# Hardy Thumbnail Dart Frogs



## JD55 (Jan 10, 2021)

What species of thumbnail dart frogs are the most tolerant regarding the environment?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Thumbs are not a great first dart frog in general. They are more sensitive than any of the _Dendrobates _species, and are best kept in similar sized vivaria as are many more sturdy frogs. They are also, to a large extent, quite shy. I see one of my (six or eight? I don't know how many are in there) sirensis every couple days, until it sees me. My thumbs all seem to be more visible in larger vivs, ~30+ gallons for a pair.

That said, _Ranitomeya imitator _the probably the hardiest and least difficult to care for of the bunch, in part because they are more bold than most of the other thumbs so the keeper can know earlier if they're doing poorly. Imitators are best kept as singles or 1.1 pairs unless the viv is larger than any of the off-the-shelf sizes.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I see 4-6 (of my 7) Ranitomeya sirensis every day, if I check on them right when their lights come on. They take 15-30 minutes to emerge from their bromeliads and they're easy to spot then  and they don't care that I'm there as long as I don't open the terrarium.

Generally speaking, _Dendrobates tinctorius,_ _leucomelas_ or _auratus_ make great beginner dart frogs.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I'll take a crack at answering this question a different way. I would way that all thumbnails are equally tolerant in terms of their environment. That is, if you set their tanks up correctly for the species in question, they will all thrive. All are equally intolerant of incorrect husbandry practices. What most folks will advise is to decide what species you want then set up a tank that will suit that species that best. If you do that, you will probably have success. Most dart frogs are pretty forgiving if you give them a proper setup.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## JD55 (Jan 10, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> I'll take a crack at answering this question a different way. I would way that all thumbnails are equally tolerant in terms of their environment. That is, if you set their tanks up correctly for the species in question, they will all thrive. All are equally intolerant of incorrect husbandry practices. What most folks will advise is to decide what species you want then set up a tank that will suit that species that best. If you do that, you will probably have success. Most dart frogs are pretty forgiving if you give them a proper setup.
> 
> Best of luck,
> 
> Mark


Okay - I wanted to get Ranitomeya sirensis 'Biolat'. According to josh's frogs, an 18 x 18 x 18 vivarium is enough for 1-3 of them (I plan to only buy 2 and hope for a pair). I already have the 18 x 18 x 18 terrarium for the pair + a 20 gallon long for quarantine or froglet raising. I also have a humidity controller + a fogger, and I've started to make my room cooler. Right now I need to buy the actual stuff that goes inside the to-be vivarium (LECA , substrate, plants, etc.). I am trying to figure out how plant mounting would work, so I would like advice on that.

I come from the mantis-keeper hobby, so I know very well the importance of humidity and ventilation. I have lots of experience in that area, and have successfully raised and bred these specimens.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sounds like you have a good plan. I think that tank would work for a pair of sirensis. Folks will probably tell you that Ranitomeya would like a bit more height, and they would be correct, but I think an 18x18x18 would work. As you know, by the time you get the drainage layer and substrate into a vivarium, that cuts into your height quite a bit. I think what you have is adequate. Your plan to get a pair is a good one. Get a couple of frogs and hope for 1.1. If you don't get that, you can add one (maybe from different genetics?) and hope for the best. The problem is that it's difficult to sex Ranitomeya, so there may be some trial and error involved. 

As for plant mounting, there is an absolute wealth of info on this site. Maybe look into how to make a background, which wood to use, etc. There is some great stuff available through the search bar at the top (useful now, unlike in the old version of the site).

I don't recommend relying on a fogger to "control" your humidity. That approach might work better with bugs, but for frogs (and the plants that go in their tanks), there is no substitute for misting (by hand works just fine and you can add an automatic mister later if you so choose). Also, I don't know how it is with mantises but, with frogs, you don't want to completely control your humidity 24/7. I recommend shooting for 60% to 80% (no higher for any length of time - after misting, high humidity can't be avoided) for the majority of the daily cycle. Beyond that, let it fluctuate. There is no need or benefit to fitting to a curve of some sort. That is not how natural environments work. Just shoot for not too dry (plants die, frogs hide at best) and not too wet (frogs lose their ability to thermoregulate with evaporative cooling. While I am at it, I will advise steering clear of any water features. They are completely unnecessary to the frogs and introduce sub-optimal conditions and long-term headaches. 

Not sure what your temps are now, but dart frogs don't mind some cool. In fact, heat is more their enemy than cool. They don't like it much above 80 degrees. They can handle it down in the 60s routinely (I don't like to keep mine much into the 60s, but a lot of folks do). 

Let us know if you have more specific questions as you get into the build.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## JD55 (Jan 10, 2021)

Encyclia said:


> Sounds like you have a good plan. I think that tank would work for a pair of sirensis. Folks will probably tell you that Ranitomeya would like a bit more height, and they would be correct, but I think an 18x18x18 would work. As you know, by the time you get the drainage layer and substrate into a vivarium, that cuts into your height quite a bit. I think what you have is adequate. Your plan to get a pair is a good one. Get a couple of frogs and hope for 1.1. If you don't get that, you can add one (maybe from different genetics?) and hope for the best. The problem is that it's difficult to sex Ranitomeya, so there may be some trial and error involved.
> 
> As for plant mounting, there is an absolute wealth of info on this site. Maybe look into how to make a background, which wood to use, etc. There is some great stuff available through the search bar at the top (useful now, unlike in the old version of the site).
> 
> ...


Could I use the fogger to cool the vivarium?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Not reliably, I don't think. If the viv is too warm, you need to find the reason for it. Adjusting room temperature is always a better idea than trying to actively heat or cool the viv. You can use the fogger to make the tank look cool 

I should also say that the lighting and vents have a big role in how hot my tanks get, so you might have a look at that aspect, too.

Mark


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

Ranitomeya are my first dart frog and its gone ok. I did a job lot of research though and I have 4 in a 18x18x24. My tips would be

1) Make sure you've seen them before you commit. They're rapid and in the early days it can be quite stressful when you open the tank. I made the mistake early on of not checking everywhere within hopping distance and assuming they'd hop away from the open door. They don't and once the get on the open floor you soon realise how quick they can motor.

2) The more the tank is planted, the more you'll see the frogs. It's counter intuitive but it really is true. If they have somewhere to hide, they will come out more. At 24, they use all the height in my viv.

3) Also spent a lot of time worrying about temps. I'm from the UK and our winters can get quite cold with homes not really designed for long periods of cold. As above, it's been heat in the summer that has been the more complex issue. But that would be the same for all frogs.


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## JD55 (Jan 10, 2021)

LCBeckett said:


> Ranitomeya are my first dart frog and its gone ok. I did a job lot of research though and I have 4 in a 18x18x24. My tips would be
> 
> 1) Make sure you've seen them before you commit. They're rapid and in the early days it can be quite stressful when you open the tank. I made the mistake early on of not checking everywhere within hopping distance and assuming they'd hop away from the open door. They don't and once the get on the open floor you soon realise how quick they can motor.
> 
> ...


I've seen posts about the temps and I'm already working on it. I have a spare thermostat I can use. I'm sure I can handle speed; praying mantis nymphs are EXTREMELY tiny and run fast. If I could handle those I'm sure I can handle a frog. There's a pumilio in my local store, so maybe I can ask if I can observe it. Regarding plants, I plan to put some pothos and bromeliads in there and maybe some philodendron.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

JD55 said:


> I'm sure I can handle speed; praying mantis nymphs are EXTREMELY tiny and run fast. If I could handle those I'm sure I can handle a frog.


I don't doubt that you could handle it, but thumbs don't run. Nor do they hop. They teleport.


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## JD55 (Jan 10, 2021)

Does anyone know any breeders where I can get them?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Get what specifically? Local, experienced breeders are always preferable, especially when weather is too cold for shipping. I guess it depends where you live  

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

@JD55, soon your account have access to the Marketplace, and you can place a wanted ad there, and also hunt around the Marketplace archives to get an idea of which breeders may have migrated to other platforms.


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## Ukee (Jan 25, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Thumbs are not a great first dart frog in general. They are more sensitive than any of the _Dendrobates _species, and are best kept in similar sized vivaria as are many more sturdy frogs. They are also, to a large extent, quite shy. I see one of my (six or eight? I don't know how many are in there) sirensis every couple days, until it sees me. My thumbs all seem to be more visible in larger vivs, ~30+ gallons for a pair.
> 
> That said, _Ranitomeya imitator _the probably the hardiest and least difficult to care for of the bunch, in part because they are more bold than most of the other thumbs so the keeper can know earlier if they're doing poorly. Imitators are best kept as singles or 1.1 pairs unless the viv is larger than any of the off-the-shelf sizes.


I'm going to jump in here because I have a similar question and would be curious if you could elaborate on your points re: sex ratios and unusual sized enclosures. I have been reading about _R. imitator _and _R. amazonica_, and both appeal to me. I am building up several tall but skinny vivariums (22.5 x 17.5 x 37) and was wondering if either or both of these species would do well in a small group in such a setup. A cursory look at info on here indicates 'yes', BUT...how many frogs _could _be kept in such a tank? Would it be necessary to sex them and buy according to a ratio, or would a random group sort itself out? 
I am reading as much as I can here and elsewhere, but this seemed like a nice opportunity to ask for a direct opinion.
Any general impressions of either species would be useful too.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Ukee said:


> I have been reading about _R. imitator _and _R. amazonica_, and both appeal to me. I am building up several tall but skinny vivariums (22.5 x 17.5 x 37) and was wondering if either or both of these species would do well in a small group in such a setup. A cursory look at info on here indicates 'yes', BUT...how many frogs _could _be kept in such a tank? Would it be necessary to sex them and buy according to a ratio, or would a random group sort itself out?


Imitators are best in 1.1 pairs. Other group sizes/ratios are known to sort themselves out by whittling down to 1.1 pairs through attrition (not a recommended procedure). Pairs will raise young in the viv, and these offspring may possibly mix better with the original pair if they grow up in there, though I've not attempted this. 

Amazonica (which I haven't kept) are said to do well in even mix groups, so a 2.2 would be nice in an Alto. I believe they are one of the species (former _R. ventrimaculatus) _that is known to engage in brood parasitism, so female-heavy groups might be interesting, too. 

Other group-tolerant thumbnails that I keep are _R. vanzolinii_ and _R. sirensis._ Both seem only slightly less tolerant of husbandry shortcomings than are imitators in my experience. An Alto would make a nice enclosure for 2.2 of either of these. Both (like _R. imitator_) are egg-feeders as well, which is the coolest thing ever. 

Personally, I buy a group of juveniles or subadults, then house individually or in small groups and sort into their final viv by sex as I am able to (although the US-based breeder that I've bought most of my thumbs from is good at sexing subadults). Other folks get a group and put them right into the display viv and pull frogs out until they have the preferred sex ratio remaining.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

You'll never see your amazonica's lol. I almost never see mine. My sirensis are MUCH bolder by comparison, despite their reputation as shy frogs.


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I don't doubt that you could handle it, but thumbs don't run. Nor do they hop. They teleport.


They Teleport is a superb description of what they do. The amount of times I've seen leaves move and a flash of orange, but no frog. When spooked I swear they are faster than the human eye can cope with!

I have an Amazonica group, they've been fine as a 2.2, but tall skinny is a good design for a viv if my experience of them is anything to go by. They use all the height and I wish I'd added more height to my viv.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Thumbs are not a great first dart frog in general.


I would like to echo this statement.


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