# Snails...possibly bad?



## Red Eye (Jan 8, 2007)

I have about 75 Red Eye tads that are developing in their rearing tray. My question is, do you think having snails inside the rearing tray could be harmful in anyway to the tads?
I would like to add some more to help control waste/uneaten food but would like to hear opinions about them beforehand.
Does anyone else use snails?

Probably not a very popular question on a dart board and all but thought I would ask out of curiosity.

Red Eye


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

I know snails eat frog eggs a lot, but I'm not sure about the tads. They can carry bacteria and stuff like that too, so I wouldn't do it. Maybe someone else who knows a bit more can chime in?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I dont think it would be a good idea. Im not sure that snails would directly harm the tads, but I know snails are intermediate hosts for a bunch of parasites. If theres uneaten food, just cut back feeding a little, or do a waterchange. Turkeybasters are great for 'spotcleaning",


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

Umm yeah, snails and frogs = bad. How do you think internal parasites get around? SNAILS.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

While snails can carry a number of parasites, Trematodes (and specifically Ribeiroia ondatrae) are the main one to be concerned about as one genus has been implicated in causing frog deformities in wild populations (the parasite needs to end up in a bird to mature and the frogs are an intermediary host). These are typically only a concern in Planorbella snails (ramshorn snails) that have been wild collected. If the snails were cultured inside or came in on plants that were greenhouse grown then the chances of them carrying the trematodes are very small. (for a short synopsis see http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/journals/ ... _frog.html 
and more importantly http://www.science.psu.edu/journal/Fall ... s-FA02.htm )

Ed


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

^^^While thats certainly true for your very few specific examples, not all parasites that infect frogs need a bird as a host to mature, and not all only use frogs as an intermediate host. As a precaution snails with frogs and fish is not a good idea. As a precaution when I play contact sports I wear a helmet, or I wear my seatbelt when I drive. It's just bad practice.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "While thats certainly true for your very few specific examples, not all parasites that infect frogs need a bird as a host to mature, and not all only use frogs as an intermediate host."endsnip

I didn't say this was the case for all of the parasites that can be found in frogs or even most of the parasites that can be found in frogs but the question was asked if there was significant risk to the tadpoles from the snails. As I stated above, unless the snails are of the genus Planorbella that have been exposed to the fecal material of trematode infected waterfowl there isn't a significant risk from parasites. (and as a side note... I couldn't find any references to snails carrying parasites that infect tadpoles (much less anurans) that were not trematodes......) 

The bacteria that can come in on the snails is typically the same bacteria that is already present in the aquaria (Aeromonas, Pseudomonas ssp, Proteus ssp. etc) and are typically only an issue if the tadpoles are overcrowded, and stressed. The main fungus that is of concern (Saprolegnia) is going to be present regardless if there are snails or not. Saprolegnia is typically only an issue with injured and stressed tadpoles. 


snip "a precaution snails with frogs and fish is not a good idea."endsnip
snip " It's just bad practice."endsnip

For what reason? 

Ed


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

I have read that a source of "extra digits" on frogs is caused by a trematode that burrows into developing tadpoles which causes problems in metamorphosis. And actually most, if not all of the parasites that I have read or heard about are only capable of infecting tadpole stages.

Also, except for the species of snail you mentioned, you forgot about the 1000's of other species of snails that are hosts. Are you also forgetting about the gazillion other species of parasites out there or just choosing to ignore them?

Why is it bad practice? Well thats pretty obvious.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "I have read that a source of "extra digits" on frogs is caused by a trematode that burrows into developing tadpoles which causes problems in metamorphosis."endsnip

If you had read the links I cited above you would have been able to discover that the trematode you are referring to is Ribeiroia ondatrae. And to just be a little correct here, it doesn't cause extra digits. It disrupts the development of the hind limb buds by encysting in/near the buds resulting in no leg development to multiple leg development. 


snip "And actually most, if not all of the parasites that I have read or heard about are only capable of infecting tadpole stages."endsnip

This is incorrect. For example Rhabdias species readily infect adult anurans through having the infectious larva burrow through the skin, a number of nematodes that infect anurans use dragon flies as the intermediary host... I would suggest reviewing the literature on anuran parasitology.. 


snip "Also, except for the species of snail you mentioned, you forgot about the 1000's of other species of snails that are hosts."endsnip 

First off I didn't mention a species of snail, I mentioned a genus of snails. Also I didn't forget anything. The parasite in question uses snails of the genus Planorbella, as with other parasites there is host specificity which is why Planorbealla is of concern with this trematode and not say Physa... 
To support your allegation that there are 1000s of species of snails that are hosts for anuran parasites please list 10 species of snails other than the genus Planorbella that are hosts for parasites that infect anurans.

snip " Are you also forgetting about the gazillion other species of parasites out there or just choosing to ignore them?"endsnip

I am ignoring a lot of the other parasites as they do not affect anurans. Why would I worry about a parasite that only affects the snail itself (the main ones carried by snails) or multi-host one that doesn't affect tadpoles or frogs? 

snip "Why is it bad practice? Well thats pretty obvious. "endsnip

I have yet to see any real data supporting this information outside of the references I cited above... 

Ed


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

Ed said:


> If you had read the links I cited above you would have been able to discover that the trematode you are referring to is Ribeiroia ondatrae. And to just be a little correct here, it doesn't cause extra digits. It disrupts the development of the hind limb buds by encysting in/near the buds resulting in no leg development to multiple leg development.


Well OBVIOUSLY this isn't the species I was referring to. Good for your species, and what it does, I wasn't refuting that, and I have aknowledged it several times now. You can't assume that the parasite I am referring to is the only one you know anything about!



Ed said:


> snip "And actually most, if not all of the parasites that I have read or heard about are only capable of infecting tadpole stages."endsnip
> 
> This is incorrect.


Um actually it is.



Ed said:


> First off I didn't mention a species of snail, I mentioned a genus of snails.


Ok then everything I said, but for the genus you mentioned and not species. There is more than one GENUS of snail out there, and don't try and tell me that only the genus you mentioned is capable of being an interediate host in the lifecycle of parasites than infect amphibians.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Well OBVIOUSLY this isn't the species I was referring to. Good for your species, and what it does, I wasn't refuting that, and I have aknowledged it several times now. You can't assume that the parasite I am referring to is the only one you know anything about! "endsnip

Then what species of parasite are you referring to? 

Please supply a reference to support your statement. 


snip "Ed wrote: 
snip "And actually most, if not all of the parasites that I have read or heard about are only capable of infecting tadpole stages."endsnip 

This is incorrect. 

Um actually it is.endsnip

Then you have obviously not reviewed much (if any) of the literature on anuran parasitology..... 
If your statement was true then all of the anuran species that have direct development won't have parasites... as they do not have a "tadpole" stage that would be available for infection... (and obviously the idea they do not have parasites is ridiculous)... 

As I cited above Rhabdias which are a type of nematode do not infect the tadpoles they infect the adult anurans. This is also true of hookworms... 

Also how would you explain how the many different types of blood parasites such as trypansomes that are found in anurans infect the tadpoles when they are transmitted by arthropod vectors? Are you suggesting that there are multiple species of mosquitos or ticks that dive under water and feed on the tadpoles? (even though they are documented to feed on adult anurans...?) 
(to get you started here I suggest starting with THE BLOOD PARASITES OF ANURANS FROM COSTA RICA WITH REFLECTIONS ON THE TAXONOMY OF THEIR TRYPANOSOMES and the associated bibliography...)

Also you still have not listed ten species of snail not in the genus Planorbella that have been documented to carry anuran parasites or any literature supporting your position that there are snip 1000s" endsnip of snail species that carry parasites for anurans... 

Ed


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

Yes obviously hookworms, pinworms, and annelids GENERALLY only infect adult stages. Im mostly talking about cestodes and trematodes. I have no references, just a few books I have read, and stuff I learned in invertebrate zoology, vertebrate, and herp zoology classes.


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 041902.php

Do you say no to this as well? Im done arguing on the geeknet with some "thinks he knows it all".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Do you say no to this as well? Im done arguing on the geeknet with some "thinks he knows it all"."endsnip

I don't have to say no to this at all as your "proof" lists not only the snail genus Planorbella but specifies the parasite Ribeiroia ondatarae...
(quoting from your reference snip" by exposure to the parasitic trematode Ribeiroia ondatrae, whose larvae infect amphibians near the base of hind limbs and form cysts that lead to limb malformations."endsnip ) (which is exactly what I was saying from the beginning).. As this is the same parasite that I listed all along which you claim is not the one you were referring to (quoting you snip "Well OBVIOUSLY this isn't the species I was referring to."endsnip) I am still waiting for not only the species you were referring to but a reference to back up your claim you were referring to a different species... 


snip " Im mostly talking about cestodes and trematodes. I have no references, just a few books I have read, and stuff I learned in invertebrate zoology, vertebrate, and herp zoology classes"endsnip


So this statement still doesn't explain how frogs that have direct develoment aquire cestodes and trematode infections (unless you are now taking the position that they do not get cestodes and trematodes?) if these mainly infect the tadpole stage of the frog... 
In addition the above statement is a very different from your position a couple of post ago that stated snip "And actually most, if not all of the parasites that I have read or heard about are only capable of infecting tadpole stages."endsnip
but it is still incorrect..... while many trematodes often use mollusks (not only snails but freshwater mussles and clams depending on the species of trematode involved) cestodes often use arthropods such as copepods, isopods and insects as thier intermediary hosts... 

Ed


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## Frogsarethashit (Jan 14, 2007)

Yeah thanks for assuming that you know all of my positions. Might as well be assuimg when Im going to take my next dump too.


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## Red Eye (Jan 8, 2007)

And to think I was having problems with no people posting at first LOL

Honestly Frogsarethashit, I think your way in over your head on this one in my opinon. Im not saying you don't have knowledge about the subject, it's just that you dont have all the info to make a clear and accurate reply.

Red Eye


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok I have cleaned this thread up a bit and I would urge everyone involved to keep the bashing and personal attacks out of the posts.


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