# New Product Feedback Request TADPOLE DIET



## Allen Repashy

Hey Everyone,

Since dialing in the SuperFly with the help of all the feedback received here, I have put my efforts into some more products. Now I am back to one that I think has relevance back on these forums, so I thought I would open another thread like I did with the SuperFly to again reach out to the community here for feedback. 

I have been working on this on and off for a couple years now and have finally sourced out the ingredients I have been looking for in good supply, and am ready to dial it in.

This will be my first entry into the aquatic market and the product will be an *Algae Eater/ Tadpole diet*. It is a no expense spared formula (meaning expensive) that uses Chlorella Algae as its first ingredient and Spirulina as number two.

I would love to label it as just a tadpole diet, but I don't know if there is really commercial viability in doing so...... It has much more potential being marketed towards African Rift Cichlids or Plecostomus, so might end up with one of those on the label for this reason  We will see.

Unlike any other diets on the market, this one has a twist. It can be fed two ways..... as a fine powder, or as a gel.

For those of you familiar with my Bug Burger and Hydro-Load products, this will be the same kind of gel. Very simple to make. Just mix one part powder to two parts water.... microwave for two minutes, and it will cool at room temp to make a firm gel. This gel can be kept refrigerated for a few months once made, so one batch should get you through a full tadpole lifecycle.

The formation of a gel does several important things. First, it is very slow to break down in the water (24 hours) so it does a lot to prevent water fouling. Because of this, it provides a constant source of grazing material, not unlike the availability of naturally growing surface algae. 

The gel also locks in the nutrients and prevents them from near instantly dissolving into the water the way water soluble vitamins do as soon as a flake foods hits the water.

I have extensively tested this with all kinds of freshwater tropical fish and tree frog tadpoles for growth, development, and overall health with great success. I have NOT tested it much with dendros, so I need some feedback from those willing to give it a go.

I would like feedback on all species of tadpoles, and fish you might be keeping.

Many tadpoles are general grazers, but some are specialized surface feeders..... so it will be interesting to see what species will eat the gel.... or require it in the powdered form..... or don't eat it at all. 

As a powdered diet, it could be used in a similar way to Sera Micron and just sprinkled on the surface of the water.

Of course, development, growth, and morphing are all things I need to hear about when it comes to tads.

Right now, the formulated analysis is at 43% protein, 7% Fat. It of course contains ample amounts of SuperPig for carotenoids and uses SuperVite as the vitamin premix. And unlike nearly all commercial fish feed, it is Gluten Free!

Here is a preliminary list of ingredients in there order of occurrence. 

Chlorella Algae, Spirulina Algae,Whole Krill Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Whole Squid Meal, Germinated Brown Rice Protein Isolate, Pea Protein Isolate, Dried Brewers Yeast, Dried Whole Egg, Stabilized Rice Bran, Potato Granules, Dried Kelp, Carrageenan, Konjac, Carob Bean Gum, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalicium Phosphate, Potassium Citrate, Calcium Propionate, Phaffia rhodozyma yeast, Paprika Extract, Calendula Flower Powder, Marigold Flower Extract, Rose Hips Powder, Turmeric Root Powder, Malic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Canthaxanthin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Gluconate, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

I will be sending this out in unlabeled bags so that I can finalize labeling based on feedback.

I also need a good tadpole photo if anyone wants to send me something.

I will mix up a batch next week and get stuff out as soon as I can. 

I would like now to get some preliminary feedback on how many people have tads in the water and would like to be part of this products development. Please do NOT ask for this if you are not breeding frogs now or raising tadpoles, or have a fish tank.

Also feel free to comment or ask questions on the ingredients or information I have posted here.

*Please also let me know what you are raising and can test it on!
*
Thanks everyone!

Please reply to me in this thread so I can more easily respond vs. individual PM's. PM me if you have some specific questions.

I am going to do it a little differently than the Superfly offer. This will be an "almost free" four ounce sample.

I will requre a paypal payment of ONE DOLLAR.... just to avoid people who want free stuff LOL. This will also give me an easy way to collect shipping information, so make sure your paypal address is correct. I will post the paypal info next week when I get it mixed up and ready to go, so post or subscribe to this thread so you get the message.
Allen


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## ladyfaile15

i would be interested in trying this out  


jamie


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## Colleen53

I am getting quite a few tadpoles and would like to experiment with your products.


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## tclipse

I have tads currently in the water, and am also cycling a 90G planted/FW tropical tank as I write this. I'd be up for giving it a try as well.


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## NathanB

Allen, Im a member of a large cichlid club in the mid-atlantic region. Capital Cichlid Association 
You would get a lot of exposure if they liked it. Ill give it a try


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## WendySHall

Please put me down... I would love to take part in this! I missed out on all the excitement of the Superfly experiments. 

Question: You say this can be fed in powder or gel form, yet your post expounds on the gel form only. Is this how you recommend it be fed to darts? If not and powder is okay, would it work to coat tad bites with?


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## WendySHall

Allen Repashy said:


> As a powdered diet, it could be used in a similar way to Sera Micron and just sprinkled on the surface of the water.


Forget my question...just re-read and found the above. (sorry)


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## johnc

Mainly algae based? Not for dart frogs I think Allen. Other frogs perhaps.


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## tclipse

johnc said:


> Mainly algae based? Not for dart frogs I think Allen. Other frogs perhaps.


Actually John, the 43% protein in this is considerably higher than most of the brands we feed tads with.... i.e.- tad bites (36%), New Life Spectrum pellets (34-36%), and Omega One pellets (also in the mid-30's, can't remember the exact number).


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## johnc

Teddy, I like the sound of that but being an organic chemist, I don't judge the protein by the %, rather the type/source. Plant protein versus Animal protein. Given the conventional wisdom that dart frog tadpole diets should not be mainly algae based, I think we need to be more particular than just lumping everything under the "protein" label.


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## tclipse

johnc said:


> Teddy, I like the sound of that but being an organic chemist, I don't judge the protein by the %, rather the type/source. Plant protein versus Animal protein. Given the conventional wisdom that dart frog tadpole diets should not be mainly algae based, I think we need to be more particular than just lumping everything under the "protein" label.


A valid point, I'll bow out to you on that one (though I guess it brings up another question- how much of the other foods are plant protein vs. animal protein?). At the same time, that conventional wisdom also states that tads should be fed a varied diet, and this still appears to be a solid addition to the rotation.

For the sake of experimentation, I'm willing to try this on a few tads as a stand-alone product, a few with my normal food rotation as a control, and a few with this stuff added into the current rotation. If any from group one don't look like they're doing well, I pull the plug.

edit - I'm most interested to see if adding it into my rotation will change anything, since that's how I would be using it.... always room to improve.


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## Azurel

I would love to try it out ....I have 8 varadero tads and 4 Orange lamasi tads in water now.....Sounds interesting. 

Would also like clarification on the protein source in the product...

James


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## jckee1

I would be interested in trying it on my tads.
Jim


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## johnc

I should add that I would be very interested in trying it, despite my inquiry about the nature of the proteins used. As I said before, the conventional wisdom for dart tads has always been to avoid predominantly algae-based diets, but I would love to prove that wrong.

Dart frogs aside, I think it would be great for other frogs and toads (I don't just keep darts), especially ranids and tree frogs because they rely heavily on algae.


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## eldalote2

I would love to try it with my tinc tadpoles.


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## Paul G

I would be interested in testing it on my Dendrobates and Epipedobates tadpoles.


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## Allen Repashy

johnc said:


> Mainly algae based? Not for dart frogs I think Allen. Other frogs perhaps.


Hi John,

Not to fear, This is just one of ten gel based formulas I a have been working on for a wide variety of applications that range from 15%-45% protein. 

The formula I mentioned here IS algae heavy, but algae represents about 25% of total protein in the formula. 

I have another formula with similar protein levels that is more heavily based on fish, krill, squid, and egg (which is a lot cheaper due to the high cost of algae, though it still contains algae) that you might like, particularly since I recognize you as the Caudata guy and it is the formula Philippe de Vosjoli has been using on his Pleudordeles and Axolotls with great success 

I have carnivore gels, Invertebrate gels (for shrimp, crabs, and crayfish) Hervibore and Omnivore gels...... I have already released the insect gel (bug burger).....but I am getting ahead of myself here.. LOL

Right now, my main concern is acceptance of the gel formula by various species. Adjusting the protein levels and it's sources is the easy part!

I have an awesome pallet of ingredients and truly enjoy the formulation process. 

I think with my ingredients, the gel concept (allowing the exclusion of wheat gluten in my products, which are necessary to make flakes and pellets because is used as the binder, and the willingness to listen to keepers and breeders in formulating, will allow me to produce a revolutionary tropical fish food Line. A lot of people look to the New Life Spectrum products as cutting edge. In fact, I share quite a few opinions with the developer. I have researched that line and read the writings of the owner and think he has done some things very well, but has left much room for improvement in other places. 

Anyways..... my main point is that this formula is just one on the list and you should find something you like on the list, and if you don't, we can work on that 

Cheers, Allen

Anyone know what is up with that company, their website has been down for a while now.


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## zBrinks

I wouldn't mind trying it with some tadpoles I raise communally, in particular reed frogs, Phyllobates sp., and potentially Atelopus tads.


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## hypostatic

johnc said:


> Teddy, I like the sound of that but being an organic chemist, I don't judge the protein by the %, rather the type/source. Plant protein versus Animal protein. Given the conventional wisdom that dart frog tadpole diets should not be mainly algae based, I think we need to be more particular than just lumping everything under the "protein" label.


Being a biologist, I am confused by this statement. As far as I know, animals break down proteins into amino acids and then absorb the amino acids. I think the only issue would be whether Chlorella and Spirulina have all the amino acids that the frogs need, and whether or not it is easily digestible. I could however, see the digestion of the food source being a potential problem -- if dart frog tadpoles can't digest through the cellulose in the algae's cell wall, then they won't be getting to the nutrients inside.


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## JimO

I have had great success with primarily algae-based food in growing auratus and azureus.

Allen, I'd love to try it. I have about 50 auratus tads and several dozen variabilis currently in the water.


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## palmettodarts

Very interested!

We have several tinc tadpoles in the water. 

Would this formula be compatible with red eye tree frogs tads?
If so, we have a large amount of tads in the water right now. 

Let me know


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## johnc

hypostatic said:


> Being a biologist, I am confused by this statement. As far as I know, animals break down proteins into amino acids and then absorb the amino acids. I think the only issue would be whether Chlorella and Spirulina have all the amino acids that the frogs need, and whether or not it is easily digestible. I could however, see the digestion of the food source being a potential problem -- if dart frog tadpoles can't digest through the cellulose in the algae's cell wall, then they won't be getting to the nutrients inside.


Ah yes, but being a chemist I can tell you that the efficiency of breaking down proteins really depends on the individual proteins. Once they are broken down, yes, you have the component amino acids. 

However, the other important issue is whether or not you have the amino acids essential to that animal - that is a concern in all organisms, including us, that we get our essential amino acids from the proteins we digest.

I actually like the sound of Allen's formulations. I hope we get to try them out. And I've got some aquatic salamanders who could use something other than trout/salmon pellets or frog and tadpole bites.


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## poison beauties

Good luck with this product, Glad to see you have multiple combinations of it in the works, Has there been any research done to see if there are variying outcomes of not only yours but other tad feeds between different dendro species? Im not talking about egg fedders but more the ranitomey, tinc, galact and phylobates family's. 

I personally have a few different species breeding as well as hopefully atelopus and gottlebei soon so if I can be of any help let me know.


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## Allen Repashy

WendySHall said:


> Forget my question...just re-read and found the above. (sorry)


Hi Wendy,

I won't be talking too much about it being used in the powdered form because this is really designed to be used as a gel. Feeding as a powder is really just an afterthought so that it could be used with surface feeders that are not as likely to go down and graze in it. The quality ingredients make this every bit as good, and in my opinion better than Sera Micron, which is SUPER expensive and a long time staple diet for feeding fish fry of all kinds. I believe a lot of tad folks use it also.

Allen


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## Tomdarr

I am interested in trying this out.


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## PeanutbuttER

I'll give it a try. I've got plenty of azureus tads with more on the way that would be the benefactors.


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## KeroKero

Some thoughts:

- As part of a line of foods, this sounds awesome. Marketing for use with all tads, particularly detritus eaters like PDFs I think is off base - there are a huge amount of tadpole types out there, and it would take a line of foods just as complex as a line of fish foods to really offer up the needs of every tadpole. I think if you marketed this towards tadpoles that specifically eat/graze algae it's fine, and it would be up to the keeper to figure out what their tadpole's food needs are... but PDF tads are not one of them (and a number of TFs fall into this too).

Feeding tadpoles is not just about how they eat, but what they eat.

- How much spirulina and/or chlorella to use with PDFs has been a debate on and off for over 10 years. It was originally introduced because it was so high in good things, but when PDF tads were fed a diet with a really large amount in it the froglets were smaller. It seems that they should be IN the food, but not the main ingredients. I don't know very many people who actually use Sera Micron for PDFs at this point, and that's a very similar market as this product.

- I really have to agree with JohnC on this one (judge the protein by it's source!), I feed a food just in high in protein as this is listed as, but the sources of protein are more varied (earthworms, zooplankton, artemia, as well as phytoplankton - not just the two listed). The froglets with the mixed medley do better, and morph larger. Ideally for me working with PDF tads, I'd like a food like the flakes I currently work with that could be made into a gel - I could just make a tray and slice up cubes as needed. While a bit of a pain for individually raised PDFs (how small would those cubes have to be??? I wonder if there is a dicer that would work...), I can't even begin to explain how much I'd love this for some communal tadpoles from large clutches... but this specific formula would only be useful as a supplement, not the main diet. I'd probably stick to some of the home made gels recommended by some of the cichlid keepers that has similar diet needs as the tadpoles I'm currently working with, but use this for algae grazers.

I also make sure my tads have leaves to graze on - this means they get a nice slime (not algae) to munch on as well as leaf "meat" when the leaf has softened enough (Epipedobates in particular do well with this). I don't know how you'd get that into a food, but it's something to keep in mind with detritus eaters - they tend to not get a lot of algae, instead getting a lot of diatoms and general rotting stuff like leaf litter and what not. Can you morph many treefrogs and PDFs with an algae based diet? Yes. Would they be as large and healthy as they could be? No - this has already been seen in the past, and is the basis of the "conventional wisdom" mentioned by JohnC.


Some questions:

- Besides being able to be made into a gel, what really makes this different or an improvement for Sera Micron? More specifically:
~ Does it stay suspended in the water column well as a powder, making it handy for filter feeders that feed in the water column? A powder that stays on the surface and then sinks, or just straight up sinks isn't particularly helpful with filter feeding tadpoles (some feed off the surface but many don't), and I know Ranitomeya seem to ignore powdered foods it until it sinks, while other PDF tads learn to graze it off the surface of the water (I grind my flakes to provide an even mix of flakes since it's a medley). The single most important thing about Sera Micron is it's ability to stay suspended in the water column for a decent period of time, and if this in powder form does not to that, then I'm sticking to Sera Micron and flakes.
~ Are there significant nutritional differences? You hinted at a lack of gluten, but I'm hoping you can do a more in depth comparison. I know you bring a lot of other nutrients to the table (which is why I like your supplements) but it would help if we knew the significance in what is in the ingredient lists.

- I like the idea of spreading the gel on rocks/petri dishes/etc. and letting it set to use for some grazers who only like a very THIN layer to graze on. Sera Micron has been challenging to use for this (tends to clump, fall off, and/or foul water), and the gel part intrigues me. How well does this work when spread on surfaces? Will it continue to stick to clean generic rocks/slate/glass/plastic/clay/fiberglass when submerged?

- If fed as a powder, will it start turning into a gel? I'm just thinking of when I make jello, and the powder expanded when it hit water. This would make it more challenging to feed out as a powder, and I'd like as little water in the food as possible. I like versatile foods.

- You stated that this was tested on tree frog tadpoles - which ones? Did you raise part of the clutches on other popular foods for those species to compare in size and vigor? I'm a bit skeptical about this part, as I know some species would do fine on this, and other species that are raised primarily on stuff like blackworms that would NOT do fine on this. It's much like PDFs - sure you can get them out of the water, but if you can raise a froglet from the same clutch under the same conditions but feed it a different food and it comes out larger, then you shouldn't be marketing it for those.


Even if I only can really use this as an algae food gel, it's still a nice sounding product when used with the right critters


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## JeremyHuff

Allen,
I'd like to try this. I have a couple hundred tads to test it on. 
J


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## ghettopieninja

this could be quite beneficial to those of us attempting to breed Atelopus, as stricktly algae/diatom feeders options for captive larvae have been limited to sera micron powder and culturing your own algae and diatoms. This has been one of the largest hurdles in successful captive reproduction/management of this group.


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## Allen Repashy

Kero,

Most of the questions you are asking are the reason I am here asking for feedback and not questions I have answeres to. Especially as to how it works as a powder because I did not design it for this purpose, though had good luck feeding it this way to groups of Phyllomedusa sauvagii. 

Primary species tested on was Litoria caerulea, and as I pointed out, I have come here to get feedback on its use for various dart frog species because I have had no detailed feedback on this application. I raised tens of thousands of Litoria from spawn after spawn, over two years..... I broke the spawns up into a control group (the standard pellet used at Sandfire) and 2-3 other groups that were each fed different formulas that had different levels of protein, fat, type of protein....levels of vitamins.. whatever I wanted to compare..... I had failure and success and just kept tuning and testing based on observations. I looked for many criteria as far as my measure of success. You mention size at morphing as your only measure of success and disagree with this. There are a LOT of different things to look for and size is important, but I have seen instances where big tadpoles did not end up being better frogs than ones that morphed smaller. I don't think it is good assumption that tadpole size is always representative of tadpole vigor.

As you pointed out, different species have different requirements and feeding habits. I agree that labeling it specifically for tadpole use would have to say something like "For algae eating tadpoles" Thus the information I posted said that it would more likely be labeled as just an "Algae Eater" formula that would work for fish and tadpole species with this requirement. 

When I get the whole line formulated, I think there should be a good selection of choices for species with different requirements, but I need to take this a few steps at a time and first see what THIS formula works for and the general feedback on the gel formula its self. 

The powder will not gel unless heated to 180 degrees so will not swell up in regular water. As far as how if suspends in a water column as a powder, I have no idea. The powdered ingredients are a mix of everything and so different components will likely behave differently. If Sera Micron is a uniform product, it will likely be much more predictable..... But again, this is designed to be used as a gel and the dry use was not the focus of my design.

I think you just need to let me send you some so you can help answer your own questions 

As far as the protein levels and type of protein. Even in this formula, the total algae inclusion level in the product contributes to around 25% of total protein levels and the amino acid profile is quite balanced because of the other sources in the mix. If you want a high protein diet without the Chlorella and Algae, I WILL have that available soon. Right now, a side by side comparison of THIS product will be a great starting point and I think perform very well. 

As far as thin, you can pour it on a flat surface and it can be made into something that resembles a fruit roll if you want..... but I don't think that is necessary at all because tads seem to graze on a block just fine and I don't understand the logic of how they would prefer something thinner. I don't think it would stick well to anything as a gel, but if you put down a piece of fine polyester mesh or similar and poured it over it, it might make a really stable thin sheet for grazing. You would of course have to remove the mesh after it was expired.



Allen


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## Neontra

Allen, I would be very interested in trying this. I have a giant pleco in a 55g aquarium and as of right now, i'm having trouble feeding it enough greens.


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## Mitch

What about salt water fish? Some of the fish in my reef tank would probably love a new algae based food. 

Did I just open up a whole new market for you? I hope so.


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## Allen Repashy

As far as salt water fish goes, I have another formula in mind. I prefer to stick to marine based ingredients as much as possible (less plant protein and more invert/fish/mollosk based, so there are a few things I would leave out. It might work just fine, but I have no experience or feedback on marine use at all.


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## Mitch

Allen Repashy said:


> As far as salt water fish goes, I have another formula in mind. I prefer to stick to marine based ingredients as much as possible (less plant protein and more invert/fish/mollosk based, so there are a few things I would leave out. It might work just fine, but I have no experience or feedback on marine use at all.


Oh, okay. Well if you ever release a marine based food, let me know!


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## Azurel

Allen Repashy said:


> As far as salt water fish goes, I have another formula in mind. I prefer to stick to marine based ingredients as much as possible (less plant protein and more invert/fish/mollusk based, so there are a few things I would leave out. It might work just fine, but I have no experience or feedback on marine use at all.


There are many, many algea eaters and omnivores that I think would be eager to eat this type of product in the marine hobby....Coming from the reef hobby for 25 years there has always been a need for more products that could be fed to algea eaters and methods to feeding them.

If this algea based product in gel form is stable enough to be used under current and has the "stickiness" to be applied so it holds for a period of time that the grazers could feed on it I think it could be a huge hit.....

I would still love to try it with my tads and have some friends that run a few of the biggest reef forums that I could share it with to try it out for their grazers which depending on species are some of the harder fish toget feeding in captivity and staying healthy....It could very well be a something that can and could be used in the reef hobby.


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## Allen Repashy

Azurel said:


> If this algea based product in gel form is stable enough to be used under current and has the "stickiness" to be applied so it holds for a period of time that the grazers could feed on it I think it could be a huge hit.....


Make sure you get some to try. I do not claim to know the nutritional requirements of marine algae eaters, but would love to develop a product based on information provided by expert hobbyists. It does hold as quite a firm gel for a long time. In order to keep it in one place, it might work to just mold it around something (think Popsicle stick) ..... a piece of dead coral with a hole in it might work really cool..... they could pick the center out if it. Lots of options... lets play!  First thing to do would be play with this formula and test it for the gelling properties.

I have access to quite a few other marine algaes. One issue is cost though... as some of these products cost twenty dollars a pound for the raw materials. Seaweeds - Ingredients - Spa & Cosmetics


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## Mitch

Allen Repashy said:


> Make sure you get some to try. I do not claim to know the nutritional requirements of marine algae eaters, but would love to develop a product based on information provided by expert hobbyists. It does hold as quite a firm gel for a long time. In order to keep it in one place, it might work to just mold it around something (think Popsicle stick) ..... a piece of dead coral with a hole in it might work really cool..... they could pick the center out if it. Lots of options... lets play!  First thing to do would be play with this formula and test it for the gelling properties.
> 
> I have access to quite a few other marine algaes. One issue is cost though... as some of these products cost twenty dollars a pound for the raw materials. Seaweeds - Ingredients - Spa & Cosmetics


Cost? Reefers literally pour money into their tanks! Even if it was expensive, with the right marketing, it would sell well.


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## JimO

hypostatic said:


> Being a biologist, I am confused by this statement





johnc said:


> Ah yes, but being a chemist I can tell you that the efficiency of breaking down proteins really depends on the individual proteins.


Well, being a hydrogeologist, let me point out that water typically flows down hill - even underground...


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## Azurel

Allen Repashy said:


> Make sure you get some to try. I do not claim to know the nutritional requirements of marine algae eaters, but would love to develop a product based on information provided by expert hobbyists. It does hold as quite a firm gel for a long time. In order to keep it in one place, it might work to just mold it around something (think Popsicle stick) ..... a piece of dead coral with a hole in it might work really cool..... they could pick the center out if it. Lots of options... lets play!  First thing to do would be play with this formula and test it for the gelling properties.
> 
> I have access to quite a few other marine algaes. One issue is cost though... as some of these products cost twenty dollars a pound for the raw materials. Seaweeds - Ingredients - Spa & Cosmetics


In most cases reefers use Spirulina algea and Nori(sea food seaweed) for most grazing fish fish are the main stay for feeding. We have even been known to use lettuce and broccoli as well to help vary the diet... Like Mitch said reefers really pour thier money into their tanks. I know I did and I didn't think twice about it. NOt to mention they could also add stuff to it before making it gel up....Lot of possibilities.....

But back on the dart frog tip.....Since this a dart frog forum....I can PM if you want to keep this amphibian discussion.....Just to keep it on track.

James


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## AlexSens

I'd love to experiment with this on a variety of dendrobatids tads, as well on some Melanophryniscus.

Alex


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## smk46

hi allen i would be very interested in trying this on a group of albino ancistrus that are a couple weeks old the gel sounds very interrsting to me
thanks
scottx


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## KeroKero

Thank you Allen for getting back to me. It sounds like in powder form it may not be the most useful (if the ingredients are separate and not together in a granule, but there are plenty of products like that already), but the gel part was the most useful thing about it anyways. While it may not replace Sera Micron, it actually gives us a product we've been trying to make Sera Micron do that it's not particularly good at!

The commentary on trying to see if it would go on thin has a couple of uses, and more directly relates to a few highly specialized tadpoles and fish such as those that live in fast flowing hillstream environments. When you suction onto a rock and graze it at the same time, slathering sera micron on it hasn't always worked due to it's tendency to crumble (while funny to watch them fall off, they don't appreciate it much). A gel would allow you to have that nice solid surface that they recognize as food with plenty of surface area for a number of tads to feed on while not having too much food in there that they wouldn't be able to eat it all before it started to mess with water quality. This is an extreme case, but also one of the reasons I got really interested in this product. Sera Micron just doesn't do that well.

But man would making a pan of this type stuff make life a lot easier with a large clutch of aggressive feeders! A formula that would mean I never have to feed out blackworms again (cleaning them is disgusting) and I will adore you!

Size at morphing is not the only measure of success, but one of the easiest to ask about when you don't know the species or test designs involved! Yes, there are many other signs, but without knowing how in depth your tests were, it's hard to know what to ask (especially when you don't know the products being compared). The differences you noted between this formula and the sandfire pellets are of interest, if you have time to share them.

I am interested in this formula as well as the less algae based formula you are working on. I'd like to have them both to play with to compare at the same time to see which one really works best with each type I'm working with.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Ok Guys,

I set up an actual product in my store so that my shipping department can process them like a regular order, which will make things a lot easier for me.

I have put the price at one dollar just to keep out the moochers and ask that you respect my generosity by not ordering more than one time. 

As with the SuperFly offer, this is not a gift. This is a contract that requires you to give me feedback AND a quote I can use for marketing if you find it to your liking.

I am going to try and mix up a small batch tomorrow and get these on the road next week. This offer will be good until Friday September 30th 2011 and at that time, I will remove the item from the store.

Thanks everyone for all the interest, I appreciate it and look forward to hearing back from you all. 

The product is as developed as I have been able to make it with the tadpole resources I have available. Please note that I do not claim that this works for ANY dendro species, so I am sure the feedback will be mixed. It will be interesting to see how different species take to the gel and how you guys do as well.

Repashy Superfoods :: SPECIAL :: Fresh Water Algae Eater Gel (Beta Version 1.54) - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

This product will come in an unmarked bag and no label to speak of. I will post instructions and info on the store product page as soon as I write it up as well as post it here.

Allen


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## Allen Repashy

oops.... the cart was still adding shipping and I have fixed it now so a dollar should get you out the door now.

*I can NOT afford to make this offer to those in Canada or any other Country* due to shipping costs so please don't order it if you are there. Sorry about that.


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## oddlot

Hi Allen sounds like a great idea and I would love to try it on my tads.

Lou


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## Neontra

Thanks Allen. I'll buy some soon, maybe tomorrow. Will get some with my order of superfly


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## Ed

Gel diets have been used for a significant period of time in institutions to target specific diets to many different species of aquatic animals and recipes for them can be found in a number of references. With respect to tadpoles, there are a large number of adatations for feeding and this is reflected in the required diet. The vast majority of tadpoles are not herbivores as is commonly considered but are actually ominivorous ingesting considerable amounts of "aufwuchs" while engaging in grazing behaviors. Along with this, there are significant differences in palatability as well as growth on tadpoles fed algae based diets (see for example (sorry no free copy) BioOne Online Journals - Growth Rates and Digestive Abilities of Bullfrog Tadpoles (Rana catesbeiana) Fed Algal Diets and http://www.unioviedo.es/dalvarez/pdf/FEC16(640-648).pdf (free copy). 

With respect to dendrobatids, a large segment of the tadpoles from this taxa are known to be cannibalistic as a result of poor access to animal protein which is a limiting agent for growth rates (the tadpoles deposition sites are considered to be poor in terms of primary productivity (see for example http://othes.univie.ac.at/8886/1/2010-03-19_0201582.pdf and the associated references). Even in obligate egg feeders we hear anecdotal comments on fruit flies being found in the gut contents of pumilio tadpoles (it was I believe reported here but I can't tease it out right now). Animal protein tends to also result in a larger tadpole which translates into a larger more stable metamorph. 

see for example ScienceDirect - Animal Behaviour : The smell of success: choice of larval rearing sites by means of chemical cues in a Peruvian poison frog
http://www.phyllomedusa.esalq.usp.br/articles/volume8/number1/814150.pdf

The dendrobatid hobby has seen several cycles of feeding plant based diets versus animal protien based diets and more omniverous diets. 


Some comments,

Ed


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## Allen Repashy

As Ed points out, gel based diets are not new to Science. I think that most pet manufacturers just don't give hobbyists enough credit to think the average keeper is willing to do the extra work to mix it up. 

Most scientific based diets are gelatin based, which IS quite different from what I have done. Gelatin is composed primarily of collagen, which is a protien, but a non essential one that is not easily digested and utilized by most animals. 

So when gelatin based gels are formulated, they appear to have high levels of protein in them..... but taking out the collagen in the protein content can resuce the good protein contend by up to 20%.

I us an algae/plant based protein that requires inclusion levels of only a few percent, while creating a better, more stable gel (in my opinion of course)

In this formula, I have included a high level of overall protein,at least 45%, but might be as high as 50%. Right now, these levels are formulation based and I haven't sent lab samples out yet and they usually come back higher.

I formulated this diet to provide protein evenly from three different sources..... natural algae, marine animals, and highest quality isolated plant protein (which has a similar profile and digestibility to animal protein. 

I did not see any difference in development rate between this and the pure carnivore formula I made that had similar levels of protein.

Some important observations I have about growth rate are that one major benefit of a gel formula is that you can provide higher amounts of feed that are available for a long time without effecting water quality. 

Being able to put a chunk in that will last for 12 hours, allows a constant food supply compared the the "Binge and Purge" style of feeding flakes or pellets that must be eaten within minutes before they break down.

this constant grazing access to food is much more natural considering most tads are constantly looking for food.

If I have time, I will whip up a batch of the carnivore gel also, so those interested could compare both side by side.


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## ladyfaile15

that would be awsome if you could do both, i would be interested to test them side by side 


jamie


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## Azurel

Really all one would have to do is add some cyclop-eeze before it gels and you have animal protein right there in the mix....Hard to beat cyclop-eeze.

Ordered my sample. Would also be interested in the other mix for testing as well...Thanks Allen for so much contact with the hobbyist.


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## Allen Repashy

Azurel said:


> Really all one would have to do is add some cyclop-eeze before it gels and you have animal protein right there in the mix....Hard to beat cyclop-eeze.


It already has heaps of animal protein from Whole Krill,(crustacean) Whole sardine (fish), and Whole Squid (mollusk) and whole egg (animal)

Cyclop-eeze is great stuff and you could add it..... it is very difficult to get wholesale in commercial quantities at a reasonable cost because a single company has a monopoly on the stuff. I don't see a huge advantage over krill as far as an ingredient.


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## Azurel

Allen Repashy said:


> It already has heaps of animal protein from Whole Krill,(crustacean) Whole sardine (fish), and Whole Squid (mollusk) and whole egg (animal)
> 
> Cyclop-eeze is great stuff and you could add it..... it is very difficult to get wholesale in commercial quantities because a single company has a monopoly on the stuff.


Then it sounds like a omnivore diet already, more then just an algea based diet....


----------



## Allen Repashy

Azurel said:


> Then it sounds like a omnivore diet already, more then just an algea based diet....


It is definitely more than just an algae diet, but as far as being an omnivore formula, I don't agree.......... though it does have plant based protein, it is isolated, and total protein is very high. 

I consider a typical omnivore diet to be 25%-30% protein as this is pretty standard.... it is not unlike comparing cat food to dog food, though I think dogs are not actually a great example because I think they do fine on pure carnivore diets..... but in the pet trade, you typically see cat foods over 40% and dog foods around 25.

I do tend to lean towards the "more is better" school when it comes to protein considering I am a low carb consumer myself  I see the only real deterrent to higher protein levels as cost, which is what limits most manufacturers, but not me......

Another important thing to not is that Algae such as spirulina, contains 60%-65% protein dmb....... which is about the same as pure dried fish or other whole animal..... So algae eaters can require just as much protein as a carnivore. The real difference is in the amino acid profile of the different sources, and ability to digest cellulose.

This is why in my opinion, that algae eaters do quite well on non algae based high protein diets. The main hurdle is being if they want to eat the non algae based diet because they definitely have a 'taste' for algae...... so using enough algae to get them to eat it, and including high levels of other proteins, seems to work well for these species, and also still be palatable for non algae eaters.

This is the reason I am using isolated plant proteins in the algae eater formula. These isolated proteins are quite neutral in flavor and smell, allowing for a more 'Algae taste", and the reason for my inclusion in this formula.... As you might know, fish meal, squid meal, and krill meal...... are quite pungently fishy in smell.


----------



## D3monic

I would be interested. I am currently working with and have in the water

Ranitomeya Vanzolinii
Ranitomeya Varadero
Ranitomeya Reticulata 
and just finally got a good batch of Ranitomeya Uakarii eggs that are developing and could be used as guinie pigs for a exclusive Rephashy fed diet. 

I could even try on some Pumilio but I doubt they would take it being strictly obligates.


----------



## Ed

Allen Repashy said:


> Cyclop-eeze is great stuff and you could add it..... it is very difficult to get wholesale in commercial quantities at a reasonable cost because a single company has a monopoly on the stuff. I don't see a huge advantage over krill as far as an ingredient.


I think Allen is right on the money here, I don't see a huge advantage over krill either. 

Ed


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## Allen Repashy

Ok Peeps,

I just got back from the Lab and did some pre release formula tweeks and gel testing and am really happy with the results. I am ready to go. I also made the time to finish the Carnivore Gel so that those who want to try this instead, or try and compare both side by side or against their current feeds, that they can do so.

Here is a link to the Carnivore Gel (code name Meat Pie)

Besides fish and tadpoles, if any of you cross over to other herps, I would like to get feedback on this being used for Terrestrial Carnivores such as Monitors, Aquatic Herps such as Turtles, And Caudata such as Newts. Throw it at whatever eats meat and let me know how it goes, I think there is a huge range of uses for this one.

Protein level is between 50% and 55%, fat is around 9%

No fillers of any kind, this is about as packed full of nutrients as you can get.


----------



## Allen Repashy

I have finished up the generic labeling for the samples and we are now good to go for sending this stuff out starting Tuesday. 

If you ordered the Algae Eater and also want the Carnivore Gel, make sure to go back and put that one through again for easy processing and add a note that you ordered both so we can put them in the same envelope.


* “Soilent Green” * Meal Replacement Gel for Algae eating species of Fish, Reptiles, and Amphibians. 

*INGREDIENTS: *Chlorella Algae, Spirulina Algae, Whole Krill Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Whole Squid Meal, Alfalfa Leaf Meal, Germinated Brown Rice Protein Isolate, Pea Protein Isolate, Dried Brewers Yeast, Whole Dried Egg, Stabilized Rice Bran, Dried Kelp, Carrageenan, Konjac, Carob Bean Gum, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Taurine, Potassium Citrate, Calcium Propionate, Phaffia rhodozyma yeast, Paprika Extract, Calendula Flower Powder, Corn Flour, Marigold Flower Extract, Rose Hips Powder, Turmeric Root Powder, Malic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Canthaxanthin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Gluconate, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

*DIRECTIONS:* To make a one cup block of product, add 2/3 cup of water into a suitable microwavable container, add 1/3 cup of dry mix, and stir until blended. Microwave until it just starts to boil (2 to 3 minutes typical) remove and stir. Alternatively, you can heat water in suitable container on stove until it boils, remove from heat, and stir in powder. Let sit at room temp until cool. The product can then be cut into cubes, or used as a whole slab. Whatever is not used immediately can be stored in the refrigerator for up to one month. If long-term storage is required, it can be frozen. You can use more or less water to increase or reduce gel firmness.

*Guaranteed Analysis:* Crude Protein min. 45%, Crude Fat min. 6%, Crude Fat max. 8%, Crude Fiber max. 8%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 12%, Calcium min. 1.5%, Calcium max. 2%, Phosphorus min. 0..75%.




*
“Meat Pie”*

Meal Replacement Gel for Omnivorous and Carnivorous Amphibians, Reptiles, Fish, Birds, and Mammals. 

*INGREDIENTS:*Whole Krill Meal, Whole Squid Meal, Whole Sardine Meal, Whole Egg Powder, Dried Brewers Yeast, Carrageenan Algae , Konjac, Carob Bean Gum, Dried Kelp, Potassium Citrate, Calcium Propionate, Dicalcium Phosphate,Taurine, Spirulina Algae, Phaffia rhodozyma yeast, Paprika Extract, Calendula Flower Powder, Marigold Flower Extract, Rose Hips Powder, Turmeric Root Powder, Malic Acid, Sodium Chloride, Canthaxanthin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Gluconate, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).

*DIRECTIONS*: To make a one cup block of product, add 2/3 cup of water into a suitable microwavable container, add 1/3 cup of dry mix, and stir until blended. Microwave until it just starts to boil (2 to 3 minutes typical) remove and stir. Alternatively, you can heat water in suitable container on stove until it boils, remove from heat, and stir in powder. Let sit at room temp until cool. The product can then be cut into cubes, or used as a whole slab. Whatever is not used immediately can be stored in the refrigerator for up to one month. If long-term storage is required, it can be frozen. You can use more or less water to increase or reduce gel firmness.

*Guaranteed Analysis:* Crude Protein min. 55%, Crude Fat min. 8%, Crude Fat max. 10%, Crude Fiber max. 6%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 9%, Calcium min. 1.5%, Calcium max. 2.5%, Phosphorus min. 0.75%.


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## randa4

Allen,

I would very much like to try your new product--please include me on the list of testors.

Thank you,
Mike in Helotes


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## Allen Repashy

randa4 said:


> Allen,
> 
> I would very much like to try your new product--please include me on the list of testors.
> 
> Thank you,
> Mike in Helotes


Hi Mike,

No problem, you need to follow the instructions in this thread to get it on the way.

Allen


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## WendySHall

Allen Repashy said:


> Ok Peeps,
> 
> I just got back from the Lab and did some pre release formula tweeks and gel testing and am really happy with the results. I am ready to go. I also made the time to finish the Carnivore Gel so that those who want to try this instead, or try and compare both side by side or against their current feeds, that they can do so.
> 
> Here is a link to the Carnivore Gel (code name Meat Pie)
> 
> Besides fish and tadpoles, if any of you cross over to other herps, I would like to get feedback on this being used for Terrestrial Carnivores such as Monitors, Aquatic Herps such as Turtles, And Caudata such as Newts. Throw it at whatever eats meat and let me know how it goes, I think there is a huge range of uses for this one.
> 
> Protein level is between 50% and 55%, fat is around 9%
> 
> No fillers of any kind, this is about as packed full of nutrients as you can get.


Allen...your link wasn't showing in the post above. So, here it is for anyone interested...

*"Meat Pie" purchasing link* - Repashy Superfoods :: SPECIAL :: "Meat Pie" Carnivore Gel ( Beta Version 1.32) - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center

I plan on setting up 3 groups, but am unsure of how I want to/should do it. Should I do...
1 fed as usual
1 fed as usual + "Soilent Green"
1 fed as usual + "Meat Pie"
*OR*
1 fed as usual
1 fed only "Soilent Green"
1 fed only "Meat Pie"

Please let me know your thoughts. I am not very scientific, so if my tads (Tinctorious) will be severely deficient in something by doing the "onlys", I would want to know.

Thanks so much!


----------



## Allen Repashy

WendySHall said:


> Allen...your link wasn't showing in the post above. So, here it is for anyone interested...
> 
> *"Meat Pie" purchasing link* - Repashy Superfoods :: SPECIAL :: "Meat Pie" Carnivore Gel ( Beta Version 1.32) - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center
> 
> I plan on setting up 3 groups, but am unsure of how I want to/should do it. Should I do...
> 1 fed as usual
> 1 fed as usual + "Soilent Green"
> 1 fed as usual + "Meat Pie"
> *OR*
> 1 fed as usual
> 1 fed only "Soilent Green"
> 1 fed only "Meat Pie"
> 
> Please let me know your thoughts. I am not very scientific, so if my tads (Tinctorious) will be severely deficient in something by doing the "onlys", I would want to know.
> 
> Thanks so much!


The best feedback would come from it being used exclusively, comparing it to your regular feed..... but of course, some species might not eat exclusively, or at all, so do what you can.

Thanks! Allen


----------



## hypostatic

I know this is kinda off topic, but do you think the gel could be molded like frog eggs and used as a replacement diet for obligate egg feeders?

I know replacement diets have been tried (and failed) ad nauseum. But I also know that there are some people in the hobby who successfully use surrogate eggs to feed their obligates.


----------



## Allen Repashy

hypostatic said:


> I know this is kinda off topic, but do you think the gel could be molded like frog eggs and used as a replacement diet for obligate egg feeders?
> 
> I know replacement diets have been tried (and failed) ad nauseum. But I also know that there are some people in the hobby who successfully use surrogate eggs to feed their obligates.


It could be molded or cut into tiny pieces, or shredded in a cheese grater for all that matter. A boiled egg cutter (the ones with the wires that cut them into thin pieces) makes some pretty cool wafers. It can also be poured thin and dried in the sun or a cookie pan to make a kind of jerkey which might be interesting for something I can't yet think of LOL.


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## Ed

hypostatic said:


> I know this is kinda off topic, but do you think the gel could be molded like frog eggs and used as a replacement diet for obligate egg feeders?
> 
> I know replacement diets have been tried (and failed) ad nauseum. But I also know that there are some people in the hobby who successfully use surrogate eggs to feed their obligates.


Part of the problem with surrogate diets is that they need to be able to trigger feeding behaviors. I know of some trials that used the eggs of Cynops ssp but for them to work, the outer membranes of the eggs had to be removed before the tadpoles could feed on them. Once you get a palatable alternative food source, you then need to meet the nutrient requirements as obligate egg feeders and the diet has to be able to be digested. I don't think there has been any research on the morphology of the digestive tract of dendrobatid obligate egg feeding tadpoles. We do know that in some other obligate egg feeders (http://www2.thu.edu.tw/~biyckam/publication/1996-Nest site selection.pdf ) the digestive tract is very short so the substitute would have to be very easily digested (and we don't know what kind of enzymes the obligates produce). 

Ed


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## Mworks

Hi Allen,

is testing the product confined to keepers in the USA? I have a number of tads from Terribilis, vanzolini, reticulata on the go.

Regards
Graham


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## Zoomie

Allen, I am willing to test on Dendrobatids. I will do a SG versus Tad Bites. Already completed via the Repashy site. If you have enough people, please feel free to add my dollar to the R & D fund.


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## johnc

Allen, 

Thank you for offering the meat variant. I'm going to try both as exclusive foods, and also versus NLS Thera+.

Just out of curiosity, how much canthaxanthin do you use, weight for weight?

Best wishes,

John


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## KeroKero

Ed - thanks for posting up those great articles! I've read two of them in the past, and they give someone a better idea of what a tadpole really eats when they are the omnivorous detritus types. 

I also agree about the cyclop-eeze - it's a nice product, but not the only way to get that good stuff into your tadpoles. The hobby has latched onto a specific product rather than what is in the product that is so great and working it into their tad's diets. 

Allen - The Meat Pie was much more what I was hoping for Dendro wise, and it looks great! 

*When developing a test to compare both the Green and the Meat* it is preferable to feed it as their *only* diet with animals fed your normal diet as a control. Neither of these diets would be so horrifically lacking that you'd be putting them at risk - it's just that the "meat pie" is formulated more towards what these guys actually eat so I'd expect it may have tadpoles reaching their potential more than the other - but hey! The Green may do just as well! Ideally you'd want clutch mates that are fed that food from day one (not only is it better test design, but they can be so damn picky about switching to a new food!). If any tadpoles are a little smaller and weaker than siblings, I wouldn't put them on a new untested food, or at least not include them in the results since developmental issues could compound your numbers.

What are people planning to test these foods on? I've seen a few people mention various tadpoles that have to be raised individually, but I'd also love to see how some of the communal species (E. anthonyi/tricolor, Ameerga and Phyllobates) go for it. Feeding a tank of those flakes/powder can be a pain given how much those guys eat, and this product really could be more helpful with them IMO. The bigger the range of species, the better the review of the product.

I won't be doing the testing on these products (lack of little wigglers to feed and not willing to enter in on a contract) but when they are out on the market I will be buying both to play with


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## Azurel

Cyclop-eeze was used as an example until that point Allen hadn't a posted an ingredient list of what was in either product...Now that he has I don't think there would be a need to add that or much else, especially with the "meat pie" ingredient list.


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## poison beauties

Couple thoughts on the tad diets, Have you suggested a method for testing the products based on using the provens vs yours so people can form well educated opinions on it? My thoughts are many of the inexperienced hobbyists grabbing this stuff up will be blindly backing something that is unproven as far as being critiqued against what works once they morph a tad, Its not hard to get a tad to morph on anything that is in the range of whats around or a natural part of their diet. The contract itself sounds like a promo but it will likely mislead people. What are you thoughts on this being added to a rotation vs a one for all diet? I think you would need to build something dart frog specific before many would give up what they rely on now. What products have you tested yours against? I would think that this gel would be a waste for individual tad raising, and many dart tads do not fair well in groups you wouldnt know what benefits they do get from the feed due to the diet changes from cannibalism.

Again, not trying to trash your product, just wondering if the test base can be scientificly valid due to the possibility of so many flaws. You plan to use the opinons of those not capable to perform a test that holds up to what many would consider valid. Getting the backing of this hobby when its not specificly dart formulated may be an issue. 

Michael


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## Allen Repashy

Well I don't know what you mean by the contract being a promo. The only thing I have asked for in return for the product is that I get feedback. I did not, nor do I expect it to all be positive. I am trying to gather information to help me with the development of the product not to make an advertisement out of. I don't know how that can be considered a promo and how this will mislead people 
I did put something in my post about using quotes, but I really don't intend to use them for an ad and apologize if that's how it came across. If you look at all my other products I sell, I don't have any quotes from anyone other than posted reviews on the site. The reason I said this was that when I did the Superfly promo, I sent out hundreds of bags and only got feedback from a handful of people. Using the word contract implies that I need your feedback and a quote. Too many people just want free stuff, never to be heard from again. A quote, good or bad, will let me make a list of who actually replied. I really don't care if you don't send a quote, I just want to hear SOMETHING because of my prior frustrating experience getting feedback.

As far as qualification, I think I am pretty capable of figuring out who has experience on here and who doesn't and I will weigh the comments accordingly. I have had, and will have, extensive contact off forum with those here who are really into testing it as scientifically as possible. It is important to me to get feedback from both novice breeders as well as experts so I can evaluate everything from how easy it is to make and use to detailed growth rates and responses. I did not say I was looking for scientifically valid feedback and would not expect that from anyone here.

The gel can easily be cut or shredded into very small pieces that could be used for individual tads.... and feedback on things like this is part of what I am looking for.

I stated earlier that it could be used as part of a rotation, and that I would like to hear feedback on this also, though it would be less conclusive than if it was used exclusively as far as feedback goes.

As pointed out by others, you can't really make a dart frog specific diet because within this group there are quite varied feeding requirements and styles. The purpose of this project is to see if it these formulas work, and with what species.


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## poison beauties

I'm not so much pushing the promo bit but it does mention using the quotes from those who test it, that said anyone who raised a tad on your mix could be blindly backing it without a valid test of it. I did not mean it should be used in a rotation for a testing of it, just wondering if your gearing up to push this as a tad diet for sole use instead of something to add into a rotation.

Just based on what Ive read it contains Im sure it will work enough to raise and morph a tad, but Im interested in knowing if it advances whats been used. I would also be interested in knowing how it fairs in tads raised singly but as I referred communal raising of many tads its the cannibalism which ends with the morphing of larger healthier tads so I wasnt sure how you would figure in on what role the diet played for it. 

And I can admit I was unsure of your knowledge on who is qualified to produce a valid feedback theory on the diet but Im sure with Ed and others it wouldnt be hard to figure out. I would like to see an end all to the use of multiple foods and products for tad feeding which is why I was asking whether this was going to be pushed as something to ad to a rotation or a product that covers it all. As far as creating a dart specific diet Im sure its an issue but using the dart hobby to test a product that will be used for all or many amphibian species could be misleading. Again Im unsure if your having it tested by hobbyists or breeders of other amphibian species.

I may have missed some of it in the thread but if you have posted or have a suggested testing setup for it Id like to hear it. As well as what all you would recommend it being tested against. I can help with a qt stile testing of it with both groups of tads and singles but there seem to be plenty of volunteers for it. I was just hoping to see a more scientific approach to it I guess, I love the IBC, The vitA and other products you have put out. This would be what Im most interested in seeing well tested. I would just hope that a lack of scientific approach wont affect the outcome of it. I would think that this should only be a start.

Michael


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## johnc

johnc said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much canthaxanthin do you use, weight for weight?


Would appreciate some info on this.


----------



## tclipse

Ed said:


> I don't think there has been any research on the morphology of the digestive tract of dendrobatid obligate egg feeding tadpoles.
> 
> Ed


Has anyone attempted an in-depth nutritional analysis of oophaga eggs?


----------



## Ed

tclipse said:


> Has anyone attempted an in-depth nutritional analysis of oophaga eggs?


I am not aware of any. I'm not sure that dendrobatid eggs in particular have to be analyzed given that tadpoles can be successfully reared on the eggs from other taxa that have thier gel coats removed. I have seen data on carotenoid content in some anuran eggs but would have to look to see if I can find a protien and fat analysis of them. I suspect that the actual nutritional components are going to be highly conserved across amphibian taxa. As another thought, you would also need to get the nutritional profile of wild collected egg feeding eggs as captive eggs are subject to deficiencies such as lack of carotenoid variations or vitaminin deficiencies which could mean that analysis of captive produced eggs are likely to provide an incorrect profile. 

The issue is really in the length of the digestive tract of the oophagous tadpoles and whether or not the tadpole is secreting generalized digestive enzymes which would allow for digestion of other materials as the short length reduces microbial assistence or other commensuals to help in digestion. If the gel is easily digested in a shortened digestive tract then the target should initially be set to locate chemical cues to induce ready feeding on the diet. 

Some thoughts, 

Ed


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## Allen Repashy

johnc said:


> Would appreciate some info on this.


Canthaxanthin and Astaxanthin inclusion levels are counted in parts per million so "weight per weight" isn't really the way to measure it.

Maximum allowable inclusion levels for salmon destined for the food market is 50 ppm combined astaxanthin and canthaxanthin. and it has been shown that levels this high are not required to acquire natural meat pigmentation color. 

Total of these two carotenoids in my formulas are about 50 ppm with about 10 of those coming from Canthaxanthin. 

Total of all carotenoids (from beta carotene to leutine and all the others that superpig contains) are between 250-300ppm.


----------



## KeroKero

poison beauties said:


> I may have missed some of it in the thread but if you have posted or have a suggested testing setup for it Id like to hear it. As well as what all you would recommend it being tested against.


I made some recommendations a couple of posts before yours that I hope people will follow. After reading Allen's post above I can only hope some people will follow it and post back to him, but the best information he may get for the product would still best be from people he's developed a relationship with - much easier to get feed back when you can just call them up! With a few people with lots of experience you can get a lot of your needed feed back right there. I hate being a pessimist about it, but a $1 sample might as well be free!

I don't think any grater I have would cut up the gel into pieces I would want for individual tads (blender maybe? coffee grinder? Is it a hard enough gel for that?) but the best thing I can think of this for is communal tadpoles. You just can't give those suckers enough flakes to keep them happy, and the gel medium perfect for them. That said, it's still going to take a lot to pull me away from my flake medley at this point - you may have to pry it from my cold, dead hands... or order from their website LOL


----------



## johnc

Allen Repashy said:


> Canthaxanthin and Astaxanthin inclusion levels are counted in parts per million so "weight per weight" isn't really the way to measure it.
> 
> Maximum allowable inclusion levels for salmon destined for the food market is 50 ppm combined astaxanthin and canthaxanthin. and it has been shown that levels this high are not required to acquire natural meat pigmentation color.
> 
> Total of these two carotenoids in my formulas are about 50 ppm with about 10 of those coming from Canthaxanthin.
> 
> Total of all carotenoids (from beta carotene to leutine and all the others that superpig contains) are between 250-300ppm.


Allen, I must ask for you forgiveness please. I severely underestimated just how far into the science of this you have gone.


----------



## Ed

poison beauties said:


> I think you would need to build something dart frog specific before many would give up what they rely on now. What products have you tested yours against? I would think that this gel would be a waste for individual tad raising, and many dart tads do not fair well in groups you wouldnt know what benefits they do get from the feed due to the diet changes from cannibalism.


 
Hi Michael,

I'm a little lost here.. I'm not sure why you think a dendrobatid specific product is necessary as the history of the hobby and institutional rearing methods indicate the exact opposite. If you go through the literature starting back in the early to mid-1980s we can see that tadpoles have been successfully reared using singly or in combination (this is not an all inclusive list) nettle powder, algae formulation, fish foods, gel diets, live and/or frozen foods such as black worms, tubifex worms, daphnia, earthworms), pellets such as tadpole bites, salmon pellets, trout chow, aufwuchs.....

As with other herps, nutritional needs are heavily conserved across taxa so there is little to suggest that there needs to be a specific product for dendrobatids. 

I'm not sure why you consider that it would be a waste for single reared tadpoles as with a gel diet you can portion it as needed. When I tried a couple at the zoo, years ago, I used a drinking straw to cut out the amount to feed in a cup. And you can portion it out onto a cookie sheet lined with some parchement paper and freeze most gel diets. These are then placed into a container from where it can be removed and fed out as needed. 

As is indicated in the literature, and supported by anecdotal evidence, cannibalism is a result of insufficient animal protien food sources (As an example I was unable to induce cannibalism in R. ventrimaculatus tadpoles even when they were kept at high densities (5 tadpoles/1 cup of water in a large yogurt container) provided I kept one or two live blackworms in the container). There are anecodotal reports of a number of species known to be cannibalistic being reared in groups successfully by the hobby.... 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## Ed

KeroKero said:


> I don't think any grater I have would cut up the gel into pieces I would want for individual tads (blender maybe? coffee grinder? Is it a hard enough gel for that?) but the best thing I can think of this for is communal tadpoles. You just can't give those suckers enough flakes to keep them happy, and the gel medium perfect for them. That said, it's still going to take a lot to pull me away from my flake medley at this point - you may have to pry it from my cold, dead hands... or order from their website LOL


 
Use a drinking straw in the same way you would a cookie cutter. Or you can use a candy mold made for small candies and cut up the small amounts. This also makes it easy to freeze the surplus. 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties

nice idea on the straw Ed, as for the single tad rearing I seem to be uninformed on this gel mix as to how it works. If its more solid than what Im expecting and sinks I guess it would be divisable small enough to not foul water or cause any issues.

As for the cannibalism, I know and have managed to raise tads of many species in groups but should you end up with cannibalism all I was referring to was how would you related it to the findings? We do know that tads raised in these situations do morph larger. Would this relate to the findings? Im all for advancing, again not trying to trash this just better understand it as I find it odd that it be tested without a set standard or something listed to test it against with all these species. 

On the dart specific diet I guess I would just like to end up with a complete setup diet in one, And I dont see it possible if geared to feed a large variety of species unless they are geared to take the same exact diet. Im more interested if this is being designed as the end all to whats around or just another to toss in the rotation. Is this diet freezable so you can use it overtime once prepared? and would it need to be thawed? Im wondering on the water temp changes tossing tads into shock adding a frozen feed to a small amount of water.

Michael


----------



## Allen Repashy

The gel is firm enough that a block will bounce if you drop it..... depending on how much water you use.

I have used a cheese grater to shred it. a food chopper like one of those slap choppers, or processor would work. any kind of a dicer would also work but you would need to find one that made really small pieces. 

How about the good old Nicer Dicer  

It says that the julienne blades make 2mm squares. That's less than 1/8"!

I am a bit confused if the mini dicer is just a smaller dicer or it makes the smaller pieces so need to figure that out.







Honestly, I find it real easy to just pour it to a mold about a quarter inch deep and then just quickly cut it one way and then the other with a knife making small little squares.... but that mini dicer looks pretty cool.

I want you guys here to come up with creative ways..... like Ed's brilliant idea with the straw... 

Yes it can be frozen.

If you used a cutter like a straw, you could just reheat what was left and it will re gel into a new block to be die cut again.


----------



## Ed

poison beauties said:


> nice idea on the straw Ed, as for the single tad rearing I seem to be uninformed on this gel mix as to how it works. If its more solid than what Im expecting and sinks I guess it would be divisable small enough to not foul water or cause any issues.
> 
> As for the cannibalism, I know and have managed to raise tads of many species in groups but should you end up with cannibalism all I was referring to was how would you related it to the findings? We do know that tads raised in these situations do morph larger. Would this relate to the findings? Im all for advancing, again not trying to trash this just better understand it as I find it odd that it be tested without a set standard or something listed to test it against with all these species.
> 
> On the dart specific diet I guess I would just like to end up with a complete setup diet in one, And I dont see it possible if geared to feed a large variety of species unless they are geared to take the same exact diet. Im more interested if this is being designed as the end all to whats around or just another to toss in the rotation. Is this diet freezable so you can use it overtime once prepared? and would it need to be thawed? Im wondering on the water temp changes tossing tads into shock adding a frozen feed to a small amount of water.
> 
> Michael


As with many other things, a blanket statement on whether or not it will foul the water is going to be difficult to make as this is going to depend on the volume of the rearing container (and people use everything from small yogurt cups to rubber maid sweater boxes). We also have to consider that anything that can be digested by the tadpole is going to be subject to digestion by microbes so like all other foods if overfed, it will foul the water. 

I'm still not sure what you are basing the idea that a non-obligate dendrobatid tadpole is going to require a targeted diet when this is not supported in the published methods or even those reported anecdotally by the hobby. As I noted above, the methods documented by the hobby and institutions has them being reared successfully on diets that vary from (not an all inclusive list) nettle powder to fish flakes. The non-obligate dendrobatid tadpoles are considered to be generalized omnivore tadpoles much like many other types of anurans... 

Ed


----------



## purplegroovetube

I have the hyla versicolor tadpoles if you are still in need.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Ok Peeps, We started shipping these out yesterday (Wednesday) so they should start showing up today or tomorrow depending where you are. I will put together some test suggestions in the next day or so we can get the most valuable feedback possible.

Allen


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## hypostatic

Ed said:


> Part of the problem with surrogate diets is that they need to be able to trigger feeding behaviors.
> Ed


Are the triggers for feeding behaviors known?


----------



## johnc

Received mine today. Thanks Allen.


----------



## PeanutbuttER

Got mine today as well. Much larger bags than I had anticipated. Thanks! Will let you know how it goes.


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## lauraleellbp

Allen,

If this new product proves to be a substitute for aquatic feeders that rely on aufwachs, it could blow the door off of commercial fish farming for MANY many currently hard-to-farm species of tropical fish and inverts.

As an avid aquarium hobbyist, I'll be watching this thread closely... and sending a few herbivorous catfish hobby breeders your way.

You might also consider the freshwater dwarf shrimp market. Most people currently into dwarf shrimp import their food from Asia... I'm going to see if a few people I know there might be interested in trying this as well.


----------



## Allen Repashy

lauraleellbp said:


> Allen,
> 
> If this new product proves to be a substitute for aquatic feeders that rely on aufwachs, it could blow the door off of commercial fish farming for MANY many currently hard-to-farm species of tropical fish and inverts.
> 
> As an avid aquarium hobbyist, I'll be watching this thread closely... and sending a few herbivorous catfish hobby breeders your way.
> 
> You might also consider the freshwater dwarf shrimp market. Most people currently into dwarf shrimp import their food from Asia... I'm going to see if a few people I know there might be interested in trying this as well.


I actually have a separate Invert Formula in the works that Philippe deVosjoli has been testing at his place on all of his inverts from Vampire Crabs to Crystal Red shrimp. He has been using it as an exclusive diet for a year now with great results. His Sulawesi snails go nuts for it too. This formula is a different combination of the same ingredients as the Soilent Green that has lower protein content, abit less algae, and double the carotenoids (more superpig and krill)

I would love some feedback on various species of Mbuna, so tell your fish friends to grab some if they want to try it.


----------



## msjinkzd

I am currently working with stiphodon percnopterygionus (goby, obligate algae eater) and feeding the Mazuri line of foods. I also specialize in freshwater invertebrates, including nerite snails, that are obligate grazer/algae eaters. I would be very interested to see if this food applies to those populations.


----------



## Allen Repashy

I think the link has got lost in the thread so I am just going to post it again. I am extending it to next Friday 

Repashy Superfoods :: SPECIAL - Repashy Ventures - Distributor Center


----------



## oddlot

Hi Allen,I received both test samples today.I am going to whip up a batch a little later tonight and will post feeding response tomorrow. I will be starting with some fg ventrimaculatus and leuc tads for now.Thanks again for the generous offer,hopefully you will get a better feedback this time.I will definitely keep you posted.

Lou


----------



## tclipse

Allen, 

I tried the Meat Pie with my R. intermedius tadpoles (they ate it, not me ), they seem to like it just fine and attack it as readily as I've seen them do with any other food. 

It's also holding together well so far, some tiny pieces will fall off as the tads are eating it (as expected), but it stays put if they aren't actively messing with it. 

I'll let you know how my H. versicolors like the Soilent Green when it comes in, I did give them a bit of Meat Pie and they loved it as well. I'll obviously have to reserve judgment until later on the other aspects, but palatability doesn't seem to be a concern.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Thanks Teddy!

Excuse the ignorance, but are you raising them individually, or in groups?

How did you find the process of making the gel? 

Allen


----------



## Allen Repashy

*Some Guidelines*

Hey guys,

I thought I would make this post since the stuff seems to be landing and people are going to be playing with it this weekend.

As far as feedback, I will outline the best case scenario as far as what will help me the most......

In a perfect world:

Start with Tads that have just hatched and not eaten anything else

Split sibling tads into separate groups and feed one group the Repashy, and the other, your current product or rotation.

If you are willing, use it exclusively for those it is fed to.

If you are using a well established and bio filtered system, put a piece in that will last half a day and replace it when it is gone or about to go.

If you are raising tads individually in stagnant cups, just give them what they can eat in a few hours. Everyone is going to have different protocols for changing water here, so I can't give much advise other than to say that it should not break down very fast or effect the chemistry of the water like overfeeding flake or pellets.

You DO need to note that if there is more food available, they will graze and eat more food..... producing more ammonia..... so base your water condition on how much food is going through the tank and note that they will process more if you put a bigger chunk in there.

Please track growth comparison, days to morphing, and how well the frogs start. If you have the capability of fine weight measurement, that would be awesome, but not necessary.

If you have resources, please compare both of my products against your control, and each other.

If you can't do more detailed tests like outlined above, just comment on your observations.

Please also comment on what species do, and don't find it palatable and other general observations.

Please also comment on how easy or difficult it is to prepare, dispense, and store, and if the directions on the label are sufficient, or need to be changed or added to.

I wish I could edit these posts because I am sure I will think of things to add here. 

For you Scientific Minded people out there, please add any comments on what you think might produce valuable feedback.


----------



## tclipse

The versicolors are being raised communally, the intermedius individually. I also have some E. anthonyi tads incoming soon, which will be communal (once these new tads hit the water is when I plan to split them into group A) my original regimen and group B) exclusively Repashy, and group C) my regimen + Repashy). 

The gel is really to make, I made a much smaller test batch (kept the 1/3 powder to 2/3 water ratio, which seems to be just fine) in one of the sauce containers from any fast food restaurant (probably about 1oz or so?) so far, I'll be making more once the current eggs develop. 

In smaller amounts, BE CAREFUL about microwave time... the stuff was boiling in under 5-6 seconds in the small container I used.

As an update, both the intermedius and the H. versicolor tads have eaten everything I gave them (I thought they would "graze" more but they pretty much housed it all in an hour's time). I'm not sure if this is because they're accustomed to eating this way in the time I've been feeding them, but I did feed a pretty considerable amount (a piece probably 3-4x the size of what they usually get). 

I'm going to be a bit more careful about feeding amounts until we figure out whether they're willing to just pick at the stuff throughout the day, or if they're just going to go all piranha on it nonstop and potentially overfeed if given too much. On the plus side, they seem like they like it a lot.


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## Allen Repashy

If they behave at all like the Litoria and other tree frogs I have raised, they will eat their full and then go into a grazing mode and come back regularly to pick at it. They are probably used to their food source being there for only a short period of time, so are acting like they need to eat it as fast as they can...... I seriously doubt they could actually overfeed on it, but understand your concern and lack of experience with the stuff, so TAKE YOUR TIME, and keep the feedback coming!

Don't forget when you portion that 2/3 of what you are looking at is water compared to a dry flake or pellet. So a piece of gel has to be 2x-3x the size of an equivalent dry pellet to actually be the same amount of food.

Allen


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## hypostatic

*Re: Some Guidelines*



Allen Repashy said:


> For you Scientific Minded people out there, please add any comments on what you think might produce valuable feedback.


A well designed experiment is one where you only test one variable, have good controls, and is easily repeatable/has several data points.

As stated you should only be testing one variable. I think the variable Allen wants to test is how a diet of his product affects tadpole development and health. In order to only test this one variable, you would have to eliminate all other variables, and you would do this by treating every subject that is tested the same (ideally, you want every test subject to be exactly the same, and to undergo the exact same conditions during the trial). This means that you would have to feed the tadpoles individually (more than one tadpole in a container adds too much variability), and have them housed in the same containers with the same amount of water, with the same amount of food fed each day and at the same time, with the same amount of water changes, etc...

I think the only control you could have for this experiment is a positive control. A positive control is one which you already know the outcome. One example is a tadpole diet that you've used in the past and you know has good results. You would have to set up a control group (ideally the same size as your experimental group), and you would treat your control group exactly the same as the experimental group, except for the item being fed. As such, whenever you feed one group the other should also be fed. And keeping in the mindset of reducing variability, you should also set up a feeding and water changing schedule, so that every day of the experiment is the same. By treating both groups exactly the same you can attribute any differences between the two groups to the one variable between them -- in this case their food.

Having multiple data points for one experiment is the hardest thing to overcome in this scenario (by which I think Allen is trying to get around by having several people test his product). Our frogs don't produce a lot of offspring, so having a large control group to compare to a large experimental group is out of the question. Large groups are important because they also help reduce variability by taking the average between all the data points. For example if you're testing a group of six tads (two control, and two experimental), and one (or even both) of the tads that was being fed Allen's formula dies, it would be hard to tell if the tad died due to the food (even if the tads are treated exactly the same, they still have a pretty big variable between them: genetics). But by everyone giving their results to Allen, he can then compare them and see the bigger picture.

So in summary, have an experimental and control group, and treat all your tads exactly the same.

I think it would also be a good idea to post your experimental protocol for Allen to see, if you are testing his product. This way you could also get feedback from him and others on your experiment.

Now, I don't know if this is going TOO far, but it would also be really good to keep some sort of journal of your experiment, especially since it is a long term one taking place over several weeks. A good journal has everything written down in it -- what you did that day (eg, when you fed, how much, etc..), and any observations you saw (eg, tadpole #1 seemed particularly eager to eat today, or today all the tads in the control group started developing some color, or today tad#4 developed legs before any in his group but after the other group, or the tads are not eating all the food, or I changed the water because it got STANKY, etc...). It might be too much to ask and too much of a commitment for most people, but it would contribute a lot to the experiment.

(sorry for the long post. i heart science)


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## Allen Repashy

*Re: Some Guidelines*

Great Post.

Yes, the fact that our groups are going to be only a tadpole or two, makes it difficult to get viable data. When I was testing Litoria, I was able to do three groups from one spawn, and each group had 1,000 tadpoles! 

Comparing growth by weighing a hundred random tads from each group gives you pretty measurable results with a tight standard deviation. We do not have that luxury here, so we are going to be gathering feedback from as many people as possible and trying to make sense of it. I don't expect "Scientific" results, but just as importantly, a collection of observations that we can look for trends within.


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## oddlot

I found the gel easy to mix.I prepared it in the same fashion as superfly,using the hotshot to boil the water.I used a quart lid to a chinese soup container for the gel which stands the heat of the boiling water yet gives enough surface area to make a decent size patty.The leucs and vent tads are tearing it up, unfortunately my tads are older than newly hatched until I get some more eggs.It's raining pretty good now so hopefully the frogs will be in the mood.

Lou


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## Azurel

*Re: Some Guidelines*

I got mine in and will be testing it out starting to day.....


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## lauraleellbp

msjinkzd said:


> I am currently working with stiphodon percnopterygionus (goby, obligate algae eater) and feeding the Mazuri line of foods. I also specialize in freshwater invertebrates, including nerite snails, that are obligate grazer/algae eaters. I would be very interested to see if this food applies to those populations.


I'm crazy curious to hear how this goes over for you, Rachel! I'm also prodding an Otocinclus breeder I know (James) to participate...


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## msjinkzd

I am pretty excited about it as well. I am so happy to hear of someone who is making something from excellent quality ingredients! You really do get what you pay for with foods for grazers. This is a very exciting endeavor. I am fairly certain the stiphs will like it, I just hope nerites do. I already know otocinclus and stiphodons like the mazuri diet, which is similar but not quite as high quality ingredients.

THanks for making this available.

thanks Laura for letting me know as well!


----------



## johnc

Allen, a couple of questions on storage for you. How long does the powder stay good? I'm trying to decide whether it's better to make it all up now and store it (either fridge or freezer) or only make what I will use in the next week or two and store the rest in the powder form. What do you think?


----------



## Allen Repashy

johnc said:


> Allen, a couple of questions on storage for you. How long does the powder stay good? I'm trying to decide whether it's better to make it all up now and store it (either fridge or freezer) or only make what I will use in the next week or two and store the rest in the powder form. What do you think?


Hey John,

the dry powder in optimal conditions should be good for two years, but I always tell people to use it in a year to make sure vitamin levels are not depeleted. Especially with products that are very high in protein. Refrigeration is always the best way to keep it fresh.

In a sealed container, it should be good for several weeks in the fridge. I would suggest just making what you think you will use in a couple weeks and refrigerate it and if it looks like you aren't going to use it all, then freeze the remaining if it is worth the effort. It is really just a matter of convenience.


----------



## Allen Repashy

An important thing to note is that water quality is key and because you might be feeding more and have more processed waste, please keep an eye on things. I learned in tests that high ammonia and nitrates can really screw up tadpoles and cause SLS all by it's self. A few weeks ago, a fluidized bed biological filter went out at sandfire and the ammonia and nitrates got quite high.... not enough to kill tadpoles, but at morphing, there were LOTs of frogs with splayed back legs. Tads from the same spawns in an adjacent system, and on the same diet were all fine.


----------



## poison beauties

I may have missed it but is there a recommended water type to use for this? RO, Bottled, Spring, Boiled Tap or any others? Will the water type affect the quality of the gel?

Michael


----------



## Allen Repashy

poison beauties said:


> I may have missed it but is there a recommended water type to use for this? RO, Bottled, Spring, Boiled Tap or any others? Will the water type affect the quality of the gel?
> 
> Michael


I have used everything from distilled, to spring, to tap water and don't see any difference at all as far as the gelling goes.


----------



## pinkertd

Hi Allen. Saw reference to your new food testing over on TPT Forum and am very interested in testing it out on my L144 pleco fry. The L144's are algae and aufwuchs grazers and are extremely sensitive to animal protein based foods and fussy eaters tending to prefer zuchinni over any other foods when algae/aufwuchs is not available. I'll put my order in this morning. I am really excited to see how they react to this food. I have spent a small fortune trying all sorts of "algae" based foods to have them refuse most of them. 

Debbi
Breeding L144 Long Finned Blue Eyed Plecos


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## Azurel

I will say this though I won't be mixing the meat pie and then putting in the microwave to heat it up again.....Doing it that way stinks, also got me in trouble with the wife.....Will be doing it on the stove top from this point out....So far I like the solidity of the gel much firmer then the gel food I have used in the past( mostly reefing). Will feed out for the first time this afternoon.


----------



## ladyfaile15

i do have to agree that it doesnt smell very nice (either one) i fed out the first bit last night. will update as we go!

jamie


----------



## Allen Repashy

ladyfaile15 said:


> i do have to agree that it doesnt smell very nice (either one) i fed out the first bit last night. will update as we go!
> 
> jamie


Unlike my other products, I definitely didn't formulate this one to smell good, especially if you don't like the smell of seafood or green algae (which I agree, I don't like either) 

If you are an algae eater or carnivore, I think you would find it a good smell 

I look forward to some more feedback.

Allen


----------



## Azurel

Allen Repashy said:


> Unlike my other products, I definitely didn't formulate this one to smell good, especially if you don't like the smell of seafood or green algae (which I agree, I don't like either)
> 
> If you are an algae eater or carnivore, I think you would find it a good smell
> 
> I look forward to some more feedback.
> 
> Allen


Not a big deal being made on the stove....But mixing the water and mix before putting in the microwave= Stinky....LOL. I made the algea based stuff and mixed the water and mix in a small dish and it didn't stink much at all....

I feed the Meat gel to 5 R. lamasi tads will see how they react to it....


----------



## johnc

You guys need to invest in a kettle. So useful for fruit fly cultures and this.


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## Allen Repashy

Any feeding response reports? A few of you said you would try it over the weekend.


----------



## Azurel

johnc said:


> You guys need to invest in a kettle. So useful for fruit fly cultures and this.


Good idea John I didn't even think of that....


----------



## johnc

I just made up my batches tonight to start tomorrow. I'm going to start with 3 sets of _Phyllobates_ tadpoles, and each set has several of different ages (obviously same ages are in the other sets). They share a common water body and are separated by dividers. Set 1 gets NLS Thera+, set 2 gets Allen's algae forumla, and set 3 gets meat pie. Depending on how this goes I may expand it to _Ranitomeya_.

PS: I like the odor, but I like seafood. It actually reminds me of the fish paste I sometimes got on sandwiches at school in the 80s.


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## D3monic

I am going to make a small batch of each tonight. I have a Vanzolinii tadpole that I will try the Carnivore on and a uakarii tad that will be hatching out any day now that I will try the algae. If I find any more tads from my Pums I will pull one and try the Carnivore with it....its worth a try at least. 

I will strictly feed the above tads the Tadpole diet and use them in comparison to the tads fed strictly tadpole bites and algae.....The only constant will be water and duckweed for nitrate control. With duckweed roots being a consistent snack for all tadpoles. 

Obviously if I feed out until meta this will be a long process. 

I take it you want us to post our results and opinions in this thread?


----------



## Allen Repashy

Yes, 

Please post your feedback here unless you have a specific issue that isn't relevant for others. I am looking forward to some early feedback on feeding response as I think a few out there should have it in the water by now.

Also, due to feedback on here and the planted tank forum, I am going to drop the "Algae Eater Gel" from the Soilent Green description and have changed the description to "Aufwuchs Gel" as this more appropriately describes the combination of Algae, Crustacean, Mollusk, and Fish.

I will change the Algae Eater Gel name to another formula I have that is an all plant (Vegan) protein based Algae formula for obligate algae eaters which will be more applicable to fish than most tads.

Cheers, Allen


----------



## oddlot

My vent and leuc tads eagerly chow at first then go back and graze often.I raise these tads individually in there own cup.I find that you need a very little piece to start then add more as they need it.It seems to last a good amount of time in the water.I've had to change the water a little more until I dialed in the right amount plus they seem to eat more(so more waste).So far so good!

I don't mind the smell, besides the tads seem to dig it!


Lou


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## D3monic

Made my first batch tonight. My wife walked in the door a few seconds after the microwave stopped and in a very strong tone asked "WTF is that smell!?" I thought maybe it was the diaper I had just changed until I walked into the kitchen...ewww! I turned on the vent and by the time it cooled it didnt smell so bad. Its mainly during the heating process. 

I was a little concerned with the Krill since I have a shellfish allergy. No matter how hard I tried I still inhaled a little dust. Nothing life threatening but definatly got my system going (or possibly in my head) . I notice both formulas have krill in them. 

With Shellfish being the number one allergen in adults perhaps it could be left out of one or a allergen label? I know its in the tadpole bites I have been using but I don't usually inhale their dust or consume them. 

Not to mention the contamination of any utensils used to make it. In my case it was our glass liquid measure cup (before I read ingredients) 

I can always use a resperator when making it but that seems a bit extreme.

the Uakari tadpole just hit the water so in a day or two i will try the Algae blend on it. ...sorry not much for new tadpoles. Most of my frogs have quite breeding since my wife started watching a horribly screechy little girl.

Has anyone out there attempted to feed obligates with this? Would be interesting to at least try with a freshly hatched pum.


----------



## Azurel

All tads are raised individually..... R. lamasi tads seemed to really eat it a couple even went at it as soon as it hit bottom. The continued to eat for a short period of time and then moved on. The half hour or so I watched the tads the R. imitator 'Varadero' did not eat at it. But a couple hours later I checked the tad cups again and you could tell that the tads had been eating on the small chunk. 24hr or so later there was no chunk left in any of the cups and there was some detritus left from the piece of meat pie. So either it began to break down and fall apart or the tads were really eating at it. Will post more later.


----------



## Colleen53

I am learning from all these posts so far!! Made my batch yesterday see below, but didn't want to smell the aroma, so I made a big batch of spagetti sauce. Problem solved with the Soilent Green Gel SMELL!!










Would appreciate to know from others how much they use. I am starting off with a big size "booger" (well it looks like it!). So far so good on the little guys. I have azureus and leucs to feed. However, I will only feed a few of this to them and have my other food available for the rest of the tads.


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## PeanutbuttER

I haven't started using it yet, but I promise to get back to you on this! I'm just waiting for some fresh eggs/tads so that I can give you results from feeding only one or the other (as opposed to feeding to the tads I have now which are already over half grown anyhow). Just an update so you didn't think I was enjoying my "freebies"


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## ladyfaile15

im testing this on some half grown varadero tads, and i just had a trio of Borja Ridge vent tads hatch. one tad will get sg, one the mp, and the other my regular food for the entire tadpole stage. so far they all seem to eat it fine, and it doesnt seem to cloud/affect water quality 

jamie


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## johnc

Is it me or does meat pie not hold together as well as soylent green? Would using less water make it more robust Allen?


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## Allen Repashy

Hi John,

They should be the same. Make sure you are cooking it long enough too. If you have soft spots then for sure this is the case. The less water you use, the firmer it will be for sure. Your only limit is that it will get so thick you can't pour it. If it comes out soft from not enough temp, you can always reheat and it will re-gell. Are the tadpoles shredding it up? I am running a test right now where I have had blocks of each in water for a little less than 24 hours. They are all still the same shape I put them in at. The Meat pie might be slightly less firm but I don't see much difference.

Let me know what you think and if anyone else has a similar experience.


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## johnc

Thanks Allen. I think I'm making it in such small batches that the boiling water is no longer boiling when the powder hits it. I suspected as much but you've confirmed it. I need to restart!


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## Allen Repashy

Yeah, a small volume of water cools very quickly. especially if the cup is cool. You really are best off using the microwave if possible, or adding the powder to the hot water while it is still on the stove. 
With the 2:1 ratio, there is a lot of powder and it can cool the water quite quickly when it hits it, and if this is the case, you won't get enough heat to cause the gelling. 

Second choice if you can't find a minute to do it in the kitchen because someone doesn't like the smell, would be to boil the water in a coffee cup in the microwave.... then add the powder and mix. This way, the cup its self is holding a lot of heat which should help quite a bit.

Allen


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## D3monic

fed some out to my geosesarma sp. They seem to like it as well.


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## D3monic

Here you go Allen I think think this speaks for it self as far as these guys are concerned.

Bi color crab eating - YouTube


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## johnc

Wow that crab is happy with that food.

Allen - I took your advice. I took the 2 batches I'd already made, added a little extra water and then stuck them in the microwave until it started boiling. Took it out, stirred it well and let it sit and perfect gel.


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## D3monic

johnc said:


> Wow that crab is happy with that food.


apparently they all where. I feed out two large chunks last night and they where all gone this morning. Only 5 crabs in the tank. When I turned the lights on this morning there was two fighting over an empty bowl.


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## Allen Repashy

D3monic said:


> apparently they all where. I feed out two large chunks last night and they where all gone this morning. Only 5 crabs in the tank. When I turned the lights on this morning there was two fighting over an empty bowl.


Five crabs must really be fat after a couple chunks like that. Once they get used to a feeding time, you will find them waiting for it. We are going to need a new video of all five crabs eating and fighting over it next time 

Thanks for the video, It is worth a thousand words .... make that million. I actually put my invert formula up on the site to sample and this should go over better than the meat pie as it has more squid which most inverts go nuts for (anything mollusk drives them nuts) it also has higher carotenoid levels.


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## D3monic

Cool, just ordered a sample. I will let you know how they like it.


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## Azurel

Found a new R.lamasi tad today.....I will feed him the algea based food exclusively this way I can watch from the start how well he does or doesn't feed on the green stuff.


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## johnc

I've been feeding _Dendrobates tinctorius_ and _Phyllobates terribilis_ tadpoles on the two diets for the past 4 days now. Obviously I can't make any conclusions about growth rates, but I will comment on feeding response as Allen requested before. 

The _D. tinctorius_ aggressively eat the two diets. They will snap at each other if another tadpole comes up to the morsel being fed upon. 

The _P. terribilis_ tadpoles are less enthused with the diets. I only see them nibble on it occasionally - they don't seem to seek it out the minute it hits the bottom as they do with Thera+. I haven't ruled out that this may be due to the test conditions but as I said, I can't draw any conclusions as yet. I'm going to set up another control in case this is the problem.

I'm running these trials in conjunction with my normal tadpole food, New Life Spectrum Thera+. Normally I'll drop in enough pellets of Thera+ to last the tadpoles about 2 days. I really value that I can always tell when the Thera+ is gone because the pellets last the whole time while they're not eaten, i.e. they last at least 2 days before breaking down. I cannot say the same for Meat Pie and Soylent Green. Both gels begin to break down on their own within a few hours, and are generally just powder on the bottom of the container within 24 hours. As far as tadpoles go, this somewhat negates the point of having a solid piece of food bigger than pellets, in my opinion. I could understand how this would be less of a concern if feeding hordes of treefrog tadpoles, for example, since the food would vanish so quickly, but generally I (and I'm sure everyone else) doesn't raise 100+ tadpoles in a container.

All of that being said, I intend to see this through and see what effect the diets have on tadpole growth, color, etc, before making any firm conclusions.


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## Allen Repashy

Hi John,

Interesting observations. I am surprised to hear you say it is breaking down in a few hours as all my tests show it stable for more than 24 hours. Are you sure the tadpoles aren't picking it apart? The main difference with my testing to date, is that I am testing it as a block and haven't cut up small pieces and tested it that way. (that's why I am here) I would be curious to see if others are having the same observations. I can easily increase the gel hardness for more stability but haven't had any comments like this that would suggest it was needed.

I also haven't seen a pellet that remains stable for two days, and I would question it's nutritional value at much beyond a few hours. I had a look at the Thera + formula and it lists wheat flour as the third ingredient , so I would guess it has 10%-15% or more wheat in it which acts as a great binder because of the high gluten content of the product. (which I am not a fan of) The question is whether there is much left nutritionally after a few hours, or you are just left with empty binders with broken down nutrients around them. Most pellet manufacturers say to only feed what will be eaten within a few minutes.
But if it works for you, it works. I am not here to knock other products, just compare properties.

Keep the feedback coming! I would like to hear from others on these observations.

Allen


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## gnod

is the testing beta products closed for now? i've got some crabs i'd like to try giving these to..


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## Allen Repashy

Yes, 

Closed for now. I had it open for more than two weeks, so you missed the boat I am afraid. I sent out an insane amount of samples and think there is enough out there to get a good round of feedback. If changes are made based on the feedback, then I will make samples available of the new version.


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## gnod

darn, i should've ordered it last week when i had the chance! 
ok, will be on the look out  

thanks!


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## johnc

Thanks Allen.

Regarding the stability of the gel, I use Ed's drinking straw method to cut little chunks. I've already made up the gel so that it's a layer of about one quarter of an inch. 

I am pretty certain that the gel dissolves on its own in 24 hours, at least in those chunks. I've checked on it several times over that period to see what happens. I've got a 12 year research chemistry background so I've got a decent eye for this kind of thing.

Regarding the Thera+, you may be right, but the integrity of pellet's structure is such that I would be it retains a lot of nutritional value longer than a powder or a flake. I've made such arguments for pellets on here before - it's sound physical chemistry because more surface area = vastly increase dissolution time. Logically a robust pellet should hold up far longer in this respect than a powder. 

In my case, since the gel is effectively dissolving into a powder then it obviously leans more towards the properties of flakes and powders with regard to nutrient loss. 

I hope this is constructive criticism. And as I said earlier, I haven't drawn any conclusions regarding nutrition.


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## Allen Repashy

Hey John,

I am not doubting your observations at all. Just pointed out that I hadn't tested small chunks. 

Is this issue with meat pie, or soilent green, or both?

After your post about meat pie not being as firm, I mixed up a couple more batches side by side using the same cooking time and amount and did notice the meat pie isn't as solid as the soilent green. 

I am thinking it is due to the higher protein content of the meat pie and lack of cellulose (that comes from the algae) which can help make a firmer gel. 

I made a few adjustments and have the meat pie firmer than the soilent green, so it is an easy fix..... if it makes it behave better.

I totally agree with you on pellets vs. flake or powder as far as nutrient retention. water soluble vitamins dissolve out of flakes in a matter of seconds once they hit the water.

Allen


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## Ed

johnc said:


> Regarding the Thera+, you may be right, but the integrity of pellet's structure is such that I would be it retains a lot of nutritional value longer than a powder or a flake. I've made such arguments for pellets on here before - it's sound physical chemistry because more surface area = vastly increase dissolution time. Logically a robust pellet should hold up far longer in this respect than a powder.


John,

The stability of the pellets are probably the result of the extrusion process fixing the stability of the components. This does not mean that it is better for the tadpoles. There has been a lot of studies on fish diets regarding extruded pellets (see for example (not free access) 
Chemical changes of extrusion to fish type pellets (Effect of extrusion cooking temperature on the microstructure of extruded pellets - YOSHITOMI - 2004 - Fisheries Science - Wiley Online Library) 

How it changes growth in trout. (not free access) 

ScienceDirect - Aquaculture : Effect of extrusion processing and steam pelleting diets on pellet durability, pellet water absorption, and the physiological response of rainbow trout (Salmo gairdneri R.)

ScienceDirect - Aquaculture : Effect of wheat bran replacement of wheat middlings in extrusion processed (floating) diets on the growth of juvenile rainbow trout (Salmo gairdneri)

There are a wide variety of animals that do not do well on most extruded diets (wolves and bears are two famous examples as they cannot digest the changes to the wheat structures and it gives them diarrhea (domestic dogs do not tend to have issues for a number of reasons)). 

Ed


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## Allen Repashy

John, 

One last question.

Did you freeze it, or use it fresh. I haven't considered how freezing and thawing might effect stability.... not that this is the issue here, just a concept, as someone on the planted tank fish forum made this comment.

Allen


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## johnc

Interesting points gentlemen. 

Allen: I think there's a slight difference in break down time but it's marginal. I can't remember which went first. I'll keep a better eye on it next time.

Ed: I suppose that the extrusion process could change the chemistry of the food doesn't surprise me much but I wonder how much of an effect it has on tads. I would imagine it would be similar to the trout, but I'll have to read those papers from work tomorrow. Thanks for the links!


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## Allen Repashy

Anyone have some more feedback out there? there should be some longer term feeding response and growth observations by now.

I created a google spreadsheet that is editable for the folks who are testing the formulas on tropical fish, and collecting some great short term feeding response data.

For those of you who have tried it on various frog species, Please add your tadpoles to this spreadsheet. It will help users at least see what species are eating what diet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HVxUWE0S2YyT2xUS0pKNXYzcV9qaXc&hl=en_US#gid=0

Cheers, Allen


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## johnc

I've got some observations that I am formulating (no pun) into something solid but I really would like to give it another week or so before I start making any conclusions. In fairness to the frogs, a large part of the proof is going to be based on size at metamorphosis, time to metamorphosis, and froglet vigor. I'm also curious about color intensity. 

Right now I will say that there is a healthy feeding response, though my _Phyllobates_ tadpoles who joined the trials mid-growth took a long time to develop a taste for it (I should say "them" since I'm trialling both diets against Thera+). Hatchlings had no such problems.

I will have gathered enough observations to make some preliminary conclusions in a week or so.


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## sports_doc

Allen Repashy said:


> If you want a high protein diet without the Chlorella and Algae, I WILL have that available soon. Right now, a side by side comparison of THIS product will be a great starting point and I think perform very well.
> 
> Allen


Correct me if I am wrong didnt Kyle back in the day do a nice DB experiment with tads and diet??

My recall was that 'tad bites' produced the best results, and I believe a pure algae diet was one of the ones tested head to head as well.

Less SLS, larger tads at morph ect...

Corey, what are you using now? is it home made or commercially available.

I am very interested in your developments Allen, keep them coming....a little tweak here, a tweak there...soon I see a 'perfect' formula available!


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## Azurel

So far after feeding both R. imitator 'Varadero' and R. lamasi 'Orange' the lamasi have a larger or more vigorous feeding response to the meat pie compared to the response of the varadero tads. The lamasi seem to seek the small pieces out sooner then the varadero tads. Although they both eat it the varadero tads have seemed to take a little longer to get a response. Three of the eight lamasi tads were fed nothing before starting this test and were the ones with the largest response to the meat pie.

I am on vacation this week so I will be able toget more observations.


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## tclipse

feeding response has been great, all tads seem healthy (azureus & intermedius with meat pie, hyla versicolor with soilent green) thus far.


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## johnc

I think I'm about ready to finish my trials. I'll post my conclusions in the next few days.


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## inka4040

Overall, I like this stuff. It elicits a great feeding response from my goldfish. They're getting a mix of the soylent and the meat, which is really convenient because it allows me to mix different ratios for their changing needs. I also tried it out in my hillstream goby tank which contains a number of obligate algae eaters, but only with the vegan. They were not as enthused about it as they usually are about the mazuri gel I normally feed. I'm willing to feed it exclusively for a bit longer and see if it's not because of the novelty, though. My only qualm about it is how quickly it sets up. It seems if I even pause while stirring it, it immediately begins to solidify. Because my usual method with gels involves pouring into a ziplock, flattening, scoring, and freezing after setup, this stuff will have solidified into loose chunks before I even have it all in the bag. Unlike other gels, where it comes together into one piece, I end up with bunch of smaller chunks that don't bond back together after flattening. The final product ends up being distinct ribbons almost. Is there something I can do in the process to keep it from setting up so quickly?


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## johnc

I can elaborate on any of this if you want to ask specific questions, but here are my final thoughts. I ran this trial mainly using _Phyllobates terribilis_ tadpoles of a bunch of ages, from newly hatched to half grown, etc. I used Soylent Green, Meat Pie, and NLS Thera+ for comparison.

Feeding response is decent. In fairness, the _Dendrobates tinctorius_ tadpoles I threw the leftovers exhibited a better response to the Repashy products than the Terribs did.

I like the consistency of the gel, but I did find that both meat pie and soylent green "liquified" within about 36 hours, so there isn't much room for leaving uneaten food around. It leaves a residue behind which the tadpoles still eat though. 

I know the thinking on other foods is that they're not good after a similar amount of time, but my scientific background screams to me that pellets like the Thera+ must be retaining something useful for longer than powders or flakes, or liquified former gels. One thing I like about pellets is that I know clearly when the food is all gone. I've said this before.

Regarding growth rates, I didn't see a distinct difference between the Meat Pie and the Thera+, but I believe the Soylent Green induced a higher growth rate in my Terrib tadpoles. Tadpoles from the same clutches appeared to grow at a higher rate when compared to their clutch mates receiving the other foods. I'm not sure what to make of this.

From a convenience point of view, once you've made the gels up, they're relatively easy to deal with and store. I found myself making a 1/4 inch layer of gel and using a sharp knife to slice pieces out for feeding. 

Would I purchase these Repashy foods at the normal retail price? If I had a lot more tadpoles I think it would make more sense economically than the pellets I currently use. Qualitatively, they appear to be at least as nutritious in my trial as the pellets. I'm not sure I will switch from the pellets already mentioned, but I am not going to throw the Repashy samples away either .

Thanks Allen!

-John


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## Allen Repashy

Hi John,

Thanks for your detailed and well thought out response. Some very interesting points. I am glad to hear that the products are holding their own against your favorite product. Your observations on teh Soilent Green are very interesting..... The product has less total protein than the Meat Pie, but it sounds like it must have something else that makes a difference.... most likely the algae..... but I have no idea how to quantify it!

Anyone else have some long term feedback. It has been a bit quiet in this thread.

Cheers, 

Allen


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## tclipse

I would tend to echo what John has seen, tadpoles being fed my normal regimen vs the Repashy have been growing at approximately the same pace.. however my normal regimen is VERY varied, so I think it speaks to the nutrition/quality of the samples. 

I'm interested to see in whether final froglet size/health/color is any different, but that will take some time. 

Either way, I'm going to split off a group of the next wave of tadpoles and feed them with a combination of my regimen and Repashy, to see how that works out. 

I'm sure I'll end up adding this to my tadpole regimen in the end, as I like to feed a smorgasboard and this food certainly won't hurt. For those who only want to feed 1-2 types of food, I would say that Meat Pie seems to work very well as a standalone.


----------



## Allen Repashy

This weekend I am going to mix up a new batch that should be a bit firmer once gelled at the request of several folks. If it works out good. I will start offering it for sale in the next few weeks. Please keep the long term feedback coming!

Allen


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## ladyfaile15

i have had three out of the four varadero tads i was testing this on morph out. i have seen a slight improvement in color (orange) vs the pellets on both the mp & sg. the tads fed either sg or mp also seem to be just a hair larger than the pelleted tad. i am still feeding out a few borja ridge tads, will keep you posted on them


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## holidayhanson

Sorry if this was posted earlier in this thread. 

I remember reading about a spreadsheet for recording data on tadpoles. 

Does anyone have a good one they use or can send out? What data do you collect? Dates? Benchmarks? Temps? 

I just collected my first eggs about a month ago and quickly realize how a log of each egg would help track success rates and failures. 

Thanks.


----------



## frogfreak

I'm just getting started on mine. I decided to do small batches because I have little product and didn't want to screw it up. 

I used 3 tbsp water - 1 tbsp product. I used a salt shaker to mix it in and the lid of a petri dish.




Shake well.



Nuked for 25 seconds and poured.



I tossed it the fridge for 15. Then I used a small pickle fork, went around the edges and it fell right out. They ended up be 1/4" thick.



Super Green on the left. Meat Pie on the right. I have some Tads that are ready to hatch out shortly and will be feeding them this exclusively.


----------



## tclipse

How's this working out for everyone? 


Froglets being fed these vs. my other regimen don't seem to have any quantifiable differences thus far.... but I haven't had any issues at all using it as a standalone food. 

I have some anthonyi in the water and am interested to see if there will be any differences in adult color, as I've heard tad diet is a factor in bringing out the reds in Epipedobates as adults... Obviously, that's going to be a while though.


----------



## Allen Repashy

Just an interesting note.

I have a customer in Singapore who has been raising Ceratophrys species from metamorphosis on the "Meat Pie". Had no clue they were doing it until they sent me a couple videos.











Allen


----------



## JJuchems

I have set-up two clutches from the same frogs (Powder Blue Tincs). These frogs are regular producers and both clutches consisted of 6 tadpoles. I used the three feeding regiments below on two tadpoles of each clutch. 

Group A: "Soilent Green"

Group B: Sera Micron and Chlorella 50/50 powder mix. 

Group C: Sera Micron and HBH Tadpole Bites fed every other feeding in a rotation. 

All froglets are raised with an 16oz cups with 50/50 distilled and tap water. We have extremely hard water so I try and cut the lime issues. I am feeding Group B, as it is my preferred method. All containers are kept at room temperature which ranges from 74-78F degrees. 

My observations: No observable differences in morphing size between A and B, while C morphs quicker (by about 2-3 weeks), but smaller. I stopped C method for this vary reason but wanted to do a more side by side. 

Water quality, "Soilent Green" does not tint the water or seems to make the water change be needed (not done in this test) compared to group A and C. 

I like the product, but not sure how often I will use it. For feeding individual cups I still prefer Method B as I shake it in the cups with a spice shaker. For communally kept tadpoles I would use "Soilent Green." It would be easy to make cubes to toss in, over having to make it then cut cubes to be used in each cup. I look forward to try it with Red-Eyeds, "Blue" White's, and other tree frogs. This looks to be my food of choice since it will not get filtered out like the powder formulas.

EDIT:

For those interested I use 350mL of water per a container. I did measure tads, as best as I could from the bottom of the containers. When I compare ingredients and feeding methods of the past, I do not get the same morphing size if Chlorella is absent.


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## motydesign

Allen,
when is the finial report coming out? i may be interested in picking some up in my next +cal order


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## Allen Repashy

This project has spawned a life of it's own and I have been working intensively with some fish breeders and importers over the last months and the line has grown to seven formulas now. The fish hobbyists really seem to be going nuts for the stuff and it has been fun taking a bit of a sidetrack from herps. 

I am finalizing four formulas this week and they will be off to the printer next week. Product should be shipping by January 15th.

First four formulas are:

Soilent Green (Aufwuchs formula)
Shrimp Souffle (scavenger formula)
Community Plus (omnivore formula)
Meat Pie (carnivore formula)

End of January:

Hi-Pro Gold (vegan herbivore formula)
Super Green (vegan algae formula)
SuperPig Gel (Carotenoid formula) 

Cheers, Allen


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## motydesign

thats great news Allen.
Are you going to put a user guide for these foods together?
Ranitomeya = Soilent Green
Adelphobates = Meat pie
or something like this?
to be honest im just a little in the dark with what product to use ? any way im excited to use another of your quality products! just need to know which to use for the best results.


----------



## JJuchems

Allen Repashy said:


> This project has spawned a life of it's own and I have been working intensively with some fish breeders and importers over the last months and the line has grown to seven formulas now. The fish hobbyists really seem to be going nuts for the stuff and it has been fun taking a bit of a sidetrack from herps.
> 
> I am finalizing four formulas this week and they will be off to the printer next week. Product should be shipping by January 15th.
> 
> First four formulas are:
> 
> Soilent Green (Aufwuchs formula)
> Shrimp Souffle (scavenger formula)
> Community Plus (omnivore formula)
> Meat Pie (carnivore formula)
> 
> End of January:
> 
> Hi-Pro Gold (vegan herbivore formula)
> Super Green (vegan algae formula)
> SuperPig Gel (Carotenoid formula)
> 
> Cheers, Allen


Good! I am looking forward to using meatpie on my pacman frogs and red-tail cat fish. I hate doing water changes due to feeding live fish. I would like to try the Community Plus on my Fly River Turtles. They are interesting feeders and it would be interesting to see if they will take a gel food added to their diet.


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## Allen Repashy

motydesign said:


> thats great news Allen.
> Are you going to put a user guide for these foods together?
> Ranitomeya = Soilent Green
> Adelphobates = Meat pie
> or something like this?
> to be honest im just a little in the dark with what product to use ? any way im excited to use another of your quality products! just need to know which to use for the best results.


I am afraid there is no user guide. Only trial, error, and feedback will determine what works best for different species. I built an online spreadsheet so people could share their experiences and got ZERO input from the frog community, and quite a bit from the fish community. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HVxUWE0S2YyT2xUS0pKNXYzcV9qaXc&hl=en_US#gid=0 . 

Allen


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## motydesign

ooo sorry Allen, seems we dropped the ball on it here. maybe some people on this thread can go back and retro enter some data for all of us that want to use the product.


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## jeosbo01

My results got a little messed up due to several out of town trips but anectdotally here are my results:
I set ups 3 groups of orange terribilis tads and fed each group exclusively either Meat Pie, Soilent Green or HBH Tadpole Bites.
All 3 groups did well and all grew and morphed into perfect looking froglets. All seem to have the same vigor and coloration I have come to expect from terribilis froglets. The main difference I found was morph times. The ones fed MP morphed around 6 days faster then the SG group and the SG group was about 8 days earlier then the HBH Tad Bites group. So the ones on MP morphed 2 weeks earlier then the ones on Tad Bites, but morphed out at the normal size and vigor...I will definately be doing more work with it!

I also used them with several species of fish (discus, blue ahli, Lae. thayeri, Geo. brasiliensis, A. thomasi, Yellow Watchman Gobies, Occelaris clowns, Pink skunk clowns, Maroon clowns) and had good results with most. The majority of the fish I have offered it to took it quickly and I noted continued good nest sizes with all that were currently breeding while I fed it. 

The only issue I ran into with the food it that any uneaten food MUST be removed in a reasonable amount of time. This seems to be great food, but will quickly and viciously foul water if any goes uneaten...this isn't a big problem with the fish as you can feed an appropriate amount and be done with it. For tads however you must find a good balance between feeding enough to allow grazing but not enough to let it foul the water. I typically don't change tad water but found myself doing so regularly until I found the right balance with this food.

In short...I need to do more work with the food before I can make any real statements but short term testing makes it look very promising to me!


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## JJuchems

jeosbo01 said:


> The only issue I ran into with the food it that any uneaten food MUST be removed in a reasonable amount of time. This seems to be great food, but will quickly and viciously foul water if any goes uneaten...this isn't a big problem with the fish as you can feed an appropriate amount and be done with it. For tads however you must find a good balance between feeding enough to allow grazing but not enough to let it foul the water. I typically don't change tad water but found myself doing so regularly until I found the right balance with this food.


This is where I find feeding "SG" to be tedious as I have to slice it out of a petri dish, as sprinkling powder is much quicker if you have large quantities of tad containers. I did not do water changes, as I cut small slivers. I did not weigh my feedings, and that would be the most accurate look at a comparison. I would like to try it on Phyllobates vittatus raised communicably.

To drop a chunk in 50+ White's Tree Frog tads I see no issues, just time consuming for PDF tads.


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## jeosbo01

JJuchems said:


> This is where I find feeding "SG" to be tedious as I have to slice it out of a petri dish, as sprinkling powder is much quicker if you have large quantities of tad containers. I did not do water changes, as I cut small slivers. I did not weigh my feedings, and that would be the most accurate look at a comparison. I would like to try it on Phyllobates vittatus raised communicably.
> 
> To drop a chunk in 50+ White's Tree Frog tads I see no issues, just time consuming for PDF tads.


I noticed it with both foods but it was much more pronounced with the SG. I normally raise terribilis in several gallons of water and think that would help quite a bit. For this trial run I used much smaller containers.
I don't know that I would put the time into using it for tincs and such (anything raised individually) but may reconsider if I keep getting good results from it.


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## Allen Repashy

Thanks guys,

I have actually made quite a few adjustments since sending out the original samples. I increased the finished firmness by more than 50%, which significantly improved longevity At the same time, I made it less viscous immediately after it's heated, which gives you more pour time before it begins to gel. 

Cheers, Allen


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## JJuchems

Allen Repashy said:


> Thanks guys,
> 
> I have actually made quite a few adjustments since sending out the original samples. I increased the finished firmness by more than 50%, which significantly improved longevity At the same time, I made it less viscous immediately after it's heated, which gives you more pour time before it begins to gel.
> 
> Cheers, Allen


Firmness is a big plus. I did not have issues with pour time, but that could be from being experienced in pouring agar plates. I mixed it in pyrex and poured into Kimble glass petri dishes.


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## jeosbo01

I also had no issues with pouring but an increase in firmness is very interesting to me...


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## Allen Repashy

jeosbo01 said:


> I also had no issues with pouring but an increase in firmness is very interesting to me...


With the first version, you could make the gel firmer by using less water, but then it got really thick..... so now, you can get that firmness and a lot more, but still retain the ability to pour it. The directions will also change from 2:1 water/powder to 3:1.


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## hypostatic

Allen Repashy said:


> I am afraid there is no user guide. Only trial, error, and feedback will determine what works best for different species. I built an online spreadsheet so people could share their experiences and got ZERO input from the frog community, and quite a bit from the fish community. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HVxUWE0S2YyT2xUS0pKNXYzcV9qaXc&hl=en_US#gid=0 .
> 
> Allen


Yeah man. I'm a data junkie, and I was disappointed when I looked at the spreadsheet and there were no frogs. I did a double take and reorganized it by species... and it was like mostly zebrafish or something...


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## JJuchems

Allen Repashy said:


> I am afraid there is no user guide. Only trial, error, and feedback will determine what works best for different species. I built an online spreadsheet so people could share their experiences and got ZERO input from the frog community, and quite a bit from the fish community. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HVxUWE0S2YyT2xUS0pKNXYzcV9qaXc&hl=en_US#gid=0 .
> 
> Allen


When you introduced it to the Dendroboard community I had my frogs in dry season, breeding season is now in full swing.


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## motydesign

jeosbo01 said:


> The only issue I ran into with the food it that any uneaten food MUST be removed in a reasonable amount of time. This seems to be great food, but will quickly and viciously foul water if any goes uneaten...this isn't a big problem with the fish as you can feed an appropriate amount and be done with it. For tads however you must find a good balance between feeding enough to allow grazing but not enough to let it foul the water. I typically don't change tad water but found myself doing so regularly until I found the right balance with this food.
> 
> In short...I need to do more work with the food before I can make any real statements but short term testing makes it look very promising to me!


so now im curious what size pieces did you feed and how long did you leave before pulling, then what was your feed frequency?


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## jeosbo01

motydesign said:


> so now im curious what size pieces did you feed and how long did you leave before pulling, then what was your feed frequency?


I probably fed a cube that was about 3/16" every other day (for 3 tads). I would try to feed in the morning and pull uneaten food at night, then not feed on the next day. I tried feeding smaller amounts every day and they didn't seem to take it as fast, which led to water quality issues.


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## Allen Repashy

Ok guys, I will officially launch the gels on Feb 1st but I have already started shipping it to dealers.

Check out these great videos a fish guy (Ted Judy) made about using them!

Allen


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## tclipse

Allen Repashy said:


> I am afraid there is no user guide. Only trial, error, and feedback will determine what works best for different species. I built an online spreadsheet so people could share their experiences and got ZERO input from the frog community, and quite a bit from the fish community. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...HVxUWE0S2YyT2xUS0pKNXYzcV9qaXc&hl=en_US#gid=0 .
> 
> Allen


Allen, if you'd like some feedback on several frog species to add to the spreadsheet, shoot me a PM and I'd be happy to give you some. I've tried it with ~6-7 species/morphs thus far.


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## hypostatic

Where can the gels be purchased? They're not up on the Rapashy website


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## Allen Repashy

I haven't gotten around to putting them up on my retail site but they are available from quite a few Fish Retailers, Breeders, and hobbyists... Try searching the following dealers on the web. Ted Judy, Swiss Tropicals, msjinkzd, kens fish, your fish stuff... those are a few off the top of my head. I will make a post here when I get around to adding it to my retail site.

Cheers, Allen


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