# Probable female vanzo?



## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

Hello,
So I've been trying to pair up my vanzos for over a year and have this frog that has yet to call even when separated for an extended period of time and I believe/HOPE to be a female. Any thoughts opinions would be really appreciated. I'm going to post a picture of her and then some of my proven males. I could only get one of her because she's so shy, sorry about that.

Thanks

Probable Female









Males


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## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

Looks like my female, does she swell up with eggs from time to time? Every once in a while mine looks like a marble.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Try playing a recording of a male calling. I had a suspected female prove himself to be a male within 1 minute of playing a recording.


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

She swells a bit but not to the size of a marble. Just a tiny bit more plump then my feminine male but nothing that really sticks out. I've separated her for awhile and all the others have started calling and 2 of them are siblings.


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

Thanks Doug, I've followed all your advice as well as others on playing recordings, separation, spraying heavily. Her brothers who are the exact same age are calling now and all are right around a year. So if it is a male maybe its still too young or too shy to call? But like I said I have 4 males that call non stop and this is the only one to not call yet even being separated which I figured would help bold it up some.

Thanks for the reply

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Pumilo said:


> Try playing a recording of a male calling. I had a suspected female prove himself to be a male within 1 minute of playing a recording.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I've heard of situations where submissive males never called until the dominant male was completely out of the equation. It could be possible that the fact that there are several other more dominant males is exacerbating the situation.

When you separated it, where did you put it? Was it out of the tank but still within earshot of the others?

As for the picture you provided, it doesn't exactly scream female to me... Looks like one of my males when they have been well fed.


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

lol can you see why I'm confused. I don't know if it's just me but from what I've seen, the females and males are so so similar in size compared to other thumbs. A lot of people say go by their shapes but most of my males look like plump females and I just don't think I'd be able to tell unless she was definitely filled with eggs if it even is a her.

The tank I had them in was a fairly heavy top opening 26 gallon. So when they do call it's very muted. I placed the unknown in another tank across the room and I figured between the two tanks that there would be no issue. Maybe you can fill me in on how well their calls can travel because I am certainly oblivious to that. Would even a very very very muted call keep it quiet if it were a submissive male?

I feel like it's certainly a little bigger then my males who are quite plump but even then it's just way to close for me to tell. Could it still be too young/not ready to breed even at a year old because I know it's best to wait 16-18 months from the advice of Chris.

Thanks for the help



carola1155 said:


> I've heard of situations where submissive males never called until the dominant male was completely out of the equation. It could be possible that the fact that there are several other more dominant males is exacerbating the situation.
> 
> When you separated it, where did you put it? Was it out of the tank but still within earshot of the others?
> 
> As for the picture you provided, it doesn't exactly scream female to me... Looks like one of my males when they have been well fed.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

My vanzos are all fat. I honestly cant tell which is the male/female until I see calling. My vanzo's started giving me eggs right around 6 months old, though I had soem problems with viable eggs at first. My males started calling at just 4-5 months old. I have a group of 3.3 (from what I can tell), and my two more submissive males call softer, not as often. I removed the dominant male for a short period, and sure enough the next in line stepped up and was more "assertive" and loud in his call within a couple weeks.


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

This is what happened with me as well. 2 out of 4 are siblings of this one and they are all calling. I've separated them as you did and the next in line would call and then I'd separate again. This one just has never called and I just have no idea anymore. You'd think with buying 5 frogs you'd get at least one female out of the bunch but I just have no idea with this one.



pdfCrazy said:


> My vanzos are all fat. I honestly cant tell which is the male/female until I see calling. My vanzo's started giving me eggs right around 6 months old, though I had soem problems with viable eggs at first. My males started calling at just 4-5 months old. I have a group of 3.3 (from what I can tell), and my two more submissive males call softer, not as often. I removed the dominant male for a short period, and sure enough the next in line stepped up and was more "assertive" and loud in his call within a couple weeks.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Nope, I set up 4 different thumbnail species in last year with 3-5 starter froglets and ended up with all a single sex of each.....the odds say it shouldnt have played out like that, but it does sometimes. I've got 2 vanzo froglets avaiable right now................pm me if your interested in adding to your group.


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

I just think it's crazy how they used to be so female heavy in the past and now they are so male heavy it's ridiculous. Thanks though



pdfCrazy said:


> Nope, I set up 4 different thumbnail species in last year with 3-5 starter froglets and ended up with all a single sex of each.....the odds say it shouldnt have played out like that, but it does sometimes. I've got 2 vanzo froglets avaiable right now................pm me if your interested in adding to your group.


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