# Paprika?



## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

I heard that Paprika helps maintain a healthy looking color on dart frogs. And not all species benefit from this.

I was wondering, what species benefit form this and which do not.

Specifically, do vents?


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

without getting into details, the yellow in the vents will benefit from paprika. If your looking to enhance red colors you will need something much more potent such as cyclopeez or natrurose


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Then, the paprika is good for species that have yellow colours only..? I´ve interest about this, because I have leucomelas


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

Thats what I've read, but I dont have the facts in my head to back it up. a quick search or two on the forums should lead you to where I found the info a while ago.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Leucs don't appear to need color feeding to maintain the yellow... 

And yes paprika doesn't really color up reds but as it does contain beta carotene it will work for some yellows. 

Ed


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## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

Thank for quick reply. This does help.


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

And what species benefit from paprika..?


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## godsgurl377 (Dec 18, 2006)

I heard the paprika will help leucs turn to and maintain more of an orange color rather than all yellow. Is this true? 

In the wild do they tend towards more orange, or yellow, or is it the same as in captivity... some are genetically more orange while some tend toward yellow?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Standard leucs come in a range from yellow to orange. Variation within a population! Some lines over the years were line bred to try and have them produce consistantly one color... that's why some are more consistantly one way or the other. Mix up the genes by breeding unrelated animals, and you get the nice range.

I give the supplement to all my frogs at this point, whether it would really tweak their color significantly or not. My femoralis might not be the brightest frogs ever, but you can see their flash marks half way across the room! lol. It doesn't always change the color in some animals, as much as makes it more intense... very cool.

The ones that really should have it in their diet... All the tinc group frogs that have a good amount of yellow or orange (especially Tincs like the various Cobalts, Regina/GO, Yellowbacks, Matecho, etc.) and probably leucs as well. Pumilio... especially BriBri and other forms with red. Epipedobates... anthonyi with Santa Isabel complex need it the most tho I give it to all my anthonyi and tricolor... red backed Epi species like Cainarachi. These are the most well known for being pale to muddy in captivity compared to wild animals. Supplementing with both peprika and naturose is needed, just add some to the vitamin/calcium powder when dusting, enough to turn it pink.

**A note about tincs... you may not think most of the tincs would need it, but that's because you're not looking at wild caught animals! These guys aren't supplemented often so almost all the animals you see pics of literally pale on comparison to their wild cousins. The yellow/orange on these guys should practically glow when seen in a tank... and all it takes is a little peprika/naturose to get them to glow 

Also, some frogs have shown that they get best coloration (or in one case, their coloration is determined only) with supplementation at the tadpole stage. I've used fish flakes with beta carotene (not hormone) "color enhancer" betta food to do this before (the equivilant of dusting with peprika) but also plan to include fish flakes with naturose in them into the diet now as well. P. vittatus range in color from a pale orange to bright red - this is purely due to diet as a tadpole! When fed the coloring, the frogs will morph, and stay, the bright red. With other frogs, this is purely a kickstart to reach full potential... the coloration will fade if supplementation doesn't continue during froglets. All PDFs require continued supplementation thru their lives to keep coloration, and most can "color up" to a decent degree in any part of life, except for the anthonyi (and possibly other epis). Anthonyi really only can be supplemented until around 2 years of age and their color is "locked" and generally stays that shade, and don't suffer significant color loss even with supplementation stopped like in other frogs.


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## godsgurl377 (Dec 18, 2006)

Kero, Thanks for all the great information! 

I guess if it doesn't have any ill side effects, and it may help... why not use it?!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Exactly. I use it in relatively small amounts and as part of the vitamin dust, so I'm not doing it a great amount. I've got frogs that people just don't understand why I would supplement them :roll: I figure they get this stuff in the wild, and if they use it for their colortation, I'll see some great coloration... otherwise, they just get light pink flies like everyone else LOL.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

although any source of beta carotene will work....as noted above through the use of flake foods containing beta carotene. 

Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> Standard leucs come in a range from yellow to orange. Variation within a population! Some lines over the years were line bred to try and have them produce consistantly one color... that's why some are more consistantly one way or the other. Mix up the genes by breeding unrelated animals, and you get the nice range.
> 
> I give the supplement to all my frogs at this point, whether it would really tweak their color significantly or not. My femoralis might not be the brightest frogs ever, but you can see their flash marks half way across the room! lol. It doesn't always change the color in some animals, as much as makes it more intense... very cool.
> 
> ...


(hands clapping)
Very nice!


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

As for pumilio, myself and several others have seen a very poor response to paprika or beta carotene for producing color. It seems the bri bri are a little easier to put color on than perhaps some of the other red morphs. But give them naturose and there colors scream. 

I recently gave some naturose to another frogger who is not happy with the way his histrionicus are coloring so hopefully we will learn some results soon.

Phyllobates bicolor (and probably terribilis) also respond to naturose by changing to an orange rather than yellow color. I wouldn't say it is better, just different and probably explains some of the color variation found in the wild. 

I'm also seeing some possible evidence that vittatus stripes respond to naturose fed as adults where, like Corey said, bet carotene seems to be needed in the tadpole stage to be effective. But at this point I can't say that a vittatus fed naturose as an adult will achieve the same color as one fed beta carotene as a tadpole.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

> I wouldn't say it is better, just different


And I couldn't agree more Brent, that's exactly why you can't say peprika and naturose are created equal... or use one as a replacement for the other. They are both xanthophore supplements, but hit completely different ranges in carotenes. It's not that naturose is better than peprika/beta carotene, but that they are DIFFERENT and thus will have different influences in different frogs.

Sure, a BriBri will go from a muddy color to a red-orange on peprika... or in the way I originally learned, from being fed pinheads fed sweet potatoes (to the point where their insides were noticably orange!). They turned a nice reddish orange color, but these guys are RED in the wild... peprika provided part of the range, but not enough. Naturose alone may do a better job on the reds, but for BriBri, I think you'd have to use both to get the full range. Other populations of pumilio may not use as much of the yellow/orange range, so peprika may be nearly useless. I'd probably still use it tho just to give them as much of a range as possible.


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I have had great luck with Naturose on my brazilian yellowheads, it really brings out the orange in them. It didn't take very long either to notice a huge difference. Even if I don't supplement for a couple months, they keep their color.
Scott


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> > Sure, a BriBri will go from a muddy color to a red-orange on peprika... or in the way I originally learned, from being fed pinheads fed sweet potatoes (to the point where their insides were noticably orange!). They turned a nice reddish orange color, but these guys are RED in the wild... peprika provided part of the range, but not enough. Naturose alone may do a better job on the reds, but for BriBri, I think you'd have to use both to get the full range. Other populations of pumilio may not use as much of the yellow/orange range, so peprika may be nearly useless. I'd probably still use it tho just to give them as much of a range as possible.


Paprika doesn't supply red coloration as there is a difference in the uptake of polar carotenoids (which the main reds in paprika are...) versus non-polar carotenoids. Polar carotenoids are poorly absorbed by animals and what is absorbed tend to be rapidly metabolized (which would indicate that it is unlikly to be stored for pigmentation) which is why paprika doesn't enhance the red pigments. However it does contain significant levels of beta carotene which will enhance yellows and oranges. 
As most of the supplement used for dusting insects already contains significant levels of beta carotene as the source for vitamin A, additional supplementation of beta carotene is not necessary for non-tadpoles. In any case, spirulina is probably a much better source for beta carotene than paprika and is already in a fine powder. 
There is also evidence that some crustaceans (and maybe other arthropods) can convert beta carotene and some other carotenoids into astaxanthin which is a good possibility why the frogs respond so well to it... 

see http://www.cyanotech.com/pdfs/spirulina/spbul50.pdf (for one example)

Ed


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## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

WOW sure do know your stuff, thanks you all.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

I personally would be very careful about using Naturose as your source of astaxanthine.
While it is an effective way to enhance color, it may also be quite hard on the animals, esp. at higher amounts (vit. A toxicity?). So while you have increased color there is a good chance you will see decreased lifespan. If you happen to go a little overboard you might even kill your frog. When naturose first came out it was promoted as a great product to tropical fish producers as it brought out colors that were at times past natural. After a few years it became quite clear that bloating was on the rise. Possible renal failure. Although renal failure is not normally associated with Vit. A toxicity. I believe even a lot of Asian discus farmers would use the product knowing that it shortened the lifespan of the fish. I myself have never had issues with my frogs bloating...except for the year or two that I experimented with Naturose. (which btw stopped completely when I stopped.) I'm not suggesting to people that it shouldn't be used, but instead that you should be careful and use it sparingly. Having a very brightly colored frog while nice, might not be as important as having the frog live a long healthy productive life. Esp. since a lot of our frogs are not from huge founder stocks. I think it would be interesting to see if the incidence of renal failure and bloating goes up in captive frogs as more people start leaning towards the astaxanthine in Naturose as the way towards creating a more natural looking frog. 

Just my 2 cents


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

sorry, since I'm writing this late at night, I'm not sure I'm being very clear and thorough.

I realize that there is still some debate as to things like do insect eating amphibian utilize vit A or beta-carotene. And I think there are some reports 
of animals such as chameleons exhibiting edema due to high vit. A toxicity.
I guess there is also the chance that what the High vit. A is causing is kidney enlargement. Whatever the case may be, all I had hoped to address was that I think there is some connection between use of a product with high Astaxanthine content and bloating/possible death. 

Thanks for reading. From now on I promise....I will try to post only during normal hours. lol!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The problem is that you can't vitamin A toxicity from astaxanthin... To get vitamin A toxicity would require that there be an excess of vitamin A as retinol in the animal. The conversion of carotenoids is controlled via feedback mechanisms that are controlled by the amount of vitamin A as retinol. So in short, sufficient vitamin A as retinol in the body prevents the further conversion of any carotenoid to vitamin A (otherwise you could get the same toxicity from beta carotene). 

Astaxanthin has been shown to elevate levels of cholesterols but has not been shown to date to cause toxic issues like canthoxanthin (see the bibliography here for an example http://www.astafactor.com/techreports/tr3005-001.htm ) which has been used heavily in the pet fish trade as a color enhancer (and it can cause the symptoms you describe). 

Actually there is a lot of strong evidence that herps do use the carotenoids found in insects as a source of vitamin A... (see 
Ferguson, G. W., J. R. Jones, W. H. Gehrmann, S. H. Hammack, L. G. Talent, R. D. Hudson, E. S. Dierenfeld, M. P. Fitzpatrick, F. L. Frye, M. F. Holick, T. C. Chen, Z. Lu, T. S. Gross and J. J. Vogel. 1996. Indoor husbandry of the panther chameleon Chamaeleo [Furcifer] pardalis: Effects of dietary vitamins A and D and ultraviolet irradiation on pathology and life-history traits. Zoo Biology. 15(3):279-299 

and 
Ellen S. Dierenfeld, Edward B. Norkus, Kathryn Carroll, Gary W. Ferguson ;2002; Carotenoids, vitamin A, and vitamin E concentrations during egg development in panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis); Zoo Biology; Volume 21, Issue 3 , Pages 295 - 303

Ed


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

Yes, I have to admit that I do not fully understand the process. But from my readings, I was under the impression that in insectivores it is unclear if there is some conversion from carotene to vit. A. But I thank you for clarifying for me that vit. A absorption is controlled through feedback. and that Vit. A toxicity from astaxanthine can be ruled out. 

It might also be my lack of clarity in my post, but I was simply trying to state that through the years many aquarists (myself included) and farmers have seen problems with the use of Naturose as a color enhancing product. I realize that some prepared foods used canthaxanthine as an additive, but my comments were about the use of Naturose. Because (as stated in my post) I don't understand what is the true problem, I tried to be clear that I'm not saying this product shouldn't be used. But instead to be careful and that we as a community might want to take notice of a possible connection between Naturose and at least some incidences of edema (bloating)


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

Patrick (Nabors) uses them for his pums and and gets good results with keeping them their reds. I would agree though, Naturose would probably work better.


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## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

Can someone further explain what Naturose is?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Naturose is a powder used as a carotenoid pigment source in fish, but has also been shown to work well in frogs as well, when introduced to the diet with food (on dusted animals, added to the diet of feeders, or both).

Here are some articles on it's use in coloring up fish... NatuRose™ Astaxanthin Powder, and NatuRose: Natural Astaxanthin as a Pigment Source for Ornamental Fish and Animals


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