# Dead Frogs



## fls_27 (Jun 1, 2010)

I purchased frogs a little over a month ago and now they are all slowly starting to die. They usually look fine and are eating fruit flies but then I would come to check on them the next morning and they would be dead. Im not sure why this keeps happening but I think it has something to do with the temps/substrate/lighting. I currently have their tanks housed in my garage and I live in california. The garage is not heated so it dramatically changes during the day. It can be 80 in the morning but then drop to the 60s at night. There are no windows in the garage so they dont usually get light until i come home and open up the garage. I have them sitting on clay substrate with a few leaves but I am wondering if the clay is doing them harm. Its a mix of redart, lime, soil, sand and acrylic mortar fortifier. Ive been trying to struggle through this but I have to admit that im getting really frustrated. If anyone can help me or give me some advice as to what I need to do i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to read this.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

What kind of frogs, how big of a tank, how hot does it get?


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

80 in the morning? what is it getting up to during the day? sounds like it could be getting way too warm. 
do you have a false bottom? is the substrate wet or just damp?
and what about cover, do you have plants or hiding spots in there?


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

fls_27 said:


> I purchased frogs a little over a month ago and now they are all slowly starting to die. They usually look fine and are eating fruit flies but then I would come to check on them the next morning and they would be dead. Im not sure why this keeps happening but I think it has something to do with the temps/substrate/lighting. I currently have their tanks housed in my garage and I live in california. The garage is not heated so it dramatically changes during the day. It can be 80 in the morning but then drop to the 60s at night. There are no windows in the garage so they dont usually get light until i come home and open up the garage. I have them sitting on clay substrate with a few leaves but I am wondering if the clay is doing them harm. Its a mix of redart, lime, soil, sand and acrylic mortar fortifier. Ive been trying to struggle through this but I have to admit that im getting really frustrated. If anyone can help me or give me some advice as to what I need to do i would greatly appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to read this.


There are many here that can give you better and more experienced advice but here are the red flags I see (others feel free to correct me if I‘m wrong).

Your varying temps are probably one of your top issues. For the most part PDF’s comfort zone is 70 to 80 degrees (at night it can dip slightly into the upper 60's). If it’s 80 in the morning it’s probably hotter than that in the middle of the day. Then at night dropping into the low to mid 60’s is another issue. 

If you open your garage during the day to let in some sun your probably also boiling your frogs. By allowing direct sunlight on them, the viv becomes a mini-greenhouse. This is not good! It makes temps soar once again. If you want to give them light use a florescent or other aquarium lighting.

You also need to make sure your humidity stays high (I’d suggest around 83 to 90). 

I’m willing to bet that these are the main culprits to your frogs dying. But, be sure that you are supplementing vitamins as this also can cause serious problems or death.

For the sake of your animals please go here and watch all of these videos:
Richard Revis | eHow.com

This will answer many of your questions and help prevent further deaths.

First things first though. Get the frogs in a stable climate.

Best of luck.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

My advice? Get them out of the garage and into a room with temp controls. If it's 80 in the morning then it's gotta be higher than that in the hottest parts of the day. And a 20 degree temp flux is too much. Get the frogs in the house or get the frogs to someone who will.

As a side note, I'm curious to see pictures of the tanks your frogs are housed in....


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Also, the stress of too many frogs in too small of a tank will cause deaths, but all the points made so far (mainly heat) are just as likely, if not more, of the culprit, they need to immediately be in a more stable atmosphere temperature-wise, the room shouldn't be higher than about 75 since it gets hotter inside the tank.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

I also live in California, but where in California do you live? Certain areas of CA get extremely warm, so I would guess temps are the issues you are experiencing.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> I have them sitting on clay substrate with a few leaves but I am wondering if the clay is doing them harm. Its a mix of redart, lime, soil, sand and acrylic mortar fortifier.


What the heck is the above substrate?
Why are they in your garage? 
Frogs need 8 hrs on 8 hours off or so of light.
Light canopy with a timer?


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## Jasonwade02 (May 3, 2010)

I would suggest cruising this forum and reading a lot of the threads and care sheets before buying any more frogs. This way you will know exactly what the frogs require as far as temps, humidity, food and enclosure and then decide if you can meet these requirements. You can also buy a thermometer that records the temps at various time during the day to see exactly how hot it gets in the garage. If it is anything like my garage though it gets way too hot for the frogs. As stated previously, my suggestion is that you first find a room in the house that the enclosure can be in because the garage does not sound like it is working out very well, right?


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

too hot, too dark, lime?? no plants? sounds like they were lucky to live as long as they do. or they were unlucky to have suffered as long as they did.

AG


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

fls_27 said:


> . Im not sure why this keeps happening but I think it has something to do with the temps/substrate/lighting.


maybe it would be easier to say to say it has something to do with the way i did everything.


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

Gary, I realize your angry, but try to realize that some pet stores make sales of frogs and send the new frog owner home with bad info. At least give him credit for finding this forum and trying to solve his problem. 

fls 27, ya, Id get them out of the garage and into your home. 

How many frogs did you loose? 

How many frogs were in one tank? 

How big of tank?

What kind of frogs are you keeping?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Bcs TX said:


> What the heck is the above substrate?


It sounds like Brent's clay substrate recipe


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Chris,
Lime is some scary stuff, I used it to take the smell away after cleaning my horses stalls them put the shavings on top of it, burns like crazy if you get it on your skin and bad for you if inhaled. 

-Beth


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Check this post out and the one under it: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...lay-based-substrate-thread-16.html#post233981

He adds lime for calcium, I think it's time for Ed


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Bcs TX said:


> What the heck is the above substrate?
> Why are they in your garage?
> Frogs need 8 hrs on 8 hours off or so of light.
> Light canopy with a timer?



What do you do for the other 8 hours of the day?????


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

mydumname said:


> What do you do for the other 8 hours of the day?????


Just dim lights for reading and watching TV in the viv....maybe a little candle "mood" lighting.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Oops, I meant 12 on 12 off. 

Just imagining the frogs in the garage messed up my math.

-Beth


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Check this post out and the one under it: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...lay-based-substrate-thread-16.html#post233981
> 
> He adds lime for calcium, I think it's time for Ed


Lime can be used as a stabilizer in clay substrates... As long as you don't add too much lime, and worked it well into the substrate, it should be fine... 

Ed


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

Frank H said:


> Gary, I realize your angry, but try to realize that some pet stores make sales of frogs and send the new frog owner home with bad info.


frank,
first off the name is simply a moniker that was given to me by friends a long time ago over a certain incident. it is not my true nature.

my response was simply about the facts that there are a lot people who make an impulse buy on the words of others. especially on things that not your norm in most pet stores, like dart frogs, tarantulas and to a lesser degree saltwater reef tanks. 
twenty years ago there really wasn't much of an option when these situations were presented to us. unless we had friends or local clubs to lean on we were on our own. i was very fortunate in the early 80's that i had an old hippie friend who had been keeping basic reef tanks for a long time previous to this. i learned what i could and i asked a ton of questions BEFORE i took on this great responsibility. and yes i see it as a great responsibility when i am taking on an animal and i am responsible for 100% of its basic needs not just for survival but it to thrive.. a big difference which is lost on most pet stores! (and i took the same approach before i ever considered buying my first frog. i still have someone who i constantly bounce thoughts off of to this day!)
todays technologies allow us to have access to a ton of info in mere minutes from when we want it. there is no reason or excuse for the responsible pet owner not to at least take half a day, go home, do a little research and then if they fell comfortable and capable, make the proper decision. there is no excuse for impulse buying.
so do i feel bad the frogs died?absolutely.. do i feel bad for the owner? not in the least. summer in a garage in california? no lighting? lime substrate? doesn't sound like someone who should have even considered dart frogs. simple common sense should have prevented some of these glaring mistakes. maybe they should stick to goldfish.

AG


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

woa frank better steer clear...he is angry.


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## dom (Sep 23, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> woa frank better steer clear...he is angry.


no he didnt!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

angry gary said:


> my response was simply about the facts that there are a lot people who make an impulse buy on the words of others. especially on things that not your norm in most pet stores, like dart frogs, tarantulas and to a lesser degree saltwater reef tanks.
> twenty years ago there really wasn't much of an option when these situations were presented to us. unless we had friends or local clubs to lean on we were on our own. i was very fortunate in the early 80's that i had an old hippie friend who had been keeping basic reef tanks for a long time previous to this. i learned what i could and i asked a ton of questions BEFORE i took on this great responsibility. and yes i see it as a great responsibility when i am taking on an animal and i am responsible for 100% of its basic needs not just for survival but it to thrive.. a big difference which is lost on most pet stores! (and i took the same approach before i ever considered buying my first frog. i still have someone who i constantly bounce thoughts off of to this day!)
> todays technologies allow us to have access to a ton of info in mere minutes from when we want it. there is no reason or excuse for the responsible pet owner not to at least take half a day, go home, do a little research and then if they fell comfortable and capable, make the proper decision. there is no excuse for impulse buying.
> so do i feel bad the frogs died?absolutely.. do i feel bad for the owner? not in the least. summer in a garage in california? no lighting? lime substrate? doesn't sound like someone who should have even considered dart frogs. simple common sense should have prevented some of these glaring mistakes. maybe they should stick to goldfish.
> ...


Agree completely


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## fls_27 (Jun 1, 2010)

Thank you to those of you that actually had constructive comments and genuinely wanted to help. I came to this forum looking for guidance and maybe meet some people that shared some interest in frogs. One of the good things about community forums is that you find people who are willing to tell you what you are doing wrong and help you correct it. It seems like some of the members here would rather I just raise goldfish and call it quits on dart frogs. How does this help bring more people into the hobby? I almost didn’t want to respond to this thread because of all the negative comments that I received. We were all new to this at one point. Nobody gets it perfect the first time and although I admit I might have messed up a lot worse than you did it does not give you the right to put people down. Some of you guys really suck…


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

fls_27 said:


> Thank you to those of you that actually had constructive comments and genuinely wanted to help. I came to this forum looking for guidance and maybe meet some people that shared some interest in frogs. One of the good things about community forums is that you find people who are willing to tell you what you are doing wrong and help you correct it. It seems like some of the members here would rather I just raise goldfish and call it quits on dart frogs. How does this help bring more people into the hobby? I almost didn’t want to respond to this thread because of all the negative comments that I received. We were all new to this at one point. Nobody gets it perfect the first time and although I admit I might have messed up a lot worse than you did it does not give you the right to put people down. Some of you guys really suck…


No matter what, get the frogs to a stable temperature etc, make sure the temp in the tank is mid 70s max (the tanks are usually hotter than room temps are). What kinds of frogs are they, how many, in what size tank, etc. and that was Brent's clay recipe right?


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## Mikembo (Jan 26, 2009)

I wouldn't say anyone was making negative comments and puting you down......... Most people hate to see any type of animal die because the owners neglected to do some research before buying the animal.

-Mike-


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> so do i feel bad the frogs died?absolutely.. do i feel bad for the owner? not in the least. summer in a garage in california? no lighting? lime substrate? doesn't sound like someone who should have even considered dart frogs. simple common sense should have prevented some of these glaring mistakes. maybe they should stick to goldfish.


I agree AG 100%. 
If he took the time to study/read about care (PLENTY of info on this forum and other forums) instead of reading the huge substrate thread, the frogs would probably be alive. 

As far as the comments being IYO "Suck," everyone with darts was a beginner when starting in the hobby. We did our homework do yours. 
What bothers me is that some beginners who have "dead frogs" due to ignorance/bad husbandry post their frogs are dead and want to be "spoon fed."

Please do more homework before you buy anymore frogs, for their sake.

-Beth


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Wow you guys are harsh. At least he's here trying to learn. 

fls_27, have you been able to move them somewhere cooler? I think that is the first important step. Then tell us more about your frogs. What kind are they?


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

What is harsh hun?
Is there something wrong with being straight forward.
Lets "rethink this post."
Would you keep your frogs in the garage?
Did you do research before you bought your frogs?
-Beth


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Bcs TX said:


> What is harsh hun?
> Is there something wrong with being straight forward.
> Lets "rethink this post."
> Would you keep your frogs in the garage?
> ...


Agreed. Plus I think this is also a common sense issue added to research. How many animals could survive being kept in a garage during the summer months? Unless of course it'svone of those that attaches to the house, is properly insulated,windows and looks more like a storage room than a garage


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think there are ways to convey information without making someone feel like crap. Politeness, civility, manners, breeding. Call it what you like.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> I think there are ways to convey information without making someone feel like crap. Politeness, civility, manners, breeding. Call it what you like.


And...... We all did our "homework" yes? 
This thread bothers me. 
I do NOT like to read about frogs dying due to "poor husbandry." I leave from my house to drive to work at 7 am and my car temp says 80, it reaches 103-105 here in the afternoon, goodness knows what the temps are in my garage. 
Sometimes a "wake up" call is in order.
-Beth


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## Jadenkisses (Jun 9, 2010)

Yes, there are other ways. But I'm sure that those who commented are more concerned with the safety and well being of the animals, rather than the person's feelings getting hurt. I know that's how I feel. When it comes to situations like this, people need to be told when they are doing something wrong. And there is no excuse for keeping the frogs in that manner - I wouldn't keep a _dog_ in a garage in the heat! Let alone something as delicate as dart frogs. It should be common sence not to put any living thing in an uncontrolled enviornment, such as a garage.
Sorry if that makes the OP feel like crap, but the truth hurts sometimes!


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

my intention was not to make the OP feel like crap. and if they think i suck then so be it. i guess i could have been politically correct and coddled this person , but in the end they would have felt somehow vindicated for their lack of preparation. and like others have said the bottom line is about the animals we care for not the owners feelings.
we still have not seen any pics or even a description of what the "living" conditions were like. or what type of frogs. do they not know or was that not important at the time of purchase. i have worked part time off and on over the years at pet stores so i could suppliment my reef habits with wholesale prices and freebies. it never failed that the first of the month when some of the locals would get their gov't money they would show up to buy things they had no business owning. i had seen almost entire welfare checks blown on pythons and the like. my time at a lot of these shops was short lived because i would refuse to sell an animal to someone just because they had money in their pocket that was burning a hole. my theory was always that if i did not sell to them then they would wonder down the road until the next shiny object caught their eyes and they dropped everything on that. now i am not saying that is the case here but i am trying to make an analogy or a correlation,( i am not sure which it is!). i have heard many times when i asked," do you have an aquarium set up for this snake?" Response: "no i have a cardboard box though that my nintendo came in".

and as the OP says" nobody gets it perfect the first time". that is so true, but i doubt if anyone here has ever gotten it so wrong the first time. and as for this sites role in bringing new people into the hobby, i ain't so sure! it isn't my goal or i doubt anyone elses goal here. 
i see this hobby, like many others i am involved in, to have success is to have diligence, put in effort and perserverance and finally i will have reward when i have accomplished the previous three. 

AG


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Ok. Like I said before, we all have researched PDF's BEFORE buying them.
My case in point.
Keeping them in a garage?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/11865-good-threads-read-beginners.html
Info is out there, take advantage of it, buy from reputable breeders (they will answer your questions). Plenty of sponsors on this forum that will answer your questions before and after a frog purchase.
I am not "picking on you" just we "live and learn-STUDY and talk to breeders BEFORE purchase" and feel that as dart keepers respect and want to prvide the best of care for the frogs in our collection, whether it is 1-40.
These darts are "jungle jewels" to me.
-Beth


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

My words are never intended to offend. But if someone _takes_ offense to them... well... that's too bad. Personally if I were in the same situation I'd feel like so much crap for letting those animals die that nothing any board member could say could make me feel any worse. In the end anything I post in this thread isn't directed at hurting the OP's feelings... my hope is that the OP feels bad enough already. My intention is simply to ensure the safety of the next animals (I assume that, while likely an impluse buy, the purchase of the frogs was an impluse because of a love of frogs, which likely means more is in the future. Holding the OP's hand and telling the OP "you did everything you could" isn't going to help future animals).

As for the garage.... When I was 12 I set up a fort in the rafters of my parent's garage. Get away, do some reading without family to interrupt... whatever. This was early spring and it wasn't getting much hotter than 72 degrees, but the garage would build up heat and I would be sweating in 95 degree temps.... I can only imagine the temperatures in a garage in the middle of summer in California. I understand that people think exotic tropical animals and then think heat; when I first contemplated getting darts I was thinking heating pads to get the temps to 85-90 (this was before I did my research).... But even with those high target ranges I have to assume a garage would overshoot that significantly. Common sense can go a long way.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Most of the time, the advice here is very good and friendly. I found some of the replies in this thread to be a bit shocking.

He apparently tried to do some research, as evidenced by his substrate recipe straight from the Ultimate Substrate thread. In fact, he was lambasted by people for using lime, when lime is in the recipes on that thread and it's use was supported by Ed in this very thread. 

How does it benefit the frogs if the frog owner is run off rather than helped?


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

Bcs TX said:


> What is harsh hun?
> Is there something wrong with being straight forward.
> Lets "rethink this post."
> Would you keep your frogs in the garage?
> ...


That is the problem, most people can not handle straight forward answers

Well, lesson learned I guess.....Better luck in the future.


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## Steve25 (Jan 29, 2010)

PDF are very delicate. Living in the garage especially in California will have its extremes in temperature. Besides temperature the humidity/lighting/substrate/plants/aggression could have been factors also. I found some books and articles online to be very helpful in starting in this hobby. Main thing is to get information from a reputable source such as a book or topics on this forum (online websites can mislead).

--Sorry to hear what happened. Reading, or talking to members will help--


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

If a non climate controlled garage is the only place to keep an animal - ANY animal.....then I say wait until later in life, when you can keep animals inside.

It's really just that simple


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

> Most of the time, the advice here is very good and friendly. I found some of the replies in this thread to be a bit shocking.


I think sometimes people need to be shocked into taking the time to "study" intensively before they take on PDF's. Substrate is substrate (the Zilla mix works great for me). If you want to get scientific then do, but later after you gain experience, other issues like "frog husbandry" are more important. The variables in the loss of frogs is pretty bad and obvious, the OP needs to unfortunately "live and learn" before buying more frogs. 
Yes, when you lose a frog it is always tragic but you need to reevaluate what the cause was. 
Feel free to look at my other posts on this forum and DartFrogz, I am not an abusive critical person, just straight to the point. 
This thread has been irratating, I am not a big fan of someone not doing their homework (very obvious), losing frogs and posting a "dead frogs" post. 
Like what was mentioned earlier in this thread, I am concerned about the frogs, if there are any left. 
-Beth


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

Where to start.Sorry for your loss-your loss, is our loss, for those who indulge in this hobby, are truly passionate about the animals that they keep .Sometimes life has some harsh lessons.So to the OP I hope lesson learned but do do some research please.I don't think there is a sponsor on here who does not have care sheets as well as here also.Very few threads take on the tone that is being displayed here if something was not glaringly wrong.


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## crunchyfrog (Jul 17, 2010)

This probably isn't the best place for me to step in and make my first post, but people seem to be getting kinda worked up here. The OP knows enough about frogs to make a complex substrate, but commits enough glaring errors to send shivers down the spine of anyone who cares for animals. And rather than giving out any further info to help the folks trying to help him, he posts "you guys suck!"

smells like forum troll to me.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

crunchyfrog said:


> This probably isn't the best place for me to step in and make my first post, but people seem to be getting kinda worked up here. The OP knows enough about frogs to make a complex substrate, but commits enough glaring errors to send shivers down the spine of anyone who cares for animals. And rather than giving out any further info to help the folks trying to help him, he posts "you guys suck!"
> 
> smells like forum troll to me.


It's all good, crunchyfrog. 

Everyone on this thread has made good, helpful posts, either here or in other threads. I do see where everyone is coming from. 

Beth, I certainly know you as a helpful, friendly poster. I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I felt otherwise. Just something about 'this' post messed me up. I guess I'm mostly worried that if he doesn't stick around to get help, his remaining frogs are doomed. 

kumbaya, y'all


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## fls_27 (Jun 1, 2010)

I might not be responding to this thread but I have been checking out some of the other threads that some of the forum members have linked. I decided to move them to a place that has stabilized temps. The frogs seem to be a lot better now but I will have to wait a few weeks before Im certain.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Well done.

Many people on this board will be happy to help you if you need it, myself included. You are also more then welcome to pm me if it is easier. If I do not know the answer I will find someone that will.

Sally




fls_27 said:


> I might not be responding to this thread but I have been checking out some of the other threads that some of the forum members have linked. I decided to move them to a place that has stabilized temps. The frogs seem to be a lot better now but I will have to wait a few weeks before Im certain.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

fls_27 said:


> I might not be responding to this thread but I have been checking out some of the other threads that some of the forum members have linked. I decided to move them to a place that has stabilized temps. The frogs seem to be a lot better now but I will have to wait a few weeks before Im certain.


Great to hear!


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

Frogs are beautiful creatures and need to be cared for and I am glad that you have endured this thread. It shows that you really care for them. Hope you are successful this time and keep studying.


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