# Where did your frogs come from? ...are you sure?



## skylsdale

Poison arrow frog mystery - NatGeo News Watch

"According to the study: More than 63,000 poison arrow frogs of 32 species were traded internationally between 2004 and 2008. For 21 species the majority of individuals were reported as captive-bred. Around a fifth were destined for markets in Asia--Japan, Thailand and Taiwan--where keeping exotic pets is becoming increasingly popular.

"Five of the species reported in trade are regarded by IUCN, the International Union for Conservation of Nature, as at risk of global extinction. They include the golden poison frog _Phyllobates terribilis_, an endangered species known only from tiny areas on the Pacific coast of Colombia. Of 342 reported in trade, 287 were claimed to have been captive-bred, 200 of them in Kazakhstan."


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## afterdark

Thanks very much for posting this.

Very troubling stuff.


> possibility that specimens declared as captive-bred could be wild-caught and are being laundered into the international trade


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## JeremyHuff

Funny how not a single pumilio was farm-raised.....especially considering recent conversations on DB.


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## skylsdale

The study itself: http://www.springerlink.com/content/b013x81t3306565k/fulltext.pdf



> Gorzula (1996) reported 14% of the total international trade to be captive-bred, whereas currently 91% of the individuals are reported as such (with an additional 5% comprising ranched or F1 captive-born individuals).


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## markpulawski

my frogs came from God...what a gift!


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## tachikoma

Seems painfully obvious to me that maybe they should regulate shipments headed to Kazakhstan more strictly. The article seems to suggests that pretty much all discrepancies lead there.


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## Woodsman

The only reasonable stand to take is for all hobbyists to reject purchasing any frogs that they cannot confirm were produced by another reputable breeder.

Standing by while a crime is committed is a crime. We need to take a stand.

Richard.


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## frogparty

Thats right folks!! Support your local breeders!!!


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## Arrynia

markpulawski said:


> my frogs came from God...what a gift!


+1 Well put!


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## stolenweasel

of all places for most frogs to be beleived to be from. a fricken stan thats bogus right there. as soon as stan is in the name it should pop questions.


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## Chicago Frog Man

Wasn't Borat from Kazakhstan?


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## Tony

Woodsman said:


> The only reasonable stand to take is for all hobbyists to reject purchasing any frogs that they cannot confirm were produced by another reputable breeder.
> 
> Standing by while a crime is committed is a crime. We need to take a stand.
> 
> Richard.


How do you propose to introduce new species into the hobby?


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## Chris Miller

Tony said:


> How do you propose to introduce new species into the hobby?


Without getting into vendor feedback, Understory Enterprises is a good example of how things can be done.


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## Tony

But my point is, where do those frogs come from that endors like Understory bring in? Captive bred animals MUST come from wild caught animals, they don't just spontaneously appear in a viv. It is illogical to oppose taking any animal from the wild and participate in this hobby.


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## skylsdale

Initial wild-caught stock to establish captive populations _can_ be sustainably collected from the wild...the problem is that it's fairly uncommon. Okay, pretty much non-existant (I can count on one finger the number of operations I'm aware of doing it).

And, according to this study, the solution isn't just making sure your frogs aren't coming in from Kazahkstan because, apparently, an obscene number of frogs are being imported from all sorts of other countries under the banner of "captive bred" which are obviously wild caught.


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## thedude

Tony said:


> But my point is, where do those frogs come from that endors like Understory bring in? Captive bred animals MUST come from wild caught animals, they don't just spontaneously appear in a viv. It is illogical to oppose taking any animal from the wild and participate in this hobby.


the idea isnt that no frogs should be taken from the wild, its that it should be done sustainably with the frogs well being, their habitat, and their ecosystmes being the highest priority. instead of the highest priority being our greed. (NOT pointing fingers at ANYONE)


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## Tony

thedude said:


> the idea isnt that no frogs should be taken from the wild, its that it should be done sustainably with the frogs well being, their habitat, and their ecosystmes being the highest priority. instead of the highest priority being our greed. (NOT pointing fingers at ANYONE)


I think you and I are on the same page, my disagreement was with Richard's assertion that buying wild caught animals is a crime, and the only reasonable thing to do is only buy captive bred. Since captive bred frogs must descend from wild caught frogs, if a person truly believes that it is unethical to take them from the wild the only logical thing to do is to not participate in the hobby. Where is the logic in thinking that it is ok to buy captive bred frogs, but the people who bred them must be criminals because they started with wild caught stock?


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## thedude

Tony said:


> I think you and I are on the same page, my disagreement was with Richard's assertion that buying wild caught animals is a crime, and the only reasonable thing to do is only buy captive bred. Since captive bred frogs must descend from wild caught frogs, if a person truly believes that it is unethical to take them from the wild the only logical thing to do is to not participate in the hobby. Where is the logic in thinking that it is ok to buy captive bred frogs, but the people who bred them must be criminals because they started with wild caught stock?


oh i see, gotcha. we are definitily on the same page. i would like to add one more thing though. with certain frogs that have popped up in the US from EU that are legal, yet were never exported from their native country legally, i would consider buying them to be a bad thing even if they are captive bred. if you want more detail, i would be happy to supply it...


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## Tony

thedude said:


> oh i see, gotcha. we are definitily on the same page. i would like to add one more thing though. with certain frogs that have popped up in the US from EU that are legal, yet were never exported from their native country legally, i would consider buying them to be a bad thing even if they are captive bred. if you want more detail, i would be happy to supply it...


I agree, a smuggled frog is a smuggled frog, whether it was sent directly to the US or laundered through the EU first.


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## PumilioTurkey

tony said:


> since captive bred frogs must descend from wild caught frogs, if a person truly believes that it is unethical to take them from the wild the only logical thing to do is to not participate in the hobby.


this!!!!!!


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## Roadrunner

Understorry only takes cb out of the country, the breeders end up going to display in zoos/institutions in Peru. So no wc animals leave Peeru to the best of my knowledge.



Tony said:


> But my point is, where do those frogs come from that endors like Understory bring in? Captive bred animals MUST come from wild caught animals, they don't just spontaneously appear in a viv. It is illogical to oppose taking any animal from the wild and participate in this hobby.


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## Roadrunner

You realize your statement that high priced frogs are keeping people out of the hobby and that you want to stop wc purchases are directly opposing each other? The cheapest frogs are wc animals and if the prices are supposed to continually get cheaper, the only frogs available will be wc? We simply can`t produce them in captivity as cheap as they can in the wild. As long as people want cheap frogs they will continue to be smuggled and imported and told to be cb for seemingly GREAT prices.




Woodsman said:


> The only reasonable stand to take is for all hobbyists to reject purchasing any frogs that they cannot confirm were produced by another reputable breeder.
> 
> Standing by while a crime is committed is a crime. We need to take a stand.
> 
> Richard.


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## Philsuma

I purchased 12 WC pumilio from a longstanding import warehouse in SoFl a couple years ago.

I wasn't keen on the idea but I reconciled this by saying - If I want to intelligently talk about this subject, I need to see this stuff first hand.

I hand selected all 12 frogs for size, colour and apparent good health.

10 of 12 died. 2 died withing hours.....never again.



There are a few options for indulging in this hobby. 

1. Mail order cheap imports from an import warehouse or jobber - middleman.

2. Deal with importers that the community supports and recommends. This one may be hard to do because DB does not allow vendor feedback and it would admittedly take some time to "get the lay of the land" and uncover the better people in the import part of the hobby.

3. Go to a local frogger meet / show and meet the people who are constantly on this forum, writing, helping ect. Want to see what you are purchasing up close and talk to the breeder? *This is the best way to obtain frogs IMO*.


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## jubjub47

While I agree with you on most of those point Phil, I think you're 3rd point is the toughest of all in general. Up in your part of the country it's easy to find a large amount of froggers within a stones throw. Unfortunately, for many of us, we live in such widespread areas in comparison that online is the best place to get information. It's taken me many years in this hobby and I can count the number of dart keepers in my area that I consider to be knowledgeable on one hand. That being said though, the few that are in the area are really starting to produce quality animals.


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## Woodsman

Hi Aaron,

I sell Leucomelas for $20 and Azureus for $25. There are good, "cheap", frogs in the hobby and hobbyists should be directed toward purchasing frogs that will perform well for them (as opposed to the wc tragedies currently being "marketed" to the hobby).

This is my opinion, of course, Richard.



frogfarm said:


> You realize your statement that high priced frogs are keeping people out of the hobby and that you want to stop wc purchases are directly opposing each other? The cheapest frogs are wc animals and if the prices are supposed to continually get cheaper, the only frogs available will be wc? We simply can`t produce them in captivity as cheap as they can in the wild. As long as people want cheap frogs they will continue to be smuggled and imported and told to be cb for seemingly GREAT prices.


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## Tony

frogfarm said:


> Understorry only takes cb out of the country, the breeders end up going to display in zoos/institutions in Peru. So no wc animals leave Peeru to the best of my knowledge.


That is great, and I love their business model, but frogs are still being taken from the wild even if they aren't sent here. For someone who is opposed to frogs ever being taken from the wild, buying captive bred frogs supports taking frogs from the wild at some point. The only way to keep that code of ethics intact is to not participate in the hobby. I personally prefer a more moderate approach in favor of sustainable harvest being used to establish stable captive populations.


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## Taron

This cycle will never end....this is a dead end subject. For instance if we do find a way to make it completely illegal. The illegal frogs will just sky rocket in price making certain people want them even more and it will give a person more reason to take the creature from the wild. There is no real way to solve the problem at hand! Well I lied  actually if every frog was bred in captivity and readily available then there would be no need to take them from the wild because the loss is to great when importing. There for there would be no profit. We all know that will never happen though because it is to big of a risk. On the other hand if we just sit around and hope these frogs don't die from deforesting, chitrid, and other natural and human causing diseases they will soon be a animal I can only look at in books. Dead end subject for sure guys........so i guess we should all go out and buy nikon cameras and go snap pictures because there are certain species you just won't see again.

PS I don't believe in taking Wild Caught animals unless you are a professional and have licensing. You should probably have to be a vet as well.


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## thedude

Tony said:


> I personally prefer a more moderate approach in favor of sustainable harvest being used to establish stable captive populations.


BINGO!


phil, thats really too bad. it also makes me wonder how many pums die on the way to the "farms" or even once they are in the tanks. then there are some that die on the way up here...in the importers warehouses....in the pet stores.....and in tanks of buyers. thats probably a lot of dead frogs


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## skylsdale

ReptilesEtcetera said:


> There is no real way to solve the problem at hand! Well I lied actually if every frog was bred in captivity and readily available then there would be no need to take them from the wild because the loss is to great when importing. There for there would be no profit. We all know that will never happen though because it is to big of a risk. On the other hand if we just sit around and hope these frogs don't die from deforesting, chitrid, and other natural and human causing diseases they will soon be a animal I can only look at in books.


This is a grossly oversimplistic view of the issue. There is a way to solve the problem at hand, but it depends upon the hobbyist consumers and their purchasing habits and captive management. The current system is based on greed, impulse, and wanting to have what no one else does. If we could collectively practice a little more restraint and self-control, waiting a bit longer for CB frogs to become available through captive-breeding efforts (rather than snatching up the WC specimens) and be willing to pay a bit more for those CB animals, then we would be casting a much different vote in the hobby market and how it operates.

Also, if we actually got serious about responsible captive management of the animals we already have (via programs like TWI's Amphibian Steward Network), then we wouldn't need to continue bringing in loads of WC stock. This takes a concerted effort by hobbyists to engage in and actively practice, not just talk or theorize about.

If we want to really look honestly at the situation, it's not that we _can't_...it's that we _don't_.


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## Philsuma

Tony said:


> buying captive bred frogs supports taking frogs from the wild at some point.


While ultimately correct, I think this statement needs clarification...

There will ALWAYS be legally imported herps (reptiles and amphibeans) Always. The pet industry is too large and lobbyists have deep pockets and money to ever see this changed. Oh, there may be the obligatory statutory "concessions" (large snake bill) and the occasional "false" victory such as the recent Texas debacle but thats about the size of it folks. If anyone thinks otherwise, I would recommend leaving the hobby to concentrate on putting energy into all the many groups that are trying to outlaw this and I think we all know who they are. Otherwise you are banging your head against the wall expecting a different result.

The change we should seek is here on this very forum. Its also found at the local meetings where 30-40 of us get together every couple of months.

You as a consumer, have the ultimate of choices. To buy or not to buy. You can easily buy one of many equally colourful CB pumilio for about $100.00 less than a blue jeans morph. What would you like people to say after visiting your frog room? Do you feel good about where you got your frogs? Do you have a sense of ease and enjoyment at all the local frogger meetings when discussing your collection and species. Are you proud of your accomplishments and your friends and contacts in the hobby? Who do support and go to for your frogs? Do you know their name? Do you think they are good people - doing good things for the hobby ? What do you know about them?

As in all other aspects of life, align yourselves with good people and shun the bad ones who are in it solely for the money. You can tell the difference can't you?

That is your moral compass talking. Are you listening?

a little sappy perhaps? a little goofy? I had a choice too. To type this....or to type....



nothing.


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## Ed

Tony said:


> That is great, and I love their business model, but frogs are still being taken from the wild even if they aren't sent here. For someone who is opposed to frogs ever being taken from the wild, buying captive bred frogs supports taking frogs from the wild at some point. The only way to keep that code of ethics intact is to not participate in the hobby.


Correct.. 



Tony said:


> I personally prefer a more moderate approach in favor of sustainable harvest being used to establish stable captive populations.


Lets look at thier model for a moment.. they get permits to take a very limited number of frogs from a location. Once those frogs are removed, as I understand it, they don't tend to get a second round of permits. Those frogs are then tracked and managed with regular required updates on thier progress. All of the eggs and tadpoles are tracked so they are all accounted for and to prevent laundering of wc animals... Only when they have shown they can captive breed the frogs in sufficient numbers are they allowed to export a number of captive bred offspring (the wild caught animals cannot be exported) (and remember they can account for all of the frogs from egg onward). This is very sustainable harvesting of frogs (as there are a limited number allowed to be taken to establish captive breeding), the animals are tracked until death or export.... 

Ed


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## Woodsman

Tony,

You keep saying who should be in the hobby and who shouldn't be in the hobby. Perhaps you should consider taking a break from insulting other members who have a different opinion as yours. Or perhaps you should think about not being in the hobby.

Richard.



Tony said:


> That is great, and I love their business model, but frogs are still being taken from the wild even if they aren't sent here. For someone who is opposed to frogs ever being taken from the wild, buying captive bred frogs supports taking frogs from the wild at some point. The only way to keep that code of ethics intact is to not participate in the hobby. I personally prefer a more moderate approach in favor of sustainable harvest being used to establish stable captive populations.


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## Tony

Woodsman said:


> Tony,
> 
> You keep saying who should be in the hobby and who shouldn't be in the hobby. Perhaps you should consider taking a break from insulting other members who have a different opinion as yours. Or perhaps you should think about not being in the hobby.
> 
> Richard.


All I'm doing is spelling out the logical progression of your statement. I never insulted anyone, I just stated that I disagree with your position. Calling your fellow hobbyists criminals is much more of an insult.


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## Roadrunner

Hi Richard,
Since you sell them retail, wholesale would be 10$ and $12.50 respectively. Which means you`re subsidizing the business you have. You can`t create azureus and leucamelas long term for those wholesale prices unless your paying for your heat,caging etc. to subsidize the business or burning out your breeders. Considering the government takes 25% of the profits right off the top, eventually no one would breed them and we`d have to go back to wc. It`s the same cycle over and over, people sell them for less than it costs to create them, they burn out in 2 years and everyone has stopped breeding them by then, we get bottlenecks and they disappear. Usually because they`ve burned out their breeders and can`t get the froglets to thrive anymore. Most tinc morphs etc. are at a price because they are set by color and prolificity over time by business` that know what they should cost. The ones that tried to get cheaper wholesale prices and sell them cheaper have gone out of business, because they can`t be sustained long before they give up because it`s not worth it(either the business or breeders supplying them). The only business that can do this are the shops selling everything else(corn snakes, ball pythons and every other type of amphibian), which doesn`t offset what might happen if they don`t clean cages inbetween changing inhabitants or something jumps between tanks!

I have no problem w/ you selling them to hobbyists for whatever you want but everyone cant do what your doing, meaning the supply would eventually have to come from the wild again to compare to those prices. Just because you do it doesn`t mean that everyone else can.



Woodsman said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I sell Leucomelas for $20 and Azureus for $25. There are good, "cheap", frogs in the hobby and hobbyists should be directed toward purchasing frogs that will perform well for them (as opposed to the wc tragedies currently being "marketed" to the hobby).
> 
> This is my opinion, of course, Richard.


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## Woodsman

Hi Aaron.

Those are my prices, retail to hobbyists or wholesale to larger retailers. I am NOT a business, so you're right in saying that I am not trying to make the mortgage payment off the hobby. A number of years ago, you gave me the best advice I have heard in the hobby, that (if I am a diligent and competent hobbyist and breeder), I should be able to make enough money from the hobby to pay for my participation in the hobby. That's all I have done, without burning-out my frogs and remaining in the hobby for 13 years now.

I believe captive breeding IS conservation and intend to try to promote ways that captive breeders can compete financially with wild-collected animals. For me, it really is an ethical question.

Just my opinion, Richard.



frogfarm said:


> Hi Richard,
> Since you sell them retail, wholesale would be 10$ and $12.50 respectively. Which means you`re subsidizing the business you have. You can`t create azureus and leucamelas long term for those wholesale prices unless your paying for your heat,caging etc. to subsidize the business or burning out your breeders. Considering the government takes 25% of the profits right off the top, eventually no one would breed them and we`d have to go back to wc. It`s the same cycle over and over, people sell them for less than it costs to create them, they burn out in 2 years and everyone has stopped breeding them by then, we get bottlenecks and they disappear. Usually because they`ve burned out their breeders and can`t get the froglets to thrive anymore. Most tinc morphs etc. are at a price because they are set by color and prolificity over time by business` that know what they should cost. The ones that tried to get cheaper wholesale prices and sell them cheaper have gone out of business, because they can`t be sustained long before they give up because it`s not worth it(either the business or breeders supplying them). The only business that can do this are the shops selling everything else(corn snakes, ball pythons and every other type of amphibian), which doesn`t offset what might happen if they don`t clean cages inbetween changing inhabitants or something jumps between tanks!
> 
> I have no problem w/ you selling them to hobbyists for whatever you want but everyone cant do what your doing, meaning the supply would eventually have to come from the wild again to compare to those prices. Just because you do it doesn`t mean that everyone else can.


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## Roadrunner

Ahhh, but you are a business. If you sell frogs other than wholesale to a business w/ a tax ID # (which means retail to the public) your supposed to have a tax id # to collect sales tax in your state and claim it on your income tax. Your not a business in the sense that you have filed for a business name,inc,etc. but your still a business in the sense that you participate in the market and are supposed to follow rules for a "hobby business". 
The difference between a farmer and a gardener is that a gardener gives away their extra food to family and friends. A farmer is someone who does the same thing and sells the extra, whether they make a profit or not. One is a business and one is a hobby!



Woodsman said:


> Hi Aaron.
> 
> Those are my prices, retail to hobbyists or wholesale to larger retailers. I am NOT a business, so you're right in saying that I am not trying to make the mortgage payment off the hobby. A number of years ago, you gave me the best advice I have heard in the hobby, that (if I am a diligent and competent hobbyist and breeder), I should be able to make enough money from the hobby to pay for my participation in the hobby. That's all I have done, without burning-out my frogs and remaining in the hobby for 13 years now.
> 
> I believe captive breeding IS conservation and intend to try to promote ways that captive breeders can compete financially with wild-collected animals. For me, it really is an ethical question.
> 
> Just my opinion, Richard.


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## Roadrunner

So what prices do you sell your other tincs for? Are you sure you aren`t selling those frogs for a low price so you can get market price for your others? Just asking because that would be a business marketing ploy?



Woodsman said:


> Hi Aaron.
> 
> Those are my prices, retail to hobbyists or wholesale to larger retailers. I am NOT a business, so you're right in saying that I am not trying to make the mortgage payment off the hobby. A number of years ago, you gave me the best advice I have heard in the hobby, that (if I am a diligent and competent hobbyist and breeder), I should be able to make enough money from the hobby to pay for my participation in the hobby. That's all I have done, without burning-out my frogs and remaining in the hobby for 13 years now.
> 
> I believe captive breeding IS conservation and intend to try to promote ways that captive breeders can compete financially with wild-collected animals. For me, it really is an ethical question.
> 
> Just my opinion, Richard.


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## Woodsman

Hi Aaron,

I always base what I ask for a frog on how much work goes into producing them (and how much I invested in their parents to start). My Giant Oranges just don't produce the way that the Azureus and Leucs do. The truth is, I MUCH prefer trading someone for frogs that I want rather than sell and haven't purchased any new frogs in about a year.

Take care, Richard. (It might be better to PM with any other issues, rather than take space from an unrelated thread).



frogfarm said:


> So what prices do you sell your other tincs for? Are you sure you aren`t selling those frogs for a low price so you can get market price for your others? Just asking because that would be a business marketing ploy?


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## ktewell

This thread has gone downhill.


It seems to me that before anything is done about ensuring the safety of wild populations, we need to form a compromise between two extremes: 

1. Complete disregard for sustainability, take whatever we want
2. Not taking any more frogs from the wild at all


Obviously this will depend on species _and_ morph. Maybe a new section of the forums is warranted that details the status of each morph in the wild and policies on buying them WC/FR/CB etc.


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## markpulawski

As long as there are frogs in the wild, they likely will be taken from the wild if someone can profit from them. As responsible hobbyists i am much more an advocate of making sure at least part of them end up in the hands of people than can potentially breed them. Richard I iunderstand your desire for us to take a stand and not support this trade by boycotting it however all that would mean are 1000's of frogs going to people that don't have the experience they need to keep them viable. A great majority of frogs would still go to that group however knowing some % ends up in the hands of people that care enough to keep their lineage alive and going is for now the best we can do. 
Sure lots of frogs do not survive however a viable pair in the right hands could potentially lead to dozens or hundreds of offspring depending on the species, for now that is the best we can make of this situation.


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## Roadrunner

Oh, it`s quite related to why wc come in at such lo prices and won`t be stopped.

That`s a BUSINESS PLAN. So your saying that you want to make the same off each pair depending on how much they produce(mimicking market price minus business costs). You want to skip all the paid advertising, website, etc. and pass the savings on to the consumer but not the wholesaler. You want to make the profit margin of a business by sidestepping the part that`s included in the cost(elec, taxes, heat, etc.)? You want to be a business w/out all the hassle of becoming a business. Put the BUSINESS back in the hands of the hobbyists. After all this is a hobby, right?

The wc problem comes from the business attitude of buying a pair for less to produce froglets that are worth more than you paid for the adults. If most of the people getting into the hobby would be hobbyists not business` they`d trade their froglets back to their source for supplies or wholesale them at reasonable prices back to the business they got the frogs from. They would not try and compete in the open market. Selling frogs is the BUSINESS part of the hobby.

I`m not trying to say that everyone breeding frogs is doing this and if your not inbreeding and are going to be around for the long term then oh well. )If these people think it`s a great injustice that frogs cost that much and they think it`s their responsibility to "drive the prices down" then I have jobs for you in the fields of oil, renewable energy and the likes if you really want to make a difference. Maybe if more people subsidized electric costs in their spare time by buying a "hobby solar panel" and selling the electric cheap we wouldnt be in as rough shape.) Unfortunately most aren`t around as long as you. They are a flash in the pan, here for a while to sell tons of froglets w/ very few posts. They then realize it takes time to get rid of frogs, usually, and drop their prices lower and lower because they "need to move them this week". People see this one person dropping the price week by week. The frogs start to be thought of as "rat frogs" whatever that means, and they`re gone. Leaving the community, the frog lines and the frogs in worse shape than they entered. Unfortunately in a "free market" the ones who cut corners will always win out over the ones that try and do it right. People selling sylvaticus strait from the smugglers will always beat out the sylvaticus that go thru the proper channels because it takes to long to get them in and people want them now. Smuggled sylvaticus will always be cheaper then ones that came thru a legit program. As long as people are only interested in making money or saving money it will always be this way. I guess if you get rid of money this would probably all work!

Thoughts?




Woodsman said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> I always base what I ask for a frog on how much work goes into producing them (and how much I invested in their parents to start). My Giant Oranges just don't produce the way that the Azureus and Leucs do. The truth is, I MUCH prefer trading someone for frogs that I want rather than sell and haven't purchased any new frogs in about a year.
> 
> Take care, Richard. (It might be better to PM with any other issues, rather than take space from an unrelated thread).


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## NDokai

I agree with Mark, about trying to ensure that some of these wild caught frogs make it into the hands of dedicated hobbyists. I think there is little we can do as consumers, alone. We can flat out, refuse to buy wild caught frogs, but if you really think this will take much of a dent out of the demand, you are mistaken. Globally, there will be demand. If we stop buying wild caught frogs, the smuggling and laundering operation will just find another market. I think more focus should be put on finding these operations, and shutting them down, as well as supporting responsible operations, like UE.
I know there are a lot of ways to discourage over collection, but refusing to buy the frog once it makes it all the way into the American hobby, is futile, the damage has been done.
By the way, reading the article reminded me about the book "The Lizard King".
It talked, in detail about similar smuggling and laundering operations.

Nick


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## jubjub47

The act of selling occasional animals doesn't make you a business. As hobbyist working with often times quite prolific animals, you just have to get rid if excess offspring. It's unfortunate for people in your shoes I guess since we're not trying to make a living off of the animals, but that's life. Heck, I give away twice as many frogs as I sell and don't feel bad about it at all. It's not the hobbyist job to try and help the business owner make money. It's up to the business owner to come up with a model that offers something the hobbyist doesn't. I agree that WC animals are going to be imported whether legal or not and while it is legal it's best that some of them get into the hands of hobbyist that can take the best care of them in hopes of keeping them going into the future. 



frogfarm said:


> Oh, it`s quite related to why wc come in at such lo prices and won`t be stopped.
> 
> That`s a BUSINESS PLAN. So your saying that you want to make the same off each pair depending on how much they produce(mimicking market price minus business costs). You want to skip all the paid advertising, website, etc. and pass the savings on to the consumer but not the wholesaler. You want to make the profit margin of a business by sidestepping the part that`s included in the cost(elec, taxes, heat, etc.)? You want to be a business w/out all the hassle of becoming a business. Put the BUSINESS back in the hands of the hobbyists. After all this is a hobby, right?
> 
> The wc problem comes from the business attitude of buying a pair for less to produce froglets that are worth more than you paid for the adults. If most of the people getting into the hobby would be hobbyists not business` they`d trade their froglets back to their source for supplies or wholesale them at reasonable prices back to the business they got the frogs from. They would not try and compete in the open market. Selling frogs is the BUSINESS part of the hobby.
> 
> I`m not trying to say that everyone breeding frogs is doing this and if your not inbreeding and are going to be around for the long term then oh well. )If these people think it`s a great injustice that frogs cost that much and they think it`s their responsibility to "drive the prices down" then I have jobs for you in the fields of oil, renewable energy and the likes if you really want to make a difference. Maybe if more people subsidized electric costs in their spare time by buying a "hobby solar panel" and selling the electric cheap we wouldnt be in as rough shape.) Unfortunately most aren`t around as long as you. They are a flash in the pan, here for a while to sell tons of froglets w/ very few posts. They then realize it takes time to get rid of frogs, usually, and drop their prices lower and lower because they "need to move them this week". People see this one person dropping the price week by week. The frogs start to be thought of as "rat frogs" whatever that means, and they`re gone. Leaving the community, the frog lines and the frogs in worse shape than they entered. Unfortunately in a "free market" the ones who cut corners will always win out over the ones that try and do it right. People selling sylvaticus strait from the smugglers will always beat out the sylvaticus that go thru the proper channels because it takes to long to get them in and people want them now. Smuggled sylvaticus will always be cheaper then ones that came thru a legit program. As long as people are only interested in making money or saving money it will always be this way. I guess if you get rid of money this would probably all work!
> 
> Thoughts?


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## ktewell

I'm not sure if anyone sifted through all of those comments and will ever see this, but what the heck.


This thread kinda shows why we won't ever accomplish anything- it turned into an argument way too quickly (about what? what constitutes a business? come on).


SPOILER ALERT: If your goal is to ensure stable wild populations, you must approach the issue first from conservation, not the hobby.


Kevin


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## Philsuma

Kevin,

This thread did get a little twisted and a derailment happened but there was still some good info from some senior hobbyists in here. It may seem a little tedious at times, but stay with it. Some good points and information is guarenteed to ensue.

Argumentary correspondence is actually ok as it promotes more than it destroys. I found good insight in the Aaron - Richard exchange. They are both accomplished hobbyists and I am glad they post as opposed to the recent mixed species and white face tinc post / person.


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## thedude

NDokai said:


> I know there are a lot of ways to discourage over collection, but refusing to buy the frog once it makes it all the way into the American hobby, is futile, the damage has been done.
> 
> Nick


actually its an issue of supply and demand. if 1000 pumilio were imported to the US and we all boycott them and they all die then the 1000 pumilio that came in would be the damage done. however, if 1000 pumilio come in and we purchase them then the importers made money and know there is a demand for them. if there is a demand for them then they will supply them and thus the cycle goes all over again...ensuring even more damage will be done.


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## dom

no one has mention genetic variation yet, this is a good reason to setup sustainable harvest.

kinda of off topic, but its a good reason to have some WC frogs in the hobby


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## dom

markpulawski said:


> my frogs came from God...what a gift!


gooooooooooooooooooo GOD


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## Tony

dom said:


> no one has mention genetic variation yet, this is a good reason to setup sustainable harvest.
> 
> kinda of off topic, but its a good reason to have some WC frogs in the hobby


With a large enough founding population and proper genetic management (ASN!  ) there really is no need for continued imports once a species is established.


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## joshsfrogs

> The act of selling occasional animals doesn't make you a business.


With April 15th approaching I just wanted to point out that if you sold frogs you HAVE to claim that as income. Hobby vs. Business only applies to deductions and not income. You could get audited... 

A good article related to this thread: Dendrobates.org - Smuggling I think a lot of smuggled frogs are bought by people accidentally. We traded some vents for a certain frog species from a certain reptile dealer a few years ago and was told they were captive bred...we received 40 adult sized frogs...yeah, somebody breeds hundreds of one species, raises them to adult sizes and then wholesales them all for under $15 a piece...give me a break...


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## dom

Tony said:


> With a large enough founding population and proper genetic management (ASN!  ) there really is no need for continued imports once a species is established.


I agree and thats a good point, but do we have enough variation right now for some of these species or morphs?


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## Tony

dom said:


> I agree and thats a good point, but do we have enough variation right now for some of these species or morphs?


Probably not for most species, especially if a captive population suitable for reintroduction is the goal.


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## nathan

thedude said:


> actually its an issue of supply and demand. if 1000 pumilio were imported to the US and we all boycott them and they all die then the 1000 pumilio that came in would be the damage done. however, if 1000 pumilio come in and we purchase them then the importers made money and know there is a demand for them. if there is a demand for them then they will supply them and thus the cycle goes all over again...ensuring even more damage will be done.


The only question here would be out of the lets say 1000 frogs that come in and get bought in the U.S. market how many of them get wholesaled to dealers, how many end up in pet shops to die there or go into the hands of people that really have no clue what they are doing with dart frogs but buy them on impulse or because they were talked into them by a salesman in the shop. And then out of that 1000 how many of them actually make it into the hands of someone that can take care of them and possibly breed them?

I would hate to see these beautiful creatures perish with out a chance to save a few . . .

I am afraid that by just a few members on dendroboard changing the way they purchase frogs isn’t going to stop the demand for them or stop the importation of them.

Maybe if more froggers here decided that they would supply the pet shops with their captive bred offspring, and more importantly be there to give advice to the stores that they can pass on to their customers. On how to properly take care of them. And even further on why it’s important to buy captive bred vs wild caught. . . If a pet store can get quality animals and have less loss, then I’m sure they would be more inclined to explore that option. 

Another Idea would be to set up presentations, or a booth at local shows. Or give out handouts filled with facts about the pros of c.b. and cons of wild caught . . . There used to be a group here at the local show that would set up and give out info on keeping iguanas as pets. They didn’t sell anything, but were there just to inform the public.

Changing the demand for these frogs is going to take a lot more effort and work then just some of us here on this site having an opinion on it . . .


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## jubjub47

joshsfrogs said:


> With April 15th approaching I just wanted to point out that if you sold frogs you HAVE to claim that as income. Hobby vs. Business only applies to deductions and not income. You could get audited...


Yup, it's best to report even that small income since the IRS tends to look at small things like this and make you pay. That being said, if you're return falls withing normal parameters for your income you're not likely to get audited either way.


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## skylsdale

dom said:


> I agree and thats a good point, but do we have enough variation right now for some of these species or morphs?


For the most part, yes (assuming a 100 year management plan for genetic diversity). The problem isn't numbers of animals and genetic variation...the problem is lack of proper management. We could have threefold what we need to actually maintain captive genetic diversity, but if people don't consciously and actively manage their animals (*cough*ASN*cough*) then it doesn't matter.

The problem isn't that we don't have the animals to begin doing this, because we do.

The problem isn't that we don't have the system and infrastructure in place to track and properly manage them all for maximum genetic diversity, because we do.

The problem is that very few people are actively doing it.

The ASN has put together a handful of Taxon Management Plans (TMPs) that are the 'directions' as to how to manage a given species of captive amphibians. However, simply putting a TMP together and releasing it to the hobby doesn't mean the species is being managed: it requires that enough specific people keeping that species or population come together, assess and track their animals, and then *actively manage* those animals. Until that last bit happens, everything is still just awash in the sea of the hobby.


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## ravengritz

"Yup, it's best to report even that small income since the IRS tends to look at small things like this and make you pay."

Depends on the amount. As a part-time private contractor or small business owner there's often no reason to report income below $400/year.


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## JJuchems

I do not mean to hijack, the door was open. 

Here is great article:
business, Retail business - Is Your Hobby Really a Business?
This really shows the importance of keeping good records of expenses.


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## Roadrunner

It`s the same w/ captive breeding. Considering most hobbyists don`t breed their frogs for 10+ years, if they sell them for cheaper than they can be supplied, then no business` breed them and we go back to WC. Look at tricolor, auratus, etc. and now tincs that were all bred in good #`s and then disappeared. As for my business, I won`t change it to an unsustainable system that bottlenecks and looses genetic diversity. I`ll choose to leave the business before i do that. It`s basically the same thing thats happened w/ every ma and pa business. You can only stay in it as long as your ethics will let you. I`ve seen this 2x before in the hobby and we`ve already lost more than we have in the hobby. AS Ron said, not many are tracking lineage and hardly anyone has ever asked me if my frogs were sibs or any lineage info. From this a business would think no one cares about anything but breeding the frogs to make money. At the very least they think that lineage and inbreeding doesn`t matter. How is a business supposed to conduct itself in that sense? If you see everyone jumping on cheaper and cheaper frogs, wc or cb, what do you do then when you know that if azureus sell for $25ea that no one will buy auratus at even $20ea. You stop breeding auratus and probably azureus too. 

So to recap, every time frogs get cheaper and cheaper from people who think that if they produce them they sell that day, the more get squeezed out of the hobby and get relatively little care. The business do what they can but ultimately they are shaped by the hobbyists. Which is at the root of us always having to go back to WC.

This is your hobby, how you treat it is the future of your hobby. If your lazy and don`t want to take responsibility for going out and finding homes for what you produced you can sit here and lower your prices till they sell but it has consequences. W/ shipping prices the way they are you should definately hit your local petshops to supply ff`s and frogs. Hi gas prices gives everyone one up on their local markets.

And w/ spring almost here and summer around the corner this is probably the last you`ll hear of it from me. 

Best of Luck.

Thoughts?

P.S. thanks Josh and Jason for the info and links on taxes. One of the real biggies is collecting your local county and state sales tax, if you have them.



thedude said:


> actually its an issue of supply and demand. if 1000 pumilio were imported to the US and we all boycott them and they all die then the 1000 pumilio that came in would be the damage done. however, if 1000 pumilio come in and we purchase them then the importers made money and know there is a demand for them. if there is a demand for them then they will supply them and thus the cycle goes all over again...ensuring even more damage will be done.


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## Roadrunner

Yes, but if your state has sales tax they want you to collect it.



ravengritz said:


> "Yup, it's best to report even that small income since the IRS tends to look at small things like this and make you pay."
> 
> Depends on the amount. As a part-time private contractor or small business owner there's often no reason to report income below $400/year.


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## NDokai

thedude said:


> actually its an issue of supply and demand. if 1000 pumilio were imported to the US and we all boycott them and they all die then the 1000 pumilio that came in would be the damage done. however, if 1000 pumilio come in and we purchase them then the importers made money and know there is a demand for them. if there is a demand for them then they will supply them and thus the cycle goes all over again...ensuring even more damage will be done.


Adam, I realize that by purchasing wild caught frogs, we are supporting this type of operation. My point was, that there will likely be demnd elsewhere, even if we could somehow convince everyone on DB, to refuse wild caught. There will always be other markets, maybe in Europe, or Asia. There will still be operations bringing wild caught frogs to whatever market is profitable. And if the frogs are legally caught and exported, it would be a shame to see all of them end up in a market or country, or culture,that is not concerned with longterm management. For example: We refuse to buy exports of new frog X, so the exporters start shipping them to Taiwan, where they may sell for $20 retail, and very few serious hobbyists keep them alive. In 5 years, frog X is now presumed extinct in the wild, and there are only a handfull of the left alive in captivity. Now what did we accomplish by refusing to buy any? Conserving the species in the wild, while establishing breeding stock for a sustainable captive population, is th best way to go. I still don't see how a few of us db members refusing all wild caught frogs will make much difference. 

Nick


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## thedude

NDokai said:


> Adam, I realize that by purchasing wild caught frogs, we are supporting this type of operation. My point was, that there will likely be demnd elsewhere, even if we could somehow convince everyone on DB, to refuse wild caught. There will always be other markets, maybe in Europe, or Asia. There will still be operations bringing wild caught frogs to whatever market is profitable. And if the frogs are legally caught and exported, it would be a shame to see all of them end up in a market or country, or culture,that is not concerned with longterm management. For example: We refuse to buy exports of new frog X, so the exporters start shipping them to Taiwan, where they may sell for $20 retail, and very few serious hobbyists keep them alive. In 5 years, frog X is now presumed extinct in the wild, and there are only a handfull of the left alive in captivity. Now what did we accomplish by refusing to buy any? Conserving the species in the wild, while establishing breeding stock for a sustainable captive population, is th best way to go. I still don't see how a few of us db members refusing all wild caught frogs will make much difference.
> 
> Nick


you have a very good point, but i still think i do too. first of all, a species isnt going to go extinct do to legal imports, they will from smuggling pressures though. and the europeans that buy smuggled frogs say things like "we need to take these from the wild to make sure they are in captivity when the populations go extinct", but are they right about that? no. you dont say, "ill buy these WC frogs, that were unsustainably harvested in large numbers with lots of health risks, in case they go extinct in the wild". especially when your just adding fuel to the fire. look at shade grown, organic, fair trade coffee: thats all i buy, so i increase the demand for it (small amount as it may be), even if someone in japan or whatever is buying tons of coffee that isnt sustainably grown, i still made a small difference.

your last sentence is very interesting, i believe someone on the board has a quote that says something like "dont doubt that a small group of people can make a difference, in fact, its the only thing that ever has"

my favorite quote "be the change you wish to see in the world" - Ghandi


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## Philsuma

thedude said:


> look at shade grown, organic, fair trade coffee: thats all i buy, so i increase the demand for it (small amount as it may be), even if someone in japan or whatever is buying tons of coffee that isnt sustainably grown, i still made a small difference.
> 
> "dont doubt that a small group of people can make a difference, in fact, its the only thing that ever has"
> 
> my favorite quote "be the change you wish to see in the world" - Ghandi


 
Well said......


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## skylsdale

thedude said:


> and the europeans that buy smuggled frogs say things like "we need to take these from the wild to make sure they are in captivity when the populations go extinct", but are they right about that? no. you dont say, "ill buy these WC frogs, that were unsustainably harvested in large numbers with lots of health risks, in case they go extinct in the wild". especially when your just adding fuel to the fire.


Just to be fair, Americans do this, too...just in a different way. We do so by purchasing the captive-bred offspring of these originally WC/smuggled animals, and/or purchasing highly suspect "CB" frogs from European sources. By doing so, we support the smuggling trade in the sense that those folks know there will be hordes of American hobbyists chomping at the bit to buy them.

Ask questions about the animals you purchase. If you can't gain sufficient information regarding their history in order to ensure their legality and origins, perhaps it's best to refrain from buying them.



> look at shade grown, organic, fair trade coffee: thats all i buy, so i increase the demand for it (small amount as it may be), even if someone in japan or whatever is buying tons of coffee that isnt sustainably grown, i still made a small difference.


I'm not picking on you, Adam...but it should be mentioned that the guidelines for "shade grown" are fairly loose: I've talked to folks who have visited "shade grown" coffee plantations in Costa Rica and were surprised to see large tracts of cleared forest growing traditionally sun-grown coffee. However, by having one or two trees per acre, they were able to call it "shade grown." Similar to the "farm raised" or "ranched" frogs we see coming out of Panama, IMO. Neither is really solving the problem or making the situation any better...but it sure helps to ease the conscience of the consumer.


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## thedude

skylsdale said:


> Just to be fair, Americans do this, too...just in a different way. We do so by purchasing the captive-bred offspring of these originally WC/smuggled animals, and/or purchasing highly suspect "CB" frogs from European sources. By doing so, we support the smuggling trade in the sense that those folks know there will be hordes of American hobbyists chomping at the bit to buy them.
> 
> Ask questions about the animals you purchase. If you can't gain sufficient information regarding their history in order to ensure their legality and origins, perhaps it's best to refrain from buying them.


dont even get me started on that  i have said the same things tons of times. its very frustrating isnt it? hopefully people will pick the UE and INIBICO imports more often than the EU imports of smuggled frogs. its especially irritating when we bring in frogs that only UE has imported legally...and yet we have them from europe?? theres obviously a flaw in the systme somewhere...

phil, thank you!


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## thedude

skylsdale said:


> I'm not picking on you, Adam...but it should be mentioned that the guidelines for "shade grown" are fairly loose: I've talked to folks who have visited "shade grown" coffee plantations in Costa Rica and were surprised to see large tracts of cleared forest growing traditionally sun-grown coffee. However, by having one or two trees per acre, they were able to call it "shade grown." Similar to the "farm raised" or "ranched" frogs we see coming out of Panama, IMO. Neither is really solving the problem or making the situation any better...but it sure helps to ease the conscience of the consumer.



that sucks, i wasnt aware. thats really too bad about that.

however, my point is still valid, just have to change something. instead of shade grown coffee, use sustainably harvested wood, paper, seafood...the list goes on.


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## ravengritz

thedude said:


> however, my point is still valid, just have to change something. instead of shade grown coffee, use sustainably harvested wood, paper, seafood...the list goes on.


I agree. When my husband and I were preparing for the birth of our son, we made a conscious decision to use cloth diapers. We just couldn't justify putting 75 disposable diapers into the land-fill every week. We're only one family but we kept nearly 10,000 diapers out of the landfill. When you add up every effort, a massive impact can be made.
Melissa


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## Roadrunner

INIBICO is not in business anymore. Any INIBICO frogs that are going to be available are cb offspring from past shipments that are bred here in the states since there are no more inibico shipments coming in.
Basically the person who did INIBICO is now importing frogs from Europe. 



thedude said:


> dont even get me started on that  i have said the same things tons of times. its very frustrating isnt it? hopefully people will pick the UE and INIBICO imports more often than the EU imports of smuggled frogs. its especially irritating when we bring in frogs that only UE has imported legally...and yet we have them from europe?? theres obviously a flaw in the systme somewhere...
> 
> phil, thank you!


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## JeremyHuff

frogfarm said:


> INIBICO is not in business anymore. Any INIBICO frogs that are going to be available are cb offspring from past shipments that are bred here in the states since there are no more inibico shipments coming in.
> Basically the person who did INIBICO is now importing frogs from Europe.


A couple weeks ago I wrote INIBICO to find out what was happening. They had to shut down because a road was being built through the property, etc. The are reorganizing now and said they hope start exporting mysteriosus and possibly captivas as well as orchids....


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## thedude

frogfarm said:


> INIBICO is not in business anymore. Any INIBICO frogs that are going to be available are cb offspring from past shipments that are bred here in the states since there are no more inibico shipments coming in.
> Basically the person who did INIBICO is now importing frogs from Europe.


ya i know, that person seems to do that with a lot of frogs that are in fact from originating smuggled frogs to europe. its really too bad. especially with frogs like varaderos which we have plenty of and they were brought in sustainably and legally.


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## Chris Miller

JeremyHuff said:


> The are reorganizing now and said they hope start exporting mysteriosus and possibly captivas as well as orchids....


BOO! I hope not. It's going to let all the captivus in Asia become laundered. Not to mention all the mysteriosus in the US too.


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## Chris Miller

Yeah, I know there is quite a bit in the US too, and disappointingly most of it is owned by 'Frog Gods' who should really know better than to own stuff like that.


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## JeremyHuff

Aurotaenia said:


> BOO! I hope not. It's going to let all the captivus in Asia become laundered. Not to mention all the mysteriosus in the US too.


But if they are coming in legally from Peru, that is a good thing. The illegal ones are here, and nothing is going to change that. All the Brazilian, French Guiana and Venezuelan frogs were illegally collected and smuggled....I'd rather know mine are actually legal and captive reared and exported with permits.


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## Chris Miller

JeremyHuff said:


> But if they are coming in legally from Peru, that is a good thing. The illegal ones are here, and nothing is going to change that. All the Brazilian, French Guiana and Venezuelan frogs were illegally collected and smuggled....I'd rather know mine are actually legal and captive reared and exported with permits.


I guess so. Maybe we just shouldn't own these two particular frogs. Here's what I really hope (and what I know won't happen): that they are able to bring in so many at once that the market floods and these frogs sell for less than $100 a piece.


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## MonarchzMan

I think that Kevin really hit the nail on the head. It's nice that people in the hobby can be conservation minded, but even if the active folks on DB made an effort to only purchase captive bred frogs, it wouldn't have that much of an impact because many people buying frogs are not on DB and don't even realize the problems caused by wild collection.

If a difference is to be made, it needs to be approached by conservation and petitioning USFWS to be stricter about import of frogs and Central/South American governments to be stricter about export. It's sickening that 15,000 pumilio were imported in 4 years. Most of which were likely coming from the Bocas del Toro region. 3000+ a year is enough to wipe out populations, and neither USFWS nor Panama recognizes populations, just the species. That is a big problem. It's made even worse by attempted lies about FR frogs coming in when it's very likely not true at all. Fortunately Panama is getting stricter with its permiting process, but I don't think that it'll help until populations are recognized.

I'm not calling for an outright ban on import/export (although, some species probably should be), but stricter quotas and closer attention to what frogs are being brought in would be the most effective way at protecting these frogs. The sad truth is that if DB members refuse to buy WC frogs, then importers will just sell them to someone else. There's no lack of markets that they'll go to. The solution is to go to conservation agencies.


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