# Mixing Tincs



## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi guys i am not trying to start another mixing debate, i would just like a simple answer.

Is it possible to house different morphs of tincs together, 
ie D.Tinctorius – azureus and D.Tinctorius - powder blue?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

It's curious to me that you know enough about this subject to expect a debate, but not enough to know the answer. The care requirements for different localities of tincs do not vary substantially if that is what you are asking. Gender conflicts can still arise. 

In a word, yes.

Please don't.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Boondoggle said:


> It's curious to me that you know enough about this subject to expect a debate, but not enough to know the answer. The care requirements for different localities of tincs do not vary substantially if that is what you are asking. Gender conflicts can still arise.
> 
> In a word, yes.
> 
> Please don't.


I agree, the poster seems to know the answer.


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## Dragonfly (Dec 5, 2007)

I agree that the OP seems to know both the answer and the responses this would trigger. Lets leave it at that.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Is it possible? Assuming you use the same rules you would use for any other tincs, probably.

_Should_ you mix those tincs? No.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Yes, you can house different types of tinc/azureus together.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Here we go again...

My opinion...It's not in the best interest of your animals.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

My opinion is that you should only do so if you're ONE HUNDRED PERCENT prepared to terminate or care for any potential offspring of these frogs for the 10 years plus that they will live, due to the fact that hybrid frogs could fall into irresponsible hands that will cause the hybrids to cross into pure bloodlines. This would be an indescribable disrespect to every other person in the dart frog hobby (at least those focused on conservation) and the animals themselves. 
With that said, mixing tincs presents no problems as long as you follow standard guidelines for keeping tinctorius (appropriate housing, numbers, diets, and sex ratios).


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## azure89 (Jan 5, 2009)

Not a good Idea they will almost surely fight. Tincs are best kept in breeding pairs.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Marinarawr said:


> My opinion is that you should only do so if you're ONE HUNDRED PERCENT prepared to terminate or care for any potential offspring of these frogs for the 10 years plus that they will live, due to the fact that hybrid frogs could fall into irresponsible hands that will cause the hybrids to cross into pure bloodlines. This would be an indescribable disrespect to every other person in the dart frog hobby (at least those focused on conservation) and the animals themselves.
> With that said, mixing tincs presents no problems as long as you follow standard guidelines for keeping tinctorius (appropriate housing, numbers, diets, and sex ratios).


As one of those other members of the hobby, please do not speak for me.

Thanks, Richard.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Knighty said:


> Hi guys i am not trying to start another mixing debate, i would just like a simple answer.
> 
> Is it possible to house different morphs of tincs together,
> ie D.Tinctorius – azureus and D.Tinctorius - powder blue?


I have kept groups of up to 15 tinc froglets of different morphs together and groups of 6-8 juveniles. Given that different morphs grow at different rates (dwarf Oyapoks grow smaller than the larger Powder blues and Alanises), you would have to keep a close eye on them to look for signs of stress (a frog growing much slower than it's tank sibs).

As for adult tinctorius, the rules are the same for mixed morphs as for single morphs. These frogs are best kept in pairs. Anyone who has a medium to large tinctorius collection will invariably end-up with a number of "spare parts". Housing a spare male Oyapock with a spare female Cobalt would not pose any issues, other than making sure that the should not be bred (unless this is you wish and are willing to bear the consequences of judgement of many on this board).

Good luck! Richard in Staten Island, NYC.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> As one of those other members of the hobby, please do not speak for me.
> 
> Thanks, Richard.


Sorry to offend...


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Marinarawr said:


> My opinion is that you should only do so if you're ONE HUNDRED PERCENT prepared to terminate or care for any potential offspring of these frogs for the 10 years plus that they will live, due to the fact that hybrid frogs could fall into irresponsible hands that will cause the hybrids to cross into pure bloodlines. This would be an indescribable disrespect to every other person in the dart frog hobby (at least those focused on conservation) and the animals themselves.
> With that said, mixing tincs presents no problems as long as you follow standard guidelines for keeping tinctorius (appropriate housing, numbers, diets, and sex ratios).


Please do not speak for me as well. I also have found it quite enjoyable to keep a mixed setup even though I have not chosen to raise any hybrids. I have no ill feelings for those that are choosing to and do not feel it will effect any registered breeders.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Marinarawr said:


> My opinion is that you should only do so if you're ONE HUNDRED PERCENT prepared to terminate or care for any potential offspring of these frogs for the 10 years plus that they will live, due to the fact that hybrid frogs could fall into irresponsible hands that will cause the hybrids to cross into pure bloodlines. This would be an indescribable disrespect to every other person in the dart frog hobby (at least those focused on conservation) and the animals themselves.
> With that said, mixing tincs presents no problems as long as you follow standard guidelines for keeping tinctorius (appropriate housing, numbers, diets, and sex ratios).


I thought Your post was perfectly logical Marina...for what's it worth


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

You guys are taking her words wrong, Marina certainly doesn't need everyone attacking her.


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## iljjlm (Mar 5, 2006)

Marinarawr said:


> My opinion is that you should only do so if you're ONE HUNDRED PERCENT prepared to terminate or care for any potential offspring of these frogs for the 10 years plus that they will live, due to the fact that hybrid frogs could fall into irresponsible hands that will cause the hybrids to cross into pure bloodlines. This would be an indescribable disrespect to every other person in the dart frog hobby (at least those focused on conservation) and the animals themselves.
> With that said, mixing tincs presents no problems as long as you follow standard guidelines for keeping tinctorius (appropriate housing, numbers, diets, and sex ratios).


Thank you for speaking for me
Dave


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

I smell another troll, or is this the same one? I dont remember.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

well,well, well i thought it may go wrong. 

I can assure every one that i did not know the answer to my question. I would personally not consider different morphs to be a mixed tank as are they not the same species, thus my reason for asking.

Woodsman thank you for the constructive answer i was looking for. It is not my goal or ambition to create hybrids, and i can assure you all that if they was to breed out of my control, i would deal with the of spring in an ethical manor. Im not saying i would euthanize them but i would garentre that they did not leave my care.

Thanks jellyman, simple answer to a simple question.

Marinarawr thank you also for your response. I can see your point on hybrids and in these times of amphibian crisis i agree that any of us interested or concerned with conservation would not want them being passed around to pure blood lines. Thank you also for the direct answer.

Boondoggle i am fully aware of the responsibilitys and the systematic problems that a mixed tank can raise, and i am fully aware that alot of people will shoot the idea down without even having the knowledge or experience to realy comment. I just wanted a yes no answer on morphs, as like i said before they are not a different species. Perhaps i should of worded the thresd like this........

"Other than the ethics of possible hybrids being born is there any other reasons why you can not keep two different morphs of tincs together?"

jubjub47/dragonfly please read the aove and i can assure you i did not know the answer, if i did i would not of asked.

frogfreak, can you please explain why it is not in the interest of my animals, considering they are the same species?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If they were from different parents they could be harboring different parasites. 1 w/ coccidia, 1 w/ lungworm and 1 w/ chytrid and you throw them in together and now they have chytrid, lungworm and coccidia and they won`t last long. So, yes, there is at least one good reason not to mix your offspring OR frogs you buy from diffferent places whether they be the same species or not.



Knighty said:


> well,well, well i thought it may go wrong.
> 
> I can assure every one that i did not know the answer to my question. I would personally not consider different morphs to be a mixed tank as are they not the same species, thus my reason for asking.
> 
> ...


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

frogfarm said:


> If they were from different parents they could be harboring different parasites. 1 w/ coccidia, 1 w/ lungworm and 1 w/ chytrid and you throw them in together and now they have chytrid, lungworm and coccidia and they won`t last long. So, yes, there is at least one good reason not to mix your offspring OR frogs you buy from diffferent places whether they be the same species or not.


i totaly agree there is a risk of introducing frogs from different gene pools, but all my frogs are quarentined for 6 weeks and are treated for chytrid asa matter of course. lets be honest how many peopl here have only frogs from the same parents? I know that it is not possible forevery one to do that, and i know any one that breeds does not.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

To clarify... I was saying that it would be disrespectful to other hobbyists if hybrids were to come into their collections without the knowledge that they were a mixed species. I wasn't saying that producing them was wrong, but I know that if I were to buy an azureus that turned out to be a cross with a New River, I'd be very upset (even though one could probably never know for sure). I wasn't even implying that the thread owner would be the one to do such a thing as misrepresent the frogs. I was simply trying to encourage the thread owner to keep or destroy any offspring (if any were to be produced) because trusting others to "do the right thing" (by which I mean passing along the records of said frogs or their offspring to the next hobbyist down the line) doesn't always have the desired outcome. My sincere apologies to anyone who was offended.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I only keep Tincs (18 different morphs and counting). When I first began this hobby, I too wanted to have a tank of all different types and colors of frogs. Then I actually started doing the research into it. The risks far outweigh anything I wanted to deal with. I have witnessed the behavior of agressive females (and males for that matter) and it isn't pretty. If by chance you have two proven females...put them together for a minute and watch what happens. It is brutal. 

Anyone who has kept and bred these guys know how prolific some of them can be. I have over 100 tads right now just from one pair of Patricias. Imagine if you had that many of a cross and you said you wouldn't euthanize...would you be able to keep all of them? I couldn't. I have to sell my tads just to have enough room for them now. Besides that, many in the hobby would shun you and refuse to buy from you (even the pure lines you may have) for fear of getting a cross. That said, I do keep similar sized newly morphed froglets in a tub together just for space reasons, but I am careful to seperate them by three months. Otherwise all of my tanks hold only one pair (not even trios) of Tincs. Just me adding my two cents.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

chesney said:


> I only keep Tincs (18 different morphs and counting). When I first began this hobby, I too wanted to have a tank of all different types and colors of frogs. Then I actually started doing the research into it. The risks far outweigh anything I wanted to deal with. I have witnessed the behavior of agressive females (and males for that matter) and it isn't pretty. If by chance you have two proven females...put them together for a minute and watch what happens. It is brutal.
> 
> Anyone who has kept and bred these guys know how prolific some of them can be. I have over 100 tads right now just from one pair of Patricias. Imagine if you had that many of a cross and you said you wouldn't euthanize...would you be able to keep all of them? I couldn't. I have to sell my tads just to have enough room for them now. Besides that, many in the hobby would shun you and refuse to buy from you (even the pure lines you may have) for fear of getting a cross. That said, I do keep similar sized newly morphed froglets in a tub together just for space reasons, but I am careful to seperate them by three months. Otherwise all of my tanks hold only one pair (not even trios) of Tincs. Just me adding my two cents.


i compleetly agree with the point on agressive females, and males, thus the reason i wish to buy frogs of a sexable size. The vivarium would be plenty large enough to house the trio as that is what i am aiming for, and in 8 or so years have never put frogs into a stressful situation or a unsuitable vivarium.
If i was to be stuck with 100 odd froglets then euthinasia would have to be seriously considered but would be my last option as i believe if you create the mess then you deal with it.

What other problems have you witnessed as the only issue i can see is the fact of hybrids and agression, but surley that is present even if keeping the same morph?


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> If they were from different parents they could be harboring different parasites. 1 w/ coccidia, 1 w/ lungworm and 1 w/ chytrid and you throw them in together and now they have chytrid, lungworm and coccidia and they won`t last long. So, yes, there is at least one good reason not to mix your offspring OR frogs you buy from diffferent places whether they be the same species or not.


This is exactly the same for the purist that gets his female from one breeder and his male from another breeder. Both could be harboring different diseases and unless quarantined and tested the same outcome would/could arise. So the reason you give is a reason not to keep any frogs mixed morph or pure morph unless proper quarantine steps/procedures are followed.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> This is exactly the same for the purist that gets his female from one breeder and his male from another breeder. Both could be harboring different diseases and unless quarantined and tested the same outcome would/could arise. So the reason you give is a reason not to keep any frogs mixed morph or pure morph unless proper quarantine steps/procedures are followed.


I think we may be getting our wires crossed.
I am agreeing that there is a risk of parasites and infections being passed on, BUT providing you do the correct procedures, quarentining, testing and treating i personal dont think the risk is any higher mixing morphs, lets be honest they are the same species, than buying a male from one breeder and a female from another.

We all aquire frogs from different sources and how can you be sure that the frogs aquired from stores are 100% related?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

It`s exactly the same for mixing your froglets, different morphs/species or different frogs from different lines to breed, etc. Anytime you put frogs into the same viv from different sources. If you`ve cleaned your 1 pair of adults from hookworm and none of your other breeders have it and it resurfaces from a cyst that was missed and your mixing all your froglets, it can get into all the frogs you produce from one pair.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Knighty said:


> I think we may be getting our wires crossed.
> I am agreeing that there is a risk of parasites and infections being passed on, BUT providing you do the correct procedures, quarentining, testing and treating i personal dont think the risk is any higher mixing morphs, lets be honest they are the same species, than buying a male from one breeder and a female from another.
> 
> We all aquire frogs from different sources and how can you be sure that the frogs aquired from stores are 100% related?


We are on the same page.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Knighty said:


> Boondoggle i am fully aware of the responsibilitys and the systematic problems that a mixed tank can raise, and i am fully aware that alot of people will shoot the idea down without even having the knowledge or experience to realy comment. I just wanted a yes no answer on morphs, as like i said before they are not a different species.


It wasn't my intention to offend. There have just been a number of high profile threads that have touched on this subject very recently, and as always, they bring out the absolute worse in people. Try using the search function with some of the "hot words" to see what I mean. 

Because of my own personal bias's I try to steer anyone away from most types of mixing, but you will see that I did give a simple answer to your question. Yes, It's possible.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Knighty said:


> We all aquire frogs from different sources and how can you be sure that the frogs aquired from stores are 100% related?


While I admit that I've acquired a few of my species of frogs from different sources, all the individuals from each of those species are acquired from the same source. So, I can effectively say, "I don't!"


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

SmackoftheGods said:


> While I admit that I've acquired a few of my species of frogs from different sources, all the individuals from each of those species are acquired from the same source. So, I can effectively say, "I don't!"


So does that mean any attemps at breeding or any natural occurances will be of siblings? is this not wrong and un ethical as it dilutes the bloodline? Any one that has bred succesfully and ethically will have had to source frogs of the same species form different sources. Unless a breeder is visited in person how can any one be sure on the word of there local store?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> So does that mean any attemps at breeding or any natural occurances will be of siblings? is this not wrong and un ethical as it dilutes the bloodline? Any one that has bred succesfully and ethically will have had to source frogs of the same species form different sources. Unless a breeder is visited in person how can any one be sure on the word of there local store?


Keep in mind that most of these frogs are descended from only one importation of usually only a few individuals so they are all related to one degree or another.. 
The only way to maximize the allele frequency is have the frogs registered with as much pedigree information as can be tracked as this will allow for people to get frogs that are as distantly related as possible... 

Ed


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