# Plants as a food source? Other food choices?



## phyllo (Jul 21, 2011)

I know they probably won't eat plants. Are there any other food choices besides insect. "Someone" will only let me keep them if they don't eat insects. They don't like insects. Will springtails in the soil work? ANY other choices?


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## ladyfaile15 (Apr 22, 2009)

darts wont eat anything that doesnt move  so it has to be insects (pinhead crickets, fruit flies, etc.) they do eat springs, but most frogs cannot live off a diet of those alone..

jamie


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Well there's some sneaky work-arounds to that...

Springtails are not considered insects. Isopods are crustaceans (not insects). In the wild I hear that most of the diets of dart frogs consists of mites (arachnids; not insects). 

I do not think that these would make a good replacement for FFs that are dusted with the proper supplements however.

Also, those foods are still "creepy-crawlies." Dart frogs don't eat anything except for creepy crawlies.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

they are carnivorous...there for they eat "meat"...so no...i dont think any frog does, except some tadpoles...


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

What "someone" doesn't know won't hurt them. Culture your foods in a closet or something hahahaha. PDF wont eat veggies. If you need something that does eat veggies look into tortoises\iguanas\uromastyx etc.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You can't go wrong with bacon..... no just joking.

If those are the rules set I'd consider another hobby. Dropping FF out of their diet will completely disrupt thier supplementing which will affect their health. Insects including mites termites, springtails, ants, crickets, spiders and flies make up their natural diet. Dont try and substitute that.

Michael


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## coxdre123 (Aug 3, 2009)

phyllo said:


> I know they probably won't eat plants. Are there any other food choices besides insect. "Someone" will only let me keep them if they don't eat insects. They don't like insects. Will springtails in the soil work? ANY other choices?


Not to be rude. But your @$&! out of luck.

#justsayin


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

IMO I see more FFs flying around my home that are naturally occuring, than I do the flightless feeders. In fact, I never see "feeder" flies out of the vivs. I use sealed tops for my enclosures. I can't see how you culturing contained colonies would be a problem, but I don't know "someone", lol!

JBear


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

phyllo said:


> I know they probably won't eat plants. Are there any other food choices besides insect. "Someone" will only let me keep them if they don't eat insects. They don't like insects. Will springtails in the soil work? ANY other choices?


phyllo, fruitflies aren't really insects, just pests.

edited to add: phyllo: consider some nice crested, gargoyle or mourning geckos. They eat powdered food with water. No bugs needed.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> You can't go wrong with bacon..... no just joking.
> 
> If those are the rules set I'd consider another hobby. Dropping FF out of their diet will completely disrupt thier supplementing which will affect their health. Insects including mites termites, springtails, ants, crickets, spiders and flies make up their natural diet. Dont try and substitute that.
> 
> Michael


hasn't there been people who've accomplished a "closed system" vivarium with a large micro fauna population and a mineral rich substrate?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> hasn't there been people who've accomplished a "closed system" vivarium with a large micro fauna population and a mineral rich substrate?


I would like to hear more on this... 

JBear


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

BM Ive seen frogs last soley on micro fauna for periods of time but personally nothing long term. I dont think any practice outside of supplementing with regular feedings will take the place of vitA, and others. The mineral rich substrate idea I have been studying and perfecting in my vivs and micro fauna tubs but I havent found too much hobby related info that is Dart Frog based and tested. Id be interested in knowing about any that have pulled this off as I cant imagine it working out long term with larger frogs. I would think it would involve something like using wood collected in the wild to get a much larger variety of micro fauna to start with.

Michael


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

poison beauties said:


> BM Ive seen frogs last soley on micro fauna for periods of time but personally nothing long term. I dont think any practice outside of supplementing with regular feedings will take the place of vitA, and others. The mineral rich substrate idea I have been studying and perfecting in my vivs and micro fauna tubs but I havent found too much hobby related info that is Dart Frog based and tested. Id be interested in knowing about any that have pulled this off as I cant imagine it working out long term with larger frogs. I would think it would involve something like using wood collected in the wild to get a much larger variety of micro fauna to start with.
> 
> Michael


I would assume in an enclosure consisting of microfuana only(as feed), woodlice would assume the stape component in the diet? I would disagree that the way to have persisting microfuana would be through wild collection of wood etc. I think that is begging for pathogens, etc to take the frog's lives. I think, a very rich soil, and springs, and woodlice may be viable, but for a short time. There would have to be supplemental feedings, otherwise the soil alone bears the weight of providing needed minerals and vitamins. 

JBear


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

JBear collecting wild wood for the added micro fauna is how many in the hobby have done it for years. Well before the boards were around to share better practices. I do agree on the soil content which Ive worked on but isos arent exactly the best feeder especially for nutirent intake, I would also assume that any breeding pair of frogs would wipe the population out pretty quickly since this is based on a self sustained long term project. Im not sure what you would use for supplemental feedings thats not FF or other insects. Its just not a practical thing to do in my opinion. There are other hobby;s if the regular requirments of this one dont fit ones allowance or life style.


Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> BM Ive seen frogs last soley on micro fauna for periods of time but personally nothing long term. I dont think any practice outside of supplementing with regular feedings will take the place of vitA, and others. The mineral rich substrate idea I have been studying and perfecting in my vivs and micro fauna tubs but I havent found too much hobby related info that is Dart Frog based and tested. Id be interested in knowing about any that have pulled this off as I cant imagine it working out long term with larger frogs. I would think it would involve something like using wood collected in the wild to get a much larger variety of micro fauna to start with.
> 
> Michael


I could have sworn someone posted about some tanks with clay backgrounds that have been going years without outside feeding.

I honestly want to say Ed was the poster, but being that it's been awhile since I read the post, and don't have a link to it handy, I can't really say with any certainty


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## phyllo (Jul 21, 2011)

Could I use pill bugs?


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## phyllo (Jul 21, 2011)

Or 



 ?


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

varanoid said:


> If you need something that does eat veggies look into tortoises\iguanas\uromastyx etc.


I would not recommend an iguana, they are NOT good pets, plus most people can't provide the space/heat/humidity needed to properly care for them and males can be extremely moody. I had one for 11 years and I loved him but I'd NEVER get another.

If you want a vegetarian, get a small tortoise or a crested gecko.


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## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

Why not... a pet rock! Those are always fun. I got a pair for my birthday and by the end of the summer had 7 little buggers. I feed mine carrots and sometimes lettuce if they're looking chubby. (they don't move much)

But seriously, fruit flies or bust.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I could have sworn someone posted about some tanks with clay backgrounds that have been going years without outside feeding.
> 
> I honestly want to say Ed was the poster, but being that it's been awhile since I read the post, and don't have a link to it handy, I can't really say with any certainty


Absolutely,there are many vivs established that make it years and years and Ive had clay based medias for micro fauna tubs go months with being fed and the will make it years. Calcium is one of the few needed nutrients that we can cover with this practice but I dont think that reseeding or outside supplemental feeding with FF was avoided for any length of time that would cause anyone to recommend this practice to anyone to take on especially new hobbyists with certain ground rules. Its really just a case of someones' needs not refelecting whats best for the frogs. It happens, hell I had to get rid of my hot collection for due to the family growing and saftey issues. Has the OP considered Tortises, Bearded Dragons or even snakes? all of those are an easy way to avoid live bug feeding if your set on the herp hobby.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Absolutely,there are many vivs established that make it years and years and Ive had clay based medias for micro fauna tubs go months with being fed and the will make it years. Calcium is one of the few needed nutrients that we can cover with this practice but I dont think that reseeding or outside supplemental feeding with FF was avoided for any length of time that would cause anyone to recommend this practice to anyone to take on especially new hobbyists with certain ground rules. Its really just a case of someones' needs not refelecting whats best for the frogs. It happens, hell I had to get rid of my hot collection for due to the family growing and saftey issues. Has the OP considered Tortises, Bearded Dragons or even snakes? all of those are an easy way to avoid live bug feeding if your set on the herp hobby.
> 
> Michael


1) I didn't recommend anything, nor did I suggest anyone should try it. 

2) The post I am thinking about, if I remember correctly, stressed the fact that there was no outside feeding


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Wasn't blaming you for pushing any practices. Just making it clear if anyone has to go this far just to be able to keep a few darts its likely the frogs will suffer in one way or another.
As for thread on your mind I may remember a bit of it but Im not sure it was done on any long term project. I would also think that the lack of certain supplements I would think that once the frogs got to the point of breeding you would see an issue arise with sls, sts and other factors from lack of supplementation.

Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I could have sworn someone posted about some tanks with clay backgrounds that have been going years without outside feeding.
> 
> I honestly want to say Ed was the poster, but being that it's been awhile since I read the post, and don't have a link to it handy, I can't really say with any certainty


There have been several different methods and trials but none of the ones that I am aware of are truley closed systems. The reason is because, there has to be some method of vitamin D3 accumulation for the frogs. Mark Budde was doing some trials to see how far he could push it, there was also Ben Eiben's compostarium. 

Brent Brock only adds fruit flies to some of his tanks when he can't readily see them in there anymore... I've been feeding some frogs once a week for more than a year as a trial for some frogs as well..... 

Ed


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> I would not recommend an iguana, they are NOT good pets, plus most people can't provide the space/heat/humidity needed to properly care for them and males can be extremely moody. I had one for 11 years and I loved him but I'd NEVER get another.
> 
> If you want a vegetarian, get a small tortoise or a crested gecko.


I wouldn't recommend a uromastyx either, they are not cheap to set up and require HUGE cages [4'x2'x2' for small species 8'x4'x3' for large species] and are purely observation lizards and not good for handling what...so...ever...


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

BethInAK said:


> phyllo, fruitflies aren't really insects, just pests.




ummm....ya.....sure...


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> There have been several different methods and trials but none of the ones that I am aware of are truley closed systems. The reason is because, there has to be some method of vitamin D3 accumulation for the frogs. Mark Budde was doing some trials to see how far he could push it, there was also Ben Eiben's compostarium.
> 
> Brent Brock only adds fruit flies to some of his tanks when he can't readily see them in there anymore... I've been feeding some frogs once a week for more than a year as a trial for some frogs as well.....
> 
> Ed



though I imagine it's too much of a hassle for the general hobbyist, especially if feeding out ff is the issue, couldn't the d3 issue be dealt with using uv lighting?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

UVB lighting would not work to the needed amounts under normal viv conditions. Glass lids, as well as frogs hiding under plants. Plus your not getting the effects when the lights are help as little as 12'' from any herp.

Im not sure about a natural way to cover this issue without regular supplementing. VitA deficiency's are going to be an issue as well over time.

Michael


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

boabab95 said:


> I wouldn't recommend a uromastyx either, they are not cheap to set up and require HUGE cages [4'x2'x2' for small species 8'x4'x3' for large species] and are purely observation lizards and not good for handling what...so...ever...


Hey Jeremy, not arguing with you here, but I disagree on the "purely observation" thing. I've had hardwickii, malinensis, and geyri, all of them would have been dog-tame if I had taken the time to handle them a bit more. Yeah, WC can be a bit skittish, but they are an incredibly intelligent genus, and really appreciate the warmth of a human hand. I HAVE heard Egyptians can be dangerous monsters, but gentle when ample time is spent working with them.

I will second the expensive to setup thing, though. However, Uros are a very "clean" reptile, and the cost of keeping them hot year-round, diet,UV, tank size etc. is more than worth it. A helluva a lot more rewarding than Beardies or Iguanas and their big stinky shits,  As long as someone has a grasp of the basic Uro husbandry principles, I couldn't recommend them more. JVK


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> UVB lighting would not work to the needed amounts under normal viv conditions. Glass lids, as well as frogs hiding under plants. Plus your not getting the effects when the lights are help as little as 12'' from any herp.
> 
> Im not sure about a natural way to cover this issue without regular supplementing. VitA deficiency's are going to be an issue as well over time.
> 
> Michael


I understand the various constructional limitations to UVB, hence me mentioning the hassle involved, but I am unsure why it would be assumed that they wouldn't get enough if it was properly provided


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Would 'someone' let you culture ffs if you kept their containers in a large tub with a lid?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> though I imagine it's too much of a hassle for the general hobbyist, especially if feeding out ff is the issue, couldn't the d3 issue be dealt with using uv lighting?


The D3 issue can be dealt with via UVB.. the issue then comes down to enclosure set up as you need a method of getting the UVB to the frogs as other than starphire or solacryl (which has to be replaced after a number of years due to diminishing transmission over time) other materials used for lids diminishes the UVB transmission. After that you need to be able to set up calling perches that allow the frogs to call from sites that are shielded from UVB. If those can be accomedated then the frogs will behaviorally regulate UVB exposure to ensure sufficient D3 exposure. 

If UVB is provided, then one still has to give the frogs access to calcium for uptake which means that most of the substrates used in the hobby are not suitable for the frogs. A calcium containing clay substrate is going to be the best choice at this point, and it should have some structure that encourages the invertebrate fauna to pass through it. Some bare clay spots are also going to be required for the frogs to actively uptake calcium through the skin.

Even if this is accomedated, then the frogs still need access to the proper carotenoids for conversion to vitamin A and a method to transfer them to the frogs. The variety of invertebrates for food in typical enclosures is very small and this affects the variety and uptake of carotenoids. 

Some commments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> UVB lighting would not work to the needed amounts under normal viv conditions. Glass lids, as well as frogs hiding under plants. Plus your not getting the effects when the lights are help as little as 12'' from any herp.
> 
> Im not sure about a natural way to cover this issue without regular supplementing. VitA deficiency's are going to be an issue as well over time.
> 
> Michael


Hi Michael,

There isn't any reason to believe that the frogs won't behaviorally regulate thier UVB exposure. This can be seen to some extent by thier choices for calling perches. There is also good data that shade or under canopy dwelling herps require less exposure to UVB to convert provitamin D3 to D3. 

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I understand the various constructional limitations to UVB, hence me mentioning the hassle involved, but I am unsure why it would be assumed that they wouldn't get enough if it was properly provided





Ed said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> There isn't any reason to believe that the frogs won't behaviorally regulate thier UVB exposure. This can be seen to some extent by thier choices for calling perches. There is also good data that shade or under canopy dwelling herps require less exposure to UVB to convert provitamin D3 to D3.
> 
> Ed



I understand both of these points and while Ive kept herps that do require high amounts of ubv I do not see how this would work for dart frogs. For them to recieve the needed ubv the lights would have to be close enough to the top of the viv that its going to over heat it and based on the lights requirements taller verts will not work as the average range of the beneficial rays are around 6-12''. Not to mention you will need a lid that allows uvb rays to penetrate. I dont doubt the frogs being able to regulate as well as this would be good for the plants but its just another risk that if you have to go this far it may not be worth it.

Michael


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> I would not recommend an iguana, they are NOT good pets, plus most people can't provide the space/heat/humidity needed to properly care for them and males can be extremely moody. I had one for 11 years and I loved him but I'd NEVER get another.
> 
> If you want a vegetarian, get a small tortoise or a crested gecko.


I disagree. I had an iguana named Spike when I was a kid he lived 10 years he was awesome. The worst part was cleaning out his enclosure but other than that he was fun. He was bigger than our cats and was allowed free roam in the house where we had several fake trees that he loved to hang out in.

As for bugs, my girl hates them but the cuteness of the frogs overrides that factor. My advice is to show the frogs to this "someone" in person, it might do the trick.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> I understand both of these points and while Ive kept herps that do require high amounts of ubv I do not see how this would work for dart frogs. For them to recieve the needed ubv the lights would have to be close enough to the top of the viv that its going to over heat it and based on the lights requirements taller verts will not work as the average range of the beneficial rays are around 6-12''. Not to mention you will need a lid that allows uvb rays to penetrate. I dont doubt the frogs being able to regulate as well as this would be good for the plants but its just another risk that if you have to go this far it may not be worth it.
> 
> Michael


as I said, setting up a system, while maintaining temps and humidity, would be a complete PIA. More just curious on what the limitations and issues are here


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> I understand both of these points and while Ive kept herps that do require high amounts of ubv I do not see how this would work for dart frogs. For them to recieve the needed ubv the lights would have to be close enough to the top of the viv that its going to over heat it and based on the lights requirements taller verts will not work as the average range of the beneficial rays are around 6-12''. Not to mention you will need a lid that allows uvb rays to penetrate. I dont doubt the frogs being able to regulate as well as this would be good for the plants but its just another risk that if you have to go this far it may not be worth it.
> 
> Michael


 
Most of the recommendations presented in the hobby is in relation to species that are that routinely bask directly in the sun for significant periods of time. These species require a higher intensity and/or length of exposure to convert sufficient provitamin D to D3 than do shade or under the canopy species. Shade dwelling species can convert more provitamin D to previtamin D and then to D3 with a significantly lower intensity exposure (less than 50% in some studied lizards) (and crepuscular species convert even more on less exposure). The lower intensity threshold means that not only do they require a lower intensity exposure to the bulb, the bulb can be further from the animals to achieve the same D3 production and they also require a shorter exposure time to meet their metabolic needs. 

As behavioral regulation of D3 levels is likely, all that is needed is open areas that allow for exposure and if distance is a concern then a slope or even a easily climbed slanted piece of wood is all that is required (one could even plant the piece of wood). It isn't that difficult if one takes the time to plan it out. 

I don't see how temperature is that big of a issue given that they aren't going to be any hotter than the similar lights used by the hobby just for the plants (and I doubt anyone is recommeding halogen bulbs). As I noted in a seperate post above, UVB transmission is an issue depending on the type of lid used. 

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Many of us already use uvb bulbs and I know you didnt mean anything beyong flourescents or even LED which havent proven out in my opinion but according to the bulbs we will need to have them much closer than whats needed to keep the plants thriving. This will cause heat build up. If you know how to make it all work Im all ears. BM has made it a point we are only working out the possiblilties and whether its even worth it for the hobby. All I know is that UBV bulbs have a limited distance of use so in either case a bulb that isnt a HPS or MH isnt going to handle the needs for a vert viv over 18'' high.

Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> isnt going to handle the needs for a vert viv over 18'' high.
> 
> Michael


 
What I was getting at above.. I suggest reviewing the data on here... UV Lighting for Reptiles: A new problem with high UVB output fluorescent compact lamps and tubes? 

The exposure to shade dwelling animals is much much less than that of animals living in the sun. This is why I pointed out that the data for heliophilic animals can't be readily used here.. 

to quote from the site using the UV gradients


> Reptiles which live in the shade, (in rainforest, for example) may never expose themselves to as much as this; the UV Index in rainforest shade may be less than 1.0 even at mid-day.


 if you look at thier tests, UVB is still available to the animals even at 20 inches, it still isn't at zero and is still above a 1 so there is good evidence that it would still be available for several more inches... and this is even before we discuss distance shortened by false bottoms, tiers in which the frogs could climb to behaviorally attain UVB exposure.... People have to get away from the idea that the entire enclosure has to be within the recommended distance from the bulb as exposure is known to be modified behaviorally. The animals just have to be able to modify thier exposure as they need and not be limited by how we want them to be visible... On an anecdotal basis, there are reports of calcium insufficiency in dendrobatids housed in very tall viviaria which resolved with the addition of UVB producing flourescent fixtures as the only husbandry change.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Very good info, Not that said the exposure does lessen with distance from the lights. I know many have had to push their lights further away from the vivs since the heat buildup in an issue. What bulbs would people use for the best results? I dont see it. I'd guess that using the 10.0's is the best chence to get uvb to the bottom of a tall viv and since you say they can still get beneficial exposure in the shade wouldnt anything lesser put frogs at a loss in a viv over 24'' as I doubt the 1.0 would be what they get.

Michael


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

jkooiman said:


> Hey Jeremy, not arguing with you here, but I disagree on the "purely observation" thing. I've had hardwickii, malinensis, and geyri, all of them would have been dog-tame if I had taken the time to handle them a bit more. Yeah, WC can be a bit skittish, but they are an incredibly intelligent genus, and really appreciate the warmth of a human hand. I HAVE heard Egyptians can be dangerous monsters, but gentle when ample time is spent working with them.
> 
> I will second the expensive to setup thing, though. However, Uros are a very "clean" reptile, and the cost of keeping them hot year-round, diet,UV, tank size etc. is more than worth it. A helluva a lot more rewarding than Beardies or Iguanas and their big stinky shits,  As long as someone has a grasp of the basic Uro husbandry principles, I couldn't recommend them more. JVK



not arguing either, but they arent exactly trainable, they just associate you with food...and the warmth of the hand is actually quite cold for them...

Here's some more info on the topic, just so this doesnt turn into a huge fight  feel free to pm me, so we don't hijack this too much...

Handing


on the other hand, where the hell did you get Hardwickii??? know where to get thomasii?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Very good info, Not that said the exposure does lessen with distance from the lights. I know many have had to push their lights further away from the vivs since the heat buildup in an issue. What bulbs would people use for the best results? I dont see it. I'd guess that using the 10.0's is the best chence to get uvb to the bottom of a tall viv and since you say they can still get beneficial exposure in the shade wouldnt anything lesser put frogs at a loss in a viv over 24'' as I doubt the 1.0 would be what they get.
> 
> Michael


Yes, exposure does decrease with distance (and I have been clear on this from the start) but the required intensity to convert provitamin D3 also changes significantly when dealing with shade dwelling or crepuscular animals. They are able to convert provitamin D3 at much much lower intensities and for much much less lengths of time. Virtually all of the recommendations on distance required for conversion are based on entirely on heliothermic lizards which spend large periods of time in the sun (iguanas, chelonians, sceloperus ssp..) so when dealing with shade dwellers or crepuscular species, you have to disregard all of the previous recommedations as they can meet thier needs at much much lower numbers... 

I'm not sure why you are hung up on the distance from the light since unless you deliberately deny the frogs the ability to move upwards in the tank, they can behaviorally adjust thier exposure even in taller tanks by simply climbing up particularly if you provide some easy to climb areas... 

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Not hung up on it Ed, I just think that with the fact that the lights are not kept right on the vivs to control the over heating issues so the distance is an issue as well as what type of light as the intesity's are different. With an average of 6-12'' that a flo bulb pushed uvb out its just not practical for me to think it could take the place of the need for supplements but who knows. You have the writes and i will take your word for it.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> I don't see how temperature is that big of a issue given that they aren't going to be any hotter than the similar lights used by the hobby just for the plants (and I doubt anyone is recommeding halogen bulbs). As I noted in a seperate post above, UVB transmission is an issue depending on the type of lid used.
> 
> Ed


I was under the impression that the UVB wouldn't travel through glass, or most commonly available plastics. And that the Halogen "spot light" bulbs were the only means of effective generation

PS but admittedly, I have not first hand knowledge of them


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I was under the impression that the UVB wouldn't travel through glass, or most commonly available plastics. And that the Halogen "spot light" bulbs were the only means of effective generation
> 
> PS but admittedly, I have not first hand knowledge of them


UVB will pass through low iron glass like Starphire brand glass so you can use a glass top that will allow UVB to pass through it or use solacryl plastics. Some of the other plastics that are claimed to allow UVB penetrations (like some of the plexiglass) actually screen most if not all from passing through it. 

Some of the halogens do put out UVB for a longer distance but the recommendations for distance and placement of those (as well as other bulbs) is for species that bask for significant portions of the day. Those species need a much higher intensity and exposure to the bulbs to be able to synthesize vitamin D3 which is why you shouldn't use those recommendations for the frogs. As an example in the web site I linked to above, some of the UVB flourescents emit levels of UVB at 20 inches that are higher than that measured at midday in the shade under the forest canopy. 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> UVB will pass through low iron glass like Starphire brand glass so you can use a glass top that will allow UVB to pass through it or use solacryl plastics. Some of the other plastics that are claimed to allow UVB penetrations (like some of the plexiglass) actually screen most if not all from passing through it.
> 
> Some of the halogens do put out UVB for a longer distance but the recommendations for distance and placement of those (as well as other bulbs) is for species that bask for significant portions of the day. Those species need a much higher intensity and exposure to the bulbs to be able to synthesize vitamin D3 which is why you shouldn't use those recommendations for the frogs. As an example in the web site I linked to above, some of the UVB flourescents emit levels of UVB at 20 inches that are higher than that measured at midday in the shade under the forest canopy.
> 
> Ed



Yeah I read that. Was just explaining why i thought it would be a PIA to maintain and set-up


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## Bowser (Jul 4, 2011)

Might i suggest a crested gecko or gargoyle gecko?  i've heard of alot of people giving them all of the nutrition they need on a powder mixed with water called repashy. cresteds come in awesome colors too! You're going to have to do alot more research but that's probably your best bet.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Bowser said:


> Might i suggest a crested gecko or gargoyle gecko?  i've heard of alot of people giving them all of the nutrition they need on a powder mixed with water called repashy. cresteds come in awesome colors too! You're going to have to do alot more research but that's probably your best bet.


wouldn't repashy be a source of vitamins and minerals, with rather limited caloric content?

I would imagine that would be like someone trying to live off of multivitamins, without recognizing they need, fats, proteins, and carbohydrates to make the body function


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

from the website:


> Meal Replacement Powder (MRP) for all Fruit-Eating Geckos, such as Rhacodactylus, Phelsuma and Gekko. Also a great supplement for other species such as Anoles, Skinks, Chameleons and Iguanids.
> 
> 
> 
> INFORMATION: No further supplementation required for Fruit-Eating Geckos when feeding MRP. However, if you choose to feed alternately with insects, we recommend gutloading with Repashy’s SuperLoad and dusting with Repashy’s Calcium Plus every time insects are used. Refrigeration will extend product life.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> wouldn't repashy be a source of vitamins and minerals, with rather limited caloric content?
> 
> I would imagine that would be like someone trying to live off of multivitamins, without recognizing they need, fats, proteins, and carbohydrates to make the body function


The product he is talking about is a complete food mix, not the Calcium Plus used to dust bugs.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Tony said:


> The product he is talking about is a complete food mix, not the Calcium Plus used to dust bugs.


ahh, that makes more sense


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