# accidental Hybrid/inter-breeding update



## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

The first to be OOW. Just wanted to give an update on how they are doing. 










The belly seem to have this blue shimmer to it. The neck up is orange. 


















Cheers,
Ethin


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## melas (Oct 24, 2007)

Not interested in debate of any kind . . . curious what the parents were?


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

is this the basti/el dorado??


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

calvinyhob said:


> is this the basti/el dorado??


It is the white bast/red orange eldo.



melas said:


> Not interested in debate of any kind . . . curious what the parents were?


No debate here. The parents are on a post I titled "two months later"



Cheers,
Ethin


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

How are the others doing?


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

calvinyhob said:


> How are the others doing?


The others five are doing great. It's the lack of food that is slowing down their developement. We'll see in a month how well they grow. 

Cheers,
Ethin


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

You said the parents raised these correct? For some reason I thought I recalled you raising them, but again i'm not sure. lol 

MY bad...


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

jfehr232 said:


> You said the parents raised these correct? For some reason I thought I recalled you raising them, but again i'm not sure. lol
> 
> MY bad...


I raised them on eggs laid by my two groups of breeding pumilios. I later switched them with existing tads in the tanks that had already developed their front legs. The female never knew what hit her and just keep on feeding them. It's a pain in the butt and raising 9 tads this way is tedious. I think raising up to 3 tads is best unless you have plenty of breeding tanks to feed all of them. I hope this clear things up a little.

Cheers,
Ethin


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

ethin said:


> I raised them on eggs laid by my two groups of breeding pumilios. I later switched them with existing tads in the tanks that had already developed their front legs. The female never knew what hit her and just keep on feeding them. It's a pain in the butt and raising 9 tads this way is tedious. I think raising up to 3 tads is best unless you have plenty of breeding tanks to feed all of them. I hope this clear things up a little.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ethin


So your title is not correct? 

"accidental Hybrid/inter-breeding update "

Which means that this was no accident and you knowingly created hybrids. GOOD FOR YOU ):


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

evolvstll said:


> So your title is not correct?
> 
> "accidental Hybrid/inter-breeding update "
> 
> Which means that this was no accident and you knowingly created hybrids. GOOD FOR YOU ):


What are you talking about!!!! NO ACCIDENT!!!! This post is an update of another post I put up earlier "two months later". I don't understand why people like you like to jump the gun when you have no clue of what is going on. If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything. 

Cheers,
Ethin


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

So let me summarize........you put at least two adult frogs of different morphs together? You found eggs? You then let, even helped those eggs develop into hybrid froglets?

To me it looks like you know the boards stance on hybrids, yet by your 'previous' and current posts you are flaunting your hybrids in our faces!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me know what I dont understand and what I got wrong.


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

Tony said:


> I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and be nice in your other thread, but you are obviously just a mouthy punk who doesn't give a crap about the hobby. You should look into corn snakes or ball pythons, they are more your speed.


I actually thought we all needed to cool down a little and I let it go and that was why I stoped posting on "two months later". I have nothing against you but I see that you're no better than me by calling me a "mouthy punk". Now you're following my thread so you can harass me, Who's the bigger guy here. 

Cheers,
Ethin


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

I knew the truth would be revealed sooner or later.
I think a proper recap on this, is: "I placed 2 different morphs of pumilio together. They produced fertile eggs. Rather than cull them, knowing they are hybrids/cross-morph, I chose to continue with the feeding of these tads so I could see the outcome".


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

evolvstll said:


> So let me summarize........you put at least two adult frogs of different morphs together? You found eggs? You then let, even helped those eggs develop into hybrid froglets?
> 
> To me it looks like you know the boards stance on hybrids, yet by your 'previous' and current posts you are flaunting your hybrids in our faces!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Let me know what I dont understand and what I got wrong.


anything to my respons/question?


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

evolvstll said:


> So let me summarize........you put at least two adult frogs of different morphs together? You found eggs? You then let, even helped those eggs develop into hybrid froglets?
> 
> To me it looks like you know the boards stance on hybrids, yet by your 'previous' and current posts you are flaunting your hybrids in our faces!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Let me know what I dont understand and what I got wrong.


I did put acouple of frogs together for the sake of building their permanent tanks. I had no idea which one of the three frogs laid the eggs. I kept it for the sake of "what if it was one of the basti". Even when I posted pictures up earlier, members were thinking that it was just an orange basti. I wanted to make sure and now I'm being bombarded. I am no means flaunting them. I was updating what I had promised other members that I would do. Please don't PM me and telling me I'm running with my tail between my legs, I just got into work and there are beter things to do right now then argue. 

Cheers,
Ethin


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## mjahnke (Sep 8, 2008)

My attempt to lighten the mood...


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

mjahnke said:


> My attempt to lighten the mood...


HAHA! I don't think azureus like eggs though...


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

mjahnke said:


> My attempt to lighten the mood...


I appreciate you trying to lighten things up but I can't see the picture.

Cheers,
Ethin


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Put it in the freezer and be done with it. Save yourself some grief and do the right thing for the hobby and the frogs in captivity.


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## mjahnke (Sep 8, 2008)

Hmm it was working... 










photo can be viewed by clicking this link... and its in my gallery.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gallery/data/500/frogjoke.JPG


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

ethin said:


> I did put acouple of frogs together for the sake of building their permanent tanks. I had no idea which one of the three frogs laid the eggs. I kept it for the sake of "what if it was one of the basti". Even when I posted pictures up earlier, members were thinking that it was just an orange basti. I wanted to make sure and now I'm being bombarded. I am no means flaunting them. I was updating what I had promised other members that I would do. Please don't PM me and telling me I'm running with my tail between my legs, I just got into work and there are beter things to do right now then argue.
> 
> Cheers,
> Ethin



Knowing the stance of the board on hybrids.......explain how that wasnt irresponsible and even selfish on your part to let those eggs develop into froglets when there was even a chance that they would be hybrids?
Now you have froglets that can live 12+ years. That is the problem. I can not tell you if I will have frogs in 12 years much less 6. Chances are most of us will not be around. The direction and future of dart frogs is being set by us. If I was irresponsible and created hybrids like that, what would I do with them when I ran out of tank space, grew tired, life situation change on me. How would I ensure that they would not taint other peoples collections and such...................
This is the same argument floating on the board since its inception, yet we still have incidents like this along with individuals always trying to justify their 'creation'.

So explain how your hybrid creations wasnt you being irresponsible and selfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

npaull said:


> Put it in the freezer and be done with it. Save yourself some grief and do the right thing for the hobby and the frogs in captivity.


This is what should have been done with the eggs/tadpoles. But rather than do the responsible thing, he chose to continue the development. 
Let this be an example to those still wondering about mixed species/morphs in the same viv.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

evolvstll said:


> Knowing the stance of the board on hybrids.......explain how that wasnt irresponsible and even selfish on your part to let those eggs develop into froglets when there was even a chance that they would be hybrids?
> Now you have froglets that can live 12+ years. That is the problem. I can not tell you if I will have frogs in 12 years much less 6. Chances are most of us will not be around. The direction and future of dart frogs is being set by us. If I was irresponsible and created hybrids like that, what would I do with them when I ran out of tank space, grew tired, life situation change on me. How would I ensure that they would not taint other peoples collections and such...................
> This is the same argument floating on the board since its inception, yet we still have incidents like this along with individuals always trying to justify their 'creation'.
> 
> So explain how your hybrid creations wasnt you being irresponsible and selfish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Well said!


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

I'd opt for a drop of Orajel on its head. I read it's the most humane route to go about culling frogs and such. 



npaull said:


> Put it in the freezer and be done with it. Save yourself some grief and do the right thing for the hobby and the frogs in captivity.


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## mjahnke (Sep 8, 2008)

I vote to parade it around the United States so that we may stone this hideous abomination of God. 

In an effort to help the hobby, stones will be sold for five dollars and all money will be donated to Treewalkers.


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Are you talking about the frog or the OP? Because I'd feel bad for the frog.....

Seriously though, it's not the frogs' fault. It's entirely on the keeper. At first I thought it was an accident but now I'm thinking otherwise...


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Cute frogs Ethin


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## mjahnke (Sep 8, 2008)

Eh I'd take the OP out for a couple drinks, have a civil discussion about not raising hybrids to maturity. 


Hybrids are like fat chicks, DON'T BRAG ABOUT IT TO ANYONE.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Transparency on the subject is good, if you're keeping it then keep posting updated pics of it , if you transfer it to someone in the future, just post who it is


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## Bananaslug (Feb 18, 2010)

Instead of continuing to argue about it, why don't one of y'all responsble froggers offer to buy them? Then dispose of them.


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Because then we would be buying/selling hybrids. Which is just as bad as creating them IMO.


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## ASM_rider (Aug 31, 2009)

Wow drama on dendro is a bit ridiculous sometimes. They looks great who cares if he wants to raise them. He isnt trying to go into your house adding these into your pumilio tanks. Relax take a deep breath and count to 10.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I think we are ignoring the real villains in this scenario...the frogs themselves. Surely, they knew their love was forbidden. Why are we laying none of this responsibility at their toepads?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

ASM_rider said:


> He isnt trying to go into your house adding these into your pumilio tanks.


Just hypothetically:

He gets tired of dart frogs and/or needs extra money.

He sells/gives it to a pet shop.

The pet shop sells it as a basti.

That's why I'm saying just keep posting pics of it as it grows, don't breed it and just say something if it gets transferred. It would probably be a fine addition to a huge well planted tank of auratus or something if all frogs fecaled clean.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

I think it's pretty damn selfish for anyone to try and convince Ethin to euthanize a frog for the sake of your opinion, the frog is already alive, at least he's doing the right thing by documenting and photographing it. I think everyone needs to settle down and realize that these frogs are a hobby, and what a person does with them is their choice! It is some peoples opinion/stance (same thing IMO) to not cross, hybridize, etc., and for others they may feel the need to, the main point is it's an opinion, not a law, don't make someone feel like they've done something wrong when in fact they haven't, I had my little run with the cross breed thing, and did something terrible happen? No! Everyone knows what they look like, and they aren't out scattered through the hobby are they, are they causing a disaster in the hobby, NO!
Eventually there is going to be a revolution if people just keep bashing and bashing, a group will get together and cross breed the sh$& out of everything just spite of the hobby. I'm not saying I wish for that to happen, but I feel like there has to be a better way to do what we've been doing when these threads pop up...sorry this might not make sense kinda like a rant I guess, but I just can't stand when people make their opinions sound like the law!
Have a good day everyone it's Thursday! Let's all get drunk!


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I think it's pretty damn selfish for anyone to try and convince Ethin to euthanize a frog for the sake of your opinion, the frog is already alive, at least he's doing the right thing by documenting and photographing it. I think everyone needs to settle down and realize that these frogs are a hobby, and what a person does with them is their choice! It is some peoples opinion/stance (same thing IMO) to not cross, hybridize, etc., and for others they may feel the need to, the main point is it's an opinion, not a law, don't make someone feel like they've done something wrong when in fact they haven't, I had my little run with the cross breed thing, and did something terrible happen? No! Everyone knows what they look like, and they aren't out scattered through the hobby are they, are they causing a disaster in the hobby, NO!
> Eventually there is going to be a revolution if people just keep bashing and bashing, a group will get together and cross breed the sh$& out of everything just spite of the hobby. I'm not saying I wish for that to happen, but I feel like there has to be a better way to do what we've been doing when these threads pop up...sorry this might not make sense kinda like a rant I guess, but I just can't stand when people make their opinions sound like the law!
> Have a good day everyone it's Thursday! *Let's all get drunk!*


I agree completely with you. Everyone needs to take a chill pill and calm the eff down.

-Matt


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> I think it's pretty damn selfish for anyone to try and convince Ethin to euthanize a frog for the sake of your opinion, the frog is already alive, at least he's doing the right thing by documenting and photographing it. I think everyone needs to settle down and realize that these frogs are a hobby, and what a person does with them is their choice! It is some peoples opinion/stance (same thing IMO) to not cross, hybridize, etc., and for others they may feel the need to, the main point is it's an opinion, not a law, don't make someone feel like they've done something wrong when in fact they haven't, I had my little run with the cross breed thing, and did something terrible happen? No! Everyone knows what they look like, and they aren't out scattered through the hobby are they, are they causing a disaster in the hobby, NO!
> Eventually there is going to be a revolution if people just keep bashing and bashing, a group will get together and cross breed the sh$& out of everything just spite of the hobby. I'm not saying I wish for that to happen, but I feel like there has to be a better way to do what we've been doing when these threads pop up...sorry this might not make sense kinda like a rant I guess, but I just can't stand when people make their opinions sound like the law!
> Have a good day everyone it's Thursday! Let's all get drunk!




Not surprised here Troy.........remember this and subsequent posts?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/27141-i-know-frowned-upon-but.html

Back then we went through this with you. I was the first person to post and recommend what the responsible frogger would do in that situation. We already know you have created and passed hybrids on to others hands. I can drag the posts out where you also tried to claim later that it was all an accident. It looks like you got excited Troy because there is another irresponsible frogger like yourself................


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## mjahnke (Sep 8, 2008)

+1 for Drunkeness

Nothing beats trying to pronounce frog names after a couple rounds.


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

McBobs said:


> I agree completely with you. Everyone needs to take a chill pill and calm the eff down.
> 
> -Matt


This is getting way out of control! I appreciate you for trying to calm everyone down. By the way, The imitators I bought from you last year are breeding. I ended up with a pair, Thanks! 

Cheers,
Ethin


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Troy here is the thread where the danger of having hybrids comes out in the open. You lied about the lineage etc.........claimed they came from a pet store...............and end the end you lied. They were produced by your tank from the previous thread when you were a month on the board.............


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/33068-pics-my-froglets-pic-heavy.html


caught in your lie that everyone seems to have forgotten.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

evolvstll said:


> Not surprised here Troy.........remember this and subsequent posts?
> 
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/27141-i-know-frowned-upon-but.html
> ...


Completely uncalled for post. You've just pulled up a thread from 3 years ago when Troy had just joined the forum purely for chance to be able to call him an irresponsible frogger. There was no need for that at all. He clearly stated in this thread already that he does not agree with crossbreeding frogs anymore and yet you still go so far as to call him irresponsible. 

We know what your opinion is. You've stated it clearly many times. The only reason you've kept posting in this thread is to put other people down because their views do not coincide with yours. 

If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread and all you can do is put people down. It's time for you to move on to a different thread.

-Matt


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Totally called for and totally constructive. It all goes back to the dangers of hybrids in the hobby. 
Ever since Troy has been behind the production of hybrids. If needed the search feature can pull out many more of these................

Just three years ago????????? He was recommended back then to cull the eggs. He did not, raised them, lied about them, and has released them into the hobby..............

Constructive/deconstructive? .....................Troy is the poster child for the dangers of hybrids.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

ethin said:


> This is getting way out of control! I appreciate you for trying to calm everyone down. By the way, The imitators I bought from you last year are breeding. I ended up with a pair, Thanks!
> 
> Cheers,
> Ethin


Thats great! I couldnt remember if it was you or not that I had sold the froglets to. Glad to hear that they're producing for you! If they havent started going crazy yet, be prepared because they are very prolific frogs!

-Matt


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok, folks, lets step back a bit. 

I've been to Ethin's place and seen his frogs. He is a nice guy who enjoys the hobby. 

Now, while I don't necessarily agree with producing hybrids, except in controlled research environs, I think ya'll are being a wee bit harsh on him. As some folks have noted, they are his frogs. And yes, while the general consensus on DB is that mixing/creation of hybrids is wrong, I'm sure many, many folks could care less. This is an entirely separate issue. 

However, applying the "shock and awe" tactic to every mixing/hybrid thread is, IMO, highly counterproductive...if you are trying to discourage mixing/hybrids. While we should be encouraging folks to avoid such things we should also be providing a harassment free zone for folks in these situations (self-inflicted or not) to participate in public discourse. Such discourse (and transparency) is beneficial to the long term survival of the hobby, IMO. As Chris K. noted, what's done is done, better for them to be managed properly and openly identified as possible hybrids, than disappear and end up god knows where because Ethin (and others in similar situations) decide enough is enough and leave DB. We all know hybrids are out there, esp. among the more commonly available frogs, and if we discourage open discourse and communication (as well as proper tracking/management) then its really to our own (and the hobby's) peril. 

Stepping down from soapbox...


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> Such discourse (and transparency) is beneficial to the long term survival of the hobby, IMO.


What transparency is there when the story behind them is an obvious lie? It seems like "accident" is the new safe word, as soon as it is said then no discussion or expression of displeasure is allowed. "Oops, I accidentally housed two morphs together, then accidentally pulled the eggs and accidentally hand raised the tads, but nobody can say anything because I didn't mean to."


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Tony said:


> What transparency is there when the story behind them is an obvious lie? It seems like "accident" is the new safe word, as soon as it is said then no discussion or expression of displeasure is allowed. "Oops, I accidentally housed two morphs together, then accidentally pulled the egss and accidentally hand raised to tads, but nobody can say anything because I didn't mean to."


Transparency, meaning open communication about the situation, the status of the frogs, and potential management if they are not euthanized.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

For those of you advocaing killing these frogs you should be ashamed of yourself. It is a very sad day when the death of an animal seems correct in the eyes of a hobbiest. 

Ethin, not everyone has the same opinion on hybrids or mixed morphs. If you do decide to sell or rehome them I will give them a great home along with my pure bred and mixed/hybrid frogs.


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## brooklyndartfrogs (Nov 19, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> Ok, folks, lets step back a bit.
> 
> I've been to Ethin's place and seen his frogs. He is a nice guy who enjoys the hobby.
> 
> ...


Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Let's move away from the word "accident" since that seems to be what is being focused on. Let's simply call it a mistake instead. Either way they are cool looking and alive and deserve to remain that way. This continued hammering of anyone that disagrees with the anti hybrid opinion is only causing these frogs to be sold as something they are not. If you think hybrids are not being sold you are sadly mistaken.


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## ethin (Mar 26, 2009)

Tony said:


> What transparency is there when the story behind them is an obvious lie? It seems like "accident" is the new safe word, as soon as it is said then no discussion or expression of displeasure is allowed. "Oops, I accidentally housed two morphs together, then accidentally pulled the eggs and accidentally hand raised the tads, but nobody can say anything because I didn't mean to."


The statement that you're making is completly hearsay. You can dissagree or believe me but don't point fingers and tell me that i'm lying. I've raised several pumilios tads without the supervison of the mother due to neglect/to many eggs to be cared for by the mother. Oviously people will say something and I'm not going to stop them from doing so. I enjoy those members that had things to say that were important to this matter but I don't like people harassing or calling me a lier when it's an opinion and not a fact. you need to get off your high horse and relax a bit. I feel bad for those new members that are reading this for the first time because its sad to know that I joined this board for the fact of meeting with members that have the same passion. Knowing how people can be so in your face can definitly make people think twice about being on the board or post anything up for the sake of not getting stone at. 

Cheers,
Ethin


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

ASM_rider said:


> Wow drama on dendro is a bit ridiculous sometimes. They looks great who cares if he wants to raise them. He isnt trying to go into your house adding these into your pumilio tanks. Relax take a deep breath and count to 10.


Ummmm.....most forums get like this in some kind of way... Everyone has their opinion and can choose or not to choose to say it.


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