# New to PDFs.... Vivarium Planning and Questions



## Warren B (Dec 13, 2010)

Hello people of Dendroboards. As can be told from the title, I am new to PDF keeping (Not new to animal keeping, however. I have multiple spiders.  )

But spiders... basically like keeping pet rocks. It seems PDFs have much more complex care.

Anyway, I have been planning on a vivarium for quite a while, and I've finally gotten around to drawing basic plans.










It will be a normal 20 gallon tank, measuring 24"x13"x17". I plan on stocking it with small bromeliads, pothos, pilea, ferns and moss. What species of plants would you suuggest? Are there any vine plants that would grow along the back wall? Also, how would one plant these plants in the wall? 

Also, the waterfall would be something like this:










Does that make sense to set it up like that? What kind of pump should I use? The water layer will be around 3".

I think that's all the questions I have for now... don't know what sp. I'll put in it yet.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Everyone wants to do a water feature in their first tank, and many do, but in my honest opinion I'd save the water feature for a large tank, one that you will have more experience for. A 20g tank isn't very big to begin with and a large water feature cuts down drastically on the available space for the frogs (they don't need one). I'd recommend keeping this tank nice and simple, and learning how to keep these animals well. Then, when you have more experience, I'd get a nice sized tank, plan it out well, and go crazy. That's just my 2 cents.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree that the frogs will need more land vs moving water. I like to have water in mine, for looks and to give me access to the bottom so I can siphon if the water level gets too high. So, I make a small pond in one corner. 

If you do decide to do a water fall, maybe scale it back a little to give the frogs more land. They 'can' swim but they aren't water frogs. They'll spend their time on dry land.


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## Warren B (Dec 13, 2010)

Alright... considering this is going to be my first vivarium, I'd like the frogs to be as comfortable as possible. Would a setup like this be better?
The water area would somewhat resemble a half moon shape when looked at from above.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I would say yes. Just make sure they can easily get out of the water. Maybe toss a piece of wood or rock or something in that area to give them another land piece if they end up in the water.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

frogface said:


> I would say yes. Just make sure they can easily get out of the water. Maybe toss a piece of wood or rock or something in that area to give them another land piece if they end up in the water.


Agreed. But just remember, its a waste of space so unless you reaaalllly want it, then you're better off without it. Well, unless you have frogs that could make use of it for their tads, ex. Tricolors


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## Warren B (Dec 13, 2010)

Okay... so the uselessness of the water and the danger it poses to the frogs... The water's a no-go. At least I'll have more time to spend on the furnishings. 

How would one plant plants in the back wall? Can I just carve a hole out of the GS foam and put the plant in there?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes, you can carve the GS. You can also GS pots into the background. What I ended up doing was just attaching plants to the GS with pieces of floral wire, cut into a U shape. Broms can be attached by sticking the stolon in the GS or by making a cradle out of toothpicks or something similar. 

You might also consider doing a clay background. It's all the rage and I won't be going back to GS after using it. 

If you don't make a pond, make sure to design some way to get to the water so the water level can be kept below the substrate.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Spend a night going through all 300 pages of the members vivariums pages and just by reading those, you'll get all the ideas you need, as well as the building process.

I too wanted a water feature in my first tank and everyone told me the same things they are telling you, and I'm glad they did. I'm already on my 4th viv, and haven't made a water feature yet.


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## Mitch (Jun 18, 2010)

Check my old build thread out for the GS pots idea.


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## Warren B (Dec 13, 2010)

I've been reading through the vivarium pages for a while, and I must say, a lot of you are freaking talented.

frogface: I've been hearing about the clay backgrounds, but it looks like clay is extremely heavy, which might be a bad thing if I plan on moving the viv. Also, I keep some of my more humidity loving scorps on false bottom setups, so I know about getting the water to the drainage layer.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

you could also take the time, effort, and $ that a water feature would have cost and make a dripwall, which will support lush growth on your background!

as far as plants, you cant really put that much in a 20. scratch the pothos, its a VIGOROUS grower and will create a headache. it also doesnt look as good once you put it in the tank. if your set on a plant that looks like that there are a few small varieties of plants from the same family, available from online vendors. one large fern (like "ET") would be a nice plant, or some small epiphytic fern on the BG. ferns can be temperamental and many dont like water to stand on the leaves. there are a ton of pileas, some get big, and quick. the commonly available varieties like pilea mollis (moon valley) are like this and tend to out grow tanks fairly quickly. they can be very tiny as well like pilea microphylla. just make sure you get a small growing variety. and broms, depending on the frog, they will be either a necessity, a luxury, or useless. obligate egg feeders, like pumilio, rely on bromiliads for tadpole rearing (although they can use other objects this is IMO a necessity). facultative egg feeders like most thumbnails, dont need bromiliads since eggs can be removed from the tank and raised artificially, however given the chance the frogs will readily use broms. the third type of frog does not feed its offspring (tincs, auratus, leucs, etc) and will not use broms for breeding. IMO these animals shouldnt have broms in their enclosures, unless its of reasonably large size, unless they are of a miniature "decorative" variety. broms can block out a lot of light in a small tank.

james


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

oneshot said:


> Spend a night going through all 300 pages of the members vivariums pages and just by reading those, you'll get all the ideas you need, as well as the building process.
> 
> I too wanted a water feature in my first tank and everyone told me the same things they are telling you, and I'm glad they did. I'm already on my 4th viv, and haven't made a water feature yet.


I love doing tanks with a simple water feature, like a forked treestump with water pumped over it and trickling down. And the frogs utilize the space, if it's more like a "wet area" than a "pond". This can be done with a very small pump. I've got 5 tanks.......2 20s with no water, and a 20, 30, and 40 with water features. The plants go crazy in the tanks with the water! It's certainly not "necesarry, but I think it makes the tanks so much more interesting!


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## Warren B (Dec 13, 2010)

james67 said:


> you could also take the time, effort, and $ that a water feature would have cost and make a dripwall, which will support lush growth on your background!
> 
> as far as plants, you cant really put that much in a 20. scratch the pothos, its a VIGOROUS grower and will create a headache. it also doesnt look as good once you put it in the tank. if your set on a plant that looks like that there are a few small varieties of plants from the same family, available from online vendors. one large fern (like "ET") would be a nice plant, or some small epiphytic fern on the BG. ferns can be temperamental and many dont like water to stand on the leaves. there are a ton of pileas, some get big, and quick. the commonly available varieties like pilea mollis (moon valley) are like this and tend to out grow tanks fairly quickly. they can be very tiny as well like pilea microphylla. just make sure you get a small growing variety. and broms, depending on the frog, they will be either a necessity, a luxury, or useless. obligate egg feeders, like pumilio, rely on bromiliads for tadpole rearing (although they can use other objects this is IMO a necessity). facultative egg feeders like most thumbnails, dont need bromiliads since eggs can be removed from the tank and raised artificially, however given the chance the frogs will readily use broms. the third type of frog does not feed its offspring (tincs, auratus, leucs, etc) and will not use broms for breeding. IMO these animals shouldnt have broms in their enclosures, unless its of reasonably large size, unless they are of a miniature "decorative" variety. broms can block out a lot of light in a small tank.
> 
> james


Alright, so no go on the pothos. I'll most probably get D. leucomelas, but I like the look of bromeliads and might get one of the miniature variety.



lincolnrailers said:


> I love doing tanks with a simple water feature, like a forked treestump with water pumped over it and trickling down. And the frogs utilize the space, if it's more like a "wet area" than a "pond". This can be done with a very small pump. I've got 5 tanks.......2 20s with no water, and a 20, 30, and 40 with water features. The plants go crazy in the tanks with the water! It's certainly not "necesarry, but I think it makes the tanks so much more interesting!


I hope to add a water feature in a future tank, but I'd like to get some experience before creating more elaborate stuff.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I have a 3 leucs in a tank with nothing but pothos and a bromeliad (and some stuff in the pond). But, it is a 30 gallon tank. I agree that a 20 gallon is small to fill with pothos.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

It's grow in a bit. Here it is tonight. This is after trimming the pothos back. It can grow out of hand if you don't watch it. I've heard it can lift the lids right off the tank. 

I don't think there's any problem if you want to use some in your tank. I just wouldn't advise doing what I did. They hog the whole place


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

i'm seconding the idea of the drip system. i put a water feature in my last viv and all of the plants seem to thrive waaay more on the portion of the wall that has running water over it. 

viv that's in work has a tiny submersible pump and a PVC pipe w/ a bunch of tiny holes drilled in it for a continual drip. I'm hoping this will help keep the plants happy. 

whatever you do, make sure you test fit everything before you start siliconing or greatstuffing it in place. its no fun to tear these things apart once they're built. Also, if you do end up using a pump of some kind. make sure you can pull it out w/o destroying your tank if something goes wrong. that's a hard lesson to have to learn.

also, you may want to look into the clay. I was worried about the weight too, but i just mudded up a 20 gal on two walls and its not that bad. I can easily move it by myself.

good luck! read lots of build journals!

-brett


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## Warren B (Dec 13, 2010)

Thanks for the replies everyone, I'll defintely install a drip wall. I'll think about clay in the future, I just bought 2 cans of great stuff, probably more than I need.  

Question, once the GS is dried, is it submersible in water? Or would I have to keep it above the drainage level?


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

make sure you wear gloves with the great stuff!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

You can submerse GS in water.


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