# LED strips for thin and tall tower?



## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

I've had a long dream of turning an old glass-door cabinet into a vivarium. It's very thin and tall (Width: 16 3/4" Depth: 14 3/8" Height: 64 1/8"). Picture of a cabinet can been seen at Ikeas site: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/detolf-glass-door-cabinet__20306_PE079916_S4.jpg

The reason why it's still in garage is that I haven't figured out a decent way of lightning it all the way to the bottom. Top part can hold almost any light but there's no lightning system that can penetrate deep enough.

It's going to be a epiphyte tree setup viewable from all four directions with gnarly branch extending from the bottom to the top. Bottom part holds a small hidden water reservoir and the tree stem is covered with small epiphytes (moss, miniature orchids, ferns, tillandsias and bromeliads). I'm planning it to be primarily for plants as I'm not sure if any of the arboreal dart frogs are small enough to be kept there? If not I might have to settle for a mantis or nothing at all.

My first idea was to hide small CFL:s among the branches and camouflage reflectors, but that didn't work as all reflectors were too big to be really hidden, I could not guarantee my own safety with all the water and electricity when watering plants and hot bulbs would have posed a risk to animals. 

So my next idea that I got few days ago is to use Led strips/rods for lightning (such as: High Density SMD 3528 Flexible LED Light Strips 600 LEDs [HK-F3528X60-X-X-X] - $92.00 : LEDLIGHTSWORLD.COM). I would put 2 strips in each corner.

Can anyone guess if that would be enough light for shade loving plants? Any other suggestions are also welcome!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You might check with DB username Konton. I know he has been experimenting with side mounted LEDs in a taller tank.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Dont get the 3528 LEDS. the brightest LED strips are the 5050 LEDs. These are the ones we all have been discussing. 
12V 5M 5050 SMD 300led White 3000K~7500K options LED Strip Light waterproof 16FT | eBay
You can get the rolls in different temps, to mix your own light. Im pretty excited about these. 27$ a roll. get a 12v 4amp power supply per roll.


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

Thanks! 

That sounds perfect. Do you believe that 2-4 strips for each corner would allow to grow plants that need high light intensity?

Also all strips probably have 120 degree angle. Is it possible to glue a 45 degree lenses over the leds in waterproofed strips?

Due to alignment of the strips light would probably otherwise bleed annoyingly to the outside when looking inside. 30 degrees might be even better but that might create darker spots.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

the best solution will be diying a led system and using fairly tight angle optics. my led uses 30 and 45 degree optics over cree xlm leds and i get very good lighting 60 inches below the lights. something like 3 cool whites xlm u2s and 2 warm white cree xlm t5s would be all you need. the other option that would be somewhat less efficient would be to use one of the larger multiemitter chips like a 50 watt led with a decent lens. those strips will give low light at that depth.


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## Khammy87 (Oct 2, 2010)

You should get a hold of Todd from Lightyourreptiles.com. I think he may be able to help!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I wonder about using some kind of (maybe DIY) spotlight LEDs combined with several gooseneck fixtures positioned at a few spots around the enclosure to shine inside at an angle(?).


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

That is a pretty cool enclosure. Apparently they still make it...

DETOLF Glass-door cabinet - beech effect - IKEA

Have you thought about how to waterproof it? Without some kind of basin at the bottom water will just run right under the door.


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

skanderson said:


> the best solution will be diying a led system and using fairly tight angle optics. my led uses 30 and 45 degree optics over cree xlm leds and i get very good lighting 60 inches below the lights. something like 3 cool whites xlm u2s and 2 warm white cree xlm t5s would be all you need. the other option that would be somewhat less efficient would be to use one of the larger multiemitter chips like a 50 watt led with a decent lens. those strips will give low light at that depth.


I think the only solution is to use side mounted lights as the terrarium is so thin that when you put decorations inside with even few small plants it'll block all light instantly even if larger leds would theoretically provide enough light to the bottom.

For the top I think that yours is a good suggestion. I'm new to the leds and have so far used only HQI-lights for all reef aquariums, terrariums and orchids so I'm completely puzzled as to how to calculate how many and which leds to use. So far only leds in this house are embedded in mixed devices and in some crappy solar lights in the yard.

I agree that DIY side mounted 'led strips' with 30 degree angles would be optimal for the sides however I'm a little worried whether or not I can make them waterproof as misting, watering, occasional rain etc. would sooner or later wet them.

I've been doing some math with these "12V 5M 5050 SMD 300led White 3000K~7500K options LED Strip Light waterproof 16FT | eBay"

So the height is 64 3⁄16" and 11 13⁄16" from the bottom goes to basin that I've already put together. Add to that 7 7⁄8" for soil, moss etc. and you have 44 1⁄2" left. Let's assume that top 5 1⁄8" has no led strips in case I decide to use larger leds in the roof someday. So there is a 3.3 feet of available led space in each corner. So wattages would be:

1 strip (14,4w)/corner = 13 feet of strip = 57,6w for whole terrarium
2strips (28,8w) = 26.2 feet = 115w
3 strips (43,2w) = 39.3 feet = 172,8w
4 strips (57,6w) = 52.4 feet = 230w 

Now to further analyse the result let's put some pythagoras in use. If we assume that most plants are close to the center and knowing that these leds have too wide angle we can assume that maximum distance of any plant from the nearest leds would be ~28cm. 

In most cases plant would be much more closer to the light source. Now mosts plants would also receive light from at least two corners which increases the amount of light somewhat but I guess that calculating the average amount of light for a average plant would require some serious light-field calculations so its faster just assume and guess.

So I assume based on wattages:
1 strip would be enough to keep wandering jew alive for a while and maybe some algae/moss growth but not much else. That is unless I keep structure very open so that plants receive light from most strips simultaneously in which case wandering jew and other 'fool proof' plants might do okay.

2 strips would grow shade loving plants and moss well. In more closed design light might be an issue. No hope for most orchids yet.

3 strips most orchids and broad leaved bromeliads would grow.

4 strips orchids might even flower...

I'm I anywhere near the truth?



> Have you thought about how to waterproof it? Without some kind of basin at the bottom water will just run right under the door.


I made a small basin at the bottom from glass. It wasn't as easy as it could have been as the small metal rods holding the thing together force basin to be a bit smaller than it could have been. So I made the basin as large as possible and sealed the rest with silicone.


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

Jean Kaye said:


> I agree that DIY side mounted 'led strips' with 30 degree angles would be optimal for the sides however I'm a little worried whether or not I can make them waterproof as misting, watering, occasional rain etc. would sooner or later wet them.


I'm not sure if you're considering putting these inside the tank, but just in case you are, I wanted to mention that these things get rather warm (not CFL warm, but they still put out heat) -- I've got one application with 4 strips of SMD 5050s (about 18" long) mounted to a piece of plastic and sitting about .5" above a glass top on an 18" Exo-Terra cube. Even with a ceiling fan in the room and an ambient room temp of 74 degrees, the lights raise the temp in the viv by about 2 degrees, and the back of the plastic the light strips are mounted to clocks in at about 117 degrees; if they were inside the viv, it'd probably become a sauna. 

You might be okay lighting the sides of the viv with these from the outside if you can figure out a way to mount them so that a little air can circulate between them and the glass to carry the heat away...


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## konton (Nov 17, 2010)

Sometime I need to connect my youtube account and my blog and my posts here together. Anyway, here's a vid I made on my 65 gallon vert made from an old iron display case:






The outside of the tank is about 48"x18"x18". I have 225 LED's on top and 132 LED's framed around the front. That's 357 LED's, all 5050 SMD @ 5000K. The one's at the top are about 1.5 inches from the glass, but still create more heat then I'd like. I don't see a significant heat increase around the bottom of the tank with the additional 132 LED's. Perhaps because they are so spread out.

This tank is still under construction and contains no frogs at this time. It's just a place to hold plants until I finish my rack. But I hope it gives you some ideas. I do quite a bit with Ikea. The rack I'm building is Ikea IVAR. I'll be curious if you decide to go through with your build how you plan on closing up with bottom, adding drainage, and fly proof the whole thing.

Jae


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

I've built a small sink into the bottom. It - along with everything else - wasn't as easy as it could have because of the small metal rods that keep the thing from falling apart. What I did was that I made the sink slightly smaller and added extra flaps to it (It looks like an opened cardboard box). Small squares that were left out were sealed with silicone.

Only front door is left. I have some thoughts about it which will not make it flyproof yet but should prevent water and frogs from getting out. Sides will be sealed with triangular led light holders (yes I still want to try putting lights inside).


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## inka4040 (Oct 14, 2010)

I have these exact strips over my bookcase tanks. 3 strips, and i'm growing a terrarium full of anubias and riccardia, as well as a 10" cube aquarium with low light plants. 


LED Lightbar - SMD5050 Rigid LED Lightbar with 30LEDs

The fixtures were the absolute thinnest thing I could find, and I'm quite pleased with the results.


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

> I'm not sure if you're considering putting these inside the tank, but just in case you are, I wanted to mention that these things get rather warm (not CFL warm, but they still put out heat)


I'm still not a believer in leds emitting heat  I wrote a rather long answer with my thoughts and lost it so here's a short version:

Image below is a one corner of the tank so it is repeated in all 4 corners (except for the 3 large fans on the right).

Key:
circles=fans
Grey=aluminum "heatsink"
yellow=led strips
blue=glass
red=false roof
green=false bottom

What do you think? Any hope?


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

Jean Kaye said:


> What do you think? Any hope?


You can always try it and see. In my experience 12 strips of LEDs (at least the 300 led per 5 meter SMD 5050s) put out a pretty measurable amount of heat, even in open air, but your mileage may vary. 

You might want to monitor temps for awhile before you add livestock. Every watt that goes in there for light becomes heat that needs to be exported, essentially.


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

I have been quiet for a while as I can't decide whether to go with the flow or try something new. I've bought a water pump and 3 meters of ridiculously overprized strip from local store (for testing). And yes it does heat up!

But as most of the heat comes from the bottom of the led I'm still hopeful that my design might just solve the problem. I'd like to try but I don't want to waste leds so I need watersoluble temporary glue - I'm thinking about trying syrup or some other sticky sugary stuff as temporary adhesive but time has been an issue as always...

Oh and as a motivation I bought my first plants for the box from local garden centre: two small cryptanthus plants and hoya retusa. It was surprisingly pleasant experience as there were lot of bromeliads (all too big though) and some relatively rare hoyas. I expected to find mostly Euphorbia pulcherrima in several colours.


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## nonliteral (Mar 26, 2012)

Jean Kaye said:


> I have been quiet for a while as I can't decide whether to go with the flow or try something new. I've bought a water pump and 3 meters of ridiculously overprized strip from local store (for testing). And yes it does heat up!
> 
> But as most of the heat comes from the bottom of the led I'm still hopeful that my design might just solve the problem. I'd like to try but I don't want to waste leds so I need watersoluble temporary glue - I'm thinking about trying syrup or some other sticky sugary stuff as temporary adhesive but time has been an issue as always...
> 
> Oh and as a motivation I bought my first plants for the box from local garden centre: two small cryptanthus plants and hoya retusa. It was surprisingly pleasant experience as there were lot of bromeliads (all too big though) and some relatively rare hoyas. I expected to find mostly Euphorbia pulcherrima in several colours.


No suggestions on temporary adhesives, but as far as price goes, you can find most any flavor of the strips cheap in five meter rolls from eBay and Amazon lately. 

Hunting through garden centers is often worthwhile - I even turn up a few fun finds at Home Depot and Lowes occasionally (although you usually have to be lucky enough to get there before they manage to kill them  )


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

nonliteral said:


> "..............................................................You might be okay lighting the sides of the viv with these from the outside if you can figure out a way to mount them so that a little air can circulate between them and the glass to carry the heat away...


Yes.. 
you are right on Nonliteral.

An air space between the LED bars and the glass pane IS A MUST! 


But I need to jump on a soap box here for a moment....

I personally frown on lighting coming in through the sides.
If anyone cares about my humble opinion. LOL

It is best to stay away from "side" lighting.
I had a similar discussion like this on the Chameleon forum just the other day!

*Seriously!
I get a migrain just thinging about looking at bright LED lights shining eye level in my pupils all freekin' day.
I can only imagine how ... err... unpleasant it would be for the frogs. 
Sorry folks to rain on this parade..... but PLEASE think about it before going crazy strapping LED bars on the sides of your viv.

*
*For tall vivs, LED spotlights ARE THE WAY TO GO. Period. 
That way you can create a much more NATURAL EFFECT like sunlight streaming down through the forest canopy.*

I have hundreds-- if not thousands of dollars worth of plants and frogs... as many of the folks here do.
And I definitly DO NOT want to make them appear washed out and look awful with poor spectrum cheapie LED "rope" lights or way too high Kelvin colored low CRI bars.
Or throw money on LED stuff made for the "novelty" mass LED market.
There is so much LEDs stuff out there *just trying to capitalize on the LED craze and take advantage of peoples lack of understand of lighting science.
It just boggles my mind.
*

Anyway,
That is my motivation to strive to develop the best possible lights for my animals.
And I started down this road 2 years ago wanting my animals and displays to be lit as well, OR BETTER than anyone would see in any zoo or natural history museum. .... I am still working... never satisfied.

Cheers!
Todd
[email protected]

PS.
Hey!
Here are just a few pics from my "LED Scrapbook". 
Enjoy! 
Now ya' all know why I am poor... LOL spending all my $$ on these R&D experiments. 
*e-hem* Actually "doing" rather than "talking".... not just a lot of hot air here like some internet LED "experts"... LOL!


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Oh, If anyone is interested... the light spots have a great penetrating light and why they are preferable* to LEDs on the sids of vivs...
*To the frogs eyes anyway!
here are the light levels (and also important- COLOR RENDERING Properties / tests. )from the med 20 - 24w JD spots.
You can see that even these Med. size spots "kick it."...


OH.... and big Shout Out to Azurel here for pushing me towards spots over a year ago.


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

> Hunting through garden centers is often worthwhile - I even turn up a few fun finds at Home Depot and Lowes occasionally (although you usually have to be lucky enough to get there before they manage to kill them  )


This local 'garden center' is practically Home Depot. Florist shops in here specialize in roses, most garden centers aren't open in winter so all that is left are Home Depot like stores with lots of crap and some plants hidden between.

Thank god for internet! 



Venutus1 said:


> Yes..
> For tall vivs, LED spotlights ARE THE WAY TO GO. Period.
> That way you can create a much more NATURAL EFFECT like sunlight streaming down through the forest canopy.


Ok, I accept your period. I'll attach a quick concept image that shows how it is going to look when ready. Here's my period: I'm not ready to quit on that look no matter what.  

Realistically speaking: I really wish I could limit myself into keeping it as a natural and harmonious piece of cloud forest. Sadly I'm a serious plant geek with a limited space (and self control) so you should double the amount of plants and add few seriously overgrown lowland nepenthes (or some other 'just for a while until the bigger one is ready' plants).

Now do you still believe that you have spotlights or other solutions that can penetrate all the way to the bottom? If you do I'm all ears. Nothing would make me happier than to buy readymade (and reasonable price) solution from you but I honestly believe there's not one in this (wardian) case. 

I don't resent the idea that forest bottom has lower light levels, but I do mind it if there is not enough light to flower saintpaulias, begonias, low light bromeliads or low light orchids.












> here are the light levels


What is the distance between lights and the meter?


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

Now if I discard the option of side lightning the alternative is big led spotlights on the top and very small, almost invisible leds below branches. So here are few questions:

How much power can leds have without the need for active cooling? Does the cooling pad work if I plant the leds in holes.

How much light does 3-5w led emit? Is one xx w led enough to light plants max. 15" below. And let's not count pothos as a plant


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

how are you going to keep the plants toward the top from shading the bottom? /thats not a lot of room


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

> how are you going to keep the plants toward the top from shading the bottom? /thats not a lot of room


I simply can't. Thats why I've been so keen on trying side mounted led strips.


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## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

oh ye have little faith.

Of course I have a spotlight that will work..... excellent for that.


The secret? a little custom razzle dazzle & a narrow beam angle.

Remember, your talking to a "DO-ER" when it comes to LED on vivs.
Not a "talker".
 

I pm-ed you.

Happy Thanksgiving.
Todd




Jean Kaye said:


> This local 'garden center' is practically Home Depot. Florist shops in here specialize in roses, most garden centers aren't open in winter so all that is left are Home Depot like stores with lots of crap and some plants hidden between.
> 
> Thank god for internet!
> 
> ...


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## NickMan (Apr 1, 2007)

One way to export heat from the viv would be to use tubular (square) aluminum as a heatsink and a fan like this guy does....

Complete Retrofit Kit

youd be using outside air and venting it outside the viv to reduce overall heat transfer significantly. Of course you wouldnt need nearly the amount of light needed for high light corals. 

This doesn't address the moisture but I have heard that this http://reefledlights.com/shop/led-seal/ is very effective against saltwater corrosion issues.
If you cant tell im currently a reefer 

Just an idea 

-Nick


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## spyder 1.0 (Aug 27, 2012)

I'm in the process of doing this. I have the strips mounted in a U-shaped aluminum housing in the 4 corners. Not hot at all...

Just have to install the custom LED canopy light


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## Jean Kaye (Aug 12, 2012)

The Retrofit kit seems to be something I pictured in a earlier post. And I actually bought triangular aluminum tube for that but I've got no idea how to fit a fan in that 



> I'm in the process of doing this. I have the strips mounted in a U-shaped aluminum housing in the 4 corners. Not hot at all...


Does that use fans or other active cooling system? Nice wood! Is it fake, real or a combination of both?

---------------------------------------------

For my project I've been doing more material sourcing and less actual doing. 

I made a field trip to search for suitable wood but all gnarled decorative branches were too high and dead wood from the ground was too straight and simple (=natural) for terrarium. So I'm on a quest for making fake wood. Maybe adding some real wood for critter food..

I've already bought a spraycan of polystyrene, chicken wire, ropes and some random cheap plastic things for support and some epoxy. 

I plan to make a skeleton with my random collection of stiff but bendable objects and chicken wire and then coat/fill it with polystyrene. And finishing it with a layer of epoxy covered with peat or something moisture absorbing (to help shingling plants and epiphytes).

So I'm missing only paint. Should I try to make colored epoxy or paint the polystyrene below it and coat with epoxy? What kind of paints are good? Acrylic maybe?


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## spyder 1.0 (Aug 27, 2012)

fake tree from driftwood foamed together. It is hollow with a fan in the center of the tree.

The side LED's are only running off of 2 amps. Need to up to 5 to increase the brightness. I am probably going to need more intense led lights for the top of the tank though.


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