# Major fight!!!



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

This morning I woke up to an azureus fight. The two males were grappling and calling. The light blue male was dominating the dark blue one; pinning him and pushing his head up into the wall. My first thought was to remove the light blue male and maybe get a female for him. I also thought I could remove the dark blue male and do the same- but then he hasn't done anything wrong and I don't want to put him under more stress. I got the suggestion from a breeder on another forum to just let the fighting pass and make sure the dark blue male is eating right and acting normally. Would this be considered safe? I want to give both males a chance to breed and despite the female not seeming to have a preference for one male over the other, I don't think they'll be happy "sharing" her. 

What do I do?

EDIT: The fight is over. The dark blue male has stayed in the area, but has moved a bit. The light blue male and the female are nowhere to be seen, but I'm still worried about the dark blue male.


----------



## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

seperate , the winner will dominate the other, eventually thin out and die.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I also vote for separation. I've heard a few people say that when the male has competition it may be better for breeding. But personally, I think that possibly leaving one frog under constant stress and getting beat up is just cruel.


----------



## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

How large of an enclosure?

In most cases it is just best to remove the submissive animal. If fights are not frequent and you can be diligent about observing every animals condition, eating habits, etc.. A 2.1 group can work in a larger enclosure.

Your safest bet is going to be to remove the sub animal. It's not that stressful and is probably better than the alternative.


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I would probably vote for separation too. I'm not a fan of keeping Azureus in anything but same sex pairs (sometimes), or actual pairs...It just doesn't seem to go well. In my experience same sex frogs with out the other sex to trigger aggression will generally be ok. For instance I have 2 female azureus in an 18T...The tank is about 6 feet to my right while I sit at the computer. If I'm awake, considering I've been unemployed for quite awhile then chances are I'm at my computer. I've seen one minor scuffle so not to worried about these frogs. They routinely cross each others paths without incident or submissive postures etc.. I have a feeling if I threw male in there all hell would break loose.

An older similar experience several years ago, was 2 males together...they were fine, moved a female into the tanks and it turned into a cage match, kungfu attacks from one end of the tank to the other with neither frog willing to let it drop. Immediately pulled a frog which ended hostilities. 

Sometimes it will just depend on the personalities of the frogs...My 2 females may get along well together...Your's may fight a lot and one get really stressed and die in a 6mo to a year. So I've seen one scuffle with my 2 and they've been together for a long time....but they've got my attention now. If this becomes a weekly, or even semi monthly thing, then they will be separated. 

So 1 fight..maybe not a big deal...but if it was really bad then chances are even when they aren't fighting more subtle things may be going on that are stressing one or both frogs. My event was what I would call a minor scuffle compared to other frog fights I've seen. If It had been worse I may have pulled a frog...as it is I'm holding off. If a pattern begins to emerge then you should definitely consider separating them asap.


----------



## Dartre (Apr 21, 2013)

separate and find females for both...then you can sell me froglets


----------



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

The viv is 70 cm wide by 50 cm high and 40 cm deep. These males do not fight regularly, in fact this is only the second time I've ever seen them fighting (the first time being over a year ago) but separation does appear to be the best option at this point. Should I get a female for the one that I'll be removing?


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Of course! Two breeding tanks are always better than one!


----------



## Dartre (Apr 21, 2013)

Yes, frogs that are in pairs/trios do better. They are very social creatures. If you isolate one it may die anyway.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Dartre said:


> If you isolate one it may die anyway.


 Why do you say that? They can do fine on their own.

I'm pro group. I have many trio's. 2.1 and 1.2 and as many as 4.1

A squabble doesn't mean any frog is going to wither up and die. How long did this last and what are they doing now?

Geez, my Leucs and Arautus fight more than my Tincs...


----------



## Elphaba (Aug 26, 2007)

Dartre said:


> Yes, frogs that are in pairs/trios do better. They are very social creatures. If you isolate one it may die anyway.


This is not true at all. A frog by itself will not die of loneliness. 

Like Wendy said, though, two breeding tanks are better than one. If I were you, I'd separate out the two males and get ladies for both. =)

Best,
Ash


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

A photo of the tank would help.


----------



## Dartre (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm not saying that a solo frog can't do fine on its own, but if it is removed from a stressed location after living with a tank-mate and isolated this can lead to even more stress. There are lots of variables here. As you suggest a little squabble may not lead to anything, it is just my suggestion that if they are separated that tank-mates help reduce stress...if they get along.


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Dartre said:


> I'm not saying that a solo frog can't do fine on its own, but if it is removed from a stressed location after living with a tank-mate and isolated this can lead to even more stress.


That's worded much better and is a possibility.


----------



## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Ummm...nope. Isolation will not cause death! Or lead to separation disorder for the frog... 

Quite a few darts are solitary animals by nature. Unless it's breeding season... 

Casper




Dartre said:


> Yes, frogs that are in pairs/trios do better. They are very social creatures. If you isolate one it may die anyway.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Dartre said:


> Yes, frogs that are in pairs/trios do better. They are very social creatures. If you isolate one it may die anyway.


Where are you getting this erroneous information? Frogs will do fine as solitary specimens, they are not social creatures and they do not need the company of others in order to thrive. Seperation may or may not be necessary. The size of this viv was stated as 70x50x40cm (27.55x19.68x15.74in) certainly big enough for a pair and probably the 2.1 trio that's currently in there. Given the fact the OP has only seen this behavior twice in a year, I tend to think the group is pretty stable as it is. This squabble may just a prelude to breeding activity.
I would keep a close eye on this group for either more aggressive behavior and breeding behavior.


----------



## Dartre (Apr 21, 2013)

Yes, goldies do great isolated, but in my experience most tincs do much better in pairs/groups...again, I'm not saying that you can't isolate them...I'd just provide a tank-mate if possible. Maybe my group-first philosophy is a little overboard, but it is the way I was taught to raise my frogs and my frogs have all done great.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

While I won't say that a tinc would die of loneliness (because I have no clue), I do believe that they do better with others around. From what I've experienced, they seem to be more visible and active than those who are kept solitary in a tank. The loners tend to more often be in the shadows and plants while those who have a tankmate are more often hopping all around the tank. Is it my imagination? Maybe. But, it's happened enough that I think it's true.


----------



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> they are not social creatures and they do not need the company of others in order to thrive.





frogfreak said:


> Why do you say that? They can do fine on their own.
> 
> I'm pro group. I have many trio's. 2.1 and 1.2 and as many as 4.1
> 
> ...


Not saying they don't but IME darts do better with at least one companion then they do alone. If you remember back to a few years ago when I had newly registered, one of my auratus died leaving my current female alone for a few months until I got my hands on a male. While she was alone she was extremely reclusive; often not leaving her coconut hut except to feed and being somewhat lethargic. As soon as I got another auratus she became one of the boldest and most active of my frogs. 
That being said I do know that darts can live alone. They just seem happier with some companionship.


----------



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> While I won't say that a tinc would die of loneliness (because I have no clue), I do believe that they do better with others around. From what I've experienced, they seem to be more visible and active than those who are kept solitary in a tank. The loners tend to more often be in the shadows and plants while those who have a tankmate are more often hopping all around the tank. Is it my imagination? Maybe. But, it's happened enough that I think it's true.


Dang, it seems that whenever I have anything to say around here someone else has come and said it first.
The males seem to be effectively ignoring each other at this point. The female ATM is near the coconut hut and I have suspicions that she may have laid eggs in there. I'll go take a look.
*EDIT: Okay, now I really think I might need to separate them. The light blue male is sitting on the dark blue, who doesn't seem to be putting up much resistance if any.*


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Not saying they don't but IME darts do better with at least one companion then they do alone. If you remember back to a few years ago when I had newly registered, one of my auratus died leaving my current female alone for a few months until I got my hands on a male. While she was alone she was extremely reclusive; often not leaving her coconut hut except to feed and being somewhat lethargic. As soon as I got another auratus she became one of the boldest and most active of my frogs.
> That being said I do know that darts can live alone. They just seem happier with some companionship.


Ah, but I said they'd do fine alone. I didn't say their bahaviour wouldn't change with a tank mate did I?  

Behaviour changes in group situations too and that's why I prefer groups over pairs.


----------



## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Dang, it seems that whenever I have anything to say around here someone else has come and said it first.


Ummm....sorry? Lol! That's why I don't post very much either.


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Dang, it seems that whenever I have anything to say around here someone else has come and said it first.
> The males seem to be effectively ignoring each other at this point. The female ATM is near the coconut hut and I have suspicions that she may have laid eggs in there. I'll go take a look.
> *EDIT: Okay, now I really think I might need to separate them. The light blue male is sitting on the dark blue, who doesn't seem to be putting up much resistance if any.*


I'm hoping you have eggs!!!


----------



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

I hope so, too.
You know, I wonder if the female is enjoying these squabbles. She does seem to be watching them with amused interest. 
Hmm...


----------



## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> She does seem to be watching them with amused interest.


Mate selection.


----------



## Toxic (Jul 9, 2012)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> I hope so, too.
> You know, I wonder if the female is enjoying these squabbles. She does seem to be watching them with amused interest.
> Hmm...


Haha that's funny 
Im sure she enjoys two strong men fighting over her.


----------



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

I think I'll keep an eye on the two males over the next little while. If the fighting doesn't pass I'll probably remove one and find another female for him.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Wonder if you rearranged the cage if that would do anything. Add more huts etc. etc.


----------



## Boboluke (Apr 12, 2013)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'm hoping you have eggs!!!


Perfect timing on this one.

I had the exact same thing happen with my trio yesterday. All day long the 2 males were back and forth. Neither one is showing signs as dominant or submissive. They go back and forth.

The female would hop over when one got pinned and start rubbing on the top male. All 3 would then run over to a coco hut.

The next round would begin after about 10-15 minutes and last for about 10 minutes. Then all 3 run to hut #2.

This happened all day long.

Today I got home to find the female hanging out on the log. I peeked in on each hut.. Hut #1 has 2 eggs and one male. Hut #2 has 1 egg and one male.


----------

