# help me pic frogs :~} see my tank inside



## Guest (Apr 29, 2005)

here is a pic.









it is a 110XH from AGA (48x18x29) with about 12" of water. i have the land (styrofoam) attached to the back wall, creating about a 10x48 platform. some of the platform has a little pond, and some is submerged just below the water line. i have three hollow trees mounted (2 on back wall, one in land portion). i feel like i have plenty of hides with nooks and crannys created between pieces of wood, under the branches, and within the hollow trees.

parameters are as follows:
at the bottom humidity stays at 100%, temp at 70*. the top of the viv is at 75% humidity and 76*.

few questions:

what type of frog would best suit this viv?

is there two species i could keep happily in a viv this size?

i really like the vents and would like to venture into tuhmbs. would these be a good first thumb? from the research ive done, they would. 
is there a good ground dweller to pair with vents?

sorry for the abundence of questions, but i really want to get active, pretty frogs, that will bring some livelyness to my living room


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## Spar (Mar 27, 2004)

most people will say that you are running a huge drowning risk by doing a paludarium.

what type of fish will you be housing in the water section? Darts like to take an occasional swim, so if you have frog-hungry fish (even smaller ones will rip limbs off), you may be again out of luck.

Thumbnails generally like to stay up at the top, so those would be your best choice. I have heard that Vents are decent swimmers too for if they ever fall in, probably due to the less weight.

As for the best bottom dweller, I have heard that Leuc's are the best swimmers.

This combo would at least deviate a little of the drowning risk.

By the way, that coco-hut up at the top looks awesome! Great tank overall!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2005)

Cliff, thanks for the insight and compliment. 

i never really thought about frogs drowning. i do have many ways to get out of the water, as this paly was designed to house a juvi red eared slider. i decided the slider put too much abuse on the plants and left me with no good candidates for tank mates. initially i was into planted aquariums, which is why i decided to go with such a large water feature. i think its a good balance though. especially since the fish are my only color in the viv.

i really like the luecs and have read they should be okay in small groups. they should also use the higher parts of the viv right?

i think yellow leucs and vents would make a very interesting combo.

what proportions should i shoot for, ie XX vents and XX leucs?


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I would not worry about drowning. Most people who have large water features agree that they've never lost a frog. Many darts live near water sources in the wild, and I haven't seen any documentation about people out in the jungle coming across them drowned. It's true that darts are not as good at swimming as the aquatic frogs, but like most humans (who are also not built for swimming) they get along in the water well enough to at least swim to shore. As long as you have areas that they can easily get out, you should be fine. I suspect that most 'drownings' are by frogs who were sick and either died and fell in the water, or were so weakened that they fell in and couldn't swim. 

It's hard to tell from the angle exactly how much land area there is, but just about any smaller species of dart would do OK. Leucs would use the land area and the back wall, though. Plus they can be kept in groups, so you're not limited to a pair. Thumbs would also probably do well, but if these are your first darts, I'd reccomend sticking with leucs.

BTW... Great job! Looks stunning!


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## Spar (Mar 27, 2004)

in a 110g, the #'s of each can be quite a bit. I have 3 tincs and 5 Vents in my 110g and hardly ever see any of them. I could put several more and it still not be over crowded.

The only dilema you will have, and as Arklier pointed out, is that it is hard to tell how much actual land you have. That in theory cuts down on the actual utilizable gallons the frogs will be able to use.

You should probably start out small as I did with just a small group (3-4) leucs, and a small colony of Vents (5 or so) and then start judging over time if you think there is plenty of space to still be utilized.

The more frogs you put, the more chances you will run of fighting, which is definately a cause of drowning, when one holds the other under water too long. Then again, that can happen in a 2" deep water source anyway, so not really a direct problem of having a deep area like yours.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

The paludarium looks fantastic! Have you thought about African dwarf frogs or xenopus (albino clawed frogs) for the water section? That would be a cool combo. The darts and aquatic frogs wouldn't be in contact either.

Luke


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2005)

thanks for your response also. the only reading i found about drowing darts were where one frog drowned another. im not too worried as i had an amercan toad in this viv for a while and he used to go for a swim here and there. he never had any problems finding an easy was out.

also as far as the land, its about 10"x48". i think its about the eqivulent height and footprint of a 55 gallon tank.

these are not my first darts. i had a pair of auratus froglets, that i kept for about 8 months. i also had 6 juvinille golden mantellas, and 5 red bellied toads (small species from srgentina) for about 6 months before a heat incedent knocked out my frog collection and some of my lizards last summer 

i was however looking for first small dart reccomendations (i like the sound and look of vents). leucs though are very interesting frogs to me. i like the coloration and they seem to have pretty comical personalities. they seem pretty bold also, so maybe thats what i should go with.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2005)

WOW! my last post was in reference to Arklier's response. Dendroboard has really picked up since last time i posted here. these threads move a lot faster than back then. this is great, ill have to start checking in regularly again!

thanks for all the great responses!

i will be very happy with 3-5 of each species, and that sounds pretty do-able. ill get a shot up from the side so you guys can see the depth of the land portion. i also have overhanging branches and plants which create a lot of surface area. i dont think 10 frogs would be out of reach, but im giong to take the "start out small" reccomendation, and build up over time. from my reefkeeping experience ive really learned the advantages of going slow and adding a few specimens at a time.

heres a few pics from the end



























its an 18" deep tank and as you can see from the last pic, some of the broms reach almost to the front glass. ill clean that end pane of glass and see if i can get a better pic tommorrow.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Where did you get the slider and the toad? Since you've had other herps in the tank, you might want to take possible parasite contamination into consideration.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

The tank look's great, but I would definatle consider the contamination issue. When I was a volunteer at NAIB Turtles and camen were kept in with an anaconda which had to be constantly treated, they even lost one due to parsite's


Scott


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2005)

i havent had the turtle or the toad in the tank for over a month now. i was worried about the pathogen/parasite issue. i wont be getting any frogs right away, and i plan to QT them for a month or two in a 10 gallon, so i can make sure all of them are eating well. 

how long should i wait to introduce frogs to the tank again?

i was thinking 6-8 weeks would be suffice. i also would like advice as to which would be best added first. leucs or vents?

is there a problem with adding two juvis to a group of three sub-adults?

if i were to end up with 10 frogs, id like to do it 2-3 at a time (for money and to prevent overcrowding).


EDIT: forgot to answer the question directed at me. the turtle and toad were pet store purchases. the turtle about 2 years ago, and the toad almost 3. they had been living together in this set up for about 18-20 months. 

one more question, is there a way i can treat the tank? 

i figure the only ways to get rid of parasites are start over or wait and starve them out.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

All I can say is that paludarium is FRICKIN awesome. If you have a photo journal of the construction, please do share it with us. Also, what are you using for filtration? External sump, internal pump????? Vents in my opinion are a good beginner frog. I have kept a few of them now, and havne't had much trouble at all with them. As long as you keep them fed, make sure they can't escape, and keep temps around 75 in the day, you will love them. right now I have a group of 3 in a 75 gallon, and I can almost always find all three of them, and my viv is heavily planted. A group of 5 would love it in this palu. Take care, and keep us posted,

Ed Parker

ps. As for parasites, depending on what type you may have, there really isn't an easy way to destroy them. Most will produce a cyst and can live for years totally dessicated. The only way to get totally rid of them would be to trash everything, but I am sure that isn't an option. If anything though, just have the toad and turtle get fecals done to see if they do in fact have parasites. I don't think a reptilian parasite would infect an amphibian, but the toad may present an issue. So, just get them checked out first


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## Guest (May 1, 2005)

*plaud*

Have you ever considered besides poison arrows try some chameleons especially brookesia or rhampholeon you could easily put small branches into the water incase of any floaters it would look amazing even smaller day geckos would be nice.just thinking outloud 
cya


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## DaFrogMan (Oct 8, 2004)

Darks!de said:


> The paludarium looks fantastic! Have you thought about African dwarf frogs or xenopus (albino clawed frogs) for the water section? That would be a cool combo. The darts and aquatic frogs wouldn't be in contact either.
> 
> Luke


I don't know about that. Wouldn't the brightly colored darts be at risk of being gulped up if they fall in for a moment? I think the dwarf clawed frogs would be alright, but not the full size albinos.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I was pushing for for a bunch of the african dwarf frogs. They don't get over 1.5".

Luke


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

The dwarf form of the clawed frog is Hymenochirus boettgeri. I posted about them a few weeks ago in the Lounge.


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## Guest (May 2, 2005)

thanks for the compliment Ed, and the info on the prasites. ill have to check with the LPS and see if they still have the turtle. my buddy that i gave the toad to did do fecals, as he was paring it with a large female. he said mine was the biggest he'd seen and wanted to see if he could get them to breed. no parasites on the fecal though, so thats good. if by crazy chance he does get them to breed, he will have some crazy huge toadlets 


i wouldnt consider the large clawed frogs, as they wul tear all of my plantsup, and kill anything that hits the water, including froglets, frogs, tads....pretty much anything IME.

i do have two of the dwarf frogs, and i think a large group of them would be pretty cool. they arent that active though. 

currently i have two archer fish that i may worry about (as far as attacking froglets that may go for a swim). i got the dwarf clawed frogs kind of as an experiment for them. thinking they are not much bigger than a developed froglet. the archers showed no interest (but it may be different with a frog struggling at the surface of the water). the only other fish i have are tetras, loaches, (i may need to worry about these guys) and a single bala shark. 



wort - i have thought about day geckos, or small chameleons. my humidity is too high, IMO, for the small chameleons, besides ive always had a veiled and didnt really care too much for the lack of color on the smaller species. as far as the geckos, i like them best of all reptiles, but the one i have never is in the open. i always like to provide plenty of hides for my animals, and he takes full advantage of them, and i get to look at an empty viv all the time. after a years time with him and only dozens of sightings, i decided i want to go with something that can be kept in groups, and my provide more action, cause when i do see him, hes just sitting still on a log :roll: 

all in all i wont be happy until i get some PDFs again. i found a great deal, here on DB for a mated pair of azureus. i missed out because my 29 wasnt ready. i figure ill get this one ready for immediate shipping, so if i can purchase again, i wont miss out because of laziness 


last week i promised a picture of the end view, so everyone could see how much land we were talking about. 

well im a little late, but here goes









any one want to change their number reccomendations, based on how much/little land i have?


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## hkspowers (Aug 23, 2005)

You could make that into a killer treefrog tank. They would breed like crazy with that setup. All treefrogs can swim pretty well also, so no real drowning threat. I would prob get a bunch of Red Eyed treefrogs, or Clown, or if you want bigger ones you could go for some Giant P. bicolors. Red Eyes and Clowns do well in groups you might want to consider that.

James


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2005)

thanks James. i decided not to get anything that i want to breed. i dont really want to get rid of my archers yet. i have decided to go with tree frogs instead of darts though. im researching which kind i would like to get.

are clowns diurnal at all? i really want something that i can see moving around in there. this tank is in my living room which is why ive been turned off to tree frogs so far.


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

Have you given any thought to phyllomedusa yet? Either the Tompterna(?) or the Hypochondrialis? These have always been some of my favorites
~Donald


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2005)

Your archers will spit down any thumbnails in a second--for quite an expensive meal.

I would've dropped the water level by at least 1/2 it's current depth and added a few killifish.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2005)

The humididty in that tank is almost indefinately too high for hypochondrialis. As well as alot of other Phyllomedusa. Just ask Derek... he knows his stuff on them.


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## hkspowers (Aug 23, 2005)

I am sure that the humidity will be fine since a lot of those treefrogs come from the rain forest where the humidity rarely goes below 85%. The Hypochondrialis will do fine I have a trio and their humidity is at 95% and they breed for me constantly. I would however stay away from Phyllomedusa Sauvagii. They are from the Chaco of Bolivia, Paraguay, Brazil, and Northern Argentina. They tend to like it a bit more on the dry side. Other than that good luck on whatever you choose.

James


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

You can keep P. hypochondrialis at 95% humidity level, but I'd recommend it only during breeding season. These frogs should not be "constantly breeding", as they are seasonal breeders and need a period of cool and dry. Strange you should mention not to keep the sauvagei in there, when in all actuality, hypos come from around the same areas as the sauvagei, dry, hot, arid, etc. I've found the hypos do much better if given a dry, warm time period. Their skin is similar to that of the sauvagei. I can see keeping tomopterna in a tank like that, but definitely not hypos, and definitely not at 95% humidity year round. My opinion only, to each his own


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