# 220 Gallon PDF setup



## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Hi my name is Alastair i am new to this so please be patient with me. I'll start off by telling you a bit about myself i am an aircraft engineer, i have kept tropical fish for nearly ten years (since i was 13), i have had various snakes including a 10 foot African Rock python who ended up getting to big so was donated to a reptile shop, bearded dragons, a Royal Python which i still have, marine reef tank which was sold recently as idea was to convert big tank, and two dogs.

I have recently shut down my 220 gallon tropical fish tank (72"L x 24"W x 30" H). I am looking at converting it into a Poison Dart Frog tank as i find them fascinating to watch and their setup up when made 100% natural look amazing. I have been interested in keeping a setup like this for a very long time but have never actually managed to get around to doing it but due to an upcoming move in April my wife and i decided to pass our fish on to a good home and were originally going to convert it to marine but have decided to go down the frog route as i have been pestering her for ages about it.

I was just wondering if anyone could give me some advice on setting up my tank and what frogs would be best for a first timer and how many i would be able to have. I don't want to overcrowd the tank as i have read there could be issues with territorial problems and i would like to breed them in the future.

I am looking at setting the tank up with full 3D background including a waterfall and stream running into a small pond. I would also like to set up a rain system and fogger as I have seen these in another setup and really liked it. As i already have the large external filters from when the tank was setup previously, i was thinking about using them for filtering the water as well as transferring it up to the top of the water fall. Would this be a suitable idea? (the filters have been boil washed) Or should i look into only using the filter for keeping the water clean and using a small pump to transfer the water? Do they need special water such as R/O water or can you just use tap water? 

I do plan on learning as much as i possibly can before i buy my first pair of frogs as i don't believe in rushing into things and living with the consequences of the animals dying.

I will start a build thread as soon as i begin and will include as many pictures as possible to keep anyone who may be interested in how the tank is coming along up to date.

Thanks in advance and any help received would be greatly appreciated.

Al


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## toksyn (Mar 5, 2011)

Sorry I don't have answers to your questions, but I do think I saw you on plantedtank (swamp?) Nice to see you here, fellow (electrical) engineer here .


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

Well, coming from the Planted Tank forum, you already have a head start on understanding the plumbing requirements for water features and proper techniques to grow plants, now just keep reading posts to understand the frog requirement. If I had a 220, I would divide it into three sections for three different species, but make it look as one continuous enclosure, but thats just me. Good luck, looking forward to what you build with a 220.


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## JoshsDragonz (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi Al, Welcome to the board! If you want some ideas how to build a larger tank I have a 180 gallon viv and If you have any questions I would be glad to answer them. Just shoot me a PM.

Here is a link to my build if you want to check it out 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...0-gallon-viv-build-plus-two-20-gal-verts.html


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

With a tank that size, and the experience you have, you could make a really spectacular area specific biotope. What species of frog interest you the most?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

jacobi said:


> With a tank that size, and the experience you have, you could make a really spectacular area specific biotope. What species of frog interest you the most?


Or what part of the planet that has frogs would you like to recreate?


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Hey guys thanks for the warm welcomes to this forum.

Josh - Had a look at your build and that setup of yours look amazing, as an idea for what im after it is similar to yours apart from the water section will be in the centre with a waterfall directly behind it.

As for region for frogs or type of frog i am not to sure yet, I am open to reccomendations as i find them all as amazing as each other. 

I like the idea of splitting the tank into three for different species but i'd prefer a large single species tank as i am hoping to attempt to breed them in the future so feel would benefit the frogs more with a larger enclosure. Would i be right in thinking this? haha.

I will upload some pictures of the tank as soon as i can. i got the false bottom in place and have 4 holes drilled in back glass at top center to accomodate the piping for the waterfall and filtration of the pond.
I plan to make the water feature look as if it is a stream that has flown over a mini water fall and carrying on down a stream.

If anyone has any ideas they want to throw in that could make it better along the way let me know ive only got a slight idea as to what the finished product will be so any ideas to make it a better and a more natural enviroment for the frogs will be appreciated.

cheers guys AL


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Josh, 

Can i ask what you used to do your backgrround with?

cheers
Al


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Hey guys well thought id post a quick update. ive been planning out the whole tank and have decided to make a few alterations. im not going to have a waterfall anymore as the one i made was going to stick out quite far so scrapped that idea and have now decided that i will have a pond in the middle fed by a small stone stream running from the back corner. still trying to find time to get some pictures together for you will try and upload them as soon asap.


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## Lifeguard (Jun 30, 2011)

If you are going to have a water feature make sure you have easy access to the water pump. Not if but when you have problems with the pump you need to be able to get to it. I had an awesome waterfall that turned into an awesome dried up waterfall.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

hey thanks ive got someone coming round to drill the bottom of the tank soon as i plan to use a sump. makes things so much esier and only got to route the piping in the tank, will also be able to house pump for rain system in there aswell


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## Ranitomeya Jack (Nov 11, 2012)

Sounds awesome so far, can't wait to see some pictures, about your question on water, you will need to use R/O as frogs absorb it through their skin and tap water will probably contain chemicals that are harmful, frog wise, you could look into Dendrobates Tinctorius there is a lot of variation in Tincs, Dendrobates Auratus might be good also but I've read they can be a bit shy, good luck, sounds epic, you could pull of a real masterpiece!


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

thanks for that will hopefully get the pics up this weekend. got some more egg crate coming for shelves and to build up height in the background.
thanks for advice on frogs will look more into type of frog as i plan to try to breed them allowing them to parent their offspring themselves. 






Ranitomeya Jack said:


> Sounds awesome so far, can't wait to see some pictures, about your question on water, you will need to use R/O as frogs absorb it through their skin and tap water will probably contain chemicals that are harmful, frog wise, you could look into Dendrobates Tinctorius there is a lot of variation in Tincs, Dendrobates Auratus might be good also but I've read they can be a bit shy, good luck, sounds epic, you could pull of a real masterpiece!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Mopeytitan said:


> hey thanks ive got someone coming round to drill the bottom of the tank soon as i plan to use a sump.


Is the glass tempered? I'm under the impression that the bottom pane of glass on a tank that size is tempered, which can't be drilled without shattering the whole pane.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

hey another little update i have been searching through a lot of the different species and have managed to narrow it down to 3.

1. The Amazonian Poison Dart Frog "Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus"








2. Green and Black Poison Dart Frog "Dendrobates Auratus"








3. The Dyeing Poison Dart Frog "Dendrobates Tinctorius"








just not sure which one now i will in the future look into setting up two smaller tanks so i can have all three but until then will need to decide which i want in the main display. any thoughts of which you guys think are better feel free to let me know, i am kind of swaying towards The Amazonian Poison Dart Frog just now though, haha


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Photos aren't loading....


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

jacobi said:


> Is the glass tempered? I'm under the impression that the bottom pane of glass on a tank that size is tempered, which can't be drilled without shattering the whole pane.


i dont believe so the guy who made it for me said it wasnt it has strengthening stripps all round outside and across bottom. it was custom built out of 15mm glass. if it is i can always get holes drilled in back at bottom will just have to work out where water level will be before hand rather than just cutting a piece of pvc pipe. haha will have to double check to make sure as never really considered it being tempered.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

jacobi said:


> Photos aren't loading....


will try and fix it probably done something wrong haha


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

jacobi said:


> Photos aren't loading....


has that fixed issue??


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Yes, we can see them now.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Mopeytitan said:


> i dont believe so the guy who made it for me said it wasnt it has strengthening stripps all round outside and across bottom. it was custom built out of 15mm glass. if it is i can always get holes drilled in back at bottom will just have to work out where water level will be before hand rather than just cutting a piece of pvc pipe. haha will have to double check to make sure as never really considered it being tempered.


pic of tank sorry not very good as taking on phone and tank on its side at the mo


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## Ranitomeya Jack (Nov 11, 2012)

You could also think about Oophaga Pumilio, they were my first Dart and im am more than happy with them, some gorgeous colours and patterns as well, mine are really bold, although like the Thumbnails some kinds are tiny, just another thing to think about haha


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

If you are trying to get a group of frogs in a 220 gallon you do not want pumilio. Most are very aggressive towards same sexes and it causes stress no matter how many visual barriers their are. Even some Rant. species can be aggressive towards same sex frogs. Tincs are the same way but, mainly female to female. The auratus can have slight aggression issues. If you really love the rants look into variabilis. Another idea is Phyllobates (the vittatus are an amazing choice) that will do great in groups. I have seen some aggression in Phyllobates but not enough to stress frogs out like the aforementioned species.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Mopeytitan said:


> will have to double check to make sure as never really considered it being tempered.


Thank Pumilo for this one... How to tell if glass is tempered.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Thought I'd give an update on the tempered glass question, got on the phone to the guy who made my tank and fortunetly he remembered me, how could he forget had to get the tank up a flight of stairs haha, he said he only uses standard float glass to build his tanks. So will still be going ahead with drilling bottom of the tank. 

Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using Tapatalk 2


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

VenomR00 said:


> If you are trying to get a group of frogs in a 220 gallon you do not want pumilio. Most are very aggressive towards same sexes and it causes stress no matter how many visual barriers their are. Even some Rant. species can be aggressive towards same sex frogs. Tincs are the same way but, mainly female to female. The auratus can have slight aggression issues. If you really love the rants look into variabilis. Another idea is Phyllobates (the vittatus are an amazing choice) that will do great in groups. I have seen some aggression in Phyllobates but not enough to stress frogs out like the aforementioned species.


Hi thanks for info may have to look into a different type as I would like a couple of pairs in the big tank, where as i only one pair per small tank when complete

Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using Tapatalk 2


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Mopeytitan said:


> Hi thanks for info may have to look into a different type as I would like a couple of pairs in the big tank, where as i only one pair per small tank when complete
> 
> Sent from my HTC EVO 3D X515m using Tapatalk 2


I would go with tincs, like azureus......they are extremely bold, and in a tank that big, you could have several as long as you have plenty of barriers. 

You'll read alot on here that tincs can ONLY be kept in pairs and are very aggressive, while there are plenty of people that keep them in groups with no problem.......you just have to keep an eye on them and remove any that are getting stressed, thinner, or picked on, and they seem to do pretty well if raised together from juvenile stage through adulthood.


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## Ranitomeya Jack (Nov 11, 2012)

Ah well, if your thinking of some smaller tanks as well then you could maybe get some smaller frogs like Pumilio or Thumbnails


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Yh I plan to do this tank then 2 20-30gallon tanks one for our bedroom and one for one of the other rooms. I really want a colourful species which are easy to care for and can be kept in groups. I was planning on having between 6 and 10 in the big tank... Would this be to many? Any suggestions as to which would be most suited to the requirements?

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## Ranitomeya Jack (Nov 11, 2012)

By the size of the tank i don't think it would be to much, some one else will probably have a definite answer as i don't have any experience with a big group in something that size


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I have had a 65 gallon tank with 5 azureus and HAD to separate even though I had tons of barriers. Tincs are aggressive and just because one person has luck does not mean the majority are that way. Look into Phyllobates. They are extremely bold, can be very colorful, and you can have 6-10 in that size of a tank. Tincs can be good in 2.1 ratios (but again males will even show signs of aggression towards each other). Remember this species has been breed and designed for survival, and male to male aggression or female to female aggression will always occur because they look for strongest mates possible. That is why aggression occurs. Sure you might be able to deal with watching them at least 4 hours a day for a month or two to view signs of aggression but I prefer to get frogs that either are very group oriented or ones that our pair/trio oriented because I don't have that much time to dedicate to watching for aggression.

Just an example is that I have two apparent male Black Jeans that I have been working on separating into two tanks and watched them fight for the first time yesterday even though I watch the tank everyday for a good hour or two relaxing. This is the first time even though both seemed fat and happy aggression occurred.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

VenomR00 said:


> I have had a 65 gallon tank with 5 azureus and HAD to separate even though I had tons of barriers. Tincs are aggressive and just because one person has luck does not mean the majority are that way. Look into Phyllobates. They are extremely bold, can be very colorful, and you can have 6-10 in that size of a tank. Tincs can be good in 2.1 ratios (but again males will even show signs of aggression towards each other). Remember this species has been breed and designed for survival, and male to male aggression or female to female aggression will always occur because they look for strongest mates possible. That is why aggression occurs. Sure you might be able to deal with watching them at least 4 hours a day for a month or two to view signs of aggression but I prefer to get frogs that either are very group oriented or ones that our pair/trio oriented because I don't have that much time to dedicate to watching for aggression.
> 
> Just an example is that I have two apparent male Black Jeans that I have been working on separating into two tanks and watched them fight for the first time yesterday even though I watch the tank everyday for a good hour or two relaxing. This is the first time even though both seemed fat and happy aggression occurred.


One person? You think I'm the only one that has raised tincs in a group and successfully bred them in a group? 

Often times, people are just looking for an easy "prescription" for raising animals. Sure, putting a male and female azureus together is easy. But in a 220 gallon tank, I'm thinking you could have more than one pair. Going with a "group frog" like P. Terribilis is much safer.

We've been over this in other threads before. Ed had some papers that point to good breeding when there are different choices in mates. I know the "cookie cutter" recipes for animal rearing are easier, but for 220 gallons, since not alot of people ever get to build something that big, I'd try something different than what we've all done in 20,30,40 gallon tanks........but maybe that's the scientist in me


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## Dale D (Apr 22, 2012)

I have 4 tincs in my 210 gallon and so far they are doing OK with each other.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

illinoisfrogs said:


> One person? You think I'm the only one that has raised tincs in a group and successfully bred them in a group?
> 
> Often times, people are just looking for an easy "prescription" for raising animals. Sure, putting a male and female azureus together is easy. But in a 220 gallon tank, I'm thinking you could have more than one pair. Going with a "group frog" like P. Terribilis is much safer.
> 
> We've been over this in other threads before. Ed had some papers that point to good breeding when there are different choices in mates. I know the "cookie cutter" recipes for animal rearing are easier, but for 220 gallons, since not alot of people ever get to build something that big, I'd try something different than what we've all done in 20,30,40 gallon tanks........but maybe that's the scientist in me


i may have to look into these other threads unfortunetly due to my lack of knowledge on frogs at the moment i am not sure as to what would be the best selection for frog hence why i am asking you guys that do have the knowledge and i have started reading up on different species behaviour and requirments


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Mopeytitan said:


> hey another little update i have been searching through a lot of the different species and have managed to narrow it down to 3.
> 
> 1. The Amazonian Poison Dart Frog "Ranitomeya ventrimaculatus"
> 
> ...


Out of the three you are thinking about, the auratus or tinctorius will probably be your best bet. Ventrimaculatus are very small. If you only have a couple in the tank you may only find them on occasion (at least until you learn their normal behavior). I can't wait to see the build finished


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I am not going to get into this argument because it will ALL be opinion based until either of us prove with documented scientific facts. I just have seen the majority of tincs fighting even in larger tanks 65+. I have PERSONALLY witnessed it with azureus even in a tank that was well suited for the frogs to try and prevent aggression.

I was just giving the OP the facts that have been shown on this forum the majority of time (yes their are occasions otherwise stated) between frog species. I have also seen male pumilio not fight in small tanks with each other but that is in special circumstances rather then the norm.

Phyllobates, Amazonicus, and Variabillis are more the norm when it comes to grouping. If someone wants to give better chances with breeding then just switch out males or females periodically to help induce it.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

thought id stick couple of pics up of tank before and as is now.

before








and as is now with false bottom just sitting in place





























sorry pictures are rubbish and blurry taking on phone because can't find my camera will get better photos once ive found it
i have got hold of some rope and plan to begin work on creating some vines and will be getting the background foamed up soon, but will have to get bottom drilled first obviously, haha.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I don't know if I missed it somehow, but I didn't see anyone suggesting leucs for your setup. Leucs are a great community frog, their bright, and their bold! I have a group of 12 doing very well in a 150 gallon viv. Here is a link to my thread that has a older video on the 3rd post... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/88394-kitcolebays-thread.html. Josh went with fine spot leucs in his 180 gallon viv...http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...0-gallon-viv-build-plus-two-20-gal-verts.html. Mike has leucs in his 125 gallon display viv...http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-living-room-display-tank-updated-9-18-a.html.

I also have tincs and auratus. I don't have a whole lot of experience, so please take my thoughts for what they are. I love all my frogs, but for a larger, bold group of frogs, I still choose my leucs. Popular opinion says multiple female tincs do have a tendency to be aggressive. I know many also have success keeping groups together depending on circumstances. I love the beauty of the auratus, but in my experience they are much more shy than tincs and leucs. 

Subscribed and looking forward to watching your progress and to see which beautiful frogs you go with.

-Chris


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

VenomR00 said:


> I am not going to get into this argument because it will ALL be opinion...





VenomR00 said:


> I was just giving the OP the facts...


See any problem with these two statements contained within a single post?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

If you want really bold, safe group frog, go with P. terribilis. The aurautus are often touted as "good group frogs", but most are more shy than tincs or terribilis. Leucs are a good choice too, (although I've seen more agression from my female leucs wrestling when the male calls then I've ever seen with my azureus group)

Just search through the threads for "group frogs" or "group breeding", and there should be plenty to read! Keep in mind that there is alot of practiced dogma, which is repeated over and over by people who may or may not know what they are talking about, often they are repeating something they have heard or read, without actually trying it. If you read through enough, you'll find out who the people are with legit experience. When I first got on the board, people were always recommending that "noobs" should start with such and such frog, and then work up to "advanced" frogs. I say, that's crap. If a person does research on a species, most of the readily available species are not difficult to keep.

Another one that I always found laughable was "practice culturing fruit flies first", like it's rocket science or something. This is good advice for a 12 year old, but not for someone who has had experience raising animals or feeder insects before. 

So just because you are new, doesn't mean you can't get whatever frog you want.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

MrBiggs said:


> See any problem with these two statements contained within a single post?




This is the problem just like in politics you are only referencing a portion which will and can be misconstrued.

I was just giving the OP the facts that have been shown on this forum the majority of time

Is the WHOLE quote.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

VenomR00 said:


> This is the problem just like in politics you are only referencing a portion which will and can be misconstrued.
> 
> I was just giving the OP the facts that have been shown on this forum the majority of time
> 
> Is the WHOLE quote.


No, I snipped but not out of context. In one breath you say 'all' (which is defined as "Used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing") and then in the next breath you state that there actually are some things that are not opinions and that you are the holder of those 'facts'. It can't ALL (your emphasis, not mine) be opinion while some remains 'fact'. It's either 'ALL' opinion or it's not 'ALL' opinion. One or the other.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

hey guys thought id share a pic of my first vine that i have done. made out of various sizes of rope, frayed them then coated them with a layer of silicone and coco coir. hope you like...







its just literally been coated so silicone is still wet, once its dry i plan to give it another coat but will have to wait till tomorrow as ive run out of silicone  haha


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

i also have a few other pieces of rope to do aswell but they're a lot smaller than this one as this bit is very big being nearly 5 foot long.


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## Mopeytitan (Jan 17, 2013)

Hey guys thought I'd add a little update. Not got much done recently got the other vines sorted and have begun making the new cabinet that the tank will sit on as didn't really like the one its on now. Will upload some pics of it soon. Also I have decided I am going to keep D. leucomelas - British Guyana.

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