# 10g Tank for Leucs or Tincs?



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I am a Nepenthes grower, I have a greenhouse with over 20 different species and hybrids of Nepenthes and rapidly growing. I also found a great interest in growing sphagnum moss. I have ten cultures right now, most are them are pretty large. I like sphagnum moss just as much as Nepenthes because of how kawaii it is. 

In the winter of 2011, I wanted some darts, but I didn't get them. Then I was told to get a 10g glass and I ruined a 8g special made acrylic tank with Great Stuff, never doing that crap again lol! I put some native frogs in there and they just sat in the same place all day, stressed. 

So I had this bright idea, why don't I take a 10g glass tank that I have, fill it with Nepenthes growing medium, put a few pieces of driftwood in, grow out a ton of sphagnum in the tank from December to June (should fill out the entire tank and give me even more to start other cultures) and then add a few tropical plants in, throw a glass hood on it, stick a light that I already have over it and turn it into a vivarium for darts? 

My plan is to go to a vivarium store and buy one or two fruit fly cultures, order some springtails from Black Jungle with an order of a few Nepenthes and then acquire maybe two or three darts.

Would leucs be able to live in a 10g? I know tincs can. Any other things I would have to do in prep? Is my plan okay?


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

I've got 4 @ 9 months old in a 10g


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Leucs or tincs? Are they both okay in a 10g?  (Not together I mean, but would each species work in the 10g?)


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

A pair of either one should be alright in a 10 gallon but bigger is better. As far as setting up a tank there is much better information found in the beginner section than I would be able to type out for you. Good luck and take your time! This is a very fun and rewarding hobby!


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

The only thing I would put in a 10gal is thumbs. Tincs can get rather large. Too large for a 10gal, IMO. A 10gal is probably just a bit to small for leucs too. I have my breeding pair in a 18x24x18.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

I have a pair of Leucs in a 44 pentagon and if the longest dimension was unobstructed they could easily clear it in 3-4 of their best leaps. I wouldn't feel right about having any more than 4-5 in there. Leucs typically being a good group frog were tincs typically do best in pairs.


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## kthehun89 (Jul 23, 2009)

I wouldn't put tincs in a 10, 20 minimum and 20L even better. Leucs are ok in a 10, 1 pair at most though.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah, 10 gallons is pushing it for 4-5 maybe for grow out but like the other members have pointed out they do really well in pairs.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I can't afford more than two so... 

I'll get two leucs. This will probably be June or July of next year. I have to get the tank grown out first.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

IMO you should go with a 15 gallon.

D


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Seems as though there is a big difference between some people's tank size opinion and others...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Percularis said:


> Seems as though there is a big difference between some people's tank size opinion and others...


 
Yes, there is a lot of variation in opinion. A fair bit of that opinion is based on fact and some of it is based on what provides someone with the best chance of being successful with the frogs. As an example, there is a long history of people breeding tinctorius in ten gallon tanks. So it can and still is being done by a lot of people. Now, this means you have to take some of the frogs' needs into account... for example putting a background in a ten is going to remove floor space from the tinctorius, and while it will supply some verticle space, people often heavily plant an new tank, which can actually further reduce the available space for the frogs. This means that either your going to spend a lot of time trimming up the plants (stressing the frogs), or your going to have a tank that is hard for the frogs to do as many of thier normal behaviors as possible, which is why there is often a recommendation to go with a larger tank. 

Pick the frog you want to keep and then choose the tank and go from there.. for example, a 15 gallon aquarium is about 4 inches longer than a ten but gives you a little more room, while a 20 gallon long is about (if I remember correctly) 10 inches longer and gives you a lot more horizontal space. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> Yes, there is a lot of variation in opinion. A fair bit of that opinion is based on fact and some of it is based on what provides someone with the best chance of being successful with the frogs. As an example, there is a long history of people breeding tinctorius in ten gallon tanks. So it can and still is being done by a lot of people. Now, this means you have to take some of the frogs' needs into account... for example putting a background in a ten is going to remove floor space from the tinctorius, and while it will supply some verticle space, people often heavily plant an new tank, which can actually further reduce the available space for the frogs. This means that either your going to spend a lot of time trimming up the plants (stressing the frogs), or your going to have a tank that is hard for the frogs to do as many of thier normal behaviors as possible, which is why there is often a recommendation to go with a larger tank.
> 
> Pick the frog you want to keep and then choose the tank and go from there.. for example, a 15 gallon aquarium is about 4 inches longer than a ten but gives you a little more room, while a 20 gallon long is about (if I remember correctly) 10 inches longer and gives you a lot more horizontal space.
> 
> ...


Psh, well I wish I hadn't smashed the bottom out of my 20g. 

I'll see how much a 15g is... I won't over-plant a 10g if I go with that. I'll just throw a few small tropicals, nothing big like a brom or a tilly. 

If I cover the entire bottom of the terrarium with live sphagnum, would I need leaf litter? That would block the light from the sphag and like ruin that part...


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Leaf litter not only serves as a micro climate for microfauna like iso-pods and spring tails, but it gives your frogs more places to hide, and IT JUST LOOKS COOL! ;p


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

mimic711 said:


> Leaf litter not only serves as a micro climate for microfauna like iso-pods and spring tails, but it gives your frogs more places to hide, and IT JUST LOOKS COOL! ;p


I honestly think this will serve as medium for microfauna to live in more, and I like the looks better...










I'll add a few magnolia leaves for looks though.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Your frogs will be much bolder with lots of LL, but you could do a portion of the viv with sphagnum.

D


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Percularis said:


> I honestly think this will serve as medium for microfauna to live in more, and I like the looks better...


It will serve to as a medium for the microfauna to live but it isn't going to be as stable a place for them to live in as leaf litter over a clay based substrate (this is in part due to the types of microfauna we have available in the hobby and how the enclosures are set up). The most productive area for microfauna are where the leaf litter meets with the soil. This is because some of the nutrients that are needed for the microfauna are located here (such as calcium). 

While moss can be more attractive it isn't really something the frogs are adapted to living in or on. They do make adjustments but it isn't ideal for them. For example, check out these pictures and discussions on where they found the frogs http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/60381-peru-trip-ue.html. If you look you can see that there are some mosses in the area but they don't tend to be the solid mats like we see for sphagnum mosses. Using an all moss substrate won't hurt them as can be seen by some of the folks with a lot of experience (such as Patrick Nabors of Saurian Enterprises) using it. 

I would suggest using some leaf litter as in addition to the benefits described above, it also can give them shelter and provide some microniches for them. This can be important to encourage more natural behaviors. 

Does that help? 

Ed


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> It will serve to as a medium for the microfauna to live but it isn't going to be as stable a place for them to live in as leaf litter over a clay based substrate (this is in part due to the types of microfauna we have available in the hobby and how the enclosures are set up). The most productive area for microfauna are where the leaf litter meets with the soil. This is because some of the nutrients that are needed for the microfauna are located here (such as calcium).
> 
> While moss can be more attractive it isn't really something the frogs are adapted to living in or on. They do make adjustments but it isn't ideal for them. For example, check out these pictures and discussions on where they found the frogs http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/60381-peru-trip-ue.html. If you look you can see that there are some mosses in the area but they don't tend to be the solid mats like we see for sphagnum mosses. Using an all moss substrate won't hurt them as can be seen by some of the folks with a lot of experience (such as Patrick Nabors of Saurian Enterprises) using it.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I understand now. I'll make a lot of it leaf litter and sphagnum in different places. 

What exactly should I use for substrate? I want to keep just simple tropicals, probably not tillies or broms. I may want to add one Nepenthes ampullaria that I already have, not sure which, but they are still small. I'll use dead sphag for the most part of the substrate and probably a bag of fish gravel or those little clay balls for 2 inches of the bottom and I'll have a little dip in one of the front corners so I can change out the water when needed. I searched around and there seems to be tons of options. What substrate should I go for?


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I have used orchid bark in the past with success, but ABG mix is by far the best out there.

D


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Dendroguy said:


> I have used orchid bark in the past with success, but ABG mix is by far the best out there.
> 
> D


I looked up the recepie for it and I think I want to make it on my own. I'll mix sphagnum, tree fern fiber, coco fiber and orchid bark together. 

Thanks for the idea!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Becareful with the sphagnum since it holds so much water it can wick enough up and into the top layer to oversaturate it. 

ABG mix isn't the proper type of substrate to enhance microfauna levels since it lacks a the minerals like clay substrates do. 

If you go with ABG, you can probably order it cheaper from one of the sponsors on here. 

Ed


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> Becareful with the sphagnum since it holds so much water it can wick enough up and into the top layer to oversaturate it.
> 
> ABG mix isn't the proper type of substrate to enhance microfauna levels since it lacks a the minerals like clay substrates do.
> 
> ...


Are there any darts that like a wetter environment? I think I want to wick up a lot of water into the places with live sphag. Not sitting in water obviously, but keep it very moist. In my Nepenthes pots in my greenhouse, it is almost 100% live sphag that I pot it and the top layer barely keeps it wet enough for the sphagnum not to dry out in lower humidity. 

What are the drawbacks to it being too wet other than mold, fungus, bacteria, ect?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Overly wet substrates are at risk of going anaerobic and no longer acting to breakdown waste and ammonia. In addition, it can keep the microfauna from being able to hide down in the substrate. 

As an anecdotal basis sores on the feet of dart frogs have been linked to overly wet substrates (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/78657-terribilis-foot-rot.html for some discussion). 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> Overly wet substrates are at risk of going anaerobic and no longer acting to breakdown waste and ammonia. In addition, it can keep the microfauna from being able to hide down in the substrate.
> 
> As an anecdotal basis sores on the feet of dart frogs have been linked to overly wet substrates (see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/78657-terribilis-foot-rot.html for some discussion).
> 
> ...


Ouch... Alright, I will make sure to keep the sphagnum level lower and have it not come up to the surface of the medium. Thanks!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You need to make sure that the water level never gets high enough (through wicking or simple accumulation) for the surface to remain overly wet. 

Ed


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## dynekevin (May 24, 2011)

As for the tank, if money is the problem... go to petco and ask when the next $1 per gallon sale is. You can walk out of there with a 20g for $20 or even a 40gal breeder for $40! 

I always say, minimum of 10gal per frog. Its not set in stone but it i recommend setting a similar standard.

-Kevin


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