# Freezing leaf litter before use??



## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

So I collected a bag full of oak leaves when I was in Northern WI this past weekend. To get rid of parasites and any harmful things on the leaves, I put them in the freezer for 2 days. 

Do you guys think that will help out and make the leaf litter safer to use? I know alot of poeple dont do anything to them before adding them to a tank. I have. But I wanted to play it safer this time.


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

To be honest, I think 2 days might have been alittle short, all you are doing is temporarily slowing the bacterial and microbial growth, but once back in optimum gorw conditions they beginning growing again. some zoo's have used a freezing protocal of 30 days, but in my opinion I think your only safe option is a quick dip in boiling water or 10% bleach solution, the only downfall with 10% bleach solution is that you have to let them air dry for 24 to 48 hours in order to make sure all the bleach has evaporated, I guess in the end it is up too you. That's what I got.


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

Thx for the reply. I think I will try the quick dip in boiling water. How long should I let each leaf soak??


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

I would say once you have a large pot of water boiling go ahead and add all the leaves to the boiling water then probably let them sit for about 1-1/2 minutes. Then remove them from the heat, remove the leaves and let them dry for the rest of the day. The nice thing too is when you boil the leaves the hot water breaks some of the cell walls which begins to release tanins.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What are you worried about adding to the enclosure? 

Ed


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

parasites, harmful bacteria, ect...........

Why? Should I not be worried? I've added things in the past without so much as washing them off a bit, and I never had a problem. But I am just trying to safeguard a bit here.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I'm of a very different philosophy. IMO, some of the greatest advantage of adding leaf litter is not the leaves, but the things that hitchike in on them. Obviously there is some risk involved in not treating, but if you are careful about where you gather leaves, the risk should be minimal. I personally think that boiling leaves sacrifices a lot of potential benefit to prevent a pretty low probability event. But I can understand why some people don't want to take even a small risk. 

That said, like has been said, freezing won't help. I've seen insects get up and walk away after 2 years in a freezer. Forget about killing bacteria by freezing. I also think it is going to take more than a quick dip in boiling water to disinfect the leaves thorougly. Five minutes would be more like it, and you should have some nice sterile tadpole tea brewed when you are done.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Im with bbrock, I think of it as a parallel to adding 'live rock' to a reef tank.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

To minimize the danger of introducing parasites, I harvest oak leaves in the fall and winter. I take only leaves that have gotten hung up on the way down. Oaks lose a lot of small branches in the fall and early winter. Some oaks hold onto their dead leaves well into the winter. These fallen branches get hung up in small bushes and trees. I harvest these leaves that never touch the ground. I also look for bird droppings when I’m taking these leaves. Harvesting in this way prevents a lot of amphibian contact that might take place on the ground. Even after spending over a year in a ziplock bag these leaves bloom with mites and springtails when they are introduced into a viv.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That is the reason I asked the question. The short bath isn't going to change anything and if you have already added items to the enclosure without a quarantine period then it kind of doesn't matter. 

I have some concerns about potentially adding nastier things like chytrid to the enclosure but if you read through the link I posted the other day, you'll see that chytrid may produce a stable resting spore so there isn't much to do in that respect as well. 

Ed


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## naja_naja (Sep 8, 2006)

pfffft i put the leaves in the microwave for like 45 seconds makes an interesting smell to say the least almost started them on fire once


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

Thx for all the input guys. I guess I will just leave them as is. I collected them from very far up north where I dont have to worry about pesticides. So the big worry is out of the way.

naja, I started a coconut on fire in the microwave doing that. I wouldnt even think to try leaves. Those would go up for sure.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I am with Brent and Ed on this one... and I have to say I find it amusing on how much effort people will thru to clean leaves, yet not the plants or substrate going into the tanks... or the frogs for that matter. Pestisides are the biggest thing I worry about, so it's a matter of the source.

Cooking the leaves seems kinda pointless to me... not only is it not helping as much as freezing them, it's actually going to make the leaves break down faster, which is not what I want. I only boil them when I want tadpole tea and leaf skeletons to feed tadpoles.

About the most I do is rinse them is let them completely dry out and give them a rinse before I use them... and that's mostly to rehydrate them than really clean them.

In the end I tend to raid my parents' compost pile for a bunch of half decomposted goodness, so that really makes cleaning the leaves pointless.


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

Sounds good. Thx for the input.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> Pestisides are the biggest thing I worry about, so it's a matter of the source.


Chytrid has rapidly grown on my list of concerns. I know it is fairly easy to treat, but I would prefer not to have to try. Problem is, most states have no idea about the distribution of chytrid in their region. Perhaps some day we'll learn how to get spores to break dormancy so materials could be treated to germinate the spores and then subjected to high temperatures to paseurize the fungus.

I also need to learn a bit more about ranavirus. Can it survive outside a host?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

bbrock said:


> Chytrid has rapidly grown on my list of concerns. I know it is fairly easy to treat, but I would prefer not to have to try. Problem is, most states have no idea about the distribution of chytrid in their region. Perhaps some day we'll learn how to get spores to break dormancy so materials could be treated to germinate the spores and then subjected to high temperatures to paseurize the fungus.
> 
> I also need to learn a bit more about ranavirus. Can it survive outside a host?


Taking dry leaves, in winter time, that have never hit the ground should do a lot to eliminate chytrid and other amphibian pathogens. I would love to do the compost trick or even collect some spongy decomposing wood from the forest but I’m too afraid to try.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There have been outbreaks of chytrid in institutional settings that were in colonies of animals that were clear of chytrid so it appears that it maybe able to pop up when conditions are correct. 

With the ranaviruses see the bibliography here http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/mgray/Publication ... cepted.pdf 
particuarly Harp EM, Petranka JW (2006) Ranavirus in wood frogs (Rana sylvatica): potential sources of transmission within and between ponds. J Wildl Dis 42:307-318 

Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Grassypeak said:


> Taking dry leaves, in winter time, that have never hit the ground should do a lot to eliminate chytrid and other amphibian pathogens. I would love to do the compost trick or even collect some spongy decomposing wood from the forest but I’m too afraid to try.


That's true, but I'm a dirty ecologist and I'm often after not only the leaves, but the invertebrates and microbes that live in the soil and among the leaves.


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