# Best suppliments to dust flies with?



## lookitsadam

Which suppliments would you recomend I dust my flies with in order for the frogs to gain weight fast?
I've been using a generic calcium powder with vitamin D because it was left over, and the frogs seem to be growing steadily, but now I'm thinking about switching it up.

Also are there any suppliments out there that will "boost" or enhance the colors in my frogs to make them more vibrant?

I've only been using the 1 suppliment for now but I feel like mixing two or three when I dust the flies would give the frogs more nutrients right?


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## bristles

Repashy Calcium Plus


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## SilverLynx

Repashy Calcium Plus as has been mentioned along with Repashy Superpig. You can tell when Superpig is used in conjunction with the Calcium Pkus


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## goof901

SilverLynx said:


> Repashy Calcium Plus as has been mentioned along with Repashy Superpig. You can tell when Superpig is used in conjunction with the Calcium Pkus


However that is not completely necessary since calcium plus already has superpig in it... I believe 6%, if memory serves me correct.
Repashy Calcium Plus is an all in one supplement, and one of the only ones that provides a usable form of Vit A. I highly suggest you get some to dust your flies with. Also, be sure to throw out supplements after 6 months, and keep the supplements in the fridge, taking out only enough to last you a few weeks. This way, you don't have to constantly take the supplements out of the fridge.


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## whitethumb

superpig enhances some colors, like reds and orange and i believe yellow. repashy calcium plus is the best. its designed as a stand alone vitamin. i use that at every feeding and once a month or so i use repashy vitamin a. sometimes i switch it up and use repashy superpig.


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## SnorkelWasp

Repashy calcium plus


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## Pumilo

Mixing 2 or 3 different brands does not necessarily provide better nutrition. If one brand is properly formulated, but the second brand is chronically low in say, vitamin A, then all you've done is dilute your vitamin A. You are no longer providing enough vitamin A. 

I use Repashy Calcium Plus and I don't mix other brands in. I do use an extra dusting of Repashy SuperPig, and one dusting of Repashy Vitamin A Plus each month.


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## SnorkelWasp

Pumilo said:


> Mixing 2 or 3 different brands does not necessarily provide better nutrition. If one brand is properly formulated, but the second brand is chronically low in say, vitamin A, then all you've done is dilute your vitamin A. You are no longer providing enough vitamin A.
> 
> I use Repashy Calcium Plus and I don't mix other brands in. I do use an extra dusting of Repashy SuperPig, and one dusting of Repashy Vitamin A Plus each month.


solid advice.


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## Tincman

Theres nothing Wrong with Variety either... Ive used Herptivite & Rep Cal Calcium D3 for about a decade (you tend to trust what has worked for you most) & Ive never had any bone or Calcium Deficiency issues in my frogs..I also have used Dendrocare sold by Black Jungle which I like as well.. I have tried Repashy Cal PLus & it is a good all in one also, but Ive had many more years with the REpcal Calcium D3 & Herptivite so I can speak to the integrity of those products much more. I think you can get people to argue that just about any one of the above stated Supps or combination is superior, but for me as long as you are using A trusted Multi Vitamin & Calcium w D3 listed above you are fine...I know some knowledgeable breeders that use combinations of all the leading brands & alternate between them to try & utilize all of the trace elements that certain Supplements may have more then others. As the other member stated, I keep my Supplements in the Fridge & only take out whats needed for the particular feeding. However Ive never felt the need to discard after 6 months, I Feel keeping the Vitamins sealed properly in the Fridge helps them preserve closer to Expiration without losing much Potency. I have so many frogs that my supps never get a chance to expire, but I have gone well over 6 months in the past when my collection was smaller & had no issues. 
The Superpig being a color enhancer & is not necessary for health reasons. A member stated that Superpig may be included in Cal plus in a small percentage? I was unaware that any of this is in the Cal plus Supp? I figured Repashy Cal plus was Supervite & Calcium..
Some people sprinkle Paprika on flies once in a while to help frogs retain color.. I have not really seen a need to do this personally, but I am interested in seeing the effects of the color enhancing supps so I have some froglets I am using the enhancers with & some I have not.. So far Ive seen no difference in the first 4-5 months, but It may take a year from what Im told..


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## whitethumb

actually this is incorrect, frogs need a usable source of vitamin a as doug stated in an earlier post



Tincman said:


> but for me as long as you are using A trusted Multi Vitamin & Calcium w D3 listed above you are fine...


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## Dendrobati

I don't see anyone saying Repashy Superevite? How come?

Our dust supplemental regiment includes the following:

Repashy Calcium Plus
Repashy Supervite
Repashy Vitamin A Plus
Rep-Cal Calcium + Vit D3 
Rep-Cal Herptivite

We dust with Rep-Cal Calcium and Herptivite mixed at the time of feeding. We don't mix any others together. 

Vitamin A Plus gets used about once a month.

We alternate between Repashy products and Rep-Cal products. 

I prefer feeding with Rep-Cal as it coats the flies better. I find the Repashy products clump up in the feeder cup after a few minutes, which results us having to work with it in much smaller quantities at a time. 

Whatever you choose, remember to keep your supplements well sealed and stored in the refrigerator to provide you with their maximum benefits. Also, be sure to replace them at the six month mark of being opened. 

Brad


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## SnorkelWasp

I also used repcal and heptivite for years and years but never had growth and breeding like I had when I switched to repashy. Herptivite has no usable vitamin a. I attribute my success with repashy to the vitamin a and proper balance/ratios of calcium to vitamins. 

For fly coating issues. Get a mortar and pestal. Like $6. I keep my repashy in the fridge. Use within 6 months. I take 2-3 days worth out at a time and fine grind in mortar and pestal. Then use it and repeat in 2-3 days


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## dawndj

I use Herptivite & Rep Cal Calcium D3 as well as superpig from repashi. I also use Greenmin, its a spirlina algae supplement. Testing it out to see if it enhances greens and blues.


Dawn


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## Rusty_Shackleford

dawndj said:


> I use Herptivite & Rep Cal Calcium D3 as well as superpig from repashi. I also use Greenmin, its a spirlina algae supplement. Testing it out to see if it enhances greens and blues.
> 
> 
> Dawn


I believe that spirulina has long been thought to try and supplement blues and greens but to the best of my knowledge nothing has ever been proven.
Last year Ed posted on a thread about dart frogs skin and iridophores and such. I'm trying to find the thread without much luck so far.


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## hypostatic

Tincman said:


> The Superpig being a color enhancer & is not necessary for health reasons. A member stated that Superpig may be included in Cal plus in a small percentage? I was unaware that any of this is in the Cal plus Supp?


As previously mentioned, Cal+ is composed of superpig by about 6%. Therefore, every single ingredient present in superpig is also present in Cal+ (you can check the ingredient label to confirm).

Superpig is mainly meant to be used as a color enhancer; it's carotenoids will only enhance reds/yellows though. Carotenoids are important in animals because they can get converted into vitamin A and act as antioxidants; they also play an important role in maintaining vision quality. So, some people think that supplementing superpig is important for metabolic reasons (but I personally do not since it's included in Cal+).



Dendrobati said:


> I don't see anyone saying Repashy Superevite? How come?


Because we're lazy and Cal+ has everything frogs need really, right? 



dawndj said:


> I also use Greenmin, its a spirlina algae supplement. Testing it out to see if it enhances greens and blues.


I believe this has been discussed on the boards, but I think the greens and blues in frogs are caused by a different mechanism than the reds/yellows (iridophores), and you can't really supplement/enhance for them.


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## hypostatic

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I believe that spirulina has long been thought to try and supplement blues and greens but to the best of my knowledge nothing has ever been proven.
> Last year Ed posted on a thread about dart frogs skin and iridophores and such. I'm trying to find the thread without much luck so far.


Here it is

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...lement-contains-canthaxanthin.html#post479560


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Dendrobati said:


> I don't see anyone saying Repashy Superevite?


I use SuperVite and SuperCal Medium D independently for my froglets ad juvenile frogs. I believe because they are young and actively growing this helps them to attain a larger adult size.


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## frogparty

Pumilo said:


> Mixing 2 or 3 different brands does not necessarily provide better nutrition. If one brand is properly formulated, but the second brand is chronically low in say, vitamin A, then all you've done is dilute your vitamin A. You are no longer providing enough vitamin A.
> 
> I use Repashy Calcium Plus and I don't mix other brands in. I do use an extra dusting of Repashy SuperPig, and one dusting of Repashy Vitamin A Plus each month.


Me too......best stuff on the market.


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## SilverLynx

As I previously mentioned, I use the Repashy Calcium Plus along with the Repashy Superpig. While Superpig is marketed for color enhancement, it contains three important ingredients which have scientifically been proven to have health benefits in animals. The main one being Tumeric. The active component in Tumeric is curcumin. I do not use any additional vitamin A supplementation as the Repashy Calcium Plus contains Vit A and Superpig, precursors to Vit A. 

I am a scientist, so I research the ingredients before using any supplement. 
The other two ingredients in Superpig that I like is Spirulina and Rose Hips.
Repashy Calcium Plus contains Tumeric as well, but scientific studies have shown that the health benefits of Tumeric are obtained at higher dosages.


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## Ed

SilverLynx said:


> As I previously mentioned, I use the Repashy Calcium Plus along with the Repashy Superpig. While Superpig is marketed for color enhancement, it contains three important ingredients which have scientifically been proven to have health benefits in animals. The main one being Tumeric. The active component in Tumeric is curcumin. I do not use any additional vitamin A supplementation as the Repashy Calcium Plus contains Vit A and Superpig, precursors to Vit A.
> 
> I am a scientist, so I research the ingredients before using any supplement.
> The other two ingredients in Superpig that I like is Spirulina and Rose Hips.
> Repashy Calcium Plus contains Tumeric as well, but scientific studies have shown that the health benefits of Tumeric are obtained at higher dosages.


There are actually a number of other carotenoid sources than the couple you mentioned in the Repashy Calcium Plus as well as multiple ingredients known to be "scientifically" important....... 

As for whether or not the levels of curcumin are sufficient to be effective depends a lot on what you are using to measure the levels as well as what systems to expect to target.. For example while curcumin itself is apparently poorly bioavailable it's metabolites may not be similarly constrained.. and if we are considering it's effects in the digestive tract, the uptake is then a moot topic. 

While restricted to people, this is a decent discussion on minimal toxic dosing of standardized curcumin in humans.. BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine | Full text | Dose escalation of a curcuminoid formulation 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I believe that spirulina has long been thought to try and supplement blues and greens but to the best of my knowledge nothing has ever been proven.
> Last year Ed posted on a thread about dart frogs skin and iridophores and such. I'm trying to find the thread without much luck so far.


It doesn't matter what you feed the frogs.. you cannot increase blue pigmentation or the blue pigment part of green.. What you may be able to do in theory is push the green more towards the yellow end of the spectrum by increasing the levels of sequestered yellow carotenoids that are being used to filter the reflected light... 
The reason for this is because metallic pigments, and blue pigments are not due to a sequestered carotenoid pigment. They are due to reflection (and in some cases polarization) of light from crystalline structures known as iridophores. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Dendrobati said:


> I don't see anyone saying Repashy Superevite? How come?
> 
> Our dust supplemental regiment includes the following:
> 
> Repashy Calcium Plus
> Repashy Supervite
> Repashy Vitamin A Plus
> Rep-Cal Calcium + Vit D3
> Rep-Cal Herptivite
> 
> We dust with Rep-Cal Calcium and Herptivite mixed at the time of feeding. We don't mix any others together.
> 
> Vitamin A Plus gets used about once a month.
> 
> We alternate between Repashy products and Rep-Cal products.
> 
> I prefer feeding with Rep-Cal as it coats the flies better. I find the Repashy products clump up in the feeder cup after a few minutes, which results us having to work with it in much smaller quantities at a time.
> 
> Whatever you choose, remember to keep your supplements well sealed and stored in the refrigerator to provide you with their maximum benefits. Also, be sure to replace them at the six month mark of being opened.
> 
> Brad


Hey Brad, you asked about Supervite, so I'll answer, but it comes with a bit of an explanation. First off, as I mentioned earlier, supplements must balance, or you may be diluting. The Repashy Calcium Plus is designed by Allen to be a stand alone supplement for our frogs. It carries a balanced proportion of vitamins and calcium. In a personal email with Allen Repashy, he assured me that the Calcium Plus is a stand alone product. He further explained that the Supervite is designed to be used hand in hand with any of three products. Those three products are Supercal LoD, Supercal MeD, or Supercal HyD. These allow you to custom tailor your calcium dosing amounts and are generally used in conjunction with UVB lighting. Allen also stated that they work well for old school froggers who have a hard time swallowing an all-in-one supplement.
OK, so you are using the Supervite, but you are NOT balancing that with any of the Supercal formulas. That MIGHT be a potential low calcium situation.
Technically, you are adding some Rep-Cal, BUT you are balancing that with their sister product, Herptivite. Since that addition of calcium is balanced by the Herptivite, it does not do anything to shore up the potential calcium deficiency.
(Now I've commented on Rep-Cal and Herptivite, so I have to follow that up with this: I choose NOT to use Rep-Cal and Herptivite in my frogroom.) It's nice to see your additional Repashy Vitamin A to help shore up that weak point in the Herptivite.
Sorry, I know you didn't ask my opinion on the Rep-Cal and Herptivite, but it all kind of ties together, to explain why I do NOT use Repashy Supervite, even though I am fully satisfied with the Repashy line of products.

To make sure I am fully clear, I have nothing against the use of Repashy Supervite, but I think that it might be better balanced by adding in one of the Repashy SuperCal formulas.


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## Tincman

whitethumb said:


> actually this is incorrect, frogs need a usable source of vitamin a as doug stated in an earlier post


Perhaps you misunderstood me. Herptivite is a multivitamin supplement, Repashy Supervite is a Multivitamin supp, Cal plus is a multi supp with Calcium.. Thats all I meant.. That you need to use one of the Multivitamin Powders with a calcium, I thought that was easily deduced from the rest of my thread. I was not implying that you could crush up Centrums and sprinkle them onto flies!lol


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## Tincman

Tincman said:


> Perhaps you misunderstood me. Herptivite is a multivitamin supplement, Repashy Supervite is a Multivitamin supp, Cal plus is a multi supp with Calcium.. Thats all I meant.. That you need to use one of the Multivitamin Powders with a calcium, I thought that was easily deduced from the rest of my thread. I was not implying that you could crush up Centrums and sprinkle them onto flies!lol


Sorry my apologies, I didnt realize you wrote Useable source of Vitamin "A" & not useable vitamins. Herptivite & Repcal PLus both Contain a useable source of Vitamin A So I was not Incorrect being that whichever multivitamin you choose of the ones I listed you are supplying Vitamin A or Beta Carotene which converts to it. . The stand alone Vitamin A is not needed. Ive gone 10 years without it & my frogs, breed healthy froglets, Live long & thrive.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Tincman said:


> Sorry my apologies, I didnt realize you wrote Useable source of Vitamin "A" & not useable vitamins. Herptivite & Repcal PLus both Contain a useable source of Vitamin A So I was not Incorrect being that whichever multivitamin you choose of the ones I listed you are supplying Vitamin A or Beta Carotene which converts to it. . The stand alone Vitamin A is not needed. Ive gone 10 years without it & my frogs, breed healthy froglets, Live long & thrive.


Actually you are wrong. Herptivite does not contain ANY Vitamin A. Which is why it says on the label, With Beta Carotene, it's counting on the natural conversion of Beta Carotene into Vitamin A. I believe it's been researched and concluded that dart frogs cannot convert beta carotene into Vit A. Herptivite was developed years ago in response to Chameleon breeders that thought their charges were getting too much Vit. A. Nutritional research has advanced since then and it's been discovered that much more Vit. A is needed than previously thought. This is why Herptivite is outdated and pretty much worthless IMO. 
I'll look for the thread about Vit A. in frogs. But again, there is no Vit A in Herptivite. In addition Repcal is just Calcium, with Vit D3 added. There is no useable Vit A in that product either.
Check this thread out. Perhaps someone can provde us with the link to the peer reviewed paper. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/89172-repashy-2.html


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## Tincman

hypostatic said:


> As previously mentioned, Cal+ is composed of superpig by about 6%. Therefore, every single ingredient present in superpig is also present in Cal+ (you can check the ingredient label to confirm).
> 
> Superpig is mainly meant to be used as a color enhancer; it's carotenoids will only enhance reds/yellows though. Carotenoids are important in animals because they can get converted into vitamin A and act as antioxidants; they also play an important role in maintaining vision quality. So, some people think that supplementing superpig is important for metabolic reasons (but I personally do not since it's included in Cal+).
> 
> 
> 
> Because we're lazy and Cal+ has everything frogs need really, right?
> 
> 
> 
> I believe this has been discussed on the boards, but I think the greens and blues in frogs are caused by a different mechanism than the reds/yellows (iridophores), and you can't really supplement/enhance for them.


Thanks, that information about superpig is helpful because I really dont see the point of buying it any more if a small percentage is already included in the Cal plus..IN my opinion using one of the MUltis like Cal plus or Dendrocare alone (since they have calcium & every essential Vitamin frogs require) or Herptivite & Repcal D3 is all you need. The stand alone vitamins like A or the Superpig are really just optional. Like most things pertaining to frogs, theres not one right way to do it.. Im just giving you what has worked exceptionally well for me.. A trusted multi With a trusted Calcium D3 source. And Cal plus does have everything you need.. Its not lazy, its cost effective & smart to Find an all in one that actually works & has all the frogs need. Im not saying you are wrong for using Superpig & Vit A stand alones. Im just Saying plenty of froggers dont & have no worse results for it. Im not telling anyone how to supplement, Im telling you what Ive done ove he years that has worked for me.


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## whitethumb

i think you're missing what we're saying. herptivite does NOT have a useable sourse of vitamin a. 



Tincman said:


> Thanks, that information about superpig is helpful because I really dont see the point of buying it any more if a small percentage is already included in the Cal plus..IN my opinion using one of the MUltis like Cal plus or Dendrocare alone (since they have calcium & every essential Vitamin frogs require) or Herptivite & Repcal D3 is all you need. The stand alone vitamins like A or the Superpig are really just optional. Like most things pertaining to frogs, theres not one right way to do it.. Im just giving you what has worked exceptionally well for me.. A trusted multi With a trusted Calcium D3 source. And Cal plus does have everything you need.. Its not lazy, its cost effective & smart to Find an all in one that actually works & has all the frogs need. Im not saying you are wrong for using Superpig & Vit A stand alones. Im just Saying plenty of froggers dont & have no worse results for it. Im not telling anyone how to supplement, Im telling you what Ive done ove he years that has worked for me.


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## Tincman

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Actually you are wrong. Herptivite does not contain ANY Vitamin A. Which is why it says on the label, With Beta Carotene, it's counting on the natural conversion of Beta Carotene into Vitamin A. I believe it's been researched and concluded that dart frogs cannot convert beta carotene into Vit A. Herptivite was developed years ago in response to Chameleon breeders that thought their charges were getting too much Vit. A. Nutritional research has advanced since then and it's been discovered that much more Vit. A is needed than previously thought. This is why Herptivite is outdated and pretty much worthless IMO.
> I'll look for the thread about Vit A. in frogs. But again, there is no Vit A in Herptivite. In addition Repcal is just Calcium, with Vit D3 added. There is no useable Vit A in that product either.
> Check this thread out. Perhaps someone can provde us with the link to the peer reviewed paper.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/89172-repashy-2.html


re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..


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## hypostatic

Pumilo - I hope you have that post saved somewhere so you don't have to repeatedly type it out haha.

Also, while it has been mentioned repeatedly before, I'm starting to doubt that Cal+ has been designed specifically as a standalone product for our frogs. I don't know how differently a frog supplement formulation would be than a general reptile one (if at all), but it seems to me, from what I've been reading on the forum, that Cal+ might be a bit too low in vitamin A. This is evidenced by the fact that many hobbyists (on the board at least) chose to supplement vitamin A in conjunction with Cal+. And also by the fact that you'll see signs of vit A deficiency even in frogs that are being supplemented with Cal+.



Tincman said:


> re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..


I think the point Rusty was trying to make is that frogs cannot cannot convert beta carotene into vit A, therefore it has no "useable" vitamin A


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## whitethumb

i think you're still missing the point. we know that herptivite contains beta carotene. the problem is our frogs can not convert it to vitamin a.



Tincman said:


> re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..


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## Tincman

whitethumb said:


> i think you're missing what we're saying. herptivite does NOT have a useable sourse of vitamin a.


Im considering the Beta Carotene which converts to A as all you need. (if you can convert it to Vitamin A and then benefit from it, isnt that essentially using it?) Its safer then supplementing with A alone actually & thats why froggers only use it every so often as a stand alone.. Im not saying anyone that uses the A alone vitamin is wrong. Im just saying that it is not needed if a good multi containing it is used. This is based on my experience.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Tincman said:


> re read what I wrote Rusty!lol I wrote that it contains A or BEta Carotene which converts to it.. I can paste a link to the HErptivite ingredients if needed.. Everyone can have a preference, all Im saying is there are multiple ways to supplement correctly. I have used Herptivite & Cal plus for over 7 years before I even remember seeing Repashys product. MOst people these days use Cal plus as a stand alone, both ways will work fine from what Ive seen with my own eyes.. MY other point is that the A only Supplement is not needed if your multi already contains it or a convertable Vitamin A like BETA Carotene..


That's my point. Frogs cannot convert Beta Carotene into Vit. A, therefore a supplement that contains a useable form of Vit. A is necessary. Could you keep frogs alive on Herptivite and Repcal? Probably. Could you have more success and breeding success with a supplement that contains a useable form of Vit. A? Absolutely. 



hypostatic said:


> Pumilo - I hope you have that post saved somewhere so you don't have to repeatedly type it out haha.
> 
> Also, while it has been mentioned repeatedly before, I'm starting to doubt that Cal+ has been designed specifically as a standalone product for our frogs. I don't know how differently a frog supplement formulation would be than a general reptile one (if at all), but it seems to me, from what I've been reading on the forum, that Cal+ might be a bit too low in vitamin A. This is evidenced by the fact that many hobbyists (on the board at least) chose to supplement vitamin A in conjunction with Cal+. And also by the fact that you'll see signs of vit A deficiency even in frogs that are being supplemented with Cal+.
> 
> 
> 
> I think the point Rusty was trying to make is that frogs cannot cannot convert beta carotene into vit A, therefore it has no "useable" vitamin A


I agree, a rotation of several supplements is probably the best practice. Since nutritionally we really don't know what the minimum/maximum requirements are for dart frogs a rotation is probably best so that we don't underdose or overdose with any particular vitamin/mineral.


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## frogparty

I disagree. If you go back and read the Repashy thread youll see that Allen has put a LOT of work into making sure his product is an all in one, all encompassing solution to our frogs nutritional requirements. 

I think its counter productive to rotate between repashy and a lower quality product.


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## Tincman

whitethumb said:


> i think you're still missing the point. we know that herptivite contains beta carotene. the problem is our frogs can not convert it to vitamin a.


Sorry, I was missing the point, you just really explained it fully now!lol I was unaware frogs didnt benefit from the Beta Carotene? the last few years Ive alternated supps so my frogs lately have gotten Vit A.... I use Dendrocare alone some days, Cal plus alone some days , HErptivite & Repcal Calcium D3 others so these past few years I cant isolate the results of any supp in particular. 
However, I had no issues with my frogs using Herptivite & Rep Cal D3 from around 03' to 10'. That is very interesting that the frogs Cannot convert the Beta Carotene. With that being said, if it is essential to the frogs health as other members stated, shouldnt my frogs have had Deficiency issues or not thrived? This is interesting to me, thank you all for the feedback. Its funny, Ive learned more on here chatting with people in a year then I did the first 7 years I had frogs.. Wish I knew about DB earlier...


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## hypostatic

Tincman said:


> That is very interesting that the frogs Cannot convert the Beta Carotene. With that being said, if it is essential to the frogs health as other members stated, shouldnt my frogs have had Deficiency issues or not thrived? This is interesting to me, thank you all for the feedback. Its funny, Ive learned more on here chatting with people in a year then I did the first 7 years I had frogs.. Wish I knew about DB earlier...


I've been wondering this as well... I did a literature search on the subject just now, and I found at least one paper that found that bullfrogs at least were found to have high vitamin A levels when fed B carotene. I couldn't find a quick paper that mentioned dart frogs though.


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## Tincman

hypostatic said:


> I've been wondering this as well... I did a literature search on the subject just now, and I found at least one paper that found that bullfrogs at least were found to have high vitamin A levels when fed B carotene. I couldn't find a quick paper that mentioned dart frogs though.


I find all this Fascinating, Im going to look into it more as well.. Thanks for the info!


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## Ed

hypostatic said:


> I've been wondering this as well... I did a literature search on the subject just now, and I found at least one paper that found that bullfrogs at least were found to have high vitamin A levels when fed B carotene. I couldn't find a quick paper that mentioned dart frogs though.


Which paper was that, was it


> In vitro
> metabolism of carotenoids, ß carotene and lutein into retinoids in
> amphibians ​


? 

If it was, it wasn't the adult frogs that were able to convert carotenes but the tadpoles. There is still significant doubt that adult anurans efficiently convert beta carotene to vitamin A (see for example [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Veterinary-Advisor-Birds-Exotic/dp/1416039694/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1381517075&sr=1-1&keywords=1416039694"]Clinical Veterinary Advisor: Birds and Exotic Pets, 1e[/ame] by Joerg Mayer Dr.med.vet. M.Sc. Dip. ABVP (exotic companion mammal) DECZM (small mammal) and Thomas M. Donnelly BVSc DACLAM (Dec 20, 2012) ). 

Some comments 

Ed 

​


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## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I agree, a rotation of several supplements is probably the best practice. Since nutritionally we really don't know what the minimum/maximum requirements are for dart frogs a rotation is probably best so that we don't underdose or overdose with any particular vitamin/mineral.


I'm going to flag this as incorrect. The reason is that with some quirks in some taxa, nutritional requirements are highly conserved across taxa.. In fact they are all based on the same basic nutritional requirements developed for domestic animals.. That is why the ratios of vitamin A to D3 to E in quality supplements are all close to 10 to 1 to 0.1..., that the supplements are targeted towards providing a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1.5-1 to 2 to 1..... 
Even the issues with vitamin A are related to what is seen in other taxa (example felids do not convert beta carotene to vitamin A, but it is absorbed and circulated through their bodies.....
Since the supplements are all targeted towards the same nutritional goals, switching them with the idea that a rotation is better is incorrect... 

The only real value in a rotation is due to potential issues with manufacturing both within and between batches of some of the supplements. A number of the well established supplements on analysis were shown to have wide variations within and between batches as compared to what was claimed on the label (ranging from 0% to more than 100%). Any value for this is going to depend on the quality control on the product... If you trust the manufacturer, there is no value in switching....provided vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or acetate is the source of vitamin A activity. 

At this time, I no longer use any of the older supplements that use beta carotene as the main or sole source of vitamin A... 
Some comments 

Ed


----------



## hypostatic

gah, lemme try to re-find it. it was a paper that i found through a citation in a paper i found through google scholar....


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford

Ed said:


> I'm going to flag this as incorrect. The reason is that with some quirks in some taxa, nutritional requirements are highly conserved across taxa.. In fact they are all based on the same basic nutritional requirements developed for domestic animals.. That is why the ratios of vitamin A to D3 to E in quality supplements are all close to 10 to 1 to 0.1..., that the supplements are targeted towards providing a calcium to phosphorus ratio of 1.5-1 to 2 to 1.....
> Even the issues with vitamin A are related to what is seen in other taxa (example felids do not convert beta carotene to vitamin A, but it is absorbed and circulated through their bodies.....
> Since the supplements are all targeted towards the same nutritional goals, switching them with the idea that a rotation is better is incorrect...
> 
> The only real value in a rotation is due to potential issues with manufacturing both within and between batches of some of the supplements. A number of the well established supplements on analysis were shown to have wide variations within and between batches as compared to what was claimed on the label (ranging from 0% to more than 100%). Any value for this is going to depend on the quality control on the product... If you trust the manufacturer, there is no value in switching....provided vitamin A in the form of retinyl palmitate or acetate is the source of vitamin A activity.
> 
> At this time, I no longer use any of the older supplements that use beta carotene as the main or sole source of vitamin A...
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Ed why is this based on nutritional requirements used for domestic animals? Is there just no available data on reptiles and amphibians? I would think there would be a vast difference between the nutritional requirements of a cow and a dart frog. As always, thanks for the info.


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## hypostatic

Ed said:


> If it was, it wasn't the adult frogs that were able to convert carotenes but the tadpoles. There is still significant doubt that adult anurans efficiently convert beta carotene to vitamin A


OK, it was this paper: Studies on Carotenoid Metabolism THE CAROTENOID COMPOSITION OF THE BLOOD, LIVER AND
OVARIES OF THE RAT, EWE, COW AND FROG.

Upon closer inspection it seems that they were using tadpoles, not adult frogs.


----------



## Ed

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ed why is this based on nutritional requirements used for domestic animals? Is there just no available data on reptiles and amphibians? I would think there would be a vast difference between the nutritional requirements of a cow and a dart frog. As always, thanks for the info.


Because the determination is costly both in terms of dollars, and numbers of animals. For every nutritional requirement being tested you have to establish a diet that is stable with respect to all other nutrients with only the one variable. Then you start with 0% of that nutrient and start the diet and sacrifice statistically acceptable numbers at various intervals of animals for necropsy and histopathology. With each interval, you increase the % of the nutrient under testing until signs of deficiency goes away. This is the lower acceptable limits. This process continues until you begin to see signs of toxicity which establishes the upper safe limit... 
As time has gone on, it has been noted that nutritional requirements are highly conserved and there wasn't a real need to continue the massive testing instead, they follow the standard formulas with slight modifications to resolve any quirks.. for example cats require taurine and preformed vitamin A... Virginia opossums (Didelphis virginiana) also requires taurine..but both of them do just fine on the 10 to 1 to 0.1 ratio of A to D3 to E as well as the 1.5-2.0 to 1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus... So in a broad general term, the nutritional needs of a cow aren't that different than a frog. 
And to bear repeating... there are no and I repeat NO supplements on the markets that were based solely on data taken from frogs. Instead there are some that were modified based on the results from necropsy reports and the literature on fish/amphibians/reptiles/birds..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

hypostatic said:


> OK, it was this paper: Studies on Carotenoid Metabolism THE CAROTENOID COMPOSITION OF THE BLOOD, LIVER AND
> OVARIES OF THE RAT, EWE, COW AND FROG.
> 
> Upon closer inspection it seems that they were using tadpoles, not adult frogs.


Actually the more important take away from that article is that it does not prove that beta carotene is converted to vitamin A.. It only proves that small amounts are found in the liver and none was detected in the blood... Thanks for looking it back up, I have a copy of it already, just needed to see which one you were referring to... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## hypostatic

Ed said:


> If it was, it wasn't the adult frogs that were able to convert carotenes but the tadpoles. There is still significant doubt that adult anurans efficiently convert beta carotene to vitamin A


Ok, did some more searching, and I found literature support for this.

Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana
Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana

In the paper they injected radioactive B-carotene into premetamorphic tadpoles, metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults. They then measured the incorporated radioactive Vitamin A found in the eye. There is a graph that shows that vitamin A was found in much higher levels in premetamorphic tadpoles; metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults both had low levels of vitamin A.


----------



## Ed

Sent you a pm about the article. The abstract is all I can access. I would be interested in the whole article. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Tincman said:


> Im considering the Beta Carotene which converts to A as all you need. (if you can convert it to Vitamin A and then benefit from it, isnt that essentially using it?) Its safer then supplementing with A alone actually & thats why froggers only use it every so often as a stand alone.. Im not saying anyone that uses the A alone vitamin is wrong. Im just saying that it is not needed if a good multi containing it is used. This is based on my experience.


Yes, plenty of old school froggers have had success in the past, without the benefits of better nutrition. However, "your experience", is not the last word in nutrition. Science has proven to us that our frogs can *NOT* convert Beta Carotene into vitamin A. 
Adding in a proper form of vitamin gives us MORE success. Less egg failure. Less spindly leg. Less sticky tongue syndrome.
Try adding it into your schedule regularly, and religiously for a year. I firmly believe your added success will make a believer of you. Many see results within a month.


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## Mantella71

I always add some paprika to my fruit fly culture mix (instant potatoes, water, vinegar, 3-5 granules of yeast). Seems to bring out colors in all species that I've kept in the past 20 years.


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## Tincman

Pumilo said:


> Yes, plenty of old school froggers have had success in the past, without the benefits of better nutrition. However, "your experience", is not the last word in nutrition. Science has proven to us that our frogs can *NOT* convert Beta Carotene into vitamin A.
> Adding in a proper form of vitamin gives us MORE success. Less egg failure. Less spindly leg. Less sticky tongue syndrome.
> Try adding it into your schedule regularly, and religiously for a year. I firmly believe your added success will make a believer of you. Many see results within a month.


Doug you didnt read through all of my comments. I have been using Repashy Calcium PLus in my rotation for at least a year now so the useable form of A is in there. I only stated that I had used Herptivite & Rep Cal D3 for my first 7 years without issue. I never said my experience was the last or even the first word in frog nutrition!lol I was only explaining my methods & even conceded to not knowing about Darts inability to properly Convert enough Beta Carotene to A. THey Actually Can convert it, apparently they cant convert enough though. From what a trusted very long term Breeder told me. Im not here to argue, I appreciate the differing viewpoints, methods, Facts & opinions. I will take your advice & continue to make sure the frogs get a small dose of useable A.


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## lookitsadam

Wow I didn't think this topic would get this much attention. 
Thanks for all the info guys! Looks like I have a lot of material to read now haha


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## SilverLynx

Whatever you decide, I would encourage you to do some research beforehand. I think most people that have commented on here have recommended the Repashy Calcium Plus as a primary supplement and I agree. I use the Superpig for added health and coloration enhancement as I previously stated. Unless I see 
symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency, I will not use additional Vit A. IMO the Repashy Calcium Plus has sufficient Vit A in the form of Retinol and Carotenoids. 
The Superpig has the Carotenoids as well. Good luck with your frogs.

Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## hypostatic

For those interested, here are the ingredients in a few of the repashy products

*Repashy Calcium Plus*
Calcium Carbonate, Dried Kelp, Cellulose (as carrier), Brewer’s Yeast, RoseHips, Calendula Flower, Marigold Flower Extract, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Spirulina Algae, Turmeric, Salt, Potassium Citrate, Magnesium Gluconate, Canthaxanthin, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as mold inhibitors), Natural Flavoring, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement). Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 2%, Crude Fat min. 0.2%, Crude Fat max. 0.6%, Crude Fiber max. 1%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 35%, Calcium min. 17%, Calcium max. 20%, Phosphorus min. 0.6%, Vitamin E min. 2,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D min. 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin A min. 200,000 IU/lb. Total Carotenoids min. 500 mg/lb.

*Repashy SuperPig*
Calendula Flower “Pot Marigold”, Capsicum Annuum Extract “Paprika” (Saponified), Tagetes Erecta Extract “Marigold” (Saponified), Pfaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Spirulina Platensis Algae, Rosa Canina Powder “RoseHips”, Curcuma Longa “Turmeric”, Canthaxanthin. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 6%, Crude Fat min. 1%, Crude Fat max. 3%, Crude Fiber max. 10%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 8%. Total Carotenoids min. 3,000 mg/lb.

*Repashy Vitamin A Plus*
Calcium Carbonate, Fructose Powder, Cellulose Powder (as carriers), Chlorella Algae, Spirulina Algae, Calcium Propionate, Retinyl Acetate, Rosemary and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives). Guaranteed Analysis: Vitamin A (as Retinyl Acetate) 2,000,000 IU/lb.

And for quick reference, compared to Calcium+, Superig has 6X carotenoids, and VitA+ has 10X vitamin A.


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## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Ok, did some more searching, and I found literature support for this.
> 
> Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana
> Metabolic basis of visual pigment conversion in metamorphosing Rana catesbeiana
> 
> In the paper they injected radioactive B-carotene into premetamorphic tadpoles, metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults. They then measured the incorporated radioactive Vitamin A found in the eye. There is a graph that shows that vitamin A was found in much higher levels in premetamorphic tadpoles; metamorphosing tadpoles, and adults both had low levels of vitamin A.


The article doesn't support the position that adult frogs can uptake and metabolize beta carotene efficiently. The studies involving beta carotene were restricted to tadpoles and metamorphing frogs and excluded the adults. In addition the carotenoid was delivered IP into the abdominal cavity. 

In addition, the majority of testing for conversion was restricted into the eye of the amphibian. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

Tincman said:


> THey Actually Can convert it, apparently they cant convert enough though.


No, they can't... In a large number of anuran species, post metamorphic animals are documented on necropsy developing squamous metaplasia of the various mucous cells, decreased fertility, and occurrence of spindly leg in offspring... All of these are signs of hypovitaminosis of A and are documented to occur in anurans supplemented with only beta carotene as the source of vitamin A. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tincman

Ed said:


> No, they can't... In a large number of anuran species, post metamorphic animals are documented on necropsy developing squamous metaplasia of the various mucous cells, decreased fertility, and occurrence of spindly leg in offspring... All of these are signs of hypovitaminosis of A and are documented to occur in anurans supplemented with only beta carotene as the source of vitamin A.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I was told by a very long term & knowledgeable frogger I trust that the issue is that most frogs cant convert enough of the BCarotene & Not that they all cant convert it at all, I dont have any data that definitively proves which ones cant do it at all or what small quantities some frogs can Convert & of what use that amount is in actuality so thats not really important in my eyes all be it interesting. However, from a practical proper Husbandry & Supplements perspective arent our statements are both suggesting it is best to supplement with a Useable A like whats found in Repashy Cal Plus.. 
As far as the statement pertaining to anurans supplemented with BCarotene only & developing Issues, I can say without a doubt thats not always true. I only used Herptivite(which I believe was always a beta carotene only supp) & Repcal Calcium D3 my first 7 yrs with frogs. Im not saying I was doing everything the best way & trying to defend that as the "best" Supplementing regimen , it was the way I was taught at the time about 10-11 yrs ago from the vendor I first purchases frogs from. Ive never had a spindly Leg issue & My frogs always thrived.
That being said, as another member stated just because it worked doesnt make it the best or mean there wasnt room for improvement. a few years back I started including Dendrocare in my rotation & last year I started with Repashy Cal plus. At least I am now offering a more complete supplement balance with Actual A included.


----------



## Ed

Tincman said:


> I was told by a very long term & knowledgeable frogger I trust that the issue is that most frogs cant convert enough of the BCarotene & Not that they all cant convert it at all, I dont have any data that definitively proves which ones cant do it at all or what small quantities some frogs can Convert & of what use that amount is in actuality so thats not really important in my eyes all be it interesting


There are small sources of vitamin A other than beta carotene which is found in the rhodopsin in the eyes of the flies. IF your "long time & knowledgeable" frogger" said it was beta carotene then he was more than ten years out of date of the best data that we now have... 
Given the widespread lack of documented hypovitaminosis of A in very disparate taxa of anurans, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that dendrobatids convert it as adults particularly... This is actually reinforced when we consider the few nutritional analysis of prey species like mites, ants and termites... 



Tincman said:


> However, from a practical proper Husbandry & Supplements perspective arent our statements are both suggesting it is best to supplement with a Useable A like whats found in Repashy Cal Plus..


There is significant difference in our stance.. You have continued to rely that a longtime frogger told you that they can convert some beta carotene which is actually contradicted by analysis of captive anurans fed diets including beta carotene as the sole source of vitamin A. This is anecdotal evidence versus actual documented methodology... 




Tincman said:


> As far as the statement pertaining to anurans supplemented with BCarotene only & developing Issues, I can say without a doubt thats not always true. I only used Herptivite(which I believe was always a beta carotene only supp) & Repcal Calcium D3 my first 7 yrs with frogs. Im not saying I was doing everything the best way & trying to defend that as the "best" Supplementing regimen , it was the way I was taught at the time about 10-11 yrs ago from the vendor I first purchases frogs from. Ive never had a spindly Leg issue & My frogs always thrived.


And how many were necropsied and had histopathology done for squamous metaplasia? If they were larger dendrobatids like tinctorius or auratus did they live closer to the maximal life span or did they die off much earlier? Your stating a personal opinion without any supporting data. To get the ball rolling on the good data, I suggest starting here ingentaconnect Abnormalities of forelimb and pronephros in a direct developing f... 

and 
Pessier, A., D. Roberts and M. Linn (2002). Short Tongue Syndrome, Lingual Squamous Metaplasia and Suspected Hypovitaminosis a in Captive Wyoming Toads, _Bufo baxteri_. 9th Annual Meeting of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, Reno, NV, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians. 





Tincman said:


> That being said, as another member stated just because it worked doesnt make it the best or mean there wasnt room for improvement. a few years back I started including Dendrocare in my rotation & last year I started with Repashy Cal plus. At least I am now offering a more complete supplement balance with Actual A included.


And still relying on anecdotal evidence as "proof" on how your alternate methodology is/was okay.... 

As for proof I've posted many references on this sort of discussion over the years and my attitude has changed along with the best data. See the above references as a start for referencing.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tincman

Ed said:


> There are small sources of vitamin A other than beta carotene which is found in the rhodopsin in the eyes of the flies. IF your "long time & knowledgeable" frogger" said it was beta carotene then he was more than ten years out of date of the best data that we now have...
> Given the widespread lack of documented hypovitaminosis of A in very disparate taxa of anurans, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that dendrobatids convert it as adults particularly... This is actually reinforced when we consider the few nutritional analysis of prey species like mites, ants and termites...
> 
> 
> 
> There is significant difference in our stance.. You have continued to rely that a longtime frogger told you that they can convert some beta carotene which is actually contradicted by analysis of captive anurans fed diets including beta carotene as the sole source of vitamin A. This is anecdotal evidence versus actual documented methodology...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And how many were necropsied and had histopathology done for squamous metaplasia? If they were larger dendrobatids like tinctorius or auratus did they live closer to the maximal life span or did they die off much earlier? Your stating a personal opinion without any supporting data. To get the ball rolling on the good data, I suggest starting here ingentaconnect Abnormalities of forelimb and pronephros in a direct developing f...
> 
> and
> Pessier, A., D. Roberts and M. Linn (2002). Short Tongue Syndrome, Lingual Squamous Metaplasia and Suspected Hypovitaminosis a in Captive Wyoming Toads, _Bufo baxteri_. 9th Annual Meeting of the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians, Reno, NV, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And still relying on anecdotal evidence as "proof" on how your alternate methodology is/was okay....
> 
> As for proof I've posted many references on this sort of discussion over the years and my attitude has changed along with the best data. See the above references as a start for referencing....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I don't need to reference at all, you have done enough of that..lol Ive got plenty material should I get a moment to read.. Thanks.. I have not stated opinion when I talked about having frogs for 7 years & using Herptivite & Repcal Calcium D3, that was a fact & that method did well for me during a time when I was not aware of a better formula. I didn't get any tests done because none of my frogs died abnormally or early & I even have a group of Auratus from when I first started. 
I was only stating what someone I trust told me because I value his opinion. Its completely untrue that I "relied on anecdotal proof to validate my methodology"!lol Ive already stated about 3 times now that my first 7 years frogging I wasn't using the best supplement regimen so why would I defend a system this thread has proven to not be the best course of action? I was merely stating that it worked.. You can imagine in your mind that the frogs were sick or that they had issues that would've been detected had tests been done, but you cant prove that any more then I can prove they were in good health. Perhaps they were getting the Vitamin A from the Flies Eyes as you suggested.. Or maybe it was the other insects Id throw in once in a while. Im not sure, but my frogs did well during that period. I didn't realize I had to make a statement & attach an Article to be useful here.. Id like to get back to the point Which is the *BEst Supplements to USe* I for the Past Couple of years have used Repashy Cal plus, Dendrocare , & still HErptivite & Repcal D3, I alternate, Which Im aware others frown upon & think you should stick to the sup you trust to be the best. Im not saying that's the best recipe, Im just saying its the one I use & the frogs are all breeding & thriving with a healthy morph rate. Im glad I learned about the BEta Carotene & Vitamin A issue because now I can ensure I don't ever run into an issue.


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## Dendro Dave

This Thread isn't visual enough, so here...

Feeding time for my red Galacts with Calcium + and the occasional superpig. (Notice the blue flowers)


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## Dendrobait

Are their any differences between Repashys T-rex Bearded Dragon dust and Leopard gecko dust?, and any significant differences from Repashy Calcium plus? A cursory glance at the ingredients show them to be identical.

Zoomed Reptivite also contains available vitamin A. But I haven't heard of anyone using it with their frogs.

The fact that success was had with Rep-cal/Herptivite could be due to varied diets or some other source of vit A we can't tease out. Would microfauna or FF convert beta carotenes to vitamin A for the frogs? Say you gutload isopods with a chunk of mango, papaya, or similar fruit.


----------



## Tincman

Dendrobait said:


> Are their any differences between Repashys T-rex Bearded Dragon dust and Leopard gecko dust?, and any significant differences from Repashy Calcium plus? A cursory glance at the ingredients show them to be identical.
> 
> Zoomed Reptivite also contains available vitamin A. But I haven't heard of anyone using it with their frogs.
> 
> The fact that success was had with Rep-cal/Herptivite could be due to varied diets or some other source of vit A we can't tease out. Would microfauna or FF convert beta carotenes to vitamin A for the frogs? Say you gutload isopods with a chunk of mango, papaya, or similar fruit.


Thats funny, I was wondering the same thing about insects diet & if/how it affects the nutritional value to the frogs with respect to Available useable Coenzymes/vitamins... I used to feed a larger variety of insects & larvae years ago when I had lizards to help eat the bugs that got too large & reproduced in large numbers, but now I pretty much use Melos raised on standard fly media as a staple so proper supplementing is crucial.. It seems most people believe Repashy Cal plus is the most complete & effective Stand alone Supp for frogs containing all they need in one container.. I may have gotten away with Herptivite & Repcal Calcium D3 for years in the past when I didnt know any better, but to be honest Im not sure how or why.. Im just glad Ive introduced better more complete supplements into my regimen the last few years.. Man you treat your Isos good man? you would give them a Fresh Mango!?lol I dont know if I could share...


----------



## hillblazer

Is it okay to dust with Superpig weekly?


----------



## SilverLynx

Yes, it is ok to use Superpig weekly. I use two to three times a week. 

Thanks,
Lane,aka,SilverLynx


----------



## mfsidore

Are here any other supplements that are better then these or anything like that?


----------



## Pubfiction

I think the OPs question is most directly answered with Repashy Calcium plus. I know a lot of breeder rotate but its hard for me to tell if they do that because of old habit or because it cost them nothing more since they have so many frogs, or maybe they just like selling lots of supplements most of which you will throw out. What I know is I have hardly made a dent in my the amount of supplements I have in a bottle of calcium plus and it is about to go on 6 months and it will need replaced. (I have 6 frogs right now) So if you have less than 15 frogs Calcium plus will probably work fine and save you money. Based on the OPs signature 1 supplement will be good enough. 



I am most curious to hear about color though and superpig. Is superpig a waste if Calcium plus has the nutrients or does it improve color?


----------



## PDFanatic

Anyone have thoughts/comments on nekton products?


----------



## Dendro Dave

PDFanatic said:


> Anyone have thoughts/comments on nekton products?


I used their old color enhancer years ago, as did many other dart froggers then, but I haven't heard any in a long time. Current wisdome is repashy calcium icb, repashy superpig, and occasional repashy vit A. 



Pubfiction said:


> I am most curious to hear about color though and superpig. Is superpig a waste if Calcium plus has the nutrients or does it improve color?


(Ingredients are usually listed by most % of total mix first).
_ super pig INGREDIENTS: Calendula Flower “Pot Marigold”, Capsicum Annuum Extract “Paprika” (Saponified), Tagetes Erecta Extract “Marigold” (Saponified), Pfaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Spirulina Platensis Algae, Rosa Canina Powder “RoseHips”, Curcuma Longa “Turmeric”, Canthaxanthin.
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 6%, Crude Fat min. 1%, Crude Fat max. 3%, Crude Fiber max. 10%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 8%. Total Carotenoids min. 3,000 mg/lb._

*VS*

_Calcium plus INGREDIENTS: Calcium Carbonate, Dried Kelp, Cellulose (as carrier), Brewer’s Yeast, RoseHips, Calendula Flower, Marigold Flower Extract, Phaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Paprika Extract, Spirulina Algae, Turmeric, Salt, Potassium Citrate, Magnesium Gluconate, Canthaxanthin, Calcium Propionate and Potassium Sorbate (as mold inhibitors), Natural Flavoring, Lecithin, Rosemary Extract and Mixed Tocopherols (as preservatives), Vitamins (Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D Supplement, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Beta Carotene, Pantothenic Acid, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement).
Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 2%, Crude Fat min. 0.2%, Crude Fat max. 0.6%, Crude Fiber max. 1%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 35%, Calcium min. 17%, Calcium max. 20%, Phosphorus min. 0.6%, Vitamin E min. 2,000 IU/lb, Vitamin D min. 20,000 IU/lb, Vitamin A min. 200,000 IU/lb. Total Carotenoids min. 500 mg/lb._

So for color you'd probably want super pig, and anecdotal reports from froggers and personal use suggest that is is better then standard supps for color.


----------



## Pumilo

Hey Dave, I hope that you simply misspoke, rather than have supplements that old. If you have a bottle of Repashy Calcium ICB you might want to consider replacement. Repashy Calcium ICB was replaced by Repashy Calcium Plus something like 1.5 or 2 years ago. They are essentially the same, but if the bottle says ICB, then it's time for a fresh bottle.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Pumilo said:


> Hey Dave, I hope that you simply misspoke, rather than have supplements that old. If you have a bottle of Repashy Calcium ICB you might want to consider replacement. Repashy Calcium ICB was replaced by Repashy Calcium Plus something like 1.5 or 2 years ago. They are essentially the same, but if the bottle says ICB, then it's time for a fresh bottle.


LoL... misspoke. I don't always do it every 6 months, but I'm not that bad!  ...In fact if I don't use them by 6 months or close I'll just stop using supps till I get around to getting them again. It may not be ideal, but I think as long as you don't wait to long it is less risky then bad supps.


----------



## Pumilo

Dendro Dave said:


> LoL... misspoke. I don't always do it every 6 months, but I'm not that bad!  ...In fact if I don't use them by 6 months or close I'll just stop using supps till I get around to getting them again. It may not be ideal, but I think as long as you don't wait to long it is less risky then bad supps.


Ok, good. I knew you had been away for a while and was afraid you picked up some old inventory somewhere.


----------



## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> LoL... misspoke. I don't always do it every 6 months, but I'm not that bad!  ...In fact if I don't use them by 6 months or close I'll just stop using supps till I get around to getting them again. It may not be ideal, but I think as long as you don't wait to long it is less risky then bad supps.


Hmmm.... maybe... There are deficiencies that can result from both actions... continual usage can result in conditional deficiencies in things like fat soluble vitamins.. while lack of vitamin usage can result in poor calcium to phosphorus ratios which as we know can result in a form of MBD... or they can end up with conditional deficiencies of trace mineral/vitamins... It's a calculated risk depending on how long it takes, but a few weeks shouldn't be an issue... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Allen Repashy

Great read on this thread guys. 

I thought I would share the thread I just started that has a link to an new publication on Carotenoids that will once again, change the way we think about them......... 

The value and importance of these compounds just can't be underestimated!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-probiotic-effect-skin-frogs.html#post1835041

Cheers, Allen


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## Ed

Thanks Allen

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> Hmmm.... maybe... There are deficiencies that can result from both actions... continual usage can result in conditional deficiencies in things like fat soluble vitamins.. while lack of vitamin usage can result in poor calcium to phosphorus ratios which as we know can result in a form of MBD... or they can end up with conditional deficiencies of trace mineral/vitamins... It's a calculated risk depending on how long it takes, but a few weeks shouldn't be an issue...
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


That's interesting Ed. Any idea on how you would better reintroduce supplements when the frogs have been on a break? or in transitioning from possibly old supps to fresher ones. Just start doing it regularly, or should you maybe ease them back into 1 day a week or 2, for a few weeks?


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## Ed

Dendro Dave said:


> That's interesting Ed. Any idea on how you would better reintroduce supplements when the frogs have been on a break? or in transitioning from possibly old supps to fresher ones. Just start doing it regularly, or should you maybe ease them back into 1 day a week or 2, for a few weeks?


Just start the new ones as soon as you get them. Trying to ease into them isn't going to help the situation as deficiencies are probably not going to get enough of the new supplements to correct it otherwise. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## lookitsadam

On the topic of pigment enhancing suppliments what have you guys used? I've noticed the colors in my Bastis starting to fade slightly and would love to keep the red/orange color as bright as possible.
I know there's repashy superpig and I've also heard of some people using paprika (does that actually work?)


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## Ed

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/73478-paprika.html

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

lookitsadam said:


> On the topic of pigment enhancing suppliments what have you guys used? I've noticed the colors in my Bastis starting to fade slightly and would love to keep the red/orange color as bright as possible.
> I know there's repashy superpig and I've also heard of some people using paprika (does that actually work?)


Repashy SuperPig
Calendula Flower “Pot Marigold”, Capsicum Annuum Extract “Paprika” (Saponified), Tagetes Erecta Extract “Marigold” (Saponified), Pfaffia Rhodozyma Yeast, Spirulina Platensis Algae, Rosa Canina Powder “RoseHips”, Curcuma Longa “Turmeric”, Canthaxanthin. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein min. 6%, Crude Fat min. 1%, Crude Fat max. 3%, Crude Fiber max. 10%, Moisture max. 8%, Ash max. 8%. Total Carotenoids min. 3,000 mg/lb.


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## Celtic Aaron

Dendro Dave said:


> This Thread isn't visual enough, so here...
> 
> Feeding time for my red Galacts with Calcium + and the occasional superpig. (Notice the blue flowers)


Dave,

I have enjoyed reading this thread, and as a relatively new 1+ year (but very enthusiastic and passionate) frogger, I am always looking for ways to improve. I use Zoo Med's Repti Calcium along with Repashy's Vitamin A Plus and another vitamin supplement that I cannot think of at this time. Based on the conversation that I have read, I am certainly considering using Repashy's Calcium Plus. With that said, I am intrigued by how you feed your frogs in the video. You put your flies in a petri dish and they seem to hang out in that one corner and stay there. How do you do that? I simply dump them in the viv and they scatter all over the place. The frogs hunt and are very healthy, but it would be neat to see them come to the dish and dine. Thanks.

Aaron


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## Dendro Dave

Celtic Aaron said:


> Dave,
> 
> I have enjoyed reading this thread, and as a relatively new 1+ year (but very enthusiastic and passionate) frogger, I am always looking for ways to improve. I use Zoo Med's Repti Calcium along with Repashy's Vitamin A Plus and another vitamin supplement that I cannot think of at this time. Based on the conversation that I have read, I am certainly considering using Repashy's Calcium Plus. With that said, I am intrigued by how you feed your frogs in the video. You put your flies in a petri dish and they seem to hang out in that one corner and stay there. How do you do that? I simply dump them in the viv and they scatter all over the place. The frogs hunt and are very healthy, but it would be neat to see them come to the dish and dine. Thanks.
> 
> Aaron


I haven't really looked at zoo med's supplement. Repashy was/is all the rage so I just jumped on the bandwagon  

...As for feeding flies like that, I just dump them into a cup with some supplement powder (shake em around a bit to get em covered),then pour them into the petri dish. It was a clean enough dish that with the powder on them very few could climb up and out. The reason they are all in that one end is the dish was just sitting at an angle, not really necessary, just a result of that stump not being level.  

I often just dump flies in also, but doing it this way can help you monitor how much each frog is eating, and keeps supplement powder off plants/moss which can be kinda bad for the plants.


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## Celtic Aaron

Dendro Dave said:


> I haven't really looked at zoo med's supplement. Repashy was/is all the rage so I just jumped on the bandwagon
> 
> ...As for feeding flies like that, I just dump them into a cup with some supplement powder (shake em around a bit to get em covered),then pour them into the petri dish. It was a clean enough dish that with the powder on them very few could climb up and out. The reason they are all in that one end is the dish was just sitting at an angle, not really necessary, just a result of that stump not being level.
> 
> I often just dump flies in also, but doing it this way can help you monitor how much each frog is eating, and keeps supplement powder off plants/moss which can be kinda bad for the plants.


Thanks Dave. I am going to give it a try. As for the bandwagon...I am getting on for the ride!


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