# Mist, fog both?



## BobC (Jan 22, 2018)

Which is better for the frogs? Mist, fog, both, neither?


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Misting is usually better for the plants, and at getting moisture around the entire tank. Fog makers are pretty cool looking, but are typically added in addition to a misting system.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

For me it really depends on the size of the tank and what's in it. Some of my geckos love humidity but seem to hate being misted, but in larger tanks I think most foggers wouldn't be sufficient on their own and the reservoir would need refilled way too often. 
One _huge_ advantage of a mistking system is that the reservoir can really be as large as you like so you don't need to refill as often.
That said I would choose a fogger over a misting system for 45x45x60cm tanks and under becaue I feel you can achieve the same high humidity while putting less actual water into the tank, and if you don't have a bulkhead and drain installed misting systems can be a pain in the arse if you have very dry air and need to mist constantly.
Whatever you do avoid products like the exo terra fogger that are designed to be placed in the tank, they're dangerous to your animals and the ceramic foging disk fouls way too quickly. If you go down the fogging route look for models that pipe the fog into your tank from outside.


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## BobC (Jan 22, 2018)

I've been looking at the converted room humidifiers. The cool mist type. They seem up to the task and affordable. Any suggestions?


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## DanConnor (Apr 12, 2009)

I just bought a PureGuardian 12.5L off of amazon. I like it because it has a 3 foot standpipe attachment on top of it that is slightly tapered. Just slide your 1" pvc fitting up till it gets to the right thickness, then cut and glue. Super easy.

ZooMed make a fogger for smaller enclosures. Works fine but probably won't last as long.


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## Roscoe09 (Dec 30, 2017)

I would pick a mister over fogger. Fog in my experience typically condensates at the bottom of the tank which is good for terrestrial species but doesn’t provide higher humidity at the top of the tank (this may have happened due to me having a screen lid). I do enjoy adding 1/4 in tube for fog to “trickle through in tanks. The zoo med fogger are pretty good although one of them only lasted me 18 months. They have to be constantly cleaned due to calcium build ups. Misters are great because one you can have a large resivoir and are fairly quiet. The mister nozzle are easily adjustable and you can add on more if need be. As said before misting is recommended for plants. If you get a humidifier, you might want to have a hand mister on hand for biweekly (or more) misting for plants. Good luck!


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## BobC (Jan 22, 2018)

The fogger makes a great visual effect but I guess its hard to distribute it enough to have any real effect at providing moisture for the plants, other than the general humidity. It seems that the mister system is the way to go for a practical result. I would think RO or distilled water is best to use in them to avoid deposits in the nozzels. Are there any types that are not as sensitive to buildup?


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## Rich (Feb 8, 2018)

If you use a fan like I do. you may find misting to get the desired humidity too much for the plants and they don't ever dry off. I use my misting schedule to give my plants enough water and have my fogger run in between to keep the humidity up where I want it.
That way my plants that don't like standing water on their leaves get a break.

Just my findings with my setup.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Rich said:


> I use my misting schedule to give my plants enough water and have my fogger run in between to keep the humidity up where I want it.
> *That way my plants that don't like standing water on their leaves get a break.*
> 
> Just my findings with my setup.


This is a good point. It also looks like some people think that foggers only increase the himidity where you can actually see the fog collecting and I don't think this is the case at all. If you have a layer of fog settled in the bottom of your vivarium you can be confident the humidity of the entire enclosure has increased substantially.
It sometimes seems like people conflate humidity with 'wetness' too, I can achieve close to 100% humidity in a tank without the tree fern background being wet and if you pulled out a handful of leaf litter from certain areas it would still feel dry and crispy.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

A quality misting system, (my own choice is MistKing), is for your frogs, your plants, and the whole vivarium.

A fogger is for you. It creates neat visual effects for YOUR eyes. Humidity, however, will be controlled via ventilation, misting, and the reservoir of water down in the false bottom or LECA layer, (or the newer expanded glass).
A fogger would have to run for a really long time to provide enough moisture to the substrate, and to fill brom axils. I"m not talking 15 minutes long. Depending on how much fog you are supplying, it would likely take hours. If you supplied enough fog to do it quicker, it would fill your tank to the point you couldn't see anything. That kind of defeats the purpose. You want your fog to flow down like a river and hang low, for the neatest effects. That means a fairly small amount of fog.
When I mist my vivarium, my humidity spikes for a while. If I were to run a fogger, for an extended time, to try and do the job, the humidity will be spiked for the duration of time the fogger is on, at a minimum. That is too humid, for too long. Too much humidity leads to plants "melting", or, as with my miniature orchids, standing moisture on the leaves leads to black spots and later, rot. If you run that fogger long enough to try and do the work of a misting system, water standing on the leaves would be inevitable. If the leaves wouldn't moisten, neither would the substrate. A constantly high humidity could also plausibly lead to respiratory, bacterial infections.

I'm not slamming foggers. I'm just pointing out why it can't really replace your misting system. It's like the ribbon on a birthday present. It looks pretty, but it's not really doing much for you. I have nothing against their proper use in a vivarium.
I do choose not to use them myself, because it's another piece of technology that can fail.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Amen Doug, very well put. I just got my second mistking set up, and it's really just necessary. Not only can hand-misting get annoying, but we're all human, and we know that there will be days, and even several spans of days, where we will get lazy or forget and the tank will stay dry. With an automated mister, I know that my tank is always getting watered, and even more consistently and effectively than I could do it myself. 

Like Doug said, a fogger is like the ribbon on the birthday present. I compare it with having a water feature or water fall (depending on the frog of course) - it's something that's really cool and nice to look at, but is only necessary for a very specific few species of frogs where running water comprises much of their natural habitat. That, and the fact that they can almost always be depended upon to fail


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## Rich (Feb 8, 2018)

Pumilo said:


> A quality misting system, (my own choice is MistKing), is for your frogs, your plants, and the whole vivarium.
> 
> A fogger is for you. It creates neat visual effects for YOUR eyes. Humidity, however, will be controlled via ventilation, misting, and the reservoir of water down in the false bottom or LECA layer, (or the newer expanded glass).
> A fogger would have to run for a really long time to provide enough moisture to the substrate, and to fill brom axils. I"m not talking 15 minutes long. Depending on how much fog you are supplying, it would likely take hours. If you supplied enough fog to do it quicker, it would fill your tank to the point you couldn't see anything. That kind of defeats the purpose. You want your fog to flow down like a river and hang low, for the neatest effects. That means a fairly small amount of fog.
> ...


I agree here you still need a Mister(I also use a Mistking with three nozzels on my setup and it runs 8 times at 20 seconds in 24 hrs).
I think I need to clarify that the fogger just runs really to slow the evaporation so the misting can reach the lower levels of the substrate.
Right now in the current season the humidity in my house is in the low thirty's to high twenty's.
I find it just helps to keep my humidity from dropping into the seventy's before its soaked into the substrate.
Keep in mind "Not every house is as dry as mine".
It really comes down to watching the trend in your vivarium.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> A quality misting system, (my own choice is MistKing), is for your frogs, your plants, and the whole vivarium.
> _A fogger is for you. It creates neat visual effects for YOUR eyes. Humidity, however, will be controlled via ventilation, misting, and the reservoir of water down in the false bottom or LECA layer_, (or the newer expanded glass).
> A fogger would have to run for a really long time to provide enough moisture to the substrate, and to fill brom axils. I"m not talking 15 minutes long. Depending on how much fog you are supplying, it would likely take hours.


Just to clarify, you are essentially talking in terms of the different systems utility as an irrigation system here rather than for increasing humidity?
You've achieved 100% humidity with a fogger long before the tank is filled with fog.
I know you know what you're talking about Pumilio but people with less experience should understand that the moisture of your substrate and the amount of standing water in bromeliads is not the same thing as absolute humidity expressed as the measure of water vapor in the air regardless of temperature......



> If you supplied enough fog to do it quicker, it would fill your tank to the point you couldn't see anything. That kind of defeats the purpose.


.....meaning that this is only true with regards to irrigation and not humidity. 



> I'm not slamming foggers. I'm just pointing out why it can't really replace your misting system.


They're not designed to 


> It's like the ribbon on a birthday present. It looks pretty, but it's not really doing much for you.


There are _way_ too many variables affecting humidity and the rate at which a tank will dry out to make an absolute statement like this.
You could have a tank where every surface is wet and the bromeliad axils are overflowing and still measure quite low absolute humidity.
Similarly I'm looking at a tank right now with humidity around 90% and substrate and background material in the tank is not by any means wet. There are plenty of plants and animals that enjoy high humidity but not wet substrate or surfaces and I'm surprised you feel misting is better for orchids as In my experience they are the _perfect_ example of this.
Sophronitis cernua for example does much better for me when it never get's 'watered' at all but instead enjoys extremely high absolute humidity during the day (achieved with a fogger) and condensation along with lower relative humidity at night. 
I use mistking and I use foggers, there isn't a 'one size fits all' solution, the best tool for the job is going to depend on individual circumstances and whether you're looking to automate watering or finely control humidity, and in same cases to provide the correct microclimates you might need to use both. You may also wish to have uniformly high humidity in a tank but for condensation to only form in lower tiers of the environment in which case a misting system isn't much use.
Example: I have a tall tank where I'm growing filmy ferns in shadier spots on the tank floor and tillandsia and orchids in the canopy. I want to provide high humidity for them all but want water vapour to actually condense in the cooler shadier areas even during the day to provide the filmy ferns with moisture rather than just humid air. To do this I ensure I have very high absolute humidity, with a _fogger_, and create a failry steep vertical temperature gradient. Whilst the humidity is high throughout the tank, the upper reaches are not 'wet' and the lower, cooler areas are. 
This is achieved without misting at all and I believe I'd be at a a disadvantage in this instance if I was to connect the tank to my mistking.


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## BobC (Jan 22, 2018)

Ok, Thanks all for your comments. As I was reading them I pictured an inverted swamp when using a fogger too much. You would have to create too much humidity in the air for too long to do the root systems any good. That would effectively choke the leaves and cause rot. Better to mist for a while then let the roots "dry out" a little so they can breathe and not get wet feet. Like a natural rain cycle. The fogger is just a neat visual effect.


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## BobC (Jan 22, 2018)

Louis, I see your point too.

"Example: I have a tall tank where I'm growing filmy ferns in shadier spots on the tank floor and tillandsia and orchids in the canopy. I want to provide high humidity for them all but want water vapour to actually condense in the cooler shadier areas even during the day to provide the filmy ferns with moisture rather than just humid air. To do this I ensure I have very high absolute humidity, with a fogger, and create a failry steep vertical temperature gradient. Whilst the humidity is high throughout the tank, the upper reaches are not 'wet' and the lower, cooler areas are."

I'm not raising those type of plants. But I can see where a fogger could be used to good effect. Thanks


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Louis said:


> Just to clarify, you are essentially talking in terms of the different systems utility as an irrigation system here rather than for increasing humidity?
> You've achieved 100% humidity with a fogger long before the tank is filled with fog.
> I know you know what you're talking about Pumilio but people with less experience should understand that the moisture of your substrate and the amount of standing water in bromeliads is not the same thing as absolute humidity expressed as the measure of water vapor in the air regardless of temperature......
> 
> ...


I'm with Doug here. I have lots of tanks, nearly all of which are connected to my Mistking. Those that aren't, I have to hand mist. I don't have a single fogger connected to any of my tanks. They all get along just fine without a fogger. I can't even imagine the complexity of the setup I would have to have (in terms of the number of foggers, the timers, etc.) to do the opposite (just foggers and no misting). I am glad that you have a setup that works well for you with orchids but I don't think that setup is as optimal for dart frogs (the primary focus of this board) for most people. I don't think I could keep 90% humidity in my tanks with just a fogger unless I ran it 5 minutes on and 5 minutes off all day. Foggers just don't have the "staying power" in terms of humidity that misting systems do. Now, if you also have a false bottom that contains water all the time and you fill it with something other than a fogger, then you might get away with a fogger-only system for darts. But in the climate in which Doug and I live, a fogger is not a practical replacement for for misting without other water intervention. While I think it's possible to get away with just a fogger in some climates, for some setups, I don't think this is the direction we want to be pointing new folks toward. That's just my $0.02, though, and maybe I am wrong about the broad applicability of foggers vs. misting systems.

Mark


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## Roscoe09 (Dec 30, 2017)

I just moved to Colorado (home of Mark and Doug). I've had foggers before. They are a pain in the butt to clean. Calcium constantly builds up even with purified water (I even use RO a few times). Fogging is not a necessity similar to waterfalls. I think they are cool to add a "trickle" in a tank. To keep the humidity up in Virginia I ran it every hour for 5 minutes on full power. I had to constantly had to drain the false bottom due to it condensing and soaking the substrate. I personally would choose a mister over a fogger. Spend a little more money to buy a mister over a fogger. It will be beneficial and last longer.


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## Rich (Feb 8, 2018)

In my climate I definitely recommend misting first. 
For where I'm at and my setup I need misting for my plants which I can drench and still have low humidity and standing water is I mist too much.
I.E. I water the vivarium with the Mistking.
I raise humidity with 4 min fog every couple of hours.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Rich said:


> I agree here you still need a Mister(I also use a Mistking with three nozzels on my setup and it runs 8 times at 20 seconds in 24 hrs).
> I think I need to clarify that the fogger just runs really to slow the evaporation so the misting can reach the lower levels of the substrate.
> Right now in the current season the humidity in my house is in the low thirty's to high twenty's.
> I find it just helps to keep my humidity from dropping into the seventy's before its soaked into the substrate.
> ...


Why would you want to keep your humidity from dropping into the 70's? That's the good stuff! 80 and 90+ percent humidity levels are very old school...older than me!! Ultra high humidity levels are not natural, and can promote bacterial infections. Humidity levels in the 70's is the sweet spot we should be striving for. Even dropping into the 60's now and then, is an ok humidity level. I like my vivs sitting in the low 70's for the majority of the day. I quit pushing high humidity levels 10 years ago, in favor of well ventilated vivs.


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## Rich (Feb 8, 2018)

Pumilo said:


> Why would you want to keep your humidity from dropping into the 70's? That's the good stuff! 80 and 90+ percent humidity levels are very old school...older than me!! Ultra high humidity levels are not natural, and can promote bacterial infections. Humidity levels in the 70's is the sweet spot we should be striving for. Even dropping into the 60's now and then, is an ok humidity level. I like my vivs sitting in the low 70's for the majority of the day. I quit pushing high humidity levels 10 years ago, in favor of well ventilated vivs.


You know... I was reading the average in the South American Rain Forests were in the lower 70's during the day between rain's. I was starting moss from spores but its starting to sprout now so I'm gonna try it a little drier and see how it goes.
Thanks for the info!


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## Deltagraphic (Sep 29, 2017)

I think timed foggers are a fantastic addition to hand misting, allowing me to mist only as needed for watering my plants without any worries that a well ventilated viv will fall below a desirable humidity level. The diy units I use are dirt cheap, durable and effective. (~$8 fogger disk, mason jar, aquarium pump, tubing) and its something I would certainly reccomend to a beginner. In my experience, over-misting is a far more common begginer mistake than dessication and a timed fogger gave me the confidence not to over-water while I was getting the knack for guaging humidity by feel. Certainly not an alternative to an automated misting system but an excellent companion/back up to hand misting.


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