# Sand in substrate



## Guest (Apr 16, 2004)

I remember hearing somewhere that using silica sand in your substrate could potentially cause harm to the frogs because they might ingest it. I got a substrate mix recipie that calls for equal parts of ground coco husk, orchid bark, pea gravel, and silica sand. it has a very natual look to it and it drains really well for plants, but will it be okay for the frogs?


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

that sounds like dirt to me 
i used to work landscaping and my boss made topsoil
by mixing sand with all the grass clippings we collected,
plus some other stuff but those two things where the major
ingredients...


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*You'll be fine...*

That sounds a lot like Atlanta Botanical Garden's mix. You can sip the sand if you want - but it will not be a problem. I think when people warn about sand, they are referring to using it over the entire tank. 

For others who are curious about the Atlanta Botanical Garden recipie, David Doyle has it on his site, here is the link: http://www.doylesdartden.com/housing.htm#Substrate

Melissa


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I have used the ABG exclusively for 8 years. It's a *great* mix.

It's got a couple hard to find ingrediants though.

Ground Tree Fern Root is pretty much only available via Mail Order (and only from OFE Orchid Supplies as far as I know. None of the other supply places ever had it.). Unfortunately, as I noted elsewhere on this board, Tree Fern Root is not renewable and you're killing a tree to get at its roots. So I no longer use Tree Fern Root at all.

Fine Orchid Bark is a bit easier to find. This is *not* the stuff you'll normally find at a Home Depot/Lowes. That is at least 2 or 3 times the size of the bark chips that you need. I recommend substituting coco chips from Rolanka.

Matter of fact... I've switched over to a mix I read about on this here board. I'm using 2 parts small coco chips, 1 part medium coco chips (both of these are from Rolanka), 1 part ground coco mix (the brick stuff) and 1 part peat.

I like this so far and it's cheaper, and much more renewable, than the ABG mix.

s


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*I agree*

...that is really close to the mix we use as well. 

Rolanka's prices are great, but if you get a large shipment figure shipping to be the same as the cost of the order. For example, if you put a $25 order in, shipping will run you about $25. 

Melis


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2004)

Scott said:


> Matter of fact... I've switched over to a mix I read about on this here board. I'm using 2 parts small coco chips, 1 part medium coco chips (both of these are from Rolanka), 1 part ground coco mix (the brick stuff) and 1 part peat.
> I like this so far and it's cheaper, and much more renewable, than the ABG mix.


Except for the peat, which is almost as non renewable as tree fern. peat takes about 100 years to form at the bottom of a bog, and they just dig the whole thing up to get to it. bet the frogs dont like that too much =)


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I knew that... but as a percentage... it's much smaller than what was being "used" before.

I'm not sure how much Peat brings to this mix... but I like the fact that I get spontaneous moss in my tanks and I'm guessing it is from moss spores in the peat.

So yes, it's not renewable, but percentagewise I've taken the non-renewable portion of my mix way down.

thx.

s


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I actually us LF spaghum moss, which is renewable in my mix.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2004)

not trying to be anal about it, just making a point. I use peat exclusively in my carniviorus plant bogs, because thats whats best for them. i am not that much of a hippie =) i just dont think that peat really is necessary for growing tropicals that will for the most part grow in just gravel. heck, my orchids are growing stapled to a wall! =)


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That's probably a good point Melis... i may just start using that, or milled sphagnum moss, rather than the peat.

s



melissa68 said:


> I actually us LF spaghum moss, which is renewable in my mix.


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2004)

my mix has always been long fiber sphagnum moss, fir bark chips and oak leaves. This has worked great for me and is pretty cost effective.

-Bill J.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Instead of tree fern root would other fern rhizomes work? I got a bunch from the ferns growing in my back yard that were acting like weeds. It is very similar to the tree fern.

Ryan


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2004)

they might start growing in there and take over!


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

I shred it so i doubt it, and if they do grow ill clip them down


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*ever used manure?*

If you have every used compost with some manure added it, you will understand what he is trying to say. Even thought it will be broken down, etc....you might have spores on it that can get established in your tank. It really isn't the most important ingredient in the soil mix anyways. 

Melis


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

By the way is manure good in a viv?


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*I don't know....*

...but my guess would be no. 

The thought that comes to mind is "You are what you eat", so I would assume any unprocessed medications, parasites, etc.. from the animal would be present in the manure. 

Melis


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## Guest (Apr 17, 2004)

Not to mention the huge bacterial load.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

bacteria wouldnt be too pressent though, cow manure is sterile. Thats why "shrooms" can grow in it, but probally will have parasites now that i think about it. Thanks for the help

Ryan


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2004)

Cow manure is sterile??? Do you mean processed manure or something? Do you have any idea how much bacteria is present in fecal material, especially herbivores? Natural cow manure is anything but sterile, please take my word on it.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Cow manure is very close to being sterile, we tested in school, since all the food goes through digestion 3 times, it causes it to be many times cleaner than any other animal.


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2004)

http://www.vetcentric.com/magazine/maga ... ICLEID=885

Dr. Russell’s research team, which included postdoctoral fellows as well as an undergraduate student in Cornell University’s Department of Microbiology, had been looking for a practical and efficient way to eliminate the bacteria from dairy cattle manure. Cow manure can carry the E. coli O157:H7 bacteria as well as other pathogens.

http://www.uog.edu/cals/PEOPLE/PUBS/Cattle/L-5288.pdf

http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/res ... sr9081.htm

Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis or MAP is the cause of Johne's disease (also called paratuberculosis) a common and chronic disease of the intestines that affects ruminant animals (such as cattle, sheep, goats and deer) and some non-ruminant animals. The disease is found in animals all over the world including cattle in all regions of Canada. Cattle with the late stage or clinical disease show wasting, have chronic diarrhea, are in poor health and eventually die. Since there are no vaccines to protect against infection, it is important to control the disease spread from herd-to-herd, and within a herd. Because MAP bacteria are shed in feces and in milk from the infected animals, the disease can be easily spread to the young animals though fecal contaminated foods, water or objects.

http://www.goveg.com/feat/meatfeces.html

Most of the 10 billion cows, pigs, and birds butchered every year in this country are contaminated with E. coli bacteria (not necessarily the 0157 variety), which comes from feces. A 1995 study by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) found that more than 99 percent of broiler chicken carcasses had detectable levels of E. coli. The March 1998 Consumer Reports—great bathroom reading material for meat-eaters—also reported that “some generic E. coli is present on virtually every chicken on the market …”

Listeria bacteria are found in animal feces and other animal sources. 



I have a few million other references if you want. Sterile means the absence of bacteria. Mushrooms can grow about anywhere. I'm not saying cow manure if the worst of all feces, but it is still fecal material and loaded with bacteria. In fact cows have a four chambered stomach and most of the chambers require high bacteria content to process the feed.


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## rbrightstone (Apr 14, 2004)

*manure in tank*

By the time cow manure has degraded into compost, which by the way is the only way it could be used, has no bacteria but what is nomally in any healthy soil. The composting process breaks down almost any organic substance. It certianly kills all harmful bacteria. Using anytype of manure that has not been composted, will burn ALL plants expossed to it.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Doesnt it also transport tape worms and stuff? Not ssure if they are small enough at first, maybe the eggs, to get in frogs?


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*...*

Ryan,

From the sounds of it, once composted it would have the same qualities as regular soil. Composting produces a lot of heat, so I don't know if they would survive.

Melis


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2004)

http://www.digitalseed.com/composter/bi ... teria.html

Bacteria
Bacteria are the smallest living organisms and the most numerous in compost; they make up 80 to 90% of the billions of microorganisms typically found in a gram of compost. Bacteria are responsible for most of the decomposition and heat generation in compost. They are the most nutritionally diverse group of compost organisms, using a broad range of enzymes to chemically break down a variety of organic materials.

http://www.mastercomposter.com/purpose/compost.html

http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/smallscale.doc

The hygienic quality of end products resulting from “backyard” composts is an important factor to consider because certain organisms that are pathogenic (disease-causing) to humans may be found in input materials and small scale compost piles generally fail to reach pathogen reducing temperatures.

Samples taken from each pile (replicate composite samples) were analyzed for bacteria including Clostridium perfringens, total coliform, fecal coliform, Escherichia Coli (E.coli), fecal streptococci, Enterococcus and Salmonella as well as for a variety of physical and chemical measures. These bacteria include some that are potential human pathogens

Many of these bacteria are also capable of multiplying in a medium like compost, particularly in nutrient rich composts made from food scraps. Thus the concentrations of bacteria measured in composts may represent not only bacteria that came with input materials but also those that grew in the piles.

All of the composts tested contained some of the bacteria tested for.

The results do not provide guidance regarding management measures for small compost piles that are likely to lead to low pathogen levels. Bacteria that were found may or may not be pathogenic. Since potentially pathogenic bacteria were found in the composts, it is recommended that good hygiene such as hand washing be practiced when handling the compost. 
The results of this project can be found at: http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/Composting.html. 
http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/public ... 115=160037

Thus, product quality could vary widely and if inadequately composted the product could introduce pathogens in systems producing fresh fruits, vegetables, and herbs that may be consumed raw. We conducted a study of the microbial quality (total heterotrophs, total and fecal coliforms, E. coli, Salmonella, and Enterococci) and seasonal variability, of commercially available compost from 11 facilities across the US. Feedstock compositions represented the wide range of materials commonly used. Results show that nearly all composts had fecal coliform counts above 1000 cfu/g and at least three contained salmonellae above 4 MPN/g (limits acceptable for distribution to the general public according to USEPA).

Conclusion – compost and fecal material is not as clean as some think, and disease causing bacteria are present in nearly all compost. The quote, “It certianly kills all harmful bacteria,” is dangerously misleading.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2004)

I should have put quotes around all the quoted material above. Evrything except the conclusion are direct quotes from the links preceding them.


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## rbrightstone (Apr 14, 2004)

*compost*

"Composting is a viable option for disposing of poultry mortalities...pathogens in carcasses are destroyed during composting by the high temperatures inherent in the process." This study and many more are availble at http://www.epa.gov/osw select "Reduce,Reuse,Recycle.

The fact is that your hands alone carry more germ and pathogens than money, which is considered one of the dirteist thing out there. Unless you are operating under completly steril conditions, there is no way to prevent organisims in your tank. By maintaining your frogs in optomal conditions, these should not be a problem to them, unless you stess them, any more than the pathogens on your hands to you.
Composting is constantly taking place within your tank. The waste from your frogs and uneaten prey break down and feed your plants.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2004)

Well i think that everyone here is confused. Manure is a great compost. It works wonders on corn, rye, soy, and other grains and vegatables. Wether or not it is sterile, free of bacteria, or just plain stinky, it's probably not the best choice for a vivarium that houses PDFs. I mean, would you want your kids playing in a pile of poo? I know some people here spend more time with their frogs than kids, so whats the difference. 

I had a veggie garden that i used composted cow poo (with other things) to fertilize and the stuff i grew there was the best tasting ever. However, with the frogs' sucebtibility to pathogens and infestations, there are plenty of other materials that provide similar benifits without having to worry about the unknowns. 

CONCLUSION: if you wanna use poo, try it out. If it kills your frogs, dont use it the net time. Done.


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## Guest (Apr 23, 2004)

Composting is a wonderful thing and we should all consider composting. I don’t plan on using it in my vivaria, but someone may be able to do so effectively and safely. My former statements were not to be taken as anti-composting, rather they were just made to educate people about the health risks (to humans and animals) of fecal material and compost. The decomposition that takes place inside a vivarium is natural and somewhat beneficial. The number of bacteria on our skin is indeed astronomical, but rarely do we have e-coli, salmonella, fecal streptococci, Enterococcus, and Clostridium perfringens on our hands. Money has less bacteria (according to some studies) than our skin, but the bacteria is of more pathogenic strains – due to sick people sneezing, using the restroom, picking their nose, etc and not washing their hands. The bacteria in feces and compost are even more dangerous. I guess my take home message would be – wash your hands after handling feces, compost, or money.


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