# Quarantine



## Guest (Oct 19, 2006)

Hi All!

We are just beginning our research into possibly building a pdf vivarium. I have found a ton of info especially those stickies - that makes it much easier. We are planning to do a costa rican biotope. I would like to have D. pumilio even though they are a more difficult species. 

Anyway my question is about quarantine. Do you all quarantine your incoming frogs? For how long? Do you do any kind of preventative measures - as far as meds etc? What about quarantine for plants?

Also is there someplace that I could find info on common diseases/sickness, signs/symptoms, and treatments?

Thank you all in advance.

Jenny


----------



## KEVIN S (Sep 4, 2005)

when i get new frogs i isolate them in a smaller tanks(about five gallons or so), 1 frog per tank. this is important so you can keep a close watch on them and make sure there is no issues. if your getting wild caught frogs it may be neccesary to medicate, other wise i never medicate unless i'm sure there is no other hope, in my experiance meds can be a gamble. as long as you get captive bred frogs from a good source you should have no problems. but keep in mind that new frogs stress very easily, and stress can lead to a number of problems ending in death. 

for info on disease and treatment check out the frye brothers:
http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/

for other care info you may want to check out patricks site:
http://www.saurian.net/

Kevin


----------



## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

As much as you would like Pumilio - I strongly suggest you consider starting with an easier and more forgiving frog. While your post notes you seem aware of this - there is good reason to suggest it. This advice comes from considerable practical experience from those that have tried before you.

You should only work with captive bred frogs - so no medication should be becessary. You should quarantine all of your incoming frogs. I do it for 45 days or more - others I know do it for 30 days.

You should know the source of your plants and be certain that no disease is coming with them. Ditto for contamination from pesticides / herbicides/ fungicides.


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

In my beginnings, I took a "if it aint broke don't fix it" approach, and didn't bother quarantining at all, and did/am doing ok.
Once my collection got a little larger and more valuble, I started taking a less lax approach.
Now every new frog is quarantined, and fecals run, and the frog(s) are quarantined for as long as I feel necessary.

One way to look at it is if you are not going to get fecals and/or skin rub tests for cytrid, you might has well not quarantine, as all you are doing is stressing the animal by putting it in (typically small) quarintine containers.


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

My q-tine routine is pretty inline with Kevin and Alan's. I keep my new frogs in 10g tanks, usually 2-3 per tank (depending on species and age). This is usually their home for the next month or so until I get their permanent tank done. During this time I watch their weight and behavior so I know what to expect from the frog and can be aware of that when it is placed in its new home. My tank setup is just a false bottom, coco fiber, and spaghanum moss (from bottom to top) with the addition of plants and/or leaf litter to suit the frogs. It's more than a typical isolation tank, but less than a full out tank, that's because of how long they're going to be in there. I don't medicate (haven't had to either), but I'm not against it if it's a necessary step. 

As to the Pumilio, it's a toss up. If you've had experience with other herps, particularly difficult, incredibly small (mind you, an adult pum is about the size of a nickle which is nano scale to the rest of the herp world), or WC ones, you just have to learn a few fine points and you'll be ok. If this is your first venture into herps, or maybe you've only kept very easy species, I'd advise getting a different species, and save Pumilio for later. This will allow you to learn the ropes of being a frog keeper, and can easily save you from a rough start with dart frogs. Either way, welcome to the frog bug. You'll never be the same


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "You should only work with captive bred frogs - so no medication should be becessary. You should quarantine all of your incoming frogs. I do it for 45 days or more - others I know do it for 30 days."endsnip

This is not quite true. I would suggest getting fecals done on cb frogs as well as wc animals. As people collect, swap and trade plants and terrarium materials as well as meadow plankton it is likely that frogs may be harboring one or more parasites. A simple quarantine period of 30 days or 3 clean fecals is not likely to cause issues. If you are worried about stress then set them up in a simple enclosure with some disposable plants like pothos and remove them for a couple of hours for a fecal (otherwise soil nematodes will contaminate and give false positives) before placing them in thier more permanent home. 
I have seen a surprising number of cb frogs come up positive for parasites. 

Ed


----------



## Guest (Oct 20, 2006)

Thank you all for your help and advice. 

A couple more questions then. 

Someone mention knowing the source of all plants and therefore not needing to QT. Do you have recommendations for where to acquire these parasite free lovelies?

CB vs. WC. So no preventative meds for CB? So what am I looking for as far as signs/symptoms while they are in QT? Am I mainly looking for intestinal parasites? Or am I also concerned about fungus, cutaneaous parasites etc?

I checked out Dr. Frye's site. The fecals he is running... are these any different than mammalian fecals? Am I looking for cocci? Anyone run their own fecals?

If no pumilio then my only real choice is D. auratus based on what I've found for distributors. So how do I know if I am getting the Costa Rican morph? Can I request this through specific vendors? 

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm involved with several online forums and its nice to actually have your questions answered and not just get beratedfor what you don't know. I think I'll stick around if that's all right


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If you really want to do something to prevent parasites, treat everything that goes in the tank as a potential vector for a parasite.
Porus goods such as substrate or wood should be baked boiled or preferably pressure cooked.
Most plants you can give a brief soak in a dilute bleach solution, folowed by a very thourough rinse.

I would recomend getting you're frogs straight from the breeder vs. from a distributer.


----------



## KEVIN S (Sep 4, 2005)

in my opinion parisites are going to be a potencial problem regardless of how careful you are, much like fish. i think that frogs are in contact with parasites on a day to day basis. when a frog is content and well cared for, it has an immunity towards parasites, thus preventing infestations. when the frog is stressed or not properly fed, its immune system will often fail, leading to parasitic infection or causing a parasite that the frog is carrying at the time to over take.

Kevin


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Someone mention knowing the source of all plants and therefore not needing to QT. Do you have recommendations for where to acquire these parasite free lovelies?


Click on the "links" link at the top of this page. I've not ordered from all of the vendors listed there, but many of them are known to have great plants. My personal favorites are T&C, Frog Broms, and Custom Ecos. 



> CB vs. WC. So no preventative meds for CB? So what am I looking for as far as signs/symptoms while they are in QT? Am I mainly looking for intestinal parasites? Or am I also concerned about fungus, cutaneaous parasites etc?


You are mainly looking for internal parasites. For behavior, you're looking for an alert frog that eats and maintains weight. Sitting in standing water, sudden weight loss, visible worms in the feces, and atypical bahavior are things to watch for. Things like excessive hiding and literially climbing the walls (especially when they're new to their tank) are fairly normal. 



> I checked out Dr. Frye's site. The fecals he is running... are these any different than mammalian fecals? Am I looking for cocci? Anyone run their own fecals?


There are a few people on here who do their own fecals. I've not done them myself, but when I asked for some info on the topic I was reffered to a site detailing how to do mamal fecals. So my guess is that they are similar. 



> If no pumilio then my only real choice is D. auratus based on what I've found for distributors. So how do I know if I am getting the Costa Rican morph? Can I request this through specific vendors?


Ask the vendor you're interested in is working with the Costa Rican local. There are four locals of green and black Auratus, so you should get one of these answers; Costa Rican, Nicaraguan, Panamanian, Hawaiian. For the past several months I was looking for some Nic Auratus, so when I saw some G&Bs on a table or offered for sale here the first thing I asked was "What local of green and black are you working with?". I did end out getting some after some good searching. 



> Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm involved with several online forums and its nice to actually have your questions answered and not just get beratedfor what you don't know. I think I'll stick around if that's all right Very Happy


Ha ha, you're addicted too


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " i think that frogs are in contact with parasites on a day to day basis. when a frog is content and well cared for, it has an immunity towards parasites, thus preventing infestations. when the frog is stressed or not properly fed, its immune system will often fail, leading to parasitic infection or causing a parasite that the frog is carrying at the time to over take. "endsnip

This is true in some respects however some parasites like lungworms (Rhabdias) can and do reproduce outside of the frog releasing infectious larva that then further infect the frog. This then results in a superinfection of the frog which can overwhelm and kill the frog regardless of the husbandry of the frog. The only way to detect the parasites before the decline and death of the frog is through fecal screenings. 
Parasitic infection does not hinge upon failure or competence of the immune system as these parasites are well adapted to evading the immunesystem and setting up an initial infection. However with some other parasites (other than those that function like Rhabdias), death occurs after a stressor which can be minor or major. 

Ed


----------



## tflanag1 (Aug 8, 2006)

Where/How does one get a fecal done on his frogs?


----------



## KEVIN S (Sep 4, 2005)

Ed said:


> snip " i think that frogs are in contact with parasites on a day to day basis. when a frog is content and well cared for, it has an immunity towards parasites, thus preventing infestations. when the frog is stressed or not properly fed, its immune system will often fail, leading to parasitic infection or causing a parasite that the frog is carrying at the time to over take. "endsnip
> 
> This is true in some respects however some parasites like lungworms (Rhabdias) can and do reproduce outside of the frog releasing infectious larva that then further infect the frog. This then results in a superinfection of the frog which can overwhelm and kill the frog regardless of the husbandry of the frog. The only way to detect the parasites before the decline and death of the frog is through fecal screenings.
> Parasitic infection does not hinge upon failure or competence of the immune system as these parasites are well adapted to evading the immunesystem and setting up an initial infection. However with some other parasites (other than those that function like Rhabdias), death occurs after a stressor which can be minor or major.
> ...



Ed 

how commonly are infections caused by Rhabdias like parasites. would you say they're one of the more common parasites, or do they just cause problems more often then other types. assuming there is no other hope, would this be treated with a deworming agent such as fenbendazole?

thanks for the info.

Kevin


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Often the actual nematode parasite is not identified via fecal sample as you are looking at eggs, embryonated larva and maybe hatched larve. Typically adult nematodes are needed for a specific identification. This would only typically only occur post mortum or if one or more could be washed out via a lung wash. 
As it is hard to identify the different nematodes as eggs, it is important to get the fecal done and treat the frogs for nematodes before placing them in the vivarium. 
Based on my experience and some conversations, I would say that nematode infections are common even in cb frogs due to multiple reasons. 

They could be treated with fenbendazole but you would have to make sure that you are giving them a theraputic dose (dusting the flies often doesn't cut it). This typically requires squirting it into the frog. If you cannot or do not want to do this then there are effective worming agents that can be dripped onto the back of the frog. 
If you are dealing with potential issues like Rhabdias then you need to place the frog in a clean sterile container after each treatment to prevent the frogs from being recontaminated. Post treatment you will need to submit at least two and preferably three fecals each at least 7 days apart. 

Ed


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

tflanag1 said:


> Where/How does one get a fecal done on his frogs?


Find a vet that will see reptiles and amphibians. I recently found out that Ohio has a department of animal disease that does this in addition to tissue pathology (for dead animals), so that's a possible route.


----------



## Guest (Oct 23, 2006)

Thanks again all for the help.

We have reef tanks and breed seahorses. In the beginning we didn't QT and I won't ever not QT any animals I have and especially if I am trying to breed. With fish anyway there are several preventative measures to take some meds others not meds... which is why I wanted to clarify.

I'll look into exotic vets and dewormers - both oral and skin absorbed. 

Thanks!


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

This site helped me out alot when I was looking for a vet and what to look for in a vet. http://www.anapsid.org/vets/index.html The links at the bottom of this page are probably going to of the most help.


----------

