# Thumbnails....Groups or Pairs?



## Guest (Jan 29, 2006)

I have a few groups of thumbnail species. All seperated into pairs and kept in 5-15 gal verts. After speaking with another PDF breeder today he said that he gets alot more success keeping his thumbnails in groups of five to ten, in slightly larger 20-30 gal tanks. I agree with that method for my vents and ami's, but how about the D. imitator family....imitator, intermedius, lamasi? Mine are always courting and I get eggs and tads once in a while. I want to beef up my production and I wanted some input from other breeders. Am I on the right track keeping them in pairs, or should I put them into groups?


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Yes, I am also interested in this. Can larger groups of thumbs be maintained using the thumbs that are normally kept in pairs? What about pums, does anyone keep trios?

Luke


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

All of those frogs you listed fall into the same group. When I've seen it refferenced it's been called the Quinquevittatus Group because of the frogs having five toes. 

I think the group conisits of:

Dendrobates lamasi
Dendrobates imitator
Dendrobates intermedius
Dendrobates ventrimaculatus
Dendrobates amazonicus 
Dendrobates variabilis
Dendrobates fantasticus
Dendrobates quinquevittatus
Dendrobates reticulatus

That's going by the way Black Jungle groups their frogs on their list and what I remember from when I was in the hobby last.



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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

*pairs or groups*

I think pairs are the best, most effective way to breed most thumbs and pumilio. Although, I have succesfully bred many different types of pdf's in group settings, I think it is ultimately more stressfull and dangerous for the frogs and requires much more planning, maintenence, and vigilance on the part of the breeder. 

I have a group of 7 man creek pumilio in a 45 gal hex, that have produced 6 froglets over the course of 18+ months. I think that if I would have kept these pumilio in pairs I would have easily produced at least double that number of froglets. To compensate for the crowding, I have planted the tank heavily, including 9 bromeliads and 10-12 film containers. These frogs get a lot of attention, food, and monitoring.

I have also successfully bred vents in large groups, but I have never had success with breeding imitators in groups. I have also tried breeding fants, intermedius, and castis in groups with little success. The panguanna lamasi I have successfully bred in groups, but have no experience with the green leg or nominant lamasi. However, from what I have heard all lamasi can be successfully bred in groups. 

Ultimately, I think that any of the thumbs and pumilio can be successfully bred in group settings but they will require more care, food, space, and breeding locations. The most successful breeders I know, will tell you that the most effective and efficicient way to breed most thumbs and pumilio is in pairs. If you have enough money and space you could consider building a greenhouse setup like one premier breeder has for his darklands pumilio project. This method is probably better left to the experts and those with a bigger budget and a lot of space. 

One of the best things I've been told about keeping and breeding pdf's is there is no one right way. A lot of the time different things will work for different people. Frogs seem to have varying personalities just like people, sometimes it only takes one jackass to ruin everyone else's fun.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Those are some really interesting observations, and actually opposite of personal experience and what I've heard from some others. While I do admit that for max # of offspring from pumilio, if that is your goal, that pairs are probibly best, but I don't think thats true for all the thumbs, especially the imi group.

With dart frogs it seems that pairs (1.1) or groups (5+) are the two camps. Trios and quads may work in a couple cases and for certain species and morphs, but are more exceptions than rules. With trios especially I've seen the non-dominant member (odd one out) often doesn't do very well, or the group doesn't produce as well as a pair (tho there are a significant number of trios that don't know this and not only get along dandy, but breed like rabbits). 3 is a rather evil number with frog populations.

In groups of 5+ there is just as much competition, but more animals to take it out on. This competetion, like in some fish, seems to actually work to the benefit of the group - which is why some groups outcompete an equal number of sexed pairs when it comes to froglets. I think the set up of the tank, and especially the sex ratios help a lot. You can't just toss 5 random unsexed animals into an "appropriate" sized tank and get the same results every time. I also think the competition and choice of mates helps, and their parental care is better (if they don't do it, anothe frog will!).

I've gotten excellent production from imitator and intermedius in group settings (very male heavy). Now this is comparing how many froglets they raised up compared to how many froglets an equal number of pairs would have raised up - not how many eggs were pulled that I raised. Honestly I have very bad luck finding their eggs, unless they lay them in a very obvious spot. And I rarely pull there eggs when they find them even if I do manage to see them, its just too cool to have them do their mom and pop jobs, and I think it keeps the animals from over breeding (not trying to replace eggs that I stole from them like their instincts tell them to).


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Corey, I agree with a lot of what you said. First, I want to preface this whole reply with different things work for different people. I also want to say that I am not good at finding imitator or intermedius eggs either  

I think that, in most cases either 1.1 or groups of 5+ is the way to go. I also have found that groups of 3-4 are typically not successful and that sex ratio is crucial. But, in my earlier reply I did say that the most effective way is to use pairs. Maybe what I should have said is it is probably a bit easier for the breeder and possibly more efficient and more cost effective. This all depends on your budget and the amount of room you have available. 

It is difficult to discuss the finer points you're bringing up without discussing specific frogs and in my earlier reply I was trying to keep it fairly general. Although, I will say that I have heard the intermedius do breed well in groups, maybe I was not patient enough or had poor ratios, my experience with breeding larger groups of imitators and intermeidus was at least two years ago, and dendroboard wasn't around then :lol: . 

Do you think that most of the larger, more succesful breeders breed these thumbs in pairs or large groups? If so, what size groups do you think and what size are the enclosures?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

With a family thats over 200 species, and a good percentage of the colorful ones in the hobby (anyone done a count lately?) its incredibly hard to generalize these guys - so I try not to.

I would probibly say pairs from what I've heard from breeders. Like I said in my post - I got my froglets out of a group than a pair, comparing numbers on if I let the parents raise them. If you are a breeder, going for the max number of froglets you can get, you don't want a thumbnail to raise up its own tads - this produces significantly less eggs as the parents care for the eggs, and transfer tads before they would lay more eggs (might even wait til the current tads are almost out of the water, but I've heard varying times on when parents raising tads lay their next batch of eggs - assuming they are found.

With any of the PDFs, pulling the eggs before tads are transported is like having a predator take the eggs - they need to be replaced as soon as possible - let the animals transfer their own tads they'd produce less eggs. More eggs pulled means more tadpoles mean more froglets for the breeder. Yay! Happy breeder. In a group I could honestly say its a whole lot harder to find eggs to steal than a pair in a 10 or 18 vert. 

Tho I've heard some "big name" breeders with pumilio groups that seem to do dandy - but these were rather large tanks as well. Territory is key for these guys, and I think the territorial needs for morphs differ. Odd how you could have something like a 55 gal with 5+ basti pumilio that are breeding, but have more than a pair of blue jeans in a 100 gallon tank and you have trouble? Bastis in the wild are thick as theives in concentration - BJs from my experience were much less dense - territories I'd guess that were larger than a 100 gallon. Hmmm... interesting (and you can't even generalize about the SPECIES on that one).

Now I can't say if tinc group frogs breed better in groups - that really varies. Galacs, auratus, and truncs to a degree do pretty well in groups. Tincs, and relatives like azureus, a trio or quad can end up a war zone with the wrong sex ratio. Yet you get a 10+ group of them together in a big tank, sure they tussle and you've got the occassional smackdown, but there's breeding too. Now I can't say if its more or less than pairs, I doubt its more, but there is breeding, so it works (but again, you probibly want to watch the sex ratio, even to male heavy). I've heard azureus females can be a bit domineering over some males ("You're not my type and I'm twice your size" deal, which is uncommon, but happens) - bad news if you've got a single male. In a group situation the female would get to pick her male, so the male that she doesn't like gets ignored as her attentions are elsewhere.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I suppose, to sum all this up, it really depends on the species, and keeper. Space, gender ratios, and density of plants all combine to determine how successful the breeding will go with each individual species. But... woo... those were alot of LOOOONG replies.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Josh, when do I ever make short replies, when I can make the long, all encompassing, just short of a book posts I'm known for?

So much information.... must... spit it out... before it takes over.... by taking seemingly simple question and making it complex....

Who am I kidding. Most questions are complex when you're trying to be general about a group I just can't be general about. That's why the beginner/advanced sections bug me.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2006)

I keep my pumilio and ventrimaculatus by pairs...


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2006)

*Thanks All*

Thanks to all that commented. For now I am going to keep them in pairs. Except for the lamasi and vents. We'll try them out and see.


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## mnchartier (May 9, 2005)

Corey.

I am actually glad you post the way that you do I have been in the hobby for a little over a year now and I have learned a lot just by reading your posts along with some other. You give alot of information and explinations. I am looking at getting vents as my first thumbs and I was looking into whether I should get enough for a small group or just a pair. And from reading this post I am set at getting a group.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Thank you  I'm into not just giving a quick answer, but making sure you guys know why I give that answer (or why I can't give a simple answer). Makes for long responses, but I hope after reading it you have a better understanding of the animals under your care. The more you know, the better you know your animals, and the better you can care for them. Happy froggies and happy people!


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

ok, so i have a trio of intermedius in a 10 vert, but i am building 4 18 highs right now. I am probably gonna put the trio in the 18 high, and i am wondering if it would be ok to put in another intermedius, for a group of four in the 18. I dont know there sexes yet, but i think i would try to make the sex ration 3.1, is this good?


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Twisner, I would watch carefully and make sure that none of the males are getting bullied. Personally, I would probably just keep it a trio. I don't think there will be much of a benefit from an additional male, but that is just my opinion. If you decide to go with four, make sure there is plenty of food, hiding space, and be vigilent.


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## Reptiledan (Nov 23, 2004)

*Thumbs*

This is kind of a intresting topic because what works for one guy does not always work for another. 
I have been testing a few different breeding stratagies for breeding Imitators. First I tried a quad setup with 1 male and 3 females. This seemed to work very well with large egg production and a constant supply of tads. So this lead me to believe more was better and I added 10 additional Imis to the mix. With 14 Imitators in the tank egg production stopped...A few weeks later I removed 5 skinny Imitators and continued to monitor the rest. With 9 in the tank egg production was sporadic at best. It was not until the tank was trimmed down top 5 Imitators then egg production returned to normal. I know keep a 2.3 ratio and seem to have consistant production. This project was accomplished in a 30 gallon tall. 
I have also tried breeding pairs and trios in a a 10 gallon with sporadic results, this also seems to hold true for Intermedius. 
I am keeping my Almirante in a 10 gallon with a 1.3 sex ratio and they seem to be producing very well. 
Please keep in mind that what works for Peter might not work for Paul. 
Best of Luck Dan


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

Dan, I have a similar situation with my imitator. I have three females in one viv, and a pair in another...if I put all five together would that work out? Do all the females lay for just the one male? The three females together are not fighting so far. I'm sure that would change with the addition of a male...
I'm content with things as they are though, and the pair has just started laying once a week it seems. 

Carlos


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## Reptiledan (Nov 23, 2004)

*Thumbs*

I suppose that you could always try putting them all together but if you have a good thing going why would you change.. After mixing all my Imis up the first time it took me almost a year to get egg production going at a steady rate. 
Just yeaterday all five of my Imis were in 1 film canaster, they left eggs but im not sure which ones produced them, also the males were calling and wrestling for at least an two hours before they all retreated into the egg laying sight. It seemed as if the males doing their thing caused the females to get horny.. Not for sure but thats how it looked.. I wish I spoke frog so I could find out for sure..


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

You should see if the lady who speaks bat can help you decipher the frog language code. link



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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

just got my first thumbs! 6 vents. i just got them setteled in their new heavely planted tank. there are 3 broms among other plants and some film canisters along with a small glass bowl filled with water. ive read vents like to use the film canisters but should they be on their side or straight up? anyone have any info on how long they take to breed, ive been told as young as 3-4 months! any tips on breeding would be greatly apreciated, in a group setting of course. not tring to hijack this thread just add to it. thanks josh


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