# Ranitomeya imitator 'Varadero' question



## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm in the market for some Ranitomeya imitator 'Varadero', but before I purchase anything, I have a few questions about them.

I know this species is monogamous, but I have read that some hobbyist has had success with more than just a male/female in a tank. Most of the researching I have done also tells me that a 10-15 gal tank is ideal for a pair. 

With that said, would you even dare to try any more than one male/one female in a 37 gal tank(20"x18"x24")?? When I purchase these, If I can find a pair then I will buy just that and no more, but I may just be able to find some that are a few months OOW and hope for a pair.(I know sexual maturity is at a young age with these) Then more than likely sell off the rest except the pair. 

I think I may have answered my own question here, but I would just like to hear some experience from froggers/breeders that have kept Ranitomeya imitator 'Varadero'.


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

My question is, would you even dare not to? That tank is huge for 2 thumbnails! While keeping two in a 37 would be totally fine in itself, you are more than capable of keeping a group of 5-6 in there


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

It really depends on how the vivarium is set up and planted. If there is plenty of cover, egg laying and rearing sites and visual barriers, a group of 4-6 would probably be fine. If not, a group would probably whittle itself down to a pair or trio over time.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you intend to breed them you are better off with one pair per viv. This is how I keep all my Imitators now, including Varadero.
If you watch them closely enough you may be able to do more but will have to be prepared to break them up if you see signs of aggression. It is pretty common to put small group together but have all but two waste away and die. Others seem to get away with it. You will probably see some egg eating as a group also, (or just never see eggs because of egg eating).
My vote is one pair per viv, 15 to 25 gallons.


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

I'm an avid fish keeper/breeder so bigger is always better in my eyes. The more room for a breeding pair the better. 

I was thinking I could have more but wasn't aware of the imitator's aggression toward the same sex. IE, would they make the effort to go to the other side of the tank just to harass another male or female. Or just defend their territory?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I started out with a group of 4 in a 18x18x24 (around 33 gal)eventually there was agreesion between males. turned out I had 3.1 I removed one male and order was restored. Very soon I will be down to just a pair in there assuming I can ever seperate the other male from my breeders......which needs to be soon since I promised it to a certain someone 

In my opinion I think a trio would be your best bet. 37 gal...whats kind of tank is that? Bowfront?


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

IMO and experience I would do a pair or trio. If you do a 5-6 maybe expect some frogs to die. they are very territorial. I know some people that kept 4 but one was an outsider. Another down fall is that these frogs will eat each others eggs. There is a recent thread by SportsDoc that shows one of his imis feeding on an egg. 

I keep my pair or you could call them young adults in a 33.4 gallon and they use all of it. They tend to play on the glass one day then hunt flies and springs the next. After enjoying playing around and eating they go back to there leaf or sometimes a moss clump. I really enjoy watching them. The only plant that I see them play in (use as a playground) are my broms. They love them! I hope this helps!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have read that Imitators are the swans of the frog world. What I mean is that they choose a mate, and are life-long-comitted to both eachother and offspring. To try and add more frogs to that is like having a live in male/female with your spouse and yourself. Just not ideal... LMAO.

My vote is pairs only...

JBear


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Oh . . . they could be a little more lax in captivity.  If you can't love the one you want, love the one you're with.  

In either case I'd do pairs as well, or maybe 1.2. But if you have an egg eater and don't know it, then you've got problems. I'm testing out some 1.2 groups, but keeping mainly to 1.1 when possible.

Justin


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

D3monic said:


> I started out with a group of 4 in a 18x18x24 (around 33 gal)eventually there was agreesion between males. turned out I had 3.1 I removed one male and order was restored. Very soon I will be down to just a pair in there assuming I can ever seperate the other male from my breeders......which needs to be soon since I promised it to a certain someone
> 
> In my opinion I think a trio would be your best bet. 37 gal...whats kind of tank is that? Bowfront?


Unless I can find a pair, then I may have to go the route you did and narrow it down to just a pair. I hate to just buy two unknowns and it end up becoming two males or two females. The tank is called a 37 gal. "Column" by the manufacturer. Though it is not round, the footprint of the tank is 20"(left-right) x 18"(front-back) and 24" tall. I can't recall who makes the tank, maybe perfecto?? I picked it up from a local pet store for $40(never been used).




vivlover10 said:


> IMO and experience I would do a pair or trio. If you do a 5-6 maybe expect some frogs to die. they are very territorial. I know some people that kept 4 but one was an outsider. Another down fall is that these frogs will eat each others eggs. There is a recent thread by SportsDoc that shows one of his imis feeding on an egg.
> 
> I keep my pair or you could call them young adults in a 33.4 gallon and they use all of it. They tend to play on the glass one day then hunt flies and springs the next. After enjoying playing around and eating they go back to there leaf or sometimes a moss clump. I really enjoy watching them. The only plant that I see them play in (use as a playground) are my broms. They love them! I hope this helps!


Thanks vivlover, that does help a lot! I just hope I'm able to find a pair rather than buying a group. Though if I do buy a group, from the looks of it, I shouldn't have a problem reselling the unwanted ones(I hope)



jbherpin said:


> I have read that Imitators are the swans of the frog world. What I mean is that they choose a mate, and are life-long-comitted to both eachother and offspring. To try and add more frogs to that is like having a live in male/female with your spouse and yourself. Just not ideal... LMAO.
> 
> My vote is pairs only...
> 
> JBear



Though a live in female would be nice, lol...... for a while


Thanks JBear!


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

i was just about to post asking the same question. So most are agreeing a pair is best? and if not a pair then a female heavy group? I have two males in a 20g vert tank together, they seem to be fine. I was going to get them a female, but after reading this it sounds like i might want to split them up before i add her? or should i add her and let her choose between the two? In the same boat with the intermedius i just got, i have 0.0.3 i was going to keep the trio in a 30 vert but that seems huge for just a pair.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Erikb3113 said:


> i was just about to post asking the same question. So most are agreeing a pair is best? and if not a pair then a female heavy group? I have two males in a 20g vert tank together, they seem to be fine. I was going to get them a female, but after reading this it sounds like i might want to split them up before i add her? or should i add her and let her choose between the two? In the same boat with the intermedius i just got, i have 0.0.3 i was going to keep the trio in a 30 vert but that seems huge for just a pair.


If you add her in and let her choose you run the risk of losing one of your males. It really is just based on what you want more. Do you want her to be able to choose, or do you want to keep ALL your stock? If I were you, I would keep 1.1 with 1 kept individually. If you see no breeding between the 1.1 pair after a while, simply swap the males.

JBear


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Here's a cool article on the monogamy in ranitomeya imitator. 

BBC - Earth News - Peru poison frog reveals secret of monogamy


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

there are tons of people looking for varaderos as they are "in" frogs for sure right now. 

if i were you, i'd set up my legit 30something gallon and get a group of juvies or whatever you can find, then pull out a pair as you can identify one and trade out the rest. put the pair in a 20 vert or whatever else appropriate sized tank you have ... then when you're trading you can get a big awesome group of vents or lamasi for that big tank.

just my thoughts...

-brett


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I started out with 5 in a 60g cube as a main display in my living room last September and over planted initially to help alleviate any aggression issues of which in the many hours of observation I have never noticed any aggression that is not to say there wasn't any but I watch them for hours sitting on my couch. I have ended up with a breeding trio 1.2 that are dropping clutches and tads on a constant basis over the last month and a half. With 2 frogs I pulled one for trade and the other due to a root injury.....Which I have discovered left me with a 1.2 like I said and a possible 1.1 in QT. I now have 9 tads in water and one in brom with a 4 egg clutch developing in viv.....If you want a pair buy 4-6 get a pair and sell or trade the others off for some other frogs you will want....Or try and find a male and sexed/proven female and put them together.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Bret you pretty much quoted my thoughts lol. I want a group of vents and i have a 20g in production. I could keep the trio of intermedius in there until they start to mature and i can pick out a pair, by then my 20 will be finished and i can put the pair in there. Not sure i'll be able to bring myself to selling off the third wheel or not but we'll see. especially if it is a male, i want lots of males so i have lots of calls coming from the frog room. I love waking up in the morning to the imitators calling.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

There's a lot of evidence to suggest that imitators are, more or less, monogamous (not just anecodtal evidence, either). Pairs are typically going to do best.

Six imitators to a 35 gallon tank? I thought we abandonded the "5 gallon per frog" rule a long time ago. While I'm not willing to deny that this may work, it is _certainly_ not ideal, and definitely not for the newer hobbyists. 

Good "rules of thumb" (I don't like to come up with any hard and fast rules, but sometimes it's easier to make blanket statements for those newer to the hobby than to iterate every detail for a particular species): for all dart frogs, choose as large a tank as you reasonably can. For imitators, unless you've had quite a bit of experience with imitators, or are working with a particularly large tank, stick to a pair.


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Who is "we"? The hobby as a whole? Every single hobbyist around the world? Just because a few people try to change the rules doesn't mean that they are going to stick, or that everyone is going to abide by those "rules". 



SmackoftheGods said:


> Six imitators to a 35 gallon tank? I thought we abandonded the "5 gallon per frog" rule a long time ago.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

jbherpin said:


> I have read that Imitators are the swans of the frog world. What I mean is that they choose a mate, and are life-long-comitted to both eachother and offspring. To try and add more frogs to that is like having a live in male/female with your spouse and yourself. Just not ideal... LMAO.
> 
> My vote is pairs only...
> 
> JBear


by saying they are life long comitted to each other and their offspring, does that mean they would be more tolerant to a group expansion by their own young? think i'm going to stick to pairs, but the wording got me curious


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Erikb3113 said:


> by saying they are life long comitted to each other and their offspring, does that mean they would be more tolerant to a group expansion by their own young? think i'm going to stick to pairs, but the wording got me curious


I would say easily tolerated until the offspring are mature. I would not leave a FAMILY together forever. 

JBear


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## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

I started with 6 froglets 2 sets from 2 different people which i put into a exo 18x18x24. I ended up with i thought i had 6 females so i bought a male and separated a female into a 18 gal tall with the male. They are still figuring things out but about two weeks ago i found eggs in the exo terra with the supposed 5 females. So now i have at least a 1.4 in there and the tadpoles got transferred. I see 3 always hanging around the film canisters without problems with egg eating. But I havent really had much experience breeding varaderos yet since they just started but i have yet to lose one and i have not seen any aggression or egg eating.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

JJhuang said:


> I started with 6 froglets 2 sets from 2 different people which i put into a exo 18x18x24. I ended up with i thought i had 6 females so i bought a male and separated a female into a 18 gal tall with the male. They are still figuring things out but about two weeks ago i found eggs in the exo terra with the supposed 5 females. So now i have at least a 1.4 in there and the tadpoles got transferred. I see 3 always hanging around the film canisters without problems with egg eating. But I havent really had much experience breeding varaderos yet since they just started but i have yet to lose one and i have not seen any aggression or egg eating.


Post a pic of your VIV, this may prove very helpful in understanding why some CB populations are more aggressive..

JBear


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## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

Thats was when it was first set up, Theres alot more growth and the broms are all growing pups


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## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

I forgot to add I want to pair up them but as of now im not sure which male is in the exo and i know i have a male and female in the 18 tall. So once i find another male i will splitting the exo terra group into 2 more pairs. and possibly selling off the other 2 and leaving 1 pair in the exo. My intentions with this group were to hopefully end up with a pair or two. And sell the rest off. But what i have noticed is that Varaderos seem to be Female heavy. It sounds like a good idea to buy a group but when it comes down to pairing up and looking for the opposite sex its sometimes a pain in the ass.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

JJhuang said:


> Thats was when it was first set up, Theres alot more growth and the broms are all growing pups


So this tank is the 1.4.0? It looks nice, I bet it grew in wonderfully!

JBear


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## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

Currently yes its a 1.4 But i will either downsize the group to a 1.2 or a 1.1. If i find they breed prolifically in that group then I might only pull one female out and try and find it another male.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I would find a well producing pair (as you have) and trade the rest for new/different species. Why have 3 tanks of varaderos, when you could have many other beauties!

JBear


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## JJhuang (Feb 5, 2010)

True, But if I prove them out i can sell a pair as a proven pair, Also i dont mind having a few of them. They were on the top of my list and were my favorites and still are my favorite frogs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

JJhuang said:


> True, But if I prove them out i can sell a pair as a proven pair, Also i dont mind having a few of them. They were on the top of my list and were my favorites and still are my favorite frogs.


I see what you are saying. A pair is $. Also, a favorite is always going to have a special place... Enjoy them!

JBear


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

edwing206 said:


> Who is "we"? The hobby as a whole? Every single hobbyist around the world? Just because a few people try to change the rules doesn't mean that they are going to stick, or that everyone is going to abide by those "rules".


We, as a majority of the dart frogging community. Or do you still submit to the idea that five gallons per frog is a great rule of thumb for your dart frogs?


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

I think that rule of thumb is misleading, both the 5 gallon and the 10 gallon. A simple 10 gallon with nice plant cover will offer more useable space than say a 20 gallon, with half the floor space taken up by water and a waterfall. 
I think we should use common sense rather than these rules.
If a newbie makes a 100 gallon tank and applies either of these rules, he would end up with either 20 frogs or 10 frogs. Both of which are way too many frogs for a single tank.
That's my view on the topic, take it with a grain of salt.


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

edwing206 said:


> I think that rule of thumb is misleading, both the 5 gallon and the 10 gallon. A simple 10 gallon with nice plant cover will offer more useable space than say a 20 gallon, with half the floor space taken up by water and a waterfall.
> I think we should use common sense rather than these rules.
> If a newbie makes a 100 gallon tank and applies either of these rules, he would end up with either 20 frogs or 10 frogs. Both of which are way too many frogs for a single tank.
> That's my view on the topic, take it with a grain of salt.


I agree.... this same topic happens in the fish hobby. Have common since and know the boundaries of the particular species you are keeping. 

Really, us taking these guys out of their natural habitat and putting them in a small 18" cube is bad enough. We are all guilty of it, but atleast provide the largest home for them that you possibly can. 

Back to the OP... I have found a group of juvies and I plan to order them. Once a pair is established they will be the only inhabitants of my 37 gal. The rest will go in separate tanks or be back up for sale.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

edwing206 said:


> I think that rule of thumb is misleading, both the 5 gallon and the 10 gallon. A simple 10 gallon with nice plant cover will offer more useable space than say a 20 gallon, with half the floor space taken up by water and a waterfall.
> I think we should use common sense rather than these rules.
> If a newbie makes a 100 gallon tank and applies either of these rules, he would end up with either 20 frogs or 10 frogs. Both of which are way too many frogs for a single tank.
> That's my view on the topic, take it with a grain of salt.


See, I'm in perfect agreement with this assesment. Which is why I'm uncomfortable with saying "yes, you can put six imitators in a thirty-five gallon tank." Seems there's _almost_ universal agreement (at least among the vocal hobbyists, especially on this board) that the 5 gallon per frog rule should be thrown out for something more like what you've suggested.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I think this would be why it is referred to as a rule of thumb, and not "froggy gospel truth". It is only a general guideline. Simply a starting point for people who know nothing. keep in mind that a total noob who has not done a lot of research is probably not going to do his first viv is a way that maximizes the available space. To this noob, a general guideline, which can be changed or broken, gives him a rough idea where to start. It helps eliminate questions like, "I just got an adult Teribilis. Can I keep him in my goldfish bowl?", or, "I emptied out my 200 gallon reef tank. Is it big enough for a pair of Sips?". I think guidelines are a helpful starting point, and with more research and experience, we can feel more confident about bending or shattering these same guidelines.


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