# Super blue auratus tadpoles



## PappaFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

Can "Super Blue" auratus tadpoles be raised communal in one container or should each tadpole be raised in it's own container?

Thanks for any help anyone can provide.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

I've heard of bad experiences with a different auratus morph and don't think these would be any different.


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## PappaFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks RobR. One thing I did notice is that of the two tadpoles I put into the one container, one has grown very large and one is closer to the size of the when the tadpole hatched. I will move the smaller tad to it's own container.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

I believe auratus are one of the species that give off growth inhibitors as tads. They are also known to be cannabalistic.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

RobR said:


> I've heard of bad experiences with a different auratus morph and don't think these would be any different.


I'm sorry, but I don't see much basis for this. There are a host of different variables that can affect tadpole viability. "I heard it was bad" just doesn't offer much scientific merit. 

We raise all of our auratus tadpoles communally with a high level of success, including super blues. Furthermore, the froglets tend to morph larger and more robust when raised communally. We find our tads do best when we do water changes every 1-3 weeks (when the water is pretty well fouled). We find standard shoe box sized containers about right per clutch of eggs.

If you have a tad that hasn't grown since hatching I would propose that it suffers from some type of defect. If the container you are using is small, it could be competition or possibly even hormonal disruption. It can't hurt to separate them, but it's likely there are other issues are work there.

Good luck with them!


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

I have a friend who had cannabalism in auratus tads, figured that was worth passing along.


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## Darts15 (Jun 5, 2011)

It's usually better to raise dart frog tadpoles separately. This is because they release chemicals in the water to stunt the growth of their siblings, this is why one tadpole was bigger than the other. They won't be harmed by the chemicals, they will just develop slower. If you still want to keep them communally, you should do pretty frequent water changes to prevent a large buildup of these chemicals.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

JL-Exotics said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't see much basis for this. There are a host of different variables that can affect tadpole viability. "I heard it was bad" just doesn't offer much scientific merit.
> 
> We raise all of our auratus tadpoles communally with a high level of success, including super blues. Furthermore, the froglets tend to morph larger and more robust when raised communally. We find our tads do best when we do water changes every 1-3 weeks (when the water is pretty well fouled). We find standard shoe box sized containers about right per clutch of eggs.
> 
> ...


It's always good to see someone post about their actual experience, rather than simply repeating dogma; which there is quite a bit of on this forum. What do you attribute the *larger and more robust *qualities too?
Do you only raise single clutches in the same container? Can you give us a little more info on how these are set up, like water, leaves, plants, and what you feed?


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Auratus are from the Tinctorius family of frogs. They are highly cannibalistic in small containers. I've seen them eat eachothers tails off, and chew threw their belly so their guts spill out. This was in small deli cups of 4-8 oz. Now, without that close proximity, who knows? But honestly, why chance it? Its much easier raising them individually anyway, then you can keep track of their individual care and needs per tads instead of as a group. It is pretty much universally accepted that epipidobates, phyllobates, and some ameerega are the acceptable communally, but not Dendrobatidae, and not the majority of ranitomeya. Not sure about Oophaga


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

You can create semei-communal tadpole rearing containers that keep each tad separate, and if you run a filter and some live plants it is likely that any inhibiting chemicals will be kept to a minimum...and what there are will be diluted and spread throughout the water volume and likely not be much issue.

Here is how I did mine awhile back...

I got a rubbermaid container a little larger then what is needed to hold 8 clear dixie cups (you can get a bigger container for many more cups)....I punched little holes in the cups so the water in the container would fill them up, but small enough the tads couldn't get out. I then put a little gravel and/or a heavy rock in the bottom to hold them down...and then placed a filter in the box.

Here is a pic (It is a little messy cuz I forgot sometimes some activated charcoal floats...but it was well washed of carbon dust, so floating pieces shouldn't be an issue)










The filter I used is for 10-20gal tanks and is similar to this one...








Aquarium Filters: Whisper In-Tank Filters

I think this system is about 3 gallons of water...running a filter for 10+ gallon tanks, so that probably cuts any inhibiting chemicals down and dilutes them a lot because of the water volume and filter action. It isn't 2 tads jammed into the same brom, or tiny pool where inhibiting chemicals probably have the most effect...and the cups kinda restrict water flow a bit even with the holes so it isn't likely that much inhibiting chemical ever makes it out of a cup into another before it gets washed through the filter, the carbon and the plant roots (that are still growing in). 

The cups keep the tads from getting at each other....so a system like this eliminates or likely minimizes most problems that arise from communal raising...It is kinda a hybrid of communal and individual techniques.

This is just a small system for a few tads, but can be made on a much larger scale...at fairly minimal cost/effort. I plan to mostly just top off the water as it evaporates, instead of doing full water changes. 

I suppose I could even throw some tads in the area around the cups and they'd be ok, but I'd rather just make an expanded system when I have more tads...this system is all I need for now. I have some oyapok tads that are not in here, because they are from a different source, and that is something to consider when raising tads like this...if they are all from you, or the same source it is probably fairly safe but if the tads come from a bunch of sources you probably want a system for each source or individual separate cups for each tad so no pathogens that may be in the tad/water can mix infect tads from other sources.


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## IEatBugs (May 15, 2012)

I have raised many auratus tads housed both communally and individually. In my experience I have noted that while being raised together I did experience some cannibalism from within the group. However, cannibalism was not always present while being raised together and it seemed to be sporadic and some morphs were more prone to it than others. I also noticed there would always be one or two tads that were twice the size of the rest of their clutch mates and one or two that were very small in comparison to the others and they looked as if they just hatched from the egg.

All of the tads raised together would morph at different times, unlike them being raised individually when they would all morph within a day or three of each other. Also in my experience when being raised together, it would take longer for the whole metamorphosis process to take place, generally about 3-4 months, while individually it is generally 2-3 months.

When I kept them communally I tried different water change methods from twice weekly, once weekly, every other week and no change at all. I did not see a real difference in any of these methods other than not changing water at all. When not changing any water I have had it take 5 months for every tad to morph.

Everything I do now is individual and I do not do any water changes other than sucking out the gunk from the bottom of the container with a turkey-baster which I do once a week or so and then top the cup off with new water. For me, raising them individually has proven to be more successful.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I have raised many super blue auratus tads before both ways. The communal group grows different sizes over more time. The individually raised tads were pretty consistent in size and morph-timing at time of morph. 
I feel there is a difference in growing communally vs individuals. I diddent notice any cannibalizing. They were raised on a mixed diet of spirulina, fish flake, oak leaves, and blood worm. Lots of protein. Also i never change water (maybe once).


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

RobR said:


> I have a friend who had cannabalism in auratus tads, figured that was worth passing along.


Please don't misunderstand - sharing information is the cornerstone of the forum. But without the particulars of what your friend was doing it's difficult to drawn any real meaningful conclusions.

Tadpoles are territorial and they will defend their space. Put 2 tads in a 2oz or 4oz cup and you will very likely have 1 tad shortly. Weak or dead tadpoles will be consumed, that is true for every dart and tree frog species we've ever worked with.

We've used several methods to rear tadpoles over the years and our sample size is considerable. That said, we feel like we get the best result when we raise our tadpoles communally. 

Our basic set-up includes:


plastic shoe box with lid
~1-2" of RO water that has indian almond leaf soaking
clump of java moss
1/2 of an indian almond leaf 
fed a high quality fish food sinking pellet with high protein content 2-3 times per week.
water changed weekly or every other week in most cases. As time allows is probably the most accurate description.

The shoe boxes are subject to whatever room temperature might be. No heat source provided. Water temp ranges from 68-73 during winter and 70-75 during summer.

Morph time is slower in winter months than summer months. Winter is 10-14 weeks and summer is 6-12 weeks depending on species, feeding routine, temps etc.

1 clutch of tads per container, which can range from 1 - 15 tads depending on species. Most fall in the 4-8 range.

Reared in this manner, most auratus and tincs will morph out at 3/4" or more. I attribute the increased size and robustness in froglets to a few things:


Greater area and water volume dilutes waste so I don't have to be as careful with over feeding & fouling the water
Greater area allows more surface area for bacteria and algae to grow offering a more consistently available food source
Greater water volume dilutes hormones reducing inhibiting effects (if present)
Greater water volume helps maintain a better water quality between water changes
Greater water volume helps keep temps more stable over the course of a day

I see very little cannibalism from auratus and tinc tadpoles using this method and that includes super blue auratus specifically. 

Some clutches will all morph within a few days of each other, some will spread out over a week or two - sometimes even longer. I guess I don't really care if they all come at once as long as they all come big and healthy. Is it important that a clutch all morph within a few day of each other?

The shoe boxes are bigger and bulkier and more difficult to maintain at a steady heated temperature - they don't lend themselves very well to more traditional heated systems, so the length of time to morph can be longer - up to a month or more in some cases. But again, I guess I don't really count the days or care if they take a few weeks longer to morph as long as they morph large and healthy. Is it important that they all morph at 8 weeks?

That's what works for us - but I would encourage everyone to experiment (just as we did over the years) and see what works the best for you.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

No offense here, it kind of gets to me when people pass along 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge without first hand experience. However I've had questions, possibly ones that people are tired of going over, go unanswered and figured I give the safe answer in case he didn't get much else. 
To the op, good luck with your tads!


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## PappaFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

Thanks to all who have replied to this thread. I will be experimenting with both methods, communally and individually.

Thanks, 
PappaFrog


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