# Pool overrun with tads, best option?



## Jerm

A friend of mine called me today to ask a question about some frogs at a house that he recently purchased. Appearantly the house had been in forclosure for some time before he bought it and, during this time, the swimming pool in the back yard accumulated hundreds of tadpoles. I have heard of this happening here in Fl quite often, but have never been the one to make the decision on what to do with them. I am going over there tomorrow to identify the species and get an idea of how many there are to deal with. He said that there are dead adults around the pool that i can i.d. them from. The pool is enclosed with a screen lanai which the frogs appearantly tried to escape from but couldn't, and dried out, or ran out of food due to the numbers of frogs in there. My concerns are that they possibly might not be a native species, or maybe chytrid is present?? We have a problem right now with invasive species of frogs and treefrogs taking over and crowding our native frogs and treefrogs. I hope that they aren't cuban treefrogs because I will not release them into the wild. I don't want to kill them, but there are hundreds. I will not have any part in releasing hundreds on non-native species back into the wild. I will help them move the tads if i find that they are a native green treefrog or another native species. I have contacted the Florida Fish and Wildlife Dept. to ask if there were any regulations on transporting these tads to a near by creek and they said that they don't have any regulations on tadpoles themselves so they would be fine. They acted like they really didn't care if they were native or not which worried me. Anyway, I would like some input from other frog entheusiasts on the situation and maybe suggestions on what to do if they are in fact a non-native invasive species. One more thing, the owner of the house won't allow them to be killed being an animal lover, and I personally don't kill animals myself, even if there are hundreds. I will add a poll once I find out what kind of frogs that they are.


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## dwdragon

Contact a Zoo maybe?

The best I could think of would be if there is any way to raise them and put them in the pet trade but of course this is what led to them being there in the first place so probably not the best of solutions.

I honestly have no solution other than that for hundreds of frogs if they are invasive and my understanding of cuban tree frogs is that they aren't likely to get most of them killed in the wild as they eat everything else.

Really there are probably only 2 completely aceptable options but neither is likely to be available. 

1. Ship them to a native area they normally come from and release them (this is scary as they may have chytrid)

2. Find a zoo or reptile house (or a few of them) that could effectively house that many. Maybe split the colony between several places such as Zoo, reptile houses, and rescue centers.

Like I said neither of those options is likely to be available. I'm surprised they survived the pool which even if recently chlorinated should have had some residual chemicals in it.


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## AlexRible

hmm thats a very interesting problem to have... I hope that they are a native species, but from what you said I wouldn't hold my breath. I don't think that their is much you can do if don't want to put them back in the wild or kill them. The only thing I could think of was to find homes for them.


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## Rich Conley

dwdragon said:


> Contact a Zoo maybe?


Zoo wont want anything to do with them. Raising animals like these cost lots of time and money. 


( I know a lot of people who work in zoos and aquariums. People 'donating' animals is a problem)


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## Richard

Sounds like a potential frog leg fry to me... lol.


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## stemcellular

This will sound cruel but what about selling/giving them away as feeders for snakes and other herps that will consume tads/froglets? I'm sure someone would be willing to front the shipping cost for a ton of feeders.


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## roxrgneiss

Jerm said:


> Anyway, I would like some input from other frog entheusiasts on the situation and maybe suggestions on what to do if they are in fact a non-native invasive species. One more thing, the owner of the house won't allow them to be killed being an animal lover, and I personally don't kill animals myself, even if there are hundreds.


If they are a non-native species, it might be worth finding out if any studies have been done of their impact on native species to help in deciding what to do with them. Also, knowing if they are established and naturalized is important - if they are in FL in great numbers and reproducing and populating without any help from people, there may not be much you can do to really help stem their 'invasion' unless you get a job or volunteer with an agency dealing with the matter on a larger scale - removing larvae from only a small area may not have much effect on their population in FL. 

If they are an alien invasive and you don't want to release them or cull them, I would suggest setting them out as food for birds (hopefully natives!).

In case you can't ID the remains of adults, here is a tadpole key tutorial & key: USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center "Tadpoles of the United States and Canada: A Tutorial and Key" , follow the links at the bottom.

Here's some info about invasive species; the definitions on page 48 (pg 58 of the pdf) are worth knowing at least: http://www.gisp.org/publications/brochures/globalstrategy.pdf

Maybe FL F&W can put you in contact with an organization that would like to know about what you find.

Good luck.

Mike


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## Philsuma

For a lightning quick identification...post here:

Field Herp Forum

If they are _osteopilus septentrionalis, _I would seriously consider destroying them as they are arguably the most invasive and destructive non native animal in Florida.


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## thedude

in my opinion if they are invasive then destroy them. explain to your friend the enormous problems with non natives. if you destroy them dont consider it killing frogs, consider it saving natives.

the F&W only care about keeping non natives out of the actual wilderness. such as national parks and forests. zoos wont take them and it would be rediculous to send them back to their native land.

seriously if they are invasive, just kill them. it ultimatly helps everyone, especially the environment.


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## Catfur

Given that Bd is not terribly fond of Florida's hot weather, I don't think it's very likely they have that.

And I think that Florida F&W's attitude towards Cuban Treefrogs is summed up by mentioning barn doors and horses.


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## frogsanddogs

I know my mom who lives in Florida has culled a few of the Cuban Tree frogs if she happens to catch one somewhere or finds one in her pool that is not already dead as she has seen her native frog population go from booming to almost non existant due to these pests. I can ask her how she did it- not something she would be particularly thrilled about either but I think like a previous post mentioned she did not see it as killing frogs but rather trying to help save the little greenhouse frogs and other local tree frogs that used to be so abundant before the boom of the Cuban Tree frogs. 

My guess would be she probably uses a plastic bag in the freezer as she has worked with some university and other study programs trying to identify pest species (usually bugs, grubs, beetles, etc)- and to find what is native and what is non native and to collect specimins of new pests for them to add to the study usually requires freezing to cull and preserve them. This would certainly be an easy method for tadpoles. Feel free to PM me if you'd like though and I would be happy to call her and find out what the best method is that she has learned about & she may have people in the know that she can ask and if I talk to her I will try to remember to ask her what is the recommended method and what she has used in culling the Cuban TFs as they are pretty large. 

And if they are native species, that would be awesome that they were protected enough within the lanai to thrive that you could do a great release program to put some back into the wild as their populations have been so hurt by the arrival of the CTFs!


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## frogsanddogs

BTW I think the idea someone previously suggested of using them as a feeder food would be good if they were safe to consume but how come they have no predators in Florida? Are the snakes that live there too small? Or can they just not catch the frogs in the trees? If they would make good snake food I am curious as to why the snakes in Florida don't seem to be predators for them? My impression was the reason they were such a problem was that they eat all of the native frog species but also that they don't have any natural predators here. Does anyone know?


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## Ed

There are native species that predate on cuban tree frogs (for example see http://www.fosbirds.org/FFN/Articles/FFNv23n4p97-98Meshaka.pdf) however this species is very well adapted to disturbed habitats (such as areas where people live) and this combined with the fact that it predates on smaller native species allows it to displace the natives. People tend to exclude a lot of the potential predators from areas around homes allowing these to be population export sites for cubans. 
If they are cuban tree frogs, if you want to humanely euthanize the tadpoles drain down the pool and add enough alcohol to make about a 15% solution. This will humanely euthanize the tadpoles. 

The thing to remember about making assumptions on chytrid based on habitat, is you can easily make an incorrect assumption.. if chytrid has infected a species that doesn't get hot enough to wipe it out, this allows it to be asymptomatically present in an area and only cause mortalities if the temperature of the amphibians gets below 75 consistantly.. so chytrid could easily be present in that region of Florida but it maybe asymptomatically present as it could only cause mortalities at certain times of the year...

Ed


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## markpulawski

They should be destroyed. no matter how you do it. Most pools here 2.5 gallons of chlorine a week, one that has not been maintained would need 3 times that for a couple of weeks, that would clean them out but i don't know how inhumane that may be. Tell your friend to hold their nose when they go to clean the filter...


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## frogsanddogs

Thanks for the article and answer Ed.. that makes more sense now.

Jerm- Please let us know what kind of frogs they are when you check them out..... I am very curious now and keep checking back to this thread.... Perhaps you can take a picture of the pool when you go over... if nothing else, that would certainly be something you don't see every day. 

Thanks,
Marissa


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## markpulawski

Come to Florida, there are thousands of pools here now in the same condition.
Mark


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## Philsuma

I think Orlando is a little far north for _Bufo Marinus...._but.....hey.


How 'bout a pic JERM??


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## Ed

markpulawski said:


> They should be destroyed. no matter how you do it. Most pools here 2.5 gallons of chlorine a week, one that has not been maintained would need 3 times that for a couple of weeks, that would clean them out but i don't know how inhumane that may be. Tell your friend to hold their nose when they go to clean the filter...


Not humane at all..... 

Ed


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## Jerm

Thanks everyone for the concerns and responses. I apologize for taking so long to get back and post, had a very busy weekend with my frogs and other animals at my home. I actually had to rescedule going over there until this evening (Nov 10) because they also had other stuff going on on Saturday. They are waiting on me to come and investigate the situation. I will take my camera and get photos to post tomorrow. I tried to get as much info over the phone, but when you are talking to someone who knows nothing about frogs, it is hard to determine a species. They can't even tell me whether they are treefrogs or toads, haha. The first thing that i will do is try to determine the species and then go from there.



Ed said:


> If they are cuban tree frogs, if you want to humanely euthanize the tadpoles drain down the pool and add enough alcohol to make about a 15% solution. This will humanely euthanize the tadpoles.


I haven't heard of this method, but i did hear that you can use orajel, if a small amount is applied to a frogs head, it will numb their brain and kill them with no pain within a couple of minutes. Has anyone else heard of this? It sounds humane to me. Here is an article that i read this in: Dispatching Cuban Tree Frogs - Florida Gardening Forum - GardenWeb. I know that I said i wouldn't kill anything, but i am trying to prepare myself for anything, you never know.


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## Ed

This is a little out dated as benzocaine has been accepted but as with many other things I have not had a chance to update it 
Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia for Amphibians 

for the record, with the exception of some temperate species, herps do not go into a torpor when cold... this is a common misconception based on the fact that due to the cold thier response time is very reduced.. They can still feel pain and at least one study demonstrated that freezing is very likely painful as the animal is aware but unable to move. 

for a primer see http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1447&context=gpwdcwp 

see also http://www.tbzmed.ac.ir/Animalhouse...uthanasia of experimental animals(part 2).pdf 

Ed


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## Jerm

Ok, I went over there and pulled a few of the tads and froglets out to identify. Some of the tads were a lot larger than the others so they might be a couple of different species. Here is what i have so far, anyone know what these might grow up to be? They still have remnants of tails so far...


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## Jerm

and here are a couple that are still tads...


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## Jerm

I couldn't get any pics of the pool itself due to it being dark when I got there, i will take some when i go back to help them move them. These last two pics are a couple that are having some difficulty in the transition. The first one seems to be waterlogged, probably due to it being hard to get out of the pool, and the second has a problem with one of his front legs which is not coming through the skin. Any suggestions on what I could do to help these out?


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## Philsuma

Hmmmm....I do NOT think those are _Osteopilus septentrionalis_ Larvae.

_Osteopilus septentrionalis_ Tadpoles have a rounded body. They are black above, the fleshy part of the wide-finned tail is gray-brown. The fin has scattered dark flecking.

And the reddish eyes don't seem to match either. Raise a few and see what morphs out..

interesting.....


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## Jerm

Philsuma said:


> Hmmmm....I do NOT think those are _Osteopilus septentrionalis_ Larvae.
> 
> _Osteopilus septentrionalis_ Tadpoles have a rounded body. They are black above, the fleshy part of the wide-finned tail is gray-brown. The fin has scattered dark flecking.
> 
> And the reddish eyes don't seem to match either. Raise a few and see what morphs out..
> 
> interesting.....


I know what you are saying. I think that they are a bit too young to get a definate i.d. right now. Look at this one, it seems a little more developed:


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## roxrgneiss

I'm giving ID by field guide another shot.











This one looks somewhat like a Squirrel Frog (_Hyla squirella_), but the tadpoles don't match pictures I'm using very well... 

I think taking some measurements of the larvae and young metamorphs of all the species will help get an ID.










Now, this one does look like a cuban tf (_Osteopilus septentrionalis_); the placement and color of the eyes and its pattern. Toe pads are a little small yet.

On a side note, it's funny how it was a sure bet they were all cuban tree frogs and needed immediate culling only yesterday.

Hope you find out what they are.

Mike


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## porkchop48

When cuban tree frogs first morph out the have a rusty red color to their eyes. 
I think they are cubans.


http://www.empireoftheturtle.com/Herps/cubans.htm


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## roxrgneiss

I guess I stand corrected... These field guides just aren't comprehensive enough.


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## Jerm

I personally don't think that they are Osteopulus septentrionalis, and im not just saying that because I don't want to destroy them. In seeing them in the daylight this morning, I can see a white band down the side and beginning to show on the upper lip of the more developed froglet, which indicates that they could possible be Hyla cinerea (green tf) or Hyla squirella (squerrel tf) as someone mentioned earlier. The white showe from under the eye to the top of the front leg, but looks like it might go further as they develope more. Also they are turning green, not brown which doesn't show a lot in the pics, but i can see it. The tads look identical to the Hyla cinerea tads in the identification site that Philsuma posted earlier (Division 4: HYLIDAE--A TUTORIAL AND KEY TO THE ANURAN TADPOLES OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA). I will try to get a pic of the white stripe tonight to show you guys what i mean. I will also measure the tads for size reference. We might be dealing with more than one species here also.


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## porkchop48

Yes get some pics because in my opinion ( which I have been wrong before many times many many times) they are cubans. 



The froglet in your hand is a dead ringer for a newly morphed cuban froglet. Eye color, body shape, color the whole nine yards.


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## Philsuma

Jerm,

Join Field Herp Forum


It's as easy to register/join/navigate as Dendroboard.

While this board is more suited to Hobbyists (obviously), _*Field herp Forum*_ attracts both Hobbyists and academics...especially from Florida.

If you post those pics, I guarentee you will receive a correct I.D within a few hours.

I have seen several variations of Cuban Tree frogs....color, size ect. They tend to have a diverse appearence, especially with age and location.

Phil


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## Jerm

Ok, so I am wrong. Looks like the worst case scenario. I posted to the field herp forum and got Osteopilus septentrionalis. Also, while i was trying to get a shot of the white that i was talking about earlier, I noticed the banding starting to come in on the legs pretty much proving that they are Cubans. Looks like we won't be releasing them into the wild after all. I have already contacted a couple of pet shops that i used to work for in Kansas and they said that if I morph some out they will take them, but im sure they don't have room for all of them. Anyone need any? Check out these pics that I just took trying to get a shot of the white stripe. You can see it, but the banding on the legs is obvious.


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## Philsuma

I read your Field Herp forum post. Two of those I.D's came from Florida Biologists and KW is an expert with Amphibians in Florida, so it's pretty conclusive.

I know, sucks.....but you have to still do the right thing.Don't give them away, especially to a pet store in Kansas. 

I actually like the one suggestion fo humane removal mentioned earlier. Put the tads in a shallow pan in the yard for the birds to remove.

Just don't give them to other people in other places....

Hard to say "the little greenhouse frog is ok but the Cuban treefrog is the devil"....but the fact is, the Cuban is far more destructive.

Good luck,

Phil


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## dwdragon

I do not know much about Cuban Tree Frogs and will do a little research but if my guess is correct you COULD give them out to people who live where they would not be able to survive the climate. Like I said I'm going to look it up really quick but my guess would be that a Cuban Tree Frog wouldn't have a hope of a snowball in hell up here as the only frogs that can survive up here go into hybernation of a sorts for 7 - 8 months of the year.

Also our relative humidity is on average 30% or less. Just a thought for saving a few of the little buggers it's not their fault they are considered a "pest".


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## andyoconnor83

put them in a shallow bowl and let birds and ribbon and garter snakes, water snakes, or anything else take care of them.


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## basshummper

time to go bass fishing!


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## Rain_Frog

What about shipping them wholesale to herp dealers up north? Cubans make good pets, I hear.


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## Nick_

basshummper said:


> time to go bass fishing!


The perfect solution! Find out when the next bass tourny is, and bring the tads/frogs there in coolers for .20 ea, then donate the proceeds to the boards......; ) Honestly, empathy is a major catch 22 for most people that may give temporary comfort but never ending complication at the same time.


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## Nick_

If you find my posts to be offensive, feel free to contact me and discuss the issue and gain either insight or at least a bearing to my perspective. Invasive sp. are such for a very good reason, and short of senslessly murdering them it makes sense to put them to some sort of use. Supplying them as pets to other areas lends a high likleyhood of them becoming established in those areas thus furthering the problem by being empathetic insted of decisive and dealing with the guilt. No right or wrong in it at all, simply a take. I think the best solution would be one that elimantes the invasives while at the same time making some sort of use of them. Perhaps donate them to the locall Community college and high school under the pretense that they will not be released under any circumstances.


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## Ed

Using an invasive species as fish bait is non-ideal as long as the animals are alive (provided that they are free of chytrid). If you were using dead tadpoles that would be okay. When using live animals there is a chance of escape and colonization of a new habitat. 

Ed


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## bobberly1

I second stemcellular, sell them off on kingnsnake.com as feeders or cheap pets. You'll make a little money and not feel like a horrible person.


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## dwdragon

I've thought about this for a bit. If you haven't already disposed of them what about everyone getting together and checking with local pet stores etc and seeing how many of them we can displace into the pet trade. Shipping costs a definite of course and hopefully some compensation for your time to collect them.

The only part of this that may be really bad is if they have chytrid I'm not sure if you tossed them all in a tub or other container and took a pool of samples just from there if that would be enough to figure out if they had it or not. We don't want to encourage the spread of something like that tho.

Maybe even some sort of quick donation type thing possibly to get them tested first? I know I'd chip in I'd prefer to see them put to a use rather than just killed.


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## Nick_

Ed said:


> Using an invasive species as fish bait is non-ideal as long as the animals are alive (provided that they are free of chytrid). If you were using dead tadpoles that would be okay. When using live animals there is a chance of escape and colonization of a new habitat.
> 
> Ed


 I re-read my suggestion of the bait sale and realise that my tone did not ring through well, but that was a joke for the most part. I completley agree with them being able to recolonize, that is why I had disagreed with selling them as pets as dwdragon has suggested. As with most invasive sp. there is simply not any way (that is in place) to keep them from spreading by relocating them.


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## Ed

Hi Nicholas,

I hadn't checked the thread for awhile and would have posted this when the first bait suggestion came up if I had seen it. It wasn't really aimed at you but the idea of using them for bait at all when alive. 
A lot of folks don't realize the impact the live bait industry has had on amphibians with the use of items like tadpoles, and water dogs (larval tiger salamanders) as bait. The salamander issue is very troubling as they have been shown to transmit disease (viruses), are hybridizing with native subspecies or species or flat out outcompeting them. Some caudates are resistant to chytrid and thus can form the ideal carriers not only allowing it to be introduced into an area but potentially provided with a stable host to allow it to continually reinfect the area. 

Ed


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## markpulawski

There are a zillion non native Cuban tree frogs in Florida, now outcompeting the native green tree frogs for food. The same with brown Cuban Anole, destoying them is best for all. Throw them out in the grass and let the birds eat them, some will get away but please don't ship them off to infect some other area they may be able to survive in.


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## Nick_

Ed said:


> Hi Nicholas,
> 
> I hadn't checked the thread for awhile and would have posted this when the first bait suggestion came up if I had seen it. It wasn't really aimed at you but the idea of using them for bait at all when alive.
> A lot of folks don't realize the impact the live bait industry has had on amphibians with the use of items like tadpoles, and water dogs (larval tiger salamanders) as bait. The salamander issue is very troubling as they have been shown to transmit disease (viruses), are hybridizing with native subspecies or species or flat out outcompeting them. Some caudates are resistant to chytrid and thus can form the ideal carriers not only allowing it to be introduced into an area but potentially provided with a stable host to allow it to continually reinfect the area.
> 
> Ed


 I had no idea, thanks for the info. I was retourting mainly due to someone giving me a negative point for my op (some people...lol). I hope he finds a way to get rid of them. Aren't there any laws in Florida about catching invasive sp. and not destroying them (or at least not releasing them)?


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## Jerm

Not to start any contraversy, but I wanted to update on here. I shipped a bunch of them to people up north where they can't survive if they escape and they are being tested for chytrid before they will be sold. I understand both sides of this and my main goals were to refrain from killing them and remove them from this region. I know that many people disagree with what i did and would have handled it differently, but that was my choice. I respect your opinions and am not saying that they are wrong. I did contact the Florida Fisha and Wildlife dept. and discussed what I wanted to do with them before I did it, and they had no regulations in place on tadpoles or invasive frogs from what I understood, so maybe we could work to change that.


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## Nick_

Jerm said:


> Not to start any contraversy, but I wanted to update on here. I shipped a bunch of them to people up north where they can't survive if they escape


What did you do wiht the rest of them?


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## Jerm

Nicholas OConnor said:


> What did you do wiht the rest of them?


I got as many as I could find, a couple hundred, it is a very large pool. If there were any left they either froze whey we had a cold spell shortly after that, or they were killed when the owner shocked the pool to clean it out.


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## frogparty

I know killing animals is a stab in the heart, but it needs to be done sometimes. I kill just about every bull frog I find up here in washington state because they eat everything. Native amphibians, fish, turtles, birds ( yes I watched one eat a baby duck) and having them around just bothers me to no end when you know what they are doing to ecosystems that are in enough trouble already. Selling some was great and hopefully it was worth your time, but IMO it's just better to take care of it asap as long as you are 100 percent sure you have identified them correctly. I used to have a fairly diverse salamander population on the farm where I live and no bull frogs, but as soon as the bfs moved in I haven't seen one single salamander in 2 years. And I know the bfs are the culprits. We are all organic no pesticides no fertilizers. You may not feel like you can ever get rid of them all, but every little bit helps


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## dom

cubans tree frogs are taking over orlando and florida as well.. it seems i see more and more every year.. and less of our native species its a sad sad thing


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## thedude

frogparty im with you on that one. the golf course by my house has a huge pond with bullfrogs and i always go down and kill as many as i can and smash the eggs. the big problem is northern red legged frogs(endangered) breed by there and the bull frogs eat them. but now ive noticed a HUGE dent in the bullfrog population at this pond, and a big increase in red legged frogs  so every little bit does help. this spring and summer i plan on catching them, freezing them, and putting an ad on craigslist to see if i can sell any to people that want to eat them/feed them to something. then ill donate whatever i make to amphibianark. 

i would have destroyed the cuban tree frogs but atleast you sent them north where they cant survive. sometimes though, you just have to think about whats more important...a bunch of invasive frogs? or an entire ecosystem, including the native frogs? especially in florida because they have the everglades, and there is just too much biodiversity there to lose. so it figures that florida has so many invasives, like spectacled caimens, burmese pythons, green iguanas and cuban treefrogs. im sure i missed some. and its too bad that the department of wildlife doesnt seem to care.


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## frogparty

I used to catch red legged frogs all the time at the golf course I used to live on. I see so few of them anymore, it's really sad. I used to bring the big ones(bull frogs) to my neighbor who would eat them, but nowadays I just leave them for the raccoons, possums and herons to find. The great part about nature is that nothing goes to waste. The thing with the fish and wildlife depts, if florida's is anything like washingtons where I just finished up a job working as a salmon counter, is that they are very under funded and under staffed. And since most of the jobs are species specific, many employees are probably under educated about a lot of these invasives, if that isn't what their specific job entails. Let's all just hope that Obama sends some more money out to these kind of departments so that there can be an invasive species task force that can handle these problems efficiently. But until then, you are right every little bit helps. Especially getting rid of their eggs. Good way to wipe a whole bunch out at once and make sure their tads don't start the massacre while everything else hasn't even got a chance to morph out and escape away from the rearing ponds.


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## thedude

hey did you live off 522 in echo falls golf course? 

ya there are a lot of things we should hope happens with new office. its too bad they are under funded. the past year i have been killing bullfrogs i have just left them in the woods for things to eat, but if i can get money for amphibian conservation that seems like a better cause.


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## frogparty

No, long ago I used to live in sunland golf course in Sequim, and have worked at shuksan golf course in bellingham. We used to have mass migrations of rough skinned newts into the ponds in Sequim. You could see hundreds crossing the road at night in the spring. There were also lots of tree frogs, alligator lizards 3 kinds of garter snakes, northwestern salamanders and the occasional toad along with the red legged frogs and the VERY rare rubber boa. Haven't been there in a long time... wonder how much has changed


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## Lucky

I live in Fl, and had the same problem with a house a rented years ago, the pool had not been tended to for a long time and was full of tad poles, turned out they were just Bufo terrestris, so I made a ramp to they could get out of the pool and I waited for them to morph out before I shocked the pool and got it running again. If they would have been invasive I would not have waited, I would have dumped enough chlorine in there to kill them all, that's just me though, You did what you thought was right and did not just let them out into the wild to cause more damage, I just wanted to share my exp. and say that I commend you on what you accomplished.


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## thedude

oh that would be awesome to see some rubber boas! they are my favorite snake...so docile too.

i feel the same way lucky.


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## frogparty

Ya you don't see too many of them. We are super lucky to have so many neat herps in washington. One of my favs are the pacific giant salamanders


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## earthfrog

Put some large fish in to thin them out.


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## thedude

ya thats a good idea. you could put large mouth bass in. you could do that in a lot of places as long as they themselves cant get introduced. obviously in a pool that wouldnt be a problem.

ive seen 1 pacific giant salamander and it SCRAPED the skin off the top of my hand. so much worse than a bite from a lizard or snake! but ya washington is great for that. especially since we have the cascades to seperate/create such amazing biodiversity.


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## frogparty

I have been bitten by the giant salamander on a few occasions-sucks. They bark too, its neat. Largemouth bass are NOT NATIVE TO WASHINGTON and along with smallmouth bass can pose serious problems and be almost as bad as bullfrogs. Theyeat everything and outcompete native fish. Also spinyrayed fish(bass bluegill etc) can be transferred from pond to pond when their eggs stick to the feet of ducks which then fly to other ponds thereby introducing them to a new system. In florida where the bass are native(along with bullfrogs I think) its not a big deal. But introducing one thing to remove another is usually a BAD IDEA Look at what happened in australiawith bufo marinus, or the mongooses in hawaii


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## Nick_

frogparty said:


> I have been bitten by the giant salamander on a few occasions-sucks. They bark too, its neat. Largemouth bass are NOT NATIVE TO WASHINGTON and along with smallmouth bass can pose serious problems and be almost as bad as bullfrogs. Theyeat everything and outcompete native fish. Also spinyrayed fish(bass bluegill etc) can be transferred from pond to pond when their eggs stick to the feet of ducks which then fly to other ponds thereby introducing them to a new system. In florida where the bass are native(along with bullfrogs I think) its not a big deal. But introducing one thing to remove another is usually a BAD IDEA Look at what happened in australiawith bufo marinus, or the mongooses in hawaii



I agree. A small dose of common sense dictates that using animals to combat invasives is best left to organizations formed specifically to do so. I do realise there are simply ill thought out posts in the thread (some of mine among them as usuall...lol), and not the core beliefs embeded in the members souls...but some of the suggestions put fourth could result in consequenses that are not easily corrected if at all. Even with years of studies and research, there is no answer (in many many cases) other than erradication by physical means to invasive species all over the world, not just on our side of the pond. Being empathetic towards a creature is understandable, but in these type of cases empathy is not just inhibitive...it can be detrimental if not whieghed with possible ramifications. I relate this train of thought to the medical field. In my intern and externships I watched doctors and/or teams make some gut wrenching decisions about patients, situations that had no good outcome and would cause pain in the lives of many but needed to be dealt with in order to save someone. In afew of these cases it was literally deciding which person should live due to lack of resouces and watching the news being broken to the families involved. In this way it relates to making a decision that will affect not just one person or animal, but a group of them...or an entire ecosystem. There is no nice ending, and the decision itself may be 'wrong' in retrospect to win win situations, but it must be made in order to contribute to 'the greater good'. Doing the best thing is not always doing the right thing in respect to morals and or our own consciences. 
Rant mode disengaged, we will now return you to your scheduled thread wandering.


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## dancegypsy

I'm new to this board, having learned about it when Repticon was here in the Atlanta area earlier this month. This thread, in particular, caught my attention.

I'm guessing that most of you are very knowledgeable when it comes to tropical and exotic frog species, but this thread was right up my alley. Not that I am any sort of authority, but it's native species (SE USA) I'm most interested in. I have been devouring every piece of information I've been able to find since last July when I made the wonderful mistake of trying to save a batch of native species treefrogs from my swimming pool cover as it was being drained to open the pool for the summer. I'm certain the Field Herp Forum has been the definitive source of info for this thread, but I'd like to share a little from my personal experience.

I set up a protected pool for roughly 25 tadpoles in July, thinking they would metamorphose into frogs and self-release within weeks. Then, I set about trying to find out how to take care of them. Although some did morph and leave before I had to bring them indoors, I never dreamed it would be January before I'd see my last tadpole finally leave the transition tank or that I'd still be housing and raising food for eleven other, much older, frogsters. It's been an adventure.

In the beginning, I just assumed my tadpoles were Cope's Grays (Hyla chrysoscelis) because that is the frog I was familiar with seeing in my backyard. I didn't know they were called Cope's Gray Treefrogs or that it was visually almost impossible to tell them from Eastern Grays (H. versicolor) until I started reading. I only know them apart by their call, with which I was extremely familiar. TOO familiar. It never occurred to me I could have an assortment of species, but apparently that is exactly what I have. Which is where this thread comes in.

My Copes Gray Treefrogs are green, as froglets. They will change color, even when tiny, according to the temperature and their background, but they're basically shades of green. I've since learned that many native species treefrogs in this part of the US don't really show their adult colors until they are many months into being a frog. I would be stunned if the tadpoles in the swimming pool mentioned were ALL Cubans.

Tadpole ID sites, such as those listed in this thread, were helpful in explaining to me why the tiniest tads were morphing out weeks, even months, before other much larger tads. I'm fairly certain now I have at least three Spring Peepers. The medium sized tadpoles could turn out to be Cope's/Eastern or even Squirrel or Green Treefrogs. And, I still don't know why there was such a difference in size between my medium sized tads and the huge ones, as the froglets looked about the same in coloration. As tadpoles, they were distinctly different. What I'm getting at is that as I read through this thread, no one seems to point out that it's highly likely there were all sorts of frog species in the pool. 

With the decimation of so many native species treefrogs (especially due to the Cuban population in FL), it could have been a tremendous boost to their numbers if the native species tads could have been raised in protection and released in the same vicinity when grown. It might have made a GREAT school project, to enlist a few students to try to group them according to visual differences and then raise the ones we want to promote and ship the others off to breeders in the north. Entire classes of students could have learned about chytrid and invasive species. 

I've read -- considering all the factors that wipe them out -- that of 200 frog eggs, approximately 20 will live to become froglets and then of those 20, one makes it to maturity. Hand-raising 25 and only having four deaths blows those odds completely out of the water. If a crew of highschool kids took on a task like that, with a dedicated mentor... just think what we could do.

I like to write and I like frogs. What can I say?


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## frogparty

Like a frog hatchery? This is the idea behind salmon hatcheries, where we can get better germination and initial survival than in the wild. Some would say that these animals aern't as well adapted to life and have been coddled while others would argue that more is always better. If you were taking wild eggs and raising them,there would always be fresh genetic material, but if you were releasing batch after batch of eggs from limited gene stock some would argue that you would deplete the genetics after a while. Also, frogs are an important part of the food chain from egg on up, and depriving the ecosystem of them could have serious reprocussions. I use to raise frog eggs all the time to morph out and then release them, and found it very satisfying. But, if you went to all the trouble to raise those animals to morph out and positive id, would you have the heart to euthanize them if they were al invasive?


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## earthfrog

I would guess, then, that it would be wise to introduce fish whose eggs aren't transported via duck feet, frog feet or anything else, and consequently go fishing in your pond after your tadpole count was down. Invite your friends and have a massive fish fry.


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## hyla23

why don't you either leave there and let them morph out of just collect all of them and put them in a local pond this happens to me every year and I just put them in a local pond.


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