# mixing leucs



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Why is it alright to mix any old leuc? (Not referring to new BG additions)

In the wild they inhabit a wider range/habitat than the tinc morphs. We harp on the importance of keeping the tinc morphs from mixing or creating hybrids. 
So why in our hobby where we harp on keeping localities of different darts of auratus, tincs, imitators, pumilio, etc............from mixing and and creating hybrids, is it alright to take any 'nominant' luec and breed them?


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

No replies with 50+ views. Has anyone wondered this same thing?
We are so concerned with keeping tincs morphs from crossing which occupy such a limited range, when the leucs span several countries.

So what is it with our hobby that allows all luecs to interbreed and is being strict on keeping morphs as morphs?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

jason. i view the thread and rated it for ya, as i think you have a very valid point, but am not the expert on morphs so i couldnt reply. it makes me wonder as well. kristy


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i was just thinking about this sort of thing, well not exactly, . . . just the whole mixing morphs thing really, i dont really understand why its not right to mix tinc moprhs other than for the reason of confusion, i mean, they are in such a limited area 350 km radius, that only 217 mile radius... i would be really confused if these different morphs didnt breed in the wild, especially the ones that are so alike, why wouldn't they, they are the same species in a geographical range of 217 miles, it makes sense. I'm not saying that im for or against crossing morphs in captivity, but im an individual, and just because its the "stance" im not just gonna jump on the band wagon and start bashing people, ya kno. i do alot of reseach on these animals wild breeding behavior and i still have way more to do til i can find some closure on this. I just feel that there is way to much that we dont know about these animals, and alot of people i feel think that they already know everything, but really no1 knows everything. they may know some information about their wild breeding habbits, but the bulk of the breeding/interbreeding that they speak of, is coming from captive care. I actually read on a some zoos website today a little piece about the geographic range, and it was saying that ..... 

"Dendrobates tinctorius inhabit isolated patches of moist forests among drier savannahs and mountains. SOME of these populations are becoming reproductively isolated, meaning that there is no exchange of animals, or reproduction, between populations. With time, each group could become its own, isolated species. Most scientists consider the blue poison dart frog, D. azureus, to be a distinct species that evolved from an isolated population of D. tinctorius. Some, however, do not recognize D. azureus as its own species, and include it as an extreme variety of the dyeing poison dart frog. " that was coming from J.Walls of Jewels of the RF

with all this being said, i just find it very hard to believe that Tinctorius dont interbreed in the wild, i really do, but for the sake of this hobby, and keeping peoples minds at ease and not causing mass confusion i do think it is best to not cross morphs, but id ppl didnt care about a title of a morph and just wanted a tinctorius and they were all priced very similar say....... 45-55 bucks, not 35 dollars for a cobalt and 125 for a regina, they are the same frog!!!(dendrobates tinctorius) (just different colors), then yeah id be for crossing morphs of tinctorius....
- sorry just venting a lil bit

as for the leucs and auratus, and pumilio
i have much less of a knowledge of these frogs, but it seems to be pretty similar to the tinc thing im talking about, fine spot, banded, normal spot, i mean they are all leucs, and they do have a much greater radius, so i also am a bit confused about why its ok to toss some leucs in a tank and call it a day, maybe its ok becuase they are generally yellow and black, (so ppl dont get confused) they can always say "thats a leuc" and look at the size and number of spots and say "thats a fine spotted leuc"

sorry this was so long the Mixing Morph thing really drives me insane, i am however totally against mixing species...


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## AlexRible (Oct 16, 2007)

^^^ Personally redeye I think that crossing morphs would benefit the individual animal of the species, making them stronger and less disease prone by diversifying their blood lines. However I still would never mix morphs together because there might be a day where we can not be able to find these morphs in the wild and their blood lines could be lost for ever. Im sure that some morphs do breed in the wild especially the Sipaliwini savanna morphs. That being said don't underestimate natural barriers. Take D. histrionicus for example, the next morph might only be a few miles away, but there is a huge mountain range in the way. Those two morphs haven't seen each other in hundreds of years. Lastly I know with D. tinctorius morphs its kinda like "what ratio of blue to yellow to black would you like?" but I still enjoy the morphs that nature provided and seeing what morphs it might come up with next.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

my turn, crossing lines ok, not morphs. i have darts with a couple lines simply because breeder knew it was beneficial not to interbreed the parents with siblings down the line. i dont think troy said anything about mixing lines, just morphs, it was long troy, but he obviously touched base on quite a few great details. troy, you have much more morph knowledge than i do. i just know i do not hybridize, maybe i need some studying to do, but at that late at night when he made that post from his research of their range in the wild, that was good i dont have any problem mixing lines, its when morphs are mixed that i have a disagreement with. that being said, i think some people will disregard this and do it anyways. and that, you guys, is my fear. kristy


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

evolvstll said:


> Why is it alright to mix any old leuc? (Not referring to new BG additions)
> 
> In the wild they inhabit a wider range/habitat than the tinc morphs. We harp on the importance of keeping the tinc morphs from mixing or creating hybrids.
> So why in our hobby where we harp on keeping localities of different darts of auratus, tincs, imitators, pumilio, etc............from mixing and and creating hybrids, is it alright to take any 'nominant' luec and breed them?


b/c 'any old leuc' is likely either a _*mixed bag already*_, _or_ from only a single country/import [someone can check on this] that supplied the US population....they wont be managed by TWI/ASN unless new stock with locale data come in...

we have:

'standard' leucs [?country(s) of origin?]
BG banded leucs [specific locale data]
fine spot [? specific locale or are we isolating a trait?]

Anyone able to fill in the blanks?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

hey, never knew twi/asn didnt manage them. good to know.....better keep up with what they do manage. i surely cant fill in those blanks, and what about the chocolate leucs? kristy


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

ah, chocolate leucs 

they are a mutation from a standard leuc...that was then selectively bred. They are not a wild type animal. Also wont be managed by TWI/ASN per protocol.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

makes perfect sense. never knew that. all this info helps me learn more, especially as a twi/asn member and not too long ago submitted my asn application. know quite a few people who own them or want/wanted them. so a designer morph then. unfortunbately bred for their traits.... thanks for the clarification. kristy


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## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I was wondering about this as well as about mixing color morphs of terribilis. Since they are the same frogs, if say all the frogs were males so there was no worry of breeding, would there be any other issue with mixing different colors of the same frog. whether it be terribs or leucs or whatever else?


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

"b/c 'any old leuc' is likely either a mixed bag already, or from only a single country/import [someone can check on this] that supplied the US population....they wont be managed by TWI/ASN unless new stock with locale data come in..."

Thanks Shawn, it could be that since they have been in the hobby so long, that when they were imported that the leucs were lumped together in the first place. As TWI/ASN isnt managing them shows that they have thought about this before. I thought someone could shed more light on this. I will try the TWI site..

So in the future it appears that if a shipment occurs like the BG leucs with more specific data, they will be kept apart from those already in the hobby.

This isnt meant to be a so called mixing thread as many see them. I see their range from Venezuela to Brazil on various web sites. I was using Tincs as just an example on how we have managed to keep the variability based on geographical isolation in the hobby. Was wondering why it appears leucs as to say it 'fell through the cracks'


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Mitch Heller was looking into this a few months ago and found that the chocolate, fine-spotted, and green-legged morphs of leucs were selectively bred from the same original population, so by breeding them back together we are getting closer to achieving that original population. Of course it's not that simple and would have to be managed properly but that's the general idea. The conversation on the topic and his findings are here (scroll down to the bottom few posts): Leucomelas thread at TWI


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