# Feeding Termite's



## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

I've had a lot of questions about feeding termite's to frogs and thought I would post some info here and a how to... 

First I have to say that feeding termite's to frogs is a great way to fatten up frogs that may have been dewormed, been breeding heavily, recently imported or have general stress or health issues. Likewise it is a good food for froglets including thumbnails as most termite's are quite small (there are exceptions)They are high in fat and protein and are easy for the frogs to digest.

I have never fed frogs ONLY termite's. I'm just not sure if feeding such a high protein high fat diet would be good. Unfortunately there is no way to gut load the insects but they calcium and vitamin dust sticks well to them and as with FF's is recommended.

Feeding the bugs is fairly easy. What I do is take a deli cup lid or petri dish and "tap" what's needed onto them. Then simply place the dish in your viv and watch the feeding frenzy!! The termite's wont be able to crawl over the edge, your frogs however may sling them around... I actually put a small stone in the center of the dish to make sure the frogs don't flip the dish over and sling termite's all over. Leave the same stone in your viv and don't use the same stone for multiple viv's. That may cause the inadvertant spread of harmful pathanogen's from tank to tank. *Be sure if you have a misting system to make sure you either take the uneaten termite's out and put them back in the culture. Otherwise you'll have a bunch of dead and drowned termite's that your frogs wont eat. 

All in all termite's are great food for frogs (and lizards). I personally have never seen any species or morph of frog refuse to eat them, regardless of size! THUMBS LOVE THEM!!! If you have anything to add or questions I'd love to hear from you!!

JP


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## maxdendros (May 29, 2009)

Great info thanks!


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

my imis, auratus, and leucs go nuts for them. I just dump em into the viv without putting em in a dish, they dont last long enough to think about escape


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

I forgot to ask this but I'd like to know if you can over feed frogs termite's? For instance can they get gout or a similar dissorder from eating foods that are too rich??

JP


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## maxdendros (May 29, 2009)

Yes frogs can become obese so I don't reccomend feeding termites 24/7.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I would assume they can get too much of a good thing. In nature, they may eat them daily if there is a colony in their territory, but I bet they get a lot more excercise too. Im just feeding once a week with the termites. 25 per frog for he big ones, 15 per frog for the imis Otherwise, they get ffs and woodlice the rest of the time


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> I would assume they can get too much of a good thing. In nature, they may eat them daily if there is a colony in their territory, but I bet they get a lot more excercise too. Im just feeding once a week with the termites. 25 per frog for he big ones, 15 per frog for the imis Otherwise, they get ffs and woodlice the rest of the time


Okay this isn't a hijack but a crossover between two threads as it illustrates a point I was trying to make in anothe thread.. 



frogparty said:


> I microwave, pressure cook or bleach bath EVERYTHING that goes in my vivs. I dont mind if they break down a bit faster, I can always get more


Can anyone here explain to me why it is necessary to disinfect everything but the wild collected feeders like termites? Is there any reason why there is a perception that the termites or the substrate in which they are collected, shipped, housed any safer than the materials than say the leaf litter? 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> I forgot to ask this but I'd like to know if you can over feed frogs termite's? For instance can they get gout or a similar dissorder from eating foods that are too rich??
> 
> JP


Yes you can overfeed with termites. Many captive frogs are already obese and termites are very high in fats and this can cause many of the same problems as with other animals, 
fatty liver, heart issues..etc... 

Ed


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Ed said:


> Yes you can overfeed with termites. Many captive frogs are already obese and termites are very high in fats and this can cause many of the same problems as with other animals,
> fatty liver, heart issues..etc...
> 
> Ed


Is there any evidence that feeding frogs high in fat makes them obese?


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

What would be a good rule of thumb? How many times a week would be ok to feed termite's and how many per feeding... say for a tinc (x) and a pumilio (x)... Thanks

JP

By the way... where I collect termite's is in a virgin pine forrest


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Well Ed, I can't ever create a sterile environment in a viv, but I can take precautions. I don't know what kind of sterility he woodlice cultures I have came from initially, nor can I guarantee that the zucchni I feed thm is free of parasites( I know I got mites in one from feeding unwashed zucchini.) However, after battling slugs and snails, mini centipedes, whitefly and more slugs, and more slugs, I feel its worth the time. At least half my sterility paranoia is to keep these pests away from my vivs, because I have had a hell of a time removing them once they were in. I use sprig water that I cant guarantee as well. I have access to deionized water, but Im not too worried about it. Mosses from outside especially seem to harbor excessive amounts of life, and although I don't know if chytrid spores can be killed in a bleach bath, it sure kills slug eggs.


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Is there a thread on culturing woodlice anywhere? I like being able to feed my animals a variety of foods and that's one I've been thinking of trying. Thx

JP


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

its super easy 
Mark Budde just posted one, I think it got made a sticky in the food and feeding section
I use coco fiber chunks moistened as substrate with cardboar on top, and feed zucchini, carrot, and fish flakes. The orange are the best producers for me, te dwarf temperates close behind. The whites seem slower, but I think if I kept them warmer they would speed up a bit.
Im experimenting with a stacked cardboard culture for ease of removal, but I just starte it, and it will be a while before I find out if it works


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> Well Ed, I can't ever create a sterile environment in a viv, but I can take precautions. I don't know what kind of sterility he woodlice cultures I have came from initially, nor can I guarantee that the zucchni I feed thm is free of parasites( I know I got mites in one from feeding unwashed zucchini.) However, after battling slugs and snails, mini centipedes, whitefly and more slugs, and more slugs, I feel its worth the time. At least half my sterility paranoia is to keep these pests away from my vivs, because I have had a hell of a time removing them once they were in. I use sprig water that I cant guarantee as well. I have access to deionized water, but Im not too worried about it. Mosses from outside especially seem to harbor excessive amounts of life, and although I don't know if chytrid spores can be killed in a bleach bath, it sure kills slug eggs.


A simple through air drying will also kill slugs as well as Bd.. I am referring not necessarily to plants but to leaf litter, pieces of wood.. etc..

With respect to the termites, you are taking the same risk of introducing Rhabdias (on the substrate/dirt), coccidia.. iridioviruses.. I find it interesting that there is a lot of paranoia over the inconvience from some "pests" but little to no concern about potentially significant pathogens... 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Can't that come from everything we feed frogs? FF's, springs, isopods, etc...?


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## RecycledAgain (Oct 26, 2008)

I'm not sure to be honest.. most all of my frog decisions come from here.
I weigh the info I get from posts and make a decision based on past experience combined with common sense.

I have always found what I considered some peoples paranoia commonly disregarded by some... interesting question Ed .

Dan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markbudde said:


> Is there any evidence that feeding frogs high in fat makes them obese?


Lots.. some of the easiest examples that provide a graphic description are the frogs that develop corneal lipidosis when overfed.... these frogs on blood analysis have huge amounts of circulating lipids in their blood streams for extended periods of time.. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Well, we can only control what we can control. I would gladly pay for " clean" termites and other feeders. Can they ever be clean though? starting a culture with wild collected animals will just bring unwanted "baddies" into a new sterile culture.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Can't that come from everything we feed frogs? FF's, springs, isopods, etc...?


Only if you are collecting everything from the wild.. that is one of the reasons behind a trend to try and culture a wide variety of feeders. Now I am not saying that feeding collected insects is bad.. what I am saying is that we have a dichotomy of decision on what is and isn't a good practice. 
I am not saying that we shouldn't be disinfecting things but there isn't any need to disinfect certain items like cork bark that has been imported and stored dry as it was fumigated on import and won't contain any insects (if it had contained any invertebrates and they were found, the whole order would have been confiscated and burned)... but there are things that do not need to be exposed to these elaborate treatments as some simple basic precautions will give you the same result. 

I have at more than one time regretted pointing out in a couple of places that plants can be disinfected to prevent transfer of pathogens like Rhabdias between enclosures.. Bd is starting to look like it it widely distributed across the US but basically all that is needed to prevent the risk of tranmission is a through drying as Bd does not appear to have a resting spore at this time...... 

Some comments

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Isn't that a very common problem with feeding crickets, to anything, not just frogs?

So what's the sollution? Use plastic lants and feed them tofu? LOL

Seriously though... There are sooo many different opinions but everyone seems to have their own success and failures... That's what makes this sooo much fun!!!

JP


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> Well, we can only control what we can control. I would gladly pay for " clean" termites and other feeders. Can they ever be clean though? starting a culture with wild collected animals will just bring unwanted "baddies" into a new sterile culture.


Depends on the pathogen.. as many can be removed via serial cultures.. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

by thoroughly drying,whats the best method? some of my orchids cant really tolerate it for long. A lso, whats the best way to start a "clean" clture from wild collected termtes? I know about secondary reproductives, but with a wild source, how am I to clean them up of any potentilly harmful bacteria/viruses/protazoa? Its not like I can culture them like fungi on antibacterial agar is it?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Isn't that a very common problem with feeding crickets, to anything, not just frogs?
> 
> So what's the sollution? Use plastic lants and feed them tofu? LOL
> 
> ...


Actually not really.. its a problem if your crickets are contaminated with cockroaches so you need to get them from a clean facility. I use crickets at work (and have done so for over 18 years for all but the smallest frogs with only a couple of instances where coccidia showed up on a fecal check. 

There is also a lot of hard documentation of this sort of stuff in the vet literature that many hobbyists miss... and a good bit of it doesn't support some of the stuff in the hobby like that folk tale about the crickets.... 


Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

as far as getting "clean starter cultures" carolina biological sells them and i have to believe that they offer animals that are known to be free of pathogens, all though i can not tell you for sure.

also while were on the topic...

im under the impression that termite cultures do NOT need a queen and they can reproduce from a colony of just workers. can anyone confirm or deny this?

im interested in starting to do this again....
i "cultured" termites years ago, by simply putting an affected piece of wood in the back yard, piling more wood on and keeping it moist with a hose. i'd like to not risk major property damage this time 

james


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Do you know of a published article where coccidia was found in termite's? 

Have you fed them to any of your animals with ill effects?

Just curious...

JP


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

James- termites can produce secondary reproductives fom workers. Workers seperated from their original colonies can become sexually reproductive to start new colonies. Just google secondary reproductives and youll find lots of good info


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Haha James,

What I do is find a colony in the woods and "plant" pieces of chain saw cut wood around the immediate area... It takes about a year (or so) before the pieces have TONS of bugs in them!

I've tried the wet cardboard method but it doesn't work that well for me... Some will get in it but the numbers that will get in a soaked log buried in the ground for a year!

JP


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

thank you. 

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> by thoroughly drying,whats the best method? some of my orchids cant really tolerate it for long. A lso, whats the best way to start a "clean" clture from wild collected termtes? I know about secondary reproductives, but with a wild source, how am I to clean them up of any potentilly harmful bacteria/viruses/protazoa? Its not like I can culture them like fungi on antibacterial agar is it?


If you look back up the thread.. I mentioned I wasn't addressing plants at that time but was sticking to items like leaf litter. 
Air drying with decent air circulation over a couple of weeks is usually overkill provided it doesn't get rewet. Once dry it can be stored in a container until needed. 

Most of the plants that you get from a nursery can be dealt with by simply quarantining the plant in a seperate container for at least 30-60 days at which time if you were say concerned about invertebrates, they could be treated with CO2... once or twice. 
But that is different from what I have been pointing out.. people make a lot of effort to knock out potential pests that are often transitory in the longer term set up of a terraria... 

With respect to the termites, you would need a sterile food source and set up and then simply take the same procedures outlined for setting up sterile colonies of other arthropods.. 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

By the way James... Pine works the best BY FAR!!! There are other species I find in other wood but the largest colonies of healthy looking bugs come from pine...

JP


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

so I have a lot of alder chips. Could I pressure cook them, stat a culture with them.then what? do you have a link to STERILE arthopod culture I could look at?
thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

james67 said:


> as
> im under the impression that termite cultures do NOT need a queen and they can reproduce from a colony of just workers. can anyone confirm or deny this?


It depends on the type of termite, you need one that does form secondary reproductives like subterranean termites (Reticulitermes ssp). Othere types of termites may need a actual queen. There also needs to be a threshold density for the secondary reproductives to be sufficient. 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

But to your knowledge termite's are not known to be a transmitter of coccidia or the like? I'm just trying to be thorough in my reserch... Possibly that could be a good experiment for someone to try?!

I personally used termite's for 8 years of breeding darts (mostly tincs) years ago, along with FF's, and other field swept insects without problems. 

I would like to know if someone has done that experiment and what they've found!!

JP


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Do you know of a published article where coccidia was found in termite's?
> 
> Have you fed them to any of your animals with ill effects?
> 
> ...


Other than the literature that points at it being a major pathogen of echidnas... and they get in in thier diet.... 

Many coccidians are not necessarily transmitted by the actual invertebrate (but they can as part of ingested gut contents) but by the other materials ingested along with the food item. This is why if you are going to become paranoid about coccidia, your cages need to be tight to prevent the engress and exit of invertebrates from the cage. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> But to your knowledge termite's are not known to be a transmitter of coccidia or the like? I'm just trying to be thorough in my reserch... Possibly that could be a good experiment for someone to try?!
> 
> I personally used termite's for 8 years of breeding darts (mostly tincs) years ago, along with FF's, and other field swept insects without problems.
> 
> ...


Grin.. without fecals and necropsies to show that there were actually no problems (in that the animals could be asymptomatic but infected)...

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

I was reading this the other day... It's a pretty good page...

Native Subterranean Termites, Reticulitermes spp.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> so I have a lot of alder chips. Could I pressure cook them, stat a culture with them.then what? do you have a link to STERILE arthopod culture I could look at?
> thanks


Try looking it up.. When I'm handling a number of questions, I don't necessarily have the time or energy to do the research for everyone... 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Would this be a good experiment to:

Take fecals before feeding a single termite

Feed the animal NOTHING but termite's (which is most likely not a good idea because of the high fat content)

Take fecals again and see what shows up... But that would only be for one group of one species of termite.

You would also have to have the animals in a totally sterile environment free from other microfauna that could accidently to be injested.

Would it work???

JP


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Hahaha... This is such an exciting and interesting hobby...

I think I see what you're trying to get at Ed... Why be so paranoid? Take some precautions but in the end the frogs will work it out. Be careful but have fun and try to create the best environment possible...

Right? 

JP


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snooknfrogs said:


> Hahaha... This is such an exciting and interesting hobby...
> 
> I think I see what you're trying to get at Ed... Why be so paranoid? Take some precautions but in the end the frogs will work it out. Be careful but have fun and try to create the best environment possible...
> 
> ...


Bingo.... I've been developing my opinions for the last 20 plus years based on a combination of experience balanced by the literature... and have significantly changed how I thought about a lot of this over that time... 

Ed


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## snooknfrogs (Sep 25, 2009)

Indeed... And I think I can speak for the collective when I say that we all appreciate your input, Ed!!

The experimentation part of the hobby is a blast. Trying new things that advance the hobby and or make for healthier animals is what it's all about!!

Who knows... In years to come we may be the last people charged with continuing the populations of animals that have vanished in the wild... (but that's another discussion totally )

JP


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