# adding live tropical butterflies to vivarium



## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

I been thinking about this for quite some time. Maybe longwing, deadleaf, or cleawing.Butterflies could be natural pollenators for the plants, feeding would be easy since I leave fruit for ff and springtails. and by adding them they give my vivarium more of a natural rainforest look.Breeding would done in a different container with host plant, and would be replace as needed. So, what do you think.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I know nothing about butterflies....But I do know their flight pattern is impossible to predict. How do you plan on keeping them inside the viv during misting/feeding times? I would think the bigger the enclosure, the easier it would be to get away with them. Cool idea though.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I like the idea if the viv was big enough. Would you be ordering them in chrysalis form?


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

interesting idea. i have my new 180 up and possibly could house a couple with my mints. but i wonder if my mints would want to chomp on them.

AG


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

GRIMM said:


> I know nothing about butterflies....But I do know their flight pattern is impossible to predict. How do you plan on keeping them inside the viv during misting/feeding times? I would think the bigger the enclosure, the easier it would be to get away with them. Cool idea though.


by opening my vivarium at min.,the use of a rainmaker.,using automatic live feeder,and stocking my vivarium with a less active sp. like deadleaf wich spends a great deal on the ground.and maybe moths for night activity.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

frogparty said:


> I like the idea if the viv was big enough. Would you be ordering them in chrysalis form?


l'm lucky enough to reside in florida, where I can do my own collecting.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

angry gary said:


> interesting idea. i have my new 180 up and possibly could house a couple with my mints. but i wonder if my mints would want to chomp on them.
> 
> AG


The ones I mention are to big for your mints to consider for food, except for the clearwings.Or you want might consider moths.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

There're thousands of different sp. of tropical moths, and butterflies. With that # l believe its all choosing the right sp. to fill that nitch in our virrarium.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

I'd imagine they need a good amount of airflow though. Maybe it could work in a large tank, I'm thinking 180g+ as a minimum but more being ideal. I know nothing about butterflies though and this is just an assumption of mine after observing a few tropical species I saw in Costa Rica. It would be awesome to have some Blue Morphos flying around in a viv!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Awesome idea. If you implement these please let us know.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

One thought, arent their wings super delicate, and wouldnt being exposed to the misting system potentially damage them?


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

frogparty said:


> One thought, arent their wings super delicate, and wouldnt being exposed to the misting system potentially damage them?


being tropical I'm assuming the butterflies are very use to strong downpours.The plant leaves in my vivarium will also provide some shelter too.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

The butterflies I have choosen, have weak points as well as strong points.


strong points;

longwings long lived (over 9 months+), colorful
deadleafs not a very active flier
cleawings small
moths active at night


weak points;

longwings active flier
deadleafs drab in color
cleawings small, kinda hard to spot
moths drab in color, active at night


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Really interesting idea.....Tagging along.....


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Mitch said:


> I'd imagine they need a good amount of airflow though. Maybe it could work in a large tank, I'm thinking 180g+ as a minimum but more being ideal. I know nothing about butterflies though and this is just an assumption of mine after observing a few tropical species I saw in Costa Rica. It would be awesome to have some Blue Morphos flying around in a viv!


l believe morpho would be to active for vivarium.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

charlesbrooks said:


> l believe morpho would be to active for vivarium.


Yea I was thinking that. Also won't all butterflies fly into the glass at some point and possibly injure themselves/get stuck?


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)




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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Mitch said:


> Yea I was thinking that. Also won't all butterflies fly into the glass at some point and possibly injure themselves/get stuck?


you increase your chances of that happening by choosen a more active flying sp.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> being tropical I'm assuming the butterflies are very use to strong downpours.The plant leaves in my vivarium will also provide some shelter too.


 
A misting system functions differently than a strong downpour. In a downpour the butterflies can usually get under some form of shelter and avoid a lot of the direct impact (a waterlogged butterfly is in a lot of trouble). A misting system in an enclosed enviroment is a problem as there isn't any way to avoid the direct impact of the misting. 

Butterflies need a lot of space, and a lot of species can be somewhat aggressive to one another, and can attempt to drive one another away from food areas and deposition sites. Also you have to look and see if the species defends open areas to look for mates (analagous to skipper butterflies in North America). 

Room sized or larger enclosures are going to give you the best chance of having it work.. but be prepared for total failure. 

Ed


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Ed said:


> A misting system functions differently than a strong downpour. In a downpour the butterflies can usually get under some form of shelter and avoid a lot of the direct impact (a waterlogged butterfly is in a lot of trouble). A misting system in an enclosed enviroment is a problem as there isn't any way to avoid the direct impact of the misting.
> 
> Butterflies need a lot of space, and a lot of species can be somewhat aggressive to one another, and can attempt to drive one another away from food areas and deposition sites. Also you have to look and see if the species defends open areas to look for mates (analagous to skipper butterflies in North America).
> 
> ...


Yes Ed, I see thats trrue of the Skippers. but what about others sp., Deadleafs, and Surfurs? I often see them in pics acting, and feeding communical. What if , I only kept in true pr. to cut down on aggression? what about for the moths that hide in the leaf litter by day? would they be a good for what I'm trying to do?
Sometimes I see photos.,showing butterflies with beads of water their wings.Dont this shows that butterflies are able to repel some water.
Thank you Ed, for weighing in.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I don't know if it will work but if you've got a large tank I'd try it if I had access to some. I've considered some of the really colorful beetles as I've had superworms morph out and live for a long time in tank, actually I think they were breeding in there. Was like "why can't you ugly mofos be iridescent blue"...or something  I have no idea where or even if I can get beetle species like that though ;( Maybe for butterflies a rain bar would be better then misting, or very minimal misting directed mostly downward and not at angles across the viv. Some of the tall 100+ gallon tanks might be able to support a few...also with the height you could have fans for better airflow without decreasing the lower level humidity as much. You may need timers and/or a fan controller though so the air currents aren't to strong and blow them all around the viv  Tons of flowering and maybe even small fruiting plants would be good if you wanna keep them alive. Don't know much about butterflies so not sure how much of those you'd need to keep a few alive. Would be awesome though if you got natural breeding and a self sustaining population. Obviously with enough space/resources they can be kept inside as indoor botanical gardens do it don't they?


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> I
> I've considered some of the really colorful beetles


are you talking about Chrysina sp.?, those are my fav. I think they give any dendrobate a run for the money as far as color goes. Hatari Inverbrates sells live Chrysina native to u.s. The down side to owning one they don't live long ad adults(3 weeks tops)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

charlesbrooks said:


> are you talking about Chrysina sp.?, those are my fav. I think they give any dendrobate a run for the money as far as color goes. Hatari Inverbrates sells live Chrysina native to u.s. The down side to owning one they don't live long ad adults(3 weeks tops)


No idea, haven't done much research into it yet...just fleeting fancy for the moment


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Did a little digging...doesn't look like it's very easy to get live tropical butterflies in the states, unless you live way south or are willing to import and do so regularly. It might be possible to talk a company into a small order for an individual though. 

I found these people..
Tropical Entomological House - Insect Livestock, Invertebrata, Invertebrate, Fresh Insect Supply, Fresh Pupa, Fresh Larva, Larvae & Pupae, Pupa Supply, Zoo Supplies, Insect Supplies, Buy Pupa

They export live butterflies to other countries but I think they do mostly large repeating orders. 

Looking though their list though (mostly at anything with blue in the name) I found a couple of possibilities. I don't know how suitable Junonia orithya Junonia orithya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia would be but one of its host plants is blue evolvulus which might do well in a viv and has blue flowers. It is a nice looking blue butterfly.

BTW If you wanna go through their live list and google search the species try highlighting and hitting control-C. If you just highlight and right click it doesn't work on their site (not for me at least), but control C did.

Anyways I think in a large viv this may be doable especially if you can find a butterfly/host plant combo that is as viv suitable as possible.

Here is a video you can buy on amazon about keeping tropical butterflies...


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't know if it will work but if you've got a large tank I'd try it if I had access to some. I've considered some of the really colorful beetles as I've had superworms morph out and live for a long time in tank, actually I think they were breeding in there. Was like "why can't you ugly mofos be iridescent blue"...or something  I have no idea where or even if I can get beetle species like that though


You could always try a couple of these in a small palu of their own.... (thermonectus marmoratus aka sunburst/spotted diving beetle)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> Yes Ed, I see thats trrue of the Skippers. but what about others sp., Deadleafs, and Surfurs? I often see them in pics acting, and feeding communical. What if , I only kept in true pr. to cut down on aggression? what about for the moths that hide in the leaf litter by day? would they be a good for what I'm trying to do?
> Sometimes I see photos.,showing butterflies with beads of water their wings.Dont this shows that butterflies are able to repel some water.
> Thank you Ed, for weighing in.


It varies from species to species but even in species seen communally feeding you can see may have strong combat issues. These are often part of mate selection (see http://www.public.asu.edu/~atrlr/pdfs/Kemp, DJ, Rutowski, RL and Mendoza, M (2005).pdf) for a description in mate combat in sulphers. 

The way they often get around it in "butterfly houses" is to supersaturate the area with butterflies which disperses the aggression. In smaller enclosures you are likely to see the butterflies beating themselves on the glass and in the corners as they will not learn they cannot fly through the glass. This is another reason why butterfly buildings tend to be opaque in as many areas as possible..

Butterflies are somewhat resistent and the droplets could have been due to the formation of dew. Depending on the lenght of the misting cycle and its intensity, there can be some extreme differences. Keep in mind that rain in the wild is preceded by conditions that are not mimicked in the terrarium.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tclipse said:


> You could always try a couple of these in a small palu of their own.... (thermonectus marmoratus aka sunburst/spotted diving beetle)


I've always wanted a diving bell spider (_Argyroneta aquatica)_ for that sort of set-up. 

Ed


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## singhm29 (Jun 28, 2009)

charlesbrooks said:


> by opening my vivarium at min.,the use of a rainmaker.,using automatic live feeder,and stocking my vivarium with a less active sp. like deadleaf wich spends a great deal on the ground.and maybe moths for night activity.


Im sorry but what is an automatic live feeder?


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

I saw this guy when I was in Peru and thought the same thing....this would be awesome to have in a viv but I have to agree with Ed. Even though these butterflies are small...no bigger than half-dollar... I dont think they will live well in a viv unless it was huge!!!


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> No idea, haven't done much research into it yet...just fleeting fancy for the moment


yea , I'm a jack of all trades, when comes to biology. I thought this was a chance roll my passion into one. On a neotropical terrestrial small scale.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

singhm29 said:


> Im sorry but what is an automatic live feeder?


(look into past threads) It's a simple rig. with ff, air-line tubing, and a container with a lid. you rig the top of the container with the tubing, so the ff have one way out, though the tubing. You rig the other end to your virrarium.As the ff hatch out the container. They will travel up the tubing into your virrarium.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

Ed said:


> I've always wanted a diving bell spider (_Argyroneta aquatica)_ for that sort of set-up.
> 
> Ed


hey Ed, I've got access to fishing spiders.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> yea , I'm a jack of all trades, when comes to biology. I thought this was a chance roll my passion into one. On a neotropical terrestrial small scale.


 
Ahh the old definition of a naturalist (ala Jean Henri Casimir Fabre)! Certainly a honorable aspiration. I personally think I'm in a similar boat.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't know if it will work but if you've got a large tank I'd try it if I had access to some. I've considered some of the really colorful beetles as I've had superworms morph out and live for a long time in tank, actually I think they were breeding in there. Was like "why can't you ugly mofos be iridescent blue"...or something  I have no idea


 
Dave check out the six spotted green tiger beetle, and some of the caterpillar hunter ground beetles. I think you will be very surprised. All of those do well in a terrarium (but not with frogs unless you want the beetles to eat them) are diurnally active predators which will be all over the tank. The tiger beetles will eat any smaller insect they can capture and overpower but the ground beetles prefer a larger prey item. The tiger beetles and the caterpillar hunters are not regulated under APHIS (at the moment) as they are not plant pests in any part of thier life cycle. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Ahh the old definition of a naturalist (ala Jean Henri Casimir Fabre)! Certainly a honorable aspiration. I personally think I'm in a similar boat..
> 
> Ed


Yep, that would have been a cool job. I couldn't or wouldn't jump through the needed academic hoops to do something like that now ;( Still hoping I'll luck into some interesting opportunity or that my animal and viv building experience will count for something and the local zoo or aquarium will hire me for a job that will pay the bills at least. So far no luck....how bout a letter of recommendation Ed?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> (look into past threads) It's a simple rig. with ff, air-line tubing, and a container with a lid. you rig the top of the container with the tubing, so the ff have one way out, though the tubing. You rig the other end to your virrarium.As the ff hatch out the container. They will travel up the tubing into your virrarium.


 
It is simple, and I was just looking to see if TFH had an archive of the article I wrote discussing it many many years ago.... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

charlesbrooks said:


> hey Ed, I've got access to fishing spiders.


Hi Charles,

I have them here as well but I've wanted to have a diving bell spider since I read about them in one of Durrell's books when I was a kid. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Yep, that would have been a cool job. I couldn't or wouldn't jump through the needed academic hoops to do something like that now ;( Still hoping I'll luck into some interesting opportunity or that my animal and viv building experience will count for something and the local zoo or aquarium will hire me for a job that will pay the bills at least. So far no luck....how bout a letter of recommendation Ed?


 
Actually Naturalists don't have to be formally accredited, instead they just have to be experts (often on local ecologies) on something within the wild world. They achieve reputation based on thier work and understanding of the subjects and follow the requirments for publications.
I can never remember his name but the person who used to be the foremost expert on little blue butterflies in the family Lycaenidae was a nobel winning poet....


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Actually Naturalists don't have to be formally accredited, instead they just have to be experts (often on local ecologies) on something within the wild world. They achieve reputation based on thier work and understanding of the subjects and follow the requirments for publications.
> I can never remember his name but the person who used to be the foremost expert on little blue butterflies in the family Lycaenidae was a nobel winning poet....


Ya I guess it is kinda like art some times where you don't necessarily have to have a degree for some jobs or to make money at it on your own but you do need a body of work that demonstrates your expertise. I'm kinda hoping my animal and viv knowledge will someday amount to that and perhaps provide me a way to make a living  So no on that letter? LOL.


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## singhm29 (Jun 28, 2009)

Ed said:


> Dave check out the six spotted green tiger beetle, and some of the caterpillar hunter ground beetles. I think you will be very surprised. All of those do well in a terrarium (but not with frogs unless you want the beetles to eat them) are diurnally active predators which will be all over the tank. The tiger beetles will eat any smaller insect they can capture and overpower but the ground beetles prefer a larger prey item. The tiger beetles and the caterpillar hunters are not regulated under APHIS (at the moment) as they are not plant pests in any part of thier life cycle.
> 
> Ed



I actually recently really wanted to make a viv for beetles but didnt think there were suitable ones as I thought there lifecycles were extremely short. Do you have any examples of people caring for Calosoma scrutator or similar species?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

singhm29 said:


> I actually recently really wanted to make a viv for beetles but didnt think there were suitable ones as I thought there lifecycles were extremely short. Do you have any examples of people caring for Calosoma scrutator or similar species?


 
Frank does a good job of discussing the basics here Collecting Live Food for Amphibians and Reptiles: Pitfall Traps | That Reptile Blog in parts one and two. 

Keeping many beetles is relatively new in the US but very common in other countries (partly because we have fairly strict regulations on interstate transport of plant pests). 

You can also collect some species like bess beetles (Odontotaenius disjunctus) or the native Dynastes species and keep them as well. 

As for tiger beetles, they are harder to rear in captivity as the larva have a very lengthy larval period (many take two years) but it can be done the same as the captive breeding program for some of the endangered tiger beetles. 
Ed


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

i think bugs are one of the few things missing from vivs most tanks have 1-2 types of springtails and rarely sow bugs if you took one sq foot of leaf litter from the rain forest you would find dozens of bugs i think we should put as many harmles bugs in our tanks as we can


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

vivbulider said:


> i think bugs are one of the few things missing from vivs most tanks have 1-2 types of springtails and rarely sow bugs if you took one sq foot of leaf litter from the rain forest you would find dozens of bugs i think we should put as many harmles bugs in our tanks as we can


Thats the trick though...whats "harmless" in nature may not be in an enclosed viv with no natural predators if it isn't frog food. At the very least many things will be a danger to the plants if not the frogs. Lots of things easily available though aren't sustainable in a viv...but my guess is over the years we will continue to stumble on new things. To much insect variety out there, we've barely scratch the surface in the hobby IMO.


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## charlesbrooks (Oct 18, 2009)

vivbulider said:


> i think bugs are one of the few things missing from vivs most tanks have 1-2 types of springtails and rarely sow bugs if you took one sq foot of leaf litter from the rain forest you would find dozens of bugs i think we should put as many harmles bugs in our tanks as we can


right now,if look into petbugs.com. someone have mini tropical isopods sp. (Costa Rica)for sale. under the classifieds. (mini's are smaller then the dwarfs.)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Thats the trick though...whats "harmless" in nature may not be in an enclosed viv with no natural predators if it isn't frog food. At the very least many things will be a danger to the plants if not the frogs. Lots of things easily available though aren't sustainable in a viv...but my guess is over the years we will continue to stumble on new things. To much insect variety out there, we've barely scratch the surface in the hobby IMO.


 
Often the problem is that there is a large nutrient source in the terrarium and there are boom and bust cycles for the first year or two before the "rogue" populations fall back into line. 
Adding many different inverts isn't a new concept (see some of Brent Brock's comments in the frognet archives) in animal husbandry or the use of live rock in the reef hobby or even Adley and Loveland's book Dynamic Aquaria. 

The problem is that we are uncomfortable in setting up an enclosure and then letting it mature... 

Ed


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Unfortunately I don't think anyone will have sucess keeping butterflies no matter what nature due to space and moiitsture problems. If you had a small greenhouse then definately as that's the only way I've seen it done where they survive. 

Here in los angeles at the modern art museum they had an exhibit featuring a small enclosed glass room with several monarchs that bred and lived in there. They need too much space any regular counter terrarium can provide. Mayybe with something the size of a cabinet with a really wide depth but that's the best lowest size requirement i'de go with them. 

How about walking sticks? most species are small enough to co-exist with dar frogs and normally you see them in pet stores 50cents to 3 dollars for small stick and leaf bugs. I'de stay away from larger then 3 inches. I highly doubt theyd harm the frogs, it's just they'll consume alot of your plant matter but NOWHERE near enough then a colony of hungry butterfly caterpillars would eat.


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