# I know this is frowned upon but...



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

ok i have a 150 gallon tank with back wall and tons of floor room, it houses 4 four frogs, 1 female citronella, 1 female Blue sip, an unsexed auratus, and 1 male alanis, i just recently shut off the water fall and started misting, im not sure what triggered the alanis and citronella, but they have been courting like crazy, should i set some dishes under the hut and breed them, or just let it pass? i didnt intend on mixing the tincs but its just how it ended up all the frogs i separated aren't courting. but the ones that i did not have a pair for now are courting, lol what are the odds...

oh well just wanted some opinions on what i should do, i kno that hybrids are not looked upon to highly but just figured i throw this out there

the alanis has been calling now for about two hours and the citronella following to a bunch of areas looking to lay? im guessing? the blue sip female seems to be interested at time but the citronella seems to chase her off, but hasnt tried to wrestle her yet? im not sure if they will either, all the frogs have been living in this tank for roughly 3 years now, and also i think the frogs have found a spot to try and lay some eggs, its dark there is a tiny bit of water and large rocks under the cork area. 

question is should i let it happen? take the blue sip out of the tank? of separate the alanis and citronella


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

You are opening a can of worms as stated in the title. I would say to cull any eggs that may come about. We have enough confusion with the current morphs as stated in the many previous posts. I would be interested in the female cit as I am male heavy currently.


----------



## Jer (Feb 9, 2008)

Better put your helmet on...

I would love to see some pictures of hybrids! Don't make your decision based on what narrow minded individuals over the internet tell you, do what it is that YOU wish to do. If it was me I would be interested to see the results, and any "true" dart frog enthusiast would also be curious about the results.


----------



## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

i would suggest you do a search for mixing redeye you will find a multitude of posts that answer your question
but i would agree with evo about culling the eggs


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

well first off im not gonna put a helmet on, im not afraid of anybody, especially when it comes to someone talking over the internet. but anyways thanks guys for your input, like i said this was not on purpose... at the time i really don't have say in what the frogs do but i guess im just gonna give it a couple days and see what happens i think i reacted to fast. im not even sure if there will be eggs, but however if there are eggs i will take this thread into consideration. and really lets be serious ppl. if i want the babies ill have them and if not i wont let it happen, i was just looking for some insight, i don't want to make an argument out of this.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Sigh, I'm really rather tired of the mixing debate- but I will say this:

The hobby has taken a stance on the ethics of mixing morphs and hybridization, and it's one that I fully support. Frankly, there is enough variability and diversity in the naturally occurring morphs- so enjoy that. They are your frogs and you can do with them what you will, I guess. I would be especially worried about the auratus as it is sure to be bullied by the female tincs- not to mention that female-female aggression is something to keep an eye on. With that size enclosure, it might not happen often, but keep your eyes open.


----------



## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I have an idea. Since you seem interested in breeding now that it has semi-started...why not trade one of the tincs for the same species as you already have or just buy adults of each one? That way you could enjoy watching the breeding process and you don't have to worry about the culling the offspring. Just a thought.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I have an idea. Since you seem interested in breeding now that it has semi-started...why not trade one of the tincs for the same species as you already have or just buy adults of each one?


Great idea, Lisa.


----------



## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Jer said:


> Better put your helmet on...
> 
> I would love to see some pictures of hybrids! Don't make your decision based on what narrow minded individuals over the internet tell you, do what it is that YOU wish to do. If it was me I would be interested to see the results, and any "true" dart frog enthusiast would also be curious about the results.


This forum is meant to be helpful to other members of the hobby who uphold the commonly accepted ideals of the community. Your response accomplishes nothing but an unfortunate attempt to stir people up. This is neither your first such post nor I imagine will it be your last without some help from the moderators. Stop being a troll.

To the OP: one of the wonders of keeping these animals is watching their courting practices. I don't think anyone would begrudge you the enjoyment of experiencing this. It does not sound like you are one of the folks trying to make a living off breeding your frogs. As such, let me be the first to congratulate you on creating such ideal conditions that your darts are breeding! As a member of this community just be responsible with the offspring. Don't let them slip back into the community without the label of hybrid or to some inexperienced frogger who doesn't know any better. No one is trying to tell you how best to enjoy your frogs and you seem like the kind of person who understands this considering you came here for advice. All we ask is that you consider the goals of we other hobbyists who have conservation and natural breeding practices at heart. Do your best to manage any hybrid offspring exclusively within your own collection.

Jeff


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

I woke up this morning and to my surprise a clutch of 4 eggs on a rock.

thanks for congratulating me Jeff, what you said really is what made the most sense to me, and your right i do take everything into consideration,thats is why i have setup breeder tanks for my azureus annd blue sips, and i do keep my eyes out for fighting all the time the tank is in my bedroom and i spend alot of time there so im usually watching the tank. i would never try to sell one of these frogs if any of the eggs ever developed into frogs, and i would never post pictures with out posting that its a hybrid frog,
i have decided to try and keep the eggs alive but im guessing the first clutch will go bad., ive got spare 10 gallons i can set up for them

as for the trading goes,yes i have thought about it and its a good idea , but im from Youngstown Ohio and have absolutely no shipping exp. and there aren't any breeders that i know of close by, or any froggers nearby that i know of for that matter, closest for me is aarons frog farm which is somewhat 3 hours away


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)




----------



## johnnymo (Jul 20, 2007)

Jer said:


> Better put your helmet on...
> 
> I would love to see some pictures of hybrids! Don't make your decision based on what narrow minded individuals over the internet tell you, do what it is that YOU wish to do. If it was me I would be interested to see the results, and any "true" dart frog enthusiast would also be curious about the results.



Just because the answers you receive aren't things you want to hear doesn't mean that the people on here are narrow minded. I've yet to hear a positive reason to produce hybrids. A "true enthusiast" would most likely be more interested in the conservation of the frogs and not producing mutts.


that being said,redeyetroyfrog they are your frogs and its ultimately your choice on what to do with them. If you want to raise them for your own personal enjoyment/curiosity no one can stop you. But for the sake of the hobby you must do all you can to keep the frogs from entering the hobby. If this means euthanizing if you ever have to sell your collection then so be it. But anyways I guess keep us updated on the eggs.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

....


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

I would never enter these frogs into the hobby, it is curiosity, and i should never have a reason to sell my collection so hopefully everything works out. I will keep you updated, the first clutch actually looks like it may have some hope, from the looks of the color of the eggs, ill leave them on the rock for a couple of days and see what happens,
for the frogs sake, should i change any of their habits for post egg laying, like food amoun?, more or less? or should i just keep doing what i have been doing?


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I would never enter these frogs into the hobby, it is curiosity,


What are your plans for with the hybrids once they morph? Tincs being the breeders they are you may have quite a number on your hands unless you start destroying eggs.

Rich


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Jer said:


> If it was me I would be interested to see the results, and any "true" dart frog enthusiast would also be curious about the results.


This coming from someone with 89 posts and less than a month on the board, just to put this into context. There are people on here that do this for a living and have dedicated their life to amphibians and darts especially, but apparently Jer is far more experienced and is a "true" enthusiast while the ones that have dedicated their lives are just rookies and he/she would know better than them and you should listen to him/her.... whatever. Just to put this post into context..



> as for the trading goes,yes i have thought about it and its a good idea , but im from Youngstown Ohio and have absolutely no shipping exp. and there aren't any breeders that i know of close by, or any froggers nearby that i know of for that matter, closest for me is aarons frog farm which is somewhat 3 hours away


Well, there is a guy named Kyle (hint hint, owner of this board) that is in Columbus as well Brian's Tropicals (a sponser) in Ohio just off the top of my head, Rich Frye is in Chicago now, plus there are LOTS of hobbiests in Ohio and most definitely Michigan (hell, there is a michigan froggers group that is damn big). Honestly, this will sound mean, but you either have no real desire to try and pair up your frogs or that is just an excuse to carry this on and hopefully have something to fall back on as a "reason". If you're serious about trying to find mates for your frogs then post a want ad or contact one of the people above. You continue to say this was not intentional but yet you should know what happens when you put a male and female together of breeding age and you still do nothing to fix it.... I call BS. If you truly didn't intend for this to happen you would have separated them when you saw breeding behavior (actually you would have never had em together in the first place), so don't try to play innocent. I'm not going to harp on you "don't breed em" because it's already too late and you obviously don't care, but I will say don't let them get into the hobby because someone who doesn't know better may get ahold of them and then they breed them, etc... just bad things can happen. I know you say you would never let them out in the hobby, but you also said you didn't intend for this to happen yet you do nothing to make it right so I have a hard time believing you unfortunately. I know this comes across as mean or rude, but call it brutal honesty as I really would rather you hear the truth than sugar coat it.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I would never enter these frogs into the hobby, it is curiosity, and i should never have a reason to sell my collection so hopefully everything works out. I will keep you updated, the first clutch actually looks like it may have some hope, from the looks of the color of the eggs, ill leave them on the rock for a couple of days and see what happens,
> for the frogs sake, should i change any of their habits for post egg laying, like food amoun?, more or less? or should i just keep doing what i have been doing?


I know many of us in the hobby appreciate you being responsible towards the frogs and towards the hobby. I would think that many members here look down upon hybrids mainly because they know that if they are introduced into the hobby they can damage a lot of work people do to keep the bloodlines and genetics in order. So: Thank you.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

right now im just going to see what happens, they may not even breed more than once? but if they do like you say then i will have to start destroying the eggs. if thats what has to be done then thats what it is, so as of right now im just gonna play it day by day. i mean, its only been 2 hours since i was aware there were eggs, and the male Alanis is sitting close by the rock where the eggs are, hiding behind a piece of cork, and i the female Citronella sitting on top of a piece of wood pretty close by the rock as well, i have not seen the citronella in about an hour i think shes hiding under the piece of wood she was on top of earlier


i really did not mean for this to happen, the first day i saw signs of activity was yesterday, so i was gonna see how they acted today, if they were still courting then i would have separated them but today there were eggs, so now im in this position, it was not BS, and I didnt put the frogs in at breeding age, they grew up in this tank since froglets. and there has never been signs of breeding before yesterday. they have been in the tank for some 3 years now. Ya maybe i havent looked hard enough for tank mates in the area, ive only been on the board for maybe a month or so, so i just recently found out kyle was in Cbus. 

with all that being said, im not offended by what you said, im a brutally honest person as well. i understand everyones disappointment in a hybrid frog, but im telling everyone this, I AM NOT GOING TO LET ANY FROGLETS THAT HAVE COME FROM THESE PARENTS ENTER THE HOBBY. so everyone relax! This frog might be a really frog that i would have in my collection so im just interested and curious to see what these frogs create. IF ANYTHING....


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

When tincs get going, they REALLY get going- and the fact that most hobbyists : (a) tend to overfeed and (b)keep their tanks super humid keeps the frogs in near constant breeding cycle. I'd separate first and foremost (sounds like you have some extra tanks around), and be prepared to cull lots of eggs once your 'curiosity' has been satiated.


----------



## joshuabradley1 (Feb 21, 2008)

I just logged on to post a question about this. Wondering if any hybrids have been created. I'll just watch this thread and see what comes about. I would like to see them. People have been hybridizing birds for a long time.


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I can save you time and tell you what will happen with your experiment.
If the eggs are fertile you will most likely morph out some froglets that will turn out to look like an AlaniCit. Which sounds strangely like what they will continue to produce. AlaniCity Hybrids . Hybrids nobody wants. Well, Jer may take some off your hands :wink: . These frogs live many , many years in the right conditions and unless you are willing to house and care for a lot of AlaniCits I would move frogs and find mates. They are out there to be found. Heck , if you want to change this bad 'Cituation you already have an offer for a trade. Jump on it.. I can tell you from experience that egg clutches will sneak by un-noticed and you will then be caring for a whole lot of AlaniCits. You will have 'Cit here and 'Cit there. You will have 'Cit all over you house. 'Cit can build up fast. Now if you really care about the 'Cituation, and want more than to just satisfy your own personal curiousity, start takin' care of this 'Cit.

Rich


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

ok im not going to say it again, im gonna see whats happens with in the next couple weeks, if they do keep laying, ill separate and look for mates, to make everyone happy . . .

just wondering though. Are there hybrids in the wild? ex. do azureus and blue sips or green sips breed in the wild? i just dont see how there are different types of tinc morphs living in the same area that would not breed? this is seriously just a question i was curious about.


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Try doing some research on the topic. How about speciation and ecology. Or gene frequencies and gene pools, populations? The question implies that you do not know where the frogs originated from in the wild. Do some research, there are sites out there that give the location data of the origination of our frogs along with quite a few books.........................What do yo mean you will move them if they continue? Someone already complimented on creating the right environment/conditions. You read what Rich has stated about tincs and breeding.................there are reports of 12+ years for these little guys...............

http://www.tropical-experience.nl/

http://saurian.net/htm05/frog_main.html

Jewels of the Rainforest is the first book to cover all the poison frogs in detail. All 65 species of Dendrobates, Epipedobates, Minyobates, and Phyllobates are discussed, with extensive coverage of the dozen species that are best known to naturalists and hobbyists alike. 

Poison Frogs The authors provide the most recent overview to all known species based on several years of fieldwork and current scientific studies. The book contains several hundred pictures, most of them previously unpublished and provides practical information on keeping and 

Poison Dart Frogs Keeper's Guide 
size: 46 pages 
By RD Bartlett. Animals are described as they exist in their natural environment, and advice is given on ways of mirroring aspects of nature to help animals thrive in captivity. Books are heavily illustrated with color photos.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

im done with this thread . . .until i post some pics of my sweet frogs j/k, give it up already i get the point. its not gonna happen, the frogs are separated, everyone can chill the F out!!!!


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

> everyone can chill the F out!!!!


This is a friendly forum. By posting the title you knew this was in effect going to happen. This comment is not appreciated.

These little guys can live 12+ years. That is a long term commitment to these hybrids. Most people have the best intentions when getting an animal, often without thinking about the long term. That is the fear, in one - two - three years if you decide to move on to something else. These hybrids could have a lot of years ahead of them, what happens to them? On the board we have seen a ton of people come and go. This is not the fish or snake hobby and we will leave it at that.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

im not that type of person ill leave it at that, you don't know me


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

No we dont, however you sound more than willing to create hybrids............so it says a lot about you. If it is not obvious on this site, which it is, a responsible frogger would not have put frogs of breeding age of different morphs together in the first place...........and telling us to..............says it all


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Ehhhh these mixing threads are like herpes...the gift that keeps on giving. Anyhooo let's all keep it civil and tomorrow may be a better day.

Bill


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

whatever im done repeating myself


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Ya, you guys need to reeeeellllllaaaaaaxxxxxxxxx!!!
I`ve known Troy and his father for years. He`s already got more time in the hobby then most on this board. He`s been asking me for mates for years. 

Yes these groups of frogs have been extending range and losing range and interbreeding for thousands of years. They didn`t all just appear seperately of each other in the last couple hundred years as some would like to believe. 

At least he`s publicly making it known what he`s doing. He probably wouldn`t have a problem culling them out. I`m curious myself. I wonder if there aren`t complex`s of tincw. It seems to me the alanis, citronella, yellowback, matecho are a complex of tincs to the cobalts, lorenzos, oyapoks etc to the blue, green and yellow sips and azureus. They all produce animals that can look exactly alike. These frogs are evolving to our tanks not nature anymore. No one has to lecture me on the hybrid issue. If this is a FRIENDLY board it wouldn`t be trying to tell him what to do with his frogs but telling him why we don`t and make sure you kill them. We don`t even know if 1/2 the frogs in the hobby are hybrids!!!! 
With people calling brazilian cobalts, surinam cobalts, table mts. and dwarf cobalts all just cobalts over the years, with the blue, yellow and green siips all coming in together, pumilio, etc. etc. etc. 
there are already tons of hybrids out there that were paired as wc or paired from looks. I won`t even get into auratus.

If this was INIBICO crossing amazonicus and vents to compare tads no one would be up in arms(I`ll have to find the citation for that one, saw it the other day, I think on the inibico site).

I think Rich`s friendly sarcasm say`d it best. Something you don`t want to do but if you do this is a board for LEARNING so post your results.

By the way Troy you never sent the last couple pics of paintings for me to look thru.


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

I know it is a board for learning. I owe the board more than I could ever repay. That is why I am perplexed at the previous post. So he has been in the hobby even longer than most of us. So he knows the stance about hybridization, yet knowingly puts frogs of breeding age of different morphs together. He has been looking for frogs for years? I live in Southern California and have managed to find mates for my frogs. If I cannot, I buy froglets and raise them up. 
I thought that I and the others on the board being responsble. We did the research and ensured no hybridization. So all the previous post regarding hybridization are all hot air? It sounds like we are condoning it? So what is the stance on hybridization in the hobby then? I am very confused................


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Because some people do this because they are fringe hobbyists. He likes the frogs and won`t let any into the hobby. He probably doesn`t have the tank space, etc whatever. He`s been asking me if I have mates and I don`t and I don`t buy frogs to resell unless I`m getting a breeding group together. He just joined here a month ago. I`ve been talking to him for years back when everyone wanted the purple hybrid azureus citronella christine hanson and todd kelly had on their webpage.

Yes we want to keep them as pure to nature as possible but no one knows what nature does, what ranges have extended and reduced and overlapped creating intergrades(natural hybrids?). Is it better we inbreed all our cits which may come from one w/c possibly pure pair or mix them w/ nikitas if their from an adjacent population that has interbred and seperated 20 times over the last thousand years if they could infuse new blood? Nobody knows we all speculate.
Knowingly breeding azureus and citronella and letting them go into the hobby bad, IF there isn`t a intermediate population called yellow sips which are just a population that gets some of it`s genes from azureus when their range was bigger and some from citronella, probably not true but if it was you should be able to hybridize and call them the sip complex frogs since they`d disply both traits(blue green and yellow individuals). Whya would the segment azureus and cits remain pure in nature? who knows maybe they`d need to survive a fall from a cliff to make it to the intermediate sip poulation.

I`m just saying the frogs in the hobby are not a reason for animosity toward anyone. Yes, we do what we can to keep the lines pure to the wild, what we know at least. We should all be writing our senators and congressman on behalf of the frogs we have left in the wild rather than argueing about our captive`s here.


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

> He likes the frogs and won`t let any into the hobby. He probably doesn`t have the tank space, etc whatever. He`s been asking me if I have mates and I don`t and I don`t buy frogs to resell unless I`m getting a breeding group together. He just joined here a month ago. I`ve been talking to him for years back when everyone wanted the purple hybrid azureus citronella christine hanson and todd kelly had on their webpage


Responsibly why acquire frogs you do not have tank space for? He does not have to buy frogs only form one single vendor. There are many reputable people on this board and breeders in which obtain breeding stock. I am firmly against hybridization: One may not intend to release into the hobby, so what eventually happens to these animals with life spans as long as our canine friends, sometimes even longer? Yes we should be trying to conserve the wild populations? 
So as a frog breeder what is the stance on hybridization? This is not an argument, I and others want clarification. I know they are your frogs............do what you want is what some have said.........

No argument, just clarification..........What is our stance on hybridization? Please clarify it for us so we can stop these run on threads


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Ya, you guys need to reeeeellllllaaaaaaxxxxxxxxx!!!


Why should we relax? Aaron, I have all the respect for you but I have to disagree wholeheartedly with you. I can say that when I see a "new" member on here talking about all the different types of frogs he has mixed in his tank and saying that he is just going to see how the hybrid project goes, I have NO reason to belive that he has any experience or knows why we don't condone hybrids. You may have the luxury of knowing Troy for awhile but none of us do so when we same the *same old thing* once again, we assume it's the same old thing once again. Troy may be a very responsible keeper with lots of experience, but the thoughts and actions expressed in this thread don't correspond to the general mission of this board and dedicated froggers so I think we all had every right to be up in arms. It is everyones right to do with their frogs as they wish, but as responsible keepers we are obligated to not "relax" when we see or hear something like this. In the end they will do what they want, but it is our job to try to inform them of the right way. Now Troy knows, so whatever he does is on him and by what he says and with your endorsement I feel swayed that he will do the right thing, but I still believe that as responsible hobbiest we should strive to discourage this type of practice.


----------



## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Thank you for speaking up sbreland. I felt for that we were condoning this behavior and I was out of line. again........I believe hybridization under any circumstance should be discouraged, and thought that was the stance of the board.

who wants to clarify for the rest of us


> No argument, just clarification..........What is our stance on hybridization? Please clarify it for us so we can stop these run on threads


Thanks

Jason (evolvstll)


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

yeah well thanks Aaron for helping me out a bit. I just finished school so i was kind of busy getting those painting pics to you, but i recently posted some in the lounge section on DBoard. Now, everyone keeps acting like i bought sexed pairs and just threw them in a bg ol' tank. This is not true, ive stated this earlier and i said the frogs grew up in this tank since Froglets. The ones that i sexed were seperated and put into breeder tanks which i have not had any success with yet. So talking to a couple people, i decided to keep the 4 frogs i had in the 150 gallon because certain people said they would probably be all right, i was told to keep my eye on the females to watch for wrestling. it has been almost two years since the frogs have been in the 150 gallon, and i saw wrestling twice, that was within the first month of them being in there. There was no intentional breeding going on here, i didnt want this to happen... I want it to HAPPEN IN MY OTHER TANKS!!!, so yes i was surprised about this. I have already stated that this is not going to happen because i can see how upset its made everyone towards me. i dont believe this is really fair, because if you are strongly opinionated an bias towards the hybridization thing then thats fine, kinda like the earlier replys i was getting,those were OK. but then when people start coming at me and telling me im this and im that, thats just not what a forum is suppost to be about. I have not said one thing about anyone else, the only one who did was Jer, he said you were all narrow minded. I would never try and disrespect someone over the internet thats not who i am, and thats not what im about. The bottom line is this is not happening, i wrote that like 5 posts back, but apparently people aren't reading thoroughly. Aaron i thank you once again...
now lets let this thread be over


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, Troy, I'm happy to let this thread die and I look forward to you being an active member of the board. I'll admit, I get a little cranky when the mixed species circular argument raises its ugly head every couple of weeks.


----------



## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

I second that: it does get old, I'm not sure, but perhaps some of the well established members on here could write a short paragraph, polietly stating the cons and results of mixing on the hobby... and make a sticky thread in an appropriate section, so that when this comes up, probably next week lol, we could direct them to that before everyone goes nuts...

Dont know if any of the mods would want to put something like that together (or if there is already one?), or if Ed, Rich, Josh, ect. would want to contribute, but sounds like a good idea to me.


----------



## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

elmoisfive said:


> Ehhhh these mixing threads are like herpes...the gift that keeps on giving. Anyhooo let's all keep it civil and tomorrow may be a better day.
> 
> Bill


Since my posts have been the death of many a thread, here's one to stop this one:

I've got this blister, and I'm wondering if I post a picture if anyone can tell me if it's ... :roll:


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> I second that: it does get old, I'm not sure, but perhaps some of the well established members on here could write a short paragraph, polietly stating the cons and results of mixing on the hobby... and make a sticky thread in an appropriate section, so that when this comes up, probably next week lol, we could direct them to that before everyone goes nuts...


 :arrow: care-sheets/topic14178.html


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

AaronAcker said:


> I second that: it does get old, I'm not sure, but perhaps some of the well established members on here could write a short paragraph, polietly stating the cons and results of mixing on the hobby... and make a sticky thread in an appropriate section, so that when this comes up, probably next week lol, we could direct them to that before everyone goes nuts...
> 
> Dont know if any of the mods would want to put something like that together (or if there is already one?), or if Ed, Rich, Josh, ect. would want to contribute, but sounds like a good idea to me.


Been done again and again and then after that it was done again.

Anyways, Troy, I may have been wrong about you. You seem to be a level headed and good guy and i didn't give you the credit in the beginning. Basically the reason why I stated what I did is that your initial posts and comments didn't reflect that, but your followups have made me think differently. I'm just one person and my thoughts may not matter to you or anyone else in the thread, but basically I still hold on my stance about hybrids but gove you the benefit of the doubt that you are and will continue to do the right thing.


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

all sounds well fella


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m against hybridizing and selling them but as stated in the original post we have no clue what we`re talking about. We have no idea if any "morph" is a natural intergrade in a new area or where they came from in the first place. There ARE tons of hybrids, so to speak, already in the hobby and linebreeding is no better. We went thru this w/ giant orage and regina are they the same morph or not? Exactly!! When one end of a species range doesn`t look anything like the other end where do we draw the line? I`m tired of people who all like frogs writing about whether we should hybridize or not. Everyone should make up their own mind on that. No one should have to tell you what your stance is. If nikita and citronella are just across the river from each other and they are considered different morphs because of what town they are closer to and naturally intergrade and we only have one bloodline of each then yes, I`m for hybridizing in that situation. In this situation Troy said he`d destroy the offspring eventually and there is no real threat. I`m for it, I`m curious to see what the offspring look like. I trust he`d never sell them. In christina and todd`s case, I don`t know what the circumstances were but would people here be roasting them if they posted a pic of that hybrid? INIBICO said they`re crossing was to compare true vents tads and amazonicus to hybrids. Did anyone read about that or email sean and rainier schultz and complain to them?
I look at the 3000+ members of this board. We have a real chance to accomplish something here and I see $300 in donations for the cause. How many people have written their congressman? I see more posts of convenience bashing each other about OUR frogs when no one has even taken the time to map out a tinctorious range. We are argueing about things we don`t know about and there is other things that need to be done like protecting the frogs that are out there.

Has anyone written their congressman so we can post a form letter that people could copy and paste and send to the proper "authorities".

Sorry, just in one of those moods today. I don`t mean to come across harsh. I`m just trying to do so damn much for these animals and the animals on my property and it seems I never get anywhere, eventually get frustrated and it comes out in a thread like this. Besides that I took a stolen credit card and already shipped the 2 orange terribilis that are somewhere between arcadia cali and rockville md and have been in a box since monday nite. sidenote, I`m cancelling my credit card machine, all it takes is one to ruin it for everyone. sorry.

I`ve dedicated my life to learning about these guys and trapped myself the same way I`ve trapped them. In a 100 acre viv I almost never leave. I`m getting to the point where I may have taken the wrong route. I breed pets that eventually get mixed or die. I`m trying to not inbreed and match wc characteristic and the one long lived outcome is that if they match their wild counterparts they are going to be EXTINCT! I should`ve focused on being rich or trying to be president or something to have the power to influence, because that is the root of the problem. People have to change or these animals don`t have a chance regardless of what I do.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Hahah...

Aaron...we love you man!


----------



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> INIBICO said they`re crossing was to compare true vents tads and amazonicus to hybrids. Did anyone read about that or email sean and rainier schultz and complain to them?


I can say that this is the first I have heard of that. If they are crossing the tads to sell out to the pubilc, then yes I would definitely complain. If they are doing it as a research project trying to get answers, then i am all for it. Personally, if someone is setting up a viv here in the US and breeding hybrids for the purpose of research or something like that then I am for it as long as they don't release it to the public as a "whatever". So, I think this example is very different.




frogfarm said:


> Has anyone written their congressman so we can post a form letter that people could copy and paste and send to the proper "authorities".


Aaron, I can honestly say I have no idea what you are talking about here. Write a letter to my congressman for what? What would I be trying to accomplish? To make legislation to prevent hybrids...I guess I am just not following you here? I can tell you that I have never written to my congressman and probably never will because I really think that they have their own interests first (just my not very happy with government in general attitude) and I am pretty sure that 99.9% if not 100% of congressmen know little to nothing about darts nor care about them.

Don't worry man, we all have one of those days/weeks (for me years!). i just want to point out to you that it is not as simple as you made it out to be but it's not something to get too upset with yourself about... you're doing the right thing with your life if it's what you want to do. The only wrong thing is doing something you don't want to do or doing something for the wrong reasons.


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Lovely little thread here. I think we'd be safer as a group to talk religion and politics. Anyway, I thought I'd toss in my standard remark that the simple fix to the "hybrid problem" is to register your animals in ASN. Once we have managed lines established, it really won't matter who hybridizes what outside of ASN.


----------



## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

so what ever happened to the hybrid eggs? Did you end up destroying them or are they morphed out?


----------



## Cobra (Feb 13, 2008)

I also want to know what happened to them. I hope you didn't destroy them...


----------



## IndianaJosh (Jun 20, 2008)

I would be interested to see as well...


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I did not read much of this thread but I can guess where it was going to go.............but even if it didnt turn into a craze of hybrid bashers I wanted to say that. after thinking about it for a while at times I thought it got old how crazy poeple got over hybrids and the attacks were so predictable online. But then i realized. ITS THE ONLY WAY TO KEEP IT PURE! I am so proud at times of how our hobby has to this day still UNITED AND STONG against the hybridization of our frogs. I dont care if it sounds elitest or not. And it doesnt matter if so and so doesnt plan on doing anything with these frogs blah blah blah........ Its all or nothing and the froggers and the community who stand by this should be respected. This is the way of the froggers before us who also know what thye were doing. So anyone who wants to go against this can piss off! And can get out dart frogs. The only way to keep the word out there how serious we are as a hobby about not mixing out frogs is to nip it in the bud rigth away and let everyone know how we feel even if it makes somone sound like a prick.


----------



## Bob Fraser (Nov 21, 2007)

Buyer Beware is what this thread comes down to! Nothing ventured nothing gained. I just just finished reading "The Lizard King" by Byran Christy. Food for thought!
Wishing You all well & warmest regards
Fraser


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Im not sure of the purpose of this discussion again as I bet there are a 100 already. Also its not even in the right section... This section is for showing of your tanks. 

Moving it to General Discussionhttp://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/


----------

