# Ranitomeya crossbreeding?



## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

First, I don't need this to be about mixing species. 

I simply want to know if the ranitomeya often called the arena blanca (I don't know its real name) can cross breed with the Fantastica Nominal. 

Basically, I don't know what enables a frog to cross breed with another one and what will prevent them, etc.

Thanks!


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Put similar frogs together and they will cross breed. To prevent cross breeding, keep only frogs of the same species and locales (sometimes even import year) in the same tank.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

thanks! I was being told by a breeder that I was considering purchasing some from that they wouldn't cross breed.

What about Galactonous and ranitomeya? Are they similar enough they would crossbreed?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

nrbelk said:


> thanks! I was being told by a breeder that I was considering purchasing some from that they wouldn't cross breed.
> 
> What about Galactonous and ranitomeya? Are they similar enough they would crossbreed?


galactonotus and ranitomeya do not make a good pairing for a variety of reasons. 

How big of a tank are we talking about here? Ameerega and Ranitomeya can work well in a Peruvian biotope tank...


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## alogan (Jan 7, 2013)

Being in different genus I don't think they'd cross breed at all, however there may be some territorial disputes. I suggest keeping species separate until you've observed the frogs long enough to see if you think they'd be a compatible mix. I haven't mixed frogs in my years in the hobby, and have still been able to enjoy it a lot!


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

So you are considering a multi-species tank. Please read this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html

I *personally* would not house 2 species that are not sympatric in nature, but to each their own.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

the tank is fairly large, 300 gallon converted.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

carola1155 said:


> galactonotus and ranitomeya do not make a good pairing for a variety of reasons.
> 
> How big of a tank are we talking about here? Ameerega and Ranitomeya can work well in a Peruvian biotope tank...


What are some of the reason they wouldn't work well? (not being confrontational, just looking at the reasons).

When I was working on building this I looked into the mixing issue and from what it seemed, it was a terratorial issue. It also seemed that they would say a large tank, like 40 to 50 gallons would start to be in the "ok" range. So from that, I took it to mean that 300 gallons would be a good way to start.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

In my (and many others') experience, galactonotus are climbers. They would utilize a lot of the same spaces as most ranitomeya species. Just because you are providing a lot of volume doesn't mean you are necessarily providing a lot of options and will avoid confrontations. I've seen galactonotus wrestle, I wouldn't want that to be with a Ranitomeya.

Also, you are talking about species from almost totally different sides of a continent. See this post:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...mixing-multispecies-exhibits-2.html#post28903


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

A territorial dispute between two frogs of different or even the same morph around that kind of water volume could be disastrous. I would play it safe, and limit your selection to a single, very communal and amiable species.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Dane said:


> A territorial dispute between two frogs of different or even the same morph around that kind of water volume could be disastrous. I would play it safe, and limit your selection to a single, very communal and amiable species.



Good point. I wouldn't even assume a dart frog that casually entered that water feature would be able to climb back out.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

dang it. I'll have to see how it goes. When I was doing my research I asked around about the different traits of the frogs. It was my understanding that red galacs are a good communal frog and that I should avoid frogs from the terribilis family.

The water feature has a good amount of driftwood that goes from the bottom all the way to the top in multiple places. In addition to what can't be seen in the picture, I've added a large trunk piece that also goes from the bottom to the top with a variety of different slope grades.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

JPccusa said:


> So you are considering a multi-species tank. Please read this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html
> 
> I *personally* would not house 2 species that are not sympatric in nature, but to each their own.


This is an interesting viewpoint to me, JP. As a geographer, I like to look at things in terms of the operational spatial scale. Sympatry, at least when I learned about it way back when, referred to overlap in very coarse-scale polygons drawn on maps. Within those large areas, there are almost certainly patches of distribution in both species. The species could be sympatric at a typical distribution map scale (i.e. all of Panama or a large chunk of Brazil) but rarely, if ever, encounter each other due to patchiness in distributions. At even finer scales, differences in niches can further break down an ecosystem into non-overlapping habitats so that there is very little interaction between the two species. These two situations can both occur between groups that are technically sympatric. A vivarium, even a large, impressive one like nrbelk's doesn't come close the complexity of nature when it comes to diversity of hiding places and shear space/volume. Species that would rarely interact with each other in the wild are suddenly in a space where they see each other all the time. Seems that this could lead to the stressful situations that most people cite when telling others not to mix species/locales. I have no idea if I am right or not. I was just wondering whether sympatry is an indicator of greater potential success in mixing species. Since I am not sure about any of these things, I still think the safest advice is to avoid mixing at all.

Not criticizing, just curious ,

Mark


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I have read a few of your previous threads. Now it feels like dejavu.


JPccusa said:


> The correct word is *paludarium*, and please read this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html
> 
> I believe it is not a good idea for you to attempt mixing species. 150 gallons is not as big as you think. Imagine the tank's area in a forest and you will hardly see that many frogs sharing the same space.


A few people commented on the mixing issue (crossbreeding, territorialism, pathogens, etc.) on this and other threads. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/277954-can-red-galacs-eat-thumbnails.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/237921-large-paladrium-frogs.html

About one year ago you said


nrbelk said:


> Oh, k. I didn't know that all dendrobates could breed with each other. I thought just the families could breed within their own family


Jeremy corrected you, explaining that the correct word to use instead of "family" was "species." 
Knowing that both Arena Blanca and Fantastica are ranitomeya, shouldn't you already know the answer to your OP? 



nrbelk said:


> thanks! I was being told by a breeder that I was considering purchasing some from that they wouldn't cross breed.
> 
> What about Galactonous and ranitomeya? Are they similar enough they would crossbreed?


Run from that breeder! He/she is unscrupulous and unscrupulous people would say anything to make a buck. If it was an honest mistake, that person should not be in the business of selling live animals they know nothing about. RUN!

Regarding the red galacts, yes they are said to be good communal frogs, but that does not negate the fact that they also like to climb. It was also said back then that galacts could potentially eat small frogs, wasn't it? 

I must try a reality check here: if you don't even know the scientific name of the frogs you want, and whether they can interbreed when mixed, you most certainly do not know how those frogs normally behave living in an ideal, single species enclosure, or even what signs of stress to look for.

Multi-species enclosures are possible, but you must know the basics first.



MrBiggs said:


> *COMMON QUESTIONS, COMMON ANSWERS:*
> Q: Are there successful multispecies enclosures?
> 
> A: Yes, there are. Those enclosures have been extremely well designed and the inhabitants were selected by knowledgeable and experienced keepers. Even so, even many of such enclosures have suffered from animal loss and death. (See Thread Response #3 for definition of a ‘successful multispecies enclosure’ means, as well as Thread Response #4.)
> ...


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Encyclia said:


> This is an interesting viewpoint to me, JP. As a geographer, I like to look at things in terms of the operational spatial scale. Sympatry, at least when I learned about it way back when, referred to overlap in very coarse-scale polygons drawn on maps. Within those large areas, there are almost certainly patches of distribution in both species. The species could be sympatric at a typical distribution map scale (i.e. all of Panama or a large chunk of Brazil) but rarely, if ever, encounter each other due to patchiness in distributions. At even finer scales, differences in niches can further break down an ecosystem into non-overlapping habitats so that there is very little interaction between the two species. These two situations can both occur between groups that are technically sympatric. A vivarium, even a large, impressive one like nrbelk's doesn't come close the complexity of nature when it comes to diversity of hiding places and shear space/volume. Species that would rarely interact with each other in the wild are suddenly in a space where they see each other all the time. Seems that this could lead to the stressful situations that most people cite when telling others not to mix species/locales. I have no idea if I am right or not. I was just wondering whether sympatry is an indicator of greater potential success in mixing species. Since I am not sure about any of these things, I still think the safest advice is to avoid mixing at all.
> 
> Not criticizing, just curious ,
> 
> Mark


I agree that our enclosures do not compare to what they have in the wild, and sympatric species that would not normally interact in nature all of a sudden are forced to compete for the same dusted FF with each other inside our tanks. 

There are many aspects of multi-species tank to be considered when setting up a habitat. Sympatry at least eliminates a few of those aspects, such as pathogens, temperature, humidity, elevation, etc.. I'd like to think less aspects to worry about make for a greater chance of success.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

JPccusa said:


> I have read a few of your previous threads. Now it feels like dejavu.
> 
> 
> A few people commented on the mixing issue (crossbreeding, territorialism, pathogens, etc.) on this and other threads.
> ...


Thanks for following up with these questions. If you've been following my threads you'll see that is no longer a 150 gallon tank but a 300 gallon tank instead. Not much difference but a little haha.

Anyways, it was never mentioned in the first thread you posted back to about red galacs eating thumbnails. The first post responder stated that they would doubt there would be predation issues. The second responder stated that galacs have been known to eat fish fry, but didn't mention what kinds. Most fish fry, especially tropical fish, are much smaller. A tadpole might be considered fish fry in the smaller stages.

As for the seemingly duplicate question about breeding in the species, I had thought I had understood it, but then the breeder (contact is mostly through facebook, Ruffing's Ranitomeya) mentioned that they wouldn't interbreed. Since I had that wrong, I thought I better verify everything else I had thought I learned.

Here is his exact words when I was verifying that they would interbreed:

I just checked with Josh, he'll be out of town Wednesday. Could we do a Wednesday ship for Thursday delivery? - nrbelk

Tuesday for Wed is really the best shipping days. I could do Thursday for Friday though.
They are different species of Ranitomeya so they won't interbreed . - Ruffing


I appreciate all the comments, this is another good discussion. Its funny how some things are so similar to reefing and other things are different.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

JPccusa said:


> I agree that our enclosures do not compare to what they have in the wild, and sympatric species that would not normally interact in nature all of a sudden are forced to compete for the same dusted FF with each other inside our tanks.
> 
> There are many aspects of multi-species tank to be considered when setting up a habitat. Sympatry at least eliminates a few of those aspects, such as pathogens, temperature, humidity, elevation, etc.. I'd like to think less aspects to worry about make for a greater chance of success.


I see the line of reasoning. Makes sense that if you are going to be doing something with so many variables that you would want to hold as many constant as possible. Thanks for the clarification.

Mark


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## alogan (Jan 7, 2013)

I saw the breeder called into question above, and it seems like the Ranitomeya breeder is Jared Ruffing, who is well renowned for his breeding of various ranitomeya species. That being said, I've seen him post that various ranitomeya won't interbreed, which is different from they can't interbreed. Under ideal circumstances these various species within the genus most likely can produce viable offspring. The thing that may keep them from interbreeding is various reproductive behaviors etc... however this doesn't mean that it can't happen.


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## nrbelk (Nov 16, 2014)

alogan said:


> I saw the breeder called into question above, and it seems like the Ranitomeya breeder is Jared Ruffing, who is well renowned for his breeding of various ranitomeya species. That being said, I've seen him post that various ranitomeya won't interbreed, which is different from they can't interbreed. Under ideal circumstances these various species within the genus most likely can produce viable offspring. The thing that may keep them from interbreeding is various reproductive behaviors etc... however this doesn't mean that it can't happen.


Thanks for clarifying that up! I was getting a little nervous but now I can see why he would feel ok saying what he did to me.


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## jruffing46 (Jul 10, 2008)

I am going to post on this thread once and only once. 

I do not think the frogs in question will cross breed. Given the species that they are, I do not see it happening. All sorts of Ranitomeya live in the wild amongst each other and I have not seen any reports of cross breeding. 

I do not have any multi species tanks and I never will, just to be clear. 

I only answered Nathan's questions as to "if they would interbreed or not." I did not say if it was a good idea or not etc. as I was no longer able to continue the conversation at that time. I have since clarified with Nathan my stance on the situation since learning I was mentioned in this thread. 

No I am not trying to "make an extra buck" or whatever anyone wants to assume. 

Jared


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Thank you for clarifying your stance, Jared. 

I apologize for jumping to the conclusion the unnamed "unscrupulous" seller was trying to "make a quick buck." I humbly learned something new yesterday.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jruffing46 said:


> I do not think the frogs in question will cross breed. Given the species that they are, I do not see it happening. All sorts of Ranitomeya live in the wild amongst each other and I have not seen any reports of cross breeding.


Unfortunately the claim of a lack of documented hybridization in the wild cannot be used to make the claim that they cannot or will not hybridize in captivity. There are multiple examples in very diverse taxa up to an including intergeneric hybrids that occur in captive animals. 

In captivity the cues used for reproductive isolation can easily breakdown unlike in the wild where niches, seasonality and other factors related to reproduction facilitate the persistence of the isolation. 

Some comments 

Ed


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