# Moss Experiments... Round 2!



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

Original "Moss Experiments" thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/33923-moss-experiments.html

I did another couple moss sanitizing experiments. We had feather moss, riccia, tropical moss, and spanish moss laying around - so we did our normal processing (found in the "moss" section of our website) to each.

1) Feather Moss is 100% successful in using 10% solution for 3-4 minutes. *VERY *mild color loss. We have only a little in stock - we plan on stocking this soon with our normal tropical moss.

2) Riccia - I tried this at 10% and it was fine. It lost color for a bit - but within 7 days it returned back to normal. We do not plan to market riccia yet because it seems that_ snails are to riccia as fish are to water_. Naturally snails in a vivarium are VERY bad for plants - so 'till we find a way to guarantee against snails - we won't be selling riccia for vivariums.

2.1) Riccia Again - If you are an idiot like me - you experiment a bit too much. We tried 20% bleach with riccia and we planned on trying it for 3 minutes. I've read that riccia is "super sensitive" to bleach on other threads - and I had my doubts. Well. As soon as I started this - we had a LG hatch. Without going on too long about it - it was a VERY strange/unexpected morph - and I got very excited. I completely forgot about the riccia 'till the FOLLOWING MORNING! _20% Bleach. 11 hours. Stupid._ The riccia was borderline WHITE when I woke up. I dumped out the bleach and rinsed out the riccia as best as I could. Now - much to my surprise 12 days later - the riccia is 100% BACK to it's full color - and flourishing.  Somehow the snails are slowly making a comeback too. 

3) Tropical moss - 10% for 3 minutes is cake. It looses a bit of color - but it returns within a week or so. We've extended bleaching for 5 minutes - but that makes it loose a bit more color and take about 14 days to return to full green color. Either one is safe for the moss - either one should help eliminate micro fauna.

4) Spanish moss - 10% for 3 minutes worked fine. It takes a bit to get it to green back up - but in my opinion - the benefits outweigh the risks. 

Hope this helps people who are wondering about processing plants/moss before introducing it to their vivariums. It may not kill every living organism - but this sure should help fight against any bad bacteria, unwanted mites, etc that can be found in just about any plant today.  *especially wild collected stuff*

Anyone who has anything to contribute - feel free.

-Mike

New England Herpetoculture - Home


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

Interesting. Thanks for sharing, and good luck with the snails! I'm in the market for riccia so tell us when you finish.


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## gillenws (Jul 13, 2009)

question... once you're done with the 3 mins what do you do? do you just take the moss out and let it dry off? or do you rinse it with clean water?


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

^^^ We rinse it out pretty heavily immediately after 3 minutes.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Could we get a pic of the Leopard Gecko that hatched during the riccia? Haha (aleast I'm assuming u ment Leopard Gecko when u said LG). This isn't really the right forum for it but I keep a lot of leopard morphs and this sounds interesting


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

HunterB said:


> Could we get a pic of the Leopard Gecko that hatched during the riccia? Haha (aleast I'm assuming u ment Leopard Gecko when u said LG). This isn't really the right forum for it but I keep a lot of leopard morphs and this sounds interesting





















Blizzard with solid black eyes... OR (much less likely) a Super Snow. We're not sure yet.
Father = Normal 
Mother = Snow

 Both parents must have been het blizzard or the father might have been het snow - but I had no idea. I've had the father for 7 years now with no other blizzard flukes.  It's cool tho since the other egg in that clutch was a snow - and there is a future possibility of them producing normal offspring as well. So we're getting snows, normals, AND blizzards from one pair.  Funny thing is - these two weren't even part of our breeding projects. Talk about lucky.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Blizzard with solid black eyes... OR (much less likely) a Super Snow. We're not sure yet.
> Father = Normal
> Mother = Snow
> 
> Both parents must have been het blizzard or the father might have been het snow - but I had no idea. I've had the father for 7 years now with no other blizzard flukes.  It's cool tho since the other egg in that clutch was a snow - and there is a future possibility of them producing normal offspring as well. So we're getting snows, normals, AND blizzards from one pair.  Funny thing is - these two weren't even part of our breeding projects. Talk about lucky.


Haha you need to produce another one like that and sell it to me
I got a rainwater female just itchin for a weird mate like that haha
I wonder what that'd do if it was bred to a R.A.P.T.O.R. because of their different eye colore...u gotta keep me updated though haha


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Nice leo!

looks like a super snow, if its a snow to a normal breeding theres no way it could be a blizzard unless both parents were 100% hets

There is a chance both parents were snows, if thats the case you get 50% snows and 50% super snows, plus blizzards dont have solid black eyes, super snows do. Snow blizzards do too though . . .

I have all the above mentioned morphs so if you want I can post comparision pics for you

current leo collection is at about 75 geckos, thats an estimate could be more lol


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Just read under the photos . . .

I would definetly say its a super snow then, if youre getting snows and supers out of the same clutch. Snows are co dominant and they can not be recessive. So the other parent could have been a low grade snow. A c grade snow and an a grade snow both have the same genetics , one just might be a little whiter.

Another note , blizzards tend to have a yellow tint to them too . . .


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

^^^ I've had that male for 7+ years. That would mean he's one of the first snows available since they've only been on the market for 7 years or so from what I understand.  The breeder of the snow says there's a chance she was het blizzard. 

I really don't know tho - only time will tell. We'll see how the next clutch looks.

I'm pretty sure Blizzards CAN have solid black eyes tho according to Luxurious Leopards... Although I don't think it's common - I do think it happens occasionally.

Weird situation.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Hmm , im going to double check on the blizzards with black eyes with a few other breders , cause now you got me curious lol.

Either way you'll know in about a week or two if its a super snow. If it darkens up then starts to break up into spots you know its a super snow , if it lightens up and maybe gets a slight yellow to it and no spots you know its a blizzard lol

Either way you look at it you got an amazing little gem of life there!

Hatching suprises is always fun and exciting, I hatched out two a couple weeks ago that have hearts on their backs . . .


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

I have two females set up on a 20gal, a rainwater and a regular..
There was a tangerine male in there but I lost him last year..
No I got 4 clutches from them, all I believe, from the normal and all gotmoldy eventually..
Was he infertile, or was it me or my girls? I plan on picking up another male this fall


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

were the eggs chalk white and healthy when laid? or did they get moldy after? during incubation?

and what did yu use to incubate them?


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Boy, did this get off topic.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

harrywitmore said:


> Boy, did this get off topic.


lol yeah it did.

We use the hatch media we sell on our site. No mold - healthy eggs.


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

Any progress on the riccia?


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah way off topic sorry lol


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

rollei said:


> Any progress on the riccia?


It's greened up more than ever - looking great. It's spreading pretty quickly.  It's def not "extremely sensitive" to bleach. It may lose it's green quickly - but it spreads wildly afterward.


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## rollei (Jun 4, 2009)

I mean, progress on eliminating the snails in the riccia so it can be sold.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

rollei said:


> I mean, progress on eliminating the snails in the riccia so it can be sold.


Ah. Well... No. 

I don't want to use chemicals... I'll prob get some aquarium de-snailer stuff that's safe for fish... But even then I'd need to be careful to make sure I rinse it all out heavily before selling it...

I'll deff be posting up when I have some available.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Yea
Sorry haha
Didn't mean to turn this into a leo thread
Sorry


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Most of the de-snailers sold in the pet trades are copper based , I know for inverts its lethal, so not to sure how springtails would do if theres some still left on it that could wash off into the substrate , or how toxic it is to the frogs, just something to consider . . .


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

So the snail eggs survived the bleaching??? Wow...add them to the survivor list with cockroaches.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

UmbraSprite said:


> So the snail eggs survived the bleaching??? Wow...add them to the survivor list with cockroaches.


Ya no kidding. I said to myself, "Well at least the snails will be gone!" Little did I know.  Even overnight they survived!



nathan said:


> Most of the de-snailers sold in the pet trades are copper based , I know for inverts its lethal, so not to sure how springtails would do if theres some still left on it that could wash off into the substrate , or how toxic it is to the frogs, just something to consider . . .


Yeah I know it. That's why I'm not promising any dates for riccia to be sold. I won't sell anything 'till I 100% know it's safe AND snail free... Which seems nearly impossible.

Anyone know of any organic snail pesticides?


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## Agreen (Jul 29, 2009)

A friend gave me ricci and java that was infested with snails and their eggs. I used a copper sulfate based snail killer medicine designed for freshwater aquariums. Copper is very toxic to invertebrates and quickly wipes out snails. Just soak you plants in the medicated water. I use 2X strength or more if I'm in a hurry. After soaking rinse the plants well water.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

^^^ Anyone have any info on how copper could react with PDFs? Obviously the riccia would be heavily rinsed & screened before adding it to any viv or selling it...


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## David Brahms (Oct 31, 2009)

Anyone look into potassium permanganate? It's known to be a very good slug and snail killer....it's a strong oxidizer that rinses away easily, and is used on plants for the purpose of killing these pests.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MeiKVR6 said:


> ^^^ Anyone have any info on how copper could react with PDFs? Obviously the riccia would be heavily rinsed & screened before adding it to any viv or selling it...


Copper is pretty toxic to frogs.. 
See SETAC 2002

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I would suggest being very careful with potassium permagonate as it is also very toxic to amphibians. 

Ed


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## dirtmonkey (Feb 10, 2007)

You might have to do a double-dip, killing off the adults, then waiting for eggs to hatch, and killing the young snails off before they are old enough to lay eggs themselves. Bleach might be too harsh on the plants for that, but- *Caffiene* is also a deadly toxin to snails and slugs. You might try a double-dip, but just using cool coffee, or dissolved vivarin or no-doz pills.

edit- It might be possible to just spray the plants with caffiene, but I don't know how long it takes to break down and disappear that way.

If you get snails again after repetitions, they're probably coming in some other way instead of being left alive on the plants.

I've also used iron based slug and snail bait. You can put it near the plants, doesn't have to actually touch them. The snails will be attracted off the plants to the bait, and die off before they can lay more eggs, until there are none left after a few weeks.

Iron sulfate is even used in food. Iron phosphate bait is supposed to be harmless to wildlife, but I haven't seen enough information to put it directly in with frogs. I drop it in terrariums without any animals to clear out snails, it takes a few weeks, but then I can just pick up the plastic lids I had it in, so it never touches the plants or soil. I don't worry about the tiny amount that got inside the snails when they crawl away to become plant food themselves.

I guess if you make a container with holes small enough to let snails in but not frogs, you could use that in a frog tank, assuming the frogs won't eat those snails.

V


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dirtmonkey said:


> I've also used iron based slug and snail bait. You can put it near the plants, doesn't have to actually touch them. The snails will be attracted off the plants to the bait, and die off before they can lay more eggs, until there are none left after a few weeks.
> 
> Iron sulfate is even used in food. Iron phosphate bait is supposed to be harmless to wildlife, but I haven't seen enough information to put it directly in with frogs. I drop it in terrariums without any animals to clear out snails, it takes a few weeks, but then I can just pick up the plastic lids I had it in, so it never touches the plants or soil. I don't worry about the tiny amount that got inside the snails when they crawl away to become plant food themselves.
> 
> ...


You can also use a film canister or other small sealable plastic container with holes punched into the container that allow the slugs to enter and not the frogs. Excess iron can be toxic to a wide variety of vertebrates depending on the amount ingested as an excess can cause iron posioning. 

Ed


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## dirtmonkey (Feb 10, 2007)

Thanks for pointing that out Ed, preventing the frogs' eating the bait or the snails would be safest. I would expect for the most parts the small amounts that get out into the environment would be harmless, and probably bound up by plants and bacteria organically (or by clays inorganically), in most tanks. With basic cautions iron-based stuff seems much safer than most other snail killing chemicals. Iron and coffee grounds are the only things I'll use around here.


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