# The ultimate clay-based substrate thread



## gary1218

With the recent discussions on a few posts concerning Brent's redart clay substrate I was wondering if anybody is thinking of switching to this substrate and how you were planning on doing it.

Merged Red-Art Clay thread and part of Husbandry improvements thread from Science and Conservation - Oz


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## froggerboy

after seeing his set up and trying to combine with some of mine I decided it was best not to use it with a water fall or drip wall.I've been using pond plant soil that I found a home depot(a cheap version of flourite).Unfortunately the pond soil,which is nothing but shattered clay fragments, doesnt give you the microfuana build up that the moist redart clay does.A misting system seems to work best for the clay substrate.


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## Ed

I mixed up clay substrate (bentonite) about 75/25 with peat as a trial and it holds up well to a drip system as long as you don't let it dry out. 

Ed


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## kyle1745

There are a couple of efforts ongoing to try to replicate a more "rainforest like" soil. 

I think the key thing to note which is a big thing I am fighting is that most normal substrates do not handle the extended damp conditions of our tanks. They break down over time.

At least for larger collections or well misted ones I am thinking that even fine aquarium gravel would be better than some of the common substrates, but don't quote me on that. 

I am going to test a couple of different things and see how they do over time as I think a number of other people are as well.


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## gary1218

Is the purpose of the redart clay to keep the substrate from breaking down and needing to be replaced? Or does the redart clay contain minerals/trace elements that are beneficial to the frogs?


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## kyle1745

I think the clay in general is for drainage, but some of the "soil geeks" would need to explain the real reason.


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## froggerboy

> .....does the redart clay contain minerals/trace elements that are beneficial to the frogs?


I dont know if there is a direct benefit to the frogs but the plants seem to appreciate it.There is so much clay in the soil around here that I decided to try it out in my tank with a layer of cypress/cocofiber/moss over that followed by leaf litter.I still prefer the bentonite,but I dont know where to find it down here. It has a waxy consistency that holds better in saturated enviorments.I'm still looking for a better way to bind the clay to the wall, It had interesting texture to it but it wasn't able to withstand the moisture and fell down.


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## KeroKero

Yes there are benefits for the frogs, check out the posts on soils by Brent... one of the benefits talked about was the higher calcium levels found in substrate microfauna that were being fed on by froglets in a tank produced by Matt Mirabello (check out his thread for more) and how Brent does not have calcium problems in tank raised pumilio froglets on his soil substrate.


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## kyle1745

The question I have is can the calcium levels be adjusted in other soils with some of the same methods?

I just ordered some of this to try, and plan to add some laterite and some other things to it.

I am also trying one of the suggested clay based soils, but currently do not have any pumilio to get a true test. I may have to break down and get some escudos to test with.


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## Ed

Yes the calcium level of the soil can be adjusted but you have to know the calcium content first... 
Also you have to have soil invertebrates which are going to be in the soil for the frogs to ingest... 

Ed


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## kyle1745

Guess the link would help...
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/P ... 004+113555

Interesting Ed and Im trying a couple of things. At least my current thinking is to use one thing for pumilio and something else for the none egg feeders. Having had poor luck with pumilio until now I am preparing a larger tank for another shot at it. I am hoping to use a "Brent based soil". 

If I had to guess at my problems they would go like this in order:
- too small of a tank
- poor substrate which broke down over time and became infested with mites.


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## Corpus Callosum

Flora Base, interesting, let us know how that works out. I just ordered some Fluorite to give that a try.


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## gary1218

Has anybody bought a large bag of the redart clay and wants to sell a small quantity of it?


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## Exoticdarts

We just received a 1000 lb shipment of tropical Laterite clay and will have it for sale on our website very soon. It will be offered in powder and crushed forms. Pricing will be .50 per lb and we can fit 5 lbs in a 1 gallon bag. Shipping is USPS priority flat rate box. Two 1 gallon bags can be shipped in one box to save on shipping. We have personally tested this product for over a year and it is currently being used in all 60 + of our tanks with very good results.


We do have both for sale.


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## Scott

Interesting - what % are you using in soil?

I use ABG mix, so I'm not sure that this would be a proper additive for it, but I'm very interested in Brent/Matt's view on the soil world.

s


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## UmbraSprite

So why would one choose Redart vs Lateralite (sp?)?


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## gary1218

UmbraSprite said:


> So why would one choose Redart vs Lateralite (sp?)?


I'm interested in the answer to this as well before I buy one or the other.

From previous discussions it sounds like the calcium level in the substrate is what people are concerned about. Does one or the other contain more calcium? Are there other advantages to using one over the other?

THANKS!!!


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## Guest

> I use ABG mix, so I'm not sure that this would be a proper additive for it, but I'm very interested in Brent/Matt's view on the soil world.


If you're thinking of the clay in terms of using it as an additive in more organic substrates, I think you're missing the philosophy behind it (I'm not picking on you at all, Scott--just pointing out the idea of using it as an additive, which has popped up in nearly every thread about soil). Organic substrates are useful for growing plants. A clay-based substrate is about helping bridge the gaps in the ecological cycle in our vivs and the overall health and well-being of the frogs contained in them. 

Organic substrates break down into muck and lose their structure over time. Clay-based aggregates hold their structure, providing a permanent habitat for microfauna to inhabit and repopulate. Adding aggregate to an organic substrate defeats the purpose, because you eventually end up with clay particles surrounded by dense muck--there isn't any suitable space provided for inverts. 

Dealing with clay-based soil is a complete shift in mindset from working with organic substrates. I don't see that the two can be cohesively integrated.


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## Scott

Thanks! That's why I asked... I've followed it, but not as closely as I could (or will).

s


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## Corpus Callosum

I know tree fern (loose) is an organic substrate, but it seems to hold up well over time for me. Would making a mixture of that and the clay still defeat the purpose of using the clay?

KRM, I too would like to hear more about any comments you might have on laterite vs. redart, thanks.


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## Dancing frogs

gary1218 said:


> UmbraSprite said:
> 
> 
> 
> So why would one choose Redart vs Lateralite (sp?)?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested in the answer to this as well before I buy one or the other.
> 
> From previous discussions it sounds like the calcium level in the substrate is what people are concerned about. Does one or the other contain more calcium? Are there other advantages to using one over the other?
> 
> THANKS!!!
Click to expand...

I belive you use the redart as an unfired clay, it will basicly turn to glop in the bottom of the tank.
Laterite is fired, and will not turn to glop, and will provide drainage for ever.


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## gary1218

Dancing frogs said:


> I belive you use the redart as an unfired clay, it will basicly turn to glop in the bottom of the tank.
> Laterite is fired, and will not turn to glop, and will provide drainage for ever.


If I remember Brent's post correctly he mixes up the redart clay powder with water as if you were going to use it to throw a clay pot. Then he lays it out as a 1/4" slab to completely dry out. Then he smashes it into smaller pieces to mix into his substrate. I don't think he has a problem with it then turning into glop in the bottom of the tank.

Hopefully Brent will pick up on this post and give us his input.


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## Dancing frogs

That would work so long as you don't spray the tank heavily on a regular basis...
But unfired clay, exposed to moisture, will turn to muck.
Trust me, I grew up with clay.


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## Corpus Callosum

I was told fluorite is the one that's fired and even though laterite is sold in a granular form for aquarists it isn't fired and will not hold it's form once wet. Not to doubt the above info, just trying to get to the bottom of what I was told and where the misinformation lies.


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## Ed

If it can't turn to some level of "muck" (although this does depend on drainage...) then it is hard for the substrate to present in/on the invertebrates to be ingested by the frogs... When dealing with clay in some of the tests I have made, you can actually sculpt areas (peaks) in the substrate that are dry to the touch on the top... The lower levels will turn to some levels of muck... 
When dealing with these items in the terraria you hydrate the substrate and sculpt it into place and then let it dry for about 24-36 hours so it can "set" into place. Once it has set it is pretty stable but if you let it really dry out and then wet it, you have to let it set again. In an enclosure at work, I have a clay/peat admixture covered with a live moss, holding a rock waterfall together over which the unrestricted outflow of a magnum 350 runs... 

People also need to understand that you need a variety of soil invertebrates so the frogs can try to meet thier nutritional needs by modifying thier diet (as wild frogs do....) Just having isopods and springtails is probably going to be an insufficient variety.... 

Ed


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## Exoticdarts

To answer the ?? on Laterite & Redart -

Laterite & Redart are both made from a red soil found in tropical and subtropical regions that has been leached of soluble minerals, aluminum hydroxides and silica. They are both rich in iron, which is an important nutrient for plants, and also gives it that rain forest floor red look.

Most all Laterite & Redart clay is currently mined from different parts of the US. You can find Redart in most pottery supply houses. Laterite can be a bit harder to find and comes from just a few specific places throughout the US. 

Laterite will have a brighter and richer red look over the Redart clay due to the slightly higher iron content.

Both versions of the clay come in raw pulverized powders that have not been fired. When fired, they lose their benefits needed for making a clay soil. It would be the same as using crushed clay pots or Hydroton.

When we prepare the crushed clay, we use a mixture of 30lbs of Aragonite sand to 50lbs of Laterite.

Why do we use Aragonite sand?

1. It gives the clay structure and strength.

2. The calcium slowly leaches into the soil with watering and age. This provides a direct source of high calcium for the soil invertebrates which the froglets feed on, making them healthier and their survival rate higher. 

We then mix the clay with water to a consistency of thick mud and place it on a hemp canvas for two weeks or until dry. It is then folded and crushed to a size of 20mm and smaller.

You can mix the clay with any type of sand, peat, coco, or sphagnum with good results. Just make sure the substrate is not over watered. We usually only water 20 seconds every other day, just enough to wet the plants.

Sprinkling the clay powder over the previous soil also works well. When watered, it too will work its way into the soil.

I believe most people will find mixing, drying, crushing and sprinkling it over their previous soil a lot easer to do.

Here is a photo at one month so you can see what the soil looks like without the crushed clay. The mix we use for this setup is Redart clay, Cocogrow, collected forest soil, and peat/sphagnum moss. It is mixed and then placed on top of a 2" layer of Higromite with black screen in between the two. 










Hope this can help in any way.

Kevin


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## froggerboy

doesn't the argonite affect the PH of the soil, making it too alkaline?


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## Exoticdarts

In the amount we use its not enough to effect the PH on any large or small scale. You would have to use quite a bit of Aragonite to raise the PH value of the soil. Tropical soils range from 4.3-7.0 depending on where it is tested.

A good target range in soil is 6.2-6.5 and this will give that desired lush green growth we all look for.


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## kyle1745

So Aragonite acts as a supply for calcium? Where is a good place to buy it?


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## Guest

One of the more common places is reef tank suppliers. HERE is some. However, a MUCH cheaper alternative (if you're in the right area of the states) is the SouthDown or Yardright brand playsands. Check your local Home Depot for it. It's a playsand for sandboxes, but it's actually collected in tropical waters, so it's actually an aragonite sand. Check this out: http://www.crabstreetjournal.com/produc ... ysand.html


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## Exoticdarts

"Aragonite is a constituent of many sea creatures' shell structures; a curious development since calcite is the more stable form of calcium carbonate. Most bivalve animals and corals secrete aragonite for their shells and pearls are composed of mostly aragonite."

Aragonite sand is made of crushed corals and mollusks. These both have extremely high content of calcium carbonate. This is why calcium pills are usually made of oyster shells or coral calcium; it's almost pure calcium.

You can find Aragonite reef sand at most saltwater shops and Petco's, but be prepared to pay the price. The product to look for is Aragonite #0 or #1. We choose #1 because it closest resembles sand size particles and we combine this with our clays and soils to make a wonderful substrate for our vivs. Remember, you will not be using this in large quantities in your soils; *it is simply an additive and must be treated as that. More does not mean better.*

After working with reef tanks for the last 20 years as a business, I am learning that I can incorporate certain aspects of that into the frog world. I hope that sharing this knowledge will help others in this hobby.


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## Matt Mirabello

*preparing terrarium soil*

I have been meaning to post my soil recipes for a while now. On Monday I will have some exact numbers, pictures, ideas and recommendations.

For now I just want to touch on a couple things that have been said already. The soil benefits the frogs not only through calcium but a better balance and delivery of nutrients to the frogs. The key to getting it to be a success is for the soil arthropods to survive in the soil. For this to occur you need a reasonable depth of soil that is not waterlogged or compacted. The soil arthropods will live, eat, and breed in the pores of the soil where they are safe from frogs. Inevitably, and hopefully, they will wander out of the soil and a portion of their population will become frog food.

Although most of the tropics is covered in red-orange soil this is not essential for a healthy arthropod population. In fact temperate soils of clay/silt origin are much more enriched in all nutrients (except nitrogen). Furthermore I have been to parts of the tropics that are covered in very nutrient rich soils that are of volcanic origin, these soils are black.

For those of you in the southwest United states (and even through Maryland) you have access to Ultisols, a red/orange soil that is similar to tropical soils.

The key steps to being successful is getting soil aggregates that do not break down despite repeated wetting/raining from misting systems.

My experimental IAD soil tank is doing well and the soil is not having its aggregates break down. the pore spaces are maintaining and you can see organisms moving in these spaces.

In my next posts I will go over some of the ways I have found to do this and will try to have some soil available at Frog Day


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## IN2DEEP

*?'s*

:?: Not trying to jack this thread, but maybe a soil guru can answer a few ?'s for me. Does anyone have any experience/opinions of Eco-Complete planted aquarium substrate from CaribSea? I just picked up a bag from local pet shop for a new viv. I know it's not rainforest-like, it's black, but it is a very fine gravel and I'm planning on constant water running over media to keep humidity up. It says it's "mineralogically and biologically complete". My concerns are will it work? I'm planning on using a false bottom, will the media's mineral content quickly deplete due to water changes? Also, would it need to be an under another layer of substrate, because it contains minute fragments of gravel that could be accidentally ingested by PDFs? (I can take a pic of the mineral content if it would help.) -Thanks.


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## kyle1745

Just a minor report that I have been testing 2 new soils. One being a store bought clay based soil, and another from a well known member here. My early thoughts are they are both very different compared to the normal dirt, coco bedding, or sphagnum substrates. They both dry rather fast and as do the plants and leaf litter. The frogs though seem happy and active and seems to find food much better than on the sphagnum. 

I am waiting on some supplies to make more but so far I think we are all missing the clay based substrate train. 

Can't wait to see Matts formula.


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## a hill

Well ME coming from the planted aquariums side of hobbies similar to this has been wondering since I got into that hobby about this hobby's substrate mixes since all it really is is a drainage layer with plants and leaf litter on it.

Could anyone post links to the other posts that are being talked about? Would be interesting to read them...

Kyle: flora base is a great substrate in my opinion in my experience with planted fish tanks, and is a good size to maximize micro fauna growth. It slowly breaks down but also keeps it's size particles varied well so it should work the same way in the viviaria in my opinion, but I haven't tried that. Another substrate to look at is one that is pretty much swamping the Planted aquarium hobby, ADA AS stands for aquarium design amano's aqua soil. They aren't a vendor here that I know of but I don't think drs. foster and smith is either... either way if the link shouldn't be in my post edit it out. Here it is: http://www.adgshop.com/Substrate_System_s/1.htm You may know Chris or Jeff from similar boards great guys from what I've seen/heard.




skylsdale said:


> Dealing with clay-based soil is a complete shift in mindset from working with organic substrates. I don't see that the two can be cohesively integrated.


I agree, but I've always been surprised that there isn't another school of thought similar to this. The only drawback I can think of is possible smell, but I doubt that would be much different than the decomposing substrate mixes used presently by the majority.



gary1218 said:


> Dancing frogs said:
> 
> 
> 
> I belive you use the redart as an unfired clay, it will basicly turn to glop in the bottom of the tank.
> Laterite is fired, and will not turn to glop, and will provide drainage for ever.
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember Brent's post correctly he mixes up the redart clay powder with water as if you were going to use it to throw a clay pot. Then he lays it out as a 1/4" slab to completely dry out. Then he smashes it into smaller pieces to mix into his substrate. I don't think he has a problem with it then turning into glop in the bottom of the tank.
> 
> Hopefully Brent will pick up on this post and give us his input.
Click to expand...

If this is what is being done, there isn't any point in not buying a pre-made mix that is used in the aquatic planted tank hobby, its the exact same stuff which is going to hold form much better.



Corpus Callosum said:


> I was told fluorite is the one that's fired and even though laterite is sold in a granular form for aquarists it isn't fired and will not hold it's form once wet. Not to doubt the above info, just trying to get to the bottom of what I was told and where the misinformation lies.


Flourite is mined. The other ones above are fired. (I may be incorrect though, flourite is most likely fired as well to make sure it holds its mined form and doesn't break down)



kyle1745 said:


> So Aragonite acts as a supply for calcium? Where is a good place to buy it?


I would actually reccomend oyster shells as a calcium supp. much cheaper than purchasing large ammounts of REEF sand.

Just some rushed thoughts,
-Andrew


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## kyle1745

I have a tank with the flora base but I think it is a bit too light for the frog tanks. It is also based on volcanic clay which I had thought someone mentioned broke down faster and had less nutrients than others. It is also rather expensive.

The soil I made, while a pain to make, seems to be working great. Its hard to say how either this or the above will hold up over time but so far I am liking the home made a bit better.

In my case price is a big deal as I have a number of tank that need refreshed. Interesting idea on the crushed shells for the calcium.

Are there cheaper options than the flora base? That may hold a little more weight so they do not stick to the frogs.


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## Tripod

Kyle, 

How 'bout that recipe? 

With all the new tanks purchased during the Petco sale, there's ample opportunity for the community at large to put some of these ideas to the test. Maybe Matt, and Brent will post theirs as well so we can have a few different ones to try.

I've got 4 more tanks to set up and wouldn't mind trying out a couple different new substrates.

Steven


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## kyle1745

Sorry I can not give it out, as it is not mine. I am by no means a "soil" expert as some of the members are.


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## Dendrobait

Laterite is mined from rainforest type soil(often after the land has been clearcut)...and dissolves underwater.


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## gary1218

kyle1745 said:


> Sorry I can not give it out, as it is not mine. I am by no means a "soil" expert as some of the members are.


Any chance you can get the person who you got the recipe from to post it?


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## a hill

kyle1745 said:


> I have a tank with the flora base but I think it is a bit too light for the frog tanks. It is also based on volcanic clay which I had thought someone mentioned broke down faster and had less nutrients than others. It is also rather expensive.
> 
> The soil I made, while a pain to make, seems to be working great. Its hard to say how either this or the above will hold up over time but so far I am liking the home made a bit better.
> 
> In my case price is a big deal as I have a number of tank that need refreshed. Interesting idea on the crushed shells for the calcium.
> 
> Are there cheaper options than the flora base? That may hold a little more weight so they do not stick to the frogs.


There probably are somewhere, I would have to ask... Edit that now I think of it. Soilmaster Select I believe is pretty much the same stuff but MUCH cheaper. You want soilmaster "Select" since it's been fired longer than the other stuff. Its also made for landscaping and things like that (golf courses etc,) so it should hold up better than florabase may. Its sold by Lesco. A write up about how someone used it in their fish tank can be seen here, http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Soi ... strate/26/

I'm not sure about the weight I think they're all pretty light, but even if you used this as a base, and mixed it with some laterite or "redart" it should be an easier way to keep the soil more 'porus' and not get all hard and like a brick after a week. 

As for the shells, its a pretty basic idea. Oyster shells are cheap, smash them or grind them up and its a much cheaper way than buying the sand, which is the exact same stuff just crushed up already by fish/ocean. 

My question is this, Will the calcium in the substrate be too much and throw off an inbalance? Edd always talks about ratios to make sure its not too much ratio of like 15:10:5 or something like that. 

And since adding calcium could you mix in a thing of herpative and repcal while you're at it? Just add it to your substrate mix and hopefully it can help some? It would "save" a lot of the vitamins that get thrown out all the time...

The other problem essentially I see is what are you putting in the soil? The way I think of it you would need substrate bugs, then leaf litter bugs eating the substrate bugs, if this could work it would be a very effective food chain if there was enough of each and not too many frogs.. 

I have an empty 45g that I'm planning on turning into a viv so maybe I'll try this out in that.

-Andrew


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## Ed

The ratios I keep throwing out that apply here to some extent are calcium to phosphorus and you want those to be between 1 and 2 to 1 however if a variety of invertebrates are provided in conjuction with *sufficient * UVB exposure then the frogs will adjust thier own ratios. 

You wouldn't need leaf litter bugs that are feeding on the soil invertebrates as the direct food source unless they themselves were soil invertebrates as this would disrupt the idea of the calcium and other minerals going from the soil invertebrates to the frogs. The soil *stuck *to the invertebrates can be as important as the soil *in* the invertebrates. 

An occasional (and I mean occasional) sprinkling of a vitamin supplement is probably not going to do any harm other than feed the soil bacteria. Invertebrates are a poor source of vitamins and unless you can specifically supplement them under tightly *controlled* conditions you are not going to be able to adjust the vitamin supplements in them. However I would not recommend adding it in a big sudden slug to the terrarium as this would cause all kinds of unwanted and possibly pathnogenic bacterial growth. 


Ed


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## a hill

Ed said:


> The ratios I keep throwing out that apply here to some extent are calcium to phosphorus and you want those to be between 1 and 2 to 1 however if a variety of invertebrates are provided in conjuction with *sufficient * UVB exposure then the frogs will adjust thier own ratios.
> 
> 
> Ed


Thanks for clearing that up, I believe I was mixing up NKP opposed to Calcium and Phosphorus now that I think about it. With UVB they can adjust their own ratios, that would mean getting a UVB bulb like reptile keepers use?

My other question is how apt a frog to go eating soil bugs? Wouldn't they need to dig for them? I know some frogs dig a lot, but most don't dig much I was under the assumption.

-Andrew


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## Exoticdarts

We just returned from a 300 mile collection and research trip in the temperate rain forests of the Pacific Northwest. We spend just about every other weekend in the deep forest streams of the coastal valley and have found one area to be the most fascinating when it comes to clay and clay based soils. We have been working with this specific site for the past 5 years and found a good portion of its use very beneficial in our tanks and indoor gardening. 
I will include some photos and give a a brief description of each one as we go. We feel certain clays work wonderful in addition to making good invertebrate friendly soils, but is is not going to be for everyone. What works well for one might not work for others. This project has taken 4 years of test and trial in our 3000 watt indoor garden facility. We introduced it into our tanks last year and so far it looks very promising. This is not a miracle soil or top secret mix, but just some notes on how working with your surrounding's can be more beneficial than a store bought product. Just remember that caution must taken when collecting from the outdoors. You must know what the surroundings have gone through in case of chemical usage in the area.


In this photo directly in the water you can see two types of clay, there are actually three but I will only focus on two. The large and small chunks of clay have been submerged for over a week in this part of the stream and when picked up they are still fairly hard. 









This photo is the dark, more sandy clay. It dissolved the fastest when held under the water. When dried and mixed in with our soil, we have had good plant growth.









This clay is the same on the bank and in the water. Under running water it holds up really well. When dried, it gives the soil good texture and feel. The plants and mosses in our tanks love this clay.










This photo to us is the most important. It is what we have been using as a growing and bottom substrate in our tanks and has not shown any signs of breaking down. Some of the smaller pea sizes will break down, but anything larger holds its own when completely submerged for very long periods of time (years). These clay pieces were actually dried clay rocks that had to be smashed with a large rock to break into smaller chunks. 

I will start from left to right. 









(far left)
This is a clay based mineral stone with everything nature could throw in. We have mixed this in the soil of every plant and tank we own. 









(center)
This is more of a clay based stone with a lot less things mixed in.
We use this type as a bottom substrate with soil mix on top. 









(right)
Same as above but lighter in color. It too is used as a bottom substrate layer. 









And finally the main part of what we use as a soil before it is mixed with other ingredients.









This is just some food for thought about clay and its uses.


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## gary1218

SUPER Kevin!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANKS.


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## Corpus Callosum

I did a search on the soilmaster select mentioned above and it is montmorillonite clay.. interesting


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## Ed

a hill said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, I believe I was mixing up NKP opposed to Calcium and Phosphorus now that I think about it. With UVB they can adjust their own ratios, that would mean getting a UVB bulb like reptile keepers use?
> 
> My other question is how apt a frog to go eating soil bugs? Wouldn't they need to dig for them? I know some frogs dig a lot, but most don't dig much I was under the assumption.


Yes it means getting a UVB producing bulb with all of the limitations that come with the bulb or continuing to supplement with a vitamin-mineral mix to insure that the frogs have adequate D3. 

The invertebrates come to the surface and the frogs then feed on them. If the invertebrates are on the calcium containing soil then when they capture the invertebrates they also get soil with the invert (in addition to what is in/on the invert). 

Ed


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## a hill

Thanks Ed, 

One more silly question. Would doing one thing or another only work? I would assume it's fine to have calcium rich substrate then also dust flies and feed them? 

UVB bulbs get hot, but not much difference from lights commonly used. (not T5s though...)

-Andrew


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## Ed

There is an acceptable limit to the amount of calcium in the diet. It actually has one of the narrowest tolerances for a required macronutrient. In excess it causes conditional nutritional deficiencies in other micronutrients like zinc but in this application, you are feeding out a invertebrate (the ffs or crickets) that has a terrible calcium to phosphorus ratio so these insects should be dusted. This is also a significant method to get the D3 into the frogs. The soil invertebrates are also deficient in calcium as the soil in/on/around them is the source of the calcium and the frog has the option to modify its diet to support it Ca metabolic needs so the likelyhood of over supplementation is minimal (particuarly if you include the rate at which the flies groom the flies off). 

Often its better to utilize the UVB as a back up source of calcium than the main source due to the issues with fall off production of UVB over time as well the problems with intensity falling off with distance. 


I just spent 15 hours at work so I may not be the most coherent. 

Ed


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## bbrock

My goodness. I take a brief hiatus and find 4 pages of dirty talk. Oh happy day! This is a great thread with a lot of good info. A lot of things have already been covered but I'll try to address some of the benefits of clay as I see them.

These basically fall under the categories of aesthetics, longevity, and nutrient dynamics. First, red soils look cool and that's all there is to it. As was mentioned, not all tropical soils are red but red soils are kind of a trademark look of the tropics.

Second, longevity. Mineral based soils will last for thousands of years. Their texture gets better with age, not worse. No organic based substrate will do that. Even huge chunks of fairly rot resistant wood will break down in a warm, wet, viv after a few years. I like my vivs to last decades so organic substrates are out.

Finally are nutrient dynamics. Any substrate can be supplemented with calcium etc. but clays tend to bind a release nutrients nicely so they make a good storage and delivery system that provides consistent nutrient availability. Organic substrates, again, break down and become depleted of nutrients over time. Clays get depleted too but they have the ability to be recharged.

I've got a lot more to say but it is late so it will have to wait.


----------



## a hill

Found this in the beginner section...



slaytonp said:


> Most of us don't use UV bulbs with darts due to the fact that the glass enclosed tops filter it out and they are difficult to use safely inside a humid vivarium. There are some acrylics that do allow UV to pass through, but I've never tried them.


Has anyone using a UVB bulb modified their glass top because of it?

Also... Another thing I've thought of, if somehow you could make a small pool in one spot of the viv with this substrate, it could be like a high calcium bath that you wouldn't have to give them just in case.. so theoretically they would like go into it if they needed more calcium... How smart these frogs are I'm not sure. But with what Ed has said about some behaviors they may be smarter than I think.

-Andrew


----------



## Ed

a hill said:


> Found this in the beginner section...
> 
> as anyone using a UVB bulb modified their glass top because of it?
> 
> Also... Another thing I've thought of, if somehow you could make a small pool in one spot of the viv with this substrate, it could be like a high calcium bath that you wouldn't have to give them just in case.. so theoretically they would like go into it if they needed more calcium... How smart these frogs are I'm not sure. But with what Ed has said about some behaviors they may be smarter than I think.
> 
> -Andrew


Yes people have modified thier enclosures to allow for the use of UVB lighting. Do a search for solacryl. 

The problem is having small patches of calcium rich substrate just isn't going to cut it as this is not going to supply sufficient inverts that are modifeid by the substrate. 

It doesn't have to have anything to do with being smart, for example in people you can have a craving for a certain food item which will meet some micronutrient deficiency and not have the wanting part of the craving be under conscious control..... 

Ed


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## a hill

Ed said:


> Yes people have modified thier enclosures to allow for the use of UVB lighting. Do a search for solacryl.
> 
> The problem is having small patches of calcium rich substrate just isn't going to cut it as this is not going to supply sufficient inverts that are modifeid by the substrate.
> 
> It doesn't have to have anything to do with being smart, for example in people you can have a craving for a certain food item which will meet some micronutrient deficiency and not have the wanting part of the craving be under conscious control.....
> 
> Ed


Thanks I'll do a search.

I may have written it wrong, same substrate high in calcium, but have say a small "pool" of water in part of it which should be high in calcium since the substrate is in general.

I used the wrong choice of words, that is exactly what I was thinking. So I assume its generally the same in animals?

-Andrew


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## Ed

I may have missed it since I was getting a light sensitive headache and it was getting hard to read. 

The clays tend to bind up the calcium unless you exchange it with another ion to allow it to be released. This is how the ammonia absorbers that are packaged into the carbon mixtures for fish tanks work (zeolites). Depending on the clay, the calcium may not be readily available in the pool of water as it is bound in the clay, and in those substrates in which it is readily released, they are going to bind up some other cation and could potentially make the pH of the water fairly basic. (and if you add items like tanning to deal with pH you are going to decrease the solubility of the calcium in the water column. 

Absorbtion of calcium cutaneously required the expediture of metabolic energy as there isn't a calorie source being ingested at the same time. I would also suspect that while the frogs can modify thier diets via the nutritonal content of the food items, I am would not be surprised if they are unable to detect calcium concentration to absorb through thier skin.... 

Ed


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## a hill

That makes more sense...

Did that search and came up with lots of good information thanks!

-Andrew


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## Matt Mirabello

*soil recipe part 1*

As promised (although late) here is my soil recipe(s). These are not yet thoroughly tested so please use at your own risk.

Right now I have 2 methods for getting soil into my tanks. The first method involves getting local soil and changing it both by amending it and by applying physical processes.
The IAD display tank and the Lorenzo tinctorius tank I set up last night were made this way.

The IAD tank and the Lorenzo had their soil made in the same way but were set up differently.
The main soils for each of these tanks was composed by starting with local soil, preferably of high clay/silt content and low sand content (this may be difficult for some of you to obtain depending on your location). For the IAD tank I started with a red/orange clay from Staten Island (not sure of the soil type), for the Lorenzo tank I started with soil from my Garden in Ithaca (grayish glacial till soil). It is a composed of Loess (a combination of silt/clay). For both soils I pushed them through a 2 mm screen, it is actually a screen lid from a fish tank (not the fine mesh, the next size up). This is best done when the soil still has moisture but is not wet or really dry. The soil should crumble in your hand when you apply force to it, not deform, and not crack and get powdery. You should form little aggregates in your hand (to me one of the sexiest states a soil can be in). 

After I did this I discarded all of the rocks, roots, and gravel that did not pass through the sieve. I then mixed in some iron oxides (lets say ~1 TBSP per quart/liter of soil). For the Lorenzo tank I used black iron oxide, for the IAD tank I used red and yellow iron oxides. 
Then I sprayed the soil down enough just enough to get it to clump up again. The oxides should be “activated” by the water and get more intense in color and wet/sticky. Mix around the soil until it is uniform. Do it gently, it doesn’t have to be completely homogeneous. Let it sit out and dry until it is crumbly again as mentioned above. Pass this soil through the sieve again. You now have a local soil augmented with iron oxides.
From here on I will describe what I did for each tank separately:

The IAD tank has a soil layer 6.5 cm (2.5 inches) thick. The tank has a false bottom made of eggcrate panel, covered by 7-mesh, then by fine nylon screen, and finally a layer of brown paper towels (which I am sure has rotted out by now). The paper towels prevent the soil from washing through the screen before it has had a chance to settle and develop some structure. The first layer over the towels was a layer of reddish sand (any sand will do) ~1 cm thick. This was then covered by a layer of the soil made earlier, 5.5 cm thick. It was just poured in and moved around lightly with out any hard packing. I put in the plants (mostly just roots and whatever soil they held from the original pot), wood pieces, and logs. I covered the soil with crushed up oak leaves, and then slowly wet the soil by spraying it with a spray bottle. It takes a while but is necessary to wet the soil without causing it to break (similar to gentle rain). The oak leaf pieces protect the soil from the impact of the water and facilitate its infiltration. I add enough water until the false bottom has about 5-10 mm of water in it.
I added 6 neonate canal zone auratus froglets to his tank 2 months after its creation and seeding with springtails. I routinely add kitchen scraps (veggie pieces) and never feed it with flies. The frogs reached full size in less than 3 months! I am not sure if it is due to the arthropod fauna, soil, or both.

The Lorenzo tank is 10 gallons (standard). The soil is 3.6 cm thick composed of 3 layers. The first layer (over the paper towel) is a layer of perlite that was crushed and passed through a 2 mm mesh and then mixed with some soil and iron oxide (1.2 cm thick). The second layer is a mix of 50% augmented soil and 50% ironed perlite (1.2 cm thick) the last layer is just the iron augmented soil (1.2 cm thick). I then covered it with leaves and logs and watered it as mentioned above. This time I also added Styrofoam packing peanuts under the false bottom to act as a surface for biofilm formation to aid in nutrient cycling.
The Lorenzo pair laid eggs within 24 hours of being in this tank!

http://www.frognet.org/gallery/album41

any questions or anything I left out?

The second method is to fabricate a soil from pure ingredients from a pottery company. I have made some soil this way but have yet to “put it to the test” in a tank. Worthy of note though is that the IAD tank did contain a small amount of soil made this way and it looks indistinguishable from the amended soil even after almost 5 months. (will write more on this in the next post)


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## wbeavers

I have been waiting since MWFF to hear this, and you leave me hanging! :roll: My area is not conducive to the first recipe, so I will be eagerly awaiting the second. Thanks, Matt


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## KeroKero

It amuses me every time you call a soil sexy :lol: But then again, who am I to talk? I was the one taking the soil pics in the southwest when you were the one driving the car :roll: Yeah I'm just a little bit nuts too... and omg I want a cutting of that Maranta! I've been looking for the green form of the red prayer plant since I saw it at ABG!!

So... on to the questions. For the lorenzo tank, why the perlite? (This is often spouted to be a froggy no-no, so explain to all who seek your dirty guideness!). Second (long winded) question... in your first tank you mentioned (on DB or FrogNet I don't remember) about how when transporting your tank back from IAD, some water sloshed, and created these pockets in the soil that have become soil critter refugiums. Did you try and create anything like this in the lorenzo tank? Is it worth trying to replicate? I was somewhat tempted to add a layer of EpiWeb to the substrate for this reason, but eventually it would probably get closed off from the surface so I dunno.

I now live on a sand bar, so I need to figure out what to do about the soils.

What is recipe number 2? So mean to tease the DBers like that


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## Matt Mirabello

The perlite is just meant as a way to keep the weight down but still have the soil deep enough for plants to root decently. If weight was not an issue I would just have a 6 inch soil layer in all my tanks! The perlite is under a layer of soil so it should be avoiding frog contact so they can't ingest it. 

The soil in the lorenzo tank did not turn out as deep as I would have liked and the clay aggregates are not staying together as good as I had hoped. Those small tunnels and refugia would best be formed in a soil only tank. Also adding more clay content to my lorenzo soil mix may help (since it is mostly silt).

recipe number 2 coming soon

Matt


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## Matt Mirabello

*Recipe 2*

sorry for the delay. I had the recipe in my Lab (where I make the soil) and kept forgetting to bring it home where I write my frog emails.

This soil recipe makes soils from "scratch," all ingredients you can get from a grocery store and local pottery supply.

here is the general recipe in grams of ingredients and percentages:

kaolinite (EPK) 1100 [58%]
Bentonite (kitty litter) 550 [29%]
Fe Oxide red 70 [4%]
Fe Oxide Yellow 70 [4%]
Al oxide 60 [3%]
sugar 9 [.5%]
cornstarch 9 [.5%]
gelatin 10 [.25%]
soy protein 10 [.25%]
CaCO3 20 [1%] 

This recipe is just based on the soil composition from my study site in Panama. Other recipes will work, that mimic other soils. 

Mix it all together with enough water boiling water to make it like yogurt. Mix very well (egg beater, potato masher, etc) Heat it up in the oven to lightly boiling/bubbling
(be careful it bubbles ans it burns when one pops and lands on you)
you will have a soil type smell in your kitchen from this
mix it up one more time, allow to cool, then allow it to dry.

It should be dry enough to crumble apart with some force but not hard enough to to require a hammer or make dust. 

Pass it through a fine screen (usual reptile screen ~1 mm). 
Take your soil and put it in a container so you can compact it again (yes I know this seems redundant)
At this point you are now compacting all the small pieces into larger pieces that are loosely bound together. You can use a lot of force, like your foot or your body. 
Take the soil out and it should still com apart fairly easily (if your soil was too wet when you started it may just be a big clay lump at this point)
break it apart again and pass it through a larger screen ~2-3 mm.

These small soil balls should now be ready for a frog tank. For variety you could skip the fine screen for some of the soil and just go to the large screen. It would just give you larger tight clay aggregates (harder for roots to penetrate, but still hold water and nutrients at their surface)

any questions?

Matthew Mirabello
Ithaca, NY

Edit - ingredient added to recipe - Oz 1/6/08


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## Corpus Callosum

When using water for the boiling part, are you using tap water or RO?

What is the pH of the soil when it's done? Would it be bad if I wanted to add more calcium carbonate? other than the fact that I'll have to readjust the pH in case it gets too high from it.


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## Matt Mirabello

*EDITTED! (more calcium than I thought)*

The water should not matter. any hardness will be nothing in comparison to the ions in the soil. Unless you suspect your water has high levels of organic contaminants or heavy metals I would not worry about it. (and if your tap water is that bad.... hopefully you are not drinking it)

More calcium is not bad, within reason. Even the amount I prescribed may be enough to buffer it at a higher pH, I added .4% Ca

The soils I work on in the tropics are considered Calcium rich at ~1800 mg/Kg total Ca. that is .18% Ca or the same as adding 9 grams of CaCO3.
I added 2 times that amount.

This also doesn't count Calcium already in the bentonite which already has significant levels in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentonite


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## allanschon

I'd like to try the "from scratch" mixture in an "experimental" tank that I'm working on, but I'm having trouble figuring out how much material to buy...

My tank is roughly 24" x 18", and I'd like a soil layer of about 3". Roughly how much clay/FeO/etc should I buy? I wouldn't mind having a little left over, but I also don't want to have a ton of extra clay sitting around.

Thanks!
Allan.


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## Matt Mirabello

allanschon said:


> My tank is roughly 24" x 18", and I'd like a soil layer of about 3". Roughly how much clay/FeO/etc should I buy?


The bulk density of tropical soil is ~.9-1g/cm3 (undisturbed, uncompacted and dried at 100° C) 
your soil needs would be 21300 cm3 (1300 in3)
that would be 21300 grams of soil (21.3 kg or 46 lbs)

more than you thought it would be I bet!
and this is before the water gets added

I am not sure of the actual bulk density in my tanks is, will try and measure it to get a better number.


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## allanschon

Holy cow! :shock: 

I'm glad I asked; I would have bought 10% of that, and been worried about having too much... Now I understand why you used so much perlite in the lorenzo tank. After adding water, and including the weight of the tank, that would be over 100lbs per tank...

I may have to re-think this... I'm not sure if my shelves will hold that much weight. In fact, I'm not sure if the bottom glass would hold it without cracking... Not to mention that buying that much clay will end up costing more than I spent on the tank... ( I got it second-hand ) 

If I can solve the weight issue, I'll see if I can collect some local soil and amend from there. Do you have any suggestions on where to collect soil to avoid getting too many pollutants?


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## Matt Mirabello

The tank should hold the weight. A 20 gallon high (24L X 12 W X 16 H) will weight 180 lbs just from the water. Not counting gravel that is added too.

Your shelves may be another issue!

My recipe is ~28% bentonite (I just realized i left it off the list!)
this stuff is real cheap (25 lb for $3). the EPK is ~50 cents a lb
the oxides are expensive but you do not need much of them.

As for finding good local soil try to find an area that is not in active agriculture. Even better is to find an organic farm

Matt


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## Matt Mirabello

***REVISED SOIL RECIPE** (forgot an ingredient)*

Not sure how it happened but I left off an ingredient to my "from scratch" soil recipe. If you look the percentages I gave in my initial post do not add up to 100%! Below is the recipe including bentonite:

This soil recipe makes soils from "scratch," all ingredients you can get from a grocery store and local pottery supply.

here is the general recipe in grams of ingredients and percentages:
kaolinite (EPK) 1100 56%
Bentonite (kitty litter) 550 28%
Fe Oxide red 70 4%
Fe Oxide Yellow 70 4%
Al oxide 60 3%
sugar 15 1%
cornstarch 15 1%
gelatin 10 1%
soy protein 10 1%
CaCO3 20 1%


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## allanschon

I wondered about the missing percentage.. 

The thing about the weight that concerns me is that the tank will be lying on it's "side". I've build a front opening door for it, similar to the typical vert conversion. It's a Lizard Lounge from Oceanic, so the glass supporting the substrate weight isn't tempered. In fact, the tank wasn't designed to hold more than a few inches of water in the first place. I only spent $10 for the tank, though, so I'll give it a shot, after I've reinforced the shelving.

I wonder if you could comment on the purpose of the various ingredients. I can imagine that the gelatin, soy protein and corn starch help with structure and texture, and the various oxides and CaCO3 affect pH and mineral content. The sugar, however has me really scratching my head...

Also, after a little thought, I was wondering about the heating stage of the process. When used in cooking, I've always been warned against overheating corn starch, because it allegedly breaks down if heated to boiling. Is that something to worry about, or is the corn starch included for a different purpose entirely?


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## Matt Mirabello

The sugar also helps with aggregate formation acting like glue between clay particles. Much as sugar on the floor will make you stick to it.
The corn starch acts in a similar way tot eh proteins both are long organic molecules that can interact with different clay particles and each other to form clumps (like pudding or Jello).

The corn starch gets activated by boiling water causing it to denature and unravel. Cornstarch is often used as a thickening agent in food but first must be boiled otherwise it does not in that application.

Tropical soil is ~%5 organic matter or less. which is the amount the recipe calls for. However soil is not composed of labile forms of organic matter (like I have listed above). The organic matter in your soil will be rapidly consumed by fungi, bacteria and other soil fauna. The bacteria and fungi will eventually die and their decomposing bodies will form NEW soil organic matter that is less labile and much more diverse. Do not be surprised or worried about mold in the soil. It will pass. you can also decrease the amount of organic matter by half to reduce this further (which I plan to do in future batches).

The oxides role is not entirely understood but they are associated with pseudosanding/microaggregation the oxides seem to interact with other soil cations (Ca, Mg, etc) and soil organic matter to help promote structure. The paradox of tropical soils is that the oxides in them should be leaching out from all the rain... but they don't so something is helping them stay in the soil.

hope this helps

Matt


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## Matt Mirabello

*Error in recipe!*

Guys I found an error in my recipe, I thought I had fixed it. below is the proper percentages:

here is the general recipe in grams of ingredients and percentages:

kaolinite (EPK) 1100 56%
Bentonite (absorbent clay kitty litter) 550 28%
Fe Oxide red 70 4%
Fe Oxide Yellow 70 4%
Al oxide 60 3%
sugar 15 1%
cornstarch 15 1%
gelatin 10 1%
soy protein 10 1%
CaCO3 20 1%


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## Ed

Matt Mirabello said:


> The oxides role is not entirely understood but they are associated with pseudosanding/microaggregation the oxides seem to interact with other soil cations (Ca, Mg, etc) and soil organic matter to help promote structure. The paradox of tropical soils is that the oxides in them should be leaching out from all the rain... but they don't so something is helping them stay in the soil.
> 
> hope this helps
> 
> Matt


Well I am going back a few years to when I worked in a R&D plant with zeolites... 
Zeolites tend to hold and bind cations based on thier pore size and structure (the ammonia absorbing resin in some filter carbons is a different zeolite). Once the positive cations get into the structure the tend to be stable in the mixture. This renders them pretty immobile with in the structure of the zeolite. I would suspect that the bentonite functions similarly as it has a similar structure (it is a aluminium phyllosilicate) but I could also be very wrong as I am going back almost 20 years in my memory for this...). 

Bentonite is also good at picking up and binding organic molecules like protiens from water (which is why it is used in wine making to clear water (and in some koi ponds)). 

Ed


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## Matt Mirabello

Ed said:


> I would suspect that the bentonite functions similarly as it has a similar structure (it is a aluminium phyllosilicate) but I could also be very wrong as I am going back almost 20 years in my memory for this...).
> Ed


This is like saying a turpene is similar to an octane since they are both hydrocarbons.



Ed said:


> Zeolites tend to hold and bind cations based on thier pore size and structure (the ammonia absorbing resin in some filter carbons is a different zeolite). Once the positive cations get into the structure the tend to be stable in the mixture. This renders them pretty immobile with in the structure of the zeolite.
> Ed


Exactly! the cations get trapped in the Zeolite. With bentonite the cations are bound to it through coulombic attraction (electrostatics). They otherwise have very different structures (see wikipedia). One has an open porous structure the other is in sheets or layers.


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## Ed

There is also columbic attraction as well.. hey.. its been a long time since I had anything to do with that stuff... and of course it shows.... 

Do you mean terpene? 

and one other oddity comment.. one of the major uses for silicates is filtering all of the items in Mass produced American beer so it all tastes the same and all batches taste the same... 

Ed


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## Matt Mirabello

Ed said:


> Do you mean terpene? Ed


I did mean Terpene, I shortened turpentine (not realizing it was spelled differently)

It has been many years since I took organic chemistry and now mostly deal with inorganic chemistrer y, especially the complex world of mineral soil/rocks
Organic material is important to soil, but far more complex than any intro organic chemistry course


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## bbrock

I've posted this elsewhere but I have come to believe that clay-based substrates will turn out to be the next major advancement in pdf husbandry. The biggests advantages I'm seeing (other tha it being permanent) is that it promotes a robust and diverse microfauna plus making calcium and other nutrients available to froglets independent of dusting. After switching to this type of substrate, I've been consistently rearing an average of one or more pumilio froglets inside the natal vivarium, with no additional care from me, from a single adult pair. So far this summer this tank has morphed 10 froglets to adult size since May. I can't attribute all of this to the substrate, but I've become absolutely convinced that the substrate is a major contributor.


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## sports_doc

I may have to comb this exhausted thread again, but Brent what is your clay-based soil recommendations? Recipe.

products to try? {I'm using only the Shultz product and 'play sand' in my mix currently}

quick thoughts on LECA alone? My first thought is it is too porous, too rough, too much "air" spaces to provide a natural mix of biologicals/bacteria. I havent used it in years.

thanks

Shawn


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## bbrock

sports_doc said:


> I may have to comb this exhausted thread again, but Brent what is your clay-based soil recommendations? Recipe.
> 
> products to try? {I'm using only the Shultz product and 'play sand' in my mix currently}


I keep thinking I might mix up a bulk batch of this and sell it but that doesn't look likely anytime soon so here it is. I stress though that this is still a product in development and I do intend to refine it if possible. Kyle, Ron, and a couple others have experimented with this mix as well so they may be able to provide testimonials, good or bad. Also check out Matt's recipe in the redart clay thread as his recipe is much more faithful to creating real tropica pseudosand.

*Dirty Old Man Performance Substrate*

_Mix 2-3 parts Redart clay with 1 part local soil (I collect mine from under conifers to get a good mycorrhizal inoculation) [edit: beware of chytrid! Use sterile topsoil if in doubt]. Add just enough sharp sand to be able to tell it is there. Add about 1/4 to 1/2 cup hydrated lime to 2 gallons of soil mix. Mix it all up. A cement mixer would be ideal but I use a paint mixer attached to a drill. Slowly add water while stirring until the mix is evenly damp and clumps up into pea sized and smaller aggregates. Spread the mix out in the sun on a piece of burlap or similar and let it dry. Dilute some acrylic mortar fortifier about 10:1 with water (so it is really thin and diluted). Spray down the dried mix with the solution to thoroughly dampen it. Let it dry and repeat the spraying. Let it dry again. Sprinkle a little more lime over the mix and stir it in. It is ready to use. If you want to get really picky, sieve the mix through a 1/4" mesh. I didn't and just broke up the largest chunks by pinching them._

A common question is, "what is the pH?" and I don't know. That's something I hope to address in future iterations but since I grow most viv plants epiphytically, the pH is not that important to me so long as it is not too acidic or caustic to the frogs. I can say that plant roots do grow in this stuff though, as mine is infused with fine roots along the surface.



> quick thoughts on LECA alone? My first thought is it is too porous, too rough, too much "air" spaces to provide a natural mix of biologicals/bacteria. I havent used it in years.
> 
> thanks
> 
> Shawn


One thing I do think LECA is good at is drying out tanks a bit. I think we (and I include myself) tend to keep our frogs in overly wet conditions. LECA seems great for providing dry areas. So many of the substrates we use wick a lot of water so they end up like a constantly damp sponge. I'm not sure that is the best thing for the frogs.


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## gary1218

bbrock said:


> *Dirty Old Man Performance Substrate*
> 
> _Mix 2-3 parts Redart clay with 1 part local soil (I collect mine from under conifers to get a good mycorrhizal inoculation) [edit: beware of chytrid! Use sterile topsoil if in doubt]. Add just enough sharp sand to be able to tell it is there. Add about 1/4 to 1/2 cup hydrated lime to 2 gallons of soil mix. Mix it all up. A cement mixer would be ideal but I use a paint mixer attached to a drill. Slowly add water while stirring until the mix is evenly damp and clumps up into pea sized and smaller aggregates. Spread the mix out in the sun on a piece of burlap or similar and let it dry. Dilute some acrylic mortar fortifier about 10:1 with water (so it is really thin and diluted). Spray down the dried mix with the solution to thoroughly dampen it. Let it dry and repeat the spraying. Let it dry again. Sprinkle a little more lime over the mix and stir it in. It is ready to use. If you want to get really picky, sieve the mix through a 1/4" mesh. I didn't and just broke up the largest chunks by pinching them._


Hmmmmm................I think I'll wait till you make up a batch to sell. Please put me at the top of the list


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## housevibe7

Brent - What if we waited too long and there is no longer any sun? :roll: Are we doomed to wait until next summer to have this made up? Would putting it in the oven on warm do the trick? Not hot enough to pseudo-fire, but just warm enough to get the water to evaporate?


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## kyle1745

I have this now in 3-4 tanks and so far it works very well. It still baffles my mind how different it acts compared to soil, moss, or anything I have tried. First it seems to dry quickly but yet is still moist. The leaves over it dry rather fast and do not seem to brake down as fast. So far the frogs are doing well on it and as stated it seems to promote a good balance of critters.

Now the only negative I have is that it can be a royal pain to make. I have been thinking about renting or buying a small cement mixer to try to make a larger batch, but have not had the time. As for the drying I use 3 mid sized rubber maid containers which I then place a window fan over. I use this to dry it over night then repeat the fortifier and drying. Getting it into smaller granuals can also be tough but again so far its working well.

One modification I have is that I am using coco bedding in place of local soil as I do not have a place that I trust to be clean.


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## Ed

For those concerned about adding chytrid there are seed mycorrhizal products available through some venues. Just do a search for them. 

Ed


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## bbrock

Sarah,
The first batch of this I made was during the winter in my garage. It is really just a drying process so heat isn't important. That step is just to get the clay to a point where you can break it into aggregates of about the right size before treating with the acrylic. Of course you are welcome to come over and mix up a batch in our garage anytime. Just bring some of that delicious antelope! ;-)

And Ed beat me to the mycorrhizal products. The natural soil adds two things to the mix. The first is seed cultures of arthropods (some of which might even establish), the second are the mycorrhizae. A good compost bin and a Burlese funnel can give you the arthropods, and the spores that Ed discusses would do the rest. However, I've read a bit on how these spore products are produced and there might still be a chance of introducing chytrid... maybe. From what I've read, these spores are produced by mixing natural soil into pot cultures with plants that make good mycorrhizae hosts. Then they subject the pots to some drying treatments that stimulate the fungi to produce lots of spores. Then the sift the pot medium and package it up. So if chytrid has a resting spore that can survive these treatments.... I still think it is worth the very slight risk though. Mycorrhizae help glue the clay particles together to form natural texture. The idea of this mix is that by the time the acrylic breaks down, the microbial activity in the soil will have taken over the job of holding aggregates together. I add earthworms to mine as well.


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## hopalong

So are you saying that my orchid mixture w/ added peat moss, sand, and sphagnum isn't good? Where does someone get hydrated lime? Acrylic mortor fortifyer can be found at Lowe's right? Sharp sand? I have regular play sand, will that work? I'm not setting up more than 2 tanks at a time, that sounds like a lot of mixture to store...

Thoughts?


----------



## Ed

I haven't messed with Brent's mixture yet (but have tried some other clay mixtures) but am gearing up to do so... 
I have some 15 extra highs, and 20 gallons I want to set-up as well as a 90 gallon front opening cube... (but the cube is probably a couple of years away). 
I was talking a little with Matt and speculated that a mixer like a kitchen aid with a dough hook might (I stress might) be able to mix small batches of the clay. I been looking at flea markets and yard sales but haven't found an inexpensive one to try it out with yet... (If someone does let me know how it works). 
If you spread the soil/clay admixture out onto several sheets of newspaper or another wickable surface it will help with the drying (old towels maybe). 

Ed


----------



## kyle1745

A paint mixer, the ones that go on a drill works, but it is still tough. Make sure you have a good drill as its a good bit of load. This is what I have used in my 3 batches I have made. Its not too bad to make 2 gallons or so at a time, but i would like to make a much larger batch. I have a 30gal cube id like to find time to work on and it will need a good bit of it.

I bought the lime on amazon as I was unable find the exact stuff locally. I was rather cheap so not a big deal.

One key that I have found as well is to add water very slowly as it is easy to add too much and then you end up with larger aggregates than you may want.

I currently have 2 15gals and a 10 gal with the mix and they are holding up very well, actually amazingly well. With other substrates I get dead ff build up rather quick and frog waste build up, but with this it looks about the same as the day I put it in.


----------



## housevibe7

bbrock said:


> Sarah,
> The first batch of this I made was during the winter in my garage. It is really just a drying process so heat isn't important. That step is just to get the clay to a point where you can break it into aggregates of about the right size before treating with the acrylic. Of course you are welcome to come over and mix up a batch in our garage anytime. Just bring some of that delicious antelope! ;-)


You got it


----------



## bbrock

Ditto what Kyle said. I used a paint mixer on a drill. A 1/2" drill is best but I've got a powerful 3/8" that does the job. Start mixing the stuff dry and pour the water slowly as Kyle suggests, while you have the drill running at a pretty good clip. Make sure you are plugged into a GFCI outlet since water and electric motors aren't good company. You want to get it just to the point where it is clumping into sand to gravel sized clumps.

Sarah, was it you who suggested a different type of lime? I picked mine up at a local hardware store. Lime is commonly used as a soil ammendment to adjust pH so check the lawn care department.

Sharp sand is just coarse sand. Play sand is usually too fine to be of much good. All purpose sand is usually okay. The sand is mainly for aesthetics since the finished product has really good drainage without the sand. I used a sample of Panama soil that Matt provided as my model and it had a few sand grains sprinkled in it. Here's a picture, the real Panama soil is on the right:


----------



## bbrock

hopalong said:


> So are you saying that my orchid mixture w/ added peat moss, sand, and sphagnum isn't good?
> 
> Thoughts?


Nothing wrong with that mix. That is more similar to what most people use. But I do think as more people start experimenting with these clay-based mixes, they are going to become much more common. They are heavy and a pain to mix up, but those are the only disadvantages I've found (actually, I don't rank heavy as a disadvantage but some do). But bear in mind that these soils are just about the exact opposite of what horticulturists recommend so plants behave differently in them. But vivaria ain't no gardens and we shouldn't treat them as such ;-)


----------



## housevibe7

bbrock said:


> Sarah, was it you who suggested a different type of lime? I picked mine up at a local hardware store. Lime is commonly used as a soil ammendment to adjust pH so check the lawn care department.


Yeah, I think I had just been curious about using calcium carbonate or a different source of lime as opposed to hydrated lime, which I believe is pulverized limestone. I'm not sure if it would make a bit of difference. Although I wonder if there is any particular form of it that is more readily consumed and retained by the isopods. That would be an interesting experiment for someone to try that had access to the ability to measure calcium levels in isopods raised in different lime bearing soils.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

I believe hydrated lime is calcium hydroxide while agricultural lime is the pulverized calcium carbonate.


----------



## housevibe7

Hmmm... I actually looked at my bag of hydrated lime this morning and it says "Derived from ground limestone" What is limestone predominately? Calcium carbonate?.... I'll bet we could ask Dr. Dirt.


----------



## SeaDuck

Calcium hydroxide is typically made from ground limestone (Calcium carbonate). When it is heated in a kiln it decomposes into Calcium oxide and that is hydrated with water to form Calcium hydroxide. 

Now that said I wonder if the whole process could be simplified by the addition of #2 portland to the dry mix vs. the addition of hydrated line and the mortar fortifier. For years water gardeners have been using a soil cement mixture to cover the edges of pond liners.

Robert


----------



## bbrock

Don't quote me, but I believe hydrated lime is used to treat soils because it is more reactive and helps to bind soil particles together to improve tilth. Here's the Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_hydroxide

My guess is that for our purposes, either kind will work. I'll have to say that in the future I may switch to CaCO3 because it seems like a less energy intensive process to produce.

I think if you used portland, you would loose all of the clay properties which are really what we are after. The properties of the end result of the mix I'm using are that you get sand sized particles that drain freely, but when wet, the aggregates are sticky like clay. You can easily pinch them and they break into slippery clay. So they act like both a sand, and a clay at the same time. It took quite a bit of experimenting to get the mixture right to retain these properties. Too much acrylic and you might as well just use sand in the vivarium. The main purpose of the lime is actually to boost the amount of available calcium in the soil as a nutrient supplement for the frogs. I'd just be afraid that portland might be going overboard and you might wind up with a caustic mess. Of course, the only way to know would be to experiment. I do want to remind folks that the thread on redart clay substrates is worth checking out since Matt posted his recipe for pseudo-sand which is a more faithful replication of the real deal. Mine is more of a lazy shortcut.


----------



## allanschon

hopalong said:


> So are you saying that my orchid mixture w/ added peat moss, sand, and sphagnum isn't good?


At this stage clay based substrate is more experimental than "better". Several people have tried it, and had good results, but if you're happy with the performance of your current mix, then stick with it, unless you're an experimenter at heart. 

I have a mix based on Matt's about half done, and I'll attest to the amount of work it is to get mixed and broken into aggregate. I live in an apartment, and don't own much in the way of power tools, so I'm screening the mixture as it dries to the correct consistency. Based on the amount of work it's been, I'll have to REALLY like the results to do it again. 

On the other hand, maybe I can use the substrate as a throttle limiter to prevent me from buying too many frogs.


----------



## kyle1745

One thing worth noting is that some of the early findings on the clay based substrates may indicated a major flaw in our keeping practices. I agree it is too early to make any concrete statements but some of the early pumilio benefits described could be the missing link to many issues with them in captivity. 

I personally feel that a number of the common substrates including sphagnum are not adequate. Some time ago I switched a number of my tanks to jungle mix which has held up a good deal better than sphagnum, but the clay so far seems to be a whole level above that. 

I have also tested an aquarium clay based product with rather poor results. It did not hold well and too much residue. Im sure it was a great product under water.

This is not to say other options do not work, but some of the "standards" may be less than ideal.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

kyle1745 said:


> I have also tested an aquarium clay based product with rather poor results. It did not hold well and too much residue. Im sure it was a great product under water.


I had similar (poor) results with the laterite I tested. The fluorite is holding up well, but I don't like it enough to use it again. I have some of Matt's recipe made that I'm testing, but would like to try Brent's recipe as well.


----------



## housevibe7

I'm really hoping to mix some of this up here sooner rather than later, I'm sure my husband would love to get the 20 lb bag of redart clay and the bag of hydrated lime out of the living room :roll:


----------



## iljjlm

Here is a link to a page on rainforest soils.
http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502.htm
The article starts out by talking about how and why the soils are poor in nutrients.

"three-fourths of the Amazonian rainforest can be considered "wet-deserts" in that they grow on red and yellow clay-like laterite soils which are acidic and low in nutrients." 

It goes on and explains that the trees and plants have roots that are shallow, which help to absorb the nutrients from the top layers.

"Since the first six to eight inches (15-20 cm) of soil is a compost of decaying leaves, wood, and other organic matter, it is the richest source of nutrients on the ground." 
"Many tropical species have roots that actually grow out of the ground to form a mat on the forest floor in order to more efficiently collect nutrients. These tiny roots form a network that, along with the mycorrhizae fungi, rapidly absorb nutrients."

So a question I have is: If we use these clay based soils should we also have a small layer of organic matter on top for nutrients/isopods/springtails etc?


----------



## kyle1745

Leaf litter, leaf litter, leaf litter....


----------



## Matt Mirabello

iljjlm said:


> Here is a link to a page on rainforest soils.
> http://rainforests.mongabay.com/0502.htm
> The article starts out by talking about how and why the soils are poor in nutrients.


The article has some good information but wikipedia has an equally good cited article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainforest
"Despite the growth of vegetation in a rainforest, the actual quality of the soil is often quite poor. Rapid bacterial decay prevents the accumulation of humus." 


iljjlm said:


> "Since the first six to eight inches (15-20 cm) of soil is a compost of decaying leaves, wood, and other organic matter, it is the richest source of nutrients on the ground."
> "Many tropical species have roots that actually grow out of the ground to form a mat on the forest floor in order to more efficiently collect nutrients. These tiny roots form a network that, along with the mycorrhizae fungi, rapidly absorb nutrients."


This is true but makes it sound as if the plants grow roots into the decaying plant material. This is not the case in most of the tropical rainforests. It may happen in the case of decaying trees, but for most of the floor space int he forest it is covered by just fallen leaves (and flowers and fruit depending on season). It is however very typical in other forests, particularly temperate and boreal forests (without earth worms). 



iljjlm said:


> So a question I have is: If we use these clay based soils should we also have a small layer of organic matter on top for nutrients/isopods/springtails etc?


Actually if you read back to the inception of this concept, or even perhaps just this thread, the original idea was the leaves being present. The mineral soil was added as a way for the arthropods decomposing the plant material to get a better calcium balance (among other things). Together it is meant to better mimic a natural system. The importance comes int he soil and the leaves. The interface of the soil and the decaying leaves is an important junction. In some systems it is a fairly discrete line, other times the macroinvertebrates actually mix the two layers making it hard to say where one begins and the other ends.


----------



## iljjlm

> Actually if you read back to the inception of this concept, or even perhaps just this thread, the original idea was the leaves being present.


Yeah I remembered that somewhere in this thread someone mentioned another post about redart clay. I have read that thread now and it makes sense. I guess you could add a <1 cm layer of organic matter between the leaf litter, but over time doing nothing will provide the same results. Good things do come to those who wait.

-Dave


----------



## bbrock

I can tell you that the roots do react as you would hope too. The viv I've had the clay soil in longest has formed an increasingly dense network of roots on the soil surface and just beneath the leaf litter layer. Another thing I've notices is that it doesn't seem to build a humus layer. Leaves break down, and you can always find stuff in various stages of decomposition, but when you peel back the rotting leaves, you find roots and soil and lots of critters squirming around. I don't know if it will build humus over time (which I rather hope it doesn't), or if there is some mechanism that prevents it from forming. I always guessing in the tropics that there was just so much competition that even humic acid was consumed quickly. Any idea Matt?


----------



## Corpus Callosum

iljjlm said:


> I guess you could add a <1 cm layer of organic matter between the leaf litter


Just to clarify.. leaf litter _is_ the organic matter, or at least one type (so you don't need to add 'organic matter' between the leaf litter.. just the leaf litter will be fine).


----------



## iljjlm

I understand that leaf litter _is_ organic matter. I was just thinking of something a little more broken down. 

I have a very limited understanding of the dynamics of rainforest soils. When I have been hiking through both primary and secondary tropical rainforests I am usually looking at the flora and fauna not the soil. From what I do remember the layers above the clay had a 5 to 6in layer of humus on them. Where we would hike where there was no humus it would be next to a stream/river, so obviously there would be no buildup. The clay/substrate here looked very compacted. Again like I said a very limited observation of the substrate.

In the tanks that I will be building up I will use just leaf litter over Brent's "Dirty Old Man Performance Subsstrate". Within time a layer of humus might or might not build up. 

-Dave


----------



## Matt Mirabello

*Glomalin*

Just wanted to post an update with some ideas for the soil mix, though I have not tried them yet. They incorporate ideas that Brent and Ed have already mentioned.
My recipe calls for 5% organic matter, labile organic matter. Organic material that bacteria and fungi readily consume in soil. The result is that the soil mix gets moldy! This is not a bad thing however. Certain arbuscular micorhizae fungi produce an organic material that is excellent for holding soil together. It is estimated to be ~1/3 of all soil organic matter. It is protein and sugar based but surprisingly resistant to decay (though it is documented to decay faster in warm environments). 

Using the soil recipe and inoculating it with fungi spores could help glomalin formation and aid in structure of the soil so it does not turn to sticky clay.

It is also stabilized/tighly associated with iron cations, another ingredient in the soil mix.

In January I will try some experiments with this


----------



## sports_doc

gary1218 said:


> bbrock said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Dirty Old Man Performance Substrate*
> 
> _Mix 2-3 parts Redart clay with 1 part local soil (I collect mine from under conifers to get a good mycorrhizal inoculation) [edit: beware of chytrid! Use sterile topsoil if in doubt]. Add just enough sharp sand to be able to tell it is there. Add about 1/4 to 1/2 cup hydrated lime to 2 gallons of soil mix. Mix it all up. A cement mixer would be ideal but I use a paint mixer attached to a drill. Slowly add water while stirring until the mix is evenly damp and clumps up into pea sized and smaller aggregates. Spread the mix out in the sun on a piece of burlap or similar and let it dry. Dilute some acrylic mortar fortifier about 10:1 with water (so it is really thin and diluted). Spray down the dried mix with the solution to thoroughly dampen it. Let it dry and repeat the spraying. Let it dry again. Sprinkle a little more lime over the mix and stir it in. It is ready to use. If you want to get really picky, sieve the mix through a 1/4" mesh. I didn't and just broke up the largest chunks by pinching them._
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmmmm................I think I'll wait till you make up a batch to sell. Please put me at the top of the list
Click to expand...



Here's what we should do Gary, get the NE/NY frog groups together somewhere this Spring, have all the supplies pre-purchase. And on a nice sunny Sat we make up monster batches with a rented cement mixer. Enough for all to go home with a 5gal pale full.

Add frog talk, BBQ and liquid refreshments and its a Dirty Old Man Party!


----------



## kyle1745

I am not sure how much a larger cement mixer would work. I sure would be interested in the results.


----------



## bbrock

kyle1745 said:


> I am not sure how much a larger cement mixer would work. I sure would be interested in the results.


How come? I thought a cement mixer would be just the ticket for mixing up large batches. You've had about as much experience making this stuff as me so I'm interested in what it was about our experiences that led us to different conclusions. Throw in enough liquid refreshments and nobod will care if it works or not. For the record though, I think it is just plain wrong to have a Dirty Old Man party without the Dirty Old Man ;-)


----------



## gary1218

sports_doc said:


> Here's what we should do Gary, get the NE/NY frog groups together somewhere this Spring, have all the supplies pre-purchase. And on a nice sunny Sat we make up monster batches with a rented cement mixer. Enough for all to go home with a 5gal pale full.
> 
> Add frog talk, BBQ and liquid refreshments and its a Dirty Old Man Party!


The van is all gased up and ready to go. Just let me know where and when and I'll pick up Aaron & Oz along the way. I'm always ready for a FIELD TRIP


----------



## Matt Mirabello

bbrock said:


> I always guessing in the tropics that there was just so much competition that even humic acid was consumed quickly. Any idea Matt?


Brent, sorry i did not reply earlier, just saw your post now. In the same reserve where I do my research another researcher is looking at the importance of leaf litter. Some plots get their leaf litter completely removed and then moved to another plot. So for 5+ years some forest soils have had no leaf litter input and others have had double (and controls). The plots with more leaves take longer for them to break down, but they do eventually break down, no humus forming yet!

This is a lowland tropical forest. No comment for highland forest soils that are also nutrient rich. I was in El Valle de Anton and it seemed like organic matter in the soil was more persistent. This could be more a function of the rich volcanic soil than the lower seasonal temperatures.


----------



## 41714049

In the case of organic matter under the leaves I usually provide several layers to a newly built tank to create a layer of composted leaves really quickly. Simply place a layer of maple leaves about 1" thick and a layer of oak/beech on top (also 1"). The maple breaks down very quickly (for me about a week or 2 with misting and springtails). But the oak breaks down slower. Eventually you just add more oak when the previous oak deteriorates. This quickly creates a nice more natural layer of decomposing leaves that get more broken down the deeper you go. Even if you add leaves it will take a long time for a considerable thickness to build up... usually years and years due to plants and bugs gobbling up the nutrients.


----------



## kyle1745

The reason I am unsure about a larger mixer is that I have used a smaller paint mixer and it was hard to get the smaller sized chunks. I would expect a larger mixer to simply roll the mix like dough, and thus have a harder time getting small chunks.


----------



## Ed

You just might have to run it longer... A paint mixer is made to work with a different textured product (more liquid) while this sort of mixer is made to work with a much denser product. 

One of the alternatives I considered was seeing if I could pick up a small stand mixer and use the bread hook attachment for it as this was designed to work with thick sticky mixes. (but it would be strictly small batch). 
There are scale up sized mixers that do the same thing... 

Ed


----------



## kyle1745

Please let us know if you try it. I was thinking about buying a small electric one, but since I have not had the time to make more I have not.

Adding the water slowly is the key with my setup and its not too bad, but does take some time.


----------



## stchupa

One question to either Matt or Brent:

Why no volcanic rock? I assume this includes such things as pumice?


----------



## bbrock

stchupa said:


> One question to either Matt or Brent:
> 
> Why no volcanic rock? I assume this includes such things as pumice?


Matt can answer this question better than I but it seems that tropical soils of volcanic origin are much more fertile and just plain different from the clay pseudo-sands we are going for. But most of that fertility comes from ash rather than pumice I believe. 

My mix came from just trying to replicate the look and feel of a single sample of Panamanian soil that Matt was kind enough to share. I'm sure there are other ways to create an "authentic" tropical substrate. Of course sharp edges of pumice might be too abbrasive for frogs but I'm sure there are frogs out there somewhere hopping happily over volcanic rock.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

stchupa said:


> Why no volcanic rock? I assume this includes such things as pumice?


do you mean volcanic rock as in Lava rock (lots of air spaces and pores) or do you mean soil of [recent] volcanic origin?



bbrock said:


> My mix came from just trying to replicate the look and feel of a single sample of Panamanian soil that Matt was kind enough to share. I'm sure there are other ways to create an "authentic" tropical substrate.


On a side note that Panamanian soil is a bit different than how it was originally classified in the literature. It is an Ultisol not an Oxisol (yet to be keyed out... but maybe I will give it a try). The main difference between the two is the oxide content, base saturation (amount of mineral cations), and some minerology. (all of which relate to age which relates to weathering). So the Panama soil may have more in common with the red soils of the southeast united states than the amazon. 

Here is a link to a soil map of the:

World:
http://www.wv.nrcs.usda.gov/news/images ... osterw.jpg
United States:
http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/land/lgif/m4025l.gif
South America:
http://culter.colorado.edu/~kittel/soil ... rd_umn.jpg


----------



## stchupa

Matt Mirabello said:


> do you mean volcanic rock as in Lava rock (lots of air spaces and pores) or do you mean soil of [recent] volcanic origin?


That's what I'm asking you, which type of volcanic rock not to use and why not use it?


----------



## Matt Mirabello

stchupa said:


> That's what I'm asking you, which type of volcanic rock not to use and why not use it?


The general theme of this thread lately has been the importance of soil, leaves and microarthropods and how that relates to better nutrient balance of the food for the frogs (diversity of organic compounds and a better mineral content). 

Lava rock is very porous. If the bubbles are not isolated within the rocks crystal structure the arthropods can live in it and have a safe habitat away from predation by frogs. The lava rock/pumice will do little to add to the mineral content of the arthropods until the rock itself starts to break down which could take decades to centuries depending on conditions. 
As Brent mentioned in his post volcanic rock has a high glass content and there could be sharp edges that could hurt the frogs (however neither of us has specific data to say if that will or will not happen).


----------



## rozdaboff

I saw this and wondered if it would be a commercial alternative to some of the homemade mixes.

Clay burrowing substrate

Has anyone seen this product in person?


----------



## Ed

An inexpensive source for red art can be found here 

http://www.baileypottery.com/

Ed


----------



## rozdaboff

At least in the product description - it seems like the burrowing substrate has some structure to it - which if I have followed the discussions correctly is important for allowing the microfauna to become established.

In the recipes posted, the most time intensive part is giving the structure to the clay-based substrate. So I was wondering if this product would allow that step to be bypassed.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

It might be worth a try, it all depends how it holds up while wet. It is meant for desert tanks. 

Likewise if you can find out some of their production methods it might be an easier way to make small aggregates after mixing a batch or soil. 

I will talk to the soil science folks here at Cornell and see what they recommend. Can anyone think of any "ball/sphere" like products on the market and how they may be mass produced?
Tapioca pearls?
Candy?


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Ed said:


> http://www.baileypottery.com/


They also have pretty much every other ingredient in Matt's recipe if anyone was interested in replicating it. I think they're about 2 hours north of me, going to have to drive up one of these days and pick up a batch to work with.


----------



## bbrock

Would it be possible to merge the last part of the husbandry improvement thread in the Science board into here? Seems there are two parallel threads running. The burrowing substrate looks interesting. You are right Oz that the labor is in putting structure back into the clay. It is my understanding that redart clay as it is found at the mine is pretty much what we want in our vivs. Then after they have pulverized and powdered it to make it a useful product for pottery, we jump through all kinds of hoops to try to put it back the way it was in nature! The things we do for frogs....


----------



## Matt Mirabello

bbrock said:


> It is my understanding that redart clay as it is found at the mine is pretty much what we want in our vivs.


Any way to contact one of these quarries/mines and try and get a special order? Even if it is 3-4 times the price it is worth it (but we won't tell them that right away)

Matt


----------



## bbrock

Matt Mirabello said:


> bbrock said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is my understanding that redart clay as it is found at the mine is pretty much what we want in our vivs.
> 
> 
> 
> Any way to contact one of these quarries/mines and try and get a special order? Even if it is 3-4 times the price it is worth it (but we won't tell them that right away)
> 
> Matt
Click to expand...

It has been a couple years since I researched redart but I don't recall being able to find the specific mines. I believe I do remember that it comes from a couple of mines in the US mostly which are deposits of ancient tropical soil. Probably with some digging on the net, we might be able to find it. 

Of course if we are able to obtain usable product straight from mine, that would spell the end of the Dr. Dirt, and Dirty Old Man franchises :wink:


----------



## sports_doc

rozdaboff said:


> I saw this and wondered if it would be a commercial alternative to some of the homemade mixes.
> 
> Clay burrowing substrate
> 
> Has anyone seen this product in person?


Wonder if wet this becomes a brick?

if mixed dry into current media mixes (thinking the coco, fir bark, charcoal, tree firn mixes) might this ADD some additional beneficial minerals, and perhaps 'structure'?

S


----------



## rozdaboff

I will work on getting all of the pertinent info into a "Ultimate Clay-based Soil" thread. (I started splitting posts from the Science section thread (there are a lot to split out) - but had to step out to finish an experiment - and the session reset.... :evil: )


----------



## bbrock

One other thing I'm not sure has been mentioned about clay-based substrates but the comment about things turning into bricks reminded me. One a clay-based substrate is placed in a viv, it should be left alone. Once it becomes wet, the aggregate structure is rather fragile so you want to minimize any digging around or otherwise disturbing it. I tend not to plant plants directly into the substrate but do toss clippings onto its surface and allow them to root. It's also nice to have a self seeding plant or two in the viv which sprout readily in the clay substrate and give the viv the natural look of successional processes in a forest.


----------



## Ben E

ok so i have been a bit late reading these posts but i like what i am reading...a while back i built this tank which i had posted previously 








followed by a smaller false back wall tank employing the same idea...








i utilized sodium bentonite mixed with calcium bentonite, native soil and some organics as my sculpting material, and the compost pile was continually amended with bone meal and calcium carbonate which is done with basic garden composting.....i am trying to understand why a deep clay based soil bed is needed. Maybe I missed it in the posts, but the weight and space allocation seems to be a pretty strong negative unless it is really necessary. Also, if i am reading correctly, the most productive zone for calcium influenced microfauna is the interface between the mineral based soil and organic food/refugia zones, so instead of trying to duplicate an actual horizontal physical/ecological soil profile (which is not very efficient when trying to shrink working ecologies) maybe some sort of a false wall lattice work of compost and mineral based soil, or even a peletized mineral based soil additive to a compost section may be more productive per volume....i really wish i could have kept my compost tanks running longer and I think that I am finally to a point where i will begin working on one soon, finances permitting  I will surely change a good number of things that i had previously done and this is a great source of information that i didnt previously have... keep up the good work...great read


----------



## bbrock

It's about time you joined us here Ben! This thread has gone so long I don't remember what was said about clay substrate depth. But I know anything I wrote was only considering non-compost vivs. So without a false back or other composting/refugia, a few inches of clay substrate provides escape depth and a moisture reservoir that the invertebrates can migrate in and out of to sustain a population. And because it is mineral based, it is permenant and won't break down in our life times. That's pretty much the goal I'm after - permanence. I want vivaria that can last 10+ years without having to be broken down. I doubt a living mineral-based substrate will ever be able to match the secondary production (the biomass of non-plant species produced) of an organic rich compost. So it is a trade-off.

Weight is never a consideration to me because I don't tend to move vivs around. And the heaviest viv is still lighter than an aquarium of the same size.


----------



## sports_doc

http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/sand_gravel3.htm

I recent purchased some of this to try. Seems "similar" to the Schultz Aquatic plant soil I've been using...

To start I was planning on adding it to the ABG mix I'm currently using as a base substrate.

Thoughts?

[sorry if this product has already come up in this thread someplace]

S


----------



## bbrock

sports_doc said:


> http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/sand_gravel3.htm
> 
> I recent purchased some of this to try. Seems "similar" to the Schultz Aquatic plant soil I've been using...
> 
> To start I was planning on adding it to the ABG mix I'm currently using as a base substrate.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> [sorry if this product has already come up in this thread someplace]
> 
> S


I think this stuff would work well. In fact, my quest for the perfect substrate started on the planted aquaria lists where I found Schultz and then a very lengthy and well researched discussion about laterite and redart clay. This took me to redart clay as an inexpensive base for building a substrate along with much of Matt's expertise sprinkled in. IOW, my recipe is a tightwad's solution to get something similar to these aquarium substrates.

Whoops, just read the description more carefully and if I'm not mistaken, I think this is quite a bit different from Schultz. I think Schultz is clay-based while this Flora Base is from volcanic ash. My guess is that it would work fine but will tend to be more nutrient rich. A property that I don't want in my vivs.


----------



## flyangler18

> IOW, my recipe is a tightwad's solution to get something similar to these aquarium substrates.


Absolutely nothing wrong with that! 

I've been reading through this thread with some interest, and I'll have to experiment with these new substrates at some stage....


----------



## sports_doc

bbrock said:


> Whoops, just read the description more carefully and if I'm not mistaken, I think this is quite a bit different from Schultz. *I think Schultz is clay-based while this Flora Base is from volcanic ash. * My guess is that it would work fine but will tend to be more nutrient rich. A property that I don't want in my vivs.


I think you are correct Brent.

I've been using the Schultz product for 3 years now as my base to substitute for LECA.

I may try a 'bit' of the volcanic ash Red Sea product as a additive to the ABG top dress though.

Shawn


----------



## Ed

Ed said:


> An inexpensive source for red art can be found here
> 
> http://www.baileypottery.com/
> 
> Ed


A 50 lb bag was twenty cents a lb and shipping was about $16 for a total of about $26.00 

Ed


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Here is a 2.5 gallon springtail culture I made with some clay via Matt's recipe (haven't added the springs yet  ).


----------



## housevibe7

Thats some good lookin' substrate/soil there Mike


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## skylsdale

That's a great looking first batch, Michael--you're going to love this stuff. Get a good layer of leaf litter on top of that and you'll be amazed at how things start to progress (the springtails will love it).


----------



## Dendrobait

So how different are these aggregates in consistency from the Aquatic plant soil? Any significant advantages? To my eyes they look very similar.


----------



## bbrock

Dendrobait said:


> So how different are these aggregates in consistency from the Aquatic plant soil? Any significant advantages? To my eyes they look very similar.


Somewhere a few posts back I mentioned that there is likely not much difference. My formula was an attempt to cheaply replicate something like those aquarium soils. But.... I don't know what the calcium content of those aquarium soils is, but we've spiked ours to build a mineral source into the system.


----------



## kyle1745

Just a note that I added this thread to the sticky:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18325


----------



## Dancing frogs

*Re: Recipe 2*



Matt Mirabello said:


> sorry for the delay. I had the recipe in my Lab (where I make the soil) and kept forgetting to bring it home where I write my frog emails.
> 
> This soil recipe makes soils from "scratch," all ingredients you can get from a grocery store and local pottery supply.
> 
> here is the general recipe in grams of ingredients and percentages:
> kaolinite (EPK) 1100 [58%]
> Bentonite (kitty litter) 550 [29%]
> Fe Oxide red 70 [4%]
> Fe Oxide Yellow 70 [4%]
> Al oxide 60 [3%]
> sugar 9 [.5%]
> cornstarch 9 [.5%]
> gelatin 10 [.25%]
> soy protein 10 [.25%]
> CaCO3 20 [1%]
> 
> This recipe is just based on the soil composition from my study site in Panama. Other recipes will work, that mimic other soils.
> 
> Mix it all together with enough water boiling water to make it like yogurt. Mix very well (egg beater, potato masher, etc) Heat it up in the oven to lightly boiling/bubbling
> (be careful it bubbles ans it burns when one pops and lands on you)
> you will have a soil type smell in your kitchen from this
> mix it up one more time, allow to cool, then allow it to dry.
> 
> It should be dry enough to crumble apart with some force but not hard enough to to require a hammer or make dust.
> 
> Pass it through a fine screen (usual reptile screen ~1 mm).
> Take your soil and put it in a container so you can compact it again (yes I know this seems redundant)
> At this point you are now compacting all the small pieces into larger pieces that are loosely bound together. You can use a lot of force, like your foot or your body.
> Take the soil out and it should still com apart fairly easily (if your soil was too wet when you started it may just be a big clay lump at this point)
> break it apart again and pass it through a larger screen ~2-3 mm.
> 
> These small soil balls should now be ready for a frog tank. For variety you could skip the fine screen for some of the soil and just go to the large screen. It would just give you larger tight clay aggregates (harder for roots to penetrate, but still hold water and nutrients at their surface)
> 
> any questions?
> 
> Matthew Mirabello
> Ithaca, NY


Best place to get ingredients?
I found a few places for them, but can't seem to fine the Fe oxide yellow.


----------



## Ed

Matt,

What in your opinion would be the drawback to mixing it as a slurry and then filtering and then heating it? 

It should be easy to mix as a wetter slurry using a heavy duty drill and a paint mixer.

Ed


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Ed said:


> What in your opinion would be the drawback to mixing it as a slurry and then filtering and then heating it?
> It should be easy to mix as a wetter slurry using a heavy duty drill and a paint mixer.


This would work fine to mix the insoluble ingredients but the soluble organic compounds would be lost in the straining/filter step



Dancing Frogs said:


> Best place to get ingredients?
> I found a few places for them, but can't seem to fine the Fe oxide yellow.


I got mine here: 
http://www.clayscapespottery.com
They are in Syracuse NY but they do ship

The above recipe has an ingredient missing (kitty litter clay). Is it possible to have a moderator add it back in to the post?


----------



## Ed

I would have to mess with it a little but I think that if you mixed it at the level where it would slurry (or if possible exhibit thixatriopic properties) and then activated the gelatin it would allow it to set up enough along with the gelatin that it should retain the sugar and corn starch but would still allow it to lose water. 

Ed


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Ed,

I was thinking the same thing you were, not sure if it will get thixotropic (stable form when at rest but becoming fluid when agitated). I recommend mixing just enough water in to get it to mix with the drill mixer, then see how it settles out. You can always let it evaporate or boil off once mixed if there is some settling. 

This is all theoretical. The organic matter may not be as important and not much of it may leave in solution (it may have strong attractions for the clay).

.. OR Put some in a paint can and take it to the hardware store for a ride in the paint shaker.

Matt


----------



## flyangler18

Forgive me if this has been addressed in this conversation at some stage, but does one forgo the usual drainage layer and/or false bottom with these clay based substrates? I'd like to try moving to clay-based substrates on future vivs and I'm trying to wrap my mind around the finer points.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

flyangler18 said:


> Forgive me if this has been addressed in this conversation at some stage, but does one forgo the usual drainage layer and/or false bottom with these clay based substrates? I'd like to try moving to clay-based substrates on future vivs and I'm trying to wrap my mind around the finer points.


I do not think the topic has been addressed yet, directly. I highly recommend a drainage layer. The properties of the clay soil will be much different when it is under oxic (drained) versus anoxic (flooded) conditions. The best way to guarantee that the soil is at field capacity (or less) is to have a drainage layer under it.


----------



## stchupa

Been wanting to post somethings here, finally got some time to get on and check it out and honestly can't tell it head from ass anymore (that is the overall general conversation [soil] happening throughout DB, not this thread). I'm not one to talk, but the disorganization isn't very persuasive. 
This should extend knowledge/understanding /interest for husbandry not add complicity or make a hassle of it. 

I don't get why people seem so determined to spreading everything so thinly. Just thinking how nice it could be to follow only one thread. 

The idea and the motivation that has recently took into effect however is a great thing to finally see. Hopefully it remains more designated in one place now on.


----------



## flyangler18

So the major benefit to using a clay-based substrate is the 'inoculation' (for lack of a better word) of soil invertebrates with calcium which would ostensibly be passed onto the frogs when said soil invertebrates are ingested? Given that a major point that comes up again and again about sustainable populations of soil inverts in these types of vivaria, is it possible to calculate a limit to the size where such a level of self-sustaining populations are possible? In other words, what would be an average size of vivaria where the benefits of a clay-based substrate is truly realized i.e 'smaller' vivs cannot sustain soil invert populations without seeding, etc.


----------



## Jens

Some chemical composition data from clay based substrates used in planted tanks. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/subst ... aster.html

Maybe of some interested for you. I have Soilmaster Select in planted tanks for almost a year now and it doesn't break down. it is mainly used for the nutrition store properties. It would work the same way for calcium it you pre-treat the substrate with calcium solution.


----------



## bbrock

Yep, to follow up on Jens message, the clay has a high Cation Exchange Capacity. And Matt will tell me in tropical soils that CEC is provided by the iron oxide rather than the clay itself. But clay in most "normal" soils has high CEC which translates to an ability to both store, and give up, nutrients. So it isn't just that we are spiking it with calcium, but that we are spiking calcium into a suitable "sponge".

As for vivarium size and sustainablilty, drink plenty of cafeine, put on your reading glasses, and check out the links referenced in this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35619


----------



## Scott

Hey Brent,

Congratulations!

You are hereby appointed Deputy Dirt.

s :?


----------



## Scott

Hey Brent,

I say that with the utmost respect - regardless of how it appears.

I think the discussion here is outstanding, and I look forward to trying out your recipe when it gets warmer out. I did see your note about not necessarily needing to do this outside, but I would really prefer to do it outside. 

s


----------



## Corpus Callosum

I'm loving Matt's recipe, and while I didn't like the Fluorite I tried, I still want to try another 'premade' product so I'm going to try montmorillonite clay (Soilmaster Select).

What would be the best method to 'spike' it with calcium? Just mix in some calcium carbonate? Or soak it in a liquid with dissolved calcium?


----------



## bbrock

It is rather dusty Scott. Sarah and I mixed up a batch in my garage last month and it was fine, but I have an air cleaner for filtering sawdust out of the shop.

I'll defer to Matt for the best way to add calcium. I just add lime since that is the most common method for adding lime to ag/garden soils.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

bbrock said:


> I'll defer to Matt for the best way to add calcium. I just add lime since that is the most common method for adding lime to ag/garden soils.


Lime will work. I am not a big fan of using it because it can have drastic affects on pH when over used, especially in an unbuffered soil. Plants may not do as well if conditions are too alkaline, especially those used to organic soils or forest soils. Over time the soil pH will become more acidic (lower) through leaf litter decomposition producing organic acids and CO2.
I would opt for adding calcium carbonate powder to the soil and then allowing the acid in soil solution dissolve it so it can add to the exchange sites of the clay. The rate will depend on the amount of acidity on the clay already and the amount of leaf decomposition. It may not be as instant but will prevent the pH from getting to high if you add to much. It would happen on a time scale of weeks or less.

Another option would be an organic calcium compound (like calcium gluconate). The gluconate would break down fairly quick to some other anion to balance out the calcium. This would become available as fast as the lime would.

A combination of calcium gluconate and carbonate may be the best (just for a shot gun approach). 

Establishing microarthropod populations will take weeks anyway, so the calcium carbonate should be fine alone.

Do not add too much, it does not take much to saturate the soil with calcium. Excess would lead to other issues that aren't worth dealing with.


----------



## markbudde

Can anyone comment on Brent's vs Matt's soil, after having used them for a while now? I'm sure that they are both great, but does seem to hold up better, or encourage better microfauna, or drain better? Or are they functionally the same? Would you change the recipe at all in retrospect? I am plannign on setting up a self sustaining tank, with long term (5 year) minimal maintainance (hopefully without feeding bugs). Before taking the plunge and making one of these substrates in my one bedroom apartment, I was hoping to be persuaded towards one or the other?

I want to make sure my only tank will be perfect.

-mark


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Brent has far more first hand experience with this than I do. My recipe(s) are still in the testing phase and I cannot say how they will hold up over 6 months, let alone 5 years.
Brent's recipe, using the fortifier, in my opinion is the more assured method currently


----------



## bbrock

And I was going to say about the opposite as Matt. I guess that shows they are both highly experimental. Ron can vouch for the fact that the texture becomes very fragile over time. We may need to add more fortifier to the mix, but I'm afraid too much fortifier will just create plastic coated clay and lose the CEC properties of the clay itself. One thing I think I will change is the process. Next batch I will just mix the fortifier in with the water used to wet the dry materials in the first place. That should be a labor saver and also provide more complete penetration of the clay aggregates with the acrylic binder. But you actually want a substrate that, when wet, will break down into slimy clay with a pinch or squeeze. If it remains like sand grains even when saturated, it probably means there is too much acrylic. We want to expose the nake clay but bind it just enough it holds together in sand-sized aggregates for good drainage. Do you agree Matt?


----------



## Matt Mirabello

I should correct my last post. I do have one of my recipes that has been in a tank for 8 months now without any major problems BUT with noticeable changes (that may or may not be progressing toward a major problem)
see the discussion here on my "IAD tank"
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=254481&highlight=perched#254481
if you find a good local soil you can do some "amending" as I did to create something "new" but still retains characteristics of the starting soil.



bbrock said:


> But you actually want a substrate that, when wet, will break down into slimy clay with a pinch or squeeze. If it remains like sand grains even when saturated, it probably means there is too much acrylic. We want to expose the naked clay but bind it just enough it holds together in sand-sized aggregates for good drainage. Do you agree Matt?


I do agree!
The natural (tropical) soil characteristic that Brent and I trying to emulate is called pseudosanding. It is when clay particles are cemented together to form sand sized particles. When a soil with pseudosand is saturated with water the sand size particles will hold up for weeks or longer when there is no agitation. with agitation they can break down quickly. Just put some in the palm of your left hand (pea sized gob), overly wet it and then press your right index finger into it and move it around in a circle. You will feel the gritty/sandiness but in a couple minutes it is completely smooth. 

Mixing in the fortifier with the powder soil ingredients will help disperse it throughout the soil that is formed, then it is just a matter of breaking it into the particle size you want to use. 

Mark (and others): If you are looking to set up a long term soil tank I recommend waiting on a little bit longer until some of the other issues with the "homemade soil" are worked out. I am beginning to get the impression that some major progress in the "real soil" tank setup will be made soon (next couple months). A couple people out there are testing out different mixes, some are in the process of being made, and new products being investigated.
If you do not mind you tank being partly experimental go for it! As Brent has mentioned his first soil tank worked well but did not turn out exactly as planned. But if your time is both a time and money investment that you want "perfect," the best thing may be to go with established options.


----------



## bbrock

Matt Mirabello said:


> If you do not mind you tank being partly experimental go for it! As Brent has mentioned his first soil tank worked well but did not turn out exactly as planned. But if your time is both a time and money investment that you want "perfect," the best thing may be to go with established options.


Let me add just a little to this that might help people decide whether to jump onboard. My first clay-based experiment was using straight kitty litter which I started 12 years ago. Those vivaria are still going and nothing has changed regarding the texture of the soil that I can tell. The only issue is that I'm not entirely happy with that texture or look. It stays a bit too wet, and it is iron red.

The next iteration was using redart that was just mixed up, rolled into a 1/4" thick layer like pie doe, allowed to try, and then whacked into sand-sized aggregates with a hammer. This was placed in my large pumilio viv over a year ago. It looked nice but the texture started to dissolve after a couple months, and it had the consistency of potter's clay. My "fix" was to mix up some of this improved stuff with the acrylic and just top dress the old stuff. So I still have the first attempt in service, it just has a prettier face on top. But over a false bottom, it drains well and I see no puddling at all. But overall I think the combined soils are retaining more water than they would if it was all acrylic fortified stuff. So... even the old stuff seems to be stable at "reasonably good" stage. But not as good as I had hoped. Time will tell if the new stuff holds up, but so far, so good. I think I installed the top dressing in July and many areas still feel rather dry to the touch (and froglets hang out in that area a lot).

Finally, this may not be of interest, but here is some really basic stuff about soil (and Matt will correct any mistakes). Soil is decomposed rock for the most part, and it decomposes into 3 basic size categories: sand, silt, and clay from largest particle size to smallest. Clay is what adds fertility to soil (due to CEC), silt adds tilth and texture, and sand adds drainage. Those are at least very basic qualities. Andy soil is just a combination of these various sized particles and their relative proportions are used to classify soils. Clay particles tend to be flat platlettes with a charge so that lay over each other like shingles and slide easily across each other. This makes a water impervious and slippery barrier. The other thing clay does is pack really tight with little air space because of all those platlettes lying flat on each other. So while it holds a lot of nutrients and water, it can be pretty stingy with letting the water go, and it tends to be anoxic so plant roots, animals, and microbes (at least aerobes) don't thrive in it. But, if you aggregate the clay into sand-sized aggregates, then you have something that provides the benefits of clay, plus the drainage and aeration properties of sand. Anyway, if you didn't fall asleep through that. That is just a little background behind the madness.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

bbrock said:


> The only issue is that I'm not entirely happy with that texture or look. It stays a bit too wet, and it is iron red.


did it start iron red or develop that color over time? I have never seen kitty litter that color (or I would have purchased it!)


----------



## Matt Mirabello

bbrock said:


> Soil is decomposed rock for the most part, and it decomposes into 3 basic size categories: sand, silt, and clay from largest particle size to smallest.


This is true, but also want to add that as the rock is decomposed its mineral composition changes. The three terms above can have different mineralogical or size meanings depending on the context.

Soil particles progress through different mineral compositions and sizes through time (due to weathering). Not all clays are created equal. some have a very good ability to hold nutrients, others very poor. Most are composed of layers of Al/Si/O others are just metal oxides (Fe/O Al/O Mn/O)


----------



## stchupa

Was hoping someone to eventually bring up a discussion on balancing structural properties. For example fungal filiments (hyphae), invert excretions (mucous) acting in very similar was as they both wick and repell excess water. Anyone who has ever seen beaded soil or vermicompost knows what I'm talking about. Equally well aerated yet evenly moist. Clumps but does not stick. Not soley what we are venturing for but an integral base component to the system. 

Anyone have an idea of the amount of fulvic acid present in Rain forest soil? My guess is it would be rather high compared to a non-tropical environment even w/ the ongoing extra run off. 

One recipe I thought of included baking/growing the soil just as you would rise bread. The main reason I thought of this is I seen a potential problem w/ adding large amounts of organic fodder all in the begining (sugar, starch ect.) which would be a hay day for anyone thing able to colonize it (anerobe being my focus). So why not add active yeast to take up the time limited niche. This would serve multiple purposed by just adding yeast, first of all great jump start to the fauna but to all those gaining interest in diversity yeast is a very common food source for just about every scavenging org. A great carbohydrate source for myc. Running short on time here but I'll add later why going out of your way to inocculate a viv w/ plant fungi may be a futile approach in most viv. instances.

Anther thing I haven't seen anyone touch on is the impotance of airflow in the soil. Not that there is an actual forced/driven flow of air through the soil in a natural environment, but it is not stagnated because there is no cut of/seperation (acrylic/glass pane) to the rest of the soil. So hard to explain, but I tried, get the idea? This has always bothered me because in my point of view there is no suitable size to a viv. that I could reasonably come up w/. These are the only two I've come up w/, create a conservatory/biosphere w/ a limitless substrate depth or make a decent sized viv and artifically pump air through the soil. The latter not really self sustaining but haven't ran across a better idea as of yet. In nature I would think it to be incredibly rare for a dart to come in contact w/ anerobic soil (as it is likely to be a burried deposite but in a viv I could see it happening as even in a well though out/set up viv there are many aspects that remain disconnect from what I could ever consider natural.



Soil is the most overwhelming concept to gain even a slight understanding of, someone really let the cat out of the bag on this one.

I have a feeling, catch me on a 'good' day there will be much more to come. Leaking tanks have really killed my spirit the last week or so.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Just picked up some Soilmaster Select (montmorillonite clay) to mess around with.. it was dirt cheap :wink: . This is what the 'red' looks like when wet:


----------



## rozdaboff

That stuff looks great. It seems to have very good structure even when wet.

What are our dirt experts feelings about this?


----------



## Roadrunner

Where did you pick up the clay? I`m thinking of giving this stuff a try.


----------



## Scott

Soil. It's *soil* Oz! 

You know what this is, don't you?

The stuff on the warning track at your favorite baseball park. The stuff Eric Hinske got a good face of last year making a magnificent catch!

I tried getting it (around here) for an aquarium project with no luck.

s


rozdaboff said:


> That stuff looks great. It seems to have very good structure even when wet.
> 
> What are our dirt experts feelings about this?


----------



## Matt Mirabello

rozdaboff said:


> That stuff looks great. It seems to have very good structure even when wet.
> What are our *SOIL* experts feelings about this?


It looks very stable, which it should be. It is clay that has been fired at high temperature to literally turn it into a piece of pottery. It is similar to how LECA is made, but it is less rounded. The information on it indicates it has a decent CEC (ability to hold nutrients). I do not doubt it will support plant growth. I am not sure how it will support microarthropod populations as it is not a naturally occurring substrate. It has the stability of gravel but the exchange capacity of clay. I am not sure what is important for the mircroarthropods, the nutrients on the surface of the soilmaster or the ability of the microarthropods to actually ingest real soil. 

It is worth testing out though and I think it has potential. I am looking forward to hearing peoples results

Matt


----------



## skylsdale

bbrock said:


> Ron can vouch for the fact that the texture becomes very fragile over time.


Sorry I didn't reply to this sooner--I'm just catching up on this conversation. 

The texture definitely becomes fragile over time (e.g. just a few months for me). I pulled back the leaf litter on a few areas and noticed that in some areas the particles seem to be congealing together. I would guess that this is mostly due to exposure to moisture/spraying. Other areas (toward the back and that were more protected) don't seem as affected and seem to be holding their form better. 

The only thing that concerns me about a lack of texture is that the particles actually congeal and begin to form a solid mass of clay and the space between the particles disappears, removing the microhabitat for the microfauna. However, I have not noticed a decrease in microfaunan at all--when I pull the leaf litter back, it is absolutely crawling with springtails (I have not added anything else to the viv--c'mon springtime!--and even these were not purposefully added, but just showed up). 

I did take a few particles out, allowed them to dry, and then broke them between my fingers. When I did that, they broke apart and felt like they had a grainy texture, which I assume is what we're looking for, but like Brent said, maybe it's just a matter of adding a little more fortifier to help hold the texture a bit more successfully, but not so much that they become plastic-coated.


----------



## MonopolyBag

kyle1745 said:


> There are a couple of efforts ongoing to try to replicate a more "rainforest like" soil.
> 
> I think the key thing to note which is a big thing I am fighting is that most normal substrates do not handle the extended damp conditions of our tanks. They break down over time.
> 
> At least for larger collections or well misted ones I am thinking that even fine aquarium gravel would be better than some of the common substrates, but don't quote me on that.
> 
> I am going to test a couple of different things and see how they do over time as I think a number of other people are as well.


With basic knowledge of most general rain forests, the soil is layered. The top soil is all organic material, and as Kyle pointed out, easily breaks down, but in the wild, trees and plants quickly absorb it again, in our viv we are missing the trees and stuff like that. And in the wild then plants die off, in our viv we try to prevent that. A little different. Then the clay is under all of the organic material, clay will not drain too well either.

I guess theoretically someone could make a better more natural balance and soil for a viv, but I am guessing the viv would have to be larger, and I don't know much about microorganisms but maybe certain kinds would ave to be introduced as well as certain molds to help create a more natural system.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Aaron, I got it from my local Lesco.. here is the item number:

http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083253

Go to the page and type in your zip code and you'll see the nearest one to you.

Even though it's fired, it absorbs a decent amount of water, and if 'spiked' with calcium, it could be interesting..


----------



## skylsdale

> Then the clay is under all of the organic material, clay will not drain too well either.


But we're not dealing simply with clay here, but pseudosand.


----------



## sports_doc

My head hurts when I try to catch up on this thread. :roll: 

2 questions:

Thoughts [again] on using Red Sea florabase?
http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?page=FAP/PROD/SE/FBS

Thoughts on adding fungi to the mix?
http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/light-warrior-grow-medium.html

Ok so I'm inherently lazy, or 'pressed for time' as it were, so I'd love to start with the basic ABG mix and add a premixed product amendment to it, like the Shultz Aquatic Soil/Red Sea products or otherwise, then inoculate with beneficial fungi/bacteria used typically in the hydroponics realm. Add some Calcium enriched sand http://www.reptilesupply.com/index.php?cPath=38_104 and be done...

Can it work?


----------



## Scott

No.

Well, you asked.

s


sports_doc said:


> ... Can it work?


----------



## Corpus Callosum

You should try the florabase and let us know how it goes.

I've been adding beneficial fungi & bacteria inoculants to all my tanks, clay or not, with great results.


----------



## skylsdale

Shawn, one of the reasons it won't work is because of the organic nature of the ABG mix: as it breaks down it loses it's form and texture. This is one of the primary reasons for using the soil/clay/psuedosand: it holds its form, which creates space in between the particles that serves as a refuge for microfaunan from predators (in the form of frogs, anyway). 

If you tried to combine the two, my guess is that aspects of the ABG mix would eventually break down and clog the spaces between particles. Microfauna would then be forced to remain at the surface of the substrate.


----------



## bbrock

Reading in _Ecology of the Planted Aquarium_ the other night and came across reference to a study that clay or organic matter contains much more microbial biomass than sand or silt with the following reference that I have not tracked down:

Marshall, K.C. 1976. Interfaces in Microbial Ecology. Harvard University Press, Cambridge MA, p. 87.

This may, or may not be signiciant for using fired clays as substrates as opposed to actual clay. Microbes are the base of the food chain for microfauna so any substrate that is capable of supporting high microbial biomass (which results in rapid nutrient turnover) is going to support a vibrant microfauna population. Organic matter is excellent for this but, as we've mentioned, organic matter breaks down into humic acid over time so requires periodic replacement. Clay offers an alternative that potentially can provide most of the benefits of orgnanic matter, plus a high CEC for nutrient storage and exchange, but in a permanent form that can last forever. So the question here with respect to these fired clay products is whether they behave more like sand or silt with respect to microbes. If they answer is yes, then they have a limitation.

Also, the philosophy I used on my substrate mix was to find a way to hold the pseudo-sand properties of clay aggregates just long enough for naturally aggregating mechanisms to take hold. This brings us to those beneficial fungi and bacteria that Shawn mentioned. These are going to be critical for the long term success of clay substrates I think. Mycorrhizal fungi and bacteria excrete gloumulin that glues soil particles together to form aggregates. However, I'm a cheap SOB and don't like paying money for things I can get for free. That's why my mix includes an innoculation of soil collected from a natural ecosystem to infuse the substrate with the beneficial fungi and bacteria needed to start this process. They idea is that over time these microbes will beging gluing the clay particles together to mainatain the pseudo-sand structure.

However, there is another component that I think is important and that is the mechanical processes needed to maintain pore spaces and microhabitats for microfauna. This means including species that burrow through the substrate to maintain fissures and burrows that microfauna can occupy. I can't think of any better invertebrate for the task than earthworms which is why I include them. Yes, earthworms can make short work of organic matter, but clay is not organic so I think the burrows of the worms, and the aggregation of particles they create in their castings is an important component of this clay-based system. Granted, these fired clay products can retain drainage and substrate texture without the presence of mycorrhizae and worms, but without knowing what their capacity for supporting biofilms are, it's hard to evaluate if they will perform as well.

Found a cool handout on soil aggregation: http://snr.osu.edu/current/courses/ss30 ... andout.pdf


----------



## sports_doc

Corpus Callosum said:


> You should try the florabase and let us know how it goes.
> 
> I've been adding beneficial fungi & bacteria inoculates to all my tanks, clay or not, with great results.


I have Michael, but I may not know 'how it goes' for months to years to come...

and at 30$ a bag, that's a lot of money for 'part' of the substrate on a singe 20 gal tank...add sand, bacterial inoculant, top dressing ect and I just cant see anyone converting large collection to this. 

One reason I've experimented with just adding it to mixes, although i like the idea of the product you mentioned as well.

A few of us, [NEFG] are going to try Brents mix soon, making a larger batch once we have stockpiled the ingredients [Scott is spearheading this].

None to soon for me as I have 6 new tanks taking shape that will need substrate in the next month or so.

S


----------



## Detrick105

Has anyone tried using bone meal in the substrate? Or crushed up cuttle bones (for birds). When I used to keep semi aquatic turtles I would place cuttle bones under the gravel so they would slowly dissovle and release calcium into the water.
Thanks, Steve


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Turns out the clay I posted above as soilmaster select was actually just the red infield conditioner (I misread the label). They are both the same type of clay and manufactured in the same way, just different particle size, Matt called oildri (the manufacturer) and found out. The infield conditioner is the largest particle size, soilmaster select behind it, and rapid dry the smallest particle size. It's summed up here: http://www.oildri.com/proschoice/products.html

Well I wanted something less gravel like and more 'soil' like in particle size so I grabbed some of the rapid dry today. It has a consistency like sand but is clay, pretty interesting.



















50 lbs for 9 bucks.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Corpus Callosum said:


> It's summed up here: http://www.oildri.com/proschoice/products.html


The company also was kind enough to send me samples of all of their products, the package just arrived today. I am going to check them out later tonight or tomorrow to see some of their other products may be useful as well

Matt


----------



## rozdaboff

It is very hard to keep up with you clay people....


----------



## joeyo90

this is the first time ive looked through this thread and its great


----------



## Jens

Corpus Callosum said:


> Well I wanted something less gravel like and more 'soil' like in particle size so I grabbed some of the rapid dry today. It has a consistency like sand but is clay, pretty interesting.


Mike, did you put any of the stuff to use yet. BTW, glad to hear a local Lesco store was close by to you. 

Any positive results compared to traditional substrate mixtures so far?


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Not yet but I'm setting up a few tanks this week with it. Some I'll use straight infield conditioner, others I'll have straight rapid dry, and might try a mix in another. I just want to see if the plants and springtails like it before moving to froglets.


----------



## thiefness

My pothos seemed to like the infield conditioner, syngonium seems to be doing well also.


----------



## joeyo90

*Re:*



Corpus Callosum said:


> Here is a 2.5 gallon springtail culture I made with some clay via Matt's recipe (haven't added the springs yet  ).


did you ever add springs? if so how did it work out
(whole post with pictures is back on page 10)


----------



## joeyo90

there was something else i forgot to ask matt and bbrock
was there somewhere in particular that would be better to get seed soil (for the arthropods and other goodies) like out in my yard or out i the middle of the woods somewhere


----------



## Matt Mirabello

joeyo90 said:


> is there somewhere in particular that would be better to get seed soil (for the arthropods and other goodies) like out in my yard or out i the middle of the woods somewhere


Soil arthropods are ubiquitous, even a well maintained homogeneous golf course will have some. A forest will yield the most arthropod diversity on the whole, but when sampled at one point it will be substantially less than the whole forest. Sample from many places. whenever the weather is warm enough I go out with a big bucket and collect isopods from wherever I can find them. I have inadvertently collects springtails, mites, millipedes, and lots of other stuff I have not identified. I am bound to get slugs and snails, not sure how I will deal with that yet. 

Diversify! It is near impossible to predict what natural areas will have the best arthropods species composition for your terrarium (and food source for them). Sampling in multiple habitats and micro-habitats will ensure a diverse mix of species adapted to man different conditions. Some may thrive, some may just die (and without a microscope you may not even be able to tell the difference between species that thrive or die!). Look for different habitat types (forest, back yard, field, etc) and then also sample within the micro-habitats within those habitats (under rocks, under logs, leaves, needles, soil conditions, etc). Things also change in a habitat through time, species that abundant in June could be rare in October when another community thrives.

so to answer your question, sample them both multiple times.

Lately I have been setting up mixed arthropod colonies on soil and I have been using multiple soil types and getting arthropods from all around campus (lawns, ditches, forests). Not sure how well this is working but I am hoping to be able to use this to seed all my tanks once it becomes established.

Matt


----------



## bbrock

Matt gave an excellent overview. I've also found moist leaf litter and compost to be excellent sources for microfauna. One possible advantage of collecting from a mature compost pile that was "hot composted" is that hot composting destroys most pathogens. Of course it takes time for the pile to cool and be recolonized by invertebrates so there is always a slight chance of reinfection.

Also, sampling at different times of the year (even in winter) can help add diversity as different invertebrate species will be active or at appropriate stages of potential colonization of the viv at different times. Also remember that most introductions are unsuccessful on the first attempt. Even the frickin' European starling took several attempts before it was successfully established in the US. So adding a sample from a good invertebrate hotspot may yield a higher establishment rate if samples are added repeatedly over time.

As always, think about chytrid when you are doing this though.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Matt Mirabello said:


> The company also was kind enough to send me samples of all of their products, the package just arrived today.  I am going to check them out later tonight or tomorrow to see some of their other products may be useful as well


One of the products they sent is called "promound packing clay"
"A unique blue gumbo packing clay, Pro Mound bonds to form a solid subsurface in the mound and batters boxes that allows players to "dig in" and establish footing without leaving large holes. Also available in preformed brick."

it came as clay aggregates that averages the size of peas but had a lot of variability in size and shapes. I soaked some in water for 2 days and was only able to get it to break its form by mushing it between my fingers. This may prove to be another viable option as a miner soil for frog tanks, the large pores should support a good microarthropod population.

The company also makes of clay products for other applications (kitty litter, oil clean up,and a toxin adsorber for food animal feed). I will call their other divisions to try and get free samples of these as well.

Matt


----------



## npaull

For people who collect soil from the wild to use in tanks (I get most of mine by poking around the local NW forest until I found a soil consistency/composition that I like) where do you come down on sterilizing the soil vs. using it as-is? I frequently will bake soil in the oven for a few hours to kill off all whatever animals are in it, but now I'm thinking this may be unnecessary or possibly worse than using "raw" forest soil. Assuming chytrid isn't an issue... thoughts?


----------



## Matt Mirabello

I have only set up one tank using outside soil. I only let it air dry at room temperature, I did not bake it. However I think if I am going to use soil from outside int he future I am going to autoclave it. That will keep it moist and the heat will kill most (but not all) of the things in it that could be pathogens. After making the soil I can then "seed it" with arthropods and microorganisms from a stock soil tank without frogs in it

Matt


----------



## Ed

For the home user without a pressure cooker or an autoclave, what about using those bags made to roast chickens in? That way the person could cook the dirt in an oven and keep in moist.. the downside is that you would lose the mycorhizzae and invertebrates. 

The problem with outside dirt is knowing where chytrid is and isn't a problem... oddly enough there hasn't been a lot of attention spent on determining how widespread it is in the USA. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock

I have never sterilized soil because my main point of using it is to get the stuff living in it. But with chytrid, using unsterilized soil is becoming an increasingly risky proposition. In my case, I have a spot on my property that is dry and some distance from any amphibian populations which I think is pretty safe. But I will say that I'm becoming less comfortable with using untested soils. I'll continue using unsterilized soil for now because the stuff that crawls out of it is so good. But I can't comfortably recommend that others do it.


----------



## phishstixx

with clay sub. I will have a need for any thing else in the substrate like eco-earth. If not will i benefit from adding eco-earth to it. For I've set up a quick 10g tank for curiosity while I'm debating wheather to use a 20g high are 30g and know I have no idea what to do as far as substrate. if to go with the clay or the usual mix which I already have. How cost effective is the clay sub. And is there a easier way to make it such as using eco-complete(used in planted fish tanks) which the clay sub resembles.


----------



## Vivarium Concepts

*Ed,
for those that do not have a pressure cooker, or access to an autoclave. would moistening the soil and microwaving it successfully kill the nasties? 
Ideally what would the internal temperature need to reach, and how long would it need to be maintained at that temp?*


----------



## Ed

Vivarium Concepts said:


> *Ed,
> for those that do not have a pressure cooker, or access to an autoclave. would moistening the soil and microwaving it successfully kill the nasties?
> Ideally what would the internal temperature need to reach, and how long would it need to be maintained at that temp?*



The main one I would be worried about is chytrid.. the active zoospores are readily killed by simply throughly drying the material however there is now speculation (I haven't seen anything conclusive yet) that there maybe a durable resting spore. 

Most of the other nasties could be eliminated by simply microwaving it until the water is steaming but I don't know what that would do to the structure of the soil that we are trying so hard to create and develop which is why I asked about the oven bags (as this would also eliminate the smell that so many significant others object to having emerge). 

Ed


----------



## Matt Mirabello

phishstixx said:


> with clay sub. I will have a need for any thing else in the substrate like eco-earth. If not will i benefit from adding eco-earth to it.


I think the addition of eco-earth like products were discussed earlier in this thread or perhaps another thread. Addition of organic potting soil is not needed and over time it will break down, potentially causing the soil to lose its porosity. 



phishstixx said:


> How cost effective is the clay sub. And is there a easier way to make it such as using eco-complete(used in planted fish tanks) which the clay sub resembles.


the eco-complete looks like an interesting product. I would like to know more about its composition and hear from people who have used it in terrariums. Not accounting for the time investment that currently exists in making your own soil the eco-complete seems much more expensive. The homemade soil will be ~$1 a lb (dry) or less depending on the clay you use. The eco-complete costs the same but comes wet so you are paying for a substantial amount of water (and transport of that water).


----------



## bbrock

phishstixx said:


> with clay sub. I will have a need for any thing else in the substrate like eco-earth. If not will i benefit from adding eco-earth to it. For I've set up a quick 10g tank for curiosity while I'm debating wheather to use a 20g high are 30g and know I have no idea what to do as far as substrate. if to go with the clay or the usual mix which I already have. How cost effective is the clay sub. And is there a easier way to make it such as using eco-complete(used in planted fish tanks) which the clay sub resembles.


Unless you find a low-cost ready mix clay substrate like some of the products discussed in the latter part of this thread, I wouldn't recommend using a clay substrate in a temporary viv. The stuff that I make is inexpensive to purchase materials for, but costs a bit in terms of labor to prepare. And wet clay is not very pleasant to work with and clean up so using the clay for temporary vivs and stripping them down may not be the best option.


----------



## phishstixx

I ran across this post on another forum. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/foru ... g-56k.html would this able similar to whats being spoken about here.


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## Matt Mirabello

phishstixx said:


> would this able similar to whats being spoken about here.


This is compositionally very similar. Both setups are similar for nutrient delivery to plants BUT are very different in terms of habitat spaces for invertebrates. For a terrestrial soil the composition is just as important as the arrangement/texture. The method used in that particular forum/thread would destroy any pores that the soil has. I use a similar method to initially homogenize all of the soil components but then dry it and crumble it to get the structure back.

I know this is a long thread but if you read it start to finish it hopefully covers all the details of the importance of the composition and structure. (and if it doesn't it shall be added!)

Matt


----------



## a hill

*Re:*

Long time no typing :roll: I've been over on the planted tank forums and busy with school and whatnot sooo...

I've recently taken out the substrate that was in my 55g planted which was a mix of Flora base and then some regular gravel. I've got two 5gallon home depot buckets full of it. Does anyone want it?

Since its two years old in tank its not all perfect granules anymore and I think it won't be as nutrient rich as it was when new but it may be better with all the mulm. 

I'm hoping to catch up on this thread soon...



sports_doc said:


> http://www.marineandreef.com/shoppro/sand_gravel3.htm
> 
> I recent purchased some of this to try. Seems "similar" to the Schultz Aquatic plant soil I've been using...
> 
> To start I was planning on adding it to the ABG mix I'm currently using as a base substrate.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> [sorry if this product has already come up in this thread someplace]
> 
> S


I mentioned it in one of the first pages (then I dissapeared back over at TPT so I'm very behind on this thread  I think I'll have caught up by the end of the week...) I think it may be the best commercial product for people who want this clay based substrate type and don't want to really have to do much.

If I disappear again over on http://www.plantedtank.net I'm A Hill and aim I'm oooppp098 just give me a shout and I'll be back hopefully I also think I found another similar product to use for the compost wall type tank. (pyrex open cell foam anyone? Its similar to epiweb)

-Andrew


----------



## a hill

Well one person sent me a pm asking for info on the foam, so others must be wondering as well.

Its not pyrex (dunno why I was thinking that last night) its Poret. The only person I know who sells it in the USA at the moment is Brian's friend over at SwissTropicals. I've talked to Stephan and he is a very nice guy. 

Poret is an open cell foam which gives much more surface area for bacteria to colonize as biological media for fish tank filters. I'm thinking the same surface area could be beneficial for the purpose of the divider because it could also be a good place for all those bugs to live as well and the more in the divider the more going out of the divider hypothetically speaking. I think I may try using this when I set up my viv.

Here is the link and all the good information: http://swisstropicals.com/Poret%20Filter%20Foam.html

-Andrew


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Looks great! I think the black version might be a good alternative to treefern (or epiweb depending on the cost).


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Just keep in mind it is a hydrophobic foam so it won't wick any water.


----------



## Julio

so which clay have you guys found to be the most useful in vivariums?


----------



## a hill

Matt Mirabello said:


> Looks great! I think the black version might be a good alternative to treefern (or epiweb depending on the cost).


I talked to him, and he said in the future he may get the black. He said right not he only got a shipment of blue which is basically the standard color. Supposedly it does darken up quick in the aquarium and I figure once its covered with moss you'd never be able to tell otherwise.

I can't remember exactly what the epiweb ended up costing because I was looking at that as well, but I think they're about the same cost.

-Andrew


----------



## Jason

I am looking to make a large batch of clay based substrate. This thread has been going on for some time now and after reading all 15 pages again, I was wondering how things are going now in your vivs. How are things holding up? I like the idea of the "oildry" clay and maybe a mixture of this with one of the other recipies would work. Just getting more ideas before I try it out myself.


----------



## Jason

Found this today.



> Concentration of nutrients in Flourite™
> Aluminum 10210
> Barium 124
> Calcium 195
> Cobalt 6
> Chromium 13
> copper 17
> Iron 18500
> Potassium 2195
> Magnesium 2281
> Manganese 64
> Sodium 223
> Nickel 12
> Vanadium 15
> Zinc 29
> 
> Units=mg/kg, source: Plasma Emission Spectrometer, EPA Method 3050, Univ. of Georgia Chemical Analysis Lab


Given the fact that Flourite will not break down, maybe a mixture on a few recipes found in this thread would work the best. I have some of the infield clay coming and we will see what I come up with. 

I would really like to know if some of the other ideas here have worked or not, so I don't redo someone's testing and can save a little $ and time.


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Jason said:


> Units=mg/kg, source: Plasma Emission Spectrometer, EPA Method 3050, Univ. of Georgia Chemical Analysis Lab


here is a link to the method:
http://www.epa.gov/SW-846/pdfs/3050b.pdf

This represents what can potentially come out of the soil/flourite but it is hard to say how available it may be on the timescale that we use it in our tanks. some of the less aggressive digestion techniques may give a better indication of available nutrients. Additionally soil amendments can be added. the main reasons for using real soil:

1) refugia for arthropods, promoting better food diversity for frogs
2) potentially a means for arthropods to get better calcium and overall nutrient composition by consuming soil and the bacteria/fungi that live on it (from decaying leaf litter and plant roots)


----------



## Jason

> Clay minerals act as "chemical sponges" which hold water and dissolved plant nutrients weathered from other minerals. This results from the presence of unbalanced electrical charges on the surface of clay grains, such that some surfaces are positively charged (and thus attract negatively charged ions), while other surfaces are negatively charged (attract positively charged ions). Clay minerals also have the ability to attract water molecules. *Because this attraction is a surface phenomenon, it is called adsorption (which is different from absorption because the ions and water are not attracted deep inside the clay grains)*.


Matt, or anyone else.....With the use of clay minerals like kaolinite and bentonite in one of the recipes, do you think your clay has these adsorption properties? If not, is their a way we could adjust the recipe to achieve this?

I have what I need to make quite a few batches of both recipes (Brother-in-law is a potter), and I am just trying learn more before I start.


----------



## Dancing frogs

I'm fairly certain they will do just that


----------



## Scott

Jason - do it before the seasons change. Try to wait for a spell of low humidity as well.

You will likely need someone helping you as well.

I can tell you for certain that making batches in the basement in winter time is an interesting experience.

s


----------



## Jason

Scott said:


> Jason - do it before the seasons change. Try to wait for a spell of low humidity as well.
> 
> You will likely need someone helping you as well.
> 
> I can tell you for certain that making batches in the basement in winter time is an interesting experience.
> 
> s


I plan to do these up with in the next month. So I can't do it one handed?  :lol: My other is arm is broke. :roll:


----------



## nish07

Anyone have a pic of red infield (large particle clay) in their hand or close up next to something for reference. I'd like to get a good idea of the particle size. Also, red infield sells a turf conditioner that's gray and looks really nice.

-Nish


----------



## Jason

Here you go.









Left to right. Red, Select, Rapid Dry










Red










Select










Rapid Dry


----------



## nish07

Thanks a lot Jason. I think I'm going to get some of the red infield gray clay and see how it works out in a mix.

-Nish


----------



## Dancing frogs

*Re: Recipe 2*



Matt Mirabello said:


> sorry for the delay. I had the recipe in my Lab (where I make the soil) and kept forgetting to bring it home where I write my frog emails.
> 
> This soil recipe makes soils from "scratch," all ingredients you can get from a grocery store and local pottery supply.
> 
> here is the general recipe in grams of ingredients and percentages:
> 
> kaolinite (EPK) 1100 [58%]
> Bentonite (kitty litter) 550 [29%]
> Fe Oxide red 70 [4%]
> Fe Oxide Yellow 70 [4%]
> Al oxide 60 [3%]
> sugar 9 [.5%]
> cornstarch 9 [.5%]
> gelatin 10 [.25%]
> soy protein 10 [.25%]
> CaCO3 20 [1%]
> 
> This recipe is just based on the soil composition from my study site in Panama. Other recipes will work, that mimic other soils.
> 
> Mix it all together with enough water boiling water to make it like yogurt. Mix very well (egg beater, potato masher, etc) Heat it up in the oven to lightly boiling/bubbling
> (be careful it bubbles ans it burns when one pops and lands on you)
> you will have a soil type smell in your kitchen from this
> mix it up one more time, allow to cool, then allow it to dry.
> 
> It should be dry enough to crumble apart with some force but not hard enough to to require a hammer or make dust.
> 
> Pass it through a fine screen (usual reptile screen ~1 mm).
> Take your soil and put it in a container so you can compact it again (yes I know this seems redundant)
> At this point you are now compacting all the small pieces into larger pieces that are loosely bound together. You can use a lot of force, like your foot or your body.
> Take the soil out and it should still com apart fairly easily (if your soil was too wet when you started it may just be a big clay lump at this point)
> break it apart again and pass it through a larger screen ~2-3 mm.
> 
> These small soil balls should now be ready for a frog tank. For variety you could skip the fine screen for some of the soil and just go to the large screen. It would just give you larger tight clay aggregates (harder for roots to penetrate, but still hold water and nutrients at their surface)
> 
> any questions?
> 
> Matthew Mirabello
> Ithaca, NY
> 
> Edit - ingredient added to recipe - Oz 1/6/08


Okay, I tried this recipe, though from the sounds of it, I let it dry out too much. I spread it about 1/4" thick on cardboard, put a fan on it, and tried to break it up 2 days later...I needed a rolling pin to crush it, and it got powdery...as mentioned in Matt's directions, it sounds like I got it way too dry.
To anyone who's tried this (or similar) recipes, what is a good depth to spread the wet clay to dry before granulating it? 
1/4" just dried out too fast on the edges, while leaving the middle still sticky wet.


----------



## crb_22601

I have finished reading everything on this thread and cant believe I have missed it being on dendroboard for a while. It was a very informative read. In the beginning of this post for the clay based substrate they had said that you could use some soils from the southwest which luckily is where I currently am. I was wondering if I did use some of the soils here are there any additives I would need to add to the soil to make it work in a viv or is it something that I wouldn't need to amend at all?


----------



## Jason

I don't think this was ever answered. 

How do you put this clay in your vivariums? No drainage layer, drainage layer?


----------



## ChrisK

Most people said they used false bottoms


----------



## Mac

I had a question about how the claybased substrate can better sustain micro fauna? With clay/silt based soil, it seems like it doesnt drain very well, because everything is like mud basiclly, springs, and other microfauna need air to sustain them, but there is no air left if the soil is soggy,( because it doesnt drain). So here is what it was made of;

I have a compost pile in my backyard, were I add scraps including: Veggies, rice, tortillas, avocados, egg shells, everything that is decomposable we put in there. But it is not only organic material, it started with a pile of soil from our backyard, which happens to be an area where they usto farm rice, so the soil is very thick clay, hard and sticky. 

So I dont see how these clay substrates wont just turn into a silty mess, where there is no oxygen for animals.


----------



## ChrisK

Well when people make it, they usually use an acrylic fortifier or corn starch or something so that it will hold a sand or small pebble-like consistency


----------



## Dancing frogs

Mac said:


> I had a question about how the claybased substrate can better sustain micro fauna? With clay/silt based soil, it seems like it doesnt drain very well, because everything is like mud basiclly, springs, and other microfauna need air to sustain them, but there is no air left if the soil is soggy,( because it doesnt drain). So here is what it was made of;
> 
> I have a compost pile in my backyard, were I add scraps including: Veggies, rice, tortillas, avocados, egg shells, everything that is decomposable we put in there. But it is not only organic material, it started with a pile of soil from our backyard, which happens to be an area where they usto farm rice, so the soil is very thick clay, hard and sticky.
> 
> So I dont see how these clay substrates wont just turn into a silty mess, where there is no oxygen for animals.


Actually, if you let clay dry till it is bone dry, chunks of it will stay chunks for quite a while, even submerged.
I belive the key is to process it to aquarium gravel sized media, and to not get it wet before it is put in the viv, and planted, and then, very gently (mist) rehydrated, then it will not be a big tank full of muck.

I recently spent a good deal of time cooking up some of Matt's recipe (from scratch) and would like to know if anyone has any time saving tips for processing it from the drying stage, to granulating, recompressing and re granulating it for use in the viv. It is on racks drying out right now.


----------



## ChrisK

Oh yeah how long did you spend on it up until now? I was gonna try out the infield conditioner but Ed talked me out of that lol, I'm gonna start on Brent's pretty soon since it's working for his pumilio and they are who mine will be for


----------



## markbudde

how did ed talk you out of it? I was planning on using infield conditioner next time.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

markbudde said:


> how did ed talk you out of it? I was planning on using infield conditioner next time.


See some of the first few posts on calcium/clay substrates here : http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/34668-natural-terrarium-design.html


----------



## markbudde

Thanks Mike. Let me ask a related question. Has anyone observed any benefit with a calcium enriched soil, or is this all theoretical? And what is the potential benefit? Is it more microfauna or is it the potential to reduce calcium supplements during feeding? I ask because I have a calcium enriched Brock-type substrate, and my frogs can subsist for the most part solely on microfauna, but they still need calcium supplements.


----------



## NathanB

Anyone know where i can get the rapid dry in maryland?


----------



## Corpus Callosum

You can check to see Welcome to LESCO.com 's distributors, but just to sum up my last link, we don't think the infield conditioners, soilmaster selects, and rapid drys, hold as much calcium as we thought past the initial inoculation. Still a good substrate that will last forever and a nice LECA substitute in some cases, but not enough info to verify how much calcium it's actually "holding" long term.


----------



## ChrisK

If i remember right Mark your whole tank doesn't use that soil right? Go reread some of Brent's posts in this thread and probably in the pumilio tips thread, I think he said something like his percentage of froglet success now is dramatically better with keeping them in the parent tank with the soil and UVB and that he doesn't supplement as much anymore


----------



## Ed

*Re: Recipe 2*



Dancing frogs said:


> Okay, I tried this recipe, though from the sounds of it, I let it dry out too much. I spread it about 1/4" thick on cardboard, put a fan on it, and tried to break it up 2 days later...I needed a rolling pin to crush it, and it got powdery...as mentioned in Matt's directions, it sounds like I got it way too dry.
> To anyone who's tried this (or similar) recipes, what is a good depth to spread the wet clay to dry before granulating it?
> 1/4" just dried out too fast on the edges, while leaving the middle still sticky wet.


Try spreading it out over a permeable surface (I used newspaper over a screen suspended over large rubbermaid sweaterboxes). If the edges are drying too quickly you can place saran wrap over the edges to keep the edges moister and prevent it from drying too quickly. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> Oh yeah how long did you spend on it up until now? I was gonna try out the infield conditioner but Ed talked me out of that lol, I'm gonna start on Brent's pretty soon since it's working for his pumilio and they are who mine will be for


I'm setting up some variations using the infield conditioner as part of the drainage layer as well as a couple that are going to have some "nodules" of calcium rich clay coming up through the infield conditioner to allow access to these for the frogs. this way I will have an ABG terraria for control and several different clay mixes, and several versions using the infield conditioner as well to compare all of them and how well they work. I had to order a more powerful mist pump to keep them all on the same schedule of misting as well as well as same water sources. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

markbudde said:


> Thanks Mike. Let me ask a related question. Has anyone observed any benefit with a calcium enriched soil, or is this all theoretical? And what is the potential benefit? Is it more microfauna or is it the potential to reduce calcium supplements during feeding? I ask because I have a calcium enriched Brock-type substrate, and my frogs can subsist for the most part solely on microfauna, but they still need calcium supplements.


Hi Mark,

The goal is to support a good microfaunal population that supplies at least some calcium when the frogs feed on it. 
As for reseach on it... there isn't any for the actual terraria but there are studies in the literature that show herps (at least in the wild) select inverts not only based on caloric levels but calcium content. There are also citations in the literature that show that inverts from calcium rich soils contain better calcium levels (for the actual references I refer you the bibliography in the Nutrition Chapter in Mader's Book). 

Brent Brock has noticed a positive effect with his pumilio over the long term (anecdotal). 

Ed


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## jausi

this is a great info so many recepies, just a question , I'm not an expert, but I'd tried this on fish tanks I used to have before.

First all of them were planted, the first one had potting soil and small gravel, the second one is had kittie litter mix with top soil and the third had a layer of clay ( the one you use for baseball fields), another layer of soil and small gravel. all the tanks had regular light 

The first one did well, the second one did better, but the third one plants when crazy and took over all the tank.

I desided to try something with the first one one change the light to a UV light for reptiles and the plants when crazy too.

That my experience with fish tanks, now my question is: do you guys think I can just mix either top soil with clay (same clay I use for my fish tanks, with out crushing the clay) or just use lecca then place screen on top add moss, then 1"1/2 layer of clay (again not crushing the clay) and the top soil or other type of soil?, can this work fine or is there any risks for the frogs??, and I was thinking to add Uv light for the plants too.
Any comments or toughs??


----------



## Dancing frogs

*Re: Recipe 2*



Ed said:


> Try spreading it out over a permeable surface (I used newspaper over a screen suspended over large rubbermaid sweaterboxes). If the edges are drying too quickly you can place saran wrap over the edges to keep the edges moister and prevent it from drying too quickly.
> 
> Ed


Yeah, for this latest (larger batches) I bought some cheap plastic, ventilated shelving units and covered them with duck canvas (back in high school ceramics we used to use canvas covered benches) seems to be drying much more even.

Still looking for input as to easier ways to break the stuff up...adding all the time up in the various steps of the process, I'm pretty much spending the better part of a day to make enough substrate for a small tank...but then again, if done right, should last forever. 
My tanks set up with ABG were doing great for the longest time, but now, after 5-6 years of use, the substrate is definatly showing wear and tear.


----------



## Ed

*Re: Recipe 2*



Dancing frogs said:


> Yeah, for this latest (larger batches) I bought some cheap plastic, ventilated shelving units and covered them with duck canvas (back in high school ceramics we used to use canvas covered benches) seems to be drying much more even.
> 
> Still looking for input as to easier ways to break the stuff up...adding all the time up in the various steps of the process, I'm pretty much spending the better part of a day to make enough substrate for a small tank...but then again, if done right, should last forever.
> My tanks set up with ABG were doing great for the longest time, but now, after 5-6 years of use, the substrate is definatly showing wear and tear.


If you can use the canvas to support it or a flexible plastic sheet you can turn the clay over onto a screen of the desired width and then use a rolling pin to push it through with the plastic/canvas keeping it from sticking to the pin (basically a poor man's extruder). roll some through, tilt the screen up and run a dough scraper/cutter down the screen to break it off into particles the length you want to use. You can add a little vegetable or olive oil on the blade of the dough scraper to keep the clay from sticking (as the microbes in the tanks will quickly deal with any left over oil). 



Ed


----------



## Ed

jausi said:


> That my experience with fish tanks, now my question is: do you guys think I can just mix either top soil with clay (same clay I use for my fish tanks, with out crushing the clay) or just use lecca then place screen on top add moss, then 1"1/2 layer of clay (again not crushing the clay) and the top soil or other type of soil?, can this work fine or is there any risks for the frogs??, and I was thinking to add Uv light for the plants too.
> Any comments or toughs??


you can use the clay without crushing it up but then the pore space is lost and it doesn't work as well as an invert refugia. I have one test tank set up along these lines and the invert population is not even close. Even the ABG mix has a better invert population in it. 

Ed


----------



## stchupa

Something as maybe an interesting note to build from (remind/"simplify"). The thing I've come to noticed w/ co co over the past (and I hope most others) is that for short term substrate it is nearly the perfect natural material as far as all it's inherent properties (i.e. cell structure/memory, natural biotic inhibitors and then of course what ever 'listless' "unrecognixed" 'un'-"imaginables"-)possibly should be rethought before being entirely thrown out of the mix

The problem (as I see it) isn't neccessarliy the material but the state it was left (intended) as. Although coconut husk may have anti-properties it's devolped in defense of the embryo not the husk decaying, an impermanant property in it's 'intended' state. Now take the same material (coco, prefferably in chunks and not milled) char it and what you then should have (If done prperly and not entirely burned to ash) is a product w/ nearly alll the same short term properties you'd want to keep but you easily double the properties "life" expectancy of decay when alone and then multi times that when mixed in a 'soil' substrate.> One property that is reversed by this process is the leaching by coco in water/other materials to sequestering those materials/minerals by the charred coco, in some case fortifying it and extending the expectancy.

Not to limit any guidance further by applying that example only to coco, but it just happens to be some good 'stuff' (imo)the ever too common waaay overlooked, cheap and mostly ready. Hopefully when spring comes I can work on larger bales and formulate a surfactant (sugar water/ yeast base) that can expand the bails evenly to the right density w/out entirely saturating/fluffing them and to get them as close to a slow smolder as possible. No one was intirely 'wrong' in the begining.


----------



## Dancing frogs

Just an idea for stabilizing the structure of clay substrate:
When I have experimented with buttermilk/moss milkshake, the results a few days later is a nice, thick layer of mold and or mycelium (though this was on ABG mix), which springtails absolutely loved till mites took over.
I'm thinking it may have some benefit to lightly coat the clay after doing the landscaping, thinking the fungus growing through it will help hold the air pockets and keep it from compacting...I wouldn't bet on good moss growth on it however.

I was wondering if anyone has had trouble with certain plants due to the high pH of most clays?
I was also wondering how much of the unfired clay is really needed for what we are trying to acheive.
I was kind of thinking 1 inch (maybee even less?) of unfired clay on top of a couple inches of fired clay (such as the soilmaster) would be plenty.

Just some thoughts, my first big batch of clay is almost completely processed (measured,mixed, boiled, baked, dried, pulverized, re-compressed, and pulverized again).


----------



## Ed

Hi Brian,

I have some test tanks set-up right now that have between 1 and 2 inches of the clay substrate over either gravel or fired clay. These are flow throughs so I don't have to worry about too much calcium.. (Brent Brock made a comment on this) but even in recirculating tanks I haven't seen too much of an issue with it. 
So far I have mosses, various ferns, bromeliads, and some kind of peperomia growing in the clay without an issue. 

Ed


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## nish07

Can someone give me an idea of how long it takes for this stuff to dry. Also, what the best thickness is to paste it out (assuming it was on some sort of semi permeable surface like a screen with newspaper over it).

I would need to make a ton Brent's stuff for my tanks and I'm trying to find out what the fastest and most efficient method for it would be.

-Nish


----------



## Jason

It only takes only a few days for this stuff to dry, especially since it is less humid here in the northern states. When I made mine, I just added enough water to make it stick together slightly. The less water you add the better, I think. I tried to make some of Matt's recipe, but I think I added too much water and it never dried out and molded over.

I dried it on burlap (but found a screen top to work the best), elevated with a fan blowing over top. I think I have a post about the process somewhere, let's see. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35767-dyi-my-take-clay-based-substrate.html

It really only took me 20 minutes to mix up and make a batch to fill a 20 vert. It is hard to do any more, cause the mixing would be almost impossible. I actually had to transfer it back and forth from one bucket to another to get it all mixed up properly.

I wouldn't jump a head and change over all your tanks, try it in one or two and see how you, your frogs and your microfauna like it. It is nice to compare it to another set up I think. Oh, and No I don't have any in a tank yet.


----------



## nish07

Thanks for the reply,

I need to find out where to get these screens to push the clay through. I'm going to attempt brent's recipe. Also, I need to find a source for screen large enough to spread out quite a bit at once.

Still, with Brent's recipe, I need to know how long it'll take to dry (when the optimum time for breaking it apart would be). I need to make approximately 15-20 gallons of it so if I can make it and store it in a paint bucket (with lid) that'd be best.

Also, is there any reason I should not substitute Koi Bentonite instead of kitty litter? Does bentonite kitty litter contain sodium bentonite?

-Nish


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## Ed

Use a large aquarium screen to push the clay through. You can use a large paint scraper or putty knife to make it easier to push through the screen. If the clay is sticking to the scraper too much you can smear or spray a little vegetable oil on the knife to reduce sticking or keep rinsing it off. 

Usually kitty litters are a mixture of both sodium and calcium bentonite. 

Ed


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## Jason

I never sent mine through a screen and I think it is not needed if you add minimal amount of water, just get it to start clumping. I let mine dry as is and broke the larger chunks apart with my hand, before I used the acrylic fortifier.

The key is to allow microfauna to start to colonize and make cavities before the clay breaks down. It really does not matter how perfect you make it, because it will turn to mud after a while anyway, unless you use too much fortifier (which is defeating the purpose, you want the microfauna to be able to uptake the nutrients). If you want firm clay chunks that never break apart use the fired infield stuff.


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## nish07

If it's all going to turn to mud, why don't I add something like infield conditioner (mixed with the baked clay) to allow for some areas for the microfauna to get to.

-Nish


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## Jason

nish07 said:


> If it's all going to turn to mud, why don't I add something like infield conditioner (mixed with the baked clay) to allow for some areas for the microfauna to get to.
> 
> -Nish


That was kind of my plan, I just wonder how it would settle out. Would all the "made clay" wash to the bottom, leaving the infield conditioner at the top ? It is something to try I think.


----------



## Ed

nish07 said:


> If it's all going to turn to mud, why don't I add something like infield conditioner (mixed with the baked clay) to allow for some areas for the microfauna to get to.
> 
> -Nish


I'm not sure why people think it is all going to turn to mud.. I have an test drip wall that has been set up and running now for several years without any stability issues. 
It sure hasn't settled to the botton of the tank and has been well colonized by mosses (I took the ferns out as they were overgrowing the system) and the bromeliad is spreading across it as well. 

In addition, I have several different clay variations set up in over false bottoms for months now and have not had it seep through the bottom of the false bottom (this is a red art clay and bentonite mixture). One of the variations is simply red art clay on top of a thin (like two pieces thick) pea gravel over the screen and then on top of that the clay mixture. Water does pass through as I made a air gap between the bottom of the false bottom and the top of the water level (before it drains out the bulkhead) and I can see it drip through. 

Ed


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## ChrisK

People could probably get a good idea by looking at Matt's gallery on frognet


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## tonying

I've produced a batch using a modified version of Matt's recipe. I started a new topic about it, you can read it here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...xperiences-slightly-modified-soil-recipe.html


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## bbrock

My original clay soil has been in action for over 3 years now so I thought I maybe a little update was in order. Overall the stuff has held up well but I think there is room for improvement. It still drains mist water off quickly but the structure has broken down noticeably indicating that fungi and fauna are not building structure as quickly as it is breaking down. This vivarium gets misted 5 times a day and I suspect that may be just too much water draining through to develop a nice crumb texture. But still, it is my favorite substrate I have used so far despite the imperfection. Another thing I've noticed is that the soil fauna seems to be more sensitive to reduction in leaf litter with this substrate. I got really lazy over the last year and let the leaf litter deplete quite a bit a few times. I noticed a crash in soil fauna which may be also realated to the decrease in pore space as the texture has broken down. I have recently begun "feeding" the soil more by adding a variety of fruit and vegetable scraps from time to time as well as keeping the leaf litter in order. I think feeding clay based soils may be an important component to get the most from them.

There are a few ways I think we could improve this type of soil. One would be to add a stable aggregate to improve drainage. Infield filler might be the ticket. I still have vivaria with cheap kitty litter that have been running 12 years now with no change in texture. I also think my original recipe may be too conservative on acrylic fortifier. I think in future batches I will try adding the fortifier to the wetting water rather than just spraying it on the surface of the dried particles. I think you could still get by with fairly low doses of fortifier but by adding it to the water, you would get better penetration and likely form a more stable aggregate. It would be nice to be able to test CEC at different doses of fortifier to see if there is a threshold where the fortifier seals off the clay so completely that CEC is lost.


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## nish07

With the amount of clay I need to fill so many vivs I was considering using more infield conditioner for drainage at the bottom. With Brent's recent post, I got an idea.

I was thinking of making a thin 1/2" drainage layer of infield conditioner. With two separate layers, I could make a checkered arrangement (roughly) of patches of conditioner next to patches of clay. Say, 1" layer that looked like a rough checkerboard. Over this layer I could alternate so directly over the infield conditioner, I could use clay and over the clay I could use conditioner (reverse the checkerboard arrangement). At the top of these two layers I could spread a thin layer of conditioner (1/8") and over that a 1/2-3/4" layer of baked clay. It would make the baked clay easy to remove and replace if things broke down while underneath there would be plenty of areas of calcined clay dispersed between baked clay for the microfauna to get to.

-Nish


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## Ed

bbrock said:


> It would be nice to be able to test CEC at different doses of fortifier to see if there is a threshold where the fortifier seals off the clay so completely that CEC is lost.


When I spoke to my dad about this, he wasn't sure about the CEC (since in his quote we were trying stuff with the acrylic that is untested to his knowledge (for those who are curious as to why I would consult him, he used to be a bigwig in a polymer and paint R&D division before he retired) but thought that this probably wouldn't happen until you added enough to basically prevent it from reacting with the water (water proofing, now that has apparently been done with clays in some R&D as he has some comments on that aspect but that is a lot more than we want from it...) 

Ed


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## skylsdale

My substrate (as per Brent's recipe) has been running for over a year and a half at this point, and as I've said before, the structure has broken down and coagulated quite a bit since I first put it in. However, it does still drain well (worm tunnels probably help) and I have to agree with Brent: regardless of its "failings," it's still my favorite substrate.



bbrock said:


> Another thing I've noticed is that the soil fauna seems to be more sensitive to reduction in leaf litter with this substrate. I got really lazy over the last year and let the leaf litter deplete quite a bit a few times. I noticed a crash in soil fauna which may be also realated to the decrease in pore space as the texture has broken down. I have recently begun "feeding" the soil more by adding a variety of fruit and vegetable scraps from time to time as well as keeping the leaf litter in order. I think feeding clay based soils may be an important component to get the most from them.


I've noticed this same thing as well--over the last few months I haven't been adding as much leaf litter and I've noticed a decline in microfauna as well. However, I also have more frogs in their than I have in the past, so it might be getting consumed more than usual. Regardless of how little fauna I think is in there, I'm always amazed when I turn over some leaves or check down by the surface of the soil how many critters are still crawling around in there.



> One would be to add a stable aggregate to improve drainage. Infield filler might be the ticket.


I'm still unsure about this. I've been using the Turface medium for about a year now. It makes me nervous with larger frogs: my auratus seem to consume it fairly regularly and I've found it in their feces. It is very sharp-edged and I worry about it doing some sort of internal damage. For smaller species it probably isn't a problem as it is too large for them to easily consume with prey items. However, if the infeild conditioner particles can be bound up and secured with the other clay into "super particles"...that might be a different story.



> I also think my original recipe may be too conservative on acrylic fortifier. I think in future batches I will try adding the fortifier to the wetting water rather than just spraying it on the surface of the dried particles. I think you could still get by with fairly low doses of fortifier but by adding it to the water, you would get better penetration and likely form a more stable aggregate.


I'm about to make another batch using some local soil and I'm going to try including the fortifier with the wetting water as well--spraying it didn't seem to do much for me. Regardless, I can officially say that I am now 100% organic substrate free! All my tanks now have some form of soil or clay type substrate in them with a heavy load/layer of leaf litter, which I think is much healthier for the frogs and the vivarium as a whole.


----------



## Ed

skylsdale said:


> I've noticed this same thing as well--over the last few months I haven't been adding as much leaf litter and I've noticed a decline in microfauna as well. However, I also have more frogs in their than I have in the past, so it might be getting consumed more than usual. Regardless of how little fauna I think is in there, I'm always amazed when I turn over some leaves or check down by the surface of the soil how many critters are still crawling around in there.


I've been thinking about this off and on for awhile now and I think a way around this is to have some depressions in clay that have some ABG mix or leaf litter compost in them (about 1/4 to 1/2 inch) to simulate aggregates of organic debris that can serve as refuges for the fauna to hole up in when leaf litter gets low. 

Ed


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## tonying

How about moss? I've planted a mat of sphagnum moss on my soil, both to protect the soil from erosion and exposure and to provide a buffer for the microfauna. Then I've put leaf litter on top of the moss. In my experience, the microfauna can find both refuge and food in the moss. Probably not enough to sustain them long-term but enough to balance fluctuations in leaf litter supply.


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## bbrock

tonying said:


> How about moss? I've planted a mat of sphagnum moss on my soil, both to protect the soil from erosion and exposure and to provide a buffer for the microfauna. Then I've put leaf litter on top of the moss. In my experience, the microfauna can find both refuge and food in the moss. Probably not enough to sustain them long-term but enough to balance fluctuations in leaf litter supply.


Part of the hypothesis surrounding clay-based soils is that contact with the mineral soil, or incidental consumption soil stuck to critters consumed, may provide a natural source of minerals (especially calcium) and therefore make the frogs less dependent on proper supplementation. It seems like a layer of sphagnum would provide a good substrate for soil fauna and make the system more productive, but might also reduce the effectiveness of mineral transfer (if it even really happens). I think it probably does though - how else would frogs in the wild get their minerals?

Depressions with organic matter should work well. You could even simulate a spot where litter naturally accumulates. I think part of what may be happening is that we are more accurately replicating tropical soil conditions so competition for organic matter becomes fierce and decomposition rates increase.

I also think Nish's approach would be interesting because a checkerboard of porous aggregate and less porous clay might promote the distribution of organic matter as artrhopods move through the aggregate and deposit frass.


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## tonying

The microfauna (isopods, tiny spiders, springtails, snails, etc.) I have tend to move up to the moss to feed and after a misting, then retreat back into the soil. Although I don't have any data to back it up, my observations indicate that the presence of a sphagnum "mat" should not impede the exposure to mineral-rich soil by invertebrates. Then again, exposure may not be the only factor here, I suppose that the inverts could "rub off" minerals by moving through the sphagnum layer.


----------



## markbudde

Does anyone have a reference showing that frogs get calcium by ingesting it external to the inverts they eat? I would think you could do this by flushing the stomach contents of a frog, separating the bugs from everything else and seeing where there is more calcium.


----------



## bbrock

Your right Tony, it's hard to say what the actual effect of a sphagnum layer would be. When this whole project started, we were thinking a lot about calcium being in solution in the soil and frogs possibily absorbing it directly through the skin. We know they can absorb calcium through the skin based on successful calcium gluconate treatment for siezures. That's a long way from knowing that a calcium enriched soil would provide the same benefit but it seems plausible given the levels of soil moisture and acidic conditions that I would think would put calcium into solution. I do know that the leachate from my first soil batch was very basic a year into the experiment indicating that lime was still leaching out of the soil. But it could be that critters moving through the soil and the sphagnum mat are just as effective at moving mineral to the frogs.

Mark, I wonder if a better approach would be to use larger frogs and blood samples to test electrolyte levels. You could put a frog on a calcium defficient diet for awhile, take a blood sample, then put them on a calcium enriched substrate for a couple days and sample again. I'd obviously use a larger frog as the test subject.


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## Ed

On a purely anecdotal observation, fecals on anurans performed at work often contain a large amount of the substrate whether this is soil, peat moss or coco fiber. On occasion, the amount of these materials required a second submission. 

The frogs tongue is going to include particles of whatever is on/around the invertebrate when captured and this has been documented in a number of wildlife species so even if there isn't any hard evidence, its not that big a stretch of the imagination (see JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie) 

Note, I started searching various word strings after that post above and what I found is below. I was going to retype it in a less rambling fashion but am feeling lazy....

Some of the work may have alreadybeen done.. 
This abstract looks interesting 

SpringerLink - Journal Article

It is theorized that it is the source of the lead contamination noted here 
SpringerLink - Journal Article

There is an actual reference in Donoghue etal in Mader's Book and is I believe contained in the references there. 

Mark you may find this interesting as well 

Adams, R., S. Penderson, K. Thibault, J. Jadin, and B. Petru. 2003. Calcium as a limiting resource to insectivorous bats: Can water holes provide a supplemental mineral source? J. Zoo. London 260(2): 189–94.

Ed


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## Philsuma

ok....

I spent about 2 hours, editing, snipping, coallating, sizing pics ect ect of this entire thread. It's about 36 pages long in smaller size, 10pt font.

1. Does anyone wish to help me to properly finish editing it?

2. Is it "ok" with everyone that the material be re-diseminated? I removed all names and personal references...

It's a great thread with a ton of useful info....I think it would be a real asset to get it cleaned up and re-injected.

Thoughts?

Phil


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## Darmon

Philsuma said:


> It's a great thread with a ton of useful info....I think it would be a real asset to get it cleaned up and re-injected.


I second that motion


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## Philsuma

ok...I have it.....edited and cleaned up.

What should be done with it...sticky?....re-post?


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## Darmon

A sticky would be nice = )


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## davecalk

Darmon said:


> A sticky would be nice = )


I'll second that.


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## decev

I've just read this entire thread and I've come away with one question... about a year ago user Ed started an experiment with different types of clay, etc to see how they hold up. I'm wondering if that is still going on and how that it's holding up


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## Ed

They are still ongoing and are interesting. The interesting thing is that the clay is holding up much better under a heavy microfaunal load than a similar ABG type mix in cages side by side. The ABG type mix is actually breaking down and suspending in the water layer under the tank. 
It held up under a very heavy bioload of frogs.. oak leaflitter would last less than a week.. (and the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate were zero in the effluent from the tank). 

These were variations on mixtures of red art clay, calcium bentonite, peat and/or ground coconut hulls. 

I also have some tanks with Infield Conditioner running side by side as comparisions. 

Ed


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## skylsdale

My experience is pretty much the same as Ed's at this point as well. 

The more I use soil substrates (even locally collected ones) the less I like working with organic ones. I set a few tanks up a few months ago with organic substrates just because I needed to get them set up quickly...I'm already regretting it. Will have to swap them out with some clay-based substrates in the spring when it's easier to do so.


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## decev

Ed,

When you prepared your calcium bentonite substrate, did you make it by the same steps that you take when preparing for the background, with only the added step of pressing it through a screen? I want to make a clay based viv for my second viv and it would be nice to be able to make the background and substrate out of the same stuff and the same process.


----------



## Ed

decev said:


> Ed,
> 
> When you prepared your calcium bentonite substrate, did you make it by the same steps that you take when preparing for the background, with only the added step of pressing it through a screen? I want to make a clay based viv for my second viv and it would be nice to be able to make the background and substrate out of the same stuff and the same process.


I let it get mostly dry broke it up, rewet it enough that it would push through the screen, and then pushed it through the screen, let it dry again and then broke it up. Keep in mind that I am working on some different angles than attempting to provide a soil that functions as close to possible as the soils in the jungle. 

Ed


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## Bcs TX

I have a question; maybe somewhat off topic. My only downside to the clay method is it dries and cracks to create crevices in the back of the tank where the lights are, so I am constantly filling in the crevices. I have adjusted the misters to no avail. Other than hand misting the problem areas. 
Any advice or ideas?

-Beth


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## Ed

Hi Beth,

In future tanks, you can always use a different substrate strip up there like a section of cork panel or tree fern fiber with the clay background below it. Another option is to gently press wet sphagnum into it to increase the water holding properties and to allow it to wick water up from futher down in the wall (I'm not sure how well this will work but its an option). I haven't had that problem with it as I didn't run it up that close to the lights or used it as part of a drip wall. 

Ed


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## Bcs TX

No drip wall just cracks at the top of the tank under the lights. Hmmm... doesnt spaghnum really vary in its wet/dry environment.


----------



## Bcs TX

Ed, 
What is your technique? So you do not use the clay all the way up the back of the tank? 
Any pics?
-Beth


----------



## Ed

In the tanks where I am working with it as a background (like the 29 gallon), I stopped the background about three inches or so from the rim of the tank. I try to do this regardless of the background as prefer to have areas where I can tell the frog(s) are not located.. but the tanks that have it as background are/were drip walls. 

Ed


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## Bcs TX

Ed do you have any pictures?

-Beth


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## ChrisK

Bcs TX said:


> Ed do you have any pictures?
> 
> -Beth


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/33471-red-clay-substrate.html#post298873


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## Bcs TX

Thanks!
Have some ideas for my new tanks.
-Beth


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## froggerboy

what about the idea of spraying with a watered down solution of the clay on to a fiberous background like tree fern roots or coco fibers( much like the ones used to make hanging basket liners).The clay eventual builds up to form a soil layer, no noticeable cracking, and plenty of space for thing to grow and hide in. 
I'm currently clay substrate but I don't mind the cracking dry clay on top of the background. I'm trying to study how the moisture gradients effect the micro fauna and frogs. I'm trying this is a small 1ogal tank but I don't think it will react the same way in a larger tank.


----------



## Bcs TX

Very good idea. Hummm...need you to put it through the test. 
My concern is with the pums breeding that one of the froglets may slip into some of the cracks and get stuck.


----------



## Ed

froggerboy said:


> what about the idea of spraying with a watered down solution of the clay on to a fiberous background like tree fern roots or coco fibers( much like the ones used to make hanging basket liners).The clay eventual builds up to form a soil layer, no noticeable cracking, and plenty of space for thing to grow and hide in.
> I'm currently clay substrate but I don't mind the cracking dry clay on top of the background. I'm trying to study how the moisture gradients effect the micro fauna and frogs. I'm trying this is a small 1ogal tank but I don't think it will react the same way in a larger tank.


Blend it into a slurry and try dipping it like a candle as opposed to spraying it (I think it will rapidly dry and clog most nozzles). At least then you'll get penetration of the pores but this will also reduce the different ferns and mosses you can get from the treefern fiber (if you use treefern fiber as part of a drip wall, you get an interesting variety of growths) and the coating will be more even which will reduce cracking. In addition you can let it dry somewhat and redip it to fill the cracks. If you then press it to the back of the tank while still damp (and it remains moist/damp) the clay will adhere the fiber to the back of the tank. This will reduce the need for silicone or greatstuff and make breaking down the tank easier (if it ever becomes necessary). 

Ed


----------



## Matt Mirabello

I finally broke down my "IAD 2007 Soil tank"

Frognet.org Gallery :: Untitled :: DSCN1218

It was a Staten Island soil amended with iron oxide and pushed through a screen to make small spheres of soil.

I let the soil completely dry out. After drying out I crumbled it in my hands and it felt very similar to soils in Panama I had done this too. One area of the tank where the soil compressed was underneath the rotting log where the frogs stayed. I am not sure if I may have compacted this myself when I set it up (to make a depression for the frogs) or if it had to do with the frogs or being under a log. The dried soil from there was compacted and broke in flakes and chunks instead of collapsing into lots of smaller aggregates.


----------



## ab1502

anyone have any testimonials that would lead me in one direction? I can't decide if I want to make Brent or Matt's recipe, and I don't really want to go through the trouble of making both.


----------



## ChrisK

ab1502 said:


> anyone have any testimonials that would lead me in one direction? I can't decide if I want to make Brent or Matt's recipe, and I don't really want to go through the trouble of making both.


It definitely is trouble to make, but worth it in my opinion, to maximize the usage of what I make, lately on top of the drainage layer and lanscape screening I put a layer of sphagnum moss, about an inch and a half of infield conditioner, then about a half inch of Matt's from scratch recipe, then lots of leaf litter on top, with pockets of peat moss where plants are planted.


----------



## ab1502

How has matt's held up for you? I have managed to locate all ingredients for both Matt's and Brent's recipes locally. Do you do that just to save on the amount made, or would a few layers of the clay substrate work just as well?


----------



## ChrisK

When it gets wet it congeals a little which the leaf litter on top helps with (the infield conditioner might help too), the infield conditioner is like a clay substrate too so I use it to save on the amount of recipe I use.


----------



## ab1502

How long have you had it going? Did you inoculate with outside soil, and how are all the bugs? Would you make all your future vivariums with it?


----------



## ChrisK

No outside soil, seems to do good with the bugs (especially with tree fern backgrounds which they seem to stay in also) and yeah I'm going to keep using it if for no other reason than it doesn't break down like the "planting" substrates and the infield conditioner is so cheap and easy to just scoop out of the bag and into the tank.


----------



## ab1502

Awesome, decision made. I am just going to fill a 24" X 18" X 24" exo-terra with it, but I am also going to be converting to a clay background for this one, I will probably have some sections of tree fern panel in the background as well. Jumping on the clay train head first.


----------



## ab1502

Did you add mycorrhizae or anything to yours?


----------



## ChrisK

Nothing like that, only experimented with adding sand and peat moss into the recipe as I was mixing it up


----------



## Ed

ab1502 said:


> Did you add mycorrhizae or anything to yours?


I haven't done this yet but I intend to do so in the future. You can actually get mycorrhiza as a seperate soil amendment. 

Ed


----------



## ab1502

I saw that, do you know what type of stores would carry micorrhizae?


----------



## skylsdale

I thought Brent had listed some possible sources...if not, I think it was discussed in the Frognet archives. I just grab handfuls of soil from my backyard near/around coniferous trees to get a good diversity of micorrhizal fungus (and lots of other goodness).

I finally phased all of my tanks over to a soil substrate of some sort--there's no way I could use it again. It's like night and day.

I have a tank with infield conditioner that has been up and running for around 3 years now...and it's by far my favorite tank and seems to be the best functioning. I've introduced all sorts of things in there to experiment with (some good, some bad) and ironically it is the healthiest: I think things are in a good balance and populations are fairly stable.

One thing to keep in mind is that you're feeding the soil on these tanks: you will go through lots of leaf litter, compost, etc. as it's surprising how quickly things on the surface decompose with such healthy populations of microinvertebrates.


----------



## iljjlm

ab1502 said:


> I saw that, do you know what type of stores would carry micorrhizae?


I got mine from an Ace Hardware store. It was about 2-3 years ago (whenever this thread started), so don't know if they still carry it or if I still have any. I'll check and get back to you.

Dave


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## ab1502

I live in central Texas, there are a few areas here with clay soil and conifers, I would take from here but chytrid scares me. Temps are consistently
90+ here and can get 100+, is this hot enough that chytrid shouldn't be much of a worry?


----------



## skylsdale

You would probably be best ordering some or purchasing it somewhere locally. Using any materials from outside is taking a calculated risk...so it's one you have to weigh and consider for yourself whether or not it's worth it. 

I collect my inoculations from areas that seem to be pretty scarce as far as amphibians...but there is of course no way to know for sure that it's safe, or whether chytrid is present in the populations/ecosystem.


----------



## ab1502

Would adding an acrylic fortified to matts recipe while wet or sprayed on after have any bad effects? Or can this soil hold it's aggregates together sufficiently?


----------



## skylsdale

It's hard to say: keep in mind that this is all still in an experimental phase. Brent and I realized that we didn't use enough in our mixtures and things congealed. However, that didn't seem to affect the microfaunal populations. Matt's batch seemed to hold pretty well without it. It's up to you...if you do, give it a try and let us know how it goes!


----------



## jeffr

In Brents recipe he uses soil from the outside. There is no way I could do that where I live. What would be a good replacement?


----------



## ab1502

I will mix up some of Matts with some acrylic fortifier, now I just need to decide if I want to do it while mixing everything together or sprayed on after. Any suggestions?

Will this EPK work for Matt's recipe? This is what the pottery store gave me when I asked for kaolinite
http://yfrog.com/ccphotofwj


----------



## skylsdale

I would try it while mixing. Spraying it on after seemed to not be very effective.

However, the purpose of the fortifier in the recipe Brent and I used was only to hold the particle shape long enough for the natural processes within the tank to take over and encourage the particalization to occur. But still, I would use more than recommended and mix it in to the substrate rather than spray it on afterward.


----------



## jeffr

skylsdale said:


> I would try it while mixing. Spraying it on after seemed to not be very effective.
> 
> However, the purpose of the fortifier in the recipe Brent and I used was only to hold the particle shape long enough for the natural processes within the tank to take over and encourage the particalization to occur. But still, I would use more than recommended and mix it in to the substrate rather than spray it on afterward.



Could you use calcium bentonite instead of the fortifier and achieve the same results??


----------



## ab1502

jeffr said:


> In Brents recipe he uses soil from the outside. There is no way I could do that where I live. What would be a good replacement?


adding your springs, woodlice and whatever inverts you can get your hands on separately as well as adding a mycorrhizae soil additive.


----------



## Dendro Dave

jeffr said:


> Could you use calcium bentonite instead of the fortifier and achieve the same results??


I don't know about that particular form of calcium, but I can tell you that many mosses seem to react badly to hard water and calcium from supplements that are in their substrate. Just something to consider.

Wiki says this about that form... (don't know if this well help at all)

"Calcium bentonite is a useful adsorbent of ions in solution.[2][3] as well as fats and oils, being a main active ingredient of fuller's earth, probably one of the earliest industrial cleaning agents.[4] Calcium bentonite may be converted to sodium bentonite (termed sodium beneficiation or sodium activation) to exhibit many of sodium bentonite's properties by a process known as "ion exchange" (patented in 1935 by Germans U Hofmann and K Endell). Commonly this means adding 5-10% of a soluble sodium salt such as sodium carbonate to wet bentonite, mixing well, and allowing time for the ion exchange to take place and water to remove the exchanged calcium. [citation needed] Some properties, such as viscosity and fluid loss of suspensions, of sodium beneficiated calcium bentonite (or sodium activated bentonite) may not be fully equivalent to natural sodium bentonite.[5] For example, residual calcium carbonates (formed if exchanged cations are insufficiently removed) may result in inferior performance of the bentonite in geosynthetic liners[6]"


----------



## Ed

I have an enclosure with a calcium bentonite drip wall that is solid moss... the system has been set up for many years now.. 
The background consists of a mixture of the bentonite and peat moss. There are a couple of osmunda fiber pieces one of which actually grew a treefern that I had to remove as it was literally overtaking the tank and starting to push the top up. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

jeffr said:


> Could you use calcium bentonite instead of the fortifier and achieve the same results??


No. The idea behind the addition of the fortifier was to hold the substrate together into small clumps until the fungi and bacteria as well the microfauna had a chance to establish and hold the particles together. The reason the acrylic fortifier was used in the limited amount as if enough is added it will actually prevent water penetration into the clay. In the smaller amounts it doesn't polymerize and is rapidly decomposed by the microbial fauna. 
Adding the bentonite will simply act as more clay and not achieve the same desired result. 

In Matt's recipe the addition of the corn starch and other easily broken down materials is an attempt to get this to happen much more rapidly. 

Ed


----------



## jeffr

Thanks Ed. I thought the calcium might help hold the particles together. I want to attempt this in a small growout tank


----------



## Chopper Greg

Just dropping a note.....

I was doing some research on clay and calcium, when I found this little blurb on Wiki, about NASA using a type of red clay to provide nutritional calcium to astronauts:

_The effects of weightlessness on human body were studied by NASA back in the 1960s. Experiments demonstrated that weightlessness leads to a rapid bone depletion, so various remedies were sought to counter that. A number of pharmaceutical companies were asked to develop calcium supplements, but apparently none of them were as effective as clay. The special clay that was used in this case was Terramin, a reddish clay found in California. Dr. Benjamin Ershoff of the California Polytechnic Institute demonstrated that the consumption of clay counters the effects of weightlessness. He reported that "the calcium in clay ...is absorbed more efficiently ... [clay] contains some factor or factors other than calcium which promotes improved calcium utilization and/or bone formation." He added, "Little or no benefit was noted when calcium alone was added to the diet"_ ( Medicinal clay - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )​
Doing some further checking I found that Terramin clay ( or stuff claiming to be Terramin ) is currently in demand in some areas of the health food industry and as such is available on-line - even at Amazon.com ......

It might be worth exploring.

Greg


----------



## ab1502

how well have peoples plants been rooting in the clay based substrate? It feels like its taking a bit for mine to get established.


----------



## Dancing frogs

ab1502 said:


> how well have peoples plants been rooting in the clay based substrate? It feels like its taking a bit for mine to get established.


Not very good at all...in my limited experience. So far I've only worked with Matt's from scratch recipe though.
Takes way longer than in an ABG tank, and more limited options.
Not saying it's impossible, just harder...I've seen very nice moss growth in the wild around here on what appears to be pure clay.


----------



## tonying

It's been taking longer for my plants too, and some don't like it at all. However, I think that a layer of humus will rectify that issue. It's been some time since I last planted anything in my clay and by now it's covered with a pretty substantial layer of humus, the result of springtails breaking down the leaf litter. If I planted something now, I think it would fare considerably better. With the exception, of course, of plants that do not appreciate the pH and mineral levels associated with the clay.


----------



## ab1502

Did either of you add mycorrhizae? The test viv I have the substrate in now has had no mycorrhizae added, but the batch I am making now will. I think the mycorrhizae may help.


----------



## Ed

tonying said:


> It's been taking longer for my plants too, and some don't like it at all. However, I think that a layer of humus will rectify that issue. It's been some time since I last planted anything in my clay and by now it's covered with a pretty substantial layer of humus, the result of springtails breaking down the leaf litter. If I planted something now, I think it would fare considerably better. With the exception, of course, of plants that do not appreciate the pH and mineral levels associated with the clay.


There are some real differences in plant growth in tanks where the clay can really drain.Here are a couple of pictures from one of my clay tanks.. The bromeliad was rooted directly into the clay (red art/bentonite mix with a thin layer of red art/bentonite/peat). The shot of the roots are those that the bromeliad has grown through an inch of clay, a half inch air gap and into the water. 

Ed


----------



## jeffr

I made Matts recipe. I used a layer of infield conditioner under the clay. Its a 20 gallon high. I seeded with springtails already as well. Matt if you ever read this I give you a lot of credit. This was tough


----------



## Matt Mirabello

I am catching up on this thread since I have been getting a lot of PMs about this topic. The tank pics above look great. How is it holding up?

more to come soon.


----------



## jeffr

Thanks Matt. Its doing good. Broms growing in it, springs doing very well


----------



## frogface

I want to add the low rent version of the clay substrate.

Clay kitty litter, peat moss, coco fiber, calcium, water, mixed in a bucket. Spread out thin and left to dry. Crushed up into small pieces and used as a substrate over LECA. Leaf litter on top. Seeded with springs and isopods. 

This was 3 or so months ago. The substrate is holding up. The springs and isopods are going crazy under the leaf litter. 

I can't say how much the plants like it. This tank is a pothos only tank, and that stuff will grow in anything. 

I'll try to get some pics but my camera is a point and shoot and doesn't do close up very well.


----------



## JrayJ

I just went through this whole thread and probably missed it, but where do I find calcium carbonate?

From what I have read bentonite is used for kitty litter. How can you tell if it's a calcium bentonite or a sodium bentonite?


Thanks,


----------



## ChrisK

JrayJ said:


> I just went through this whole thread and probably missed it, but where do I find calcium carbonate?
> 
> From what I have read bentonite is used for kitty litter. How can you tell if it's a calcium bentonite or a sodium bentonite?
> 
> 
> Thanks,


Calcium carbonate is basically Repcal or any of those, in pottery supply stores I think it's called whiting.

I think most kitty litter is sodium bentonite, not too sure though.


----------



## ChrisK

Histrionicus tank using Matt's recipe:


----------



## rlove250

Great thread. I'll be keeping an eye on it for a while and read others before I jump into this, but it seems to be the best option. I've got some of my assumptions and/or questions bellow after reading this.

* To add the mycorrhizae, you should add it into the clay mixture during production and not sprinkling it on after.
*This substrate will not hold it's original structure for long, but it should hold it long enough for mycorrhizae and microfauna to aerate it (or do they actually form new structures around the clay to stabilize it?
*These recipes can be used as backgrounds as well, but add sphagnum moss and or coco fiber to give it better structure and water retention.
*For the calcium carbonate you can use reptical as a substitute
*Plants don't grow as well in this substrate. (easy fix is to form pots into the background and use plant soil in those spots.
*I have a worm composter, would it be beneficial to add the microfauna from there into the substrate, i would use the white worms not the red wigglers.

*A main difference between using these methods and buying planted aquarium substrate is the readily available calcium and structure. As Aquarium substrate must hold up under constant water and has a less need for calcium. So if someone like myself who still has a full container of reptical wants to use it up, could use an aquarium gravel like ADA Amazonia, Fluval, etc could do so with no difference as long as they still plan on dusting with reptical. The aeration will still be ideal for the microfauna with aquarium gravel. But where's the fun in not making your own soil  

Again, great post everyone, hope these questions add to the discussion.

Randy


----------



## rlove250

To add onto the aquarium gravel question, I've been informed that one of the main components in aquarium substrate is Leonardite, which is rich in humic acid. As i breifly learned humic acid is important in root growth and nutrient uptake. A quick search shows that Humic or fluvic acid is available at nutritional shops. Would the addition of humic acid into the clay mixture improve plant growth, which currently seems to be a challange for some people?


----------



## Ed

rlove250 said:


> To add onto the aquarium gravel question, I've been informed that one of the main components in aquarium substrate is Leonardite, which is rich in humic acid. As i breifly learned humic acid is important in root growth and nutrient uptake. A quick search shows that Humic or fluvic acid is available at nutritional shops. Would the addition of humic acid into the clay mixture improve plant growth, which currently seems to be a challange for some people?


Actually there isn't any need to add humic acids as these are very available from the organics that are used in the tank, peat, coco fiber, leaf litter. 

Ed


----------



## paintballislife

Has anyone tried using a top layer of normal substrate (1" or so) just to get the ball rolling on top of the clay? I figured it would be a good way to help establish new plants/cuttings until leaf litter begins to decompose.


----------



## Ed

paintballislife said:


> Has anyone tried using a top layer of normal substrate (1" or so) just to get the ball rolling on top of the clay? I figured it would be a good way to help establish new plants/cuttings until leaf litter begins to decompose.


Preventing direct access to the clay by the frogs prevents some of the benefits discussed in the thread on calcium and nutrient cycling. 

Ed


----------



## Corwin

Would there be any advantage or disadvantage (Structurally or chemically) to firing the granulated clay at a low temperature, or calcining the components before granulating them?

I ask this because i have a kiln. I know what happens to clay when it is fired, but i do not know how this would affect what we want for a substrate for a frog terrarium. So i am curious if any of the following would provide a benefit for a substrate, or a detriment. Some of these may depends to a small degree on the clay body used.



100 C, Atmospheric water evaporated completely (water trapped between the platelets) This one, obviously is what is done when the clay is air dried, a kiln could greatly speed up that process, and make sure no trace of atmos. water is left.

between 300 and 800 C, carbon and sulfur is burned out of the clay, as well as any organics. 

Quartz Inversion happens at 570 C (The crystalline structure of the silica changes)

Between 350 C and 800 C Chemically bound/crystaline water is driven off. These last 2 steps give a result of Calcined Clay(Clay can also me calcined in powder form, and then mixed back with water to make the substrate) Calcined Clay is more like sand in behavior (and to a degree, texture), and will not stay suspended in water on it's own.



any hotter (900C +) and we no longer have clay, but ceramic material. So we have a porous ceramic (the platelets, and other components of the clay basically start to melt together but only to a certain extent, leaving the clay porous, and able to absorb water) Ceramic in this state will slowly break down over the years, but it will take a long time (years), and when it does it will break down to a sandy like substance vs mush. This is likely similar to the Lesco Infield products ive seen mentioned in this thread. Firing at this temperature may also be known as Sintering, or bisquing. 

Vitrification, the clay melts together to the point where it is no longer porous. The temperature for this completely depends on the clay so clays will vitrify at very low temperatures, others have to get to over 2400 F to vitrify completely. aluminum silicate crystals are formed in this state. Unable to absorb water in this state.


Also, i found a website that lists the CEC and makeup of Cedar Heights Redart clay [which most of you seem to be using], among other substrates (most of these are more use in the aquaria) http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm


----------



## Ed

A lot of us also use infield conditioner which if I remember correctly, a relatively low fired clay. It does break down slowly over time (but is very inexpensive and already in the right sized pieces),, 

However if you read through the above relating to this recipe http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...clay-based-substrate-thread-6.html#post211979 you can see that there is potentially some benefit to cooking the clay mixture (for the specifics, you should pm Matt). 

Ed


----------



## Corwin

From what i gathered from this this thread when i read it, was that matt's cooking (boiling really) was to Activate the Corn Starch and soy protein for it to create the long protein chains used to give a measure of structure to the clay. The boiling water would also activate the gelatin and dissolve the sugar. none of these would be possible without boiling the slurry.


----------



## ChrisK

I talked with Matt at a meeting about it for a while, from what I remember, he said it was theory, and also that the second compacting and breaking up process wasn't mandatory, he also said he went back to using his first recipe of just adding the oxides to the locally collected soil


----------



## Ed

Corwin said:


> From what i gathered from this this thread when i read it, was that matt's cooking (boiling really) was to Activate the Corn Starch and soy protein for it to create the long protein chains used to give a measure of structure to the clay. The boiling water would also activate the gelatin and dissolve the sugar. none of these would be possible without boiling the slurry.


I thought it was in here but apparently if you get it hot enough you also get formation of particles through the "cooking" process. You have to get it up to around 500 F. 
You'll need to get the details from Matt as its out of my expertise. 
Ed


----------



## ktwilliams_28

Has anybody tried Zoo Med Vita-Sand as a soil additive or Zoo Med Excavator Clay Burrowing Substrate? What is it made of or what could it replace in a soil recipe?


----------



## Matt Mirabello

Ed said:


> I thought it was in here but apparently if you get it hot enough you also get formation of particles through the "cooking" process. You have to get it up to around 500 F.
> You'll need to get the details from Matt as its out of my expertise.
> Ed


Ed, I may need to re-read my old posts. At one point I had contemplating putting the dry clay soil in an oven on the self clean cycle (~500 C) to get the particles to loosely chemically bind to each other. This would give the particles some more structure BUT it would also burn off any organic matter and the 500 C may not even be hot enough to cause any chemical bonds between the clay particles.

In the end I just use Staten Island soil. It is very red and reminds me of the tropical soil in color at least. The Staten Island soil is much more fertile. More importantly the invertebrates seemed to do really well in it, making tunnels and living just under leaves, logs, and pods.

I just recycled the soil from my IAD 2007 tank to 2 exoterras. I can upload pics soon


----------



## Feelin Froggy

Sorry to dig up this dinosaur but I've been reading so many soil threads the last few days I just had to ask some questions.

I'm setting up a few vivs for pumilio in the next few weeks. I used to keep them years ago but was never very successful at raising tads. With all the new knowledge out there I though I would give them another try. 

That said... I would prefer to not have to bathe my froglets with calcium liquids and instead would love to try calcium based clay substrates as their source. Or calcium rich food. 

Which brings me to my questions... I'll leave this disclaimer. I'm even more confused now than I was before.

Will using a clay based substrate actually provide a source of usable calcium? If so what is the most readily available that is the most beneficial. Going through that Chemistry experiment does not sound fun to me!! 

Would soaking leaf litter in a fluid calcium solutions prior to use in a viv provide any benefit. I feel like calcium enriched leaves would be eaten by inverts. Likewise would the frogs not come into contact with it and be to absorb anything beneficial that way? (That may be a question for another thread) 

That's about it. Just want to be able to control as many variables as possible. Thanks!!


----------



## Ed

Feelin Froggy said:


> Will using a clay based substrate actually provide a source of usable calcium? If so what is the most readily available that is the most beneficial. Going through that Chemistry experiment does not sound fun to me!!


It is actually how it would happen in the wild.. Virtually all of the invertebrates have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio regardless if they are captive bred or found in the wild. What changes this ratio is the calcium in the soil/substrate as particles of it can be found in and on the invertebrates in addition to the fact that the frog will consume substrate with the invertebrate and the ability to uptake calcium through the drinking patch. 



Feelin Froggy said:


> Would soaking leaf litter in a fluid calcium solutions prior to use in a viv provide any benefit. I feel like calcium enriched leaves would be eaten by inverts. Likewise would the frogs not come into contact with it and be to absorb anything beneficial that way? (That may be a question for another thread)


No for several reasons, 
1) high calcium diets generally are avoided by invertebrates as they can be lethal to the invertebrates. This is well documented in crickets and several other invertebrates. 
2) It will flush through the system when watered as you would have to use a soluble calcium salt and as such it would be pushed into the water layer as soon as it was heavily misted 
3) if you aren't misting frequently, the salt would be bad for the plants and could actually reduce microfauna as higher salt content can reduce the ability to osmoregulate by both microfauna and the frogs. 
4) for calcium to be absorbed it has to be slightly mobile and in solution. 

You also have to keep in mind that if the frog does not have sufficient vitamin D3 then the calcium cannot be properly metabolized. 

The clay recipes in this thread (as has been noted above) are aimed at making the substrate as close as possible to natural substrates and yes calcium is available in them. I'm not sure why you are calling it a chemistry experiment. I'm pretty sure the references on calcium availability were referenced in the above thread. If not, then read the Nutrition chapter in Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery along with the associated bibliography. 

I'm curious about your comment on rearing pumilio tadpoles... It gives the appearence that you were pulling the tadpoles and attempting to artificially rear them. Is that the case? 

Ed


----------



## Feelin Froggy

The reference towards the chemistry experiment was to reading all of the ingredients, baking, running through a screen, breaking it... Do the gooey pokey. Lol

Did I miss something when I was reading through the thread? Is there an easier way? 

If not what alternatives are there?

Thanks for the help!!


----------



## Ed

Feelin Froggy said:


> Did I miss something when I was reading through the thread? Is there an easier way?
> If not what alternatives are there?


Yes, you can dig up and use dirt from outside, but be forwarned that is a good path to adding animals or pathogens you don't want in the enclosure. 

The reason there are those procedures is because the goal is to get the substrate to simulate how it works in the wild. You can shove some wet clay and into the tank and it will kind of work, but without the pores and area for the invertebrates to retreat into and hide or walk around in, and for the frog to ingest while feeding it won't perform in the way that is wanted.. I'm pretty sure this was discussed in the above thread more than once. 

Ed


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## Feelin Froggy

I saw another member was using clay collected from Staten Island (Matt maybe??) I live in south Florida. I'm pretty sure we dont have much clay here. I'm not sure our soil here is suitable for use in a viv. It's very sandy and doesnt support a whole lot of diversity.

I was directed to a link that Doug (Pumilo) started with his clay method. Seems WAY easier to make than most of the other formula's I've read about trying. I think I'm going to get the ingredients put together and try making a batch.

Just one other question. Would it be beneficial to try liquefying some of the clay mix and rolling leaf litter around in it. Would that not afford the frogs and bugs more opportunities to come in contact with the clay? Just a thought.

Thanks for all the help!!


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## Ed

Feelin Froggy said:


> I saw another member was using clay collected from Staten Island (Matt maybe??) I live in south Florida. I'm pretty sure we dont have much clay here. I'm not sure our soil here is suitable for use in a viv. It's very sandy and doesnt support a whole lot of diversity.
> 
> I was directed to a link that Doug (Pumilo) started with his clay method. Seems WAY easier to make than most of the other formula's I've read about trying. I think I'm going to get the ingredients put together and try making a batch.
> 
> Just one other question. Would it be beneficial to try liquefying some of the clay mix and rolling leaf litter around in it. Would that not afford the frogs and bugs more opportunities to come in contact with the clay? Just a thought.
> 
> Thanks for all the help!!


I think Doug has a good method. The highest productivity comes from where the layer of leaf litter contacts the clay. This creates a zone in which conditions favor action by the microfauna. If you wet the leaf litter in the clay, you are changing the ecological function of the niches created (and if the clay covered leaves forms a thick enough layer, there will be a chance they can go anaerobic which will prevent the proper function). 
Nature has worked out a very good system.. it is very hard to improve on it. 

Ed


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