# Rio froglet variation in color *more pics 1.20



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

This is the male and the female looks exactly the same. Found this extremely little guy hopping around the tank last night.


















pulled the next day


















I know Aaron has morphed out some of these guys as well, just curious to see the diversity.

Rob


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Wow, that's really intersting. They look nothing alike.


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

Thats crazy! Thx for sharing


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

My male/female pair are a little more orange and have finer spotting, more like cristobals. Their offspring have all been a finely speckled deep maroon. I haven't gotten any past about two months, though, so I don't know how the coloration changes with time.

I'll try to post some pics (if I can get some - they love to dart into the leaf litter as soon as they see me).

Ryan


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## mattmcf (Sep 24, 2006)

thats really interesting.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Very cool pictures. Thanks for sharing.


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## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

very cool


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## SickVoodoo (Oct 9, 2005)

Are the adults from the new imports?


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

They were from the very first SNDF import in mid 2006.

Rob


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## wax32 (May 9, 2006)

I l ike the froglet's color more than the parents!


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## TPopovich (May 7, 2004)

Rob,

The first two I morphed out from the ones we swapped looks just like yours except it's light orange instead of the greenish hue, the other looks like the cristobals expect it's a deep maroon. 

The second two that morphed out look exactly like red amys except one has a small yellow spot on the sides near the rear limbs. I lost two of them to what looks like CA deficiency. I just got some calcium gluconate and I'm going to try treating the next two that just about to come out of the water and see if I have better luck. 

I hate to start this debate but I have a feeling that the rios/cristos/uyma rivers from that 2006 import are just variations of the same morph.

Tom


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

TPopovich said:


> I hate to start this debate but I have a feeling that the rios/cristos/uyma rivers from that 2006 import are just variations of the same morph.


I emailed Aaron H. to have him post pics of his Branco froglets - but I think he may have left for the Michigan meeting already. Anyway - when I was at Aaron's last weekend and saw several of his Rio Froglets - they looked very much like some of the frogs that came in were dubbed Uyama. When he gets back, hopefully he will post some pics.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

TPopovich said:


> ...I hate to start this debate but I have a feeling that the rios/cristos/uyma rivers from that 2006 import are just variations of the same morph.
> 
> Tom


I think you're right. This could get interesting.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

...I was wondering what the offspring would look like when I seen the for sale ads of the parents.
Very interesting.
It will also be interesting to see how these froglets look when they mature.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

bump for new froglet pics

they just laid 2 more clutches so they are back at it again.

rob


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## Raymond (Aug 26, 2006)

Hmm, the second looks more like the parents. This is very interesting, I can't wait to see what their future offspring look like. 

By the way, congradulations with breeding them.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ya, I think you may be right w/ the exception of the uyama`s. they act different and call a little different. I think they collected from several segment populations between said locations where each populations relatively the same w/ some individual variations while one eventually grades into another. 
I have produced all black/brown froglets w/ blue undersides which changed all the way along to look very much like the parents eventually. 
pics 1-4 are the first clutch, almost adult now, there second clutch is now a month or 2 old, pics 5-7.
































































The patterning is already starting to break up on the 1-2 month olds. I`ll try and ressurect the original post where I have pics of the #1-4 as froglets.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

also, you have to realize w/ panama,w/ these populations, individuals from one population sire another. thru extensions thru the wet season they move into new areas and then get cut off from the original and spread along a line. individual froglets colorations may be very diverse in an area resulting from the original population that sired it. well I KNOW it`s a stretch but it`s my theory at least. This may explain the oddball green rios popping up here and there and orange uyamas and so forth. possibly remnants on the outskirts of populations.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

This is exactly the reason I haven't got any yet thank you so much for your photo's.
cya


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

What`s the reason?
No problem. I`m finding it quite fun to start taking pics and documenting what i can since I have a lot more time now.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

trow said:


> This is exactly the reason I haven't got any yet thank you so much for your photo's.
> cya


Echo that...

Interesting frogs to say the least, I like some of the pics of the "christo's" that some people have, and almost thought of seeking a pair, but then I started seeing some that looked fairly similar being called "rio's"...

...Things with this batch of imports are just a bit too vague for me to be comfortable with them...even the bastis seem to look different.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I saw a video of frogs from san christobal. Orange to yellowish to red w/ spots lines or reticulations w/ blue or silver/grey legs. easier to identify when you see 50 in a row.
I don`t see the problem, get 2 that look alike or 4 and breed them and see what the offspring look like from froglet to adult.
You guys are toooo spoiled. :lol: you think people in the past worried which population of blue pumilio these ones coming in were or where these greens came from and whether they were chiriqui river or grande or bruno or whatever. no they did not. they waited till they were documented and classified them accordingly. although it was a lot easier back then these are mostly a new thing, mainland pumilio collected from closely related populations which probably mix genes in the wild, other than christobal and bastis, and i`m not so sure there. bastimentos island and christobal look as if they could connect at lo tide. there literally a stones throw away well maybe for a major league pitcher. they look very close in the video.
the mainland uyama to rio branco probably share very similar genes along the way. I don`t think that this shipment should be wasted because of this. Don`t blacklist legal rare pumilio because you don`t understand their background. If you find locale data rio branco pumilio don`t breed them to these. if you get uyamas w/ locale data don`t breed them to these. there are probably more populations than there are names for them inbetween. soon we`ll have "morph 43.024944 N, 78.508365 W and morph xxx. without knowing if there are any impassible barriers inbetween and if they(rivers) dry up or not or if the grasslands inbetween seasonally support bromeliads, etc,etc you`ll still never know a given populations boundaries. I`m now pretty sure mine are christos after seeing the video. confusing but get pics of the parents and look for similar offspring or line breed a generation.
are we going to throw out whole shipments because they didnt do it right?
What if pumilio stop coming in and we loose them all because nobody wanted to step forward and breed them till we find out (another video comes out or people actually visit these pops and document it).
It`ll really stink if it`s one big segment population from rio branco to uyama river and they all interbreed along the way gradually changing color and pattern interspersed along the way. then breeding like "morphs together and having offspring wouldn`t be such a bad thing. You guys havent lived thru a 3-4 year pumilio drought.
these things are coming in relatively parasite free, healthy and breeding readily. I`m telling you spoiled. :lol: 
I`m against hybridizing as much as the next but under certain circumstances we have to try w/ what we have got.
Ahh you got me doing it too, it`s not even HYBRIDIZING.
If we stick w/ one bloodline or no bloodlines of them in the hobby we`re just as screwed.
If they come in locale specific in the future then decide w/ pics of the parents where they fit, it`ll all be documented if it`s registered in frogtracks to import date.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

oh ya, btw those look like christobals. everyone get dendrobates pumilio der bocas inseln(dvd). the diversity of frogs on christobal rivals that of bastimentos. fine spot, no spot, blotched to reticulated and yellowish thru deep red. legs blue to grey/silver, spotted sometimes and sometimes not and varying amounts of leg color down to almost solid orange to red individuals.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I'm not suggesting they should be blacklisted, or that that shipment should be scrapped...or people shouldn't breed them with well matched pairs...
Just saying...not for me.

Thanks for sharing the pics, it will be real interesting to see what the F2's look like.


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> everyone get dendrobates pumilio der bocas inseln(dvd).


Where might one find this video? I googled it but all the hits were German websites.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

it`s a german video not dubbed. I got a copy from black jungle.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Wow you got all that from one statement.I said nothing of blacklisting them far from it just a bit confusing IMO.
cya


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

First off, I think we have to point out that pumilio, at morphing, may or may not (depending on morph) look anything like they do as adults. Patterns develop and change. Colors develop and change. What the froglet morphs out like is not representative of what the froglet looks like as an adult... I think a lot of people are jumping on the fact that a froglet christo looks like an adult uyama river II when it in fact, means little to nothing.

Also this doesn't take into account the population's natural variability, and the history of pumilio and the geological history of panama... which is rather complex. Some populations have extreme variation while others don't... I believe this is related to the geologic history... some populations have been geologically isolated longer than others (more regularity in color/pattern) while others have newly formed (more likely in lowland populations) where genes in relatively recent geologic history, have mixed, creating a wider variety in populations. This is all a personal theory, but seems to make sense to those I've talked to about it (who would know). Historically they probably came from very similar genetic stock, but with the rise in sea level, populations became isolated (classic ice age speciation example), water level drops, lots of new land to fill... filled in with frogs from the various populations, so those areas probably have more variation... areas that are currently separated by water tho likely haven't seen each other since before the last ice age and have little to no genetic flow... the similar founding stock would allow for similar looking animals but that doesn't mean they've had genetic flow in the last few 10s of thousands of years...

In the US, "variability" does not seem to go over well... oddballs are either taken out of the breeding pool because they don't look standard, or the complete opposite - line bred to have the color/pattern with lower occurance occur more in the population... with a hobby that has been somewhat regular with its morphs due to lack of recent WC importations in the recent history (late 90s) it seems like those more recent in the hobby tend towards the hybrid/whatever theories. Yes, I think the importation could be handled a little better since we've got a couple populations coming in that "oddballs" of a population look similar to another, but I also don't like the trend of breeding animals that look exactly alike and further isolating animals into "like frog" populations when we've just got variation...

Aaron - it was a lot easier to deal with pumilio way back when, because the frogs we had looked obviously different... we had one red (bribri), one spotted (bastimentos), one blue(darklands), one green (shepard), etc. With new populations that can be confused, names are important, so they don't get mixed... say you have "green" pumilio... are the shepard Is? True Cayo de Agua (with locality info)? Chiriqui Rivers? Yellow Bellies (which where confused with chiriqui rivers and some have sold as Cayo de Aguas because they look like them but will we ever know?). You just can't say "green pumilio" anymore... not saying exact locality needs to be known tho, just a name to stick with it... you think we have locality info for Alanis? Patricia? Nope... but we have a name that separates them from all the other Tinc morphs...

And yes, with the mainland populations, part of the issue is that the populations are not separate little island populations like the bocas del toro island populations (that, morph wise, is being spoiled) and rather are a continuous population... there is some genetic flow going on there, but you have to take into account a couple things... two populations far away from each other will have some genetic flow, but limited, and also that colors and patterns in pumilio repeat throughout the population, with numerous pumilio populations with little to no genetic flow with each other having almost identical characteristics... happens the same with tincs. 

Of one thing we should have learned from the range of morphs in some of the species of pumilio, and especially the cases of mullerian mimicry in the family, is that looks don't mean much, especially when you're trying to determine how closely related they are.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

thanks for the explanation corey. 
jumping in and stating "thats why I won`t get them" and another saying ditto is like your trying to give them a bad name. If you don`t like them and don`t want to deal with them fine but there are people trying to sort this out.
It`s hard enough w/out the negative feedback. 
I don`t mean to jump down your throat about it but I`m more than a little happy these guys are coming in since it`s been so long and I`m a little disheartened to think that people who have pumilio and will get more say that these guys just aren`t for me. 
You don`t realize how touchy these guys were in the 90`s shipments. No one treated. If they were parasitized and crowded you`d have whole shipments die weeks to months after import.
I don`t care what kind of pumilio they are, if they are clean and healthy and legally imported, they are for me. 
You are obviously more worried that one or 2 frogs get mislabeled and "muddy" the genepool than seeing them dissappear altogether.
You realize by the time we get this all sorted out they will not be importing them anymore and may even be gone from the wild for good.
I`m not trying to preach just trying to rebuttle negative statements and put this in perspective. You stated they aren`t for you and I`m explaining why they are for me.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think the quality of these frogs has turned out to be rather good, with only a few problems that have been worked out with regular treatment by the importers... much better than the last shipment of pumilio (late 90s BJ shipment) and better than many WCs I've seen since. I just wish the exporter would at least label the frogs so we knew which was which coming in! Not where they came from, but at least these frogs were from the same area... there are just so many that could be either or... some are so clear cut...

I almost wonder if breeding the clear cut frogs would be a good idea, and then any resulting froglets would be definite, as their ancestry was from animals clearly Christobal for example. This would unfortunately leave a bunch of unclear frogs, but a large majority of the frogs imported do not become founding stock for generations down the road (both fortunate and unfortunate in this case). As long as some pretty clearly known animals are used, it could work... and as long as ALL colors/patterns of froglets from these animals, no matter how funky they seem, are used in future generations, we really wouldn't lose too much variability.

I dunno, the hobby has become so highly focused on locality that some of it is getting a little extreme... we should be happy to get what we are getting, especially in a completely legal way (not having some of the "grey" legality some of the other frogs have unfortunately had) and especially since many of these animals seem to be rather hardy types... excellent beginner pumilio, worth keeping around.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

(thats why I wont get them) Reread my post.I said nothing of the kind.
I am one of those people who is actually quite picky or as you stated spoiled.I admit it I don't care, if I am gonna buy some I want to know where they are from. I have had some of these issues with my own pum's and it has been a pain. 
cya


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