# People on Youtube really should Not advertise this



## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl1sBEaCdPo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Why would he mix at all?
Buddy

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

Where there any Leucs in there? 
Don't think I saw any.

Steve


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

WTF is so hard about spelling Leucomela!!!

I won`t buy any frogs from him either.

John


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Buddysfrogs said:


> Why would he mix at all?
> Buddy


Well, playing devils advocate, what reason is there for someone who doesn't frequent the forums to know not to mix species/morphs? People seem to forget there is a much larger dart frog owner population out there than those who frequent Dendroboard... And most people get their "care sheets" from the seller. I'm sure there are many pet shops who tell people they can be be kept together, if for no other reason than to sell more frogs...


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itDyKBBpx9U&feature=youtube_gdata_player
And another one advertising mixing!
Buddy

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

jacobi said:


> People seem to forget there is a much larger dart frog owner population out there than those who frequent Dendroboard...


...then there are those who have obviously stopped by the forums, but will continue to look elsewhere until they get the approval they seek. Evidence of this taken from a reply to the above video.

"Hey i want to mix d azureus, leuc, and the black and green ones. Have you had any problems please let me know, the is so much argument of this obviously﻿ you did it can i?" -13NoahCollins


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

randommind said:


> ...then there are those who have obviously stopped by the forums, but will continue to look elsewhere until they get the approval they seek. Evidence of this taken from a reply to the above video.
> 
> "Hey i want to mix d azureus, leuc, and the black and green ones. Have you had any problems please let me know, the is so much argument of this obviously﻿ you did it can i?" -13NoahCollins


Playing devils advocate again, some people are dumbasses. Oh, wait, That's not devil's advocate 

The ironic thing about those people is that I'm sure they don't keep their frogs for long. Probably get tired of them and sell them on craigslist for jacked up prices....


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I`ll say one thing, those are some pretty serious tank`s.

John


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

They'd be nicer if they had leaf litter instead of pebbles...


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## Gocubs (Apr 23, 2012)

Another issue I see is that zoos mix species in their enclosures. If a zoo does it, people assume it is ok.


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Steverd said:


> Where there any Leucs in there?
> Don't think I saw any.
> 
> Steve


There's a little text box in the video when he's filming the left side of the tank pointing out a leuc hiding under a plant.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Oh, no! She's BACK!!

Yes, I have a mixed tank. It's been that way for 10 yrs now. No, I do not have any Frankenleucs or Azuerasaurus, never have. There are some elements in a controlled enclosure that need to be met before the frogs want to breed. In addition, my tank is 150gal and it houses 7 frogs, not a single one is hybrid, all fat and healthy and growing old. These are my babies.

I have two other tanks that house single pairs that may or may not breed. Mixing can be done, and it is done because people don't know any better. I've been active on the boards since I started with Kingsnake. I'm aware that a hybrid frog is worthless, and I'm all for keeping the hobby pure. Unfortunately, there are kids who want to see the results of this type of frog mixed with that type of frog. Think 'labradoodles', 'cockapoos', etc. 

The poison dart frog hobby is still fairly new and no matter what we, as long-time hobbyists, say, the uninformed and those who don't care will experiment. The only thing a new hobbyist can do besides the research is purchase their frogs from a reputable breeder or hobbyist, if they truly believe in keeping the hobby pure. Otherwise, it's kids trading frogs like baseball cards. Of course, there is the monetary output, but there are a lot of frogs priced within a kid's allowance range. 

IMO, the name-calling I've seen in the past is a sign of immaturity. When people ask, 'can I mix my frogs?', the answer needs to hit 'em where it hurts - the pocketbook. Sure, you can mix a tank, but be prepared to suffer the consequences when your frogs start croaking due to stress and bullying. And if the mix results in hybrids, they're worthless. If a person purchases a hybrid, then that person hasn't done his/her homework and is not a true poison dart frog hobbyist.

Okay - off my box, heading for the door....


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

This is all Childs play....YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

D


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

Wow that kid must be really dumb. I had to notice 5 or 6 things that he said were wrong or untrue. 
Buddy

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Some people just don't inform them selves properly.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Buddysfrogs said:


> Wow that kid must be really dumb. I had to notice 5 or 6 things that he said were wrong or untrue.
> Buddy
> 
> Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2


Which kid are you referring to? I ask out of curiosity ~


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

Steverd said:


> Where there any Leucs in there?
> Don't think I saw any.
> 
> Steve


55 second mark. He even points at it with a speech bubble. Haha I was playing "Where's Waldo" with the video


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

guppygal said:


> Which kid are you referring to? I ask out of curiosity ~


Omg, I just watched that aforementioned video - those poor frogs are so THIN! My 10 yr olds have way more meat on their bones, and I feed every other day or so. They do get an abundant amount of flies in addition to the isos and occasional termites every now n then.

It's kids like THAT who screw with the hobby. At his age, yeah - maybe he thinks his frogs are long-lived. IMO, they're too busy trying to find enuf food to sustain themselves rather than fighting or trying to breed.

Kid - if u see this, PLEASE feed those poor frogs and separate them. There are way too many in ur puny tank.

'Nuf said -


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Let's be honest for a second.
The exotic pet trade thrives from people with little knowledge who will buy whatever the seller tells them to buy and will mix and play around with and exchagne as often as they want to.


We got a whole armada of animal rights activists here in Germany who want to shut down the whole exotic pet trade because of that.

And I can understand them considering how many different reptiles or amphibians are literally "wasted" by uninformed buyers who buy based on looks and emotions rather than logic.


Like someone said already: most people will have no knowledge and just replace any sick or dead animal with a new one. Like it's happening with fish.

No one will shed a tear for a dead or sick guppy.


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

guppygal said:


> Which kid are you referring to? I ask out of curiosity ~


The video on how to for darts. I did not post the video.
Buddy

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

PumilioTurkey said:


> No one will shed a tear for a dead or sick guppy.


I will...

D


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

Dendroguy said:


> I will...
> 
> D


I probably would too lol
Buddy

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## brad0608 (Jun 5, 2012)

Like 5 years ago When I was still into geckos ( a hobby seemingly about breeding morphs) I bought my first darts. I got two arautus, one green and black, one blue and black in hopes of breeding a new morph of arautus. So I understand the unknowlegable. I did learn more about the ethics of the hobby before I made a fool of myself.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

guppygal said:


> Oh, no! She's BACK!!
> 
> Yes, I have a mixed tank. It's been that way for 10 yrs now. No, I do not have any Frankenleucs or Azuerasaurus, never have. There are some elements in a controlled enclosure that need to be met before the frogs want to breed. In addition, my tank is 150gal and it houses 7 frogs, not a single one is hybrid, all fat and healthy and growing old. These are my babies.
> 
> ...


You are right, there are people, zoos, etc who mix frogs all the time with no bad results. It's only a group on here that preach about not mixing. Lots of people see no harm in it. Alot of people in EU do it as well and have had no bad results.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Jared, you obviously did not read her post very well, or its meaning was unclear.. to you.
I would offer to bring you to understanding, if I thought that was what you were looking for.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

No, I read her post quite well. She states that she has a mixed tank and hasn't had any problems. She also says she believes that hybrids are bad.

I believe the same thing. I dont see a problem with mixing species, mainly those that wont breed together like say leucs and vents if the tank is big enough. I believe that it's only a problem if people try selling hybrid frogs. If you're not going to allow them to breed or your going to cull any eggs whats the harm, it's your tank.

People can't tell you what kind of dog to get if you want a dog, they can give advice. I knew people that had 2 large rotweilers in a small apartment and I thought they were nuts but when I got to know them I realized that the dogs are well taken care of, get lots of outdoor time so being in such a small place isnt bad for them but people sure do like giving them a hard time about it.

To each his own, just dont try passing off hybrids to people that arent wanted.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Again, totally ignoring the novel pathogen issues including as examples, the nationwide infection and deaths of Gopherus ssp... the mass mortalities caused by assorted iridoviruses translocated by amphibian movement and lets not forget the global transportation and release of chytrid... and this also ignores the threat to the hobby by the petition to ban all interstate transport before USF&W of all amphibians, thier larvae or eggs unless they are certified to be free of chytrid... 

Nice responsible attitude including passing it off with only "hybrids" being the problem. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

What about pathogen issues spread by cleaning or just doing maintenence on multiple tanks? Pathogens can spread just as easily. How many people have seperate feeding cups or tools for each tank? How often are hands sanitized between having to prune each tank? Probably no and not often. I know some may do it but how often do people really stick their hands into a tank then disinfect them before reaching into the next.

I'll bet you though, just for argument's sake, several people will post now saying they do that all the time.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You are still ignoring the creation of novel pathogens and only addressing the spread of pathogens. Ed is referring to the creation of novel pathogens.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

are we not creating novel pathogens just by taking these creatures out of their native habitat and putting them in our glass boxes, surrounded by dogs, cats, birds etc that are not found in the rain forest?


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

1). Kid saves his money or Santa Claus brings some frogs.

2). Folks at the pet store tell him how to care for them.

3). He puts in a ton of work and makes a killer home for them.

4). Proud of his creation and created a video.

What happens next...

1). Blasted for not having leaf litter
2). Blasted for mixing
3). Blasted for not being able to spell
4). Called dumb and doesn't know facts
5). Ignored novel pathogen issues
6). Deaths by gopherus
7). Doesn't seem concerned with mass mortalities caused by assorted iridoviruses translocated by amphibian movement 
8). Really

Quite possibly he is a frog terrorist.


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## brad0608 (Jun 5, 2012)

i know i dont sanitize between vivs, shouldnt it be easier to create these novelties just having a frog room. I do understand the threat to native species.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The fact that the creation of a novel pathogen is a risk, should mean that we take more precautions, rather than simply giving up on any attempts to minimize the risk.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> What about pathogen issues spread by cleaning or just doing maintenence on multiple tanks? Pathogens can spread just as easily. How many people have seperate feeding cups or tools for each tank? How often are hands sanitized between having to prune each tank? Probably no and not often. I know some may do it but how often do people really stick their hands into a tank then disinfect them before reaching into the next.
> 
> I'll bet you though, just for argument's sake, several people will post now saying they do that all the time.


As has been repeated on here multiple times, the risk to the enviroment can be significantly reduced by 
1) bleaching all waste water before dumping it down the drain
2) double bagging all trash before disposing of it in the proper waste stream. Do not compost or dump outside. 

If a novel parasite or pathogen does show up due to sloppiness on the part of the keeper, then the above methods can help prevent transfer to the enviroment. 

So your premise is because someone somewhere is going to be sloppy with thier husbandry methods, that it makes it okay for a larger number of people to be sloppy.. and if it does result in long term harm to the hobby, captive animals or the enviroment, it is okay because someone else was doing it as well... Nice bit of rationalization there.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> The fact that the creation of a novel pathogen is a risk, should mean that we take more precautions, rather than simply giving up on any attempts to minimize the risk.


Blasting, carpet bombing every other thread and every new person that doesnt know better probably wont accomplish much.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bsr8129 said:


> are we not creating novel pathogens just by taking these creatures out of their native habitat and putting them in our glass boxes, surrounded by dogs, cats, birds etc that are not found in the rain forest?


Actually no.. The risk of a cross pathogen emergence between a herp and a mammal is relatively small. There are some exceptions such as Salmonella but the emergence of that wasn't so much novel as an increase in exposure due to poor sanitation and husbandry (example turtles). With respect to the ban on turtles under 4 inches for sale as pets, it isn't because larger turtles are less likely to carry Salmonella, but because the politicians thought kids would be less likely to stick a larger turtle in thier mouths (ignoring that the kids' hands are likely to be as contaminated as the turtle). In addition to the federal ban, many states enacted additional requirements usually requiring that the turtles test negative for Salmonella, which ignored the fact that a negative fecal doesn't mean that the turtle doesn't have it, just that it wasn't detected...... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## theirontower (Nov 8, 2012)

outofreach said:


> 1). Kid saves his money or Santa Claus brings some frogs.
> 
> 2). Folks at the pet store tell him how to care for them.
> 
> ...


This.

I'm "new" to frogs, I have a bunch that a store already had together, bought them as a group, added some others over time. I've had some trouble finding people to talk to face to face about them. Powder Blue's, a big Tinc, couple of Red Eye's, Tiger Leg Monkey, Clown Frog (*gasp* no scientific names! Torches! Stakes!). They all do fine, have done fine for almost a year. I had no idea it was an issue. They are fat and happy, the tank sings with their calls. The tank they were in didn't have a single live plant in it for months. Now I have created a vivarium out of an 80gallon tank, really enjoyed it, started researching for a new tank, thinking to split them out a bit. Watching video's of other peoples tanks for idea's, come across your boards members comments, referring to this board. 

This was the first, and will be the only, post I read. 

I could not imagine coming to such a hateful and vitriol filled group for help, and created this account solely to post this. If you want to help people new to the hobby, change your tone and the way you present your information. If you want a little place where you and your cronies can go to pat yourself on the back and tell each other how awesome you are compared to others, keep on the way you are. 

Understand that for those of us who do come across this board, all you encourage us to do is ignore you completely. I was really hoping to find some useful information, other people enjoying the frogs. I don't know of anyone else in the area I'm in that has them. So back to youtube I go, to watch video's of other peoples awesome tanks and ignore your so called advice. 

What a bummer.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

theirontower said:


> This.
> 
> I'm "new" to frogs, I have a bunch that a store already had together, bought them as a group, added some others over time. I've had some trouble finding people to talk to face to face about them. Powder Blue's, a big Tinc, couple of Red Eye's, Tiger Leg Monkey, Clown Frog (*gasp* no scientific names! Torches! Stakes!). They all do fine, have done fine for almost a year. I had no idea it was an issue. They are fat and happy, the tank sings with their calls. The tank they were in didn't have a single live plant in it for months. Now I have created a vivarium out of an 80gallon tank, really enjoyed it, started researching for a new tank, thinking to split them out a bit. Watching video's of other peoples tanks for idea's, come across your boards members comments, referring to this board.
> 
> ...


I was making the same point.

I think a few of the folks were picked on a lot as kids.......

They are now seeking Internet revenge.


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## kurt013 (Jan 17, 2010)

Irontower you have hit the nail on the head. You didn't need to read this post, just pick any at random, this entire board is pretty much the same. It's our way or the highway. And I will be crucified if it should be spelled hi-way.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

outofreach said:


> I was making the same point.
> 
> I think a few of the folks were picked on a lot as kids.......
> 
> They are now seeking Internet revenge.


First of all, let me repeat what I said earlier:



jacobi said:


> Well, playing devils advocate, what reason is there for someone who doesn't frequent the forums to know not to mix species/morphs? People seem to forget there is a much larger dart frog owner population out there than those who frequent Dendroboard... And most people get their "care sheets" from the seller. I'm sure there are many pet shops who tell people they can be be kept together, if for no other reason than to sell more frogs...


I have to say, sometimes the arguments and fights that break out here are upsetting to me. I'm the kind of person who tries to help people understand each others points of view, and I wish I could SMACK SOME OF YOU GUYS UPSIDE THE HEAD! There's no need to be sensitive, or rude.

Anyway. Where was I. I have noticed newcomers expect to be spoonfed information, while some of the "old timers" expect newcomers to read every single thread on certain subjects. Obviously, I am exaggerating, but it serves to illustrate my point. Is there a way to consolidate some of the potentially inflammatory subject matters into easily read essay form, with links to some of the more in detail threads, so that new members are linked directly to these articles when they join? 

Anybody have thoughts on the matter? Obviously, this might lower the occurrence of entertaining "popcorn" threads....


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## bryandarts (May 16, 2011)

jacobi said:


> Well, playing devils advocate, what reason is there for someone who doesn't frequent the forums to know not to mix species/morphs? People seem to forget there is a much larger dart frog owner population out there than those who frequent Dendroboard... And most people get their "care sheets" from the seller. I'm sure there are many pet shops who tell people they can be be kept together, if for no other reason than to sell more frogs...


I agree. I have personally attempted to give a pet shop advice (to the manager of the store) and was completely shot down. They were placing darts in a 12x12x12 exo and placing a REPTILE HEAT LAMP on the top. They dumped water into the drainage layer in attempts to raise humidity! It is quite tough because newcomers look at how they care for darts and then stem off of their ideas and ultimately the frogs are killed. I have heard pet shops tell people it is fine to mix and i OF COURSE told them other wise. It is ALL marketing and selling and no proper care. THANK GOD FOR EXPERIENCED DART FROG BREEDERS AND SHOPS!!
Bryan


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

jacobi said:


> First of all, let me repeat what I said earlier:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This already exists. Look for the 'Multispecies Reference' thread.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

> Irontower you have hit the nail on the head. You didn't need to read this post, just pick any at random, this entire board is pretty much the same. It's our way or the highway. And I will be crucified if it should be spelled hi-way.


LOL, that has always been my experience when browsing. I'm not trying start a war or get into a scientific debate with any knowitalls. My opinion, to get back to the topic, it that mixing frogs isn't a big deal. If anyone wants to talk pathogens, then what's floating around some people's houses? What about the polutants in the cigarettes that some people smoke? What gets into a tank every time you open a lid?

Again, it's my opinion and I could care less who likes it or not. I see no harm in it. Just don't start selling designer frogs because you think you can make money. Hell, if someone can get a vent and a leuc to breed more power to them....just don't try to sell it. That would be a huge trick.

And I'm sure not going to bag up dirt and bleach water before dumping it, our environment is a whole seperate can of worms that doesn't need our frogs affecting it. Hell, that would give some politician a bug up his butt to regulate the pet industry like they want to do with snakes in NC.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> LOL, that has always been my experience when browsing. I'm not trying start a war or get into a scientific debate with any knowitalls. My opinion, to get back to the topic, it that mixing frogs isn't a big deal. If anyone wants to talk pathogens, then what's floating around some people's houses? What about the polutants in the cigarettes that some people smoke? What gets into a tank every time you open a lid?


Jared, it is clear you don't understand the risks and by your statement it is clear that you don't care regardless of the information presented to you and could very well simply be trolling the threads to create controversy. 




JaredJ said:


> And I'm sure not going to bag up dirt and bleach water before dumping it, our environment is a whole seperate can of worms that doesn't need our frogs affecting it. Hell, that would give some politician a bug up his butt to regulate the pet industry like they want to do with snakes in NC.


 See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...deral-listing-chytrid-free-certification.html

Well, you already have your wish... deciding to not take the simple precautions which would show the regulators that the hobby could be responsible with the risks could go a long way... However since you aren't going to be responsible from multiple angles, then you are encouraging the law makers to go far beyond a simple regulation to an outright ban..... nice to see you are willing to torch the hobby. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> ...And I'm sure not going to bag up dirt and bleach water before dumping it, our environment is a whole seperate can of worms that doesn't need our frogs affecting it. Hell, that would give some politician a bug up his butt to regulate the pet industry like they want to do with snakes in NC.


You state, "our environment is a whole separate can of worms that doesn't need our frogs affecting it" In the same sentence you also state, "...And I'm sure not going to bag up dirt and bleach water before dumping it".
This is very conflicting statement.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Sounds like he has breathing issues. All I hear is "hhssmmmm...... hsssmmmmm...." (breathing noises)


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Instead of bombarding people new to the hobby with 5 pages of bla bla bla that they don't understand or care to Google every other word, maybe friendly non judgemental advice world work better? I want to take good care of my animals but don't want a lesson in micro biology, ventrinay science and dangers of novel pathogens every time a post comes up asking common questions. I get that you don't want to spread disease and precautions should be taken but come on, this feels more like a spelling bee most of the time. If the purpose of some folks here is to educate I don't see current methods working for the masses.

The kid that posted the videos showed here meant no harm and probably takes better care of his animals than most. He obviously cares for them and wants them happy and healthy. What's the chances of him showing his face in a place like this? Some seem like they would prefer pulling his fingernails off one at a time.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Jared, it is clear you don't understand the risks and by your statement it is clear that you don't care regardless of the information presented to you and could very well simply be trolling the threads to create controversy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No i understand quite well ed and i love how you can call me a troll for stating my opinion. Youre allowed your opinion are you not or is your word the end all be all of frogdom? I just stated my opinion is that you wont get struck by lightning for mixing, only flamed and im not torching the hobby. Smugglers and illegal traders are doing enough on their own.

It really bothers me that someone can ask a question and typically get decemt responses but theres always that one question that gets a person mugged. I love whoever started calling them popcorn threads.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> You state, "our environment is a whole separate can of worms that doesn't need our frogs affecting it" In the same sentence you also state, "...And I'm sure not going to bag up dirt and bleach water before dumping it".
> This is very conflicting statement.


Doug, me not sanitizing my trash is truly not hurting the evironment, the govt takes care of that on its own. Hell, the city i live in barely recycles. They only take glass and two kinds of plastic. Anything else and they leave it in your yard..


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Instead of bombarding people new to the hobby with 5 pages of bla bla bla that they don't understand or care to Google every other word, maybe friendly non judgemental advice world work better? I want to take good care of my animals but don't want a lesson in micro biology, ventrinay science and dangers of novel pathogens every time a post comes up asking common questions. I get that you don't want to spread disease and precautions should be taken but come on, this feels more like a spelling bee most of the time. If the purpose of some folks here is to educate I don't see current methods working for the masses.
> 
> The kid that posted the videos showed here meant no harm and probably takes better care of his animals than most. He obviously cares for them and wants them happy and healthy. What's the chances of him showing his face in a place like this? Some seem like they would prefer pulling his fingernails off one at a time.


Omg...thank you for posting that. Im so glad others feel the same way.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Doug, me not sanitizing my trash is truly not hurting the evironment, the govt takes care of that on its own. Hell, the city i live in barely recycles. They only take glass and two kinds of plastic. Anything else and they leave it in your yard..


There's a stretch. What does a plastic bottle in your front yard have to do with creating and releasing a pathogen that the indigenous animals have no defense against?


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

If you stop commenting this thread will go away.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> There's a stretch. What does a plastic bottle in your front yard have to do with creating and releasing a pathogen that the indigenous animals have no defense against?






What "novel pathogen" has been created and released by the dart frog hobby?


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

theirontower said:


> This.
> 
> They all do fine, have done fine for *almost a year*.



ROFL


No wonder people don't want to help. I wouldnt want to help either.


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## Johno2090 (Aug 31, 2011)

So really, what were all saying is the moderation on this board needs to more active. Because as it is this in fighting is driving away potential new comers who would if given the chance probably adjust their ways to a more healthy frog friendly environment. 

Isn't that how we all came across this board? Searching for answers and to improve our knowledge of the pets we love?


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> There's a stretch. What does a plastic bottle in your front yard have to do with creating and releasing a pathogen that the indigenous animals have no defense against?


I was talking about the environment in general, not about mysterious novel pathogens. I am curious though, how many people on here have had a spread of chytrid destroy their collections? Just wondering.



> Isn't that how we all came across this board? Searching for answers and to improve our knowledge of the pets we love?


Yes it is. I've said many times that DB is probably the best forum around. The others are way slow, and posts are sporatic at best often having to wait days for an answer. I think what alot of people have an issue with is the "it's this way or the highway" attitude that many have that scares new people. 

Thats why I said I like the phrase "popcorn threads", because you can see someone come on who has like 2 posts and ask a question and just sit back and watch the war start. There are many many ways to keep our frogs. Some may work better than others but in the end it doesn't have to be "do it this way or fail!".

Sure WC frogs will definitely have some sort of junk travelling around with them but what do CB frogs have that's bad? I've read tons that has said all reptiles carry salmonella, but I had my beardies tested all the time because my best friend in VA Beach is a vet tech for 22 years and could do it for free, yet I never had positive tests. Sure it sould have just not shown up on the tests, hell I could win the lottery tomorrow too.

My point is, just let people get the frogs they want and enjoy them. Stop showering new people with useless technical journals quoting scientific mumbo jumbo and makiing them say WTF? Help them when they have trouble and ask for help, don't tell them about the thousands of things that may or may not ever happen and make them second guess about getting into the hobby in the first place.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

On a side note, maybe there should be a room in the forum where people can post about just scientific mumbo jumbo for those who want to read about it. Maybe it could be labeled Scientific Topics? Might be cool.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

JaredJ said:


> Stop showering new people with useless technical journals quoting scientific mumbo jumbo and makiing them say WTF? Help them when they have trouble and ask for help, don't tell them about the thousands of things that may or may not ever happen and make them second guess about getting into the hobby in the first place.


Here's how that would go:

Newb20469: "Hey guys, just got some cool frogs. I have a couple of blue ones, maybe azerues or something I think they were called? And a couple of leucs too. I built a pretty cool tank for them and they are so happy so far. What do you guys think?"

ExperiencedKeeper2332: "You should not keep different species together in one tank. It's bad for them."

Newb20469: "What, why not? They seems happy so far? Pretty sure they will be fine."

ExperiencedKeeper2332: "It's a bad idea and you shouldn't do it. Without getting technical, it's a bad choice."

Newb20469: "Dude, they're my frogs and they seem happy. You can't even tell me why it's bad so why should I do something different. Plus, having another tank would be expensive."

ExperiencedKeeper2332: "I can tell you why it's bad, it's just pretty technical and so it's easier for me to just say that you shouldn't."

Newb20469: "Whatever man. You obviously can't tell me why I shouldn't so I'm going to it anyway."

And.... end scene.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> I was talking about the environment in general, not about mysterious novel pathogens. I am curious though, how many people on here have had a spread of chytrid destroy their collections? Just wondering.


Unfortunately hobbysits don't tend to get thier frogs necropsied.... However I could cite some scientific mumbo jumbo papers documenting the presence of chytrid in wild and captive dendrobatids and the fact that it does kill dart frogs.... Some other of those mumbo jumbo papers also document chytrid in animals at a number of importers as well.... 

And I've been pretty clear that we are also discussing non-mysterious novel pathogens... 

Did you ever stop to consider the scientific name of chytrid?? It is *Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis*... So want to take a wild guess in what frogs it was first found???? 




JaredJ said:


> I think what alot of people have an issue with is the "it's this way or the highway" attitude that many have that scares new people.


You actually have little or no support for this statement... In fact I suggest you go and frequent some of the other forums like Dart Den and comment about how you don't see a problem with mixing dart frogs... or look at the direct statement on the front page of Dartfrogz... So for you to make that complaint about this site comes off as pretty ignorent of the active hobby in general. 



JaredJ said:


> Some may work better than others but in the end it doesn't have to be "do it this way or fail!".


Your straying pretty far afield here..... in this discussion, it's been made clear that many people in the hobby considers housing multiple species of dendrobatids together as risky.. and that housing species that are not sympatric together is also a risk. I provided the direct references on the damage that had the potential to cause. 



JaredJ said:


> Sure WC frogs will definitely have some sort of junk travelling around with them but what do CB frogs have that's bad? I've read tons that has said all reptiles carry salmonella, but I had my beardies tested all the time because my best friend in VA Beach is a vet tech for 22 years and could do it for free, yet I never had positive tests. Sure it sould have just not shown up on the tests, hell I could win the lottery tomorrow too.


Jared, 
You claim to have read lots on it, but again you demonstrate an incomplete understanding of how the issue really works. All reptiles and amphibians are known carriers for Salmonella however it isn't shed all the time and in fact may not be shed at all until the animal undergoes some level of immunosuppression. So if you don't collect the fecal at exactly the right time, you will miss detecting it. The risk comes into play because people become complacent with sanitation and risk either getting themselves or even worse someone's kids. For an example of how prevelent Salmonella contamination can become see Isolation of Salmonella from environmental samples collected in the reptile department of Antwerp Zoo using different selective methods - Bauwens - 2006 - Journal of Applied Microbiology - Wiley Online Library in a reptile housing area... 



JaredJ said:


> My point is, just let people get the frogs they want and enjoy them. Stop showering new people with useless technical journals quoting scientific mumbo jumbo and makiing them say WTF? Help them when they have trouble and ask for help, don't tell them about the thousands of things that may or may not ever happen and make them second guess about getting into the hobby in the first place.


Actually they aren't useless... the articles document that the facts are rooted in reality... This demonstrates that the information isn't based on opinion or made up... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> No i understand quite well ed and i love how you can call me a troll for stating my opinion. Youre allowed your opinion are you not or is your word the end all be all of frogdom? I just stated my opinion is that you wont get struck by lightning for mixing, only flamed and im not torching the hobby. Smugglers and illegal traders are doing enough on their own.


If you understand it so well, then why do you continue to demonstrate either a poor understanding of the topics or an outright denial of the facts simply to argue? 

Jared, 
you've repeatedly in other threads started up with me.. I can pull up citations if you really need me to do so... and you've got a habit of doing it in controversial thread.. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Doug, me not sanitizing my trash is truly not hurting the evironment, the govt takes care of that on its own. Hell, the city i live in barely recycles. They only take glass and two kinds of plastic. Anything else and they leave it in your yard..


So in other words, you don't think you should be responsible and double bag the waste from your tanks or bleach your water because you don't think it is hurting the enviroment... 
So your okay with a total ban on imports, and interstate shipments as is currently being reviewed by USF&W? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Unfortunately hobbysits don't tend to get thier frogs necropsied.... However I could cite some scientific mumbo jumbo papers documenting the presence of chytrid in wild and captive dendrobatids and the fact that it does kill dart frogs.... Some other of those mumbo jumbo papers also document chytrid in animals at a number of importers as well....
> 
> And I've been pretty clear that we are also discussing non-mysterious novel pathogens...
> 
> ...


When I searched username "ed" and added novel, pathogens, chytrid, scientific and a few others I came up with many thousands of posts. I almost said screw it when I was getting ready to get some frogs. It seemed to me like they were teeming with disease and would be nothing but a nightmare to attempt to keep alive. Seemed like I needed a "clean room" to have more then 1 tank. Also seemed like I needed a PHD to have a fighting chance for any to survive. Lots of good information from you and many others that is needed, but when a person with 3 posts asks a question in the beginner section and is hit with 5 pages of scientific quotes......

I asked a real question in another thread and am curious to hear an answer. What "novel pathogen" has been created by the dart frog hobby, then been spread to and caused destruction to native populations here in the US?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I can't believe the callousness, and casual attitudes from many of these hobbyists. Jared, outofreach, do you *really* care about the frogs you have in your possession? Do you want the absolute best for them? Then why do you argue against what happens to be deemed as best practices for keeping and maintaining these frogs? Are they just a possession to you? Do they mean maybe slightly more? 

There is absolutely *NO* excuse for not utilizing the best practices. That includes, no mixing, using proper quarantine procedures, sanitizing hands between tanks, disposing of waste properly. Much like when someone gets pulled over by the police, ignorance of the law is no excuse. You have both shown to be more interested in dart frogs than other keepers by joining this forum. The information is here and on other forums. Ignorance is *NO* excuse. It's not hard to keep dart frogs, it's not even hard to keep dart frogs correctly. So all the rest of us can assume it you're both lazy keepers. Dart frogs that have lazy keepers, end up being dead dart frogs. 

See my signature below? It's a constant reminder to dispose of waster material properly. It protects the environment, and our hobby. It doesn't take long, it doesn't take hard work. It just takes ethics to do things right.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I can't believe the callousness, and casual attitudes from many of these hobbyists. Jared, outofreach, do you *really* care about the frogs you have in your possession? Do you want the absolute best for them? Then why do you argue against what happens to be deemed as best practices for keeping and maintaining these frogs? Are they just a possession to you? Do they mean maybe slightly more?
> 
> There is absolutely *NO* excuse for not utilizing the best practices. That includes, no mixing, using proper quarantine procedures, sanitizing hands between tanks, disposing of waste properly. Much like when someone gets pulled over by the police, ignorance of the law is no excuse. You have both shown to be more interested in dart frogs than other keepers by joining this forum. The information is here and on other forums. Ignorance is *NO* excuse. It's not hard to keep dart frogs, it's not even hard to keep dart frogs correctly. So all the rest of us can assume it you're both lazy keepers. Dart frogs that have lazy keepers, end up being dead dart frogs.
> 
> See my signature below? It's a constant reminder to dispose of waster material properly. It protects the environment, and our hobby. It doesn't take long, it doesn't take hard work. It just takes ethics to do things right.



You misunderstood.

All of the information in necessary and helpful. I have learned a ton without doubt. 
The information is often misplaced and misused. The kid that posted the video and was trying to take good care of his frogs got absolutely attacked. People come here because they need information and want to take better care of their animals. 
One kid posted " my frogs were healthy" ed replied in effect, they would of lived 15-20 years with better husbandry. I dont think the beginner section should be so full of attacks. I mean its natural to want to get different frogs and color up the new tank right?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

outofreach said:


> You misunderstood.
> 
> All of the information in necessary and helpful. I have learned a ton without doubt.
> The information is often misplaced and misused. The kid that posted the video and was trying to take good care of his frogs got absolutely attacked. People come here because they need information and want to take better care of their animals.
> One kid posted " my frogs were healthy" ed replied in effect, they would of lived 15-20 years with better husbandry. I dont think the beginner section should be so full of attacks. I mean its natural to want to get different frogs and color up the new tank right?


I'll agreee with you there. When I first pondered getting dart frogs I wanted a mixed tank with a couple different species in it. But while researching dart frogs before I purchased any (as any good, conscientious keeper should do) I discovered a myriad of reasons to not mix species/morphs. The answers to most of the questions are here on this forum and others. It may take some effort to find them. Therein lies the problem. Most people don't want to put forth the effort. Let's face it, dogs, cats, most reptiles don't require as much effort. Their food is readily available at most pet stores. It's not that way with dart frogs. The are by no means the most difficult animal to keep. But they do require effort. Effort to research all you can about them, effort to house them properly, effort to culture their foods, and an effort to keep them in a responsible manner so as to keem them safe, keep the hobby safe, and keep the environment safe. So why do people think they can get away with short-cuts and have long term success?


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'll agreee with you there. When I first pondered getting dart frogs I wanted a mixed tank with a couple different species in it. But while researching dart frogs before I purchased any (as any good, conscientious keeper should do) I discovered a myriad of reasons to not mix species/morphs. The answers to most of the questions are here on this forum and others. It may take some effort to find them. Therein lies the problem. Most people don't want to put forth the effort. Let's face it, dogs, cats, most reptiles don't require as much effort. Their food is readily available at most pet stores. It's not that way with dart frogs. The are by no means the most difficult animal to keep. But they do require effort. Effort to research all you can about them, effort to house them properly, effort to culture their foods, and an effort to keep them in a responsible manner so as to keem them safe, keep the hobby safe, and keep the environment safe. So why do people think they can get away with short-cuts and have long term success?




I would think most people learn short cuts dont work well. But isnt that natural for beginners also? Thinking, all these people go way overboard it cant be that difficult its just a frog.

This is the beginner section after all and where most the beatings take place.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> So in other words, you don't think you should be responsible and double bag the waste from your tanks or bleach your water because you don't think it is hurting the enviroment...
> So your okay with a total ban on imports, and interstate shipments as is currently being reviewed by USF&W?
> 
> Some comments
> ...


Nope not at all. I havent heard of any spread of chytrid in virginia so my stuff is going right out back. And you seem to confuse opinions with arguements. There are differences of opinion aplently and when they show up it construed as an argument. Lol


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Nope not at all. I havent heard of any spread of chytrid in virginia so my stuff is going right out back. And you seem to confuse opinions with arguements. There are differences of opinion aplently and when they show up it construed as an argument. Lol


Just because you don't know anyone with AIDS doesn't mean you should have unprotected sex either.
Seriously Jared, that is the dumbest, most asinine reasoning I've ever seen on this board.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

JaredJ said:


> Nope not at all. I havent heard of any spread of chytrid in virginia so my stuff is going right out back. And you seem to confuse opinions with arguements. There are differences of opinion aplently and when they show up it construed as an argument. Lol


So your argument/opinion is that if YOU personally have not heard of something you have nothing to worry about and are exempt from doing something the right way? Interesting.



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Just because you don't know anyone with AIDS doesn't mean you should have unprotected sex either.
> Seriously Jared, that is the dumbest, most asinine reasoning I've ever seen on this board.


Exactly my point.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I can't believe the callousness, and casual attitudes from many of these hobbyists. Jared, outofreach, do you *really* care about the frogs you have in your possession? Do you want the absolute best for them? Then why do you argue against what happens to be deemed as best practices for keeping and maintaining these frogs? Are they just a possession to you? Do they mean maybe slightly more?
> 
> There is absolutely *NO* excuse for not utilizing the best practices. That includes, no mixing, using proper quarantine procedures, sanitizing hands between tanks, disposing of waste properly. Much like when someone gets pulled over by the police, ignorance of the law is no excuse. You have both shown to be more interested in dart frogs than other keepers by joining this forum. The information is here and on other forums. Ignorance is *NO* excuse. It's not hard to keep dart frogs, it's not even hard to keep dart frogs correctly. So all the rest of us can assume it you're both lazy keepers. Dart frogs that have lazy keepers, end up being dead dart frogs.
> 
> See my signature below? It's a constant reminder to dispose of waster material properly. It protects the environment, and our hobby. It doesn't take long, it doesn't take hard work. It just takes ethics to do things right.


No Rusty, I do care about my animals and take good care of them. I actually had frogs for 5 years before I lost our collection because of the power company turning off our power early. Before that I can honestly say that I never really saw a frog dead. I fed my frogs every other day like clockwork, all were plump and looked healthy. Everyday I looked at the tanks we counted frogs and all were there. Sure you can say that I was just lucky but was it really luck? I doubt it. I misted, fed, pruned, maintained correct room temps etc and just let them do their thing. They all hopped around without a care in the world. Sure I had a couple WC frogs, but they never seemed to spread anything. Still I never bleached anything or kept a 'clean room'... didn't see the need to.

I don't really care about scientific quotes or medical journals of veterinary surgery. All I care about is keeping animals that I like in as natural a setting as I can. I never really cared much for people who put snakes in a glass box...I mean really, make it natural. Screw the paper liner and the plastic hide box. Sure it's easy to clean but is it natural?

I like people coming over and saying "wow...this is cool." Or the son's friends come over and say "aw dude ... check that out". Isn't that why most people start getting into dart frogs anyway...cause they saw them somewhere? I know I did.

On a side note, I don't take my dog to the vet either and he's completely healthy. I took him as a puppy to get all his required shots but other than that I don't take him unless he is sick. Vets just want your money. Why should I pay $30 a month for a heartworm medicine that keeps him from getting something he might get. I know alot of people that have dogs and I have actually never spoken to one that had heartworm. My wifes dog was a golden retreiver and he never had these stupid meds and not once ever had heartworm, lived 17 years and had a pretty happy life. My opinion is... sounds like he was well cared for.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

outofreach said:


> All of the information in necessary and helpful. I have learned a ton without doubt.


I agree, there is alot of good info here. Some of it may require some searching but it's here. Other sites are quite dull and full of ads and pictures of the same old thing. Kind of like everyone has cookie cutter tanks or something off a production line, no creativity.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

My question still goes unanswered.

What "novel pathogen" has been created and released by the dart frog hobby?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

outofreach said:


> My question still goes unanswered.
> 
> What "novel pathogen" has been created and released by the dart frog hobby?


You have made it abundantly clear that you don't really wish to discuss anything with me. You only want to argue with me. I choose not to waste my time on you.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> You have made it abundantly clear that you don't really wish to discuss anything with me. You only want to argue with me. I choose not to waste my time on you.


That leads me to the conclusion that you or Ed don't have an answer. 100% sure Ed has read this. Its a legitimate question. With all the novel pathogen talk I just wanted to see the damage the dart frog hobby has created. Convenient time for you both to decide to stop debating and arguing with me. Its a real question. I spent many hours trying to find an example and couldn't.


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'll agreee with you there. When I first pondered getting dart frogs I wanted a mixed tank with a couple different species in it. But while researching dart frogs before I purchased any (as any good, conscientious keeper should do) I discovered a myriad of reasons to not mix species/morphs. The answers to most of the questions are here on this forum and others. It may take some effort to find them. Therein lies the problem. Most people don't want to put forth the effort. Let's face it, dogs, cats, most reptiles don't require as much effort. Their food is readily available at most pet stores. It's not that way with dart frogs. The are by no means the most difficult animal to keep. But they do require effort. Effort to research all you can about them, effort to house them properly, effort to culture their foods, and an effort to keep them in a responsible manner so as to keem them safe, keep the hobby safe, and keep the environment safe. So why do people think they can get away with short-cuts and have long term success?


I would disagree about a dog requiring less effort then dart frogs, my dogs require way more care, taking for walks, picking up dog crap, potty training, playing with them, far more effort then dart frogs which once viv is set up properly, feed them every other day, mist as needed and make a couple of fruit fly cultures, my frogs are the second easist animal i own right after my tortise which just roam the yard and i pick up there poop once a week.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Nope not at all. I havent heard of any spread of chytrid in virginia so my stuff is going right out back. And you seem to confuse opinions with arguements. There are differences of opinion aplently and when they show up it construed as an argument. Lol


Well, I guess the fact that chytrid is documented in Virginia is going to come as a surprise... http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/...north american amphibian populations copy.pdf 


So have fun with that... 

Actually the way an opinion is presented can easily be an argument.. they are not mutually exclusive and it is clear that via the tone and statements you are using them as arguments. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Nope not at all. I havent heard of any spread of chytrid in virginia so my stuff is going right out back. And you seem to confuse opinions with arguements. There are differences of opinion aplently and when they show up it construed as an argument. Lol


Jared,

Actually when we look at your "opinions" we can see that they are framed as invincible ignorance fallacies (see Invincible ignorance fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and are being used as an argument. Any statement can be the start or part of an argument.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Outofreach, 

I have had it pointed out that you are making claims to winning a point since I've supposedly read something and ignored it.. The fact is that when it became clear you were simply following me around to try and get me riled up I put you on my ignore list so I have in fact not read any of your posts recently nor do I intend to.... If what was relayed to me is correct, then I'm going to say that you don't understand the topic otherwise you wouldn't need to ask the question. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

bsr8129 said:


> I would disagree about a dog requiring less effort then dart frogs, my dogs require way more care, taking for walks, picking up dog crap, potty training, playing with them, far more effort then dart frogs which once viv is set up properly, feed them every other day, mist as needed and make a couple of fruit fly cultures, my frogs are the second easist animal i own right after my tortise which just roam the yard and i pick up there poop once a week.


No kidding, sometimes I dread coming home to walk the dog. These mountains are a beast to walk.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Well, I guess the fact that chytrid is documented in Virginia is going to come as a surprise... http://www.bio.davidson.edu/people/...north american amphibian populations copy.pdf
> 
> 
> So have fun with that...
> ...


Sorry, not into reading all that technical junk but I do like your links though. I don't think it could be a post labeled with your name without one.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Outofreach,
> 
> I have had it pointed out that you are making claims to winning a point since I've supposedly read something and ignored it.. The fact is that when it became clear you were simply following me around to try and get me riled up I put you on my ignore list so I have in fact not read any of your posts recently nor do I intend to.... If what was relayed to me is correct, then I'm going to say that you don't understand the topic otherwise you wouldn't need to ask the question.
> 
> ...


Believe it or not I don't have a problem with or dislike you. You're probably a decent guy in person. I disagree with your methods and lecturing of less knowledgeable people. On purpose or not you present , at least in my eyes, yourself as being superior and the end all be all in the dart frog hobby..... or at least this board.. When your challenged, again in my eyes, you don't take it well.

I would really like some examples of novel pathogens created by the dart frog hobby and the damage they have created. I think that is a fair question


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

JaredJ said:


> And I'm sure not going to bag up dirt and bleach water before dumping it, our environment is a whole seperate can of worms that doesn't need our frogs affecting it. Hell, that would give some politician a bug up his butt to regulate the pet industry like they want to do with snakes in NC.





JaredJ said:


> Doug, me not sanitizing my trash is truly not hurting the evironment, the govt takes care of that on its own. Hell, the city i live in barely recycles. They only take glass and two kinds of plastic. Anything else and they leave it in your yard..





JaredJ said:


> Nope not at all. I havent heard of any spread of chytrid in virginia so my stuff is going right out back. And you seem to confuse opinions with arguements. There are differences of opinion aplently and when they show up it construed as an argument. Lol





JaredJ said:


> Sorry, not into reading all that technical junk but I do like your links though. I don't think it could be a post labeled with your name without one.




Everything above only says one thing to me. You couldn't care less about how these or any other frogs are unless they are in your home. Any that are outside don't matter because the government takes care of it or some other such nonsense. Many problems with you dumping contaminated waste outside have been pointed out and you refuse to read/listen to it because you think it's "science mumbo jumbo." That is the biggest, most ridiculous cop out I have heard. If you don't want to read the evidence and facts about your questions, or problems that the hobby is facing, then at LEAST listen to the people who care enough to read and understand it. It irritates me to no end when people don't understand something about science, so they dismiss it and act like the people that do understand it are just trying to sound better than you. That is NOT the case. And didn't you say something about "my way or the highway"? Sounds an awful lot like what you're doing here.

I can't believe that in a time like this when certain organizations and politicians are looking to end or control our hobby, you would not only ignore what we can do to help, but openly admit to be a potential threat right here on a forum that certain people are watching.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Come on, I've already said I take very good care of my animals. It's not like they requre that much work. I'm just not going to bag up my trash into ziploc bags and bleach water that I'm going to dump down the drain. I'm not that anal. If you do it then good for you, I have other things to do.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

outofreach said:


> Believe it or not I don't have a problem with or dislike you. You're probably a decent guy in person. I disagree with your methods and lecturing of less knowledgeable people. On purpose or not you present , at least in my eyes, yourself as being superior and the end all be all in the dart frog hobby..... or at least this board.. When your challenged, again in my eyes, you don't take it well.


Except Ed doesn't tell people they are wrong do to his opinion. He shows them that there could be a problem through scientific research that documents evidence that supports his claims. This hobby needs scientific research, it has helped us on many levels. If you don't want to read it, then take peoples word for it that do read it. Don't complain because it's hard to understand.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

JaredJ said:


> Come on, I've already said I take very good care of my animals. It's not like they requre that much work. I'm just not going to bag up my trash into ziploc bags and bleach water that I'm going to dump down the drain. I'm not that anal. If you do it then good for you, I have other things to do.


Exactly, you take good care of YOUR animals. But all others don't matter right? That's what your posts say.

It's not being anal, it's being a good pet owner and responsible person. I water the plants in my frog room with my tank and tad water. None of it ever leaves my room. And as for cuttings and other garbage, it is either composted in the tank it came from, or I double bag it and throw it away. It's not hard.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Come on, I've already said I take very good care of my animals. It's not like they requre that much work. I'm just not going to bag up my trash into ziploc bags and bleach water that I'm going to dump down the drain. I'm not that anal. If you do it then good for you, I have other things to do.


I'm guessing other things are too much of a bother as well, such as proper quarantine procedures, fecal exams, sanitizing your hands in between reaching into different vivs, ordering fresh supplements, and other husbandry techniques other good frog keepers utilize.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'm guessing other things are too much of a bother as well, such as proper quarantine procedures, fecal exams, sanitizing your hands in between reaching into different vivs, ordering fresh supplements, and other husbandry techniques other good frog keepers utilize.


Nah, I quarantine just to make sure they are eating. I don't do fecals, never have. I order supplements when I run out and when I wiped glass in tanks I just used a clean paper towel on each tank. Just throwing that out there, never had any problems from it. Maybe I'm just super lucky?


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

JaredJ said:


> Maybe I'm just super lucky?


Super something alright...


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Nah, I quarantine just to make sure they are eating. I don't do fecals, never have. I order supplements when I run out and when I wiped glass in tanks I just used a clean paper towel on each tank. Just throwing that out there, never had any problems from it. Maybe I'm just super lucky?


So lucky I think you should play a few rounds of Russian Roulette.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

thedude said:


> Except Ed doesn't tell people they are wrong do to his opinion. He shows them that there could be a problem through scientific research that documents evidence that supports his claims. This hobby needs scientific research, it has helped us on many levels. If you don't want to read it, then take peoples word for it that do read it. Don't complain because it's hard to understand.


Again, we are in the beginner section.

I am obviously less knowledgeable than most on this board, I'm a whole 4 months in.

There are a few people that lash out at newbie questions, then the masses pile on. In my eyes that is counter productive but I could be wrong, its happened before. I mean when a new kid posts a mixed tank video do we want to educate or tar and feather? We are at 9 pages because some kid was proud of his tanks and frogs and posted it on YouTube.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Again, we are in the beginner section.
> 
> I am obviously less knowledgeable than most on this board, I'm a whole 4 months in.
> 
> There are a few people that lash out at newbie questions, then the masses pile on. In my eyes that is counter productive but I could be wrong, its happened before. I mean when a new kid posts a mixed tank video do we want to educate or tar and feather? We are at 9 pages because some kid was proud of his tanks and frogs and posted it on YouTube.


So from 0 to 43 dart frogs in 4 months? Just want to make that clear, that's what you're saying?


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> So from 0 to 43 dart frogs in 4 months? Just want to make that clear, that's what you're saying?


That is absolutely correct.

12 built planted tanks ranging from 10 to 100+ gallons, 2 paludariums one built in the wall visible from both sides at 150 gallons. Currently running 65 mist king nozzles, about 10 water pumps and 5 fluvial canister filters. I know many here dwarf my collection. All purchased as froglets from newly morphed+. Have one fatality, believed to have escaped at some point. 

I'm on this board and others often learning as much as I can. Many questions that I have and had, have not been asked because of the shalackings. I saw so many others getting piled on I just kind of gave up. I see 10 pages of this stuff, I ask a question which deserves an answer and get nothing...... just know it alls telling me its common sense..... I'm a big boy and can take it but just got fed up.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

outofreach said:


> That is absolutely correct.
> 
> 12 built planted tanks ranging from 10 to 100+ gallons, 2 paludariums one built in the wall visible from both sides at 150 gallons. Currently running 65 mist king nozzles, about 10 water pumps and 5 fluvial canister filters. I know many here dwarf my collection. All purchased as froglets from newly morphed+. Have one fatality, believed to have escaped at some point.
> 
> I'm on this board and others often learning as much as I can. Many questions that I have and had, have not been asked because of the shalackings. I saw so many others getting piled on I just kind of gave up. I see 10 pages of this stuff, I ask a question which deserves an answer and get nothing...... just know it alls telling me its common sense..... I'm a big boy and can take it but just got fed up.


I'm not saying it's the right or wrong thing to do. I just didn't want anything to be misunderstood that's all. Just asked for clarity's sake. 
What questions have you asked that has gone unanswered?


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I'm not saying it's the right or wrong thing to do. I just didn't want anything to be misunderstood that's all. Just asked for clarity's sake.
> What questions have you asked that has gone unanswered?


I obviously jumped in way to fast, if I could do it over I would take my time and do quite a few things differently. But that's what new people do I would think and I generally am an all or nothing kinda guy. What should be done with a new guy with a plethora of frogs, punish or help educate? I have read posts here everyday trying to learn, most every new post in the last 4 or so months. Its just the same thing day after day, I can't count the number of times ive read something to the effect.... don't you care about novel pathogens...your hybrids will ruin the dart frog population..... Most all the useful information for me has been found with the search feature. The daily posts I read are full of shalackings and as is often said dogma.


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I do not care to get into any arguments directly, or indirectly, with members on here. I have truly enjoyed "getting to know" a lot of the members on here. I have lots of respect for many on here(with varying opinions). I've really come to love the dart frog community in general.

A couple basic thoughts that hit me in some of these threads...

It seems that some of these threads are like someone stepping into a court room with only their high school education and some common sense and trying to battle a highly educated and experienced attorney. Generally doesn't fair too well for the little guy(whether he is "right" or "wrong").
As with any argument or debate, there can be "evidence" to support each side. The person more readily equipped to back their position is usually the one who "wins" the debate. Even if it isn't the majority opinion. Knowledge is power. I have enough common sense to not get into a battle of wits with someone who clearly has a larger arsenal. 

I also believe respect should be given to consider both sides of a situation. 

The BIG thing I don't quite understand is this...
Why is it so difficult for everyone to understand and respect that there will always be a wide spectrum of "caretakers" or pet owners? 

Others have mentioned the care of dogs for example. There is a wide variety of owners and care out there. One school of thought is "all a dog needs is 3 things...love, love, and love". Many do fine by giving their dog lots of love and attention and pays little attention to the "scientific mumbo jumbo". On the other end, some vets or nutritionists would have a completely different approach. They'd spend a great deal of time, effort, and money to make sure the dog has the best diet possible, all the proper tests, and all the preventative meds. Even then, there would be a lot of variance in vets opinions and care. 

The same "extremes" are easy to see in raising children. There are some that let their kids "be kids" and grow up like a lot of older generations did. Playing in the dirt, getting the bumps and bruises, and such. There's also the parents who are very protective, visit the doctor and pharmacy for each concern, maintains proper diet, and uses many anti-bacteria products. Arguments and results can be produced to support both sides and everything in between.

I'm not here to judge or fight for either end of the spectrum. Once again, I believe respect and consideration should be given to understand both "extremes".

As a hobby, there will be those that are the casual hobbyists and there will be those that are much more serious as breeders. I believe both can care very much for their "pets" and handle it with different approaches.

In Communications 101, you are taught to consider your audience. What is their experience and education level? What is the message you're trying to deliver to them? What is the best way to deliver this message? Something to consider. Sometimes I think this is forgotten. 

I'd like to see this hobby flourish with the passion that I've come to enjoy. I'd hate to see newcomers intimidated and scared out of the beautiful world of dart frogs.

I'm sure some of the details above can be picked apart and argued. Like I said, I'm not here too argue for one "side" or the other. I hope that the "big picture" of it is considered.

Naive optimism?... Why can't we all just get along?

Thanks, Chris


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

outofreach said:


> Again, we are in the beginner section.
> 
> I am obviously less knowledgeable than most on this board, I'm a whole 4 months in.
> 
> There are a few people that lash out at newbie questions, then the masses pile on. In my eyes that is counter productive but I could be wrong, its happened before. I mean when a new kid posts a mixed tank video do we want to educate or tar and feather? We are at 9 pages because some kid was proud of his tanks and frogs and posted it on YouTube.


I agree, some people do lash out too harshly. I used to be one of them. I've mostly moved past that because I've learned it doesn't help, but I don't believe Ed is one of those people. He's too rational with this stuff. And I've butted heads with him in the past so I'm not being biased or anything.

Since you're 4 months in you don't quite understand the way this board has played out completely. I've been on here for 5 years, and I have seen time and time again the same EXACT threads about mixing, hybrids, and what have you, play out. If you had responded to 40 different people over the years (more in cases of people who have been on here since 04, 05) about these same topics, getting the same cop out BS back in return. You would understand the frustration. And I am in no way condoning some peoples actions and attacks. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what's happened. When you are this proud about a hobby, and take it seriously, you get upset when people are screwing with it. And I really don't think people realize the severity of showing we could be causing problems with frog populations here in the US. Several organizations would be happy to shut us down. Including some politicians. To give you an idea of how little they care about our wants (or in this case evidence), in British Columbia they made terribilis illegal because some politician saw that they were really toxic on tv. And Canada is generally much more understanding of science than we are.

Again I'm not condoning anything, but you should keep this in mind. And to all the newbies that are afraid to post or whatever, not everyone will blast you for doing something wrong. We may blast you for ignoring everything we say and seemingly making problems on purpose as some have however.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kitcolebay said:


> The BIG thing I don't quite understand is this...
> Why is it so difficult for everyone to understand and respect that there will always be a wide spectrum of "caretakers" or pet owners
> 
> Others have mentioned the care of dogs for example. There is a wide variety of owners and care out there. One school of thought is "all a dog needs is 3 things...love, love, and love". Many do fine by giving their dog lots of love and attention and pays little attention to the "scientific mumbo jumbo". On the other end, some vets or nutritionists would have a completely different approach. They'd spend a great deal of time, effort, and money to make sure the dog has the best diet possible, all the proper tests, and all the preventative meds. Even then, there would be a lot of variance in vets opinions and care.


I think your shortchanging the discussion a little here.. Where we see the greatest level of issues is with people who take positions that are contradicted by the documented information (to seperate it from the dogma) and blatently refuse to acknowledge what they are doing is bad for the animal, the hobby, and/or the enviroment. As an example in the "love, love, love" category with dogs we routinely see cases of where this is a negative, for example Dog Fight Over Obie, the Dieting Dachshund - The Daily Beast, (and this is before we consider cases of obese animals confiscated overseas). There are points where the methods of the caretaker are clearly out of bounds and these should and do need to be addressed. 

The second most common area of conflict is when we see people who know the position of the community and go into controversial threads and make claims that are contradictory and not based on any new information. This is what got this thread rolling again.... If your going to deliberately start mashing buttons, then you don't have any excuses when it goes bad for you. 



kitcolebay said:


> I'd like to see this hobby flourish with the passion that I've come to enjoy. I'd hate to see newcomers intimidated and scared out of the beautiful world of dart frogs.


This gets thrown around a lot as an argument but it has no proof...and is simply an opinion statement. and oddly enough, we tend to see statements like that which occured earlier only when things are contested and only in those threads from people who claim they read that thread and are never coming back here... So a case based on conjecture could also be made that those were throw away accounts by someone who wants to support thier argument... There is no way to tell them apart. 

Again on an empirical basis, we also see that this forum is continuing to grow despite the claims that newer people are being "scared off" while other forums with more overt anti-mixing philsophies are more stagnent (see Jared's argument over having to wait to get posts answered above)... So we see the conjecture conflicting with the circumstancial evidence. 



kitcolebay said:


> I'm sure some of the details above can be picked apart and argued. Like I said, I'm not here too argue for one "side" or the other. I hope that the "big picture" of it is considered.


Not picked apart, expanded on is more like it. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Sorry, not into reading all that technical junk but I do like your links though. I don't think it could be a post labeled with your name without one.


 
And oddly enough, this is exactly why I believe you are trolling in these threads... Again, nice attempt at the backhanded insult... 
This isn't the first thread you've played this sort of game. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

So here we have a "newbie" oddly enough coming onto this forum to discuss hybridizing http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/89165-first-time-breeding-dart-frogs.html... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

kitcolebay said:


> I do not care to get into any arguments directly, or indirectly, with members on here. I have truly enjoyed "getting to know" a lot of the members on here. I have lots of respect for many on here(with varying opinions). I've really come to love the dart frog community in general.
> 
> A couple basic thoughts that hit me in some of these threads...
> 
> ...


That is a very very awesome point. Particularly about the wide degree of pet owners. Well said!


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> This gets thrown around a lot as an argument but it has no proof...and is simply an opinion statement.


Unfortunately Ed, no average joe on here could post that proof as we don't have access to the DB database and you know those who could won't. Even if they did, how would anyone know it was for real or just posted to show numbers? Im sure there is a way that can be searched how many people with say, less than a certain amount of posts, stopped posting. You could then read through those and probably pick out from their posts when they stopped. I don't think people can unregister, they just become inactive. You seem to have that kind of time, maybe you could check that for us. It would be very helpful.

Well, it's suposed to be 69 today... off to ride the motorcycle .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Unfortunately Ed, no average joe on here could post that proof as we don't have access to the DB database and you know those who could won't. Even if they did, how would anyone know it was for real or just posted to show numbers? Im sure there is a way that can be searched how many people with say, less than a certain amount of posts, stopped posting. You could then read through those and probably pick out from their posts when they stopped. I don't think people can unregister, they just become inactive. You seem to have that kind of time, maybe you could check that for us. It would be very helpful.
> 
> Well, it's suposed to be 69 today... off to ride the motorcycle .


Nice to see that your willing to mock the disabled. 

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> I think your shortchanging the discussion a little here.. Where we see the greatest level of issues is with people who take positions that are contradicted by the documented information (to seperate it from the dogma) and blatently refuse to acknowledge what they are doing is bad for the animal, the hobby, and/or the enviroment. As an example in the "love, love, love" category with dogs we routinely see cases of where this is a negative, for example Dog Fight Over Obie, the Dieting Dachshund - The Daily Beast, (and this is before we consider cases of obese animals confiscated overseas). There are points where the methods of the caretaker are clearly out of bounds and these should and do need to be addressed.
> 
> The second most common area of conflict is when we see people who know the position of the community and go into controversial threads and make claims that are contradictory and not based on any new information. This is what got this thread rolling again.... If your going to deliberately start mashing buttons, then you don't have any excuses when it goes bad for you.
> 
> ...


It appears the use of stonewalling and filibuster tactics are popular to derail or avoid questions.

If I close my eyes can you see me?

A happy thread about mixing fixes the others?



Again we are in the beginner section.


I attached some definitions or words I recently found relative.


Nominal use of "to stonewall", a verb with the figurative meaning "to refuse to cooperate, especially in supplying information, by talking a lot" (as used in "stonewalling", notably in the contexts of behavioral communication, law enforcement and politics).

Or

intransitive verb
1
chiefly British : to engage in obstructive parliamentary debate or delaying tactics
2
: to be uncooperative, obstructive, or evasive
transitive verb
: to refuse to comply or cooperate with


Or

Overview of noun stonewalling

The noun stonewalling has 1 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)
1. stonewalling
(stalling or delaying especially by refusing to answer questions or cooperate)

Overview of verb stonewall

The verb stonewall has 2 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)


1. stonewall
(obstruct or hinder any discussion; "Nixon stonewalled the Watergate investigation"; "When she doesn't like to face a problem, she simply stonewalls")
2. stonewall
(engage in delaying tactics or refuse to cooperate; "The President stonewalled when he realized the plot was being uncovered by a journalist")


Maybe just repeat myself ?

Overview of noun stonewalling

The noun stonewalling has 1 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)
1. stonewalling
(stalling or delaying especially by refusing to answer questions or cooperate)

Overview of verb stonewall

The verb stonewall has 2 senses? (no senses from tagged texts)


1. stonewall
(obstruct or hinder any discussion; "Nixon stonewalled the Watergate investigation"; "When she doesn't like to face a problem, she simply stonewalls")
2. stonewall
(engage in delaying tactics or refuse to cooperate; "The President stonewalled when he realized the plot was being uncovered by a journalist")

Or filibuster ?

What is a Filibuster?
From Matthew Berger, former About.com Guide
There are 100 members of the U.S. Senate, and most votes are won by a simple majority. But in the Senate, 60 is the most important number.
It takes 60 votes in the Senate to block a filibuster, or an unlimited debate. Senate rules allow any member or group of senators to speak as long as necessary on an issue. The only way to end the debate is to evoke "cloture," or win a vote of 60 members. Without the 60 votes needed, the filibuster can go on forever.

Historical Filibusters

Senators have effectively used filibusters - or more often, the threat of a filibuster - to change legislation or block a bill from being voted on the Senate floor.

Sen. Strom Thurmond gave the longest filibuster in 1957, when he spoke for more than 24 hours against the Civil Rights Act. Sen. Huey Long would recite Shakespeare and read recipes to pass the time while filibustering in the 1930s.

But the most famous filibuster was conducted by Jimmy Stewart in the classic film Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.

Why Filibuster?

Senators have used filibusters to push for changes in legislation, or to prevent a bill from passing with less than 60 votes. It is often a way for the minority party to yield power and block legislation, even though the majority party chooses what bills will get a vote.

Often, senators make their intent to filibuster known to other senators to prevent a bill from being scheduled for a vote. That's why you rarely see long filibusters on the Senate floors. Bills that will not be approved are rarely scheduled for a vote.

In the Bush administration, Democratic senators effectively filibustered against several judicial nominations. In 2005, a group of seven Democrats and seven Republicans - dubbed the "Gang of 14" - got together to reduce filibusters for judicial nominees. The Democrats agreed not to filibuster against several nominees, while Republicans ended efforts to rule filibusters unconstitutional.

Against the Filibuster

In recent months, some pundits have called for an end to filibusters, or to lower the threshold to 55 votes. They suggest the rule has been used to often in recent years to block important legislation. Rep. Alan Grayson (D-Fla.) has an online petition that says: "Until 1970, no session of Congress had more than ten votes on cloture to end a filibuster. Until 2007, the record was 58. But since Democrats regained control of the Senate, filibusters have skyrocketed. The last session had a new record of 112."


Some thoughts


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

outofreach said:


> It appears the use of stonewalling and filibuster tactics are popular to derail or avoid questions.
> 
> If I close my eyes can you see me?
> 
> ...


Do you remember this?


Pumilo said:


> "The new folks" may find that when the are incredibly rude and insulting, people deliberately avoid giving you any help.


Now I have to admit, I've burned a few bridges myself, but typically, most people wait until after they've crossed.
Even if I wanted to help you, it is impossible. You refuse to accept anybodies word for it. You refuse to accept anybodies interpretation of the plethora of scientific information and proof. So the only way you could possibly accept it, is from a scientific paper. You have made it abundantly clear that any scientific evidence of anything, has no business ever being posted on DB.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Do you remember this?
> 
> Now I have to admit, I've burned a few bridges myself, but typically, most people wait until after they've crossed.
> Even if I wanted to help you, it is impossible. You refuse to accept anybodies word for it. You refuse to accept anybodies interpretation of the plethora of scientific information and proof. So the only way you could possibly accept it, is from a scientific paper. You have made it abundantly clear that any scientific evidence of anything, has no business ever being posted on DB.



Not the case at all. I came here searching for information not to burn bridges. No bias or malice upon arrival. Im not going to spend hours showing you examples of why my current attitude is what it is. Im sorry, i have no scientific research to back up my personal conclusion


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> maybe you could check that for us. It would be very helpful.


I'm inclined to concur. Excluding significant documentation a judicious denouement is preposterous even irrational.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Nice to see that your willing to mock the disabled.
> 
> Ed


How am I mocking you? Do I know you? Are you disabled? If so then I am sorry for your disability, I don't poke fun at a person with a handicap. I recently have become handicap as well when I nearly cut my fingers off last december. I have always taken for granted how simple something like tieing your shoes could be. 

My statement was simply meant to say that it takes quite a bit of time to come up with the random range of links you tend to post on such a variety of topics and you most likely don't have them all in your favorites folder. Certainly wasn't to mock a disability I knew nothing about.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Not the case at all. I came here searching for information not to burn bridges. No bias or malice upon arrival. Im not going to spend hours showing you examples of why my current attitude is what it is. Im sorry, i have no scientific research to back up my personal conclusion


You have your observation, that's scientific or at least was in my chemistry classes in college.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Not the case at all. I came here searching for information not to burn bridges. No bias or malice upon arrival. Im not going to spend hours showing you examples of why my current attitude is what it is. Im sorry, i have no scientific research to back up my personal conclusion


Curious then, that you have been added to the "ignore" list of the two people that you are repeatedly demanding an answer from. It's a beautiful feature that completely removes everything you say, from every post I see. Goodbye forever.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Curious then, that you have been added to the "ignore" list of the two people that you are repeatedly demanding an answer from. It's a beautiful feature that completely removes everything you say, from every post I see. Goodbye forever.



Finally. All is well that ends well.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Finally. All is well that ends well.


Did you ever get your question answered?


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

i have started and been involved in fights before that i truly regret and have no idea why i said it. I am truly sorry to those i offend or fought with. I shouldn't argue on matters i have lil experience with.

im not here to fight but throw my 2 cents in.

I believe in the scientific method:

Ask a Question
Do Background Research
Construct a Hypothesis
Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
Communicate Your Results

I know they are living things but...how do you know what works with what without doing it?

You would have no idea that you have to have a lid on your cage unless someone had their frog escape from the cage

OR

That larger frogs eat smaller frogs eat little ones when hungry.

Not the best choices but you catch my drift...I do not agree with what they are doing but its not like you can stop them....And when they say their frogs die then that's their fault, then we know what went wrong...

I'm not defending them but just putting some thoughts in your minds.

i am entitled to my own opinion!!!

*TO THE BEGINNERS READING THIS!
*
You should have a huge amount of experience and understanding of each critter you even think of mixing before ever considering it. Even if you think your a genius...

I learned the hard way a few years ago when i first started.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> How am I mocking you? Do I know you? Are you disabled? If so then I am sorry for your disability, I don't poke fun at a person with a handicap. I recently have become handicap as well when I nearly cut my fingers off last december. I have always taken for granted how simple something like tieing your shoes could be.
> 
> My statement was simply meant to say that it takes quite a bit of time to come up with the random range of links you tend to post on such a variety of topics and you most likely don't have them all in your favorites folder. Certainly wasn't to mock a disability I knew nothing about.


Jared, 

Do you remember the conversation that started here? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...rog-smuggling-reality-check-6.html#post779957 and Scott's reply? It was pretty clear I wasn't working for some major reason (and that I couldn't just get another job)..... Yes, I am disabled and homebound... so to imply that since I was stuck at home I could make myself useful and attempt to prove your argument was fairly insulting to say the least..... 

As for having time to find all that stuff, it isn't that time consuming when you've worked with those topics for close to 19 years as a professional and another 4-5 non-professionally.... In addition, I have a fairly extensive reference library in my house (the value of replacement value on the texts alone is probably close to 5 K at this point). 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> You have your observation, that's scientific or at least was in my chemistry classes in college.


Actually simple observation isn't scientific... It has to be documented, and reproducible (including by other people)... Otherwise it is at best anecdotal and at worst a hoax or other bad act.. for example the whole thing about "cold fusion"...... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

JaredJ said:


> Did you ever get your question answered?


You mean this one........ What novel pathogens have been created by the dart frog hobby and what damage have they created?

No. Apparently a scientifically documented answer is non existent and therefore will not be answered. Its easier for them to put me on their ignore list, thus avoiding the question.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Actually simple observation isn't scientific... It has to be documented, and reproducible (including by other people)... Otherwise it is at best anecdotal and at worst a hoax or other bad act.. for example the whole thing about "cold fusion"......
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Could you please provide a link to substantiate your position?


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

outofreach said:


> Could you please provide a link to substantiate your position?


This, links therein, and many many others


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Actually simple observation isn't scientific... It has to be documented, and reproducible (including by other people)... Otherwise it is at best anecdotal and at worst a hoax or other bad act.. for example the whole thing about "cold fusion"......
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed



Absolutely scientific, observation is the key ingredient in the scientific method. You dispute his conclusion simply because is wasn't backed by pages of explanation. It would also depend on your definition of scientific and how it relates to a given circumstance.

The simple word observation or simple observation can literally have a plethora of acceptable definitions. It depends what your definition of "is" is.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

easternversant said:


> This, links therein, and many many others


Nope. That doesn't make an observation not scientific or scientific in nature. 

Amazing can't even say scientific without an elaborate explanation.

I have things to do tonight, please continue without me.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Have been reading this thread and have some input. 
Lately I do not post much but fellow frogger friends and I do keep in touch via e-mail and phone calls etc. so I am available to help when I can with new hobbiests.
First of all over the 6 years in the hobby I have gradually acquired a good sized collection and breed and sell froglets to adult frogs.
Here is my .02, I QT and test all of my frogs, including testing for rana and chytrid, yes I bleach all of my refuse including water when I drain my viv's. 
I do not want to potentially harm the environment and want the best for my frogs plus when I sell the offspring to others want them to have the best chance at healthy frogs. Is there such a thing as "clean" frogs? Probably not while we do what we can there is still quite a bit that is unknown and or not being studied with darts. Do I sell to or buy from anyone, nope. 
The individuals that mix frogs, yes the frogs are theirs they can do what they want with their frogs, I will "blacklist" and recommend others not to buy frogs from known mixers.
The possible new litagation on proof of chytrid free frogs when shipping across state line effects all of us, while I test for it if the law is passed can potentially delay shipments and with the delay can potentially harm frogs in transit. This is IMO a problem caused by individuals/big breeders/importers not testing and shipping chytrid positive frogs. 
I want the best for my pets as well, they go for check ups and vaccinations annually. Not sure why anyone would not want to do the best for their pets or darts, guess you can pay the "big bill" when it happens instead of using prevention.
Good Luck!


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Bcs TX said:


> Have been reading this thread and have some input.
> Lately I do not post much but fellow frogger friends and I do keep in touch via e-mail and phone calls etc. so I am available to help when I can with new hobbiests.
> First of all over the 6 years in the hobby I have gradually acquired a good sized collection and breed and sell froglets to adult frogs.
> Here is my .02, I QT and test all of my frogs, including testing for rana and chytrid, yes I bleach all of my refuse including water when I drain my viv's.
> ...


I think that's great, really.

I also think breeders and vendors should be held to a higher standard then the newbie.

I also take great care of my animals, the best care I know how. If they need anything they get it. Including taking my bulldog to an allergy specialist with a standing appointment every 2 months. My tortoises have been to the vet and are fed with supplements, they are now approaching 200 pounds. They have been wandering the backyard since they moved out of their 10 gallon tank.

A lack of knowledge doesn't mean a lack of concern for the animals. A popular rebuttal is well if you cared for your animals you would educate yourself...... Its not nearly that simple.

My point is more about responses by those more experienced than me, which is most. Responses to the original post here and opinion played off as fact.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

outofreach said:


> I think that's great, really.
> 
> I also think breeders and vendors should be held to a higher standard then the newbie.
> 
> I also take great care of my animals, the best care I know how.


But there are obviously others in this thread that do not do that and have publicly declared that they have no intention of doing so either.



> A lack of knowledge doesn't mean a lack of concern for the animals. A popular rebuttal is well if you cared for your animals you would educate yourself...... Its not nearly that simple.


It is, actually. When accurate information is presented with references it should be EXTREMELY simple for even an amateur hobbyist to educate themselves. When they don't, it's on them regardless of whether they just started keeping or have been doing so for a much longer amount of time.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

outofreach said:


> I think that's great, really.
> 
> I also think breeders and vendors should be held to a higher standard then the newbie.
> 
> ...


Ok, if breeders and vendors should be held to a higher standard, then by that reasoning, you shouldn't be allowed to have the frogs you have as a newbie. 
You've already admitted you didn't know what you're doing when you jumped in with both feet and went from 0 to 43 frogs in 4 months. So now because you don't know what you're doing the frogs should suffer because you don't want to put forth the effort to learn about proper husbandry? Because the information is easily accessible on this forum? Because you claim ignorance? You are a hypocrite!!!
Yes...it is your fault that you didn't research the animals needs before you went from 0 to 43 in 4 months. Are you gonna try and pawn this off and say it's not your fault? It is simple!!!! If you truly *ARE* concerned for the welfare of your animals you *WILL* educate yourself with the proper husbandry techniques. End of story. You are the type of person that would keep a tiger in and apartment in NYC. Why? You don't care. These frogs are status symbols to you and nothing more. You have more money than you have sense. You are disgusting to me. Don't try and pull this innocent "I didn't know any better" crap. Don't try and pull it on DD either, people are watching you on both forums. You really make me sick.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I just removed a BUNCH of off topic (and somewhat bizarre ... ) posts.

Could we please keep it on topic?

Next post off topic gets dinged.

s


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Curious then, that you have been added to the "ignore" list of the two people that you are repeatedly demanding an answer from. It's a beautiful feature that completely removes everything you say, from every post I see. Goodbye forever.


I have to agree with Doug on this. It is truly a nice feature.

Needless to say, I had to go back and watch the video to even spot the leuc hiding under that leaf. You hardly notice it's nose poking out if you're not looking for it.


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