# New "giant" pumilio



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Not that I doubt Marcus AT ALL but I am curious how these were quickly dubbed "pumilio" despite the enormous size difference. Those suckers dwarf the solarte. 

Thoughts?


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Personally, I was skeptical too (also with them being from a montane region). I'm going to measure some Blue Jeans in May when I go to La Selva in Costa Rica (where I believe the holotype came from). In talking with another pumilio researcher, he said that Blue Jeans can get up to 24mm, so the size could be within pumilio range. It's the montane comment that makes me more skeptical than anything. Pumilio are lowland darts.

Montane species include speciosus, which is more inland of pumilio in Panama, but still is "around" the range of pumilio. While they're orange, it wouldn't surprise me if they had morphs too, and IF this was speciosus, they should be put into experienced hands and the location of them should be released to the scientific community for protection since speciosus is likely extinct or close to extinction in the wild. The only thing I don't know is SVL range for speciosus.


----------



## jmcc000 (Apr 7, 2005)

These dont look to be any bigger than BriBri. If i compare my bribri to my Solarte they would also dwarf them.


----------



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Years ago.. and I mean years ago I saw a single speciosus at the NAIB. Now its been about 10 years but I remember it being a good size frog way bigger then any of the pumilio they had kicking around. According to what I saw from fumbling around the web speciosus is 24-30mm witch puts it a ]little bigger then these pumilio.
Brian


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

jmcc000 said:


> These dont look to be any bigger than BriBri. If i compare my bribri to my Solarte they would also dwarf them.


You are the second person to say this. I hear BJ has some huge Bri Bri. My Bri Bri are large...but not that large. I have them right above my Solarte and no way there is that size difference.

What I was indirectly getting at was the possibility of another species such as speciosus as pointed out. Just thought it may make for some interesting exploration as it would be great to discover a population of one of the more rare species which (hopefully) could be protected by one of the programs running amongst the community.


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that it'd really take getting a couple of toe clips from these specimens and getting them analyzed (if they were sent to me, I'd probably have the capabilities to compare them to speciosus already in GenBANK; I would have to verify by my prof, but I think I could do that). I think that that would the best option for figuring out if it's pumilio or not.

I'd just hate to see them fall into hands of inexperienced breeders if they ARE a rare species. I'd also like to know the elevation from which they were found.

One thing that perhaps SNDF could verify, is that, personally, that solarte pictured next to them looks like an immature (the rostrum length doesn't seem long enough). Maybe it's just the angle of the frog.


----------



## jmcc000 (Apr 7, 2005)

Chris, i was already in the frog room so i snapped a pic  . Thats an adult female Solarte with and adult female BriBri. Maybe my BriBri are just huge.
Either way on the new ones id love to know as much about them as i can. Ill get in touch with Marcus and see if he can give me more info or if he has time to stop by this thread.
Edit forgot the pic


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

WOW Jason....

I have four Bri Bri and I am sure none are that big! (nor fat!) 8) 
I understand the need to keep locale info on the downlow....but I definitely think it would be safe with JP and beneficial to his research.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Seriously guys Speciousis gee wonder what they would sell for? $185, no I don't think so. Perhaps genetically we may be surprised but i doubt it, cooler temps larger morph to me a logical progression. I doubt Marcus would risk all he has built by allowing an import of questionable nature to pass through his business.....but it is good to see the farm rotating it's crops.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Mark,

I tried to be clear I was not putting Marcus to question at all. 

I have some of the same questions around Escudo which are smaller and have completely different calls than the rest of my pumilio. I have seen "green jeans pumilio" in a Costa Rican "ranarium" which were clearly not pumilio at all but granuliferous. So we are all still learning about these animals and when a "new population" is found I think it definitely warrants some curiosity and study.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Sorry Chris did not mean to question your intent, i was mostly commenting on Speciousis being thrown out. As I mentioned we may find like the Escudos when genetic research is done they may be reclassified but for now I am sure the classification of what they are is correct. 
I can see however when someone hears highland and larger Speciousis leaps to mind and it would be nice to see them eventually show up. I for one am very happy to see a new morph of something show up here in the US, brought in legally.


Maybe they will be .....Panamanian Histrionicus!


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Hah!

Imagine the uproar!


----------



## uncle tom (Mar 15, 2007)

Hi Folks
Last year when I did my research in O. pumilio on the Bocas I heared about this big frogs. They schould be come from mountains near the panamanian boarder. The size of the animals was told me with 27 mm. So first I thought it could be speciosa but in fact it is nothing than a normal Bribri. I went to the locality which was near Puerto Viejo and the altitude that was told me as "very high, you can see the ocean" was in fact 75 m asl! and yes you could see the carribean sea because it was only 400 m as the crow flies. And ist was not in the mountains but in the hills around Puerto Viejo near the radio tower. The frogs are in fact very big. I measured some frogs at this place and also near Cahuita in the Hills near the Fila Carbón. The SVl are 24 to 25 mm but when I compared this with the normal Bribri-Morph (23,5 to 24 mm) than it is not really a hint for another specie or another morph. Also my call comparison don't indicate any sigificant differences to the normal O. pumilio from Bribri and at last genetic analysis of this frogs shown no differences to the normal Bribri Morph whitch is 100% a real pumilio (look also the paper of our group from Hagemann & Pröhl 2007 wich idicates a paraphyly in the pumilio group but shows that Bribris are O. pumilio like the most populations from Bocas).
Greetings from Germany 
Thomas Ostrowski (AG Heike Pröhl University f Hannover)


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

There is some debate that the montane pumilio started seperating from the true pumilio(as they are a loland specie) but speciosus was thought to be hiland and many morphs have been found below 1000ft. They very well could be the same species w/ size differences because of temps. I`m going to try and get some samples to Ian for analysis, reminds me he had info he has on the escudo I forgot to get, but toe clippings before they breed isn`t happening. I`m sending him a granny spindly froglet w/ his cauchero next week. Until further analysis is done we won`t know. I hate to say it but hope for a spindly froglet or 2 if I can get some breeding for me. More in debate is how to get them breeding as they are a montane morph, which may only call and breed during a wetter colder season. They may need cycling and an off season. Whatever species they are they will be different and not like regular pumilio to breed just by microhabitat. What`s needed now is more climate data from the El Dorado region so we can deduce a program.


----------



## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> What`s needed now is more climate data from the El Dorado region so we can deduce a program.


That there is a problem. Unless El Dorado is a tiny village not on my map, there is no El Dorado in the area that Tom was describing. The way Marcus introduced it, it seemed like it was color description rather than a locale name. If this morph and the morph Tom saw are one in the same, then I believe that they're the Las Delicias morph on Tropical Experience (since Las Delicias is right on the Panamanian border across from Bri Bri). With this El Dorado name, I wouldn't have a clue where to look to find these frogs to get microhabitat and microclimate data.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m sure whatever montane data in the region there is would be an iddea of extremes? Obviously rainfall would vary on the side of the mountain but general seasonal temp data would help or a description of general climate for the regions differences from loland to upland.


----------



## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

El Dorado was the lost city of gold, its myth. they use El Dorado because the pumilio is golden. thats why in the sell list it says El Dorado (golden) Pumilio. you wont find it on no map. i was on the phone with them and we were talking about were they came from, however none of this info stayed in my head and what did i dont know if they will release to every one or not so im not saying anything.
-JC
i wish there was a El Dorado city though that be cool to see


----------



## Matt Mirabello (Aug 29, 2004)

Jungle_John said:


> El Dorado was the lost city of gold, its myth


Not entirely a myth:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rado.shtml

(not trying to Hijack this thread)


----------



## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

so who hear plans on getting some of the new golden pumilios?


----------



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

A little pricey for me, I think I need my economic stimulus check.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Just a comment that out of the pumilio I have seen the bri bri seem to be the largest...


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> I don't know much about the el dorados. I would conjecture that they're closely related to the Bri-Bri/Puerto Viejo pumilio, which are similar in size (from my observations) and the golden color probably comes from a reduction in pigmentation (which may have occurred by chance or as a result of adaptation to higher altitude environments) - but that's just totally me guessing about it. If I have some tissue I could probably figure out roughly their relationship to other pumilio - or I could go check it out next time I'm down there if locality data become available. I've spent a fair amount of time now in the hills bordering the BdT islands and it's a very interesting transition region between lowland and montane habitats (most of the really high altitude areas are on the Costa Rican side, but there's still a fair amount of variation in Panama). I bet if someone could spend a year out there, they'd find a lot more.
> Ian Wang


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes these guys are way up there with BriBri, and no, "El Dorado" is not a locality name... ever consider the fact that they were trying to hide the locality so the locality wouldn't attract smugglers?

These frogs need to get into experienced breeders' hands whether or not they are pumilio or speciosus!! And honestly... trying to ID a frog based on the small snapshot of what we have of these guys... haven't we gotten into that debate already a number of times? I'm sure some genetic work can be done on them if some nice reputable scientists were interested and got in contact with Marcus... but the last thing we need is the locality being spilled and having the possibility of this (so far) pristine population getting wasted by smugglers looking for the latest and greatest like they've been doing with other parts of panama (red vicenti anyone?).


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> ... trying to ID a frog based on the small snapshot of what we have of these guys... haven't we gotten into that debate already a number of times?




thats what im sayin. But its good to talk it out. Just people shouldnt take it to serious.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> These frogs need to get into experienced breeders' hands whether or not they are pumilio or speciosus!! And honestly... trying to ID a frog based on the small snapshot of what we have of these guys... haven't we gotten into that debate already a number of times? I'm sure some genetic work can be done on them if some nice reputable scientists were interested and got in contact with Marcus... but the last thing we need is the locality being spilled and having the possibility of this (so far) pristine population getting wasted by smugglers looking for the latest and greatest like they've been doing with other parts of panama (red vicenti anyone?).


That was a quote from the reputable scientist who did the escudo genetics testing and is working in the area and yes, hopefully I`ll get a tailclip from a tad to him. He said it was just guessing from an experince of working genetically w/ such pumilio, speciosus etc. and the area of n panama they were collected from. I mean mountain pumilio from panama theres only a certain region they can come from correct? And no one`s leaking where they are from since no one but SNDF knows. AS far as I know they have stated they are a mt. morph from n panama?


----------



## MartyA (Apr 18, 2006)

Since smuggling was brought up,

I know of another legal importation of mis identified amphibians and according to what ive gathered they are now technically illegal. I find it interesting though, a frog as rare as speciosus could accidently be imported and released to the hobby and few people seem to have any problem with it. I wonder if there are any yellow lehmanii and leucomelas populations that border Colombia and Venezuela...


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That's probably because few people even know about speciosus, and the fact that the few pics out there are easily mistaken for BriBri pums (especially since pics don't convey size). A lehmanni is a pretty distinct frogs... tons of photos floating around of them... they've been imported a lot in the past and have a mystique going that the speciosus never got to develop. Lehmanni has an incredibly small range and not particularly close to the leuc range if I remember correctly... there was no misIDs there that's for sure (except as histos). The yellow lehmanni are at the bottom of the mountain, and they turn orange, then to red as you get higher.

Plenty of amphibians get brought in under misIDs, but it's only the really spectacular ones that people know about in decent amount that really get the attention (like atelopus and lehmanni).


----------



## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

well i got my frogs in today. they are large but i think there the same size as my basti.. might just be me because i havnt seen many pumilios in person but i would say there only slightly larger. :roll: 

they are very pretty and out going though. ill post photos when i get more time and the settle down abit.


----------

