# Red cedar stump



## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

Large Driftwood-Fish-Reptile-Taxidermy-Aquarium-Terrarium-Decor | eBay

Could I use this in a viv? States that it is 50 yrs old without any sap left in it?

Thanks for all the advice.
Christine


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

I have used beach driftwood cedar before with no issues. It has to be old and have that very worn look. I will not use it if it has a sap smell or has strong color to it.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

You're taking your chances, and the lives of your frogs in your own hands.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Based on the color I wouldn't use it. I only use cedar if it's light grey cause it's been floating in the ocean forever. Gotta make sure the tannins are gone.


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

Convinced, not taking a chance.
Thanks Ya'll!


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## nhaislip (Mar 28, 2010)

Yeah I would never risk it


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Curious what specifically is the issue with Cedar? Does it give off a specific byproduct that is known to be harmful to frogs? I've never used any in vivs, but I do have some nice peices I was THINKING about using in a couple tanks I'm redoing. It isnt old, but it has no odor whatsoever and is very dried out but it does have some color, not dark red, more like burnt orange. I know that the type of wood I have has been used without issue in freshwater aquaria in the past and I have several peices in use in a planted aquarium. This of course doesn't mean it is safe for use with frogs either.

Adam, what tannins are released specifically if any that you know of?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Curious what specifically is the issue with Cedar? Does it give off a specific byproduct that is known to be harmful to frogs? I've never used any in vivs, but I do have some nice peices I was THINKING about using in a couple tanks I'm redoing. It isnt old, but it has no odor whatsoever and is very dried out but it does have some color, not dark red, more like burnt orange. I know that the type of wood I have has been used without issue in freshwater aquaria in the past and I have several peices in use in a planted aquarium. This of course doesn't mean it is safe for use with frogs either.
> 
> Adam, what tannins are released specifically if any that you know of?


Do a search on 'pine' and 'cedar'. Lots of info that I barely understand from Ed. 

From what I gather cedar=bad


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm now thinking what I have may actually be a a juniper.

Texas Forest Service - Trees of Texas - List of Trees


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> Based on the color I wouldn't use it. I only use cedar if it's light grey cause it's been floating in the ocean forever. Gotta make sure the tannins are gone.


 
Tannins aren't the problem.. if tannins were a concern then we couldn't use a huge amount of common materials from oak and magnolia leaves to ABG mix.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Curious what specifically is the issue with Cedar? Does it give off a specific byproduct that is known to be harmful to frogs? I've never used any in vivs, but I do have some nice peices I was THINKING about using in a couple tanks I'm redoing. It isnt old, but it has no odor whatsoever and is very dried out but it does have some color, not dark red, more like burnt orange. I know that the type of wood I have has been used without issue in freshwater aquaria in the past and I have several peices in use in a planted aquarium. This of course doesn't mean it is safe for use with frogs either.


See my comments here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...t-about-cedar-makes-dangerous.html#post466087 

One of the main things to worry about with cedars are thujone and other lipophilic terpenoids. 

Ed


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

I purchased two great pieces of wood from the same guy on ebay, but upon arrival, I realized they were cedar, now they sit in the flower bed outside. Some of the stumps he has are amazing, but I won't risk it.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> Tannins aren't the problem.. if tannins were a concern then we couldn't use a huge amount of common materials from oak and magnolia leaves to ABG mix....
> 
> Ed


I meant the cedar tannins specifically.

Anyone ever seen the "coca cola" lakes commonly seen by peat bogs? All the tannins wind up in these lakes and they look black. When you pull some out in a cup it's the color of coke. Never even found a mosquito larva in one


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> One of the main things to worry about with cedars are thujone and other lipophilic terpenoids.
> 
> Ed


Yay! New words I can't pronounce!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> I meant the cedar tannins specifically.
> 
> Anyone ever seen the "coca cola" lakes commonly seen by peat bogs? All the tannins wind up in these lakes and they look black. When you pull some out in a cup it's the color of coke. Never even found a mosquito larva in one


Tannins are part of a group of organic molecules that are part of the larger group known as humic acids. These molecules are water soluble and there is a large level of overlap of the type of humic acids and different materials (leaves, alder cones, wood). The humic acids in cedar bogs are often a byproduct of other plants that favor the same conditions (such as sphagnum mosses) and the pH of those waterways can run as low as 5 (or in some tropical stream below 5). With cedars, the tannins aren't a concern, instead it is the terpenoids which are very poorly water soluble but are well able to cross cellular membranes and are known to be skin irritants as well damaging other organ systems such as the liver. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Yay! New words I can't pronounce!


Thujone Thujone - Medical Definition and More from Merriam-Webster 

lipophilic Lipophilic - Medical Definition and More from Merriam-Webster 

terpenoid http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=terpenoid

just press the little speaker in the links above....  

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> Tannins are part of a group of organic molecules that are part of the larger group known as humic acids. These molecules are water soluble and there is a large level of overlap of the type of humic acids and different materials (leaves, alder cones, wood). The humic acids in cedar bogs are often a byproduct of other plants that favor the same conditions (such as sphagnum mosses) and the pH of those waterways can run as low as 5 (or in some tropical stream below 5). With cedars, the tannins aren't a concern, instead it is the terpenoids which are very poorly water soluble but are well able to cross cellular membranes and are known to be skin irritants as well damaging other organ systems such as the liver.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



One of these days I'm gonna find someone smarter than you and bring them on here just to watch you squirm  As always, thanks for the info.


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

Ed,
It is so wonderful that you take the time to patiently point us in the right direction all the time.
I really appreciate you sharing all your knowledge, it is so helpful to know that we can post questions in a forum like this and get straight forward correct answers.
Kudos to you!
Christine


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> One of these days I'm gonna find someone smarter than you and bring them on here just to watch you squirm  As always, thanks for the info.


I know lots of people smarter to me, so I've squirmed more than once if that is any consolation...  

Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ed, did you by any chance see the link to the Juniper species that I think is the origin of the wood that I have? My wood has absolutely no smell to it, even when drilled. I'm very sure it is the species I linked from the first page because I was told that the guys I got it from get it from west Texas ranchers who are clearing it.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

juniper is still a coniferous tree and there are oils in it which could certainly be harmful. 

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ed, did you by any chance see the link to the Juniper species that I think is the origin of the wood that I have? My wood has absolutely no smell to it, even when drilled. I'm very sure it is the species I linked from the first page because I was told that the guys I got it from get it from west Texas ranchers who are clearing it.


If it is that species of juniper then the heart wood should have been aromatic. It is possible that most of the resins are gone.. A quick way to check is to use some of the wood particles from the deeper part of the drill hole and heat it or burn it and see how it smells.. but if you can't smell any aromatics in the dust and aren't clogged up or have some other nasal dysfuntion, it should be safe. 
How sure are you of that identification? 

Ed


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## radiata (Jul 24, 2010)

Is there an issue with what this guy is selling in eBay? It has a nice appearance, and I see no reference to "cedar" in his posts. Exactly what is the wood being offered? How does one know it is 50 years old?

TIA...


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