# Living World Small Pals Pen



## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Hey all,
I just picked up a Small Pals Pen, Extra Large (3.3 gallon) at the pet shop on clearance. Has anyone converted or used one of these for dart frogs?
http://www.hagen.com/usa/small/product. ... 9150020101
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

As quarantine cages yes. Permanent home no.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

booboo,
I do not intend to start a debate. I keep my thumbnails in small vivs with no ill effects and breeding. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I've heard of thumbs corting in 32oz deli contianers. I'd not make it their home, but it certianlly supports the notion that size doesn't matter. Sorry, I had to phrase it that way 8)



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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I don't think booboo (haha, funny name) intended to start a debate with his answer. He answered the question you asked simply and to the point, albeit, a bit blunt. Heh.

Me, I've used them as "carry home from the reptile show" containers and as quarantine. I've yet to try to house darts for any length of time in one though.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I don't think he did either, I was just tossing the info out there.



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## Guest (Mar 24, 2006)

yea, he was really just stating his opinion...


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Jason, 

Why not start a friendly debate?  You had to expect the “It’s too small” comments when you posted. Anyway, If you are having success breeding thumbs in small containers, lets hear the specifics. Personally I don’t like the idea of cramming animals into small containers where they will spend a lot of time walking around in their own feces. On the other hand, I’m by no means an expert or even very experienced, so definitely don’t hesitate to tell us all how you set up a small thumb viv, what sanitary procedures you use and what specific successes you are having. 

Please don’t take my comments as an invite to be roasted in a Dendroboard style flame fest. If you are having successes I’m sure the board will be intrigued by what you have to say. We’ve all heard about the shoebox breeders. It would to be interesting to hear how such things are done.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

In my Opinion we should stop this debate right now as tank size has been discussed to death. Here are my two cents.... IF you do not have the proper room for housing a frog, dog, cat, fish,bird,reptile,dolphin or or girlfriend, dont have them.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I do not intend to start a debate over the smaller tank. It seems that every one criticizes the smaller viv. I am producing Vents in a 2.5 gallon vert. I have not produces imitators, but that is due to not having a female. I hope to be producing them in the next few months. I am looking to for ways to seal the top air holes of the Small Pals Pen. I do have an idea from a buddy. 

The initial change to the 2.5 vert was to keep frog in my bedroom. I prefer to enjoy the frogs as much as I can. There are few draw backs.
Cons 
1.	Algae growth on side of glass builds up quick.
2.	Over growth does not take long.
3.	Siphon out water at least once a week. 
Pros
1.	You feed fewer fruit flies. There are less escape and bit easier for the frogs to finds.
2.	Easy to monitor frogs health. 
3.	Less space used. 

I do keep the tanks over grown. It gives barriers and more climbing area for the frogs. My frogs are fat and healthy. I need to get an updated picture but here is the old picture of my tanks. I do have to wipe out the tanks with paper towels, a little vinegar, and a razor blade. I clean off the feces, the algae, and water spots. I spray most feces of plants. It is really no different than any other viv. 










I have kept my imitators in a 25 gallon but at this time I prefer the 2.5 gallon. I am not saying that I will not return to the 25 gallon, I do have space on the animal room. I am looking into Rubermaid polycarbonate containers. Any other questions on micro-vivs let me know. 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Jason, 

Can you give us some more specifics?
How long have you had frogs in these vivs?
How many vivs like this do you have?
How many froglets have you produced?
Are you allowing the parents to feed the tads or are you raising them separately?
How are you lighting the vivs?
What temps are you maintaining?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I have had the imitators for a year+ in the viv and the vents since Oct. I have 7 tads right now. I am raising the tads. I have two lights on the vivs an under the 18 watt light stripes. The temps should be around 75-77 degrees. I have just the two takes.
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Wow. Thats insane. I have 2.5 gal tanks just like those, but they are horizontal and for temporary use only. I have contemplated setting them up as verts, but I would just feel bad cramming frogs in it for any long period of time. Although, using them to raise baby thumbs and pums (nice rhyme... :wink: ) would be pretty neat as you could monitor them a little better, yet provide a more "natural" enclosure for them while they grow instead of the standard Sterilite shoebox/container.

Thanks for posting that.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

One way I explain the smaller viv is look at the size of an adult pair of azureus and tinctorius. Most folks and care sheets state they can be kept in a 10 gallon tank and reproduce. If you look at the size the 2.5 gallon and the size of a thumbnail pair, the area that they have is pretty comparable. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

Hey Jason those vivs are pretty cool. You said that you siphon the water out about once a week, do you have a hole drilled in the back where it flows out of or how do you have that? Could you possible take a few pics. 

Thanks a lot


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I open the door and use a siphon I bought at the hardware store. If I change design I would like to add a drain hole. I think it would make the tanks keeper friendly. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2006)

Hey Jason,

Those are some cool verts, Those might work out good around here, until one of the kids move out, and I can have an actual frog room :wink: 

On the subject of sealing off the vents of the pet pals, I remember seeing a web page where they laid the pet pal up side down on thin plastic (like what they use for poster frames) and traced the rim of the cage, then cut it just a little smaller. This piece then fits in between the cage and the snap on lid, but would make the door useless. :? Then they actually cut the vents off and used just the snap on frame rail.

If you wanted to keep the door functional, you could use clear packing tape on the inside of the lid, but if I remember right, I think the flies could probably get out around where the door sits?


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2006)

froglet said:


> In my Opinion we should stop this debate right now as tank size has been discussed to death. Here are my two cents.... IF you do not have the proper room for housing a frog, dog, cat, fish,bird,reptile,dolphin or or girlfriend, dont have them.



sometimes I have to wonder if I have the room to house my girlfriend successfully!!!!!!!!!????


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I think it is ridiculous to keep an azureus or tinc pair in a ten gallon tank and think that a 20 long would be minimum. 
How many imitators do you have in the 2.5? Are they all calling?
I ask this b/c if they are a year+ they should be breeding and perhaps the small enclosure is discouraging them, i am not saying they wont breed but it may slow things down.
Vents are vents they breed anywhere anytime, i keep mine in an 18high and they lay multiple clutches all the time even when they have many tads in the water :shock: 

This is all my opinion.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2006)

Anything you put in a cage is being confined in to small of an enclosure"." That is why we have to change water, spray down the feces, add food, supplements...... I'm sure in there natural environment, a vent would travel around in an area larger than my living room.

Housing an animal in a smaller setup just demands more maintenance and better parental care from the owner. Jason has proved he can provide adequate dedication to these factors. If you have frogs successfully breeding, and producing fertile eggs, they are receiving the proper requirements they need, and must feel comfortable enough to do so.

I would not recommend this for everyone, or anyone for that matter, but if your willing to provide a bit more attention and care, obviously it can be done successfully. Although this is something I probably wouldn't try myself, I don't think you should be criticising his success. But everyone has ther own opinions, and this is just mine. :wink:


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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

Yea well you can put 2 cats in a box and change their water/kitty litter every day and I'm sure they would breed also, but that doesn't mean you should do it. There is a difference between putting animals in a smaller enclosure and cramming them in a tiny jar. Just because they are breeding does not mean you are providing adequate space for them. I would agree that these things are too small for any frogs including thumbs and feel bad for any thumb that gets unlucky enough to have to live the rest of its life in a shoebox sized tank.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

So show us your entire room dedicated to one pair of frogs that you have setup to mimic the size of their normal territory. If you don't have a setup similar to that, I'd think you'd have a hard time berating Jason when he's absolutely not treating his frogs any worse than you are.

Edit - I think part of the problem here is that we try to place ourselves in the position of our frogs. Naturally, we would be unhappy about having to live in such small quarters, so we would feel bad for our frogs if they were subjected to the same treatment.

The problem is that frogs don't have emotions, to them it probably makes no difference.


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## yuri (Feb 18, 2004)

How much of a frog's territory in the wild is determined by its food density?

How much of a frog's territory in the wild is determined by its breeding site density?

How about the density of potential mates?

Do you take into account that there is no predator stress?

It is easy to just give your opinion, but is it informed or even helpful?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Well congrats on breeding those vents. I am sure if i place a pair of vents in one of springtail containers, they will also breed. Vents breed anywhere and that is no accomplishment. I dare you to place two Standard Lamasi in one of those tanks, and youll find yourself with atleast one dead frog in no time. I dont know you and i am not trying to be mean but that is just a damn shame...........


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Froglet, that was a tad rude.

If the tanks work and the frogs are breeding, he must be doing something right. I'm sure if the frogs were the least bit stressed, they wouldn't even eat, let alone breed.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Im sorry if that sounded a bit rude, but keeping the frogs in those conditions is like keeping a bull mastiff tied up in its kennel all day. Borderline animal cruelty. I know its silly that a few gallons might make a difference but frogs are territorial and that is just not enough space IMO. And i will not retract my position, i still say vents can breed anywhere... Sorry but its true.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Frogtofall he got the point across and was honest. I am here to back that up thats how i feel.

Animals are hardwired to eat and reporduce they will do it nearly anywhere with adequate time acclimation and care, but why would you keep something in that size container.

Would you like to live in a small bedroom with one other person and reporoduce? Yah mybe you would but how about after a year? not to mention your fecis are on the ground.

Humans of course are different but it offers another perspective such as the cats.

Oh yah to back up the ventrimaculatus comment by Froglet i own 4 they are some of my favorites due to their activitys, and they are obviuously hardwired tyo reproduce, i wouldnt be surpirsed if they reproduced in a .75gallon tank with two broms but who in their right mind would do that.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Have you ever paid to get into SeaWorld? How about a Zoo??

Well if so it sounds to me like you're supporting keeping wild savannah roaming animals and large free roaming whales captive in a cage thats a bit larger than my living room and a pool thats no where NEAR the size of the ocean a whale would swim in.

You ever had an aquairum of less than 10,000 gallons for a group of schooling fish? Sounds the same to me...

Get my point?


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

Alot of these comments are derogatory and uncalled for; accusing him of animal cruelty etc. They may be true, but if you feel that strongly about it, send him a PM. There is no need to make a public example of his mistake. 

I think that he understands the tanks may be small, but he also said he takes steps to make sure that it still sufficient for them to live in. Like Frogtofall said, places like SeaWorld also keep animals in cramped quarters, but it's accepted because patrons don't think about it. They just want to see the whales. But places like that do the "best" they can. Maybe Jason is doing the best he can. I'm not endorsing his small vivariums, but trying to get other people to realize, they're his and whatever works for him works. He's not imposing his practices on you.

2 cents.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

booboo said:


> Would you like to live in a small bedroom with one other person and reporoduce? Yah mybe you would but how about after a year? not to mention your fecis are on the ground.
> 
> Humans of course are different but it offers another perspective such as the cats.


But they aren't humans and you can't give them human traits. They don't have "feelings". 

What he is doing is absolutely no different than the conditions we subject our own frogs to.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

At kleats we are privelaged enough to visit places such as sea worlds and zoos, also do i think it is right no, do the animals breed occasionally but not to their potential many zoos now realize that and many are getting bigger.

For the matter i think our method of rearing fruit flies is absolutley terrible first we take away their only defense (flightless wingless) then throw them in a small container and breed them in the thousands.

Frogtofall have you read any books on poison dartfrogs? Most of them especially the euro ones always support large tank size. How do you think people like the fry brothers are so succesful with some of their really rare pumilio HUGE TANKS.

We can argue this till we are blue in the face, but we enjoy caring for these delicate andimals and should provide everything as best we can. A ten vert doesnt take up much more room then a 2.5 vert .



> What he is doing is absolutely no different than the conditions we subject our own frogs to.


Our conditions are much different than his, no one has the same husbandry.

They may not have feelings but that doesnt mean just go ahead and abuse the fact that your big and they are small, i can keep them where ever i want as long as they live.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

> For the matter i think our method of rearing fruit flies is absolutley terrible first we take away their only defense (flightless wingless) then throw them in a small container and breed them in the thousands.


If that's inhumane, then what do you feed your frogs? I'm not saying that I enjoy killing animals, but feeding our frogs is absolutely necessary. Little known fact: 10 out of 10 living things dies, everybody's gotta get used to it.



> Frogtofall have you read any books on poison dartfrogs? Most of them especially the euro ones always support large tank size. How do you think people like the fry brothers are so succesful with some of their really rare pumilio HUGE TANKS.


I don't think anyone advocates the use of small vivs like Jason's, but we're just trying to defend him from peoples' harsh comments.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

> I don't think anyone advocates the use of small vivs like Jason's, but we're just trying to defend him from peoples' harsh comments.


That is a very valid point.

We are all entitled to our own opinions and i am not very interested in arguing anymore but i do think that a ten gallon vert is a minimum for a thumb pair and that is my mere opinion.

I am not saying i am not going to feed flys its just another perspective like the human idea and the cat idea. Not to mention we are raising them just to kill them.


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Ok i will apologize for my harsh comments. I Should have just kept my mouth shut. My thing is, if you dont want people like me to comment please dont post on the board that yu keep ur frogs like this. I hope all your frogs do well and live happy.........


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

booboo said:


> Frogtofall have you read any books on poison dartfrogs? Most of them especially the euro ones always support large tank size. How do you think people like the fry brothers are so succesful with some of their really rare pumilio HUGE TANKS.



I've been reading books longer than you've been alive my friend. I've read more books on frogs than probably the "average" hobbyist. I wouldn't keep my darts in a 2.5gal viv permanently, but I think that the way he's doing it is probably the best anyone could do it and I don't think he deserves to be ridiculed for it.

I'm a huge fan of the gigantic viv.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> I have kept my imitators in a 25 gallon but at this time I prefer the 2.5 gallon. I am not saying that I will not return to the 25 gallon, I do have space on the animal room.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

JJuchems said:


> I have kept my imitators in a 25 gallon but at this time I prefer the 2.5 gallon. I am not saying that I will not return to the 25 gallon, I do have space on the animal room.


 One thing i have been wondering is why bother keeping them in 2.5s when 10s are the same price? and when you have room?

IMO, those tanks arent acceptable in my opinion at least the way they are set up. Maybe, just maybe if you had a pair of vents and the viv was HEAVILY planted (about 3x more plants than there currently are) you ccould put them in there. But i still wouldnt do it and dont know of anyone who would besides JJuchems. One use i could think of for these tanks is to cycle them in there occasionally when you wanted to breed them, and keep them in a larger tank most of the time. Otherwise, it is just too crowded. 

Even though VicSkimmer said that they are different than humans, with less complex brains, so the thing about it being comparable to 2 humans in a room is not a good comparison, the fact remains that in the wild these frogs patrol much larger territory than any vivs we keep them in, especially a 2.5. While it may be the same concept as a 10, there is still 4 times the room, and i am sure the frogs benefit from this, even if we dont see it. 

It would be interesting to do an experiment on this, and set up two pairs of the same species in side by side tanks, one a ten and one a 2.5, and compare health, breeding, and longevity.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Good Day All,
Well, I have been very busy with school and have two big tests this week and I will have a response to the post tomorrow. I also will say that I work in a zoo. Habitat for many animals is not always the biggest. Like I said, I am sure a lot of people keep Tinc pairs in 10 gallon tanks, but I see no slander to them. Stress is the main cause of death to herps in problematic habitats. Maybe lamasi would die in a 2.5, but are you will to put the work into trying the small viv? This an experiment and it seems not to have a negative effect. 
Booboo,
Maybe because the book is almost as old as you but take a look at Frogs, Toads, and Treefrogs by RD Bartlett. Yes, the book is old and out dated, but it lists a minimum for PDF’s as a 55 gallon, how many of you keep them in tanks this size? I think the hobby has changed a bit since then. If you have read my post you would have read that I have two male imitators and just picked up a female. Yes, I have calling from the imitators. 
Edit Add In: I do keep other animals. They are kept in the traditional setup for those species. I have kept PDF's for about 5 years. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## yuri (Feb 18, 2004)

booboo said:


> I think it is ridiculous to keep an azureus or tinc pair in a ten gallon tank and think that a 20 long would be minimum.


I would get on the phone then and tell the folks at NAIB what a "ridiculous" job they are doing over there. Their basic setup is the ten gallon tank. I have both seen this in person as well as read about it in "Proceedings of the 1997 International Herpetological Society's Symposium".

Again these are opinions being expressed by people here on Dendroboard, with varying degrees of experience and varying degrees of success and knowledge. So, how helpful is it to the board in general to give opinions just for the sake of giving an opinion?


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## yuri (Feb 18, 2004)

froglet said:


> Well congrats on breeding those vents. I am sure if i place a pair of vents in one of springtail containers, they will also breed. Vents breed anywhere and that is no accomplishment. I dare you to place two Standard Lamasi in one of those tanks, and youll find yourself with atleast one dead frog in no time. I dont know you and i am not trying to be mean but that is just a damn shame...........


Is this statement from experience or just "stuff you want to say" with nothing to back it up? What I think is a "damn shame" are some of the comments here.

Have you bred vents? Have you bred vents in a springtail container?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

ibtl


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

> Is this statement from experience or just "stuff you want to say" with nothing to back it up? What I think is a "damn shame" are some of the comments here.
> 
> Have you bred vents? Have you bred vents in a springtail container?



I have not bred vents and i do not plan on breeding them, but if you cant agree that vents are by far the most prolific of PDF's then i think you should be leaving the frog hobby and doing something else. I would be my life and 1 million dollars ( if i had them  ) that i could breed vents in my springtail containers and every person in here would most likely agree with me. 

If you keep your frogs in small containers also that is up to you, but dont expect people like me to aprove. As i dont want to make this into a whole battle which will get noone anywhere , i hope all your frogs are well and happy..... .


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Sigh...

As this is becoming a collection of non-sequiturs, shouting and general crankiness, I am hereby discontinuing this thread. If you wish to make these discussions, do so nicely.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

*Last Words on Living World Small Pals Pen*

The post is locked before I had a chance to make a statement, which a little over board on censorship on fairly good discussion. I know how censorship works on this board and this maybe my last post. 
Here is my point:

*Cougars (Felis concolor) require up to 160 km2 for a single animal to survive.* 
*How many zoos offer this requirement and why is this not met?*

Animals in captivity do not have the same stress in captivity then they do in the wild. They do not have to search for food and they have no predators. They do not have to worry about finding a safe place to rest. 
Zoos cannot fit this requirement. They do not have the space or resources to keep up a habitat this large. So why are they is small habitat? Management. 
Without such experiments many reptiles and amphibians in captivity would not have habitat requirements for the average hobbyist. 

Can anyone give an accurate range of travel for a thumbnail or pumilio species? 
I work in conservation and use my animals for conservation. My mere experiment may not change how certain herps maybe kept on the future but it gives more insight into the captive care of thumbnails. 

Booboo,
If you really feel that raising fruit flies in the conditions we do you should really release your pets and join PETA. I mean this in all sincerity. However you meant the statement, statements like this can end a hobby. At age 19 (2003) I ran for city council for the City of Pekin, IL (pop. 34,000) and in 2004 I fought this:
http://faunaclassifieds.com/forums/show ... hp?t=59626 
There is no comparison to the culturing of fruit flies and the keeping of thumbnails in 2.5 gallon tanks. 

If you would like to check the puma area requirement ask your high school science teacher if your school subscribes to The Science Teacher. You will find the range in April/May 2005 pg 29, Figure 1. This information is from Project CAT a program in the Washington Dept. of Fish and Wildlife. I purposely used this information so you can check it and read a really cool school project on conservation. 
Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I highly encourage anyone who wishes to continue the discussion about PDF viv size to consider the following:

1) try using data as opposed to opinion. If you have some facts, share them. If you have an opinion, label it as such. 

2) avoid personal attacks on other people's motives, experience, etc.

Bill

Edit: For the record, I raise thumbnail froglets in 9.75 x 6 inch containers (190 ounces or 1.5 gallons) usually 3 to a container with no problems whatsoever until they are ~ 3/4 adult size. I also have a couple of pairs of retics in the same containers for 3 months running now, the adult duo to make sure I've sexed them correctly and the younger two to get them to adult size. Both sets are doing great and seem pretty comfortable.

Now I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum in providing space, for example I have 4 intermedius in a 37 H...but I use the point of the smaller setups with my own personal data to note that small isn't always bad.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ok I have unlocked this thread but will make a some comments: 

*As stated already keep this topic to the facts and away from bashing. This could be an interesting conversation without the bashing. *

Now my thoughts: 
How do you rate a frogs happiness? Breeding?


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## froglet (May 18, 2005)

Yuri and Jason, i apologize for my rude comments. I hope there are no hard feelings..... May all your frogs be happy and healthy....


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Another thought I think everyone would love to make a viv like the tanks in this post, but who has the time and money to manage it:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14642

WOW what I would do to covert 1/2 my living room into a viv....


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I define health as the over all activity and body condition of the animal. My imitators tend to stay in the broms. They also did this in the 25 gallon. They are active hopping through the leaves and glass. I do not really think you can define happiness. This is passing human traits onto animals. Stress is a human trait but a real fact in animal care that can end in death. Happiness in a nut shell would be normal behavior without signs of stress. 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I would have to agree and was my reason for bringing it up. I think frogs will be happy in various sizes of tanks as long as they are not stressed and get the required care. I don't think there is any way to define ideal, and for some larger tanks working for specific frogs could be directly related to other variables as well: such as less stress, more hiding places, more height, more breeding locations, etc etc...


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

This is a really interesting thread. I've wondered about making a little 2.5 gallon viv as a backup tank in case i ever need to remove a frog from it's regular viv due to agression issues, sickness, new froglets, etc. I think it would be much easier on the frog than a sterilite container. And with them being so small they'd be cheap and easy to set up and rebuild if they become contaminated. Keep the ideas comin!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Since I missed this debate due to vacation and recovering from vacation (yes, it was just that much fun), here is my long winded (as usual) contribution to the discussion. Mods, feel free to edit if its a problem. This is totally my opinion, based on personal experience, communications with other froggers over the years, and what I've read over the years.

IMO, I don't think you can honestly take breeding as a sign of "happiness" or what I'd like to think of as success in recreating the animals' niche in the wild to the best of your abilities (where the animals would live and breed long term without or with few problems), PDFs in general seem to breed in conditions very different from what they would in the wild (and in tanks with no place to deposit their tads!) and are, to a degree, adaptable and able to breed for short periods of time in some crazy conditions. Now if they aren't breeding, and you have both sexes, then you might be doing something really wrong, or missing a peice of the puzzle, but (again, IMO) breeding doesn't mean you have it perfect. More like just a step in the right direction.

Take, for instance, imitator breeding in a critter keeper with sphagnum moss and a sprig of pothos. Sure, they are breeding, breaking a couple "population rules" while they are at it (this is not to open that can of worms, so move on past that bit), but where the HECK are they going to put those tadpoles? Whoops :roll: They don't think of us as the "egg/tapole saving fairies", more like "OMG THEY ATE OUR EGGS! time to make new ones..." but with all this breeding in tanks (their "territories") that have no tadpole deposition sites? EEK. Seems more like they are hard wired to reproduce if at all possible, more than under only the most perfect conditions (tho Robb M. mentioned his Red Trivies possibly breeding in the 75 set up he had over other set ups because they had a place to deposit tads... guess they might be wired to think ahead more than the imis lol, or deposition bodies of water might be required in a male or female's territory for successful breeding... or there could be something completely different that they just really liked in that tank and the pond had nothing to do with it - oi).

I also think there could be some stuff that throws our animals off a bit - like how most of us collect their eggs as soon as we can tell they are fertile or not, which triggers the "OMG THEY ATE OUR EGGS! time to make new ones..." response... under "normal/nature's way" conditions (aka letting them do the work, and incubate the eggs full term) these animals probibly wouldn't be making as many eggs over time, and the parents would maintain condition better over time, and tadpole fertility/hatch rate/survivalship/froglet health & survival would be great in an ideal habitat... but what does pulling the eggs do to the animals? Maybe we have them in the best environment, but we think we don't because they aren't maintaining health due to possible "over breeding"? Or am I totally opening another can of worms and should really be quiet?

Just wanted to point out that breeding may, or may not be a good indicator of certain "health" factors related to tanks, since they could, long term, be influenced by some of our other practices.

As for the space requirements, my only comment is to think about why do the animals have specific space requirements in the wild (food, breeding sites, etc), and how are we modifying that in captivity, and are we doing it in such a way that those requirements no longer need to be held (providing smaller territories but all required food, breeding sites, etc).

For example, pumilio seem to, from what I've read/seen in Costa Rica, be limited by breeding sites (ants certaining are everywhere, considering how many times I was attacked and literally had ants in the pants :evil: ). Places where there were numorus water holding... things (live plants in people gardens like heliconia, xanthosoma, taro, garbage, fallen leaves that held water, etc.) pumilio where seen in decent density (sitting on the porch you could hear 5+ males calling). These were usually disturbed areas I saw around Limon (black jean pumilio) - significant distrubed areas and agriculture. In undistrubed forest on the other side of the mountains, home to Blue Jeans, the frogs were much farther in between, and concentrated in areas of distrubance - breaks in the canopy due to fallen trees (only place you really found broms on the forest floor), stream side areas (lots of fallen branches, logs, streamside light loving plants like broms, etc), and the like. Much lower concentrations, and man where they bitchy about invaders. So if we manipulated the amount of breeding sites, would these animals require equal, or less space in captivity? Are they adapative enough to deal with the change, or are they hard wired for this competition? Does it differ by genus, species, or even population level? (BTW - BJs seem to still need big territories in captivity, while bastis - same species - could have a large group of animals in the same sized tank and breed like rabbits).

I'll shut up now.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Good points Corey, i too have wondered if continued removal of eggs could cause too much stress. I'm sure it can't help.

I am by no means an expert but i suspect these small vivs are okay if designed and maintained properly and with the right amount of frogs. Obviously to breed they need deposition sites (which were provided as film canisters) and a certain amount of privacy (heavy planting). Since we feed them, they don't need a large area to hunt for food. As long as the uneaten flies remain in check, i don't see any food related problems. The other main concern i see is territory. As long as you only keep one of each sex in the viv, there will be no competiton for territory as in the wild. If all these conditions are met and the enclosure is kept clean (which as stated earlier will take more work in a smaller setup) i don't see any reason this wouldn't work. 

People regularly keep frogs in quarantine containers for as long as three months with no ill effects. I doubt anyones QT containers are as plush as the vivs Jason provided.

Thanks to the mods for reopening this thread!


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

OK I stayed out of this one because of all the flaming going on. Now that the Mods have steped in I want to add a thought.

It seems to me that any environment less than half the size of your living room is less than "ideal" So whether we have 90 gal vivs or 2.5 gal viv is going to be less than "ideal". That being said, since we continue to keep these frogs in captivity it becomes our responsibility to care for them to the best of our ability. to provide adequate shelter, hiding spots and breeding ground. to provide food and healthy conditions. So whether we keep our frogs in large vivs or micro vivs the burden of their care rests on our shoulders. that means more work the smaller the enclosue but if the frogs show good body tone and overall good health and are eating and reproducing (despite comments to the contrary I don't believe they will breed if the are overly stressed) Then the size of the viv doesn't really matter.

Personally I like the idea of the micro vivs. It has to be better 
than the rubbermaid boxes for tads and froglets. I would definately use something similar for my own froglets if I ever had any. 

be happy , be healthy, be blessed


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I personally feel that breeding activity is a pretty heavy determining factor in an animals state of health. You will find that pretty much any animal (human, fish or frog) will not attempt to reproduce unless it is in the proper physical condition to do so. That condition would require the use of energy that could only be obtained from a healthy body. We all know stress is probably one of the biggest killers in the animal kingdom. Look at fish. Fish get open to all kinds of diseases when stressed from shipping or aggressive tank mates. Even humans break out in pimples or have trouble eating when stressed. Frogs are no different. A stressed frog will not eat and most definately will not breed. I feel if a frog is even attempting to breed that it must be in the upper 90% of perfect health and to me would be an excellent inidicator of health and "happiness". You could setup a 125 gal with 25 broms and then throw in some newly imported froggies that are malnurished and stressed out. The humidity could be perfect, the food could be plentiful, but without all the stress I could guaruntee you will not see breeding.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

here are pictures of my tanks I took today. Sorry they are not the best pictures.
Imitators









Vents. 
This tank needs to be sprayed down.









Both Tanks









Later and Happy Froging,
Jason Juchems


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Very nice! You need to get some smaller broms in there! Haha.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

That is actually why the vent tank does not have a larger brom. in it. I pick-up small potted broms. at Lowes with pups for $7. I split off the pups and throw them into the tanks and they take root. I sell the brom I originally bought and sell the pups when they grow out of the small viv. If I put a larger viv to gather soon, I should have plenty of broms. 

Edit in: I prefer to let the broms get as large as possible. The two in the imitator tank can get a bit bigger before they change. 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Lowe's eh? Everytime I go there all the broms they have are the Vrieseas. The ones you have look like little Neos of some sort. Do you know what Genus they are?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

The way Jason packs those 2.5 gallon tanks, they probably have more surface area and frog-usable space than most 10 gallon verts I see. I like my tanks so full of plants that I go weeks without seeing the frogs.

With that said, I think we need to warn others (especially froggers who don't have years of experience) of the dangers of very small terrariums.

-They lack temp/humidity variants. This can prove fatal if you get lazy with mistings or experience a temp change. I blew a fuse and lost power to my heater over the thanksgiving break. So, my frogs experienced temps into the low 50s if not into the 40s. I lost 4 frogs that were in temp enclosures (sphagnum and pothos 190 oz containers). All other frogs were fine.
-Bacteria and worm buildup. Poop can really build up quickly with that little of floor space. Unclean frogs can reinfect themselves at lethal levels in that type of vivarium unless they are healthy (clean fecals) and de-wormed to some degree (do not wish to bring the worm debate to dendroboard).
-Hinders microfauna. The smaller the tank the less microfauna it can sustain and therefore the less variety for the frogs.

As Bill stated earlier, I also use a lot of the 190 oz containers to grow up frogs and house frogs occasionally. You just need to keep in mind the risks.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Personally, I'd like to believe that most froggers would want to go bigger instead of smaller, considering it doesn't cost much to upgrade (unlike reef-keeping).

I'm all for this experiment, but I doubt we'll have many problems with people choosing a 2.5 over a 10 (since they're the same price).


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

VicSkimmr said:


> Personally, I'd like to believe that most froggers would want to go bigger instead of smaller, considering it doesn't cost much to upgrade (unlike reef-keeping).
> 
> I'm all for this experiment, but I doubt we'll have many problems with people choosing a 2.5 over a 10 (since they're the same price).


I'm pretty sure price isn't the issue, it's more of a space thing. And yes i agree most people would want to go bigger. I'd turn my whole back yard into a giant vivarium if i had the room and the money! Like i said earlier though, i do see uses for small tanks such as these (froglets, QT, etc.).


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

How fun it would be to pick apart someones post, but I shall refrain. Some funny contradictions.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

mydumname said:


> How fun it would be to pick apart someones post, but I shall refrain. Some funny contradictions.


please do, it was quite entertaining in nuggulars post lol


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

mydumname said:


> How fun it would be to pick apart someones post, but I shall refrain. Some funny contradictions.


Who's post would you be referring to?


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

screw you twisner!!! :lol: :lol:


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