# Leucomelas--aggression/territoriality?



## Jaeger (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm new to the hobby. Wanting to have several frogs on display, I obtained 3 leucomelas (0.0.3) from a reputable owner (currently a herp keeper in a zoo in Ohio), which I believe had previously been housed together in a slightly larger group in his private collection.

I moved these frogs into about 27 gallons of a new enclosure on 12/24. Initially, all 3 were VERY timid, and spent most of their time hiding. OVer the past week or so, 2 of the three have come out of their shell, so to speak, and are rather active and explorative. The other individual initially spent much of the time hiding behind/underneath the spray foam background ($&*^* shrinkage!), and now that I've plugged a few holes with sphagnum, spends the majority of the day wedged between the very edge of the foam and the glass in the top back of the terrarium. I have occasionally seen it out eating springtails, but rarely, and I haven't observed fruit fly hunting.

I have not witnessed anything that I could definitely call aggressive behavior--no pile-ons or male-male amplexus sort of events. I also haven't seen any obvious injuries, or clear indiction the frog is ill. Should I be worried about the situation? Am I being paranoid, and not giving the little critter adequate time to acclimate? Is this the weak one of the group being edged out?


----------



## Greg (Dec 25, 2007)

D. luecomelas is one of the less territorial species of dart frogs and are supposed to do quite well in groups (I don't have any lukes myself so I can't give you a first person opinion but I have some dart frogs and have read a lot about lukes and other species). Luecomelas are also supposed to be one of the more bold species of dart frog. Most dart frogs are shy when being placed in a enviorment, the shyness should wear off after a few days once they get familiar with their new home. This seems to fit your case quite well. Also with most dart frogs its the females that are the more territorial, I have a couple of azureus and with those frogs you can't put the females together because they can hurt or even kill the less dominant female. I have not heard of this happening with lukes though. Your frogs should do just fine, give them a few days and they will probably be hopping all around the terrarium.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Don't discount individual personalities either- 'boldness' is very much a relative term with respect to group dynamics, the conditions of the tank, and the individual frogs. I've seen shy leucs and bold as heck auratus, so there's no absolutes.

Just keep an eye on this frog- as long as it's not losing weight, all should be well. 

Good luck with them- leucs are great!


----------



## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

do you have any pictures of the tank? My leucs were extremely shy for a long time. I had to keep adding plants to their tank. They feel more comfortable with more hiding places. They will come out more if they know that safety is just a hop away. Mine are out all the time now, and their tanks is very heavily planted.


----------



## aguz1126 (Nov 3, 2006)

My personal experience with leucs has been that they take a while to get aclimated to their tank. Very thick plant cover and a multi level setup has really brought them out of hidding for me.


----------



## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

I've had similar experiences with my 3 leucs. while not shy they have a pecking order. I see two together more often than not while the third one is more reclusive. 
The three of them tend to gather as a group only to eat when a large amount of prey is in one area and at night when they spend the night in a "cave" (wedged upside-down no less) in a cork log that's about three inches from the top of the 29 gal viv. they call home. There are three other cave/voids in the same log but they cluster in the higher one as a group. 
Hiding places = security and leucs. have an affinity for the vertical and they like it dense with ground cover also; leaf litter is a plus. You will enjoy their behavior when they have a few large-leafed plants to climb and leap from. 
I have also observed one or the other leuc. spend some time in a burrow under a log near the front of the tank or in the underside of some moss with just a head peaking out. A dark area behind a peice of rose quartz is also popular.
You can remove places for them to hide if you think they are unsafe but don't strees them otherwise. Just keep an eye on the smaller one to make sure it eats. 

Have fun with them


There are


----------



## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

From both advice from others and experience, I've found that new frogs, especially froglets or juveniles, should spend some time in small, simple "nursery" tanks before introducing them into the larger vivarium together. This gives you a chance to monitor their feeding habits, personalities and boldness, as well as any signs of disease or "failure to thrive." A frog that hides all of the time, compared to others of the species, may be a sick frog for some reason, which we sometimes can't diagnose merely by its activity, or lack of it. This is harder to control when one just puts them all together in a tank upon receiving them. 

This said, in your circumstance, I would just keep offering fruit flies, and you apparently also have springtails that it is eating. The hiding frog may be getting more than you observe, and will eventually come out of hiding.


----------



## Jaeger (Nov 22, 2007)

Thanks for everyone's advice!

I probably should have housed them separately initially; I guess I just got complacent knowing these were adult frogs who had previously been living together in a group setting, and didn't figure it would be a problem.

The tank is fairly heavily planted, although a few more wouldn't hurt. As an update, I have seen it up and hitting (apparent) springtails a bit more. It just seems to be an early riser. 

Hopefully I'll be able to get some pics up soon--the design's pretty cool, IMHO. 55 gal, divided in half by a glass divider, with a branch cut in half siliconed across the glass to give the illusion of a community tank. Setup on an Oak Express sofa table (fits like a glove) with a self-made custom oak hood and trim. Plus the usual waterfall, drip wall, and some very pretty broms and ground cover.


----------



## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

Sweet, 

Sounds like a roomy setup with plenty of space to avoid agression so as long as your runty guy is eating I think he'll be good.

I did the same thing with my trio of leucs. I had them in s Steralite for only a few days while I finished-up my viv. since they were large sub-adults and had been together before I got them I saw no point in isolation.


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Just a couple points.
I have witnessed the very worst aggression/fighting experienced with Darts between two female leucs with a lone male in the group. Absolutely had to pull one of the females.
I would suggest doing a very important search on 'quarantine'. 

Rich


----------



## argus411 (Feb 17, 2004)

[/quote]I have witnessed the very worst aggression/fighting experienced with Darts between two female leucs with a lone male in the group. Absolutely had to pull one of the females


> I have experienced this exact senario also.


----------



## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

Ok Rich & Argus. I've heard of Leuc extreme agression only from the two of you. Now these sound like personal observations not a generallity from a book but I'm not having any luck finding anything written by Rich in the past about these two PDFs fighting.
One of the reasons I invested time and money on Leus is because all the research I did indicated that they were a good beginner PDF and could be kept in groups without undue agression. So far its been fine for my trio.

Don't get me wrong observing natural behavior is what happens when things go _right_ with the hobby but I don't want to lose any frogs due to ignorance on my part.
I'd like to hear more about what happend in both your cases or maybe you could point me in the right direction to find your original reports.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Female-female aggression with the tinc group species is pretty well documented, and sex ratios of the group seem to be a big factor in the severity of that aggression. When a group runs female heavy, leucs can get pretty nasty. As with all things Dendro, your mileage may vary and being observant can nip problematic behavior in the bud before it gets too ugly.


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

RRRavelo said:


> Ok Rich & Argus. I've heard of Leuc extreme agression only from the two of you. Now these sound like personal observations not a generallity from a book but I'm not having any luck finding anything written by Rich in the past about these two PDFs fighting.
> One of the reasons I invested time and money on Leus is because all the research I did indicated that they were a good beginner PDF and could be kept in groups without undue agression. So far its been fine for my trio.
> 
> Don't get me wrong observing natural behavior is what happens when things go _right_ with the hobby but I don't want to lose any frogs due to ignorance on my part.
> I'd like to hear more about what happend in both your cases or maybe you could point me in the right direction to find your original reports.


It was a pretty simple thing actually. I had a 1:2 set-up. The females fought tooth and nail until I removed one female and the 1:1 breeding took off. This is the only experience I have had with Leucs so I am by no means and expert in their habits but the fighting was quite real and has been one of the very few times I have had any aggression with the need to separate.


Rich


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

RRRavelo said:


> I did the same thing with my trio of leucs. I had them in s Steralite for only a few days while I finished-up my viv. since they were large sub-adults and had been together before I got them I saw no point in isolation.


I have to ask. What the reasoning is behind this? Is the fact that they are older somehow going to take care of any illness they may have?
Again, I suggest a very important search on 'quarantine'. One of the very most important steps in the husbandry of keeping healthy frogs. Or fish, or corals , or.....


Rich


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Add more hiding places to the tank including plants (leucs like to wedge themselves places and might actually like broms for this reason), leaf litter, and coco huts (I try and make sure there is one per frog at least). This will make the frog feel more comfortable knowing it's got a bolt hole to go to, and has one just in case the other frogs kick them out of a preferred bolt hole.

All PDFs are territorial, and under the wrong circumstances can be seriously aggressive - leucs are no exception and the aggression is not always the obvious constant wrestling. This is particularly a problem in new tanks (setting up new territories) where one sex may outnumber the other, and especially in trios and quads... the weakest may get picked on badly enough to cause issues (groups of 5 or more usually have the aggression spread out enoug that it's less of an issue). The worst cases are when there isn't enough "territory" to go around, and the odd frog out is left with no hide spot or anything to feel comfortable with (why people think one coco hut in with 4 frogs is ok I will never understand).

It's still early (it can take months for some frogs to acclimate) but tossing in some extra hide spots never hurts.


----------



## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

Rich do you mean to say that you would seperate a batch of PDFs that has been housed together by a breeder when you take them home?
Would this not stress them more than acclimating in a viv where they are together and conditions are more like where they were before?

I purchased older leucs. so they would be more robust than say a froglet trio. Since they were my first attempt at PDFs I thought this would be safer. 

Maybe I waisted the extra cash I paid as the auratus froglets I got the same day (my 12 year old son talked me into getting them as we were leaving the show) are catching-up quickly. 

I guess I'm missing the point about who or what you would be quaranting them for or from. I'll have to get better at the search feature!!

Thanks


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

RRRavelo said:


> Rich do you mean to say that you would seperate a batch of PDFs that has been housed together by a breeder when you take them home?
> Would this not stress them more than acclimating in a viv where they are together and conditions are more like where they were before?
> 
> I purchased older leucs. so they would be more robust than say a froglet trio. Since they were my first attempt at PDFs I thought this would be safer.
> ...


All frogs big or small, old or young should be quarantined. One of the reasons for quarantine is to make sure the frogs are healthy. Ask what this means to a sample here and you may get anything from 'watching to make sure they eat', to actually doing some testing to make sure the frogs are healthy. But the frogs , since I am sure they were probably housed together before you got them, can be tested together before putting them into a tank. The tank is now contaminated if those frogs have any disease or parasite infestation. As opposed to a small disposable or washable quarantine 'tub'. There are other reasons but that is a big one and a good one to start with.
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13355

Rich


----------



## argus411 (Feb 17, 2004)

RRRavelo,

My personal experience was the same as Rich's. 1.2 Were kept in I think a 29 gallon. There were plenty of visual barriers, but for some reason the dominant female was constantly fighting and pinning the other female. Much more severe and constant than I have seen in azureus. The aggression was so severe that I pulled the subordinate not long after.
**side note Clutches of eggs were found during the trio and after I removed the subordinate female. The average number of eggs increased after I pulled the other female.

On the other end of the spectrum I had a 1.2 trio that appeared to get along fine. The same subordinate female, with one of the offspring from the original pair and a male that I observed to call only twice in a 7 month period. There was no known clutches of eggs in that tank in over a year. All were of breeding age.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that once again, everyones case differs. But for so many people to praise leucs as excellent "group" frogs I thought it should be known that even leucs are capable of aggression and that it is something that people should be on the lookout for.

Adam


----------



## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

Thanks Adam and Rich for your insights,

It's good to know about potential behavior that may happen. I'll be on the lookout for any undue agression. Just they type of info you pick up from other Board member's personal observations that you don't get from any other source. 

As to the quarantine question I have to admit to being a bit impatient in wanting to see my first PDFs in their viv. Even after more than a casual amount of research before approaching PDfs there were still a lot of things to learn and the Board has hepled. Keep in mind that I joined it a month _after_ getting my first PDfs home. 

Thanks,
Nice to pick up new ideas and insights and thanks also to Jeager for starting the discussion. Keep us posted!


----------



## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

OK, with my new frogs, four Leucs, they are very bold

But still spend much time hiding.

I have a tree fern panel on the back and they go under it between the dirt, and on top, to hide/sleep/and for fun I assume.

Yours sound very close to mine.

Don't worry about them hiding, this is what mine do, and mine come down for food, as well as just to explore. But if I go over there and make a ruckus, they will go climb up background and hide, as well as if too many people other than me go over there they will hide.

As long as they are eating, it should be fine. They sound happy. Mine are in a 40g with water in corner.


----------

