# Plants suitable for Lampropeltis



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I wasn't sure whether it would be ok to post this here or whether I should post it in the lounge, I guess I'll find out. Mods, please let me know for the future? I have a Speckled Kingsnake (Lampropeltis Getula Holbrooki) which I want to set up a naturalistic vivarium for. I had tried in the past, but that was before I knew she thought she was a sand boa. I changed heat, light, hides, water dishes, nothing. As soon as she touched the soil she burrowed straight in. I do have to say that for a messy snake (I feed her 3-5 pinkies in a feeding depending on my schedule, and she poops 3-5 times over the next week. Metabolism like a race horse. Always hungry) keeping her in the soil substrate was great. After a year of only spot cleaning it didn't smell at all. This was all in a 10 gallon tank, which she is outgrowing.

Anyway, back on track... I have a 30 gallon long aquarium which I am going to make a rock background for, and I am going to st up the tank so she has enough substrate to burrow into but not completely disappear. I also plan on putting in a mat forming grass so the roots stop her from digging it up, possibly wishful thinking but I'll try. I plan on having some small shrubs growing out of crevices in the rock background, and maybe some in pots, buried in the substrate. Can anyone suggest any plants or shrubs they think would be suitable? Currently I'm thinking maybe rhododendrons (yes, I'll have to trim) and creeping juniper, which will probably be fine, I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts or experience on the matter. Interestingly, I've kept much larger Morelia with delicate plants, and they are quite careful when climbing around around. The kingsnake at 12 inches was a little habitat destroyer... lol

Jake


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

i dont think either rhododendrons or junipers will do well in a viv. both will require very high light and junipers dont do well with excess moisture. i would consider some very hardy smaller indoor plants. cast iron plant and sanseveras would probably do well. also some of the ficus varieties could be maintained in a tank that small and probably hold up ok.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I've already dismissed rhododendrons. High light is not an issue, I have cacti and succulents growing under the light fixture I plan on using. Humidity will not be an issue, it will have a wire screen top. 

I actually just found bearberry (Arctostaphylos uva-ursi) which I think I'm going to go with. Any thoughts? Should I be on a gardening forum? Lol

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Best I can tell you is my experiences with the subspecies native to the eastern shore of MD that I ran into a few times (gorgeous snakes!). The soils were sandy and dominated by pines (so some light leaf litter with a bunch of pines), and I imagine stacked rocks with some driftwood would be a nice mimic of that. I think there is cypress bark sections sold on eBay occasionally that would get the look right.

Plants... are trickier. I love the Goodyera pubescens found in the area (a native jewel orchid - if you buy some make sure they are nursery grown and not wild collected) which love the sandy/acidic/loamy soils (debatable if it would handle such a large snake sitting on it though - have to think about where/how to put it). You'd just kinda come across a clump in the understory, it's pretty awesome  That being said they are for a "dark" part of the tank - even medium light can burn the daylights out of them. Then tend to grow under a tight canopy were not much can.

Another cool plant I remember from the area is a native Passion Flower - Passiflora. It would climb up the pines and out to the outer parts of the branches to get sun. Interesting leaves, bit of an aggressive climber, even if the snake messed it up to much it would just start growing again LOL. The native species may not work BUT there are a few smaller species and hybrids that are mentioned as being good for small window trellis situations that could be good to try.

Another situation from the area was open ground that was sphagnum swamp (where I spent most of the time anyways, these snakes were often found nearby under logs and stuff). In my mind's eye I kinda imagine a clump of rocks on one side with a bit of a "pool" for water, and it having some live sphagnum around it. In the sphagnum you'd also find native sundews (which would probably just get squished in this situation, bummer) and also some aquatic utricularia. Looks like a fine water weed, but puts up cute little flowers part of the year  High light area though - so maybe pond hidden around the basking rock area. Not much plant matter, but enough to bring interest to the "bright" area of the tank.

I still like the idea of having a Rhododendron/azalea in the tank if you can manage that (even if it's faking it by having a bunch of manzanita branches in the tank). I love these plants! Maybe track down one of the smallest varieties? Maybe something like Rhododendron radicans (don't know if this species is valid, but it will help you search), Rhododendron calostrotum ssp. keleticum which is a synonym for R. radicans, R.telmateium, and for something completely different try Rhododendron caespitosum - one of the smallest, it's an epiphyte from Borneo. Then again, these may be so small the snake may squish them. A small variety from a garden shop may do better and they usually grow slow enough that a nice trim once a year could keep it in control for a good while.

Baby pines from species you can bonsai may be something to think about as well? If you keep it potted and follow the bonsai rules maybe it would stay a decent size, but that could be more effort than it's worth.

Less may be more with this tank... with rocks and wood, sandy substrate and pine needle/leaf mix, the plants could be "highlights". 

As for the garden forum comment... not sure how much help they could give you either since most don't know how to grow any of these plants in a glass box!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Awesome. Thank you. I'm going to look up all the plants you referenced. Now that you mention it, maybe I will go the native plant route. 
Although it would look awesome, I'm going to steer clear of pieces of wood and dead branches. Its a relatively small tank (I wish I had the space for a 55 or 75) for a snake that is active and will reach 48-60 inches, and I want all the wood and branches to be live. This will help when it comes to spot cleaning, which I usually do 1-2 times a week. Dead wood absorbs odor. Trust me... LOL 

I would love to have a pond in there, but I don't have the space for a sump and filter, and if I give her a water feature she WILL crap in it. The water will get nasty VERY quickly, especially if I go away for a few days, which I do frequently.
You're definitely right about taking a minimalist approach to this viv. I doubt I'll have more than 4-5 plants in there.

I didn't phrase my gardening forum statement very well 
I meant that people on those forums might know more about sturdy, hardy, evergreen plants that stay small or can be trimmed drastically, that are commonly used in outdoor gardens or readily available. I wont though, I don't frequent any other forums and it took me a looong time to get to know people here! 

KeroKero, any thoughts on bearberry plants? 


Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey this is an interesting question. I would suggest you could try out one of my terrarium kits for this, but if that snake likes to dig that won't work so well.

I have been pondering/researching similar questions for plant selection and I will try to come back later to jot down some thoughts but right now we're going to watch a move on Netflix.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

alot of the native temperate stuff may have difficulty if you keep it at a constant temp. the bearberry is tough stuff and may do ok but you may want to look into getting a species that is from a more mediterranean climate. if you were to want a pine look into a dwarf grower. lots of nurseries carry small growing pines and spruces. generally speaking though most will not do well under constant year around temps. you may be better served looking for a bonsai site. they grow small sized trees and could tell you what would do ok inside all year versus something that needs to be vernalized.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Hydrophyte, I thought of your terrarium kits, but the snake will definitely dig under it! 
As to Netflix... I'm watching as we speak. LOL. Multitasking. Plus a fair amount of ADD 

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oh yeah, I remember that from my hognose days, this is why my wood was usually fake  Their rough surfaces were rocks LOL. I also understand the waterbowl route - the hoggies got soaked once a week and that was it.

Haha, I was just messing with you about the other forums (not calling you a cheater or anything... cheater!) because you're right - this is a pretty narrow forum. I'm just oddball  After giving you the list of a few of the Rhodos I googled it myself and found a place... pricey (well, for what we pay for cuttings but these are plants a few years old!) but they had a good selection of ones under 1ft. I can send you the link if interested.

I don't personally know much about bearberries, or much else besides the plants I listed. I racked my brain (and some pics of the kings I caught) and it wasn't too helpful... both because there really weren't a huge amount of plants in those areas beyond the trees, and the few others that were there I didn't know. A good resource would probably be native plant societies in the areas the snakes were found - they could really zero in on specifics. I know there are a few native Rhodos here for example and a great native plant society who could give me a full list of plants and where to get them, but in this case I'd have to go for "looks" over authenticity since the Passiflora and Rhodos I *know* are in that area are way too big for that tank!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Skanderson, that's a good point about climate. Thanks, I didn't think of that. 

According to http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ARUV bearberry lives in a wide range of climates, so it should be fine without a winter. 

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Are you putting your snake through a cool cycle? Would be handy to be able to just move the whole think into a cool basement or something LOL. If you go really native to the snake then the plants will want the same cycle as the snake. 

Just keep in mind with the bonsai plants that many are kept small due to trimming of both the top AND bottom of the plant... so if you go that route you'll need to give it's roots a trim and underpotted. They will need a seriously heavy pot to keep the snake from turning it over... damn if the hoggies couldn't up end some ceramic pots and dishes you'd think they wouldn't. Silly shovel noses...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

KeroKero, which kingsnake are you talking about? Speckled's have a very wide habitat range. So I'm not going to worry too much about keeping it locale specific. By the way, I love hogs, I wish I had the space! Do you I'd probably have a zoo in my house  Do you still have any?
Now that I'm thinking about it, if I'm going to make this into a really nice display, maybe I can convince my wife to let me upgrade to a 55 gallon, with a stand and sump. I'm only using the 30 because its empty and taking up space in the closet.

Yes please, send me the link. The botanical gardens near me is having a sale in a couple weeks, so I wont buy anything just yet, in case they have something that'll work. 

Its interesting, I've tried to do some online research on this, and I own Phillip Vosjolli's The Art of Keeping Snakes, and there isn't much out there on the subject of naturalistic snake vivaria. Even his book isnt that helpful with plant selection, apart from the everyday home depot stuff like pothos and sanseveria. 

Jake


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Nah. No cool cycle for the snake. I usually have the windows open throughout the year, except when its over 90 or below 30. I've actually gotten cyclamens to flower two years in a row on the windowsill, which I was told is unusual. Dunno if that's accurate though.

About roots... I'll be planting in crevices in the rock background, which should limit root growth. 

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I worked with the Eastern Kings, same species different subspecies. It was REALLY cool to come across these guys in the wild!

I worked with Westerns, Mexicans, and Southerns so they really didn't take up much space. My largest girl was about 26" total  No big Easterns or Madagascans for me.

So the most interesting site I came across was this one: RHODODENDRON SPECIES

I must qualify this that I have NEVER had anything to do with them, or know someone off the top of my head that has, but if you scroll through their species pages they have a good number of the small and smaller species, most of which are the size that sells for $22 each.

Just remember with bonsai you need to trim the roots still, so you need to be able to pull them out, trim the rootball, and stick them back in. If you make the background yourself hide a pot that is the same as the one for the plant into the background itself, and you can easily slide the plant in and out. Also handy for watering - pull it out, soak it for 20 in a dish, let it drain, put it back in the tank. No need to worry about drainage!

There is very, VERY little on naturalistic set ups for any snake. Vosjolli wasn't exactly into naturalistic tanks in ANY of his books, so it's not surprising you didn't find much. It's hard to get the habitat right for plants AND snakes, and because the space is so limited not also have the snake just squish or break the plants even if the plants were happy. Emerald tree boas in my first position maintaining naturalistic tanks for NAIB taught me this lesson VERY well - few plants they wouldn't squish or knock off, etc.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I have a jungle carpet python that I'm planning on doing a planted viv for some time this year. Now that's going to be a pain to find plants/trees for...

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Well, you were right about the TREE part... haha. Problem is getting strong enough plants usually are BIG too!


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Jake, we find speckleds here all the time in very moist areas (bogs, swamps, marshes, etc). You could use a moister substrate and include your rocks. You could then plant it with small rush types plants, possibly an area of live sphagnum, native Lycopodium relatives with a palmetto and oak leaf litter mix. I know this is a totally different idea from what you had previously planned, but it would be another cool habitat option.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One of the main problems with any of the Lampropeltis genus is that they are at least partly fossorial and will if given the slighest opportunity wedge themselves down into the bottom of the pot into the root ball. Virtually all plants take great exception to this since it destroys the root hairs, damages the roots, creates air pockets that cause the plant to dry out more rapidly and last prevents viewing of the snake to monitor for it's care. 
You really have two options, embrace the fossorial behaviors or prevent them but provide hides that provide the tactile reassurance to prevent stress. 

There are actually some good books out there on naturalistic enclosures for snakes but are not in the inexpensive end of the spectrum.... try for example Amazon.com: Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (9780412550805): Clifford Warwick, F.L. Frye, J.B. Murphy: Books... It discusses the importance of naturalist vivaria but doesn't go into fine detail on construction since that is so variable.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Spaff said:


> Jake, we find speckleds here all the time in very moist areas (bogs, swamps, marshes, etc). You could use a moister substrate and include your rocks. You could then plant it with small rush types plants, possibly an area of live sphagnum, native Lycopodium relatives with a palmetto and oak leaf litter mix. I know this is a totally different idea from what you had previously planned, but it would be another cool habitat option.


Reptiles found in moist habitats in the wild doesn't automatically translate into being able to tolerate moist or samp habitats in captivity... You would be surprised at how rapidly even snakes like Nerodia develop skin infections if kept too damp or humid..... 
I would be very hesitant to try and keep the substrate damp all of the time. 

Ed


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Very true Ed. I was thinking more on the aesthetics of the set up and didn't think about that. Out of curiosity, would providing a moisture gradient with something like this on one end leading to a drier area, like a rock structure on another end, work?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Even finding the Easterns near swamps they still had some very nice dry spots to get to and the top layer of sand could be completely dry. Giving them a humid place to hide will help them with shedding, but dry places to hide will also be needed. I've seen snakes suffering from being kept to humid and it's horrible to see them go that way  They MUST be able to completely dry themselves out in part of the tank, such as having rocks that are actually DRY to sit on to get off damp substrates. I prefer rocks over wood because the wood will often wick water from the substrate.

The habitat I've been describing is similar to what my hognoses liked, and they are also fossorial. They liked to bury themselves and they liked to wedge themselves, as well as needing a temp and humidity gradient so I did my best to provide them with all of that. When going utilitarian they had completely dry substrate with some hides they could crawl into that contained a mix that was kept moist (like long fiber sphagnum with much of the water wrung out). Good wedging spots were often stacks of cork bark (slightly rounded to provide gaps) that I screwed together and kept them tight with nuts. When a snake wedged itself and I wanted it out, I just unscrewed the nut, removed the screw, and all the pieces came apart. I would also wedge cork bark into the humidity hides for smaller animals - they couldn't move it because it was wedged in tight with the lid (I made a hole in the side for them to crawl in and out of, just a rubbermaid) so they would have the comfort of that wedge feeling in their hides.

Giving them other choices to easily wedge themselves in an fell secure may keep them out of the bottom of the plant pots :/


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ed - thank you again for adding another hideously expensive book to my reading list  It actually looks to be an amazing book, are there others that you'd recommend as well?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

That's what I was thinking about a wetter setup. In a tank that size there wouldn't be enough room to provide a real gradient in the sense that one part will stay dry and one moist while at the same time providing hiding spots.

Ed, regarding fossorial behaviour, I plan on having several low caves, some filled with soil or Sphagnum moss, to allow the choice of different hiding spots. I may incorporate a commercial plastic two part hollow rock. I think exotic terra makes them. 
By the way, Amazon has that book listed for $275!!!

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

He did warn that it would not be inexpensive... LOL.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

KeroKero said:


> Ed - thank you again for adding another hideously expensive book to my reading list  It actually looks to be an amazing book, are there others that you'd recommend as well?


That too... LOL. Ed, by the time I can afford the list of books you've referenced over the years... um. Not a very coherent thought. But hopefully understandable.

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've been slowly picking stuff up over the years... I think it's funny when people ask if I can get it at a library. Sure... some of the college libraries might have them! (of course, not the one I work at... figures)

Often if you keep an eye out you can get decent deals on used books, sometimes they pop up on eBay, sometimes used book dealers on Amazon has them.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Off topic in regards to plants, but if anyone else has any ideas feel free to chime in. I want this vivarium to be the kind of display that will change peoples minds about the way they keep their snakes. 

Edit: after posting that I realised I just want people to go "Cooool...." 

Jake


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Library is nice for a read, but not always good for a reference book. Plus, I like HAVING them. I'm in school for the next few years, so money is tight. Schoolbooks are f****ng expensive! 

Jake


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Spaff said:


> Very true Ed. I was thinking more on the aesthetics of the set up and didn't think about that. Out of curiosity, would providing a moisture gradient with something like this on one end leading to a drier area, like a rock structure on another end, work?


If done correctly which is tough to actually accomplish in many cages for reptiles since you need good ventilation to keep the humidity low enough to allow those surfaces to stay dry.. What is often much easier to accomplish and works as well is to simply provide the animals with a misting in the morning which dampens the enclosure (simulating dew), which is then allowed to dry during the course of the day. This also provides the ability for the animal to behaviorally regulate thier requirements (say when it is time for shedding). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> Ed - thank you again for adding another hideously expensive book to my reading list  It actually looks to be an amazing book, are there others that you'd recommend as well?


here is a short list... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> That's what I was thinking about a wetter setup. In a tank that size there wouldn't be enough room to provide a real gradient in the sense that one part will stay dry and one moist while at the same time providing hiding spots.
> 
> Ed, regarding fossorial behaviour, I plan on having several low caves, some filled with soil or Sphagnum moss, to allow the choice of different hiding spots. I may incorporate a commercial plastic two part hollow rock. I think exotic terra makes them.
> By the way, Amazon has that book listed for $275!!!
> ...


I've found that they still often prefer underneath the potted plant... 

The soft cover edition is less than half the cost. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> I've been slowly picking stuff up over the years... I think it's funny when people ask if I can get it at a library. Sure... some of the college libraries might have them! (of course, not the one I work at... figures)
> 
> Often if you keep an eye out you can get decent deals on used books, sometimes they pop up on eBay, sometimes used book dealers on Amazon has them.


I've been collecting information for well over 25 years now...and I try to buy at least one or two new reference texts a year. Some of the ones I have are very hard to find like Taylor's epic Caecilians of World...

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oddly enough, some of the used copies of the hardback are cheaper than even the paperback! Just gotta keep your eyes out for deals... but looking at the pic, I think I'm making a dent in the reading list 

Actually, my shelf is pretty bad at this point... while Ed's rambles off into caudate and caecilian land, mine run into plants. I read entirely too much... but if you want obscure Begonia references or flasking techniques, I've got you covered!



> I've found that they still often prefer underneath the potted plant...


The more you try and keep them out, the more they want to be there. Murphy's law of critters.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

This was interesting... http://www.hort.cornell.edu/uhi/outreach/pdfs/dwgc.pdf

So far, I've found several plants that seem ok. Here are some links. No Rhododendrons yet, there are so many to choose from. I may just get a slow growing dwarf?compact variety like http://www.monrovia.com/plant-catalog/plants/295/scarlet-wonder-dwarf-rhododendron.php which looks good.
http://www.abnativeplants.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=plants.plantdetail&plant_id=105
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/shrubs/juniperus_procumb-nana.html
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/consumer/factsheets/groundcover/juniperus_horiz-bluerug.html

Jake


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

KeroKero said:


> Oddly enough, some of the used copies of the hardback are cheaper than even the paperback! Just gotta keep your eyes out for deals... but looking at the pic, I think I'm making a dent in the reading list
> 
> Actually, my shelf is pretty bad at this point... while Ed's rambles off into caudate and caecilian land, mine run into plants. I read entirely too much... but if you want obscure Begonia references or flasking techniques, I've got you covered!
> 
> ...


When I am done with school, and can move to a bigger place, I am going to go bonkers with plants. I simply don't have the space. There's a limit to how many shelves I can drill into the wall without getting the super suspicious 
I limit myself to library books right now, because if I owned the books, apart from them distracting me from my school work, I'd get aggro that I couldn't use the info...

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Like several others mentioned you'll need to use plants that don't have strong winter dormancy requirements.

I like the idea of using tropical _Rhododendron_. I have been meaning to track down some of those myself. 

It sounds like you are trying to keep with a biotope theme, but here are some quick ideas based on educated guesses as to how they might grow in a terarium, physical sturdiness and temperate-ishness appearance.


_Michelia figo_
_Zamia integrifolia_
_Podocarpus_ and _Afrocarpus_
_Radermachera sinica_
Sabal minor, or other native fan palms
_Trachycarpus wagnerius_, from China, but an excellent fan-leaved palm that you can keep small by underpotting
_Cyrtomium_ spp.
_Ficus carica_


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh _Cissus rhombifolia_ is another good one. It looks like Virginia creeper. I have it going in the 65 with the gray tree frog and it's happy in there.

You probably have this in mind already but one other thing is that some plants might be less than happy with heat and/or UV shining right on them. Can you keep heat and UV maybe in the middle of the tank and up front, then grow the plants in the rest of the space?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Hydrophyte, thanks for the plant suggestions. Some of them look really interesting. Bear in mind that the tank is only 15 inches high, and I'll probably lose an inch or two to substrate. I'm going to look into them in more detail now. One of my goals for this project is to compile a list of plants/shrubs that are suitable for an enclosure like this, whether I use them in this viv or not. There are so many known options when it comes to a dart frog or similar sized animal viv, yet very few for an enclosure for a larger animal, that will stand up to the animal, yet stay small.

Here are some links to some photos so people can see the approximate size these snakes can reach, if not slightly bigger.
Redirect Notice Right now mine is slightly smaller than the smaller one.
Redirect Notice This page actually has some really nice photos.

When I have space I may get some of the ones you suggested as houseplants 

Regarding heat and UV, for heat I havent decided yet. If I use overhead heat, I will only have a very low wattage incandescent bulb on one side of the tank, and no UV light. Light for the plants is a 4foot double t8 fixture, which cost me a whopping $17 and $6 for the bulbs... 

Jake


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

tropical rhodies may be troublesome because of the size most of them attain. when i looked for smaller growing varieties most of them were 4 to 6 feet. if you find a source of something around a foot let me know.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'd really like to know more about tropical rhododendrons too. 

There was somebody on palmtalk who was showing off a whole row of rare rhododendron that he had just bought. They were unusual little plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> Oddly enough, some of the used copies of the hardback are cheaper than even the paperback! Just gotta keep your eyes out for deals... but looking at the pic, I think I'm making a dent in the reading list
> 
> Actually, my shelf is pretty bad at this point... while Ed's rambles off into caudate and caecilian land, mine run into plants. I read entirely too much... but if you want obscure Begonia references or flasking techniques, I've got you covered!
> 
> ...


I have a different section of my office devoted to plant books...... and the shot of above my desk are the books I tend to refer back to make sure what I remembered is correct...(and this also doesn't include the large filing cabinet of papers relating to my interests or the bookcase with the journals..) 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hmmm... 15 inches or so of height really makes it tough to provide good suggestions. Have you considered instead of using live plants, using materials to imitate a season say in the spring before it warms up or in the fall after the heavy frosts? If you take that route then you could use dried plant materials (dried clumps of grass) to provide the naturalistic look to the enclosure. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> I'd really like to know more about tropical rhododendrons too.
> 
> There was somebody on palmtalk who was showing off a whole row of rare rhododendron that he had just bought. They were unusual little plants.


Does it require a login? Can you post a link here?

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Ed said:


> Hmmm... 15 inches or so of height really makes it tough to provide good suggestions. Have you considered instead of using live plants, using materials to imitate a season say in the spring before it warms up or in the fall after the heavy frosts? If you take that route then you could use dried plant materials (dried clumps of grass) to provide the naturalistic look to the enclosure.
> 
> Ed


I hope that it will be possible to maintain some kinds of shrubs and trees as seedling-size specimens with pruning...same idea as bonsai, but without all the extra training and shaping. I have a few different tree species in mind for my paleo viv project and some of them grow into colossal forest trees. One of them is _Podocarpus_ and that is a popular bonsai tree that you can keep really small. 



jacobi said:


> Does it require a login? Can you post a link here?
> 
> Jake


Yes I think that you have to register and login to even view that forum. You should join. There's a lot of cool plant-related discussion there.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> Yes I think that you have to register and login to even view that forum. You should join. There's a lot of cool plant-related discussion there.


Well that was interesting. I tried to go onto the webpage, it tried to get me to sign up to win a cadillac, then my firewall shut it down.

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah it's really dumb. I imagine they got some kind of reduced-price hosting in exchange for those pop-ups. It can't be good for building membership to run a site like that.

Try going to the straight index page...

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> Yeah it's really dumb. I imagine they got some kind of reduced-price hosting in exchange for those pop-ups. It can't be good for building membership to run a site like that.
> 
> Try going to the straight index page...
> 
> PalmTalk


That worked. I'll check it out. Thanks!

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The low height of the tank is what made some of the species Rhodos listed on the nursery page very interesting. They tended to be under a foot tall (mature size - these are pretty slow growing plants) but are more spreading in habit. Some are listed at only 6" or so in height!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hydrophyte said:


> I hope that it will be possible to maintain some kinds of shrubs and trees as seedling-size specimens with pruning...same idea as bonsai, but without all the extra training and shaping. I have a few different tree species in mind for my paleo viv project and some of them grow into colossal forest trees. One of them is _Podocarpus_ and that is a popular bonsai tree that you can keep really small.


I was considering the shallow cage size with the probable damage to the roots from the snake as the problem. In very large enclosures you can keep a large enough plant that can tolerate some damage to the roots. At work I had Zonosaurus ornatus that would burrow down into the roots of the plants I kept in the tank and I finally just started planting 6 foot tall ginger plants that were rooted into 5 gallon tubes... The volume allowed the lizards to burrow without damaging the plants. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> Hmmm... 15 inches or so of height really makes it tough to provide good suggestions. Have you considered instead of using live plants, using materials to imitate a season say in the spring before it warms up or in the fall after the heavy frosts? If you take that route then you could use dried plant materials (dried clumps of grass) to provide the naturalistic look to the enclosure.
> 
> Ed


I want to limit the amount of dead plant material, except for leaf litter that I can easily wash or replace, because she can be so messy, and dried grass, twigs, and driftwood get really gross. I tried that the first time I set up the enclosure, and had to pull most of it out. Its a pain in the ass (no pun intended) to keep clean. I also figure that if I can get one or two plants to grow really well, they'll provide more security and cover for her. The other thing I've noticed about snakes kept with live plants is that they shed without the assistance of a specific humidity hide. I assume that's due to the soils moisture content, which since I use a well draining substrate, never gets soggy, but provides a humidity gradient. 

I may end up using a rapidly growing vining plant that I can just chop up to keep contained. I just realized, I haven't even thought of ivy. Maybe one of the slow growing dwarf varieties? 



KeroKero said:


> The low height of the tank is what made some of the species Rhodos listed on the nursery page very interesting. They tended to be under a foot tall (mature size - these are pretty slow growing plants) but are more spreading in habit. Some are listed at only 6" or so in height!


I just spent the last hour looking at them. This time (at the hospital with mother in law, for those who read my other posts) I have my laptop with me, so I'm not stuck reading web pages on my comparitively small phone screen. I've picked several plants from that list that look promising, here are some links in case anybody is interested. Most of these are alpine. Should be ok in a vivarium, I'll have to be careful how I orient the heat lamp.
Paghat's Garden: Rhododendron impeditum
Rhododendron calostrotum: Species In Our Midst
Plant Descriptions - Rhododendron Species
Rhododendron hanceanum
Rhododendron nakahari 'Pink E.S.'
Plant Descriptions - Rhododendron Species
Plant Descriptions - Rhododendron Species

Jake


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> I was considering the shallow cage size with the probable damage to the roots from the snake as the problem. In very large enclosures you can keep a large enough plant that can tolerate some damage to the roots. At work I had Zonosaurus ornatus that would burrow down into the roots of the plants I kept in the tank and I finally just started planting 6 foot tall ginger plants that were rooted into 5 gallon tubes... The volume allowed the lizards to burrow without damaging the plants.
> 
> Ed


I'm thinking of keeping the main root ball area, when I first plant it anyway, in some kind of mesh that will allow the roots to grow out and prevent them from being damaged. Or making a small "planter" area that'd be to small to burrow into. I think if I provide alternate and easier burrowing areas it will be fine. 
Edit: Or now that I think of it, maybe a raise false bottom made of eggcrate, siliconed or otherwise attached to the side so she cant burrow past it, and have substrate UNDERNEATH the eggcrate, then plant in the eggcrate holes, then another layer of substrate?

Jake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Unless you're planting the plant in a hole smaller than her head, she'll get in there  Remember this is something you'll have to be able to take out and remove as well in case something happens to the plants. Short of putting a lid on the pot with just enough room for the main stem to come out (which is an ugly but possible way to do it) she's going to want to dig around. I know a number of hydroponic mesh pots also come with lids that if you say, duct taped them together, might stand a chance of the snake not getting in... at least for a while.

The passiflora is a vigorous growing vine that will initially grow out of the bottom substrate so as long as that part doesn't get messed with too often it will be everywhere. It's also MUCH more native than Ivy. I'm anti ivy... it's a really invasive species :/ If you did go that route I wouldn't bother with dwarf forms, the regular stuff may stand up to the snake traffic better. It's best defense against traffic though is a well established and not disturbed root system which is the biggest issue in this tank, so you're still looking at the above problem.

I think the egg crate is complex, possibly overkill, and possibly also something the snake could get around. It tends to have sharp edges that cut, and is weak because it is not meant to hold weight. Rubber coated wire mesh would work better (and be easier to keep sharp points away from her) and brings to mind the tulip bulb cages used to keep squirrels from eating the bulbs in your garden. 

Above methods won't keep her from getting under the pots, but at least she wouldn't be able to destroy the root ball if you manage to keep her out.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

If you want to use vinging plants how about just leaving the bedding substrate in the bottom with no plants, then hiding pots with plants higher up behind your rocks background or a stump.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Even if he does that he'll still have to do something to protect the roots :/ If there is a crevice, the snake will test it for size. A crevice full of dirt? Simply dig into it and see if it can fit and build a nice little den for itself.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

What about something like this? Incorporate it into the rock background, near the base so it doesnt move and the roots can spread out into the soil. That'd provide some protection for the roots until they get established.

Amazon.com: Gro-Blocks - 4 in. x 4 in. x 4 in. (Rockwool / Stonewool) Grodan: Patio, Lawn & Garden


I could also use treefern, which wouldn't constrict the roots as much.

Jake


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

This looks interesting. IRC - Natives for Your Neighborhood Quailberry. I'm concerned about the spiky leaves though...

Jake


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> I want to limit the amount of dead plant material, except for leaf litter that I can easily wash or replace, because she can be so messy, and dried grass, twigs, and driftwood get really gross. I tried that the first time I set up the enclosure, and had to pull most of it out.


In the spring or fall go around to people that have ornamental plantings of grasses and offer to cut the dead stems for the people, tell them your using it for art projects.... Bundle and save these for decorations. You can then make little premade bundles of them and simple pull and discard soiled or banged up bunches. This way you aren't having to try and clean them once they look bad. (I learned that trick a longtime ago with the exhibits at the zoo). 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

OK. So I picked up a few plants that should be suitable.

Thymus serpullum 'Minus'. I have read that this is used as a 'steppable' for lawns.
Rubus calycinoides, or creeping raspberry.
Cotoneaster dammeri 'Streib's Findling'
Gaultheria procumbens, or winterberry.
Arctostaphylos uva-ursi, or bearberry. The small sprig in the photos. Its a cutting with roots, not an established plant. Should be fine.

All are low growing, sturdy plants that should hold up to snake traffic. They also all cascade, so i can plant them in raised crevices that the snake wont dig into (I hope!) and except for the Gaultheria are indicated for use in rock gardens. Now I gotta choose. I don't think I can keep all of them growing in a 30 gallon terrarium... I decided against a juniper, as trimming them cuts off the growing tip and I have no bonsai experience, and don't want to get hooked on them in my tiny apartment 

Now. Lights. I don't have much experience with lighting for plants that require full sun. I also don't have a fortune to spend. I have a 48inch double t8 that some succulents are doing well under (in my rescued leopard gecko viv) but I decided to leave that and get a new one. Plus, the 30 gallon is 36 inches long, the 48inch fixture will stick out on the sides. Maybe I'll rig up a hood for 6-8 CFLs. They'll also raise the daytime temps to mid 80's so I wont need to worry about heat.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Thyme oil is probably toxic to snakes... 

Winterberry oil is also probably not ideal... It can also take a long time to establish


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> Thyme oil is probably toxic to snakes...
> 
> Winterberry oil is also probably not ideal... It can also take a long time to establish


I think the winterberry you're referring to is Ilex. Common names are confusing... Gaultheria is edible for humans so I can't imagine it would cause any toxic effects to a snake by skin (or scale) contact.

Do you have any specific info for thyme toxicity for snakes? Are we talking ingestion or contact? A quick Google search turned up nothing. I'll search again later.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually, no I'm referring to the exact plant your using.. It contains among other things methy salicylate... It has caused human fatalities through over consumption.. 

One of the active ingredients of Thyme is thymol which has a similar reaction as phenol (although it is slightly less toxic than phenol itself)..but it is liver toxic.. 

The issue is that both of those are going to be in a tight space where contact is going to be consistent and inevitable. This is very different than the exposures for humans or even the snakes in the wild. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Ed. I guess I have two new houseplants...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

To be honest, the thought of plant toxicity to a carnivorous reptile hadn't crossed my mind. And I'm discovering its not the easiest thing to research, online anyway.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> To be honest, the thought of plant toxicity to a carnivorous reptile hadn't crossed my mind. And I'm discovering its not the easiest thing to research, online anyway.


One of the courses that I took that has stood with me and helped me alot with plant choices over the years is medicinal botany. 
The wintergreen will be much much happier out in partial shade in a slightly moistened spot in the yard. 

Anything that is utilized as a spice, flavoring or medically, should be scrutinized since they often contain aromatics that are potentially dangerous in enclosured enviroment. If they don't contain aromatics then they tend to be much much safer. 
Look up the toxicity of wintergreen oil... 

Ed


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

i don't know if this has been covered yet, but why not pothos?? it's supposed to be unkillable. maybe you could prove that


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you have enough light, why not collect some purslane (Portulaca oleracea) since it has a nice succulant appearance, and it is edible and lack the issues you see with thyme and wintergreen. If you don't want to collect it, you can seeds for it from some companies like Territorial Seed Co Vegetable Seeds, Flower Seeds, Herb Seed, Garden Seed - Territorial Seed Company

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

goof901 said:


> i don't know if this has been covered yet, but why not pothos?? it's supposed to be unkillable. maybe you could prove that


Pothos is more of a tropical plant, and while generally "unkillable", the snake will bruise and break the leaves.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've had snakes kill pothos before - the smaller the tank the easier it happens. Nothing like having a growing tree snake try and coil up on a petiole just to have it snap under the weight! If you have the growth of the vine strong enough for the size of the snake it could work... that applies to treefrogs and well... actually any animal. Sometimes it works, sometimes it just takes a lot of abuse before dying 

Then you've got the tree skinks that actually enjoy eating it. Noms! Yeah I think that's the fastest I've seen the plant die!

Can't wait to see this tank come together though.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> If you have enough light, why not collect some purslane (Portulaca oleracea) since it has a nice succulant appearance, and it is edible and lack the issues you see with thyme and wintergreen. If you don't want to collect it, you can seeds for it from some companies like Territorial Seed Co Vegetable Seeds, Flower Seeds, Herb Seed, Garden Seed - Territorial Seed Company
> 
> Ed


That looks like it'll work perfectly. I'll see if I can find some locally.

I'm going to stick with the cotoneaster, although listed as poisonous by many sources it seems its only the berries. I'll just cut them off as soon as they start to develop, make it part of regular tank maintenance.
The creeping rasperry seems to be completely safe.
Anyone have thoughts about the bearberry? Here's a link Uva ursi - Penn State Hershey Medical Center with some info. I think it will be safe, it seems to need large amounts to be ingested for toxicity to occur, as per some other sites I found, so contact should be ok. Thoughts?





KeroKero said:


> Can't wait to see this tank come together though.


Yeah, neither can I lol. The plan for the tank has changed. Its going to be going on a stand, which means I'm going to incorporate a small water feature and a sump/filtration unit. This will hopefully make keeping the tank clean even easier.
I haven't made a rock background before, and I'm not sure what method to go with. That indecision is whats keeping this from moving forward.
I probably wont end up getting any rhododendron, partly price wise, partly because I found the plants I listed above at my local botanical garden plant sale so I have them already. Although I may get just one... just to see how it does. I looked for the miniature rhododendrons at the plant sale and they had had them,but sold out! I promised my wife no more plants for the moment, think she'll notice just one more?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Uva ursi grows fairly slowly so it may not take the abuse very well. Along with the purslane don't forget that you can also use some of the ice plants, like *Carpobrotus edulis *which is also totally edible. 

You should be able to find purslane at this time of the year in unplanted fields (since it does well in disturbed sites) but the wild version is very prostrate compared to the types grown as a garden green. 

If your willing to go with plants like that, another option is chickweed. It doesn't like getting too hot or dry but is a shallow rooted edible (at least the plant known as Stellaria media).... 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Ed. The Carprobytus looks interesting, but the Stellaria looks a little delicate. 

Slightly off topic, but now that I've been doing some reading, i noticed that most of the plants that we use in terrariums are toxic to some extent or another. After searching the boards, the consensus on Dendroboard seems to be that since the frogs aren't eating them, they are safe to use in our terrariums. 
Ed, are the snakes more susceptible to plant toxins than amphibians? I would have assumed the opposite due to the snakes scales vs the permeability of frog's skin. Or do the dart frogs metabolise the toxins that are absorbed through skin contact in a manner that makes them safe? Or am I barking up the wrong tree (pun unintended) entirely?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Thanks Ed. The Carprobytus looks interesting, but the Stellaria looks a little delicate.
> 
> Slightly off topic, but now that I've been doing some reading, i noticed that most of the plants that we use in terrariums are toxic to some extent or another. After searching the boards, the consensus on Dendroboard seems to be that since the frogs aren't eating them, they are safe to use in our terrariums.
> Ed, are the snakes more susceptible to plant toxins than amphibians? I would have assumed the opposite due to the snakes scales vs the permeability of frog's skin. Or do the dart frogs metabolise the toxins that are absorbed through skin contact in a manner that makes them safe? Or am I barking up the wrong tree (pun unintended) entirely?


The main concern really should be volitile components. I personally wouldn't worry about the berriers on the cottoneaster but volitile oils particularly in a relatively small space should be the real concern here (some latex emitting species of plants like Euphorbia tirucalli are also a concern). With respect to your choices, I only flagged the ones that have volitiles (hence my earlier comment about spice, aromatics)... The reason is that volitiles are often able to bypass the skin and be absorbed through mucous membranes and the lungs, and since the snake is confined with the plant, it is exposed to a much larger and longer dose of the volitiles. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> The reason is that volitiles are often able to bypass the skin and be absorbed through mucous membranes and the lungs, and since the snake is confined with the plant, it is exposed to a much larger and longer dose of the volitiles.


Ed, are you aware of any studies done pertaining to any aspect of this? I've been reading up on methyl salicylate and volatile organics, and haven't come across any information on this particular issue. At this point its more curiosity, but I'd also like the knowledge for future use. I did find http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/44/2/396.full.pdf+html which I thought was interesting, but not helpful.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Ed, are you aware of any studies done pertaining to any aspect of this? I've been reading up on methyl salicylate and volatile organics, and haven't come across any information on this particular issue. At this point its more curiosity, but I'd also like the knowledge for future use. I did find Volatile Organic Compounds Emanating from Indoor Ornamental Plants which I thought was interesting, but not helpful.



If I understand what you are asking... 
We shouldn't be comparing normal releases that occur from an undistrubed plant versus one that has leaves/stems/roots that have been mechanically damaged or bruised. The vast majority of plants aren't a concern since they either aren't likely to release much during the course of the day or don't contain much of the materials of concern. The concern about methyl salicylate isn't the fact that all plants have differing levels used as a signaling molecule but the fact that you have chosen one of the plants that has the highest concentration of it (at levels where the oil can cause overdose and death). If you take a leaf of wintergreen and bruise it, you can smell it strongly....

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> If I understand what you are asking...
> We shouldn't be comparing normal releases that occur from an undistrubed plant versus one that has leaves/stems/roots that have been mechanically damaged or bruised. The vast majority of plants aren't a concern since they either aren't likely to release much during the course of the day or don't contain much of the materials of concern. The concern about methyl salicylate isn't the fact that all plants have differing levels used as a signaling molecule but the fact that you have chosen one of the plants that has the highest concentration of it (at levels where the oil can cause overdose and death). If you take a leaf of wintergreen and bruise it, you can smell it strongly....
> 
> Ed


I was asking more in terms of studies done in this area on general terms, possibly by zoos or similar facilities, to determine the safety of plants for animals in small enclosures, particularly in regards to VOCs released by plants. I'm asking because I would really like to make more enclosures like this in the future. Should I be be determining the safety on a plant by plant basis? And where do I draw the line? This is something I hadn't even realised would be an issue, and I'm realizing how little I know. I don't even know where to start trying to learn.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Zoos maintain lists of edible browse lists (see for example http://www.eaza.net/activities/Documents/NutritionDocs/EAZA-Zoo Nutrition News 2 [01].pdf) but typically don't have lists of plants that can be used in smaller enclosures (which is where we are having the discussion) since the variables can be huge (size, species of animal, diet fed, heating methods are all variables). The hobby routinely uses plants that are often considered unacceptable by zoos for many animals for leaf litter due to the high tannin contents but are safe for the frogs and other herps (Indian almond leaves, many oaks, magonolia ssp). 

In general if you bruise the leaf and get a strong aromatic response, the plant should be viewed with skepticism as being suitable. A few other strong indicators are latex saps (but only in plants that are easy to cause to release it (example Euphorbia tirucalli). The list of plants that are questionable is/are much smaller than those that are acceptable. 

There are a couple of good medicinal botany texts but they are expensive.... 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> There are a couple of good medicinal botany texts but they are expensive....
> 
> Ed


Any you recommend? I already have a few on my Amazon wish list....


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ok. Things are happening. finally. Things have been hectic.. Tank is drilled for the sump/filtration system, I'm waiting on one plumbing piece for the return, which I'll incorporate into a drip waterfall in one corner. I had almost everything I needed in storage, except for one stupid little elbow, which THREE hardware stores dont seem to have... Iv'e ordered foam from here Ethafoam Blocks at NRSweb.com to begin the rockwall, after a couple weeks trying to find free foam scraps proved unsuccessful. 

And to let me really know the project has started to move forward, I have my first setback! I went away for the weekend, I was gone three nights, come back to find my Cotoneaster browning and shrivelled and absolutely covered in some kind of spider mite. About half the plant, including all the new leaves, were dead or dying. I was keeping it in the tank in a pot to see how it would do under the light and it had been doing just fine. I guess the heat this past weekend dried it out too much? So, into the shower it went. Handheld showerhead on full blast and went to town. Knocked some of them off. I'll repeat this treatment for a week, I don't want to do a bleach dip until I'm ready to plant the terrarium, because I want to disturb the roots system as little as possible, but I might have to, in which case I think I need to sanitize everything in there, including the other plants, false bottom, glass... What a pain.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Any you recommend? I already have a few on my Amazon wish list....


The more modern ones are probably much better than my old ones (which are packed in the attic). If your close to Rutgers you may want to see what text they are using for this program Catalog Navigator : Certificate in Medicinal and Economic Botany (24-25 credits) (I took a class in medicinal botany back in 1985). 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wouldn't go the bleach route, especially on a plant that is in such rough shape. Spider mites are common on plants that need humidity and aren't getting it (like rainforest plants kept as houseplants - they are magnets!) and you'll want to give it an alcohol/water/soap bath and then keep up with the showers. The mix should be 30% rubbing alcohol, 70% water, 1 drop of liquid soap. The soap is probably the most important part - it breaks the water tension so that the alcohol/water mixture actually gets down into the parts of the plant that are hiding the mites. Rubbing alcohol is the chemical of choice with pests like this, and when really bad you can use a Q tip with the rubbing alcohol directly on the mites and watch them explode.

With smaller plants that I'm repotting anyways (which you probably will want to do at some point anyways since the mites will be in the substrate) I'll actually just submerge the plant completely in the mixture for 5-10 minutes (depending on the health and type of plant). Push it under the water, shake it a bit to release the air bubbles, and just let it soak. Typical warnings apply - soak the plant in regular water first so it has sucked up good water and won't be inclined to suck up the mix, and make sure the water is on the warm (but not hot) side so you don't chill the plant.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> The more modern ones are probably much better than my old ones (which are packed in the attic). If your close to Rutgers you may want to see what text they are using for this program Catalog Navigator : Certificate in Medicinal and Economic Botany (24-25 credits) (I took a class in medicinal botany back in 1985).
> 
> Ed


I sent the professor an email asking which text books he uses... Hopefully he wont think I'm a kook! I doubt I'll be able to take a course like that with my field of study... I'd love to take some classes once I finish my graduate studies, for my own knowledge, but I have various issues that make school difficult so that may not be a good idea...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Bad news. I'm really aggravated. I think the cotoneaster might be dead. I don't think it was the spider mites, but I have no idea. I watered the plant last week on Thursday really thoroughly. It was beautiful, green and healthy. I went away for the weekend on Friday, came back Tuesday morning. Plant was brown and wilting on the ends of some stems, I examined it, found spider mites. Powerwashed the plant for two days. Today, the plant was practically dead. Damn it... the worst part is I have no idea why.
So, I pruned all the dead growth, which might not have been the best idea but this plant has got to be tough or it isn't a good candidate. I literally have a stump left. Even some of the roots were done for. If it dies, I'm going to try another one. I really liked the look and growth habit, and they're meant to be fairly tough... live and learn. I'll give it a few weeks. 

Meanwhile, the background probably wont be finished for a good 4-8 weeks, so I'm experimenting with some plants, put in substrate to test how they'll do. Vivariums for dart frogs are sooooo much easier!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Stick the plant pot and all into the ground in an area that gets bright indirect lighting and see if it comes back. That should help it be a lot less stressed. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> Stick the plant pot and all into the ground in an area that gets bright indirect lighting and see if it comes back. That should help it be a lot less stressed.
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed, but its GONE. I have no idea why. The roots were a rotten mass. And the creeping raspberry died too.... I had taken it out, because it wasn't doing great, and was going to take it to NJ where the family has a real garden I can plant it in and... whoops. Due to some excessive driving coupled with exhaustion, left it in the car over the weekend. It literally cooked  I'm a moron... sigh...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I wonder if there is a substrate issue going on here, or a transition issue. In terrariums you may have to do a substrate that is pretty different than what they get in the wild to make up for the fact that they are in a much more confined space. Transition can also be important, I'm big on actually taking a lot of growth off (particularly roots) if there is a big change in substrate. 

Temperate species seem almost to be a little more tricky, but I wonder if it's because we're trying deeper rooted plants, or if it's because the plants are older and don't take such large changes as well or.... ?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

But I hadn't taken them out of the pots I bought them in... I put them in the windowsill for approximately two weeks, they did fine. I put them in the terrarium to see how they did under my 4xt5's, they seemed okay till that weekend the cotoneaster went, the raspberries new growth started shrivelling a few days later, I put it back in the windowsill, it continued to get worse, I figured it'd do well outdoors in the ground. Whoops. I'll never know.. I'm beginning to rethink the plans for plants. Perhaps succulents instead of temperate species. The problem with many dessert species are the spines... Euphorbia milli would be perfect but oh wait inch long spikes everywhere. I'm going to take some gardening books out of the library, look for ideas. I'd try a dwarf rhododendron, but I haven't had success with my cheaper plants, I don't want to kill an expensive one!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Edit: Don't tell me. Euphorbia is toxic...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Edit: Don't tell me. Euphorbia is toxic...


Have you considered some of the rosette type Sansavarias? Or some of the Sempervivum sp? 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Ed said:


> Have you considered some of the rosette type Sansavarias?
> 
> Ed


No! Because I don't know what they are! And I'm getting frustrated because the more I research stuff the more I realise how little I know!!! And my libraries selection is not the best. Grrr... 

I'm going to look them up now. I think I need to start frequenting the botanical gardens more often...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> No! Because I don't know what they are! And I'm getting frustrated because the more I research stuff the more I realise how little I know!!! And my libraries selection is not the best. Grrr...
> 
> I'm going to look them up now. I think I need to start frequenting the botanical gardens more often...


Check out UCBG * Sansevieria *... it has some good basic information. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks Ed. Some of them seem fairly easily found as well. But, I've run into a snag. My poor snake has been the victim of some substrate experiments. Every other week I changed the substrate in her 10 gallon tank, trying to find something she wouldnt excessively burrow into, or would make a burrow and only use that burrow and not keep on digging. Nothing. I'm concerned that if I use a soil mix that she cant burrow in, she may harm herself trying, or that the plants wont have enough drainage. I'm going to continue with the build, but I'm going to change my plans. I'm going to use groundcovers that will grow out of crevices, such as sedum and phlox, and give her a small area to burrow in, as well as a few hides, and use slate to cover the areas I dont want her digging in, and plant the groundcovers between the gaps in the slate... I think if I try for the woodland scene I was going for, I might force her to alter her natural behaviour, which I dont want to mess with simply because I wanted something to look a certain way. 

I haven't really spent much time on this build, apart from reading, so its not that big a deal. I may change my plans completely, get her a different tank, and use this one for something else. I'm not sure if what I've done so far would be suitable for darts though... specifically auratus or terribilis, which are next on my want list. 

I didn't really want this to turn into a discussion about snake behaviour, this being a dart frog forum. Maybe I'll ask a mod to move it to the lounge. Thoughts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> But, I've run into a snag. My poor snake has been the victim of some substrate experiments. Every other week I changed the substrate in her 10 gallon tank, trying to find something she wouldnt excessively burrow into, or would make a burrow and only use that burrow and not keep on digging. Nothing. I'm concerned that if I use a soil mix that she cant burrow in, she may harm herself trying, or that the plants wont have enough drainage.


Sorry but I had to laugh when I read this... I had to think back to all of the years I spent trying to keep kingsnakes out where visitors could see them (so they didn't think the cage was empty) which was why I made the comments about thier fossorial behaviors early in this thread.... 



jacobi said:


> I'm going to continue with the build, but I'm going to change my plans. I'm going to use groundcovers that will grow out of crevices, such as sedum and phlox, and give her a small area to burrow in, as well as a few hides, and use slate to cover the areas I dont want her digging in, and plant the groundcovers between the gaps in the slate...


If you go this route, your going to want to be able to easily access the hardscaping elements so you can scrub them to clean urate and fecal deposits off of them (and trust me, the snake will seem to choose the hardest to clean spots in some perverse way to drive you crazy). You should also consider investing in some inexpesive wire bristled brushes to use to scrub the slate. Over time, you'll still get urate stains and will want to pull the slate out to really clean it. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I'm not sure which route I'm going, to be honest. I know I can make this work as a terrarium, I'm having doubts about making it work as a fossorial snake proof vivarium. I'm beginning to think I might be better off waiting and continue these plans once I have space for a 55 gallon. 
I enjoy keeping and caring for these animals, but I enjoy even more showcasing them in a display vivarium in a way that gets even people who have no knowledge or interest in the subject to appreciate it, and in this case, that might be better accomplished through a larger vivarium. And possibly a different snake lol. 
So, since I already have the tank drilled for drainage, waterfall up and running, homemade filtration system in place (very simple no need for wires and pumps when the water is already draining constantly out of the terrarium into the sump bucket), false bottom ready, rock wall background almost ready for the first layer of cement... I could either continue it as I've been planning, perhaps put some small lizards in there (I'm thinking Sceloporus sp. they are one of my favourite small lizards)... OR...

I could make it into a vivarium for dartfrogs! I can already see some green and black auratus peeking out from the rock wall caves in my mind  And according to what I've been reading here on Dendroboard, auratus can be found in rocky areas, so the rockwall wouldn't be to different from their natural environment.

I had been planning on getting some auratus soon anyway, they were going to go were the snake is now, except in a new 20 gallon... Hmm...


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I found this interesting so I thought I'd share it here, I'm not sure where else to put it.

I'm experimenting with a sand/coir/charcoal/shredded leaf litter substrate, to which I added a handful of Isopods and springtails. When the snake has a bowel movement, it takes under 24 hours for the feces to completely disappear. The bugs clean it up completely. Not even an odor after the first couple hours.


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

maybe some dwarf iris, likes sandy soil lots of different types (some are tiny) in my yard there is some wood iris witch only gets to about 6".


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

ICS523 said:


> maybe some dwarf iris, likes sandy soil lots of different types (some are tiny) in my yard there is some wood iris witch only gets to about 6".


Oh that's a great idea! I hadn't thought of bulbs. There's probably quite a few that'd work. I could even plant them in their pots in the substrate, so fossorial activity doesn't disturb them... Hopefully.


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## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

I have no idea if they need dormancy though, they mostly come from temperate zones. if it was in a pot you could always take it out in the winter and bring it outside.


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