# Vivarium temperature in a cold room



## maysher (Sep 3, 2012)

I have a 35 gal tall glass aquarium setup that has been up for a very long time just with plants (mostly bromeliads). I'm not new to keeping herps and fish and have some past experience with dendrobatid frogs. 

The problem is keeping this enclosure at the right temperature in the winter. The room can get to be in the mid to high 50s in the winter on really cold days and without any supplemental heat (other than LED lights which of course isn't much) it seems to stay around 59-60 or so inside the terrarium. In the spring/summer the room stays about 68-74 which is perfect. It's just the winter that is the problem.

My goal is to keep tincs in this enclosure. 

I've read a few threads on temperature and wonder if anyone has any new insight on this problem? 

Here is what I'm thinking. 

1. The tank is on a wooden cabinet. I was wondering about a ceramic heating element mounted underneath the cabinet pointing upwards towards the bottom of the tank, maybe 5-6 inches from the bottom of the tank. 

2. Or, an ultratherm heating pad or heat tape connected to a thermostat taped to the back of the tank (the substrate might provide too much insulation for a heat pad on the bottom, which may be an issue for the underneath ceramic element too). Can you use foil to insulate a heat pad or tape mounted on the back of a tank?

3. A dome fixture with a ceramic heating element on top of the tank. The lid is I think about 1/4-1/2" acrylic so I worry the heating element might melt the acrylic? (I've only ever had ceramic elements on metal screens before). 

4. Is it possible to mount a thermostat-controlled low wattage heating element inside the tank? It is pretty tall so I could mount it on the lid facing down and away from the animals but I worry about running that setup in a high humidity environment.

5. Some combination of these approaches? 

I probably need to raise the temperature inside the enclosure about 10-12 degrees (at least).

Any advice? I know, I know, the best option is heating the room but I'm trying to avoid that for cost reasons. 

I've had this tank setup for a very long time just as a nice display of bromeliads and I think it's high time for it to have some frogs as well. 

Thanks all!


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## Androgynoid (Sep 3, 2020)

What I have found helpful when it gets cold here, is to set up a space heater in the same room. This does necessitate a humidifier as well (for me at least), but ultimately a humidifier was cheaper than a thermostat + heating pad. You may have different considerations. Out here in CO, it can get pretty dry, so your husbandry needs are likely different than mine.

I have also heard good things about using an external heating pad, hooked up to a thermostat, and run along a spot without too much insulation, or underneath if you keep a non-negligible drainage layer. If I recall, ceramic heat emitters are a no-no for dart frogs but you should wait until someone more knowledgeable can confirm that.

If you're considering a thermostat anyways, your best bet may be to run some Heating Tape/ Cable along the inside edges of your cabinet so you can really tailor things. Considering heats tendency to rise, I dont think you'd need to run it more than halfway up your tanks height but that's just speculation on my part.


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## maysher (Sep 3, 2012)

Androgynoid said:


> What I have found helpful when it gets cold here, is to set up a space heater in the same room. This does necessitate a humidifier as well (for me at least), but ultimately a humidifier was cheaper than a thermostat + heating pad. You may have different considerations. Out here in CO, it can get pretty dry, so your husbandry needs are likely different than mine.
> 
> I have also heard good things about using an external heating pad, hooked up to a thermostat, and run along a spot without too much insulation, or underneath if you keep a non-negligible drainage layer. If I recall, ceramic heat emitters are a no-no for dart frogs but you should wait until someone more knowledgeable can confirm that.
> 
> If you're considering a thermostat anyways, your best bet may be to run some Heating Tape/ Cable along the inside edges of your cabinet so you can really tailor things. Considering heats tendency to rise, I dont think you'd need to run it more than halfway up your tanks height but that's just speculation on my part.


Good ideas. Thanks! 

I feel like the heat pad or heat tape on the back of the tank connected to a thermostat may be a good first try.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

maysher said:


> Good ideas. Thanks!
> 
> I feel like the heat pad or heat tape on the back of the tank connected to a thermostat may be a good first try.


You haven't said anything about a drainage layer or false bottom, but if you have a reservoir of water beneath your "soil" I think heating from below would be a good option for just heating the viv. Better than behind, I think. This will help set a "floor" on how low the viv RH will get, too. Could be helpful. Just be sure to keep some water in the bottom.

Heating the room part of the way to where you need to get could also be helpful. I'm thinking (as a non-frog keeper, so get a second opinion!) you'd rather have in-tank NTLs in the mid to high 60s, and DTHs about 10 degrees warmer than that. Just bumping the room up from ~58 to ~63 would be a great help to that little undertank jobbie. I have found oil-filled, radiant space heaters (What Makes Oil Heaters So Popular?) to be pretty cheap to run, and also silent and safe (much more of all those things, than anything with a fan). I have two, for different basement rooms, one being my herp room, the other being the laundry. I just use it to set a "floor" on how cold the herp room can get at night or during harsh cold snaps.

Basically, you've got a dangerously cold situation, so IMO _redundancy is your friend_. Have two mutually-supporting modes of mitigation (heating), is my advice.

Good luck!


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## maysher (Sep 3, 2012)

jgragg said:


> You haven't said anything about a drainage layer or false bottom, but if you have a reservoir of water beneath your "soil" I think heating from below would be a good option for just heating the viv. Better than behind, I think. This will help set a "floor" on how low the viv RH will get, too. Could be helpful. Just be sure to keep some water in the bottom.
> 
> Heating the room part of the way to where you need to get could also be helpful. I'm thinking (as a non-frog keeper, so get a second opinion!) you'd rather have in-tank NTLs in the mid to high 60s, and DTHs about 10 degrees warmer than that. Just bumping the room up from ~58 to ~63 would be a great help to that little undertank jobbie. I have found oil-filled, radiant space heaters (What Makes Oil Heaters So Popular?) to be pretty cheap to run, and also silent and safe (much more of all those things, than anything with a fan). I have two, for different basement rooms, one being my herp room, the other being the laundry. I just use it to set a "floor" on how cold the herp room can get at night or during harsh cold snaps.
> 
> ...


Good advice. There is a drainage layer on the bottom, then one of those screen separators that Josh's frogs sells and then at least a couple inches of ABG on top of that. My worry heating from the bottom is that is too much insulation between the heater beneath the tank and the rest of the terrarium. 

Thanks


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

maysher said:


> Good advice. There is a drainage layer on the bottom, then one of those screen separators that Josh's frogs sells and then at least a couple inches of ABG on top of that. My worry heating from the bottom is that is too much insulation between the heater beneath the tank and the rest of the terrarium.
> 
> Thanks


If you can keep a small level of water in the bottom, and the heat pad can heat up that water to a ~70 degree temperature from the bottom, the water will hold the temperature quite well I would suspect. Water is a great way to keep a stable temperature, as it won't swing in temperature rapidly.

In any of the above scenarios, it sounds like you can test out some options and see what works best before introducing any frogs, which is a good idea!


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## maysher (Sep 3, 2012)

Chris S said:


> If you can keep a small level of water in the bottom, and the heat pad can heat up that water to a ~70 degree temperature from the bottom, the water will hold the temperature quite well I would suspect. Water is a great way to keep a stable temperature, as it won't swing in temperature rapidly.
> 
> In any of the above scenarios, it sounds like you can test out some options and see what works best before introducing any frogs, which is a good idea!


Yes. I thought about this. I can keep some standing water in the drainage layer. I'm sure you're right and this might hold heat coming from the bottom layer better than just the drainage layer alone? 

I've been experimenting a little with this setup for a while and found if I keep too much water below the ABG substrate that it needs changing more often. But I have a pump driven airline going under the substrate to keep the layer below the substrate from getting too anaerobic. 

Thanks.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Applying 2 heat radiating gear, cable, flex watt, uth, to back and side cabinet interior in diagonal strategy works better than going from below or using a single mat anywhere on the glass.

But nothing beats a stable room. Like with an oil heater. 

Its a precious truth in all manner of practices to have a second catch precaution wherever consequences could be severe.

A disaster averted is never aknowledged. I find.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Kmc said:


> But nothing beats a stable room.


This is the real answer, to be perfectly honest.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Just FYI, a viv heated that far above ambient will be fogged all the time. An internal fan won't help, because the problem is the temp differential at the glass. Venting won't help, since that will let the heat out faster than you can put it in.

Personally, if heating the room was ruled out, I'd either keep a different species of frog in there -- one that appreciates those temps -- or move the viv.


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## Justin3 (Sep 28, 2020)

I had essentially the same problem, my room can get into the 50s during the winter. Initially I put a heat pad on the bottom of the tank but this did not really have enough of an effect. So, I moved the heating pad to the side of the tank so that there is no substrate or background blocking it. I put a small thermometer in the tank and this positioning of the heating pad seemed to do the trick. If one isn't enough then I'd suggest just getting two and putting both on the sides of the tank. 

Just make sure to monitor the internal temperature just in case. 

Hope this was helpful.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

If it is just cost you are worried about have you done any estimate of how much it would cost to raise the temp of the room to 70 degrees for the season? I used an inkbird wifi thermostat with some heat cables. Cost me a hundred dollars per tank. 25W would need to be inside the tank to do any good. 25W outside of the tank might only raise the temp a few degrees.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I seem to remember here reading about a small equipment that eliminates foggy front glass. It sounded streamlined and effective. 

Physical laws can be worked with. Physically, not ideologically.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That is the Solar Raptor. Needs a front vented viv to work -- not a fish tank.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Thanks for the clarification and mention.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That is the Solar Raptor. Needs a front vented viv to work -- not a fish tank.


Also incredibly difficult to find, at least this side of the pond...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

SimonL said:


> Also incredibly difficult to find, at least this side of the pond...


 In EU, there seem to be a handful of sellers (and at least one in the Netherlands -- 'Rainforest-Frogs'). 

Here in the US, there is one one seller, on eBay, who has only one seller review and it is negative.


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## SimonL (Aug 29, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> In EU, there seem to be a handful of sellers (and at least one in the Netherlands -- 'Rainforest-Frogs').
> 
> Here in the US, there is one one seller, on eBay, who has only one seller review and it is negative.


Yes, there are a couple, but they only have the 1150mm version in stock (without the power supply, although an equivalent should be easy enough to find). According to the seller in the US, there are many different sizes, but I can’t find a website for Solar Raptor anywhere, and on the website of Econlux (which appears to either be a distributor or the manufacturer of Solar Raptor) they make no mention of the HeatStrip product. Assuming it has been discontinued


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I guess ive not been too bothered by bib of fog, an open and swipe w pt, or a sweep with my mister hose. Inconvenience is like the most prevalent theme of my life!

I have allowed even applied subtle and not so subtle visual barriers where i have worked to stealth protect them from consumer interest.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Personally, if heating the room was ruled out, I'd either keep a different species of frog in there -- one that appreciates those temps -- or move the viv.


Worth repeating, and seriously considering. I would even expand it beyond "frog". Salamanders can be great fun. Nearly all are native to temperate regions - they can be hard to keep if you can't keep them cool (I know keepers that have dedicated cool rooms for them). Not sure where in the US you are located but most places have at least one species to contemplate. Some places have dozens...from fully terrestrial to fully aquatic, and even a few arboreal and crevice / cliff dwellers.

Not to derail you, just exploring how you could work with what you've already got - with the right mindset it's a desirable feature, not something that needs to be overcome.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

JGragg makes outstanding suggestions, regularly, and this is one.

Where others struggle conversely to keep their caudates cool, usually reptile guys in reptile facilities where basement storage rooms that are used to cool the pit and lampro pairs are no place to showcase the charm and *Stunning Beauty *of these guys, that easily live for decades.

You have the gift of ambience handed on a platter. Explore. Caudates are the most underrated animals in herpetoculture.


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