# Silicone Question???



## dtown (Jan 5, 2011)

I have been searching for the right silicone to use and it is a little bit confusing!?!?! I need a silicone that can be in water 100% of the time. Do I use DAP, GE silicon I or II, ??? Not sure on which one to use, could someone please help straighten me out?? Thank You!


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

You can go to the pet store and get a tube of aquarium silicone. Don't know how much you need but if you need a lot, that can get expensive. I like to use DAP 100% silicone.


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## packer43064 (Nov 30, 2010)

GE 1 Window and Door. The GE 2 has a bioseal which most don't recommend for fish or in your case frogs that would be in the water. Check out MFK (monsterfishkeepers.com) if you want, everyone uses it there to re-silicone tanks that leak or even building tanks. Same username on here is on there.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Agreed, if it's constantly under water, aquarium silicone is best and strongest. GE silicone 1 and dap are both safe for fish and frogs. So if I am resealing an aquarium, to be completely filled with water, I would use an aquarium silicone. For a Viv with only a couple of inches of water, I use GE silicone 1.
Doug


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## gator (Dec 31, 2010)

GE Silicone I window and door *without* the Bioseal. AFAIK with GE Silicone II they added the anti mold and fungus inhibitors to both window and door and kitchen and bath. The other difference between the two is that Silicone I uses Acetic acid (vinegar) as the curing agent and Silicone II uses Ammonia. 100% Silicone is 100% silicone I used the GE silicone I on my DIY 600 G tank over 2 years ago and its still holding fine with absolutely no problems at all. The so called "aquarium" silicone sold in the pet stores is made by Dow Corning for All-Glass.


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## JaysPDF (Dec 29, 2010)

DAP silicone is cheaper usually if you can find it. I can pick it up for about 3.60 at Menards. GE Silicone I is a little over 5 bucks at The Home Depot. I want to say that the DAP silicone has a stronger odor to it in my experience. Regardless, silicone still smells.  Make sure it says 100% silicone. Don't substitute for anything that looks like it might work just because its cheaper. If you read the ingredients, other sealants have nasty stuff in them like formaldehyde.


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## dtown (Jan 5, 2011)

Thank you everyone, extremely helpful!! I can't wait to get home tonight to continue construction on my viv I will post pics soon (I'm really happy with the way this one is coming along


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Even "100%" silicone can have other additives...ironically. Also there has been a lot of talk about ge silicone 1 vs 2, dap, all-glass's silicone etc..etc... Very few facts and hard information from the manufactures. I believe I've heard that ge 1 has in fact always had bio-seal in it...as has 2, they just started actually advertising it for the first time years ago. I've heard its just the 2 that has always had it..etc..etc... lots of conflicting information. 

Basically though I have never heard of one definitive case where GE silicone 2 can be directly blamed for the death of any animals, nor any real evidence to support it is even much of a risk. Most of the peoples opinions/fears seem to be based on unsupported assumptions and 2nd/3rd hand knowledge(if you can even call it that). Basically you have a lot of people talking out their butts with no real clue  I've used both 1 and 2 and all glass in my tanks, probably dap once or twice too... never had a problem with any of them except 1 or 2 batches of old silicone that failed to cure properly but thats a different issue. Frankly I use ge 2 all the time and I'm not worried. 

I would encourage anyone worried about it to search google for "bioseal and aquarium" or something like that and read through the tons of topics from many forums that come up and make your own decision.
I did a little more searching, and maybe it is already been posted but here is an old DB thread, where Ed raises some of the more valid points I've seen calling bio-seal products into question...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal-9.html

I believe there are silicone products labeled "food safe", and those would probably be the safest. I think ge has stopped labeling or never did label many of their products aquarium safe. My guess is this is probably more a of liability issue in case a seal fails and dumps 200 gallons of water onto someone living room floor then it is a concern over the chemicals being unsafe, but who knows that may be part of it too  Lots of people seem to be using GE2 though with no noticeable issues.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dave, I've been over that thread, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html many times. I've read every word in it at least twice. The problem with GE silicone 2 is the organotins in it. You would not expect the problem to arise with the frogs currently in it. Any possible problems that may surface would be with egg failures and/or Spindly Leg Syndrome. You mention that Ed raises some valid points so I'd like to cut and paste a couple of his posts.
*Ed*--_"And that is why you need to look on the MSDS..for each of the products. It is required by law that any potentially dangerous chemicals or reactions have to be listed on the MSDS."_ 
*Ed*--_"On looking up the MSDS I was unable to locate a MSDS for GE I that contained the dibutyltin acetate while the MSDS for GE silicone II did contain the dibutyltin acetate.
Organotins used in polymerization materials have also been shown to have a good ability to migrate see further in http://www.ehponline.org/members/1973/004/04007.PDF and have been shown once they migrate to potentially be a source of toxicity"_
*Another Dendro member*--_"I'm undecided on this one, but I'm starting to reconsider which brand of silicone I'm going to use for the viv I'm building. Would you use GE II, Ed?"_
*Ed*--_"Well since you asked my opinion.. I have never used it in any set ups at work or at home. Originally since I wasn't sure what was in the material.. now since I have a better idea.. no.
It does make me wonder if this could be one of the intermittant causes of SLS we see in some frogs."_

Please feel free to check the thread Dave referenced, I have not changed any of Eds wording...just selected a few of the more pertinent comments. So is my knowledge 2nd hand? Yes, I am borrowing Ed's research. I choose to believe that I am not one of _"a lot of people talking out their butts with no real clue"_. I have spent hours researching the silicones I choose to use and feel comfortable saying that GE Silicone 2 is NOT the best choice if you are going to consider breeding at some time.
Doug


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Dave, I've been over that thread, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35720-bio-seal.html many times. I've read every word in it at least twice. The problem with GE silicone 2 is the organotins in it. You would not expect the problem to arise with the frogs currently in it. Any possible problems that may surface would be with egg failures and/or Spindly Leg Syndrome. You mention that Ed raises some valid points so I'd like to cut and paste a couple of his posts.
> *Ed*--_"And that is why you need to look on the MSDS..for each of the products. It is required by law that any potentially dangerous chemicals or reactions have to be listed on the MSDS."_
> *Ed*--_"On looking up the MSDS I was unable to locate a MSDS for GE I that contained the dibutyltin acetate while the MSDS for GE silicone II did contain the dibutyltin acetate.
> Organotins used in polymerization materials have also been shown to have a good ability to migrate see further in http://www.ehponline.org/members/1973/004/04007.PDF and have been shown once they migrate to potentially be a source of toxicity"_
> ...


In my judgment (if that matters to anyone) you and Ed are fine...That was just a gut reaction to viewing several similar threads on many forums a long time ago, then reviewing them again before I posted. All these people saying stuff with no sources even quotes from knowledgeable members backing their opinions/assumptions up.

It was kinda like when you look on yahoo answers and these people answer questions and they either clearly have no idea what they are talking about or at least don't bother to cite any sources, or at least make it fairly obvious they are just stating an opinion. They just say "no you can't"..."or that will kill the animal"...or "nope thats illegal if you don't have a permit" like its a fact or the gospel truth. I had to correct several people answering posts on Fennec fox's there because people were saying they were either illegal in Oklahoma or needed a permit, which isn't the case unless perhaps you are breeding them or in a few certain cities/counties with special ordinances. Though to be fair even some of the agencies don't seem to really know and there are some sources which state they require a permit or are illegal or at least seem to imply it, but I eventually found an official state legislature source that listed animals that were exempt from permits, including the Fennec fox. 

Anyways, so basically I had a moment of weakness and let some of my frustrations show regarding how some people respond to questions sometimes. I apologize  And hell I'm probably guilty of it too on occasion


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

SPEND THE MONEY FOR AQUARIUM SILICONE! I Had some tad losses because of using 100% silicone. Check glasscages.com for cheap aquarium sealant ($6 a big tube)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JeremyHuff said:


> SPEND THE MONEY FOR AQUARIUM SILICONE! I Had some tad losses because of using 100% silicone. Check glasscages.com for cheap aquarium sealant ($6 a big tube)


First, I'm not saying it isn't possible, but what leads you to believe the Tad losses were because of the silicone you used? Making your statement and leaving it at that is akin to saying "USE ONLY AQUARIUM APPROVED GLASS! I had some tad losses because of using regular window glass...". Granted there is something more likely to be inherently wrong with the silicone type then the glass type but still my point is, given just what you've said so far there is no reason to jump to that assumption. Tads die...it happens, I don't think anyone here has a 100% success rate even getting ALL of them to last a couple weeks let alone all morph out. Ok some may get them all to last a week or 2 especially if you haven't been at it long as you may get lucky initially and have no losses, but I doubt anyone has 100% survival till morph time thats been doing this for years.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Should have been more specific. I use the hardware drawer cabinets with 60 drawers per unit (Snap On from Kmart). Each drawer has a hole in it, so you need to plug it with silicone. I did 3 of these cabinets with a marine sealant but ran out for the forth cabinet. I used 100% silicone from walmart for the fourth. Overnight I lost 20+ tads in the 4th cabinet and none in the others Fortunately it was the fourth cabinet and wasn't full plus I caught it quickly and was able to save some with immediate water changes. I had to peel all the silicone off and bought aquarium sealant to repair and no problems since. I am 100% positive this was silicone related issue. I waited the same length of time for curing, so there is a chance it didn't cure as quick as the other, but there was no odor and I will never try it again.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JeremyHuff said:


> Should have been more specific. I use the hardware drawer cabinets with 60 drawers per unit (Snap On from Kmart). Each drawer has a hole in it, so you need to plug it with silicone. I did 3 of these cabinets with a marine sealant but ran out for the forth cabinet. I used 100% silicone from walmart for the fourth. Overnight I lost 20+ tads in the 4th cabinet and none in the others Fortunately it was the fourth cabinet and wasn't full plus I caught it quickly and was able to save some with immediate water changes. I had to peel all the silicone off and bought aquarium sealant to repair and no problems since. I am 100% positive this was silicone related issue. I waited the same length of time for curing, so there is a chance it didn't cure as quick as the other, but there was no odor and I will never try it again.


Ok thats thats more like it, thanks  That kind of info is more useful IMO, and I appreciate you taking the time to go into more detail. So to me yes, that makes it being a silicone issue way more likely. Could be that batch was bad and/or not fully cured. Could be it in fact was the bio-seal (If walmart brand has an equivalent substance in it) or some other chemical component that would be dangerous even if the product did cure properly. Could be the walmart brand just needed longer to cure fully and it didn't get the time needed. In theory it could still be coincidence but I'll grant that sounds pretty dang unlikely. 

I've been using the wal-mart silicone lately and have yet to see any problems. Cured fine, seems to hold fine, no animal issues yet...but also I haven't attempted to raise tads in water with that silicone present so I can't speak to that.

I get the impression these deaths occurred relatively quickly and the Tads were added to the water relatively soon after the product was used and thought to be cured, correct? If that is the case I personally would lean towards it likely being an issue with the curing. It seems to me that if the product is so toxic that it could cause that much damage that quickly even when properly cured, we'd likely be hearing more stories like this...but of course that is not definitive proof one way or the other. Heck there may be ton's of stories like that and I've just missed them somehow, but anyways the extra information you've given now gives me more ways to evaluate my feelings on the topic, etc..etc.. I have seen silicone I used to fix a broken lid on on a ff culture kill all the flies when I added them before letting it fully cure (It had partially cured, enough to form a non-sticky surface). I Have also had a bad batch of silicone that just would not cure, even after weeks. I tested some outside the tank just to make sure it wasn't some kind of humidity or material issue...still wouldn't cure. So that would be the thinking I would lean towards but still totally acknowledge the possibility that it could be a chemical in the silicone that would cause problems even if the product was fully cured. So I am reconsidering my future use of wal-mart brand silicone


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

I have used the walmart silicone for attaching glass to verts with no problem. I just think if you need to be submerged, spent the extra couple bucks on something tried and true for many many years.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JeremyHuff said:


> I have used the walmart silicone for attaching glass to verts with no problem. I just think if you need to be submerged, spent the extra couple bucks on something tried and true for many many years.


Ya I'll likely avoid it for submerged applications now, just to be safe. Thanks again for the info


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## stalwartbh (Dec 22, 2010)

Great...just great! I resealed the bottom of my exo-terra 18x18x24 with GE silicone II before reading this post. I had read somewhere it might be a good idea to go ahead and put down more sealant on the exo-terras because they are not specifically made to hold water and I thought I had read that people used GE II. I do have circulating water through the viv. So I guess I will have to get another tank or redo this one before I think about breeding anything. Oh well, I wasn't really thinking I would have much success breeding any ways. I have kept different fish for years and never had much success breeding them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> In my judgment (if that matters to anyone) you and Ed are fine...That was just a gut reaction to viewing several similar threads on many forums a long time ago, then reviewing them again before I posted. All these people saying stuff with no sources even quotes from knowledgeable members backing their opinions/assumptions up.
> 
> It was kinda like when you look on yahoo answers and these people answer questions and they either clearly have no idea what they are talking about or at least don't bother to cite any sources, or at least make it fairly obvious they are just stating an opinion. They just say "no you can't"..."or that will kill the animal"...or "nope thats illegal if you don't have a permit" like its a fact or the gospel truth. I had to correct several people answering posts on Fennec fox's there because people were saying they were either illegal in Oklahoma or needed a permit, which isn't the case unless perhaps you are breeding them or in a few certain cities/counties with special ordinances. Though to be fair even some of the agencies don't seem to really know and there are some sources which state they require a permit or are illegal or at least seem to imply it, but I eventually found an official state legislature source that listed animals that were exempt from permits, including the Fennec fox.
> 
> Anyways, so basically I had a moment of weakness and let some of my frustrations show regarding how some people respond to questions sometimes. I apologize  And hell I'm probably guilty of it too on occasion


Not a problem, Dave. I know more than a few times, I'll fire off an answer without "showing my work". 
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JeremyHuff said:


> I waited the same length of time for curing, so there is a chance it didn't cure as quick as the other, but there was no odor and I will never try it again.


Without knowing complete information here, I'm going to hazard a guess agreeing with Dave. I think it may have been a curing issue. Some brands will cure faster than others. Under the best of conditions, Silicone takes 24 hours to cure nad this refers to a 1/8" bead. Personally, I try to give any silicone twice the cure time the manufacturer recommends as there are various things that may affect curing time. Things that will affect curing time are; temperature, humidity, thickness of the bead, age of product, and containment. At least some brands will lose stability with repeated freeze cycles during storage. Containment would refer to air being able to circulate around the silicone. According to Boss brand silicone, curing time generally refers to a bead 1/8" thick with no containment. A half inch bead may take up to 72 hours to cure. A thick bead with full containment may never cure. 
So if we are sealing the inside of a viv, it is important to leave the lid off. Even so, you have partial containment as the sides will be blocking airflow. A small fan to circulate the air will help this. One thing to remember is that if there is ANY SMELL AT ALL, then the product is NOT fully cured...BUT not being able to smell it, does NOT necessarily mean it is fully cured. A thicker bead could still be curing deep inside, but the smell is "sealed off".
I'm a window repairman and I use an estimated 100 tubes of Silicone per year, for the last 20+ years. I have tried to use old tubes that remained tacky fully two weeks after application. At that point I assumed project would never cure and it was disassembled and redone with fresh silicone.

Silicone will continue to gain strength for up to 2 weeks. This information comes from a telephone consult with Oceanic Aquariums. I consulted them regarding a potential repair on a large bowfront aquarium. They said that due to silicone taking up to two weeks to cure, I should not try to fill the tank till after 2 weeks had passed.
Doug


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

When I started my first viv, I delayed making it for a week or so because I wasn't sure what silicone to use. I went to the hardware store several times to grab a few things and some silicone, each time I didn't grab silicone because was "going to read a little more about it" The last time I went, there was one thing that helped a great deal make the decision. DAP said on the label that it was food safe. 

This might not mean anything at all since I was going to use it near frogs and not food but it was at least some piece of mind for me.


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## dtown (Jan 5, 2011)

Should I even go about using silicone around the edge of the false bottom to attach it to the glass? I thought it would make an extra tight seal so debris doesn't get into my pump/filter area??


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

stalwartbh said:


> Great...just great! I resealed the bottom of my exo-terra 18x18x24 with GE silicone II before reading this post. I had read somewhere it might be a good idea to go ahead and put down more sealant on the exo-terras because they are not specifically made to hold water and I thought I had read that people used GE II. I do have circulating water through the viv. So I guess I will have to get another tank or redo this one before I think about breeding anything. Oh well, I wasn't really thinking I would have much success breeding any ways. I have kept different fish for years and never had much success breeding them.


I think your easiest, cheapest solution here is to put down a thicker bead of GE silicone 1, completely covering the GE silicone 2. This will effectively seal the GE 2 away from your frogs. Unfortunately, it means stripping down your viv first. I like to clean it with rubbing alcohol before sealing.
Doug


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

dtown said:


> Should I even go about using silicone around the edge of the false bottom to attach it to the glass? I thought it would make an extra tight seal so debris doesn't get into my pump/filter area??


Dtown, that is what I do to my false bottoms. Sometimes I'll do the same thing but with a bead of background clay. You might also want to wrap your pump in window screen mesh.
Doug


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Without knowing complete information here, I'm going to hazard a guess agreeing with Dave. I think it may have been a curing issue. Some brands will cure faster than others. Under the best of conditions, Silicone takes 24 hours to cure nad this refers to a 1/8" bead. Personally, I try to give any silicone twice the cure time the manufacturer recommends as there are various things that may affect curing time. Things that will affect curing time are; temperature, humidity, thickness of the bead, age of product, and containment. At least some brands will lose stability with repeated freeze cycles during storage. Containment would refer to air being able to circulate around the silicone. According to Boss brand silicone, curing time generally refers to a bead 1/8" thick with no containment. A half inch bead may take up to 72 hours to cure. A thick bead with full containment may never cure.
> So if we are sealing the inside of a viv, it is important to leave the lid off. Even so, you have partial containment as the sides will be blocking airflow. A small fan to circulate the air will help this. One thing to remember is that if there is ANY SMELL AT ALL, then the product is NOT fully cured...BUT not being able to smell it, does NOT necessarily mean it is fully cured. A thicker bead could still be curing deep inside, but the smell is "sealed off".
> I'm a window repairman and I use an estimated 100 tubes of Silicone per year, for the last 20+ years. I have tried to use old tubes that remained tacky fully two weeks after application. At that point I assumed project would never cure and it was disassembled and redone with fresh silicone.
> 
> ...


Thats good info, I don't think I'd heard that about silicone taking that long, or gaining strength for 2 weeks. I've probably rushed some then while proceeding with construction, adding water to the viv, etc...Probably what has saved me from issues is I generally wait at least till the outside of silicone is hard to proceed and most of my vivs stay empty for weeks if not months after construction so the environment can cycle/stabilize. I'll be more conscience of that in the future...

As far as showing your work. OMG I hated that in math class...WHAT HAVE I BECOME?!?!?!?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Thats good info, I don't think I'd heard that about silicone taking that long, or gaining strength for 2 weeks. I've probably rushed some then while proceeding with construction, adding water to the viv, etc...Probably what has saved me from issues is I generally wait at least till the outside of silicone is hard to proceed and most of my vivs stay empty for weeks if not months after construction so the environment can cycle/stabilize. I'll be more conscience of that in the future...


As far as the two weeks thing goes, I really don't think it applies to us. That was for huge 200+ gallon tanks. Filling those up makes for a LOT of pressure so Oceanic said to make sure and wait the whole time. We couldn't wait on that project so the client just bought a new one. The old one is holding lizards somewhere. I generally wait 48 hours.



Dendro Dave said:


> As far as showing your work. OMG I hated that in math class...WHAT HAVE I BECOME?!?!?!?


Now THAT cracks me up! I had an algebra teacher call my parents in once for "cheating". I could figure it out without showing my work and he said that was impossible so I was cheating!!
Doug


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I was at home depot yesterday and had this discussion with the workers. In the end they printed out the MSDS sheets for Silicone I and Silicone II. Not sure if that's of interest to anyone, but if anyone's curious about something on there I can look it up for you if you'd like. I know it has a full ingredient list on there that might be interesting if you know what the ingredients are.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

I'd actually be very curious to see this. I went in to home depot, lowes, and my local builder supply store here and they all told me GE is phasing out I, and just going with II. I was under the impression that II is not that great for frogs/tads, but if they're phasing out I, what do we use? The DAP that I looked at all had chemicals in it, formaldehyde, etc, and I know people have used DAP as well, but I couldn't find a single tube that was 100% silicone with no weird chemicals. :/


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

I actually threw them away already. But just go in, find a worker, and ask for the msds sheets. They printed them off for me on request.


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