# Paypal Buyer Protection/Live animals



## Tincman

Hello, Im sure this has been gone over so apologies if you already have full knowledge of everything Im about to write. For those that do not know this it is important to illuminate what really happens during a frog purchase each & every time you select "goods & services". Paypal typically offers something called "buyer protection" on purchases which makes it a good way to pay for things from people online that you may not personally know or trust. The protection offered allows you to challenge a transaction within 45 days, pretty much paypal will cover fraud pending an investigation if the claim is submitted within that time frame. However "buyer protection" does *NOT cover live animal purchases.* Meaning when you select payment is for "goods or services" provided, all you are really doing is handing 3% to paypal for a service they are failing to provide to buyers of live animals! This seems crazy & I refuse to do it. The best way to avoid being ripped off is to check the feedback of the potential seller you wish to buy from & I suggest you also use a credit card linked to your paypal. Unlike using your papal balance, a linked Credit Card purchase will allow for disputing a transaction should someone fail to ship your frogs or honor a Live arrival policy ect...put things in writing, investigate & buy from people that have good reputations/ feedback ect. But lets stop handing money to paypal for nothing essentially.


----------



## toostrange

I can understand Paypal not honering live arrival guarantee. But your sayin that if I paid someone and they never even shipped the animal,that I could not file a dispute over it?


----------



## Pubfiction

I don't remember the exact nature of this but in the past paypal has gone after people and threatened to terminate their accounts if they abuse the sending money to friends feature. I am sure if you actually read the TOS you are probably breaking rules you agreed to if you select that you are sending money to a friend when in fact they are a seller and you are buying a product and in all likelihood they are not your friend. (of course the definition of friend is very blurry) 

I have had cases where a seller specifically instructs me to select goods and services even in ROAK cases. My guess is that person had been in trouble with paypal. In addition while their may not be any specific technical reason you can be protected the seller has some protections too. 

So my point is if you do this at any noticeable volume you might want to read the user agreement yourself and make sure you are not breaking any rules. Just because you do not personally gain by selecting the appropriate class for a payment does not mean you can just give false information. Its sort of like taxes, you may not directly see the benefit and might easily circumvent them by putting something in a wrong class but it doesn't mean you can get away with it for ever or it is legal.


----------



## Tincman

Regarding Toostranges post, Sadly, Thats exactly what Im saying. I Had the exact scenario you brought up happen over a year ago with a high dollar purchase. Once paypal discovered the product in this instance was a live amphibian/animal they said I could not file a buyer protection claim. The buyer protection is the best security they offer & doest apply to live animal purchases. Had I not used a credit card through paypal I wouldve been at the mercy of a seller that flat out said hed refund me when he wanted to after 3 weeks of bs!lol You maybe able to understand them not covering live animals, but then dont charge us on either end of our hobby for a service your essentially not providing.


----------



## toostrange

I have used friends/family feature with a few purchases in past. But what I didn't know is that I was not being protected by PayPal when I used the goods/services option. Seems kind of a waste to charge fee with no protection.


----------



## Tincman

Regarding Pubfictions post, I agree everyone should read the user agreement on paypal, the buyer protection info is in there about live animals also not being covered. I dont sell frogs with any high volume but I could see how the by laws & IRS factor could potentiall become an issue for some.. Good point. I typically will only select friends/family with people I know.. The main theme of my post was not to urge people to use friends and family in every scenario blindly, but to be aware that they are not getting buyer protection while theyre paying for it & that the use of a credit card linked to paypal provides actual protection not otherwise offered. If you are skeptical of using friends/family with people you know but a buyer requests to receive the actual amount of money for a transaction you could always pay 3% more to compensate paypals fee or the seller can take the normal high road & just accept 3% loss which is his/her prerogative. I just feel everyone deserves to know that in this instance 3% of the funds dont provide any added security at all..


----------



## Tincman

Thats exactly what I mean, you would think that if they werent shipped that the protection would be there for you as a buyer, but they have it in their agreement that live animals arent covered in any capacity under buyer protection, shipped or not.. It is unfortunate..


----------



## phender

Pubfiction said:


> ........
> I have had cases where a seller specifically instructs me to select goods and services even in ROAK cases. My guess is that person had been in trouble with paypal. In addition while their may not be any specific technical reason you can be protected the seller has some protections too.
> .........


This is a bad guess. I request payments for plants be sent as "payment for goods" for a few reasons. (as do some very respected members of this board)

#1) Its what you are supposed to do. If I was a business taking a credit card, the card company would take 3 percent off the transaction. In most credit card agreements you aren't allowed to pass that fee on to the customer.

#2) If they send a "payment for goods", I can print a shipping label using Paypal with one click instead of having to get the person's address from them and going to the Post Office website and typing it on a shipping label.

#3) I get a slight break in shipping costs by printing my shipping label through PayPal.

#4) PayPal keeps track of my sales for me.

#5) If I ever need to refund someone's money for some reason, I can do that with one click.

So for an $80 sale, I pay $2.40 to Paypal and I get a dollar or so back on shipping costs plus the other conveniences listed above. For a $10 purchase, it get 30 cents taken off, but save more than that on the shipping costs. That's why I ask people to sent money as "payment for goods".


----------



## Patrick Nabors

Hey, thought I would pass on my solution to this issue...use a credit card to fund your paypal purchases. This gives you two layers of protection, and from what I understand Paypal is unreliable at best in their buyer protection services....but my credit card company has always been very helpful in this regard, and I've gotten my money back on more than one occasion when I was unable to resolve my issues with the seller. 
I realize this may not be the ideal solution for every one, but it sure works for me. 
Patrick


----------



## Bcs TX

Another option is to calculate the PayPal fee and add it to the purchase. Friends and family are not a way to go, no recourse on PayPal if a bad transaction.


----------



## Reef_Haven

Just wrote this for another forum, cut and paste to provide an update here as well. 


Paypal _did_ specifically not provide buyer protection for live animals. Their new policy is not spelled out anywhere on the user agreement or acceptable use statements, but I have been informed; Paypal does now allow buyer dispute for live animals, as they are trying to distance themselves from being thought of as solely an extension of Ebay. 
Always pay all transactions thru Paypal with a credit card as they will be your best line of defense. NEVER pay thru Friends and Family option. Some people might offer to discount your cost because it saves them the Paypal fees, but you also (for the most part) lose your right to file a dispute if things go bad. Always provide as much evidence of your dispute as possible in your initial filing, because you will not be allowed to add anything later and will not see the other parties response. Once a decision is made by Paypal *it is not final*. They don't tell you anywhere, but you can appeal the decision and add new evidence. It seems this can only be done thru the customer service line. It is really important that you include the information that "Paypal does now honor Live Animal claims" as many of the reps don't seem to be aware of this recent change.
I really think your chances of winning an appeal are based on the volume of business your account brings to Paypal.

Quote from Paypal Help Center

*Besides the items specifically named in the Acceptable Use Policy, does PayPal regulate any other goods or services?
Buyers and sellers are responsible for making sure that their transactions comply with PayPal policy and the law. Items bought and sold must be legal in both the seller’s and the buyer’s locations.
We prohibit any transactions that we determine (or suspect) might be illegal.
We also regulate transactions involving:
Items that fall into highly regulated categories or industries, many of which are also regulated by government and other agencies worldwide. One such category is animal and wildlife products, including the sale and delivery of live animals or any part of an endangered or protected animal.*
Not sure what they mean by Paypal regulates, I believe that to mean any animal shipment must abide by all regulations regarding shipping such as the Lacey Act and any common carrier rules, such as animals they agree to carry and packaging requirements.


----------

