# Problem with Great Stuff background



## Chondroholic (Aug 18, 2005)

I recently started making a great stuff/ground coco fiber background for a 20 gal high tank. I had the great suff on and all seemed fine. I let it expand and sit for 24 hours. I then used black silicone to adhere the coco fiber to the great stuff making sure to seal all exposed parts of the great stuff so it wont break down when exposed to water. I finished put the coco fiber on and let it sit so the silicone cured, and when i came home from work today to plant the tank, i found that on all 4 sides of the great stuff "mass", it had shrunk in about half an inch. My questions are: 1) Did the silicone cause and is that "normal?" and 2) If I just silicone the shrunken parts to seal them will it keep shrinking even more?

Thanks in advance

Brian


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Great Stuff naturally expands, then contracts a bit, over time.

I am not sure, but I also believe it takes longer than 24 hours to cure. It would depend on the thickness.

I'd let it sit (as is) for another couple days - then fill in the gaps.

s


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2005)

Ive noticed this also.And ive noticed that by misting the foam with water periodically it seems to decrease the amouts of shrinkage. It could also depend on the kind of Great Stuff you use; i use the kind in the red can for 'gaps and cracks.'


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Try this product !!www.fomo.com it's a black spray foam and it cures in just about 10 min. . A few years back I used Great Stuff it shrunk and I lots 2 panguana behind the wall !! To solve the shrinking problem try running a thick bead of silicone along the glass where the foam meets the glass . Haven't had a problem w/ shrinking since I started to do that and haven't lost a frog either . 
Once you go fomo you'll never go great stuff again !!!!
Make sure that you order the black kind , as they do make a product very similar to great stuff and it's just as sucky !
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Which Great Stuff did you use? I have had this problem with the crack filling can (red), but the window and door can (blue) won't contract. In the tank that I experienced this with, I just filled in the sides of the contracted Great stuff with silicone, and let it cure for over a week.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2005)

also, it depends how thick you layered it. If you were making a thick background and you did it all at once you could have problems. Generally your supposed to build it up layer by layer allowing each layer to cure for at least a day, mebbe a bit longer


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## Chondroholic (Aug 18, 2005)

I only did one layer that is about 1" thick, a bit thicker in a few areas to get a more natural look. I would say the thickest part is 1.5". I used the red can. I think I will let the great stuff sit as is for another 2-3 days and then fill in the gaps with silicone.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

great discussion and recommendations

I have made over a dozen backgrounds and numerous other river walls and landscapes with the Red Can Great Stuff and often but not always, it contracts. Usually within the first week, certainly in the first 2.

Misting (or even having it all set up, water and all) has never helped me. Still contracts, whether I kept it wet or not.

Interestingly though it does not happen with all cans used.

I will try the Blue Can as someone suggested (thanks) or that black foam mentioned earlier.

Scott's suggestion to just wait a bit and fill in the gaps again before doing the coco step is a good one......You Can't Rush Perfection!

Shawn


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Daren
Which Fomo product:

Handi-foam
Handi-seal
or Fast-foam
?

Shawn


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Sorry I should have been more clear . Handi Foam is the product that you want . it is listed as one -component "black" polyurethane foam and the product number is p10053 .
I don't knopw why you all still use the great stuff, no matter what color the cap , it flat out sux !!! Instead of a cure time of days ,it cures IN 10 MIN...!!!!yes it dose cost a few $$ more . No matter how thick I apply this product, by the end of one hour I'm flocking it w/ cocco fiber! Hell in this fast paced world of ours ,NOTHING should take days to cure, and if it dose find somthing else !  
Happy frogging,
Darren Meyer


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2005)

I've bought the handi-foam from Dr Fosters, several times I don't think I'd go back to using greatstuff, as the foam is sold for pond/aquarium use (making me think its safer) and its black, which almost looks good enough w/o being covered in silicone/coco. Darren thanks for the link hopefully its cheaper getting it direct from the source.


-Tad


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

i have had the same problem with great stuff. i have solved this problem by cutting a piece of egg crate to the size of the background and siliconing it in very well. let that cure and then foam whatever u want. the egg crate gives the foam something to grab onto and it wond peel off the glass. it works VERY well. i could show u pics if your interrested

-josh


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2005)

> i have solved this problem by cutting a piece of egg crate to the size of the background and siliconing it in very well.


I've thought of doing the same thing with the intention of leaving space enough for a pump, and maybe a few other things like slots to drop ff cultures in that then could be capped off so the ffs' have to go through the background into the open part of the vivarium (or something similiar to the compost tank that ?Ben Green? did).

-Tad


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## josh_r (Feb 4, 2005)

yes, that would work great! if you try it, lemme know how that works. ive contemplated the same thing


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## noworries (Sep 30, 2005)

*handi foam*

Handi foam....Awesome product. I purchased a can from Darren at a WADS meeting after he had done a demo. I was able to make two 10verts and a 2.5gal vert. Cures extremely quick, was able to put silicon and coco fiber on same night. However two weeks later I am still smelling some "fumes", but not sure if it's the handi foam or the silicon. Either way was very impressed with how quickly it set up.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

how much of the stuff do you have to buy since it seems you are ordering from the company. 
what type of stores sell the black foam stuff.
walt


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I did a search last night and after looking at 20 or so places that offered the handi-foam......the cheapest seemed to be Dr Foster's and Smith at 6.99$

So I ordered 4 cans to give it a try.

I emailed the company direct but have not yet heard back. I am not sure you can buy from them, or at least it doesnt seem like you can from their product web page.

Hope that helps

Shawn


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

i sort of was thinking that since it is right from the company that you have to have an account and order about a skid of the stuff.
maybe if you are lucky it would be about a box full. about 6 cans per box.
walt


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Walt
I will post the companies relpy if they ever get back to me.

Online, it looks like it comes from them in 12can cases. I didn't see a price and I suspect you need to be a distributor or a business to order.

Try Fosters and Smith.

Shawn


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Shawn - If you find you can order, I'll split a case with you.

s


sports_doc said:


> ... Online, it looks like it comes from them in 12can cases. I didn't see a price and I suspect you need to be a distributor or a business to order.


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Sorry guys ,I've found that you do infact have to order handi foam from a dealer . The handi foam company gave me a list of local dealers ,(only one in the whole Seattle area ) and they diden't carry the the black kind . They had to special order it for me and it wasa huge hassel , and had to order a min of 3 cases once it was all said and done w/ shipping and tax the per can cost was just under 10.00 a can . If hadi foam does get back w/ you they will most likly give you a local list of dealers .
Happy frogging and foam huntting !
Darren Meyer


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

thanks Darren

Scott, I ordered 4 cans from Dr Fosters and Smith at 6.99 each

Shawn


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## yuri (Feb 18, 2004)

Hey Tad,

I think you are referring to Ben Eiben's "compost" tank. Here is a link.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5237&highlight=

Yuri



> I've thought of doing the same thing with the intention of leaving space enough for a pump, and maybe a few other things like slots to drop ff cultures in that then could be capped off so the ffs' have to go through the background into the open part of the vivarium (or something similiar to the compost tank that ?Ben Green? did).
> 
> -Tad


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

i sort of figured that to get the stuff you have to buy alot and it would be from a dealer for them.
i'm just wondering how many people on here would want a can of the stuff.
wonder what dealers are on the east coast.
walt


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2005)

Which triple expanding foam does everyone use, the red or blue can?


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## Biznatch (Aug 30, 2005)

Yea I don't know what you are talking about with the foam having to be ordered in bulk, I just placed an order through http://www.drfostersmith.com for 2 12oz. cans for the same price the guy posted above. Just search in the pond section for foam and it comes up. Should be here soon i hope


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

*middle man*

biz, what they are talking about is trying to cut out the middleman and get it from the source. also you said 2 [email protected] cans those are small cans. geat stuff and the cans that the guys are talking about come in bigger sizes.if drfostersmith are charging that price then getting it from the co. would be cheaper can wise. but then it was mentioned by darren what it was going to cost him per can. 
just have to get a bunch of the people and order about 5 skids worth of the stuff to get the price per can that would make it cheap. 
side note:
touch 'n foam also carries "landscape foam" these are the co. who get their stuff: true-serve/true value, ace hardware, do it best, handy harware, 84 lumber, united building centers. i just remembered that i wrote to them about thier foam.
walt


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2005)

*Handi Foam*

An FYI....

I just read the data sheet for the Handi Foam #P10053. That is a "one component" foam that dries tack free in 10 minutes and cures in 24 hours. There is a "two component" foam that partially chemically cures in 2-5 minutes and totally cures in an hour. The Handi Foam part number is P10600. But, this is not black foam. The black foam will look better so I'd rather have to wait for a time and let it cure completely.

I worked in the glass industry for a number of years and I can tell you that coating your viv with silicone sealant will almost guarantee you a TEMPORARY adhesion of any foam or adhesive product. In fact, the Handi Foam data sheet specifically states that the foam will not adhere to silicone. I would imagine that Great Stuff is the same since they are both urethane based insulators.

Long term....what I've read suggests even the Handi Foam (applied on a silicone surface) can separate and shift, leaving gaps for curious creatures. Particularly since two dissimilar materials, joined, will expand and contract at varying rates.

What I'd do is use the black, one part foam, and apply without the silicone. Let it cure for 48-72 hours or more because you will have some residual chemical release. Then apply black silicone to the foam and cover with coco or whatever.

I'm new to PDF's but I do know glass and sealants....silicone adheres well to nearly anything....but hardly anything will adhere to silicone, and last.

When I build my dream viv I plan to mount an egg crate that will cover the entire rear wall. I will extend the crate material all the way to the tank floor in the false bottom. Then, I will locate my features and secure them in place and finally fill in with foam. What I'm hoping is that this will give a solid structural "frame" for the foam and prevent shifting.

I hope my post has not been entirely anal, but informative.


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

*Handi foam*

Thanks Darren,
I am about to start a background for a 29 gallon and was about to use "Great Stuff". Ill take your word for it and use Handi Foam. It sounds much better. Where is the cheapest place to get it? Can you get it at local stores? I dont like the idea of the foam shrinking weeks after I build it. How many cans would it take to do a 29 gallon or a 37 gallon (approx.)? Any ideas?

help from anyone on this subject will be much appreciated!!

Derrick


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

Hey Derrick , feel free to call me w/ any questions reguarding the foam . To answer your question on how many cans ,I'd say 2 . Though I have been able to strech one can out to do 3 backgrounds in 18 gal tanks . it was a very thin layer and would require a steady hand and a bit of experince w/ the product . If you'd like you can p/u a few cans from me ,I just p/u another 72 cans .
Think I'll do another demo at a future WADS meeting .....
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2005)

Great, sounds like I bought the wrong stuff. (the red can) The black foam sounds like it works a lot better, and did some one say "SAFER". I know everybody uses great stuff, but I have read posts of people talking about a post that listed some bad stuff about it,(toxins?) but I haven't ran across the post with the list.


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2005)

Hey Darren,
I've heard it doesn't hurt to ask, So....
Did you just say you had 72 cans of the black handy foam? Are they 12oz cans like Dr. Fosters offers?
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/p ... 2728&Nty=1 
(wow-big link)

Are they cheaper (I'd hope) buying that many? Do you have some for sale, or a link where you got yours??? Sounds like you could make a lot of friends on this forum :wink:


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I just bought my second box of 12 from a local distributor that I got off off the fomo website,(or by calling-can't remember) Edward Sales in MN. The cost per can was 4.80 plus tax. My understanding is the fomo product is designed to stand up while in constant contact with water. At this point I have not had problems with it but my experience is only 3 months old. I liked working with it a lot better. As mention previously I applied directly to the glass and not to a silicon base. After full expansion of lets say 24 hours, I have not notice any contraction or pull away in 3 months BUT I have notice lack of cohesion. It does not stick to the glass in a permanent fashion and I believe the recommendation earlier of using egg crate or other established features is smart or you may find it just flop off eventually. To clarify agian.........it sticks but just not REAL permanent, it can be pulled or knocked off. I put several splash areas of fomo on just the glass without support and these are loosening up and may over time fall off. I recommend doing a test patch on glass and let it sit at least a week and then pull it off to see for yourself.

Dr. Fosters link is to the right stuff.


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

As the previous post mentioned the use of Handi-Foam, I started doing some research on it (i.e. where to buy it, cost, etc...). What I came across was something REALLY neat! This stuff comes in BLACK! Although I have not personally used any of the "foam" processes yet, one of the things I hear is that people sometimes miss coating the silicone over the foam when they are putting on coco base or sometimes you get a peel off of the coco base. In either case you're left with an unsightly yellow base showing through. Using foam that is Black would be excellent!

Here is where I found the product: http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fus ... 5/cid/3029

Aquatic Eco-Systems is a great place to deal with. I've bought pond products off of them for years. Apparently some folks use Handi-Foam in the construction of pond and their water falls.

Has anyone else used Handi-Foam?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Here's what I'd do to fix the adhesion problem. Take clear vinyl plastic, like the rolls that you can but to cover your windows during the winter, and lay that inside your tank. Then place your features and foam. When the foam cures it does not adhear to the vinyl well, so the vinyl can be pulled off easily. Then the complete foam backing can be siliconed to the tank. I know this works for Great Stuff Red Cap, so experiment with other foams before you go all out. 

This thread has been a huge help. I'm planning on doing some stuff with foam and this has answered all of my questions but one, though it is off topic a bit, does anyone know if/where you can get Black GE Silocone I? I really don't like working with Silicone II.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

Whats wrong with Silicon II?
They've got black Silicon I at my local Home depot.

Matt


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

After curing completely it is still far to plyable for my liking. It also doesn't adhear to pvc or glass as well as Silicone I. Though I don't know if it's to do with the color or not. I usually use clear Silicone I but have only used black Silicone II.


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

I heard that Silicone 1 has anti-mold agents in the silicone. That is not good for frogs. It can kill your frogs from what Ive heard. I wouldnt use anything with anti-mold agents. Oh and if anyone finds a better, non anti-mold silicone then please post it in this thread. I would like to use it.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2005)

defaced said:


> After curing completely it is still far to plyable for my liking. It also doesn't adhear to pvc or glass as well as Silicone I. Though I don't know if it's to do with the color or not. I usually use clear Silicone I but have only used black Silicone II.


I personally go for the brown stuff, it doesnt show through quite so much.
I havent noticed any difference between the two perhaps you bought an ancient can or something.

Matt


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2005)

> I heard that Silicone 1 has anti-mold agents in the silicone. That is not good for frogs. It can kill your frogs from what Ive heard. I wouldnt use anything with anti-mold agents. Oh and if anyone finds a better, non anti-mold silicone then please post it in this thread. I would like to use it.


GE silicone I and II are safe to use as long as you don't get the GE Kitchen & Bath silicone II. 
However I know Silicone II is not FDA safe,and I can't remember if Silicone I is or not.

I like to use OSI Pro-Series HM-270 It is very strong and FDA-USDA approved. It comes in 7 colors 
plus if you have, but if you want to place a big enough order they will make a custom color  
I would like to see a dark green, but I think I can live with the black and browns.

None of these are labeled as for use with aquariums, but I am not sure what makes aquarium silicone 
so special. If you compare the MSDS of DAP's aquarium silicone to OSI they both release acetic acid 
as they cure. Maybe is for legal reasons, but if someone really knows the answer please share.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> perhaps you bought an ancient can or something.


That's the first thing I thought of, but the tube doesn't expire till 2007...
I'm thinking that the cure rate is different between the two and that's what I'm not liking. Silicone I skins very quickly and can handle water within 15 minutes or so. Silicone II seems to cure evenly thoughout the bead and does not do well with water before it's cured. I think I'm going to get a few tubes this weekend and do some tests and post the resluts, because if I can save a dollar per tube of silicone then I will. 

I can't think of a reason why aquarium silicone is special. Looking at the tech specs of the HM-270 (price, where to get it?) you could easily do some engineering to see if it could be used to hold a tank full of water with a reasonable factor of saftey. Also with sufficent test equipment/tech specs you could compair aquarium silicone to this and other silicones. Though that test equipment would only be available to schools and industry. 

I just kinda jumped in without introducing myself. My name's Mike, I live in Columbus OH and am a Welding Engineering student at OSU. To say the least joining things is kinda my bag so if some more of this type of info can be found for other products I don't mind doing the analysis to see if there is a structual difference between aquarium silicone and others more commonly available. Or if comonily available silicones could handle the loads assocated with frog tanks.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2005)

defaced said:


> I can't think of a reason why aquarium silicone is special. Looking at the tech specs of the HM-270 (price, where to get it?) you could easily do some engineering to see if it could be used to hold a tank full of water with a reasonable factor of saftey. Also with sufficent test equipment/tech specs you could compair aquarium silicone to this and other silicones. Though that test equipment would only be available to schools and industry.
> 
> I just kinda jumped in without introducing myself. My name's Mike, I live in Columbus OH and am a Welding Engineering student at OSU. To say the least joining things is kinda my bag so if some more of this type of info can be found for other products I don't mind doing the analysis to see if there is a structual difference between aquarium silicone and others more commonly available. Or if comonily available silicones could handle the loads assocated with frog tanks.


Well the OSI is what I build my tanks with and a thin bead (between the glass only) makes it next to impossible to seperate the panes. I haven't done a test to see if it hold a full tank of water, because I just make front opening tanks  5" of water max.

If you want to run some test that would be great. On the OSI link they have a where to buy section, but I found an online supplier OSI online and it runs $5 a tube, so a little cheaper than GE silicone II.

BTW, welcome to the board


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## Derrick (Oct 28, 2005)

The OSI link said it can not be used with porous materials. The foam, wood and cork backgrounds are porous. Have you had success adhereing any porous materials?


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2005)

Derrick said:


> The OSI link said it can not be used with porous materials. The foam, wood and cork backgrounds are porous. Have you had success adhereing any porous materials?


I first started using this stuff because its what we use to waterproof behind windows when we install them so plastic to wood, and we always have extra tubes at the end of the job. 

I have not used the black OSI, yet, but will after I run out of the black GE stuff. I have used the OSI clear to adhear the back ground on multiple times with out problems. 

As far as problems with silicon to foam issues, I have never had any. Cover the foam completely first with silicone only and let it dry. Then cover it again and add your topping: coco, peat, whatever. I will take som pics of the tank I am working on now and show the steps I use.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2005)

A bit Off topic....
But I just want to thank you guys for the interesting thread, the info, and the great links.

Mac


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2005)

*Covering foam with silicone*

People have been having problems with silicone sticking to foam. I haven't ran into this problem so I took some pictures of how I do it.
I first cover my tank back with silicone. The place the foam about where I want it. After the foam cures for 24 hours I then cover it with silicone only. I get a nice bead on the edges and a nice coating over the foam. Once this dries I then coat it again, but this time cover this with the mix I want. I haven't had any problems with the foam, or frogs getting behind the feature when I do this.


































more pics to come once the first silicone covering is dried.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2005)

Defaced,

Did you order a tube ofOSI silicone yet?
I have a tube I would be willing to donate to you for testing. If this was sometinh you wanted to do But would like it to be compared to Aquarium rated silicone and maybe GE I and II. 
Anyone else up for donating a tube? 
If you don't want to test it no big deal figured I would help with cost if you wanted to do this.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

No I haven't, been busy with the holidays. I did buy a tube of DAP aquarium silicone and it has the ASTM standard it follows listed on the tube, so I'm going to look that up and go from there. The standard will list properties a material must have, allowing me to have a base to start from when compairing the rated mechanical properties. This will also give me some time to talk to my professors and see how different joints are tested. 

I'm going to start a thread in the Parts forum when I have some info ready and go from there. 

I'm thinking of a three step approach, first looking a published properties, then dry application, then wet application. The wet application will take the longest, I'm looking at a time line of several months.


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