# Do I need to have water in my false bottom?



## ashar47 (Oct 24, 2020)

I am new to the vivarium/dart frog hobby. My tank has been setup for about three weeks now. I don’t have to mist my vivarium often as the humidity stays >90%. It was originally a completely sealed 18x18x36 Exo Terra tank. I recently added five 2 inch diameter vents towards the back top of the tank after reading the importance of ventilation on this forum. With all that being said my drainage layer doesn’t have standing water, is that how it’s supposed to be? I have read on multiple forums that people have water in their drainage layer I don’t and that has me confused into thinking that I am doing something wrong. I currently don’t have any dart frogs just waiting for everything to settle before I add livestock. Thank you in advance for any help!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Very few, almost none, of my vivariums have any standing water in the drainage layer.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

That's not as much ventilation as I would be comfortable with. A 2" circle has an area of a little over 3 square inches (3.14) -- that's about 15 and a half square inches total, less than the area of a 1" strip across the back. If you live somewhere very dry, that might be acceptable ventilation, but apparently that isn't the case if your humidity doesn't drop (though hygrometers aren't very accurate, and fail when they get wet, so measuring humidity isn't always a good test).

Ideally, the viv will be pretty wet after misting, and then dry out over the course of the day. As the plants fill in, the viv will retain water even more, too.


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## ashar47 (Oct 24, 2020)

Thank you for the response!

That’s my concern with my hygrometer. Before having the holes on the top my plants would stay wet after a misting for days and the humidity would always be at 99%. Now they dry up within 24 hours of a misting. My hygrometer settles at a 93% with the current ventilation I have. I can go a few days without misting and yet the humidity stays at 90% or greater. The plants seem to be growing fine, but with frogs I think I will have to mist more to offer them moisture. I can add more holes on the top to increase my ventilation further. I was also thinking of adding small fans on two of the holes to increase air flow using a timer.


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## Androgynoid (Sep 3, 2020)

ashar47 said:


> Thank you for the response!
> 
> That’s my concern with my hygrometer. Before having the holes on the top my plants would stay wet after a misting for days and the humidity would always be at 99%. Now they dry up within 24 hours of a misting. My hygrometer settles at a 93% with the current ventilation I have. I can go a few days without misting and yet the humidity stays at 90% or greater. The plants seem to be growing fine, but with frogs I think I will have to mist more to offer them moisture. I can add more holes on the top to increase my ventilation further. I was also thinking of adding small fans on two of the holes to increase air flow using a timer.


I'm going to let someone else weigh in to conform, but I _think _ that your humidity is fine considering it is hanging out at 90+%. While the ventilation needs to be adjusted, I can tell you as a fellow n00b that the urge to add too much water is strong. I ran my viv for a few months before getting frogs and I am _still_ cutting back on my misting, and amazed at how well it stays >65%.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Humidity constantly being above 90% is too high. It's fine if it spikes like that periodically, but ideally, it should fluctuate between 60-80%.


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## 8thgensc (Oct 5, 2020)

Woodswalker said:


> Humidity constantly being above 90% is too high. It's fine if it spikes like that periodically, but ideally, it should fluctuate between 60-80%.


I didn't know that. Why ?


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## Androgynoid (Sep 3, 2020)

'Evaporative cooling'. Basically, if it is too humid it prevents their ability to do the frog version of sweating and cool off making them a bit more sensitive to temp fluctuations and less forgiving.

Iirc, the 80+% figure used to be default advice but now that we as hobbyists know that higher humidity means higher chance of something going wrong theres been a push towards maintaining humidity in the 60-80% range (and providing more ventilation to make that feasible).


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> *Do I need to have water in my false bottom?*


No but you may find it helpful. All my tanks are drilled and drained, and I like to keep my false bottom / drainage layer pretty topped off with water. (It takes a little effort, actually - if I just leave it alone, the water level tends to decline down there.) 

I think it helps ensure my humidity doesn't fall too far too fast in the event of a mist head fail when I'm out of town - water vapor can just migrate upward through the substrate. 
I also like that some of my plants can access that zone and pump out water (which they then release into the tank's atmosphere). 
Finally I think it helps regulate temperature swings somewhat - especially any downward swings. I basically live in a cold dry state, and my herp room is in the basement, so it tends to the chilly. Which is perfect, really - it's WAY easier to heat, than it is to cool a room or a viv.

Anyway - some thoughts there. "Your mileage may vary." Have fun, good luck!


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## veggieme (Apr 22, 2016)

This is funny to me, as I have been a frogger for a few years (two tanks, one with a single blue Tinc and one with 5 Leucs) and could never understand why the experts were drilling and draining and had an ongoing water routine, yet I was ADDING water to my false bottom. I just didn't know what I was doing wrong! I finally decided that I don't know as much as everyone else, but my frogs are happy, my plants grow like mad, I see the occasional isopod making a mad dash when I rinse the frog bathtub and an even more rare mushroom a couple of times a year. I even had eggs on a cupped leaf in my leaf letter for the first time ever this summer (even though I don't want the stress of tadpoles, and have not done anything to encourage egg laying.) I hand mist so that I am aware of any issues that might arise, and keep a well-planted tank. When I open the door to feed or trim, it smells like the forest. It's been 5 years. All seems ok. So, I'm not going to tamper with success.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

veggieme said:


> This is funny to me, as I have been a frogger for a few years (two tanks, one with a single blue Tinc and one with 5 Leucs) and could never understand why the experts were drilling and draining and had an ongoing water routine, yet I was ADDING water to my false bottom. I just didn't know what I was doing wrong! I finally decided that I don't know as much as everyone else, but my frogs are happy, my plants grow like mad, I see the occasional isopod making a mad dash when I rinse the frog bathtub and an even more rare mushroom a couple of times a year. I even had eggs on a cupped leaf in my leaf letter for the first time ever this summer (even though I don't want the stress of tadpoles, and have not done anything to encourage egg laying.) I hand mist so that I am aware of any issues that might arise, and keep a well-planted tank. When I open the door to feed or trim, it smells like the forest. It's been 5 years. All seems ok. So, I'm not going to tamper with success.


This is very definitely a YMMV situation. I even have different tanks right next to each other that I have to add water to the drainage layer while the tank next door, I have to frequently empty the overflow. It's all about your balance between the water you add and the water that evaporates and is carried out via ventilation. Sounds like you are on the adding water side of the equation. Either way is fine. What is important is that you have learned what is good for your frogs over the last few years and are willing to do what it takes to keep them comfortable. Good job. No need to change anything. This discussion is for folks that may not have figured out what that balance is going to be for them. The real answer to the OPs question is: it depends  

Mark


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## ashar47 (Oct 24, 2020)

So I just wanted to provide an update on how things are going with the new tank after taking advice from people who replied to my original post. 1) I have stopped worrying about having water in my drainage layer. 2) I added two fans to the vent holes I made on the top plexiglass screen I had. I have the fans scheduled with a timer and they turn on every hour on the hour for two minutes. This ensures that I have regular intervals of air flow in the tank. 3) When I mist my tank my humidity rises to about 98%, but with the fans coming on every hour the humidity ultimately settles to around 83 - 85% after 24 hours. When the fans do run the humidity drops to 73% (this reading depends on how many hours after the misting it is) but then rebounds back up a few minutes later. 4) My plants now dry up a few hours after misting. Before having the fans the plants would stay wet for a few days.

I am using my fans as exhaust fans that push air out of the vivarium. I am using two different hygrometers to check humidity at different heights in the tank. My goal is to run this setup for a few days to collect data and adjust my fan timers as needed. Let me know if anyone has any questions. I appreciate all the help!


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> This is very definitely a YMMV situation. I even have different tanks right next to each other that I have to add water to the drainage layer while the tank next door, I have to frequently empty the overflow.


Me too - exactly. And it varies through time.



> It's all about your balance between the water you add and the water that evaporates and is carried out via ventilation.


Exactly, and I would amend that statement a little bit to mention the role of plants in extracting water from the soil and the drainage layer, and adding water (vapor) to the air. With plants playing a strong role, you will see changes as the plants grow in and as you prune or (in case of their death or your frustration at heavy maintenance of them) replace them.



> When I open the door to feed or trim, it smells like the forest. It's been 5 years. All seems ok.


Perfect on all counts. If it smells sweet, it's sweet. Anything else is probably headed for nasty. And when you're finally dialed in, time flies with no drama. Also sweet.

@OP - I'm glad you're getting comfortable. Just don't get too comfortable. Keep your eyes open, and use all your other senses too. It takes a while for a new viv to "stabilize" (not really the right word - it's more like "slow down its rate of change") and you will also take a little while to develop solid diagnostic and predictive skills. In short - don't pull a Robert McNamara and get obsessed over numerical data at the expense of actual reliable information. Observations like "my plants' leaves now dry in several hours instead of several days, post-misting" is actually better, IMO, than your 67% vs 98% vs 72% hygrometer readings. 

Good luck, and have fun!


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