# R. sirensis "Panguana Orange"



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Just recovered my first tad from this species. It was deposited in a pill jar burried at an angle in the substrate under heavy leaf litter. It is not my style to pull eggs, however, I was preparing for a rebuild... I turned a pile of leaves and saw the egg and then the tad, both deposited in the same pill jar. I stopped there. There are 3 more egg/tad deposition sites in this viv, and I didn't want to pull everything. 

If they are going to be moved, should I just pull the eggs and tads that are developing, or leave them in place and simply move the adults? Obviously she has been dropping feeder eggs, so... Will this tad respond to tad pellets, etc?

All my thanks!

JBear


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

That egg in the pill jar is fertile.

I pull all my tads and they do just fine. It's fun to watch them grow up.


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

In my opinion I wouldn't bother rebuilding your tank. The frogs are now pretty comfortable with it (producing eggs/tadpole) and moving/rebuilding it could cause a sudden change in reproduction. You can raise the tads outside their parental care. It's kind of neat to see them develope but after so many eggs, it's more work then fun. good luck with them.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Finally! Congrats Just...keep em goin!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I saw a frog(I think it was a male) transporting tonight! I feel the need to mention that these frogs really utilize these types of receptacles:

-I have them burried at an angle that allows sufficient water to pool in the bottom as a resevoir. I then cover them with layers of leaves. I have offered higher laying sites, but after an initial(my first) probing, only the glass jars and pill jars were utilized, both ground level.-

JBear


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I saw a frog(I think it was a male) transporting tonight! I feel the need to mention that these frogs really utilize these types of receptacles:
> 
> -I have them burried at an angle that allows sufficient water to pool in the bottom as a resevoir. I then cover them with layers of leaves. I have offered higher laying sites, but after an initial(my first) probing, only the glass jars and pill jars were utilized, both ground level.-
> 
> JBear


Mine also use low or ground sites.....I had some film canisters up higher and they have never used them. All the tads(17) I have pulled have been from canisters in the leaf litter.....

Why do you want to rebuild? If they are producing I would just leave them since they are comfortable enough reproduce...

JMHO.....Congrats on the tads...


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Azurel said:


> Mine also use low or ground sites.....I had some film canisters up higher and they have never used them. All the tads(17) I have pulled have been from canisters in the leaf litter.....
> 
> *Why do you want to rebuild*? If they are producing I would just leave them since they are comfortable enough reproduce...
> 
> JMHO.....Congrats on the tads...


To be honest, when I received the trio, I had no supplies for a false bottom. I didn't want them to spend any more time in the shipping containers though. So I hastily set up a viv with soil and leaves(blended) as the ONLY substrate. I then covered the substrate with an AMPLE amount of dead leaves. The idea was this would be temporary. They started throwing eggs almost instantly and I didn't want to pull them out while not knowing what breeding was taking place. Time has marched on and they are still courting/laying eggs/depositing tads/etc. but I am fearful that the lack of a FB will have a long term negative effect on the frogs and offspring. The soil is not water logged, but it is wet... This has me very concerned, thus the desire for a rebuild. 

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey JBear, I just wanted to throw this in for readers studying up on Sirensis. Different frogs will prefer different laying sites. Our greens lay some in the leaf litter but we get a lot of eggs deposited on the glass and in a horizontal, glass mounted film canister about 6 or 8 inches from the top.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> To be honest, when I received the trio, I had no supplies for a false bottom. I didn't want them to spend any more time in the shipping containers though. So I hastily set up a viv with soil and leaves(blended) as the ONLY substrate. I then covered the substrate with an AMPLE amount of dead leaves. The idea was this would be temporary. They started throwing eggs almost instantly and I didn't want to pull them out while not knowing what breeding was taking place. Time has marched on and they are still courting/laying eggs/depositing tads/etc. but I am fearful that the lack of a FB will have a long term negative effect on the frogs and offspring. The soil is not water logged, but it is wet... This has me very concerned, thus the desire for a rebuild.
> 
> JBear


I can see you redoing it then.......Probably be better off in the end....


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Constructed a grow-out viv for froglets. Also took some decent pics of the recovered tad. I know the grow-out needs some foliage, I will clean some tomorrow, lol! This grow-out is a springtail buffet... I am certain it will be very appealing. 

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Forgot to mention 2 more eggs. I read that they can deposit between 1 and 5. As of yet, for me, single eggs. Is this normal? All my thanks!

JBear


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

yeah, one or two is the norm


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

frogparty said:


> yeah, one or two is the norm


Do you use a different stradegy for a grow-out?

All my thanks!

JBear


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I treat all thumbnails the same. If I let the parents tank raise I pull when 1/2 adult size or better. If I raise tads up I just feed heavy on springs and especially stunted melanogaster I can dust with supplement. I also LOVE the purple isopods, and these crazy wormy isopods I got from Tor Linbo. Perfect size for a growing baby frog


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, I'm over here leaning against the wall, checking my watch, tapping my foot, and twiddling my thumbs, just waiting for the day you're ready to send some of those crazy, wormy, Linbo isopods out this way.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Yeah I know. I depleted my stock of it seeding new tanks. I LOADED my highland sirensis and vanzo vivs with them, and a ton of purple Isis and dwarf whites too. You are person número UNO on my list


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Yeah, I'm over here leaning against the wall, checking my watch, tapping my foot, and twiddling my thumbs, just waiting for the day you're ready to send some of those crazy, wormy, Linbo isopods out this way.


Doug, isopods are not pokemon, you DON'T, "Gotta catch them all"


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Hey bro, Doug can quit whenever he wants!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, it's not like I NEED bugs, I just pick a few up now and then to relax and unwind.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

JBear those froglets are gonna LOVE that leaf litter and the springtails living in it!!!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> JBear those froglets are gonna LOVE that leaf litter and the springtails living in it!!!


I was thinking of putting pothos in there, but I think I will stick to very simple(leave it as is). I will add some pill jar retreats here and there in the litter. These will be traded anyway, so the simpler the set up, the easier the retrieval! Thanks for the compliment! I have dried mushrooms seeded under the leaf litter as well. 

**I open a pack of "moonlight" mushrooms and just leave it at the very back of my refridgerator. They dry out fairly quick and can be stored in ziplock bags until fed out.**

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

With Sirensis and leaf litter, "easy retrieval" is a pipe dream! We just stripped our Sirensis froglet growout viv to see how many we had. After stripping I even went through the substrate. I was positive we found them all. However, with thumbnails there is really no positive so I threw the lid on anyway. An hour later there was one back in there hopping around, wondering where all his buddies went. He's going on fully grown too! Not a clue where he could possibly have been hiding. 
Plus, they know the leaf litter. They can dive into the litter and pop back up 10 inches away, in a split second!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> With Sirensis and leaf litter, "easy retrieval" is a pipe dream! We just stripped our Sirensis froglet growout viv to see how many we had. After stripping I even went through the substrate. I was positive we found them all. However, with thumbnails there is really no positive so I threw the lid on anyway. An hour later there was one back in there hopping around, wondering where all his buddies went. He's going on fully grown too! Not a clue where he could possibly have been hiding.
> *Plus, they know the leaf litter. They can dive into the litter and pop back up 10 inches away, in a split second*!


I appreciate the word of warning! It's a good thing they don't have bows and arrows.

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I appreciate the word of warning! It's a good thing they don't have bows and arrows.
> 
> JBear


Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about that, mostly they just use blowguns and...wait for it...Poison Darts!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

@Doug

Seriously though, the froglets will thrive in there without pothos cover right? I can't see why not... You are someone I respect a great deal, and would take your criticisms as help...PERIOD. Is there anything that you would be doing differently to ensure the optimal health of the froglets? After all, these will go to my friends... 

All my thanks!

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I have raised froglets in the past with no live plants, but I do prefer to set up my froglet tanks now with plenty of leaf litter and a simple pothos.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> I have raised froglets in the past with no live plants, but I do prefer to set up my froglet tanks now with plenty of leaf litter and a simple pothos.


Have you noticed the pothos rooting as diruptive of your efforts to collect a froglet/juv? I would assume that the anchoring of the roots would only fortify the frogs retreats. What I mean is the roots will tightly wrap around/through the leaves, thus creating permenant retreats, per se...

All my thanks for the help, truly!

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> Have you noticed the pothos rooting as diruptive of your efforts to collect a froglet/juv? I would assume that the anchoring of the roots would only fortify the frogs retreats. What I mean is the roots will tightly wrap around/through the leaves, thus creating permenant retreats, per se...
> 
> All my thanks for the help, truly!
> 
> JBear


That's entirely possible, but I'd rather be inconvenienced myself, in order to give them a little more security. Besides, with a tank that is bare except for leaf litter, you'll never see them. They will probably hide in the litter 99% of the time.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> That's entirely possible, but I'd rather be inconvenienced myself, in order to give them a little more security. Besides, with a tank that is bare except for leaf litter, *you'll never see them. They will probably hide in the litter 99% of the time*.


These aren't intended for "show" so that isn't a large factor in my consideration. I really appreciate the help!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> These aren't intended for "show" so that isn't a large factor in my consideration. I really appreciate the help!


Right, but I like to monitor their growth. If someone is lagging behind and seems a little skinny, they may need to be moved into a viv/grow out container with less competition for a while. Even with a more social frog like Sirensis, I have deemed it wise to pull smaller froglets on occasion to put them into their own home for a while. Sometimes a month or so in a glass topped shoebox can give a lagging froglet the leg up he/she needs.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Excellent point! I will be sure to monitor them very well! Thanks again!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I decided to move all the sirensis into the new viv. Hope it suits them. It's not very green, admittedly, but I think it will suffice. At least they no longer live in a stinky cespool of mud and ick. Gosh that was bothering me. Also may explain the lack of consistent breeding results. I find quite a few bad eggs during the tear down. Also found a clutch of 2 that look like they may be good still. They were attached to the top of a tiny tupperware hidden in the leaves. I have decided to try and care for the eggs outside as the move may result in the parents not finding them to transport, etc. Any thoughts on that? All my thanks! Would it be detrimental to rotate the cup so that the eggs are on the bottom side and not suspended from the top? What would be best? Again, all my thanks!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I made a great choice. I have never seen them as active and visible! With all this leaf litter and Springtails, I believe they think they are in Froggy Heaven... It has taken a lot of worry off of my shoulders now that they are in a suitable viv. I hope this will encourage better breeding results.

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Here is my egg set-up, and the two eggs. Any thoughts?

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Looks fine. Pretty much what I do when I pull eggs. I put the film canister in a tightly closed deli container with water on the bottom for humidity. Even when I use a Petri dish, I put in in the deli cup with water for humidity.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

The eggs reared artificially went well. One was no good, but the other hatched out on 3.19.12. I rotated the container the eggs were laid in so that they were vertical instead of suspended. As I was transfering the tad to it's rearing home, I saw an adult dropping off another tad in the viv! So now I have a few going, and they are still busy as always... Love these guys, just gorgeous frogs!

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

The frogs are hip to my pulling the babies... They are going to great lengths to hide the tads, even so far as to not use the best sites for deposition. Constant singing, and courting are the daily normal for them, which is simply a joy. I would recommend these frogs to anyone looking to get into thumbnail species'. They were my first(and currently only) thumbnails, and I have enjoyed the ease of which they can be maintained with success regarding breeding and general health. For some reason I had believed the stigma of thumbnails being delicate. They are just as hardy as the next frog, and are also more visible than people give credit to.

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Figured I'd add some pics.

JBear


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> The frogs are hip to my pulling the babies... They are going to great lengths to hide the tads, even so far as to not use the best sites for deposition. Constant singing, and courting are the daily normal for them, which is simply a joy. I would recommend these frogs to anyone looking to get into thumbnail species'. They were my first(and currently only) thumbnails, and I have enjoyed the ease of which they can be maintained with success regarding breeding and general health. For some reason I had believed the stigma of thumbnails being delicate. They are just as hardy as the next frog, and are also more visible than people give credit to.
> 
> JBear


Amazing how smart they are isn't it? My varadero have done the same thing I have't seen an egg or tad that could be pulled in months. I just find froglets hopping around the tank every couple months.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Azurel said:


> Amazing how smart they are isn't it? My varadero have done the same thing I have't seen an egg or tad that could be pulled in months. I just find froglets hopping around the tank every couple months.


Do you have a pool/pond? Where are they hiding the tads? I don't have a pool/pond, but I have several small tupperware containers, some pill jars, and some small, wide-mouth, glass jars hidden in the leaf litter for tad receptacles. I watched the 1 frog carry a tad all over the viv for a bit, and have yet to find the deposition site... I hope the tad WAS deposited somewhere, it escapes me where it could be...

JBear


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> Do you have a pool/pond? Where are they hiding the tads? I don't have a pool/pond, but I have several small tupperware containers, some pill jars, and some small, wide-mouth, glass jars hidden in the leaf litter for tad receptacles. I watched the 1 frog carry a tad all over the viv for a bit, and have yet to find the deposition site... I hope the tad WAS deposited somewhere, it escapes me where it could be...
> 
> JBear


No ponds just film canisters around the tank.....They have been laying and dropping off in broms and billbergia that have grown in to the background etc...That they cannot be removed not to mention vines and roots and such grown in and around them. There are 4 broms/billbergia that I know they are dropping off in although I can't see the tads, as far as where they are laying the eggs no clue....

It is a full planted 60g cube....So trying to pull the broms toget the tads or eggs would ruin it.....I figure let them do there thing they are much better suited for it plus I don't mind having them slow down. At one point I had 14 varadero and 17 R. sirensis 'orange' tads so I had planned on to stop pulling their eggs and tads little did I know they had already made that choice for me.


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

The only thing I can say is to make sure you keep the eggs oriented in a similar fashion in which you found them. Their are two poles in amphibian eggs and, though it doesn't seem to matter as much once more developed, if you were to change the orientation they will not progress usually. Good luck and congrats. Still waiting for my group to lay.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I have 4 tads in the water and 2 eggs developing... I actually JUST watched my male deposit a tad in a pill jar. THAT took far more effort than I had imagined. The tad was wriggling vigoroursly side to side, and the male was shaking his rump and kicking at it. The bond is quite strong holding the tad on... It was simply amazing... A joy to see...

The tad apparently was hitch-hiking from 4.9.12 - 4.14.12. I had to change the old water out before the tad accepted a deposition site he liked...

JBear


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

J,
do you think that changing the water had anything to do with that tad finally accepting it as a deposition site?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> J,
> do you think that changing the water had anything to do with that tad finally accepting it as a deposition site?


I really do. Plus the fact that I provided deeper water in several receptacles as well. The pill jar was quite full(more than 3/4) and tilted at an angle. As soon as the tad was dropped off, the male was singing... 

JBear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> J,
> do you think that changing the water had anything to do with that tad finally accepting it as a deposition site?





jbherpin said:


> I really do. Plus the fact that I provided deeper water in several receptacles as well. The pill jar was quite full(more than 3/4) and tilted at an angle. As soon as the tad was dropped off, the male was singing...
> 
> JBear


I have seen my Vanzolini carrying a tad in the morning, still carrying him when I got home at night. I changed the film canister water and the tad had been deposited an hour later when I checked.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> I have seen my Vanzolini carrying a tad in the morning, still carrying him when I got home at night. I changed the film canister water and the tad had been deposited an hour later when I checked.


I used 50% tannin water(oak/tad tea) and 50% spring water. The tad obviously enjoyed that blend. The receptacle chosen had no extra oak bits in it, while other options contained oak bits. The first several tads I pulled were deposited in the mini-tupps containing the oak bits. It is funny that way. The main problem was FFs falling in(in large numbers) and fouling the water. 2 of the receptacles were actually foul smelling(due to excess organics-dead FFs), and I felt a bit bad for even having them in the viv as an option. The tad was obviously less than thrilled about the prospects for a few days. Changing out that water was probably the best thing to do. I can assure the board, I will now adopt a time table where I will pull out and change the water every few days as a means to both recover tads(potentially) and to maintain suitable water quality.


JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

A pic of the newly recovered tad.

JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Update:

What a prolific trio...

Here is a pic of a newly recovered egg about ready to hatch. It was deposited on a Magnolia leaf. Also a tad with D. melanogaster for size reference.

JBear


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

So cool Just! Looks like you are doing something right


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

fieldnstream said:


> So cool Just! Looks like you are doing something right


Thanks Field! I just love these frogs! Beautiful, active, and vocal! Can't beat 'em with a stick!

JBear


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Dude that second pic is phenomenal!! Nice work breeding them and photographing the tads!!!


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Dude that second pic is phenomenal!! Nice work breeding them and photographing the tads!!!


Thanks Jon! I love taking pics, maybe one day I will be able to afford a Macro lens!

JBear


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> Thanks Jon! I love taking pics, maybe one day I will be able to afford a Macro lens!
> 
> JBear


That may be hard to save for in this hobby.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Some updates. Two(3.19.12) tads morphed yesterday(5.26.12). 1(not pictured-yet-) is a potential SLS victim. I will post pics in a bit of that 1.

JBear


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Sweet looking froglets bud!!!


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