# Buying proven pairs



## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

What have been your guys' experience when buying very proven pairs in terms of them breeding when you got them? I have heard that once PDFs start breeding they shouldn't be moved. I am more interested in the dendrobates species perticularly tincs. But any insight would be appreciated.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

I bought a pair of proven escudos, and I haven't even heard a chirp in the month I've had them. I am not invading their privacy, and trying to be patient. That being said it's hard to know if you are getting a pair? And if you KNOW and seen for your self, I've moved a pair from a tank on 6/15 and I now have a froglet oow in the new tank yesterday


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## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

I bought a proven group of vittatus. 5.5.0. They only took about a month or so to throw their first clutch. I had calling within a week. I don't know if this is abnormal, ut that's my only experience on the subject.

Mark


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## davidadelp (Sep 29, 2010)

I bought a very proven pair of azureus about a month ago and havent gotten any eggs, seen any mating behaviors or calling. It is aggervating i do know that!! but patients is what is key i guess which i have very little of lol


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Tincts usually take a few months to settle down.

Pumilios usually will breed within a week of being in a new tank if conditions are right.


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

The Leucs took 6 weeks to lay after being moved three times due to an enclosure failure. They are a young pair that had only thrown 4 clutches previously.

The Bakhuis won't be here for two more weeks so I can't speak about them.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Something to keep in mind , just because a pair breeds for one owner does not mean they will breed for another. These are live animals and not machines, keep that in mind.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

Okay, so not a proven pair. However, I did buy a proven male to put in with a previously suspected female azureus. Calling within maybe 2 minutes of being together and eggs within a matter of days. I bought the male locally from another frogger kind enough to part with him, which may make a difference since there was no shipping stress.


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

Bought a probable pair of Bakhuis from proven group when i went to pick them up at the pomona reptile show they had already laid a clutch in the cup they were in but turned out to be infertile. put them in a temporary 18x18x18 exo for 2-3 weeks nothing. just placed them in a 10g this week and have had 2 clutches of eggs so far. 2 clutches in a week. also im running my mister more often so the tank is staying more moist compared to the exo.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

The barometric change from shipping can jump start or stop breeding.

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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

I'd add this caveat as well, if the "Proven Pair" is several years old, they may be not producing anymore, and unscrupulous people will sell them off as "proven". If you really want proven pairs, a very reliable source is Patrick Nabors at saurian.net


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## MSteele (Jun 30, 2004)

i have had mixed results,,, i had a proven pair of cobalts that never laid for me and i had a proven female introduced to my male and on the same day i had eggs. and the eggs were all good, i think i have close to 8-0 tads off these guys to date.


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## DCreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

Iv purchased proven pairs in the past and some have bred for me like clock work and some have not. I always ask to see photos of their previous set up. I noticed that if the frogs come from a tank that is larger, wetter, and has more cover and moves into a much less elaborate enclosure they will be unhappy with the conditions and put a hold on breeding. Once discovering that my set up might be a bit to simple for them I change some things around sometimes add or subtract something to copy their previous conditions and they start right up.

i think its all about reaching a level of comfort and happiness. if something isn't broken don't fix it.


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## Steve88W (Jan 21, 2011)

My pair of Azureus from Patrick Nabors started breeding within an hour of being introduced to their new tank.
First clutch was fertile! (3 morphed out)


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## NVfrogger (Apr 10, 2011)

I purchased a proven pair waited and waited never heard any calling or saw any eggs. Months later I put another male in the tank and the "proven pair" tuned out to be two females, now isn't that just amazing?


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

While I personally have never bought a proven pair before,Ill back up some things that other people have said. 

Quote from Bill Schwinn
Something to keep in mind , just because a pair breeds for one owner does not mean they will breed for another. These are live animals and not machines, keep that in mind. 
I agree with differences in setup including temps and humidity plus feedings. Just because they breed for one person doesnt mean they will definitely breed for the next

Quote from Julio
Tincts usually take a few months to settle down.

I agree here. Dendrobates tinctorius can take some time to settle. Especially the females.
That said I had a pair drop a clutch the same day I brought them home.

Quote from Lincolnrailers
I'd add this caveat as well, if the "Proven Pair" is several years old, they may be not producing anymore, and unscrupulous people will sell them off as "proven". If you really want proven pairs, a very reliable source is Patrick Nabors at saurian.net 
I disagree with this to a point. 
For the most part dart frogs will breed till up until they die. HOWEVER....they may not breed well. They may lay less eggs and less often.
Also to my knowledge. Patrick does not sell proven pairs unless he has changed that?


Todd


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

I also got a "sexed" pair of tincs from Patrick Nabors at Saurian. They were courting the same day I added them to my new viv. But I'd imagine it depends on a lot of factors...shipping trauma, viv conditions, feeding, etc...


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## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

billschwinn said:


> Something to keep in mind , just because a pair breeds for one owner does not mean they will breed for another. These are live animals and not machines, keep that in mind.


Yeah, I have had some for 3 years and no breeding(real sad face)Have another nice pair almost 15 months later got 1 froglet. Some may never breed for you. Doesn't mean jack though, there are some things we just can't always provide.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

I paid a pretty penny 5 years ago for a proven pair of azureus from a very reputable breeder. The two frogs were very distinctly different in body shape and they certainly spent many days together in the coco hut and chasing each other around. They just never seemed to produce eggs and only rarely could I hear the male calling.

A few weeks ago I noticed my female was acting strange. I watched her closely and discovered she was calling.... She is a he I guess.

So, before you shell out the big bucks, understand there is a difference between "proven" and "sexed" pairs.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

NVfrogger said:


> I purchased a proven pair waited and waited never heard any calling or saw any eggs. Months later I put another male in the tank and the "proven pair" tuned out to be two females, now isn't that just amazing?





holidayhanson said:


> I paid a pretty penny 5 years ago for a proven pair of azureus from a very reputable breeder. The two frogs were very distinctly different in body shape and they certainly spent many days together in the coco hut and chasing each other around. They just never seemed to produce eggs and only rarely could I hear the male calling.
> 
> A few weeks ago I noticed my female was acting strange. I watched her closely and discovered she was calling.... She is a he I guess.
> 
> So, before you shell out the big bucks, understand there is a difference between "proven" and "sexed" pairs.


Situations like that are one of the few topics that really get me legitimately pissed in this hobby. 

Those are things I would personally give negative vendor feedback for if the seller didn't fix it ASAP (obviously you guys couldn't, just speaking in general). A proven pair is a proven pair and stuff like this really irks me.... it's COMPLETELY shady and really is a huge load of BS. Even if the seller did compensate me, I still wouldn't buy anything from that person again and would make it a point to share the story liberally. 

Pretty much the only thing that isn't 100% lying is when two frogs are taken from a proven group and sexed- but then they shouldn't be advertised as a proven pair, so it's still utterly weak sauce and still deserves compensation IMO. 

Buying a probable pair is a different issue, as there is room for discretion & error..... in "proven pair" cases, it's total dishonesty and bad business practice. 

When buying proven pairs, I personally think holding off on feedback until you're convinced they are at least male/female is the way to go. If the seller was truthful, he gets his positive feedback anyways, albeit with a bit of a delay. If he lied, he loses quite a bit of business. It's one of the few ways (along with spreading the news) we can combat indecency and the selfish idiots who feel like they can get away with it. 

As sad as it is to say, without incentives for doing right and punishments for doing wrong, there will always be some bad apples out there ready to backstab a fellow hobbyist for a few extra bucks. F*** that, and shame on the fools who pull crap like that.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

You are completely correct. I bought a "proven pair" of leucs from someone. He claimed "they have laid perfect clutches for me". After 6 months, I contacted Patrick Nabors for a sexed male. The male from Patrick started calling a few weeks later. When he calls, the other 2 will wrestle sometimes, and since they have never called, I'd but quite a bit of money that my "proven pair" were both females. I definitely never will buy from that guy again, because I think he was lying to make a buck. This was a guy who advertised on dendroboard a lot last year, but I haven't seen much out of him lately. Anyone who wants his name can PM me, but I would definitely label him as unscrupulous, and untrustworthy.



tclipse said:


> Situations like that are one of the few topics that really get me legitimately pissed in this hobby.
> 
> Those are things I would personally give negative vendor feedback for if the seller didn't fix it ASAP (obviously you guys couldn't, just speaking in general). A proven pair is a proven pair and stuff like this really irks me.... it's COMPLETELY shady and really is a huge load of BS. Even if the seller did compensate me, I still wouldn't buy anything from that person again and would make it a point to share the story liberally.
> 
> ...


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I believe that the same guy that got Lincolnrailers also got me. I bought a proven pair as well as a proven trio for quite a bit of money. The pair were emaciated and one died in less than 3 weeks. The trio looked fine, but one of them also died a couple of months later. I've also heard from a reputable breeder/sponsor that the frogs that he purchased from this person just withered away and died. I also had numerous pms from other hobbyists that have had bad dealings with him. 

As Lincolnrailers said...if you would like the name, just pm...I would be happy to share. I wish more people would do the same when they have a bad deal. It makes no sense to hide it. Just think...if someone before you would have said something, perhaps you wouldn't have lost the money/emotional investment that you did. I know I would've saved myself $600+ and shopped elsewhere if I had been forewarned.

BTW...I also highly recommend Pat Nabors for sexed pairs.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

If you are new to the hobby, I'd do A LOT of research before you buy "proven pairs" or "sexed pairs".....read through the forum posts, and you can figure out who to trust......but again, I think no one in the hobby sells more sexed pairs than Patrick Nabors......

And I'll repeat again, for "newer" members, if you are buying a "proven pair", you'd better make darned sure they aren't getting old and have been overbred, or they won't breed for you, proven or not.........better off getting a "sexed pair" that has not bred, because at least they are young enough to produce well some day......


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

True, but if your new to the hobby whats the rush to get proven or sexed pairs? Has everyone forgotten the fact that most of us learned buying up groups of froglets and raising them? Learning behavior patterns, sexing, courting, feeding, housing, and all the rest of it. There is alot to learn by new hobbyists and rushing to get eggs, tads and all that mess is something that will leave you with a thousand questions like someone who bought up a group of clown trees claiming to be an expert and then asked, asked, asked and had the entire board give them the step by step on how to breed his frogs. People buying up provens and sexed pairs forget the basics are still needed like qt and testing due to the fact they are in a rush to breed.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

First, let me say... I read (still read) A LOT every day and have from day 1. After being here over a year, I am still learning new things or rethinking what I thought before. Everyone should do this before getting a frog of any age.

Okay...now for those who've studied (lol)...

I don't think there's anything "bad" about wanting to start with a proven or sexed pair. These are older frogs who can withstand more than a tiny froglet can. Also (in my head) starting with a pair who is likely to breed in the not-so-far future lets you experience EVERYTHING from stage one. You get eggs, then tads, then froglets... it's truly exciting going through each stage.

But...it doesn't always turn out the way you imagine...

My first frogs were a 7 month-old sexed pair. I love the breeder and do think it was simply a mistake, but it has taken the better part of a year to figure out they were both female. I've just recently gotten a male and have started breeding them...but still no luck with the eggs.

Since, I have purchased many sexed/proven pairs/singles and it's tough! Sometimes they won't breed. Sometimes they were sexed wrong. Sometimes (as above) you just get a bad frog from someone. It's a lot of money spent on hoping.

I've since decided that while I may purchase some sexed pairs from people I know I can trust, I've got to be more careful and money-conscious. I think I'm better off raising up my own froglets whenever possible. This way I know their ages for sure, I know that they've been well-fed and well-supplemented, and I know if they are for sure male and female. (You wouldn't believe how many people are well-intentioned but very bad at this.)


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

All I can say on this is I generally buy groups of froglets and grow them up myself, sex them, pair them, breed them, keep what I want and trade/sell the rest. This has worked best for me. I have purchased sexed as well as proven pairs from the big breeders with mixed results, I have had the best results growing them up and sexing/breeding them myself as said earlier just because they breed for me does not mean they will breed the same for you. That being said I will not sell pairs as proven until they have given me "4" good clutches of eggs and generally wait until one clutch has morphed. I have been doing this for ten plus years and it works for me you just need to grow them up and let nature take it's own course. 



Scott


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> True, but if your new to the hobby whats the rush to get proven or sexed pairs? Has everyone forgotten the fact that most of us learned buying up groups of froglets and raising them? Learning behavior patterns, sexing, courting, feeding, housing, and all the rest of it. There is alot to learn by new hobbyists and rushing to get eggs, tads and all that mess is something that will leave you with a thousand questions like someone who bought up a group of clown trees claiming to be an expert and then asked, asked, asked and had the entire board give them the step by step on how to breed his frogs. People buying up provens and sexed pairs forget the basics are still needed like qt and testing due to the fact they are in a rush to breed.


Totally agree......I kept a group of young auratus (6 green/bronze) for over a year before I got a pair to breed. 3 years later, I still have all 6 green/bronze auratus in a 40 gallon breeder, and they have never laid eggs.....although I did hear calling once!


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

Just put my input I just got a breeding Vent trio last week and now I got 25 eggs as of today

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