# How long do your ff cultures last?



## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

I'm wondering because my melanogaster cultures seem to dying out fairly quickly after the intial hatching of flies. The production falls off sharply, the flies that are hatching out are extremly small and the excelsior turns black at the bottom. 

What I'm currently using is about 1/4 cup of blackjungle's media mixed with a 50/50 ratio of water and apple cider vinegar. On top I pour a small amount of activated baker's yeast. 

Below is a month old culture that's pretty dead. Any suggestions?


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

After one month, the culture you must trash, lest you find the mites taking over.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

there are many different factors that can play a significant part in the life cycle of a culture. Generally mine get seeded on day 1 by day 4 or 5 I have significant maggot development in the culture. From 11-15 I will have ff that should be taken from the culture for feeding. From 16-30 I have heavy ff production. from 30-45 the culture is exhausted and dead. I put in each container 2/3 to 1 cup of finished media mix. I have had cultures last as long as 8 weeks.


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

David, your cultures use a full cup of media? I'm definately not seeing larva production that quickly. Is it possible I'm putting the flies in too early?

Also, I should mention that culture's been done at least a week.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2005)

I don't have much experience in rearing FF's, but have spent hours reading as much as I can. And so far so great!

If I put in about 1/2 to 3/4 inch deep in 32 oz cup, it is pretty much used up after a month, with two strong blooms of flies. I think if you used more it might last longer, but risk mold or mite problems. I think a month is normal life of a culture. 

My cultures don't develope the black , you mentioned , and the media is pretty much gone. From the 101 pages I have read about fly cultivation, I think the black might be mold, which can cut down on production, and spread to new cultures with the flies used from them. I also only use 1 part vinegar to 3 parts boiling water, 'cause I have read that to much vinegar will deplete production.

I'm sure there are some more experienced members on here that will correct me if I'm wrong though. 

After I mix everything w/ the boiling water, I let it cool about a half hour, and add about 50 freshly hatched flies, and a little yeast. this has produced more flies than my guys/gals can stuff in there guts, and feel I am getting the most i can out of my media.

I'd say get a fresh fly culture, cut down on the vinegar, boil everything you use to make the new cultures, and store them in a different location from your other ones. Then just see how they compare to the others. 

I wanted to add my post so I could ask you where you got your cups from? They look heavy duty, a lot thicker than the ones I have ran across. Do they have the lids with the cloth covered holes on top?


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I don't think the discoloration in the excelsior is a concern. When I use excelsior at the end of the life of a culture it is all usually very dark brown and rotting, which is one of the reasons I don't use excelsior anymore. I am of the personal belief the mites are more pronounced in cultures that are using excelsior as well. MITES=POOR CULTURE Below is a picture of one of my recent cultures I made on 12/1 and as you can see WoW. BUT again there is a lot of factors that go into a culture and there is some art to it. I would not concern yourself with how fast it is producing as much as when it is producing is the production nice and heavy. I will empty my cultures every other day when they are producing well and I will get hundreds of ff per dump. Yes I put in one cup of finished media. I mix mine all in a big tub and scoop out one cup per 32 oz container.

this is five days old.








as far as vinegar is concerned I use apple vinegar and have great success with it. I use a much higher percentage of vinegar in my mix, about 33% of the liquid and will probably be increasing it as I see more aggressive cultures for heavier use. The culture above was a test with a little more vinegar and so far I am very pleased but I need to see the whole life of the culture. I am always testing a practicing on my cultures and what works for someone else may not work for you...just take a couple ideas test them and make notes to track your progress. Good luck!


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

a couple more things I thought of; I usually put my FF in immediately but sometimes I don't put in the filler(excelsior, paper, coffee filters, that type of thing) till one week later. This forces the ff to focus on the media and they seem to lay eggs a little faster. I also tend to put a lot of FF into a new culture to get it started very aggressively. I believe this helps with the mold issue and in fact I NEVER get mold and I never use a mold inhibitor. I laughed the other day when I got a culture from someone else that uses a mold inhibitor and what did I find in the culture on the top was a nice white mold. As you can tell I am not big on the premixed media and especially mold inhibitors. IMO


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

I make my own media, and on average, I can have a culture producing right up until about the two month mark. As clayton said, the older the culture the more susceptible to mites, so if you do keep them for long periods of time, separate them from good cultures, or use mite shelving paper (does anyoneknow where I could buy this locally, like lowes or home depot maybe?) . I usually have a huge hatch at 15 days, then another a week later, and so on, but each hatch is generally smaller then the first, depending on how quickly I fed after the previous hatch out. 

Ed Parker

I don't use mold inhibitors, and have rarely had molding problems, a quick mix of vinegar is all it takes


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

Thanks for all the replies guys, lots of good info. Rad- I got the cups from Ed's flymeat. Unfortunately, I didn't get the right lids with ventilation (so I've just been poking my own holes) but they do sell those too. I suppose this could also be one of my problems.

David, I never see my melanogaster cultures produce that much - especially in the first few days. Do you use an equal part of liquid (water/vinegar) to the media? I like your suggestion to wait a few days before you add the filler. I have some fresh flies so I'm going to try some things and see what works. I've been thinking about starting to make my own media as I haven't had too much success with prepared recipes. I'll have to see what I can find on the forum.

Anyway, thanks for all the help everyone.


PS - Ed, I don't think the black in my cultures is mold as I always use vinegar. I guess it's just the excelsior rotting out. 

Jeff


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

"Mold inhibitor" is usually just propionic acid, or another dried acid salt. Vinegar, for all intents and purposes is mold inhibitor as well (acetic acid), just a different type.

My guess is that your dark media is caused by bacterial breakdown of the media . . . mine start to get that way around week 6-8. I have occasionally had cultures die off quickly due to a huge bacterial bloom early in the life of the culture (the smell is awful). The dark color of your excelsior looks like it may be contributing to a bacterial bloom.

One way of reducing likelihood of bacterial bloom is to microwave your cultures when setting up, or to use boiling water. You have to let the cultures cool down a bit before adding flies, so be sure to have the lid on during this time (stray flying ff's may invade!). 

If you are doing things properly, you should get production just like David is showing. What is "proper" does change a bit from person to person, but your melanogaster cultures should produce well for at least 4 weeks. I don't always have that many crawling on the sides of the container, but your media surface should honestly be moving with larvae. The media should be almost all used up by the time the culture has begun to crash.

I have always used distilled vinegar (50/50 with water), but may try the cider vinegar since I see everyone is having good luck with that. Maybe the vinegar smell isn't as pronounced in the cider vinegar. 

Those are just my experiences. All the best.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

Jeff,
I add 2 cups apple sauce, 2 cups Apple juice, and 2 cups Apple vinegar to my powder mix.


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

Homer, thanks for the suggestion. I just read that elsewhere on the board as well and am definately going to try either boiling or microwaving. 

David, you add all that to each culture? I may be wrong but 2 cups sauce, 2 cups juice and 2 cups vinegar seems like it would be a little soppy for only 1 cup of media, no?


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

OK here is the full story.

For 10 cultures – 32oz deli cups 
1 cup shifted powder sugar mixed with 
4 cups potato flakes. Then mix in 
3/4 cup of brewers yeast from GNC
2 tablespoons spirulina (optional)
Mix all dry goods thoroughly. 
I don’t store but make new batch each time. 
To the dry mix above add: 
2 cups apple vinegar 
2 cups apple sauce 
2 cups of Apple Juice 
Mix thoroughly with a hand mixer(important)


After mixing distribute a 2/3 cup of your mix to each of the containers where you are raising D. melanogaster for D. hydei you can expect a longer pupate period(about double) and therefore I would recommend only using 1/2 cup per container. Flatten the media down with a spoon or another 32oz container. Sprinkle about 50-100 (approx.) grains of Red Star Quick Rise Yeast on top, and smooth in with a spoon keeping the yeast on the top of the media. At this point you can either put in your filler or leave this out for about a week. I am currently using filter material but Parchment Paper folded accordion style comes highly recommended. Add a generous amount of FF and seal with cover. I use Ed’s Fly Meats covers with round sponges for ventilation, and with this set up I do not have to respray during the life of the culture. You must be careful not to over mist when setting up the culture, too much water is worse than too little(you can always spray later if needed). If you prefer using a coffee filter for ventilation this has some pluses under the right conditions but you will probably be forced to spray occasionally in order to have higher yields, I just don’t like the extra work and FF escapes during spraying. You know when the culture is drying out by when the maggots don’t travel far from the media. You want your maggots to go to the top of the filler material and all the way up the sides of the container. This will give you higher yields longer but again don’t over mist or this will make your media soupy and/or crash your culture because of maggot rot. I also use throw away plastic deli cups. If you are having problems with mites taking over or if you are having issues with moisture as the culture ages than only put 1/2 or 3/4 cup of mix in each container and shorten the cycle. I don’t use mold inhibitor and have never had a problem but I do put a generous amount of FF so that they aggressively consume the top not allowing mold to develop. I also do not heat, boil, or warm the liquid for the mix and therefore do not need to have a cool down period. You will want to keep your FF cultures at about 78-80 degrees for optimum yields. I keep mine by my hot water heater, this isn’t perfect but close. The more discriminating will setup a closet or cabinet that can be monitored and controlled. As far as lighting is concerned I haven’t seen much of an impact but low light seems best. I have kept them in the complete dark and left them in bright light. Generally now I just keep them somewhere in the middle and whatever is convenient to me. Under no circumstances should you use FF from two different lines of cultures, this can cause cultures to have FF that can fly and then you may be forced to start all over. I generally like to take a culture that is just stuffed with FF and use that one culture’s FF for about 4 new cultures. You know you have really done a great job on the culture when at the end of the life of that culture it is just caked with maggot shells. When feeding the FF direct and not dusting I just remove the lid and lightly tap the side of the culture to knock down the FFs. I find that after a period of time the PDF no longer fears me tapping the container but it actually means meal time and they come running. With thumbnails I generally like to deposit my food low because the FF will travel up toward the light and this seems to give an even dispersion prohibiting only a few select frogs from grabbing all the food. On the other hand if you are feeding your larger frogs and have a number in the same tank if is best to land the FF into the plants, again so that you have all your frogs being able to get at a good supply and reduce stress and fighting. If you are only talking about a pair of frogs per tank it doesn’t matter much. I also will at time leave a culture in the tank with my frogs if I see undue stress or feeding concerns, but this I am learning has some concerns and you should never use a culture for this that is old or smelly, it has the potential of causing health issues. The PDF will go in the culture and snap up the maggots and get real plumpy. I recommend using a notebook and jot down the changes you make and their effects and share them with the group. Use at your own risk, it works for me and is half the fun of having PDF(not really).

Again Good Luck!
_________________

David Matychuk


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

David's instructions are pretty thorough, and it pretty closely reflects my experiences.

Just for a bit of differing method, my culture/media is this:

Dry Mix ratio:
8 cups potato flakes
1 cup powdered sugar
1 cup brewer's yeast
2-4 oz paprika (for color enhancement)

Wet Mix
1 part H20
1 part Distilled White Vinegar (the mold inhibitor)

I mix up large amounts of the dry mix and place in tupperware container for easy access/storage. I keep a 1/3 cup measuring scoop in the container. When I want to make new cultures, I boil some RO water.

While the kettle is warming or the Pyrex container of water in the microwave is heating, I take out my new 32 oz. containers and put 1/3 cup of the dry mix in the bottom of each.

When the water is hot/boiled, I mix it 50/50 with distilled white vinegar. In each culture, I put 3/4 cup of the wet mix, and stir with a spoon to get equal wetting. Once all the cultures are done, I add a pinch of baker's yeast, and put the tops on.

I then go get my flies and dust them (this allows the media to cool a little), and I get out my coffee filters (4-6 per cup, folded in half twice). I put the coffee filters in the cups, add the flies, and date the culture (and add M for melanogaster, H for hydei).

It's pretty fast and painless. I have tried several other recipes involving oatmeal, fruit, fruit juices, etc. Some work a little better than this media, but not that much better. For the difference in price and difficulty in setting up cultures, the method I currently use beats any additional production I might get from other methods. But that's just what works for me.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Homer - do you dust the flies with paprika as well - or do you believe the paprika in the media alone is sufficient? Have you done any side-by-side comparisons?


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Dusting is probably more effective with less paprika, but I haven't tried it. My flies are visibly more amber in color in the paprika media, and the casings from the pupae are certainly very amber in color. I know my Brazil cobalts have kept a nice orange cap with the paprika medium.

I have a relatively small house, so the fewer loose containers running around, the better.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

What David said!

Actually great discussion from all!!!

I too have found better production if I keep the cx more humid and warmer (80F)....I currently start them in a orchidarium that I wasnt using and after they fill with maggots I take them out and just keep near the frog tanks.

I know that Ed's Fly meat adds spirulina to their dry media to make a pleasant green color that fades to cream as the maggots turn the top layer to mush...but I will try the paprika experiment myself as well. Thanks for the tips!

I love the parchment paper folded accordian style...much better for me than coffee filters...as an alternative I buy brown paper lunch bags. I can get 100 count for 2 bucks at a local "dollar" type store, and cut it in 3rds, fold accordian style and you get 300 cups worth for 2 bucks..! and it tends to absorb H20 excess better than parchment. Use parchment if your cx tend to be dry though.

Best of luck!
Shawn


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I also recently tried the parchment idea, and so far I really like it. However, the hydei still eat through it. I have tried everything with them (except excelsior as I hate the stuff) and have yet found something they won't demolish. The best yields seem to be when I place a toilet paper roll in the center of the culture with a coffee filter inside and 4 folded coffee filters surrounding it. However, by the time I go to feed off the flies, they have broken everything down.


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## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

Something that might explain why both hot water and hot "incubation" temps help is that the adult flies eat yeast, and yeast is an organism whose production literally TRIPLES from 70 to 80 degrees F. This also scares me away from using full on boiling water because yeast dies at about 120 F, and boiling water is way above that.

-Solly


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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

I just wanted to say thanks for all of the replies. David, that must have taken quite awhile to type out. As Homer said, it was very thorough. I appreciate it. Everyone's bringing up some great information in this thread. It will definately help as I work on improving my cultures. I'll be sure to let you all know of my results. Thanks again guys. 

Jeff


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I should have added that this mix has great results with D. melanogaster. As far as D. hydei is concerned i have much less experience with them and it has acceptable results but with hydei you have a much longer pupate period(about double) and this has an adverse effect on the media so I would recommend using only about 1/2 cup of finished media per container.

I will be editing and adding links and pictures for products and information in my above post so that someone can see in one spot where and how to get everything needed that I use at least. I would encourage other experienced in this area to do the same so that once for all we have a post that is the definitive for all issues surrounding FF cultures.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I haven't perused this thread, so if this has been said my apoligies. 

One thing to note, as I had problems for months with crappy cultures, is to use yeast that isn't too old. I had been using the same packet(s) of yeast for the better part of 2 years, losing it, finding it, using it, losing it, buying more, losing it. You get the idea. I had no clue what was what. Then I decided to test to see if the yeast I still had was good. Some luke warm water and about ten minutes later and a big fat nothing. So I bought new yeast and presto, all my cultures are going great. After reading the side of a jar of Fleishmann's Yeast, it says that once opened keep refrigerated. So my open packet is in the frig and I always test to see if it's good and use the risen yeast in my cultures.



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## digitalflipkick (Sep 13, 2004)

Valuable info defaced. That might be one of my problems as I've been using the same packet of bakers yeast for over a year. 

I was also wondering how many flies everyone leaves IN the cultures when feeding too keep the culture going. I think I may be emptying them out a little too much. Any thoughts?

Jeff


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

This is a little off topic, but how do make the larvae exit the medium before pupating. Several seem to pupate in the medium and leave a big mess, making it harder for the next generation to feed.

Luke


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## jsagcincy (May 2, 2005)

dmatychuk said:


> OK here is the full story.
> 
> For 8 cultures – 32oz deli cups
> 1 cup shifted powder sugar mixed with
> ...


Just for a follow-up... I've been using David's recipe for about a month now and I have more fly production than ever. My cultures are exploding. Works great with both mels and hydei. If anyone is looking to try a new recipe I highly recommend this. 

Thanks for sharing David.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I use the power mix, and get about three weeks of thick production...I've got mites too though :x


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

> This is a little off topic, but how do make the larvae exit the medium before pupating. Several seem to pupate in the medium and leave a big mess, making it harder for the next generation to feed.


Luke,
My experience has been that this is an indicator that your media is too dry. If it is too dry the maggots don't travel as far up and certainly not to the top. If you get the right moisture level continually in the culture they will then pupate all over and you will get higher yields. I HIGHLY recommend Eds tops with the sponges. This has kept the exact moisture that I have needed and raised my production with the media I am using. good luck.

P.S. I should note that this doesn't mean you should just add more liquid, it is more of ventilation problem than a liquid problem. Even with very wet media if your ventilation is too much the maggots will stay down where it is wetter....not good.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

> I use the power mix, and get about three weeks of thick production...I've got mites too though


Brian,
Here is a trick I learned for getting rid or at least reducing mite problems. For a couple of cycles just put the FF in with the media, no filler material at all. Leave it that way for about a week. Then dump all the adults out and add your filler material. When you make your next culture use one of these new cultures as it does its first bloom of FF. If you do this for 2 or 3 cycles. you will see a tremendous decrease in mites and I recommend not using excelsior for awhile as well, mites seem to thrive better in excelsior. You also can have a constant problem with mites if your are using older cultures to get your stock for the new cultures.

P.S. I dont use anything to control mites and I dont have a problem with them at all.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I have made some small adjustments to the amounts.


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## jsagcincy (May 2, 2005)

I found that mine ran just a little on the dry side so I added a little more liquid. This is probably due more to the dry winter air than the recipe. Also, I substituted V8 Splash for the apple juice and added paprika. I don't think it increases production but I was experimenting to get some more beta carotene in the mix. 

As for mites, I keep my cultures stacked in large sterilite containers with just a small amount of water in the bottom. I haven't had mite problems for awhile and it's also a place to attract some of the stray FF's. 

Jeff


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip " crappy cultures, is to use yeast that isn't too old. I had been using the same packet(s) of yeast for the better part of 2 years, losing it, finding it, using it, losing it, buying more, losing it. You get the idea. I had no clue what was what. Then I decided to test to see if the yeast I still had was good. Some luke warm water and about ten minutes later and a big fat nothing"


One of the things that occurs is that the ffs actually also carry yeast on thier body which is introduced into the new culture. If your culture conditions are consistant then the yeast should adapt to the culture conditions and maximize its growth at those temperatures and conditions(forming a strain). This is also why people can start cultures without the addition of the live yeast. 

Ed


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