# the care of D. lehmanni



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

While this frog can exist only in my collection in a dream for now, out of curiosity, has anybody cared for this species before?

What kind of conditions do they like? I think I once read they prefer cooler highland conditions like tricolor, and are seasonal breeders. Has Black Jungle had any success breeding them?

Where are the histos that occasionally filter into the hobby come from? (other than those smuggled from colombia)


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Once upon a time, histrionicus was openly and legally imported into the country in good numbers, they were cheap, sold in pet shops for $25, and nobody knew how to care for them. The ones we have today are mostly leftovers or offspring therof. Some may be smuggled from Colombia or exported from time to time from Europe (possibly laundered).


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Lehmanni*

I was fortunate enough to travel to the Lehmanni biotope several years ago, our guide said that a few years earlier the Lehmanni existed where we started our trek and the temps were around 80-85, as we walked the 5 hours up the mountain to where they existed then the temps grew noticably cooler, probably around 75. There seemed to be a constant mist in the air. Lots of cow pastures had taken over the forest areas, hate to think of what is left of the forest there now. 
The yellow lehmanni were spectacular, slightly larger and much thicker bands of color. We also found some that were fluorescent green.
Neat trip but far more dangerous than we ever realized.
Mark


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Over the years I've had probably 8 or 10 individuals and three color morphs of _D. lehmanni_. I kept them (and _D. histrionicus_ the same way I kept everything else - normal house temperatures in a tank set up with soil, leaf litter, and plants. They did remarkably well. I remember a group of bulls-eye _D. histrionicus_ came in looking like they'd die in a week or less - they turned around and did very well. I ended up sending them to a friend who ended up loosing them and many other frogs (my mistake). 

Best,

Chuck


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

How many color forms are there of D. lehmanni?

I know of the yellow, orange, and red...but never a green one. Isn't there a blue one though?

Did you ever have success breeding them Chuck?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The blue is a form of histrionicus, not lehmanni, tho the form does look similar to lehmanni (look for lehmanni's white toes). From what I know of them you've got the yellow, orange, and red.. the dendrobatidae books said they were by elevation... NAIB had a pair way back when, yellow female, red male (I still have pics of them, although crappy). They produced orange young... and orange in the wild are between the yellow and red... 

The pair at NAIB had a behind the scenes hidden life exhibit all to themselves. From what I've heard of other people, big tanks for a pair, bland tanks, and not messing with the frogs at all was how they survived. I've heard two phrases about them... take their picture and they die. Move their tank and they die. Sensitive frogs to say the least.

When I first started out, D. lehmanni were one of the few PDFs I actually liked, but they were, and still are IMO out of my legue, even if I could get some, but a truely awesome frog.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*PAf*

You would be surprised what people have done who thought something was out of there league.
cya


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

My experience has been similar as Chuck Powell said; pretty much the same as my other tanks and I would have to say that I don't think the Red Head Histo is as weak and fragile as some make it out to be, IF it is healthy. Don't get me wrong I think this should only be in the hands of experienced individuals and looking back now I should have not purchased the ones I did. The individuals I have spoken with who are knowledgeable in keeping and breeding these would also say that they are actually strong if well cared for. It was also recommended to me to have heavily planted tanks, some of them kept in smaller "breeder" tanks and others in larger. I think the BIG concern on these frogs, again just in my limited experience, is that you don't want them to slip into stress or disease. I think you will have GREAT trouble getting them back into good health so you have to stay on top of good feeding and nutritional habits and you must keep them free of parasites, worms, fungus, etc. or you will lose them quickly.


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## Guest (Nov 29, 2005)

So, how long will it be before captive-bred individuals become available? I know they are out there.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I don't think they are going to be available till they become legal to export again.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*frogs*

Doesnt seem like such a problem with keeping them alive as it is keeping prices sky high.


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## dmatychuk (Apr 20, 2005)

I agree on the prices but some of them are fair and some are not. I should not have made it seem easy to keep either.........this is not true. IF your frog is healthy then great and be very attentive to its needs. If it gets sick, I believe you have a MUCH smaller window of opportunity to see the animal recover which is probably why a frog that was plentyful has all but disappeared in the hobby.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

histrionicus or lehmannis from Colombia have never been legally exported. Years ago, when Colombia didn´t take the CITES stuff seriously, a lot of people just taked the frogs in hundreds and exported them in their luggage or shippments, and the government didn´t do anything, the policemen in airports were just curious about those nice frogs, but didn´t say a word. This doesn´t means that they really had export papers, or that those histos were legal. Histos (at least colombian ones) never have been legally exported.

Lehmanni not only lives in highland populations. There are also lowland populations in the chocó, at 450-600 meters above sea level. Are the Cauca valley and southern choco populations the one who lives in highland (even not all).

they are not seasonal breeders, but just hard... I think a whole new system must be developed to incress the success with this histo group frogs, as they are so different in behavior than other darts. Investigations must be made in pair bonding, stablishing territories and need of atmospheric pressure changes for breeding success. I don´t really believe that they are exclusive bromeliad breeders, I saw a wild population, and not even one bromeliad were in their habitat. Their requeriments depends from where is the histo morph from. Is not the same to keep a lowland morph where the land become flooded every winter (they lives in fallen trunks) than keep a highland or cloudforest morph (like bullseye). Bullseye walks really odd! like an Atelopus! :? I saw once in a terrarium here...

Great topic, keep posting your personal experience and hypothese with this frogs... I´ll post a new hypothese on chocoan histos soon.

Mark, then this green lehmanni morph is not a myth? I have heard stories, but never a pic or real references.
Blue lehmanni suposedly exists. I don´t know where, but I know one of the lehmanni populations lives close to where the blue histo morph lives, so maybe is a natural hybrid between the blue histo morph and lehmannis.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

ah, I just forgot
lehmannis and histos are hardy animals, just the smugglers treat them like crap, so they are exported in a very bad shape. The stress of the capture and transport (sometimes more than 14 hours crowded in a small plastic bottle, in a heat of hell inside a bus without count the time at the intermediary dealer and the stress of the exporting trip) makes them sensible to bacterial, fungus and parasite diseases because the stress. And in tanks, dominant males also stress the another males. I don´t know if this behavioural stress makes the frogs also prone to sickness...


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> I've heard two phrases about them... take their picture and they die. Move their tank and they die. Sensitive frogs to say the least.





> ah, I just forgot
> lehmannis and histos are hardy animals, just the smugglers treat them like crap, so they are exported in a very bad shape.


From what I've heard, pumilio are actually tougher than many other PDF, its just the breeding that seems to be the real trouble.

I think it'd be interesting to see how they come in if a group of scientists would collect them, and personally escort them back to the US or the UK.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Forgot to add...how would you change the air pressure to simulate the highland environment?!?

Is that really necessary if they can be found in lowland habitats as well?

Corey mentioned that a yellow and red leh makes a orange one (I think I remember that rule from art class :lol: )

Are these natural cross morphs, or just lots of variation in a single population?


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

the atmospheric pressure changes is not to emule highland, but to emule the weather changes before a heavy rain. And yes, that orange are natural crossed morphs. Lehmanni also is in more or less crossed with the histos that lives near it. It´s something like a gradient of species, more or less histo, more or less lehmanni...


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

If there are naturally existing hybrids, in their natural environment, doesn't that imply that the species distinction is dubious? I.E. that there is no such thing as lehmanni, just a different morph or subspecies of histrionicus.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

*L*

I was wondering the same thing,It would seem that they are the same species according to what has been said or only where the two overlap.That is pretty cool really.If accurate
cya


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Just what I thought...

That could explain why lehmanni are classified as "critically endangered," but it has more to do with a tiny range like D. azureus has.

That leads back to whether or not azureus should be called a tinctorius instead (but lets leave it that way, so the Surinam gov. will continue to protect them).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

People get hung over the old inability to interbreed definition of species. This has come about as a way to give people a simple definiton that covers the widest variety of animals but often does not hold up when dealing with herps. 
If you look in the back of a lot of field guides you can see that there are a number of different hybridization zones for a lot of different species of herps. This is because the animals inhabit similar or close niches allowing for the hybridization event to occur. This does not mean that all of the animals in these zones are hybrids but that hybrids are known to occur within those ranges. 

There is a difference between this and the tinct/azureus issue as azureus are not genetically distinct from tincts on DNA analysis (unpublished data). 

Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed said:


> People get hung over the old inability to interbreed definition of species.
> 
> Ed


Are biologists going to go ahead and provide the rest of us with a new definition? Or is it just majority rule (via willingness or unwillingness to accept a species definition)?


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Catfur said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > People get hung over the old inability to interbreed definition of species.
> ...


What Ed was trying to say is that ability to interbreed has never been a viable paradigm for speciation. I'm not sure that has been a "scientific" definition for several decades. There are a variety of different factors that can go into determining whether a population of animals is a distinct species (geographic, physiological, genetic, etc.).

The biggest problem is that a "species" is a human imposed concept, and we are trying to retrofit nature into this concept. I would recommend looking into auditing a course on evolution at a local college if this is something that interests you.

All the best,

Homer

Edited to add:

Ed, sorry if I misinterpreted you. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I refer you to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species

I suggest reading the entire thing as it sums it up with the idea that no one definiton is suitable for all taxa and especially the hybrid zone explination under the heading the isolation question. 

Hi Homer you were pretty much on the money but the above defintion is pretty good at covering all of the relavent information. It just irks me when the outddated defintions are dogmatically applied. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I always assumed that this was the way you classify species, as I know plants are notorious for cross breeding but remaining fertile (in fact, several plant "species" are now known to be natural hybrids.)

I guess one example of what Ed could be talking about, I believe many types of Canis can cross breed and produce fertile young. But they are still classified as different species, and probably should be. Many domesticated cattle and pigs were cross bred with other species to produce new breeds.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

Lehmanni is separated from histrionicus because:
* absence of histrionicotoxins, it has pumiliotoxins
* white foot tips (not included in the description of the species, but for me it´s important, because any of the histo morphs have this)
* "banded morph" in more or less degree
* for being a higland species (850-1300 Meters above sea level). This one is not valid anymore, with the lowland populations at 450-600 meters above sea level.
* diferences in call (could be understood as normal call diferences between histo populations)
Histo is an species, but in its road to speciation, it still can interbreed with histos. For example, auratus can interbreed with tincs, and they are 2 valid species, but as I know they aren´t fertile . Hybrids lehmanni-histos are fertile, so they obviously are closer in the evolutive tree. 

-Now personal hypothese-
lehmanni (even the Dagua Cauca Valley southern populations) have the same design as the chocoan histo populations, with signal spots on legs (not flash coloration to avoid predators, but maybe a visual signal for breeding behavior). Any of the Cauca valley, Cauca or Nariño histos have this pattern. So you can guess the evolutive pathway in lehmanni and some of the chocoan histos (blue morph, bullseye) as an insulation in moist refuges, but the insulation was not enough in time or in insulation from lowland populations. Lehmanni are a typical highland species distributed along the western flank in the western mountain range, but the southern populations are not the original radiation point. For me, it radiated from the northern populations (or maybe the they radiated to north and south from a place called the serrania de los paraguas) traveling by the mountain range (cordillera) after the raising of the andes. I say after, because no egg feeders can be found in the east flank of the west mountain range. They couldn´t cross the highlands ot that cordillera.

if anyone wants to publish this as your phD thesis, just put my name in the credits :wink: 

2 more things
* If you want to understand all this mess, you have to take your world atlas and take a look in Colombian geography. In this map, I try to point all the known populations of lehmanni. 
* If something is not understood, just tell me. For me its really easier to explain this mess in spanish, so maybe there are a lot of mistakes in this explanation


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

are they truly critically endangered, or is it just because they have such a tiny range they're classified on the Redlist of ICN?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Rain_Frog said:


> are they truly critically endangered, or is it just because they have such a tiny range they're classified on the Redlist of ICN?


"Red List Category Rationale: Listed as Critically Endangered because its Area Of Occupancy is less than 10km2, its distribution is severely fragmented, and there is continuing decline in the extent and quality of its habitat Choco and Valle del Cauca Departments, Colombia."

"It occurs in the Farallones de Cali National Natural Park. Management practices that could allow a commercial, sustainable harvest of this species should be investigated. Decree INDERENA No. 39 of 9 July, 1985, forbids the collection of Dendrobates spp. from the wild for breeding (or other) purposes. It is listed on Appendix II of CITES."

Source: Global Amphibian Project

I don't know if you meant to imply that something isn't "truly" endangered if it has a small range, but having a small range is probably one of the largest factors in determining the status of a species.

ColombianFrogger, you may find this interesting regarding your question about pumilio morbidity in transit if done by scientists:

"The majority of pairs did not produce surviving
offspring, and only two pairs produced more
than a single surviving offspring. Approximately
half of the offspring produced (i.e., observed as
embryos or tadpoles) did not survive to metamorphosis.
A total of 16 offspring survived
through metamorphosis during the four months
of the study. Unfortunately, 10 of these juveniles
died in transit or as a result of stresses induced
during transport from Panama to the United
States. Three juveniles died in the United States,
and three survived the juvenile period in
captivity."

Cross-Breeding of Distinct Color Morphs of the Strawberry
Poison Frog (Dendrobates pumilio) from the Bocas del Toro
Archipelago, Panama
K. SUMMERS


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

yes, they are really endangered. Another dendrobates species, D. altobueyensis for example only has an extension range of 90 km, smaller than lehmanni and it is classified as Vulnerable. The problem with lehmanni is not only the small distribuction, but the heavy deforestation of their habitat for cattle pastures, and yes, the traffic has done its part. Few months ago, I was talking with some guys of the government and at a zoo, and they told me even the smugglers have problems locating them, because it has been heavily smuggled, and they have cleared entire populations... Some populations are protected now because the war in that places.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

How successfully have they been bred? Are the juveniles just as touchy as histrionicus and BJ pumilio?

What is their status in the European hobby?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hijack alert 

Hi Marcos,

The problem with that paper is it doesn't define why the mortality in transit was so high. 
In general, animals that are collected properly and maintained properly do far far better than those that are collected for and aquired via the pet trade. As a counter example of the situation listed above I refer you to the collecting trips by the Baltimore Zoo for Atelopus zeteki where no animals were lost during collection and transport and the animals even laid fertile eggs during transit. 
The same can be said for the collection trips by the National Aquarium for D. azureus (although they didn't breed while in transit). 

Ed


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Yes, it seemed a bit high, it is just the only article that immediately came to mind that covered dendrobates, shipping, and scientists.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is another one but it doesn't necessarily cover mortality see 

Gorzula, Stefan; 1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3):116-123

Ed


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> are they truly critically endangered, or is it just because they have such a tiny range they're classified on the Redlist of ICN?


A tiny range, by definition, would make any species (even an abundant one) endangered. Any sort of human destruction, climactic change, etc. could theoretically destroy the entire habitat in one fell swoop.
Evan


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

It's funny, as I just re-read that paper a while back and was also surprised at the extremely high mortality rate. I have collected/exported a couple of species of dendrobatid (legally) and have had survival at about 97% at 6 months after arrival...
Never had them breed in the process of shipping, but had clutches the week they arrived...
Anyway, thought I'd chip in my $.02,
~B


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## aneides (Apr 12, 2005)

*breeding*

When I was at NAIB I had the opportunity to work with the pair of D.lehmani that someone else had mentioned (one yellow, one red). The animals were already established when I arrived there, which I would say is the main reason why I had the opportunity to try to breed them. 

The "hidden life display" which they were set up in was about 2 foot X 2 foot X 4 foot tall (anyone who has actually measured one of these feel free to correct me, it has been a while). 

The back of the viv had rockwork and a canister filter operated water feature. I installed a variety of broms throughout at different levels. A large humidifier was installed above it and a white collapsable duct delivered the fine mist to the tank from above. 

We fed mostly pinhead and 2 week old crix

Breeding was successful fairly soon after introduction to the tank.

The baby frogs we found were generally more red than orange initially. As they grew they faded to a kind of peach color. I think that the red was probably dominant and the fading was due to lack of dietary components. 

Brian


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The hidden life exhibits where more like 3 x 3 x 4 - I crawled in them plenty of times to get stuff out of the back or help replant them to know they definately werne't 2 x 2 lol.

I believe Ron G. still has NAIB lehmanni pics from when that pair was breeding, and he tested some color supplimentation.

With:
http://www.frognet.org/albums/kikker-histrionicus/naibtest2.jpg

Without:
http://www.frognet.org/gallery/kikker-histrionicus/naibtest1

When I started working the crickets were being fed sweet potatoes/yam as half their diet (the other was romaine lettuce). Pinheads actually looked orange because of the yam in their gut. The lehmanni, which if fed a mainly cricket diet, would color up to a degree with this stuff in the crix (or that at least looked to be what happened, they definately looked like Ron's supplimented animals). All the CBs I saw had a nice orange to them.

Due to hearing about natural integrades in the wild that had orange lehmanni, I don't think they would had gone red, no matter how well they were supplimented for color. It would be similar to the yellow and white bastis which come out of the water red, but then change color as they mature. Sometimes its hard to tell whats genetics and whats lack of a complete diet in non-supplimented frogs.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

so, the froglets actually LIVED, compared to neonate histos and BJ pumilio?


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Hi Rain_Frog,
I may have skipped over a lot of this thread, but I never had problems w/ blue jeans pumilio surviving back in the day...
~B


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes, the results of Brian's efforts lived a number of years before they slowly disapeared one by one when on display in the hidden life exhibits. They were definately full grown and well past the "6 month" stage, and stunning animals. I wasn't into PDFs originally when I started there, but something about lehmanni was just really cool. Maybe it was the white toes. They are basically the top of the PDF pyramid for me, I would eventually like to keep them. Currently I neither have the confidence, money, or source for them :lol: But hey, not much longer til I can say I've been in the hobby for a decade, you think thats enough creds for them? Frog God(ess) status here I come :twisted:

The problems with BJ pumilio is getting them to care for their tadpoles more than having them survive. Its been a while since the "never lived past 6 months" thing has been true - but when it was it was across the board for egg feeders, at the time the most common were histos and BJs. Our hobby has advanced, we know more of what they need (not long before the "never lived past 6 months" thing we couldn't even get pumilo to breed! Especially when we kept trying to raise the tads ourselves...)

At this point I think the biggest problem with egg feeders in the hobby is getting pairs of animals together in the first place, then trying to get them to breed after that.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

the reason why I brought that up because of Robb's histo froglets not making it past 6 months, and the discussion about BJ pumilio froglets dying when they are moved.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

yes, thats a real problem, at least with the histos and lehmanni froglets in many places. It may be because lack of food eggs in the tadpoles. I dont think it is related with the parents. Maybe stress too, but I dont know...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Wouldn't letting the juvies live in the parent's viv for the first 6+ months be a more likely way around this? This has been recomended with a number of the pumilio (including BJs) because they were so hard to raise out of the tank individually. They fed of the fauna already in the tank, plus the food the parents were getting. No stress of moving (especially to what might be a bare tank which added more stress) and the food supply seems to be good. Robb mentioned this in his article as a version of more successful raising of these frogs.

With the pumilio I've had in the past, I never pulled the froglets until they were at least half sized and almost sexable - its the only way I had good survivorship. The only time I really did well raising them outside the parents' tank was in 5.5s set up for froglets - full of leaf litter with tons of goodies in them (not very different from the environment they came from). But then I kept them individually, and those tanks were usually used for tricolor - I couldn't keep many pumilio outside the tank so I just stopped taking them out.

Wouldn't this in theory work for the histos and lehmanni?

Ben E's compost tank would be another good idea if it truely was due to food like the theory in Robb's Histo article. Especially with such small neonates food can be an issue - something I've looked into a lot due to the small neonate size of Atelopus, a major interest of mine. If neonate death is due to poor health of the froglet, diet could be a major factor, variety in food being a key (but also a lot of work, I could easily spend as much time working with food items as the frogs themselves, and I haven't even attempted the aphids or other really time consuming foods yet). Compost tanks take a lot of work out of this, culturing the smaller food items that may be key to these guys doing well, with little effort. I'd planned to have a small scale compost tank for the atelopus to metamorph into - Having an adult breeding pair of histos/lehmanni in a large version of this tank would also give the neonates being raised in there a better start. The tanks hold more invertabrate spp. and variety than we could even give with our monocultures of critters.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

could it also be that fruit flies just aren't that good for egg feeder froglets?

I find it hard to believe that removing frogs out of a tank cause more stress, considering the adults are very territorial animals. How would keeping them individually be a problem?

Perhaps it could also be because the froglets acquire trace elements from the microfood in the compost, which is NOT present in our vitamin supplements and fruit flies.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Stress of being moved into a new environment, the froglet set ups I've seen a lot of people keep are very bare and different from the parent tanks - sphagnum moss and a pothos clipping often. It might work for tincs, but would be extremely stressful for a shy animal - no places to hide. Lots of leaf littler could help. Also just the stress of capture - its enough to kill a zaparo, so I'd guess its plenty to kill a tiny histo or lehmanni. The healthy ADULTS are seriously stressed by a move, how would a tiny juvie very bad at handling stress deal with it?

Are the adults aggressive towards the juvie animals? I had juvie tricolor morph out in tank and where completely ignored, that is til they started coloring up and getting close to calling size. At that point they were becoming competition and became beating posts for the established males. Kicking them out of the nest so to speak. But these guys also have a color change that in some cases coincides around the time they start to mature - lehmanni/histos morph out pretty much with these colors already. I just really don't see them getting pushed around until they were good sized - at that point you'd want to take them out anyways, and they'd be past the sensitive stage.

There is also the fact that an established tank, especially with leaf litter bottoms, has a lot of little food items in there. More than we'd supply in a seperate container thats fresh. My 5.5s seem to work well due to them basically being compost heaps, lots of little buggies, and were very established - probibly had more food than they'd find in the parent tanks.

These guys come out of the water so tiny evidently that they'd choke on FFs. Robb's article says they come out the same size as a retic. A typical white springtial is probibly on the larger side of the spectrum of foods they can eat. Variety of food might help out a lot, but what do you feed a frog that almost chokes on FFs?

It was hypothesized on FrogNet that the reason pumilio might die off at 6 months was due to their diet being made up of mostly one critter - springtails - which aren't the most nutritionally balanced food out there (especially lacking in calcium). I actually fed my pumilio juvies aphid babies as the main part of their diet, springtails, nematodes, and a couple other very small invertabrates were present in the leaf litter compost that they ate as well. When they where larger I started to toss in freshly hatched (literally just coming out of the dirt) pinheads for them to munch on. At the time I didn't even culture FFs. I think the variety of diet might have been the saving grace - I was a complete newbie at the time and was making it up as I went along.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

http://home.comcast.net/~treasuredtymes ... s_0201.jpg

is this a true histo or lehmanni?


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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

Histo, due to the lack of white toes. Also, those came in from a known histo locale. (trust me, the guy who brought them in would have sold them as lehmanni if there was any chance)

Alexander


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Lehmanni typically have the first digit or so on their toes as white - tho I've seen sylvaticus that sometimes have this characteristic too (and were mislabled lehmanni because of it). All pretty closely related I guess.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

yes, that one is an histo, but it lives near a chocoan populations of lehmanni. Im not saying that is an hybrid or something like that, it just lives near a lehmanni population...


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

is there anything being done about their conservation? Has chytrids affected them due to highland environment?


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

well, not all the lehmanni populations lives in highland, some of them lives at 450-600 meters above sea level.

And no, chytrid has not afected lehmanni or histrionicus populations. The main problem with lehmanni is the destruction of their habitat, to grow cattle and now to grow coca. Traffic is also a problem, but the real problem is deforestation.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I don't want to stray too much off topic, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Most highland dart frogs like tricolor aren't affected by chytrids as much as Atelopus (tricolors are found I believe in the same areas) because tricolors do not raise their young in rivers typically, and can breed multiple times a year, whereas Atelopus breed once a year?

I remember Corey mentioning it one evening.


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

yes, thats true sometimes. Darts are not river habitants as Atelopus are. Some darts can become infected with chytrid via infected tree frogs who lives in bromeliads, where the frogs put their tadpoles. Im not telling that darts arent afected by chytrid, but the problem is not so drastic as in Atelopus. Colostethus, in the other hand, are a highly susceptible group species because their living habits close to rivers.

Ah, and I havent been in Ecuador, but as far as I know, tricolor and Atelopus species doesnt lives close each other.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Atelopus and tricolor (or PDFs in general) use two different breeding tactics. Atelopus are more typical toads like "explosive" breeders - seasonally once a year they congregate for egg laying. PDFs lay a few eggs at a time, but can breed multiple times over the whole year.

I don't think the differences in breeding habits determine whether they _get_ chytrid or not... I guess in the PDF case it would take a lot longer for it to effect a population where as an explosive breeder can have it quickly spread thru most of the population in one breeding season? I never really thought about it. I do see the fungus traveling down river populations due to frogs and other factors (does it spread thru the water?) where is an isolated pool wouldn't have as many frogs, and the frogs probibly aren't as likely to travel to various pools and spread it. I wonder if this has anything to do with why some species might be more likely than another to get it?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

thought I might bring this back up, considering we got a little sidetracked in the Wanted section. :wink: 

Vallecauca (if you read this), if histos and lehmanni cannot handle their own bacteria, then how do they get to us in the first place? I know that losses are very high from imports, but I would think we'd have a 100% mortality then if they couldn't handle anything else except colombian or ecuadorian microbes.

Are we sure we're dropping the temperature far enough at night? I have heard things like aeronomas bacteria (responsible for redleg) breeds like wildfire at 78 degrees. From keeping Xenopus in the past, supposedly you cannot keep them above 75 for extended periods of time because (and I cannot get a straight answer) either its there immune system that becomes compromised, or that the bacteria level grows exponentially and then the frogs cannot handle it. (but it could be all related). Additionally, you can buy a product called Koizyme that will outcompete aeronomas and pathogenic bacteria if you have overheating in the summer...but that is only for Xenopus.

Is it possible that these problems develop because of the lack of alkaloids in their diet (for neonate survival rate, and adults)? I know that many skin secretions of frogs are really to ward off infection.

I highly agree with the statement about allowing frogs to choose their partners. Just because you have a male and female doesn't mean they're going to like one another or produce the best offspring. That is the way nature is. Animals have breeding instincts which lets them know "who's the best candidate." This is the same issue with keeping mantellas.... but, do you need more than one female in the tank as well? You really only mentioned the males, but you would want to make sure you got a good female too.

Rob (if you read this) how does the calcium glucomate help your egg feeders? I think we talked once in chat that you "hadn't suffered losses" after you started using it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Vallecauca (if you read this), if histos and lehmanni cannot handle their own bacteria, then how do they get to us in the first place? I know that losses are very high from imports, but I would think we'd have a 100% mortality then if they couldn't handle anything else except colombian or ecuadorian microbes. "endsnip

Its not that they cannot handle thier own (or other bacteria) but the treatment and handling that occurs in collection and transport causes the frogs to be immunocompromised as well as lacking in metabolic reserves to acclimate. 

snip "Are we sure we're dropping the temperature far enough at night? I have heard things like aeronomas bacteria (responsible for redleg) breeds like wildfire at 78 degrees."endsnip

Red-leg is one of the most frequently misdiagnosed by hobbyists issues with amphibians. This term is often applied to any situation in which there is a redding of the ventral surfaces of the amphibian. This reddening can also be caused by protozoal, fungal (including chytrid), or mechanical causes and if seen postmortum can be the result of blood pooling in the lowest sections of the frog causing the coloration. In addition, real red-leg (a septicemia) can be caused by (if my memory is correct) at least 20 different bacteria, the vast majority of which are ubiquitous to the enclosures we keep the amphibians. 
While some Aeromonas does show a maximal growth rate at 23 C but it does grow well at 14 C and can infect amphibians at temperatures higher and lower that these temperatures. In any case, the other pathnogenic bacteria that been implicated in "red-leg" also have different temperatures at which the show a maximal growth... 

snip From keeping Xenopus in the past, supposedly you cannot keep them above 75 for extended periods of time because (and I cannot get a straight answer) either its there immune system that becomes compromised, or that the bacteria level grows exponentially and then the frogs cannot handle it." endsnip 

It is more likely that the frogs become immunosuppressed over time. The bacteria cannot grow exponetially until they overwhelm a healthy frog's immune system unless the cage conditions are not kept in a hygenic fashion... 

snip "Additionally, you can buy a product called Koizyme that will outcompete aeronomas and pathogenic bacteria if you have overheating in the summer...but that is only for Xenopus. "endsnip 

Sounds like snake oil to me. The vast majority of the bacteria that are pathnogenic are normal fauna not only of the fauna of the enclosures (and the enviroment) but also of the fauna found in the frogs' bodies. I am skeptical that that the product will
1) displace and "out compete" the normal fauna 
2) will prevent the normal fauna from establishing itself in the enclosure


snip "Is it possible that these problems develop because of the lack of alkaloids in their diet (for neonate survival rate, and adults)? I know that many skin secretions of frogs are really to ward off infection."endsnip 

The antimicrobial secretions found in amphibian skin tend to be seperate from the alkaloids found in Dendrobatid frogs and mantellas for a full review I refer you to Biology of the Amphibians, The Integument, edited by Heatwold. 

Ed


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

I have not seen any need to use Calcium gluconate for egg feeders. The problem with them is nothing more than a inmunosupress due stress. I really have doubts about they cant handle nothing but their own bacterial load. An inmunosuppresed animal cant even handle their own bacterial load, and the deaths by septicemia are in most times caused by bacteria who lives normally in the frogs.


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

Snip snip. Well they (1.1 breeding-pairs for example) can handle their own bacteria in their very own tank very well, but they really can`t stand other frogs bacteria at all. Thats what the best breeders in Europe found out. And they have more than 40 years of experience with all kinds of frogs. Btw: This is not only for lehmanni and histrionicus group frogs! Every frog does better when it can "spread" its own bacteria. I myself have only good experience with putting the frogs in "sterile" tanks and letting them "decorate" it with their bacteria. My Sylvatius startet breeding and feeding within 7 days and they did well for several years (They were about 6 years old when I got them and at that time I still was quite a beginner!) 




> I know that losses are very high from imports, but I would think we'd have a 100% mortality then if they couldn't handle anything else except colombian or ecuadorian microbes. "endsnip


Let me explain my point to you again. Its not about the bacteria in Ecuador or Colombia, its about the bacteria the frogs themselves carry.
Here`s an example:
Before the Spanish went to Southern America during the Conquisita back in the days, all the indigenous people there lived with "their own bacteria", they had "their diseases" and their immune system was "used to it". But when the Spanish came they brought the Influenza with them and millions of indigenous people died because their IS was not able to handle the new disease.
Its the same with our frogs. If you put the frogs in an sterile (almost sterile at least) tank they will live with their own bacteria. But if there is already other bacteria in the tank they will very likely get that disease and show the symptomes quite quickly.
So if you for exampe take Propanole- Alcohol (Isopropyl-A.) and clean the glas of the tank with it before you put the new frogs in, I bet they will do better than frogs you put in a "conterminated tank".


Another problem of those smuggled frogs is, in my opinion, the bad treatment they get when they get shipped to us.
If you take for example an hobbyist, like the most of us froggers are, and let them smuggle frogs, you`ll not find that person putting the frogs in large numbers in small boxes and cans. They are bound to very small numbers (maybe 2 pairs per person at maximum) and they have to be very anxious about getting them to their countries alive. That means less stress for the frog in most of the cases and a mortality rate which is very low, maybe at 5% with an advanced frogger ( involves the "disease-factor").
But if you look at people who put hundreds of frogs in shoeboxes (commercial background), which will cause a lot of stress for the frogs because they sit on each other, you`ll definatly have a mortality rate of 75% and up, because these frogs sit on the one hand in the fecals of the other frogs (which might carry bacteria or fungi) and on the other hand they totally go nuts because there is a lot of territorial pressure if they see lots of other males for example sitting next to them.
The people who put them in those boxes will still make enough profit with the frogs who survived that trip. So they don`t have to care alot.

That`s it for today, got a final exam tomorrow morning and its already late here. Tomorrow evening I will do another post in better english :wink: 


Greetings
Andreas


@ Colombianfrogger: Its maybe a bit exaggerated by me saying they can`t handle ANYTHING but their own. Let me adjust my statement: They can handle their own bacteria best and they are better to cure then IMO.


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## ruthiesea (Jun 26, 2006)

*D. lehmanni availability*

In order to be expensive they must be availalbe. Does anyone where they can be purchased LEGALLY?


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

they cannot be purchased legally.
Colombia has never allowed legal exportations of lehmanni or histrionicus, and the ones in market comes from smuggled specimens. Now lehmanni is a critical endangered species, and maybe couldnt survive for more than 10 years if the smuggling continues. Yes, sometimes its offered, but think about it, you could be buying the very last individuals of a species...


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I don't think this was answered (correct me if I didn't see it) but is anything being done for them conservation wise? We mentioned why they are endangered, but no mentioning of what is being done for them. They are one of the classic "poster" frogs. The only D. lehmanni I own is on a shirt, in a calender, and I saw a D. lehmanni frog figurine I was tempted to get the other day at the gift shop. They are my favorite egg feeders and I sure hope they never go extinct.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Personally, I see that as the problem with some S. American countries lately. They go on an on about the disappearance of the rainforest but will not allow anything to be done about the life in them. Histos and lehmanni are prime examples of this. Some zoo, herpetology ring, or individual should organize a breeding program for these animals regardless of the delicate nature of the frogs.

Since Colombia has become so difficult to deal with, we would need UN and CITES sanctioning and an armed team of froggers just to get out with some. If their home country won't help defend these animals, then who will?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

that makes me wonder. How in the hell were we able to import terribilis?


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

Its very easy, just look for a poor guy who would do anything for some bucks or, in this case, cooperate with the guerilla.That`s how they do. Criminals are always very smart at finding solutions for their problems.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

We were able to import Terribilis because a guy from Berlin went to Colombia and smuggled several pairs out, along with D Occultator. He then bred them in Germany and exported a few hundred to the states. Back then Fish & Wildlife did not ask for paperwork on export from country of origin, different story today.


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

Those people (smugglers) are dangerous. I hate them.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I also want to point out that a captive breeding program for histos and lehmanni is much easier said than done - both of these species have been worked with by advanced keepers with limited success. Captive breeding outside the native country/habitat does not mean success, and rarely means anything for the wild population... and doesn't do anything for the rest of the ecosystem they come from (which if it collapses there is nothing for them to go back to, even if we somehow managed to actually get a stable captive population of them going, which has yet to be done).

Saving them in their native habitat with the ecology intact is the best goal, and due to politics, is not something easily done in this case.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

markpulawski said:


> We were able to import Terribilis because a guy from Berlin went to Colombia and smuggled several pairs out, along with D Occultator. He then bred them in Germany and exported a few hundred to the states. Back then Fish & Wildlife did not ask for paperwork on export from country of origin, different story today.


Hmmm...so theoretically speaking terribilis are illegal?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Theoretically speaking the majority of PDFs in the hobby fall under this "legality issue".


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

> Since Colombia has become so difficult to deal with, we would need UN and CITES sanctioning and an armed team of froggers just to get out with some. If their home country won't help defend these animals, then who will?


I dont think its the way to conserve species. In some places frogs are protected because the war, sad but true. No smugglers can come in and the forest are not logged so quickly as in Ecuador.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

That bottom line was meant to show just so how ridiculous of a measure it would take to get a few frogs out of there. It's one thing to farm raise something it's another to have fight criminals and terrorist for something we think looks nice in our vivariums. 

Not only that, but a good chunk of the things said about these frogs' care is similar to the attitude about pumilio in the early 90's...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And even of pumilio, only a handful of morphs have proven easy to breed... look at Blue Jeans... their population in captivity isn't a whole lot better than histos and lehmanni. We've come a long way in 20 years of frog keeping, and northern pumilio, lehmanni, histrionicus, grannies, and many other eggfeeders are way over the heads of most of the hobby... even some of the "tricks" I know about these frogs are not things that most of us can afford or even do in many cases. There is no "eureka" that will make these frogs easy... like learning to keep the eggs in with the parent pumilio was for the easy morphs....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

all it`s gonna take is some time and some specimens. ive just started on pumilio under a year ago and ive only been breeding them for 4 -5 months. ive already produced 14 froglets froma pair of chiriqui`s 10 from a pair of man creeks and 5 from a pair of bastis(last to breed) and my first clutch of man creeks are showing breeding activity at 4 months old. the 2 pairs i got from marcus bred w/in 6 days of arrivval and i`m now seeing tads w/ back legs. the only reason blue jeans arent around is because they shut them off w/out warning. why would someone try to breed something that"hard to breed" when you can get them for $20ea. i got rid of my last 2 breeding pairs of bluejeans because i thought i would be able to get more. why do you think you see histos breeding in germany? because they smuggle them in. they have a supply of them and they arent $400-$500ea over there. if these things can breed in the wild they can breed in your living room. we just havent had the access to them to go thru the trial and error to find out what were doing wrong. personally i think it has to do w/ temperature. all the symptoms that i see of histos and lehmanni froglets dyeing sounds like they are being kept too hot. these are the same symptoms ive seen w/ other hiland species when it was too hot here. this is just speculation as ive never had the chance to try breeding them.
there was a man in atlanta who was breeding 17 lehmanni outside his house every summer. he would commonly pull 50-60  juvis every year and call people to trade for auratus galacts etc. most people blew him off because they thought he was lying. well he had a garter snake invade his outside enclosure and lost about 50 or more lehmanni (including all his adults) and w/ nothing left but tads he lost the program. it was becasue he took the time when they were only $17ea to figure out how to breed them. if he can do it we all can do it. unfortunately, if you can get them, they are $500ea and up. how many people who know how to breed frogs can spend $2500 on a breeding project when you can end up w/ all males? not i at this point. and that is what will keep them from becoming common place. i know beginners who have obtained lehmanni and histos because they had the money. i cant even get on a list for any rare pumilio now. i know they are rare, but i dont think people are letting them go to anyone who actually has a chance to breed them, they all go to the highest bidder.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

on another note, you should see some of the kids at the shows and people who have been by here to pick up frogs. i had a 9 year old here who could name every frog i had and knew the latin names on some. ive got kids walking up to the table saying, "mommy i want a dart frog" and the mother replies no, "they are poisonous" then i hear "no they arent, they need the ants they eat in the wild to be poisonous" from about a 10 year old. 
i think Mark Pepper was 17 when his father brought him down here to see the farm. at that time he was already breeding 4-5 different pumilio and look what he`s doing now. mark was able to teach his family to take care of the darts so he could go to peru and start a business saving frogs. it`s usually a few people who make change and bring up the bar. and it usually jumps quick. i`m optimistic that it will happen. especially with dendroboard and the network being formed here. it`s centralizing this hobby and progressing this hobby quicker and quicker every year. do you know what we had to go thru years ago to find frogs? we had to find an ad in a magazine and hope the # was still in service. we had to send pics thru snail mail if we wanted to see what we were interested in buying. it is getting better and better every year. there are also a tremendous # of experienced hobbiests producing frogs which werenthere7 years ago. the amount of thumbnails present in the hobby has increased 10 fold. i think it`s just a matter of time.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

On the other hand...who's to say their may not be a more captive adaptable population of lehmanni or histronicus hiding out there?


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

snip: all it`s gonna take is some time and some specimens. end snip 

I wish that was the case, but these frogs have been in the hands of some of the most experienced froggers out there and we still have made very little progress with them. 

snip: the only reason blue jeans arent around is because they shut them off w/out warning. why would someone try to breed something that"hard to breed" when you can get them for $20ea. end snip


They also have a lot of trouble with actually eggfeeding their tadpoles. I'm worried about what you said about them shutting the frogs off, because you're right that once they shut off the importations the pumilio will slowly dwindle down again to where they were 2-3 years ago. Most people don't realize that bastis were super rare then. 

snip: why do you think you see histos breeding in germany? because they smuggle them in. they have a supply of them and they arent $400-$500ea over there. if these things can breed in the wild they can breed in your living room. we just havent had the access to them to go thru the trial and error to find out what were doing wrong. end snip

They are really rare in Europe also, I was just talking to a German frogger yesterday who said they are 500 eauros each for histrionicus and 800 each for lehmanni! That's around 620 each for histrionicus and 1021 each for lehmanni. 

snip: personally i think it has to do w/ temperature. all the symptoms that i see of histos and lehmanni froglets dyeing sounds like they are being kept too hot. these are the same symptoms ive seen w/ other hiland species when it was too hot here. this is just speculation as ive never had the chance to try breeding them. end snip

That's really interesting, I wonder if keeping them like silverstonii or highland tricolors wouldd help out. 

Jordan


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "snip: personally i think it has to do w/ temperature. all the symptoms that i see of histos and lehmanni froglets dyeing sounds like they are being kept too hot. these are the same symptoms ive seen w/ other hiland species when it was too hot here. this is just speculation as ive never had the chance to try breeding them. end snip 

That's really interesting, I wonder if keeping them like silverstonii or highland tricolors wouldd help out. "endsnip 


If this is case then why anecdotally does about six months seem to be the critical period whne most of the deaths occur? 
Temperature may be part of the issue, but I don't think it is the whole picture. 

Ed


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

These frogs are Colombian, right? This makes it sound overly simple, but shouldn't they be kept at high humidity and cool temps like the other Colombian frogs? What if there is a special invertebrate they eat that exist in the forest or some symbiotic bacteria or a specific plant required for their well-being? Without some wild studies, we may never know. 

However, someone has bred them according to one post so maybe that's not the case. The main problem with them probably was the treatment of the smugglers. If that is the case, that might explain delayed deaths once they appear to be acclimated. After all, nothing could probably live long after being carted around in a burlap sack, covered in possible family members and rivals without food or water for up to a week.

Sorry for ranting, but the idea of smuggling physically disgusts me.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Ed said:


> If this is case then why anecdotally does about six months seem to be the critical period whne most of the deaths occur?
> Temperature may be part of the issue, but I don't think it is the whole picture.
> 
> Ed


Good point. Another thing i'm wondering is how breeders such as Thomas Villegas or BJ can get froglets to adulthood and the point where they can sell them. How are those froglets being kept differently than the ones which don't live past 6 months?


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## ColombianFrogger (Jul 9, 2004)

Well, yes, in part the problem is the bad treatment of the smugglers, but not all the problem. Even with carefully taked from wild frogs is not easy. They just arent easy captives, are very very stressful under small enclosures, are highly territorial (both males and females) and need special structures for calling. As they are lowland, need the same temperatures as for bicolor. There are reports of water quality for sucessfully breding them, but I dont really know. And they in wild breeds all year long, you dont need to simulate rain seasons or keep the tank VERY wet, as they have very sensitive skins, and could be prone to foot fungus if keep too wet.

The real secret for breed them is... :? 
keep them in a big greenhouse... with fallen logs as calling places (always call in logs!) and they will breed really great. but dont expect to breed easily those frogs in small enclosures.


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## Onagro (Jun 9, 2006)

Figures it would be a greenhouse setting. Even if they were widely available, the average frogger could not properly contain them. What about the CB Histo's? Are they from the same conditions?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

that's probably the only way the person "raised them outside in Atlanta."

Its also possible that fruit flies may just not be an adaquet food source for juvenile histos/lehmanni...which is why a greenhouse setting would ensure all sorts of food in the substate...but chytrids is always a problem.

I also merit Valledecauca's argument about choosing their partners. Even from talking to bird breeders, you cannot just put two birds together and expect them to raise them properly. I've heard some ugly stories of female budgies or cockatiels rejecting the male (who isn't watching the nest properly) and nearly kill the other one.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Perhaps part of the equation has to do with often trying to breed them fairly soon after arriving in country. Perhaps they need a longer recovery period to rebuild fat stores, let the immune system recover and stuff...and perhaps that contributes to froglets not getting a good enough start and dying often by the 6month mark. just a thought, might be one of many factors


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With the six month comment I was referring to captive bred animals. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

so did i....i meant that they never got a good start because the parents never fully recovered before being put together to breed....just a theory


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

> They are really rare in Europe also, I was just talking to a German frogger yesterday who said they are 500 eauros each for histrionicus and 800 each for lehmanni! That's around 620 each for histrionicus and 1021 each for lehmanni.


Really rare?? since about 15 morphs where smuggled into Germany over the last 2 years I wouldn't say they are rare. One and a half year ago pairs where offered at the Hamm show for only 400 euros... just 6 months ago I've seen pairs offered for just 300 euros... I guess this German guy you talked to didn't know what he was talking about.

Cheers,
Remco


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

Remco, 

I am the German guy and the conversation was about CB histrionicus from a breeder who lives in northern Germany. As his lehmanni only produce small numbers of froglets the prices are that high.

The smuggled frogs are not really expensive, that`s true.
But that is a whole new topic.

Greetings
Andreas


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## Shockfrog (Apr 14, 2004)

Hi Andreas,
Thanks for pointing that out, it sure explains..! it wasn't said that those prices where for captive bred ones.

...Andreas.. we've met on another forum haven't we??

Cheers,
Remco


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

has anybody seen Black Jungle's histo and lehmanni display? I heard they keep some.


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

Remco, we`ve met on another forum before, that`s right.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I have to agree with Jordan's post on multiple counts, I'm sorry Aaron but I can't agree with most of the points you made. I've had the pleasure of knowing people who've worked and bred the histos, lehmanni, and BJs, and it just doesn't follow what you said.

The Bjs especially - it wasn't their low price that kept them from reproducing, it was lack of knowing how they bred. When we finally got the clue to leave the tads in there, BJs had stop coming in, with the exception of a stint of importation in the late 90s from Nicaragua. The Nic BJs proved to be horrid parents, raising few froglets to adulthood, if they ever raised any. The panama morphs have proven to be better parents.

I think one major factor of europeans having slightly more success than us CB wise (yes I realize they get a lot of smuggled frogs to keep the population up) is how they do tanks... this has been talked about a lot before how the european trend tends to be to have a very large tank, while this side of the pond tends towards seeing how small a tank we can get these frogs to breed in, so we can have as many different kinds as we can get.

The best breeding of these frogs I've heard of basically involved ugly tanks (right up my alley :roll: ) where there was just a couple of large bromeliads and leaf litter (which provided microfauna almost on the level of the compost tank by Ben Eiben and provided the needed food for the froglets to develop well and survive). This pair still produced only a handful of froglets a year - thats just the nature of the beast.

Onagro - remember that within a country, especially one with mountains, the habitat can very GREATLY depending on what side of the mountain it is, and various other things. There are hundreds of variations of rainforest, even within Colombia. We may be setting them up for the perfect stereotypical rainforest environment, but without knowing the microclimate they came from, we may bever get them to breed - one of the big problems with grannies. They come from a specific microclimate and don't seem to breed unless its replicated pretty well.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i can remember years back talking to paul bolognese, who kinda got me into the hobby and we were marveling at what it would be like to get 2 or 3 species breeding at one time, wouldnt that be great. then it was could we get terribilis to breed w/ the froglets being very touchy about "dirt in their morphing tank". i cant remember what the next hurdle was, oh ya breeding pumilio, now i see some being offered as captive bred here and there. i just got 2 pairs from marcus that bred 1 and 6 days after recieveing them and they are now morphing froglets what, 2 months later or less. that is purley from good stock. it`s just a matter of time to figure them out and get good stock in country. i`m going to remain a doubting thomas. 
paul kept a female lehmanni alive for 5 years in his basement w/ the temps never getting above 70f unfortunately we couldnt find a mate and i couldnt afford what he was asking so i had to sell it for him, broke my heart. if these animals go thru heat stress it may ruin them for good. all we need is good stock and a little time. 
as for microclimate put em in a 75gal tank put a light at one end to reach 80 and ac toward the other and temp gun where they hang out. if it gets cold at nite and they cant warm up but they bask to hit 75 or more during the day we have to be able to give them the area to thermoregulate. as for a certain insect they need, i dont believe that we couldnt get around that. as for them being bad parents i dont know if i believe that as much as we werent giving them the right laying sites or depositing sites. 
the only thing i`m worried about is that the stock just isnt out there.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i`m not trying to be a jerk or anything, yes big tanks and groups may be the way to breed them and i`m not saying the people keeping them arent knowledgeable. i`m just saying that the hobby advances in leaps and bounds, you just have to weed thru the false info(strictly from the lack of a large test group) and someone will figure them out. i forgot to mention thumbs were really scarce and phil(amongst others) kinda nailed that group too and there are now a lot of thumbs available because of their advances. i really have to have hope that they will be figured out and i`ll have a chance of gettin some someday or i`ll just whither up and die. they cant be that hard if paul can keep one alive in his basement for 5 years, i mean this thing was in a penpal(5 gallon) w/ dirt and a petri dish. that`s how i got to breeding all the frogs i have, because i didnt believe it couldnt be done. i havent had a chance to work w/ any hard to breed species yet as ive never been able to find any for sale. i`m sure my attitude will change when i get there.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> I also want to point out that a captive breeding program for histos and lehmanni is much easier said than done - both of these species have been worked with by advanced keepers with limited success.



True, but only to a point. The people we call advanced keepers today, weren't necessarily advanced when they had access to all the histos and lehmani. I think we ALL know alot more about these frogs now then we did 10 years ago. 

I, for one was working with Blue Jean pumilio several years ago. I knew to let the parents care for them, but the fact is, BJ pumilio make crappy parents in captivity. I later gave them to a friend to work with, who traded them for.... the hottest new auratus morph at the time 

Also, I used to lose their offspring within a few weeks. We've since come up with ways to better their chances of living. Brent's ideas on UV exposure, Robb's idea of weekly treatment with calcium gluconate, and many other's ideas of neonate care have made our chances of success even greater.

My point is, as mentioned first, is that we are gaining knowledge by leaps and bounds, and I think if we had another shot at these frogs, we would do much better. A captive breeding program probably would succeed. The hobby just wasn't ready to handle them at the time they were available to us.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I think if we made a greenhouse that was the correct temperature and humidity, and found some way to prevent ourselves from introducing chytrids when we walk in or when we try to introduce beneficial organisms to the soil (for food), I think they'd do every right.

The model for Atlanta botanical gardens is an idea, but probably too expensive (particularly for AC bills when the summer comes).

The best place to keep such a greenhouse would be around the pacific northwest.

I do also agree with Corey's statement about we don't provide a large enough tank...and enough frogs for competition. Like I mentioned earlier about birds, I've heard that successful pairing is best done when you allow them to choose their partners. I have read stories of budgies/cockatiels, etc. nearly killing a bad parenting mate. While frogs may not kill each other, they may not get it right.

Sounds silly, but is egg feeding more instinctual or learned? Could it be possible that that is one reason why some say that later generations of CB pumilio tend to not make good breeders?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Sounds silly, but is egg feeding more instinctual or learned? Could it be possible that that is one reason why some say that later generations of CB pumilio tend to not make good breeders?"endsnip 

Instinctual. For it to be a learned behavior they would have to stay with the adults through one or more rearing cycles. 

There is data out there that indicates that younger parental animals (At least in birds) do not dedicate the same resources to rearing of offspring as older more mature animals. There are some theories behind it but they currently think that this is due to the programmed in reproductive lifespan of the animal and can partially explain why it sometimes takes several clutches before they start getting it right (as well as different genes kicking in to get the behaviors going). 
As I understand it, many of the multigenerational egg feeders are all young animals that are offspring of young animals and may need more time to get thier act together (possibly several years worth). 

This of course isn't taking into consideration the potential effects of endocrine disrupters from the food or water supply. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And I also wonder if we let the later generations select their mates... what a lot of us fail to realize is that a lot of the animals in the hobby probibly wouldn't have made it out in their native habitat, and we force a lot of stuff on our frogs... 

I wonder if just natural mate selection would help with a lot of frogs, not just the extra competition helping out. We buy a male and a female and just expect them to breed, and given their only options, and instincts to propetuate the species, they breed... but given other choices would they chose those animals? Why wouldn't they? 

Anyone notice that the frogs we have the most problems with this happen to be eggfeeders, which have the most advanced parental care in the family? (not to mention some of the most advanced in amphibians as a whole). Eggfeeders have a lot more at stake reproductively than the more common "drop the tads in a puddle and leave'm" PDFs in the hobby, and are probibly much more selective about everything related to reproduction - first of which is the other parent. Second is the place to raise the kids - of which "just a brom" probibly won't do... they have something specific programmed into them, and when you don't know what that is, you need to offer the biggest variety of possibilities you can, and let them choose. 

Big tank, lots of choices, microclimates, options... let them choose mates, remove the extra, or just go the greenhouse route where the unchosen moves on to another place (and another chance to get it on). This is not the stuff that most of us, even the most advanced keepers of us, have the time, money, and/or ability to do. A display tank half the size of a small room with only a pair of frogs in it? Not exactly the way of the american hobby....


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i agree, large tanks should work better. i have my pumilio pairs in 24x24x12`s and histos and lehmanni are 3 times the size of pumilio so i imagine they would need 3x the size broms and tank to be as successful. as for mate choice, i dont know if they would know the difference if they never saw another mate. i have seen evidence of what you suggest. i always grow up 5 or more of a species and mix and match till i get the best production. i have also had sibling pairs of egg feeders that have produced very well for me when they had no other mate choice. 

microclimate is also a consideration. these animals have access to dappled sunlight which can produce basking spots up to 85 or more. if they get cold at nite they can always wander to a nearby sunspot in the morning to get up to the right temps. ac on one end and a light on the other can simulate these conditions. my vivs always have an 83f+ spot in the back near the light and a 75 spot near the water feature in front. although not necessary, i believe this is one problem that not too many people address. the ability for the animal to regulate it`s own temperature. 
there is also the idea of a varied food source and constant supply. i have at least 2-5 types of springtails and 2-4 types of isopods in each tank and other types of critters crawling in my breeders vivs.
just some thoughts.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Bigger is always better, but I don't think you can generalize with pumilio... they seem to show a vast difference in preferences depending on morph... for example bastis are found in higher concentrations (per. comm.) than BJs (seen in the wild myself) and evidently somewhat different habitats. In captivity basti pairs seem to do well in tanks much smaller than any BJ pair would do, even as small as 10 gallons! Meanwhile the only BJ pairs I know that are successful parents are in tanks 10x that size (in which you could have a happy colony of half a dozen to almost a dozen bastis!). Similar size frogs, but very different captive needs, even within the same species! Territories (especially size) are just vastly different in these two frogs.

Frogs do have some instincts on how to find the best mate. They will eventually, and most likely, mate with a member of the opposite sex when given no other choice (it may just take a couple years for them to warm up to each other). I've had personal experience, and have heard enough of this over the years, to know this is true in azureus... females in with males that they do not really care to breed with can lead to the poor health and eventual death of that male. When the male is replaced with another male, the pair often breeds with no problems, just something about some males just have the ladies going "no thanks"... and even when the female isn't going all out to beat him up, having a critter half your size that isn't particularly friendly towards you and eating all your food and stressing you.... it seems mate choice might be stronger in some frogs than others. In a limited climate zone, azureus might have to be pickier about the male because that male is going to be the father of their tadpoles and with limited resources and territories... frogs do care what their mates look like, sound like, and act like. We can force most of the frogs into dealing with our selections, but some we probibly just can't do that.

Varied food source and supply helps a lot with health of the frogs and young, might have a lot to do with the juvie eggfeeder survivalship (after you get over the hump of getting a happy pair). I don't think variety in springtail species is enough... they are very similar critters that eat similar things. Instead of 2-5 types of springtails, go for 2-5 (or more) types of bugs... the more different in structure, make up, and what they eat (which effects nutrients) the more variety you get, say crickets, FFs, termites, aphids, and RFB larvae.

The bonus of having 2-5 varieties of one type of feeder, like springtails, is being able to have a variety of that type feeder you can feed to various frogs with different diet needs (like size). For example, hydei FFs and european black springtails (the 8mm monsters) for the frogs that like bigger food, melanogaster glider and temperate/tropical springtails (2mm) for those who like smaller foods, and micro springtails (0.5mm) and wingless/golden delicious FFs for those that like it REALLY tiny, and/or froglets. Basically the same diet, but tailored to size.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Not all pumilio need very big tanks.
Bastimentos, Blue Jeans, BriBri and BlackJeans (Siquirres) are the bigger pumilio's and need some bigger tanks, but here in Europe I've heard of them breeding in 40x40x40cm or 50x40x40cm tanks for a pair. (about 16gallon I think that is.)

Other morphs like scheppert, darkland, cayo de aqua, loma partida, robalo, christobal, colon, nancy,... can be placed in a smaller tank as big as 30x30x30cm (even WC animals) (thats only 7gallon!!)

I think it all depends on 

How the parents are doing (you can have breeding animals who still aren't 100% because of bacterias or so.)

How good the pair gets a long. Some pumilio (proven male and proven female) just never seem to breed, while others start off immediatly and produce a lot of offspring. And for others it takes some time, after that they breed but not that good like a couple that gets a long very well.

ANd I also think that, when their is a lot of food, the female will have more attention to here tadpoles because she needs less time finding food for herself.

Just some thought from my side
:lol: 

Grtz,
Thomas


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

_How good the pair gets a long. Some pumilio (proven male and proven female) just never seem to breed, while others start off immediatly and produce a lot of offspring. And for others it takes some time, after that they breed but not that good like a couple that gets a long very well. 

ANd I also think that, when their is a lot of food, the female will have more attention to here tadpoles because she needs less time finding food for herself. _

That is a good point about the food.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

there is one problem. i always get 5-6 animals to get 1 pair out of them and then trade off the remaining. i have seen problems w/ pairs as you stated. eventually they breed out of nothing better to do. i thought it was waiting for the cover to grow in closer to their natural habitat but when a pair clicks they could have a paper towel substrate and coco hut and puddle and it wouldnt make any difference. the problem is finding or affording larger groups to let them choose their mate or mimic the pressure of competition to get them going. 
i have a terribilis trio i just cant seperate down to a pair right now. i have tried every possible combination and cant get them to breed w/out the 3 of them together. even individuals w/in a species are hard to generalize about. ive never had this problem before and ive done this same method 7-8 times now.
there are obstacles to overcome to get populations going in the hobby. there have been a lot of good points brought up here. only time will tell.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

the thread was stating that lehmanni need big territories to breed well. i or someone was saying that breeding stock is more of a concern than tank size, or something like that. just trying to debate needs for histos and lehmanni. kinda argueing over priorities more than anything.
i had a friend who kept a lehmanni alive in his basement in a penpal the size of a 5 gal for years. not saying it was right but it`s happened. we need to find out what people have done to learn. even if it doesnt sound right. this way if you get darklands and they arent breeding in a 20gal tank you can chek tank size off the problem lists now that you know they and sheppards and cayos etc. have been bred in as small as a 7 gal. and as large as the uberviv.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I think that most people that get into this hobby start in a similar way, a tank or 2 and a species or 2. And then the enthusiasm takes over, more tanks and more species. Most people have a limited amount of room so more frogs means smaller tanks. I used to have a basement full of 30 - 40 tanks, the smallest being 20 gallons but after moving to Florida and having no room I tried to keep a diverse collection in 1/10th of the space. It did not work out for me but I am sure others make do.
I don't think people go for small tanks to get away with as little as they can, I think they do it so they can have has many animals in their collection as they can fit.....but that's a different arguement oops I mean conversation all together.
Mark


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i understand where blake is coming from. there were a lot of posts recently in the newbie section on can i put frogs in a 5 gallon, how many can i fit in this tank etc. 
now back to the thread. both pairs i got from you blake are in 25gal tanks and thats the standard for my pumilio pairs. they will breed in tanks smaller but it`s too damn cramped to work in. 
mark pulawski, good to see you here. it`s been a while.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Guys,
I have removed your string of posts from an otherwise great thread. I'd love to see what both of you have to say in relation to the original thread on successfully keeping and breeding lehmanni as many very interesting points have been brought up, but this is not the place to fight with each other. Keep it clean and happy frogging. 

Jordan


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Aaron, have you had the opportunity to work with histrionicus or BJ pums?

EDIT: Is there a zoo here in the US that houses BJ pumilio, histrionicus, or lehmanni and successfully breeds them? Anybody seen Black Jungle's lehmanni and histrionicus setup? Have they ever had success?

I've never been to Black Jungle's store.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i bred the blue jeans that came in around 97-99. i think these may have been the nicaraguans. i had to sell them because of bills back then. the broms i had wouldnt stay alive in the vivs and i always lost the tads they were caring for. unfortunately, i always got rid of the rare stuff when times were tuff because i had a guaranteed sale. never was able to get them back. i had 1 histrionicus and 1 lehmanni back then but was unable to find mates and had to sell them, again because of bills and the hi price they demanded. couldnt get the gas shut off though in those buffalo winters.
i`m still lookin for them though. maybe someday.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

> Is there a zoo here in the US that houses BJ pumilio, histrionicus, or lehmanni and successfully breeds them?


I don't know about any currently... I know back in the 90s NAIB bred lehmanni (I remember the original pair and at least 9 adult offspring that were there when I got there) as well as ecuadorian histos (which I believe are now sylvaticus) and in the early 2000s they had columbian bulls eyes to work with... unfortunately their main frog guys that had the talent left (Ron G. and Ben Eiben to ABG, and Zack Zamora now runs Variance). The lehmanni were bred one pair in a hidden life exhibit kept behind scenes, rather bare just a bunch of broms and leaf litter, the histos basically the same way.

There are a couple breeders who have had luck with histos and/or lehmanni... as well as grannies and BJs, they are all in basically the same boat. And by "luck" I mean from eggs to successful froglets, with grannies the hard part seems to be getting the eggs, you have to do a large tank with a set up that mimics their microhabitat (humid pockets around streams in otherwise dry seasonal forest) etc etc. Sadly these breeders tend to be rather shy and elusive...


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> with grannies the hard part seems to be getting the eggs, you have to do a large tank with a set up that mimics their microhabitat (humid pockets around streams in otherwise dry seasonal forest) etc etc. Sadly these breeders tend to be rather shy and elusive...


Corey-

The hard part with grannies for me was not getting eggs but rather getting the male to fertilize them. My female laid eggs again and again but none of them ever developed. It is my understanding, from talking to successful breeders, that extremely harsh cycling (i.e. a cool, dry, foodless period) is the key in getting grannies to produce. I unsuccessfully attempted this for several years and finally gave up on them. When I am not successful with something, I prefer to send them to others who might have better luck with them, rather than hang onto them. I have also heard that keeping them in groups can help stimulate reproduction.

-Blake


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Or give the female a chance to choose a male that gets the job done! Harsh cycling makes sense given their habitat in the wild, which is a very harsh wet/dry season living around the only sources of moisture that would allow them to survive all year...


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Cycling does seem to be the answer--dry for a few weeks/month, followed by heavy misting and partial flooding of the enclosure. Some find the biggest difficulty to be not with getting good eggs, but with the limited number of tads that will be reared by the adults (large clutch, but only a few can be cared for once they hatch).

I've heard talk and theory of using more "common" pumilio as surrogates to boost numbers. If successful, it was thought that this could more than triple the number of froglets a group could produce.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Rob Melancon has done that I think successfully, getting Bastis to raise BJ. However, there really isn't a way to get surrogates for histos and lehmanni.

Homer, about what you said about the clutches, it may be possible like many species of animals that they produce more than they can rear, and generally neglect the rest. Pandas are a good example. Almost always there are twins born, but only one is cared for.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Rob Melancon has done that I think successfully, getting Bastis to raise BJ. However, there really isn't a way to get surrogates for histos and lehmanni.
> 
> Homer, about what you said about the clutches, it may be possible like many species of animals that they produce more than they can rear, and generally neglect the rest. Pandas are a good example. Almost always there are twins born, but only one is cared for.


Yes, as far as I know, the surrogate rearing of granuliferus by bastis is still in the testing stages, but it's not the Robbster that's doing that test. Robb's write-up on the blue jeans was what inspired the idea.

I don't know whether it would work for histos and lehmanni, and don't know if it will work for granuliferus, but I guess someone has to try it before we'll know.


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

bwood1979 said:


> When I am not successful with something, I prefer to send them to others who might have better luck with them, rather than hang onto them.
> 
> -Blake


Kudos Blake, that is a great attitude to take!


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## Chrisc147 (Jun 11, 2015)

Does anyone currently have any lehmanii? I know Tesoros will be importing some hopefully soon, but is there anyone on DB who still have some?


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