# Paludarium with clay background and false land/background. My first build, Help?



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I have a 30 and 20 gallon aquariums and I'm wanting to turn one of them into a Paludarium.
I'm wanting to have a clay background and a false bottom.
In the tank will be 6 green tree frogs, Green Anole, Bahamain Anole, House Gecko and numerous fish and maybe some snails.....

Most Paludariums I've seen just have a back and not really any land.
I've read about keeping a gap between the water and clay.......but I'm wanting 3/4 of land so I can have a waterfall feature over the gap between side of tank and land. I don't want a gap between the background and water.
If I have the clay touching the water will it just break down and fall in the water? Also do you have to silicone the clay to the tank?
I'm wanting this land so crickets can crawl.
With Paludariums I'm sure there will be slot a lot of drowned crickets.
Also I want a place for my lizards to be able to crawl.

I'm wondering if I silicone the false land area along the back and side and putting columns under will hold it there. Seems like it would. There will be a river feature going across land.
Do I need to put a little wall up to keep substrate in place, cover it with silicone and EcoEarth or peat moss?
How deep does the substrate need to be for plants and moss to root and will they root in EcoEarth?
I'm planning on putting a fogger on the land side. Will that keep the substrate moist or too moist?
Also what can I use for the river?
I want it to wind a bit and look natural. I was thinking clay, but how do I seal it well or bendable pvc hose(cut in half lengthways and tack it to the eggcrate. But how would I cover it and make it look natural. Maybe GE II brown silicone and peat moss or something?

I'm hoping to drill the back about half way of the tank for either a canister filter or a sump filter. So it will have a consistent water level. I have no idea how to do a freshwater sump. All I've seen are saltwater sumps.

When making the clay background what's the Bentonite for? Some use it and others don't....
It's confusing.

Any idea on making fake rocks? Real rocks will be too heavy. I've heard about habicrete but from what I hear they aren't in business. Can I use grout or something?

Last thing I think.......
I found some native vines and I'm curious if those can be used. I also have a couple biovines but I'm looking to go as natural as possible. They're kinda like grapevines. I pulled them off the Fig tree outside.
They're nice. I'm wondering if they'll mold or not.

I'm looking forward to this build I know it's gonna be complex but it's gonna be worth it.

I wish I had a comp so I can upload sketches and show more detail to help.
I just have my MyTouch.
I'd appreciate the help.
Thanks,
Brandon


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Branden, The problem here is that there are too many questions about too many different subjects. Then some of the questions show that, well, not much research has been done. Additionally, you want to mix species and a lot of us don't care for mixing species. Even so, your viv sizes are going to be way too small for all those animals. You need to do some more research and then come back with more specific questions. You need to use the search function and do some research on the following subjects. False bottoms, Clay backgrounds, kitty litter backgrounds, water features, substrates, mixing species, fake rock walls, concrete walls.
I hope I'm not dashing your spirit here. That's not what I mean to do. It sounds like quite a project. But you need to do some more research with the search function and come back with more specific questions and, well, smaller groups of questions. It's going to take a lot of time to research all you need to know for a project like this. And you need to face the facts that nobody here is going to approve of cramming that many animals into a viv that size. When we don't approve, it's hard to help.
Doug


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

They're all in a 10 gallon as of right now.
I spent days researching.
I can't use the search function cause I'm on my phone and when the box pops up it disappears when I go to type something.

I actually just got a 50 gallon off Craigslist and I'm going to use it.

My questions are pretty specific.
There is too many loop holes in posts and it's confusing.
Not very thorough.

These questions aren't really talked about from what I saw.
There's so many questions due to lack of info.
I might be a noob but I research before I go asking


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

+15 questions in a single post...Must be a new record.

I suggest looking through nomerous build threads to narrow down your questions and build methods. Having a specific question, rather then a page of rambling, will help you get your answers much easier.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Maybe if people didn't leave out steps and use plain English instead of abbreviations I'd jabber all the answers.

I simplified a bit in a different post.

Are you jgrimmier(YouTube) by any chance?

I've been researching for 3 days straight and these questions aren't discussed.

I need to know how to seal clay for water features
and if native vines will work well.

It's not rambling...... it's complex.
I haven't seen anyone on here do this....
Valid questions and descriptions man.
I was being descriptive so my ideas are understood better.

There is a simplified post called Paludarium project


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Maybe if people didn't leave out steps and use plain English instead of abbreviations I'd jabber all the answers.


How do you figure that insulting everyone who posts on here, in one sentance, is going to help your cause?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I really meant no offence....

And that's suppose to say have not jabber lol my bad

I don't believe in a lot of things yet it's not gonna stop me from helping people.

Yeah I'm mixing species. They're all tropical animals...why not.
Just having a cage with frogs got boring. 
I wanted multiple species. They're like that in the wild..

As far as being offensive I see everyone being rude to the noobs.
Insulting people with the way people reply...
Everyone here was noobs at one point

I'm not trying to be abrasive although that's all I see.
Some people are chill and some just need to relax and lend a helping hand.

I'm not lazy I've been pouring through this site and I haven't seen a build lime mine at all.
Although I know most have similar experiences.
The search feature doesn't answer everything


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Yeah I'm mixing species. They're all tropical animals...why not.
> Just having a cage with frogs got boring.
> I wanted multiple species. They're like that in the wild..



Two questions...1. Have you research/ know what species you are going to mix and if they will be in the same area as the others? 2. How big is this build going to be? Sorry if you already posted the size on here. Im very curious to see the final product of the build as I think it will be very interesting. I am not in any shape, size, or form supporting the mixed species aspect. 

YES, the dart frogs live with other species in the jungle. YES, these other species that live with the dart frogs habitat you can find in the hobby. NO, you should not mix herps from different regions in the rainforest. NO, you should not put these species in a confined space together. When i was in the jungle, most of the time it took me an hour to find another dart frog after I spotted the first one. These creatures have such a huge area that they live in that I think its crazy we keep even one dart frog in a 10 gallon tank and is one of the reasons why im switching to larger vivs, versus 10's and 20's. Grant it your animals you want to put in the viv dont come from the S. America.

If you reply that you are building a 200+ gallon viv and only going to keep maybe 4-5 darts and 3 geckos I would be more relaxed if they didnt occupie the same niche. Odds are, meaning statistically speaking, though your viv wont be near this size and will be anywhere from a 20H to a 55 gallon tank, which ARE TO SMALL. This is the main reason why so many of us are against mixed tanks. If you look at the guy with the large viv build you will find few comments on his mixed species cause of its massive size, and few animals in there from the last time i read it a few months back, could have changed now.

I hope you see where we are coming from as a hobby and might think about this build as a mixed tank a different way and just stick to darts if it will be a smaller tank.

**Edit**
I saw your size tanks you are planning to use for this build in the first post, dont know how I missed it. This is a stupid mistake to put all these animals in a small enclosure such as the ones mentioned. I have worked with anoles, house geckos, and green tree frogs to know that food competition will be to high and extremely difficult to make sure everyone gets the proper amount of crickets. My green tree frog also got big enough to eat a house gecko if it was in the same enclosure. I read somewhere where a Barking tree frog even ate an anole, had pictures attached with it...Will try to find that thread again on another forum. PLEASE reconsider this build as it is not going to be a success and only a disaster.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I've kept a close eye on all of them and they're fine.
They don't need to compete cause there is plenty of food.

I'm going to make it regardless. If they fight then I'll separate them.
I have many free aquariums to put them in if they do.

I've seen people put 3 darts in a 10 gallon.......


I know this will work. They've been in that habitat together for a while. I'm sushi getting two more Green Anoles if I do the 55g.
I plan on making other Paludariums for just the lizards.
People need to relax.....

My House Gecko is twice as long as my tree frog.
You must have had a baby gecko or or something...
There's no way my frogs cold eat it.
If I see any animal big enough to eat another trust me
I'll pull them out.

It will be fine....


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

I pretty much only use my phone when I view this forum. When I hit search the same thing happens. If you hit search again it should work.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I've kept a close eye on all of them and they're fine.
> They don't need to compete cause there is plenty of food.
> 
> I'm going to make it regardless. If they fight then I'll separate them.
> ...


Do you understand the concept of niches?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I've kept a close eye on all of them and they're fine.
> They don't need to compete cause there is plenty of food.
> 
> I'm going to make it regardless. If they fight then I'll separate them.
> ...


Look man, I'm not going to lie to you much of the stuff you want to do is possible, it just isn't a good idea especially at what seems to be your current level of knowledge and experience. I can shove my 3lb fennec fox into a 10gal aquarium but I bet she won't be happy there nor live particularly long. I can probably shove both her and a turtle in the same tank too but I bet one injures the other, and neither thrive. It may be a less extreme case but that is essentially what you are talking about. Just because you've seen people shove 3 darts in a 10 doesn't mean it is a good idea. Just because you've seen people shove several different species into a viv (while also over populating the tank in general) doesn't mean it is a good idea. 

Those setups only tend to be successful in the longterm for advanced hobbyists who know how to set up a tank to meet each of the animals needs. Careful thought has been put into selecting the specific mix of animals and the specific numbers of each animal to be included. Usually they pick things that will not interact much because they tend to inhabit different parts of the viv and/or be active at different times. Most if not all the information people have given you so far is good and their concerns valid. At the very least you are looking at a high amount of probable stress shoving that many species, and that many of each species into the same tank. Stress kills animals...period, its a fact. You generally wont find half a dozen species herps/amphibs crammed into the same area that a 50gal tank has in the wild. Going with the 50 is smart though. You should go with the biggest tank possible if we can't talk you out of this and you should probably cut down on the numbers of each species. 

Anoles are very territorial, you are likely to run into issues there if you house 2 males of different species together. I would cut the number of tree frogs by 2 or maybe 3 to be safe. Most native plants will not do well in viv, you can try them but bringing in things from outside is a contamination risk, and you should consider plants that stay small, or grow slowly so the will require a minimum of pruning. Clay will not generally hold up to running water well...misting it is fine, but a waterfall or drip wall, or having it submerged is likely to degrade it quickly. I don't have experience with clay, and frankly what your talking about in some cases on construction options isn't clear to me so I can't help you much there.

Clay for the stream if I understood you right is probably a bad idea. Carving the stream out of foam or something would probably be better. If I were you I'd search the clay threads and read them, many of your questions should have been answered in them. The same goes for just reading more construction threads, you should find many of your answers there if you do enough reading. 3 days is minimal research. Many people here spent weeks or months, some even a year or more reading the forums before they attempted anything close to what you are trying.

Honestly from what I'm reading I'm reminded of how I was when I started this hobby. Very ambitious, wanting to mix all kinds of species etc..etc... if that is the case you will find that much of what you think is "ok" now will not be ok later as you progress and truly begin to understand why we say and do these things. There are so many things you just aren't aware of or aren't considering or aware how important they actually are and probably won't be until you have more experience and I already had some experience and a pretty huge knowledge base to draw from when I started compared to the average person probably, but I still had several rude awakenings and learned the value of advice like people are giving you here now the hard way in many cases. 

Trust us, we've been there, we've done that and we have very good and valid reasons for discouraging people from going down those paths. You will loose more animals then if you instead stick to accepted practices and wait to mix when you have more knowledge and experience. If you care about your animals and being a responsible keeper that should bother you and you should tread carefully follow most of the good advice you are given so that you keep mistakes to a minimum. I suggest you do much more research before proceeding with emphasis on construction threads, the clay threads and mixing species threads. I personally don't have a problem with mixing when done by knowledgeable and experienced keepers who attempt it in the most responsible ways, but I'm sorry man I don't think you are there yet. If you have to ask this many question just about building a viv you are not qualified to attempt putting together a multi species enclosure. Thats not an insult, or anything to be ashamed of...I'm not qualified to do demolitions work blowing up buildings, but if I studied and trained etc..etc... I could be probably, and so you could be qualified to do a multi species viv some day, but IMO today isn't that day...you aren't ready to attempt this responsibly yet. Get more experience building vivs and keeping each of the species individually that you want to mix later and show us you care about the animals, that they just aren't objects for your entertainment but have value in and of themselves and that you want to do it right and many here will be much more helpful and encouraging. I've been exactly where you are now, and you are picking the hard and less responsible road and your animals will pay for it. Turn back, slow down and take the better path


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

I agree with Dave, but also you need to seperate the animals now if they are all together.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks Dave for the info and being an adult and talking like one.

I'm going to do the build but I'm also gonna do more for the others.
It's better than the 10 gallon they're in now.
My sister has a 250 I'm trying to talk her out of.

I'm a quick learner and I know I can do this

I'm gonna experiment with a few spare 10s I have.
That way if they work out I can already split them up.

Only male Anoles get territorial that much.
If I put females there shouldn't be an issue.

I've seen my Bahamain Anole, Green Anole, and House Gecko cuddled up together sleeping. I've watched them closely and they get along.
I had to take one out cause he was being aggressive...

I'm planning on separating them as I get to it.
I don't have the money to equip each separate cage.....


I forgot about this question....
I have a small undertank heater and I'm curious if it will be ok to put that behind a layer of clay as like a little heat spot.
I know that might speed drying of the clay so I'll have to keep it moist.
I use it now under the substrate and it helps humidity


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

The others have pretty much covered it, but I thought I'd brake it down a bit.



> I have a 30 and 20 gallon aquariums and I'm wanting to turn one of them into a Paludarium.
> I'm wanting to have a clay background and a false bottom.
> In the tank will be 6 green tree frogs, Green Anole, Bahamain Anole, House Gecko and numerous fish and maybe some snails.....


Either of the tanks are WAY too small, even for 6 tree frogs. most, if not all of these reptiles inhabit the same "niche" which means they all inhabit the same area of the cage (i.e. branches/top of terrarium)



> If I have the clay touching the water will it just break down and fall in the water? Also do you have to silicone the clay to the tank?
> I'm wanting this land so crickets can crawl.
> With Paludariums I'm sure there will be slot a lot of drowned crickets.
> Also I want a place for my lizards to be able to crawl.


Ok. yes the clay will break down,
no you don't silicone clay to the tank, it will stick fine by itself
and the herps will need more than the 1/3 (or really 2-3'' in a 20 gallon) of land yu want to provide.

for the following plethora of questions, answers will be red.


> I'm wondering if I silicone the false land area along the back and side and putting columns under will hold it there. Seems like it would. There will be a river feature going across land.
> So you want to put 2-3'' of land, then put a river on it? even if there's like 8 inches of water 1/4'' away? IMO, there would be no point of land if you want a river.
> Do I need to put a little wall up to keep substrate in place, cover it with silicone and EcoEarth or peat moss?
> Do you want dirty water? no. so a barrier would be best.
> ...





> When making the clay background what's the Bentonite for? Some use it and others don't....
> It's confusing.
> The bentonite IS THE CLAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Any idea on making fake rocks? Real rocks will be too heavy. I've heard about habicrete but from what I hear they aren't in business. Can I use grout or something?
> ...



Again, PLEASE do more research, and realise just how much you are craming these reptiles. If this viv/palu was atleast a 400+ gallon, then I wouldn't be as..uhh... frustrated (???) and if there was more land.

again, I hope this doesn't come out too mean, as I tried to make it as nice as I can, But you really need to do more research. not just on here, but on other forums, google, etc...


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

If your herps are "cuddling", thats not good. it means they are stressed.

also, a heat pad behind the clay wouldn't be as good as a heat lamp.

IMO, a 250, is still pushing it a bit... I mean, assuming you'll have about 12+ inches, thats still like approximately 8 gallons/creature? not enough IMO... but thats just me...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually you can seal clay.. but then it isn't going to behave how one wants to behave (unless you want it water proof and hard like a rock). Basically you mix enough acrylic into it and let it harden... it is then sealed.. (to everything, microfauna, plants, water..) but it also loses a lot of it's functionality. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would strongly suggest reviewing the following threads 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html

(the link to the ultimate clay thread discusses a lot of the infor you want including bentonite and explains it is a clay..) 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/59903-clay-fail.html

A lot of the information has been discussed repeatedly and it is a lot to continually retype. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I haven't really seen anyone use heat lamps..

The land will be atleast 55% or more
I'm sure that's enough for a small stream.

From what I've been told by veterinarians if any animal is stressed by another they will avoid that other animal.....
I've seen stressed animals..... when they are even touch by another they get spooked and run off......
I've consulted reptile vets btw....

I used the soak and bake method for all wood I use.
I'm not sure what kind of vines they are....
They're the vines that wrap around trees and branches.
I'll try to get them identified.
Might just use the silicone/peat and seal them good


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

*sigh* are we really holding hands again here folks? Ed you are both full of sage like wisdom and patience. I imagine you meditate and float under a bodhi or something.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks Ed. I figured it could be done.
I don't mind it actually to harden as long as it carries water.
I might even let it harden then seal it.
Clay will be easier to manipulate then tubing.
Thanks a lot for the info.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I haven't really seen anyone use heat lamps..
> 
> The land will be atleast 55% or more
> I'm sure that's enough for a small stream.


It is hard to successfully maintain heliothermic lizards longterm without basking sites.. They can have real issues thermoregulating without those cues. 
Attaching a heat pad behind a background not only significantly decreases the effectiveness of the heating pad, but it can also result in a heat build-up in the glass cracking it. 
A heating pad behind a "standard" clay background is going to cause problems with excess drying and wicking of water up into the clay. This can also result in a form of salt creep which can cause issues with plant growth. 

You will have to have a method for draining the other side of the tank, as water will end up out of the stream (all it takes is a piece of substrate or moss touching the stream to wick it out of the stream. 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> From what I've been told by veterinarians if any animal is stressed by another they will avoid that other animal.....
> I've seen stressed animals..... when they are even touch by another they get spooked and run off......


Actually it depends on the level of stress and this is well documented in the literature. At low levels of chronic stress, the avoidence response begins to disappear and can totally disappear at higher levels. This causes the immune system of the reptile/amphibian to become suppressed potentially resulting in increased infections and/or problems with parasites. 

Who was your vet? I would be interested in asking them if reptiles and amphibians only demonstrate stress in a multispecies enclosure by avoidence and that animals sitting side by side are a sign that they are under no stress. Can you supply thier contact information? 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fleshfrombone said:


> *sigh* are we really holding hands again here folks? Ed you are both full of sage like wisdom and patience. I imagine you meditate and float under a bodhi or something.


 
And singing Kumbaya


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Thanks Ed. I figured it could be done.
> I don't mind it actually to harden as long as it carries water.
> I might even let it harden then seal it.
> Clay will be easier to manipulate then tubing.
> Thanks a lot for the info.


I suggest reviewing the risks of adding acrylic fortifier to it... particularly in a circulating stream. 


Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Maybe I should have been aware of space before I got them.
It's too late now.
I have them all and I don't currently have the money to equip several tanks right now..
I'm gonna build more tanks when I get the funds.

Acrylic fortifier  can you tell me more about it please.

What about the waterfall.... if I just put a layer of silicone and peat where the water will flow will that be ok?


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Maybe I should have been aware of space before I got them.
> It's too late now.
> I have them all and I don't currently have the money to equip several tanks right now..
> I'm gonna build more tanks when I get the funds.


This is why you ALWAYS research BEFORE buying an animal.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

ryangreenway said:


> This is why you ALWAYS research BEFORE buying an animal.


ding ding ding ding we have a winner!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> It's too late now.
> I have them all and I don't currently have the money to equip several tanks right now..


The worst excuse. Find a local pet shop and drop off some of the animals that you don't have separate tanks for. Dude, your animals are going to _die_.

I like to try to get people the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.... But this thread is a new low (and I've seen a lot of dumb threads before).


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

How long have you had your animals? Please tell me you at least got fecals done on all of them before throwing them all into a 10 gallon tank...
If you dont have the money to provide proper care for all of your animals, you shouldnt be buying more and cramming them all into the same tiny aquarium.

As for clay tanks and substrate questions, both of the tanks in my signature are clay tanks, and Ed linked some of the best clay threads on the forum.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Here are some more links to read:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/58175-grimms-twin-build.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/60202-my-10-gallon-clay-background-build-2.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/59651-10g-vert.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...day-weekend-build-clay-background-method.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/54887-i-love-clay.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/59655-15-gallon-tall-future-imitator-vive.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...new-vivarium-construction-pics-imitators.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the short-term, you need to deal with the animals until you can figure out what you are doing. 

As I understand it, you have three tanks, a ten-gallon, a 20 gallon and a 30 gallon. I would suggest setting up some basic enclosures until you figure out what you are going to do.. 
If you know the sexes of the anoles, you should make sure that you seperate the males of those species. The house gecko can be housed with one or the other anoles. I would put the treefrogs into either the 20 or 30 gallon tank in the meantime. 

The anoles will need basking sites, the house gecko would actually benefit from a piece of cork leaned up against the back/side of the tank to provide a crevice. As there is an air gap, you can put a small heat pad on the side (the smallest works for a basking site for the gecko). You will need to mist both of these to supply drinking water for them. 

The treefrogs can get by with some cork leaned against the sides over a moist substrate and a shallow water bowl. 

This will work for a little buy you some time to figure out what you are going to do.. 

Ed


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Ed said:


> In the short-term, you need to deal with the animals until you can figure out what you are doing.


Best advice given in this thread so far


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## Bananaslug (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm sorry to say that I have laughed more while reading this thread than I have all week. It's not funny, I know, but what else can I do? So frustrating! At least it makes me feel a bit better about the mistakes I've made


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I know! It's like a train wreck...I can't look away!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Smackofthegods yes my animals will die...all animals will eventually die.
My animals are just fine.....

I'm going to separate them....no need to act like douchebags...
I was mislead in having so many in one tank....

I'm currently looking into vert converting one of my many 10g tanks.

Correction to whomever(maybe Ed) said I only has a 10,20,30 gallon tank.....
Those are the only ones I've mentioned.
I have 6 other 10s and a 40g breeder.
I've got my eye on more...
I don't have the money currently to get bulbs, screen covers and everything for each individual cage.
They'll be fine while I gather supplies
The drawback of Vert kits is the lack of top screens and cfls are expensive

So I made a mistake, who hasn't....
I've never seen so many rude cocky people. Sure you know your stuff but some don't so educate then instead of ridiculing them.
I only searched what could be mixed instead of how many together.

As far as dropping them of at the Petstore....
Not gonna happen....they will be better off with me then some kid who looks at it for a week then loses interest and let's them die.
I breed crickets and they have plenty to eat.

Those calling it a train wreck will be proven wrong once I'm done.

I'm a beginner....of course I don't know everything yet.

If you don't wanna help then don't.

Kyle(i think that's your name. Sorry if I'm wrong), site owner.....
Your members really know how to treat people and drag them down.
I've never seen such an unwelocoming on any site ever.


Relax and chill out people I will learn.....
How about a video to show how healthy they are?
Pics are to hard to take of some...vids are easier.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

It doesn't help when senior members try to offer you advice and you shoot it down, stating the animals will be fine. From what I gather, you did little to no research on the individual species of animals you bought, and just threw them ALL into a 10 gallon tank. 



> I'm going to do the build but I'm also gonna do more for the others.
> It's better than the 10 gallon they're in now.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

I wasn't really shooting them down.
Trust me I'm learning from them.
No abrasiveness needed tho....

I was simply saying I'm continuing with the build...
I can atleast get all the tree frogs into the bigger tank.

Relax people. It will be taken care of. I don't have extra money laying around like half of you. I'm lucky enough to have groceries all month.
I feed my animals and my pregnant gf before myself.
I actually gave up my food budget a few times to get things needed for them all.

Back off. I understand my mistake and I'm working on fixing it


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I wasn't really shooting them down.
> Trust me I'm learning from them.
> No abrasiveness needed tho....
> Reread your previous post, you clearly are shooting them down, saying they are wrong and you're doing it anyways
> ...





> As far as dropping them of at the Petstore....
> Not gonna happen....they will be better off with me then some kid who looks at it for a week then loses interest and let's them die.
> I breed crickets and they have plenty to eat.
> Keeping them all in a 10 gallon is JUST as bad.


SEARCH FUNCTION

heck, ill make it easier

SEARCH FUNCTION


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Boabab95 thanks for that. The drop down menus aren't that mobile friendly nor touch screen friendly. It drops then I tap it and it goes away.

I was saying that based on my sources. Evidently they were wrong.
I researched Ed and come to find he's more knowledgeable then my sources.
Sure my sources are vets but most might have never built a vivarium nor owned herps

I asked help on building which anyone who has done builds can assist with that.
No offence but I only take animal advice from accredited people.
Surely I'm not gonna listen to people whom are gonna act like an ass towards me.
Be respectful and I'll respect you.
Why should I listen to rude disrespectful people


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Most of us are more than willing to help beginners out. Do you see the "thanks" by peoples names? That only gets there because we help people out. We tried to help you. We tried to guide you in the right direction. You have responded by telling many of the more respected members of the board that they are dead wrong. You have ignored the advice given you and instead stated that you are gonna do it anyway. Not just once or twice, but over and over. You have responded by making blanket statements that not one of us knows how to post a "how to" on anything, and that every thread on the board is full of holes and meaningless. You have responded with name calling in private messages. 
Have I been rude to you? Absolutely I have. But only after you have been exceedingly rude to me. Each time somebody tries to extend a helping hand to you, you blow off their offer of help. You say that some made up herp Vet has advised you differently but it's quite obvious that you haven't consulted any professional that knows diddly squat. How come you refuse to give this vets contact information?
You have at your disposal, many froggers who have successfully raised 100's of froglets each. You have a retired professional herptologist who has tried to help you. The people that you are treating so badly, and ignoring the help that we have tried to provide, love our animals. You are doing things that will definitely kill, or DRASTICALLY shorten the lives of your animals. When you make it SOO abundantly clear that you will not listen to any advice that anyone has given you, we give up. I had hoped, early on in this, that someone could change your mind. That you would realize that you were misinformed and that you would do well to listen to all this free advice. Because you HAVE TO FORGET EVERYTHING YOU THINK YOU KNOW! You have to change everything or you animals WILL die. But we can see that it is too late to save your animals. At this point I could take your animals and release them in downtown New York during rush hour and they would have a better chance of seeing next month! 
If you want help and you want to save your animals, you have to back off. You have to quit telling all of us we are dead wrong. You have some HUGE apologies to make! You have to do what Ed recommended NOW! But you won't. Because you are the most hardheaded stubborn know it all that ever walked the earth. Instead you are going to respond by telling me off again.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Boabab95 thanks for that. The drop down menus aren't that mobile friendly nor touch screen friendly. It drops then I tap it and it goes away.
> 
> I was saying that based on my sources. Evidently they were wrong.
> I researched Ed and come to find he's more knowledgeable then my sources.
> ...


You should listen to them because they care more about the well being of your animals than your feelings.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Smackofthegods yes my animals will die...all animals will eventually die.
> My animals are just fine......


I sure hope you're right about that. Keeping those animals in a 10 or 20 gallon tank... I'm willing to bet they'd have a better chance of seeing Christmas if you were to release them in downtown Atlanta.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So I made a mistake, who hasn't....
> I've never seen so many rude cocky people. Sure you know your stuff but some don't so educate then instead of ridiculing them.
> I only searched what could be mixed instead of how many together.
> 
> ...


When a person (whether they're accredited or not) who has _years_ of experience working in a specific hobby (guess what, most of your vets don't have _any_ personal experience working in the herp hobby) makes a recommendation and you reply with:



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm going to make it regardless. If they fight then I'll separate them.
> 
> …
> 
> I know this will work. They've been in that habitat together for a while.


What exactly do you _think_ is going to happen?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh yeah, and by the way, IF they're gonna do it, most people burn their bridges *AFTER* they get across!
Doug


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo there you go again twisting my words....

I said MOST have holes and steps are taken out.
Or maybe I said almost all.
I did not say all.

Me being exceedingly rude with you.....
No I asked you to stop taking what I say out of context.
Oh yeah so rude.

You lied and said I swore at you.....
Ass is the closest I've used and that isn't a "swear" word lol

You've lied and was disrespectful to me.

The only thing I've dismissed was people telling me I have too many.
I'm not trying to blanket anything lmao
You're a trip Pumilo.
Read again.......cause you're twisting things.

Everyone is hassling me about the quantity of the inhabitants.
They'll be separated.
They've been together for 3 months a month or more won't hurt.....
My hands are tied right now.
Since people are so concerned send me supplies.

I'm not trying to burn bridges either

Evidently I came across wrong to people.
I SAID I MADE A MISTAKE......
I meant no offence to anyone....

After your lies I could care less about burning your bridge Doug. Stop twisting what I say and misleading others with your out of context babble.

So how about you be an adult and just move on man and stop causing drama


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You are posting on a PUBLIC forum and I can watch you dig yourself deeper all I want.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> After your lies I could care less about burning your bridge Doug. Stop twisting what I say and misleading others with your out of context babble.


I'm not talking about my bridge, there are people that have been on here way longer than me that you have insulted by blowing them off.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

They'll see Christmas.....
They've been together for four months.

They'll be ok for another month while I make them a better one.


I'm not trying to be offensive but if you're gonna just ridicule me instead of help me that defeats the purpose of what's trying to get done.

Once again relax....
I'll post a vid later showing their setup and showing that they are in great health.

They aren't gonna die in a month due to stress.....
That would have happened already...

They're healthy that's what matters.
They'll be separated soon.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

please post the vid, i would like to see they're in "great health"


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## sbye (Nov 10, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185,

In my opinion, if you are set on making this tank work I think you should start from the beginning. I think that you should find a new home for the animals that you already have (or atleast most of them). You don't have to take them back to the store, I'm sure you can find them a wonderful home here on Dendroboard. Selling them will also help you recoup some funds to help your paludarium build. 

The best advice I can give you is to take your time so you make as few mistakes as possible. The more mistakes you make, the more costly this project is going to be. Which you are definitely not going to want if you are short on funds (I know how it is, I'm just a poor college student). Taking your time will also allow you to save up some money for the project.

Another reason I think you should sell your animals is because once you actually get your tank built you are going to want to let it sit for atleast a month so it can "balance" confused:can't think of the word I'm looking for right now, I'm sure somebody on here will be able to help me out. It's way past my bedtime) itself out. It will be a lot better for your animals. 

I would also recommend building a smaller tank before you try to build the big one. The reason I say this is because most people don't end up being satisfied with their first tank and end up tearing it down fairly quickly. Building a smaller tank will allow you to practice and you will be much happier with your bigger build when you get to it. Tearing down a smaller tank will be much more cost effective too. You will also realize that building vivariums and paludariums etc... is a lot of fun and very addicting. I enjoy building the vivs just as much as I enjoy keeping PDF's.

Once you are finished with your palaudarium, have waited long enough, and are confident you have done enough research to succeed I would then recommend purchasing the animals you are interested in. It will be much less stressful for them and for you. Don't just purchase these animals because you want to and you think they are cool... You have to care for these animals and do what is best for them and not what interests you.

Do a ton of research and never stop. I have been keeping PDF's for 5 years now and I have learned a lot, but I still do not even come close to the knowledge that some of the people on here have. And that is only with PDF's... I couldn't even imagine throwing a bunch of other animals into the mix.

I have never done a mixed tank before, but if I ever wanted to it would take a ton of research. You have to build your tank to accommodate for each animal that you house in it (which i would imagine is very tough). I recommend that you start out with just one animal and learn as much as you can about that before you try another type of animal. I am only saying this because you said that you are going to do this mixed tank no matter what. My recommendation would be the same as most of the people on here have already said. I wouldn't do a mixed tank. You have to realize what is best for your animals, they are completely dependent on us.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Well I guess you can't go to the other thread it's gimme.
I get bashed and I defend myself and I'm the one being punished?

Hopefully it's not gone permanently.

Those who have helped, thank you I greatly appreciate it.

I have enough info to play around with a tank.
I'm starting Monday hopefully.
I'm not doing third Paludarium until I practice and make a vivarium for the Gecko and Anoles. 

Sorry for the drama.
I'm going to take a break from all this and let things calm.

I'll try to post a video of the current tank they're in.
A guy on the other thread wanted to see it.

Thanks again for the help and I'm sorry if I came across wrong. I'm going through some rough times.
Hopefully when things calm we can move past the drama and what's been said.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Sbye sorry I said your username wrong lol.


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## sbye (Nov 10, 2009)

DragonSpirit1185,

Did you post a reply and it got deleted? I never got anything and it looks like you responded. The only thing I saw was you said that you spelled my name wrong lol.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Go back a page. I didn't mean no offense on anything in it.
Sometimes I come off wrong....

But it's at the end of page 5


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