# Dart Frog Warehouse



## Dillon Wascher

Hello fellow froggers!

[redacted]
DartFrogWarehouse.com

[redacted]

Please check out our site– we have about 2,000 beautiful, healthy frogs... [redacted]!

[redacted]

Thank you very much! 

Dillon Wascher


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## edwardsatc

What exactly is SAFE and what does it imply? You seem to make big deal of it on the website and have even trademarked it, but never explain what that means ...

The Q based age stuff and other trademarked things on the site seems a bit gimmicky and my personal reaction to gimmicky sales tactics is usually to equate that with a lack of quality.


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## cypho23

...what he said.


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## phender

What's with the "Sunbee", "Aurora", "Lunar", etc. Are you trying to make your own "common" name for the frogs? They already have morph names. I don't get it. It makes you seem either amateurish, or like you are just over marketing.


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## JJuchems

I am not trying to be a down, just informative but other frog/reptile breeders have used A1 designation for their offspring. While you have trademarked it they still have the right to use it out of establishment.


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## Dillon Wascher

Hey, thanks for the inquiry and comments. I can assure you quality is top on our list, and there are no gimmicks. Come visit our facility. We can give you a private tour. On the issues you raise, we did a pre-market study on dart frogs and why they are not perceived as a retail pet assuming supply issues could be overcome. In fact, last Tuesday we met with the owner of a five store chain ($5M annually) to carry our frogs. They saw this as the ink jet printer and ink model. Frogs and flies are profitable. This was our second meeting with a third scheduled for this coming Tuesday. Our marketing study and theirs gave the same result. The overwhelming number one response as to why people who knew what a dart frog is, and a surprising many do not, was they are "poisonous". On this basis, from a marketing standpoint, is "poison" only part of the name for them or a description of them? Sure, we in the hobby know the answer, but most others do not. In the wild, poison is probably merely a description, but even the hobby sells wild caught frogs. The retail customer, who is not a frogger, as our marketing people tell us, will not buy dart frogs unless they are harmless, and we as a hobby have not done a great job getting the message out there making the distinction (wild caught versus captive bred). SAFE, for us means ONLY captive bred. For the sake of completeness, we are told trademarks designate the source of the goods and by definition CANNOT be descriptive. Of course, ANYONE could use the word safe in a descriptive sense at any time, for example, safe dart frogs, dart frogs are safe....and we wish the hobby would champion this message better for all of us. OUR TRADEMARK WILL NEVER EXCLUDE ANYBODY FROM USING THE WORD SAFE DESCRIPTIVELY. Our trademark is powerful for retail consumer confidence for captive breeding as PETS. We hope everyone looks at these as the terrific pets they are. BTW, the SAFE trademark is very much favored by retailers who sell dart frogs so we like it. We are thrilled you brought this issue up, many thanks and good eye!!! Further, for the fellow breeder, we are planning to offer free licenses to USE the SAFE trademark if they themselves ever retail only captive bred dart frogs, but since it (the trademark SAFE) is a designation of source and we own the mark, the lawyers tell us, it is us who need to make sure the other user's quality is up to snuff. If not, we could be injured by their poor products, while ours are top notch. Most all of us here on the boards are quality breeders, but some are not. This is an unfortunate fact. Have a great day and if you need some excellent quality safe dart frogs we sell under the SAFE brand to mean captive bred and nothing wild caught, let us know. For you, we will even hand pick them by the traits you specify! Have a great day!


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## daryl34

This add says 2000 frogs. OK I now that is not possible , Dillon, I understand your putting togather a business with your family. Thats great I hope you do well. That being said, made up names, as well as other factors make me wonder. Please be smart, being flamed is much easier than building up a reputation where people trust and value your opinion. This is a hobby where you build relationships ,as well develop in your ability to keep more complex organisms. If is just a quick buck, just be a flipper and be done with it. 


Good Luck,
Daryl


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## daryl34

Dillon,
Just read your post , sounds good please post pics.


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## Dillon Wascher

Daryl this is Dillon's dad. We met many times before and been to your house. We have over 2000 eggs and tads right now. We rent a facility and breed them here. WE DO NOT FLIP and I feel bad you would imply such a thing. Dillon convinced me to put his first year college money in this and sell the used 2004 Corvette we bought him for graduation based on his 5.0 and a 34/36 on the ACT and 800/800 on SAT biology and math scores to do this business. This is real and very much a family affair. Our daughter 11 years old makes our tad cups, and my two other sons make the 240 cultures a day for our own use!!! My youngest son spends hours on his knees feeding, misting, leafing, and tagging frog enclosure bins. Come visit, please!




daryl34 said:


> This add says 2000 frogs. OK I now that is not possible , Dillon, I understand your putting togather a business with your family. Thats great I hope you do well. That being said, made up names, as well as other factors make me wonder. Please be smart, being flamed is much easier than building up a reputation where people trust and value your opinion. This is a hobby where you build relationships ,as well develop in your ability to keep more complex organisms. If is just a quick buck, just be a flipper and be done with it.
> 
> 
> Good Luck,
> Daryl


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## Dillon Wascher

JJuchems said:


> I am not trying to be a down, just informative but other frog/reptile breeders have used A1 designation for their offspring. While you have trademarked it they still have the right to use it out of establishment.


Hi Jason, thanks for the info. We did not know they used it and will remove any claim to it. On the other marks, again we are going retail and Tinctorius, for example, is okay but powder grey does not give us an individual image. LUNAR does. When open retail with an enclosure of LUNAR powder grey SAFE dart frogs we think the customer will be happier.


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## Phyllobates

phender said:


> What's with the "Sunbee", "Aurora", "Lunar", etc. Are you trying to make your own "common" name for the frogs? They already have morph names. I don't get it. It makes you seem either amateurish, or like you are just over marketing.


I agree. There is enough confusion in this hobby over naming and nomenclature. Why throw more names into the mix?

Best of luck on your family endeavor.

Chris


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## daryl34

Thats great, but understand where I am coming from, I know where you started, and in a short amount of time, things have changed. 

I hope you do well, but in two adds in 2 days, I see the numbers 2000 for sale , then 1400 for sale. It make me wonder like many, whats going on. 
I think its great what you are working on, and its great, my 15 yr old helps me all time.  I post my contact info at the bottom of every post. I am unavailable next week, we can talk further. 

Daryl


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## FroggyKnight

Ok. Dillon, I want you to know that I will never buy frogs that are marketed in this way. I strongly oppose your use of "sunbee" or "lunar" as these frogs are already established under other names. I would also like to point out that the dart frog hobby is NOT like the keeping ball pythons, we try to avoid the excessively fancy names and instead use species and the known locale. If a locale is not known then they may be named something different of course, but your animals *are not different*, they don't have the right to be called a different name.

Another thing I do not like personally is that Q system you use. Why can't you just say the age? It would eliminate some of the confusion when looking at your site. I know I was confused


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## Dendro Dave

I Just have a few points/questions... You guys have the benefit of the doubt like anyone else starting out. (So this is in a friendly tone )


1. Why no names on the websites? You go by name here, but looks like someone who isn't on DB isn't going to find the owners names on the site. Anytime I can't find names associated with a business, my guard goes up. Also the contact form is ok, but I really dislike it when I'm forced to use those and don't have the actual email addresses to contact vendors directly where I can store copies of all the emails sent/received and keep records of transactions. A buisness making this difficult for me again puts me on guard. 

2. The "Safe" thing... Ok I get wanting to educate the public and expand your market, but until I read the site more my mind naturally went to the place that you are suggesting these were more disease free or something then other Darts. Some better clarification on what you mean by "safe" on the site might be nice. I don't really see anything that makes these more "safe" then any other darts. So it sounds like mostly "marketing".

3. A small criticism.... All the marketing stuff with "safe" and etc..etc.. gave me the impression as someone who's been in the hobby for almost 10 years that someone was trying to blow smoke up my butt, or up the butt of new hobbyists. It seems you are kinda trying out a new sales style or something and that's cool, but like I said the feel I got when reading the site was "smoke up my butt", so it's your call but you might wanna tone the marketing lingo down a bit and give the site a more sincere feel. The proprietary names and a lot of the other marketing stuff is likely to alienate the core hobbyist. 

4. This kinda goes along with 3... The "science" and "research" aspects of the the marketing kinda seem kinda superficial, and more a marketing ploy then any real science going on. Also the color phenotyping at it's most harmless seems kinda pointless, and at its worst almost seems like you are trying to position yourself to start line breeding and creating designer dart frogs under the justification that the experts say our hobby names are meaningless as far as the species goes. 

In many of those cases those morphs/locale names represent "races" and/or "locales" of dart frogs, and I think most of us know that an oyapock is near genetically identical to an azureus, but if you start crossing them based on the idea "well they're all tincs", you're going to get lynched by the hobby community, because we want to have those frogs continue to represent a morph/race or what would be found in a specific locale. We want our frogs to be as representative of the wild population that particular frog's ancestors or whatever came from, and generally try to segregate them in our homes like they would be in the wild. 

If you're going to try to change that, you're going to meet with a lot of resistance. If that isn't your plan then I'm not really sure what the point of the phenotyping research is all about. It seems like your saying based on phenotype you can make the healthiest pair with the healthiest offspring, and If that is your claim it seems kinda dubious. Some clarification and supporting evidence might be good. 

5. Lastly, I saw you guys sold a bunch of frogs earlier in the month, but have no feedback thread (did I miss it) Why? ...And can we expect this to change soon?

Anyways like I said, you've got the benefit of the doubt for now, but just the overall feel I get from your site makes me wary for some reason. Just throwing all this out there with the intent for it to be constructive criticism not a lynching 


A note on the Q system... Ok I don't really know why people have a problem with this, or what is confusing about it. All it seems to be is shorthand for the age so they can't easily setup and keep their pricing straight. I got no problem with it and with their tiered pricing it makes perfect sense to have something kinda short hand to easily designate and separate frogs for the website.


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## curlykid

One thing is for sure and that is that throwing big numbers around does not impress hobbyists. We are not interested in knowing that you guys are selling to big chains and many more hobbyists who are not active on forums who may not know the proper care of the frogs. Most of those who read the thread, including me, actually shutter at the fact that you are distributing so many frogs. Most hobbyists are interested in the smaller breeders who are usually more punctual in the care of the frogs. It seems like everyday our standards are dropping more and more in this community.


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## Dillon Wascher

Thanks Daryl! The 1400 was the number we picked last night before we submitted the ad, and it was a conservative guess last night. The classified did not get posted until a little while ago. In the interim, Dillon used a calculator to count the number of frogs offered directly from the website and he got 2020. The numbers were generated originally by looking at/in each enclosure and then tabulating them. No guesstimates! The backoffice spreadsheet for Q2-Q4 only gave 1774, but I did not include count some pairs and adults and others allocated for retail sale right now. Dillon changed the number under his signature to be over 3,000 frogs in house (as a facility), but that includes Q1 (0-3 month old froglets too). We look forward to chatting with you! Oh yeah, what do you think of the shipping idea we have for the hobby: ShipYourFrogs

(As to the short time span, Dillon harvests every single egg. We have "egg reports" for every couple of days and could provide anyone the data match to our frogs and eggs for correlation. We will show them to you personally, but not share them openly.)


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## Halter

I have a few questions myself. 
So you guys produce every single froglet yourself? Is there anyway you could post a picture of your facility? 
Are all of your producing adults captive bred? Is there a particular line that you got a lot of your frogs from?
I am also curious on your shipping methods. What type of packaging do you use to ship to Pennsylvania in the middle of winter when it is 10 degrees outside? 
Do your frogs have any warranties?

I like your website and the idea. I wish there was more pictures for the buyer to make a better decision of what is what. For example, if your target market is the newer hobbyist, just having a list of the auratus or tincs that you have without pictures can throw some people off, and can ultimately hurt the decision that they make. Just a thought.

Good luck on your family endeavor.


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## JJuchems

You have responded so can you please answer this question that have been asked: 



phender said:


> What's with the "Sunbee", "Aurora", "Lunar", etc. Are you trying to make your own "common" name for the frogs? They already have morph names. I don't get it. It makes you seem either amateurish, or like you are just over marketing.


This has has done no favors for the hobby, but only adding confusion to your customer base. 

Also, why does your "Breeding Stock" state USA Frogs and FrogZoo? Again, not clear to future customers. And what is your current number of breeding pairs?


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## Dendro Dave

Oh another suggestion that I would like to see all vendors do us list upfront which lines they are working with and what the lines are of the frogs we'll get on the site.

You claim on the site you have this info and that all frogs have great "pedigrees" but the closest thing you have listed on the sale page to this info is "*Breeding Stock: U.S.A. Frog and FrogZoo"* for all frogs... That doesn't tell me what line they are unless you are claiming credit for every line you sell, which would mean you had to have started with WC frogs for everything you sell...which I doubt is the case.


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## ndame88

Dillon Wascher said:


> Hey, thanks for the inquiry and comments. I can assure you quality is top on our list, and there are no gimmicks. Come visit our facility. We can give you a private tour. On the issues you raise, we did a pre-market study on dart frogs and why they are not perceived as a retail pet assuming supply issues could be overcome. In fact, last Tuesday we met with the owner of a five store chain ($5M annually) to carry our frogs. They saw this as the ink jet printer and ink model. Frogs and flies are profitable. This was our second meeting with a third scheduled for this coming Tuesday. Our marketing study and theirs gave the same result. The overwhelming number one response as to why people who knew what a dart frog is, and a surprising many do not, was they are "poisonous". On this basis, from a marketing standpoint, is "poison" only part of the name for them or a description of them? Sure, we in the hobby know the answer, but most others do not. In the wild, poison is probably merely a description, but even the hobby sells wild caught frogs. The retail customer, who is not a frogger, as our marketing people tell us, will not buy dart frogs unless they are harmless, and we as a hobby have not done a great job getting the message out there making the distinction (wild caught versus captive bred). SAFE, for us means ONLY captive bred. For the sake of completeness, we are told trademarks designate the source of the goods and by definition CANNOT be descriptive. Of course, ANYONE could use the word safe in a descriptive sense at any time, for example, safe dart frogs, dart frogs are safe....and we wish the hobby would champion this message better for all of us. OUR TRADEMARK WILL NEVER EXCLUDE ANYBODY FROM USING THE WORD SAFE DESCRIPTIVELY. Our trademark is powerful for retail consumer confidence for captive breeding as PETS. We hope everyone looks at these as the terrific pets they are. BTW, the SAFE trademark is very much favored by retailers who sell dart frogs so we like it. We are thrilled you brought this issue up, many thanks and good eye!!! Further, for the fellow breeder, we are planning to offer free licenses to USE the SAFE trademark if they themselves ever retail only captive bred dart frogs, but since it (the trademark SAFE) is a designation of source and we own the mark, the lawyers tell us, it is us who need to make sure the other user's quality is up to snuff. If not, we could be injured by their poor products, while ours are top notch. Most all of us here on the boards are quality breeders, but some are not. This is an unfortunate fact. Have a great day and if you need some excellent quality safe dart frogs we sell under the SAFE brand to mean captive bred and nothing wild caught, let us know. For you, we will even hand pick them by the traits you specify! Have a great day!



I am sure you have quality frogs, but this post makes me feel as if all that matters is selling frogs to whoever by making our hobby "more marketable". PDF are not for everyone, nor should they be unless you have researched and fully understand what is involved with keeping PDFs. I enjoy the scientific approach to our hobby and by trying to dumb it down kinda offends me. Sorry just my opinion and little rant.


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## Splash&Dash

curlykid said:


> One thing is for sure and that is that throwing big numbers around does not impress hobbyists. We are not interested in knowing that you guys are selling to big chains and many more hobbyists who are not active on forums who may not know the proper care of the frogs. Most of those who read the thread, including me, actually shutter at the fact that you are distributing so many frogs. Most hobbyists are interested in the smaller breeders who are usually more punctual in the care of the frogs. It seems like everyday our standards are dropping more and more in this community.


I really don't get this criticism? All they are doing is filling demand, a demand that is going to exist and be filled by frogs from their facility, others, or imports. Also, I kept frogs for many years very competently without having much interest in joining a forum, and it's rather silly assuming that someone would simply lack knowledge due to not being present on them, or magically gain it when a member


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## JeremyHuff

I'm only seeing 10 frogs (5 pairs) on the website. Am I missing something? Also, show pics of the warehouse.


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## LizardLicker

I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor, but I would not feel comfortable ordering from your site. 

From the silly frog names, the strange age labels, the lack of information, to the fact that you even thought to trademark the word, "safe."

I doubt very seriously that I'm your target market anyway.. But these things make me nervous. Seeing the word, "bicolor" on a drop down menu does not provide enough background for me to make an informed decision about what I am actually buying. 

I do hope that you can find a place in the hobby and provide some nice animals for people to enjoy. However, I think a little more information and background would be welcomed.


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## frogface

Good luck with this, guys! 

I'd take the constructive criticism on this thread as a gift and go from there. Make some adjustments and move forward, and, keep us posted.


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## JayMillz

This sounds really cool Dillon/Dillon's dad. I wish I could get something like that going with my family lol. I have a couple of suggestions, and that's all that they are...suggestions. If you're a family owned and operated company, why not emphasize that on your site and have a picture of the whole gang together hanging out in the frog room? There's also a lot of do's and don'ts with lots of frogs in regards to the location of the population and even the import years. Your website would look more attractive if you showed pictures of your actual breeding pairs and also mentioned any lineage (SR fall 2012, or UE for example). If you don't mind me asking, who did you get all of your frogs from to start up your operation? Starting up a new endeavor like this can be risky, and absolute clear transparency is going to give you guys the best chance of success in my opinion. How often do you guys have fecal samples tested on your frogs? A lot of people QT their new frogs no matter who they get them from to prevent possibly infecting their entire collection and all it takes is for one bad fecal result to come in from the vet and then you receive 1 negative feedback which can be read by many many people who will instead just buy from the established and reputable companies who have been around for a long time. I wish you guys the best of luck and would really like to see some more pictures on the website. Just keep in mind that you can do 99 good things for someone, but if you do 1 bad thing, that's what they will remember.


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## pafrogguy

Id love to see the 2000 frogs for sale myself. And the number of pairs it took to produce them.


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## JeremyHuff

Dillon
Thank you for adding the photos to the site. More please! You have a very impressive set up.


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## edwardsatc

Dillon Wascher said:


> Hey, thanks for the inquiry and comments. I can assure you quality is top on our list, and there are no gimmicks. Come visit our facility. We can give you a private tour. On the issues you raise, we did a pre-market study on dart frogs and why they are not perceived as a retail pet assuming supply issues could be overcome. In fact, last Tuesday we met with the owner of a five store chain ($5M annually) to carry our frogs. They saw this as the ink jet printer and ink model. Frogs and flies are profitable. This was our second meeting with a third scheduled for this coming Tuesday. Our marketing study and theirs gave the same result. The overwhelming number one response as to why people who knew what a dart frog is, and a surprising many do not, was they are "poisonous". On this basis, from a marketing standpoint, is "poison" only part of the name for them or a description of them? Sure, we in the hobby know the answer, but most others do not. In the wild, poison is probably merely a description, but even the hobby sells wild caught frogs. The retail customer, who is not a frogger, as our marketing people tell us, will not buy dart frogs unless they are harmless, and we as a hobby have not done a great job getting the message out there making the distinction (wild caught versus captive bred). SAFE, for us means ONLY captive bred. For the sake of completeness, we are told trademarks designate the source of the goods and by definition CANNOT be descriptive. Of course, ANYONE could use the word safe in a descriptive sense at any time, for example, safe dart frogs, dart frogs are safe....and we wish the hobby would champion this message better for all of us. OUR TRADEMARK WILL NEVER EXCLUDE ANYBODY FROM USING THE WORD SAFE DESCRIPTIVELY. Our trademark is powerful for retail consumer confidence for captive breeding as PETS. We hope everyone looks at these as the terrific pets they are. BTW, the SAFE trademark is very much favored by retailers who sell dart frogs so we like it. We are thrilled you brought this issue up, many thanks and good eye!!! Further, for the fellow breeder, we are planning to offer free licenses to USE the SAFE trademark if they themselves ever retail only captive bred dart frogs, but since it (the trademark SAFE) is a designation of source and we own the mark, the lawyers tell us, it is us who need to make sure the other user's quality is up to snuff. If not, we could be injured by their poor products, while ours are top notch. Most all of us here on the boards are quality breeders, but some are not. This is an unfortunate fact. Have a great day and if you need some excellent quality safe dart frogs we sell under the SAFE brand to mean captive bred and nothing wild caught, let us know. For you, we will even hand pick them by the traits you specify! Have a great day!


Thank you for the clarifications. I see you've also posted some pics of your frogroom and made some adjustments to your website. It's good to see that you are responsive to the concerns of those in the hobby. Best of luck to you and your family in this endeavor.


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## scoy

Looks good. My only question is how do you access you top opening tanks that are on the top shelf? I guess a little brother would come in handy there, haha.


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## ndame88

Nice pics of your operation, its great that you are running a family operation, plus getting rid of the strange names is a big plus!!


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## pafrogguy

I'm still seeing the names on there so not sure which you guys are referring to that were dropped. Cobalts still called Aurora, etc. I seen the pictures too. All I can say is congratulations. You went from not knowing how to morph a Leuc tad less than two years ago(per your previous posts) to apparently one of the biggest breeders there is in the US.... bravo? That is a big jump. Looks like you have your hands full though, so good luck on your endeavors


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## goof901

pafrogguy said:


> I'm still seeing the names on there so not sure which you guys are referring to that were dropped. Cobalts still called Aurora, etc. I seen the pictures too. All I can say is congratulations. You went from not knowing how to morph a Leuc tad less than two years ago(per your previous posts) to apparently one of the biggest breeders there is in the US.... bravo? That is a big jump. Looks like you have your hands full though, so good luck on your endeavors


I see the changes... They are all named like Powder blue, cobalts, etc. All the other names have been dropped.


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## Splash&Dash

pafrogguy said:


> I'm still seeing the names on there so not sure which you guys are referring to that were dropped. Cobalts still called Aurora, etc. I seen the pictures too. All I can say is congratulations. You went from not knowing how to morph a Leuc tad less than two years ago(per your previous posts) to apparently one of the biggest breeders there is in the US.... bravo? That is a big jump. Looks like you have your hands full though, so good luck on your endeavors


contrary to popular opinion, dart frogs are not the most complicated animals to keep, and for the more common species, seemingly breed (quite the opposite since I go out of my way not to breed and still get tads and eggs). So 2 years for someone eager to learn and willing to apply themselves doesn't seem unreasonable. After all, success is built on taking risks and applying yourself.

Honestly, the most difficult part seems to be keeping the environment within proper limits. Which for some people, is no more difficult than plugging in an AC unit


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## FroggyKnight

After browsing the website some more, I'm impressed with the variety of frogs you keep. At first I only saw leucs and tincs, but now I see you also have many auratus, bicolor, and vittatus! 

I have a few more suggestions though. Instead of using the brick design on your site, maybe go with a more natural appearance. Maybe some of the frogs you offer and their natural habitat instead. It would add greatly to the visual appeal to your site

You guys have my dream job...


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## Ed

Dillon Wascher said:


> The overwhelming number one response as to why people who knew what a dart frog is, and a surprising many do not, was they are "poisonous". On this basis, from a marketing standpoint, is "poison" only part of the name for them or a description of them? Sure, we in the hobby know the answer, but most others do not. In the wild, poison is probably merely a description, but even the hobby sells wild caught frogs. The retail customer, who is not a frogger, as our marketing people tell us, will not buy dart frogs unless they are harmless, and we as a hobby have not done a great job getting the message out there making the distinction (wild caught versus captive bred). SAFE, for us means ONLY captive bred.


While captive bred frogs may lack the alkaloids... it does not in any way mean that the frog is totally non-toxic. Frogs actively secrete a wide variety of peptides that can cause significant symptoms. Your asking for a major lawsuit by advertising them in that manner. 




Dillon Wascher said:


> but since it (the trademark SAFE) is a designation of source and we own the mark, the lawyers tell us, it is us who need to make sure the other user's quality is up to snuff. !


So did these same lawyers tell you that the term "One Hop" is already trademarked (in 2009)? 

Is there any reason in particular that none of your trademarked terms show up in a search of the US Trademark and Patent Database? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pafrogguy

I know they are not that difficult to keep and breed.... well most tinc morphs that is. I have been doing this since 1997, with the exception of a about a 5 year break when we had our first daughter. And I never said it couldn't be done. That is just a big leap is all I was saying. I personally have not seen 2000 frogs at one place at any given time, with the most being at Sean Stewart's, but by no means does that say it is not possible. And it does still have the names, but not on all of the links. It seems only for Cobalts, so maybe that was just missed. But it does specifically say, and I quote "These are adult Cobalt frogs we call refer to under the trademark AURORA. Our Cobalt frogs are very bright, hence the reason we wanted a new name." Nothing like renaming a locale because it is bright.


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## pafrogguy

Ahhh Ed, thanks. I thought I was the only one not immune to the smokescreen.


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## FroggyKnight

Good points Ed. I know nothing when it comes to trademarks and patents and such, but I do know my animals! Labeling *any* animal as safe is asking for a lawsuit at some point or another. Could you say a puppy is safe? In reality, no. It could scratch you. This is a minor example and it would be a stupid thing to get a lawsuit for, but hopefully you get my point.


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## Splash&Dash

pafrogguy said:


> I know they are not that difficult to keep and breed.... well most tinc morphs that is. I have been doing this since 1997, with the exception of a about a 5 year break when we had our first daughter. And I never said it couldn't be done. That is just a big leap is all I was saying. I personally have not seen 2000 frogs at one place at any given time, with the most being at Sean Stewart's, but by no means does that say it is not possible. And it does still have the names, but not on all of the links. It seems only for Cobalts, so maybe that was just missed. But it does specifically say, and I quote "These are adult Cobalt frogs we call refer to under the trademark AURORA. Our Cobalt frogs are very bright, hence the reason we wanted a new name." Nothing like renaming a locale because it is bright.



Yeah, i'm not going to defend the naming.  I was just more commenting on someone "learning" to breed some of the more common frogs in two years (seems we could add leucs, auratus and some of the imis to that list, from my personal experience). For me, I have much more difficulty in getting them not to breed.

As for the leap, I figure a breeder like this has the potential to put negative pressure on imports, both legal and illicit. So I'm not going to fault anyone for trying it if they're producing quality animals


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## Splash&Dash

Sean Stewert is the guy in Maryland that also has a pretty active breeding program with Chondros, right? Does he even work with the more common species? I always thought of him as more of a specialty breeder focusing on rarer and harder to find morphs


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## pafrogguy

That is a def fair and valid point. And you are correct in saying someone will fill that demand. I can appreciate that. However, it just seems like that is the only thing they are doing. Especially if they are doing market research etc. That in NO way contributes to the hobby. It contributes to the pet trade. Which leads to more people buying frogs on impulse, placing them in critter keepers etc. Which I know is going to happen anyways, but to see a focus on it, is upsetting. Just seems like that is the target audience. The frogs look just fine and I have heard from a couple that bought frogs from them, they were quality animals. Just the "presentation" of themselves leaves little to be desired. It honestly was similar to the launch of DFC in the way it is packaged for us to perceive. And that is disappointing.


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## JeremyHuff

Dillon, do you have a wholesale price list? If not and these prices are your wholesale, then you will have difficulty selling them to retailers if you are offering them for the same price to the general public. 

Also, offering and guaranteeing shipping during any weather is irresponsible if you care about the animals. FedEx isn't always on time especially during a snow or ice storm, hurricane, Christmas shipping time, etc. it is not worth the risk.


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## FrogZoo

As to others on the FedEx year round issue, we advertise year round, but nothing will make us ship when it is not a good idea. That is just not good business. Seriously guys, we are froggers to, we started as froggers and remain froggers. Are you suggesting anyone who loves frogs wants a buyer to get dead frogs. Sheesh!

Hi Ed!

This is my first post and last for a while! I write these comments as Dillon's dad, Rick, and very knowledgeable on the subject of IP law, and innovation. I'll spare the resume exerpt. 

I wanted to chime in and clarify a few things. The fact that some (or all) frogs have secretions is of little concern to us and our use of SAFE as a trademark. The trademark SAFE is used, as our trademark, for "captive bred amphibians". A trademark designates source and is not descriptive. In your post it seems you suggest the trademark is being used descriptively. It is not, and in fact the entire world could use safe for dart fogs descriptively, and we ENCOURAGE it. 

The entire purpose behind adopting the trademark, and yes there is a registration application filed, is to educate the consumer that we are a source of captive bred dart frogs. We could have used NOTOX or something like that, but we liked SAFE. On the "Spectrum of Distinctiveness" of trademark law, it falls in the suggestive and registrable category, not descriptive for the secretion reason you mentioned. Thanks for the help drawing the distinction.

To your comment about lawsuits, the safety (or not) of a frog is mostly irrelevant to trademark law. Product liability lawsuits can use TM use as facts, but they have minimal probative value as to the culpability necessary for liability to stick. Thus, TM law is a lot different than products liability. For us, USA Frog (parent company) and FrogZoo (educational operating company) and DartFrogWarehouse.com (the store), we use SAFE in the trademark sense to designate us as A source of captive bred amphibians, not THE source. 

On the "trademarked" ONE HOP there are about a dozen live ONE HOP type registrations. 

Thus, the answer to your question (below) is yes, we knew, and still claim trademark rights to it for: one stop air shipping of live harmless animals, but remain on the fence about registering it. That trademark will be assigned to the consortium shipping company idea for all of us if it ever goes, depending upon support. 

I mean no disrespect to you sir, but frankly, there is a lot about IP law you are leaving out. In short, please know, trademarks need not be registered federally or in any state to be trademark. There are common law trademarks and ALL trademark rights inure to the benefit of the owner based on USE. 

In re: the TM claims we made yesterday to the individual tinc (and one leuc) varieties, I think/hope we removed them from the site, and thanks to all for finding the crumbs. We took them off too, we hope. For the record, that entire branding fiasco was my fault, not Dillon's I assure you. We still claim our trademark rights to SAFE for "captive bred amphibians" because a multi-store chain customer Dillon and I met with likes it, and LOVES the frogs. I cannot say more about the business dealing, but we hope we get the deal done. 

As I said yesterday, we would be very willing, AND HAPPY, to grant a free license to ANY hobbyist selling retail who wants to use SAFE for CAPTIVE BRED dart frogs. If they sell wild caught, we will not grant a license, but again, NOTHING is stopping anyone from using safe dart frogs in the descriptive sense and we hope you do, and water down our own trademark. That would be great, because people would know these captive bred beauties are NOT poison. Frankly, we do not have enough frogs to satisfy demand if it ever kicks in. We would be lucky to handle our area. 

We simply want to get the truth out there and drive change in the mind of people who LOVE these frogs. Our test marketing IN STORES says people will buy them IF AND ONLY IF they are NOT poison!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (BTW, the in store tests were NOT conducted by us, but by our multi-store contact so the data is REAL.)

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with hard questions, but they demand hard answers. I suspect you are a no-nonsense guy, and we honor that! 

Have a great day and thanks again. Rick

P.S. The "lawyers" are me and my colleagues through the years. I am an IP lawyer and gave it up for this because we love the frogs and family side of this business more than anything. 



Ed said:


> While captive bred frogs may lack the alkaloids... it does not in any way mean that the frog is totally non-toxic. Frogs actively secrete a wide variety of peptides that can cause significant symptoms. Your asking for a major lawsuit by advertising them in that manner.
> 
> So did these same lawyers tell you that the term "One Hop" is already trademarked (in 2009)?
> 
> Is there any reason in particular that none of your trademarked terms show up in a search of the US Trademark and Patent Database?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## Dane

pafrogguy said:


> . Just the "presentation" of themselves leaves little to be desired. It honestly was similar to the launch of DFC in the way it is packaged for us to perceive. And that is disappointing.


Glad I wasnt the only one that saw that similarity. It's a bit of a disappointment when folks seem to look at fogging with dollar signs in their eyes.


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## FrogZoo

Hi Jeremy, We truly enjoy what you say. These prices are for a limited time. I thought we said that in our post, but maybe not so well. We wanted to get them to our board friends first as a *Grand Opening special*.

I had to respond because we truly do value you and everyone here!

Rick





JeremyHuff said:


> Dillon, do you have a wholesale price list? If not and these prices are your wholesale, then you will have difficulty selling them to retailers if you are offering them for the same price to the general public.
> 
> Also, offering and guaranteeing shipping during any weather is irresponsible if you care about the animals. FedEx isn't always on time especially during a snow or ice storm, hurricane, Christmas shipping time, etc. it is not worth the risk.


----------



## FrogZoo

To All,

We honestly thought you, as our friends and fellow froggers would have taken this as a GREAT opportunity to buy some excellent frogs at excellent prices for a limited time. Some have and thank you! How could we not open this to you first? We bought our breeding stock from many of you! The public won't see our site for awhile because of the search engine listings take time. We are pretty much invisible to the rest of the world, and just opened this to you. BTW, our multi-store potential client is NOT a pet store, they specialize in educational items, and a big win for all of us if it goes. We retain the upscale nature of these beauties. 

Have a great day and please consider our current prices a great resource for you, and our way of saying thanks! An enemy does not offer grand opening prices like that any time. 

Rick


----------



## Splash&Dash

FrogZoo said:


> Hi Jeremy, We truly enjoy what you say. These prices are for a limited time. I thought we said that in our post, but maybe not so well. We wanted to get them to our board friends first as a *Grand Opening special*.
> 
> I had to respond because we truly do value you and everyone here!
> 
> Rick


If you guys are not opposed to some constructive criticism of your web design, could I suggest including pictures with the variety/species/morph and ages categories? It just tends to create a more comfortable shopping experience, especially for the first time buyer. 


Also, the general design and use of graphics seem a little outdated.


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## phender

So USA Frog and FrogZoo are you. You say on your home page that, "Their pedigrees are known and of the high regard in the hobby" (copied and pasted, the grammatical error is yours). I was expecting where it says, "Breeding Stock" on the individual frog pages that you would have put some pedigree information instead of telling us the parents belong to you. The source of your original breeding stock would have been more helpful to me and supported what you said on your home page.
When I looked at it the first time, I thought, they say that they have respected pedigrees, but I have not heard of the group from whom they purchased all their frogs. It threw up a big red flag for me. Now that I know that you are USA Frogs and Frog Zoo it makes more sense, but I already assumed that the parents were yours. I'm assuming you wrote that in to show people you weren't just flipping frogs bred by someone else, but you can say that once on the home page and be done with it. I would rather see the origin of your breeding stock on the individual frog pages.
Now, I don't know of any other website that reveals the origin of their stock, but since you claim on your site that your pedigrees are highly respected, you should probably back it up.


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## mjahnke

Look at the feedback they've left from frogs bought over the last couple of years. I'm guessing that's the "high pedigree".


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## oldlady25715

Hope you did a market study on how to move that many frogs in an already oversaturated supply market. The only way I see would be to get chain stores to carry them, but I've worked at Petco and IMO darts would not last long there because the setups are not designed for darts and the employees have high turnover rates and therefore don't know how to care for many of the herps they currently sell.

If you can successfully expand the demand for darts in a constructive way, kudos to you.


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## JJuchems

oldlady25715 said:


> Hope you did a market study on how to move that many frogs in an already oversaturated supply market. The only way I see would be to get chain stores to carry them, but I've worked at Petco and IMO darts would not last long there because the setups are not designed for darts and the employees have high turnover rates and therefore don't know how to care for many of the herps they currently sell.
> 
> If you can successfully expand the demand for darts in a constructive way, kudos to you.


The chain stores have carried them in the past and have chosen not to for a variety of reason and habitat design is one reason.


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## curlykid

DartFrogWarehouse, FrogZoo, and USAFrog? Is there a point to having three companies under the same roof?


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## JeremyHuff

FrogZoo said:


> As to others on the FedEx year round issue, we advertise year round, but nothing will make us ship when it is not a good idea. That is just not good business. Seriously guys, we are froggers to, we started as froggers and remain froggers. Are you suggesting anyone who loves frogs wants a buyer to get dead frogs. Sheesh!


This is what I would expect but on your home page you write:
Our wholesale warehouse facility is much less a warehouse than it is a breeding and innovation facility. We are located minutes from the Federal Express Worldwide (Global) hub where ALL FedEx shipments are processed each night. This means the frogs and tads we ship to you make ONE, and ONLY ONE, hop to your local FedEx Service Center for your personal pickup. We are the only commercial seller of captive bred dart frogs able to ship throughout the entire year, all fifty-two (52) weeks, even in the most extreme weather conditions! ONE HOP™ is our ONE HOP stop trademark for shipping, and nobody but us offers it! Christmas gifts to Maine, no problem! Birthday gifts to Arizona in August, no problem! We provide ONE HOP SHIPPING and begin your shipment at the FedEx hub, so it goes directly to you without being rerouted.

This would suggest that you will ship during the most extreme weather!
Also, I think every commercial seller or breeder will ship in an week of the year if the conditions work. Claiming you are the only one is just plain false.


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## Dendro Dave

Dendro Dave said:


> I Just have a few points/questions... You guys have the benefit of the doubt like anyone else starting out. (So this is in a friendly tone )
> 
> 
> 1. Why no names on the websites? You go by name here, but looks like someone who isn't on DB isn't going to find the owners names on the site. Anytime I can't find names associated with a business, my guard goes up. Also the contact form is ok, but I really dislike it when I'm forced to use those and don't have the actual email addresses to contact vendors directly where I can store copies of all the emails sent/received and keep records of transactions. A buisness making this difficult for me again puts me on guard.
> 
> 2. The "Safe" thing... Ok I get wanting to educate the public and expand your market, but until I read the site more my mind naturally went to the place that you are suggesting these were more disease free or something then other Darts. Some better clarification on what you mean by "safe" on the site might be nice. I don't really see anything that makes these more "safe" then any other darts. So it sounds like mostly "marketing".
> 
> 3. A small criticism.... All the marketing stuff with "safe" and etc..etc.. gave me the impression as someone who's been in the hobby for almost 10 years that someone was trying to blow smoke up my butt, or up the butt of new hobbyists. It seems you are kinda trying out a new sales style or something and that's cool, but like I said the feel I got when reading the site was "smoke up my butt", so it's your call but you might wanna tone the marketing lingo down a bit and give the site a more sincere feel. The proprietary names and a lot of the other marketing stuff is likely to alienate the core hobbyist.
> 
> 4. This kinda goes along with 3... The "science" and "research" aspects of the the marketing kinda seem kinda superficial, and more a marketing ploy then any real science going on. Also the color phenotyping at it's most harmless seems kinda pointless, and at its worst almost seems like you are trying to position yourself to start line breeding and creating designer dart frogs under the justification that the experts say our hobby names are meaningless as far as the species goes.
> 
> In many of those cases those morphs/locale names represent "races" and/or "locales" of dart frogs, and I think most of us know that an oyapock is near genetically identical to an azureus, but if you start crossing them based on the idea "well they're all tincs", you're going to get lynched by the hobby community, because we want to have those frogs continue to represent a morph/race or what would be found in a specific locale. We want our frogs to be as representative of the wild population that particular frog's ancestors or whatever came from, and generally try to segregate them in our homes like they would be in the wild.
> 
> If you're going to try to change that, you're going to meet with a lot of resistance. If that isn't your plan then I'm not really sure what the point of the phenotyping research is all about. It seems like your saying based on phenotype you can make the healthiest pair with the healthiest offspring, and If that is your claim it seems kinda dubious. Some clarification and supporting evidence might be good.
> 
> 5. Lastly, I saw you guys sold a bunch of frogs earlier in the month, but have no feedback thread (did I miss it) Why? ...And can we expect this to change soon?
> 
> Anyways like I said, you've got the benefit of the doubt for now, but just the overall feel I get from your site makes me wary for some reason. Just throwing all this out there with the intent for it to be constructive criticism not a lynching
> 
> 
> A note on the Q system... Ok I don't really know why people have a problem with this, or what is confusing about it. All it seems to be is shorthand for the age so they can't easily setup and keep their pricing straight. I got no problem with it and with their tiered pricing it makes perfect sense to have something kinda short hand to easily designate and separate frogs for the website.






FrogZoo said:


> To All,
> 
> We honestly thought you, as our friends and fellow froggers would have taken this as a GREAT opportunity to buy some excellent frogs at excellent prices for a limited time. Some have and thank you! How could we not open this to you first? We bought our breeding stock from many of you! The public won't see our site for awhile because of the search engine listings take time. We are pretty much invisible to the rest of the world, and just opened this to you. BTW, our multi-store potential client is NOT a pet store, they specialize in educational items, and a big win for all of us if it goes. We retain the upscale nature of these beauties.
> 
> Have a great day and please consider our current prices a great resource for you, and our way of saying thanks! An enemy does not offer grand opening prices like that any time.
> 
> Rick


I don't view you as the enemy, but I also don't feel like you've adequately addressed the points/questions of mine that I made earlier.

I think you have to expect some healthy skepticism when coming onto the scene so large and out of the blue, especially with the Dartfrogconnection drama that happened awhile back(as someone else mentioned). 

You're kinda entering into this at a time when mistrust is fairly high in the hobby. The best way to deal with that is to address our concerns point by point, and then build and maintain an excellent reputation as you conduct business. 

Dealing with our concerns, skepticism and even paranoia is the cost of doing business in this hobby I'm afraid. I don't understand how everyone who opens a commercial operation in this hobby seems to be surprised by this. 

Anyways, I think you have good intentions but your marketing approach especially with the DFC crap that went down was ill conceived. There are enough parallels that it makes many of us nervous.

Oh and any chance we are going to see the actual line/orgin info on the website rather then "Breeding Stock: U.S.A. Frog"???. That tells me nothing about the actual orgins/line info of the frogs.


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## Splash&Dash

Dendro Dave said:


> You're kinda entering into this at a time when mistrust is fairly high in the hobby.


was there ever a low point?


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## JJuchems

FrogZoo said:


> As to others on the FedEx year round issue, we advertise year round, but nothing will make us ship when it is not a good idea. That is just not good business. Seriously guys, we are froggers to, we started as froggers and remain froggers. Are you suggesting anyone who loves frogs wants a buyer to get dead frogs. Sheesh!


So why advertise as such? It is not responsible and giving the impression that no matter what you will ship. Those who have done this professionally for years spell out their shipping guidelines so it is clear to all customers and have terms of Sale. 



FrogZoo said:


> This is my first post and last for a while! I write these comments as Dillon's dad, Rick, and very knowledgeable on the subject of IP law, and innovation. I'll spare the resume exerpt. ...


An an attorney I am sure you read the TOS and realize you have violated General Norms E and F. I would also think you would have a clearly written terms of sale listed. 



FrogZoo said:


> In re: the TM claims we made yesterday to the individual tinc (and one leuc) varieties, I think/hope we removed them from the site, and thanks to all for finding the crumbs. We took them off too, we hope. For the record, that entire branding fiasco was my fault, not Dillon's I assure you. ...


This makes your entire operation look amateurish at best, if not a scam to make morphs to drive business to make a quick buck. If you conducted market research, why did you not do so in the hobby? This is a niche hobby. Large scale breeders have tried working with Dendrobatidae, did you contact them over hurdles ect? 



Dillon Wascher said:


> Hi, it's me again. My third tad (the completely non-buoyant one) just popped his second front leg this morning! ...(a bunch of questions)... Any advice will be appreciated, and thanks as usual for reading through my copious amounts of questions. I want to make sure I do this right!


So you have been breeding frogs for 2 years, and now you are trying to change the market with all this branding. And stating in a bragging fashion you have over 3,000 frogs/tadpoles/eggs. I know some large scale breeders (not just darts) and I don't see them throwing numbers around of forums, changing existing names, ect. 

So again, how many breeding pairs do you have that has immersed this collection for sale? Why are you not posting source/bloodline of your frogs?

Keep in mind there is an industry and hobby here that is constantly fighting legislation (state and federal), federal rule changes, and stereotypes. Being involved in the hobby brings an understanding of these issues and the issues with the hobby that you have already started to effect negatively with your branding. I think more people are shocked and surprised by your claims and just coming out of know where, let alone someone who has not been active in the hobby outside of giving vendor feedback. I agree with Dave, I don't feel like you've adequately addressed the points/questions.


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## CJW

A lot of this has been said so I apologize, I just really feel strongly about this subject (clearly not the only one). 
Very impressed with all this, and you are taking the standard DB interrogation very well. I really would love to see you guys succeed, but please continue to listen to some of these guys. These are species that most of us would consider easy to care for. When compared to other animals (in hobbies or the pet trade) that are marketed in similar ways however, they take a lot more to keep up with CORRECT husbandry. I am sure you will all agree. 

Definitely not accusing here, but the vast majority who like the idea of dart frogs in their house will run scared the instant you mention cultures, live plants, tank cycling, fecal testing, etc. Education on this fact needs to come first, and is the basis for why there is a dry scientific side to this hobby. Many of these are frogs from lines that were smuggled out of their country of origin, often illegally, and often from populations that are under pressure in the wild. This is not info to be hidden, that does nobody any favors. To distance these frogs frogs from where they came from and their story is risky business and will alienate the hobby very quickly. The marketing tactics you have chosen are doing just that. 

People are drawn to these frogs for their colors, but the biology and population dynamics behind them are what lead people to keep these animals at home. Someone who is not concerned with those aspects will more than likely not enjoy caring for these frogs for any length of time. I understand how a business is run, but transparency is key when talking about live animals with high standards of care.

You guys clearly have the heart and the knowhow, if you get the hobby on your side this could really be great. But if you market these frogs like leopard geckos, you will crash and burn.


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## JJuchems

CJW said:


> But if you market these frogs like leopard geckos, you will crash and burn.


I think you hit the nail on the head.


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## Splash&Dash

JJuchems said:


> An an attorney I am sure you read the TOS and realize you have violated General Norms E and F. I would also think you would have a clearly written terms of sale listed.


Playing mod over a simple oversight makes you look bitter, mate. if you feel it's really worth dealing with just contact a mod.


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## phender

I like the changes you have made to your home page.

If I could make one more suggestion. I know you probably put a lot of thought into your age classification system and are very proud of it, but when I am shopping for frogs, I shop for a type(species or morph) of frog. I don't shop for a frog of a certain age. My suggestion would be to keep your three main catalog pages (auratus, tincs and misc), but when I go to those pages I would like to see pictures of the various species/morphs of those frogs. When I click on the frog then take me to a page that has a pull-down menu that allows me to select the age of the frogs.

There are some frogs that I might have no idea you offered because you only have them on your Q4 page and I didn't happen to look there. If you have a pic on one of your 3 main pages, then I know exactly what you have and then I can figure out what stage of development I want.


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## phender

Just as any example.

You have a couple beautiful pictures of your 2 E. anthonyi morphs, but you don't have them on your "others" page in your examples pictures. You don't have them in your Q4s. You have them listed in the Q2 and Q3 section in the pull-down menus, but even then I would have to know what a zarayunga or santa isabella was before I would select it to even see the great picture. You need to get those pics out where people can see it as say, "what is that, I need that".


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Wait, lowest competitor price for vittatus is $86? That is a flat out lie.


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## Gamble

I'm just gonna say it without going into a detailed tirade ... 

Your excuse that you are trying to educate the masses is just that ... a convenient excuse.

Let's just call it what it is ... A quick cash grab.

I can't speak for everyone, (but i can guarantee there are many others who feel the same), the simple fact that you did what you did, whether you've changed certain things or not, IMO is a slap in the face to everything the hobby stands for & the fact that you did not take that into consideration BEFORE you did it speaks volumes on where your true loyalties lie ... to your bank account.

End Rant.


----------



## pafrogguy

I must have missed what they have done for the community. Selling cheap frogs is just that, selling cheap frogs. Must be doing amazing to leave a job as a successful IP lawyer to help out with a frog business. 

Gamble- well said


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## frogface

epiphytes etc. said:


> Wait, lowest competitor price for vittatus is $86? That is a flat out lie.


Hey guys, I'm trying to keep an open mind here but giving false info to make your frogs look like the deal of the century is not acceptable, IMO. Seriously, if you make an honest business out if it you will be much better off. Don't try to fool the frog community. We've been around the block and back and some of us are professional breeders and some are professional herpetologists. Don't try to fool us; it won't work. Really.


----------



## Gamble

frogface said:


> Hey guys, I'm trying to keep an open mind here but giving false info to make your frogs look like the deal of the century is not acceptable, IMO. Seriously, if you make an honest business out if it you will be much better off. Don't try to fool the frog community. We've been around the block and back and some of us are professional breeders and some are professional herpetologists. Don't try to fool us; it won't work. Really.


It's already been made obvious ... They don't care about what we, the hobby think.

I liken them to Microsoft & their Xbox One blunder.
They didn't change their policies until after public backlash.

Same thing here.

We'll it's too late for me ... where they messed up was deciding to be reactive instead of being proactive.

So I'm gonna be SAFE and advise everyone I know not to do business with them. Period.


----------



## srrrio

I would have to agree with Gamble and the rest...
Just my personal feelings. I raise probably 1/4 of what my collection of frogs is capable of, and that is with cycling them down every year.and some species like my Hawaiian aurtatus I have not bred in several years. 

As of last year I started raising a bit more. I keep having this war with myself that by producing more of the frogs that new people generally want ..leucs, tincs, etc and I sell to more to pet stores and other froggers that flip.. I may, in some small way, keep those retailers from ordering from wild caught list. I must be smoking something because I realizie that the classic frogs and even the more rare species ..all the prices have dropped by quite a bit and it seems that the demand for wild caught is still there In fact I have been blown away by some of the low prices offered in the DB classifieds. 

So a year ago I would have not thought it is such a bad thing for a large PDF company to sell cheap to retailers and whoever wants cheap frogs. Now I just think it just hurts the hobbyists and businesses that have paid their dues and does absolutely nothing for conservation.


----------



## FroggyKnight

frogface said:


> Hey guys, I'm trying to keep an open mind here but giving false info to make your frogs look like the deal of the century is not acceptable, IMO. Seriously, if you make an honest business out if it you will be much better off. Don't try to fool the frog community. We've been around the block and back and some of us are professional breeders and some are professional herpetologists. Don't try to fool us; it won't work. Really.


And don't even think about foolin' newbies! I've seen those frogs at much lower prices from other established and reputable breeders.

It may seem like we have been asking you to make huge changes in your marketing and such, but thats because we are. Your initial marketing and website was full of flaws and was in general very unimpressive, especially when compared to your recent success with breeding (3000 frogs, really?). but I must also applaud you for your fast changes. 

You have taken our advise better than many would. I just want you to know there is still room for improvement!


----------



## Gamble

FroggyKnight said:


> And don't even think about foolin' newbies! I've seen those frogs at much lower prices from other established and reputable breeders.
> 
> It may seem like we have been asking you to make huge changes in your marketing and such, but thats because we are. Your initial marketing and website was full of flaws and was in general very unimpressive, especially when compared to your recent success with breeding (3000 frogs, really?). but I must also applaud you for your fast changes.
> 
> You have taken our advise better than many would. I just want you to know there is still room for improvement!


What do you expect from someone with only 2 years experience?!

Some of us have been in the hobby ALOT longer & are STILL learning!
But yet this person thinks he knows enough to educate the general public, let alone have a mistake free website ... yeah not so much.

It's just another spoiled rich kid spending money on something he doesn't have the expertise in doing just bc he can. Typical "Rich Person" mentality.


----------



## frogface

epiphytes etc. said:


> Wait, lowest competitor price for vittatus is $86? That is a flat out lie.


Ok, in fairness, that was for an adult. Here is the list:

4-6 months: competitor 39.99, DFW 19.95
7-9 months: competitor 44.95, DFW 29.95
10-12 months: competitor 85.95, DFW 39.95

DFW, the prices you list as your sale prices are around what I would expect in prices for this particular frog from any seller.


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## FroggyKnight

Gamble said:


> It's already been made obvious ... They don't care about what we, the hobby think.
> 
> I liken them to Microsoft & their Xbox One blunder.
> They didn't change their policies until after public backlash.
> 
> Same thing here.
> 
> We'll it's too late for me ... where they messed up was deciding to be reactive instead of being proactive.
> 
> So I'm gonna be SAFE and advise everyone I know not to do business with them. Period.


Well. Gamble, your right and I agree. The best people to buy from are those who get it right the first time or can show they have sufficient experience before hand by communicating with the hobby and those who understand the conventions that are standard in the hobby.

The fact that these people are so new to the hobby and already have so many frogs just blows me away. When you keep that many animals, you begin to lose the connection you have with them. That connection is what drives me to keep my herps and it is a thoroughly enjoyable experience. If someone loses that connection, it drives me away.

I would not buy a frog from them. But with all that said, I think there it hope for them. Just not today.


----------



## FroggyKnight

frogface said:


> Ok, in fairness, that was for an adult. Here is the list:
> 
> 4-6 months: competitor 39.99, DFW 19.95
> 7-9 months: competitor 44.95, DFW 29.95
> 10-12 months: competitor 85.95, DFW 39.95
> 
> DFW, the prices you list as your sale prices are around what I would expect in prices for this particular frog from any seller.


ok, thanks for clearing that. I hadn't check their site for the vitts so I thought that was for a much younger frog. That still isn't the best price I've seen though


----------



## stevendart14

Holy cow man that's an impressive business plan there. I though about doing something similar but dart frogs is such a niche hobby I didn't take the risk. I like how you used the term safe I didn't think that the reason they wasn't as popular did have something to do with ignorance....duh!! To be considered a business is very strict business in the hobby world......Now some of the advertisement ploys were bold, for the random newbie retail paying customer they were great and I think would work untill they got into clubs,forums,etc...Sucks don't it... I wish I had a frog loving family to support me I would surely have a massive collection. All the luck to you, and I would love to talk business one day I'm more on the chameleon world then the darts these days but I envy your endeavor and any advice could help me in mine.


----------



## Pumilo

My skin crawls. Blatant lies and misinformation. I will never do business with DartFrogWarehouse.


----------



## JJuchems

They seem to have switched domains, now they are www.buydartfrogs.com

And have continued their blatant disregard to the hobbies practices with their own renaming.
Their "Expert Understanding"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Wow. They just don't get it. Incredibly disappointing. I generally don't want to see anyone fail, but with an expert understanding like this, let's hope they fall flat on their face.


----------



## Ed

One can only wonder how long it will take for a " SAFE harmless" dart frog to cause a lawsuit... 
See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ed said:


> One can only wonder how long it will take for a " SAFE harmless" dart frog to cause a lawsuit...
> See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


They're just asking for trouble. But hey they're so nice and they'll let us all use SAFE. Of course if you're selling to educated hobbyists (not their target market) you don't need nonsense like safe.

We as a hobby are going to have to be proactive about combating them.


----------



## Splash&Dash

ZookeeperDoug said:


> We as a hobby are going to have to be proactive about combating them.


I really don't understand this. If you don't like how they're running their business why isn't it enough to simply not use their services?


----------



## Scott

Because it is their stated ambition to move these new terms out in to the hobby via their sales channels as wholesale frog sellers.

s


Splash&Dash said:


> I really don't understand this. If you don't like how they're running their business why isn't it enough to simply not use their services?


----------



## randommind

Splash&Dash said:


> I really don't understand this. If you don't like how they're running their business why isn't it enough to simply not use their services?


Because by simply not using their services, nothing is being done to protect *OUR* hobby...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> I really don't understand this. If you don't like how they're running their business why isn't it enough to simply not use their services?


Why am I not surprised?

Because their business and their stated goals directly conflict with what is best for this hobby..


----------



## Gamble

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Wow. They just don't get it. Incredibly disappointing. I generally don't want to see anyone fail, but with an expert understanding like this, let's hope they fall flat on their face.


I agree 101%.
I've felt the same way since I posted my initial response.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> I really don't understand this. If you don't like how they're running their business why isn't it enough to simply not use their services?


Let me put it this way, I didn't like the way CJ ran his business, AIR Exotics. Should I have just just not used his services and left it at that?

We have a responsibility to protect this hobby we have worked so hard to build. I'll be damned if I'll let some layered up kid with a not so slick website full of all kinds of errors trample all over a hobby I love, all the while flaunting it in our faces. 

I'm really not all that worried though, for all their slick talk and legal rambling, they can't proofread or even orient many of their photos,


----------



## Splash&Dash

Scott said:


> Because it is their stated ambition to move these new terms out in to the hobby via their sales channels as wholesale frog sellers.
> 
> s


Maybe I am missing something here, but all that is required of people who disagree with the terms is simply not to use them.


----------



## Scott

Dillon seems like a nice enough kid (and I don't say that in a negative way) - but why the need to redefine *everything* that our hobby has fairly well defined?

I just don't see the need. Seems like it's more to differentiate themselves than to y'know, work with us.

The fact that everything is getting trademarked (gotta have different terms than the mundane's to trademark ... ) necessitates it.

I'd wish him much more success if he grew the business organically rather than trying to go from 1-100 mph in 6 seconds flat.

s


----------



## Gamble

JJuchems said:


> They seem to have switched domains, now they are www.buydartfrogs.com
> 
> And have continued their blatant disregard to the hobbies practices with their own renaming.
> Their "Expert Understanding"


Ok I just read the link ... All I can say is 
"Are you f*#king kidding me?!!?"

In honor of this idiotic crap they've wrote ... i am changing my signature.


----------



## Splash&Dash

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Why am I not surprised?


because you simply can't stand someone not towing your line and agreeing with you 100%? My question is more than reasonable, so either address it in a reasonable manner or simply ignore it. 



> Because their business and their stated goals directly conflict with what is best for this hobby..


See, I just don't get this need to be uber-vigilant policing a hobby. For me, simply not purchasing animals from them and educating others on proper naming (pretty much what goes on now) seems more than a reasonable response here


----------



## Scott

Again - it is their stated intention to push these bogus terms out to the public at large via their wholesale channels. Not on a one to one basis (as you're saying), but on a many to one basis. They're selling to many sellers, those sellers are selling to many buyers - all using these ridiculous new (unneeded) terms.

I see the need for what we're talking about here.

s


Splash&Dash said:


> ... See, I just don't get this need to be uber-vigilant policing a hobby. For me, simply not purchasing animals from them and educating others on proper naming (pretty much what goes on now) seems more than a reasonable response here


----------



## Splash&Dash

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Let me put it this way, I didn't like the way CJ ran his business, AIR Exotics. Should I have just just not used his services and left it at that?


Well, the problems CJ respresented to the hobby and what is presented here hardly seems on the same level. being that the issues with CJ involved a highly infectious disease that could have a very real environmental impact. 

here, we have some business practices overly geared towards commercial sales (basically the same as your basic pet shop) and issues with popular naming. So it's rather hard for me to put them on the same level.

But again, maybe I am missing something. Which, if that is the case, feel free to explain it in a reasonable manner. That way you're much more likely to get your point across


----------



## Splash&Dash

Gamble said:


> In honor of this idiotic crap they've wrote ... i am changing my signature.


ok, that is lol worthy


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> Maybe I am missing something here, but all that is required of people who disagree with the terms is simply not to use them.


No. Wrong. Because unsuspecting new recruits to the hobby may fall prey and be victimized by this mess. The last thing we need is an influx of ignorant new keepers who think their "Auroras" are the bizomb, showing up only to have reality set in. It's a recipe for disappointment for new hobbyists.

And this is only one of a plethora of other problems this warehouse of frogs potentially creates.

Nobody is worried about anyone within the hobby using these terms, we won't


----------



## Gamble

Splash&Dash said:


> because you simply can't stand someone not towing your line and agreeing with you 100%? My question is more than reasonable, so either address it in a reasonable manner or simply ignore it.
> See, I just don't get this need to be uber-vigilant policing a hobby. For me, simply not purchasing animals from them and educating others on proper naming (pretty much what goes on now) seems more than a reasonable response here



Maybe it's bc we have all put alot of blood, sweat & tears into this hobby to keep it "pure" & we don't want to see it turn into the snake & gecko market.

Do you get that???


----------



## Splash&Dash

Scott said:


> Dillon seems like a nice enough kid (and I don't say that in a negative way) - but why the need to redefine *everything* that our hobby has fairly well defined?
> 
> I just don't see the need. Seems like it's more to differentiate themselves than to y'know, work with us.
> 
> The fact that everything is getting trademarked (gotta have different terms than the mundane's to trademark ... ) necessitates it.
> 
> I'd wish him much more success if he grew the business organically rather than trying to go from 1-100 mph in 6 seconds flat.
> 
> s


The presentation and interest is definitely overly commercial, but that is business for you. Their target market also doesn't seem to be hobbyists but the causal keeper.

Which I don't necessarily view as a bad thing. Being that is what most pet stores do and here we know the frogs are captive bred and not imported legally or illegally.


----------



## Scott

How many of us started as Casual Keepers?

Quite a few, if not all, I'd say.

s


----------



## Scott

He's got you there Nick. I don't even know what the heck you were talking about. 

s


Splash&Dash said:


> ok, that is lol worthy





Gamble said:


> ... In honor of this idiotic crap they've wrote ... i am changing my signature.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Gamble said:


> Maybe it's bc we have all put alot of blood, sweat & tears into this hobby to keep it "pure" & we don't want to see it turn into the snake & gecko market.
> 
> Do you get that???


Hey, I get you guys have a lot of interest here, but the simple fact is it isn't yours to control or police. At the end of the day people are going to do what they want and sometimes people are going to disagree with your ideals.


----------



## Pumilo

When you make a statement like this, "the only source of SAFE™ dart frogs and tadpoles", I don't care what you CLAIM it means. You are deliberately trying to mislead the public. You are very carefully dancing around wordplay and legality (and good GOD, did you miss on the legality end of things!). You throw EVERYBODY under the bus when you do this. 
That statement is a knife in the back of the entire hobby.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Scott said:


> He's got you there Nick. I don't even know what the heck you were talking about.
> 
> s


look at his new sig, it's pretty funny.

PS this was in reference to the fecal one. That was the first tie I saw it and thought it was hilarious


----------



## Gamble

Splash&Dash said:


> But again, maybe I am missing something. Which, if that is the case, feel free to explain it in a reasonable manner. That way you're much more likely to get your point across


He doesn't need to get any point across. 
WE all get it ... you're in the minority of the ones who don't.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> because you simply can't stand someone not towing your line and agreeing with you 100%? My question is more than reasonable, so either address it in a reasonable manner or simply ignore it.


You're lucky Scott edited this.

What I'm not surprised at is that you're missing something. You continually seem to fail to grasp key important aspects of this hobby that are fundamental and easily grasped by others, so I am not at all surprised at your failure to understand this either.

It has nothin to do with wether or not You or anyone else agrees with me.



> See, I just don't get this need to be uber-vigilant policing a hobby. For me, simply not purchasing animals from them and educating others on proper naming (pretty much what goes on now) seems more than a reasonable response here



Then just do that, the rest of us will take up the slack.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Pumilo said:


> When you make a statement like this, "the only source of SAFE™ dart frogs and tadpoles", I don't care what you CLAIM it means. You are deliberately trying to mislead the public. You are very carefully dancing around wordplay and legality (and good GOD, did you miss on the legality end of things!). You throw EVERYBODY under the bus when you do this.
> That statement is a knife in the back of the entire hobby.


The guy claims he works professionally in trademark law and I certainly don't know enough about the topic to disagree with his arguments. But from a marketing perspective, it seems like a really ingenious idea. 

though if you are financially involved in producing frogs for any level of commercial sales, I can understand why people would not like it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> Hey, I get you guys have a lot of interest here, but the simple fact is it isn't yours to control or police. At the end of the day people are going to do what they want and sometimes people are going to disagree with your ideals.


That's absolutely the wrong way to look at it. It is ours, this is OUR hobby, and we have a responsibility to police it.

You are right though. At the end of the day, people will do whatever they want. The best we can do is let everyone else know that their practices are widely regarded as unacceptable. This is all I was suggesting.


----------



## Splash&Dash

ZookeeperDoug said:


> You're lucky Scott edited this.


I honestly see no reason why scott even felt the need to edit it. if you can't be mature in how you respond to a reasonable question then there is really no reason for you to respond, is there?

Sorry if you can't deal with the fact that not everyone agrees with you, but that is how life works sometimes



> What I'm not surprised at is that you're missing something. You continually seem to fail to grasp key important aspects of this hobby that are fundamental and easily grasped by others, so I am not at all surprised at your failure to understand this either.
> 
> It has nothin to do with wether or not You or anyone else agrees with me.


Could have fooled me






> Then just do that, the rest of us will take up the slack.


cool ...


----------



## Splash&Dash

ZookeeperDoug said:


> That's absolutely the wrong way to look at it. It is ours, this is OUR hobby, and we have a responsibility to police it.


No, it really isn't



> You are right though. At the end of the day, people will do whatever they want. The best we can do is let everyone else know that their practices are widely regarded as unacceptable. This is all I was suggesting.



Cool, then we are on the same page and your flair up was completely unnecessary. It's just your original post, combined with previous statements, made it sound like you were going to go out of your way to try and shut them down. For me, that just seemed excessive. But since that isn't the case, then it was a simple misunderstanding


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> I honestly see no reason why scott even felt the need to edit it. if you can't be mature in how you respond to a reasonable question then there is really no reason for you to respond, is there?


Oh the irony. Insulting me was a mature response? You sank to the lowest, resorting to use of a playground insult. Quite mature.



> Sorry if you can't deal with the fact that not everyone agrees with you, but that is how life works sometimes


You can keep harping on that if it makes you feel better. Still doesn't change the fact.



> Could have fooled me


It's not all that hard to do.


----------



## Splash&Dash

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Oh the irony. Insulting me was a mature response? You sank to the lowest, resorting to use of a playground insult. Quite mature.


What I responded to wasn't a reasonable question


----------



## Splash&Dash

Gamble said:


> He doesn't need to get any point across.
> WE all get it ... you're in the minority of the ones who don't.


lots of people come to similar conclusions that are wrong all the time. Numbers really have nothing to do with validity

Honestly, you guys shouldn't be getting upset over me asking a simple question


----------



## Scott

Both of you.

Stop.

Stick to the topic. The playground is in the long past.

Back on topic - or don't post at all.

s


Splash&Dash said:


> What I responded to wasn't a reasonable question


----------



## Scott

You asked a simple question.

You don't seem to agree with the multitude of responses you're getting to your simple question.

We are all in agreement - you still do not seem to see that.

As a Wholesaler - this person/business has the possibility of exposing their ideas much more widely than any ONE of use. That's a big point.

s


Splash&Dash said:


> lots of people come to similar conclusions that are wrong all the time. Numbers really have nothing to do with validity
> 
> Honestly, you guys shouldn't be getting upset over me asking a simple question


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> What I responded to wasn't a reasonable question


Sure it was.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Scott said:


> You asked a simple question.
> 
> You don't seem to agree with the multitude of responses you're getting to your simple question.
> 
> We are all in agreement - you still do not seem to see that.
> 
> As a Wholesaler - this person/business has the possibility of exposing their ideas much more widely than any ONE of use. That's a big point.
> 
> s


But like I said, it's related to a whole different subset of keepers. Most who will never be involved in the hobby beyond having some cool frogs in their living room




> You don't seem to agree with the multitude of responses you're getting to your simple question.
> 
> We are all in agreement - you still do not seem to see that.


Yeah, that happens sometimes. Not sure why anyone would get upset over it


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Splash&Dash said:


> Cool, then we are on the same page. It's just your original post, combined with previous statements, made it sound like you were going to go out of your way to try and shut them down. For me, that just seemed excessive. But since that isn't the case, then it was a simple misunderstanding


:edited out you inflammatory off topic part:

While I have no illusion of being able to shut them down, I will make a concerted effort to let know others know that what they're doing is not the right way to go about doing things. Hopefully that will either shut them down or get them to change their tune. I think they have at least realized that these kinds of ideas are at least not welcome here and I have little doubt they'll respond to any more of our concerns,


----------



## carola1155

Ya know... For all their talk of legal matters in this thread and on their site I find things like this to be incredibly interesting/humorous:



> As the only commercial seller of captive bred dart frogs able to ship throughout the entire year, all fifty-two (52) weeks, no doubt we offer the safest way to ship your frogs, and a valuable service to our customers who don't plan their frog purchases by the season or the weather.


I would LOVE to see the proof they have to back up that claim... I kinda wish I operated commercially so I could take them down for false advertisement. Plenty of companies are able to ship throughout the entire year... That's just a straight BS claim.

Also, can we discuss how grammar can change the meaning of these statements?


> We are the only seller of captive bred, SAFE brand, completely harmless dart frogs


They are the only seller of SAFE branded frogs. This statement would be a lot father away from more false advertisement if it said something more like "we are the only seller of SAFE Brand frogs, which are captive bred and completely harmless" (though there is still the bit about being "completely harmless" that Ed already covered)

As for the argument about why we should care about all this? Because we are the part of the hobby that is here when people have problems/need help. By adding all these stupid names and trying to establish all this extra crap this company ends up making things more confusing for the consumer. I can almost guarantee that the first time someone has a question or is confused about this stuff they will use the fancy google machine and find this site. That means we have to spend more time mopping up the messes that they create by misleading/confusing new people in the hobby. It's not a good road to go down.


----------



## Splash&Dash

carola1155 said:


> As for the argument about why we should care about all this? Because we are the part of the hobby that is here when people have problems/need help. By adding all these stupid names and trying to establish all this extra crap this company ends up making things more confusing for the consumer.


My remark wasn't about "caring", but what as I took as an overly vigilant approach to something that can simply be dealt with through more traditional channels.



> I can almost guarantee that the first time someone has a question or is confused about this stuff they will use the fancy google machine and find this site.


Which would seem to offer the perfect opportunity to deal with the issue


----------



## ecichlid

Gamble said:


> Maybe it's bc we have all put alot of blood, sweat & tears into this hobby to keep it "pure" & we don't want to see it turn into the snake & gecko market.
> 
> Do you get that???


 I think the nature of the animals themselves is what made the gecko and snake market different from PDF's. To infer otherwise means you are smarter than them or have worked harder than them. Since I enjoy both PDF's and line bred R. cilliatus, I speak from experience and I don't think your premise is correct. That being said, I do respect the time and effort you put in to make frog keeping more rewarding to others. We need more of that.

It's not often that unsolicited advice is actually used by another person. I also don't think an argument that most would deem as hostile will result in the other side side waking up tomorrow and saying "You know what, you're right!"

It's clear to me that DFW does not value popular opinion unless it shows itself in a market study. They would be best hiring a PR firm and have them take a look at this topic. I'm sure their PR rep would be aghast and would tell them that step #1 is to stop responding here immediately.


----------



## carola1155

Splash&Dash said:


> Which would seem to offer the perfect opportunity to deal with the issue


Haha go ahead and search the word "mixing" and tell me how well people handle the same questions being asked over and over again.

But seriously, you missed my point... I'm just saying that if they don't go confusing the consumer in the first place it makes for a lot less work for all of us. Doesn't that seem like the better option? Your approach is akin to treating the symptoms and not the disease...


----------



## JJuchems

Splash&Dash said:


> though if you are financially involved in producing frogs for any level of commercial sales, I can understand why people would not like it.


The issue goes well beyond commercial interests, it speak to individual ownership/hobbyist. The issues were stated in this thread, through email/messaging services by members, and yet have not been answer or addressed. 

While many of us may have started as "casual keepers," the herpetocultural hobby has a direct correlation to breeding of specimens. Most people dive into keeping and it lends to wanting to try and reproduce a specimen. Nothing can devastate that owner, let alone a small business than purchasing these frogs based on misguided terms. Their terms for morphs can misguide sellers/dealers that their frogs are new morphs and give that impression to fellow hobbyist or the newbie wanting a first frog. Established names and sources help keeps identify bloodline, import, and type of frog for compatible mates for either breeding or simply designing a multi-specimen display. 

Further more some of the items listed on their site are irresponsible and again misleading. To state frogs are "safe" is just not true. Humans are still susceptible zoonotic diseases and the natural biological functions of the animals still exists. While it is often suppressed in captivity by diet, that can be modified along with the fact that it has been suggested that species can produce in captivity. Another case of misleading is the claim to be able to ship all 52 weeks of the year. I would never ship the week of and really the week before Christmas. My next day by 3pm shipping of a Snapfish book took 72 hours instead of 24hrs the week of Christmas, would I risk a living creature? No. Would Dart Frog Warehouse? Not sure, their claim is all 52 weeks. How about weeks of freezing weather in the Midwest? 

The above claims are not good for the hobby or industry. USArk, local herpetological/herpetculturlist group, and others are work to keep the hobby available to all and not hindered by the actions of a few in legislation. Shipyourreptiles.com and others have worked to continue partnerships with FedEx and UPS to keep live animals shipments available. The irresponsibility of a few can effect us all.


----------



## Splash&Dash

carola1155 said:


> Haha go ahead and search the word "mixing" and tell me how well people handle the same questions being asked over and over again.
> 
> But seriously, you missed my point... I'm just saying that if they don't go confusing the consumer in the first place it makes for a lot less work for all of us.
> 
> 
> 
> well, no one is forced to address the questions people ask here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't that seem like the better option? Your approach is akin to treating the symptoms and not the disease...
> 
> 
> 
> I just see it as more an overly emotional response to a hang nail. just not a big deal in the long run and one that will eventually deal with itself.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## carola1155

Splash&Dash said:


> well, no one is forced to address the questions people ask here


I've been through this debate a million times and (no offense) I've been around this forum a lot longer to see how it plays out. The fact is that if nobody with the appropriate understanding of the issue answers it... Someone else will. That is how bad advice/information gets spread... That is not good for the hobby.


----------



## Splash&Dash

carola1155 said:


> I've been through this debate a million times and (no offense) I've been around this forum a lot longer to see how it plays out. The fact is that if nobody with the appropriate understanding of the issue answers it... Someone else will. That is how bad advice/information gets spread... That is not good for the hobby.


Well, I don't know what to tell you, you are free to ignore such questions or answer them. It's really up to you. For me, most of those questions seem to turn into complex debates and issues because how many approach them


----------



## carola1155

Ok so... If we can avoid unnecessary complex debates... Why not try?

(This is starting to become a cyclical argument)


----------



## hydrophyte

This thread is just nuts.


----------



## Splash&Dash

carola1155 said:


> Ok so... If we can avoid unnecessary complex debates... Why not try?
> 
> (This is starting to become a cyclical argument)


1) well, as I said, they seem to become needlessly complicated due to how people respond to them 

2) you certainly could go out of your way to shut them down. But that just strikes me as a little extreme. I rather just correct people as they show up here


----------



## Dendro Dave

I find the "SAFE" thing misleading, or even incorrect if Ed is right that these could still have peptides that cause symptoms and I have no reason to doubt Ed there. They also don't specifically mention that these frogs are any more disease free then others, and we all know amphibians can carry salmonella or other things that could effect people. Smoke up the butt of potential hobbyists.

There fancy names that will bring even more confusion into our hobby, more smoke up people's butts.

The phenotype mumbo jumbo... More smoke Up our butts.

That is a lot of smokey buttholes!!!!

I get that they are trying to market these to a different clientele, and I'm all for educating the public on the potential toxicity or lack there of with CB darts, but they've gone about it a fairly distasteful way and seem unwilling to listen or work with the community, which makes me think its all about the benjamins here, so that also leaves a foul taste. I think the best advice we can offer anyone dealing with them is this...


----------



## frogface

What happens when people show up wanting mates for their dart frogs with made up names? "WTB female Sunshine." "Can I mix my Sunshine with my Moonbeam?" Ok those are names I made up (I hope) but how are lines and morphs kept separate when they have pretend names?

I look at this family business and I am just floored. My father is the person in my life who taught me to be honest and fair. I try to picture him starting a business with me where we are dishonest and intentionally misleading, and it really just blows me away. 

An example of an honest father/son business would be Pumilo and frogboy. Can you imagine Pumilo teaching frogboy how to trick people in order to make more money? No, he worked with frogboy to make sure frogboy followed through on his transactions in an honest forthright manner. And, of course, frogboy did because he learned it from his father. See how that all works?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

The bottom line when dealing in with these guys is the old saying:

" An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure"

The responsible hobbyists amongst us would rather prevent a bunch of problems rather than deal with them piecemeal as they occur and come to our attention. It makes much more sense to prevent new hobbyists and non hobbyists from falling for that traps and pitfalls presented by this dealer. Better to prevent a problem than have to correct the problem after the fact.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Wow, I bet they`re Walkin on Sunshine happy that they started this thread.

Hey, at least it`s not spam.

John


----------



## phender

In their "Expert Understanding" section, are they saying that they are going to breed their frogs based on phenotype rather than the line/morph of the frog looking for the dominant phenotype? So they are trying to create lines of frogs that have no phenotypic variability? Then they rationalize this by saying that Lotters says that all the names have no meaning anyway? 
Then they want to work with conservation groups to reintroduce their frogs into the wild?

BEFORE YOU RESPOND to this, I am not saying that is what they said. I am asking you to read that section of their website and let me know what your take is on the "dominant phenotype/Lotters says all names are useless" mumbo jumbo.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

What I got out of it is they are breeding by what they consider the most valuable phenotype, regardless of lineage.


----------



## markpulawski

phender said:


> In their "Expert Understanding" section, are they saying that they are going to breed their frogs based on phenotype rather than the line/morph of the frog looking for the dominant phenotype? So they are trying to create lines of frogs that have no phenotypic variability? Then they rationalize this by saying that Lotters says that all the names have no meaning anyway?
> Then they want to work with conservation groups to reintroduce their frogs into the wild?
> 
> BEFORE YOU RESPOND to this, I am not saying that is what they said. I am asking you to read that section of their website and let me know what your take is on the "dominant phenotype/Lotters says all names are useless" mumbo jumbo.


How I interpret what they said, morph names don't mean anything to them and they are going to breed what they see fit based on appearance. They are going to create a bunch of mixed morph animals and put their own name on them....all in name of research, TOTAL BS!!!. A company like this if successful at the retail level will create problems that will need to be dealt with for a long time. Wow these guys no doubt will damage our hobby tremendously if even partially successful, this could be a nightmare for any species they are dealing with.


----------



## Pumilo

Splash&Dash said:


> The guy claims he works professionally in trademark law and I certainly don't know enough about the topic to disagree with his arguments. But from a marketing perspective, it seems like a really ingenious idea.
> 
> though if you are financially involved in producing frogs for any level of commercial sales, I can understand why people would not like it.


Well, actually I am NOT involved in the commercial sales of frogs, and I obviously do not like it. Whatever that statement was supposed to prove has fallen flat. 
I have always been more of a hobbyist than a breeder. My tank sizes are always WELL beyond "minimum breeder size". A commercial breeder wouldn't waste that much space. A commercial breeder wouldn't have expensive, rare plants in every tank, with the expensive lighting it takes to grow them. 
I think the final proof is that recently, when times have gotten tough and I am reconsidering how I will continue to support my family, the very first decision I've made is to clear out almost all of my collection, so my time can be free to pursue a career.

Thank you though, for your attempt to discredit me and devalue my interest in this backstabbing pile of....stuff. I am a frog hobbyist. I started out as a frog hobbyist, and I am a frog hobbyist today. I've NEVER supported my family with frogs, only my hobby, and this hobbyist is angry at the middle finger that this business has given to the ENTIRE hobby, NOT just the business end.


----------



## Pumilo

markpulawski said:


> How I interpret what they said, morph names don't mean anything to them and they are going to breed what they see fit based on appearance. They are going to create a bunch of mixed morph animals and put their own name on them....all in name of research, TOTAL BS!!!. A company like this if successful at the retail level will create problems that will need to be dealt with for a long time. Wow these guys no doubt will damage our hobby tremendously if even partially successful, this could be a nightmare for any species they are dealing with.


That, right there, is why this is a middle finger to the entire hobby. Thanks Mark.


----------



## Splash&Dash

frogface said:


> What happens when people show up wanting mates for their dart frogs with made up names? "WTB female Sunshine." "Can I mix my Sunshine with my Moonbeam?" Ok those are names I made up (I hope) but how are lines and morphs kept separate when they have pretend names?


Maybe I am misunderstanding what I read (which is totally possible) but aren't they just renaming existing morphs?


----------



## markpulawski

Trust me I hate it when people become the frog police but every now and then not only is it warranted it is demanded of anyone that cares at all about this hobby. If these people do what they say they are going to do it may not be fixable.


----------



## Splash&Dash

markpulawski said:


> How I interpret what they said, morph names don't mean anything to them and they are going to breed what they see fit based on appearance. They are going to create a bunch of mixed morph animals and put their own name on them....all in name of research, TOTAL BS!!!. A company like this if successful at the retail level will create problems that will need to be dealt with for a long time. Wow these guys no doubt will damage our hobby tremendously if even partially successful, this could be a nightmare for any species they are dealing with.


So it's basically the "pi-bald" snake approach as opposed to a simple renaming scheme?


----------



## markpulawski

Splash&Dash said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding what I read (which is totally possible) but aren't they just renaming existing morphs?


No they are mixing based on looks and desirable traits and then renaming them, mixed morphs of who knows what.


----------



## Splash&Dash

markpulawski said:


> Trust me I hate it when people become the frog police but every now and then not only is it warranted it is demanded of anyone that cares at all about this hobby. If these people do what they say they are going to do it may not be fixable.


I fully understand the concern about people cross breeding and line breeding. I thought the issue was limited to a simple renaming scheme, as that was how it was first explained.


----------



## Pumilo

Splash&Dash said:


> Maybe I am misunderstanding what I read (which is totally possible) but aren't they just renaming existing morphs?



No, they are not. They are admitting that they will breed based on looks. This is most likely going to entail line breeding, and inbreeding.
They are making up fictitious morph names, too, and that has it's own problems.
If I were to purchase a "Sunshine" morph, can you please explain how I will ever find a mate for it that will not inbreed the line even further? Keep in mind that suitable mates are actually EVERYWHERE, but I don't know that, because I bought an imaginary, made up morph name that nobody has ever heard of.


----------



## Splash&Dash

markpulawski said:


> No they are mixing based on looks and desirable traits and then renaming them, mixed morphs of who knows what.


Yes, see, I can understand how that will have a long term and irreparable impact on the hobby and fully support a more pro-active approach in dealing with. Funny thing is, I would have agreed to the same thing yesterday, if all the pointless BS was simply kept in check and someone explained that. Instead, as usual with some on this board, the gut reaction is to simply attack.

And well, we can see how productive that is


----------



## Splash&Dash

Pumilo said:


> "Sunshine" morph, can you please explain how I will ever find a mate for it that will not inbreed the line even further? Keep in mind that suitable mates are actually EVERYWHERE, but I don't know that, because I bought an imaginary, made up morph name that nobody has ever heard of.


well, if we were talking about a simple leuc with a made up name attached to it you would just breed it with a leuc. If you you are talking about something line bred or even cross bred you certainly run into issues with long term genetic management (not that certain popular practices already seemingly lend themselves to this)


----------



## JJuchems

phender said:


> In their "Expert Understanding" section, are they saying that they are going to breed their frogs based on phenotype rather than the line/morph of the frog looking for the dominant phenotype? So they are trying to create lines of frogs that have no phenotypic variability? Then they rationalize this by saying that Lotters says that all the names have no meaning anyway?
> Then they want to work with conservation groups to reintroduce their frogs into the wild?
> 
> BEFORE YOU RESPOND to this, I am not saying that is what they said. I am asking you to read that section of their website and let me know what your take is on the "dominant phenotype/Lotters says all names are useless" mumbo jumbo.


This is why I posted it the link, it gets lost in all the issues with their system.


JJuchems said:


> They seem to have switched domains, now they are www.buydartfrogs.com
> 
> And have continued their blatant disregard to the hobbies practices with their own renaming.
> Their "Expert Understanding"



I read it as they are going to breed their frogs as they see fit for "COLOR." A species is a species and morph names are non-sense. So breeding out-crossing is acceptable to them and sounds like inbreeding and line breeding. I take this from own words: 



> "We do not limit ourselves to "fine spot" or "banded", "high yellow" or "high black", etc."



For the record, I have no issue with people making a living breeding animals. I have several friends who do this, but I have a problem with irresponsible and self serving motives. Suggestions have been provided to keep them in norm of the hobby. Instead they wish to throw up their middle finger at the hobby and do it their way.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Pumilo said:


> Well, actually I am NOT involved in the commercial sales of frogs, and I obviously do not like it. Whatever that statement was supposed to prove has fallen flat.


I thought you were and it wasn't meant as something negative. 




> I have always been more of a hobbyist than a breeder. My tank sizes are always WELL beyond "minimum breeder size". A commercial breeder wouldn't waste that much space. A commercial breeder wouldn't have expensive, rare plants in every tank, with the expensive lighting it takes to grow them.


Well, I wasn't really using "commercial in a negative sense, simply as someone who sales frogs, as it would imply what you're selling, at any level, was unsafe.




> I think the final proof is that recently, when times have gotten tough and I am reconsidering how I will continue to support my family, the very first decision I've made is to clear out almost all of my collection, so my time can be free to pursue a career.


that is unfortunate and I hope things improve for you



> Thank you though, for your attempt to discredit me and devalue my interest in this backstabbing pile of....stuff.


I think you're honestly reading way too much into my post. But if that is how you want to take it, that's how you're going to take it.



> I am a frog hobbyist. I started out as a frog hobbyist, and I am a frog hobbyist today. I've NEVER supported my family with frogs, only my hobby, and this hobbyist is angry at the middle finger that this business has given to the ENTIRE hobby, NOT just the business end.


Well, if you think they are doing something negative to the hobby your best approach is making your case when someone disagrees. Getting angry at people for simply holding a different opinion on a matter, while they make an honest attempt to understand your point of view doesn't really further your interests


----------



## Pumilo

Splash&Dash said:


> well, if we were talking about a simple leuc with a made up name attached to it you would just breed it with a leuc. If you you are talking about something line bred or even cross bred you certainly run into issues with long term genetic management (not that certain popular practices already seemingly lend themselves to this)


What Leuc do you breed it with? Green Foot Luec? (Is there a blue foot morph, too?) Do you breed it to nominant Luec? Do you breed it to Banded Luecs? Remember, patterns can and do vary. A single luec of any morph may look like a different morph.
Do you see that you have grabbed what you think might be the simplest example, and it is already confusing? 
What is it? What did they sell you? Why did they deliberately confuse you? 
Wait a minute! I have an idea. Could it possibly be to LOCK YOU IN? Please, think about this before simply replying. This IS an advertising ploy to make you BELIEVE that they are the ONLY place to buy frogs. Then, if that is not enough, they change the names around to try to lock you in.
Why does ANY business feel the need to LOCK YOU IN? Because they know from day one that deception is the only way they can get your business. They know they can not get your business legitimately, and they know they cannot otherwise keep your business.


----------



## Splash&Dash

Pumilo said:


> What Leuc do you breed it with? Green Foot Luec? (Is there a blue foot morph, too?) Do you breed it to nominant Luec? Do you breed it to Banded Luecs? Remember, patterns can and do vary. A single luec of any morph may look like a different morph.


whatever group they brand with that name. 





> Do you see that you have grabbed what you think might be the simplest example, and it is already confusing?


Not really, because those are all existing named groups that would have simply be re-branded from my original understanding. 

Yes, annoying, but more of an inconvenience than anything. But this is all academic at this point because that is not what their actions are limited to. 




> This IS an advertising ploy to make you BELIEVE that they are the ONLY place to buy frogs.


Yes, I understand that and the reason I wouldn't personally buy frogs from them, as I said when this thread was originally started. But it's hardly something that would make me feel that I needed to go out of my way to undermine the company over




> Why does ANY business feel the need to LOCK YOU IN?


because they're a business and want to make money? Honestly, while nothing I want to personally support, it's not something I would get too worked up over, as well.


----------



## Scott

Hey Splash - or Mr. Dash ...

What frogs do you keep?

How long have you been in our Hobby?

s


----------



## LoganR

frogface said:


> What happens when people show up wanting mates for their dart frogs with made up names? "WTB female Sunshine." "Can I mix my Sunshine with my Moonbeam?" Ok those are names I made up (I hope) but how are lines and morphs kept separate when they have pretend names?
> 
> I think that is the whole point of this - the only place they will find mates is from the original source.
> 
> I just read the whole "Expert Understanding" part of the website, and it makes my stomach churn. They base all their understanding on ONE book out of the huge number of reliable texts and scientific publications related to dart frogs. Yes, some of the names in the hobby are simplistic. Yes, lots of frogs were sold in the early days with even simpler names attached to them. However, today, the hobby makes an attempt to relate most color morphs to location, and there is biological meaning behind that. Their whole bit about _Azureus _once being separated as a separate species is short sighted in the least. Taxonomy of living organisms frequently changes as we gain better understanding of their relationships to each other. I haven't read the Lotters text, but I wonder if it even addresses the concept of insipient species resulting from population isolation.
> 
> In the beginning of this thread, I thought, "Hey, they're a fledging company, looking for a market" and I wasn't overly disturbed by what they had to say. Now, I couldn't even consider patronizing them. I'm disgusted by their tactics and their slap in the face "Expert Understanding."


----------



## Splash&Dash

Scott said:


> Hey Splash - or Mr. Dash ...
> 
> What frogs do you keep?
> 
> How long have you been in our Hobby?
> 
> s


I currently have a small group of leucs and a small group of costa rican auratus. I would say I got the leucs around 2006-07


----------



## Scott

I should have KNOWN.

This is someone who had already been banned.

They're gone again.

Follow my instincts more quickly next time.

Say Goodbye to "Brotherly Monkey" - he NEVER did have frogs as far as I know.

s


Scott said:


> Hey Splash - or Mr. Dash ...
> 
> What frogs do you keep?
> 
> How long have you been in our Hobby?
> 
> s


----------



## carola1155

Splash&Dash said:


> Yes, see, I can understand how that will have a long term and irreparable impact on the hobby and fully support a more pro-active approach in dealing with. Funny thing is, I would have agreed to the same thing yesterday, if all the pointless BS was simply kept in check and someone explained that. Instead, as usual with some on this board, the gut reaction is to simply attack.
> 
> And well, we can see how productive that is


How is all the other stuff pointless BS? Hashing through all of that is what eventually got us around to explaining this in a manner that you understood. How are we supposed to recognize up front how every single person is interpreting certain statements? 

Some people knew what the issue was up front and attacked the company for it... when they responded in the manner that they did... other people attacked them for the many other things they were doing wrong. If you are trying to win an argument and make someone change their ways don't you continue to try to compile more evidence and instances of wrongdoing to make your case look even better? That's what happened here. When people tried to voice their concerns they were met with resistance... What other options did they have? Dragging this company through the mud and hoping that hurting their bottom line was really the only option that was left after the blatant disregard for the communities concerns.


----------



## carola1155

Scott said:


> I should have KNOWN.
> 
> This is someone who had already been banned.
> 
> They're gone again.
> 
> Follow my instincts more quickly next time.
> 
> Say Goodbye to "Brotherly Monkey" - he NEVER did have frogs as far as I know.
> 
> s


Damn... kinda bummed that we got trolled by THAT clown again. Good catch Scott.


----------



## Scott

Let's please quit answering Splash&Dash - he was just a troll all along - just like Brotherly Monkey.

I think there is some good information here - but I'm likely going to clean up much of this so Mr. Dash can't get off (which he obviously does ... ) on his contrary attitude.

s


----------



## Dendro Dave

markpulawski said:


> How I interpret what they said, morph names don't mean anything to them and they are going to breed what they see fit based on appearance. They are going to create a bunch of mixed morph animals and put their own name on them....all in name of research, TOTAL BS!!!. A company like this if successful at the retail level will create problems that will need to be dealt with for a long time. Wow these guys no doubt will damage our hobby tremendously if even partially successful, this could be a nightmare for any species they are dealing with.





Pumilo said:


> That, right there, is why this is a middle finger to the entire hobby. Thanks Mark.



That is my fear too. The whole phenotype butt smoke sounds like the first stage in a massive designer dart frog campaign.


----------



## frogface

I understand that SAFE is a pretend word, but, just in case someone mistakes it for the actual word -safe- would some of our science folks list some of the zoonotics that these SAFE dart frogs might be carrying?


----------



## Scott

We all agree. The person who disagreed is gone.

Let's just leave this thread alone for now please.

s


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Wow, this thread is amazing.
I`m just a little guy around here, never been a big time breeder, never said I was. I offer my little tid bits of info when I can.
Thank you all for your passion and caring in this off the wall hobby of ours. I can`t do anywhere near what you maniacs do, but I`m glad as hell that you do it.

*Edit* sorry Scott I posted this after reading your last reply.

John


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Scott said:


> We all agree. The person who disagreed is gone.
> 
> Let's just leave this thread alone for now please.
> 
> s


And now seems like a good time for this 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/thunderdome/77147-coffees-closers-scott.html


----------



## Dendro Dave

frogface said:


> I understand that SAFE is a pretend word, but, just in case someone mistakes it for the actual word -safe- would some of our science folks list some of the zoonotics that these SAFE dart frogs might be carrying?


I just found this with a quick search...

http://www.virginia.edu/vpr/iacuc/docs/Frog.pdf

and this...
http://www.ehs.colostate.edu/WOHSP/PDF/Frogs.pdf

and this...
http://www.absa.org/pdf/ZoonoticFactSheet.pdf


----------



## frogface

Thanks Dave! I spent 4 days in the hospital (and was sick for months) after contracting tularemia from a dart frog.


----------



## hydrophyte

I did not know you could get tularemia from frogs. 

I had a professor in college who went hunting a lot and he got tularemia from a rabbit he shot and he was messed up for months.


----------



## frogface

hydrophyte said:


> I did not know you could get tularemia from frogs.
> 
> I had a professor in college who went hunting a lot and he got tularemia from a rabbit he shot and he was messed up for months.


It's not a tropical disease so the dart frog wasn't the original carrier. She had to have picked it up from contact with a North American animal. I'm guessing a reused QT tub that was not cleaned out between animals (the original owner, not me). However, they can catch it, carry it and transmit it like any other frogs. So, I'm keeping it on the list 

eta: Original owner is known for poaching local wildlife...


----------



## CJ PELCH

frogface said:


> Thanks Dave! I spent 4 days in the hospital (and was sick for months) after contracting tularemia from a dart frog.


can you elaborate in a private message please?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogface said:


> It's not a tropical disease so the dart frog wasn't the original carrier. She had to have picked it up from contact with a North American animal. I'm guessing a reused QT tub that was not cleaned out between animals (the original owner, not me). However, they can catch it, carry it and transmit it like any other frogs. So, I'm keeping it on the list
> 
> eta: Original owner is known for poaching local wildlife...


I think I know the CONNECTION?


----------



## frogparty

LOL!!! Subtlety at its finest?


----------



## stevendart14

Not to play devils advocate I know to well forum flaming. Could they break the general. Public? I always had aspirations of our hobby getting bigger. Though the risk of hybrids are high it's not like they aren't already out there. But luckily we are fortunate enough to have a lot of different subspecies and locales. So many infact to collect them all I think would be nearly impossible. If the new kids want new morphs, steer them to push for legislation of new European blood. In the leachie giant gecko world soon they will be forced to mix locals to keep healthy breeding stock. 



....I skimmed after a few pages I don't agree with everything they are doing even from a business aspect I grew up in the hobby so I understand the morality factor


----------



## Heatheranne

Corey, send me a pm.


----------



## markpulawski

I am very disappointed that Dillon or his father have yet to come on here and address what we all fear, that they are going to breed different locality's Tinc's and other species together as they see fit to drive revenue for their business. Dillon's father said he invested his son's first year college $$ in this venture, I would submit he would have been better off sending his son to college so that he could actually learn principle's of business rather than what looks to be a severe attempt to damage our hobby. This guy has taken one book by one guy and made it his bible and with views contrary to 99% of this hobby I would hope beyond hope that no one would patronize this business until all of the facts come out.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

You can no longer PM Dillion. That should tell you something


----------



## pafrogguy

They also still have the designer names on leucs and a couple others I have seen. No change at all in their lovely (sarcasm) business model that I can see.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Maybe it's time to start a facebook page about who NOT to buy from.


----------



## oldlady25715

I'd have taken the Corvette and first year of college over a massive back-breaking frog operation any day. The frogs they are breeding can be bred by practically anyone at anytime. The first year of college is a once in lifetime occurrence and special time in a kid's life.

I think Dillon's dad missed the mark on proper parental guidance on this one and instead got distracted by the details of how to apply his trade to this hobby.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

oldlady25715 said:


> I'd have taken the Corvette and first year of college over a massive back-breaking frog operation any day. The frogs they are breeding can be bred by practically anyone at anytime. The first year of college is a once in lifetime occurrence and special time in a kid's life.
> 
> I think Dillon's dad missed the mark on proper parental guidance on this one and instead got distracted by the details of how to apply his trade to this hobby.


I am glad I'm not alone in this sentiment. When Dillion's dad bragged about his sons scores, I thought, wow, what a wasted opportunity. You could easily get into some very good schools with those and the money it looks like they have. But who am I to tells people what to do with their lives. I also know I had very high test scores, but choose to become a marine biologist. I followed my passion and perhaps not my potential, but I don't regret it for a second.

And I guess that what bothers me the most about this, if this business really is his passion, go for it. Just loose the designer names and for Gods sake, get your dad out of it.


----------



## frogparty

losing the designer names an Q designation will go a long way I think. No need to reinvent the wheel, or make up BS phenotype designations ( or create them) 

If they want to bastardize the hobby and turn it into the leopard gecko/ ball python hobby then I for one will do what I can to steer people away from them as a source for animals


----------



## edwardsatc

frogparty said:


> If they want to bastardize the hobby and turn it into the leopard gecko/ ball python hobby then I for one will do what I can to steer people away from them as a source for animals


I think they just made it abundantly clear (on DD)that this is what they are doing.


----------



## frogface

> And I guess that what bothers me the most about this, if this business really is his passion, go for it. Just loose the designer names and for Gods sake, get your dad out of it.


I second this ^


----------



## frogparty

shows what happens when I leave a forum and miss out on the juicy juicy gossip.


----------



## edwardsatc

frogparty said:


> shows what happens when I leave a forum and miss out on the juicy juicy gossip.


I wish it was gossip. Unfortunately, it came straight from the horses mouth (or keypad).


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> I think they just made it abundantly clear (on DD)that this is what they are doing.


Where on DD?


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Where on DD?


"Hybridizing”,Cross-breeding and Mixing Dart Frogs


----------



## frogface

edwardsatc said:


> I think they just made it abundantly clear (on DD)that this is what they are doing.


Seriously? Did they think it would be better received over there?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogface said:


> Seriously? Did they think it would be better received over there?


Just sifted through all Rick's bullcrap over there. The man is absolutely clueless. Their intentions are obvious.


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Just sifted through all Rick's bullcrap over there. The man is absolutely clueless. Their intentions are obvious.


That's an understatement. I need to quit responding to him or my head may explode.


----------



## edwardsatc

What really bothers me now is that it is quite obvious, from his comments about their mate choice experiments, that they are already crossing morphs. So, there is distinct possibility that there are already offspring and that they will be made available.

We could be too late to stop this train wreck.


----------



## frogface

edwardsatc said:


> What really bothers me now is that it is quite obvious, from his comments about their mate choice experiments, that they are already crossing morphs. So, there is distinct possibility that there are already offspring and that they will be made available.
> 
> We could be too late to stop this train wreck.


Yes and I think that's why they are not backing down from this asinine mixed-frog business; they have already created their mixed-frog stock.

Sad thing is that the son was a member here. He didn't post much but he could have learned to be a great frog breeder if he has that drive. I can't help but think he's being led in the wrong direction by someone who does not think he makes mistakes.


----------



## markpulawski

I am floored they feel it is OK to mix different localities of species together, how they came to that misguided and wrong conclusion is mind boggling. They are thumbing their noses at our hobby and I feel they are the first real threat of doing irreversible damage if the numbers they are discussing are accurate. Some how this needs to get shut down before this dam breaks.


----------



## hydrophyte

Some people just don't have any shame or sense of right & wrong.


----------



## oldlady25715

Scary stuff over there. Appears to be patenting the processes for mixing locales. Backed by weak assertions like there is one group of froggers who wants to bring nature into the home and the other who wants to improve upon nature. And that Dillon drew a tinc to 3 inches in 3 months. WTF.


----------



## JeremyHuff

oldlady25715 said:


> And that Dillon drew a tinc to 3 inches in 3 months. WTF.


Must have been a miracle of God.


----------



## Azurel

edwardsatc said:


> What really bothers me now is that it is quite obvious, from his comments about their mate choice experiments, that they are already crossing morphs. So, there is distinct possibility that there are already offspring and that they will be made available.
> 
> We could be too late to stop this train wreck.


Have to say I only lurk over there but had to like your post Donn....It is an absolute that this place and those who run it cannot be trusted and the original conclusions were correct. As bad DFC is/was I don't think even they can rate to the extreame threat that this warehouse of abomination is about to unleash.


----------



## oldlady25715

We should probably be protesting these trademarks as much of them are probably public realm stuff.

"This is the US Trademark registration application field in mid 2012 for our research is as follows:
Mark Image
Word Mark COLOR
Goods and Services IC 042. US 100 101. G & S: Scientific study and research in the field of reproduction, husbandry, and general health of captive bred reptiles and amphibians. FIRST USE (of the mark): 20130601. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE (of the mark): 20130901
Standard Characters Claimed 
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 85689544
Filing Date July 28, 2012
Current Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Published for Opposition January 8, 2013
Owner (APPLICANT) Rick Wascher 
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE"


----------



## Dane

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Just sifted through all Rick's bullcrap over there. The man is absolutely clueless. Their intentions are obvious.


Same here. What's with entities popping up hoping to succeed IN SPITE of the hobby?


----------



## Azurel

Dane said:


> Same here. What's with entities popping up hoping to succeed IN SPITE of the hobby?


They think they reinvented the wheel and are gonna make $$$$$$$$$$$. Never realizing the people they are pissing off are the people they need as friends....


----------



## hydrophyte

Dane said:


> Same here. What's with entities popping up hoping to succeed IN SPITE of the hobby?


Some people just go far out of their way to be crooked and dishonest and screw people (and frogs apparently) over.


----------



## markpulawski

Well if Dillon wants to leave his mark on this hobby he is certainly going to do so as the most hated injurious person to ever be involved in it....nice start to the business there Dillon.


----------



## Brian317

Wow, just read that thread over on DD. Had to get my knee high boots out to read all their BS. I don't wish failure on anybody, but I hope they fall flat on their face.


----------



## toksyn

SAFE® makes me think of and Hill's Science Diet® and Hill's Prescription Diet® (rant on those trademarks will be omitted). Sure, you can argue that it's used to denote "captive bred amphibians", but you can't argue that this misleading trademark is not accidentally misleading. 

In fact, despite defining your usage condition, you actually promote actively implying zero toxicity:



FrogZoo said:


> I wanted to chime in and clarify a few things. The fact that some (or all) frogs have secretions is of little concern to us and our use of SAFE as a trademark. The trademark SAFE is used, as our trademark, for "captive bred amphibians". A trademark designates source and is not descriptive. In your post it seems you suggest the trademark is being used descriptively. It is not, and in fact the entire world could use safe for dart fogs descriptively, and we ENCOURAGE it.
> 
> The entire purpose behind adopting the trademark, and yes there is a registration application filed, is to educate the consumer that we are a source of captive bred dart frogs. We could have used NOTOX or something like that, but we liked SAFE. On the "Spectrum of Distinctiveness" of trademark law, it falls in the suggestive and registrable category, not descriptive for the secretion reason you mentioned. Thanks for the help drawing the distinction.


"NOTOX"? How does this even begin to suggest the concept of captive bred vs. "no toxicity"? As Ed mentioned, they still have unSAFE secretions regardless of origin. There's also the statement in the banner on the homepage: "Each and every dart frog and tadpole we sell is captive bred, perfectly healthy, completely harmless, 100% NON-toxic, and beautifully displays the best conformation! GUARANTEED!" Not a single person outside of those with prior knowledge are going to read something alluding or declaring the concept of safety or non-toxicity and conclude "captive bred". 

I want to be supportive of new efforts and start-ups having been involved in and creating them myself. I can't get over the dishonesty and legal liberties being exercised here, though. The first incarnation of the website had me very confused and later convinced that either this company was, at best, closed two decades ago (dated approximately from the design), or was fraudulent. Seeing four of seven menu items with a trademark symbol doesn't change my perception. Rather, it dredges up the words "patent troll". Seeing an unrelated and, what I view as completely inappropriate, page from the same domain only further locked in my conclusions.

I don't typically get involved in discussions like this but, frankly, I'm very disappointed that another new business effort's first steps were to alienate and infuriate devoted hobbyists. I don't have an issue with turning to the aid of market analysts, attorneys, etc. The point of most businesses is to turn a profit. I do have an issue with someone trying to push a disingenuous mission and posting fictitious statements.

An aside about brick-and-mortar retailers: I've yet to encounter one that I can confidently say takes care of their animals. I'm not implying they don't exist, but my experiences tell me they are rare. I'm looping in the small reptile shops (at least in Gainesville and Tampa) with the big box stores, and in fact would come down on them all the harder because they know better. With the overcrowding, neglect, inappropriate or nonexistent habitats, and just the ridiculous number of live feeders roaming through the enclosure, it's amazing that animals survive, let alone being sold. Locally, I see emaciated dart frogs that I see sitting in unlit tanks with bare cocofiber substrate and a single coconut hut, or, best case, not-so-emaciated frogs again in a marginally planted tank with bare and waterlogged cocofiber substrate. All of this is included because it shapes my general view on pet stores in general: you'll need to be prepared to support large, cheap orders of frogs since you're trying to duplicate the leopard gecko model (originally, the ball python model with those ridiculous names) because the churn rate isn't going to be from sales. Queue additional backlash from those who care about animal conditions. I think it's safe to say that the mass produced frogs, regardless of quality, are also likely to become the bettas of the frog world with all of the attached nuances (including the shelf-full-of-dead-bettas-rotting-in-cups one). 

Or maybe I'm just too pessimistic . Perhaps, in view of your actual objectives, the only outcome would have been angry hobbyists.


----------



## toksyn

And, moments after posting, I discover many more posts and that OP may have abandoned ship. 

I need to write shorter replies.


----------



## Halter

This may of been mentioned earlier, i read and might of missed it. I noticed tadpole groups being for sale---They have mixed locale groups of Auratus or Tinctorious and in the description it says "great for starting a group tank"

Upsets me.


----------



## frogface

No one who knows anything about frogs would call them perfectly healthy or completely harmless. It will be interesting to see the fallout when Little Jimmy contracts an zoonotic disease from one of these animals advertised as perfectly healthy and completely harmless.


----------



## LoganR

Just read the DD post it as well - it was kind of like being unable to drive by a gruesome accident without staring. Unfortunately, it isn't an accident, it appears to be the results of several years of planning.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

toksyn said:


> And, moments after posting, I discover many more posts and that OP may have abandoned ship.
> 
> I need to write shorter replies.


They have indeed. I suspect they'll be run off of even Dart Den before too long. Even Phel won't be able to put up with this BS, although, perhaps Rich Frye will have a new b!tch for a while and poor Sydney Ferrel can tap out for a while.

AFK Popcorn
(Actually I'm packing up some vanzolini)


----------



## FroggyKnight

Halter said:


> This may of been mentioned earlier, i read and might of missed it. I noticed tadpole groups being for sale---They have mixed locale groups of Auratus or Tinctorious and in the description it says "great for starting a group tank"
> 
> Upsets me.


I just noticed it as well….. Truly sad. If they were to just speak with a few dedicated hobbyists, they would have avoided all this mess. Heck, if they spoke to a few good hobbyists their business might have taken off very well.


----------



## Azurel

You know what burns my crev-ass is we have here a group/family that hasn't put in anytime(2yrs) in to the hobby, haven't helped anyone haven't made helpfull post.

Then.....

Think they can come in as selfcentered idealogues(the Dad) and expect we will let them carve out a piece of they hobby for themselves muchless in a manner that in one month of being on the boards it doesn't take a genius to know that the hobby at large does not, will not accept hybrids and mixed gene frogs. 

Who the hell do you people think you are?


----------



## FroggyKnight

toksyn said:


> And, moments after posting, I discover many more posts and that OP may have abandoned ship.
> 
> I need to write shorter replies.


Wait. Does this mean they might need a new closing thread? We already decimated their opening thread


----------



## edwardsatc

markpulawski said:


> Well if Dillon wants to leave his mark on this hobby he is certainly going to do so as the most hated injurious person to ever be involved in it....nice start to the business there Dillon.


I'm not sure I want to blame the kid yet. Sounds more like a kid who was passionate about frogs and his lawyer dad corrupted the whole thing with his crazy ideas and obsession with trademarking everything in sight.

I'm willing to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. His father, on the other hand, has made his motives and intentions crystal clear.


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> I'm not sure I want to blame the kid yet. Sounds more like a kid who was passionate about frogs and his lawyer dad corrupted the whole thing with his crazy ideas and obsession with trademarking everything in sight.
> 
> I'm willing to give the kid the benefit of the doubt. His father, on the other hand, has made his motives and intentions crystal clear.


I'm not with you on this one. If the kid had any real desire to make friends in this hobby he would have to realize by now that his Dad isn't helping him...



Side note... I just "thanked" rich frye for the first time in my life... I feel dirty


----------



## dartsanddragons

now that's funny


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> I'm not with you on this one. If the kid had any real desire to make friends in this hobby he would have to realize by now that his Dad isn't helping him...


That's cool. My guess is that he's probably not happy with the situation but since dad appears to be in control of the purse strings, he may be reluctant to speak up. From what I know there are two brothers also involved and I guess I'm just not willing to go stomping on the reputation (or dreams) of three kids without something definitive. So far, all we have is dad spouting off and seemingly giving the finger to the majority of hobbyists.




carola1155 said:


> Side note... I just "thanked" rich frye for the first time in my life... I feel dirty


Strange huh? I've found myself agreeing with him lately and it feels weird but, regardless of my frequent strong disagreements with him, I don't have a problem acknowledging when he's right.


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> That's cool. My guess is that he's probably not happy with the situation but since dad appears to be in control of the purse strings, he may be reluctant to speak up. From what I know there are two brothers also involved and I guess I'm just not willing to go stomping on the reputation (or dreams) of three kids without something definitive. So far, all we have is dad spouting off and seemingly giving the finger to the majority of hobbyists.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Strange huh? I've found myself agreeing with him lately and it feels weird but, regardless of my frequent strong disagreements with him, I don't have a problem acknowledging when he's right.


I understand where you are coming from... but I would imagine if there was any hope for the kids they would be complaining to their dad about how he is ruining things for them. If they haven't recognized that he is hurting them yet, they have already drank too much kool-aid and there is little hope anyway.

as for the Rich thing... there is no doubt that he is frequently correct about things and a pretty smart guy. It's just the way he presents himself that always irked me, so I always avoided showing any sort of "approval" towards what he said.


----------



## JJuchems

DD still lets them place their classified ads, so more people can see and buy their frogs...

This is not good for the hobby in any form. 

The Wascher family clearly has no respect for the hobby to continue to "buck the system."

I really am disgusted by it. Like I have stated before, I don't have a problem with people making a living from their hobby or passion. What I have a problem with disregarding the established practices. Nothing is broken in the hobby concerning morphs, but now we get to deal with the offspring and the folks who are going to feel ripped off from purchasing from them.


----------



## kitcolebay

Halter said:


> This may of been mentioned earlier, i read and might of missed it. I noticed tadpole groups being for sale---They have mixed locale groups of Auratus or Tinctorious and in the description it says "great for starting a group tank"
> 
> Upsets me.


Wow! I just had to look this up too. Tadpoles, Auratus, Four (4) Tad Assortment

Now they are setting it up for beginners to do all the mixing themselves by getting 4 completely different auratus tads. Oh, and don't forget, "if used with our Patent Pending 10 gallon tank setup kit, PERFECT!". 

Now they are quickly serving their Kool-Aid to as many as possible to the young and/or naive. Absolutely horrifying to think what it's going to be like in a couple years when all these people (hopefully none) have all these offspring from their "variety" packs! 

-Chris


----------



## markpulawski

The sad part if this thing can ever get fixed it would mean that hundreds of frogs will need to be destroyed, of course like Dev mentioned selling them through the big box stores will take a care of a certain % of that but still I see a lot of needless suffering. And ultimately some of the people that they bring into the hobby, as their passion grows and they want to progress will then realize what they have is garbage, lots of disappointment all around.


----------



## thedude

markpulawski said:


> The sad part if this thing can ever get fixed it would mean that hundreds of frogs will need to be destroyed, of course like Dev mentioned selling them through the big box stores will take a care of a certain % of that but still I see a lot of needless suffering. And ultimately some of the people that they bring into the hobby, as their passion grows and they want to progress will then realize what they have is garbage, lots of disappointment all around.


Sounds like you are blowing it out of proportion, their site says that it's all SAFE!

Seriously though, this is beyond ridiculous. Especially after reading all the "scientific knowledge" that this guys knows over on DD. It actually made my head hurt...


----------



## JeremyHuff

Anyone in the SE have an idea of what "educational chain" might be buying their frogs. We could start writing potential distributors.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I've found several gems over on their website. Sadly, I missed screenshotting the religious diatribe they had posted that has been taken down.

I have noticed though that their website evolves constantly is response to much of the criticism we post. At first it seems they were willing to listen, not they're directly attacking and attempting to marginalize the dart frog hobby. 

I've started taking screen caps of their actual site as it changes. Obviously this Rick guy, is a lawyer and I. Have no doubt, should you quote their website, and then they change it, that he would claim they never said that. Should anyone run into that issue, please let me know, I have only a few screens so far, but no doubt that will change.

At this point, it is obvious that Dart Frog Warehouse presents a clear and present danger to our hobby. Were going to have to be proactive in going after them. You can see in everything they are doing that they are bad for the hobby.

I have no real concern that they're actually a threat to current hobbyists. I think the vast majority of us can see through the BS. It is the new hobbyists, those that are unaware of accepted hobby norms and practices that we need to be worried about. I feel there is serious potential for long term harm. It's not something I don't think we're collectively capable of stopping or containing.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

This deeply saddens me. I worry that between this, and the other "threat" thread, we may be seeing the end of our hobby as we know and love it.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

JeremyHuff said:


> Anyone in the SE have an idea of what "educational chain" might be buying their frogs. We could start writing potential distributors.


Carolina Biological?


----------



## JayMillz

True Doug, I think this could be the point that inevitably would happen where the era of froggers separates. We as as community can only do so much, even united. But suppose the few hundred of us on here all spread the word that in this hobby, a hybrid frog is worth exactly $0 to us and considered inferior. Spread the word at shows, forums, etc. I know I'd take it personal if I was selling some frogs and someone told me "I don't want anything to do with your garbage frogs." We might not be able to control it, but we can exile individuals in a way and block them from future progressions that are made. I don't think the hobby will be shredded to pieces, but the group of people who care are going to be brought closer together a whole. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> I've found several gems over on their website. Sadly, I missed screenshotting the religious diatribe they had posted that has been taken down.
> 
> I have noticed though that their website evolves constantly is response to much of the criticism we post. At first it seems they were willing to listen, not they're directly attacking and attempting to marginalize the dart frog hobby.
> 
> I've started taking screen caps of their actual site as it changes. Obviously this Rick guy, is a lawyer and I. Have no doubt, should you quote their website, and then they change it, that he would claim they never said that. Should anyone run into that issue, please let me know, I have only a few screens so far, but no doubt that will change.
> 
> At this point, it is obvious that Dart Frog Warehouse presents a clear and present danger to our hobby. Were going to have to be proactive in going after them. You can see in everything they are doing that they are bad for the hobby.
> 
> I have no real concern that they're actually a threat to current hobbyists. I think the vast majority of us can see through the BS. It is the new hobbyists, those that are unaware of accepted hobby norms and practices that we need to be worried about. I feel there is serious potential for long term harm. It's not something I don't think we're collectively capable of stopping or containing.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

epiphytes etc. said:


> This deeply saddens me. I worry that between this, and the other "threat" thread, we may be seeing the end of our hobby as we know and love it.


I'm hopeful that we can keep this DFW thing in check. I know I certainly won't go quietly on either front.

On a side note, it was mentioned to me that DFW contacted DFC to sell their frogs. At this point, that is only heresay, I can't confirm it. I haven't been able to PM that person back yet but I'll ask them to give me more details or share them publicly. I want to be clear though, they did NOT say if DFC agreed.


----------



## frogface

JayMillz said:


> True Doug, I think this could be the point that inevitably would happen where the era of froggers separates. We as as community can only do so much, even united. But suppose the few hundred of us on here all spread the word that in this hobby, a hybrid frog is worth exactly $0 to us and considered inferior. Spread the word at shows, forums, etc. I know I'd take it personal if I was selling some frogs and someone told me "I don't want anything to do with your garbage frogs." We might not be able to control it, but we can exile individuals in a way and block them from future progressions that are made. I don't think the hobby will be shredded to pieces, but the group of people who care are going to be brought closer together a whole.


I'm hoping that people who might buy these frogs will eventually make their way to a PDF website where they will learn that they were duped, and, will take corrective steps (euthanize, don't breed, whatever). Then they will take the sellers to task. I can't see this enterprize succeeding, long term, with their current business model. However, I can see much damage in the meantime.


----------



## Ed

Aren't all of you looking forward to all of the future posts asking what kind of frog they have so they can pair it up or sell it? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## aspidites73

Rick R. Wascher
Currently Employed At 111 Laws Road
McMinnville, TN 37110
Admission Details	1990, Texas; 1991, Tennessee; registered to practice before U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
Education	University of Illinois, B.S.; University of Oklahoma, J.D.

also owns:
frogzoo.com
tadkits.com
dendroshop.com
usafrog.com
gods_will.com


----------



## Gamble

You know, I was thinking ... 

We all keep talking about the frog aspect & the ramifications of it.

One Thing That I havent seen mentioned:

What is going to be the ramifications on all of these patents?
Can existing vendors be sued by him/them for violating some kind of patent that they are unaware even existed?
(and now owned by Rick the dipstick)

Part of me is starting to think that it wasn't the frogs he/they saw as the cash cow ... but all of the patents he saw that could be done bc they simply don't exist ... and that was his cash register.
I see the patents & trademarks as his backup plan for revenue when the frog side eventually fails.

I'm am certainly not versed in business law & i could be totally wrong, but when I keep seeing this patent stuff, it makes me think of Apple & all of the sueing/royalties they do/get due to all of the copyrights & patents they own.

This could potentially change our hobby in more ways than one & none of it in a good way.

Can someone here who has knowledge on this educate me please.


----------



## markpulawski

this guy owns gods will? I may be backing off a bit....


----------



## carola1155

aspidites73 said:


> Rick R. Wascher
> Currently Employed At 111 Laws Road
> McMinnville, TN 37110
> Admission Details	1990, Texas; 1991, Tennessee; registered to practice before U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
> Education	University of Illinois, B.S.; University of Oklahoma, J.D.
> 
> also owns:
> frogzoo.com
> tadkits.com
> dendroshop.com
> usafrog.com
> gods_will.com


I had been doing some digging on that stuff too... but the address doesn't seem to fit with their website that says they are in Bartlett TN which is practically across the state.

Side note... they have removed the "Q" header at the top of the page and changed quite a few things since I last checked yesterday. So it seems they are at least watching what we are saying... just not actually making the changes that would benefit anybody but themselves.


----------



## frogface

Since he has trademarked the word SAFE, I guess we will now have to spell it saFe. One difference, though, is we won't be using that word to describe frogs because it is not true.


----------



## aspidites73

carola1155 said:


> I had been doing some digging on that stuff too... but the address doesn't seem to fit with their website that says they are in Bartlett TN which is practically across the state.
> 
> Side note... they have removed the "Q" header at the top of the page and changed quite a few things since I last checked yesterday. So it seems they are at least watching what we are saying... just not actually making the changes that would benefit anybody but themselves.


He has a bunch of addresses on public record...the main website is registered in Wisconsin

from whois.com
Domain Name: BUYDARTFROGS.COM
Registrar URL: Domain Names | The World's Largest Domain Name Registrar - GoDaddy
Updated Date: 2013-04-13 10:29:11
Creation Date: 2012-04-10 10:15:01
Registrar Expiration Date: 2014-04-10 10:15:01
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Registrant Name: Rick Wascher
Registrant Organization: 
Registrant Street: 2620 Fox Hill Drive
Registrant City: Waukesha
Registrant State/Province: Wisconsin
Registrant Postal Code: 53189
Registrant Country: United States

He and his wife, both were found at the same addresses. please don't ask me for any of his wife's info.....she is not involved in this


----------



## toksyn

Hence my comment about patent troll. 



Gamble said:


> You know, I was thinking ...
> 
> We all keep talking about the frog aspect & the ramifications of it.
> 
> One Thing That I havent seen mentioned:
> 
> What is going to be the ramifications on all of these patents?
> Can existing vendors be sued by him/them for violating some kind of patent that they are unaware even existed?
> (and now owned by Rick the dipstick)
> 
> Part of me is starting to think that it wasn't the frogs he/they saw as the cash cow ... but all of the patents he saw that could be done bc they simply don't exist ... and that was his cash register.
> I see the patents & trademarks as his backup plan for revenue when the frog side eventually fails.
> 
> I'm am certainly not versed in business law & i could be totally wrong, but when I keep seeing this patent stuff, it makes me think of Apple & all of the sueing/royalties they do/get due to all of the copyrights & patents they own.
> 
> This could potentially change our hobby in more ways than one & none of it in a good way.
> 
> Can someone here who has knowledge on this educate me please.




Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I've found several gems over on their website. Sadly, I missed screenshotting the religious diatribe they had posted that has been taken down.
> 
> I have noticed though that their website evolves constantly is response to much of the criticism we post. At first it seems they were willing to listen, not they're directly attacking and attempting to marginalize the dart frog hobby.
> 
> I've started taking screen caps of their actual site as it changes. Obviously this Rick guy, is a lawyer and I. Have no doubt, should you quote their website, and then they change it, that he would claim they never said that. Should anyone run into that issue, please let me know, I have only a few screens so far, but no doubt that will change.
> 
> At this point, it is obvious that Dart Frog Warehouse presents a clear and present danger to our hobby. Were going to have to be proactive in going after them. You can see in everything they are doing that they are bad for the hobby.
> 
> I have no real concern that they're actually a threat to current hobbyists. I think the vast majority of us can see through the BS. It is the new hobbyists, those that are unaware of accepted hobby norms and practices that we need to be worried about. I feel there is serious potential for long term harm. It's not something I don't think we're collectively capable of stopping or containing.


I've been taking quite a few screen shots too. 

The paragraph at the bottom of the current home page seems to be an apparent response to the thread on DD. Click on the link in the last line to see the really shocking statements. It basically says that they don't give a crap what the majority of hobbyists think or want ... like I said before, this guy is just waving the middle finger at us.

I may email Stefan Lotters and possibly the other authors to see if any would be willing to comment on DFW's total misrepresentation and misinterpretation of text that they quote from Poison Frogs: Biology, Species and Captive Husbandry.

This is the most pissed off I've ever been in this hobby. Even more than the raging battle between myself and RF over panacur several years ago...


----------



## aspidites73

You should see all he has had, or does have trademarked. Most are simple words.. Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia

http://www.legalforce.com/company-rick-wascher-3892538-page-1-2

Trademark application for US Dart Frogs: http://www.legalforce.com/us-dart-frog-85875500.html



toksyn said:


> Hence my comment about patent troll.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## Gamble

And now they are "the breeder of more dart frogs than anyone else in the country".

What a joke.


----------



## frogface

I think I will trademark the word 'and'. That way, everyone but me would have to type in short sentences.


----------



## edwardsatc

I just read the "Community Helps" page on their website. The fact that they actually use the word "community" is ironic and funny in and of itself. But for more comedy read on ...

Apparently their research indicates that methyl paraben "hybridizes" flies. Funny right? But even funnier when you realize that they think that hybridize means "makes sterile"!!!

They also state that their "research" shows that methyl paraben has effects on female frog health and egg production. 

Oh how I'd love to see some of this "research" ... but that's probably trademarked and patented too.


----------



## carola1155

People like this suck the joy out of this hobby... 

All I gotta say is keep very detailed records of your animals and make sure you educate everyone that buys from you. I have a spreadsheet showing who I buy from, lines, offspring and all that good stuff... all that is going to be important when we have to clean up the mess these mix-morph frogs are gonna cause.


----------



## easternversant

Someone should go to their facility, lick all their frogs, get sick, and sue this buttwipe for widely proclaiming SAFE frogs. Clearly he has no idea that they have other compounds and can be carriers for diseases.

Bonus points for projectile vomiting on him!

Legal disclaimer: I'm in no way advocating this behavior.


----------



## toksyn

He trademarked "Color" and is going to be releasing "Premium ARTfrogs". I ... I'm just at a complete loss for words.


----------



## Jeremiah

Okay, after reading through this thread and their website the hair on the back of my neck is standing up! These ignorant people can do serious damage to the hobby.

He is twisting the reference, Lotters et al., to support his claim to breed different populations together. What he is doing is taking what happens in nature sometimes, think the different populations of O. Lehmanni, when populations overlap to an extreme to create these "Premium" frogs. Many populations DO NOT mix naturally! There are rivers, Mt.'s, ect., that create little islands of populations throughout Central and South America, which make each population different. And that is what we, as hobbyist, have always tried to preserve.


This guy is indeed giving the middle finger to all of us hobbyist.

Something needs to be done. Maybe a nice worded email, treat him with kid gloves to help him see why we are all upset? Thats the best idea I can think of...?


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> I may email Stefan Lotters and possibly the other authors to see if any would be willing to comment on DFW's total misrepresentation and misinterpretation of text that they quote from Poison Frogs: Biology, Species and Captive Husbandry.


no harm in sending an email right? If they don't want to get involved they can just not answer... if they do, I'd love to see the response


----------



## aspidites73

Without naming names, has anyone cross referenced the names under their 'customer reviews' with DB user names? There is really only one with enough info to do so. (hint hint) Maybe someone here knows the possible person i speak of.


----------



## LoganR

Jeremiah said:


> This guy is indeed giving the middle finger to all of us hobbyist.
> 
> Something needs to be done. Maybe a nice worded email, treat him with kid gloves to help him see why we are all upset? Thats the best idea I can think of...?


They are seeing what we have had to say - their website has changed a number of times as a response to what we have to say. In spite of what we have to say, they are proceeding with activities that will may have a very negative impact upon the dart frog hobby.

Their ideas of "research" befuddle me - I doubt they have a clue how to conduct research - especially considering that their literature search appears to be composed of a few misinterpreted phrases from one publication.

I do begin to suspect that they may have an endgame in mind regarding these multiple patents.


----------



## toksyn

Actually, and I risk stepping on toes here, but their attitude regarding research / literature is right in line with the religious nonsense they had put up. 



LoganR said:


> They are seeing what we have had to say - their website has changed a number of times as a response to what we have to say. In spite of what we have to say, they are proceeding with activities that will may have a very negative impact upon the dart frog hobby.
> 
> Their ideas of "research" befuddle me - I doubt they have a clue how to conduct research - especially considering that their literature search appears to be composed of a few misinterpreted phrases from one publication.
> 
> I do begin to suspect that they may have an endgame in mind regarding these multiple patents.




Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Now that I've looked at the buy tadpoles page more closely, I know that the frogs I raise from tadpoles are bonded to me and look at me as a parent. I never realized they had that capacity.


----------



## Trickishleaf

I live in the area and had contacted them about visiting the facility, as they claimed to be open for earlier. Dillon said they were still settling in from the move in June, but maybe later.

I have a suspicion that the retail store might be Knowledge Tree, but I can 't be sure.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Azurel

markpulawski said:


> this guy owns gods will? I may be backing off a bit....


LoL.....

Good points Gamble in your post....something that needs a little looking into.


----------



## edwardsatc

epiphytes etc. said:


> Now that I've looked at the buy tadpoles page more closely, I know that the frogs I raise from tadpoles are bonded to me and look at me as a parent. I never realized they had that capacity.


Holy shit, how did I miss that page!
- a single enclosure is fine for multiple morphs
- a ten gallon tank is ok for mixed species or morphs
- A patent pending 10 gallon tank !?!
Okay, now i feel like he is just putting shit up there just to piss us off.


----------



## LoganR

Trickishleaf said:


> I have a suspicion that the retail store might be Knowledge Tree, but I can 't be sure.


I don't see any live materials on Knowledge Tree's website; so they don't seem to be the best candidate unless their retail stores also carry live animals. I think an earler poster may be correct with guessing it is Carolina Biological. But it could be something else entirely.

I can only hope that their potential retail partner sees this thread. If only it somehow came to their attention....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> 3. How many frogs of this type do you have in inventory to sell? This question goes to the depth of their inventory, and the “you get what you get” approach to customer service. For example, if they only have 3 of a certain type, you will get what you get. If they have fifty, they may be more apt to select one based on your wishes. We always select frogs for our customers. We ask you what you want, then we go get it or the best match–total quality! Here are some of our recent requests and we fulfilled them all, easily.
> 
> "If you got Aqua blue, I would like as many of them as you can find. If there are any darker blue ones I would like a few of them also. Variance of design is a plus also. "
> "We like darker blue Azureus any type of spots works. Not picky about the Leucs and Auratus."
> "Would love to have the Blue & Black Auratus to be heavy on females if possible. I know they are young to be sexed at this point. Maybe just choose large ones."
> "Light blue with large spots"


How about this doozy? Never has one company or frogger provided so much ammunition from their own website.

One of the reasons I'm not too terribly worried about them doing significant harm is that they'll likely collapse under the weight of their own stupidity.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

LoganR said:


> I can only hope that their potential retail partner sees this thread. If only it somehow came to their attention....


When we find out you can be damn sure they'll here from me, and I'll let you know who, so we can all voice our concerns.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> Holy shit, how did I miss that page!
> - a single enclosure is fine for multiple morphs
> - a ten gallon tank is ok for mixed species or morphs
> - A patent pending 10 gallon tank !?!
> Okay, now i feel like he is just putting shit up there just to piss us off.


Completely asinine and irresponsible.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Homepage has changed again, it is now ARTfrogwarehouse, not DART,

And now dARTfrog warehouse.com

They've changed the text and links at the bottom of the homepage again.



> On the technical side, the only consistently reliable resource for information about dart frogs is, without a doubt, the amazing work by Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt, titled: Poison Frogs, Biology, Species, & Captive Husbandry, 2007. Lotters, et al., are from Europe, the true epicenter of dart frog information and breeding. They studied the wild ancestors of our totally harmless colored frogs, and the driving force behind our gorgeous, equally harmless, ARTfrogs premium lines we sell! As such, we consider ourselves schooled by the masters, Lotters et al. as the true experts around the globe, in the European style with a Made in the U.S.A. pioneering patriotism. Commenting on the wild ancestors of these frogs, and their relation to captive bred specimens, Lotters, et al., say dart frog appearance should never be the reason for distinction within a species becasue variations occur widely, and frequently, in nature. Consequently, without fear of confusion and in the spirit of Lotters et al. leadership, we have chosen our own trademark names for all of the varieties we sell, including the most common frogs.


----------



## Dragonfish

Quick! Somebody trademark ARTfrog!


----------



## Jeremiah

Dragonfish said:


> Quick! Somebody trademark ARTfrog!


I dont keep dart frogs, I keep Artfrogs...

Can you imagine?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> This is important because, outside of thumbnail species of dat frogs which we do not currently breed, the hobby seems overwhelmed and preoccupied with serious issues including quality, disease laden frogs, testing for diseases, and to a large extent a fixation on bloodline impurity, as well as cross-breeds between species. They are working hard to remedy the defects by seeking standardization, regulation and compliance, ala unifomity[sic], and we wish them well. We are free from the hobby issues entirely.


How can any educated hobbyist take this seriously. Is it even worth the time or effort to pick this nonsense apart?

And for Christ's Sake Rick, use a spellchecker... Any god damn first grader can do that.

Unifomity, really?


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> How can any educated hobbyist take this seriously. Is it even worth the time or effort to pick this nonsense apart?
> 
> And for Christ's Sake Rick, use a spellchecker... Any god damn first grader can do that.
> 
> Unifomity, really?


I love the sentence "We are free from the hobby issues entirely."

No they ARE the hobby issue.


----------



## carola1155

unless I'm missing something... they have seemingly removed the explanation of what "SAFE" branding means...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> DFW did contact us. We decline to do any business with them. We do not agree with their business practice. Their approach will really harm the hobby.
> 
> We all know how some people feel about DFC but, we would never do anything to harm this hobby. We do not recommend mixing species. We provide proper education information on our site. We do everything we can to support the hobby.
> 
> In fact, DFW took your ONE HOP SHOP for your dart frog needs and trademarked it as ONE HOP, even though we have used it first and have intellectual property rights to this. But, we are not about to start another battle on Dendroboard.
> 
> DFC is simply focusing on breeding, providing great services to our customers and hope slowly that it will change people's mind about us along the way.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Daniel, owner of DartFrogConnection
> __________________


Too their credit, DFC choose to address this issue with me.


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Homepage has changed again, it is now ARTfrogwarehouse, not DART,
> 
> And now dARTfrog warehouse.com
> 
> They've changed the text and links at the bottom of the homepage again.


They've seriously underestimated the tenacity of many in this hobby. They're now trying to distance themselves and hide from google searches that link them to threads on these boards.

Whatever ... we can start new threads as fast as they can change their name.


----------



## JayMillz

Dillon, you may just want to consider enlisting, doing 4 years in the service, then get yourself another chance at college and just pass the frog business over to Rick. There's nothing wrong with being a late bloomer. I'm going to be 30 in a couple of weeks and will just finally be starting my senior year this spring. As for the loss of your car, maybe take a trip and try your luck on The Price is Right?


----------



## frogface

carola1155 said:


> unless I'm missing something... they have seemingly removed the explanation of what "SAFE" branding means...


LMAO maybe they actually looked up some of those zoonotic diseases


----------



## frogparty

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Too their credit, DFC choose to address this issue with me.


Id love to see DFC, Joshs, Black Jungle, etc etc put up a little BEWARE artfrogs disclaimer on their sites, but that may likely be unnecessary. I dont see these guys lasting long. Too big, too fast, too much BS. I doubt that many people will fall for it.


----------



## carola1155

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Too their credit, DFC choose to address this issue with me.


I've always thought that they were a good business with a bad employee... and that just helps validate it. At least they are trying to take steps to expand the hobby without bastardizing it.

What we are dealing with now seems to be a bad business with a whole host of bad employees. All around a bad thing for our hobby.


----------



## oldlady25715

Anyone know anyone in Anonymous we can ask to crash the site? 

Legal disclaimer: I am not not condoning internet sabatouge


----------



## edwardsatc

frogparty said:


> Id love to see DFC, Joshs, Black Jungle, etc etc put up a little BEWARE artfrogs disclaimer on their sites, but that may likely be unnecessary. I dont see these guys lasting long. Too big, too fast, too much BS. I doubt that many people will fall for it.


Whether they last long or not, their thousands of mixed and line bred frogs are going to go somewhere and eventually make it into the hobby.

My fear is that the damage may have already been done.


----------



## frogparty

i WONDER WHAT THEIR ACTUAL SALES #S LOOK LIKE AS OF RIGHT NOW


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogparty said:


> Id love to see DFC, Joshs, Black Jungle, etc etc put up a little BEWARE artfrogs disclaimer on their sites, but that may likely be unnecessary. I dont see these guys lasting long. Too big, too fast, too much BS. I doubt that many people will fall for it.


That would, unless very carefully worded, probably expose them to legal issues. They'd have to be very careful how to word it. I have some ideas, but later.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Please join me in a Google campaign, and search the phrase "art frogs are bad pets" as often as possible. Thank you.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

oldlady25715 said:


> Anyone know anyone in Anonymous we can ask to crash the site?
> 
> Legal disclaimer: I am not not condoning internet sabatouge


Actually yes, but this is beneath them. I'll txt him though, he might be bored.


----------



## edwardsatc

As quoted from the website:

"The experts Lotters et al. say the names for the varieties used in the hobby are "utter nonsense" because they lack association with credible genetic taxonomy. Therefore, in the interests of disassociation with utter nonsense according to Lotters, we adopt and use our own trademark names for all of the frogs we sell. However, so as not to offend the hobby, we will also use their frog names as the common, generic, terms for our common generic frogs as well."

This would be hilarious if the situation weren't so bad.

Let me get this right ... you want to replace what you perceive as utter nonsense with your own "trademarked" utter nonsense? Wow, genius!


----------



## markpulawski

For a man who references God a lot it sure seems he is coming from the other side of things, bet his closets would scare the crap out of all of us.


----------



## edwardsatc

Hey Rick,

Despite the fact that I've already given up nearly two days of my own LEGITIMATE research debunking the crap that you are spewing, I'm going to stay on top of this topic like flies on shit, or Ted Cruz on Obamacare, or Rich Frye on Sydney ...

In other words, it's going to be a long, long time before this topic goes away.


----------



## Firawen

ZookeeperDoug said:


> That would, unless very carefully worded, probably expose them to legal issues. They'd have to be very careful how to word it. I have some ideas, but later.


Yea I'd be careful with that. From a few quick google searches, it looks like Rick might be a lawyer.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## aspidites73

Simply keep the mention of art frogs, and how their designator is purposely trying to make a new market for designer frogs that will, ultimately, put the true Dart Frogs at risk. DB is indexed frequently by google. You'd be surprised how quickly a few posts here get spidered into google searches. It will link back to this thread, and people will see their true colors.....and it ain't sunshine
Dart frogs are not Art Frogs, unless you consider mother nature the artist who made them. What they are doing is not art, it's akin to that priceless Jesus painting that was 'updated' by the woman, several months back

EDIT: here is the link for those who may have missed it http://www.geekosystem.com/fresco-ruiner-sells-painting/

EDIT #2: The may have removed the definition of SAFE as it pertains to their animals but the below quoted text remains there



> Each and every dart frog and tadpole we sell is captive bred, perfectly healthy, completely harmless, 100% NON-toxic, and beautifully displays the best conformation! GUARANTEED!


----------



## CJW

Looks like they will have a pretty high overhead there. If this wasn't so lastingly irresponsible, I would find it cute that they think that there was so much money in dart frogs. It's almost like they think that nobody has tried this angle before.


----------



## Moriko

So I've been reading along as this topic progresses. I'm still new to this hobby (still under 1 year) and I've never attempted to run a business. However, viewing the business practices of this company (and the constant changing website) has floored me. The fact that they would bring these practices to this forum of all places.. just amazes me. Thankfully they did so everyone here has a chance to derail this catastrophe!

I was going to post about something last night that I read on there site. Of course, it is no longer on there.. go figure. It was about one of their projects that they were planning. Almost like a matchmaking section for frogs. 

These are the points that I can remember for sure. 

1. You view a pic of their eligible bachelor/bachelorette frogs
2. You send them your frog to attempt to breed them with said frog. 
3. They keep your frog for a few months to attempt breeding
4. If all goes well they split the offspring with you. 
5. They try to get 100 viable eggs from this process
6. You pay to have your frog shipped back. 

This saddens me. Not only do they plan to overbreed your frog, but then put it through shipping stress afterwards with no regard for the frogs. It's almost like a puppy mill for frogs!!

As I said, this has been removed for now. That still doesn't remove the fact that this was an idea and business plan for them.


----------



## frogfreak

Help #2
"Go-to-Market" Program
This a great program for new breeders, and anyone breeding the frogs we sell. If you buy our frogs and successfully breed them, we have a built in very low cost marketplace for you to sell your froglet offspring online alongside ours. We provide this service to promote the expansion of dart frog ownership and responsible commerce, and offer an alternate marketplace for all. In fact, our wholesale contacts may want some frogs from you and may become their partner breeder we need! We can help you post your frogs for sale and enable the drop ship function. If a customer buys, you handle the transaction and delivery details, and we simply clear and disperse the funds into your account. This program is very streamlined.

Community Helps


----------



## frogface

Moriko said:


> So I've been reading along as this topic progresses. I'm still new to this hobby (still under 1 year) and I've never attempted to run a business. However, viewing the business practices of this company (and the constant changing website) has floored me. The fact that they would bring these practices to this forum of all places.. just amazes me. Thankfully they did so everyone here has a chance to derail this catastrophe!
> 
> I was going to post about something last night that I read on there site. Of course, it is no longer on there.. go figure. It was about one of their projects that they were planning. Almost like a matchmaking section for frogs.
> 
> These are the points that I can remember for sure.
> 
> 1. You view a pic of their eligible bachelor/bachelorette frogs
> 2. You send them your frog to attempt to breed them with said frog.
> 3. They keep your frog for a few months to attempt breeding
> 4. If all goes well they split the offspring with you.
> 5. They try to get 100 viable eggs from this process
> 6. You pay to have your frog shipped back.
> 
> This saddens me. Not only do they plan to overbreed your frog, but then put it through shipping stress afterwards with no regard for the frogs. It's almost like a puppy mill for frogs!!
> 
> As I said, this has been removed for now. That still doesn't remove the fact that this was an idea and business plan for them.


Wait, What?! They will be pairing up their frogs with random mail order frog brides that they will keep for a few months? Where, in that few months, is time for adequate quarantine and testing to ensure all these completely harmless and absolutely disease free or whatever else BS frogs they have for offer?

eta: Would you even know what they were pairing them with or is it a mystery grab bag? Try to guess what will morph out! It's half the fun! I feel sick.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

frogface said:


> Wait, What?! They will be pairing up their frogs with random mail order frog brides that they will keep for a few months? Where, in that few months, is time for adequate quarantine and testing to ensure all these completely harmless and absolutely disease free or whatever else BS frogs they have for offer?
> 
> eta: Would you even know what they were pairing them with or is it a mystery grab bag? Try to guess what will morph out! It's half the fun! I feel sick.


Maybe you should send them your new frogs, you know, help them out.


----------



## Moriko

> Wait, What?! They will be pairing up their frogs with random mail order frog brides that they will keep for a few months? Where, in that few months, is time for adequate quarantine and testing to ensure all these completely harmless and absolutely disease free or whatever else BS frogs they have for offer?


I didn't even take that into consideration, but you are right! I was focusing on the 'frog mill' scenario and that didn't even cross my mind. I wish that I had thought to screen shot the page, but I expected it to still be there today. I remember something about them keeping the frog for a set number if months, and if there is no luck, you can extend the agreement or have your frog shipped back. They also said you could watch your frog through a webcam while it was away.


----------



## frogface

epiphytes etc. said:


> Maybe you should send them your new frogs, you know, help them out.


OMG... omg... pull me back from that ledge. Too, too tempting.


----------



## Moriko

[quoteeta: Would you even know what they were pairing them with or is it a mystery grab bag? Try to guess what will morph out! It's half the fun! I feel sick.][/quote]

They said there would be high res photos of the frogs available for breeding. I assume you would message them to let them know which frog you wanted to 'sire' your frog.


----------



## frogface

Moriko said:


> They said there would be high res photos of the frogs available for breeding. I assume you would message them to let them know which frog you wanted to 'sire' your frog.


Their frog might look like your Azureus but may actually be an Azureus Special Midnight BLue Frog.


----------



## carola1155

hey guys look... I found this great website that is selling "Colored Frogs" !!!! 










These frogs actually have... COLORS!!!


On a more serious note... I can see what they are trying to do here and it is pretty elementary. "if we call the normal frogs common frogs... and then our hybrids "premium" frogs.... we will make money!!!"

It kinda reminds me of this (for you south park fans out there):


----------



## oldlady25715

Just when you thought it couldn't get more asinine.


----------



## edwardsatc

Rick,

Here are some related Lotters publications which contain some information which further debunks your misinterpretation of Lotters et al. Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry

Wollenberg K. C, M. Veith, B. P. Noonan, *S. Lötters* (2006). Polymorphism versus species richness – Systematics of large Dendrobates from the eastern Guiana Shield (Amphibia-Dendrobatidae) . Copeia (4) 623-629

Wollenberg K. C, *S. Lötters*, C. Mora-Ferrer, M. Veith Disentangling composite colour patterns in a poison frog species (2008). Biological Journal of the Linnean Society 93(3):433-444

I'll spare you some embarrassment. Before you seize upon the fact that names for populations are described as "Trivial names" in at least one of these publications, you should probably look up "trivial name" or "trivial epithet" as they relate to the field of taxonomy.


----------



## Moriko

oldlady25715 said:


> Just when you thought it couldn't get more asinine.


What I've learned from some people in this hobby is that when you don't think it can get any worse...wait 5 minutes.


----------



## carola1155

oh and given the reputation they have for themselves already... who is to say that they are to actually be trusted in evenly splitting all of the offspring of these "breeding projects" with you? They could say "oh yea we only got a few viable eggs" and be sitting on 30 of your frogs for their own collection.


----------



## Moriko

carola1155 said:


> oh and given the reputation they have for themselves already... who is to say that they are to actually be trusted in evenly splitting all of the offspring of these "breeding projects" with you? They could say "oh yea we only got a few viable eggs" and be sitting on 30 of your frogs for their own collection.


I thought the exact same thing. I can totally see them saying (3 months and 100 eggs later) that there was no breeding that occurred.


----------



## frogface

I think they just want access to more bodies for their Frankenfrogs.


----------



## edwardsatc

Noe they've changed their "expert resources" page again. References to Lotters and the picture of the page in the book have been removed.

Expert Understanding

No worries. I've got captures of both


----------



## aspidites73

OMG....somebody call the NAACP!





carola1155 said:


> hey guys look... I found this great website that is selling "Colored Frogs" !!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These frogs actually have... COLORS!!!
> 
> 
> On a more serious note... I can see what they are trying to do here and it is pretty elementary. "if we call the normal frogs common frogs... and then our hybrids "premium" frogs.... we will make money!!!"
> 
> It kinda reminds me of this (for you south park fans out there):


----------



## toksyn

Careful, they trademarked Color. 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

aspidites73 said:


> OMG....somebody call the NAACP!


That has already changed too. Now it's "classic" colored frogs. Seems something on the site changes every hour. At least we're keeping them busy


----------



## Gamble

frogfreak said:


> Help #2
> "Go-to-Market" Program
> This a great program for new breeders, and anyone breeding the frogs we sell. If you buy our frogs and successfully breed them, we have a built in very low cost marketplace for you to sell your froglet offspring online alongside ours. We provide this service to promote the expansion of dart frog ownership and responsible commerce, and offer an alternate marketplace for all. In fact, our wholesale contacts may want some frogs from you and may become their partner breeder we need! We can help you post your frogs for sale and enable the drop ship function. If a customer buys, you handle the transaction and delivery details, and we simply clear and disperse the funds into your account. This program is very streamlined.
> 
> Community Helps


So basically besides creating & distributing hybrids, they want to become the paypal of hybrid frogs essentially becoming their own DB marketplace & collecting a fee to do so.

Therefore, giving those people who actually want hybrids, safe haven to do so, insulated from the rest of the hobby ... effectively creating an alternate market.

For shame.

The day we all have tried so hard to prevent is at our doorstep ... and what's scary is all it takes is one person to succeed ... as we all know.

Welcome to us having two different sides to our hobby now ... 
The Hybridizers & the Naturalists.


----------



## LoganR

aspidites73 said:


> OMG....somebody call the NAACP!]


Wouldn't that be the NAACF(rogs).

Hey maybe we can trademark NAACF and rename dendroboard. It's no less ridiculous that what they are doing.


----------



## edwardsatc

aspidites73 said:


> You should see all he has had, or does have trademarked. Most are simple words.. Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia
> 
> Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia
> 
> Trademark application for US Dart Frogs: US DART FROG - Reviews & Brand Information - Rick Wascher Waukesha, WI - Serial Number: 85875500


The trademarks for SaFe and CoLor were applied for in July 2012. So, they've been planning this for some time.

Enough time to know full well how designer frogs would be received by the hobby.


----------



## Trickishleaf

Last I checked, Dendrobatids do not operate on simple mendelian genetically (correct me if I'm wrong), making this statement utter nonsense:

"We look for the lineal progression of seemingly dominant traits and conformation (e.g., size and stature), and knowing which recessive traits are most likely to thrive anywhere. "


Sounds like a BP forum. Blegh. 

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


----------



## markpulawski

Just ordered my..."Baby Jesus Tinc Pak", hope it gets here in time for Christmas.


----------



## Halter

What upsets even more:

It seems they are trying to make our hobby like leopard geckos or ball pythons, and it sickens me. The fact they are trying to cross locales and make "new designer frogs" sounds like a ball python breeder trying to find a new designer morph...Really makes me sick.

These frogs are beautiful enough, they do not need to be genetically altered(so to speak) to be beautiful. I really just dont get the whole thought process behind it.

I *hope *they crash and burn.


----------



## frogparty

You should have gotten the "gold, frankinsence and myrrh", leucomelas pack they were offering and made a really nice mixed tank display


----------



## edwardsatc

Trickishleaf said:


> Last I checked, Dendrobatids do not operate on simple mendelian genetically (correct me if I'm wrong), making this statement utter nonsense:
> 
> "We look for the lineal progression of seemingly dominant traits and conformation (e.g., size and stature), and knowing which recessive traits are most likely to thrive anywhere. "


I can just picture them drawing little Punnet's squares ...

And "knowing which recessive traits are likely to thrive anywhere" ? WTF? I'm almost speechless. In light of the fact that they don't even seem to know the difference between hybridization and sterilization, this may be a bit over their head (to put it politely). Not even someone who works very closely in the science would make such a preposterous claim.

The juxtaposition of the imaginary wealth of knowledge and the reality of total ignorance is comical.


----------



## frogparty

frogparty said:


> You should have gotten the "gold, frankinsence and myrrh", leucomelas pack they were offering and made a really nice mixed tank display


I mean a " mixed manger" display


----------



## curlykid

Way too much, way too fast. I feel bad that Dillon and his Father have wasted their time on this failed business venture.


----------



## frogface

curlykid said:


> Way too much, way too fast. I feel bad that Dillon and his Father have wasted their time on this failed business venture.


I felt bad until I realized that they did not care about the damage they are causing.


----------



## Firawen

frogparty said:


> I mean a " mixed manger" display


Next thing you know they'll be selling Parus as "Jesus Christ Frogs"

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## Giga

I drank a whoe pot a coffee reading this thread, I'm a noobie and I would never try anything like this. I feel bad for the frogs ands not for the people-that bad?


----------



## edwardsatc

Firawen said:


> Next thing you know they'll be selling Parus as "Jesus Christ Frogs"
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


I say "Jesus Christ" every time I read something new on their website!


----------



## whitethumb

if they're going to throw away all this money on patents and copyrights, they should at least donate some of it to tesoros de colombia. i wonder who's bright idea was it to come up with assigning the frogs age to a "q" followed by a #. i know its been brought up before but its dumb, like the rest of their site.


----------



## Moriko

> Very soon we will introduce a full line of exotic pet products, and our incredibly gorgeous, premium, easy care, ARTfrog™ pets found nowhere else in the world!


This is from their home page. I can not feel bad for anyone who has been a member of forums, knows the struggle our hobby has with keeping hybrid frogs away, and still has the audacity to have this business plan after all of the feedback they've been given.


----------



## edwardsatc

So, they also advertise their frogs as "perfectly" healthy. In light of the current discussions on frog pathogens and disease, does anyone know if Fart Dog Airhouse is testing their thousands of frogs?

It seems to me that as the number of frogs housed in a facility increases the risk of infection increases.

Maybe there is no correlation, but I'd hate to see someone's designer frog make an early arrival at St. Peters gate due to a lack of testing and proper quarantine


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

epiphytes etc. said:


> Maybe you should send them your new frogs, you know, help them out.


Thanks, I just nose barfed a bit of my coke.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogface said:


> OMG... omg... pull me back from that ledge. Too, too tempting.


I'll pay the shipping.


----------



## JPccusa

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Thanks, I just nose barfed a bit of my coke.


Also known as snork.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

edwardsatc said:


> Fart Dog Airhouse


Way more family friendly than my nick name for them


----------



## edwardsatc

Now they seem to be making a stronger pitch for middlemen to hide behind. From the website:

"WANTED! SAFE™ DART FROG DEALERS, DISTRIBUTORS, INDEPENDENT SALES REPS"

As quickly as they keep changing their website in response to the forums, it makes me want to have a bit of fun and complain about random crap on the website.


----------



## JeremyHuff

I got a group of oyapok from their initial offering when they were only offering about 40 adult frogs. I am a bit worried my oyapok aren't 100% oyapok.


----------



## frogface

JeremyHuff said:


> I got a group of oyapok from their initial offering when they were only offering about 40 adult frogs. I am a bit worried my oyapok aren't 100% oyapok.


Oh no. It's started already. Get a guarantee, such as it would be. They need to know that these frogs are worthless to you if they are mixed.


----------



## edwardsatc

edwardsatc said:


> Now they seem to be making a stronger pitch for middlemen to hide behind. From the website:
> 
> "WANTED! SAFE™ DART FROG DEALERS, DISTRIBUTORS, INDEPENDENT SALES REPS"
> 
> As quickly as they keep changing their website in response to the forums, it makes me want to have a bit of fun and complain about random crap on the website.


I'll give them one thing ---- they're quick. A few minutes after I posted this, it disappeared from the home page. Now I'm starting to have fun.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

JeremyHuff said:


> I got a group of oyapok from their initial offering when they were only offering about 40 adult frogs. I am a bit worried my oyapok aren't 100% oyapok.


There is also a feedback on their testimonials page from Bill Finley in response to getting Oyapok. Not sure if it is the Bill Finley.


----------



## frogfreak

edwardsatc said:


> I'll give them one thing ---- they're quick. A few minutes after I posted this, it disappeared from the home page. Now I'm starting to have fun.


Hmmm, I can't help but think this whole thing could be a hoax. Hope so...

Why keep changing the site? They clearly don't care about the hobby in general. So why make the changes?


----------



## Azurel

Just be careful of what you say...Knowing there is a lawyer and how unscrupulous they can be I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't papers that get drawn up....just saying. There has already been shown that very little can be trusted.


----------



## Ghost vivs

I don't think it's a hoax,unfortunately.

I have a hunch why dARTFROGWHOREHOUSE keeps changing their dot com... reality is setting in. 



Casper





frogfreak said:


> Hmmm, I can't help but think this whole thing could be a hoax. Hope so...
> 
> Why keep changing the site? They clearly don't care about the hobby in general. So why make the changes?


----------



## Halter

But why the changes if they do not care about our opinion

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


----------



## frogfreak

Halter said:


> But why the changes if they do not care about our opinion


I was thinking they were trolling, but may be WAY off. I have no idea why someone would do this!


----------



## easternversant

edwardsatc said:


> Noe they've changed their "expert resources" page again. References to Lotters and the picture of the page in the book have been removed.
> 
> Expert Understanding
> 
> No worries. I've got captures of both


Did anyone happen to get screen captures of them proclaiming that their frogs are perfectly safe? That seems to have disappeared since I and others commented on how that is false. It'd still be nice to have for future reference...


----------



## Halter

frogfreak said:


> I was thinking they were trolling, but may be WAY off. I have no idea why someone would do this!


Yeah...i like how our issues arnt addressed but their website changes. Makes no sense to me (-.-)

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## Ghost vivs

Deniability and $$$. 

Casper

Edit: We can't forget we are not the original market they were trying to sell to. Once Petco and the others said no they had to come up with plan B. The hobby... that's why they had to legitimize to us what crosses and hybrids they already produced, not Petco... 

Casper



Halter said:


> Yeah...i like how our issues arnt addressed but their website changes. Makes no sense to me (-.-)
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


----------



## JeremyHuff

ZookeeperDoug said:


> There is also a feedback on their testimonials page from Bill Finley in response to getting Oyapok. Not sure if it is the Bill Finley.


About a week ago, Dillon asked for a testimonial from me. I sensed bigger problems ahead. Glad I didn't reply.


----------



## JayMillz

JeremyHuff said:


> I got a group of oyapok from their initial offering when they were only offering about 40 adult frogs. I am a bit worried my oyapok aren't 100% oyapok.


Get some fecals tested soon. For all the healthiness they preach, it would be a shame for something common like hookworm to show up. That would look good on the feedback. I hope personally for your own sake they come back clean, but at the same time, I hope for Ricks sake that some false advertising evidence is produced. *paging Dr. Frye*


----------



## JeremyHuff

They are now called ARTfrogs. Changing the name of the whole group? Next i guess they will get rid of Dendrobates or perhaps 'frog'. 

At the top of the page it still says 100% non toxic and completely harmless.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I've already said most about all I have to say (at this time) here and on DD, but man this is just sad. So I'll just add this here given the burst of new replies...

While I applaud the family for supporting their son's ambition, they've all gone about it in a disrespectful and sleezy way (To the hobby).

If they just wanted to sell healthy CB frogs without out all the marketing BS or designer frog plans I'd be fine with it all. I'd even be ok with them taking darts mainstream into pet stores if they *went about it right *and made sure the stores had good setups/knowledgeable people and the proper supplies to go with the frogs. 

They wanna introduce some innovative buisness practices? ...I'd be willing to hear them out, give it a chance but not while they flip off the entire hobby in the process. "We're doing what we want... screw you all!" There, they can trademark that too for all I care. 

They could have done this so much better. Right now it just smacks of disrespectful money grab.


----------



## edwardsatc

JayMillz said:


> Get some fecals tested soon. For all the healthiness they preach, it would be a shame for something common like hookworm to show up. That would look good on the feedback. I hope personally for your own sake they come back clean, but at the same time, I hope for Ricks sake that some false advertising evidence is produced. *paging Dr. Frye*


Or ranavirus, or chytrid. I'll give you one guess as to whom he has bought some of his frogs from. He left feedback for that breeder here on DB.


----------



## JayMillz

edwardsatc said:


> Or ranavirus, or chytrid. I'll give you one guess as to whom he has bought some of his frogs from. He left feedback for that breeder here on DB.


Fuuuuuuuuu.......


----------



## frogface

edwardsatc said:


> Or ranavirus, or chytrid. I'll give you one guess as to whom he has bought some of his frogs from. He left feedback for that breeder here on DB.


If that's the case, then I expect the problem will take care of itself.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> Or ranavirus, or chytrid. I'll give you one guess as to whom he has bought some of his frogs from. He left feedback for that breeder here on DB.


Well well well.....


----------



## Cfrog

I am going to trademark the term "psychedelic frog" "disco ball frog" and "Froginsten"


----------



## Cfrog

Competition for food happens regardless of tank size or food availability. I lost a froglet to food bullying in a 30gal tank with lots of hiding spots and plenty of food. There is the stress factor too. As far as the whole religious thing, as with any group it only takes a few nuts yelling at the top of their lungs to make a whole group look bad.


----------



## Ghost vivs

My free swabs offer does not apply to businesses! 

Hay Rick, I'll sell you each swab for .80¢… wait... you have like 10,000 SAFE™ frogs!

I'm in the money, I'm in money...


But in all seriousness,

Casper





frogface said:


> If that's the case, then I expect the problem will take care of itself.


----------



## edwardsatc

Yesterday - Dartfrogwarehouse
Earlier today - Artfrogwarehouse
Within the last hour - FrogWarehouse


----------



## toksyn

Seriously though, is someone taking screenshots with timestamps?


----------



## edwardsatc

toksyn said:


> Seriously though, is someone taking screenshots with timestamps?


Yep. There are a couple of us taking screen shots.


----------



## Bcs TX

I looked over his posts and am not seeing alot of breeding pairs purchased to produce the tads/ juveniles he is claiming "were bred by them" If you sold pairs, froglets, tads to these idiots please do the right thing and contact them. Honestly I am beyond pissed off, if these were my frogs sold to these idiots I would be on their doorstep or calling them daily. As far as "safe" goes on one hand they purchased frogs from the wrong vendor, the rest is a toss up. Ready for them to "lick every frog in their collection" to show how "safe" they are.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Just a thought, could be a concerted effort here. If most of the bad name recognition occurs early on and was associated with references to DartFrogWarehouse, it may have been their intention all along to use frogwarehouse. Someone with a good understanding of how internet searches work, might have thought of this and could have started with DartfrogWarehouse to begin with on purpose.


----------



## JJuchems

Well my town was the live broadcast for NBC Nightly News last night for the tornado damage. Maybe I should try out the "One Hop" "only commercial seller of captive bred dart frogs able to ship throughout the entire year, all fifty-two (52) weeks"


----------



## Pumilo

JJuchems said:


> Well my town was the live broadcast for NBC Nightly News last night for the tornado damage. Maybe I should try out the "One Hop "only commercial seller of captive bred dart frogs able to ship throughout the entire year, all fifty-two (52) weeks"


I'm placing my order on Christmas Eve.


----------



## CJW

I feel I should reiterate if he is reading this so carefully

"Trivial" is in reference to the Common name, a valid descriptor of a taxa. The reference is marginalizing the content of the names, not the taxa themselves. So a true sip may just be a trivial name, but it is a descriptor for a small known population in a real jungle. If you cannot google where, it is not because it arose through line breeding. It is because those who know are wise enough not to put it on the internet. If the market decides they look better crossed with a regina, than bam there goes captive populations of true sips. Give it another few years, guess what the market will want back? Then there you go, it becomes profitable again to smuggle true... true sips. Just an example. 

Hog island boas are a timely example, considered to be extinct in the wild but common in the pet trade due to their small size. Many of these are hybridized and have traits of other island boas. Breeders of these species are under pressure to track lineage, or lose this species forever.

Maybe I am being naive and Rick very well knows all of this by now, but I just want to be clear. You cannot word yourself around this hobby to avoid the issue because the hobby is not creating the issue, it is the fact that these are collected locale specific frogs and not man made crosses like leopard geckos/ball pythons. If you market these locale crossed frogs, you are spreading misinformation. You must by now see that there are many who will make a concerted effort to get this correct information to the consumer first so that they have an informed opinion on what they are buying.


----------



## Firawen

About FrogWarehouse's (or whatever they are called now) frogs being 100% non toxic... I remember reading or hearing somewhere that terribilis actually produce some toxins on their own and will secrete them if poked and prodded enough. Not deadly, but unpleasant to say the least. Anyone have anything to back that up?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## frogparty

Yeah some alkaloids and interesting peptides are still produced


----------



## CJW

I'd hate to see what would happen if a dog or a cat ate an escapee...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

frogparty said:


> Yeah some alkaloids and interesting peptides are still produced


Good to know, I have a neighbor that`s really pissing me off.

John


----------



## easternversant

Firawen said:


> About FrogWarehouse's (or whatever they are called now) frogs being 100% non toxic... I remember reading or hearing somewhere that terribilis actually produce some toxins on their own and will secrete them if poked and prodded enough. Not deadly, but unpleasant to say the least. Anyone have anything to back that up?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk





frogparty said:


> Yeah some alkaloids and interesting peptides are still produced


I've never heard of this. Some frogs can 'upconvert' alkaloids to more toxic derivatives, but I've never heard of a dendrobatid synthesizing alkaloids de novo. The only poison frog I know that can do that is _Pseudophryne_. 

If you have citations for other stuff (i.e., real science) pm me the link please.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Good morning ladies and gents.

Today's over/under for website name changes is 2.5


----------



## aspidites73

I'll put 1 "SAFE" tadpole, 2 "Classic Colored" Leucomelas, and a whole site full of BS on the OVER, please!



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Good morning ladies and gents.
> 
> Today's over/under for website name changes is 2.5


----------



## dgibbons1

So i spent most of yesterday reading this thread. After i was done i was at a loss of words as what to say. Now that i have had some time and even surfed around dartfrog... i mean artfrog..umm Frogwarehouse i dont see how anyone that would want to get into this wonderful hobby would buy from them. Im pretty knew to the Dart frog world but i would imagine (hope) that people would do some research on the basic species they would want to care for. When you only find one reference for the type of species you are looking for and its from that one site would hope red flags start going off. Also when you go to buy your frogs and the site changes from hour to hour its crazy! I feel bad for everyone that takes care of frogs the right way and how quick this could destroy the morphs we have all known and love. It baffles me how anyone could think its right to mix species/morphs and think oh its no big deal.. if the offspring is viable it must be ok. I could go on so many rants right now but i think i will just leave it at that for now


----------



## joshbaker14t

Just ordered my Q3-M9 sunbees. Does anyone have a Q4-M12 neon they could ship to me on a breeder loan. Hoping for some Q1-M1 neo-bees soon!! This is way less confusing...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


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## Sticky Fingers

They carefully and thoroughly studied the wild ancestors of our totally harmless colored frogs, and are the driving force behind our gorgeous, equally harmless, ARTfrogs premium lines unique to us! As such, we consider ourselves schooled by the masters, i.e., Lotters et al.

Man these people are insane... Im not sure if this has been brought up since this thread is moving fast. But the line that says " Premium lines unique to us". Are those unique lines their hybrids?


----------



## Firawen

Sticky Fingers said:


> They carefully and thoroughly studied the wild ancestors of our totally harmless colored frogs, and are the driving force behind our gorgeous, equally harmless, ARTfrogs premium lines unique to us! As such, we consider ourselves schooled by the masters, i.e., Lotters et al.
> 
> Man these people are insane... Im not sure if this has been brought up since this thread is moving fast. But the line that says " Premium lines unique to us". Are those unique lines their hybrids?


I believe so.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## frogparty

easternversant said:


> I've never heard of this. Some frogs can 'upconvert' alkaloids to more toxic derivatives, but I've never heard of a dendrobatid synthesizing alkaloids de novo. The only poison frog I know that can do that is _Pseudophryne_.
> 
> If you have citations for other stuff (i.e., real science) pm me the link please.


Let me find the literature. I'm not talking about the complex highly toxic alkaloids, but let me find the paper to clarify better.


----------



## aspidites73

Dillon and rick's frogs is wayyyy too cumbersome to say. Maybe, just maybe, we should in some way combine their names together to make it descriptive and easy to remember. How about:
Rillon....nah, just as difficult
Dilick....nah
Ricon....doesn't quite roll off the tongue right
Hmmmmmm it should probably be limited to 4 letters. We all know 4 letter words are quite popular, right?

Still thinking.......................oh, I know. 

Edit: so, let's make it official ........they are now SAFE (tm) @!c% dart frogs. Imagine the marketing potential!


----------



## epiphytes etc.

D**k SAFE™ Wh*rehouse. I like it!


----------



## Dane

Does the "ART" in ARTfrog stand for Amphibian Reclassification and Trademarking?


----------



## Bcs TX

My guess is they are changing their website name to prevent google searches from finding this and other threads.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Dane said:


> Does the "ART" in ARTfrog stand for Amphibian Reclassification and Trademarking?


More like Arrogant Reckless Troll.


----------



## markpulawski

So looking over their site again, I see Classic dart frogs which I am sure means the current morphs in the hobby, I don't see anything that would declare these to be anything but the morphs we know they are, so Jeremy I think your Oyopok would be safe to assume they are indeed Oyopok. They have quite a few standard morph darts on their site, many of which carry the names we refer to them as and a few still have the ridiculous names they have likely trademarked, patented and tattooed on each child in the family.
One can assume the Artfrogs are the mixed morph creations they have yet to unleash, god I hope they realize what a mistake it would be to distribute them. Perhaps seeing the reaction from the community can sway them, let's hope we do hear from them.....maybe Dillon can comment so some truth can come out? I can't imagine he would enjoy being the most hated person in the animal industry he wants to work in, would he?


----------



## frogface

I wish Dillon had spent more time on DB reading and learning about dart frogs, rather than shopping and buying. I would love to have another young, enthusiastic frogger in the community, but, this isn't the way to do it


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Are D**Kfrogs safe to lick?
Can I put D**Kfrogs in my mouth or any other oriface?


----------



## dgibbons1

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Are D**Kfrogs safe to lick?
> Can I put D**Kfrogs in my mouth or any other oriface?


I dont see why not... they are SAFE


----------



## Ed

Firawen said:


> About FrogWarehouse's (or whatever they are called now) frogs being 100% non toxic... I remember reading or hearing somewhere that terribilis actually produce some toxins on their own and will secrete them if poked and prodded enough. Not deadly, but unpleasant to say the least. Anyone have anything to back that up?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


See the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## carola1155

I really don't understand this bit:

"We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"

what point are they trying to make?


----------



## Julio

carola1155 said:


> i really don't understand this bit:
> 
> "we are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
> We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"
> 
> what point are they trying to make?


why are they advertising themselves on a hobby forum?


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> I really don't understand this bit:
> 
> "We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
> We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"
> 
> what point are they trying to make?


I believe this was a statement added to distance themselves from the heat they are taking in the hobby forums.


----------



## aspidites73

Yesterday, I googled 'safe dart frogs' and dfw was on the first page, near the bottom. I just googled it again and the thread I started on safe dart frogs is on page one and dfw was bumped to page 2!!!! keep it up guys and gals!


----------



## oldlady25715

carola1155 said:


> I really don't understand this bit:
> 
> "We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
> We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"
> 
> what point are they trying to make?


That would be the proverbial middle finger pointing up at us. Saying they don't care what we think. 

We'll see if Knowledge Center or whatever petstore they were going to sell to cares...anyone call them yet to educate them about the current and historical principals and practices of the dart frog hobby that frog whorehouse has chosen to ignore?


----------



## kitcolebay

*DartFrogWarehouse.com now open!*

It may also be their attempt to say they're not even a part of a hobby that we claim they're ruining. After all, from a lawyers point of view, how can they ruin something if they're not even a part of it?


----------



## FroggyKnight

kitcolebay said:


> It may also be their attempt to say they're not even a part of a hobby that we claim they're ruining. After all, from a lawyers point of view, how can they ruin something if they're not even a part of it?


That is a very sad attempt then. They may not consider themselves "part of the hobby" but they still have a direct influence on it. That influence is not good in the slightest.


----------



## hydrophyte

Apparently they also have no respect at all for English grammar and syntax.



> Our company name is USA Frog and our store name is Dart Frog Warehouse. USA Frog is owned by three brothers, and operated by the entire family. Our God given passion for these colorful frogs is the reason we all excel at what we do, and why we do it. In fact, frogs are all we do, and we are experts. We all work as a team to expertly breed and raise all of our frogs and tads with the best care possible. Accordingly, each of us is a frog specialist, not a frog hobbyist. We are all professionals and require professionalism.


This sounds like somebody waving his own kids around like human shields:



> Each of us individually has primary responsibility, and in charge of, at least one important function to our success. For example, our daughter Darbie (age 11) prepares the tadpole cups for Dillon, our genius breeder. Devin & Daly produce all of our cultures and feed frogs everyday. Mom and Dad help out where needed, and keep the wolves at bay!


That's classy.


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> I really don't understand this bit:
> 
> "We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
> We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"
> 
> what point are they trying to make?


On the bright side, that statement replaces the paragraph of BS interpretation of Lotters.

I sent a few emails to some folks who might know more about that publication than DFW  I suspect that may be why references are being taken down ...


----------



## markpulawski

Genius breeder, this gets sadder by the minute, sounds like they are around the corner from an ATF shoot out......I am guessing up for 72 straight hours so far, constant caffeine ingestion...go on catch that dragon, it's just out of reach....


----------



## JPccusa

Everyone... please remember that we want this thread to remain open and public.


----------



## Gamble

Experts?!! BA HAHAHA ... 
They've been in the hobby for 2 years.

Just from the information on the forums & their website, it's apparent that experts they are not.

Genius son? 
It's not rocket science to breed dendrobates.

[redacted]

The expertise they have is in creating misleading information to further their own goals & agendas at the expense of all of us.


----------



## Jeremiah

Looks like they had to take down the Lotters et al reference and the twisted spin they put on it. 

Im scared to think what they are they gonna try to pull next>?


----------



## edwardsatc

I guess what we should be focusing on now is how we prevent these frogs from entering into the hobby. Can we? Is it too late? Is keeping this in the forefront on forums enough?

I suspect that these frogs will start to be "laundered" through places like LLL and various flippers. They'll start to show up on Kingsnake and no one will no the source or whether they are buying hybrid, unless someone labels them with one of the trademarked terms.

Any ideas?


----------



## frogface

Don't tell them how to launder the frogs


----------



## toksyn

Perhaps it might make sense to have a known network of trusted breeders? I'm afraid this might become exclusive but, if managed properly, could go a long way toward maintaining traceability. 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## toksyn

Like Angie's List. 

Edit: I realize that we do have a review section. I don't fault them for this, but I feel like a bunch of potential newcomers, due to unfamiliarity with the forums, don't read and search on their own (hence so many repeat threads). It might be nice just to have a quick link / list. 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

frogface said:


> Don't tell them how to launder the frogs


I thought about that, but they'll no doubt come to this on their own and I think it's better to get out ahead of the situation rather than deal with it when it happens. This really is a situation that requires a proactive response rather than a reactive one.


----------



## joshbaker14t

toksyn said:


> Like Angie's List.
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


Unfortunately any public forum can be falsified. Word of mouth is the only trustworthy advertising. It's ultimately up to the consumer to care. Therefore people who do care won't but from then. Which should leave the hobby in general unaffected imo.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

I would hope everyone would let them know what you think about mixed morph, hybrid, and designer frogs here:

Frog Warehouse - Buy Dart Frogs - SAFE - Contact Us


----------



## Dendro Dave

carola1155 said:


> I really don't understand this bit:
> 
> "We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
> We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"
> 
> what point are they trying to make?





Julio said:


> why are they advertising themselves on a hobby forum?





oldlady25715 said:


> That would be the proverbial middle finger pointing up at us. Saying they don't care what we think.
> 
> We'll see if Knowledge Center or whatever petstore they were going to sell to cares...anyone call them yet to educate them about the current and historical principals and practices of the dart frog hobby that frog whorehouse has chosen to ignore?


Ya, this looks like them trying to distance themselves from us and obtain some kind of "exempt" status. 

Sorry but Dart frogs are the foundation for the Dart frog hobby. *If you are selling Dart frogs you are in the hobby* (whether we want you in it or not  ) 

You have a responsibility to the community you will be effecting with your business practices and a moral imperative to respect their culture/ethics... And not to BS them or the companies you'll be reselling through and their customers. 

You may not feel it is BS, but obviously you are in the minority here, and it is time to admit you went about all of this in the wrong way. Frankly it is probably your only hope of salvaging any kinda buisness, more likely just getting back most/some of your investment because you've turned most of the "core hobby" and the most influential voices in that hobby against you. *Not a smart business plan.*


----------



## frogparty

Ed said:


> See the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html#post150012
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed. I was searching for a specific paper outlining the peptides and more simplistic alkaloids that captive dendrobatids produce. 
Frog peptides can be extremely interesting! See Dermorphin!!


----------



## Dale D

edwardsatc said:


> I would hope everyone would let them know what you think about mixed morph, hybrid, and designer frogs here:
> 
> Frog Warehouse - Buy Dart Frogs - SAFE - Contact Us


From their site.
"Of course, we are always here to chat with you at any time. 901-491-9145"


----------



## Brian317

They could care less about the educated hobbyists or forum members and I feel they are not the target. They want to prey on the noobs out there who don't know better and don't know anything about dart frogs. I find that pathetic and sad. They claim to be experts and how they have safe frogs, when it is FAR from the truth. Prove to me how safe your frogs really are. This entire ordeal is asinine. I HOPE this is just a giant troll, but I really don't think it is. Just some guy who THINKS they just found an underground goldmine and will attempt to destroy the town above it to pad their own pockets. (bad example, but yeah...)


----------



## JeremyHuff

A testimonial from their site:
"I bought 7 Super Blue Auratus Frogs, and asked for a variety of colors and patterns. I ended up getting Green, Aqua Blue, and a darker Blue, plus some of them are more reticulated, and others are more of the camo design. I was very amazed. These frogs are very beautiful. Thanks Dart Frog Warehouse!"

I wonder if this guy just got 7 morphs of auratus instead of 7 super blues???


----------



## joshbaker14t

Sounds like a bogus testimonial all together...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## Brian317

JeremyHuff said:


> I wonder if this guy just got 7 morphs of auratus instead of 7 super blues???


Sounds like it...but I just don't trust anything on that site.


----------



## Gamble

joshbaker14t said:


> Sounds like a bogus testimonial all together...
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


I thought the same about all of their reviews until I saw Bill Finleys name attached to one.


----------



## aspidites73

Gamble said:


> I thought the same about all of their reviews until I saw Bill Finleys name attached to one.


Has anyone contacted Bill (someone who knows him, preferably) and asked him if:
1: he did, in fact, do the testimonial and
2: he is aware of the current, and ongoing situation surrounding them?


----------



## oldlady25715

JeremyHuff said:


> A testimonial from their site:
> "I bought 7 Super Blue Auratus Frogs, and asked for a variety of colors and patterns. I ended up getting Green, Aqua Blue, and a darker Blue, plus some of them are more reticulated, and others are more of the camo design. I was very amazed. These frogs are very beautiful. Thanks Dart Frog Warehouse!"
> 
> I wonder if this guy just got 7 morphs of auratus instead of 7 super blues???


Do super blues even have anything close to this level of variation? I think this discredits the regular lines they are selling. It sounds like they are reaching into the bathtub full of different auratus and grabbing a handful of Costa Ricans, blue auratus, super blues, camo etc. I hope they haven't already mixed the locales together and will just sell whatever to spite us.


----------



## whitethumb

they probably don't know what's what. they probably don't have labels on anything. just reached their hands in a tub and grabbed some frogs. pretty sad


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Dale D said:


> From their site.
> "Of course, we are always here to chat with you at any time. 901-491-9145"


This could be fun.


----------



## Azurel

ZookeeperDoug said:


> This could be fun.


Just be careful.....don't want to give them any fuel to get back at any of us.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

oldlady25715 said:


> Do super blues even have anything close to this level of variation? I think this discredits the regular lines they are selling. It sounds like they are reaching into the bathtub full of different auratus and grabbing a handful of Costa Ricans, blue auratus, super blues, camo etc. I hope they haven't already mixed the locales together and will just sell whatever to spite us.


Nothing in that testimonial is outside the realm of possibility with super blue auratus.


----------



## Azurel

epiphytes etc. said:


> Nothing in that testimonial is outside the realm of possibility with super blue auratus.


And nothing in that testimonial says it wasn't a dendrobates grab bag either....but I thought the same thing....but trust and benefit of the doubt they are not deserving....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Azurel said:


> Just be careful.....don't want to give them any fuel to get back at any of us.


Lol, like what?

Ok seriously though, I'd try to responsibly reason with them. I really think some local froggers should show up at their facility and speak with them, again responsibly. It's easy for them to be dismissive and disrespectful online, but face to face with concerned hobbyists, I think they'd be more polite and inclined to listen.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Oh, I'm not trying to stand up for them in any way, just stating the facts.


----------



## Azurel

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Lol, like what?
> 
> Ok seriously though, I'd try to responsibly reason with them. I really think some local froggers should show up at their facility and speak with them, again responsibly. It's easy for them to be dismissive and disrespectful online, but face to face with concerned hobbyists, I think they'd be more polite and inclined to listen.


LoL....Who knows there is a lawyer involved. I don't trust them unless I'm paying them...


----------



## Azurel

epiphytes etc. said:


> Oh, I'm not trying to stand up for them in any way, just stating the facts.


Oh I know.....That's why I said I thought the samething as well.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Azurel said:


> LoL....Who knows there is a lawyer involved. I don't trust them unless I'm paying them...


I guess I don't share the same fear of lawyers as some.


----------



## Scott

Regarding Bill Finley / Super Blue Auratas.

I can't even imagine 1) Bill being interested in those and 2) Why he would NOT get them from the person who lives within 30 miles of him, that has sold Super Blue Auratas quite often.

And yes, I do know Bill Finley fairly well - haven't talked to him lately though.

s


----------



## frogface

Scott said:


> Regarding Bill Finley / Super Blue Auratas.
> 
> I can't even imagine 1) Bill being interested in those and 2) Why he would NOT get them from the person who lives within 30 miles of him, that has sold Super Blue Auratas quite often.
> 
> And yes, I do know Bill Finley fairly well - haven't talked to him lately though.
> 
> s


I think it's time you and Bill got caught up.


----------



## Azurel

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I guess I don't share the same fear of lawyers as some.


I don't fear anyone.... distrust is what Im talking about in the sense of the type we have seen in these previous post on here and DD....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> Regarding Bill Finley / Super Blue Auratas.
> 
> I can't even imagine 1) Bill being interested in those and 2) Why he would NOT get them from the person who lives within 30 miles of him, that has sold Super Blue Auratas quite often.
> 
> And yes, I do know Bill Finley fairly well - haven't talked to him lately though.
> 
> s


Bill's Testimony wasn't about the Super Blues. His was for a pair of Oyapok.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Bill got Oyapoks at the same time I did. The frogs are nice but don't quote me on that.


----------



## Scott

Good to hear (you too Doug).

s


JeremyHuff said:


> Bill got Oyapoks at the same time I did. The frogs are nice but don't quote me on that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
> We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!


I love this new gem BTW. Where did they get all their supposed breeder stock or inventory? The hobby of course. Of course they're related to us.


----------



## Scott

We're not in the Lounge, it's not Thunderdome.

Stick to the topic.

Probably some thread cleanup here shortly.

s


----------



## Azurel

Back to topic....

I went to the website about an hour ago and the front page came up with an error....although the sidebars where there, there was no main graphics or pictures....

Hard to keep up with the changes....seems quite unstabile. How can you do business or expect to do business if your randomly changing the site on a whim. That should tell you somethi g right there.... To bad there are gonna be some newer people taken advantage of....

Could also be a way of plausable denile if someone was to come back and say "Well your site said this" they can come back and say no it didn't....how many people take screen shots?... Willing to bet not many.


----------



## toksyn

There are people taking screen shots  



Azurel said:


> Back to topic....
> 
> I went to the website about an hour ago and the front page came up with an error....although the sidebars where there, there was no main graphics or pictures....
> 
> Hard to keep up with the changes....seems quite unstabile. How can you do business or expect to do business if your randomly changing the site on a whim. That should tell you somethi g right there.... To bad there are gonna be some newer people taken advantage of....
> 
> Could also be a way of plausable denile if someone was to come back and say "Well your site said this" they can come back and say no it didn't....how many people take screen shots?... Willing to bet not many.




Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## Azurel

toksyn said:


> There are people taking screen shots
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


I know on here, but I am talking about those that don't know the situation and did business with them....


----------



## JeremyHuff

This is too funny:

Our God given passion for these colorful frogs is the reason we all excel at what we do, and why we do it. In fact, frogs are all we do, and we all work together as a team to breed and raise all of our frogs and tads with the best care possible. *Accordingly, each of us is a frog specialist, not a frog hobbyist*. We do this as work, but what great work it is. *We are all professionals, young and old, and require professionalism, becasue we work to for you, our customers. *Each of us has primary responsibility of at least one important function. For example, Darbie (age 11) prepares the tadpole cups for Dillon, our genius breeder. Devin & Daly produce all of our media, cultures, bean beetles, rice flour larva, etc., and feed frogs everyday. *Mom and Dad help out everywhere, and keep the wolves at bay! *


----------



## frogparty

That makes us the wolves? Awooooooooooooooo!


----------



## Charlie Q

> Buy Dart Frogs > ARRIVE2THRIVE Guarantee
> ARRIVE2THRIVE™
> 
> For all frog devotees [def.: persons greatly devoted to something], young or old (and there is no veteran or newbie status with us), there is nothing quite like opening that frog box after delivery. We want you, our devotee frog friends (DFF's) and valued customers, to have the confidence to know your frogs will be elated to see you when you open their packing box from us. As you take the initial steps to giving them a new home and freedom once again, their happiness should not be relief, but the begining of an attachment and bond to you. Sounds corny I know, but breeding and raising thousands of frogs with the best care and attention like we do, we think we have come to know and sense a lot about these amazingly little beauties!
> 
> Our SAFE™ dart frogs bring joy to people, and we are delighted to deliver it/them to you!Our ONE HOP™ shipping is just one factor in our ARRIVE2THRIVE guarantee. Sure, your frogs get from our hands to yours sooner with much less stress, but they also arrive at ease–ready to hop. Like a young dog after a long car ride, we want your frogs to hop, jump, climb, stretch, exercise, and just plain feel good while seeing you admire how cool they really are...and so the bond begins! Your frogs will thank you for their new home and react appreciatively.
> 
> This passion of ours helps our familar frog friends become your new companions, and you–our new friends too! Your frogs believe they will ARRIVE2THRIVE™, and we do too! Guaranteed! A quick caution though, we recommend waiting to open their individual shipping containers until you get them home and in their new house. Otherwise, you may be chasing jumping frogs around FedEx, your car, or wherever you opened their container(s).
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> The Frog Warehouse Family!


After all that text, I still don't understand what they guarantee. it sounds like they guarantee that the frogs will be happy to see me… Actually i believe it indicates that the frogs "will thank me for their new home"… I'd love to see a frog do that.


----------



## JJuchems

"We are not a hobby company, and have no relation to any hobby group.
We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone!"

I know it was pointed out "why are they posting on hobbyist forums?" And that explains their exit once they did not receive acceptance. But I must point out the Poison Frogs is a hobbyist text. While a wealth of information is provided, cited, and presented the books are design for hobbyist.


----------



## Julio

Based on the website these guys sound like a cult


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Don`t hate me for this but I almost feel sorry for them. I think Kris brought this up about 50 pages back.
How wonderful it must be to have your family involved all together in a business of ANY kind, let alone this one. If they checked the 100`s of pages of info here and talked to even just a few of the many people here who Know what the hell their doing it could have been so much better.
The first thing I did when I got my frogs was download Dart Frogs on my computer and I came up here. Of coarse, I didn`t know at the time this forum would consume my life.
You know it`s bad when even I know what their doing is wrong.
It just could could have been so much better for them, and the worst thing is I don`t think they know or care.
EDIT- They also use the term "colored frogs'' isn`t that kind of racist?

John


----------



## LoganR

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t hate me for this but I almost feel sorry for them.
> John


No reason to hate you for feeling that way. One member is this family business is only 11 years old - I find it hard to hold her responsible for the wrong things this business is doing. Other family members may be similarily misguided by the adults overseeing this operation. However, Dillon the "brilliant expert breeder" is certainly old enough to have read these forums, read the consensus of hobby opinion and come to the conclusion that these practices are simply wrong - even if this is par for the course in corn snake, leopard gecko and ball python breeding.

Trying to excise themselves from the hobby is a lame attempt to separate themselves from the consensus that crossing morphs is wrong. If you are producing dart frogs, you are producing it for the hobby. The only way I see where they would not be part of the hobby is if they were breeding frogs specifically to provide to labs for experimentation - like the breeders who raise the cats and pigs we use for dissections. However, that is not what they are doing.

I hate the fact that I keep coming back to this thread...but I keep coming back because I see the potential damage they may do and because they keep doing something new - almost hourly, it seems. It's mind-boggling.


----------



## kitcolebay

Is this new...? I've only browsed their site a couple times out of morbid curiosity.

"We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone, and have nothing but high praises for the passion of all hobbyist groups! 
We are an exotic pet wholesale company and have no hobby group affiliation or bias, *but we do not sell, and have never sold, variety mixtures within species (Ex.: MALIBU (Azureus) with AURORA (Cobalt)) or cross bred (mixed species) frogs of any kind.* Every frog and tadpole we sell was raised by us from the egg. They are top quality, perfectly healthy, completely harmless, and totally beautiful, always, and we will stand behind and defend this fact as aggressively as needed in the future! Our trademarks designate us as the source of our top quality frogs and tads, and we will continue to us them alongside the hobby names for that reason."

-Chris


----------



## edwardsatc

kitcolebay said:


> Is this new...? I've only browsed their site a couple times out of morbid curiosity.
> 
> "We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone, and have nothing but high praises for the passion of all hobbyist groups!
> We are an exotic pet wholesale company and have no hobby group affiliation or bias, *but we do not sell, and have never sold, variety mixtures within species (Ex.: MALIBU (Azureus) with AURORA (Cobalt)) or cross bred (mixed species) frogs of any kind.* Every frog and tadpole we sell was raised by us from the egg. They are top quality, perfectly healthy, completely harmless, and totally beautiful, always, and we will stand behind and defend this fact as aggressively as needed in the future! Our trademarks designate us as the source of our top quality frogs and tads, and we will continue to us them alongside the hobby names for that reason."
> 
> -Chris


Yes, it's new.

The most interesting line is this:

_"They are top quality, perfectly healthy, completely harmless, disease free, and totally beautiful, always, and we will stand behind and defend this fact as aggressively as needed in the future!"_

I think the lawyer is trying to send out a warning ...


----------



## markpulawski

Chris this is new, if it is true they will not mix different localities of Tincs, Auratus or other species together to create their art frogs...or breed for desirable traits then maybe they got our message. Spouting that locality data etc was nonsense as they had been schooled by the masters certainly told us the opposite. What the father said on DD also espoused mixing localities as part of their research into genetically superior frogs (at least that's kind of what I remember as that site has locked this info away to a members only area, thanks DD for hiding this info from the general public). If keeping locality specific frogs separated and bred as such can be confirmed then good for them and I would almost say disaster averted.
BUT NOT UNTIL THEY COME HERE AND EXPLAIN TO US WHAT HAPPENED AND WHAT THEY WILL BE DOING MOVING FORWARD will I believe this change has been implemented.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

kitcolebay said:


> Is this new...? I've only browsed their site a couple times out of morbid curiosity.
> 
> "We love the frogs and started this family business on that basis alone, and have nothing but high praises for the passion of all hobbyist groups!
> We are an exotic pet wholesale company and have no hobby group affiliation or bias, *but we do not sell, and have never sold, variety mixtures within species (Ex.: MALIBU (Azureus) with AURORA (Cobalt)) or cross bred (mixed species) frogs of any kind.* Every frog and tadpole we sell was raised by us from the egg. They are top quality, perfectly healthy, completely harmless, and totally beautiful, always, and we will stand behind and defend this fact as aggressively as needed in the future! Our trademarks designate us as the source of our top quality frogs and tads, and we will continue to us them alongside the hobby names for that reason."
> 
> -Chris


Yeah, that's new.

First, I had to laugh when they underlined and defend. On their website. Sounds like they're running scared. Any good business wouldnt need to put up threats about defending their products on the front page of their website, but Rick is a lawyer. Forgive him, this litigious nonsense is all he knows. Sad really.

At least though they're trying to distance themselves from the hybridizing nonsense. Of course they say they've never sold variety mixtures, yet we have screenshots of mixed groups of tads for sale. 

Perfectly healthy? Maybe. Well see when someone orders frogs from them and tests them for chytrid, Rana, fecals. They better be pretty damn sure of this claim. And yes, DFW, you're on notice, their are people planning to verify your claims. You better think about each and every frog that goes out your doors from this point forward and be absolutely sure if you're going to make this claim.

Harmless- well that statement is just incredibly foolish. They may not be as toxic as their wild counterparts, but has been posted elsewhere, to call any captive pet safe or harmless is misinformed and detrimental.

I wonder what state labor authorities would think about having an 11year old working? And I'm sure an 11 year old girl really wants to be sitting around making tad cups for her big brothers frog business. /facepalm


----------



## edwardsatc

John, 

I totally agree. I feel bad for them and have defended the them a couple times in this thread. I won't be apologetic to anyone about it and anyone who feels that it's okay to bash children on these forums is just plain wrong.



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t hate me for this but I almost feel sorry for them. I think Kris brought this up about 50 pages back.
> How wonderful it must be to have your family involved all together in a business of ANY kind, let alone this one. If they checked the 100`s of pages of info here and talked to even just a few of the many people here who Know what the hell their doing it could have been so much better.
> The first thing I did when I got my frogs was download Dart Frogs on my computer and I came up here. Of coarse, I didn`t know at the time this forum would consume my life.
> You know it`s bad when even I know what their doing is wrong.
> It just could could have been so much better for them, and the worst thing is I don`t think they know or care.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Looks like they're loosing all research references, Lotters references, etc.

This is quite possibly the most poorly thought out dart frog business venture ever.

Seriously though, I'd love to see this circus show up on Shark Tank.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> John,
> 
> I totally agree. I feel bad for them and have defended the them a couple times in this thread. I won't be apologetic to anyone about it and anyone who feels that it's okay to bash children on these forums is just plain wrong.


Who is bashing children?


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Who is bashing children?


Let's just say that Dillon's name has been mentioned a few times in a not so favorable tone ...

I don't want to start an argument on who is responsible for this mess. I just want to get it resolved and I don't see any point in getting kids involved.


----------



## edwardsatc

Has anyone noticed that a couple of the most vocal opponents of mixing have been silent here? I'm a bit perplexed and disappointed.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> the fact not all frogs sold in the hobbies under the common names are top quality, we will continue to use our trademarks in conjunction with the hobby names.


New change. 

Still attacking the hobby of course. And of course their founding stock had to come from somewhere. They may, unverified, have never sold a frog they didn't produce, but some frog, somewhere laid the eggs to get the tads and froglets that they have. I have it on verifiable authority, that one or more hobby member sold them founding stock. Dillion has left feedback even here for some of the frogs that he purchased from people here. This is of course a hobby association. If DFW claims they don't get wild caught frogs, and have no hobby association, where did their frogs come from? Maybe the Holy Spirit came down with a turkey baster again?


----------



## markpulawski

Actually I mentioned Dillon's name probably more than once, not sure if I bashed him but the genius breeder comment kind of rubbed me wrong. I was hoping Dillon would come back on and comment, he seemed to have more sense than his dad when reading the comments.
I do agree that kids would almost overwhelming have to go along with a parents suggestions whether they agree with them or not. I can't imagine Dillon said to his dad, "hey dad lets trade mark everything" seeing how his father is a trade mark lawyer. Family business is great, hell is a big part of what made this country great but when you buck conventional wisdom and then say I'm going to do it anyway because no one is going to tell me what to do...even if it does go against everyone currently in that arena you are asking for failure and a lot of grief along the way. 
If they have no intention of mixing localities within species I want them to come on here and confirm it. This is a forgiving community and admitting and correcting mistakes usually is the best press anyone can get, let's see if they realize that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

So they claim?



> We have never sold, and chosen not to sell, any varietal mixture within species of any kind (Ex.:


Yet from their tadpole groups for sale....



> We will select four (4) tadpoles of approximately the same age from any of the four varieties, without duplicates!
> Green & Black
> Green & Bronze
> Aqua & Black
> Super Blue (Aqua & Bronze)
> Blue & Black
> Blue & Bronze
> Microspot
> Reticulated
> El Cope
> Highland Bronze


No duplicates. One species, different varieties, a varietal mixture.....


----------



## frogface

If they do not mix locales, and, they stop making unsupportable claims (disease free, harmless, etc) then I would have no problems with them as a frog business. Oh I should add, stop making up science. 

Dillon, come back to DB and emmerse yourself in the hobby as a student. Learn everything you can about keeping and raising PDFs. You will come to understand why we have reacted the way we have. 

There is so much information here from so many very smart and qualified people. Take advantage of it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogface said:


> If they do not mix locales, and, they stop making unsupportable claims (disease free, harmless, etc) then I would have no problems with them as a frog business. Oh I should add, stop making up science.
> 
> Dillon, come back to DB and emmerse yourself in the hobby as a student. Learn everything you can about keeping and raising PDFs. You will come to understand why we have reacted the way we have.
> 
> There is so much information here from so many very smart and qualified people. Take advantage of it.


Agreed, but, his father owes the entire hobby an apology as well. It's clear he is pulling most of the strings, unfortunately.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

edwardsatc said:


> Let's just say that Dillon's name has been mentioned a few times in a not so favorable tone


Dillon is not a child.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Please bear with me I need to say this. The "colored frog racist" comment in my previous post was meant as a joke. One in very poor taste now that I think about it.

John


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> Let's just say that Dillon's name has been mentioned a few times in a not so favorable tone ...
> 
> I don't want to start an argument on who is responsible for this mess. I just want to get it resolved and I don't see any point in getting kids involved.


I'm with Jason on this one... here's a quote from the first page of this thread from his Dad:



> Dillon convinced me to put his first year college money in this and sell the used 2004 Corvette we bought him for graduation based on his 5.0 and a 34/36 on the ACT and 800/800 on SAT biology and math scores to do this business


Unless he graduated early its pretty safe to say he is 18 or older... that is why I disagreed with you slightly about giving him the benefit of the doubt here. It's not like this is frog boy or another one of the younger kids on here. He's a seemingly (very) smart legal adult.

As for the other kids in the family, I agree there is absolutely no reason to bring them into this... Unless maybe you want to voice a disgust with the parents for trying to parade them around on the website to make it look more friendly. Also, it is generally not illegal for minors to work for a family business like this so we can drop that topic too.


----------



## Trickishleaf

This is from an email to a local person.
_
We feel we have the best frogs on the planet! We do not have a store, and we have never met anyone local, as yet. Our location is a business inside of an industrial park, as you might expect for Bartlett. We do not have a retail license at our location presently, but that does not mean we can't have guests. (Our current location is zoned to permit retail sales).

Is there something specific you have in mind, or are you just interested in our business and operations, etc.? Please be aware, if we were to give you a tour, we would require you to sign a confidentiality agreement. We have research, tons of innovation, and projects going on all over the place. (My dad Rick is an experienced corporate IP attorney, and we (our business) are his clients.)_

Something fishy when I have to sign a confidentiality agreement to tour your breeding operation.


----------



## Brian317

Can you please explain this DFW, AFW, FW, or whatever you are called now. You state that you (highlighted):



But then I see:



...and...



You stated that you do not sell or do not attempt to sell species such as "MALIBU" Azureus, but I see you are still offering SUNBEE Leucs and NEON Vittatus. 

The description in the above ads also say "great resale, group tank, etc". To me, seeings as you get 4 different Auratus and you say "group tank", sounds like you are promoting mix species. You just don't sell mixed species yourself. 

Also, do you have any proof that your collection is perfectly healthy and disease free? Seems like a bold statement.


----------



## edwardsatc

> We are an exotic pet wholesale company, and hold high praises for the passions of all hobbyist groups even though we have no hobby group affiliation or bias. We have never sold, and chosen not to sell, any varietal mixture within species of any kind (Ex.: MALIBU (Azureus) with AURORA (Cobalt)), and we do not cross breed (mix species). Every frog and tadpole we sell is within a single species and variety group, and was raised by us from the egg. They are ALL top quality, completely harmless, perfectly healthy, disease free, and totally beautiful, always, AND we will stand behind and defend this fact as aggressively as needed in the future! We have the largest inventory to keep the price low for our customers, plain and simple. In order to establish and maintain consumer recognition of our company as a source of the highest quality, and because not all frogs sold in the hobbies under the common names are top quality, we will continue to use our trademarks in conjunction with the hobby names in order to designate us as the quality source thereof


Okay, so they say they haven't sold any "varietal mixtures". First of all what is their definition of varietal mixture? In the past the claim has been made that "variety" names are "utter nonsense". If you believe that a tinc is a tinc is a tinc, regardless of population, then the claim regarding "varietal mixtures seems to mean nothing. 

Semantics aside, my question is whether they have produced mixed morph frogs. It would seem that this has occured considering what they have stated in the past about their research. What will happen to these frogs?

Then there's the line breeding which they also seem to indicate they've been doing through their "phenotyping studies". I don't think they've ever attempted to address this.

It appears to me that at least some (maybe many) of the frogs that they currently hold in inventory are mixed morph and/or line bred. 

I just don't get the constant changes to the website with undertones that alienate the hobbyists who they need to buy these frogs. Ultimately every frog that leaves their facility will end up in the hands of a hobbyist or future hobbyist. So why not come to the hobbyists and address the concerns? If legitimate changes are being made, why not come here and say so?


----------



## Gamble

Trickishleaf said:


> This is from an email to a local person.
> _
> We feel we have the best frogs on the planet! We do not have a store, and we have never met anyone local, as yet. Our location is a business inside of an industrial park, as you might expect for Bartlett. We do not have a retail license at our location presently, but that does not mean we can't have guests. (Our current location is zoned to permit retail sales).
> 
> Is there something specific you have in mind, or are you just interested in our business and operations, etc.? Please be aware, if we were to give you a tour, we would require you to sign a confidentiality agreement. We have research, tons of innovation, and projects going on all over the place. (My dad Rick is an experienced corporate IP attorney, and we (our business) are his clients.)_
> 
> Something fishy when I have to sign a confidentiality agreement to tour your breeding operation.


They would still have to prove that any "leaked" information came directly from you ... which would be almost impossible considering we all communicate with one another in some form.

Someone should get a tour from them.


----------



## markpulawski

Also if they are providing mixed locality tad packs, they are in all intent telling their customers it is OK to mix localities, again just deferring the inevitable mixed locality frogs were are lobbying so diligently against. This is still very much going down the wrong path.


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> Unless he graduated early its pretty safe to say he is 18 or older... that is why I disagreed with you slightly about giving him the benefit of the doubt here. It's not like this is frog boy or another one of the younger kids on here. He's a seemingly (very) smart legal adult.


This may be true, but until I know for sure, I prefer to err on the side of caution. Many kids graduate from high school at 17 and if his GPA and SAT's are what they say they are, he may have even finished high school earlier.

I'm not trying to portray him as a little angel. I have my own thoughts as to his involvement, but I prefer to keep them to myself, especially since his dad has chosen to be the mouthpiece of the operation. There's a parent who has chosen to represent the business and his family, so I don't see any reason to deal with anyone else.


----------



## frogface

Perhaps this article will come in handy: Caudata Culture Articles - Euthanasia


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Trickishleaf said:


> This is from an email to a local person.
> _
> We feel we have the best frogs on the planet! We do not have a store, and we have never met anyone local, as yet. Our location is a business inside of an industrial park, as you might expect for Bartlett. We do not have a retail license at our location presently, but that does not mean we can't have guests. (Our current location is zoned to permit retail sales).
> 
> Is there something specific you have in mind, or are you just interested in our business and operations, etc.? Please be aware, if we were to give you a tour, we would require you to sign a confidentiality agreement. We have research, tons of innovation, and projects going on all over the place. (My dad Rick is an experienced corporate IP attorney, and we (our business) are his clients.)_
> 
> Something fishy when I have to sign a confidentiality agreement to tour your breeding operation.


And this is the difference between US and THEM. Anyone is always welcome in my frog room. I'll gladly share my knowledge and experience with you. I'm no expert, and neither is anyone claiming they are(or their son). You're also free to share whatever you see or learn from me with others, in fact, that's all I've ever asked, in fact I expect you to. Ask any of the many froggers who have been in my frogroom, iRyan, NMCrawler, Whitethumb. You're never likely to leave empty handed, I'm always sending you off with leaves or cuttings or a tank I trilled for you.

And then comes along this frogmill insulting everything that the hobby is about. Expecting you to sign an NDA to set foot in their facility. They clearly are not interested in helping anyone other than themselves. It sad, because most religious people I've met are caring! generous! and selfless. But not this self described child of god.

Seriously Rick, WWJD?


----------



## phender

Not to defend them, but in this case there could be all sorts of things that they are working on that have nothing to do with frogs. They could be working on vert conversions, tops for vivs., any number of "dry goods" related things that you might not want to get out before you started producing them.




ZookeeperDoug said:


> And this is the difference between US and THEM. Anyone is always welcome in my frog room. I'll gladly share my knowledge and experience with you. I'm no expert, and neither is anyone claiming they are(or their son). You're also free to share whatever you see or learn from me with others, in fact, that's all I've ever asked, in fact I expect you to. Ask any of the many froggers who have been in my frogroom, iRyan, NMCrawler, Whitethumb. You're never likely to leave empty handed, I'm always sending you off with leaves or cuttings or a tank I trilled for you.
> 
> And then comes along this frogmill insulting everything that the hobby is about. Expecting you to sign an NDA to set foot in their facility. They clearly are not interested in helping anyone other than themselves. It sad, because most religious people I've met are caring! generous! and selfless. But not this self described child of god.
> 
> Seriously Rick, WWJD?


----------



## markpulawski

I want to recant that DD hid this info, I went over there to see if Ii could find what Rick wrote and it is on top in the General Discussion Forum, all new info was directed into the members only area which is likely the same type of statements being made here. I sure hope they come back here to address these issues and I would certainly advocate until they do no one will be comfortable with what is going on.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

markpulawski said:


> I want to recant that DD hid this info, I went over there to see if Ii could find what Rick wrote and it is on top in the General Discussion Forum, all new info was directed into the members only area which is likely the same type of statements being made here. I sure hope they come back here to address these issues and I would certainly advocate until they do no one will be comfortable with what is going on.


I've had trouble locating it a couple times over there as well Mark. But it is still there.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

phender said:


> Not to defend them, but in this case there could be all sorts of things that they are working on that have nothing to do with frogs. They could be working on vert conversions, tops for vivs., any number of "dry goods" related things that you might not want to get out before you started producing them.


Maybe. Somehow I seriously doubt it. And even to that point, other vendors have been very forthcoming with new ideas, sharing them with all of us. Take for example Dane of Jungle box. Recently sent out a few new vert slider kits for people to beta test and at a reduced price. Or Allen Repashy with his superfly, which DFW openly insults on their page btw, came to the hobby for input, discussion, etc, unlike DFW with their reinvented FF media and how they blather on about it smelling like unicorn farts.

I seriously doubt these guys are reinventing the wheel.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Most people don't realize this, but unicorn farts smell exactly like an old fruit fly culture.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

epiphytes etc. said:


> Most people don't realize this, but unicorn farts smell exactly like an old fruit fly culture.


You mean all this time I thought a unicorn was sleeping in my frogroom it was just my cultures?


----------



## carola1155

Community Helps

I just stumbled on to that little gem... WOW...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Looks like they're no longer threatening to "DEFEND as *aggressively*as needed"......

Glad you're taking my suggestions to heart Rick. Perhaps you should hire me or someone from this hobby experienced and knowledgable in its norms and practices to consult with you on site design and a business strategy.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

carola1155 said:


> Community Helps
> 
> I just stumbled on to that little gem... WOW...


I'm starting to wonder if we shouldn't just shut up about all the completely stupid quotes, information, false statements, and laughable typos and just leave them up for DFW to miss. I mean there are a dozen gems still up there.

That's the catch 22. Point out the laughable misinformation so new hobbyists don't get burned, or don't mention it and let Rick and his associates wallow in their own mess while we have a good laugh at their mistakes.

My forehead is sore already from all the facepalms.


----------



## Brian317

So, when i clicked on the family hyperlink on the main DFW site, it took me to wascher dot com. When I clicked home on that page, it took me to an alternate DFW home page. It references Lotters, phenotypes, and the such again.

USA Frog - FrogZoo.com

FROGSafe Phenotyping


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Does this claim



> We make 250-300 fly cultures a day/everyday for our own use


Strike anyone as a bit insane? That's 2100 cultures a week. 4200 cultures total if they're discarding them in 2 weeks like they claim. Seems like an awful lot of cultures to be making everyday, but maybe I'm wrong. Seems like even if you made them all at once in a huge batch you'll spend a couple hours making them.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Wascher dot com

OMG, must resist. That site has Thunderdome written all over it.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

wascher.com/images/PetCosts.docx

What the F**K??????


----------



## Bill Finley

Wow, Scott informed me about this post last night, and I stayed up until 1:30 am to read most of it, and then some this afternoon....holy cow!

Well anyway, as you can see, I did buy one male & one female Oyapock form DFW, and to say the least the frogs came in; in good shape and they were the ones I picked out (something I like to do, when buying frogs), they continue to do well as I write this. So, I have no problems with the frogs, so far.

I've had a chance to look over the website, and read the conversations, of most everyone, although I can say I haven't read every reply, so I might have missed some things. 

I'm a little concerned; where did the original breeders come from? There's no mention as to where the original stock of breeders came from, unless I missed that? Seems like a lot of frogs (various ages) and tadpoles for such a new business? As most everyone knows, tinctorius do lay more eggs than pumilio, but in my wildeous dreams never thought you could get that many in such a short time. I'm also worried about the mention of mixing, although, I only caught the end of that post? And everyone is an expert, I've been doing this for over tens years, and I'm by no means an expert yet? And this trade mark stuff, but since I'm no lawyer, I'll let the inform people handle that...lol

I will say they need to correct the items listed by others in this forum, before I'll purchase again.

Thanks,
Bill Finley


----------



## oldlady25715

ZookeeperDoug said:


> wascher.com/images/PetCosts.docx
> 
> What the F**K??????


Whoa. Most people would just make a Facebook page. Is he an attorney or a pastor or a frog expert? It's looks a little prideful to make a website about ones quest for god. Nice lookin family though.


----------



## hydrophyte

oldlady25715 said:


> It's looks a little prideful to make a website about ones quest for god. .


You could also call it _hubris_.


----------



## Dragonfish

hydrophyte said:


> You could also call it _hubris_.


You made me google!


----------



## mjahnke

Dart frogs don't need to be de-wormed or tests for any disease?

I guess that answers if they have tested their animals.


----------



## Dale D

"Our frogs can be kept just about anywhere in your home or office without special needs." 

I'm going to order a bunch and let them go in my living room.


----------



## dgibbons1

Low $100 minimum purchase on frogs, B2B and most repeat customers only, some minimum quantities apply on the most popular varieties, flat rate shipping lowest (or free) based on product total, fly deals and warehousing available, please inquire.



umm ok.....im not entirely sure i know what all that means...


----------



## carola1155

That pet cost calculator is disturbingly inaccurate... 

$3/yr for supplements? please

Thats ALLLL they have for misc costs for a year? Even the fish tank has $15 worth of stuff (which is probably even a bit low). What about electricity for the lights? That's gonna be at least $5-10/yr depending on what type/how many bulbs you have. How bout replacing the bulbs when they go? Don't tell me that $40 set up doesn't have any plants in it because then that tank is going to need more materials and work to clean it and they aren't accounting for that either

They are totally skewing the numbers there to make their pet look favorable. I bet (hope) whatever company they pitch that to saw/will see right through it.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok, I just sent these people an e-mail with my e-mail as a return address asking them very nicely if they could at their convenience (without lurking) check out this thread and try to stop this madness.
They can still have their family business, but the best customers in the world are here, and you can`t just continue to do this to the many people who dedicate their lives for these frogs. Why? Because it seems we care a helluva lot more than you.
I`ll get back to ya when/if I get a reply.

John


----------



## JPccusa

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, I just sent these people an e-mail with my e-mail as a return address asking them very nicely if they could at their convenience (without lurking) check out this thread and try to stop this madness.


DFW may be checking this thread out but they will not be replying.


----------



## carola1155

I wouldn't have high expectations for an email response either... 

Several days ago I sent them one asking (fairly) nicely to change their path to one that would not be damaging to the hobby... no response yet


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ah what the hell, I gave it a shot. Thanks JP.

John


----------



## Brian317

You know they are watching and reading this thread. For saying they are not affiliated with or care about the hobby or hobbyists....they seem to lurk here quite often to see and read what we are sayin!!!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> B2B, Repeat, and pre-Approved Customers Only on Frog sales!


Breeder to breeder, repeat and preapproved customers. Gee, I wonder why? Paranoid much?


----------



## edwardsatc

4-6 month old azureus, tinctorious, and auratus ---> $9.95 to $11.95  Desperate times.

Doh! I almost forgot to get my fly biscuits!


----------



## carola1155

FROGSafe Phenotyping

http://wascher.com/expertunderstanding.html


its baaaaack....


----------



## Ghost vivs

Speechless...


Casper




carola1155 said:


> FROGSafe Phenotyping
> 
> Expert Information
> 
> 
> its baaaaack....


----------



## FroggyKnight

Ok, WHY do they wish to focus on the most dominant traits? Where did they get the idea that dominant traits are better than ressesive? Genetic diversity is THE KEY to having sound genetics. From what I read the frogs they produce will be unnatural and will have a incredible limited gene pool.

Do they happen to know that in humans, some diseases are rare dominant traits? I don't see why this could not be the same for darts, they just haven't been recorded in PROPER studies. EDIT: many of those diseases are fatal, but could take years to show....end EDIT

Please, Dillon, can you answer my questions? I will not burn you! Please remember the hobby should be your biggest ally.


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> FROGSafe Phenotyping
> 
> Expert Information
> 
> 
> its baaaaack....


and USA Frog - FrogZoo.com

So we're back to square one. Their ignorant view of population genetics (and genetics in general) is just incredible. 

Hiding it amongst religious material? Intelligent Design anyone?


----------



## Dragonfish

FlyDoh™ fruit fly media in tubs, rolls, and biscuits!

FlyDoh™ is our unique, soft, premade, no microbe, no methyl paraben (MP), proprietary media. We start with our highest yield proprietary MP-free dry media, add the correct amount of moisture from all natural healthy liquids (no oils), to create a pliable, moldable, media with a dough like consistency. FlyDoh media can be frozen, thawed, and refreezed repeatedly. It cuts thick like cookie dough, does not run, and resists drying!!! For use, simply slice off a portion of the roll, preferably already thawed, and place it in your fly culture cup. An even easier form is our FlyDoh biscuits–premeasured portions of media that resemble a biscuit. The biscuits can be placed frozen in the cup and allowed to thaw overnight. We will also offer a tub of media ready for spooning. Each tub and roll comes in 1 and 2 pound sizes. The biscuits come in quantities of 50 or 100 packed in a freezer bag for convenience and easy handling. Flydoh media makes fly culturing mega-easy!
Another USA Frog innovation!


I wonder how Play-Doh feels about them using that name?


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Just when you thought it was SAFE™ ....


----------



## edwardsatc

USA Frog FrogMatch ProgramsDart Frogs FrogMatch Programs
USA Frog Peer Quality
Adult USA Frog Go-to-Market Program
USA Frog FrogMatch Breeder Program
Dart Frog Conservation and Rain Forests
Downloads


----------



## Azurel

edwardsatc said:


> and USA Frog - FrogZoo.com
> 
> So we're back to square one. Their ignorant view of population genetics (and genetics in general) is just incredible.
> 
> Hiding it amongst religious material? Intelligent Design anyone?


That is the scary part.... As a Christian its this kind of stuff I can't stand. Instead of being in awe of your creators handy work they think they can make it "better" by crossing this and mixing that, talk about self-indulgent. If you believe that these creatures are created with and in perfection by your Gods hands they need no tampering.

Using or taking any science and research out of context to pad your agend is pure BS.

And people like that wonder why they have a bad name or seen in bad light....You get the preception you present....

Hypocrits....period.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Azurel said:


> That is the scary part.... As a Christian its this kind of stuff I can't stand. Instead of being in awe of your creators handy work they think they can make it "better" by crossing this and mixing that, talk about self-indulgent. If you believe that these creatures are created with and in perfection by your Gods hands they need no tampering.
> 
> Using or taking any science and research out of context to pad your agend is pure BS.
> 
> And people like that wonder why they have a bad name or seen in bad light....You get the preception you present....
> 
> Hypocrits....period.


I am Christian as well and have been thinking the same thing as you. Don't mess with nature, imbrace the beauty of it as God made it. 

IMHO, I can't stand the ball python hobby for this very reason.


----------



## hydrophyte

My grandma went to church, but she told me you have to watch out for people who go on and on about God all the time. 

Very often they think they can just do anything at all and Jesus will give them cover.


----------



## Phyllobates

edwardsatc said:


> and USA Frog - FrogZoo.com
> 
> So we're back to square one. Their ignorant view of population genetics (and genetics in general) is just incredible.
> 
> Hiding it amongst religious material? Intelligent Design anyone?


That link was weird. This just keeps getting more and more bizarre. Me thinks someone is having fun at our expense.


----------



## hydrophyte

edwardsatc said:


> and USA Frog - FrogZoo.com
> 
> So we're back to square one. Their ignorant view of population genetics (and genetics in general) is just incredible.
> 
> Hiding it amongst religious material? Intelligent Design anyone?


The content on that page really sounds like it was written by a crazy person.


----------



## JeremyHuff

They seem to be drastically lowering their prices. Lots of $10-$12 frogs.


----------



## whitethumb

geezs.... at this point, i would never purchase anything from them. they couldn't give it away. i really feel sorry for their collection.


----------



## Azurel

JeremyHuff said:


> They seem to be drastically lowering their prices. Lots of $10-$12 frogs.


Maybe they figured it isn't going to work out they way they planned and gonna dump stock....or under cut the hobby....at this point who knows...


----------



## Dale D

"We know many top shelf, ethical, and experienced dart frog breeders out there in the hobby. These individuals are the pillars of the hobby" 

What is this hobby he speaks of?


----------



## Dale D

"We love the frogs and their spendor, and started this family business on that basis alone! We have high praises for the passions of all hobbyist groups!"

Things seem to have changed.


----------



## srrrio

Phyllobates said:


> That link was weird. This just keeps getting more and more bizarre. Me thinks someone is having fun at our expense.


At this point I almost wish that to be true. It is truly a stranger story then fiction, and man am I upset about all those frogs!

I'm also starting to really worry for this family. There are some major mental heath issues going on, whatever the case.


----------



## Gamble

JeremyHuff said:


> They seem to be drastically lowering their prices. Lots of $10-$12 frogs.


Hopefully it's a sign of bailing out water of a sinking ship.

And in this case ... hopefully they forgot to pack the life boat.


----------



## dgibbons1

Any one notice the 100 $ minimum frog purchase even with those low low prices....they are dumping stock like mad


----------



## Brian317

I feel sorry for those frogs.


----------



## frogparty

Yeah, well I feel bad for the hobbyists that buy these frogs RETAIL from the places like LLL etc that will surely be snapping these up wholesale


----------



## oldlady25715

Eulogy: Another frog business down the drain. Classic rookie mistake to overbreed frogs that are already readily available. Blinded by youthful vigor, drive and passion without sufficiently evaluating the economics, market absorption, institutional knowledge, and politics. Potentially scarring the hobby with hybrids in their midst. Bought a bunch of web domains and trademarks thinking they could out-market the established competition and open untapped markets. 

I have a feeling that if this doesn't pan out the Waschers will be ok. Sometimes putting yourself out there and falling flat is a good lesson learned to be more humble and careful, especially when bringing "thousands" of living creatures into the world. 

Gotta give Josh's frogs credit for having a stable commercial frogs business approaching a decade now. Its taken him that long to just move to a larger facility. Frogging is a marathon, not a sprint.

RIP Dartfrog/Art Frog Warehouse


----------



## JeremyHuff

Now their tadpoles are nearly twice the price of the froglets.


----------



## FroggyKnight

JeremyHuff said:


> Now their tadpoles are nearly twice the price of the froglets.


HA! That is kinda messed up……


----------



## frogface

Dillon, there is no reason you can't be a frog breeder and a student. 

If you are regrouping, this might be a good time to enroll in some biology classes. Learn the science behind these amazing creatures. Also, you could get involved in some research studies. I know there are groups, all over the country, that are studying the spread of chytrid among native populations. My vet was telling me about a friend of hers who is big into ranavirus research at a university in Tennessee. 

Use your drive to improve the health and sustainability of amphibian populations. You'll be one of the heros


----------



## bsr8129

At those prices, i can see alot of people buying them, hell you can even buy them and sell them on here and make a profit.


----------



## Dane

bsr8129 said:


> At those prices, i can see alot of people buying them, hell you can even buy them and sell them on here and make a profit.


Really? After this 50+ page thread?


----------



## bsr8129

Dane said:


> Really? After this 50+ page thread?


Im only on page 13 for this thread, and you will never know who really bought these frogs.


----------



## JPccusa

bsr8129 said:


> At those prices, i can see alot of people buying them, hell you can even buy them and sell them on here and make a profit.


Really bad idea, unless you are the kind of seller who does not care about telling the truth about the provenance of your frogs. You also have to be okay with the idea of being a flipper.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

bsr8129 said:


> Im only on page 13 for this thread, and you will never know who really bought these frogs.


We`ll know.

John


----------



## bsr8129

JPccusa said:


> Really bad idea, unless you are the kind of seller who does not care about telling the truth about the provenance of your frogs. You also have to be okay with the idea of being a flipper.


Not saying I am going to do it, just saying its a possibility. There are a quite a few "flippers" on here, that not nesscary a bad term. But thats another discussion.


----------



## Charlie Q

still, supply and demand. I just can't imagine there is enough demand for thousands of fairly common frogs. Even if you were trying to flip them, you'd kill your demand in no time.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I can only think of a couple "breeders" that would flip them, and they're not people that most of us would buy from anyway.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I have to wonder, at $10 a froglet, even if you're breeding in that mass quantity, is it even worth the effort?


----------



## phender

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I have to wonder, at $10 a froglet, even if you're breeding in that mass quantity, is it even worth the effort?


It would be if you had 2000 frogs. A lot less effort than having to feed them and making cultures to support them.


----------



## oldlady25715

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I have to wonder, at $10 a froglet, even if you're breeding in that mass quantity, is it even worth the effort?


It may be if you have fee child labor. Otherwise I don't think it pencils at minimum wage with costs.

Its a "make the rent payment" sale.


----------



## edwardsatc

More nuggets ...

USA Frog - FrogZoo.com

Obviously another earlier version of the DFW site (similar to the Wascher site), but it's nice of them to keep an archive of all the old material for us


----------



## edwardsatc

SAFE, A1, Dart Frogs, pet and breeder


----------



## edwardsatc

Can't wait to see what they are developing to apply the "Naturist" trademark to.

NATURIST - Reviews & Brand Information - Rick Wascher Waukesha, WI - Serial Number: 85875541


----------



## Dragonfish

Frog Wholesale

Interesting page! Looks like their sales pitch to local pet stores.


----------



## oldlady25715

I'm fairly convinced this family should get a TV reality series. And Doug was correct that a Shark tank pitch would also be great to see.


----------



## mjahnke

"The Real Art Frog Breeders of Shelby County"


----------



## markpulawski

Sure glad they trade marked COLOR.....I was this close >< to using that, because my frogs have color.


----------



## Dendrobati

markpulawski said:


> Sure glad they trade marked COLOR.....I was this close >< to using that, because my frogs have color.


Both me and Brad have been following this thread, but we didn't want to post, just because we have a business and all...you know!...

But... I could not resist... this comment just killed me, it was so funny, I HAD to put a like on it. I just had to.

Very funny!

Marta

Sent from my Motorola Electrify using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> Can't wait to see what they are developing to apply the "Naturist" trademark to.
> 
> NATURIST - Reviews & Brand Information - Rick Wascher Waukesha, WI - Serial Number: 85875541


Pretty obvious that this is a trademark for whatever line of supplements they plan to offer.


----------



## JPccusa

Or for frogs sold without clothes on.


----------



## frogfreak

markpulawski said:


> Sure glad they trade marked COLOR.....I was this close >< to using that, because my frogs have color.


Yes, but they overlooked COLO*U*R, which is used by most English speaking populations. 

I got it!


----------



## Azurel

You guys have frogs with COLOR.tm? All of mine are just shades of gray....Guess I should up grade.


----------



## JeremyHuff

I'm in the middle of renovating a WAREHOUSE to house my DARTFROGS. I hope I am not breaking any TM by doing that.


----------



## Dane

mjahnke said:


> "The Real Art Frog Breeders of Shelby County"


The rhetoric makes them sound more like "Doomsday Froggers".


----------



## Dendro Dave

Dane said:


> The rhetoric makes them sound more like "Doomsday Froggers".


I feel guilty for this, because I don't think we should attack the family itself, just their approach to business and our hobby, so with that in mind... I couldn't resist


----------



## Dendrobati

Everyone is making fun of their trade marks. I want you all to know that we, Dendrobati, are working on our own trade marks. New for 2014, we will have our trade mark on FROG and on TADPOLE. We are still working on the trade mark FLY and FLIES. 

Don't worry, and purchases from us will include an authentic, genuine, official certificate for the use of the word FROG and or other trade marks. You won't even have to pay extra for it......its the Dendrobati way! Ah....wait...no its not!


We did try to trademark HYBRID but it was already taken.


----------



## Charlie Q

My question is, what are the upstanding companies such as yourself and josh's frogs and the rest, going to do about this? At this point it seems they are making false claims and using false advertising to gain a competitive advantage. 

This seems very unethical and it would be nice to see some of the legitimate businesses stand together and open a private dialogue with dart frog warehouse, and if that fails then bring some form of legal action against their false claims. It really isn't fair for one company to advertise themselves as the only store that can ship year round or that their animals are 100% harmless.

I mean, if you need somebody to buy some frogs from them and swallow one or 2 just call me...


----------



## Dendrobati

We are in a restaurant right now and we just laughed, a lot. By now, they are thinking they made our drinks too strong...

Don't swallow a frog! Thank you for your commitment though! 

Well, to be honest, they have a different market and target different costumers than we do. The hobby as a community as addressed everything very well. The evidence is them dropping their tinc prices to $10ea. 



As for Josh's frogs, we don't think they have anything to worry about, they are a strong and respected company. Places like DFW come and go. The hobby community responds very well when there is an issue. Its nice to see how strong and united everyone is. 

Brad & Marta


----------



## Charlie Q

ok, sounds good. i hope dillon finds his way to college eventually.


----------



## Scott

As long as he doesn't go to law school.

s


Charlie Q said:


> ok, sounds good. i hope dillon finds his way to college eventually.


----------



## ggazonas

Just saw this on the website

"Our SAFE™ dart frogs bring joy to people, and we are delighted to deliver it/them to you!Our ONE HOP™ shipping is just one factor in our ARRIVE2THRIVE guarantee. Sure, your frogs get from our hands to yours sooner with much less stress, but they also arrive at ease–ready to hop. Like a young dog after a long car ride, we want your frogs to hop, jump, climb, stretch, exercise, and just plain feel good while seeing you admire how cool they really are...and so the bond begins! Your frogs will thank you for their new home and react appreciatively. "

"This passion of ours helps our familar frog friends become your new companions, and you–our new friends too! Your frogs believe they will ARRIVE2THRIVE™, and we do too! Guaranteed! A quick caution though, we recommend waiting to open their individual shipping containers until you get them home and in their new house. Otherwise, you may be chasing jumping frogs around FedEx, your car, or wherever you opened their container(s). 

Enjoy!

The Frog Warehouse Family!"

Not really sure what to say about this one.....I can't imagine someone would want to buy frogs frog this company, with all there corny trademarks, guarantees and the suggesting tat your frogs will thank you when you get home. I can't get my wife to thank me for cleaning the house but there frogs will thank you when you get home. Ridiculous......i feel bad for anyone who falls for there nonsense.

And on top of all that They caution you not to open the box in your car....Do they just stick the frogs in the box and hope all goes well. I wouldn't feel safe purchasing from them if there was a chance my frogs weren't properly shipped.


----------



## Julio

The sad part is that even though they claim to have this stuff trade marked in am sure it's not, I've done trade marks for my company and it's $250 for every trade mark registered with the US government


----------



## Dendrobati

Julio said:


> The sad part is that even though they claim to have this stuff trade marked in am sure it's not, I've done trade marks for my company and it's $250 for every trade mark registered with the US government


I checked it out before all the controversy and they really are trademarks. If I recall right, they date back to 2012.

One person involved is a patent attorney. 

Brad


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> Has anyone noticed that a couple of the most vocal opponents of mixing have been silent here? I'm a bit perplexed and disappointed.


\

I don't know if I'm included in the above... but it's been a busy few days..... 
Other than that, y'all have been pretty vocal about it. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I have to wonder, at $10 a froglet, even if you're breeding in that mass quantity, is it even worth the effort?





phender said:


> It would be if you had 2000 frogs. A lot less effort than having to feed them and making cultures to support them.


I don't think that even at those levels that they can turn a profit at $10 a froglet. The tadpoles and their care, all cost money.. in terms of electricity, fish food, water, possibly sewer costs, and time. People often undervalue the cost of their time on these sorts of endeavors... and often when you figure it out, you are paying yourself much less than minimal wage for a lot more work.. The only way it makes sense to charge that little for the froglets, is to use them as a lead in for hopefully future sales with respect to dry goods, fly cultures and so forth. This is a huge fiscal risk since you could easily end up losing lots and lots of money very quickly. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Azurel

Ed said:


> I don't think that even at those levels that they can turn a profit at $10 a froglet. The tadpoles and their care, all cost money.. in terms of electricity, fish food, water, possibly sewer costs, and time. People often undervalue the cost of their time on these sorts of endeavors... and often when you figure it out, you are paying yourself much less than minimal wage for a lot more work.. The only way it makes sense to charge that little for the froglets, is to use them as a lead in for hopefully future sales with respect to dry goods, fly cultures and so forth. This is a huge fiscal risk since you could easily end up losing lots and lots of money very quickly.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


In most cases that is why small start ups fail. They bleed more money then they ever bring in. Which causes the final choice to be made.... They average time before failure for start ups is 3-5 years on the good side.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ed said:


> I don't think that even at those levels that they can turn a profit at $10 a froglet. The tadpoles and their care, all cost money.. in terms of electricity, fish food, water, possibly sewer costs, and time. People often undervalue the cost of their time on these sorts of endeavors... and often when you figure it out, you are paying yourself much less than minimal wage for a lot more work.. The only way it makes sense to charge that little for the froglets, is to use them as a lead in for hopefully future sales with respect to dry goods, fly cultures and so forth. This is a huge fiscal risk since you could easily end up losing lots and lots of money very quickly.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



Hence the use of cheep, probably unpaid, underage family labor.


----------



## edwardsatc

DFW is sure proving to be a non-stop source of entertainment. 

From their "Innovations" page:

" PILLOW™ substrate pouches, bags, mats, etc.!
PILLOW™ is our proprietary trademark for our unique, clean, premade, substrate pouches for frog enclosures. The bag itself is made by us from a drainage promoting burlap material and filled with our proprietary blend of growing media, and micro life promoting substrate. Changing substrate is a breeze, the enclosures are kept cleaner than any other substrate, and the microlife thrive in abundance. With thousands of frogs and a ton of enclosures to house them in prior to sale, breeding, etc., we needed a clean, easy to swap out, media bag, inhabited with microlife, so we designed the PILLOW substrate pouch. We will also offer a feeder version for thumbnails. We call it the T-Bag™ The media inside the T-Bag pouch is outrageous for microlife propagation, but it does break down in about 60 days. Still, for those two months the microlife will be teaming out of the bag. Also, you will be amazed at the size of the microlife and how fast the microlife reproduction dramatically outpaces the consumption of them by your frogs. Just toss one in the bottom of your enclosure and watch the frogs learn to play on it, and feed from the abundance of microlife that crawl out when walked on. "


----------



## Azurel

edwardsatc said:


> DFW is sure proving to be a non-stop source of entertainment.
> 
> From their "Innovations" page:
> 
> " PILLOW™ substrate pouches, bags, mats, etc.!
> PILLOW™ is our proprietary trademark for our unique, clean, premade, substrate pouches for frog enclosures. The bag itself is made by us from a drainage promoting burlap material and filled with our proprietary blend of growing media, and micro life promoting substrate. Changing substrate is a breeze, the enclosures are kept cleaner than any other substrate, and the microlife thrive in abundance. With thousands of frogs and a ton of enclosures to house them in prior to sale, breeding, etc., we needed a clean, easy to swap out, media bag, inhabited with microlife, so we designed the PILLOW substrate pouch. We will also offer a feeder version for thumbnails. We call it the T-Bag™ The media inside the T-Bag pouch is outrageous for microlife propagation, but it does break down in about 60 days. Still, for those two months the microlife will be teaming out of the bag. Also, you will be amazed at the size of the microlife and how fast the microlife reproduction dramatically outpaces the consumption of them by your frogs. Just toss one in the bottom of your enclosure and watch the frogs learn to play on it, and feed from the abundance of microlife that crawl out when walked on. "


I'm not gonna buy, or order anything with the name T-bag. Either your nieve or plain oblivous to trademark that and name a product that.


----------



## JJuchems

So yesterday day Tincs were $9.98, to day $18.66. They change prices like the stock exchange and apprerently have no idea what the going wholesale rate is on many morphs. Why buy today when in a few hours prices will change again.


----------



## carola1155

I think someone needs to point them to urban dictionary before they go trademarking anything else...


----------



## ivas

edwardsatc said:


> " We call it the T-Bag™ "


That's what she said!


----------



## JJuchems

carola1155 said:


> I think someone needs to point them to urban dictionary before they go trademarking anything else...


No, no... where is the fun in that. Someone needs to tag t-bag.


----------



## JeremyHuff

Looks like they need to listen to Howard Stern, watch Jackass or porn to get the meaning of t-bag. Religion in this case is not helping.


----------



## Pumilo

I'm thinking that breeding will be extremely rare in "T-bag" tanks. At least it will solve the problem of finding an appropriate mate for a make believe, made up, morph.


----------



## frogface

Wait, did they TM Tbag? Ok, they can have that one.


----------



## Gamble

LMAO

Well it looks like we won't have to do much to drive them out of the hobby.
They're doing most of that work themselves.

I'mma trademark D-Bag.


----------



## Brian317

frogface said:


> Wait, did they TM Tbag? Ok, they can have that one.


I think so! I needed that laugh.


----------



## frogface

Just another reason why Dillon should go to college.


----------



## edwardsatc

This pillow thing sounds (and smells) more like a diaper ...

So let me get this straight. According to the "industry experts", we should be keeping our frogs on a burlap sack full of dirt that can be replaced when it becomes soiled? And ... this bag of dirt magically provides us with abundant "microlife"? Exactly what is this "microlife" because what I really want to magically appear are macroorganisms like springtails, isopods, etc.

And there is the magic bag which will produce microlife that we will be amazed by? Apparently, the frogs will play on this like kids bouncing on a bed and microlife will come poofing out.

I've been doing this hobby all wrong. Instead of investing all that money in plants, substrate, false bottoms, springtails, isopods, etc, I could have just thrown in a couple sacks of dirt. Huh, who knew.


----------



## edwardsatc

So, their expert understanding page has gradually been reduced to 4 uninformed sentences:


"Not surprisingly, we are the only source of captive bred frogs we know of that uses phenotype lineage mapping in hopes of identifying the "most genetically valuable" variations overall, and we continually strive to produce the best frogs! For us, phenotyping means observing and cataloging any and all discernable variations in appearance between frogs of the same species, varieties, and age. We do not limit ourselves and do not inbreed our frogs either. We look for the lineal progression of seemingly dominant traits and conformation (e.g., size and stature), and knowing which recessive traits are most likely to thrive anywhere." 

What's "not surprising" is that there's an incredible misunderstanding


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

They actually trademarked T-bag...........

" So sue me," every drunk frat guy after the first person at the party passes out ever.....

Rick, you may want to browse urban dictionary before you trademark anymore terms.


----------



## diggenem

ggazonas said:


> Just saw this on the website
> 
> "Our SAFE™ dart frogs bring joy to people, and we are delighted to deliver it/them to you!Our ONE HOP™ shipping is just one factor in our ARRIVE2THRIVE guarantee. Sure, your frogs get from our hands to yours sooner with much less stress, but they also arrive at ease–ready to hop. Like a young dog after a long car ride, we want your frogs to hop, jump, climb, stretch, exercise, and just plain feel good while seeing you admire how cool they really are...and so the bond begins! Your frogs will thank you for their new home and react appreciatively. "
> 
> "This passion of ours helps our familar frog friends become your new companions, and you–our new friends too! Your frogs believe they will ARRIVE2THRIVE™, and we do too! Guaranteed! A quick caution though, we recommend waiting to open their individual shipping containers until you get them home and in their new house. Otherwise, you may be chasing jumping frogs around FedEx, your car, or wherever you opened their container(s).
> 
> Enjoy!
> 
> The Frog Warehouse Family!"
> 
> Not really sure what to say about this one.....I can't imagine someone would want to buy frogs frog this company, with all there corny trademarks, guarantees and the suggesting tat your frogs will thank you when you get home. I can't get my wife to thank me for cleaning the house but there frogs will thank you when you get home. Ridiculous......i feel bad for anyone who falls for there nonsense.
> 
> And on top of all that They caution you not to open the box in your car....Do they just stick the frogs in the box and hope all goes well. I wouldn't feel safe purchasing from them if there was a chance my frogs weren't properly shipped.


This sounds like a bad, infomercial. Like the kind you see at 3 am on a Tuesday.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

All I`m getting now on their website is their religious rambling. That's even worse.
Someone please make these people go away.

I want my mommy.

John


----------



## hydrophyte

Maybe their frog operation is just finished.

I hope this guy and his family are OK.


----------



## JJuchems

hydrophyte said:


> Maybe their frog operation is just finished.
> 
> I hope this guy and his family are OK.


The site is still working, frogs are still being offered.


----------



## JJuchems

JJuchems said:


> The site is still working, frogs are still being offered.


I needed to say they dropped Dart Frog Warehouse, are now just Buydartfrogs.com, Buy Dart Frogs.


----------



## carola1155

The first line on their welcome page is an interesting one....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> ive bred dart frogs, and sell them at wholesale prices under our SAFE brand. Tinctorious "poison dart frogs", Auratus "poison dart frogs" , etc., are not poisonous if bred in captivity from captive bred parents.


Seems as though that whole Poison Dart Drog reference they were ridiculing others for using is an important distinction now.....

Seriously, I've never seen any business change their web site so much in such short time.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Probably aren't that many businesses whose dotcom has had so many hits in such a short time.


----------



## aspidites73

epiphytes etc. said:


> Probably aren't that many businesses whose dotcom has had so many hits in such a short time.



With all that traffic, a smart man would have hyperlinked his trademarks with PPC links


----------



## epiphytes etc.

A smart man would have done a lot of things differently.


----------



## Dane

aspidites73 said:


> With all that traffic, a smart man would have hyperlinked his trademarks with PPC links


Maybe we should hold off on giving them suggestions to further their business until they alter their practices.


----------



## aspidites73

Dane said:


> Maybe we should hold off on giving them suggestions to further their business until they alter their practices.


Just a little net nerd humor, no one in their right mind would consider that wise advice.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

carola1155 said:


> The first line on their welcome page is an interesting one....


Yep, any way for religious fanatics to spread the word. 
If my memory serves me, isn`t that one of the reasons we started Thunderdome?

John- the Allmighty Enlightened One.


----------



## frogface

My sister is homeschooling her kids in a religious environment. Thank god they have Aunt frogface to teach them things like T-Bag


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Wow, it seems like only...42 pages ago that Scott asked us to leave this thread alone.

Have you heard the word of God today? 
He just told me the Patriots are getting their butts kicked, yea right now. 
Now that's good info.

John


----------



## Scott

John,

At the time, I just wanted it to simmer down. Mainly because of the Troller.

At this point - it's all legit information. 

I'd LIKE for it to simmer down, but the folks at DFW (whatever) seem to take a perverse pleasure in riling up the masses.

Kind of hard to shut that down - so you'll note we've stepped out of the way of the car accident.

s


----------



## TerraFerma

I have still not ruled this out as being an elaborate prank. Or at least if its not...their business will be about as successful as one.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> He just told me the Patriots are getting their butts kicked, yea right now.
> Now that's good info.
> 
> John


Way to Jinx it bro.


----------



## Tricolor

Can I register the word creeper. not quite tad and yet not quite froggie. Everybody is welcome to use it.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Way to Jinx it bro.


I seriously can`t believe they lost.
There is no God.

John


----------



## carola1155

all I'm getting is an error message when I try to visit the site... tried a few different browsers and got the same thing. Looks like something is up.

If this site ends up going down I really hope we don't end up with a repeat of what happened this summer... make sure you all keep an eye out for new companies with "mystery expert breeders".


----------



## joshbaker14t

carola1155 said:


> all I'm getting is an error message when I try to visit the site... tried a few different browsers and got the same thing. Looks like something is up.
> 
> If this site ends up going down I really hope we don't end up with a repeat of what happened this summer... make sure you all keep an eye out for new companies with "mystery expert breeders".


Buy dart frogs dot com

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## carola1155

joshbaker14t said:


> Buy dart frogs dot com
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


There it is... Up and running... Oh well


----------



## Charlie Q

The best thing for us to do is ignore them. I have full confidence that their business practices and alienation from the hobby will be enough to force them to close shop eventually.


----------



## carola1155

Charlie Q said:


> The best thing for us to do is ignore them. I have full confidence that their business practices and alienation from the hobby will be enough to force them to close shop eventually.


Totally ignoring them isn't necessarily the answer. Its actually probably what they want... to slip into obscurity and deal with wholesale/B2B sales. Keeping threads like this relevant will help inform any new hobbyist/diligent business owner that didn't see it when it first happened.


----------



## Firawen

I emailed them about helping them with constructive criticisms and helping with their website (for free I might add). They seemed open to the idea. They asked for my phone number, I gave it to them, and they never called. Go figure. Maybe they will call, but it's been a few days. I thought that maybe they just don't understand what they are doing and why it is frowned upon, but I'm starting to think I was wrong.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## JPccusa

I am sure they do understand what they are doing but have a different opinion than the majority and dollar signs in their eyes.

Reminds me of the show American Inventor - People with clearly horrible ideas truly believed they had what it takes to win the show and make big bucks.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I think this is one of the most glaring examples of "culture clash", that the hobby has seen in some time. Something that I've kinda talked about before.

Usually it is one person, a standard hobbyist that has just run afoul of the status quo, and I usually preach tolerance, and I think we started off right for the most part in just trying to educate them and communicate the issues but they didn't seem all that willing to address the issues. They had a plan to revolutionize our hobby in a way we didn't want and were determined to stick with it regardless of the culture clash.

We (including myself may have taken it a bit far and to personal), like with the religious stuff and harping on that, but they were coming into our community kinda trying to force their beliefs on us even after we were pretty dang clear we weren't buying what they were selling, especially if that is how they were going to try to sell it to us.

Now they basically have a choice to A. Either rethink/restructure the business and proceed on more acceptable terms and hope they haven't sunk themselves completely, or B. Liquidate and quit. 

Given the massive price drops, it looks like they've chosen "B". Probably smart... Cheap frogs are tempting, but even I will be refraining from purchasing anything from them. 

I don't think their designer frog plans had really gone into effect yet and I'm not going to lynch anyone buying their frogs. They're likely fine, but I just choose not to do business with them. 

The whole thing is just kinda sad, but unfortunatly for them they didn't bother to get a real sense of the "culture" before proceeding. I think it would have been obvious to those who are actively involved in the community that those practices weren't going to fly with the hobby. 

I doubt they are evil, and shouldn't be treated as such, just terribly misinformed or ignorant of the culture they were entering.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Dendro Dave. You just summed up my thoughts perfectly!

DFW had a very good chance at thriving as a business, but instead tried to make a huge and unwanted change to our hobby.


----------



## Gamble

FroggyKnight said:


> Dendro Dave. You just summed up my thoughts perfectly!
> 
> DFW had a very good chance at thriving as a business, but instead tried to make a huge and unwanted change to our hobby.


All the while, waiving their middle fingers at us.

I guess it didn't occur to them that we have alot more middle fingers then they do.


----------



## edwardsatc

I get a kick out of watching the daily website changes. Hard to tell what to call the business these days ... USA frog? Buy Dart Frogs? 

Interesting addition to the home page today:

"ALL SALES ARE CONFIDENTIAL!"

Well they should be, but seeing it on the web page makes me feel like I just entered a porn shop.

My interpretation: Come buy our frogs of questionable breeding practices ... don't worry, no one will know ... my lips are sealed.


----------



## Dragonfish

I like their new logo, but it reminds me of something....


----------



## Brian317

edwardsatc said:


> Interesting addition to the home page today:
> 
> "ALL SALES ARE CONFIDENTIAL!"
> 
> Well they should be, but seeing it on the web page makes me feel like I just entered a porn shop.


Agree. 

They are just desperate now...and it is showing...


----------



## oldlady25715

Prices are back up from a low of $10 per frog. Looks like they paid the rent.


----------



## Dane

edwardsatc said:


> Interesting addition to the home page today:
> 
> "ALL SALES ARE CONFIDENTIAL!"
> 
> Well they should be, but seeing it on the web page makes me feel like I just entered a porn shop.


Will my frogs be delivered in a discreet, brown paper package?


----------



## carola1155

It's ok guys... they aren't actually selling Poison Dart Frogs... they are just selling "Colorful Safe Frogs"

this is such a joke...


> Unfortunately, many commercial sellers and breeders refer to their frogs as "poison dart frogs" we assume to emulate the mystique of the wild ancestors and perpetuate the myth (and confusion for would-be frog devotees, but for the name).


They do realize that "poison dart frog" is the widely accepted and *legitimate* common name for any frog in the Dendrobatidae family, right? Literally 99.9999999% of the world accepts them being referred to by their common name (Had to leave the .0000001% for a few misinformed "breeders" in Tennessee). 

"Colorful Safe Frog" is such a stupid concept and I really hope they realize how incredibly naive it makes them look. There TONS of other "Colorful" frogs on this planet. That term does absolutely nothing to distinguish the frogs they are selling from any other frog. 

I wonder if they call dogs "fluffy cuddle-friends".

I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish they didn't blow the money for that first year of college on this stupid "business venture" they have. Any simple freshman business/marketing class would have really helped them.


----------



## edwardsatc

And the prices continue to fall:

kingsnake.com Classifieds: Dart Frog Wholesale/Retail; 4mo. old under $20! Huge In-Stock Inventory!


----------



## epiphytes etc.

That just reeks of desperation.


----------



## edwardsatc

The name game continues:

*US Dart Frog*, the dart frog division of *USA Frog*. I/we can be found online at *BuyDartFrogs.com*


----------



## FroggyKnight

edwardsatc said:


> The name game continues:
> 
> *US Dart Frog*, the dart frog division of *USA Frog*. I/we can be found online at *BuyDartFrogs.com*


your joking. How many time have they changed names now? six times maybe? I honestly haven't been keeping track.


----------



## ggazonas

And then they post this in there kingsnake add

"The following was added on 11/27/13
We are duck hunting tomorrow and need to start the SALE tonight at 9PM!"


----------



## rigel10

I read the pricelist on Kingsnake: 'Anthonyi "Fivers" $ 44'. They found/created a new locality?


----------



## Jeremiah

I was hoping they wouldn't find kingsnake... the one place they would be able to dump some of their animals.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

rigel10 said:


> I read the pricelist on Kingsnake: 'Anthonyi "Fivers" $ 44'. They found/created a new locality?


I think they're saying 5 frogs for $44.


----------



## JeremyHuff

rigel10 said:


> I read the pricelist on Kingsnake: 'Anthonyi "Fivers" $ 44'. They found/created a new locality?


I would assume that means 5 for $44. Not a different name. But who really knows....


----------



## rigel10

Thank you, guys. Mine was an ironic question. Given the lack of care with which they reproduce frogs (with regard to the sale of mixed auratus tadpoles and who knows what else) an the tendency they have to call the frogs to their liking, as vittatus "Laser" (if I remember well), maybe they have created a new hybrid: Epipedobates anthonyi "Fivers" (created, in fact, mixing five different morph of epips ).


----------



## Ed

Hmmm it seems to me that over the last ten years or more, there have been several things that would have made this huge risk of hybrids getting out into the hobby pretty much non-issue. It's a shame that the hobby had little to no interest in setting a system that would have made this finger pointing as unneeded.... 

Does anyone in this thread remember FrogTrax? how about ASN?? 

It's a little late now.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Anyone notice they're running ads on their site now too?


----------



## pdfCrazy

Damn.....I almost bought the domain Buydartfrogs.com this summer for $250.00 I shoulda snagged it.


----------



## FroggyKnight

yeah, I noticed too……….


----------



## FroggyKnight

pdfCrazy said:


> Damn.....I almost bought the domain Buydartfrogs.com this summer for $250.00 I shoulda snagged it.


HA! snooze, you lose

I really do wish you did buy it though. It would have saved us a lot of trouble and given a person with much more experience an easy to search site.


----------



## thedude

pdfCrazy said:


> Damn.....I almost bought the domain Buydartfrogs.com this summer for $250.00 I shoulda snagged it.


I'm surprised they didn't go for buysafefrogs.com


----------



## Azurel

thedude said:


> I'm surprised they didn't go for buysafefrogs.com


Great thanks a lot Adam.... There goes my website....I was gonna buy,buysafefrogs.com...


Now I am gonna have to do T-bagyourfrogs.com.....lol


----------



## FroggyKnight

They are now posting ads under two names on kingsnake. They have an ad by dillon wascher and another by BuyDartFrogs.com US dart frog. Is this permitted on kingsnake? I've never posted there before so I'm unsure of their rules and guidelines for posting.


----------



## edwardsatc

- Advertising under multiple names 

- Prices change daily. Some frogs as low as $7.50 today.

- Minimum order changes almost daily. Over the past week the minimum order has gone from $100 to $75 to $50

- Business name has changed at least 6 times in the past two weeks

Who would do business with them?

Here's what pisses me off the most and the reason I continue to post in this thread:

- advocating the mixing of morphs. Currently you can order mixed groups of anthonyi (Santa Isabel, Zarayunga) and tinctorious (powder grey, azureus, cobalt).


----------



## Dale D

They've got the frogs listed by their name ("Malibu" etc) and then in brackets right next to it they have the accepted name so you know what they are talking about and what you are getting.
Why bother with your own names?


----------



## Scott

Excellent points all Donn.

Wonder if anyone still wonders why we're objecting to how these folks do business?

s


----------



## oddlot

With the prices they are selling off their frogs for,he may still be able to go to a semester of community college........and still drive a vette (a chevette).....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

oddlot said:


> With the prices they are selling off their frogs for,he may still be able to go to a semester of community college........and still drive a vette (a chevette).....


Oh god, I wouldn't wish a Chevette on anyone. That was my mom's first car, no AC, in Houston, in the Summer........


----------



## Mantella71

"USA Frog is venturing out into selling products of others, but combining the products of others with our frogs is not wise unless there is a *leagl* wall between them"

Quote from their Family-About Us

I sent them an e-mail to fix typos i.e. legal (misspelling) on their website if they want to appear professional  good luck


----------



## scoy

Now what does that crap mean? Am I not allowed to keep there frogs in a exo terra because they didnt make it, or re they saying there frogs should not be breed with other peoples? For the record I've never dealt with them or plan to.


----------



## edwardsatc

Mantella71 said:


> "USA Frog is venturing out into selling products of others, but combining the products of others with our frogs is not wise unless there is a *leagl* wall between them"
> 
> Quote from their Family-About Us
> 
> I sent them an e-mail to fix typos i.e. legal (misspelling) on their website if they want to appear professional  good luck


The whole paragraph is baffling to me. I can't figure out what their point is. Sounds like the ramblings of a madman.

**Why the multiple names? It is always best for a company to be accurate in their name usage AND the association with THEIR OWN products. US Dart Frog breeds and sells dart frogs, that is us SAFE Dart Frogs for sale on the web at BuyDartFrogs.com. USA Frog is venturing out into selling products of others, but combining the products of others with our frogs is not wise unless there is a leagl wall between them. This is so because we can always attest to, and vigorously defend, the superior quality and safety of our frogs, but we cannot watch over the manufacturers of products we did not make. Still, the laws of our country allow the seller of any product to be sued alongside the manufacturer of a faulty product. Thus, if we carry and sell the products of someone else and they have a quality issue we did know about, e.g., a faulty heater (we don't sell heaters by the way), we do not want their cruddy stuff damaging our top quality frog business! Thus, US Dart Frog is SAFE™ DART FROGS, and USA Frog does more than that. *


----------



## Mantella71

I never have or never will either. I just think it's ludicrous for them to say how professional they are but can't proof read their own site, really? Anyone who comes across how they do is a joke. Sounds like they got into it for all the wrong reasons. Unfortunately people like this come and go. Hopefully sooner than later.


----------



## edwardsatc

*"This is a sexed pair of magnificent Leucomelas SAFE dart frogs. Each has similar markings and is likely to produce offspring similar in appearance to the parents and some range in bot directions: fine spot and banded."*

To me, this sounds like they've mixed banded and fine spot leucs.

Unfortunately, they'll probably be successful at unloading many of these frogs and we'll be stuck cleaning up the mess.


----------



## carola1155

I feel like someone is going to be hiring a trumpet player to see these guys off soon... 

This whole idea of distancing themselves from the community is entertaining. They claim they have done all this research to back up what they are doing... but they clearly have never used google before. Type in questions about dart frogs and you start getting results from this and other forums. 

It is only a matter of time before that person who just bought something from them sees their reputation in the community and goes "well, never buying from them again" or "why would my local pet store sell me this frog!?" I don't imagine that is good for the longevity of their business.


----------



## that Frog Guy

So what happened to the Web Site?

I clicked on the Link and it took me to a Site about God.


----------



## thedude

that Frog Guy said:


> So what happened to the Web Site?
> 
> I clicked on the Link and it took me to a Site about God.


Now it's buydartfrogs.com


----------



## thedude

"Unfortunately today, a lot of people choose not to own these exquisite, captivating, harmless creatures because they associate the phrase "dart frog(s)" with the word "poison". Even some public zoos propagate misinformation by calling their collections "poisonous", when in reality, they aren't. The experts say wild dart frogs in the jungles of South and Central America eat insects that dine on plants laden with plant toxins. In the jungle, the plant toxins are passed to the frog via the ants they eat after those ants became carriers of the plants toxins they (i.e., the ants) ingested. This is much like "you are what you eat." 

Unfortunately, many commercial sellers and breeders refer to their frogs as "poison dart frogs" we assume to emulate the mystique of the wild ancestors and perpetuate the myth (and confusion for would-be frog devotees, but for the name).

We sell all of our frogs under the SAFE brand, and guarantee every SAFE frog and tadpole we sell is completely and totally harmless, perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, NOT poisonous, absolutely beautiful, and fun! Each and every one of our beautiful frogs and tadpoles is the offspring of completely harmless frog parents bred in captivity by us, and always under our care until they find a new home. They are a true product of the United States of America, and are "made" in the U.S.A. not the jungle!"



That last line is pretty great. Pander in anyway you can I suppose...


----------



## hydrophyte

thedude said:


> That last line is pretty great. Pander in anyway you can I suppose...


They could clarify even further and say "...are 'made' in the U.S.A., 'by white people', not in the jungle!"


----------



## markpulawski

Being a manufacturer of frogs myself I will soon be trade marking Laser and Blazer...AND the question why does ones have an S and one have a Z?
These people have taken this to utterly absurd levels, is the "compound in Tennessee" guarded a by automatic weapons? Where is Big SMO when he is really needed?
Amazing how often a lawyer will bring up being sued, hope he remembers that when some idiot allows their 2 year old to pop a SAFE frog into their mouth.....of course that frog will be rich in personality and be able to baby sit that child within a short period of time.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Nothing like kicking back with the morning coffee to see what they`ve done next.
Sorry Sports Center, this is way more entertaining.

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I like how they're now implying that their frogs are safe and not poisonous because they're "bred properly", as if other people who breed them don't breed them properly and thus their frogs are toxic.

And if anything, acquiring breeding pairs and flooding the market with thousands(their claim(dubious at best) is anything but proper breeding.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I have trademarked the alphabet.... Now all yourz words belongz to me!


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I like how they're now implying that their frogs are safe and not poisonous because they're "bred properly", as if other people who breed them don't breed them properly and thus their frogs are toxic.
> 
> And if anything, acquiring breeding pairs and flooding the market with thousands(their claim(dubious at best) is anything but proper breeding.


I know.... It's the whole style of their "effort" that is one of the biggest turn offs for me. I really think they owe the entire hobby community an apology, just for the used car salesman vibe and then they can apologize for the rest.


----------



## Jellyman

I've been reading this and watching all the comments and what I do not see is anyone realizing that places such as Josh's and Black Jungle probably get very little of their business from this small forum. Look at the ads on Kingsnake. These two dominate the Kingsnake ads. If everyone on this forum up and quit the hobby these two sponsors would not be out of business by no means. I'm not saying in anyway that DFW is even remotely the quality of Josh's or Black Jungle, just that if they find an audience for cheap frogs they can hang around for a long time. It does not appear they need this to be "profitable" to pay bills. So, as long as they are squeaking by they can continue to offer cheap frogs and if they build it into selling bugs, then maybe dealing at shows, then they start adding dry goods, and then a little later they start carrying live plants......eventually this could grow into another Josh's or Black Jungle. I doubt that it will but it certainly is a possibility.


----------



## oddlot

Jellyman said:


> I've been reading this and watching all the comments and what I do not see is anyone realizing that places such as Josh's and Black Jungle probably get very little of their business from this small forum. Look at the ads on Kingsnake. These two dominate the Kingsnake ads. If everyone on this forum up and quit the hobby these two sponsors would not be out of business by no means. I'm not saying in anyway that DFW is even remotely the quality of Josh's or Black Jungle, just that if they find an audience for cheap frogs they can hang around for a long time. It does not appear they need this to be "profitable" to pay bills. So, as long as they are squeaking by they can continue to offer cheap frogs and if they build it into selling bugs, then maybe dealing at shows, then they start adding dry goods, and then a little later they start carrying live plants......eventually this could grow into another Josh's or Black Jungle. I doubt that it will but it certainly is a possibility.




There will always be other avenues to sell frogs from,but I think you under estimate how big this forum is to the hobby.That being said,they are selling their frogs really cheap right now,probably for a reason.Like Tom said earlier,If you do a dart frog search in google,all of this crap from our forums and others come up which is probably why they keep doing the name change thing.All signs point to them going under,which is what I'm cheering for.If they had practiced respect for the hobby and business sense like josh's or black jungle,then they may have had a fighting chance.I for one won't EVER buy anything from them and more than likely,most of the THOUSANDS of members we have(and the members from other forums that they burned themselves at)won't either.

Just my opinion (and many others)


----------



## aurvrrat

I have been following this thread off and on from the start, normally I am not one to chime in on the matter, but I had a thought while browsing their site.

Does anyone know if the pictures of the various frogs/tads they are offering are actual pictures of their animals? Some of the pictures look rather familiar, and I would think that for a company that is so very concerned with trademarking every other word on their website they would be concerned about possible ramifications from using someone else's pictures as advertisement.
I also remember that in the beginning the frogs that were pictured were on that grey and black checkered background, yet now those original photos are very scarce on their site.

Just a curiosity.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Jellyman said:


> I've been reading this and watching all the comments and what I do not see is anyone realizing that places such as Josh's and Black Jungle probably get very little of their business from this small forum. Look at the ads on Kingsnake. These two dominate the Kingsnake ads. If everyone on this forum up and quit the hobby these two sponsors would not be out of business by no means. I'm not saying in anyway that DFW is even remotely the quality of Josh's or Black Jungle, just that if they find an audience for cheap frogs they can hang around for a long time. It does not appear they need this to be "profitable" to pay bills. So, as long as they are squeaking by they can continue to offer cheap frogs and if they build it into selling bugs, then maybe dealing at shows, then they start adding dry goods, and then a little later they start carrying live plants......eventually this could grow into another Josh's or Black Jungle. I doubt that it will but it certainly is a possibility.


This forum ain`t small and Black Jungle and Josh do very well by us.

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> This forum ain`t small and Black Jungle and Josh do very well by us.
> 
> John


Yes, they do, but they do even better by those not associated with the forum. I've been told by one of these sponsors that DB is only about 10% of their business.

This is not to say that either was expressing ungratefulness to the forums, quite the contrary.

Sometimes though, as a forum, I think we assign ourselves far more importance than we are due.


----------



## markpulawski

Well they certainly can and probably will do world class damage by taking the Walmart approach, under price everyone and get people hooked, then they have to or will want to come back to us. I don't think they are having a fire sale to get out of the hobby, I think they are trying to hook their first round of customers on a large scale and at those prices it is probably working.


----------



## oddlot

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yes, they do, but they do even better by those not associated with the forum. I've been told by one of these sponsors that DB is only about 10% of their business.
> 
> This is not to say that either was expressing ungratefulness to the forums, quite the contrary.
> 
> Sometimes though, as a forum, I think we assign ourselves far more importance than we are due.


10% is a pretty big chunk when you think about it.If I was getting 10% of my business from one source(and obviously they have quite a few) I'd consider that pretty decent.The other thing is,there are other forums(not just ours)that they have hung themselves at already(not our sponsors  )which would as a whole account for more than a 10% customer base.So what I'm getting at is,those "frog people" or whatever they are called this hour in my opinion will be exposed to alot more people than just our forum,especially with google searches,other forums, and such.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

oddlot said:


> 10% is a pretty big chunk when you think about it.If I was getting 10% of my business from one source(and obviously they have quite a few) I'd consider that pretty decent.The other thing is,there are other forums(not just ours)that they have hung themselves at already(not our sponsors  )which would as a whole account for more than a 10% customer base.So what I'm getting at is,those "frog people" or whatever they are called this hour in my opinion will be exposed to alot more people than just our forum,especially with google searches,other forums, and such.


I agree, I was speaking only to the amount of revenue one of those two sponsors claimed claim from this forum, nothing more or less.


----------



## oddlot

I hear you,I was just thinking out loud.


----------



## edwardsatc

"*Coming Soon! Ask Vic*"

Oh, I can't wait to ask Vic! I need some advice from a real "expert"! 

This should prove to be quite entertaining!


----------



## edwardsatc

Anyone else find their use of the term "variety" annoying? Do they use it in order to avoid the terms locality and morph, or are they just that ignorant? I suspect there's a reason for the use of that particular term ...

I think I'll "Ask Vic".


----------



## cml1287

The original post looks like a rap song sounds on the radio.


----------



## edwardsatc

... and when exactly is "coming soon'? Hell, I'm still waiting for pillows and t-bags and Homer Simpson is still waiting for his flydoh!


----------



## mydumname

The forum is a small portion of people who have frogs. When you hear of large number of imports of frogs or wholesale lots of frogs...they aren't all going to dendroboard users. And at hamburg for example, a large majority of customers never heard of dendroboard. It is nice to know that there are others participating in the hobby. If there wasn't, there would be even more of an over saturation of certain frogs then there is now. Yes it's scary thought as well....some of the conversations ha


----------



## Dale D

"poisonous frogs", are NON toxic, i.e., NOT poisonous if they are captive bred properly"

Their dart frogs are SAFE because they are "bred properly."


----------



## edwardsatc

Name of the Week :

*SafeDartFrogs.com*


----------



## carola1155

what happened to "colorful safe frogs"?

I thought "dart frogs" was misleading? wait a minute... are they going back on something they said? I never would have expected them to do that...


----------



## toksyn

I don't know if there were already posted, but: "USAFROGFROGZOO" and Frog Safe Phenotyping are accessible for those that need a laugh.

Warning: may make you put a fist through a wall.


----------



## edwardsatc

My personal favorite:

"A terrific example of this variation principle, and the motivation behind phenotype mapping of visible traits to determine dominance as a form of purity as displayed within a species, improves with consideration of the Azureus-the only "true" blue frog (pictured). Not long ago the Azureus was believed to be a distinct species-wholly unrelated to Tinctorious ("Tincs") and the many varieties/variations thereof. As it turns out, modern genetic testing proves the Azureus is identical to all other Tincs, and the unique blue appearance is simply a Tinc variation as distinct as people are to one another around the globe."


----------



## oddlot

edwardsatc said:


> My personal favorite:
> 
> "A terrific example of this variation principle, and the motivation behind phenotype mapping of visible traits to determine dominance as a form of purity as displayed within a species, improves with consideration of the Azureus-the only "true" blue frog (pictured). Not long ago the Azureus was believed to be a distinct species-wholly unrelated to Tinctorious ("Tincs") and the many varieties/variations thereof. As it turns out, modern genetic testing proves the Azureus is identical to all other Tincs, and the unique blue appearance is simply a Tinc variation as distinct as people are to one another around the globe."




WTF..........That's all I can say about that!


----------



## redfrogger

As someone who is so God-centered it seems strange that he is playing God himself; creating new frogs...


----------



## oldlady25715

Leave it lawyers to vomit semantic garbage. This diatribe of propaganda can't make sense to experts or beginners.


----------



## Halter

I keep going back to their website and everytime I notice it...something has changed..dramatically. Whether it is their prices, or the lengthy paragraphs of useless bullshit information.

One question I have for you is this...
When you all FIRST starting getting into this hobby, when you evaluated a website or a potential source for purchasing your frogs did you not visit the site over and over to finally come to that final decision of what you are getting?
My point is this: We can hate on them all we want, and i think we should still continue to do so, because what they are doing is unethical and a slap in the face to the hobby. But i honestly think this "business" will not last. The constant changing of domain names, the constant fluctuation of price does not show a healthy business. Any person looking at that can come to a conclusion to see what type of business they are, and hopefully make a good decision from that. I would give these fools another year--unfortunately a year hurting our hobby, but one year, and I would take a bet they will be out of business---you cant segregate the hobbyists and put them down and expect to thrive in this business.
My .02


----------



## edwardsatc

Halter said:


> I keep going back to their website and everytime I notice it...something has changed..dramatically. Whether it is their prices, or the lengthy paragraphs of useless bullshit information.
> 
> One question I have for you is this...
> When you all FIRST starting getting into this hobby, when you evaluated a website or a potential source for purchasing your frogs did you not visit the site over and over to finally come to that final decision of what you are getting?
> My point is this: We can hate on them all we want, and i think we should still continue to do so, because what they are doing is unethical and a slap in the face to the hobby. But i honestly think this "business" will not last. The constant changing of domain names, the constant fluctuation of price does not show a healthy business. Any person looking at that can come to a conclusion to see what type of business they are, and hopefully make a good decision from that. I would give these fools another year--unfortunately a year hurting our hobby, but one year, and I would take a bet they will be out of business---you cant segregate the hobbyists and put them down and expect to thrive in this business.
> My .02


Yep, basically mirrors my thoughts.

Remember them touting all of their premarketing studies? If premarketing studies were done, how does one wind up with this mess:

*Business names* in the past two months

US Dart Frog
USA Frog
USA Frog Zoo
Frog Zoo
Frog Warehouse
Art Frog Warehouse
Dart Frog Warehouse 
Buy Dart Frogs
Safe Dart Frogs

*Domains:* 

buydartfrogs.com
dartfrogwarehouse.com
safedartfrogs.com
wascher.com/usafrogfrogzoo.html

As long as they keep flipping the hobby the finger and advocating mixing morphs and designer frogs, I'll be keeping this thread alive.


----------



## edwardsatc

Name of the Day:

"Buy Safe Frogs"


----------



## mjahnke

Well I hope they can honor their shipping guarantee.

One of the Worst Ice Storms in Years to Unfold From Texas to Kentucky


----------



## Charlie Q

quick, everyone place orders for frogs!


----------



## IndustrialDreamz

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Oh god, I wouldn't wish a Chevette on anyone. That was my mom's first car, no AC, in Houston, in the Summer........


The weather in houston in the summer is horrific these days!
i drove my car in the heat with the windows stuck up. I got sun spots now...


----------



## oddlot

edwardsatc said:


> Name of the Day:
> 
> "Buy Safe Frogs"




So lets guess the next name.........

Arts safe darts or...........

buy arts darts or.......

safe zoo frogs or........


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Every time I see this thread bumped I think

"Oh god now what?"


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Every time I see this thread bumped I think
> 
> "Oh god now what?"


lol. Way, way back in this thread I vowed to stay all over this one "like flies on shit, Ted Cruz on Obamacare, or Rich Frye on Sidney". So, until they address the morph mixing and designer frogs, you can expect at least a daily bump. 

While I'm here ... a note from below an ad containing three different domain names:

*"Note: After we get the www kinks out, BuyDartFrogs.com will always point to us and be useful to the planet to find us, but our domain for our e-commerce site will be SAFEdartfrogs.com in parallel with our trademark SAFE. Many thanks! Vic"*

- The only kink is between someone's ears

- What would be useful to the planet would be for no one to find them

- Who the heck is Vic and wasn't he suppose to be answering questions "soon"? Whoever he is, I hope he keeps up the entertainment!


----------



## Brian317

We guessed it wrong. They didn't change the domain or business name again, but decided to change his own name instead!!! Is this the new trend?!  

That main logo in the middle of the home page is like a horrible mix between the 80's and a really bad car salesman. Feels like I'm looking to buy a car with all the fine print everywhere and different size fonts. I get a headache just looking at that page!!!


----------



## hydrophyte

I wonder if the Sierra Club knows about BuyDartFrogs.com's use of their ad graphic and link(?).


----------



## oddlot

Next You'll have to sign a contract about breeding them, like with some of these high end dog breeders that tell you who's lines you can breed them to and what you can do with them legally.


----------



## Phyllobates

Guys I think I'm in big trouble. None of my frogs were sold to me as SAFE. I'm calling in Hazmat...


----------



## hydrophyte

> *"Note: After we get the www kinks out, BuyDartFrogs.com will always point to us and be useful to the planet to find us, but our domain for our e-commerce site will be SAFEdartfrogs.com in parallel with our trademark SAFE. Many thanks! Vic"*


*www.BuyDartFrogs.com*

_Ruthlessly Assaulting the Mother Tongue Since 2013._​


----------



## Azurel

Luckily for my new venture they haven't used " T-bagyourfrogs.com" yet....Once that happends then you know the end is nigh.


----------



## pa.walt

All I know is I'm not even thinking of buying any frogs this sat. at Hamburg. Nobody has a any "SAFE" frogs for sale.


----------



## Scott

Keep it clean. Keep it on (the regrettable) topic.

s


----------



## whitethumb

exactly. it's a big train wreck and i keep stopping by to catch a glimpse. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Every time I see this thread bumped I think
> 
> "Oh god now what?"


----------



## oddlot

whitethumb said:


> exactly. it's a big train wreck and i keep stopping by to catch a glimpse.



Morbid curiosity?


----------



## whitethumb

i keep coming back because everyone's been so great at informing us all of all their shenanigans. 



oddlot said:


> Morbid curiosity?


----------



## edwardsatc

Not quite sure what the name of the day is. Decide for yourself:


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> Not quite sure what the name of the day is. Decide for yourself:


that's like a hybrid of every name they've had... haha wow


----------



## edwardsatc

Looks like they're making a more concerted effort to target vendors: 

Wholesale & Dealers

I, for one, will be voicing my opinion to vendors about the potential damage this "company" poses to the hobby, and their FU attitude towards hobbyists.

Also, some new customer reviews posted. Oddly, a couple references to fly media and/or flies which I don't think have yet been available through their website ... hmmm.


----------



## Brian317

lol. I think they went full circle and back to art frogs now, as the "d" is not lower cased....again


----------



## Brian317

edwardsatc said:


> Looks like they're making a more concerted effort to target vendors:
> 
> Wholesale & Dealers
> 
> I, for one, will be voicing my opinion to vendors about the potential damage this "company" poses to the hobby, and their FU attitude towards hobbyists.


That link is pretty comical and apparently they never use spell check on anything...


Edit: This is new....
http://safedartfrogs.com/tadcube-tadpole-rearing-habitat.aspx

Funny how they said they never would sell frogs as SUNBEES or otherwise, but they are doing it again. Check out the feeding schedule in the photos as well...

...my brain...it hurts...


----------



## edwardsatc

Brian317 said:


> That link is pretty comical and apparently they never use spell check on anything...


If you think that's comical, check out some of the earlier versions of the site, some of which they have kindly archived for us. Here's a real humdinger:

USA Frog FrogMatch ProgramsDart Frogs FrogMatch Programs


----------



## Mantella71

"Why breed and warehouse frogs when you are the best at your passion, and knowing colorful dart frogs are our passion."

Is this a question or sentence? They need to go back to grammar school.


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> Looks like they're making a more concerted effort to target vendors:
> 
> Wholesale & Dealers
> 
> I, for one, will be voicing my opinion to vendors about the potential damage this "company" poses to the hobby, and their FU attitude towards hobbyists.
> 
> Also, some new customer reviews posted. Oddly, a couple references to fly media and/or flies which I don't think have yet been available through their website ... hmmm.


They have a schedule published at the bottom of that link... Looks like they might have some pretty aggressive travel plans for next year.


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> They have a schedule published at the bottom of that link... Looks like they might have some pretty aggressive travel plans for next year.


That was my initial thought, but upon reading it closer it looks like they are just targeting vendors who will attend those shows. Hard to tell, they aren't always exactly clear in their writing ...


----------



## carola1155

edwardsatc said:


> Hard to tell, they aren't always exactly clear in their writing ...


you can say that again...


----------



## oddlot

ok...Hard to tell, they aren't always exactly clear in their writing ...


----------



## kcexotics

carola1155 said:


> They have a schedule published at the bottom of that link... Looks like they might have some pretty aggressive travel plans for next year.


Oh I hope so...road trip. I'll be there first roady, who's coming with me? You'll get to meet an expert breeder and see SAFE frogs in person. I'll pay gas need someone to pay bail.


----------



## Dale D

edwardsatc said:


> Not quite sure what the name of the day is. Decide for yourself:


Nice to see that Vic has now been added to the logo.


----------



## hydrophyte

Did you guys see this yet?...

TADCUBE


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

hydrophyte said:


> Did you guys see this yet?...
> 
> TADCUBE


/facepalm......


----------



## oddlot

Yeah,because tadpoles love and do well with crappy plastic plants


----------



## Bcs TX

Wholesale & Dealers

"100% Safe and disease free, guaranteed....."
Plus they have " all sales are confidential."

There will be some Tx froggers at Lone Star Reptile Expo this month asking questions, that is a real guarantee.


----------



## Phyllobates

ZookeeperDoug said:


> /facepalm......


LOL. Pretty sure I could hear the slap the collective facepalm across the nation...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Bcs TX said:


> Wholesale & Dealers
> 
> "100% Safe and disease free, guaranteed....."
> Plus they have " all sales are confidential."
> 
> There will be some Tx froggers at Lone Star Reptile Expo this month asking questions, that is a real guarantee.


What what? Where is this? I sooooo wanna be there.


----------



## Ghost vivs

Wait... they are coming here???


This will be fun. 

Casper




Bcs TX said:


> Wholesale & Dealers
> 
> "100% Safe and disease free, guaranteed....."
> Plus they have " all sales are confidential."
> 
> There will be some Tx froggers at Lone Star Reptile Expo this month asking questions, that is a real guarantee.


----------



## Ghost vivs

Lone Star Reptile Expos


Casper




ZookeeperDoug said:


> What what? Where is this? I sooooo wanna be there.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Looks like they plan to be in AZ in February, *IF* they last that long. I'll have to share my opinion with them.


----------



## Bcs TX

From what I read "they are full of smoke and mirrors" they are trying to get vendors from the shows listed to resell their frogs that they buy from them at a discount.


----------



## CAPTAIN RON

I do not think that any dealer/vendors would want to be ridiculed by selling ''SAFE''(Aurora,Sunbee,or any other stupid made up bs names) dart frogs at shows and ruin their business.Froggers are a tough group to fool!


----------



## Ghost vivs

I will be talking to Otis... 

Casper




Bcs TX said:


> From what I read "they are full of smoke and mirrors" they are trying to get vendors from the shows listed to resell their frogs that they buy from them at a discount.


----------



## Mantella71

These people are clowns and appears that karma prevails again!


----------



## whitethumb

keep me in mind.... i'd love to tag along?



ZookeeperDoug said:


> What what? Where is this? I sooooo wanna be there.


----------



## edwardsatc

Looks like their revving up the old science machine again. This is exactly why we don't want them in the hobby:

Expert Understanding

If they only understood how ridiculously ignorant they appear from a scientific standpoint. It's quite obvious they don't understand population genetics or evolution. Rather they just throw out a bunch of terminology in order to appear as if they know what their talking about. They should stop getting their science from wikipedia and actually try to understand it ...

It reads more like ramblings of a psychopath. This page is their one fingered salute to hobbyists!


----------



## Roadrunner

But how do they survive in the wild if an azureus can't find a French Guiana dwarf tinc to breed with to preserve that diversity?

That's a lawyer for you.(Not that all lawyers are bad just that they can find a pathway to a conclusion for anything. Do it and we'll reverse engineer a position to justify it.)


----------



## Scott

Amusing - I've been keeping frogs for 20 years - and I know enough not to call myself an expert.

These jackholes don't know diddly.

s


edwardsatc said:


> Looks like their revving up the old science machine again. This is exactly why we don't want them in the hobby ...


----------



## carola1155

It is just impressively bad... The word "pseudoscience" doesn't even begin to describe it...


----------



## Mantella71

It's even an insult to call it junk science. I have a degree in animal behavior and I've been keeping herps for years. The more I think I know, the more I don't know.


----------



## edwardsatc

Mantella71 said:


> The more I think I know, the more I don't know.


A good scientist realizes exactly that. Questions driven by what we don't understand or know are that which moves science forward. I have multiple degrees in biology, stream ecology, and aquatic toxicology, and what I "know" is miniscule in the overall picture of aquatic sciences no less the biological sciences.


----------



## phender

Its amazing how many wrong ideas they can pull from twisting a couple definitions and taking a quote completely out of context.
Do they not understand that genetic diversity already exists in Azureus. You don't have to mix them with cobalts to create genetic diversity. Just because all Ursus arctos (brown bear, grizzly bear, Kodiak bear, European brown bear, etc....) are the same species it doesn't mean we have to mix the races to have enough genetic diversity to survive. 

What they are talking about isn't any sort of science at all, its just a misrepresentation and twisting of the facts to support their misguided understanding of how this stuff works. Didn't they say somewhere that Dillon got 100% on the biology section of his SAT test??????????


----------



## Bcs TX

Isn't against copyright laws to copy a page from a book on a website without permission from the author's?


----------



## edwardsatc

Bcs TX said:


> Isn't against copyright laws to copy a page from a book on a website without permission from the author's?


I don't really know copyright law but I do know that it disappeared from their business website after certain parties were contacted ...


----------



## carola1155

FROGSafe Phenotyping

still have a pic of that page here ^


----------



## Judy S

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!! I just checked out: FROGSafe Phenotyping ----WTF?????????

Just noticed the tagline "bandwagon"....what????


----------



## FroggyKnight

I'm not sure what is worse, the phenotyping or the "expert understanding". 

Their "expert understanding" is more like a severe beginner misinterpretation. Seriously. Just do _research_ and _learn_ from what _should_ be your customers, the hobbyists. DFW is not too far gone that they cannot learn what they need to from an educated individual with a higher understanding of how our hobby operates and why it does so. They just need to have an open mind and accept the flaws in their business plan. 

I must say that the thing that bothers me the most is how they disregard the importance of the various morphs or tinctorius and auratus. Most of these are valid locale specific populations, NOT man made variaties by selecive breeding for certain traits. Once again, our hobby is NOT the ball python hobby.

To expand on my point, dart frogs are not the only animal where the species exibits unique populations even on a subspecies level. Rhacodactylus leachianus is a testament to this as individuals are often classified by the island it was collected on. Each population is different much like how populations of darts are different.


----------



## Azurel

Hey Donn

I sent you a pm....


----------



## Firawen

"Accordingly, Auratus "poison dart frogs" , Tinctorious "poison dart frogs",*Leucomelas "poison frogs",*Anthonyi,*BiColor, Terribilis, Truncatus and Vittatus, etc ., "poisonous frogs", are*NON toxic, i.e., NOT poisonous*if they are captive bred properly, that is, "MADE" IN THE U.S.A. like we do.* We*guarantee everything we sell has no-relation to–is not the offspring of,*any wild caught or poison(ous) dart frog!"

Damn it, I bred my terribilis improperly again and one escaped and killed my dog...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## purpletang33

Reading through this thread and all of its twists and turns has been quite entertaining! I've been looking at <insert domain of the day>'s website, and can't believe what I'm seeing. I have never done so many head tilts and in this short amount of time!


----------



## Dendroguy

They're trying to say that just because they trademarked SAFE™, no one else produces CB frogs that are largely non-toxic? I'm almost ashamed to call myself a Tennesseean.

D


----------



## LoganR

Does TN still have a state law making "poisonous amphibians" illegal to own? Maybe that is why they stick with the "SAFE" trademark, in spite of how misleading it is.


----------



## oddlot

LoganR said:


> Does TN still have a state law making "poisonous amphibians" illegal to own? Maybe that is why they stick with the "SAFE" trademark, in spite of how misleading it is.


No,they do it because they're morons


----------



## Dendroguy

Seems like they think they're smart with their 'big words'









D


----------



## JJuchems

LoganR said:


> Does TN still have a state law making "poisonous amphibians" illegal to own? Maybe that is why they stick with the "SAFE" trademark, in spite of how misleading it is.


You would be correct, all poisonous amphibian species are banned. While their listing of SAFE maybe their marketing strategy, I am interested in seeing how that holds up in a court of law. 

http://tn.gov/sos/rules/1660/1660-01/1660-01-18.pdf

http://www.reptilelaws.org/tennessee-reptile-laws/


----------



## Scott

Leave it to a Lawyer to tap dance with words ...

s


----------



## edwardsatc

Just when I thought their "expert understanding" couldn't get any worse, they've updated their site:

Expert Understanding

At this point, I'm speechless ... which as many of you know is rare 

I think I'll go puke now


----------



## oddlot

WOW,Their site just keeps getting cornier and cornier.It really makes them seem less the expert breeders they say they are.It's really hard to believe that this guy is a lawyer and actually thinks he knows something about frogs,or business for that matter.If I was a newb and read that crap I would just move on.


----------



## phender

Do tincs and auratus actually even form "pairs" in the wild?


----------



## scoy

I dont even bother clicking on the links anymore. There to far gone.


----------



## kitcolebay

Rumor has it that there is someone out there with the SAFEST (TM) frogs.  They're even personalized!


----------



## Dendroguy

Lötters
LÖTTERS
*LÖTTERS*
*LÖTTERS*
*LÖTTERS*

They really need to cite some more sources if they want to look like the 'experts' they think they are. Any respectable dendrobatid taxonomists would surely disagree, and I'm almost positive Lötters wouldn't like the way they are twisting his words.

D


----------



## markpulawski

So the offspring of 2 Matecho Tincs are by their definition not Matecho because they are hatched and reared in Tennessee and that breeding locality specific frogs is merely line breeding for traits......OMG!!!
I really do feel sorry for these kids, no chance they grow up to be normal successful adults, fanaticism at it worst. Hopefully someone will alert Tennessee Fish & Wildlife that these people are breeding poison animals in a warehouse.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

oddlot said:


> WOW,Their site just keeps getting cornier and cornier.It really makes them seem less the expert breeders they say they are.It's really hard to believe that this guy is a lawyer and actually thinks he knows something about frogs,or business for that matter.If I was a newb and read that crap I would just move on.


You know what Lou, a newb might also be quite taken in by that very colorful website and just start ordering. Which by now after following this thread is just what they`re hoping for.
The sad thing is people are going to buy these frogs and either kill them in a week or release them into the hobby, and there`s not a whole hell of a lot we can do about it and as soon as all the Petcos start selling them it will be the same thing.

John


----------



## Paul G

Maybe someone needs to stop breeding their auratus for a little while? 

kingsnake.com Classifieds: Auratus SALE 70% OFF! Microspot (4mo.) $9.95; Reticulated (4 mo.) $10.49; Blue&Black $11.39, MORE!


----------



## kcexotics

If they get any cheaper I might have to buy a bunch to make my own "SAFER" frogs (_TM_ pending).
I'll be giving away FREE setups, which will include a ziplock bag and a tube of Ambesol. Just place 'SAFE' frogs in bag with Ambesol, shake and place in chest freezer. And you have "SAFER" frogs.


----------



## srrrio

Paul G said:


> Maybe someone needs to stop breeding their auratus for a little while?
> 
> kingsnake.com Classifieds: Auratus SALE 70% OFF! Microspot (4mo.) $9.95; Reticulated (4 mo.) $10.49; Blue&Black $11.39, MORE!


Great .. way to make an already under appreciated dart frog... more so. 
I am going to encourage my local exotic stores not purchase these frogs.


----------



## Jeremy M

Dragonfish said:


> Frog Wholesale
> 
> Interesting page! Looks like their sales pitch to local pet stores.


Quite frankly, this just makes me sick. It's against my every judgement for a target audience for these frogs to be people who need to be told that they have "NO SMELL". I can't imagine these people would be those who have ANY IDEA what their care, natural/captive history or biology would be. The ad seems to be entirely directed towards those who make impulse buys of these frogs. So sad, and absolutely the opposite of what we need.


----------



## InvertaHerp

This whole thing seems fishy. I wouldn't buy. I also don't appreciate the fact that one of their sites is full of religious items and pages.


----------



## Dale D

"USA Frog (d/b/a/ FrogZoo.com) is believed to be the largest breeder of captive bred dart frogs in the world". 

I guess if your going to call yourselves "experts" You might as well go all out with your claims.


----------



## Charlie Q

josh's frogs website claims to be the largest in the USA, so… someone has to be wrong. unfortunately i fear that DFWH has bred their frogs like crazy and just might be the largest...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Don`t ask me why but I just read one of their religious insane rambles, they say Homosexuals are sinners of the bible and should repent.

If you losers are reading this kiss my Italian butt, and I hope your kids get the hell away from you and hit the first Gay Pride Parade they find. I just happen to have those "sinners" in my family and also are friends of mine.
How dare you. 

All the best..

John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Thank you Scott and Tom, I didn`t think that post would see the light of day.

John


----------



## JJuchems

srrrio said:


> Great .. way to make an already under appreciated dart frog... more so.
> I am going to encourage my local exotic stores not purchase these frogs.


I have had a few gecko and snake friends ask about them, so people are questioning the "SAFE" crap. They are "chickenwinging" DFW/USA Frogs/SAFE Frogs? Crap in a Box


----------



## thedude

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t ask me why but I just read one of their religious insane rambles, they say Homosexuals are sinners of the bible and should repent.
> 
> If you losers are reading this kiss my Italian butt, and I hope your kids get the hell away from you and hit the first Gay Pride Parade they find. I just happen to have those "sinners" in my family and also are friends of mine.
> How dare you.
> 
> All the best..
> 
> John


Glad I didn't read any of that shit. I'm really glad this post of yours is number 3,666 though


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Thank you Scott and Tom, I didn`t think that post would see the light of day.
> 
> John


It shouldn't have. While I may share your views of them, this is just really bad forum decorum. 

Take the high road.

I do find it humorous that mods who elsewhere have told people to keep it clean are liking that post.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Reason: Slight cleanup, but really, this is *that* offensive? I didn't think so ...

Offensive, no not really, but still out of line. Like I said, I share the sentiments, but either we have rules or we don't. If this kind of post was anywhere else on the forum other than here.....

So anyway, does this mean the gloves are off and we can ignore the general forum rules and tell DFW in no uncertain terms "How we really feel?"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Meh, sour grapes on my end really. I've been wanting to tee off on these clowns for a while now and am just pissed that you did it ER and didn't get your ass chewed like I did by a mod for speaking your mind.

Anyway, good for you for saying what were all thinking.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Meh, sour grapes on my end really. I've been wanting to tee off on these clowns for a while now and am just pissed that you did it ER and didn't get your ass chewed like I did by a mod for speaking your mind.
> 
> Anyway, good for you for saying what were all thinking.


It`s all good Doug, no worries. I thought it was a little harsh myself. These people are just making us nuts.

John


----------



## Roadrunner

Seems they don't return phone calls or give out a #. I had an old friend call last nite, not knowing I had moved to Michigan looking for some subadults. He said he had his daughter email them since he doesn't have an email address to get them to call him or get a phone #. They may have a lot of frogs to sell but they must not want to do what they have to to sell them as after repeated emails they won't make contact. Do they really have any frogs for sale? Someone should explain that you have to deal with people if you want to sell frogs.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> It`s all good Doug, no worries. I thought it was a little harsh myself. These people are just making us nuts.
> 
> John


Agreed, trust me, I'd like nothing more to really post my feelings, but I've already been warned against doing so. We gotta stick to a proper forum and not come down to their level of bigotry and hatred. Seems like they're the WBC of darts. Maybe we can picket their facility with signs reading.

God Hates Mixing
Thank God for Locale Specific Frogs
God Hates Hybrids


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

frogfarm said:


> Seems they don't return phone calls or give out a #. I had an old friend call last nite, not knowing I had moved to Michigan looking for some subadults. He said he had his daughter email them since he doesn't have an email address to get them to call him or get a phone #. They may have a lot of frogs to sell but they must not want to do what they have to to sell them as after repeated emails they won't make contact. Do they really have any frogs for sale? Someone should explain that you have to deal with people if you want to sell frogs.


They're paranoid. They don't know how to separate those of us who are calling and seeing what we can get them to admit to on the phone and actual customers.


----------



## whitethumb

that's what i was thinking. it sucks to have to run a business that way. maybe by running it that way, they'll see the grass is already greener?



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They're paranoid. They don't know how to separate those of us who are calling and seeing what we can get them to admit to on the phone and actual customers.


----------



## Charlie Q

How many people are calling on a regular basis to find out more concerning their business practices, and not to buy frogs?


----------



## InvertaHerp

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Don`t ask me why but I just read one of their religious insane rambles, they say Homosexuals are sinners of the bible and should repent.
> 
> If you losers are reading this kiss my Italian butt, and I hope your kids get the hell away from you and hit the first Gay Pride Parade they find. I just happen to have those "sinners" in my family and also are friends of mine.
> How dare you.
> 
> All the best..
> 
> John



Okay, thats the last straw. I have several gay family members and friends. Get them out of the hobby.


----------



## Dendroguy

Welcome to the Bible Belt y'all. Where religious folks try to talk down to taxonomists and hobbyists about evolution and natural selection.

D


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I think we have enough ammunition against them that is on subject and hobby related, that we don't need to attack their religious zealotry. Also, I think doing so might also be counter productive. No doubt they'll use it against us. I mean look at how they twist a single sentence out of context to suit their needs. No doubt they'll just claim all our objections to what they're doing are because we just hate Christians.


----------



## edwardsatc

Dendroguy said:


> Welcome to the Bible Belt y'all. Where religious folks try to talk down to taxonomists and hobbyists about evolution and natural selection.
> 
> D


This isn't the place to be mocking someone due to their religious beliefs. Attempts to discredit them based on their religious views is way off base. It has no value to the discussion at hand, is counterproductive, and devalues the fundamental arguments of this thread. This discussion has been about their husbandry and business practices and how those practices are perceived to be detrimental to the hobby.

I'll be the first to admit that I've gone after them for some trivial stuff and mocked the way in which they conduct their business. But, in my opinion, dragging religion into this is just childish and ignorant.


----------



## toksyn

I can agree that dragging them through the mud about religion would normally, and for the most part here, be out of place. However, you cannot deny that remarks were made, remarks that, in at least this man's opinion, have less to do with religion and more to do with discriminatory bigotry. I refuse to support any establishments with open hostility toward and "moral" or "scientific" reasons for the discrimination and dehumanization of our fellow man. I don't think this is something that should just be swept under the rug.

Additionally, their willful reinterpretation of scientific literature, dogmatic "teaching", and downright offensive self-labeled expertise, seems right in line with their religious attitude (with increasing rigidity the more it deviates from the popular interpretations). I'm not saying that he's a religious man, therefore he's bad. I'm saying, read what they've posted publicly, *the tone and content*, and compare it with how they are running their business and marketing. This is absolutely not acceptable.

Additionally, why is it that you're allowed to criticize nearly anything about any other human, including the sexual orientation that they are born with, and it never gets met with nearly the amount of censorship and ironic anger as anything with a hint of God, Muhammad, or Vishnu? This is a mostly rhetorical question. I'm really, really tired of this faith-induced friction that creates stupid, violent conflict, and the prevailing attitude is that it's acceptable to mock and demonize the minority - this same attitude is shared everywhere, and it's why there are problems.

/soapbox


----------



## thedude

toksyn said:


> I can agree that dragging them through the mud about religion would normally, and for the most part here, be out of place. However, you cannot deny that remarks were made, remarks that, in at least this man's opinion, have less to do with religion and more to do with discriminatory bigotry. I refuse to support any establishments with open hostility toward and "moral" or "scientific" reasons for the discrimination and dehumanization of our fellow man. I don't think this is something that should just be swept under the rug.
> 
> Additionally, their willful reinterpretation of scientific literature, dogmatic "teaching", and downright offensive self-labeled expertise, seems right in line with their religious attitude (with increasing rigidity the more it deviates from the popular interpretations). I'm not saying that he's a religious man, therefore he's bad. I'm saying, read what they've posted publicly, *the tone and content*, and compare it with how they are running their business and marketing. This is absolutely not acceptable.
> 
> Additionally, why is it that you're allowed to criticize nearly anything about any other human, including the sexual orientation that they are born with, and it never gets met with nearly the amount of censorship and ironic anger as anything with a hint of God, Muhammad, or Vishnu? This is a mostly rhetorical question. I'm really, really tired of this faith-induced friction that creates stupid, violent conflict, and the prevailing attitude is that it's acceptable to mock and demonize the minority - this same attitude is shared everywhere, and it's why there are problems.
> 
> /soapbox


Well said. I had the same thought. What they said is very offensive, and they are hiding behind religion to make it "ok" for them to be discriminating. It's an entirely new reason to not do business with them. I'm not religious, but I would have no issue purchasing frogs from anyone who was religious. But once you start accusing an entire group of people of being bad based on their sexual orientation, that's a huge line to draw. No matter what your religion or lack of religion is. Period.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Censorship isn't the answer and this shouldn't be swept under the rug. It's good that this has been brought up. 

My only suggestion is for us to moderate our tone and tread carefully so as not to allow them to present this argument as one stemming only from our contempt for their aberrant religious fundamentalism, when the really important argument should be about their hobby related problems, at least here.

By all means, put them on blast for this if you think it is important or relevant. 

Lemme say this, I love me some Chic-fil-A, but I'll never shop their again; DFW could do everything right from a hobby standpoint, they could be legally breeding and importing mysteriosus and selling them for less than their Auratus prices, and I still wouldn't spend a dime with them based on their bigotry.

Really this crap is just the icing on the cake when it comes to dealing with them.


----------



## Scott

Agreed - it's good that it's been brought up.

But there will not be an argument here about whether it's right/wrong/good/bad/etc etc ...

DFW is the topic.

Kinda/sorta where Doug was with his post yesterday evening I do believe.

Stick to the topic. Drop the side topic. We sorta felt the Enlightened One's pain (willing to bet we ALL know someone ... ), so it stayed.

On topic please.

s



ZookeeperDoug said:


> Censorship isn't the answer and this shouldn't be swept under the rug. It's good that this has been brought up.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok, I`d like to apologize for taking this thread off topic with my religious post. It hit a little too close to home for me and I spoke out of anger and frustration. As far as being "childish and ignorant" I respectfully disagree. They deserve everything they have coming to them and more. Just thinking about these people makes me sick.
As far as all you "sinners" go, never give up the fight and pray for a cure.
Don`t worry, this is my last post in this thread.

John


----------



## Scott

Agreed John - but that's the end of the sideshow.

Anyone else posting on that particular side topic - go find/create your own thread (preferably in TDome).

s

[edit: ANY FURTHER DISCOURSE on this will be removed (as I've just removed two posts ... )]


----------



## kcexotics

Well back on topic then.
Despite the frog name changes, idiocracy, bigotry, price gouging, trademarks, and complete disrespect for the hobby and hobbyists. Each and every new person they bring into the hobby will benefit us. In some way or another down the road. It's up to each individual to research who they are buying there frogs from to determine if they want to do business with them. You should always be proud of were your animals come from.
*BUT* 
I saw a post in another fourm were Dillon's dad was trying to explain why he felt it was OK to breed any tinc to any tinc or any auratus to any auratus. This is really my ONLY concern with them. 
Are they bastardizing/hybridizing frogs or line breeding for specific traits????


----------



## Mantella71

"instant karma is going to get you, knock you right in the head"


----------



## Dendroguy

kcexotics said:


> Well back on topic then.
> Despite the frog name changes, idiocracy, bigotry, price gouging, trademarks, and complete disrespect for the hobby and hobbyists. Each and every new person they bring into the hobby will benefit us. In some way or another down the road. It's up to each individual to research who they are buying there frogs from to determine if they want to do business with them. You should always be proud of were your animals come from.
> *BUT*
> I saw a post in another fourm were Dillon's dad was trying to explain why he felt it was OK to breed any tinc to any tinc or any auratus to any auratus. This is really my ONLY concern with them.
> Are they bastardizing/hybridizing frogs or line breeding for specific traits????


Link?

D


----------



## oldlady25715

I agree that religion is not fair target and that we should take the higher road, but can we still poke fun at the fact that this guy is a megalomaniac lawyer trademarking off-base and incorrect terminology, and carefully publishing hyperbole about hybridizing frog locales?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Dendroguy said:


> Link?
> 
> D





> Members are not allowed to promote competing forums anywhere on DB. This includes in links, signatures, profiles, PMs, posts.


Sadly, our forum rules would prevent anyone from answering inch, technically even in Private message.


----------



## Mantella71

"Welcome! 
We breed and raise all of the most popular and sought after varieties, have the largest in-stock inventory anywhere, and we sell them all at wholesale prices under our SAFE brand. We love these frogs, and are not shy about our quality either! It shows in the *varioues* age groups we sell, the diversity of our in-stock inventory, our industry innovations, family commitment to customer service, and the fact we hand select your frogs as a best match to any specific desires and wishes you may have in the areas of color hue and pattern."

"various", have these people ever heard of spell check? Also the way they describe the attributes of the frogs sounds like they are selling an outfit or an inanimate object ("we hand select your frogs as a best match to any specific desires and wishes you may have in the areas of color hue and pattern.") 
Sorry but this way of looking at animals disgusts me, sad.


----------



## cml1287

This thread blows my mind. People who are considered to be (by this forum) pioneers in the dart frog community/knowledge are committed to keeping this thread alive, while simultaneously ignoring threads seeking actual advice and knowledge, as well as private messages. 

To the people who are dead set on not letting this thread die; we get it. By this point, everyone here isn't going to conduct business with these folks. Your efforts that you insist on aren't in vein. But can we get back to business, please? 

There are people here who are seeking advice, and it's being ignored because you want to pick apart someone's religion. 

I guess it's bothersome that the same people who are dead set on education and knowledge are the same exact ones turning this into a set of 90210.


----------



## oldlady25715

cml1287 said:


> This thread blows my mind. People who are considered to be (by this forum) pioneers in the dart frog community/knowledge are committed to keeping this thread alive, while simultaneously ignoring threads seeking actual advice and knowledge, as well as private messages.
> 
> To the people who are dead set on not letting this thread die; we get it. By this point, everyone here isn't going to conduct business with these folks. Your efforts that you insist on aren't in vein. But can we get back to business, please?
> 
> I guess it's bothersome that the same people who are dead set on education and knowledge are the same exact ones turning this into a set of 90210.


There's a strategy involved here, which is to keep the thread active to get hits on search engines for that company, thus informing would be buyers that Dart Frog Warehouse or Art Frogs is not the best choice. Its been working--they changed their name three times. 

Oh, and I recommended 1/4" glass lid to another user earlier today


----------



## markpulawski

cml1287 said:


> This thread blows my mind. People who are considered to be (by this forum) pioneers in the dart frog community/knowledge are committed to keeping this thread alive, while simultaneously ignoring threads seeking actual advice and knowledge, as well as private messages.
> 
> To the people who are dead set on not letting this thread die; we get it. By this point, everyone here isn't going to conduct business with these folks. Your efforts that you insist on aren't in vein. But can we get back to business, please?
> 
> There are people here who are seeking advice, and it's being ignored because you want to pick apart someone's religion.
> 
> I guess it's bothersome that the same people who are dead set on education and knowledge are the same exact ones turning this into a set of 90210.


Sounds like you have some questions that did not get answered and very likely questions that have been answered numerous times however keep asking, someone will get to them. As for keeping this thread alive, if you don't think indiscriminately pouring possibly hundreds of hybrid morph dart frogs into our hobby is not the most injurious thing going on you just don't get it. These people are the biggest threat this hobby has seen in many years and if there is not a constant reminder to all how bad this is as long is it is alive then we as a community are doing a disservice to the hobby we all love. Some of the things these hate mongers are doing may not be fixable for some time and the more we can prevent up front damage the better off we will all be.

ps Milwaukee comes from the Indian name Mille Wau Kee......hope this helps


----------



## Judy S

so if someone is determined to find that "link" you'd have to PM the member, disclosing your email address to them for a private, private exchange of info...hmmmm


----------



## reptiles12

After getting out of the hobby for a little, to jump back on and see all of you defending our hobby is truly amazing. So thanks to all of you


----------



## Dendro Dave

* The hobby names for the auratus varieties are based on color observations and nothing more. (For example, Green & black is, yes, green & black, and yet all auratus seem to be from some mixed source because observation of the offspring yield variants called by different names. Stated another way, all auratus pairs yield variation in color and pattern and are not "true" anything. For example, green and bronze, aqua and bronze can come from the same parents, but the hobby counter to that fact is yet another question: "where were they caught, i.e., what locale?" Captive bred frogs are not caught and the question is irrelevant. *

OMG... They just miss or completely dismiss the point that we want frogs that represent a locale or population, including the inherent diversity within that population. Their position is basically "You're stupid and what you want is wrong... We'll sell you this instead!!!"

Admittedly there has been some line breeding like with superblue auratus, but just dismissing the whole idea of locality, morphs or specific populations and/or genetic diversity based on this logic and a few examples like superblues is wrong, and I think it is just self serving to their financial agenda. They want to invalidate all this in order to serve their designer dart frog plans. 

At this point they have basically declared war on the hobby that they draw their customer base from. I didn't take many business courses in college, but that seems counter intuitive/productive. (As evidenced by all this drama hampering their business efforts).

*"Captive bred frogs are not caught and the question is irrelevant."*
....Seriously? Well I guess scientists, zoos, and any captive breeding program that has worked with specific localities, morphs, subspecies etc..etc.. are all morons. They are basically saying that being captive bred renders the genetic heritage and integrity of that locale, morph null and void for the purposes of our hobby and as "pets"... Well gee, thanks for making that judgement for us all! The majority of people in the hobby seem to disagree, so again they are telling us all to go screw ourselves. From their position what we think/want/know is all wrong, and they are going to sell us what's "right"  I support your right to disagree, but not to create a business that operates on principles that undermine and disrespect the entire community, and the animals. 

Oh wait here they address the issue finally... (I hadn't read that far before I started this post).
*Thus, the hobbyist prefers to restrict the definition of line breeding in the context of selective, controlled, breeding of frogs to accentuate certain specific visible traits. This is often presented in the context of "trying to preserve the natural state of the imported line", or seeking to preserve the original variety. Either way, it is line breeding because it is an attempt to minimize variation, or control it, but adaptation and varietal interbreeding if necessary is the very thing that keeps all living species alive in nature, i.e., the wild. Hence, what the hobbyist does to restrict the sharing of genetic in an environment requiring little survivability skill in the captive context, stunts the variety. The end point of course is where the inbred varietal combination cannot reproduce.*

Yes this is what most of us want to the highest degree that is possible/practical. What right do you have to decide this is wrong? How do you justify disrespecting the consensus of the hobby and trying to undermine the hobby with your phenotyped designer BS frogs?

Yes, at some point with some species/morphs it may be unsustainable due to genetic issues that arise from inbreeding such as infertility. At some point we may have to "mix" to keep these captive populations healthy enough to persist. But I don't know if we even have one example in the hobby yet where frogs have become so inbred or whatever that they have started to become infertile and no longer viable in captivity. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water using this kinda logic and you're doing it not for the benefit of the frogs/hobby but for your pocket book and to further own designer dart frog agenda. 

You are not righteous rebels going against the grain for the sake of the frogs and the hobby. You are self righteous exploiters of these animals and our hobby for your own gain. 

You disagree with the consensus? You want the hobby to go in another direction? Talk to us!, discuss it!... I'd agree that some day we are going to have to take hard look at how we manage some of our captive frogs and consider "mixing" to keep them viable, but we aren't there yet and it isn't your place to take matters into your own hands. Don't dismiss us all, disrepect us and make decisions for us... especially on a comercial scale.


*Additional note:*

Another complaint I have and a wrong turn you've made are overly complicated BS sounding statements like this...

*Assuming survival of the species is most critical, and captive bred populations do not influence the wild populations and vice versa, and given captive bred frogs live considerably longer than their wild cousins provided they are not line and inbred, adaptation for survival is not an issue. Thus, when the fanfare of a "new Tinc" is on the horizon of the hobby, it would be good for all to know what that actually means. It, in fact and as a matter of fact, means a variation in the varietal sense is now being marketed as something new, not a new species, but variety. Hence, the "discovery" is inversely proportional to the depth of information the hobbyist already possesses about species identification and whether or not they "agree" with the experts like Lotters, etc.*

Ok, not bragging, but just making a point...
I have an IQ of 130+ (As averaged from several tests). I have scored 99%+ for reading comprehension on every standardized test I've taken (I've taken quite a few). I am given to being overly complicated and long winded in my own writing style (as evidenced by this post),  but man it is a real chore to sit down and pick apart a paragraph like that and try to make sense of it. 

Seriously dude, lay off the lawyer speak/double talk BS, and talk to your prospective customers like real people instead of people you're trying to sue in court or screw in some contract. It does not help your case, nor does sticking your fingers in your ears while screaming "nah nah na bla bla bla nah nah nah!" with the continuous website updates as your only real interaction/response to the community. 

I am continually disgusted by your lack of respect for our hobby community, and the animals. The smoke you keep trying to blow up our butts and self righteous approach you take in an attempt to do business within our community and just in awe/fear of this skewed little reality you've carved out for yourself to live in, and which seem to be attempting to drag us all into.

You're dragging your family down with you and setting a terrible example. You've made an enemy of basically everyone here. What are the odds that in the end you are actually in the right here? ...Almost 0.

*You are not the hero of this story.*

(Sorry for the Rant, but it is just stupid for you to persist at this point... Go away.)


----------



## oddlot

cml1287 said:


> This thread blows my mind. People who are considered to be (by this forum) pioneers in the dart frog community/knowledge are committed to keeping this thread alive, while simultaneously ignoring threads seeking actual advice and knowledge, as well as private messages.
> 
> To the people who are dead set on not letting this thread die; we get it. By this point, everyone here isn't going to conduct business with these folks. Your efforts that you insist on aren't in vein. But can we get back to business, please?
> 
> There are people here who are seeking advice, and it's being ignored because you want to pick apart someone's religion.
> 
> I guess it's bothersome that the same people who are dead set on education and knowledge are the same exact ones turning this into a set of 90210.



Really?There's been an average of 3-10 posts a day here which no one said you had to read.You make it sound like everyone is posting here all day and no where else on the site.There are "0" threads that are unanswered that I've read.Don't plan on this thread dying anytime soon so you'll have to deal with it or not read it.Just because you don't feel it's important doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.Sometimes if threads get ignored it's because the same questions have been asked hundreds of times before and can easily be found by using the search feature which gets to be annoying because someone is too lazy to it up and do some research.If you feel your questions haven't been answered (and answered a million times before) pm me and I'll take care of your questions,if not don't go bashing a different thread because you don't like the content or fell ignored because of it.


----------



## frogface

Horrible, just horrible. 

Hey mods, this thread needs to pop up as mandatory reading for everyone who visits the site


----------



## frogface

Wait just a minute! Have you guys read the reviews on US Dart Frog? Did you read a review from a *Frog Face*? THIS IS NOT ME! Apparently, frogface is a very common name. I now believe all of their reviews to be suspect. You'd better check to see if your own names are on there 



> I purchase some frogs, I was very impressed how healthy, fat and colorful they are... Oh bye the way I payed close to nothing for them I recommended to all.
> Frog Face LA...


----------



## FroggyKnight

dendro dave. I cried after reading your post…...


----------



## oddlot

frogface said:


> Wait just a minute! Have you guys read the reviews on US Dart Frog? Did you read a review from a *Frog Face*? THIS IS NOT ME! Apparently, frogface is a very common name. I now believe all of their reviews to be suspect. You'd better check to see if your own names are on there



You should have copyrighted your name  I wonder if they are taking respected peoples names from here and per*j*uring their comments


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

If they`re using my name you really know their f***ed up.

???


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

frogface said:


> Wait just a minute! Have you guys read the reviews on US Dart Frog? Did you read a review from a *Frog Face*? THIS IS NOT ME! Apparently, frogface is a very common name. I now believe all of their reviews to be suspect. You'd better check to see if your own names are on there


Boy, just when you think you know someone....

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I highly suspect that quite a few of their reviews are fabricated.


----------



## oddlot

Enlightened Rogue said:


> If they`re using my name you really know their f***ed up.
> 
> ???


John they're not that stupid


----------



## Brian317

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I highly suspect that quite a few of their reviews are fabricated.


I agree. I'll go a little further and doubt they have sold many frogs at all...let alone got all those reviews from "sales"


----------



## redfrogger

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I highly suspect that quite a few of their reviews are fabricated.


Just look at all the grammatical errors throughout the reviews and their website.... hmmm


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

oddlot said:


> John they're not that stupid


I don`t know about that Lou.

John


----------



## oddlot

haha,you have a point


----------



## Dendroguy

This whole ordeal makes me want to punch something. I may have to head on down to their NC show...

D


----------



## frogface

Dendroguy said:


> This whole ordeal makes me want to punch something. I may have to head on down to their NC show...
> 
> D


Their NC show? Someone send me the info on this show please.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Dendroguy said:


> This whole ordeal makes me want to punch something. I may have to head on down to their NC show...
> 
> D


Road trip anyone?
We can all go as drag queens!!!!

Ok, I promised Scott I would cool it.

John


----------



## Dendroguy

The Charlotte Repticon.

D


----------



## phender

Dendroguy said:


> This whole ordeal makes me want to punch something. I may have to head on down to their NC show...
> 
> D


I don't think they are going to any of the shows they have listed. They just want to sell frogs to dealers who will be attending those shows.


----------



## frogface

Dendroguy said:


> The Charlotte Repticon.
> 
> D



I don't see them on the Vendor list but then I'm having trouble keeping up with all the name changes


----------



## frogface

phender said:


> I don't think they are going to any of the shows they have listed. They just want to sell frogs to dealers who will be attending those shows.


Interesting. I don't see any dart frog vendors on the Charlotte list. Perhaps they have miscalculated how popular dart frogs are. Oops!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Kris,
Jan. 18-19
Raleigh NC Reptile Expo
State Fairgrounds- Scott Building

John


----------



## frogface

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Kris,
> Jan. 18-19
> Raleigh NC Reptile Expo
> State Fairgrounds- Scott Building
> 
> John


Thanks John. Yea I'll be there. It will give me a chance to catch up with all my dart frog vending friends


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

They will also be at White Plains NY Jan 05

John


----------



## easternversant

It is bad news bears that these people are vending at shows. I might actually have to drive out to the Raleigh show. 

"Are these safe?"
"Yes."
*Begins licking frogs indiscriminately*


----------



## frogface

easternversant said:


> It is bad news bears that these people are vending at shows. I might actually have to drive out to the Raleigh show.
> 
> "Are these safe?"
> "Yes."
> *Begins licking frogs indiscriminately*


LMAO! Oh my herp vet sets up a table at these shows to give out exotic animal care info. Maybe I can convince her to give a little talk on how not-safe and not-disease free frogs are.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

By all means feel free to pay them a visit and give them our love-
Wholesale & Dealers

John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I provided a linc to their upcoming show`s but it has to be approved first. If anyone needs it just send me a pm.

John


----------



## Scott

As others have said - that link is probably not a link of THEIR shows.

It's just a link of shows that they're hoping some dealer or another will have their frogs.

Misleading as hell (just like the rest of their site). The same link has already been posted a few times also.

s


Enlightened Rogue said:


> I provided a linc to their upcoming show`s but it has to be approved first. If anyone needs it just send me a pm.
> 
> John


----------



## oddlot

After reading that loser link,I have to agree they don't plan on selling them themselves.I really can't see any vendors that would be dumb enough to ruin their own name by selling their trash though.That would be like putting a nail in their own coffin by association.I also found at least 10 really bad and obvious grammatical errors.


----------



## Azurel

In reality with them selling on Kingsnake the target isn't the hobby but they are the biggest threat to it.

The only real way that they will be put out to pasture will be those in the hobby that have excess frogs go on Kingsnake and under cut their prices while pointing out their flaws and questioning their ideology. We can post in this thread till we are blue, red in the face but it in the short run it will not effect them.

Those that frequent Kingsnake are in most cases not in the hobby or frequent the boards. They are outside the hobby and will be or could be caught up and lured by the fancy website, the trademarks and misguided ramblings of science.

At this point in the game it is going to come down to business, supply, demand and prices...The only way they will be effected is making sales low. 

They have overhead that overhead is a burden if they cannot meet that cost then it becomes difficult to do business. They will then have a choice to make. Keep going and draing resources or sink more of their private capital. 

At some point the use of personal cash and resources becomes a threat to their life and limb. That will be the point they need to be pushed to, to get them out of the hobby and remove the threat they present themselves.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Their marketing studies are with real stores, not pet shops. When can I expect to find SAFE frogs at the sharper image?


----------



## Azurel

epiphytes etc. said:


> Their marketing studies are with real stores, not pet shops. When can I expect to find SAFE frogs at the sharper image?


Or Walmart right next to the Betta fish....lol


----------



## toksyn

Why is "crybabies" one of the tags of this thread?


----------



## carola1155

toksyn said:


> Why is "crybabies" one of the tags of this thread?


Because some people find it entertaining to anonymously put tags on threads that they don't agree with instead of actually posting and trying to address the issues.

The questionable tags have been removed.


----------



## jacobi

Has anyone actually spoken to them since all this has been going on?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Scott said:


> As others have said - that link is probably not a link of THEIR shows.
> 
> It's just a link of shows that they're hoping some dealer or another will have their frogs.
> 
> Misleading as hell (just like the rest of their site). The same link has already been posted a few times also.
> 
> s


You`re right, there`s probably no way in hell they can attend all those shows. But, if some dealer has a table set up at some show we can always ask the history of the frogs right?
We have people from across the country who are members here and attend all kinds of shows. The only vendors I deal with at White Plains are Jeremy/Rich and Black Jungle.
But I will be asking other vendors the history of their frogs, and if THAT name comes up we will have a lovely conversation.

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

jacobi said:


> Has anyone actually spoken to them since all this has been going on?


They don't/can't post here anymore. They've chosen to alienate themselves completely from the hobby. Despite owing where they are today to the very hobby they spurn. Dillion learned from a lot of people here. I've talked to some of them, and to a person, they regret helping him based on what we know now,


----------



## edwardsatc

Buy SAFE Dart Frogs

Some interesting new names:

Patriot
Samurai
Peridot
Deepsea

Hmm, let's compare that to what they say about the names for morphs/locales in the hobby: 



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Thus, when the fanfare of a "new Tinc" is on the horizon of the hobby, it would be good for all to know what that actually means. It, in fact and as a matter of fact, means a variation in the varietal sense is now being marketed as something new, not a new species, but variety.
> 
> "The hobby names for the auratus varieties are based on color observations and nothing more."
> 
> "The hobby names as applied to frogs bred in captivity suggests line breeding or the generic nature of the name because they (i.e. the names) bear no relation to taxonomy per Lotters ..."


Oh the hypocrisy.


----------



## edwardsatc

_*{insert current business name here} !!! Where every customer is greeted with a one fingered salute and given our trademarked FU™ treatment.

We are only source for STUPID™ and utterly ridiculous research and opinions about dart frogs in the United States. Every statement made by us is completely harmful, 100% NON-sense, perfectly ridiculous, and beautifully displays our ignorance and incompetence. GUARANTEED! *_

* trademarks used herein are for illustrative purposes only and are not real , blah, blah, blah ...


----------



## edwardsatc

At least they keep me laughing ....



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> After observing thousands and thousands of our SAFE frogs, and hundreds and hundreds of each variety, we can say there are *"frogality" traits* (like personality) of these frogs, and the frogality notes are provided for each.


Oh, the lengths I would go to see more of these "frogality" notes. Thousands of frogs and somehow they've found the time to document the "frogality" of each. Mmm hmm, sure.

Some notes contained in the link:



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> "As an auratus, it is a gentle frog, and looks for a trusting/bonding friendship with his/her owner."
> 
> "They are not shy or timid, but reserved. They do look around a lot, but try not to be seen looking. Coy is a good word for their demeanor. Smart."
> 
> "They adore attention, but need familiarity first. They like to look at people "
> 
> "All of our have fantastic tinctorius conformation like that shown in the representative pic. They breed well under if pampered."


I wonder what "frogality" traits they have documented with mixed morph frogs?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok, lets see if I`ve got this according to them-
Tinctorius Azuerus are now Malibu and Blue and Black Auratus are now Deepsea and Peridot.

I don`t know if I should laugh, cry or bark at the moon.

John


----------



## frogface

Auratus adore attention? So when I walk by the tank and they dive under the leaf litter, it's a little attention seeking game they are playing with me. We are such good friends since we've bonded


----------



## Azurel

It just keeps getting more bizarre all the time....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

frogface said:


> Auratus adore attention? So when I walk by the tank and they dive under the leaf litter, it's a little attention seeking game they are playing with me. We are such good friends since we've bonded


I was the same way Kris until we became friends.

John


----------



## frogface

They are going to have people mauling their darts trying to make them tame. I predict lots of stress deaths and frog jerky from dropped darts


----------



## PumilioTurkey

Is this some elaborate ruse?


I mean the website cries "RETARDED" just by the use of flashy colors etc.


----------



## Cfrog

edwardsatc said:


> At least they keep me laughing ....
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, the lengths I would go to see more of these "frogality" notes. Thousands of frogs and somehow they've found the time to document the "frogality" of each. Mmm hmm, sure.
> 
> Some notes contained in the link:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what "frogality" traits they have documented with mixed morph frogs?


Not to make light of any disease, but wouldn't morph frogs come out schizophrenic?


----------



## Dendroguy

What about my pumilio? What is their frogality? I think I see a new business...getting ones frogality read for three easy payments of $19.95!

D


----------



## JayMillz

Are there any other lawyers other than Rick in the community that could rock their world with false advertising and all of their other BS?


----------



## Judy S

Personally, I have dibs on Etsy with little flashy collars, booties, and leashes to match...hey, the designer frogs deserve only the best designer duds...Maybe they would let me hook up with them with a small percentage for all the successful contacts I'm sure they have established... Really wish that Pumilo would grace us with a futuristic photoshopped version...of my vision...I think that even Paris Hilton would want her very own designer frog decked out with her "branded" frog outfitties....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Just what we need Judy is Paris Hilton involved.
I`m thinking maybe Lindsay Lohan......that`ll fix em!

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

FroggyKnight said:


> dendro dave. I cried after reading your post…...


Why because it is long and convoluted?  ...I was trying to imitate Safeusadesignerdartfrogwharehousescrewyouhobbycommunity.com's writing style (They're next new trademark I'm sure) . I think I failed though... It was still to coherent. 



redfrogger said:


> Just look at all the grammatical errors throughout the reviews and their website.... hmmm


Yes... which makes the overly complicated lawyer speak even harder for the average person to follow. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> They don't/can't post here anymore. They've chosen to alienate themselves completely from the hobby. Despite owing where they are today to the very hobby they spurn. Dillion learned from a lot of people here. I've talked to some of them, and to a person, they regret helping him based on what we know now,


That's sad. I don't think there is anything to do but give everyone the best info we can but it is sad when someone learns enough to be dangerous from us, then flips off the entire community and turns their back on us to exploit the frogs for money. 



frogface said:


> Auratus adore attention? So when I walk by the tank and they dive under the leaf litter, it's a little attention seeking game they are playing with me. We are such good friends since we've bonded


Shameless marketing attempt to "cutesy" up the frogs and sell them as impulse buys to ignorant prospective buyers. Another example of unethical business practices on their part.


----------



## Dizzle21

Judy S said:


> Personally, I have dibs on Etsy with little flashy collars, booties, and leashes to match...hey, the designer frogs deserve only the best designer duds...Maybe they would let me hook up with them with a small percentage for all the successful contacts I'm sure they have established... Really wish that Pumilo would grace us with a futuristic photoshopped version...of my vision...I think that even Paris Hilton would want her very own designer frog decked out with her "branded" frog outfitties....


SO what happens when my Auratus get overly attached? Are they going to offer a pocket vivarium too? I sure hope the T-bags will fit in my pockets. I just want the best for my designer frogs.


----------



## Judy S

Dizzle...if designed well enough, my Vanzos can fit neatly in a pendant...wow...what a statement..The runway will be abuzze...and for the larger darts...instead of a overvalued "name brand gold watch"...a tiny viv with your very own Azeurus...or better, a matching yellow terrib to whatever color you choose to wear...I believe DFW has something to match...


----------



## Dizzle21

Judy S said:


> . ...I believe DFW has something to match...


Thats too bad i just trademarked and patented the idea, they can take it up with my lawyer.


----------



## Mantella71

Anthropomorphism, say it with me safe dart frog owners. I cannot stand when idiotic people do this. 

"Just toss one in the bottom of your enclosure and watch the frogs learn to *play on it*, and feed from the abundance of microlife that crawl out when walked on. "

Can't wait to get home from work and play with my frogs. Maybe I can teach them how to fetch


----------



## yerbamate

So, is the next step a boycott of businesses that accept and resell DFW junk? Or at least a general statement put out at shows or sent to businesses warning of the hazards that DFW presents? It does take it to the next level, but is that what is needed or are folks just content to vent about it on this thread with no further action needed? Just curious is the problem is as bad as it is made out to be. Thoughts?


----------



## oddlot

No real,well respected vendor would sell their crap.No one I know would buy from them or sell their junk.


----------



## Scott

You're wrong.

Way too many vendors just care about the price. Given their low low prices - MANY Vendors will buy their frogs to flip.

Of course they won't mention where they got them from.

s


oddlot said:


> No real,well respected vendor would sell their crap.No one I know would buy from them or sell their junk.


----------



## JJuchems

I agree with Scott. It is about margins. Some do care about the hobby but out crosses and hybrids were bound to happen. We just ended up with someone who wants to "puppymill" their frogs and spout crap because they think they are experts. 

News flash: 

1. "market research" is not needed if they paid attention to the hobby and the hobby of Herpetculture. Interesting enough some people have built reputations respecting the hobby and it's practices.

2. You left a trail of you "knowledge" or lack their of on the forum and inexperience. Some of us have done this for several years and are not calling ourselves experts. It is called being a lifelong learner. I am still learning, so should you. Go to college. 

3. It looks as if you are trying to skirt state laws with trademarks. You are not fooling anyone.


----------



## Azurel

oddlot said:


> No real,well respected vendor would sell their crap.No one I know would buy from them or sell their junk.


Respected by who Lou? The forums? I'm sure you've been on Kingsnake I would say the majority of forum board members don't buy from there so those vendors are not looking for our respect....







Scott said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> Way too many vendors just care about the price. Given their low low prices - MANY Vendors will buy their frogs to flip.
> 
> Of course they won't mention where they got them from.
> 
> s


Thus my post about the only real way DFW is going to be neutered in the hobby is going to be having members flood Kingsnake with excess darts and under cut DFWs prices. 

In reality the truth of the matter is this thread won't be enough to even come close to doing anything to their operation. As it is right now its business and a business ideology of compitition and under cutting prices that will be the only thing that stops them.


----------



## oddlot

Scott said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> Way too many vendors just care about the price. Given their low low prices - MANY Vendors will buy their frogs to flip.
> 
> Of course they won't mention where they got them from.
> 
> s



I personally know a bunch of vendors on the east coast that will never ever have anything to do with them,and most of these guys go to every show around!But they are the good vendors,not saying that some bad eggs won't slip through.





Azurel said:


> Respected by who Lou? The forums? I'm sure you've been on Kingsnake I would say the majority of forum board members don't buy from there so those vendors are not looking for our respect....




Respected as in people who still care about the hobby.I see guys from here selling on kingsnake too(doesn't make them bad).There will always be less scrupulous people at most shows but we the hobby, thanks to threads like this, and word of mouth they will be exposed and if we find out someone is selling dfw crap the word will get out as to who they are.


----------



## Charlie Q

Has everyone already seen the FROGMATCH™ already, or did they just put that up?


----------



## Dendro Dave

Mantella71 said:


> Anthropomorphism, say it with me safe dart frog owners. I cannot stand when idiotic people do this.
> 
> "Just toss one in the bottom of your enclosure and watch the frogs learn to *play on it*, and feed from the abundance of microlife that crawl out when walked on. "
> 
> Can't wait to get home from work and play with my frogs. Maybe I can teach them how to fetch


I don't really have a problem with this as individual pet owners as long as they don't go to far and get weird about it and knitting frog sized sweaters and crap (Coming soon to DFW), but as a comercial entity and a cheap marketing ploy it is distasteful and ultimately I think it is meant to spur impulse buys from uneducated buyers and/or attract dealers with uneducated sales people that will be pushing these frogs on people that aren't ready for them. I think that qualifies as unethical. 



yerbamate said:


> So, is the next step a boycott of businesses that accept and resell DFW junk? Or at least a general statement put out at shows or sent to businesses warning of the hazards that DFW presents? It does take it to the next level, but is that what is needed or are folks just content to vent about it on this thread with no further action needed? Just curious is the problem is as bad as it is made out to be. Thoughts?


I think basically that is the consensus... boycott. People who go to a lot of shows and have good contacts with many vendors will be our front line. I don't think we have to worry to much about people on DB buying and flipping their frogs but we need to make it clear to the vendors out there and people less in touch with the online community or on the fringes a bit, that these people are unacceptable to deal with and we don't want anything that went through their hands. My guess is the "don't deal with these people" chat has already begun around the country and on the show circuit. Just need for those out there (I'm a hermit), to keep it up and hopefully we'll get it to the point where it is just unsustainable for them to do business in this hobby. 



Scott said:


> You're wrong.
> 
> Way too many vendors just care about the price. Given their low low prices - MANY Vendors will buy their frogs to flip.
> 
> Of course they won't mention where they got them from.
> 
> s





JJuchems said:


> I agree with Scott. It is about margins. Some do care about the hobby but out crosses and hybrids were bound to happen. We just ended up with someone who wants to "puppymill" their frogs and spout crap because they think they are experts.
> 
> News flash:
> 
> 1. "market research" is not needed if they paid attention to the hobby and the hobby of Herpetculture. Interesting enough some people have built reputations respecting the hobby and it's practices.
> 
> 2. You left a trail of you "knowledge" or lack their of on the forum and inexperience. Some of us have done this for several years and are not calling ourselves experts. It is called being a lifelong learner. I am still learning, so should you. Go to college.
> 
> 3. It looks as if you are trying to skirt state laws with trademarks. You are not fooling anyone.


I'm afraid you are both right, and a long with the designer dart danger and those frogs infiltrating the hobby people patronizing DFW enough to keep them going is the issue. We can't have that. 



Charlie Q said:


> Has everyone already seen the FROGMATCH™ already, or did they just put that up?


I think that has been up for awhile. Hopefully no one is desperate or foolish enough to get involved with them in that manner (or at all).


----------



## Alexmenke92

I'm pretty new here and don't even own frogs yet (but have some vivs set up), but I have a passion for preserving this hobby, and what these people are doing is beyond ridiculous. First of all, I believe everything has been said about their bogus "research" and their ugly trademarks, but beyond that they can't even construct a decent website without numerous grammatical and spelling errors. I cannot fathom how they believe mixing morphs is a good idea and it is complete BS. Like others I'm sure, I'm looking to buy frogs and I stumbled across their website and red flags popped up like crazy for me. If I can find the website, I know others can too, and not everyone will get those same red flags…
I hope you guys with more power can spread the word to everyone to get these guys out of business, because I as well as all of you would hate to see this hobby turn into the bp hobby. 
I'm glad you all are doing what you can. I'm sure all of us here would thank you.


----------



## LoganR

I want to believe that vendors that specialize in dart frogs will steer clear of DFW's frogs, However I am pretty sure I'll see them on the flippers' tables - i.e. the vendors who have snakes, spiders, lizards and frogs that they just picked up at the airport right before the show and can't tell you anything about the husbandry of any of the species they sell. There are a handful of these vendors at virtually every show.


----------



## edwardsatc

The jewels you can find by following all their links is just amazing. More comedy, anthropomorphism, and ridiculousness:



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> "*ZARABEAN* dart frogs are just plain fun. From a young age they are small and yet act like laser bullets when the jump. They do like heights and climbing. A taller enclosure is best. They eat very well and breed prolifically. *An amazingly watchful frog*"
> 
> "*ZIGZAG* frogs have, well, zigzags (reticulated patterning) all over them. The reticulation is unique and looks like a topographical map of sorts. *These frogs are particular & they like sunlight more than any auratus, but be careful no to overheat/expose.*"
> 
> "*JADE* auratus frogs have spots, but the size, location and how close they are differs greatly. A typical auratus in that it is not the biggest frog nor the boldest, but it is one of the most iridescent. *Very happy & likes room to roam & low population.*"
> 
> "*EVERGREEN* frogs are Auratus & these are some of the most bold and hardy that exist. The bronze coloration is radiant and and the green has a metallic finish. *These frogs are very social and enjoy the company of other auratus.* They breed well & live long."
> 
> "*PERIDOT *frogs are auratus in species and have an amazing array of colors. They range from aqua, blue and blue/green with varying depths of hue in the bronze/brown portions. *They are stately and yet prepared. They like the low to the ground feel*."
> 
> "*LUNAR BLUE* frogs have the classic LUNAR appearance and blueish back legs. *The soap bubble spots are very visible and look like soap suds. These are brave and bold frogs. They are confident and majestic, and comfortable around others. An armed forces frog*!"
> 
> "*APOLLO* tinctorius frogs are medium sized tincs and behave a bit more gentle until full grown when they behave as all tincs. Their beautiful white & black back is most distinctive. *APOLLO frogs bond with the owner more slowly, but perfect eye contact too*."
> 
> "*SAMURAI* dart frogs are strikingly crisp looking. Their coloration and pattern from one to another is very similar but for the legs that have side markings and the "ink blot" on their backs. *Superior in conformation to their little cousin Regina.*"
> 
> "*DENIM* tinctorius look like they have faded blue jeans on. The *appearance is light blue and bleached looking like on old pair of 501s*. These frogs are sized like most tincs, but *seem wary and reserved. Like true ladies & gentlemen, they are proper*!"
> 
> "All *SUNBEE* frogs are black and yellow-orange. The patterns differ and the yellow-orange can be more yellow or orange. Still, the body shape is always the same. They call loudly and *behave as secure as any frog. They do not get disturbed and rest easily*."
> 
> "*NEON* dart frogs are some favorites. The orange stripes seems to glow. They jump well & look very strong. The large pear shape is exhibited best by the females. They breed well & call beautifully loud. *They jump quick & like to look around too! Great legs*!"
> 
> "*LASER* yellow frogs are *invoke images of speed*. They jump in a flash and blur. *They are fast and proud little frogs*. *They often crane their necks to look larger to others nearby. This frog deserves strong consideration, & they love to look around. Arboreal*"
> 
> "*TITAN ORANGE* frogs are impressive and bullish looking of the colored frogs. They are bright glowing hot orange w/pearlish hues as an adult. Juveniles are mottled black and orange and striped. *A fantastic specimen, courageous, and firm in posture, glowing!*"
> 
> "*SUNKIST* dart frogs are burly strong frogs. They have wide mouths of the species, and tough like their terribilis cousins. They can eat larger insects and are *quite curious. They adore attention, but need familiarity first. They like to look at people*"
> 
> "*SANTA* frogs *are like holiday jelly beans*. They are pear shaped frogs, small and* jump like a LASER*. They prefer heights and a tall enclosure is best. The males call loudly and are _quite diligent carrying the eggs to watera spectactular site_. Good eaters!"


----------



## LizardLicker

Laser bullets? 




Really? 

lol


----------



## edwardsatc

edwardsatc said:


> *Business names* in the past two months
> 
> US Dart Frog
> USA Frog
> USA Frog Zoo
> Frog Zoo
> Frog Warehouse
> Art Frog Warehouse
> Dart Frog Warehouse
> Buy Dart Frogs
> Safe Dart Frogs
> 
> *Domains:*
> 
> buydartfrogs.com
> dartfrogwarehouse.com
> safedartfrogs.com
> wascher.com/usafrogfrogzoo.html


A few more domain names that link to their site:

frogdayus.com
usafrogzoo.com
shopdartfrog.com
shopdartfrogs.com
petdartfrog.com
frogzoo.org
dartfrog.co


----------



## Amphibian addict

This is beyond annoying! They're unmistakably marketing to those who have absolutely no idea as to what they're doing, and manipulating that fact to the sale of frogs that'll probably die within days of whatever idiot bought them!


----------



## oddlot

zigzags particularly like sun.......Idiots! Can anyone say future frog jerky! obviously noobs that don't know any better will put them in the sun because of that statement,besides if they love the sun so much shouldn't they be the sunbees or sunkist again misleading Idiots!!!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

So the "Santas", you know the "holiday jelly beans" like to carry the eggs to a "watera spectactular site"

What is a watera spectactular site?

John


----------



## frogface

These people seem to be hallucinating.


----------



## carola1155

This is really actually starting to become *impressively* awful... I had no idea someone could have this misguided of an attempt at a new business. 

I'm going to reiterate my earlier statement and say how I really wish that they would have actually sent this kid to college so he could have taken a basic business admin class or marketing 101...


----------



## Charlie Q

It's about to the point where we need a class action suit.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

They say the "Neons" have "great legs"
Am I to assume those are the females?

John


----------



## JPccusa

It is so absurd that sometimes I wonder if they are pranking all of us.


----------



## Azurel

JPccusa said:


> It is so absurd that sometimes I wonder if they are pranking all of us.


Right....its like we are waiting for "surprise just kidding, had you all going."

Talk about bizarro world....wonder if there is a morph that can be trained to bring me a beer?

I don't think I have ever seen a business quite like this...They would be a case study back in my business class days of what not to do or act.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Azurel said:


> Talk about bizarro world....wonder if there is a morph that can be trained to bring me a beer?.


This is a project I could get behind.


----------



## mfsidore

oddlot said:


> zigzags particularly like sun.......Idiots! Can anyone say future frog jerky! obviously noobs that don't know any better will put them in the sun because of that statement,besides if they love the sun so much shouldn't they be the sunbees or sunkist again misleading Idiots!!!


FUTURE FROG JERKY!!!!! I shouldn't be talking but... This guy seems a little crazy but who am I to judge.( Not oddlot, Lou, I mean the frog warehouse)


----------



## edwardsatc

More fun reading added to their site this afternoon:

A1 Frogs


----------



## Dendroguy

This is beyond insane. These poor people are trying so hard, it's sad. I feel even more for the frogs that could be sold to uneducated herders who attempt to set them up like ball pythons with a heating lamp, newspaper, and a screen top.

D


----------



## edwardsatc

JPccusa said:


> It is so absurd that sometimes I wonder if they are pranking all of us.


I think, to some extent, they purposefully put things on the site in an attempt to antagonize. Perhaps they believe that the old saying applies ... "bad press is good press". Whatever the case, it least there's some entertainment value while also illuminating the ignorance.


----------



## edwardsatc

They don't want hobbyists, they want DFF's 



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> For all frog devotees [def.: persons greatly devoted to something], young or old (and there is no veteran or newbie status with us), there is nothing quite like opening that frog box after delivery. We want you, our devotee frog friends (DFF's) and valued customers, to have the confidence to know your frogs will be elated to see you when you open their packing box from us. As you take the initial steps to giving them a new home and freedom once again, their happiness should not be relief, but the begining of an attachment and bond to you. Sounds corny I know, but breeding and raising thousands of frogs with the best care and attention like we do, we think we have come to know and sense a lot about these amazingly little beauties!


----------



## oddlot

frogface said:


> These people seem to be hallucinating.


 That's because they're licking the "non toxic" frogs they sell. 

It' called their "shady" acres froggy detox program.


----------



## Destroyer551

I almost want to order some things off their website just to see what horrible monstrosities are sent to my door.


----------



## oddlot

edwardsatc said:


> They don't want hobbyists, they want DFF's


 
Haha,dfw's dff's.

I really like how they say you start to bond right away.My Bribri and I have bonded so tightly that my wife is jealous of the attention the frogs have been getting


----------



## Ghost vivs

For some strange reason I envision this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tdFGEjP5rk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Casper


----------



## hydrophyte

This crazy writing with numerous clauses all strung together between commas sounds like the language in one of those jihadist Websites. 



edwardsatc said:


> They don't want hobbyists, they want DFF's
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by safedartfrogs.com website
> 
> For all frog devotees [def.: persons greatly devoted to something], young or old (and there is no veteran or newbie status with us), there is nothing quite like opening that frog box after delivery. We want you, our devotee frog friends (DFF's) and valued customers, to have the confidence to know your frogs will be elated to see you when you open their packing box from us. As you take the initial steps to giving them a new home and freedom once again, their happiness should not be relief, but the begining of an attachment and bond to you. Sounds corny I know, but breeding and raising thousands of frogs with the best care and attention like we do, we think we have come to know and sense a lot about these amazingly little beauties!
Click to expand...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> Leaves- Frogs love leaves! They love to sit on them, hop across them, and hide under them at night. Feel free to add any leaves you find outside to your frog habitat (it is recommended that you rinse them off first).


So all that you need to do is rinse off leaves to be used for your frogs.

No mention of potential risks from fertilizers, pesticides, pathogens, parasites, nuisance critters, etc...

No mention of unsuitable types of leaves.


----------



## edwardsatc

87 pages, 860+ replies, 59,000+ views

You'd think they'd start to get the message


----------



## edwardsatc

> Making a Fly Culture from Our Kit
> 
> -Snip open the dry media bag directly under the tape.
> -Remove the wood fiber fall (called excelsior) from the bag.
> -Insert the bag into a 32oz. or 24oz. cup.
> -blah, blah, blah


It would probably be helpful to actually be selling the product prior to posting directions ...


----------



## Dale D

For someone who is so concerned about trademarking everything, he doesn't seem to have a problem using other peoples trademarks. "Sunkist"


----------



## InvertaHerp

We have to get these people out of the hobby


----------



## edwardsatc

edwardsatc said:


> I think, to some extent, they purposefully put things on the site in an attempt to antagonize. Perhaps they believe that the old saying applies ... "bad press is good press". Whatever the case, it least there's some entertainment value while also illuminating the ignorance.


Case in point ... tonight they've decided to bring this crazy shit back:

Phenotyping

and this:

http://safedartfrogs.com/FROGMATCH.aspx


----------



## phender

I am a little confused. How can they do this "phenotyping" (ie. selective breeding) and let the frogs choose their own mates (A1 pairs) at the same time?

I am thinking maybe they are more confused than I am.


----------



## Judy S

Alexmenke92--welcome to the continuing soap opera which is DB...at least with this one thread...you appear to be coming from a very caring place...and this forum is the place for just that...Welcome...


----------



## edwardsatc

Many of their "trademarks" cannot be found in a query of the United States Patent and Trademark Office database or any other database that I've used. I can't seem to find any existing trademarks (or applications) for "ARRIVE2THRIVE", "FrogMatch", or "FrogSAFE".

A google search for "Wascher trademark" does yield some interesting results though


----------



## Judy S

gee, maybe DB should throw down with them and use the same trademark terms and see what happens...now that might be really interesting...


----------



## FroggyKnight

edwardsatc said:


> More fun reading added to their site this afternoon:
> 
> A1 Frogs


Is it bad that I'm thinking of steak sauce the entire time I read that?

But seriously, how is this man a lawyer and yet still have a plethora of typos on his site!!! I would never hire this guy for any case after seeing safedartfrogs.com (is that the right name?).

Also, if your going to use weird names for your frogs, why not make them consistent. It really is hard to keep track of each and every new name they come up with.


----------



## phender

He tried to trademark "Holy Spirit"?

I have a feeling he wasn't so much of a patent lawyer, more like a serial patenter.


----------



## edwardsatc

FroggyKnight said:


> Also, if your going to use weird names for your frogs, why not make them consistent. It really is hard to keep track of each and every new name they come up with.


Nothing is consistent with these clowns. Prices, shipping, discounts, frog names, site names, domain names, and "expert understanding" change on a regular basis. 

Prices often change on a daily basis. I don't know if anyone else noticed, but their prices actually increased during the Black Friday/Cyber Monday sales and have consistently gone down since. Who would buy anything from a retailer whose prices and shipping costs seem to shift on a daily basis?

Just in the past 12 hours they've changed nearly every section of their website!


----------



## hydrophyte

phender said:


> He tried to trademark "Holy Spirit"?
> 
> I have a feeling he wasn't so much of a patent lawyer, more like a serial patenter.


I saw that too. Seriously that is one of the craziest things I have seen in a long time.


----------



## edwardsatc

hydrophyte said:


> This crazy writing with numerous clauses all strung together between commas sounds like the language in one of those jihadist Websites.


Here's one you'll really love:



safedartfrogs.com website" said:


> "The frogs we seek to raise from the egg and ultimately breed for more offspring will yield different offspring, but when equally strong genetic material of the same species/variety is combined, e.g., the Smith line with the Jones line, the "most dominant" traits should become pronounced and the body mass/conformation index should advance accordingly, but does it?"


----------



## Judy S

maybe they should get into breeding racehorses...


----------



## Mantella71

...maybe they should stick to religion, then again maybe not. 

Limited knowledge+ limited IQ points= Safe dart Frogs


----------



## ndame88

JPccusa said:


> It is so absurd that sometimes I wonder if they are pranking all of us.


I am really started to think this is their intent, realized that DB caused their business dream to fail, now they want some form of pay back.


----------



## oddlot

Judy S said:


> maybe they should get into breeding racehorses...




haha,When I first read this I read they should breed roaches which is probably a better Idea for them!


----------



## Amphinityfrogs

I figured you guys would get a kick out of this. They emailed me a month or so back. They wanted to wholesale me some frogs. I ignored it since I only sell frogs I breed and raise myself. I am not a fan of the wholesale industry. But the email seemed kind of strange to me. It gave me the feeling they were saying if I dont buy from them they will come to the show and out do me or something. This is a quote from the email.

"Rather than have us attend, which we could, we would rather save our money and time and sell to you for resale at the show."


----------



## joshbaker14t

What's wholesale value on a frog they retail for $10?

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## FroggyKnight

Amphinityfrogs said:


> I figured you guys would get a kick out of this. They emailed me a month or so back. They wanted to wholesale me some frogs. I ignored it since I only sell frogs I breed and raise myself. I am not a fan of the wholesale industry. But the email seemed kind of strange to me. It gave me the feeling they were saying if I dont buy from them they will come to the show and out do me or something. This is a quote from the email.
> 
> 
> 
> "Rather than have us attend, which we could, we would rather save our money and time and sell to you for resale at the show."



Wow. That is strange indeed... It does almost seem threatening. I kinda doubt that that was the message they were trying to convey, but I can't be certain. 

I would be extremely hesitant to purchase from someone who sent me something like this.


----------



## Cfrog

Mantella71 said:


> ..._*maybe they should stick to religion,*_ then again maybe not.
> 
> Limited knowledge+ limited IQ points= Safe dart Frogs


Please NO, In every group of people, there are always ones who give the rest a bad rap(tons in this case, lol). As a Christian (with tons of faults) I read over their pages and it was confusing and creepy, I would run from their business and their religious views. Not that I want to turn this into a "religious" issue, but I was taught Jesus didn't hang out with the "religious" nut, but just everyone else, he was kind and personable. As for a "christian" business the best thing you can do is try and always be fair, honest and kind. Business is tough but there are many good PDF ones out there. These people need a reality check and all of their frogs taken away from them. With that how about animal control? How do we know how they really care for the animals, are the cages up to par....?


----------



## Amphinityfrogs

FroggyKnight said:


> Wow. That is strange indeed... It does almost seem threatening. I kinda doubt that that was the message they were trying to convey, but I can't be certain.
> 
> I would be extremely hesitant to purchase from someone who sent me something like this.


Yea as a buisness I doubt they were trying to be threatening. But it did come off that way. Thats one thing about text and email, emotion is hard to convey.


----------



## Mantella71

Sorry rain dart. I certainly did not mean to offend anyone of any faith. I respect all religions as long as you do not push them on someone. Everyone has faults, believe me I have plenty. I just do not approve when someone misconstrues or uses religion to forward their own agenda. I do concur that their website is confusing and creepy as you put it. Anyone who has the opportunity to keep these amazing animals or any animal should realize they have a duty to do what is best for said animal. I believe most people are "good" but don't always believe the implications of their own actions. 

Merry Christmas! (sorry who thinks it is political incorrect to say, tough sh*t).



Please NO, In every group of people, there are always ones who give the rest a bad rap(tons in this case, lol). As a Christian (with tons of faults) I read over their pages and it was confusing and creepy, I would run from their business and their religious views. Not that I want to turn this into a "religious" issue, but I was taught Jesus didn't hang out with the "religious" nut, but just everyone else, he was kind and personable. As for a "christian" business the best thing you can do is try and always be fair, honest and kind. Business is tough but there are many good PDF ones out there. These people need a reality check and all of their frogs taken away from them. With that how about animal control? How do we know how they really care for the animals, are the cages up to par....?


----------



## Cfrog

Mantella71 said:


> Sorry rain dart. I certainly did not mean to offend anyone of any faith. I respect all religions as long as you do not push them on someone. Everyone has faults, believe me I have plenty. I just do not approve when someone misconstrues or uses religion to forward their own agenda. I do concur that their website is confusing and creepy as you put it. Anyone who has the opportunity to keep these amazing animals or any animal should realize they have a duty to do what is best for said animal. I believe most people are "good" but don't always believe the implications of their own actions.
> 
> Merry Christmas! (sorry who thinks it is political incorrect to say, tough sh*t).
> 
> 
> 
> Please NO, In every group of people, there are always ones who give the rest a bad rap(tons in this case, lol). As a Christian (with tons of faults) I read over their pages and it was confusing and creepy, I would run from their business and their religious views. Not that I want to turn this into a "religious" issue, but I was taught Jesus didn't hang out with the "religious" nut, but just everyone else, he was kind and personable. As for a "christian" business the best thing you can do is try and always be fair, honest and kind. Business is tough but there are many good PDF ones out there. These people need a reality check and all of their frogs taken away from them. With that how about animal control? How do we know how they really care for the animals, are the cages up to par....?


Oh no, not at all....I just mean for them please don't continue with the scary "religious" jumble. I am not easily offended , unless you are making fun of the relationship and bond I have with my frogs...then it is ON! lol


----------



## Judy S

RainDart....now THAT might be a little creepy....

Oh no, not at all....I just mean for them please don't continue with the scary "religious" jumble. I am not easily offended , unless you are making fun of the relationship and bond I have with my frogs...then it is ON! lol


----------



## jacobi

Has anyone verified that he's an actual lawyer who passed the bar? This whole thing is weird.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

From what they`ve been doing I don`t think he ever passed a bar in his life.

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

ndame88 said:


> I am really started to think this is their intent, realized that DB caused their business dream to fail, now they want some form of pay back.


No, their business model and incompetence will cause it to fail. At best were probably just helping progress along a little faster.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> From what they`ve been doing I don`t think he ever passed a bar in his life.
> 
> John


Yeah but sadly, you can still practice law, at least in some states, if you haven't passed the bar. reference all the ambulance chaser commercials with disclaimers about them not being certified.


----------



## JayMillz

FROGSafe Phenotyping

"The upside is we can guarantee healthy mixes of bloodlines..."

How the hell can you *guarantee* something like that!? Don't you guys & girls just want to hockey punch somebody on certain days...


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Yeah but sadly, you can still practice law, at least in some states, if you haven't passed the bar. reference all the ambulance chaser commercials with disclaimers about them not being certified.


A search of the State Bar of Wisconsin and the Tennessee Supreme Court Board of Professional Responsibility registered attorney directories yields nothing.

edit: The US Patent and Trademark office does list him as a registered attorney (not agent) in Tennessee


----------



## Dendro Dave

JPccusa said:


> It is so absurd that sometimes I wonder if they are pranking all of us.


I think at this point they've decided to just ignore us and do whatever they want (and undermine the rest of the hobby) and are basically at war with us.



edwardsatc said:


> I think, to some extent, they purposefully put things on the site in an attempt to antagonize. Perhaps they believe that the old saying applies ... "bad press is good press". Whatever the case, it least there's some entertainment value while also illuminating the ignorance.


Agreed... They are mad we poo poo'd their plans and their pseudoscience, and are now purposely working against us. (IMO) 



Ghost vivs said:


> For some strange reason I envision this...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tdFGEjP5rk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> 
> Casper


No! ...these frogs are "Safe"  ...But "screw you guys", yes... that is accurate for sure.



edwardsatc said:


> Here's one you'll really love:





Amphinityfrogs said:


> I figured you guys would get a kick out of this. They emailed me a month or so back. They wanted to wholesale me some frogs. I ignored it since I only sell frogs I breed and raise myself. I am not a fan of the wholesale industry. But the email seemed kind of strange to me. It gave me the feeling they were saying if I dont buy from them they will come to the show and out do me or something. This is a quote from the email.
> 
> "Rather than have us attend, which we could, we would rather save our money and time and sell to you for resale at the show."


I think they know they are going to get pounced on by someone at every show they attend and are looking to avoid those awkward moments, or some kinda scene. Great business plan again... Avoid personal contact with your customers. Business 101? 



JayMillz said:


> FROGSafe Phenotyping
> 
> "The upside is we can guarantee healthy mixes of bloodlines..."
> 
> How the hell can you *guarantee* something like that!? Don't you guys & girls just want to hockey punch somebody on certain days...


I don't think you can. I don't know if there are reproductive problems like in humans with some blood types or antibodies mixing  , but a lot of genetic issues that may cause problems are like a crap shoot. Sometimes the odds work in your favor, sometimes they don't and a problem may skip a generation or be very rare but still there. 

I guess they can guarantee that pair of frogs is compatible and in theory at least can produce more froglets once they've already bred... but basically if they are playing that up to be something special, it is just more marketing BS. Really all you can do is claim to have minimized the odds of incompatibility problems or genetic issues by having had those frogs or bloodlines breeding consitantly without problems. 

*It's probably like their shipping claims... "We shipped a few times successfully" = "We're shipping experts!"*.... So this is, "We bred these frogs a few times".... "We guarantee they are a good mix!" ...*What are their standards for healthy mixes?* Does 1 froglet out of 50 surviving count as a healthy mix? ...Wouldn't surprise me if in their minds it did. 

It is just really distasteful the lengths they will use to try and market these frogs. Making up crap or making little things seem really important or new when they aren't. *It's like when you say you are a custodial engineer instead of a janitor... basically marketing BS.*

Also I really just question if they are even doing this pseudoscience research (at least consistently), because accurately tracking that many traits/variables over that many frogs long term with a small staff while trying to run a large commercial operation seems like a very difficult thing to do. I find their claims dubious at best. I think they are playing up whatever they actually do to make it seem like more. *We've already seen a pattern of misleading marketing from them, a willingness to ignore the hobby communities accepted practices, then attempting to exploit them and the animals after learning from that community.... so why trust anything they say?*


----------



## Charlie Q

Dendro Dave said:


> Also I really just question if they are even doing this pseudoscience research (at least consistently), because accurately tracking that many traits/variables over that many frogs long term with a small staff while trying to run a large commercial operation seems like a very difficult thing to do. I find their claims dubious at best. I think they are playing up whatever they actually do to make it seem like more.


This is undoubtably the case. I doubt if they have a single lab journal chronicling a single thing. 

additionally, considering the thousands of frogs they have, i doubt they have a sufficient family tree record. the spreadsheet required to track all of that would be daunting, to say the least. I did some big spreadsheets for turbine blades, at least they have serial numbers, and they all look the same. can you imagine trying to record the "dominant traits" associated with each generation of froglets? It would be a colossal investment of one's time.


----------



## JayMillz

That's what I don't understand Dave. They can't control the randomness of crossover. No one can. It's all on a bell shaped curve correct? That's what they taught me this semester in my animal breeding class anyways. You're going to have offspring on the lower side of the average too. Even those most genetically superior cattle produce sub-par offspring and sub-par cattle can produce better than average offspring too. I'm almost positive that these chumps at DFW cannot distinguish the difference between frogs with different tolerance to diseases or increased/decreased fertility rates. If they can, why are they wasting their awesome talents to make frogs be a different color? Does anyone know if they ever even test their frogs for anything? I can't imagine a collection that size is easy to avoid cross contamination issues, but I haven't saw how his kiddos take care of the frogs. If they are anything like my boys (who don't mess with the frog stuff) or any other kids on this planet that I've ever met, I doubt they even wash their hands between every single viv let alone after taking a piss.

I hope they get cleaned out in a false advertising law suit or a similar situation before they get any more time to taint the hobby. I'm not going to chance buying any of their frogs just to get them tested to prove their guarantee wrong, but I hope someone who has bought from them can take that healthy guarantee and shove it back in their face. Rick should probably not let his kids run that website because they are going to put some shit up there that's going to backfire in their faces eventually. But after reading the documents for Ricks trademarks and the errors that those contain, like his "fertilised eggs" for example, maybe he is running the site on his own.

Just by the way he's (Rick) gone about starting up this company, there's no doubt in my mind he's cost himself tens of thousands of dollars in future sales. He's managed to piss of just about all of the active forum froggers and you know how word of mouth spreads in this hobby. He's just becoming another blacklist name like a handful of others we all know. It's worth the extra $ to me to support the better companies that are established and actually give a shit about their live products. I had no problem paying extra for my frogs from Mark Pepper because he was sending 1/2 of it to the conservation program in Costa Rica. I doubt they've even considered sending a dime to any programs out there to help with the issues in the wild.

If you were going to open up a business in this hobby, wouldn't you want to start by stocking up on the frogs that are in higher demand instead of the cheap ones that have been established for years? It would just be common sense right? Why would you want to take care of 2000+ frogs that you're selling for as low as $10, pay for media for the flies to raise them and the electric bill, plus all of the space it takes up? If you raised a frog for 6 months (180 days) and sold it for $10, you end up making a whole, what, 5 cents a day per frog before you even consider the upkeep costs? DUMB...but then again, maybe they don't know how to successfully breed the frogs that are worth more $? I would rather sell 100 frogs a year for $100 each instead of 1000 frogs a year for $10 each. That just makes sense from an economic standpoint. Think about how many hours of work those poor kids have to do to make not even a nickel a day on each frog...Jesus Christ


----------



## frogface

They've only been doing this for 2 years. I'm no scientist, but, I think it would take longer than that to study generations for an animal that takes 12 months to mature.


----------



## yerbamate

Do you think it's the kid who is dreaming up all this crazy stuff or the egomaniacal lawyer dad? I think the dad burned through his kid's college fund to make this operation happen and is the guy who is really running the show while he puts his kid out front as bait. The creative linguistic BS sounds like crud dreamed up by a self-important proselytizing middle-ager freely interpreting science principles rather than that which a young bright biology-minded adult could POSSIBLY come up with. It's too slick in a sleazy used car salesman sort of way (not to 'dis legit good used car salesmen!).


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

yerbamate said:


> It's too slick in a sleazy used car salesman sort of way (not to 'dis legit good used car salesmen!).


I see you've seen Rick Wascher's picture.


----------



## FroggyKnight

........FROGMATCH is now available! 


They have a new ad for FROGMATCH on KS. yay.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Wow, remind me never to piss you guys off.

John


----------



## FroggyKnight

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Wow, remind me never to piss you guys off.
> 
> John


Well, these people are deserving of the full dendroboard wrath. I think your safe...............for now

Can't wait till we reach post number 1000!


----------



## Cfrog

Ok a couple things:

#1. FrogZoo to you, taking them to the St. Jude's Hospital for the kids.....
*Really? No stress to the frogs, because they must be happy to bond with the children.
* Not to mention "sick" kids, weak immune systems....frogs can carry salmonella (and who knows how they handle and care for the frogs)

#2. Enlightened Rogue posted wondering if he ever past the bar? Depends on which one....based on poor writing skills and strange and almost incoherent changes to the website (hourly), obviously on the funny, lighter side of things, I would say yes he has past a bar, and has gone in a few as well!

#3. FROGMATCHING! Really, now we can get our frogs hand picked based on colors & patterns. This is so ridiculous. It is a frog, be thankful it is healthily and thriving. They are all beautiful and unique in their own way.

_Some how there has to be a way to get these frogs taken away from these people......._



***this message was approved by my Azureus***


----------



## Alexmenke92

I can't believe that about taking them to the hospital. That's such a dumb idea…especially for children with compromised immune systems. Just pray they don't try to take them out or some idiotic stuff. And I can just see a kid shaking the keeper or something…because you know they aren't lugging a viv around. I agree that all their frogs should be taken away from them. They are being extremely, and I mean extremely, irresponsible in so many ways, towards the hobby, the frogs, and the public. They are robbing the public of the real experience with the stupid made up names and lack of quality information. Not to mention that some of the comments on their site seem to be made up. Just throwing that out there.


----------



## edwardsatc

It appears that they have totally switched to their made up morph names and dropped all reference to actual locality/morph. Hopefully some of the suckers that buy this crap will refer to these made up names or use the SAFE trademark when trying to resell or posting on the forums. At least we can see what DFW are up to openly. Wait until resellers and flippers start trying to pass these frogs off and covering up the origins ...

Some areas of the website have the "Q", in others they have dropped it in favor of "months old". Maybe not so proud of that goofy scheme now, huh?

Their pricing schemes alone should probably discourage most. Daily price changes, daily discount changes, daily shipping charge changes, multiple discounts, and discounts that don't seem to actually apply at checkout ... how does one even know what you are actually paying before hitting the purchase button? What will the price be tomorrow? Will it be cheaper?

They can't even keep up with their own schemes. Depending on where on the site you look, the discount rates are different (see attached captures).

The incompetent manner in which they seem to conduct business is mind blowing. I know middle school kids who could manage this business and website more competently.


----------



## edwardsatc

edwardsatc said:


> Their pricing schemes alone should probably discourage most. Daily price changes, daily discount changes, daily shipping charge changes, multiple discounts, and discounts that don't seem to actually apply at checkout ... how does one even know what you are actually paying before hitting the purchase button? What will the price be tomorrow? Will it be cheaper?


And then there's the Frogmatch pricing scheme on top of all the rest of the pricing craziness:


----------



## Pumilo

edwardsatc said:


> And then there's the Frogmatch pricing scheme on top of all the rest of the pricing craziness:


What's the difference between buying an A1 breeder male and an A1 breeder female, which would cost an extra $50, verses paying $60 extra for a sexed pair? Why would I pay the extra $10? What do I get for that extra $10? I mean, it doesn't say, or even really imply that they are proven or mated. On the other hand, the cheaper, breeder male and breeder female are proven, right? That's what a breeder is. It means they have been, or are being used as breeders, am I right?


----------



## edwardsatc

Doug, they've already changed that pricing scheme since my last post ...

These guys make the stereotypical used car salesman look like a Harvard grad.


----------



## FroggyKnight

edwardsatc said:


> Doug, they've already changed that pricing scheme since my last post ...
> 
> These guys make the stereotypical used car salesman look like a Harvard grad.


Thats crazy. I wonder if they are still watching dendroboard or if all these price changes are their own idea.

I really wish they could PM me. I wouldn't slam them, but I definitely would like to hear their reasoning regarding DFW in an average conversation.


----------



## carola1155

FroggyKnight said:


> Thats crazy. I wonder if they are still watching dendroboard or if all these price changes are their own idea.
> 
> I really wish they could PM me. I wouldn't slam them, but I definitely would like to hear their reasoning regarding DFW in an average conversation.


If they wanted to explain their reasoning they would have already responded to the emails people have sent them. Apparently that "contact us" stuff on the site is pretty much a joke, since they don't respond. You are more than welcome to try your luck with it though... no skin off our backs, just makes them look worse if they keep ignoring it all.


----------



## FroggyKnight

carola1155 said:


> If they wanted to explain their reasoning they would have already responded to the emails people have sent them. Apparently that "contact us" stuff on the site is pretty much a joke, since they don't respond. You are more than welcome to try your luck with it though... no skin off our backs, just makes them look worse if they keep ignoring it all.



Good point. I forgot that they are ignoring emails as well. I can't see their business lasting long if they don't offer communication. That lack of communication alone would certainly drive me away.


----------



## Scott

I know I've asked nicely once - I'm telling you again now.

Do not waste space on jokie graphics here.

It's a serious thread - save the jokes for elsewhere.

Anything further I have to remove from this thread gets an infraction.

s


----------



## Charlie Q

FroggyKnight said:


> Good point. I forgot that they are ignoring emails as well. I can't see their business lasting long if they don't offer communication. That lack of communication alone would certainly drive me away.


wait a minute. if they won't answer emails, but also won't sell unless you create an account, which you have to email them to set up, how can they get any business at all? they have to be answering SOMEBODY'S emails…

edit: oh, they changed it. (go figure…) you can register upon checkout, that way they don't have to answer any questions.


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## FroggyKnight

Charlie Q said:


> wait a minute. if they won't answer emails, but also won't sell unless you create an account, which you have to email them to set up, how can they get any business at all? they have to be answering SOMEBODY'S emails...



EXACTLY! If they keep up their paranoia, they will put themselves out of business.

This is the weirdest business I've ever heard of.....


----------



## oldlady25715

I wonder if the "Frogmatches" occur in a hexagon? Instead of Mixed martial arts (MMA) do these frogs participate in MFA, or Mixed frog art in the hex?

The match for tonight "azureus vs Patricia" whose traits will be strongest?


----------



## Dendro Dave

Scott said:


> I know I've asked nicely once - I'm telling you again now.
> 
> Do not waste space on jokie graphics here.
> 
> It's a serious thread - save the jokes for elsewhere.
> 
> Anything further I have to remove from this thread gets an infraction.
> 
> s


If I was asked, I missed it (or forgot )... but OK (and Sorry)


----------



## Firawen

FroggyKnight said:


> Good point. I forgot that they are ignoring emails as well. I can't see their business lasting long if they don't offer communication. That lack of communication alone would certainly drive me away.


They responded to an email of mine a while ago and asked for my phone number so that we could talk, so I gave it to them, and they never called. I posted about it here after waiting a few days, and soon after that I get an email talking about how busy they have been with FlyDoh and that they still want to call me. I thought that they could potentially be telling the truth. This was a few weeks ago, and still no calls from DFW. I shouldn't have been so naïve as to think that I could talk to them about improving DFW, they don't give a crap about what we have to say, constructive or not.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## hydrophyte

I think they should rename their operation "Dart Frog Dynasty" and produce a reality TV show.


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## JJuchems

hydrophyte said:


> I think they should rename their operation "Dart Frog Dynasty" and produce a reality TV show.


I love it but next thing we know they will be trying to start a real tv show...that will be great for the hobby...wait they don't want to be part of the hobby...


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## edwardsatc

... and yet another domain name: 

shipyourfrogs.com


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## Brian317

Interesting. They gonna try taking on shipyourreptiles?! Ha good luck with that...


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## InvertaHerp

I just saw on their website that their Malibu dart frogs (azuereus) have no relation to wild caught frogs


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## Scott

Someone might want to point this one out SYR - just in case THEIR lawyer(s) want to get involved.

s


edwardsatc said:


> ... and yet another domain name:
> 
> shipyourfrogs.com


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## Dale D

They just announced a price increase as of January 1.

Also:

"Many pairs, trios, and adults will not be for sale after January 1, 2014".


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## thedude

InvertaHerp said:


> I just saw on their website that their Malibu dart frogs (azuereus) have no relation to wild caught frogs


HAH

I may as well get rid of my tv, this craps way more entertaining.


----------



## Azurel

thedude said:


> HAH
> 
> I may as well get rid of my tv, this craps way more entertaining.


TBS thinks they know drama...pfff. DFW knows drama.


----------



## hydrophyte

InvertaHerp said:


> I just saw on their website that their Malibu dart frogs (azuereus) have no relation to wild caught frogs



_And on the eighth day, the Lord created the MalibuTM dart frog._


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## FroggyKnight

hydrophyte said:


> _And on the eighth day, the Lord created the MalibuTM dart frog._


Ok, now THAT is funny!

DFW is taking things way too far....


----------



## markpulawski

Does Malibu Barbie have this info, pretty sure Malibu Ken will be ready to KSA!!


----------



## Alexmenke92

Not trying to change the subject or anything of the sort, and I also believe that their website and values are almost comical in a way. I do want to know however if there have been any warnings sent out to corporations or breeders / shows outside of the dendroboard range. I understand that their business method could undermine them all by itself, but we can't forget the possible dangers of mixing morphs / species, disease transmission through their stupid program (forgot the name atm), and instances of misinformation and abhorrently wrong "research" that is blown out of proportion. They are still a threat to the hobby due to their target market (which may not get them far, but I still believe it is an issue), and many other things previously stated in the thread. I love the comedy it provides, especially due to the fact that a fourth grader could put together a more complete website, but I also kind of want to know if anyone has taken proper initiative to est contact with lawyers / etc. I think that even though they are ridiculous, they could still be a threat and should be treated as such.


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## markpulawski

New Feature
Deep Sea...though slow to bond with their owner will offer foot messages and Martini's once acclimated, and though shaken not stirred is tough for an animal with such short arms it is doable if the owner provides the right eye contact and hand in hand walks in the rain.


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## Judy S

hydrophyte said:


> I think they should rename their operation "Dart Frog Dynasty" and produce a reality TV show.


I hear there may be an opening on A & E.....


----------



## markpulawski

With all of this bonding talk, isn't there some type of truth in advertising rule they are breaking, lying about the disposition of frogs as pets will certainly put a black stain of sin on their souls.


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## Dendroguy

Hey! Hey guys they shipped their VERY first package and it arrived safe!
ONE HOP

D


----------



## toksyn

Seriously, more (asinine) trademarks on that page than you'll find on the Coca-Cola home page.


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## Mantella71

"Malibu dart frogs (azuereus) have no relation to wild caught frogs"

These people must have the I.Q. of a sea cucumber. What species are they related too? If my deductive reasoning skills are still intact, I believe that future generations of any wild caught animal, regardless of species is related to the founding stock. Oh wait, I forgot they don't believe in logic, reason, common sense, hobby parameters, yada, yada, yada.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Dendroguy said:


> Hey! Hey guys they shipped their VERY first package and it arrived safe!
> ONE HOP
> 
> D


Dear *[Redacted]*, 

We appreciate your patronage, as it will help us continue to undermine the entire dart frog hobby and spread our "Screw You" *(TM)* philosophy throughout the entire hobby community. 

Today you have done a great service for *ScrewyouhobbydesignerdartfrogUSAwarehouse.com*(*TM*) and your fellow hobbyists! (Muhahahhahahaaa....Te-hee) *(TM)*. Without your support we'd be one step closer to fading away, closing our doors and never bothering anyone again like 99.9% of the hobby wishes, but thanks to you... Our doors are open another day! 

With the holiday season upon us, I apologize for the brevity and coherent nature of this message. I assure you all future communications will be as convoluted and nonsensical as you have come to expect from* ScrewyouhobbydesignerdartfrogUSAwarehouse.com*(*TM*)

With all apathy and Ill will possible...
Sincerely "Screw you"* (TM)*, and thanks for your support!
*ScrewyouhobbydesignerdartfrogUSAwarehouse.com*(*TM*), Management (Cough, BS, Cough)

P.S. Even we were amazed they made it there!!! ...Oh man we are just constantly amazing ourselves at the lengths we'll go to with no concern for the animals. Are you amazed? We're amazed!!!! Again, sincerely thanks and "Screw you"*(TM)*..."Screw us!"*(TM)* "Screw everyone!" *(TM)*, "Screw Christmas" *(TM)* ...(Hey wait! Can we *(TM)* "Christmas"? No? Damnit! ...bah humbug! *(TM)*?


----------



## ivas

Dendroguy said:


> ONE HOP



I can't understand how they could turn a profit if they are packaging $15 frogs and offering flat rate $45 shipping. I really doubt they are doing everything they can so that frogs Arrive2Thrive(TM). 

The costs of (correctly) shipping into sub-freezing temperatures really add up quickly, which is part of the reason why a lot of small-time breeders (like myself) refuse to ship during such conditions and bigger breeders add surcharges. If I was shipping into such conditions, I would include a minimum of 4 phase panels ($20), inside a styrofoam box ($5), inside a outer box (add $20 in shipping cost for the extra size), with gel packs and heat packs in the outer box ($10). Add this to the base price for overnight shipping from memphis to missouri ($60). That's about $115 in shipping costs! That means they'd be taking a hit of $70 per correctly packed box.

I don't see anywhere on their website where they describe how they go about packaging the frogs. Considering the economics, I assume that they are cutting corners and most winter customers will not be as lucky as the example on their website.



Also, this kid's dad claims he is a genius. With a 5.0 GPA (meaning he only took Advanced Placement classes in high school and made an A in each one), a 34/36 (~95th percentile) on the ACT, and 800/800 on SAT biology and math scores (~99th percentile), he should have been able to get a full-ride scholarship to a top school AND get his corvette. Why the heck would the father of a genius even consider letting his son waste his talents making fruit fly cultures and scrubbing tanks? I'm calling B.S.!!!


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## Alexmenke92

^ we are all calling BS on the genius fact. No "smart" person would ever give up that intellect to waste talents. With those kinds of scores, you could get into a lot of schools with no problem at all. Seriously? He should have made it seem more reasonable. 5.0gpa? Alright..


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## Dendro Dave

ivas said:


> I can't understand how they could turn a profit if they are packaging $15 frogs and offering flat rate $45 shipping. I really doubt they are doing everything they can so that frogs Arrive2Thrive(TM).
> 
> The costs of (correctly) shipping into sub-freezing temperatures really add up quickly, which is part of the reason why a lot of small-time breeders (like myself) refuse to ship during such conditions and bigger breeders add surcharges. If I was shipping into such conditions, I would include a minimum of 4 phase panels ($20), inside a styrofoam box ($5), inside a outer box (add $20 in shipping cost for the extra size), with gel packs and heat packs in the outer box ($10). Add this to the base price for overnight shipping from memphis to missouri ($60). That's about $115 in shipping costs! That means they'd be taking a hit of $70 per correctly packed box.
> 
> I don't see anywhere on their website where they describe how they go about packaging the frogs. Considering the economics, I assume that they are cutting corners and most winter customers will not be as lucky as the example on their website.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, this kid's dad claims he is a genius. With a 5.0 GPA (meaning he only took Advanced Placement classes in high school and made an A in each one), a 34/36 (~95th percentile) on the ACT, and 800/800 on SAT biology and math scores (~99th percentile), he should have been able to get a full-ride scholarship to a top school AND get his corvette. Why the heck would the father of a genius even consider letting his son waste his talents making fruit fly cultures and scrubbing tanks? I'm calling B.S.!!!





Alexmenke92 said:


> ^ we are all calling BS on the genius fact. No "smart" person would ever give up that intellect to waste talents. With those kinds of scores, you could get into a lot of schools with no problem at all. Seriously? He should have made it seem more reasonable. 5.0gpa? Alright..
> 
> 
> Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


Uh ok good points on the shipping stuff, but I'm not sure I'm keen taking the "what genius would raise frogs for a living?" slant. 

I'm in the top 1-2% of IQ scores worldwide, not to brag. My point is... I think if I could make a living at keeping frogs, building vivs, and doing some art the side... essentially doing what I love, *that would be "genius" * So I'm one smart person that would totally take that direction in life 

Despite me being really against DFW or whatever's (TM) business practices and treatment of the hobby community, I am actually impressed his family is that supportive. By all means support your family/follow your dreams, but please don't screw us all over in the process. 

But in fairness to your arguments concerning his "genius"...
I would have gone about all that in a way that didn't totally piss off and alienate the entire hobby associated with my chosen career path. But being smart doesn't always stop you from making a fool of yourself (or guarantee success/happiness in life even if you become a literal rocket scientist). 

So is Dillion a genius? Maybe (It's really immaterial), but he wasn't real smart (or ethical) in how he went about this business venture... nor was his dad (IMO).

As for their low frog and shipping prices, I think at this point they are desperate to drum up supporters/clients. I think they are being forced to take losses in the hopes they can undercut others and dredge up enough support to stay in business. I hope the whole enterprise fails, they leave the hobby and then find happiness in life... FAR FAR AWAY, DOING SOMETHING ELSE.


----------



## Giga

would it be wrong to want hackers to hack their site and any other site(TM) they put up?


Or that God might smite them for screwing up one one of his(and ours-well not our creations but our admiration) creations? I find it ironic that their sites say abunch of God stuff yet they run such a shady business


----------



## The Dendrobatidae Project

I am fairly new in the Dart Frog world, so much so that DB wont even let me respond to classified adds. So I may not have any room to talk on the subject however, I do have an established name and reputation in the BRB world. Animals that are not "common" petstore creatures, something that would not be found in a pet superstore tends to fall in the realm of "hobby" and any business build on a hobby is largely built upon fostering good relationships and establishing a good reputation. With that said I am sure that you have been doing this longer than myself. I would only like to remark on renaming the locality/morphs of the species. There are sooooo very many species and localities of Dendros already that you are only confusing the "market" by renaming them. Once a locality or morph has an established name associated with it it becomes inappropriate to make up your own names for them. I was looking at your site a while ago and had no idea what some of these names where. I actually had to call up some of my friends more established in the hobby to tell me what was going on. If this kind of thing confuses me it is sure to confuse someone new to the market. Then you are going to have ppl that start breeding and market LUNAR blues and going to create problems in the future.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Giga said:


> would it be wrong to want hackers to hack their site and any other site(TM) they put up?


Hmm... That may qualify as something that is ethically wrong, but morally right


----------



## edwardsatc

Another thing that ticks me off is their marketing of "pet" frogs vs. "A1" frogs. Either you sell quality frogs or you don't ...

If their "A1 breeders" are any different than their "pet frogs" (which I highly doubt), then this is a good example of line breeding which, of course, they say they don't do. They say that they do not force pairings, yet they offer A1 pairs which excludes what they deem inferior "pet frogs".

I suspect that Rick is truly in charge of this venture and he is just using the kids as a front. If not, then Dillon could quite possibly be the most ignorant genius I have ever heard of.

Rick, I know you're following this thread so take a F#%*ing clue ... 950 posts and 67,000+ views on this forum alone and yet not a single supporter willing to step forward.


----------



## rigel10

Apollo tinc, lunar grey, lunar blue, denim... What crap is this? I do not follow this thread because it concerns you overseas, but I think that these people are a serious threat to the hobby! At first I thought that their commercial initiative was amateurish and foiled, but their perseverance is now diabolic! Do something to stop them!


----------



## Alexmenke92

Dendro Dave said:


> Uh ok good points on the shipping stuff, but I'm not sure I'm keen taking the "what genius would raise frogs for a living?" slant.
> 
> I'm in the top 1-2% of IQ scores worldwide, not to brag. My point is... I think if I could make a living at keeping frogs, building vivs, and doing some art the side... essentially doing what I love, *that would be "genius" * So I'm one smart person that would totally take that direction in life
> 
> Despite me being really against DFW or whatever's (TM) business practices and treatment of the hobby community, I am actually impressed his family is that supportive. By all means support your family/follow your dreams, but please don't screw us all over in the process.
> 
> But in fairness to your arguments concerning his "genius"...
> I would have gone about all that in a way that didn't totally piss off and alienate the entire hobby associated with my chosen career path. But being smart doesn't always stop you from making a fool of yourself (or guarantee success/happiness in life even if you become a literal rocket scientist).
> 
> So is Dillion a genius? Maybe (It's really immaterial), but he wasn't real smart (or ethical) in how he went about this business venture... nor was his dad (IMO).
> 
> As for their low frog and shipping prices, I think at this point they are desperate to drum up supporters/clients. I think they are being forced to take losses in the hopes they can undercut others and dredge up enough support to stay in business. I hope the whole enterprise fails, they leave the hobby and then find happiness in life... FAR FAR AWAY, DOING SOMETHING ELSE.


First off allow me to apologize to you. Hats off to you and your brain! 
However, here is the difference.

Even though I'm relatively new here, I know that you make very intelligent comments when you need to or someone needs help or advice. I've seen it. You also look out for the hobby. I've seen that too. Here's what I mean when I'm saying I doubt his intellect. Because if it isn't his intellect, he must not care that much. Here is why.
If Dillon cared so much about the frogs or had ANY, and I mean ANY scientific background of ANYTHING, he would know to do research. And when I say research, I mean actually look up, read, and analyze reliable, preferably primary scientific journals on dart frogs (in this example). Instead, he lets his dad (who I'm guessing does the website because if he's that smart he wouldn't misspell simple things and know how to proofread) make the website and does not question it? They have no care sheets at all. Seriously…this is why I'm questioning. If he knew anything, he would understand (even genetically, pathologically, etc) what his "family" company is doing wrongly. 
That is one thing that separates you and him. 
I apologize again if that was offensive to you, I and everyone else respects your intelligence. 

Alex


----------



## JJuchems

To the irresponsible One Hop Shipping: 

Frustration, support for workers on social media over delivery delays  - TODAY.com


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

I'd like to relate some personal experiences and my own personal opinion regarding this matter. 
I first met Dillon and his father in May of 2012. Dillon answered my Frog Day ad and purchased several frogs from me. At the Frog Day show in 2012 he purchased a number of juvi D. auratus El Cope, a breeding pair of D. tinctorius Cobalt and a pair of D. tinctorius Inferalanis, possibly some D. tinctorus Powder Blues as well, but to be honest I can't be 100% on that.  As I understood it at the time these were among the first frogs that Dillon and his family had purchased. 

In November 2012 I received a message from Dillon stating he and his family would be down in my part of Illinois visiting family on Thanksgiving and they were interested in seeing my frog room and purchasing some more frogs from me. I welcomed them into my home and we had a great time that Thanksgiving morning. I showed the Wascher family everything. All my vivs, how I raise tads, how I culture ff's, everything. Before leaving for their family dinner they purchased some P. vittatus from me.
I considered the Wascher's friends and good froggers. 
While I still think at the core they are nice people, that does not a good frogger make. 

I received a message from Dillon a few weeks ago announcing the launch of his new business venture. I, like most of you, was shocked and appalled by what I read on the website. I can tell you I DID NOT sell the Wascher family Sunkist, or Peridot, or 501 frogs. I can't stand that these people have taken upon themselves to rename morphs and locales of frogs for marketing purposes. I find it humorous that they feel they had to trademark the SafeFrog identifier, yet they are clearly violating established trademarks such as Sunkist and 501's. I wonder if these companies would have their lawyers write a cease and desist letter to the Waschers. 
Add to this the breeding exchange program, the delusional scientific credibility and the overall lack of experience in the hobby and you have a recipe for disaster. Which is all the venture is, a disaster. 
I know many other hobbyists in IL and WI who have sold frogs to the Waschers. None have them have sold them any of these crazy, made up, marketing, BS names. This is one of the most irresponsible things I've ever seen in this hobby. Who gives you the right to do this. Some fancy law degree?
Yet you sit here and try and "embrace" the hobby after your pet store deal didn't go through while alienating the hobby by changing well known, long term morph and locale names. How dare you. 
I've lost all respect for you. I'm ashamed you're peddling the offspring of frogs I sold you as anything but what they really are. 
Abandon this fiasco and this hobby.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

So YOU`RE the one who started this mess!!!

Kidding of coarse Jon, and very well said by the way.

John


----------



## Pumilo

Perhaps Sunkist and Levi's should be contacted and asked if they gave permission for the use of their brand names. I would think they would object to their use, to make a profit.


----------



## Mantella71

"Our FrogMatch program should help everyone find what they want, Pet or Breeder stock. Some people will specialize in auratus, some will be a single tinctorius variety, and others will breed according to market demand and make a home based business out of it, and *others will even mix the auratus as **many people do now.* *In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair."*

1st off what "experts"? 2nd, name a single example of cross-breeding by a 
respected legitimate hobbyist. Finally, they are called locales or specific populations/sub-species. Dart frogs evolved thousands of years to produce these unique populations. They should never be compared to dogs or any other common pet that people have domesticated. What is it going to take for them to wake up? Sometimes ignorance is not bliss. Respect and love to all the real frog lovers.


----------



## Scott

Truly any frogger with any ounce of intelligence knows that this is NOT the time of year to support fragile amphibians.

They keep calling themselves experts and showing that they haven't a clue.

s


JJuchems said:


> To the irresponsible One Hop Shipping:
> 
> Frustration, support for workers on social media over delivery delays* - TODAY.com


----------



## Boondoggle

Mantella71 said:


> "...*others will even mix the auratus as **many people do now.* *In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair."*


I've been on a bit of a Dendroboard hiatus for a while and I'm not current enough to really weigh in on DFW...but this statement has to have been made by someone without an even rudimentary understanding of genetics. Was this really on their site?

It just seems a shame because clearly a lot of money and effort has been poured into this venture and it really could have furthered the hobby, while being profitable. It seems like the focus is to dupe people with an introductory knowledge of herps into making purchases. 

Undercut the current market, be less than truthful about your frogs, make up a bunch of outlandish crap, give bad advice...that's a business model?


----------



## toksyn

Unfortunately, it is a business model. An ironic one considering their *ahem* beliefs. 

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk


----------



## BrainBug

Just read the first couple pages of this thread and had to check out the site. 

"FlyDoh media can be frozen, thawed, and refreezed repeatedly."

That's actually an interesting concept. "Refreezed" made me giggle a little but has anyone tried this culture media?

"We call it the T-Bag™ The media inside the T-Bag pouch is outrageous for microlife propagation, but it does break down in about 60 days."

For real? the T-bag? I'll take one for my girlfriend and one for your mother please.

Please call your frog morphs what they really are, not made up names that sound pretty to you. Go discover your own morphs and name those. Don't rename something someone else discovered and already named.


----------



## hydrophyte

BrainBug said:


> Just read the first couple pages of this thread and had to check out the site.
> 
> "FlyDoh media can be frozen, thawed, and refreezed repeatedly."
> 
> That's actually an interesting concept. "Refreezed" made me giggle a little but has anyone tried this culture media?
> 
> "We call it the T-Bag™ The media inside the T-Bag pouch is outrageous for microlife propagation, but it does break down in about 60 days."
> 
> For real? the T-bag? I'll take one for my girlfriend and one for your mother please.
> 
> Please call your frog morphs what they really are, not made up names that sound pretty to you. Go discover your own morphs and name those. Don't rename something someone else discovered and already named.


Does the T-Bag™come with a tricorne and a Gadsen flag, or are those extra?


----------



## Dendro Dave

Alexmenke92 said:


> First off allow me to apologize to you. Hats off to you and your brain!
> However, here is the difference.
> 
> Even though I'm relatively new here, I know that you make very intelligent comments when you need to or someone needs help or advice. I've seen it. You also look out for the hobby. I've seen that too. Here's what I mean when I'm saying I doubt his intellect. Because if it isn't his intellect, he must not care that much. Here is why.
> If Dillon cared so much about the frogs or had ANY, and I mean ANY scientific background of ANYTHING, he would know to do research. And when I say research, I mean actually look up, read, and analyze reliable, preferably primary scientific journals on dart frogs (in this example). Instead, he lets his dad (who I'm guessing does the website because if he's that smart he wouldn't misspell simple things and know how to proofread) make the website and does not question it? They have no care sheets at all. Seriously…this is why I'm questioning. If he knew anything, he would understand (even genetically, pathologically, etc) what his "family" company is doing wrongly.
> That is one thing that separates you and him.
> I apologize again if that was offensive to you, I and everyone else respects your intelligence.
> 
> Alex


Thanks, and it's all good man. I didn't take any offense  I just wanted to make the point that if you manage to make it in life doing what you love, then good for you, even if you're wicked smart but your career isn't rocket science. As for the rest I tend to agree. Their whole venture is "questionable" at best


----------



## Dendro Dave

Mantella71 said:


> "Our FrogMatch program should help everyone find what they want, Pet or Breeder stock. Some people will specialize in auratus, some will be a single tinctorius variety, and others will breed according to market demand and make a home based business out of it, and *others will even mix the auratus as **many people do now.* *In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair."*
> 
> 1st off what "experts"? 2nd, name a single example of cross-breeding by a
> respected legitimate hobbyist. Finally, they are called locales or specific populations/sub-species. Dart frogs evolved thousands of years to produce these unique populations. They should never be compared to dogs or any other common pet that people have domesticated. What is it going to take for them to wake up? Sometimes ignorance is not bliss. Respect and love to all the real frog lovers.


Ya his understanding is flawed and you raise valid questions... 
Lot's of species are polymorphic without being crossbred to other species. Polymorphism is be due to a variety of factors. Wiki (grain of salt, but I think it is right) says this...
"*Polymorphism is common in nature; it is related to biodiversity, genetic variation and adaptation; it usually functions to retain variety of form in a population living in a varied environment"*
...
*"According to the evolution theory, polymorphism results from evolutionary processes, as does any aspect of a species. It is heritable and is modified by natural selection. "*
And related to that is Polyphenism..

*"A polyphenic trait is a trait for which multiple, discrete phenotypes can arise from a single genotype as a result of differing environmental conditions"*

*"Polyphenism is a kind of polymorphism where different forms of an animal are caused a single genotype. The animal inherits the capability, but the environment determines which form develops. This contrasts with genetic polymorphism,[2] where each morph (form) inherits a slightly different genome.
Polyphenism occurs when the animal inherits a developmental switch. The switch is sensitive to some environmental cue or trigger. For example, the sex of crocodiles is determined by the prevailing temperature. Their gender is a polyphenic trait, and is not determined by the usual sex linkage.[3]"*

Diet, environment and other selection pressures can affect gene expression causing one animal to come out brown, and another to come out grey or with spots. And Dillion has almost completely ignored all that and the fact that barriers such as rivers/mountains and vast distances seperate many of these populations so that is is virtually impossible that they'd meet in nature. 

1 rogue idiot crossbreeding frogs doesn't constitute an expert or mean that entire morphs and/or species are all of a sudden invalid and its hybrid genes prevalent in the captive population. Nor does it render our desire to have a captive animal that is representative (a "snapshot" if you will) of a certain wild population irrelevant just because it is inconvenient for his business plans.

So basically we are left with this guy doesn't know what he is talking about and/or he is blowing things out of proportion, using misinformation to further his own agenda and undermine the entire hobby. 

Who are these many people mixing auratus morphs? I'm sure it happens, especially with some noobs but that doesn't mean it is worth throwing the baby out with the bath water. We may not have a perfect representation of the wild counterpart, but the point is we want captive frogs that are as close to their wild counterparts as possible. So even if a little tinc blood got into an auratus CB population we may not be happy about it, but we can only do so much. It isn't a perfect situation but we as a hobby haven't decided to just throw our hands in the air and give up on the idea, and it isn't Dillion's place to make that decision for us, especially on a commercial scale.

*Dillion has appointed himself an "expert", and seems to have no problem making decisions for the entire hobby on his own, and this is what makes him dangerous*. 

He doesn't care that his goals are contrary to ours, and would undermine ours such as causing more confusion with names, or muddying up the genetics of our frogs making it harder to get a "wild like" frog.

It just blows my mind that this level of arrogance and selfishness is acceptable to him and his family. I think their silence is based in part on the fact they don't have a good reply to this sentiment. They have no justification other then their own selfish desire, warped reality and financial agenda, so silence it is.


----------



## BrainBug

hydrophyte said:


> Does the T-Bag™come with a tricorne and a Gadsen flag, or are those extra?


No but I think they have a more expensive version that comes with FrumUnda™ cheese to increase the amount of Microlife™ you get with each T-Bag™


----------



## Dendro Dave

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'd like to relate some personal experiences and my own personal opinion regarding this matter.
> I first met Dillon and his father in May of 2012. Dillon answered my Frog Day ad and purchased several frogs from me. At the Frog Day show in 2012 he purchased a number of juvi D. auratus El Cope, a breeding pair of D. tinctorius Cobalt and a pair of D. tinctorius Inferalanis, possibly some D. tinctorus Powder Blues as well, but to be honest I can't be 100% on that. As I understood it at the time these were among the first frogs that Dillon and his family had purchased.
> 
> In November 2012 I received a message from Dillon stating he and his family would be down in my part of Illinois visiting family on Thanksgiving and they were interested in seeing my frog room and purchasing some more frogs from me. I welcomed them into my home and we had a great time that Thanksgiving morning. I showed the Wascher family everything. All my vivs, how I raise tads, how I culture ff's, everything. Before leaving for their family dinner they purchased some P. vittatus from me.
> I considered the Wascher's friends and good froggers.
> While I still think at the core they are nice people, that does not a good frogger make.
> 
> I received a message from Dillon a few weeks ago announcing the launch of his new business venture. I, like most of you, was shocked and appalled by what I read on the website. I can tell you I DID NOT sell the Wascher family Sunkist, or Peridot, or 501 frogs. I can't stand that these people have taken upon themselves to rename morphs and locales of frogs for marketing purposes. I find it humorous that they feel they had to trademark the SafeFrog identifier, yet they are clearly violating established trademarks such as Sunkist and 501's. I wonder if these companies would have their lawyers write a cease and desist letter to the Waschers.
> Add to this the breeding exchange program, the delusional scientific credibility and the overall lack of experience in the hobby and you have a recipe for disaster. Which is all the venture is, a disaster.
> I know many other hobbyists in IL and WI who have sold frogs to the Waschers. None have them have sold them any of these crazy, made up, marketing, BS names. This is one of the most irresponsible things I've ever seen in this hobby. Who gives you the right to do this. Some fancy law degree?
> Yet you sit here and try and "embrace" the hobby after your pet store deal didn't go through while alienating the hobby by changing well known, long term morph and locale names. How dare you.
> I've lost all respect for you. I'm ashamed you're peddling the offspring of frogs I sold you as anything but what they really are.
> Abandon this fiasco and this hobby.


Rusty I think it is awesome that you did that for them. I hope you continue to be that open and helpful to others and not let this one case of someone essentially betraying the entire hobby and community ruin your goodwill. *This is all on them... 110%.* Of all the hardass froggers, I have a real hard time imagining you to have said or done anything that would even hint to them that they were on the right track here LOL . 

I think you're right that at heart they probably are good people, but their sense of reality along with their ethics and morals are a bit warped as they relate to our hobby. I mean it is just amazing that they could so thoroughly fail to understand the culture within the hobby they were starting a business in, and then repeatedly thumb their noses at us. They were some how oblivious or they didn't care ...I don't know how it happened. I just know it did and *I think they owe us all, especially you a public apology for the betrayal.*


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I don`t know, I have this gut feeling that they`re running around in circles
trying to some how fix this disaster, in they`re own mindless way of coarse.
I think they jumped into something head first they knew nothing about (really?) and a crash and burn is in they`re future.
I remember way back Donn and Scott said how important it was to keep this thread active.
Thank you because I`ve learned so much in this mess.
As I said in another thread...don`t f**k with Dendroboard.

John- a 10 year newbie still learning.


----------



## Giga

here's the thing that crossed my mind last night. What if they get wild frogs and then sell them off to someone who take there safe bullcrap as fact and it sends them to the hospital, or worse?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Mantella71 said:


> "Our FrogMatch program should help everyone find what they want, Pet or Breeder stock. Some people will specialize in auratus, some will be a single tinctorius variety, and others will breed according to market demand and make a home based business out of it, and *others will even mix the auratus as **many people do now.* *In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair."*
> 
> 1st off what "experts"? 2nd, name a single example of cross-breeding by a
> respected legitimate hobbyist. Finally, they are called locales or specific populations/sub-species. Dart frogs evolved thousands of years to produce these unique populations. They should never be compared to dogs or any other common pet that people have domesticated. What is it going to take for them to wake up? Sometimes ignorance is not bliss. Respect and love to all the real frog lovers.


The only reason they`re telling people it`s ok to mix these frogs is to sell more of them. I can`t think of a worse mix than a some what shy Auratus with a Cobalt or some other Tinc.
Telling people now that`s it`s ok to mix really crossed the line for me. I hope and pray someone new to the hobby will do some research and come here first. Please.

John


----------



## Dendro Dave

Giga said:


> here's the thing that crossed my mind last night. What if they get wild frogs and then sell them off to someone who take there safe bullcrap as fact and it sends them to the hospital, or worse?


Well short of someone eating one or some kinda allergy, serious injury due to toxins is probably unlikely. But if they were marketed as "SAFE" and something happened I assume they'd be liable, but I could be mistaken. 

Supposedly Terribilis, bicolors or some of the other very toxic frogs can hold on to their toxicity for years in captivity and may even pass it on to their offspring to some degree. So that is a potential issue, but again unless there is some really improper handling/allergy there isn't likely to be an issue due to residual toxicity. 

They really are pretty safe, but not as "SAFE" as DFW makes them out to be, and another part of our argument against that trademark is that it seems intentionally misleading. SAFE could mean you can't get salmonella from them or something, or it could mean the toxicity, it could mean the frogs are all disease free and won't infect other frogs etc..etc... And most of that would be pretty hard if not impossible to truly guarantee. You have to be sure to read the fine print to get DFW's idea of what "SAFE" means. Oh and personally I wouldn't wanna put my butt on the line with that trademark just to have "SAFE" as some cheap marketing ploy to sell frogs to naive people.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Enlightened Rogue said:


> The only reason they`re telling people it`s ok to mix these frogs is to sell more of them. I can`t think of a worse mix than a some what shy Auratus with a Cobalt or some other Tinc.
> Telling people now that`s it`s ok to mix really crossed the line for me. I hope and pray someone new to the hobby will do some research and come here first. Please.
> 
> John


Ya and the sad part is if people do buy into their BS and buy frogs then mix them, they will probably find their way to DB and we'll get this influx of people who have been misled into thinking this is something acceptable. 

Oh and we'll have those dang franken frogs to deal with. So we'll get to be the ones who break it to all those poor buyers that their frogs are basically worthless for breeding/selling and their husbandry (mixing) is frowned upon. 
*
Setting people up to fail* or at least be at odds with the majority of the hobby from the start. Awesome business practices... super ethical/moral DFW!!!! (I'm trying to stay away from the religious angle, but seriously given your beliefs *
how do you justify that to yourself?*)


----------



## rigel10

But based on what their frogs (all their frogs) are "SAFE" compared to the frogs of other sellers? Miracle? Genetic engineering? Magic?
And who gave them the brand "SAFE (TM)"? The President of U.S.A.?


----------



## Charlie Q

it would be quite ironic if the Wascher family contracted salmonella from their SAFE™ frogs…

Not that i wish that upon them, or ANYBODY


----------



## Judy S

rigel10 said:


> But based on what their frogs (all their frogs) are "SAFE" compared to the frogs of other sellers? Miracle? Genetic engineering? Magic?
> And who gave them the brand "SAFE (TM)"? The President of U.S.A.?


The frog fairy....


----------



## JayMillz

Let this be a lesson to the younger board members. This is what happens when your family's microwave has a hole in it when you're growing up.


----------



## edwardsatc

What a scam ...

I think Rick must have been a used car salesman in a past life.



safedartfrogs.com said:


> Help #2
> "Go-to-Market" Program
> This a great program for new breeders, and iour customers breeding the frogs we sell. If you buy our frogs and successfully breed them, we have a built in very low cost marketplace for you to sell your froglet offspring online alongside ours. We provide this service to promote the expansion of dart frog ownership and responsible commerce, and offer an alternate marketplace for all. In fact, our wholesale contacts may want some frogs from you and you may become their partner breeder they need locally! When pet dart frogs continue to become the next upscale pet, nobody will have neopugh frogs anll breeders will benefit. So, we can help you post your frogs for sale and enable the drop ship function. If a customer buys nearest you, you handle the transaction and delivery details, and we simply clear and disperse the funds into your account. This program is very streamlined. What does it cost? The same low transaction fees we pay for the ecommerce site and bank gateways, etc., to cover the transaction, nothing more and nothing less, *but we will require you to use our guaranteed low cost ShipYourFrogs service coming in 2014.* If we are not the cheapest third party shipper, for example the custoemr is across town and you prefer your local Postal Service or courier, you may use whomever you desire and still sell on our site(s). We only ask that you share what you paid so we may continually negotiate the best rates for all our customers.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I only counted 4 grammar and spelling errors.
What a putz.

John


----------



## FroggyKnight

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I only counted 4 grammar and spelling errors.
> What a putz.
> 
> John


Only four? Thats a new record!!! Hurrah


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> What a scam ...
> 
> I think Rick must have been a used car salesman in a past life.


This is why it is so important that you guys that aren't hermits like me  and actually leave your houses, and have real human contact have got to keep spreading the word in the real world. 

If they ever managed to succeed in this in a significant way, it will be a real blow to the hobby. 

*Is there a thread on frogforum warning people about them?* I did a quick check but didn't find one. I'm not very active over there.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Dendro Dave said:


> This is why it is so important that you guys that aren't hermits like me  and actually leave your houses, and have real human contact have got to keep spreading the word in the real world.
> 
> If they ever managed to succeed in this in a significant way, it will be a real blow to the hobby.
> 
> *Is there a thread on frogforum warning people about them?* I did a quick check but didn't find one. I'm not very active over there.


I would not consider myself qualified to start a thread over there, just because I doubt my ability to convey the seriousness of the situation. BUT SOMEONE needs to begin a discussion over there. I will contribute as much as I can to that thread. People beyond DB need to hear of this threat..


----------



## Brian317

I'm shocked "Go-to-Market" isn't trademarked yet...

and I figured they would use the shipyourfrogs for exactly this.

I'm with ya Donn....what a scam.


----------



## Dendro Dave

FroggyKnight said:


> I would not consider myself qualified to start a thread over there, just because I doubt my ability to convey the seriousness of the situation. BUT SOMEONE needs to begin a discussion over there. I will contribute as much as I can to that thread. People beyond DB need to hear of this threat..


Ya I feel like it should probably come from someone who has a history there, and that isn't me.

It might be worth contacting the admins and giving them a heads up about DFW and asking if we could explain our position on why we don't want these people in the hobby or others to deal with them.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

The newly resurrected frognet would be a good place to spread the word, also.


----------



## Charlie Q

nobody will have neopugh frogs????

dang.


----------



## edwardsatc

wascher.com website said:


> We will build USAFrog and FrogZooMall.com on *integrity*, and grow on quality!


If there's one thing they've proven time and time again, it's that they have no integrity whatsoever.



wascher.com website said:


> We are always excited about dart frogs! Whenever we see this truly unique animal *we are glad to be a part of a hobby filled with so many knowledgeable and caring froggers*. Thank you!! In the same spirit of collaboration, we offer several pilot programs to stay in touch with the hobby and share our resources, frogs, and facility.





wascher.com website said:


> We are very excited about these programs even if they are pilot programs. *In most cases the interactions between us and the rest of the hobby is a one of collaboration, not one-sided services.*


Funny, coming from a business and family that has actively sought to distance themselves from the hobby and sends us a one fingered salute at every opportunity.



wascher.com website said:


> Breeder Program- This program is designed for "best in breed pairings" and collaborations with the hobby! *Through a willing collaboration of two experienced breeders, this program is designed to merge captive bloodlines from across the country*, and expand the gene pool for frog offspring of like species and variety.


Newsflash! Hobbyists have been doing this on their own for decades without the help of someone seeking to capitalize and profit from it.



wascher.com website said:


> Peer Quality - We want to provide this DartFrogMall service *to our colleagues and friends in the hobby*, known and unknown, to help stabilize quality of dart frogs in the market by bringing quality goods of the independent breeder of dart frogs together in one place.


Hah, I pretty sure that they have no colleagues or friends in the hobby. If they do, no one has come here to defend them ... 

I am impressed that they actually managed to spell "colleagues" correctly .


----------



## Mantella71

They must of used spellcheck.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Mantella71 said:


> They must of used spellcheck.


ahhh, man's greatest achievement has been discovered once more!


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> If there's one thing they've proven time and time again, it's that they have no integrity whatsoever.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, coming from a business and family that has actively sought to distance themselves from the hobby and sends us a one fingered salute at every opportunity.
> 
> 
> 
> Newsflash! Hobbyists have been doing this on their own for decades without the help of someone seeking to capitalize and profit from it.
> 
> 
> 
> Hah, I pretty sure that they have no colleagues or friends in the hobby. If they do, no one has come here to defend them ...
> 
> I am impressed that they actually managed to spell "colleagues" correctly .


Ya it seems they operate under the premise that if they type something on a website it magically/devinely becomes true, regardless of how many examples we can site of it not being true (or of hypocrisy).


----------



## toksyn

Pet peeve - since we're talking about grammar and spelling: they must *have* used spellcheck. 



Mantella71 said:


> They must of used spellcheck.


----------



## Mantella71

Just to be a smart ass it's spell check, not grammar check  Either way they need to "checked"


----------



## gturmindright

I just looked up Rick Wascher and he owns about 213 domain names.


----------



## gturmindright

I need someone to add some tags for me. It only let me add two. usafrog.com artfrogs.com dartfrog.info artfrogs.org a1dartfrog.org wascher.com frogzoo.com safe-dart-frog.com dartfrogtadpole.com 

Dont you have to pay for each domain name? What the heck. Would you buy multiple domain names to get more customers or so you can make it difficult for people to find your negative feedback?


----------



## reptiles12

man i'm so stupid. I was looking at this website called U.S. safe dart frogs saying man this is some bullshit and i need to put it up on dendroboard, but i failed to realize that dart frog warehouse and U.S. safe dart frogs were the same thing.... I think ive had enough internet for today haha


----------



## Dendro Dave

reptiles12 said:


> man i'm so stupid. I was looking at this website called U.S. safe dart frogs saying man this is some bullshit and i need to put it up on dendroboard, but i failed to realize that dart frog warehouse and U.S. safe dart frogs were the same thing.... I think ive had enough internet for today haha


Don't feel bad, their whole business plan seems geared around confusion and misrepresentation. 

With so many names it's hard to keep track and I think they are very aware of that and actively trying to take advantage of it to distance themselves from all the negative publicity from this thread under the title "Dart Frog Warehouse"


----------



## Erikb3113

DEEPSEA dart frogs have a deep blue and black or blue and bronze coloration. Patterns vary and the size is about 2-2.25 inches full grown. As an auratus, it is a gentle frog, and looks for a trusting/bonding friendship with his/her owner. 



That made me laugh my beer out of my nose. I've been so lonely, an auratus sounds perfect for me! Seriously though..... I have been away for a while and was shocked to see this was still an on going thread, but am appalled to see how far these people have gone with their "family business". Teach your children well eh?


----------



## orin

Erikb3113 said:


> DEEPSEA dart frogs have a deep blue and black or blue and bronze coloration. Patterns vary and the size is about 2-2.25 inches full grown. As an auratus, it is a gentle frog, and looks for a trusting/bonding friendship with his/her owner.
> 
> 
> 
> That made me laugh my beer out of my nose. I've been so lonely, an auratus sounds perfect for me! Seriously though..... I have been away for a while and was shocked to see this was still an on going thread, but am appalled to see how far these people have gone with their "family business". Teach your children well eh?


 Is the gentle, trusting, bonding friendship frog trademarked and copyrighted or patent pending? Is it legal to repeat?


----------



## FroggyKnight

gturmindright said:


> I just looked up Rick Wascher and he owns about 213 domain names.


That is mind blowing, and not in a good way.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Who would actually ship an adult breeder frog across the country, to someone they don't know, with a questionable reputation, to be housed in unknown conditions, cared for with unknown husbandry techniques, using unknown quarantine procedures, then having that frog housed with unknown tank mates, carrying unknown pathogens and parasites, being fed ff's with unknown supplements, then to have that frog breed with said unknown tank mate and to split the resulting offspring with the self proclaimed experts and scientists? Really??
What an abomination. 
Can their frogs really be bred with ours considering no one but the Waschers have Peridots and Sunkist and DeepSea bullshit frogs? 

Keep up the good fight people. Tag this thread with their name as many times as possible. Hopefully if someone does a Google search this thread will come up first and not their website.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I wonder if Dillon knows he has one
of the most popular threads here ever.
Lets hope so.

John


----------



## rigel10

Guys, do you imagine next year Dillon nominated "Amphibian Breed of the Year"? Lol!


----------



## JayMillz

rigel10 said:


> Guys, do you imagine next year Dillon nominated "Amphibian Breed of the Year"? Lol!


Well he sure has bred a wide array of challenging & difficult frogs


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

JayMillz said:


> Well he sure has bred a wide array of challenging & difficult frogs


You're right!!!! No one before in the history of frog keeping has ever successfully kept and bred DEEPSEA, SUNKIST, 501's or any of the other bogus, pretend, made up, make believe, lying, cheating, self indulgent, frogs that Dart Frog Warehouse currently has. 
They're my idols....


----------



## hypostatic

Dendro Dave said:


> Oh and we'll have those dang franken frogs to deal with. So we'll get to be the ones who break it to all those poor buyers that their frogs are basically worthless for breeding/selling and their husbandry (mixing) is frowned upon.


The thing I'm more worried about in general is that eventually these hundreds of hybrid frogs will get into the hobby, and they'll be bred with non hybrid frogs, and it'll just be a mess


----------



## kcexotics

hypostatic said:


> The thing I'm more worried about in general is that eventually these hundreds of hybrid frogs will get into the hobby, and they'll be bred with non hybrid frogs, and it'll just be a mess


Any lawyers out there? If any of the larger breeders ended up with a SAFE frog in there collection. Could DFW be sued for loss of sale and punitive damages??? This is merica


----------



## Boondoggle

I think it might be very effective if when the rest of us post frogs for sale we include something like...

*"From a collection containing no frogs that have ever passed through the Dart Frog Warehouse".*

...as a selling point. After all, considering the pathogen freight train being risked here as well as the danger we feel their business model is to the hobby, it is a positive selling point. New people to the site spend a lot of time in the classifieds and it will at least inform them that there is a debate as well as boosting the DFW web profile for Google searches.

Whatcha' think?


----------



## gturmindright

I think that's a great idea.


----------



## Scott

Why, to give them *more *publicity?

I don't think so.

s


gturmindright said:


> I think that's a great idea.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Boondoggle said:


> I think it might be very effective if when the rest of us post frogs for sale we include something like...
> 
> *"From a collection containing no frogs that have ever passed through the Dart Frog Warehouse".*
> 
> ...as a selling point. After all, considering the pathogen freight train being risked here as well as the danger we feel their business model is to the hobby, it is a positive selling point. New people to the site spend a lot of time in the classifieds and it will at least inform them that there is a debate as well as boosting the DFW web profile for Google searches.
> 
> Whatcha' think?


Great idea. I'd include dart frog connection to my personal exclusion list as well.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Scott said:


> Why, to give them *more *publicity?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> s


That is something to think about, but it might also bring DFW to the attention of any newbie who reads the ad. The more people who are warned, the better.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Scott said:


> Why, to give them *more *publicity?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> s


If searches lead to negative threads about them like this one, I don't see that being a bad thing.


----------



## FroggyKnight

I just realized........WE BROKE ONE-HUNDRED PAGES AND 1000 POSTS


----------



## Erikb3113

I just think it is insane that they boast and are proud of doing so many things that the true hobby as a WHOLE condemns. Selective breeding to assure (and guarantee) the best patterns? how do they do this if they are willing to use a random stranger across the country as a supplier? Shipping in the cold? " When other breeders care about your frogs to be, we only care about our money to be! We ship in conditions every other reputable and experienced breeder will not!" This is a selling point? I need to stop, getting so angry I'm mistyping...this will take forever if I try to get it all out. I've never seen so many plugs and copyright symbols in reference to animals. How disgusting


----------



## Boondoggle

Scott said:


> Why, to give them *more *publicity?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> s


The reasoning is so that when someone Googles DFW, they come up with more than just the official website devoid of perspective. All publicity is good publicity in show business, but not necessarily retail.

I'm not trying start a witch-hunt and I'm especially not interested in some do-not-cross-line-in-the-sand-R.Fry-us-versus-them war. I just think it might be something that is easy and subtly effective in letting newbies know that there is a discussion and they might want to look into that before making a purchase.


----------



## hypostatic

Scott said:


> Why, to give them *more *publicity?
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> s


Eh, not only that, but think of all of the frogs in the hobby that come from unknown lineage? Like, many of the azureus and leucs on the classified page fit this bill. Any of them could turn out to be DFW once they get released into the hobby.


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## rigel10

I said a few pages back that I have not followed this thread so far because it concern you overseas... But I realized that I was wrong. In fact, I thought later that breeders like these, who want to make money without any care, they can be a threat to everyone! Indeed, where else to go these hybrid frogs and/or these frogs of uncertain origins? I fear that breeders like these find outlet in Europe where, you know, controls are much less careful than from you. Mine is a well-founded fear. To this I say and I repeat: we must do something to stop these people. But what?
Perhaps it is not too late for the Dillons to run for cover, to entrust their business to experienced people, to try to put things right. People who acts as a guarantor so as to prevents that the policy of the gain and the desire of some noobs to have frogs without worrying about their origin destroy the work and passion of all the others.
I apologize for this long post and I hope it is clear in the meaning although some expression and/or words are wrong - but my English is so basic.


----------



## Boondoggle

hypostatic said:


> Eh, not only that, but think of all of the frogs in the hobby that come from unknown lineage? Like, many of the azureus and leucs on the classified page fit this bill. Any of them could turn out to be DFW once they get released into the hobby.


I'm trying to follow this. How does negative press affect this? I'm missing something.


----------



## Dendro Dave

hypostatic said:


> The thing I'm more worried about in general is that eventually these hundreds of hybrid frogs will get into the hobby, and they'll be bred with non hybrid frogs, and it'll just be a mess


I don't think they have a bunch of hybrids yet. I got the impression from everything I've read and the fact they haven't actually offered up any for sale, that was the plan but it was a future plan. 

He may have a mixed auratus viv setup, or an auratus/tinc viv and may have a few offspring even, but I don't think he is producing hybrids on a large scale yet. 

*If they think this backlash/drama is bad, they need to realize the moment actual hybrids/designer frogs start showing up it is going to get even worse for them.* Right now it is mostly speculation and theoretical based on what is on their website, but the moment they offer them for sale and pics of hybrids start showing up people are really going to loose their $#!+ over this  




rigel10 said:


> I said a few pages back that I have not followed this thread so far because it concern you overseas... But I realized that I was wrong. In fact, I thought later that breeders like these, who want to make money without any care, they can be a threat to everyone! Indeed, where else to go these hybrid frogs and/or these frogs of uncertain origins? I fear that breeders like these find outlet in Europe where, you know, controls are much less careful than from you. Mine is a well-founded fear. To this I say and I repeat: we must do something to stop these people. But what?
> Perhaps it is not too late for the Dillons to run for cover, to entrust their business to experienced people, to try to put things right. People who acts as a guarantor so as to prevents that the policy of the gain and the desire of some noobs to have frogs without worrying about their origin destroy the work and passion of all the others.
> I apologize for this long post and I hope it is clear in the meaning although some expression and/or words are wrong - but my English is so basic.


I think spreading the word among people that aren't really active on the forums and a general boycott are our 2 main weapons. It isn't super easy to make a living in this hobby and with all the negativity surrounding this venture they are already severely handicapped.

I think if we just maintain the pressure, spread the word and boycott they'll be forced to close their doors and at the very least we can put an end to their large scale operation. We may have to deal with Dillion as nuisance hobbyist for some time unless he gets out of the hobby entirely (one can only hope!), but again through spreading the word and boycotting him even on that level we can at least limit any damage he can do if not prevent it all together.


----------



## rigel10

I wonder what would become of these frogs... I can not imagine the worst.
But I think the visitors of trade fairs or frogdays, naive, curious, noob, which can take away two or three frogs so little money. I fear that some European seller purchases at low prices and sell these frogs here, in Europe, polluting the hobby. If I remember correctly someone has already taken some frogs from them and he expressed doubts about the morph on this forum. So the danger is real, IMO!


----------



## Dendro Dave

rigel10 said:


> I wonder what would become of these frogs... I can not imagine the worst.
> But I think the visitors of trade fairs or frogdays, naive, curious, noob, which can take away two or three frogs so little money. I fear that some European seller purchases at low prices and sell these frogs here, in Europe, polluting the hobby. If I remember correctly someone has already taken some frogs from them and he expressed doubts about the morph on this forum. So the danger is real, IMO!


You bring up good points... Unfortunately human greed whether it is for cheap frogs or the cash from selling frogs is a pretty powerful force. 

That alone represents a threat, but couple that with many people who aren't active in the online community (and/or noobs) being ignorant to what is going on and it gets even worse. We talked about this day coming in other threads about hybrids/designer darts... That eventually it might be unstoppable. I'd say this is our biggest battle yet in the war against that happening anytime soon. 

I suspect they will manage to sell off their stock over time (due to ignorance and/or greed on the part of potential buyers), possibly wholesaling some of it to vendors like LLL or others, unless we make it clear to them we won't deal with them if they deal with these people and their frogs. 

In the end though I'm not sure we can really stop the dissemination of their current stock into the hobby. I fear all we can really do is make it so not worth the time/effort/expense that the situation becomes untenable for them and they are forced to stop or at least scale down drastically. 

It would probably be a good idea for us to get in touch with any potential wholesale buyers we can think of, direct them to this thread and let them know that if they do business with these people we won't be happy. Maybe start a website?

Basically *these people are now Dart frog public enemy #1*... We just have to make sure everyone knows that and they get treated as such until they finally fade away.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Well I was reading their site again and saw this...

* We do not cross-breed (mix species), have never sold and will never sell any cross bred (mixed species) frog. Every frog and tadpole we sell is within a single species and was raised by us from the egg.*

So that sounds good, but still leaves the door open for them to mix morphs/localities since in their minds any morph/locality distinction is nonsense and we are all wrong for believing otherwise. 

*About our frogs and business: All of our frogs are raised in small groups of compatible individuals of the same species and variety to promote socialization and mate selection. *

That is a little better. Here they effectively say they will not mix "varieties" and they themselves make the distinction between "species" and "variety". So we can hold em to that now, and I would assume that means they've given up on their phenotyping/designer dart frog plans but since they won't talk to us directly we can't be sure. 

Also despite whatever the website says at this point I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. Especially since on their websites they are still pushing the Lotters crap, and ignoring our desire to keep morphs/localities, especially ones that would never meet in nature seperate and distinguishable from each other so we have some idea of what we are actually buying is actually what we wanted to buy. 

This is interesting...
*please note: For the safety, purity, integrity, and health of our SAFE™ frog lineages, inventories, and stock, we do NOT operate as a hobby. Thus, unlike the hobby, under no circumstances will we ever import, sell, distribute, handle, possess, warehouse, or in any way take possession of, any wild caught, diseased, or untested frogs, or poison (poisonous) dart frogs–we never have and never will!*

Ya ya, more distancing themselves from the hobby so they can maintain the illusion/delusion they have no ethical or moral responsibility to the community and the hobby they have profited off of. Oh and this suggest that if any fool actually did participate in their frog match program, or if DFW ever gets any more breeder stock that all those frogs will under go testing for disease (And toxicity?). 

Again I wouldn't hold my breath here especially since the increased expense in doing so would likely handicap that part of their venture's profitability, but they've put it in writing so now we can hold them to it and see how the reality plays out. I'd sure demand some testing documentation from them, and I wonder who pays for it? In fact I do demand that... *Ok DFW put your money where your mouth is and lets see the testing documentation!*

This is cute too...
*and because not all frogs sold in the hobbies under the common names are top quality, we will continue to use our trademarks in conjunction with the hobby names in order to designate us as the quality source thereof. *

I get the impression that it is their position frogs from most of us are probably crap. Ok ok maybe I'm going a bit to far there, but at the very least it shows they are more concerned with their marketing then whether or not they cause confusion in the hobby, but frankly I think I'm in favor of this because it does make their frogs stand out and hopefully more easily identifiable so that we can all avoid them.* Every noob needs to be informed that an* *"AURORA" or "APOLLO" is a frog they should stay away from.* 

Icing on the cake...
*There are no vet bills*

Well true I've never taken a frog to the vet, but I know people who have, and many pay for fecal exams or other testing so I find their willingness to just outright state "There are no vet bills", to be misleading and another underhanded marketing ploy. There are no vet bills for dogs or cats either... You're free to just let them die


----------



## Charlie Q

I really believe this whole nightmare could be ended if some of the established frog businesses band together and file a class action suit against them. they say that they won't even warehouse any "untested" frog, and they have completely failed to present any testing documentation. so basically, their claims are lies, and furthermore, they are using those lies to gain a competitive advantage in the market. this is false advertising. and just think about the customers purchasing frogs they think have been tested, any one of them could file a lawsuit also.

imagine trying to start a breeding program and so you specifically buy DFW "tested" and "SAFE" frogs. only to be met with absolutely NO documentation that any testing was ever done.

a lawsuit like this could put them out of business.


----------



## JayMillz

Here's a current list of what I could find of their SAFE Dart Frogs. Is it possible for a mod to sticky a list like this a convenient spot for new hobby members to be able to see? Something along the lines of "Frogs not recognized by members of the hobby" or something like that & include of brief description of why they aren't recognized and maybe a warning about DFW? That way hopefully a couple of new members have a quick access list of names to avoid? Even if it just helped show 1 new person the light, wouldn't it be worth it? 

APOLLO
AURORA
DEEPSEA
MALIBU
DENIM
EPOC
EVERGREEN
JADE
LASER
LUNAR BLUE
LUNAR GREY
MALIBU
NEON
ONYX
PATRIOT
PERIDOT
SAMURAI
SANTA
SUNBEE
SUNKIST
TITAN ORANGE

I don't know if you want to include what the original frogs were called before the name change. Something like, here's what they are originally called if you are interested in searching for them from one of the many reputable breeders on the board.


----------



## edwardsatc

The ignorance continues ...




safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Selective intentional line breeding is common and expected for appearance traits such as banded and fine spot Leucomelas. The standard variety having spots & bands illustrates the INTRAspecies mixing of Leucomelas (Leucs). INTERspecies mixing is ill-advised.
> 
> Anthonyi includes the various locale varieties such as Santa Isabel and Zarayunga. Line breding of these locales is common and encouraged, and yet mixed varietal groups of anthonyi will yield an INTRAspecies mix, as mates do not discriminate.
> 
> Very common line bred frog for stripe color. Yellow, orange, green, and blue stripes are most striking. Offspring may yield varying stripe color, if the parents have mismatched strips colors. Strip color is a dominant trait in most of these.
> 
> Several varieties are commonly line bred. Green-legged variety can be some of the most strikingly beautiful. Like their cousins the Terribilis, bicolor are a bullish bold frog and are slow to breed. A strong frog with a dominant presence.


US Dart Frog - Other Dart Frog Species




safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Classic Tinctorius
> The most recognized *dart frog experts (Lotters et al.) say some tinctorius are crossbreeds* & hobby names for tinctorius do not relate to an official classification. Hobby line breeding is the norm to preserve an ancestral tie to a location or appearance


No. They DO NOT say they are crossbreeds. 

Should be called dartfrogmorons.com


----------



## oddlot

What an idiot!The only place Santa Isabel and Zarayunga are "line bred"(cross bred ) is at this want to be breeder dump!If he did any research at all,he would know that breeding for traits especially different locales,then he would know not only is it not common,but frowned upon.It's also interesting that not only are they using Lotters material,now they are just flat out lying and making lotters look stupid to others that don't know better.Could it be considered slander if someone misquotes a professional in their field (to the point that not only were they stealing Lotters material) but putting lies into Lotters mouth?I wonder if they can be sued for misleading people and misrepresenting frogs not to mention using "trademarked material".I can't wait to see them crash and burn!


----------



## yerbamate

Looks like more creative ideas are being offered to deal with DFW, which is good. What if every single reader of this thread sent a little message under the "contact us" link at the bottom of all their different websites? I just did.


----------



## Mantella71

"Why breed and warehouse frogs when you are the best at your passion, and knowing colorful dart frogs are our passion. Also, each and every dealer will get a license to use our SAFE trademark in conjunction with their personal direct retail sale of our frogs! The license must be in writing from us. That my friends is huge! Our own marketing *studeis*, _yes real studies with real stores NOT pet shops_, prove the number one impediment to widespread dart frog uptake in the pet community is the silly notion these captive *bnred frogs *are posion frogs (i.e., poisonous dart frogs). 

Of course, our SAFE brand is a trademark and nothing more, but it is backed buy us as the source of completely harmless, 100% NON-toxic, perfectly healthy frogs with the best conformation as stated on our home page to this site. We will even show you insider tips on breeding and care that will make sure YOUR frogs are _best in show_, and get you started on a path to replace us!!! Why? *NMOBODY* has enough frogs to sell to the pet trade and this is the NEXT pet!!! "


Misspelled words, idiotic statements, and pure ignorance. I guess pet shops are not real stores. WTF. New Year's resolution, inform as many people to avoid DFW.


----------



## oddlot

yerbamate said:


> Looks like more creative ideas are being offered to deal with DFW, which is good. What if every single reader of this thread sent a little message under the "contact us" link at the bottom of all their different websites? I just did.



Haha,This actually isn't a bad idea.Maybe they will have to answer a question or two.


----------



## Brian317

So banded and fine spots are line breed for traits according to dartfrogmorons? What an idiot! Both represent a distinct population of Leucomelas in the wild. They get dumber and dumber every week... 

I'm about to the point of sending them a message, but really doubt it would do much of anything. Looking forward to them crashing and burning in 2014.


----------



## edwardsatc

Look at these two captures from their website . Just yesterday they were saying that MP was what they used in their cultures instead of vinegar ...


----------



## edwardsatc

More comedy



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Of course, we could add more media and then leave more flies in the cup to keep making new flies, *but melanogaster flies are a little sweaty when they emerge from their casings.* This makes a GREAT supplement delivery mechanism but powders like Repashy C+ perform poorly for adhesion, and the waste is way too high to make it a viable product for us, but *more on the adhesion and effectiveness studies later*.


Sweaty flies huh?

I'm sure we'll all be holding our breath waiting for them tovproduce all of these "studies" they keep promising. Should be quite entertaining if they ever do


----------



## edwardsatc

safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Our yield, i.e., the "pop" is truly outrageous...20-22cc average on Melanos, and a whopping 50 cc or more of Hydei under the right conditions, and most of it the first couple days of the bloom. It is like pouring coffee grounds out of a cup. (Right conditions? Yes, *we know which hole spacing geometry of a fabric fly lid works best in which temperature/humidity*. The numebr of times we resued it, etc. The lid manufacturer changed the hole geometry about 4 times in the past 20 months, and each time we had to adjust for maximum yield. They have it right now!)


1. Those are not really very impressive yields

2. I've personnaly have never seen a change in the hole geometry of any lids

3. Are we honestly supposed to believe that you've conducted all of these studies and gained all this expert understanding in less than two years

4. Stop the constant BS. It only further damages your credibility (not that I believe you ever had any). I'm beginning to think we're dealing with a pathological liar (lawyer).


----------



## oddlot

edwardsatc said:


> 1. Those are not really very impressive yields
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Stop the constant BS. It only further damages your credibility (not that I believe you ever had any). I'm beginning to think we're dealing with a pathological liar (lawyer).



I agree,those really aren't that impressive numbers of flies.I use MP in my culture media, and I do better than that.


Isn't pathological liar the websters definition of lawyer


----------



## InvertaHerp

They have something about MP on their site, but given the fact that MP is common and many of us have better FF cultures......


----------



## Boondoggle

I just spent some time perusing the official site(s) and it just seems like this is a venture from someone that knows a little about marketing, thinks they know a lot about marketing, and has read a bit of (conflicting) information on Darts, but has very little actual experience. Come to think of it, there's technically nothing wrong with any of that...just don't set yourself up as an expert because it makes you look dumb.

So here an open letter to DFW..for what it's worth.

1. Stop with the TM stuff. It's ridiculous and it's hard to take you seriously. 
2. There is a lot of conflicting information on Dart Frogs, stop quoting all of it.
3. Your SAFE program is hogwash and designed to dupe people who don't know better. It's like opening a restaurant and claiming "OUR food has never killed anyone". The implication is obvious. Can you even state a documented case where someone in the U.S. has ever been poisoned by a pet dart frog?
4. Stop anthropomorphizing frogs. They are not inquisitive, curious, smart, or friendly. They don't get "elated to see you" when you open the box. They do not bond to their owners. 
5. Your reasoning on why you're renaming species doesn't hold water. You've claimed that the original names were arbitrary trademarks and as they are generic they do not indicate the degree to which your quality sets you apart from others who sell frogs. Those names are/were not trademarks. They are used to TRY to keep track of locations/bloodlines/imports in an effort to not muddy the genetic waters and to keep the frogs as close to imports as possible. If you're COLOR phenotyping were to take off (it wont) it would frustrate those efforts and encourage crossbreeding. 
6. Boasting about being able to ship in any weather is naive and not something to be proud of. Technology has come a long way in the last decade and while those of us who ship animals have benefited from that, anyone who has shipped knows that between shipping company policy (even with your FedEx cert), shipping company practice, and extreme weather, there are many occasions when shipping is a bad idea. 
7. Stop bragging about (and trademarking) the process of asking a breeder to pick out frogs with one trait or another. I don't know any breeders who wouldn't do this.
8. Where you touch on genetics you seem to almost always be wrong. It's as if you've read a small amount of info, then tried to apply it to everything.
9. In several places you seem to infer that your frogs have all been "tested", or at least you are criticizing other breeders for selling untested frogs. Are all your frogs tested? What are they tested for? You seem to be vague on that. How often do you test? Is your assumption that once you've tested your founding stock you are in the clear?
10. You keep quoting "the experts" while inferring that frogs produced by hobbyists are unsafe and untested. I have news for you. The hobbyists ARE the experts. Lotter, et al, may be great sources of data (they are) but they won't help you very much when it comes to the actual day to day caring of frogs (feeding, preferred architecture, social aspects, recognizing stress etc, etc, etc). For that you need experience. Like the experience shared by the hobbyists you don't mind pissing off.

The thing is, your thinking really isn't that different from most people when they first approach the hobby. Most people have the same thoughts/theories before they have a few years of hand-on experience with frogs. They just haven't set the marketing machine on "turbo" around those ideas, like you have. You even have some decent ideas...Fly media with the water already added (Fly-do?), a burlap bug refugium (T-Bag?). You have good prices. You have a nice selection of beginner, easy to care for frogs. That's good enough to run a business. Stop chipping away at the validity of your company with all this gimmicky pretense.

Done.


----------



## asunderco

/t
Everything has been flamed. They will never make money off of anyone on this thread. We need a sticky mods, let's take care of our hobby with "places" to avoid.


----------



## Mantella71

"Stop anthropomorphizing frogs. They are not inquisitive, curious, smart, or friendly. They don't get "elated to see you" when you open the box. They do not bond to their owners."

Exactly. I have a degree in Animal Behavior and Psychology. I cannot stand when someone takes a minute amount of knowledge and apply it to a vast array of circumstances. I certainly don't attest to being an "expert" on anything, but their level of arrogance is astounding.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Dart frogs do display intelligence, and at least sometimes become accustomed to the weird beings who make food fall from the sky, but beyond that there is no real interaction.


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> The ignorance continues ...


*Ya it does... (99.99% of this isn't directed at Ed, I'm just expanding on his post )*
Apparently they don't know banded luecs are a completely different population of luecs. "Intraspecies" mixing  Intra means within same, so how is a species supposed to mate/reproduce if it doesn't mix with itself? For DFW's purposes here they should have said "interspecies mixing".

Oh and please DFW explain to me how spots and bands = proof that luecs are breeding with other species? Your understanding of the science here is flawed... again.

As already explained in other replies, these variations/adaptations can occur because of lots of genetic and/or environmental factors. Again you've misunderstood the science 

Inter-, intra-
The prefix inter- means between or among. The prefix intra- means within. For example, an interstate highway is one that goes between or among states, while an intrastate highway is one that exists only within a single state.

This is an important distinction, and invalidates your statements.

*Anthonyi*- Again, seperate populations that probably don't mix much if at all in nature, so by mixing them in captivity you create unnatural versions of the frogs. You stated on your website that you would not mix "species or varieties" (You made the distinction yourselves), If you do this then that makes you a liar... Encouraging others to do it which puts them at odds with the hobby community and more likely to fail makes you immoral/unethical
------------------------------------

_*
Originally Posted by safedartfrogs.com website
Classic Tinctorius
The most recognized dart frog experts (Lotters et al.) say some tinctorius are crossbreeds & hobby names for tinctorius do not relate to an official classification. Hobby line breeding is the norm to preserve an ancestral tie to a location or appearance*_

*Who are you to deem our desire to have a "wild type" frog that represents specific populations in nature as wrong?*

*Science may not give every "morph" or locality a different scientific name but you can bet they are aware and acknowledge that many of these will never meet in nature to crossbreed, and that they represent different genetics/seperate populations then other frogs of the same species elsewhere. 
We want our frog collections/hobby to represent what is found in nature. 

But you promised on your site that you woudn't mix "species or varieties" and make the distinction between the two yourself.(What is a variety if not a color morph and/or different locality?), so what does all this matter? 

...Why are you harping on this unless you plan to break your word at some point? *

First there is a difference between breeding offspring from one pair together and breeding those offspring back to the parents and then doing that over multiple generations. Some limited line breeding is going to occur because of the difficulty of pairing up unrelated animals. But that isn't the same as line breeding for specific traits, and either way *The community encourages as much unrelated breeding as possible as long as it is the same species and morph.* 

At worst we tolerate some line breeding like for sky blue Azureus and fine spot luecs because they've just been around so long and most of us didn't know that it was some jerk who created them rather then them being an actual new morph. Many of us now that we know would rather see these frogs mixed back in with the rest of the population and this is in fact happening. *Again you fail to have an understanding of the hobby, the science, hell much of anything at this point and seem to be attempting to undermine many of our established practices for no other reason then your own greed * 





edwardsatc said:


> No. They DO NOT say they are crossbreeds.
> 
> Should be called dartfrogmorons.com


*Amen*

And a distinction must be made between the very limited line breeding that occurs when someone pairs up offspring from their breeder pair VS breeding offspring back onto that pair and then doing that over multiple generations for specific traits . Again DFW exaggerates, misinforms, and attempts to skew the truth to further their own agenda. 

*Please show us proof DFW that none of your pairs are related?* While we encourage unrelated pairing, it is often difficult and expensive and/or time consuming. Those offspring get disseminated into the hobby and mixed with others from unrelated pairs so it is substantially different then line breeding for specific traits.* I find it suspect that you so willfully gloss over that fact.*


----------



## FroggyKnight

I couldn't have said it better myself.

I very much appreciate that post.


----------



## Dendro Dave

FroggyKnight said:


> I couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> I very much appreciate that post.


I just can't get over how misinformed they are and/or willing to spread that misinformation to potential customers  (who will then enter our hobby, and we'll have to re-educate them) 

Ignorance + arrogance + greed = Wascher (IMO)


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

InvertaHerp said:


> Dart frogs do display intelligence, and at least sometimes become accustomed to the weird beings who make food fall from the sky, but beyond that there is no real interaction.


They have a hellava lot more intelligence than those people.

John


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Dillon Wascher said:


> Thanks Daryl! The 1400 was the number we picked last night before we submitted the ad, and it was a conservative guess last night. The classified did not get posted until a little while ago. In the interim, Dillon used a calculator to count the number of frogs offered directly from the website and he got 2020. The numbers were generated originally by looking at/in each enclosure and then tabulating them. No guesstimates! The backoffice spreadsheet for Q2-Q4 only gave 1774, but I did not include count some pairs and adults and others allocated for retail sale right now. Dillon changed the number under his signature to be over 3,000 frogs in house (as a facility), but that includes Q1 (0-3 month old froglets too). We look forward to chatting with you! Oh yeah, what do you think of the shipping idea we have for the hobby: ShipYourFrogs
> 
> (As to the short time span, Dillon harvests every single egg. We have "egg reports" for every couple of days and could provide anyone the data match to our frogs and eggs for correlation. We will show them to you personally, but not share them openly.)


So what you're saying is, you've tested ALL of the 1400 or 2020 or 1774 or 3000 frogs you have in your possession? That includes all of the Q1 (whatever the hell that made up designation means) frogs?
And we're supposed to trust you as you blow back and forth like a windsock? You can't even count the number of frogs you have correctly without contradicting yourselves, much less the scientific misinformation, or the trademarking of invented terms, or the renaming of long term and widely accepted morph/locales, or the presumption your shipping practices are ground breaking when in reality they have been S.O.P. for most froggers for a number of years, all the while alienating the hobbyists which would constitute 98% of your potential business. 
Give up the charade. The only one to ever hide behind a curtain was the Wizard of Oz, and all it took was a yippy, ankle biting dog to expose him as a fraud. The true frog hobby is much more successful than Toto in that endeavor.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So what you're saying is, you've tested ALL of the 1400 or 2020 or 1774 or 3000 frogs you have in your possession? That includes all of the Q1 (whatever the hell that made up designation means) frogs?
> And we're supposed to trust you as you blow back and forth like a windsock? You can't even count the number of frogs you have correctly without contradicting yourselves, much less the scientific misinformation, or the trademarking of invented terms, or the renaming of long term and widely accepted morph/locales, or the presumption your shipping practices are ground breaking when in reality they have been S.O.P. for most froggers for a number of years, all the while alienating the hobbyists which would constitute 98% of your potential business.
> Give up the charade. The only one to ever hide behind a curtain was the Wizard of Oz, and all it took was a yippy, ankle biting dog to expose him as a fraud. The true frog hobby is much more successful than Toto in that endeavor.


Good points...

I'd really like to know the percentage of the frogs within each of their breeding pairs that are unrelated to each other. Given the number of frogs they claim to produce, I have a hard time believing they have bought all unrelated pairs and formed any other pairs with unrelated offspring. I'd imagine that unless they bought a crap load of unrelated breeding pairs, that they'd have to breed the offspring from some of these pairings back to the parents or to each other at least to produce as many frogs as they claim this quickly. That would of course constitute the line breeding they've been going on about. 

Of course the ideal is to match up unrelated animals (and many people try when possible), but especially for some species/morphs that is very difficult to do without a lot of time and expense... if it is even possible at all given the limited number of founder stock in some case. So if they are going to go on and on about all the line breeding going on, I'd really like to see some proof that all their pairs are unrelated, and that they aren't pairing up related offspring or breeding offspring back to the parents. 

Seriously and for all posterity, anyone reading this... *DO NOT TRUST THESE PEOPLE*. They are wrong about so much of the science, misleading or straight up lying about so much else, and as Rusty put it "blow back and forth like a windsock?" (IMO)

You really wanna deal with people like that just to save a few bucks on frogs?


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> *Ya it does... (99.99% of this isn't directed at Ed, I'm just expanding on his post )*


You mean Donn.... 



> _*
> Originally Posted by safedartfrogs.com website
> Classic Tinctorius
> The most recognized dart frog experts (Lotters et al.) say some tinctorius are crossbreeds *_


_* 

Actually this is true. There are some "named" crossbred tinctorius out there. I would have linked to the tropical experience morph guide as an example but that site seems to be down at the moment. 



Dendro Dave said:



First there is a difference between breeding offspring from one pair together and breeding those offspring back to the parents and then doing that over multiple generations. Some limited line breeding is going to occur because of the difficulty of pairing up unrelated animals. But that isn't the same as line breeding for specific traits, and either way The community encourages as much unrelated breeding as possible as long as it is the same species and morph. 

Click to expand...

 

I'm going to have to say that if you look at the health of the population the damage from the line breeding in both cases is the same. In both cases you are reducing genetic diversity which is not a good thing. 

I don't agree with DFW and/or their methods or approach but people should keep to the facts. 

The problem I keep coming back to with respect to this thread is that the hobby had at least two options that would have rendered not only this threat to the hobby as non-existent but reduced or controlled the risk of inbreeding to the captive populations. In both cases, the participation of the hobby was pretty much non-existent resulting in a shut down of the programs. As a consequence, the hobby is now being forced into a situation where they have to fight a rear guard action against what could decimate the captive population of a number of dendrobatids. 


Some comments

Ed*_


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Agreed Ed, I think at this point all we`re doing is repeating ourselves and insulting them.
Not that there`s anything wrong with that.
I was actually thinking of suggesting on lifting the ban on them so they can at least respond.
But, the more I think about it the more I think it would get REALLY ugly REALLY fast.
I don`t know.

John


----------



## carola1155

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I was actually thinking of suggesting on lifting the ban on them so they can at least respond.
> But, the more I think about it the more I think it would get REALLY ugly REALLY fast.
> I don`t know.


Not gonna happen John... They were actually the ones that requested we ban their accounts.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> You mean Donn....
> 
> I shortened edwardsatc to Ed... Sorry
> 
> Actually this is true. There are some "named" crossbred tinctorius out there. I would have linked to the tropical experience morph guide as an example but that site seems to be down at the moment.
> 
> Agreed, but I think they need to respect the consensus that we'd rather not have people creating more new ones (for many reasons already discussed)
> 
> I'm going to have to say that if you look at the health of the population the damage from the line breeding in both cases is the same. In both cases you are reducing genetic diversity which is not a good thing.
> 
> I slightly disagree since it seems to me that breeding them back on the parents and/or for specific traits is going to degrade the gene pool faster then just people buying 4 froglets and ending up with a pair which they breed and then disseminate those froglets out into the hobby. (But that is more a feeling/assumption then something I can prove). You may be right since focused line breeding based on specific traits or breeding back to the parents is less common on a large scale (for now), but I agree that genetic diversity is good... It is just difficult in many cases because of limited founder stock and then the practical/logistical issues that arise from price/availability etc.. etc... My guess is if people would have always waited till it was possible to pair up unrelated frogs many of our species/morphs wouldn't exist or would teeter on extinction (in the hobby)... But again the more diversity (short of designer frogs), the better.
> 
> 
> I don't agree with DFW and/or their methods or approach but people should keep to the facts.
> Amen... I'm trying to focus on facts but may have let my emotions get the best of me. Is there somewhere I'm dead wrong? I'd like a chance to correct myself, or make my case.
> 
> The problem I keep coming back to with respect to this thread is that the hobby had at least two options that would have rendered not only this threat to the hobby as non-existent but reduced or controlled the risk of inbreeding to the captive populations. In both cases, the participation of the hobby was pretty much non-existent resulting in a shut down of the programs. As a consequence, the hobby is now being forced into a situation where they have to fight a rear guard action against what could decimate the captive population of a number of dendrobatids.
> 
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I think participation in those programs is admirable and we all should make an effort to sustain or increase diversity (within reason, not pseudoscience based frog matching), but that kinda wide spread organization is difficult for a variety of reasons (not saying it isn't worth wild to try though).




Enlightened Rogue said:


> Agreed Ed, I think at this point all we`re doing is repeating ourselves and insulting them.
> Not that there`s anything wrong with that.
> I was actually thinking of suggesting on lifting the ban on them so they can at least respond.
> But, the more I think about it the more I think it would get REALLY ugly REALLY fast.
> I don`t know.
> 
> John


True at this point we are probably beating a dead horse. It's just so dang frustrating though! GRR... 

Are they banned from replying? I didn't realize that... I'd kinda like to hear what they have to say for themselves, and will even apologize for the shots I took at them for sticking their head in the sand and not talking to us (if that is the case, (but only during the time they weren't allowed to respond). It might get ugly and might be some work for the mods but I do think they should be able to respond, *although on second thought they did basically disavow the entire hobby and try to seperate themselves from us so arguably maybe they've lost the right to respond at this point. *


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> Not gonna happen John... They were actually the ones that requested we ban their accounts.


So that they can say that they are "not part of the hobby".

BTW, another domain name:

tadkits.com


----------



## Dendro Dave

carola1155 said:


> Not gonna happen John... They were actually the ones that requested we ban their accounts.


Oh sorry I was busy writing and/or editing my earlier post so I missed this nugget of info. 



edwardsatc said:


> So that they can say that they are "not part of the hobby".
> 
> BTW, another domain name:
> 
> tadkits.com


Ya, and probably so they can claim martyr status in their own minds if not out right proclaim it to their potential customers... "Omg we were banned, we didn't even get to defend ourselves", (wouldn't put it past them at this point)


----------



## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> Actually this is true. There are some "named" crossbred tinctorius out there. I would have linked to the tropical experience morph guide as an example but that site seems to be down at the moment.


Agreed, but my point was that the statement was not made by Lotters et al.,which appears to be their sole source of information. A source which they continually misquote, misunderstand, take out of context, and twist to fit their own agenda of hoodwinking novice and entry level froggers. 

For people who claim to be doing a lot of "research", they don't seem to understand the concept of a thorough literature search or even an understanding of the difference between peer-reviewed literature and wikipedia. For example, clicking on the "we do not use methyl paraben" logo on their homepage leads to a copy of the wikipedia entry on MP.


----------



## oddlot

Dendro Dave said:


> Ya, and probably so they can claim martyr status in their own minds if not out right proclaim it to their potential customers... "Omg we were banned, we didn't even get to defend ourselves", (wouldn't put it past them at this point)



Haha,what are they going to say,"we've been banned from multiple frog sites because the entire hobby doesn't like us or our practices and misinformation!"


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

carola1155 said:


> Not gonna happen John... They were actually the ones that requested we ban their accounts.


Tom, I almost wish you didn`t even tell me that. How much better it could have been for them (and us) if they did things right and didn`t piss off the people who pretty much started this wonderful and special hobby of our`s, and for what?
It`s a total insult to the sponsors here who bust their rear end for probably pennies in profit 
to sell quality frogs with all the correct information.
I swear man, back in the day when I didn`t care I would have hopped on the first plane down there to pay them a little visit.
Mods, this is not a threat....we would just have a friendly conversation.

John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

So they claim they ship year round. The temp up here is going to be -5 this weekend.
Even they wouldn`t....or would they?

John


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## Julio

you can ship in those temps as long as you double box stuff. i have with no problems.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Julio said:


> you can ship in those temps as long as you double box stuff. i have with no problems.


I wouldn`t trust them enough to do that.

John


----------



## carola1155

Just a reminder... we will not tolerate any comments/references directed towards or involving the children in this situation. Even if it is clearly a joke, it is not allowed.

*Going forward, anyone violating this will receive infractions and/or time off. *

Also, fake quotes are not and have never been allowed.


----------



## JayMillz

carola1155 said:


> Just a reminder... we will not tolerate any comments/references directed towards or involving the children in this situation. Even if it is clearly a joke, it is not allowed.
> 
> *Going forward, anyone violating this will receive infractions and/or time off. *
> 
> Also, fake quotes are not and have never been allowed.


Dillon doesn't fall into this category since he's a legal adult, correct?

Edit: I don't know what was said for this comment to be made, I'm assuming it was deleted. I'm not trying to fuel the fire right now or be a smartass. I've just been walking on infraction point thin ice.


----------



## carola1155

JayMillz said:


> Dillon doesn't fall into this category since he's a legal adult, correct?
> 
> Edit: I don't know what was said for this comment to be made, I'm assuming it was deleted. I'm not trying to fuel the fire right now or be a smartass. I've just been walking on infraction point thin ice.


That is correct. However, it should be noted that personal insults are also not allowed. You can use facts/logic/etc to pick apart their business model/credibility/etc etc all you guys want, but we do have to draw a line somewhere. Try to keep things reasonable and fact based. 

and again, don't bring the other kids in the family into it. I know they have been brought up to a lesser degree before and we aren't about to go sifting through this entire thread to remove everything... but going forward we will be more strict about this. 

If anyone has any more concerns about this, please contact me privately so this thread can get back "on topic".


----------



## oddlot

Actually doesn't the rules say we can't insult MEMBERS...... They aren't members


----------



## Scott

I haven't visited this thread in a few days (it's been peaceful in my world ... ) but I will say it's better to just stick to facts.

Don't make it personal or insulting.

If "we" do go that way - they can point at "us" and say we're the issue.

We're not - so let's try not get them any ammunition.

s


----------



## FroggyKnight

Thank you for keeping the peace guys


----------



## Scott

For the record - they were not banned here.

They asked us to 'turn off' their profiles.

We did that.

s


----------



## InvertaHerp

What does it mean to turn off a profile?


----------



## Scott

They were banned - but at their own request. 

Normally when someone gets banned - it's because of their behavior.

s


InvertaHerp said:


> What does it mean to turn off a profile?


----------



## scoy

Why would anyone ask to be banned. Do they not have enough self control to stop accepting email and just not come on anymore. Sounds like the father is a control freak who wont allow his family to make up there own minds.


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## gturmindright

They must have a full time internet guy. With all the websites and angry emails, separating them from the real ones, taking internet payments etc. Crazy.


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## Scott

They were "rejecting" us. 

Also - they didn't say "ban" us - they just wanted their profile(s) deleted. We don't do that - banning is as close to that as we get.

s


scoy said:


> Why would anyone ask to be banned. Do they not have enough self control to stop accepting email and just not come on anymore. Sounds like the father is a control freak who wont allow his family to make up there own minds.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> I think participation in those programs is admirable and we all should make an effort to sustain or increase diversity (within reason, not pseudoscience based frog matching), but that kinda wide spread organization is difficult for a variety of reasons (not saying it isn't worth wild to try though).


Unless the genetics of the population are known, then you cannot preserve even needed genetic diversity. For example, each inbreeding decreases the genetic diversity in a statistical manner.. and this includes those that code for immune function and disease resistance. I've repeatedly provided examples of this in the past from the literature. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> Agreed, but my point was that the statement was not made by Lotters et al.,which appears to be their sole source of information. A source which they continually misquote, misunderstand, take out of context, and twist to fit their own agenda of hoodwinking novice and entry level froggers.


No, I understood your position on this, you were clear all along. The problem as that in other posts, there was a stance being taken that gave the impression that hybrids don't occur or aren't already in the hobby to any extent. This is what I was trying to correct. 

For people who claim to be doing a lot of "research", they don't seem to understand the concept of a thorough literature search or even an understanding of the difference between peer-reviewed literature and wikipedia. For example, clicking on the "we do not use methyl paraben" logo on their homepage leads to a copy of the wikipedia entry on MP.[/QUOTE]

Laughs... there can be different interpretations of "research"... and it doesn't mean that the person understands the topic (assuming they weren't deliberately choosing to falsify the data on purpose). At a nearby zoo, they had gotten Douc langurs (Pygathrix ssp) and a researcher was studying their behaviors and had the staff collecting data. The staff was required to mark down the behavior in 5 minute increments in pencil. It turned out later that if the researcher though the marked behaviors didn't make sense in a linear fashion, it must be incorrect and would "correct" the data...... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## scoy

Lol, was the researcher a Wascher?


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

scoy said:


> Lol, was the researcher a Wascher?


Not only that but they were forming a strong bond with their keeper.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Scott said:


> They were "rejecting" us.
> 
> Also - they didn't say "ban" us - they just wanted their profile(s) deleted. We don't do that - banning is as close to that as we get.
> 
> s


So by being banned can they at least read this and not respond, or they can`t see it at all unless they`re on someone else`s computer.


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## oddlot

I'd imagine that as long as they don't sign in(obviously they can't)they could read it as a guest but can't respond.But I'm not 100% on that because the account Is banned by IP address.


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## BrainBug

I'm pretty sure they are monitoring this. After grammatical errors where pointed out and I remarked on a product those pages went down.


----------



## edwardsatc

More moronic musings from the "experts" ... oh boy ...




safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Line Breeding, Cross-Breeding, and the
> Urban Legends around the notion of a
> “US Hobby” different from a “European Hobby”
> 
> First Draft – Subject to revision
> Much of the following information is taken from the expert work by Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel and Schmidt, titled "Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry". It is an undisputed fact, NO OTHER work compares to the authority of the Lotters, et al., work. Still, the detractors who choose to discredit Lotters et al. do so not on the merits of what they write, but because they are European by descent claiming a US hobby differs from a European hobby.
> US Dart Frog embraces all who love the frogs and all who support them, wherever they live and irrespective of descent. We do not get caught up into the Hatfield and McCoy like US based dispute over who’s who, and the rules of an American hobby purist. In fact, that’s what makes this so fun. We can all agree to disagree with civility, character, and professionalism, as we do now. Moreover, in this global age and the fact we as a people on the same plant should come to expect diversity, we are glad we all embrace the opinions, leadership, and pursuits of others, as different.
> With all that said, the Lotters work is the treatise on the subject of these beautiful frogs. Even so, Lotters data does not include the data associated with the captive rearing of thousands of frogs like US Dart Frog has today. Our data tends to reprove Lotters and expand their basis.
> +++++++++++++
> On the subject of Line Breeding and PolyMorphism, we provide this commentary.
> Background definitions:
> 
> “Phenotype” means: the observable constitution of an organism, specifically the appearance of an organism resulting from the interaction of the genotype and the environment.
> “Genotype” means: the genetic makeup of an organism or group of organisms with reference to a single trait, set of traits, or an entire complex of traits–the sum total of genes transmitted from parent to offspring.
> "Polymorph" refers to an organism having more than one adult form. Stated another way, “polymorph” of a species of animal (e.g., frogs) or plant exhibit polymorphism.
> "Polymorphism" is the state or condition of being polymorphous.
> “Polymorphous” means the existence of an organism in several form or color varieties.
> "Inbreeding" means to breed individuals of a closely related group repeatedly; to engender; to breed from unions between closely related individuals, especially over several generations to develop within certain traits.
> ***
> On the definitional foundation provided above, the experts (Lotters, et al.) say Dendrobates, including the dart frog species Tinctorius ("tinc"), Auratus, and Leucomelas, are polymorphic within their species and many of the hobby frogs in the hobby are the result of captive cross-breeding. (Referring back to the Lotters excerpts.) More specifically, they say the names of the frogs are of no scientific relevance. Not surprisingly then, a green and bronze, blue and black, green and black, auratus are named for their color line, and nothing more. See also, Phenotyping.
> By way of example, all auratus pairs are known to yield offspring with variation in color and pattern. For example, green and bronze, aqua and bronze, turquoise and bronze, frogs can come from the same parents. The question then arises: "where were they caught, i.e., what locale?" The question itself can only apply to the wild frogs. Captive bred frogs are not caught. The offspring are most assuredly not from that locale, so the only thing left is the visible attributes and their similarity or dissimilarity to the wild caught ancient ancestors. To perpetuate the ancestral line IS line breeding. The retort is a “seeking to preserve the natural.” Such a retort does not answer the open questions posed by Lotters, one of which is: does the polymorphic nature of the frogs and the variances in color and pattern actually help propagate the helath and vitality of the species as they choose their own mates, while line breeding is forced pairings?
> Nevertheless, many use the locale as a justification for line breeding, which in itself is not bad. We offer the El Cope and Super Blue as well, and ours came from captive bred parent stock of the highest quality. So, quality and helth of the forg is THE TEST. Where line breeding falls apart is where the end result is inferior than the previous generation. This same logic holds true for propagation of all species–the principle is called adapative survival or evolution. All living things adaptively evolve. Thus, the locale line breeder uses the selective pairings of frogs to perpetuate a characteristic, and while the El Cope, Highland Bronze, Super Blue, are examples of line bred Auratus, they do so for the personal gain in collection or commerce. For the tincs, one need not look any further than the names given each variety. They are not scientific names by any means and Lotters calls them “utter nonsense” if there is an attempt to make them official in the context of taxonomy. Tincs are not pure, they are polymorphic becasue they have survived and evolbved. Basic phenotype studies, and we have done tons, strongly suggests many tinc variants are simply the INTERbreed mixes the experts Lotters talk about.
> Thus, while some prefer to restrict the definition of line breeding for convenience based on the somewhat negative impression it gives, the restriction is not necessary. In the context of selective, controlled, breeding of frogs to accentuate certain specific visible traits, and not apply it to perpetuating those same characteristics, is irreconcileable. Again, while this is often presented/defended in the context of "trying to preserve the natural state of the imported line", or seeking to preserve the original variety, either way, it is line breeding.Moreover, the true experts on wild dart frogs, Lotters et al., assume the concept of polymorphism is well understood in the context of a "tinc is a tinc", and "an auratus is an auratus", and naming unrelated to taxonomy is nonsense which means the "lines" of a polymorphic species is the "result" of varietal in-species interbreeding. Still, polymorphism cannot exist within an isolated group that has never been infiltrated with other genetic material outside the group. To say polymorphism is the spontaneous generation of a closed group discounts procreation which is the wrong direction for effective advocacy, and reconciliation with adaptive evolution, and lest we forget these are frogs. Their entire early life cycle is evolutionary.
> 
> The Lotters group of scientists spent years in the field and they say these frogs do interbreed within the species, and the varietal combinations are the genetic meldings of those premixed parents-polymorphic frogs. Couple that with our own studies that show, and prove, mates of the same species do not always prefer to breed with a mate having the same traits if given a freedom to choose their mate. For example, fine spot frogs as a line do not usually prefer fine spot frogs like them. Lotters raised this question and we answered it. Translating this to the wild and the observations of Lotters, the expert's position is confirmed and polymorphism is better understood in the proper context, not some confusing spin on a theme to avoid the truth as the opponent of Lotters prefer.
> Still further, in the context of natural selection, unless natural selection leads to extinction of a species and not adaptation for survival and longevity, polymorphism would have run its course in the tinc and auratus, but nobody is saying they do not, or cannot, intermix in the context of variety within the same species in the wild. To suggest it doesn't happen in the wild means polymorphism is not found, and would also suggest the behaviors of captive bred frogs differ from their wild ancestors which is incongruent to the entire assumption of survival and perpetutation of species. Assuming survival of the species is most critical, and captive bred populations do not influence the wild populations and vice versa, and given captive bred frogs live considerably longer than their wild cousins provided they are not line and inbred, adaptation for survival is not an issue.
> Thus, when the fanfare of a "new Tinc" is on the horizon of the hobby, it would be good for all to know what that actually means. It, in fact and as a matter of fact, means a variation in the varietal sense is now being marketed as something new, but not a new species, a new tinc which can only mean a variety of INTERbred tinc as before. For example, how much more is a Western Bakhuis than a terrific Cobalt? Some may say, no it is truly a new discovery! Playing along suspecting this cannot always be true, how then did this newly discovered frog ever get smuggled from the jungle legally? Was it the unicorn group that is now plucked from the wild irresponsibly by the wild frog trade? Responsibility says new tincs should be captive bred, and assuming the importer is a reputable importer, the new tinc should have been captive bred. Hence, the "discovery" is inversely proportional to the depth of information the market already possesses about species identification and whether or not they "agree" with the experts like Lotters, etc.
> 
> We simply wish to raise and study the thousands of frogs we breed and sell as the coolest pets in the world, all captive bred! Wishing you all the best!


Link to page:

Breeding


----------



## edwardsatc

More proof that reading the literature doesn't necessarily mean they understand it ... 



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Dendrobates WAGLER, 1830
> 
> Type Species: Rana tinctoria CUVIER, 1797
> 
> Etymology: The generic name is derived from Dendron (Greek: tree) and bates (Greek: runner).
> 
> The species of the genus Dendrobates sensu stricto [“in the strictest sense”] resemble each other quite closely and will often interbreed. They share a sturdy build and a rather large SVL. (SVL means the distance from the tip of the snout to the cloacal opening. Cloacal opening is a kind word for anus. ) "Almost throughout, the species Dendrobates are polymorphic, so that it is not always easy to distinguish between species and varieties." Lotters, et al., Poison Frogs, page 82.
> Lotters et al. page 82
> 
> Below the systematic category of the species lies that of subspecies. In general it is given little attention, however. Furthermore, there are terms such as variety, variant, race and many others. These are no systematic categories, but only serve to express variability within a species. Terrarium keepers often like to hang on to vernacular names associated with these, as is the case, for example, for the multitude of varieties of polymorphic species (e.g., Dendrobates tinctorius including, but in no way limiting by way of further example the cobalt, powder grey/blue, oyapok, etc., and any other “new tinc” the hobby names.) (See, Lotters, et al., Poison Frogs, page 85.)
> 
> In fact, the experts Lotters et al. go on to say: “This practice [of naming varieties of frogs as if it is the official word on the subject] may sometimes lead to misunderstanding and misconceptions, and from the viewpoint of nomenclature it is utter nonsense. The misunderstanding and misconceptions is the very fact that tinctorius are polymorphic which means they do interbreed [within the species] and the truth, if it be accepted by the hobby, requires numerous varieties as they INTERbreed (within species). (See above).
> 
> Experts, Lotters et al. page 85
> 
> (The colors of the tinctorius are evolutionary and may play a role in warning off predators by territory, i.e., as the territories differ so too do the type of predators. The colors and varieties may also play a role in mate selection, and hence further interbreeding of the species varieties as per Lotters et al.. (See Lotters et al. pages 85-86).)
> 
> In the chapter for Dendrobates, Lotters et al., begin with this:
> 
> The Experts, Lotters et al. Page 530
> 
> INTERspecies breeding (e.g., tinctorius with auratus, truncatus with leucomelas, etc.) discouraged! US Dart Frog does not INTERspecies breed, we never have and never will! Subspecies is not an issue with tinctorius, even though there are DNA differences relating to coloration and pattern variations.
> 
> With regard to tinctorius, [m]ore than forty varieties are known for which a range of vernacular names exist. (Info Box 4.1). Molecular genetic research has recently proved what SILVERSTONE (1975b) had already presumed, i.e., that this variability of colorations and patterns is not indicative of separate species, but is really an expression of variability in one single taxon. Dendrobates azureus has also turned out to be a local variety and must therefore be treated as a junior synonym of tinctorius. Lotters, et al., Poison Frogs, page 546.


Link to page: 

Expert Understanding


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## Charlie Q

They are definitively stating that they will by hybridizing morphs without regard for what anyone else thinks. 

and with COMPLETE disrespect of the english language...


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## Enlightened Rogue

I have to tell you my head hurts after reading that one.

Also health is spelled H-E-A-L-T-H not"helath or helth"


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## Charlie Q

personal favorite: "evolbved"


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## Enlightened Rogue

"we as a people on the same plant" is also a good one.


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## oldlady25715

Enlightened Rogue said:


> "we as a people on the same plant" is also a good one.


I think that's a Martin Luther King quote in spirit of the upcoming holiday.


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## Boondoggle

Sigh...Truly, that's a dizzying intellect.

If they are monitoring...DFW, I take no issue with what the "experts" have written. The conclusions you make from them is where you get yourself in trouble. You make assumptions on a customer mindset that are exactly the opposite of the market trends that exist and have existed over the last 25 years. You would know that if you had been around the hobby very long. You would know that if you listened as much as you spoke. If I'm not mistaken, your referring to interbreeds as opposed to hybrids, so let's address that to keep things simple. Just a few points for your consideration. 

You keep claiming that since frogs can and will interbreed, then they must also do so in nature and therefore there is no real "just like nature" standard to pursue. That COMPLETELY discounts the geographic barriers that are present and are the reason that there is very little interbreeding in the wild. How did you miss that?

Secondly, I suspect many of your "et al", while being incomparable, may not be the best reference on what the current condition of "the hobby" is. Many of those books are decades old, and while they may touch on the hobby, it was never their focus. When you say that there are interbreeds in the hobby...because you read it, that is no doubt true, but the degree to which that is true is unknown. I do know one thing though, that when the lineage of a frog comes into question people stop breeding that frog. That is especially true when there is a new import of a comparable frog (You would be thinking of Giant Oranges, Reginas and Matecho right now if you had been around long enough to understand that point). That being the case, it's quite possible that there are less interbreeds in the hobby than there have ever been. Again, no one knows for sure but there certainly is more info/hobby contact available now than there has ever been. 

As I mentioned frogs with murky lineages fall out of favor and tend not to get bred. If a frog is determined to definitely be a cross it becomes absolutely unsellable. Try posting an Agreja and tell me how that goes. That in turn creates more demand for imports with direct lineages to natural frogs. You have presented yourself as heroic in your aim to discourage importation and encourage captive bred frogs. You have also defended the production of crossbreeds. These two statements are conflicting and completely disregard market trends that exist in the hobby as well as the "collector" mentality of most in the hobby. If you successfully encourage people to crossbreed frogs you will be encouraging the market to seek out new imports. 

You would know that if you weren't so wet behind the ears, You would know that if you weren't dismissive of "the hobby", and you would know that if you had read enough by the people who actually breed the frogs. So next time you feel like posting a dogmatic tome based on a paragraph you read in Lotters, instead get on a frog forum and start lurking through old threads.

The experts are indispensable. Keep reading them, but we're talking about a hobby here and, as the bard said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows".


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## Enlightened Rogue

Found another gem- "So, quality and helth of the forg is the test"

I feel so much better that they`re concerned about the helth of the forg.


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## edwardsatc

Reading their "expert" interpretation of population biology and genetics is like listening to my car mechanic tell me about the inner workings of the space shuttle ...

I'd really love to continue to address these cockamamie tales they're trying to spin, but what's the point? They either A) lack a even a rudimentary understanding of the most basic scientific concepts or B) are trying to spin the science in a manner that fattens their wallet. 

Whatever the root cause, responsible hobbyists will continue to properly educate and inform novice hobbyists until safedartfrogs.com has delightfully crashed and burned.

I like how Rick and Dillon are now manufacturing controversy by labeling hobbyists as "opponents of Lotters et al.". Wrong again boys, we are opponents of safedartfrogs.com and their ignorant misrepresentation of statements made by Lotters, et al. along with a complete dismissal of the current science and peer-reviewed literature. 

Small mindedness or completely deceptive (and laughable) marketing strategy? My opinion is ... both.

107 pages, 1078 posts, 79,700 views ... and you still don't get it!


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## JayMillz

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Found another gem- "So, quality and helth of the forg is the test"
> 
> I feel so much better that they`re concerned about the helth of the forg.


Rick is probably just dyslexic with his spelling...and mentality in general. Evrey dAy is teh opposyte daye in Rick-wurld!


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## edwardsatc

BrainBug said:


> I'm pretty sure they are monitoring this. After grammatical errors where pointed out and I remarked on a product those pages went down.


Bottom line is that don't have the knowledge, experience, or the balls to come on here (or any other forum) and have an intellectual debate.


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## edwardsatc

edwardsatc said:


> Bottom line is that don't have the knowledge, experience, or the balls to come on here (or any other forum) and have an intellectual debate.


* ... that *they* don't have ...


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## Enlightened Rogue

JayMillz said:


> Rick is probably just dyslexic with his spelling...and mentality in general. Evrey dAy is teh opposyte daye in Rick-wurld!


My 12 year old son is dyslexic....I wouldn`t give them that much credit.


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## edwardsatc

safedartfrogs.com website said:


> We continue to ship frogs 52 weeks a year nationwide as long as the delivery planes and trucks operate!
> Of course, we work with you to avoid delays, but our ONE HOP shipping cuts the in transit time and frog stress to less than half.
> *We can ship frogs in any weather, even single digit temps*, SAFELY and PROFESSIONALLY and our ARRIVE2THRIVE guarantee is rock solid!


Irresponsible and with no regard for the well being of the animals. The responsible and ethical thing to do is to ask your customer to wait until weather conditions are appropriate. A refund for dead frogs does nothing for the frogs.

Whatever tactics it takes to line your wallet, eh?


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## edwardsatc

wascher.com website said:


> We have more than twenty-five varieties, *4,000+ frogs, and over 2,000 fertile eggs and tadpoles*. We are offering a mixture of eight (8) of the most popular varieties for wholesale (and/or test marketing).


1. ... pants on fire

2. Can't seem to keep their story straight on these numbers can they? 1700, 2000, 3000, 4000? Which is it?

3. If you're going to fabricate a story, at least be consistent. 

4. I know a fellow research scientist who keeps around 4,000 reed frogs and 1,000's of tadpoles. His lab employs over a dozen undergrad students, grad students, and post-docs to care for them. Are we honestly supposed to believe that 4 kids are taking care of that many frogs before and after school and have time to develop/conduct "discovery phenotype research", new fly media recipes, etc,...? 

Link to Page:

USA Frog


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## edwardsatc

FrogZoo said:


> * I am an IP lawyer and gave it up for this* because we love the frogs and family side of this business more than anything.


You know the old saying "Don't quit your day job"? Yeah, you shouldn't have ...

Go back to the office life of a lawyer where you may actually know what you're talking about and where deception is expected and accepted.


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## Ed

I'm surprised that no one in this thread has pointed out that crossbreeding the different populations within a species can actually be severely deleterious to the frogs through out breeding depression.. It has been established in different populations of frogs that even relatively short distances between localities within a species can result in negative genetic allele combinations that are bad for the population. Given the short period of time in which they made the move and launched their "scientific" studies, they clearly have not done sufficient research to demonstrate that these crosses are not bad for the frogs since outbreeding depression can take from one to 4 or 5 generations before it shows up.. The problem is that once it shows up the affected population can be rendered non-viable resulting in extinction. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Enlightened Rogue

edwardsatc said:


> Irresponsible and with no regard for the well being of the animals. The responsible and ethical thing to do is to ask your customer to wait until weather conditions are appropriate. A refund for dead frogs does nothing for the frogs.
> 
> Whatever tactics it takes to line your wallet, eh?


Funny how they mentioned shipping in single digit temps when I posted about that
recently.


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## yerbamate

So...they're reading the posts on this thread as "john q public", but have had their accounts "auto-banned" to make it look like they don't have/want access to this alternative line of reasoning/critique? The problem with self-important individuals is that they often think that they are smarter than everyone else around them and that these people can't possible know how they operate. If this saga evolves much more, those little bonding froggies are gonna see the DFW as the cult of personality, they might even rise up in revolt like in Animal Farm.


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## oddlot

yerbamate said:


> So...they're reading the posts on this thread as "john q public", but have had their accounts "auto-banned" to make it look like they don't have/want access to this alternative line of reasoning/critique? The problem with self-important individuals is that they often think that they are smarter than everyone else around them and that these people can't possible know how they operate. If this saga evolves much more, those little bonding froggies are gonna see the DFW as the cult of personality, they might even rise up in revolt like in Animal Farm.



4 legs good 2 legs bad!!! Go frogs go!


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## Boondoggle

Ed said:


> I'm surprised that no one in this thread has pointed out that crossbreeding...


I know, right? It's just hard to dispute every inaccuracy. Some of them are starting to get by.


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## yerbamate

*Just sent this to DFW*

@ DB- If we don't try every avenue, we risk becoming more entrenched in the dysfunction. DFW isn't run on intellectual premise, it is hugely ego-driven, that much seems apparent. Must try all approaches!-

Island ecology. Well, here Dillon, let me appeal to your paradigm (not knockin' creation myths now!, every culture has and needs one!)....It's just that when the great floods come and go, they create islands that are separate from each other, which stay that way for a long time, even longer than a few thousand years at a time. AND, in ecology, an "island" isn't just surrounded by water, it could be a population in a valley cut off from all others by rivers/mountains/habitat fragmentation/etc. If Dillon plays God in the DFW laboratory with these creatures from separate islands, by mixing lineages, it is possible that their offspring and the offspring of said offspring will receive the evil curse of inferior genes and all of the misery and failure to thrive that may follow for ages. Do you want a dark era of endangered species husbandry history to be traced back to your good name should this in fact be just what you preach and practice in the name of cut-rate frog prices? There are many examples of wildlife conservation being served well by using wildlife as a commodity, but it can only be done by having that species' best interest at heart. And that interest is long-term survival. The brashness of your business success I"m sure works well in other fields, but not with wildlife survival. Please consider this endeavor to be one of a higher calling (consult your god)...for the sake of the species. If it is glory and $ you seek, let others prop you up with their expertise as you let them guide you to the heights you seek while enhancing the survival value of a species (which can easily translate into protection of habitat of that species as a bonus). Imagine, not a seething army of dendrobatiphiles at your throat, but rather legions of environmentally conscious cyber-space followers who choose instead to respect your practices instead of despising them. Think of the marketing potential!!!!! For example: You could use your resources to understand outbreeding versus inbreeding (remember, science doesn't care what a person "wants" to believe, no matter who they are), learn what is actually good for dart frogs and then fund a patch of protected habitat in-country and use that experience to advertise a revamped and genetically-sound business practice. You won't be spending energy fighting off the increasing masses who will dog you at every turn because of your current wrong-headed approach. It would be WIN-WIN- WIN for DFW, for darts, and for the DF community. Embrace change for the good of all!


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## edwardsatc

New category over at DFW:

*"Hobby Frogs (pure morphs)"
*
Which makes me think we'll soon be seeing the "not so pure morphs".


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## BrainBug

Wow, now the link Dillon gives in the first post of this thread just goes straight to a bunch of his dad's religious ramblings. This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.


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## Charlie Q

I think, that one of the big reasons we haven't been able to talk them out of mixing morphs, or anything for that matter, is because they were already down the path of hybridizing before they opened the store. They think that they have sunk too much into this venture to abandon ship now. They have slowly been more and more open and direct with regards to the hybrid issue. at first it was just hints and we were guessing. then they started posting somethings more clearly. now it seems like they are about set their bastard frog program to full launch.

i imagine that that would bring the first hybrids to some amount of maturity so that they can give customers SOME idea of what their frogs will look like. this would mean that the breeding will have taken place *months* before the first froglets are posted for sale.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

BrainBug said:


> Wow, now the link Dillon gives in the first post of this thread just goes straight to a bunch of his dad's religious ramblings. This just keeps getting weirder and weirder.


How can you be a fundamentalist Christian and them turn around and play God by creating new designer morphs. Seems a bit hypocritical.


----------



## rigel10

The number of visitors and the post of this thread, the meaning of most of the interventions is a strong message - even from the ethical point of view - that these forms of business should stay out of the hobby. I am comforted by the fact that many junior members (some of whom are novices, I think), who read this thread, have a full awareness of what must be done and what should not be done in this hobby. It is my personal opinion.


----------



## LoganR

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> How can you be a fundamentalist Christian and them turn around and play God by creating new designer morphs. Seems a bit hypocritical.


It depends on how you interpret "dominion" in Genesis 1:26. Having been raised in a fundamentalist background, I know it has a wide range of interpretations ranging from humans being tasked with overseeing the welfare of all life on earth to the opposite extreme of believing that everything on earth is merely here for our benefit. 

So while I find the potential creation of these frog designer morphs anathema and unnatural, I wouldn't call them hypocritical, as it may fall well within their moral boundaries. Let's face it, humans have been tinkering with genetics of plants and animals since the beginnings of our understanding of agriculture. That said, it is clearly not what the overwhelming majority of the dart frog hobby, myself included, want to see happen with dart frogs. Why mess with the amazing diversity that is already within our grasp?


----------



## Groundhog

Wow...

For reasons beyond my comprehension, I have read most of this thread. Still a bit shell-shocked, here are some comments/questions:

1) So we've established that these guys are clowns (sorry MOD), but at this point, there is a lot of redundancy. While there have been some good critiques (Rusty, Dendro Dave, etc.), I feel the best one is Boondoggle's, post #1028 1/1/14; I suggest everyone here re-read it. 

2) One comment about tameness: This is, of course, a sham. I do not keep PDFs but I do know that they are pets to be observed (like finches, small day geckos, most tropical fish, etc.). However, I do not think the blanket "they're not pets" critique applies to all herps (most certainly, but not all).

3) *But here is the real problem:* The right of people to do what they will with their persons/property. There are several areas of the herp hobby--and life--where I am quite critical: I am dismayed by the need to albinize every %$#@* snake species, or the creation of inter-generic hybrids. I think keeping a "venomoid" snake is cruel. Hell, while we're at it, I disapprove of scaleless bearded dragons, pugs, hairless cats, roosters with 30' tails, goldfish with upward-facing eyes. Lemme go one step further, and state with all due civility that any parent who home-schools cause they don't want their kid(s) learning evolution and/or climate change is a bozack. (And do NOT get me started on parents who do not vaccinate...) 

But, what, exactly, are you or I gonna do about it?!? We have already registered our moral outrage; this is not going to stop these fools. Only the marketplace can do that. What we can do is post a hobby-wide warning, which--if stated carefully--can be protected free speech. But for this, we may need the assistance and support of some of the established reputable breeders.

4) I try to think of all dispute/contestation as a chess match, meaning, we must anticipate the other guy's argument. The creators of "fantasy" frogs, tremper leopard geckos, the various beardie morphs, glofish, etc. will argue that these animals are bred as pets, never to encounter wild populations. Dillon will probably believe the same thing (see Logan, above). This leads to two related questions that merit consideration and response:

a) If a person says these are frogs to be kept by private people, as long as they are well kept, what business is it of mine/yours?
b) Is one the goals of the PDF hobby to have stock for potential re-introduction? Bear in mind--and it is beyond the scope of this thread--all captive organisms have been the result of selection. _OR_, is it simply that PDF keepers want to appreciate these animals as nature made them, with as little artificial selection as possible? (not that there is anything wrong with that 

Please realize I am only brain-storming here, but I'd like to hear how some you big brains would handle these. 

Gotta go feed my creme brulee (tm) collared lizards (Geezus... Well, at least I'm consistent--there are nice plants I refuse to keep, simply because their names are too stupid--e.g., _Begonia_ 'Little Brother Montgomery.' I am dead serious about this...)

Thanks in advance.


----------



## edwardsatc

Charlie Q said:


> I think, that one of the big reasons we haven't been able to talk them out of mixing morphs, or anything for that matter, is because they were already down the path of hybridizing before they opened the store. They think that they have sunk too much into this venture to abandon ship now. They have slowly been more and more open and direct with regards to the hybrid issue. at first it was just hints and we were guessing. then they started posting somethings more clearly. now it seems like they are about set their bastard frog program to full launch.
> 
> i imagine that that would bring the first hybrids to some amount of maturity so that they can give customers SOME idea of what their frogs will look like. this would mean that the breeding will have taken place *months* before the first froglets are posted for sale.


I totally agree here. everything they have done and said points to the notion that they have already produced mixed morph frogs and are trying to justify the practice so that they can unload them.

- Why else would they go to such great lengths to push this philosophy? 

- If all they wanted to do is sell pure locale frogs under goofy names and trademarks, then why alienate the entire community of hobbyists? 

- They've stated that they have already conducted "phenotype" research which has included mixing morphs which must have resulted in least some bastardized frogs.

- Remember one of their earlier business names ... _ART_frogwarehouse?

In my mind, the only conclusion can be that they already have an inventory of mixed morph frogs and are desperately seeking to find a way to unload them.


----------



## frogparty

like through Underground reptiles and other animal flippers/wholesalers. 

coincidence that there are frogs of dubious origins popping up as this business falters and needs to unload inventory? couldnt be


----------



## edwardsatc

It appears that their newest tactic is to convince people that all auratus, tinctorious, and leucomelas are already the product of intrabreeding (mixing morphs. See Q2, 4-6 Month Old, SAFE dart frogs

or view the attachment below.


----------



## yerbamate

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> How can you be a fundamentalist Christian and them turn around and play God by creating new designer morphs. Seems a bit hypocritical.


I think that in his mind it is completely non-hypocritical, unfortunately. Remember, part of that mindset is that God made everything and put it here recently as a gift for their use in whatever way they see fit. As such, darts aren't present-day evolutionary terminus's, they are "things" to be manipulated just like science facts, domain ownership, people's minds, legal interpretation, etc.


----------



## Boondoggle

edwardsatc said:


> It appears that their newest tactic is to convince people that all auratus, tinctorious, and leucomelas are already the product of intrabreeding (mixing morphs. See Q2, 4-6 Month Old, SAFE dart frogs
> 
> or view the attachment below.


Oh my God. Seriously, I'm going to leave this alone soon, I promise. 

His argument is that leucs with spots, and luecs with bands are different from another so they must be the product of selective breeding, and since there are nominant leucs with both spots and bands, that is proof that there is intrabreeding going on.

That's a real "chicken and egg" situation you got going on there.

Why do geneticists spend so much time in school when genetics are this cut and dry?


----------



## edwardsatc

Boondoggle said:


> Oh my God. Seriously, I'm going to leave this alone soon, I promise.
> 
> His argument is that leucs with spots, and luecs with bands are different from another so they must be the product of selective breeding, and since there are nominant leucs with both spots and bands, that is proof that there is intrabreeding going on.
> 
> That's a real "chicken and egg" situation you got going on there.
> 
> Why do geneticists spend so much time in school when genetics are this cut and dry?


Rational and critical thinking skills are not exactly their strong suit.

Maybe they should breed Okapi. One can only wonder how they would explain it's origins ...  It looks like a giraffe, and a deer, and a zebra. Surely they had a manage a trois !!!


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> It appears that their newest tactic is to convince people that all auratus, tinctorious, and leucomelas are already the product of intrabreeding (mixing morphs. See Q2, 4-6 Month Old, SAFE dart frogs
> 
> or view the attachment below.


Well I guess they are still reading the forums since they changed INTER to INTRA after my posts. I like how they used INTRAbred to make it sound like all the Auratus morphs are being bred together by the average hobbyists or that it is at least ok to do if you want to. Of course the truth is anyone who did this would be ostracized from the community or at least get a rude awakening. So nice of them to set their customers up to immediately piss off the entire hobby they are entering.* I would love them to hear how they justify that as being ethical and/or moral?*


Do they not know banded luecs were imports that came in a few years ago, and not line bred by hobbyists? 

They are prone to exaggeration/misinformation. So what if at some point someone line bread some tincs, luecs, or auratus... that does not mean all the different morphs are the result of this, or that we should just throw the baby out with the bath water. 

I can't believe how willing they are to exaggerate and willfully mislead people... Or themselves. Their capacity for self delusion and ability to rationalize anything to themselves seems to suggest a pathology at this point. These are the kinds of people who when allowed to have to much power start trouble, you know things like holocausts 

Anyways all this is moot because...
They said themselves *"we will not mix any species or variety" (and made the distinction themselves). * Beyond species, "variety" must refer to morphs and/or locales, so at this point if they do mix any morphs/locales, they are clearly going back on their word and demonstrating that they are not to be trusted. 

_(I read the original quote off one of their web pages, but it's hard to wade through all that crap to find it again. I wouldn't be surprised if it was deleted, but It was there at one point.)_


*They said they wouldn't do it, now lets see if they stick to their word.* *SIMPLE AS THAT.* (I'm not holding my breath )


----------



## edwardsatc

Dendro Dave said:


> Well I guess they are still reading the forums since they changed INTER to INTRA after my posts.


They still get it wrong here:

Breeding

and, strangely, both right and wrong here:

Expert Understanding


----------



## Ed

I haven't seen them posting on classified ads on another site for the last few days. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> I haven't seen them posting on classified ads on another site for the last few days.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I've noticed the same thing. What to make of that? I don't know. I think they may be communicating directly with wholesale contacts. There are some ads appearing on Kingsnake advertising frogs that were probably obtained from safedartfrogs.com. I've heard from several sources that one advertisement is indeed frogs sourced from safedartfrogs.com.


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> I've noticed the same thing. What to make of that? I don't know. I think they may be communicating directly with wholesale contacts. There are some ads appearing on Kingsnake advertising frogs that were probably obtained from safedartfrogs.com. I've heard from several sources that one advertisement is indeed frogs sourced from safedartfrogs.com.


I had heard the same thing... 

Ed


----------



## Detrick105

It seem's like the best thing to do is to not buy ANY of their animals, and do your RESEARCH! Make a point of knowing who and where your animals come from! I cannot condone what they are doing! Makes me sick to think that someone is mixing and wholesaling the mixed mutts and not labeling them as so!!! So be wary of where you get your animals and do some background checks, research! 

Steve


----------



## carola1155

I'm pretty sure we've already seen some members coming here with some of their frogs... Some people just don't care. A cheap frog is a cheap frog. It's frustrating.


----------



## bsr8129

People are going to buy thier frogs no matter how much people on this forum hate them it's a fact of life. I know several people in socali that have bought thier frogs. Not much we can do about it.


----------



## Ghost vivs

This may piss some folks off but what the hell... 


*Dartfrog*

*Breeder*

*Union*

 

Casper


----------



## edwardsatc

bsr8129 said:


> People are going to buy thier frogs no matter how much people on this forum hate them it's a fact of life. I know several people in socali that have bought thier frogs. Not much we can do about it.


Some will. But many won't. So yes, there IS something we can and have done about it!

I don't see any of these buyers jumping to DFW's defense. Hmmm, I wonder why that is?


----------



## Dendro Dave

bsr8129 said:


> People are going to buy thier frogs no matter how much people on this forum hate them it's a fact of life. I know several people in socali that have bought thier frogs. Not much we can do about it.


What we can do is make it much much harder for them to possibly make a living at this. On a hobby level it would be nearly impossible to stop frogs trickling in from them, but on a hobby level they pose only a minor threat. On a commercial level they pose a huge threat to the hobby, but are also more vulnerable to us. It isn't easy to make a living in this hobby for people with good reps, even harder for people who are public enemy #1... That's why we keep at this. 

If people know of wholesalers they've done business with, I encourage you to to make those business names public (even if it is behind the scenes) and contact those wholesalers to inform them that we want nothing to do with these people or anyone buying their frogs.

These people and any business that deals with them need to be radioactive/persona non grata in the eyes of the community.


----------



## edwardsatc

I love this little snippet from their website:



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> We do not get caught up into the Hatfield and McCoy like US based dispute over who’s who, and the rules of an American hobby purist. In fact, that’s what makes this so fun. We can all agree to disagree with civility, character, and professionalism, as we do now. Moreover, in this global age and the fact we as a people on the same plant should come to expect diversity, we are glad we all embrace the opinions, leadership, and pursuits of others, as different.


Hatfields and McCoys ... lol ... The Hatfields (10,000+ hobbyists) vs. the McCoys (1 ignoramous who goes by the name Rick).

I love it when they post shit like this because the newbs out there have no idea what they are referring to, which turns them to the web to seek answers. I'd guess one of those newbs is reading this thread right now ... Thanks Rick


----------



## Mantella71

"Moreover, in this global age and *the fact we as a people on the same plant *should come to expect diversity, we are glad we all embrace the opinions, leadership, and pursuits of others, as different."

Wow, I never knew we were all on the same plant. Wait, maybe it's the new legalized marijuana, sweet I don't think it's a global age, perhaps a stone age (cheap joke but I couldn't resist, better to be a smart -ass than dumb-ass)


----------



## JayMillz

edwardsatc said:


> I love this little snippet from their website:
> 
> 
> 
> Hatfields and McCoys ... lol ... The Hatfields (10,000+ hobbyists) vs. the McCoys (1 ignoramous who goes by the name Rick).
> 
> I love it when they post shit like this because the newbs out there have no idea what they are referring to, which turns them to the web to seek answers. I'd guess one of those newbs is reading this thread right now ... Thanks Rick


This part..."*We can all agree to disagree with civility, character, and professionalism, as we do now*"...how is blocking yourself from your own customers/fellow hobbyists on this board, not responding to any questions, and sticking your head in the dirt to remain completely oblivious to everyone around you who is only trying to help, at all civil & professional? Your character is complete crap. Stop typing up lies for your potential future customers that you plan on taking total advantage of.


----------



## edwardsatc

JayMillz said:


> This part..."*We can all agree to disagree with civility, character, and professionalism, as we do now*"...how is blocking yourself from your own customers/fellow hobbyists on this board, not responding to any questions, and sticking your head in the dirt to remain completely oblivious to everyone around you who is only trying to help, at all civil & professional? Your character is complete crap. Stop typing up lies for your potential future customers that you plan on taking total advantage of.


While I agree with you. I would also say that some of us here (myself included) haven't always been civil and professional about it either. But, eh, I'm okay with that.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Mantella71 said:


> " we as a people on the same plant


Now now, you need to catch up I found that beauty a few pages back, and how come I didn`t get 3 "likes'' from it?
I`m telling Rick.


----------



## edwardsatc

They are now offering a "Signature Line" of frogs


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> I love this little snippet from their website:
> 
> 
> 
> Hatfields and McCoys ... lol ... The Hatfields (10,000+ hobbyists) vs. the McCoys (1 ignoramous who goes by the name Rick).
> 
> I love it when they post shit like this because the newbs out there have no idea what they are referring to, which turns them to the web to seek answers. I'd guess one of those newbs is reading this thread right now ... Thanks Rick





JayMillz said:


> This part..."*We can all agree to disagree with civility, character, and professionalism, as we do now*"...how is blocking yourself from your own customers/fellow hobbyists on this board, not responding to any questions, and sticking your head in the dirt to remain completely oblivious to everyone around you who is only trying to help, at all civil & professional? Your character is complete crap. Stop typing up lies for your potential future customers that you plan on taking total advantage of.


More marketing spin... I don't know how they don't get so dizzy they end up falling down, knocking the pc and all the tad containers full of hybrid frogs over. 

They have still yet to address the moral/ethical issue of how they justify putting every one of their customers at odds with the entire hobby community, thus handicapping them from the start in their new hobby. 

If they truly want to be upfront and honest with their customers they need a disclaimer on the site that says something like...

"*WARNING, we are hated by the majority of the community because of our ignorance, greed, lack of respect and perpetuating misinformation/pseudoscience. If you deal with us or any of our frogs and/or buy into our BS you will have a lot of explaining to do and will be on Santa's naughty list till you have proven you are not greedy disrespectful wackjob like us... Enjoy your new frogs and the hobby we took advantage of and now want no part of! ...And remember our motto... "Screw you!... Screw everyone! Money money money!" *

Seriously DFW, how do you justify starting off your customers so poorly in the hobby and in eyes of the community? Oh wait I think I know... You just forgo any responsibility or accountability  It's your god given calling to raise and sell cheap frogs and who gives a flying flip what happens to your customers or their frogs once you have their money right? Well we are the ones that will have to deal with all these shady frogs you create and misinformed people take advantage of, so where's our money? ...Seriously you should pay us for doing half your job for you when these poor people start showing up and we have to re-educate them and inform them no one wants their frogs because we don't trust the source.


----------



## frogparty

I really hope these guys are hemorraging money by now. 

Cross morph and hybrid frogs look like crap anyway


----------



## Urban Jungle

I agree... WAY TO POLLUTE THE HOBBY! Like nobody ever thought of that before! Why don't you guys come up with your own signature forum! I'm guessing the 5.0 cumulative HIGHSCHOOL gpa didn't include an ethics class!


----------



## Boondoggle

edwardsatc said:


> They are now offering a "Signature Line" of frogs


So what the hell is that? Cross-breeds, Line-breeds, or just hand picked?


----------



## Defica

My personal opinion:

When 2/3 of your website is used to defend your stance on crossbreeding, you are doing it wrong. It looks less like a storefront and more like a research paper.

Also, you missed a (TM) somewhere. I'll let you find it.


----------



## edwardsatc

Defica said:


> When 2/3 of your website is used to defend your stance on crossbreeding, you are doing it wrong. It looks less like a storefront and more like a research paper.


A really BAD research paper. Let's just call it a "paper" or "opinion piece" or "editorial" since, obviously, no research went into it at all.


----------



## edwardsatc

safedartfrogs.comwebsite said:


> *We are pleased to announce the registration of our SAFE trademark on the Prinicpal Register of the United States Patent and Trademark Office! The trademark and our ownership data will be recorded with Department of Homeland Security, bureau of U.S. Customs & Border Protection (CBP), to assist CPB in its efforts to prevent the importation of goods that infringe registered trademarks. *


Uh, yeah, as if anyone really wants to be associated with that trademark ... 

Department of Homeland Security, lol.


----------



## mjahnke

Rick must work for Samsung.

Samsung Makes Android SAFE(tm) for Enterprises, Offers Trade-In Program to Upgrade to the Galaxy S III


----------



## edwardsatc

The comic relief is endless:



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> Because frogs breathe through their skin, wild jungle frogs that ate poisoned bugs get rid of the plant toxins by secreting it though their skin, much like a runny nose for us.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Where the hell did they get that idea? I see no truth what so ever in their statement.


----------



## edwardsatc

There is some truth there:
1) Frogs can exchange gases (such as O2 and CO2) through their skin.
2) Frogs do secrete toxins through their skin or glands within/beneath the skin.

What I find funny is the way they try to tie it all together:

-The implication that secretion of toxins is because they have the ability to exchange gases through their skin. Totally nonsensical ... and funny!

-They don't seem to understand the difference between _secretion_ and _excretion_ in terms of detoxification.

-And then there's the runny nose part ...


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> A really BAD research paper. Let's just call it a "paper" or "opinion piece" or "editorial" since, obviously, no research went into it at all.


Actually it reads more as an uneducated ramble, it isn't even a stream of conscious thought.... Calling it a paper or even an opinion piece is giving more credit than is due as it implies that some real knowledge has been imparted... 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

So I see in today's Kingsnake Ad they list several Auratus under locality or common morph names, these same frogs and names are used under their Classic category as well, with other species also listed. In the Signature series there are the same frogs but with their made up names....so what designates a classic frog from a signature frog? Are they taking baby steps into the main stream or has it been this way for a while?


----------



## Scott

It's selling to people in the hobby this time (commonly referred to names), and selling to people new to the hobby with the made up names.

s


----------



## Dane

Scott said:


> It's selling to people in the hobby this time (commonly referred to names), and selling to people new to the hobby with the made up names.
> 
> s


Exactly. We already know the level of their scruples. They will call the frogs whatever you want, as long as you buy them.


----------



## Judy S

Wonder whether there will be vendors at the upcoming Baltimore Repticon trying to sell the "designer frogs."


----------



## Scott

I'm pretty sure that anyone who buys their frogs wholesale will not be mentioning the source of the frogs.

Why associate yourself with these folks, just take their cheap frogs?

s


Judy S said:


> Wonder whether there will be vendors at the upcoming Baltimore Repticon trying to sell the "designer frogs."


----------



## JJuchems

Someone will be uninformed and sell using "their stupid" names. It's a catch 22. Inform the seller and they drop "their stupid" names and keep buying cheap frogs. Let them use the "stupid names" and we all know who is supplying them but uniformed new hobbyist but poor quality frogs.


----------



## joshbaker14t

I think we are already seeing an influx of new members with unknown frogs likely stemming from dfw...

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## Judy S

I asked my question in an effort to be aware, and to observe...even though I'm a greenhorn...what vendors might be passing these frogs on...what would someone ask to expect an honest answer at these "sponsored" events. And how in the world would a buyer know enough to believe any answer?


----------



## edwardsatc

joshbaker14t said:


> I think we are already seeing an influx of new members with unknown frogs likely stemming from dfw...


Yep, and there are at least two vendors selling their frogs on Kingsnake.

This thread would probably be more effective if the name of the thread could be changed to reflect the current name of their business or website. Many newbs and folks that have not followed this saga from the beginning probably have no idea that US Dart Frogs (safedartfrogs.com) is the same entity as Dart Frog Warehouse.


----------



## Aldross

Holy crap that was a long read.
Makes me glad I met Patrick and Matt at a reptile show in STL and I was able to get a good line. I'm sure there are many people like me that are making the step from reptile keeping to PDF. With reptiles, morphs are all over and many are something that are sought after. If you were to tell a reptile keeper you have these awesome PDF morphs with a fancy name and a low price tag to go with it you can really see where they can get these big sale numbers. Only over the past month have I learned the importance of not mixing and keeping lines pure. I hope more people stumble onto this thread. Its an eye opener.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Aldross said:


> .
> I hope more people stumble onto this thread. Its an eye opener.


From your mouth to God`s ears my friend. Yea, that's right Rick.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Judy S said:


> I asked my question in an effort to be aware, and to observe...even though I'm a greenhorn...what vendors might be passing these frogs on...what would someone ask to expect an honest answer at these "sponsored" events. And how in the world would a buyer know enough to believe any answer?


All good questions for sure Judy. I really think all we can do at this point
is keep this thread going ( a big thanks to Donn) and just continue to buy 
our frogs from people we know and trust.
For me personaly, all the dart frogs I ever owned came from Black Jungle.
I would never purchase a frog anyone I don`t know, not these days anyway.


----------



## carola1155

Well... At least their "innovations" page is finally accurate...










....empty....



Also, first time on their site in a while. It's entertaining that they are now actually advertising their "signature" frogs as line-bred.


----------



## Dane

I always thought the oddball cartoon character that they use as their mascot looked familiar, then I remembered the McDonald's ad campaign from the 90's featuring the voice of Ray Charles:

















Separated at birth?


----------



## carola1155

One other thing I noticed...

They are actively advertising the sale of 1.2 trios of tinctorius morphs. I don't think any other frog vendor I've ever seen would encourage this. Sure, it can and has been pulled off... but the chances of problems are *far* greater than the chances for success. 

Unsuspecting people keep finding a drowned frog so they keep buying more of them... sounds like that could fit in with one of their genius business plans to me.


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> Well... At least their "innovations" page is finally accurate...
> 
> ....empty....



As are their "helps" and "breeding" pages which is appropriate since they shouldn't be breeding and they are of no help to the hobby ...


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

As fat as innovations, how about alienating the hobby and spreading misinformation? DFC invented it, DFW perfected it.


----------



## nish07

The strange thing is (and if Ed doesn't respond here I'm gonna email him because I'd like to hear what he or anyone else who's been in the hobby for 10+ years), I look at the chameleon sellers. I always wanted a nice ambilobe panther chameleon. They have at least 1 large seller that crosses morphs. They end up looking fairly fantastic but I'm surprised people aren't as vocal against it. Maybe they are?

In the meantime I can see why people would want to keep frogs site specific. There are many of them and the froggers seem to be a passionate group. The way they are in nature is fantastic enough IMO.

Has "Dartfrog Warehouse" ever publicly said or shown any crossbreed morphs that they plan to sell?

-Nish


----------



## Dendro Dave

nish07 said:


> The strange thing is (and if Ed doesn't respond here I'm gonna email him because I'd like to hear what he or anyone else who's been in the hobby for 10+ years), I look at the chameleon sellers. I always wanted a nice ambilobe panther chameleon. They have at least 1 large seller that crosses morphs. They end up looking fairly fantastic but I'm surprised people aren't as vocal against it. Maybe they are?
> 
> In the meantime I can see why people would want to keep frogs site specific. There are many of them and the froggers seem to be a passionate group. The way they are in nature is fantastic enough IMO.
> 
> Has "Dartfrog Warehouse" ever publicly said or shown any crossbreed morphs that they plan to sell?
> 
> -Nish


I think Ed made a couple replies a few pages back. As for our hobby vs other hobbies, I think the roots of this started years back with the founders and the kinda people this hobby attracts which kinda set the standard operating procedures and created the basis for the culture we now have in the hobby. It may be in part that vivariums making looks more involved then it is (though you can make it very involved if you want). I know people that know about my hobby seem to still find it hard to believe that they are easier to maintain then an aquarium and not all that hard to build and while most people think they are really cool they tend to automatically assume it is beyond their own capability, where as people who don't are probably more likely to jump in feet first and take things really seriously.

Then there is the fact that these animals are the most colorful herps/amphibs and probably only insects, birds, and fish (and other aquatic animals) have more species that display as many bright colors, so I think there is perceived to be less need to meet someones personal desires for a red frog with poka dots and blue legs... We don't have to create them, they already exist. Then the fact that dart frogs are so synonymous with the rainforest and it's decline also probably helps to further the mentality that "this stuff needs to be preserved as it is". 

Might be we have a bit more "unity" also and the order in which people get involved may come into play. Like sure some of us cross over into aquariums and other herps, or other animals but it seems like most people end up here rather then start here, so by the time they get here maybe they take it all a bit more seriously That goes for the commercial people also... Most commercial dart froggers are dart froggers first and into other stuff second, and we've seen that when hybrids appear and are sold or mixing encouraged it is often a reptile business guy who has begun dabbling in darts and when drama has happened it is often when reptile guys try to do darts like they do reptiles


----------



## DemonicalEnvy

Not trying to start any fight or what ever you want to call it but i just read an ad from a very big person in the PDF community put in their AD that PDFs are "always completely non toxic" just saying. So i guess what i'm getting at is it would be how you per sieve non toxic which would i guess also mean you did your homework on PDFs? Like i said not trying to bash anyone especially since i my self have bought animals from them and know the quality and care from them just putting this out there cause i know this was one of the main things being said.


----------



## markpulawski

Not toxic would imply they do not retain the toxins these frogs produce in the wild, SAFE implies you can pop them in your mouth and never would there be any harm....however any one who keeps frogs in a moist warm bacteria laden tank knows that would not be a smart thing to do.


----------



## DemonicalEnvy

You understand that I understand that 98-99% of the people here understand that. The debate though was DFW was saying they 100% non toxic harmless blah blah and im just saying that they were being bashed for saying this and yet a very reputable person in the PDF community puts the same thing in their ADs without repercussion. SAFE and also saying harmless non toxic are different and i know we can see the difference plus they are using SAFE in a really twisted.


----------



## nish07

DemonicalEnvy said:


> You understand that I understand that 98-99% of the people here understand that. The debate though was DFW was saying they 100% non toxic harmless blah blah and im just saying that they were being bashed for saying this and yet a very reputable person in the PDF community puts the same thing in their ADs without repercussion. SAFE and also saying harmless non toxic are different and i know we can see the difference plus they are using SAFE in a really twisted.


They are making a bunch of stuff up to try and sell darts like a new toy. They're trying to sell to people who have never looked into them or bought them before. They're marketing like a company to sell for profit not as much like someone who cares about the truth and research behind their habitat, location, life cycle etc.

It's like branding cheese 'real' cheese when all cheese is real (or what 'isn't' real cheese?). It's a marketing technique. I honestly think it'd work for a lot of people who would just go into a pet store see a dart frog and say hey I want one. But I don't think anyone who cares or does any research or intends to be in the hobby for a long term will consider these frogs.

I still don't know if they're breeding/flipping or actually cross breeding frogs. Their whole website is like a silly advertisement but the frogs may be 'ok'. Most people here wouldn't want to promote that type of marketing.

-Nish


----------



## carola1155

The SAFE/toxic stuff is all just stupid. Thats the problem we have with it. It is a stupid marketing gimmick.

The real problem is with their other practices...

I'm sure they are feeding and giving proper supplements and care to their frogs and that is not the problem... the problem is that they are going to create more confusion in this hobby by making these stupid names up and having a "signature" and "classic" line of frogs.

The signature frogs are just being line-bred for specific traits. Simple as that. We already have a problem in the hobby with genetic diversity due to inbreeding, now we have them intentionally causing more damage. 

What is going to happen years down the road when we get low fecundity due to poor genetics? Wild-caught demand is going to go up. That is NOT something we need.

You buying from them supports their business and supports there practices whether you buy the "signature" line or not.


----------



## DemonicalEnvy

ok but no one is focusing on what i am bring up or answering my question you keep jumping around to things im not even talking about. What i am trying to get an answer for is why one person can say non toxic and it be bad and then another person say it and be fine especially someone who has been in the PDF community for some time now? Also the person i am talking about has an AD right now on kingsnake with this being said and i am not talking about DFW.


----------



## carola1155

DemonicalEnvy said:


> ok but no one is focusing on what i am bring up or answering my question you keep jumping around to things im not even talking about. What i am trying to get an answer for is why one person can say non toxic and it be bad and then another person say it and be fine especially someone who has been in the PDF community for some time now? Also the person i am talking about has an AD right now on kingsnake with this being said and i am not talking about DFW.





markpulawski said:


> Not toxic would imply they do not retain the toxins these frogs produce in the wild, SAFE implies you can pop them in your mouth and never would there be any harm....however any one who keeps frogs in a moist warm bacteria laden tank knows that would not be a smart thing to do.


Mark already gave you a pretty spot-on answer...


----------



## carola1155

> And of course their incredible toxins in the wild makes them a great conversation starter. Keep in mind that as with all dart frogs, captive bred specimens are always completely non toxic!


Notice that doesn't say "completely harmless" and all that other stuff DFW has plastered all over its site. There is no duping anyone in that vendor's ad. There is no rambling about runny noses. He is saying they do not posses the toxins from the wild.


----------



## FroggyKnight

I do agree with you Tom, but can also hear where demonical is coming from. Both people are pushing the truth, but DFW is taking the gimick to the next level. A level that is unacceptable.

I would also like for you guys to keep in mind that _phyllobates_ species still can synthesize certain alkoloid toxins in captivity, just not the highly dangerous ones that gave these frogs their name. So technically, a person with a severe allergy to the toxin could be affected in a unSAFE way ().

John


----------



## Boondoggle

DemonicalEnvy said:


> ok but no one is focusing on what i am bring up or answering my question you keep jumping around to things im not even talking about. What i am trying to get an answer for is why one person can say non toxic and it be bad and then another person say it and be fine especially someone who has been in the PDF community for some time now? Also the person i am talking about has an AD right now on kingsnake with this being said and i am not talking about DFW.


There is nothing wrong with pointing out that darts removed from the wild lose their toxicity. That's called information.

There is something wrong with boasting that you have a trademarked system for making captive bred frogs "SAFE™", and by extension implying that those who can't legally use you trademarked system are risking passing on unsafe frogs. That's called misinformation.

Imagine you owned a store that sold pencils and someone opened up a pencil kiosk right in front of your store with a banner that said "Finally, pencils that can't give you cancer!" While the statement is true, It's also underhanded and designed to dupe the uninformed.

Make more sense?


----------



## Boondoggle

FroggyKnight said:


> I would also like for you guys to keep in mind that _phyllobates_ species still can synthesize certain alkoloid toxins in captivity, just not the highly dangerous ones that gave these frogs their name. So technically, a person with a severe allergy to the toxin could be affected in a unSAFE way ().
> 
> John


Well I'm sure that's not possible because DFW tests each frog for unsafeness...somehow.


----------



## frogparty

FroggyKnight said:


> I do agree with you Tom, but can also hear where demonical is coming from. Both people are pushing the truth, but DFW is taking the gimick to the next level. A level that is unacceptable.
> 
> I would also like for you guys to keep in mind that _phyllobates_ species still can synthesize certain alkoloid toxins in captivity, just not the highly dangerous ones that gave these frogs their name. So technically, a person with a severe allergy to the toxin could be affected in a unSAFE way ().
> 
> John


I react, albeit mildly, to my leucomelas skin secretions


----------



## oldlady25715

I think Safedartfrogs biggest misinformation is that they claim to be producing superior frogs by breeding for specific traits, yet they are line breeding and/or hybridizing to create inferior frogs that are sold to newbies. If your going to sell frogs for $10-$20 each why make all the fuss with this and just sell normal heathy morphs in an honest fashion? 

Imagine all the hours or money Rick and Dillon have spent on their website, not to mention all the time those kids must put in to raising all the frogs--they've gotta be getting burnt out by now and are working for cents per hour.


----------



## mho

oldlady25715 said:


> Imagine all the hours or money Rick and Dillon have spent on their website, not to mention all the time those kids must put in to raising all the frogs--they've gotta be getting burnt out by now and are working for cents per hour.


I wonder if U.S. Dept. of Labor knows about these violations of the Fair Labor Standards Act


----------



## Charlie Q

family businesses, i believe, have substantial exemptions to these laws.


----------



## Ed

FroggyKnight said:


> I would also like for you guys to keep in mind that _phyllobates_ species still can synthesize certain alkoloid toxins in captivity, just not the highly dangerous ones that gave these frogs their name.


John, 

Do you have a reference for this? I couldn't find it anywhere. 

There is strong evidence that they produce other toxic peptides in captivity.. including the semi-famous example of a frogger treating an upset terribilis and it secreting a white ooze and he touched his tongue to some of it on his finger. See this thread back in 2006 http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...lis-seller-being-honest-toxicity-level-3.html 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## FroggyKnight

Whoops! The word alkaloid was not supposed to be there. Thanks for pointing that out, Ed

John


----------



## Charlie Q

Ok, who the heck is Vic Ruutan? and why are they putting his stupid head all over their products? and they fixed their "breeding" link.


----------



## JJuchems

"Gold Medal" TM seriously? Who gave them the gold medal and really trademark Gold Medal...real original. The UTTER NONSENSE of these practices have just gotten dumber and dumber. I have read business ideas from 10 year olds that are more professional.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

What is the difference between an A1 Breeder and SAFE pet dart frogs, assuming they are the same age, species, and variety?

Usually the Pet Stock will show a visible variance from a truly "classical" appearance as determined by species and variety, as well as traits specific to gender. In the alternative, sometimes a Pet frog is slower to mature towards breeding, or shows no mating interest according to a maturity timeline we have predetermined. 

The Pet (below left) is the same age as the A1 Breeder (below right), but the pet frog is not readily sexable (male?). The sex of each breeding A1 (discussed more thoroughly below) has been determined. Each has reached sexual maturity, or is soon approaching (varies by species), and is ready for breeding with a chosen a mate in due course. Still, in many instances our SAFE pet stock exhibits most, or even all, of the same characteristics as a SAFE breeder frog, yet our keen eye after looking at literally thousands of frogs and compared to the best breeders we have tells us which have the best chance to be the prolific breeder frogs we hope for, for us, and for you! 
http://safedartfrogs.com/a1-frogs.aspx


The above is a direct quote from their website. The pictures they are referring to are photos of 2 P. vittatus. I have SERIOUS questions and doubts about the information they are trying to provide. 
1. "Usually the pet stock shows a visual variance from a truly "classical" appearance" 

Ok we all know that dart frogs are subject to natural variability in coloration and patterns even within frogs from the same clutch. I originally sold the Waschers some vittatus back in Nov. 2012 and of course there was the natural variability within those frogs. All those frogs they bought were related, perhaps even clutch mates. So their limited gene pool is the basis for "pet" quality or "breeder" quality frogs? Who are they trying to fool? Oh that's right, they're trying to fool noobs. 

2. "In the alternative, sometimes a Pet frog is slower to mature towards breeding, or shows no mating interest according to a maturity timeline we have predetermined."

So now a "pet" or "breeder" is determined by the age at which it matures, not variability of color and pattern? Way to go Waschers, keep talking out of your rectum.

3. "The Pet (below left) is the same age as the A1 Breeder (below right), but the pet frog is not readily sexable (male?). The sex of each breeding A1 (discussed more thoroughly below) has been determined. Each has reached sexual maturity, or is soon approaching (varies by species), and is ready for breeding with a chosen a mate in due course."

So it's now ok to choose a mate based on the factors of coloration or pattern because line breeding has been approved (TM) by you?

4. "Still, in many instances our SAFE pet stock exhibits most, or even all, of the same characteristics as a SAFE breeder frog, yet our keen eye after looking at literally thousands of frogs and compared to the best breeders we have tells us which have the best chance to be the prolific breeder frogs we hope for, for us, and for you!"

So what you're saying here is that there really is no difference between "pet" and "breeder" frogs since they exhibit most or even all of the same characteristics as each other? The only difference is the price right? Oh but your keen eyes can tell the difference....after a couple of years in the hobby...and other hobbyist who have spent a much longer time in the hobby don't have that "keen eye"(TM)? Right? 

So which is it? There is a difference between "pet" and "breeder" frogs? Or there is not a difference? Or is it that only the Waschers in their infinite frog wisdom and "keen eyes" can tell the difference? 
I don't have a "keen eye" but can tell the difference between horse sh*t and bull sh*t. Except in this case, where it's all one in the same.


----------



## aurvrrat

Given that their target customers are primarily less informed individuals/noobs, one can only hope that if one of these individuals stumbles upon their site they will be more overwhelmed by the inconsistent ramblings of this company and turned off from them. I know I would be.

While I understand the importance of educating the public with correct information, which is not always (rarely) the case with them, they seem to be trying to come on too strong with the attempt to educate. If their goal is the sell frogs why not make it more simple on the website, like so many other frog vendor sites. Its like they are trying too hard, everything that is said as a correction to their site on here seems to warrant at least a new paragraph somewhere on their site to justify their actions and/or reasoning.

Oh well, maybe it will just put more people off, and direct them to do their own research and seek out this forum for their own before buying from this company.


----------



## Judy S

Ed..I went back to the post you suggested...and found that whole thread fascinating...and very funny as well...if people following this thread don't go back to the beginning of it...at least read from post #22 of 12/06...some of the following posts are hysterically funny...either that or I have a very warped sense of humor.....


----------



## Charlie Q

I found this on their family website, i think that it proves they have no regard for true science. This quote can be found at the very top of their page Holy Spirit U - Discipleship

it refers to a cross shape in the middle of a galaxy

"The photo at left is an actual photo taken from space. It is on the Hubblesite.org website. The photo is titled: "X Structure at Core of Whirlpool Galaxy (M51)". NASA has many theories as to what it is, but they offered those only recently. *Sometimes scientists are to weak to rest on something they cannot explain, so they make stuff up.*"


----------



## Charlie Q

Oh, and apparently magnolia leaves are no good.

Care and Feeding


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Judy S said:


> either that or I have a very warped sense of humor.....


This would be my guess


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> US Dart Frog ONE HOP™ Shipping!
> Temperatures on day of arrival do not exceed 1,000 degrees before the frogs are delivered to home or business address, or nearest FedEx location.
> Temperatures during transit do not drop below 413 degrees for delivery to home or business address.
> Temperatures during transit do not drop below minus 88 (i.e., 88 below zero) for pickup at the nearest FedEx location, OR the temp when your nose hairs permanently and forever fuse together, if there is a FedEx service center within 15 miles otherwise we ship to your home.
> Won't happen now, but if it does, IF, IF it does, call us and we will accept your word on the matter, nothing more is needed! (We aren't worried about frog thieves!)


Wtf? /facepalm


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Charlie Q said:


> Oh, and apparently magnolia leaves are no good.
> 
> Care and Feeding


Pretty funny. As if we need even more proof of their fundamental lack of good husbandry practices.


----------



## toostrange

U.S. Dart Frog ONLY sells top quality, SAFE dart frogs at THE best price! We do the work to get them happy and maturing, so you don't have too. While some are more shy than others, as per the species, over time all of our dart frog adults will become a colorful companion. In captivity they learn to depend on you, their care giver and owner, and bond with you on sight. They already know they need to eat and instinctively defend against predators in the wild, and yet in captivity they also learn they are protected by their owner. All of our A1, SAFE dart frog adults are secure and friendly! How do we know? They talk..usually some foreign language, but they talk. We had to start using Rosetta Stone language tools to keep up with them.

Where are these people coming from? Just plain weird. After reading website makes me wonder why anyone new or old to hobby would deal with them. Just so many out there rambles, that make no sense what so ever. When this post was first started I thought people were being a little hard on them. But over time and watching things unfold its just plain absurd!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

We all know what`s going to happen, their going to read the last few pages here and change
everything again.
Now if you`ll excuse me I have to remove all the Magnolia Leaves from my tanks.


----------



## edwardsatc

Enlightened Rogue said:


> We all know what`s going to happen, their going to read the last few pages here and change
> everything again.


At least the changes usually hold some entertainment value. At this point, all I can do is read, laugh, shake my head, and consider it the ravings of a madman. 

Some new ravings:



safedarfros.com website said:


> One last item, in order to reach out to the would-be new frog enthusiasts, we all should know the marketing studies *prove* "poison" is the number one reason why people do not buy these frogs, even though they love them! If dart frogs bred in captivity are truly harmless, and the use of "poison" is tradition unless they truly are poisonous wild caught frogs, only those that want to keep things the same want to keep using old deceptive terms. Most noteworthy, they are the people who profit the most. Stated another way, change from the way things are is not welcomed by those who profit most, either in $ or ego-strokes. Consider the religious Jews who had Jesus crucified, they definitely wanted things to stay the same becasue of the $ and ego, and yet their acts actually propelled the power of the Lord by killing him!


So let me get this straight, they say that their marketing studies "prove" that the term "poison" is the number one reason people don't buy them. Yet, they go on to say that those who label them as "poison" dart frogs are those who profit most? 

They like to talk about things like "proof" and their "studies", but have never backed up any of those statements with data ... I think we all know why that is.



safedarfros.com website said:


> We are a non-traditional company that prefers traditional accuracy for the benefit of all people, new, young, and old, to dart frogs.


Non-traditional ...well, that's an understatement!

Traditional accuracy ... hah, anything but accurate. Unless by "accuracy" they mean that they'll say whatever it takes to sell frogs to unsuspecting newbs.



Charlie Q said:


> Oh, and apparently magnolia leaves are no good.
> Care and Feeding


It seems that if there's a majority opinion within the dart frog community, on any aspect of breeding and husbandry, they feel the need to take a stance that is in direct opposition.


----------



## hydrophyte

edwardsatc said:


> At least the changes usually hold some entertainment value. At this point, all I can do is read, laugh, shake my head, and consider it the ravings of a madman.
> 
> Some new ravings:
> ...


Oh my God that guy has totally lost it. He's a lunatic.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Malibu Azuerus Blue Bubbles!?!

US Dart Frog - Tinctorius Signature


----------



## carola1155

*No need to bring in other threads and other people that don't actually have anything to do with this.* 

This thread has been staying _reasonably_ on topic... Let's keep it that way


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I see they`re selling Samurai "lemmon" yellow tincs.

Hey Rick, there`s only one m in lemon


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

carola1155 said:


> *No need to bring in other threads and other people that don't actually have anything to do with this.*
> 
> This thread has been staying _reasonably_ on topic... Let's keep it that way


Sorry Tom, my bad.


----------



## nish07

Off topic sort of but the Pope said the Jews weren't responsible for killing Jesus. But then again this guy is kind of wrong on several occasions. I wonder if he'd sell frogs to Jews.

That comment might be enough to get his website taken down or rewritten due to protest. I'd feel bad, though, as he 'convinced his father to spend his college money on a dart frog store'. Not sure what truth there is to any of that either. Who can trust someone who is so full of it?

It's really out there.

-Nish


----------



## markpulawski

Early on Rick mentioned he WAS a lawyer but he threw it in for this, this is his business and how he is making his living. I saw this when Judy prompted us to go back and read from a certain post....I read a few and wanted to see their responses, it is his 2nd or 3rd after the date Judy mentioned.


----------



## JayMillz

It's funny how they put "ALL SALES ARE CONFIDENTIAL!" on their page. Has 1 person even bought any frogs from them & got them tested and posted if they came back clean or dirty? Is there any kind of legit feedback on DFW? I wish I had froglets of what they were selling. I'd undercut them and include pics of clean fecal results in the ad and just watch them fade away...when my AZUREUS, not malibus, mature and produce offspring, I'll be giving them away as gifts to help do my part  I also think it's funny how Dillon just tacks on different names or "specialties" and ups the prices a couple of bucks. I'd be willing to bet that if I placed an order for a signature line, a classic line, an A1 breeder, a SAFE dart frog line, a frogmatch frog, or any other stupid shit that they come up with in the future, it's going to just be whatever random frog they pull out of the community viv anyways. Anyone live close enough to tour their set up?

If anyone has purchased frogs from Dillon, can you please post the results of your fecal tests?? I'd be so worried to introduce frogs into my collection that came from a house where a handful of kids are responsible for taking care of 1000s of them and avoiding cross contamination...


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I've noticed they haven't posted any made up reviews recently.

I'm actually tempted to buy a small inexpensive group to have it tested. I'm sure though, even if people posted the results, that they would claim we are somehow tainting the results.


----------



## Alexmenke92

I just can't stand the descriptions…

"SUNKIST dart frogs are burly strong frogs. They have wide mouths of the species, and tough like their terribilis cousins. They can eat larger insects and are quite curious. They adore attention, but need familiarity first. They like to look at people"

"All SUNBEE frogs are black and yellow-orange. The patterns differ and the yellow-orange can be more yellow or orange. Still, the body shape is always the same. They behave as secure as any frog. They do not get disturbed & rest easily. EASIEST CARE FROG!"

"APOLLO tinctorius frogs are medium sized tincs and behave a bit more gentle until full grown when they behave as all tincs. Their beautiful white & black back is most distinctive. APOLLO frogs bond with the owner more slowly, but perfect eye contact too."

Can we please stop with the bonding and eye contact? Seriously…apart from abhorrent grammar and spelling, misinformation (™) seems to be their trademark of choice. Not that they need anymore of those anyway.


----------



## Charlie Q

So i figured i'd just double check with rosetta stone to make sure they didn't have a frog language software. this was the response i got  :


Dear Charles,
Thank you for contacting Rosetta Stone. We hope that we have answered all of your questions.

We do not currently sell a language that enables learners to speak to frogs. 

Thank you and have a great day!


----------



## FroggyKnight

Guess that means you have to schedule special classes with DFW

…...Did you really ask Rosetta Stone?? 

John


----------



## Charlie Q

yes. i included a link to the washer's website where it mentions rosette stone. i was hoping they would sue their pants off. oh well, one can dream...


----------



## FroggyKnight

You just made my weekend great, Charlie! That is totally awesome. Thank you.

John


----------



## Charlie Q

FroggyKnight said:


> You just made my weekend great, Charlie!


y'know, i do my best.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Charlie Q said:


> y'know, i do my best.


Nice work young man


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I sent those Jack Wagons an e-mail that Rosetta Stone was notified about them using
their name, I did not include your name Charlie.
They have yet to respond to any of my e-mails so I really don`t expect them to now.
I guess I`ll just have to contact Rosetta Stone myself and see what they say.


----------



## Charlie Q

the only 2 ways i see of them closing shop is:
1. somebody sues them and that leads to financial collapse
2. we all undercut their prices on frogs they offer, until they can't make any money and it leads to financial collapse


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Charlie Q said:


> the only 2 ways i see of them closing shop is:
> 1. somebody sues them and that leads to financial collapse


I`m workin on this one. I have some time off from work, what the hell I don`t
have anything better to do.


----------



## Wings

You guys seriously need to be careful and cut back on the flaming. I mean, you do NOT want one of these bad boys coming at 'ya.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I think that`s their Samuri/Viking/Swordsman signature TM brand


----------



## Dendro Dave

Charlie Q said:


> the only 2 ways i see of them closing shop is:
> 1. somebody sues them and that leads to financial collapse
> 2. we all undercut their prices on frogs they offer, until they can't make any money and it leads to financial collapse


I don't know, it isn't super easy to make a living at this and they have limited species available. They've alienated and cut themselves off from all the forums, so they've cut their customer base. And at wholesale prices it is even harder to make profit. Word of mouth is spreading about them and their reputation is in the toilet with everyone who actually knows anything about them. All they have to draw on are the people who haven't yet heard about their wacky practices. Chances are every time someone gets frogs from them and shows up on the forums for help they'll be informed about these people and then that customer will never go back to them, especially since everyone in the know doesn't wanna touch frogs that came from them. So I think repeat sales are going to be a problem for them. The longer they operate, the less customers they'll actually have. Also they may have trouble buying new stock because I don't think many people here will sell to them. I wouldn't even sell them supplies.


----------



## Charlie Q

True but even if they aren't making much profit each sale is an encouragement. And they have thrown too much into this they aren't giving up. I feel like we should be more aggressive than just word of mouth.


----------



## Wings

That is a tough one. It's sort of like selling a puppy you found off the street. You can call it a Poodle, but it is probably a schnauzer, etc etc.

Unfortunately they are naming them after what they are (sort of), minus the absurd pre-school branding tactic (sorry if your 3 year old is actually coming up with these names!), so I don't think you can get any sort of mislabeling or fraud on what they are selling.

I think strategically these are marketed towards small children and uninformed adults who want to buy their yapping kid something other than a 200 gallon aquarium or dog/cat. Also, chances are they won't care to come onto a forum and be fed as much "information" on care as possible up front until their "pet" dies because the owner wanted to bond with it during a 2 hour staring contest in the bathroom.

It's like they took a sophisticated, somewhat overwhelming (and for a reason) hobby and turned it into a PBS mini-series. I notice they don't have any difficult species to care for either, another brilliant marketing strategy.

Santa is watching you DFW (not the furniture store!)


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Charlie Q said:


> I feel like we should be more aggressive than just word of mouth.


Rick, when you read this know that we`re working on it


----------



## Judy S

Maybe at every show that has frogs, a business card or something can be handed out that describes DB and and details that would be quickly read by an attendee...and eventually those "noobs" may sign up and become educated...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I just contacted Sunkist letting them know that their name has been
trademarked by Safe Dart Frogs.

Enjoy your day Rick


----------



## Charlie Q

Good work boss!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Wings said:


> You guys seriously need to be careful and cut back on the flaming. I mean, you do NOT want one of these bad boys coming at 'ya.


I seriously just snorted coffee all over my iPad.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I just contacted Sunkist letting them know that their name has been
> trademarked by Safe Dart Frogs.
> 
> Enjoy your day Rick


Even worse, I just called Japan and left a voicemail for their prime minister informing him that they're dishonoring the Japanese Samurai warrior ethos. Expect a squad of ninjas soon.


----------



## carola1155

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I just contacted Sunkist letting them know that their name has been
> trademarked by Safe Dart Frogs.
> 
> Enjoy your day Rick


Trademark/copyrighting doesn't work in this way..

Sunkist the orange company owns the rights to that with regards to food and drink items. They do not have the power/domain when it comes to completely unrelated items. Rick is actually free to use sunkist with regards to frogs... it is just stupid. 

There was recently a bit of a trademark/copyright issue in the craft beer world and I'll use this as an example... Dogfish Head has a beer called "Namaste" that they have been brewing for several years now. They own the trademark for "Namaste" in regards to the beer/brewery world. A new microbrewery popped up in Texas at a place called the Whip In. The owner (of Indian heritage) then decided to rename the brewery to "Namaste Brewery". He was contacted by Dogfish asking to discontinue use of the name. He complained and took it to social media but ultimately failed because of his lack of understanding of branding/trademarking. The new brewery had to be renamed. 

Now... Can I go and use the word "namaste" for other things? Sure. I could make a line of ball point pens called Namaste and Dogfish Head would be able to do nothing to stop me. (I doubt they would care to anyway). It is all about protecting the name with regards to the products that you actually sell. 

We could all go and trademark "sunkist" with regards to plenty of other things and it would be the burden of the Sunkist brand to actually prove that there is some way to associate the product with their products. If we made orange-scented pens called "sunkist pens" they may have a case... but if we have poison dart frogs that are orange colored it would be really tough to prove any sort of correlation between them and the sunkist orange (food item) brand. 

If you wanna read about the brewery thing this kinda breaks it down
Microbrewers Go From Mellow To Bitter Over Branding - Forbes

Now... back on topic


----------



## edwardsatc

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I just contacted Sunkist letting them know that their name has been
> trademarked by Safe Dart Frogs.
> 
> Enjoy your day Rick


Unfortunately, their use of the label of Sunkist doesn't violate any trademark since trademarks apply to the goods or services specified in the trademark application/registration. Trademarks are generally unique to a specific good or service. For example, SAFE is trademarked for a variety of products (in fact, a whole shitload of products): 

Free Trademark Search | Protect Business Name | Incorporate Your Business | Trademarkia

So as long as they aren't using terms like SAFE or Sunkist for a product/service or similar product /service that has that trademark, then no violation has occurred. 

In other words, they can use the label Sunkist as long is there is no existing trademark _for frogs_.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Well Safe Dart Frogs has finally answered my e-mails
asking me to ''PLEASE GO AWAY'' 
Not on your life!

Whats the matter guys....are we getting to ya!


----------



## edwardsatc

Looks like Tom and I posted at the same time.

Tom probably did a better job of explaining it than I


----------



## edwardsatc

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Well Safe Dart Frogs has finally answered my e-mails
> asking me to ''PLEASE GO AWAY''
> Not on your life!
> 
> Whats the matter guys....are we getting to ya!


Be careful. Now that they have replied, any further contact could be used as grounds for harassment.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

edwardsatc said:


> Unfortunately, their use of the label of Sunkist doesn't violate any trademark trademark application/registration
> 
> ].


No problem, I`m not done yet


----------



## Charlie Q

edwardsatc said:


> Be careful. Now that they have replied, any further contact could be used a grounds for harassment.


They are harassing the hobby! 
Just kissing. God advice.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I'm no lawyer, but I thought with things like "Sunkist" vs "Sun Kissed" that there is more room to claim trademark infringement. 

They probably wouldn't even give it a second thought anyway. I'm sure they're not worried about some kid and his dad raising frogs in their basement.

But it would be hilarious if they did. I'm sure they have some very good, well paid lawyers on retainer with nothing better to do than harass some bible thumpers with at least a cease and desist letter.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

edwardsatc said:


> Be careful. Now that they have replied, any further contact could be used as grounds for harassment.


Gotcha Donn, just knowing I got to them was good enough for me


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok, just received another e-mail from the Addams Family pretty much saying this forum is BS
and not to believe anything that is said here.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, just received another e-mail from the Addams Family pretty much saying this forum is BS
> and not to believe anything that is said here.


Ya I'm sure that is what they'll be telling everyone they can, in the hopes that at least a few believe them and buy some frogs. Nevermind all the scientists, teachers, other generally well educated and experienced people here that have been doing this far longer then they have. 

These people will basically do anything to sell frogs, so at this point I don't think anything coming from them could shock me.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Charlie Q said:


> True but even if they aren't making much profit each sale is an encouragement. And they have thrown too much into this they aren't giving up. I feel like we should be more aggressive than just word of mouth.


Ya I share that sentiment, I just don't know what else we can actually do. I think they will eventually implode given they've pretty much scorched the earth surrounding them. Hopefully it is just a matter of time before they fade away. 




Wings said:


> That is a tough one. It's sort of like selling a puppy you found off the street. You can call it a Poodle, but it is probably a schnauzer, etc etc.
> 
> Unfortunately they are naming them after what they are (sort of), minus the absurd pre-school branding tactic (sorry if your 3 year old is actually coming up with these names!), so I don't think you can get any sort of mislabeling or fraud on what they are selling.
> 
> I think strategically these are marketed towards small children and uninformed adults who want to buy their yapping kid something other than a 200 gallon aquarium or dog/cat. Also, chances are they won't care to come onto a forum and be fed as much "information" on care as possible up front until their "pet" dies because the owner wanted to bond with it during a 2 hour staring contest in the bathroom.
> 
> It's like they took a sophisticated, somewhat overwhelming (and for a reason) hobby and turned it into a PBS mini-series. I notice they don't have any difficult species to care for either, another brilliant marketing strategy.
> 
> Santa is watching you DFW (not the furniture store!)


That is one of my major issues with them. They have no problem marketing directly to the most ill prepared people to keep darts. They aren't doing much to help educate their buyers either, especially if they are steering them away from the forums because we're all BS over here. 

In my mind that is an unethical business practice. It's like standing outside a bar and trying to sell handguns to everyone that stumbles out drunk, but Is old enough to have a permit.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

They also told me they`re blocking my e-mails and not to 
bother sending any more. 
It`s ok Rick, I got into your head today, that's good enough 
for me. Sooner or later a lot of froggers end up here, you did right?
and we will educate them the correct way.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, just received another e-mail from the Addams Family pretty much saying this forum is BS
> and not to believe anything that is said here.


Post it for all to see.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Post it for all to see.


Sorry, it was deleted.


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I've noticed they haven't posted any made up reviews recently.


As if on cue



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> One for the wholesale/dealer curious:
> 
> ...just finished unpacking and setting up your frogs. I just want to compliment you in a big way on your sizing, the obvious health/quality of your frogs, and packaging. It was a very nice shipment and those are some very nice frogs. I don't think we'll have any trouble moving these in volume and I'll be doing what I can to promote them. Thanks again, and looking forward to doing more business with you soon,
> 
> [*Name witheld by us*.]


Pretty sad when your reputation is so terrible that you have to withhold the name of someone who is actually selling your frogs.

It's really no secret to anyone who has been following their activities and the amphibian ads ....


----------



## WVFrogman

Glad I found this thread. started reading but as soon as I got to page 15 couldn't take it any longer. Nice to see that this hobby hasn't turned into everything else with the crazy morphs and cross breeding.


----------



## NewToFrogs

I'm part of a fish forum that is being sued by monster energy for copyright infringement because the logo of the fish forum is also an M. I don't think the company expected any resistance due to the legal fee's that are involved with disputing a claim at all, so maybe it's not absurd to hope that sunkist will respond.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

NewToFrogs said:


> so maybe it's not absurd to hope that sunkist will respond.


They have responded back to me.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> They have responded back to me.


What did they have to say?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> As if on cue
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sad when your reputation is so terrible that you have to withhold the name of someone who is actually selling your frogs.
> 
> It's really no secret to anyone who has been following their activities and the amphibian ads ....


Or more likely, there is not actual wholesale at all and they can't print a name because they know well verify.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ZookeeperDoug said:


> What did they have to say?


Don`t know how to copy and paste it but this is what it said

Dear Mr.....( that's me)
Thank you for contacting Sunkist Growers. We are looking into this matter.
We appreciate your concern for our famous trademark.
Best Regards
Karen Holm


----------



## InvertaHerp

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, just received another e-mail from the Addams Family pretty much saying this forum is BS
> and not to believe anything that is said here.



Post it? Please?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

InvertaHerp said:


> Post it? Please?


Sorry it`s gone, but it said "you really don`t believe any of that do you?"
I sent them a link to this thread and that was their response.
They also asked "what false information are they providing"


----------



## kgb

... so, I havent been following this thread, and obviously am not going to be able to catch up at this point LOL

Can someone make a summary? ha


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

kgb said:


> ... so, I havent been following this thread, and obviously am not going to be able to catch up at this point LOL
> 
> Can someone make a summary? ha


Yea, stay the hell away from Safe Dart Fogs and tell anyone you know.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Well I certainly don't believe any of this hogwash. Speaking of, my AURORAS(TM) need a new T-BAG(TM) to play on. I also need to work on their perfect eye contact with them, so they can display conformation. Oh, I also need more fly-doh (TM)......


----------



## Judy S

kgb said:


> ... so, I havent been following this thread, and obviously am not going to be able to catch up at this point LOL
> 
> Can someone make a summary? ha


You gotta be kiddin'----it's like trying to break into the middle of the Sopranos series to have someone 'splain....but it certainly is entertaining even though serious at the bottom line....keep following...


----------



## Alexmenke92

Trust me, its worth reading all of it. Not only for humor, but just to see how pertinent it is to stop these people. 


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## FroggyKnight

Wow. I just realized this thread getting close to ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND VIEWS!!!!!!

That is a lot of lost customers. 

John


----------



## Judy S

John...you are definitely twisted... but I do have a question about the "Sunkist" issue...as long as they don't describe their frogs as smelling like oranges, which may be their next step...they're okay with "that" word???


----------



## FroggyKnight

Judy S said:


> John...you are definitely twisted... but I do have a question about the "Sunkist" issue...as long as they don't describe their frogs as smelling like oranges, which may be their next step...they're okay with "that" word???


LOL! I thought you were talking about me for a second, Judy

John


----------



## Judy S

John...I'm worried about you....truly.....


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Judy S said:


> John...you are definitely twisted... but I do have a question about the "Sunkist" issue...as long as they don't describe their frogs as smelling like oranges, which may be their next step...they're okay with "that" word???


Yea, it probably won`t amount to anything. It was more important to me 
that I pissed them off....and thank you!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Judy S said:


> John...I'm worried about you....truly.....


One too many Zappa concerts Judy, what can I say.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok it`s been a long day I`m done.

Good night Rick
Sleep Tight
Don`t let the Dendroboard members bite.


----------



## Charlie Q

Dang. You've been busy. Good work.


----------



## Charlie Q

Charlie Q said:


> They are harassing the hobby!
> Just kissing. God advice.


wtf?? what the heck was i on? 

OH! was trying to use my fiancé's stupid iPhone. those little touchscreen buttons give me the fits.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Charlie Q said:


> wtf?? what the heck was i on?
> 
> OH! was trying to use my fiancé's stupid iPhone. those little touchscreen buttons give me the fits.


HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

that was one of the best typos I've seen in a while. I didn't tell you about it, just to make sure you wouldn't edit

Back on track-- Should we make a list of how many morphs (in our terms and theirs) DFW has? 

John


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

You guys can take it from here, I`m frickin wiped out from yesterday.
These people consider US the joke and not themselves. I did what I could.
Whatever.
I`m getting to old for this nonsense.

*EDIT-sorry woke up in a bad mood this morning


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> You guys can take it from here, I`m frickin wiped out from yesterday.
> These people consider US the joke and not themselves. I did what I could.
> Whatever.
> I`m getting to old for this nonsense.
> 
> *EDIT-sorry woke up in a bad mood this morning


Of course they do. Assuredly they are the joke. Quite literally the laughingstock of the community and the hobby. They know this. All their efforts to show otherwise are to save face.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Hey, did you know?



> For example, MANY hobbyists will breed frogs and sell the best to their local pet shops at a young age, and dump their runts and sickly on the unsuspecting.


O'rly? Such complete BS. Actually unlike Rick and his "genius" son, most hobbyists don't because we know they won't get the proper care they deserve.




> If the frogs were NOT raised by the seller, do they guranatee health and quality lie us?


This typo is oddly ironic. I'm honestly baffled that this man who is supposedly a lawyer, can't proofread his own website. I'm no grammar/spelling nazi, but when it comes to publishing a basic website, man these people fail.


----------



## grendel88

I Ga-Run-TEE they are reading this thread as they type up the nonsense used to separate themselves from the rest of the community. They are just distracted.

Or, all of those trademarks and patents didn't leave enough cash flow for a few Microsoft Office updates.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

How much fun could people who sold them their frogs have with these guys???

Think outside the box.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> This typo is oddly ironic. I'm honestly baffled that this man who is supposedly a lawyer, can't proofread his own website. I'm no grammar/spelling nazi, but when it comes to publishing a basic website, man these people fail.


It's because even they have trouble reading or rereading their own BS.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

ZookeeperDoug said:


> How much fun could people who sold them their frogs have with these guys???
> 
> Think outside the box.


Yes, let's have some fun shall we???

Waschers, I sold you an adult breeding pair of D. tinctorius Cobalt...not Aurora, you even called them Cobalts in your vendor feedback http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/736833-post4.html
So where did the made up, pretend name of Aurora come from?
Do you know where those Cobalts came from? Are you disclosing what line they are? They came from Josh's frogs! HAHAHAHAHAHA You're selling Josh's Frogs line of Cobalts and you're making up your own fake name for them. They aren't Auroras, they're Cobalts!!!

I sold you a pair of D. tinctorius Inferalanis, not Alanis Eclipse, another one of your silly, fake names. Any idea where they came from originally? I know the answer is no because all you care about is making up fake names. The came from Rainforest Station originally. 

I sold you some P. vittatus. NOT Neon, the fake name you invented. 
Any idea of the original line???? Oh no? They came from Florian Farms. Pssst. They are P. vittatus, not Neon!!

I sold you D. auratus El Cope, now strangely enough you are actually selling them as El Cope. Why is that? If you insist that all the frogs are the same and they interbreed in the wild and in captivity and they are all the same frogs all mixed up then why continue with the locale specific name on this particular frog? Contradicting yourself yet again?? Oh by the way, those El Cope are UE line originally. 

You can bet I'll include this little line in all of my subsequent frog ads. "Why by made up frogs at DFW when you can get siblings of their original breeding stock directly from me. Except these are tried and true, established, and correctly name species/morphs. Not fake names expressly invented for the purpose of marketing by duping new hobbyists that aren't educated in every aspect of common morph names."


----------



## InvertaHerp

Also, let us think about the fact that these guys are basically saying that everybody else sells frogs that are inferior to the ones DFW sells. If that is the case, well, they got THEIR frogs from these so called inferior breeders/sellers. So aren't their frogs technically inferior as well? Or are they not because they got made up BS names so they could be marketed better to people who walk into a pet store and say, "Ooh pretty frog!"? I hope they aren't expecting us to believe that perfect frogs displaying "confirmation" just materialized out of thin air in their living room, and from those frogs they bred even more perfect, Signature(TM) frogs.


----------



## Charlie Q

So anyone who has proof that they sold the wascher's frogs should file a lawsuit saying that they are false advertising to gain an unfair advantage in the sale of dart frogs.

one person may not be able to finance such a venture, but ANYONE who sells frogs could claim damages from this, so if everyone filed a class action lawsuit, then the hobby could stand a chance to bring these guys to court.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Just when I thought I was out...
I get dragged back in!!! 

Hey Jon, you could always send them
an e-mail, worked for me


----------



## aspidites73

Charlie Q said:


> So anyone who has proof that they sold the wascher's frogs should file a lawsuit saying that they are false advertising to gain an unfair advantage in the sale of dart frogs.
> 
> one person may not be able to finance such a venture, but ANYONE who sells frogs could claim damages from this, so if everyone filed a class action lawsuit, then the hobby could stand a chance to bring these guys to court.


Dillon, himself, left feedback for 18 purchases representing every species they, as a company, claim as being superior to the very people who sold them their frogs.


----------



## Charlie Q

thats good. now prove that dillon and his username are the same person.


----------



## aspidites73

Charlie Q said:


> thats good. now prove that dillon and his username are the same person.


Read the first pages of this same thread. He started it, and promoted it, as a representative of DFW

EDIT: also read all of the posts/threads from that username. They all, for the most part, link him as: 1. a purchaser of frogs from breeders within this website and 2. a representative of DFW


----------



## Charlie Q

Right, I understand that. My point is, I hope somebody is documenting every detail so that a judge has no doubt that the things said were said by DFW.

remember, everybody is a liar in the courtroom. so they could easily try to say that someone was impersonating them. remember, you are dealing with crazy people.


----------



## aspidites73

Charlie Q said:


> Right, I understand that. My point is, I hope somebody is documenting every detail so that a judge has no doubt that the things said were said by DFW.
> 
> remember, everybody is a liar in the courtroom. so they could easily try to say that someone was impersonating them. remember, you are dealing with crazy people.


Crazy as they may be, and litigation aside, there is no doubt they left the very evidence needed to contradict nearly every aspect of their website. Courts are based in truths which can be proved (agreed, charlie). Public opinion is based on perception of truth.


----------



## Charlie Q

Courts are based upon those truths which can be proved.


----------



## JPccusa

Charlie Q said:


> thats good. now prove that dillon and his username are the same person.


Linking his username to the email address used to create the profile should suffice.


----------



## carola1155

JPccusa said:


> Linking his username to the email address used to create the profile should suffice.


oh and the IP addresses used to make those posts...


----------



## Charlie Q

BAM! that's what i'm talking about! can we get that information all together so if there is a lawsuit, the people who need it can get it easily?


----------



## edwardsatc

All this talk of lawsuits makes us look petty and vindictive ... and, in my opinion, it is just that (petty and vindictive). That's not to say that some of the comments made here by myself and others are not petty and sometimes a bit vindictive, but talk of lawsuits is just over the top for me.

Many (most?) of us here don't like what these people are up to or the potential implications for the hobby. Their marketing schemes are what most of us would consider unethical. Their trademarks are silly. Their opinions are often preposterous. Their knowledge and understanding of basic scientific principles are lacking (at best). They seem to prey on those with no previous knowledge of dart frog care and husbandry. Their grammar and spelling is incredibly atrocious. Heck there's 120+ pages of mostly legit criticism in this thread ...

I've participated heavily in this thread, been highly outspoken, and don't want to see this business succeed anymore than others here, but this talk of lawsuits is unfounded, counterproductive, and just sad ... 

So with that, this is where I'll bow out of this thread.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Donn,

I think that's a bit of an overreaction. Only one person is really advocating suggesting a lawsuit. I agree, I don't think a suit would do anything. It's also a little silly to talk about, but let people have their fun with it. You've been an important contributor and I hope you'll stick with it.

What is important from the last page or so, is that this board and Dillion's own feedback posts provide Very solid evidence that the frogs they're breeding are in fact from the hobby and contradicts DFWs claims that their frogs are superior.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Yes, let's have some fun shall we???
> 
> Waschers, I sold you an adult breeding pair of D. tinctorius Cobalt...not Aurora, you even called them Cobalts in your vendor feedback http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/736833-post4.html
> So where did the made up, pretend name of Aurora come from?
> Do you know where those Cobalts came from? Are you disclosing what line they are? They came from Josh's frogs! HAHAHAHAHAHA You're selling Josh's Frogs line of Cobalts and you're making up your own fake name for them. They aren't Auroras, they're Cobalts!!!
> 
> I sold you a pair of D. tinctorius Inferalanis, not Alanis Eclipse, another one of your silly, fake names. Any idea where they came from originally? I know the answer is no because all you care about is making up fake names. The came from Rainforest Station originally.
> 
> I sold you some P. vittatus. NOT Neon, the fake name you invented.
> Any idea of the original line???? Oh no? They came from Florian Farms. Pssst. They are P. vittatus, not Neon!!
> 
> I sold you D. auratus El Cope, now strangely enough you are actually selling them as El Cope. Why is that? If you insist that all the frogs are the same and they interbreed in the wild and in captivity and they are all the same frogs all mixed up then why continue with the locale specific name on this particular frog? Contradicting yourself yet again?? Oh by the way, those El Cope are UE line originally.
> 
> You can bet I'll include this little line in all of my subsequent frog ads. "Why by made up frogs at DFW when you can get siblings of their original breeding stock directly from me. Except these are tried and true, established, and correctly name species/morphs. Not fake names expressly invented for the purpose of marketing by duping new hobbyists that aren't educated in every aspect of common morph names."


This is great, but I was think a bit more creatively and outside the box. Isn't their some information about these frogs that you sold them that you've been holding back.


----------



## Charlie Q

I'm sorry, i just feel like everyone is sitting here complaining about them, and nobody is doing anything. I tend to think that if you aren't actually going to DO something about what is bothering you, then don't complain about it.

But I don't actually have anything to lose from their business succeeding, so really it is just their awful business practices that are pissing me off.

If nobody wants a lawsuit, that's no problem. it does't really effect me at all, personally. it just kind of dumb that there are 1000 people complaining and the only person who has done anything is Enlightened Rogue.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Petty and vindictive?
Yea right that's us. At least I tried to
do something a little more aggressive.

These people are not going away and neither
am I. If what I'm doing is petty and vindictive
so be it. I'll sleep good tonight


----------



## Dane

Given that they are attempting to indiscriminately undercut EVERY other dart frog breeder/vendor with misinformation and lies, there is the potential for honest folks to see reduced revenue. I don't consider that to be a negligible or petty outcome that should be ignored.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Charlie Q said:


> I'm sorry, i just feel like everyone is sitting here complaining about them, and nobody is doing anything. I tend to think that if you aren't actually going to DO something about what is bothering you, then don't complain about it.
> 
> But I don't actually have anything to lose from their business succeeding, so really it is just their awful business practices that are pissing me off.
> 
> If nobody wants a lawsuit, that's no problem. it does't really effect me at all, personally. it just kind of dumb that there are 1000 people complaining and the only person who has done anything is Enlightened Rogue.


But people are doing things. A lot is going on. And I think it's unfair to categorize people's commentary in this thread as complaining. There is a lot more going on here than that. People are informing others, were contacting wholesales and retailers, reptile shows, etc.

It's not that nobody wants to see a lawsuit, it's just that at least for me, I'm not a litigious type, in fact, I tend to think most people jump to sue to quick in this country. If someone had a legitimate case against them, I'm all for it. But all of us banding together trying to say they've caused us loss is unlikely to succeed and just be a waste of time in an already strapped judicial system.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Dane said:


> Given that they are attempting to indiscriminately undercut EVERY other dart frog breeder/vendor with misinformation and lies, there is the potential for honest folks to see reduced revenue. I don't consider that to be a negligible or petty outcome that should be ignored.


Ok agreed, but how do you prove that to a judge and jury in a court of law. That's gonna be the tricky part.


----------



## Charlie Q

fair enough. I would like to see more posted here about what wholesalers and shows have been contacted, and who has contacted them. because from what i've read, and i understand that you are saying more is done behind the scenes than i realize, but it seems like there is more complaining than doing.


----------



## InvertaHerp

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Donn,
> 
> I think that's a bit of an overreaction. Only one person is really advocating suggesting a lawsuit. I agree, I don't think a suit would do anything. It's also a little silly to talk about, but let people have their fun with it. You've been an important contributor and I hope you'll stick with it.
> 
> What is important from the last page or so, is that this board and Dillion's own feedback posts provide Very solid evidence that the frogs they're breeding are in fact from the hobby and contradicts DFWs claims that their frogs are superior.


As I said previously, lol


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Something else to consider, there is a lot more going on here that doesn't get talked about in this thread because Rick and Dillion read this.

Edit: lol, oops


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Charlie Q said:


> fair enough. I would like to see more posted here about what wholesalers and shows have been contacted, and who has contacted them. because from what i've read, and i understand that you are saying more is done behind the scenes than i realize, but it seems like there is more complaining than doing.


I know the entire show list that they had listed on their website was contacted and informed. I can't find that list anymore on their site.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Just sent them an email. I praised them and acted like I loved what they were doing and hated the forum. I'm going to do that for a bit, till they tell me some whoppers, then go apeshit.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

InvertaHerp said:


> Just sent them an email. I praised them and acted like I loved what they were doing and hated the forum. I'm going to do that for a bit, till they tell me some whoppers, then go apeshit.


Just the fact that were doing stuff like this, and they KNOW it, means they have to carefully vet and think about this with every prospective customer. That alone has to be incredibly time consuming. It is comparative to a denial of service attack. 

If the great many of us make various inquiries, questions, searches, etc, it means they have to wade through all of that to determine who the actual interested customers, if any, there really are.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Charlie Q said:


> fair enough. I would like to see more posted here about what wholesalers and shows have been contacted, and who has contacted them. because from what i've read, and i understand that you are saying more is done behind the scenes than i realize, but it seems like there is more complaining than doing.


Here is a list, I won't link directly to their website for obvious reasons, but it is still there. It was just a bit more hidden.

Jan 18-19, 2014
Raleigh, NC
North Carolina Reptile & Exotic Animal S - State Fairgrounds Scott Building
Jan 18, 2014
Portland, OR
Portland Metro Reptile Expo - Holiday Inn Columbia Conference Center
Jan 18-19, 2014
Jacksonville, FL
Repticon Jacksonville - UNF University Center
Jan 25-26, 2014
Mount Pleasant, SC
Repticon Charleston - Omar Shrine Auditorium
Jan 26, 2014
Manchester, NH
New England Reptile Expo - Radisson Hotel Expo Center
Feb 01, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Feb 01-02, 2014
Timonium, MD
Repticon Baltimore - Timonium Fairgrounds
Feb 01-02, 2014
Ennis, TX
Repticon Ennis - Texas MotorPlex
Feb 01-02, 2014
Orlando, FL
Repticon Orlando - Central Florida Fairgrounds
Feb 08-09 2014
Greenville, SC
Repticon Greenville - Greenville Shrine Club
Feb 08-09 2014
Phoenix, AZ
Repticon Phoenix - Arizona State Fairgrounds
Feb 09, 2014
White Plains, NY
NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
Feb 16, 2014
Poughkeepsie, NY
Hudson Valley Reptile Expo - Mid-Hudson Civic Center
Feb 22, 2014
Hamburg, PA
Northwestern Berks Reptile Show - Hamburg Field House
Mar 01, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Mar 08, 2014
Washington, PA
Steel City Reptile Expo - Washington County Fair & Expo Center
Mar 22-23, 2014
Arlington, TX
Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
Apr 05, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Apr 06, 2014
White Plains, NY
NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
Apr 19, 2014
Manchester, NH
New England Reptile Expo - Radisson Hotel Expo Center
Mar 23, 2014
Melville, NY
Long Island Reptile Expo - Huntington Hilton
Apr 26, 2014
Hamburg, PA
Northwestern Berks Reptile Show - Hamburg Field House
May 03, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
May 10, 2014
Washington, PA
Steel City Reptile Expo - Washington County Fair & Expo Center
May 17-18, 2014
Arlington, TX
Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
May 31, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
June 21, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
July 06, 2014
White Plains, NY
NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
July 12-13, 2014
Arlington, TX
Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
July 12-13. 2014
San Diego, CA
Reptile Super Show - San Diego Concourse/ Civic Center
July 19, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Aug 9-10. 2014
Pomona, CA
Reptile Super Show - Pomona Fairplex
Aug 23, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Sept 07, 2014
White Plains, NY
NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
Sept 20, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Oct 04-05, 2014
Arlington, TX
Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
Oct 12, 2014
Manchester, NH
New England Reptile Expo - Radisson Hotel Expo Center
Oct 19, 2014
Melville, NY
Long Island Reptile Expo - Huntington Hilton
Oct 25, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Nov 15, 2014
Columbus, OH
All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
Nov 30, 2014
White Plains, NY
NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center


----------



## Alexmenke92

I'm glad DB is getting lawsuits together...I know some of us including myself were hoping for this early on in the topic, so I'm glad yall are going for it! They need to be shut down.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Hell, they can't even put their phone number on their website anymore.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Alexmenke92 said:


> I'm glad DB is getting lawsuits together...I know some of us including myself were hoping for this early on in the topic, so I'm glad yall are going for it! They need to be shut down.


You're welcome!!
Even if it's petty and vindictive


----------



## InvertaHerp

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Here is a list, I won't link directly to their website for obvious reasons, but it is still there. It was just a bit more hidden.
> 
> Jan 18-19, 2014
> Raleigh, NC
> North Carolina Reptile & Exotic Animal S - State Fairgrounds Scott Building
> Jan 18, 2014
> Portland, OR
> Portland Metro Reptile Expo - Holiday Inn Columbia Conference Center
> Jan 18-19, 2014
> Jacksonville, FL
> Repticon Jacksonville - UNF University Center
> Jan 25-26, 2014
> Mount Pleasant, SC
> Repticon Charleston - Omar Shrine Auditorium
> Jan 26, 2014
> Manchester, NH
> New England Reptile Expo - Radisson Hotel Expo Center
> Feb 01, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Feb 01-02, 2014
> Timonium, MD
> Repticon Baltimore - Timonium Fairgrounds
> Feb 01-02, 2014
> Ennis, TX
> Repticon Ennis - Texas MotorPlex
> Feb 01-02, 2014
> Orlando, FL
> Repticon Orlando - Central Florida Fairgrounds
> Feb 08-09 2014
> Greenville, SC
> Repticon Greenville - Greenville Shrine Club
> Feb 08-09 2014
> Phoenix, AZ
> Repticon Phoenix - Arizona State Fairgrounds
> Feb 09, 2014
> White Plains, NY
> NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
> Feb 16, 2014
> Poughkeepsie, NY
> Hudson Valley Reptile Expo - Mid-Hudson Civic Center
> Feb 22, 2014
> Hamburg, PA
> Northwestern Berks Reptile Show - Hamburg Field House
> Mar 01, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Mar 08, 2014
> Washington, PA
> Steel City Reptile Expo - Washington County Fair & Expo Center
> Mar 22-23, 2014
> Arlington, TX
> Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
> Apr 05, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Apr 06, 2014
> White Plains, NY
> NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
> Apr 19, 2014
> Manchester, NH
> New England Reptile Expo - Radisson Hotel Expo Center
> Mar 23, 2014
> Melville, NY
> Long Island Reptile Expo - Huntington Hilton
> Apr 26, 2014
> Hamburg, PA
> Northwestern Berks Reptile Show - Hamburg Field House
> May 03, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> May 10, 2014
> Washington, PA
> Steel City Reptile Expo - Washington County Fair & Expo Center
> May 17-18, 2014
> Arlington, TX
> Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
> May 31, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> June 21, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> July 06, 2014
> White Plains, NY
> NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
> July 12-13, 2014
> Arlington, TX
> Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
> July 12-13. 2014
> San Diego, CA
> Reptile Super Show - San Diego Concourse/ Civic Center
> July 19, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Aug 9-10. 2014
> Pomona, CA
> Reptile Super Show - Pomona Fairplex
> Aug 23, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Sept 07, 2014
> White Plains, NY
> NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center
> Sept 20, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Oct 04-05, 2014
> Arlington, TX
> Lone Star Reptile Expo - Knights of Columbus Hall
> Oct 12, 2014
> Manchester, NH
> New England Reptile Expo - Radisson Hotel Expo Center
> Oct 19, 2014
> Melville, NY
> Long Island Reptile Expo - Huntington Hilton
> Oct 25, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Nov 15, 2014
> Columbus, OH
> All Ohio Reptile Show - Moose Lodge 11
> Nov 30, 2014
> White Plains, NY
> NY Metro Reptile Expo - Westchester County Center


They are going to all of those shows?


----------



## redfrogger

Most likely not going to vend all ( or even any) of those venues. They are just trying to show vendors that if they bought some of their nonsense frogs they can possibly vend there.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

InvertaHerp said:


> They are going to all of those shows?


No, but they're trying to get vendors from those shows to sell their frogs at those shows. You can find those shows web sites, find the vendor lists, and look through for vendors that might be likely to consider selling DFWs garbage and contact them. You can contact the shows directly. At least one of the shows listed, I've seen their DB account actively reading this thread. 

We ARE getting to people.


----------



## Dane

InvertaHerp said:


> They are going to all of those shows?


Several of those shows have overlapping dates, in very different parts of the country. There's no way that they have the free capital to make that happen. Just the vendor fees to prepay for that many shows would likely cost more than $20K.
Even LLL reptile, one of the biggest reptile/supply retailers in the country doesn't do anywhere near that number of events.
Edit: Just saw Doug's post. My mistake.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Probably Heaths frog farm, I will email them. And hopefully attend the long island show to make sure no one buys.


----------



## grendel88

Litigation is incredibly expensive and time consuming. I seriously doubt anyone on this forum has the time to be a point man for a lawsuit. Not to mention the financial burden would be incredible upfront. I think that the best we collectively can expect (hope for?) is that people who buy their stuff or even browse their website will do a little more research online and stumble across this thread. That being said, using as many keywords as possible will allow this thread to be ever more present.

(US Dart Frog, Dart Frog Warehouse, Wascher, Dillon, Rick, Signature Dart frogs, SAFE, Sunkist) 

BTW...Hi, my name is Jay and I sold frogs to DFW. Their "Sunkist" line of dart frogs were sold by me. They are green legged bicolors that originated from Sean Stewart. I now feel like I have had a weight lifted off my shoulders. The first step to recovery.

Did anyone notice the "Toffee" line of dart frogs. I thought that was cute. You have to give them credit for that at least. Its tough to think up a bunch of these BS names. Someone over there reads a lot.


----------



## Dendro Dave

edwardsatc said:


> All this talk of lawsuits makes us look petty and vindictive ... and, in my opinion, it is just that (petty and vindictive). That's not to say that some of the comments made here by myself and others are not petty and sometimes a bit vindictive, but talk of lawsuits is just over the top for me.
> 
> Many (most?) of us here don't like what these people are up to or the potential implications for the hobby. Their marketing schemes are what most of us would consider unethical. Their trademarks are silly. Their opinions are often preposterous. Their knowledge and understanding of basic scientific principles are lacking (at best). They seem to prey on those with no previous knowledge of dart frog care and husbandry. Their grammar and spelling is incredibly atrocious. Heck there's 120+ pages of mostly legit criticism in this thread ...
> 
> I've participated heavily in this thread, been highly outspoken, and don't want to see this business succeed anymore than others here, but this talk of lawsuits is unfounded, counterproductive, and just sad ...
> 
> So with that, this is where I'll bow out of this thread.





Charlie Q said:


> I'm sorry, i just feel like everyone is sitting here complaining about them, and nobody is doing anything. I tend to think that if you aren't actually going to DO something about what is bothering you, then don't complain about it.
> 
> But I don't actually have anything to lose from their business succeeding, so really it is just their awful business practices that are pissing me off.
> 
> If nobody wants a lawsuit, that's no problem. it does't really effect me at all, personally. it just kind of dumb that there are 1000 people complaining and the only person who has done anything is Enlightened Rogue.



Well as usual I'm kinda in the middle...

I think Donn makes a good point that at times "we" (including myself), may have gone a bit far and come off as petty/vindictive. I think the lawsuit talk is a little much, but if there are grounds and someone is willing to do it... I'm not going to stand in the way. I don't think at this time though I can be an active participant in that.

I very much hope Donn reconsiders and at least pokes his head into this thread from time to time and makes some comments, because he's made a lot of good ones and raised a lot of valid points. I hope he continues to do that.

I also totally get what Charlie is saying, but I think this thread is doing something. Plus most of us are boycotting them and spreading the word to others not on the forums much. My guess is they hope we all forget about them and that is the worst thing we could do.

So let's just try to remember who the enemy is


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok listen, I agree with what everyone is saying about the lawsuits.
So shoot me, I had nothing better to do that day.
As far as me being petty and vindictive, that's cool I`m a big boy I can take it.
Donn`s a gentleman who worked his tail off here and I respect everything he has to say.

That being said, I got into their heads the other day and got them seriously
paying attention to this thread.
For me, well, that was worth the price of admission right there.


----------



## dart666

is there a current link to there site? Crazy this thread is still up!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

dart666 said:


> is there a current link to there site? Crazy this thread is still up!


Safe Dart Frogs.com

Tell em John sent ya


----------



## dart666

oh gawd there a bunch of Christians! Figures they would want to also capitalize on dart frogs as well, I'm shocked to see its not "non-profit"


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Well that didn't take long. 



> As a company, our guarantee of quality, commitment to the best care, the diversity of our in-stock inventory, our numerous industry innovations, and true family commitment to customer service, is proof we love these frogs. Each and every frog we sell is the offspring of captive bred parent stock of the highest quality we obtained from the best breeders in the industry, and we dearly thank them.


Yes, you thank us by not listening and completely disregarding the concerns of the very hobbyists who helped you get to this point. Can you think of anyone else in history who helped others and was thanked by being stabbed in the back?

Also, they've made no industry innovations whatsoever. All, and mean everything they've done and do has been done before. They got the ideas from the hobby and claim them for their own. FlyDOH? Seen that before under a different name, methyl paraben free media? Nothing new. short cycle fruit fly cultures in bags. Been there, done that.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

To whose who would say were doing nothing here with this thread



> Our quality has distinguised roots tracing back to some of them most revered frog lines and lineages, breeders and hobbyists, the hobby has ever known. We thanked them then, now, and forever, and with a bunch of breeding and frog rearing skill of our own, we have some amazing frogs for you!


This very thread has forced them to change their story yet again. Before they've claimed zero hobby affiliation, tried to completely distance themselves from us, etc. Of course, since we have proof that they lied about this, they've had to change their website to acknowledge the contributions of the hobby to their business.


----------



## Charlie Q

That is awesome!


----------



## Alexmenke92

Have you guys seen all the hobby this, hobby that on the frog match page? I mean, good lord. Take a look if you haven't. 


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


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## Alexmenke92

"We simply want to join [the hobbyists]." Oh is that so?


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## Charlie Q

yeah, and "fabuluopus" is at least the most entertaining spelling of Fabulous i've ever seen.


----------



## Alexmenke92

"WE THANK ALL OF THE FROG SELLERS WHOP GOT UIS GOING, THEY ARE AMAZING, FRIST RATE AND TOP NOTCH!! WE LOVE YOU!"

I'm sorry - I'll stop posting now...I think y'all get the point. 


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


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## ZookeeperDoug

> how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair.


*THIS* is why you should have sent your "genius" son to college... A course in genetics would have served him well. Of course, most high school seniors could probably explain the basic concepts to you.


----------



## FroggyKnight

ZookeeperDoug said:


> *THIS* is why you should have sent your "genius" son to college... A course in genetics would have served him well. Of course, most high school seniors could probably explain the basic concepts to you.


Heck, I've had a pretty good grasp on that stuff since 7th grade (no joke). It becomes relatively simple as long as your willing to take the time to learn the concept. These people are not willing to take the time they need before jumping to illogical conclusions. 

John

Edit: Who in the world is writing their website??? Many of the spelling errors almost seem to be childish (if you know what I mean). I really hope it isn't Dillon writing this all up, his good grades and test scores definitely do not reflect in his work if it is...


----------



## Pubfiction

Dane said:


> Several of those shows have overlapping dates, in very different parts of the country. There's no way that they have the free capital to make that happen. Just the vendor fees to prepay for that many shows would likely cost more than $20K.
> Even LLL reptile, one of the biggest reptile/supply retailers in the country doesn't do anywhere near that number of events.
> Edit: Just saw Doug's post. My mistake.


Who says they need it, many people who do various types of shows setup some system where they put most of the risk on another person. So they get someone else to sort of run a franchise for them. DFW provides the frogs and supplies and the other person buys or makes commission on supplies and frogs but pays for the show fees themselves.

People are doing this exact system in reptile shows, art and craft and orchid shows you have probably attended.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

So what they are doing is reading this thread and taking the information WE are providing and using it for themselves.

You would think a lawyer and a genius could think for themselves.
Rick, why don`t you leave the thinking up to us and do what you do best....


----------



## Alexmenke92

Charlie Q said:


> yeah, and "fabuluopus" is at least the most entertaining spelling of Fabulous i've ever seen.


I can't even say this word albeit trying three or so times.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Alexmenke92 said:


> I can't even say this word albeit trying three or so times.


Have you tried using it in a sentence?

"Jesus' hair was fabuluopus!"

Hell, I had to type that four times to get autocorrect not to fix it and it still has a giant red line under it.....


----------



## JayMillz

I recently tried to inquire about some information before deciding to make a purchase from DFW. I talked with Rick through emails and he came off as very arrogant, unprofessional, and rude. All I had requested was to see pictures of how the frogs are raised in order to make sure I was going to be buying frogs that were raised in a healthy & clean environment and weren't being raised in a "puppy mill" fashion (a normal request in this industry I imagine). This request was not met after several attempts. There was also no discussion about testing for diseases. I noticed many other companies update their social pages with current pictures on a regular basis and some even have videos of how they care for all of their animals on YouTube. I was told by Rick that they didn't want to "reveal their secrets" and to take my business elsewhere. That's exactly what I plan on doing. I have never and will never make a purchase from this company based on their crappy attitudes and the way they make it seem like they have something to hide.


----------



## Judy S

would some sort of "restraining order" do or mean anything??? So when I go to Repticon here in Maryland this weekend....how would I know what if any vendor would be selling their frogs???


----------



## JPccusa

JayMillz said:


> ... their crappy attitudes and the way they make it seem like they have something to hide.


If those were their only problems...


----------



## JayMillz

JPccusa said:


> If those were their only problems...


I didn't realize you had to close the thread about 2000 frogs for sale. Sorry about that JP. I hope Dillon will choose to reactivate his account and make things right for his company.


----------



## InvertaHerp

I suggested in an email that they do that....no response yet.


----------



## carola1155

Alright everyone... we have been letting this run quite a bit but...

*This is a formal reminder that you need to obey the User Agreement.*



> Each DB member is strictly forbidden from posting, writing, displaying, discussing or causing to be posted, written, displayed, or discussed any abusive, obscene, vulgar, *hateful, libelous, threatening*, or sexually-oriented material or, further, any other material that may violate any applicable law.


This is the one and only warning regarding this stuff. Please keep it clean. We (obviously) dont want to close this thread but we will if we have to.

Thank you,


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

JayMillz said:


> I recently tried to inquire about some information before deciding to make a purchase from DFW. I talked with Rick through emails and he came off as very arrogant, unprofessional, and rude. All I had requested was to see pictures of how the frogs are raised in order to make sure I was going to be buying frogs that were raised in a healthy & clean environment and weren't being raised in a "puppy mill" fashion (a normal request in this industry I imagine). This request was not met after several attempts. There was also no discussion about testing for diseases. I noticed many other companies update their social pages with current pictures on a regular basis and some even have videos of how they care for all of their animals on YouTube. I was told by Rick that they didn't want to "reveal their secrets" and to take my business elsewhere. That's exactly what I plan on doing. I have never and will never make a purchase from this company based on their crappy attitudes and the way they make it seem like they have something to hide.



What secrets? They're not doing anything special. Face it, they're raising tincs and Auratus and luecs. Just about anyone can do that with their eyes closed. It doesn't take any kind of genius. There are only a handful of morphs within those species that are even remotely considered difficult to breed and they're not working with any of them.

What it really sounds like is paranoia, further evidence that this thread is having and effect on their business. They have to be suspicious of every buyer, every customer, every wholesaler.

That and they don't want you to see that all they're doing is mass raising a bunch of easy to breed frogs in small tanks full of pothos and "North American leaves" and "home depo can lights". If they didn't have something to hide they'd be happily sharing pictures. They don't want us to see that for all their fancy talk, that they're really not doing anything special. They can't even invite anyone to their facility now because they can differentiate US from prospective clients. 

Hey Rick/Dillion, you absolutely 100% sure your frogs are SAFE and healthy? You better be because soon, someone is going purchase some frogs from you and have them tested and publish the results. Will those results come back clean?

Who is ready to do a side by side comparison of PlayDOH vs some other hobby media available from RESPECTED sponsors?


----------



## carola1155

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Who is ready to do a side by side comparison of PlayDOH vs some other hobby media available from RESPECTED sponsors?


I thought about doing that... but that requires giving them my money for their product... which will never happen. I don't think anyone should bother with it.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Who would buy frogs though? Nobody here wants to give them their money. I know I don't!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

carola1155 said:


> I thought about doing that... but that requires giving them my money for their product... which will never happen. I don't think anyone should bother with it.


Agreed, but to that extent, it is a tiny amount of money for a very low profit margin item. If anything it's probably a loss leader for them. You've gotta make media available to people can culture flies and at least with FF media, you either sell it or send them to sponsors who also sell frogs and risk your customers discovering that their are better, reputable companies out there that sell better quality frogs and everything else you need.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

InvertaHerp said:


> Who would buy frogs though? Nobody here wants to give them their money. I know I don't!


Agreed, but at the same time, you may have to break some eggs to make an omelette. If the end result exposes something, it's a small price to pay. Of course you're taking a risk too, the frogs might come back clean. And in the end you're stuck with frogs from them that Nobody wants and risk compromising your collection.


----------



## InvertaHerp

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Agreed, but at the same time, you may have to break some eggs to make an omelette. If the end result exposes something, it's a small price to pay. Of course you're taking a risk too, the frogs might come back clean. And in the end you're stuck with frogs from them that Nobody wants and risk compromising your collection.


Euthanasia? Although we also do know that their frogs came from good lines before they were SAFEIFIED(TM)


----------



## JayMillz

InvertaHerp said:


> Who would buy frogs though? Nobody here wants to give them their money. I know I don't!


It's hard to give them money or leave feedback when you can't even discuss a sale with them in a professional way. I didn't ask them anything absurd or out of the ordinary to raise any kinds of suspicions. I just simply wanted to see some pictures before deciding if I wanted to buy frogs from them or from somebody else is all. Perhaps more of the members here can send them inquiries and chime in on what their experiences were like while communicating with Rick. My opinion is that he feels like he has something to hide. I wish Dillon was allowed to speak for himself since this is/(was?) his thing.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

InvertaHerp said:


> I suggested in an email that they do that....no response yet.


You probably won't get one if they know
you're a member here. They told me don't
bother sending any more e-mails, they were
blocking mine.
It was worth it


----------



## Ed

carola1155 said:


> I thought about doing that... but that requires giving them my money for their product... which will never happen. I don't think anyone should bother with it.


Keep in mind that produced biomass doesn't mean that the flies are quality flies. That would require a signficant outlay of cash and flies (once when I asked a exotic animal nutritionist about it, she said, ideally it would take about 500 grams of flies and several thousand dollars...). 

For a serious comparison you would need to rigidly control the conditions in the fly cultures and be able to compare dry matter before and dry matter after the flies were cultured (would also need to be corrected for mite biomass..). 

The best thing to do would be to compare the ingredients list with a high quality media... If they do not have a list of ingredients on their "proprietary" ingredients then that is simply another liability risk they are taking as allergic or other reaction to the media may put them at risk of a lawsuit. They should need to supply a MSDS for the fly media they sell..... or provide proof that OSHA exempts them from having to prepare a MSDS due to say dilution

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

carola1155 said:


> Alright everyone... we have been letting this run quite a bit but...
> 
> *This is a formal reminder that you need to obey the User Agreement.*
> 
> 
> 
> This is the one and only warning regarding this stuff. Please keep it clean. We (obviously) dont want to close this thread but we will if we have to.
> 
> Thank you,



To build on this a little, Donn has done a lot of great work pointing out their errors in their claims and other issues but when the rhetoric shifts towards bashing them and making negative comments on their beliefs, you are ruining the credible portions of the thread. The same can be said about trying to file legal action just to try and stop their attempts to market and sell their frogs (yes, even though they are using highly questionable practices to do so). As I noted many posts before now, the best thing is to stick to the facts. 
Pointing out bad information and misspelling is fine and should be encouraged... but the other stuff should really be left out if you want this thread to be a reasonable commentary on why people should not purchase frogs from them. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## carola1155

^^ exactly ^^


----------



## bsr8129

Ed said:


> Keep in mind that produced biomass doesn't mean that the flies are quality flies. That would require a signficant outlay of cash and flies (once when I asked a exotic animal nutritionist about it, she said, ideally it would take about 500 grams of flies and several thousand dollars...).
> 
> For a serious comparison you would need to rigidly control the conditions in the fly cultures and be able to compare dry matter before and dry matter after the flies were cultured (would also need to be corrected for mite biomass..).
> 
> The best thing to do would be to compare the ingredients list with a high quality media... If they do not have a list of ingredients on their "proprietary" ingredients then that is simply another liability risk they are taking as allergic or other reaction to the media may put them at risk of a lawsuit. They should need to supply a MSDS for the fly media they sell..... or provide proof that OSHA exempts them from having to prepare a MSDS due to say dilution
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



Why would they provide a MSDS (now called SDS) for basically a food product? SDS is required only for chemicals. I don’t believe any other vendor of Fly media, which none share the ingredients provide a SDS.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Enlightened Rogue said:


> You probably won't get one if they know
> you're a member here. They told me don't
> bother sending any more e-mails, they were
> blocking mine.
> It was worth it


I don't know if they do or don't.


----------



## JayMillz

I don't see how they would unless your email address was something like "[email protected]"


----------



## markpulawski

This is all about keeping the warning flag flying, hopefully anyone considering a purchase will read some of this at least and influence them to buy from a reputable company. Anyone wanting to get in this hobby would never be able to do much of anything with frogs acquired from DFW....hopefully everyone would realize giving them ANY money would be a giant mistake, buy from a reputable source....there are so many of those it would be impossible not to easily find one.


----------



## Charlie Q

Ok, then in order to educate the newcomers to the hobby, would it be appropriate to sticky a "do not purchase from" list of dart frog suppliers? that way people can see DFC and DFW and know that they are not recommended places to deal with.


----------



## bsr8129

Can't be done. It was discussed before.


----------



## bsr8129

markpulawski said:


> This is all about keeping the warning flag flying, hopefully anyone considering a purchase will read some of this at least and influence them to buy from a reputable company. Anyone wanting to get in this hobby would never be able to do much of anything with frogs acquired from DFW....hopefully everyone would realize giving them ANY money would be a giant mistake, buy from a reputable source....there are so many of those it would be impossible not to easily find one.


I really don't understand this statement. How would the frogs be worth nothing? The frogs are still currently pure frogs not hybrids and any offspring from them the line wouldn't be DFW as they are not a line as some have already indicated what line DFW frogs are. Or Is this just dogma to get any newbies to think that buying frogs from them will make thier frogs worthless.


----------



## BrainBug

Is Dart Frog Warehouse giving out those lines with the frogs they sell? I'm sure most newcomers wouldn't think to ask and thus if they ever try to sell offspring they will either have to dig for the line (and who knows if DFW is mixing lines) or label them as coming from DFW, theoretically devaluing them.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

bsr8129 said:


> I really don't understand this statement. How would the frogs be worth nothing? The frogs are still currently pure frogs not hybrids and any offspring from them the line wouldn't be DFW as they are not a line as some have already indicated what line DFW frogs are. Or Is this just dogma to get any newbies to think that buying frogs from them will make thier frogs worthless.


How do you know the frogs they're selling are pure? Because they say so? And they can be trusted? I know I sure as hell wouldn't believe anything they say. They have absolutely no trustworthiness whatsoever. Even if they're not hybrids, who knows WHAT they are.


----------



## JayMillz

bsr8129 said:


> I really don't understand this statement. How would the frogs be worth nothing? The frogs are still currently pure frogs not hybrids and any offspring from them the line wouldn't be DFW as they are not a line as some have already indicated what line DFW frogs are. Or Is this just dogma to get any newbies to think that buying frogs from them will make thier frogs worthless.


To me, frogs that have been taken care of by someone with several years of experience, that tests their frogs regularly and can provide proof if needed, and has devoted countless hours into the care of their collection as a genuine passion are worth more than someone who has a few kids in the house managing "thousands" of frogs and can't even provide pictures of what they are doing. I'll "pay" for that peace of mind instead of unnecessarily risking my collection to contamination by purchasing frogs that have more unknowns to them to save a couple of dollars. The frogs are worth whatever someone is willing to pay. And some frogs are "worthless" in the sense that I wouldn't take them into my collection, even if they were free. Some people can't sell me their frogs. I was trying to get some highland bronze a few months ago and the only person at the time who responded to me was someone from DFC and it was a no brainer, I passed on that offer instantly and got some different auratus from someone I trusted.


----------



## FroggyKnight

DFW appears to be breeding for specific traits within each morph. To me, this devalues the frog and limits the size of our already small gene pool. 

Charlie: Sadly, it is impossible to make a public blacklist of people to avoid. It would violate the user agreement... The best thing we can do at the moment is to keep this thread alive and to warn others about DFW.

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

BrainBug said:


> Is Dart Frog Warehouse giving out those lines with the frogs they sell? I'm sure most newcomers wouldn't think to ask and thus if they ever try to sell offspring they will either have to dig for the line (and who knows if DFW is mixing lines) or label them as coming from DFW, theoretically devaluing them.


They are mixing lines. They've said so themself. You'll have to dig back through this thread yo find it or I'll have to dig thru some screen caps to prove it. Of course when called out on it, they changed the wording on their website.


----------



## Wings

No point in trying for a law suit. I've seen criminal prosecutions with hard evidence fall through the cracks. Your money would be better spent setting up a booth at trade shows "informing" people of companies to look out for that have "excellent" services for the dart frog hobby, or buying a tent to house some people for a collective "gathering" by their headquarters to discuss "how great their product is". Maybe even buying up domain names related to theirs and posting informative links etc.

With as small as the dart frog hobby is, and as little information is readily available without going to a forum, chances are time will be the best deterrent for this to just go away. My analogy is that its more or less buying a pet from a chain Petshop A or similar. Anyone with an IQ higher than their shoe size knows that animal came from some mill. The only difference being chain Petshop A isn't trying to undercut many other vendors and rename a Terrier a Fluffball.

Not to mention the fact that IF they are going to trade shows, how many other vendors will notice what they are doing? Could you imagine a reputable breeder having to be set up next to them? lol...

I think in time, overhead and other costs will become a very hefty weight above their head(s?). Anyone have any idea on what the upkeep costs on 2000 frogs are? Moreso, banks are NOT lending money out, even to people with excellent credit and a decent liquid asset base for business purposes, especially if said business needs financial support to continue a failing business.

I remember one certain individual I almost bought frogs from that was doing a similar thing with their names and had a shady story to lineage. He/she fell off the map in the hobby pretty quickly and probably just lurking waiting for a newb like me to come along and want fancy frog B.

I think this is opening up good opportunities for reputable breeders to really stand out, and on the downside will more than likely end up causing a lot more scrutiny on inter-hobbyist trading and buying/selling. If I didn't recognize your name before now, and I see you selling frogs that DFW is selling, chances are I am going to avoid you like the plague unless I can call the originating breeder up and get proof you bought said frog from them, and for that trouble, I might as well buy from the breeder for peace of mind (which previously wasn't in the hobby due to the high standards everyone here has). Maybe breeders will start sending certificates of authenticity with their frogs 

I stick to the wise man's saying of... "You get what you pay for"


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> They are mixing lines. They've said so themself. You'll have to dig back through this thread yo find it or I'll have to dig thru some screen caps to prove it. Of course when called out on it, they changed the wording on their website.


Yep, and at one point they also said *"we do not mix species and varieties"*, which I took to mean morphs and/or locales since other then species that's all there is. That was in contradiction to their earlier statements. I had hoped we finally got the message across, but now that appears to be gone, or at the very least I can't find it. Maybe I'm looking on the wrong website though * If anyone can find that statement please link to it. *

Bottom line...

As often as they change the content on their websites, contradict themselves, embellish, or exaggerate... You can't trust anything they say. 

Oh this has probably been brought up before but I think I missed it..

*"While some are more shy than others, as per the species, over time all of our dart frog adults will become a colorful companion. In captivity they learn to depend on you, their care giver and owner, and bond with you on sight."*

From my perspective that constitutes a bold faced lie. In my experience, at most they will come to associate you with food and maybe come out in the hopes of getting some flies when you open the tank, but I'm aware of zero evidence that they "bond" with humans.

Also I'd like to see some evidence they've done any of this...
*"As part of who we are, not merely what we do, we provide seminars, special exhibits, presentations, field trips for students, and many other educational programs to champion rain forest and frog conservation."*

Without some evidence this is just another unsubstantiated claim by them.


----------



## bsr8129

BrainBug said:


> Is Dart Frog Warehouse giving out those lines with the frogs they sell? I'm sure most newcomers wouldn't think to ask and thus if they ever try to sell offspring they will either have to dig for the line (and who knows if DFW is mixing lines) or label them as coming from DFW, theoretically devaluing them.


Is any of the big commercial breeders doing this? I'm not talking about hobbiest the full buisness selling frogs.


----------



## bsr8129

JayMillz said:


> To me, frogs that have been taken care of by someone with several years of experience, that tests their frogs regularly and can provide proof if needed, and has devoted countless hours into the care of their collection as a genuine passion are worth more than someone who has a few kids in the house managing "thousands" of frogs and can't even provide pictures of what they are doing. I'll "pay" for that peace of mind instead of unnecessarily risking my collection to contamination by purchasing frogs that have more unknowns to them to save a couple of dollars. The frogs are worth whatever someone is willing to pay. And some frogs are "worthless" in the sense that I wouldn't take them into my collection, even if they were free. Some people can't sell me their frogs. I was trying to get some highland bronze a few months ago and the only person at the time who responded to me was someone from DFC and it was a no brainer, I passed on that offer instantly and got some different auratus from someone I trusted.


I'm not talking about buying directly from DFW I'm talking about Joe Schmo who buys them raises them up and sells thier off spring. 

Plus there are some respected members here that sell frogs that test positive for ranis but nothing is ever said but a thread on it not naming names.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

bsr8129 said:


> Is any of the big commercial breeders doing this? I'm not talking about hobbiest the full buisness selling frogs.


Yes. Actually, all of the big commercial breeders I've dealt with have been able, happy, and willing to provide line information on the frogs they sell.


----------



## Dendro Dave

bsr8129 said:


> Is any of the big commercial breeders doing this? I'm not talking about hobbiest the full buisness selling frogs.


Generally you have to ask unless it is an ad on the forums. I personally wish that the commercial breeders would do that though, but since they don't I won't hold dfw/usadartfrog (whatever they call themselves now) accountable for not listing the lines on the site. There is plenty of other crap coming from them to hold them accountable for, or to question/criticize for legit reasons.



bsr8129 said:


> I'm not talking about buying directly from DFW I'm talking about Joe Schmo who buys them raises them up and sells thier off spring.
> 
> Plus there are some respected members here that sell frogs that test positive for ranis but nothing is ever said but a thread on it not naming names.


Personally while it is legitimate to question them about the health of their frogs and their husbandry practices, I haven't seen much evidence to suggest that their frogs are less healthy then anyone else's. So I don't think we should focus on that. It's basically their questionable business practices, marketing ploys, dishonesty and/or double talk and the fact that they've shown a desire to create designer darts which most of the hobby is against that has me PO'd.

Like this claim...
*"...every frog and tadpole we sell is completely and totally harmless, perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, NOT poisonous, absolutely beautiful, and fun! Our SAFE brand is our guarantee...",* 

First unless you test every single frog and tad you can't reasonably claim all are healthy. I believe Ed or someone already pointed out that some things like coccidia are pretty common in collections, and while often not a huge issue it also isn't the same as 100% healthy. Then there is the "100% non toxic" claim, and people have pointed out that frogs still create/produce toxic peptides.

To me the "SAFE" trademark and claim is kinda misleading, or just impossible to actually guarantee, and demonstrates a willingness to at best stretch the truth. Other distasteful marketing ploys like directing their marketing to the most naive/new dart enthusiasts with only minimal education, telling people the forums are "BS", and their "screw the hobby community" attitude all IMO make them public enemy #1, especially if they go forward with their designer dart plans on such a large commercial scale. That really could potentially screw up our hobby big time.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

bsr8129 said:


> Plus there are some respected members here that sell frogs that test positive for ranis but nothing is ever said but a thread on it not naming names.


You should look more carefully.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Yes, let's have some fun shall we???
> 
> Waschers, I sold you an adult breeding pair of D. tinctorius Cobalt...not Aurora, you even called them Cobalts in your vendor feedback http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/736833-post4.html
> So where did the made up, pretend name of Aurora come from?
> Do you know where those Cobalts came from? Are you disclosing what line they are? They came from Josh's frogs! HAHAHAHAHAHA You're selling Josh's Frogs line of Cobalts and you're making up your own fake name for them. They aren't Auroras, they're Cobalts!!!
> 
> I sold you a pair of D. tinctorius Inferalanis, not Alanis Eclipse, another one of your silly, fake names. Any idea where they came from originally? I know the answer is no because all you care about is making up fake names. The came from Rainforest Station originally.
> 
> I sold you some P. vittatus. NOT Neon, the fake name you invented.
> Any idea of the original line???? Oh no? They came from Florian Farms. Pssst. They are P. vittatus, not Neon!!
> 
> I sold you D. auratus El Cope, now strangely enough you are actually selling them as El Cope. Why is that? If you insist that all the frogs are the same and they interbreed in the wild and in captivity and they are all the same frogs all mixed up then why continue with the locale specific name on this particular frog? Contradicting yourself yet again?? Oh by the way, those El Cope are UE line originally.
> 
> You can bet I'll include this little line in all of my subsequent frog ads. "Why by made up frogs at DFW when you can get siblings of their original breeding stock directly from me. Except these are tried and true, established, and correctly name species/morphs. Not fake names expressly invented for the purpose of marketing by duping new hobbyists that aren't educated in every aspect of common morph names."


Ya know, I`m trying hard to back off from this thread a bit for my own sanity ( I really am Tom) but.... Jon if you send this post to them I`ll jump on the first plane down there and buy you and you`re better half the best damn dinner you ever had.
I`m actually thinking about heading down that way in April for a little Griswold family vacation


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ya know, I`m trying hard to back off from this thread a bit for my own sanity ( I really am Tom) but.... Jon if you send this post to them I`ll jump on the first plane down there and buy you and you`re better half the best damn dinner you ever had.
> I`m actually thinking about heading down that way in April for a little Griswold family vacation


No need. It is obvious they read this thread regularly so I'm sure they've seen it.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Bump this thread guys, we have to keep it up on the homepage!


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

ZookeeperDoug said:


> This is great, but I was think a bit more creatively and outside the box. Isn't their some information about these frogs that you sold them that you've been holding back.


Yeah Doug, I only sold them the superior frogs and told them to make up some fake names to cover it up. I kept all the inferior siblings for myself. Lol. Tongue in cheek buddy


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ya know, I`m trying hard to back off from this thread a bit for my own sanity ( I really am Tom) but.... Jon if you send this post to them I`ll jump on the first plane down there and buy you and you`re better half the best damn dinner you ever had.
> I`m actually thinking about heading down that way in April for a little Griswold family vacation


C'mon on down buddy!! Spring training starts soon and we've got the Red Sox and the Twins right here in town 10 minutes from me.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I`m actually thinking about heading down that way in April for a little Griswold family vacation


In the family truckster of coarse.
"you think you hate it now, wait till you drive it home"


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

InvertaHerp said:


> Bump this thread guys, we have to keep it up on the homepage!


Hey listen, it you can add anything that
hasn't been said 500 times before knock
yourself out.
For me it's become old and tiresome. I know
who to do business with and who to stay
away from.
Now I think I'll join my friend Donn


----------



## carola1155

Yes, lets please keep posts as informative/relevant as possible. Unnecessary "bump" posts are just going to be deleted going forward.

Thank you.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> We started out as hobbyists, but questioned the need for "rules" and yet we still regard many in the hobby as our friends when it comes to frogs! Anyone that sucks the fun out of owning these frogs is not supportive of the hobby.


Glad were sucking the fun out of it for YOU! The reality is we know were protecting the hobby from you. If you'ld listened and not been combative in the first place, you might have stood a chance.

And I'm pretty confident I can say not a single person in the hobby would claim you as a friend.

You know as well as anyone that you're public enemy number one.


Also, FWIW, it was posted elsewhere, but it doesn't seem as we correctly assumed, that they have any show presence. They're simply selling frogs to anyone willing to flip them. Ironically, it's a trend they condem.... But I guess it's ok so long as you buy frogs from them to resell.


----------



## joshbaker14t

Their site is getting worse every time I check it out. The fly doh is no longer. Now its gold medal or something. 
Whereas they used to have cheap prices, all of their frog prices are now age based. No longer Q1-4, but by month.. Anywho, the prices are almost outrageous. Some rather available morphs are anywhere from 150-200 for 10-12 months old. Im pretty confident they are self destructing at this point.
I was at one point worried by their sites ease and low prices, not anymore. It is not user friendly at all. 
However they are the only one with faded blue jeans tinks...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Why do I do this to myself....I swear I tried I just can`t look away

Mesomorph Leucomelas and low to the ground Auratus with strong "fron" limbs?

US Dart Frog - Leucomelas Signature & Others Series


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

joshbaker14t said:


> The fly doh is no longer. Now its gold medal or something.
> ...


Ok, do I have to make a call to Gold Medal Flour now?


----------



## grendel88

I wonder what kind of "tests" they ran to determine their new media produces larger dart frogs. Was it just scanning over the ones they have and saying "Yeah, I think those are bigger than all the others produced across the country..."?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

joshbaker14t said:


> However they are the only one with faded blue jeans tinks...


Oh my God, I thought you were joking.. they really do!!!!


----------



## mho

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Why do I do this to myself....I swear I tried I just can`t look away
> 
> Mesomorph Leucomelas and low to the ground Auratus with strong "fron" limbs?
> 
> US Dart Frog - Leucomelas Signature & Others Series


Thanks, now you have me reading the website again. Hopefully they are reading this thread. Now fix these spelling errors, it's driving me nuts...

"Now you can get a choice too. We do this as a business, and we hope everyone who wants to become a breeder of these frogs becomes their own business. THIS IS THE COOLEST pet and we hope everyone owns one!! WE THANK ALL OF THE FROG SELLERS WHOP GOT UIS GOING, THEY ARE AMAZING, FRIST RATE AND TOP NOTCH!! WE LOVE YOU! Consider, if the number of frogs in homes as pets triples, those homes create a demand for three times the stuff for their frogs. Does anybody think the seller of stuff cares what the person is doing with their frogs? We all want the same thing, the frogs being the center of attention not people!"


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Quick get em while they`re hot...

Lunar Blue Tinctorius Black and Powder Blue Bubble Legs for only $200.00
OR
Denim Tinctorius Faded Blue Jeans Legs Patricia`s for up to $250.00

Now lets be fair, they did get the spelling right.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Random thought:

They really wasted all that money to register trademarks nobody else is ever going to want to even remotely be associated with?


----------



## InvertaHerp

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Quick get em while they`re hot...
> 
> Lunar Blue Tinctorius Black and Powder Blue Bubble Legs for only $200.00
> OR
> Denim Tinctorius Faded Blue Jeans Legs Patricia`s for up to $250.00
> 
> Now lets be fair, they did get the spelling right.


I doubt I'm the only one thinking this, but it seems to me like these weird names containing multiple traits may be the first wave of hybrids for sale......


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I can see it now in the Frog Classified`s

Sellers Name: Johnny Bag O Doughnuts
Species: Mesomorph Luecs, Low to the Ground Auratus and Denim Faded Blue Jean Tincs
Line/Origin: Wachers aka Addams Family
Code: you`re joking right?
Age: Q-4=3+2-7oow
Shipping:Arrive2Thrive- Shipping to the Sahara Desert in July not a problem


----------



## Charlie Q

on their homepage:



> Raise Chinchillas (dart frogs) for fun and profit!



It has no context. why even bring up Chinchillas? they are a different animal.


----------



## Charlie Q

The only thing i could find in a google search dropping the (dart frogs) was this:

Chinchilla Farming for Fun and Profit! | Awful Library Books

haha, kindof sick.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Charlie Q said:


> on their homepage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It has no context. why even bring up Chinchillas? they are a different animal.


What the hell does that mean? Chinchillas?

You`re not helping me any Charlie


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Now that I think about it, Gremlins are much easier to care for than Chinchillas


----------



## mho

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Now that I think about it, Gremlins are much easier to care for than Chinchillas


Just keep the water away... from the Gremlins


----------



## epiphytes etc.

Could a mod maybe move this thread from regional to general discussion?


----------



## joshbaker14t

Even better...the lounge

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


----------



## Bcs TX

joshbaker14t said:


> Even better...the lounge
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk


General is better, shows New posts.


----------



## carola1155

We've had this discussion on our end already. There is plenty of non-dartfrog related discussion in this thread. That is why we have left it in the regional to this point. 

*It is staying here.*

Also, in the future (not with this thread) please contact one of us directly or report a post if you think it should be somewhere else. Posting it in the thread may not get it noticed right away and you guys could be having a conversation with yourselves for a while.


----------



## edwardsatc

Oh brother ...



safedartfrogs.com website said:


> BEWARE of frog sellers that advise not (translated cannot), sex any of their frogs until full maturity. In fact, if they cannot sex a significant portion of their frogs early we recommend buying from someone else like us. Why? The ability to distinguish male and female traits early is indicative of quality. The pairs we sell at 8+ months are sexed and some of the absolute best paired frog values on the planet! Think about it! Our pairs are sexed, and yes some are as young as 6 months old for tincs, and we sell many of them as our Signature series. Some of our auratus are sexable at 7-9 months and we keep most of them too.
> 
> It is a huge advantage to sex frogs early, because the ability to do so indicates a more advanced frog, both from a quality perspective and breeder value! Our frogs are bigger and sex determinable early! If you know the parent stock, like cheat code for a video game, this will help you sex them but not the truest way. Still, no matter what, if you load your frogs with methylparaben (MP) from flies fed on, and gut loaded with, MP based media, then you may never know the sex from a visual determination and breeding production wil be low. Talk about harm & liability,..."known or should have known"...the MP injury to so many frogs. Very sad!!! We have never sold MP based media products, and never will! We have never fed the frogs we sell any fruit flies raised on MP based media, and never will!


----------



## FroggyKnight

And thats why I can't even check their site anymore. The things they say drive me crazy. 

When this thread started I saw some misguided thoughts and a crappy marketing plan, but still a savable company. Now, that hope is gone and they have lost the 100,000 potential customers who have viewed this thread (awesome way to get your name out there, huh?).

Thanks with staying with this thread Donn, your a good guy

John


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

edwardsatc said:


> Oh brother ...


Oh hey....Dillon and Rick....Guess what?
Um, yeah, all those frogs(TM) you bought from me...the ones your using as breeding stock...and made up new names for....they were fed flies from media that used MP. 
Fail dudes.
Try again.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Just checked their website. They proudly proclaim that they do not sell froglets, yet there is a link on their page for tadpoles for sale. Kinda contradictory isn't it?


----------



## carola1155

***Reminder***
Off topic pictures/memes/videos are NOT permitted. If they keep getting posted, this thread will be closed.


----------



## Boondoggle

carola1155 said:


> ***Reminder***
> Off topic pictures/memes/videos are NOT permitted. If they keep getting posted, this thread will be closed.


Apologies, Tom.

So are they claiming that the frogs are sexually maturing early and that's a sign of quality, or are they are just growing quickly and displaying gender traits based on rapid...uh...development? What ARE they saying??

If they are saying that they can accurately sex a frog before sexual maturity then they have a lot of nerve throwing around that "Beware of the frog seller..." crap. Many times you can sex a frog based on physical traits, but often you can't. There are only 2 ways to 100% assure a frogs gender...calling or eggs. Other than that you're guessing. It's not that unusual to see a tinc that could go either way. Heck, I've seen huge wild caught tincs that couldn't be accurately sexed. They must have been raised in a substandard fashion, huh?

...also, and I may be WAY off on this one, but I thought the first time I saw their fly food it did have MP in it and that they later backtracked on that...am I remembering that wrong?


----------



## FroggyKnight

carola1155 said:


> ***Reminder***
> Off topic pictures/memes/videos are NOT permitted. If they keep getting posted, this thread will be closed.


I would usually be against a post like the one that was just deleted, but I thought it summed up our thoughts very well and was right to the point. Yes it was from a comedy and yes it was a funny quote, but IMO it was not off topic. I'm apologize if we feel differently on the subject. I understand that all actions by moderators are final and not up for debate.



Boondoggle said:


> Apologies, Tom.
> 
> So are they claiming that the frogs are sexually maturing early and that's a sign of quality, or are they are just growing quickly and displaying gender traits based on rapid...uh...development? What ARE they saying??
> 
> If they are saying that they can accurately sex a frog before sexual maturity then they have a lot of nerve throwing around that "Beware of the frog seller..." crap. Many times you can sex a frog based on physical traits, but often you can't. There are only 2 ways to 100% assure a frogs gender...calling or eggs. Other than that you're guessing. It's not that unusual to see a tinc that could go either way. Heck, I've seen huge wild caught tincs that couldn't be accurately sexed. They must have been raised in a substandard fashion, huh?
> 
> ...also, and I may be WAY off on this one, but I thought the first time I saw their fly food it did have MP in it and that they later backtracked on that...am I remembering that wrong?


You are 100% right Boondoggle. The thing is that their website is confusing for a reason. My theory is that they are using their lawyer powers to leave everything to be interpreted by the reader. Their comments are praising their ways and criticizing their competitors while truly saying nothing that can be confirmed. All the misspellings aid in this in a way as they might completely change the meaning of a sentence. Would someone like to confirm my thoughts? I would really appreciate it if someone could scour the site for evidence of this.

With that said, I interpret their sexing comments as just wrong. It's impossible to say that they are that accurate without the production of eggs/calling, like you say. 

Additionally, if you look at the end of the first paragraph that Donn posted, it says…


SafeDartFrogs.com said:


> Some of our auratus are sexable at 7-9 months and we keep most of them too.


 Why do they keep most of them? Are their sexing methods not good enough to back up their claims? Most breeders are good enough NOT to state the gender of their stock, because the best anyone can do is guess.


Ok, I just when on their site for the first time and ages and wanted to cry. They have a new section called companion pairs… 



SafeDartFrogs.com said:


> This category is unique and only offered by us. Frogs like companions–friends to live with! A Companion Pair is Two (2), 5-7 month old frogs of the same variety that grew up together in the same enclosure from the week they morphed into a frog! They are shipped to you FedEx Priority Overnight for FREE! They grew up together, their entire life so far, and live compatibly, friendly, and harmoniusly. They like each other and enjoy the company. They are exactly the same age within a week or two. They were raised with proper supplementation, constant care, no overcrowding, and private clean enclosures! Upon purchase, you will be sent frogs of the same age, size, and friends since birth using our own FrogMatch™ criterion, so there is never any compatibility issue whatsoever. You might get a M/F pair at the best price anywhere, but we do not sex these. If you desire a pair mated compatibly for breeding, then please select a pair or trio from the Signature category. All the best from us to you!


EDIT: I'm pretty sure that that they used MP when they started as well. It's gonna be hard searching this thread for evidence though...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I was really hoping this thread was dead.

I actually had a whole week of my life back.


----------



## Judy S

It just gets more and more ridiculous...I'm trying to remember the DBer who liked to make up his "fairy tales" that were pretty transparent in mocking some members...where IS he with this blatant fairytale...com'on now...you know who you are.....this is just SO ripe with all sorts of soap opera episodes.....


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I was really hoping this thread was dead.
> 
> I actually had a whole week of my life back.


Unfortunately it is a necessary evil until these guys are out of business.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

I know that their personal beliefs and religion are off limits, but is so much as in this case they are using the analogy to sport doing what they do, I think an exception is warranted. They're creating a specific comparison between their religious beliefs and the hobby is the only reason I think this is pertinent. This was pulled directly from their dart frog pages, not one of Ricks personal evangelical pages.



> Most noteworthy, they are the people who profit the most. Stated another way, change from the way things are is not welcomed by those who profit most, either in $ or ego-strokes. Consider the religious Jews who had Jesus crucified, they definitely wanted things to stay the same because of the $ and ego, and yet their acts actually propelled the power of the Lord by killing him!


So you see folks, we're apparently just persecuting them like the Jews did to Jesus. How anyone can make such an asinine comparison is beyond me. I wonder if Rick realizes this debasement of his own religious tenants is more insulting to his own faith than it is to us? I guess they think our acts are going to propel them? It would be hilarious if you didn't know they think this is true.

I have to wonder what a potential customer thinks when they stumble across this anti-Semite drivel.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

E-mails people, E- mails. Send your thoughts to them.
I did and it really got under their skin.
Who the hell knows if they're reading this
or not. This thread is pretty much for our
entertainment.

E-mails people.


----------



## *GREASER*

I will never support this dealer based on this Holy Spirit U - Discipleship affiliation and I ask that other froggers who support biology and all aspects of natural history and science to do the same. It completely undermines all progress in the taxonomy and evolutionary biology of the frogs we hold so dear!


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

*GREASER* said:


> I will never support this dealer based on this Holy Spirit U - Discipleship affiliation and I ask that other froggers who support biology and all aspects of natural history and science to do the same. It completely undermines all progress in the taxonomy and evolutionary biology of the frogs we hold so dear!


Great post, now send it to them


----------



## Boondoggle

> Originally Posted by SafeDartFrogs.com
> This category is unique and only offered by us. Frogs like companions–friends to live with! A Companion Pair is Two (2), 5-7 month old frogs of the same variety that grew up together in the same enclosure from the week they morphed into a frog! They are shipped to you FedEx Priority Overnight for FREE! They grew up together, their entire life so far, and live compatibly, friendly, and harmoniusly. They like each other and enjoy the company. They are exactly the same age within a week or two. They were raised with proper supplementation, constant care, no overcrowding, and private clean enclosures! Upon purchase, you will be sent frogs of the same age, size, and friends since birth using our own FrogMatch™ criterion, so there is never any compatibility issue whatsoever. You might get a M/F pair at the best price anywhere, but we do not sex these. If you desire a pair mated compatibly for breeding, then please select a pair or trio from the Signature category. All the best from us to you!


Well as long as they've been raised together I guess there can never be a compatibility issue whatsoever. That's the FrogMatch™ guarantee!*

*Guarantee void if frogs are relocated to a new tank, allowed to age, or ever have a bad day. Any and all wrestling is not in fact wrestling but instead Amphibitraining™ ultimately results in a tougher frog. Amphibitraining™, because there can be only one.



...tongue in cheek, but it's not uncommon to take frogs that have always gotten along and put them in a new sparse tank and have them really go at it. Maybe they work out a new territorial agreement and maybe they don't. They should know this.


----------



## yerbamate

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Great post, now send it to them[/
> 
> Send stuff but not this....the more these people turn off prospective buyers with their holier than thou BS, the sooner this operation fails and the less damage done to captive stock.


----------



## Dane

Boondoggle said:


> Originally Posted by SafeDartFrogs.com
> They like each other and enjoy the company. They are exactly the same age within a week or two. They were raised with proper supplementation, constant care, no overcrowding, and private clean enclosures! Upon purchase, you will be sent frogs of the same age, size, and friends since birth using our own FrogMatch™ criterion, so there is never any compatibility issue whatsoever. You might get a M/F pair at the best price anywhere, but we do not sex these.


They mention that the frogs have grown up together, but they also state that they were raised in "private" enclosures. What does that mean? Shielded from the public eye? No reporters were allowed in for interviews with the happy couple?


----------



## *GREASER*

"Companion Pairs"..........How old are the people involved with this? I from what the site said I believe it is supposedly run by a 20yr old, 17, and a 14yr old??????? I think the soccer mom in the pics must be involved with writing a lot of this garbage, that or the FALSE PROPHET thats linked with the site.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Enlightened Rogue said:


> E-mails people, E- mails. Send your thoughts to them.
> I did and it really got under their skin.
> Who the hell knows if they're reading this
> or not. This thread is pretty much for our
> entertainment.
> 
> E-mails people.


This thread for the last 100 pages has been the same thing repeated 
over and over again by the same handful of people
Has one sponsor other than Dane done anything here? ( this affects you too guys)
Just think if everyone here sent their thoughts to them. 
I`m not saying harass them in any way, just one e-mail.

Remember people, they returned an e-mail of mine pretty much saying we 
were the idiots. I seriously doubt they`re even reading this.
I got much more satisfaction letting them personally know how I felt.
We have no problem harassing each other, why not send a thought to the people
who really deserve it.
For me anyway, this thread is pretty much for our own entertainment at this point.


----------



## Mantella71

I sent them an e-mail a few months ago but never received a reply. I basically said if you want to "appear" professional at least learn how to spell.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Mantella71 said:


> I sent them an e-mail a few months ago but never received a reply. I basically said if you want to "appear" professional at least learn how to spell.


Bet it felt good didn't it.


----------



## JJuchems

Did anyone notice the "wholesale/dealer" review of their frogs? Interesting they with held the name...really show validity.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I did Jason. Why post a positive feedback and leave out the persons name?

*Edit, either the person didn`t want anyone to know they did business with them, or it was BS.
Knowing them I`ll take door number 2.


----------



## carola1155

I wonder if they would ship to me today....


----------



## Judy S

24 hour guarantee....live


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

carola1155 said:


> I wonder if they would ship to me today....


Ok, if I see your name in there I`m really throwin in the towel


----------



## carola1155

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, if I see your name in there I`m really throwin in the towel


Dont worry... I prefer DANGEROUS(TM) frogs, so I buy from people that actually know what they are talking about.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, if I see your name in there I`m really throwin in the towel


I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I`m actually expecting a package today or tomorrow, fortunately it`s from Dane.

For those that are wondering what the heck we`re talking about it`s snowing so 
hard right now I can`t even see my car in the drive way.
3rd major storm in about 10 days. Hope you guys are safe down south in the ice.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

carola1155 said:


> Dont worry... I prefer DANGEROUS(TM) frogs, so I buy from people that actually know what they are talking about.


Ok, just checkin buddy. You Jersey boys can be crazy at times.


----------



## carola1155

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok, just checkin buddy. You Jersey boys can be crazy at times.


haha well at the moment I'm a Philly boy... Downside of being "essential" is that the office makes me stay in a hotel in the city so I can't make any excuses and take a snow day. 

Needless to say, I did a bit of digging around on their site last night since I was bored at the hotel and read all the genius new commentary they've put up. That "simplicity" link is terrible. It is written in like a conversational tone which makes it hard to follow and not very clear. They need to learn how to express their (crazy) thoughts in a more organized manner. Compare that to some of Josh's how-to guides and it isn't even a contest. Really separates the men from the boys.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

carola1155 said:


> Compare that to some of Josh's how-to guides and it isn't even a contest. Really separates the men from the boys.


OH MY GOD!
Can you imagine a how to video from them?!?
That would win every major award for best comedy.


----------



## InvertaHerp

A generic name can NEVER again function as a trademark and will never be an indication of source of the goods/services sold. Thus, for us to use a generic trademark for our frogs would frustrate the purpose and growth of our company, and the recognition of our quality. We want to be known as the source of OUR frogs because of OUR outstanding quality, and professional customer service. Thus, the trademarks we use are indeed trademarks associated with us and only us, U.S. Dart Frog. We like it that way, because we demand quality and not all of the generic versions of frogs out there are of the highest quality, imports can be diseased, and wild caught frogs can be poisonous. With that said, we know of MANY reputable froggers and love them!!!

That was from their site, under a new tab. Seems like they are trying to justify their made up names, but wtf?


----------



## Alexmenke92

Just speaking of trademarks…

Dendromart™ - SAFE™ stuff we use!
First there was plastic bag lined cultures, then NO-methylparaben high yield, no smell, no mold, no vinegar, media; then FlyDOH™ easy to use media, the substrate microlife PILLOW™ and TADCUBES™. 

Now we offer: DENDROBED™ and DENDROLID™ our newest innovations ripe for release. 

I'm pretty sure they've trademarked every single item they use...


----------



## PumilioTurkey

too bad they can't trademark the term "*BULLSHIT*"


----------



## carola1155

"recognition of our quality" 

Wouldn't you think that *other* people would be required to give them the "recognition"? Ya know, like how if you want to win an Oscar... people actually have to nominate and vote for you. You can't just say "hey, I made the best movie this year... says me... you must now accept this statement as fact"


----------



## mfsidore

*Each and every dart frog & tadpole we sell is captive bred and raised by us in the U.S.A.! They are totally harmless, 100% NON-toxic, perfectly healthy, and beautifully display the best conformation. Also, we are the ONLY authorized source for SAFE® dart frogs and dart frog tadpoles in the United States! *

Found this on the website.... The last sentence..... Doesn't that mean there's no such thing as joshs frogs, black jungle terrarium,etc? If this was posted already or it means something other then what I think is does I apologize, for I haven't read the whole thread.

Edit: Really!?! They trademarked the word SAFE.!?!???!?!

*U.S. Dart Frog is the only source for SAFE® captive bred dart frogs and tadpoles in the United States! Our SAFE brand frogs ARE completely and totally harmless, perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, absolutely beautiful, fun, and they live for 15 years or more! In addition, our SAFE brand is your assurance that none of our captive bred dart frogs have even been fed feeder fruit flies raised on methylparaben (MP) laced media!*

Also found this.... First sentence.....


----------



## InvertaHerp

mfsidore said:


> *Each and every dart frog & tadpole we sell is captive bred and raised by us in the U.S.A.! They are totally harmless, 100% NON-toxic, perfectly healthy, and beautifully display the best conformation. Also, we are the ONLY authorized source for SAFE® dart frogs and dart frog tadpoles in the United States! *
> 
> Found this on the website.... The last sentence..... Doesn't that mean there's no such thing as joshs frogs, black jungle terrarium,etc? If this was posted already or it means something other then what I think is does I apologize, for I haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> Edit: Really!?! They trademarked the word SAFE.!?!???!?!


They don't recognize anybody else, but the SAFE thing is because they are the only idiots who sell trademarked frogs.


----------



## jflick345

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I`m actually expecting a package today or tomorrow, fortunately it`s from Dane.
> 
> For those that are wondering what the heck we`re talking about it`s snowing so
> hard right now I can`t even see my car in the drive way.
> 3rd major storm in about 10 days. Hope you guys are safe down south in the ice.


What's this "snow" and "ice" stuff you guys keep talking about?


----------



## FroggyKnight

jflick345 said:


> What's this snow and ice stuff you guys keep talking about?


Don't worry, you'll get your shipment SAFE(tm) and sound in the heart of hurricane season


----------



## JayMillz

Alexmenke92 said:


> Just speaking of trademarks…
> 
> Dendromart™ - SAFE™ stuff we use!
> First there was plastic bag lined cultures, then NO-methylparaben high yield, no smell, no mold, no vinegar, media; then FlyDOH™ easy to use media, the substrate microlife PILLOW™ and TADCUBES™.
> 
> Now we offer: DENDROBED™ and DENDROLID™ our newest innovations ripe for release.
> 
> I'm pretty sure they've trademarked every single item they use...


My kid has had one of those cubes for years. The exact same thing. All they did was put a fake plant in it and a sticker on the front.


----------



## Boondoggle

InvertaHerp said:


> A generic name can NEVER again function as a trademark and will never be an indication of source of the goods/services sold. Thus, for us to use a generic trademark for our frogs would frustrate the purpose and growth of our company, and the recognition of our quality. We want to be known as the source of OUR frogs because of OUR outstanding quality, and professional customer service. Thus, the trademarks we use are indeed trademarks associated with us and only us, U.S. Dart Frog. We like it that way, because we demand quality and not all of the generic versions of frogs out there are of the highest quality, imports can be diseased, and wild caught frogs can be poisonous. With that said, we know of MANY reputable froggers and love them!!!
> 
> That was from their site, under a new tab. Seems like they are trying to justify their made up names, but wtf?


That's kind of my favorite part. 

"I want to start Breeding Collies, but I can't trademark that name, and therefore the customer wont know that I'm selling the highest grade collies in the world. Obviously logic dictates that I rename them. I am no longer breeding collies, but rather 'DreamBarkers'. That way there is no confusion that what I am actually selling are high grade Collies'.

DreamBarkers™...They won't tear your throat out like those other dogs do!"

...yep, that logic checks out.


I shot them an email because ER is right, but I'd be lying if I said I don't look forward to this thread.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Boondoggle said:


> but I'd be lying if I said I don't look forward to this thread.


I hear that, I gave up trying.


----------



## Alexmenke92

mfsidore said:


> *Each and every dart frog & tadpole we sell is captive bred and raised by us in the U.S.A.! They are totally harmless, 100% NON-toxic, perfectly healthy, and beautifully display the best conformation. Also, we are the ONLY authorized source for SAFE® dart frogs and dart frog tadpoles in the United States! *
> 
> Found this on the website.... The last sentence..... Doesn't that mean there's no such thing as joshs frogs, black jungle terrarium,etc? If this was posted already or it means something other then what I think is does I apologize, for I haven't read the whole thread.
> 
> Edit: Really!?! They trademarked the word SAFE.!?!???!?!
> 
> *U.S. Dart Frog is the only source for SAFE® captive bred dart frogs and tadpoles in the United States! Our SAFE brand frogs ARE completely and totally harmless, perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, absolutely beautiful, fun, and they live for 15 years or more! In addition, our SAFE brand is your assurance that none of our captive bred dart frogs have even been fed feeder fruit flies raised on methylparaben (MP) laced media!*
> 
> Also found this.... First sentence.....


Honestly if you want something to open your eyes to how crazy people are while simultaneously finding yourself watching a comedy (albeit a sick one), this is a thread worth reading. 



JayMillz said:


> My kid has had one of those cubes for years. The exact same thing. All they did was put a fake plant in it and a sticker on the front.


I feel like it's not the only product they've…ahem *stolen* ahem. Sorry, I meant trademarked.


----------



## Dragonfish

Wow, this is a pretty bold statement

"best in class–polycarbonate (non-warping) lid. All the fuss about polycarbonate should be ignored. The original polycarbonate materials did off-gas, but the more modern materials like we use are the same material the largest/best orchid growing greenhouses use and air quality is important."


----------



## FroggyKnight

￼ Hmmm, are those orchid greenhouses kept at constant 80% or higher humidity? I honestly have no clue if the comparison between orchid greenhouses and frog tanks is even relevant. 

Best in class polycarbonate non-warping lid. Who determined that it is best in class? They need to start showing proof if they're going to continue with these crazy descriptions. 

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

How cute, they updated their nonsensical 365 day a year shipping with FedEx's delay notice. I wonder why? 

Anyone still think they're not closely reading this thread.

At least there is that upside to all this, by them paying attention to this, we've made them aware that they can't and shouldn't ship in this weather, likely saving the lives of some animals in the process. The last thing we really need is them shipping in cold weather, having it get delayed, the wrong person complaining to FedEx about dead animals, etc.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

FroggyKnight said:


> ￼
> Who determined that it is best in class?
> 
> John


C`mon man everyone knows that.... The Westminster Dog judges.

It was on last week, another original idea by these melon heads.


----------



## carola1155

Funny that they changed their tone on the shipping stuff in some areas but didnt in others... 

These seems reasonable and is a bit of a step back from that "We can ship whenever no matter what muahahahahaha" kinda trolling they were doing before:


> Like us, we know you want the animals to safely and most definitely ARRIVE2THRIVE!™ We guarantee it!
> Please understand, our combined concern is the safety and health of the frogs. In the most severe weather such as blizzards that shut down roads, single digit or negative temps, etc., we may reschedule, <OR> require your regional airport FedEx Service Center to be the final destination (HAL "Hold At Location") if we both agree to ship. Of course, we do not ship if the planes don't fly, trucks don't roll, in the below zero ranges w/ deadly wind chill, etc., and we will always coordinate this with you. In short, we will always work with you to arrange for the best, mutually agreeable, shipping days, considering weather, schedules, etc.! Also, with low temps or odd weather and depending upon your location, we do reserve the right to reschedule delivery for a better time that is less stressful on the frogs.


But then they follow it up with another completely unfounded and borderline false-advertisement kind of claim on the same page: 


> As the only commercial seller of captive bred dart frogs able to ship throughout the entire year, all fifty-two (52) weeks, no doubt we offer the safest way to ship your frogs, and a valuable service to our customers who don't plan their frog purchases by the season or the weather.


Its pretty funny actually...

They try to play this overly-honest genuine "family business" style when they want and then turn right around and go "we're the best, everyone else doesn't know what they are doing despite tons more experience and all of our stuff is proprietary and we won't release any information because it's actually all just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims"


----------



## JayMillz

Haha, I was reading their site and that section hit a pet peeve. They were rambling on about the cold temps and what the wind chill was when they shipped an order. Well, if the frogs are in a box, which is in a truck, how do they feel the wind? Unless for a little while they were trying to ship the frogs in cages or something...but the wind chill is only what the temp is going to feel like on your skin with the wind blowing on it, not what the actual temperature is. They could ship a frog in 50 degree weather with a 200 degree below zero windchill, how would the frogs even notice when they are being blocked from the wind. But if we really wanted to nit pick all the dumb stuff they have on their website, we could have another 100 pages to this thread.



carola1155 said:


> Funny that they changed their tone on the shipping stuff in some areas but didnt in others...
> 
> These seems reasonable and is a bit of a step back from that "We can ship whenever no matter what muahahahahaha" kinda trolling they were doing before:
> 
> 
> But then they follow it up with another completely unfounded and borderline false-advertisement kind of claim on the same page:
> 
> 
> Its pretty funny actually...
> 
> They try to play this overly-honest genuine "family business" style when they want and then turn right around and go "we're the best, everyone else doesn't know what they are doing despite tons more experience and all of our stuff is proprietary and we won't release any information because it's actually all just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims"


----------



## Charlie Q

from a polycarbonate manufacturer concerning warping: 



> Polycarbonate sheet is an engineered plastic resin belonging to the polyester family of plastics. It is a high quality, transparent thermoplastic synthetic material with exceptional properties, some of which are temperature resistant and flexibility – it can resist both considerably low and high temperatures. Mild warping is normal. Adequate spacing of framing is highly important and recommended. Framing must be fabricated and installed properly



source:
POLYLITE INDUSTRIAL CORPORATION - Polycarbonate Philippines Fiberglass Sheet Hardware Las Piñas Quezon City Manila Alabang Cavite Cebu Philippines Roofing IndustrialPolylite Industrial Corporation


----------



## edwardsatc

edwardsatc said:


> Oh brother ...
> 
> 
> US Dart Frogs website said:
> 
> 
> 
> BEWARE of frog sellers that advise not (translated cannot), sex any of their frogs until full maturity. In fact, if they cannot sex a significant portion of their frogs early we recommend buying from someone else like us. Why? The ability to distinguish male and female traits early is indicative of quality. The pairs we sell at 8+ months are sexed and some of the absolute best paired frog values on the planet! Think about it! Our pairs are sexed, and yes some are as young as 6 months old for tincs, and we sell many of them as our Signature series. Some of our auratus are sexable at 7-9 months and we keep most of them too.
> 
> It is a huge advantage to sex frogs early, because the ability to do so indicates a more advanced frog, both from a quality perspective and breeder value! Our frogs are bigger and sex determinable early! If you know the parent stock, like cheat code for a video game, this will help you sex them but not the truest way. Still, no matter what, if you load your frogs with methylparaben (MP) from flies fed on, and gut loaded with, MP based media, then you may never know the sex from a visual determination and breeding production wil be low. Talk about harm & liability,..."known or should have known"...the MP injury to so many frogs. Very sad!!! We have never sold MP based media products, and never will! We have never fed the frogs we sell any fruit flies raised on MP based media, and never will!
Click to expand...

... and they've changed their tune again. Still rubbish though. For those that think they aren't watching this thread, just watch the changes after something has been critiqued here.



US Dart Frogs website said:


> It is a huge advantage to sex frogs early, because the ability to do so indicates a more advanced frog, both from a quality perspective and breeder value! Stated another way, the ability to distinguish male and female traits early is indicative of quality. The pairs we sell at 8+ months are sexed and some of the absolute best paired frog values on the planet! Think about it! Our pairs are sexed, and yes some are as young as 6-7 months old for tincs, and we sell many of them as our Signature series. Some of our auratus are sexable at 8-9 months and we keep most of them too. Our frogs are bigger and sex determinable early. Still, no matter what, if you load your frogs with methylparaben (MP) from flies fed on, and gut loaded with, MP based media, then you may never know the sex from a visual determination and breeding production wil be low. Talk about harm & liability,..."known or should have known"...the MP injury to so many frogs. Very sad!!! We have never sold MP based media products, and never will! We have never fed the frogs we sell any fruit flies raised on MP based media, and never will!


----------



## carola1155

This whole MP campaign is akin to whole foods and their anti GMO stuff... incredibly misguided and aimed at earning them money while they slander something that they (and their target audience) don't even truly understand.


----------



## edwardsatc

carola1155 said:


> This whole MP campaign is akin to whole foods and their anti GMO stuff... incredibly misguided and aimed at earning them money while they slander something that they (and their target audience) don't even truly understand.


It seems, all along, they've been taking an "if the hobby is for it ... we're against it" or "if the hobby is against it, we're for it" approach. Hybridizing, methylparaben, bad weather shipping, line breeding, localities, etc ... shit they've even taken issue with magnolia leaves.

It's the "Look at us! We're exceptional and unique" business model. Nothing wrong with that model if you're truly exceptional, but when you're just misguided and misinformed ... then you see the cluster we have before us.

I'll give them one thing, they're certainly "special".


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Jalapeno, Onyx and Toffee Auratus? Is this new or am I just a bit behind with their insanity.

US Dart Frog - Auratus Varieties


----------



## edwardsatc

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Jalapeno, Onyx and Toffee Auratus? Is this new or am I just a bit behind with their insanity.
> 
> US Dart Frog - Auratus Varieties


C'mon John, that's old news ... keep up, will ya ...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

edwardsatc said:


> C'mon John, that's old news ... keep up, will ya ...


I`m trying Donn. I`m waist deep in snow and there`s more coming tomorrow.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Ok, really? They renamed a frog EPOC instead of el Cope. Very creative guys....

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Looks like they completely retooled their Frog-match idea. Apparently it is no longer eHarmony for dart frogs, but rather just their not so fancy or creative way of placing frogs with their owners.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

FroggyKnight said:


> Ok, really? They renamed a frog EPOC instead of el Cope. Very creative guys....
> 
> John


You can spell boob and kook backwards also.


----------



## Judy S

John, surely you can come up with even better ones if you try....or do you get stuck using more than four letters...?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Judy S said:


> John, surely you can come up with even better ones if you try....or do you get stuck using more than four letters...?


GAG!

Which is what I want to do every time I check this thread.


----------



## Alexmenke92

^ second this


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## edwardsatc

So now they're scientists and have "scientific and engineering expertise". Perhaps the most biologically illiterate "scientists" ever.



US Dart Frogs website said:


> The World English Dictionary defines "scientist" as "a person who studies or practises any of the sciences or who uses scientific methods", and we all certainly do that here! Thereforer, as a family of scientists young and old, we all work together as a team to study, breed, and raise all of our frogs and tads with the best care possible. Accordingly, each of us is also a frog specialist in some way as we take primary responsibility for at least one important function in our operation. For example, our youngest budding scientist Darbie (age 11), who is thinks about becoming a veterinarian, prepares the tadpole cups for Dillon. Dilon handles the breeding and biological sciences side of our operations. Devin & Daly produce all of our media, cultures, bean beetles, rice flour larva, etc., and feed frogs everyday. Mom and Dad help out everywhere, and keep the wolves at bay! All combined, our family has decades of pet care, love for frogs, scientific and engineering expertise, a working knowledge of frog breeding, biology and habitat familiarity to name a few. Our innovations are vast and many form the basis of our trade secrets and intellectual property. Even so, most importantly is our God given passion for these colorful frogs and the reason we all excel at what we do, and why we do it!


----------



## InvertaHerp

From their site: In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair. *In the future we will post pics of mixed frogs, within species of course. *

And boom goes the dynamite.


----------



## Bcs TX

edwardsatc said:


> So now they're scientists and have "scientific and engineering expertise". Perhaps the most biologically illiterate "scientists" ever.


Donn your older than 11, right.... 
I have a Bachelor's of Science degree and if I wrote a paper in my Research Methods class or statistics class in college with the BS they are spewing on their website it would be an automatic F.


----------



## edwardsatc

InvertaHerp said:


> From their site: In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair. *In the future we will post pics of mixed frogs, within species of course. *
> 
> And boom goes the dynamite.


I'm surprised it took so long.


----------



## Aldross

Hah I hadn't stopped by to read this in awhile. 
You know, for a family full of "scientist" they are just awful at spelling. 
I was unaware that you could actually love yourself as much as they do and still let minor errors like typos riddle their pages.


----------



## Boondoggle

InvertaHerp said:


> *In the future we will post pics of mixed frogs, within species of course. *


Why stop there? Why draw the line at species and act like *that* is taking the high ground? Almost every valid argument that applies to not crossing species also applies to not cross-breeding. If you don't respect those points, why draw a line in the sand at hybrids?


----------



## grendel88

Hey Beth,
I teach Biology at the collegiate level. If you turned in a paper touting the nonsense these guys use for the basis of their "innovative ideas", I would definitely fail you and suggest you change majors.


----------



## Dendro Dave

When they're ok with being considered the dart frog version of a sleazy used car salesman and using those kinda marketing/business practices, you know they are mostly in it for themselves, not for the hobby or the animals.


----------



## Charlie Q

InvertaHerp said:


> From their site: In fact, in the case of the dendrobates (tinctorius and auratus), the experts say some of the frogs in the hobby today are crossbreeds, how else would you get mixed colors and patterns from a single polymorphic (meaning many morphs) breeding pair. *In the future we will post pics of mixed frogs, within species of course. *


i can't find it on their site, do you recall what page it was on?

EDIT: i found it. "frog match" page.

i was just thinking about how they sell tadpole groups, and if these mixed morph varieties don't sell like hotcakes, they might use the tadpole groups as a mechanism to dump their surplus hybrid frogs. people wouldn't even know what hit them until later.

also, it bugs me that they claim engineering expertise. i doubt any one of them could take an integral, much less be an expert….


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ZookeeperDoug said:


> until these guys are out of business.


I honestly don`t see that happening. I think they`re just too far gone at this point.
Now their going to post pictures of their mixed frog`s which will makes things even more
attractive to the uninformed.
My hatred for these people is becoming unhealthy and I would like to think I`m bigger than 
that and them.
And yes I still believe they`re not reading this thread, Any vendor could check the weather
and see that the east coast is getting hammered. Dane from Jungle Box checked and assured me my order would be fine and I most certainly believe him.
So I am in no way admitting defeat and I REALLY hope they get what`s coming to them.
I just need a break from it.
Good luck guys and gals, keep up the fight, and just in case you losers are reading this
screw you and you will lose in the end.

*Edit, I also feel that a lot more people here should be involved. Seriously, show some balls.


----------



## Bcs TX

Yet more:US Dart Frog - FAQ

Do I need to test or quarantine your frogs?

Absolutely not! That is totally unnecessary with our frogs! Quarantine is good when there is a lot of frog movement in and out of inventories and importations as well as frog flipping (buying and reselling). We raise every frog from the egg. Our movement is ONLY one way, always outward. Our entire place is run by us, and only us. We do NOT take frogs in from the outside, and we do not buy and resell. Last count, even considering the winter season, we have over 2500 tads and 800 fertilized eggs and newly morphed froglets just out of the water, and the numbers are climbing. There are NO diseases in our facility, never were, and never will be. GUARANTEED! We do not let any frogs into our frog populations. For completeness, we do not buy frogs from the outside. With that said, we are considering buying back the offspring from our pairs and only our pairs. At that time we will require our customer and partner to let us know their operations, and certify they did not allow methylparaben into the food chain. Thus, if you wish to quarantine, then feel free, but it is not necessary. There is no testing needed with our frogs. Everything we sell is bred and raised under our watchful eyes, and always has been, they are ALL CLEAN and ALWAYS will be. That is part of our SAFE brand!

Scary stuff!!!! 

I guess all of their frogs they have (that they bought to start this so called business) from hobbyists/breeders were raised in a "vacuum." 
Will send them an e-mail tommorow, if they answer me will let you know.


----------



## JayMillz

Bcs TX said:


> Yet more:US Dart Frog - FAQ
> 
> Do I need to test or quarantine your frogs?
> 
> Absolutely not! That is totally unnecessary with our frogs! Quarantine is good when there is a lot of frog movement in and out of inventories and importations as well as frog flipping (buying and reselling). We raise every frog from the egg. Our movement is ONLY one way, always outward. Our entire place is run by us, and only us. We do NOT take frogs in from the outside, and we do not buy and resell. Last count, even considering the winter season, we have over 2500 tads and 800 fertilized eggs and newly morphed froglets just out of the water, and the numbers are climbing. There are NO diseases in our facility, never were, and never will be. GUARANTEED! We do not let any frogs into our frog populations. For completeness, we do not buy frogs from the outside. With that said, we are considering buying back the offspring from our pairs and only our pairs. At that time we will require our customer and partner to let us know their operations, and certify they did not allow methylparaben into the food chain. Thus, if you wish to quarantine, then feel free, but it is not necessary. There is no testing needed with our frogs. Everything we sell is bred and raised under our watchful eyes, and always has been, they are ALL CLEAN and ALWAYS will be. That is part of our SAFE brand!
> 
> Scary stuff!!!!
> 
> I guess all of their frogs they have (that they bought to start this so called business) from hobbyists/breeders were raised in a "vacuum."
> Will send them an e-mail tommorow, if they answer me will let you know.


So if they want to buy something they want to see pictures of the sellers facility, but they will not provide pictures of their own upon requests...that's fair


----------



## BrainBug

That's funny. Didn't they recently have a "Breeder Program" or something like that where you would send your frogs to them and they would pair them up with their own frogs and split the profits of the babies with you? 

Either that was an utter failure and not a single person sent a frog to them or they are blatantly lying. Regardless posting such information on a site targeted towards new hobbyists in irresponsible, but I guess that's what we've come to expect.


----------



## Dane

> Yet more:US Dart Frog - FAQ
> 
> Do I need to test or quarantine your frogs?
> 
> Absolutely not! That is totally unnecessary with our frogs! Quarantine is good when there is a lot of frog movement in and out of inventories and importations as well as frog flipping (buying and reselling). We raise every frog from the egg. Our movement is ONLY one way, always outward. Our entire place is run by us, and only us. We do NOT take frogs in from the outside, and we do not buy and resell. Last count, even considering the winter season, we have over 2500 tads and 800 fertilized eggs and newly morphed froglets just out of the water, and the numbers are climbing. There are NO diseases in our facility, never were, and never will be. GUARANTEED! We do not let any frogs into our frog populations. For completeness, we do not buy frogs from the outside. With that said, we are considering buying back the offspring from our pairs and only our pairs. At that time we will require our customer and partner to let us know their operations, and certify they did not allow methylparaben into the food chain. Thus, if you wish to quarantine, then feel free, but it is not necessary. There is no testing needed with our frogs. Everything we sell is bred and raised under our watchful eyes, and always has been, they are ALL CLEAN and ALWAYS will be. That is part of our SAFE brand!


Guess Van Leeuwenhoek was wrong about spontaneous generation. Throw some "scientists" in a warehouse with empty aquariums and BOOM, frogs. Though this would seem to negate a creationist perspective, unless of course, they are God in this model, and God didn't invent pathogens.


----------



## Wings

Wonder what would happen if Chytrid managed to find its way into their level 10 maximum security farm?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Wings said:


> Wonder what would happen if Chytrid managed to find its way into their level 10 maximum security farm?


Who is to say it hasn't? They give no indication as to their testing procedures or if they ever tested. They seem to naively think that just because they're not currently adding to their frog collection, that this means there is no chance that Chytrid or Ranavirus has ever made it into their collection.

We can add to this the knowledge that he has at least purchased and left feedback for at least one big name breeder who has recently sent out frogs that tested positive for Chytrid and Ranavirus. One can safely assume at least that the potential for possibly infected frogs in their collection exists. But how would they even know?

Rick, since I know you're reading this, I'll email you the name of that breeder. You can call or email them to confirm that this is not a lie. I can also give you the contact info for the two people who I know for a fact got frogs from this person. They can provide you actual copies of the positive test results, some of which have been posted here.


----------



## Ed

Dragonfish said:


> Wow, this is a pretty bold statement
> 
> "best in class–polycarbonate (non-warping) lid. All the fuss about polycarbonate should be ignored. The original polycarbonate materials did off-gas, but the more modern materials like we use are the same material the largest/best orchid growing greenhouses use and air quality is important."


Sadly they seem to equate out-gassing with leaching.. two different processes. 

I have to admit that I am amused that they are "concerned" about methylparaben yet have not issues with bisphenol A leaching from the polycarbonate...... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Who is to say it hasn't? They give no indication as to their testing procedures or if they ever tested. They seem to naively think that just because they're not currently adding to their frog collection, that this means there is no chance that Chytrid or Ranavirus has ever made it into their collection.
> .


Ignoring the fact that some parasites may not be detected until the frogs are necropsied... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ed said:


> Ignoring the fact that some parasites may not be detected until the frogs are necropsied...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Exactly. They're making completely false claims that they can't back up.

If they were not making rock solid, 100% guarantees about the health and safety of their frogs it would be less of an issue! let's face it! a lot of people don't test! a lot of big breeders don't test! but they don't make absurd claims like DFW/USdARTfrog.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Ed said:


> I have to admit that I am amused that they are "concerned" about methylparaben yet...
> 
> Ed


Ed, I'm curious what your thoughts/comments on their methyparaben concerns are.


----------



## markpulawski

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ed, I'm curious what your thoughts/comments on their methyparaben concerns are.


Doug you obviously have not seen their latest ad, they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and without a shred of evidence that MP stunts frogs growth....it is the theoretical equivalent of cigarette smoking in young boys, most of whom end up being jockeys. Stunted frogs without nads or FWODS tm.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

markpulawski said:


> Doug you obviously have not seen their latest ad, they have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and without a shred of evidence that MP stunts frogs growth....it is the theoretical equivalent of cigarette smoking in young boys, most of whom end up being jockeys. Stunted frogs without nads or FWODS tm.


Oh trust me I know it's a farce. Thing is there is an obvious explaination for their ancidotal evidence for MP/stunting/etc. at this point though I'm content to let them more in their own ignorance. The less they know at this point(unless it involves potentially harming frogs, other hobbiests, newbs, or the potential to spread lethal Amphibian diseases) the better.


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> at this point though I'm content to let them more in their own ignorance. The less they know at this point(unless it involves potentially harming frogs, other hobbiests, newbs, or the potential to spread lethal Amphibian diseases) the better.


Good point. I'm content to let them keep shooting holes in their own boat. The ignorance and outlandish claims displayed on their website is probably more harmful to their own business than any critique we can make here.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> Good point. I'm content to let them keep shooting holes in their own boat. The ignorance and outlandish claims displayed on their website is probably more harmful to their own business than any critique we can make here.


My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Bcs TX said:


> Yet more:US Dart Frog - FAQ
> 
> Do I need to test or quarantine your frogs?
> 
> Absolutely not! That is totally unnecessary with our frogs! Quarantine is good when there is a lot of frog movement in and out of inventories and importations as well as frog flipping (buying and reselling). We raise every frog from the egg. Our movement is ONLY one way, always outward. Our entire place is run by us, and only us. We do NOT take frogs in from the outside, and we do not buy and resell. Last count, even considering the winter season, we have over 2500 tads and 800 fertilized eggs and newly morphed froglets just out of the water, and the numbers are climbing. There are NO diseases in our facility, never were, and never will be. GUARANTEED! We do not let any frogs into our frog populations. For completeness, we do not buy frogs from the outside. With that said, we are considering buying back the offspring from our pairs and only our pairs. At that time we will require our customer and partner to let us know their operations, and certify they did not allow methylparaben into the food chain. Thus, if you wish to quarantine, then feel free, but it is not necessary. There is no testing needed with our frogs. Everything we sell is bred and raised under our watchful eyes, and always has been, they are ALL CLEAN and ALWAYS will be. That is part of our SAFE brand!
> 
> Scary stuff!!!!
> 
> I guess all of their frogs they have (that they bought to start this so called business) from hobbyists/breeders were raised in a "vacuum."
> Will send them an e-mail tommorow, if they answer me will let you know.


Wow that is just scary. Pretty much impossible too... They either have very little understanding of how pathogens get into collections and/or just have no ethics what so ever when it comes to making a sale. I think it is both... *One of the most BS irresponsible things I've ever heard from a animal vendor. *


----------



## Ed

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ed, I'm curious what your thoughts/comments on their methyparaben concerns are.


Hey Doug,

I would prefer if the real expert on this sort of thing commented.... Donn is by far more knowledgeable on the actual science behind the topic than I and probably far more able to give a better answer. 


As a general comment, I think they have overblown the hype to try and develop a market share using the same tactics that food companies use when marketing using words like natural.... 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## toksyn

It reminds me of Hills Science Diet and the trademark "Prescription Diet". 



Ed said:


> Hey Doug,
> 
> I would prefer if the real expert on this sort of thing commented.... Donn is by far more knowledgeable on the actual science behind the topic than I and probably far more able to give a better answer.
> 
> 
> As a general comment, I think they have overblown the hype to try and develop a market share using the same tactics that food companies use when marketing using words like natural....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

toksyn said:


> It reminds me of Hills Science Diet and the trademark "Prescription Diet".


Yep the variations are pretty much endless.. Most of it depends on an uneducated consumer base buying into the idea. Look at everything in a store that is labeled "natural" and then look at the ingredients label. There isn't any regulations covering the definition of natural with respect to food so as long as they don't outright lie, they can use it pretty much any way they choose. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Ed

I added methylparaben to the tags so it will hopefully show up on searches.. 

Ed


----------



## edwardsatc

Ed said:


> Hey Doug,
> 
> I would prefer if the real expert on this sort of thing commented.... Donn is by far more knowledgeable on the actual science behind the topic than I and probably far more able to give a better answer.
> Ed


Well, I don't know about being a "real expert". It's hard to be an expert where the body of knowledge grows by leaps and bounds on a daily basis. I prefer to think of it as experience and knowledge of content.

Anyway, here's my take on methylparaben and the Wascher claims about it:

Considering the limited nature of methylparaben toxicity studies, as a scientist, I would be hesitant to make a claim in either direction. Recently, there's been an increase in research, but a consensus is only starting to develop. Amphibian research is virtually nonexistent and there is very limited scientific study in regards to developmental toxicity. The existing body of evidence suggests the following: 

1) Acute toxicity studies in animals indicate that parabens are not significantly toxic
2) Subchronic and chronic oral studies indicate that parabens are practically nontoxic.
3) Methylparaben is the least toxic of parabens (which as a group are considered practically nontoxic).
4) Paraben toxicity is linked to chain length which is additional evidence to methylparaben being the least toxic of parabens.


As for the claims of the Wascher's, let's tackle these "claims" one at a time.


US Dart Frog website said:


> MP was designed and intended to SLOW the growth rate of fruit flies


Nothing in the literature nor in the manufacturers data suggests that methylparaben was developed for anything other than as a preservative to slow the rate of fungal growth. 




US Dart Frog website said:


> fruit flies do gut load in trace amounts, cnsidering the number of flies a frog eats that trace amount is a lot over time.


This claim does not consider metabolism and excretion in the frog nor the fly. Without knowing the of metabolism and excretion rates, such a statement is purely conjecture. 

The statement also assumes that there is considerable bioaccumulation of methylparaben in frogs. The hydrophilic nature of methylparaben (Kow = 1.9) would indicate otherwise. In fact, current evidence indicates that methylparaben is rapidly metabolized and excreted and does not accumulate in the body.

What is the dietary dose at which the flies were exposed to methylparaben. The concentration of methylparaben in the media could vary widely depending upon the user or commercial producer. 

Additionally, in order to determine the dose the frog is receiving, "trace amounts" in fruit flies must be quantified. The term "trace amounts" itself tells us nothing.




US Dart Frog website said:


> When we stopped using MP our frogs grew faster and larger!


Had this statement been made by a hobbyist, I wouldn't think much of it. It's certainly a possible and a reasonable observation. But, US Dart Frog, are now claiming to be scientists who carry out scientific research so further scrutiny of their statements is warranted.

While it's certainly possible that this is what they've observed, the anecdotal nature of these observations leaves the door open to many alternative explanations and cannot lead to their claim of "_MP is bad for frogs! DO NOT USE METHYLPARABEN MEDIA RECIPES! METHYLPARABEN STUNTS FROG GROWTH! _" There are certainly confounding factors, possible flaws in data collection and analysis, variation in environmental factors, etc. Such is the problem with a priori anecdotal evidence. 

For example, there is evidence that methylparaben may slow the growth rate of Drosophila and decrease fecundity. It's entirely possible the cessation of methylparaben use has led to greater fly yields and that the increased abundance of flies led to feeding the frogs more flies (especially considering that children were doing the feeding) or that the same number of flies were fed, but the flies had more mass than flies exposed to methylparaben. 

Additionally, it is doubtful that they collected any data when they were using methylparaben unless they already knew that it was having some effect. So what are they comparing their "No MP" data to?

*In my own experience and from a strictly anecdotal standpoint, I've never had good fly production from media with methylparaben. I've never run any sort of controlled experiment so I have no empirical evidence to back that up. Regardless, I quit using methylparaben many years ago.*




US Dart Frog website said:


> Then, we did tests to confirm.


Data? Sample size? What controls were in place? Scientists (as they now claim to be) present empirical evidence in the form of data, results, and corroboration (e.g peer reviewed literature, experiments of others, supporting evidence from other taxa, etc.), not just conclusions. 




US Dart Frog website said:


> A daily dose of MP laced media fed flies will eventually cut back on your breeding success too. The technical paper speaks of eliminating methylparaben through shedding skin, but frogs shed and eat their skin!


a) See my comments above ...

b) What "technical paper"? They provide no citation. Poor work for folks who claim to be scientists. I suspect either this paper doesn't exist or it doesn't exactly say what they claim it says. If this is the research article I think it is, it's written in Chinese (except the abstract) and I cannot find an English version ... perhaps someone in the Wascher family reads Chinese? If the Waschers (or anyone else) could show me the article in english, I'd be happy to review it in detail.

c) As I said before, methylparaben is not likely to significantly bioaccumulate in frogs and even less likely to do so in the skin. 

d) The primary metabolite of methylparaben is p-hydroxybenzoic acid which is essentially non-toxic. So, even if we assumed that the primary route of excretion was through the skin (rather than the renal system), frogs eating their shed skin would only be recirculating p-hydroxybenzoic acid, not methylparaben. 




Wait, didn't I say I was content letting them shoot holes in their own boat ...

More thoughts later ...maybe.


----------



## FroggyKnight

Thank you, Donn. That was great!

One thing I didn't notice before, how can they say that their frogs grew faster and larger when they stopped feeding with MP and at the same time say they have never used it? More wonderful lies from these guys.....

John


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

FroggyKnight said:


> Thank you, Donn. That was great!
> 
> One thing I didn't notice before, how can they say that their frogs grew faster and larger when they stopped feeding with MP and at the same time say they have never used it? More wonderful lies from these guys.....
> 
> John


And just like that, their story changes on their website. References to having NEVER used MP are gone with a new story that gives them plausible deniability.

It would actually be interesting to see someone do an actual scientific study on the effects, if any, on flies and methylparaben. An actual scientist, not the Wascher's who are anything but, could rather easily design some experiments to test various hypothesis, although I doubt their is the financial incentive or scientific merit to devote resources to such a project. It's obvious to anyone either a rudimentary understanding of science, that their claims are based on anecdotal evidence. I would actually like to know from a credible source if perhaps they actually managed to stumble onto something useful. A stopped clock is right twice a day after all.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Let's poke some more holes. They say for the frog listed first on their homepage (I forget the specie) that orange stripes are dominant in some specimens. That is false, as a dominant trait is species wide. For example, brown hair is dominant over blonde. Unless they are thinking of codominance or polygentetcism, however that would still be false. And I can tell you that this thought comes via a citing of mendels laws of genetics.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> 10. How much supplement do I add to the flies I gather before I feed? Use a plastic culture cup when gathering flies. Add just enough supplement to make them grey and so they cannot climb the side of the cup, that's it! With that said, some popular supplements are ineffective and the waste is too high. For example, Repashy Calcium Plus is a popular supplement. We used it for a while a long time ago. It is very expensive when you consider the waste fraction. In fact, paid advocates for Repashy say the junk left in the cup after feeding should be discarded. This advice not only proves the ineffectiveness, but testifies to the wastefullness as well. They don't hide it, they openly tell you to toss it out and openly say what is left over is ineffective. Believe them, but switch to another mix. (We could be a huige Repashy proponent if they reformulated it, and it worked a lot better.)


I have to just laugh at their complete lack of understanding of a very simple and fundamental husbandry issue here. Without actually explaining to them why so they can correct their ignorant statements, anyone who has been around long enough understands why you discard the "junk in the cup", and the fact that they think this somehow reflects poorly on the quality of the repashy product is laughable. There is a very good reason WHY, and it doesn't take a self proclaimed expert to understand this very basic principle. You'ld think their genius breeder would have learned something in his limited time here. 

Furthermore, if you use the repashy product correctly, you don't end up with much if any waste, I sure don't. Of course if you have your ham fisted kids running slave labor and well, doing what kids do, of course they're gonna get lazy, complacent, careless, thoughtless, etc and do it wrong, and you'll end up with a ton of waste. Blaming Repashy's products on your lack of understanding for basic dart frog husbandry is hilarious. 

Seriously folks, this genius breeder doesn't understand something as simple as why you discard the "junk in the cup"

So here is the Dilema though. Do we continue to let them leave up incorrect information and thus misinform people who might actually use information from their website? This means frogs and potentially good people could suffer because of their failure to have accurate information in proper husbandry on their site. Here is an idea Rick, how about you actually learn what you're doing before giving advice to others on how to care for darts.

I wonder what they're actually using for supplements. Go ahead Rick, change the website, laughter is good for all of us. Can't wait to see what you come up with to explain this one.

Anyone notice that nowhere on their site do they mention anything about what supplements you should be using, how often, or why? I'm sure that will change now as well, although, I have serious doubts if they'll get it right.

Now to email Allen and see how I can get paid for being an advocate for his products.


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> And just like that, their story changes on their website. References to having NEVER used MP are gone with a new story that gives them plausible deniability.


I really dislike providing the patch to repair the holes in their boat, but the disinformation bothers me more ...



ZookeeperDoug said:


> It would actually be interesting to see someone do an actual scientific study on the effects, if any, on flies and methylparaben. An actual scientist, not the Wascher's who are anything but, could rather easily design some experiments to test various hypothesis, although I doubt their is the financial incentive or scientific merit to devote resources to such a project. It's obvious to anyone either a rudimentary understanding of science, that their claims are based on anecdotal evidence. I would actually like to know from a credible source if perhaps they actually managed to stumble onto something useful. A stopped clock is right twice a day after all.


I have everything that's needed right at my fingertips (tox lab, supplies, chemicals and reagents, analytic capability, etc). The only thing that's lacking is desire.

Some supporting data already exists for flies and the studies look sound. So, I think the more interesting and valuable testing would be with the frogs.

My hunch is that they looked at the fly studies and decided that it was acceptable to extrapolate that across phyla to amphibians. Their claims for frogs mirror the effects found in fly studies.

Now back to watching them try to plug the holes with their fingers


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

It's really no skin off my back either way. There really is no harm in not using MP in cultures(assuming you don't need it for its actual intended purpose). It is just their false claims and trying to use them to make their frogs sound superior that is shady false advertising.


----------



## Ed

> It is very expensive when you consider the waste fraction. In fact, paid advocates for Repashy say the junk left in the cup after feeding should be discarded. This advice not only proves the ineffectiveness, but testifies to the wastefullness as well. They don't hide it, they openly tell you to toss it out and openly say what is left over is ineffective.



Hmmm..... I remember making the comments to not reuse the supplements left in the cup for a number of reasons including the fact that the exposure to increased moisture from the dusted invertebrates increases degredation but I am not a paid spokesperson.. That is a pretty strong mischaracterization that they are tossing out there.... 

It's a shame I'm not paid enough to see if there was a way to legally force them to divulge who they are referring to..... 
Ed


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> Well, I don't know about being a "real expert". It's hard to be an expert where the body of knowledge grows by leaps and bounds on a daily basis. I prefer to think of it as experience and knowledge of content.


Thanks Donn,

While you may no choose the word expert to describe your body of knowledge, you are much closer to that phrase than many others that I know. I for one appreciate the depth of your knowledge. 

Ed


----------



## EthanA

ZookeeperDoug said:


> And just like that, their story changes on their website. References to having NEVER used MP are gone with a new story that gives them plausible deniability.


This reminds me of George Orwell's 1984


----------



## Ed

edwardsatc said:


> My hunch is that they looked at the fly studies and decided that it was acceptable to extrapolate that across phyla to amphibians. Their claims for frogs mirror the effects found in fly studies.


I think your giving them a little too much credit... I suspect they are mining the studies and discussions here on the forum for some of their information.. 
see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...publication-pdfs-carotenoids.html#post1564690 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## easternversant

Dr. Lotters may or may not have received an email about their 'expert understanding' section openly stealing and publishing his work.

Personally I think that he should take Wascher to court for what is both obvious copyright infringement and blatantly misusing Stefan's work for their own gain. However, that is likely a ton of work that he doesn't need.

Either way, I strongly suspect that it will come down from the site.


----------



## Boondoggle

ZookeeperDoug said:


> It's really no skin off my back either way. There really is no harm in not using MP in cultures(assuming you don't need it for its actual intended purpose). ...


Oh, sure, you say that now but what happens when they patent the process of not adding MP to cultures and we all have to legally use it?


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Boondoggle said:


> Oh, sure, you say that now but what happens when they patent the process of not adding MP to cultures and we all have to legally use it?


I know this is meant to be sarcastic, but that statement just makes no sense,


----------



## Boondoggle

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I know this is meant to be sarcastic, but that statement just makes no sense,


Um...just a reference to the fact that they attempt to trademark many processes that are ridiculous as well as those that are standard practice for hobbyists. The humorous conceit presented was that they could trademark the idea of not using methylparaben in a fruit fly culture, as they seem to champion, thus forcing those who do not currently use it (likely the majority of the hobby) to, instead, include methylparaben in their own homemade cultures or risk trademark infringement and the implied threat of litigation. 

It was supposed to make you snicker. Your mileage may vary.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Boondoggle said:


> Um...just a reference to the fact that they attempt to trademark many processes that are ridiculous as well as those that are standard practice for hobbyists. The humorous conceit presented was that they could trademark the idea of not using methylparaben in a fruit fly culture, as they seem to champion, thus forcing those who do not currently use it (likely the majority of the hobby) to, instead, include methylparaben in their own homemade cultures or risk trademark infringement and the implied threat of litigation.
> 
> It was supposed to make you snicker. Your mileage may vary.


I think you're confused at how a trademark vs a patent works.

And personally I don't thing anyone really cares about their silly trademarks or patents. Nobody wants to even be remotely associated with their silly made up frog names or their products. Basically they wasted a whole lot of time and money to tradmark and patent something that nobody would bother to use because it is useless and probably actually harmful.

I mean let's think about this:

You want to market a fly median you know and have seen ads for quality media like Superfly and one for Flydoh. You have read this thread, you know the Wascher's lack of credibility. Which one are you more likely to emulate or at least compare yourself to? 

How about frogs, are you going to advertise them properly for what they are or compare or even claim They're Malibu or Neon or whatever absurd names the USdARTfrog trademarked. No, the last thing you want anyone associating your frogs with is the Wascher's frogs.

There is no need for any of their trademarks because nobody would ever want to use them.


----------



## Boondoggle

Agreed on all points. To be honest I'm just treading water here until they say something new that's ridiculous. 

I think there was a point where they could have saved credibility because some of their ideas had...well, not necessarily merit, but were harmless enough and would likely appeal to a noobie (like freezable media with the water already added, teabags full of isopod food, cheap tadpole kits, the ability to request a frog with specific characteristics). I mean, none of that is groundbreaking but it's harmless enough and they probably could have floated on that with the new buyers until they were around long enough to actually have some good ideas. Their prices were cheap and even if they are exaggerating their stock by half they still have a ton of frogs. 

But, my God, the lies and hubris,,,sheesh. They back down on nothing, no matter what the evidence. Get caught in a lie, slap a lie on top of it!


----------



## edwardsatc

So, in an apparent response to my commentary on methylparaben toxicity they've taken down their "No MP" tab and replaced it with a small link to this garbage:

http://safedartfrogs.com/Articles/Methylparaben-is-bad.pdf

This new page for methylparaben is an assemblage of eHow articles written by a authors with degrees in architecture, computer systems, communications, and journalism. Really? eHow? The articles contain numerous errors, myths and misconceptions not supported by the primary literature, and no specific references to the primary literature. 

Two words our buddy Rick ... *primary literature*. In science we use peer-reviewed primary literature to support our claims and further support our own experimental conclusions . We do not use Wikipedia, eHow, Yahoo answers, Ask Billy Bob, etc. 

Of course, reviewing the primary literature often takes a considerable amount of time and an understanding of the underlying concepts, principals, theories, and laws. (So what the hell, let's let an architect do it for us in an eHow article right?) Had you bothered to read the primary lit, you'd understand that the the claims that you've made in regard to the effects of MP on frogs and much of your supporting literature (e.g Wikipedia, eHow) is simply NOT supported by current toxicological or epidemiological studies. 

A few more words for you Rick ... empirical evidence, scientific method, peer review, and finally ... *ethics*. Yes, I know *ethics* is a foreign word to a lawyer but, now that you're a "scientist", you should probably investigate what that word means. Heck, maybe you can look it up on eHow ...


----------



## carola1155

***Alright everyone... Here's a little pro tip***

If you are posting something that you then have to follow up with something like: "I'm sure the mods are going to remove this" 

*DON'T POST IT*

You just end up making more work for us for no reason. We *will* start giving infractions for this kind of stuff instead of just removing it like we usually do. 

*Additionally:*
STOP the religion conversation.

Read the tagline for this forum. It says: "Your source for dart frog information". It does not say "Your place to come debate the philosophical implications of religion on business practices". Talk about how this business affects the hobby. Talk about their husbandry.Talk about the bad science they are implementing... That's all fine. 

Just leave religion out of this conversation. *Next person to bring it up will get time off.*


----------



## Ed

FrogZoo said:


> I wanted to chime in and clarify a few things. The fact that some (or all) frogs have secretions is of little concern to us and our use of SAFE as a trademark. The trademark SAFE is used, as our trademark, for "captive bred amphibians". A trademark designates source and is not descriptive. In your post it seems you suggest the trademark is being used descriptively. It is not, and in fact the entire world could use safe for dart fogs descriptively, and we ENCOURAGE it.
> 
> The entire purpose behind adopting the trademark, and yes there is a registration application filed, is to educate the consumer that we are a source of captive bred dart frogs. We could have used NOTOX or something like that, but we liked SAFE. On the "Spectrum of Distinctiveness" of trademark law, it falls in the suggestive and registrable category, not descriptive for the secretion reason you mentioned. Thanks for the help drawing the distinction.


From their website 


> U.S. Dart Frog is the only source for SAFE® captive bred dart frogs and tadpoles in the United States! Our SAFE brand frogs ARE completely and totally harmless, perfectly healthy, 100% non-toxic, absolutely beautiful, fun, and they live for 15 years or more


Interesting how the initial claims for the usage of the word safe as a trademark has changed from the initial claims to the website.

As I noted a long time ago in this thread, the fact that they lack most or all of the alkaloids that are sequestered from invertebrates that consumed the alkaloid or it's precursors from plant, it does not mean that the frogs do not produce other toxic peptides. There is a somewhat infamous example of a person deliberately ingesting secretions from an upset terribilis and suffering symptoms. This is also before we get to the established fact that amphibians are known carriers of strains of bacteria that are known to cause significant illnesses in people... 

This is even before we get to the claims that they live for 15 years or more. While a small portion of dendrobatids do live beyond 15 years, the median age according the recorded data is far short of that claim. There is a significant difference when claiming, they "may" do something and the phrasing used in the claims. 

Some comments

Ed


----------



## Bcs TX

Here are my e-mails and response from Rick, enough time has passed that I really doubt they will reply. 
From: Beth Sims
Date: February 20, 2014 at 7:21:01 AM CST
To: "<[email protected]>" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Contact Us Submitted

Hi Rick,
My question is not answered by those links.
Do you test your frogs for parasites, rana and Chytrid? 


Elizabeth

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 19, 2014, at 9:28 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:

Science|
Frog Names|
SAFE®|
FAQ and Tips|

Hi Elizabeth! The information you request is found at the links set forth above.

Rick
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Contact Us Submitted
From: elizabeth
Date: Wed, February 19, 2014 8:00 pm
To: [email protected]

Contact Name: Elizabeth Carpenter-Sims 
Phone: 214
Email Address: elizabeth
Comments or Questions: Wondering about your 100% "safe" and health guarantee per you website, can you elaborate?

Thanks!


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Beth, I'm not surprised they won't respond to an honest question. 

He'll even some of the big name sponsors here that I have asked have gibpven me honest candid answers yes or no.

What does DFW have to hide? If you're going to make big bold statements about 100% safe and healthy you should be prepared to back that up.


----------



## Bcs TX

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Beth, I'm not surprised they won't respond to an honest question.
> 
> He'll even some of the big name sponsors here that I have asked have gibpven me honest candid answers yes or no.
> 
> What does DFW have to hide? If you're going to make big bold statements about 100% safe and healthy you should be prepared to back that up.


Exactly! Was curious if they would respond with "more info" figured they wouldn't but gave them the benefit of the doubt (I knew they were full of BS wanted to see it in black and white). 
Like John I think more e-mails to them with questions are in order. Their "game" of marketing and unproven promises need more black and white responses. Tough with Lawyers.... For them to say 100% disease free and safe and not to quarantine because of their "guarantees" is insane.
Maybe a "sample" is in order...


----------



## InvertaHerp

Okay, what the hell?!?!


There are generally two types of scientists, the theoretical and the applied. Many times there is conflict between the two, simply because the applied scientists coming from many techical disciplines. *On that basis, and knowing the US Dart Frog family has bred and raised literally thousands of captive bred, no poison dart frogs in house, we have a unique perspective and leadership as practical scientists and hope the theoretical find the humility the Lord speaks of to learn something new.*


----------



## Dane

InvertaHerp said:


> Okay, what the hell?!?!
> 
> 
> There are generally two types of scientists, the theoretical and the applied. Many times there is conflict between the two, simply because the applied scientists coming from many techical disciplines. *On that basis, and knowing the US Dart Frog family has bred and raised literally thousands of captive bred, no poison dart frogs in house, we have a unique perspective and leadership as practical scientists and hope the theoretical find the humility the Lord speaks of to learn something new.*


Is that an actual quote from their site? Grammatically it sounds like it was written by someone speaking English as a second (or third) language.


----------



## phender

I love that they infer that *we* find humility, when they appear to have none what so ever.


----------



## InvertaHerp

Dane said:


> Is that an actual quote from their site? Grammatically it sounds like it was written by someone speaking English as a second (or third) language.


Sadly, yes, yes it is


----------



## Frog Town

I first saw the website for this company several months ago and thought it weird the emphasis of the word safe and the kooky common names they had given the frogs. It lead me to believe they were trying to mass market to the general pet market. Apparently this is what they are trying to do.

I myself have only been raising dart frogs for the last two years and from what I've read in the responses, this Dillon Wascher has been at it about the same length of time. It's not for me to say who should be allowed to start a dart frog business but some of the things I've been reading about these people are very disturbing, particularly their intention to breed different morphs together; that and the arrogance of trying to trademark the non-usage of MP and other ridiculous things. I still consider myself a beginner and I'm still learning about dart frogs and the the man-made environments we create for them, but there's one thing I do know, and that is I don't want to buy a frog that somewhere down the line breeds and produces little Frankenstein monsters.


----------



## carola1155

*Had to do a bit of cleanup...*

Please see my warning here:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse-139.html#post1786386

Infractions are going to be issued going forward for anything that violates this.

I also cleaned up a couple other things that were basically off topic. Please stick to the facts and quit making insinuations. I know a lot of things have gotten by in this thread in the past, but it is getting old and the longer this thread gets the more important it is that it stays absolutely on-topic. There is some great information here, do not take away from it by adding useless stuff for your own amusement. 

*Last but not least...*
The next person that "accidentally" misspells a certain name will be hearing from the Mod staff. It also is getting old.

Opened back up... don't make me regret it please.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Thanks for reopen ing this Tom. I'll try not to let you down.

Now to the meat, they're still posting garbage on their website. For starters:



> Myths and Nonsense
> This section will dispel the myths and nonsense around these frogs. Ex: a big name says don't handle captive bred poison dart frogs because: "...they have thin, easily damaged skin." NONSENSE! Their skin is not "easily damaged", handle with care, enjoy!


Now they're advocating for their poor ignorant and misinformed customers to "handle with care?" I pity their customers and the frogs that DFW seems hell bent on sending to their deaths.

Yet another reason they should have sent their genius breeder to school and further proof that they have no clue about amphibian anatomy or husbandry. I wonder if they actually understand the actual rationale for not handling amphibians in general.


It is as if, at this point they're just making stuff up to be spiteful, because I find it difficult to believe that anyone, even Rick can be this wrong, ignorant, and misinformed.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

And then is of course this drivel.



> If two polymorphic frogs like tinctorius or auratus, differing in appearance breed within their own species, (e.g., frog A having appearance (phenotype) A breeds with frog B having appearance (phenotype) B, not the same as A, but frog A and frog B are of the same species (e.g., tinctorius or auratus)) meaning they have INTRAbred (i.e., inside their species) and NOT INTERbred (i.e., outside their species), their offspring will be hybrid (i.e., unable to reproduce), weak, sickly, smaller than the parents, not as healthy, less active, less social, less bold, prone to problems, or even less secure so as to bully the younger frogs,...etc., is TOTAL AND UTTER NONSENSE! Still, there are people that do not believe Lotters et al., and yet have never indulged in the applied science to prove or disprove them.
> 
> TRUTH: When two polymorphic frogs like tinctorius or auratus, differing in appearance, breed within their own species, (e.g., frog A having appearance (phenotype) A breeds with frog B having appearance (phenotype) B, not the same as A, but frog A and frog B are of the same species (e.g., tinctorius or auratus)) meaning they have INTRAbred (i.e., inside their species) and NOT INTERbred (i.e., outside their species), as compared to their parents the offspring are stronger, larger, just as healthy, perfectly able to reproduce, are more athletic and active, more bold, and more secure with no bullying of younger frogs whatsoever!
> 
> SCIENTIFIC CONCLUSION: It is irrefutable that Tinctorius and Auratus are polymorphic, the leading scientists Lotters et al. are right, and the hobby names for dart frogs are not inidicative of any subspecies just as Lotters et al., said years ago. Miost of this is not a surpise, becaue the Auaratus are named for the phenotype, e.g., green & black, blue & black, green & bronze, etc. Technical paper to follow.


They claim to be scientists, but lack even the most fundamental understanding of the various sciences involved. There is sooo much wrong with all of this. We've already pretty much picked this UTTER NONSENSE apart previously. They've just rebranded it, shuffled it around, and in a further attempt to confuse and misinform their customers and to justify their actions.

This though should be a clear indication that they are actually mixing morphs, and that nobody can trust any frog that ever comes from them.

As for the technical paper, Rick, I CANT WAIT!!!!! No seriously the suspense is killing me. Hurry up and publish that bad boy.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

BTW - There is a case right now, where Petco is being sued because someone's 10 year old *DIED* from Rat bite fever after exposure to an infected rat sold by petco.

http://www.komonews.com/news/nation...rat-family-sues-Petco-247170211.html?mobile=y

If you're going to make all kinds of assurances, promises, implications, etc about the health and safety of your animals, you had better be god damn sure they are, because people are just stupid enough to believe those assurances and if your irresponsible actions result in the death of someone's child because they believe your LIES there will be hell to pay.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I find it difficult to believe that anyone, even Rick can be this wrong, ignorant, and misinformed.


Here`s where your wrong Doug.

All kidding aside, I will tip my hat to you. I don`t know how anyone can even stomach
looking at their web site anymore.
I didn`t think about those clowns once the entire time this thread was closed.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Here`s where your wrong Doug.
> 
> All kidding aside, I will tip my hat to you. I don`t know how anyone can even stomach
> looking at their web site anymore.
> I didn`t think about those clowns once the entire time this thread was closed.


Well it is quite the bit of comedy, their website that is.

And while I respectfully understand what you're saying, I still think that DFW is one of the most serious threats our hobby has faced in a long time. The astounding level of ignorance and misinformation that they spew is reprehensible. They stand poised to hurt people and potentially off of the hobby for good. In contrast, if their potential customers find good honest people willing to educate them and not lie to them, they may turn into lifelong hobbyists. This is important to me.

What's really pitiful, especially for the wascher children, is that with a few tweaks and responsible information, they could have been a decent business with a chance of success. Instead they choose to be obstinate and alienate themself.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Thanks for reopen ing this Tom. I'll try not to let you down.
> 
> Now to the meat, they're still posting garbage on their website. For starters:
> 
> 
> 
> Now they're advocating for their poor ignorant and misinformed customers to "handle with care?" I pity their customers and the frogs that DFW seems hell bent on sending to their deaths.
> 
> Yet another reason they should have sent their genius breeder to school and further proof that they have no clue about amphibian anatomy or husbandry. I wonder if they actually understand the actual rationale for not handling amphibians in general.
> 
> 
> It is as if, at this point they're just making stuff up to be spiteful, because I find it difficult to believe that anyone, even Rick can be this wrong, ignorant, and misinformed.


I've talked about this some before, but this is something they've repeatedly done regularly that sticks in my craw ...

* They have no problem spinning the facts to suit their own agenda.* They know people like to handle lizards or snakes and are often turned off when they find out they can't "pet" their pet frog... So what do they do?... they make it sound like you actually can pet your frog regularly if you are careful and that this will be perfectly safe for you and the animal. 

They even sneek in that "handle with care" so if something happens they can come back and say we said "be careful", but they seem to have no moral/ethical problem leading naive people into believing certain behaviors or husbandry practices are safe and acceptable when they actually aren't, or at the very least are more risky for inexperienced keepers. Just more evidence that this is about the money, not the animals for them. 

Basically these people seem to be (IMO) out to dupe the most naive people in or just entering the hobby, and are shameless in their marketing tactics.* Sleazy*... is the word that comes to mind.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

And just like that, Myths is changed to this:



> A new trend is emerging with sellers of dart frogs who do not breed and raise the offspring they sell to you. In principle, this is simply a different business model and nothing to be alarmed about, but in practice there is no way for that seller to attest to the quality of the frogs they sell. Thus, request a health guarantee. Moreover, do not trust imported frogs unless they come with a quality guarantee! Still, you get what they get if you buy from a seller and not a breeder. Look for "captive BRED dart frogs", not just "captive dart frogs". ALL of our frogs are captive bred by us and we stand firmly behind our quality! Still, when quality and price are covered, don't be afraid to ask questions of every dart frog seller. You will be surpised by some of the responses, or even an avoidance of the questions altogether.


Ironically,it seems like this is written about themselves and best describes their business and not that of hobbyists or other breeders. When Beth asked DFW to back up their health guarantee they ignored her. We have not been afraid to ask Questions of the Wascher's and DFW and we're certainly not surprised by their responses, or the avoidance of those questions altogether.

I still hope you publish that technical paper. I've read your other "book". (No really I did, that was painful). Hell think of it this way, if you do post it, we will proofread it for you, correct all the grammatical and spelling errors, fix all the scientific principles you manipulate or don't understand, etc.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> And just like that, Myths is changed to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Ironically,it seems like this is written about themselves and best describes their business and not that of hobbyists or other breeders. When Beth asked DFW to back up their health guarantee they ignored her. We have not been afraid to ask Questions of the Wascher's and DFW and we're certainly not surprised by their responses, or the avoidance of those questions altogether.
> 
> I still hope you publish that technical paper. I've read your other "book". (No really I did, that was painful). Hell think of it this way, if you do post it, we will proofread it for you, correct all the grammatical and spelling errors, fix all the scientific principles you manipulate or don't understand, etc.


When I read that guaruntee stuff from them I can't help but think of that Tommy boy movie...

*"Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will."*

Spin spin spin.... They just keep reinventing the wheel and then try to steal credit or try to make their competition (who are mostly pretty well respected) out to be the bad guys trying to take advantage of you... when in fact they are the ones feeding the noobs BS and marking a guarantee on the deli cup they serve it in. Again... *Sleazy*


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Well it is quite the bit of comedy, their website that is.


Some great new "comedy" on their Science page. A new list of "facts":

Science - Expert Understanding


----------



## JayMillz

I know there's several hundred typos on their website. But I think the most important one for people that are new in the hobby is every spot where they claim to be scientists and they talk about their science experiments. I think Rick is intentionally misspelling the word "Pseudoscience" - a discipline or approach that pretends to be or has a close resemblance to science. But that's been obvious due to any lack of actual data or communication in general to allow anybody else to repeat what they are claiming. 

Rick claims any word could have been chosen for their trademark, any arbitrary word, and they landed on the word "safe" somehow. To me, that would be no different than a prostitute trademarking her body as "safe"...

Now, based on a wicked personal experience this weekend, I can vouch that anyone claiming that CB frogs are safe and harmless is a liar. I don't want to derail this thread, but if anyone reading this is actually doing any kind of legitimate studies on this subject, shoot me a PM and I will provide you with as many details as I can. For anyone else that just wants the TLDR version...terribilis & worst headache imaginable.


----------



## carola1155

10 Posts? Seriously? That's all we were able to go?

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse-150.html#post1810650 - First Warning
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse-139.html#post1786386 - Second Warning

Three strikes and you're out. 

*This thread is now closed indefinitely.*

***3/5/2014 this thread is back open. No more infractions for off-topic posts, just immediate time off. I've now closed it twice... next time will be permanent. Please don't put me in that position.***


----------



## Mantella71

"The World English Dictionary defines "scientist" as "a person who studies or practises any of the sciences or who uses scientific methods", and we all certainly do that here! "

Really, what scientific methods? Young Frankenstein was a scientist, hilarious.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

carola1155 said:


> ***3/5/2014 this thread is back open. No more infractions for off-topic posts, just immediate time off. I've now closed it twice... next time will be permanent. Please don't put me in that position.***


*Folks, PLEASE abide by this. I know it is easy to take pot shots. In the end, if this thread gets locked, all it does is benefit DFW*


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Now, on to some real meat.

This is new.



> Some people like to keep their frogs in groups. To do so will require frogs that do not behave aggressively toward one another. The best frogs are those that have been raised together, or in groups throughout their earlier life, AND fed regularly. Their fighting is not so much for real estate as it is for dominance in a survival type situation where they are not familiar with other frogs and food shortages are possible. If the frogs are raised with other frogs throughout their life they are VERY desensitized to group issues and even enjoy the company. Add regular feedings and care, and the interventions alone do a great job to get the frogs accustomed to one another and no turf wars. Our frogs are PERFECT for groups, and yes even as adults. The photograph below is of a 55 gallon tank we put together for a recent trip to show some kids the cool frogs. Males and females alike have been in this tank since mid-January 2014, less than two (2) months as of the date of this writing. They are THRIVING together! They love the company, touch each other as friends, and eat side by side.
> 
> How do other people get this wrong and advocate mayhem scenarios with multiple adult frogs? Two things, either they do not have the experience with thousands of frogs and many groups (most likely because even if they have been in the hobby for years), or their frogs are simply under cared for making them behave aggressively in a survival manner. Ours are pets, well cared for, and fun!


1.) They actually think 2 months of living together is somehow successful. Problems have barely had time to develop. In the picture, I can actually see a couple problems already. I'm sure their expert eye has already caught it though.

Go to their site and look at the picture, it's an embarrassment. I would be ashamed spot showcase that vivarium as their work and it has nothing to do with the mixture of tincs. It's just hideous. Fake plants, cheep aquarium background, sticks from the backyard. If you're going to share a pic, at least clean the glass.

2.) So apparently the reason why people can't keep mixed tanks without aggression is because we've been doing it wrong the whole time? The Wascher's figured it out in two years. It's actually our lack of experience that fails us. If only we had the experience of rearing thousands of frogs were not properly caring for them or it would work just fine.

3.) It is no wonder they don't advocate using mag leaves. If you're packing that many adult frogs into that tiny space, of course you're going to have a ton of feces building up. I count at least 12 frogs large tincs in a 55....

Thankfully though, they've posted a picture of an actual vivarium that they set up. It is proof positive of their poor husbandry practices, inexperience and shines a bright light on the fact that for all their double talk, they really don't have a clue.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

They also briefly announced that they would be vending at 3 shows but quickly took down the link after some heat on other forums.

I wonder why you wouldn't want to openly advertise what shows you plan to vend at on your own website....

Here are the shows.

Repticon Nashville Page


Repticon Memphis Page


As well as

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nashville-Exotic-Pet-Expo/583524451677909

They used to be listed for the NEPO on their web page but are no longer listed. Either they pulled out or got booted. The link is still listed on their Facebook page saying they would vend.

Hopefully some of our members will go introduce themselves.


----------



## Giga

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Now, on to some real meat.
> 
> This is new.
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) They actually think 2 months of living together is somehow successful. Problems have barely had time to develop. In the picture, I can actually see a couple problems already. I'm sure their expert eye has already caught it though.
> 
> Go to their site and look at the picture, it's an embarrassment. I would be ashamed spot showcase that vivarium as their work and it has nothing to do with the mixture of tincs. It's just hideous. Fake plants, cheep aquarium background, sticks from the backyard. If you're going to share a pic, at least clean the glass.
> 
> 2.) So apparently the reason why people can't keep mixed tanks without aggression is because we've been doing it wrong the whole time? The Wascher's figured it out in two years. It's actually our lack of experience that fails us. If only we had the experience of rearing thousands of frogs were not properly caring for them or it would work just fine.
> 
> 3.) It is no wonder they don't advocate using mag leaves. If you're packing that many adult frogs into that tiny space, of course you're going to have a ton of feces building up. I count at least 12 frogs large tincs in a 55....
> 
> Thankfully though, they've posted a picture of an actual vivarium that they set up. It is proof positive of their poor husbandry practices, inexperience and shines a bright light on the fact that for all their double talk, they really don't have a clue.



It's kinda hard to look at that 55 and not be mad and feel for the frogs as well. It's almost like a puppy mill. There living creature and despite all their bragging they seem to be mistreating the animals. I building a 151 gallon viv and it's only getting say 6 frogs. I really feel for though frogs. This is also to note that they are teaching this to kids, that "this is ok"(though there seem to be a lot of false stories on their site, so who knows if there actually teaching). I'm starting to really get irritated with this.


----------



## Amphinityfrogs

ZookeeperDoug said:


> They also briefly announced that they would be vending at 3 shows but quickly took down the link after some heat on other forums.
> 
> I wonder why you wouldn't want to openly advertise what shows you plan to vend at on your own website....
> 
> Here are the shows.
> 
> Repticon Nashville Page
> 
> 
> Repticon Memphis Page
> 
> 
> As well as
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nashville-Exotic-Pet-Expo/583524451677909
> 
> They used to be listed for the NEPO on their web page but are no longer listed. Either they pulled out or got booted. The link is still listed on their Facebook page saying they would vend.
> 
> Hopefully some of our members will go introduce themselves.


We will be vending at the Nashville show. I am scared and interested to see their table. I am not looking forward to explaining to people the contradictions between what I say and what they say. I am also not looking forward to talking to them. I'm sure they will make their way to my table.


----------



## Giga

Amphinityfrogs said:


> We will be vending at the Nashville show. I am scared and interested to see their table. I am not looking forward to explaining to people the contradictions between what I say and what they say. I am also not looking forward to talking to them. I'm sure they will make their way to my table.


Bring a camera to take pictures of their booth? Can we do that?


----------



## Aldross

Giga said:


> Bring a camera to take pictures of their booth? Can we do that?


I 2nd this. I would love to see what it looks like. Whats nice about living in St.Louis is I very much doubt that they will show up at a show run by Nabors.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

Giga said:


> Bring a camera to take pictures of their booth? Can we do that?


What I would really like is for someone who really really really knows their stuff to show up and ask them the really hard tough questions. Politely and respectfully of course. While wearing a go pro or while someone records the answers. I want to be clear, I'm advocating for a peaceful exchange. Be especially cordial if Rick hides behind his children and allows them to run the DFW vendor booth.

Something like the Bill Nye vs Ken Ham debate.

Of course what I think has already happened is that were limiting another venue for potential sales. I speculate they opted out of at least one show already and pulled the show link from their website for fear of scrutiny by hobbyists who might attend the shows and ask them hard questions they really are unprepared to defend.

I will be reaching out to the shows I previously listed to verify if DFW is vending and if so I will voice my concerns. I encourage others to do the same.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

> If we understand the question, we can restate it this way: Are any of your frogs you (U.S. Dart Frog) sell or offer for sale or even give away, the result of any mixture of a variety of tinctorius, or auratus, etc., as the case may be, rather than same species, same variety parents? The answer is no! Absolutely not. Each and every frog we sell is from solid, well respected hobby lines revered by the hobby itself, and bred true to variety. Thus, any and all anomalies in the lines are prior to our taking possession of the parents we purchased from the best known breeders out there. Also, the purity of the lines we started with as breeding stock are entirely dependent on the purity obtained from those best known, well-known, breeders as our supplier. We bought our original breeder frogs from many, all reputable, sources. Each and every transaction was diligently recorded, all documented, and verifiable, but we do not share that data because it is an investment in our breeding program. Stated another way, all of our Classic and Signature line frogs are PURE in the sense the same variety parents were bred (e.g., azureus with azureus, Oyapok with Oyapok, Highland Bronze with Highland Bronze, green & bronze with green & bronze, etc.)
> 
> "Designer Frogs" are frogs produced from different, same species parents. For example, a Designer Frog may be the offspring of same species, different variety, parents such as a cobalt and an azureus. We do not sell Designer Frogs, but if we ever do we will be very open and proclaim the mixed nature of those frogs as Designer Frogs in order to eliminate the possibility of confusion.


It seems they are trying to completely backtrack on the whole mixed species, hybrid, designer frog issue they had so proudly tried to champion and defend not so long ago.

Most if not all of the references to Lotters and their other nonsensical justifications are gone.

Of course now it seems they're trying to blame any "anomalies" on the people they purchased from.

Lastly, it is ironic and hypocritical that they seem to still want to remain secretive about the source information. That is of course very valuable and important information for anyone to have. The responsible approach is to share that information. There is no reason not to. Refusing to share that information with those who buy frogs from them makes those frogs essentially worthless. You wouldn't buy a Southern Variabilis from me if that's all I told you it was. I can and am willing to share it's lineage information, who I purchased my founding stock from, etc. for every single one of my frogs. In fact, when I sell any frog or group of frogs, I pass that information on wether or not it was requested and impress upon my customers the importance of retaining that information.

In the case of DFW their clients are left with a frog whose linage information cannot be reliably traced because of the dubious nature of the breeders. This results in uncertainty and devalues the animals.. Why anyone would want to buy a frog from them without the exchange of relevant information, when they can just as easily get better frogs, of higher quality, from respected breeders who will share information is beyond me.


----------



## carola1155

Alright, one person already has a day off. Every subsequent offense is just going to get longer and longer ban times from the site. 

Here's a little compilation of all my reminders in this thread for those of you that are too lazy to pay attention:



carola1155 said:


> Alright everyone... we have been letting this run quite a bit but...
> 
> *This is a formal reminder that you need to obey the User Agreement.*
> 
> 
> 
> This is the one and only warning regarding this stuff. Please keep it clean. We (obviously) dont want to close this thread but we will if we have to.
> 
> Thank you,





carola1155 said:


> Yes, lets please keep posts as informative/relevant as possible. Unnecessary "bump" posts are just going to be deleted going forward.
> 
> Thank you.





carola1155 said:


> ***Reminder***
> Off topic pictures/memes/videos are NOT permitted. If they keep getting posted, this thread will be closed.





carola1155 said:


> ***Alright everyone... Here's a little pro tip***
> 
> If you are posting something that you then have to follow up with something like: "I'm sure the mods are going to remove this"
> 
> *DON'T POST IT*
> 
> You just end up making more work for us for no reason. We *will* start giving infractions for this kind of stuff instead of just removing it like we usually do.
> 
> *Additionally:*
> STOP the religion conversation.
> 
> Read the tagline for this forum. It says: "Your source for dart frog information". It does not say "Your place to come debate the philosophical implications of religion on business practices". Talk about how this business affects the hobby. Talk about their husbandry.Talk about the bad science they are implementing... That's all fine.
> 
> Just leave religion out of this conversation. *Next person to bring it up will get time off.*





carola1155 said:


> *Had to do a bit of cleanup...*
> 
> Please see my warning here:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/southeast/136258-dart-frog-warehouse-139.html#post1786386
> 
> Infractions are going to be issued going forward for anything that violates this.
> 
> I also cleaned up a couple other things that were basically off topic. Please stick to the facts and quit making insinuations. I know a lot of things have gotten by in this thread in the past, but it is getting old and the longer this thread gets the more important it is that it stays absolutely on-topic. There is some great information here, do not take away from it by adding useless stuff for your own amusement.
> 
> *Last but not least...*
> The next person that "accidentally" misspells a certain name will be hearing from the Mod staff. It also is getting old.





carola1155 said:


> ***3/5/2014 this thread is back open. No more infractions for off-topic posts, just immediate time off. I've now closed it twice... next time will be permanent. Please don't put me in that position.***


*I have been more than fair (and lenient) to this point. I don't care what your intentions are with any outside references or any references to religion. I can guarantee whatever you meant will be misinterpreted by someone else and I will end up getting a complaint about it. Keep things off topic or get banned. End of story.*


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Most if not all of the references to Lotters and their other nonsensical justifications are gone.


It's all still there. It's just less prominent. Look at the links at the bottom of the homepage and you'll find it.



ZookeeperDoug said:


> It seems they are trying to completely backtrack on the whole mixed species, hybrid, designer frog issue they had so proudly tried to champion and defend not so long ago.


But still leaving the door wide open to it ....



US Dart Frog website said:


> but if we ever do we will be very open and proclaim the mixed nature of those frogs as Designer Frogs in order to eliminate the possibility of confusion.


----------



## easternversant

http://safedartfrogs.com/images/TincTank.jpg

Guess the cat is out of the bag about mixing...


----------



## aspidites73

Rather interesting. I had an email conversation with Rick several weeks ago where I made the point that without a degree in one of the biological sciences, he was NOT a scientist and, therefore not qualified to debate scientific issues (ie. the Lotters text he seems to love). I just glanced over his site and, low and behold, he has now defined his family as scientists. Way to paraphrase the dictionary, Rick!

About Us - SAFE brand dart frogs


----------



## markpulawski

I wonder if they ever watched Frankenstein?


----------



## mjahnke

One of the tinctorius in that photo looks like a cross to me...

To me it looks like that tank was just thrown together. That many adult tincs would produce A LOT of poop in 2 months. That tank just looks to clean, even if it does look like something you'd see at a Petco.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

easternversant said:


> http://safedartfrogs.com/images/TincTank.jpg
> 
> Guess the cat is out of the bag about mixing...


Is it me or do some of the frogs in that tank look photoshopped?


----------



## Boondoggle

Posted under the picture of 12 large adult tincs of at least 6 different varieties in a very sparsely planted tank (in the FAQ)

"Our frogs are PERFECT for groups, and yes even as adults. The photograph below is of a 55 gallon tank we put together for a recent trip to show some kids the cool frogs. Males and females alike have been in this tank since mid-January 2014, less than two (2) months as of the date of this writing. We are studying their behavioor and for now, there is no sign of agression whasoever. Pundits don't like this type o festing, but jump to conclusions and say it can't work, but it is. Why is the "tank" planted this way, diaplay only. The frogs are encouraged to interact and easily viewable. They are THRIVING together! They love the company, touch each other as friends, and eat side by side. 

I'm not even sure what to comment on specifically, I just wanted to have this somewhere else so when they take it down and spin things a different direction it's still in print. That last sentence may be the least scientific statement ever made. They have chosen some of the hardiest frogs available and while botching their care, have somehow convinced themselves that the by virtue of the fact that they haven't killed them in 2 months they are right and conventional logic is a myth. I would love to see them try this with some "non-beginner" frogs. Actually, scratch that, I would not.


----------



## aspidites73

they are photoshopped

FotoForensics - Analysis


----------



## Boondoggle

aspidites73 said:


> they are photoshopped
> 
> FotoForensics - Analysis


I can't pretend to be able to interpret the results of the FotoForensic, but if you are correct that would really bump them from "incompetent and over our heads" to "fraudulent". That's kind of a whole different thing. 

I read the tutorial on the site posted, but I'm still a bit unsure. How do you know it's shopped?


----------



## InvertaHerp

Designer pet frogs are coming soon.........


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I`m not buying that picture for a second.
That lone Azureus looks like it was just placed there, and there`s no way in hell that group
of frogs would be sitting there piled up on each other. You can even see some of the frogs colors run into each other.
It`s more childish than their spelling errors.


----------



## hamz77

I'm a fan of that sticker background and the plastic plants.


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## Dendro Dave

Boondoggle said:


> I can't pretend to be able to interpret the results of the FotoForensic, but if you are correct that would really bump them from "incompetent and over our heads" to "fraudulent". That's kind of a whole different thing.
> 
> I read the tutorial on the site posted, but I'm still a bit unsure. How do you know it's shopped?


Same for me...

When you hover over the two fotoforensic pics they look pretty much identical. Also visual markers like frogs stepping on each other, that azureus on the left partially under a leaf, no green/blue fuzz where two image elements meet, and all the water spots superimposed over the frogs, uniform white balance, lighting, and the fact that is basically how a viv and frogs look when you take a pic in a viv without much flash...* indicate to me the picture is real*

So we need someone who can explain the fotoforensic data to us...

Anyway while I think the pic is real, I wouldn't put anything past these people. That is not good husbandry, and 2 months is nothing... They are just doing this now to screw with us (IMO), and take advantage of new people (IMO).

*"Designer Frogs"*...

Well I don't know about anyone else, but I think of designer darts as any purposely made and perpetuated unnatural color/patterned/hybrid dart frogs, same species or not. So *hybrids totally qualify* in my mind. I think here they just decide what the definition is for us, because *that version is more in their interests. * In their version a luec/auratus hybrid would not qualify as a "Designer Frog". You all agree with that  *...I think that this is another of many examples where their understanding vs our understand differs, and them trying to make up or skew definitions/concepts to suit their own agenda.*

So I don't think they've really dived into *selling* "Designer Frogs", but I think they've probably been trying to produce them.


----------



## gturmindright

Wow. Talk about beating a dead horse. These guys are still in business? I'll come back at 5,000 and if they are still in business then there is no justice in this world.


----------



## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> *Folks, PLEASE abide by this. I know it is easy to take pot shots. In the end, if this thread gets locked, all it does is benefit DFW*





carola1155 said:


> Alright, one person already has a day off. Every subsequent offense is just going to get longer and longer ban times from the site.
> 
> Here's a little compilation of all my reminders in this thread for those of you that are too lazy to pay attention:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I have been more than fair (and lenient) to this point. I don't care what your intentions are with any outside references or any references to religion. I can guarantee whatever you meant will be misinterpreted by someone else and I will end up getting a complaint about it. Keep things off topic or get banned. End of story.*


One problem I think is that people are jumping in the thread that haven't read the front or 100 other + pages. Perhaps a page header like in thunderdome applied to this thread would be good. Or if you can't do that on just one thread at least add something like...

"The Dart frog warehouse thread has special conditions for staying open, see here.../"

It is either something like that, re-stating the rules of the thread regularly, or continued active moderation of an important topic if we want to avoid repeated and/or permanent closure.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Dave, I almost hope you`re right about the picture.
I`ve been telling myself even they couldn`t stoop that low.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Dave, I almost hope you`re right about the picture.
> I`ve been telling myself even they couldn`t stoop that low.


Possible I'm wrong, and as far as both the blk/white raw data version and the top pics not being different, I think I misunderstood what was supposed to happen on the site. When you hover over the top pic it is supposed to show you the same view as that raw data below either way I think. I pulled up some other photoshopped pics that were one Before/after pic... and the top bottom were the same, but the side to side views in the before/after pic showed the difference. So I misunderstood what was supposed to happen when you hover over the top pic. As far as photoshopping I was just talking about them sticking pics of more/mixed frogs in there. If you guys mean them cropping out part of the viv, then I'd say ya it was cropped or at they took the picture to close to get the whole viv in view...

My guess is the security of the leaf litter is helping the issue population/sex ratio issue, but there are actually 13 frogs at least. If you look by the foot of the patricia or powder blue near the front middle, there is another frog under the leaves. There is also another frog under the big green leaf on the far left. *YEARS and thousands of people have come the consensus that tincs are not good group frogs and shoving that many together at less then 5 gallons per frog is a bad idea! ...Then add in that it isn't well planted = * 
*
But a couple years experience from a few kids and 2 months of no dead frogs are these people's proof that they've shattered the myth!?!?!?!? 
*
This yet another example of how these people think/and understand "facts" and do "science"... I wouldn't trust them to read me a cake recipe and understand it, and coming from them I'd have my doubts it was even a real cake recipe... at least one anybody would wanna eat and actually agree it is "cake". If they actually tried to bake the cake... I wouldn't be in the same building because they'd probably end up with something explosive in their attempt to make a simple cake.

I almost thought it was a 30gal based on apparent scale, but not seeing the edges of the tank probably threw off my senses. *BUT*... Even if it is a 55 they cropped or left out parts of the tank, and just in the visible part of the tank in the photo is 13 frogs...

*How many frogs are in that tank where the parts of the viv are outside the camera/Jpeg field of view ?*

Honestly I wouldn't go through the trouble to photoshop a pic to make it look like the disaster that we were all afraid might actually be true... (Nice job DFW/usadart etc..etc.. )

*BTW...*
I think at 154 pages and basically no one ??? saying anything good about these people (even if people have complained about the thread) is kinda sad for them. Basically they ain't selling many frogs, or people just aren't sticking up for them. People who have bought/dealt with the "bad guys" that end up on BOI, will even show up to say a few nice things in a long thread. Evidence that maybe business is not good??? .


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

gturmindright said:


> These guys are still in business?


Yes they are.
I think the goal at this point is trying to educate as many people as possible and hopefully some will stumble across this thread, learn how to do things the right way and possibly
support our sponsors who put the damn animals first.


----------



## JayMillz

It's on a different thread, but I agree with what Eric said about how mixing sucks because you can take frogs from many isolated populations as you want to create interspecificly mixed (and intergenericly mixed in some cases? please correct me if I'm wrong on the genus mixing) frogs, but you cannot take mixed frogs to bring the originals back. Aren't there already enough "colors" to choose from? The picture that pops into my mind is a little kid mixing his or her water colors together. After enough of them you just get a crappy looking brown color. After enough hybrids are out, there isn't going to be anything that makes them stand out and shine compared to the originals. It seems like trying to breed PDFs for a living is very challenging and time consuming. The PDF hobby looks like it has been going on long enough that if it was easy money to push off "mutts" on people, there would already be multiple breeders you would see at the shows with bucketfulls of mixed frogs. Hint: There's a reason you don't have any competition in that area Rick. I enjoy reading the pretend demand that they claim there is for these designer frogs. There is probably a reason why you don't see many dog breeders out there that specialize in mutts in every city. Anyone want to predict what their next TM product will be? My guess is the "Super Duper Tadpole Sucker Upper" which would look a lot like a turkey baster but it will have a sticker of a frog on it, until the sticker falls off, then it will be confused for just being a regular baster.


----------



## JayMillz

JayMillz said:


> It's on a different thread, but I agree with what Eric said about how mixing sucks because you can take frogs from many isolated populations as you want to create interspecificly mixed (and intergenericly mixed in some cases? please correct me if I'm wrong on the genus mixing) frogs, but you cannot take mixed frogs to bring the originals back. Aren't there already enough "colors" to choose from? The picture that pops into my mind is a little kid mixing his or her water colors together. After enough of them you just get a crappy looking brown color. After enough hybrids are out, there isn't going to be anything that makes them stand out and shine compared to the originals. It seems like trying to breed PDFs for a living is very challenging and time consuming. The PDF hobby looks like it has been going on long enough that if it was easy money to push off "mutts" on people, there would already be multiple breeders you would see at the shows with bucketfulls of mixed frogs. Hint: There's a reason you don't have any competition in that area Rick. I enjoy reading the pretend demand that they claim there is for these designer frogs. There is probably a reason why you don't see many dog breeders out there that specialize in mutts in every city. Anyone want to predict what their next TM product will be? My guess is the "Super Duper Tadpole Sucker Upper" which would look a lot like a turkey baster but it will have a sticker of a frog on it, until the sticker falls off, then it will be confused for just being a regular baster.


*edit* Another scary part about that photo is after having all of those mixed together for a couple of months and then they may decide to separate them back to their native populations after they have transmitted anything and everything between each other. I've been sold frogs I was told were "healthy" in the past and they ended up having the worst case of hookworm the vet had ever saw, he didn't even need to do a float test. New guys/girls - please be aware of how the person you are purchasing your frogs cares for their animals. I'm glad that quarantine is an automatic response to any animals that come into my house, but if you had a few vivs already set up and aren't careful with what you are doing when you bring something new into the house, you take a risk of losing all of your collection.


----------



## aspidites73

The Fotoforensics site allows for ELA (Error Level Analysis) Similar edges should appear similar. When a photo is taken by a camera, there is no error. It represents a snapshot of reality. Errors happen when you try to show things that aren't real for that moment of time. The ELA has a sort of grace to it. When shopped, the photoshop program creates error. This is seen by the sharp pixelated edges that are different for each frog. The background has a pattern to it, but the frogs do not. Some outlines are obvious. Others, not so.
Getting the change when you hover your mouse above simply allows you a fast "back/forth"


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## Charlie Q

Dendro Dave said:


> but there are actually 13 frogs at least. If you look by the foot of the patricia or powder blue near the front middle, there is another frog under the leaves.


I had counted 13 also. that is 4.2 gal/frog


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## grendel88

JayMillz said:


> It's on a different thread, but I agree with what Eric said about how mixing sucks because you can take frogs from many isolated populations as you want to create interspecificly mixed (and intergenericly mixed in some cases? please correct me if I'm wrong on the genus mixing) frogs, but you cannot take mixed frogs to bring the originals back. Aren't there already enough "colors" to choose from? The picture that pops into my mind is a little kid mixing his or her water colors together. After enough of them you just get a crappy looking brown color.


This is called homogenization. The main reason people in this hobby advocate not mixing lines (although they are the same species) is because you lose the original, unique phenotypes that cannot be restored. Saying a tinc is a tinc is like saying a dog is a dog or a human is a human. If we homogenized our own species, we would all be brown haired, brown eyed, with no extremes in look or metabolic activity. Not only would we look the same but we would be susceptible to diseases and limitations that are not currently relevant to our species. Our variation is what allows us to thrive. Due to relatively low numbers, dart frogs in general have low variety as it is. To homogenize the lines would decrease that even further. This is what the Waschers do not seem to realize. Given enough time, each of those "breeds" would become its own species due to geographic isolation. They are doing dart frogs in general a hug disservice by annihilating what little evolutionary wiggle room they still have.


----------



## grendel88

Charlie Q said:


> I had counted 13 also. that is 4.2 gal/frog


BTW, DFW mentioned how these guys were doing great on their own for 2 months. I noticed one of the frogs in the pic is buried under the feet of a few others. I guess that's normal tinc behavior? Nice try, DFW


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## Alexmenke92

They've gone from bad to worse to insane. I can barely stand to read this thread anymore due to the fact that they literally do everything wrong. I am always surprised at their disservice to the entire hobby and the dart frogs themselves. Seriously? 13+ frogs (tincs at that) in an enclosure that small? I wouldn't even shove anywhere near that many thumbs in that size tank...

I'm just tired of them. I'm tired of their website potentially degrading what many of you have worked so hard to preserve. I'm tired of the misinformation and crap they are spewing consistently. Why not just be reputable? Why not do things the right way? Why is it that difficult for them? By now they know what is right and what is wrong but they continue to ignore the true facts. I'm not trying to bash them, I honestly just think their pride is getting in the way of taking care of the animals...

And that is what really matters. 

DFW, what you are doing is wrong, and I really hope one day soon you will change. Please just swallow your pride and do not subject the hobby and the frogs to your disservice


Sent from my RM-893_nam_tmous_201 using Tapatalk


----------



## Aldross

So I emailed them over how they can ensure that when you buy a frog from them it is not mixed. This was their response.
"Nothing is mixed, anyone say that we sell mixed is a liar. That time may come, but not now."

Just though I would share.


----------



## JayMillz

Charlie Q said:


> I had counted 13 also. that is 4.2 gal/frog


Psssh! That's mansion standards compared to the 42 gallon ad from a couple of weeks ago


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## Boondoggle

grendel88 said:


> BTW, DFW mentioned how these guys were doing great on their own for 2 months. I noticed one of the frogs in the pic is buried under the feet of a few others. I guess that's normal tinc behavior? Nice try, DFW


Not just normal behavior. They are claiming that it is frog camaraderie and that the frogs are ENJOYING it! Also, after the previous explanation on FotoForensics and some supplemental reading I believe that shot is likely photoshopped as well. I don't know whats worse though, if it's fake or it it's real. 

So, who's buying these frogs? Not many people can afford to sit on "thousands" of frogs so either they're wealthy, selling more than seems likely, or just plain liars.


----------



## Charlie Q

Boondoggle said:


> So, who's buying these frogs? Not many people can afford to sit on "thousands" of frogs so either they're wealthy, selling more than seems likely, or just plain liars.


4 years of college tuition and a corvette can go a long way. My guess is they are wealthy. At this point I would guess their egos are stopping them from closing shop. or maybe their goal is to wait it out until there are enough mis informed people who accept them in the hobby.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

aspidites73 said:


> The Fotoforensics site allows for ELA (Error Level Analysis) Similar edges should appear similar. When a photo is taken by a camera, there is no error. It represents a snapshot of reality. Errors happen when you try to show things that aren't real for that moment of time. The ELA has a sort of grace to it. When shopped, the photoshop program creates error. This is seen by the sharp pixelated edges that are different for each frog. The background has a pattern to it, but the frogs do not. Some outlines are obvious. Others, not so.
> Getting the change when you hover your mouse above simply allows you a fast "back/forth"


Busted again Ricky boy!!!
What will it be next time?


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## ZookeeperDoug

Anyone who questions wether they've actually produced mixed offspring?

Removing all doubt:

US Dart Frog

This is what we're fighting people.


----------



## edwardsatc

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Busted again Ricky boy!!!
> What will it be next time?


I don't think so. The evidence using fotoforensics is weak (at best). Without getting technical, if the frogs were shopped into the image, the edges would be much more clearly defined and much more obviuos. Additionally, the frogs are behind water droplets on the tank surface, which would require the droplets to be shopped in also. the use of other ELA software also indicates that the image is authentic.

Besides, i why would someone with hundreds of frogs photoshop them into a picture when they could just drop a dozen frogs in a tank and snap a picture. It just not a logical conclusion. And frankly, the theory lends nothing to the discussion at hand and plays right into the thoughts of members that think this is just some petty witch hunt.

It's well established that I have no love for these folks, but IMO this photoshop finger pointing just seems a bit petty and silly and detracts from the real issues.


----------



## edwardsatc

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Anyone who questions wether they've actually produced mixed offspring?
> 
> Removing all doubt:
> 
> US Dart Frog
> 
> This is what we're fighting people.


Just confirmation of what we all knew was coming next.

From a science perspective, I didn't think their BS could get much deeper but this is exponentially deeper ...


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## mjahnke

Anyone know what website the pic of the True Sip picture ad is from? I'd like to give them my business and not DFW. 

-Mike


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## ZookeeperDoug

edwardsatc said:


> I don't think so. The evidence using fotoforensics is weak (at best). Without getting technical, if the frogs were shopped into the image, the edges would be much more clearly defined and much more obviuos. Additionally, the frogs are behind water droplets on the tank surface, which would require the droplets to be shopped in also. the use of other ELA software also indicates that the image is authentic.
> 
> Besides, i why would someone with hundreds of frogs photoshop them into a picture when they could just drop a dozen frogs in a tank and snap a picture. It just not a logical conclusion. And frankly, the theory lends nothing to the discussion at hand and plays right into the thoughts of members that think this is just some petty witch hunt.
> 
> It's well established that I have no love for these folks, but IMO this photoshop finger pointing just seems a bit petty and silly and detracts from the real issues.


I agree. It actually makes them look WORSE that they actually did this, than if it is photoshopped. 

Of course their semantics and reasoning behind this tank have now changed.

They're now trying to claim:




> Our frogs are PERFECT for groups, and yes even as adults. The photograph below is of a 55 gallon tank we put together for a recent trip to show some kids the cool frogs. Males and females alike have been in this tank since mid-January 2014, a little less than two (2) months as of the date of this writing. We are studying their behavior and there is no sign of aggression whatsoever. Everybody that cares for more than a few frogs knows any aggressive tendencies appear quickly within days or even hours. Regular feeding and cover is the key! Why is the "tank" planted this way, display only. The frogs are encouraged to interact and easily viewable. They are THRIVING together! They love the company, touch each other as friends, and eat side by side.
> 
> How do other people get this wrong and advocate mayhem scenarios with multiple adult frogs? Two things, either they do not have the experience with thousands of frogs and many groups, or their frogs are simply under cared for making them behave aggressively in a survival manner. Ours are pets, well cared for, and fun! (The tank below is a research tank planted with artificial plants. It is not intended to represent a vivarium for pets, and yet a standard 10 gallon tank works well for a couple of frogs.)


Wrong again Rick. Nobody but the incredibly naive and ignorant newbie, which is who USDARTfrog preys upon, would buy this. Nobody needs experience with thousands of frogs to know that this is a fallacious claim. You're attempting to use a fallacious argument (assertion of your experience level as proof of) to prove your case but you fail. Classic argumentative pitfall.

So what is it? Is it a research tank, or a display meant to deceive and mislead kids into thinking that this kind of travesty of a vivarium is acceptable by any measure. Where is the data? What have you actually studied? I wonder if you even know the signs of aggression, or how to spot any other health issues for that matter.

Thank goodness you don't intend it to be a representation of a vivarium, because it is anything but. If anything, it's just an obviously quickly thrown together piece of junk to mislead and confuse potential customers into thinking this is ok.


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## carola1155

mjahnke said:


> Anyone know what website the pic of the True Sip picture ad is from? I'd like to give them my business and not DFW.
> 
> -Mike


someone should actually probably let Sean know... They need to cite his site if they are gonna take a screenshot like that. They can't say just say


> From an internet website not U.S Dart Frog comes this:


----------



## ZookeeperDoug

carola1155 said:


> someone should actually probably let Sean know... They need to cite his site if they are gonna take a screenshot like that. They can't say just say


Thought I recognized it.

And quite ironic in the sense that this is at the bottom of every single page for them:



> ©2014 US Dart Frog - All Rights Reserved.
> All images and photos are the sole and exclusive copyrighted property of US Dart Frog–Copying and reuse of any kind is prohibited.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Last one, sorry for the excessive updates, but have a lot of info to share.

The website for the Nashville exotic pet expo vendors lists USDARTfrog as vendors. I hope some of our members can attend on a fact finding mission.

Vendors - Nashville Exotic Pet Expo

*ALL* of UsDartfrog's contact info is there. Even very valuable contact information they have taken down from their own website. If you've had trouble reaching them to get direct answers to questions via other means you might find an alternative method listed here.


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## grendel88

I have been in contact with Barbara Stewart recently and I sent her a link to the picture on the DFW site that she probably took herself. It truly breaks my heart to know they are comparing their mutts to a very impressive line of frogs bred by Sean. 

From DFW website:
"We also know, parental combinations of varieties yield the exact same frog found in the wild. On that basis, why harvest the "rare" versions from the wild as the wild frogs approach protected or endangered species status, and are prone to carry ferocious population destroying diseases. Hence, there is no reason to pillage and potentially destroy the wild ecosystems, and import diseases from the jungle and into the pet trade."

I think the most frustrating part is that they DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND WHY EVERYONE IS SO UPSET and then make half-hearted attempts to rectify their errors. SMH


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## phender

What shows even more ignorance on their part, is that the Sean Stewart picture that they stole is a pic of a "True Sip" which has a yellow crest on the head (as it clearly says in the description, even though it doesn't show well in the pic) and their frog is missing the yellow on the head that is the identifying mark of a "True Sip". So they weren't able to create a look-a-like frog anyway. Doh !


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## InvertaHerp

I just had a conversation over the phone with Rick..damn can he talk. Interesting. I should have taken notes, but you can PM me for info.


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## dravenxavier

grendel88 said:


> From DFW website:
> "We also know, parental combinations of varieties yield the exact same frog found in the wild. On that basis, why harvest the "rare" versions from the wild as the wild frogs approach protected or endangered species status, and are prone to carry ferocious population destroying diseases. Hence, there is no reason to pillage and potentially destroy the wild ecosystems, and import diseases from the jungle and into the pet trade."


I thought their key reasoning in creating "designer frogs" is that they are all the same species anyway, and localities are unwarranted and unjustified. So then what difference is there to them if a "rare" version is harvested from the wild if it's the same as all other more common versions also found in the wild?


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## ZookeeperDoug

InvertaHerp said:


> I just had a conversation over the phone with Rick..damn can he talk. Interesting. I should have taken notes, but you can PM me for info.


Would love to have that recorded. (Yes I know it is illegal without his consent)


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## Bcs TX

carola1155 said:


> someone should actually probably let Sean know... They need to cite his site if they are gonna take a screenshot like that. They can't say just say


Not to mention the price of the frog on his site.......


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## grendel88

Barbara just wrote back to me confirm that they are aware. I can guarantee you will see that picture disappear from the DFW website in the very near future.


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## Boondoggle

"How do other people get this wrong and advocate mayhem scenarios with multiple adult frogs? Two things, either they do not have the experience with thousands of frogs and many groups, or their frogs are simply under cared for making them behave aggressively in a survival manner."

Dear Rick,

So what does your experience with "thousands" of frogs afford you? I'm so sick of this anti-logic. 1000 frogs is not some XP badge that, once attained, allows you to just do anything you want and the frogs will comply. What specifically have you learned with your "thousands" of frogs that allows you to pile them on top of each other and be happy about it? What does "under cared for" even mean? Do you mean underfed? Is your assertion that only hungry frogs can be aggressive? 

Here's the bottom line. You may have thousands of frogs (you don't) but you've only been doing this for 2 years and that aint jack....

I've been doing this for 4 times that long, I've produced hundreds of frogs, and I'm really just a noob. There are guys that have been doing this 25 years and are still learning new things every day...Things you will never learn because of your astounding arrogance and hubris. You make conclusions, then you try to manipulate the data to support them. 

Let me make this clear. We, the hobby, have produced tens of thousands of frogs and so far I haven't met anyone in the hobby that doesn't think you are completely full of crap. that trumps your thousands, so please shut up about it now. I understand the whole "thousands of frogs" is the only feather in your cap but waving that feather at every argument is really starting to sound like overcompensation. Experience does not necessarily equal wisdom. You know less than someone should who has been in the hobby for two years with a single pair. That is nothing to brag about.

Here's the problem with a business model that preys on the uninformed. If they leave the hobby, they stop buying from you. If they stay in the hobby, they get informed and they stop buying from you. You will have to keep finding new people to dupe, in the meantime people will find how hard it is to sell your latest designer frog offspring and the word will get out. 

Well, honestly, that last part kinda' makes me happy.

Piss & Vinegar,
BD


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## Dendro Dave

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Anyone who questions wether they've actually produced mixed offspring?
> 
> Removing all doubt:
> 
> US Dart Frog
> 
> This is what we're fighting people.


Wow just awesome.... Snaking Sean's site pic, and deciding to define "designer dart frogs" for the entire hobby (just like I said)


*" Designer Frogs are most certainly NOT hybrids. "* ...Uh who decided this? I thought this was up to the hobby community, not Rick 

Here is another relevant definition that describes what is going on with them, and one Rick might wanna claim dominion over...

* meg·a·lo·ma·ni·a  *
1. A psychopathological condition characterized by delusional fantasies of wealth, power, or omnipotence.
2. An obsession with grandiose or extravagant things or actions.

At this point I think their entire business model is being revamped just to troll us. I think they are getting off on it now


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## zaius

I'm not sure if this has been pointed out before.

I believe the reason that they are marketing their frogs "Safe" frogs.

Is because it's illegal in Tennessee to keep Amphibains that are poisonous.

See below.

This class includes all species inherently dangerous to humans. These species may only be possessed by zoos, circuses and commercial propagators, except as otherwise provided in this part. The commission, in conjunction with the commissioner of agriculture, may add or delete species from the list of Class I wildlife by promulgating rules and regulations. The following is a listing of animals considered inherently dangerous:

(A) Mammals:

(i) Primates - Gorillas, orangutans, chimpanzees, gibbons, siamangs, mandrills, drills, baboons, Gelada baboons;

(ii) Carnivores:

(a) Wolves - All species;

(b) Bears - All species; and

(c) Lions, tigers, leopards, jaguars, cheetahs, cougars - All species;

(iii) Order Proboscidia: Elephants - All species;

(iv) Order Perissodactyla: Rhinoceroses - All species; and

(v) Order Artiodactyla: Hippopotamus, African buffalo;

(B) Reptiles:

(i) Order Crocodylia: Crocodiles and alligators - All species; and

(ii) Order Serpentes: Snakes - All poisonous species; and

(C) Amphibians: All poisonous species


State Laws Governing Private Possession of Exotic Animals


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## Eric Walker

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Would love to have that recorded. (Yes I know it is illegal without his consent)


Not entirely true Doug. Look up one-party consent statutes. Applies to conversations your part of and only requires one persons consent. Your own consent works. Applies to phone conversations. This statute is in 38 states but if the other party lives in one of those other 12 states you may still have an issue


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## easternversant

Dendro Dave said:


> Wow just awesome.... Snaking Sean's site pic, and deciding to define "designer dart frogs" for the entire hobby (just like I said)
> 
> 
> *" Designer Frogs are most certainly NOT hybrids. "* ...Uh who decided this? I thought this was up to the hobby community, not Rick


Technically, this is true. The word "hybrid" implies crossing two different species. Unless they are really crossing different species, in which case...


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## Dart girl

That picture makes me very sad. Too many frogs, a poor excuse for an Eco system... 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## InvertaHerp

This may be new from after I spoke to Rick (he mentioned this):

The World English Dictionary defines "scientist" as "a person who studies or practises any of the sciences or who uses scientific methods", and we all certainly do that here! Therefore, while dad is a nuclear engineer, patent attorney, and holds several patents and patent applications pending for medical technology breakthoughs in angiogenesis related cancer research, predictive health diagnosis software, and other innovations, and has worked alongside world reknowned scientists and engineers evaluating their discoveries for patentability and enforcing patent rights worlwide, and Dillon placed in the top 0.04 percentile of ACT and SAT scores nationwide while testing perfect in biology and math, as a family of young and old, we all work together as a science team to study, breed, and raise all of our frogs and tads with the best care possible. 

How the hell can people who claim to be smart have a website riddled with spelling mistakes and idiotic crap?


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## markpulawski

I have 2 boys and all I have ever wanted was for them to have a better life than me and be happy in the pursuit of their goals. Now I see Dillon who probably fell in love with the dart frog hobby, so cool and different than so many things out there....and then it evolves into this mess, undoubtedly under a great amount of influence from his dad. Here's a kid who loves our hobby who likely wanted to be a big part of it but he is now scorned and literally hated by pretty much the entire community he wanted to be a part of (there's not a 19 year old out there that would want that for themselves).....as a father I know I would be devastated for me kid to go through that. And yet I have no doubt that this guys ego says I don't care what it costs my kids...I AM RIGHT. Just a really sad situation. I wonder if the kids would ever be able to say to their dad "Dad we are wrong, we should change"....or would that be tantamount to mutiny, excommunication....disowned. One day Dillon will realize he went down the wrong path, hopefully not too long from now but until then they are a virus that hopefully will be stopped by our vigilance. The best thing about them is that they are public and not completely hidden.


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## Tropicaldarts

O.k. So much to read, can someone please sum up what the problem is with Dart Frog Warehouse? This is getting a bit confusing to me.


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## TheCoon

"Therefore, while dad is a nuclear engineer, patent attorney, and holds several patents and patent applications pending for medical technology breakthoughs in angiogenesis related cancer research, predictive health diagnosis software, and other innovations, and has worked alongside world reknowned scientists and engineers evaluating their discoveries for patentability and enforcing patent rights worlwide, and Dillon placed in the top 0.04 percentile of ACT and SAT scores nationwide while testing perfect in biology and math, as a family of young and old, we all work together as a science team to study, breed, and raise all of our frogs and tads with the best care possible. "

That is one hell of a run-on sentence... 
And .04 percentile on the ACT is a perfect score. ha


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## Boondoggle

Tropicaldarts said:


> O.k. So much to read, can someone please sum up what the problem is with Dart Frog Warehouse? This is getting a bit confusing to me.


They are giving very very bad advise and trying to discredit those who are giving good advice. They are advocating practices that are bad for a hobbyist and bad for the hobby. When those things are brought to their attention they quote/misquote/quote out of context pseudoscience in an effort to dupe and mislead. They have set themselves up as the penultimate expert on frogs when they in actuality have only about 2 years experience. They are doing all this in an effort to sell frogs to people that don't know any better because the people that know better have basically called "shenanigans" on all the inaccuracies they are stating as fact.

To put it simply, they use lies, mis-truths and half-truths to promote a business which was likely started with the intention of filling the "designer frog" niche. They've officially distanced themselves from that aim, but at the same time spent a hell of a lot of web space trying to legitimize the practice, and have now posted pictures of designer frogs. They took a few aspects of breeding that most everyone is doing and slapped trademark titles on them and insinuated that they were the only ones doing those things by virtue of that trademark. They guarantee all of their frogs as 100% safe, but will not be any more specific than that and have stated that they don't need to test their animals because they purchased their breeding stock from people they trust.

That's just some of the highlights.


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## JayMillz

markpulawski said:


> I have 2 boys and all I have ever wanted was for them to have a better life than me and be happy in the pursuit of their goals. Now I see Dillon who probably fell in love with the dart frog hobby, so cool and different than so many things out there....and then it evolves into this mess, undoubtedly under a great amount of influence from his dad. Here's a kid who loves our hobby who likely wanted to be a big part of it but he is now scorned and literally hated by pretty much the entire community he wanted to be a part of (there's not a 19 year old out there that would want that for themselves).....as a father I know I would be devastated for me kid to go through that. And yet I have no doubt that this guys ego says I don't care what it costs my kids...I AM RIGHT. Just a really sad situation. I wonder if the kids would ever be able to say to their dad "Dad we are wrong, we should change"....or would that be tantamount to mutiny, excommunication....disowned. One day Dillon will realize he went down the wrong path, hopefully not too long from now but until then they are a virus that hopefully will be stopped by our vigilance. The best thing about them is that they are public and not completely hidden.


That's well said Mark & I agree with you on that as I am raising 2 step sons myself. I don't think Dillon does get a voice in any decisions made in that house. He hasn't spoken up since about the first week of when this train wreck first started. Rick should have just let Dillon do it his way instead of taking over. Instead I picture Dillon filling more of a sweatshop type role in all of this. He should take "his business" and pack up and move out of that house, he might have a chance then.


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## Alexmenke92

Tropicaldarts said:


> O.k. So much to read, can someone please sum up what the problem is with Dart Frog Warehouse? This is getting a bit confusing to me.


Tropicaldarts,
I would recommend reading at least the beginning 20ish pages just to see how this whole issue began. I'm not sure of that number but you will see in a short time how they distanced themselves and then turned tables on everything the hobby works for (and ironically later, become "buddy buddy" with the hobby again). I know that it is a long, long thread but it really is worth your time IMO.


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## Aldross

So i just had a talk with Patrick about these guys. He just laughed and said "yea I've seen their site. im not worried about them they will be gone within a year". thought i would share .

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## Dendro Dave

easternversant said:


> Technically, this is true. The word "hybrid" implies crossing two different species. Unless they are really crossing different species, in which case...


Except "Designer dart frogs" isn't a strict definition. *It's a broad concept that doesn't exclude hybrids*(That I know of). They didn't say "Our designer dart frogs are not created using hybrids"... They said " Designer Frogs are most certainly NOT hybrids." This implies you can't call it a designer dart frog if it is also a hybrid. 

There is no single authority that I know of, well other then Rick who has officially defined "designer dart frogs" as a concept for us, but here are some definitions for "designer" when used as an adjective...
designer adjective - definition in the Business English Dictionary - Cambridge Dictionaries Online (US)
_*› made by a famous or fashionable designer:
designer jeans/sunglasses
› made to interest or attract people by being new and fashionable:
designer coffee
› made by changing the natural or chemical structure of something:
designer drugs/foods*_

Designer - Synonyms and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary[adjective]
*being or involving the latest methods, concepts, information, or styles <that car manufacturer is claiming that their new models are the last word in designer technology>
*

So I take from all of that, that basically if people are trying to create something new, and/or change something to make it something else they are involved in designing, or might be a designer. Oh god, what have I done... I bet Rick and the boys run with that lol... Oh wait they already did kinda with the fancy made up frog names and their plans to mix morphs at least if not species. 


Anyways the main point was that they just decided to define the whole concept of what is a designer frog for us....

Just like they decided that the hobby should just accept their designer dart plans, they named themselves shipping experts before they'd hardly shipped anything, named themselves scientists, named their frogs "SAFE" when they can't back up the claims inherent in that title, and it's fine to shove a bunch of tincs into one sparsely planted viv, etc..etc... Oh and they decided that even though we all blasted their sleazy used car salesman marketing techniques, that it was best to just continue using them. I'm sure I've left out some other stuff but you all get the idea... It's just amazing to me that they don't get the idea


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## Dendro Dave

markpulawski said:


> I have 2 boys and all I have ever wanted was for them to have a better life than me and be happy in the pursuit of their goals. Now I see Dillon who probably fell in love with the dart frog hobby, so cool and different than so many things out there....and then it evolves into this mess, undoubtedly under a great amount of influence from his dad. Here's a kid who loves our hobby who likely wanted to be a big part of it but he is now scorned and literally hated by pretty much the entire community he wanted to be a part of (there's not a 19 year old out there that would want that for themselves).....as a father I know I would be devastated for me kid to go through that. And yet I have no doubt that this guys ego says I don't care what it costs my kids...I AM RIGHT. Just a really sad situation. I wonder if the kids would ever be able to say to their dad "Dad we are wrong, we should change"....or would that be tantamount to mutiny, excommunication....disowned. One day Dillon will realize he went down the wrong path, hopefully not too long from now but until then they are a virus that hopefully will be stopped by our vigilance. The best thing about them is that they are public and not completely hidden.



Ya really all they had to do was sell healthy frogs and not screw people over and they may have had a shot. Coming up with some new products/practices that were legit instead of just trademarking stuff others had already done and not using the sleazy marketing tactics and not championing a bunch of crap the hobby community was against probably would have helped to. Basically they've gone wrong at almost every turn. I don't know how much Dillon is responsible for all that, but he at least seems willing to go a long with it. Maybe though he can't speak up... Who knows what's going on in that house.


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## Boondoggle

Dendro Dave said:


> Just like they decided that the hobby should just accept their designer dart plans, they named themselves shipping experts before they'd hardly shipped anything, named themselves scientists, named their frogs "SAFE" when they can't back up the claims inherent in that title, and it's fine to shove a bunch of tincs into one sparsely planted viv, etc..etc... Oh and they decided that even though we all blasted their sleazy used car salesman marketing techniques, that it was best to just continue using them. I'm sure I've left out some other stuff but you all get the idea... It's just amazing to me that they don't get the idea


That's the stuff.

There would be no reason why the definition of a "Designer Frog" would deviate from that of a "designer" snake or any "designer" animal. It's just casual nomenclature, but a "Designer Frog" is already accepted as one in which animals/species/morphs/locales that could not normally breed in nature are bred in an effort to create something that, strictly speaking, does not occur in the wild. All hybrids are designer frogs, not all designer frogs are hybrids.

If Rick can be dogmatic, so can I. 

Now I suggest that someone apply for a trademark on the phrase "Designer Frogs" and officially define it as something quite unflattering.


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## edwardsatc

Boondoggle said:


> That's the stuff.
> 
> There would be no reason why the definition of a "Designer Frog" would deviate from that of a "designer" snake or any "designer" animal. It's just casual nomenclature, but a "Designer Frog" is already accepted as one in which animals/species/morphs/locales that could not normally breed in nature are bred in an effort to create something that, strictly speaking, does not occur in the wild. All hybrids are designer frogs, not all designer frogs are hybrids.
> 
> If Rick can be dogmatic, so can I.
> 
> Now I suggest that someone apply for a trademark on the phrase "Designer Frogs" and officially define it as something quite unflattering.


And suddenly the term "designer frogs" is gone from the web site. Unfortunately, now the things are even more ambiguous. They are now just calling them "rare captive bred frogs" which, obviously, is even more misleading.

US Dart Frog


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## Charlie Q

If they can't sell these mixed morph frogs, they might start dumping them under false names. If they believe that they have recreated a wild frog, they certainly could believe that they have every right to sell it as such.

That is what i am worried about.


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## ZookeeperDoug

Charlie Q said:


> If they can't sell these mixed morph frogs, they might start dumping them under false names. If they believe that they have recreated a wild frog, they certainly could believe that they have every right to sell it as such.
> 
> That is what i am worried about.


Exactly. And not if but when.

And what happens if customers mix their designer mixed morph garbage with other morphs or other types of mixed morph frogs? You end up with garbage and a giant mess for the hobby.

What happens when the Wascher kids get lazy or careless as kids often do? Does anyone actually think the Wascher's keep accurate records? They may just end up selling someone someone something they think is one morph when it is something else. I don't trust kids to carelessly loose track of what cup goes were, gets what label, goes in what grow out, etc. 

Not to mention all their invalid and absurd assumptions and misunderstanding of the genetics, health of F1 offspring, etc etc etc. You know they're not doing any actual genetic research. At best they're making some anecdotal observations and assumptions based on what they observe but no real data or research.


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## InvertaHerp

Why do some people call these frogs "poision dart frogs"?


Well Rick, this is because THEY ARE POISON DART FROGS!!!! Oh, BTW, this is how you spell POISON. Idiots.


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## Charlie Q

Oh, and now they have a tab "CB" and they are calling the BLUE FROST™ a captive bred signature series…


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## Boondoggle

> Stated another way for complete clarity, the first generation offspring (F1) of a proven pair of same species (tinctorius), but dissimilar parents in the context of variety, are themselves most definitely capable of breeding and producing 2nd generation offspring of their kind. This fact has always been disputed, but we have proven the answer.


Who the heck ever disputed that??? If they were sterile the hobby wouldn't care what the heck kind of frankenfrog you were churning out! It's wonderful that you've discovered that they are viable, but you haven't broken any new ground here. Despite your insinuated claims, you're not the first person to breed frogs from disparate locales. People that don't know better do it all the time.


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## edwardsatc

Boondoggle said:


> Who the heck ever disputed that??? If they were sterile the hobby wouldn't care what the heck kind of frankenfrog you were churning out! It's wonderful that you've discovered that they are viable, but you haven't broken any new ground here. Despite your insinuated claims, you're not the first person to breed frogs from disparate locales. People that don't know better do it all the time.


Sounds like they're operating on the outdated definition of a hybrid which states that the progeny of hybrids cannot be fertile. Probably relying on their typical sources of information (wikipedia, ehow, etc.)

And since Rick seems to like wikipedia so much, I'll throw this out there just for fun:

"The third type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding, where hybrids are commonly produced and selected because they have desirable characteristics not found or inconsistently present in the parent individuals or populations. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization."


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## markpulawski

If they have truly read all of what they claim to have read, they would have known that breeding different species within the same genus are theoretically what is supposed to throw sterile offspring. The idiocy and lack of fundamental understanding of our hobby screams louder every day, buffoonery does not a scientist make.


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## carola1155

***After much deliberation... 
This thread is going to be permanently CLOSED***​
At this point there is getting to be WAY too much information here and the longer it gets the more diluted it becomes. Expecting someone to keep reading through all these posts will end up confusing them more as more information keeps getting piled on. Also, most of it is really not appropriate for the Regional Forum.

I am going to be creating a companion thread in the Lounge for new concerns of yours going forward. Please feel free to continue the conversation there all you want. Keep in mind that it is in the LOUNGE and not the Thunderdome so it will still be subject to moderation and any violations of the User Agreement will be enforced.

This decision is *Final*. PM's to myself or any other moderators about it will fall on deaf ears. I've let you guys run long enough with this one as it was.

The companion thread can be found here: *http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lo...fedartfrogs-companion-thread.html#post1837369*


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