# Out on a limb (a new setup)



## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

After seeing so many pictures like this:




























I've started thinking how you would put together some sort of vivarium that mimicked this sort of arboreal habitat. Growing orchids in pots is fine, but I really like to see their natural growth forms on trees and the mosses, lichens, etc. that they're nestled in with as well. So, today I did a little collecting to take the first few steps toward it actually happening. Below are a few shots of the initial branch in a 55 gal (excuse the hard water film):



















My plan would be to get some moss growing pretty profusely on the branch(es), then add a brom or two, some type of epiphytic orchid (probably in the Pleurothallid alliance) and some type of epiphytic fern (Lemmaphyllum microphyllum?). As for keeping the wood moist, I'm wondering if something could be done by feeding a line of air hose (the kind for air pumps in aquariums) with a small hole in it every few inches along the branch, hopefully hidden. It would be connected to a small pump sitting in a water reservoir outside the tank, and on a timer. Every few hours or so it would come on and for a few minutes saturate the limb and moss. 

Any thoughts or comments on going forward with something like this?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I think its a good idea, and have been toying with the idea of more horizontal branches running across my tanks. I haven't done it yet, as I don't have the wood I want for it, but I have been thinking about it. Are you just going to silicone both ends? I am not sure you would even need to have that line to saturate the branch, misting should do just fine. Actually I think misting would probably be better, as the orchids, broms, and ferns would probably prefer to dry off a little between waterings rather then being saturated all the time.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Also, what kind of wood is that and where did you get it?


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

I think Scott has some tanks with branches attached to the side... correct me if I am wrong Scott.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

Right now the branches are sitting in there with just a bit of tension--I was planning on a little Great Stuff on each end to help secure it a bit more, as well as the joint between the large branch and smaller one to attach it more securely.

I think you're right about that water line: the more I think about it the more I think it would just cause rot.

One thing I'll need to deal with is the bottom of the tank. If I put any sort of substrate material in the bottom, it will break the entire illusion of a suspended branch and just end up looking like one laying on the forest floor (which defeats the whole purpose of the setup). I was thinking of just a shallow water level on the bottom (maybe 1/4") to help with humidity, but not so much that it would jeopardize any frogs I might eventually put in there.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

You could always build an extension to go over the tank and suspend the wood in the extension. Will make for a taller terrarium, though I think it will be the easiest way of creating the effect you want.

Mike P.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

*Also, what kind of wood is that and where did you get it?*

Some type of fir or pine (I'm thinking Ponderosa). It's pretty soft, which means it's not the best. However, it also means that it will wick up water and stay pretty moist.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

> that it will wick up water


And get pretty heavy. I bet it will look sweet when finished though.


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Yeah, if you filled in the bottm with a bunch of substrate it would take away from what you are trying to do. You could always do this idea in another taller tank? That way you could have nice bottom and even add a couple more branches. If you stay with this tank you could go with some shallow water. You could also add a small layer or rocks (I just don't like empty glass) and some marginal plants (java moss, java fern, anubias, lilaeopsis brasiliensis, Cryptocoryne sps, and so on). That way there would still be something there, and it would help any frogs escape if they fall into the water.

I have branches in tanks that are just handed misted and they have moss, broms, and ferns growing on them. Misting should be just fine, and if not you can always add something later or mist more often.

After I wrote about the silicone I thought that you could also use Great stuff. You could do both side then and plant them as well. just an idea. The Great Stuff would probably be better then the silicone.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

I was wondering if it would be possible to plant the bottom, but make it look more like another branch rather than solid ground. Another option might be to build a stand and then run a strip of molding along the top of the stand, so when I set the tank on the stand, the molding hides the bottom inch or so of the tank so that when you're viewing it, you don't necessarily see a blaring bottom.

As for misting, I might also look into just doing an ultrasonic humidifier plumbed into the tank and set on a timer so it just comes on a couple times a day.

Keep the ideas coming!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yep - I do the same thing but on a much smaller scale.

s


jbeetle said:


> I think Scott has some tanks with branches attached to the side... correct me if I am wrong Scott.


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Looks nice so far! I've done the same thing, but like others on a much smaller scale. Keep us posted on your progress!
ED


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

Ed and Scott... feel like sharing soem pics  ? Also, how did each of you attach the wood to the sides of the tank?

Skylsdale, I like the idea of hiding the bottom of the tank with trim. If you could have it look like a build-in it would help create the allusion you want. You could also try making the bottom look like a larger branch of the same tree... not exactly sure how though. I guess you could use a large piece of cork (like part of a large curl), as at least it would look like bark.


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

You could use leaf litter on the bottom.... and um pretend they're just leaves from lower branches (or try for that effect).


-Tad


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## Guest (Sep 22, 2004)

That's what I was thinking, jbeetle. I could still try the trim-hiding thing and then lay another larger branch on the bottom, that way you still see the top of it and it gives the illusion of another branch in the trees, but it doesn't take up the entire bottom space of the tank and give the illusion of ground.


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

Be wary of pine, cedar and evergreen wood, there are some chemicals in the sap that can leach out into the vivarium. I inherited a awesome looking viv with some adult mints in it years back and the wood caused sores on the bottom of the frogs feet. Chuck powell might remember this scenario with more detail, I sent the last two frogs up to him, one was so bad we put it down.

Thanks
ERic


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Jon, I can send you a pic. Not as nice as skysdale's. We gotta get you over here on day to see our setups. Did you get the link to the other pics. 
Ed


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

Ed, can you post it for all to see? It would be nice to see some different 'translations' of this.


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## EverettC (Mar 9, 2004)

You could make the bottom false bottom with pvc risers, egg crate, and then use a really fine mesh to cover it. If the mesh is fine enough thewater will stay on top for a while and that might look cool. You could then cover the bottom part of the tank in black silicone to hide the false bottom.

Everett


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## Ed Martin (Mar 25, 2004)

Skylsdale, sure I'll post a link on this thread........ I can just never get any good pics of my vivs. 
Ed


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

You could use an open frame stand with a pot on the floor. The branches could extend from the pot to the bottom of the tank. Somehow use the branches to cover the legs of the stand. If done right it will give the appearance of a bottomless tank. I've done this before (For my Ig when he was small) the only snag is hiding the bottom frame of the tank. Just an idea? If you plexi'ed in the bottom and used small lights you can use the base to house the developing plant/moss and food stuff. I'd love to see pics when done. Good luck


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

Dunner, what you said sounds cool...but I'm not really grasping what you're describing (I'm a pretty visual learner). Mind explaining it a bit more?


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

skylsdale, why don't you cut a nice looking log in half and place the flat side on the bottom of the tank, which would give the appearence of a branch below your main one.

however, since you sound like you intend on making this a serious project I would rather recommend this: build a custom tank similiar in shape to the huge dispay viv on the intro page to blackjungle.com. This is really the best approach to build a nice panaramic arboreal scene. And then of coure apply your idea of securing branches to the side.

Dustin


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## jbeetle (Feb 8, 2004)

The cut log is the same thing I was suggesting about the cork bottom. With the cork you could fill in the bottom with substrate/moss/leca and easily plant on/in it. Just make some hole through it and put you plants in it. It would last longer them a log form outside, that's why I suggested in instead of some other type of wood.


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## Uncle Sal (May 7, 2004)

In using that 55gal, I definetely wouldnt us a false bottom throuhout. It would kill at least 2-5 inches of height in the tank. I would either put eggcrate in the back half, gravel in the front. 

option B
Or drill a drain whole that leads to a sump, and fill the bottom of your 55 with gravel, put hanging braches all over. Maybe some small land patches in the rear. Then dont forget to put a pump in the sump to return water to the tank, and that can be used as a waterfall.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

That cut log is something I was thinking about, and just tried with a rotting piece I collected...but it's not nearly long enough to look believeable. I started this thread on an orchid discussion board as well, since that was my original plan to use the display for. I may focus more right now on what the plants need and go from there, and if this is successful, figure out how the system can be tweaked or reproduced in a way that it more suitable for keeping frogs. I've got an 80 gal tank (48x18x21) I may mess around with as well, which might make things a bit more interesting visually as there is more depth and height to work with.


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

After viewing more pictures of rain and cloudforest, I noticed that there are a lot of times where branches, aerial roots, etc. seem to create a jumble of wood and debris, so I tried doing that a bit in the 80 gal. Let me know what you think (my only problem right now is the straightness and angle of the bottom branch, but I might saw that a bit and move it around):


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## mbrutger (May 23, 2004)

Looks great!


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Great idea, and great so far!


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

Thanks guys! I busted a branch on one of the larger pieces as I was adjusting things...so I had to remodel a bit. Here is the new configuration, which I like MUCH better:










The planting plan is to stick to a single species of orchid (but multiple specimens) and then a few various broms, ferns, and mosses and just let them take over. If I move this tank upstairs, the temps will be perfect for frogs and more tropical/temperate orchid and plants species. However, if I set it up down in the basement, the temperatures will actually be more conducive to cloud forest type plants, cooler growing orchids. At that point the possibility of frogs would be pretty nil.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

I'd go for java moss of course, prolly get the nicest effect from it, and it will probally grow fast. As for orchids, i would look at bulbophyllum, they are just my favorite, i have several species and they are great, Fascinator is my favorite flower so far, you should check em out!


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## Guest (Sep 23, 2004)

Thanks Ryan. If I go for a warmer enclosure I'll probably look at Bulbos. If I go with cool, there are a few Masdevallias and Pleurothallids I'll be looking into.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Andy's has some warmer growing Pleurothallids, and masdevilliaz, not many but some.


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Hey it's looking pretty good. The one straight branch looks out of place. I'd consider taking it out. But that's just my opinion. It doesn't have the flow of the others.

As far as my previous post, think of it this way, your viv starts at floor height and the branches climb toward the tank. the tank would be encompassing the canopy. You can use other branches to cover the frame of the stand and the tank. Just an idea. It's kind of like taking the canopy and just putting a tank somewhere in the middle. I did it twice, once it looked cool but I couldn't duplicate the same effect again. 

But good luck and keep the pics coming.
Mike


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

I know what you mean about that straight branch--it's bugging me as well. However, it has a few smaller branches that come off it that helps to break things up vertically, as well as support the branch above it. I'm thinking I might apply some knots or other branches just to make it look less straight and give the impression of more curves and bumps. hopefully, when things grow in, it won't even be that noticeable.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

i think that this has the potential for a wicked cool vivarium! 

Since you have a lot of vertical space to work with and are going for a cooler temp, you should look into some pitcher plants (nepthenes sp?) they dangle traps down from the main plant and some species are eyephites (sp?) as well.

as far as ruling out darts, understandable, but maybe you could find some other frogs suited to that climate or even lizards of some type. would be a shame to see such a beautiful environment like that with no herps to enjoy it


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I don't know how cool you're basement gets, or how cool you're vivarium in you're basement will get, with the lights and all. Gold mantellas like it cool, or maybee salamanders, they like it really cool 8) .


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

Right now, temps in a tank down there don't get above 70*F...and drop down into the low 60's at night. Once the snow flies, maybe even the high 50's.


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

Hi,

be carreful with the mold imported on woods... I have one tank where all plants are killed by a mold came from the wood...

Do you treat it before to use?
hydrogen peroxide is a good way :wink:


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2004)

Dancing Frogs, I just did a little searching around for Mantella information, and there are a few species from higher elevations that would probably do well if the tank were down in the basement. I might be leaning more toward these guys, instead. However, the plan of the tank will change depending on the habitat of the species I may choose (only looks like there is one or two species of arboreal Mantella...and I'm assuming they're not that common in the trade).

URBAN, sterilizing isn't something I usually do. I don't mind a little 'filth' in the tank, but you're right about mold: I don't want it to take over an entire orchid collection that I might put in there. I scrub some of the nastier bark off and any molds or mildews I see get a quick spray of the house and scrub, but beyond that I don't really sweat it. I allow for a little 'natural selection' to go on in my tanks. However, I might give that Hydrogen peroxide a try. Do you just treat the mold itself, or give the entire piece a scrubdown?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2004)

Decided to just go for it and mount the orchids I planned on putting in there. Right now I'm just going to focus on keeping plants. Here's a shot (excuse the scratches in the glass, etc.):


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

What type of orchids are those? Masdevilla?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2004)

Yeah. I REALLY wish I knew what they were, but I received them as a gift without tags and the person (who didn't really know) didn't have any info for me regarding where they got them, etc. As far as I can tell, they look almost exactly like M. tovarensis when in bloom, so my best guess is that I have a hybrid of that species. I've sent frags from these plants to a few folks and they seem to be doing well, so it might be a cross of tovarensis and maybe a more warmth-tolerant species. However, the blooms of these plants are crystalline white, so I have no idea what plant they could have been crossed with that would have left the blossoms so white. I think even M. floribunda tends to have some cream tones to the blooms.

Anyway, hope that answered your question. :? 

I'd like to get some moss growing on the branches and a few broms and/or ferns, and then just let things fill in all over the place. Any suggestions for species that would do alright in cooler conditions (60-70*F)?


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## mbrutger (May 23, 2004)

how much water/light do you give your orchids (Masdevilla?) i have one and it isn't doing that well, which is really frustrating me because all of my other orchids are doing REALLY well...


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2004)

The majority of Masdies come from cloudforests. Since they grow in high elevations, they need to be grown cooler than most orchids. They also need plenty of humidity but also decent air movement. All these factors need to be in place for them to do well. For most of them, you don't need tons of light (mine are putting multiple new leaves out each week under two 4' shoplights; have done the same under less lighting). It helps to know what species you have, then figure out where it comes from and cater your culturing to that: http://www.orchidspecies.com

They are nearly all epiphytic, and I have had the best success growing them potted in loose sphagnum moss. Keep it damp, but not soaked, otherwise you'll have some rot problem. This is where air movement falls into play as well. I'm assuming you aren't giving it the cool conditions it prefers. Are leaves dropping or shriveling?


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## mbrutger (May 23, 2004)

they turn yellow, rot, and then eventually fall off


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## Guest (Sep 26, 2004)

Yeah, it's not happy at all. What kind of temps and culture are you providing it? 

It shouldn't really be exposed to temps over 80*F (65-75* being MUCH more preferred. Much time spent in warmer temps will pretty much seal its demise). You also need a nighttime temperature drop of around 10*...so somwhere down to 55*F or so. If you happen to have a window A/C unit or central air, you could try to setup a small tank or enclosure near the unit or duct. Put a light over the tank, and a small layer of gravel on the bottom with some water. Partially cover the top of the tank, but leave some space for air to circulate. Spray the tank in the morning with some RO/DI or distilled water (I assume this is what you're using to water it, right?). Also, using fertilizers with this alliance can burn plants as well...I would shy away from it.

Any idea as to what species you have in your care?


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## mbrutger (May 23, 2004)

no, unfortunately it was just sold to me as "Masd." It has pinkish purple flowers... I definately agre, it is NOT happy.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

Like a tree frog!

:lol:


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

skylsdale said:


> Yeah, it's not happy at all. What kind of temps and culture are you providing it?
> 
> It shouldn't really be exposed to temps over 80*F (65-75* being MUCH more preferred.


Can't generalize like that, because several masdevilla are warm growing. Thats why its always important to try and find out the specific species you are purchasing. Although many do require cool tempetures.


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## Guest (Sep 27, 2004)

True...but I figured the species ID wasn't available, and the VAST majority of masdies prefer cooler temps over those that can tolerate (or even like) warmer ones. I figured if leaves are dropping, the best step is to put it somewhere cooler and raise humidity.


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## roberthvalera (Jun 9, 2006)

So how did this turn out?


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2006)

Oh wow...it didn't. I tried a couple different layouts and it didn't really turn out. Plus, with the cooler temps that I was achieving down in the basement, the montane species that would have been most comfortable were pretty terrestrial (Epips, etc.) and it wouldn't have really been all that conducive to their habits and preferences.

I did end up IDing the orchid, though: Masdevallia Snowbird.


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## roberthvalera (Jun 9, 2006)

Did you tear down the tank? Did the orchids survive?


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2006)

Yeah, I tore it down (which wasn't hard because I never really did much beyond the initial branches/moss/orchids). The orchids did great...but I traded them out with other orchid keepers.


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