# pumilio morphs...



## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

im interested(as im sure others are) to know just how many morphs of pumilio have been discovered?? i looked around on a lot of websites(american and european) and this is what i came up with...
the ones we have here, rare and common:
bastimentos(red, orange, yellow, goldust, blue?)
cayo de agua
solarte/nancy
yellowbelly
green
bribri
blue jeans
cauchero
darklands
escudo
chiriui river
mancreek/almirante
black and white
rio branco
san cristobol
robalo
loma partida
el dorado
guarumo
colon
bruno
isla popa north
isla popa south
salt creek

and then there are the ones that were on other sites that we dont have:
melci
bisira
cano *****
cayo sinnombre
chiriqui grande
fila carbon
fortuna
guabo
guapiles
hitoy cerere
pastores
playa larga
punte alegre
punta viega
rambala
sarapiqui
siquirres
upala
valiente

let me know if i missed any or put some in the wrong spot! it is also my understanding that escudo is going to be its own species soon and some of the names up there are going in the same group. and also blue jeans is going to become its own species(typographa?) along with all the morphs that look like blue jeans, excluding man creek/almirante.


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## Detrick105 (Apr 16, 2006)

So are you saying that mancreek/almirante are the same? And not two different types? I always thought that there were man creeks and then there were almirante.
Steve


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Detrick105 said:


> So are you saying that mancreek/almirante are the same? And not two different types? I always thought that there were man creeks and then there were almirante.
> Steve


Tropical experience has them listed as the same .
http://www.tropical-experience.nl/index ... &Itemid=85
I am not saying they are or thier not as my nolidge on pumilio locale is sub par at best . I am just pointing it out.
Brian


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I wouldn't say that some of those are legitimate morphs personally (like yellow belly and black and white), they're just descriptions of the colors for lack of site data. I wouldn't count those in the official morphs. Personally, I think that there are around 30-40 morphs. There also is the discussion of what makes a morph a morph. Many have said Almirante and Man Creek are different and many have said they're the same. Same with Darklands and Cauchero. I guess personally, I'd have to look at the genetics of them and see how far apart they are. Same with size and behavior.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Pastores = Shepherd Island 

That's a morph. Specific to Isla Pastores in Bocas del Toro where the Shepherd family farm is/was located.


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

Our Man Creeks are very different than our Almirante PDP-JA-07's and our Almirante PDP-LR-07's.

We have had the chance to breed and study the different color morphs the parents produce in their offspring. We also see, after about a year and a half, the color's of the JA-07's turn from a very light metallic red/pink, to light metallic red, and then to a full, red with bright orange belly and inner-legs at adult hood. Very fascinating transformation to watch. 

Have a look...
These are JA-07's at 4 months. Don't they look just like some of the imports that came in.










Here is a family shot...









Here is two of our true Man Creeks.....


















This is our LR-07's they have the most color patterns when it comes to there offspring.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> I wouldn't say that some of those are legitimate morphs personally (like yellow belly and black and white), they're just descriptions of the colors for lack of site data. I wouldn't count those in the official morphs. Personally, I think that there are around 30-40 morphs. There also is the discussion of what makes a morph a morph. Many have said Almirante and Man Creek are different and many have said they're the same. Same with Darklands and Cauchero. I guess personally, I'd have to look at the genetics of them and see how far apart they are. Same with size and behavior.


i realize this but since we dont know the local data between them we have to keep them seperate and consider them different morphs. with the green morph i know darren has some pumilio called "green 04" because they arent cayos or yellowbellys so thats just what he calls them, shouldnt be mixed with the other 2 so it may as well be a different morph until proven otherwise. same gos for cauchero and darklands. and between those 2, the pics ive seen of both suggest that darklands are darker(go figure) and so even if they were the same morph they would probably be different bloodlines and shouldnt be mixed then either.

so does this mean almirante and mancreek are the same or different? it seems as though from what exoticdarts said/showed they are a different morph. but then i wonder if older imports are the same and it has just been overly confused over the years?

oh ya and i forgot "uyama river". thanks umbrasprite for the info!


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

The only way we will know for sure is for someone to use GPS to map out, acre by acre the populations and what separates them. The good news...this is being done.

Chris van der Lingen as part of his Panama Pumilio Protection Project has employed graduate students from the Netherlands and begun combing the islands recording data on all pumilio found there. They have completed (or nearly completed) Isla Colon and Bastimentos. He presented some of this work at NAAC although the data is still being collated.

In my opinion...even having site data does not tell you how wide a population spreads, which it may overlap (does that make it one population?) and how much morphological variability exists within one or even several closely located populations which may appear exactly the same.

Even Chris's work won't be perfect but it will be the most complete and accurate study of this topic yet to be done...and an immense undertaking. If you are really interested in this I would encourage you to support Chris's project.

Some of the study design can be seen here:

http://www.dendrobatesworld.com/Panama% ... -03-05.pdf

Chris's website with more info...

http://www.dendrobatesworld.com/e-main.htm

In my opinion outside of this...EVERYTHING we debate is speculation.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

wow thanks umbrasprite, im glad i read that. its good that someone is doing something like this, hopefully if it works they can do it for all the other species. its really too bad that a lot of countries are developing so much and destroying a lot of land.

so are all the basti colors(red, orange, yellow, etc.) the same morph and just a variation?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

and from what I have heard some of the natives are moving frogs from area to another for the tourists to see them easier... (anecdotal reports so far). 

Ed


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Ed - hadn't heard this but it makes sense. Sure has the potential to poke some holes in some local data, that is very unfortunate.



Ed said:


> and from what I have heard some of the natives are moving frogs from area to another for the tourists to see them easier... (anecdotal reports so far).
> 
> Ed


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

thedude said:


> so are all the basti colors(red, orange, yellow, etc.) the same morph and just a variation?


That's one theory. The typical basti that we see in the hobby are, but there are about, IMO, 3-4 different morphs on the island.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> thedude said:
> 
> 
> > so are all the basti colors(red, orange, yellow, etc.) the same morph and just a variation?
> ...


so as long is its the same bloodline its fine to breed orange with red? like with chocolate leucs and normal leucs?



Ed said:


> and from what I have heard some of the natives are moving frogs from area to another for the tourists to see them easier... (anecdotal reports so far).
> 
> Ed


that would be most unfortunate. atleast it shouldnt wind up with the usual problem of invasive species like with bullfrogs and cane toads. but it still really sucks


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

thedude said:


> so as long is its the same bloodline its fine to breed orange with red? like with chocolate leucs and normal leucs?


Right. The Red Frog Beach frogs look rather similar with a few differences, but I don't think that they've been brought in yet. It's really hard to tell, though. If they have, I'm guessing they've already been mixed.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

why would they have been mixed if they would have been imported at different times therefore would have to be different bloodlines? except for the people that dont care about bloodlines and just mix them anyway.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Bastis haven't been so heavily recorded as other morphs. I haven't seen "Bastimentos 2000 Import" on sale frogs. It's just been "Golddust, Red, Orange, Greendust."


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> The typical basti that we see in the hobby are, but there are about, IMO, 3-4 different morphs on the island.


JP, can I ask what parameters you are using to determine the distinction into this number of seperate morphs (e.g. morphology, geographical barriers, etc)? And how would the term "population" relate to your use of the term morph in this case?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Mainly, I'm going by physical color differences and some geographic barriers. The western island (the polymorphic population we see in the hobby) is found only on the west end. RFB is not polymorphic and typically are orange or red with fine spots. The vast majority of the interior of the island (not in the park) is teak forest which is simply inhospitable to frogs. Far too dry and far too hot for the frogs. Yes, some frogs could migrate, but the likelihood that they do, I'm convinced, is so slim that it doesn't happen. The southern peninsula leading to Solarte looks like Solartes and are typically spotless and orange (although there is some spotted individuals). When the eastern island is spotless, red, white bellied, and gray/green legged. I think that that teak forest in the center is really what, in my mind, separates these frogs as geographically isolated populations.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

MonarchzMan said:


> I think that that teak forest in the center is really what, in my mind, separates these frogs as geographically isolated populations.


sounds right. otherwise you could say they are all one morph with lots of variants. at what point do we consider a variant a morph? does it have to be a separate population to be a morph? and do any of the species that overlap interbreed?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

Well what we're seeing with pumilio is a ring species phenomenon, really. At either end, we have different species, but where morphs overlap, I have little doubt that they breed. With the island populations, it's a bit different since most don't overlap, but mainland populations, I'd guess that, for instance, the Aguacate Peninsula frogs are breeding with the "Almirante/Man Creek" frogs where the peninsula meets the rest of the mainland.

I would guess, and this is just a guess, that close populations like Isla Colon and Bastimentos would have little difficulty breeding, but populations like Isla Colon and Cayo de Agua would have a little bit more difficulty breeding due to size differences or behavioral differences.


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