# Frog vs. Reef Convince me



## Kierik (Mar 16, 2012)

I have 13 years experience of reef tanks and last week I saw Vicskimmr's vivarium setup on a reefing forum and it greatly interested me. If I do it I am thinking of a 36x18x36 exo terra tank. The bottom section will be completely submerged and house shrimp and small tetras. The land section will cover 75-90% of the bottom using eggcrate and tubing to prop it up. I will use a ehiem canister filter to filter the water and it will return it in the upper section of the tank which will follow a small stream across the back and across one side before returning to the lower water section in a shallow zone. I plan on using several pieces of grape/driftwood to utilize the canopy zone and give the lower section alot of shade. 

Or

I will do a 18G cadlights reef housing mostly gorgonians, soft corals and pipefish

I am really torn as I still have some reef supplies I would have to sell but it would be nice to build a vivarium. I am in the process of moving from the bay area California to Fort Collins CO. I am fairly close to flipping a coin to determine which but i wanted to hear from some dart frog people what they think are the greatest pros and cons of keeping a dart frog tank.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm going to assume your title is badly worded because straight up, if I have to convince you, you probably are not ready to give up your reef for frogs.
However, if you are just looking for some of the pros and cons, I used to be big into reefing. I ran Colorado Coral Farms for over 10 years. It's all gone now and I'm doing thumbnail frogs. I am in Denver if you want to look us up when you get over this way. You can come tour our frog room. 
Frogging is way cheaper than reefkeeping. Frogging has way less time and maintenance demands. Frogging is easier to walk away from your tank and go on vacation for a week! That bonus alone makes my wife happy! Generally, you will form more of a bond with your frogs than with a fish or coral. Of course that can be a con too. Don't get me wrong, it sucks to lose a fish or a coral, but it's nothing like losing a frog.
Your frogs don't all drop dead when you can't afford to replace all your expensive lights. Your frogs don't all drop dead if you lose electricity overnight.
The floods though....Oh how I miss the inevitable floods!


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I'm going to assume your title is badly worded because straight up, if I have to convinc.ds. Frogging is easier to walk away from your tank and go on vacation for a week! That bonus alone makes my wife happy! Generally, you will form more of a bond with your frogs than with a fish or coral. Of course that can be a con too. Don't get me wrong, it sucks to lose a fish or a coral, but it's nothing like losing a frog.
> Your frogs don't all drop dead when you can't afford to replace all your expensive . Your frogs don't all drop dead if you lose electricity overnight.
> The floods though....Oh how I miss the inevitable floods!


Same deal. And used to work in the wholesale reef/fish industry. Great hobby but it just doesn't fit my lifestyle at the current moment. Had some great times and some very rewarding results. Up to you it if fits or not at this moment...its pretty cool to be able to grow tropical plants if you don't live in the tropics. Frogs are an added bonus and very interesting.


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## mmcguffi (Mar 16, 2012)

Im big into reefing but Im trying to dip my feet into this hobby too



Pumilo said:


> Frogging is easier to walk away from your tank and go on vacation for a week!


if you have a tank that is properly setup, balanced, and mature you can easily walk away from a tank for a week



Pumilo said:


> Generally, you will form more of a bond with your frogs than with a fish or coral. Of course that can be a con too. Don't get me wrong, it sucks to lose a fish or a coral, but it's nothing like losing a frog.


that is entirely opinion



Pumilo said:


> Your frogs don't all drop dead when you can't afford to replace all your expensive lights. Your frogs don't all drop dead if you lose electricity overnight.


while have no experience with this hobby yet and thus cant comment on long term costs, it is true that reefing can cost a lot to maintain. again however, it is possible to setup a system that is relatively cheap to run with LEDs, lots of biofiltration, etc etc




what it really comes down to is which one captivates you more?

right now my paludarium Im researching/setting up is inspiring me way more than my reef tank, though I wouldnt shut down my tank to get my hands in this hobby--simply too much time, money, and effort dedicated to my reef!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Frogs are your fish and plants are your corals!  Here's a little tease. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/76581-pumilos-75-corner-viv-10.html


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Well...again...another reef guy here. Im just coming close to the end of the stocking of my second tank. 125g mixed reef. There are so many reef people on here, its starting to get funny. 

That being said - I have always loved the looks of frog tanks...and plan on building them a sweet little habitat with as many live plants as I can put in there. _A frog reef!_

Im trying to learn as much as possible and go slow. I think I can do both...its just budgeting to buy these frogs! Its not like frag swaps it seems where you can get stuff from hobbyists way cheaper...frogs seem to be pretty much the same across the board. Saving pennies now.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Replies in red. 



mmcguffi said:


> if you have a tank that is properly setup, balanced, and mature you can easily walk away from a tank for a week
> 
> I didn't say you couldn't do it. All my systems were set up to be able to leave for 10 days. Of course I stressed about a sticking float or a power outage the entire time.
> I stated it was easier with a viv, than with a reef. Most systems need calcium bumps and more than that, the Dkh/Alkalinity needs some attention put to it more often than weekly. Systems with a high water to bioload ratio may be the exception, but that is not most systems. Almost every system will need water topped off within that week. Without some attention to these things, the wide swings in Alkalinity and your salinity level are not particularly conducive to a stable system. Of course there are all kinds of bells and whistles to do all of this for you. Float valves, reservoirs and pumps for automatic water top off, calcium reactors and Nilson reactors, along with PH monitors to control your Ph and Dkh...but then that's why I said cheaper and easier.
> ...



Please, I hope you enjoy your reef. I know I loved my systems for the 10+ years I was in the hobby. I would never try to convince you to tear it down. As I stated in my first sentance, If I have to "convince" him, he's not ready for frogs. But I stand by my opinions and you simply cannot argue about cost.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Generally speaking:

Reef = maintenance, maintenance, maintenance. 

Frogs = Easy mode. 

Yes, it's possible to put a reef tank together that doesn't require a whole lot of maintenance... but 9 times out of 10 you will spend less time on a viv of comparable size.


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## mmcguffi (Mar 16, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Replies in red.
> You are the first person I've ever run into, to defend it as a cheap hobby.


lol Im not sure what pumilo is talking about; I wasnt trying to start an argument... at all

I think he's reading into some of my comments a little too much

With that final comment I was trying to convey that reefing is generally an expensive hobby, though there are ways of setting up and maintaining budget reefs that look just as great. I didnt make any conjecture on the costs of maintaining a viv/paludarium



The main point of all that though was that if you _have_ to choose between the two, just choose the one that captivates and inspires you more. For me my reef tank is currently on the back burner while I dive into this hobby!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mmcguffi said:


> lol Im not sure what pumilo is talking about; I wasnt trying to start an argument... at all
> 
> I think he's reading into some of my comments a little too much
> 
> ...


Sorry, then, I probably did read too much into it. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

mmcguffi said:


> lol Im not sure what pumilo is talking about; I wasnt trying to start an argument... at all
> 
> I think he's reading into some of my comments a little too much


I think he was replying to what you said in a perfectly fine manner, and your reading into his comments a bit too much.

When you say "That is entirely opinion" in that sense, as well as the way you replied in other ways, it can come off differently than how you are meaning it. Doug said he did reefing for 10+ years and I'm sure has a good idea of the differences between both hobbies.


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## TechNerd (Jul 19, 2011)

Aaaannndd welcome to the boards!  You'll find many helpful people here as well as any information on keeping dendros and viv construction that you could possibly need. Good luck and enjoy!


TN

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## Kierik (Mar 16, 2012)

I am moving so there is no tank to tear down just deciding which to setup once I get to Colorado. I mostly wanted to hear from people who made the switch over. I also got the added bonus of hearing from a coloradian too! Also Plumo awesome build it has ideas floating in my head. 

Now to deal with my movers who are a no show this morning.

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## wohlerswi (Nov 20, 2011)

I am also addicted to reefing. I have a 110 gallon mixed reef, and as stated before the long term cost of reefing (buying salt, other additives, water if you dont have an RO unit, containers to store your water in, and the sheer monthly cost on the power bill not to mention the initial cost of doing it right) will far surpass your long term frog costs. I would not ever recommend getting out of reefing, I love my tank but you cant really compare the two. Sure there are a lot of parallels we can find (and thats why a lot of frog people are reef people and vise versa) between the two but why not do both? Set up your cube and cycle it and let it just sit there while you decide with way you want to go with it and work on a frog tank. When the frog tank is finished then go put some energy into the salt water. Once frogs are in the tank there isnt much else in the way of hands on involvement and your salt water tank might fill some of that void for you. Also one other thing that hasnt been mentioned. I understand coral (most coral) is easy to propagate, but fish on the other hand...If you are going to breed salt water fish, you will need a huge system to house everything. Most salt water fish have never been bred in captivity, as far as darts go, its the complete opposite. You can watch the entire life cycle in your vivarium. Then when you get babies you can trade them for more reefing stuff (helping cut your reefing expense way down) or sell them/trade them for more frogs. Also hasnt been mentioned. Frogs I have found to be more addicting then fish and coral! Good luck and let us know what you decide, Doug is a good guy with some sweet stuff. I would recommend going over there and checking out what him and frogboy have going on. They are usually up to big things, and Ive heard can be more than generous to people coming over to check things out! I wish they lived closed to me 
Will Wohlers


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I have been into reefing since just about the begining of the hobby. (live rock from Florida, air driven skimmers, Normal output fluorescent lights only) I have been keeping frogs for about 3 years. Here are some differences I see.

1. If you want another coral(and you always do), you buy it and put it in your tank. If you want a new frog(and you always will) you have set up another tank.

2. While the electric bill for a reef tank is much more than a frog vivarium, you are likely only going to have one reef tank(maybe two or three), but you will have 3-100 frog tanks. The electricity for lighting 6 or 7 frogs vivs easily equals one reef.

3. Depending on how stable your reef is, you will have at least weekly maintainance. For frogs you have to make weekly fruit fly cultures(most people find this to be their least favorite thing about frogs). If you put off you reef maintainance it may not be a big deal. If you put off making fruit fly cultures you may end up scrambling to find frog food.

4. When people come to your house, they will be fascinated by your reef tank and often go back to it over and over. They will look at your frog vivs and be impressed, but the fascination won't be there. They have seen plants before and after they have seen the frogs(*if* they can see them), they are done.

I am still doing both. I told my wife that I was thinking of changing the reef tank in the living room to a frog viv, and she said "no way, people just don't enjoy your frog tanks as much as they enjoy your reef."

If I had to choose between the two, I don't really know which one it would be. I did break down a couple clownfish/anemone tanks to save on electricity and make room for frogs and plant grow-out, but still have two tanks.
FWIW, I am lucky that my reef (sps, favia, chalices) is fairly low maintainace. The live rock at this point is about 30 years old and keeps things pretty stable.

Just my opinions.


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## mmcguffi (Mar 16, 2012)

30 year old LR! wow link me to your tank(s) if ya can


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## aberreef (Feb 20, 2012)

I gave up reef keeping about a year ago and now starting with dart frogs. One thing I've noticed straight away is that vivs, although beautiful, are a little "flat" compared to a nicely stocked reef. What I mean is, in a reef tank, there is always something moving whether its a fish, shrimp or simply a coral waving in the flow.

Despite that I'm sticking with the frogs. When I weigh up the pros and cons of each the frogs win hands down


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## spoiledcats (Apr 19, 2011)

I've done both also. We had a reef tank that we took down about 3 years ago. I loved it, but don't think I would do another one unless I had a generator. I live in Pennsylvania, and have gas heat, so the frogs would be okay if the power went out (which it did for 3 days this winter), but a reef tank is heated with electricity, and I just can't handle worrying about the fish and corals. I get attached to whatever. I love my frogs, and I loved my fish. Both are awesome, so I really couldn't convince you either way. I do find that I worried a lot more with the reef tank than I do with the frogs. But that's just me.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Your frogs don't all drop dead if you lose electricity overnight.


I beg to differ on that statement..
It all depends on where you are and the temperatures..
Here in Texas when Electricity goes out when it is 117*F things heat up very Fast and things inside a house pushing 120+ indoors in a closed up house tend to expire fast.

Many Froggers experience catastrophic loses during Power outages during temperature extremes hot and Cold.

but back on Topic..Myself an prefer a wider range of collections than just frogs because of my purpose of collecting which is to share the experience and as many species as possible with as many people as possible. Limiting Myself to a few species of frogs would defeat the purpose. 

Ask yourself would coming home to a small piece of Rainforest of silent movement instead a Swirling Mass of Tropical Reef bring you as much enjoyment..Myself I want both. I want to hear frogs peeping..I enjoy looking for the Geckos and Frogs amongst the Plants and Branches and Vines..and later hear all the peeps, croaks and even the Crickets chirping into the Night. However I want to someday enjoy the pleasure of coming home and sitting down and enjoying the peaceful beautiful simplicity of the Tropical reef..to watch the graceful delicate ballet of the fish with its calming effect.

The secret is to find the right balance in any hobby..When it becomes Work to maintain anything it becomes no longer enjoyable. I spend a few hours a week maintaining my Collection..Not Hours daily.. Which is good because of my work schedule of 4 on 4 off, on work days I get up at 0430 and get home around 2000 hrs.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Reefing is just expensive and then you have to change the water lol. TOO much work. I mist because I don't have an auto mister yet. Every new viv I have is drilled so I dont have to syphon the water out. If you have all viv's drilled and a mist king all you have to do is feed the Darts and thats it. I don't like water that much so its a plus.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

mmcguffi said:


> 30 year old LR! wow link me to your tank(s) if ya can


I don't have a recent pic, but below is a composite pic for my 48" 55 gal. from 2008, before I lost most of my Monti caps to a plague of nudibranchs.

I filled the hole the Montis left with a BTA from another tank. (2nd pic)

Please ask any other questions via pm so as to not derail this thread.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Your frogs don't all drop dead if you lose electricity overnight.





jpstod said:


> I beg to differ on that statement..
> It all depends on where you are and the temperatures..
> Here in Texas when Electricity goes out when it is 117*F things heat up very Fast and things inside a house pushing 120+ indoors in a closed up house tend to expire fast.


OK, fair enough, I can further expand upon that statement for those who didn't get the implication. Reef tanks require water motion for oxygenation, to carry waste products away, and to carry fresh nutrients in. They also require electricity to keep water running through your filtration system. Far and above though, this statement is dealing with water motion. Since we have to get specific here, If your power goes out overnight, your reef tank suffocate, the water can foul out, PLUS you still have temperatures to deal with. Far and above, this statement was referring to suffocation from oxygen depletion. 
With your typical vivarium, obviously, temperature would be all that applies. 
I chose not to go into the details as I figured most experienced reef keepers could figure that out without having to go into the details.
To go into further details, many vivs are small enough to be moved to a temperature controlled location. Try to quickly move a reef tank to your friends house, who still has electricity...it's not going to happen! If your viv is too big to move, you can move your frogs out for the duration. It's not so easy to try and move every coral and fish out.


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## Kierik (Mar 16, 2012)

In a 36x18x36 tank how many frogs would you recommend? 

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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Kierik said:


> In a 36x18x36 tank how many frogs would you recommend?
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


Depends, what species are you looking to get? Since they are your first, I would recommend a big group of leucomelas. They are great beginner frogs and will use all the space in the tank. Plus they do well in groups. But the number depends on what species you want. I could also recommend auratus, vittata, aurotaenia, galactonotus, terribilis, azureiventris, and tinctorius.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When I started with salt water, state of the art was undergravel filters with airstone risers... the substrate was crushed oyster shell or dolomite....and all hard corals were bleached.. Soft corals were unheard of... and people were often proud to grow Aptasia... 

In at least one of the old tropical fish books in my collection has a whole chapter on acclimating damsel fish to freshwater to make thier easier to care for or for those that wanted more novelty in thier fish tank.... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Careful Ed, you're dating yourself!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Careful Ed, you're dating yourself!


Then people might not think I was a little old man hunched over my computer. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

We had a place in Ft. Collins that used to sell you a single Damsel. They said the goal was to kill it. Once it died, you were supposed to bury it in the sand. Two weeks later you can start to get your real fish and corals. The dead fish was how you "seeded" your tank with bacteria.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ed's first aquarium was a stone box not a glass box.


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

One positive of a frog viv over a reef tank is that I've never gotten a nudibranch outbreak that has killed a $100 plant, and my frogs have never gotten ich 

I've put about the same amount of effort into my reef tanks as I have in my frog tanks. I tend to get better, quicker, and more gratifying results in my frog tanks. That said, I'm off to move some froglets to their growout tank!


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ed's first aquarium was a stone box not a glass box.


To be fair, they didn't have glass back then


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

pnwpdf said:


> One positive of a frog viv over a reef tank is that I've never gotten a nudibranch outbreak that has killed a $100 plant


Mollusks, pissing off reefers and froggers alike


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

thedude said:


> Mollusks, pissing off reefers and froggers alike


and those god-forsaken nemerteans.


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

thedude said:


> Mollusks, pissing off reefers and froggers alike


I think they will continue to piss me off for the rest of my life. I swear they have a spore form and can just blow in on the breeze.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

pnwpdf said:


> I think they will continue to piss me off for the rest of my life. I swear they have a spore form and can just blow in on the breeze.


As long as its just gastropods, we don't need flying cephalopod spores!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

How about Red Bugs? When I was partners on a larger scale farming effort, Fragshop, we got Red Bugs before much was known about them. We lost...beyond thousands in Acropora.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Lets put it this way, the amount of money that I have spent in the reef hobby over the years on my two tanks (including after a couple disasters I bought generaters, chillers, restocking, flood damage)would pay for a pair of every locale of every dart species available, and their vivariums, and pay for their food and electrical costs for years to come.

Maintenancewise, once you get a reef going and dailed in (and get a little dicipline in not overstocking with fish) it is pretty easy. The reef hobby is getting a lot more automated. That being said, this is assuming nothing in your system breaks or malfunctions (like a couple heaters of mine one of which electricuted everything, the other that roasted everything).

The thing that I will say about dart frogs over reefs is that fact that the dart frog hobby is a lot more environmentally friendly. Think cyanide which is used for stunning and capturing fish, but poisons the reef. Captive bred frogs and plant cuttings vs. just a few fish (clowns, a few dottybacks, and a couple pygmy angels) though coral propogation has come a long way. The electrical costs of frogs are a lot less than running a reef tank. Somebody said you could run 6 vivs for the amount of electricity you run a reef. I say its probably more like a dozen, probably more.



pnwpdf said:


> One positive of a frog viv over a reef tank is that I've never gotten a nudibranch outbreak that has killed a $100 plant, and my frogs have never gotten ich
> 
> I've put about the same amount of effort into my reef tanks as I have in my frog tanks. I tend to get better, quicker, and more gratifying results in my frog tanks. That said, I'm off to move some froglets to their growout tank!


If there is one thing that I have taken with me from the reefing hobby to keeping dart frogs its the importance of quarantining. I experienced it all in reefing from ich outbreaks, to nudibrachs, to flatworms, to hitchhiking mantis shrimp. It's made me anal about my frogs but I am grateful for it.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

For the record I am completly out of reefing. Some things I miss, some things I do not. I may get back into reefing some day, but not until I know I will be settled in the same place for more than 10 years. In the meanwhile darts have won me over 100% and given my current situation, have no regrets.


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

Gotta say im in the same boat with varanoid. I was pretty big into reefs for a few years. Spent a ton of money on special high tech equipment and lights tons on coral and fish. I never had any luck with fish. I had some randomly jump some just disapear some get ich. Coral would fall off a rock and start stinging everything around and get rapid tissue necrosis and die... 
I miss the corals but i couldnt keep up to my OCD standards of water quality. One day ill get a nice automatic system with auto water change and dosing. But in loven the frogs. Really getting into the plants. Stay away from the orchids they're addicting!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Max and I used to tell people that our hobby was gluing live animals to rocks!


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## love_chariot (Sep 1, 2011)

I lived in SoCal, got salt water stuff on the cheap and had a successful 29 gallon reef tank. When I moved back to AZ, I had to give it up because I couldn't afford to maintain it here. While looking around the interweb I discovered dart frogs and immediately was hooked. If you are moving and can start fresh I advise getting a 18x18x24 zoomed or exoterra and starting out with a few larger frogs, leucs, auratus, tincs. While you are setting up your viv, read some of the books written by folks like Jason Juchems (I hope I spelled that right). Find a good exotic animal vet to do your fecal samples and an online or local retailer to sell you flies and media. Oh and find space to expand because once you start you will end up with a whole room. 

Great Reasons for Frogging vs Reef:
1. No water changes/chemical checks
2. Frogs reproduce fairly regularly (easier to acquire farmed stock not wild caught)
3. Tanks require little maintenance (misting, trimming every once in awhile) 
4. You'll never have that terrified feeling that the front will crack and cover your floor in salt water.
5. Frogs make noise (The first time you hear a leuc call is amazing)
6. CFL's and LED's save you hundreds vs metal halide and more intense aquarium lighting. 
7. Character, although some fish have character, they don't come close to the frogs. Watching my two bakhuis follow each other around, or when my leucs chow down on dinner are some of my favorite times of day.


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## Roadkillstewie (Feb 15, 2012)

I see hordes of current and former reefers, goin with or adding frogs...

In the reef forums, offhand I can only recall a couple folx mentioning pdf's over 5-6 years.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

great thread and amazing how fast it is growing. i have had tanks for 30+ years and started reefing in the undergravel era as well. my current viv is my first to hold pdfs but ive had terrariums with various things for years as well. i enjoy my frogs and have loved planting the viv with a huge assortment of plants. getting orchids can put this hobby into the reef tank realm in pricing but ive only lost one small orchid out of over 100. my success with my reef was good but i always had a higher loss level than that with new additions. my current 300 gal reef is on auto mode right now. i definately put more time and maintenece into my viv. this is possible because most fish were lost in a plague of ich last summer and im just letting the xenia grow wild. i will keep in both hobbies as i always need a new project to keep me going. for visual impact i would agree that people were more impressed by my 300 reef than my large viv. my advice would be to start a small viv with inexpensive frogs and see if it grabs and holds your attention. if so you may expand into it. if not then back to the reef you go. either way good luck on the move.


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## Kierik (Mar 16, 2012)

Now I survived the drive, got altitude sickness on day 1, I wanted to know everyones opnions on the exo terra systems. My concern is the system holding water near the top of the lower section and the weight of the landscaping above? Do these systems have a good track record or should I build a system to my liking from scratch?

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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

Exo-terra vivs are pretty good. I've never had a problem with one leaking. You can't fill them all the way up to the top with water, but you're just wanting a little bit of water in there to keep some shrimp. An inch or three of water in there won't break it. Just don't try to move it when it has water in it.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Kierik said:


> Now I survived the drive, got altitude sickness on day 1, I wanted to know everyones opnions on the exo terra systems. My concern is the system holding water near the top of the lower section and the weight of the landscaping above? Do these systems have a good track record or should I build a system to my liking from scratch?
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


As mentioned those tanks have a pretty good track record. However, if you've found that you enjoy building reef tanks from scratch, you'll enjoy building frog tanks from scratch as well.

And my 2 cents of the reef vs frogs: I really like how there's a relatively large community of reefers out there, and there's a good supply of corals/fishes for consumers out there. However, I really don't like how most of the livestock is wild caught, and the whole system feels painfully unsustainable when you look at it in the long term. I prefer frogging because most of the people in the hobby really care about conservation, and as a result, you'll find that the majority of the frogs in the hobby are captive-bred. I feel that those who care enough to keep animals that are endangered (or whose native habitats are endangered or in decline), should also care enough to help conserve the animals in the wild (for example, by not buying wild-caught).


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, I have to add my two cents. I'm here in Colorado with Doug (Pumiolio). I started reef keeping when I was 14 years old. This was my pre-frog days. I worked at a local aquarium shop then (South Broadway Tropicals) and got the majority of my stuff for cost, or close to it. Now...given, I was making 4.25 an hour then (1992?) and working full time. Just to maintain my 10 gallon reef, and my 29 gallon reef, lightly stocked, took my entire paycheck, and I was mowning lawns and doing side jobs to bring in more cash. Given reef keeping has come A LONG ways from where it was then technology wise, but its still a very expensive hobby. I can set up a nice 40 gallon breeder vertical Viviarium, with plants and inhabitants for what just the lighting and filtration would cost on a 40 breeder reef tank. I loved reefing, and I find the corals and creatures measmerizing and entertaining, but if I had the choice to set up mor frog tanks or a reef, the frogs win hands down. Now....if the quick pick lottery ticket in ym wallet is a winner....hey, I might start a few reef tanks. But in the meatime...frogger for life!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Y'all are making me want a reef tank


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Kierik has just toured the frog room. Should you decide to go with frogs, I'll set you up with a few nice cuttings to get started scaping.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Why do I have Freddie in my head singing "another one bites the dust?"


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> Why do I have Freddie in my head singing "another one bites the dust?"


Why do I have Weird Al in my head singing, "another one rides the bus"?


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## Kierik (Mar 16, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Kierik has just toured the frog room. Should you decide to go with frogs, I'll set you up with a few nice cuttings to get started scaping.


I wanted to thank Doug for the tour and the knowledge he shared with me. You have a beautiful collection and I can't wait to get my tank up and running now. 

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk


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