# What gender is this Citronella



## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

I'm new on here. Been in the hobby about 7 months. Could someone please sex ID my frog, so I can get a mate?


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Welcome to the forum

How old is the little fella? My guess would be male due to how lean he is. I actually would recommend that you try to get a little more mass on him, just to be on the safe side.

John


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## reptiles12 (Jul 18, 2012)

My guess is a male, but like said I would definitely add some weight to make sure!

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

if you can get a really good side profile pic, it shows how the body is structured.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

As said a good side pic would help and maybe a close up of the front feet. Other than that it looks to be a healthy frog, most frogs look skinny when streched out


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

My guess is that it's likely male. How old is this frog? His toepads aren't as obvious as they could be, but larger already than most females I've worked with.

Citros are some of the harder ones too keep weight on too for whatever reason. I prefer to keep them on crickets for a main diet for that reason BUT you don't have to... FFs with supplementing of crickets, termites and/or FF larvae on a regular basis will keep them in good condition. 

These would be a good one to have "larvae cultures" on the side for which you harvest the larvae from - only a little bit of media, toss some flies in for a few days to a week them dump them out (I usually just feed them out after since it's only a couple dozen adults), no excelsior. When the larvae are the size you want just dump the container into a strainer and just rinse the media off and feed! Om nom nom nom...


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Looks like a too-thin female to me.


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

whitethumb said:


> if you can get a really good side profile pic, it shows how the body is structured.


Ok, sure. The reason he/she is always climbing the wall is that I formerly had a piece of Styrofoam separating the tank in 2.


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Thank you everyone. You're marvelous.



KeroKero said:


> How old is this frog?
> 
> I prefer to keep them on crickets for a main diet for that reason BUT you don't have to...
> 
> ...


I don't know age, because I bought him/her only 4 months ago, already this size. Do crickets ever cause compaction? It is possible it swallowed a cricket and it got stuck in the gut Anyway it rarely eats large FF(and not if they're dusted), only small FF which are difficult to breed/buy and springtails, so FF larve sounds great. Won't the FF all drown in the media without smth to crawl on?


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

I say male.


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## Dweezy247 (May 2, 2013)

Personally I think the frog is too young to tell the sex IMO,and as far as feeding crickets I wouldn't recommend it.Crickets even babies are usually way too big for dart frogs,except maybe terribilis and maybe few other species.You said your frog wouldn't eat the fruit flies does he eat the crickets?The crickets can cause impaction,and also are known to carry diseases with them more than other feeders.Seen something few days ago about a persons pac man frogs getting chytrid from crickets,so be careful.Also,culturing flightless fruit flies is quite simple unless your making your own media mix,which still isn't that hard.The fruitflies can be cultured continuously as long as you make your fresh batches when needed.If your frog isn't eating the flies or crickets maybe he has a parasite or something of the sorts keeping him from having an appetite.Just my thoughts.


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## Dweezy247 (May 2, 2013)

also can you post a pic with a coin or something that would show size comparision for everybody?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I keep looking at the photos, and while I still want to side with male, I'm so borderline I'm really wondering if it's really just too young.

This may help - Sexing Dendrobates Tinctorius - Dendrobates & Epipedobates - PoisonFrog

And this one has photos of citros as well: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/32295-how-young-can-you-sex-d-tinctorius.html

Weight is really hit or miss on sexing tincs, it could just be an underweight female. This animal is a bit underweight anyways so that isn't going to help. On the other end of the spectrum I see a ton of overweight frogs that causes the opposite issue... they are so fat that whatever distinct shape you'd see between the two is blurred except on a very gravid female.

The side photo posted isn't going to help body structure - you need the animal on the ground in a comfortable, relaxed position (not hunched on the ground due to being scared). Crawling on the wall flattens out the angle of the back that we are looking for. Toss some food in the tank and get photos while it's eating is the easiest way to catch it relaxed.

Body structure seen from the side would clearly show the back arch that is distinct in mature females - it is a build that is pretty clear in the giant morphs (check out the above links - they show photos that show it clearly). This makes them look like they have more of a belly, and when they are full of eggs they do! But it doesn't really make them wider from above, they have heavy bodies that hang. They will still show this arch when underweight, while males still show the build typical of auratus. BUT - only on full sized mature females, and while most tincs that would range from 9-12 months, it can take 18-24 in Citros. Subadults in the giant morphs are a pain to sex for this reason, they can breed before this shows clearly! Grr!

In the giant morphs you can get the toepad differences to be more subtle as well. I want to say male, but the more I look at it the more I really wonder about it (especially the middle photo on the original post makes me not think male, while the silhouettes make me think male). The size differences just aren't as obvious, and males the toepads are usually more than twice the width of the toe while in females its around twice the width of the toe. Going by the only photo that is straight from above I lean towards male, but if that frog is under 18 months I'd say it could still be either way.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's a bummer not knowing the age, and being underweight will only slow down the process of finding out. Concentrate on getting weight on him/her/it and check back in 6 months. Sometimes the sexual characteristics don't fully develop in some animals due to various stressers anyways, so that isn't helping.

As per crickets... I've fed 2 week old crickets to Citronellas on a regular basis and there is NO WAY pinheads (that you breed yourself and are under 48 hours old) are too big for PDFs. The only ones that can't take them may be froglet Pumilio, but even baby thumbnails eat them straight out of the water. The smallest size sold in pet stores may be what you are thinking of (and are typically 3-4 week olds) and it is true they usually are too big for Citronellas because while the frogs are large, they like tiny food. Instead I buy the large crickets (when they are winged adults), and breed them myself. Only takes a handful of females to get a few hundred pinheads  This is a bit of work though, and unless you need crickets for something else then larvae and termites are the way to go. Plus you can feed them in a bowl  Only true fresh pinheads stay in a bowl...

I'm surprised that your source of flies actually has Hydei and not Melanogaster, as Melanogaster (the small ones) are actually a lot easier for suppliers to breed. I'd recommend getting a breeding kit and get wingless Melanogaster for this guy, as they are a bit less active and easy to deal with. I got the Fruit Fly Company kit off Petco's website (which comes with wingless melanos) and the smaller containers are great for only having one or two tanks to feed.

The excelsior that is added isn't for the larvae - if your media is the correct consistency they shouldn't be out of the media (if they are it's too wet). It's actually there for the flies to crawl on and for the larvae to pupate out on. Since you don't need them to pupate out they don't need it  For culturing just for larvae it's ok if the media is a bit wet, as having them crawling up the sides out of the media can let you scrape them off the side and feed. If you have cultures doing that already you can scrape them off with a rubber spatula (and then work to keep future cultures from being that wet!).

And a bit of an idea not everyone is going to like... if you only feed the frog one type of food it's whole life it's going to be resistance to new foods. Every time I introduce something new or a difference size they tend to tongue drag. If you offer on a regular basis they will get used to it an eat it. I purposely feed my frogs everything but the kitchen sink so they will accept most foods. If it gets their attention and they go after it, 9 out of 10 it's something they will eat if you force the issue. Just like kids and their vegetable. Helps out in times like this when you need weight on frogs, because it's many times harder if the frog is picky!


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## mfsidore (Oct 10, 2012)

It does look a bit thin though... Maybe if you gave it some termites you could fatten it up?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Termites are my go to, but this time of year it may be hard to impossible to get  unless someone lives in Florida? Lucky ducks...

When the ground temps are above 40F you should be able to go hunting for them. I usually go in mid spring when it's been consistently warm and fill a bucket with them. If you harvest them from a log and keep the wood moist (usually a lid does that mostly for me) you can end up keeping them year around  they don't reproduce, but they are so easy to work with otherwise lol.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Corey...so what besides the kitchen sink have you tried feeding? It sounds like a good idea...and follows my theory with my cats/dog--if you're hungry enough you'll eat it... Great to see you active on DB...you always have such great observations and ideas...nothing like experience....


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Couldn't turn down commenting on Citronella since they are a favorite of mine  I"m still around but I tend to mostly read. So hard to keep up with all the online frog stuff now that I don't bother most of the time.

The way to broaden their horizon is typically replacing one of their meals with the novel meal - if it's something they tongue drag after attempting or get their attention grabbed but don't go after it I consider them novel. With an underweight frog I'd add another meal with the novel food rather than replacing one of their current meals. Keep trying the same novel meal (don't add others) until it eats them consistently. Once it's no big thing, THEN try the next one.

Also consider conditioning your frog to bowl feed. Yes, bowl feeding can make fat frogs if you do it all the time BUT it's amazingly handy for gaining weight on frogs and keeping some feeders isolated. I love free range flies, pinhead crickets, isopods, and springtails but never feed RFB larvae or termites without a bowl. Also handy.... RFB (Rice Flour Beetle) Larvae die pretty quick in humidity, and a bowl conditioned frog will clean out the bowl well before they die. 

So... beyond kitchen sink... other than what was already mentioned I'd add on:

- springtails (I keep a variety of species in the various sizes, different froglets like some more than others)
- Rice Flour Beetle Larvae, Mealworms, or Lesser Mealworms (RGB the easiest, and stay in the better size range BUT don't handle the humidity well)
- Isopods (the dwarf purples are new to me but Mantella seem to enjoy them)
- Bean Beetles
- Bean Weevils (anyone still work with these?)
- Shorlinite/Drugstore beetles (anyone culture than anymore? they are smaller then bean beetles which is why I liked them. Just as easy to culture.)
- Aphids (a lot of work to culture, but I've had clean plants to harvest them from before)
- Silkworms (Fresh hatched, not everyone likes them)
- Lesser Waxworms (moths + Phyllobates = hours of fun!)
- Mantids (freshly hatched and have too many? Phyllobates will fix that!)
- Roaches (stick with ones that can't climb glass and you can bowl feed them)
- Houseflies (for larger like Phyllobates - similar to feeding lesser waxworm moths)

Never did get Firebrats to breed well enough to feed. Never tried those tiny little parasitic wasps either since I always got away with springtails to feed the tiny guys. As you can tell from some of the notes some of these feeders aren't ideal for Tincs as much, but you'd be surprised what tincs will eat when you work at it. Tincs are probably the most picky for their size, while similarly sized Phyllobates go by the rule of "if it fits in my mouth I'll eat it".


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

If that frog is over 10 months old, I'd guess female....mainly because of the toes. 

For me, body shape is hard to go by with cits because they have such a varying body shape/size from frog to frog. For instance, if it weren't for their toes, I would think my pair of cits were oppositely sexed due to their body shape.

Some cits you just cant fatten up as well, so don't feel too bad.


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

scoy said:


> As said a good side pic would help and maybe a close up of the front feet. Other than that it looks to be a healthy frog, most frogs look skinny when streched out


Not healthy, notice the grey spot on its side. This was not there a month ago.


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

whitethumb said:


> if you can get a really good side profile pic, it shows how the body is structured.


 Here are some more side photos.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

i'm guessing female, good luck


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

I was more so commenting on the weight as the pic didnt show anything and you hadnt said anything before. While it is alittle under weight I didnt feel it was to much of a problem. You should take it to an exotic vet, its been my experience that frogs with skin conditions dont last long untreated.


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Looks male


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Dweezy247 said:


> Personally I think the frog is too young to tell the sex IMO,and as far as feeding crickets I wouldn't recommend it. You said your frog wouldn't eat the fruit flies does he eat the crickets? Seen something few days ago about a persons pac man frogs getting chytrid from crickets,so be careful. Also,culturing flightless fruit flies is quite simple unless your making your own media mix,which still isn't that hard.If your frog isn't eating the flies or crickets maybe he has a parasite or something of the sorts keeping him from having an appetite.


Dweezy, I would guess that he/she is at least 10 months old by now. Sounds like some folks on here catch their feeder insects - I don't. Only once in the past year did I see termites in nature, but I was too scared of bringing a disease from outside (what-to-speak of the legalities in an apt building). I have a bucket I grow my crickets in. Is it possible to spread chytrid by CB crickets? I only tried twice to feed crickets with a forceps, but it wasn't interested at the time, and they (3 in total) escaped under leaf litter. I forgot to mention that sometimes it eats small wax worms which I culture and sometimes curlflies which I buy, but I have a poor supplier for the curlflies now. I thought FF should be a cinch - just follow the recipe, but I find it quite difficult in practice. Now I have a store-bought media mix and sometimes the FF lay, and other times not Today I saw it eating a few FF maggots, but no feasting. I have treated frog twice for parasites, so we were thinking maybe its just lonely. Or, could the poo in the tank be reinfecting the frog after its been thoroughly treated??


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

Dweezy247 said:


> also can you post a pic with a coin or something that would show size comparision for everybody?


Sorry I'm not handy with a camera, and I forgot to ask my friend. Also it would freak out and hop away if I put a coin next to it.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Nat said:


> other times not Today I saw it eating a few FF maggots, but no feasting. I have treated frog twice for parasites, so we were thinking maybe its just lonely. Or, could the poo in the tank be reinfecting the frog after its been thoroughly treated??



Nat, I am sorry to say. but until you resolve the heath issues of your frog, probably the worst thing you can do right now is get it a companion. Dart frogs do just fine by themselves and introducing a new frog at this point could very likely end badly for both frogs. 

If you don't know what parasites or if parasites are the problem, treating for parasites can cause its own set of problems and yes, if parasites were present they will infect your tank again. Normally you want to treat for parasites in a temporary tank/tub that can be totally sterilized during treatment. 

With this guys low weight and the skin problem I do think you need vet advice or at the very least start a thread in the Health section, so people who have experience in this area can try and help. In the meanwhile if he is eating the maggots.. keep that going. Perhaps there is someone local you can get help on the FF cultures?


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## Nat (Feb 11, 2014)

KeroKero said:


> For culturing just for larvae it's ok if the media is a bit wet, as having them crawling up the sides out of the media can let you scrape them off the side and feed. If you have cultures doing that already you can scrape them off with a rubber spatula (and then work to keep future cultures from being that wet!).


Me Dendrobates Citronella find yummy yummies on plate today! Many small, white squirmy things. Me Citronella give a big frog kiss to KeroKero


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