# Froglet suicide



## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

So this is a first for me and I wanted to see what everyone on the boards thought. I was feeding my froglets springtails today which are housed individually in 2.5 gallon tanks and I found my 5 month old Esperanza dead inside of a film canister I had laying on the Viv floor that must have filled up with water overtime. I don't think it is possible that it drowned but I am not an expert. The froglet was healthy and eating as I witnessed this myself just yesterday. I am pretty pissed to say the least and would like to see what everyone else thought so I can try to prevent this in the future. I guess to start the film canister didn't need to be in the Viv cause its only purpose was a place for the froglet to hide. The only other thing I can think of is that I started to add flies about a week ago but I am not sure that would have anything to do with it. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you started to add flies, only a week ago, then they have had only springtails and or isopods for almost 5 months? How were you addressing the froglet's calcium requirements?


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

maybe became stuck in water due to some kind of suction static resistence thing. been a long time since physics. I almost had a vanzo drawn in a droplet of water.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> If you started to add flies, only a week ago, then they have had only springtails and or isopods for almost 5 months? How were you addressing the froglet's calcium requirements?


I should have made that more clear I have only really started just feeding it mostly flies about a week ago I have had a few in the tank at a time but as I watch the froglet and I don't see it eat the flies I try not to add as a regular staple so I don't stress them out. When adding flies I use calcium plus like I do with all my other frogs. He only started to chase flies recently otherwise the froglet was on springs and baby iso's that the tank was seeded with. Should I be dusting these bugs before I feed? I never tried dusting springs or iso's. the froglet was nice and plump so I figured the spring and iso diet was ok until he fully was on flies which was just recent. When a froglet is not on flies how do I suplement for cal? Thanks for feedback...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

(disclaimer: my hands on experience with Oophaga is still rather limited, though I have done a lot of research on them) 
OK, I don't think it was a drowning. I think it was vitamin deficiency. The difficulty with froglets is the primary reason that Pumilio and other Oophaga are considered expert frogs. 
They generally morph out too small to take dusted fruit flies. They still have the need for vitamins and calcium, though. Dusting springtails and isopods is inefficient at best.
Several methods have been tried. This first method is tried and true, and is a good practice even if trying other methods, too.
1) Runted fruit flies. Don't throw your fly cultures away after 1 month. Instead, move them to a separate area for mite control. These older cultures will produce smaller, runt flies as it approaches burn out. These runted flies should be dusted and fed to your smallest Oophaga.
2) Feed them a few dusted flies even if they cannot take them. Even if they try to strike at them, but cannot take them, they are still getting a tiny bit of vitamin dust stuck to their tongues.
3) Liquid Calcium supplements like Repashy RescueCal can be applied to the frogs back. I have never tried this method. This method is completely useless if you do not somehow address the need for vitamin D, too. Frogs cannot process/utilize calcium properly if they do not have a source of vitamin D. A UVB light and a special top to allow it to penetrate could be used for this. 
4) Calcium enriched clay substrates to supply calcium and UVB lighting is a method that many are turning towards now. Here is my thread on how to make it. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
Here is the thread that started the clay movement. It explains more fully, why it works. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html

I use 1,2, and 4, although I have not YET worked UVB into my systems.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

Those are some great ideas..... I have raised many pumilio froglets with great success and I am still no pro so this advice will be thought about as I have a few more going now. I like the idea of dusted flies even tho they can't eat them but may be able to still get some of the dust.


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## OSU (Nov 10, 2008)

I also think that it is likely a vitamin deficiency especially given the time frame but that being said I always use leaf litter in my froglet tanks-it gives them a place to hide and food for springtails. I have seen froglets drown in some pretty safe looking puddles. I would pull the canisters just to be safe.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

OSU said:


> I also think that it is likely a vitamin deficiency especially given the time frame but that being said I always use leaf litter in my froglet tanks-it gives them a place to hide and food for springtails. I have seen froglets drown in some pretty safe looking puddles. I would pull the canisters just to be safe.


How do you know they drowned? Sick frogs often hang out in whatever pool of water they can find. They can then be found dead there. 
Unless you have had an autopsy performed, you have no way of knowing they drowned. It could just as easily have been stress, disease, heart attack, stroke, vitamin deficiency, or who knows what else.


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## OSU (Nov 10, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> How do you know they drowned? Sick frogs often hang out in whatever pool of water they can find. They can then be found dead there.
> Unless you have had an autopsy performed, you have no way of knowing they drowned. It could just as easily have been stress, disease, heart attack, stroke, vitamin deficiency, or who knows what else.


Here is what I know. I used to have a water feature in my tri color tank and after I found a second froglet floating dead in it I made it shallower and I stopped finding dead frogs in it. I _suspect_ they drown. I also originally said that in the case of the OP I thought his froglet death may be vitamin related given the time frame of the death. I know that is is when my retic froglets start to check out if they are not big enough for dusted food by then.

just my 2 cents


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

I had a healthy well started vanzo froglet almost drown in a drop of water I was transporting it to a meet. I believe a froglet can get stuck in a bubble of water.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Tricolor said:


> I had a healthy well started vanzo froglet almost drown in a drop of water I was transporting it to a meet. I believe a froglet can get stuck in a bubble of water.


If indeed a froglet could not muster up the strength to break the surface tension of the miniscus, I would question how healthy that froglet actually was.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

The froglet came to after fearing it was dead. It did not move for quite a while. It is one of about 20 now that I have housed for a year now. I cannot tell which is which but they all are doing well. J


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