# Skinny frogs, help needed



## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

Answer: two Dendrobates Tinctorius Yellow back F1’s I’ve had them six or so months having gotten them back in August and I bought them from Josh’s frogs they were shipped to me.

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

Answer: day temperatures stay consistently around 68 to 70 night temps are
around 66 to 64 I use vivarium thermometers two to make sure both sides of the tank etc are the correct temperature and there’s no difference/both are accurate. I also use another thermostat in the room to keep up with the room temp as well. Both are consistent in temperature.

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

Answer:
Finnex Planted+ 24/7 LED KLC Aquarium LED Light, Controllable Full Spectrum Fish Tank Light. Wattage is 17 and it does seem to add a tiny bit of heat to the Viv but not enough to cause any harm I monitor the temperature closely and it has never caused any issues.

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

Answer: I don’t have anything to measure humidity with but an educated guess would be 70% to 80% if not 90% and I have a little bowl of water just incase it’s not enough. I’m using well water, no chemicals no odd metals/nothing harmful. For misting I use a mistking I did have it set up to mist in the mornings and evenings but found it was too much so I turn it on myself once or twice a day for a few seconds that can vary between 15s to 45s it depends on how quickly things dry up and how the viv acts and the frogs whether or not I mist again.

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

Answer: I have the H18x L24x W24 exoterra vivarium. I have the standard ventilated lid on it with fiberglass squares cut to slide into place on top over the metal mesh. I only have two in place as that allows plenty of ventilation and keeps the humidity just right. There are four vents on top all measuring at L10 W8 front vent at the soil level of the tank I’ve blocked off due to fruit flies escaping through it, I’ve seen no issues to make me believe it needs to be removed. I also have a pvc pipe with a screw in lid to suck out water should the water level ever become too high in the drainage layer. I used aquarium safe glue to set it in place and never leave it open so the frogs can’t get in it.

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

Answer: melaganster wingless fruit flies from Josh’s frogs originally but I’ve made my own cultures off the ones I bought from them. For supplements I’m using repashycal calcium plus. I’ve used it ever since I got the frogs and am due to order some more but they’ve yet to restock (I buy from Josh’s frogs) I store it in the fridge as instructed.

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

Answer: nothing else has been in the viv and it’s only been the frogs when I did add them into the viv.

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

Answer: when I turn on the misting system if they are out in the open and the water hits them (one in particular) they begin to scratch their backs and flip out like it’s acid rain. But I believe it’s due to panic because a few moments later they will come out and enjoy the mist and water droplets. They also don’t eat a ton, I can put flys in and they will eat a few and then leave them most of the flies die. I end up feeding every three or four days because they eat one day and then I don’t see them until all the flies have died or hopefully been picked off but I never see them eating the flies after I first put them in and they’re dusted.

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

Answer: I handled them about three or four months ago to move them to the viv from the quarantine tub and I used powder-less gloves to do so. I’ve used no cleaners, no paints or perfumes near the viv and no bug sprays.

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.

Answer: I’m not sure how many photos I can upload but I will do as many as possible.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

These look very skinny, if not emaciated. I suspect that even if you find out what the problem is, the skinnier one is likely to not make it. Once they are in the stage where you start to see the ribs on their back the chances of them bouncing back become pretty slim (in my experience so far).

I would get some fecals done to check for parasites and treat accordingly as I suspect that this is the most likely issue. In the meantime see if you can get them to eat some fruit fly larvae as these contain some more fat and could help your frogs to stabilise or improve their weight. I would also check your well water. The reaction from the frogs you describe does seem to signal that something is wrong with that water. Try to get your hands on some RO water if you can.

It's not easy to estimate how big these are, but have you tried giving them some hydei flies? Perhaps the chunkier size and different motion of those could convince them to eat a bit more.

But the most important things (I think) are to get the fecals done and to make absolutely sure that there is nothing in their water that is harming them.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Zane said:


> I’m using well water, no chemicals no odd metals/nothing harmful.


One thing that is a problem with using any water other than RO (or equivalent: RODI, steam distilled) is that it presents another variable to be considered in troubleshooting odd problems like the one at hand.

Agricultural or industrial groundwater contaminants that aren't on the EPA's limits list may or may not pose issues for captive amphibians, so just because the EPA says water is safe for human consumption does not entail that it is safe for frog use. Organizations with a higher bar for concern (like the Environmental Working Group) may have some data on their website -- simply searching the web for 'location' + 'water quality' may give some food for thought.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

The variable you should look at is your water. Change to RO or distilled for your misting system.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

I hope they make it. I would follow the advice others provided. Additionally if you have excess water in the drainage layer it may be a good idea to siphon that out so you can get that water out of the equation then do a misting with the RO/distilled water.

Ricky


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## hansgruber7 (Mar 23, 2020)

I think your water is the most likely problem. You need to switch to RO water if you can. I would also throw a banana in there. The fruit flies will lay larvae on there and they can fatten up with that.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

wow...zero glass top? am I seeing that correctly?


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Philsuma said:


> wow...zero glass top? am I seeing that correctly?


I didn't even notice - that is something that should be addressed as well.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Zane said:


> I have the standard ventilated lid on it with fiberglass squares cut to slide into place on top over the metal mesh. I only have two in place as that allows plenty of ventilation and keeps the humidity just right. There are four vents on top all measuring at L10 W8 front vent at the soil level of the tank I’ve blocked off due to fruit flies escaping through it, I’ve seen no issues to make me believe it needs to be removed.


It looks like there is plexi over the front screens, and the front vent is blocked off. Back screens are open.


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## SeaAnemone (12 mo ago)

If you want to test your well water your state should have a list of approved labs to run the tests. You said your well water didn’t have any metals so I’m not sure if that means you test it annually or not. If you do already, then sorry for providing redundant information about testing. I also don’t think the standard water test in my state looks at things like PFAS, for example, and since those are bad for humans I can’t imagine they’re anything other than bad for amphibians, so as others have alluded to, it might be worth looking into which sorts of agricultural pollutants are “allowed” in well water that passes annual testing.

You can get a TDS meter to check for total dissolved solids in your water. I have well water and its fine for human consumption per my state tests but it’s nowhere near 0 TDS which is what you’d want for a vivarium.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

just buy gallon jugs of grocery store spring water. Your problem is nutirent related IMO. Food - frequency and correct supplements.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

SeaAnemone said:


> If you want to test your well water your state should have a list of approved labs to run the tests. You said your well water didn’t have any metals so I’m not sure if that means you test it annually or not. If you do already, then sorry for providing redundant information about testing. I also don’t think the standard water test in my state looks at things like PFAS, for example, and since those are bad for humans I can’t imagine they’re anything other than bad for amphibians, so as others have alluded to, it might be worth looking into which sorts of agricultural pollutants are “allowed” in well that passes annual testing.
> Ran
> You can get a TDS meter to check for total dissolved solids in your water. I have well water and its fine for human consumption per my state tests but it’s nowhere near 0 TDS which is what you’d want for a vivarium.


We’ve had it tested multiple times and tds is 
naturally close to 0 it’s really good clean water. I use it for all my aquatic animals/fish shrimp etc but due to how the frogs react sometimes I’m going to look into the RO option.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Worth asking: the water that feeds the misting system is at room temperature, right?



Zane said:


> I use it for all my aquatic animals/fish shrimp etc


I would still recommend using RO for the frogs (you're not testing for the sorts of things the EWG tests for, I'm certain, and those things might be playing a role), but the fact that you've been using the water successfully with other relevantly similar animals suggests that your frogs do need a vet consultation. 

After that, it may be worth adding some climbing opportunities to the viv -- not that this is directly causing your frogs' situation, but there's a *lot* of empty space that they could be climbing around on and building up muscles.


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

Can any of you name a more sensitive animal than an amphibian?

Ricky


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## SeaAnemone (12 mo ago)

Zane said:


> We’ve had it tested multiple times and tds is
> naturally close to 0 it’s really good clean water. I use it for all my aquatic animals/fish shrimp etc but due to how the frogs react sometimes I’m going to look into the RO option.


Gotcha. Like I said in my original post I couldn’t tell from what you’d said if you had it tested regularly or not. 🙂

Good luck with your frogs! Have they ever been tested for parasites?


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## Anda (Jan 18, 2020)

Imatreewaterme said:


> Can any of you name a more sensitive animal than an amphibian?
> 
> Ricky


Amphibians have existed for more than 300 million years through violent climatic changes. If anything they are highly adaptive. Many Pdf's are highly specialised and any specialised animal, amphibian or otherwise, is sensitive to "other than" their defined ideal conditions. As such I would argue that a Javanese rhino is much more sensitive than for example _D. auratus. _


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## SeaAnemone (12 mo ago)

To be fair, it’s one things for a group of animals (amphibians) to have millions of years over which to evolve, during which many individual species went extinct, and quite another for an individual frog to have to deal with potential anthropogenic pollutants or parasite loads while confined to a glass box. 


As for rhinos, so far mammals as a group have existed for at least 185 million years (How the earliest mammals thrived alongside dinosaurs) and depending on how you define and interpret paleontological findings may have existed for many more millions of years before that. Ungulates have been around for at least 50 million years. Numerous amphibian and mammalian (including undulates specifically) have gone/been driven to extinction over the course of time.


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## Anda (Jan 18, 2020)

SeaAnemone said:


> To be fair, it’s one things for a group of animals (amphibians) to have millions of years over which to evolve, during which many individual species went extinct, and quite another for an individual frog to have to deal with potential anthropogenic pollutants or parasite loads while confined to a glass box.


Yes agreed, but if they were extremely sensitive there would not exist tens of thousands of them in captivity. Like the OP says, most other aquatic/amphibious animals would also succumb to sufficiently high levels of any contaminant or parasite.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

SeaAnemone said:


> Gotcha. Like I said in my original post I couldn’t tell from what you’d said if you had it tested regularly or not. 🙂
> 
> Good luck with your frogs! Have they ever been tested for parasites?


They have not, I called some local vets to see about getting it done but it’s going to be in the $300+ range and I’m a student so it’s going to take some time to set aside the money to take them. They require an exam before they’ll do anything/prescribe or do any fecal sample tests.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Zane said:


> For supplements I’m using repashycal calcium plus.


Can you show us a photo of the supplement jar? I can't tell if you're using Rep-Cal Calcium Plus or Repashy Calcium plus. Rep-Cal is NOT short for Repashycal. To the best of my knowledge, there is no, "Repashycal." The way you have it written leaves me wondering if that may be a contributing factor.

Rep-Cal is not a suitable supplement for dart frogs, so if you have been using it under the mistaken impression that it was a Repashy product, that could be part of this problem. 

I also think parasites and water quality may be part of the issue, but you'll have to visit your vet for fecals. In my area, vets typically charge $60-85 for the exotic pet exam, and $18-35 for fecal testing, which they will typically do as a single test for a cohabiting group of frogs. If the vets you've been calling are charging $300+ just for a visit and fecals, I'd suggest calling around some more, or seeking a veterinary school that has a patient clinic or who is willing run fecals.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Woodswalker said:


> Can you show us a photo of the supplement jar? I can't tell if you're using Rep-Cal Calcium Plus or Repashy Calcium plus. Rep-Cal is NOT short for Repashycal. To the best of my knowledge, there is no, "Repashycal." The way you have it written leaves me wondering if that may be a contributing factor.
> 
> Rep-Cal is not a suitable supplement for dart frogs, so if you have been using it under the mistaken impression that it was a Repashy product, that could be part of this problem.
> 
> I also think parasites and water quality may be part of the issue, but you'll have to visit your vet for fecals. In my area, vets typically charge $60-85 for the exotic pet exam, and $18-35 for fecal testing, which they will typically do as a single test for a cohabiting group of frogs. If the vets you've been calling are charging $300+ just for a visit and fecals, I'd suggest calling around some more, or seeking a veterinary school that has a patient clinic or who is willing run fecals.


It is repashy calcium plus I am 100% sure I was advised early on that repashy-cal does not work for dart frogs.
I have called many local vets and it’s all the same, all the trusted vets are charging the same. It is what it is at this point for the prices. I’m doing the best I can with what I have. 
I appreciate everyone’s help!


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## ArtTeacherFrogger (12 mo ago)

I would strongly suggest you start supplementing with Repashy Vit. A once per week, as that will help their eyesight and STS if present. I also had a terribly emaciated frog (look up the thread, called “This Old Chestnut”) and I have been able to bring it around just with good supplementation and good husbandry. You cannot rule out parasites until you get tested. Ask around at your college, most institutions have a parasitologist who will do it for cheap or free.


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## Debster13 (10 mo ago)

Zane said:


> It is repashy calcium plus I am 100% sure I was advised early on that repashy-cal does not work for dart frogs.
> I have called many local vets and it’s all the same, all the trusted vets are charging the same. It is what it is at this point for the prices. I’m doing the best I can with what I have.
> I appreciate everyone’s help!


How are your frogs doing? I saw your post and was worried for them. They are so skinny. It sounds like you care for them a lot. I know the cost of vets have risen so much
Believe me I know!


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Debster13 said:


> How are your frogs doing? I saw your post and was worried for them. They are so skinny. It sounds like you care for them a lot. I know the cost of vets have risen so much
> Believe me I know!


They are both still hanging in there and acting normal at least normal for them. Both are still very skinny but they don’t seem to be worse, they also don’t seem to be any better either. But that’s to be expected since I’ve yet to figure out a vet option. I’m doing the best I can with what I’ve got, they’ve made it this long I’m hoping they can hold out a little longer.


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## Zane (Sep 7, 2021)

Just wanted to hop on and thank everyone for their help! I was unable to get the frogs to the vet but I did work on the water and stopped misting so much along with getting the bigger flies. Which turned out to be the real issue! Both frogs are doing much better after only a few feedings of the bigger flies they’re chunking up really nicely! They’re still on the thin side but much much better than they were! Again thank you all for the advice and help! (I’ve attached a photo of each frog)


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