# Without your help, I have to mix my frogs! Socal keepers ? :)



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey all,

I apologize for the thread title...but its kinda true! 

So I rescued some frogs a while back (around feb/march) and they have been doing well with me since. Some of you have helped me ID the frogs in my other thread: 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...scued-some-frogs-could-use-some-guidance.html

The frogs are "okay" in their current setups but I have been unsatisfied with them since I received them (despite some fixing up I did...). I have setup a 29gal that is currently cycling and I wish to move the frogs to. I also need to break down the current tanks they are in for other reasons.

Now I'm personally pro-mixing (as long as it's done right) but I am not at the point to do it right. So, I was hoping to find someone who might trade me frogs? 

From my understanding (see above thread) I have 0.0.1 Variablilis and 0.0.2 O.Pumilio Cristobals. I do not wish to mix them but I do not have any more room for them and the variabilis is in an 8" cube tank atm. So I was hoping for someone to trade me for the pumilio's or variabilis (or maybe I give you all 3 of them and you give me a 1.2 or somesuch set of something else?)

All 3 frogs have been eating quite well, and the pumilio's are not shy at all! The variabilis comes out to eat and occasionally looks out, but he is pretty skiddish whenever I get nearby. 


*If not, my worst case scenario is to either mix the 1 variabilis with the pumilios or to keep him in that 8" tank....neither of which makes me very happy*




Sorry if this is posted in the wrong forum.....its not a classified so I wasn't quite sure where to post it.....I'm not "looking" to trade but I more feel like I "have to" :\

I can post pics of the new 29gal setup shortly


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

to be fair, you can't represent those frogs as o. pumilio cristobal. they are o. pumilio NO ID and should not be mixed/matched with other frogs. any trades or sales should be treated as such. as for the variabilis, you also should not guess as to the line/locale and trade or sell it to breed with another frog of known background.

i'm not picking on you, just think that you should tell any froggers who take these off your hands that their origin is unknown to prevent future pollution of bloodlines. it is the responsible thing to do.

respectfully,
brett


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

btcope: I'm sorry if it came across that way, I definitely didn't mean it! 


Just to be clear, the "supposed" IDs I have are from people on these forums. I took these in as rescues; I actually don't know anything about them. 


but that doesn't change the fact that I need to break down the pumilio tank relatively asap, the variabilis tank is ultimately too small for him, and i have a 29gal that could comfortably house 3 frogs....so I'm liking to just go ahead and mix them unless I can get a trade.....it seems more fair to the poor variabilis than keeping him in the 8" cube. 


if someone would be interested in buying them, thats ok with me too....I'd just use the money to buy some frogs from someone else (if we couldn't work out a trade).


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

EvilLost said:


> it seems more fair to the poor variabilis than keeping him in the 8" cube.


It may seem that way now, but if the pumilio start picking on the variabilis you may change your tune....

That is in no way intended to mean that I am encouraging you to keep the variabilis in an 8" cube....

Is there some reason you can't go out and buy a 10 gallon tank for $15 and set yourself up a temp tank? Temp tanks aren't the ideal situation, but frogs can live comfortably in temp tanks for surprisingly long periods of time....


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

you could even use sterlite bins


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## mikebell (Mar 4, 2011)

I think brotherly monkey saying right that you have to use sterlite bins.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

The $1 per gallon sale is going on at petco so it can save money.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry, but to me it seems just really wrong to be trying to guilt us into this. It's not our fault that you are considering mixing. 
Furthermore, it seems even more wrong to be trying to guilt us into this when you basically state that soon enough, you are going to mix anyway.
Your solution seems clear and simple. Sell or give away the "variabilis".


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

i'm in socal and have a few 'extra' tanks set up i was planning on using as growouts for future froglets. if you like, i'll adopt the possible variabilis and give him/her a nice home to live alone in. 

other possibility, as was mentioned, petco $1/gal is going until july 15th. you could get a 10 gal for $10, have a glass lid cut for $6, and keep him set up yourself. i could even give you some plant cuttings if you want to meet up next week.

-brett


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

lol I love the reactions I got..


@Pumilo: that is effectively what I am asking for, although I'd rather sell the pumilio's (i much prefer the coloring on the variabilis). I just used the controversial title to get some attention to the thread, but I guess I should have known that it means everybody would come in on the offensive 



before I get flamed....my OP was a half-hearted joke; my "solutions" are my temporary conditions. As I said, I have no issues with mixing when done right but I don't know enough about the frogs to do so yet...so I'm looking to sell either/or/all of my frogs and to buy a 1.2 set for my other tank. Am I to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in this because I don't have a positive ID on my locales?




Anyway to move this thread back on track....I read that Imitators have been proven to be MONOGAMOUS breeders?? 

JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Doesn't this mean that we should NOT keep such species in anything but 1.1 ratios ? Otherwise I can see the unaccepted ones having stress/psychological issues....especially if kept in trios; talk about a third wheel!

Are there other species besides imitators that are like this? Is there a list or reference somewhere so I know what frogs I should avoid keeping in trios?

EDIT: The link is titled weird, but it works.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

EvilLost said:


> Am I to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in this because I don't have a positive ID on my locales?


No. There are "serious" keepers who have big hearts to take your frogs in and give them a home (in fact, seems like you've already had one offer). You ARE to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in breeding your frogs because they don't have a positive ID (may be interested in breeding your pumilio and keeping all the offspring separate from any other pumilio)....



EvilLost said:


> my "solutions" are my temporary conditions.


So was mine....



EvilLost said:


> Anyway to move this thread back on track....I read that Imitators have been proven to be MONOGAMOUS breeders??
> 
> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> 
> ...


"Proven" is a weird word. And I'm pretty sure the term "monogamous" doesn't mean quite what you're thinking. I'm not sure I would expect imitators to keep a partner for life, but yes, it has been suggested that imitators will focus on one partner at a time (unlike, for instance, my fantastica, who breed with whatever frog is most interested at the time). I've discouraged people from keeping imitators in groups (and especially trios) for quite some time now.... 

My question is: how is this getting back on track? I thought you said you were working with pumilio and variabilis.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

the title is begging for negative attention


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> lol I love the reactions I got..
> 
> EDIT: The link is titled weird, but it works.


lol I love the reactions I got.. This is just wrong in more ways than I care to comment on.



Erikb3113 said:


> the title is begging for negative attention


The link is titled weird, but it works.
the title is begging for negative attention
Agreed. The title is ill thought out and invites negative attention. If you really want help, ask a mod to shut this down and start a real adoption thread or a for sale ad.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This appears to be an advert and should be moved to the classifieds.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

lololol when I said 'link is titled weird' I meant the link to the study on monogamous imitators silly!

@SmackoftheGods: I see your point about monogamous; I was thinking mate for life. As for how it is getting back on track, it is because I'm trying to find a good frog for my 29gal.....and I'm determining if its best to just sell all 3 of my frogs and buy a 1.2 set of a different species or not; from my initial understanding of that article I was thinking I should avoid imitators etc.


....sometimes these boards are really disappointing. I can't name a single other animal board that treats a topic with such hostility and negativity. Yea my original thread title was meant to catch some attention, but damn it was a joke....

I'll just post a "standard" for sale/trade ad sheesh!


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Sorry, I was just trying to help dude. No hostility intended. My take is that if you want to mix your frogs, thats your business. I was only concerned that you may be selling "cristobals" when that's not what you have. I hate to see people get duped. 

I offered what I have to help. I don't know what else you're looking for?

-brett


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

EvilLost said:


> lololol when I said 'link is titled weird' I meant the link to the study on monogamous imitators silly!
> 
> @SmackoftheGods: I see your point about monogamous; I was thinking mate for life. As for how it is getting back on track, it is because I'm trying to find a good frog for my 29gal.....and I'm determining if its best to just sell all 3 of my frogs and buy a 1.2 set of a different species or not; from my initial understanding of that article I was thinking I should avoid imitators etc.
> 
> ...


I generally advise not keeping Ranitomeya in 1.2 trios in general.... Many Ranitomeya don't exhibit the same monogamous tendencies that imitators do, but that doesn't mean that in a 1.2 setting there will not be competition for sexual partners. Pumilio often do well in 1.2 trios, but I doubt if your 29 gallon is well suited to accomodate such a trio (IMO, it would be INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a 29 gallon that is well suited to accomodate a trio of pumilio).

There is a fact that I think you may be over looking, and it may be very disappointing to you. Whether or not it seems fair, the frogs you have are only worth of what those you're offering think that worth is. Because your frogs have an ambiguous history at best, the value that other froggers are likely to give your frogs is rather low. I suspect it's unlikely that many people would be interested in paying what you believe your pumilio to be worth. I also suspect that it's unlikely that many people would be interested in trading, for your pumilio, their frogs that _do_ have a documented lineage. Point is, I suspect you could give them away (Brett has already volunteered to take your variabilis), or maybe sell them at a very reasonable price, but you shouldn't expect a full trade of a trio for a trio, or to make enough money to buy a trio of the frogs you're looking for (I'm not saying it _won't_ happen, but if you _expect_ it to happen I suspect there's a high probability of disappointment).

Some thoughts....


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I didn't expect to sell them for the same price as frogs with known heritage....but I am also not necessarily looking for frogs with known heritage, either.


I'm fine with trading my higher value frogs for lower value frogs or throwing some cash in the mix...but no, I have no intention of giving away the frogs or selling them at some ridiculous price just because their locale can't be guaranteed. I'm sure I can find other more casual froggers who don't care about locales or don't know the locales of their frogs either....I have actually gotten quite a number of PMs 


@Btcope: my response about hostility wasn't aimed at you


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I generally advise not keeping Ranitomeya in 1.2 trios in general.... Many Ranitomeya don't exhibit the same monogamous tendencies that imitators do, but that doesn't mean that in a 1.2 setting there will not be competition for sexual partners. Pumilio often do well in 1.2 trios, but I doubt if your 29 gallon is well suited to accomodate such a trio (IMO, it would be INCREDIBLY difficult to set up a 29 gallon that is well suited to accomodate a trio of pumilio).
> 
> Some thoughts....



Thanks for this advice. That is what I was getting at with the article I posted earlier...it would seem that when keeping trios (or really any non 1:1 small population) we should avoid monogamous mating species. Although I was mistakenly thinking of "lifelong" partners, the damage is the same (although the duration is shorter) if that third frog is being ignored for a breeding season.


I don't follow your comment about the pumiliio's though...what do they require that other frogs don't ? Why would you say my tank isn't appropriate for them (specifically that is)?


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

EvilLost said:


> Thanks for this advice. That is what I was getting at with the article I posted earlier...it would seem that when keeping trios (or really any non 1:1 small population) we should avoid monogamous mating species. Although I was mistakenly thinking of "lifelong" partners, the damage is the same (although the duration is shorter) if that third frog is being ignored for a breeding season.
> 
> 
> I don't follow your comment about the pumiliio's though...what do they require that other frogs don't ? Why would you say my tank isn't appropriate for them (specifically that is)?


The danger does not come from a frog being left out of breeding. The danger comes from aggression. It seems that when there is an odd man (woman) out that increases (significantly) the aggression occurring in the tank. I.e. In a 1.2 setting I find it rather common that both females will attempt to assert their dominance over the other to determine which will be able to breed with the male. This was happening not too long ago in my R. Benedicta tank. Aggression stopped entirely when I added another proven pair to my original 1.2 trio.

pumilio are obligate egg feeders. Unlike other frogs in the hobby, pumilio tads cannot be cared for outside of the tank (at least, without taking extreme measures). This means that the space requirements for pumilio are going to be significantly different than most other frogs. 10 gallons of space per frog is more than likely not enough. In regards to why I don't think your (specifically) tank would be adequate, it's simple. I question the ability of most old timer froggers to set up a 29 gallon tank that is suitable for a trio of pumilio (not saying it can't be done... I just haven't ever seen it). You haven't been in the hobby very long, meaning it's highly unlikely that you've developed the skills to set up that 29 gallon tank adequately for a trio of pumilio. I don't mean for you to take offense at this, we all started some where, but that's how I see it.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

The OP really amuses me. So you are pro mixing but can't figure out what to do with the frogs you got for free but refuse to give them up for free despite the fact that it may be better for the animal's welfare? Then you show a dazzling display of ignorance regarding the frogs you do have but then have the balls to go around and give advice, which I'm guessing is parroted from posts you've read from people who actually know what the hell they are talking about, without really understanding what you are parroting. You are being given information by people who know better than you do and the opportunity to remove a burden from yourself and yet you still bitch and moan about the supposed hostility on this forum. I happen to know Jake and Doug to be nice people and very patient especially with newcomers, something we don't have in common, and you've managed to irritate them. Unbelievable. You think the members of this forum have mistreated you? Why don't you take your nonsense over to dartfrogz sweetheart.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

fleshfrombone said:


> The OP really amuses me. So you are pro mixing but can't figure out what to do with the frogs you got for free but refuse to give them up for free despite the fact that it may be better for the animal's welfare? Then you show a dazzling display of ignorance regarding the frogs you do have but then have the balls to go around and give advice, which I'm guessing is parroted from posts you've read from people who actually know what the hell they are talking about, without really understanding what you are parroting. You are being given information by people who know better than you do and the opportunity to remove a burden from yourself and yet you still bitch and moan about the supposed hostility on this forum. I happen to know Jake and Doug to be nice people and very patient especially with newcomers, something we don't have in common, and you've managed to irritate them. Unbelievable. You think the members of this forum have mistreated you? Why don't you take your nonsense over to dartfrogz sweetheart.


I happen to know Ryan.... This is a pretty mild post....


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@SmackoftheGods: thanks for your USEFUL input. You are of course, assuming that I intend to breed them...which I don't. If it happens naturally, that is wonderful but I have absolutely no intention of breeding nor of pulling tads (of course I say that now....if I end up in the situation I might end pulling them )

I've read pumilio are very hard to breed, and like I said that isn't much of my intent at all. I am setting up a "display" tank for my bedroom. You are right that I am new to the dart frog hobby; I don't take offense at all to your comment, I appreciate candid facts. In regards to the breeding issue though...doesn't that mean I would just need more breeding spots? Or would they not use them if they were too close to eachother? Anyway, this is ultimately a "display" tank and i'm not too fond of my current pumilio colors...I'll just try to avoid trading for other pumilios.


@fleshfrombone: LoL!!!!!! First off, DUH I won't give up the frogs for free. There is absolutely no reason for me to do so. If you actually READ my posts you would realize that I am I keeping them in proper housing. They might not be in IDEAL housing but that is not the same thing.

Secondly, I don't give a flying $#($ what you or anybody else *THINKS*. These boards and the US members MOSTLY (read: NOT ALL) think that mixing is bad. IT IS NOT A FACT. THIS IS AN OPINION. There ARE advanced factors involved when mixing that can adversely affect the animals, but these factors can be addressed just as any husbandry issue must be addressed when dealing with a single animal; they are simply more complex. The issue of keeping locales pure versus mixing is one of opinion; I have yet to see a single "fact" on this matter. Perhaps once this is (somehow) firmly established and the international scientific and hobbyist community agrees, you can convince me. Until then, its just opinion. Not to mention that I see no reason why everybody speaks of them as being mutually exclusive...they don't have to be.

Thirdly, the issues involved in mixing animals are present REGARDLESS OF THE ANIMALS INVOLVED. If you are mixing frogs, you have to deal with the same general concepts as if you are mixing any other reptiles, amphibians, or whatnot. The specifics involved may be different, and because I'm new to frogs, I do not know them yet (which I have said _at least twice_ in this thread alone). I have been keeping all sorts of other animals for over 8+ years now and have been building enclosures for them for roughly that same length of time. *Just because I am new TO FROGS does not mean that I do not have an understanding of generalized concepts* like aggression, stress, territorial control, surface area, space usage, etc etc etc. These boards like to think that just because you are new to frogs, it means you are inept/incompetent/unable to do things. I've been successfully keeping ALL sorts of other herps for over 8 years now, I'm quite sure I can manage the frogs. Yes, they are different than other herps; whats your point? All animals are different from one another, frogs are nothing special.

And lastly, its funny that you rant about me "parroting" when that is exactly what you are doing. You didn't actually express a single point in your entire rant besides attacking me for being pro-mixing. You said that:

"so you are pro mixing but can't figure out what..." <--what does being pro-mixing have to do in ANY way with figuring out what to do with the frogs? How is this in any way related? Just because someone is conceptually pro-mixing does not mean that they are automatically an expert in this field...why would you come to that conclusion? Makes no sense.


Fleshfrombone you are truly the posterchild for dendroboard. There is a ton of great information here and some really useful posters (@Ed and SmackoftheGods off the top of my head, I know there are others . However, it is the hostility that detracts new people from the hobby....maybe thats what you want? I don't know. What I do know is that I am a member of countless other forums for several other animal communities and the attitude that is found on dendroboards does not exist on *ANY* of the other boards. 

*Disagreements happen everywhere, but the personal attacks especially ones based on opinion or speculation are just childish and totally destroy the credibility and respect that the other members of the forum have established.*


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Well.. it seems the controversy took a little longer to appear and since I have been mentioned let me address some things... 



EvilLost said:


> @fleshfrombone: LoL!!!!!! First off, DUH I won't give up the frogs for free. There is absolutely no reason for me to do so. If you actually READ my posts you would realize that I am I keeping them in proper housing. They might not be in IDEAL housing but that is not the same thing.


Hmm.. yet you want help for free... I'd be willing to act as a consultant for subsequent enclosure set up and design. Post where you are located and I'll give you a quote for travel, housing along with an hourly rate. 



EvilLost said:


> Secondly, I don't give a flying $#($ what you or anybody else *THINKS*. These boards and the US members MOSTLY (read: NOT ALL) think that mixing is bad. IT IS NOT A FACT. THIS IS AN OPINION. There ARE advanced factors involved when mixing that can adversely affect the animals, but these factors can be addressed just as any husbandry issue must be addressed when dealing with a single animal; they are simply more complex. The issue of keeping locales pure versus mixing is one of opinion; I have yet to see a single "fact" on this matter. Perhaps once this is (somehow) firmly established and the international scientific and hobbyist community agrees, you can convince me. Until then, its just opinion. Not to mention that I see no reason why everybody speaks of them as being mutually exclusive...they don't have to be.


So it is clear that you have totally ignored everything I've written on multispecies enclosures. In some cases, multispecies enclosures are not a negative but in your example here, this is a negative. I strongly suggest reviewing territorial and behaviorally issue between species that share one or more habitat requirements. These issues can be seen across multiple taxa and families.. 



EvilLost said:


> Thirdly, the issues involved in mixing animals are present REGARDLESS OF THE ANIMALS INVOLVED. If you are mixing frogs, you have to deal with the same general concepts as if you are mixing any other reptiles, amphibians, or whatnot.


Actually, no you are not. You cannot make the direct comparision between reptiles in general and dendrobatids with regards to mixing.. as an example of the flaw in this argument, unless they are opiphophagus, you can mix snakes of the same locality (and this is an assumption based on the hope that you may have some understanding of the risk of novel pathogens (but I'm not really hopeful due to your total misconstrueing the of general topic in this post)) and not have territorial issues. I would be very interested if you can show document territorial guarding by a snake (and territorial does not egg or nest guarding by snakes like pythonidae or Ophiphophagus...). 





EvilLost said:


> The specifics involved may be different, and because I'm new to frogs, I do not know them yet (which I have said _at least twice_ in this thread alone). I have been keeping all sorts of other animals for over 8+ years now and have been building enclosures for them for roughly that same length of time. *Just because I am new TO FROGS does not mean that I do not have an understanding of generalized concepts* like aggression, stress, territorial control, surface area, space usage, etc etc etc. These boards like to think that just because you are new to frogs, it means you are inept/incompetent/unable to do things. I've been successfully keeping ALL sorts of other herps for over 8 years now, I'm quite sure I can manage the frogs. Yes, they are different than other herps; whats your point? All animals are different from one another, frogs are nothing special.


Actually based on your comments, I'm not sure that you understand it at all. Claiming x or y number of years doesn't indicate anything about experience. This is particularly suspicious given all of the issues with enclosure set-up that you have posted about since you joined the forum (this can be seen by anyone reviewing your all of the threads you have started). You could simply be claiming that experience or even hiding a large mortality events.. 



EvilLost said:


> And lastly, its funny that you rant about me "parroting" when that is exactly what you are doing. You didn't actually express a single point in your entire rant besides attacking me for being pro-mixing. You said that:


If you are parroting, then you have done a poor job of even reading the correct material as you have it wrong in general and specific. 



EvilLost said:


> Fleshfrombone you are truly the posterchild for dendroboard. There is a ton of great information here and some really useful posters (@Ed and SmackoftheGods off the top of my head, I know there are others . However, it is the hostility that detracts new people from the hobby....maybe thats what you want? I don't know. What I do know is that I am a member of countless other forums for several other animal communities and the attitude that is found on dendroboards does not exist on *ANY* of the other boards.
> 
> *Disagreements happen everywhere, but the personal attacks especially ones based on opinion or speculation are just childish and totally destroy the credibility and respect that the other members of the forum have established.  *


If you are going to pull me into the argument, it would be very useful if you bothered to actually read what I was written instead of acting like a troll trying to stir up the mixing crowd. 

You asked for help, it was given. You have misquoted or misunderstood information, and as a result have roused the ire of a few people. You have referenced people and gotten thier information wrong... so you shouldn't be surprised that you are getting heat from the people. I wasn't bothering with the thread until it was noted you were referencing me incorrectly. 

In fact that the frogs can't be correctly identified to a type and import year is a problem as it can cause signficant issues with the genetics of the population(s). I have written on this extensively including citing relevent literature to support my position. The frogs have a severely reduced value because of it so you shouldn't expect a good deal on them unless you are going to be dishonest and offer them to someone with incorrect information. A potential risk since you don't share identity or location on the forum. 

If you want to blow your top, take it to the dome...

Some comments, 

Ed


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

By the threads the OP has started, I'd say we are barely getting our feet wet.

Let me put my personal experiences in prespective for what it's worth:

I've been into snakes since I was ten and to whet my appatite until I was old enough to keep herps on my own, about fourteen, responsibily, I read a lot and asked tons of questions. I am now 29, my oldest snake is twelve years old now. 

The ball pythons are together in their own cage and my other which is a different genus has his own pad.

My frogs are seperated from their respected species. The Cobalts have their's and the Lecu's their own viv. 

I'm strong against hybridization with animals.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

LoL ok well I'm done with these forums. I was not aware other forums existed but now that I am, I will move on.


@Ed: I expected a little bit better from you honestly. You read my post with a clear bias and all your answers reflect that.



Ed said:


> Hmm.. yet you want help for free...
> 
> *I was under the impression that was the point of these forums.*
> 
> ...



@Ed: I'm sorry I complimented you and thereby dragged you down into this thread...but your response certainly ruined the image I had of you!



EDIT: Just to further clarify on the mixing animals vs mixing frogs issue: what factor exists with frogs that is not present (or must at least be considered, even if moot) for all other animal species? Things that I mentioned before like diet, stress, territory, behavior, usable tank space ('canopy' approach), etc etc are all things that you have to think about whether or not you have frogs. I just can't think of what makes frogs so "special"?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

God, I wish I could get the last three minutes of my life back! Sometimes I think we have to learn that people that don't matter, don't matter. Let her screw up someone else's day.

Richard.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

EvilLost: Best of luck finding a home for your frogs and with dealing with some members of this forum. I assure you, we're not all like this.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Arpeggio said:


> EvilLost: Best of luck finding a home for your frogs and with dealing with some members of this forum. I assure you, we're not all like this.


While I agree that most people in this hobby have an.....interesting way of dealing with things, and people can seem hostile, (okay, it's much worse than that) I think EvilLost asked for it. Just look at the title. He knows, you know, I know, and Ed Kowalski knows the response this thread was going to get. It's just a poorly planned attempt for attention. I mean, COME ON. If I wanted attention, my plan would at least involve some moderately deep flesh wounds or a daring daylight robbery with some exsanguinated prostitutes in the back seat. But that's a story for another day.
This thread-and the author of it-are all about attention.
For whatever reason, he wanted to be scolded, and obviously doesn't care about the well being of the frogs. He's been offered several good suggestions, and has ignored all of them. It's people like this that make responsible hobbiests look bad.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Mapp said:


> If I wanted attention, my plan would at least involve some moderately deep flesh wounds or a daring daylight robbery with some exsanguinated prostitutes in the back seat.


Hey, troll, it's common knowledge, on this forum, that dead hookers go in the grimy bathtub. And I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that no one wants to rehash this argument, once again~!!!


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

Take note how defensive EvilLost has been. Not only has he ignored very good advice, he can't or is willing to accept his husbantry is incorrect. Sadly people are not will to acknowledge faults and errors so they either run away... or attempt to boost their ego, or lack of, I suppose in this senario.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

No need to keep beating on him, there isn't any real value or point to it. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

EvilLost said:


> EDIT: Just to further clarify on the mixing animals vs mixing frogs issue: what factor exists with frogs that is not present (or must at least be considered, even if moot) for all other animal species? Things that I mentioned before like diet, stress, territory, behavior, usable tank space ('canopy' approach), etc etc are all things that you have to think about whether or not you have frogs. I just can't think of what makes frogs so "special"?


Actually no I didn't respond with any bias, I simply responded to the information you had provided. 

I didn't bother to read through your post as it was tedious to try and seperate your comments from my stuff even though you highlighted it to emphasize it. It is clear that you don't understand multispecies issues, as you totally missed the mark in my post. 

Actually, one of the examples I gave doesn't nest together.. and you completely didn't understand the question.... I was asking for an example of snakes that defend a territory from other snakes.. I excluded nest defense as that technically isn't territorial behavior. 

As for what has to be present or absent, is a clear indication that you don't understand multispecies enclosures. Your throwing out some general comments in an attempt to show that you know what you are talking about but if you understood it, you would have tossed out the specifics. 

I'll give you a hint.. what is the problem with attempting mixed (versus multispecies) exhibits with hummingbirds?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> Secondly, I don't give a flying $#($ what you or anybody else *THINKS*. These boards and the US members MOSTLY (read: NOT ALL) think that mixing is bad. IT IS NOT A FACT. THIS IS AN OPINION. There ARE advanced factors involved when mixing that can adversely affect the animals, but these factors can be addressed just as any husbandry issue must be addressed when dealing with a single animal; they are simply more complex. The issue of keeping locales pure versus mixing is one of opinion; I have yet to see a single "fact" on this matter. Perhaps once this is (somehow) firmly established and the international scientific and hobbyist community agrees, you can convince me. Until then, its just opinion. Not to mention that I see no reason why everybody speaks of them as being mutually exclusive...they don't have to be..[/U][/B]


Coming from the wife of a very outspoken frogger you should give a flying **** as you are not helping yourself in any way here. The bulk of this hobbies advancements and work to push this hobby forward are coming from US froggers that said outside help is present but your basing the thoughts of mixing on those who havent tried to prove its faults.




EvilLost said:


> Disagreements happen everywhere, but the personal attacks especially ones based on opinion or speculation are just childish and totally destroy the credibility and respect that the other members of the forum have established.[/U][/B]


Those who have come at you have no reasons to worry about their credibility as you have proven yourself unworthy of anyones help. Most members offering help would have given up a frog rather than threaten to mix, if its that bad on you that a larger temp viv is not possible perhalps you shouldnt have any of them.



EvilLost said:


> LoL ok well I'm done with these forums. I was not aware other forums existed but now that I am, I will move on.


You have no idea what awaits you on the other dart boards, DB is usually where froggers go to escape the living hell of a few peoples uncensored rants on topics and people like you. Good luck and remember this hobby is still small enough word gets around.

Elizabeth Lawrence


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> You have no idea what awaits you on the other dart boards, DB is usually where froggers go to escape the living hell of a few peoples uncensored rants on topics and people like you.


DB is by far the kindest and gentlest of the major dart forums, I would love to see this guy post at the Den...


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

I read this thread from the moment it started and told myself you aren't going to comment. You guys hit the nail on the head. The threat of mixing if no help was given, then teehehe oh it's just a joke when called on it, the arrogance and audacity to lecture much more experienced members after being given SOLID advice and even an offer to take on the odd frog out. The response basically boiled down to go piss up a rope, I know what I'm doing. I still managed to say nothing.... Until I did a quick search of the OP's posting history. Giving advice and talking down to other members all the while having little to no experience on the subject matter. You are in no position to tell anyone anything about dart frogs. Ed, Mike's wife, Fishr, and Mapp took the words right out of my mouth.

EL, clearly you do care what I think, if you didn't you wouldn't have written me such a nice love letter. I've kept dart frogs for over 15 years (no I'm not an expert) so I don't need your "insights" into their husbandry. When someone new comes by and has something interesting to share that makes sense and is helpful I'm all ears. Even if they aren't and are humble enough to take the advice given I'm stoked. You aren't one of them. Flex nuts elsewhere because we aren't impressed. Like the others have said, good luck on dartfrogz, that place is a shark tank chomping at the opportunity for a minnow like yourself to weigh in.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I miss him already (wipes tear).


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

lol you guys CRACK me up. seriously.


for ALL of you who are still attacking me, it is pretty clear none of you read my earlier post on this thread, so I will copy it for your clarification. 

Furthermore, for the ton of claiming I have incorrect husbandry, care to point it out? 



> I just used the controversial title to get some attention to the thread, but I guess I should have known that it means everybody would come in on the offensive
> 
> before I get flamed....my OP was a half-hearted joke; *my "solutions" are my temporary conditions. *As I said, I have no issues with mixing when done right but I don't know enough about the frogs to do so yet...so* I'm looking to sell either/or/all of my frogs and to buy a 1.2 set for my other tank. *Am I to understand that none of the "serious" froggers would be interested in this because I don't have a positive ID on my locales?


In case you still don't get it, I'm not actually mixing the frogs because I don't have enough knowledge on the specifics to do so properly. Yet you guys are attacking me repeatedly for mixing? Reading comprehension is not very strong around here...

@Ed: i clearly pointed out the flaws in your argument. not my problem if you didn't read it. and i dont know and dont care about issues with hummingbirds, once again you do not understand my point. i dont deal with hummingbirds and so i dont know the specifics regarding them, just as i have REPEATEDLY said I dont know the specifics about frogs. that does not change the fact that i DO have a GENERAL understanding of relevant concepts. I dont get why you keep avoiding/playing around this fact, esp with some of your "examples"

You are right I didn't understand your snake example but once again, so what? I'm sure you know more than i do about these things and can find examples all day long....whats your point? That doesnt' change the fact that what I said originally is still true: there exist general factors that are the same for ANY multispecies habitat. 

@fleshfrombone: I never gave you nor anyone else in this thread any advice on how to keep their frogs. I'm not the one "flexing nuts" its all you elitist on this board. I have not attacked any of you, I have not told any of you how to keep your frogs. 

@Tony: if that is true then perhaps the majority of dart froggers are assholes. I havent run into this problem in any of the many snake forums I attend, nor with chameleon keepers or invert keepers. Odd how that works?

@poison beauties: I agree most of the advancement in this hobby is probably coming from US froggers. So? That doesn't justify their attitude imo.

@fishr: Just like every other person on this thread, you vaguely say that I have bad husbandry or I'm being defensive/etc. What part of my husbandry is incorrect exactly?

@Arpeggio: thanks. I have actually received PMs from several nice people and those who feel the same about this topic but don't want to post in fear of community harassment. I just don't get bullied so easily o


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Nothing further to be served here by leaving this open.

It's now closed.

s


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