# Microspot/blue bronze



## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

I am trying to decide if I want to get the microspot and blue bronze auratus as part of my dart order. Are these two just a variation of the green/bronze or a completely different morph. I read that the microspot are line-bred for the patterns? If they are being imported, how were they line-bred. And if bred they dont breed micro-spot true sometimes? The same questions apply for blue/bronze. Help Please


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

My understanding is that they are seperate morphs. I have no idea about the microspot but i havent ever heard of them being line bred. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in. They are both good looking frogs though. I have heard that the blue/bronze and blue/black are some of the shyest auratus. With auratus being a reclusive species in the first place it could be something to think about.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

I had a blue and black I find they like to hunt under my plants while the tincs I have now hunt on the leaves up the wall literally everywhere all while I'm close up watching. Yeah I'm trying to narrow my choices down


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Usually microspot is considered just a variation of the panama farm raised green and bronze that were imported from 2002-2004. Some individuals have many small spots and were selected out and line bred, however the trait does not breed true. The "morph" is still being passed around the hobby. At this point it shouldn't be attempted to line breed for the microspot trait. But if a frog is carrying the name "microspot", appreciate it for what it is... One of the big/bold/beautiful green and bronze frogs that entered the hobby.

Pretty much the same story with the blue/bronze...
The 2002-2004 farm raised imports had no collection data, no site data, and no morph data. So upon arrival they are separated by appearances. One group of these frogs became 'super blue' and still others became 'blue/bronze.' These frogs don't breed true either, creating green/turquoise/blue frogs. But again..they are great frogs to keep.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Ok so your saying that the Microspot, turquoise, blue bronze, green bronze all are basically the same morph. With breeding blues to their own makes the color more likely to show the same?


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

stevendart14 said:


> With breeding blues to their own makes the color more likely to show the same?


That is called line breeding for a trait.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

stevendart14 said:


> Ok so your saying that the Microspot, turquoise, blue bronze, green bronze all are basically the same morph. With breeding blues to their own makes the color more likely to show the same?


Add super blue to that list too.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

that really sucks, extremely bad now I'm conflicted on whether I want one nice size group of of one "variation" or two trios. 

I hoped they were more like the tincs with those specific false morphs, hey they still look cool the fact that they all seemed so similar threw me for a loop makes sense


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Don't let any of this deter you from keeping these great frogs. They are both very beautiful and perhaps are two of e most bold auratus morphs.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Well hey, i learned something new today. Thanks everyone for chiming in.


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## dendrobates (May 11, 2009)

Micro spot, green & bronze, teel & bronze, el cope might all be the same morph but super blue is definitely a seperate morph.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

dendrobates said:


> Micro spot, green & bronze, teel & bronze, el cope might all be the same morph but super blue is definitely a seperate morph.


This kinda contradicts that statement about super blues. Can you elaborate on this?



frograck said:


> Usually microspot is considered just a variation of the panama farm raised green and bronze that were imported from 2002-2004. Some individuals have many small spots and were selected out and line bred, however the trait does not breed true. The "morph" is still being passed around the hobby. At this point it shouldn't be attempted to line breed for the microspot trait. But if a frog is carrying the name "microspot", appreciate it for what it is... One of the big/bold/beautiful green and bronze frogs that entered the hobby.
> 
> Pretty much the same story with the blue/bronze...
> The 2002-2004 farm raised imports had no collection data, no site data, and no morph data. So upon arrival they are separated by appearances. One group of these frogs became 'super blue' and still others became 'blue/bronze.' These frogs don't breed true either, creating green/turquoise/blue frogs. But again..they are great frogs to keep.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

frograck said:


> Don't let any of this deter you from keeping these great frogs. They are both very beautiful and perhaps are two of e most bold auratus morphs.


Im still very much interested in getting some, quick question. If I get a group of el cope is there a chance they could potenitally have offspring that "look" like some of the other morphs ie super blue,different bronzes(green, blue).


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Reef_Haven said:


> This kinda contradicts that statement about super blues. Can you elaborate on this?


I second this, I have seen super blues that ill say breed more true; if that makes sense. It seems there are different super blues but the one I would say looks diffenent have a almost sky blue color with silverish bronze look and can be found the the super blue thread


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

I have spoken with Marcus at SNDF about the super blues before.

He has stated that out of a large group they selected nicely colored individuals and after breeding them together dubbed them "super blue". Essentially they went through the same selection process as microspot blue bronze etc.. and do not represent an actual local.

As far as the el copes although there is some variation you will not find it to such extremes as some of the selectively bred panamanian imports. You may see some variation but it is all sort of relative. (At what point do you consider a frog more blue then green sort of thing)


Also of note is that although El Cope is a green/blue and bronze auratus not all green/blue and bronze auratus are El cope. El cope should not be mixed with other bronze auratus as it is a site specific local. There are several populations throughout panama producing these bronze auratus so unless it was labeled as El cope there is no way of knowing if it is for sure El cope and should be referred to based on what the seller said. (Green/Blue bronze, microspot, etc).

Justin


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Steven, 
Sorry, I'm still fairly new to the hobby myself, so I'm not much help giving the history of morphs.
On page 6 of this thread, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/88394-kitcolebays-thread.html, I have pics posted of the microspots and camo I received from Understory last month. I feel that the microspots do have a similar appearance to some other morphs since they don't have the actual polka-dot look to them. I also have blue/blacks and costa rican auratus(they also have pics earlier in that thread). I definitely feel that they, along with the camos, have a very distinct look to them. Very beautiful frogs. So far with my experience, they are *very* shy in comparison to tincs and leucs. Hope this helps some.

-Chris


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

dendrobates said:


> Micro spot, green & bronze, teel & bronze, el cope might all be the same morph but super blue is definitely a seperate morph.


On what basis are you stating that super blues are a separate morph?


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

stevendart14 said:


> I second this, I have seen super blues that ill say breed more true; if that makes sense. It seems there are different super blues but the one I would say looks diffenent have a almost sky blue color with silverish bronze look and can be found the the super blue thread


Any degree of 'breeding true' is due to selectively line breeding for the trait. We cannot make judgements about auratus morphs based n appearances because they display such great Variability. 

This coming from a huge fan of 'super blue' auratus. I keep and breed several pairs. I very much like the frogs and think they deserve to be maintained responsibly in the hobby. They shouldn't be considered less valuable just because of their fuzzy origins. 

But they simply represent a line of frogs that were selected from the mish-mash of 'panama farm raised' imports during 2002-2004. 'Super blues' in particular represent animals that Marcus of simply natural dart frogs obtained and paired together with other blue/bronze frogs... As jdart16 pointed out already.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Super blue is just a line bred trait from the same import group as the others mentioned.

Highland bronze is a separate morph... not to be co mingled in with the rest


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

jdart16 said:


> I have spoken with Marcus at SNDF about the super blues before.
> 
> He has stated that out of a large group they selected nicely colored individuals and after breeding them together dubbed them "super blue". Essentially they went through the same selection process as microspot blue bronze etc.. and do not represent an actual local.
> 
> ...


Thanks justin thats exactly what I needed to know, so ill go with el cope. Now I am obsessed with the super blue but due to my other dart projects ill wait on them. Hey if u cant decide between blue or green go turquoise


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

kitcolebay said:


> Steven,
> Sorry, I'm still fairly new to the hobby myself, so I'm not much help giving the history of morphs.
> On page 6 of this thread, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/88394-kitcolebays-thread.html, I have pics posted of the microspots and camo I received from Understory last month. I feel that the microspots do have a similar appearance to some other morphs since they don't have the actual polka-dot look to them. I also have blue/blacks and costa rican auratus(they also have pics earlier in that thread). I definitely feel that they, along with the camos, have a very distinct look to them. Very beautiful frogs. So far with my experience, they are *very* shy in comparison to tincs and leucs. Hope this helps some.
> 
> -Chris


Those CAMO woah they look crazy, they arent the same as campana(brown) right?
....I see they are a different morph so chris get those babies breeding I defiantly would grab a few. Quick auratus question. Are auratus seperated by locale/morphs.(im talking bronzed frogs aside). Like the blue and black, green and black, camo, highland, etc..Within tincs though they all are generally similar but have distinct differences at times other than colors. Is the auratus something similar. Or are they more similar to leucs, such as banded, orange etc..


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Auratus locals often belong to 2 groups. Generally the older lines were designated by phenotype or region. These include the following but are not limited to
-Various Bronze
-Blue and Black
-Campana
-Green and Black (Panamanian, Costa Rican, Nicaraguan)

Recently newer morphs have come with some local data or more than what has been given in the past and have names more like those of the tinces.
-Capira
-El Cope (Although they were brought into the country in the 90's)
-Mebalo

So auratus are a hybrid between generalized names and some groups of frogs with some actual site data.

One issue with with classifying auratus imports on a region such as campana is that that area represents numerous diverse populations that in some cases should not be lumped together. But unfortunately such information is usually not available.

The same problem exists with the blue and black auratus. Several populations of such "blue and black" exist with different hues of blue that can range from deep to a very light color. Also some populations of auratus are known to contain blue green and intermediate phenotypes all within one population. Despite this all blue and black auratus have been lumped into one captive breeding population and are not separated. 

Hope that helped, Justin


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

stevendart14 said:


> Im still very much interested in getting some, quick question. If I get a group of el cope is there a chance they could potenitally have offspring that "look" like some of the other morphs ie super blue,different bronzes(green, blue).


El cope do breed true. No you won't get drastically different looking offspring from true el cope frogs. The range in phenotype of el cope auratus would consist of various shades/hues of turquoise as well as slight pattern variation.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Okay, everyday i get on this thread my mind is flipping over and over. How the auratus have changed in this hobby since 05. What happened with auratus, theres a ton of tincs I wouldve thought it wouldve been harder to seperate them into morphs. But as it seems there may be countless mini populations of different morphs that could breed true, throw random colors. And to think I thought auratus would have been a easy subspecies to decide which morphs I want from them. I wanted to primarly deal with tincs, seen more than a few that I didnt like so thought hey might as well pick up some of my first frogs(auratus). I wanted all the different morphs(auratus) but as it appears there seems to be limitless lol


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

At the root of the confusion is that the wild populations are not even defined, and many populations contain incredible variation, and different populations that are separate from each other in the wild can still look alike. 

For example... There are many different looking auratus from the campana/capira region of panama. Over the past two decades they have been imported numerous times but never with actual collection/location data. Within those regions there are some populations that pretty much look alike but don't in fact interbreed (they are truly separate populations) and then there are populations that have so much variation that when they. Get imported, people assume they represent several different morphs and so separate them based on appearance, when in fact they should be bred together because they come from the same population.

However, we almost never know one way or another what the imports actually are. At least not specifics.

Add to all this that auratus are regarded as an inferior/cheap/beginner species and so are under appreciated in the hobby so their isn't the demand to have accurate data. And then the frogs get sold by silly names like "green and black". And things just get confused.

Imagine if all Tinc's were only ever referred to as "blue and yellow tinc" or "black and yellow tinc" and no further distinction in morphs was made.... That is what things are like with auratus a lot of the time!

The best we can do is the best we can do. These amazing frogs should be responsibly be kept and maintained so that morphs are not lost in the hobby. Try your hardest to find out the lineage of any auratus you buy and then keep track of that information.... And if all you can know is "they are green and black auratus of unknown origin" then call it like it is... Don't try to name the morph if you don't know for sure.


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

Nicely put that cleared up a good 95 percent of the confusion. Had to laugh at this line " names like green and black". I agree their status in the hobby play a big role but now we have to put a spin to it. Dont name them el capo or campana thats tinc like, keep it auratus style yellow red black legs . All jokes aside, ive decided for my future auratus purchases ima keep it site specific. Unless someone local have those super blues. Its a shame, the auratus couldve been the next tinc. I know their "sometimes" shyness also played a part


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

My green and bronze were ninja shy....poof! vanished


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

-Capira
-El Cope (Although they were brought into the country in the 90's)
-Mebalo

So auratus are a hybrid between generalized names and some groups of frogs with some actual site data.

One issue with with classifying auratus imports on a region such as campana is that that area represents numerous diverse populations that in some cases should not be lumped together. But unfortunately such information is usually not available.

Hey jdart, seen one of ur ads, I'm also interested in site specific frogs for my collection. When ever you have any auratus shoot me a pm. In total how many different locale auratus do you think there are. In regards to the green/black, do you keep the seperate locale's ie costa rica/panamanin..etc Is there enough differences to easily distinguish one of these locales from the other....
Ive decided not to get certain tincs(dont like look or too close to what I have now)
SN/ I'm also interested in pygmies as well


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

stevendart14 said:


> In total how many different locale auratus do you think there are. In regards to the green/black, do you keep the seperate locale's ie costa rica/panamanin..etc Is there enough differences to easily distinguish one of these locales from the other....


Here is a good morph guide to get you started.

Dendrobates.org - Dendrobates auratus


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

stevendart14 said:


> -Capira
> -El Cope (Although they were brought into the country in the 90's)
> -Mebalo
> 
> ...


For the most part, no. Auratus in the hobby are not necessarily hybrids between known locality animals and locality specific animals. However both do exist in the hobby. It is the largely accepted consensus in the dart frog hobby to avoid creating any form of hybrid. For example... There have been green and black Costa Rican frogs in the hobby for almost 3 decades. We know they were imported from Costa Rica so we can accuratley call them 'costa Rican auratus.' And very recently, understory enterprises has been importing what are called "C.R.A.R.C. Auratus" which come from the Costa Rican amphibian research center and have specific locale data unique to the crarc. However, the old Costa Ricans and these new site specific crarc Costa Ricans should not be mixed. Same situation for yellow truncatus and the new Nilo truncatus.

I would propose the same mentality be applied to all auratus morphs based on import date. Some folks are practicing this, but for the most part it is too late, the damage has been done. For example, you have some F3 'campana auartus.' There have been dozens of auartus imports where animals from the campana region have been imported. However, as discussed, we know nothing about what wild populations they actually represent. So you do your best to follow lineage and you discover that your campana auratus originated from imports in 2002 (or any of the many other import years.) you then refer to your animals as '02 campana auratus) and you don't mix them with campana auratus that were imported in other years. But this might be overly/unnecessarily cautious and is asking a lot. We just need to accept the reality that most auratus in the hobby are great frogs, but we can't claim with any certainty where exactly they come from. 

No auratus morph should/can be positively identified by appearances. So if you buy a green and black auratus and you want to know if it is a Costa Rican auratus, a Nicaraguan auratus, a Panamanian auratus etc... You cannot decifer that information by looking at your specimens and comparing them to a pictorial or descriptive morph guide. The only way to keep track of morphs with any degree of certainty is to talk to who you bought them from (assuming they are trustworthy and actually kept track of thier animals lineage.) 

For a comprehensive primer on this subject, please read Frank's article about auratus morphs in Leaf Litter Magazine Vol. 3 Issue 1.
Tree Walkers International | HP MagCloud


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## stevendart14 (Feb 21, 2005)

No auratus morph should/can be positively identified by appearances. So if you buy a green and black auratus and you want to know if it is a Costa Rican auratus, a Nicaraguan auratus, a Panamanian auratus etc... You cannot decifer that information by looking at your specimens and comparing them to a pictorial or descriptive morph guide. The only way to keep track of morphs with any degree of certainty is to talk to who you bought them from (assuming they are trustworthy and actually kept track of thier animals lineage.) 

... (I didnt mean keep them separately I know thats a no no)..Yeah definitely will do, I am a sucker for fancy locale names tho but import year is another must know(or if can know) Well I guess auratus are more simple then they seem, ill just keep them on a smaller scale. Now it seems there may be more auratus morphs than tincs, thats too many frogs for me lol. One auratus morph easily can have over 6 different uhh "lines" inwhich to separate and not interbreed. Though I may not have too but I would want to, got a lil nerd ocd thing. Ill gather as much info about them as I can and like I do the tincs pick the ones I like.


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