# Squirrels Birthday Build - The Cliff



## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Hey all, I know it's been quite some time since I really was active here - the old days with the 29G paludarium. Since then, I've made a few exoterra nano builds (maybe I'll post a few pics up later), but they have not been super satisfying like the large tank was. I've been really busy with life and a lot goals and stuff, but I have also needed to take a break from all of that, so the terrarium bug has crept back in a little bit...

Recently a guy I work with asked me to build him a nano tank, and as we were planning that out, I got excited about tanks again (damn), and decided to build another nano for myself as well. BUT, as I was perusing Petco for some supplies on my birthday, October 13th, I happened upon a nice 13x13x19 square vert tank + stand. Things were scratched up a bit, but looked usable, so I negotiated a discount and unexpectedly brought home a birthday gift for myself. So begins the Birthday Build.

I've always wanted to do a vertical tank, and I've had an idea for a few years to do a "cliff face" where the back and sides are rock, with some overhangs and crevices. I would really like to use real rock for this build; I'm just not super interested in an artificial background, for various reasons.

I am thinking GS foam with pieces of rock embedded in it...

I HAVE SOME CONCERNS, HOWEVER

1. Biggest concern is making the side and back walls have a good amount of stone, but have it be sturdy and not peel away from the glass and collapse. I am thinking of building some kind of structure with pillars / shelves etc to support the main stones, and put foam all over that and around everything to hide it and embed it. But the structure inside would support the weight and make it more rigid

2. Concern two is, how the stone ph would affect plant growth - I realize that this is highly dependent on what type of stone, and what type of plants. I found some awesome stone at a pet shop recently and could not resist buying a bunch...the only problem is I believe it might be pretty alkaline in ph. My primary interest for this tank is ferns, and maybe a few other plants (orchids, gesneriads, begonias, etc). I wonder if it would be enough to plant some of these plants in sphag and possibly in "separated areas" or pots in between the stones, to reduce the exposure to the base ph.

I'd appreciate any suggestions / input on the issues noted above, and/or any experience anyone has had with using stone in a build.

Thanks!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I just bought more rocks of the same type so I have more options to pick from as I build up the cliff elements...

Thanks again for any advice / ideas anyone can offer


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

Honestly, after having built a complex rock wall background myself, it's all pretty much wasted effort. In just a little while it'll be gone, hidden underneath the plants.

Also it's much harder to keep a rock wall wet / moist -this is actually way far up the list

Overhangs create much greater shadowing problems than I accounted for (unless you incorporate front lighting as well).

Make sure your rock pile is stable and NOT top heavy and/ or attached the back n sides with something other than GreatStuff. 

A simple stable uphill slope is better, but also keep in mind that water wants to fall straight down through your rock pile rather than over it

Use black expanding foam rather than yellow.

Make sure your rock pile isn't resting directly on the glass bottom. 

Foam "rocks" are waaaay easier and lighter to work with the real thing.

Test your rocks by soaking one in distilled water and checking the ph after a week or several. Chances are it'll be a none issue anyway but / and the natural biologic activities tend to erode alkalinity levels. Vinegar test too, if not first.

Leave as many and as reasonably big holes and crevices to stuff full of spagnum as possible -keeping the rock pile wet is a big issue.

These are a few things that come to mind off hand.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

Any clue what type of rocks those are? are they super light? look like feather rock to me.. but I may be wrong on that name as well lol


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

chin_monster said:


> Honestly, after having built a complex rock wall background myself, it's all pretty much wasted effort. In just a little while it'll be gone, hidden underneath the plants.
> 
> Also it's much harder to keep a rock wall wet / moist -this is actually way far up the list
> 
> ...


Wow, this is super helpful, thank you! Tons of great ideas and things I wouldn't have thought of.

The rock was called "Gui Ying" stone, though there are apparently a bunch of different rocks that are similar and go by various names .. Seiryang stone, gray yin stone etc. These do raise PH based on what I've read.

I think it's a great idea to soak them in some water and see what happens. I just filled a plastic tub with distilled water and threw some of the rocks in (to be fair I rinsed them off first to remove any loose minerals and clean the surface). I will check the PH of everything in a couple days.

I will let you guys know what I find out soon. Meanwhile I'll keep brainstorming possible set up methods ... I am going to pick up some black pond foam, I like that idea way better than the yellow foam..in fact I will probably always use the black for all builds from now on, assuming it works well.

Thanks again!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I recently got some Spyra fabric from Folius, since I've always been curious about these hydrophilic horticulture fabrics (like hygrolon). I'm thinking I might glue some spyra on the walls around some of the rocks and maybe lay some on the top of some rock ledges to hold extra moisture for moss and ferns. Just thinking out loud here.


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

Black foam looks great but there is not nearly as much in the can as with GS. It also has the nasty habit of detaching itself from what you put it on. And forget about saving any leftovers for later. If you dont use the whole it will be pretty useless by the following day. 

Looks a lot better though...


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Matt, I'd use feather rock for this build. I believe it's a form of pumice, so it's like and fairly inert. We used it in conjunction with a drip wall, and the results are really great in just a few months. I would recommend either rigging a drip wall or setting up misting on it because it does seem to dry out fairly quickly due to the large pores.


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

flyingSquirrel said:


> I recently got some Spyra fabric from Folius, since I've always been curious about these hydrophilic horticulture fabrics (like hygrolon). I'm thinking I might glue some spyra on the walls around some of the rocks and maybe lay some on the top of some rock ledges to hold extra moisture for moss and ferns. Just thinking out loud here.


A little note about Spyra, Hygrolon and such fabrics -if they are used in a situation that they are less then fully saturated they'll actually dry out the sphagnum that's tied to it. 

They are extraordinarily effective at wicking away and dispersing dampness at anything less fully saturated levels in the fabric.

Fabric is a specialized tool for situations where there's going to be constant replenishment of water and it can give up the excess to the sphagnum cover layer and plants. Take away the constant excess water and it'll actually dry out things.

The perfect application of fabric would be to expand the livable zone around a splash zone on rock build such as yours (assuming you used a water feature or drip wall).

The raw fabrics are UGLY too.

Epiweb / Ecoweb actually (counter intuitively) work better because they capture water droplets but don't disperse it.


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

cam1941 said:


> Black foam looks great but there is not nearly as much in the can as with GS. It also has the nasty habit of detaching itself from what you put it on. And forget about saving any leftovers for later. If you dont use the whole it will be pretty useless by the following day.
> 
> Looks a lot better though...


These things are absolutely true too. I think yellow foam is worse about coming loose though.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

chin_monster said:


> These things are absolutely true too. I think yellow foam is worse about coming loose though.


Actually all the reports I've seen have been mostly with black. Regardless it's an easy preemptive fix for both if you are using it on a viv wall. Secure a piece of wood with silicone before spraying.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

cam1941 said:


> Black foam looks great but there is not nearly as much in the can as with GS. It also has the nasty habit of detaching itself from what you put it on. And forget about saving any leftovers for later. If you dont use the whole it will be pretty useless by the following day.
> 
> Looks a lot better though...


Thanks for the tips!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Spaff said:


> Matt, I'd use feather rock for this build. I believe it's a form of pumice, so it's like and fairly inert. We used it in conjunction with a drip wall, and the results are really great in just a few months. I would recommend either rigging a drip wall or setting up misting on it because it does seem to dry out fairly quickly due to the large pores.


Zach, thanks for the advice. Beautiful tank that you showed, I really like it!

I am familiar with feather stone because my dad has a small boulder of it in his backyard that we are growing moss and small plants on (we keep it in a large dish of water which seems to keep things moist). I like it, and I appreciate your suggestion, but the look of that rock isn't quite what I'm going for in this build.

On your other points, I would agree that a drip wall or mist setup would be good (probably for any rock wall design). When I first envisioned this build, I was absolutely thinking of a drip wall. Then I decided I didn't want to mess with a pump, filtration, tubing, etc. (more on that in a minute)

The other day I was researching mist setups (mist king) since I've never used one and had no idea how they work. Surprisingly, it looks relatively simple to set up. Though I am paranoid of any kind of external water travel since I live in an apartment and would hate to have a leak on my hands. My other reservation with using a misting kit to keep a rock wall nice and mossy, is it seems I would need to drill a hole in the side of the tank to drain overflow, since I'd probably need to have it misting quite often.

Drip wall vs mist kit vs daily hand misting is a tough decision for me right now, though I kind of am leaning back toward my initial idea of a drip wall. I've always wanted to do one and this would be the perfect build to try it. I don't want to get too complicated with the pump / plumbing / filter, etc. How did you set up your drip wall plumbing? Do you have a filter?

I wonder if I can get away without a filter by just having the water flow through a false bottom with window screen, topped with gravel and sand. I would probably make a hollow, hidden column in the back corner for the pump to drop into, just like I did in my paludarium.

I'm open to advice, ideas, etc. Thanks!


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

chin_monster said:


> A little note about Spyra, Hygrolon and such fabrics -if they are used in a situation that they are less then fully saturated they'll actually dry out the sphagnum that's tied to it.
> 
> They are extraordinarily effective at wicking away and dispersing dampness at anything less fully saturated levels in the fabric.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this great info. I am curious about Spyra's wicking ability (will have to test it). I wonder if it can wick vertically? If so, perhaps I could have parts of the sheet extend all the way to the bottom of the tank and keep some water in the bottom. I doubt it could wick vertically up the wall over 1 foot...should be an interesting experiment.

As noted in the other comment I just posted a minute ago, I am considering a drip wall or misting kit at this point. Thanks for the help again!


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Matt, 

I'm not sure that daily hand misting would be enough to keep the rock wet unless you mist for quite a long time. Currently, this tank is set up where the majority of the bottom is water, so the drip wall is entirely internal. There's about 3" of water in the bottom with a small aqualifter pump tucked into the side (and hidden by a piece of plastic bottle wrapped in Hygrolon). This brings water up to the top through flex tubing connected to a rigid PVC pipe with holes punched every so often for the drip (think rain bar). The water trickles down the rock and is caught at the bottom to be re-circulated. There is no filter in the tank. The microorganisms on the rocks and the moss/plants are pretty good biological filters. 

I was talking to Ryan (theCoon), who owns and designed that tank the other day and I think the same growth/moisture on the rocks could be achieved by misting 1 or so times a day for multiple minutes. The drip is only currently on a few days a week now that it is sufficiently saturated. If I were to set up a mistking on it, I'd keep the water feature on the bottom for easy drainage or drill the tank. 



flyingSquirrel said:


> Zach, thanks for the advice. Beautiful tank that you showed, I really like it!
> 
> I am familiar with feather stone because my dad has a small boulder of it in his backyard that we are growing moss and small plants on (we keep it in a large dish of water which seems to keep things moist). I like it, and I appreciate your suggestion, but the look of that rock isn't quite what I'm going for in this build.
> 
> ...


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Customized the tank hood. Good news and bad news...see below. Also, lighting and air circulation ponderings.

Ripped out the piece of junk fluorescent lamp thing with the dinky bulb, and added my own bracket, socket/cord, and vent holes.










Detail of the bracket and socket installation










Bracket to secure cord










Vent holes for bulb, and you can see the screws used to mount the aluminum bracket and socket fixture. The holes were drilled by eye since I was being lazy and didn't measure them or use a straight edge. A little sloppy but who's gonna look. The screws were silver but I gave them a quick once over with a black marker.










Here's the customized hood with the Jungle Dawn LED bulb (13W)










The good news is, I am really pleased with how this customization came out. The bad news is, my planning was off a bit, and it turns out the bulb doesn't clear the glass lid of the tank 

The light hood is OK if I raise it up about 1", so I may find a way to do that and try to make it look good.I'm more tempted, however, to make a custom plexiglass hood to replace this one, and just swap the aluminum bracket and socket into that. Too bad my local plastics shop has gone down hill (customer service and workmanship is crap now, with new owner and employees)

One other thing, I am starting to wonder if the 13W Jungle Dawn is enough light for this size tank (13" square by 19" tall)...

Additionally, some other plans I had, for the tank air circulation setup, did not work out how I had envisioned, either. This could be to my benefit, since it made me consider possibly doing a better fan setup...I am thinking I might try to do some kind of hidden ductwork which circulates air from the top to bottom (or vice versa, not sure which is better, if it even matters). Here's the one Grimm did, maybe a bit complex for me, but we'll see.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99ZSuOvw8og

BTW I just ordered a water pump. Also, a digital timer for the LED light.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I put the rocks I bought, into a tub with distilled water for a week. I just tested the distilled water from the jug and the water in the tub with the rocks. Assuming my PH meter is accurate, the jug water is ph 6 and the rock water is ph 8. I tried some old aquarium test strips too but they are way beyond expired, yet obviously did show the the hardness has gone way up as well.

These rocks may be a bad idea, which is very upsetting because they look awesome and I doubt I'll find anything like them that isn't also alkaline.

I also researched ph and plants, and realized that higher ph also makes it difficult for plants to pick up some nutrients. This is pretty complicated.

For fun, I may put some moss and plants on a rock and just see what happens (I think I have just enough room in a nano plant holding tank)

I might also email Andy's Orchids and see if they have any suggestions for alkaline tolerant species.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

I'd be suspect of the "jug water" and the ph reading you had from it. Once it is let to degass and whatnot it likely will read higher. That said, those rocks aren't extremely alkaline and doubt you will have much of a problem. Since they won't be sitting in an aquarium that is filled with water of a ph of 5.0 or anything but misted in a vivarium. 

Other's opinions may differ, but I've used those stones in the past (assuming they were from the same place that ADA had theirs from) and even in the aquarium they posed no issues. 

You could soak them in RODI to try and get all the calcium and salts to dissolve, but they would probably still buffer a little bit. 

All in all, if worried, plant the plants in between the rocks.
-Andrew




flyingSquirrel said:


> I put the rocks I bought, into a tub with distilled water for a week. I just tested the distilled water from the jug and the water in the tub with the rocks. Assuming my PH meter is accurate, the jug water is ph 6 and the rock water is ph 8. I tried some old aquarium test strips too but they are way beyond expired, yet obviously did show the the hardness has gone way up as well.
> 
> These rocks may be a bad idea, which is very upsetting because they look awesome and I doubt I'll find anything like them that isn't also alkaline.
> 
> ...


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Keep in mind too there are ways to help buffer the PH either way in an aquatic section as well.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

Thanks guys. I wonder if soaking the rocks in vinegar would help neutralize the ph at all? I poured some on a rock and it was fizzing. I guess if the rock itself is alkaline it wouldn't do much... But I can't help but think it would help to some extent, at least to get rid of excess minerals and loose crust that would be more soluble and likely to rapidly leach and change ph. I'd imagine if I neutralize that with vinegar then the remaining hard stone would be slower to leach alkalinity. I'm not an expert obviously but just guessing.


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

so here's the deal, if you're gonna build a super fancy and time intensive background with pretty rocks, the fact that the rocks inhibit a bit of plant grow is not exactly a deal breaker at the end of the day -there's plenty enough that'll be just fine and glory of your rocks will see the light of day of a while longer


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## inka4040 (Oct 14, 2010)

Rushthezeppelin said:


> Keep in mind too there are ways to help buffer the PH either way in an aquatic section as well.


While this might keep the pH in "acceptable" ranges, it doesn't do anything to lower TDS, which is a much bigger predictor of plant success.

Also, glad to see you back in the game, Squirrel. The decline of your 29 was a crushing blow.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

chin_monster said:


> so here's the deal, if you're gonna build a super fancy and time intensive background with pretty rocks, the fact that the rocks inhibit a bit of plant grow is not exactly a deal breaker at the end of the day -there's plenty enough that'll be just fine and glory of your rocks will see the light of day of a while longer


Good point. I'm going to do it.


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

inka4040 said:


> Also, glad to see you back in the game, Squirrel. The decline of your 29 was a crushing blow.


Thanks, my friend, I appreciate your comment! It's fun to be back and good to see old friends and familiar faces.

It is depressing to think about how the 29 has declined, and I've lost a lot of orchid species over the years. Sad times. One day I hope to have the time to clean it up a bit and maybe do an update...


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## flyingSquirrel (Aug 22, 2011)

I emailed Andy's Orchids asking for suggestions / advice regarding lithophytic or alkaline tolerant miniatures. Here is what he replied with:

_Paphiopedilum barbigerum, Pleurothallis grobyi, allenii, almost all Pleuro’s, Epidendrum porpax and longirepens, Masdevallia floribunda, Stelis species all the minis, Dendrobium aberrans, Bulbophyllum alagense small form. All these should be okay on rocks and warmth
_


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## cam1941 (Jan 16, 2014)

That's awesome, Andy is really helpful... You should also check out J & L they have some things he doesn't and vice versa.

Very cool that you can use any Stelis, I'm bummed I didn't pull the trigger on any of those... The attached are 2 of my favorites...

Edit: The attachment names didn't come through. The first one is Stelis_Cypripedioides. The second is Stelis_Uniflora





flyingSquirrel said:


> I emailed Andy's Orchids asking for suggestions / advice regarding lithophytic or alkaline tolerant miniatures. Here is what he replied with:
> 
> _Paphiopedilum barbigerum, Pleurothallis grobyi, allenii, almost all Pleuro’s, Epidendrum porpax and longirepens, Masdevallia floribunda, Stelis species all the minis, Dendrobium aberrans, Bulbophyllum alagense small form. All these should be okay on rocks and warmth
> _


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

As Nike says, Just Do It!


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Glad to see you back. You do great work so I'll be following this build


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