# So I'm sure this is a stupid question...



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

But why is it against the grain to culture your regional isopod species for your darts? I understand about pesticides, chemicals, etc. But I would assume that the threat of these substances would be all but gone after the third or fourth generation/separate culture. I also understand that size would become an issue, but isn't it the same with the orange giants? Isn't that precisely why some keepers will want them? So their frogs won't eat the adults and the in-tank population will thrive? 

Just curious,
Mark


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Mark,

People culture all sorts of isopods, including regional species. I think the only objection you would here from people is harvesting wild isopods, as they can carry-in a lot of unwanted pathogens into your frog room. That said, all food sources we use were once wild.

Take care, Richard.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

The only risk I can think of is potential introduction of chytrid spores on the isopods themselves. But, I see no difference between that and collecting local termites.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A number of the temperate isopods have inordinately long times to sexual maturity.. some sources list it as long as 15 months.... 
For example Porcellio scaber has a generational time of one year. See for example the comment in this pdf http://www.genetics.org/content/88/3/591.full.pdf 

People often reports production of large numbers of offspring but this ignores the time required for those isopods to mature and produce the next generation. 

Ed


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

That's a great point! For the life of me, I can't figure out what species mine are around here, so I have no idea what the time frame would be even if I did want to do that.

Any ideas as to how to find out? I'm not thinking about doing it right now. But if its a possibility, I'd definitely think about setting up a huge culture and let them continue to multiply just incase I ever really need some food.

Mark


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

JimO said:


> The only risk I can think of is potential introduction of chytrid spores on the isopods themselves. But, I see no difference between that and collecting local termites.


How can you ever be sure you're not introducing some sort of pathogen even when you're buying food items from a reputable source? I wondered this recently about springtails that I purchased in the past as well as ones I have supplied to others.


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

So, as it turns out, the species I have is Cylisticus convexus. I can't seem to find anything about their reproduction rate, though. Any ideas where I could find information bout this?

Mark


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

TDK said:


> How can you ever be sure you're not introducing some sort of pathogen even when you're buying food items from a reputable source?


It beats the alternative in my opinion. At least you can be _moderately sure_ that the _captive bred_ isopods didn't come directly from outside. Plus you can assume the seller uses the isopods his/herself with their own cages. A "reptuable source" simply means a seller with good reputation, right? The good reputation would last about a week if the feeder insects were carrying Chytrid. It's not like nobody would notice all their frogs dying off.

I personally wouldn't worry as much about fertilizers and chemicals so much as pathogens & other potential problems that could be carried in by wild caught bugs.

To me it boils down to the same reason people don't go outside to catch crickets, fruit flies, and other insects to feed to their animals. Just because the darts aren't necessarily eating the isopods - doesn't mean the environment they are surrounded by won't be negatively affected.

(I don't currently have isopods available, so I'm completely impartial to this argument btw)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Markw said:


> So, as it turns out, the species I have is Cylisticus convexus. I can't seem to find anything about their reproduction rate, though. Any ideas where I could find information bout this?
> 
> Mark


It should be out there somewhere as that species has been cultured in Europe for over 30 years. 

How did you key the isopod out? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TDK said:


> How can you ever be sure you're not introducing some sort of pathogen even when you're buying food items from a reputable source? I wondered this recently about springtails that I purchased in the past as well as ones I have supplied to others.


 
In general the more generations that have been produced the less the risk that they are carrying a parasite or some other pathogens (except for soil bacteria which are everywhere). 

As an example, chytrid has a limited time line in which it can survive in damp soil, so if you culture them out past that timeline, then the chance of chytrid is very tiny.... 

Ed


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

That species is the only species in my area that has the ability to roll completely into a ball and not just a C shape. They also match species stock photos perfectly. I'll look a bit more and see what I can come up with.

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That isn't a sufficient diagnostic as Armadillidium vulgare now has a global distribution and has been reported from Maryland. 

Ed


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Wow. A quick search and that one looks MUCH more like the ones we have around here, if I remember correctly from this morning, and it didn't even show up on my research! I will break out the macro lens and get a few shots off tomorrow and post them. Thanks for that.

Mark


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## TDK (Oct 6, 2007)

Ed said:


> In general the more generations that have been produced the less the risk that they are carrying a parasite or some other pathogens (except for soil bacteria which are everywhere).
> 
> As an example, chytrid has a limited time line in which it can survive in damp soil, so if you culture them out past that timeline, then the chance of chytrid is very tiny....
> 
> Ed


But what about something like hookworms. Often when you're feeding springtails you're spooning or dumping part of the soil/substrate they are in. How long could the egg from a hookworm or other similar parasite potentially live without a host in the substrate?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TDK said:


> But what about something like hookworms. Often when you're feeding springtails you're spooning or dumping part of the soil/substrate they are in. How long could the egg from a hookworm or other similar parasite potentially live without a host in the substrate?


If we accept for a moment that there is a larva that infects amphibians and not say dogs clinging to the isopod then each culture is going to act as a dilution... so to actually place the larva into an enclosure, you would have to have transferred it into the isopod culture, the conditions in the culture would have to be conducive to it's persistence (since it can't reproduce outside of the amphibian host) and then it would have to be in the substrate that makes it into the enclosure (assuming you don't tap the isopods off of the cardboard) and if cultures were set up several times, it would have had to make it into each sequential culture.

The risk from this method is much much less than from the practices of using live moss or plants in the enclosures.. 

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I see alot of distaste for collecting feeders in the wild. Field sweeping and collecting insects by hand is a much more common practice than many think. They all come form the wild after all. Just a matter of how many generations down theve been bred.

I would say this on some of the isos mentioned with long maturity rates. You can always use them for viv cleaners and when the mature you will have them inviv.

Michael


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

It's said that the frogs won't eat anything too big for them. My question is, what if they try? That's the only real thing that's keeping me back from doing just that in my viv. I have p. Vittatus. The adults of mine, after measuring a out 20 adults, is 1/2". Give or take 1/32".

Mark


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