# 75g for beginner?



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

I know this is a very broad question but I was wondering if starting with a 75g tank (48x18x18) would be too much for a newb as opposed to something in the 20-29g range. I know the start up costs will be greater but how would the up keep be compared to a smaller tank? Coming from a background in fish I know that bigger is usually better and easier and more forgiving but does this hold true with frogs as well? As far as what frogs I am looking at, not 100% sure at this point, I still have LOTS of research and planning to do but I would like one that I can keep a nice size group of. Yeah, I know, pretty vague


----------



## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

I don't see any problem going big for your first. You probably want to have it up and "running" for a month or two before adding frogs just in case there are any problems or anything you want to change. One of my first tanks I set up was a 90g and never had any problem. 
Scott


----------



## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

Also being from a fish background I will warn you that bigger is not easier in frogs, maybe even harder just because you'll have more $$$ involved in setup. On the other hand, 75G sounds awesome to start with, what are your stocking thoughts?


----------



## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

Bigger will not be easier (but not necessarily harder), but it will put fewer limitations on your design. A fairly large water feature can be added, as well as a number of larger and taller plants that are hard to incorporate in smaller viv's. In addition, you will be able to put more frogs in a larger tank.

Other than that, you probably will be spending more, but not exponentially so.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree that it is not a bad idea. My one concern is that with a big tank, if you mess up, you mess uo big, with a smaller tank you can afford a bit more trial and error. But with the proper research and budget it should be fine.


----------



## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

I don't think there is too much you can mess up on when building a viv. At least nothing that can't be fixed pretty cheaply and quickly. You just have to go slow and make sure you understand the correct way to do it.


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I think a big first viv is a great way to go. It will grow more microfauna and, designed properly, provide more microclimates for the frogs. A larger tank would also have less of a tendency to be overplanted, as is the case with many 'first vivs'. As far as frogs go, auratus, leucs, and imitators would be a good group frog choice.


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks everyone. It is a tough decision for me at this point. I have the 75g set up with FW fish at the moment but I have been debating taking it down. The only thing is I have a couple bichirs in the tank and one I have had for like 5 years so it would be really hard to get rid of him and there is not room in my house for another big tank. I also have a 10 gallon soon to be upgraded to a 26 gallon SW tank so I think a third tank full of frogs would be really pushing it with the wifey. I guess I do have so much research to do that I have lots of time to debate and plea. Thanks for everyone's help so far.


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, I have myself about 75% convinced to tear down the FW tank and convert to a viv and try my hand at frogs. I just need to find suitable homes for the fish in the tank.

The next hardest part I think is trying to decide which frog I want to keep. There are a couple suggestions above which I am looking in to. Any more suggestions? I am really liking D. Leucomelas, at least as far as the looks department is concerned.

And a quick question, how many frogs are considered a group? Are we talking about 3-5 or can some frogs be kept in larger groups, like say 7-8. or is that just too many? Also, is it problematic to add new frogs to tanks that already have frogs or is that different from frog type to frog type? 

One last question/concern. I do need a frog that is not skiddish. I have a 2 year old little boy so you can imagine there will be some glass tapping despite my best efforts to teach him not to.

Thanks again for the help. I look forward to getting in to the hobby asap.


----------



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

About half way down this thread there is a section on frogs that are good to start off with.

http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic38749.html


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Ok, decided that I am going with a group of D. Leucomelas, probably 5 of them. I am in the process of looking for a home for my FW fish so I can empty the tank. I will probably attempt to tackle a GF background and include the greatly debated water feature but I will stay on the small side, less than a gallon worth of water. As far as substrate, here is my first question. I just want to make sure I get it right. Right now unless I am advised otherwise, my substrate will consist of Eco Earth Coconut Substrate mixed with Zilla Fir and Sphagnum Moss Mix. Now should I throw in some larger pieces of bark like fir or coconut bark? Oh yeah, and LECA for underneath it all. That is where I am at at this point in my planning process.


----------



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

you could definetily do it, but you would have to do lots of planning. it may be better to start off smaller, the first tank most people (not all) make isn't as good as the ones down the road. you just learn lots in the process. you can read everything you can find about making a viv, but there will still be things that didn't come up in the reading that you need to learn from experience. patience also comes into play, if you are willing to take a few months to work on it and ask questions along the way and not just "wing it" the tank will turn out better. so...it's up to you!

as far as substrate, i use coco fiber from dartfrogdepot.com and i really love it. they also have this stuff like bark, forget what it's called, but it's darker and looks more like wood chips that i mix in too. i don't know if it was just my order (probably not), but they come full of sprigs and tropical woodlice. i don't use it for the looks, but the bugs will be a nice snack for your frogs, especially if you let them establish themselves. good luck!


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Oh yeah, I hope I don't sound like I am going to be rushing. I am planning on taking my time and after the tank is set up allowing it to mature for at least a couple months or more possibly. I want to make sure that I am keeping the viv healthy before adding the frogs. I would feel horrible if I killed them off due to my impatience not to mention the $200+ I would be out if they croaked (pun intended :lol: ).

And thanks for the substrate advice. There are so many options and so many different opinions it is hard to sort through it all.


----------



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

it doesn't sound like you are rushing at all, and i think a 75 gallon would be fine for you. you seem like you will do research and take your time. 

i always try to buy fish too and somehow the tanks end up with frogs in them instead  
i just need to stop buying fish!


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Yeah...I still have a SW tank to satisfy the fish needs...lol


----------



## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Nubster said:


> Yeah...I still have a SW tank to satisfy the fish needs...lol


Before I decided to keep dart frogs I had a list of SW fish to add to my tank...majestic angle, flame hawk, Powder blue tang. Now that list got pushed back for a while since I started this hobby. The last fish I purchased for my SW was 1 week before I decided to set up a viv was a maroon clown...that was back in March. A friend just gave me her FW fish (neons, glo lights, cories) so that has to satisfy my fish wants for a while...my frog wants are much stronger at the moment.
Candy


----------



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

never tried sw, it seems to have a lot of similiarities with darts and viv keeping though. i always wanted to get some shrimp, never cared much for the fish, but the sexy shrimp and blood shrimp always caught my eye. what kind of sw stuff do you have?


----------



## catfish (Mar 28, 2008)

After months of research about PDF my 11 year old son and I put together a 30 gallon tank for two auratus frogs. My son has been sorely disappointed. Despite our best efforts to make their home fabulous - ABG mix substrate, hydroton, lots of plants, leaf litter, mopani wood, and a waterfall -which I probably wouldn't do again, they only come out when the house is absolutely quiet. It's only been 4 months, but I read threads where people say their frogs come out when they feed them - but not mine. Our friends joke with us about the great looking viv with the non-existent frogs! So... I'm not so sure PDFs will hold the attention of a two year old.


----------



## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

otis07 said:


> what kind of sw stuff do you have?


Naso Tang, Niger Trigger, maroon clown, damsels. I recently lost my Passer Angel and Huma Huma Trigger. 

Nubster - I don't think you will be disappointed in getting into darts at all. I spend so much time just watching the frogs and laughing at their antics. Not to mention the water changes are a whole lot easier. 
Candy


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

My SW tank has no fish. Just a few corals and snails. I do plan on a couple crabs and shrimp and maybe a fish or two but not until I upgrade from the 10g I have now to the 26g tank I have in the basement.

As far as my 2 year old, not so much worried about keeping his attention at this time as I am keeping him away from the frogs...lol...he likes to tap the glass on the fish tank despite my best efforts to teach him not to. 2 year olds I tell ya...  

Personally I don't think I would be disappointed at all. It will take me back to my childhood back in the days when I would almost always have a couple critters being kept in various tanks in my room unbeknown to my mom.


----------



## catfish (Mar 28, 2008)

I absolutely don't want to discourage you from getting frogs - I just wish I could see mine once in a while! I think you're smart starting out with a 75 g - just like with fish - the bigger the better. Animals in captivity deserve as much room as you can provide.


----------



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

yeah, i'de say go for it. those are going to be some lucky froggies. your sw tank sounds cool nubster, i personally like reefs a lot more than fish only tanks.


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

As soon as I start collecting supplies I'll get a build thread started too. And yes, I'll keep it up from start to finish...lol


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Well, seems that I have found a home for my fish so next week I should be able to empty the tank and start cleaning and setting up for frogs. I still need to design and decide on how I am laying things out but that should be part of the fun stuff. I do have a question about lighting. Right now over my FW tank I have a 48" shop light with 2 FW fish bulbs (6500k or 6700K). I figure that at the least I could get another one and have a total of 4 bulbs. Would this be enough for a moderately planted tank? I do want some moss which I read need higher lighting. I also have a few 55/65 watt 6700k PC bulbs but need ballasts to run them as well as reflectors. How much of a step up would these be from the shop light? And when does the lighting for the plants become too much for the frogs?


----------



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

you don't even need another light, i have one standard florescent bulb (the 2$ ones from home depot) in most of my tanks. the others have 5.0's and plant bulbs, and the plants grow no better with those than the 2$ ones. there is probably minor differences, but imo it's not worth it. 4 bulbs would be kick ass lighting and you would be able to grow all sorts of moss and liverwort.


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Very good. That saves a lot of money. I think the fixture I currently have was $5 and the bulbs are less then $10 each so for another $25 I should be set. There is no reflector in the fixture I have though so I may pony up and order a couple of those from Hellolights.com or somewhere else if I can find cheaper.


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

How many GPH is appropriate for a small water fall? I would like a nice trickle rather than a fast flow.


----------



## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

otis07 said:


> i have one standard florescent bulb (the 2$ ones from home depot) in most of my tanks. the others have 5.0's and plant bulbs, and the plants grow no better with those than the 2$ ones.


Yes, regular floros of the correct color temperatures are just as effective as more spendy T-32 and T-40 flouros with names which imply they'll be better for plants. Flouros labeled cool (around 6000K) or warm (around 3500K) white will perform just as well as those marketed to be more appropriate for growing plants.

Plants only utilize narrow bandwidths of what the human eye can see. Bulbs with color temperatures around 6000 and 3500K provide light concentrated on bandwidths plants most efficiently utilize.

If you want more light and are willing to spend many times more money, T-5's are much more efficient than T-32 or T-40s - they produce much more photosynthetic light while producing less heat - relative to the usable light they produce. These fixtures are generally available only through pet stores and hydroponic stores. If you have several hundred dollars to throw into lighting, they are great, but othewrwise warm and/or cool white T-32 and T-40s from Home Depot or similar will do just fine.


----------



## Nubster (Jun 16, 2008)

Bichirs have a new home and the other remaining fish will be housed temporarily so cleaning and building can begin this weekend. Hoping to have frogs in the tank by end of August or beginning of September. I will start a new build thread as soon as I start.


----------



## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Awesome. It is so exciting when you start a new tank..with the help of one of our boardmembers, I am starting to rebuild my 37g this weekend as well. I can't wait to see your construction journal. 
Candy


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Good stuff. Id go ahead and start practicing FF culturing.


----------



## intelsuit (Jul 31, 2011)

Nubster said:


> I know this is a very broad question but I was wondering if starting with a 75g tank (48x18x18) would be too much for a newb as opposed to something in the 20-29g range. I know the start up costs will be greater but how would the up keep be compared to a smaller tank? Coming from a background in fish I know that bigger is usually better and easier and more forgiving but does this hold true with frogs as well? As far as what frogs I am looking at, not 100% sure at this point, I still have LOTS of research and planning to do but I would like one that I can keep a nice size group of. Yeah, I know, pretty vague


Do yourself a favor and plan plan then plan again. Think about the tank as a house. Setup the plumbing, electrical, etc first. Put large pieces of PVC along the back and corners to easily hide the wires or tubes. If you decide on a water feature then realize water will not stay exactly where you want it. It will settle all over the bottom of your tank.
Over support your false bottom if you decide to use one instead of LECA ( hydro ton)
And thoroughly read through any newbie threads here on dendroboard. There is a ton of great advice just waiting to be discovered.
Lastly, research it thoroughly on the web and ask around at your Local clubs or post questions here before starting it. You can avoid a lot of mistakes just by taking time and going slow. Frogs are very rewarding and fun but can be an expensive mistake if your tank is not setup properly.


----------



## intelsuit (Jul 31, 2011)

Nubster said:


> Well, I have myself about 75% convinced to tear down the FW tank and convert to a viv and try my hand at frogs. I just need to find suitable homes for the fish in the tank.
> 
> The next hardest part I think is trying to decide which frog I want to keep. There are a couple suggestions above which I am looking in to. Any more suggestions? I am really liking D. Leucomelas, at least as far as the looks department is concerned.
> 
> ...


Tincs or azures might be the best for this. Read through the care sheets first. Find the boldest frogs and go with them. Shy frogs you won't see with all the tapping plus tapping can cause stress which would not make for happy frogs. Scared frogs more tapping for frogs to come out more tapping more stress more hiding, seems like an endless cycle to me. The bolder the species the better in my humble opinion.


----------

