# Pine cone scales in substrate



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

Anyone ever used cone scales in the substrate for added drainage? My abg mix is staying a little too wet and i have some mature yellow pines that drop some awesome cones.

Judging by how slowly pine needles and cones degrade, I would think they would work great. I would only use the scale though, not the needles.

Anyone?


----------



## dendrobates99 (Jul 1, 2016)

I would advise against it.


----------



## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Pine needles, at least, are very acidic as they decay - something you should avoid in your substrate as much as possible. Pine cone scales might have a similar effect. You might consider a non-organic amendment like pumice or expanded ceramic which would not break-down and thus would retain its drainage enhancing effects...


----------



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

You want to avoid the use of ANY and all pine in and around amphibians. The oils put off by the wood and plant are toxic to amphibians


----------



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

Kim, Regarding the thought that pine products are acidic and will acidify the soil, im in the camp that this is a gardening myth and just not true. While the green or fresh needles are more acidic, the the seasoned ones are more inert and do not acidify the soil to any degree worth mentioning.

Pdfcrazy, i read some bits on the toxicity of aromatic cedar and the ANAPSID.ORG article on pine, amd if i can totally appreciate the effects from an amphibians resting, defecating, or breeding directly over fresh, green pine products. But im talking about seasoned dead fall. If it helps, *this is a tank for a crestie and not frogs.* and i'm not wanting a bedding of pure shaved pine. This is just an amendment for my abg for drainage...

My hunch is still that the pine scales will work fine, only because of observation of pine needles and pine cones in composts and forest floors....They are very slow to decay and have the size and feel of something like orchid bark chips.

If nothing else, what about the abundance of toads and tree frogs in mixed hardwood and pine forest? It just doesnt add up.


----------



## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

Orchid bark itself is (often) ground pine/fir bark - so I am also dubious that pine needles or other material have a special toxicity for amphibians as pdfcrazy suggests. Given the price point of pdfs, however, I can understand a better-safe-than-sorry mindset.

Fresh pine needles themselves are very acidifc - but it appears (google) they don't generally release their acidity into the soil to any greater extent than hardwood leaves do...


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Let me start by saying I am not for or against the use of pine, I am just going to throw a couple things out there for you to think about. 

It may be a gardening myth about problems associated with pine usage, but the question is this. If there are readily available and reasonably cheap alternatives that are known to be safe why not just use them? The safest option is to use what works, my wife has Crested geckos and I build dart frog like bioactive vivariums for her using a slightly modified ABG (added coco chunks) they work well, we grow a wide variety of plants and the geckos actively breed and reproduce in these setups and the substrate supports hatching. 

Otherwise you are free to experiment with your animals and your plants because I could see where the sap and resins in pine could also effect plants. 

A similar argument was made against cocoa as it contains caffeine I believe. And I think Sportsdoc recently mentioned using shells in substrate. People advised against it and he mentioned he had been using the leaves for quite some time without any obvious ill effects. 

Another factor to consider is drainage I think a vivarium can get away with more if you have a drain and you flush water through regularly. 

On the topic of the inhabitants your cresties will likely dig and get down into the substrate and hatchlings will have to traverse through it. They will have very intimate contact with cone scales, perhaps more so than dart frogs. With the exception of Leucomelas my dart frogs don't dig.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Properly made ABG mix should not be staying too wet. A proper ABG mix is incredibly well drained. 
Did you make the mix yourself, or purchase it? Does it have the correct type of tree fern fiber in it? It should have pieces of tree fern ranging from about a quarter inch long, to an inch or so long, and they should be firm and brittle, kind of like old fashioned broom bristles. 
There is a different style of tree fern fiber available now. It is soft and pliable, and it doesn't create the same types of pockets and gaps that the old style tree fern fiber creates in your substrate. I'm of the opinion that the new, soft, tree fern fiber, should never be used on ABG substrate.

Next question, is it really ABG mix, or is it one of the many "variations" out there. I use the term "variations", loosely, because if it's not ABG mix, it shouldn't be called ABG mix. 

If you are sure it is the real thing, then perhaps something else is wrong. You have a proper false bottom, or thick layer of LECA, under your ABG mix, right? If it's directly on the bottom, or touching a pond, nothing will stop the wicking action you will get. It will just keep sucking up that water.
If you have no wicking happening, you may be over-misting. You can also look into some passive ventilation in your tank.

Finally, if you feel you have to mix something in, why go to pine when there are so many proven materials? Additional horticultural charcoal would provide more drainage. More tree fern fiber, the firm kind, would be excellent for providing more drainage. Turface is dirt cheap and could also help with drainage.


----------



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

Y'all im just having a hard time understanding this resistance to a god given, natural product that costs no money, does not pollute, and has no manufacturing cost or byproduct. 

It was asked twice why i would choose to use pine scales when there are other products on the market

So ill answer with another question.... Why would i want to buy something, to contribute to manufacturing and packaging pollution and exhaust from transporting when i have a perfctly viable option than falls from a tree right outside my window?

And im sorry im not buyng that the same pine that tree frogs climb and toads lay under during the day is toxic in my tank. 

Its no more toxic than the cement, grout, blow torched PVC, adhesives, dyes, and other competely nasty man made materials that i see put in tanks on a daily basis around here

I sure didnt mean to get into all of this. i should have stated right up front that i have no pdfs. I have a single cresty. That would have saved some grief right there.

Pumilo, i bought my abg from a trusted source....i guess hes trusted hes a vendor here.. I may have added some coco to it at some point to get more volume. Dont remember. 

I have fans so ventilation is not an issue and i do nit have any water feature. I do have a drainage layer of expanded glass. I think the problem exists because a good portion of the mist water thats makes it to the ground gets funneled into the central front portion of my tank by a drift wood stump. The jewel orchid in this area is having a tough time so an idea popped into my head about amending the substrate in that area to aid in drainage. I need like a 1/4 cup or so of material, not a quart bag shipped in from somewherenin the rust belt, and here we are....

Am i in the wrong place? Seems to me the first time i was a member here, 12 or so years ago there were problems with drama and dogma...


----------



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

You can see the small area atbthe foot of the stumpmwhere the jewel orchid is planted. That area gets more water than others because of the funnel,action of the stump. Thats where i want to add the pine scales. No problems anywhere else.


----------



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

wworker said:


> Am i in the wrong place? Seems to me the first time i was a member here, 12 or so years ago there were problems with drama and dogma...


Who has been dramatic? Seems like whenever there is a difference in opinion here it is attributed to "bullying" or drama. Comparing amphibians/reptiles that may have adaptations to a specific plant or substance in their natural environment to those that originate in an entirely different biome doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but to each his own. If you are already set on using the cones regardless of the general consensus, why did you start the thread?

Edit: if it is just that small portion of your substrate that is getting too saturated, why not plant a marginal that would appreciate the moisture, instead of trying to mitigate it for a specimen that doesn't tolerate it well?


----------



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

True, Dane. No drama here today.

I guess i was looking for a 'yeah man I tried that once and they were slimy in a week', or 'yeah works great'

thats why i asked and if the answer were, yeah they get slimy in a tropical environment, well I would look elsewhere.

And you're also right, to compare the needs of animals in different parts of the world wasnt fair.

At this point since im fairly sure my one animal wont suffer from the addition of a few pine cone scales, and no one has confirmed they will mold, i will likely give it a shot.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> Orchid bark itself is (often) ground pine/fir bark - so I am also dubious that pine needles or other material have a special toxicity for amphibians as pdfcrazy suggests. Given the price point of pdfs, however, I can understand a better-safe-than-sorry mindset.
> 
> Fresh pine needles themselves are very acidifc - but it appears (google) they don't generally release their acidity into the soil to any greater extent than hardwood leaves do...


Orchid bark is fir but is not pine in almost all cases, I have heard of a few people who had success with pine but I also hear of counter evidence of pine burning the roots of orchids. 




wworker said:


> Its no more toxic than the cement, grout, blow torched PVC, adhesives, dyes, and other competely nasty man made materials that i see put in tanks on a daily basis around here


We know that most of those man made materials are time proven and safe to use because many people have been using them successfully years now. IE we have no evidence of their toxicity. 

We do not know that pine or pine scales are safe to use. 

Therefore we cannot say your statement is correct. 

Notice that subtle and important difference in wording.

You are not in the wrong place you are in the right place, unless you were looking for people to to blindly validate your desires. We will give you the best information we have and you can choose what to do with it. 

I don't mind experimenting with new materials, but I have an army of E. anthonyi that involuntarily risk their lives to discover new materials, techniques, and co inhabitants. I won't risk such new experiments on my main show vivariums, or my main collection of animals.


----------



## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Pubfiction said:


> Orchid bark is fir but is not pine in almost all cases, I have heard of a few people who had success with pine but I also hear of counter evidence of pine burning the roots of orchids.


For what it's worth Orchiata is pine bark and is quickly becoming the sole bark media used by a number of prominent orchid growers.


----------



## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

If that is the case I have used orchiata in dart frog tanks.


----------



## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

I believe Orchiata is pine bark from plantation-grown Monterey pine (Pinus radiata) from the southern hemisphere. One of the rarest native pine trees in north America is the most common commercial lumber/pulp tree in New Zealand interestingly enough...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Addressing multiple points from multiple people. 


Some points here, not all pines are created equal with respect to terpene content and the chunks marketed and used for orchid bark often have been steamed to remove these chemicals from the bark (and its possible the bark is a secondary product as these chemical have value for various uses). 

Second point is that there can be regional differences as to the actual tree that has been used for the material. In the US if it says "western fir bark" it is probably from either a Douglas Fir ( Pseudotsuga menziesii) or Western hemlock (Tsuga heterophylla). So we have to be careful in attributing the source to a specific tree when discussing different regions. 

People tend to overemphasize things that happen in the wild with what happens in captivity but when doing so one has to be very careful about not ignoring behavioral options for the wild animals that captive animals do not have, in this case the argument about the animals outside and their behavior with the pine needles, etc isn't really valid as the outside animals can simple move away if the material is irritating them. Animals inside an enclosure cannot so this is an apples and oranges comparison. 

Pine needles again have different levels of volatile compounds and the age of the needle can make a difference. Some have levels of terpenoids low enough that they have been collected and brewed into a tea as a source of vitamin C. 

Third using fans is not the same as ventilation. Ventilation is the movement of fresh air into and out of an area. Fans moving air inside an enclosure or room is just that air movement, it is not ventilation. So the question about ventilation wasn't adequately answered. 

Fourth, decomposition of pine needles is going to be acidic as the process involves humic acids but many people forget that pretty much all of the organic substrates used in the hobby contain high levels of plant materials such as sphagnum and peat moss, coco fiber, and leaf litter in the enclosures is going to produce acidic decomposition products (humic acids). 

Fifth the risk of toxicity is going to be dose dependent and as such is going to depend heavily on the species of pine and the terpenoid content of the sap. A small addition to the substrate isn't likely to reach toxic levels particularly if there is adequate ventilation (see above) but as Dane pointed out using a marginal in that place seems like a better idea as the pine scales will decompose and you'll be back at the same point in the future. 

Sixth, the pine scales will decompose and you'll be back at square one again so when choosing amendments for increased drainage you might want to consider inorganic amendments like sand for drainage. 

Seventh, many of the materials used in the construction of enclosures is as safe as using "natural" plant sourced products. A huge number of plants produce chemicals that are toxic to other organisms as part of their defenses so care must be taken when making an argument that "natural" products are "safer" than "man made materials" as its too easy to make an invalid assumption. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

Ed, thanks. That was informarive. You and Dane both tempered my impulsive mental ramblings with thought and real information.

Regarding ventilation in my tank specifically... I have a row of 3/8" holes at the bottom front of my tank along the door where fresh air can enter from below.

There is a 1/2" hole in the top plexi with a 25mm fan fixed in place. This fan is oriented so that it pulls air out of the tank. It would be considered exhaust rather than intake I guess you could say. There are also 2 25mm fans suspended from the top pointing towards the front glass at roughly 80 degrees away fro. Each other both basically symmetrical and centered in relation to walls, background etc. all fans are run on an adjustable 12volt dc comverter at 1.5v.

I spray the tank daily or every two days for about 10-15 seconds with a pump garden sprayer.

Yes im sure i could put my jewel orchid in another location but i like it front and center.

On a side note, i was without good light for about 6 months during which time most of my plants died back/suffered. I have had good light again for about 3 momths and everything is growing back in. Icely.

The jewel orchid sprouted a couple of leaves recently that died/spotted/rotted and made me think about wet feet. Only thing i could think of...

In the last few days the orchid has sprouted more leaves that seem to be doing much better. Soil has not been amended....

Who knows....

I do apologize to the members who contributed in the beginning for my becoming defensive. Folks just trying to help...


----------



## MasterT (Jun 7, 2016)

I get where you are coming from worker, 

Being new to all of this, I am constantly looking for a more effective way then whats already here but really I have not found any. The concept of using the pine scales sounds awesome but I would hate for something to happen to your crestie. I get that toads and Tree frogs might be on/by these things but just remember that it is native for them. For a crestie I do not know theire habitat but if its not with pinetrees, I would would be skeptical. I deffinately wont being doing it with my first set of frogs. If it works though Please let us all know because It does seem very plausible. I would just hate something to happen to your pet


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wworker said:


> Ed, thanks. That was informarive. You and Dane both tempered my impulsive mental ramblings with thought and real information.


No worries it happens to everyone. 

ventilation sounds sufficient. 



wworker said:


> I spray the tank daily or every two days for about 10-15 seconds with a pump garden sprayer.


Why did you settle for this frequency? It's possible that you could in some respects be over misting for the enclosure. 



wworker said:


> The jewel orchid sprouted a couple of leaves recently that died/spotted/rotted and made me think about wet feet. Only thing i could think of...


Have you checked out the enclosure after the lights have been shut off for awhile for snails, slugs or even isopods that could be attacking and damaging the leaves. The damage could be setting up the leaves for infection and decomposition. 



wworker said:


> In the last few days the orchid has sprouted more leaves that seem to be doing much better. Soil has not been amended....


It is also possible that those leaves were produced while the plant was still stressed and as such weren't able to withstand the conditions. I've grown a number of jewel orchids over years and they can tolerate pretty moist conditions but I've always grown them with a lot of ventilation. 



wworker said:


> I do apologize to the members who contributed in the beginning for my becoming defensive. Folks just trying to help...


as I noted above it happens to everyone, no one likes to have their idea(s) challenged so no worries. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## wworker (Nov 23, 2011)

Yes ive backed off a little on misting. The frequency was just a gut feeling. If i take days off theres a chance i will take too many days off...

I started picking snails the day i noticed the leaves dieing. I have gotten MANY. They also like the cresty food so that's a bonus. Trapped snails every time i feed.

You may very well be right about the leaves being left over from the low light period. It has taken a while for the plants to bounce back. Longer than i would have thought, but one of my ferns is shooting new shoots and feet and also has spores on the leaves for the first time in my tank.

Looks like maybe they are happy again.


----------

