# Live oak or oak?



## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Which is best? I don't have any live oaks around here, but just boiled a whole bunch of regular oak leaves, but are these ok? When I was getting them, I thought, "this doesn't look like what everyone else was using" but they seem like they'd work just fine.


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

What are you going to be using them for? If it's for leaf litter I've heard of some people using oak, especially chopped up in the substrate for the springs and isos.

If you're using it for the top layer of leaf litter I'd probably try to use "live oak" or magnolia, but that's just mho.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

You can use oak (red, chestnut, white, black, pin, water, scarlet, willow...the list goes on) for all viv-leaf related uses. If you are using oak leaves as your top layer of leaf litter be ready to replace it relatively often. This is not necessarily a bad thing though, just means that you are feeding your viv clean up crew and making better soil. I mix shredded oak leaves of differing levels of decomposition (leaf mold) into my substrates and I believe it boosts plant growth and iso production. If you want something you don't have to replace often go with live oak or magnolia. There are other types that last a long time, but I can't give any input on these because I have only used live oak and mag...they both work great.


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## trevtron2 (Aug 27, 2011)

DO you need to have leaf litter of some sort in a viv?


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

trevtron2 said:


> DO you need to have leaf litter of some sort in a viv?


No, but it is good for the frogs (a hiding place, they are more bold with it i hear) and the microfauna...

Not to mention it brings a natural feel...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Regular oak works fine and is great for microfauna but it does have to be replaced more often as it breaks down. I use Red Oak all the time primarily because I have a tree in my backyard. I also use Live Oak and Magnolia.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

The best leaf litter for microfauna is layered. The bottom layer can and should be composed of leaves that break down quickly. The middle layer should "fluff up" the litter and prevent it from being a flat saturated mass of organic slop. I use a lot of twigs and small pieces of bark, plus some curled live oak or small magnolia leaves in the middle layer. I then top it off with decorative and durable magnolia or larger live oak leaves. Of course, living in Florida, I have access to all these types of leaves. You can pick them up at Josh's Frogs, NE Herp, Tropical Ecos, among others. I suggest a leaf litter layer that is at least 3 inches thick for obligate egg feeders. This can support a healthy population of springs, isos, mites, and other microfauna.

I would caution you to boil any leaves before using them to avoid snails, millipedes, spiders, and unwanted fungus.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I use penn oak, white oak, and magnolia all the time for leaf litter since I have a near unlimited supply (in my backyard) and they last for awhile, but then I have trash bags full of them to replace whenever I need. 
Like JimO said, I also use other types of leaves that decompose much faster, like maples and bradford pears, so that they break down soon and give the microfauna plenty to eat, while the hardier leaves can be more for the frog's hiding and such.
Bryan


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks for the great responses guys. I mixed in about half my leaf litter in ti my substrate, and will use the other half for regular leaf litter. I'm used to replacing the leaf litter, as in my first tank I used aspen as my leaf litter, and i've had to replace it twice in only about 2 months, and was surprised at how much thicker oaks were than aspen or maple. I'm using red oak that I collected outside (pestiside free  I also microwaved them for 12 minutes)


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

trevtron2 said:


> DO you need to have leaf litter of some sort in a viv?


If you've ever visited a tropical rainforest, the forest floor is covered a few feet deep with leaves/decomposed leaves that dart frogs utilize, and they will be much more bold knowing safety is "only a hop away" in the leaves. Leaf litter is very important and as the other poster said, looks better than just substrate.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

JimO said:


> The best leaf litter for microfauna is layered. The bottom layer can and should be composed of leaves that break down quickly. The middle layer should "fluff up" the litter and prevent it from being a flat saturated mass of organic slop. I use a lot of twigs and small pieces of bark, plus some curled live oak or small magnolia leaves in the middle layer. I then top it off with decorative and durable magnolia or larger live oak leaves. Of course, living in Florida, I have access to all these types of leaves. You can pick them up at Josh's Frogs, NE Herp, Tropical Ecos, among others. I suggest a leaf litter layer that is at least 3 inches thick for obligate egg feeders. This can support a healthy population of springs, isos, mites, and other microfauna.
> 
> I would caution you to boil any leaves before using them to avoid snails, millipedes, spiders, and unwanted fungus.


Thanks JimO. My leaf litter isn't flat like live oak or some well dried magnoila leaves, but it's somewhat mixed. Some are nice and flat, some are really curled.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

I have to agree with the general consesus. The other thing to keep in mind estethics. I like my tanks to look good as well. I personally use strangler fig leaves as my faster breaking down layer. They just grow microfauna better than anything I've found thus far. Not to mention I've recently found out strangler figs and other large ficus trees grow in many of the same areas pdf's are found. Does that mean anything... who knows. All I know is springs and isopods LOVE them!!

As for a top layer I like to use live oaks (they look great and smell good too!!) in my smaller vivs and verts. For larger tanks I almost exclusively use sea oak leaves. They dont break down real fast, bugs love them, and they look very tropical. On top of that and strewn throughout the bottom I'm also using a type of palm frond "leaf". Not the entire frond just the long pieces that I would call the leaf. It just looks good!!! It breaks down semi fast but I love how it looks. I love the look of sea grapes... they look like Halloween!!

I personally dont use a lot of magnolia's but they are VERY popular and look REALLY good in the vivs as well. They also take quite a long time to break down. 

I just experiment with different types of leaves and see what works best. So far that's my recipe lol. And it seems to be working well!! My frogs are all fat and happy and the viv's are full of little bugs for them to munch on whenever they want. 

Like others have said I would boil them. If for no other reason than to kill snails!!! They can be a pain once they get in your viv. I boil them then microwave them for 30 seconds twice. Boiling them does make the leaf break down a bit faster though. So if you're only using northern oaks and "thin" leaves that break down fast boiling will make them go much faster.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Feelin Froggy said:


> I have to agree with the general consesus. The other thing to keep in mind estethics. I like my tanks to look good as well. I personally use strangler fig leaves as my faster breaking down layer. They just grow microfauna better than anything I've found thus far. Not to mention I've recently found out strangler figs and other large ficus trees grow in many of the same areas pdf's are found. Does that mean anything... who knows. All I know is springs and isopods LOVE them!!
> 
> As for a top layer I like to use live oaks (they look great and smell good too!!) in my smaller vivs and verts. For larger tanks I almost exclusively use sea oak leaves. They dont break down real fast, bugs love them, and they look very tropical. On top of that and strewn throughout the bottom I'm also using a type of palm frond "leaf". Not the entire frond just the long pieces that I would call the leaf. It just looks good!!! It breaks down semi fast but I love how it looks. I love the look of sea grapes... they look like Halloween!!
> 
> ...


I microwaved for 12 minutes, and here in Colorado, snails, HA! They practically don't exist here. It's as dry here as in arizona or the mojavi desert. The only thing i'd worry about in the ways of bugs would be if I wild collected moss, i've seen lots of mites come with my moss here. I just microwaved boiled them to kill any bacteria and to clean them. There's still a little bit of dirt on them from where I collected 'em but if that's a huge issue, I have an ultrasonic cleaner that'll take it off.


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Just curious but if you do have snails why do you nuke them? I like all the bugs in my tanks... and so do the frogs


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I found snails munching on the eggs in my petri dish once - that's a good enough reason to kill them. They'll also eat your plants if they're allowed to propagate.

I kinda laughed when you mentioned 'regular' oak leaves. I read somewhere that there are over 80 species of oaks in the U.S. alone, and quite a few more world wide. I'll pick up whatever oak leaves I can find, except willow oak, and that's because they are so slender. I also have red oak, water oak, white oak, burr oak, and a few others that I can't remember. I don't know what the 'regular' oak tree would be around here.

Definitely boil them to kill the nasties. I add 2 to 3 inches of damp leaves to my tanks and seed them thoroughly with springs and woodlice and such. The best thing they do is break down and add organic matter to your substrate, not to mention good food for the bugs.

kristi


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

guppygal said:


> I found snails munching on the eggs in my petri dish once - that's a good enough reason to kill them. They'll also eat your plants if they're allowed to propagate.
> 
> I kinda laughed when you mentioned 'regular' oak leaves. I read somewhere that there are over 80 species of oaks in the U.S. alone, and quite a few more world wide. I'll pick up whatever oak leaves I can find, except willow oak, and that's because they are so slender. I also have red oak, water oak, white oak, burr oak, and a few others that I can't remember. I don't know what the 'regular' oak tree would be around here.
> 
> ...


Regular oak vs live oak. Both terms are real terms, a non live oak is either called a regular oak or just oak


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Feelin Froggy said:


> Just curious but if you do have snails why do you nuke them? I like all the bugs in my tanks... and so do the frogs


Ants (They like to eat my plants) and spiders! (Lots of scary spiders where I live  )


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Neontra said:


> Regular oak vs live oak. Both terms are real terms, a non live oak is either called a regular oak or just oak


No kidding? I'm gonna have to look that up. I've heard of evergreen and deciduous, so maybe that's it.

Is it safe to say that 'regular' is a broad term regarding several kinds of oaks?

It's always a learning experience


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

Oops. Had a typo on there. Sometimes I mean to say one thing and the t9 feature on my phone wants to say something totally different lol.

Meant to say if you DON'T have snails... I had them in a viv one time and before I could get rid of the adults they had laid at least a million eggs lol. I finally got them all out but what a pain!! Took months!! I didn't see them eating eggs but they beat my plants up pretty bad!


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I'm sure that there are botanical terms that differentiate the different oaks, but you can divide them into two basic categories - large leaf and small leaf oaks. Oaks that grow in colder climates (Red Oaks, White Oaks, Chestnut Oaks, etc.) generally grow in colder climates and have the large multi-lobed leaves (the chestnut oak is an exception). In the south, we have Blackjack Oaks and Turkey Oaks, with the same type of leaf. These types of oak leaves are thin and typically break down quickly in a moist environment.

In the south there are several species of oak that have small leaves. Some examples are Laurel Oaks, Water Oaks, Willow Oaks, and Live Oaks. Of these, live oaks grow the thickest leaves. They also tend to have curled margins and due to their thickness, they are durable and the curled shape is maintain for quite some time. This is what makes them so good for giving structure to the leaf litter. Live oak leaves also come in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. Some trees have fairly small flat leaves, while other have large and/or curled leaves. I find that saplings overshadowed by larger trees often produce the larger and more curled leaves. I suppose this is to maximize the leaf surface to the sun from every angle.

Anyway, all oak leaves are suitable for leaf litter, but most are not durable enough to create a proper leaf litter in a viv. If you mix some twigs, acorn caps, and small pieces of bark to the middle layer, it will help support the structure and provide openings and voids. This allows for better drainage, oxygen to enter the substrate, more surface area for microfauna, and it creates hide spots for froglets. Durable curled leaves do the same and are good for the top layer.



guppygal said:


> No kidding? I'm gonna have to look that up. I've heard of evergreen and deciduous, so maybe that's it.
> 
> Is it safe to say that 'regular' is a broad term regarding several kinds of oaks?
> 
> It's always a learning experience


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## Feelin Froggy (May 12, 2011)

I agree with Jim... I use lots of twigs and acorn caps in my vivs. I think they look cool and add something to the function of leaf litter, especially with the smaller leaved live oaks we have in the south. I don't tend to use as many sticks and twigs in my vivs with sea grape or magnolia leaves. I feel the size of those leaves create enough volume and void space themselves and the twigs and sticks are not as necessary.


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Acorns? Didn't know you could use those in vivs lol. Cool


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

No, I wouldn't recommend the acorns themselves.  They'll either sprout or rot. I just use the acorn caps - the part of the stem that holds the acorn.


Neontra said:


> Acorns? Didn't know you could use those in vivs lol. Cool


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

JimO said:


> No, I wouldn't recommend the acorns themselves.  They'll either sprout or rot. I just use the acorn caps - the part of the stem that holds the acorn.


Haha, get your own supply of leaf litter. But that's what I meant, lol


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