# Hydei cultures becoming runny after flies hatch.



## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I tried to search this quite a bit before starting a new thread. I saw some posts that were similar, but I didn't see a whole lot of clear answers. 

First of all, I don't really have any problems producing flies. I culture both hydei and melanogaster. Usually, my cultures produce plenty of flies. The problem I am having is with my hydei cultures. I would just switch to melos, but my bicolors seem to prefer the hydei. 

After the flies hatch in my hydei cultures the media usually becomes very runny. It gets to the point where it will run out of the cup before I can get the flies out. It also will drown a lot of flies on the side.

I have used both Josh's media and Super Fly and have had it happen with both. I am currently using Super Fly mostly though. I follow the directions on the bag using boiling distilled water in clean plastic cups with ventilated lids. When I mix the media it will leave stiff peaks but will flatten out when I tap the cup on the counter. According to the directions that seems to be the desired consistency. 

When I was searching I saw that several people suggested adding less water. However, I am afraid it will be too dry considering the hydei take longer to develop… Especially during the winter. I also saw somebody say the cultures getting runny is the result of the maggots breaking the media down. If that is the case there isn't anything I can do from what I understand. 

Does anybody have a current fix that works? Or should I just get my larger frogs used to taking melos? They will eat them, but the response isn't as eager as when I use hydei. My melo cultures don't seem to have this problem. When I use Super Fly I use it for both types of flies. 

Thanks


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I have no idea if it will help but have you tried co-culturing both species? Maybe with melano maggots working the media early you can get away with less water.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It happens to me too when I spray the cultures. I also advise you to keep them drier.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> It happens to me too when I spray the cultures. I also advise you to keep them drier.


I would understand that if they were very wet to begin with. When I make them the media is a very thick paste. I don't spray them or anything. There isn't any condensation on the sides of the cups. 

When I used less water back when I was still using Josh's media the cultures started to mold. I was told then I wasn't keeping them wet enough. 

That is why I am confused. I am guessing that it has a lot to do with the maggots. It seems like they consume a lot of the media. What is left gets really runny and soupy quickly. The main problem is that I am lucky to get three weeks out of them before I can't get the flies out.


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## Thevein (Dec 3, 2013)

Had this happen as well, and thought maybe less water would work, still actively working on it


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I would try making an extra culture drier to see if it helps,this way if it doesn't work you're only losing the extra culture.The conditions in your house are probably different than the summer so you may have different results.How many flies are you using to start the culture with?Too many flies =too many larvae which may soup up the cultures.You can experiment with that too to see if that makes a difference.If you have access to small crickets the bicolors will eat them up too.I highly recommend not "co-culturing" them.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I have noticed that hidey are also produced by a drier media. I do not know about you, but I do my DIY media rather liquid to avoid spraying later. But the heat of the heat pad makes it more dense later and almost to dry it.
With a very liquid media, especially in summer, I noticed a bad smell.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Someone suggested on this board to use the small paper plates instead of excelsior. Since I've tried that, it has eliminated that problem. Eventually the paper plate soaks up some of the liquid making it a perfect consistency for me.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Thanks for the suggestions. I will experiment with them and see what I come up with.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I wrote above "hidey are also produced by a drier media." Obviously it is not the media that "produces" hidey. Sorry for the mistake.
I wanted to say that sometimes I discover new hidey in cultures with media driest, not many but enough to feed frogs.


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Switch to Bean Beetles! Hydei are a pain in the ass, I'm done with the damn things!  JVK


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

oddlot said:


> I highly recommend not "co-culturing" them.


what problems have you faced doing this?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sometimes I do a quick media with ripe bananas, cut into little pieces, and yeast. I happen to put in fruitflies that escape from the cans and/or that I collect from the shelves, both melanos and hydei. I have not registered any problem. I use these cultures just to feed the frogs, obviously.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I have had this happen when my frog room reached 70% humidity in the summer. The media turned into soup! I reduced the humidity and it solved the problem. It only happened with the Hydei and I believe it's because they produce a lot of waste. 

I do find though that starting them out drier helps. I use paper plates for Melano's. I use Raffia for Hydei, the plates turn to mush and smother the Larvae. With the Raffia, I get huge blooms. 

Best of luck,


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

jkooiman said:


> Switch to Bean Beetles! Hydei are a pain in the ass, I'm done with the damn things!  JVK


I also agree that Bean Beetles are a fantastic feeder and simple to culture. My Bicolors love them! These Beetles are going to save me a fortune lol

I've only been culturing them a couple of months and wish I started 4 years ago! I've drastically cut down on culturing Hydei, but still do some. I don't like all my eggs in one basket.


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## Adam (Nov 8, 2013)

I have had luck with using a lot more excelsior rolled in a ball. The flies seem to have no problem getting past it. It does not control the moisture, it just keeps it from running out. I have the same problem and it suits my needs fine.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## Adam (Nov 8, 2013)

Also, I am having trouble finding some bean beetles to try. Anyone will to ship me some. I would be happy to pay.

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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Try Repashy "superfly" media, and mix it a bit on the dry side ( just a small amount of water less than what is recommended) 

Hydei churn the media very vigorously while there are a lot of maggots in production. Starting with a drier media will help keep it more solid throughout production. 

Bean beetles are good, but cant totally replace hydei- for example, my thumbnails love hydei but wont touch bean beetles


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

frogfreak said:


> I also agree that Bean Beetles are a fantastic feeder and simple to culture. My Bicolors love them! These Beetles are going to save me a fortune lol
> 
> I've only been culturing them a couple of months and wish I started 4 years ago! I've drastically cut down on culturing Hydei, but still do some. I don't like all my eggs in one basket.


I'm sure I'll pick up a hydei culture or two the next time I go to a show or make an order etc. It's nice to have the variety, but they are pretty unforgiving. My last cultures went extinct about 6 months ago (they had humongous globular mites in them.( Are there other species of mites that invade cultures other than the white little grain mites?)

The bean beetles are an "ultimate organism" (like "Alien" ha,ha). I'm pleased the frogs like them at all, really a too-good-to-be true sort of scenario, considering the absolute ease of their cultivation.

A downside though, they are big-time "drowners", just an FYI to people that keep little treefrogs, other semi-aquatic species, or have water features etc. They curl into a defensive playdead posture when you tap them out of the cup, and inevitably roll right into the water.  Thanks, JVK


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Try 1/3 cup media to 3/4 cup water.. Go out and buy some Agar Agar and add to your existing media, it will help with the "over" moisture issue..


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You shouldn't need agar.
Just mix your media on the drier side and you'll be fine


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I would advise not to use Bean Beetles as a main source of feeders.
From what I understand, a diet of mostly beetles has a higher risk of impaction due to the exo skeleton.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Any evidence? Darts eat a lot of fairly crunchy critters in the wild(ants for tinctorius) so I don't think BB's would cause a problem. Several members feed mostly these with great success.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I like culturing bean beetles as they are really easy. However, most of my frogs are small and won't eat them. My bicolors don't really get too excited over them either. They will eat them, but they go after hydei much more aggressively. If I had to put their preferred food items in order it would probably be: 1. small crickets 2. hydei 3. melos 4. been beetles. 

My wife also really doesn't like the beetles. For whatever reason, she notices many more of them walking around than anything else. I haven't fed them in quite awhile, but I am still find stragglers that either got out of the tank or found some loose beans somewhere. I hope it's not the latter. I try to keep my frog area fairly clean.


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## bradlyb (Jul 22, 2013)

gturmindright said:


> Someone suggested on this board to use the small paper plates instead of excelsior. Since I've tried that, it has eliminated that problem. Eventually the paper plate soaks up some of the liquid making it a perfect consistency for me.


I use coffee filters and get the same effect.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I use coffee filters too. I'll never go back to excelsior


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

It has been awhile since I have used coffee filters. I may give those a try again.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Dendrobait said:


> what problems have you faced doing this?



Hi Joseph,you pm'd me to answer your question,so here are just a couple of reasons why it's not a good Idea to mix cultures.

I haven't and won't do this for a bunch of reasons.
It would make sense that the melo maggots will eat most of the proteins leaving less nutrition for the hydei by the time they hatch.That and you would have to have a lot of media in the cup to sustain both which by the time the hydei get their turn,the media would be stinking and mushy which is the whole problem the op is having.I can't imagine that it would be a healthier culture than if you had two separate cultures.Bottom line if you get the cultures to perform properly there would be no reason to do them in one culture,plus if the culture crashes,then that's two dead cultures for the price of one.Twice the chance of mite probems and this is just a couple of reasons off the top of my head.If it works for you that is great,but I still don't recommend it.It may work for you ,but probably not for someone having issues getting their cultures right to begin with.no sense in losing all your cultures trying to do something "different",Also how do you separate them if you're feeding escudo or smaller frogs which won't eat hydei but only melanos.Either way if it works for you then that's great,I personally will never do it and wouldn't recommend it to anyone when it's easy enough to do separately.I hope this helps you to understand why I wouldn't do it,but if it's what you do and it work then go at it.

Lou


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Lou,

I see your point. A few things(dunno if maybe we should split this off to a seperate thread)

I feel that if the melanos are in the media early they keep the media moving to help lessen the chances of mold/mites taking over. I could be totally wrong.

I don't put a ton of melanos in. While they do boom first the hydei tend to dominate the productive life of the culture. Its kind of like succession. 

I keep melano only cultures for my small frogs. 

As you say, do what works for you. So far it has worked for me. I can't say whether it would solve this or any problem but I feel it is worth trying.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'm going to jump in with another vote FOR the mixed species cultures. It's basically kept me from having this exact issue (will address this in a second post). First some general thoughts:

- I also notice that I always have to change water amounts in my cultures no matter what with the seasons. The excelsior I use is the stuff from Fly Meat, which is thick strips that are pretty long rather than the tiny little strings of most of the bulk stuff - if I use the cheap stuff it doesn't absorb enough moisture while the stuff from Fly Meat does. It has a similar effect to a paper plate that was already mentioned. The more variable your seasons the more you tweek!

- Also, Herpetologic runs their cultures a bit on the dry side for this reason as well, and leave the cultures until the first harvest. At this point the culture should have been mixed up nicely but still on the dry side, and every time the culture is harvested (3x a week) it would get a spritz - just one from a heavy duty sprayer. This added just enough gradual moisture to keep it from getting dry, and since it was a vinegar mix it also took care of the mold. I now do this to each culture before I put it back on the shelf. If I do a bigger spritz less often I always jack up the culture, UGH!

- Dendrobatids are myrmecophagous (ant specialists) so it's hard for me to ever believe these guys will get impacted from a high chitin diet. Yes, it's a real issue with many reptiles and amphibians, but not really in this group. My main vote against bean beetles is their nutritional value, and they should be supplemented with other stuff. I can't dust those things worth a damn, but they are a valuable food in a varied diet. They are hard to find because they are a highly controlled pest species so they shouldn't be crossing state lines. I also love drugstore beetles (smaller, but just as easy) - but they have the same issues with the law. Roach nymphs (limited to a food bowl) and houseflies are a couple of other good candidates for Bicolor, and they also love to chase down the Lesser Waxworm Moths (pretty handy since I tend to destroy cultures getting the worms out!). Small crickets end up being my staple because I feel like I get better bang for my buck than with hydei.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Oddlot, I think you're thinking of "mixing" in a different way than what was intended. Mix cultures have been done for a long time (I've been doing them 10 years, and I'm far from the original person to come up with this) and they are NOT an equal mixing of both species in one container. Most of your points are right if that is what people are thinking, but what Dendrobait describes is what was actually meant. Never put all your eggs in one basket!

A mixed culture is basically a Hydei culture, but with a dash of melano. It is not a significant source of melano, and will not replace the need for melano cultures... in fact to keep them continuing it is required you have straight melanos as well. It is purely a technique to help deal with some of the issues with Hydei cultures related to their longer generation time. The melano larvae keep the top of the media active (reducing mold issues) and more hospitable for the Hydei larvae. They shouldn't be in large enough numbers to directly compete. If you feed them out correctly, you will actually minimize a lot of the mixing too.

Some tips for those wanting to try it:

- Set up your hydei culture as normal, preferably a little on the dry side. And in a small dash of melano (preferably a high producer like flightless/gliders so there are less flies needed) after you add in the melano, then treat as normal for they hydei.
- After the melano boom, harvest out every fly from the culture and feed them out. This should minimize the amount of breeding for the melano, and the hydei left have already reproduced. This will help make your hydei boom almost completely hydei.
- wait for the hydei to boom, then make new cultures! There is some delay in the timing of when the sexes come out, so mix a culture that just started booming with one at least 3 days older if you can for a nice mix of sexes - or make sure the culture you make new cultures with has been booming at least 4 days (I tend to have to feed out a little bit just to keep the culture from crashing). Add in flightless/glider melanos from a melano-only culture, and you're ready for the next round! 
- after making new cultures, feed all those suckers out! Keep it around as long as there is food in there... with planning and tweeking I can often get a second, smaller boom of hydei.

IME mixed cultures don't change anything with mites... don't keep them reduced or getting twice as much because you have twice the flies. Mites are just a fact of FF keeping and I start with clean cultures and work to keep them that way. I'm a bit OCD about it, but then again I'm allergic to them so maybe that's a good reason


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Kerokero: On the bean beetles-i find they hold dust quite well-at least as well as flies(using Repashy cal-plus). One member here uses them for a large part of the diet of a collection of mostly tincs with success. They are a PITA to harvest and use as they are great escape artists and run all over/stick to everything when you try to get them out of the containers. I am thinking of a system(window screened large jar with piece of tissue) that will allow them to be free of dead beetles and beandust after you harvest them out.

Your post on mixed cultures is spot on in my limited experience. My original mix cultures were the opposite-mostly turkish gliders with a dash of hydei(I got hydei as a freebee at NARBC Anaheim off a vendor table as one of those tiny vials). The hydei did ok with the turks but you had to somehow seperate them from a bunch of turks to start new cultures with that would have enough hydei to continue a population. I did this by feeding out all the turks before the hydei boomed, once you saw large larvae and pupae on the sides you new it was time. I kept the starter vial of hydei and kept dosing my cultures with it until I finally had enough hydei to make mostly hydei cultures. As you mentioned they boom at different times so it is easy to harvest out most of the melanos or hydei depending on what you need at the time.

I have made some changes(dusting FF's with calcium powder before transfer, keeping cultures on diatomaceous earth) but i will note that for the first time recently I had a hydei mix culture eat the media up completely without noticeable mites.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It may have been a bit of laziness on my part since they weren't as easy to dust for the reasons you mentioned. Loved them though... need to work with them again. I added toilet paper cardboard tubes to the cultures and pulled that out with the live beetles to harvest them, smacking them into a FF container with a funnel on top to keep them in. Slow and steady movement was just so appetizing to the frogs!

Mites will be the death of me, but good habits keep you sane


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