# Hybrids



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

I know we can't out any member on DB. Is there anything else we can do to make people aware, especially people that are very new to the hobby, of poeple that are trying to pass hybrids as a real morph? 

I am quite new to the hobby and I am doing my very best to be a responsible keeper of these beautiful creatures. Seeing all the different available morphs was super confusing, especially when looking at tincs. They have so many different colorations that deciding whats a true morph and whats a hybrid can be quite daunting. In the last few months that I've been on here, I have seen a few threads started where people arent even sure of the morph of tinc they have. I bet it's super easy for someone to sell a hybrid to someone very new to this hobby especially an inpulse buyer.

I don't know if it's been ever tried on here, I am sure that it has, but on youtube I have seen a few posts where people offer their hybrids for sale. I just feel something needs to be done to have people be made aware.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Go to the Thunderdome section and start a thread without naming names. You CAN certainly list the Reptile show/ gathering or city that the frog came from / breeder lives in and the thread will "evolve" from there.

You can then answer questions from concerned responsible hobbyists that notice the thread via PM.

Good on ya, for doin' the right thing and speaking up. There IS also a chance that you may be mistaken, right? And even in that case....it's better to ask questions and inquire than.....not.

right?


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Go to the Thunderdome section and start a thread without naming names. You CAN certainly list the Reptile show/ gathering or city that the frog came from / breeder lives in and the thread will "evolve" from there.
> 
> You can then answer questions from concerned responsible hobbyists that notice the thread via PM.
> 
> ...



I thought about the thunderdome but it seems like not to many go on there as the main forums on here. At least it's something though.

What were you referring to that I might be mistaken about?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

alex111683 said:


> I thought about the thunderdome but it seems like not to many go on there as the main forums on here. At least it's something though.
> 
> What were you referring to that I might be mistaken about?


No...the Thunderdome feature is actually "pulling it's own weight". People go there and notice the threads and pass it on. It's much better than nothing. More people will see and hear about the thread than you think, IMO.

By mistake.....I mean, perhaps there IS a chance that it's not a hybrid? I'm just playing devils advocate here and that's Exactly why you should start the thread.

We need more info on this.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

The person actually says its a hybrid and mentions to a few that its accepted but just some look down on it.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

alex111683 said:


> The person actually says its a hybrid and mentions to a few that its accepted but just some look down on it.


 
Thunderdome.....start a thread......start of with a location and a brief intro such as:

"SoCal guy breeding and selling Hybrids" or some such....


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

alex111683 said:


> The person actually says its a hybrid and mentions to a few that its accepted but just some look down on it.


Thunderdome!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Two men enter, one man leaves...lol


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

rcteem said:


> thunderdome!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Two men enter, one man leaves...lol


looking for breeds
we can rely on
there`s gotta be something better out there
love and compassion
their day is coming
all else are vivaria built in the air
and i wonder when we are ever gonna change our selfish desires
living under the fear till no true representation of a frog remains

all the children say
we don`t need another hybrid
we don`t need to know the way home
all we want is life beyond
thunderdome


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

there once was a man from nantucket
was told about hybrids and said F__k it!
bred this and that
between DB chats
and his rep left him lickety split!

james


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I really like this thread and Phil is right. The thunderdome isn't for the faint of heart however.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Thunderdome.....start a thread......start of with a location and a brief intro such as:
> 
> "SoCal guy breeding and selling Hybrids" or some such....


The guy told me that he would post the videos here in the next couple days after I invited him to. I told him that if more than person sides with him I will apologize. So I might not have to post anything. Ill wait a couple days.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

If you can't trust the person you are buying your frogs from, then don't buy them. If you have reason to suspect that frogs are not what they are being sold as, shop elsewhere.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Post in the Thunderdome without naming names.

If you're looking to know where you can buy quality frogs I recommend searching the forum for mixing and hybrid threads and look for the people who stand out as being strongly and vocally opposed to hybridization. Send them a PM and they'll likely know of some good quality breeders (if they don't have what you're looking for themselves). Lots of us try to stay in touch so if you send someone who's opposed to hybrids a message they'll usually know _about_ where you should go.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Maybe I'm missing something but everything I have read in this thread states the guy is labeling and selling them as hybrids. He is not misleading anyone. Let's give him some credit for not labeling them as something other then what they are. I'd be afraid that if you start bashing him for being honest he will simply change his online name and start selling them as whatever they look like.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but everything I have read in this thread states the guy is labeling and selling them as hybrids. He is not misleading anyone. Let's give him some credit for not labeling them as something other then what they are. I'd be afraid that if you start bashing him for being honest he will simply change his online name and start selling them as whatever they look like.


I actually somewhat agree with you. Just for the record my post was directed at the other half of the OP when asked how can one know when one is purchasing purebred frogs.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but everything I have read in this thread states the guy is labeling and selling them as hybrids. He is not misleading anyone. Let's give him some credit for not labeling them as something other then what they are. I'd be afraid that if you start bashing him for being honest he will simply change his online name and start selling them as whatever they look like.


Your right, he is being honest but it doesn't make it right. It will just start to flood the hobby with hybrids. The purchaser might think its OK to do it themselves since it was done already. This practice would just be irresponsible. Especially for everyone else that is doing their part in keeping true bloodlines/morphs especially for the sake of their survival since they are being decimated in the wild. I also brought up the people that try to sell hybrids as something else too.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

alex111683 said:


> Your right, he is being honest but it doesn't make it right. It will just start to flood the hobby with hybrids. The purchaser might think its OK to do it themselves since it was done already. This practice would just be irresponsible. Especially for everyone else that is doing their part in keeping true bloodlines/morphs especially for the sake of their survival since they are being decimated in the wild. I also brought up the people that try to sell hybrids as something else too.


Tracked lineages through a program like TWI's ASN goes a long way to help with these concerns. 

Ed


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

Doesn't mean that the people who purchase the frogs from this guy aren't going to pawn them off as a true breed........

-Mike-



Jellyman said:


> Maybe I'm missing something but everything I have read in this thread states the guy is labeling and selling them as hybrids. He is not misleading anyone. Let's give him some credit for not labeling them as something other then what they are. I'd be afraid that if you start bashing him for being honest he will simply change his online name and start selling them as whatever they look like.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Mikembo said:


> Doesn't mean that the people who purchase the frogs from this guy aren't going to pawn them off as a true breed........
> 
> -Mike-


It also does not mean that everyone currently breeding the generic black/green auratus have not caught on to the fact that if they identify them as a praticular local that they can charge more for them. Why is this always the argument for hybrids when it is more often the case with what is percieved as local specific frogs. There will always be individuals that are dishonest on both sides. Why not promote honesty and the ability to list all frogs including hybrids in the TWI ASN data base so they can be tracked as well?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You know what....I see nothing wrong with PMing the names of the Hybrid producers to all on the boards. Or better yet start an anti hybridization blog and name names if you cant post them up. But make sure your right about the names. I think people should be made aware of the names of individuals doing this. Its no different than asking who is breeding the fantasy frogs or the other herp hybrids and we all have the right to know who and the right to avoid them. Ive also called people out about producing hybrids and told them to post it up here and see how popular they become. Im still waiting on them to do so.

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

What's wrong with naming names, if the individual is honest with what he's selling, why would he care if you post his name?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Figured I would throw in one more thing. There is nowhere near as big of an issue in this hobby with the few hybridizers as there are with those that have taken to selective breeding. That is the real problem we need to watch.

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

We could argue all day about other issues but the fact is eventually these hybrids will get out to the hobby and be sold as a true breed, accidentally or purposely, with or without TWI/ASN tracked hybrids.

-Mike-



Jellyman said:


> It also does not mean that everyone currently breeding the generic black/green auratus have not caught on to the fact that if they identify them as a praticular local that they can charge more for them. Why is this always the argument for hybrids when it is more often the case with what is percieved as local specific frogs. There will always be individuals that are dishonest on both sides. Why not promote honesty and the ability to list all frogs including hybrids in the TWI ASN data base so they can be tracked as well?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

poison beauties said:


> You know what....I see nothing wrong with PMing the names of the Hybrid producers to all on the boards. Or better yet start an anti hybridization blog and name names if you cant post them up. But make sure your right about the names. I think people should be made aware of the names of individuals doing this. Its no different than asking who is breeding the fantasy frogs or the other herp hybrids and we all have the right to know who and the right to avoid them. Ive also called people out about producing hybrids and told them to post it up here and see how popular they become. Im still waiting on them to do so.
> 
> Michael
> 
> ...


I really like this idea.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Mikembo said:


> We could argue all day about other issues but the fact is eventually these hybrids will get out to the hobby and be sold as a true breed, accidentally or purposely, with or without TWI/ASN tracked hybrids.
> 
> -Mike-


Yes, and hybrids getting out someday are is so much more important than whats happening today. Anyone whos beating the no hybrid horse but cant at least document the history of their own frogs, or even better has them all in asn should take a look at themselves.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

bussardnr said:


> Yes, and hybrids getting out someday are is so much more important than whats happening today. Anyone whos beating the no hybrid horse but cant at least document the history of their own frogs, or even better has them all in asn should take a look at themselves.


I dont need ASN to know where my frogs are from, what line they are or what locale and what import year they arrived. Ive also traced any offspring Ive bought back to the same.
The problem is not hobbyists are not registering frogs, the problem is they are buying them blindly asking for none of the needed info.

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

bussardnr said:


> Yes, and hybrids getting out someday are is so much more important than whats happening today. Anyone whos beating the no hybrid horse but cant at least document the history of their own frogs, or even better has them all in asn should take a look at themselves.


Why, so they have a nice list of who has what to turn over if the ban goes through? I was a huge supporter of TWI early on, but now I have to wonder if they will be willing to stand up and protect their members after the weak "position statement" on the USFW proposal.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mikembo said:


> We could argue all day about other issues but the fact is eventually these hybrids will get out to the hobby and be sold as a true breed, accidentally or purposely, with or without TWI/ASN tracked hybrids.
> 
> -Mike-


A
With the difference that a tracked frog will have a registered relatedness as well as to what other frogs to which it is related. 
Untracked frogs will not. 

It doesn't take an unethical person to create hybrids/intergrades/crossbreds.. look at all of the threads over the years that have been posted on identifying frogs to species/morph/locality based on sight alone... particularly in those morphs where variation is known to occur. Those pairings have been accepted over the years as an acceptable source of froglets and could very well have been the result of well intended people (both on the part of those who identified the frogs as *xyz* as those who then bred and sold them). 

Do you go back through the threads and crucify them as well? I'm sure someone will attempt to construe this to mean that I am defending hybridization.. I am not.. I am pointing out the problems in the arguement above. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

So....supposedly the breeder is going to post a youtube viddy or a thread, right?

Did he yet? 

He *absolutely* gets the opportunity to discuss everything without bashing or aggression. Let's hope he steps up and hear where the frogs are going.......


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Why, so they have a nice list of who has what to turn over if the ban goes through? I was a huge supporter of TWI early on, but now I have to wonder if they will be willing to stand up and protect their members after the weak "position statement" on the USFW proposal.


If you are worried that the Federales are going to be looking for who has animals based on a so far hypothetical permit requirement to ship interstate couldn't they just search the members list here (or on the net)? Particularly given that it is fashionable for people to post lists of species in thier signature. Or issue warrents based on the members and thier discussions of the forums? You publicly posted what you have and work with in at least one open forum... Look at all of the people they could nab, doing interstate commerce in the MADS thread alone (even though, it is currently legal for interstate travel to occur..). 

That would net them a much larger portion of the hobby than in getting a subpoena for TWI records (for which they would have to have justification in any case..even though a simple ban on interstate shipping wouldn't give them justification for it). If you are going to be paranoid, at least be reasonable about it.. there is as much justification for that as there is for Amazon women in the moon to be tracking your frog collection. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> I dont need ASN to know where my frogs are from, what line they are or what locale and what import year they arrived. Ive also traced any offspring Ive bought back to the same.
> The problem is not hobbyists are not registering frogs, the problem is they are buying them blindly asking for none of the needed info.
> 
> Michael
> ...


 
How about the current status of a population in the hobby.. is it declining, stable or increasing....? How many species can you say for sure thier status.. how about predicting trends on thier status? How many people got out of the frogs you keep versus those who got into them? 

Ed


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Tony said:


> I was a huge supporter of TWI early on, but now I have to wonder if they will be willing to stand up and protect their members after the weak "position statement" on the USFW proposal.


Tony, I think this perhaps reveals a misunderstanding of TWI's mission and purpose: it is an organization that was formed to protect wild amphibian populations. It is not (as many perhaps want it to be) a hobby/trade protection group, but was rather formed to create a grassroots vehicle through which average people (including hobbyists) could participate in amphibian conservation instead of letting all of the "big guys" handle it. The mission statement, from day one, has always stated that the organization is about the conservation of wild amphibian populations and every decision and statement has, is, and always will be based upon that. As the position statement says, we believe hobbyists "represent a strong advocacy for wild amphibians and represent a technical and educational resource for their effective conservation," and so we don't disregard the hobby, either. We stand with a foot in the captive hobby realm, as well as one in the conservation realm. Very few other organizations (if any) attempt to do so.

If you feel the above mentioned position statement was weak, perhaps that has less to do with the actual substance of the statement and more about your own personal preference/bias. It was drafted by a committee comprised of a mix of hobbyists, scientists and conservationists in order to take a reasonable and level-headed approach to the topic, as well as to take into consideration its various facets and implications. 

With this issue far too many people are taking a far too reactionary stance/position and creating a deeply polarized environment that isn't going to help create or implement the practical and effective solutions that may be needed. We feel that our statement actually looks at the issue and its various aspects for what it is, rather than fueling a misled and/or mis-informed battlecry.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> So....supposedly the breeder is going to post a youtube viddy or a thread, right?
> 
> Did he yet?
> 
> He *absolutely* gets the opportunity to discuss everything without bashing or aggression. Let's hope he steps up and hear where the frogs are going.......


I invited him to and he said he would. I tried to look for the video today and some of the comments about selling are gone. I think he was full of BS or just took my advice. Ill message him and see what he says.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> How about the current status of a population in the hobby.. is it declining, stable or increasing....? How many species can you say for sure thier status.. how about predicting trends on thier status? How many people got out of the frogs you keep versus those who got into them?
> 
> Ed


True Ed but the issue is people can register frogs all day long but it doesn't tell us where they cam from. As for your points I do not think a registry will work as a hobby wide setup until its completely separated from a group or any other organization as people tend to base their thoughts on the group over the setup. I can tell you that its easier right now in the hobby to see what is in or out by checking the classifieds and want ads. There are plenty of people that come to me to find frogs so I have a decent idea of what is being over bred, what the trends are and even what is endanger of falling out of the hobby. 
The problem with Registry's is that people want their info kept private so they do the hobby no good as a whole to see your points for themselves. I think something like this is due but I think it needs to be a private setup unrelated to any other hobby related groups or boards and it needs to be a registry that can support and track all amphibians. As of now the boards tell the average hobbyists what is going on as far as captive populations go. I do think a few things could be done to advance this though.

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> I can tell you that its easier right now in the hobby to see what is in or out by checking the classifieds and want ads. There are plenty of people that come to me to find frogs so I have a decent idea of what is being over bred, what the trends are and even what is endanger of falling out of the hobby. ...As of now the boards tell the average hobbyists what is going on as far as captive populations go.


This is only true in part: it only tells you what is in/out amongst those in the hobby who use or frequent DB or similar forums and their classifieds, which is only a part of the hobby at large. I agree it gives a fairly decent picture, but it only gives part of the picture. For instance, a few people may get a new morph and then all sorts of threads and images are posted here...and has the tendency to give the impression to some that this new species/morph/frog must be doing well and becoming "established" in the hobby, much more so than it actually is. So even this medium can be somewhat deceiving.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> If you feel the above mentioned position statement was weak, perhaps that has less to do with the actual substance of the statement and more about your own personal preference/bias. It was drafted by a committee comprised of a mix of hobbyists, scientists and conservationists in order to take a reasonable and level-headed approach to the topic, as well as to take into consideration its various facets and implications.
> 
> With this issue far too many people are taking a far too reactionary stance/position and creating a deeply polarized environment that isn't going to help create or implement the practical and effective solutions that may be needed. We feel that our statement actually looks at the issue and its various aspects for what it is, rather than fueling a misled and/or mis-informed battlecry.


There was no substance to the statement, that is my point. It is a shining example of fence-sitting, standing ready to see what way things go and jump onboard with the winning team. TWI was sold as an organization for hobbyists, by hobbyists, and is now drifting dangerously close to the USFW/Defenders of Wildlife/animal rights agenda. 

There is no negotiating with them, either you take a stand or you compromise and then watch them take it all away once they have their foot in the door. A similar thing happened recently here in Oregon, last year a law was passed requiring permits to keep crocodilians, wild cats and a few other "exotic animals". Just about anybody would look at such a proposal and think "That is a good idea, these animals can be dangerous if kept improperly and there should be some system to make sure they are in knowledgeable hands." Seems reasonable enough, right? Now the ODFW has announced that such permits will no longer be granted. They took what seemed on the surface to be a reasonable proposal and turned it into a backdoor ban. See any parallels to the current situation with amphibians, or constrictor snakes? I sure do.

I will not support an organization that stands ready to sell me out, I'll save it for organizations like USARK and PIJAC who have the backbone to stand up for us.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> True Ed but the issue is people can register frogs all day long but it doesn't tell us where they cam from. As for your points I do not think a registry will work as a hobby wide setup until its completely separated from a group or any other organization as people tend to base their thoughts on the group over the setup. I can tell you that its easier right now in the hobby to see what is in or out by checking the classifieds and want ads. There are plenty of people that come to me to find frogs so I have a decent idea of what is being over bred, what the trends are and even what is endanger of falling out of the hobby.
> The problem with Registry's is that people want their info kept private so they do the hobby no good as a whole to see your points for themselves. I think something like this is due but I think it needs to be a private setup unrelated to any other hobby related groups or boards and it needs to be a registry that can support and track all amphibians. As of now the boards tell the average hobbyists what is going on as far as captive populations go. I do think a few things could be done to advance this though.
> 
> Michael
> ...


Actually it can tell people where the frogs came from.. The adults are registered.. offspring from those adults will have thier own number which is linked back to the adults.. and so forth. Unless you are concerned that people are just going to make up things when they register thier frogs. In that case, it isn't any better than it currently is except that where the frogs came from could be tracked (as well as all offspring from those frogs that are registered ) if something wonky occurs down the line. 

As for privacy concerns, ASN does not share the names unless the person okays it. A search of the database here ISIS :: Find Animals would simply show that those frogs are registered to TWI. In fact, it doesn't even show transfers between hobbyists on that form as it would be considered internal.. (registered the same way as moving an animal from one enclose to another (different code). If a person wished to know where their registered frogs came from (say they bought them second hand with the info) then the registar would check the registration form and if it said not to share contact the breeder to see if they wished to answer the question... 

ASN is set-up to handle more than just dart frogs or even anurans in general. All it takes is for a person to register thier amphibians and for someone to eventually write up a Taxon plan. It was started with dendrobatids as there seemed to be greater interest in conservation and preservation of the frogs in captivity in the hobby and it had to start somewhere. 

As for being a stand alone organization, I've seen several different attempts in the past to get a herp registry going (going back to the late 1980s) and one of the reasons they failed was that there wasn't a supporting organization.. and herp people didn't want to pay an extra fee just to register thier animals (they want other things like Leaf Litter..) 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> ASN is set-up to handle more than just dart frogs or even anurans in general. All it takes is for a person to register thier amphibians and for someone to eventually write up a Taxon plan. It was started with dendrobatids as there seemed to be greater interest in conservation and preservation of the frogs in captivity in the hobby and it had to start somewhere.


It may be set up that way but there seems to be little interest in branching out beyond Dendrobatids and Mantellas. I tried to lead the charge on _A. callidryas_ but received minimal interest on the TWI forum and no support, not one person was willing to join the TMP team or take 10 minutes to write up something simple like the "Habitat Observations" section.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> It may be set up that way but there seems to be little interest in branching out beyond Dendrobatids and Mantellas. I tried to lead the charge on _A. callidryas_ but received minimal interest on the TWI forum and no support, not one person was willing to join the TMP team or take 10 minutes to write up something simple like the "Habitat Observations" section.


 
How about asking for help on the treefrog forums? Or people here?.. 

If you thought it was that important write it up yourself? Not to be insulting, but you have been coming across like you wanted to find something to fault TWI for awhile.. and to be deliberately negative about it. 

All because the people on the TWI forum have thier own stuff happening (both in thier personal lives and with TWI) doesn't mean that is the only place to look for help.. and if you think about it.. it was started up with the dendrobatid group.. so you shouldn't be surprised if there was less interest among dendrobatid people... 
As for registering other frogs my hourglass are registered.

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> This is only true in part: it only tells you what is in/out amongst those in the hobby who use or frequent DB or similar forums and their classifieds, which is only a part of the hobby at large. I agree it gives a fairly decent picture, but it only gives part of the picture. For instance, a few people may get a new morph and then all sorts of threads and images are posted here...and has the tendency to give the impression to some that this new species/morph/frog must be doing well and becoming "established" in the hobby, much more so than it actually is. So even this medium can be somewhat deceiving.


I agree fads and threads make some things appear in greater or fewer numbers but a seasoned herper can usually spot that out. I do think a status bar for every frog post would be a great idea so each hobbyists reading a frog post knows how well each species is doing in the hobby. That may help.



Ed said:


> Actually it can tell people where the frogs came from.. The adults are registered.. offspring from those adults will have thier own number which is linked back to the adults.. and so forth. Unless you are concerned that people are just going to make up things when they register thier frogs. In that case, it isn't any better than it currently is except that where the frogs came from could be tracked (as well as all offspring from those frogs that are registered ) if something wonky occurs down the line.
> 
> As for privacy concerns, ASN does not share the names unless the person okays it. A search of the database here ISIS :: Find Animals would simply show that those frogs are registered to TWI. In fact, it doesn't even show transfers between hobbyists on that form as it would be considered internal.. (registered the same way as moving an animal from one enclose to another (different code). If a person wished to know where their registered frogs came from (say they bought them second hand with the info) then the registar would check the registration form and if it said not to share contact the breeder to see if they wished to answer the question...
> 
> ...


Yes I know all offspring can be tracked back with your setup but Im talking about the first ones put in. How many of them were properly tracked? How many of the ones entered now are done the same way as shows and the classifieds spread frogs all over the US in days. We have not done enough teaching yet to push this as far as it can go but I do think it is possible. 
I understand there have been other attempts and they failed but given the right plan anything is possible. We first need to push the teaching of getting the back ground info on your frogs. Otherwise everyone will be registering related offspring as unrelated. How many people actually have their own line of ST Lamasi? A lot more than really do I know that much. I know where and when they came in. People need to do a better job of tracking back their own frogs before they are registered,

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> How about asking for help on the treefrog forums? Or people here?..
> 
> All because the people on the TWI forum have thier own stuff happening (both in thier personal lives and with TWI) doesn't mean that is the only place to look for help.. and if you think about it.. it was started up with the dendrobatid group.. so you shouldn't be surprised if there was less interest among dendrobatid people...
> As for registering other frogs my hourglass are registered.
> ...


I did try a few people here before finally giving up. I think a big part of the reason why TWI has stagnated is the rejection of any attempt to branch out into frogs other than Dendrobatids, that alienates a large segment of the hobby. Why not just be honest and advertise it as a dart frog club if dart froggers are the only people whose input is valued?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> There was no substance to the statement, that is my point. It is a shining example of fence-sitting, standing ready to see what way things go and jump onboard with the winning team. TWI was sold as an organization for hobbyists, by hobbyists, and is now drifting dangerously close to the USFW/Defenders of Wildlife/animal rights agenda.
> 
> There is no negotiating with them, either you take a stand or you compromise and then watch them take it all away once they have their foot in the door. A similar thing happened recently here in Oregon, last year a law was passed requiring permits to keep crocodilians, wild cats and a few other "exotic animals". Just about anybody would look at such a proposal and think "That is a good idea, these animals can be dangerous if kept improperly and there should be some system to make sure they are in knowledgeable hands." Seems reasonable enough, right? Now the ODFW has announced that such permits will no longer be granted. They took what seemed on the surface to be a reasonable proposal and turned it into a backdoor ban. See any parallels to the current situation with amphibians, or constrictor snakes? I sure do.
> 
> I will not support an organization that stands ready to sell me out, I'll save it for organizations like USARK and PIJAC who have the backbone to stand up for us.


 
Tony,

have you bothered to consider that the data from the study cannot be used in anything other than a very generalistic way until the paper is going to be published? If the results of the paper are used before the review process for the paper occurs, it will probably be rejected which is a problem.
If you want to blame people for not having a better talking point, you should point the fingers at people who signed up for the test and then either never sent the swabs in to be tested or sent them in after months delaying the study for the same period, however since it sounds like you have made up your mind that TWI is bad, stop supporting TWI and move on..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I did try a few people here before finally giving up. I think a big part of the reason why TWI has stagnated is the rejection of any attempt to branch out into frogs other than Dendrobatids, that alienates a large segment of the hobby. Why not just be honest and advertise it as a dart frog club if dart froggers are the only people whose input is valued?


 
There has been no rejection of treefrogs or any other group except your decision that there was a rejection based on the lack of interest from the people you solicited... There is no extra value placed on the dart frog people.. 
Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Yes I know all offspring can be tracked back with your setup but Im talking about the first ones put in. How many of them were properly tracked? How many of the ones entered now are done the same way as shows and the classifieds spread frogs all over the US in days. We have not done enough teaching yet to push this as far as it can go but I do think it is possible.
> I understand there have been other attempts and they failed but given the right plan anything is possible. We first need to push the teaching of getting the back ground info on your frogs. Otherwise everyone will be registering related offspring as unrelated. How many people actually have their own line of ST Lamasi? A lot more than really do I know that much. I know where and when they came in. People need to do a better job of tracking back their own frogs before they are registered,
> 
> Michael
> ...


As more people enter thier frogs from where they got them, the registrar can use the software to start to put the relatedness together. That is also part of the answer the TMP can provide as to which frogs are related etc. 
So there may be several different recommendations within a group (generic registered animals (say bought off kingsnake) versus those from known lines... As noted in the literature (and I've cited this a lot) specifically http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf those lines would not in general be crossed unless there were severe signs of inbreeding (unless they can be shown to descend from one small group). 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Tony,
> 
> have you bothered to consider that the data from the study cannot be used in anything other than a very generalistic way until the paper is going to be published? If the results of the paper are used before the review process for the paper occurs, it will probably be rejected which is a problem.
> If you want to blame people for not having a better talking point, you should point the fingers at people who signed up for the test and then either never sent the swabs in to be tested or sent them in after months delaying the study for the same period, however since it sounds like you have made up your mind that TWI is bad, stop supporting TWI and move on..


I never said anything about a study, not quite sure where that came from. In any case I posted on several occasions to encourage people to return their kits, and put my money where my mouth was by swabbing my frogs and getting my kit back in the mail the same day that I received it (after several months of waiting for it to show up). 

Why are you so hostile to me having a less than favorable opinion of TWI? I am a member, at least until the next renewal drive, and I am not pleased with the direction the organization has gone. Am I only allowed to voice unthinking praise?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> As more people enter thier frogs from where they got them, the registrar can use the software to start to put the relatedness together. That is also part of the answer the TMP can provide as to which frogs are related etc.
> So there may be several different recommendations within a group (generic registered animals (say bought off kingsnake) versus those from known lines... As noted in the literature (and I've cited this a lot) specifically http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf those lines would not in general be crossed unless there were severe signs of inbreeding (unless they can be shown to descend from one small group).
> 
> Ed


I agree with the options the system gives you Ed but its still not tracking all the frogs. If all they do is put bought on KS this pretty much leaves hundreds and thousands of frogs entered this way as related even if they are WC. I think pushing people to do some of the work themselves before registering frogs is the right thing to do whether they like it or not it atleast shows a respect to the hobby by doing the extra work. Its not hard to ask the person your buying the frogs from where they came from. After that person is asked enough he may keep that info handy. As Im sure the Original breeder or importer will tire from being asked. Its a start,

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

Sorry to chime in this thread but is there not a better up to date tracking system than this ISIS :: Find Animals I mean this still has galacts listed as Dendrobates, Azureus as its own species and more that have been re-classified. Now before anyone goes jumping down my throat, I think that part of the problem is man hours/ help. It is to few and more is needed to have some tracking service to succeed. I will admit I havent offered to help and there for not pointing fingers, just simply asking a question.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> There has been no rejection of treefrogs or any other group except your decision that there was a rejection based on the lack of interest from the people you solicited... There is no extra value placed on the dart frog people..
> Ed


How do you figure? There are no TMPs for frogs outside of darts and mantellas, there was no interest in my TMP for _A. callidryas_ which is by far the most widely known and recognized frog among the general public, cited more times than I can count as the "poster child for rainforest conservation", and yet you claim there is no extra value placed on dart froggers or that there is no rejection of other frogs? Give me a break.

To address your edit, I did write up the TMP myself, posted several drafts on the TWI forum for review, and was only waiting on a few small things like the habitat observation from one of the many members who had traveled through Central America. The TMP has been sitting stagnant for months because of a small amount of info that I am unable to provide firsthand, info that could have been provided by about 10 minutes of effort by another member. Out of all the TWI members who could have helped make it happen none could spare 10 minutes of writing, yet you claim that there is a wide range of interest in the organization beyond darts? How do you define that as anything other than a rejection?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I never said anything about a study, not quite sure where that came from. In any case I posted on several occasions to encourage people to return their kits, and put my money where my mouth was by swabbing my frogs and getting my kit back in the mail the same day that I received it (after several months of waiting for it to show up).
> 
> Why are you so hostile to me having a less than favorable opinion of TWI? I am a member, at least until the next renewal drive, and I am not pleased with the direction the organization has gone. Am I only allowed to voice unthinking praise?


 
I have no problems with people voicing unhappiness unless they are deliberately misconstrueing facts.. for example your claims of rejection by TWI of anything other than dendrobatids or mantellas as a classic example... As a total personal opinion, I can think of other reasons there was little interest... 

Ed


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

That is the system AZA facilities across the country use to track animals. It does not matter if a frog is 'Dendrobates azureus' or 'Dendrobates tinctorius - azureus' - the animal is still tracked. If all animals in the hobby were tracked this way, we would have a hell of an easier time managing what exactly is in the hobby, in what numbers, and what species/morphs need to be focused on to insure that they remain in the hobby.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> As a total personal opinion, I can think of other reasons there was little interest...
> 
> Ed


Let's hear it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rcteem said:


> Sorry to chime in this thread but is there not a better up to date tracking system than this ISIS :: Find Animals I mean this still has galacts listed as Dendrobates, Azureus as its own species and more that have been re-classified. Now before anyone goes jumping down my throat, I think that part of the problem is man hours/ help. It is to few and more is needed to have some tracking service to succeed. I will admit I havent offered to help and there for not pointing fingers, just simply asking a question.


 
I believe that they are implementing the new system known as ZIMS this year. ZIMS ismuch more updated but they are rolling it out slowly to work out the kinks as they go, so until it is our turn we are stuck with ISIS. 
Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> How do you figure? There are no TMPs for frogs outside of darts and mantellas, there was no interest in my TMP for _A. callidryas_ which is by far the most widely known and recognized frog among the general public, cited more times than I can count as the "poster child for rainforest conservation", and yet you claim there is no extra value placed on dart froggers or that there is no rejection of other frogs? Give me a break.
> 
> To address your edit, I did write up the TMP myself, posted several drafts on the TWI forum for review, and was only waiting on a few small things like the habitat observation from one of the many members who had traveled through Central America. The TMP has been sitting stagnant for months because of a small amount of info that I am unable to provide firsthand, info that could have been provided by about 10 minutes of effort by another member. Out of all the TWI members who could have helped make it happen none could spare 10 minutes of writing, yet you claim that there is a wide range of interest in the organization beyond darts? How do you define that as anything other than a rejection?


 
So you have to wait for a habitat observation for a species that has an range that extends through what, most of Central America (or did they finally split them so it is only through between a third and half of Central America?).. you couldn't move it along without that tiny bit of information.. there are no references in the literature describing that habitat well enough that you couldn't cite it? 



Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> So you have to wait for a habitat observation for a species that has an range that extends through what, most of Central America (or did they finally split them so it is only through between a third and half of Central America?).. you couldn't move it along without that tiny bit of information.. there are no references in the literature describing that habitat well enough that you couldn't cite it?
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


Last time I checked it was supposed to be a personal observation from someone who traveled there, unless that has changed since I abandoned work on it.

And no, _A. callidryas_ has not been split up. The latest revision of the Phyllomedusinae placed _A. litodryas_ as a synonym of _A. spurelli_, and moved _Hylomantis_ and _Pachymedusa_ into _Agalychnis_, but no change to _A. callidryas_.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Last time I checked it was supposed to be a personal observation from someone who traveled there, unless that has changed since I abandoned work on it.
> 
> And no, _A. callidryas_ has not been split up. The latest revision of the Phyllomedusinae placed _A. litodryas_ as a synonym of _A. spurelli_, and moved _Hylomantis_ and _Pachymedusa_ into _Agalychnis_, but no change to _A. callidryas_.


 
That is not an absolute.. The TMP could have moved forward without it....


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> That is not an absolute.. The TMP could have moved forward without it....


So what are the other reasons you believe led to little interest?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> So what are the other reasons you believe led to little interest?


If you can't figure it out, telling you won't help. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> If you can't figure it out, telling you won't help.
> 
> Ed


Seriously? You are going to resort to veiled insults now?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Seriously? You are going to resort to veiled insults now?


 
If you are paranoid enough to misconstrue that to be a threat then the first part of this sentence should be one part of a big clue as to why people may not want to collaborate with you. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> If you are paranoid enough to misconstrue that to be a threat then the first part of this sentence should be one part of a big clue as to why people may not want to collaborate with you.
> 
> Ed


I'm not misconstruing anything as a threat. You said you have an opinion on why people weren't interested, and then that if I don't already know then telling me won't help. How else am I supposed to interpret that? Why not just say what you have to say and leave the games out of it?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I'm not misconstruing anything as a threat. You said you have an opinion on why people weren't interested, and then that if I don't already know then telling me won't help. How else am I supposed to interpret that? Why not just say what you have to say and leave the games out of it?


 
I did say what a large part of it was.. you have chosen to not understand it. Until you figure it out on your own, it won't do me any good to reiterate it. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> I did say what a large part of it was.. you have chosen to not understand it. Until you figure it out on your own, it won't do me any good to reiterate it.
> 
> Ed


If you haven't noticed subtlety and subtext are not my strong points. Is it really that difficult to lay it out here instead of going in ridiculous circles?


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## Vermfly (Jun 6, 2010)

Ed, as someone who just came into this thread it sounded like the reason you thought people wouldn't be interested in working with Tony on the TMP is that they don't like him. That seems a little childish when it prevents important things from being done. It seems pretty unprofessional that no one with experience in Central America can take 10-30 minutes to finish this TMP just because they don't like Tony.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vermfly said:


> Ed, as someone who just came into this thread it sounded like the reason you thought people wouldn't be interested in working with Tony on the TMP is that they don't like him. That seems a little childish when it prevents important things from being done. It seems pretty unprofessional that no one with experience in Central America can take 10-30 minutes to finish this TMP just because they don't like Tony.


 
There is no reason that the TMP could not have gone forward without that information. Supplying first hand information is ideal but unrealistic to expect it to be present for all (or even most) TMPS when they are created. TMPS also are not static, they get updated when the information becomes available. 
There is also no requirement that the observation has to come from a member of TWI, the first hand observation could have come from any source as long as it was referenced. 

I did not indicate it was because people did not like Tony. In my sole opinion, you can like a person and not like to work with them as an example. 

Ed


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

First off, Tony, you are misconstruing your personal opinions and short-sightedness and spouting them off as fact. You're bent out of shape that folks weren't jumping on board to help you with the TMP and somehow TWI becomes a bad guy? You don't get a few bits of information which, as Ed mentioned, could have been obtained elsewhere or temporarily left out, and the entire project needs to be scrapped? Welcome to the reality of a volunteer-run organization. People have real jobs, real lives, and real responsibilities that they are trying to manage while at the same time trying to steer an org that, in all reality, has done some pretty impressive things in the short amount of time it has been around...all without big budgets and private donors with inifinitely deep pockets to keep it all going. 

We have volunteers who spend spare hours in their evenings and days off to enter (by hand) peoples data and accessions into the ISIS database. We have volunteers dedicated to managing new members, tracking memberships, answering responses, editing articles, publishing a member magazine and newsletter, managing a website, packing chytrid test kits individually...and this is done by a relatively few number of individuals who remain committed. This doesn't at all take into consideration the countless number of e-mails and offers we receive from people to help with something, who are given something to help with, but are never heard from again. The slack is then picked up by someone who is usually already taking care of another responsibility. The people who continue are amazing and don't get near enough the credit they deserve.

You are right in saying that this organization was founded BY hobbyists...in part. The original committee was also comprised of conservationists, zookeepers, biologists and a number of other people from various backgrounds and amphibian-related professions and interests. This is how TWI got started and it's how it has always continued. It was never "just for hobbyists" and "for the protection of hobbyists and their private interests." It was "for" hobbyists in the sense that, as I said earlier, it was meant to be a venue through which they could get involved in amphibian conservation, either by more responsibly keeping and managing a captive population of frogs or by creating a frog pond in their backyard or the local schoolyard. Now, people have wanted to turn us into a hobby advocacy group or a protector of their special interests...but we have refused, always siding with the conservation of wild amphibian populations. On the other side, with those groups who would want to discount the private hobby altogether...we have refused, realizing that in some instances, the husbandry skills and experiences provided by hobbyists can in some ways help the conservation of amphibians species. We constantly find ourselves in a tension, serving as a bridge between the public and private sectors...but we are not "riding a fence" or being indecisize, let alone waiting to side with a "winner." One group wants all animals to stay in the wild, for no one to be able to keep any sort of animal in captivity. Another group, at its extreme, can think that it has a right to keep any animal it wants or desires. Neither of these sides is correct. We realize the benefits in spreading awareness about conservation through these lush glass boxes we keep and cultivate...but we also realize that it is a _privilege_ to do so, not a right. And if there is an aspect of that privilege that could pose a real and possible threat the wild populations of amphibians with which we are so interested in (such as the spread of chytrid to wild populations)...well, we need to seriously consider that and not just freak out and threaten to take our ball and go home. Neither side has it completely right, nor do they have it completely wrong. A rational discussion is needed to really determine the actual risk and what's at stake, and a bunch of mythinformation and conspiracy theories on forums isn't going to accomplish that. That's not being "limp-wristed" on the issue, it's being grown up and realistic about it. 

To the original poster: I apologize for being part of the hijack from your original post and question, but felt that the ideas being shared in this thread were being so chronically misconstrued and built on shaky personal opinion that something needed to be said.

All that being said, this is not a conversation that I find worthwhile arguing point-for-point...it's just not worth my time and energy. I have articles to read and edit and e-mail inquiries to answer before I hit the rack tonight.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> We have volunteers who spend spare hours in their evenings and days off to enter (by hand) peoples data and accessions into the ISIS database. We have volunteers dedicated to managing new members, tracking memberships, answering responses, editing articles, publishing a member magazine and newsletter, managing a website, packing chytrid test kits individually...and this is done by a relatively few number of individuals who remain committed. This doesn't at all take into consideration the countless number of e-mails and offers we receive from people to help with something, who are given something to help with, but are never heard from again. The slack is then picked up by someone who is usually already taking care of another responsibility. The people who continue are amazing and don't get near enough the credit they deserve.


How about people like myself and others who have volunteered to help out only to be told that the only contribution I can make is to accession my animals? For an organization that constantly complains about being short-handed it seems odd that people who wish to help would be given the finger.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have a few points to add. 

First, I am one of the people who originally came to this forum looking for an ID on color morph for my Tinc group. However, I knew from the start they were Suriname Cobalts. I was just not familiar with the locality morphological nuances between color-morphs. I thought it was all accomplished through selective breeding. After doing true reading and gaining an understanding of the value of isolating local morphs, etc, I have obviously learned of the importance for keeping genetic lines "clean". 

With that being said, I am still fearful that we are losing the fight to keep these lines clean. An example would be a local pet shop selling 4-5 different species housed together as froglets. An unexperienced person walking into that shop and buys on impulse, does not think to ask where the frogs came from, and what their "tracking number" is for tracking lineage, etc. Further more, does the pet shop REALLY care where they came from? Or is it the potential profit they stand to make that is the primary interest? When I inquired about the frog's origins, I was told "They are obtained through a wholesaler"... Pretty bad background info available if you ask me... I am sure whoever bought those froglets thought, by how they were kept in store, that it was fine to keep them in that way, and in very small quarters... These are the real risks facing the genetic lineage of darts in my opinion. As dart frogs become both more popular and more affordable, unskilled/unethical buyers will buy without any thought or care of where they came from... 

This is obviously just my opinion, and I really would like to know what people think about it. Thanks!

JBear


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## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

Coming from a conservation org. which is now national, multi million dollar on the books.


I do not see the purpose on hybrids, nor keeping of such.

I do see the purpose of a register.

I do not see the purpose of joining a conservation group if it is not actively protecting my rights as a hobbyist / breeder of these frogs.

The above would by done through lobbyists.




Heck even the FAA is launching a new registration program due to fraud.... 



Since ED brought up registration and cythrid testing, where is TWI's stance on testing and accurate registration?


If the importers are not on board, providing importation information and permitting..... Why buy possibly illegally obtained frogs? Why not provide the CITES paperwork?


Lets get something off the ground, anything more than a week delay in notification or registration is broken and needs fixing.

That's my 2 cents, as a active Land owner with over 2,000 acres as well as being a trained wildlife conservationist with years of infield experience. As well as being involved with a national conservation group that started as a grass roots effort and has changed laws state and federal "for the animals, and the hobbists".


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## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

Furthermore, after reading USFWS-Position | Tree Walkers International, you know that says to me and prospective members?


TWI/ASN has no money nor the resources to pay lobbiest to make changes nor money to provide an independent research project on the fungus and is relying on third party information and actions.


Which sounds like TWI/ASN is sitting on their hands.

The problem with the proposal is that animals can become infected once certified as fungus free, thus the hobby could be banned entirely.

It would also raise prices of frogs in the hobby and section off states entirely for a period of time thus reducing the availability of usually available frogs.

In time it could curve the gene pools or collapse them entirely.



Mind you that is a bit of an overstatement, but it is possible as well as likely given past trends in many previously non-regulated to regulated hobbys and industries including collectibles.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> How about people like myself and others who have volunteered to help out only to be told that the only contribution I can make is to accession my animals? For an organization that constantly complains about being short-handed it seems odd that people who wish to help would be given the finger.


How about finishing that TMP? 

One of the most important things (which is how I've phrased it) is to get frogs registered as that starts to give a baseline on which populations are doing well and which aren't but it isn't the only thing someone could do.. there are contributions to Leaf Litter, working on other TMPS.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> Furthermore, after reading USFWS-Position | Tree Walkers International, you know that says to me and prospective members?
> 
> 
> TWI/ASN has no money nor the resources to pay lobbiest to make changes nor money to provide an independent research project on the fungus and is relying on third party information and actions.
> ...


This statement indicates that you are not aware that 
1) TWI is currently reviewing for submission a preliminary test on the presence/absence of chytrid in the hobby. 
2) we are still a start up group, if you want to help us get millions in donations, so we can expand and speed up our projects as we could then move from all volunteer with 100% of income going back to the programs we are working on (and yes we have provided seed grants already as well as recieved them) and move to having some paid staff which would speed some of our functions up. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> How about finishing that TMP?


Not a chance. I am not lending TWI any more support until my concerns are addressed. 



Ed said:


> One of the most important things (which is how I've phrased it) is to get frogs registered as that starts to give a baseline on which populations are doing well and which aren't but it isn't the only thing someone could do.. there are contributions to Leaf Litter, working on other TMPS....


The last time I tried to register frogs I never received a reply, and the time before that it took several weeks, possibly over a month IIRC. Even if I was inclined to overlook my misgivings about the future of TWI, why waste my time writing up accession reports which may never be processed? This is doubly aggravating since I volunteered to assist with accessions and was told that the only contribution I could make is to register my frogs...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> 2) we are still a start up group, if you want to help us get millions in donations, so we can expand and speed up our projects as we could then move from all volunteer with 100% of income going back to the programs we are working on (and yes we have provided seed grants already as well as recieved them) and move to having some paid staff which would speed some of our functions up.


How is a 6.5 year old group a startup?


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## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

Did TWI not start in June of 2004?

Seed money is usually between $500 to $1000+.... Where has that money gone if there are no paid positions in TWI???



ED you did not respond to any of my other concerns.


How does TWI propose registering from Importers?

or Infection of amphibians after being certified as cythrid free?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> Coming from a conservation org. which is now national, multi million dollar on the books.
> 
> I do not see the purpose on hybrids, nor keeping of such.
> 
> ...


 
I think if you read through the thread.. you can see where my personal stand is on registration. 
As for my thoughts on chytrid testing, you can go all the way back into the frognet archives to gain my thoughts at the beginning and through this mess. 

If you feel that the only thing is the world is protecting your rights to own species that may no longer be present in the hobby in a few years; be my guest.. we have already seen extinctions in the hobby due to a lack of interest. (for example bumble be toads disappeared for a number of years (despite at least one captive breeding, and were unavailable until new imports came in.).. Or look at what happen to the Atelopus spumarius hoogmoedi that came into the hobby.. I think there are less than ten males left in the country (outside of preserved collections). In less than ten years.. 

TWI did not exclude people based on whether they were hobbyists or not.. we were inclusive and came up with the programs on which we are working. However it should be noted that most of the staff regardless of thier professional work are also hobbyists so this effectively is a hobbyist run/operated organization. So to be frank, it is being mainly done by hobbyists. 

That however is only one side of the and ignores all of the work done by Operation Frog Pond (OFP) or the publication of Leaf Litter.. 

Based on your last sentence you seen to feel that TWI is taking away from some other group (I'm going to guess USARKS).. it isn't... and as I noted above, it doesn't do a lot of good to have the right own something when it isn't available to own anymore. Personally I see the two things as complementary, and not in competition. 

If you concentrate only on one of the two, you could save the right to own something only to have it not available to be owned.. talk about closing the barn door after the horse has left. 

Ed


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## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

ED you are side skirting the questions I raise by giving material on some other website in reference.

I asked you a direct series of questions, as someone of TWI I am asking your stance as well as where TWI stands on the issue and concerns I raised.



Are you not willing to answer these questions?



Furthermore, all conservation was started by Hunters and Enthusiasts, by their efforts species and positions on captivity as well as breeding programs, sustainability studies as well as feasibility studies and testing is able to be done.


Your organisation sounds like it has no stance on importers, is this true?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Not a chance. I am not lending TWI any more support until my concerns are addressed. .


Then it seems you are at an impasse.... you chose to stop working on it, so now it won't be finshed by you. 





Tony said:


> The last time I tried to register frogs I never received a reply, and the time before that it took several weeks, possibly over a month IIRC. Even if I was inclined to overlook my misgivings about the future of TWI, why waste my time writing up accession reports which may never be processed? This is doubly aggravating since I volunteered to assist with accessions and was told that the only contribution I could make is to register my frogs.. .


Did you stop to think that a spam screen may have eaten it.. or that it may have been accidentally lost or that the sole volunteer was hung up on something. 

Are you aware that the number of people who can enter data under ISIS is restricted? Were you aware that it requires training? Did you see if the appropriate person was available to train you? Or did you just hang it out in space and when there wasn't an immediate answer jump to the conclusion that you were being ignored and that there wasn't any interest.... ? 

Obviously no matter what; you have decided to hate TWI etc.. as shown by your comments above. 
I'm not going to argue them point by point but I'm going to make one point..* Every body in TWI was told that it was important to register thier frogs. I was told it repeatedly as well. *You were the one who took that message and changed it.. just like your decision that something I wrote was a threat.. 

Ed


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Did you stop to think that a spam screen may have eaten it.. or that it may have been accidentally lost or that the sole volunteer was hung up on something.


That might have been plausible if previous accessions were handled in a timely manner.



Ed said:


> Or did you just hang it out in space and when there wasn't an immediate answer jump to the conclusion that you were being ignored and that there wasn't any interest.... ?


Are you deliberately misreading my words? There was no assumption, I was told that my volunteer efforts were not needed and that registering my frogs was all I could do. Once again, I WAS TOLD THAT MY OFFER TO VOLUNTEER WAS NOT WANTED. 



Ed said:


> [/B]You were the one who took that message and changed it.. just like your decision that something I wrote was a threat..


Twisting my words once again. I, and others, took your message to be a thinly veiled insult, YOU characterized it as a threat. Instead of evading the question for over a page, why can't you just come out and say that you don't like me, think I am an ass, don't think I am qualified to lead a TMP, or whatever it was you were hinting at? Why is it so hard to show a bit of backbone and say what you have to say instead of making vaguely snide remarks and then hiding from them?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> Did TWI not start in June of 2004?
> 
> Seed money is usually between $500 to $1000+.... Where has that money gone if there are no paid positions in TWI???
> 
> ...


Seed grants for OFP, production of informational pamphlets, setting up the website fees, paying for membeship in ISIS and ZIMs.. I don't have all of the expenses at my fingertips but it is all going back out. We are starting a granting process for amphibian conservation projects in and ex-situe.


We are not advocating mandatory membership. If a importer chooses to join and enter data, we would accept it. 

If a person wishes to include that they have been certified as chytrid free in thier notes, then we would include that informaton into the registry. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> That might have been plausible if previous accessions were handled in a timely manner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was actually blunt and trust me I have not yet been snide, and I have not twisted a single thing. My message was very clear. Your actions in this thread are exactly *why I personally* (speaking only for myself) would be very hesistent to work with you on any project. 

Ed


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> I was actually blunt and trust me I have not yet been snide, and I have not twisted a single thing. My message was very clear. Your actions in this thread are exactly *why I personally* (speaking only for myself) would be very hesistent to work with you on any project.
> 
> Ed


If this is blunt I would hate to see what you consider to be evasive...



Ed said:


> As a total personal opinion, I can think of other reasons there was little interest...





Tony said:


> Let's hear it.





Tony said:


> So what are the other reasons you believe led to little interest?





Ed said:


> If you can't figure it out, telling you won't help.
> 
> Ed





Tony said:


> Seriously? You are going to resort to veiled insults now?





Ed said:


> If you are paranoid enough to misconstrue that to be a threat then the first part of this sentence should be one part of a big clue as to why people may not want to collaborate with you.
> 
> Ed





Tony said:


> I'm not misconstruing anything as a threat. You said you have an opinion on why people weren't interested, and then that if I don't already know then telling me won't help. How else am I supposed to interpret that? Why not just say what you have to say and leave the games out of it?





Ed said:


> I did say what a large part of it was.. you have chosen to not understand it. Until you figure it out on your own, it won't do me any good to reiterate it.
> 
> Ed





Tony said:


> If you haven't noticed subtlety and subtext are not my strong points. Is it really that difficult to lay it out here instead of going in ridiculous circles?





Ed said:


> ...
> 
> I did not indicate it was because people did not like Tony. In my sole opinion, you can like a person and not like to work with them as an example.
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> ED you are side skirting the questions I raise by giving material on some other website in reference.
> 
> I asked you a direct series of questions, as someone of TWI I am asking your stance as well as where TWI stands on the issue and concerns I raised.
> Are you not willing to answer these questions?
> ...


 
Actually I wasn't skirting it. I was proving a long and consistent direction to my position on chytrid that has continued here today. It is a lot of thought and examples and a lot to retype. It is out there and it is public. 

I have no argument about where conservation started.. and I do know the history of it. And I support hunting.. my property is open to hunting each year to the hunters who are considerate enough to ask for permission before walking through my property. 

As for position on importers, I'm not sure what you are looking for as I thought I was answering your question. 
We are for sustainable amphibian husbandry and conservation whether that is in-situe or ex-situe. Sustainable needs to be defined for each individual species so we can't have a position for or against something until the data is there unless it can be shown that a take is showing negative trends or that something is meeting demand but this is complicated by a number of factors such as the continual desire for "rare species" (see for example PLoS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect_) . At this time, this is mainly amerliorated by the closing of countries to export allowing populations to recover, although there appears to be significant smuggling. 
The hobby currently does not have any data as to whether or not its current activities are sustainable which is part of the data that could be gathered by ASN. If populations are not sustainable, then alerts could be given to the hobby that a type of amphibian is declining (much like the rare breed registries work). 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> If this is blunt I would hate to see what you consider to be evasive...


 
Except the issues were pointed out repeatedly.. I'm not going to respond to you after this after this post Tony.. but you have consistently gone out on a limb with continual unfounded accusations.. such as those around the TMP being


> denied


,


> rejected


 and so forth that you have decided are personal slanders and slights against you and/or what you consider important. You are always willing to look for the insult or threat and oddly enough can find them when they aren't there. This is something that if you can't see for yourself, then my telling you it doesn't do any good (probably makes it worse) as you are just going to view it as a further personal attack. There are a lot of things people have to learn for themselves. 

Is that blunt enough or was I threatening you again? 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Why, so they have a nice list of who has what to turn over if the ban goes through? I was a huge supporter of TWI early on, but now I have to wonder if they will be willing to stand up and protect their members after the weak "position statement" on the USFW proposal.


 
I forgot to address this yesterday (even though it has been discussed several times, previously). 

There is a continued trend of fear mongering among certain parties (individuals and some groups (not just Tony although he is the convient example here) that people's animals would be taken away from them if the current petition before USF&W is accepted. Statements like the one Tony provided above are a classic indication of a total failure to understand the not only that specific petition, the Lacy Act as well as jurisdiction by USF&W. 
This is not true.. and is clearly outlined here http://www.anstaskforce.gov/Documents/Injurious_Wildlife_Fact_Sheet_2007.pdf 

Each individual state would have to regulate in-state ownership as it is outside the jurisdiction of the goverment... not the federal goverment. 

This has actually been discussed several times on this board with the above link to the information provided and then subsequently ignored.. 

Hopefully this will be my last comment on this topic and any misinformation in it. 

Ed


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Hey Tony, I don't know if you saw the story on the news just last week. Cops pulled over a car in Kansas City last week during a routine traffic stop. They found a 3 foot alligator in the car. Is that the face of your hobby? Is that the person you want representing you and your right to keep whatever animal you want? SO what's wrong with requiring a permit to keep crocodilians? Maybe some of the morons that want alligators, or crocs, or big cats, or other "exotic animals" would be dissauded from keeping them if they had to jump through a hoop to keep them.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Hey Tony, I don't know if you saw the story on the news just last week. Cops pulled over a car in Kansas City last week during a routine traffic stop. They found a 3 foot alligator in the car. Is that the face of your hobby? Is that the person you want representing you and your right to keep whatever animal you want? SO what's wrong with requiring a permit to keep crocodilians? Maybe some of the morons that want alligators, or crocs, or big cats, or other "exotic animals" would be dissauded from keeping them if they had to jump through a hoop to keep them.


 
I'm not sure permits would be the way to solve this either. There is an element out there that would have them regardless of the requirement for a permit or not.. and those people are often going to be the negative face of the hobby on the local news. Rarely is it the hobbyist who is doing the right thing that is portrayed.. You can't throw that one at Tony as that is a face of the hobby we all have to deal with.. 

I'm working with the local 4-H herpetology club... that is going to get stuff out somewhat as the kids have to do presentations and stuff on what they learned. 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> ...we are losing the fight to keep these lines clean. An example would be a local pet shop selling 4-5 different species housed together as froglets. An unexperienced person walking into that shop and buys on impulse, does not think to ask where the frogs came from, and what their "tracking number" is for tracking lineage, etc. Further more, does the pet shop REALLY care where they came from? Or is it the potential profit they stand to make that is the primary interest? When I inquired about the frog's origins, I was told "They are obtained through a wholesaler"... Pretty bad background info available if you ask me... I am sure whoever bought those froglets thought, by how they were kept in store, that it was fine to keep them in that way, and in very small quarters... These are the real risks facing the genetic lineage of darts in my opinion. *As dart frogs become both more popular and more affordable, unskilled/unethical buyers will buy without any thought or care of where they came from... *JBear


I was really hoping to hear some opinions on the role these pet shops may play in destroying genetic lines...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> I was really hoping to hear some opinions on the role these pet shops may play in destroying genetic lines...


 
They can only destroy the genetic lines as I noted above when people come onto a forum and post a picture asking for an identification (not that this also doesn't occur with imported frogs but that is a slightly seperate issue) and it is identified as this morph even though it and/or some of the similar morphs are extremely variable. One of the benefits to preventing this is the potential average longevity of the frogs in this sector of the hobby. Depending on the taxa we can look for between 8-12 years as a longevity for a number of smaller frogs and potentially over 2 decades for the larger taxa. 
If there are a number of hobbyists who have registered frogs from known lineages then those frogs are a buffer against those as you only need one or two breedings/decade to sustain the minimal needed population (between 50 and 100 frogs).. 

I would have to say the hobby itself is often it's own greatest enemy to the genetic diversity of the frogs as each popularity cycle results in severe losses to the numbers in the population and each down cycle represents lost genetic material.. so we can't hang all of the risk on the frogs in a pet store..when we as a hobby are often at fault... I think in the last 20 years the tricolor/anthyoni group has gone through at least one probably 2 and possibly three population/popularity swings.. I know terriblis have gone through at least one... 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> They can only destroy the genetic lines as I noted above when people come onto a forum and post a picture asking for an identification (not that this also doesn't occur with imported frogs but that is a slightly seperate issue) and it is identified as this morph even though it and/or some of the similar morphs are extremely variable. One of the benefits to preventing this is the potential average longevity of the frogs in this sector of the hobby. Depending on the taxa we can look for between 8-12 years as a longevity for a number of smaller frogs and potentially over 2 decades for the larger taxa.
> If there are a number of hobbyists who have registered frogs from known lineages then those frogs are a buffer against those as you only need one or two breedings/decade to sustain the minimal needed population (between 50 and 100 frogs)..
> 
> I would have to say the hobby itself is often it's own greatest enemy to the genetic diversity of the frogs as each popularity cycle results in severe losses to the numbers in the population and each down cycle represents lost genetic material.. so we can't hang all of the risk on the frogs in a pet store..when we as a hobby are often at fault... I think in the last 20 years the tricolor/anthyoni group has gone through at least one probably 2 and possibly three population/popularity swings.. I know terriblis have gone through at least one...
> ...


Ed- 

Thanks for the response! I wasn't implying that the consumer has no fault in the matter. What I was trying to illustrate is as the popularity of dart frogs rises, you will undoubtedly see more and more in pet shops. This, in turn, makes more and more frogs basically untrackable. I guess you are ultimately right though... In the end it is the consumer/hobbiest that fuels the want for pet shops to sell them, and it the responsibilty of the buyer to find out the info. Thanks for taking the time to answer the question!

JBear


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> Ed-
> 
> Thanks for the response! I wasn't implying that the consumer has no fault in the matter. What I was trying to illustrate is as the popularity of dart frogs rises, you will undoubtedly see more and more in pet shops. This, in turn, makes more and more frogs basically untrackable. I guess you are ultimately right though... In the end it is the consumer/hobbiest that fuels the want for pet shops to sell them, and it the responsibilty of the buyer to find out the info. Thanks for taking the time to answer the question!
> 
> JBear


 
One of the potential ways we could look to reduce the swings in popularity would be for more of the hobby to sell surplus to a pet store/vendor or even a wholesaler. Most of the serious hobby gets frogs from each other or a few select vendors while people outside of here often get frogs from other sources. Selling surplus animals out of the local hobby to the larger hobby could go a long way to stabilize the populations on the forum. 

Generic frogs do have a value, they just need to be managed as generic frogs.. 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Do you mean "generic" as in unclear origins? Or are you saying that certain species are generic? Wouldn't the dispersal of mass quantities to vendors/wholesalers/pet shops only do more to make more and more frogs in the hobby "generic"? That scenario almost begs for mishandling of info/lack of care to make sure that the frogs are properly tracked and accounted for. Who wants the hobby full of unreliable genetics and no moral way to breed them? Thanks again for taking the time Ed!

JBear


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Keep in mind what Ed said just a few posts above: a relatively few number of people, if keeping their animals properly and breeding them relatively infrequently, could provide a minimum number of frogs needed to maintain frogs of known lineage and provenance...so even if the vast majority of the hobby/market doesn't know or care to know anything about their frogs or their frogs histories, you still have a small group of people safeguarding a solid group of animals. This is the role a TMG (Taxon Management Group) in TWI's Amphibian Steward Network would play. Regardless of what may happen in the greater hobby, this would ensure that reserve groups of frogs are continually bred for diversity and with clear info regarding their lineage.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> Keep in mind what Ed said just a few posts above: a relatively few number of people, if keeping their animals properly and breeding them relatively infrequently, could provide a minimum number of frogs needed to maintain frogs of known lineage and provenance...so even if the vast majority of the hobby/market doesn't know or care to know anything about their frogs or their frogs histories, you still have a small group of people safeguarding a solid group of animals. This is the role a TMG (Taxon Management Group) in TWI's Amphibian Steward Network would play. Regardless of what may happen in the greater hobby, this would ensure that reserve groups of frogs are continually bred for diversity and with clear info regarding their lineage.


Ron and Ed-

I completely understand your logic there, and I see what you mean. I appreciate you taking the time to educate the community(me  ), and I also want to say that in no way were my posts an attempt to discredit TWI. I have an absolute respect for organizations that are able to work towards conservation and also contribute to the protection(of genetic data..) of captive populations. In particular, organizations that work through volunteers. Hat's off to you guys! Thank you both so much for taking the time to explain this to me.

JBear


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> Keep in mind what Ed said just a few posts above: a relatively few number of people, if keeping their animals properly and breeding them relatively infrequently, could provide a minimum number of frogs needed to maintain frogs of known lineage and provenance...so even if the vast majority of the hobby/market doesn't know or care to know anything about their frogs or their frogs histories, you still have a small group of people safeguarding a solid group of animals. This is the role a TMG (Taxon Management Group) in TWI's Amphibian Steward Network would play. Regardless of what may happen in the greater hobby, this would ensure that reserve groups of frogs are continually bred for diversity and with clear info regarding their lineage.


Its not just the TWI Amphibian Sterward Network striving for this. There are quite a few hobbyists that keep track of were everything they have came from and what its related to. Keeping a diversity running through the breeding hobby, zoos, and other institutions is great but it cant be done without the private hobby. There are too many frogs and some just dont wish to attach their name to any one group in order to be a part of this.

Michael


Dont Be A Hybridiot
-------------------


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Hey Tony, I don't know if you saw the story on the news just last week. Cops pulled over a car in Kansas City last week during a routine traffic stop. They found a 3 foot alligator in the car. Is that the face of your hobby? Is that the person you want representing you and your right to keep whatever animal you want? SO what's wrong with requiring a permit to keep crocodilians? Maybe some of the morons that want alligators, or crocs, or big cats, or other "exotic animals" would be dissauded from keeping them if they had to jump through a hoop to keep them.


If you bothered to actually read what I wrote you would see that I agreed with permits being reasonable, my disagreement was with the way Oregon has used it as a backdoor ban by denying ALL permits. That being said, how do you know the alligator wasn't being transported in a safe way and for a legitimate reason?


----------



## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

Ed said:


> I forgot to address this yesterday (even though it has been discussed several times, previously).
> 
> There is a continued trend of fear mongering among certain parties (individuals and some groups (not just Tony although he is the convient example here) that people's animals would be taken away from them if the current petition before USF&W is accepted. Statements like the one Tony provided above are a classic indication of a total failure to understand the not only that specific petition, the Lacy Act as well as jurisdiction by USF&W.
> This is not true.. and is clearly outlined here http://www.anstaskforce.gov/Documents/Injurious_Wildlife_Fact_Sheet_2007.pdf
> ...






ED if you believe that, you are not even seeing what has happened to other hobbies with regulatory action. They only need to find evidence on one released to the wild to consider it an invasive species that can survive on US soil.


Yes they can take your animals, yes they have the power, if concluded that animals were not legally obtained they could track shipments and confiscate animals.



Furthermore, but TWI not having any power nor election to work with importers to adopt standards....






What does TWI actually do? 



What has it accomplished in these last 4 years?




I'm looking ED, and I'm not seeing it. 



Cythrid testing is not Genetic testing and I do not see what the point of registering with TWI even does.



What is the merit? 


Where are the data collection numbers on TWI's site?


I do not see anything of substance on the TWI site, for the good of the animals or otherwise.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

What is the first step toward registering my frogs? Will I get something in the mail/email to let me know my frogs' #'s? Also, What are the details needed to make the registry worthwhile? Thanks! I want to do my part, and I think Michael is right, the private sector "cares" for more frogs by far than institutions. 

JBear


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## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

Ed said:


> I think if you read through the thread.. you can see where my personal stand is on registration.
> As for my thoughts on chytrid testing, you can go all the way back into the frognet archives to gain my thoughts at the beginning and through this mess.
> 
> If you feel that the only thing is the world is protecting your rights to own species that may no longer be present in the hobby in a few years; be my guest.. we have already seen extinctions in the hobby due to a lack of interest. (for example bumble be toads disappeared for a number of years (despite at least one captive breeding, and were unavailable until new imports came in.).. Or look at what happen to the Atelopus spumarius hoogmoedi that came into the hobby.. I think there are less than ten males left in the country (outside of preserved collections). In less than ten years..
> ...






Operation Frog Pond? How many animals were saved due to TWI's efforts? Where are the numbers and data?



Educating school children is trying to change something 20 years down the road. Where is the here and now change?



You know the more I hear about TWI the less I can find concrete evidence that any legislation, state or local laws have been influenced in any sort of way.




Where is the actual act of conservation taking place?


----------



## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> Keep in mind what Ed said just a few posts above: a relatively few number of people, if keeping their animals properly and breeding them relatively infrequently, could provide a minimum number of frogs needed to maintain frogs of known lineage and provenance...so even if the vast majority of the hobby/market doesn't know or care to know anything about their frogs or their frogs histories, you still have a small group of people safeguarding a solid group of animals. This is the role a TMG (Taxon Management Group) in TWI's Amphibian Steward Network would play. Regardless of what may happen in the greater hobby, this would ensure that reserve groups of frogs are continually bred for diversity and with clear info regarding their lineage.




How is TWI going to get a TMG off the ground? Make members not breed their frogs?

Make Zoo's adopt TMG's?

Make Importers Adopt TMG's?



Quite frankly this seems like a lot of wishful thinking.


I am an independent, but I am a breeder of many reptiles, I do not understand how TWI and members like ED bring up issues lie those discussed but can not answer the questions I am bringing up.



Take CCA International for instance.

It took them less than two years to have plans worked out with the Texas Parks and Wildlife and Hatcheries foundations for conservation and release programs.


I see references to proposed TMG's and registration's without genetic testing, which seems to make the registry fruitless and worthless.



I know of no registry with genetic testing, or any way to tell genetic lines.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> Operation Frog Pond? How many animals were saved due to TWI's efforts? Where are the numbers and data?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't an organization simply stand for something? It is not like TWI is hurting the hobby is it? Really it seems this debate has turned into something ugly, and personal. 

JBear


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> ED if you believe that, you are not even seeing what has happened to other hobbies with regulatory action. They only need to find evidence on one released to the wild to consider it an invasive species that can survive on US soil.


Actually I'm quite aware of what is going on in other hobbies... and you are grossly misrepresenting the discussion under hand with respect to the Lacy Act ban as well as ignoring the authority granted to USF&W.. I would suggest actually bothering to read what is says thier authority is under the Lacy act Injurious wildlife clause, specifically third titled paragraph from the top titled *What Does It Mean When a Species is Listed as Injurious **Wildlife?* If one bothers to read the paragraph, one should note that it says: 



> Regulation of transport or use within a State is the responsibility of each State. Possession of a species, within State boundaries, is also the responsibility of each State and is not regulated by an injurious wildlife listing.[/endquote]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Actually I'm quite aware of what is going on in other hobbies... and you are grossly misrepresenting the discussion under hand with respect to the Lacy Act ban as well as ignoring the authority granted to USF&W.. I would suggest actually bothering to read what is says thier authority is under the Lacy act Injurious wildlife clause, specifically third titled paragraph from the top titled *What Does It Mean When a Species is Listed as Injurious **Wildlife?* If one bothers to read the paragraph, one should note that it says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I wasn't going to respond to you again but this will be the end as you are making more accusations indicating a profound ignorance. 



ccfrogbreeder said:


> How is TWI going to get a TMG off the ground? Make members not breed their frogs?.


Actually no... there is no reason for members to not breed thier frogs as the hobby doesn't have to regulate production. They are can breed thier frogs all they want. We just want to know how the population is doing and allow for people to locate related/unrelated frogs when known. I made some comments on this above..if one chose to read the thread... 



ccfrogbreeder said:


> Make Zoo's adopt TMG's?


I guess you are unaware that Zoos have been using TMPs for decades. 



ccfrogbreeder said:


> Make Importers Adopt TMG's?


We are in no way mandating any participation. So we are not interested in making anyone adopt a TMG.. these accusations indicate that you have no understanding of a TMG, nor an understanding of how they work. 




ccfrogbreeder said:


> I am an independent, but I am a breeder of many reptiles, I do not understand how TWI and members like ED bring up issues lie those discussed but can not answer the questions I am bringing up.


They have been answered but you choose to not accept the answers or you are unclear on what you are asking or you do not bother to see that those questions were already answered in the above thread, or elsewhere. 



ccfrogbreeder said:


> Take CCA International for instance.
> 
> It took them less than two years to have plans worked out with the Texas Parks and Wildlife and Hatcheries foundations for conservation and release programs.


They are functioning under a different goal and program than we are as well as with a different funding base. 



ccfrogbreeder said:


> I see references to proposed TMG's and registration's without genetic testing, which seems to make the registry fruitless and worthless.
> 
> I know of no registry with genetic testing, or any way to tell genetic lines.


Virtually all of the TMPs/PMPs in the Zoos do not require genetic testing...

In addition, most of the species/morphs have been tracked to some extent by the original importers/lines or are still being imported rendering the need for genetic testing moot (particularly since none of the frogs in the hobby are suitable for release/repatriation programs) so all that needs to be done is maintain the maximal genetic diversity in the long-term. (this has been discussed here repeatedly as well as in this thread). 

ASN is based on the best recommended conservation programs. 
They are on the TWI site but are in the member's only area so they aren't out for convient view of the public at this time. 

Now, I'm done responding to you as mostly you want to throw unsupported accusations around in a very (personal opinion trollish manner). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?


Actually Tony, I have never said I didn't, in fact I have stated that I didn't think it was a good idea to ban interstate trade. I was specifically addressing your misinformation that I quoted above... This is not the first time, you were given that information that the under the proposed restrictions the feds would not have the ability to take your amphibians. Yet you have repeated the same argument.. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> Ron and Ed-
> 
> I completely understand your logic there, and I see what you mean. I appreciate you taking the time to educate the community(me  ), and I also want to say that in no way were my posts an attempt to discredit TWI. I have an absolute respect for organizations that are able to work towards conservation and also contribute to the protection(of genetic data..) of captive populations. In particular, organizations that work through volunteers. Hat's off to you guys! Thank you both so much for taking the time to explain this to me.
> 
> JBear


It is actually pretty easy. Just join TWI (which also gives you the magazine subscription with great articles on husbandry, travel etc), and fill out the ASN application. Fill out as much as you can and provide the information requested as best as you can. The registrar will contact you afterwards and your animals will be assigned registration numbers and entered into the data base. At least once a year ( please do it more frequently so the registrar isn't swamped), provide updates (animals sent out, deaths, additions, metamorphs at a minimum) and that is really all that is needed. If you need to pair up an animal, you can have the registrar check the database and make a recommendation or you can simply aquire an animal on your own and register it to your collection. If it already has an accession number it will be transferred to your collection with a new number. 
If you click on the ISIS link above and look under the various animals, you will see TWI as a holding institution. Those are all of the registered amphibians. 
It is pretty easy and not really a lot of work but it provides good data. As time goes on, we will hopefully be able to add in more important data such as clutch size, incubation times and conditions, rates of success with tadpoles etc.. 

Completed TMPs are made available to the members, and can have recommendations as which lines actually represent the same frogs or which lines should not be crossed into the frogs you have as well as husbandry and other good species information. We have several that have been completed but are always looking for more TMPs and they can be by one person or a group of people. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Actually Tony, I have never said I didn't, in fact I have stated that I didn't think it was a good idea to ban interstate trade. I was specifically addressing your misinformation that I quoted above... This is not the first time, you were given that information that the under the proposed restrictions the feds would not have the ability to take your amphibians. Yet you have repeated the same argument..
> 
> Ed


Point to me exactly where in that sentence I said anything about confiscation.

Here it is again:


Tony said:


> Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?


Go ahead, I'm waiting.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Tony said:


> Go ahead, I'm waiting.


Tony-

Ed stated clearly a few posts ago that he was not in favor of the interstate ban. I think that statement goes far to say he thinks it would hurt the hobby...

Forgive me if I have misspoken...

JBear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Point to me exactly where in that sentence I said anything about confiscation.
> Go ahead, I'm waiting.


Does this ring a bell? 



Tony said:


> Why, so they have a nice list of who has what to turn over if the ban goes through? .


Why worry about what frogs you have or who knows if the ban goes through as the ban does not authorize them to confiscate your collection.. This was also provided to you back in June when you complained about the possibility in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...study-used-against-froggers-3.html#post479188 

If you are worried about them coming for your home collection, you have already posted enough information for them here (as I noted in post number 30 of this thread). 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Does this ring a bell?


What you said:



Ed said:


> Actually Tony, I have never said I didn't, in fact I have stated that I didn't think it was a good idea to ban interstate trade. *I was specifically addressing your misinformation that I quoted above...* This is not the first time, you were given that information that the under the proposed restrictions the feds would not have the ability to take your amphibians. Yet you have repeated the same argument..
> 
> Ed


What you quoted in that post:



Tony said:


> Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?


Where in that statement is the misinformation located?

Let's look again:


Ed said:


> *I was specifically addressing your misinformation that I quoted above...*





Tony said:


> Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?


One more time:


Ed said:


> *I was specifically addressing your misinformation that I quoted above...*





Tony said:


> Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?


Funny, I don't see any misinformation. I don't even see a statement, simply a question asking your opinion. If you are going to blindly lash out at me and try to contradict whatever I say, the least you could do is put together a coherent argument.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony, 

You made an unfounded accusation. It has been responded to in clear detail in multiple posts. You have refused to recognize that it has been responded to it in clear detail.... I don't need to bother to respond further to your attempts to continue to draw it out. 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Tony,
> 
> You made an unfounded accusation.


Really? I'm pretty sure you accused me of spreading misinformation by asking the following:



Tony said:


> Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?



Let's look again, sure seems like it is your name attached to the unfounded accusation.



Ed said:


> *I was specifically addressing your misinformation that I quoted above...*


Maybe I am just seeing things?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Why, so they have a nice list of who has what to turn over if the ban goes through?


 
Are you now claiming that you didn't write this accusation? 

This is a unfounded accusation that TWI if the "ban" (referring to the Defender's of Wildlife Petition before USF&W to regulate amphibians interstate travel under the Lacy Act as injurious wildlife) would automatically provide information on personal collections.. 

This is not true and is totally unsupported by any evidence as I noted above and additionally you provided a deliberate false impression about the ban as it is beyond the scope of the Injurious wildlife listing language and regulations (and jurisdiction). The feds cannot regulate at the state level (as noted in the link and quote I provided above) with the Injurious wildlife language under the Lacy act. 

As this was unfounded and based on incorrect information it easily meets the bar that it was misinformation no matter how much you intend to attempt to twist it. It also gives a strong appearance that you have a personal grudge against TWI ( in addition to your own comments) and are willing to lie about issues regarding TWI (see the comments above on TMG rejection etc) as well as this unfounded accusation due to your own personal agenda. 

I am done with the trolls in this thread... 

Ed


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> Are you now claiming that you didn't write this accusation?


Are you claiming that is what you quoted in this post?



Ed said:


> Tony said:
> 
> 
> > Do you really believe that a prohibition on interstate sales will not cripple the hobby?
> ...


 


Ed said:


> It also gives a strong appearance that you have a personal grudge against TWI ( in addition to your own comments) and are willing to lie about issues regarding TWI (see the comments above on TMG rejection etc) as well as this unfounded accusation due to your own personal agenda.


What lie would that be? It is a FACT that nobody else joined the TMG, it is a FACT that my requests for a small amount of assistance went unanswered, and it is a FACT that out of the four TMPs published, all are for Dendrobatids or Mantellas. 

Since you want to talk about trolls and personal grudges, it is also a FACT that you turned this into a personal battle between the two of us by slinging thinly veiled insults.


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## ccfrogbreeder (Sep 13, 2010)

First off, unless you are in wildlife management as I have been been for years, you would not see the use of genetic testing is KEY.


I see your replies your little titbits of information to send me a quip and give a rouse.

I however am not beguiled by your statements sir, I am here to ascertain a answer to my query.


You sir continue to side step the issue, I ask yet again not to degrade, nor remand, yet to comprehend your lack of dispersal of information.



Now, how is it exactly you know that frogs from different imports are INFACT different pools and offer a different variety than those from latter or earlier shipments?


I see not how you have answered this, nor how TWI's registration solves this issue.



I await your response, that is if you choose to respond ED.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Beguiled, wasn't that with Clint Eastwood?

The Beguiled (1971) - IMDb


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

That's it........stop the bickering. It's green on green crime, afterall.

You are ALL pretty. End of discussion.

....I just came from here Mystic Water Kava Bar and need to chill..

Everyone chill out....like Fonzie.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

ccfrogbreeder said:


> First off, unless you are in wildlife management as I have been been for years, you would not see the use of genetic testing is KEY.


 What exactly have you done in 'wildlife management'? I'm sure most of us would be very interested in the experience you have, and how it could benefit the hobby. Where have you worked, in what capacity, successes, etc - we'd all appreciate it.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ok ... what the heck happened here? This went from an informative/inquisitive post to a "whose man-junk is bigger" post.

Life is too short for all the squabble and anger fellas/people. It looks to me from the outside looking in like a huge misunderstanding turned into a defensive arguement. Maybe u all just need to agree to disagree bc it seems to me that seeing eye to eye on this one is futile. 
People are clicking on this post to gain insight on a serious issue only to come across confusing retoric and then get lost in the shuffle. You ALL made valid points, and since its all matters of opinion, NOBODY is wrong here. You're all entitled to your beliefs and feelings but IMO there's no need to air out ur dirty laundry publicly; that's what PMs r for. 

Keep in mind, newcomers may come across this post and be completely turned off from this forum bc of it, and if they "walk away", then we will be abandoning them to learn/obtain info from the same "pet shop owners" we want them to avoid. 

Relax People! Seems to me a few of you need a hug.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I seriously doubt this will turn away new hobbyists. The forums will never be 100% friendly chat but yes we can strive for it. There are issues going on in the hobby right now that have hobbyists either angry or stressed.

Michael


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> I seriously doubt this will turn away new hobbyists. The forums will never be 100% friendly chat but yes we can strive for it. There are issues going on in the hobby right now that have hobbyists either angry or stressed.
> 
> Michael


Understandable; we all have our days. (God knows I'm guilty of that!)
People get caught up in the heat of the moment and lose focus on the purpose: to educate. Once something escalates past that point, feelings get hurt, tempers rise, and then the knowledge gets pushed aside. We r all adults and many people on here, many on this thread in fact have a lot to offer newcomers ... 

I'm not saying they would turn from the hobby, but maybe from the board. Its not likely, but its always a possibility. 

Just was browsing the thread and got caught offgaurd w/ the "wow factor" when I saw what was happening. That's all.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I think it is time forThunderDome!


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Exactly! Then we can actually try to find out how a Yankee soldier who got 4 southern girls to fall in love with him figures into all this................


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> I think it is time forThunderDome!


Lol ... I keep hearing about this. What exactly is ThunderDome?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Gamble said:


> Lol ... I keep hearing about this. What exactly is ThunderDome?


It is a non-regulated/moderated sub-forum found at the bottom of the Home page for the forum boards. It is suppossed to be a place where people can air their differences without the risk of offending the general community.

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Not to beat a dead horse, but this post from the Director of ASN department of TWI, may have answered a lot of questions...

Dart Frog Forum on Husbandry and Habitat Information - View Single Post - Twi/asn

Trust me, it is well-layed out and attempts to answer many questions posed toward the TWI/ASN organization. I hope this helps...

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

It was further addressed By Brent Brock who represents the OFP department of TWI:

Dart Frog Forum on Husbandry and Habitat Information - View Single Post - Twi/asn

JBear


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Tony, just a thought- I'm under the impression that the TMP's are meant to ensure captive breeding success for animals over the long term, for species that may not be at that point. RETF's are very established in the hobby, and thus the TMP is simply not needed for them. 

They stopped looking for new founders for the INIBICO variabilis TMP, and for nominal imis/intermedius/yurimaguensis because there are already enough being bred in the hobby to ensure the survival of the species. Mantella aurantica is critically endangered, so establishing it is a high priority. With vittatus, they're only looking for founders who can track their frogs' lineage back to the WC imports, again with long-term survival in mind. 

RETF's are all over the hobby and a TMP wouldn't affect the chances of the species surviving in the long run. I'd like to see more TMP's too... but I think you may have had more success if you had shot for a species that actually needs the program, dendrobatid or not. Not trying to spark another argument... as I said, just a thought.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

tclipse said:


> Tony, just a thought- I'm under the impression that the TMP's are meant to ensure captive breeding success for animals over the long term, for species that may not be at that point. RETF's are very established in the hobby, and thus the TMP is simply not needed for them.


They may be common, but are they really being managed in a way that would lead to long-term health of the captive population if imports were to stop tomorrow? I would have to say no. Not to mention that it could have served as a test case before moving on to the other _Agalychnis_ sp. which are in dire need of good management. 

It wouldn't be surprising if that was why there was so little interest though, common non-Dendrobatid frog, of course the dart frog club didn't care.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Tony said:


> They may be common, but are they really being managed in a way that would lead to long-term health of the captive population if imports were to stop tomorrow? I would have to say no. Not to mention that it could have served as a test case before moving on to the other _Agalychnis_ sp. which are in dire need of good management.
> 
> It wouldn't be surprising if that was why there was so little interest though, common non-Dendrobatid frog, of course the dart frog club didn't care.


All I can say is that I was in the Hobby back in the late 80's when Red Eyes were a dream species no longer available despite massive imports in the 70's and early 80's. Until Nicaragua opened up in the 90's there was alot of speculation that this would be another species lost to the hobby.

It happened once it can certainly happen again.


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