# Ask a local vet to do fecals.



## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

It has been my experience that even thought a local vet may not see exotics, they are willing to do a fecal when you explain what you are trying to accomplish. 

I always recommend going to your regular vet that you take your other animals to as the staff already knows you. Call ahead to make sure to come in on a time when they are not busy. I recommend showing up in person to ask if they can do the fecal so you and they know who they are talking to. 

Explain that it is for a poison dart frog, you will provide the fecal samples, and ask if they would like to see the animal. Also explain that if they cannot easily identify the parasite, you can send it to someone (Dr. Frye) for a correct identification as well as medication/dosing information. 

I have even provided a list of common parasites that they could then look up and refer to when getting a fecal for my bearded dragons. 

It is nice to be able to take a fecal sample to someone local and not have to ship it. If a parasite is found, I would send a sample to Dr. Frye for him to look at. 

Remember, all they can say is "no" so it never hurts to ask. Vet's offices on the outskirts of town have seemed to be a little more tolerant of the odd request. Showing up in person is definitely better than a phone call if you are not going to be using your regular vet. Having a vet that is at least familiar with you and your animals is more likely to help in an emergency situation.

I hope this helps someone seek out a vet for their frog.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

It wouldnt hurt to have a ready list of both common and uncommon things to be on the lookiout for that is relative to these frogs. While the may be able to do the fecals Ive had experiences where they were not up to date on all of what to look for. As for myself I have Used friends at UGA to run fecals, as well as Dr. Fryye, Dr. Wright and others.

Make sure you test your frogs while in QT before they get introduced into a viv and you risk possible contamination.


Michael


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

I don't want to bother the vets too much. I just ask that if they see anything, to let me know and I can send it to Dr. Frye. 

Besides, I don't think they would know about medications and dosing. 

I should add, it is a good idea to get a second round of fecals done 3 weeks(?) later even if the first round is negative.


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## ncc2015 (Aug 4, 2011)

I plan on getting 2 azureus tomorrow and I wanted to get fecals done on them. The vet that I have is listed on here on that page that treats poison dart frogs. From dart-den I read the post by Frye that you should do one every week for 3 weeks. And somewhere else on this forum someone said every 2 weeks. And here you also say something different. What would be the best times to get fecals done to make sure they are really testing negative?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

eldalote2 said:


> I don't want to bother the vets too much. I just ask that if they see anything, to let me know and I can send it to Dr. Frye.
> 
> Besides, I don't think they would know about medications and dosing.
> 
> I should add, it is a good idea to get a second round of fecals done 3 weeks(?) later even if the first round is negative.


See I find it a bit of waste and time to have a vet who is unsure run these tests. I always ask if they are aware of both common and uncommon amphibian parasites and other ussues and can ID them all. 

What if your vet says all is clear, do you still send Dr. Frye a sample to test? You should if your not certain your local vet is experienced with dealing with amphibians. 

As for QT a proper one would be 90 days and would require atleast 3 rounds of testing and a clean bill of health before being moved to a new clean viv. 

Ive had hundreds, maybe a thousand frogs tested and once you hear some of the crazy stuff found both in wc and cb frogs you will want to make sure the person testing your frogs is knowldgable and equipped to do it. Even if you send the fecal to a local vet and get a positive your still going to send it to Dr. Frye to look and an suggest treatment and send meds. Why not just go with the proven first?

These practices should be used for any frogs you bring in no matter who they are. Its the rest of your collection your protecting not the frogs in question. 



Michael


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

ncc2015 said:


> I plan on getting 2 azureus tomorrow and I wanted to get fecals done on them. The vet that I have is listed on here on that page that treats poison dart frogs. From dart-den I read the post by Frye that you should do one every week for 3 weeks. And somewhere else on this forum someone said every 2 weeks. And here you also say something different. What would be the best times to get fecals done to make sure they are really testing negative?


Its QT and testing that is important. Testing is whats needed first. Keep in mind that some treatments require dusting food once a week for up to 6 weeks to treat. You would still need to test after this to get results and a clean bill. YOu also should be aware that there are things like coccidia that pop up that you cant get rid of and it can mean life long treatments for the frogs. 

Test for chytrid while your at it. This can be easily transfered to other frogs and vivs due to cross contamination and bed husbandry.

Michael


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Local vet fecals are better than nothing. 

This was just a suggestion to encourage people to have a local vet in times of dire need, maybe if the amphibian vet can not respond to them that day. 

Again, just a suggestion, not saying it's better than sending fecals off, but possibly better than nothing.


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## chas79 (Oct 8, 2010)

I am a vet tech and I can tell you that most vets if they want to help they will. There is a website forum called VIN the doctor I work for uses. They can get on there and talk to doctors that see exotics and find out all the info they need. Just depends if they want to work out of their comfort zone. 

Sent from my Evo 4G using Tapatalk.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Its QT and testing that is important. Testing is whats needed first. Keep in mind that some treatments require dusting food once a week for up to 6 weeks to treat. You would still need to test after this to get results and a clean bill. YOu also should be aware that there are things like coccidia that pop up that you cant get rid of and it can mean life long treatments for the frogs.
> 
> Test for chytrid while your at it. This can be easily transfered to other frogs and vivs due to cross contamination and bed husbandry.
> 
> Michael


I want to point out that if you use a local vet you can get drugs that actually allow you to target the frog with an exact dosage instead of an estimated dosage (which is what occurs when you dust food items). This is a much more effective dosing system allows for greater safety for the frogs and also allows for a much shorter treatment period. For example while some people use dusting for six weeks, you can treat the same parasites with ivermectin and simply dose the frogs twice two weeks apart. Dusting was more popular during the period when fenbendazole was thought to be safer to use than has been documented which has resulted in a shift away from it's usage. 
Also a vet with the frog in hand to examine may actually suggest not to treat the animal if it is healthy. This has been discussed by Dr. Kevin Wright on here (this post I think http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624). 

There is also indications that some "parasites" can actually be beneficial in lower numbers like pinworms as they help break down material during digestion. 

As for coccidia, a frog that doesn't show it in the fecal is not considered clear.. the only way to be sure a frog doesn't have coccidia is to necropsy it. 

Ed


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## ncc2015 (Aug 4, 2011)

Ed said:


> I want to point out that if you use a local vet you can get drugs that actually allow you to target the frog with an exact dosage instead of an estimated dosage (which is what occurs when you dust food items). This is a much more effective dosing system allows for greater safety for the frogs and also allows for a much shorter treatment period. For example while some people use dusting for six weeks, you can treat the same parasites with ivermectin and simply dose the frogs twice two weeks apart. Dusting was more popular during the period when fenbendazole was thought to be safer to use than has been documented which has resulted in a shift away from it's usage.
> Also a vet with the frog in hand to examine may actually suggest not to treat the animal if it is healthy. This has been discussed by Dr. Kevin Wright on here (this post I think http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624).
> 
> There is also indications that some "parasites" can actually be beneficial in lower numbers like pinworms as they help break down material during digestion.
> ...


Thanks that was really informational. And I definitely agree with the other thread that you linked.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Ed how does an inexperieced local vet determine the correct dosage? This is where the idea I have to leave it to the experienced though there is nothing wrong with asking a local vet to study and and see if they are interested in training to become amphibian experienced so they can help other locals. Im all for having a local vet if there is one qualified.

Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

*I was able to find this in my old e-mail and thought this would be helpful. This was a transcript of a talk Dr. Wright gave at the National Reptile and Amphibiam Vet council meeting back in 09:*

NAVC Conference 2009
______________________________________________________________________________________________
1826
HOW I TREAT NEMATODES IN FROGS
Kevin Wright, DVM
Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital, LLC
Mesa, AZ
Nematodes are a ubiquitous presence in captive frog
collections. I advocate a discussion between the
veterinarian and the client to understand the purpose of
the frog collection and to develop a preventive health
program based on an assessment of the risk posed by
nematodes and the potential impact their presence may
have on management (eg, exchanging specimens with
other collections). A particularly thorny issue is the
presence of nematodes in frogs destined for assurance
colonies. These frogs are genetic reservoirs against
extinctions in the wild and they come in with a spectrum
of parasites that shared their natural environments. The
balance shifts in captivity for a variety of reasons, many
of which are incompletely understood. Is it the best
management choice to eliminate these parasites in
captive specimens and thereby possibly artificially select
for frogs that have immune systems that have never
encountered by these nematodes when their offspring
may one day be reintroduced into the wild and have to
face these same parasites?
In many cases, frogs appear to be perfectly healthy
despite a high number of nematode ova or larvae being
found regularly in their feces. I believe that in some
cases my prolonged rigorous anthelmintic treatments
and associated sanitation and hygiene management
may have sent frogs into a decline. Currently I do not
recommend treatment for frogs that are apparently
healthy, eating well and maintaining or gaining weight,
and producing normal feces despite the presence of
nematode ova or larvae per high power field on direct or
flotation fecal parasite exams. However, if any frogs in
the collection appear unthrifty, there are mortalities with
nematodes implicated or there are otherwise
unexplained mortalities, or direct fecal parasite exams
reveal more than 5 to10 RBCs or 1 to 5 WBCs per high
power field along with nematode ova or larvae, I do
recommend treatment.
Topical ivermectin at 4 mg/kg repeated at 7, 14, and
21 days is an easy to administer anthelmintic that is
effective on many nematodes. I have also given it by
diluting 10 mg of ivermectin into 1000 mL of water and
using it as a 60- to 120-minute shallow bath repeated at
7, 14, and 21 days and it appears to be effective despite
the insolubility of ivermectin in water. Direct topical
application or baths are useful for small frogs where
injections or oral medications are impractical. This dose
is quite high compared with the 0.2 mg/kg I recommend
for oral and injectable routes. When ivermectin needs to
be delivered to tiny frogs, consider asking a
compounding pharmacy to prepare a 0.1 mg/mL
injectable solution. Otherwise, you may orally administer
ivermectin diluted with vegetable oil or propylene glycol
to this concentration or even 0.05 mg/mL for very tiny
frogs.
Fenbendazole, at 25 to 50 mg/kg PO once a day for
3 to 5 days and repeated in 14 to 21 days, is also
effective but is more challenging to administer than
ivermectin. There has been some evidence of
leukopenias accompanying fenbendazole treatment in
reptiles but I am unaware of this being documented in
amphibians. While other drugs within this family, such as
thiabendazole and albendazole, are reported in the
literature, I have not used either in an amphibian. I will
often use ivermectin and fenbendazole concurrently.
I have little experience with pyrantel palmoate but it
appears to be an excellent choice to eliminate
nematodes that are resistant to ivermectin or
fenbendazole. A typical dose is 5 mg/kg orally (PO)
repeated in 14 to 21 days. Drontal, which includes
pyrantel palmoate and praziquantel, has been used with
the dosage figured by the amount of pyrantel palmoate
(Brad Lock, personal communication, 2008).
I used to regularly treat with levamisole at 10 mg/L to
100 mg/L as a continuous bath for 3 to 5 days in aquatic
frogs and other amphibians. There is a risk of flaccid
paralysis so it should be used with caution in unfamiliar
species. I have had no cause to use it in several years
as I rarely deal with frogs that cannot be treated in other
ways.
It is extremely important to spot clean visible feces
out of enclosures. With lush planted enclosures that
have been heavily contaminated with nematodes, a
discussion should be had about moving the frogs to
temporary quarters for treatment and an effort to reduce
the parasite load in the main enclosure. A thorough soak
of the plants and substrate with levamisole (100 mg/L)
once a week is helpful. The enclosure needs to be
thoroughly rinsed with fresh water several times. Rinse
water should be tested with modified Nessler’s reagent,
the common reagent used to detect ammonia in tropical
fish water quality test kits, as it will flocculate in the
presence of levamisole at levels as low as 10 mg/L.
I would couple any anthelmintic treatment with
regular direct fecal parasite exams to evaluate a shift in
cytology and fluctuations in nematode ova and larvae.
While there is often no correlation between reduction in
nematode ova or larvae in feces and actual reduction in
nematode numbers, I often see improvement when the
ova or larvae counts go down and the feces has less
than 5 to 10 RBC per high power field and 1 to 5 WBC
per high power field. If a frog is also recovering its
weight, having normal stool, and showing normal
behaviors, I consider the treatment a success. With
problematic enclosures, randomly collected feces should
be assessed for parasites


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Ed how does an inexperieced local vet determine the correct dosage? This is where the idea I have to leave it to the experienced though there is nothing wrong with asking a local vet to study and and see if they are interested in training to become amphibian experienced so they can help other locals. Im all for having a local vet if there is one qualified.
> 
> Michael


 
They can contact a vet at a Zoo or institution if they don't have a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, or consult with a ARAV exotic vet. It's not that difficult if you know targeted organism and the weight of the frog in question. After that it is a simple dilution and dosage.

People make a lot of fuss about an exotic vet being needed to dose the medication but that not only ignores that vets make appropriate dilutions on a routine basis (for example a tea cup toy poodle is significantly different than a adult great dane in dosage...), or a newly hatched chick and an adult double breasted 25 lb turkey *but it also ignores the plain fact that none of medications being used in reptiles or amphibians were developed with those taxa in mind*. The usage of those drugs in herps was the result of a vet going hmm this works in birds (or dogs or cats) and getting permission from the owner and trying it. If it works with little or no side effects then that vet shares that information or publishes it in a journal and more vets try it.. until it ends up codified into a text book.. Sometimes it works well a few times and then negative sideeffects start to show up like occured with fenbendazole causing the death of animals sensitive to it or those that were overdosed on it. 

Ed


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