# Is my frog sick?



## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

My frog is a juvenile dendrobates tinctorious, the Alalapadu Cobalt morph, and I purchased them off of Josh's frogs about ten days ago. A few days ago I noticed they were opening and closing their mouth constantly, and it appears that their neck is bloated? I don't think they're calling because they are only a few months old.


They don't appear to be sick in any other way. I have seen them eating and they are not acting especially lethargic or anything, and their tank mates are also fine. They haven't been fighting or anything. The humidity is usually from 70% - 95% and I am using a front opening terrarium that is 18 x 18 x 24. The lighting is an aquarium LED and I have not recorded any temps over 75 F. I've been providing melanogaster flies and every other feeding I've dusted them with Fluker's Reptile Vitamin.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pics of the entire viv would help us troubleshoot. 

What are the tankmates (species, number, age, where did you get them)?

I'd recommend using Repashy Calcium Plus as an every-feeding dust; the vitamin profile on the Flukers doesn't line up with what froggers usually provide. I don't think this is responsible for what you're describing, though.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I would contact the vendor immediately. If they are having a problem with the same group they know they do.

What you describe is the odd little anuran gesture that signals inflammation. That can mean an infection, ie; sick. It can also be a sign of immersion injury but i think it would be less likely unless you have a moving water feature. 

You describe it not being over 75 f . It shouldnt be under that either if they are having problems.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Joshes frogs operate like honest people. 

It is extremely hard to control the future impacts of all the animals that go out.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I always tried to be 'present' and mindful when misting little dendrobates and mantella froglets. As immersion injury is a set up for infections and also a mechanical hazard in itself. This is also true for other guys. I had a large group of Jacksons chameleons from my breeding pair, burly little football players w no mortalities. When placed in homes there were reports of sudden deaths after heavy misting in attempts to attain RH levels read on internet care sheets and recommendations. I am convinced many reptiles and amphibians are able to detect shifts in barometric pressure, and other nuances before heavy rains and that they instinctively seek refuge as a survival mechanism per their vulnerability.

I hope no one minds i share these tangetial thoughts.

And yes agree w Soc on counts, i would also be curious of cover and misting means, duration and vigor. It may be of no relevance, but maybe not. Its all important if reported as accurately as possible, even if it serves as a just a piece of the in the collective reef of observation in our charges. Please touch base and all hopes for a resolve in some positive.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Here is a picture of the vivarium. I use a pump sprayer twice a day, and I have a fogger set to run for five minutes every hour. I've checked an rechecked to make sure no adhesive used in s securing the fogger is in the tank. Right now the frog is with two other juvenile tank mates, all a few months old. My plan was to wait until they were old enough to sex and then separate them as needed.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Some thoughts:

That top layer of sphagnum shouldn't be there. It is too wet; leaf litter over ABG is a very good basic substrate. 

A fogger is not recommended.

The plywood wall on the left: is that a cold (exterior, or unheated room) wall? Relatedly, you say the high temp is 75F; what is the lowest temp?

What is the ventilation like?

Much, much more cover and climbing opportunities -- plants, branches, cork rounds -- would be very good. There isn't anywhere to hide in there that isn't wet. Darts are fairly to strongly arboreal, too.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Some thoughts:
> 
> That top layer of sphagnum shouldn't be there. It is too wet; leaf litter over ABG is a very good basic substrate.
> 
> ...


Okay. I was told sphagnum moss was required so I was using it. I will swap to something else other than the fogger, but why are they not recommended? The left is a visual barrier: it's just a sheet of plexiglass that I got along with a few others to fit onto my vivarium. There is top and front ventilation. The temp doesn't drop below 70F for the most part, it has rarely been at 69F. 

I was told that the dendrobates I was buying would be less arboreal so they didn't need as much climbing stuff. I am really sorry. I tried to do a lot of research before buying my frogs, I didn't want to just get them on a lark and I wanted to provide as best I could but it sounds like you're telling me everything I found out is like, the opposite of what I should be doing


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Please do search here to confirm what I (and anyone, especially a business that is trying to sell you something) am saying. Pay attention to the reasons people give for their claims. The reasons you'll find here for not using that layer of sphagnum are: the frogs can't get to any drier substrate when they need to, and it rots the leaf litter prematurely, and it can rot plant stems from too much moisture.

The fogger (1) isn't necessary, and (2) saturates the air with liquid water that settles out on all surfaces, including the frogs who need to be able to regulate their exposure to water. The misting adds water to the viv, and adjusting ventilation maintains humidity; nothing else is necessary.

Tincs may be less arboreal, but that just means (if it is true at all, which I don't think it is) that they only climb a a handful of feet rather than a handful of meters up, and that they spend relatively more time on the ground than a species that hardly comes down. They really do need the extra traversable surface area provided by climbing opportunities, but since this is easy to provide (more branches/ramps/ledges), no big deal. 

Again, please confirm everything you hear (about everything, not just animal care), and if I (or anyone) is incorrect, say so, or ask for reasons or other clarification.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Please do search here to confirm what I (and anyone, especially a business that is trying to sell you something) am saying. Pay attention to the reasons people give for their claims. The reasons you'll find here for not using that layer of sphagnum are: the frogs can't get to any drier substrate when they need to, and it rots the leaf litter prematurely, and it can rot plant stems from too much moisture.
> 
> The fogger (1) isn't necessary, and (2) saturates the air with liquid water that settles out on all surfaces, including the frogs who need to be able to regulate their exposure to water. The misting adds water to the viv, and adjusting ventilation maintains humidity; nothing else is necessary.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for all the help. I'm going to do what I can in the short term by adding more branches and leaf litter and removing the moss, but next month I'm going to build a much more robust terrarium for my frogs to be sure using this new information. Thanks so much for all the help.


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## kennyb123 (Oct 20, 2019)

Kmc said:


> As immersion injury is a set up for infections and also a mechanical hazard in itself.


Would you be able to elaborate on immersion injuries a little? I hand spray and want to make sure I’m not overlooking something obvious. I searched “immersion injury” but nothing relevant came up. Thanks!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its a medical/veterinary term for water being aspirated by unavoidable means to the extent of interfering with pulmonary function.

Personally i avoid spraying tiny specimens directly or too heavily.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

kennyb123 said:


> I searched “immersion injury” but nothing relevant came up


Try searching 'submersion injury' -- you'll find what you're looking for.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If you search for "dart frog immersion injury" you might not find information.

Just as if you look up "Taiwan Beauty Snake arterial occlusion" , same.

It depends if the vet or academic party wrote a paper on a case.

No need for extreme precautions just common sense. It is very, Very common new owner behavior to over lavish in applying humidity.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I may be getting a little old. Thanks soc.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

So with all that out of the way, if my frog has a submersion injury what can I do to help it recover?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I think it would be good manually mist for now, if you can. Better lightly, briefly. Try to avoid temperature drops and stressors. Put feeding stations in the environment to allow easier monitor of feeding, as well as making it easy for him to see and zip as many flies as possible. Energy expense for feeding and reposing in cover. 

Sometimes water aspirated can be absorbed. If the frog is warm and nourished he may not become more ill and could recover. Growth and development can be a positive flip side to being a little neo.

Its *duration* of unescapable drench that can cause problem in a small environment without easily accessed cavernous cover or foliage harbor.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If it was my frog, I would sink a wide extremely shallow lid or exo terra 'feeding dish' ( the "water" dish is different, too deep.) with a few flat pebbles in an ergonomic strategy along the interior edge and let the environment dry off a little.

But this requires some frequent care and observance. But I enjoy micromanaging animals that have come under my care by people who are anxious or desire to relinquish the trouble. There have been many.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Update: I removed the moss and added more places to hide, and reduced the misting and turned off the fogger. I'm also keeping the tank around 75F. How long should I wait to see if the frog recovers before I do something more serious? 
The frog's activity is normal enough: I have only had them for a week so they are all still skittish about moving around the tank, but I see them on occasion hunting for food. I am just worried because they always look like they are choking and I do not want them to suffer unnecessarily.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

I feel like a bad person, I've only had this frog for a week and it's sick from something I had no idea could happen. I know better for the future now but I feel absolutely devastated


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

I moved the frog to a quarantine tank so I can look after it better and move it out of the wet environment. It has food and shelter and a branch but they look swollen


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Moving around is good.

Do you actually see him catch and eat? Thats very important. 

Get some rapashy vit A plus and calcium plus.

Baby frogs develop deficiencies quickly. Not to give you more to worry about just a reminder that its important.

You could connect with an arav vet in your area. I am always a little conflicted though balancing risk benefit of transfer and travel with corrective husbandry that is working.

Youre doing great. You are a fine person. Shake that off.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Ok so i just saw that you moved him.
He does look a little swollen.
His carriage is good. Note that he eat and catches the flies without struggle.

Cut or pinch out patch of paper towel w stool and save in fridge in closed zip lock. Save all of them unless retrieving causes too much disturbance in the set up.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Kmc said:


> Moving around is good.
> 
> Do you actually see him catch and eat? Thats very important.
> 
> ...


I'm a high risk for COVID and my area is seeing a large spike in cases, so I can't really do a vet, save for maybe a telecom appointment. 

Yes, I have seen them catch and eat flies. They're still a bit timid so they don't pig out (not even the healthy frogs do currently) 

I have been using a new amphibian specific vitamin for them


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sometimes the direction to go is helpfully made plainer by circumstances.

I think you really are doing great but I keep getting confused that we are talking about a singular frog, correct?

When discussing our charges, problems, details, etc it's very important that those reading know whether a group is simultaneously involved - as that could be very relevant.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

"They" is a single specimen, correct?


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Kmc said:


> "They" is a single specimen, correct?


Sorry yeah, it is a single frog, my mistake


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You can put some of the leaf litter in there. Its good to have easy security, you may have just saying. 
Its really good that he's eating.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Kmc said:


> You can put some of the leaf litter in there. Its good to have easy security, you may have just saying.
> Its really good that he's eating.


I just wanted to say thank you again for all the help. Sick frog is sleeping right now, probably resting better than she did in the bigger tank. I have added a coconut hut and some leaf litter to her temp housing to help her feel more secure but I think her sleeping is a good sign that she's going to recover


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Roxxy said:


> I have been using a new amphibian specific vitamin for them


Which vitamin is that?


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Which vitamin is that?


Rep-Cal Herptivite with beta carotine


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Its Very important that you get a retinol A supplement for your frog. I have had to grind my own to fulfill this need for the past 17 years until i found a supplement i could trust that did it better, and thats Rapashy.


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## HollyB83 (Nov 8, 2020)

Hopefully your little sick frog is still doing well!
Do you still have others in the original tank? I saw you said you removed the sphagnum moss and added more leaf litter. I've had success with and read that the more hiding places you give them, the braver they will become. Some frogs are just a bit shy and definitely appreciate the visual barrier that some good, big leaves supply. I've seen some tinctorius individuals do some serious climbing, so I'm sure they would appreciate some branches. I would look into getting some scraggly driftwood as it will help fill out the empty space that you have. You could always try to mount some broms on to it as well. Broad leafed plants like Philodendrons and Pothos will also help keep your humidity up and give the frogs places to climb on/hide as well as help fill out some of the tank. Not to mention, you can get some good types of these plants for relatively cheap.
Whenever you're feeding them, you can add a slice of banana to the tank to encourage the flies to stay in one spot, making it easier to keep an eye on how much they're actually eating. That's what I've done for froglets before and its very effective.
Hopefully everything works out and please keep us updated on your little one!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Roxxy said:


> Rep-Cal Herptivite with beta carotine


That is not an amphibian specific vitamin (also, I hope you're mixing it with plain calcium as required). The Vitamin A in that product is likely not usable by amphibians.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Update: I gave the frog a warm bath in a very thin layer of water that she could stand in, as well as massaging her, just to make sure she wasn't constipated. She's stopped the gaping behavior for now and seems less bloated even though she didn't defecate. I still have her in quarantine and if she's not showing signs of sickness in the next two days I will re-add her to the tank.. 

I was confused about the vitamin because it says its for reptiles and amphibians on the can. I have ordered Rapashy to come in, and I am adding calcium to their meals.

For the advice on plants, thanks much! I'm definitely going to be doing some things when I rebuild the vivarium this weekend


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## Amagaeru (May 6, 2015)

Frogs shed their skin. 
I highly suspect the opening and closing of mouth is just normal shedding behavior.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yes frogs shed. However the circumstances present and experiances similiar (small frogs being improperly contained in "a little water" during transport) open into a risk potentiality that warranted immediate change from the clearly over saturated env.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Great job Roxxy. Still not out of danger, if their is water in the lungs there can be a predisposition to infection. RI inf in frogs are discreet. Gaping and rapid 'mouthing' as if swallowing. Not like the signature gaping and odd posture while breaking corneum at the rim of the mouth.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

Amagaeru said:


> Frogs shed their skin.
> I highly suspect the opening and closing of mouth is just normal shedding behavior.


Would they be doing this for a while? It has been about five days of this behavior


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

Roxxy said:


> Would they be doing this for a while? It has been about five days of this behavior


No, it's typically started and over with relatively quickly. I've never timed from start to finish, but I've often observed the frogs doing so at the time of my lights turning on and then seeing them hopping around the next time I walk by around lunch time.


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## Roxxy (Nov 29, 2020)

As an update: the frog is doing well. She's moving around, hunting bugs and evacuating. She rejoined the other frogs and the mouth gaping is almost nonexistant now. I can only assume she got a little hurt during shipping and is recovering. Thank you all for the advice and assistance. I'll be rebuilding their vivarium this Saturday and hope to post pics of that on Dendroboard soon!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well, i do hope there will be no more troubles, and in the space shown i really think the fogger isnt a positive. 

Still, it cant be emphasized how important retinol A is. Very important to note he is able to shoot and seize his flies without difficulty.

A defiency in A has many effects including a breakdown of mucosal lining. Its not too far of a stretch to consider the mouthings you describe as a response though this is a speculation. You might want to research nutrition and the roles of the nutrients on the lable of your Rapashy supps.

Best wishes and health to your frog and you too.


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