# bloated southern variabilis froglet



## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

This little guy had been developing perfectly as far as I could tell, crawling out of the water off an on during the last 4 or 5 days, and then I found him this morning fully out of the water but ballooned up like this. 










Here's a pic of his tad tank that I took him out of today:









It is aged tap water in a small critter keeper with an occasionally replaced indian almond leaf, java moss, duck weed, and an aquarium rock. It's kept at room temperature where my house thermostat is set up to cycle from 67 to 74. Several other tads have morphed out successfully and healthy from this same tub.

I am, as soon as this is posted, running out to the drug store for some pedialyte. The frog is currently in a ff cup with dampened paper towel lining and a less-dampened paper towel crumpled for cover.

Our only local vet does not work with (nor seemed interested in) amphibians or any exotic pets, but I will start searching for vets elsewhere in Missouri. I fear not being able to get to one at all though.  Any advice is welcome!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/16433-emergency-supportive-care.html 

You ideally should get some Amphibian ringer's solution.... 

Ed


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

Thank you. Everything I am doing now is in response to reading Emergency Supportive Care thread, good resource. The only place so far I have found online (Fischer) to order ARS requires applying for an account, which I cannot do according to the representative I spoke with on the phone, without being affiliated with a scientific or educatinal company prior to ordering. Do you know of an alternative source?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ringer Solution, Amphibian, Laboratory Grade, 1 L - Chemicals P - T - Chemistry - Chemistry & Physics - Carolina Biological Supply Company 

I know for a fact that a person can order from them since I've ordered from them..... 

Ed


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

Thank you! I have an order placed. Ouch, overnight shipping was expensive, and it still may not make it here soon with the weekend coming up... I'll give some short pedialyte baths in the meantime.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Maybe put him in a slightly more saline then normal solution to draw some water out?


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Maybe put him in a slightly more saline then normal solution to draw some water out?


Pedialyte does fit that description, right? I'm just worried about the lack of calcium, specially seeing that this a brand spanking new froglet that has yet to eat a dusted bug. (going to offer some springtails now, btw)


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

Oh, by the way, I do have some pure powdered Calcium Carbonate on hand that I've used in making clay substrates. I have absolutely no clue whether it would be beneficial to mix some into the pedialyte until I have my hands on real ARS?


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

It doesn't seem at all interested in eating, but it's probably too early for that. I noticed this little tail nub it is still getting nourishment from when I put it in the Pedialyte.

Get better, fatty!


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

Just for clarification (i didnt mean to come off sounding like an a$$)...I "liked" that for the "get better,fatty!" the way it sounded in my head made me laugh. I sincerely hope the little guy gets better ASAP!


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

It's ok, I understand. Despite the dire straights that this frog is in, its current chubby state is quite endearing. I'm pulling for him/her!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DannyMeister said:


> Oh, by the way, I do have some pure powdered Calcium Carbonate on hand that I've used in making clay substrates. I have absolutely no clue whether it would be beneficial to mix some into the pedialyte until I have my hands on real ARS?


Don't mess with the dissolved solutes unless you have a good idea with what you are doing. Calcium carbonate is hard to get to dissolve in water and you can change the pH of the solution if you aren't careful. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DannyMeister said:


> It doesn't seem at all interested in eating, but it's probably too early for that. I noticed this little tail nub it is still getting nourishment from when I put it in the Pedialyte.
> 
> Get better, fatty!


Forget about offering it food for the moment. Even if it was inclined to eat (which I highly doubt), it would be unable to due to the massive distortion caused by the retained fluids... You can see where the throat area is distended? That is going to interfere with breathing much less feeding... 

Ed


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

Ed said:


> Ringer Solution, Amphibian, Laboratory Grade, 1 L - Chemicals P - T - Chemistry - Chemistry & Physics - Carolina Biological Supply Company
> 
> I know for a fact that a person can order from them since I've ordered from them.....
> 
> Ed


I am interested in this product, but it states that it cannot be shipped to a residential address?
Just wondering why you were able to order it?
Nevermind, I found the link in the "Emergency supportive care" page from Fisher Science Education.
Thanks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just order it and see if they ship it. 
I've had it shipped to me. If your concerned, ask your vet to order it for you (or see if he'll let it be delivered there). 

it isn't hazerdous in any way shape or form so it shouldn't be an issue. 
Ed


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

How is little fatty doing today?


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

Looks exactly the same as yesterday. I see a gasp every once in a while. Fatty's taking his second Pedialyte bath right now. The overnight delivery of ARS of course didn't make it in today since I ordered late in the day yesterday. I have an appointment with a vet tomorrow morning. The assistant on the phone said they would accept frogs, but the doctor wasn't available then for me to ask if he has experience with darts. Hopefully he can help.

I guess "Fatty" is official now. The vet wanted the name of my pet when scheduling my appointment.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One of the things I've seen as a supportive measure in extreme cases by vets is for them to aspirate excess fluid from the abdomen. That helps reduce the stress and pressure on the frog's organs. 

Some comments

Ed


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

DannyMeister said:


> I guess "Fatty" is official now. The vet wanted the name of my pet when scheduling my appointment.


I love that!!! hahaha! joking aside, best of luck tomorrow! hoping for the best


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

Unfortunately, the vet had no real amphibian experience. He seemed tickled pink to have such a little animal in his office. Really nice guy, but not much help. He didn't have a scale sensitive enough to pick up on the frog's weight. The only thing he could find when searching his literature was a formula for amphibian ringer solution, which he was willing to call around to pharmacies to get the chemicals for, but when I said I had some coming in the mail, he said I was way ahead of him. I mentioned that getting a diagnosis as to the reason WHY the frog had edema, such as a bacterial or viral infection was usually necessary, but he said he wouldn't know what to look for, or how to come up with a small enough dose.

I wish that these busy doctors didn't have underlings running interference for them who are willing to take appointments for species that their doctor can't handle. 

I'll widen the search by a few hundred miles, but I'm afraid that Fatty is going to have to get better on his own with some help from ARS (still waiting for it to arrive) or he's doomed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If he is willing to get the supplies for a hypertonic ringer's solution, then that can help reduce the fluid retained by the frog. At the zoo, we kept frogs (and other amphibians) that were severely bloated in hypertonic ARS for up to a couple a hours at a time to help the frog reduce the bloating. 

He is willing to work with you, that is a critically important thing to consider. Be polite and ask him for help.... Some of the tests like blood draws to look for septicemia or kidney disfuntions are impossible to run on a frog that small which is why he was honest about the tests.... He can call Dr Wright (one of the author editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (http://www.azeah.com/About.asp?id=73)), or the nearest big zoo for help... 

As for causes, it could be from kidney damage (or improperly developed kidney from hypovitaminosis of A), liver damage, bacterial infection, nitrite poisoning, viral infection, fungal infection, something I didn't think of off the cuff, or some combination of the above.... 

Ed


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

what about vets for any local zoos? While I worked with animal planet and universal we used vets from the animal kindgom at disney for our exotics because they worked at small vet clinics in the area (so we didnt have to deal with disney lol) if you call around to a couple vets you might be able to find a specialist. but this is all under the assumption you havent called around. if so, disregard. but regardless I hope your ringer solution gets in asap! 

hoping the best for you and fatty!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

guylovesreef said:


> what about vets for any local zoos? While I worked with animal planet and universal we used vets from the animal kindgom at disney for our exotics because they worked at small vet clinics in the area (so we didnt have to deal with disney lol) if you call around to a couple vets you might be able to find a specialist. but this is all under the assumption you havent called around. if so, disregard. but regardless I hope your ringer solution gets in asap!
> 
> hoping the best for you and fatty!


Many zoos have the vets working for them full time, and usually only the smaller ones contract with outside vets for care (for example, Philadelphia Zoo has two full time vets, a full time board certified exotic animal pathologist, three vet techs and usually one interning vet).... 

Ed


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

Ive personally never had any experience with city zoos. I honestly wasnt sure if they had full time physicians or not. I was just going off what Ive done with the minimal experiences Ive had.


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

The swelling has gone down a good bit! Long way to go though. This is just from good fortune and Pedialyte. Never pay for FedEX priority overnight on a Thursday night... still waiting on that ARS. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Tapatalk 2


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

Great news, Fatty is comin back!


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

I haven't seen any eating yet, but this frog is looking fairly normal.


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

How great that is.
Did you finally get the amphibian ringers?
I ordered from Fischer and they just ignored my order all together, had a pending charge on my credit card, then boom that disappeared and I never heard from them again.
Now I have ordered from Carolina Biological Supply Company, so hopefully I will get my ringers solution one of these days!
Such good news for your little guy, wonder why this happened to begin with?
BTW where in Missouri are you located? I am in the bootheel.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I've seen this once before in a flavovittata metamorph. I am pretty sure it's a water conditions issue. The froglet deflated over a few days after metamorphosis, no measures necessary.


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm near Springfield, so not really that near you, but it's a pretty drive to head down that way. Yes, the ARS from Carolina did arrive and provided quite a few baths for the frog over the span of a week. 

Johnc, any particular water quality issues to look into? Other froglets seem to be doing fine. This little guy took nearly2 weeks to deflate. 

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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Well in my case I felt guilty for neglecting his water changes for a long time. That's what I put it down to, but I never really investigated. I've been very sure to do my water changes since then though.


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