# aroids(Alocasia) and maximum size



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I plan on using a 46 gallon bowfront as a paludarium of sorts. I'm thinking of including an Alocasia or similar plant in it if I go South American. I particularly like Alocasia 'Polly', but it is said to get to 18 inches in height(too big for my tank which is under a foot and a half tall). If I planted one would I be forced to expect it to be scraping the ceiling some time later? Any Alocasia or similar big leaved plant that gets anywhere from 6-12 inches in height? It would be awesome if it produced leaves that could provide "shade" or platforms instead of being almost vertical like Alocasia 'Polly'


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Alocasias are a hard bunch to get that stay small. Some that you may be interested in (that still get pretty bug but not "Polly" size) would be...

A. corazon
A. rugosa
A. sanderiana "Nobilis"
A. Black Velvet
A. Frydek
A. "Tiffany"

Another one thats similar but stays small is Caladium "Mini White". This particular plant only gets like 8" tall and has the same shaped leaves as many Alocasias. Hard to find sometimes though.

Good luck.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Alocasias in general average 4'+ heights, so getting true dwarf species and hybrids that stay 18" or under is a feat! While I've seen some of the ones listed say they may get only a foot, most of my references have them as smallest 18-24". 

Yes, the Alocasia would end up smashing against the top of your tank, and eventually pushing your lid off. Some say you can just trim them, but they don't have many leaves to begin with, and honestly its better planning just to get a plant that fits in your tank in the first place :roll: 

I'm not really sure what look you're going for so its hard for me to recomend a replacement other than the 'mini white' already mentioned (beware, sometimes it randomly goes dormant, but no worries! It will return, Caladiums just tend to do that).


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2006)

Syngonium is a more drab cousin, same family, same look, much smaller. Technically its a vine, but can be trimmed to look like Alocasia.
There, I've pushed Syngonium twice tonight. You'd think I was trying to sell the stuff.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And I'm giving the same answer twice tonight in response to yours lol.

As said in other thread (man, Khamul1of9, we've got to stop meeting this way, lol), there are self heading varieties of sygonium, basically meaning they stay in a bushy clump instead of going on a vining rampage all over your tank (and yes, I like that saying enough I used it twice, its a great description for non-selfheading syngs!). Unfortunately I don't have my reference with me, but I believe they are the tetraploid varieties... basic deal with syngoniums, especially the Allusions series, is that for every non-tetrapliod variety, there is a tetraploid variety (just about). They will have different names, and slightly different leaf shapes (more rounded I believe with the tetraploids) to go with the different growth types.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Thanks all for the replies!

I'm basically looking for a decently sized, full rosette plant to take up some space in the paludarium and provide a place for the frogs to hang out. Spathyphillum willisi(peace lily) or a baby alocasia  fits the frame I want. Interesting leaves is a plus. 

Not sure on the Snygonium. I read some stuff that the arrow shaped leaves are the juvenile foliage and you must routinely cut the climbing stems to prevent the adult(5 leaflet) foliage from coming in. This refers to S. polygonum. Is it true for all Snygonium? If I did use them I wouldn't use an Alocasia as a rosette plant as IMHO it would look funny, would need a different leaf shape. 

A. sanderia 'Nobilis' is nice but again a site states they get to 2 ft. Any personal experience as to otherwise? Are their different clones of this?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Dendrobait said:


> A. sanderia 'Nobilis' is nice but again a site states they get to 2 ft. Any personal experience as to otherwise? Are their different clones of this?


Yeah, it can get that big. They all can except for A. rugosa. I don't think I've seen A. rugosa get taller than 12", but I've only seen 1 or 2 adult (looking) plants. The ones I carry are in 3" pots and usually are about 8" tall with like 3 or 4 stems and leaves.

I have a Caladium "Mini White" but I just have the one. I'll see if I can get more. I don't think they are that expensive.

A. "Black Velvet" is supposed to stay "small" (maybe 18" max) so is A. "Tiffany". I'll do some more digging.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

All the smallest Alocsia I've seen on the market are min 12-18"... The variety you wanted originally being one of the smallest, the smallest being "maturing" at between 12-18" depending on how its grown, and in a tank it'd be more towards the 18".

I've never had the syngonium go beyond juvie stage in a tank... they'd need a totem, or likely a tree, to get to the mature stage where the leaves would change. I've never had the self heading varieties go beyond a small bush, I don't even know if they *can* mature... thanks to weird genetics and the lack of trailing and climbing, I don't know how they'd doing the climbing thing required for them to hit the mature stage... either way its nothing to worry about in tanks... pothos and philos don't mature in our tanks either (thankfully, I don't need pothos leaves the size of an umbrella in my tanks!). The prob is I think the tertraploids still get a bit over a foot tall.

I think the mini white might be your best bet if you want to keep that leaf shape... the smallest spath cultivar I know of is 12-18"... pain to get ahold of it tho... and its less likely than the alocasia to put your lid off, at least until it flowered... if you like the look of the spaths then check out the smaller anubias and Cryptocorynes, they are semi-aquatics like spaths with similar habits and leaf type. Black Jungle sells a couple of the smaller varieties for terrariums that you would be interested in.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2006)

I picked up a syngonium today actually. Cute little white plant. Also a caladium. Dont know what I'm going to do with it, I just got it because I liked it :lol:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

What I've been doing with my Alocsia is let a leaf or two touch the top of the tank and once I start to see a new leaf or two sprout, then I trim the largest leaves out. This keeps the plants with around five leaves and in an ok height range. They still end up reaching the top of the tank, but they can be kept under control. I've managed to bring one of mine back from only having one leaf so I'm going to venture to say they do ok being trimmed a bit.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2006)

defaced said:


> What I've been doing with my Alocsia is let a leaf or two touch the top of the tank and once I start to see a new leaf or two sprout, then I trim the largest leaves out. This keeps the plants with around five leaves and in an ok height range. They still end up reaching the top of the tank, but they can be kept under control. I've managed to bring one of mine back from only having one leaf so I'm going to venture to say they do ok being trimmed a bit.


I do the same thing with Sygoniums. Also I could if I wanted to cut all the leaves off forcing the plant to start anew with little leaves.
Corey, I've never had Syngonium mature for me either in any situation. What it did do once was it started vining on me, a good 6 feet in two months or less. Other wise it usually plays nice and stays as a self header type.
I've never tried Caladium, it looks so much like SYngonium. Why are they in different genera?
Oh and Corey, I disagree, if we stop meeting like this, then well...we will end up not meeting anymore :wink: .


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Any idea how big peperomia maypurensis gets? Seems to somewhat fit the shape I'm looking for. 

Spaths get that big? I've never seen it...I guess they are smaller due to house plant conditions.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2006)

Hi I have both Alocasia Rugosa and Polly for sale at 3 for $12.00 if you need some.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I still say you guys should be fitting your plant selection to accurately fit your tank, not physically taking a plant thats not appropriate and forcing it! We shouldn't do it with our frogs, and shouldn't do it with the plants either...

To quote from the latest cargo report: "_Peperomia maypurensis_ A stunning species that we collected near Pto. Ayacucho, Venezuela. Reaching 12in across..."

Going by the pic and growth habit I'd assume at least 12" tall, up to 18" in bloom like pictured.

Different Spath varieties get different sizes, the smallest being 12-18". up to the larger 36-52" variety ('Deneve') and all sorts in between. If the variety you pick up is blooming in a 4-6" contianer, its one of the miniature varieties.

Syngoniums and caladiums seem to come from different types of rainforest - syngoniums from the more consistant weathered rainforests, while caladiums come from the more seasonal (think flooding) amazon. Caladiums seem to be a better landscape plant than a terrarium plant in many cases, and even with consistant tank conditions, the plant will die back to just a tuber, to regrow again a couple month later - not a great plant if you're looking for one that's going to be around all year! They are fun for "seasonal variation" in a tank tho. They probibly also have different flowers and such which is another reason they are seperated.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> *I still say you guys should be fitting your plant selection to accurately fit your tank, not physically taking a plant thats not appropriate and forcing it! We shouldn't do it with our frogs, and shouldn't do it with the plants either...*
> 
> To quote from the latest cargo report: "_Peperomia maypurensis_ A stunning species that we collected near Pto. Ayacucho, Venezuela. Reaching 12in across..."
> 
> ...


Then you might want to let all of your frogs go back to the wild or provide them with a 2 acre size viv. :? 

There is nothing wrong with trimming plants IMO. People in the reef and aquarium hobby do the same thing. Why can't we?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Its one thing to me to trim a spreading, vining, or creeping plant... but our tanks are the smallest possible requirements to keep the frogs happy, and I hate seeing that we can't to the same with some of these plants... a tank 3-6" taller would be perfectly fine - fits the minimum requirements of that plant. "Trimming" to me means controlling the spread of the plant - I bet the trimming in reefs is the organisms spreading and you keeping them in check. They have their minimum needs met, they are happy, so they spread, and we trim/cull them so they don't take over. The alocasia mentioned earlier does not even get its minimum height need.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Its one thing to me to trim a spreading, vining, or creeping plant... but our tanks are the smallest possible requirements to keep the frogs happy, and I hate seeing that we can't to the same with some of these plants... a tank 3-6" taller would be perfectly fine - fits the minimum requirements of that plant. "Trimming" to me means controlling the spread of the plant - I bet the trimming in reefs is the organisms spreading and you keeping them in check. They have their minimum needs met, they are happy, so they spread, and we trim/cull them so they don't take over. The alocasia mentioned earlier does not even get its minimum height need.


So whats the difference in minimum height vs. minimum length? Spreading is a way for many corals to reach their max size. Same for many species of algae like Cualerpa. What about Riccia? Same principle if you ask me.

Edit: For that matter, what about the Bonsai hobby? They trim to stunt the growth of these trees and bushes. How do you feel about that?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That I can't keep a bonsai alive for the life of me - and I think the bonsai practice is a bit different than trimming an alocasia. Anyways, I like my trees big... and you're not stunting the alocasia (like bonsai) by cutting off its largest leaf to keep it from pushing off your lid, Alocasia don't work that way. I'm not fond of bonsaied figs used in vivs (but thats more because I don't like fig trees), but you can bonsai them where most of the epiphytic tropicals we use (which are the tiny of the tiny compared to relatives usually) it just doesn't work that way. Like having a _Vriesea splendens_ in a 10 gallon... not going to happen unless you cut half of the leaf length off... that doesn't "bonsai"/miniaturize it, just cuts the leaves off, and a smaller cultivar/species of brom would be more appropriate.

And in the end... its opinion. If you brought up stunting frogs to have minis of a certain kind just to have them in a smaller tank I could only imagine the flame war that would ensue :shock:


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I'm probably too lazy to do be willing to give that a try but wouldn't clipping the largest leaves of the Alocasia or whatever weaken the plant and thus make it form smaller leaves?

I think unless one pops up that maxes out at under a foot for now I'll forget including a "large" rosette plant in the tank.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I wouldn't think clipping the leaves would harm the plant b/c thats just that much less energy and food the plant has to provide for its self. As a matter of fact, Alocasias are particularly good at growing new stems and leaves. One of the common things you'll see when people grow them in cell trays is that when they treat them for fungus or whatever, they'll spray the entire tray and then pinch the stems/leaves off completely to where there is nothing but the roots and base of the plant. 1 week later, new growth appears. No harm done at all.

You might want to look into Alocasia rugosa. I have yet to see one taller than 14".


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Drifting a bit from rosette plants...how about just decently sized foliage? I know a few viviarum related sites stock a few Monstera(cloud jungle has a species as the featured plant right now). Do these stay in the range of a 46 gallon bowfront?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Many Monsteras are, well... MONSTERous. That particular species I'm not too sure about but I'm sure if you email Harry, he could tell you.

One I know for sure that would be okay is Raphidophora tetrasperma (sometimes called Amydrium and used to be called Monstera). They have nice big leaves yet don't go CRAZY in the viv. They actually grow kinda slow in my experience.


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