# Complete fruit fly media mix



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Where can I get a fruit fly media mix that is kind of like mix with water and tada...instant fruit fly food!


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

MD_Frogger said:


> Where can I get a fruit fly media mix that is kind of like mix with water and tada...instant fruit fly food!


Uhhhh...just about anywhere. Most of the available mixes from vendors here fit that description. 
I'm near you (Frederick, MD) if you're interested.
Scott


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I use media from Josh's Frogs. I have tried many kinds and his seems to produce the greatest cultures and smells good enough to eat!!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I agree with Lisa, it produces great and smells good so it doesn't gross you out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just a comment or two... when discussing media that produces well, people should keep in mind that the ffs will adapt to your culture methods and media. Now, this is not necessarily a good thing. If you always use flies from the first boom of the population you will be selecting the flies to mature rapidly but they will also be sensitive to ammonia and other bioproducts of the culture and will die off due to this sensitivity which is why a lot of people see the single boom in the fly population and the culture then crashes. 
There is some indication that there may also be some nutritional differences in the flies depending on when they mature... (I have the reference around here somewhere). 

How you set up your cultures can also significantly change the way in which the cultures smell.. for example I use a modified carolina mix and it smells a lot like yeasty bread when the bread is rising.. but when I used it initially, I got some really foul smelling cultures as it had some other microbes colonize it. 
The things that can really modify the odor of the media are protien added to the media and the microbes that get well established. A further complication is how deep the media is in the container as thicker levels of media can allow greater anaerobic digestion of the media (including the protiens) which then increases how bad the media can smell. (this is why people recommend getting a lot of maggots early into the cultures as they churn and aerate the media). 

Ed


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Ed, since our media was the only one mentioned, your comments could very easily be construed as pertaining to our media. So, a few comments....



> when discussing media that produces well, people should keep in mind that the ffs will adapt to your culture methods and media.


True. However, not all medias are created equally. You will get better production with some medias than you will EVER get with other medias. The right ingredients (with attention to QUALITY) in the right ratios will lead to better yields.



> If you always use flies from the first boom of the population you will be selecting the flies to mature rapidly but they will also be sensitive to ammonia and other bioproducts of the culture and will die off due to this sensitivity which is why a lot of people see the single boom in the fly population and the culture then crashes.


This was one of the key areas of our research. While I don't think this "key" can be "cracked" totally, I believe we have made serious in-roads in this area. When this economy puts Josh's Frogs out of business I'll write a really long post...



> How you set up your cultures can also significantly change the way in which the cultures smell.. for example I use a modified carolina mix and it smells a lot like yeasty bread when the bread is rising.. but when I used it initially, I got some really foul smelling cultures as it had some other microbes colonize it.
> The things that can really modify the odor of the media are protien added to the media and the microbes that get well established. A further complication is how deep the media is in the container as thicker levels of media can allow greater anaerobic digestion of the media (including the protiens) which then increases how bad the media can smell. (this is why people recommend getting a lot of maggots early into the cultures as they churn and aerate the media).


This was another key area of our research. There are ways to limit smells inside of the culture media (without limiting production as most of our research was battling great smell without lowering production levels). Again, when we go out of business I will post a long post...

There are good medias on the market and then there is "crap".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Josh


It was not part of my intent to even give the idea that I intended to single out your media so let me correct that now.. (and expand on the discussion a little). 

(when using you below I do not mean you personally but am using it as a generic pronoun)

I was referring to idea of media in general and not towards yours or any of the other sellers on this or other forums. One of the major discussions when media is brought up is that it produces large amounts of flies. What people really need to evaluate is does this produce the best fly which is in part influenced by the media and in part influenced by the genetics of that fly. They have to be considered jointly instead of production as the sole selling point. Ideally what I want people to take away from this (and I usually want people to think about items instead of blind acceptance (one of the reasons I often post citations or references)) is that you may get great production from a media but this may be in spite of the media and in addition may not produce the best nutritional fly for the frogs. Now your and some of the other medias that are available to the public are modified towards giving a good production ratio as well as attempting to produce a nutritionally better fly, this is not the case if one is simply using a basic potato flake, sugar, yeast recipe (basic carolina recipe) as this can produce a fly that is deficient in some nutrients. Rapid developing flies (rapid blooms that are also sensitive to ammonia etc) may also be deficient as some sequestering of nutrients has been sacrificed to provide for rapid growth, when the two issues are combined then you it is a real possibility that the diet has some potentially serious holes in it. Medias that also contain nutritional additions such as carotenoid sources, or the additions of some fruits, will produce a more balanced fly as this allows for the sequestering of some additional nutrients but this is also dependent on the genetics of the flies. 

With respect to the boom and bust I agree that it may not be feasible to totally crack but by maintaining diversity in the genetics of the flies being cultured you can at least delay it. If you use only flies from the first bloom you artificially select for this sensitivity, if you use flies only from later blooms you actually shift it towards slower development but flies that can tolerate the ammonia and other later conditions. If you use a mixture of flies from several blooms and (thus several cultures) you are then working to maintain the genetic diversity of the cultures and prevent the cultures from losing this diversity. I am not saying that there will not be shifts as there will be but you can significantly delay or reduce them. 
Maintaining the diversity maintains not only the production of the cultures but can reduce shifts in nutritional variations as well (which is then interdependent on the flies). Another way to keep the diversity moving is to periodically aquire a culture from someone else who has the same strain of flies (but people should be aware that not all flightless strains can be mixed (well provided you want a flightless fly and not a flying one)). I usually add an outside culture of gliders to my flies every 1-2 years to help keep the inbreeding down.. 

So to repeat, in no way was I attempting to comment on your media in that post. 

Ed


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Ed, I understand that you were not pointing at our media (or specifically anyone's media). I just wanted to comment should someone make the connection through rash reading.

No hard feelings at all.

Yes, genetic diversification is important, but for the vast majority of hobbyists, that is hard to do when you only need enough flies for 2-4 frogs. Hence, a reason to buy some cultures every now and then to diversify your genetic material...wink, wink...


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Hey Ed, a little unrelated but still about insect nutrition - would you agree with Julio that feeding dog treats to springtails would be damaging to frogs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Hey Ed, a little unrelated but still about insect nutrition - would you agree with Julio that feeding dog treats to springtails would be damaging to frogs?


I haven't seen that thread as of yet. What is the contention on the dog treats? I have gotten away from using grain based foods for springtails as it often led to mite out breaks in my cultures. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

joshsfrogs said:


> Yes, genetic diversification is important, but for the vast majority of hobbyists, that is hard to do when you only need enough flies for 2-4 frogs. Hence, a reason to buy some cultures every now and then to diversify your genetic material...wink, wink...


Hi Josh,

I thought I mentioned this in my post.... I may not do it too often as I am pretty diligent in making sure I use different cultures and ages of cultures but people who are not as diligent probably should be doing it much more frequently. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> I haven't seen that thread as of yet. What is the contention on the dog treats? I have gotten away from using grain based foods for springtails as it often led to mite out breaks in my cultures.
> 
> Ed


Oh ok, here it goes: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/34239-new-springtail-food.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Check that thread, so there isn't a hijack. 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

joshsfrogs said:


> Ed, since our media was the only one mentioned, your comments could very easily be construed as pertaining to our media. So, a few comments....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've used some "crap" medias in the past and you're right about that. I've been using your media for a while with the same procedures that I was doing with another media. I'm getting much better production for sustained amounts of time. I throw out cultures after a month and regularly have been throwing out thriving cultures when in the past the cultures were nearly done. I don't really pay attention to the smell all that much, but I guess that means they don't smell bad

You sound pretty depressing with your out of business talk....hopefully you'll be able to pull through.


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