# "Farm Raised" ?



## Dendrobatid

Just curious to know what people think when they see "Farm Raised" animals for sale? Are they really raised in a captive situation? or are they plucked out of the wild and placed in a holding facility, until they have time for their numbers to be built up. I know with other herp species like _Python regius _ that "Farm Raised" is nothing more than wild caught. Just curious if it is similar in the Dendrobatid world.

Thanks,

Jim Giacobbe


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## edwing206

I think the general consensus on this forum is that the "farm raised" frogs, especially O. Pumilio are nothing more than wild caught frogs. I make an effort to buy only captive bred for the sake of doing my part in preserving wild populations. It may not be much but I think it adds up when a lot of people do the same.


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## Eric Walker

I agree. although I have purchased wc treefrogs in the past.


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## Mitch

When I hear "farm raised" I think of WC, and nothing else.


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## JimO

I found this out after buying some "farm raised" pumilio. I was even told about the "farming" operation (outdoor enclosures open to the rain with fruit placed inside to attract fruit flies). I was really disappointed to find out the truth and don't plan to buy any more "farmed" frogs.

These operations are permitted by the host nation and they have to document the number exported, but I've been told that some nations just don't care about conservation as much as others. That's why you see "farm raised" frogs coming out of only a few countries.


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## SamsonsFrogs

I myself stay far away from farm raised. Not only to do my part in preserving the species ,but also so i dont purchase any frogs with Diseases our parasites. Most respectable breeders here on DB have their froglets fecals tested and and get them dewormed. Dont get me wrong , I still deworm and QT any new frogs, or froglets before sell or introducing into their new environment. 

I have never purchased Farm Raised Frogs , but I have heard and read many bad stories.


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## JimO

Although this gets into another matter entirely, I do think they are related. As I understand it, many "farm raised" frogs are collected by locals, so there is no reliable locale data. Unfortunately, the vast majority of frogs in the hobby don't have good locale data, which increases the chance of breeding frogs in captivity that might look similar, but whose wild populations are physically separated and would not ever come into contact. Conversely, some populations (such as certain Bastimentos populations) have a tremendous color variety within a given population, but hobbyists breed like-colored specimens instead of breeding the different color variations from the same wild population.

My point is that "farm raised" frogs could be mixtures of populations or could be from a highly varied contiguous population. So, if you do have "farm raised" frogs or are purchasing their offspring, try to keep the import groups together. There is a higher probability that a single import group came from the same region than groups collected over several years.

My future purchases will likely be limited to those that have good locale data.


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## frogparty

When I hear "farm raised" frogs I just figure they were living on someones pineappple or banana farm, and were wild collected. Sure they came off a "farm" but its not a farm for raising frogs. Although I would bet there could be a lot of good pumilio habitat on a pineapple farm


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## stemcellular

I assume they are WC frogs.


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## Philsuma

I've tried VERY hard to uncover evidence of ANY type of pumilio "farming operation"....

and in all the people, I've talked to - research scientists in-country, native citizens and industry people...not one single person has indicated that they have ever seen or heard of such a thing as a pumilio farming opertation, or even a "sustainable plot of land" like a cocoa plantation or large screened in facility.

There are no Farms, as far as I'm concerned.


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## ChrisK

I'm not arguing the point in one direction or the other, but what's this? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms-3.html#post187327


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## MonarchzMan

frogparty said:


> When I hear "farm raised" frogs I just figure they were living on someones pineappple or banana farm, and were wild collected. Sure they came off a "farm" but its not a farm for raising frogs. Although I would bet there could be a lot of good pumilio habitat on a pineapple farm


Pineapple farms would be virtual deserts for pumilio. They're grown in monoculture and in full sun, so there isn't a frog around that would go for a pineapple farm. Banana and cacao plantations potentially provide suitable habitat because they keep a closed canopy, but the BIG caveat to that is that they would have to be low use and no pesticides, and on anything more than a few plants, there will be too much disturbance for the frogs.

I've been all around the area in Bocas and have talked to numerous locals, and there are not any farms. On more than one occasion, I had to pay a lot more money for going onto particular areas because people traditionally go there to collect frogs. I've seen pictures of "farms" but oddly enough, when I ask where they are or if I can visit, there is a no-go (you would think that if folks truly had farms that were truly breeding the frogs on-site, then they'd be all for showing that to folks). The "farms" that exist only exist so that exporters can get around CITES regulations for pumilio.

Nijman and Shepherd (2010) had an interesting figure in their paper on the role of Asian trade on dart frogs. From 2004-2008, 14956 pumilio were exported globally and reported to CITES. Of that, only 400 were reported as wild caught. I call a big ol' BS on that one. Only 100 WC frogs per year coming in? Not a chance in the world.


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## MonarchzMan

ChrisK said:


> I'm not arguing the point in one direction or the other, but what's this? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms-3.html#post187327


The problem with this is that no one actually knows where this place is (it very easily could be in Florida, for that matter; there is no indication that it's actually in Panama). When asked, the site has remained secret. The key, IMO, is that there is reproduction going on, and I just don't see that happening. There are eggs, but there is no evidence IMO, that that is the only frogs that eventually go out. Farmed frogs are coming in with scrapes and scars, which you really should not see in captive frogs. I've spoken with Chris van der Lingen and he's said the same about them not being around (and he's been all over the Bocas region).


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## tim13

I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.


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## frogmanchu

i think we should all stick to captive breed frogs. it leaves frogs in this world to do there jobs Eat Bugs lol. really tho i think we do enuff damage by deforesting why take everything from nature let it keep it beauty and secrets. jus my belief


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## Philsuma

tim13 said:


> I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.


And, I can tell you this from being down there....


If you are a ****** and want to export some frogs, you absolutely need:

1. An excellent command of Spanish language.

2. An "in" like a relative, wife, girlfriend, someone seriously trusted.

3. both 1 and 2.



Or most likely, you and your bank account....will get rolled.


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## Dendroguy

I think they just buy large areas of land and say anything there is 'farm raised'


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## MonarchzMan

Dendroguy said:


> I think they just buy large areas of land and say anything there is 'farm raised'


This wouldn't necessarily be a problem, but I would guess that this actually isn't the issue since there are many morphs coming in..


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## frogface

tim13 said:


> I've spoken to a reputable breeder, who's name I will not mention, about a frog farm he is setting up. My understanding is its a long process to get all the red tape taken care of with the local govt of wherever the farm is. Also, I remember him telling me that no frogs can be harvested from the farm until the f2 generation. Even then, he is only allowed 5 pairs of each species to be exported. Keep in mind, o. Pumilio are all the SAME species so even though he may be farming several morphs, they count toward his 5 pairs per species limit. This is all information I got from an hour long phone conversation with this person.


I think I'm not understanding what you're saying here. This person is setting up a farm and raising frogs to F2 so that he can export 5 pairs of pumilios?


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## Dendrobatid

How would be sure that the frogs were F2?


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## tim13

Dendrobatid said:


> How would be sure that the frogs were F2?


What I mean is, they have to breed/hatch/morph 2 generations of frogs successfully before they can export. Yes, I was TOLD 5 pairs per species is his limit, I believe, each year. It is likely, once he gets these 5 pairs in the states I PRESUME he breeds these pairs to produce captive bred offspring. I would have to speak with him again, or maybe try to get him to post on here how he does it.


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## JJuchems

I have spent a lot of time researching this topic (off forums) looking for hard evidence here are a few quick links I have found online that I can share. There are actual pictures of farming practices. 

Pumilio Farm: 
welcome

Here is an old thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms.html


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## tim13

Am I the only one who dosen't see much wrong with the above link (first one)? The only thing that annoyed me was them holding all the frogs by one leg. I guess if you hold hundreds of frogs a day that may be the easiest way... Still, It LOOKED like a "farming" type setup. Lots of separate locations for different morphs. That pic with the Pumilio all on that small branch with the cups attached was great.


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## Philsuma

JJuchems said:


> . *There are actual pictures of farming practices.*
> 
> Pumilio Farm:
> welcome
> 
> Here is an old thread:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms.html


Unless you know firsthand, who took those photos, then we may as well be talking about bigfoot.....I'm skeptical.

And that old chestnut of "we can't disclose the location due to bla bla"....well, again...as long as we have a respected U.S Hobbyist that can say "yep...I took those pics....I can verify.....we can't say where the Farm is exactly, but yes, I can report that it is a real operation".

Until I have that, I'm not buyin' it......


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## PeanutbuttER

In that first link I wonder how those open-topped enclosures are working out for them. Are the wild frogs allowed to come and go as they please then?


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## Philsuma

tim13 said:


> The only thing that annoyed me was them holding all the frogs by one leg.


that's actually the accepted way to hold small frogs.....you can alternately use the fleshy part of the side, back part of your thumb and the side / fleshy part of your pointer finger - just like you are making a "mouth" with your hand....if that makes sense.


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## JJuchems

Sorry, I have been very busy lately, but I want to add a bit of a counter point, here is a good read about numbers of exports and suspensions due to productivity of species. Just search pumilio in the PDF:

http://www.cites.org/common/com/SC/57/E57-29-02A2.pdf


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## JimO

If that is a real frog farming/breeding facility, then I have no problem at all with it myself. Philosphically, I don't even have a problem with WC frogs as long as it is legal and wild populations are not affected. Heck, every frog in the hobby ultimately is descended from a WC frog. And, there needs to be some influx of new frogs occasionally so they aren't overly inbred. All populations of plants and animals can sustain a certain amount of harvesting, particularly if their habitat is preserved and/or enhanced. If a farming operation was simply a tract of land with good habitat that was preserved because a frog harvesting operation brought the owner enough income to maintain it, possibly improve the habitat, and make a decent living, then I'd applaud it. That sure beats clear cutting it for timber or once-through farming.

What I do have a problem with is sloppy collecting practices that result in a high mortality rate and smugglers who pay the natives pennies for each frog knowing most won't survive. I would be willing to pay quite a bit more for a frog that was collected carefully, or bred in a "farming" operation, as long as the frog was healthy and there was good locale information on the frog. I bet there are others who would as well.


tim13 said:


> Am I the only one who dosen't see much wrong with the above link (first one)? The only thing that annoyed me was them holding all the frogs by one leg. I guess if you hold hundreds of frogs a day that may be the easiest way... Still, It LOOKED like a "farming" type setup. Lots of separate locations for different morphs. That pic with the Pumilio all on that small branch with the cups attached was great.


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## Philsuma

Quite right....Ethics is a whole other issue.

I am 100% ok with WC frogs from a lot of different places / countries.

But we just need to call a "spade a spade" here and get real with this "Farm" misconception.


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## frogfreak

JimO said:


> I would be willing to pay quite a bit more for a frog that was collected carefully, or bred in a "farming" operation, as long as the frog was healthy and there was good locale information on the frog. * I bet there are others who would as well.*


Yep, there is Jim. Me...

I agree with you 100%. I bet there a lot of froggers who feel the same way.


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## Ross

PeanutbuttER said:


> In that first link I wonder how those open-topped enclosures are working out for them. Are the wild frogs allowed to come and go as they please then?


The metal lip around the perimeter of the enclosure likely keeps most of the frogs from escaping, but I don't see a lip on the opposite site to prevent "wild" frogs from joining the captive ones.


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## Azurel

Philsuma said:


> Unless you know firsthand, who took those photos, then we may as well be talking about bigfoot.....I'm skeptical.
> 
> And that old chestnut of "we can't disclose the location due to bla bla"....well, again...as long as we have a respected U.S Hobbyist that can say "yep...I took those pics....I can verify.....we can't say where the Farm is exactly, but yes, I can report that it is a real operation".
> 
> Until I have that, I'm not buyin' it......


In the second link Marcus of SNDF says they are their pics....Can one assume they took them? Since they also say " These photos by SNDF can not be reproduced or copied without the expressed permission of SNDF."

So if both of those links has real farms then we know that there are 2, not enough to supply demand I am sure of that.


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## Dendrobatid

I feel another issue that is sometimes overlooked, is the fact that a lot of the countries that have these "Farms" it is illegal to export wild animals. So what better way to dress these little herps up as Holsteins and send them to other countries under the guise of being captive bred and born. It's a shame that countless numbers of animals have to suffer, just so a few greedy folks can make some green. I'm not against importing to bolster genetic diversity in species that really need the help. As long as it is legal and totally on the up and up. But to do it, and lie about their origins is just unacceptable!


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## frogmanchu

my thought captive bred. looked at it and still feel as if we are doing the frog no justice by housing them like that. Now okay you have grouping frogs yes cool, but what about the species that arent grouping frogs can you say that they are being keep in different ways. I see a money machine not someone that cares about the frog just the money in the hobby and the greed of us wanting what we can't have




JJuchems said:


> I have spent a lot of time researching this topic (off forums) looking for hard evidence here are a few quick links I have found online that I can share. There are actual pictures of farming practices.
> 
> Pumilio Farm:
> welcome
> 
> Here is an old thread:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/20396-frog-farms.html


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## tim13

frogmanchu said:


> my thought captive bred. looked at it and still feel as if we are doing the frog no justice by housing them like that. Now okay you have grouping frogs yes cool, but what about the species that arent grouping frogs can you say that they are being keep in different ways. I see a money machine not someone that cares about the frog just the money in the hobby and the greed of us wanting what we can't have


Overcrowding is a side effect of any farm that wants to run efficiently.


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## Ed

tim13 said:


> Overcrowding is a side effect of any farm that wants to run efficiently.


 
Actually this is incorrect... factory style farming is run this way to attempt to maximize production and profits but sustainable farming doesn't work in that manner and is still profitable. 

There are a couple of exceptions where you need to crowd to prevent aggression issues (alligator farming) and excessive damage to the animals as a threshold density is needed to prevent territorial aggressions. 


Ed


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## Ed

Dendrobatid said:


> I feel another issue that is sometimes overlooked, is the fact that a lot of the countries that have these "Farms" it is illegal to export wild animals.


 
One of the things that needs to be kept in the front of this discussion is that the goverment of that country can issue export permits that are legal. It is export without the permit that is illegal. 

The better question to ask, is how many adults of each pumilio type would be needed to produce the number of sexually mature frogs of each type that we are seeing in the shipments? 

Ed


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## tim13

Ed said:


> Actually this is incorrect... factory style farming is run this way to attempt to maximize production and profits but sustainable farming doesn't work in that manner and is still profitable.
> 
> There are a couple of exceptions where you need to crowd to prevent aggression issues (alligator farming) and excessive damage to the animals as a threshold density is needed to prevent territorial aggressions.
> 
> 
> Ed


Don't most PDF's especially Pumilio have similar aggression issues with each other? So could the high density of the farm's frogs be a preventative measure as much as a production measure?


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## MonarchzMan

Even if it was such a preventative measure (I'm personally skeptical), there is no way that there are enough rearing sites for all of those frogs. I mean, if you consider a female may be able to take care of 6 tadpoles over the course of two months, and then consider that there are probably 100+ individuals (probably 100 females along) in one of those holding areas. There is no way that there are enough sites there to accommodate all of those tadpoles. I think you'd have tadpoles eating tadpoles and females eating eggs of other females in such an area.

Such crowding is more indicative of a holding area to me than a breeding area.


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## Ed

tim13 said:


> Don't most PDF's especially Pumilio have similar aggression issues with each other? So could the high density of the farm's frogs be a preventative measure as much as a production measure?


 
There are some strong indications that pumilio density is dependent on resource availability, if you have a copy of Lotters book, there is a great example of this in one of the pumilio pictures. With that said, we don't have a good handle on how this translates in a captive enviroment so I don't think this is how the "farmed" pumilio are being housed.. 

Ed


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## MonarchzMan

Ed said:


> There are some strong indications that pumilio density is dependent on resource availability


Part of my thesis covers this, and it's quite true. I was able to effectively double the density in experimental quadrats with the addition of rearing sites.


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## Ed

Hi JP,

Did you try to manipulate calling sites as well? 

Ed


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## MonarchzMan

I wasn't able to do that (trying to be as non-invasive as possible), so I just manipulated number of rearing sites and leaf litter (as a food surrogate), and the rearing sites is what showed the big increase.


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## tim13

Im not in any way defending farming practices, or attacking them, just discussing possibilities. The crowding does seem to be reminiscent of puppy mills. Im am absolutely sure this leads to every frog having every parasite the others do. However, the size of the enclosure vs. The size of the frog brings to question, how big of an area do Pumilio live in? Its doubtful they travel around a lot. Seems likely they stick to their own little patch of forest. Maybe even as little as a few square yards. Population density aside, they may be in an enclosure that is about the size of an area they would normally habitate. The natural wild Pumilio population density is likely geared more toward available food and breeding sites than aggression I would think, as there are infinitely more line of sight blockers and hiding spots for pressured individuals. As for tad rearing sites, it seems likely they would daily be harvesting eggs or deposited tads and putting them in incubation tanks. That would cause the breeders to breed more as they aren't taking care of the young. As an example, if a squirrel raids a bird nest for the eggs, the parents will lay a new batch of eggs. If the original eggs aren't molested and survive, the parents focus on rearing the young versus laying more eggs.


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## Ed

tim13 said:


> Im not in any way defending farming practices, or attacking them, just discussing possibilities.


I didn't think you were, I was just pointing out that there are other models that also work without the issues you were bringing up. 




tim13 said:


> The crowding does seem to be reminiscent of puppy mills. Im am absolutely sure this leads to every frog having every parasite the others do.


I'm not sure that they wouldn't even housed in a different set-up. 



tim13 said:


> However, the size of the enclosure vs. The size of the frog brings to question, how big of an area do Pumilio live in?


It depends on the resource availability. For example female pumilio are known to ascend many meters up into the canopy for tadpole depostion sites, and they defend these sites from other females. So a single female pumilio could have a defended territory of many cubic meters.... 





tim13 said:


> Its doubtful they travel around a lot. Seems likely they stick to their own little patch of forest. Maybe even as little as a few square yards. Population density aside, they may be in an enclosure that is about the size of an area they would normally habitate. The natural wild Pumilio population density is likely geared more toward available food and breeding sites than aggression


The amount of space they naturally inhabit is pretty variable... as it is all dependent on the location of proper calling perches as well as egg and tadpole deposition sites. Food defense doesn't really enter into it as small invertebrates like ants are very prevelent. 

There was a good discussion on frognet back around 2003 on pumilio and these sorts of topics. Search the frognet.org archives for pumilio and ruderal and that should pull it up. 




tim13 said:


> I would think, as there are infinitely more line of sight blockers and hiding spots for pressured individuals. As for tad rearing sites, it seems likely they would daily be harvesting eggs or deposited tads and putting them in incubation tanks. That would cause the breeders to breed more as they aren't taking care of the young. As an example, if a squirrel raids a bird nest for the eggs, the parents will lay a new batch of eggs. If the original eggs aren't molested and survive, the parents focus on rearing the young versus laying more eggs.


 
The problem with this scenario is that the tadpoles are obligate egg feeders... so pulling tadpoles to rear doesn't give you a huge rearing advantage as you have to feed the tadpoles the eggs produced or you end up with massive losses, poor growth and developemental issues like spindly leg. If you are counting on native feeders coming into the cages to supply the needed nutrition, and you are constantly pulling eggs, then the females are also going to become nutrient depleated....


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## MonarchzMan

tim13 said:


> Im not in any way defending farming practices, or attacking them, just discussing possibilities. The crowding does seem to be reminiscent of puppy mills. Im am absolutely sure this leads to every frog having every parasite the others do. However, the size of the enclosure vs. The size of the frog brings to question, how big of an area do Pumilio live in? Its doubtful they travel around a lot. Seems likely they stick to their own little patch of forest. Maybe even as little as a few square yards. Population density aside, they may be in an enclosure that is about the size of an area they would normally habitate. The natural wild Pumilio population density is likely geared more toward available food and breeding sites than aggression I would think, as there are infinitely more line of sight blockers and hiding spots for pressured individuals. As for tad rearing sites, it seems likely they would daily be harvesting eggs or deposited tads and putting them in incubation tanks. That would cause the breeders to breed more as they aren't taking care of the young. As an example, if a squirrel raids a bird nest for the eggs, the parents will lay a new batch of eggs. If the original eggs aren't molested and survive, the parents focus on rearing the young versus laying more eggs.


I estimated density for 9 different populations, and the estimates ranged from 2.4 frogs per 100 square meters (Colon and Uyama) to 13.5 frogs per 100 square meters (Pastores). If you've ever been to the Pastores population versus others, you'd know that it's pretty ridiculously dense. Far higher than what has been previously reported. So those enclosures seem much smaller than 10m x 10m yet they have much more frogs there than even the densest pumilio populations...


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## frogmanchu

i see everyone point and we also have to consider that everything we get either hobby or food source is farmed in some way i just dont want to see the illegals that are being seen in the trade and whos to say that legal paperwork cant be rewritten to cover the illegals from being exported


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## tim13

Ed, I feel almost certain those frogs are not living solely off of whatever native feeders make it into the enclosure. It seems far more likely they are fed some easily cultured or found insect, maybe even wingless fruitflies for all we know. You are correct the fact that the tads are obligate egg feeders would be problematic for my previous post to be the case. However, someone mentioned earlier, there did not seem to be enough tad deposition sites in the photo, so maybe that's how they regulate how often their females are breeding. Not enough sites with that many females would likely lead to each female breeding only sporadically, but the sheer number of females in the enclosure guarantees a steady production of offspring. Just a thought. This would also alleviate the idea that the females become nutrient depleted from breeding if it is indeed the case.


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## Ed

Insufficient tadpole deposition sites, isn't going to decrease egg production.. instead it is going to increase competition for tadpole deposition sites. This increased competition is going to divert metabolic resources from tadpole care towards guarding deposition sites. 
Egg production is linked to nutritional status. If the frog has sufficient fat reserves and enviromental conditions are correct, egg production will continue at the same rate. 


If they are supplement feeding the enclosures how are they ensuring that the feeders are staying in the enclosure? Take an tank that has an open top and dump a bunch of fruit flies in it and see how many are still present in 15 minutes. 

Keep in mind that we only cracked the issues with hypovitaminosis of A in frogs in the last couple of years..


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## Philsuma

Tim, do you honestly believe that is a "Farm" / sustainable operation, fed by cultured insects ?


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## MonarchzMan

Philsuma said:


> Tim, do you honestly believe that is a "Farm" / sustainable operation, fed by cultured insects ?


Well, to be fair, something like Josh's Frogs could be considered a "farm" in this sense, and all of the frogs they produce are completely sustained by cultured insects. I agree with you that it's probably unlikely that it's done in tropical regions, but that said, I would say that it is possible.


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## JimO

I have a question. Has anyone ever seen juveniles for sale from a farming operation? All I have seen are adults.


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## JJuchems

I have received juvenile and adult mixed when purchasing from imports buy from the "farms." My last ad actually contained a juvenile.


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## Ed

If they were being farmed, we should expect the bulk of the exports to be juveniles or subadults and not adults as the longer they hold onto the frogs the lower the profit margin as the investment into the frogs' increases.


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## tim13

Ed said:


> If they were being farmed, we should expect the bulk of the exports to be juveniles or subadults and not adults as the longer they hold onto the frogs the lower the profit margin as the investment into the frogs' increases.


Do the adults fare better during the shipping process than juveniles do?


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## MonarchzMan

It's possible that adults fare better, but keep in mind that adult size for pumilio will be reached between 1 and 2 years. Look at folks here. Most folks will sell froglets that are 2-4 months OOTW; we don't real commonly see older animals for sale. It happens, but not nearly as commonly as froglets. An importer is going to want to get rid of them as soon as possible, and I just don't see them doing that.


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## JJuchems

MonarchzMan said:


> It's possible that adults fare better, but keep in mind that adult size for pumilio will be reached between 1 and 2 years. Look at folks here. Most folks will sell froglets that are 2-4 months OOTW; we don't real commonly see older animals for sale. It happens, but not nearly as commonly as froglets. An importer is going to want to get rid of them as soon as possible, and I just don't see them doing that.


This is a big part, there are cost and time to raising adults that I do not see the "farms" doing this as profit is a major part.


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## tim13

Philsuma said:


> Tim, do you honestly believe that is a "Farm" / sustainable operation, fed by cultured insects ?


Honestly Phil, I don't know. A lot you have spent time in these areas where the frogs are from, I have never been farther than a 10 hour drive from my town. I like to think a successfull "farm" can be done, I also like to think it IS being done by someone. All I can do is make deductions based on the experiences of others and photos I've seen. Based on that, they would HAVE to culture something to feed to all their frogs don't you think? Flies are pretty basic beings, they spend all their time looking for food/breeding sites, which most of the time are the same place. If they chucked some fruit or something into the corral with the frogs, why would the flies leave? Especially if they are cultureing the half crippled ones we all use. Maybe they set up ant colonies near their frog corrals and bait them in for the frogs. See, we all keep our frogs in glass cages out of necessity. Imagine the different husbandry practices available when you can just keep them outside in their own natural habitat. I bet none of us are really even aware of how they keep them corraled in those outdoor pens anyways, we've never had reason to be concerned with something like that because it's never really been an option for us before. As for that link with the photos of the frog farm, I'm sure that is just what they want everyone to see. Like everything else, I'm sure there are some things going on behind the scenes we wouldn't like.
Obviously these "farms" are out to turn a profit. You have to be. You can't be completely compassionate about the animals and still run a business based on them. Somewhere along the way you have to compromise. Such as animals per tank, spacing issues, such and such. No one in this hobby is completely compassionate about these animals anyway. Think about it. You keep frogs in a glass cage. For selfish reasons no doubt. I know I do keep them for selfish reasons. I like to look at them. I like to feed them. I like to build them little habitats. I like to listen to them call. If I were to be completely compassionate about these animals, then I wouldn't have any. Instead all the money I would spend on frogs and enclosures and such, I would donate to see their habitats preserved. But I don't. I donate some. A fraction of what I spend on just frogs to be honest. I bet I'm not the only one either. We look at these frogs at these farms and think they must be so unhappy because of the overcrowding issues we see. You can see stress in frogs if you are trained to look for it (so far I am not...), but you can't know if they are "happy". Think about it, maybe the frogs would say "Hell yea I'll trade freedom for a steady supply of half-crippled flies, and a likely mate!". But I have to wonder, why go through all the pretenses of being a "farm", all the red tape, setup costs, hiring workers, setting up enclosures, feeding (presumably), websites, photos, etc etc, if you are just going to go catch some frogs and sell them. It would be easier to just catch some frogs and sell them!


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## JJuchems

I do not believe these "farms" are producing 100% of what they are exporting. An extremely small portion are probably produced on site. I brought this to the attention of JP maybe two weeks ago. I found an interesting article (which I can not find now) that all (imported) O. pumilio in the US are field collected in Boca area. Like I said, I have researched frog farms for some time. I really do not see them as economically sound, as we cannot support them here in the states for the food industry. 

Here is a good read on commercial frog farming for food, here are species producing 100's of eggs with little productions bringing profit. 
http://mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/Documents/18514.pdf
http://cnre.vt.edu/extension/fiw/fisheries/fishfarming/frogs.pdf


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## Woodsman

My personal hope is that one day we will stop arguing over the existence of wild-collected frogs in our hobby, recognise the many ethical and practical reasons why these frogs should not be a part of the hobby, and work toward closing imports from developing countries that have demonstrated that they have no interest in protecting their indigenous flora and fauna.

Richard.


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## MonarchzMan

tim13 said:


> If they chucked some fruit or something into the corral with the frogs, why would the flies leave?


When I was in Panama, so folks kept pumilio for experiments and this was how they fed them. They didn't even culture flies, just tossed in some fruit which attracted plenty of ants and flies.


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## Dendrobatid

Woodsman said:


> My personal hope is that one day we will stop arguing over the existence of wild-collected frogs in our hobby, recognise the many ethical and practical reasons why these frogs should not be a part of the hobby, and work toward closing imports from developing countries that have demonstrated that they have no interest in protecting their indigenous flora and fauna.
> 
> Richard.


Richard,
I couldn't agree more! Great point.

Thanks,

Jim


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## ESweet

Woodsman said:


> My personal hope is that one day we will stop arguing over the existence of wild-collected frogs in our hobby, recognise the many ethical and practical reasons why these frogs should not be a part of the hobby, and work toward closing imports from developing countries that have demonstrated that they have no interest in protecting their indigenous flora and fauna.
> 
> Richard.


Amen!
I would go so far as to encourage people not to buy anything at all [even cb frogs/supplies] from importers of frogs [Aside from UE, who does it the right way].

On a side note, I've been to a brom farm in Costa Rica [Phil has been there too] and I'd estimate the density at 200+ frogs per 10m x 10m, though I've never ran a plot there (Maybe next year?). As such, I think it is possible for a legitimate frog-farm to be established, however, I'm with Phil in the belief that none exist and I won't budge on that until my own two eyes see one.


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## MonarchzMan

ESweet said:


> On a side note, I've been to a brom farm in Costa Rica [Phil has been there too] and I'd estimate the density at 200+ frogs per 10m x 10m, though I've never ran a plot there (Maybe next year?). As such, I think it is possible for a legitimate frog-farm to be established, however, I'm with Phil in the belief that none exist and I won't budge on that until my own two eyes see one.


To be honest, I would have thought the same thing with the Pastores population, but doing the actual density estimates sobered me up, as it were. I've often described Pastores as a population you have to be careful where you step because there are so many frogs, and I still think that's true. But when you actually start looking at distributions and numbers, the estimates go down.


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## ESweet

MonarchzMan said:


> To be honest, I would have thought the same thing with the Pastores population, but doing the actual density estimates sobered me up, as it were. I've often described Pastores as a population you have to be careful where you step because there are so many frogs, and I still think that's true. But when you actually start looking at distributions and numbers, the estimates go down.


I'll have to measure next time in in the area. I know how we tend to glorify these memories in our minds =D. It is definitely higher dens than pastores though, and I was surprised you only have Pastores at 13! This brom farm is very unnatural habitat as well.


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## MonarchzMan

What tends to happen, at least with Pastores, and likely with other populations, is that they tend to congregate around resources (for example, we found 30 frogs around one palm tree on a transect, but when you look at it across a whole area, that just averages out to 13 per 100 square meters). So it can look like the population is far more dense than it actually is since resources are not evenly or densely distributed through the landscape.


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## Ed

ESweet said:


> Amen!
> I would go so far as to encourage people not to buy anything at all [even cb frogs/supplies] from importers of frogs [Aside from UE, who does it the right way.



The collection and import of wc frogs wouldn't be as big a deal if there were sustainable harvest practices going on in the relevent countries. There are inherent problems with taking a protectionism stance in that unless there are measures taken to preseve the relevent ecosystems, boycotts do little or no good. They also tend to be unpopular with the locals, and if large amounts of effort aren't put into the preservation programs, poaching and conversion to cropland tend to destroy the ecosystems. Boycotts and other protectionism practices work best if the locals are vested in the protection programs, otherwise sustainable harvest practices are the best method for ecosystem protection. 




ESweet said:


> On a side note, I've been to a brom farm in Costa Rica [Phil has been there too] and I'd estimate the density at 200+ frogs per 10m x 10m, though I've never ran a plot there (Maybe next year?). As such, I think it is possible for a legitimate frog-farm to be established, however, I'm with Phil in the belief that none exist and I won't budge on that until my own two eyes see one.


There is a picture in Lotter's book that also shows a very high density population. 

Ed


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