# Using wild caught isopods...



## Destroyer551

Any objections to this?

There's a neat little (1/4") soft bodied species that loves damp leaf litter commonly found around my house. They're seem to be extremely prolific outside. They're pretty quick moving. I figured they'd enjoy vivarium conditions quite well so I setup a starter culture.

Obviously I would want to breed them for awhile (6 months?) to insure the risk of outside pathogens or parasites pass, correct?


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## oddlot

Go for it.If you breed out enough generations to "clean" them.it's worth a shot.


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## Harpo

Depends on the type. From what I understand there are some native species that can take over a year per generation. You would likely want to get through 3 or more generations to breed out any pathogens, etc.


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## Destroyer551

I collected about 20 adults about a week ago, put them in a jar, then on a heat pad, fed them, and left them alone. I just checked on them today and was shocked to see about 100 babies crawling around; talk about prolific! I checked several of the adults and almost all of them had eggs under them. One thing I like about these guys is that they're really soft and the even the full sized adults are easily squished. (which made collecting them hard) I'd imagine they'd make good feeders for larger dart frogs, and plenty of other small reptiles.


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## Pumilo

Raising them through multiple generations should really be done by isolating each successive generation. Ideally, at this point you should remove a group of the babies, allowing NO adults into the new culture of babies. Destroy the original culture. You are now one generation in. Now you raise the babies to adulthood and repeat the process 2 or 3 more times.


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## orin

Pumilo said:


> Raising them through multiple generations should really be done by isolating each successive generation. Ideally, at this point you should remove a group of the babies, allowing NO adults into the new culture of babies. Destroy the original culture. You are now one generation in. Now you raise the babies to adulthood and repeat the process 2 or 3 more times.


What measurable goal would that accomplish?


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## Reef_Haven

orin said:


> What measurable goal would that accomplish?


It will reduce the risk of passing along unique pathogens. Heavy metals can also accumulate in isopods, which could potentially be toxic to frogs.

You likely have Porcellionides pruinosus, as you say they are very prolific and fast.


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## orin

Reef_Haven said:


> It will reduce the risk of passing along unique pathogens. Heavy metals can also accumulate in isopods, which could potentially be toxic to frogs.


 There is no evidence "unique pathogens" would be passed among isopods that wouldn't be passed from mother to young. The only unique pathogen studied is wolbachia bacteria and this is passed from mother to young. Also, I'm guessing you do not really mean it is important to destroy mutiple generations of adults to remove heavy metals.


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## Reef_Haven

orin said:


> The only unique pathogen studied is wolbachia bacteria and this is passed from mother to young. Also, I'm guessing you do not really mean it is important to destroy mutiple generations of adults to remove heavy metals.


I'm going to disagree with this as well.

See Rhabdochlamydia porcellionis;

it would be very naive of us to believe we know all pathogens that are capable of being carried or transmitted by isopods. The suggestions were made by others to hopefully reduce those risks.
I mentioned heavy metals, because there are known studies. The accumulation would most likely be eliminated in the next generation.


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## orin

Reef_Haven said:


> I'm going to disagree with this as well.
> 
> See Rhabdochlamydia porcellionis;
> 
> it would be very naive of us to believe we know all pathogens that are capable of being carried or transmitted by isopods. The suggestions were made by others to hopefully reduce those risks.
> I mentioned heavy metals, because there are known studies. The accumulation would most likely be eliminated in the next generation.


Did you happen to check the mode of transmission? Isopods have endosymbiotic bacteria (_Candidatus Rhabdochlamydia porcellionis_) living in the hepatopancreas, which aid in cellulose digestion. Is it less naive to pretend it's possible to solve an uknown problem through an untested methodology? I asked if there was any measurable effect and your answer is that I can't prove there isn't. If I ask for a photo of big foot you can't prove it exists by telling me I can't prove that it doesn't.


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## Reef_Haven

No, 
You stated this.



orin said:


> The only unique pathogen studied is wolbachia bacteria and this is passed from mother to young.


and I pointed out, that wolbachia is certainly not the only unique pathogen studied.


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## orin

Reef_Haven said:


> No,
> You stated this.
> 
> 
> 
> and I pointed out, that wolbachia is certainly not the only unique pathogen studied.


You pointed out an endosymbiotic organism that is passed from mother to young.


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## Tim F

Does it really matter if the isos can be rid of every “known” pathogen or contaminant? Probably not. It seems to me that we attempt to pretty much clean, treat or scrub everything we put into our vivs without needing to identify every bug/parasite, fungus, bacteria, chemical or whatever. It’s why you should wash your fruit before you eat it. You don’t know (and may not want to know) what all is on it. Eliminating what you can will only help, and it’s certainly isn’t going to hurt anything. The methods offered so far seem reasonable, and they address the question. I’d definitely choose cultures from someone who has a procedure for cleaning w/c starters over someone that didn’t.

OP: Please keep us posted!


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## Destroyer551

Thanks everyone for the input. I don't mind separating the generations, so I've already begun separating the pinhead sized babies from the adults; it's certainly not easy. 

Reef_Haven - Porcellionides pruinosus has a similar body shape but the coloration is off, and the species I have is a bit more elongated. Mine appear shiny, smooth, and have faint stripes/spots and are almost see-through.


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## Reef_Haven

Destroyer551 said:


> Mine appear shiny, smooth, and have faint stripes/spots and are almost see-through.


Nice, any pix?


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## orin

Tim F said:


> The methods offered so far seem reasonable, and they address the question. I’d definitely choose cultures from someone who has a procedure for cleaning w/c starters over someone that didn’t.


 A procedure or method is generally intended to accomplish something measurable. I asked if there was any evidence killing three generations of adults would do anything at all. I did not say "use wildcaught," I questioned the idea of the necessity or value of killing adult isopods over multiple generations in such a way. I did not realize it was taboo to question the common wisdom of the frog board and I would not have asked had I known.


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## Dendro Dave

You know if you wanna try to "clean" the generations to get an even safer generation to start feeder cultures from you could try feeding the founders with medicated foods like these...

(If they haven't discontinued these, they both come in a poweder form, so you aren't stuck with "pellets" neccsarily...but I haven't shopped for this stuff in awhile)

















Both look to be made of stuff that bugs will at least eat some of, a mix of plant and animal matter (though I guess some feed mainly on mold/fungus). I'm actually using some to feed a springtail culture but I also have some frog bites and fish food in there too... just throwing in whatever was handy so I don't even know if the springtails are actually eating it. 

But anyways, if the bugs will eat this stuff then seems like you could pretty much wipe out most bacteria and parasites that way. Also you can dust fruitflies in this stuff to feed to frogs in a mild attempt to improve frog health. Not as good as directly dosing them with the meds, but the meds in the food I think are all stuff used on frogs and in small enough amounts as FF dusting there isn't much risk of a frog ODing on them. (might not even be a dosage that has any real effect)

I doubt the micro amount of plant matter in it given the small amounts that stick to a fly would bother the frogs. I'm sure the occasional stray piece of leaf or moss, or something doesn't immediately kill them when accidently ingested while assaulting a fly... 
*but that use is experimental and I haven't even tried it except once maybe*...and I'm not even sure of that, but it is something I thought about. Maybe just gutloading bugs with medicated food would be good for frogs?

*But I'm mainly just suggesting this as bug food to clean your founder cultures to get safer bugs to feed frogs down the road. * Don't let labels fool ya, a lot of the same stuff is used in turtle pellets, or frog bites that is used in dog food or cat food... All animals eat plants and/or other animals so just because it says reptile doesn't mean a bug or a mouse won't eat it and even benefit from it. (Just to be clear I'm not naive, fat/protein ratios, etc, etc... are important and requirement differ between animal types, so turtle food may not be good as a steady diet for cats or whatever, I know that LOL)

Anyways I was considering this stuff for these kinds of uses because it is easy to get at petco/petsmart, though so are most of the same meds in a form for fish. (Oh I also mixed some of this stuff in with baby food/yogurt for geckos... seemed well tolerated and effective)


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