# Newbie to frogs



## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

After keeping freshwater fish/inverts for the past couple years I finally got my tank for a paludarium. Amphibious creatures will be an entirely new experience for me but I can't wait.

As for stocking I have a couple questions:

I read that the poison dart frogs are mostly terrestrial, what would be the best species to get as close as possible to an equal portion of time spent on land as spent in water?

I was hoping to have as much bio-diversity in the tank as possible, however I know mixing other animals such as geckos and other lizards generally doesn't work well. What species would allow me to have the most diversity while maintaining a peaceful community?

Thanks for your time! 

Here's the tank, it measured out to be a 38 gallon.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

fieldnstream said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


Someone suggested in that thread that leaf chameleons would really be the only possibility and only with a large tank, approx. how large do you think a tank would need to be to have that combination?


Also I'm planning on slanting the poly-carbonate divide between the water portion and the land portion in order to maximize space usage. If this divider made a U-shape do you guys think that would be enough to structurally support it (assuming I fill the soil side at the same time as the water side) without additional supports?


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Mixing is always a fiery topic, but given you said you're new to the world of herps, I would definately suggest you get your feet wet with a single species before even considering mixing anything. Also, the chameleons you speak of are of Madagascan descent, while darts are from central/south America.

Pat


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

yes, start with one species and do not mix. I do not know of any kind of poison dart frogs that like water features. I would start out with tinctorius or leucomelas if I were you.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I agree. Let's please become familiar w/ the DART FROG phenomenon before considering the jumping on over into what could be a MOSH PIT of a PLAYGROUND 

Your tank dimensions---I imagine, running horizontal---lend to some nice dimensions for a tank for sure, and you can certainly setup something of a beautiful niche for some terrestrial animals.......please check out the following care sheets for consideration, all make compelling cases based on your tank and possible group situations:

Adelphobates galactonotus --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/17152-dendrobates-galactonotus-intermediate.html 

Phyllobates aurotaenia --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/17151-phyllobates-aurotaenia-intermediate.html

Phyllobates vittatus --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13545-phyllobates-vittatus-novice.html

Phyllobates terribilis and Phyllobates bicolor --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13856-phyllobates-terribilis-bicolor-novice.html

Dendrobates auratus --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/14619-dendrobates-auratus-novice.html

Dendrobates leucomelas --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13015-dendrobates-leucomelas-novice.html

All great beginner frogs that can coexist communally without fault. What's more, they are all nice sized animals. Though P. terribilis pushes that envelope for certain, and with that in mind, I probably wouldn't do more than a TRIO in your tank!

Make sure to become VERY familiar w/ fruit flies and culturing as well, they shall be the staple food source for darts:

One of the sponsors has a nice guide(and even nicer products for sale) in JOSH's FROGS --
Josh’s Frogs How-To Guides » Fruit Flies

Check out Josh's video on culturing the flies --





His video on feeding the flies to the frogs --






Time for you to do some reading my friend 



Alex


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

patm said:


> Mixing is always a fiery topic, but given you said you're new to the world of herps, I would definately suggest you get your feet wet with a single species before even considering mixing anything. Also, the chameleons you speak of are of Madagascan descent, while darts are from central/south America.
> 
> Pat


Sounds good, thanks for the advice! I'll stick with just a single species for now.

Just got back from Ace with some supplies, time to start scapin!


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice guys!

Haha yeah I need to catch up on the reading, so burned out from a DIY led project I'm starting on a nano reef tank right now lol.

Approximately how much time do your Dendro's spend in the water, if at all?


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## Mer_ (Sep 11, 2011)

Dendros arent really big when it comes to spending time in water, and I have read that they are not extremely proficient swimmers. 

I dont even have any "body" of water in my tanks and my frogs seem content.

I would go as far as to say that most dendros are almost completely terrestrial.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Definitely not "semi aquatic" like the popular firebelly toad.

Alas, a small body of water can play another role for your frogs: a tad deposition location. Remember, once mature, it doesn't take much to get these guys going...and if you have water in there(sometimes all it takes is a small cup of water), the male will drop said tadpoles into it....with which you can then remove, to care for yourself!

Which prompts more reading of course, the tadpole variety --
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/20854-tadpole-care.html

You're turning into quite the bookworm now, aren't you? 


Alex


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

I agree with Yours, They are not semi aquatic, but do require very high humidity.


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

Mer_ said:


> Dendros arent really big when it comes to spending time in water, and I have read that they are not extremely proficient swimmers.
> 
> I dont even have any "body" of water in my tanks and my frogs seem content.
> 
> I would go as far as to say that most dendros are almost completely terrestrial.





frog dude said:


> I agree with Yours, They are not semi aquatic, but do require very high humidity.


Hmm, bummer, I was really hoping to have something very amphibious, is there anything that comes to your minds that would meet this aspect and still be as attractive as dendro's? 



yours said:


> Definitely not "semi aquatic" like the popular firebelly toad.
> 
> Alas, a small body of water can play another role for your frogs: a tad deposition location. Remember, once mature, it doesn't take much to get these guys going...and if you have water in there(sometimes all it takes is a small cup of water), the male will drop said tadpoles into it....with which you can then remove, to care for yourself!
> 
> ...


I'll have to look into the firebelly toad, thanks! And I appreciate those videos!
That's a good point about the tadpoles though, I may just have to deal with having fish in water and dendro's on land, imo they look so much more vivid and beautiful than toads.

Haha yeah ever since a couple years ago I've been obsessed with tanks, always looked at youtube videos of paludariums but never did too much research because the girlfriend was reluctant to let me add a 4th tank. Finally convinced her


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## bratyboy2 (Jan 29, 2010)

I honestly wouldnt do any deep body of water right now...if your dead set on PDF's then go simple to start....


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

bratyboy2 said:


> I honestly wouldnt do any deep body of water right now...if your dead set on PDF's then go simple to start....


Thats a shame, do they not do well in deep bodies of water? I was planning on a water depth of about 7"-9" with a beach of sorts to get back on land.


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

Not at all. They do not have webbing between their toes, for swimming. Because again, they are not semi-aquatic. I'd stick to 2-3"(4 at most) w/ gravel/stone/rocks in the water to make it even less deep.............

You want to gear your tank around for your frogs, and not the other way around y'see....

You can do a lil' creek, or a lil' pond in the corner, even a lil' waterfall....but I would not do a full blown big body of water, it's just not worth the risks to be taken, Megamax42. Definitely not, in any way-shape-or-form bud! 

That said, firebelly toads are great, fun, communal, highly active and entertaining in their own right....and you can definitely cater a 1/3 land to 2/3 water tank in their favor.......as they'll spend as much(arguably more) of their time in the water, as on the land portion of the tank. You'd of course have to run a filtration system for the water, though aquatic plants could help you with that too....

On the other hand, they don't call Poison Dart frogs the "Jewels of the Rainforest" for nothing! There really is NO comparison, aesthetically for the iris, as these darling amphibians.......just as you mentioned, the toads will seem quite "dull" in comparison visually.........the nice thing about a dart frog setup also, is once you have it setup..it is pretty self sustaining, maintenance free.........all you have to do, is drop fruit flies in there every few days, and mist regularly.................the "NICHE" will take care of the rest! 



Alex


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

yours said:


> Not at all. They do not have webbing between their toes, for swimming. Because again, they are not semi-aquatic. I'd stick to 2-3"(4 at most) w/ gravel/stone/rocks in the water to make it even less deep.............
> 
> You want to gear your tank around for your frogs, and not the other way around y'see....
> 
> ...



Well that being said I may, unfortunately, have to make this a firebelly toad tank, for amphibious was the key element I was looking for. I was reading up on the toads though and it seems like they excrete a toxin that can be harmful to other amphibians and fish, is this proven to be harmful in fairly large tanks? If so is there any amphibian that would be very amphibious, compatible with fish, and possibly compatible with other amphibians?

As for the filter, I bought an Aquatop CF-500 (generic canister filter, cheap but surprisingly good quality) for my 40 gallon fw tank and I think I may buy the step down from that filter for the paludarium. I am also wanting to have a very densely planted tank, with terrestrial, aquatic and immersed plants. I was initially planning a rain bar, but for the time being I'll just be watering the terrestrial plants manually. I also will put a layer of large gravel underneath the soil portion and run airline hose down to it in order to have a means of evacuating water in the case of an overwatering.


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

I've read of quite a few success stories keeping anoles and tree frogs together, if I kept them in low numbers do you think this would work out?
I plan on keeping the tank heavily planted, along with lots of ledges, sticks and caves for them to seek privacy.


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

Or perhaps newts and tree frogs as the newts will be mostly aquatic and the tree frogs almost entirely terrestrial?
The only problem I see (as a newbie) is the toxins excreted by the newts being harmful to the frogs, however I plan on having quite a lot of filtration, as well as a lot of plants. Do you guy's think this would be a problem?

Edit: Just researched this some more and found newts and tree frogs won't work, looks like I'm back to tree frogs and anoles.
Any other suggestions for a compatible multi-species tank are very welcome though


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I would suggest just picking ONE animal type, be it firebelly toad, firebelly newt, Phyllobates bicolor(etc etc etc) and sticking with IT. It's all ready been established that you can have a group of animals in the tank you are trying to run. 

You would a vertical setup---as opposed to your horizontal---for tree frogs, as they are arboreal animals and, again it's important to cater to the needs of the animal more than anything else.

But do your homework. Research your animal up. You don't need to mix. Not without experience care-taking for BOTH kinds of animals separately and without a huge tank(a 38 gallon does not qualify in the least). If I were you, I'd again look into getting one animal type, and then making the best damnable slice of heaven home for that animal type! HE-SHE-THEY would be ALL the more happier at the end, and so will you!

There is no need to force what need not be forced. Only learn from experience, and enjoy! 



Alex


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

yours said:


> I would suggest just picking ONE animal type, be it firebelly toad, firebelly newt, Phyllobates bicolor(etc etc etc) and sticking with IT. It's all ready been established that you can have a group of animals in the tank you are trying to run.
> 
> You would a vertical setup---as opposed to your horizontal---for tree frogs, as they are arboreal animals and, again it's important to cater to the needs of the animal more than anything else.
> 
> ...


Cool, i really appreciate your help and advice, as much as it pains me to say I guess I'll go with one species of reptile/amphibian. 

I remember you saying that the firebelly toad was a very amphibious inhabitant (when I say "very amphibious" I mean spends close to an equal amount of time in water as they do on land), is this the amphibian you would most recommend for what I'm looking for? I'm hoping for something that will make great use of both the land and water

I tried to do some googling but couldn't think of the right word for what I'm coining as "very amphibious". 

I would very much like a newt/salamander however I fear it would be a poor use of the large amount of land that will be in the tank.


By the way, I decided to ditch the partition idea and instead go with something similar to a 'false bottom', I got the inspiration from this thread:
Paludarium 120L with waterfall - Paludariums - Aquatic Plant Central


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I think the toads will be a lot more active for you than newts or salamanders.

This book is a nice one for them --
Amazon.com: Fire-bellied Toad (Quick & Easy) (9780793810161): Tom Mazorlig: Books

Also check out this video --





I want to point out however, that the crickets in the video are a little too big to be feeding to those toads. You generally want to feed insects that are smaller than the width between the frogs eyes. They can take bigger, but it's not worth the risk of compaction or choking to death.

I think you'll enjoy them for sure! And perhaps soon enough, with enough HONEY-DO-POINTS...you'll be back to set up a DART FROG tank! 


Alex


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

yours said:


> I think the toads will be a lot more active for you than newts or salamanders.
> 
> This book is a nice one for them --
> Amazon.com: Fire-bellied Toad (Quick & Easy) (9780793810161): Tom Mazorlig: Books
> ...


Thanks! Awesome advice, I think that's the route I'm gonna go then. 
Is this forum still ok to post a build-log on?

How adventurous do you think they'll be?
The plan was to make a couple ledges on the walls with branches leading up to them in the hope someone would go up there to relax


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

No problem!

If you look toward the bottom of the forum, you'll see a section devoted to other amphibians, and from there toads specifically....it is there you can post your builds/toad-jazz

Toads - Dendroboard

They will climb and explore all aspects of the terrain(but for the most part, they'll stick to the water and shore area and not crazy up high), and are lil' escape artists as well, so make sure you have a lid that is tightly fit! They're pretty bullet proof and long lived other than that(reports of up to 20 years!)......and because of their activity, pleasantly entertaining. The males sound like lil' puppies barking with their calls!

Good luck 


Alex


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

yours said:


> No problem!
> 
> If you look toward the bottom of the forum, you'll see a section devoted to other amphibians, and from there toads specifically....it is there you can post your builds/toad-jazz
> 
> ...


Perfect! Don't know how I missed that subsection lol. I'll post some pictures tomorrow, already have most of the egg crate in place so soon it'll be time to start spray-foaming.

As for the lid, my plan was to have a large piece of glass for most of it, leaving about 4-5 inches open at the back.

Then my idea is to get lexan to fill in the gap, connecting the glass to the lexan using a H connector similar to the one used to connect the 2 pieces of glass in this picture:









Then I was going to cut a fan inlet on one far side of the lexan, and then drill holes all the way along the lexan to act as the outlet for the air. Possibly covering the holes with fine mesh screen to prevent bugs from escaping.

Here's a poor illustration of what I'm thinking:










Do you think that would work?


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

I think that lid is more geared to darts to be honest, keeping the humidity in. For firebelly toads, you'd really want a screen top, and there should be sizes I'd imagine in fish stores to match the dimensions of your tank. Unless you go w/ half glass, and half screen/mesh......the toads will do best with ventilation though, which is the key.

Crickets, unlike fruit flies, will not be able to climb the glass walls of the tank....as long as you are not dumping in TWENTY insects come feeding time, there shan't be escapees. What you can do, is remove any access critters within a half hour or so after feeding time. Don't forget about gutloading, and dusting too by the way 



Alex


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

yours said:


> I think that lid is more geared to darts to be honest, keeping the humidity in. For firebelly toads, you'd really want a screen top, and there should be sizes I'd imagine in fish stores to match the dimensions of your tank. Unless you go w/ half glass, and half screen/mesh......the toads will do best with ventilation though, which is the key.
> 
> Crickets, unlike fruit flies, will not be able to climb the glass walls of the tank....as long as you are not dumping in TWENTY insects come feeding time, there shan't be escapees. What you can do, is remove any access critters within a half hour or so after feeding time. Don't forget about gutloading, and dusting too by the way
> 
> ...


Hmm interesting, perhaps I'll go with half glass/half screen. Main reason I was wanting glass is I want this to be quite heavily planted, both terretrial, aquatic and emersed and I had worries that perhaps the light wouldn't penetrate very well through the screen.


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

After changing my mind a billion times I think I may have finally settled on bumble bee toads, what do you think?
Sorry for all the indecision


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Probably not the best choice for a paludarium...do a little research on their native habitat.


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

fieldnstream said:


> Probably not the best choice for a paludarium...do a little research on their native habitat.


I read they are hills and plains, however some posts seem to indicate that they didn't mind swimming, while others said they tried swimming when they were first introduced to the tank and although they were proficient at it they rarely went back. Although not as amphibious as I would like I think they might be what I'm looking for, assuming they're compatible with the tank. Is the water portion the concern with keeping them in a paludarium?


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## megamax42 (Feb 14, 2012)

Continuing this thread over here:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/toads/79109-38-gal-paludarium-build.html#post700246


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