulb which controls the kelvins.

Since each plant absorbs different amount's of light that means ones that need lower light will absorb a lower kelvin far better then one that needs a higher kelvin. I in no way shape or form believe we should stick 4 10000k over a tank, I do however feel that if you have the ability to stick more light fixtures over a tank you should be varying the amount of what kelvin bulbs you should be utilizing.

I.E. 4 fixtures, outsides should be 6500k while the interior (dependent on the plants growing, and placement of plants), you should have varied bulbs with different kelvins.

Given I do believe LED's to be a bit better then Floursecents mainly because they give a better light dispersion then floursecents.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Of course this is true for the _plants_. Some serious plant people still swear by combos of warm white and cool white tubes. However, from what I understand, 5000 to 6700K remains the recommended range for herps. 

But for many people it is a matter of $$. A lot of terrarium/vivarium keeper start in their teens and I don't want to give the impression this is a rich man's hobby (_cf _reef keeping!). 

(Political/ideological/editorial comment: Yeah, I do believe that hobbies like this should be more accessible to the working class, not just the boys from Eton.)

So I don't think a person is doing their tank any real harm with say, one 5500 K and one 6700K, T8 or T5 tubes. If it is bright enough, most of the plants we grow will do fine. (Full disclosure: I use two Tropic Sun 5500K and two Repti Glo 2.0 6700K; thought about switching one long tube to 5.0, as I have baskers).

We've seen it before: Somebody comes on here with: "I've been keeping vivaria for eight years. Now I find out I don't have the ULTRATECH 3000 combo vitamin D3/co2/UVB injector! But I can't afford it now! Help--I don't want my frogs to die!!" 

Who was it who said that no one ever went broke underestimating the public?



VenomR00 said:


> I do wish to disagree. Not with utilizing really high kelvins but rather with only utilizing just one form strength in bulb.
> 
> All plants absorb some form of color through our lights. Yes 6500k is the one all around utilized by plants, however, if you wish to get stronger color in plants you should be mixing the color of bulb which controls the kelvins.
> 
> ...


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Groundhog said:


> As I tried to explain in a previous post, the color temp for tropical set ups should be in the "daylight" range of 5000 to 6700 degrees kelvin. Those high bulbs of 18000 or 20K are designed to penetrate water for corals. Many serious horticulturists believe that over time, they may cause land plants to have corrupted growth. Also, I would be very hesitant to use them for fear of what they may do vertebrate eyes. I don't think we're supposed to look directly at them, so why should amphibians?
> 
> Besides plants and animals look more vibrant and natural in the daylight ranges!
> 
> ...


Right but in your post:


> Color temperature is not a measure of intensity, but the proportion of reds and blues in the light. The higher the number, the whiter the light looks to the eye. ("warm" white is 2700K, cool white is 4100K, looks whiter.) For us plant growers, 5000 to 6700K is fine (Those bulbs of 10000 to 18000 K are designed to penetrate water for corals and not for terrestrial plants).


You didnt mention that it was bad for the plants, just that they were designed to penetrate water, which is something that I'm aware of, just wasnt aware they would actually damage the plants is all so thats why I asked. I really dont think it would hurt their eyes as it doesnt seem to bother the fish, and I have seen people who have actinics on their tanks at night, whether it's LEDs or whatever, its actinic lighting (20k).


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## Deanos (Oct 16, 2012)

Actinic lighting is used in reefs to replicate the only light waves to reach the depths some corals/fish are living at. Also to accentuate the fluorescence of corals/fish. There is no equivalent for foliage. Even plants living near the ground of a thickly planted jungle are still receiving "daylight" (5000-6700k), just at lower intensities.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Try the following: Go get a couple of 18000to 20K tubes and use them in your kitchen or bathroom for a couple of days--tell us how you like it. 

It will look mad harsh... In addition, from what I understand, one is not supposed to look directly at them (or actinics) for any real length of time.

Now, daylight tubes (which means 5000 to 6700K) will also look harsh--if you look at the lamp. The purpose of daylight bulbs is they make the illuminated object(s) look more natural.

When Verilux and Vitalite came out with these bulbs 25-30 years ago, it was found that their natural color temps:

--were beneficial for indoor plant health, and made the plants look more natural;
--produced a bit of UVA, which turned out to have discernible positive health effects on many captive herps. (Which is why these bulbs mentioned it on their packaging over 20 years ago! Please understand, this was amazing--being able to purchase bulbs in a hardware store that said "great for reptiles.")

Which is why, to this day, whatever the design (tube, CFL) or maker (Zoo med, Exo Terra) everyone offers daylight tubes. In addition, they offer bulbs with higher percentages of UVB, essential for many basking reptiles. But the tradeoff is that these bulbs look bluish and dull to the eye, so they are to be used in conjunction with a daylight tubes.



Whitneyd88 said:


> Right but in your post:
> 
> 
> You didnt mention that it was bad for the plants, just that they were designed to penetrate water, which is something that I'm aware of, just wasnt aware they would actually damage the plants is all so thats why I asked. I really dont think it would hurt their eyes as it doesnt seem to bother the fish, and I have seen people who have actinics on their tanks at night, whether it's LEDs or whatever, its actinic lighting (20k).


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Excellent, point Dean. I think some people make the mistake of conflating higher color temp with higher intensity, which of course is not the case. Now, it is true that if one looks at a a 6700K and say, a 4100K bulb (of = wattage) side by side, the former will look "whiter"and a bit more intense. But it is actually not producing more lumens! 



Deanos said:


> Actinic lighting is used in reefs to replicate the only light waves to reach the depths some corals/fish are living at. Also to accentuate the fluorescence of corals/fish. There is no equivalent for foliage. Even plants living near the ground of a thickly planted jungle are still receiving "daylight" (5000-6700k), just at lower intensities.


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## arian1123 (Mar 5, 2013)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Geeeeez, I'm seeing lots of threads about people having problems with their bromeliads! I didnt notice threads like that before but it seems like theres a sudden burst of them. I'm planning on loading my tank up with broms when I'm done building it. I have a wish list on tropicalplantz.com that I'm very excited about. But now having seen these threads I'm nervous!
> I plan on getting a bunch of Neos, haven't narrowed down the list just yet but I love all of these:
> Cotton Candy
> Old Love Letters
> ...


For the neos make sure you empty out the water it collects, periodically. While i read the like to have water in them, after a while it begins to rot. That happend to my first neo i had so definetly watch out for that!


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Most Bromeliads actually need a drying out period, so you should always let the centers dry out a few days after they have no more water, then refill.


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