# Silly but, what substrate do you use?



## garysumpter (May 26, 2006)

Hi all,

Hopefully receiving my terrarium this weekend and I am looking at the HUGE list of plants on http://www.dartfrog.co.uk

Then it occured to me, i will have cocs panels on the bacn and sides, but what about the bottom?

I will have leca and gravel and make a waterfeature, but in the plkanted area, what substrate do you use? Soil? Coconut husk? something else?

The main plants will be broms, so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

I would also appreciate any recommendations from this plant list, I might just use their 'selection packs'

Thanks

Gary


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## Iheartdarts (Mar 3, 2005)

I am by no means an expert but I've read a lot on these forums. Most people suggest something like 1/2 coco fiber and 1/2 orchid bark and possibly some sphagnum thrown in.

I used half and half and it seems to be perfect for my viv

-DT


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I use my own mix. It consists of, peat moss, eco earth/bed a beast (coco fiber), sphagnum moss, orchid bark and whatever else I may have laying around like crushed up leaves or cork bark dust. Stuff like that.

My mix basically holds moisture but drains pretty well. Just make sure to use enough orchid bark.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

What about hardwood mulch? I went to Lowes and of the stuff they had that didn't have any coloring to it, this stuff had the smallest sized chips in it. I know cypress mulch is used alot, but the chips in it were huge which would make doing what I like to do pretty difficult (sculpt the landscape).


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I've never tried it. Does it have oils in it or anything?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

No, it's looks exactly like the rainforest substrate that ESU sells but at 1/10th the cost. They don't list the individual woods used in it, but things like pine and such aren't hardwood and wouldn't be in it.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Interesting. I'll look into it. I'm going to Lowe's tomorrow anyway. Whats it called?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I use lecal than sphagnum on top of that...

I have also used gravel and my own dirt mix and or jungle mix which is a nice purchased dirt mix. You can find it at most major pet stores.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The exact product is from a local place in Ohio, but if you walk out to the garden area where the pavers and brick are you'll be able to find many different knids of mulch, one of which should be uncolored hardwood mulch.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2006)

Nobody uses potting soil or compost? 

I know that broms and orchids need a loose, well-drained, acidic substrate (the bark, sphagnum and leaf litter that people are using)...but what about the other plants? 

I'm just curious - obviously, judging by the galleries, everyone's plants are doing fine. And I imagine little muddy frog-prints all over the glass is less than desirable. I'm just wondering. Newbie. Sorry. :roll:


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## garysumpter (May 26, 2006)

I am still unclear about this.

Is it ok to put a thick layer of Leca on the bottom with ecoearth above it and then leaf litter on that?

I know some people use only Leca and leaves, but 1. What do the plands root into and 2. What will the moss grow on?

Thanks

Gary


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## garysumpter (May 26, 2006)

And do you guys know where I can buy a suitable 'divider' ?

I think the best thing for me as I am not having a built in fals floor is a nice thick layer of Leca, with a devider mesh on it, with organic compost on top of that. I will plans the plants into the compost and add the moss to the surace, then add leaf litter on top.

Does this sound ok?

Thanks

Gary


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Gary, 

Make sure that you have a way of draining off excess water. This can be done with a drain, a siphon tube (permanent or just set up for maintenance), or a turkey baster. I mention this because you are talking about using LECA with a screen (or other divider). You definitely want to be able to get your water draining device down into the LECA. 

As for those who use only LECA or LECA and leaf liter. Many plants don’t mind permanently wet feet, and these can simply be planted in the LECA. Remember that the frog poop and dead fruit flies will make their way down into the LECA layer and provide nutrients for the plants. Another Idea is to use PrimeAgra from First Rays Orchids. 
http://www.firstrays.com/primeagra.htm This stuff wicks moisture very well, and allows a greater number of plants to be planted in it. Since it wicks moisture, it acts like a well aerated orchid medium, which remains constantly hydrated. I’m currently growing Cryptanthus, vanilla orchids, and jewel orchids in PrimaAgra, and I’m pleased with the results. I have also had good luck with a generic nepenthes in this medium. I plan on using it with a layer of leaf litter, in three vivs that I am working on right now.

Your idea of using LECA with a divider, and then an organic substrate should work fine. Many people do it this way. As far as a substrate goes using a mixture of completely dry components will eliminate Chytrid and will also probably do away with many types of nematodes and bacteria. Whatever you use it should drain rapidly, and should not be composed of very fine particles, which can compact, and when wet, allow for the growth of anaerobic bacteria.

For a divider you can use fiberglass window screening, which is available at your local hardware store.

With respect to the moss and leaf litter, remember that most mosses require a lot of light, so don’t allow the leaf litter to shade the moss.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2006)

I have leca, screen divider and then a mix of leaf litter, coco husk chunks, bed a beast, sphagnum moss, orchid bark mix stuff and then peat moss on top with the live moss layed over everything. It's all recently set up and I don't have anything planted in it yet so we'll see how it goes.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

So Chris, you're saying use PrimeAgra instead, or on top of LECA? (Just trying to get my info straight) Where LECA is basically inert like gravel (and hold was about as well) the PrimeAgra actually holds some moisture on the inside of the pellets?

The price seems about equal to LECA as well... $44 for a 50L back, where I paid $40 for a 50L bag of hydronton at my local Hydroponics store. I don't even want to know how much shipping would be fore that tho :shock: 

I could see using that stuff in the plastic basket pots on suction cups for orchids, broms, and tricking epiphytes.... hmmmmm.....


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Orchid bark around here is fir bark chips. I've heard some pine trees or similar produce oils that are bad for use with animals. Does this apply to orchid bark? I'm guessing not since people are using it but maybe orchid bark uses different materials in some places. 


Any updates on hardwood mulch? That seems less expensive and if it functions similarly to orchid bark I may go with that. Primeagra also sounds interesting.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just wanted to throw out some caution as most mulch is treated for bugs and etc. I would stick to known clean items if possible.

You can make a nice mix from the following:
peat moss
coco bedding
orchid charcoal
fir bark

You can order most of the items, and or get some from home depot, but the key is to get items without fertilizers or etc. You can get a huge compressed bag of peat for like $10-15 and then mix in the rest. As already stated just add a bit of fir bark to the mix.

Again though for the hassle you can pickup some jungle mix which works great, but its all a matter of how much you need.
Jungle Mix


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I was thinking about this, why would mulch be treated for bugs and things like top soil or peat not be? I can't see a glairing reason for it to be treated since they're all used in similar situations.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2006)

ive been using a mix for a while now and i like it. it drains pretty well, holds moisture, and doesnt seem to get compacted over time. ive got two tanks that ive had set up (with really wet conditions) for quite some time. the pllants are doign really well, and the soil isnt in need of any maintenace at this point.

my mix is:
4 parts peat moss
4 parts organic top soil (no fertilizers or insecticides)
1 part leaf litter
1/2 part sand or fine gravel

the sand/gravel really helps with the drainage. i try and use flourite when its available, as it seems to help with plant growth off the rip. with my non-flourite tanks it takes a little while for the natural fertilizers (animal waste) to build up, and the plants to take off.


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## Guest (Jul 23, 2006)

> So Chris, you're saying use PrimeAgra instead, or on top of LECA? (Just trying to get my info straight) Where LECA is basically inert like gravel (and hold was about as well) the PrimeAgra actually holds some moisture on the inside of the pellets?


They're both the same material (heat-expanded clay), but the reason PrimeAgra is a specific brand of LECA, and is touted as being 'better' (at least among orchid growers) because it is less uniform in shape than other types like the Hydroton brand because there is variation in the shape rather than just uniform spheres. It allows the mix to interlock and condense a bit more while still allowing space for air to move among the particles.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Sorry Corey,

I missed your question. As Skylsdale mentioned, PrimeAgra packs closer together than some other forms of LECA. I’m suggesting using it instead of other forms of LECA. If you check out the inert media comparison on http://www.firstrays.com you will see that (at least according to Ray) PrimeAgra wicks water much better than other types of LECA. This should allow for a better environment for most of our epiphytic plants. IE, plenty of moisture with enough airspace to prevent the stagnant conditions that promote rot. My initial trials with this stuff have been very encouraging. I’m currently growing Vanilla, Cryptanthus, Jewel orchids, and a few Phalaenopsis in PrimeAgra. All seem to be doing well. I’m building three new vivs which will use it as a substrate along with some leaf litter. I’ll update on its suitability down the road.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

So, would all these same ideas work in a false bottom setup? I have the false bottom set up inside the aquarium, I just need to figure out what to put on top of it. Thanks for any advice.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

pretty much with anything. just use a screen over the eggcrate like you would over the gravel or whatever othger stuff is down thier.


as for me, i was considering useing just plain dirt from outside mixed with spagnum moss, hardword mulch, and probably some sand. then i'll have moss ontop of most of it and leaf litter in some other areas, like where light will be too low for moss and where i'll put dusted fruit flies.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Actually, I would not use PrimeAgra over a false bottom. It works because it wicks moisture from below. If it is suspended above the water it would not have anything to wick. With a false bottom I would use a weed block screen with orchid bark, leaf litter, and sphagnum. You can use finer material such as coco bedding or peat moss if you don’t mist too often. The finer the material the greater the likelihood of it remaining too moist.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Also, where does this info factor in?

http://www.saurian.net/htm05/froginfo_d ... dBedABeast


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I see only two problems with using gravel. The first is weight. You can actually break a tank that has a few inches of gravel in it, if you try to move it. The second is that gravel doesn’t wick any moisture, so unless you add some moisture wicking component to the gravel, you are limited to plants that like their feet wet. These can be planted all the way down into the water layer. Other types of plants would really require frequent misting in order to be happy.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I'm assuming then that clay such as Hydroton or whatnot used over a false bottom gives the benefits of gravel without the drawbacks?

Also, are things such as arcillite, laterite, flourite, Turface etc. suitable in viv substrates? Some of these are used in planted aquariums. Probably too expensive to be worthwhile however.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> The second is that gravel doesn’t wick any moisture, ....


Chris, how is this true? do you mean it doesnt wick *any* water? or do you just mean not as good as leca or prme agra?

i use gravel and water is always above the water features water line. i assume the water moving up towards the bottom of the substrate is what you are refering to as "wicking" correct?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Most gravels do not have much in the way of surface features and in theory shouldn’t really allow for much in the way of vertical water movement. PrimeAgra draws water up several inches, yet provides enough air space to prevent stagnation (the PrimeAgra that is four inches above the water will be noticeably damp). This should not happen with gravel. Of course your mileage may vary. I’m not saying, “don’t use gravel”. I think that most people dislike the weight though, and I feel that it is an inadequate substrate for many of the plants that people like to use in vivs. Pathos will love it but I wouldn’t try to plant broms or ferns in it. Again, you may have a different experience do to the surface area of the particular gravel that you use or to the fact that it has organics mixed in which wick moisture.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2006)

well gravel doesnt wick water 4" for sure. i definatly dont like to grow plants in it either. i use it strictly as a filler between false bottoms and glass. i just like the way it looks better than silicone, and like the drainage of a false bottom. 

when i first got into the hobby (and didnt know about drainage options) i used gravel all the time. the weight is the main drawback to it IMO, which is why i now use a false bottom, or a foam section to lessen the weight.

thanks for the info, i may end up trying to find some prime agra and check it out. :mrgreen:


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2006)

Whats a good substrate mix or top layer that wont stick to the frogs?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I’m using it with a few orchids and broms right now and I like the results. It’s available at firstrays.com. I used it in a test viv (covered with leaf litter), where it really worked well. I’m building three new vivs right now and each will have four to nine inches of PrimeAgra (with a leaf litter cover layer). The drain hole will be about two inches off the bottom in each tank. The idea is that the PrimeAgra and leaf litter will allow for the frog waste to be washed away by the mist system and that the PrimeAgra will provide a moist yet open substrate for broms, ferns and orchids. The frog waste should keep the water layer nutrient rich. Also, PrimeAgra looks somewhat more natural than most of the other LECA products.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

If you like the look of sphagnum you can use that. Also leaf litter doesn’t stick. I’ve heard that the coco bedding doesn’t stick if it is wet enough but I haven’t used it.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2006)

Chris, thanks for the site. ill check at my local stores first, but i may order onlime if i cant find it in town.

i use a soil mix that most say sticks to frogs. i havent had any problems though. i use a lot of leaf litter and moss though. unless the frog is digging under something, they shouldnt ever come in contact with any soil in my tanks.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I think first rays is an exclusive importer for both PrimeAgra and Epi-web. Both of which are European products. I’m starting to sound like a FirstRays commercial. Maybe I should hit Ray up for some free stuff :wink: .


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

So in vivs and orchid cultivation does primeagra have any significant advantages?(looks is one I can see...looks better than little round things).


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

It all depends on what you like. LECAs in general, are light, and they essentially last forever. The choice of using a “dirt” layer above is personal. I feel that using a substrate that breaks down adds to the eventual need to redo the viv. I’m hoping that the leaf litter that I’m using in my three new vivs will decompose and be washed out the overflow. I plan on doing water changes by adding a gallon of water to each of my vivs’ ponds. This will cause roughly a gallon of old water to rapidly leave the tanks through the overflows, hopefully taking a lot of mud and debris with it. Time will tell.

In orchid culture PrimeAgra works in semi hydroponic pots. These have drain holes about an inch up the side of the pot. The plants are watered every week or two. When they are watered, enough water to fill the pot is added. This then drains out the holes, leaving an inch of water in the bottom of the pot. The PrimeAgra wicks the water up, providing the roots with a moist but airy environment. Fertilizer is provided with EVERY watering. Filling the pot with water each time you water helps to reduce salt build up.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I mean't compared to other LECA products.

Is their any way to prevent the Eco-earth from sticking to the frogs?


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## scooter (Jul 13, 2004)

the best way that i have found to keep the eco-earth from sticking to the frogs, is to have a nice layer of leaf litter on top of it. that aside, i usually let my plants decide what substrate to use. stuff that needs more drainage gets more orchid bark in the mix. stuff that likes wet feet, i use more eco-earth. the eco-earth definately last longer than peat does. i have found that peat breaks down way to quickly in a high humidity situtation.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

After reading all of this and JUST joining this website, I'm curious about the use of a false bottom. I know that a false bottom is best for draining away excess/moisture from the viv, but after water seepage settles at the bottom, what is the most efficient way of getting rid of that water? I plan on having a water feature in my new vivarium, but only on one side with an impermeable divider in the middle and solid ground on the other side. Would you guys recommend drilling a hole under the false bottom with a tube running to a waste bucket? Or is there another way of accomplishing this feat? THANKS GUYS!!!


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Drilling a hole and attaching a bulkhead with a valve is probably the easiest way as far as false bottom drainage goes. Other methods include using a siphon in an accessible area. But if you have the tools to drill a hole, by all means go for it.


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## bstorm83 (Jul 16, 2007)

I was planning on using gravel for my first tank to keep it simple but now I am really leaning towards a false bottom. 

So i want to get this right you put in supports and lay the eggcrate over the supports about 2 inches. I am assuming the eggcrate need to be really flush with teh tnak walls so no substrate falls in from the side or does the screen prevent that.

As for substrate I hear alot of mosses being mixed together. Are you basically just taking all your ingredients and mashing them up so its really mixed and then laying a layer of some type of moss on top? Or is it some other way


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## firefishbrain (Jan 20, 2008)

if the advantage of the prime agra is it un-uniform shapes, couldn't one just put a bunch of the spherical LECA in a durible bag and take a hammer to it???
complete newb question, but how high does the water level of a non-false bottomed viv need to be, with out a water feature


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

gravel or other stuff really depends on preference and other conditions of the tank. if you know you might have to move the tank somewhat often, gravel can add excess weight where lyca will cut down on weight. if its a larger tank, then the large amount of lyca will add to the costs and a large amount of cheap gravel can easily add lots of weight so an egg crate false bottom might work better.

as for keeping the substrate out of it, screen works fine. even if there is tiny gaps around the outside, its not enough for the substrate to flood the bottom since its moist and will stick together. if it really worries you a lot, you could just have the screen turned up around the edges so it acts like a bowl.

i'm pretty sure most people blend the stuff together. i ended up using something similar to what i said in my post here last year. i first mixed milled sphagnum peat moss and pine bark chips together in a 50/50 mix, then mixed that mixture with organic topsoil in a 50/50 mix. wasn't measuring or anything, but the overall mix is something like a 25/25/50 mix. result is a natural(ish) soil that is light, easy to landscape, and although it will hold plenty of moisture, it also drains excess water a bit better then regular soil would.

so far its been fine for most plants i've had in it. only things i've had die (that i tried) are oak leaf creeping fig, Selaginella (normal and gold tips) and ferns. they all grew fine when in there pots in the viv for more then a month, but died off once planted in the substrate.


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## Hawkins (Feb 2, 2008)

hey guys I'm kind of a newbie at this. My plan was just to use 1/2 coco fiber and 1/2 orchid bark with some spaghum moss thrown in and some leaf litter over that. I was just wondering what the difference between spaghum moss and peat is? Also, wheres a good place to find orchid bark? Thanks!


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