# Data Logger Data (Trial #1)



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I have the data, interesting stuff...
As expected, I can't figure out how to post it...can't right click anything, wont save to photobucket...someone help!


Split from http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22471


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Here is a graph of his data.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Thanks Clayton,
Here is the ittenerary, and corresponding outdoor temps as reported by the weather channel.
4:25 PM, Picked up, LONDONDERRY, NH 32F
6:46 PM, Left origin, LONDONDERRY, NH 31F
11:30 PM, Arrived at FedEx location, MEMPHIS, TN 31 F
5:21 AM, Departed FedEx location, MEMPHIS, TN 29 F
8:45 AM, On FedEx vehicle for delivery, DULUTH, MN 9 F
2:28 PM, Delivered, SIREN, WI 19 F 

If someone has the knowldege and tools to whip up a graph to overlay with the logger readings, that would be sweet, I'll try to figure out how to do that eventually, for now, I have a hard enough time getting the graphs up.

I almost can't belive the readings...the logger never recorded anything below 40F! Not even on the 69 mile truck ride from Duluth to Siren.
Now if I could get to trust those numbers...
The loggers came in a simple, FedEx medium box, the loggers were in individual cardboard boxes, with stryo peanuts for packing material. They also threw in a bag of cookies (really  )!


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Brian,
If you email me the logger data file I can merge your tracking data with it. 

The 40F min, at two different times, is a little suspicious to me. I'd suggest testing the logger(freezer, or MN backyard) just to make sure. I'd also test the second one at the same time for a validity check.

EricG.NH


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

pl259 said:


> Brian,
> If you email me the logger data file I can merge your tracking data with it.
> 
> The 40F min, at two different times, is a little suspicious to me. I'd suggest testing the logger(freezer, or MN backyard) just to make sure. I'd also test the second one at the same time for a validity check.
> ...


I agree (already said I can hardly belive it), one thing that came to mind was whether or not the logger puts out enough heat to skew the results.
I find that doubtful too though, as they werent insulated enough to keep in what little heat they would be able to produce.
I will do a validity check. I know towards the end of the test, when it was logging in my apt, it logged the same temps my regular thermometers show.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Sorry, but just a thought... can we move this outta the wanted section so it will be easier to follow?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I was thinking of starting a new thread when I can figure out how best to make the graphs readable on here. No sense making a new thread and just mucking it up (IMO).

Also, for those that await new tests... 
When I ordered these, I wasn't planning on being selected to take over the tests that Solly had started to get rolling, I ordered the temp loggers to do some fine tuning on some tanks that are near completion, so it will be a while before I'm willing to ship them back and forth for shipping temp readings.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Very interesting results...I hope that they're accurate, as that'd make shipping a lot less dangerous than some of us assume. Can't wait for the confirmations.

And I moved this to general.

-Solly


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

freezer test shows a cool 13F...


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Here's an overlay of the ambient temp and the recorded temp. For some unknown reason, Excel wouldn't play connect the dots, and I can't figure out how to graph actual time on the x-axis. 








Here's a key to convert the numbers on the x-axis to the actual time. 
05_____	6:00pm
10_____	8:30pm
15_____	11:00pm
20_____	1:30am
25_____	4:00am
30_____	6:30am
35_____	9:00am
40_____	11:00am
45_____	2:00pm

Even at the lowest ambient temp, the package is 10F above which is a nice thing to know.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Brian's Fedex #1:










It's in my gallery if too hard to read.

EricG.NH


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

I haven't read the entire thread, but just looking at the data, is it possible that the two extreme drops in temp (and one other drop, but not as extreme) are a result of the package being outside waiting to be loaded? If this was not an insulated box with no heat packs, I would presume that the inside temperature would drop quite rapidly when exposed to low temperatures. 

It would be cool to know the outside temperature, as well, since sometimes packages are outside vs. inside a warmer warehouse or truck. Obviously, finding this out would be much more difficult...but it does not affect the end goal, which is finding out the temps of the inner box where the frogs will be, with heat packs and insulated boxes. I'm just thinking that the data logger is probably working just fine, hopefully. 

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Kristen


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

...A quick recap...

Well, if you take a look at the graph and such, you will see that the outside temps (as reported by the weatherchannel website) are posted underneath the graph.

And yes, it does affect the end goal, the whole idea is to get a good estimate on the temps the package sees, vs what the weather predictions are. As you can see in this test, the difference is quite large.

For example...say someone wants to ship frogs, but they are worried cause temps are getting into the 40's...take a look at the graph...even at temps well below that number, the temps measured by the logger in an uninsulated box in transit, at it's lowest reading, is still 10F above what the outside temperatures were reported to be.

Temps in the box can easily be tested (maybee not in FL :wink: ) to see the limits of packaging in the outdoors here, without having to pay fares.

To test a package in flight (IMO) would just be an expensive version of what I do in the garage. Not to say it wouldn't be cool to see...


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> For example...say someone wants to ship frogs, but they are worried cause temps are getting into the 40's...take a look at the graph...even at temps well below that number, the temps measured by the logger in an uninsulated box in transit, at it's lowest reading, is still 10F above what the outside temperatures were reported to be.


It was +10F in this shipment. But the slope on the package temperature as it was cooling, is very sharp. Sure, an insulated package would be different. But if this package was exposed another 30-45min, it would be at or very near the outside temp.

If it hasn't been posted before it would good to know the exact steps a package goes through.

One curious thing on the plot is the drop and rise when it goes out for delivery. For some reason the package drops and then rises and hits a nominal 50F??? Where's that from?? Was it a heated truck?

EricG.NH


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Maybe this scenario:
Truck sits out all night so it's cold when the package is loaded. The loaded truck sits for some time then the driver gets in and cranks the heat. If the package is at the front of the truck, this might be enough to bring up the temp that quickly.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

The cargo area may not be climate controlled, but it is enclosed, so it will heat up in a running vehicle, especially since the cab is connected.


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

I think you misunderstood what I was saying...the outside temps, as reported by the weather channel, is not necessarily the temps the package is in at the time of the reading. For example, while the box is presumably outside or in a huge cold warehouse being loaded onto a truck, one can assume it is much colder then than once it is loaded and riding around with a driver or on an airplane or inside the station waiting for pick up. It all depends on the procedures of these companies (I'm sure the ones that work or have worked for them have a better idea of the process they go through). My point was that the low dips in temperatures could have been when the very uninsulated box was sitting outside...I was referring to the comment that those dips in recorded temps made them worry that it wasn't accurate.

Kristen



Dancing frogs said:


> ...A quick recap...
> 
> Well, if you take a look at the graph and such, you will see that the outside temps (as reported by the weatherchannel website) are posted underneath the graph.
> 
> ...


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I went ahead and split the threads - as this data is going to be really good stuff - and we don't want it lost at the end of the other thread.

Kristen makes an excellent point. We know the general outdoor ambient temp at the weather station recording the temps - but not the conditions the actual box is in.

This is where using something like the aforemention I-buttons would be fantastic. They look to be slim enough - that if one was affixed to the outside of a box (maybe inside the packing slip plastic sleeve) - we would know exactly what the temps the box was experiencing. They also seems somewhat structurally sound enough that they could take a LITTLE beating through the shipping process. Also - their cost would be in such a way that if one was destroyed - it wouldn't be a bank breaker.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> I was referring to the comment that those dips in recorded temps made them worry that it wasn't accurate.


My comment on this was because I thought it was a little odd that both dips went to 40F and it would be a good sanity check to test the data logger to make sure it could measure below that. Unlikely, but easy enough to check. 



> We know the general outdoor ambient temp at the weather station recording the temps - but not the conditions the actual box is in.


I think we do know the general conditions the box was in. The logger had minimal insulation and therefore the inside is very close to the outside of the box. Any insulation effect would only change or "soften" the slopes slightly. All steady state or flats on the plot would be the same. 

The local temps are really just rough points of reference.

EricG.NH


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

pl259 said:


> I think we do know the general conditions the box was in. The logger had minimal insulation and therefore the inside is very close to the outside of the box. Any insulation effect would only change or "soften" the slopes slightly. All steady state or flats on the plot would be the same.
> 
> The local temps are really just rough points of reference.


In this particular trial, that is fine because as you mention, it was poorly insulated - but this won't work for a well-insulated frog box. To fully interpret the data that we collect from inside the box, we should know what the actual conditions are immediately outside of it.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> In this particular trial, that is fine because as you mention, it was poorly insulated - but this won't work for a well-insulated frog box. To fully interpret the data that we collect from inside the box, we should know what the actual conditions are immediately outside of it.


Well yes and no. It would work for an insulated box if you knew the performance of the box, otherwise you're right. I Buttons are a good idea, but not what we have. Pardon for a moment the Systems Engineering terms, but Brian's approach is to measure the stimulus and then apply it to models of the packaging that he and I are establishing by controlled temp testing(in the fridge, ect). By shoving an insulated package(and logger) into a fixed temp environment, you're basically measuring the impulse response of the package. Knowing that, you can predict what happens inside the package given any environment or stimulus it might see. 
In other terms, the fixed temp testing will determine the rate of heat loss or gain in the packaging(minus heat/cold packs). My focus on this is to characterize the response of different types of packaging.

EricG.NH


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Is this just in a bare box? Could we have more details on the packing?


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## trinacliff (Aug 9, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> The loggers came in a simple, FedEx medium box, the loggers were in individual cardboard boxes, with stryo peanuts for packing material. They also threw in a bag of cookies (really  )!


Brian had them open up a temp logger to record temps in the box while being shipped to him.

Kristen


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> Is this just in a bare box? Could we have more details on the packing?


This was just the plain ol' cardboard box that the supplier shipped the dataloggers to Brian in, he requested that they turn on on before they packed them, and that they ship them overnight to him.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Ah ok I get it now... Would be interesting in a normal frog shipping box.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Fantastic start.

Now lets get (I mean you :wink: ) a move on and model some potential conditions soon...

3 hours on your MN stoop at whatever GD temp it is there now.
3 hours in the car in the MN garage...
3 hours in a nice warm trip in said car to the Mall of America...
3 hours on your counter top..

Using actual frog packaging of course.

Double insulated box and single box trials...1, 2, 3 heat packs ect. Between boxes, or one inside...gel, no gel...

Come on now...you've got everyone interested!! 

(FYI: I just recieved a box of 3 frozen frogs this week...cardboard outer box, inside was a 1/4 inch styro lined cardboard box. 2, 30 hour heat packs in the layer between the boxes--which BTW were ice cold because they dont work if they get below 32F---, no gel, no heat inside the actual styro box with the frogs. They were likely exposed to the 28F night temps we have had recently in transit from the west coast) Not exactly how I would do it, but it wasnt entirely deficient either....still....dead frogs...

Shawn


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

1/4 inch styro? Whats the point...

I would like to see just a small or medium mr.box insulated box with or without heat packs.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

kyle1745 said:


> 1/4 inch styro? Whats the point...
> 
> I would like to see just a small or medium mr.box insulated box with or without heat packs.


amazing it was sent this way Kyle....

I personally use 1 inch stryo, solid containers, inside of a 1/2 inch panel box, with 2-3 40hour heat packs between the 2....

but I would love to see that modeled!

S


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> My comment on this was because I thought it was a little odd that both dips went to 40F and it would be a good sanity check to test the data logger to make sure it could measure below that. Unlikely, but easy enough to check.


If they were steady state at 40F, I'd agree, but being that they're transients, it seems unlikely. But testing for it isn't a big deal so either way it's kinda moot. 

Have we really nailed down what we're trying to do? I see alot of great ideas, but it's hard to apply them if we really haven't solidified our goals and game plan first. 

Here's what I'm thinking:
1) Fully characterize the temperatures and fluxuations seen by the box while it's in transit
2) Take the interesting regions from the above, and artficially recreate them to model the reaction of the packaging
3) Modify packaging and repeate step 2 until candidate box and packing design is found. 
4) Take RC1 and actually ship it to see if the model is accurate. 
5) Analyze and repeate as needed.
6) We've got a box design

I'm not sure if we'll have to do another sanity check for summer weather or not. The difference in temp between the inside and outside of the box should be the driving force of this, not the actual temperatures. Am I thinking about this right?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Eric summed up my point on the testing well. I mainly want to see what temps are, as close as we can find, outside the box, shipping a logger in an insulated container will give you readings, but in order to design new packaging, one would have to try and determine what happens outside the box, and prepare accordingly.

I already know my packaging is sound to somewhere below +20F, and the same package, packed the same way will not get too hot, even if brought inside, left sealed and sitting at 75F for 4 or more hours.

The question I am looking to answer is:
When do packages actually see the limits they are designed for?

With the outside temps what they were, I would have never dreamed of shipping frogs in those temps (and still wont, till I see the results repeated numerous times), but according to the logger, they would have made it just fine, even on the 69 mile trek accross the frozen tundra that is NW Wisconsin.

Mike Lined up the stages in the order I would like to proceed, and I think summer testing is definatly in order...I know a car/truck gets way hot in the summer sun, why not a plane? 

For those anxious for another test, one should happen next week, with the logger shipped in the same box, back to NH and then back here.

When I know for sure when the next test will happen, I may ask for people to chip in, how I would like to work that, is to divide it evenly between everyone interested...my guess right now it the next test will cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $60 total.

After that, I would say we should look into a west coast destination, as someone had already stated, not all stations are the same, and will handle packages differently.


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## abarrera2 (Sep 13, 2006)

Just wanted to subscribe to this post. Very interesting info.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

I would like to subscribe too  

I'm not sure if its already been tried, but has anyone tried lining the inside of the outer box with aluminum foil to reflect opposing temps both back in and back out.. ie: cold reflected back out and heat reflected back in?

Just an idea, tell me to shut up and get back to work if you like! :lol: 

Regards

Steve


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> If they were steady state at 40F, I'd agree, but being that they're transients, it seems unlikely. But testing for it isn't a big deal so either way it's kinda moot.


Yep, I agree 100%. Like I said "a little odd". If the logger was bad, several other things would have to have happened too. Possible but unlikely.

To do things like this right, we would first all agree to a set of requirements. But that's a bit techy for this group. My self imposed "loose" requirements are:

1. Use readily available packaging materials. Box sizes, insulation. 
2. Maintain temp between 60-80F while exposed to 32F-100F.
3. Keep packaging costs <$10.
4. Keep inner core "safe". No O2 consumming or toxic materials.
5. Maintain humidity.
6. Provide some mechanical shock protection. 
7. Use packaging that minimizes overall cost while maximizing performance(more on this later)

The packaging I'm considering testing are as follows:

12x12x12 cardboard w/1.5in rigid styro insulation(RFI).
12x12x12 cardboard w/1.5in RFI, alum foil(AF).
12x12x12 cardboard w/1.5in RFI, w/ or w/o AF, 2lb thermal mass(gel)
12x12x12 cardboard w/1.5in RFI, w/ or w/o AF, 2lb PCM

After these, TBD heat/cold pack tests.

EricG.NH


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

One thing about the foam with foil...
I experimented with the 1" foil faced last year, and one thing I worry about is the safety of the material.
When you cut it, it releases a nasty solvent type smell. Regular polystyrene foam doesn't exactly smell like lilacs either, but it is already considered safe, and used widely as a food contact safe material.

I'll stop by the garage on the way to get my esspresso jolt, and get the name of the foam that is between the foil.

The foil faced bubble wrap may be worth experimenting with as well.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

http://www.jm.com/msds/EN3016.pdf

The above is a link to the msds of the polyisocyanurate insulation, including aquatic toxicity.


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## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

Super thread, can't wait to see what you guys come up with!


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Looks like tests 2 and 3, to NH and then back here again will happen on monday, same packaging, same carrier. 

Total cost estimated to be $60 

Looking for a few people to chip in... 

Please PM me for pay-pal address...my email is clogged right now, so don't go there! 

Thanks, 
Brian


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Thanks to all that dontated to the cause...
The Data will be up soon!


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Here's the data from the second test, WI to NH then NH to WI. Local temps
were very mild.










I also uploaded the file to my gallery, in the extra folder.

EricG.NH


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

What was the packaging for this test?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Same thing, only a little more tape, and one logger instead of two in the package. 
Id like to do another test, perhaps to a different location, if it ever gets "cold" this winter.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

By "same thing," I presume you mean an uninsulated box?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Yes, exact same fedex medium box, stryo peanuts, non-insulated.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Would like to do another test now that we have some actual "cold" weather...
Seeking donations, and someone to send the package to that will also be experiencing cold weather on tuesday, hopefully.

Our temps here are supposed to be 13 for a high on monday, with a low of 0F.
If the weather in you're area is going to be cold (below 20 preferably)tuesday, and would like to participate, let me know. The package will be shipped in the same fasion, with a return shipment packing slip, which you will have to tape onto the box, then the package will be charged to my account.
Due to some rate increases, I expect this test to run around $70-80, and seek small dontations.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Looks like the next test will be from here to Josh's frogs in Byron MI...not a long ways away, but weather will be cold...

Still needing a few good people to step up and chip in...

PM me for paypal info.


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