# Betta in water feature



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

If I'm being an idiot please be kind. I'm new to the hobby and just in the researching phase. Would it be okay to put a betta in the water feature of my viv if I choose to incorporate one? (If I do I know, access to the pump, tall false bottom so as not to end up with a swamp, etc.) I just wasn't sure to reason for or against doing so. Thanks for any words of wisdom anyone may happen to have.


----------



## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

hey matt , the biggest concern i see is tank temp also would this be seperate to a false bottom hate to have the fishy get lostunder the false bottom ... If you decide to make a build thread let me know interested to see how that works .. is this what your planning "A paludarium is a type of vivarium that incorporates both terrestrial and aquatic elements. Paludaria (or paludariums) usually consist of an enclosed container in which organisms specific to the biome being simulated are kept. They may be maintained for purely aesthetic reasons or for scientific or horticultural purposes. The word 'paludarium' comes from the Latin word 'paludal' meaning marshes or swamps and '-arium' which means an enclosed container." ... also where ya from ?


----------



## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

The waterfeature / pond of any kind with fish should be large enough, means you'll have to decrease land part. The ground part is more essential for frogs, even arboreal ones, thus you will need a really big build. 
It's better to start with lesser vivs to learn & found out what you can do by your own mistakes. After successful running of a, let's say, 30g viv you'll find yourself inspired for new species & new volums.
I mean try to stick only on frogs with your first build, read, learn, biuld you first viv, and than you can be prepaired for more complicated & larger enclosures.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

I understand where you're coming from, though there is no way I'm doing stick only. The biggest appeal to me is creating a living breathing ecosystem. I've been doing my research and I've done planted aquariums big and small (aquatic if that wasnt obvious) and still have a reef w drilled sump and fuge. 

I'm not set on the betta idea, just throwing it around. As it stands he's in a bowl and it'd be nice to give him a little more room. If i decide to do a water feature I'm going to do a deep false bottom, drill the bottom, and set up a bulkhead with a valved tube so i can easily perform water changes. Plus with it having a deeper false bottom with raised eggcrate i can allow for more total water volume which should make it easier to keep clean. Again though, thanks for the advice. I'm not set on the betta idea but I'm fairly certain ill set up a water feature. I've been reading the top ten beginner mistakes and i know to set it up with easy pump access. The drilled draingives me a way to fix mistakes and I'm considering getting another hole drilled at the very top of my false bottom with a tube running to a res so i have a fail safe against flooding my tank. I'm trying to be smart about my first viv and learn from mother mistake. 

Wow. I talk to much. Sorry for the book.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

Sorry about androids auto correct.


----------



## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

my biggest failure was have he pump for water circulation / waterfall to be on the bottom of everything they clog mega easy and would be better creating some way to do this without the pump / or whatever you use under everything = sump idea sounds like perfect bliss for this


----------



## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

IMO, the betta wouldnt have much more room than the bowl... for example, say the pond area is approximately 8''x4''X4''deep...thats only 0.5 gallons...its most likely less than the bowl... plus who knows, the betta could become aggressive and attack anything that enters the water... IMO, things like ghost shrimp, tetras, and minnows, would work much better...


----------



## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

thats with out how big the tank is going to be ? What if its a 45-55 gallon even half for frogs and half for fish would be good alot of people dont put thier frog/s in anything bigger then a 20-30 gallon . I think with a big enough tank a water feature would be viable and welcoming . hurry up and build the thing lol. btw this guy has the know how .. he deals with everything and hopefully with my help now darts will be added to his list !


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I second the thought that the water feature may not provide more space than the bowl, with the added bit of being much harder to clean. There are a lot of misconceptions about bettas that are very popular...the idea betta enclosure is at least 5 gallons, and heated to the low-mid 80's. Mind you that bettas can reach the 3" mark, not including the tail, when kept properly.

Tetras, etc. are also unsuitable for water volumes of much less than 10 gallons, and they are generally active schooling fish that should be kept in numbers with room to move around.

The only fish out there that I can think of that actively prefers small, stagnant bodies of water is the mangrove killifish, Kryptolebias marmoratus. Very cool little fish. Rather difficult to find for sale, though.

All in all, it comes down to the size of the tank you're using, the space you're willing to allocate for the fish, and the type of heating/filtration you're making available to the fish.


----------



## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

It can somewhat easyly be done.
If you use a pump, be sure that it doesn't make much if at all any current, betta REALLY don't like moving water.
I don't think a betta would ever attack a frog... it is somewhat of a myth that they are agressive. In fact, they will atk anything that looks like a male betta, and guess what? golden fish really looks like male betta to them, hence the popular belief that betta are agressive. If put with MANY other types of fish that don't look like them, they won't ever do anything mean.
I personally don't like betta much for pallu tho, because betta require stagnant water and pallu with stagnant water are not very nice...
guppies, chinese neons, danios and specially killifishes are probably a much better choice of fish for pallus

btw, i've kept a betta in around 200-300ml of water for well over a year!
another betta is being picky and will ONLY have FF for food


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

FwoGiZ said:


> btw, i've kept a betta in around 200-300ml of water for well over a year!
> another betta is being picky and will ONLY have FF for food



I had to use an online converter for this, but isn't 200ml only just over 0.05 gallons?? This is disgusting, and should NOT be encouraged. I have seen bettas live over 8 years when kept in reasonable sized tanks with filters and heaters.


----------



## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

wow our first fish hate crime  .... bettas in those small globes or tanks isnt right... im thinking even if the make a high false bottom with a nice water feature especialy in the 45 -55 long that would be better then what most fish deal with ..... you go in pet stores and see betas in a cup of water and they look content ... anything would be better then that .


----------



## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

i am not encouraging this... I am just saying bettas dont need all what your saying
do you know where and how they live in the nature?
these guys are tough, and ask anyone who s been into freshwater aquariums, filters are overated... nothing beats a well establish good bacteria flora
i still think they're not the best for palu


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

FwoGiZ said:


> i am not encouraging this... I am just saying bettas dont need all what your saying
> do you know where and how they live in the nature?
> these guys are tough, and ask anyone who s been into freshwater aquariums, filters are overated... nothing beats a well establish good bacteria flora
> i still think they're not the best for palu


Yes, actually I do. Do you know where they live in nature? Swamps and rice paddies..not puddles, not fist-sized holes of water. Their habitats are shallow, but expansive.

The mangrove killifish, by comparison, prefers water-filled crab burrows, or even out of the water altogether. A perfect fish for tiny bodies of water


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

you didn't mention how big the water area will be... i wouldn't put a betta in anything less than 5 gallons of water. just because they "can" live in a cup, doesn't mean they "should" live in a cup. you could live in a 5' by 5' room, but you wouldn't be happy.

not sure what temperature your house is at, but anything over 70 and under 79 should be fine. you'll also need a filter. again, they can live without a filter, but then so can any other fish. doesn't mean they will enjoy it.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

First off, thank you Catman for the vote of confidence and everyone for your words of wisdom. The Bettas are now each in gallon bowls. (Don't stab me in the neck just yet. In nature they oft dwell in tiny puddles. That's not to say I wouldn't rather them in a bigger set up, I just don't have any for them atm, hence the inquiry. The older one, Henry, came from a cup, went into a 2.5g planted aquarium, went to a twenty extra tall, then to a 75g planted. And yeah, betta are very docile in regards to anything that doesn't look like another male betta. Hey actually only got moved to a bowl because I had a couple of fish that tore up his fins. (You'd never be able t tell now.) But bettas do much better in warmer water and just because they naturally live in stagnant water sometimes, doesn't mean they wont do better in cleaner water. Plus, he'd get more attention and better quality food in the tank.

As for a 45 or 55... I can't go with something that big for the tank. I'm looking at a 29 or 37. Something 30in long as I have a stand and dual t5ho already for it. Even if its only a gallon in his swimming area, itll be two to three times that in total water volume in the false bottom as I plan for it to be inaccessible to fish and frog, it will be water permeable so as to not always need much external filtration. I like the idea of the little box being as self sustaining as possible. 

As for it being a lot more work, I don't see how it's all that much if done right. Some passive carbon off the bat to assist the newly establishing bacterial bed, unclogging pump from time to time, flipping a valve to drain off some water if I over mist or to drain and replace half the water. I'm sure I'll probably run into some pitfalls along the way, but I think the benefits outweigh the additional effort. It gives me an addition piece of the chain of life, additional beauty in the tank, consistent added humidity from the moving water, if I were to end up in some sort of emergency situation and couldn't get home to mist the frog have a place to soak, and if I were to be so lucky, I might just be able to get away with raising tads in tank instead of having to screw around with incubators and petri dishes.

But who knows, maybe I'm just a pie eyed newb about to get a crash coarse in Murphy's Law. Either way, it'll be a lot of fun.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

vespers_ said:


> you didn't mention how big the water area will be... i wouldn't put a betta in anything less than 5 gallons of water. just because they "can" live in a cup, doesn't mean they "should" live in a cup. you could live in a 5' by 5' room, but you wouldn't be happy.
> 
> not sure what temperature your house is at, but anything over 70 and under 79 should be fine. you'll also need a filter. again, they can live without a filter, but then so can any other fish. doesn't mean they will enjoy it.


If I do end up moving Henry over, I'll be running a pump for a water fall and passive carbon (probably directly in from of the intake for the pump. I figure over time as the tank matures, there will be the bacterial bed from the water alone plus filtration from the fact that it's part of the over all water column. I don't know exactly how large the body of water will be. I haven't even bought to tank yet. I doubt the swimmable area will be five gallons, but I'm positive the total volume will be over that. But like I said, anything over a gallon is more than he's currently used to and he'll have natural access to a better source of food.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

manicmatt said:


> If I do end up moving Henry over, I'll be running a pump for a water fall and passive carbon (probably directly in from of the intake for the pump. I figure over time as the tank matures, there will be the bacterial bed from the water alone plus filtration from the fact that it's part of the over all water column. I don't know exactly how large the body of water will be. I haven't even bought to tank yet. I doubt the swimmable area will be five gallons, but I'm positive the total volume will be over that. But like I said, anything over a gallon is more than he's currently used to and he'll have natural access to a better source of food.


well yes, bacteria will build up in the substrate, but not nearly as much as you would get in a proper filter. you could probably get a filter rather than a simple pump for the waterfall. it'll give you filtration and do just as good a job as the pump for moving water.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

Those little pumps (at least the ones I've seen) are shottily built and tend to fall apart. Generally there's just a little floss (which would seem to clog very easily in such an environment) and a tiny bit of carbon. I think I could get better filtration by cutting a foam cube so the pump is seated inside it and passively running carbon. I could be wrong though and either way, thank you for the input.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

manicmatt said:


> Those little pumps (at least the ones I've seen) are shottily built and tend to fall apart. Generally there's just a little floss (which would seem to clog very easily in such an environment) and a tiny bit of carbon. I think I could get better filtration by cutting a foam cube so the pump is seated inside it and passively running carbon. I could be wrong though and either way, thank you for the input.


yeah i'm a little unsure of exactly how that would work. i've been wondering about that myself since i'm setting up a paludarium-ish tank. i wondered if you could simply put a piece of sponge or bio balls in the tank and run water through it/them. it would grow bacteria and filter the water, it just wouldn't remove the particles from the water. 

if the pump has floss in it, i would see if you can change it out for a sponge, they work a lot better imo. i don't see why putting the pump into a sponge cube wouldn't work, if the pump is strong enough to pull in the water.


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Keeping this short, since I have to run...

There are small canister filters out there intended for turtle tanks. I highly recommend one if you're still going to do this.

Bettas are not found in puddle, aside from being stranded in the dry season. Puddles are not permanent, and the fish generally perish unless rain returns. It's not a long-term habitat.

As for my own opinion, the life of a fish is as precious as the life of a frog. Doing it because you think it will be cool, and "oh well" if it doesn't work isn't really much of a conscientious effort put towards the well-being of the fish.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

I'm not doing it because I 'think it'll be cool,' I'm considering doing it because it'll be a better life than the betta currently has. I won't do it if it's less room, but if it's the same or more he'll get the added benefit of a larger range of food, filtration and warmer water temp (winter months, as it stands its probably around 80 now.) I' not going to just throw something in a bit of water and say whatever. I send people away at the pet store for that all the time. But as it stand, I may be able to give him a better life than he currently enjoys.


----------



## catman25 (Jul 17, 2007)

We could say this about everything I have frogs in 20 g tanks - 55 g tanlks but in my opinion that still isnt alot of space for the frogs ... I think we should hold opinion at bay and offer suggestions to make the idea the best is can be .... Or maybe bring up some prior experiances another member can live off from like with new coco fiber or any substrate the residue is very dark and thick ... added a fish should be after the tank has cycled a few times... peace


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

If you periodically cleaned the foam/sponge and replaced the carbon it'd be taking it out of the water just the same as a canister or hang on back. As long as the particles are still in the filter media, and the filter is still running, they're still in the system, still breaking down. The only filtration thats actually removing particulate from the system as a whole is a protein skimmer.

But I think if the sponge cube was completely submerged, and pulling threw it is the only way for water to enter the pump, there's no reason it shouldn't work. As for bio balls, I guess you could use them, but I don't see much necessity for it. If your system's water is all intertwined, ie not a completely contained water feature, then you have every surface the water touches regularly for aquatic bacterial filtration and then the the rest of the system doing it's thing as well. Just my thoughts on it though. 



vespers_ said:


> yeah i'm a little unsure of exactly how that would work. i've been wondering about that myself since i'm setting up a paludarium-ish tank. i wondered if you could simply put a piece of sponge or bio balls in the tank and run water through it/them. it would grow bacteria and filter the water, it just wouldn't remove the particles from the water.
> 
> if the pump has floss in it, i would see if you can change it out for a sponge, they work a lot better imo. i don't see why putting the pump into a sponge cube wouldn't work, if the pump is strong enough to pull in the water.


----------



## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

My main concern with this would be how you are actually going to create a large enough water area while maintaining sufficient floor space for the frogs in a relatively small tank. Imagine you have a water "pond" roughly 8"x8"x5", which would be a bit over a gallon. The important thing to remember is that many dart frogs are not good at getting in and out of pools, so they need more of a gradual slope for easy access so they don't drown. So if you had the above pond dimensions and wanted a 45 degree angle sloping out on each side (lengthwise), that would be another 7 inches approximately each direction. Factor in drainage layers, gravel transition areas, etc., and you are suddenly down to a 29 gallon tank that only has 8"x12" floorspace and only 12" of height. 
This is just an example and it could be done differently, but you get my point. If the focus is to have several dart frogs and house the betta appropriately, I don't see how you can do it. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you are qualified and capable of building it, and it sounds like a neat project, but it would be much better in a larger tank (at least 55 gallons probably). If you don't have room, I would suggest a 20 gallon tank for the dart frogs and upgrade the betta to a 5 gallon instead of trying to cram everything into one tank, which may not be the best option for the animals involved.
Bryan


----------



## mack (May 17, 2005)

i would suggest looking into rivulus species killifish. i had them live and breed for several generations in a frog tank. they live in small puddles on the rainforest floor, and are uniquely adapted to live in conditions very like those in our tanks. they like to bask on wood or mossy surfaces out of the water! so you see them hanging out a lot. they are not as colorful as most killies, but cool none the less.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

Like i said before, i won't do it i dont think the conditions will up to snuff. The killifish area honestly sounding like the winning candidate. Thanks again everyone.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

mack said:


> i would suggest looking into rivulus species killifish. i had them live and breed for several generations in a frog tank. they live in small puddles on the rainforest floor, and are uniquely adapted to live in conditions very like those in our tanks. they like to bask on wood or mossy surfaces out of the water! so you see them hanging out a lot. they are not as colorful as most killies, but cool none the less.


Any common names to try and find them under? Most shops are going to think I'm insane if I give them a species name. (Great shop 'round these parts.)


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vespers_ said:


> well yes, bacteria will build up in the substrate, but not nearly as much as you would get in a proper filter.


 
On what are you basing this claim?


----------



## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

perhaps vampire crabs would be a better candidate as an inhabitant of this tank rather than darts. Its already been established that darts need more floor space than what you are going to be able to provide in suck a small tank.

Honesly, i enjoy looking at a simple paludarium with fish only with a large shallow pond filled with aquatic and marginal plants. Just my opinion though


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

Ed said:


> On what are you basing this claim?


I too almost curious because filters work based on available surface area. There's a lot more surface area in the substrate. Just saying. Though i did pick up a small canister filter.


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

ryan10517 said:


> perhaps vampire crabs would be a better candidate as an inhabitant of this tank rather than darts. Its already been established that darts need more floor space than what you are going to be able to provide in suck a small tank.
> 
> Honesly, i enjoy looking at a simple paludarium with fish only with a large shallow pond filled with aquatic and marginal plants. Just my opinion though


I appreciate the opinion. I to think that'd be a pretty setup, though I've do planted aquariums and am onto something newer to me. Definitly set on pdfs. I just won't be doing a betta.


----------



## morphman (May 20, 2011)

catman25 said:


> We could say this about everything I have frogs in 20 g tanks - 55 g tanlks but in my opinion that still isnt alot of space for the frogs ... I think we should hold opinion at bay and offer suggestions to make the idea the best is can be .... Or maybe bring up some prior experiances another member can live off from like with new coco fiber or any substrate the residue is very dark and thick ... added a fish should be after the tank has cycled a few times... peace


Amen to that !!

I have been thinking for quite a while about adding a pond and I have tried a few ways. This might be lengthy but I hope it helps .

I believe that with enough research you can design a tank that will have lots of room for your frogs and a nice little area for your fish that should be an upgrade from his current living conditions. 

- I've tried several of the smaller pumps and while you can find ones with enough head hight I found they clog easily and they require space in the tank. Still they can be pretty useful if you are not looking for any filtation.

- The small turtle canister filters have a cool self priming feature but again only practical if it's sitting level with the tank as they have a small head hight. They do however come with a drip wall accessory. At least the ones I saw.

- I finally reverted to a good canister filter that can filter way more water than I will ever have in the tank. For me the main advantages were, I only needed room for the tubing and it has a strong enough head hight to run a waterfall, dripwall and provide filtration.

If you do go that way run it without media for a while as that would be a waste of media. There will probably be a period where your substrates and wood will release alot of tannins in the water and I found the best way to get rid of it is to change your water, let it get dark then keep changing. After when the water clears up a bit I add media to the canister. That along with Leca and carbon should help get your water crystal clear.

Ok that's enough. I hope you find that balance. I know I'm still looking  

Cheers


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

I'm going back and forth as to whether or not I'm going to even do a water feature. As much as I'd like one, I may do my first tank sans water feature and do one on my next tank. Or I may do a contained pond. I'm not quite sure at the moment. I'm just playing around with ideas. I'll let everyone know when I do decide what I'm doing.


----------



## kevdog322 (Jul 27, 2011)

So i'm pretty new to everything except that i have kept a 55 gal aquarium for 15 years, and have had pacman frog, african clawed frog, and beta experience. My question (maybe because i'm new) is that if he is doing a 55gal tank even if half was water isn't that still enough for a few PDFs? It seems that many people in the forum including breeders use 20 or less gal tanks as long at there are only a few frogs in them. So yes more space is better but it still seems as though there would be adequate space with a small pond feature. Also has anyone had any experience with water features where frogs have drowned? there seems to be a lot conflicting resources out there. 

I love that we can get advice from each other's experiences!

I have also heard (though not sure how true) that beta's don't thrive as well in larger tanks and prefer the safety of a smaller (not tiny) area of water. just wondering if anyone else has heard that.


----------



## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Would love to see pictures if any one does a tank like this


----------



## manicmatt (May 29, 2011)

I'm actually working with a 29g tank. I am doing a water feature though I doubt I'll be putting any fish in it. It's going to be quite small, about six inches along the left side. I almost opted out of a water feature all together, but after more research I've found that Leucs prefer it in their environment. I'd love to eventually do a 55g swamp tank, but I figure one thing at a time. I haven't even finished my 29 yet. I've been so busy working two pet shops. Woot. Have fun everyone and again thanks for all the input.


----------



## evilhorde (Aug 28, 2011)

I have a large water feature in my 'tank'. It isn't anything like what you are trying to build, but you might find a good idea in there somewhere. I have around 100 liters of water in the aquarium and most of the space above it is land mass. In the tank I have danios and red chery shrimps. On the land I currently have a baby chorus frog that was unlucky enough to jump on to my shoe yesterday. As soon as he eats up the fruit flies and gnats that have appeared in my tank, I think I am going to turn him loose. I am not quite ready for land animals in there yet. The little beggar was just too cute to ignore. 

Lurking no longer. - Vivarium Forums

It has two streams, one pond, one waterfall, around six square feet of land area, I would guess around 6 cubic feet of dry space, 100 liters of aquarium and three hundred liters of hidden sump which contains a bucket of lava rock (with water flowing through) for the nitrifying bacteria.

Something you could try that is similar to what I have done is to put a small tank insde of your larger tank and allow it to overflow to a small false bottom. The frogs could live around the betta tank instead of above it. If you slightly tilt the fishtank you can have it waterfall off of one side, through the false bottom into some porous substrate (like my loved lava rocks) and pick it up again on the other side of the paludarium. The unseen underground rocks and running water should be all the filter you need. As an added bonus, if the silly frogs jump into the betta water, the overflow current will push them to an edge and gently wash them out of there. Depending of course on how much water current you are creating. (buy an adjustable pump.) If you fill the betta tank from the bottom (using a hose from the top) the tank will keep itself clean.


----------



## evilhorde (Aug 28, 2011)

Incidently, Bettas don't work well in my tank because of the large rocks in the aquarium. The daft fish swim between the rocks, get stuck, and then almost unbelievably, they drown there.


----------

