# Oophaga pumilio "Blue jeans" Cost estimates for frogs and setup?



## Venom

Okay... so I won't be able to have these for quite a while, but my primary interest is in strawberry darts - "blue jeans" (and yes, I know they are TINY).

But I have some questions, so that I can be prepared whenever it is that I finally do decide to take the plung and get some.


Q 1: Is a 30 gallon aquarium (converted to a viv) sufficient, and if so, how many frogs/or pairs could I successfully house within?

Q 2: About how much do Oophaga pumilio "blue jeans" generally cost? And if you can be even more specific - in the Seattle area? Or if I were to have them shipped, how much would they be +shipping?

Q 3: Are they easy to breed? Do they require any extra special care or food other than FFs? 

Q 4: When you have these guys in a nicely planted naturalistic viv -do you ever see them? Or do they hide all the time.

Q 5: Are they pretty sensetive? I mean - I won't buy any and have them die the next day for seemingly no reason, now, will I?



Sorry, I apologize for my ignorance -but I'm kind of musing right now.

So -thanks! 

-Meggi


----------



## frogparty

EXPENSIVE!!! One of the most expensive darts around. maybe $500 a pair if youre lucky
Shipping is usually 50 bucks or so 
30 gal would be good for a pair
Pumilio are more sensetive than other darts, and I definitely WOULDNT reccomend them for beginners. Blue jeans aernt easy to breed from what I hear either. They would need springtails in addition to ffs, and isopods would be a good thing to have too.
Nicely planted vivs actually increase the visibility of many species because they feel safe and dont need to hide.


----------



## decev

Last pair I saw advertised was $550.

And I believe they cost a lot as a direct result of being very sensitive and hard to breed.


----------



## frogparty

But at least you live in Seattle where there are a ton of breeders with a myriad of other easier frogs to choose from!!!! You ever need anything let me know


----------



## poimandres

I've been doing a lot of research on pumilio's lately so this info is fresh in my head.

Q1. A well planted 30 gallon would be fine they will utilize all surface area (vertical and horizontal). It should be planted with plenty of bromiliads and loose leaf litter substrate (particularly for younger frogs that will use the leaves as hiding spots). You could feasibly keep a 1.2 group in this but definitely no more than 1 male as they can be very territorial.

Q2. The ones I've seen are in the $100 + range for unsexed juveniles. If you want to get a pair expect to pay upwards of double that per frog.

Q3. No they are not easy to breed. They are obligate egg feeders meaning that the tadpoles have to be raised by the parents. The mother will generally carry the hatched tadpoles to the cups of bromiliads and then periodically return to lay infertile eggs to feed the tad. The real problem with these are raising healthy froglets as they are quite fragile and will require a steady supply of springtails (ffs are much too big for them at this age).

Q4. They range in boldness, but generally if they are comfortable in their surroundings you will see them.

Q5. If I am not mistaken the 'blue jean' morph along with the 'man creek' and bastimentos isle are the hardier morphs of O. pumilio. They are still very delicate in comparison to the larger frogs (tincs and leucs), and are generally not considered a good beginner dart.

...hopefully, someone with more experience than myself will chime in. You should also read through the o. pumilio caresheet on this board and the links within.


----------



## frogparty

you WONT see unsexed true bluejeans for that cheap. What are offered on kingsnake as bluejeans are almirante or man creeks.


----------



## poimandres

frogparty said:


> you WONT see unsexed true bluejeans for that cheap. What are offered on kingsnake as bluejeans are almirante or man creeks.


I stand corrected...how much do true bluejean froglets go for?


----------



## frogparty

at least 200 bucks IF you can find them
the name bluejeans is often applied to many of the red with bluish legged pumilios. But TRUE bluejeans are quite distinctive. They are now very scarce in the US hobby due to lack of imports, and difficulty breeding enough to satisfy demand. 

If you just lke the look of red/orange with bluish legs, then Almirante or Man Creeks are widely available, but Id still reccomend getting cb offspring and not wc adults


----------



## Philsuma

decev said:


> And I believe they cost a lot as a direct result of being very sensitive and hard to breed.


 
100% wrong. They are easy to breed -as easy as any other Pumilio and probably more so than most other frogs...

So why?...Why are they so expensive? 

hint...the answer lies in another 6 page thread that is ongoing right now.


----------



## EricM

Meggi,

Blue jeans pumilio used to come into the country by the hundreds many times a year and were cheap but many died because they were not handled well from time of collection to the time they arrived in pet stores. This was back in the 80s and not many of those frogs are still around. This is one reason for the high price.

Pumilio as a species are not baby machines. Most dart frogs produce less in captivity as compared to frogs in the wild, and pumilio are obligate egg feeders; so the parents have to raise the froglets up by themselves. This just takes a long time.

As with all frogs some pairs are more prolific than others, and some produce babies for awhile and then stop for months and then start again. 

Pumilio are not hard to keep as compared to other dart frogs, they do need smaller food items and the froglets need really small insects like springtails or wingless fruit flys strains.

The best piece of advice is get some experience with other dart frogs, especially culturing the food insects. Once you have the basics down you will have all the tools to keep pumilio successfully.

Finding them is a lot harder due to the fact that they are rare in captivity. A lot more people keep this morph now so it should become a bit easier to find in the future.

Normally with pumilio you should only keep one male in a tank, in some cases the males are so territorial they will fight and the weaker frog can die from stress and not feeding.

There are many other morphs of pumilio in the hobby and most of them are pretty bold frogs that will do what they do even when you are watching them.

If you can avoid wild caught or farmed frogs for your first acquisitions, they are more sensitive to improper care and acclimating to captivity. You may pay more for captive bred frogs up front but you will avoid many problems that way, and it may end up saving you money in the long run. 

Good luck in the hobby
Eric


----------



## decev

Philsuma said:


> 100% wrong. They are easy to breed -as easy as any other Pumilio and probably more so than most other frogs...
> 
> So why?...Why are they so expensive?
> 
> hint...the answer lies in another 6 page thread that is ongoing right now.


Shows what I know. Thanks for clearing that up


----------



## ESweet

Philsuma said:


> 100% wrong. They are easy to breed -as easy as any other Pumilio and probably more so than most other frogs...
> 
> So why?...Why are they so expensive?
> 
> hint...the answer lies in another 6 page thread that is ongoing right now.


I agree with Phil - they aren't that difficult to breed, though the further you get from Wild Caught frogs, the harder they seem to be to breed.

As for cost, you're actually looking at $250+ per frog, $900 for a pair, give or take.


----------



## Philsuma

decev said:


> Shows what I know. Thanks for clearing that up


No worries Dave. Please don't be offended or think that my post was harsh.

Eric is dead on with his post above and I thank him for doing that heavy lifting.

We all want each other to have success with these amazing animals. No question is stupid.


----------



## decev

Philsuma said:


> No worries Dave. Please don't be offended or think that my post was harsh.
> 
> Eric is dead on with his post above and I thank him for doing that heavy lifting.
> 
> We all want each other to have success with these amazing animals. No question is stupid.


Don't worry it would be hard to offend me. Actually I'm glad that the experienced folk can come in and clean up any messes I leave. Who knows why I'm here trying to give advice in a pumilio thread anyway  

Back on track... I like the red and blue pumilio too maybe I'll actually get some some day


----------



## Arrynia

So, Phil. Without having looked at the ongoing discussion for the answer, I'm going to say high mortality rate in offspring?


----------



## Philsuma

Arrynia said:


> So, Phil. Without having looked at the ongoing discussion for the answer, I'm going to say high mortality rate in offspring?


There is a bit of breeding variation but in @ 7 different morphs of Pumilio that I have kept (No BJ btw), I think Pumilio are all similar. 

That said, the larger inland morphs produce bigger froglets capable of handling bigger prey items and thus are a little "sturdier" but blue jeans mortality should be no worse than other pums IMO.

If anything, a slight case could be made to justify higher pricing for Escudo since they are markedly smaller, but not Blue jeans.

They are more expensive because they are a Costa Rican and Nicaraguan frog that is not _legally_ imported anymore.


----------



## Arrynia

Philsuma said:


> There is a bit of breeding variation but in @ 7 different morphs of Pumilio that I have kept (No BJ btw), I think Pumilio are all similar.
> 
> That said, the larger inland morphs produce bigger froglets capable of handling bigger prey items and thus are a little "sturdier" but blue jeans mortality should be no worse than other pums IMO.
> 
> If anything, a slight case could be made to justify higher pricing for Escudo since they are markedly smaller, but not Blue jeans.
> 
> They are more expensive because they are a Costa Rican and Nicaraguan frog that is not _legally_ imported anymore.


The reason I said that is because I was thinking back to 6-7 years ago. I knew several people that were working with blue jeans and got good egg production from them but they were struggling with the problem of tads either not morphing or morphing out only to see the froglets die off soon after. 
This was before that first large shipment of farm raised pumilio that we got in from Panama. There wasn't a lot to chose from before then, as far as pumilio forms/locales. Basti's seemed to make up the majority of the pumilio market as people were having great success with them.


----------



## UmbraSprite

First I agree that most "blue jeans" you see are Panama "man-creek" or "almirante" morphs from just over the CR/Panama border. These have been incredibly robust and easy to keep frogs for me with great breeding results.

True "blue jeans" are Costa Rican in origin and thus no longer legally available for export. 

Pumilio in general are incredibly hardy and robust frogs capable of adapting to many environmental changes (I have see them breeding in beer cans in Panama). Breeding isn't difficult however as mentioned tadpole and particularly froglet mortality tends to be high. They require good leaf litter and micro fauna (springtails etc) to survive as they are too small for even melanogaster fruit flies. 

Escudo (which are turning out to not even be pumilio) have been much more successful for me in terms of froglet survival. The reason these guys are expensive is that the island where they exist is remote and difficult to reach. More and more are being bred in captivity however so you will see prices drop in the future. 

If you are looking to keep pumilio as adults and are not concerned with breeding I find them no more difficult than other small species. Due to the costs however if you are completely new to darts species like tinctorius and terribilis are much more resistant to "mistakes" in husbandry.

Chris


----------



## decev

UmbraSprite said:


> Escudo (which are turning out to not even be pumilio)
> Chris


Learn something new every day. What journal is this in, or even better is there a link that I can read about this at?


----------



## UmbraSprite

Not sure....Mike K may be able to help us out here.


----------



## npaull

Comments about froglet survival above are dead on. Though the adults are hardy, the froglets are often sensitive, and in particular can be hard to feed.

For this and other reasons, people who say "30 gallons is fine" are wrong in my opinion.

30 gallons is *bare minimum* for a pair of pumilio, in my opinion. Do people have success with this size? Sure. Do many people breed some morphs of pumilio in these small enclosures? Sure. 

But in my experience and in discussion with others on this issue, a huge hurdle to maintaining low froglet mortality with pumilio is the presence of a truly wide array of microfauna. This is really only possible in larger vivaria. I was astonished how much better froglet survival I had when I stopped using vivaria smaller than 60 gallons for pumilio (and bigger is better).

In any case, with regards to blue jeans in particular, they are the kind of species no one should think about keeping until experience with dart frogs in general, and with pumilio in particular, has already taught them the answers to all the questions you've posed (to which you've received many good answers, though I disagree about the size of the vivarium recommendations).


----------



## Philsuma

Excellent posts.

The tank set up is key. Microfauna in the viv is one part.....the other part is the hobbyists ability to CULTURE the springs and woodlice ect on their own with reliability.

If you are considering Pumilio, you should be very confident in your ability to not only design and maintain the correct viv with a proper microfauna compliment, but you should be able to maintain multiple springtail and sowbug cultures as well.

I wholeheartedly agree about larger enclosure size. We _still_ get hobbyists that say...."I heard -5 gallons per frog is the rule to go by" and "I know a lot of people that breed frogs in 10 gallon tanks and do really well with them"......

20 gallon vert for 1.1 - minimum.

33 gallon (exo) for 1.2 - minimum.


----------



## skylsdale

I don't believe there is an official published paper regarding Oophaga sp. "Escudo," although genetic work has been done on that population compared to the mainland population on the Escudo side of the Valiente peninsula (the two were most likely part of the same population when sea levels were lower). However, last I heard the paper that would have those results is probably not going to be published anytime in the near future.


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Philsuma said:


> We _still_ get hobbyists that say...."I heard -5 gallons per frog is the rule to go by" and "I know a lot of people that breed frogs in 10 gallon tanks and do really well with them"......


That's one that really frustrates me. I know some great breeders who have my respect who I know do wonderful things with ten gallon tanks. I know a breeder on the east coast who has amazing success breeding retics in 10 gallon horizontal vivs. That being said, I don't think most of us have the experience we need to design ten gallon vivs to provide all the requirements for our frogs ( _especially_ some of the more delicate frogs). I hear the same argument pretty regularly, but it just makes me think that this is a new hobbyist who's trying to push the boundaries of keeping healthy, well maintained frogs so that they can keep _more_ frogs.


----------



## Arrynia

Philsuma said:


> Excellent posts.
> I wholeheartedly agree about larger enclosure size. We _still_ get hobbyists that say...."I heard -5 gallons per frog is the rule to go by" and "I know a lot of people that breed frogs in 10 gallon tanks and do really well with them"......
> 
> 20 gallon vert for 1.1 - minimum.
> 
> 33 gallon (exo) for 1.2 - minimum.


I concur. Whenever I see people say that, I automatically interpret it as being that they want to cut as many corners as possible and still expect optimal results. I do understand that there are alot of breeders that have large collections and limited space so th use of 10 gallons becomes very viable and economical. All in all, common sense plays a big role here. To me, our frogs deserve the best we can give them...they didn't ask to be brought into captivity. The same holds true for any captive animal, for that matter.


----------



## AFHokie03

Venom,
First off, good on you for researching. That is a major first step in successful PDF-keeping. A lot of people jump right in and are posting Emergency! Help! My frog is dying and I have no idea why! My new Cayo de Agua won't eat the crickets I'm giving it. Extreme example but you get the point. As everyone has said, and I'm sure you have inferred from all the discussion, pumilio is probably not where you want to start in the hobby. Sure, you can do it with the right research and time, but it would make your life easier and less stressful to start with an easier species to keep. If you are set on pumilio, do as much research as you possibly can, get with other froggers and know what you are getting into. I would never tell anyone they can't....just maybe they shouldn't. 

Whatever route you choose, welcome to the hobby and be sure to use this site to the max potential. All you could hope to learn you can learn from everyone here.

Ken


----------



## Venom

Thank you guys so much for all your fantastic and informed replies. You have no idea how helpful you have been. (I even got someone offering me some pumilios, but I graciously declined). 

I had always assumed that this was one of the more common and (more inexpensive) varieties of PDF - I now see that it is unlikely that I will ever own any blue jeans (sad) but I'm glad I didn't rush out and buy some only to kill them off.

In the future, when I have the money, time, and space, I will probably start with a pair of auratus or something along those lines... I have lots of animals already (parrots, dogs, fish) so I don't want to get super-involved in the hobby to the point of having a "frog room" (I actually still want a "bird-room"...).

Again, thanks all for your replies - it is much appriciated. I can tell you know, I never, ever expected to get 3 pages of response on my question!

-Meggi


----------



## tarbo96

Me and a buddy of mine went on a trip to Costa Rica last year and on an hour long hike we counted 160 blue jeans without even looking for them, they were everywhere (this is by no means a political statement) I was like a kid in a candy store. They ranged so much in color but were unbelievable. Pretty bold too, we had to watch were we stepped so we didnt squash them.


----------



## PumilioTurkey

Venom said:


> Thank you guys so much for all your fantastic and informed replies. You have no idea how helpful you have been. (I even got someone offering me some pumilios, but I graciously declined).
> 
> I had always assumed that this was one of the more common and (more inexpensive) varieties of PDF - I now see that it is unlikely that I will ever own any blue jeans (sad) but I'm glad I didn't rush out and buy some only to kill them off.
> 
> In the future, when I have the money, time, and space, I will probably start with a pair of auratus or something along those lines... I have lots of animals already (parrots, dogs, fish) so I don't want to get super-involved in the hobby to the point of having a "frog room" (I actually still want a "bird-room"...).
> 
> Again, thanks all for your replies - it is much appriciated. I can tell you know, I never, ever expected to get 3 pages of response on my question!
> 
> -Meggi



Also think about problems like illness or injuries.

ie my pumilio Darkland male has had an anal prolapse. Now imagine my terror because of the size of that animal.


----------



## PantMan

I'm glad i came across this post. I'm currently building a 46 gallon bow. Originally, it was being built for either vent's or imi's but after seeing Andy's frogs last week and talking to some experienced froggers I think I would rather go with Basti's or Man Creek. I have two successful spring cultures (one temperate, the other tropical), and striped isopods. the viv is already seeded with isopods and springs and I planted seven broms some that hold a ton of water. There is also a ton of leaf litter in the viv. At this point I'm basically have to wait for the micrfofauna to take off and finish planting.

So here is my questions. Based on the size of my tank (46 gal) Can I go 1.2 or should I stick with 1.1?


----------



## Philsuma

That size _could_ allow for a trio but if you are new to pumilio....why not start slower and try for 1.1 and ease into it. It will be easier on your wallet too. You could add another female later on - not hard to do.

The more room the better......


----------



## PantMan

Good idea. thanks for the advice.


----------



## dartboi101

If your still looking for some Blue Jeans you should contact Rich Frye. I know that he has some breeding pairs for himself and on another forum he has had froglets available in the past.


----------

