# Next Breeding Project



## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

Got the Redheads going well so I needed a new challenge so here it is!

This is the male - unfortunately the flash has washed out the colour somewhat.









Oophaga sylvatica 'Whitefoot'

I need to get a decent shot of the female who appears to be gravid at the moment. I've had them several months, they were a young CB 'suspected' pair which lucily turned out to be correct. The female has laid but nothing came from the clutch. I have a deep layer of magnolia and other tropical leaves in their viv and this is where the eggs where deposited. I have just finished refurbishing their viv adding a few more suitable broms.
This is def one species that in my opinion benefit from 'field plankton'. Hopefully this feeder diversity will help towards succesful breeding soon.
As soon as I get a decent photo of the female I'll update the thread.

Regards
Graham


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

dirty bastard. Im super jealous! Good luck with them, you obviously have the touch


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Man that's a hot frog.....JEALOUS!


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Very nice, you know your just asking for Fred to come back........I havent seen a nicer frog posted here. Lucky man.

Michael


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

Thanks guys! To be honest the photos just don't do them justice - they are such stunning frogs in real life.

here's a photo of their viv - sorry about the reflection - I'll get some better shots when I have a minute - you can see the deep leaf litter at the back. The viv is a 50cm cube.









Here's another shot of the male that shows his colour better.









and finally a shot of the female 'peeping' out from her jungle pod. She has a lot less black marbling than the male.









Enjoy!
Regards
Graham


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

OK Graham, looks like we got a lotta work on the horizon........................


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

You bastard... This is just about my dream.... Thanks for showing me how pathetic my frog collection is


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

Graham, thanks for sharing! Good luck!


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Stunning frogs, thanks for sharing. Good luck breeding them, I'd love to see more of these!
Bryan


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## botanyboy03 (Apr 18, 2009)

WOw, those are some stunning frogs. I'm insanely jealous, jk.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Well. I'm officially moving to Europe.


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## slim (Sep 1, 2008)

Nice frogs and viv. I love the rock work, looks very natural. What material did you use for the background?


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

The rock work looks very natural because it is very natural - why compete with mother nature when she does it so well! I collected the stones from the stream that runs by our cottage and placed them in a similar pattern in the viv as I found them. 

The background on this viv is 2 inch polystyrene sheet 'landscaped' by picking out areas to give an overall variation in depth and then painted black (using non toxic acrylic paint). It works just the same as foam but much easier to work as you can do all the work outside of the viv and just fix it on with silicone when it's finished. Then its really easy to push brom stolons and other decor into it.

Regards
Graham


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Utterly beautiful Graham,ha and the viv too,nice to see them at last. when we last talked you spoke of making adjustments for them could you ellucidate for me?Are these related to Marc's? As i have been fortunate enough to stand in wonderment watching those. although they seem a touch darker red is that the camera playing tricks? One day when i have done enough graft and homework one day,we'll do right by these much to learn much to do but one day!!!
belucky mate
Stu


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Oh Graham you all ready know i utilise a lot of wild grub could you give details on your methods of harvest please
thanks again 
Stu


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

Hi Stu,
no these are unrelated to Marc's - we already have that sorted once we have breeding underway and your right about the colour - mine are blood red too but the camera never gets their colour right.
Viv wise it was tweaking leaf litter areas, hides and adding more broms.

Wild food is collected using standard invert sampling methods
Trees and shrubs - beating tray.
Grassland - sweep net.
Standing and fallen deadwood - pooter.


I also sometimes collect any suitable coleoptera if I've been moth trapping overnight.

Regards
Graham


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

when your ready to send juveniles my way let me know, my entire collection is yours 

james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

I'll trade you some anthonyi froglets for some of them...


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i expect they would command prices at or above $1500ea USD (due to their rarity in the US and their distribution in their native range) so you'd need a LOT of anthonyi 

this is without question my absolute favorite amphibian. its incredibly stunning, and the specimens with higher amounts of white are even more spectacular. 

keep up the good work and PLEASE get these breeding!

james


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Well. I'd better go tell mine to start getting to work. haha. Not far from having an army of them to take over the world! hahaha. Are there sylvaticas in the US?


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Mworks said:


> Hi Stu,
> no these are unrelated to Marc's - we already have that sorted once we have breeding underway and your right about the colour - mine are blood red too but the camera never gets their colour right.
> Viv wise it was tweaking leaf litter areas, hides and adding more broms.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Graham,do you have a pic of the viv before tweaking?
Thats great news that they are different lines,this bodes really well for the future that these are in both your capable hands,and are unrelated!!
Thanks for the tips on grub do you utilise a seive for selecting suitable sizes and what would its dimensions be? Sorry to be slightly off the whitefoots but its my humble opinion that this wild grub is so so important,i want to be able to utiise this resource to very best advantage. Not yet tried the beating tray,but will very soon!
regards
Stu
Thanks for the help


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

I'll see if I can dig a photo out when I get a minute. 

The trusty pooter is what I use for size and species selection from sweepnet, mothtrap and beating tray - just so easy to use. 

Regards
Graham


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## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

Mapp said:


> Well. I'm officially moving to Europe.


In Europe it can be found on the black market, i guess in the US it would be the same as around here.
If i'll put this up for sale around Holland,
i might just get a visit resulting in losing my complete collection


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

there are frogs in the US from old stock imported (apparently directly from colombia) when export was allowed (15-20 years ago), so proving that an individual is of illegal origin would be difficult. 

there are at least 2 pairs that ive heard of in the US, and i will disclose no more than that so no PMs. 

james


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## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

I'm aware of the imports, before and under CITES.
However, they are treated as illegal in Europe.
I'll bet he can't just put offspring for sale around here on a fair without being taken from him.

With all the smuggling going on, they won't just accept any story you tell them.
All of the lehmani, histrionica etc. are concidered illegal here.
Mostly because of their status and high smuggling rates.

I'm wondering why they are only offered on the black market otherwise,
prizes are insane, so who doesn't wan't to sell them with papers?
They would be even higher prized with the right paperwork, especially for the people to get all of their illegal specimens legal.
Look at the benedicta sold here for around $500 with papers, while smuggled animals where only a fifth of that prize.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

sorry to get so far off topic but,

in the case of the US, ive NEVER seen CITES papers for a frog, regardless of rarity, and its extremely uncommon to get any paperwork whatsoever (even a receipt of purchase) for all species whether the population is very stable or critically endangered. there have been many a heated debate over importation of species (despite sustainable collection having been suggested in some instances) because of the complete inability to legitimately track the lineage of any frog after initial legal import. the ONLY truly illegal frogs (criminally punishable) therefore are those which have never been legally imported at any time. of course there is the rare case of being caught in the act of transporting illegal animals or being found intentionally misinterpreting animals identity or origin. its not the best system, but its not the worst either, and while i do see the need to control smuggling when possible, i also believe that a 0 tolerance stance helps no one.

james


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

wesleybrouwer said:


> However, they are treated as illegal in Europe.
> 
> With all the smuggling going on, they won't just accept any story you tell them.
> All of the lehmani, histrionica etc. are concidered illegal here.
> ...


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Mworks said:


> Perhaps you would comment on some other frogs that have a 'shadow' over their origins and are possibly 'illegal' in Holland but commonly kept and bred here in the UK -
> 
> Ranitomeya benedicta
> Ranitomeya fantastica
> ...


There are definitely legal lines of benedicta and fantastica. They've been imported from UE (although not the Veradero fantastica that dendrobates.org mentions yet). I'm pretty sure vanzolinii have also been imported by UE, although in much smaller quantities. My understanding is that UE ships globally and so it would not surprise me if some of these frogs have come to the EU which would increase the legitimacy of some of their frogs.... Although admittedly there are a number of smuggled lines of these frogs as well.

Despite the legality issues your frog is certainly stunning.


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

Noone is to judge whether a species is legal or illegal but the officials in anyones country. Dendrobatidae Nederland as a froggroup does not judge about the legal status of frogs. The legal status is always dependant on the keepers ability to prove the legality of any individual frog to the officials in his or her country.

Although Wesley's avatar is the logo of our froggroup, he is not a board member of Dendrobatidae Nederland, thus does not represent our view on this subject.

The thing Wesley might be trying to say is that Dutch officials do not recognize the validity of papers for histrionicus, lehmanni, sylvaticus and a couple of other species. In their opinion old papers are being used to legalise recently smuggled frogs. This has obviously been the case. So now it's up to the hobbyists themselves to believe one or another...


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

Mworks said:


> Excidobates mysteriosus
> Dendrobates tinctorius - Pic Matecho and Mont la Fumee morphs
> Oophaga vincentei
> Ranitomeya benedicta
> ...


Only E. mysteriosus and O. vicentei are considered illegal species over here, for the obvious reason that none have ever been legally exported from the country of origin, thus can never be legal in any country according the Dutch officials. But views on this subject seem to differ between European countries. Many of which also consider them illegal, but just don't enforce upon it. 

This is not the case with the other mentioned species, but as always you will have to be able to show that the individuals you keep are of legal origin.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Shockfrog said:


> This is not the case with the other mentioned species, but as always you will have to be able to show that the individuals you keep are of legal origin.


I know you're talking about the Netherlands, but I honestly can't count on one the hand people I know in the US who can show proof that their frogs are of legal origin (UE frogs notwithstanding).


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

Yes this is often the case over here aswell. Nonetheless it is the hobbyists responsibility.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah not really a realistic one though.


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Shockfrog said:


> Yes this is often the case over here aswell. Nonetheless it is the hobbyists responsibility.


That is not true legally speaking. In US law, the prosecution would have to proof beyond a reasonable doubt that you had committed a crime. The fact that frogs did legally enter the country at some point in time is more than enough to provide that to any competent defense attorney.


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## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

Maybe i didn't put it out clearly.
It was a response on wanting to live in Europe.
I know UK, Germany,Denmark and France for example aren't as strict as Holland is towards some species.
So i had to name more clearly i'm talking about Holland.
I'm sure you can't put them on a table, in let's say, Houten.

It's not that i am calling you a smuggler or something,
but let's face it, how many of them are really of the line-age of the legally imported specimens?
Smuggling still is the order of the day.
By allowing them all, they make it nearly impossible to control the newly smuggled flow of animals, of wich most are under a lot of pressure in their natural range already.

However some recent exports occured from Germany to the US.
The Dutch officials are not buying it, so they state that all of the lehmani, histrionica etc. are illegal.

Can't find myself in all of their reasonings, but we have to deal with it.
What happens when there will be re-exports from the US to Germany... 
i don't know, i guess the Dutch officials have to accept the renewed CITES papers then.

Altough we are not the ones implementing the rules,
i think it's the responsibility of every hobbyist, not to buy illegally (doubtfully) obtained animals, after all, it's the market making the smuggling worth while.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vermfly said:


> That is not true legally speaking. In US law, the prosecution would have to proof beyond a reasonable doubt that you had committed a crime. The fact that frogs did legally enter the country at some point in time is more than enough to provide that to any competent defense attorney.


Ignoring the cost that it took to defend the purchase... 

Also there are civil penalties under the Lacey Act which can be very hefty and the burden of proof is much less....


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Graham, what's with the female's front feet? it looks like she has no toes.


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

tclipse said:


> Graham, what's with the female's front feet? it looks like she has no toes.


Hi,
I see what you mean but she def has a full set toes - the black tips to her toes have merged into the black of the interior of the jungle pod.

I'll get a better shot of her when she gives me a chance. She 'legs it' when ever she sees a camera lens approaching.

Regards
Graham


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Ah yeah, I can see them from my desktop pc just fine... must have left my laptop on low contrast/"night view" mode from a late night. 

Beautiful frogs, hope these will breed for you as well.


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