# Hookworms/panacur questions



## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

So here is my situation

I got a group of 2.2 leucs and have them in a QT with coco fiber,sphagnum, and live oak leaf litter. I had fecals done by Dr. Frye and they came back positive for hookworms. I was recommended panacur by him so I paid for it right away and it is on it's way. I then started to read up on it and now realize this may not have been the best option. I see a lot of dangers of over/under dosing by dusting the flies with it but I also see that using it in a suspension might not be possible to put it on the frog. Basically I just don't know what to do when the panacur comes besides to dust with it and do the tank changes but I really don't want to harm the frogs. 
Also on that note what can I keep in the tank to provide hides ect. that are easily obtainable and disposable? I am gonna move them to just paper towels once I start treatment but any other ideas are welcomed. I just can't afford to keep doing the coco fiber, leaves, and sphagnum once a week for over a month.

It should be noted that they don't seem to have any ill effects from the worms as they are all a healthy weight and very active.

Sorry this is a long post I just wanna do this right. This is my second group of frogs in a row that I have purchased and had a bad fecal and it's wearing me out.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

You can use plastic plant pots or solo cups for hides.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Just my experience, dusting the flies with it the same as with supplements, and giving a normal serving of flies for a day, and then changing the container the day after, doing this once weekly, for a total of 4 times has always worked for me.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The above method is what I have done in the past, and it worked for me


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

In my experience over last 15 years Panacur is very very safe drug if used as suggested..


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## Amphinityfrogs (Jan 30, 2013)

If your unsure about the panacur I have had great success with .01 ivermectin diluted in 1l of distilled water. Soak the frogs in that for a few min. still there is a chance of overdosing, there will always be a chance of that. Dr. Frye knows his stuff so you will be fine doing what he says.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I think I will just try it and see.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

What everyone here said is pretty much spot on with how I do it. Keep it simple  best of luck


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

@Amphinityfrogs: To be practical, how much is .01 ivermectin? One drop, two drops? Thanks


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Another thought, These guys climb and fall basically all day which isn't an issue since they fall onto leaves ect and it's soft. Does anyone for see problems with just using paper towel because of that?


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Aloy of the guys who import pumilio keep them in kritter keepers with paper towels. So if it works for them... But I've read post by some who dont like paper towels due to chemicals there manufactured with.


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## Amphinityfrogs (Jan 30, 2013)

I have my local vet mix up the ivermectin. its kinda pricey like 60 dollars but you then dilute the .01 ivermectin into a Liter of water. Personally I'd go with the panacur since you bought it


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

If your frogs are active, feeding and maintaining weight why treat them at all. We still don't know the full extent of the beneficial microfauna inhabiting amphibian guts, nor do we know the long term impact of killing of this micro fauna, which is bound to happen whenever you treat for hook worms. In 30 years of working will wild caught imports of frogs and lizards, I have seen much more harm caused by thing like panacur. In my opinion and this is an opinion shared by at least one of the best Amphibian vets in the world, treatment is only needed if the animals are sluggish, losing weight or if white or red blood cells can be seen in their fecals.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

mantisdragon91 said:


> If your frogs are active, feeding and maintaining weight why treat them at all. We still don't know the full extent of the beneficial microfauna inhabiting amphibian guts, nor do we know the long term impact of killing of this micro fauna, which is bound to happen whenever you treat for hook worms. In 30 years of working will wild caught imports of frogs and lizards, I have seen much more harm caused by thing like panacur. In my opinion and this is an opinion shared by at least one of the best Amphibian vets in the world, treatment is only needed if the animals are sluggish, losing weight or if white or red blood cells can be seen in their fecals.


However, the worms could infest their permanent home which could cause bigger problems later such as a more serious case of infestation within the frog and a loss of a perfectly good viv. and even though I am very careful with how I do things cross contamination is possible and it could harm other frogs I have/will have. I do appreciate your view point though as it brings up a side to the discussion I have not read in any other posts.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

I understand and originally shared your concerns. Years of experience have taught me that this concern may not be warranted. Below is a link to the 2009 symposium at the San Diego Zoo on control of infectious diseases in captive amphibians. I think you will find page 85 of particular interest as you make your decisions.




http://www.cbsg.org/cbsg/workshopreports/26/amphibian_disease_manual.pdf


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

And here is another article from 2009 from one of the foremost authorities on Amphibian medicine. Dr. Kevin Wright DVM:

NAVC Conference 2009
______________________________________________________________________________________________
1826
HOW I TREAT NEMATODES IN FROGS
Kevin Wright, DVM
Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital, LLC
Mesa, AZ
Nematodes are a ubiquitous presence in captive frog
collections. I advocate a discussion between the
veterinarian and the client to understand the purpose of
the frog collection and to develop a preventive health
program based on an assessment of the risk posed by
nematodes and the potential impact their presence may
have on management (eg, exchanging specimens with
other collections). A particularly thorny issue is the
presence of nematodes in frogs destined for assurance
colonies. These frogs are genetic reservoirs against
extinctions in the wild and they come in with a spectrum
of parasites that shared their natural environments. The
balance shifts in captivity for a variety of reasons, many
of which are incompletely understood. Is it the best
management choice to eliminate these parasites in
captive specimens and thereby possibly artificially select
for frogs that have immune systems that have never
encountered by these nematodes when their offspring
may one day be reintroduced into the wild and have to
face these same parasites?
In many cases, frogs appear to be perfectly healthy
despite a high number of nematode ova or larvae being
found regularly in their feces. I believe that in some
cases my prolonged rigorous anthelmintic treatments
and associated sanitation and hygiene management
may have sent frogs into a decline. Currently I do not
recommend treatment for frogs that are apparently
healthy, eating well and maintaining or gaining weight,
and producing normal feces despite the presence of
nematode ova or larvae per high power field on direct or
flotation fecal parasite exams. However, if any frogs in
the collection appear unthrifty, there are mortalities with
nematodes implicated or there are otherwise
unexplained mortalities, or direct fecal parasite exams
reveal more than 5 to10 RBCs or 1 to 5 WBCs per high
power field along with nematode ova or larvae, I do
recommend treatment.
Topical ivermectin at 4 mg/kg repeated at 7, 14, and
21 days is an easy to administer anthelmintic that is
effective on many nematodes. I have also given it by
diluting 10 mg of ivermectin into 1000 mL of water and
using it as a 60- to 120-minute shallow bath repeated at
7, 14, and 21 days and it appears to be effective despite
the insolubility of ivermectin in water. Direct topical
application or baths are useful for small frogs where
injections or oral medications are impractical. This dose
is quite high compared with the 0.2 mg/kg I recommend
for oral and injectable routes. When ivermectin needs to
be delivered to tiny frogs, consider asking a
compounding pharmacy to prepare a 0.1 mg/mL
injectable solution. Otherwise, you may orally administer
ivermectin diluted with vegetable oil or propylene glycol
to this concentration or even 0.05 mg/mL for very tiny
frogs.
Fenbendazole, at 25 to 50 mg/kg PO once a day for
3 to 5 days and repeated in 14 to 21 days, is also
effective but is more challenging to administer than
ivermectin. There has been some evidence of
leukopenias accompanying fenbendazole treatment in
reptiles but I am unaware of this being documented in
amphibians. While other drugs within this family, such as
thiabendazole and albendazole, are reported in the
literature, I have not used either in an amphibian. I will
often use ivermectin and fenbendazole concurrently.
I have little experience with pyrantel palmoate but it
appears to be an excellent choice to eliminate
nematodes that are resistant to ivermectin or
fenbendazole. A typical dose is 5 mg/kg orally (PO)
repeated in 14 to 21 days. Drontal, which includes
pyrantel palmoate and praziquantel, has been used with
the dosage figured by the amount of pyrantel palmoate
(Brad Lock, personal communication, 2008).
I used to regularly treat with levamisole at 10 mg/L to
100 mg/L as a continuous bath for 3 to 5 days in aquatic
frogs and other amphibians. There is a risk of flaccid
paralysis so it should be used with caution in unfamiliar
species. I have had no cause to use it in several years
as I rarely deal with frogs that cannot be treated in other
ways.
It is extremely important to spot clean visible feces
out of enclosures. With lush planted enclosures that
have been heavily contaminated with nematodes, a
discussion should be had about moving the frogs to
temporary quarters for treatment and an effort to reduce
the parasite load in the main enclosure. A thorough soak
of the plants and substrate with levamisole (100 mg/L)
once a week is helpful. The enclosure needs to be
thoroughly rinsed with fresh water several times. Rinse
water should be tested with modified Nessler’s reagent,
the common reagent used to detect ammonia in tropical
fish water quality test kits, as it will flocculate in the
presence of levamisole at levels as low as 10 mg/L.
I would couple any anthelmintic treatment with
regular direct fecal parasite exams to evaluate a shift in
cytology and fluctuations in nematode ova and larvae.
While there is often no correlation between reduction in
nematode ova or larvae in feces and actual reduction in
nematode numbers, I often see improvement when the
ova or larvae counts go down and the feces has less
than 5 to 10 RBC per high power field and 1 to 5 WBC
per high power field. If a frog is also recovering its
weight, having normal stool, and showing normal
behaviors, I consider the treatment a success. With
problematic enclosures, randomly collected feces should
be assessed for parasites.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Those are both very helpful and at a level where a non-vet person like myself can understand. Thank you for showing those to me, I will be saving both to my files. I think I will contact the vet and see what level the infestation is at. I think I will still run through a course of treatment and see how it changes the levels and decide from there. Although I do understand the value and natural aspect of the animal having some parasites ect. I still am not sure if that is something to be sought after when they are already in very controlled situations like a viv.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

My pleasure. One other thing to consider, as I tend to cringe when people talk about having "clean" frogs free of parasites. All you are doing by eliminating all parasites is raising future generations of animals without any natural resistance to parasites which can prove quickly fatal when and if they are exposed to other animals that may not have been kept under conditions that are as stringent. This can be seen by the "sterile" movement regarding kids in the US and the rise of all kinds of food allergies that we have never experienced in the past.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Amphibian vets in the world, treatment is only needed if the animals are sluggish, losing weight or if white or red blood cells can be seen in their fecals.


Roman,

This is true of many parasites but there are several that are parsed out for specific concern due to their ability to build into super/hyper-infections in captive animals. These infections can be heavy enough that any stressor can push the animal into a rapid decline and death... (and yes I've seen this myself)... 
the two of the big ones are Rhabditiform nematodes, and hookworms as both of these can penetrate the skin with ease and survive in the substrates for significant periods of time. Hookworms even asymptomatic do damage as they can cause anemia, and damage to the lining of the digestive tract.. These can disrupt may factors such as growth, reproduction and nutritional status of the frogs. 

In the big reference you provided, they recommend keeping the amphibian on a substrate that is changed every 24-48 hours to help break the life cycle.. this works for a number of species but newly imported amphibians that are already heavily stressed this can result in death (and I've seen this happen as well). 

While I share your concern about the accuracy of dosing a frog via dusted feeders when much more accurate methods are available there are some parasites that probably should be treated (or closely monitored until the animal is stable) and then treatment should be considered. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

Just an update. Frogs are still active and holding weight well, eating fine, and even laid good eggs in QT. I have been dusting FFs with Panacur once a week and changing the substrate (paper towels) and bleaching the tank (with frogs out of course) 24hrs after the dusted flies are fed as suggested by the vet. I have also been removing feces as I see them the rest of the week. I have seen one runny feces that was very reddish brown and abnormal but I believe that is from the supplements being excreted and not absorbed in combination with stress from changing the tank. I have only seen that once but still a potential concern. I am sending out another round of fecals next week to see if any progress has been made.


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## zth8992 (Jul 19, 2012)

More updates. Did a 3 week course of panacur and got a clean fecal. Going to give one more treatment to finish the recommended 4 weeks and see if I still get a clean test.


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