# help with frog in bad condition



## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

so, 1 week ago I got 2 imitators.

yesterday I didn't see one of them all day, so I was kind of worrying. but I also read frogs can disappear for a while etc. the other one I see all the time, he/she(possible she based on looks) has picked a bromelia as hangout spot, and frequently climbs around the tank.

but this is about nr. 2. I never saw him climb up high, but frequently saw him on the bottom.
he was skinnier than nr. 1, but so far always looked healthy.

but just now I spotted him again, just before lights go on, haven't had my morning coffee yet. and he looks to be in a bad condition. at first I thought he was dead. laid in a weird position, and didn't react when I sprayed a bit of water over him(him is just to talk easier, no confirmation it's male, but compared to nr. 1, nr. 1 looks female and nr. 2 male).

so I went to take him out to examine him and put him aside to see if I can find out what went wrong, but then while picking him up with a stick, I saw him breathing!

so he's still alive, but barely. I've put him in a little plastic container for now, some wet toilet paper on the bottom and a few springtails. but he doesn't look like he's able to hunt.

maybe it'd be possible to handfeed him? I do have plenty of 3 ml pipettes available.

but I don't know how to proceed now. I'm googling vets around here, but I doubt any would know how to deal with frogs.

so, any tips how to proceed, and ho to find out what's wrong so the other stays fine?

things I can think of:

-underfeeding: since I got them recently, I didn't really have a set time to feed yet that they were used to, so often they weren't directly in the spot where I fed. however, the tank was seeded with springtails 1-2 months ago or so, and I saw both of them eating(or well, swallowing or hunting) regularly. 
but, this one was skinnier as the other, and he looks pretty skinny to me now too, but I find it hard to judge what's skinny for a frog.

-too high temperature: this past week after I got them we've had some hot weather, and I don't have airco(no one around here does, only supermarkets etc have airco, since you'd only need airco a few days a year around here). (I did make sure there's enough ventilation in the tank from a fan, and I kept my curtains closed during most of the day, that tuesday I also didn't turn on the lights in the tank till evening)
however, the other one is fine, and they made it through the hottest day(last week tuiesday) fine, and it's cooling down into the proper range again now, so if temp is the issue, the timing is strange. 

-something else, parasite, or he fell, etc. no indications this is the case, but can't be ruled out.


so in conclusion:
frog is barely alive, doesn't move except that I saw it breathing and opening it's mouth when I was moving it, so it's still alive. but, I don't know for how long. 
first priority is seeing if there's anything I can do to save him, 2nd is to know what happened so I can prevent it happening to the other.


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## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

had a look at him again. 
he's still in the same uncomfortable looking position, I don't think it looks promising.

looking at him again, I do think he looks pretty skinny, so a lack of food(or parasites making him skinny) seems probable. 
but he was already skinny when I got him, first day I already thought he was kind of skinny, but he was active, hunting&eating, and otherwise looked healthy so I chalked it up to possibly just difference between male/female(they are not guaranteed male and female, but the seller told me he had tried to select a likely male and female to take with him to the reptile show where I got them, but he couldn't guarantee they were male and female for sure). or just a bit of individual difference.

I searched and as expected/feared, all the vets in my city focus on cats/dogs/rodents, none of them even mentions treating reptiles. 

so I'm kind of expecting to loose this frog based on how he looks, he seems too weak/lethargic to catch any prey, so if it's indeed related to not getting enough food, it can only get worse.

I kind of would want to try if I could feed him manually as a last resort, but I have no idea how feasible that is, and how I could try such a thing without hurting him more. 

for now I try leaving him alone, I put the little container I put him in inside a bag(the insulated refidgeration bag I used to get them home), so he's in the dark, and I added a leaf from one of my broad bean plants on top of him as a cover.

but since he's too lethargic to eat the springtails I added, I think I may have to disturb him again anyway to remove those, since if he's not eating them they're just extra stress.


the other frog still in the tank still seems completely fine though, was out actively hunting like every morning and just now retreated to her/his favorite bromeliad. that one also looks closer to the fat side than skinny, but that was already the case from the beginning.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Sorry to hear about your frog's condition, wish I had answers for you but I'm new to the hobby


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Post some pictures of your tank and the frog, this can make it more helpfull for us


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## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

here's how the frog looks. this is pretty much the same position I found him in this morning, near the front of the tank, so he must've been moving around this night/morning.
but when I found him he was motionless in that uncomfortable position, and since I transferred him to that little plastic container he hasn't moved. only reason I know he isn't dead is because I saw a breathing movement, and when I was picking him up(since I thought he was dead, I wanted to put him aside for possible necropsy/tests) he opened his mouth. 

you see some springtails sitting on him, adding those to this little container was probably a mistake, but I acted kind of quickly upon seeing him like this and discovering there was still life in him. the leaf I placed on top of him, but removed for the pic.

I have now set up a larger quarantine container as well, but since he isn't moving, not sure if it makes sense to transfer him, I want to add as little stress as possible.










and the tank, I've been wanting to add leaflitter, but haven't had time to collect and treat any. but that fern in the background does have hiding places under it's leaves, and that was also where this guy was mostly hanging out the past days. I found him in the front-right part, the part that's brightly lit by sunlight in this pic(it wasn't in the sun this morning yet).










and the fern he was hanging around often:










one thing that may or may not be significant:

the still healthy frog choose a bromelia as retreat/hiding spot, and I see her(/him?) also walking over that fake branch/root, visiting other bromeliads, generally cimbing a lot, but also roaming around on the bottom.

the frog in bad condition I've only seen on the bottom. I can't rule out that he climbed around while I wasn't looking, but the highest I've ever seen him was on the first day when he was chilling and catching bugs on that sloping part of the fake branch to the right, ust under the bromeliad-roots there. 


also, here's the other, still healthy, frog:


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## hp192 (Feb 28, 2016)

Take the frog to a vet and get a fecal sample done...the sooner the better. Good luck and hope the little guy makes it.


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## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

good idea, but wouldn't I need to have shit to be able to do a fecal sample?
if he shits anything in that little container I'll have some, and I can test it, but so far not, and seeing as how he doesn't even move his legs into a more normal position, I kind of doubt he'll shit anything now. 

taking him to a vet is a good idea, but I won't be able to visit one short term. all 3 vets in my city only do standard pets, looked that up this morning. I don't have a car(or even a driver's license), so I'd have to take public transport, and my city has a horrible connection so I'd probably be looking at at least 1-1,5 hours travel one way.
not impossible, but it takes time, which I won't have till thursday or friday(I have 2 exams tomorrow, which I can't skip, for which I actuallty should be studying now, but this is kinda taking up my attention at the moment. in addition I have a paper that's due this friday, so I can make time on thursday or friday, but any time I need is coming out of the time I need to finish that paper. so this is pretty much the worst timing for this to happen).
and looking at this frog, I don't even know if it'll make it till thursday. (and for today, it's too late, it's late afternoon now so with traveltime added any vets that could treat frogs will be closed by the time I get there)

(btw, any way such a fecal test could be done at home? I do own a microscope, it's an old one I inherited from my grandfather, but it functions almost as well as a modern one, biggest difference is that it uses a mirror instead of electric light, and if you switch lenses you have to re-focus. but if I could look at it myself at home, as soon as I see any shit, I could have results way faster than if I have to go by a vet)

edit:
I looked a bit closer at the stes of my local vets, there may be some hope there after all, one of those vets has a picture on it's contact page of one of it's vets holding a snake. so I'll give them a call, hopefully they'll know how to deal with frogs.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

How hot did the room get where the frogs are housed?


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## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

just back from the vet. when I got there the frog had already passed away(he might've been dead already when I left, but didn't want to disturb him to look, in case he was still alive, because of extra stress).

he cut him open and looked for flagelates. he found no signs of flagelates, neither in the poop he pushed out before the autopsy, or in the intestines.

his conclusion: most likely stress which possibly also caused him to not eat enough, combined with already being a small and skinny frog that may have pushed him over the edge. since I've only got them a week, stress from adjusting to a new home is likely, and being skinny he likely didn't have much reserves. 

so I'm just going to keep a good eye on the other one, but so far no visible issues there, and the other one also already was fatter when I got them. but to be sure I'm going to increase feeding too(although, increase, probably going to keep it somewhat similar, since there's now 1 frog less the same amount will be effectively an increase of 100%). 

it may also have played a role I think that, during the last feeding before the one now dead disappeared, the healthy one was sitting right where I fed, so she/he had first pick, while the other stayed near the fern hunting(probably hunting springtails living in the tank).




> How hot did the room get where the frogs are housed?


not 100% sure about the room itself, I've only got a thermometer in the tank, but I guess pretty much the same as outdoor, since to deal with the temperature I keep the window open all day(with the window closed it would be hotter as outside, I've got morningsun on 1 window, and another window on the south). the highest temp we got was past tuesday, when it was around 34-36 degrees celsius according to the weather forecast.
highest I saw on the thermometer in the tank was somewhere around 32-33 degrees. but the past week, it has been just below or just above 30 degrees on a lot of days, so tuesday was the maximum, but not the only day it was too hot, luckily it seems like the heatwave has passed now(still around 25 during the days, but no 30 anymore).

so pretty unlucky this kind of weather happened just as the frogs were adjusting to their new home, may have contributed to some extra stress.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

What does your ventilation look like? 

Anything in the 80's for an extended period of time is going to be dangerous and possibly could have led to this.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Temperature is waaayyyy to high! I'm quite sure this has done most of the damage. Your other frogs will also have had their share of negative impact by these temperatures. Wich is not good at all, they also could die of this in the next months... You realy have to find a way to cool things down in the future!


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## dendrobates frisia (Apr 11, 2019)

I'd have liked a way to cool things down, but that's simply impossible. unfortunatly I can't control the weather, I'd wish, it would save myself a lot of discomfort too.


the things I did to try to control it:
-keep lights in the tank off all day
-ventilator pulling air out of the tank for extra airflow
-keep curtains closed
-window(of the room) open

one of my housemates even tried putting cups of ice in front of a fan in his room, but the ice melted quicker than the freezer could re-freeze new cups. 

however, I kind of doubt a temporary peak in temp could matter that much, if they weren't also adjusting to a new home or experiencing other stresses. I can't imagine it always stays exactly below 28 degrees in peru.

it's unfortunate, it's not ideal, but there's simply no way at all I can prevent such temperatures from ever occuring, I'm not god.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ofc your are not god but lucky for mankind airconditioning was invented...

I am not trying to be rude but i find this a small excuse for the loss of an animal life and possible even more lifes. Just as important heating is in this hobby, cooling is the same and this all should be in order before even acuiring frogs... If one cannot provide his animals with the basic care they recuire, than one should ask himself why he even bought these animals to begin with... 

I realy am sorry for your loss and i am sure this is not what you wanted for this animal to happen. Also good you tried to lower the temperature. But they are differnt number of ways to keep your frogs in perfect climate. Mayebe even as simple as putting the tank in the basement for a while? 

And YES even temporary peaks matter! You can never compare insitu with captive animals. Insitu they (should) have 1000 places or ways to hide from the heat. Animals in captivity only have like 1 meter of place to find shelter in?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I'm sorry this happened. It is good that you went to the vet to try to rule out other factors.

The temperature was almost certainly the fatal factor (although stress and skinniness probably played a role). 33C is over 91F; anything over 85F (29C) is thought to be dangerous.

And like Tijl said, in the wild frogs can find cooler microclimates (the ground, or evaporating pools), whereas when your viv is 33C, the whole viv is 33C. 

Again, I'm sorry, and I hope that you're able to come up with a plan for how to make things a little more tolerable for frogs.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I agree that hyperthermia was likely the cause of death. There may have been one or two cooler spots in the tank that allowed the other frog to survive, but the one that died may not have been able to find them in time, and the remaining frog may still succumb in the near future. 
If you have no way to control your ambient or in-viv temps, most dart frogs won't be able to survive being in your care. There are plenty of snakes and lizards that would thrive in those ranges, so your herp keeping days aren't necessarily at an end, but the important lesson has been learned.


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