# Any idea on this pumilio morph



## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

We got these in with a shipment of bastimentos, chir rivs, and man creeks. Clearly it is none of the above...any ideas. They are a lot smaller than the other pumilio we got in.


















-Mike


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

ooohhhhh aaaaahhhhh, sorry, i'm no help


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

look at the pics of the frogs sean has for sale here. there is a match(not sure on sex) in his pics on the classifieds section. i think he called it a christobal.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Aaron-

We have Cristobals and I do not belive this frog to be one...I checked Seans frog and it isnt really too close to that (but the blue in the legs is similiar).

Seans:










This is a pretty small pumilio..we got 2 in and I'm keeping my fingers crossed they are a pair.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I'm not too sure what you got there, but you do have yourself a pretty rare frog I am sure as I have never seen any with that coloration before. Dare I even start the debate that this may be a new morph of pumilio not named so far??


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Is it for sale??? lol 

Anyway, it may just be a variation in one of the mentioned morphs populations, or you may have something quite unique> Who is to say with pumilio anyway, they are so freaking weird when it comes to what is this and who is that. I would recommend you send a few pics over to Kyle Summers, he may be able to help you pinpoint atleast where it may have come from.

Ed Parker


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

I think it kinda looks like a washed out man creek. It has the "granular" looking pattern on the legs like a lot of the man creeks do. It has a very unique color though, very pretty frog. 

Just my 2 cents, hopefully it will turn out to be something grand!


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Much smaller than any man creek we have ever brought in. I have someone that said they have seen this local before when in panama...i'm waiting on pics


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Whoops, I guess I overlooked the small part. Maybe they are something special.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

looks like some of the pics i've seen of the "green and orange" morph. Which is a smaller morph of pum.

here is one....
http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... alling.jpg

I've ran across other pics that looked similar also but cant remember where....

Anyways nice lil frog whatever it is...hopefully we'll get more info on them if more come in.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Looks like a juvie Man Creek. I've had several morph with similiar coloration. But who knows ... :?


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Correct me if I am wrong here and am colorblind, but aren't the pics he posted of a very gold colored body with mint/aqua green legs?? If someone can show me a pic of a Man Creek with a gold body and green legs I would love to see it as i have never even heard of such a thing or anything in Man Creeks but red and orange. If that doesn't look gold to everyone else, please correct me, but I don't think this is like any Man Creek I have ever seen.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Nah definitely not a Man Creek. Ryan and I have seen plenty of the imports and its not even close. We work with man creeks and have had some offspring that are duller but these are a brite gold with very vivid blue legs. It's a smaller pumilio but not as small as the orange and green. We have had them too and there is a size difference. I will check with Kyle and see what he thinks. I guess we will have to see.

Mike


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ya, i guess it is gold. i thought it to be a trick of the light and just saw the metallic part and blue legs. i`ll let you know if i ever see anything that compares. before that i`ll buy it for you.  any idea on sex?
could be these guys are from a basti type population. i have one no spot basti comin out of a small spot pair. we`ll just have to breed like individuals and document what comes out and we should be able to figure some of them out. i did see a gold colored individual in sndf`s one shipment. it had a background color of gold and some brown patterning over it though. the legs were kinda tucked under the leaf in the photo. i`d shoot marcus a pic and let him know what your loooking for.
that is one awesome looking frog though. good luck.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Have you tried talking to SNDF about it? They know a lot of what's going on at the farm and would have better info than most of us would be able to guess. I'm not sure how asking Kyle to ID them for you would help much as we really wouldn't have a clue if they are just odd mixes from the farm or animals from actual locales...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I hate to crash this party but if these were farmed frogs, have you considered the possibility of a hybrid? That many morphs in one facility is bound to wind up with frogs hopping the fence. That said, I don't know what it is but I thought this should be tossed into the mix as a possibility.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

I believe I saw a similar frog win the Dendroboard Photo Contest last year sometime .

Todd


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Just Checked the contest Photos,

Very Close indeed. only Diff that I can see is the slight difference in Leg coloration.




http://www.dendroboard.com/photocontest/


Todd


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Thanks for the post. The frog is much more a gold than the one in the link and almost metalic. We actually have a picture of this frog from a European poster...but no location on where the picture was taken. I have one person who has visited Panama that has come over and said they have seen that frog before. We contacted Marcus and Valentina and are waiting to hear back. I understand that farm breeding could present some mixed morphs but I do not believe this is the case with this frog. I would prefer not to have the post I made turned into a debate over the farms and mixed morphs, just was curious what people thought. For now I would like to wait and hear back from a few people.

All the best,

Mike


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

they probably just didnt have enough in the farms for quotas and sent a couple natives out collecting to make up the numbers. that could be why we have a bunch of odds and ends.
i also heard a story of some people, years ago, who collected a bunch of pumilio from around, i think it was panama, getting caught by the local police and all those pumilio got released right near the hostile? they were in. i think he said there were 3 or 4 morphs and they were all released in the same spot. i was kinda new to darts back then.
stories like that kinda make me wonder. 
this was years ago and i cant even remember the jobbers name. i remember what he looked like but he ripped off some people and was out of the business as i was getting in. i wish i could remember where he was.
on another note, natural mixing of morphs, does it ever occur? what are the chances of morph a getting washed downstream when the tree its in gets washed out in a flood and safely landing on the opposite bank 3-4 miles downstream where morph b occurs. whats the deal w/ the ecuado de varagus? spelling is way off. there are all red all blue and every mix of % color in between. is it possible someone introduced bri bri and darklands to the same island?


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

I think Aaron Nailed a very great point there with the natural mixing of Morphs. I dont think Pumilio are unlike The Sipaliwini Complex.
Their borders overlap and in many cases multiple morphs inhabit the same locality.



Todd


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> whats the deal w/ the ecuado de varagus? spelling is way off. there are all red all blue and every mix of % color in between. is it possible someone introduced bri bri and darklands to the same island?


I'd have to say that's a definate no, as bribri are Costa Rican and Darklands are Panamanian. BriBri are also a good deal larger than darklands so it would be the equivalent of breeding a pug with a great dane .

Jordan


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

well you know what i mean. an all red form of pumilio w/ an all blue form from near that area. why would a pumilio evolve to be either all blue all red or a mix of the 2.
it would not be the same as a great dane and a pug. their ways of having sex, so to speak, is a little different than darts. i`m sure a dwarf female would breed w/ a surinam cobalt or larger.


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

It is my understanding that Escuado de Varagues are being reclassified and will no longer be considered a pumilio morph. Because of this, they are most certainly not a hybrid of any other pumilio. They are also much smaller than both Bri Bri & Darklands pumilio. 

Although I have no evidence to back this up, I do believe that the color variation of red backs w/blue bellies & legs, within the populations of Escuados, is due to predominately blue frogs reproducing with predominately red frogs.

Regards,
Blake


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## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

*wow...*

Not sure what it is but when you are ready to sell them let me know!!!!



Bill


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Funny, I was just on the phone talking to rich frye about panama pumilio populations lol.

Basic deal is this - don't assume they are just out collecting frogs at random or doing something illegal. Unless you have actual evidence of this going on, this is just talking bad about them and spreading false information, and this not supported on the board.

Now to clear some stuff up on populations... you're assuming the populations in question tend to be very monotypic, this is NOT true of panama pumilio, and I'd hazard to theorize this is especially not the case with lowland morphs. Yes, we see a good amount of variation in the morphs being brought in by the panama farm, but this does not exactly mean they hybridized on their farms or collected random animals to fill quota.

This is purely from my understanding of biogeography - Panama has an interesting geologic history... when sea levels were higher than they are now, most of panama was islands much like the bocas del toro phenomenon (look at how many different colors, patterns, and sizes there are just in those islands!). Sea levels lower and now the "island" populations have more room to spread out... lowland populations are basically the case of the island populations spreading out and hybridizing naturally... which in my theory means these populations probibly have rediculous levels of variations in them due to the genetics of the populations recombining. 

Yes there are spots in Panama with very monotypic frogs, look at darklands. There are also probibly populations that have animals that look almost nothing like each other, and could be picked up a few feet from each other - which may be why we see so much variation in the Rio Brancos. Look at the morph we call "bastimentos" - the background color of the frogs vary from blood red, orange, white, green, yellow... and thats a pretty "stable" island population (and there is more than one definate morph on that island!).

It is perfectly possible to have the variation seen in the Escudos frogs... solid blue to solid red and every thing in between (bastimentos have even more color variation in their morph!). Its not a case of multiple morphs in the same place, or two morphs mixing, but rather of a stable morph that just had a lot of variation. We keep thinking of "morphs" having little variation when especially in panamanian pumilio the morphs could have massive amounts of variation within a single morph.

As for the original frog in question I still have no clue lol. I'd be inclined to put it somewhere along the lines of a chiriqui river... but thats about it. If you emailed SNDF, you'll be lucky to get a response, they get way to many emails. Call them and talk to them, its really the only way to get stuff done with them lol. They prefer people don't email them.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

so all these pumilio are coming in from one farm? i did not know that. 
of course my statement about them sending the natives out to make quota was just conjecture. just trying to explain some of these odds and ends that dont really fit in to the other morphs. 
the geological perspective makes sense.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

bwood1979 said:


> It is my understanding that Escuado de Varagues are being reclassified and will no longer be considered a pumilio morph. Because of this, they are most certainly not a hybrid of any other pumilio. They are also much smaller than both Bri Bri & Darklands pumilio.
> 
> Although I have no evidence to back this up, I do believe that the color variation of red backs w/blue bellies & legs, within the populations of Escuados, is due to predominately blue frogs reproducing with predominately red frogs.
> 
> ...


What are they being reclassified as? Another species?

And to Corey: Not even Darklands are all the same. They come in red and red/blue variations just like Escudos (though we only seem to have the blue ones in the hobby).


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Are you sure about the darklands? All the frogs I have ever seen, both hobby and research animals, have been shades of blue, I have not heard of them having red...


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Kevin Hoff, who went there, has plenty of photos of them in varying blends of red and blue.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

when u say "red"...do you mean a dark reddish black rust color...or red red? cuz many of the darks do have rusty backs kinda.


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## Dendromad (Jul 4, 2006)

looks like a very nice gold ''Cayo de aqua' to me or maybe 'isla popa' ! see: http://www.tropical-experience.nl/pumil ... &submenu=2 Colourmorphs 17 & 18! Looks closer to 'Cayo de aqua' as lacks the greeny blue along flanks!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Going by the fact that he said "small", it would be more in the lines of Pope Island - what those pics don't show you is size. Cayos, while a hop, skip, and a jump across a channel, are incredibly larger than the tiny little popes. Popes also can range into a more yellowish, to as the morph guide shows, orange. Can we get a belly shot of the frog in question?

Here are some pics that might shed some light, these are Pope Island pumilio (with definate locality data, no doubts here) that might help out?

Yellowish Pope - Pope Belly 
[photos from Frye Brothers' Frogs]


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## Dendromad (Jul 4, 2006)

just legs in pic are more blue than isla pope morph, and no blue along flanks either as in isla pope?!


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

One thing I have only seen mentioned here is, if these frogs are indeed farm raised, how come we are getting in so many varied morphs, and only as a few individuals?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I think you're actually seeing variation within morphs rather than lots of individual morphs. The frogs in question may be variations of chiriqui rivers - a couple of oddballs. The morphs the farm seems to be working with are highly variable to begin with - more so than we typically see in our morphs in the hobby.

The main frogs we've gotten from the farm is chiriqui river, man creeks, bastimentos, rio brancos, and christobals (I'm still iffy on if some of the frogs were actually cayos de aquas or not). Within those morphs, there is a decent amount of variation, especially in the bastimentos and rio brancos. Some individuals of the morphs may look very similar to other morphs... such as some rio brancos coming in and being IDed as rambala... but why would only two rambala come in a large shipment? Because they are just variations of rio branco and these two animals happened to look like rambalas.

As for the question frog, I'm still unsure. I showed pics of known pope islands since they were mentioned before, its possible for pope's to have more yellow/gold coloration (I just picked out a pic of a known pope that had some of the metallic gold to it, tho not as much as the pictured frogs), not all popes have blue flanks, and they can have much more blue in the leg - just look at the green individual on tropical-experience. Or, these animals are not from any of these populations, and are either oddballs of morphs, or something new. 

I again recomend Mike calling SNDF and talking to them about what this frog could be. Marcus has been down there, and would be the most likely to know.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Corey-

Thanks for the pics of the Pope Islands. Here's what I believe (Ryan called Marcus but we haven’t heard back from him). This is just our opinion and by no means is what I am saying concrete. Ryan and I have brought in many shipments of the pumilio. While many of the frogs within the shipment are the same (bastimentos, man creeks??, chir rivs) about 6-8 months back we started getting a much larger green frog with a very vivid yellow belly (nothing like our chir rivers). I haven't labled them as Cayos (rather yellow bellies and left it up to the purchaser) but we do believe them to be different than the chir rivs (not a variation). I have had the chance to look at Cayos brought in long before these shipments and can tell you our frogs are pretty close to a match to those. As far as the frogs I pictured...they are not nearly as large as the Cayos (as Corey stated) and very much the size and granulation of Pope Island. The thing I find most problematic is most of the Pope Islands I have ever seen are much darker than these guys (the gold is a very bold and the blue is very vivid). I know of a few other shipments coming out of Panama that contained some very different pumilio morphs (I wont name who or what types) but I can be pretty sure that there are a few other types coming in than just the man creeks, bastimentos, rios, cristobals, and chir rivs. This is just a question and not a dig but IF these frogs are truly "farm raised" why have juvies been so incredibly scarce in almost every shipment (it wouldn’t make sense for these farms to be selling off adult breeding frogs and most all our bastimentos shipment are HEAVILY male skewed). When you look at other farming projects (with chameleons and frogs) the age of most of those animals being sold is not at sexual maturity (you sell some of the juvies to make a profit and keep some to grow into breeders to produce more offsping). Just a thought. In the mean time, thanks to all the posts (Corey I think your pretty close with the Pope guess..that is what we had thought but who knows...Ill wait to hear from Marcus :wink: ).

All the best,

Mike


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Just keep calling him lol, eventually you'll get him. Leave a messege... he may remember to get back to you.... they get so many calls and emails that they spend hours taking care of them. Don't take offense, they are popular :roll: 

I was basically told these farms had been around a number of years before they were able to export pumilio (look how many years auratus went out before them). Assuming these frogs have been sitting there all these years, you could have multiple generations of adults in the greenhouses. Also, adults are easier to catch! Thats at least what I believe has been going on. And the way this project is run... do you really think they are thinking long term? Maybe they are cleaning out their greenhouses to a certain population level (like what were initially put in there) and give them another 5-10 years, we'd probibly want them again, and their greenhouse would be full of them again...

The basitmentos CB, or WC populations, are heavily male skewed, I don't think that proves anything but that the bastimentos population is genetically skewed towards male (Cr. azureventris has a similar phenomenon).

It wouldn't suprise me that they started shipping another greenhouse of frogs to us and didn't tell us... we rarely know what we'll get until we open the box anyways :roll: Maybe they were just thinking... oh well, they still want green frogs... here are some more green frogs? Its already been shown we care more about where in panama they came from than the people sending them to us...


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Corey-

Unfortunately to these exporters green is green :? I do think, in any event, that either collected in earlier years or bred and raised in the farm that they did open a greenhouse of another green frog other than chir rivs. There has been so much debate over the practices and procedures of these farms than I think it tough to speculate. I do agree with you on the bastimentos and its only speculation (until the farms practices a publicized (and I'm not sure they will be) it will be rough to say for sure how the farm works and what the practices are). I still have a hard time believing that there are few younger frogs because they are harder to catch, but who knows. Anyway I know Marcus is very busy and I think they are at a show this weekend..I'm in no rush the frogs aren’t going anywhere 

-Mike


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

the lack of young individuals could be from the fact that, at least the man creeks, can be sexually mature at 4-5 months old and be calling at 3. ive already got good eggs from a man creek pair that is under 5 months old.


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