# Substitute to leaf litter?



## djd3mon (Jan 24, 2018)

The only leaf litter I am able to find locally and online is magnolia leaves.

After having it in my tank for a few days it just appears to big and bulky for my small 20 gal long tank.

Is there something else I can use instead of leaf litter where the frogs can stull hide in it? 

Thanks


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## CarsonH (May 14, 2007)

try crunchin ghtme up between your hands, or cutting them smaller. leaf litter seems to be very good for the frogs, so try and keep skme inm there


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## Roscoe09 (Dec 30, 2017)

You add coconut hides. But don’t take the leaves out consider shredding them.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Live oak leaves are a lot smaller, and might be more to your liking. You could break up the magnolia leaves, though that might not be the most aesthetically pleasing option. Check the classifieds section. Sometimes people offer leaf litter there. Oh, I just remembered you probably aren't able to access that yet. Well, you probably will be, soon. In any case, you may just have to wait and keep checking for availability. Someone is sure to offer some. In the meantime, at least you have something they can use for now.


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## jarteta97 (Jun 13, 2014)

Also, keep in mind that magnolia leaves can just look too bulky and even colorful when first placed in a viv, almost unnatural. After a few weeks and/or months, the leaves will start to break down and fade/darken in color and look a lot more natural. The best thing about magnolia leaves is that they provide an instant network of hiding places for the frogs.


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## harrisbt (Feb 19, 2013)

Lots of folks use oak leaves (red, white pin, and live oak are all really common). Live oak is thick and sometimes glossy like magnolia, but much much smaller. Just make sure you get a thick layer of leaves -- at least an inch on average, with some spots closer to 2 inches thick.


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## djd3mon (Jan 24, 2018)

Woodswalker said:


> Live oak leaves are a lot smaller, and might be more to your liking. You could break up the magnolia leaves, though that might not be the most aesthetically pleasing option. Check the classifieds section. Sometimes people offer leaf litter there. Oh, I just remembered you probably aren't able to access that yet. Well, you probably will be, soon. In any case, you may just have to wait and keep checking for availability. Someone is sure to offer some. In the meantime, at least you have something they can use for now.


Ive thought about just crushing them up, was just wondering if there was a different way of doing things. I netter stick to what has obviously worked for everyone else! I have seen some for sale recently, I just spent $30+ on 3 bags of mag leaves. On the next build I will wait for Live Oak leaves. For now I will start crushing them a little and leave a few big leaves whole.


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## djd3mon (Jan 24, 2018)

jarteta97 said:


> Also, keep in mind that magnolia leaves can just look too bulky and even colorful when first placed in a viv, almost unnatural. After a few weeks and/or months, the leaves will start to break down and fade/darken in color and look a lot more natural. The best thing about magnolia leaves is that they provide an instant network of hiding places for the frogs.


Good to know they will breakdown rather quickly.

Thank you


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

In an ideal world, leaf litter would not be optional. Leaf litter is about so much more than establishing hides. Sure, leaf litter is responsible for filling the entire floor of the viv with a series of interconnected hides. No, I don't know of any other method that can fill your vivarium with tunnels and hidey holes, without any planning, or anything other than a simple flick of the wrist. Other hidey holes you go out of your way to create, are great, but they are unchanging. A network of tunnels and caves, created by leaf litter, is constantly changing. This gives your frogs a little bit of variety in their day to day lives, as they discover a tunnel that was not there yesterday. 
So, we all know that leaf litter does fantastic things for us, and our frogs, in creating a magnificent playground and safety network for your frogs. We also know that this leads to bolder frogs. 
The thought that a couple handfuls of leaves can completely change the behavior of a frog, is pretty cool, but it's still not why we use it, and it's still not a reason to be irreplaceable. 

You choose your frogs, for you. You get to be selfish here, and choose whatever floats your boat. Choose wisely, because what you choose, should dictate everything else about your vivarium. 

You build your vivarium for your frogs. Are you looking at arboreal thumbnails? Then build a vivarium concentrating on the walls. Are you building for Tincs? You better have plenty of space on the ground for them.

*You install your leaf litter for the bugs.* Your leaf litter is quite literally, the backbone of your ecosystem. That same network of tunnels and caves, also becomes home to a large, healthy population of microfauna, such as springtails and isopods. That magical little, leaf litter, "house", the bugs live in, is kind of like Hansel and Gretel's gingerbread house, right down to the wicked witch trying to eat them! It is also their food. As the leaf litter decomposes, It inspires your population of microfauna to "go forth and multiply". 
You may think to yourself, "But this is in my living room. I don't want to deliberately add things to it that will rot and smell." 
You cannot stop things from decomposing in your viv. Wood will rot. Leaves will die, fall, and rot. However, by establishing a healthy backbone, you create an entire ecosystem. In this ecosystem, you build a plethora of bugs that will grow and thrive. These bugs are great snacks for your frogs, but more than that, these are your janitors. Your microfauna eats things as they decompose, and before they fill your vivarium and living room with the lovely aroma of rot and death. Without the bugs, the rot is there until it consumes itself and rots away. With the bugs, you create an ecosystem...a living, thriving, constantly changing HOME for your frogs, rather than a cage.
I like to tuck a grape, banana slice, piece of green pepper, or the like, into my leaf litter every couple weeks. This feeds the ecosystem and pushes bug populations even higher.


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## djd3mon (Jan 24, 2018)

Pumilo said:


> In an ideal world, leaf litter would not be optional. Leaf litter is about so much more than establishing hides. Sure, leaf litter is responsible for filling the entire floor of the viv with a series of interconnected hides. No, I don't know of any other method that can fill your vivarium with tunnels and hidey holes, without any planning, or anything other than a simple flick of the wrist. Other hidey holes you go out of your way to create, are great, but they are unchanging. A network of tunnels and caves, created by leaf litter, is constantly changing. This gives your frogs a little bit of variety in their day to day lives, as they discover a tunnel that was not there yesterday.
> So, we all know that leaf litter does fantastic things for us, and our frogs, in creating a magnificent playground and safety network for your frogs. We also know that this leads to bolder frogs.
> The thought that a couple handfuls of leaves can completely change the behavior of a frog, is pretty cool, but it's still not why we use it, and it's still not a reason to be irreplaceable.
> 
> ...



Thank you for explaining this!!

Very well written!


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Get in touch if/when you're on the hunt for some live oak. I just collected 100+ gallons, and you won't pay $30 for 3 bags


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