# The next blue jeans???



## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

I was browsing over the some old posts and another thought or idea occured to me. I was reading the "what will be the next blue jeans dart? And Just out of curiosity with all of the new pumilio with in the last few years how many people are working with Bri Bri pumilio? For some reason from what I call a few years ago these pums were also hard to breed. Is that not the case anymore. I see more and more people having success with the newer pumilio and even some of the rare ones as well but I havn't seen anything on these pums. Any imput?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

I think that the rarity of Blue Jeans and Bri Bri is that they're from Costa Rica which has put a lock down, more or less, on exporting, so the imports that came in years ago are the only source for those frogs, whereas the Panama pumilio can be exported and are brought in somewhat regularly.


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Exactly, Now years ago before I was in the hobby blue jeans were a normal frog to get a hold of. And now they are almost non existent in the US Hobby. 
Now there are obviously more Bri Bri then Blue Jeans but if the Bri Bri are not producing any offspring eventually they will end up like the Blue Jeans, Correct?


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

I'd say that Darklands are ALMOST (keyword) as rare to come across as Blue Jeans. It seems like whenever you hear of Darklands it's in the wanted section.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

frogman824 said:


> I'd say that Darklands are ALMOST (keyword) as rare to come across as Blue Jeans. It seems like whenever you hear of Darklands it's in the wanted section.


Eh, that'll be changed soon enough. Same with Escudos. They're just a relatively new import. I have no doubt that they'll get common. Same with Solartes. I can't believe the prices on them given how prolific they are in the wild.

I think that something like speciosus or vincenti will be coming in before too long, and I would guess that they'll be the next blue jeans. I also don't know how much success is happening with pumilio as opposed to you just seeing new frogs being imported. Some are having success, no doubt, but I'm not so sure it's as wide spread as it seems.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I have been looking for Bri-Bri for a while so I would say these guys are still fairly rare. They come from an indigenous reserve in Costa Rica so really our best bet is to wish good luck to the folks who are working with them now.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

frogman824 said:


> I'd say that Darklands are ALMOST (keyword) as rare to come across as Blue Jeans. It seems like whenever you hear of Darklands it's in the wanted section.


I would disagree with this nearly 100%. I have had several shots to get more Darklands than I have and have passed and I can think of at least 4 or 5 sales that have went up for Darklands in the past 3 or 4 months (many of which did not sell or sat for sale for quite awhile and then reposted). In the last year and a half to 2 years I cannot think of one single time I have seen real Blue Jeans (that didn't end up being Man Creeks or Almirante) for sale, I have not been offered them one time, and I only know of 2 or 3 people with blue jeans vs at least a dozen or more that I can think of off the top of my head without trying that have Darklands. Blue Jeans are FARRRRRR more rare than Darklands and it stems solely from their being from a country that no longer exports and their relative lack of success in breeding. Bri Bri on th eother hand are nowhere near as uncommon as people think since a number of breeders have them but just don't have the number of successful offspring like peole are from some of the newer imports. One of the most at risk IMO (and this is in a down the road 3-5 years from now sense) are teh Escudos. Marcus brought in a relatively low number of these guys and the collector/farmer said that he wouoldn't go out to get them again because of the hassle and how much money the collector had to spend just to get to the collection spot. He said the collector said they were difficult to find and with the amount of money the collector had to spend getting there (boat rental, gas, etc.) that his profit matgins were low with them so he doubted that they would ever go out and get them again. If that rings true, what's her is all that's coming and that means that the captive breeding population will have to sustain the hobby... pretty hard deal IMO.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

sbreland said:


> One of the most at risk IMO (and this is in a down the road 3-5 years from now sense) are teh Escudos. Marcus brought in a relatively low number of these guys and the collector/farmer said that he wouoldn't go out to get them again because of the hassle and how much money the collector had to spend just to get to the collection spot. He said the collector said they were difficult to find and with the amount of money the collector had to spend getting there (boat rental, gas, etc.) that his profit matgins were low with them so he doubted that they would ever go out and get them again.


So much for farm raised;
Ach well, as long as there are papers for them,... 

SOrry but I call those importers lucky smugglers that get rewarded with papers if that is what is really happening (I already thought it was, just don't want to accuse anything that I cannot prove.)

So if they aren't collecting, sorry for my post then.

Grtz,
Thomas


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

As I understand it, they go out and collect the stock animals and then bring them back to the facility to breed. How many get shipped out that are bred there at the facility versus are the original wild caughts I have no idea (may be all or may be none). The difference between the smugglers and the farms is simply that smugglers make off with frogs that they aren't allowed to whereas the farmers have permits and governmental approval for their operation. It's the same guidelines as with any legal import/export operations as I understand it. Think of it this way... all of these treefrogs from tanzania, madagascar, or wherever, that are coming in are legally exported... it's the same deal here. In order for the frogs to come out of the wild and into our collections they can only do it in two ways... be smuggled out or legally exported. These frogs are definitely legally exported but whether they are all WC or FR is anyones guess.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

sbreland said:


> frogman824 said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say that Darklands are ALMOST (keyword) as rare to come across as Blue Jeans. It seems like whenever you hear of Darklands it's in the wanted section.
> ...


I aggree with you're disagreement 100%  

I know of a few breeders that have good success with their darklands, and only know of one in the US that has blue jeans.


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

I wasn't around in the hobby back when Blue Jeans were very common and supposedly going for $25. Just curious though, if they were that common then what happened to them? Did they all die off? I don't understand how a frog so easily available can go to being so rare. Are Blue Jeans available in Europe or just as rare as here?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

frogman824 said:


> Just curious though, if they were that common then what happened to them? Did they all die off?


That is the question...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Very few people knew how to keep them or breed them well when they came in, so very few made it past a year or two in country. Couple that with the fact that they are said to be much harder to get to breed than other pumilio, you have a recipe for their decline. Ther are still a few that do OK with them but for the most part most have not done well and their numbers have continuously declined over time. They are morea available in Europe that they are here, but I don't know if I would say that they are readily available. Whether the Europeans have been more successful in breeding them or if the numbers have been supplemented by "other means" is something I have no idea about though....


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I think I remember reading that getting them to breed is not the problem, getting them to raise their young is...


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks to SNDF the folks exporting most of those frogs know how to ship them in in 100% better shape than any Pumilio imports of the past. A couple of times I got blue jeans in the late 90's for around $20 bucks each and out 10-15 frogs 8 or 9 would look really good but usually all would die within a few weeks (same with Retics and they were even cheaper). Back then taking care of frogs and shipping them in good condition was meaningless, it was all about moving #'s and sending whatever the export quota was for the year.
If the same people shipping today were shipping blue jeans IME we would be having a similar success rate as we are with those currently available.
Either farm raised or WC it does not matter, those with permits can ship the frogs under the right conditions and in ways that most benefit the survival rate of the frogs...knowing that will help their business. The other way frogs are jammed in and concealed and the carrier "hopes for the best" in survivability but since whatever survives is mostly pure profit there is little incentive to take any chances that may get the person caught.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't think there is nearly as much success overall with pumilio as there was before... sure there are plenty in the hobby (thanks to imports) and sure a decent percentage have actually bred... but how many of those successful breeding have produced froglets for sale that grew into adults? 

How many of the original mancreek and chiriqui rivers are around? Not as many as people would think. They can in much better shape... but still the majority of them seem to be gone. Still a good number not successfully bred. They are not as hard as BJs by any means, but at the same time, they haven't overpopulated the hobby either... the imports are doing that.

Also, there are few of the "before Panama FR pumilio" around, and they seem to be rarer because of all the FRs, but I don't think they are any rarer... tho they are still as challenging as they were before. Some are easier than others...


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Dancing frogs said:


> I think I remember reading that getting them to breed is not the problem, getting them to raise their young is...


Well, I kinda lumped the whole process in the "breeding them" category, but you're right, that was supposedly the problem.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> blue jeans IME we would be having a similar success rate as we are with those currently available.
> Either farm raised or WC it does not matter, those with permits can ship the frogs under the right conditions and in ways that most benefit the survival rate of the frogs...knowing that will help their business. The other way frogs are jammed in and concealed and the carrier "hopes for the best" in survivability but since whatever survives is mostly pure profit there is little incentive to take any chances that may get the person caught.


Wall, Jerry. Jewels of the Rainforest- Poison Frogs of the Family Dendrobatide. pg. 280 THF.1994.

Page 280 of the above text is a great example of those shipping conditions.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

frogman824 said:


> I wasn't around in the hobby back when Blue Jeans were very common and supposedly going for $25. Just curious though, if they were that common then what happened to them? Did they all die off? I don't understand how a frog so easily available can go to being so rare.


I think the new imports of pumilio could very well wind up like blue jeans. It is pretty simple math really. You have to have animals in captivity reproducing faster than they are dying off and that didn't happen with the blue jeans. True, a lot of blue jeans were shipped under crappy conditions, and the bulk of the imports wound up at pet stores which is pretty close to a death sentence. But there were some good imports too, and a fair number arrived in good condition. And a fair number of those bred. Just anectdotally, I would say that there were about the same frequency of blue jeans "successes" being reported as there are of the new imports now. But the reproductive rate in captivity has lagged way behind what it is in the wild, and things happen to frogs over time so there are losses. Even well established frogs perish for a variety of reasons, even in skilled hands. I'd say that plenty of blue jeans got established just fine in captivity to have a chance of establishing a sustainable population, but they never reproduced in the numbers needed to even replace losses. I think without really tracking births and deaths, the status of a population can be really deceptive if you just read about the successess on the boards. Another thing that happened (actually is still a problem) is that as frogs perished, a good number of blue jeans wound up alone and without mates. And there are still a few singles floating around that aren't doing any good for establishing the morph. But that's still related to deaths ourpacing births.

As far as not knowing how to care for them "back then", I think that is an oversimplification because not a whole lot has changed in pumilio care over the years from what I can gather. Back then, the average setup was a 20 tall viv with a pair. Yes, there was some experimentation with groups but it was fairly quickly established that pairs were better. Some, including me, have had much better luck with larger setups but others have not seen the same thing. Although it does seem that people are giving their pumilio more elbow room now, there were a range of setup sizes for the blue jeans and yet we still didn't see positive population growth. The one advance we have seen since the blue jeans days is the addition of calcium supplements to get the froglets passed the 6 month stage. Although this has increased survival, it was actually learned while there were still blue jeans around. And dripping calcium gluconate on a froglet seems like a very poor substitute for figure out the real husbandry issue - which I'm convinced is lack of UVB lighting and lack of calcium bearing substrates. The bottom line is that husbandry does not seem to have changes substantially and I think it is premature to assume that the new imports will fare better than the blue jeans.

And finally is the notorious difficulty of blue jeans. As with all things, they don't seem difficulty once you figure out what they need. In the case of blue jeans, they simply like it wet. So wet, that you really need an automated misting system in my experience. Many years ago while discussing blue jeans with a great frogger, he hypothesized that because blue jeans come from a very wet part of the world, perhaps they don't have the egg wetting behaviors of other pumilio. My observations support this. On several occassions I've seen eggs that look like they are becoming parched just as the misting system kicks in to rehydrate them. And the system runs for 1-2 minutes 5 times a day. But I've never noticed that they don't take care of the tads. They are actually fairly prolific once their environment is dialed in properly.

But as for bri bri, I have wondered the same thing about them. They were the first pumilio that I recall being captive bred in any decent numbers. But I have long suspected that they faded partially because people turned their attention to newer morphs. Let's face it, for any dart frog to make it in captivity, there has to be a minimum number of breeders who can dedicate resources to keeping the line going. I hope I'm wrong, but I find it hard to believe we have enough dedicated pumilio breeders in the US to be able to keep all of the current morphs stable, let alone growing.

But I wouldn't count blue jeans out yet. There are still a few around and there is still a glimmer of hope for them.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

A few things I have noticed about pums. While there have been a decent number of success stories of finding pumilio froglets and the WC imports from the last few years seem fairly fecundate , the number of froglets found that reach adult breeding age is low. Think about the thousands of pums that have come in in the last few years and the very low number of CB juvis or older being offered for sale. The Pums' state of health once offered for sale seems to be better than many of the BJs' and pums' of old and adult pums are not an overly sensitive frog to keep but raising froglets to adulthood remains problematic.
Also, the number of "Darklands" in the hobby may in fact be a bit smaller than thought as it is my belief that some "Darklands" produce in the last few years are actually Chaucheroes. This labeling issue may not be limited to "Darklands" alone.

Rich


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Now that you mention it Rich, I've never seen an F2 mancreek for sale.


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