# wild caught auratus.. hawaiian.. pics for advice?



## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

Sup guys and gals.. i recently captured a d. auratus while i was on a hike.. I feel awful about keeping this guy captive but i really really want to care for this fella and hopefully find him a mate…
If worst comes to worst, i'll release him back to the wild. BUT i have always had an urge to care for exotic animals, and being from hawaii, we don't get much here… I've cared for jacksons, eastern box turtles, fish (salt and fresh), and every other type of animal you are allowed to house in Hawaii.. I've also kept bufo toads b4 but they aren't as nice looking as pdfs.
SETUP:








His Brom - he likes this one more because it doesn't have spiky leaves, at least that what i think.. haha








-Basic set up with plants and such.. I'll post a a thread on the setup with plant specifics in another post.. 
-gs backround/coco fiber
-waterfall, small water area(not to deep)
-SUBSTRATE- is built on false bottom with long sphagnum, coco fiber, and orchid bark *NEEDS LEAF LITTER and MICRO FAUNA 
-LIGHTS-dual t5 6500 bulbs shop light - *tank gets heated kinda quick so i have those small desk fans blowing as long as light is on.. The hood is a fish tank canopy that originally had a t8 bulb.. the canopy has that strip of glass to prevent moisture from getting to the bulbs.. its about 23"L x 4"W.. tank is located near window so it gets normal dawn light maybe around 630-700am.. the tank is completely covered in condensation in the morn. *this is when monster seems to be out and about the most, he's an early riser 
I usually wake up around 9-930am this is when i turn on the lights i keep the light strip back behind the glass strip so the tank doesn't get too much light too soon… Then i go to school class for about and hour… I get home and then i slide the light strip over the glass for full effect.. This is where i notice some reoccurring behavior-
Once monster sees the light, he climbs to the highest point on the his brom and starts jumping towards the glass strip that lets the light through (this is when i feel horrible) - He only does it a few times then he figures thats not the way out.. Then he hops around the tank for a while exploring for about 20 minutes… He then finds his "cave" and sits there for hours!?!? Do frogs do that? JUST SIT THERE FOR HOURS!? i figure he's trying to get out of the heat or they just do that in the wild? 
And i haven't seen him eaten yet… i only have pinheads as of right now.. and for all i can see, he shows no interest in them.. 
- how long should i wait to see if he eats before i let him go… I'd rather let him go if he's just gonna starve himself and die!! 
-I'm going back to the valley for some wild caught isopods and stuff maybe he will show more interest in them… 
fruit flies - i've never seen anyone carrying wingless fruit flies in hawaii, we have the winged stuff.. it's near impossible to ship live creatures into hawaii without a long a grueling process - definately not for ff's
springtails - i have no idea what these creatures look like and if i lifted a rotting leave out in the jungle i wouldn't be able to tell what's what.. there a lot of bugs here.. *It looks like i have some experimenting to do with insects.
-Could i just grab a leaf litter from the jungle? we don't have the same type of leaf litter as most of you folks do..
well heres the pics i've been with holding from you folks.. thanks in advanced
















YES THOSE ARE GOLFING T'S!!


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

He looks like a handsome lil feller, but don't take my word for it. The setup is very nice, too. I'm supposing that you're attempting to emulate his natural habitat, yes? Do you know what you'll be feeding it? If you've done any reading on this board, we recommend fruitfly cultures. If you don't have any of those going, you may have to beg/borrow/or steal a culture from another hobbyist on the island. It takes a minimum of two weeks to get a producing culture, three weeks for Hydei.

Good luck with the lil feller - he's a looker!

kristi


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Perhaps you could pm dendroboard member Manuran (also from HI) and ask him where he gets his feeders. I know he is very busy right now with work, but hopefully he can at least give you some info.

BTW...that's a cute little guy you have there!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The size of the prey you get for him is probably the most important. Your pinheads may be too big. You may need to do field collected bugs till you can get some cultures going. Look for bugs the size of a fruitfly or smaller. You might be able to find springtails under a piece of damp cardboard, in a pile of decomposing leaves, or under a rotting log.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I don't know when you caught him, but I would give him a few days to acclimate before expecting him to settle down and de-stress before feeding. Also, since he is wild caught I'd expect him to be pretty stressed, so I wouldn't be poking in the viv every five minutes to check up on him (although I know the temptation is HUGE haha).

So according to Poison Frogs by Lötters, tinctorius is a microphagous frog characterized by a thin tongue. Since auratus and leucomelas are both in the "tinc group", I'm gonna assume that they can be treated the same. This means that they specialize in catching small prey items, like fruit flies and isopods and small ants. Lötters mentioned that in a dissection of a wild caught tinctorius, its stomach contents were like 99% ants. Lötters also says that in nature auratus feeds on a variety of arthropods including ants, beetles, and millipedes. So I would actually recommend catching small ants from your area (the are where you caught the frog would be optimal), and trying to feed those.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

HiMonster said:


> I get home and then i slide the light strip over the glass for full effect.. This is where i notice some reoccurring behavior-
> Once monster sees the light, he climbs to the highest point on the his brom and starts jumping towards the glass strip that lets the light through (this is when i feel horrible) - He only does it a few times then he figures thats not the way out..


This sounds like "escape behavior" to me, which is a sign that the frog is stressed. Since he is wild caught it might take a while for him to settle down. Try to not disturb him much or it might cause him more stress.



HiMonster said:


> Then he hops around the tank for a while exploring for about 20 minutes… He then finds his "cave" and sits there for hours!?!? Do frogs do that? JUST SIT THERE FOR HOURS!? i figure he's trying to get out of the heat or they just do that in the wild?


I think all frogs experience levels of activity and inactivity. He's probably ired from all that hopping around, and just wants to chill.



HiMonster said:


> -Could i just grab a leaf litter from the jungle? we don't have the same type of leaf litter as most of you folks do..


I think any type of leaf litter is fine as long as it is well cleaned and sterilized.


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

WOW!! thanks for the responses guys!!! I will try to contact Manuran for some info on feeders.. maybe i'll throw some ant up in there...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Keep in mind for leaf litter that you should be using dead, dry, brown leaves. Fresh green leaves will simply rot away quickly. Also, make sure they are non-toxic leaves (not poisonous) as your microfauna will feed on them.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Let him go.

John


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Let him go.
> 
> John


Yeah, I was wondering people's thought on this. 

Why do I feel kinda bad for the wild caught animal caged, but not the same for one raised in captivity? Other thoughts?

Steve


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Let him go.
> 
> John


:/ i will.. eventually


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## Glasious (Nov 12, 2008)

They are introduced to Hawaii, so as long as you can provide it a good home, g'luck with it, and I hope you have an awesome time enjoying it!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Steverd said:


> Yeah, I was wondering people's thought on this.
> 
> Why do I feel kinda bad for the wild caught animal caged, but not the same for one raised in captivity? Other thoughts?
> 
> Steve


Or the wild caught frogs and other animals animals that are imported to be sold?

I say let him enjoy his wild caught, non-native, very cool dart frog.


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

I figure all captive bred frogs started from wild caught frogs.. the frogs are still wild... maybe a tad bit more domesticated and used to the captive environment but these frogs had to come from somewhere.... i plan to take good care of this little guy.... good news!! He doesn't try to escape anymore...


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

As previously mentioned, captive bred frogs originated from wild-caught frogs in the first place. I don't think HI allows pdf imports, so this is a good way to get into the hobby.

Do you have any termites? I've never been to HI, would certainly love to, but termites will suffice in the meantime. Don't make termites the main meal as they are very fattening and not as nutritious as other bugs. You will also need to dust your feedings with supplements so that the frog doesn't develop any type of vitamin deficiency. See if you can locate another frog in the wild and quietly watch it while it hunts. This will help you determine what you can feed your frog.

Are the ants you have on the island those nasty, stinging fire ants that we have here in the south? If so, DO NOT offer your frog those ants. They'll kill him in a heartbeat. I just skimmed thru the posts, so I don't know if anybody has mentioned that pdf prey can't be any larger than the width between the frog's eyes.

IMO, you have a very beautiful auratus. If you can find him a girlfriend, he'll be oh so happy 

take care,
kristi


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

Glasious said:


> They are introduced to Hawaii, so as long as you can provide it a good home, g'luck with it, and I hope you have an awesome time enjoying it!


Very educational, I just read that: Green and Black Poison dart Frog (Dendrobates auratus) was introduced in Manoa Valley (Hawaii) in 1932 for mosquito control. (wonder how much of an impact they actually had?)

Are there any Dendrobatidae native to Hawaii?

Steve


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

Steverd said:


> Are there any Dendrobatidae native to Hawaii?
> 
> Steve


No, there are no native dart frogs in Hawaii. The auratus are the only one's that I've heard of and they were introduced by humans intentionally like you said. Since they are not native, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to keep the frog as a pet. I think Hawaii used to give out permits for people to collect up to 4 auratus from the wild to keep, but I'm not sure if they still do that or have something else in place now.
Good luck!
Bryan


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

guppygal said:


> As previously mentioned, captive bred frogs originated from wild-caught frogs in the first place. I don't think HI allows pdf imports, so this is a good way to get into the hobby.
> 
> Do you have any termites? I've never been to HI, would certainly love to, but termites will suffice in the meantime. Don't make termites the main meal as they are very fattening and not as nutritious as other bugs. You will also need to dust your feedings with supplements so that the frog doesn't develop any type of vitamin deficiency. See if you can locate another frog in the wild and quietly watch it while it hunts. This will help you determine what you can feed your frog.
> 
> ...


thankyou so much.. i recently caught some ants and put them in his enclosure.. Hopes he eat them..



Steverd said:


> Very educational, I just read that: Green and Black Poison dart Frog (Dendrobates auratus) was introduced in Manoa Valley (Hawaii) in 1932 for mosquito control. (wonder how much of an impact they actually had?)
> 
> Are there any Dendrobatidae native to Hawaii?
> 
> Steve


there are actually no native amphibian/reptiles native to hawaii... maybe the occasional sea snake and some skinks/geckos... but they were all introduced by the hawaiians when they arrived... they believe the hawaiians brought geckos over when they were transporting fruits and what not.. The pdf IS an invasive species and the effect of their introduction is not well known.. There are stable colonies here on the island in isolated valleys and as most people know, when you introduce an organism into an area thats been isolated for so long, THERE WILL BE EFFECTS... But the pdf is the least of Hawaii's worries.. Bufo toads, jackson chameleons(compete with native birds for insects and EAT native insects), mongoose, and even wild boars threat the land flora and fauna more than anything... Not to mention the invasive flora that complete with native flora.
It is a big issue...If anything, i'm doing Hawaii a favor by taking the frog home ... Only thing wrong is that i want to breed the frogs and make babies!! hahah The department of agriculture have guys that go out and youthanize invasive animals and they want people to turn in any ivasive creatures found so that they can youthanize... I SAY NO... People brought them here...It's not the animals fault... No killing of the animals!! Except Kalua pork cuz that stuff is the bomb!!


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> No, there are no native dart frogs in Hawaii. The auratus are the only one's that I've heard of and they were introduced by humans intentionally like you said.


There was also a report of D. leucomelas in Hawaii...but I believe it was only a single animal (and a long time ago).


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

*Re: wild caught auratus.. hawaiian.. He's eating!!!*

he's eating!!!!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yay!!!


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

HiMonster said:


> It is a big issue...If anything, i'm doing Hawaii a favor by taking the frog home ...


I would agree on this part - you're removing an invasive species from your delicate island ecosystem.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Do you happen to know if they're classified by the state as invasive, or just non-native (there is a difference). If they used to hand out permits to collect, I wonder if you still need a permit to keep em in captivity there? Here in MN for example, any prohibited invasives are illegal to possess. 

I'm not saying the USFWS is gonna come bust your door down because of it, I'm just asking out of curiosity on how Hawaii tries to deal with all the introductions there over the years.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I've seen a few say that all the captive breds came from some sort of wild caught in the past so it would be ok to house a wild caught.
If you know what youre doing then sure.
You have to think about the fact that captive breds are use to enclosures and having limited space....although wild caught animals have the entire world to roam if they choose...
I'm glad he is eating but i have had some bad experiances with wild caught lizards and frogs here.
Yeah they eat constantly but eventually they do get stressed.
Sometimes you can never tell.
I caught a fence lizard a few months ago and had him in a nice setup and everything and he was eating and drinking and one day i noticed he wasnt moving much and he eventually died. There was no reason for him to die I provided everything he needed but sure enough he didnt make it :/

I wish you the best of luck with the little guy but I myself won't be catching anymore wild caughts animals....
They are best just left alone.
I have caught a few things since but I just observe them for a day or so and just admire them then release them exactly where i found them.
Good luck with the little fella..


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## R.variabilis (Sep 15, 2011)

Nice looking frog! Hope everything works out for you!


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

freaky_tah said:


> Do you happen to know if they're classified by the state as invasive, or just non-native (there is a difference). If they used to hand out permits to collect, I wonder if you still need a permit to keep em in captivity there? Here in MN for example, any prohibited invasives are illegal to possess.
> 
> I'm not saying the USFWS is gonna come bust your door down because of it, I'm just asking out of curiosity on how Hawaii tries to deal with all the introductions there over the years.


Invasive species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An invasive species is a species that adversely affects organisms in a habitat that it is introduced to.

I find it hard to believe that ANY introduced species don't adversely affect a new habitat because they will always be competing with local organisms for resources like food and shelter. In the case of auratus, the frogs are gobbling up microfauna that wouldn't have been eaten otherwise.


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## SamsonsFrogs (Mar 4, 2009)

If i remember correctly the green and black auratus was introduced to Hawaii and has actually caused problems. I was going to say let him go , but if there is a problem with them in Hawaii then I would keep him. You could have possibly saved his life from being killed.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> Invasive species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> An invasive species is a species that adversely affects organisms in a habitat that it is introduced to.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that ANY introduced species don't adversely affect a new habitat because they will always be competing with local organisms for resources like food and shelter. In the case of auratus, the frogs are gobbling up microfauna that wouldn't have been eaten otherwise.


My question was more directed at the state's classification of the animal, as different classifications would have different laws. I work solely with invasive species, so I'm well aware of what they are. Not all non-native species are considered invasive, because they do not severly harm the ecosystem they have been intoduced to. The OP mentioned that it is an invasive species, but the understanding of the overall impact is not well known. If that's the case, then its hard to say whether or not the animal is truly "invasive". I have no idea if the state classifies it as such, hence the question. 

There are multiple non-native species introduced across the US as bicontrol agents that are, for obvious reasons, not invasive. Here, for example, galerucela sp. beetles are successfully used to control the invasive plant purple loosestrife with no negative impacts to native species. An Asian species of stingless wasp has also been recently deployed to fight the invasive emerald ash borer. Obviously not all introduced animals do what they're supposed to, like Asian carp, which were intentionally introduced to control algae in catfish ponds in the south. 

I just was curious if auratus has been classified as invasive since it too was introduced intentionally in the 1950s to control mosquito populations, and I wondered if it was yet another example of poor management.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

From my understanding, the auratus never really took strong hold and are relatively uncommon in HI compared to other "invasives" (I've heard they have a population in the Manoa Valley of Oahu, and possibly smaller pockets in Oahu and maybe even Maui. Whatever the case, I certainly don't think they are a pest there because they don't seem nearly as invasive (even though they were intentionally introduced) as something like the Coqui. 
Bryan


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Not sure if this applies to poison dart frogs but after some research I found this...



> Hawaii
> 
> Category: B
> 
> ...


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## rbrock (Nov 2, 2008)

That is pretty neat.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

freaky_tah said:


> There are multiple non-native species introduced across the US as bicontrol agents that are, for obvious reasons, not invasive. Here, for example, galerucela sp. beetles are successfully used to control the invasive plant purple loosestrife with no negative impacts to native species. An Asian species of stingless wasp has also been recently deployed to fight the invasive emerald ash borer. Obviously not all introduced animals do what they're supposed to, like Asian carp, which were intentionally introduced to control algae in catfish ponds in the south.


Successful biocontrol agents are those that are specific to the pest that you are trying to get rid of. As you have mentioned, parasitic wasps usually specialize in exploiting only one species, and because of that they have a tiny niche that does not really interact with other organisms in a community.

Dart frogs are not that specific. If it moves and it's the right size, it becomes lunch. I don't know how often auratus predates on mosquitoes in their natural habitat, but I don't imagine it's very frequent relative to other prey items like mites. Mosquito larvae are found in pools of water, so maybe auratus tads predate on those? I don't think adult mosquitos are in much danger of predation by auratus once they become airborne.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Any exotic species that displaces a native species, by using space, water and/or nutrition that otherwise would be used by said native species, or preys upon native species is invasive, whether or not it is recognized as such by any government agency. I say keep him. And don't forget, WE are the most invasive species on the planet.


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## diggenem (Sep 2, 2011)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Any exotic species that displaces a native species, by using space, water and/or nutrition that otherwise would be used by said native species, or preys upon native species is invasive, whether or not it is recognized as such by any government agency. I say keep him. And don't forget, WE are the most invasive species on the planet.


I definitely have to agree with that last statement. Man has destroyed more of the planet than any other organism. But nice setup OP. I hope it all goes well with the lil guy.


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

I don't think the species is invasive because it's introduction hasn't had an HUGE impact.. Status of the species is "non-indiginous"

Green and Black Dart-poison Frog (Dendrobates auratus) - FactSheet


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

HiMonster said:


> The department of agriculture have guys that go out and youthanize invasive animals and they want people to turn in any ivasive creatures found so that they can youthanize... I SAY NO... People brought them here...It's not the animals fault... No killing of the animals!! Except Kalua pork cuz that stuff is the bomb!!


This doesnt apply to your frog, just your stance on invasive species control in general. Nor is it an attack, just something to think about...

It is unfortunate that invasives have to be killed, but overall it is a good idea. If everyone was against it because its not the animals fault then the world would be even worse off. Look at it like we are saving native species and the ecosystem overall, instead of killing an animal. If we left every invasive in hawaii, you would have even LESS natives still around. considering around 70% of your native birds are extinct, and the remaining are either critically endangered or endangered, I'd say the invasives are a bigger problem then if its ethical to kill something. 

also, one of the worst invasives in Hawaii is cats because they kill birds quite easily. Keep your cats inside people.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

You mentioned letting him go eventually... I would either let him go now or keep him for the long haul. If you let him acclimate to captivity it will be hard for him to re adjust to the wild and are probably just dooming him. By the time you get an animal in captivity and get him used to captivity, it's probably just better to keep it (from a standpoint based on the health of the individual animal) regardless of law if you feel like disregarding it.

Also not to mention the stress of acclimation, first to captivity, then the wild again if you release it. Personally, you should only catch a wild animal if you do intend on keeping it. Imagine the stress of being held captive for a few days then being thrown back to the wilds.


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

hmm.. this is true... i never thought it about it that way..


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

parkanz2 said:


> You mentioned letting him go eventually... I would either let him go now or keep him for the long haul. If you let him acclimate to captivity it will be hard for him to re adjust to the wild and are probably just dooming him. By the time you get an animal in captivity and get him used to captivity, it's probably just better to keep it (from a standpoint based on the health of the individual animal) regardless of law if you feel like disregarding it.
> 
> Also not to mention the stress of acclimation, first to captivity, then the wild again if you release it. Personally, you should only catch a wild animal if you do intend on keeping it. Imagine the stress of being held captive for a few days then being thrown back to the wilds.


Not to mention the possible introduction of pathogens.

BTW, this thread has got me thinking, are Hawaiian auratus poisonous?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

HiMonster said:


> I don't think the species is invasive because it's introduction hasn't had an HUGE impact.. Status of the species is "non-indiginous"
> 
> Green and Black Dart-poison Frog (Dendrobates auratus) - FactSheet


Like I said, just because the state of Hawaii does not recognize them as invasive, it does not mean they are not. I doubt any real studies have been done to determine the impact these auratus are having on native invertabrates.


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## Tim F (Jan 27, 2006)

I’ll bet most of us on this board grew up catching frogs, toads, lizards, bugs and whatnot in nearby fields & streams or in our backyards – invasive and otherwise. We made the best homes that we could and kept them for as long as we could. This particular opportunity would be huge for anyone with an affinity for this type of thing. And once you master all of the aspects of husbandry, which based on your post I’m betting you easily will, you may consider finding a Ms. Monster.

If you’re really into it, keep him and enjoy.


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

Tim F said:


> I’ll bet most of us on this board grew up catching frogs, toads, lizards, bugs and whatnot in nearby fields & streams or in our backyards – invasive and otherwise. We made the best homes that we could and kept them for as long as we could. This particular opportunity would be huge for anyone with an affinity for this type of thing. And once you master all of the aspects of husbandry, which based on your post I’m betting you easily will, you may consider finding a Ms. Monster.
> 
> If you’re really into it, keep him and enjoy.


Thankyou Tim F


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## HiMonster (Sep 22, 2011)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Like I said, just because the state of Hawaii does not recognize them as invasive, it does not mean they are not. I doubt any real studies have been done to determine the impact these auratus are having on native invertabrates.


There are studies.. Entomology is huge here… There are a number of native insects… BUT there are also a number of invasive insects.. I doubt that the auratus has much impact of the native micro fauna though, mainly because they are more or less terrestrial and they are only found in remote parts of the island. Far from invasive, but still invasive…

Awesome article about invasives of hawaii….. And this is just the tip of the Iceberg… I was surprised to see it in the New York Times.. *I was trippin out about the BASTARD FRUIT FLIES!!
Alien Species Threaten Hawaii's Environment - New York Times


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