# Azureus with a problem (R.I.P)



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Ok so one of my azureus froglets wasn't gaining as much weight as his tank buddy. His tank buddy got huge so i seperated them incase either a) the larger frog was stressing him out or b) the larger frog was getting all the food.

Things seemed fine excpet the moved Azureus was still not growing, but seemed very healthy and active (and still is active but not growing).

I decided tonight to watch him carefully while he ate dinner.

The problem is i think.. is because his tongue is too big. Its very dark blue/black and looks like an apple on a piece of string. It is so swollen at the end he can hardly get it in or out of his mouth so instead he eats by using his jaws.



















http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/12186/Sick_frog.bmp

So i got some photo's. They don't show his tongue but he is sitting like this a lot. 

Anybody have an idea of cause or remedy? I have heard that a lack of calcium and vit a can cause problems with the tongue however he eats a least once a day sometimes twice, he obviously eats enough to stay alive without getting thin and the fly's are dusted with calcium every other meal. (calcium one day vits the next).

All ideas (apart from euthanasia) gratefully accepted.

Steve

Ok so if you follow the link below the last photo (i think 'cos the file is a bitmap it won't show on here) you can see the size of his tongue, there is no obstruction in his mouth, any ideas?

Thanks again for looking.

Edit: Moved to this forum - Bill


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Corey, Ed, Mike, Solly, Kyle, chuck, david and everybody else?????

Has nobody got any ideas???

Steve


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Bump for photo's added

Steve


----------



## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

His tongue isnt to big, I may be off on this but I believe that is a form of a respritory problem, which means he is having trouble breathing. If some one could help me with this that would be grand, I may be way off though.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

it may be the photo but is there something stuck in the roof of his mouth?


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'm no nutritionist, but aren't the symptoms of too much calcium similar to not enough calcium? How often are you dusting, what with, are you using UV, does your dust include D3...?

I wish I could help you more Steve, but this is one area of darts I know almost nothing about, I've been pretty lucky and have had healthy frogs. (knock on wood)


----------



## xfrogx (Jul 5, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> it may be the photo but is there something stuck in the roof of his mouth?


Now that you say that, it does look like there is something in there. But your right it may be the photo.


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Hey everyone,

When i put the photo on here i thought it looked like someting in there too so i'm going to take a look when i have all my kids to bed.

He does have a problem with his tongue though, xfrogx if i hadn't have seen his tongue i would have said respitory too but he has this large swelling on the end of his tongue (and now we mention it, could it be irritation from something stuck in his throat?).

Each time he strikes for food this lump just falls out of his mouth, he then struggles to get it back in.. almost like a cat coughing with a fur ball.

I thought maybe skin shedding but this as gone on a bit long for that now.

As for supplements, after reading Ed's over calcium thread i switched to alternating calcium and vits each day, and my calcium does have D3 in it. (I also use UV too just to make sure the calcium is disseminated accordingly).

So i am at a loss, but i will update later when i check his mouth/throat. I hear a cedit card is good for this.

Poor thing.. Do you take Visa little froggy!! Swipe here for cash back!!

Well thanks everyone for replying and well see what his throat is like later.

Regards

Steve


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

good luck and try and use a pen flashlight first. he may have his mouth open eough that you could see in there if he`s in a clear type deli cup and white paper towel. it`ll reflect the light, make it brite and give good contrast.


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Thanks Aron, 

well he is active enough and didn't want to play in the deli cup so i had to hold him and use a blockbuster card (about half the thickness of a credit card).

If you follow the link on my original thread below the two photo's you can see how swollen it is. 

Steve


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

sorry. i didnt mean for you to have to restrain him like that.
considering you have other froglets that arent like this i would discount vit or min uptake playing a part. i could be completely off base as i have no background in vit and min deficiencies. just seems that you would see it in more animals if that was the case.
id say it got injured somehow whether a torn muscle? or maybe a slight infection? possibly a deformity that got worse as he grew? seems the only thing you can really do is treat w/ an antibiotic, maybe metronidazole and hope it is swollen from infection. i really have no other clue as to what you could do if its not a swollen infection of some sort. the only things i could think that would make it swollen is infection or torn or sprained muscle. again, not my area though.


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Well thats a start, the rest of his mouth looks fine (saying that, i have only looked inside one other frogs mouth before.. so i hardly count as a subject matter expert), however, it did look like a mouth ulcer on a human would, full of fluid so infection it maybe.

Where would i get metronidazole from? For some reason, in nevada they won't give out anything from vets over the counter, one vet hadn't even heard of calcium gluconate when in inquired.

Anyway, thanks again

Steve


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

dr frye


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I doubt that this is a result of a deficiency and it sounds like the frog may need surgery (so you will have to get someone to look at the frog). The reason I am saying this is that issues like this can be caused by something encysted in the muscle of the tongue or caught in the tissues (like a splinter or other irritant) which will have to be removed before antibiotic treatment can resolve any infection. 
Unless the lesion is caused by anaerobic bacteria then metronidazole will not be of any use and you will need a different antibiotic. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

thanks ed. i was worried i wasnt giving 100% correct info but the lack of other suggestions made me jump in. much better recommendation.


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Here is the latest, Little blue is still going strong.

Lately my work hours have been hectic but today i got some off time during business hours and managed to get to a vet that did walk ins and did exotic's.

Without putting the frog in an anesthesia chamber they couldn't get it under the microscope to check for anything like a splinter. The swelling however, which i hadn't noticed was also in it's throat and the roof of it's mouth and is now thought not to be a splinter etc.

The frog is now on a 10 day course of Baytril antibiotics, watered down with saline and administered at 0.02 mg topically in the hope it will clear the infection and bring down the swelling.

I will update in ten days for future reference incase anybody else gets the same thing.

Regards

Steve


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Ok, so a house move, 6 days into little blues course of antibiotics caused me to stop his treatment. He is now in his own quaranteen tank but has stopped eating. His antibiotics started again today to complete the full course but he is now looking very skinny. 

His tongue seemed to improve but now it is almost as though he feels it is better and tries to zap the flies as a normal frog would. unfortunatly he keeps missing, falling short and this is why i think he is getting skinnier.

I also gave him a small dose of calcium gluconate to see if that would perk him up too.

It may be i have to start force feeding him soon. Not something i really want to do, but i have my x-ray film handy (the thinnest thing i can think of to open his mouth with).

My Vet suggested kitten food? anybody heard of this before? otherwise she said mushed up FF or the innards of super meal worms.

I will update again soon.

Steve


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is a good product called feline Clinicare which a predigested liquid food for nutritonally challenged cats that works very well for tube feeding amphibians. 

Ed


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Thanks Ed, thats the one she mentioned.

Off hand do you know what it contains? 

Regards

Steve


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Steve

It has a pretty long list of ingredients. 
But the breakdown on a kcal basis is 30% protien, fat 45%, 25% carbohydrates and 1.0 kcal/ml. 

If you use it I would suggest doling it out into icecube trays and only using a cube as needed as it goes bad fast once opened if you don't freeze it. 

Ed


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Thats great Ed,

I will definatley invest in some, and like you say i will freeze it into ice cube portions.

Is this common knowledge on the board (feline clinicare) as i do a lot of browsing here and i had never heard of this before.

If so it may be worth adding it to a sticky on general health for everyone to read as i'm sure most of us have to force feed at some point or another.

Regards

Steve


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I know I have recommended it several times... 

Ed


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Thanks for everythin Ed.

Snip 'I would suggest calcium gluconate solution, small graduated cylinder for dilutions or a large 50-100 cc syringe for dilutions, feline clinicare, insulin syringe and a catheter for tube feeding.' endsnip

I guess i'm guilty of seeing but not ingesting, it was there all along. (but you knew that already).

Regards

Steve


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

More news.

Today, i administered his antibiotics (topically) and he decided to have a siezure on me. his mouth was gaping open. At first i thought he had died, but there was a heart beat. I have heard of siezures before but never experienced one.

As his mouth was wide open i took this as a good point to start force feeding. 

I mushed up around 20 ff's (no vits or calcium as i gave him calc gluc yesterday, and i don't want to overdose him in this fragile state).

I also cut the heads off two large crickets and fed him the mush from inside too. Wierd though, a cricket can still jump with no head, and its feelers can still twitch with no body.. wasn't expecting that bit!!

within ten mins he was back on his feet and had swallowed all the food i gave him. He also looked slightly fatter, though not much.

I also spoke to my vets today about getting feline clinicare. They have a similar product called AD? which they said would be better suited for a frog in his condition. I will be picking that up tommorow and feeding with a hypodermic with no needle fitted, just the tiny syrnge.

So he is still alive though barely. Fingers crossed for tommorow.

Regards

Steve


----------



## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Well it's a sad day. Little blue had another siezure this morning when i gave him his antibiotics.

Ten minutes later he was up and about fine again.

I left to go to the vets to get the feline clinicare and when i returned he had seized again and was lying upside down, eyes had clouded over and no sign of a heartbeat or movement. Oh how my timing sucks, if i had got the clinicare yesterday he may have made it.

I checked inside his mouth again and the lumps that were there previuosly had gone and were no more than little scars so the Baytril worked, his tongue still looked a little swollen but not as much as it was when this thread was started.

I have placed him in a damp paper towel in his quarantine tank, just in case but realistically i think it's all over for him.

RIP Little Blue.

Steve


----------

