# Pet Stores



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I can't find any threads about this because the search ignores "pet" so I ended up with pages and pages where people obscurely say the word "store".

Anyhow, my question is about pet stores. I have a healthy distrust of pet stores in general. Staff never seems to know what they should, prices are usually a lot higher than they need to be, and animals are usually poorly housed/overcrowded/mixed. A lot of supplies are better purchased at home depot or online than in person in a pet store.

But that's with reptiles, not dart frogs. So I'm wondering if anyone has had good experiences buying frogs from pet stores or if everyone's experiences are the same as I've had in reptiles.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

For me its about the same experience. Most pet stores dont really keep data on PDFs they get and they are sold for more than they are worth. I think they do it because they are trying to recover for shipping costs.

Example: my nearest pet store has leucs and azereus for sale for $70 each! and they don't have any real info on them. Other than "we got them from a wholesaler" and when I ask for the sellers contact info, the pet store won't give it.

Another thing that bothers me is just because something has a a label that says it's for pets, they can sell it for twice if not three times what it's worth! I went to buy a simple 26 watt 6500K bulb and found one at the pet store for $15! The packaging was fancy and looked like it was made especially for pets. I decided to go to a local hardware store and I found a bulb with the exact specs for $4.95!


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Agree with you 100% about their ridiculous "pet-brand" markup. A lot of times the pet brands aren't even all that great lol. 

I have a great little hygromometer for instance that I bought for like 8 bucks at walmart. Way better than the cheap-o button temp and humidity readers that I likely spent more on. Plus, I get the 24 hour highs and lows 

I found 2 stores with dart frogs. 1 had azureus and another type in a mixed tank for $50 each and the other had azureus and leucs (I think they were leucs) for 50 and 60 respectively. I wasn't all that impressed with any of them and the prices did seem high at the time. Glad I've taken the time to research them a bit more... 

Another thing that bugs me to no end is seeing dead animals in tanks (fish or otherwise) which seems to be a not uncommon experience when I go to petstores.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You have to keep in mind, the breeder need x amount of money for their frog. If a pet shop decides to offer them, they have to mark them up. There is a lot of overhead in running a pet shop and they have to make a profit or go out of business. Do I just love paying the higher price at a pet shop...no, of course not. But just keep in mind, they have overhead...they have to mark a product up...and last but certainly not least, Nobody ever got rich running a local Mom and Pop pet shop! Their higher prices are a necessity to stay open.
And no, I don't run a pet shop, but I have friends that do and trust me, they are not out to rip anyone off.
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

And one last thing. Dart frogs are very specialized and I support buying directly from the breeder for a healthier frog.
Doug


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## eos (Dec 6, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> And one last thing. Dart frogs are very specialized and I support buying directly from the breeder for a healthier frog.
> Doug


What he said ^^

Plus you'll never know the history of the frogs that you get from a pet store which is a very important detail in our hobby.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

A frog in a pet shop has one little thing going against it that you will never know about. If the frogs are too dry, you can see that. If they weren't fed right, pretty obvious. But what about this? This week you see a pair of healthy looking Azureus in what we will call tank #4. Last week tank # 4 had a snake from Africa in it. The week before, tank #4 was keeping Anoles. The week before, it contained milk snakes, and a month ago, tank #4 held a tarantula. The tank has never been properly disinfected with bleach and maybe not even wiped out between animals.
The million dollar question is...How many mystery pathogens have those cute little Azureus froglets been exposed to?
Doug


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I cannot speak for pet stores in general. However, as one who happens to live in Orem, I can speak to the pet stores you will encounter locally. Your experience will be typically worse than your experience with reptiles. As Doug mentioned PDFs are highly specialized. PDFs cost money. Dart frogs are not a good way for pet stores to make money (let's face it, who wants to spend 50 bucks on a frog!?). So, the pet stores you'll encounter locally are simply not specialized enough, or take the time to get to know their product in this case. Most are going to be fish stores that happen to carry some herps as well.

Take it from me, at least as long as you live in Utah County, support your local breeder. They know more, they'll sell healthier frogs to you, and you'll get them for cheaper. If you need help contacting a local breeder let me know and I'll direct you. Or, there are a surprising number of shipments that come in locally (to me, or to some of my PDFer friends up in SLC way), I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to go in on a shipment which will cut the shipping price significantly for you.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> You have to keep in mind, the breeder need x amount of money for their frog. If a pet shop decides to offer them, they have to mark them up. There is a lot of overhead in running a pet shop and they have to make a profit or go out of business. Do I just love paying the higher price at a pet shop...no, of course not. But just keep in mind, they have overhead...they have to mark a product up...and last but certainly not least, Nobody ever got rich running a local Mom and Pop pet shop! Their higher prices are a necessity to stay open.
> And no, I don't run a pet shop, but I have friends that do and trust me, they are not out to rip anyone off.
> Doug


I agree, Mom and Pop stores aren't evil. They're not out to scam people. However, the brands they carry are often lower quality at higher prices. There are plenty of items marketed for the pet consumer that are realistically only marked up because they know they can get more for it. There is a lot of overhead in running a mom and pop shop and it's not their fault. Even still though there are some store owners that are undoubtedly better than others. 




SmackoftheGods said:


> I cannot speak for pet stores in general. However, as one who happens to live in Orem, I can speak to the pet stores you will encounter locally. Your experience will be typically worse than your experience with reptiles. As Doug mentioned PDFs are highly specialized. PDFs cost money. Dart frogs are not a good way for pet stores to make money (let's face it, who wants to spend 50 bucks on a frog!?). So, the pet stores you'll encounter locally are simply not specialized enough, or take the time to get to know their product in this case. Most are going to be fish stores that happen to carry some herps as well.
> 
> Take it from me, at least as long as you live in Utah County, support your local breeder. They know more, they'll sell healthier frogs to you, and you'll get them for cheaper. If you need help contacting a local breeder let me know and I'll direct you. Or, there are a surprising number of shipments that come in locally (to me, or to some of my PDFer friends up in SLC way), I'm sure you'd be more than welcome to go in on a shipment which will cut the shipping price significantly for you.


I fully intend to buy from a local breeder. I was just curious if utah county was a good representation of the situation elsewhere in the country. I figured that it was, but was still curious. 

Thanks everyone for their responses.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

PeanutbuttER said:


> I agree, Mom and Pop stores aren't evil. They're not out to scam people. However, the brands they carry are often lower quality at higher prices. There are plenty of items marketed for the pet consumer that are realistically only marked up because they know they can get more for it. There is a lot of overhead in running a mom and pop shop and it's not their fault. Even still though there are some store owners that are undoubtedly better than others.


Yes, there are definitely some stores better than others. I have been to stores that I walked into, spent 2 minutes sizing it up, and walked out, never to return. And yeah, those of us with the imagination to find alternative products, or the inclination to seek out similar products, outside of the hobby, can certainly save some money that way. In the reefkeeping hobby, I was often able to find plumbing supplies, lighting products, and other stuff for cheaper than my local fish shop could get them for with their wholesale connections. So I'm not saying that pet shops are the end all to end all, just that we should try to understand where their higher prices come from.
Doug


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I agree with you. The "classic" example for tortoise keepers is cypress mulch. It's just about the best substrate you can use. Buy the zoomed or whatever brand and it's like $10 for a tiny little bag. Go to home depot and get a 2 cubic foot back for 3 or 4 bucks. Same thing, just packaged differently.

As much as I would love to see pet stores selling non-"petbrand" stuff, I don't think that will ever happen.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

There's a "reptile' store near me that had some auratus, leucomelas and auratus in the same tank with nothing but a stick and sphagnum moss... Oh and a SPONGE IN A BOWL. I asked what the sponge was for, and he said "they drink water like hermit crabs. they suck the water out of the sponge. they will drown [WILL!?!? might, not will) in 1 inch of water. plus it makes it easier for us." that guy was crazy... oh I forgot to mention, the Frogs were...





$169.95



they aren't very smart...


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## NMiamiguy40 (Feb 23, 2010)

I have only been to one pet store that was great with there animals. Actually its more of a reptile pet store. Called the Chicago Reptile Society in Orland Park, IL. they had great darts and many other reptiles. Other then that I have found that reptile shows have a pretty good selection. But you can fine many species right here.


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## JaysPDF (Dec 29, 2010)

its my dream to open a small pet store to supply and educate the every day customer on our amazing small animals. It has also been a couple other local small stores that have grown in my area. The problem is they start to focus more on expanding and cash rather then the animals themselves. The local store in my area that sells darts is about 25 min away. the cheapest dart is 70.00. it is a azureus that is held in a small critter keeper while all the other reptiles have well groomed habitats. the other darts are green sips also held in a critter keeper. The owner asked for me to sell my frogs to him and I asked for him to change his exhibits before I did. Nothing has changed since and I'm about to run out of his store with a group of sips. its sad to see them sit there. I would never sell him my frogs.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

So much of this hobby goes into the husbandry, research, and prep time ... 

A lot of the advantage of having a brick and mortar pet store is being able to have somebody walk in and say "i want one of those!" then you ring em up w/ all the fixins they need to take it home that day and have it be healthy and happy. I don't particularly think that's a good way to get into owning any kind of pet, but that tends to be the general population's method for the most part.

I'd hate to see the hobby degrading into everything else where spoiled kids walk out of the store w/ 2 azureus and a 10 gal w/ a repti-sun lamp, some plastic plants, a wooden hide, green astroturf, and a water dish. 

I've often wondered how the brick and mortar "dart store" would work out. You almost would have to build and sell complete vivs with the frogs. It'd be cool to see our kind of vivs take off the way high end fish tanks have. I'd like to be the guy that builds the multi-thousand dollar viv that that goes in some NBA player's living room and is shown off on MTV Cribs. Heck I'd even bring by flies and springs every couple weeks for a service fee.


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## JaysPDF (Dec 29, 2010)

btcope said:


> I'd like to be the guy that builds the multi-thousand dollar viv that that goes in some NBA player's living room and is shown off on MTV Cribs. Heck I'd even bring by flies and springs every couple weeks for a service fee.


I think your on to something here! haha...


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

You have to think of it like the fish community. Think of firebelly toads as the gold fish and simple freshwater topicals. Think of Pacmans and Whites Tree frogs as basic saltwater fish. Think of Darts and exotic tree frogs as saltwater Corals. Your basic pet store or Petsmart is not going to have saltwater corals and they also shouldn't be selling Darts. If a particular pet has very specific care requirements (ie Darts) they should not be found at a common petstore. First because, the common person walking in the door is not going to be able to properly take care of an exotic pet. Second, is that it takes specific training for the employees to know about the specific care of each type of pet. When you get to that point, most likely it is not a standard pet store. Anyone who thinks that petstores are simply gouging there customers for shear profits has never run a business. The average mom and pop pet store owner is not rich...the reality is they're barely surviving.


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## FunkyDragon (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey, PeanutbuttER! You're the first other person I've seen on the board from Provo. I'm actually setting up my first viv right now, and I think I know which two stores you are referring to with the frogs. Is the $50 in Orem and the $50-60 in American Fork? I actually haven't made it out to the one in AF yet but keep meaning to. Do they have anything worth looking at?


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> A frog in a pet shop has one little thing going against it that you will never know about. If the frogs are too dry, you can see that. If they weren't fed right, pretty obvious. But what about this? This week you see a pair of healthy looking Azureus in what we will call tank #4. Last week tank # 4 had a snake from Africa in it. The week before, tank #4 was keeping Anoles. The week before, it contained milk snakes, and a month ago, tank #4 held a tarantula. The tank has never been properly disinfected with bleach and maybe not even wiped out between animals.
> The million dollar question is...How many mystery pathogens have those cute little Azureus froglets been exposed to?
> Doug


not to mention the irritating hairs that the tarantula might have left


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

FunkyDragon said:


> Hey, PeanutbuttER! You're the first other person I've seen on the board from Provo. I'm actually setting up my first viv right now, and I think I know which two stores you are referring to with the frogs. Is the $50 in Orem and the $50-60 in American Fork? I actually haven't made it out to the one in AF yet but keep meaning to. Do they have anything worth looking at?


Hi Funky Dragon. Yep, those are the two. I like the AF store better personally. I picked up a couple huge pieces of cuttlebone while I was there for a good price. Their frogs are okay, but as others have said (especially Smack) it'd be better to buy from local breeders. The local froggers are all pretty open and friendly people and many have offered help in one way or another already. 

That's cool you're in provo. Are you a student by chance? 

The Orem store is actually one of my favorite stores to just walk around. They have so much reef and aquarium stuff that it's just a really cool experience being there. They started to carry reptile stuff a year or so ago if I remember right (don't quote me) and they aren't as good with reptiles. I only just recently noticed that they had amphibians and they've got a good sized exo terra they're keeping the dart frogs in. Check the hygrometer next time you're there. It was broken last time, reading about 20% humidity, but you could look inside and tell there was obviously more than 20% humidity (the frogs were not little shrinky-dinks yet for example.) And the clothes shop next door, super super cheap and gives my wife incentive to come with me when we head up there.


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

NMiamiguy40 said:


> Called the Chicago Reptile Society in Orland Park, IL.


It's actually the Chicago Reptile House.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

...From the point of view of an (extremely small) pet store owner + breeder...

As for quality of animals...
This is tough. No way can an average retail pet store breed everything it sells. (although that would be ideal!) Working with a wide variety of species like that just isn't feasible. So who does a retail store buy from? There's really two choices. Small breeders or big animal importers/factories. I say factories because to many big pet wholesalers pets are STRICTLY a commodity. Not a life. (Sorry if I sound preachy or like an animal rights nut. I'm not.) From what little experience I've had in the past couple months, the only disadvantage when buying from many small breeders is the cost of shipping vs using just one big supply house. Having said that - the quality difference is 100% noticeable and in my opinion completely worth it. (We don't sell WC animals and just about always buy from small breeders - some of which are on Dendroboard!  ) MANY mom & pop shops do that, too - but I haven't seen ANY chain stores follow suit.

As for selling the "off market" stuff...
Selling non-pet-brand stuff is an enthusiast thing - not so much an industry standard. I do it, tho - and I've gotten a lot of positive feedback from the locals because of it. Why would anyone spend $20 for a single bulb light fixture? Or $12+ for a "PLANT" bulb?! I mean come on.  In my opinion - it would be tougher to do in a non-niche market store. Luckily we only deal with reptiles & amphibians so most of our customers already (usually) know what they want. Lots of sponsors on here do that, too. (JoshsFrogs was one of the first to really expand to that, from what I remember!)

*So TEST the store!*
1) Play dumb! Pick an animal they have in stock _that you know about_ and ask, "how do I take care of this *****?" Then follow it up with a suggestion that you *KNOW* is wrong... If they steer you straight - great! If not... At least you know. It's better for whoever works at a place to say, "I don't know" as opposed to giving some BS answer that satisfies the customer enough to buy something at the expense of the animal. If they say, "I don't know, but I can look..." - honestly I'd mark that as a plus in my book.

2) Asking a store, "Where do you buy your animals?" probably won't get you the most honest (or polite) answer!  Search for commonly available WILD CAUGHT species for sale. Then ask if it's captive bred or not. "I don't know" means no, in this case.  Green tree frogs, fire bellied toads, iguanas, and anoles for extremely cheap are almost always WC. This should at least tell you about the principles held by the store's management. 

3) The most obvious test is the husbandry of an animal on display. If it's all wrong, that makes your job as a customer pretty easy. (think baby leopard geckos on sand, baby beardies surrounded by massive adult crickets, frogs in completely DRY terrariums, cramped/crowded cages, etc...) 

Honestly I hope people don't paint all pet stores as "bad" with a big brush... There are good guys out there too. See if your local store passes the test. 

edit: To clarify I have no (ZERO) experience with anything other than herp-related products & animals!


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

MeiKVR6 said:


> ...From the point of view of an (extremely small) pet store owner + breeder...
> 
> As for quality of animals...
> This is tough. No way can an average retail pet store breed everything it sells. (although that would be ideal!) Working with a wide variety of species like that just isn't feasible. So who does a retail store buy from? There's really two choices. Small breeders or big animal importers/factories. I say factories because to many big pet wholesalers pets are STRICTLY a commodity. Not a life. (Sorry if I sound preachy or like an animal rights nut. I'm not.) From what little experience I've had in the past couple months, the only disadvantage when buying from many small breeders is the cost of shipping vs using just one big supply house. Having said that - the quality difference is 100% noticeable and in my opinion completely worth it. (We don't sell WC animals and just about always buy from small breeders - some of which are on Dendroboard!  ) MANY mom & pop shops do that, too - but I haven't seen ANY chain stores follow suit.
> ...


That was perfect. Testing the employees is a great practice when instigating new stores. I agree about how it's much better for them to say "I don't know" than it is to make stuff up. I know they can't know everything about every animal, but they should at least know the basic stuff.


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

as someone who has worked off and on for 20+ years part time in pet stores i have seen a common thread in all...they usually start out knowing alot about one particular thing.(i.e. one was a dog breeder and another bred snakes and was a reef tank guy for years). but as their business expanded they "had" to branch out into things they new nothing about in general. usually they either depended on the wholesaler giving them the 10 minute speech on caring and housing etc. or they picked up from trusted locals. both i have found to be very unreliable at best. 
now one of the guys i worked for took time to learn what was needed to keep and maintain what he sold. his motto was "to learn how to make the animal thrive in his small environment, not just survive". to me that was prophetic as it gets.
the other guy just saw new animals as inventory and what he needed to sell as "go-withs". so his goal was to put together a bundle package for each animal (tank, background, food bowl, etc. etc.). sell it all at a "discount" group price and then get them out the door. deal done. would they succeed? he really didn't care. his motto was" i could sell a dead horse to a farmer".
i would try to explain that if you sell a 10 gallon aquarium and proper gear for a freshwater tank AND provided useful info then eventually that 10 gallon owner would return and buy a 30 gallon then a 55 and so on. 
one example i always used about him was someone would come in wit ha dead tetra from their ten gallon tank. after a few minutes i would see them at the register with $25 worth of chemicals and medications. if i could get to them before they bought it i would take everything from their hands and drop it in a basket and say,"let me show you what i would do". i then would walk them over to the supply aisle and pick up a 89 cent net and say," scoop out the fish and flush 'em, stop feeding three times a day and only feed every other or every third day. and do a water change with a couple gallons of distilled water". and send them on their way. a couple weeks later they would come back in and say how great everything is doing. 
never failed they would eventually buy a bigger tank and better equipment and people would come in and ask specifically for me saying "so and so said i should talk to you"
it is very simple to do but most pet stores" DO NOT CARE .period. that is why most pet stores barely eke by. the ones who take the time to do things right thrive mainly by word of mouth. i will travel a couple hours to a place i know is worth the time. 
this has always been a very sore subject to me and i am sorry to dump on you guys here. but sometimes the therapeutic value is immeasurable.

so find a decent pet store and show them you support their efforts by buying from. and let them know why you are patronizing their business.

thank you and good night.

AG


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

MeiKVR6 said:


> ...From the point of view of an (extremely small) pet store owner + breeder...


There are great differences between you, and others like you, and a 'pet store'

For example, even if you purchase animals (from breeders or wholesalers or wherever) we know that you are taking good care of them from that point until sale. And we also know that you would never pass on a sick or questionable animal to a customer. 

You are more like a beloved hobbyist who also happens to have a store


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## blaster40 (Oct 10, 2010)

Great point !


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Unfortunately not everyone has the Fortune of having a Local Breeder. My Closest "local breeder" is over 150 miles away.

Availability is not always guaranteed at either a Breeder or Pet Store

For Me I can Say this 
I prefer to pick my Animals...I don't want someone else picking my animals for me.
Picking up an Animal at my leisure is way better than trying to Arrange delivery when I can be here or worry about the Animal arriving when it is Freezing outside or a Typical 100+ degree day here in North Texas.
I like being able to just go to the store and Walk in without Notice..Very Very Few Breeders just like having Strangers knock on the Door during Dinner or Bath time for the Kids.

A Side Note...I have No Local Breeder or Local Store that sells PDFs so I am Stuck with Traveling 150 Miles to Local Breeders or Shows.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yea not many in my immediate area either. Some of my frogs I got from rcteem after he purchased them from a breeder. Others I got from the show we have 2x a year.

I even drove 8 hours to Baltimore to pick up a frog from Philsuma. Well worth the drive!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Hi Funky Dragon. Yep, those are the two. I like the AF store better personally. I picked up a couple huge pieces of cuttlebone while I was there for a good price. Their frogs are okay, but as others have said (especially Smack) it'd be better to buy from local breeders. The local froggers are all pretty open and friendly people and many have offered help in one way or another already.
> 
> That's cool you're in provo. Are you a student by chance?
> 
> The Orem store is actually one of my favorite stores to just walk around. They have so much reef and aquarium stuff that it's just a really cool experience being there. They started to carry reptile stuff a year or so ago if I remember right (don't quote me) and they aren't as good with reptiles. I only just recently noticed that they had amphibians and they've got a good sized exo terra they're keeping the dart frogs in. Check the hygrometer next time you're there. It was broken last time, reading about 20% humidity, but you could look inside and tell there was obviously more than 20% humidity (the frogs were not little shrinky-dinks yet for example.) And the clothes shop next door, super super cheap and gives my wife incentive to come with me when we head up there.


The one in American Fork and its sister store in Orem have some good things going for them as was mentioned above. However, dart husbandry is awful. Several years ago I walked into this store and found auratus kepts in a 20 gallon tank with a screen lid and a cocohut. The auratus were extremely underweight and being fed 1/4 inch crickets (which the auratus would not eat). This company knows nothing about their dart frogs and only gets them in when a "local wholesaler" (which they will not give me the name of) has excess and gives them remarkable deals.

The one being mentioned in Orem is a better store in this regard. I've spoken with the owner a number of times and he actually seems to care enough about the animals that he's selling to try to keep them in a pretty reasonable condition. He breeds his own fruit flies, he dusts, whatever.... The exo terra he's keeping does have a number of different morphs of tinctorius in addition to leucomelas and occasionally auratus being kept in the same tank at any given time. I highly suspect that these frogs are stressed. They're still in better shape than the former store, though.

As I mentioned earlier, any of the frogs sold at either of the stores mentioned can be obtained with a better lineage, better overall health, and cheaper, when obtained either locally or in a combined shipment with some of the other local froggers.


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## FunkyDragon (Sep 13, 2010)

I think I'm gonna play devil's advocate (some of you may think literally) for a minute, just because I can. 

The thread has concentrated mostly on the shortcomings of pet stores. Sure, there's been a couple reminders about the difficulties they face (overhead and mark up), but a lot of people seem to say that buying from local breeders (or online) is best. I won't deny you can get them cheaper or possibly healthier or with better (ie experienced) advice, but there's one major aspects that hasn't been addressed:

If stores don't sell frogs, they don't make a profit off them, and then they no longer try to sell them. Doesn't that hurt the hobby? It's not as if I can just randomly wander into the local breeder's livingroom and discover the wonderful world of dart frogs. In fact, it was in a local store that I first grew to like these little guys. It seems to me that if stores can generate more exposure for the hobby, they're not entirely evil. Of course, that's just my two cents, and I haven't even bought my first frogs yet.



angry gary said:


> so find a decent pet store and show them you support their efforts by buying from. and let them know why you are patronizing their business.


I can side with this. I will say that I always prefer going to the local stores before the chains.




PeanutbuttER said:


> That's cool you're in provo. Are you a student by chance?


I'm not a student anymore, though that is what brought me here. How about yourself?


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Student, so the same thing brought me here. Let me know when you get started on your viv. Maybe we could go in on a plant order or something. 

I actually tore-down my 18" exo terra cube tonight and got it all cleaned up and ready to work with. Now I've got my "blank canvas"  Its turned out to have been a pretty dang good deal. I bought the cube for 70 on KSL and it came with a LOT of extra stuff that I in turn posted cheaply on KSL. If you count what I've sold against the price of the cube I'm currently at having paid 35 for it and there's about $20 left of stuff to sell... SWEET!


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

if you are usig an 18" exo i would think hard about not putting a water feature in it. it will take up alot more room in such a small enclosure. wait until you are building a large build. i will not build another water feature in any thing smaller than a 75 gallon tank. a 75 has plenty of room to work in and it will not take up as much space proportionally to the smaller exo.

also i would greatly recommend you visit another frogger in your area if possible. you can look at how they have done their tanks and you can ask a million questions and get answers immediately. i went this route and it was so much easier for me in the long run.


AG


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## FunkyDragon (Sep 13, 2010)

angry gary said:


> if you are usig an 18" exo i would think hard about not putting a water feature in it. it will take up alot more room in such a small enclosure. wait until you are building a large build. i will not build another water feature in any thing smaller than a 75 gallon tank.


I'm sorta finding this out the hard way. I had a rock wall carved and ready to grout when I decided to scrap it and go a different route. I decided to use real rock set in a foam wall for my second attempt, so I went and picked out some small rocks. Only, once I had foamed them in place, I started to realize they weren't so small in proportion to the exoterra. But I'm just gonna go for it at this point, and I'll just have to apply the lesson on my next viv.



PeanutbuttER said:


> Let me know when you get started on your viv. Maybe we could go in on a plant order or something.


Sure. I've got the structure done, and I'm going to start coating it in cocofiber and titebond today. I'll probably be placing a plant order from BlackJungle sometime in the next 2-3 weeks if you're ready and want to split shipping. Also, I found a local who said he can spare some riccia and HC (dwarf baby tears).


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

FunkyDragon said:


> If stores don't sell frogs, they don't make a profit off them, and then they no longer try to sell them. Doesn't that hurt the hobby? It's not as if I can just randomly wander into the local breeder's livingroom and discover the wonderful world of dart frogs.


No. this does not hurt our hobby. If anything I would say this helps our hobby.

Amphibians are highly specialized animals and they are usually the lowest of the low of the herp hobby. Pet stores don't take the time to get the information that they need to properly care for our animals. So pet stores tend to perpetuate misinformation. One of the biggest factors that can hurt our hobby is getting a bunch of new people in the hobby that don't care enough about their animals to do the research that they need to do to properly take care of their animals. Pet stores are renouned for telling a consumer anything they want to hear in order to sell their animals. This is exactly the kind of thing that can destroy our hobby.

Think about other posts on the board about how people used to see True Blue Jeans sold in pet stores for 20 bucks a piece. However, due to the perpetuation of misinformation Blue Jeans are some of the most expensive and rarest frogs in the hobby. The same can be said for histrionicus and sylvaticus. If, instead of being sold to pet stores, these animals had originally been released to responsible hobbyists, the captive population of these frogs could be significantly more stable.

I'm not going to say that pet stores are the bane of our hobby's existence.... But they kind of are (at least as they apply to our specific hobby and the health and information spread about frogs and their husbandry. Pet stores provide plenty of wonderful things when it comes to supplies to build tanks and such).


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

FunkyDragon said:


> I'm sorta finding this out the hard way. I had a rock wall carved and ready to grout when I decided to scrap it and go a different route. I decided to use real rock set in a foam wall for my second attempt, so I went and picked out some small rocks. Only, once I had foamed them in place, I started to realize they weren't so small in proportion to the exoterra. But I'm just gonna go for it at this point, and I'll just have to apply the lesson on my next viv.
> 
> 
> 
> Sure. I've got the structure done, and I'm going to start coating it in cocofiber and titebond today. I'll probably be placing a plant order from BlackJungle sometime in the next 2-3 weeks if you're ready and want to split shipping. Also, I found a local who said he can spare some riccia and HC (dwarf baby tears).


Sounds good. My goal is to get the background, drainage, and substrate installed this week, so when you are almost ready to order let me know.


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## gothic dart frog (Jan 16, 2011)

theres a petco near me that has the most dirtyest enclosures and sickest animals iv ever seen, i NEVER buy animals from there especialy after they sold me a leopard gecko with impaction and im sorry to say it only lasted for three months


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