# I wanna cry FEDEX killed my frogs : (



## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

Brought a pair of azureus from a dendroboard member. Over night FEDEX shipping..... they were supposed to come before 10:30. waited all day long until 3:30, the fking fedex showed up without an apology for being late. I opened the box immediately and found my frogs all dead  

Dont know what to do now. Fking Fedex


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Were they shipped in a styrofoam container with phase 22 panels, or at least gel packs?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

It looks like those shipping containers are far too big for those frogs. They could really be bounced around in those big rubbermaid containers. Most experiences shippers send frogs in very small containers to prevent the frogs from bouncing around and flying all over the container during shipping.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

here is the styrofoam container.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Given the high temps across the nation, what was their original departure location? Memphis low yesterday was 77, much of the country did not have safe shipping temps. You need to check weather at three locations with FedEx. Senders, Memphis, and Receiver.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

How thick is the insulation? Is it the minimum 3/4" thick?

I have to agree with Jason. In summertime, especially this summer being hot across the country, all shipping should be held at a FedEx facility for shipping. Not many frogs will survive on a hot truck all day. Absolutely none with no phase22 packs.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

You will have to work it out with the seller. To ship with Fed Ex you must sign a waiver that releases them if there are DOA's.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

Sent from PARKERSBURG, WV. It's supposed to be over night and arrive in the morning, but Fedex show up at 3:30 like 5 hours late + the afternoon heat.

what a day. I 've been waiting and looking forward for them since last week :\ 

maybe I should stop buying stuff online.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> You will have to work it out with the seller. To ship with Fed Ex you must sign a waiver that releases them if there are DOA's.


Unless they shipped using Shipyourreptiles.com and bought live arrive insurance. However, given yesterdays temps, and if they were not in the safe recommended temps it is voided.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

yeah i think the foam is 3/4 inch thick


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

No phase22 panels or gel packs at all?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Epikmuffin said:


> Sent from PARKERSBURG, WV. It's supposed to be over night and arrive in the morning, but Fedex show up at 3:30 like 5 hours late + the afternoon heat.
> 
> what a day. I 've been waiting and looking forward for them since last week :\
> 
> maybe I should stop buying stuff online.


These things happen, there is risk with shipping. Ask questions of sellers like shipping experience and such.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I did not see a gel pack either, which would mitigate the heat...somewhat. Home made styro i.e. cut peices of styro don't do a very good job unless they are very tightly pieced together in layers, almost like a puzzle. A really hot truck for a few hours and they get cooked, a tough way to learn those lessons but proper packing would have prevented that loss. I lost some frogs late last fall when an early winter storm shut down Fed Ex (which USPS uses), they came in frozen and were in thick styro with big gel packs but a couple of heats packs would have prevented those losses, lesson learned.


ps crappy way to start the weekend


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

absolutely. If I could change one thing about this hobby is the prevalence of folks sending frogs using cut styrofoam pieces. It doesn't work. Get some high end boxes before shipping. Also, ship with gel packs or phase 22 panels.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

no gel packs, just the foam.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

With the recent temps that is just asking for a DOA. Wow.


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## kate801 (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm so sorry. What a heartbreak. Maybe try "hold for pickup" next time. I always get mine first thing in the morning that way and my local fedex loves it when I stop in. They always ask if they can see the frogs. I hope everything works out better next time!


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

kate801 said:


> I'm so sorry. What a heartbreak. Maybe try "hold for pickup" next time. I always get mine first thing in the morning that way and my local fedex loves it when I stop in. They always ask if they can see the frogs. I hope everything works out better next time!


yeah I 'll definitely do that if there is a next time. 

Thanks guys! I felt a little better now.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Sorry to say, and I may be unpopular for saying this, but....No phase22 panels/gel packs, home made box, minimum insulation, shipping containers too large, no hold for pick up, this seller had no clue what they were doing.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> absolutely. If I could change one thing about this hobby is the prevalence of folks sending frogs using cut styrofoam pieces. It doesn't work. Get some high end boxes before shipping. Also, ship with gel packs or phase 22 panels.


Homemade boxes are just as good if not better than many commercially used boxes available. The issue is using proper materials and construction. Pink home construction (w/R-Value) use foam board is the best material to be used for homemade boxes. They panels should be staggered and rubber cemented together except of lid. Cuts of each panel should be clean as possible. This construction needs to be made in advance to air out.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

While I'm sure its better than nothing, even then the pink insulation foam is only 1/2 thick, right? I find it hard to believe that it can insulate properly.

Sounds like an experiment is in order... your homemade panels vs. my 3 inch thick pharma grade boxes.  

Or how about this one...


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Where do you get those three inch thick boxes?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

stemcellular said:


> While I'm sure its better than nothing, even then the pink insulation foam is only 1/2 thick, right? I find it hard to believe that it can insulate properly.
> 
> Sounds like an experiment is in order... your homemade panels vs. my 3 inch thick pharma grade boxes.
> 
> Or how about this one...


Nice! But you grab yours for free, at work, don't you?

OP I am so sorry about what happened to your frogs. This hobby can be so rewarding and so heart breaking.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

stemcellular said:


> While I'm sure its better than nothing, even then the pink insulation foam is only 1/2 thick, right? I find it hard to believe that it can insulate properly.
> 
> Sounds like an experiment is in order... your homemade panels vs. my 3 inch thick pharma grade boxes.
> 
> Or how about this one...


=O I wish mines were in this one.

2 thumbs up for your box!


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> While I'm sure its better than noting, even then the pink insulation foam is only 1/2 thick, right? I find it hard to believe that it can insulate properly.
> 
> Sounds like an experiment is in order... your homemade panels vs. my 3 inch thick pharma grade boxes.
> 
> Or how about this one...


No it can also be purchased in 3/4". It also can be glued together to make it thicker. I had a winter UE order that originally packed in this manor and I was extremely impressed I had to build one myself. I like the challenge Ray, I think it would a good thread for the the Reptile Report to pick-up and and maybe sponsor. Got a data logger probe?


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I'm so sorry to read this...it's heartbreaking to lose frogs. 

I wouldn't blame FedEx though...IF those frogs were packed better, they would have lived until they were delivered to you at 3:30. I've used Josh's Frogs shipping kits and Phase 22 panels and have had frogs arrive just fine in the upper 90's...one even reached a tiny bit over 100 degrees!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

JJuchems said:


> No it can also be purchased in 3/4". It also can be glued together to make it thicker. I had a winter UE order that originally packed in this manor and I was extremely impressed I had to build one myself. I like the challenge Ray, I think it would a good thread for the the Reptile Report to pick-up and and maybe sponsor. Got a data logger probe?


We should do it. I dont have a logger but can prob scrounge one up somewhere. The photo you included is def better than what many ship using. I almost never use heat packs even in the dead of winter. Phase is the way to go. I've also shipped using a smaller internal box in a larger, thicker box, when temps necessitate.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

frogface said:


> Nice! But you grab yours for free, at work, don't you?
> 
> OP I am so sorry about what happened to your frogs. This hobby can be so rewarding and so heart breaking.


Yup, but you can pick them up at hospitals, pharamacies, vet offices, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> Yup, but you can pick them up at hospitals, pharamacies, vet offices, etc.


I haven't been able to find a source locally that will give them to me..usually they have been fed into some waste stream.. 

From what I've seen in the thread so far, I'm not sure you can hang all of the blame on Fed-ex. If they weren't shipped with gel packs or phase change panels, they may have been deceased before they would have been delivered. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> It looks like those shipping containers are far too big for those frogs. They could really be bounced around in those big rubbermaid containers. Most experiences shippers send frogs in very small containers to prevent the frogs from bouncing around and flying all over the container during shipping.


Rusty,

This gets tossed around alot but I'm not sure that it is a real cause of death.... I've shipped and recieved a lot of frogs and toads in larger containers over the years without seeing the sort of trauma the hobby claims. 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

We toss so many away per day (just our lab buildings) that I really should start saving more for folks. Maybe I could distribute shipping packages, box with gel packs and have them sent out? Would people be interested? Biggest expense would be shipping (esp with gel packs) and my time.


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## Robzilla56 (Aug 2, 2011)

I would love to see an experiment. Maybe a hot weather and a cold weather test. pharm grade vs homemade...with phase pack and without.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Ray,
Those boxes when bought 1-3 are arounds 27.00 each approximately. You should be keeping them. Just for me
But seriously shipping right now without taking the right percautions is bad. But it can be done absolutely, but from what i saw the paper towel, insulation, no gel packs, all equal death. 
Hopefully we as a group can learn from this. And hopefully the shipper can help you out.

Good Luck 
Daryl


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Ha, nice. I've sold a few for store credit to someone on DB for $3 each. :0


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Rusty,
> 
> This gets tossed around alot but I'm not sure that it is a real cause of death.... I've shipped and recieved a lot of frogs and toads in larger containers over the years without seeing the sort of trauma the hobby claims.
> 
> Ed


Ed I agree that the big containers were probably not the cause of death in this case. But the size of the containers along with all the other things only points to an inexperienced shipper. 




stemcellular said:


> We toss so many away per day (just our lab buildings) that I really should start saving more for folks. Maybe I could distribute shipping packages, box with gel packs and have them sent out? Would people be interested? Biggest expense would be shipping (esp with gel packs) and my time.


Ray I'd certainly be interested in boxes like that, with or without gel packs. I've checked out similar boxes through Uline and they aren't cheap.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Robzilla56 said:


> I would love to see an experiment. Maybe a hot weather and a cold weather test. pharm grade vs homemade...with phase pack and without.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66880-testing-testing.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html

Here is another one of my shipping setups:

Shipped some frogs from MA to CO (temps 50s-30s). Outer box was approx. 2 inches thick and inner box about 1inch. Two phase packets included (in liquid form) in outer box, shipped overnight for hold at PO in CO.

Temps below upon arrival:

Phase 22 packs are pretty much solid but not as hard as a fully solid pack.

External box temp at the post office -- 79 F
External box temp at the house --70 F
pulled off styro top and IMMEDIATELY checked at -- 71.8
pulled off inner styro top and IMMEDIATELY checked at 72.3


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If the seller had included 4 Phase 22 panels, the box's internal temperature would most likely still have been in the high 70's to low 80's.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Ed I agree that the big containers were probably not the cause of death in this case. But the size of the containers along with all the other things only points to an inexperienced shipper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obtaining is nothing, just walk upstairs or outside. The hard part is storing them and then shipping them. I suppose if I used the USPS drop box and had them sent ground it could be cost effective. I'd have to take all the personal lab stuff off though...


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

stemcellular said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66880-testing-testing.html
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html
> 
> ...


Ray, I'm wondering how effective those gel packs are because they are sitting on the lid of the outer box (where it says Uline) How thick is the styrofoam between the gel packs and the inner box? Were there any gel packs in the inner box?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Not very thick, maybe an inch or so? The idea is that the phase panels keep the temp in the outer box consistent which prevents the inner box from destabilizing. In other cases I've used panels/pouches in both, but in this case it wasn't possible or really necessary as you can tell by the temp readouts.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> I wouldn't blame FedEx though...IF those frogs were packed better, they would have lived until they were delivered to you at 3:30.



I agree 100%....and for the OP's sake, I hope seller feels the same.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

There are no frogs that I want so badly as to have them shipped in 105 degree weather. It's not just the temps at the shipper and buyers ends that count, but where the frogs have to go to get there.

Safest thing is to stick to the cooler months for shipping. and pick up frogs at shows and from other froggers at frog meets.

Just an opinion, Richard.


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

Well said Richard... 

Whenever I have frogs shipped.. I check temps and weather conditions on it's route to me. Even if they are Fedex Hold for Pickup. The sender would send it/drop it off late in the afternoon to minimize the higher temps of the mid day. shipped out from sender Fedex location later that evening.. go thru Memphis or other major hub in the middle of the night nd arrive at my destination Fedex office for pick-up. 

Those thick boxes I get once in a while from local hospitals, they use these for organ transplants and blood work and stuff. As long as there is no visible blood inside the box, I will take them. ;-).. 

It's sad to hear frogs did not make it to their destination alive and well. Anyone who has had frogs shipped have had one or more scares.. I once had frogs come in that appeared dead due to a very cold shipping box. I hand warmed them and they came back to good health. After that, I truly believe dart frogs can take colder temps better than hotter temps. 

Peter Keane


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## Peter Keane (Jun 11, 2005)

I concur.. those heat packs are usually taped on the top lid of the box before it gets closed/sealed. No matter how many arrows you write on the box, the shippin companies NEVER, EVER adhere to this. if the box is upside down, well now you got frogs sittting on this heat pack. Or the heat pack will dislodge from the tape and land on/near the frog container(s) and again dead frogs. For the investment to put into purchasing frogs, it is best to use gel packs/phase 22. 



stemcellular said:


> We should do it. I dont have a logger but can prob scrounge one up somewhere. The photo you included is def better than what many ship using. I almost never use heat packs even in the dead of winter. Phase is the way to go. I've also shipped using a smaller internal box in a larger, thicker box, when temps necessitate.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

Woodsman said:


> There are no frogs that I want so badly as to have them shipped in 105 degree weather. It's not just the temps at the shipper and buyers ends that count, but where the frogs have to go to get there.
> 
> Safest thing is to stick to the cooler months for shipping. and pick up frogs at shows and from other froggers at frog meets.
> 
> Just an opinion, Richard.


yeah I won't order them online after this


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Epikmuffin said:


> yeah I won't order them online after this


It's ok to order them online. It's just safer to not do it in the dead of summer or the dead of winter, imo.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

You can still order them online. Just make sure you are dealing with someone who knows how to properly ship animals. Those poor frogs. They could of used a phase panel or 2 in the 102 degree heat. Make sure you leave feedback on whoever shipped them so this does not happen again.


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

Epikmuffin said:


> yeah I 'll definitely do that if there is a next time.
> 
> Thanks guys! I felt a little better now.


There will be a next time Epikmuffin! We will talk at work, but like the other members said, the weather has been pretty crumby for shipping anything! It sucks to learn like that, but it does happen. One thing is for sure, and that is to not order from whoever sent an incorrectly packed box! Next thing is to ask the seller how they pack their animals, if they don't give you the right answer then buy elsewhere! I am sorry that you had a bad experience, but don't let this experience discourage you from future shipments. See you at work monday!


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

repking26 said:


> There will be a next time Epikmuffin! We will talk at work, but like the other members said, the weather has been pretty crumby for shipping anything! It sucks to learn like that, but it does happen. One thing is for sure, and that is to not order from whoever sent an incorrectly packed box! Next thing is to ask the seller how they pack their animals, if they don't give you the right answer then buy elsewhere! I am sorry that you had a bad experience, but don't let this experience discourage you from future shipments. See you at work monday!


Thanks! man, I felt better now. It sucked when i just opened the box. 

btw, your dad really like your new tank. He 's been talking about it all day


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Bummer man. Phase panels are a must!!! 
If you happen to be going the the N.A.R.B.C. in Arlington in August or just coming up to the DFW area, shoot me a pm. I have azureus coming out of water weekly. 


Casper 



Epikmuffin said:


> Brought a pair of azureus from a dendroboard member. Over night FEDEX shipping..... they were supposed to come before 10:30. waited all day long until 3:30, the fking fedex showed up without an apology for being late. I opened the box immediately and found my frogs all dead
> 
> Dont know what to do now. Fking Fedex
> 
> ...


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

Epikmuffin said:


> Thanks! man, I felt better now. It sucked when i just opened the box.
> 
> btw, your dad really like your new tank. He 's been talking about it all day


It does suck man, but I told you to wait till fall to get the new frogs, but you live and you learn. And yeah the new viv is coming along nicely, I will post a build thread next week.


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

You could always order online from Josh's Frogs next time, he is originally from texas so I am sure he knows how to ship to here in houston!


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

yeah i'll just stick to the sponsor and avoid shipping as much as i can. 

The seller said he done his part as shipping and the frog's lifes are not his responsibility...


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

In that case, start a feedback thread on them in Vendor Feedback if one doesn't exist already and tell the story because that was all on THEM.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Epikmuffin said:


> The seller said he done his part as shipping and the frog's lifes are not his responsibility...


OMG! That's ridiculous! How heartless!
I believe you paid for live frogs, not dead ones!

PMing you...I'd like to know who this is.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Epikmuffin said:


> yeah i'll just stick to the sponsor and avoid shipping as much as i can.
> 
> The seller said he done his part as shipping and the frog's lifes are not his responsibility...


Anybody worth doing business with in this hobby will gaurentee live arrival, you will need to pay the shipping expense 2nd time for most but some will even incur that charge (me for instance). Please do start a feedback thread, we all should know who not to deal with based on their policy....unless this seller said they would not ship in these temps and you insisted he do it anyway, he should be responsible to deliver live frogs. If you paid through Paypal or CC I would dispute the charge.


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## TURQ64 (Apr 21, 2012)

+1 on what Mark said..Please do name names, as I myself don't want to get screwed in this fashion.I guarantee everything I ship, and basically expect the same from anyone..Sorry for your woes....Gary


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

markpulawski said:


> Anybody worth doing business with in this hobby will gaurentee live arrival, you will need to pay the shipping expense 2nd time for most but some will even incur that charge (me for instance). Please do start a feedback thread, we all should know who not to deal with based on their policy....unless this seller said they would not ship in these temps and you insisted he do it anyway, he should be responsible to deliver live frogs. If you paid through Paypal or CC I would dispute the charge.


I second that. There are some great DB members and vendors on here that desrve a pat on the back...and for the very few poor ones, they deserve a kick in the a$$. The feedback thread would be a great place to do so. Prevent this kind of tragedy from happening to the next person.

I'm so sorry for your loss. I can't imagine how disheartening it would be to open the package.

Keep your chin up though. I recently ordered some frogs from a DB member and he did an awesome job and everything he could to insure the health of the frogs and my happiness. Most everyone here will take great care of you and your frogs. A few fine examples have posted on this thread!

-Chris


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

^^^What the above posters said!! Name names because it is helpful to know who not to buy from. It will save us a headache but it will also save frogs who don't need to die.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Really?? Really?? Yes a feedback thread needs to be started, and link it to this thread too!!! If you don't someone else will suffer exactly the same fate you have. Making sure the frogs are packed properly for shipping is most certainly the sellers responsibility. If it isn't their responsibility who's is it? You the buyer? Me? Nope it's ALL on them, and shady pieces of feces should be outed. Just as the good breeders, the good people should be praised. 
It's obvious this seller could really give a crap about the welfare of these frogs. He just wanted your money. Now that makes me think about this person. If they were so callous and uncaring about the welfare of these frogs during shipping, then what is their husbandry practices really like?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Epikmuffin said:


> yeah I won't order them online after this


Don't think ordering online is a bad thing. I have shipped every frog I have ever owned. I have had one die in shipping but the seller was top notch and honored his live arrival and replaced the cost of the frog (which was more than $200). 

A learning lesson is to wait for the best temps. I had a couple frogs shipped during the summer. Both the seller and I watched the temps and were willing to wait for a storm front to move in before shipping. I paid a deposit for him to hold the frogs and the remainder when we confirmed shipping. We waited about 5 weeks before we both had good temps for shipping.

You should also have "hold for pick up". This is a very important step. The FedEx place I use for "hold for pick up" is not my favorite but I have never had a shipment be late. I prefer the UPS Store "Hold for pick up" because it is much nicer and the AC is always at about 70 degrees, while the FedEx air conditioning seems to be in the high 70s. UPS stores charge a $5 fee that you have to pay when picking them up. However, I don't mind paying that. When you use hold for pick up, the risk of late delivery is MUCH smaller than an actual home delivery. 

It is bad business if the seller is not refunding your money. Just looking at the packing I can see many issues. I am sorry to see you have to deal with this early in the hobby.


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## SamsonsFrogs (Mar 4, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Sorry to say, and I may be unpopular for saying this, but....No phase22 panels/gel packs, home made box, minimum insulation, shipping containers too large, no hold for pick up, this seller had no clue what they were doing.


I agree. No phase 22 packs?! Thats just not cool. 

Sam Cavoulas


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Epikmuffin said:


> yeah i'll just stick to the sponsor and avoid shipping as much as i can.
> 
> The seller said he done his part as shipping and the frog's lifes are not his responsibility...


Well, that cinches it. Too many hobbyists here offer a live arrival guarantee to bother with anybody that doesn't. Always find out ahead of time. With the advent of phase change gel packs, the only reason not to use them is to shave a couple bucks. 

Speaking personally, had I shipped these I would have used much smaller containers without large amounts of heavy wet sphagnum. That allows less jostling of the frogs, but even more importantly leaves more room for gel packs/insulation. I don't typically ship over 100 degrees but I really think a properly packed box sent to be held at the closest FedEx center would have survived just fine. I also would have used SYR and the arrival of the package would have been insured. Insurance on that package would have run about 5 bucks.

I'm not tooting my own horn, either. There are a ton of vendors and hobbyists here whose shipping standards meet or exceed the above. Look for the live arrival guarantee.

...and leave feedback. It's a minor hassle, but it's really all we have to prevent this stuff in the future.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

yeah, I let he have the weekend to think over. If nothing changes I'll write a vendor review.

Thanks guys!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Write the vendor review now. You shipper screwed up, plain and simple. Not writing the review is not helping anyone. Keep in mind that you can change your review if he changes his mind and makes good on it. A moderator will change feedback for you if requested.
Just last week I shipped 22 frogs into 100+ degree heat. The frogs arrived in perfect shape.
Your shipper is not only not bothering to use today's improved shipping methods, but is also not bothering to use yesterday's "old school" shipping methods. There are no Phase packs, there are no gel packs, there are no "Blue Ice" packs, there is now "box within a box"...he has taken virtually NO precautions against the heat. Now he knew it would be hot and chose to do nothing. Straight up, he killed your frogs.
Letting him get away with it does not help the hobby. Write up a feedback report on him and file for a refund through PayPal.
YOU are in the right on this. THE SELLER killed your frogs. Anyone experienced in shipping techniques, can look at this, look at the weather, and be able to tell you this box could not have survived the weather.
Demand your money back. You purchased live frogs, did you not? You have not received what you ordered.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Out of curiosity, was live arrival ever discussed with the shipper? I think you're the victim here (well the frogs, really), but just so we're clear, you didn't insist on some aspect of shipping that the seller in turn agreed to but without a live arrival guarantee, did you?

You didn't say anything to indicate that this was the case, but I just want to be clear.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I guess we should not assume the shipper was a "he" after looking at his past posts and inquires for frogs. It very well could be a "she" shipper. LOL. If it is a woman, good luck getting any money back (that is just a joke).


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

lol jepper. 

I did not insist on the shipping time at all. The seller were actually supposed to ship on last tuesday but he got some business, so I told him whenever as long as the frog arrive alive and healthy. 

We did not discuss about live arrival, but I felt it should already be implied since the seller offer to ship. I will make sure i do ask next time.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

> Out of curiosity, was live arrival ever discussed with the shipper?


I thought the point of ordering frogs was that they arrive ALIVE! This is usually assumed but I guess some people like to order dead frogs.........


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

mordoria said:


> I thought the point of ordering frogs was that they arrive ALIVE! This is usually assumed but I guess some people like to order dead frogs.........


Half price I hope


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

sadly i agree, i think gel packs would have saved the frogs. they would have at least dramatically improved the odds of them arriving alive. i think if you ship through shipyourreptiles and have it held for pick up they guarantee it arrives by 10 a.m. just some thoughts. i really am sorry, i love blue frogs.



randommind said:


> I agree 100%....and for the OP's sake, I hope seller feels the same.


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Write the vendor review now. You shipper screwed up, plain and simple. Not writing the review is not helping anyone. Keep in mind that you can change your review if he changes his mind and makes good on it. A moderator will change feedback for you if requested.
> Just last week I shipped 22 frogs into 100+ degree heat. The frogs arrived in perfect shape.
> Your shipper is not only not bothering to use today's improved shipping methods, but is also not bothering to use yesterday's "old school" shipping methods. There are no Phase packs, there are no gel packs, there are no "Blue Ice" packs, there is now "box within a box"...he has taken virtually NO precautions against the heat. Now he knew it would be hot and chose to do nothing. Straight up, he killed your frogs.
> Letting him get away with it does not help the hobby. Write up a feedback report on him and file for a refund through PayPal.
> ...


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

yeah I was busy on the morning, but just wrote a vendor review.


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

Epikmuffin said:


> yeah I was busy on the morning, but just wrote a vendor review.


Hey can you post the link to it so I can find it that way, or what is the title of the post?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

repking26 said:


> Hey can you post the link to it so I can find it that way, or what is the title of the post?


Feedback doesn't go up instantly. A mod must approve it first.


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Feedback doesn't go up instantly. A mod must approve it first.


That makes sense. I never knew that.


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

The feedback is up! After hearing what everyone said about his packaging of the frogs and because of that, they were DOA... I'll NEVER buy from that guy. Also, after shopping around for my first frogs.. 225$ for a pair of proven Azureus, even shipped, seems pretty high to me. Regardless, i am honestly sorry your frogs didn't make it


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Found it. Once again, sorry for your horrible experience.

Here's a quick link to the feedback to make it a little easier...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/85302-dartguy41.html

-Chris


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

That still sucks man, however thanks for posting the review so we can all avoid getting ripped off, as well as saving the life of frogs who would be shipped improperly.


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

The community should look at this unfortunate instance as a learning tool:
>Confirm with the seller ALL factors (delivery time/date, packing conditions, guarantees)
>The Feedback section of DB is a useful tool for both buyer AND seller-- the seller has the opportunity to right his wrong(my opinion) or risk future sale opportunities.

I agree with Mark Pulawski and others that this seller bears the burden of providing adequate(or better) protection from the shipping elements. His [current] refusal to accept this burden ensures that I'll never do business with them, and hope that others feel similarly. 
Scott


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Epikmuffin said:


> Sent from PARKERSBURG, WV. It's supposed to be over night and arrive in the morning, but Fedex show up at 3:30 like 5 hours late + the afternoon heat.
> 
> what a day. I 've been waiting and looking forward for them since last week :\
> 
> maybe I should stop buying stuff online.


Interesting, you said the package originated in WV but the seller advertises OH.

Edit: He mentioned "as described" his description does not state dead frogs and pictures a live pair. Given his reasoning he could be sending you dead frogs. If he wants to screw people over he needs to work on his language.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Despite the loss (I am very sorry both for the buyer and the frogs), this CAN BE a learning lesson for all. Vendor feedback is critical. Negative experieces cannot be shared or evaluated if nothign is published. Accidents do happen, even when the best of precautions are taken sometimes. This was not one of those incidents. The seller obviously did not take the time nor effort to do what was necessary to insure the frogs lives. Anytime I deal with anyone by shipping, I do an extensive search for feedback on them, prior posts, etc, searching out their level of experience, complaints, etc. It may take a little while, but well worth the effort. Regardless of the "deal" I find, I will not deal with someone that has more than one complaint on them similar to this. And refusing to work with the buyer at all....thats just bad bussiness. Thats a burn and turn....


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

JJuchems said:


> Interesting, you said the package originated in WV but the seller advertises OH.
> 
> Edit: He mentioned "as described" his description does not state dead frogs and pictures a live pair. Given his reasoning he could be sending you dead frogs. If he wants to screw people over he needs to work on his language.


On the sellers page it says he is from Marietta Ohio which is a stones throw from WV. You can literally walk across the bridge there and ship your package from WV.


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

Can any of you veteran members PM me any names or lists of shippers with similar shady or unethical ediquette? I'd like to avoid a situation like muffin had.


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2009)

Sorry to hear about the frog loss Epik, it is always hard to have such excitement and anticipation and have it become a DOA disaster.

This sounds like a series of bad decisions on the part of the shipper.

Packaging, cold packs, Phase 22 packs, delivery options, all could have been used to ensure safe live arrival.

Shipping in the heat of the summer is a bigger challenge than shipping in the cold of the winter. 

As for the late arrival time, MOST addresses are by 10:30. But as you get further from the big city, Guaranteed Delivery time may be Noon, or End of Day. 

It is always important to check the guaranteed time according to your zip code when shipping or receiving live animals. You should know what to expect. Without knowing the zip code in question here I would assume the guaranteed time was probably 4:30pm, so the package was not actually "late".

I would be happy to clarify the guaranteed time with your zip code, you can also look it up at the FedEx.com site, under Time in Transit.

Still, frogs shouldn't sit on the truck all day waiting for end of day delivery. They should have been shipped to a business address for an early morning arrival, or shipped to the FedEx facility Hold for Pickup. That is your best bet for summer frog shipments.

Epik is not at fault here, but it should be the responsibility of both the shipper AND reciever to know what time to expect a live package. Give yourself the best chance of success and plan accordingly, whether shipping or receiving.

(and a suggestion to have packages booked with SYR to take advantage of both On-Time and Live Arrival Insurance, for extra peace of mind)

As for the shipper..

Ignorance can be corrected. A shipper can learn to do better. Unfortunately, when you offer this kind of "tough luck" customer service, you end up alienating and driving away a TON of potential business. In the case of the shipper, I expect the loss of potential clients far outweighs the replacement cost of these frogs.

If Dartguy41 would have just come on and said "I screwed up. Very sorry, refund or replacement coming" that ALONE would have secured lots of future business and clients, lots of positive goodwill. Very shortsighted to leave a customer hanging their head with dead frogs in hand while you shrug your shoulders.

And now an entire FROG COMMUNITY may be on the lookout NOT to do business with this seller. Again, that is so short sighted to leave your customer hanging.

As for shipping in general, don't let one seller affect your enthusiasm for other terrific breeders. You have access to the BEST frog folks across the country here, and the vast majority of them will bust their butts to provide you great animals and great service. It would be short sighted on a buyer's part to suddenly limit frog selection to only what is available locally.

Great sellers can execute great shipping, and a great experience. Sorry that you got short changed in this instance Epik, but I bet there are a dozen breeders reading this thread that would love to have an opportunity to give you the great experience you deserve : )


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

[email protected] said:


> (and a suggestion to have packages booked with SYR to take advantage of both On-Time and Live Arrival Insurance, for extra peace of mind)


And this the reason why I only ship using SYR.com. Thanks for coming over and making a statment Robyn. There are plenty of Youtube videos, including instructions and great videos and instructions on shipyourreptiles.com


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2009)

Ouch.

I think there is still a window open here for a positive learning opportunity : )


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Maybe someone reputable and with any since of consciousness will give you a good discount on your replacement frogs. If I was raising them I would do that for you but I only have auratus froglets at the moment  

Another word of caution. When the seller has less than 100 posts, they are probably only on here to sell frogs. This isn't always true but you could always ask a few people if they know the seller before buying. 

I am still mad he did you like that. Clearly looking at the packing I would blame him and not the delayed shipping. Plus, in this heat he should have known to have it "hold for pick up" and not sent to your house. Bad seller, bad!


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

Thank you Robyn and everybody for all the tips! I learned alot from everybody comments. It will definitely get better in the future.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

JayMillz said:


> Can any of you veteran members PM me any names or lists of shippers with similar shady or unethical ediquette? I'd like to avoid a situation like muffin had.


If you can't find feedback on a specific seller, it is easier to ask reputable members and moderators about someone you are trying to do business with.


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## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

I sure hope you paid with Paypal. If you did you can report the problem and get your money back.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Froggywv said:


> I sure hope you paid with Paypal. If you did you can report the problem and get your money back.


Agreed dispute with Paypal, you paid for live frogs, not dead ones.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Just FYI, if you proceed with a Paypal dispute, I believe you only have 45 days from the day of payment to file that dispute. I tried to give a delinquent seller some extra time once and then had it bite me when it turned out I had waited past the allotted time.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Also, if you file a dispute, and then remove the dispute because they promise to make it right, you cannot re-file. This is a scam to buy time. If they get you to retract, you'll never hear another word from them or from PayPal.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

Called paypal and they told me that they do not cover any purchase of live animal, so any dispute will be automatically closed. They advised me to contract the credit card. 

So paypal doesn't really help they buyer much.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Epikmuffin said:


> Called paypal and they told me that they do not cover any purchase of live animal, so any dispute will be automatically closed. They advised me to contract the credit card.
> 
> So paypal doesn't really help they buyer much.


I'm sorry, that sucks. Same old story about live shipments, huh? PayPal won't protect you either. 
I guess the best we can do now is just keep bumping this for a while so plenty of people are warned about the fine service you can expect from the seller linked earlier. Here it is again to make it easy to find. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/85302-dartguy41.html

Newer froggers please take notice. When shopping for your frogs, PLEASE remember that the cheapest shipping is not always the cheapest. Good reliable shipping is expensive...and well worth it! Ask others if they know anything about a particular seller/hobbyist. 

This has been mentioned, but for those who come through and skim the latest entries, just pointing out that the consensus seems to be that FedEx did NOT kill them, rather, the seller killed the frogs through sheer negligence, and lack giving a...darn.


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

if you buy animals from someone you don't really know always use your credit card through PayPal. This way if there is any problem you file a dispute with your credit card company. At least you'' have protection. With PayPal the buyer has no protection

Sorry if this was off topic


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

I ordered a handful of azureus froglets two days ago, the seller has been in constant contact about the weather conditions here and there, what is looking like the best day to ship and gaurenteed arriving alive. I actually asked him many questions about the shipping concerns I had based on this thread, which again I am extremely sorry you had an experience like this. 

I cant imagine a breeder or seller such as this guy (i dont know if i can mention names or not without getting my post deleted so i wont) shipping live animals like that and then telling you after you received them dead...sorry about your luck. He obviously only cares about making money without any care to the frogs he is keeping or selling or the customers he has.


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## rgwheels (Feb 19, 2008)

How can the community know if this person comes back on under a different name to sell more stuff? Are there ways of tracking that? 

I certainly want to avoid doing business with this person like the plague! I can't believe that they didn't even care that the frogs died. It sounds like $$$ was the only concern here. 



Pumilo said:


> I'm sorry, that sucks. Same old story about live shipments, huh? PayPal won't protect you either.
> I guess the best we can do now is just keep bumping this for a while so plenty of people are warned about the fine service you can expect from the seller linked earlier. Here it is again to make it easy to find. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/vendor-feedback/85302-dartguy41.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ideally the seller's name and not just thier screen name would be posted as part of the feedback. 

Ed


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

rgwheels said:


> How can the community know if this person comes back on under a different name to sell more stuff? Are there ways of tracking that?
> 
> I certainly want to avoid doing business with this person like the plague! I can't believe that they didn't even care that the frogs died. It sounds like $$$ was the only concern here.


Absolutely correct RG!! I thought about the same thing the other day. There has to be some sort of protocol in place to prevent a banned person from just signing up again under an assumed name under the same IP address. Granted this seller has not been banned, however it seems like the dendroboard members have excluded him from their future purchases. But the fact still is he may have already signed up as a new member...


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

repking26 said:


> Absolutely correct RG!! I thought about the same thing the other day. There has to be some sort of protocol in place to prevent a banned person from just signing up again under an assumed name under the same IP address. Granted this seller has not been banned, however it seems like the dendroboard members have excluded him from their future purchases. But the fact still is he may have already signed up as a new member...



I don't think the seller was banned


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

jeffr said:


> I don't think the seller was banned


I know he wasn't banned. But I believe after this no one will want to buy from him for a while, so in a sense, if he wanted to sell again it would be easier for him to just start a new membership. But I know he wasn't banned, I wasn't trying to be a dummy  sorry in advance.


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

that guy may have multiple profiles on here, he may be reading this thread and laughing that he screwed some people over and wont do anything about it except spend their money. This is going to sound like a lot im sure but you could always cross check anyones contact and/or location info with this guys to see if theres any chance a purchase could be coming from him.


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

Copied from the original ad...

Dartguy41
Zach Hamilton
Marietta, OH
[email protected]


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## rgwheels (Feb 19, 2008)

Agreed checking around is a good idea. I just feel bad for someone who just starts and gets duped. Thanks for posting the original add.



guylovesreef said:


> that guy may have multiple profiles on here, he may be reading this thread and laughing that he screwed some people over and wont do anything about it except spend their money. This is going to sound like a lot im sure but you could always cross check anyones contact and/or location info with this guys to see if theres any chance a purchase could be coming from him.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

If you can wait until September, I'd be happy to send you some froglets for the cost of shipping.


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

JeremyHuff said:


> If you can wait until September, I'd be happy to send you some froglets for the cost of shipping.


And a live arrival guarantee!


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

awesome, Thank you!


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

Epikmuffin said:


> awesome, Thank you!


You are welcome. Just drop me a line near the end of august and we can start looking at shipping temps.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Epikmuffin...

Just wondering if you contacted your credit/debit card issuer and if they're going to help you? I'm really hoping you follow through with this. Please don't let that dirtbag keep your money and get away with this.


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## Epikmuffin (May 9, 2012)

WendySHall said:


> Epikmuffin...
> 
> Just wondering if you contacted your credit/debit card issuer and if they're going to help you? I'm really hoping you follow through with this. Please don't let that dirtbag keep your money and get away with this.


Yeah I contacted my credit card, and they are in a process of investigate. They said it could take up to 60 days, so will see how it goes


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Good luck! Let us know what they decide.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks, Epikmuffin! You are not only standing up for yourself, but also helping out everyone here. Just remember to keep everything until it's all over...the link to the ad, the pictures you took, his correspondence with you...everything...just in case you need it.

And yes...please keep us informed as to the outcome. My fingers are crossed for you!!!


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

out of curiosity, and not reading through all 12 pages but has the seller made any comment in this thread, he/she has to know its out there.


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## repking26 (Mar 12, 2012)

bsr8129 said:


> out of curiosity, and not reading through all 12 pages but has the seller made any comment in this thread, he/she has to know its out there.


I don't think so. I went through the thread and didn't see any posts by Dartguy41.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

For future reference in this and other threads:

at the top of this thread click the "search this thread" button... then "advanced search"

You can search by user name. If nothing pops up, he didnt post... simple as that


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

just thought id pop this in again..


Dartguy41
Zach Hamilton
Marietta, OH
[email protected] 


DO NOT BUY FROM THIS GUY EVER!!!


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

Best of luck Epik, Keep the updates coming!


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is what the Vendor Feedback area is for.

You need a few more posts and you'll be able to peruse it. If you have any doubts in the meantime - feel free to ask me, privately.

s


JayMillz said:


> Can any of you veteran members PM me any names or lists of shippers with similar shady or unethical ediquette? I'd like to avoid a situation like muffin had.


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## [email protected] (Mar 19, 2009)

JeremyHuff said:


> If you can wait until September, I'd be happy to send you some froglets for the cost of shipping.


And that is a completely DIFFERENT approach than the original seller. 

This is how you win customer favor, build a customer base, and enhance reputation. Nice offer Jeremy!


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