# And the results are in! ...



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

So the fecals came back for my first couple darts... And one has worms :/ I'm awaiting the chytrid and rana swabs. Looooong sigh. So now the next step...

I can buy the meds to treat her, but I'll have to chlorine/water bathe the objects and pump, bake the wood, rinse the tank and start over? I got a bottle of physan as well.

Remaining from the sellers are a bag of fly media and substrate. Are these safe or chuck em?

Lastly, what's customary in a situation like this? Ask for refunds on a treatable frog, reimbursements for meds and further tests or something else entirely? 

Just goes to show frog room pics, healthy looking frogs, and knowledgable sellers can still not be enough  only buying from peer vet-ed breeders from here on out.


----------



## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Most worms are pretty easy to treat, so if it is something like hook worm, easily treatable. But that is why it is good to place frogs in a simple QT tub with minimal items inside until you get your test results back. I personally would not reuse the wood. No amount of baking is 100% on that, but that is just me.

As for having worms... I have to say, there are a lot more collections with worms in them then most folks will let on. I personally fecal frogs regardless where they come from. And hook worm is fairly common in them. Well maybe not common, but it def pops up from time to time. And every time has been a reputable seller or a friend even. It is not the end of the world though. Now if your swabs came back with Rana or Chytrid, that is much more cause for concern. Rana being of course worst case scenario. But I would not worry about that until seeing the results. That is a much rarer occurrence though.

I would still inform the seller of your test results though. If it were me, I would want to know. No one can be 100% certain their collection is 100% "clean" 100% of the time. The only thing we can do, is take all of the needed precautions, and be responsible about what we sell, or trade with other hobbyists. And honesty, it goes a long way


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VoidDiver said:


> I can buy the meds to treat her, but I'll have to chlorine/water bathe the objects and pump, bake the wood, rinse the tank and start over? I got a bottle of physan as well.


What kinds of worms did the frogs have? You are aware that doing all of this does not mean that you cannot transfer hookworm larvae, Rhabdiform nematodes or coccidians or prevent them from infecting the frogs? 



VoidDiver said:


> Remaining from the sellers are a bag of fly media and substrate. Are these safe or chuck em?


If you haven't been rolling the frogs in them or mixing frog fecal material or material from the cages in the media or substrate then it is still fine. 



VoidDiver said:


> Lastly, what's customary in a situation like this? Ask for refunds on a treatable frog, reimbursements for meds and further tests or something else entirely?


This is a problem area. Too few people pay attention to the fact that infected frogs can be perfectly healthy and not shed any parasites in their fecals. A negative fecal only tells you that no parasites were detected at that time. That is all that it tells you. A positive fecal on the other hand does tell you something, first off that there is an infection and secondly that the frog may not be managing the infection at that time probably due to stress from the transit and new enclosure. The breeder may check and have had negative results. 



VoidDiver said:


> Just goes to show frog room pics, healthy looking frogs, and knowledgable sellers can still not be enough  only buying from peer vet-ed breeders from here on out.


And you can still get infected frogs through no fault of the breeder or seller. 
The only thing you can do is periodically check your animals, monitor for signs of illness and work with your vet on the proper approach. I should note that it may also not be in the best interest of the animals to treat them, you need to work with your vet on it. You may find the following post informative. I would suggest contacting Kevin but he has since passed away http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...5-regular-treatment-parasites.html#post298624 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

Thanks as always guys. I now have all the test results back to address this fully...and the plot thickens. Turns out one or both also have chytrid (the vet batch sent the swabs). The worms are nematodes. 

First step is treatment. I apply the medications in QT tubs, bleach bathe the tank and outer surfaces. As for other items like the lights and supplies, these "should" be fine as chytrid (according to sources) dies on dry surfaces within 24 hours, and 30+ days in damp environments. If I follow these steps it should eradicate the infections correct?



Ed said:


> You are aware doing all of this does not mean that you cannot transfer worms...


Does that mean that following these steps it's still not possible to clear these problems?



Ed said:


> As long as you haven't been rolling the frogs in them or mixing frog fecal material or material from the cages in the media or substrate then it is still fine.


I ask because both items are actually produced by the sellers. Also given the chytrid result, would this change?



Ed said:


> And you can still get infected frogs through no fault of the breeder or seller.


This was some serious consolation that the sellers may mean no ill will. I was feeling a lot better till I got the chytrid result. Negligence aside it's frustrating to get frogs with two nasties. I will let the seller know but it's a shame there's no method for recompense. I have no qualms about the duties of responsible dart ownership but it stings to have to spend so much additional effort and money to clean up some one else's mess. Had I suspected there could easily be this many problems I would have just gone with a reputable online seller. The shipping costs are a drop in the bucket compared to medicine and following retests.


----------



## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

VoidDiver said:


> This was some serious consolation that the sellers may mean no ill will. I was feeling a lot better till I got the chytrid result. Negligence aside it's frustrating to get frogs with two nasties. I will let the seller know but it's a shame there's no method for recompense. I have no qualms about the duties of responsible dart ownership but it stings to have to spend so much additional effort and money to clean up some one else's mess. Had I suspected there could easily be this many problems I would have just gone with a reputable online seller. The shipping costs are a drop in the bucket compared to medicine and following retests.


I feel you there, I would be majorly upset to get a positive chytrid result from a supposedly reputable seller. So you bought these frogs in person at a show, or from someone locally? What type of frogs are they? Is there any chance they could be wild caught as opposed to captive bred? 

If you wouldn't mind dropping me a PM with the name of the company you purchased the frogs from I'd appreciate it. I'd just like to add it to my list of companies to avoid for now.


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

Dev30ils said:


> I feel you there, I would be majorly upset to get a positive chytrid result from a supposedly reputable seller. So you bought these frogs in person at a show, or from someone locally? What type of frogs are they? Is there any chance they could be wild caught as opposed to captive bred?
> 
> If you wouldn't mind dropping me a PM with the name of the company you purchased the frogs from I'd appreciate it. I'd just like to add it to my list of companies to avoid for now.


Seriously, it should be an unwritten rule if you sell someone a bad frog you either refund them the frog or initial tests, or alternatively all meds and retests. Ain't my fault, I'm the responsible one. I bought one tinc azureus and one tinc cobalt both at the Utah reptile expo. The cobalt had nematodes, can't confirm which (or both) had the chytrid as the vet sent in the results in batch... There is a possibility it got it from the enclosure I bought to keep it in but this depends on how long it would take for it to get infected and it to show up. I tested them about 10 days after I bought them. I will PM you the sellers.


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Why was only one chytrid sample sent in, where they kept together? 

I would like to know where the frogs came from as well, I sent you a PM.

Good luck!

John


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

There were separate chytrid samples but the vet didn't individually mark them(?)


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

VoidDiver said:


> There were separate chytrid samples but the vet didn't individually mark them(?)


Huh, I have no idea why the vet did that. Individual samples would have been a better way to go since they haven't been in contact with each other. 

john


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VoidDiver said:


> Does that mean that following these steps it's still not possible to clear these problems?


Correct. If materials are porous and/or organic, then you cannot really disinfect them as soil, crevices for example can prevent contact with the disinfectant.... organics react with disinfectants reducing their effectiveness. 

Even treating the frogs doesn't mean that they will clear the infection, it is possible to go through multiple cycles before eliminating a parasite. Also it is not uncommon for a second or third parasite to make it's presence known during treatment due to the stress on the frog. Keep that in mind that post treatment fecals are still important. 



VoidDiver said:


> I ask because both items are actually produced by the sellers. Also given the chytrid result, would this change?


No. 



VoidDiver said:


> This was some serious consolation that the sellers may mean no ill will. I was feeling a lot better till I got the chytrid result. Negligence aside it's frustrating to get frogs with two nasties. I will let the seller know but it's a shame there's no method for recompense. I have no qualms about the duties of responsible dart ownership but it stings to have to spend so much additional effort and money to clean up some one else's mess. Had I suspected there could easily be this many problems I would have just gone with a reputable online seller. The shipping costs are a drop in the bucket compared to medicine and following retests.


And you could have just as easily gotten the issues or other ones from reputable online sellers. For some reason people have a hard time understanding that a *negative fecal does not mean that the frogs are free of parasites or even healthy*. It can take months or even years before a positive fecal is found from the animals. A positive fecal months or years later for a parasite or parasites is often put at the feet of the keeper when the animals could have been infected and asymptomatic before the purchaser ever received them. 

*I don't know who you got the frogs from and to tell the truth I really don't care but unless the person is willing to put in writing that if they become positive at anytime after you buy them then you run the same risks even from those who claim to have "parasite free collections*". 

With respect to chytrid, there are differences in accuracy between labs so it is also possible that you have a false positive. If you have been keeping the frogs below 78 F and have no overt signs of chytrid then I would suggest a retest with a different lab. 

Did you read the link I posted earlier? 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

FroggyKnight said:


> Huh, I have no idea why the vet did that. Individual samples would have been a better way to go since they haven't been in contact with each other.
> 
> john


Perhaps the OP bought each frog from a different source but was housing them together? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/206185-frog-plagues-doom.html


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

He did purchase them from separate sources, but VoidDiver did not keep the frogs together. 

John


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

Ed - You bet, I read all of it. In regards to my frustrations, I only say that because I got the frogs not long before doing the tests. I get the thing with the fecals, after reading your guys previous responses I wasn't terribly concerned about that. I was more concerned about the chytrid. It's intimidating when just starting 

Others - I housed them separately as you should. The confusion is the vet swabbed them in the same visit and sent the swabs in together. I was keeping one in a loosely set up habitat I bought on the same day.

Thanks

Ty


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VoidDiver said:


> . I was more concerned about the chytrid. It's intimidating when just starting


With respect to chytrid, it is easily cured, easily managed and the biggest concern should be preventing it from getting into the local environment as there is data indicating that strains have different levels of lethality. Control to prevent it from escaping into the local environment is simple, bleach all waste water and double bag and discard all solids into the appropriate waste stream. 

When I referred to it being easily managed chytrid does not kill frogs below 75-78 F so if there is a suspicion that chytrid is present then keeping the frogs above 80 F while waiting for confirmation will not only prevent death but prevents the appearance of symptoms. (Some frogs can even clear the infection from themselves when given access to higher temperatures). 

As I mentioned above, treatment is easy, bathing the frogs for ten minutes/day for a set number of days (generally 7-10 days) with a prescribed antifungal medication readily clears the infection. As you noted, drying will kill the zoospores as will temperatures above 124 F, and exposure to a wide variety of disinfectants (although using disinfectants on material like wood may not work due to the interaction between the disinfectant and the organics or crevices). 
Chytrid also doesn't survive well on human skin and is able to be inactivated after a relative short period of time (I can't remember the exact number off hand but it's surprisingly quick) but proper handwashing between enclosures resolves the issue, or you can use gloves but make sure to wet them before handling the frogs. 

Does that help explain it? 

Ed


----------



## zimmerj (Aug 20, 2014)

Ed, should both frogs be treated for Chytrid even though only 1 of them tested positive?


----------



## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

zimmerj said:


> Ed, should both frogs be treated for Chytrid even though only 1 of them tested positive?


I'm not Ed, but I would say yes since its unknown which frog (or both) has chytrid.

John


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

That's immensely helpful and a huge piece of mind. I learned more in that one post than hours of research online. It's ironic how infective something can be in the wild but easily dealt with when handled responsibly. I will make sure to dispose of all waste materials properly and raise the enclosure temps.

It goes without saying I will be treating both of the frogs given the unestablished sicky.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In cases like this, google scholar is a much better source of information than a lot of the regular websites. There are a lot of articles on chytrid linked on this forum. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> When I referred to it being easily managed chytrid does not kill frogs below 75-78 F so if there is a suspicion that chytrid is present then keeping the frogs above 80 F while waiting for confirmation will not only prevent death but prevents the appearance of symptoms. (Some frogs can even clear the infection from themselves when given access to higher temperatures).


Ed, can you please clarify? Keep frogs in the 70s to inhibit the fungus, or above 80? Just a little confused by the sentence. If its high temps that inhibit the fungus, then why is "global warming" causing the uptrend in the infections? 

thanks.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> Ed, can you please clarify? Keep frogs in the 70s to inhibit the fungus, or above 80? Just a little confused by the sentence. If its high temps that inhibit the fungus, then why is "global warming" causing the uptrend in the infections?
> 
> thanks.


There is some good science out there on temperature inhibition of chytrid lethality. The frogs or toads still become infected but the ability of the fungus to cause deaths varies depending on the temperature. Originally the bench mark was 75 F and above mortality didn't occur, however some later papers showed some mortality at 78 F which is where the suggest increase to 80 F originated.

Why the fungus doesn't kill at the higher temperatures isn't well known as of yet but depending on the species of frog or toad it is also possible for them to clear the fungus at temperatures above 90 F. (see for example Woodhams, D. C.; Alford, R.A.; Marantelli, G. June 2003. Emerging disease of amphibians cured by elevated body temperature. Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 55: 65-67). 
The main thing to remember is that higher temperatures it doesn't kill the frog but it doesn't stop further infections. In more temperate regions there are increases in mortality during the spring and fall months as the temperature cool and when metamorphs emerge from the water. 

The reason global warming is implicated in it is because overall it is shifting the temperatures towards a more optimal zone for the growth of the fungus. See for example http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v439/n7073/full/nature04246.html Now the temperature shift will eventually move outside of the optimal zone for the fungus over a longer time scale but the issues are how many species will survive long-enough for that shift to occur (and be able to tolerate those changes)? 

Does that help? (I'd write more but my break from making maple sugar apple butter is over). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Thanks Ed. Apple butter sounds good. 

Is there a correlation between temps and expression of the symptoms? Can the fungus be seen on the frog more prevalantly at higher or lower temperature?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Above 80 F the frogs are going to be asymptomatic in that they do not show any of the symptoms from the infection. They remain infected (unless they can get warm enough to clear the infection and survive the temperatures). 

If the frogs are below 75 F, then they develop the disease and if the conditions remain below 75 F, they will progress and die. This is one of the potential risks to the hobby from people who insist on the totally closed up enclosures as they then have to try and keep the temperatures below 75 F to keep the frogs from death due to heat issues (since they cannot utilize evaporative cooling). 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed...this may sound off the wall...but what would the outward signs look like...can you see something on the affected frog? How would the frog behave if infected? Are there WC frogs from certain countries that have more of an endemic problem than others? Do you, in your opinion-only--believe that importers really do send in cultures on these problems?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> Ed...this may sound off the wall...but what would the outward signs look like...can you see something on the affected frog? How would the frog behave if infected? Are there WC frogs from certain countries that have more of an endemic problem than others? Do you, in your opinion-only--believe that importers really do send in cultures on these problems?


Hi Judy,

There are a number of symptoms but the initial ones tend to be pretty subtle. In the earliest cases, retention of some shed skin in the affected areas (this generally means the belly), some cases of change in pigmentation (again on the belly) generally some black spots developing. Later stages, changes in movement and resting behavior. The animal starts to soak a lot and in a number of cases begins to avoid contact with the substrate. 
The thing to remember is that in some cases, the frog may not show any of the above signs and may simply be found dead. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

Since my last post my frogs have undergone treatment and are currently in quarantine. The vet gave a solution with a prescription label for the itranconazole however the pack itself is labeled as sodium chloride. I will be following up with them to verify. 

Since then I have noticed darts in both the store I bought the in-question habitat from, and the new aquarium here in Utah that have the twitching digits. The same thing I had previously observed on mine. If this is from chytrid it seems there is a serious infestation here. 

One interesting thing I came across in research, according to the study here http://www.jcu.edu.au/rainforest/publications/amphibian_disease.pdf on page 23, nitrile gloves apparently have yet unproven fungal growth inhibiting properties. 

On a side note our Petcos apparently have leucs here now, not sure whether to be horrified or hopeful. And anyone see some of these awesome holiday deals on Joshs Frogs?


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

Also, I'm feeling about ready to start doing my own habitat building. In your vast experience Ed, which do you feel to be the "perfect" breeder tank size/brand (and any mods)? There are a lot of options and some folks have put forth some good pros and cons for each, here. I'm trying to figure out which is the ideal setup for lining on racks (I've been eyeballing the Ikea bakery racks and debating with building my own with lumber to stain black)


----------



## OrangeTyrant (May 12, 2011)

VoidDiver said:


> Since then I have noticed darts in both the store I bought the in-question habitat from, and the new aquarium here in Utah that have the twitching digits. The same thing I had previously observed on mine. If this is from chytrid it seems there is a serious infestation here.


Toe-twitching is a common behavior seen in healthy dart frogs as a feeding/hunting response. See: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/49762-twitchy-middle-toe.html


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If I'm following correctly, you purchased a viv that was already set up, to put them in. Was that vivarium from the same person? Was that vivarium new or used? It is a possibility that your problems could stem from putting them into an already infected vivarium.


----------



## VoidDiver (Oct 2, 2014)

That's good to know, I hadn't come across anything other than chytrid seizures so I assumed it was that.

I had considered the infected viv. Initially I thought it was one of the sellers as that frog had worms as well. However having since read others stories here while that's possible, I think it's just as if not more likely it came from the viv. They are still in QT while I send in second results this time to Pisces. Meanwhile I'm prepping for tank building, hence the tank question. There's so many options with different pros. Ultimately my major concerns are if they're bug proof, ease of adding drain spouts, and ease of access for servicing. And to your question, the viv was established, not from same seller as frog, and I wouldn't be surprised if they transported something to the show in it.

On a side note, the itraconazole/sodium chloride solution was only about $20 for the whole bag. It almost makes me feel that treating all new frogs for chytrid is worth the possible stress it will cause. Reading frogface's story from earlier this year and the new acquisitions proceduring of some zoos/aquariums reinforced this logic. Plus, if done properly, chytrid treatment doesn't sound too abrasive.

On that note the more I read about plants it sounds like the safest route is to grow plants then use disinfected clippings for tanks? I believe I read Ed saying something similar.


----------

