# Glenn's at it again / new pumilio shipment



## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Anybody else receive an email from Glenn about the CITES paperwork being cleared up and he's bringing in another shipment of pumilio (only now more expensive)??? What's to keep F&W from grabbing them again?


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

LET THE GAMES BEGIN


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I think there is a point you have to say, "Why?" If there is any risk of them being caught up or stopped by F & W, they should not be brought in. 

Melis






rompida said:


> Anybody else receive an email from Glenn about the CITES paperwork being cleared up and he's bringing in another shipment of pumilio (only now more expensive)??? What's to keep F&W from grabbing them again?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I agree with Melissa. I hope if they do get shipped that they do make it to the hands of the hobbiests, so breeding projects can be set up. Everyone that does get any (if they aren't taken by USF&W) should work together to make breeding pairs, and work towards making a stable captive breeding group.


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

At those retarded prices, I won't be able to justify a pair :shock:


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*the price list...*

Can someone post a price list or pm it to me. I want a good shock to my system!!!




hicksonj said:


> At those retarded prices, I won't be able to justify a pair :shock:


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Me too please, I would like to see this.

Thanks!


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

*No Way Jose!*

WHAT!!! PUMILIOS ARE AVAILABLE AGAIN FROM GLENN NOVOTNY???!!! I will never buy anything as long as I live from Glenn Nonotny of Seaside Reptiles in Florida ever again! Not even if he has some captive bred Dendrobates Lehmanni available for sale for a $1!!! :evil:


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: No Way Jose!*

I was wondering how long this would take.



davejoyce said:


> WHAT!!! PUMILIOS ARE AVAILABLE AGAIN FROM GLENN NOVOTNY???!!! I will never buy anything as long as I live from Glenn Nonotny of Seaside Reptiles in Florida ever again! Not even if he has some captive bred Dendrobates Lehmanni available for sale for a $1!!! :evil:


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: No Way Jose!*

lol...every village needs one :wink: 



mindcrash said:


> I was wondering how long this would take.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

*Re: No Way Jose!*



melissa68 said:


> lol...every village needs one :wink:
> 
> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!


What?? :?


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

*Re: No Way Jose!*



Wildtymes said:


> melissa68 said:
> 
> 
> > lol...every village needs one :wink:
> ...



same here, (this is the kind of thing you miss with an "ignore" button :lol:


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## Guest (May 24, 2004)

Wow, Melissa now that was funny.
Mark W.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: No Way Jose!*

LOL!



melissa68 said:


> lol...every village needs one :wink:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## TonyT (Feb 16, 2004)

I would like to see the price list as well. Anyone who would send it to me I thanks you in advance.

TonyT


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Lets just say WAY too much!


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## MarkJ (Feb 15, 2004)

ha and I thought the old prices were too much! These must be super high!


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## Enavas (May 21, 2004)

Can someone just post the price list on here so that everyone can see it? You guys have curious too!!!


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

Just to put it simply, Glenn is expecting $25-$50 more per frog than previously advertised.


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## Guest (May 25, 2004)

*hey, glenn's at it again*

i am way too busy to answer each and every one of you on this pumilo thing, but there is one thing i wish to clear up. first of all, when a country is closed by CITIES, there is nothing anyone can do about a pending import/export. i wish i was so important, that F&W would single me out!! for those of you who do not understand the importation/exportation rules, countries that import/export into other countries must comply with certain paperwork in order to send their goods to these countries. CITIES, located in Geneva, Switzerland, controls this compliance between countries. Panama and 5 other countries were not in compliance with CITIES, not just for this shipment, but since last November and CITIES decided to force their hands and push them to comply. the fact that my shipment from panama was held by F&W didnt mean that it was GLENN who was not in compliance. Panama has now met the requirements of CITIES and is able to export again. for those frog enthusiasts who are truly interested in expanding their collections to include these rare and beautiful frogs, i sincerely hope that you are able to obtain them. i wish you all good luck in your ventures


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## Guest (May 25, 2004)

furizzl said:


> > ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
> 
> 
> What?? :?


Rolling On The Floor Laughing My A$$ Off! Like LOL only MUCH FUNNIER :wink:


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Thanks Glenn, for clearing this up a bit, for me it is always nice to hear some explanations from the source.

Anyway you could post the price list in the classifieds section?


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## Guest (May 25, 2004)

just a thought, but if the CITES stuff is cleared up, wont that mean that more frequent shipents from panama should be expected? on that thread of logic, shouldn't the price have dropped rather than increased? thats just plain economics 101.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Yes...*

Yes, I think you are right, but I think there are more expenses with this shipment to cover. I know, another assumption - but it would make sense. 

Like I have said all along, I will be waiting until future shipments come in. 



drunknmunky said:


> just a thought, but if the CITES stuff is cleared up, wont that mean that more frequent shipents from panama should be expected? on that thread of logic, shouldn't the price have dropped rather than increased? thats just plain economics 101.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Right now Glenn is the only one who will have the wild caught pumilio availible. There is a very large demand for them so he can charge whatever he wants and they will still sell out. If other dealers start to import pumilio and lower their price to compete with Glenn then that's when the prices will drop.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Regardless, I think $250 for a single pumilio is ridiculuous. Its not a histo - its a pumilio. But hey, someone will buy it. Here's my problem with it.... what's to keep these pumilio from coming in looking like the auratus that came in a couple years ago from Panama? They were missing eyes, toes, and many had a bacterial infection that was similar to menangitis. These were all "farm raised" also.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

I just spoke with Glenn and the price for the frogs I had ordered remained the same. They are the same cost as Patrick's ( at least for the Bastimentos morph ). 

Rob

Edit: Dr. Frye is not confirmed to go down.


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## joshua_delancey69 (Mar 1, 2004)

*why*

YOu know Glenn is doing the wrong thing by posting frogs he does not have in hand for sale. But look at the people sending him money before the frogs arrive. So both are at fault. Just my opinion but dont put your foot in the door until your sure you got the right house. Possible the only reason he is putting them up for sale before they get here is to no house them long. Being WC means they are likely to die in a couple of days or couple of weeks so the longer he holds on them the better the chance of him losing one is. So he sales them early to ship them out the day he gets them. Once they get the the buyer alive then he is off the hook because he only guarntees live arrival. It s a mess that should be left alone until the frogs actually get to his shop or store. then if you want to buy the frog go for it. 

But if you are willing to put your money out there and wait, then its your fault as much as the sellers if the frogs dont make it. There are sircumstances in importing stuff like this that no one can control. 

well just my thoughts not directed for anyone just seeing who agrees


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

As noted in the last time this came up, do not reserve/buy these frogs if you do not have the extra money and do not know the risks. This is a risk that some people are willing to take to get some new bloodlines and rarer morphs into the US. Glenn did mention that he is holding onto the frogs for at least 3 days to treat them, so hopefully that will make some difference in their survival rate.

Rob


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

> I just spoke with Glenn and the price for the frogs I had ordered remained the same. They are the same cost as Patrick's ( at least for the Bastimentos morph ).


But one last for 8 years and the other last for...?? 

SB


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

By me reserving these frogs I am acknowledging the risks involved. They might all die, they might all live.

Rob


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

*pumilio*

I do understand that some of you have had problems with Glenn in the past and we should all thank you for sharing this information. It is great when other froggers give us a heads up, especially when we are investing so much money.

Having said that, I also deal with a company in Florida that I will not name (Most people, who have had frogs for a while, know who I am talking about). They have received nothing short of a bashing form the frog community for many years now. I happen to know these guys personally and while I am not trying to discredit the validity of those complaints, I must say that I have received nothing but healthy, well acclimated frogs from them. 

We must always remember that not every frog will thrive, CB or WC. It is a huge risk anytime you send money to someone. All we can do is hope for the best. 

While no one would disagree that it is a very high price to pay for a frog, if there are those of us willing to pay it then whose to say it is to much. It’s the law of supply and demand. For those of whose frogs do make it, the return on the investment could be huge.

To be honest, I have never gotten in WC frogs that were inspected and treated by a vet. I think that this is a huge advantage and hopefully it will result in a greater success ratio.

Good luck to everyone.

-Blake


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

The prices being charged are a direct result of the demand for the animals, bottom line. One reason the demand is so high is that many people don't want to wait the 2 to 3 years it will probably take before CB animals are available to the "general public". In addition to the time it will take for the animals to get acclimated, breeding and producing offspring, most of the breeders who get these animals will likely keep the initial offspring as holdbacks for their own breeding programs or for trade with other breeders. When they do start offering animals you can expect very long wait lists. Just look how long it took bastimentos to become even somewhat "widely" available. Even now if you want them, chances are you still have to get on a waiting list. There is a risk that the animals will come in diseased, etc. and it is certain that a percentage will die relatively quickly. However I have first hand knowledge of WC pumilio surviving over 15 years after being brought into the country so you never really know.


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## Guest (May 26, 2004)

*re: glenns at it again*

well, i guess i wasnt going to do this, but here goes anyway. i feel the strong need to put everyone on the same page about me and the pumilio. i am in no way defending myself or my business practices but back when citronellas and new rivers,atlantis, patrichas etc were selling for $250 a piece, i was buying them. they would come 20+ to a tank, were usually full of parasites, and not ONCE did an importer or breeder medically treat or house then them correctly. , i am hoping to set a new trend from this point on. we are keeping each pumillo in seperate tanks have been consulting dr frye and have meds on hand to do what it takes to put out a first class shipment of rare frogs i am hoping that others follow suit, for all herpers sake(or should i say for the sake of the frogs, etc.) . once an animal is purchased from me, i expect the purchaser to continue any needed treatment from that point on. i never purchased a dog that i didnt have to worm, give flea treatments to regularly, heartworm meds, and so forth. it is no different with the animals i sell. its easy to blame the seller, but it is about time buyers take some responsibility for their own actions as well.I have been told bye dr frye that over 90 % of the breeders have parasites (right now). 
i am selling the pumilio at a fair price, considering what i am paying and have invested in them and their health. as for the pumillo market coming from panama, only 400 will be imported into the US this year from panama and i have the exclusive on them so far those of you who really want them, i wish you all the best in obtaining them. we are custom tayloring the order to the exact needs of our clients. thus the need to pre sell the 160 of the 200 . forty will be held for back up to make sure every one gets what they ordered. the starting of a new trend in frog import care is the most important issue here seriously. hope this settles some of the curiosities expressed. glenn


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## Guest (May 26, 2004)

the only reason why they are so expensive as he state in the ad that appears on kingsnake is because he has the entire quota for the year, so he can set the price. Too rich for me though.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: re: glenns at it again*

Some importers already do... so follow *their* trend.

s


glenn novotny said:


> ... i am hoping to set a new trend from this point on. we are keeping each pumillo in seperate tanks have been consulting dr frye and have meds on hand to do what it takes to put out a first class shipment of rare frogs i am hoping that others follow suit, for all herpers sake(or should i say for the sake of the frogs, etc.)


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

Just interested in seeing if anyone has heard anything about the shipment coming in?

ADAM


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Notice its not glenn at fault for the initial health of the animal. Its the people running the farm and doing to exporting. He is not the one shipping them and ii am sure thats where the majority of the problems happen.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Anyone hear anything about this shipment? it was due to arrive today.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

The 4th.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

Thats right, just getting ahead of myself.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2004)

I apologize for my earlier post. It was unfair to Glenn. I know he is trying to make this work. I hope this all works out for everyone!!!


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Anthony , I hate to point fingers , but you come on here and bash Glenn that is all fine. Where I personally have a problem is when you state that he is in it just for the money . I along with others here in the Seattle area have sold you fantastic frogs that we raised and cared for for months and sometimes years only to turn around and see you post them for sale hours and or weeks later !! Mind you at a profit and an inflated price than you paid ! Not only myself but quite a few of us are quite tired of your so called expert opinions , weren't you the one that cane to my home and thought that red glact were bule jeans pumilio !! This was only 6 months ago !! Get your ethics in check buddy and next time that you point a bitter finger look into the mirror and swallow and get honest w/ yourself. I wish you the best of luck in your frogging endevors .I just hope that you start enjoying the beautiful frogs that you aquire hold onto them for longer than profitable instead of looking for the newest and rarest frog that you can find. The people that know you here believe that you are in frogging only for the money , that is how you have come off . Check your self we Have . By the way this is my first post here I was just a little peved . D


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## MarkJ (Feb 15, 2004)

The guy that got me into frogs bought 2 blue jeans from the shipment of 96, he never treated them and they lived until this past summer until his cat attacked the terrarium they were in and they escaped. So there are 2 of them


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

Darren Meyer said:


> Anthony , I hate to point fingers , but you come on here and bash Glenn that is all fine. Where I personally have a problem is when you state that he is in it just for the money . I along with others here in the Seattle area have sold you fantastic frogs that we raised and cared for for months and sometimes years only to turn around and see you post them for sale hours and or weeks later !! Mind you at a profit and an inflated price than you paid ! Not only myself but quite a few of us are quite tired of your so called expert opinions , weren't you the one that cane to my home and thought that red glact were bule jeans pumilio !! This was only 6 months ago !! Get your ethics in check buddy and next time that you point a bitter finger look into the mirror and swallow and get honest w/ yourself. I wish you the best of luck in your frogging endevors .I just hope that you start enjoying the beautiful frogs that you aquire hold onto them for longer than profitable instead of looking for the newest and rarest frog that you can find. The people that know you here believe that you are in frogging only for the money , that is how you have come off . Check your self we Have . By the way this is my first post here I was just a little peved . D


Darren,

You have no clue what I have bought and sold. Find me one person who has bought frogs of yours that you have sold me. Would you like to come over and see your Azureus trio? The Galacs and Leucs you sold me I had kept for several months and they didn't do anything so I gave them to my buddy at the SAME price that you sold them to me for to see if he could get them going. 

Yes, making money at frogs is fun but it's about more than that. Everyone on here wants to sell their frogs to have available funds to better their collection and to get more frogs out into the hobby. Also Darren, speak for yourself man, don't tell me what everyone else is saying, that's not fair. If I come off a certain way, I apologize to you and everyone else here on the board. I just want to better my collection and sell my excess frogs, is that illegal? Besides, what the heck is wrong with finding the rarest frog out there? Poll 100 people and all of them would love to have rare frogs. I'm just trying to get the frogs I have out into the hobby. I have removed the frogs I am working with from my signature. Now no one can think that I am just collecting rare frogs and get the wrong ideas about me.....it'll be between us :wink: 

What is this talk about my so called 'expert opinion?' Name one sentence I posted that was inaccurate and I will gladly change it. Am I giving people false information? I posted about the farm raised frogs, reticulatus tank size, and I posted about Glen, those are the ONLY posts I have made in which I share knowledge. I have had a bunch of people agree with me on both the farm raised issue and Glen so if that brings up some agression that sounds like a personal problem. No, I absolutely don't want to sound like a 'know it all' but when I know some facts about a certain something others might not know then what's wrong with informing them? I'm on here almost every day learning something new from froggers. All the info I pass down comes from learning from those who know more than me. But when Glen rips me off I want to share my experience because the last thing I want is for him to rip someone else off. 

Yes, I have purchased frogs, got them to breed a few times, and sold the original breeding pair.....Is that a crime or unethical? Does that mean I don't care about the frogs' health or well being? Does that mean I am money hungry? It would seem to me that it's a smart move. I get some froglets from a breeding pair, pass that pair on, and someone else gets a breeding pair AND froglets. I sell diamonds, frog money isn't that big of an issue. If I'm all about the money, go ask Ken Davenport how much I offered to sell him bri-bri froglets for. I believe I asked $100 which is 50% below market value. 

If you want to argue, we can argue but get your facts straight. Darren, I like you but you did not need to come across this way and attack me like this. IT's completely ridiculous. We are all just trying to get along in this hobby. If you really think that I am in this for the money then I am doing something wrong. Please, let me know what is making you feel like that and I will work on it!!! I definitely don't want local (or any) froggers with ill feelings.


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

People this is getting lame. 

If you want to argue, do it in PM. If you want to post valid and non agressive vendor feedback, there is a forum for that. 

Thanks in advance for not cluttering the board with this crap.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

bri bri froglets go for $200?!


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

Can't we all get along?


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

And Mark Pepper thinks where competitive here in American ..what would ever give him that idea :lol: 
Brian Ferriera Jr
Plympton, Ma


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*drunknmunky*

Hey drunknmunky, is that Bongo the monkey by Ty Beanie babies by the way?

Whose up for a game of cards?


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

why yes it is =) glad someone recognized him!


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2004)

Bongo's lookin' a bit tipsy.... 8)


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## Guest (Jun 5, 2004)

yes, hence "drunkn-munky"


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Isn't that a clothing line?....goth/punk clothing line...?


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

Still no news yet on the shipment?
ADAM


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2004)

*Of Course*

It is another fraud by the infamous scam artist Glenn Novotny! What else can you expect??? Don't expect the pumilio to arrive, because IT WON"T!!!



addam4208283 said:


> Still no news yet on the shipment?
> ADAM


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

*Re: Of Course*



davejoyce said:


> It is another fraud by the infamous scam artist Glenn Novotny! What else can you expect??? Don't expect the pumilio to arrive, because IT WON"T!!!


Isn't calling someone an "infamous scam artist" some kind of violation of the user agreement that can get davejoyce the boot?

Just wondering.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I agree with mindcrash and also I think his statement can lead to legal issues for slander since this a public post!
Later and Happy frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

It looks like the date for this shipment to arrive is the 9th now, per Glenn's ad on kingsnake.


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

I got a call from Glenn and they should be in on the 9th. He will be holding them until the Tuesday or Wednesday of the following week before shipping. I think that this will give him a reasonable time to get all of the fecals done and start the necessary treatments. 

I think that everyone who is getting frogs from this shipment should be prepared for a moderate to heavy parasitic load in their frogs. Assuming that they are not overly stressed out and in pretty good health, this will hopefully not be a major problem. Most of us know that it can be tricky trying to get WC pumilio acclimated while taking the proper quarantine procedures, but it is absolutely necessary. 

If there are any are any newbies out there that are getting some of these frogs I think that it might be wise for you to hook up with some of the more experienced keepers to get some advice. It is always good to have someone that you cal call if something goes wrong or if you need some help. 

Whatever your stance on Glenn or this shipment is, you must agree that it is important for some of us to keep and breed these frogs. I think that there comes a time when we should put aside our differences and work together for the betterment of our community as a whole.

Anyway, that’s my two cents. Good luck to everyone.

-Blake


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*beautiful*



> Whatever your stance on Glenn or this shipment is, you must agree that it is important for some of us to keep and breed these frogs. I think that there comes a time when we should put aside our differences and work together for the betterment of our community as a whole.


*SNIFF  That was beautiful!


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I think Blake's statement is 100% valid, and not sappy or anything... although it seems like you were just joking so no big deal. But I would like to back up his statement and go on to say a couple things about the incoming frogs and the hobby. Like I stated in my post earlier in this thread; I think everyone should work together to make breeding pairs, and work towards making a *stable* captive breeding population of these new frogs. Otherwise they will come in very fast, and fade out just as fast... and I don't think this would help the hobby at all. Hopefully the people who are getting these frogs know what they are doing, and also have some idea of what morphs other people are getting. I say this cause I think it would be great if everyone getting the same morphs could pool them together to work on getting pairs and CB young. If I was getting some, I would have gotten a couple people (hopefully local) to go for the same morph(s) as well, that way we would increase our chances of getting pairs. This would increase the chances of getting CB young, which would be great for the hobby and for us as well (of course lol). Just some things that crossed my mind when I was thinking about getting some, and since then.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

*beautiful again*

Seriously though, it was an awesome statment made by you and Bwood. Its true, if we want to preserve these animals in captivity, we got to make a selfless agreement for the benefit of the herp community to breed them. That is the way I strongly feel, and even more so, with the mantellas coming in. Sooner or later, Mantellas will probably be off limits from Madagascar, but even worse, the pressures on M. aurantiaca could drive them over the edge, and constant collecting just makes things worse. I am desperately looking for Mantella betsileo in order to captive breed these overlooked, but very beautiful animals so they will become available to others before they disappear out of the trade. I hope to work with other mantellas too, but it may be a while until I have the correct enclosure, as many mantellas require cooler conditions (M. betsileo prefers warm conditions) I'm so happy that Phyllomedusa bicolor is being sold as pairs, and its awesome too that we've had good success with cb red eyed treefrogs, etc. Hopefully we see some rarer, new morphs of E. tricolor come in some day. There are a lot of them.

Rain


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## dcameron (Jun 9, 2004)

Anyone have any news on the shipment as of today (6/9)? It was my understanding it was to arrive today, but now I see the 6/15 as the date that the auratus are arriving. Any thoughts.


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2004)

WOW, another Iowan with dartfrogs, very cool!!!!


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

It is to my understanding that Mantella betsilio only live about 2-3 years and to increase their CB population, you'd have to constantly breed them, and by doing so, make so many that you'd have to give them away. I believe Xtreme Reptiles sells betsilio, if you order form them, you may ask them to ship their frogs on paper towels instead of moss, a friend of mine (Frank Williams) has had a few problems with them shipping thme with the moss, something about bloating, not quite sure. Mantella aurantiaca are being bred very well right now and haven't been imported in a while. I'm going to be working with some M. laevigata, and may get some CB crocea form a friend. M. baroni needs soem attention, because they are so hard to ID. The Phyllomedusa bicolor that are being imported have been coming in this time of year for years before. They are crap, terrible nose rubs, loaded with parasites, stressed, etc. The ones of kingsnake being sold for $50 by danielle d were absolutely horrible. Did you see the pics? Their noses were raw. Just because they are sold in pairs, does not mean they will breed, they do breed better in reverse trios anyways, so I am told from a few others. I believe that the success to this species is the barometric pressure changes, as with some other species. Sandy Mascarino had hers breed, but the babies were terribly expensive. Red-eyes have been bred for a long time and are no lnoger an issue, yet some people (not naming) still import them along with another common species (dart frog) in order to get a "desired species" I think you know what I'm talking about.


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## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Hi Derek,

im curious where you heard they only live 2-3 years. it seems awfully short compared to what I've expereince with other mantellas. Im not trying to dispute your facts just curious and want to know more. 

take it easy,
mark


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

From a friend who kept them, or didn't keep them. This was his reasoning, so I do not have facts to back this up, but he does keep many mantellas and would know. Do you keep them? I know you have some other species, but not sure aobut betsilio..? I don't know of anyone who keeps betsilio anyways?


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2004)

I know a guy who used to keep them and breed them. I'm pretty sure they're longer lived than that. 
j


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

*WELL*

Well yesterday was the day these suckers were supposed to come in. Any new? Do you think Glenn should get some pics posted so we can see these guys? I"m anxious to see what these guys look like.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

dcameron,
How do you know that the shipment of auratus is coming in on the 15th?
Am I missing the add on KSnake.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2004)

Tim,

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=14&de=219753 
-Bill J.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks Bill. Don't know how I missed that.
Has Anyone heard what color varieties of auratus Glenn is expecting to get in. When I talked to him a few weeks ago he said he would know when they arrived.


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## aplatowski (May 6, 2004)

*Glenn's Pumilio*

Just got off the phone with Glenn who now says that the shipment will not arrive in Miami until the 15th (Auratus clue was correct) with final shipments due to be made Monday, June 21. That is the status as of right now. Of course it is still subject to change.


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## dcameron (Jun 9, 2004)

Are these delays causing worry in anyone else? This shipment was going to be difficult enough to acclimate. I realize that it is out of Glenn's hand, but one has to question the conditions these frogs are currently being kept in Panama, whether it be crowded holding tanks or still a "farm setting." I am starting to get some doubts about the chance of success with the group. 

David Cameron


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

This is why I did not buy any. After the first shipment, and now this, sorry too much risk.



dcameron said:


> Are these delays causing worry in anyone else? This shipment was going to be difficult enough to acclimate. I realize that it is out of Glenn's hand, but one has to question the conditions these frogs are currently being kept in Panama, whether it be crowded holding tanks or still a "farm setting." I am starting to get some doubts about the chance of success with the group.
> 
> David Cameron


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Any word on the shipment yet?? The date has come and gone.....


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## addam4208283 (Feb 19, 2004)

Wasn’t yesterday the day the shipment was to come in? Has anyone heard anything?
ADAM


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## aaron b (Jun 3, 2004)

It appears the date has been changed to around June 25, or at least that is what he posted on the kingsnake.com classifieds.

Best Regards,
Aaron Bloch


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## Guest (Jun 22, 2004)

Out of curiosity, where exactly are the frogs through all these delays?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I had hear they are still in panama, and the farm has been delayed in shipping. 



Quijano said:


> Out of curiosity, where exactly are the frogs through all these delays?


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2004)

Once again sounds like a scam of some sort. Delays and glen selling things he doesn't have. You know he makes himself look real bad trying to sell some thing he doesn't have and failing to delivery what he is trying to sell. I felt bad for the frogs the first time. Now i just hope the frogs aren't dragged across sea again to die.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Enavas posted:
Has anyone that placed an order with Glenn at Sea Sides Reptile received their Pumilio(s) yet? Just curious. I think it was due back on the 23rd of June, but haven't heard much about it. Just a simple yes or no answer will do. Thanks!


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

I spoke with glenn yesterday and he said hopefully they are coming in today.


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2004)

> I spoke with glenn yesterday and he said hopefully they are coming in today.


Guys today has come and gone. Just curious abou the status. If u step back its actually sort of a funny situation, but at the same time kind of sad especially for those frogs.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Glenn is brokering an extremely complicated deal to get these frogs into the US. Customs, imports and all other aspects can lead to these delays. As far as we know they are still sitting in the farm until the proper paperwork gets cleared. Everything that we think is based on nothing but speculation, until the facts are in I will keep an open mind.

Rob


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Heard the shipment came in, anyone get their frogs?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Shipment is definatly in... I too would like to hear about the frogs everyone got so please tell us how they look and everything. Better yet, post pics  .


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

I spoke with them today and they are scheduled to ship next week, most of the shipment consisted of blue jeans and the more common morphs, with the rarer ones coming in future shipments. I will definitely post pics once I get my frogs.

Rob


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I was seriously tempted to order, but got in too late for the blue jeans, so decided to hold off until next time and see how it went. I haven't heard much about the last shipment, so am interested in how it turns out.

Hopefully being from a farm raised setting, the pums will be more used to humans being around, and won't be as stressed out as wild caughts.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I still think the price is way out of line, a 4x to 5x markup is crazy.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Anyone find out wich auratus?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

If the frogs are from Panama, they won't be blue jeans. They are more likely the Almirante morph.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2004)

I'm with Kyle on this one. This is the main reason I didn't pick any up this time around. Now that Panama is open as far as CITES, I'm sure that there are others that will get their hands in on this and hopefully the prices will drop down to where they should be for WC. 

-Bill J.


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## jhupp (Feb 27, 2004)

Did anbody go to the Orlando show this weekend? Glenn was supossed to have the auratus and about 50 of the pumilo there. Just curious.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Rmelancon is right, I understand that the red and blue morph from this farm is the Almirante morph . . . which should be a bit larger than your standard Blue Jean, but similarly colored. I have to agree with the other sentiments around here, though--the prices are just a bit outlandish, and the great likelihood of future shipments means that supply should increase and demand lower--especially with rainy season coming up. We'll see how this thing shakes out, but the prices on unseen frogs seems a bit much for my blood.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Only saw two, but i was there early, prolly going back today though to pick up a pygmy leaf chameleon, ill check it out.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Please post your finding, wonder if the shippment did come in...



Ryan said:


> Only saw two, but i was there early, prolly going back today though to pick up a pygmy leaf chameleon, ill check it out.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2004)

*glenns at it again*

to satisfy the curiosity of so many people, i would like to invite you to email us at [email protected] and we would be happy to share photos that we took of our pumilio that we received last week. any questions you might have will be gladly answered. yes, costs seem high to people who are not familiar with importing a load such as this, but if you are interested in costs incurred not including the costs of the frogs, we will be glad to give anyone interested a breakdown. all we are asking in return is that when a statement is made, please make it an informed statement, with facts and accuracy. i am a new member of dendroboard, also glenns partner at seaside, as well as his partner in life, and i am only in the reptile business for 3 years now. but i can tell you that 5 or 6 years ago, glenn paid $500pair for patricias, alanis, new rivers and galoctanatus, etc. at the time, these were new morphs. i guess you invest in what is important to you. we all have our own set of values. i am also happy to say that the next several shipments of pumilio coming into the US are coming to us. we are extremely happy with this shipment we received last week, and we had a ZERO fatality rate on arrival. jo 239-601-2403(all questions and comments welcome)


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

*Re: glenns at it again*



t00_h0t_2002 said:


> we are extremely happy with this shipment we received last week, and we had a ZERO fatality rate on arrival.


Thats surprising.


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: glenns at it again*



t00_h0t_2002 said:


> to satisfy the curiosity of so many people, i would like to invite you to email us at [email protected] and we would be happy to share photos that we took of our pumilio that we received last week. any questions you might have will be gladly answered. yes, costs seem high to people who are not familiar with importing a load such as this, but if you are interested in costs incurred not including the costs of the frogs, we will be glad to give anyone interested a breakdown. all we are asking in return is that when a statement is made, please make it an informed statement, with facts and accuracy. i am a new member of dendroboard, also glenns partner at seaside, as well as his partner in life, and i am only in the reptile business for 3 years now. but i can tell you that 5 or 6 years ago, glenn paid $500pair for patricias, alanis, new rivers and galoctanatus, etc. at the time, these were new morphs. i guess you invest in what is important to you. we all have our own set of values. i am also happy to say that the next several shipments of pumilio coming into the US are coming to us. we are extremely happy with this shipment we received last week, and we had a ZERO fatality rate on arrival. jo 239-601-2403(all questions and comments welcome)


Sending a few pics to whoever emails you is not the best way to prove the health of these frogs. Wait a few weeks and then ill be surprised if you have no deaths on hand. 

Also, Misspelling pumilio on the kingsnake classifieds does not make you look good.

M.N


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

*Re: glenns at it again*



Moe said:


> Also, Misspelling pumilio on the kingsnake classifieds does not make you look good.
> 
> M.N


lol!


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

*Back Biting*

Ok, I've tried so hard to stay out of this, but i'm tired of the back biting. Some who is an entrepeneur is a risk- taker, and this is what seaside is doing. They stuck their neck out to import many shipments of these frogs, the first one consisting of 800 auratus and pumilio combined. I talked to Glenn on sunday and he told me he had two frogs die, which was after receiving them. Out of these two frogs, one was an auratus, and one was a pumilio. We have to understand that every single kind of frog we have so readily available captive-bred had to come in some time like these rare pumilio are now. I don't get the whole auratus deal, but getting acccess to pumilio to be able to have these guys available captive bred down the road is what i'm looking forward to. let's try to keep the negative comments to the minimum, and look for the benefits of these shipments.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: glenns at it again*



t00_h0t_2002 said:


> yes, costs seem high to people who are not familiar with importing a load such as this, but if you are interested in costs incurred not including the costs of the frogs, we will be glad to give anyone interested a breakdown. all we are asking in return is that when a statement is made, please make it an informed statement, with facts and accuracy.


Hey, I don't have a problem with people making money. I also understand that there are hidden costs in importing, as there are in any business. I routinely help businesses that import regulated products as well.

However, I am making an informed statement when I say that I find $250 per frog to be too rich for my blood. Others might not feel that way, but $250 each for WC is not the same as $250 each for a breeding pair of frogs--that's comparing apples and oranges. 

Regardless, the frogs in the pictures you posted in the gallery are very nice looking and display a shipment that was obviously well planned and cared for. So, I wish you all the best.


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: Back Biting*



exclusivehawk said:


> Ok, I've tried so hard to stay out of this, but i'm tired of the back biting. Some who is an entrepeneur is a risk- taker, and this is what seaside is doing. They stuck their neck out to import many shipments of these frogs, the first one consisting of 800 auratus and pumilio combined. I talked to Glenn on sunday and he told me he had two frogs die, which was after receiving them. Out of these two frogs, one was an auratus, and one was a pumilio. We have to understand that every single kind of frog we have so readily available captive-bred had to come in some time like these rare pumilio are now. I don't get the whole auratus deal, but getting acccess to pumilio to be able to have these guys available captive bred down the road is what i'm looking forward to. let's try to keep the negative comments to the minimum, and look for the benefits of these shipments.


All im saying is, its too soon to come to a conclusion and claim that these frogs are perfectly healthy and ready to go. I dont feel im back biting anyone. If you werent directing me, than im sorry.

M.N


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: Back Biting*

I agree with you too Moe, too soon to tell, have to see what some buyers say about them over time, say 3-6 months.



Moe said:


> exclusivehawk said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, I've tried so hard to stay out of this, but i'm tired of the back biting. Some who is an entrepeneur is a risk- taker, and this is what seaside is doing. They stuck their neck out to import many shipments of these frogs, the first one consisting of 800 auratus and pumilio combined. I talked to Glenn on sunday and he told me he had two frogs die, which was after receiving them. Out of these two frogs, one was an auratus, and one was a pumilio. We have to understand that every single kind of frog we have so readily available captive-bred had to come in some time like these rare pumilio are now. I don't get the whole auratus deal, but getting acccess to pumilio to be able to have these guys available captive bred down the road is what i'm looking forward to. let's try to keep the negative comments to the minimum, and look for the benefits of these shipments.
> ...


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

By far, no doubt that not every single frog is going to be in great health, but by what I'm hearing it sounds like it's a decent shipment. And yes, only time will tell how healthy these frogs actually are. I guess we'll find out sooner or later, eh?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Yup and the prices should go down over time, as more people start to bring them in. We will see.



exclusivehawk said:


> By far, no doubt that not every single frog is going to be in great health, but by what I'm hearing it sounds like it's a decent shipment. And yes, only time will tell how healthy these frogs actually are. I guess we'll find out sooner or later, eh?


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

The pictures at least, show that there in good visible shape. IE No missing eyes, no limp limbs. But yet again its only of a few individuals.


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## aplatowski (May 6, 2004)

*At Last*

Bottom line on Glenn and his Pumilio shipment....I received my frogs today...after a two month wait.....they are fat, appear healthy and I will do my best to see them live long and prosper.....


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2004)

Are they eating yet? 

-Bill J.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Mine ate when I took them home at lunch, I had the tank seeded with springtails and they just took off after them.

Rob


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2004)

I am Glad to see that the shipments are coming in and they seem to be doing well! 

Rich


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2004)

this sounds great i hope this brings prices down and more of them come in.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Which morph did you get, Rob (if you don't mind me prying)? I'm glad to hear that they are doing well.


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

lets see some pics!
I think we need to send some of the more prolific picture takers here to
get some pictures of these guys!


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Check out in the other category

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1991

posting more pics in the morning when I can upload them at work, dial up at home isnt cutting it. Hopefully they didnt come out too shakey. I got the "Bastimentos" and the "Almirante."

Rob


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I think your pics look great, and the frogs also appear to be in great shape. I really love that Almirante, put me on your list LOL. Did anyone get any of the blue & greens or white bastis?


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

As far as I know there were only these two morphs in this shipment. The next one is scheduled to be in 2 weeks with the rarer morphs. The shipper didnt want to risk the rarer ones in the first shipment. As we all know 2 weeks could mean 2 months, but from the looks of the current frogs I think it will be worth the wait.

rob


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

Nice to hear they appear healthy.

M.N


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

I think maybe we got to critical about Glenn from Seaside before the shipment. Everything seems to be going great at, at least so far.

Danny


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2004)

*Pumilios are about to flood the market...*

I have heard through a good source that Pumilios are getting ready to flood the market. They have gotten the OK in south america to ship up to 5000 per year. A wholesale reptile supplier in LA already has them listed wholesale for $20 to $25 each. The price to the public is going to come down considerabley very soon. I think someone would be crazy not to wait a bit and see what happens. Anyone hear about this please chime in.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2004)

*pumilio*

Does anyone know the quotas for Panama or Cota Rica,... both Central American countries ? CITES issues those numbers. 5000 seems a bit high as there were issues with bad info coming from Panama to CITES, issues large enough to have CITES close Panama for a bit. Still no hard facts.

Rich


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Rich, You have some of the best Avatar.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

You maybe right Greenstar, lets wait and see what happens. I do still think the prices will come down.



Greenstar said:


> I think maybe we got to critical about Glenn from Seaside before the shipment. Everything seems to be going great at, at least so far.
> 
> Danny


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2004)

Thanks Ryan!


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## Moe (Feb 15, 2004)

I cant wait to see what happens to the auratus shipment. :?

M.N


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Yeah I love rich's avatars, it seems to change everyday.


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2004)

I would be happy if they dropped to 20-25 bucks :twisted: But still doesn't change there WC and could die randomly. I know for a fact other dealers are getting Pumilios from importers. So i bet the prices drop a bit but i don't think 25 bucks. I think the lowest ever would probably be 50-70 but then again i could be wrong. :roll: I know im going to wait and see how every thing unfolds in the next couple months.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

*Re: pumilio*



The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> Does anyone know the quotas for Panama or Cota Rica,... both Central American countries ? CITES issues those numbers. 5000 seems a bit high as there were issues with bad info coming from Panama to CITES, issues large enough to have CITES close Panama for a bit. Still no hard facts.
> 
> Rich


To my understanding, the reason for the CITES Secretariat's recommendation of cessation of trade with Panama regarding any CITES-listed species was not due to bad information from Panama, but a lack of legislative action from Panama to come into compliance with CITES legislative guidelines. So, once legislative action for enforcement of guidelines was reached by the Panamanian government, that simply opened Panama up for trade in CITES-listed species to the extent that the Sectretariat was satisified that export would not adversely affect wild populations.

See http://www.cites.org/eng/notifs/2004/024.pdf for the official notification to the parties (country signatories) of CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species), giving the reason for cessation of trade with Panama re: CITES-species.

I have not seen publication of any quotas for Panama as of yet, but Nicaragua used to have an export quota in the neighborhood of 3,400 to 10,000 per year for pumilio (all reportedly from ranches) before Nicaragua closed off trade in Dendrobatids. So, if the farms in Panama have been able to prove that they can ranch 5,000 per year without a negative impact on the wild population, that is a realistic number--especially given the historical data from Nicaragua.

I would think that your best bet for getting the cold numbers is to contact the USF&W or the CITES administrators.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2004)

Homer, 
I agree with most of your statement. However the the "legislative action for enforcement of guidelines" , by Panama is still, to this day, not stopping native Panamanians from walking around , collecting WCs off of the ground. These "frog farmers" then wait for a contact person from the "real" farm. He/she collects the WCs the natives have found and then sells them as farm raised. This does still happen , today, and is still an issue with CITES and the rest of us, I would hope.

Rich


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Also in farms depending on how the frogs are held, they could be inbreeding and creating hibrids. What if they just through auratus in one cramped enclosure or area, and they breed that way?


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2004)

hallo
the price for pummilio in europ(belgium-germany-netherlands 
is between 80euro en 120euro (depent of species)
so dats in U.S.D. 99 til 144 i think (so fantasize no mor)
gr mast


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> Homer,
> I agree with most of your statement. However the the "legislative action for enforcement of guidelines" , by Panama is still, to this day, not stopping native Panamanians from walking around , collecting WCs off of the ground. These "frog farmers" then wait for a contact person from the "real" farm. He/she collects the WCs the natives have found and then sells them as farm raised. This does still happen , today, and is still an issue with CITES and the rest of us, I would hope.
> 
> Rich


Rich, 

I'm not sure I understand your point. Sure, Panamanian laws ("legislative action") against people fraudulently selling wild caught frogs may not be completely effective, but what options do you recommend? That's like saying, "sure, it's illegal to sell and buy cocaine, but nothing is stopping Americans from doing it."

If you have personal knowledge of illegal activity surrounding these imports or their collection, I would recommend that you contact the authorities. Otherwise, making suggestions that the Panamanian farms exporting these frogs are doing so illegally is irresponsible to the hobby, as it just arouses suspicion and lends credence to those who would have imports stopped altogether. Further, it risks the livelihood of the Panamanians farming the frogs. I have personally heard that the farming facilities are quite an impressive operation, and I would hate to see that risked by ill-founded speculation.

If your point was that Panama has no laws or administrative authorities to stop people from claiming wild caughts are farm raised, that point is misplaced, as those laws are the very "legislative action for enforcement of guidelines" I referenced above. If they are not being adequately enforced, you can bet that the Secretariat will take action like that taken in Nicaragua. You might want to read the link I posted for further details. There are other good informative links at http://www.cites.org , including links to the treaty itself.

All the best,


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2004)

Homer,
You are obviously right. I do not know what I am talking about here.

Rich


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> Homer,
> You are obviously right. I do not know what I am talking about here.
> 
> Rich


No problem, man. That's what a forum is all about . . . people learning from each other. I would just hate to see someone (like an activist) take an uninformed post out of context and run with it to the detriment of the hobby.

Later,


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2004)

Moe,
I am also happy to hear that they appear to be healthy.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

In regards to farm-raised vs. wild caught:

1) The impact of the hobbyists/pet trade on wild populations is most often negligible compared to the impact of deforestation on these same populations. Until these people have a means to make money from the rainforests that doesn't involve their destruction, they will continue to do so. Forests will be cut down way faster than we can "buy frogs into extinction".

2) Getting farm raised animals is the only way we will ever see these animals in the hobby. So let's try not to get them shut down.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> In regards to farm-raised vs. wild caught:
> 
> 1) The impact of the hobbyists/pet trade on wild populations is most often negligible compared to the impact of deforestation on these same populations. Until these people have a means to make money from the rainforests that doesn't involve their destruction, they will continue to do so. Forests will be cut down way faster than we can "buy frogs into extinction".
> 
> 2) Getting farm raised animals is the only way we will ever see these animals in the hobby. So let's try not to get them shut down.


Good points. I think that frog ranching is an ingenious way to preserve rainforests while still providing some income off the land for individuals living there. I am pretty excited to see projects like INIBCO taking place . . . it sounds great for the hobby and the environment. I am hopeful that these operations in Panama will remain viable, and I hope that the Nicaraguan operations will be able to prove their legitimacy to open up trade again.

All the best,


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## JoshinAZ (Jul 4, 2004)

Rich, good point. I hope Panama itself has its own form of visual investigation/monitoring in regards to their "farm raised" dendros.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> In regards to farm-raised vs. wild caught:
> 
> 1) The impact of the hobbyists/pet trade on wild populations is most often negligible compared to the impact of deforestation on these same populations. Until these people have a means to make money from the rainforests that doesn't involve their destruction, they will continue to do so. Forests will be cut down way faster than we can "buy frogs into extinction".
> 
> 2) Getting farm raised animals is the only way we will ever see these animals in the hobby. So let's try not to get them shut down.



Excellent points, Rob!! Hate to see the importations got screwed because people stir up gossip or acting "righteous". 

SB


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