# Development and SLS



## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I got to thinking since I'm a biochem major, there may be several factors that could contribute to SLS. Assuming, though, that these frogs had everything they needed as tadpoles (nutrient-wise), I'm wondering if temperature possibly can make a big difference. Seeing as we humans keep our temp very stable, amphibians rely on their environment. I'm wondering if temps for tadpoles vary greatly in the wild (within a population/species) and then how much they vary depending on distance from the equator, near a stream/river, near the ocean etc... If so (and I'm sure they do) maybe we should watch these temps more closely. I also wonder if anyone has done any studies on kinetics with the enzymes that are responsible for bone formation (maybe specific to the arms, maybe not) in dendrobatids. If these guys work best at a specific temp, and you're too far off, you're probably going to get SLS. It seems that the front arms, being the smallest/thinnest extremities suffer the most from it but better overall bone development beyond stopping SLS could be gained by better understanding of optimal temperature for tadpole/froglet development.

-Nish


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Maybe I'll look into this myself but if anyone else has, lemme know.

-Nish


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I'm guessing that stable temps are not a factor as most SLS parents I have read about , and the one pum (robalo) morph I had some SLS issues with , seem to "work it out on their own" after a bit of time. There may be factors such as too high a temp for too long a period of time, or too low, but stability is not something I'd look at. I find that _not_ having stable temps is a good thing for all of the species I have worked with. There are night-time swings of more than 10-15 degrees in many areas we collect darts from, (higher elevations and farther from the equator) and at least 5-10 in almost all, and these swings help with breeding in captivity. One of the reasons I don't like to have giant lakes (AKA false bottoms) under my vivs to "stabilize temps". It is counterproductive.

Rich


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Ed K knows the SLS literature quite well. I would get in touch with him for specifics. He hasn't been around the board as much recently - so he may not stumble on this thread. Search his older posts - as I am pretty sure there have been lengthy posts before. He has also given a couple of talks at IAD/Frogdays regarding SLS.

A couple of years back there was also a grad student in the MD/PA/VA area (can't remember exactly where) who was doing research on the morphologic basis of SLS using histology of sectioned tissue samples from froglets with SLS. He posted one follow-up with preliminary data - but none since. I don't know if that data was published or not.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I have always wondered, why do we refer it as " working out the kinks" I have heard that the first few froglets of Vents almost always have SLS. It cant just be a fact that it will always happen. What is the history or research behind this?

My uncle( Is a Fish Scientist) asked me why the first few froglets always die, and I told him what I had heard, they were working out the kinks. He said there has to be some cause and effect for this to always happen..

Can you see what I am saying?


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

There could be 100 reasons why it happens. The female isn't producing good eggs yet is the simplest. Maybe she's too young.

Other reasons, though, when the frogs have matured for a while could be literally anything from nutrition, temperature, genetics and any one of these can cause a change in rate of development that can be good or bad.

I'm not too sure but if you think about it, in the wild these guys may do the same thing initially and we'd never know because they'd be dead and food for whatever down to bacteria. I get the impression, though, that because some can get it right and others can't that the issues will be resolved over time. They definitely need something though because there are species out there that are incredibly hard to breed next to some of the ones that most people are doing relatively easily.

-Nish


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

nish07 said:


> There could be 100 reasons why it happens. The female isn't producing good eggs yet is the simplest. Maybe she's too young.
> 
> Other reasons, though, when the frogs have matured for a while could be literally anything from nutrition, temperature, genetics and any one of these can cause a change in rate of development that can be good or bad.
> 
> ...


Ya but producing good eggs isnt why SLS occures it has to do mainly in the tadpole stage,.and if the reasoning is she is to young, then does that mean that you can keep a female away from a male until it is over a year old, then breed it and the eggs and tads will be fine.. I don't think so. 

But i totally agree with the rest of what you said.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Why do you assume its source is the tadpoles stage when work done in the 1990's showed that sls was eliminated from offspring of a group of wc Dendrobates auratus when their diet was improved and vitamins were given. Temperature may play a minor role, but the main cause of sls is the health and conditions of the parents. 

Best,

Chuck



Mac said:


> Ya but producing good eggs isnt why SLS occures it has to do mainly in the tadpole stage,.and if the reasoning is she is to young, then does that mean that you can keep a female away from a male until it is over a year old, then breed it and the eggs and tads will be fine.. I don't think so.
> 
> But i totally agree with the rest of what you said.


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## scott r (Mar 2, 2008)

Issue 12 of the American Dendrobatid Group Newsletter had a good article on SLS. 

Chuck, 
You still sell all issues up to 2000 for $90?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I strongly believe health and diet of the parents' is the primary factor of spindly leg. From experience, mantellas need a diverse non-fruitfly-exclusive diet to produce viable young.

What I want to know is what nutrient is lacking in their diet.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

If it can play any role at all then it's a possible source. Ed Kowalski has explained to me that changing tadpole temps at one point had stopped SLS in a group of his frogs. I don't assume it's any one thing or another. Several things need to be right for best development.

-Nish


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

It was explained in a older post that egg laying is rather taxing on the females and that it make take them time to build up the required levels of nutrients to lay healthy eggs.


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