# Unexpected frogger



## Coffeebeans (Jan 10, 2014)

Hi everyone-

I recently got into frogging through some strange, sad circumstances. I have an older friend who recently went out of remission from Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma- and he gave me his vivarium to take care of while he lives out of state for treatment. Unfortunately his doctor caught it too late, and yesterday he was given a year to live. The lymphoma has spread to his liver and lungs, and it isn't looking very good for him. Without sounding pessimistic or hopeless, I'm planning on being with these frogs for the long run. I've had the vivarium in my possession for about two days.

Basically, I would really appreciate if I could get a crash course in frog keeping. Here's what I know about the vivarium and the frogs:

-I'm currently keeping four cobalt tincs. 
-They are housed in a very attractively decorated 30-gallon tank with a tight glass hood. 
-I've fed them hydei fruit flies once. They ate very well. 
-Humidity in the tank is very good (no hygrometer, but the frogs are active and it is wet in there) and temperature stays about 70-75, going to 68 at night. 
-The tank is lit by a T5 fixture with a ~500nm and 760nm bulb. Its in a 12 hour night/day cycle.
-It has a zoo-med ReptiRain automatic mister. I recently filled it with RO/DI water.
-The vivarium has a false bottom. 

There is a lot of bromeliads, flat rocks, and driftwood. According to my friend, the frogs are about 8 months old. The vivarium has been set up since about April or May. He obtained the juvenile frogs from a local breeder (unfortunately, I don't have the breeder's contact information.) 

I've kept freshwater tropical fish for about seven years, so I like to think I have experience keeping animals and plants in glass boxes. I enjoy keeping bromeliads, so I know how to keep the plants around. I've been frantically reading articles around the internet and posts on this forum to try and get information quickly. The aquarium store near me (Blue Fish Aquarium in Grandville, MI) has a very good reptile and frog section. I call them with questions a lot. Here are a few questions I have for you guys:

What is the best way to culture hydei flies? I have a single culture I bought from Blue Fish yesterday, and I want to establish a few. I've been looking up recipes online, but what do you guys think is best?

What should I be looking for in a healthy, happy frog? If I'm going to be taking care of these frogs, I'm going to be doing it right. So far they are active and not afraid of me. The four tincs act curious whenever I come around. They eat very well, and definitely aren't skinny.

There's a lot of poop on the rocks and driftwood (my friend kind of neglected the vivarium for a week or so, understandable given the circumstances.) Can I just take these out and knock the frog turds into the trash?

How the heck do I clean the vivarium without traumatizing the frogs and outright replacing all the substrate?

Any other things I should be doing? Anything I'm doing wrong so far?

Thank you so much for your help in advance. I acquired these frogs through a terrible situation, but I aim to make the best of it. I'm excited to be taking care of them.


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

Ok so to answer a few of your questions, a healthy frog should be fat and moist as well as active. Instead of taking out the rocks I would advise you to get some springtails, tiny bugs that will clean your Viv of bacteria. You don't need to change the substrate very often also.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Coffeebeans said:


> Hi everyone-
> 
> I recently got into frogging through some strange, sad circumstances. I have an older friend who recently went out of remission from Non-Hodgkin Lymphoma- and he gave me his vivarium to take care of while he lives out of state for treatment. Unfortunately his doctor caught it too late, and yesterday he was given a year to live. The lymphoma has spread to his liver and lungs, and it isn't looking very good for him. Without sounding pessimistic or hopeless, I'm planning on being with these frogs for the long run. I've had the vivarium in my possession for about two days.
> 
> ...


First of all, welcome. It seems like you are off to a good start as you know more about the system and the frogs than many people who buy frogs impulsively. 



Coffeebeans said:


> Here are a few questions I have for you guys:
> 
> What is the best way to culture hydei flies? I have a single culture I bought from Blue Fish yesterday, and I want to establish a few. I've been looking up recipes online, but what do you guys think is best?


There are many media that you can make/buy, so you won't get a straight answer on that. You also won't get a straight answer about excelsior vs. coffee filters vs. plastic mesh, etc. 
My suggestion, try a media and a method and see how you like it. 
Hydei flies have longer life cycles than melanogaster flies. Mels are more prolific and that's one of the reasons why I give preference to them. Something to consider. 
This is a good thread for beginners albeit a little outdated: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/18630-fruit-fly-culturing-mini-howto.html



Coffeebeans said:


> What should I be looking for in a healthy, happy frog? If I'm going to be taking care of these frogs, I'm going to be doing it right. So far they are active and not afraid of me. The four tincs act curious whenever I come around. They eat very well, and definitely aren't skinny.


Their poop should not be runny, their skin should not have lesions, they should be active, eat well, etc. 
It would be advisable for you to perform fecal tests for diseases. 
Take a look at the stickies in these subforum: General Health & Disease Treatment - Dendroboard



Coffeebeans said:


> There's a lot of poop on the rocks and driftwood (my friend kind of neglected the vivarium for a week or so, understandable given the circumstances.) Can I just take these out and knock the frog turds into the trash?
> 
> How the heck do I clean the vivarium without traumatizing the frogs and outright replacing all the substrate?


Do not worry about cleaning the viv. That's why, like in marine aquariums, we have a cleaning crew for the tanks. Isopods are great for that task, but they will also be helped by mites (which are also food source for the frogs), nematodes, etc.
Take a look at this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/66991-how-culture-isopods-woodlice-springtails.html



Coffeebeans said:


> Any other things I should be doing? Anything I'm doing wrong so far?
> 
> Thank you so much for your help in advance. I acquired these frogs through a terrible situation, but I aim to make the best of it. I'm excited to be taking care of them.


You did not mention vitamin supplementation. Make sure the flies are dusted with vitamins every time you feed. Depending on the tank setup and some other factors, the frequency of feeding will vary. See this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/90878-feeding-frequency.html#post803234

You also did not mention leaf litter on top of the substrate. Make sure there is plenty of that and make sure to use a frog-friendly type of leaf litter. 

Can't think of anything else you are doing that could be wrong. Make sure to post pictures of the setup and the frogs when you have a chance.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Take advantage of the library in the forum section specifically for beginners--a huge wealth of info...and people with the same questions you may be asking. Sorry about your friend...perhaps taking pictures of the person's frogs may give comfort that the critters are in good hands and the choice was the correct one. Good luck...keep us posted.


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## Urban Jungle (Oct 10, 2013)

Hello and welcome. It sounds like you have a great start . In addition to the other member suggestions I would suggest you add some sort of a breeding hut. They will become familiar with it in their enclosure and it will be there when they are old enough to breed. Also is there any type of drainage in your viv? If not you might want to drill the glass or add access to the bottom somewhere so you can siphon or turkey baste the old water. You might also consider adding some type of ventilation/fan.


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## jpm995 (Sep 15, 2013)

Very sorry to here about your friend, hopefully he'll recover. If your friend seeded with isopods/springtails when he set up the tank there may be a population already existing [if frogs havent got them all]. They will clean the poop and anything left in the cage. You can just dump in more anytime. Good luck to you and especially your friend.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

1. My thoughts are with your friend and you as well.
2. You will get all the help here you need, just ask.
3. Stay away from Dart Frog Warehouse


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend. I know it must be such a relief to him to have you there to take care of his frogs. Good for you for taking burden away from him. We do love our frogs 

It sounds like you are on the right track. If you need flies in a hurry while you sort out culturing, there are several vendors on this forum who can get nice cultures to you in a matter of a couple days. 

If you posted pics of the tank we could give it a look over for you. 

Maybe prepare for possibly splitting up your group of 4. A 30g tank is fine for 4 juvie tinctorius but adults (particularly females) can be territorial and aggressive. At 8 months, they should be getting close to sexual maturity. If there is aggression and bullying in the tank, it can lead to disease and injury and malnutrition. So, perhaps be ready with a back up tank to split them up.


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## Coffeebeans (Jan 10, 2014)

Everyone, thank you very much for the help!



JPccusa said:


> You did not mention vitamin supplementation. Make sure the flies are dusted with vitamins every time you feed. Depending on the tank setup and some other factors, the frequency of feeding will vary. See this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/90878-feeding-frequency.html#post803234
> 
> You also did not mention leaf litter on top of the substrate. Make sure there is plenty of that and make sure to use a frog-friendly type of leaf litter.


I started 3 more cultures yesterday using the banana and applesauce recipe found on this page: Fruit Flies-Doyle's Dart Den Yesterday I went to the pet store and bought a calcium + D3 supplement and a multivitamin. I'll start to powder the flies every day, rotating the supplements. 



jpm995 said:


> If your friend seeded with isopods/springtails when he set up the tank there may be a population already existing [if frogs havent got them all]. They will clean the poop and anything left in the cage. You can just dump in more anytime.


I'll look into getting more springtails or isopods. I know that my local pet store sells cultures of them, and dumping them into the viv in isn't very hard.



frogface said:


> If you posted pics of the tank we could give it a look over for you.
> 
> Maybe prepare for possibly splitting up your group of 4. A 30g tank is fine for 4 juvie tinctorius but adults (particularly females) can be territorial and aggressive. At 8 months, they should be getting close to sexual maturity. If there is aggression and bullying in the tank, it can lead to disease and injury and malnutrition. So, perhaps be ready with a back up tank to split them up.


I may have estimated when I said it was a 30 gallon tank. I was a little stressed at the time and just eyeballed it (I am doing this on top of college and a part-time job) and I will measure the tank and share the dimensions soon. I don't have access to a good SLR camera right now (I live on a college campus, the frogs are housed in their viv in the "aquarium room" of the Biology department where I work) but I will do my best with iPhone pictures. I'll look into what kind of leaves will be appropriate for leaf litter for the frogs.

I have one other question: The fruit fly culture I bought is contained in a big deli tub. I'll tap the cover and sides prior to taking off the lid, but whenever I do so I get an eruption of fruit flies trying to crawl out. Is there any special technique or secret I can use to make feeding easier? I tried putting them in the refrigerator for 3-4 minutes to slow them down, but by the time I had gotten back to the viv they warmed up and were just as fast as before. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Alexmenke92 (Nov 19, 2013)

Coffeebeans said:


> Everyone, thank you very much for the help!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I find that the 32 oz placon cups work really well from Josh's. They provide ample space for media / reproduction and not many if any spill out when put into a feeder cup or whatever you mix your vit /cal supplements with your flies in.
32 oz Insect cup and lid (Placon Cup) | Josh's Frogs


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Managing fruit flies is an acquired skill. There's tapping and shaking and thumping and turning to be done the whole while. Before long you'll be doing it without thinking and without losing a single fly. Just takes practice


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Coffeebeans said:


> I'll look into getting more springtails or isopods. I know that my local pet store sells cultures of them, and dumping them into the viv in isn't very hard.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks everyone!


Wow, you have a local pet store that sells iso cultures? 
Lucky you


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## jpm995 (Sep 15, 2013)

Getting the flies from culture cup to viv is a nightmare the first few times. Many escape. What i do now is use another shorter cup to dump files into. First i add calcium power to transport cup, it slows them down. Then in the sink i tap culture cup to get flies off the top, then turn over and tap sides to get files into transport cup. I dont turn too much as some get out. The key is to keep tapping transport cup before they climp up the sides. Then quickly snap on culture top, keep tapping xport cup and scan for escapees in sink. squash quickly with sponge. I just leave xport cup in viv on side and let them crawl out. If i dump cup too much calcium falls out. I resuse cup a few times to save calcium. Im sure others have better ways, my biggest issue was wife freaking out over escaped flies. they get out of viv too if any tiny gaps are available.


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## Alexmenke92 (Nov 19, 2013)

jpm995 said:


> Getting the flies from culture cup to viv is a nightmare the first few times. Many escape. What i do now is use another shorter cup to dump files into. First i add calcium power to transport cup, it slows them down. Then in the sink i tap culture cup to get flies off the top, then turn over and tap sides to get files into transport cup. I dont turn too much as some get out. The key is to keep tapping transport cup before they climp up the sides. Then quickly snap on culture top, keep tapping xport cup and scan for escapees in sink. squash quickly with sponge. I just leave xport cup in viv on side and let them crawl out. If i dump cup too much calcium falls out. I resuse cup a few times to save calcium. Im sure others have better ways, my biggest issue was wife freaking out over escaped flies. they get out of viv too if any tiny gaps are available.


This is exactly what I do, works like a charm.


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## Coffeebeans (Jan 10, 2014)

jpm995 said:


> Getting the flies from culture cup to viv is a nightmare the first few times. Many escape. What i do now is use another shorter cup to dump files into. First i add calcium power to transport cup, it slows them down. Then in the sink i tap culture cup to get flies off the top, then turn over and tap sides to get files into transport cup. I dont turn too much as some get out. The key is to keep tapping transport cup before they climp up the sides. Then quickly snap on culture top, keep tapping xport cup and scan for escapees in sink. squash quickly with sponge.


I did exactly this but with a plastic bag today and it worked wonderfully. I lost only 3 fruit flies in the sink. Thank you very much for the tip!

I took some pictures of the viv for you guys to look at. I only have an iPhone 4 so they aren't the best, but I hope that they are workable. The first picture in the album is of 3 fruit fly cultures I set up (the mason jars.) I used crinkled up thin packing paper in place of excelsior because I didn't have any excelsior. frogs 1/13/14 - Imgur

I think I misidentified the frogs, upon looking at them I doubt they are cobalts. The thing I remembered for trying to find a matching frog was "black and yellow body, blue butt..." and I assumed the legs would get darker with age. Anyone have any idea what species these frogs are? They look like truncs to me, but not quite. I think I heard one calling today, it sounded like a soft trill/buzz. I forgot to measure the tank today, I'll do it tomorrow.

I dusted the fruit flies with calcium + D3 powder and will alternate daily with multivitamin powder. The frogs are still eating very well (so much fun to watch them hunt!) and I'm going sometime this week to get a springtail culture from Blue Fish Aquarium, then I should be all set.

A sincere thanks for the help, everyone.


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## trevorthetoad (Nov 5, 2012)

I took a look at the pictures and they look a lot like Reginas. Not 100% sure, I'm no expert.
Sounds like you're off to a good start. Good luck with your frogs.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Can your friend tell you what kind they are? It's important for you to know beyond guessing. If they breed, you will need to be able to identify them if you plan to distribute froglets. We want you to avoid mixing or cross breeding due to incorrect identification. 

To know just how much we want you to avoid it, do a search on 'mixing'


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## Coffeebeans (Jan 10, 2014)

I have a few details to fill in about the situation- nothing much, but I'm able to do so now. My "friend" is a professor in the Biology department of my college, and since he came out of remission he wanted to keep things quiet. Out of respect for the man, and as a student and coworker, I may have left out a few details about the "whole story." I hope you will understand. 

Since then, the college has released an official statement, and I feel ok about sharing. Darren is in Texas right now for treatment with his wife and 3 young kids (under 10.) I'm really hesitant to bother him with something as trivial as his frogs- *not* because I think they aren't important, but because he and his family are going through a very rough time right now. I got the contact information of the frog breeder, Jon, (a senior student at my college) but he's in Costa Rica right now on a college trip so I'll have to wait for another two weeks before he comes back. I'm sitting pretty right now with the frogs, and I'll just keep things steady and happy until Darren or Jon returns.



frogface said:


> Can your friend tell you what kind they are? It's important for you to know beyond guessing. If they breed, you will need to be able to identify them if you plan to distribute froglets. We want you to avoid mixing or cross breeding due to incorrect identification.
> 
> To know just how much we want you to avoid it, do a search on 'mixing'


I've read quite a few things about mixing on the forum, and I understand everyone's concerns. To an extent, it's the same with with certain tropical fish. I'm a huge fan of species tanks anyway, I figure 4 different frogs of 4 different species aren't hanging around in the wild together. You do raise a good point with breeding and distributing froglets, but I'll just hope that I don't have froglets in two weeks time- they are only 8 months old, after all.

Thank you again, everyone! I can't tell you how helpful you guys have been in the past few days with care, culturing, and more. You have a great forum going, with some killer articles. Thanks for the encouragement.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I certainly understand why you don't want to disturb your friend or his family. Waiting until you can contact the breeder sounds like a good idea. Thank you.


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## Coffeebeans (Jan 10, 2014)

Quick update:

I measured the tank. It is 48x13x17- a 40 long. 

I bought a springtail culture and dumped a bunch in. The frogs went bananas eating them, but I know a lot got away. 

Thanks for your help, everyone. If I wasn't living in a dorm (no pets) I would be planning my own viv right now.


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## Alexmenke92 (Nov 19, 2013)

I live in a dorm where the rules are one 10G found fish tank. I have six vivs. Haha one day I fear that campus police will bust down my door! I'm too impatient to wait until I get out of college. Glad the frogs are good!


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