# Multi-Species Vivariums



## TheBlizz

Ah, the heated debate. I know the members of this forum are probably sighing. Not another newbie who wants to load a tank full of different animals. 

I understand that this is frowned upon, and I respect and appreciate your opinions. However, I've heard success stories, and the idea of being able to use one enclosure as a home for multiple different animals, and create a little ecosystem within my home has great appeal to me. 

I don't intend on doing anything rediculous or rash, but I do want to start a Multi-Species Vivarium someday in my home. Could any of the members who keep MSVs please tell me some potentially compatible species of frogs, lizards, anoles, snakes, etc? It would probably be in a 55 Gallon Terrarium. 

Again, sorry to cause any trouble. I know this is generally frowned upon, and I understand. However, I want to make it work, and your suggestions are appreciated.


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## patm

Personally, I don't think 55 gallons is even close to big enough to be worthy of starting the discussion...


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## kimcmich

Greetings,

You'll get the strongest frowns if you intend to mix closely related dart frog species/morphs. There are good reasons to avoid this and they can be found in many threads in the archive (just use the google search box above *but scroll down past the 1/2 page of irrelevant paid results to find the search results from dendroboard*).

When it comes to "establishing an ecosystem" you don't really do that merely be keeping a frog and a lizard in the same tank. I get what you mean - you want to have a viv where you can see a variety of creatures carrying out their lives and interacting. 

You can get that kind of viv without necessarily needed to mix frogs and lizards, actually (not that there aren't a variety of mixed setups that would work). In a naturalistic, planted frog tank, for instance, you could have frogs, a variety of arthropods such as small insects, millipedes and isopods without trying very hard at all.

Likewise, I have kept eastern mud turtles in paludarium tanks with freshwater shrimp, snails and guppies.

In that same realm, I cannot recommend fiddler crabs strongly enough! They need a specially constructed substrate because they burrow prodigiously - but once you plan for that they are easy to keep and endlessly entertaining to watch. Fiddler crabs are almost exclusively detrivores, so you can keep them with similarly-sized fish and other crustaceans like shrimp.

Your list of desired participants in your mixed setup should probably not include snakes at all (unless you're talking about something unusual like a worm snake). Trying to include a snake would likely push your "community viv" in the direction of animal Thunderdome which is not responsible animal husbandry.

But if you are satisfied with "only" amphibians, a small gecko, insects, crustaceans and molluscs you can certainly have a mixed tank that offers a good home to its inhabitants.


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## Pumilo

55 gallons is not large enough for multiple species.

Keep in mind that successful, multi species tanks, do NOT count as successful if animals don't have a full and proper lifespan. A viv that's been up a year, is not necessarily successful.

Keep in mind that successful, multi species vivs are made by hobbyists with many years of experience.

Keep in mind that most successful, multi species vivs, are made by hobbyists who have personal experience keeping each and every species that you intend to include.

Finally, and this is a big one, if you have to ask how to do a multi species vivarium, you are not ready. Not even close.
Don't take that personally. I've kept animals my entire life, and frogs for many, many years. I've also professionally farmed live coral. 
Yet still, I do NOT consider myself ready for multi species vivariums. Maybe someday, but I refuse to risk the lives of the animals, until I KNOW I can be fully, and truly successful, including full life spans and successful breeding.


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## TheBlizz

Thank you, everyone. I had seen a forum where somebody was discussing options for 55 Gallon, so I assumed that size was suitable, but it's always better to be safe than sorry and I respect that. 

Does anybody have any interesting species that could live in a 55 Gallon without others? I know this is really a dart frog forum, but are there any species of gecko, anole, OR dart frog that could live in groups in a 55? Like either a group of dart frogs or a group of, say House Geckos. They wouldn't live together.


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## highvoltagerob

A 55 gallon tank is certainly large enough for many different single species groups. If you feel you must go multi species, I successfully kept green tree frogs and green anoles together for over 7 years. It was a 48x24x36 enclosure that was well planted and gave lots of space and hides for everyone. They also come from the same environment and I kept both species separately for years before attempting to keep them together.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## thenatureterrarium

I agree with this quote, "If you have to ask, then you are not ready." That said I think the best multi-species tank would have to be pumilio and auratus. I kept these two species in a ninety gallon with great success. I did keep both species seperately for years before I attempted this. There was almost no interaction between the two species. Sadly, I only kept this tank for about six months so I can't really say if they would breed in this type of setup.

As for frogs in a 55 gallon. You could go with almost anything. Terriblis comes to mind, leucomelas, auratus possibly.


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## Pumilo

If you are willing to stick to one species, then that really swings open the doors of what you can keep. There are many that you can keep in a single species group. That should be big enough for just about any type of dart frog.

Most new people to the hobby start with bigger, bolder, terrestrial dart frogs. That said, I'll let other's fill in the blanks. I work with the tiny, shyer species.


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## TheBlizz

Thinking more about it, I do feel as though I would prefer to keep Geckos/Lizards moreso than frogs... if anybody is willing to help me with that, then that would be much appreciated. There really aren't many Reptile forums out there.


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## pdfCrazy

There are many suitable vivarium species of geckos. Geckos and lizard species should almost without exception never be mixed. It is possible to keep some gecko and frog combinations together very easily. The hot trend right now is Mourning geckos. My Mourning geckos are ridiculously prolific. I would NOT keep them with small frogs as I have witnessed them devour one of my pumilio with gusto. There are a multitude of species of geckos that make excellent display animals for a planted living bioactive tank. An excellent option is day geckos.


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## mantisdragon91

pdfCrazy said:


> Geckos and lizard species should almost without exception never be mixed.


That will certainly come as a shock to the dozen plus mixed enclosures of geckos and lizards I currently maintain, many of which have had the same residents for over a decade and many of which see multiple species breeding without issue in them.


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## JPP

Geckos _are_ lizards...


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## pdfCrazy

mantisdragon91 said:


> That will certainly come as a shock to the dozen plus mixed enclosures of geckos and lizards I currently maintain, many of which have had the same residents for over a decade and many of which see multiple species breeding without issue in them.


I didnt say it was impossible. But I'd like to see pictures or a list of what species your keeping together.



JPP said:


> Geckos _are_ lizards...


Yes, geckos are lizards....but lizards are not geckos.

My point is, Lizards and geckos can be highly territorial, and are prone to maiming and or eating one another. Even more so than dart frogs.
Again, my advice if your intent on setting up a mixed tank involving lizards or geckos, is to have a species that will not present itself as a prey item, or a competing lizard species.


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## Ed

mantisdragon91 said:


> That will certainly come as a shock to the dozen plus mixed enclosures of geckos and lizards I currently maintain, many of which have had the same residents for over a decade and many of which see multiple species breeding without issue in them.


Reproduction isn't a good metric to use as a claim for animal well being. Its one that is commonly thrown around in the various captive animal hobbies but its very low bar as the stress has to be fairly severe before it reduces reproduction. 

For those interested see Moore, Ignacio T., and Tim S. Jessop. "Stress, reproduction, and adrenocortical modulation in amphibians and reptiles." Hormones and Behavior 43.1 (2003): 39-47. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

TheBlizz said:


> Thank you, everyone. I had seen a forum where somebody was discussing options for 55 Gallon, so I assumed that size was suitable, but it's always better to be safe than sorry and I respect that.
> 
> Does anybody have any interesting species that could live in a 55 Gallon without others? I know this is really a dart frog forum, but are there any species of gecko, anole, OR dart frog that could live in groups in a 55? Like either a group of dart frogs or a group of, say House Geckos. They wouldn't live together.


Perhaps the best place for you to start is by picking a geographic region and then looking at the available species in that locality. If you stick with species that are from the ecosystem, you have a much better chance of not only successfully keeping an enclosure with multiple taxa (that is opposed to multispecies which could mean that your intending to keep multiple species of say Gonatodes or Dendrobates together which is where it is very easy to run into issues). 

I always suggest not keeping animals from disparate regions together as much as possible as there is greater risk of novel pathogen transfer and mourning geckos and dendrobatids aren't found the same region. As a simple example it has been established that while it doesn't cause mortality in reptiles, Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis ("chytrid") is capable of infecting reptiles allowing it to persist in a location. If you are keeping animals from different regions then you could allow DNA exchange between chytrid populations which raises the risk of increased virulence. See 
Kilburn, Vanessa L., Roberto Ibáñez, and David M. Green. "Reptiles as potential vectors and hosts of the amphibian pathogen Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis in Panama." Diseases of aquatic organisms 97.2 (2011): 127-134. for reptiles in the wild carrying chytrid.

As for the 55 gallon being too small that in reality depends on what you want to keep and how you plan to set it up. The problem most people run into is that they build the cage and then try to shoehorn the animals into working in that cage. You need to be able to make sure the proper habitat for the animals is present before they are added to the cage. 

some comments 

Ed


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## mantisdragon91

pdfCrazy said:


> I didnt say it was impossible. But I'd like to see pictures or a list of what species your keeping together


Here are just a few examples:
1) Petrasaurus Mearnsi with Ptyodactylus Hasselquiti as well as Homopholis Walhlbergi and Pachydactylys Bibroni(separate enclosures)
2) Ptyodactylus Ragazzi with Emperor Flat Rock Lizards
3) Green Basilisks with Tokay Geckos
4) Jalapura Splendida with Phelsuma Grandis
5) Abronea Mixteca with Phelsuma Madagascarensis
6) Anolis Onca with Homopholis Fasciata and Phelsuma Sundbergi LaDigua
7) Anolis Swartzi with Gonatodes Albogattus
8) Anolis Sabanus with Okinawan Green Lacertas and Gold Dust Day Geckos
9) Anolis Marmoratus with Phelsuma Borbonica
10( Anolis Allisoni with Flying Geckos and Phelsuma Heischelri
11) Aliuronyx Seychellensis with Uroplatus Sikkorae
12) Uroplatus Lineatus and Fimbriatus with Green Tree Skinks, Phelsuma Standingi and Knight Anoles
13) Plica Plica, with Anolis Smallwoodi, Phelsuma Madagascarensis and Oplurus Cyclurus
14) Anolis Extremus and Phelsuma Klemmeri
15) Phelsuma Klemmeri and Gonatodes Vittatus
16) Anolis Ferreus and Phelsuma Madagascarensis
17) Phelsuma Madagascarensis and Uroplatus Henkeli
18) Abronia Lychophila and Gehyra Marginata
19) Anolis Hendersoni with Peacock and gold dust day geckos(in separate enclosures
20) Anolis Pogus and Gold dusts

And all these have been coexisting for years with the longest group going on over 13 years with no skin tears or other signs of stress. Make of it what you will but absolute statements(like lizards can't be kept with geckos) tend to irk me. The reality is that in my 35 years of experience in working with almost 300 species the biggest cause of fatality and stress has been conspecifics and not animals of a different species.


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## Tay0001

New to keeping frogs so I'm more asking than suggesting.

What about insects like stick insects? They're herbivores so probably won't bother frogs, and they get large enough to not be eaten by smaller frogs.


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## mantisdragon91

Tay0001 said:


> New to keeping frogs so I'm more asking than suggesting.
> 
> What about insects like stick insects? They're herbivores so probably won't bother frogs, and they get large enough to not be eaten by smaller frogs.


I don't know of anyone who has ever kept stick insects with darts. Not saying it can't be done but it is outside my knowledge base


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## JPP

Tay0001 said:


> What about insects like stick insects? They're herbivores so probably won't bother frogs, and they get large enough to not be eaten by smaller frogs.


So they'll probably just eat the plants in your viv instead.


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## Deltagraphic

kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> You'll get the strongest frowns if you intend to mix closely related dart frog species/morphs. There are good reasons to avoid this and they can be found in many threads in the archive (just use the google search box above *but scroll down past the 1/2 page of irrelevant paid results to find the search results from dendroboard*).
> 
> When it comes to "establishing an ecosystem" you don't really do that merely be keeping a frog and a lizard in the same tank. I get what you mean - you want to have a viv where you can see a variety of creatures carrying out their lives and interacting.
> 
> You can get that kind of viv without necessarily needed to mix frogs and lizards, actually (not that there aren't a variety of mixed setups that would work). In a naturalistic, planted frog tank, for instance, you could have frogs, a variety of arthropods such as small insects, millipedes and isopods without trying very hard at all.
> 
> Likewise, I have kept eastern mud turtles in paludarium tanks with freshwater shrimp, snails and guppies.
> 
> In that same realm, I cannot recommend fiddler crabs strongly enough! They need a specially constructed substrate because they burrow prodigiously - but once you plan for that they are easy to keep and endlessly entertaining to watch. Fiddler crabs are almost exclusively detrivores, so you can keep them with similarly-sized fish and other crustaceans like shrimp.
> 
> Your list of desired participants in your mixed setup should probably not include snakes at all (unless you're talking about something unusual like a worm snake). Trying to include a snake would likely push your "community viv" in the direction of animal Thunderdome which is not responsible animal husbandry.
> 
> But if you are satisfied with "only" amphibians, a small gecko, insects, crustaceans and molluscs you can certainly have a mixed tank that offers a good home to its inhabitants.



I couldn't agree more with keeping a variety of inverts. I keeps vivariums with upwards of 15 species of "large" inverts and countless species of microfauna. My first serious foray into frogs will be the mantella betsileo I am planning to add to my established 18x18x24 in a week or two. I have worked to establish the sort of ecosystem you mentioned by adding successive trophic layers of inverts such that the populations fall into balance. For a tank this size, something as small as a mantella will be a massive apex predator albeit one that can sustainably interact with a microfaunal food-web (along with supplemental feedings) Right now that role is being filled by a couple jumping spiders and I think they are having trouble keeping up on the roach nymphs and such. The rule I chose for selecting predatory species is: large enough to eat the young of most vivarium inhabitants but small enough to leave established adults alone. 

While at a glance, this may seem less exciting than having a few species of vertebrates kept together, I would argue that for a keeper it is more rewarding as you are actually creating a facsimile of nature rather than overstocking only the higher trophic levels and having to insert a lot of external input to the system to maintain your creatures. Going beyond spring-tails and isopods, you will find that a rich variety of inverts can be every bit as fascinating as a herp. Watch a jumping spider meticulously flank its prey to prepare the perfect ambush and you will understand why I have been able to research and plan on getting mantellas for over a year without rushing out to buy them. 

Barring any unforeseen harm to the frogs, I hope to document my set up in hopes of encouraging others to branch out past isopods and springtails. Maybe some more info on inverts could give people another avenue to scratch the multi-species itch.


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## Groundhog

Okay, Blizz:

1) Lose the idea of an "ecosystem," as in a self-contained system. Not doable. Better to think of your project as a "community tank" for terrestrial animals;

2) We don't begrudge people asking questions. But you should be aware of the various resources before embarking on such a project. For example, you should read books and articles by Philippe de Vosjoli (_Lizard Keeper's Handbook_, for one), and you should be familiar with this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html

3) I am not as daring as MantisDragon on mixing lizards, but it can work. For example, our rescue (Social Tees) got in a tegu, when I realized she was tame I put her with the guy on my shoulder. They seem to appreciate each other's company (and Aussie water dragons have amazing immune systems). That said--don't do it. 

Far better to follow Ed and others who suggest, if you want to try this, mix animals from the same biogeographic region. It really is safer.

4) C'mon guys, there is a lot one can do with a 55--if one is careful... 

combo a:
1.2 anoles
2 grey tree frogs
3 oak toads

combo b:
1.1 flying geckos
1.1 tree skinks

combo c:
1.1 large Phelsuma
2 Kassina maculata 

combo d:
1.2 small Phelsuma
4 reed frogs 

I'm sure these would get the MantisDragon approval ;-)

The key is to keep it local, don't overcrowd, stratify the tank to create different spaces. 

Now read, and read some more.


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## Groundhog

MantisDragon:

You have no issues with Phelsuma grandis? I have seen some, especially the males, to be a bit too "assertive." They did not try to push the Japaluras around? Interesting! How big an enclosure?



mantisdragon91 said:


> Here are just a few examples:
> 1) Petrasaurus Mearnsi with Ptyodactylus Hasselquiti as well as Homopholis Walhlbergi and Pachydactylys Bibroni(separate enclosures)
> 2) Ptyodactylus Ragazzi with Emperor Flat Rock Lizards
> 3) Green Basilisks with Tokay Geckos
> 4) Jalapura Splendida with Phelsuma Grandis
> 5) Abronea Mixteca with Phelsuma Madagascarensis
> 6) Anolis Onca with Homopholis Fasciata and Phelsuma Sundbergi LaDigua
> 7) Anolis Swartzi with Gonatodes Albogattus
> 8) Anolis Sabanus with Okinawan Green Lacertas and Gold Dust Day Geckos
> 9) Anolis Marmoratus with Phelsuma Borbonica
> 10( Anolis Allisoni with Flying Geckos and Phelsuma Heischelri
> 11) Aliuronyx Seychellensis with Uroplatus Sikkorae
> 12) Uroplatus Lineatus and Fimbriatus with Green Tree Skinks, Phelsuma Standingi and Knight Anoles
> 13) Plica Plica, with Anolis Smallwoodi, Phelsuma Madagascarensis and Oplurus Cyclurus
> 14) Anolis Extremus and Phelsuma Klemmeri
> 15) Phelsuma Klemmeri and Gonatodes Vittatus
> 16) Anolis Ferreus and Phelsuma Madagascarensis
> 17) Phelsuma Madagascarensis and Uroplatus Henkeli
> 18) Abronia Lychophila and Gehyra Marginata
> 19) Anolis Hendersoni with Peacock and gold dust day geckos(in separate enclosures
> 20) Anolis Pogus and Gold dusts
> 
> And all these have been coexisting for years with the longest group going on over 13 years with no skin tears or other signs of stress. Make of it what you will but absolute statements(like lizards can't be kept with geckos) tend to irk me. The reality is that in my 35 years of experience in working with almost 300 species the biggest cause of fatality and stress has been conspecifics and not animals of a different species.


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## mantisdragon91

Groundhog said:


> MantisDragon:
> 
> You have no issues with Phelsuma grandis? I have seen some, especially the males, to be a bit too "assertive." They did not try to push the Japaluras around? Interesting! How big an enclosure?



They are housed in 16" by 16" by 30" screen cage and I have not seen a single sign of territoriality or aggression. I had previously housed the Jalapuras in a 16' by 16" by 20" screen cage with a breeding pair of Gecko Vittatus and moved them here to get better visibility of them as their old cage was in a low corner of my reptile room. If anything the Jalapuras have gotten more colorful since moving into the new enclosures and their green side stripes are now eye popping in their vividness of color.


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## Vivagirl

I know this is a old post but I wanted to say that dart frogs can be pared with mourning geckos. They are a small species often used as feeders. But I find them quite charming. You can also section off a SMALL "pond" area and house cherry shrimp and a moss ball in it.


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## fishingguy12345

Vivagirl said:


> I know this is a old post but I wanted to say that dart frogs can be pared with mourning geckos. They are a small species often used as feeders. But I find them quite charming. You can also section off a SMALL "pond" area and house cherry shrimp and a moss ball in it.


This is, in my opinion, terrible advice. 

Dart frogs and mourning geckos don't pair well together and a "pond" is completely unnecessary and provides no benefit to the frogs.


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## Socratic Monologue

Tangential, but mourning geckos are not "often used as feeders". Likely there is a confusion with WC anoles and house geckos, which are sometimes used as feeders for lizard-eating snakes -- though neither of those species are suitable for cohabitation either (since no species are).

Anyone who stumbles on this is advised to enter "mixing" in the search field on the top of this page and make some coffee, since you're in for a lot of reading on all the reasons why darts shouldn't be cohabitated with any vertebrates of any other species.


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