# Vivarium Build Idea - Opinions?



## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Here's my build idea for a pair of Azureus Dart Frogs...

I'm going to use a 10 gallon (20" x 10" x 12") glass tank. I'm gonna buy a hinged glass cover for the tank and and set a 20" incandescent strip light on top of the glass cover. I'll be swapping the bulbs out for something in the 6000K's.

I'm going to use the "Great Stuff - Silicone - Peat Moss" method of building a landscape for my vivarium. I'm going to build a wall on the back of the vivarium with this method. It won't stick outward too much, but I'll build some driftwood and vines into it and some places for plants on the wall. I'll also use the "Great Stuff - Silicone - Peat Moss" method to make a very slightly inward-curved "floor". It will be curved enough where all of the water from misting that lands on it will slowly collect in a tiny, very shallow puddle right in the middle of the vivarium "floor". I'll take water out of the puddle as needed. So you can get an idea of how deep the puddle will be, I'll keep the water level where it will only be up to my frog's tummies. There "floor" of the vivarium will be covered in sphagnum moss (on top of the peat moss from the landscaping technique I'm gonna use) and there will be no plants over the majority of the "floor". I'm gonna line the back wall with plants and there will be small plants along the sides of the vivarium. This will allow premium hopping space for the frogs. 
*Any suggestions on my landscape will be greatly appreciated.*

The plants in the vivarium will include a small bromeliad or two (any suggestions on types of small bromeliads?), a bunch of different tillandsias, a small fern (any suggestions of types of small ferns?), a small-leafed ivy, a few other plants with adult sizes below 10" (any suggestions?), and possibly a small section of my Paph Gloria Naugle (not for an intention of flowering and it will be removed when too big). *Plant suggestions will be greatly appreciated.*

So does everything sound good as far as the tank goes? I know it would be nice to go bigger, but there's literally no space in my room and my parents don't want a giant tank for frogs. I'm open to suggestions.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm a little confused by your description of your great stuff floor. I wouldn't worry about trying to make a floor out of great stuff...it would be way too much work. You should do some searches for false bottoms. You can make it out of egg crate or hydroton, and then you should put a substrate over it like this: ABG mix (8 quart) followed by a layer of leaf litter. If you want a small puddle just slope one corner below the water line. I just finished a 10 gallon and posted it here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/65849-new-grow-out-tank.html There are lots of build threads on here, I would look at those and copy the steps they have done. I have build pics of this tank too if you'd like, I just didn't upload them to the forum.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

For several reason's I would recomend avoiding tilly. If this is your first viv keep it simple. Go with creeping fig or wandering jew. You can also use a rabiit foot or korean rock fern. They do pretty good in viv's. That tank is also kinda small for brom's go to some of the websites listed in the link section. Generally there are some good pictures and sizes. 

As a side note most 10's I've seen don't use backgrounds or any type of water feature. There kinda small to begin with and ultimatley you are just taking away space from the frogs. Most users agree that a 10 gal/ per frog is standard is preferred (I actaully use 20 gal/frog). Therefore 2 frogs = 20 gal minimum tank size.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

freaky_tah said:


> I'm a little confused by your description of your great stuff floor. I wouldn't worry about trying to make a floor out of great stuff...it would be way too much work. You should do some searches for false bottoms. You can make it out of egg crate or hydroton, and then you should put a substrate over it like this: ABG mix (8 quart) followed by a layer of leaf litter. If you want a small puddle just slope one corner below the water line. I just finished a 10 gallon and posted it here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/65849-new-grow-out-tank.html There are lots of build threads on here, I would look at those and copy the steps they have done. I have build pics of this tank too if you'd like, I just didn't upload them to the forum.


Do you (or anyone else) know any how-to/informative articles regarding false bottoms? I searched but couldn't find anything. Thanks in advance! 



PantMan said:


> For several reason's I would recomend avoiding tilly. If this is your first viv keep it simple. Go with creeping fig or wandering jew. You can also use a rabiit foot or korean rock fern. They do pretty good in viv's. That tank is also kinda small for brom's go to some of the websites listed in the link section. Generally there are some good pictures and sizes.
> 
> As a side note most 10's I've seen don't use backgrounds or any type of water feature. There kinda small to begin with and ultimatley you are just taking away space from the frogs. Most users agree that a 10 gal/ per frog is standard is preferred (I actaully use 20 gal/frog). Therefore 2 frogs = 20 gal minimum tank size.


Aren't tillandsias relatively hardy? I have no problems with caring for tropical plants, as I've been keeping many types of orchids for nearly a year now. 

I don't want a very bushy plant like Wandering Jew, however I really like Creeping Fig. Are Neoregelias fairly easy to keep? I really like Silver Lace Ferns and Prayer Plants. Are they pretty hardy?

I was told that there are many people that have had success of breeding Azureus in 10 gallon tanks. One member on Dendroboard that he saw no difference in the happiness of his Azureus pair when he had them in a 10 gallon opposed to a 20 gallon. I'll try to talk my mom into letting me get a 15 gallon opposed to a 10 gallon. 

Also, the background stick out very much (probably 3" at most) and there will be no water feature since I'm gonna use a false bottom instead of using the great stuff to create a bottom.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Tilly need an air circulation and doesn't want to be wet all the time. Ultimately you need to create microclimates in your viv and a ten is too small to do that.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Percularis said:


> Do you (or anyone else) know any how-to/informative articles regarding false bottoms? I searched but couldn't find anything. Thanks in advance!


If you go and look in the parts and construction forum, you can search just that forum in the top right corner. I searched "false bottom"... Here's one with pics of an egg crate false bottom. I don't think it's a step-by-step guide, but the pics show you what the general idea is.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52386-viv-projects-begin.html

If you don't want to use egg crate, you can just use hydroton (Hydroton 3L (8/16 mm)), followed by a divider screen, and then your substrate.

There's a wealth of information out there for you, you just have to put some time in searching and reading. You may not find exactly what you're looking for but with enough searching you'll get the idea.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

PantMan said:


> Tilly need an air circulation and doesn't want to be wet all the time. Ultimately you need to create microclimates in your viv and a ten is too small to do that.


I'll be mounting the Tillandsias onto the back Great Stuff wall of the vivarium, so they won't be wet all the time. The air circulation is to help them dry, and I won't be directly watering them. I plan to mist the vivarium when needed to keep a high humidity level, but when I do I'll avoid misting the Tillandsias unless it's time for their watering.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

freaky_tah said:


> If you go and look in the parts and construction forum, you can search just that forum in the top right corner. I searched "false bottom"... Here's one with pics of an egg crate false bottom. I don't think it's a step-by-step guide, but the pics show you what the general idea is.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/52386-viv-projects-begin.html
> 
> If you don't want to use egg crate, you can just use hydroton (Hydroton 3L (8/16 mm)), followed by a divider screen, and then your substrate.
> ...


Thanks for the link. I'll do a more thorough search next time.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

A few suggestions: 
Don't make the background too big! If you have one, keep it very thin. None of my 10 gallons have them because I feel they take too much space. A 2" thick background and 2" false bottom quickly turns your viv into about an 8 gallon tank, which is really pushing it for two azureus, especially as adults. 
I'm not sure if I understand, it seems you are trying to also cover the bottom in GS and cover in peat moss? I wouldn't do this, too impractical; instead, use a thin drainage layer (1/2-1" of gravel or LECA clay balls) and I wouldn't even use a false bottom because of the taking up space issue, covered by a separater (weed screen, mesh, etc.) and topped off with a thin layer of substrate (no more than 1-2").
Cover a lot of the ground, or better yet all of the open ground space, with leaf litter. This is better than just moss for several reasons, including the fact that it gives small hiding places almost all over the ground and greatly increases surface area. 
The light and lid should be fine, I use those exact ones with several of my 10 gallons. 
Add a coco-hut or upside-down flower pot, etc., something to give cover for hiding as well as a future breeding location.
For plants, keep it simple. You seem to have the idea to try to plant well while preserving floor space, which is good. My suggestion is focus on at least a couple good plants for the frogs, and then fill in with anything else you want. For these big frogs, the plants will mainly be used as cover rather than climbing in this rather small space. For example, my azureus do not use neo broms for climbing or creeping fig. Pothos!- I know they may be ugly or boring to some, but I would suggest something large and broad leafed like them for part of the tank- just keep them trimmed down and under control. There are also several other larger, vining plants (wandering jew) that could work. Something with strong, sturdy, thick leaves that is relatively low-growing, especially with horizontal leaves only a few inches off the ground will also be used for climbing sometimes. Sorry, I don't know any names off the top of my head, but I find them at Lowes, HD, etc. After getting some good plants for the frogs, fill in any extra space you want with small vines, broms, ferns, etc.
Hope this helps and keep asking if you can't find something and are unsure of it.
Bryan


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks for all the great info Bryan! That helps a lot. 
Leaf litter is rather ugly to me. I like mosses and it will keep the frog's kin moist, so would it work if I covered the substrate in sphagnum or some other type of moss? I was thinking of getting some magnolia leaves to put on one part of the floor so the frogs can hide.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Percularis said:


> Thanks for all the great info Bryan! That helps a lot.
> Leaf litter is rather ugly to me. I like mosses and it will keep the frog's kin moist, so would it work if I covered the substrate in sphagnum or some other type of moss? I was thinking of getting some magnolia leaves to put on one part of the floor so the frogs can hide.


Ahh, but it's not about you, Perc. It's about the frogs! Moss is for your eyes only, your frogs couldn't care less about it. Leaf litter?? Now that's for your frogs!! It's where they live in the wild. It provides hiding spaces to make them feel secure. When they feel secure they will be more bold and will be out in the open more often. The leaf litter gives your springtails and isopods places to hide, live, and breed in. Plus it is their food. A lively microfauna (springs and isos) population ensures a healthy, clean, and clean smelling, Viv.
Take the 2 for 4 challenge, use an average of 2 inches of leaf litter for 4 months and I guarantee you will learn to love it and never go back!


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm more than likely going to go with a 15 gallon. It has almost double the surface area on the floor as a 10 gallon would. I don't want a tacky coconut husk sitting in the tank, so I think I might literally build it into the back wall and cover it with the "Great Stuff - Silicone - Peat Moss" method. I would cut it in half so it would rest flat against the back of the tank, which allows the frogs more room to hop around outside.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Ahh, but it's not about you, Perc. It's about the frogs! Moss is for your eyes only, your frogs couldn't care less about it. Leaf litter?? Now that's for your frogs!! It's where they live in the wild. It provides hiding spaces to make them feel secure. When they feel secure they will be more bold and will be out in the open more often. The leaf litter gives your springtails and isopods places to hide, live, and breed in. Plus it is their food. A lively microfauna (springs and isos) population ensures a healthy, clean, and clean smelling, Viv.
> Take the 2 for 4 challenge, use an average of 2 inches of leaf litter for 4 months and I guarantee you will learn to love it and never go back!


Do they have to have 100% leaf litter, or could I cover half in leaf litter, half in some sort of moss, and throw in some magnolia leaves on both sides?


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## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

Purple mican is another large leafed vining plant. I use it in all my vivs. It does not have small roots that can tangle a frog. As for the cocohut. Just use it on the viv floor. When they breed you will want to be able to lift it to grab the eggs. It eventually gets coveres in moss anyway. Plant the vining plants around it and they will eventually envelope it and you wont really see it. Like Pumilio said, it is about the frogs.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Percularis said:


> Leaf litter is rather ugly to me. I like mosses and it will keep the frog's skin moist, so would it work if I covered the substrate in sphagnum or some other type of moss? I was thinking of getting some magnolia leaves to put on one part of the floor so the frogs can hide.


I agree with leaf litter being a bit ugly at first but you do get used to it. Which reminds me, I should put some more leaf litter down. Now that it's been in the viv for a while it has lain down flat and is getting a bit too thin. Anyhow, I don't think mosses are a super important source of moisture for the dart's skin. How would they get by in the wild living in leaf litter?

With almost all things in life, feel free to strike a balance. Leaf litter for the darts, moss for you. I've got what I consider a lot of "moss" in my tank. Don't anyone take this the wrong way, but if we really did what's absolute best for the frogs in every situation I don't think we'd be sticking them in small glass boxes in the first place.  It's okay to enjoy them and to mold their habitat to be enjoyed equally by you and them. Here's a shot I took a few weeks ago. It sounds like this is kinda what you were thinking?









There's riccia (obviously) that takes up the front and center area of the tank. All the side areas are leaf-litter. It's a bit more than half and half leaf litter/moss (bit more leaf area IMO). On top of the wood pieces I put Java moss and its been doing really well. A piece of java moss also landed on the coco hut and I've left it there to see what happens. It doesn't show in this pic, but not long after it shot a bunch of new green growth out and is taking over the coco hut.


Edit - Gosh, I should take some new pictures. It's really grown in and evolved in just these last couple weeks alone! Bonus points for whoever finds the frog in the picture first


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

PeanutbuttER said:


> Edit - Gosh, I should take some new pictures. It's really grown in and evolved in just these last couple weeks alone! Bonus points for whoever finds the frog in the picture first


I see him! Well...ok I just see a blue splash of color about two inches above the cocohut hiding behind the green/white plant


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

If the frog in the above picture is an azureus, I think it is above the coco-hut on the background behind of those green with white spots leaves. You don't have to cover the entire floor with leaf litter, but I would do at least half, preferably more. The frogs won't need moss to get moisture if you set up the tank properly; give them another source of water, or frequent misting, or just keep some of the leaves moist. I actually prefer all leaf litter or only a little moss because it's more natural looking and way easier because I rarely get moss that grows and actually spreads over the whole floor. Do what you like, but keep in mind the needs of the frogs. What you may like is to plant small sections of moss say 1-3" in diameter all around and surround it all by leaf litter, and this way you will strike a nice balance and it should look nice once everything grows in and it looses the "choppy" look of small moss patches as the leaf/moss boundaries fade away to natural growth. 
Coco-huts actually blend in and look pretty natural in time after things grow in; if you prefer to add it to your background that's fine, but it's pointless if you aim to breed them because you won't be able to remove it and collect the eggs. 
A 15 gallon tank sounds like a good choice, much more room for the pair and better options for planting and landscaping.
Bryan


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

Percularis said:


> Do you (or anyone else) know any how-to/informative articles regarding false bottoms? I searched but couldn't find anything. Thanks in advance!


Let me google that for you


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

PeanutbuttER said:


> I agree with leaf litter being a bit ugly at first but you do get used to it. Which reminds me, I should put some more leaf litter down. Now that it's been in the viv for a while it has lain down flat and is getting a bit too thin. Anyhow, I don't think mosses are a super important source of moisture for the dart's skin. How would they get by in the wild living in leaf litter?
> 
> With almost all things in life, feel free to strike a balance. Leaf litter for the darts, moss for you. I've got what I consider a lot of "moss" in my tank. Don't anyone take this the wrong way, but if we really did what's absolute best for the frogs in every situation I don't think we'd be sticking them in small glass boxes in the first place.  It's okay to enjoy them and to mold their habitat to be enjoyed equally by you and them. Here's a shot I took a few weeks ago. It sounds like this is kinda what you were thinking?
> 
> ...


What kind of moss is that? That's the kind of look I'm wanting to go for in my viv.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

PeanutbuttER said:


> There's riccia (obviously) that takes up the front and center area of the tank. On top of the wood pieces I put Java moss and its been doing really well.


He said what kind of moss is in the tank


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

freaky_tah said:


> He said what kind of moss is in the tank


lol Sorry I read it wrong! My bad.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I honestly think two adult Azureus would be perfectly fine in my 8 gallon, which is why I've decided to use it instead of going with a 15 gallon. However, this won't be your average 8 gallon. I'll be taking it up a level... literally! 

Can't find the quote, but I recall somebody (forget who) on Dendroboard saying that the only way I could use a tank that small is if I added different levels to the vivarium. I think it would be unique and different to do so. There will be no Great Stuff background which will add hopping area. What I plan to do is fill the vivarium with 2" of substrate covered in a layer of leaf litter. I'll make a ledge out of Great Stuff and cover it in some sort of moss. There will be a log of drift wood that goes all the way across the back of the ledge that I can put Tillandsias on. 

Here's some really bad, silly rough sketches... 



















It won't look so improper in real life lol and I'll put the plants to the sides so the frogs have maximum hopping room. Think I can pull it off? There's always room for adjustments. 

_EDIT: Yikes! Back ball..._


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

That could be cool, especially in a bigger tank. In 8g it would be hard to pull off.


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I remember it being mentioned to me multiple times that Azureus live on the floor of a tank. Does that mean they won't climb/jump up to the second level?


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

When it comes down to it, you're going to do what you want to do regardless of what people say...but if you really want to do what is best for the frogs you really should pay attention to what the experienced members of this board have said multiple times--an 8 gallon tank is just too small no matter what you do.

I like that you're trying to get creative, but just like Mitch said, pulling your design off successfully in the small space of an 8 gallon is probably not going to work.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

It's a nice thought, but I think it will be a lot harder than you think. I know it looks fine and neatly planned now, but trying to actually do it in a 10" deep tank will be hard. The way I see it, by the time you GS, silicone, coco-fiber, moss/plant, etc., your ledges will only be 2-3 inches of usable space. I don't know if you have ever seen a healthy, adult azureus, but they are big dart frogs! There are always exceptions, and this is just my personal observations, but azureus spend 90-95% of the time on the ground. They do climb up on small ledges or rocks/coco-huts/low plants, but only if they are close to the ground and it is not a steep path up. So unfortunately I think about half of the space would be almost wasted in your design because they probably would not use the upper half and higher platforms. If you insist on a 10 gallon, then honestly I would do it simple with no background, lots of floor space, and effective planting choices. I still recommend a 15 gallon, though, especially for a beginner because it gives you more room for error and space to use for planting and making features in the tank.
Bryan


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry, I'm just going to be blunt. This is a mistake. In my humble opinion, your 8 gallon viv is good for nothing besides quarantine, and possibly growing up a few froglets for the first few months. 
I get frustrated when people ask for advice here, and then ignore advice given by people with years of experience. I don't understand the mentality.


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## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Percularis said:


> I honestly think two adult Azureus would be perfectly fine in my 8 gallon, which is why I've decided to use it instead of going with a 15 gallon. However, this won't be your average 8 gallon. I'll be taking it up a level... literally! [/I]


I'm pretty sure this is not your intent but comments like this will only alienate you from some members who contribute a significant of knowledge and time into this board. Some very well respected and knowledgable people have said a ten gallon tank is a bad idea to turn around and say well I'm going to an eight gallon tank is akin to spitting in there face. People ignoring solid advice had been a recurring topic on this board. I can only recommend that you carefully read what has been recommended here and follow through. Otherwise what is going to happen is you're going to continue to ask questions but no one will bother to respond. Its kind of like the story of the boy who cried wolf. I wish you the best of luck and urge you to really try listening to what people are saying. They are only trying to help you and the frogs you plan to keep.

Later


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## Percularis (Mar 22, 2011)

I guess that means I'm going with a 15 gallon then.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sighs in relief, wiping the sweat from my brow.


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