# Cheap Shipping! Too good to be true??



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

USPS Express. United States Postal Service. I was their last defender. When I heard people complain about the price of shipping, I would point out that they are the ONLY branch of the government that pays their own way. Every other branch gets their funds from MY taxes. That was a pretty good point in my book. I will never speak in defense of the USPS again.
I have had the big picture shoved down my throat. They are government. They operate with the effiency that big government is famous for. Worse, they simply don't care.
Two days ago, I shipped 4 Vanzolini frogs via USPS Express. Now this service comes with full tracking service. So where are my frogs?? Two days later and they are not in New York. Tracking simply says they were checked into a "General Mills" hub facility. They flat out refuse to tell me where this facility is. I don't know if my frogs are still in Colorado, or if they have made their way to Pakistan!! They are completely and utterly ambivilent. Everyone I talk to says I need to talk to someone else. I have explained that these are live frogs, shipped legally through them, Under their rules 526, 526.1, and 526.6. They absolutely do not care that they will soon die. You can't insure a live animal and therefore it does not affect them, so why bother to call a hub and find out where they are.
Please people, cheap shipping is NOT worth the price you will eventually pay! The USPS loses more shipments, temorarily and permanently, than any other shipping service. These are your frogs! Pay the extra $20 bucks and get it done right.
If I speak any further of my opinion of the USPS, this will get ugly and Kyle will have to ban me!!


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## chas79 (Oct 8, 2010)

Been down the same road before. I bought some Cobals from a memeber and the USPS lost the box didn't know where it was it took 2 days to get to me. We both had no hope that they would be alive but they were. Yeah I would never trust them again its worth the little extra on the shipping side.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Well, while there certainly is not much worse than losing a frog shpiment, I don't doubt that any number of people here can come up with the same horror story for ANY shipping company you want to mention.

I have been using USPS Express Mail Overnight shipping for years now with never a loss and never a package that did not get there overnight.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

gary1218 said:


> Well, while there certainly is not much worse than losing a frog shpiment, I don't doubt that any number of people here can come up with the same horror story for ANY shipping company you want to mention.
> 
> I have been using USPS Express Mail Overnight shipping for years now with never a loss and never a package that did not get there overnight.


I have had better luck with USPS than UPS or FedEx as well. Bottom line is that all the shippers suck, every box sent is a roll of the dice.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Gary,

No, the USPS is different and for one good reason. You bring in you express package and they issue you a tracking number. They'll tell you you can go on-line and track your package. The package doesn't arrive the next day, so you go on-line to the tracking site and find out there is NO tracking! You call the local office and ask where the package is. You give them the tracking number and, surprise (!), they don't know anymore than you do.

I ship with UPS and every person that touches my package scans the package and the tracking number is updated. You actually know in REAL TIME where the package is. Therefore, you can troubleshoot the delivery if there is any problem.

Since I am a party to the current disaster, I won't continue with the thoughts in my head or, like Doug, I'm sure I will be banned!

Take care, Richard.



gary1218 said:


> Well, while there certainly is not much worse than losing a frog shpiment, I don't doubt that any number of people here can come up with the same horror story for ANY shipping company you want to mention.
> 
> I have been using USPS Express Mail Overnight shipping for years now with never a loss and never a package that did not get there overnight.


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

I have had the worst experiences with Fed Ex and UPS. I am convinced that UPS just doesn't care what label of care you put on the outside of the package. The throw them around like it's no big deal. I have not had any bad experiences with USPS yet (fingers crossed). Sorry to the OP that you have had such a bad experience with them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I shipped well over 200 shipments of live corals through FedEx before I had my first lost package. My next lost package through Fedex was, again, about 150 or so shipments down the line.
About 3 weeks ago, I sent 19 shipments of live bugs through USPS priority mail. Out of nineteen, 3 did not make it within there promised time and one took 5 days to arrive!
That is way worse service than Fedex ever provided me. Besides the fact, that as Richard said, even with a "lost" package, Fedex could at least tell me what state is was in or what flight is was on. USPS has absolutely NO idea if this is still in Colorado, or if it has somehow made it's way to China!! And they only thing they care about is if they are somehow responsible. They just keep quoting rules and regulations.
You want to know about their Express Mail overnight GUARANTEE?? It states that that they have up to 3 DAYS!! 3 DAYS!! How does 24 equal 72?? What freaky kind of math are they using?
I can't believe that anyone is actually defending them taking 3 days as being good service.


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

Chill out man, I was just telling you my experience. We have all had different experiences. I am sorry that you have had such a bad one. I undertand your frustration and yes their express mail regulation of 3 days is weird. I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong. I was simply stating that my experience with UPS is similar to your experience has been with USPS. Hope your Vanzos are eventually found and live and well. Fingers crossed for you. 



Pumilo said:


> I shipped well over 200 shipments of live corals through FedEx before I had my first lost package. My next lost package through Fedex was, again, about 150 or so shipments down the line.
> About 3 weeks ago, I sent 19 shipments of live bugs through USPS priority mail. Out of nineteen, 3 did not make it within there promised time and one took 5 days to arrive!
> That is way worse service than Fedex ever provided me. Besides the fact, that as Richard said, even with a "lost" package, Fedex could at least tell me what state is was in or what flight is was on. USPS has absolutely NO idea if this is still in Colorado, or if it has somehow made it's way to China!! And they only thing they care about is if they are somehow responsible. They just keep quoting rules and regulations.
> You want to know about their Express Mail overnight GUARANTEE?? It states that that they have up to 3 DAYS!! 3 DAYS!! How does 24 equal 72?? What freaky kind of math are they using?
> I can't believe that anyone is actually defending them taking 3 days as being good service.


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

If it makes you feel better doug, I recently had 8 Tricolors overnight shipped to me. I checked online and it said they were delivered. Yet they were not on my porch and I had been waiting all day. Long story short, someone on the next street up got my Tricolors. Fedex was good in that they sent someone out to try and find my package. I ended up getting my frogs late that afternoon on what was a guaranteed arrival by 10am. Frogs are fine though. I think the lesson is to overpackage all frogs. Ship overnight, be prepared for 2 or more days.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I guess we're going to get to see what 4 phase 22 gel packs will do for us in a real world, worst case scenerio, shipment.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tim13 said:


> If it makes you feel better doug, I recently had 8 Tricolors overnight shipped to me. I checked online and it said they were delivered. Yet they were not on my porch and I had been waiting all day. Long story short, someone on the next street up got my Tricolors. Fedex was good in that they sent someone out to try and find my package. I ended up getting my frogs late that afternoon on what was a guaranteed arrival by 10am. Frogs are fine though. I think the lesson is to overpackage all frogs. Ship overnight, be prepared for 2 or more days.


Yeah Tim, I was fully prepared for 2 days. I've never tried for 3. All you can do is pack the best you can. According to post office in New York, they have already missed the window of arrival for today so it is now looking like at least 3 days.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Redhead87xc said:


> I have had the worst experiences with Fed Ex and UPS. I am convinced that UPS just doesn't care what label of care you put on the outside of the package. The throw them around like it's no big deal. I have not had any bad experiences with USPS yet (fingers crossed). Sorry to the OP that you have had such a bad experience with them.


Have you every thought about the employees that actually handle our boxes? Has anyone here ever been employed loading trucks for UPS? They are the lowest paid in the company and do the most tedious manual labor. I know people that have done the midnight shift and such. They do not pay any attention to what is on the box. They get put in all sorts of directions up/down etc, and they are not at all gentle. See the movie with Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura at the start of the movie and how he handles the box. That is not far from the truth in many cases to how the boxes get handled when loaded / unloaded. Its a wonder most of us do not have more horror stories.


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

evolvstll said:


> Have you every thought about the employees that actually handle our boxes? Has anyone here ever been employed loading trucks for UPS? They are the lowest paid in the company and do the most tedious manual labor. I know people that have done the midnight shift and such. They do not pay any attention to what is on the box. They get put in all sorts of directions up/down etc, and they are not at all gentle. See the movie with Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura at the start of the movie and how he handles the box. That is not far from the truth in many cases to how the boxes get handled when loaded / unloaded. Its a wonder most of us do not have more horror stories.


That's a pretty funny scene in Ace Ventura. My girlfriends brother works for UPS and does the graveyard shift. He has worked there for about 6-7 years and has told me that they don't really care about the packages. It kind of pisses me off hearing that. But yes, they are the lowest paid in the company and most of his freinds that also work for the company are low lifes who plain and simply don't care. I guess they aren't held accountable at all. Sucks to know that some frogs are going on a roller coaster ride when they arrive at these docks.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

So far all of my transactions have been local but the past few months I've been telling myself that I need to get over the fear of shipping. This post isn't helping guys, thanks.


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

What we need in this hobby is to establish some sort of underground railroad system for moving our frogs around.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

X2 with USPS. I've had bad experiences with Fed-Ex, UPS, DHL, and USPS, tho so no matter what we're screwed.  The only thing we can do is pack the hell out of the boxes & hope for the best... Or get in the car and start driving. 

In my experience, I've had the best luck with Fed-Ex. Maybe "best luck" isn't the right phrase... Maybe "least bad luck" works better.


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> USPS Express. United States Postal Service. I was their last defender.
> Worse, they simply don't care.


I feel your pain and have similar stories to tell. 
When I ship, I offer two options: FedEx or USPS Overnight. When the customer complains about the excessive charge for FedEx, I simply point out what a dead frog arriving (eventually) is worth? I refuse to offer a live arrival guarantee with USPS for the reasons already stated. At least with FedEx, if the package doesn't arrive as expected, I can tell where it last was scanned. However, that has not yet occurred [knock on wood].
I will say that my Postmaster (USPS) went above and beyond about 15 years ago when a gecko was to be held at the Post Office for my pickup. It didn't. He made a bunch of phone calls, found the package at another PO, went to pick it up and drove it to my house. THAT is good service, despite the fact that the package didn't arrive where it was supposed to.
Peace of mind has value...for some of us.
Scott


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I never ship frogs USPS--not after hearing stories like these. 

One perk of FedEx is, if your pkg arrives later than Priority Overnight (that is, Afternoon instead), you get a full refund on shipping...and it is easy to do. 

This happens pretty commonly w/FedEx so prepare to have your frogs arrive at 3 or 4 PM at the destination instead of the before noon-time you purchased.


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## itsott (Nov 25, 2010)

I have been down this road three times in the past few months.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

My experience with working (as an employee - driver and a customer) with both UPS and FEDEX is about the same. The tracking system is definitely better compared to USPS. FEDEX doesn't miss their deadlines too ofter, but it happens and when it does, it's usually because of inclement weather and the "Guarantee" is void in those situations. When I worked at UPS, the pay was lower and the volume for a loader was EXTREME. You barely have time to load them, let alone look at arrows and such. I always have my packages held at location so that I can pick them up first thing in the morning.

I'm really hoping to hear some good news about the phase 22's and your packing job saving the day!

David



earthfrog said:


> I never ship frogs USPS--not after hearing stories like these.
> 
> One perk of FedEx is, if your pkg arrives later than Priority Overnight (that is, Afternoon instead), you get a full refund on shipping...and it is easy to do.
> 
> This happens pretty commonly w/FedEx so prepare to have your frogs arrive at 3 or 4 PM at the destination instead of the before noon-time you purchased.


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## David Becher (Feb 10, 2010)

All in favor of releasing a teleportation device say I.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> I never ship frogs USPS--not after hearing stories like these.
> 
> One perk of FedEx is, if your pkg arrives later than Priority Overnight (that is, Afternoon instead), you get a full refund on shipping...and it is easy to do.
> 
> This happens pretty commonly w/FedEx so prepare to have your frogs arrive at 3 or 4 PM at the destination instead of the before noon-time you purchased.


As Dartman72 said, delays are usually due to increment weather. When delays happen with fedex 9/10 times that is the case and being weather is out of their control the arrival time means nothing.
On shipping it is on our part to do our research. Call if needed. Get your quote and figure out which hub(s) with UPS or Fedex you package will be going through. If the shipping temps at any location is extreme (ex below 40) or increment weather, do not ship. Pack them the best you can (phase 22 packs are great) and pray.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Redhead87xc said:


> Chill out man, I was just telling you my experience.


Chill out?? Really? I'm not picking any fights here. I am stating the facts within my experience. USPS sucks. Plain and simple. I thought the original post makes it pretty clear that I'm not going to "chill out". These are the first froglets that my 12 year old son has produced. If you can guarantee him that they are not going to die, I will chill out. If you want to replace Richard's frogs for him, I will chill out. If you have a wad of cash just sitting around that you'd like to send me, I will chill out. Till then, I will rant and rave against the sub-par shipping standards and the "I don't care" attitude that USPS "customer service" has given me so far.
Don't get pissed at me for this Redhead87, it's not against you. It's about bad shipping. I started this rant against the Post Office and to anyone who cares to defend them, I'll throw up the facts yet again.



PantMan said:


> So far all of my transactions have been local but the past few months I've been telling myself that I need to get over the fear of shipping. This post isn't helping guys, thanks.


Join the club, PantMan! This is why if you are on a waiting list for frogs, you will get bumped EVERY TIME for someone who will come pick them up!



SMenigoz said:


> I feel your pain and have similar stories to tell.
> When I ship, I offer two options: FedEx or USPS Overnight. When the customer complains about the excessive charge for FedEx, I simply point out what a dead frog arriving (eventually) is worth? I refuse to offer a live arrival guarantee with USPS for the reasons already stated. At least with FedEx, if the package doesn't arrive as expected, I can tell where it last was scanned. However, that has not yet occurred [knock on wood].
> I will say that my Postmaster (USPS) went above and beyond about 15 years ago when a gecko was to be held at the Post Office for my pickup. It didn't. He made a bunch of phone calls, found the package at another PO, went to pick it up and drove it to my house. THAT is good service, despite the fact that the package didn't arrive where it was supposed to.
> Peace of mind has value...for some of us.
> Scott


I LOVE the first part of your post Scott. As far as the second part, the Postmaster at my post office refuses to come out and speak to me. (I wasn't being a jerk either!)
I've actually decided this morning that your idea is exactly what I need to do. You want cheap shipping, the risk is all yours. We go FedEx, and the risk is mine.
As a clarification, Richard (Woodsman) did *NOT* request cheap shipping. I made an assumption. Communication with your purchaser is CRUCIAL friends! This could have been avoided. I assumed Richard would want to save a buck and Richard assumed I was set in my choice of shipping companies. Fact is, with FedEx recently upping their rates, I was looking into alternatives.


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

Don't know if anyone realizes USPS uses fedex for their express packages.And yes they do indeed lose things !My .02


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Sean Stewart's mom is very versed on what airport hubs packages are routed through. She looks for specific temps before shipping. I'm about to do some more testing on phase 22 panels like Gary has. I would think that the one piece Styrofoam coolers lined with two phase 22 panels with a tight lid in a cardboard box with all its seams taped are much better than a box lined with 6 separately cut panels of Styrofoam in terms of insulation...much tougher too. Also, don't leave too much empty space in the deli cup for the frog to flop around when the box is being thrown all over the place. I also like the frogs individually packed into deli cups, which are on the smaller side for this reason.

David



evolvstll said:


> As Dartman72 said, delays are usually due to increment weather. When delays happen with fedex 9/10 times that is the case and being weather is out of their control the arrival time means nothing.
> On shipping it is on our part to do our research. Call if needed. Get your quote and figure out which hub(s) with UPS or Fedex you package will be going through. If the shipping temps at any location is extreme (ex below 40) or increment weather, do not ship. Pack them the best you can (phase 22 packs are great) and pray.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

evolvstll said:


> As Dartman72 said, delays are usually due to increment weather. When delays happen with fedex 9/10 times that is the case and being weather is out of their control the arrival time means nothing.
> On shipping it is on our part to do our research. Call if needed. Get your quote and figure out which hub(s) with UPS or Fedex you package will be going through. If the shipping temps at any location is extreme (ex below 40) or increment weather, do not ship. Pack them the best you can (phase 22 packs are great) and pray.


I did research the weather. That's not the problem. The trucks are running and the planes are flying. The box is just not on them. First off, I had until 4:30 pm to have the package there. I had it there by 4 pm. My post office apparently never bothered to scan a time. According to a supervisor, either I am lying (I'm not), or it sat around at the drop off location for about 6 hours. When it finally hit this mysterious "The Distribution Center" it was already too late to go out that night. They flat out refuse to give me any information about where this super secret "The Distribution Center" may be located. I don't know why they admitted that the planes are flying and it just hasn't been on them. The weird thing is that the same supervisor that told me it arrived at the center too late to go out in time, later told me that the fact that it was scanned at the distribution center, means that it did go out, in a plane, just before midnight. He also said that it did not scan in at JFK so it definitely has not arrived there yet. He did not have an answer to my reply..."So it has been on an airplane flying between Colorado and New York for over 36 hours now?". He just said he couldn't spend anymore time on this and hopes he was helpful. Love that customer service!
It does have 4 phase 22 gel packs so I am still hopeful. It's about time for a little chunk of good luck to roll my way!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have a good relationship with our UPS and Fed-ex delivery guys. Both were curious about the odd things I get delivered.. the UPS guy has delivered stuff for us first thing when it was labeled live... 

Our local post office is pretty good as they get a lot of live animals stuff delivered through them (chicks, bees etc) as we are pretty rural but it has to get to them... When we got our chickens the post office had an employee bring them down to our local branch office on a sunday and let me meet them to get the chick as opposed to letting them sit one more day. Years ago I had the post office lose some frogs sent to me (the shipper sent them the wrong week and the post office didn't leave a delivery notice so they sat in the post office for 5 days before I could figure where they were). I have had Fed-Ex lose stuff but have been lucky with UPS so far.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I'm not sure what you mean here as USPS doesn't use the same tracking system, packages are not sorted in a FEDEX location and a FEDEX driver doesn't deliver them. All US mail used to be flown on FEDEX planes...I'm pretty sure it's the same way now.



Allyn Loring said:


> Don't know if anyone realizes USPS uses fedex for their express packages.And yes they do indeed lose things !My .02


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

This is a very important part of the equation as it never hurts to get to know them on a personal level! You will almost always have the same driver delivering to you on a regular basis, but I still like to have my stuff held at location.



Ed said:


> I have a good relationship with our UPS and Fed-ex delivery guys. Both were curious about the odd things I get delivered.. the UPS guy has delivered stuff for us first thing when it was labeled live...
> 
> Our local post office is pretty good as they get a lot of live animals stuff delivered through them (chicks, bees etc) as we are pretty rural but it has to get to them... When we got our chickens the post office had an employee bring them down to our local branch office on a sunday and let me meet them to get the chick as opposed to letting them sit one more day. Years ago I had the post office lose some frogs sent to me (the shipper sent them the wrong week and the post office didn't leave a delivery notice so they sat in the post office for 5 days before I could figure where they were). I have had Fed-Ex lose stuff but have been lucky with UPS so far.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

David Becher said:


> All in favor of releasing a teleportation device say I.


*I* (message too short)


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I saw one of your posts about shipping and I have faith! I really think the way to go is 2 - 4 Phase 22 Panels. It should be standard to charge a $10 - $15 refundable deposit for the panels and Styrofoam coolers. 



Pumilo said:


> It does have 4 phase 22 gel packs so I am still hopeful. It's about time for a little chunk of good luck to roll my way!


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## Vagabond324 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey Doug, I hope your frogs come out of this OK. I had some frogs shipped to me this week On Monday for Tuesday 12Pm delivery Via USPS, well as you say their tracking service stinks and seems to be on a 6 hour delay if they do it at all. When my frogs did not show up by 12:30pm, (they were scanned in at 1020am) I called the post office to see if they were there and I was told they were and that they were being sent out as soon as the driver returned. Well 28 minutes later I get a knock on my door and it's the mailman with my frogs, I was so happy to see that they arrived safely until I noticed that he was shacking the box like he was mixing up his orange juice or a martini before pouring it. I asked him to please stop doing that before he killed my frogs, gee's despite all the warning labels on the box they still get no respect from the carriers or anyone else who comes in contact with your packages. The good thing is that the frogs were packed well in small deli cups and in a two piece styro box which was well cushioned inside around those cups and had a good strong outer cardboard box to protect the styro box. I don't care who the shippers are, once these packages get to the warehouses they go on a conveyor belt and are shot all over the place and then hoop shotted into the waiting trolley by the guys at the end who could care less as to whats in the box, all that counts is speed..... Anyway, again, I will Frogboys frogs the very best.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks guys!


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

i hate to argue semantics, but usps is not a branch of the government, but an entity of it's own, contracted by the us government...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

epiphytes etc. said:


> i hate to argue semantics, but usps is not a branch of the government, but an entity of it's own, contracted by the us government...


Meh. And this makes them suck less, how?


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Meh. And this makes them suck less, how?


It doesn't!!!! they just suck period!! I stick with Fedex. I pay much more ( but with far less problems.) I have been shipping and recieving frogs since 2007. Fed-ex although some problems. NEVER THE AMOUNT I get with either UPS, which never got here on time but still delivered. USPS lost more packages ( Ironically all the live ones???)

now. If I order from someone. I ALWAYS ASK THEM TO SHIP FED-EX and I JUST PAY THE EXTRA FOR IT!!! I GET MY FROGS ALIVE. VENDOR IS HAPPY THAT IM HAPPY!! END OF STORY!!!


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Meh. And this makes them suck less, how?


I have had quite few shipments lost with high end corals never to be found again, but have had many more make it just fine as well....But all of them suffer from the human element.

Hope the frogs show up safe and sound Doug...Keep us updated.

Spliting hairs doen't make them suck less.....

"The USPS is often mistaken for a government-owned corporation (e.g., Amtrak) because it operates much like a business, but as noted above, it is legally defined as an "independent establishment of the executive branch of the Government of the United States", (39 U.S.C. § 201) as it is controlled by Presidential appointees and the Postmaster General. As a quasi-governmental agency"

Close enough for me.....lol


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This is just another great reason for everyone to come out to Frog Day! It is this Saturday! Come on, you can work for the rest of your lives, Frog Day is once in a lifetime event!

(A little cheerleading since FD is two minutes from my house this year! I would love to see as many people as can make it to Staten Island).

Take care, Richard.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

dmartin72 said:


> I saw one of your posts about shipping and I have faith! I really think the way to go is 2 - 4 Phase 22 Panels. It should be standard to charge a $10 - $15 refundable deposit for the panels and Styrofoam coolers.


I'm going to disagree just a little bit here. I think they way to go is a stryofoam box with 2 of the Saf-T-Pak 1000gm gel packs. One on the bottom and one on the top. Since 2 of those cost $25 I do request that they get returned to me which costs $10. 4 of those smaller 6oz Cryopacks PCM gel packs also cost $10 and there is NO COMPARISON between them and the Saf-T-Pak ones I use. I think the person receiving the shipment is better off spending their $10 on returning my gel packs rather than 4 of the other ones that they could then keep.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

gary1218 said:


> I'm going to disagree just a little bit here. I think they way to go is a stryofoam box with 2 of the Saf-T-Pak 1000gm gel packs. One on the bottom and one on the top. Since 2 of those cost $25 I do request that they get returned to me which costs $10. 4 of those smaller 6oz Cryopacks PCM gel packs also cost $10 and there is NO COMPARISON between them and the Saf-T-Pak ones I use. I think the person receiving the shipment is better off spending their $10 on returning my gel packs rather than 4 of the other ones that they could then keep.


Just to keep people clear, Gary's Saf-T-Pak 1000gm gel packs are also a phase change material by a different company. Gary's are better, (in my opinion) primarily due to their bigger size. Chemically, the are designed to do the same job.


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

Woodsman said:


> This is just another great reason for everyone to come out to Frog Day! It is this Saturday! Come on, you can work for the rest of your lives, Frog Day is once in a lifetime event!
> 
> (A little cheerleading since FD is two minutes from my house this year! I would love to see as many people as can make it to Staten Island).
> 
> Take care, Richard.


So if I make that drive Richard can I stay at your house? We can stay up late and talk politics....


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

unlike! ... poor little fellas. got my fingers crossed for them as well. 

as for the discussion on shipping ... i've had to make quite a few thermal enclosures at work for different tests (i'm an engineer in aerospace, so we do a lot of weird environmental testing). you probably won't see much difference in temp leaks through using cut sheets of styrofoam as opposed to a solid foam box as long as you make sure the edges don't have significant gaps and are nicely sealed. the best thing you can do to guarantee this is to try to compress the foam a little bit so it squishes up against the other pieces along the edges. then tape the edges if you feel so inclined.

thicker walls means less losses, so pad em in, and get a white box as opposed to a brown one (or wrap your brown one in white paper) so it reflects instead of absorbing heat if anyone leaves it in the sun. 

i've got frogs coming via USPS next week... i think i'll put in a call and offer to pay the extra dough for fedex. yikes.

good luck doug/max and richard! i'm hoping for you guys,
brett


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I had a $500 crystal and silver clock from Tiffany's (wedding present), several outbound shipments of various things, and other misc packages go missing. Hell the orchid pack I sent you had a tracking number that I bought, when I entered the number at their website it said it was invalid... You know what they told me when I complained about what I believe was theft? "Oh, well go talk to your postal carrier," which translates to go f*ck yourself pal. I guess the look on my face said I'm going to beat you to death because the smarmy bastard behind the counter pointed me to a sign stating threatening a federal employee is a federal crime.


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## erlese (Jun 11, 2008)

fleshfrombone said:


> I had a $500 crystal and silver clock from Tiffany's (wedding present), several outbound shipments of various things, and other misc packages go missing. He'll the orchid pack I sent you had a tracking number that I bought, when I entered the number at their website it said it was invalid... You know what they told me when I complained about what I believe was theft? "Oh, well go talk to your postal carrier," which translates to go f*ck yourself pal. I guess the look on my face said I'm going to beat you to death because the smarmy bastard behind the counter pointed me to a sign stating threatening a federal employee is a federal crime.


That's messed up!!


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

epiphytes etc. said:


> i hate to argue semantics, but usps is not a branch of the government, but an entity of it's own, contracted by the us government...


Actually that's not true. The USPS is an independent government agency. Everyone that works at USPS is a US government employee. Thats why they have to take the civil service test for employment. Its also why Fleshfrombone couldn't beat the snot out of the jerk that give him lip 

".. You know what they told me when I complained about what I believe was theft? "Oh, well go talk to your postal carrier," which translates to go f*ck yourself pal. I guess the look on my face said I'm going to beat you to death because the smarmy bastard behind the counter pointed me to a sign stating threatening a federal employee is a federal crime."

The sad thing is the USPS was supposed to be self sustaining but it is a losing venture. A couple years ago the whole thing almost collapsed but our all knowing politicians bailed them out by supplying more of our tax dollars to support a failed system. Kinda going off on a tangent here but if junk mail were outlawed they would have to shut USPS down. Its pretty much the only thing that comes through mail these days. I would say 60% (probably more) of my recycled paper is from junk mail. The whole system is so wasteful. I say its time to close shop. We would save a few tax dollars and a few tree's. Where i come from they call that a win - win situation.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Join the club, PantMan! This is why if you are on a waiting list for frogs, you will get bumped EVERY TIME for someone who will come pick them up!


Fortunately for me there are a ton of responsible well respected breeder in the north east.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm thinking about you, brave quartet of Vanzoliniis out there in the night. I hope to see you bright and shining in the morn.

Richard.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Neither snow nor rain nor heat nor gloom of night stays these couriers from the swift completion of their appointed rounds.

Of course I'm speaking of our brave Vanzolini seeing as how the post office does not bother.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Doug, you are ignoring the most obvious scenario.. the frogs have obviously made a break for freedom during transit to join the infamous Peruvian Bandito Frogs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Doug, you are ignoring the most obvious scenario.. the frogs have obviously made a break for freedom during transit to join the infamous Peruvian Bandito Frogs.


Ahh, then they have apparently done a wonderful job of erasing their tracks!


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

hem hem ... maybe they really did want to move to California like I suggested?? Perhaps they didn't 'tinc' the inclement weather in NY sounded appetizing...

My girlfriend and I refer to my Alanis Tincs as the "bad guys" because they're dressed in black and they look like crooks. Let's hope the Surinamese and Peruvian banditos don't join forces! 

-brett


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I had a couple of Tincs coming my way that vanished in the system and then 4 days after shipping they were at my door, no worse for wear. If packed properly 2 days is a no brainer (heat scares me though). I always use USPS because so many times it is less than half the cost and 75% of the 2 day routes get their in 1 day. I have a couple over nighters take 2 days...and I always got a 100% refund when that happened. It is hard to sit back and relax when you have a shipment delayed by a day or worse just disappear in the system but if packed properly they should arrive in good condition.
I have used Fed=Ex a few times,over $100 for a shipment but the frogs were on time and in great shape, my last UPS shipment came to me and was DOA but that frog was packed poorly. 
Packing the frogs the right way is 100 times more important than who you ship them by!!!


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Well today is a big day. Keep us posted Richard we all have our fingers crossed.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Everyone needs to be careful right now with shipping, the Mississippi floods are screwing up everything, A lot of fish company's have stopped shipping till its over.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry guys, no good news. No news at all. I have spent many hours on the phone and in person at the post office trying to get somebody to lift a pinky to try to locate these. They say that there is absolutely nothing that they can or will bother to do. They tell me that the ONLY way they handle this is to wait and see if somehow it gets scanned through somewhere.
I have asked repeatedly for contact information for the last known place it was scanned, and they flat out refuse to provide that information. I have asked if they have sent someone in the back to physically check for the box and they flat out refuse to answer. I have asked that if the box was scanned, and in fact got on a plane, where was that plane headed? They say that there is no way of knowing that! Seriously!! They don't know what direction the plane was flying! I pointed out that I believe, by law, every plane MUST have a flight plan and that somewhere, if they would lift the phone up, somebody has to know where that plane was headed. They seriously said "No, there is no way to know that. *It was probably headed in the direction of New York.*". I am not kidding! I am not exaggerating!! The plane is probably headed in the direction of New York!!
This is the kind of incompetence and quality customer service that you can expect from the United States Post Office! They absolutely do not care. They absolutely will not lift a finger to try to make a phone call or to look in the back room. 
I pointed out that it HAS to be at location A, location B, or still on the plane if someone would simply stand up and look. They said that it is in transit somewhere is most likely on a plane right now. I'm losing patience at this point and not so pleasant on the phone. I asked if they were seriously suggesting that this mystery plane has been in the air for well over 50 hours now. They replied that there is no way of knowing.
I submit that there IS a way of knowing, but that they refuse to do it!! Pick up the phone and find out where that plane went. There is a flight number on file! There is a location on file! You just have to *LOOK!*


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dang those frog banditos.. they have even infiltrated the post office... 

Sorry to hear you are having such problems with customer service Doug, hopefully you don't my attempt to interject a little levity.. 

Ed


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Dude calm down, If it was scanned at a hub, how could it still be in the back room? If its at a hub, theres no back room and no ones going to "look" through 1000s of packages. It will show up or it wont, getting upset with mail clerks wont help anything


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Sorry to hear this. All shipping companies can lose packages, but the real measure of their incompetence is how they recover. I've had UPS misplace animals before, but they looked for them and found them. I was even able to drive to the center late at night and pick it up once, because the trucks weren't running anymore that night.

Again, sorry. I won't be using USPS any time soon.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I shipped well over 200 shipments of live corals through FedEx before I had my first lost package. My next lost package through Fedex was, again, about 150 or so shipments down the line.
> About 3 weeks ago, I sent 19 shipments of live bugs through USPS priority mail. Out of nineteen, 3 did not make it within there promised time and one took 5 days to arrive!
> That is way worse service than Fedex ever provided me. Besides the fact, that as Richard said, even with a "lost" package, Fedex could at least tell me what state is was in or what flight is was on. USPS has absolutely NO idea if this is still in Colorado, or if it has somehow made it's way to China!! And they only thing they care about is if they are somehow responsible. They just keep quoting rules and regulations.
> You want to know about their Express Mail overnight GUARANTEE?? It states that that they have up to 3 DAYS!! 3 DAYS!! How does 24 equal 72?? What freaky kind of math are they using?
> I can't believe that anyone is actually defending them taking 3 days as being good service.


So why didn't you use Fed Ex then?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Dang those frog banditos.. they have even infiltrated the post office...
> 
> Sorry to hear you are having such problems with customer service Doug, hopefully you don't my attempt to interject a little levity..
> 
> Ed


Not a problem Ed, I could use a little levity.



bussardnr said:


> Dude calm down, If it was scanned at a hub, how could it still be in the back room? If its at a hub, theres no back room and no ones going to "look" through 1000s of packages. It will show up or it wont, getting upset with mail clerks wont help anything


Simple. It gets scanned, but not put on the plane. Or, it comes off the plane but does not get scanned. It's pretty obvious that one or the other had to have happened. As Boondoggle stated, UPS has actually looked and found packages. They physically looked and found a shipment of Micromussa corals coming to me once. I was able to drive out to the hub and pick it up. I have also had Fedex go the extra mile to actually look for, and find, a package.



Scott Richardson said:


> So why didn't you use Fed Ex then?


The answer to that has already been stated. Even the title of the thread states, "Cheap Shipping". I don't think it could be too much clearer that I was looking for cheaper shipping and that it can come back to bite you.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Not a problem Ed, I could use a little levity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hence the saying " You get what you pay for " I agree, Fed Ex does a great job, I would of stuck with them. USPS is trying to compete, but it is part of our worthless government.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

... and if you've read elsewhere, every single shipping option we have has suffered failures.

Some prefer USPS, some FedEx, some UPS.

I prefer a nice regional frog group. 

s


Scott Richardson said:


> Hence the saying " You get what you pay for " I agree, Fed Ex does a great job, I would of stuck with them. USPS is trying to compete, but it is part of our worthless government.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott said:


> I prefer a nice regional frog group.
> 
> s


Agreed. When I took a break from the hobby, 5 years ago, we had a nice regional group going on here in Colorado. My good friend, Rick White, had a lot to do with keeping the interest up on that. Rick left the hobby for a while not too long after I did and apparently nobody really kept the ball rolling. We used to get together every month or so for a BBQ, swap meet, and just to trade ideas. I'm afraid there's nothing like that going on here anymore. Rick's been dipping his toe in the pool again lately, and just got a bunch of vivs. Hopefully as he starts filling those up, he and I can try to get something going on around here again.


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## Vagabond324 (Jan 13, 2011)

bussardnr said:


> Dude calm down, If it was scanned at a hub, how could it still be in the back room? If its at a hub, theres no back room and no ones going to "look" through 1000s of packages. It will show up or it wont, getting upset with mail clerks wont help anything


Well it's scanned by a machine and routed on conveyor belts, if it fell off it could be laying under the belts some where until they do their maintenance, god knows when that is. Remember about 80% of the handling is done by machines. I hope this is not the case but I have a feeling that these things happen more often than we would want to know about.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

bussardnr said:


> Dude calm down, If it was scanned at a hub, how could it still be in the back room? If its at a hub, theres no back room and no ones going to "look" through 1000s of packages. It will show up or it wont, getting upset with mail clerks wont help anything





Vagabond324 said:


> Well it's scanned by a machine and routed on conveyor belts, if it fell off it could be laying under the belts some where until they do their maintenance, god knows when that is. Remember about 80% of the handling is done by machines. I hope this is not the case but I have a feeling that these things happen more often than we would want to know about.


Exactly! I'm just asking for a pair of eyes.


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## Vagabond324 (Jan 13, 2011)

fleshfrombone said:


> I had a $500 crystal and silver clock from Tiffany's (wedding present), several outbound shipments of various things, and other misc packages go missing. Hell the orchid pack I sent you had a tracking number that I bought, when I entered the number at their website it said it was invalid... You know what they told me when I complained about what I believe was theft? "Oh, well go talk to your postal carrier," which translates to go f*ck yourself pal. I guess the look on my face said I'm going to beat you to death because the smarmy bastard behind the counter pointed me to a sign stating threatening a federal employee is a federal crime.


Yeah, and these same people will give you a load of crap when you tell them that you pay their wages as they are Government employees, they will say, "No we are not" The post office has not paid for itself in years which means that we are paying their wages, no matter what BS they want to believe. I hate the people that work the desks, they are such lazy P.O.S., their attitude is I'm here for X amount of hours and I'm going to pace myself so as to do as little as possible.


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## Vagabond324 (Jan 13, 2011)

Doug, you might as well paint a nice big red circle on a brick wall and mark it, bang your head here and use it because that's about the most satisfaction your going to get working with the Post office, they just don't care....... It's always someone else's job but they don't know who that is.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

fleshfrombone said:


> I had a $500 crystal and silver clock from Tiffany's (wedding present), several outbound shipments of various things, and other misc packages go missing. Hell the orchid pack I sent you had a tracking number that I bought, when I entered the number at their website it said it was invalid... You know what they told me when I complained about what I believe was theft? "Oh, well go talk to your postal carrier," which translates to go f*ck yourself pal. I guess the look on my face said I'm going to beat you to death because the smarmy bastard behind the counter pointed me to a sign stating threatening a federal employee is a federal crime.


I need to get Flesh down here to question them for me!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Bullshit.

Every organization has some that carry their load, some that drag - and some that go beyond the call of duty.

The trouble is finding that person that will go beyond the call of duty.

s


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Vagabond324 said:


> Doug, you might as well paint a nice big red circle on a brick wall and mark it, bang your head here and use it because that's about the most satisfaction your going to get working with the Post office, they just don't care....... It's always someone else's job but they don't know who that is.


You ain't kiddin! Everybody jots down a phone number and says, "Talk to them", or worse, "I ran the tracking through the computer, I can't spend any more time than that."
But it feels more like the big red circle is on my forehead and they are holding the bricks!


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## Vagabond324 (Jan 13, 2011)

epiphytes etc. said:


> i hate to argue semantics, but usps is not a branch of the government, but an entity of it's own, contracted by the us government...


Really, that's sort of like employers giving people they hire 1099 forms, it's all BS. They never make money so where does the funds come from for them to continue, right out of our pockets. Just because some bureaucratic turd figured out a way to change their chain of command changes nothing but the perception of what the USPS is. CRAPPY.......


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Every organization has some that carry their load, some that drag - and some that go beyond the call of duty.
> 
> ...


It shouldn't be that hard to find someone who will go "beyond" the call of duty. It also shouldn't be considered "beyond the call of duty" to do the job they were paid to do.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'll agree with that - but I also think the volume of the USPS makes it a bit hard to do some of the things we see FedEx/UPS do.

Another thing that I'm aware of that others might not be. They DO scan packages - they just don't have real time scanning. They have to put the scanners back in the cradle before the data is uploaded.

Of course that differs quite a bit from FedEx/UPS where they scan the package WHILE they deliver it - and, quite literally - I will get an email 2 minutes later saying the package is delivered.

s



Pumilo said:


> It shouldn't be that hard to find someone who will go "beyond" the call of duty. It also shouldn't be considered "beyond the call of duty" to do the job they were paid to do.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott said:


> I'll agree with that - but I also think the volume of the USPS makes it a bit hard to do some of the things we see FedEx/UPS do.
> 
> Another thing that I'm aware of that others might not be. They DO scan packages - they just don't have real time scanning. They have to put the scanners back in the cradle before the data is uploaded.
> 
> ...


Exactly! People should just be aware of the differences and can make their own decisions. As for me, when ordering frogs, I will request FedEx or UPS. When shipping frogs, I will offer FedEx with me taking the hit if something happens. If the purchaser wishes to save some money, requestiong USPS, I will make it crystal clear that the risk will have to be on their shoulders.

Don't worry Richard! You won't get stuck holding the bag on this.

Now shipping bugs gets a little trickier. Nobody's going to spend $50 to ship an order of Isopods. But bugs are a hardier than frogs too. I'm afraid I don't see an alternative on bugs but to continue using Priority and assume that they could be in transit for 3 to 4 days. But bugs are bugs and they are easily replaceable and easy to stand behind.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

markpulawski said:


> I had a couple of Tincs coming my way that vanished in the system and then 4 days after shipping they were at my door, no worse for wear. If packed properly 2 days is a no brainer (heat scares me though). I always use USPS because so many times it is less than half the cost and 75% of the 2 day routes get their in 1 day. I have a couple over nighters take 2 days...and I always got a 100% refund when that happened. It is hard to sit back and relax when you have a shipment delayed by a day or worse just disappear in the system but if packed properly they should arrive in good condition.
> I have used Fed=Ex a few times,over $100 for a shipment but the frogs were on time and in great shape, my last UPS shipment came to me and was DOA but that frog was packed poorly.
> Packing the frogs the right way is 100 times more important than who you ship them by!!!


BAM, right on the head... I have had many, many frog shipments through all of the usual services and all gave me ulcers, even fed-ex 'hold at location'.. But if the frogs are packed properly, mostly all shipments turn out positive..


Here's to hopin' those lil vanzos make it and get welcomed to NY!!... 

Peter Keane


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## Randy (Mar 18, 2004)

Doug, I'm very sorry to hear about the shipping problems that you're having...however, this thread should truly be a warning for those attempting to save a buck or two (or 20) when shipping frogs. I've been shipping frogs (and many other species) since 1997 through several different couriers. From the time I entered the hobby up until a couple of years ago, shipping darts via USPS seemed to be a rarity because of the lack of reliability (at least in my circle of froggers). I took a short 3 year hiatus from large scale breeding while in law school, and since I've returned, I've noticed a growing number of froggers that have been lulled into using USPS for their frog shipping needs, due to the slight savings involved. This is surprising to me, especially when the shipment value is several hundred dollars or more. Even from a business perspective, it seems much more enticing to me to use a more reliable courier. "More reliable" is debatable, but it seems that USPS Express delivery is frowned upon by many other exotic animal hobbies as well. Refundability of the shipping cost is irrelevant, delivery time is paramount, especially when the difference is only $20. 
During the last few years, every time I've shipped it's been via Delta Dash. Same day delivery, $67 plus tax for up to 20 lbs, airport to airport. You've got to jump through a couple of hoops to become a shipper through Delta, but if you ship frogs more than a few times a year, it's well worth the extra effort. Not once have I, or the receiver, ever had a problem. I've shipped to New York from Kansas City and it was there before lunch for cryin out loud! Not everyone lives very close to an airport, so that can be an issue... But in short, if you ship infrequently, use a less parcel-burdoned courier service than USPS. If you ship frequently and have the means, ship via Delta. 

Good luck with the Vanzo's guys, I'll keep my fingers crossed! I know that must be a nail-biting experience...


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

As to shipping bugs, some cannot legally go USPS. Not our feeders, but think about sending a venomous animal for example tarantula via USPS. As for other carriers, they all can have issues. I know of one set if shipments lost in transit at a major us airport when the flight crashed during take-off. I don't know if there were any live shipments affected. What I know about were multiple high-end jewelry items. 
This week, we had a ballpython held up in Memphis overnight due to inclement weather. As it was fedex, the guarantee for overnite meant nothing. To top it off, fedex would only state that the pkg would arrive by noon Friday, unless the shipper paid them to upgrade it to the higher level of express. Fortunately, he arrive in good condition, even though cold today. Btw, Fedex agents have told me that they will only have real-time regular updates on express shipments. Not that any of us would ship ground, but often they only scan at departure and then when it reaches the destination hub/terminal.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Randy said:


> Doug, I'm very sorry to hear about the shipping problems that you're having...however, this thread should truly be a warning for those attempting to save a buck or two (or 20) when shipping frogs. Good luck with the Vanzo's guys, I'll keep my fingers crossed! I know that must be a nail-biting experience...


Indeed it should be Randy. That's why I started this thread. Hopefully our little guys can save some others down the line by letting their plight be known. At this point it is day 4, and a Saturday. If it were arriving in New York today it would have by now. Sunday is day 5 and Monday, if they were to show, would be day 6. I've pretty much lost all hope at this point. I've heard plenty 4 day stories of survival. Can't say as I've ever heard of a 6 day survival story.



Dragonfly said:


> As to shipping bugs, some cannot legally go USPS. Not our feeders, but think about sending a venomous animal for example tarantula via USPS.


No spiders here. We're just talking about isopods and springtails.


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

If these guys survive, im opting for two day ground fedex from now on. I've never had a ground shipment come up missing. I have had issues with overnight before.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Any news on these little guys Doug/Richard? Long journey by now.


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## dewlou (Sep 2, 2007)

We have used both and so far never a lost. You just worry until the buyer lets you know they arrived!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

btcope said:


> Any news on these little guys Doug/Richard? Long journey by now.


I'm afraid not Brett. The United States Post Office feels that they made good on it though as they've issued me a whopping $31 refund. Richard and I have given up hope and the vast majority of his investment has been returned today. Richard was kind enough to let me sell a few Isopod/woodlice orders before sending him the rest of the funds later this week.
Thank you everyone for you concerns in this matter, but it has been 6 days and they still don't know if the (deceased) frogs are in Colorado, Vermont, or New Mexico.
I bid a sad goodbye to my beautiful little travelers. You will be missed and you will never be forgotten. The worst part is that these were Max's first produced frogs. Please at least enjoy Max's photography of our little lost ones.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear Doug and Max.....Amazing to me that you can have an address on the label that says NY and it ends up in Colorado, or New Mexico, Vermont? I mean really? I'm still amazed at the incompetence that seems to be threw out the USPS. No way to really get around the human element.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Azurel said:


> Sorry to hear Doug and Max.....Amazing to me that you can have an address on the label that says NY and it ends up in Colorado, or New Mexico, Vermont? I mean really? I'm still amazed at the incompetence that seems to be threw out the USPS. No way to really get around the human element.


Personally, I think they are within about 10 or 15 miles of where I'm sitting right now. I think they fell off the conveyor belt after getting scanned but before getting on the plane. But they will not even ask anyone at the distribution center to go look. Their practice is to do nothing. They say there is nothing they can do until and unless it were to be scanned again somewhere. Therefor, they will only state that they could be anywhere.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry to hear that Doug. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

It hurts any frogger to hear things like this. Sorry for your loss.


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

I have to wonder if there are any of the shipping companies employees lurking here,and what they think of all this mess?!!!Vansos are one of my top five faves .The whole thing just stinks!!I have to also wonder if it is cheaper for them to piss off and lose a customer than do the right think to maintain a respectful relationship .!!!If it wasn't for these shipping companies there would be a whole lot less frustration !!Their element in this hobby is the only thing I don't really have a lot of personal input!


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Doug,

I had the thought today about making a small claims suit against the "distribution" center (where the problem seems to lay) and take the USPS to court. Also, there must be someone in authority who is not located at these facilities. I would think a more formal complaint would be called for.

I am pretty heart broken for your son. It's not easy to send any of our "babies" off into the world, but having such an outcome can make it almost unbearable. That makes me really sad to think about.

Thanks very much for the refund. I appreciate it very much.

Richard.



Pumilo said:


> Personally, I think they are within about 10 or 15 miles of where I'm sitting right now. I think they fell off the conveyor belt after getting scanned but before getting on the plane. But they will not even ask anyone at the distribution center to go look. Their practice is to do nothing. They say there is nothing they can do until and unless it were to be scanned again somewhere. Therefor, they will only state that they could be anywhere.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

That's weak guys, sorry to hear it.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

sorry guys, pouring out a few wingless melanogasters for my departed homies. hate to hear things like this. i was really hoping they'd show up sometime today and we'd hear how well Doug packs his frogs  ... 

condolences, 
brett


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## girlwithafrogtattoo (Mar 4, 2009)

It's heartbreaking to read this  The USPS lost 5 packages of mine in March, but plants were the only living thing that was lost.
I feel horrible for your poor son.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Doug - terrible news about the frogs. Sorry that happened to you. I have to dissent about your overall thesis, though. I've shipped many dozens of frogs via USPS, and never had a problem that was due to them. And their price is generally half (literally) of their competitors. I've been very happy with them overall.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Sorry to hear the frogs did not arrive. Unfortunately when millions of packages are being sent it is bound to happen that one falls through the cracks and ends up delayed or even worse missing. Fortunately this is one of those rare occassions.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like you're up for a good heartbreak at the hands of the USPS, then.

Maybe there are a few moments in life when contrarianism isn't a virtue. This is one of those times.

Richard.



npaull said:


> Doug - terrible news about the frogs. Sorry that happened to you. I have to dissent about your overall thesis, though. I've shipped many dozens of frogs via USPS, and never had a problem that was due to them. And their price is generally half (literally) of their competitors. I've been very happy with them overall.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Don't know if anyone realizes USPS uses fedex for their express packages.And yes they do indeed lose things !My .02


That is why I use USPS. Knock on wood, I've never had an issue with USPS. Even though they tend to tip the box when it specifically says THIS SIDE UP, nothing bad has ever happened. The biggest problem I've had with USPS is that they don't gaurantee next day for every location. It's usually when someone lives out in the boonies away from a major city. Are people making sure to check the "express commitment gaurantee" BEFORE shipping? If you're not, you better start doing it. 

And I have heard that labels on FedEx packages like FRAGILE aren't even read either.

I always pack my frogs as if they weren't going to be there next day. Phase 22 panels are my staple now and I use good sized boxes with thick insulation. I pack sphagnum moss loosely so in case the box is tipped upside down the frogs can easily clamber whichever direction is UP inside the package without getting crushed or injured.

Edit: forgot, I have shipped mantella tadpoles too and they were fine.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

All shippers have issues. USPS contracts with FedEx. I have had only one issue with USPS, 4 days later the frogs arrived alive. I still use them, and have been extremely happy with my last few shipment. I have had an issue of some time with every shipping company (FedEx, UPS, DHL). I recommend purchasing postage online.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Jason,

These very rare frogs were KILLED by the USPS. Do you understand what happened here?

It is possible that you will not be killed by gun violence. So do you believe that no one is ever killed by gun violence?

It seems that some of the members here don't know that you can't extrapolate from the specific to the general experience.

Richard.



JJuchems said:


> All shippers have issues. USPS contracts with FedEx. I have had only one issue with USPS, 4 days later the frogs arrived alive. I still use them, and have been extremely happy with my last few shipment. I have had an issue of some time with every shipping company (FedEx, UPS, DHL). I recommend purchasing postage online.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words and thoughts everybody. Max and I appreciate it. 

Richard, as tempting as that is, I'm not sure I want to pursue it. Right now, our isopod and springtail sales are the only way we have to expand our collection. Family funds have to stay just that, family funds. I fear if I were to sue the post office, even just small claims, would they, could they, "Red Flag" anything I tried to send?
While I certainly won't be wanting to ship any frogs through them any time soon, they are really the only way to ship a bug. Nobody's going to pay $50 or $60 bucks for shipping on bugs. I'm also not sure how you would start to file against "the distribution center" when nobody will give any information on where they are or how to contact them.
I do think it's funny that they have a site, https://postalexperience.com/Pos that they use to tell them your opinion of their service. It is IMPOSSIBLE to get into if you used their online service. It only works with a counter receipt, which I do not have.
I know that at least one on you out there, is a little put off by my...should I say it? I think I have to...Going Postal on the postal service! It's not about any one individual. It's the whole stinking system. The entire organization is stacked not only against good service but also against the workers. To those good employees trying to do their jobs right, it must be a nightmare at times to be in the employ of an organization that refuses to allow proper customer service. An organization that refuses a possibly great employee to rise above mediocrity. You know who you are. I mean that, OK? It's not about the good workers that are out there. My apology, in advance, for the following.
Hey! Wouldn't that be a great new slogan for them?? _*UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE--**STRIVING FOR MEDIOCRITY!!*_ 
Or how about, _"*When it absolutely, positively, has to be there within a few weeks--give or take*"_
Then there's _"*The Forever Stamp*"_...Not gonna touch it...that's just too easy!
How about-- _*USPS--Isn't it about time to go postal?*_ Maybe I'm stretching for that one??

Lets do our part in improving USPS. Got any good slogans? Let's hear em!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> Hi Jason,
> 
> These very rare frogs were KILLED by the USPS. Do you understand what happened here?
> 
> ...


Every neighborhood is different, Richard. My city is ranked among the top safest cities in the country. Every post office, postal worker, and cargo plane, is different too.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Yes, I understand and I did not mention the frogs I shipped were very rare. What I am getting at is *it can happen through any carrier*. Unless you are hand delivering or using a personal courier service this is the risk. Seems like everyone one want to knock USPS when their are industry issues [shippers and carriers].


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Seems like everyone wants to knock USPS

WHEN THEY KILL YOUR FROGS!!!

Richard.



JJuchems said:


> Yes, I understand and I did not mention the frogs I shipped were very rare. What I am getting at is *it can happen through any carrier*. Unless you are hand delivering or using a personal courier service this is the risk. Seems like everyone one want to knock USPS when their are industry issues [shippers and carriers].


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I understand you're upset but Jesus Christ Richard tone it down a bit.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Woodsman said:


> Seems like everyone wants to knock USPS
> 
> WHEN THEY KILL YOUR FROGS!!!
> 
> Richard.


If we boycotted every carrier that has ever killed a frog in transit there would be no way left to ship...


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> I understand you're upset but *Jesus Christ Richard* tone it down a bit.


Irony that you're telling him to "tone it down" 

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I notice more ranting going on instead of ACTION being taken. 

The reptile hobby is growing despite the recession, the pet industry still grows and there is a statistic out there that claims this. If the demand grows high enough for any shipper to stop giving us run arounds with live animals, and if people would be RESPONSIBLE and not try and ship an adult burmese python or other dangerous herp, then they will listen because we will show them that it's a money maker.

However...

Considering the low participation rate just writing to the government about interstate chytrid makes this a moot point. We can complain all we want on a forum but honestly that doesn't really allievate the problems.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Rain_Frog said:


> Irony that you're telling him to "tone it down"
> 
> I've said this before, and I'll say it again: I notice more ranting going on instead of ACTION being taken.
> 
> ...


Um, ok whose ranting now boy?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

npaull said:


> Doug - terrible news about the frogs. Sorry that happened to you. I have to dissent about your overall thesis, though. I've shipped many dozens of frogs via USPS, and never had a problem that was due to them. And their price is generally half (literally) of their competitors. I've been very happy with them overall.


I'm sorry but you are wrong. My "overall thesis" is dead on. Their tracking sucks. It means nothing. Don't you realize that they have absolutely NO IDEA where in the country, these frogs may be? By there own admission they have done absolutely NOTHING to try to locate them and they will NEVER do anything to try to find a package. They simply wait to see if it will ever get scanned!



Rain_Frog said:


> That is why I use USPS. Knock on wood, I've never had an issue with USPS. Even though they tend to tip the box when it specifically says THIS SIDE UP, nothing bad has ever happened. The biggest problem I've had with USPS is that they don't gaurantee next day for every location. It's usually when someone lives out in the boonies away from a major city. Are people making sure to check the "express commitment gaurantee" BEFORE shipping? If you're not, you better start doing it.
> 
> And I have heard that labels on FedEx packages like FRAGILE aren't even read either.
> 
> ...


Seriously?? You're going to preach to me that I need to pack better? You don't know how I pack. It has been a week! 7 days! I would love to hear how many of your packages survived a week in transit. I have packed and shipped hundreds of live coral shipments successfully. It is not my packing methods in question here. Besides, these were going to Staten Island, New York, and it was guaranteed overnight. How is that "out in the boonies?"



JJuchems said:


> All shippers have issues. USPS contracts with FedEx. I have had only one issue with USPS, 4 days later the frogs arrived alive. I still use them, and have been extremely happy with my last few shipment. I have had an issue of some time with every shipping company (FedEx, UPS, DHL). I recommend purchasing postage online.


I does not matter that USPS subcontracts with FedEx if they cannot even get it to the plane! FedEx uses "real time" tracking and USPS tracking means absolutely nothing! I purchased the postage online to take advantage of on line tracking but it's not the same. If they contracted the ENTIRE JOB through FedEx maybe you would have a point, and maybe Richard would have some frogs, and maybe Max wouldn't be heartbroken, and maybe I would be able to pick up some Cristobals. But I can't get any Cristobals, and Max will be bummed for a while, Richard has no frogs, and you have no point.


I'm sorry, but some of this is crazy. I packed properly. If they show up dead and Richard tells you all I had 4 frogs crammed into an envelope with old fashioned heat packs duct taped to their tiny little foreheads, then you can all tear me apart, say it's all my own fault, and blackball me. 
Yes, all shipping companies have issues. But what do they do about them?? That's where customer service comes in. They are doing nothing people. Nothing. Absolutely dead diddly squat. Why is that defendable? How is that defendable? Why is it OK to sit back, admit that you will do nothing, and just wait to see what happens?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

What makes you think that the box is just sitting somewhere? I'm pretty sure they have people in the hubs making sure the belts are all working. its not like its a black whole where stuff just flys off and sits on the ground for weeks. Its more likely it got damaged in a way that made it undeliverable or stolen. Fedex can have all the same issues as usps. If you dont want to be "cheap" use delta., They have less issues than the 3 big shippers, and it gets there much faster.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

From my experiences, USPS and FEDEX do me pretty well. The only thing I dont like is when they leave my plant packages upsidedown  
UPS is the one I LOATHE. They have not once, EVER, gotten me my overnight and 2 day packages on time. Horrible. I have not had anything die. but thats just credit to my greenthumb


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

bussardnr said:


> Its more likely it got damaged in a way that made it undeliverable or stolen. Fedex can have all the same issues as usps. If you dont want to be "cheap" use delta., They have less issues than the 3 big shippers, and it gets there much faster.


Well I certainly don't understand why USPS destroying it or stealing it makes it any better. 
I do agree that Fedex can have problems. I won't agree that they have the same problems. There scanning and tracking processes are NOT the same as already stated and linked again down below. In my experience they are also unable to supply the same customer service.
Otherwise, I think that's pretty much my point. Going cheap is not the way to go.
From what I have always heard, Delta Dash would not deal with the smaller guys like me. I don't ship frogs often enough for them to set up an account with them.


Scott said:


> I also think the volume of the USPS makes it a bit hard to do some of the things we see FedEx/UPS do.
> 
> Another thing that I'm aware of that others might not be. They DO scan packages - they just don't have real time scanning. They have to put the scanners back in the cradle before the data is uploaded.
> 
> ...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

FedEx is nothing but trouble for me thanks to one "customer service" rep at the local facility. She will routinely mis-mark my live deliveries in the system, and has refused every live shipment I have presented. I have to drive a 45 mile round trip to the next closest facility just to be able to ship, and in a premium fuel guzzling Mustang that adds up quickly. 

There are worthless people in every organization, and I understand your anger at the frogs being lost, but jumping on everyone here who has had different experiences with the various carriers won't help anything.


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## Paul G (Feb 27, 2007)

Arguments aside.

I had been told by almost every breeder to never use USPS for shipping. I did a trade late last year and the person I was trading with convinced me to try USPS Express (cause of cost). I sent and received USPS for this trade. My package to them arrived on time with no issues but I had a couple DOAs which had NEVER happened to me in the past when shipping with UPS and Fedex.

The package coming to me was lost and no customer service person over the phone or at my local hub in person could tell me where it was other than it was scanned out of the city it departed from and it was now lost cause they could not locate what airline was shipping the Express package for them and even if they could locate what airline company that was overnighting it they had no way to contact them I was told. The USPS person at my local hub was very understanding and helpful and tried to do everything she could to locate someone who knew what was going on and even called me right before she left the closed hub just to let me know if the package arrived last minute after closing for the day.
(as a sidenote when I told her they were live frogs she became very upset and was almost in tears the entire time I was talking with her)
She called me the next day to keep me updated...still nothing.
The package arrived at my door at 12pm that day. The woman helping me at the hub did not even see the package go through the hub and the scans had not been updated.
I had three DOAs out of ten frogs.
All the phone reps for USPS were worthless and pretty rude.

I have had nothing but great transactions with Fedex in my area. The people at my local hub are fast and friendly and the drivers always put the boxes in the shade or actually wait a couple of minutes for me to get to the door.
UPS for me has been ok but I have had drivers leave the package upside down (when marked not to) and on one occasion the box was left on the sidewalk leading to my front door cause the driver was too lazy to come knock/ring at the door. I was quite upset with this needless action as I had not heard the truck so the box set in direct FL summer heat for an hour before I saw the updated scan that it had been delivered.
UPS gave me a minor issue when I dropped off at a hub once. The clerk asked what was "live" in the box and when I told her it was "exotic frogs" she asked if there were any venomous snakes in the box as well. (that was more of a irritation than an issue lol)

I don't believe one company is better than any of the others cause I have heard negative things about all three but these are just my expereinces; so I choose Fedex.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tony said:


> FedEx is nothing but trouble for me thanks to one "customer service" rep at the local facility. She will routinely mis-mark my live deliveries in the system, and has refused every live shipment I have presented. I have to drive a 45 mile round trip to the next closest facility just to be able to ship, and in a premium fuel guzzling Mustang that adds up quickly.
> 
> There are worthless people in every organization, and I understand your anger at the frogs being lost, but jumping on everyone here who has had different experiences with the various carriers won't help anything.


I apologize if I was "over the top" towards a few of these posts last night. You are right, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Sometimes, it's in how you word it. People are certainly free to disagree with me, but when I'm told that my overall thesis is wrong, I'm going to argue. They absolutely do not have the same type of tracking that Fedex uses. This is not opinion, it's a simple fact.
And I really don't think it's fair to be questioning my packing techniques here. You haven't seen how I packed these frogs. I'm not the only one who thinks that was out of line as I received PMs from others stating that those comments were out of line.

USPS was around long before FedEx or UPS were. Both FedEx and UPS arose due the the problems that USPS had with packages. There was a need for higher quality package delivery service and they were created to fill that need. People keep pointing out that USPS contracts through FedEx as if that means they are the same. They are not. USPS still has to be able to get the package into FedEx's hands. The fact that they contract through FedEx is not a good thing. It is because they cannot manage to do it themselves. They recognize their own inadequacies but rather than fix them, they hire someone else to try to cover it up. 
All this means is that your package is going through twice as many hands and twice as much processing than if you go straight through FedEx. Twice as much processing simply means twice as much opportunity to be lost.
Plus, you do not receive the benefits of FedEx's improved tracking system.
If you want to say that you've had good luck with USPS and plan to continue using them, that's just fine. But when you say that they are the same, you are wrong. They are not the same. If you do any amount of research on the internet about USPS, FedEx, USPS, and lost packages, it becomes clear in short order that while they all have problems, USPS loses more packages than the others.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry but you are wrong. My "overall thesis" is dead on. Their tracking sucks. It means nothing. Don't you realize that they have absolutely NO IDEA where in the country, these frogs may be? By there own admission they have done absolutely NOTHING to try to locate them and they will NEVER do anything to try to find a package. They simply wait to see if it will ever get scanned!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In reality they are not going to spend several man hours trying to find your package. It simply makes no business sense to do so. I agree that it sucks because they are live frogs but to the business end of the matter it is cheaper to refund the cost of shipping and the cost of goods (and in this case live and/or perishable goods are not refundable). This could have happened with any carrier and if you do a search you will find several examples in which it has. In the end our live orders are no more important then someone shipping a box of books. That is the chance we take everytime we ship a live animal. I do not think anyone is giving them a pass, simply just understanding that this will happen from time to time and you are the unfortunate one that it has happened to.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just face the truth.. 
they are somewhere getting fitted for bandolero outfits and listening to a tape of Mariachi music as they make thier way to join with the glorious Peruvian Frog Banditos...


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> It seems that some of the members here don't know that you can't extrapolate from the specific to the general experience.


But this is what you're doing, as well. What happened is terrible, no question. Your service has been awful. But that doesn't totally negate the fact that others have had good experiences. Both should be considered. And other people have had bad experiences with other shipping companies.

Anyway, I don't think this needs to be a huge argument. I'm very sorry this has happened, I don't want to stir up any animosity just because of differing experiences with shipping companies.


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## jsh21 (Jan 24, 2007)

Sorry you guys lost your frogs. I have never purchased one myself but for packages worth as much as this one an insurance policy might be worthwhile. I would extensively research it before I bought one though. Based on a quick review of the USPS website the one they offer does not cover “spoiled items” (which would probably include animal deaths). I did not look to see what other carriers offered.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

None of the carriers insure live animals.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Just face the truth..
> they are somewhere getting fitted for bandolero outfits and listening to a tape of Mariachi music as they make thier way to join with the glorious Peruvian Frog Banditos...


_*La cucaracha La cucaracha -- Something something something else!*_


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Tony said:


> None of the carriers insure live animals.


I have had FedEx refund the price of marine fish along with shipping but that was intiated by the business I bought them from.....Just saying.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> From what I have always heard, Delta Dash would not deal with the smaller guys like me. I don't ship frogs often enough for them to set up an account with them.


You know, I've asked before on this forum about how to use them, but not very many people had much to say.

I personally would like to start using them myself for large orders, except the airport isn't a walk in the park away. I could walk to my local USPS if I wanted to.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

I've heard you have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get an account, but everyone should be able to.


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## chadfarmer (Nov 2, 2008)

never had a problem with delta dash


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## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

Randy said:


> During the last few years, every time I've shipped it's been via Delta Dash. Same day delivery, $67 plus tax for up to 20 lbs, airport to airport. You've got to jump through a couple of hoops to become a shipper through Delta, but if you ship frogs more than a few times a year, it's well worth the extra effort. Not once have I, or the receiver, ever had a problem. I've shipped to New York from Kansas City and it was there before lunch for cryin out loud! Not everyone lives very close to an airport, so that can be an issue... But in short, if you ship infrequently, use a less parcel-burdoned courier service than USPS. If you ship frequently and have the means, ship via Delta.
> 
> Good luck with the Vanzo's guys, I'll keep my fingers crossed! I know that must be a nail-biting experience...



I was just on the Delta website and the $67 dollar rate is for normal packages. The rate for live (cold blooded) animals was listed at $134. Is this a recent change in the price structure because $134 is steep for airport to airport.
Doug


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

I had a pretty bad experience with USPS I ordered leaf litter and it came in a bag like package and the dude was trying to cram it into my little mail box and then when it would'nt fit he tossed in on the ground and drove off like nothing happened


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

chadfarmer said:


> never had a problem with delta dash


When I worked for a pet store we had shipments lost through Delta Dash.. 

In reality there are risks to any shipping methods.


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

DougP said:


> I was just on the Delta website and the $67 dollar rate is for normal packages. The rate for live (cold blooded) animals was listed at $134. Is this a recent change in the price structure because $134 is steep for airport to airport.
> Doug


Prices do go up every quarter, but it's the base rate plus how ever many pounds your shipping.......My usual 17x17x10 box from Florida to the West Coast is around $75-$90 depending on destination, weight, and what service is being used.......95% of my shipments through Delta go AVI instead of Dash, just because the flights are the same and there's no sense in paying extra for Dash and not getting an upgraded service........

Just an FYI with Delta - You have to watch when you're destination is a smaller Airport - It'll catch a commuter Flight instead of a direct flight, and that's where alot of Delta's late arrivals stem from - Even if you use Dash, which should have priority over any other Cargo in the Airplane ( Even luggage ), the guys that load things don't neccessarily think that way........

And you HAVE TO CALL Delta.......Don't trust anything to do with the website......I can't reiterate that enough........


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## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

EricIvins said:


> Prices do go up every quarter, but it's the base rate plus how ever many pounds your shipping.......My usual 17x17x10 box from Florida to the West Coast is around $75-$90 depending on destination, weight, and what service is being used.......95% of my shipments through Delta go AVI instead of Dash, just because the flights are the same and there's no sense in paying extra for Dash and not getting an upgraded service........
> 
> Just an FYI with Delta - You have to watch when you're destination is a smaller Airport - It'll catch a commuter Flight instead of a direct flight, and that's where alot of Delta's late arrivals stem from - Even if you use Dash, which should have priority over any other Cargo in the Airplane ( Even luggage ), the guys that load things don't neccessarily think that way........
> 
> And you HAVE TO CALL Delta.......Don't trust anything to do with the website......I can't reiterate that enough........



Good to know.
Doug


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

i read 13 pages just to see if at any point the box was returned, the status on the nuber changed... any type of status update, sadly none.

i ship international a lot, and am stuck with USPS and when priority started getting a 50% fail and the 50% that got there took 30 days+ i went to express (yeah its hard to charge someone $40 for shipping on a $110 product). but now im down to about 25% fail and the other 75% get there in a timely manner. 

what business lives on 75% delivery and actually stays in business? im sure the next question is why i use them? its because no one lese wants to ship a battery.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

motydesign said:


> i read 13 pages just to see if at any point the box was returned, the status on the nuber changed... any type of status update, sadly none.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68461-miracle.html


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

10 DAYS!! They are alive!!!! Woo Hooo!!!! Thanks to everybody who sent good thoughts there way and to all who commiserated with me. Thanks to Ed for giving me a little levity in a time I could really use it. Yes, I'm gonna say it, Thanks to the MAN upstairs for bringing them through it all.
I hope my packaging methods are no longer in question. I'm pretty sure I hold the record now for frogs surviving the longest time in transit!!


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Doug, you need to run out and buy some lottery tickets ASAP! So glad to hear they made it. I'm sure Frogboy is stoked!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, and thanks, of course to Richard (Woodsman) for his patience and understanding through all of this. Of course a huge thanks for Richards phone call this afternoon that MADE MY DAY! 
And yes! Frogboy is stoked!


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

WOW!!!!!..............that's pretty amazing. It pays to be a great frog packer upper


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## train crash (Feb 8, 2009)

luckily here in the uk our postal service(when its not on strike) is actually fairly effective. had my frogs deliverd in under 20 hours. but to be fair the frogs NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE IN THE UK on have about 1300 miles or so to go, if that. if the post lose it here then they are really crap. just gald that the frogs made it to your freind doug, i was reading that thread, 9 days late, ouch.


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## David Becher (Feb 10, 2010)

Was on vacation... But I'm really glad to hear the frogs got there fine! Just shows how tips on packing are coming in handy more often, *presses the DB is a pro Site button*.


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## bobbittle (Nov 3, 2009)

Allyn Loring said:


> I have to wonder if there are any of the shipping companies employees lurking here


Maybe. 

Whatcha want to know? Keep in mind I am but a small part of a 4000 person facility and don't know alot. And I will say nothing to endanger my job.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Scenario 1: I shipped 7 frogs to NY on Oct 31, Express Mail guaranteed after 3 PM on November 1st. After the buyer called on November 1, I found out they never made it. They were delivered a day late. Thankfully, all the frogs made it just fine. I got the buyer's money refunded and sent back to him.

Scenario 2: I shipped 20 frogs to Maryland on November 1st. Express mail guaranteed after 3 PM delivery on November 2nd. And just like the previous day, I received a text from the buyer that they had not arrived. A check of the USPS website, even an hour after delivery on November 3, had that the frogs were in Peoria, IL, even though they had been delivered! Once again, they arrived a day late, and all frogs were fine (although the thought of losing 20 frogs didn't sit well). Once again, I got the shipping money refunded.

Two times in 2 days! But look at the bright side! This shipping was FREE!


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

They actually made it.

I'm elated. Cute little buggers!! Hope Richard fed and watered them well and they are adjusting to their new homes.



When i ordered the mourning geckos the seller wanted to send USPS, and I agreed and opted to do a post office pick up. My experience, while not as bad as yours was similar - they do not have the tracking capability that FEDEX and UPS has and I won't be using them for live animals again.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

lincolnrailers said:


> Scenario 1: I shipped 7 frogs to NY on Oct 31, Express Mail guaranteed after 3 PM on November 1st. After the buyer called on November 1, I found out they never made it. They were delivered a day late. Thankfully, all the frogs made it just fine. I got the buyer's money refunded and sent back to him.
> 
> Scenario 2: I shipped 20 frogs to Maryland on November 1st. Express mail guaranteed after 3 PM delivery on November 2nd. And just like the previous day, I received a text from the buyer that they had not arrived. A check of the USPS website, even an hour after delivery on November 3, had that the frogs were in Peoria, IL, even though they had been delivered! Once again, they arrived a day late, and all frogs were fine (although the thought of losing 20 frogs didn't sit well). Once again, I got the shipping money refunded.
> 
> Two times in 2 days! But look at the bright side! This shipping was FREE!


Glad they made it!



BethInAK said:


> They actually made it.
> 
> I'm elated. Cute little buggers!! Hope Richard fed and watered them well and they are adjusting to their new homes.


Not adjusting...Adjusted. They are happily breeding for him.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

lincolnrailers said:


> Scenario 1: I shipped 7 frogs to NY on Oct 31, Express Mail guaranteed after 3 PM on November 1st. After the buyer called on November 1, I found out they never made it. They were delivered a day late. Thankfully, all the frogs made it just fine. I got the buyer's money refunded and sent back to him.
> 
> Scenario 2: I shipped 20 frogs to Maryland on November 1st. Express mail guaranteed after 3 PM delivery on November 2nd. And just like the previous day, I received a text from the buyer that they had not arrived. A check of the USPS website, even an hour after delivery on November 3, had that the frogs were in Peoria, IL, even though they had been delivered! Once again, they arrived a day late, and all frogs were fine (although the thought of losing 20 frogs didn't sit well). Once again, I got the shipping money refunded.
> 
> Two times in 2 days! But look at the bright side! This shipping was FREE!



I would rather have them delivered on time then have them late and get shipping for free.....Refunding the shipping is the least they could do....

Glad they made it safe though that is the most important thing.


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## Dendrodaved (May 4, 2010)

Glad they Made it for you guys, I just received a Male Patricia today via USPS and I was tracking it all last night and it showed it went from mass. to RI and then back to Mass. then the status did not change till this a.m. and it then showed Tampa, WHEW!! That's when I started to breathe again and they arrived on schedule. But then I always stress out when it comes to frog shipments.


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## xsputnikx (May 11, 2010)

You know if I had the funds and know how I would put a patent on this but a good idea would be why not just use gps tracking for packages instead of the old scan at location method. You have a small gps device that transmits location at all times. When you take your package to be shipped they strap device to package give you a tracking number that pulls up a map so you can watch the package move in real time. So even if it gets lost you can still know where it went. 

If we can have gps on our vehicles , pets, children and phones surely it couldnt be too difficult to put one on your frog shipments.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

xsputnikx said:


> You know if I had the funds and know how I would put a patent on this but a good idea would be why not just use gps tracking for packages instead of the old scan at location method. You have a small gps device that transmits location at all times. When you take your package to be shipped they strap device to package give you a tracking number that pulls up a map so you can watch the package move in real time. So even if it gets lost you can still know where it went.
> 
> If we can have gps on our vehicles , pets, children and phones surely it couldnt be too difficult to put one on your frog shipments.


Good idea, but I think the cost would kill it. You could do it with a deposit, but people still don't like that.
Besides, with USPS it would not matter. You could tell them exactly where it was and they still would not check. I'm 90% sure it was at the Denver Hub the entire time, but they flat out refused to go and see if it fell off a conveyer belt.
A couple of weeks ago I shipped a box of feathers out to someone. Eventually tracking said the the address was undeliverable and it was being returned. Turned out the address was good and it did eventually get to them over a week ago. Tracking still says that it is on it's way back to me. I had opened a case about it and I got an email yesterday saying it is still being investigated. It was insured for $500. If I were a crook I could probably collect on it!


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

USPS outsourced its package shipping (that includes all your frog shipments you're complaining about) to UPS a few years ago. You can blame the post office because they're the ones you're doing the business with, but when it comes down to it, it's likely UPS who lost it. In my experience, local USPS delivery people are the big variable when using USPS. My delivery service around here is useless so I never have packages delivered by USPS, but on a whole when I send packages I have had generally good experiences with all of the carriers. 

My favorite right now is Fedex because I live by a hub and they know exactly what to do with my frogs if I'm sending or receiving. But USPS sure beats them on price, provided you're prepared for a couple of delayed shipments every now and then, and generally later-in-the-day delivery.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

johnc said:


> USPS outsourced its package shipping (that includes all your frog shipments you're complaining about) to UPS a few years ago. You can blame the post office because they're the ones you're doing the business with, but when it comes down to it, it's likely UPS who lost it. In my experience, local USPS delivery people are the big variable when using USPS. My delivery service around here is useless so I never have packages delivered by USPS, but on a whole when I send packages I have had generally good experiences with all of the carriers.
> 
> My favorite right now is Fedex because I live by a hub and they know exactly what to do with my frogs if I'm sending or receiving. But USPS sure beats them on price, provided you're prepared for a couple of delayed shipments every now and then, and generally later-in-the-day delivery.


John, that's all part of why I won't use them for frogs. Outsourcing doesn't let them off the hook. The fact that they can't get the job done themselves simply adds to the problem. It simply means that your frogs have to go through twice as many hands, twice as many systems, and have twice as many chances to get lost.
Further, if you were UPS management and had an emergency space issue or whatever, who would you bump? Your own customers who paid a premium price? Or the cheap, "wholesale" packages from USPS?


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