# What's with the shipping of tadpoles?



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I've been seeing a sudden burst in people trying to sell/ship tadpoles lately, from online stores to classified ads. This was attempted rather early on in the hobby and it was realized that they don't generally weather the shipping process very well and can be pretty fragile (which is why you don't see it happen all that often).

What's with the resurgence: are people just trying to squeeze every last dollar they can out of their frogs?


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> I've been seeing a sudden burst in people trying to sell/ship tadpoles lately, from online stores to classified ads. This was attempted rather early on in the hobby and it was realized that they don't generally weather the shipping process very well and can be pretty fragile (which is why you don't see it happen all that often).
> 
> What's with the resurgence: are people just trying to squeeze every last dollar they can out of their frogs?


could be also due to increased success rates, as well. I guess the most telling point on this is if they are offering live arrival guarantees on them


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/95713-tadpoles-sale.html

This was a fairly recent thread. I find it interesting that one of the main supporters of the buying and selling of tadpoles, sold his collection.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Why is that interesting?



srrrio said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/95713-tadpoles-sale.html
> 
> This was a fairly recent thread. I find it interesting that one of the main supporters of the buying and selling of tadpoles, sold his collection.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> I've been seeing a sudden burst in people trying to sell/ship tadpoles lately, from online stores to classified ads. This was attempted rather early on in the hobby and it was realized that they don't generally weather the shipping process very well and can be pretty fragile (which is why you don't see it happen all that often).
> 
> What's with the resurgence: are people just trying to squeeze every last dollar they can out of their frogs?


While we've never sold any tads but we have shipped them several times, for free, to schools. Our reason was very different than the classified reasons, but ours all shipped very very well. I can't comment on past experiences, but I feel that today we can ship tads safely. 

I don't know if selling tads is appropriate or not. It's not something we will be doing as we put great value on the importance of the first couple of months out of the water.

Brad


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ron i'm in Blighty,we don't see much shipping here at all,so leaving that aside I just think if you are seeing more tads for sale and we seem to be here too,then I think it is simply economics that is driving this,folks have less to spend here and over there with you guys,so folks look for cheeper options to get what they want. 

For me I'm not a fan of selling tads or tiny froglets for that matter. 

I guess I have two main reasons:
First,erm I really like messing about with baby amphibians,watching that little blob of jelly hatch with a tail start swimming about grow legs get colour and turn into this beautiful tiny replicate of it's parent is beyond amazing. This little miracle,is something that drew us to this,I guess I'm just plain selfish and want to watch each one. 

The second,i'm always wary when someone wants an animal for cheep,I will always wonder if that will be carried over into care and love and their personal valuation of an animal. I've mentioned it here before I got burned in my late teens,I sold some livestock real cheep to a lady,too cheep,my stunning ducks were dead in 24 hours,if I had of charged here full price,would she have bothered to shut them up at night,hmm bet she would. So my personal circumstance are a big factor in forming this point of view.



I read a fair bit of the other thread,some of the guys there I have huge respect for,I'm not up for judging anyone,look hard and the word money is mentioned in almost every post relating to tads being sold. Folks say they can build a collection faster this way get frogs they can't afford quicker,sure they can,it's true But is this actually a good thing. We don't have lots of spare cash,we save and go without other things to get new frogs,but when we get them they mean so much to us,ok we are bloody obsessed anyway,but it's a real big deal. Maybe something gets lost with the cheep option? Maybe I'm just old and out of fashion,but it's kinda cool building a collection slowly,one avoids some pitfalls and one has a real good idea when a new frog arrives what it needs ,because it has taken so long to get there.

As above some of those guys in the other thread I have huge respect for I'm sure they'll do right by the tads and sure if they were selling they would pack well pass on info and all the usual givens we all aspire too. I just have this nagging doubt about selling very young phibs,or even giving them to folks,that mortality will be higher than the more excepted standard of a 4 month ootw froglet. If some one is having a hard time,I'd much rather give then some stock,4 months plus ootw,big and strong capable of handling a move,than little tads.
This is my point of view,i'm not saying selling tads is wrong,but it's not for me, big strong froglets are what floats my boat,I don't think any one will change this,which is kind of strange for me ,because I'm so open to others thoughts normally,their points of view make me think,cross examine myself,bla bla,but here I'm stuck.

Tell ya what guys give me a reason to sell tadpoles,leave out giving stuff away and shipping,but don't use the word money as a reason,tell me what the other benefits are I just can't see them myself,maybe I've missed them?

best

Stu


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

srrrio said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/95713-tadpoles-sale.html
> 
> This was a fairly recent thread. I find it interesting that one of the main supporters of the buying and selling of tadpoles, sold his collection.


I hope you are not referring to pdfCrazy having to leave the hobby for a completely unconnected reason.


pdfCrazy said:


> Unfortunatly, circumstances in my life are forcing me to part with my collection rather suddenly.


Chris's personal life and circumstances have absolutely NOTHING to do with purchasing or selling tadpoles. I know Chris (pdfCrazy) personally and I request you don't drag his circumstances into this. Leave him be.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Actually Stu just said much more gracefully what I had in mind, if I was not at work and had more time and... and could write better.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> What's with the resurgence: are people just trying to squeeze every last dollar they can out of their frogs?


That seems to be the motivation from my perspective. Either that, or newbies get some pairs that start churning out clutches, and they don't consider the ramifications of being overwhelmed with larvae/froglets. It really only serves to undercut people that want to do things the conscientious way.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Quoting Chuck Powell from the above linked thread 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/95713-tadpoles-sale-2.html#post844883 



chuckpowell said:


> Something else you all should consider. Selling eggs is much easier and much less costly to ship (and usually to buy) than tadpoles or frogs and the results are the same for the buyer after some months. Details need to be worked out between the selling and buyer probably more than usual, but I've done it a number of times without a problem.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Quoting Chuck Powell from the above linked thread
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/95713-tadpoles-sale-2.html#post844883


I have no problem with Chuck selling/trading his animals in any way he sees fit, but most hobbyists are NOT Chuck, and do not have even a tenth of his experience. Someone with less concern for their breeders would look at this as an endorsement to start pulling every clutch, and encouraging constant breeding activity to get more eggs, and more fast cash. Sure it will likely result in depleted vitamin reserves, and ultimately a shorter lifespan, but who cares about that? Right?


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

If I have a large number of tads and if I anticipate it will be difficult to properly care for them when they morph (ie springtail supply, limited space, etc) I've shipped tads and considered it a responsible thing to do for their welfare, given limited resources. 

To me it almost seems safer to ship tads because of the insulation the water provides. It provides a shock absorption from bouncing around and added protection from temperature fluctuations.

But I do understand the risk of overbreeding primarily for the money by individuals seeking to exploit their frogs


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

In the past.....I/ve had MANY more tads than I anticipated being able to sell as froglets of a particular species. Its much easier to sell tads for 1/3 the price, than froglets. Additionally, having stock of HUNDREDs of tads at once is just sitting on cash. Yes....value is worth more when they are out of the water, but when you are a rapidly expanding bussiness, the cash in hand can be worth more that minute, than waiting 3-6 months down the road. Persoanlly, I can give references of over a dozen people who purchased tads from me, soem recieving as many as 40 tads at once, and I have not lost a SINGLE one (that I was informed of). I see nothing wrong whatsoever with shipping dart frogs at the tadpole stage, other than some people do not like the competition of cheaper prices and being undercut.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

And this is a business view of a 'hobby.' I rarely engage my hobbies with such a mindset.

I don't buy a fly rod trying to figure out how many fish I need to catch before I make my money back on it.

I don't purchase aquarium filters wondering how much I can sell them used a year from now in order to buy the next new filter model to hit the market from Germany.

My hobby is not a business, and this hobby is becoming a venture where every practitioner considers themselves as mini businesses. It affects the way people relate to one another, share info (or don't share info). 

The hobby is already reaching an oversaturation point with the frogs represented and available: pushing every tadpole that a frog can lay into the 'market' isn't good for the frogs or the people involved--we don't have the numbers to support or take care of every possible result of a little amphibian's fecundity.

I would hate to see this "hobby" (I guess it's probably best referred to as a trade now since everyone sees themselves as a frog business) go the way of corn snakes or ball pythons or crested geckos...but it seems only a matter of time before the first "Lime Crush" auratus is offered for sale the way things are going.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> it seems only a matter of time before the first "Lime Crush" auratus is offered for sale the way things are going.


Or "Aurora" coblats ....


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> And this is a business view of a 'hobby.' I rarely engage my hobbies with such a mindset.
> 
> I don't buy a fly rod trying to figure out how many fish I need to catch before I make my money back on it.
> 
> ...


Sadly a new site as of last week (?) already had the "Lime Crush" concept down pat. 

The question for most should be: Do you want to be a frog keeper or a frog breeder? I think most people would answer breeder. 

Once in a great while we have someone come to us looking for a couple females or a couple of males because they want to be a frog keeper and don't want to deal with froglets. This is very rare. Most people want sexed pairs or a sexed frog to match up with what they already have. 

It's inevitable that you will get some breeding and even a surprise froglet. That doesn't mean that every clutch of eggs has to be pulled. 

Breeder or keeper? Isn't that the question? 


Brad


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

I consider myself both a keeper AND breeder...but a breeder in the sense that I am able to create a captive ecosystem and conditions in such a way that the frogs exhibit normal/natural behavior, part of which is breeding. This doesn't mean puppy mill style production, but regular (not necessarily constant) reproduction. 

Again, the fact that we associate the term "frog breeder" with "cranking out lots of animals for sale" equates to a business-influenced mindset and understanding of the hobby. I consider myself a breeder, but you only need one hand to count the number of times a year I offer frogs for sale here in the classifieds or at shows.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i understand your point but i dont agree. why does selling a tadpole equal business? buying or purchasing a tadpole is a means to obtain a more expensive frog at a lower cost. either producing a tadpole or buying a tadpole and rasing it up is the same thing. its a hobby right? so raising your own tadpoles or someone elses doesn't equal business. now i dont agree with saturating the market with a ton of tadpoles but i dont see any harm in selling a few once in a while. just my opinion.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> I would hate to see this "hobby" (I guess it's probably best referred to as a trade now since everyone sees themselves as a frog business) go the way of corn snakes or ball pythons or crested geckos...but it seems only a matter of time before the first "Lime Crush" auratus is offered for sale the way things are going.


I'm the same way with my hobbies. I get into them to relax and escape such concerns. But to each his own, and it's hardly like tadpole selling is the most obvious example of it


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Dendrobati said:


> Sadly a new site as of last week (?) already had the "Lime Crush" concept down pat.
> 
> The question for most should be: Do you want to be a frog keeper or a frog breeder? I think most people would answer breeder.
> 
> ...


maybe I'm missing some obvious distinction here, but I find such criticism from someone running a business breeding frogs to come off as pretty weak. I know on this board that observation will inevitably unleash the clannish mentality that is so pervasive in this hobby. But the fact is, what is deemed ok and permissible seems more based on who is doing it, as opposed to what they are doing


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

whitethumb said:


> i understand your point but i dont agree. why does selling a tadpole equal business? buying or purchasing a tadpole is a means to obtain a more expensive frog at a lower cost. either producing a tadpole or buying a tadpole and rasing it up is the same thing. its a hobby right? so raising your own tadpoles or someone elses doesn't equal business. now i dont agree with saturating the market with a ton of tadpoles but i dont see any harm in selling a few once in a while. just my opinion.


I have no problem with people obtaining tadpoles from other hobbyists: I have received many tadpoles from mentors/peers in this hobby over the years as ways to try my hand at various species. But the simple acquisition of tadpoles was not the focus of my original post--my concern is that more and more online vendors and hobbyists seem to be selling tadpoles individually and shipping them. From what I can see, it seems to be about squeezing as much monetary product out of each animal as possible rather than (especially if you are shipping the vast majority of your animals over long distances) raising them to suitable sizes first. 

On a similar note, I'm a little astounded by the number of tiny/immature frogs I've seen for sale more frequently at frog shows over the last couple of years (even animals I would say emerged just a week or two before). As I said before, it's becoming more and more about viewing these animals as product to be moved (cool product, yes...but product nonetheless) rather than animals around which a hobby has developed.

Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with selling frogs or trying to earn a livelihood from the selling of them. However, I do think there are some basic standards and that the animals should be treated humanely and with the utmost amount of care and responsible husbandry each step of the way in their development. If you are keeping your animals in such a way that you are constantly overwhelmed with a massive flux of offspring, that says to me your husbandry skills (and ability to manage your collection responsibly) are lacking, and I am much less likely to want to obtain animals from you. And yes, being occasionally overrun by animals can happen if there are some unexpected breeding spurts...but there is a difference between that and making it a regular part of your business model as a "hobbyist."


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Splash&Dash said:


> maybe I'm missing some obvious distinction here, but I find such criticism from someone running a business breeding frogs to come off as pretty weak. I know on this board that observation will inevitably unleash the clannish mentality that is so pervasive in this hobby. But the fact is, what is deemed ok and permissible seems more based on who is doing it, as opposed to what they are doing


I'm sorry for not being very clear. My comments where not intended as criticism, except for maybe the lime crush part.  My point was only that most people wish to breed their frogs.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> I have no problem with people obtaining tadpoles from other hobbyists: I have received many tadpoles from mentors/peers in this hobby over the years as ways to try my hand at various species. But the simple acquisition of tadpoles was not the focus of my original post--my concern is that more and more online vendors and hobbyists seem to be selling tadpoles individually and shipping them. From what I can see, it seems to be about squeezing as much monetary product out of each animal as possible rather than (especially if you are shipping the vast majority of your animals over long distances) raising them to suitable sizes first.
> 
> On a similar note, I'm a little astounded by the number of tiny/immature frogs I've seen for sale more frequently at frog shows over the last couple of years (even animals I would say emerged just a week or two before). As I said before, it's becoming more and more about viewing these animals as product to be moved (cool product, yes...but product nonetheless) rather than animals around which a hobby has developed.
> 
> Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with selling frogs or trying to earn a livelihood from the selling of them. However, I do think there are some basic standards and that the animals should be treated humanely and with the utmost amount of care and responsible husbandry each step of the way in their development. If you are keeping your animals in such a way that you are constantly overwhelmed with a massive flux of offspring, that says to me your husbandry skills (and ability to manage your collection responsibly) are lacking, and I am much less likely to want to obtain animals from you. And yes, being occasionally overrun by animals can happen if there are some unexpected breeding spurts...but there is a difference between that and making it a regular part of your business model as a "hobbyist."


 Can you crystallize thoughts on this in a few sentences? I'm having a hard time following you and I want to understand your perspective. Are you saying that saying that selling tadpoles is more profitable then selling froglets? And if so, that is wrong because...


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

I think its different Strokes for different folks & simple supply & demand dictating Tad sales & shipping.. Sorry if I go off topic a little but I think its all relative... I have a few Ranitomeya producing & some Tincs producing very healthy Tadpoles in large numbers consistently.. I am able to manage my 40-50 tads by feeding properly & Changing waters adequately. *From the Tad sellers perspective,* I think some people are probably overwhelmed by their number of tads & need to move them as another member stated. You are essentially letting go of the future frog at a lower price by selling a tad, so it could be a workload/Space issue in most cases.. The main thing about shipping tads that has to be understood is that they need air in the container chosen. Ive had someone getting out of frogs throw in a bunch of free Bene tads with an adult trio I purchased from him & because he didnt create a big enough pocket of air in the bags he chose some of the tads in the deflated bags didnt make it. What Ed mentioned about shipping eggs is very interesting to me..I wonder how difficult it is to package them to ship safely? Sure there are probably people with the motive to just to make a quick buck all be it less then selling a frog, but I think the people that are in the hobby as a side business or supplemental income 1st that dont have passion & love it first are doomed to fail or become overwhelmed. It takes a special kind of person to make dozens of cultures on a sunday night when youre exhausted, Feed over a hundred frogs properly & do everything the right way without cutting corners because you want the healthiest frogs possible for yourself & your potential customers..*From the Tad Buyers perspective*(I only bring up this perspective as there has to be a demand for them on some level for sellers to supply them & risk shipping them). 1st id say some people just want a deal & are patient enough to grow out tads for the species they want(I can relate to this because Im the type of guy that will always look for a deal if one is out there), 2nd perhaps they crave excitement of morphing their own frog, which they couldnt do otherwise if they dont have producing frogs(ive had guys ask me for tads just to watch them morph)... Or the most logical reason, in this economy Ive noticed some people just cant afford to buy a 3 mos old Juvi group of the average priced dart so they elect to take advantage of the lower price of tads whenever they see the type they want offered.. I personally dont sell tads because as of now I can manage my workload & have no problem growing out all of the froglets to safe size & selling them to responsible hobbyists that share my passion for Herp keeping... I dont really judge what people do as long as they take proper care of the animals they choose to work with..


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Hi again Ron,I don't think we'll go down the road of lime crush aurartus myself,hmm gotta say they do sound kinda nice though I just see too many folks passionate about keeping morphs pure,or at least trying their best to do so. even as laid back as well are over here we still try to discourage mixing morphs and all that malarky with some passion.

Our problems possibly lie more in the area of making new guys aware of what a pair of frogs can actually produce,when it goes right. Ron we are what 2 1/2 years in closing 3,so I remember my first tad like it was yesterday. We probably did as much prior learning as possible,for us,maybe 18months-2years. I'm trying to illustrate a point bare with me,not saying everyone should be so slow. In all that time my focus was on things that make up the care side of the frogs we so desparately wanted to keep,but some things got overlooked. All the expected stuff water food erm food and food,plants viv design lighting breeding tad water teas bla bla .Not at any stage did I contemplate all of a clutch hatching out and all of a clutch being reared,our figures would stand at a ballpark high 90% success rate I suppose. I honestly thought 50% would be an amazing achievement.So what I'm trying to get over is new guys even ones that do try and go to some lengths to be well prepared might not be gaining ,or better being made aware enough of what happens when one sets all the eggs. Maybe there is room for better education here. That said I think I see much more talk of this now than I did then,maybe it's just,i've started to explore more details of the hobby now,because I have some semblance of my frog care being ok. Terms like hobby burnout came to me from friends,I've been blessed with so much help from experienced guys,I'll not tire of thanking them.

I/We had a pretty clear approach for us mapped out,and so with help aswell we have avoided many problems like over breeding. Last year we set suberblue eggs on one day,from those two clutches came 16(or so) big strong frogs,does a new guy realise that that could happen almost weekly? Do they realise how hard it is to stop some frogs laying and how important that is for the frogs to have a rest?
We have fantastic suppliments more knowledge of vit A constant steps forward in our husbandry, better viv designs,lighting advancements all of which lead to greater potential of success in breeding. The next new guy comes along worrying about humidity growing food,the simple stuff,has some luck and sets some eggs,suddenly he has 100tads,OMG what now. It is terribly important we ,the hobby get to him before he gets to that point. I know all you guys that have done this for ages know all this,but just maybe the newer folks don't get this info in strong enough doses,hell its not what I was looking for. I just wanted my little frogs to stay alive,maybe next year do some breeding,but it all can happen very quick.I think most other new guys do too.I don't see it as a blame issue,but hell maybe it gets overlooked.

To bring this back to topic,I think this might be one reason why we see more tads available,ha ha tis a complex thing this dart malarky,getting it all down before one has a frog breeding is not the easiest thing to achieve.

With that he mouched off to see a tiny tiny red and blue red frog beach froglet and wonder how something soooo small survives in the wild,painted red and blue,yup just like an escudo only transient,oh man just found another.

Don't it make ya stop ya jaw drop in awe an wonder all this,ain't we the lucky ones,no one will ever design this stuff,mum nature gave us it all

seeya

Stu


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## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

Stu,
I wish there were more keepers like you two.
It's always a pleasure reading your posts.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Dendrobati said:


> I'm sorry for not being very clear. My comments where not intended as criticism, except for maybe the lime crush part.  My point was only that most people wish to breed their frogs.


fair enough. At first reading I thought you were criticizing people for selling their offspring for a profit.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Trickishleaf said:


> Stu,
> I wish there were more keepers like you two.
> It's always a pleasure reading your posts.


Ha thanks Jeff,me I just wish I could keep up and had some ability with my county's language.My apologies if my posts are oft out of context,some of us struggle with letters so a long post take me a long time to write. I've just re written "ability" 5 times until no red line says it's wrong,LMAO

I'll say thanks with this:it makes my point of why we just want to be selfish and get 'em big and strong before they find a new home. It also shows just why we find this so captivating,so bewildering.We didn't know this was coming i'm sure there are younger tads,but this and it's sibling weren't expected today








yeah I know not a tad,but near as dammit,some eyecandy,
take care

Stu


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> Can you crystallize thoughts on this in a few sentences? I'm having a hard time following you and I want to understand your perspective. Are you saying that saying that selling tadpoles is more profitable then selling froglets? And if so, that is wrong because...


Not *more* profitable (as an either/or issue), just being used to further increase profit as much as possible...even if by relative nickles and dimes. 

As I said, in and of itself it may not be a big deal if someone occasionally sells some tadpoles to someone. But what I see is that it is becoming a *cultural norm* within the hobby itself in the sense that every aspect of a frog's life cycle is up for sale if someone is willing to pay money for it.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

*skylsdale*, I'm sorry the response I'm about to give comes across as being difficult. Please believe me when I say that I only seek to understand your perspective, as I believe many agree with you but I still don't understand why. I'm newer to the frog hobby, please take that into consideration. 



skylsdale said:


> Not *more* profitable (as an either/or issue), just being used to further increase profit as much as possible...even if by relative nickles and dimes.


 This sentence seems like it contradicts itself. What is the difference in your mind between being more profitable and increasing profit? From what I'm gathering here is that selling tads is slightly more profitable then selling frogs.



skylsdale said:


> As I said, in and of itself it may not be a big deal if someone occasionally sells some tadpoles to someone. But what I see is that it is becoming a *cultural norm* within the hobby itself in the sense that every aspect of a frog's life cycle is up for sale if someone is willing to pay money for it.


 So I think what you are trying to tell me here is that it's ok to sell tads occasionally, but should not be done regularly. Is that right? If I do understand you correctly, then please tell me why that is? Is it just sacrosanct?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Tincman said:


> *From the Tad sellers perspective,* I think some people are probably overwhelmed by their number of tads & need to move them as another member stated.


Which is, IMHO, irresponsible breeding. Since when has it been a requirement to pull every single egg and raise it? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I probably dispose of 80-90% of my eggs produced during breeding season and am _very_ selective about what I raise. Not being overwhelmed or saturating the market is responsible breeding. I _could_ produce thousands of tads/froglets annually and choose not to, because it's the "right thing to do" IMO. Saturating the market hurts other keepers and breeders. Especially, registered business's who we all should be supporting, not competing with, by undercutting their prices. 

I'm not saying a few buddies don't get free tads. But, I will never sell them. 

Getting those froglets to the 4 month mark (Pums excluded, which I don't keep) There's a _huge_ difference in visible strength, boldness and eating behavior between a 2 month old froglet compared to a 4 month old froglet. A 2 month old froglet is likely to disappear on a new keeper and will cause them stress. An older froglet will be more likely acclimate much quicker. 

I want to help the new keeper get off on the right foot, not cause them stress and anxiety. Imagine being new, buying tads and have them not morph out. No thanks....

To add to this, who hasn't mislabeled a tad container? I have...Would the new keeper be able to identify if they had an Azureus or New river? 

Another reason not to sell tads...


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> Which is, IMHO, irresponsible breeding. Since when has it been a requirement to pull every single egg and raise it? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I probably dispose of 80-90% of my eggs produced during breeding season and am _very_ selective about what I raise. Not being overwhelmed or saturating the market is responsible breeding. I _could_ produce thousands of tads/froglets annually and choose not to, because it's the "right thing to do" IMO. Saturating the market hurts other keepers and breeders. Especially, registered business's who we all should be supporting, not competing with, by undercutting their prices.


I don't even breed my frogs for the simple fact it's a hassle I don't want to deal with and there already seems way too many breeders around. But why should I support someone simply based on the fact they are a registered business?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Splash&Dash said:


> I don't even breed my frogs for the simple fact it's a hassle I don't want to deal with and there already seems way too many breeders around. But why should I support someone simply based on the fact they are a registered business?


Hey,

I will always support the established business's such as UE, etc. They are the "rock" we all depend on for frogs and supplies. Without them we'd be screwed...Not to mention, some are doing conservation work. 

I don't want to hijack this thread though.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> Hey,
> 
> I will always support the established business's such as UE, etc.


UE deserves support for how they operate, not because they have a certain tax designation. And the fact someone is operating as a registered business in no way guarantees they will operate in a similar manner (just look at Pelch)


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

frogfreak said:


> Especially, registered business's who we all should be supporting, not competing with, by undercutting their prices.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of what you wrote frogfreak & I actually dont sell tads either, but thats just my own preference. I also get my frogs over the 3 mos oow range before listing any for sale because I care about the animals & want them & the new hobbyist to have the best success rate possible. ​However, its not black & white when you say _"we all should support registered businesses & not undercut them"_. I think it would be very difficult for me to look at my neighbor (or anyone for that matter) on a tight budget with a family to take care of & tell them to go buy a group of 4 frogs for $200 online from one of the vendors when a very capable private hobbyist with a good reputation/positive feedback has them the same age size & health at 4 for $100 & hes close enough that shipping is not required in some cases. Everything is subjective. There are a bunch of great reputable froggers on here that I trust that are registered businesses just as there are a bunch of solid actual businesses I trust as well... Its a nice competitive balance. At times I will support the vendors I have grown to like & trust over the past decade when I need something only they have. I can afford to do so & those few guys ship to me for what I think is a fair price for the products & have always treated me right. Im always careful not to say "we all" because everyone is different & has their own prerogative & needs. Also, I have noticed that the added benefit of a balance of Private breeder hobbyists & Large scale vendors is that this _"undercutting"_ you mentioned in actuality keeps the vendors honest & the only reason private breeders price so low is because they wouldnt sell frogs otherwise.. I have seen many of the big frog vendors selling at much lower prices now & offering great sales because of the bad economy, but also the Private breeders posting in online classifieds & social networking putting new hobbyists in touch with private breeders also makes some of the big vendors lower prices to compete, which is the American way. Monopolies are bad in all things, even when it comes to frogs. Balance is always best. Just my 2 cents


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Tincman said:


> I agree with most of what you wrote frogfreak & I actually dont sell tads either, but thats just my own preference. I also get my frogs over the 3 mos oow range before listing any for sale because I care about the animals & want them & the new hobbyist to have the best success rate possible. ​However, its not black & white when you say _"we all should support registered businesses & not undercut them"_. I think it would be very difficult for me to look at my neighbor (or anyone for that matter) on a tight budget with a family to take care of & tell them to go buy a group of 4 frogs for $200 online from one of the vendors when a very capable private hobbyist with a good reputation/positive feedback has them the same age size & health at 4 for $100 & hes close enough that shipping is not required in some cases. Everything is subjective. There are a bunch of great reputable froggers on here that I trust that are registered businesses just as there are a bunch of solid actual businesses I trust as well... Its a nice competitive balance. At times I will support the vendors I have grown to like & trust over the past decade when I need something only they have. I can afford to do so & those few guys ship to me for what I think is a fair price for the products & have always treated me right. Im always careful not to say "we all" because everyone is different & has their own prerogative & needs. Also, I have noticed that the added benefit of a balance of Private breeder hobbyists & Large scale vendors is that this _"undercutting"_ you mentioned in actuality keeps the vendors honest & the only reason private breeders price so low is because they wouldnt sell frogs otherwise.. I have seen many of the big frog vendors selling at much lower prices now & offering great sales because of the bad economy, but also the Private breeders posting in online classifieds & social networking putting new hobbyists in touch with private breeders also makes some of the big vendors lower prices to compete, which is the American way. Monopolies are bad in all things, even when it comes to frogs. Balance is always best. Just my 2 cents


Good points.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Splash&Dash said:


> UE deserves support for how they operate, not because they have a certain tax designation. And the fact someone is operating as a registered business in no way guarantees they will operate in a similar manner (just look at Pelch)


Great, now all frog & supply vendors have a black eye?


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Dane said:


> Great, now all frog & supply vendors have a black eye?


Nothing I wrote even comes close to suggesting this. What I clearly wrote was that tax status isn't some guarantee on how people conduct themselves and their business. And to balance out the example of a great business like EU (a frog and supply vendor that directly contradicts your reading) I cite one with very poor practices


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I saw mentioned years ago people would trade/sell tads to eachother. There was also less people in the hobby and also no forum access for many to use.

No we see people post publicly, plus the increase in hobbiests....is there more of a percentage of people selling tadpoles now then there used to be....or is it just a higher number in proportion to the number of hobbiests and also more in your face due to the forums?


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## IndustrialDreamz (Jul 15, 2013)

Good Morning guys!

Personally as new as to this hobby as I am, I am still getting the enclosure process down (to be frog safe, and as comfortable for them as possible). I plan on getting a couple of Tads when I learn enough of their care and husbandry. The fact of me getting a trio or maybe 2 pairs of tads is,

1) im in love with darts, and well the economy sucks. 
As a college studend the price for a 200-400 dollar PDF is just way too much for me.
The price to get an appropriate enclosure/vivarium is added upon the cost of the frog. It just gets too much.

2) I have more fear of buying a dart worth couple hundred of dollars rather than a tad worth 30-50 and if something goes wrong and I loose my little buddy (the adult). Understad that watching your money go down the drain hurts like a nail to the foot. 

3) I would love to have the chance to grow my own tad, the experience of growing your little buddy is something I will sought after. The complexity of a dart growing libs, loosing the tail going to an aquatic animal to a freaking terrestrial reminds me of how nature is so beautiful. Thus for this reason I dont plan on buying an adult PDF. I would have much more care/be more concious/ and in the long term have more love for the one I raised compared to the one I bought already grown (sure yes I will end up loving the adult but its not like you have the experience of nurturing to adult hood)

By all means I dont claim to say i know what I am doing. Or that I have extensive knowledge.

This is why I dont have darts yet, I plan to wait till I have enough info. and knowledge in every stage of the darts life cycle till I get one.
I will of course have the enclosure ready, up and runing before I get one, and
yes I know, If i dont have the money then I should just wait. But the fact is I just cant lol.
Its just tragic how expensive everything is. I dont have large sums of money, and I dont know if I ever will in the long run. So "being cheap" is not the only reason to get a tad, but the experience of life is what ties me more into the subject. Looking at all of your beautiful enclosures dont help either!!! just makes me want to do better   

My comments may be irrelivent but I just thought it would be good to put out thoughts of regular ol people looking to grow in this hobby other than Breeders and collectors. Because you can make the profit of selling or trading what you have so YOU can get what YOU want, when I am restricted with what I CAN GET.

Just a view guys dont take my head! 

P.S. I can say I have extensive knowledge of keeping reptiles like lizards and snakes. So some things are not very new to me, but on the matter that darts are very delicate animals does play a roll why I must wait till I understand every single step I must take (i dont want to be that guy that sees my animal getting sick and dont know what to do) and by the time i ask you all it might be too late. So as much knowledge as I can get the better. I get on here every single day reading every single post, learning every single knook and crany of this hobby as I can before my final purchase.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Splash&Dash said:


> UE deserves support for how they operate, not because they have a certain tax designation. And the fact someone is operating as a registered business in no way guarantees they will operate in a similar manner (just look at Pelch)


When I said UE, etc I obviously wasn't talking about Joe blow with a half dozen tanks.

There are some very well established business's we should be supporting. We all know who they are...


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> There are some very well established business's we should be supporting. We all know who they are...


right, and that isn't dependent on them being registered businesses like your original argument asserted. Because registering a business isn't some huge hurdle that is a guarantee of quality nor practice ...

If you meant that we should support organizations that take an expansive view of the role of a business, that is something different and not what you argued in your original post. So instead of trying to argue with me and shift goal posts, just accept the fact that your original remarks were not clear and move on.


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## dartboard (Jan 30, 2011)

Just as a side thought. I use to own chickens, but couldn't have a rooster due to my city codes. I really wanted my kids to see how chickens developed and hatched out so I bought fertilized eggs in the mail and incubated them at home. It was a great experience for the kids. 

I could see how those that would love to watch the process without breeding their own would be interested in this. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I see raising tadpoles correctly as a greater challenge than rearing an established, fully-formed froglet, especially to a newcomer. 

Do they understand all the subtleties of water quality? Do they know which species show greater instances of cannibalism when kept together? Do they know which species may ultimately benefit from being group raised? Are they willing to provide an appropriately varied diet and do the necessary water changes that will result in bigger, stronger froglets? Are they willing to euthanize a froglet that morphs out with SLS, or another deformity, or just turns out to be a runt? If they get albinos or other aberrant variations, are they going to try to breed/sell them as a specialty frog?

Raising tads right is vital to the continuation of captive species, and I don't think every beginner is ready for that type of responsibility.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Splash&Dash said:


> right, and that isn't dependent on them being registered businesses like your original argument asserted.  Because registering a business isn't some huge hurdle that is a guarantee of quality nor practice ...


No, creating a legal business entity does not take much time or money (for the paperwork, at least). Establishing a good reputation during long tenure as a business takes a LOT of time and money.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Dane said:


> No, creating a legal business entity does not take much time or money (for the paperwork, at least). Establishing a good reputation during long tenure as a business takes a LOT of time and money.


and is something no one argued against supporting ....


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## cowboy232350 (Mar 14, 2011)

I have seen this at the reptile shows. Where before there were only frogs there are now tadpoles. They keep multiple together, which could be misunderstood that it is okay to keep them this way. They also had tadpole care sheets that said to keep them in their own countainers but I think for someone new to the hobby it is a lot harder to raise them. I have bought some tadpoles but only because I couldn't find sub adults to adults locally of the frogs I was looking for. And for those who are saying they are overwhelmed, you can always give frogs away for free. You see the post from time to time of members doing it.


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## IndustrialDreamz (Jul 15, 2013)

Dane said:


> I see raising tadpoles correctly as a greater challenge than rearing an established, fully-formed froglet, especially to a newcomer.
> 
> Do they understand all the subtleties of water quality? Do they know which species show greater instances of cannibalism when kept together? Do they know which species may ultimately benefit from being group raised? Are they willing to provide an appropriately varied diet and do the necessary water changes that will result in bigger, stronger froglets? Are they willing to euthanize a froglet that morphs out with SLS, or another deformity, or just turns out to be a runt? If they get albinos or other aberrant variations, are they going to try to breed/sell them as a specialty frog?
> 
> Raising tads right is vital to the continuation of captive species, and I don't think every beginner is ready for that type of responsibility.




You are very right with your points sir.
This is why people and my self alike should accumulate enough knowledge before they were to get any sort of animal alike. But either way its still the accumulation of knowledge that will lead you to your success just because its a greater challange dosent mean it should be strayed away from its something that for most people is a must, once your darts do produce and you decide to keep a couple or give to a friend or in most cases sell. Either way its not like you have someone to smack your hand when you do something wrong ever after you have had a purchase of grown darts. Its all the same from the beginning to the end, its reasearch that must be done before purchasing tads, or breeding/growing them.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Splash&Dash said:


> So instead of trying to argue with me and shift goal posts, just accept the fact that your original remarks were not clear and move on.


I think my original marks were clear enough, thanks. 

Not moving anywhere dude...(Sorry, don't know your given name)This is a topic I feel strongly about.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

IndustrialDreamz said:


> 1) im in love with darts, and well the economy sucks.
> As a college studend the price for a 200-400 dollar PDF is just way too much for me.
> The price to get an appropriate enclosure/vivarium is added upon the cost of the frog. It just gets too much.
> 
> 2) I have more fear of buying a dart worth couple hundred of dollars rather than a tad worth 30-50


What sorts of frogs are you looking at?! Most of the frogs I've purchased--especially back when I was starting out--were in the $30-50 range. To get started I purchased a 20 gal tank and lid (new) and had an old light from an aquarium. I bought some discount plants from Lowes, some substrate from Petco and I was on my way. I had purchased fruit fly cultures 6 weeks beforehand and had been practicing keeping cultures going each week so that I knew I would have food on hand. 

That's how I got started, and when all was said and done I had a vivarium and trio of nearly breeding age frogs for less than the price of a SINGLE frog that you quote above.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> *skylsdale*
> This sentence seems like it contradicts itself. What is the difference in your mind between being more profitable and increasing profit? From what I'm gathering here is that selling tads is slightly more profitable then selling frogs.


I was replying to your question: "Are you saying that saying that selling tadpoles is more profitable then selling froglets??

More profitable? No. Does it add to the overall profit of selling animals? Yes...but in really small proportions to the point that, in my opinion, it's not really worth it as you are nickel-and-diming a profit and monetizing every aspect of these animals. Sorry if my response was confusing: your question sounded as if you were asking in an either/or tone of tadpoles vs. frogs (i.e. which makes more?)...and I see it as a 'both/and' issue, not 'either/or.' 



> So I think what you are trying to tell me here is that it's ok to sell tads occasionally, but should not be done regularly. Is that right? If I do understand you correctly, then please tell me why that is? Is it just sacrosanct?


What I'm saying is that the increasing regularity of seeing tadpoles for sale is something that hasn't really been seen for pretty much the entire history of this hobby. I think it speaks to a fundamental shift in mindset of what it means to participate in this hobby, and that it's becoming less of a true hobby and more of a trade, where transactions and items involved (which would include frogs) are all valued monetarily.

For me there is a difference (maybe not black-and-white, maybe not a stark one) between hobbyists within a regional or local network sharing tadpoles and spreading frogs around for assurance populations or to give a 'newbie' a chance to try his hand at something new (this also assumes a generative/mentorship type culture, which I am also seeing MUCH less of). I personally view this sort of 'transaction' as being different in nature than parsing out every tadpole in a tank or cup and seeing it as potential cash in my pocket.

It's not necessarily about the specific action, per se, which seems to be what you keep hitting on...but rather the philosophy and mindset _behind_ the actions.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

double

1234


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

frogfreak said:


> I think my original marks were clear enough, thanks.


Yes, they concerned registered businesses. And when this was pointed out to be a weak burden of merit, you shifted your original argument 



> Not moving anywhere dude...(Sorry, don't know your given name)This is a topic I feel strongly about.


The maybe you should learn to clarify yourself on it.


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## IndustrialDreamz (Jul 15, 2013)

skylsdale said:


> What sorts of frogs are you looking at?! Most of the frogs I've purchased--especially back when I was starting out--were in the $30-50 range. To get started I purchased a 20 gal tank and lid (new) and had an old light from an aquarium. I bought some discount plants from Lowes, some substrate from Petco and I was on my way. I had purchased fruit fly cultures 6 weeks beforehand and had been practicing keeping cultures going each week so that I knew I would have food on hand.
> 
> That's how I got started, and when all was said and done I had a vivarium and trio of nearly breeding age frogs for less than the price of a SINGLE frog that you quote above.


 I understand SKYLSDALE the ways around the sponsor companies ect. home depot, lowes, DIY's is the cheaper rout to go and there are much more cheaper frogs out there. Me personally "I dont want that frog, I want this frog" which may or may not be 200 dollars. I have had experienced doing eclosures the cheap way but I always find my self re-doing them because once again its my preference of what I like. Not going to make others happy with a starter frog for which ever they may be. Not to mention the limited space I have for enclosures in the house. So why would I do sooo much reaserch on a specific tad/froglet/adult and also in general care for dart frogs. To just end up getting one I didnt want in the first place where I may not even have it for very long if it was not my initial purchase. I rather not put stress on any frog by trading/selling off. If im going to get one its going to be that one I will keep well into its old age. With an enclosure to go with as well. And there for comes the point of supporting companies/the sponsors vs other cheaper avenues in my point; with equipment, that Is what i believe in. I dont like paying high end pricess for a frog, but I will spend for its livelyhood to ensure the up most care.

at the end of the day your decision on your husbandry is your own, as well as mine is to my own.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Correct, it is...but what I was hearing from you was an underlying tone that purchasing tadpoles is about the only affordable way to get started keeping frogs in this hobby. If THAT is the case, then something large has gone wrong with it. I just wanted to make sure you were aware that there are other possibilities out there.


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## IndustrialDreamz (Jul 15, 2013)

skylsdale said:


> Correct, it is...but what I was hearing from you was an underlying tone that purchasing tadpoles is about the only affordable way to get started keeping frogs in this hobby. If THAT is the case, then something large has gone wrong with it. I just wanted to make sure you were aware that there are other possibilities out there.


Oh no its not the only way to get a frog, but for me at this point in time it is. Besides I want to experience the growth of a frog without paying so much for a pair to experience it. Understand that IF i had the money I sure would get a pair and experience another avenue of a life cycle (breeding and hatching tads).

My post was to just to show thoughts of people who would like to just purchase tads and what may be the reasons.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I saw mentioned years ago people would trade/sell tads to eachother. There was also less people in the hobby and also no forum access for many to use.
> 
> No we see people post publicly, plus the increase in hobbiests....is there more of a percentage of people selling tadpoles now then there used to be....or is it just a higher number in proportion to the number of hobbiests and also more in your face due to the forums?


Ignored haha


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

I have back and forth opinions on selling/shipping tads. 

I do think tads can be shipped by people that have the knowledge to do it right, but I'd personally want a well started froglet over tads any day. I hope people don't try and over breed their frogs so they can sell the tads for a quick buck. Promotes irresponsible breeding to me. 

I understand why selling a "noobie" tadpoles vs froglets can be bad, as what if something happens and the tads do not thrive. What if the tads pop out of water with SLS, Short tongue syndrome, etc? That would be quite stressful and the chances of that first timer keeping more frogs in the future would drop significantly. On the flip side, I know how cool it is to watch tads that YOU personally took care of develop, come out of the water, and raise. You have a personal connection and "good feeling" that you raised this frog (or frogs) yourself...which in turn could help the first time frog keeper into pursuing keeping frogs.

I could go on and on with my opinions, but I don't think it is really necessary  I see the good and I see the bad. You shouldn't be shipping tads if you don't know how to successfully and buyers should know the risk of buying tads.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> Correct, it is...but what I was hearing from you was an underlying tone that purchasing tadpoles is about the only affordable way to get started keeping frogs in this hobby. If THAT is the case, then something large has gone wrong with it. I just wanted to make sure you were aware that there are other possibilities out there.


One of the topics that was discussed among some of the hobbyists at the last frogday was that every hobbyist starts trying to operate like a business and selling animals, supplies etc to other hobbyists. There is nothing wrong with trying to make some money back through sales but people may want to reconsider either pulling that many eggs/tadpoles or start selling them to resellers as opposed to jumping into the local market. This would help stabilize demand and prices as local markets would end up being as saturated and it would help drive new hobbyists (and hopefully reduce the novice hobbyists' demand for wild caught frogs. 
I think we are seeing the next downturn on some of the frogs... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

skylsdale said:


> I was replying to your question: "Are you saying that saying that selling tadpoles is more profitable then selling froglets??
> 
> More profitable? No. Does it add to the overall profit of selling animals? Yes...but in really small proportions to the point that, in my opinion, it's not really worth it as you are nickel-and-diming a profit and monetizing every aspect of these animals. Sorry if my response was confusing: your question sounded as if you were asking in an either/or tone of tadpoles vs. frogs (i.e. which makes more?)...and I see it as a 'both/and' issue, not 'either/or.'


 Thank you for your clarification. 



skylsdale said:


> What I'm saying is that the increasing regularity of seeing tadpoles for sale is something that hasn't really been seen for pretty much the entire history of this hobby. I think it speaks to a fundamental shift in mindset of what it means to participate in this hobby, and that it's becoming less of a true hobby and more of a trade, where transactions and items involved (which would include frogs) are all valued monetarily.
> 
> For me there is a difference (maybe not black-and-white, maybe not a stark one) between hobbyists within a regional or local network sharing tadpoles and spreading frogs around for assurance populations or to give a 'newbie' a chance to try his hand at something new (this also assumes a generative/mentorship type culture, which I am also seeing MUCH less of). I personally view this sort of 'transaction' as being different in nature than parsing out every tadpole in a tank or cup and seeing it as potential cash in my pocket.
> 
> It's not necessarily about the specific action, per se, which seems to be what you keep hitting on...but rather the philosophy and mindset _behind_ the actions.


 OK, I understand you better now.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I don't have the vantage point all of you "old timers" have. I have kept cichlids for decades, until just a few years ago, but I'm new to frogs. What I'm about to day is directed not at the individuals posting here, but the behavior being exhibited. Because obviously there are some good people posting here who care about the hobby. But in this partcular post, you guys sound like...










I was at the Tinley Park show and perhaps there was some tads there, but all I noticed was frogs. That being said, I have not heard anything about tad raising that makes me think it's any harder than raising cichlid fry. Before anyone points fingers, I have not purchased tads nor do I have any plans to do so. I just paid more for a group of Red Galacts that are a year old, when it would have been cheaper to purchase froglets or even tads. I would not hesitate to purchase tads if I wanted to, as I think I would do as well as most at raising them.

In terms of mentorship, I see absolutely no lack of it in this hobby. In a very short time, I found a half dozen froggers who I believe are genuinely happy to answer my numerous questions. This hobby has no shortage of people who want to help. It's been great! This forum has been very helpful as well.

If there is a real issue with a larger percentage of people wanting to do this primarily for profit, then I don't think it's any different than any other hobby out there. "Those" kind of people are found in ALL hobbies.

FIRE AWAY!


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## Urban Jungle (Oct 10, 2013)

I have bought tads from pdf crazy and also know Chris personally. I really enjoy watching species I have never kept before morph out and become adults. I like to be the first person to see their unique patterns. Then based on subjective preferences I can keep the elite and sell or trade the rest after a couple months. Chris was growing up tads he purchased, he planned on breeding, and didn't have enough space to raise up hundreds of froglets. There is a reason tads cost one third the price of froglets; froglets take up time, space, and food. If someone wants to sell offspring for one third the price, then that is their decision.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Nobody is discussing "hobby rights" or laws here. Of course people can do whatever they want. I'm more interested in what it means that so many_ are_.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> If there is a real issue with a larger percentage of people wanting to do this primarily for profit, then I don't think it's any different than any other hobby out there. "Those" kind of people are found in ALL hobbies.


I'm not sure if I got lumped into the old school comment or not... 
In general, I wouldn't sell tadpoles as the risk of acquiring a bad reputation for "sick" or "poor" animals is too far out of my control. As I linked and quoted the grand old man of the hobby above, eggs are much easier to transport than tadpoles (including reduced weight).. and contrary to a lot of opinions, no harder to rear than the tadpoles themselves. 
The issue is that it is very common for a dissatisfied customer to go onto a forum and blast someone or start a whisper down the lane event... These sorts of issues are very difficult for a hobbyist or business t recover from as they linger for anyone to see... 

As for the profit part of it... Maybe being old school is what it takes to see the trends and cycles. I don't have a real issue with people attempting to sell animals to recover costs or try and make a profit...(although if people really figured out their costs and included time, all of the frogs would be much more expensive....). Where the problem is occurring is that a big chunk of the hobby is marketing only to itself.. (we've discussed this in the past as well). This increases saturation of a captive population and encourages turnover as hobbyists get away from frogs that they can't sell anymore.. 

As an example when was the last time E. anthyoni Rio Canario was last offered on here? 

We are seeing a down trend in prices and increases in the numbers of people selling at shows and competing with one another.. A frogger, I spoke to not that long ago, commented they were having trouble selling pumilio for a reasonable price.... 
This can in part drive the sale of tadpoles since it reduces the cost to the person breeding the frogs and to the person buying the frogs. So to bring this full circle, instead of trying to sell the frogs to the immediate hobby (say on dendroboard and other dart frog specific forums) or at their local shows, people may want to consider selling to wholeseller for resale.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure if I got lumped into the old school comment or not...


 Not you, but some of your comments may have been. I don't label anyone or take on personal attacks. I do my best to address ideas, comments or questions. Notice I wrote "But in this particular post, you guys sound like..." (typo corrected)



Ed said:


> In general, I wouldn't sell tadpoles as the risk of acquiring a bad reputation for "sick" or "poor" animals is too far out of my control. As I linked and quoted the grand old man of the hobby above, eggs are much easier to transport than tadpoles (including reduced weight).. and contrary to a lot of opinions, no harder to rear than the tadpoles themselves.
> The issue is that it is very common for a dissatisfied customer to go onto a forum and blast someone or start a whisper down the lane event... These sorts of issues are very difficult for a hobbyist or business t recover from as they linger for anyone to see...


 Makes sense. You don't do it because of reputation management. Good advice. 



Ed said:


> As for the profit part of it... Maybe being old school is what it takes to see the trends and cycles.


 Agreed.



Ed said:


> I don't have a real issue with people attempting to sell animals to recover costs or try and make a profit...(although if people really figured out their costs and included time, all of the frogs would be much more expensive....). Where the problem is occurring is that a big chunk of the hobby is marketing only to itself.. (we've discussed this in the past as well). This increases saturation of a captive population and encourages turnover as hobbyists get away from frogs that they can't sell anymore..


 Good points.



Ed said:


> We are seeing a down trend in prices and increases in the numbers of people selling at shows and competing with one another.. A frogger, I spoke to not that long ago, commented they were having trouble selling pumilio for a reasonable price....


 We can all agree that any product or service is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't look at frogs as "products" but for purposes of your economic point, they are. The seller you describe is either doing a poor job at marketing/selling his frogs *OR he is just flat out wrong*. Assuming that he is doing an adequate job at sales and marketing, then it also has to be assumed that his idea of "a reasonable price" is his own little fantasy. Perhaps he cannot sell his pumilios for the price he bought them for. I don't know. But sellers in a market do not determine the going rate of any product, buyers do. Sellers can set a price, but if that price is not reasonable to a buyer, then it's going to sit on the shelf.

Ed, I'm curious why you brought the above example in this discussion on the "shipping of tadpoles". I have been told and have read that pumilios are obligate egg eaters, so I assume pumilio tads are never for sale. If pumilio prices are dropping, that's great for buyers and not so great for sellers. Personally, I like that. I would like to see prices of frogs come down for a few reasons. First reason, I'm currently a buyer and not a seller. I would like to pay less for frogs, not more. Second, I think lowering costs enable froggers to get the frogs they want they may have not fit their budget previously. Lastly, if this is not a full time business for a seller and is instead a hobby, then (s)he should be happy to sell his/her frogs at the price the market dictates. It's a hobby to them after all, right?



Ed said:


> This can in part drive the sale of tadpoles since it reduces the cost to the person breeding the frogs and to the person buying the frogs. So to bring this full circle, instead of trying to sell the frogs to the immediate hobby (say on dendroboard and other dart frog specific forums) or at their local shows, people may want to consider selling to wholeseller for resale....


 It does come full circle. More competition benefits the consumer. And we are all consumers. In regards to selling frogs at a wholesale rate to retailers, that is always a good idea to consider. I saw a recent ad on DB where the person was selling froglets at different price breaks, but she also listed her tadpoles for sale, without published pricing, as being available for wholesale. I don't see anything wrong with that at all and I assume you don't either *Ed*.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ecichlid said:


> We can all agree that any product or service is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I don't look at frogs as "products" but for purposes of your economic point, they are. The seller you describe is either doing a poor job at marketing/selling his frogs *OR he is just flat out wrong*. Assuming that he is doing an adequate job at sales and marketing, then it also has to be assumed that his idea of "a reasonable price" is his own little fantasy. Perhaps he cannot sell his pumilios for the price he bought them for. I don't know. But sellers in a market do not determine the going rate of any product, buyers do. Sellers can set a price, but if that price is not reasonable to a buyer, then it's going to sit on the shelf.


I don’t have an issue with people getting a good deal.. However the side that is missed with the comments above is that if the seller cannot sell the frogs except at a loss, then they are not going to be selling those frogs in the future. This is what drives the cycles of popularity in the hobby as prices drop and animals become harder and harder to sell except at ever increasing losses, they tend to get out of those frogs. The populations crash and slowly as the older animals die off, the value rises until they start to become common again… rinse wash, repeat, it’s the same story over and over again, except with each cycle we see a decrease in genetic diversity… 





ecichlid said:


> Ed, I'm curious why you brought the above example in this discussion on the "shipping of tadpoles". I have been told and have read that pumilios are obligate egg eaters, so I assume pumilio tads are never for sale. If pumilio prices are dropping, that's great for buyers and not so great for sellers


 

The reason I brought it up as part of the discussion is that it is an example of how the cycle is moving in the hobby. For at least the last ten years, pumilio have been in fairly high demand as different populations have become available. If a seller is having trouble selling adult established (generally) sexed adults, except at a loss, it’s a pretty strong indicator that they are entering into a down cycle. If you look at the cb frogs people are selling, we don’t see anything near what we should expect if there was even a modest success (examples almirante/mancreek, caucheros). 




ecichlid said:


> Personally, I like that. I would like to see prices of frogs come down for a few reasons. First reason, I'm currently a buyer and not a seller. I would like to pay less for frogs, not more. Second, I think lowering costs enable froggers to get the frogs they want they may have not fit their budget previously. Lastly, if this is not a full time business for a seller and is instead a hobby, then (s)he should be happy to sell his/her frogs at the price the market dictates. It's a hobby to them after all, right?


 

Even if the price drops to the point people get out of the frogs causing a down trend in the genetics as well the price? 
While the claim it’s a hobby people shouldn’t care about the price is a nice ideal, it isn’t what we see happen.. The harder a frog is to sell, the less people are going to want to rear them to sell as they end up with unwanted frogs in multiple enclosures… As a result we see popularity cycles and due to that we have seen at least one frog disappear from the hobby… 


There is a status in this hobby in gaining the best deal on an item (animals and plants included) and this isn’t always the best thing for the hobby at large. This is also part of the whole tadpole selling. It tends to be a good deal for the consumer but it also encourages people to continue to pair siblings together for the next generation of breeding. The more generations that are the result of inbreeding, the greater the loss of important genes like those in the major histocompatability complexes. 
Some comments 

Ed


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Ed said:


> As an example when was the last time E. anthyoni Rio Canario was last offered on here?


Just for the record: about 2 months ago when I posted an ad for them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> Just for the record: about 2 months ago when I posted an ad for them.


Thanks Ron...  I had missed the ad on here but it still remains that these guys aren't offered as frequently as they used to be... 

Ed


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Ed said:


> Thanks Ron...  I had missed the ad on here but it still remains that these guys aren't offered as frequently as they used to be...


They're definitely not. And don't assume many folks were all that interested, either.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> They're definitely not. And don't assume many folks were all that interested, either.


I really like mine if that is any consolation... 


Ed


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Ron, if you're still working with them when I get going again, I'll pick some up. I was really tempted by your ad.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I wish frogs were more expensive. I wish there were less people involved. I wish it were more of a hobby and prices were high enough that most transactions were trades between hobbyists. I hope that if a frog starts to disappear its something that I keep so it doesn't disappear. Id be thrilled to trade away some of those disappearing frogs for frogs I dont have. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk


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