# Springtail survivability?



## x5tr41ghtj4ck3t (Apr 22, 2013)

So, I was out the other day looking around and found some pretty cool brown spiders. I don't have an ID on them, so I'm just going to assume they're wolf spiders. Anyway, I went upstairs to get a tank I had left up there for about a year. It was an old failed vertical tank that I just gave up on and left the way it was; I stored it in the attic.

I pulled this thing down and put two spiders into the tank. I don't really remember the work that I had done on the tank, but it apparently had soil from the garden outside in it. As soon as I moved the soil around to flatten it out, all these tiny white mite-looking creatures start running and hopping around and I'm like "whoa, what's going on here?"

After research, I'm very sure they are spring tails. But, here's what I don't understand. One, I'm very confident I didn't see them in the soil a year ago when I put it in. Let's say there were eggs or adults that I missed at the time. How on earth could they survive in my attic for a year off of soil that has nothing in it, as well as deal with the harsh cold of the winter and the blaze of heat in the summer? Are they particularly hearty creatures? And is it safe to use them in a new tank? What are the risks of putting them into a new tank, and how on earth would I even get them out of the soil they are in and into a new substrate?


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

If they were springtails from your garden, they are " built" to endure extreme conditions. In your garden they endure cold, drought, extreme heat. That's why they survived the conditions In The vivarium in the attic.

I wouldn't use them in a tank with other animals. The primary problem is pesticides and chemicals from the garden. To breed clean springtails, it takes breeding through multiple generations to end up with clean bugs. I don't know how long these guys take to breed but, coming from this region, I would imagine they'd take a lot longer than the typical tropical versions we use in our vivariums. It would probably take a year or more to breed clean bugs. I'm sure Doug will be along soon enough with a more detailed answer


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## x5tr41ghtj4ck3t (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks! I figured that in the environment, they'd be able to dig deep and escape the conditions. That drove my confusion, since a 10 gallon vertical tank with maybe 4" of substrate would not likely provide an adequate depth to escape conditions (at least I wouldn't think so). But I guess they're just hearty.

I must apologize, as I am not quite a dart frog enthusiast like the majority of members here (my normal forum is losing activity very rapidly, so I've been forced to adapt). So my questions, though related, will more than likely be temperate region, not tropical. If that warrants rejection, I understand (as it IS a Dart Frog forum). I will, however, greatly appreciate any help that can be offered, and very much intend on giving back what information I might have.

So, let me offer background information on my living situation. Basically, I'm out in the middle of nowhere with densely wooded areas and a lake nearby. If my family is not using chemicals or pesticides, shouldn't there be a lack of them in the soil? We don't particularly believe in using harmful chemicals, and since we don't have vegetables/fruits, we don't get heavy insect problems. This IS temperate region, and I am big on local collection and seasonal release (I only keep invertebrates and fish. The rest are released before autumn). So, I would think springtails from the same area would be beneficial vs. tropical. 

Getting a little off topic here, another way to answer my question is this: after doing a lot of research, it seems the general consensus is ABG mix is the BEST plant growing substrate. Now, is that tropical climate exclusively, or could I use it for say... local mosses or ferns (I live in NY)? If ABG still works with local stuff, then springtails from the tropics rather than locally would essentially be a better a better "fit" for the soil, no?

Your information is excellent, thank you. The tank that I am trying to work with is mostly a budget tank (though I'm going to either pm some members, or do a lighting thread, because I've got a slew of questions that research has not yielded answers for. The lighting, I imagine, will be expensive), so I am doing my best to balance aesthetics with funds (I don't think I can do both, and I'm not a "simple" guy, haha). So, if it is so desired, I will post pics later in the evening of progress. Though, I don't know if I should do that here, or in a different thread.


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

No rejections here. I'm not at all an expert, just someone who soaks up information from others on the forum and does their fair share of reading. Before I offer an more springtail advice, what are you planning on housing? I saw mention of two spiders. If the springtails are for the spiders, I wonder how long before the population becomes depleted. 

ABG mix is great for all plants because of its ability to both retain some moisture while draining excess water and its ability to support large populations of microfauna. Other substrates are fine but ABG comes highly recommended and has proven its worth to me. Mosses and ferns will grow fine in it. I can understand being tight with money and trying to save where you can.
Lighting doesn't have to be expensive. Compact fluorescent bulbs are pretty inexpensive. If you can get a 2bulb hood that would be perfect for plant growth. If not, dome fixtures are a cheap alternative. 

Hope this helps a bit.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nothing wrong with trying local springtails, but I would go through the generational cleaning process first. It's not only about chemicals they may carry. What about pathogens? I describe the process here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/93938-silver-temperate-springtails-4.html#post838193
(Thanks for that, Ed!)
They may or may not turn out to be good for vivs. I once collected some mottled gray isopods that appeared to be very similar to the Tropical Pinks we use in the hobby. Unfortunately, they did NOT care for the high humidity of our vivs. I never introduced them to the hobby as I found them unsuitable. That doesn't mean yours would not be suitable.


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## x5tr41ghtj4ck3t (Apr 22, 2013)

I did promise pictures, and I'm sorry but I just haven't had the time. I will probably just wait til the tank is finished anyhow.

The spiders I mentioned are in the tank with the springtails currently. I think they're so large that they do not notice the springtails. I've been feeding them the pestering moths and craneflies that somehow manage to get into my room. 

I intend on housing a Northern Brown Water Snake. Now, I've read all sorts of things on them, one being high humidity causing them water blisters. Despite having a significant body of water, I have to assume the humidity is low because I have not had skin issues with this species. Way back like 5 years ago I did when I tried to use a plastic tub instead of a tank. Low ventilation and plastic create some pretty humid environments...

I'm probably going to go with the ABG mix when I can. I am currently using a coco fiber brick that I've had from last summer (most of my materials are from last summer).



I read through the link, Pumilo and after some extra research, I have determined that it is impossible to differentiate between generations. Is this correct? Splitting a culture in half every x amount of time looks like an easy/safe method. After so many splits, I'm bound to have a culture that has been bred out of contaminants. That's the logic behind it, right?
I'm pretty glad they feed on baker's yeast, considering I work at a bakery and we use POUNDS AND POUNDS OF LIVE YEAST, haha. Slipping out a few grams here and there isn't going to hurt them any. Question though, do I cool/freeze my yeast (to prevent it from dying) or would the springtails eat it dead? 

With regards to lighting, I have SEVERAL different kinds. I don't know which are best or what to do with any of them. Might I digress into a lighting topic, or should I start a new thread?

I sent a message to a user, and got a reply. Highlighted here:


anonymous said:


> x5tr41ghtj4ck3t said:
> 
> 
> > Hey, would I be able to ask you any questions? The other forum that I am a member of is dying; there's hardly any activity.
> ...


Thanks again,
me.


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

The reasoning behind the active yeast is that its packaged in clean environments to prevent mite infestations that cause springtail cultures to crash. I don't believe it matters if the yeast is live or not. ABG is probably not the best substrate to keep a snake on. ABG retains a good deal of moisture and that moisture could cause the snake to be overcome by a fungus. To keep live plants in a vivarium with a snake. I'd keep the plant in a pot, buried under a bark type substrate. This way the plant has what it needs and the snake won't be adversely affected. Snakes require humidity but can not lay on wet substrate for too long. 

The generational breeding is all about splitting the cultures multiple times. You can to an extent tell the baby springtails from the adults. 

As far as lighting, plants will thrive with 6500kelvin color spectrum lighting and on average you require about 800 lumens per 12-18 inches of distance from the plant. Kelvin color rating doesn't multiply per bulb but lumens do, ie two 6500Kelvin bulbs = 6500Kelvin but two 1000 lumen bulbs = 2000 lumens. Thankfully the snake doesnt require lighting so it makes lighting selection really easy. All they require is a hot basking area. I hope this helps.


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## x5tr41ghtj4ck3t (Apr 22, 2013)

That does help tremenedously!

So, for the springtails, should I refrain from using yeast straight from the bakery (they are kept in 1 lb blocks wrapped in plastic and stored in boxes in a very cold cooler)?

Let me give a visual of what a budget tank (using pretty much everything from last summer) looks like: 

















It's not a very professional job, but it's the best I could do. Now, I DO have eggcrate and water-permeable weedblock, BUT I have tried over and over and over again and simply can't get the art of cutting those things right. And If I DO manage to cut it right, I can't get the "look" that I want. I'm just going to save them for the vertical tank I plan on some day getting around to (which will be far more closely related to this forum, and I imagine much easier to do) I figured glass would be easier (which is what that dome is made of). Simple math calculations, easy to silicone, etc. The only issue would be substrate locking in water, so I'm thinking about skipping the ABG and just using the cocofiber. No plants (or springtails) in that area (top of the glass dome). Then, in the middle of it would be a basking rock. That, in theory, should keep the cocofiber dry during the day time. Of course, it's all gotta be tested. The "waterfall" on the right side can maybe house a small bit of moss. 

The "vine" at the top is actually the return hose that will lead to the waterfall. I didn't want it there, but I simply didn't have the right fittings to make everything work.

The Cork bark round that's on the right is actually part of the air inlet, which I'm hoping will blow cold air in. It's not for circulation, it's for temperature drop (experimental). I'm going to work on circulation as either a new fan set, or working off the two large ones in front, which is part of another thread altogether.

The two corkbark halves on the left top are NOT foamed on; they are completely removable (in-case I have to get into the hide).

The tank needs a little more work, and apparently a little more cleaning (I didn't realize that the fibers left over from the rag I wiped it down with are STILL there. Are paper towels a better choice?)

As for the wall (either on the back or on the sides), could I drill holes into the yellow GS foam tops and use them as "pots" (foaming them to the walls rather than them sitting on the land)? am I correct to think springtails are for decaying matter, and wouldn't need to be seeded in those pots?

I'm going to do some research and see what kind of short plants we have around here so that I can see what goes nice. The plants for the water will be both christmas moss and aquarium grass.

I know I spew out volumes of questions sided with thought process and theory, but it's all coming together because of you guys, and I'm grateful. Thank you so much!


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

Plenty of people use net pots to plant on the wall of GS. I suppose you could take plastic pots and drill holes in them for drainage. 

Springtails are indeed for the mold and decomposing matter. They feed on detritus( decaying leaves roots and fecal matter ). Once the springtails are in the tank, yo no longer need to feed them. The will feed on whatever is available in the tank. I don't know that springtails will thrive in the extreme conditions that snakes require. I would suggest that you find a snake forum and pose some of these questions. I have kept snakes before but never in an elaborate vivarium. My snakes were kept in large homemade wooden crate style enclosures and kept on newspaper with a bowl of water, a plastic black box for a hideaway and heater. 

Coco fiber isn't the best idea for a substrate with plants in the ground. The reason is that when you water the plants, the coco fiber retains the moisture so the snake would be laying on the wet substrate. Why not go with fake plants then you can use the coco fiber to keep the snake on.


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## x5tr41ghtj4ck3t (Apr 22, 2013)

I was suggesting that there be NO plants on the land portion (the top of the glass). That would [theoretically] ensure that with a heat lamp, the fiber would be kept dry (as there would be no need to water it) and a single stone could be a basking spot right there on the dome. This would remove the need for springtails (unless they are necessary in the pots with plants that would be on the walls)

The snake is really just a season thing anyway; I simply want some green somewhere in all that brown, haha.

It may very well become an aquatic insectarium or newt housing, depending on what works best (I refuse to tear this tank apart again after last summer).

And you know, the thought NEVER crossed my mind to look for a snake forum? Sometimes I feel like the answers could bite me in the butt and I still wouldn't find them. I will look into that. While I can see why snakes wouldn't necessarily "need" an elaborate tank, I feel like they shouldn't be discriminated against when it comes to the art of housing (and this really is an art, considering I haven't quite got it down yet).


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

Haha. Designing Vivs is an art and a labor of love. I never thought about it as discrimination against the snake. Lol. The only reason I never designed an elaborate viv for snakes was that they thrived without one. Good luck with the snake forum and if you ever decide to do dart frogs, we'll be here to help.


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