# Magnolia Leave Question



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I have never used leaf liter in any of my tanks. I read about alot of people using magnolia leaves. I just found out my wife's parents have a few magnolia trees so I thought I may use them in a section of my new 320g vivarium. Why are magnolia leaves prefered in the hobby?
Thanks


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Most dart frogs like to hide and lay their eggs onto surfaces that are smooth. Magnolia leaves are an easy fix to ground cover as well as egg deposit locations. This is why I use them. I have a 55 gallon that has a bunch of Leucs in them and they will only deposit eggs on the smooth surface of these leaves. I have film canisters as well as open bottles for them to do so. I think that this is a common place for frogs to do this, as the Hawaiian Auratus in Hawaii will lay eggs inside broken beer bottles and leaf litter as well.

PS: You obviously want to make sure since these leaves are not on your property to make sure they have not been sprayed by chemicals or pesticides. The location you get them from might not spray but what about the neighbor as the wind can pick up particles and spread them quite a few feet away. I always clean and bake mine as well to kill any parasites or creepy crawlies but not for long periods of time. Hope all this helps.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Magnolia leaves in particular are a good choice because they don't decompose too quickly. I've tried several varieties so far and oak and magnolia last quite a bit longer than say maple.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Phyllobater said:


> Magnolia leaves in particular are a good choice because they don't decompose too quickly. I've tried several varieties so far and oak and magnolia last quite a bit longer than say maple.


LOL Maple lasts about 5mins in my tanks. There are some other options as well. One option that I love but it is hard for me to get my hands on is the "Live Oak Tree" yes that is the name. They are like small 3-5in long magnolia leaves, but they are a type of oak tree. They are known to south GA and surrounding areas, but I can't seem to find any in the Metro Atlanta area. Not saying they are not here because my body who lives a good 45 mins away does have them but close to me, no existent. I have spent hours calling and looking for them.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Well breeding is not a concern of mine. I'm strictly in it for the enjoyment of watching the frogs. I like the idea that they will not breakdown as fast as other leaves. That is very helpful.
Thanks


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

atlfrog said:


> LOL Maple lasts about 5mins in my tanks. There are some other options as well. One option that I love but it is hard for me to get my hands on is the "Live Oak Tree" yes that is the name. They are like small 3-5in long magnolia leaves, but they are a type of oak tree. They are known to south GA and surrounding areas, but I can't seem to find any in the Metro Atlanta area. Not saying they are not here because my body who lives a good 45 mins away does have them but close to me, no existent. I have spent hours calling and looking for them.


Those would be perfect. Let us know if you find a source (that you don't mind sharing )


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> Well breeding is not a concern of mine. I'm strictly in it for the enjoyment of watching the frogs. I like the idea that they will not breakdown as fast as other leaves. That is very helpful.
> Thanks


Well I am a hobbyist (with a business and no breeding is not the only thing I think about) and when I first started out my frogs bred like many other people out there.  Most people do use magnolia leaves because they do not break down as fast as others, but they are commonly used as good leaf litter and for breeding purposes.  There are many threads on this forum that have asked this question before, see below. The question was, "Why are magnolia leaves preferred in the hobby?" And both myself and Phyllobater filled you in pretty well then. Magnolia leaves are awesome and depending on the size of the tank they can cover a vast area in a small amount of the leaves.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/38064-ground-coverings-decorative-items.html


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Phyllobater said:


> Those would be perfect. Let us know if you find a source (that you don't mind sharing )


I do have a source. I can have them shipped from my buddies location if someone needs some. So you an always ask me. I just hate driving all the way there because of traffic and traffic lights. LOL


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Beyond being obvious cover for the frogs, they also serve as refugia for microfauna and foraging grounds. Magnolia and live oak are particularly long lasting. 

But even more compelling a reason to utilize leaf litter is its presence in the native environments of the commonly kept PDF species. Those lush moss carpets may be visually appealing to us, but they aren't common environs for the frogs.


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

the magnolia leaves i've gathered all have a very flowery scent, even after boiling them. is this ok?


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

IMO the scent shouldn't be a problem. Why do you boil them? to sterilize them? If so keep in mind that boiling them before may cause them to break down faster in the viv or terrarium.

I bake my oak leaves when I feel like sterilizing them. This probably alters their chemistry as well but a hot air environment (baking) would seem to me to be less reactive that a hot water (boiling) environment. Just some thoughts.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Phyllobater said:


> IMO the scent shouldn't be a problem. Do you boil them to sterilize them? If so keep in mind that boiling them before may cause them to break down faster in the viv or terrarium.
> 
> I usually bake my oak leaves when I feel like sterilizing them. This probably alters their chemistry as well but a hot air environment (baking) would seem to me to be less reactive that a hot water (boiling) environment. Just some thoughts.


Actually I only bake my leaves like I said in my earlier post. I treat them all like magnolia leaves, even pin oak. Just have to be careful how long you have them in there for. I also place them in bags so that I can store them until further notice. I have been been doing this for 10+ years with my dart frogs as well as other amphibians with no problems. The scent isn't a problem as well. Damn I can't believe I forgot about the awesome qualities like, "refugia for microfauna and foraging grounds". Brownie points coming FlyAnglar18. LOL


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I think baking or boiling is an unnecessary step - ensuring the leaves are thoroughly dry before storing or placing in the viv is more than sufficient for eliminating any pathogens that may affect the frogs (i.e chytrid).


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

flyangler18 said:


> I think baking or boiling is an unnecessary step - ensuring the leaves are thoroughly dry before storing or placing in the viv is more than sufficient for eliminating any pathogens that may affect the frogs (i.e chytrid).


Actually I bake my leaves as a precautionary measure to get rid of any extra insects as we do have fire ants here and other insects that can hurt or harm my frogs. Not everywhere in the U. S. has our lovely pest but they can harm our frogs (Although I am not sure at how many or what amount. I am not willing to hurt/kill any of my frogs. And I know your thinking you be blind not to see them, but accidents do happen.). The ones introduced here is a species found in South America that was introduced to Mobile, Alabama in 1930's/40's. But I also do this like I said as a precautionary measure as well.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

The nice oval shape of the magnolia looks a lot like the leaves from tropical trees as well. I have used oak and others in the past,but it just didnt look right. I also like the flatnessof the magnolia leaves. I am currently using copper beech because my magnolia trees are just starting to leaf out. I like the shape and color of the beech leaves, but they tend to curl, which is ok, but I like the flat leaf look. I microwave my leaves for 3 minutes...no more slugs in my vivs for me. I used to just toss dry leaves in thinking "hey more microfauna" but got unwanteds like spiders as well, so now its nuking for all leaves


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

frogparty said:


> The nice oval shape of the magnolia looks a lot like the leaves from tropical trees as well. I have used oak and others in the past,but it just didnt look right. I also like the flatnessof the magnolia leaves. I am currently using copper beech because my magnolia trees are just starting to leaf out. I like the shape and color of the beech leaves, but they tend to curl, which is ok, but I like the flat leaf look. I microwave my leaves for 3 minutes...no more slugs in my vivs for me. I used to just toss dry leaves in thinking "hey more microfauna" but got unwanteds like spiders as well, so now its nuking for all leaves


I need to try that. The way I get my leaves and how I process them here is so painstakingly long. I will try this. I also don't have any issues with spiders and slugs, etc.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

frogparty said:


> The nice oval shape of the magnolia looks a lot like the leaves from tropical trees as well. I have used oak and others in the past,but it just didnt look right. I also like the flatnessof the magnolia leaves. I am currently using copper beech because my magnolia trees are just starting to leaf out. I like the shape and color of the beech leaves, but they tend to curl, which is ok, but I like the flat leaf look. I microwave my leaves for 3 minutes...no more slugs in my vivs for me. I used to just toss dry leaves in thinking "hey more microfauna" but got unwanteds like spiders as well, so now its nuking for all leaves



Nuking them is an excellent idea. If it does not kill them it will surely sterilize them.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

flyangler18 said:


> I think baking or boiling is an unnecessary step - ensuring the leaves are thoroughly dry before storing or placing in the viv is more than sufficient for eliminating any pathogens that may affect the frogs (i.e chytrid).


+1..........


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> I think baking or boiling is an unnecessary step - ensuring the leaves are thoroughly dry before storing or placing in the viv is more than sufficient for eliminating any pathogens that may affect the frogs (i.e chytrid).


Not true, sorry.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Dane said:


> Not true, sorry.


I stand corrected! 

Any chance for a citation or source so I can read up? It was my understanding that Bd was very sensitive to drying.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Cite please...


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

There are other, more useful articles out there, but this is the first I came across when I searched: http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PHTM/frogs/papers/johnson-feathers-2005.pdf. Bd can live a while on materials that are likely to be in leaf litter such as pollen and feathers. It won't last long on a clean, dry surface, but leaf litter isn't usually dirt free. I don't have any citations for it, but I would suspect that there are other pathogens that could potentially effect darts that would survive being in a dry bag of leaves when no other sanitation is attempted.


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## alluringeli (Apr 20, 2009)

I dont know why people use it so i googles it yes google lol.... I saw many pictures of the tropical forest floors and thats all you see magnolia leaves and other leaves on floor. To me it provides a hiding place for frogs and other animals. I watched a few videos on youtube and the frogs seam to love it....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Eli,

_To me_, leaf litter is esential to frog husbandry. Just some of the many uses it provides:

1. A sense of security for the frog from seeing humans staring into the viv.

2. A visual barrier from other frogs / viv mates to decrease stress.

3. A humidty microclimate. Dry on top OR a small puddle of water from a recent spray - variable. Moist underneath, or even more so with a layer of multiple leaves.

4. A Refugue for microfauna....specifically springtails and we all know how important they are especially to froglets and small frogs.

5. Prevents coco bedding and other dirt from sticking to the frogs.

6. Its visually attractive.

7. It naturally occurs in their habitat unlike heavy, pillowy mosses.

and on and on


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I am not trying to get into this battle, but like I mentioned I bake leaves because of insects, because of the way I collect my magnolia leaves. Although I mentioned that I also do it for pathogens as well, I know that are pathogens as well as parasites that do exist on leaf litter that I do not want in my tanks, but I am a very paranoid person anyway. I should be considering the amount of money all of us have placed into this hobby in our homes.  Some sites that I have been using which I found interesting enough to take these precautions were these. I am so bored on my downtime and this is what I do, which is satisfy my paranoia. LOL  Now another reason why I would boil or bake, in my case is due to pollution particles the leaves are exposed to depending on where you live whether you live in a city or country area, etc or even within or outside of the U. S. I live in Metro Atlanta area, about 20mins from downtown so I am extra careful with my leaves. Leaves I sell come from another location that I travel too and I collect a lot from. That area is in the country with not many cars or population. But I do this as all a precautionary measure rather than a real necessity when I bake. Some can hurt my frogs, but most will hurt my plants.

Pests
More on Stormwater
Leon County Extension Office
Parasites in Amphibians

More for WC Specimens...
http://www.epa.qld.gov.au/publicati..._Hygiene_protocol_for_handling_amphibians.pdf


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Eli,
> 
> _To me_, leaf litter is esential to frog husbandry. Just some of the many uses it provides:
> 
> ...


I completely agree.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Merek,

No battle here, I assure you. Baking, Nuking and boiling are all VERY good to do....it is, afterall, a matter of preference.

I use the dry method but I could see myself transitioning over to the above for the paranoia reasons alone.

The ONLY negative I see is that heating the leaf will accelerate decompositon and possibly change the colour and texture.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> Merek,
> 
> No battle here, I assure you. Baking, Nuking and boiling are all VERY good to do....it is, afterall, a matter of preference.
> 
> ...


Yup, just a preference. That is something I am trying to figure out myself though, I use more leaves than I want and I feel that I pester my frogs more by going in there replacing the leaves more often than not. It makes me nuts. This might sound stupid, but what is the simplest way to tell me the "Dry Method"?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

What I do is take the leaves and put them in a bowl of water and then nuke that for about 1:30. This way you don't over do it and you're still getting the cleaning affect.

I also don't use Magnolia anymore b/c they are WAY too big and when you cut them in half, they just don't look as attractive. I stick to Live and Water Oaks. Water Oak being the best for me. Perfect size for any size viv.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I leave (get it...leave) them out on top of my hot tub cover that faces solar south and they just get sunlight outside.

Or inside, in the winter.....just sperate and allow to dry thoroughly.


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Frogtofall said:


> What I do is take the leaves and put them in a bowl of water and then nuke that for about 1:30. This way you don't over do it and you're still getting the cleaning affect.
> 
> I also don't use Magnolia anymore b/c they are WAY too big and when you cut them in half, they just don't look as attractive. I stick to Live and Water Oaks. Water Oak being the best for me. Perfect size for any size viv.


Although I have a pin oak leave location, I have so many magnolia leaves here that I could build a bridge from GA to Africa. LOL So I use them. I don't care all about the attractiveness as long as it doesn't look to bad or terrible. I also have bigger tanks than most so they do alright. I will be downgrading soon enough though. Thanks for the advice.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I use small live oak as well as medium sized Magnolia. 

I would use amost anything as long as it looks "jungle" or tropical...

Gotta look right.......the frogs....they _know. _


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> I use small live oak as well as medium sized Magnolia.
> 
> I would use amost anything as long as it looks "jungle" or tropical...
> 
> Gotta look right.......the frogs....they _know. _


LOL That's what I used to think before my little high maintenance beauties started running my credit card bill high. Stole my car and ran off to Lowe's and Petsmart, darn little buggers.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

atlfrog said:


> LOL That's what I used to think before my little high maintenance beauties started running my credit card bill high. Stole my car and ran off to Lowe's and Petsmart, darn little buggers.


Well as long as they're not telling you to rob a bank... Mine stole my vacation fund.


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

Couldn't you just drop a leaf in periodically to simulate leaves actually falling from the tree ? 



Another thing, is there any problem besides fast decomposition for using maple ? My thought being that a few maple here and there *would* decompose a bit faster providing some more food for the springtails.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

This is a viv I put together for my Colons a couple weeks ago with the Water Oak leaves. I think these are 20ish gal cubes. They are from FCA...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the copper beech leaves I use are held on the tree in the winter after they are dead and dry, so I am not too worried about chytrid on them, and they are bone dry when I pull them off the branches, I just don't like spiders in my vivs, so I nuke to kill them. Now that my magnolia tree (deciduous not evergreen) is leafing out and the leaves are small I will collect some of these as well because I like the "flat leaf" look. Ill dry these and nuke em as well. I prefer a 1 to 2 inch long leaf myself


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Frogtofall said:


> This is a viv I put together for my Colons a couple weeks ago with the Water Oak leaves. I think these are 20ish gal cubes. They are from FCA...


Yeah, I'm definately liking the look of those live oak leaves. Much more "realistic" than the burr and white oak leaves I use.

Nice viv too Antone. Love the selaginella background.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Thanks Phyllobater. Just to clarify, those are the Water Oak leaves.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

Let's call that a typo


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Dragas said:


> Another thing, is there any problem besides fast decomposition for using maple ? My thought being that a few maple here and there *would* decompose a bit faster providing some more food for the springtails.


Your thinking is spot on! I actually use layers of maple, oak and magnolia in my leaf litter to get maximum benefits - the quicker decomp of maple feeds the microfauna, the oak lies flat as an intermediate layer and the magnolia for the refugia/foraging areas.


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