# A few quick questions



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I want to start making sure that my frogs are truly healthy not just to the naked eye, but inside as well. I don't want to come across as someone who is just in ASN to have the little blue name, I want to up my effort to follow the rules, so that eventually if I have froglets and if I want to trade or sell them, I can make sure that I wont pass on any diseases. 

So, I looked in this section of the forum to look for some answers, but want to be clear:

1. Once you de-worm and treat the frogs, can they pick it up again if it is in their tank? 
2. How does quarantining actually help the frogs, it seems like they would be stressed and not act normally because of not being in familiar surroundings. 
3.How long in general do most medicines last before they expire, how often do you need to buy them ( are they pretty pricy?).
4. Where do you obtain most of these basic treatments, for worms and parasites and stuff. And where can you get sampling kits for testing for Chyitdrid?(not sure on the spelling).
5. If all your frogs have been "cleaned" of bugs, is it still not okay to swap plants from tanks?

So try and answer as many of the questions you can, as soon as I know what i need and about how much it costs, it will be easier to figure out where I can get money for these expenses. Any other info you think I should know please inform me. 

Thanks, Mac


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Mac said:


> I want to start making sure that my frogs are truly healthy not just to the naked eye, but inside as well. I don't want to come across as someone who is just in ASN to have the little blue name, I want to up my effort to follow the rules, so that eventually if I have froglets and if I want to trade or sell them, I can make sure that I wont pass on any diseases.
> 
> So, I looked in this section of the forum to look for some answers, but want to be clear:
> 
> ...


hey mac...sorry for being so harsh on asn protocols but as an asn member i assume all should provide proper quarantines including length of time and fecals. i'll help answer some of your questions.

1.yes thier tank will need to be broken down, sanitized properly, and will harbor the parasites after you deworm and treat and cause reinfestation as soon as the darts are reintroduced. . thats why we should do it before hand. 45 minimum quarantine, 90 optimal, and three consecutive fecals. now if your fecals come up :dirty: you will need to wait three weeks after treatment to fecal again and will have to start over on the re-feacling process to make sure the treatment was successful.

2. a proper quarantine shouldnt stress the frogs, yes it seems like an unproper environment, but with a disease, they would be more stressed in an infected viv by the disease building up in their bodies. if the quarantine is placed somewhere with minimal traffic in the house and has hiding spots etc, you'll be good. 

3. contact dr.frye on the medicines. i would get his first aid kits. comes in handy when there is a problem and you do need it asap. i think i paid a bit over 100.00 for 3 tablesponns of panacur a dewormer....about 8.00 a tablespoon, i cant remember the cost of the baytril, ssd, or the metronidazole)which needs to be kept in the dark. you can ask him on expiration dates, but i'd like to venture a year? once again, contact dr.frye for accurate info.

4. dr. frye sells these treatment online to your door. pices molecular sells the chytrid tests and they can be quite spendy( might be best to go in on the cost of the kits with some members of the board...i know i'd go in on it witn ya. you would have to contact pices molecular and i think they charge 20.00 alone just to have the tests done, not including the tet kits and instructions. dr. frye does fecals....for 18.00 per group of darts that have been in contact, not per frog, and they need to be sent 1st or second day mail....he is not available wed. so dont have fecals arrive on a wed. get directions from him how to send. Remember...not everything can show up in a fecal...fungal infections, some baterial infecyions , viruses, etc, wont show up. now thats atleast 3 consecutive fecals over a 45-90 day quarantine. if two come up good, dont assume the third wont. i have has the third come in finally with hook. hate that. but what can you do except want the best for your darts health and for them to live a long life right? i would refecal parents after clean or if clean once a year personally. making sure you wash hands thoroughly before handling each viv to not cross contaminate if one happened to be contaminated. 

5. some people do swap plants from tanks. I don't. i would think they would need to be thouroughly disinfected first before introducing, but making sure you have clean vivs and keeping up with proper husbandry will help eliminate any potential pathogens from being tranferred.

mac: happy you are taking the initiative to do this. yes, offering as healthy of darts you can to the hobby is both beneficial to the darts and to the potential customers who buy your darts. i know i would much rather buy darts from someone who does stand by asn protocols than buy darts from those who do not. then there are imports to consider...now that is a risk you take so making sure you do, do all these steps will help insure you get them healthy and treated accordingly etc. kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Mac -

First, I want to commend you for striving to be a better amphibian steward. This is one of the main purposes of ASN. 

But I also want to make a general comment on the quarantine guidelines accepted by ASN. These quidelines were set forth by the CBSG/WAZA Amphibian Ex Situ Conservation Planning Workshop held in El Valle, Panama 2006. These guidelines were generated to prevent transmission of disease to wild amphibians. ASN decided to adopt these guidelines for stewards given the stringency of the highest levels of quarantine, as the hope is that in the future ASN stewards will be able to help with working with species in need of ex situ management. Therefore, not all stewards will meet, or need to meet all of the guidelines. The guidelines recommended are those of Quarantine level 3:



> Animals are processed through normal health screening procedures. Treatment for known
> disease risks (e.g., chytridiomycosis) apply. For disposal requirements for bedding, carcasses, 29
> etc., standards set above for highest quarantine level apply.


However, the higher quarantine guidelines serve to give stewards something to strive for. Many of them are logical best practices if possible (i.e. quarantining new acquisitions in a separate room). 

But in the end, if a steward goes from no testing at all to regular fecal testing and maintains best practices of quarantine and treatment - than that is a huge step in the right direction. One of the major goals is to have stewards become familiar with these practices and protocols, and employ as many of them as they feasibly can.

Now to your questions:



> 1. Once you de-worm and treat the frogs, can they pick it up again if it is in their tank?


Short answer is yes, long answer maybe or no. It depends on the parasite, its life-cycle, and the conditions of the tank. Some pathogens have a free-living life cycle, and can survive without frogs in the tank for a period of time. Then when frogs are reintroduced, they can reinfect. Others may not have a free-living intermediate, but are stable enough in the tank to survive the period where no frogs are present. One other thing that seems to be commonly overlooked is that not all infectious diseases of frogs will show up on a fecal (in fact, only a very small percentage will). Bacteria, fungus, viruses and some parasites won't be detected on a fecal. So, a negative fecal does not mean your animal is healthy. If you own other pets - that would be like saying the only way to know if your dog or cat is sick or not is to take a fecal sample to the vet once a year. While it is a great practice, it is not a catch-all test.

Ideally - frogs would be QTd, tested (and treated if necessary) before going into a clean viv. Once they are in - the system can be maintained as a closed system. Nothing new goes in (unless sterile), and you take precautions to make sure not to introduce anything during feeding/maintenance (wearing gloves, washing hands between tanks, clean tools/instruments, etc.)



> 2. How does quarantining actually help the frogs, it seems like they would be stressed and not act normally because of not being in familiar surroundings.


In a properly designed quarantine container, the frogs can be comfortable. If pulling frogs from a viv, then yes, they may be stressed in a new environment. But, if receiving new frogs and placing them in a QT container, then they are already stressed from travel, etc. There is also the argument that even in their tanks, the frogs are not acting "normally" in comparison to their wild environment, but that is a different conversation.

The goal of QT is to keep an animal separate and under observation for a period of time to attempt to limit the introduction of disease. The hope is that if an animal is sick, it will show signs of that sickness while in QT. Will this always work? No. The assumption if the frog seems healthy and tests fecal negative after a period in quarantine - it is ok. But that may not be the case. There may be infections that are latent during the period of quarantine. One benefit of the "stress" of QT, is that with stress, immune responses of the animal are decreased - and latent infections can become active in the host and you may be able pick up on signs of those infections. But, there are other cases where that may not be true. We don't know enough about all of the infectious diseases of amphibians to make that call. For example, in snakes, it is believed that 50% of boids are infected with a retrovirus that causes disease in a small percentage of the snakes (inclusion body disease). But - QT of the vast majority of those snakes would not identify them as being "sick". There needs to be a specific test. 



> 3.How long in general do most medicines last before they expire, how often do you need to buy them ( are they pretty pricy?).


The shelf life is variable for each medication. Some are very stable, and others not so much. You also need to make sure that you store each medication in the appropriate manner. Your vet can give you this information. Cost is also dependant on the medication - some can be cheap (metronidazole) others can be quite expensive (itraconazole).



> 4. Where do you obtain most of these basic treatments, for worms and parasites and stuff. And where can you get sampling kits for testing for Chyitdrid?(not sure on the spelling).


Before treating any animal, it is important that you at the least consult with a veterinarian, and a visit is often preferable. Many of the appropriate medications require a prescription. Vets will also better understand the side-effects of the medications, which can be very severe. To try and find a vet in your area, you can start with searching the membership directory of the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians (http://www.arav.org/ECOMARAV/timssnet/amm/tnt_mdsearch.cfm). These are veterinarians who have registered for ARAV, and presumably have some experience with reptiles or amphibians. I would contact the vets in your area to see what their particular experience is.

Chytrid testing is done by a few companies in the US. Pisces Molecular (located in CO) offers small-scale testing for the public. You can check out their website Home Page | Pisces Molecular for contact info. Send them an email or give them a call and they can let you know all of the details.

Also, ASN is working on getting a program set-up that initially will offer a few free chytrid tests to stewards. We are also considering the idea of offering regular testing for stewards at cost through a special project with diagnostic lab. I can't go into much more detail right now, but I hope to have more information in the near future.




> 5. If all your frogs have been "cleaned" of bugs, is it still not okay to swap plants from tanks?


Again, short answer - no. I would still take the precaution of limiting movement of anything from tank to tank. The best way would be to maintain each tank as a closed system. But, there are processes that you can do to sterilize tank material (soaking cuttings in bleach, baking wood, etc.). But, I would limit it as much as possible. 

Another thing to mention - is that no tank will ever be sterile - and no "healthy" tank should be sterile. Bacteria and fungi are important for the breakdown of matter within the tank. While normally non-pathogenic, some of these organisms can facultatively cause infection if the conditions are right (i.e. a wound to the frog). There is nothing you can do to prevent this. Just watch your frogs - and when you notice something wrong, take them to a vet, have them examined and administer the appropriate treatment. 

So I know this was very long - and I hope you have read this far. But you asked some really good questions that I am sure many people are asking themselves.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

Oz
ASN director


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

kristy55303 said:


> you would have to contact pices molecular and i think they charge 20.00 alone just to have the tests done, not including the tet kits and instructions.


The last I checked with John Wood of Pisces, individual tests were $38 each without the sample kits (but that was a couple of months ago, it may have changed). Sample kits could be purchased in bulk (I believe 50 for $50) - but he will send you the list of things you need to buy to make your own test kits if you prefer.

You can pool samples from multiple frogs in a single run. If it is positive, then you will need to go back and retest all frogs from the pooled sample individually. If negative, then you assume all frogs were negative. Pisces will also pool individually collected samples for you for a fee, and then if there is a positive on the pooled sample - they still have the individual samples on hand to retest if you desire. It is quicker than sending more samples.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> The last I checked with John Wood of Pisces, individual tests were $38 each without the sample kits (but that was a couple of months ago, it may have changed). Sample kits could be purchased in bulk (I believe 50 for $50) - but he will send you the list of things you need to buy to make your own test kits if you prefer.
> 
> You can pool samples from multiple frogs in a single run. If it is positive, then you will need to go back and retest all frogs from the pooled sample individually. If negative, then you assume all frogs were negative. Pisces will also pool individually collected samples for you for a fee, and then if there is a positive on the pooled sample - they still have the individual samples on hand to retest if you desire. It is quicker than sending more samples.


got it. thanks. i am in process of going to register all my darts with asn as well. been reading the handbook atleast a few times lol. would be great if they offered chytrid tests for free.....thanks kristy


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

The program is still in development, but initially we are planning to offer a limited number of tests for free (priority given to stewards). There will be more information in the near future about this program.

In the future, there may be the possibility of offering steward testing regularly for discounted prices. But, this is very tentative right now.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

rozdaboff said:


> The program is still in development, but initially we are planning to offer a limited number of tests for free (priority given to stewards). There will be more information in the near future about this program.
> 
> In the future, there may be the possibility of offering steward testing regularly for discounted prices. But, this is very tentative right now.


very cool. got it. kristy


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Ok, I read every word lol, so now would I have to tear down all the tanks I have? I really dont want to do that, is there any other way I can get around having to do this?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Great Mac - glad you haven't been scared off yet 

I would start with collecting fecals from the frogs. Make sure to collect the fecal appropriately. One way to do this is to remove the frog from the tank and set up in a "sterile" temporary container with a make-shift hide and moist unbleached paper towels. This limits the chance that any worms seen in the sample are from contamination with soil nematodes. Have those fecals checked by a qualified vet.

If they come back positive and you need to start treatment, you will likely need to strip the tank. You should also perform the treatment in a temporary/QT container and regularly change out the substrate. Remember - you are only treating the parasites present in the frog, not generating a protective response by the frog - so they can become reinfected when the medications drop below therapeutic levels.

If the fecals come back negative - you should have the sample checked again in a couple of weeks. The complicating issue here is that if you put the frog back into the original tank - there is always the potential for infection during the time between fecal checks. But, if you get successive negative fecals (3 is recommended) from the frogs in the tank - then theoretically, you could leave the tank the way it is.

Oz


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

rozdaboff said:


> The program is still in development, but initially we are planning to offer a limited number of tests for free (priority given to stewards). There will be more information in the near future about this program.
> 
> In the future, there may be the possibility of offering steward testing regularly for discounted prices. But, this is very tentative right now.


Oz,
any kind of timeframe as to when this will go into effect?


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

man, that sucks, so if one of my frogs had worms, then I would have to tear down the tank... Ok, a little scared now. :0


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

It has been something we have been trying to get rolling since NAAC. The main decision was whether we set up a collaboration and run our own samples or use an established lab. We have chosen to use an established lab, and right now we just need to iron out the details of the testing with the lab.

Very rough timeframe for the initial round of testing would be hopefully some time before the holidays. But I can't promise that yet. I hope to have more specifics in the next few weeks.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

So is there a place that I can order like Panacour, and the other medicines listed in the "frogy first aid kit"?

When I look them up they come up as Dog and cat medicine...


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Mac,

It's the same thing. My local vet gave me a packet of panacur after they ran a fecal test for me. They didn't charge me, but I'm not sure all vets would do that.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I already checked around here, none of the vets have any knowledge of darts. And they charge 60 for the upfront cost. which is why I will go with Dr. Frye, but i would like to have these on hand if I need them. 

but I cant seem to find them...


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Dr Frye can mail the panacur to you as well.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Mac said:


> I already checked around here, none of the vets have any knowledge of darts. And they charge 60 for the upfront cost. which is why I will go with Dr. Frye, but i would like to have these on hand if I need them.
> 
> but I cant seem to find them...


mac dr.frye will send you as much of the panacur as you want( i reccomend at least two tablespoons+, baytril, ssd, and the metronidazole and syringe with bottle. keep metronidazole in the dark like a medicine cabinet per say. kristy


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