# Tinctorus losing function of front or back legs



## uwiik (Jun 29, 2018)

Hi all, 
Started this fascinating hobby with misleading information from a friend that made it sounds like PDF keeping is the easiest thing to do that later proofed to be dead wrong. I managed to struggle through the hobby and learned the hard way through sudden death, seizures, STS, etc to keep them alive, growing and most has started calling already that now I can confidently say that I have good knowledge on how to administer metronidazole, panacur and baytril to cure any parasitic or bacterial infection, I even own my own microscope to do fecal inspection to the best of my ability, I own tropical fish export company so I have access to all medicines and basic laboratory equipment.

Now I have problem that started to surface only recently with some tinctorus (azureus and citronella), they managed to grow from juvenile to adulthood (4 mo old juvs when I bought them in September 2017) but recently two of my azureus and one of my citronella almost completely lost the function of the front leg and one lost the function of back leg. The legs would appear flacid and limping when the frogs are moving, one was severe that the frog had to drag the body just to move, they all still fat and still eating foraciously but it's just sad seeing them moving that way struggling all the time. With the absence of exotic pet vet in the country I have nobody to relly to but this forum. 

What could be the cause of the limping legs? Definitely not SLS because they all very healthy and strong from juvenile to adulthood, problem only surfaced after they are adult. I have been feeding FF dusted with exoterra multivitamin and exoterra calcium. I know they are not the best one but Exoterra is the only brand readily available in the country, due to this problem I went as far as applying for special import permit to the government and just got it last week (took me 5 months to get the permit) to be able to buy Repashy and Reptical from the US (importing anything even for personal use is real tough here in Indonesia) and these supplements are on the way from US to me right now. 

I have bought a human grade vitamin A supplement and will try dusting the FF one a week for the limping ones and once a month for the healthy ones. Can anybody shine a light to my problem please. 

TIA guys and gals!!


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## connorp (Nov 22, 2017)

It sounds like a vitamin A deficiency. Dart frogs cannot efficiently process beta carotene as a source of vitamin A, and the Exoterra multivitamin contains beta carotene as the only vitamin A source according to their website. As for the human grade vitamin A supplement, I'm unfamiliar with it's use on dart frogs. All I can say is I would be careful and make sure not to dose too heavily (how ever much that may be) as it's likely potent.


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## uwiik (Jun 29, 2018)

connorp said:


> It sounds like a vitamin A deficiency. Dart frogs cannot efficiently process beta carotene as a source of vitamin A, and the Exoterra multivitamin contains beta carotene as the only vitamin A source according to their website. As for the human grade vitamin A supplement, I'm unfamiliar with it's use on dart frogs. All I can say is I would be careful and make sure not to dose too heavily (how ever much that may be) as it's likely potent.


Thanks so much for the information. I have suspected Vitamin A but I also wasn't too sure about calcium, so far I have been supplementing calcium with biweekly drop on the back with 10% Calcium gluconate solution and it seems to do the job because since I do that I just never get a frog with seizures or sudden death, in the past I killed about 4 frogs for seizures and sudden death typical of calcium deficiency. Good to get confirmation from somebody more experienced that this problem is most likely Vitamin A deficiency...What is the chance the affected frogs can make full recovery with proper nutrition? 

The human grade Vitamin A is Blackmores brand, main ingredient is Retinol and as far as I know Retinol is the correct supplement for Vitamin A in PDF and I was planning to grind to powder and dust the FF once a week for the problem frogs and once a month for the still healthy frogs, I was thinking about 20 dusted FF per dose and yes just like any other Blackmores product it is extremely potent at 5000IU/1.5mg Retinol per tablet. All of the frogs are easy to target feed, all on separate 4 gal containers right now because I tore down all the vivariums for sterilization and complete ground up rebuild, old design was typical beginner mistake vivariums with ponds, waterfall and whatnot making it unhealthy. 

Any suggestions?

TIA guys and gals!!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

You have had some scary experiences with your frogs. It have to do with supplementation. I don't know anything about Exoterra supplements, but many supplements on the market are designed with reptiles in mind. Repashy supplements have always worked for me and I don't have any of the issues you have described. I would suggest dusting with Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding then using Repashy Vitamin A about every 2 to 3 weeks. I would use Repashy, even if you have to import it. Make sure you keep the supplements in the refrigerator and discard any remaining and buy again after 6 months. I don't think you will have any trouble with nutrient imbalances if you follow this. If you continue to try to supplement one nutrient at a time using stuff that isn't designed for frogs, I don't think there is any way to make sure that you keep everything balanced (if you are dosing vitamin A from pills, you probably aren't dusting all of the other vitamins that need to be in the frog's diet). 

Best of luck!

Mark


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## uwiik (Jun 29, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> You have had some scary experiences with your frogs. It have to do with supplementation. I don't know anything about Exoterra supplements, but many supplements on the market are designed with reptiles in mind. Repashy supplements have always worked for me and I don't have any of the issues you have described. I would suggest dusting with Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding then using Repashy Vitamin A about every 2 to 3 weeks. I would use Repashy, even if you have to import it. Make sure you keep the supplements in the refrigerator and discard any remaining and buy again after 6 months. I don't think you will have any trouble with nutrient imbalances if you follow this. If you continue to try to supplement one nutrient at a time using stuff that isn't designed for frogs, I don't think there is any way to make sure that you keep everything balanced (if you are dosing vitamin A from pills, you probably aren't dusting all of the other vitamins that need to be in the frog's diet).
> 
> Best of luck!
> 
> Mark


Thanks for the feedback. It was some scary experience indeed, I never knew that simple frogs can have such a specific diet and failure to follow strict regime can have such a devastating effect, it was extremely upsetting to see a frog that was all happy and friendly one second only to see it dead the second after. Fortunately I like challenge and that's what motivated me. 

I totally agree with you on the vitamin A, I am only using the human grade vitamin A to avoid further decline before Repashy arrive. Would you suggest weekly/biweekly for the problem frogs? 

Thanks

Dwi


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Glad to hear you have Repashy on order. It will get a lot simpler once you get your supplementation and food supply dialed in. I would do every 2 weeks for Vitamin A, mostly because I don't like to NOT be dosing with Calcium Plus and I don't like to mix them in a single feeding.

Mark


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## alsofaac (Aug 21, 2013)

Why not mix them? A good mineral/multivtamin would have both.


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## uwiik (Jun 29, 2018)

I would like to thank everyone who contributed in identifying my problem. It is amazing how quickly my frogs showing improvement after a single dose of human grade retinol based vitamin A dusted on FF. One has even started jumping a bit. Very very happy and hoping for the best!!! Thanks everyone!!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

alsofaac said:


> Why not mix them? A good mineral/multivtamin would have both.


It's difficult to control how much of each sticks to the flies. The number of flies 
and the amount of each powder I shake out each time varies quite a bit. Much easier to rotate them and get closer to having the same amount stick to the flies each time. It isn't perfect, but a little better than if I mixed them. 

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vitamin A deficiency does not present with limb paralysis... that does not fit the disease profile in any taxa. The addition of vitamin A isn't solving this... it is likely to be an issue with B vitamins or E, or calcium or D3 or phosphorus than it is to develop a new symptoms from vitamin A deficiency... 


Too often people without any reason jump to the popular problem with the animals as a catch all for any issues. Vitamin A causes changes to the mucous producing cells (aka short tongue syndrome or more properly squamous metaplasia from vitamin A deficiency and not other causes), disruption of fertility, improper development of the egg/tadpole before hatching (bloated tadpoles in the egg, sudden ceasing of development and death of the egg), spindly leg, and decreased function of the immune system. It has not been shown despite many reported cases to cause limb paralysis.... 

If the supplements are kept without refrigeration and exposed to heat and humidity, the B vitamins are often the first to degrade (although everyone focuses on the fat soluble vitamins) and the loss of those vitamins depending on which are most affected can cause a lot of issues with the animals, which depending on the vitamin in question, a lot of different symptoms... Only a small amount should be kept out of the refrigerator at a time, and you want the freshest supplement with the least exposure to heat, light and/or humidity. 

some comments 

Ed


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## sacha16 (Mar 20, 2017)

Hi,

sorry to revive this old post.

I'm getting 2 frogs from a friend. One of them looks like having trouble using her back legs.

Do you think its same case as the post in OP?

If so, do you think it can be cured by buying new repashy supplements and store them properly? He doesn't keep it the refridgerator and they are not new. His other frog is fine.

I attach videos of the frog.

https://youtu.be/Jwm7Br-Z0ro

https://youtu.be/OiQhmJpKuvQ

Thank you for the help.

EDIT:

i know the frog is fat, i'll cut down the food with time.


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