# 65g Paludarium w/ waterfall and bog - build log



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I'll be tracking this build here, with lots of pics. Currently I have some heat shaped acrylic and egg crate defining the land and water sections. Left side will be land with its own drainage area, right back corner will be the waterfall flowing into the bog area, which shares drainage with the water area.



















In case those images don't work (I seem to be having issues with inline images), here are links:
60g tank front
60g tank overhead

I'll be using DAP Commercial Kitchen 100% Silicone to adhere the acrylic to the tank, based on this video: 



 Both sections will overflow into a waste bucket that won't recirculate into the tank, and the tank water will be refreshed regularly with distilled water by the MistKing misting system. I'm also setting up a bio-filtration area under the bog with EpiWeb. I'll be recirculating water within the water area using a ZooMed 20g Paludarium Filter to create the waterfall feature.

The tree sections are cedar and will be partially submerged. I'll cover the submerged acrylic and egg crate with Hygrolon (a lot of this stuff I just have laying around, hazards of being an orchid grower I guess) and encourage aquatic plants and mosses to root into it. The waterfall will be Great Stuff/natural rocks, and I might do some of that in the submerged area as well. I think I'll use the Exo Terra rock background that came with the tank, but add heat-shaped PVC vines covered in Hygrolon for depth and rooting areas.

I'm looking at buying a Current Satellite Plus Pro 36" lighting system, the adjustable light temperature and storm feature really piqued my interest.

The tank will have lots of intermediate mini orchids, the bog section will be for small semi-highland carnivorous plants, and I'm thinking blue cherry shrimp and maybe vampire crabs in the water. Based on my old tank, temps should be 70/80 summer and 58/75 winter, so anything in the water also needs to tolerate those temps and night drops. I have a Peltier junction heater/cooler with fans that my dad built for my old tank, controlled by a ZooMed Hygrotherm. I'll probably have vent fans blowing down the tank doors also controlled by the Hygrotherm for when humidity gets too high.

Here's a link to my intended plant and animal list if anyone is interested.

Next step: drill bulkheads and silicone in the acrylic. I have a diamond hole saw on the way but I'm still really nervous about drilling into my new, expensive tank. It's currently in the 30s (F) outside, and I'm not sure if the freezing air + freezing water will be an issue for drilling.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Interesting build. I like the bending of the egg crate. That helps to eliminate one of my usual complaints about paludaria - that they have a lot of harsh, straight edges in them. 

I would also worry about drilling glass in temps that cold. Glass is brittle enough at room temperature. Maybe others have more experience with this. You could do it inside, though. I do all of mine inside. You don't have to use a hose to run water over the bit the whole time. You can use a little dam of plumber's putty and put the water (or antifreeze - that's what I use, just try to keep it as confined as possible and wash anything it touches thoroughly before use) in it.

I think white clouds are a good option. My recollection is that they are one of the most temperature-flexible species commonly available in fish stores. Are you worried about temps being too cold or too hot?

Mark


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I know a bit about heat shaping egg crate now - the time between "hard" and "melting" is pretty minimal, and if you try to flex it while hard it shatters. So patience is required.

My reading on White Clouds suggests they don't like heat, so I guess I'm worried about temps on both ends - top temp is 78ish, which is too high for White Clouds but just right for tropical fish. But then I'll have drops down to the upper 50s in winter. And the orchids really like that night temperature drop, so I encourage it by having the tank near a window. I think I'm going to stock with shrimp and then give it a year to cycle and monitor water temps, I suspect the water won't vary as widely as the air in the tank.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I like it. Looking good.



> Next step: drill bulkheads and silicone in the acrylic. I have a diamond hole saw on the way but I'm still really nervous about drilling into my new, expensive tank. It's currently in the 30s (F) outside, and I'm not sure if the freezing air + freezing water will be an issue for drilling.





> I would also worry about drilling glass in temps that cold. Glass is brittle enough at room temperature. Maybe others have more experience with this. You could do it inside, though. I do all of mine inside. You don't have to use a hose to run water over the bit the whole time. You can use a little dam of plumber's putty and put the water (or antifreeze - that's what I use, just try to keep it as confined as possible and wash anything it touches thoroughly before use) in it.


If it's nice out, do it outside. But you aren't describing "nice out". So do it inside. 

Uh - are you sure that's an acrylic tank? And, does one even use diamond-coated tools on acrylic? A steel hole saw for wood all I've ever used. Honestly I like drilling glass way more than plastic - melty stinky plastic is a pain in the ass, I fucking hate it. You really have to manage heat build-up, it's so much worse than glass. Arrghhhh. Anyway...everything below is based on diamond & glass.

The putty dam technique works great. Alternatively, get a helper and a squirt bottle and have her/him pumping a constant spray of water onto the cutting surface. It doesn't take a whole lot of water. Just go light and slow with the drill - don't bear down at all, and don't go full-speed.

With a putty dam I usually set up the tank on something elevated - saw horses, a pair of tall buckets, whatever, as long as it doesn't wobble - and under the tank I lay a towel and then put a small bucket on that. Under the hole-to-be. Hang on though - I'm talking as if you're doing a small viv or a big lid (a flat sheet). With your bigger viv, if you can find a catch-container that'll fit completely inside the viv, you can just lay down your towel on the floor, put the catch-container on the towel, and lower the upside-down viv over the container. Drill the tank bottom from the outside. This will be better, ergonomically speaking - just kneel beside, or stand and straddle the tank, and let gravity do all the drill-pushing. You just hold it up. It can get a little tiring drilling thick glass, slowly.

With a spray bottle, you can just put the tank on several layers of spread-out newspaper. That's enough to catch the little bit of water that you're using. Nice thing about the spray bottle (or hose, if outside) method is, you can do it vertically. No need to flip the tank and deal with the open doors if you're drilling the back.

Your biggish tank is gonna have thicker glass, which takes much longer to bore through, so I'd take more care with cooling. In this case, for a newb without a hose running the whole duration, I recommend the putty dam. Modeler's clay is what I use. It's what was laying around. I just keep a ball in a ziplock, and when I need to use it again, I put a little water in and let it sit overnight. Then I knead up a "hot dog" and make a ring about 4" across.

Either way, when you've gotten the center cut out, take a little care getting out the glass dust. A few wipes with a damp paper towel is good enough.

I've drilled a number of vivs and lids, with zero breaks. And now, my wife is getting into stained glass, and she's got me cutting colored glass circles (what we throw away - I find that amusing) which she uses in her art. Still, zero breaks. Cutting holes in glass is easy with diamond hole saws.

Good luck! You can do it. Just don't push, and don't be in a hurry.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

> Uh - are you sure that's an acrylic tank?


The tank is glass. There's a heat-shaped piece of acrylic I'm using to separate land from water, and I wanted to find the best way to adhere silicone to glass so that it will hold water - there seem to be a lot of mixed opinions about that. But that's the reference to acrylic.

Thanks for the glass drilling advice, it makes me less nervous about breaking my tank. I have a decent amount of construction experience, so I'll go slow and let the bit do the work. Only difference is I'll be drilling the back, not the bottom, since the last tank I had drained through the bottom and it was hard to move with a piece of pipe sticking out of the bottom.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Next step - waterfall

I took an extra piece of slate from my front yard and broke it up into some cool shapes with a hammer and chisel, then worked out the pieces for the waterfall dry before starting to use Great Stuff. I then cut a rough form out of egg crate and tried it in the tank. The arm sticking out to the right is for a Nepenthes pot:









Box covered in wax paper, so I can move the waterfall around while it dries and encourage the stones to stay straight, and hopefully remove it easily when done. I secured the egg crate to the box with a few zip ties:









I'm doing the Great Stuff in thin layers and letting it dry 1-2 hours between each layer:









Rocks and pot in place. I'll need probably one more layer, and then I'll stand it upright and work on the pool at the bottom of the waterfall:









One question - I've been using Gaps & Cracks, but I'm running out and I have a can of Window & Door - does anyone know the difference? Should I go buy another can of Gaps & Cracks to finish?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Another question - a 3/4" Lifegard Aquatics bulkhead kit just came and it's HUGE. Is this the right size? I'll be drilling two holes, one each for land and water areas.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Really doesn't make any reaaaaallll differences which expanding foam you use. Some expands a little bit more, some a little less, but they are all pretty much the same thing. I prefer the pond and stone variety because the foam is black and doesn't matter if a little bit is showing through.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> One question - I've been using Gaps & Cracks, but I'm running out and I have a can of Window & Door - does anyone know the difference? Should I go buy another can of Gaps & Cracks to finish?


I only use the Window & Door when installing new or replacement - _wait for it!_ - windows and doors. Ha ha.

Seriously though - I have always found that it doesn't dry rigid. It always stays a little squishy. I think that's the "give" it needs to not push too hard on a window or a door, which could make them bulge out & not open or close smoothly. So I've never used that formulation in vivs. I wouldn't do it - just go get another Gaps & Cracks can.

Hey here's a good tip about foam. Use a mist bottle of water with it. Hit the spot you're about to foam with a little mist. Then spray out your foam right there. Then mist some more onto the new, sticky foam. It cures faster, harder, and bigger. Seriously, you get like twice the coverage from a can, and it cures way faster. You're maximizing the chemistry, basically.



> Another question - a 3/4" Lifegard Aquatics bulkhead kit just came and it's HUGE. Is this the right size? I'll be drilling two holes, one each for land and water areas.


I've used that size, and 1/2", and sometimes I just use a little dinky Mistking bulkhead. Depends on the application, how much flow you need to pass through it. 3/4" is way overkill for land drainage, unless you're worried about clogs. But, 3/4" PVC pipe and fittings are available anywhere, and are cheap, which is nice if you're going anywhere with that water (some folks e.g., build a fairly elaborate joining-drains system to all dump into one bucket somewhere out of sight. For recirc systems, don't combine water from >1 tank unless you've got great filtration). Mostly I just use 1/2" because a lot of canister filters and other water pumps accommodate that size hose and fittings. Some of my vivs with recirc features have an input of 1/2" (connects to pump) and a drain of 3/4" (drains to sump, where pump is located or sucks out of).

Just don't do stuff in 5/8". Kinda hard to find elbows etc. Some pumps & filters nudge or shove you that way - if so, just adapt up to 3/4".

Good luck!


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## Salty (Apr 12, 2018)

Nice work so far Harpsiel. Like the direction you’re headed. 

Can you explain your process for heating and bending the egg crate? I’ve always wondered how to use that in a way that wasn’t quite so linear.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks @jgragg, I decided to return the 3/4" and go with 1/2", and I used a little Window & Door in the pond area before you responded. It actually hardened up for me and is a little harder to cut than the Gaps & Cracks, so I'm glad I didn't use it everywhere. But I live in a really arid environment so that might contribute.



> Can you explain your process for heating and bending the egg crate? I’ve always wondered how to use that in a way that wasn’t quite so linear.


I borrowed a friend's heat gun, my boyfriend created a backdrop for me out of a cardboard box and aluminum foil (to reflect back heat, this seem to really help things heat up faster) and I applied heat along a single row of squares in 6 seconds bursts per side, until the egg crate "slumped" or seemed pliable in that spot. I think it was about 24-30 seconds total for each bend. Gently start bending with a hand on either side of the bend point, and do not use pressure if it doesn't bend easily - I shattered one piece that had cooled too much doing this. The top and bottom rungs did melt and curve a little, there didn't seem to be a way to avoid that. I did this in a mud room with a fan blowing into the garage, since it was smelly.


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## Salty (Apr 12, 2018)

Thanks for sharing that tip! I’m looking forward to giving that a try. I can really see the potential for more natural aesthetics using this technique.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Indeed. I have never tried that with a heat gun. I rarely use egg crate, but you've inspired me to reconsider ways to utilize my poor, neglected heat gun. Ha ha ha. Give a man a tool, and look out! 

One way I have used it is to harden carved foam before applying epoxy or Drylok. You can create a tougher "outer skin" to your foam. 

I'm not sure what sorts of nasty chemical transformations this treament may be forcing - I just always cover the heat-treated foam with a waterproof coating. I also don't heat long or hard enough to get ignition or smoking, but...the plastic does change significantly. And there's a little stinkiness that comes off the job.

Besides hardening the carved foam, this heat treatment also softens sharp carved edges, and causes a lot of "pills" to shrivel up. Sometimes the former soft "pills" become more like hard, sharp little "prickles" but those are easily nipped off flush, with toenail clippers or wire nippers.

Anyway...have fun, good luck!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Waterfall and background are coming along:


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## FrogLove1961 (Jul 4, 2018)

The tank looks great but after all that work are you going to keep the exo terra background?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

FrogLove1961 said:


> The tank looks great but after all that work are you going to keep the exo terra background?


Yup, I didn't feel like creating the whole 36x24 background and eventually it's going to be covered in plants and moss anyway. I'm integrating it with the waterfall with silicone and sinking the cedar into it, once that's done I'll see how it looks and might make some Hygrolon-covered PVC roots.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Never underestimate those ugly backgrounds, you can spruce em up and save on material. Ive used fake aquarium wood before and nobody noticed until I said something about it. I customized it a bit.


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## Dr. Manhattan (Oct 28, 2016)

I've incorporated an Exo-Terra background into a desert viv before. You'd really have to look to see it now. Can't wait to see the finished product. Love the bog plant idea. Just curious what water parameters you'll be shooting for ? I've never kept any of the vampire crabs or their kin, and I know they're mostly terrestrial, but I'm sure they still like to wet their whistle. Do they need some hardness/calcium in their water, or maybe just a little piece of cuttle bone to munch on ?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

> Do they need some hardness/calcium in their water, or maybe just a little piece of cuttle bone to munch on ?


I’m not sure, I’ve never kept crabs, but it would make sense that they would need some extra calcium for their shells. I’m also not sure how the pH will look, since sphagnum moss and bog plants are usually highly acidic. I’m going to cycle and monitor the water for a while and then, if the conditions seem ok, try out cherry shrimp before I add anything else.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

The waterfall is done and tested!
https://imgur.com/gallery/6M6OT2t


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Well done, not forgetting this important step!

Your tank looks great. Many people discourage others from installing water features. It comes from experience and a desire to save others from pain. But...they're pretty damn cool. Fun to build, a delight to watch running. Even though they _almost always_ eventually cause some pain. Ha ha. It's life, right?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Water test - so far the silicone/acrylic sectioning off the land area is holding with no leaks, and the waterfall is flowing nicely. Next step: silicone some coco fiber on the Exo Terra background to help it blend.

https://imgur.com/gallery/t8sgeIq

The waterfall will be removable, secured to the side and back of the tank with suction cups. I’m trying to make the whole setup relatively easy to disassemble for maintenance or adjustments. The land area drain, and water overflow/pump, will both be accessible via hinged sections of egg crate.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Having the waterfall assembly as a movable / removable unit is probably a good idea. It could certainly help you keep and use that waterfall through several vivs. 

On the other hand it might turn out that you've invested effort into keeping open an option you never wind up exercising. Over my life I have seen (with the benefit of hindsight...) myself do that quite a bit more than I wound up needing to. "Keeping your options open" is an expensive exercise, and sometimes it's better to make a declarative choice, do the work to make it work, and accept the less-great consequences & enjoy the better results. Anyway - just an aside. Something about getting older makes one want to share. "Don't do ALL the dumb stuff I did" or something...who knows? Ha ha. 

Back to the waterfall - why do you think the suction cups are needed? To hold the waterfall down, from bobbing around in the main palu water body? I am not a fan of the suction cups idea, as I can imagine all manner of stuff getting back behind there and festering. If it was me, I'd silicone that sucker in place. If you want to maintain the option to easily move it, don't do a full wall-to-wall silicone smear, just run a bead around the accessible perimeter. You can get at that with a sharp blade, if you need to pull the waterfall.

Just some thoughts. Please take them as an earnest attempt to be thoughtfully helpful, not as any sort of tear-you-down criticism.

cheers


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

> Back to the waterfall - why do you think the suction cups are needed? To hold the waterfall down, from bobbing around in the main palu water body? I am not a fan of the suction cups idea, as I can imagine all manner of stuff getting back behind there and festering. If it was me, I'd silicone that sucker in place. If you want to maintain the option to easily move it, don't do a full wall-to-wall silicone smear, just run a bead around the accessible perimeter. You can get at that with a sharp blade, if you need to pull the waterfall.


I don't think much will get behind the waterfall, since it's just bare egg crate underwater, and I won't have anything living in the above water section (besides plants). I'm happy with the suction cup for now. Really it's just to keep the Nepenthes pot section tight against the tank wall.

The water systems are working and first set of plants are in! I think the hygrolon lining the water section looks great. I do want to keep doing water changes until the tannin levels go down, it's pretty brown right now (due to the cedar), although I've been reading about blackwater tanks and apparently tannins aren't bad for fish or shrimp.


















The intrusive lights are temporary, I need to work on the lid next and I ordered a Current Satellite Plus Pro 36" LED light. I also discovered multiple leaks in my MistKing system when trying to hook it up, so waiting on replacement parts for that as well, and hand misting in the meanwhile.

Current plant list:
_Tillandsia usneoides_ (free with the orchids)
_Dendrobium auriculatum_
_Bulbophyllum_ 'Santa Claus'
_Angraecum didieri_
_Dendrobium aberrans_
_Sophrocattleya_ 'Seagull's Gumdrop' seedling, currently quarantined because I found mealybugs on it while processing the plants
_Salvinia minima_ - floating

Here's a shot of the adorable _D. aberrans_:









I might have to move the Bulbo, it's currently so wet during the day (when the waterfall runs) that water drips off its bottom leaf. I'll give it a month or two and see how it likes that.

Next steps: lid, misting system, and substrate for the water area. I'll let it cycle for a while before adding shrimp.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Current Satellite lighting system is in, I'll probably supplement it with some LED spotlights but its settings are beautiful. Lid is partially constructed (misting system isn't in yet, hence the low humidity reading).










I have discovered two things today, one interesting and one concerning. I ran spyra (thought it was hygrolon, but found an old receipt) up the sides of the land area and folded it over the edge, hoping it would keep the edges of the land area moist and I could encourage moss - well, it is wicking water so well that it's keeping the substrate in the land area soaking wet and is lowering the water level in the water area. So I may have to cut it back so it doesn't fold over the edge, just goes up to the top.

Second, hundreds of my springtail colony seem to have fallen through the window screen into the reservoir under my land area. They appear to still be alive at the moment, but I doubt they will be for long. I guess I need to fill up that area with something so they can climb back up if they fall in, currently it's just PVC pipe for support and water. So...that's why people put leca down there.

Edit: cut the spyra to the height of the acrylic, and put some NEHERP drainage layer I had laying around in the drainage area, and hopefully tonight's crisis is averted.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

It's slowly getting greener (as my budget permits). I think I have the misting adjusted well enough to grow a moss slurry on the background, so that's my next step. Current and planned plant/invert list.










Here's my adorable little Nepenthes ampullaria x (spectabilis x talangensis). It's only been in the tank for a few days and is either suffering from travel in the cold and adjusting, or isn't humid enough - time will tell:










Some aquatic plants, seem to be recovering well from initial melt:










The tank doesn't seem to be cycling on its own, so I bought some ammonia to start that up, and once that is done I have a coworker with some baby 'Blue Dream' Neocaridina shrimp waiting for me...which should help with the algae that I'm just starting to notice. I have very high light for the Nep and the orchids, so it's not surprising.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

The tank is cycled, I have 10 Blue Dream shrimp (but not a good enough camera to do them justice) and a large Ecuagenera order just came in yesterday:


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Looking real nice. Isn't this hobby the best? So fun, so rewarding, so interesting.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm much closer to where I want to be, about 11 months in...


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

What I've learned about water features so far:

Water has a really powerful wicking property, so my "dry" section is quite wet - a little too wet - and the water level in the aquatic section goes down about 1/3"/day as water wicks over the barrier and drains. Despite this, everything but some fussier orchids are really happy in the terrestrial section and I don't have any leaks. For the Masdevallias that were too wet, I just put them in pots full of Hydroton, so we'll see how that goes. If I make another paludarium, I probably won't try to have a land section below the water level, but the effect is nice.

How do people have waterfalls? My waterfall was pretty but was causing everything around it to grow so much mold and algae that even water-loving orchids were suffering and a few died. The waterfall is out of commission right now, until I find time to install a separate pump for it so I can only run it a few hours a day.

I think my paludarium filter/pump is clogged or broken, but it seems to be unnecessary. I have found the right balance of light, plants, and aquatic animals, the initial algae bloom is over, and the water stays very clean on its own.


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## Lunchmeat (Nov 10, 2020)

Looking AWESOME. Cant' wait to see the updates....

I'm on my first build and have found the same thing with water features. You can't predict the water splash and flow thus everything is wet. I tried separating but in the end, I had to make everything a wet area which reduced the terrestrial area. If I had to do it again, I'd think more about a 'water feature'.... and I will do it again.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Ah, time: The Revelator.



> How do people have waterfalls?


Well, most people here - after time has done its thing - _used to_ have waterfalls. They do not _have_ waterfalls.



> My waterfall was pretty but was causing everything around it to grow so much mold and algae that even water-loving orchids were suffering and a few died. The waterfall is out of commission right now, until I find time to install a separate pump for it so I can only run it a few hours a day.


I bring water into my tanks in several ways. 

They all have mist heads. 
Most of them have drip walls in back. 
A couple still have operating water features - not ponds, but cascades with a bit of stream. 
Each of these approaches has its own pump & schedule (timer). So all of my misters (there's a lot - not a hundred, but a lot) are run by 2 MK pumps, each serviced with its own timer and reservoir (with RO water). My drip walls all run off a set of pumps, timers, and reservoirs (just tap water). Finally, my cascades also feature their own reservoirs, pumps, and timers (about 50:50 tap / RO in the rez).

The cascades are on Sicce Syncra Silent pumps. These are adjustable. I set their discharge at a level that isn't "Splash Mountain". You can start on full blast, then dial it back until the glass isn't getting any new drops on it. Wipe the glass. Let it run and see if you need to turn it down a little more.

My drip wall water and my mist water drain into disposal jugs. My cascade water drains into sumps for filtration & recirc. I designed my drainage layers to segregate inputs into discrete drains. There's the waterfall + stream area, and the "everything else" area: two bulkheads for drainage.

You can see _it's a complicated pain in my ass_. And, I sunk a bit of money into it. And, it costs some time and attention (things just coast along, until they take a shit - for which, you never know when, but there's no if to it - it's when). Normal people mostly say "err, fuck that!". This is why newbs are always told "whoa Nellie, hang on a sec". Everybody thinks they love and want a water feature. Most learn they don't either. To keep them is to truly require loving and wanting them. Otherwise they are not worth the expense, the time, and the damned hassle. I love them, and want them, and sometimes I have a rough patch and need to make up with them. So far so good. Ha ha.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

jgragg said:


> The cascades are on Sicce Syncra Silent pumps. These are adjustable. I set their discharge at a level that isn't "Splash Mountain". You can start on full blast, then dial it back until the glass isn't getting any new drops on it. Wipe the glass. Let it run and see if you need to turn it down a little more.


Yes, I had adjusted my waterfall to the point where it wasn't splashing and was at the flow rate I wanted. It still caused everything in its vicinity to grow copious mold and algae, and this was with it running constantly for about 6 months. I had an algae bloom in the aquatic section which has settled down now, so maybe if I turned the waterfall back on the algae wouldn't be so bad, and maybe Bucephalandras would be happy that wet, but at first I wasn't even growing mosses or liverworts, because the algae took over everything. I see tanks on here with stream or waterfall features that are surrounded by beautiful bright green moss, and that is not what I was getting. My only solution at the moment is to try running it for only an hour at a time, a few times a day, and see if that level of moisture works.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I reorganized a bit, the terrestrial area was becoming a dumping ground and was getting out of control.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Check out this brilliant red _Maxillaria schunkeana_ root! I've never seen an orchid root quite this color:


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I love it. All of it. Seems like you're learning a lot and having tons of fun. What more could one reasonably hope for?

My worst algae issue _*EVER*_ in a recirc system came with the brown stuff. I'm pretty sure it was because I had some puffed glass (Grow Stones) in the drainage layer, and/or built into the trickle. The brown algae wanted to smother everything that stayed moist. Serious hassle. I tore out all the Grow Stone, did complete water changes and wiped off all the accessible surfaces. So far so good. It hasn't come raging back (yet?). It's been quite a while now (couple years) so I think I'm in the clear...

For managing nutrients & keeping any would-be algae on a starvation diet, I like a lit sump with live hungry weeds. Water hyacinth or whatever. Also partial water changes. But with snakes, there's probably a lot more nitrogenous inputs than you get with tiny frogs, even if they eat way more often and you have several per tank. I'm down to my last 2 recirc systems right now. They're fun, and pretty, but probably not worth the _hassle_ for almost anyone. A dripwall with disposed, not recirc'd water, is just SO MUCH EASIER. And liverworts are the best - ha ha. Love em.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

jgragg said:


> I love it. All of it. Seems like you're learning a lot and having tons of fun. What more could one reasonably hope for?
> 
> My worst algae issue _*EVER*_ in a recirc system came with the brown stuff. I'm pretty sure it was because I had some puffed glass (Grow Stones) in the drainage layer, and/or built into the trickle. The brown algae wanted to smother everything that stayed moist. Serious hassle. I tore out all the Grow Stone, did complete water changes and wiped off all the accessible surfaces. So far so good. It hasn't come raging back (yet?). It's been quite a while now (couple years) so I think I'm in the clear...
> 
> For managing nutrients & keeping any would-be algae on a starvation diet, I like a lit sump with live hungry weeds. Water hyacinth or whatever. Also partial water changes. But with snakes, there's probably a lot more nitrogenous inputs than you get with tiny frogs, even if they eat way more often and you have several per tank. I'm down to my last 2 recirc systems right now. They're fun, and pretty, but probably not worth the _hassle_ for almost anyone. A dripwall with disposed, not recirc'd water, is just SO MUCH EASIER. And liverworts are the best - ha ha. Love em.


Interesting, I have perlite as the drainage layer in my terrestrial area (it was what I had laying around and I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't ideal for drainage), and I just started recirculating aquatic overflow and terrestrial drainage into the waterfall, which is up and running again. I'm just running the waterfall 1/2 hr 4x/day, but I'll have to keep an eye on algae as well as TDS and plant health in general. I'm intending to flush the system occasionally by dumping the sump area that the waterfall pump pulls from and replacing with RO. I was losing a lot of RO water through wicking action every week so I wanted to reuse some of that water, but I can separate out the waterfall feed from the terrestrial and/or aquarium overflow easily if this doesn't go well. I can also replace the perlite with hydroton but it would be a pain to pull the plants out at this point, and everything is growing well.

I have an actual cycled aquarium in the bottom of the tank, about 10 gallons with plants, cherry shrimp that keep increasing in number, a snail...it doesn't really need a filtration system, but I have that running again too. I don't have frogs or anything in the terrestrial section, just plants. Everything is balanced for the moment and I have very little mold, fungus and algae, so maybe the algae bloom was just the usual one caused by a new aquarium. We'll see how it goes...

I have a bunch of cool different types of moss and liverworts, including a completely brown semi-aquatic moss covering the stones at the bottom of the waterfall, it's definitely not algae but not green at all. I'll see if I can get a good pic. So far I think I've avoided introducing java moss, which is great. Not sure where all these mosses are coming from, it seemed like some of them were spores left over on my cedar wood from the last orchidarium I had used it in...


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I have perlite as the drainage layer in my terrestrial area (it was what I had laying around and I didn't realize at the time that it wasn't ideal for drainage


Oh, no worries about your perlite, I was talking about a borosilicate glass product. "Glass" comes in various chemistries; borosilicate glass is characterized by the presence of boric oxides. Perlite has no boron. The brown "algae" problems are associated with the boron. It's not even an algae, it's just diatoms (which thrive on boron), but it's an ugly slimy hassle. In prepping a bunch of Grow Stones for viv use, I went to the trouble to get the pH down to neutral but I failed to consider the brown algae thing. It was a bit of a bummer. 

On the other hand, I've never had any trouble from perlite, given some care in corralling it. As long as you can keep it from moving around, getting into your flowing water, into your animals' digestive tracts etc etc, perlite is a great viv material. I use it a lot in making up lightweight, good-draining substrates (I always cover it in a deep layer of leaf litter so have no ingestion concerns with my arboreal snakes). I've even pondered using it as a drip wall surface (pressed onto a layer of epoxy or maybe silicone), I think cryptogams would enjoy covering it.


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## DTWGulo (Jul 18, 2020)

This is gorgeous! I'm so thrilled to see someone with a full-on paludarium and some higher-end aquatic plants. (Ranunculus inundatus I'm looking at you.)
I'm cycling my pal right now...starting to plan for plants!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks! My _Ranunculus inundatus _did well for a while but now it’s struggling. I don’t fertilize consistently so maybe that’s the issue. But there are a bunch of other aquatic plants that are doing pretty well - I’ll try to update pics soon.


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## nefarious (Feb 10, 2021)

This looks amazing!!!

I found your thread while research ideas for my newly built paludarium. Love your choice in plants. What moss do you have at the water's edge?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

The water's edge is a mix of whatever tropical mosses pop up (mostly from orchid mounts grown in greenhouses), _Utricularia graminifolia_, _Peperomia prostrata_, _Peperomia emarginella_ and an unidentified vining plant with a woody stem that came with a shipment of sphagnum from New England. Here's a closer pic:


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## nefarious (Feb 10, 2021)

Simply stunning!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Update: I moved the Spanish moss around so it’s hanging in clusters from the lid, I really like this effect. I just have it held in clips that hang from hooks so I can easily remove each cluster for maintenance. So hard to get a good full-tank shot though with even lighting throughout, I don’t know how you all do it.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

And here’s a video of my ultrasonic mist effect, I let the mist build up over the water with the circulation fan off and then turn it on again after 15 minutes


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I'm getting there! I know it's a little foreign to this board because it's not the ideal dart frog environment, but I'm getting to that "teeming with life", wild (slightly curated) look I've always dreamed of. I count 25 different plant species in this photo:


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Stunning! Do I see some little mushrooms on the left of the full pictures?

Did you know, that Nepenthes is a detritivore. In the wild, N. ampullaria eats leaves falling from trees above it. Its "stomach acid" is so dilute that insects live in it, and help to break down the rotting leaves. If you want to feed it, you can put bits of dead leaf in its pitchers.

I never would have known what background you had, if I hadn't seen the start of the thread. I even saw those odd little circles with the dots in them in one photo, and thought for a moment it was some sort of liverwort.

Good to see the Angraecum doing well, I hope to keep some of that.

What pinguicula is that behind the Nepenthes? Is that emarginata? And is that L. astrophora around the pitcher, or something similar?

I'm jealous of your water's edge. I didn't have space in my setup for a water feature, without sacrificing the entire bottom. Particularly jealous of the bladderwort, I love that stuff.

Do I see Pleopeltis percussa? Does it want anything other than "set on surface, keep lightly moist, don't smother"? I really like the look of it.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Betta132 said:


> Stunning! Do I see some little mushrooms on the left of the full pictures?
> 
> Did you know, that Nepenthes is a detritivore. In the wild, N. ampullaria eats leaves falling from trees above it. Its "stomach acid" is so dilute that insects live in it, and help to break down the rotting leaves. If you want to feed it, you can put bits of dead leaf in its pitchers.
> 
> ...


Let's see...

The little orange things are mushrooms, the white things are little fake glow in the dark mushrooms that I thought would look cool but the room never gets dark enough. I'm going to pull them and put them in a more "cute" build I'm planning. But I love the orange mushrooms that have been popping up from my pillow moss lately.

Yeah, I believe ampullaria is one of the only Nepenthes that is a detritovore since it's a forest floor plant. I haven't tried feeding mine leaves but I should try that. It certainly gets a lot of fungus gnats.

I've been considering taking the background out and replacing it with the cracked cork mosaic technique, but stuff is finally growing on it after over a year, so I think I'll leave it. I have a whole bunch of climbers but I'm hoping between the _Philodendron_ 'Micans' and the _Ficus thunbergii_ that I can completely cover it in another year or so. In any case, would not use the stock background again, just because nothing wants to grow on it.

Which Angraecum? Me and Angraecoids haven't really gotten along in past, but I'm doing a little better. The _Angraecum didieri_ is permanently sulking, it hasn't grown a leaf or root in like a year. I had to move it from the background onto a mount, and I read that they don't like their roots messed with, so we'll see if it bounces back. The _Angraecum arachnites_ bloomed for me, but I bought it in bud so I can't take credit, and since the bloom it has done nothing. _Angraecum distichum_ seems to be actually happy, so yay me!

I have _Pinguicula agnata_ 'Red Leaf' (does not have red leaves, I don't think my light is bright enough) which you probably saw in pictures, and recently added _Pinguicula cyclosecta_. They are doing pretty well both up in the pot with the sphagnum and Nepenthes, and down near the water on a lava rock, but I'm going to do some leaf pulls and make a small tank that is much brighter to hopefully see some color. I used to have my _Lepanthopsis astrophora_ next to the Nepenthes but the Nepenthes plopped a pitcher down right on top of it so I had to move it. The leaves were bright purple because the light was too bright up there anyway, that spot gets blasted by an LED spotlight on top of my powerful aquarium lights (but still not enough for the Pings). The Lepanthopsis is now in a prime spot right in the center of the tank and is sulking, hopefully it will recover and give me a few flowers soon.

My water's edge is one of my favorite spots! I'll see if I can get a good closeup of my single leaf of a filmy fern, _Asplenium holophlebium_, that is recovering after I nearly killed it. Hoping to get more filmy ferns soon.

The mini vining ferns are _Lemmaphyllum microphyllum_ and _Pleopeltis percussa_ (although I have a few other species in a grow out bin, to be added soon). _Pleopeltis percussa_ is a tough bugger that can tolerate drying out and is much faster growing than _Lemmaphyllum microphyllum_, I recommend it. Pretty much what you said.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

Lucky, those orange mushrooms are nice. The white ones don't look half bad either, but the orange ones win. 

Ampullaria frequently has tiny 'lids' to help leaves fall in properly. It also grows a big cluster of pitchers on the ground around itself, and only a few of them up on its vines, since it's more interested in leaves than bugs. 

Ah, right, Angraecums are super varied. I keep forgetting there are other, non-hanging species that look nothing like each other. I was admiring the distichum. Used to have some, years ago before I killed it (and everything else in the terrarium, plus most of my houseplants) with a few months of not-properly-medicated fatigue surge. I'm going to get some again in August, I hope- going to a greenhouse that has some. It seems to grow roots really slowly, is the main trouble with it. 

You might try P. emarginata. It has better color under bright lights, of course, but can grow perfectly well under much lower light. It produces smaller wintering leaves for part of the year, but doesn't actually need any difference in care, so it's ideal for terrariums. Blooms near-constantly otherwise, and reproduces incredibly easily from leaf pulls. I once chopped half a leaf off mine by dropping a lamp on it, and when I put the cut leaf piece in some live sphagnum, it grew five babies along the edge. To top it all off, it eats fungus gnats like nothing else. 

Good to know about the P. percussa. I got some. 

What begonias do you have? I have B. vankerckhovenii and B. prismatocarpa (I ordered the latter by mistake because I got it mixed up with the former, and I think I'm going to keep both), and they're really cute. Especially the vanckerhovenii, its leaves and blooms are on long red stems that make the whole plant look like a little firework.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

I think all pings are easy to grow from leaf pulls, most of these are leaf pulls of the agnata:









You can just see _Asplenium holophlebium_, the single divided leaf in the dark spot near the bottom of the picture:









This _Pleurothallis ruscaria_ 'Susan' was a freebie with a recent order, and the tiny ball of magenta was just so cute:









And I never posted the _Angraecum arachnites_ here, but I love that flower:









Let's see, I have _Begonia bipinnatifida_ doing really well in this tank, and _Begonia dodsonii_. That's all for the 65g, then I have a few more begonias in the glass bubble, and hoehneana should be coming soon. I have glabra and 'Withlacoochee' in grow out bins, they're both too big for me, and I have 'Sarawak', 'Julau' and lichenora on my wishlist.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

The Nepenthes has gone a little nuts this spring - 10 open pitchers from 3 plants (mom and two pups) and another few developing. You can tell which plant it comes from by the size of the pitchers, the little ones are so cute:


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

A few more things in bloom

























and _Lepanthes calodictyon_, so tiny but so intricate:


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

This build is a good example of why froggers don't need to be told to avoid water features in their vivs, but instead they just need to try a frog-free viv to hold their water feature!

It's also a great example of the power of time and patience. Change happens. Often, it brings some improvement, not just destructive entropy.

thanks for sharing!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Update - almost two years old now.









































































I have a thriving and breeding cherry shrimp population, but it’s very hard to get pics through the algae coating on the glass - I’ll scrape it off some day. I mostly just top off water and feed the shrimp once a week, everything is pretty well balanced.


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

Very inspiring! I read through and followed this entire build thread. It’s amazing how many different plants you’ve got going on in there. It goes to show that paludariums CAN have prolific plant growth in damper-than-usual substrate. You just need to know what plants thrive in that environment. Excellent work!


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

solidsnake said:


> Very inspiring! I read through and followed this entire build thread. It’s amazing how many different plants you’ve got going on in there. It goes to show that paludariums CAN have prolific plant growth in damper-than-usual substrate. You just need to know what plants thrive in that environment. Excellent work!


Thanks, and I agree - sort of. If I were to do this over again, or maybe someday redo the terrestrial area, I would use an aquatic soil like Fluval Stratum and specifically marginal plants. Some plants are doing well in the saturated ABG I have, and some have died.

There are currently 134 individual species of plants in the tank. I think I had around 200 at one point, but I moved some things out that weren't thriving, once I had other tanks and my grow tent set up. What's doing well in very wet ABG:
Noid mini _Asplenium
Asplenium holophlebium
Begonia bipinnatifida
Biophytum soukupii
Chirita tamiana
Crepidomanes minutum
Ficus thunbergii
Macodes petola
Marcgravia umbellata
Malaxis commelinifolia
Peperomia emarginella
Peperomia prostrata
Philodendron _'Micans'
_Selaginella erythropus
Selaginella willdenowii
Sinningia muscicola
Solanum_ sp Trailing
_Utricularia graminifolia_

What's surviving, but not thriving:
_Begonia _sp Maldonado
_Peperomia antoniana
Selaginella picta
Sinninga pusilla_

What died (that I can remember):
_Asplenium rutifolium_ (this one hurts, second time growing/killing it and I can only get it from Andy's if I call and enquire specifically)
Every Drosera I've ever put in the tank
A couple masdies got a fungal infection that they never recovered from
_Paphiopedilum_ 'QF Mini' is still alive, I pulled it out in time, but just started growing again after about a year
_Peperomia hispidula_ was very unhappy before I pulled it

I certainly know a whole lot more now about moisture levels, which plants like being wet and how to grow plants wet - I've always had a tendency to overwater, and I think this tank has mostly corrected that and been a great learning experience. I'm currently applying that knowledge to a Malaysian biotope blackwater riparium which will hopefully soon be stocked with chili rasboras.


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