# What species doesn't make sense to you?



## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

I'm always interested to hear about what appeals to people and why. For most species, I can at least understand the appeal even if it's not for me.

However, there is one that I just don't get. To avoid this thread becoming about that species, I'll withhold mine until a few replies have been posted.

So the question is simple, is there any species that you don't understand the appeal of keeping at all?

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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Good question! I totally get where you're coming from. For me, it's Aurotaenia, Terribilis, Iquitos, Tincs, Azureus. I kid, I kid. I just copied and pasted that from your signature ;-) 

There are some species and morphs that just don't do it for me, and it's usually color that makes it hard for me. I like Tincs that have blue and yellow, but not ones that just have yellow. Makes no sense, though, because I love leucs, too  I have a hard time with anthonyii, too. I had a breeding group of Santa Isabels for quite a while. They are delightful little frogs, but I am red-green color blind and they were not a bright enough red for me to see well. Maybe that's the same reason that I really like black and white frogs (Quinquevittatus and Rio Cascajal/Pena Blanca auratus). The pattern really sticks out to me. 

Attitude is another thing that makes me like or dislike some frogs. I love the Terribilis attitude where they aren't backing down for anything. I don't like some of the auratus morphs I have had where they hide all the time. I also like frogs that I never know where in the tank they are going to be because they like to climb all over everything. 

I am sure I will think of lots of other frog prejudices I have when other people chime in 

Anyway, I am sure everybody else's mileage will vary. I am sure glad that we have so many species and morphs available in the hobby so that we can all keep what strikes our fancy!

Mark


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Encyclia said:


> Good question! I totally get where you're coming from. For me, it's Aurotaenia, Terribilis, Iquitos, Tincs, Azureus. I kid, I kid. I just copied and pasted that from your signature ;-)
> 
> There are some species and morphs that just don't do it for me, and it's usually color that makes it hard for me. I like Tincs that have blue and yellow, but not ones that just have yellow. Makes no sense, though, because I love leucs, too  I have a hard time with anthonyii, too. I had a breeding group of Santa Isabels for quite a while. They are delightful little frogs, but I am red-green color blind and they were not a bright enough red for me to see well. Maybe that's the same reason that I really like black and white frogs (Quinquevittatus and Rio Cascajal/Pena Blanca auratus). The pattern really sticks out to me.
> 
> ...


I started reading your reply and this was how that thought process went.

"Wow, aurotaenia, most people don't even know they exist, what a weird frog to think of first... terribilis, hmm maybe he just dislikes phyllobates,... iquitos, weird, now he dislikes bright thumbnails?... tincs, wait, all of them?!, azureus, wait a gosh darn second..."

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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

MrBiggs said:


> I started reading your reply and this was how that thought process went.
> 
> "Wow, aurotaenia, most people don't even know they exist, what a weird frog to think of first... terribilis, hmm maybe he just dislikes phyllobates,... iquitos, weird, now he dislikes bright thumbnails?... tincs, wait, all of them?!, azureus, wait a gosh darn second..."
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U1 using Tapatalk


That's fantastic  My work here is done.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Tincs. Their angular backs. I'll probably own them some day but those backs always stick out to me in pictures.


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## chillfargochill (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm almost positive you're trolling. The suspense is killing me!


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I feel the same way about the shape of tincs. That high, bony arch looks weird to me, as if they've all been in terrible, disfiguring accidents. Most of them have color schemes that don't appeal to me, either, but there are a few I like. I like Koetari river, new river, green sips, true sips, azureus, robertus, Brazilian yellow heads, and Matecho, but most of the rest just don't strike my fancy. There's something about the particular shades of blue and yellow most tincs have that just doesn't suit my aesthetic sensibility. I tend to like them more when there's more of a gradient between the blue and yellow, and when the blue leans more aqua or purple-y, and the yellow tilts toward a warm, cheerful orange. 

Leucs look like plastic toys to me, for some reason. Benedictas, fantasticas, and vanzolinis don't really do anything for me, either. There's something about the colors and patterns of all these that seems garish to me. I'm not into polka dot patterns at all. 

I'm really into ameerega, terribilis, bicolor, all the auratus, several oophaga, and most of the imitators. I love the shapes of auratus, as well as their patterns. The aquas, greens and blues they have really drive the bulk of my interest in frogs, actually. I like the oophaga species because they're shaped like auratus, but with bigger eyes, like they're the intermediary between auratus and terribilis. They also come in some cool colors, though I'm not terribly into the red and blue types. 

I think the ameerega have cool textures, and they have interesting movements. The size of terribilis and bicolors makes them fun to watch. I think for terribilis, the iridescence is just unspeakably beautiful. Mints are by far my favorite. I also enjoy a variety of calls, and having my house sound like a rainforest. That's what makes me like the Santa Isabels, and Zarayungas. I LOVE that pale green with the deep red, especially on the highlands, which have wider green stripes. I also like that their stripes are irregular. 

I like big, dramatic, random patterns and jewel tones a lot. Auratus hit a lot of my primary criteria, which is probably why I adore them so much. Right now, I'm especially enamored of the green and whites, Capurgana, Pena Blanca, Rio Cascajal, Campana, and highland bronze.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

chillfargochill said:


> I'm almost positive you're trolling. The suspense is killing me!


I'm not trolling.

Okay, so my turn I guess.

Most keepers seem to migrate to thumbnails the longer they are in the hobby. I've been in for... well, a while, and I'm not seeing that happen to me. The primary reason is that I like frogs that I can see almost every time I look at the tank. Thumbnails, even bold ones, rarely fit that criteria. But I get why people like them! Fantastic colors, cool traits, very self sufficient life cycle for many species, etc.

However, the species I don't get is auratus. To me, they act like thumbnails in bigger bodies. Skittish, shy,... why? If you are going to have a frog you'll never see anyway, why not go for some super cool thumbnail?

So, that's mine. 

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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Oh I'm about to step on some toes with this one.

Little frogs. I'm going to give imitators or variabilis another try. However, I just don't understand the fascination. The egg feeding behaviour is kind of interesting, but these things are so tiny you have to have your face on the glass to see them. Yes they're beautiful with insane colors, but that doesnt do much good at the size of a finger nail 3ft away. People seem to be infatuated with them though and pay some pretty insane prices.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I was beginning to suspect that auratus were the one species you just didn't get. It seems like a lot of people steer away from them due to their shyness.

I guess I've been lucky with my auratus so far. I see them every day, though my Costa Rican green and blacks are much more reclusive than the others. They're the smallest, and they were tank raised. All my others were hand raised, and I have a few that act like terribilis. I have a couple I can touch without much response, and some who either don't move at all, or move towards my hand at feeding time. It's also been my observation that the larger ones in each group have so far been bolder. They could be the largest BECAUSE they are the boldest, and most willing to eat at every opportunity, whether there's commotion near their tank or not. I think the hand rearing conditions them to associate hands and their keeper's presence with food. 

I hand mist, and time it to coincide with feeding, so they tend to come out when they see me approach the tank. I don't know if it's just sheer luck, or if my routine makes a difference. Furthermore, my tanks are scattered in the house, not in a dedicated frog room. 

My personal hunch is also that the more recently imported or uncommon the morph is the more shy it is, but the CR g&b are neither new nor uncommon, so I can only suspect their tank rearing leaves them less acclimated to human presence, similar to recent imports.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I love this! This is exactly why we have so many frogs in the hobby. It's because not everybody likes the same things. Everybody has their favorites and if I advocate toward a certain type of frogs when people ask the near-daily question about which frog they should get, I just try to offer balanced opinions about which frogs are out there that fit whichever criteria they mention in their thread. I like certain things about all of them (that's probably how I ended up with 5 genera (and counting!) in my collection). If we all liked the same things, many of the frogs in the hobby would disappear.

The complaints about the little frogs are valid. I would usually not advocate certain ones of them to be the first frogs in a collection (any more than I would advocate for auratus being first frogs) because you must be able to see your frogs to learn how to be a good frog keeper. That is not guaranteed with some of the little fellas. There are exceptions, though. I want everybody to check out what's out there and decide based on their own research.

Keep up the good work, folks. I want to hear more opinions! I am learning a ton from this thread. Good work, MrBiggs!

Mark


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Encyclia said:


> If we all liked the same things, many of the frogs in the hobby would disappear.


This is how I feel about both frogs and breeds of dog.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

I will add an addendum to my previous comments on thumbnails. Although I don't see myself going that direction, I JUST got some R. Variabilis Southerns and I love them. Beautiful, and more bold in their first day than any thumb I've seen or kept before.









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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Woodswalker said:


> I was beginning to suspect that auratus were the one species you just didn't get. It seems like a lot of people steer away from them due to their shyness.
> 
> I guess I've been lucky with my auratus so far. I see them every day, though my Costa Rican green and blacks are much more reclusive than the others. They're the smallest, and they were tank raised. All my others were hand raised, and I have a few that act like terribilis. I have a couple I can touch without much response, and some who either don't move at all, or move towards my hand at feeding time. It's also been my observation that the larger ones in each group have so far been bolder. They could be the largest BECAUSE they are the boldest, and most willing to eat at every opportunity, whether there's commotion near their tank or not. I think the hand rearing conditions them to associate hands and their keeper's presence with food.
> 
> ...


Your comments about habits sound a lot like mine. And yet, the only auratus I've owned (also GnBs) were suuuuuuper shy.

Maybe it's that morph?

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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

That could be. I wonder how other green and black keepers would characterize their groups, particularly in comparison to their other auratus.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Woodswalker said:


> I feel the same way about the shape of tincs. That high, bony arch looks weird to me, as if they've all been in terrible, disfiguring accidents.


I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that. I was worried that I was going to get blasted for saying a lot of people's favorite species looks disfigured.




Woodswalker said:


> Most of them have color schemes that don't appeal to me, either, but there are a few I like. .... but most of the rest just don't strike my fancy. There's something about the particular shades of blue and yellow most tincs have that just doesn't suit my aesthetic sensibility. I tend to like them more when there's more of a gradient between the blue and yellow, and when the blue leans more aqua or purple-y,


I agree with these parts too. I dont _hate_ tincs, but their disfigured shape sticks out whenever I look at them and most of their color patterns don't interest me. I like Azureus, Green Sip, Vanessa, New River, and Oyapok. The rest just remind me of a very young child that got a hold of some markers and went to town on a coloring book with no regard for staying in the lines....


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Okapi said:


> I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that. I was worried that I was going to get blasted for saying a lot of people's favorite species looks disfigured.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The whole point of this thread is to say that stuff! Who cares if you hate a certain frog? Doesn't change anything for me. The beauty of our hobby is that we have soooooo many NATURAL choices!

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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

That gave me a good chuckle, Okapi. 

I was a little hesitant about this thread, because I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings about their favorite frogs, or discourage anyone from liking what they like. I'm not a fan of dampening people's enthusiasm for things they enjoy. Life has enough grumbly bits already. I'm glad this has tended towards humor and lighthearted discussion.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

It was always meant to be lighthearted. 

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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

That seemed to be your intent. Threads sometimes take some weird turns, but I'm liking this one.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Okapi said:


> I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed that. I was worried that I was going to get blasted for saying a lot of people's favorite species looks disfigured.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If people get upset over that they have a long life ahead of them.

I do agree with the coloring book analogy. Those illegal tumuc tincs that everyone wants so badly look like that to me.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Woodswalker said:


> That seemed to be your intent. Threads sometimes take some weird turns, but I'm liking this one.


Dart froggers can be a touchy bunch lol


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## JimM (Oct 2, 2018)

MrBiggs said:


> I'm not trolling.
> 
> Okay, so my turn I guess.
> 
> ...


You just helped me decide on tincts for my living room display.
I was getting drawn in by some of the auatus colors.

However I think I'll roll the dice and see if I'm one of those people that can pull of a tinc group.


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## JimM (Oct 2, 2018)

Even though I'm new to keeping darts, I have done several dart frog T-shirt designs for clients in years past. Nature Company, Natural Wonders, East Bay Vivarium in Berkeley...and I never put a Leuc in any of them, nor are they in the running for my display.

Yellow and Black....just isn't attractive to me...at least on a frog.
Funny because one my favorite fish that I ever had was a young Queensland Grouper, and it's colored basically like a Leuc.

On a frog though...nah. So I guess coming full circle, it doens't make sense to me because I don't like it.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Not a pdf but glass frogs I don't understand either


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Epipedobates don’t elicit any of the same wonder as most pdf do. 

The milk and bird poop frogs either.


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## kcexotics (Jul 23, 2012)

The majority of my collection are auratus morphs, some are super shy. There are a few morphs that are as bold and bolder than some of the tinc morphs I keep. I would say my super blues and highlands are as bold as my oyapock and bakhuis. And my bocas del toro auratus are every bit as bold as my P.bicolors. I literally have to push them out of the way when working in their tank. I bought some P.vittatus on a whim at a show thinking they are a Phyllobate so they will be bold, nope... At least in my experience, boldness has been relative to size. 

With the exception of a few, a lot of the obligates and thumbs just don't do anything for me.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Auratus get a bad rap. A lot of the ones people think of as shy are actually nocturnal or close according to a post I read from Ian a long time ago. Boca are the boldest I've seen and el cope. The rest start out shy but come around once adults you just have to be patient.

I found another that I don't understand. Lehmani especially the yellow ones. $1200 for something that looks like a banded leuc is pretty crazy to me. I see a lot of things on fb that seem to be people keeping them for status. Different strokes for different folks though. I enjoy looking at all the different kinds even if I don't understand the hype on some.


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## ajcarroll (Nov 11, 2011)

I retired from teaching this past June and I keep darts in the classroom for years. My students liked species where they could identify and name each frog in the vivarium. Some species look so much alike that they can't distinguish one frog from the next. The second thing they enjoyed is when they could hear the males calling. Hope you have a great school year. Good Luck.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Fun thread. I can ID from memory about 5 - no, make that about 3 - pdfs. But now, there's _not one_ I don't care to stare at for days. I know nothing about their captive behavior. I've seen several species in the wild, in some numbers, and mostly they seem to not give a damn. That charms me, utterly. The subject of this thread frankly confuses me, cause I just think they're ALL SO WONDERFUL. Not that I will ever keep them...just not my cuppa.

But this is the kind of thing that interests me:



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
> If we all liked the same things, many of the frogs in the hobby would disappear.
> This is how I feel about both frogs and breeds of dog.


_I appreciate that you guys get it._ I'm a viper keeper at heart, and have the misfortune of living somewhere that's not legal at the moment. When I asked the regulators about changing this state of affairs, I got responses like "Oh, sorry _no_, how about you get a nice ball python or corn snake instead?" JFC. What's the difference, they're all the same, right? Take your pug duck hunting, he'll do great.

Anyway, as before - I appreciate that you guys get it. Different strokes for different folks, it's all good as long as there's no abuse.


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