# The TRUTH about ABG Mix!!



## frogboy

The truth is...it just plain ROCKS!! This ABG Mix is 8 years old! It was in my salamander viv. It was kept even wetter than a dart frog viv. Totally closed top, no vents, with a fourth of the viv being a pond. A waterfall leaked all over it for many years. 
I found a new home for my salamander and we are tearing his viv down. My dad (Pumilo) said it was going to be rotted and stinky when we dug into it. We churned it up and guess what? It smells fresh and clean! Like it was just put in! Dad said to point out all the air pockets you can still see in there. That's how it gets such good drainage! He said it's still perfectly good but we can't reuse it anyway because of germs.
It was developed at Atlanta Botanical Garden (thus the name, ABG Mix)

Here is how you make ABG Mix. My dad helped me make sure the recipe was right.

1 part milled peat

1 part milled sphagnum moss

1 part fine charcoal (We usually at least double this)

2 parts fine tree fern fiber

2 parts fine orchid bark

Here are a couple threads about ABG
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...fused-about-couple-substrate-ingrediants.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/62607-what-substrate.html


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## Scott

I agree that it is good - but it is too "rich" in comparison to what we are trying to emulate. Plants grow way too fast in it. I'm kind of weird in that I want my plants to grow slower (I pluck and toss plants that grow too fast).

Of course us saying we're trying to emulate a jungle in a small box is pretty ridiculous as well.

One excellent use for "used" ABG mix is for use in flower pots. I used mine mainly in African Violet pots. For those you need a "light" soil, and ABG works splendidly.

s


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## Pumilo

Sure, a clay substrate is closer to the real thing, but not everybody is ready to put in the time it takes to make a good clay substrate. Frogboy and I are experimenting with clay substrates in several vivs too. Here is what we are working with. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
But for an organic mix, I think it's hard to beat.


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## Scott

It's an excellent substrate. Used if for 16/17 years myself. 

s


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## dmartin72

What are you using now?



Scott said:


> It's an excellent substrate. Used if for 16/17 years myself.
> 
> s


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## Pumilo

He's talking nutrient poor, so Scott is most likely referring to a clay substrate.


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## tommy2

Can all of the ingredents be picked up at a Home Depot or Lowes to make this mix?


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## RMB

Everything but the tree fern fiber, you'll have to get that online most likely, or leave it out/ substitute coco fiber.


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## Colleen53

Thanks for the info Frogboy. I usually do not use "soil" in my vivs, as I have seen lots of gnats in the soil. Have you experienced any issues with soil gnats? I just use premium New Zealand spagnum moss, reptile bark and lots of leaf litter. Great thread too!!


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## Pumilo

I am Frogboy's dad. I have some answers for you. The tree fern fiber adds aeration and drainage. I don't think cocofiber would be an acceptable substitute for the tree fern. For the peat and sphagnum maybe, but not the tree fern. I feel that the tree fern is an important part of AGB. 
First, AGB Mix is available at Josh's frogs.
Second, Every component for AGB is available at good prices, here. OFE International Web Page

Colleen, as you mentioned, just about every soil mix can have fungus gnats. ABG can have them too. They will clear up after a short amount of time. They may be present for a month or so, but they have cleared out of every viv I've ever set up, soon enough.


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## poison beauties

I would definitely work on advancing it if you can. Part of the fun of this hobby is the hands on part of it. Trial and error. I have mixed clay into my own version of the ABG mix and the micro fauna exploded. I live near ABG and have been by there more than my share of times to talk substrate and plants. They seem to be set in their own mix so I say there is always room for improvement.

Michael


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## dmartin72

Michael...I was thinking the same thing about adding clay and maybe some sand to the current ABG mix. What type of clay are you using and how much are you adding? I'd be interested to hear your substrate recipe as the exploding micro fauna has peaked my interest.

Are the ABG ingredients listed on this thread the same ABG mixture that Josh's Frogs sell?

David



poison beauties said:


> I would definitely work on advancing it if you can. Part of the fun of this hobby is the hands on part of it. Trial and error. I have mixed clay into my own version of the ABG mix and the micro fauna exploded. I live near ABG and have been by there more than my share of times to talk substrate and plants. They seem to be set in their own mix so I say there is always room for improvement.
> 
> Michael


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## Pumilo

Josh's mix appears to be made according to this recipe.


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## Erikb3113

not sure if his includes ground charcoal as well, but the stuff i got had chunks of charcoal. My first experience with ABG, we'll see how it goes. I also came up a bit short for all three of my tanks so I cut it with a little extra coco soil


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## poison beauties

dmartin72 said:


> Michael...I was thinking the same thing about adding clay and maybe some sand to the current ABG mix. What type of clay are you using and how much are you adding? I'd be interested to hear your substrate recipe as the exploding micro fauna has peaked my interest.
> 
> Are the ABG ingredients listed on this thread the same ABG mixture that Josh's Frogs sell?
> 
> David



Ive tried adding in everything from sand to calci sand, vermiculite and other mulch's and barks. The only two things I have seen in the last years that made a real difference in the quality of the plants and abundance of micro fauna when added to the ABG mix are shredded leaf litter and Clay mix.

Ive used baked and wet clay and both did great. I use shredded seagrape leaves. Both the leaves and clay I use 1/4 the volume of the ABG and mix it in well. Drainage is great as we use false bottoms and I'm working now on new advancements for it and my culturing media which also have clay and shredded leaf litter.

Michael


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## Pumilo

I do a mix of half ABG mix and half hand crushed leaf litter (oak from my backyard) for my isopod cultures and they are flourishing in it!


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## Dancing frogs

About how much clay added? My first tanks were done with "by the book" ABG mix...was/am pleased with the results. Tried clay substrate, and am not pleased with how the plants responded (which has been poor). The purported benefits of clay for the animals is the reason to use it, but, in me experience, plants hate it.


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## poison beauties

Dancing frogs said:


> About how much clay added? My first tanks were done with "by the book" ABG mix...was/am pleased with the results. Tried clay substrate, and am not pleased with how the plants responded (which has been poor). The purported benefits of clay for the animals is the reason to use it, but, in me experience, plants hate it.


I add in 1/4 the volume of the ABG of clay. So 4 1 gallon bucket of AGB, I mix in 1 bucket of clay and a bucket of shredded leaf litter. Same with the shredded seas grape leaves. It has shown great increase in micro fauna and plant growth so long as there is decent drainage. I have broms planted in the media doing well.

Michael


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## Pumilo

Dancing frogs said:


> About how much clay added? My first tanks were done with "by the book" ABG mix...was/am pleased with the results. Tried clay substrate, and am not pleased with how the plants responded (which has been poor). The purported benefits of clay for the animals is the reason to use it, but, in me experience, plants hate it.


When I do clay, I put two big handfuls of ABG mix at the base of every plant, surrounding the roots, with a light layer of clay over the top. Plants have liked that so far.


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## dmartin72

I'm going to give that a try...sounds just about perfect. Thanks Michael.



poison beauties said:


> Ive tried adding in everything from sand to calci sand, vermiculite and other mulch's and barks. The only two things I have seen in the last years that made a real difference in the quality of the plants and abundance of micro fauna when added to the ABG mix are shredded leaf litter and Clay mix.
> 
> Ive used baked and wet clay and both did great. I use shredded seagrape leaves. Both the leaves and clay I use 1/4 the volume of the ABG and mix it in well. Drainage is great as we use false bottoms and I'm working now on new advancements for it and my culturing media which also have clay and shredded leaf litter.
> 
> Michael


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## Scott

As long as you're adding things - add leaf mulch (leaf mold). Just take maple or oak leaves and throw them in the blender for a few moments.

We know that's what the fauna we want in our tanks likes to eat - so just add it to the soil mix! 

s


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## dmartin72

Thanks for the blender tip!


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## FwoGiZ

how milled is the sphag moss? like fine coco fiber? almost powder? 
or just slightly milled? 
like this? 









i guess "fine" tree fern fiber refers to the "short" fiber referred to on the website?


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## dmartin72

How do you mill it? Blender?


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## Scott

Milled sphagnum is often available as a separate product. It is called damp off also.

I used to find it in a couple of specialty type places (Agway in New England). Your smaller lawn and garden places (not the BIG places - though it never hurts to check).

You can create it by putting sphagnum moss through the blender. It's the lower left product in the picture just above.

s


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## Scott

Yep, that's it.



FwoGiZ said:


> ... i guess "fine" tree fern fiber refers to the "short" fiber referred to on the website?


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## FwoGiZ

i would like people to elaborate on how and what kind of clay they use to make that enhanced ABG mix mix! I d like to try that too!
Do you use cat litter? or the red clay they sell in petshops? i ve heard bout other various names but it seems i cant find this around my place...
what kind of shops should i look for?



Pumilo said:


> When I do clay, I put two big handfuls of ABG mix at the base of every plant, surrounding the roots, with a light layer of clay over the top. Plants have liked that so far.


is that how everyone does it? im not sure what my "clay" should look like when doing this method... i guess im a bit noob regarding this and need step by step , and all the ingredient (water?) ..


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## frogboy

FwoGiZ said:


> how milled is the sphag moss? like fine coco fiber? almost powder?
> or just slightly milled?
> like this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i guess "fine" tree fern fiber refers to the "short" fiber referred to on the website?


Its milled to the consistency of saw dust.


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## Pumilo

FwoGiZ said:


> i would like people to elaborate on how and what kind of clay they use to make that enhanced ABG mix mix! I d like to try that too!
> Do you use cat litter? or the red clay they sell in petshops? i ve heard bout other various names but it seems i cant find this around my place...
> what kind of shops should i look for?
> 
> is that how everyone does it? im not sure what my "clay" should look like when doing this method... i guess im a bit noob regarding this and need step by step , and all the ingredient (water?) ..


Here is the clay that Frogboy and I use. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


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## Arpeggio

Colleen53 said:


> Thanks for the info Frogboy. I usually do not use "soil" in my vivs, as I have seen lots of gnats in the soil. Have you experienced any issues with soil gnats? I just use premium New Zealand spagnum moss, reptile bark and lots of leaf litter. Great thread too!!


Are soil gnats just gnats that come hatch out from the substrate?


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## Pumilo

Arpeggio said:


> Are soil gnats just gnats that come hatch out from the substrate?


Yes, the usually occur when the viv is at least couple weeks old. Don't think I've ever seen them last past two to three months. They are often mistaken for fruit flies that have reverted to fliers.


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## dmartin72

Anyone have a good source for clay? Do they have a dry unmixed version or does it come in solid blocks? If solid, how do you work with it to mix it into the ABG mix?

David


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## Pumilo

Just mixing any old clay into it is not going to give you the benefits of calcium enrichment that clay substrates are known for. Calcium Bentonite may offer some of the benefits. All my suppliers are listed in my already referenced thread.


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## phender

dmartin72 said:


> Anyone have a good source for clay? Do they have a dry unmixed version or does it come in solid blocks? If solid, how do you work with it to mix it into the ABG mix?
> 
> David


You can check this thread for a clay source.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/61016-clay-distributors-near-you.html


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## dmartin72

Thanks...that's good to know.



Pumilo said:


> Just mixing any old clay into it is not going to give you the benefits of calcium enrichment that clay substrates are known for. Calcium Bentonite may offer some of the benefits. All my suppliers are listed in my already referenced thread.


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## Colleen53

Pumilo said:


> Yes, the usually occur when the viv is at least couple weeks old. Don't think I've ever seen them last past two to three months. They are often mistaken for fruit flies that have reverted to fliers.


My tank is about 2 months old and I just don't remember the gnats being that bad with my other tanks (approx. 7). I'll be glad when it is more established and they "GO AWAY". Thanks for your comments Pumilo


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## Pumilo

Colleen53 said:


> My tank is about 2 months old and I just don't remember the gnats being that bad with my other tanks (approx. 7). I'll be glad when it is more established and they "GO AWAY". Thanks for your comments Pumilo


I promise, they will pass Colleen. They were bad in my Cayo Nancy viv. Just when I though they would drive me crazy, they disappeared COMPLETELY. Have not seen a single one in there since then. I think they started at about 1 month and were gone by month 3.


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## DragonSpirit1185

I'm glad you posted this frogboy 

I mixed some up with everything but the tree ferns
I'll have to add it later when I get some.

What I was using before this for my potted plants was peatmoss, perlite, charcoal, and sphagnum.

I hate how exspensive sphagnum is lol.

My soil doesn't quite look like yours. Yours looks a bit more twiggy lol.
Here is a pic of mine


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## Ed

In my experience, ABG in non-flow through enclosures is fairly stable although if there is a good microfauna content I see it compacting over time. I did notice that in a ten gallon tank with heavy microfaunal establishment on a flow through system with a decent misting schedule, that after about six months a large amount of it had broken down to the point where the gravel over the false bottom was begining to show through. In enclosure with lower amounts of micofauna or on lower misting schedules it may be differnet. This was set up next to a clay substrate tank for comparision.. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185

Ed I plan on using the abg mix on a false bottom....

You said you could see the gravel....
Do you need to put gravel on top of the false bottom in between it and the abg?
Cause I was just going to lay down the abg mix right on top of the false bottom screen then get some moss to grow on it....


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## Ed

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Ed I plan on using the abg mix on a false bottom....
> 
> You said you could see the gravel....
> Do you need to put gravel on top of the false bottom in between it and the abg?
> Cause I was just going to lay down the abg mix right on top of the false bottom screen then get some moss to grow on it....


I put the gravel down as I was running a comparision to a clay enclosure and I had put a layer of gravel down ontop of the screen in the clay tank. This way the conditions between the substrates was as equal as I could make them. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185

I'm not doing clay.
I'm just doing abg and moss but do I need to put gravel under the abg?


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## DJboston

Whatever works for you. I've been experimenting with clay for backgrounds lately. I've recently tried to let it dry before putting a top on to see what kind of cool erosion looking cracks I can have run along the background.

Might try experimenting with clay mixes in substrate as well.

At the moment I'm using my own mixture that I've always used. Coco bedding, peat moss, charcoal, and a little sterile potting soil. This mixture has always been simple and I always have a 5 gallon bucket full in case I need it. Been mixing it up though and one of my tanks has a pre-made ABG I ordered with a big plant order for the hell of it....plus I have one tank made using dendro-bedding from black jungle. All of my tanks have a thick leaf litter layer and the micro-fauna is great in all my tanks, even as small as 10 gallon tanks. Leaf litter is just so natural and can't imagine not using it on top of the soil mixture. I've been using thin and wet oak leaves that are near breaking down for the bottom layer of litter. On top of that goes the really thick oak and magnolia leaves that come dry and baked from places like Josh's frogs. 

While I am close to finishing my rack and only need to finish the bottom 3 vert conversions on tuesday when they are delivered, I guess I haven't put as much thought into what will truly hold up over the years.

I feel lucky that while my plants grow good, they don't grow too fast and out of control since I have a lot of smaller tanks on the top two shelves of rack. I guess I never base my substrate on what will grow the plants at incredible rates. That would just get annoying to trim back like crazy. My lighting is pretty bright 48" dual GE shop lights at 6500k...but I will never go beyond this with anything crazy bright as I don't think I would want to keep up with plant growth.

I like threads like this as it's a subject I'm definitely behind on.

D


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## DragonSpirit1185

I just finished my first vert convert 
Thanks for posting this thread and showing me the mixture.
I live 30 mins from Atlanta Botantical Gardens and I'm gonna go there within the next month and view the gardens and whatnot and get some ABG mix directly from them.

DjBoston,
I'm going to order the kit soom to replace the side glass.
Who did you get your kit from?

Check out my build:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63773-10-vert-n00b-tank.html


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## mainbutter

I have a question about the ABG mix:

When it comes to the sphagnum moss.. Is it actually necessary to have the sphagnum milled? There are consistency differences in actual milled sphagnum, finely chopped, and whole long fiber, and I think I could see benefits to each. If I have whole long fiber sphagnum, should I just toss it in a blender for a bit, leave as is, or what?

Has anyone tried substituting a cheaper alternative to sphagnum? How does coconut coir compare with milled sphagnum? It seems that they share many properties.

Thanks!


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## Pumilo

mainbutter said:


> I have a question about the ABG mix:
> 
> When it comes to the sphagnum moss.. Is it actually necessary to have the sphagnum milled? There are consistency differences in actual milled sphagnum, finely chopped, and whole long fiber, and I think I could see benefits to each. If I have whole long fiber sphagnum, should I just toss it in a blender for a bit, leave as is, or what?
> 
> Has anyone tried substituting a cheaper alternative to sphagnum? How does coconut coir compare with milled sphagnum? It seems that they share many properties.
> 
> Thanks!


Just throw it in the blender for 10 or 20 seconds. I don't think that coconut would last as long as sphagnum.


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## james67

treefern/ dicksonia source:

Tropical Plant Products

they do NOT accept CC payment. only checks or MO.

james


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## jacobi

I don't know what the truth is about the following, but I have heard that tree fern fiber is, from an environmental point of view, not the best thing to be using as it is harvested from a non renewable source, this is said to be because Dicksonia grow extremely slowly. Anybody have any opinions? I'm also curious as to whether anyone has read The Art of Keeping Snakes by Philippe de Vosjoli, and experimented using his bioactive substrate recipe in a dart frog viv.


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## jacobi

oh by the way, I'm newish here. Hi everyone! So I apologize if this has been brought up already...


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## Pumilo

jacobi said:


> I don't know what the truth is about the following, but I have heard that tree fern fiber is, from an environmental point of view, not the best thing to be using as it is harvested from a non renewable source, this is said to be because Dicksonia grow extremely slowly. Anybody have any opinions?


That's true. It is over-harvested and considered non-sustainable. That's one of the ethical dilemmas in using it.


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## james67

you know, thats what i've always heard (and at times repeated).

dicksonia (treefern) is an endangered plant and harvests are made in an unsustainable manor.

however i decided to do some research on this, and it turns out that international trade in treefern is strictly controlled, and only a few sp. of treefern are either endangered or vulnerable, which happen to be ones not used for fibers. 

i wonder how this misinformation became SO widespread? i remember reading it on the dusktropic site, but being that they are selling a treefern alternative, i could see a sort of motivation for them to spread this bad info.

james


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## Wolfenrook

The hard black treefern fiber has pretty much vanished over here in the UK now, most xaxim over here now is the soft brown stuff which isn't protected. It works just as well though, the only negative with it is when ground it tends to become quite dusty.

The thing is, for every argument against using natural products (xaxim, natural wood, sphagnum peat etc) there is another argument against using man made products (plastics, ahesives etc), often with the man made products having an even nastier effect on our environment than removing the natural ones. End of the day, even clay is a natural product, usually mined in large open cast mines which scar the landscape.

I use a variant of ABG myself, I would agree that the xaxim fibers are very important, and with the increased availability of the not protected soft xaxim over here now I have no qualms using it. I also use natural wood decor rather than trying to construct fake ones out of foam, adhesives etc. 

But yeah, ABG and it's variants is excellent stuff. I add powdered calcium bentonite to mine, and don't add charcoal, and it works a treat for me.

Ade


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## Neontra

ABG mix, is great. I got a little sample of it to see it and it is great. I'm using it in my new tank. The olny thing I would add is spagnum, it makes it look weird.


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## SEWERFest

Great info, guys. Unfortunately, it looks like I'll be spending more on the substrate than on the tanks.


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## rhino43grr

does everyone sterilize the ABG components before mixing? if so, how?


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## Pumilo

I must admit that we do not sterilize the ABG mix we use in our vivs. We do sterilize it for use in Isopod cultures, however. We just get it good and sopping wet, and then microwave it till it's good and steaming hot plus a couple minutes. Nothing short of an Autoclave will guarantee that it's really sterile, but we do what we can with what we've got. I tried to sucker Ed into sending us his Autoclave for free but somehow he saw right through me!


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## rhino43grr

thanks for the quick reply, i'll probably do the microwave technique since the orchid bark and sphagnum were from the outdoor garden area at lowes and the charcoal was 1/2 off since the bag was ripped.


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## Colleen53

Be careful about microwaving chunks of charcoal. I had quarter size pieces that I put in the microwave and within 10-15 seconds, I got sparks flashing!!


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## Pumilo

Weird! I wonder why? Were they fully saturated? If it is an issue you could always just boil it and later squeeze out the excess moisture.


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## Colleen53

Good Question. Wish someone would explain to me why this happened. I put several pieces in a cereal bowl and added some water into it. I was not about to experiment with the charcoal in the microwave to see if it would catch on fire. I tried it 2 separate times and sparks were noticed both times. Now, it has not happened when I would sterile ABG mix in the microwave.  is what I say!!!


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## rsain

Been using this in my new viv. Very happy so far. One question - how about storage? I'm tempted to mix a bunch up and just keep it on hand. How should I go about this?

Keeping it moist seems like a bad idea - so maybe just keep it dry and stuff into ziplocks?

Thoughts?

- ryan


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## frogboy

rsain said:


> Been using this in my new viv. Very happy so far. One question - how about storage? I'm tempted to mix a bunch up and just keep it on hand. How should I go about this?
> 
> Keeping it moist seems like a bad idea - so maybe just keep it dry and stuff into ziplocks?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> - ryan


If you dry it out completely, it should store fine and long. Don't store it wet. The result of storing it wet could cause it to break-down and mold.


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## rsain

frogboy said:


> If you dry it out completely, it should store fine and long. Don't store it wet. The result of storing it wet could cause it to break-down and mold.


That was my expectation. I will just mix it dry to begin with - then wet it when it's time to use.

Thanks!

- ryan


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## frogboy

Perfect. Me and my dad mix ours dry.


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## hydrophyte

I just cooked up a batch of this stuff. It's great! It drains so much better than pro mix.

It smells good too.

I had a lot of dust from the tree fern and the charcoal, so I misted it during mixing to reduce dust.


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## Dartolution

In reading this thread, this has got me thinking about soil recipes for my new build that I'm working on. 
In my 20L (dendrobates tinctorius "Azureus") tank I just used bio balls on the bottom(plastic balls used in the aquarium hobbie for bacterial applications) for drainage, then a layer of screen, then SeaChems "fluorite" topped off with coco bedding and sphagnum then a bit of leaf litter. 

Plants seen to grow fine but I didn't want the expense of fluorite this go around. 

I was thinking a mix of peat, sphagnum, charcoal (the cheap stuff in the bag available at FRED'S of LOWES) , sand (home depot blasting sand), and laterite ... 

The laterite idea came to me as a substitute for clay... I mainly just want it for its nutrient value for the plants. It's available at local pet stores in a box. I was just thinking of sprinkling a layer of it or two in the substrate. 

This tank will have a false bottom. 

I don't want to use tree fern because of The possible environmental impact (which may or,may not truly be of concern after ready this) but also because of its price/shipping etc... 

What do you guys think? Suggestions? 
What's the thought about using the laterite in layers sprinkled?


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## james67

if youve read the thread then it should be clear that tree fern fiber is an essential part of the mix. removing it (for whatever reason) will create a substrate that is not going to live up to its potential.

there are plenty of sources and some are much more reasonable (price wise) than others

james


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## Pumilo

Without tree fern fiber, it is simply NOT ABG mix. The harvest of tree fern fiber is 100% sustainable harvest.


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## Dartolution

Well yes I realize this I wasn't trying to create "ABG" mix just rather create something similar that would do its purpose intended. 


If I must use tree fern fibers what source would you recommend? 

No comments about the laterite yet?


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## james67

latterite is just as expensive (if not more expensive) than flourite. the money would be better spent on the tree fern fiber IMO.

in the case of ABG, i think the adage "if it aint broke dont fix it" works well

i'll PM you the name of a good very inexpensive supplier

james


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## Pumilo

Personally, if I'm going to use clay, I'm just going to use clay. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
If you are really wanting to try something different, Turface, from a John Deere Landscaper, would be much cheaper than flourite or latterite.


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## Dartolution

Thanks James!

The laterite I would be willing to spend the money on it because I've seen how it works with aquatics


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## Dartolution

Hey doug! 

Yes I read that thread as well. Unfortunately that method is not very convenient for me to use. Hence why sprinkling laterite was my thought.

I don't care to use it for drainage, just for extra nutrients. 

Also was thinking about adding orchid bark to the mix as well. Lol
Okay yes this is ABG with sand and laterite added end of story!

It's midnight I need to go to bed I'm delirious on here looking at bugs and dirt!


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## Ed

Dartolution said:


> Hey doug!
> 
> Yes I read that thread as well. Unfortunately that method is not very convenient for me to use. Hence why sprinkling laterite was my thought.


Unfotunately just sprinkling it into the ABG mix won't provide the same benefits as using clay itself. If making clay isn't convient to you, you should check out using Turface instead. 

Ed


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## Dartolution

Are you talking about mixing this turface in with the peat, sand, sphagnum, tree fern, charcoal, and whatever else?


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## Dartolution

After looking it up the only benefit I'm seeing is just to reduce soil compaction and increase drainage... 

This is not why I am interested in laterite. I am interested in laterite for its elemental value. Adding iron to the mix for plant growth. Does this "turface" have that readily available to plants or is it fired clay?


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## Ed

Dartolution said:


> Are you talking about mixing this turface in with the peat, sand, sphagnum, tree fern, charcoal, and whatever else?


No instead of the ABG mix... It is a clay that isn't fired to the same level as you see with Leca (for example). In the enviroment it degrades slowly over about 20 years. It has a high cation exchange capacity. 

So with all of the focus on the plants, are you planning the tank for the plants or the frogs? That distinction is where the two primary differences in substrate choice diverge. 

Ed


----------



## hydrophyte

I have a quick question. Can anybody think of any downside, aside from looks, to substituting the small-sized (4-8mm) LECA in place of the charcoal in the ABG mix? 

I like all of the other ingredients, but it seems like it might be improved with replacement of the charcoal. I really get a lot of black dust handling the charcoal, and the stuff that I got was in general of widely varying sizes. It seems that charcoal could also sequester nutrients and rob the plants. And, I also read that charcoal in a potting mix raises pH.


----------



## Dartolution

Hey Ed thanks for the clarification. I remembered I had a post about soils not to long after submitting that post and went back to it. 

Well, the viv will really be planted for both the frogs and the plants. 
Thats why instead of one or the other I was wanting to get both benefits in one. 

Maybe instead of mixing those ingrediants do a layer of Turface at the bottom of the ABG mix? Im thinking this will serve both purposes. 

Maybe doing the two layers VS mixing the two products. 

what are your thoughts on this idea?

Also to the previous post. That is an interesting question.

My question specifically about Charcoal is if I can use the charcoal from (lowes, freds wherever) (lump charcoal) for the substrate? just bust it up as I do for my springtails. Im assuming this isnt a problem.


----------



## Ed

the difference is that you are avoiding the region of the greatest bioactivity of invertebrates by going with the ABG mix... Clay and to a slightly lesser extent provides conditions similar to that found in nature which is unlike the ABG mix. ABG mix is aimed more at the plants while clay and turface are aimed at the frogs... 
ABG mix is deficient in calcium (a limiting nutrient for invertebrates) and results in the microfauna having a much poorer calcium to phosphorus ratio than those found in the wild. Mixing in a small portion of clay or even laterite etc, doesn't modify this sufficiently to benefit the frogs... Frogs when they feed often ingest portions of the soil along with the invertebrates and this can be a significant source of calcium to balance the ratios in the frogs.... 
Properly worked clay, provides good conditions for plants as well as the frogs provided you prevent the substrate from water logging.. It takes a little more work but you end up with a substrate that is stable for quite a long time (potentially much more than a decade). Nutrient input occurs when feeding the frogs (including excess supplements) and leaf litter.. and typically is more than sufficient to provide stable plant growth... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

hydrophyte said:


> I like all of the other ingredients, but it seems like it might be improved with replacement of the charcoal. I really get a lot of black dust handling the charcoal, and the stuff that I got was in general of widely varying sizes. It seems that charcoal could also sequester nutrients and rob the plants. And, I also read that charcoal in a potting mix raises pH.


 
Look up terra preta.... 

Ed


----------



## Pumilo

Dartolution said:


> My question specifically about Charcoal is if I can use the charcoal from (lowes, freds wherever) (lump charcoal) for the substrate? just bust it up as I do for my springtails. Im assuming this isnt a problem.


Yes, you can use cheap, lump, hardwood charcoal such as Cowboy or Frontier.


----------



## Pumilo

hydrophyte said:


> I have a quick question. Can anybody think of any downside, aside from looks, to substituting the small-sized (4-8mm) LECA in place of the charcoal in the ABG mix?
> 
> I like all of the other ingredients, but it seems like it might be improved with replacement of the charcoal. I really get a lot of black dust handling the charcoal, and the stuff that I got was in general of widely varying sizes. It seems that charcoal could also sequester nutrients and rob the plants. And, I also read that charcoal in a potting mix raises pH.


First, check Ed's link regarding charcoal. Part of the reason charcoal is sometimes added to soils is to keep it fresh and sweet. I think it helps to keep your viv fresh in the early months. Eventually it will lose it's ability to freshen the soil but by then, your plant growth should be taking up nutrients and freshening the viv that way.


----------



## drutt

james67 said:


> if youve read the thread then it should be clear that tree fern fiber is an essential part of the mix. removing it (for whatever reason) will create a substrate that is not going to live up to its potential.
> 
> there are plenty of sources and some are much more reasonable (price wise) than others
> 
> james


Hi

If I cant find this tree fern fiber can I use something else??


----------



## gex23

I'm very interested in swapping the ABG mix for a clay based substrate, but in the UK, neither turface nor redart clay are available. 

Would you consider any aquatic clay based substrates as feasible? I'm not especially bothered about the high purchase cost, but rather a healthy environment for the future inhabitants. Thoughts?

Regards

Anthony


----------



## Pumilo

drutt said:


> Hi
> 
> If I cant find this tree fern fiber can I use something else??


Without the tree fern fiber it is simply not ABG mix and it won't have the same properties. You will probably not find tree fern fiber locally. James has some good sources for it. If you are only doing a viv or two, you are probably better off simply ordering some ABG mix from Josh's frogs.


----------



## Boondoggle

drutt said:


> Hi
> 
> If I cant find this tree fern fiber can I use something else??


NE Herp is a vendor here and ships large, medium, and small bags of it.


----------



## james67

gex23 said:


> in the UK, neither turface nor redart clay are available.


i cant believe that redart isnt available. that would mean that all potters in england use white body clay, and that doesnt sound right.

james


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> i cant believe that redart isnt available. that would mean that all potters in england use white body clay, and that doesnt sound right.


It is possible that red art isn't available since that is a specific location harvested in the USA and I've seen some sellers that didn't carry it. I do have doubts that multiple equivalent clays aren't available from ceramic/pottery suppliers.... since high iron clays are some of the most common clays used in making pottery and virtually all will function the same way in the enclosurer. 

Ed


----------



## tmos540

Dang, I was gonna use the exo-terra eco earth stuff my lps sells, and stick some plants in it, maybe add a little fertilizer that is frog safe/water plants with old fish-tank water I change out every week. I figure if the fish can live in it, the frogs can live with it, no? The water would be at the exact same levels as the frogs would have, so there should not be any problem, right? I like the idea of a simple pre-mixed substrate myself, expanded clay on top of a false bottom with a couple inches of coconut fiber mixed with peat and sphagnum moss. Not a lot to mess with. Probably does not last as long as the ABG mix, though, would it?


----------



## ckays

> I figure if the fish can live in it, the frogs can live with it, no?


NO.

You don't want to cross contaminate different enclosures, fish tanks, etc. You run the risk of introducing foreign pathogens in the frog tank in this manner. 

Not a good idea.


----------



## tmos540

ok, so maybe not. You might wanna check my understanding on most of what I say in this thread I started recently, here is the link, dunno how to link back within forum.


----------



## kgb

Ive read through tthe entire post, can someone tell me where to get tree fern where the shipping is not going to be more than the product, thanks.


----------



## Pumilo

kgb said:


> Ive read through tthe entire post, can someone tell me where to get tree fern where the shipping is not going to be more than the product, thanks.


I don't think anybody can beat the source that James has given us.



james67 said:


> treefern/ dicksonia source:
> 
> Tropical Plant Products
> 
> they do NOT accept CC payment. only checks or MO.
> 
> james


----------



## kgb

shipping is more than the product.  Not paying 15 dollar shipping on a 12.99 product...


----------



## Ed

kgb said:


> shipping is more than the product.  Not paying 15 dollar shipping on a 12.99 product...


Would you feel better if you ordered from a company that charged more money for the product and less for the shipping?  


Ed


----------



## Pumilo

kgb said:


> shipping is more than the product.  Not paying 15 dollar shipping on a 12.99 product...



Well put Ed. Tree fern fiber is a bulky item to ship. Shipping will run close to that wherever you try to get it shipped from. Saving $2 on shipping from somewhere else seems pretty ridiculous when you are going to pay 2 or 3 times as much for the product.
You are going to run into the exact same situation when shipping plants, bugs and sometimes even a frog. What matters is the end price, not the fact that shipping is more than the product.


----------



## kgb

Seems it may be more cost effective to buy a premade mix from joshs then to make my own then... I was trying to be more cost effective... but i failed.


----------



## Pumilo

kgb said:


> Seems it may be more cost effective to buy a premade mix from joshs then to make my own then... I was trying to be more cost effective... but i failed.


That's true, unless you are making a very large batch, for multiple vivs, it is more cost effective to go through Josh's frogs.


----------



## Dartolution

Ed said:


> the difference is that you are avoiding the region of the greatest bioactivity of invertebrates by going with the ABG mix... Clay and to a slightly lesser extent provides conditions similar to that found in nature which is unlike the ABG mix. ABG mix is aimed more at the plants while clay and turface are aimed at the frogs...
> ABG mix is deficient in calcium (a limiting nutrient for invertebrates) and results in the microfauna having a much poorer calcium to phosphorus ratio than those found in the wild. Mixing in a small portion of clay or even laterite etc, doesn't modify this sufficiently to benefit the frogs... Frogs when they feed often ingest portions of the soil along with the invertebrates and this can be a significant source of calcium to balance the ratios in the frogs....
> Properly worked clay, provides good conditions for plants as well as the frogs provided you prevent the substrate from water logging.. It takes a little more work but you end up with a substrate that is stable for quite a long time (potentially much more than a decade). Nutrient input occurs when feeding the frogs (including excess supplements) and leaf litter.. and typically is more than sufficient to provide stable plant growth...
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed for the info! I see the distinction now. 
But if I am feeding with dusted flies using repcal or whatever calcium supplement would it still be necessary that the micro fauna also have appropriate levels of calcium and phosphorous? 

Also, what about layering? If I used say 3 inches of clay/turface with an inch or so of ABG? 

Is this acceptable and beneficial?
Or are you suggesting that I just use clay / turface with a top coat of leaf litter? 

Just seeking clarification! You've been such a massive help so far!


----------



## Ed

Dartolution said:


> Thanks Ed for the info! I see the distinction now.
> But if I am feeding with dusted flies using repcal or whatever calcium supplement would it still be necessary that the micro fauna also have appropriate levels of calcium and phosphorous?
> 
> Also, what about layering? If I used say 3 inches of clay/turface with an inch or so of ABG?
> 
> Is this acceptable and beneficial?
> Or are you suggesting that I just use clay / turface with a top coat of leaf litter?
> 
> Just seeking clarification! You've been such a massive help so far!


You really can't do any dusting to change the level of calcium to phosphorus in the invertebrates in the enclosure but some like isopods do have high levels of calcium (due to calcite deposits in the cuticle) and are good. However all of the tested invertebrates so far in the wild with the exception of earthworms in a high calcium substrate have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus ratio. The use of clay helps with that since the frogs can uptake mobile calcium from the substrate (just like they can with water) via thier skin, and when the frogs capture the prey, they ingest substrate with the invertebrate, this is why a high clay substrate helps with the calcium issue, but you still have to provide sufficient D3 to enable the frogs to utilize that calcium. 
Clay is better for this than turface but turface is better than ABG, cocofiber and a number of other substrates since those are all low calcium substrates. 

I use clay and/or turface with the majority of it having no substrate covering it and leaf litter on top with some bare spots so the frogs can access the clay/turface directly. 
If you want to use some ABG to help some plants take off better, then just use it in the planting pockets. I suggest checking out Doug's thread and the Ultimate clay thread. Those address a lot of those questions in detail. 

Ed


----------



## Dartolution

Thanks again for the clarification!


----------



## JPccusa

Ed said:


> the difference is that you are avoiding the region of the greatest bioactivity of invertebrates by going with the ABG mix... Clay and to a slightly lesser extent provides conditions similar to that found in nature which is unlike the ABG mix. ABG mix is aimed more at the plants while clay and turface are aimed at the frogs...
> ABG mix is deficient in calcium (a limiting nutrient for invertebrates) and results in the microfauna having a much poorer calcium to phosphorus ratio than those found in the wild. Mixing in a small portion of clay or even laterite etc, doesn't modify this sufficiently to benefit the frogs... Frogs when they feed often ingest portions of the soil along with the invertebrates and this can be a significant source of calcium to balance the ratios in the frogs....
> Properly worked clay, provides good conditions for plants as well as the frogs provided you prevent the substrate from water logging.. It takes a little more work but you end up with a substrate that is stable for quite a long time (potentially much more than a decade). Nutrient input occurs when feeding the frogs (including excess supplements) and leaf litter.. and typically is more than sufficient to provide stable plant growth...
> 
> Ed





Ed said:


> You really can't do any dusting to change the level of calcium to phosphorus in the invertebrates in the enclosure but some like isopods do have high levels of calcium (due to calcite deposits in the cuticle) and are good. However all of the tested invertebrates so far in the wild with the exception of earthworms in a high calcium substrate have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus ratio. The use of clay helps with that since the frogs can uptake mobile calcium from the substrate (just like they can with water) via thier skin, and when the frogs capture the prey, they ingest substrate with the invertebrate, this is why a high clay substrate helps with the calcium issue, but you still have to provide sufficient D3 to enable the frogs to utilize that calcium.
> Clay is better for this than turface but turface is better than ABG, cocofiber and a number of other substrates since those are all low calcium substrates.
> 
> I use clay and/or turface with the majority of it having no substrate covering it and leaf litter on top with some bare spots so the frogs can access the clay/turface directly.
> If you want to use some ABG to help some plants take off better, then just use it in the planting pockets. I suggest checking out Doug's thread and the Ultimate clay thread. Those address a lot of those questions in detail.
> 
> Ed


When I think I am getting to a final answer on a subject (background, wood, substrate, etc.) I come across threads like this that makes me second guess my recently formed opinion. There are so many choices, and so much reading. Head spins! 

Now going to research "clay substrates" and "D3" (vitamin ) to see if it is something I can easily and cheaply do on my hundred gallons tank.


----------



## Pumilo

JPccusa said:


> When I think I am getting to a final answer on a subject (background, wood, substrate, etc.) I come across threads like this that makes me second guess my recently formed opinion. There are so many choices, and so much reading. Head spins!
> 
> Now going to research "clay substrates" and "D3" (vitamin ) to see if it is something I can easily and cheaply do on my hundred gallons tank.


In my opinion, Clay is best, then Turface, then ABG. For a traditional, "dirt like" substrate, ABG is the best.
Here is where you can start your clay research.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html


----------



## JPccusa

I read the threads and here are my thoughts/observations. Please correct me if I am wrong. 

1) The idea of using a clay substrate is mainly to provide the frogs with calcium and minerals.

2) Clay has good drainage, and microfauna thrives in the layer between the substrate and the leaf litter (which is decomposed very fast).

3) The process is labor intensive but materials are relatively inexpensive

4) Clay can compact/become mud if handled too much

And here are some questions:

A) What if frogs ingest too much calcium? I think Ed mentioned too much of it could be a problem. 

B) Is there any studies that show frogs that live long term on ABG, being fed dusted FFs, still have calcium deficiency? 

C) Is the goal of the clay substrate to do our jobs so we can skip the dusting of the FFs with supplements?


----------



## Ed

JPccusa said:


> I read the threads and here are my thoughts/observations. Please correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> 1) The idea of using a clay substrate is mainly to provide the frogs with calcium and minerals.


No, it is to more closely imitate the normal conditions under which the frogs live. The addition of the calcium etc is secondary. 



JPccusa said:


> 2) Clay has good drainage, and microfauna thrives in the layer between the substrate and the leaf litter (which is decomposed very fast).


Clay only has good drainage if you work the clay as described in the threads. If you place a solid layer of clay into the tank, it will drain poorly. 



JPccusa said:


> 3) The process is labor intensive but materials are relatively inexpensive


Level of labor depends on how you mix it. I use a concrete stirrer on a large hammer drill. I make it a slurry, filter it through newspaper and let it stabilize when I break it up and pass it through a screen. Not much in the way of labor particularly since it will be stable potentially for a decade or more while ABG mixes will break down over time (it is not stable since it is all organics that can decompose). 



JPccusa said:


> 4) Clay can compact/become mud if handled too much


Clay will compact if you push the clumps together after it is moistened. Handled/working it does not automatically compact the clay (in fact it can do the exact opposite). Once it is in the tank, it is stable unless you mush it all together, or did not work the clay as described in the appropriate threads. 



JPccusa said:


> And here are some questions:
> 
> A) What if frogs ingest too much calcium? I think Ed mentioned too much of it could be a problem.


Unlikely since the majority of it's diet is going to be dusted insects and many of those will be above the surface of the clay. 



JPccusa said:


> B) Is there any studies that show frogs that live long term on ABG, being fed dusted FFs, still have calcium deficiency?


Not on ABG specifically but there are studies out there that document decreased calcification of the skeleton. This is due to insufficient D3 in the frogs. 



JPccusa said:


> C) Is the goal of the clay substrate to do our jobs so we can skip the dusting of the FFs with supplements?


Absolutely not, see my response to #1. 

Ed


----------



## purplezephead

Ed you mention lack of D3; do you believe that these frogs should be given UV lighting? From what I've read and been told they don't need it (as the dense forest canopy filters out uv rays-again this is what I've read). I have daylight spectrum bulbs from home depot on my terrariums, would you recommend changing them to something like reptisun? I don't want to lose a frog early b/c I was being cheap.


----------



## Ed

purplezephead said:


> Ed you mention lack of D3; do you believe that these frogs should be given UV lighting? From what I've read and been told they don't need it (as the dense forest canopy filters out uv rays-again this is what I've read). I have daylight spectrum bulbs from home depot on my terrariums, would you recommend changing them to something like reptisun? I don't want to lose a frog early b/c I was being cheap.


 
People often think that many of the species of dendrobatids are associated with heavy canopy but often many of them are found in areas of disturbance where the canopy is broken allowing light to penetrate.. 

See the discussion here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/73268-uvb-exposure-dendrobates.html 

Ed


----------



## JPccusa

Whew! Good to read that oral supplementation of vitamin D3 is enough. 

You guys are awesome and you do a great service to the betterment of this hobby. THANK YOU!


----------



## Saurian

If u dont mind elaborating on the brand names of the stuff u get at lowes. I been doing this for a while but never made my own substrate and kind of paranoid about messing up. Is it the spagnum peat moss or something else? U get the orchid bark at petsmart cause its the same as repti-bark right? thanks guys


----------



## cbreon

I have been using a similar abg to the one listed at the beginning of this thread for years and I have had pretty good resuts. Within the last year I have been adding two parts turface to the mix and I have liked the results. The new abg does seem to get better drainage, it seems to promote good microfauna populations, and plants seem to like it as well. Although, I do have to add a little loose sphagnum for the plants that like things a little wetter. I cant speak to the science behind the addition of the turface, and I had discussed this with Ed before and the thought was this would not be as good as a calcium enriched clay, but I do like this mix so far. 

Anyone have any opinions on adding turface to ABG?


----------



## JPccusa

cbreon said:


> Anyone have any opinions on adding turface to ABG?


I have done it on my tank. I mixed turface to the ABG, but I also have a layer of turface only between the ABG and the weed barrier/screen. Some areas I left without ABG so frogs have direct contact with the turface layer. It is too soon for me to know if my plants like it, but I certainly hope so. 

Just a piece of advice for everyone trying the turface method - wash it VERY WELL before using in your tank. I got the red variety and it comes coated with a red powder that washes off.


----------



## Scott

I've moved 9 posts that were better suited to the http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html thread than this one.

Discuss advantages/disadvantages to ABG here - but do not get in to specifics on other substrate ingredients here please.

s


----------



## magalhaestiago

Hello,

Newbie here. I'm from Portugal, and I have some trouble finding the tree fern fiber. I have tried local orchid suppliers, garden centers, etc without success. I looked online but the few places that ship to Portugal are really expensive. I was wondering if I can use the exo terra tree fern substrate as de tree fern fiber source in the ABG recipe?

Thanks


----------



## Adogowo

Post number 8 says to substitute coco fiber for tree fern.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## scoy

Adogowo said:


> Post number 8 says to substitute coco fiber for tree fern.
> 
> Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk


Yes and then a few post down that is debunked. Coco fiber is not a substitute for tree fern. You would need something that wont compact like coco.


----------



## Adogowo

That's what I get for not reading the whole thread lol thanks for the correction

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Dendro Dave

scoy said:


> Yes and then a few post down that is debunked. Coco fiber is not a substitute for tree fern. You would need something that wont compact like coco.


If you're referring to the post by Pumilo in that thread, he offers an opinion, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he debunked it (but he is a smart guy so his opinion is worth noting for sure). 

I can confirm based on personal experience that if you substituted coco chunks for tree fern in the formula, it will work just fine. The tree fern discussed is also the loose kind, not the panels/tiles... though you could break some of those up and get the same product. I assume the treefern is there because it holds up well and the little sticks poking all sorts of directions help aerate the soil.

Coco chunks are irregularly shaped, hold up fairly well over time like tree fern, and both probably contribute something beneficial as they break down. I'm not aware of any magical nutrient that the treefern adds to the soil that makes it necessary component, but maybe there is something like that. 

I don't know if it as ideal as treefern, but I can tell you it will absolutely work fine... heck peatmoss and coco chunks alone work relatively well.

This old thread shows my 75gal which had a substrate mainly of coco chunks, and that tank lasted for years. Actually all I'd have to do to start it back up is add water and new plants. It weighs a ton though and I'm not sure if I wanna leave it there, or how I wanna remodel it yet, so I'm waiting to before I start it back up.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/36787-evolution-75-gallon.html

Basically I've made several variations of ABG over the years and they all worked, some are better then others though as far as how fast they break down and how well they drain. All I'm saying is don't panic if you can't find some treefern.


----------



## scoy

Coco chunks compared to coco fiber is a totally different ball game.


----------



## Dendro Dave

scoy said:


> Coco chunks compared to coco fiber is a totally different ball game.


That's why I underlined "chunks". The mix would still work well with shredded coco fiber though. I wouldn't use the ground coco fiber which has nearly the same consistency of peat moss. Coco comes in lots of forms. Well actually you could probably substitute that for the milled peat, or do half and half and still get something that works well.


----------



## scoy

Yeah I wouldnt hesitate to subsitute coco fiber for peat. I just dont think its comparable to tree fern. But like you said and others have pointed out its not the end of the world if you cant find an ingredient or you subsitute. Heck I hardly use abg at all, some of my vivs are nothing but turface and leaf litter.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I'm moving to more inorganic substrates too. With the complicated plumbing and waterscapes I wanna do in vivs it just makes sense using something with less tannins.


----------



## Ed

One of the things I've found over time is that the dissolved mineral content in the ground cocohusk can vary pretty significantly. As a result, I saturated it with RO water and then drain it and repeat. This has varied a lot from batch to batch but the worst batches if you let sit a couple of days, you got salt deposits on the high evaporation points in the media. 

I've pretty much moved to inorganic substrates with small pockets of organic material and leaf litter. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## Old_Trekee

What inorganic substrates are you using? I'm planning a 36x24x36 paludarium and would like less tannins as well.

Thanks for all your help.

Frank


----------



## scoy

I use turface mvp


----------



## Dendro Dave

Old_Trekee said:


> What inorganic substrates are you using? I'm planning a 36x24x36 paludarium and would like less tannins as well.
> 
> Thanks for all your help.
> 
> Frank


Well actually I'll probably throw some long fiber sphagnum in which is organic, but then use leca, and/or fine lava rock, maybe some sand. Another organic component might be a little bit of coir or tree fern fiber. Then some Turface and/or some kinda clay planted aquarium substrate. I think petco/petsmart has like a 10 pound bag of some planted aquarium substrate with live bacteria in it, and I've used that in a couple of vivs as part of my soil mix. 

The sphag and tree fern I don't think leach many tannins so they're ok IMO, but one thing to stay away from might be anything with "lite" at the end of its name. I've always heard Vermiculite and Perlite were to be avoided in vivs, but I'm not sure of the danger... If any. I just avoid them to be safe. 

This place allows you to do custom soil mixes....
Custom Potting Soil - SelectABlend by rePotme


----------



## InvertaHerp

So straight turface is a good substrate for both plants and frogs? Can you mix it with abg? Or NEherp gives the option to mix clay with ABG or NEherp substrate, wouldn't that be a great mix too?


----------



## scoy

Most the plants I've used have done great in turface and usually its covered by leaf litter so the frogs dont come in contact with it. Even if they do theyll be fine. I also have made small areas usually an exposed corner with clay in vivs that had abg but have never actually mixed the two. I think I read mixing the two lessenes there life.


----------



## Sarbarbearian

Forgive me if this has been brought up somewhere else but I have a couple questions. I just started making my own ABG mix and the tree fern fiber is the "small" kind but before adding the peat moss everything looks so chunky and not at all like Josh's frogs? Did I order the wrong kind of tree fern? Also is there an easier way to chop up the charcoal cause so far everything ends up with black dust everywhere? I put it in a towel and just smash it but that stuff is brutal.


----------



## JPP

Sarbarbearian said:


> Forgive me if this has been brought up somewhere else but I have a couple questions. I just started making my own ABG mix and the tree fern fiber is the "small" kind but before adding the peat moss everything looks so chunky and not at all like Josh's frogs?


Josh's Frogs "ABG" mix doesn't have tree fern in it. Technically, its not quite "true" abg mix.


----------



## Dendro Dave

JPP said:


> Josh's Frogs "ABG" mix doesn't have tree fern in it. Technically, its not quite "true" abg mix.


The treefern is mostly in there as a natural way to help the soil stay airated, and they use their false bottom product in place of it I believe. Tree fern eventually breaks down so in the long run Joeh's solution is probably just as good if not better... IMHO ..but you are correct


----------



## hydrophyte

In my experience, the milled tree fern really is important. I tried making some similar blends without the tree fern and they just didn't have very good drainage. I think that water follows those elongated tree fern fiber particles. 

You should get the milled tree fern and horticultural charcoal from GlassBoxTropicals.com...

http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/terrariumsubstrates/fine-charcoal-1-gal-horticultural-grade

http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/terrariumsubstrates/1-gallon-fine-tree-fern-fiber

Their prices and shipping really aren't all that costly. This is a lot smarter and easier than messing around with the wrong kinds of material.

I think it's a good idea to add extra charcoal. This is the one ingredient that really won't decompose over time and if there is a lot of it it will extend the life of your substrate. 

You _can_ find it easily at any garden center, but they also have 1-gallon portion bags of milled sphagnum peat...

http://www.glassboxtropicals.com/products/suppliesdecor/terrariumsubstrates/milled-sphagnum-peat-moss

I think it's a good idea to also add a certain percentage of Turface gravel to an ABG style mix.


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## jarteta97

Since tree fern fiber breaks down, wouldn't it be simple and cheap to simply pour some more of the fibers into the mix to replace the decomposed fibers? 

Sent from my SPH-L720T using Tapatalk


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## hydrophyte

Ed said:


> One of the things I've found over time is that the dissolved mineral content in the ground cocohusk can vary pretty significantly. As a result, I saturated it with RO water and then drain it and repeat. This has varied a lot from batch to batch but the worst batches if you let sit a couple of days, you got salt deposits on the high evaporation points in the media.
> 
> I've pretty much moved to inorganic substrates with small pockets of organic material and leaf litter.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


This is what I have been doing as well. The organic components in regular ABG mix are bound to just decompose over time. I have had a couple of setups with ABG that were kept rather moist and they developed a really unpleasant odor and compromised drainage. 

Here is one mix that I have used with good results:


2 parts 1/4" expanded shale (http://www.amazon.com/Soil-Mender-Expanded-Shale-lb/dp/B00AAJ214E
2 parts Turface Pro League
1 part 1/4" horticultural charcoal
It wouldn't hurt to also add just a little bit of tree fern fiber or sphagnum peat to this mix. I would not include bark or shredded sphagnum with it.

This mix is rather heavy (the charcoal reduces the weight a bit) so I use it in a layer 1" deep over another 1" layer of coarse screened perlite. Occasionaly pieces of the bright white perlite will find their way to the top, but it's not hard to pick them out. 

That 40 lb. bag of expanded shale is super cheap. So is the Turface.


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## Dendro Dave

All that sounds good Hydrophyte 

I keep meaning to see if our local tractor supply has turface.I think I remember seeing 50lb bags there once, years back... But in the mean time, what I did recently was add coco chunks and Cyprus mulch. Those big bags at Petco/pet smart and some eco compete aquarium substrate with the "good bacteria" or whatever to my AGB mix.

Eventually it will break down, but the Cyprus mulch should last awhile and work similar in the mix as tree fern fiber (some of my bags of agb had tree fern, others had the Josh's frogs false bottom material)... So basically I'm calling mine the "kitchen sink mix" ...because there is some of practically everything (including some crushed up leaf litter) 

Since I make my ponds to share the false bottom water: I think I'll try to pour some activated charcoal in the false bottom behind the shoreline barrier. That way it removes the tannins but since it isn't in the soil, it isn't sucking up nutrients. I think there will still be plenty left for any pond plants, but water won't be so tea stained. Installing a pump in the false bottom to circulate water around the activited charcoal. Seems to help it work better/faster. I filled old socks with the charcoal and used a small pump to force water through to clear up the pond I did in a Hex years ago.


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## DJMattz0r

hydrophyte said:


> This is what I have been doing as well. The organic components in regular ABG mix are bound to just decompose over time. I have had a couple of setups with ABG that were kept rather moist and they developed a really unpleasant odor and compromised drainage.
> 
> Here is one mix that I have used with good results:
> 
> 
> 2 parts 1/4" expanded shale (http://www.amazon.com/Soil-Mender-Expanded-Shale-lb/dp/B00AAJ214E
> 2 parts Turface Pro League
> 1 part 1/4" horticultural charcoal
> It wouldn't hurt to also add just a little bit of tree fern fiber or sphagnum peat to this mix. I would not include bark or shredded sphagnum with it.
> 
> This mix is rather heavy (the charcoal reduces the weight a bit) so I use it in a layer 1" deep over another 1" layer of coarse screened perlite. Occasionaly pieces of the bright white perlite will find their way to the top, but it's not hard to pick them out.
> 
> That 40 lb. bag of expanded shale is super cheap. So is the Turface.



I am very excited to read about this as I have Turface and expanded shale on hand at the greenhouse since they're great for adding drainage to soil. Going to try this mix out for my next tank, do you also use a false bottom in addition to the perlite layer? I am thinking of using pumice or hydroton to prevent floating up to the surface.


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## hydrophyte

DJMattz0r said:


> I am very excited to read about this as I have Turface and expanded shale on hand at the greenhouse since they're great for adding drainage to soil. Going to try this mix out for my next tank, do you also use a false bottom in addition to the perlite layer? I am thinking of using pumice or hydroton to prevent floating up to the surface.


Yes I use a false bottom under the perlite. I think this might be pretty important to maintain an air layer under the substrate.


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## Encyclia

Dendro Dave said:


> All that sounds good Hydrophyte
> 
> I keep meaning to see if our local tractor supply has turface.I think I remember seeing 50lb bags there once, years back... But in the mean time, what I did recently was add coco chunks and Cyprus mulch. Those big bags at Petco/pet smart and some eco compete aquarium substrate with the "good bacteria" or whatever to my AGB mix.
> 
> Eventually it will break down, but the Cyprus mulch should last awhile and work similar in the mix as tree fern fiber (some of my bags of agb had tree fern, others had the Josh's frogs false bottom material)... So basically I'm calling mine the "kitchen sink mix" ...because there is some of practically everything (including some crushed up leaf litter)
> 
> Since I make my ponds to share the false bottom water: I think I'll try to pour some activated charcoal in the false bottom behind the shoreline barrier. That way it removes the tannins but since it isn't in the soil, it isn't sucking up nutrients. I think there will still be plenty left for any pond plants, but water won't be so tea stained. Installing a pump in the false bottom to circulate water around the activited charcoal. Seems to help it work better/faster. I filled old socks with the charcoal and used a small pump to force water through to clear up the pond I did in a Hex years ago.


Turface: I got mine at John Deere Landscaping. They didn't have it in stock but they transferred some from another store for me and didn't charge any extra. Turface can be used straight, with no other fillers, with a leaf litter layer and my plants seem to really like it. It's much easier than having to mix stuff and you don't have to worry about heavier components settling to the bottom over time. 

Activated carbon: I don't recommend it unless you provide a mechanism to replace it frequently (up to monthly). The pores in the carbon will clog quickly and you will just be left with little, expensive rocks. If you have a little sleeve of it that you can access easily and replace, that might work, but is not necessary, in my experience. You would be better off providing a good drainage location like a bulkhead or siphon location and replacing the water periodically.

That's just my experience. Your mileage may vary.

Mark


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## Dendro Dave

Encyclia said:


> Turface: I got mine at John Deere Landscaping. They didn't have it in stock but they transferred some from another store for me and didn't charge any extra. Turface can be used straight, with no other fillers, with a leaf litter layer and my plants seem to really like it. It's much easier than having to mix stuff and you don't have to worry about heavier components settling to the bottom over time.
> 
> Activated carbon: I don't recommend it unless you provide a mechanism to replace it frequently (up to monthly). The pores in the carbon will clog quickly and you will just be left with little, expensive rocks. If you have a little sleeve of it that you can access easily and replace, that might work, but is not necessary, in my experience. You would be better off providing a good drainage location like a bulkhead or siphon location and replacing the water periodically.
> 
> That's just my experience. Your mileage may vary.
> 
> Mark


Ya if I get off.my butt and run errands today I may check flthe tractor supply for it. There is also an atwoods in town that my have it if it isn't out of business.

The activated charcoal was just to put in the actual water of the false bottom to clear up the tannins if I go with a more organic blend, if I can't find turface locally. As a soil amendment I'd go with the horticultural charcoal instead.


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## [email protected]

When you say "fine charcoal" could capsules of powdered "activated charcoal" be emptied and used as a substitute ?


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## hydrophyte

I wouldn't recommend using either activated carbon or horticultural charcoal for removing impurities. This effect wears off very fast.

Use the horiticultural charcoal instead because it is light in weight, dark in color and does not decompose like the other ingredients. I think it's a good idea to add lots of extra charcoal to ABG mix. The substrate will last longer and maintain better drainage if you do this.


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## Azurel

I have been using a 70/30 mix of Turface MVP and organic sphagnum peat for years....One thing I will recommend is soaking the turface mix before putting in the tank....

It takes quite awhile for it to absorb water to where it will help keep humidity up....I always do this now....A couple builds ago I bypassed that step and the humidity was consistently low so I had to mist more often....When you soak it first it really helps hold up humidity but still has the excellent drainage...
Turface is really hard to beat as a substrate....

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk


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## WesJ

frogboy said:


> The truth is...it just plain ROCKS!! This ABG Mix is 8 years old! It was in my salamander viv. It was kept even wetter than a dart frog viv. Totally closed top, no vents, with a fourth of the viv being a pond. A waterfall leaked all over it for many years.
> I found a new home for my salamander and we are tearing his viv down. My dad (Pumilo) said it was going to be rotted and stinky when we dug into it. We churned it up and guess what? It smells fresh and clean! Like it was just put in! Dad said to point out all the air pockets you can still see in there. That's how it gets such good drainage! He said it's still perfectly good but we can't reuse it anyway because of germs.
> It was developed at Atlanta Botanical Garden (thus the name, ABG Mix)
> 
> Here is how you make ABG Mix. My dad helped me make sure the recipe was right.
> 
> 1 part milled peat
> 
> 1 part milled sphagnum moss
> 
> 1 part fine charcoal (We usually at least double this)
> 
> 2 parts fine tree fern fiber
> 
> 2 parts fine orchid bark
> 
> Here are a couple threads about ABG
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...fused-about-couple-substrate-ingrediants.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/62607-what-substrate.html


Hey, I'm going for an ABG mix myself because it sounds amazing.
I was wondering if it's possible to replace the orchid bark (For something else than orchid mix because I can't get either of them here). I do have acces to all the Zoomed, ExoTerra and LuckyReptile products, do you know of any of them have replace-able products? (I use Zoomed Reptibark as tree fern fiber replacement).


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## Timbow

WesJ said:


> Hey, I'm going for an ABG mix myself because it sounds amazing.
> I was wondering if it's possible to replace the orchid bark (For something else than orchid mix because I can't get either of them here). I do have acces to all the Zoomed, ExoTerra and LuckyReptile products, do you know of any of them have replace-able products? (I use Zoomed Reptibark as tree fern fiber replacement).


The reptibark is a good alternative to orchid bark, but not tree fern fiber. You can use expanded glass in place of the tree fern if you can't get it.


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## wcarterh

Would ground limestone (calcium carbonate) not be a viable substitute here instead of adding clay? Dolomite may add manesium, while gypsum may add sulfur. Both of which could be unwanted. Limestone (NOT quicklime) is readily available at many garden centers and large box stores at a very low cost. It would also remove any issue and work that would be required by the post already linked to clay substrate.


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## Ed

wcarterh said:


> Would ground limestone (calcium carbonate) not be a viable substitute here instead of adding clay? Dolomite may add manesium, while gypsum may add sulfur. Both of which could be unwanted. Limestone (NOT quicklime) is readily available at many garden centers and large box stores at a very low cost. It would also remove any issue and work that would be required by the post already linked to clay substrate.


No, not really. Limestone by itself is not stable in an environment where your going to have a constant influx of humid acids. It can also raise the pH too high. There are reasons (given in the clay threads) on why clay is the better choice. 

Accept no substitions. 

some comments 

Ed


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## wcarterh

Gotcha. I've been working my way through the clay substrate, but apparently haven't gotten far enough. Thanks Ed. That will help me to find what I need.


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## SoloSK71

Has anyone tried this product?

https://acadiansupply.com/2018/07/10/sustainably-sourced-tree-fern-launched-in-usa/

Solo


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## JPP

SoloSK71 said:


> Has anyone tried this product?
> 
> https://acadiansupply.com/2018/07/10/sustainably-sourced-tree-fern-launched-in-usa/
> 
> Solo


The New Zealand tree fern is soft, quite porous, and moisture retentive...rather opposite of the qualities of the South American tree fern that ABG mix uses.


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## Mark Carden

Josh’s Frogs has tree fern fiber. 10 quarts for $14.99. I made my own mix.


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## SoloSK71

My question is whether it is sustainably sourced?

Solo


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## Socratic Monologue

Looking at Josh's Frogs website indicates that they carry Fernwood fiber, so yes, it is sustainably sourced. It is the product you linked to, Solo.


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## SoloSK71

Socratic Monologue said:


> Looking at Josh's Frogs website indicates that they carry Fernwood fiber, so yes, it is sustainably sourced. It is the product you linked to, Solo.


:facepalm:

Solo


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