# My Problem With Imports



## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

_I will start this debate by saying one cannot profess to be against importation and own dart frogs, or any exotic animal really. I also do not write this to attack anyone, judge anyone, or single anyone out. This is to open a free discussion of a topic._

I have been thinning about imports a lot lately. We see that various imports that come in, Pumilio come to my mind the most. I know that thousands of animals are brought in yearly based on CITES quotas. In a limited way I think this can be done responsibly. But I wonder how much it is needed?

1. It seems to me that many are brought in my individuals (not people on the board probably) who will sell them to anyone that wants them Local pet stores who know nothing of their care selling them to people who might know even less. I am sure this kills thousands and thousands of frogs. Much more than multi species tanks or other hot topics on the boards. This just seems unethical to me.

2. It also seems to me that many are hot to get their hands on imports simply because they are imports and may be a different morph than what others have. Again, is this necessary? Are there not an abundance of frogs available CB? I am asking here, not making a statement. I know that some of you take in small numbers of imports to establish breeding stock to then offer CB's to the market, this I do not necessarily disagree with. I just feel like some people want them just because they are new. Am I wrong about this?

I guess I just feel like we shouldn't take so much from the wild. I am all for conserving animals that could be wiped out by development or disease, and from time to time a new blood line can be of benefit. But do we really need all these imports just to have new frogs in the hobby, especially when other frogs are lost in the hobby because they are no longer a "hot" frog? We sometimes jump up and down about things we preceive as dangerous to the frogs, but thousands are dying in imports. Some of these are even imports of frogs very well established in the hobby.

Again though, I owe my wonderful frogs to importation, so all things in balance.

This is open to discussion. Again, this is in no way directed at anyone even if you have these imports, do not think poorly of anyone


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I think it should be the aim of the hobby to reduce pressure on wild populations from imports, and obviously there is a difference between the mass importations regularly seen on Kingsnake and responsible importations via INIBICO and Understory. Questions of legality are intimately tied with questions about importation- what we are really talking about when there's a rush on the new imports is how to curb the illegal traffic of animals and replace it with a sustainable model for the introduction of new species to the hobby. 

As a caudate enthusiast, relying on WC animals for breeding stock as part of the pet trade is a necessary evil, because many species have proven incredibly difficult to breed in captivity (I think of A. tigrinium and A. mavortium specifically). Given the chance, I will always buy CB, but know that bringing in WC blood can do good things for captive management of any of the species that I work with. Being an ASN steward, I'm soliciting suggestions from other stewards about species that need attention in captive management rather than just 'what can I get next?'. 

You bring up some excellent points, Wayne- especially about the 'Pokemon' phenomenon when working with dart frogs. It really seems to 'label' the American hobby well- the collector mentality takes over and the conservation angle doesn't often float to the surface as easily as it should.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> I think it should be the aim of the hobby to reduce pressure on wild populations from imports, and obviously there is a difference between the mass importations regularly seen on Kingsnake and responsible importations via INIBICO and Understory.
> 
> You bring up some excellent points, Wayne- especially about the 'Pokemon' phenomenon when working with dart frogs. It really seems to 'label' the American hobby well- the collector mentality takes over and the conservation angle doesn't often float to the surface as easily as it should.


I hardily agree. I do see a difference of mass importation vs. what INIBICO and Understory are doing. I happen to be sticking to a small collection, for more than one reason. I currently have three species, and that is all I plan to keep, maybe one day adding one more. I agree though, that our mentality here leans towards collect them all. Now, it should be stated I AM NOT AGAINST LARGE COLLECTIONS. If you have the love and the means then by all means. But I am against mass collection simply for collections sake. I can think of many members with large collections that certainly love and care for their animals. But you also see individuals collection like mad to have this huge collection, and often they want everything that is new. This does put a burden on wild populations.

I just beleive we should try everything we can to bring wild harvesting to a bare minimum so that this hobby is not a burden on already threatened animals..


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

I don't necessarily even see a problem with having "one of each" but that's assuming they're extremely well cared for and you have the time, money, space and other resources to do so. I am not a fan of the mass importations that get sent to random pet stores and mostly end up poorly treated, but I think at least some importations are necessary. Most of the people you'll see on here, such as yourself and others with thousands of posts are great hosts for their animals, and if one of them wants another import I don't have a problem with it. However, there are plenty of individuals who get an urge for something new that they saw and immediately find a source to purchase from, typically with welfare of the animal being a secondary concern.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree Tommy. There is nothing wrong with a large collection if it is well cared for. In fact several of the people I trust most have huge collections. I also agree that there is a value to limited importations, after all, we all benefit from importation whether it was ten years ago or last week.

My concern just comes from the large numbers of new frogs that mostly come in to apease the hunger for fresh meat as it were. For every active DB member, there has to be many more frog collectors out there, and who know how they care for their frogs. Probably less than 10% of registered DB members are even active on the forums.

In in ideal world, I would like to see all wild caught animals go to professionals who could then breed them and pass on CB offspring, with the exception to Farm Raised animals. It just makes me sad knowing that a lot of wild animals get into the hands of people who do not have the abilty to offer the best care and in many cases the experience to breed them.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Most of the people you'll see on here, such as yourself and others with thousands of posts


I don't disagree with anything that you say, Tommy, but would raise a single point- I'm not certain that post count 'street cred' accurately reflect the degree of experience or intent of the poster. Some of the most experienced people I know in the hobby rarely, if ever, post here for one reason or another- but a veritable treasure troves of information on husbandry practices, conservation, amphibian illness, etc.


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## imitator83 (Jan 5, 2006)

I agree with everything that is being said so far here and understand the concerns. I have wondered myself about these imports and who they end up going to, and at times it does disturb me a bit at times if I think about it too hard. What I wish would happen (and may be happening to some degree) is that when there is a new importation, it does not simply get sent out to anyone who wants them, but rather is bought up by a group and distributed to the MOST experienced breeders concerning that type of pdf. There are those who do better with pums than thumbnails, etc. Hypothetically, say a new, rare form of imitator comes in. I'd rather a PROVEN expert in breeding imi's, etc. get these new frogs instead of John in Smalltown who has one leuc and just got a $600 bonus from work and decides HE wants to get a pair of the imi's (that SURELY cannot be tough to take care of and will ensure him a big payoff when they breed). In a way, I wish the average pdf hobbyist (of which I am) would catch wind of these new imports after the successful breeders have captive born offspring that they are offering instead of when they first come into the country. I think that would better ensure the longterm success of these imports in the hobby and work to better conserve the wild populations of frogs. I know, this may be a bit naive, but in a more perfect world, I wish this happened.
Scott


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> I'm not certain that post count 'street cred' accurately reflect the degree of experience or intent of the poster.


Shut-up Jason, I out rank you with posts, you shall submit to my authority!

Ha ha, point taken. I think the point was that many of the active members on the board are very concerned with excellent care of their frogs, and I think that is true. But I also agree that the most experienced froggers are largley not represented on the board, and for good reason too in some cases.

Imitator - I agree, that would be ideal, but will probably never happen. Infact, I think the imports are what they are. There will always be a demand for them, and as long as there is a market there will be people supplying it. Each person has to make their own decisions regarding this. I am not saying I would never buy an import, but I lean towards well established frogs in the hobby. My wish list of frogs are all well established. I am not one who wants every rare and illegal frog just becasue there are few or non in the US hobby.

The main problem with Importing has nothing to do with this board, it is with people who see it as nothing more than business, and I think that is the same for any pet trade.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

i would love to see a experince level come in to play , in order to get say an intermedie sp you must have good experince in keeping and breeding an easy species and so on .also breeders with the truly rare stuff can simply screen buyers , if your a private breeder you can simply say no thank you , i only sell to people with more experience .but the reality is the wholesale numbers is what keeps most importing alive {other than a choice few} and he with the most cash wins
craig


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I think this is true Craig. I would personally be selective selling frogs, but it is not my business. If your livley hood is darts you have to move a lot of product to make money and that is going to help drive your bottom line.

Like I said, it's a problem I don't think we can really fix, but we can influence it with our purchasing practices. I guess I mostly just wanted to put it out there how I felt.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

i hear ya , years ago i was big in to chameleons , and the sale end of it killed me , countless babys sold to just die.that was a huge reason i took about a 5 year break from breeding anything, even now in getting my hold back stock up im selling way more frogs than i want too , dont get me wrong some new buyers are great , but one or two horror storys make is kinda not worth while for me personally.
craig
edit , but in order to buy more frogs i sell some babys, just hope frog people are better as beginners than the local cham folk were.


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## dzdncfsd (Apr 11, 2008)

The sad truth however is without these imports and the fascinated beginner who picks up a frog due to the cool factor I'm certain a large number of the successful keepers out there (on this board and not) would not exist. 

1. If you limit the frogs coming in to only those collectors with years of experience you have absolutely no growth in the hobby.

2. If those selected few only sell to other highly skilled breeders then how are you going to get a new crop of successful breeders into the hobby? Everyone started somewhere. It would be great if everyone had a neighbor or close friend who was one of these PDF breeding experts but we dont. So allot of people just have to start somewhere and learn by experience which is how many of you I'm sure started.

The wonderful thing about today is the internet and how available information is to people. 10-15 years ago when someone wanted to start out your only access to information was either the sales clerk at your local petshop or a limited supply of books. Being new myself and still not a PDF owner I have been extremely impressed by the people on this site. With many online forums the newbies who post the same questions week in and week out are often insulted, brushed off, or just compeltely ignored. From what I've seen here the majority of people keep answering those damn stupid questions (mixing species, etc etc) with sincere answers. This is what I think creates a responsible keeper and helps spread responsible caretaking. However as long as there is a profit to be made you will never eliminate the irresponsible/illegal import practices. Just hopefully with more information being available to the common newbie at least these imported frogs will have a chance.


I'm not the best writer so please forgive if this is full of spelling/grammar errors.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

> 1. If you limit the frogs coming in to only those collectors with years of experience you have absolutely no growth in the hobby.


I'm not advocating that only a few should ever get imports. But I hate to think of them going to some little pet shop who knows nothing about them. There will always be growth I think. There are a number of large sellers of darts, and hundreds of individuals offering darts they bred. Even if every import only went to professional breeders those animals would still eventually end up in the hobby, or at least offspring would.



> 2. If those selected few only sell to other highly skilled breeders then how are you going to get a new crop of successful breeders into the hobby? Everyone started somewhere. It would be great if everyone had a neighbor or close friend who was one of these PDF breeding experts but we dont. So allot of people just have to start somewhere and learn by experience which is how many of you I'm sure started.


I don't think the breeders should do this either, in some cases I would think they would show judgement, and I am sure they do. I personally just don't think an import is the best frog for a new comer. There are lots of CB's that are of great quality available. I do understand your point that a WC dart at a petshop might pull someone into the hobby that might not have found it otherwise. But I wonder how many frogs have died in in adequate conditions because of those pet shops.


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

This thread has traveled a long way since I posted earlier. I wasn't trying to say that post-count is street cred, but simply that the majority of the high-volume posters are also very sound in their practices. There are plenty of great resources who rarely if ever post here. 

I like the idea that beginners should start with CB animals and only those with experience should really be dealing with the imports, but that's certainly not enforceable and to some extent not even practical. Plenty of people can and will start off with imports and do fine, they're just not the norm.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

tkromer said:


> I wasn't trying to say that post-count is street cred, but simply that the majority of the high-volume posters are also very sound in their practices.


I hear ya, I knew what you ment.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Yep, $130/ solarte and cauchero really doesn`t reflect their difficulty level of those morphs and undermines the whole system of breeding and establishing darts in the hobby. I can`t buy new animals and make the cost back when they keep going down in price because they can be collected like they are. How can you gat $100ea or more for man creeks, bastis or anything cb when those 2 morphs are down to $120ea for 6 or more.
I`ll tell you that my whole mindset on breeding frogs has changed since the imports. It has given a lot of at home breeders w/ little experience a chance to work w/ what should be rare and intermediate to advanced frogs. I just hope this slew of imports makes people like the people who are getting knocked out to take over and keep these frogs established.
There is really nothing but azureus established in the hobby. Every "major" breeder has a few of their own morphs and overlap on things like cobalts, azureus and leucs. I haven`t seen cobalts available in a while as well as dwarf tincs, brazilian tincs or nic or costa rican auratus, etc. etc.
We haven`t even seen 5% of what`s to come out of peru, what happens when panama closes and someplace new opens up? WE weren`t even close to ready for the sheer # of morphs available to the hobby at present and no where near ready for what`s to come.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> My wish list of frogs are all well established.


At this time I don't think that any species of dendrobatids are well established. Unless/until the populations have sufficient numbers being managed to sustain the genetic variation it isn't well established. 

Aaron, azureus are on the same path as those tincts you mentioned, they are just a little slower on the down curve. At the second to last IAD auction, azureus were going unsold at $15 each... 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

That`s w/in the hobby. I can still sell all my azureus wholesale at $25ea. They are undoubtedly the biggest percentage of frogs sold in the u.s. unless you count all the auratus morphs together, maybe. They are not as sought after in the trade but they are still the best known dart frog and will always be around in #`s from the 12 or 20? original baltimore aq/Ron Gagliardo shipment. No other frog was established from so few frogs(I know some lines came from smugggling in eu) and no other is soo widely bred from all those lines, not managed. Zoos bred them and they got out there in force. We can always have a bottlenecking of genes again esp since a lot of the first lines are now getting quite old.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Most Zoos are not working with those original azureus anymore. They went and collected a set of founders and set up a PMP (Population Management Plan) and are managing them for the long term. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Might as well toss in my two cents...

The most experienced keepers that should get the frogs may not have the money or space for the new stuff. Eek!

We've actually created a double edged sword... "buy CB!" has made it hard enough that a few experienced people get imports and try to establish them, more people get them just because they are new and just take the risk of WC/FR for the glitter factor, and well... what do you do with the rest when the semi-knowledgable mass on DB think WCs are the plague? Wholesale them to shops who will sell to people who don't know better. And how is someone just walking into a petshop and impulse buying know that they really shouldn't be messing with the pumilo? How many people really pay attention to the recomendations of experience level on the caresheets anyways :? 

IMO - the majority of the frogs - no matter how they are put into the hobby via breeding or importing - will die one way or another, most before they can breed and pass on their genes. This is something that kinda just needs to be accepted. It's not a matter of trying to change the hobby, it's a matter of accepting certain characteristics (the new and glittery pokemon trend and the mass deaths aren't going to change) and then setting up a plan to basically manage the populations despite that.

I like the idea of ASN... to keep a core group of animals around to keep breeding so that sure, a bunch will be lost, but not lost completely due to popularity trends. It's a nice hobby back up plan. Unless you get a person who goes in a buys bulk from the importers tho, you're not going to have the good percentage of the frogs go to the "good guys"... it's a business about money, from the exporter to the pet store. To get around it as best as possible, someone is going to have to get into the money game, buy in bulk, then be selective about who they go to.

And like Ed said... I honestly wouldn't say any PDF species is really established. Thousands are produced, but they are mostly related animals... they are bottlenecking like all the tincs are and they didn't even have the numbers of many of the suri tincs to begin with.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> ...more people get them just because they are new and just take the risk of WC/FR for the glitter factor...


And I think this sums-up my main concern and annoyance.

Ed, I guess I ment by well established was, easy to obtain. My personal wish list of frogs is not a bunch or rare or illegal frogs simply because noone, or hardly anyone, has them. I think there are many people thogh who will buy something simply for bragging rights, and that is sad. In a scientific sense though, I see what you mean by the fact that non are "well" established.

Aaron, I never knew it was that bad with pricing, that is dirt cheap and kind of scary. At those prices almost anyone could try their hand at a buch of Pumilio, with probably poor results.



> IMO - the majority of the frogs - no matter how they are put into the hobby via breeding or importing - will die one way or another, most before they can breed and pass on their genes. This is something that kinda just needs to be accepted. It's not a matter of trying to change the hobby, it's a matter of accepting certain characteristics (the new and glittery pokemon trend and the mass deaths aren't going to change) and then setting up a plan to basically manage the populations despite that.


Corey, do you mean in imported collections, or anyones collection in general? Do a lot of people lose many frogs when they are starting in the hobby, or is that not what you mean?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

From any source - CB or WC/FR. It's probably a little more obvious with some of the imports - especially if breeding isn't really successful with them, but if you tracked down the number of frogs put into the hobby - even from CB breeders - the number that actually make it to breed and contribute to the population is pretty low. Newbies aren't totally responsible for all the frogs lost, but there is the old saying... experience can be related to number of frogs lost. It's pretty much like that with every hobby based on living things... if your goal is to keep them around, you produce way more than is needed.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Huh. I am glad I read for a year and a half then  I have yet to loose a frog out of a small collection of 10, 4 I just got though.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Research definately helps, and losing a frog here or there is usually a good learning experience, altho sad  As long as you don't have everything go, it's always a good sign! Tho even "experienced" keepers have issues... losing a collection to heat, hurricane, tornado, etc...


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> Tho even "experienced" keepers have issues... losing a collection to heat, hurricane, tornado, etc...


Not much to do about that is there?

I don't know, this whole topic bums me out I guess. There just a lot of problems to think about.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, I know how it feels, I find it really upsetting myself. I guess that's why I'm so into TWI/ASN... I can do something to help prevent the negative affects of those things in the hobby. The biggest things in the hobby that are really upsetting are also the hardest/impossible to change, but that doesn't mean they have to continue to mess up the hobby. 

"We have to learn to accept the things we cannot change, have the courage to change the things we can, and the knowledge to know the difference."

It sucks, but I hope to due what I can.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I just joined (2 min ago) TWI, I had been thinking about it, but this conversation/topic pushed me forward more to do my part. I hope to be a steward next.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

And no locale data! That's another thing that bothers me about all of these imports. They are just 06 or 07 "imports", that sucks.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And that's why I basically like to pretend that doesn't exist. I'm going to let someone else sort out that battle, and stick to what I know and like better!


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> And no locale data! That's another thing that bothers me about all of these imports. They are just 06 or 07 "imports", that sucks.


But don't assume this makes them any less 'valuable' than ones with locale data, which, unfortunately, seems to be becoming the trend among hobbyists (I'm not picking on you MyWebbedToes, but you bring up a very serious issue). 

The reality is that the VAST majority of frogs in the hobby (if any) will never be used for repopulation projects...which is where extremely specific locale data would be necessary. Of course knowing actual locale information is beneficial in our understanding of a specific species' or population's natural history and biology, but is obviously not necessary in our keeping and preservation of wild-type animals in the hobby. For instance, from what I understand, all 'highland bronze' auratus in the hobby are descended from an original group of 8 frogs collected back in the late 1980's by a German collector. The collector has kept the specific location of this population a secret. Does this devalue these auratus in any way just because I don't know the specific valley they inhabit in Panama? Absolutely not! They are representatives of a wild population and our goal becomes to maintain and sustain the captive individuals of this morph as close as we can to their wild counterparts.

Over the last couple years in the hobby there have been a couple topics that have really created some unhealthy mindsets and practices: 

*1.* The issue of hybrids. Caught up in a paranoia about 'mixing' frogs, people in the hobby swung to another extreme in husbandry (that is just as damaging, IMO) of extremely selective line breeding. Many conversations and posts have been made about this already, so I won't spend the time or space discussing it (although I do think it is worth the time and space to continue discussing it). 

*2.* The issue of locality and collection info. And as I said, there seems to be an increasing lack of interest in and shying away from animals without specific locality info. The result is that these frogs (which I would say make up most of the frogs currently in the hobby) are seen as subpar or inferior...and as unfortunately tends to happen in the hobby, are put at great risk of "slipping through the cracks" and being lost from the hobby altogether.

Both of these trends have the potential to become extremely deleterious to the hobby.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Bringing up the topic of the Highland Bronzes... I think there is a key difference between them and the who knows what FR pumilio... I've pretty much given up on them not because of lack of locality data, but because they are just totally hodge podge... I'm not that worried about knowing exactly where they came from, but when I don't even have a clue if these frogs are even from the same "morph"? THAT bugs me.

I think both 1 and 2 are related... the hybrid issue being taken to an extreme that combined with the lack of information on the sources of most of the frogs in the hobby makes people scared of working with frogs that aren't "definate". I'm not sure I see #2 as much for "slipping through the cracks" as just general lack of popularity... the new locality animals are new and sparkly and the current popular kid... the old school imported not locality data animals aren't popular right now.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I would never consider it picking on me  

This is all very insightful. I agree on the locale data, it does not make the frogs less viable, but it does result in people potential crossing morphs because there was no locale data and the two frogs "looked" to be the same. Out of my frogs, I can only trace the lineage of one group. So I am not trying to imply one should never purchase a dart without locale data.

That being said, I think it is a shame there are people out there with nets, catching frogs (thousands), selling them for a few bucks to an importer, who sells them to lots of people who inturn do the same, but noone really know what they are. I would feel a little better about imports if they were more specific, "08 Imports of Such and Such from Such and Such". I have seen too many "Strawberry" darts and that is unsettling. I am sure it has been similar with Auratus, not being appropriately separated by area.

Your other issues about the extremes is valid too. I happen to agree with that. I know there has been discussion about the line breeding as it relates particularly to Basti's, and I think that does deserve serious conversation.

Bottom line, I think these kind of imports will do little to benefit what TWI/ASN is trying to accomplish. The more different frogs we have, the greater the chance the ones we have will slip through the cracks.

I would like to state again, this are only my feelings on the topic and I have minimal understaning of it. I agree with the goals as set out by TWI to limit of not end the need for wild harvesting to satisfy the needs of the hobby.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Unfortunately, I think there will always be that need for something new and unusual bringing some animals in - including some animals that probably just don't do well in captivity anyways... but established CB populations really could kill the market on a number of species... but if you get back to what is happening in the countries the situation gets even more complicated... the people who gather the frogs are often locals that need the money because we've tossed them into a money hungry world


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> I just joined (2 min ago) TWI, I had been thinking about it, but this conversation/topic pushed me forward more to do my part. I hope to be a steward next.


Somewhat tangental to this topic is the Commercial Amphibian Conservation Group on TWI. They are trying to hash out a method of certifying WC imports from collection to retail as "sustainably harvested."
The bottom line, unfortunately, is that the majority of importers are not in business to conserve amphibians, or further the hobby. They see amphibians as a product that is easy to produce (just reach down and scoop them up) and offers profit because there is a demand for it. But, it's also a perishable product that must be moved fast, or it will begin to die on them. If you suggested that they be selective to whom they sold their product, they would probably look at you like you had just spoken to them in Greek, and then walk away shaking their head. 

Perhaps it's just my changing perspective, but it seems like things have changed to the point that, not just in this business but any business, the mere mention of behaving ethically and responsibly, or having sensible regulation is viewed as being "anti-business," and therefore bad.
Jim


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> That being said, I think it is a shame there are people out there with nets, catching frogs (thousands), selling them for a few bucks to an importer, who sells them to lots of people who inturn do the same, quote]
> 
> Just a comment here... a lot of people get down on the locals who are often literally trying to better themselves by selling the frogs for a few dollars.. Yet when they get into the USA (or Europe or Japanese) pet market the price has significantly increased. The collectors sure are not getting that big price jump... That said, I would prefer to see the locals catching the frogs than converting the habitat it to soybean fields, the frogs can return to one...
> 
> Ed


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Ed, my problem is not with the locals. If catching a frog meant feeding my family, than I would do the same. And I agree, it is FAR better than slash and burn. My problem is more with the importers not bothering to collect this info. I was simply making the point that someone is paying people very little to collect large quantities of animals but not caring really what they are. I am very much for the programs, be it frogs or butterflies, or anything else, that encourages locals to protect what they have and use it in sustainable ways.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are importers the world over that will buy the animals without locality data, so why should they? The locality may also be a secret... wouldn't want another exporter (or smuggler for that matter) to beat you out of the money you could get for those animals. Also, frogs are often the "fill" in an order, rarely the main thing the order is for... they just aren't worth the money. Locales may also collect them over a broad range of area to get enough that the importer will buy the stock from them. Also, the people getting these frogs can be rather disconnected from the markets they are going to... how many exporters actually know the people buying frogs would pay more if they knew generally where they came from? And how many would actually believe it?

I'm also very much for the programs that encourage more sustainable and less invasive ways to live with the land... but having seen how hard these can be to put into practice, it's much easier said than done... it's takes money and the knowledge of what to do, and locales out in the wilds likely may not have access to either.

Until the hobby across the world, and local legislation and protection all combine, we're not going to see these practices change very quickly.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I think we need to realize as well that locality data is something that we in the hobby obsess over (as a relatively recent endeavor) and we're trying to influence a system that has operated without locality data for a long time, and for the importer, has no use for it. Country of origin suffices for the majority of importations in the wider animal trade that is importing for jobbers/wholesalers/pet stores as well as individual conservation-minded hobbyists. 

Animal imports are a mixed bag of species, as Corey pointed out, with amphibians serving as 'filler' for more profitable reptiles. 

It also may be useful to consider the cultural divide when working with indigenous peoples. Having befriended a number of Australian Aboriginal people over the years, I can tell you that their world-view is considerably different from that of the West on many levels. Living in harsh conditions has made them extremely opportunistic and they will exploit (not to be seen as a negative) a resource while they have it- money, Western attention, etc- because you never know when it may go away.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Animal imports are a mixed bag of species, as Corey pointed out, with amphibians serving as 'filler' for more profitable reptiles.


I did not know this until Corey brought it up. And I agree with you Jason on view point differences.

In my opinion, it is not the Importers or the gatherers, it is the consumer. I report that just came out found that The US was one of the largest importers for ivory. The US is in fact one of (along with China and others) the biggest importers of illegal animal trade. Is the poacher to blame? Sure, to a degree. But if there was not a market for it there would not be much poaching aside maybe for food or personal use. It is much the same way in dart trade. I am just starting to learn more about TWI/ASN and the goals for Stewards, but until we can be much more self reliant and self sustaining we will have these imports. Again, some importation from time to time may actually be healthy, but importing species to account for large hobby losses is not.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't believe the large hobby losses are what is fueling the importation of PDFs... (tho it may apply to other species due to lack of well known captive care and lack of breeding of attractive amphibs) but I do believe better management of the captive population can knock out the need to import animals we already have, and thus likely negate a lot of importation and smuggling of many frogs... but as long as new frogs are found, or not every frog is in the hobby, it will continue to a degree. I just don't think this issue is as strong with PDFs as say... RETF or whites (both are bred like crazy, yet still imported... why?!).

Large loss of life is typical in a trade with live animals, but having to import animals again years later because of popularity decline wiping out the majority of the captive population is something that can be avioded.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> ... RETF or whites (both are bred like crazy, yet still imported... why?!).


Because it's cheaper to pay some Central American or Indonesian farmer a few fractions of a cent to pick them up off the ground than it is to breed them, and a large portion of the buying public doesn't yet understand the added value of CB stock. It blows my mind to watch people walk past my table full of beautiful CB baby RETFs and buy a scarred-up sickly looking WC adult because it's a couple bucks cheaper (or even the same price). But, in the long run, I'd rather not sell to that customer anyway, since they also bought a "Kricket Keeper" sized plastic tub in which to keep their new pet.

I think things will only change when we can change the DEMAND, not the SUPPLY. The TWI CACG members have been talking about introducing the concept of sustainable harvesting first with the consumer, and using the resulting demand to pressure importers and collectors to get on the band wagon.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> ...I do believe better management of the captive population can knock out the need to import animals we already have, and thus likely negate a lot of importation and smuggling of many frogs.
> ...having to import animals again years later because of popularity decline wiping out the majority of the captive population is something that can be avioded.


Yes this is a more accurate statement to what I was saying above. I can't ever imagine a day when a new species or morph is offered and the hobby as a whole says, "sorry, but we have our hands full as it is." It will be more like, "GIMME, GIMME, GIMME!!!" Ha ha  

However, it is a shame when there needs to be new imports of animals that have been here some time and are bred with regularity. Brent Brock, at least I think it was Brent, or Ed maybe, posted some statistics to importation numbers awhile back for Auratus, and I was blown away. Tens of thousands of animals over several years. Where are the majority of those now? Who knows. Probably many are dead.

While I do not condemn imports, I don't condone it either. I am glad to see I am not the only one who is concerned with this topic. In a way we all should be against irresponsible imports, and for certain illegal. But who is to say what is irresponsible. I am sure there are people that would be appalled that we keep this beautiful animals in captivity period. Are they right, maybe at times. Is there good that can come from captive populations, absolutely.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

jehitch said:


> But, in the long run, I'd rather not sell to that customer anyway, since they also bought a "Kricket Keeper" sized plastic tub in which to keep their new pet.


Tisk tisk, that sucks. I am sure that is depressing for you. People are just not educated about it. A member on this board who grows orchids was lamenting to me that at the shows he vends, he offers plants very reasonably and sells very few at times, while a vendor selling smaller plants for more sells many. The only explination I could offer him was that people see a higher price tag and assume better quality. I have seen this a lot in orchids actually. Maybe it is similar with WC. People assume it is a superior animals, or maybe it is just more exciting for them?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Maybe it is similar with WC. People assume it is a superior animals, or maybe it is just more exciting for them?


Quite the opposite. CB stock usually carries a higher cost because of the 'soft cost' involved in producing healthy froglets (time and energy). WC can be offered at dirt cheap prices, and some beginner will often gravitate towards WC because of the lower cost of the animal compared to CB, unconsciously supporting the 'disposability' of some exotics in the minds of some.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I just ment that some might gravitate to WC because of preconceived ideas about them regardless of cost. You add to it lower prices and it seals the deal. I can imagine wanting WC because it seems like that would be a stronger animal, even though that may not be true at all. That's all I was saying. The main reason is probably the cheaper cost.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> > Maybe it is similar with WC. People assume it is a superior animals, or maybe it is just more exciting for them?
> 
> 
> Quite the opposite. CB stock usually carries a higher cost because of the 'soft cost' involved in producing healthy froglets (time and energy). WC can be offered at dirt cheap prices, and some beginner will often gravitate towards WC because of the lower cost of the animal compared to CB, unconsciously supporting the 'disposability' of some exotics in the minds of some.


Exactly. 

I often have people walking by my table glance down and say to their companion, "Oh, those Red-Eyed Tree Frogs are so cute, but they are too difficult to take care of. I had one once, and it died after a week." But, while it's sad to hear, it does provide me with an opening to ask, "was your frog captive-bred, or wild caught?" 

More often than not, they don't know, which I tell them is good evidence that they were WC, as breeders are proud of the fact they have CB, and will surely tell customers. With a litle luck, by this time the potential customer has broken their stride and paused, giving me a chance to launch into my CB vs. WC* talk. That usually doesn't mean a sale, but I can see the wheels turning by the time they move on to the next vendor. 

Quite a few times I've been lucky, and they came back the next month or a couple months later, and said they had decided to try again, with CB animals. At that point, I launch into my "importance of a naturalistic terrarium," talk, too, and can convince them to wait until the next show to get the frogs for it. The change in their whole approach is dramatically evident by the time they come back for the frogs. They have moved beyond the superficial "coolness" of frogs as pets, and developed an enthusiasm for the hobby.

The up-side for me: while I may lose some short-term sales, in the long term, instead of selling a $20 frog, I've sold a $20 frog and more than $100 in terrarium building supplies. And most likely it won't stop there.

*full disclosure: we have sold/do sell WC frogs when we can't locate CB stock, but our goal is 100% CB by the end of this year. Our policy with WC stock it to hold it in quarantine at least 1 month prior to sale, test fecals, and treat for any parasites.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Ed, my problem is not with the locals. If catching a frog meant feeding my family, than I would do the same. And I agree, it is FAR better than slash and burn. My problem is more with the importers not bothering to collect this info..


Just to make sure people understand the supply chain on wc animals. It may not be possible to get the locality data due to the process of getting the animals. 
The process starts with the collector, this person collects everything that they think may have value other than a food item. Often they are provided with a basic list (like boas, basilisks, mata matas etc). This person collects the animals and holds them in some fashion until the middleman comes through to get the animals. He then takes everything he thinks has value and makes the circuit of a number of collectors to get sufficient animals to make a trip to the exporter worthwhile. The exporter buys what they see as having value from the colllectors and sends them to the importer.... 

This process makes it a virtual impossibility to get correct locality data as it would require the collector tracking it, the middle man tracking it, the exporter tracking it.. as you go up the chain the more people involved the harder it is to keep track. In addition, if there is something of significant value and locality data gets out, then that whole area is going to be extirpated. This has already happened with a number of species valuable to the pet trade, Chinese cave geckos Goniurosaurus luii (see http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/c ... 137b?rss=1 ) and may have occured with some newly discovered newts. 

Ed


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I certianly see the problem with locale data then, thanks Ed.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

jehitch said:


> flyangler18 said:
> 
> 
> > > Maybe it is similar with WC. People assume it is a superior animals, or maybe it is just more exciting for them?
> ...






I vend at a couple show and there is a large importer there. Up until two months ago he did not have darts. The last two shows he did. He had some of the hugest auratus I had ever seen. People were buying off of him beacuse he were a little cheaper but alot bigger than my froglets.
Then he was sending people to my table to buy supplies ( FF, Springtails, Etc) each person I gave my card to and told them to call me if they needed any help. The show ended at 3 pm by 5 pm I had 2 people call me telling me the frogs they got from him had died.
Mine may have been more expensive but I put alot of time into my frogs and mine are CB.
Some people do not look at it as WC vs CB they look at is they can save a few bucks.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

porkchop48 said:


> I vend at a couple show and there is a large importer there. Up until two months ago he did not have darts. The last two shows he did. He had some of the hugest auratus I had ever seen. People were buying off of him beacuse he were a little cheaper but alot bigger than my froglets.
> Then he was sending people to my table to buy supplies ( FF, Springtails, Etc) each person I gave my card to and told them to call me if they needed any help. The show ended at 3 pm by 5 pm I had 2 people call me telling me the frogs they got from him had died.
> Mine may have been more expensive but I put alot of time into my frogs and mine are CB.
> Some people do not look at it as WC vs CB they look at is they can save a few bucks.


I've had a similar issue with a large out-of-town vendor. He's suddenly started selling adult-size dart frogs, and when people ask if they are captive-bred, he says, "sure." If they are, I'd like to find the breeder and smack him, because they all look near death. And they have such wonderfully descriptive labels as "Blue Poison Frog."


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

jehitch said:


> And they have such wonderfully descriptive labels as "Blue Poison Frog."


Don't you love that. I have seen blue poison frog, green and black, yellow and Bumble Bee Arrows. There is a large reptile dealer out this way too that routinly sells frogs that look about dead.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> jehitch said:
> 
> 
> > And they have such wonderfully descriptive labels as "Blue Poison Frog."
> ...



The ones he had were auratus. But he had them labeled as "blue poison dart frogs" and "green poison dart frogs"

He has them crammed into a 10 gal about 30 to each tank with a screen lid and dried moss. I seen quite a few dead ones. 
He is also the same guy that has spray painted scorpions. He keeps a black light on them and says they are that color because of the light but people tend to notice when they buy them and he takes them outof the black light they are the same color

Sorry I got off topic a bit there. Continue on.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

I tend to stay away from the really large importers when seeking out salamanders, preferring to go to the smaller guys. They typically have a better sense of what they really have species-wise, _occasionally_ with locality data. Most salamander people are even more secretive about locality data than frog people, trying to prevent local species from being extirpated (like the Eastern Tiger Salamander in PA)- particularly with species that have been breed in captivity in VERY limited numbers/instances. Ed may correct me if I speak inaccurately, but tiger salamanders have been bred in captivity twice if memory serves- in 1998 and in 2002. They require very large enclosures (more like greenhouses with ponds) to replicate normal breeding behavior. 

Acquiring WC animals can be done responsibly, but it just takes a little effort at times.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flyangler18 said:


> Ed may correct me if I speak inaccurately, but tiger salamanders have been bred in captivity twice if memory serves- in 1998 and in 2002. They require very large enclosures (more like greenhouses with ponds) to replicate normal breeding behavior.
> .


There is a researcher in Japan breeding them in a lab but he has refused to reveal the details. The reason the greenhouse worked is probably not due to the space but to the reproductive cues. We still don't really know what sets off the migration to the ponds for breeding as it can occur without rain and as deep as they are in the ground, the temps are typically fairly stable.... 

Ed


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> There is a researcher in Japan breeding them in a lab but he has refused to reveal the details.


Not to take this thread too far off track, I seem to remember a conversation going on Caudata.org concerning an instance of A. mavortium breeding in captivity- same Japanese gentleman?

http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=52763


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Jason,

Its possible. The information I was going on was a couple of years out of date. 

Ed


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

maybe we dont exactly need locality data. im fine with a morph name like the "el dorado" pumilio that came in recently. i dont exactly need to point at the village they came from or around on a map to feel good about keeping and breeding those frogs.(just using the el dorado's as an example i dont actually have any -unfortunately ) if they were coded somehow like the understory imports you wouldnt need gps coordinates to fulfill their husbandry needs, just some basic info like country of origin, what elevations they live at, temp/ humidity requirements, do they experience much of a seasonal change as far as temps are concerned? i dont know that there is any way to implement any cohesive system like that, i suppose you would have to follow a similar path as the understory guys on every island in every country where frogs are imported from. probably not feasible. ill grab a lotto ticket this week its like 40mil that could get us going at least! well some of it :twisted: .


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

In relation to the wholesaler saying his auratus are captive bred and saying sure, it's because they are FRs... I've seen them sold as captive bred or wild caught... when they are sorta inbetween. If you use the term 'captive bred' losely enough, yes, the auratus are CB :roll: 

The reason we have such good info from UE is the fact that they are the collecter, exporter, and importer... those are really expensive to set up and run. 

As for the climate information... you'd need a general locality to determine the climate information needed for the frog. You either get the whole kit and kaboodle, or nothing at all.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> In relation to the wholesaler saying his auratus are captive bred and saying sure, it's because they are FRs... I've seen them sold as captive bred or wild caught... when they are sorta inbetween. If you use the term 'captive bred' losely enough, yes, the auratus are CB :roll:
> .



Are we still pretending that the pumilio are FR? And as far as smuggling goes I wonder what the people on the board who have the imported pumilio feel about smuggling pumilio and just going over there and taking your own. For instance Loma partidas have not been brought in. BUT if someone visited the island and brought back a few im sure lots of people would rip into them. When in reality a frogger here and there visiting that island taking a pair for him self would put a lot less stress on the population then them being collected in mass and sent over here.


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## tkromer (Dec 20, 2007)

That raises a lot of ethical questions, but I think you make a valid point. The dedicated frogger who smuggles himself a pair of frogs most certainly is going to value those frogs more and take better care of them than someone who buys a pair of smuggled frogs from a dealer. Also, the dedicated frogger isn't going to whipe out 100s in one swoop, rather a pair or so at once, and that would be it. Because the impact is smaller, and the losses are lower it's certainly a lot better for the environment, but I can't say any of us would advocate doing that.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Responsible lawful collection of amphibians can exist- as many caudate enthusiasts will testify when collecting local species according to local regulations. I've collected native species under the PA Fish & Boat guidelines for study and long-term maintainance, and the impact is minimal. The key word here is 'lawful'.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Greaser's comments really made me think. Most of us would consider going into a natural environment and unlawfuly taking our own animals be it frogs, fish, or whatever, as being highly unethical. I cannot imagine myself doing it, also it is illegal in most cases. However, someone with legal mean goes in and takes hundreds, or thousands, maybe even wiping out a population (many also die in the process), and we are eager to buy them up. Does that make sense? Not really. I almost feel bad for having frogs period even though mine are all CB.

I don't know what to make of this topic. I love my frogs which were the result of importation somewhere down the line. But the thought of these large importation’s just bothers me. All each of us can do is make our own Ethical decision and try to inform others and let them make up their own mind.

For TWI/ASN members, would any of you ever buy wild caught (unless farm raised)?


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> For TWI/ASN members, would any of you ever buy wild caught (unless farm raised)?


Yes, and I have. On the captive management side, bringing in FR/WC blood increases genetic diversity for a breeding project. Buying WC animals will always have a place, but I agree that the large scale importations (and losses as a result) are troublesome and need to be addressed. However, local sovereignty is paramount when allowing/disallowing the export of local flora and fauna.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Being that imports fall into a number of categories ,I think there are a number of feelings we should all have about imports when informed/educated about the situations.
Imports can fall into any of the following with some I am sure I’ve left out.

1. Importing from a non-Dart indigenous nation
2. Importing from indigenous nations through research paperwork
3. Importing from indigenous nations through native Farm Raising practices
4. Importing from indigenous nations through non-native Farm Raising practices 
5. Importing from indigenous nations by wild caught collection

There are pros and cons of each type of import , but when properly orchestrated and followed as guidelines are intended import benefits can out way the down-sides.

Importing from non-indigenous countries (EU, Japan and the like) for us here in the U.S. is far, far less a common occurrence than most other types of imports for a few reasons. Most do not have contacts to import. Animals which may be legal in certain countries may not be legal here. Cost and hassle of paperwork , healthy animals , and trust factor that somebody will actually send what is paid for can all be potential issues.
There are a number of potential ethical issue with some frogs imported via this method , but I’ll let other chime in if we need to expound on this area.

Importing through research paperwork leaves quite probably the least negative effect on nature and has very few down-sides . Done right , this method is one that may have the most positive effect on both our hobby and the environment.

Importing via native Farm Raising practices is (now) a can of worms that even the newbie, who as his/her very first frog chose one of those pretty best guess pumilio, can understand.
I have simply stated before that the way most of the pumilio, and other Panama frogs being imported as farm Raised are not being farmed as intended. They are WC. I have not changed my position on that .

Non-native run Farm Raised importations, such as Mark Pepper and INIBICO can offer a bit more instruction and input as to how the Farm Raised imports should be run. I don’t see the down-side to these imports . I don’t have all of the full facts on both operations, but these guys are leaps and bounds ahead of the Panama native efforts. 
I understand that feeding one’s family is an important issue BTW.

Importing wild caughts is basically what we have happening right now in Panama. Can an ‘open’ wild caught effort work so as to not be detrimental to the environment? Absolutely. Is this a priority in most nations we collect Darts from? No. 



So, I think we need to be a bit more specific if/when we say imports are good or bad.
Another thing we all need to remember is that not only were all frog species imported at one time, *many* of founding species we have in the hobby now were smuggled. 

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Yes this is true, it cannot be lumped into just one group. I was windering if you would jump in Rich.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Winder no longer :wink: .


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

My first thought was "Rich has a typo". After mentally using several derogatory terms to mock and otherwise look down upon him, I realized said typo was my own.  

Joking.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

> As for the climate information... you'd need a general locality to determine the climate information needed for the frog. You either get the whole kit and kaboodle, or nothing at all.





im not sure i agree with this statement. i didnt need a "general locality" to have success with the frogs i have now, i needed a care sheet and the great info i found on DB. some details would need to be provided sure, but as long as it was done with some guidelines in place i dont think it would be impossible. like i said before its probably not feasible, and was just a thought about how things could be in a perfect world i guess.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

This was lifted from a post Ed made in another thread regarding hybrids. I found it relative to this topic and in posing a question I have.



> In the last 15 years different morphs and species have come very close to virtual extinction within the captive population. The hobby has not been able to show that it can keep the populations of the frogs currently in the hobby as true species or morphs without the additional pressure of hybrids and the artificial integradation of the different seperate color morphs.... For those who are relative new comers to this hobby (and I'm talking about you who have less than 10 years in the hobby), you may not remember this occuring with E. tricolor/anthyoni but if you pay attention you should be able to see it currently happening with some of the D. tinctorius and D. auratus morphs.Given that the current number of people in the hobby have not been able to show the ability to sustain the current species, it is troubling to say the least when people have the idea that hybrids between species or morphs is harmless to the hobby overall.


Ok, sustainability. That is a key here. The above post reflects the potential danger in introducing more frog morphs by means of hybrids. Given that the hobby has a hard time truly sustaining (as it has been pointed out to me there are few if any frogs truley well established) anyone group, does not MORE importation of MORE species and morphs just add to this problem?

I am specifically interested in Tincs. Brazilian Yellow heads and particularly Lorenzo (love these guys). Tincs (except for a few morphs) have seemed to drop off in popularity in just the last few years since I got involved. What is the status of say a Lorenzo in the US hobby? I know BYH are hard to come by. I feel it is a shame to loose something we have to something we didn't really need and that may meet the same fate a few years down the line. More and more I see the need and purpose for ASN. Can anyone shed more light on the Tinc groups and their recent history in the hobby. I know one day not long ago they were the frog, now not so much.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

RBroksie - it's easy enough with known animals, but the problem with popular imports is that they are new, and thus don't have the information online. With some frogs, their care is general enough you can use the information from similar frogs you can find on here but for others... a pumilio from panama may or may not have the same care as another from panama. Knowing the climate info can save a lot of time determining what the frogs need. The peru frogs have done amazingly well... partially because their care is so similar to what is already here, and partially because we know the exact climate from where they came...

As for the Ed comment... I think more new to the hobby stuff just keeps adding to the confusion (look at the auratus and pumilio!) especially if they are similar in looks to what is already here (and if they are imported why breed the stuff we already have that's similar?).

Tincs are soooooooooo last year :roll: They are doing their go at the popularity cycle, and all the morphs are suffering, even the ones imported in good amount most recently from Suriname (a decade ago) and the ones that didn't even have that large a population (such as those from via europe like the Brazilian types...) are even more in trouble. Doesn't help the lorenzos that they aren't the flashiest, boldest, or easiest to breed.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> i didnt need a "general locality" to have success with the frogs i have now, i needed a care sheet and the great info i found on DB. some details would need to be provided sure, but as long as it was done with some guidelines in place i dont think it would be impossible. like i said before its probably not feasible, and was just a thought about how things could be in a perfect world i guess.


Thanks for floating this thread back up, Wayne. 

RBroskie- where do you suppose the information contained in said care sheets originated? Care sheets are good for generalized information, but I find too many hobbyists rely too heavily on the information held in those care sheets and their perceptions about husbandry practices become ossified (i.e gallon per frog is one thing that comes to mind). Locality data can provide vital information for the success of that morph/species in captivity.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> Tincs are soooooooooo last year..... Doesn't help the lorenzos that they aren't the flashiest, boldest, or easiest to breed.



Ha ha, made me laugh. I happen to find the Lorenzo to be very flashy with the darf blue/black and that awesome yellow head. They are high on my list. But I know what you mean. Add to that a more shy frog and one that is hard to breed. As a hobby we could do more with the species we already keep, instead of trying to keep more. That isn't to say there are some frogs out there I wouldn't mind having that are being imported, but I would personally look for something already here first and I would always encourage new froggers to consider the same, especially supporting certain breeders.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

> where do you suppose the information contained in said care sheets originated? Care sheets are good for generalized information, but I find too many hobbyists rely too heavily on the information held in those care sheets and their perceptions



good point, but we all have to start somewhere and then learn some of the other stuff through trial and error. thats what im doing anyways. thanks to DB i learn from other peoples experiences as well, the care sheets have to be taken in context with all the other info out there.




> it's easy enough with known animals, but the problem with popular imports is that they are new, and thus don't have the information online. With some frogs, their care is general enough you can use the information from similar frogs you can find on here but for others... a pumilio from panama may or may not have the same care as another from panama. Knowing the climate info can save a lot of time determining what the frogs need. The peru frogs have done amazingly well... partially because their care is so similar to what is already here, and partially because we know the exact climate from where they came...


 
i will defer to your experience on this one, but leave it with a question. why cant these people just take a few temp and humidity readings to send along with the frogs in the first place? like i said i dont need to know the gps coordinates of the village the frogs are found near just some basics.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

RBroskie said:


> i will defer to your experience on this one, but leave it with a question. why cant these people just take a few temp and humidity readings to send along with the frogs in the first place? like i said i dont need to know the gps coordinates of the village the frogs are found near just some basics.


Ed had this to say when I asked the same question. I had never thought of it this way myself.



> Just to make sure people understand the supply chain on wc animals. It may not be possible to get the locality data due to the process of getting the animals.
> The process starts with the collector, this person collects everything that they think may have value other than a food item. Often they are provided with a basic list (like boas, basilisks, mata matas etc). This person collects the animals and holds them in some fashion until the middleman comes through to get the animals. He then takes everything he thinks has value and makes the circuit of a number of collectors to get sufficient animals to make a trip to the exporter worthwhile. The exporter buys what they see as having value from the colllectors and sends them to the importer....
> 
> This process makes it a virtual impossibility to get correct locality data as it would require the collector tracking it, the middle man tracking it, the exporter tracking it.. as you go up the chain the more people involved the harder it is to keep track. In addition, if there is something of significant value and locality data gets out, then that whole area is going to be extirpated.


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## RBroskie (Jan 21, 2007)

too bad it has to be that way. it would be nice to see some things start changing in the way frogs are collected and established in captivity.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Could not agree more. I would love to see it stop minus some of the Farm Raised operations, but that is just me.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You guys have to remember tho... these guys are just dumped on to fill a shipment of exported animals, and rarely are anywhere near the main thing imported, and not where the money is. Only through operations like Mark Pepper's can we get what we want really, but it's not in any significant amount, only for a limited area, and basically involves the person(s) running it to otherwise give up their normal life to do it


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Fascinating thread. I've a billion thoughts and questions ...

Should some or all Dendros be moved to CITES I, and if so, how much good would that do?

It seems to me the greatest threat is habitat destruction; is there any interest at all in Columbia or Panama to preserve frog habitat? Even here in the US, some loggers still go crazy when they hear a snot nosed chipmonk is preventing them from harvesting on _both_ sides of the valley ...

I'm trying to think of an extreme example - say a yet undiscovered dart with a habitat of 10 square miles. The "15,000" imports over 3 years stat seemed huge (and still does as far as where they end up), but doing the math, I get 5,000 frogs per 278,784,000 square feet = 1 frog / 55,756 square feet, about 1 frog per acre or size of a football field. I don't know anything about dart population densities in the wild - would harvesting about 1 frog per acre per year threaten it?

No matter what the answer, I'd guess that the unscrupulous clear-cutting timber companies are a threat many times greater than a robust dart trade.

Going to go read more about TWI now.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

shockingelk said:


> I don't know anything about dart population densities in the wild - would harvesting about 1 frog per acre per year threaten it?


I will let someone else more knowledgeable answer your above questions, but I can chime in on this one. Some dart have a very wide range. Often these are frogs less endangered because they have populations spread out. Some however have very small distributions, possibly much less than 10 miles sq. So large harvesting can have a big impact on a certain locale of frog that say only resides in one valley. Another thing to keep in mind is that those harvesting are not going to cull their frogs from amongst a huge area, they will most likely go for what is easiest, catching as many frogs in a particular area as possible with little to no regard for the impact on the whole population. A few hundred or a few thousand frogs from a small island, valley, or hill can surely have an impact. I am sure someone else will weigh in.




> Going to go read more about TWI now.


 Good!


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

First, thanks to Ed for this post describing the custody chain for a typical import. My friend's brother married someone from Columbia - not only had she not ever seen a vacuum cleaner before coming to the States, but the concept of its use had to be explained for her. I can totally imagine Columbian kids indiscriminately gathering bags and bags of frogs, knowing they might get 25 cents for 12 of them.

Also thanks to Randy for mentioning Understory. It sucks that people like Understory are subject to the same rules as the people that supply the scorpion spraypainter.

I've read about forest poachers who approach a village and get "permission" to clear-cut and are done and out of there before anybody who would care knows its going on. Given that sort of threat, it seems not only "ok" but "urgent" to remove enough amphibians specimens to establish a stable CB population.

Here's what I think as someone just approaching the hobby: Today, I don't see myself ever keeping more than three Dendro species/morphs at a time, but am interested in them being colorful and bold and breeding. Scarcity isn't an appealing trait to me.

I imagine most new froggers feel about the same way. I also imagine most don't try to educate themselves before jumping in ... as seems to have a lot of anecdotal evidence in this thread. It just seems wrong to sell frogs to people who are going to cause their death in weeks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> shockingelk said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know anything about dart population densities in the wild - would harvesting about 1 frog per acre per year threaten it?


The correct answer to this is we don't know. I haven't seen a good study on this yet in anurans (not saying it hasn't been done but I haven't seen it yet) however we do have data based on some chelonians that shows the removal of one adult from the breeding population is sufficient to render it non-viable in the long term (this was shown with box turtles and later with Blanding's turtles). The problem is that you need data on the population that covers years to show recruitment and population stability. I would suspect that this is a greater risk in some localized populations of egg feeders. 

Ed


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Ed said:


> I haven't seen a good study on this yet in anurans (not saying it hasn't been done but I haven't seen it yet)


I just found this: http://tinyurl.com/ejqkt - the link is a search for all Dendros in the "global amphibian assessment" database http://www.globalamphibians.org/servlet/GAA ... note results span 3 pages.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did I miss something or was there a study linked there that showed effects on populations through the removal of adults that was documented in a long-term study? 

In at least some of the reptiles that have been studied, high survivorship in adult animals requires a high survivorship offspring to sustain the population (see http://www.gctts.org/BTPT/Box_Turt_in_T ... _Jul04.pdf ). In these types of reptiles the removal of very few adults (in one study I read the removal of one adult) can cause that entire population to be non-viable in the long term. On some levels many dendrobatids fit this model as compared to other anurans (such as bullfrogs for example) there is a low clutch size, large energy investment in taking care of the eggs and transporting the tadpoles (not to mention the extra investement in egg feeders). In some species with locally spotty distribution, this could be a problem. 

Ed


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Ed said:


> Did I miss something or was there a study linked there that showed effects on populations through the removal of adults that was documented in a long-term study?


I'm not trying to be contrary, but the thing that alarmed me (and I believe others) was the statistic of 15,000 wc pumilios entering the US pet trade over three years. It can be inferred from the "Red List" criteria here http://www.iucnredlist.org/info/categories_criteria2001 that of the many studies from which the database is culled, a workable harvest of 5,000 adults/year would place the population squarely in the "of least concern" category. Which is relative, of course.

Of the Dendrobates species listed, none are categorized as vulnerable because of observed population decline alone, rather they are listed due to a population decline coupled with at least one other factor - most frequently known habitat destruction. There's an unlinked bibliography for each record.

Being really new to the dart frog thing, I'd be interested to know if anybody has seen species available that are listed as "vulnerable" through "critically endangered" on the list you get when you enter "Dendrobates" in the textfield that asks for "entire group" and with the "Entire group selected" checkbox checked http://www.globalamphibians.org/servlet/GAA . (yeah, the form interface gets an F-, but it's possible to figure out).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

D. mysteriosis is in the European trade as are several of the other species. O. granuliferous is in the pet trade in Europe and the USA. 
Phyllobates terriblis can be purchased both in the USA and Europe and is listed as Endangered on that list.. as is P. vittatus. 
Epipedobates tricolor/anthyoni is available in the pet trade in the USA. 

Is this what you were interested in seeing? 

The problem with the O. pumilio is that the vast majority of those animals will probably not be around in 3-10 years if the history of the trade is any indicator. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I forgot to add to the post last night is that those designations are based on the entire range of the frog and does not list or address any risk to local populations. This means that as long as the species is doing well overall, disjunt or edges of the ranges maybe lost and at this time this is considered acceptable. This means that it is possible to lost distinct morphs or types without changing the status of the species. This may also be problematic as more and more species are found to be complexes of look alike species (for a good example look at how many species have been split from P. glutinosus (depending on the author up to 13) which under those criteria can mean the loss of species without ever knowing they existed. 

Ed


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## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

Ed said:


> D. mysteriosis is in the European trade as are several of the other species. O. granuliferous is in the pet trade in Europe and the USA.
> Phyllobates terriblis can be purchased both in the USA and Europe and is listed as Endangered on that list.. as is P. vittatus.
> Epipedobates tricolor/anthyoni is available in the pet trade in the USA.
> 
> Is this what you were interested in seeing?


Yes, thank you!

Is it a net positive or net negative that those threatened species have a presence in the pet trade?

Are any threated species still WC?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Another reason to add to my rant. Habitat destruction.

See this thread, towards the bottom. http://www.dendroboard.com/general-discussion/topic41806.html#p307657


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