# Not-so-flightless:(



## Lukehartung99 (Aug 27, 2016)

Some of my fruit flies have wings! Wonderful.
What can I do to salvage a culture (if possible) that no longer wanted to be flightless...

And can you start a culture with larva only? If you do not have enough flies to keep the diversity?


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

This happens to me every now and then and it stinks! I haven't found a way to salvage it and typically have to go by fresh fruit flies  but if anyone has a way to salvage it I would love to hear it!


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## xxohmycaptainxx (Dec 10, 2010)

Let the culture get really full of flies and then pop it in the fridge for a couple hours. They'll cool off, get tired, and become unable to fly. After that take them out and dump into a feeding cup, I use old mealworm cups from the petstore to pour my flies into and dust them. 

Dust them like normal but make sure when you swirl them to mix the vitamin powder onto them that you do it kind of extra hard. If your feeding cup has a lid you could even put that on and shake them quite a bit. You just want to do your best to disorientate them. After that, just feed like normal. Frogs should be able to eat them fine before they regain their bearings and are able to fly again.


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

On this topic, I saw a case of new fruit flys at Petco.
They were timberline brand. I opened a culture and they were all jumping out and winged. I mentioned this to the store manager and we checked the whole case, they were all the same. He pulled them from the shelf.
I then called timberline and said what I had seen, the woman told me a winged fruit fly from my house must have gotten in, I mentioned again I didn't buy any.

Not happy with that companies response!


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Frogsarefun said:


> On this topic, I saw a case of new fruit flys at Petco.
> They were timberline brand. I opened a culture and they were all jumping out and winged. I mentioned this to the store manager and we checked the whole case, they were all the same. He pulled them from the shelf.
> I then called timberline and said what I had seen, the woman told me a winged fruit fly from my house must have gotten in, I mentioned again I didn't buy any.
> 
> Not happy with that companies response!


Were they flying tho? Turkish gliders have wings and can jump and glide but not fly. There's also curly wings and hydei also have wings but cannot fly.

Wingless = wingless
Flightless = winged but cannot fly

I bought a culture from Petco once and they were curly wings. Curly wings are really active and jump a lot.

If they actually flew you would know it and that's another story. Also, wingless can breed with flightless and wild, and produce flyers.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Lukehartung99 said:


> Some of my fruit flies have wings! Wonderful.
> What can I do to salvage a culture (if possible) that no longer wanted to be flightless...
> 
> And can you start a culture with larva only? If you do not have enough flies to keep the diversity?


You can still probably feed from it but definitely cannot seed new cultures from it.

I've only had this happen once in about 2 years and it was because I tried perforated lids. Apparently the flies can breed though the holes  if this is what you're using get rid of them.

There is also other causes I believe high temperature can cause flyers.


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## Sktdvs14 (Oct 20, 2014)

If you keep a (winged - flightless) culture around long enough the ability to fly is bred back in. 

Its good to throw out older cultures out, and start with fresh. I noticed if I keep a culture longer than 2 months, they begin to fly again at around the 2 month mark. To avoid this I toss them out after about a month, and start fresh cultures. 

Petco cultures are great in a bind, but I'd stay away from them altogether. They begin to fly rather quicker (like a week and half I've noticed), as opposed to homemade cultures.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Sktdvs14 said:


> If you keep a (winged - flightless) culture around long enough the ability to fly is bred back in.
> 
> Its good to throw out older cultures out, and start with fresh. I noticed if I keep a culture longer than 2 months, they begin to fly again at around the 2 month mark. To avoid this I toss them out after about a month, and start fresh cultures.
> 
> Petco cultures are great in a bind, but I'd stay away from them altogether. They begin to fly rather quicker (like a week and half I've noticed), as opposed to homemade cultures.


I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on fruit flies but if you're getting flyers after 1.5 weeks to 2 months I think there might be some other factors at work.

What kind of lids are you using? Do you have a lot of wild fruit flies?


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Sktdvs14 said:


> If you keep a (winged - flightless) culture around long enough the ability to fly is bred back in.
> 
> Its good to throw out older cultures out, and start with fresh. I noticed if I keep a culture longer than 2 months, they begin to fly again at around the 2 month mark. To avoid this I toss them out after about a month, and start fresh cultures.
> 
> Petco cultures are great in a bind, but I'd stay away from them altogether. They begin to fly rather quicker (like a week and half I've noticed), as opposed to homemade cultures.


I'm sorry, but I don't think that's correct. A culture will not just gain the ability to fly over time on it's own because of time. Both mutations for flightless and wingless are recessive. So if you get a single fly from one mixed in with the other the result will be flies (most, like 3/4th) that can fly. Also I believe one of the variants (I've forgotten which one) is a mutation based on a protein folding incorrectly. And at the wrong temps the protein will fold correctly and the flies will be able to fly. It sounds like, to me, that you're cultures are getting contaminated with other flies.

Regarding the new line of fruit flies at Petco, I just noticed they switched from The Fruit fly Company to Timberline. I got one of the Timberline jars last week and a number of them flew out the first time I opened the lid. Most were just hopping around a lot, so maybe they are Turkish gliders (I don't know I haven't seen those before). But some can definitely fly.

Back to the OPs original question, the fridge idea is one thing, another you could do is to pop the lid off and set the entire culture in the tank. The frogs will hang out on the cup or in it and eat all the flies and larvae. They will continue to pick off the larvae as they climb the sides to pupate. But the fridge idea is really good, I haven't tried it but sounds like it would work well.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

tardis101 said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't think that's correct. A culture will not just gain the ability to fly over time on it's own because of time. Both mutations for flightless and wingless are recessive. So if you get a single fly from one mixed in with the other the result will be flies (most, like 3/4th) that can fly. Also I believe one of the variants (I've forgotten which one) is a mutation based on a protein folding incorrectly. And at the wrong temps the protein will fold correctly and the flies will be able to fly. It sounds like, to me, that you're cultures are getting contaminated with other flies.
> 
> Regarding the new line of fruit flies at Petco, I just noticed they switched from The Fruit fly Company to Timberline. I got one of the Timberline jars last week and a number of them flew out the first time I opened the lid. Most were just hopping around a lot, so maybe they are Turkish gliders (I don't know I haven't seen those before). But some can definitely fly.


 thanks for the cool info on mutants. Very good explanation.

It's been a while but last time I bought Petco flies they were definitely curly wings. Gliders can be deceiving but flyers are unmistakable. Gliders can pull off some impressive flights (I've seen them glide across a room) which can occasionally throw you off but legit flyers can go vertical - usually upon opening the lid.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

port_plz said:


> thanks for the cool info on mutants. Very good explanation.
> 
> It's been a while but last time I bought Petco flies they were definitely curly wings. Gliders can be deceiving but flyers are unmistakable. Gliders can pull off some impressive flights (I've seen them glide across a room) which can occasionally throw you off but legit flyers can go vertical - usually upon opening the lid.


I should have said I think that's correct anyway. Plus I see I spelled "your" wrong as "you're". 

I'll check my Timberline flies again. Maybe the one I think are flying out of the jar are just jumping out. Sure looked like they were fliers.


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## RasecEsp (Jan 7, 2016)

I got a timberland winged flightless culture from petco about 2 months ago to do a test as I had read some winged flightless regain the ability to fly once they reach certain temperature. 
I put a bunch in a 32 oz cup (sealed) and set it on top of my light fixture, it gets 113°, and after a while they did start to fly. 

I fed from this culture only 2 times then tossed it because it was infested with mites.


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## Sktdvs14 (Oct 20, 2014)

port_plz said:


> I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on fruit flies but if you're getting flyers after 1.5 weeks to 2 months I think there might be some other factors at work.
> 
> What kind of lids are you using? Do you have a lot of wild fruit flies?


There definitely is other factors at work. It may be in the way they breed/handle/package their flies. No idea. But in a bind, both times now, Petco flies were flying within a week or so of obtaining them. 

I order my fly media and kits from Idris. Same type of stuff a lot of other members here use. I'm positive it isn't the lids. Or the media. This isn't anything new. Most cultures crash before they hit that point, but if you do have a culture survive long enough, they'll begin to fly. There are old topics on the board where this topic has been discussed. 

I think theres a thread I started with good input from other members from way back in 2010. Just search my old handle: Sktdvs.

Anyway, (besides Petco cultures) - just saying, keep a culture around long enough and they'll start to fly again.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tardis101 said:


> Also I believe one of the variants (I've forgotten which one) is a mutation based on a protein folding incorrectly. And at the wrong temps the protein will fold correctly and the flies will be able to fly.


Wingless, if they get into the mid 80s F or higher, the protein functions properly allowing the development of the wings and flight. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sktdvs14 said:


> I order my fly media and kits from Idris. Same type of stuff a lot of other members here use. I'm positive it isn't the lids. Or the media. This isn't anything new. Most cultures crash before they hit that point, but if you do have a culture survive long enough, they'll begin to fly. There are old topics on the board where this topic has been discussed. .


I've been culturing the same line of flies for over a decade now without any reversions and these genetics are stable in lab cultures for decades. Yes there can be a rare mutation that reverses a homozygous effect but that would be only one culture and it would be a very very rare event. 

As for the crashing, if your cultures are crashing frequently then that is due to husbandry practices and not understanding how those practices are causing issues. You might want to start here with catching up on the issues http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42419-genetics-ff-culturing.html 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tardis101 said:


> Regarding the new line of fruit flies at Petco, I just noticed they switched from The Fruit fly Company to Timberline. I got one of the Timberline jars last week and a number of them flew out the first time I opened the lid. Most were just hopping around a lot, so maybe they are Turkish gliders (I don't know I haven't seen those before). But some can definitely fly.


One of the things people should learn to do is be able to distinguish phorid flies from regular fruit flies. It isn't uncommon for the fliers in cultures from some vendors to have these as a contaminant and when you open the lid they do fly out. These flies will lay their eggs in little holes or cracks in the lids or on the edge of the foam plugs where the larvae crawl down into the culture and develop. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Lukehartung99 (Aug 27, 2016)

I let the flies with wings out of the culture. It now has produced about 40 more flies, none of which have developed wings. 



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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is only one way to salvage a culture once you have fliers in the mixture. You need to remove all of the adults as they emerge (at least once a day) and sort them between flier and non-fliers. This has to be done daily as you need to remove the flying males before they can mate with the wingless females. You want to isolate out the flightless males and females and use only those flies to start the new cultures. 

It is generally easier to simply get a new culture. 

some comments 

Ed


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

Sktdvs14 said:


> There definitely is other factors at work. It may be in the way they breed/handle/package their flies. No idea. But in a bind, both times now, Petco flies were flying within a week or so of obtaining them.
> 
> Anyway, (besides Petco cultures) - just saying, keep a culture around long enough and they'll start to fly again.


Ah, I misunderstood your original comment. For some reason I thought you were starting with new flies every ~2 months, which seemed excessive.

My cultures typically die out in 30 - 40 days. Never had one come close to 2 months so I can't comment on that. However, Ed mentioned something interesting about other types of flying insects laying eggs outside the culture and the larvae crawling in and hatching. This makes a lot of sense all things considered.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Lukehartung99 said:


> I let the flies with wings out of the culture. It now has produced about 40 more flies, none of which have developed wings.


Depending on genetics and temperature it can take between 7 and 50 days for the eggs that were laid to complete their development and emerge as flies so you can't think that solved the issue. 

some comments 

Ed


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Ed said:


> One of the things people should learn to do is be able to distinguish phorid flies from regular fruit flies. It isn't uncommon for the fliers in cultures from some vendors to have these as a contaminant and when you open the lid they do fly out. These flies will lay their eggs in little holes or cracks in the lids or on the edge of the foam plugs where the larvae crawl down into the culture and develop.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


That's a good point. The flies that flew out did so quickly enough that I didn't see what they were. I did just assume they were ff. They well could have been something else that got into the culture.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tardis101 said:


> That's a good point. The flies that flew out did so quickly enough that I didn't see what they were. I did just assume they were ff. They well could have been something else that got into the culture.


Going through some cultures that needed to be cleaned I spotted movement in the culture and it was phorid flies. I froze the culture to make sure they couldn't get out into the house. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Any wild or "wrong" fly in a culture goes in my freezer. I don't need the headaches of cultures going wild and IMO trying to salvage a culture puts your remaining cultures at risk.


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## Denny (Jul 1, 2016)

Best thing to do not to waste these flies is cool them down in the fridge or freezer for a minute then feed. They will be slow and unable to fly. Only catch is feed less than normal with these because once they warm back up they will fly again. Next time be careful about wild flies mating with your stock and carful about crossing different mutated flies together as one type of fly will carry the good gene for the other mutated fly strain


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

I had my culture turn into fliers once and I'm pretty sure it was due to heat. I was caught off guard when I opened the lid. Let me say wife and daughter were not happy, fliers everywhere in the house. Dispose of culture and start fresh. This is what I found later in the day on the refrigerator door. Lol


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## Lukehartung99 (Aug 27, 2016)

Coqui said:


> I had my culture turn into fliers once and I'm pretty sure it was due to heat. I was caught off guard when I opened the lid. Let me say wife and daughter were not happy, fliers everywhere in the house. Dispose of culture and start fresh. This is what I found later in the day on the refrigerator door. Lol




That is hysterical haha.
I am starting a new culture with a different population of flies. 
If I use a coffee filter for aeration, can the wild flies infiltrate the stock? 


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