# Large Vivarium Construction



## Energy

Hi everyone I have a 15 foot long by 5 foot wide by 33 inch tall acrylic aquarium. I was heavily into saltwater for many years and the tank was set up as a reef. In fact it has been featured in Books and Magazines and was featured on Reef Central as Reef Tank of the month January 2008.

I am switching directions and going back to my roots. I will be converting the tank into a vivarium with a large black water lagoon and rivers edge that will hold a freshwater stingray. The land section will be for Poison Dart Frogs which I have had for quite a few years before they became popular, haha.

My question- considering the amount of space I have to fill- what is the best substrate to consider for both water and land. Details would be appreciated and if you make a recomendation if you could also list a source for the material that would be great!

What are the benefits to a false bottom and why should I consider one?

Thanks 

Stan


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## ChrisK

A false bottom allows the water to drain down and not soak the substrate, same as LECA or any of those types of ideas. What substrate you use depends on your goals - use the Search feature here and all your questions will get many types of answers and decide from there.


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## Energy

I have used the search forum and gotten many different opinions. I am trying to get the basic pro's and con's of the different types figured out and then apply that to my system.


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## melas

First off - that reef was absolutely STUNNING! Amazing job! I'm going to post the link here just so others can get an idea of what you are talking about . . . massive!

Tank of the Month - January 2008 - Reefkeeping.com

So are you just burned out with saltwater? I have to say with results like that I think it'd be tough to give it up!


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## Energy

There are many reasons I quite with saltwater. At the moment I don't miss it - but I may. I am excited to start down this new venture.


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## Energy

How does this sound: 

For the bottom layer I was going to use inch and half sized river rock, 

then the next layer would be down to 3/4 inch river rock 

and then over that place pea rock, 

the top layer would be coconut fiber about 1.5 inches deep

and then plant

Would it be wise to use some hydroton in place or mixed in with the pea rock?

Do I need anything else?


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## slaytonp

That's an awesome task, but you are obviously up to it. My only suggestion is that you might want to look into the hydroponic fiberglass slabs as your base for supporting the land area, which the water area will circulate under, and the land portion will drain into. This would need to be lined with something like weed cloth all around. You will need the usual canister filters for water circulation, and any waterfall or drip wall features you may design. Otherwise, you may need to separate land and water areas with glass walls and have two separate systems for each going. I'm very curious about how you will eventually do this, because there is such potential here for a spectacular habitat. 

I've done a couple of smaller aquarium/land habitats that have worked well, but nothing of this size. My aquarium residents are mostly tetras of various sorts, which have oddly thrived for years in my frog tanks, when I was never able to keep tropical fish alive for more than a few months before this. 

I'm mostly posting a reply because I really want to follow up on what others have to say and what you end up doing with it. What dart frogs are going to eventually enjoy this space?


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## hpglow

That is about what I did but I placed a layer of fiber glass screen between the river rock and pea gravel to isolate any stray substrate from getting into the rock and water.


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## HunterB

1. That tank is amazing

2. Your plan is good but I wouldn't do straight coco fiber for bedding, mixing in orchid bark, sand, soil, and coco fiber or other such mixes are better. I always do mixes and it seems to be better for the plants


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## Energy

Where is a good source for coco fiber in bulk?
Also what is the benefit to orchid bark and where would I get it?


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## HunterB

The first question, I can't really answer
The second,
Orchid bark is an airy substrate and seems to be good for the roots


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## yumpster

I don't know about bulk amounts of coco fiber, but petco.com currently has a 6 pack of compressed brick coco fiber for 43% off retail price. I think it's at under $13. That's an amazing deal. With a tank of your size you will need quite a lot though as I'm sure you have already realized.


I think you will become hooked on this hobby incredibly quick. I know of a number of people that have moved from reef tanks to dart frogs, and as far as I know none of them regret it at all. Good luck!


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## Dragas

Sent you a pm.

I am sure someone could correct me if I am wrong, but you could probably use the bulk peat moss found at the hardware stores in cubic foot bags ? Mixed with the other ingredients listed above. (Which keeps it from compacting (air), and helps it drain.)

I go for Coconut husk chips over standard orchid bark mixes (which is mostly fir bark.) The CHC are a renewable source and are supposed to last longer than fir bark.


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## yumpster

I believe you are correct as long as you make certain there is no fertilizer in it.


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## Jellyman

Please document the build with alot of pictures. This will certainly be an impressive enclosure when completed!!


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## Dragas

yumpster said:


> I believe you are correct as long as you make certain there is no fertilizer in it.



This is what I have used :

Listed as 100% canadian Sphagnum

http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/Gardening/Products/GrowingMediaTM/Premier/fPremier.htm

Look for the product: Peat Moss


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## slaytonp

You can google coconut fiber and come up with literally hundreds of outlets for bulk fiber, such as Plant'It Earth that has 50 liter bags for $22.00. You'll want to shop around a bit and compare prices, because they vary a LOT. The same is true of orchid bark, which is more coarse, disintegrates slowly, so provides aeration and drainage over a long period. You might even consider mixing in some long light brown sphagnum moss (NOT the dark brown peat moss, also available in bulk) as this does a magnificent job of preventing root and stem rot in plants due to some sort of "antibacterial, anti fungal" properties. It will also sometimes "come alive" and grow. There are probably viable spores among the fibers, and it's rather pretty when it does this. Both Canadian and New Zealand sphagnum may be available, although a few years ago the New Zealand type became hard to get, apparently due to depletion of the sources. 

I would recommend that you avoid any mixtures that contain either Perlite or Vermiculite, as both of these substances will stick to frogs, float in water and tend to clog things up more than they help in a vivarium situation. 

Other alternatives for separating the soil from the drainage layer, whatever you use for this, are polyester batting (from the quilting section of most any fabric store), and weed cloth that comes in big rolls from most any nursery. I've worked with both and somewhat prefer the batting.


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## RarePlantBroker

If you decide to use straight sphagnum peat as a substrate, I would like to make a couple of suggestions:
check to see if the peat is pH adjusted. Most sold in hardware stores is nowadays, but you want to make certain that the mix isn't too acidic. (many South/Central American plants come from calcareous soils and are alkaline with an acidic leaf-litter layer above)

Mix some horticultural charcoal into the peat before adding the substrate. This will help keep the soil from "souring" should it become saturated with water, and plant roots really benefit from the chemical/mineral composition of the charcoal.


When making a "potting mix" for my Anthuriums, Philodendrons, and other semi-epiphytic plants, I use the following mix: 2 parts Peat, 1 part Bark (I found ZooMed Reptibark works quite well), 1 part horticultural charcoal, and 1/4 part pearlite. I would suggest a similar recipe, less the pearlite.


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## Energy

Thank you everyone- OK I have revised this somewhat and since to me this is one of the most critical elements of the build I need to get it right the first time. Remember on a tank my size I can't change things easily so I definately appreciate this input. 

So for my base I will use 2" volcanic rock (light and airy -drains well)

next layer will be 1" volcanic rock( same reasoning)

Then weed matting or other barrier

Then sand mixed with coconut fiber and orchid bark.


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## devin mac

The only thing i would worry about with sand is it compacting over time and/or sinking out of "suspension" in the mix over time. 

if you're worried about drainage and air in the actual planting layer of substrate, The orchid bark should do you just fine. Maybe mix in some tree fern fiber, and something like schultz aquatic plant soil, which i have used in some of my tanks for increased soil drainage. Essentially you're putting together a similar mix to what a bonsai grower would use. I'd even hold off on much of the coco bedding, as you will have the tank very well hydrated on a regular basis and don't necessarily need that much moisture retention in the soil. Drainage and longevity will be key for a long term large tank like yours.

For the bottom layer, it might be worth investigating some ways of creating a false bottom. This would actually give you an advantage by allowing a larger water volume, if the land and water area will be sharing a common filtration system. 

My $0.02 either way, and i'm looking forward to seeing the build out.


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## Jellyman

You can make a flase bottom in the same mannor as you would a plenum for a saltwater sandbed.


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## fraser2009

wow man so many ideas come to mind with this  
what kinda say you gona get ? i would be extra carful with what you get for the frogs as rays can be very touchy with alot of chemicals so id be really worried about leaching.
also how you planning to keep the frogs on land. if one happens to venture onto water that ray will be on it in no time which could be very bad for both partys. 
that salt tank was amazing have you thought of converting those stacks to tree trunks that would be stunning create a big chunk of the forrest floor.
good luck with this and take as many pics as you can then take 10 more


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## rmelancon

To answer a few questions, the purpose for a false bottom is to provide a drainage layer so that the upper layer, be it straight sphagnum, soil, etc. does not stay constantly soaked. Things that are constantly soaked tend to rot, breed bacteria, etc. A false bottom or layer of leca (or volcanic rock as you have suggested) all serve the same purpose of keeping your top layer from sitting is water. It is my opinion that many hobbyists keep their tanks way too wet and with the volume of this tank you will probably want some ventilation and air movement to keep your plants and frogs healthy. The other thing you will need to consider with a tank of this size is that your subtrate will break down over time regardless of what you choose and you will need to add fresh layers over time. The broken down material will collect at the bottom of the tank and outside of a complete breakdown of the tank they will just stay there. Due to the size you are not going to want to break the entire thing down very often if at all. If you go with straight sphagnum, it will last a couple of years and what I do is remove the live moss that grows on top of it, any plants etc., lay down a fresh layer and put the moss and plants back on top of it. The mix you were referencing will last longer. You may also want to consider leaf litter on top of the substrate you mentioned. I don't know if that tank has drains on the bottom or not, but I would not want water stagnating in something that large. I'm assuming you are going to have some type of moving water, just make sure you don't have areas where large volumes of water can stagnate. You'll also need to figure out an escape proof top, which will be interesting. 
Hope this helps and looking forward to see what you come up with.

Robb


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## Energy

Thank you for the thorough explanation and comparison of the advantages toward each substance.

The water section will have a small water fall and an outside sump to filter and monitor the water quality in the lake or lagoon area. The depth of the water section will be approx 8-10" and be 5' x 5'. Not very deep but a large surface area appropriate for a stingray. 

No seperation will be needed between the stingray and the frogs. Stingrays can be trained to eat specific foods and will ignore other items outside of what they have been taught- very similar in a way a falconer trains a hunting bird (hawk etc) to go grab a rabbit and bring it back to the trainer instead of eating it right there where they caught it. With a regular schedule and specific foods offered they learn quickly where and when to go to get fed.

The bottom of the terrarium will be approximately 1-2" above the water level (At it's lowest point) of the lake and slope up toward the back of the tank in a "hill". 

I will either set up a misting system or realistically a humidifer on a timer to keep the tanks land section self watered.

I do not plan on doing a tank tear down to replace the soil that is why I am choosing carefully. Furthermore if it becomes an absolute neccesity to perform this in the future I am hoping the weed barrier will be a great way to grab and lift out large sections at a time. 

The volcanic rock will fill in the void to keep the soil sections elevated. I have the coir or coco fiber and fir bark or orchid bark ready and will mix this with a free draining preferably washed sand and will use that sand for the bottom of the water section as well.

A large section of the tank will simply be riccia for ground cover with a well planted back wall and other interesting features. I have had a 150 gallon palarium once before and it got taken over by large leafed plants quickly. To the point where nothing was visible. I will avoid using these in the system (NO POTHOS) and prefer small leaved slower growing plants for the back drop.

Ventalation: This is the next challenge. I do not want to constantly wipe off 15' of acrylic to see what is going on inside. I am thinking some fans aimed at the front glass set up on a timer to go on in the morning and after any misting occurs.

Approximately half or more of the top of this tank is covered by braces. In fact I only have 4 openings in the top for access. So basically I need to create 4 screened access covers to keep everything in. That should be doable.


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## Jellyman

Energy said:


> Approximately half or more of the top of this tank is covered by braces. In fact I only have 4 openings in the top for access. So basically I need to create 4 screened access covers to keep everything in. That should be doable.



My glass tank has a eurobrace and I went to the local hardware store and had them make me 3 screen sections that lay on the eurobrace to prevent any escapees. I then took 1/8" plexi(the thin stuff at Lowe's or HD) and laid it on top of the screens. Then over the course of a few weeks I drilled holes in the plexi until I reached a good balance of humidity within the tank in combination with fans to reduce/eliminate condensation on the front of the enclosure. My fans run most of the day and are off during the night.


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## Energy

I am thinking about setting up a bank of fans aimed at the front glass similar to a defroster in a car. Something easy but effective.

Here's a complicated idea: I have been thinking about replicating a thunder and lightning storm inside the tank but without the actual electrical bolts. 

What I would like to do is automate a storm by having the lights dim, a thunder/rain soundtrack start and somehow get bright light flashes to randomly occur as the thunder soundtrack plays. During this I might have a misting system start a rainstorm inside the tank. This would be down the road quite a ways but I always like to plan and weigh options. Does anyone have any advice or links to something similar?


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## jubjub47

It seems like a strobe light would give the type of flash you want, but you would have to figure out how to slow it down and make it a bit more random.


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## Energy

Yeah that's a good idea, have a strobe light turn on and off with a timer that can go down to seconds instead of minutes. This would do lighting bursts.


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## Jason

One thing to keep in mind is that if you use cocofiber you will more than likely stain the water to the point that viewing your ray may be difficult. You may want to divide the water/land feature and keep it completely separate that way you can adjust the water parameters much easier. 

If you don't feel like doing that I would go with a false bottom (egg crate) and forget the lava rock. My reasoning for this is to allow for more water in the tank so parameters of the water for the ray can't change as rapidly and it would keep it more stable. This would also allow for the staining from the cocofiber to the water to be minimal. It would also allow you to move the water under the false bottom and detritus debris will not build up between the rocks.

As far as substrate I would use a variety of stuff since you have so much room. Atlanta Botanical Gardens mix is always awesome.

*ABG mix*
2 parts fine fir bark 
2 parts fine tree fern fiber 
2 parts milled sphagnum moss 
1 part fine charcoal 
1 part peat moss 

You should also try maybe an area of clay based substrate.

This thread will teach you a lot about it!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html

Pro's Choice Products


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## earthfrog

I really think the hydroton is superior to the lava rock even though it is more expensive since it absorbs water and leaves optimal air gaps due to its spherical shape. It's not as visually pleasing, though, so you could do a facade of lava rock in the front of the tank and fill in w/hydroton behind that.


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## midget

i go with clay based you can get enough here Bailey Ceramic Supply - Clay - Dry Clays and Chemicals to make it for cheap im using this formual for my 75g 
kaolinite (EPK) 1100 56%
Bentonite (absorbent clay kitty litter) 550 28%
Fe Oxide red 70 4%
Fe Oxide Yellow 70 4%
Al oxide 60 3%
sugar 15 1%
cornstarch 15 1%
gelatin 10 1%
soy protein 10 1%
CaCO3 20 1%
it cost 286$ that is asumng you land area is 7x5 and 3" deep which seems resable room for a ray well more then needed. good luck love to see it finshed


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## midget

oh my bad you sad water be 5x5 it shouldnt cost any more then around 300 then to make pretty cheap imo, and a lot cheaper then reef tank  lol


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## Energy

Well, thanks Midget but kitty litter and some of those other materials sound like they could leach materials in to the water and affect the stingray. I have to be very careful that whatever I use won't affect the water chemistry as stingrays are very sensitive. Thank you very much for the opinion.


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## fraser2009

that storm idea sounds good at the local aquarium in edinburgh they have a jungle set up for large amazonian fish and they had a simulated rain storm which was nice.at work the other day i was day dreaming about having a metal halid lamp on a track above the tank do i could have sun rise and set cycles and using coloured plastic so when the sun was going up it change from red to white at midday then red up at sun set.would not be easy but would be very nice.

you did not mention what kind of ray it was or i missed it. are you getting a moto ? 
last thing are you planning to give the ray the run of the hole tank ?
this project should be amazing good luck with it


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## Jason

Energy said:


> Well, thanks Midget but kitty litter and some of those other materials sound like they could leach materials in to the water and affect the stingray. I have to be very careful that whatever I use won't affect the water chemistry as stingrays are very sensitive. Thank you very much for the opinion.


I understand your concern. What Midget posted is basically what the soils in the Amazon are made of, so if they leach into the ray's water. They theoretically should be just fine, but I hear ya and I probably wouldn't either. The ingredient were made up from Matt who is a soil scientist and has studied soils in the amazon.

Try some of this stuff in an area. I believe it is fired, so it shouldn't leach into the ray water. 

Pro's Choice Products

Stick with the ABG mix for the majority of the area. Well draining and should help to lower the pH in the ray water.


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## Energy

Jason- what's the deal with your cramphibian website link? I see you have a Costa Rica Connection. I and another member- Tico Mike own over 100 acres of Rainforest near Corcovado national Park. We are also building a house In Uvita.

My Vivarium is actually based on the Costa Rican Biotope (except for the stingray). One of the rivers that cuts through our property is littered with the blue jeans frog. I was hiking up a small stream doing a water survey to install an irrigation/drinking water system into our property when I saw two of them within 10 feet of each other!


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## midget

yea what jason said. but i also agree with you hate to lose a ray due to a freak accendent. what jason posted would put ya to ease since its just clay. also what ray is. personly love montros. also i be more carefull with a ray in shallower tank like that could get stung easier. good luck


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## Energy

My dream stingray would be a Henlie or Leopoldi. They are basically black with white or yellowish dots. Problem is they are way to expensive! 
Well today three of us spent scrubbing corraline algae off the acrylic. Now I need to refinish the tank before I can begin putting everything back in.


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## midget

coming from someone who had a 1700 gallon reef tank never would of thought to hear to expensive. lol must have been a fun day


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## Energy

I have a price qoute on one at $1200- see way to expensive!


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## midget

fine you've got me there lol how much do montros go for now?


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## fleshfrombone

After seeing your tank and all the work/money you put into it I wanted to cry. Then I started reading about the vivarium you wanted to set up and I perked back up. Besides the ray do you have any ideas on what kind of frog you want in there? You mentioned seeing blue jeans pumilio on your property in Costa Rica. Whatever you choose please keep detailed notes along with tons of pics. I think I speak for everyone when I say this is an incredible endeavor and all of us are very excited to see it come to fruition. I would recommend you get in touch with local froggers. If you are located in the PNW I can think of at least a dozen people who would be more than happy, myself included, to lend a hand to your project. Good luck and please keep us posted.


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## Energy

Thanks for the offer fresh from bones- I'm in Minnesota so I am not sure where pnw is?

Anyway you all are going to think I'm Crazy but  I need your opinions once again on a totally different substrate idea. 

As a reefer I learned that any area with low to little flow will collect detritus. So when I see all these false bottoms(we called them plenums) I see detritus traps.

Whether it's an eggcrate bottom, lava rock or clay balls it's all the same. I have used them in the past for parts of my reef and always disliked them just because there is no REALLY GOOD way to keep them clean. Now if I wasn't going to have an extremely sensitive animal in the water column- I wouldn't care- but as such I need to maintain optimal water quality.

That is why I am having a large outside the tank sump but I still need to keep all that dead space under the soil crystal clean.

Here's the crazy idea. Following the principle that we reefers call a bare bottom tank theory. Under the land sections to keep detritus from accumulating instead of an eggcrate bottom I am debating on using solid sheets of extruded polystyrene(solid pink styrofoam) to raise the bottom up and keep water and detritus out. If the water can't enter and stagnate it can't foul the rest of the water column. Now I will just place enough polystyrene (PS -FROM NOW ON) to raise the bottom up about 1/2 the height of the water column. 

On top of the PS I will place 2" river rock- for weight then 1" river rock then fabric then the coco fiber/washed sand/orchid bark mix. 

Basically I am eliminating the dead space so detritus can't collect beneath the soil but also still allowing some water zone beneath the soil for plant roots.

This is an idea I would appreciate feedback on.


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## hpglow

I put a bulkhead in the bottom of my viv with a ball valve on it. Every month I change 100% of the water. This may not be possible for you with a fresh water sting ray but you could do healthy water changes on a regular basis with a bulkhead in the bottom to help prevent stagnation. You may also consider running your water through a canister filter of some kind.


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## Energy

The entire sump will act as a canister filter. I will have mechanical screens for detritus as well as the ability to easily perform water changes from this area.

I have just performed some experiments and Polystyrene is incredibly bouyant. To the point where 4 inches of PS in a 4 x 4 area reguires about 100 lbs to keep submerged.

I need another material that is inert and not boyount to place on the bottom of the tank to raise the bottom up to displace water.


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## midget

keep the egg crate. i'm asuming your tank was drilled and has overflows. since you won't be able to use them then why don't you install a bulkhead under the flase and use that as the drain probly need a couple 2" drains, and if you can't do that you could put a pump under it and have a water fall or two if you plan on using the return pump as a water fall too, this would greatly increase O2 in the water. good luck. also the hole point of false bottom is for proper drainage the faom would not allow this. good luck


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## Jason

Energy said:


> Thanks for the offer fresh from bones- I'm in Minnesota so I am not sure where pnw is?


 Another Minnesotan! We will talk more as I am about to head out the door, but I got a lot of local places for you to get supplies.


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## melas

Energy said:


> The entire sump will act as a canister filter. I will have mechanical screens for detritus as well as the ability to easily perform water changes from this area.


If you have a large sump why not just isolate the pond from the false bottom? Have a seperate drain(s) for both the land and pond areas. You can just reuse the effluent from the land area to water the plants etc. By doing this you will greatly reduce the leaching of contaminates into the ray's habitat. This would also give you greater control and there would be no worries with "dead spots" etc. While it will reduce the volume of water, it will greatly increase overall water quality. 

Some thoughts.


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## Energy

I am against drilling the bottom of a tank. If it ever reverts back to an aquarium and there is a leak- Murphy's rule says it will be at the bulkhead in the bottom.  So I have kept all my bulkheads toward the top and don't need to drain the entire thing to fix a small leak. 

To raise the bottom of the land area and disperse water I may just take some plastic "under the bed" storage bins with lids and fill them with rock so they won't float and seal them. 

I do plan on having a water feature of some sort. At this point I haven't decided if it will a stream or river at the front of the acrylic 8 " deep for the entire 15 feet wrapping around or just a waterfall. If I do a stream I was playing with the idea of making part of it a cave at the glass. So frogs could hop to the acrylic and fish could swim underneath and both would be viewable. I may be getting a little to industrious for my own good with that idea. 

I am not fond of seeing 8-10 inches of soil stacked on the acrylic to compensate for the depth of the water. It's wasted viewing space so I may lean toward wrapping the river around the entire front of the tank and have it dump into the lake at the end.


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## melas

Energy said:


> I am against drilling the bottom of a tank. If it ever reverts back to an aquarium and there is a leak- Murphy's rule says it will be at the bulkhead in the bottom.  So I have kept all my bulkheads toward the top and don't need to drain the entire thing to fix a small leak.


Oh - as a former reefer I totally understand what you are saying - I guess I just assumed your drains were already in the bottom with having a shallow pool for the ray. Perhaps I missed it above - how are you getting the water from the shallow pool into the sump? 

Here's a potential option for doing what I suggested above without drilling. 

Take a 5 gallon bucket and cut off the bottom so that the bucket will extend from the bare bottom of the tank through the false bottom to a few inches above the eventual substrate height. Drill a bunch of holes or cut "legs" out of the bucket. Drop a pump in the bucket so that you can pump the water out when the false bottom gets full. You could build a faux rock to cover the bucket and keep critters from falling in. Some thoughts.

PS - having the stream in the front of the tank sounds wicked! Do it!


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## midget

taking ideas from my build lol jk i'm doing the same thing steam runs along the front of the glass to veiw the fish








you can see theres an opening in the left coner that the pump(will cover). the water fall is on the top right hard to see. and there two river beside the pond and river in the front there still white as you can see


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## midget

still can't fiqure out how to up load oh well here
fjshdghfdsgklj.jpg picture by hugwhore - Photobucket


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## Energy

Midget- yeah that's the same idea but mine will be about 15 feet long. 
I like the way you think Midget. how's that system coming along?

Melas- good idea with the bucket and lid to clean out the water. 

My tank will be backwards and is kind of hard to understand. Bascially the sump will be behind and above the tank and gravity feed into the aquarium. A small maxijet pump will be inside the tank(aquarium) and pump water out to the elevated sump that will gravity feed back in after going through the filtration process. I will also place a float valve inside the aquarium hooked up to a ro/di unit to constantly replace evaporated water with absolutely filtered/ treated new water. Occasionally I will vacuum out the lake to get any accumulated detritus out but the system for the most part will be self regulated and have fresh 0 parts per million water fed into it automatically daily. 

The danger to this is that the water coming in will be to clean for fish and I will occasionally have to replace elements to keep it balanced.

So the tank is lower than the sump which is unusual. Try to view it like this - since the tank is lower it becomes the sump- but I will perform all my filtration outside the aquarium.


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## midget

thanks  so what if your is 15' long mine will only cost 1/15 of that  its going better then i though the only problem i see is my pump will be pushing water at around 400gph(forgot the gatevaule) on a waterfall  a bit much i think but the way i have the water set up it should be fine it fills a resvor which then over flow to create the waterfall this should be helpfull. also if you have the falso bottom filled up to 10" too i think a maxi jet be too small even if the total water you'll be filtering is 5x5(155g) it still i shoot for 500-1000 even if its to much a gate vaule should solve that. this is asuming you want more bio filtration since there messy. if you want more mech is shoot for 1000-1500.(this is after head loss) if your chaning more then like 5% a day then you could run into the problem with RO be to clean. are you runing only RO or RO/DI? also forgot you may go back lol bottom bulk head is the worst ime. two tanks leak lol. good luck


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## fleshfrombone

The PNW is the Pacific Northwest ie Washington, too bad, there's a legion of froggers here. I'm not sure but I think Mike Shrom is in your area. Don't know too many Midwest froggers but there is a Midwest frog fest so there's got to be a few at least. I notice you mention water quality. Is there no way to use what you were running with your reef to help with that? It would be a shame for all that expensive equipment to sit around with nothing to do. I'm sure your sump could be loaded with leca and/or those bioball thingy's that koi pond enthusiasts use to keep their fish happy. Get that beneficial bacteria cooking and say goodbye to your nitrite/nitrate levels. I'm sure I'm not saying anything you already knew about. Are you going to have a backwall? I notice in your reef you had a sweet "island" of coral going on. I think a few tree trunks would look incredible in a setup like yours. Or even a fallen tree log set up. Oh man, now I wish I had a tank that size


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## midget

he sump be useless pretty much, it won't have a section for bio material. best bio material be plastic scrubbes ime. plan on using in my set up. pretty much all saltwater suff is useless in fresh water  tree trunks wood look nice.


----------



## longliveledzeppelin

that tank makes my 420g reef tank look like a 10g


----------



## midget

man your luck 420 makes my old 10g reef a 10g reef lol. yea i like to know also are yu gonne have a backround GS seems out of the question as you need 50 cans or more lol(it can be rovemed though if you look at some new rock backgrounds on reef central) tree fern pannels seem like the best idea


----------



## melas

fleshfrombone said:


> I'm not sure but I think Mike Shrom is in your area.


He's from the PA/MD area. I'm not sure which. I actually talked with him on Saturday at the Hamburg show. Great guy - not local for you though.


----------



## dylanserbin

"The substrate I'm using is what I'll refer to as 'Ross' Mix', since he was the first one I read about using it. The recipe is as follows:

4 parts black earth - (high in nutrients and no fertilizers)

1.5 - 2 parts sterilized landscaping sand - (helps drain excess moisture from the soil)

2 parts chopped up spaghnum - (keeps wet soil from compacting - I used half Long-Fibre spagh and half Zilla Forest Moss)

1 part coco fibre - (holds some moisture and lightens up the colour a bit)

1 part orchid bark - (for a little texture and added drainage)"

This is what i use also and it works great. A good place to get black earth is superstore(if your canadian) This is also a good way to go because it is so cheap compared to that pre-made stuff.

Dylan.

Ps. i am kinda moving in the opposite direction as you, i am getting into reefs right now. Mind you i love my frogs, and I can get lost in my tanks every day.. i just love the science behind SW aquariums. Yours is beautiful


----------



## fleshfrombone

melas said:


> He's from the PA/MD area. I'm not sure which. I actually talked with him on Saturday at the Hamburg show. Great guy - not local for you though.


That's ok, I'll see your Mike Shrom with a Todd Kelly and Tor Linbo. No I really wish we all lived in the same area some times. Imagine what we could do to further the hobby if all our knowledge was in one place locally.


----------



## Energy

T]he whole reason behind the large tank was so I could build a coral bommie and offer large open swimming spaces and many hiding places for the reef inhabitants. As such My lake area will feature a prominent swamp tree/similar to the coral island before. 

I am currently working on that and so far I am only "ok" with how it looks. I will also be building a large banyon tree for the center section and a third tree for the opposite end. 

I was thinking about building a prominent rock centerpiece out of styrofoam/grout but then realized I could just go the quarry and get the real thing. I picked up about 800 lbs of select "superior trap rock". The central rock weighed about 250 lbs alone. I have it sitting on 6 inches of styrofoam to distribute the weight. That was tough to get- it took three of us.

The tank will have a somewhat minimilist approach. The main features will be the lake with a wrap around river. A large sloping hill in the center reaching almost to the top of the tank. A banyon tree replicate adjacent to the hill. An old swamp/marsh tree growing out of the lake, a possible waterfall and another swamp tree on the far end of the lake in the river.

Because a large portion of the tank will have a sloping hill (remember the tank is 5' from front to back) much of the backdrop will be covered. The rest of the exposed area will probably be coco fiber/silicon/ black great stuff with potential planting areas. The back wall will be the only thing planted with larger leaved/creeping species just to cover it up and offer a natural back drop.


----------



## Philsuma

fleshfrombone said:


> That's ok, I'll see your Mike Shrom with a Todd Kelly and Tor Linbo. No I really wish we all lived in the same area some times. Imagine what we could do to further the hobby if all our knowledge was in one place locally.


LOL...now this is funny...

I'll see your Kelly and Linbo and raise you a Sean Stewart and a Scott Menigoz (Keepin' it in the Balt. area).


----------



## midget

i make the great stuff background simlar how to make a rockwall beacse it can be easily removed. cut egg crate to size foam trim then and silcone. i liek the idea of a slope need a ton up subtrate(literally) lol must ahve been fun to hual 800lbs. keep trying to get in your image ether wise your gonna hate and tear it down . good luck


----------



## fleshfrombone

Philsuma said:


> LOL...now this is funny...
> 
> I'll see your Kelly and Linbo and raise you a Sean Stewart and a Scott Menigoz (Keepin' it in the Balt. area).


Phew that's a good pair (not too sure if you raised me or not ), I'll come back with a Darren Meyer and Erin/Dave from ED's Flymeat.

Hmmm, you guys do have the Baltimore Aquarium..... D'oh!


----------



## fleshfrombone

Energy said:


> T]he whole reason behind the large tank was so I could build a coral bommie and offer large open swimming spaces and many hiding places for the reef inhabitants. As such My lake area will feature a prominent swamp tree/similar to the coral island before.
> 
> I am currently working on that and so far I am only "ok" with how it looks. I will also be building a large banyon tree for the center section and a third tree for the opposite end.
> 
> I was thinking about building a prominent rock centerpiece out of styrofoam/grout but then realized I could just go the quarry and get the real thing. I picked up about 800 lbs of select "superior trap rock". The central rock weighed about 250 lbs alone. I have it sitting on 6 inches of styrofoam to distribute the weight. That was tough to get- it took three of us.
> 
> The tank will have a somewhat minimilist approach. The main features will be the lake with a wrap around river. A large sloping hill in the center reaching almost to the top of the tank. A banyon tree replicate adjacent to the hill. An old swamp/marsh tree growing out of the lake, a possible waterfall and another swamp tree on the far end of the lake in the river.
> 
> Because a large portion of the tank will have a sloping hill (remember the tank is 5' from front to back) much of the backdrop will be covered. The rest of the exposed area will probably be coco fiber/silicon/ black great stuff with potential planting areas. The back wall will be the only thing planted with larger leaved/creeping species just to cover it up and offer a natural back drop.


Sounds awesome. Are you making the stumps or are you using the real McCoy? With rock that size I would be wary of bowing, it is acrylic no? I have yet to see a setup with an impressive banyon. I can't wait to see how it turns out. You know what would look really neat with your ray, a mangrove. Any pics yet?


----------



## Energy

Just pics of an empty aquarium.  I am making the trees the rocks are the real mccoy. The bottom of the tank is braced all the way across and I have a 4x3 area of 6 inches of polystyrean under the rock. The boyouncy of the PS will probably compensate for 2/3 of the weight of the rock.

Below is a picture of what I would like to create for the banyon tree center section.

See how the roots curl and swoop- anyone have any advice on how to make styrofoam do that? I have a heat gun but that just melts it.

For my swamp tree I used a pvc backbone for strength and then glued on the styrofoam and started the grouting. Seems to work.


----------



## Energy

An end view of the tank during the coralline algae scraping. It was so thick we couldn't use standard plastic tools. Thats why we need to refinish now. I sure hope that goes well.


----------



## Energy

Start of the swamp tree.


----------



## jackxc925

If you are planning to gravity feed water in, how are you going to set up a misting system? And wouldnt having the sump above eliminate the point of having a sump and not needing a pump inside the tank? 

Personally I would have it below and rig your misting system up to the same resevoir as everything else. 

Just my opinion


----------



## Energy

Swamp tree with 2 coats on. 

Question: Why use unsanded grout versus other concrete products. much of the grout out there contains anti-molding agents. I did use an unsanded grout for my first two coats and then switched to a concrete floor leveling compound for my third coat. This worked better in my opinion and dried within 10 minutes. I am still working on this so I don't know if it will be ok long-term.


----------



## Energy

jackxc925 said:


> If you are planning to gravity feed water in, how are you going to set up a misting system? And wouldnt having the sump above eliminate the point of having a sump and not needing a pump inside the tank?
> 
> Personally I would have it below and rig your misting system up to the same resevoir as everything else.
> 
> Just my opinion


There will be a float valve inside the aquarium, if the water level drops it will then refill it to a safe level. This will not control the water level if it should rise to high. To regulate that portion will take some good ol' trial and error before it's tuned in just right.

The sump will be there just to have a larger body of water for stability and a place to perform all the filtration. An elevated sump isn't technically a "sump" which means lowest point, but it can get you an idea of what I might do.

Everything is still in planning so it could change dramaticilly before the final product- that's the fun of it.


----------



## midget

looking good keep us update. also are you geting a baby ray an adult. good luck


----------



## fleshfrombone

Looking good. That banyon tree in the pic is sweet. You could try making it out of solid great stuff. Shouldn't be too hard to lay out a skeleton, coat with great stuff, add texture, and there you go.


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> Swamp tree with 2 coats on.
> 
> Question: Why use unsanded grout versus other concrete products. much of the grout out there contains anti-molding agents. I did use an unsanded grout for my first two coats and then switched to a concrete floor leveling compound for my third coat. This worked better in my opinion and dried within 10 minutes. I am still working on this so I don't know if it will be ok long-term.


Wondering how you cured these large pieces? You obviously had some really large structures in your reef tank. How did you go about neutralizing the concrete?


----------



## Energy

I layed out a very basic structure for the reef and built my live rock with epoxy resin mixed with arrigonite. There was no cement involved for the reef structure.

Anyway- here is the finished swamp tree prior to sealing. Two more trees to go and then some rock work.


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> I layed out a very basic structure for the reef and built my live rock with epoxy resin mixed with arrigonite. There was no cement involved for the reef structure.
> 
> Anyway- here is the finished swamp tree prior to sealing. Two more trees to go and then some rock work.


So how do you plan on curing this one?


----------



## Energy

Well- not a lot of my stuff will be underwater. What I do have I will seal and then probably drop off in a lake for a few weeks.


----------



## jubjub47

jackxc925 said:


> If you are planning to gravity feed water in, how are you going to set up a misting system? And wouldnt having the sump above eliminate the point of having a sump and not needing a pump inside the tank?
> 
> Personally I would have it below and rig your misting system up to the same resevoir as everything else.
> 
> Just my opinion


The reverse sump design is a very efficient way to accomplish the filtration while keeping the integrity of the tank with his requirements. 

One issue with using the aquarium water as the mist reseviour is added minerals in the water which will spot up the glass rather quickly.


----------



## Energy

Good point on spotting the face of the acrylic. I haven't decided yet on the watering or the air handling systems. I'm still working on the overall set-up.


----------



## Totty

Good luck on the project!


----------



## jackxc925

jubjub47 said:


> The reverse sump design is a very efficient way to accomplish the filtration while keeping the integrity of the tank with his requirements.
> 
> One issue with using the aquarium water as the mist reseviour is added minerals in the water which will spot up the glass rather quickly.


I dont think it would be an issue seeing as you dont point the nozzles towards the glass. but yes I do know some people use ro water only


----------



## Energy

Progress: I have created the drip wall that overshadows the lake. It was easier and cheaper to actually go to the quarry and pick up one large truck load of rock to create the drip wall and river bed than to try and make them out of styrofoam.

Behind the rock work is a float valve that will control the lake and river level.

I also have picked up a 90 gallon sump that will act as my filter for the water system. 

MODS- can we move this thread into the construction forum?

I also have finished a swamp tree in the foreground corner. This will be covered with hanging moss, the legs will be underwater and surrounded by plants to cover the sharp angularity needed to support a large structure.


----------



## ChrisK

Where are you keeping this monster?


----------



## Energy

It's in my living room.


----------



## jubjub47

It's coming along nicely. It's hard to tell from the pics, how deep is that water going to be?


----------



## Energy

The water depth will be between 6-7"inches. The lake area is approximately 5' x 5' with a 10 foot stream that connects into a smaller lake on the other end that is 3'x5'.


----------



## midget

an pics on the lake and i see i went agaist a false bottom and just use a solid one, just make sure it can drain off it or you'll lose a lot of plants. its looks great. good luck


----------



## Viaje

When I scrolled over the thread title and read "Hi everyone I have a 15 foot long by 5 foot wide by 33 inch tall acrylic aquarium..." I thought "hey! that sounds like Energy's tank!"

Then my heart sunk when I saw that you've taken it down! D:

I'm glad I got to see it at least once. I'll have to go back and read the whole thread (no, I didn't really read anything) but looking at the pictures you just posted- I think it should have a RHINOCEROS IGUANA in it!

Edit: okay, I read some of the thread... no rhino iguana. I'll just have to watch to see how this all turns out- I'm excited! You might want to check out the MN herpetological Society, we meet the first friday of every month at the U of M, also if you're looking at freshwater stingrays, Theresa at Terrequatics in Champlin always has a few stunners.


----------



## Energy

Viaje- were you over at a meeting once? I'm sorry I can't place you- I've had hundreds- maybe into a thousand different people over in the past few years. 

Anyway the new system is coming along nicely- but slow. The build is always the most fun anyway.

Thanks for the info as well!


----------



## Viaje

I was lucky enough to be invited along after the speaker event that was *uhm* towards the end of last year, November maybe? That was a great day. I'm Abby on TCMAS, that probably doesn't help though.


----------



## Energy

Was that when Julian Sprung came over? Or one of the other times with Mike Palletta or Eric Borneman?


----------



## Viaje

Energy said:


> Was that when Julian Sprung came over? Or one of the other times with Mike Palletta or Eric Borneman?


I'm really not sure... I just remember that the two speakers that day both talked solely about water quality, and their opinions and methods couldn't have been more opposite -especially my sister and I, who were noobs and wanted to listen to them- left like "so which method am I supposed to use?!!!"

I think one of the club members talked about parasites that day, too. But I don't remember anyone's names.


----------



## sporkinator

I can't wait for more updates!


----------



## IN2DEEP

Wow, this is going to be bad azz. I almost missed it (don't look at the begginer section often). Still going to make the banyon tree center section? I was looking at one of those crazy pics and just didn't have enough room, to create the pockets and twists in my tank. 










Forget glueing the pieces in layers, use long stainless screws run it at angles (can easily seperate for detailed crevices or replace a piece in case of mistake), a drywall saw to "rake" across to quickly sculpt the foam, Fostner bits for making holes, and a big bag for the mess your gonna make.


----------



## Energy

That looks Knarly and better than mine. I'll admit I'm a beginner at making trees and rocks. I have two trees completed and would give them a b-. for now they will do and as I get better they will be replaced. My banyon tree only has three swooping roots because of space and skill restraints. Time will improve my skills until I have something I am proud of. Heck it took quite a few years before I started top show off the aquarium, so who knows how long this will take.


----------



## Energy

IF a mod reads this can we move it to the construction forum?


----------



## Invert

Viaje said:


> When I scrolled over the thread title and read "Hi everyone I have a 15 foot long by 5 foot wide by 33 inch tall acrylic aquarium..." I thought "hey! that sounds like Energy's tank!"
> 
> Then my heart sunk when I saw that you've taken it down! D:


I had the same thought (former reefer, since moved to dart frogs). I remembered that TOTM, sad to see it go, glad to see it's being put to a good use. 
If you're still thinking about the thunder and lightning, find a local electrical or computer engineering student or hacker), most of them should be about to design something that would do the trick. I know that triggered strobes are used for concerts and such, so it shouldn't be too hard to hook one up to a sensor/controller/etc. If you use a computer to control the sound, you should be able to find the hardware to set it all up online. These links might get you started:
Simple Computer->Relay Controlled Light Circuits - All About Circuits Forum
http://www.spiffomatic64.com/lightshow/

Also, I haven't seen anyone else mention it, but dart frogs can drown if they can't get out of a deep pool of water, hopefully that won't be an be a major issue. Bolder frogs might be less likely to panic jump into the water.

Great build, I look forward to watching it over the next several years!


----------



## Energy

I know they can drown but the entire stream has multiple rock layers to make exit and entry a little safer. Still- there could be casualties since there will be water.


----------



## rcteem

any luck finding the rays yet??? If not pm me...i know of some breeders in NY and ive gotten them in before for someone and they paid around $750 i think. I hate but am excited to hear what ya did to your tank. It sounds awesome. Your tank was my owners dream of what he would love to have in the store.


----------



## rcteem

are you doing rays in both lakes???


----------



## Energy

The two lakes are connected by a stream that runs in front of the tank. I will only have one at the most two rays and they will be able to swim through the narrow channel to each end where the lakes are located. The rays you get are they the leopoldi or the henlie by any chance?


----------



## vrmarkii

Energy said:


> Was that when Julian Sprung came over? Or one of the other times with Mike Palletta or Eric Borneman?


Thats quite the guest list! The reef Aquarium volume one was my first reef book. If this viv even turns out half as nice as your reef was... This is going to be awesome.


----------



## rcteem

I believe they were henlie


----------



## Energy

Henlie? So they are black with white or yellow dots? If so when the system is running I will take one. Can you check on that for me?


Here is a progress shot. I used 2 inch polystyrean over the back wall. To make the Great Stuff go further I sprayed a little out and then quickly troweled it over the surfaces. It turns back into a really tacky glue and go's a lot farther. Then for texture and dimension I would add some globs here and there. The holes in the back drop are for plants. Hiding the overflow boxes was tricky but I basically did the same thing as the backdrop. I used about 8 cans of black great stuff to cover the entire 15' span. The future plan is that the backdrop will be totally planted over so I didn't bother adding driftwood etc. I did put in a few pieces of Oak bark just for fun until it grows over.


----------



## midget

wow man your rays and frogs are gonna love that. and your goona need alot of plants lol. any updates on what your gonna use for subtarte i'm ording the stuff to make it tonight i'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## Energy

The substrate will be COIR- coco fiber, sand and fir bark. Pretty simple stuff but it seems like quite a few people on here use it. If it ain't broke- don't fix it!


----------



## midget

ight cool. good luck


----------



## VivariumWorks

I would seriously consider adding some regular soil to that mix. Regular cheep potting soil. Preferably the stuff that comes in the dirt cheep bags at walmart/lowes/hd without any foam additives or fertilizers. If you can get good quality black loam looking soil, all the better. This is pure potting soil/loam here not manure or the additive stuff. 

I know there’s been a vigorous debate about this but your not dealing with a normal sized setup and your looking at log factor differences in the soil and plant composition. I would add at least an 1/8 of this potting soil to your admix for the purpose of a few things:

1. What your going to use has almost zero nutrients. The coir has very little usable product in it from the plants viewpoint, the sand has zero, and the fir bark wont have enough as it only can release nutrients as it breaks down. Your going to find that your plants are going to grow deep root systems, as they have the space to do so, get large, and become nutrient deficient. Even just basic potting soil will have enough nitrogen, phosphorus, iron, and trace other elements you'll need to help stave this off unless the soil is completely boggy and stagnant, in which case it will become 100% nutrient deficient in a short while as the anaerobic bacteria will use the available nitrates/phosphates as an energy source and leave you with nothing the plants want. (hence why some bog plants have evolved means of catching these sources).

2. All the bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes, and other soil critters will not be in your system. GREAT you froggers say, but keep in mind these animals live in the worlds most bacterially active and diverse regions of the world. A large portion of the rainforest species were looking to protect, are the microscopic critters. If the frog is healthily and eating its going to be able to fight off these natural soil microbes with no problem. Adding natural soil to the mix will aid in your system as a whole. I fear that by going with your current soil mix will be like trying to setup a reef tank without a single bit of live rock to start the coraline/algae growth. Most vivariums get this bacterial inoculation by the potting soil that tags along when they add their plants, and this might just be enough for yours, but I wouldn’t bet on it.

3. I’ve used regular potting soil as an ADDATIVE in many, many setups with no ill effects the frogs or the system. Plus think of the soil as a natural buffering system of checks and balances that will help create competition and reduce the speed at which any one disease, fungus, parasite, problem, progresses through the system.

I've built a system to do what your looking for with regards to the lighting, sound effects, and such. Its pretty basic. You have two sets of digital timers. One goes off the second the other goes on. You just sync the two together. On timer "A" you have your regular lights and such. On timer B you have your Lightening strobes, a tape deck/cd player stuck in the ON position to play when power goes to it with your sound FX, and the mister/drip/ waterfall/rain/foggers. The effect is pretty cool. Or if you really want to show off, you can set all this up with a digital timer that also has an infrared override switch so you have a little clicker that allows you to turn on/off your rain/mist/FX cycle on demand. Its great a gag/party trick.


----------



## Energy

Vivarium works- Thanks for the advice. I have access to awesome black dirt/ and also Peat dirt. Furthermore I have 140 acres of woods in Northern Minnesota and some of it has natural sphagnum moss. I could get dump truck loads of the stuff. Do you think it would be beneficial to use this in the equation at all? Since I have access to as much as I want and for free I have been wondering how best to use it if at all. This would be similar to the Canadian stuff people prefer.


----------



## VivariumWorks

Heck yea! Especially if its alive, or close to it! You could add some to the mix equation for cheep volume displacement, but if its not been processed or dryed out too bad you could get some cool growth going after a little while too. I'd add some to the mix your already making, and put a thin layer on top of the soil. This way you would just dig holes in the soil, put the plants in, and cover it up with the local sphagnum to help keep the soil from getting washed into the water or tacked in by the critters. This is of course only if you want the sphagnum moss look. If you don't, then just add some to the soil and use the other moss species/ricca your already planning on using.


----------



## Energy

To bad I'm not really after the sphagnum look. It's all alive and only about 2 hours away for me to harvest it. I will consider the possibilities but appreciate the input. 

QUESTION: I have an Epi-web like filter fabric. It's about an inch thick and very course. I was thinking about wrapping this around some 1" pvc, punching holes in the pipe and plumbing water through it. Then I would put a maxijet on it with a timer to pump the lake or aquarium water through it for 6 on/off cycles. Then laying it across the tank like a fallen log and planting with moss and ferns. Any input or suggestions? 

This might be a good place for the sphagnum moss.


----------



## midget

Energy said:


> To bad I'm not really after the sphagnum look. It's all alive and *only about 2 hours away for me *to harvest it. I will consider the possibilities but appreciate the input.
> 
> QUESTION: I have an Epi-web like filter fabric. It's about an inch thick and very course. I was thinking about wrapping this around some 1" pvc, punching holes in the pipe and plumbing water through it. Then I would put a maxijet on it with a timer to pump the lake or aquarium water through it for 6 on/off cycles. Then laying it across the tank like a fallen log and planting with moss and ferns. Any input or suggestions?
> 
> This might be a good place for the sphagnum moss.


 lol thats what i tell my parents but noo lol  that should work perfect. i would use the smallest one and have it on for more like 12 on/off cycles because it will dry real quick. good luck.


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> ...
> Here is a progress shot. I used 2 inch polystyrean over the back wall. To make the Great Stuff go further I sprayed a little out and then quickly troweled it over the surfaces. It turns back into a really tacky glue and go's a lot farther. Then for texture and dimension I would add some globs here and there. ...


So you put 2 inch poly attached directly to acrylic and then Great Stuff over the poly?


----------



## Energy

rmelancon- pretty much right on. It was 2" polystyrean( I had it sitting around) I then used a hot air gun to melt some holes through it- for plants etc. Then I applied a very little of the black great stuff, spread it with a putty knife until it became like a tacky adhesive, then sprayed a little more new stuff down to give it dimension. I added Cocoa fiber over that and let it sit for 20 minutes. That was it. I didn't even attach this to the back wall- I just snug fit it into place. Mt overflow boxes are inside the tank so I did the same thing but added a little tree bark into the mix just for fun. My end goal will be the entire back wall green with plants so I don't really have to add a lot of detail.

Anyone have any experience with the Epi-web branches or creating something similar? I am wondering how well they cover the branch if it was laying somewhat horizontal across the tank and slightly elevated. I think the top would take just fine but I don't want to see the epiweb from the underside.


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> ... Then I applied a very little of the black great stuff, spread it with a putty knife until it became like a tacky adhesive, then sprayed a little more new stuff down to give it dimension. I added Cocoa fiber over that and let it sit for 20 minutes. ....


Did you apply the coco fiber "in place" ie vertical or was the polystyrene horizontal outside of the tank? Just wondering how well the coco fiber stuck to the great stuff and did gravity help keep it in place while the GS expanded.


----------



## Energy

I did it all outside the tank with the polystyrean laying flat. I think this is pretty much the norm around this site.

rmelancon- are you building one soon? There is a ton of info floating around this site with different ways to build a background. One person built one using Polystyrean and grout to form a rock wall. That was pretty cool. 

Another guy covered epiweb in floor leveler and made an awesome backdrop. 

There is definately more than one way to skin a cat.


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> I did it all outside the tank with the polystyrean laying flat. I think this is pretty much the norm around this site.
> 
> rmelancon- are you building one soon? There is a ton of info floating around this site with different ways to build a background. One person built one using Polystyrean and grout to form a rock wall. That was pretty cool.
> 
> ...


That was what I figured. Not building one soon, just interested in the different methods. I'm familiar with a bunch of them, but most require more patience than I have and/or are extremely messy. Your method so far is something that I've thought about and fits most of what I look for: easily built with minimal mess, non-permanent/easily removable, doesn't take forever to cure or require expensive sealants, etc. I don't have backgrounds in any of my enclosures but always thinking about how to do one "better".


----------



## Energy

The Epi-Web backgrounds seem pretty easy and quick. Just get a sheet that will snug fit the back wall, plant it and keep it watered.


----------



## Energy

VENTING SYSTEM: OK I have a very experimental vent system working to keep the acrylic free of condensation. For those familiar with sea swirls which is a rotating device in the aquarium industry that produces alternating currents by simply oscilating back and forth like a fan. They are used to pump water through while they rotate. Instead I have hooked up some large floor-drying fans that pump a good volume of air through the sea swirls. This rotates back and forth to clear a larger volume of space on the aquarium pane. In theory and dry run practice it works. I haven't had a chance to run it against a humid atmosphere. 

Misting system. I am also working on putting together a misting system. I have a pressure boosting pump from a home water purification system that is very similar to what the professional companies sell for misting applications. So far it has worked OK. I was able to pick up a digital timer from Menards for $17 that works right down to a one minute on/off cycle up to 8 times per day. It is also programable to run at specific times for example on at 4:07 pm and off at 4:09 pm on what ever day of the week you choose.


----------



## Tazely

Try misting the glass with water to see how fast the water disapates. Thats how I set mine up, course mine is much smaller and runs off of computer fans. Also, just a thought, a fogger or a mister ran off a presure tank both a wonderfull humidity increasers. I'm not expert but I do tinker with alot of strange ways of doing things. Looks great so far. You have more patiences than I, I would be sleep deprived triing to finish it all before I stoped LOL.


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> The Epi-Web backgrounds seem pretty easy and quick. Just get a sheet that will snug fit the back wall, plant it and keep it watered.


I like the simplicity of Epi-Web, but there is at least one story of a frog getting a toe entangled in it and ended up dead. Don't remeber where I saw it, maybe here.


----------



## Energy

I think I have finally made a fake log that meets my satisfaction. I ended up trashing the other two I made. Then I built about 4 maybe 5 prototype pieces and liked none of them. After all that I made what you see below which is the best I've been able to do so far.

I also have the ventalation system fabricated, I just hope it works. The lids are complete as well. Next is the filtration system for the water section.


----------



## midget

Wow that is the best fake log i've ever seen. looks more real to me; amazing work!


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## Energy

Thanks- it's really easy to make but very time consuming! It doesn't really take any skill so it's perfect for me ha ha.


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## midget

For me too lol


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## VivariumWorks

Looks cool! I like the log.

That looked like an oak bark? Or a pecan tree bark? In either rate, don't be toooooo suprised if it only lasts about a year in your setup. That bark is very fast to degrade in wet warm environments. I've used it before with mixed results, mostly when the moss didn't take to it. If you can get it covered/growing with moss that should hold the wood together enough to offset the degradation of the wood.


----------



## ChrisK

rmelancon said:


> I like the simplicity of Epi-Web, but there is at least one story of a frog getting a toe entangled in it and ended up dead. Don't remeber where I saw it, maybe here.


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...-epiweb-warning.html?highlight=bicolor+epiweb


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## Energy

Vivarium works- thats the plan. I basically consider it coverage until the moss can take over. Ultimately the bark will hopefully be totally obscured. It will be interesting to see how long it lasts.


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## midget

I though that was real bark but i just though you did a great job oh well...lol Still nice none the less


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## Energy

yep - it's real bark peeled off from downed Oak trees,adhered with great stuff and coco fibered over the joints. The plan is to let the bark slowly degrade while the plants take hold. this is a picture of an elevated "fallen log" that has been taken over by plants. this is a friend of mine's vivarium from The netherlands. They do some awesome stuff over there for sure!


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## midget

wow very nice, i'm sure your will turn out 10x times better


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## Energy

So this will be the main cross log to create the fallen tree look. It is made from a 4" sewer PVC(black pipe). I cut holes through out the top to create a rotting log look and actually allow a decent place to plant deeper rooted plants. I drilled the pipe to keep water from gathering and then filled it with a pond skimmer material(Like Epi-Web). I coated this with coco fiber to make it look natural and create a softer area in case frogs decide to use it. The entire log will be lofted over the bed.


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## Energy

This is the end of the main fallen log. It shows a close up of the coco fiber coated plant base material. The main idea will be for the entire log to be covered in moss with some plants sprouting up and out. The bark will decay and provide a better substrate as the plants take hold.


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## Energy

Midget- that would be hard to do. That vivarium in particular is one of my favorites and one I hope to some day get to that level.


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## midget

wow did you use the same method on this log as the other? Also have you decide what frogs yet? Good luck


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## Energy

Yeah it's all the same. Very simple way that seems to give a good result. I still have no idea what frogs will go in.


----------



## eos

Wow.. that fallen log thing looks amazing! Nice job with that


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## Energy

The main log structure is built and in place. The waterfall is also complete and the filtration tank is positioned. I am using a maxijet pump and it works perfect. Just the right amount of flow. I pump the water from the lake into the elevated sump where it will get filtered and then returned back into the lake through the drip wall. The drip wall will be planted so a ton of biological filtration will take place there. In fact the sump will only really have some chemical and mechanical filtration through a sediment trap. It will also be where I can maintain temperature and perform the water changes. 

A snag- the misting system doesn't work. I believe the pump I have is either to old or underpowered to work properly. I have a new one on order. The current pump doesn't produce enough pressure to make a mist it just squirts the water out in a weak trickle.


----------



## Energy

The main drip/waterfall powered by the maxi-jet. I will have to add another maxi-jet on the opposite side of the tank to get proper water circulation through out the system. I am pleased with the pattern the water takes down the wall. I have a float valve hidden inside the tank to automatically regulate the water level and compensate for evaporation. That way I will never have to manually adjust the water height. I tested it out yesterday and it worked perfect so far.


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## midget

The drip wall shoud provide tons of bio filtering but what if your power goes out or a sytem crash of some sort? I would put some bio media inside the sump just incase hate to see you rays die  Also i'm ausiming the rays mouths are large enough to eat and frog so that wouldn't come into factor here?


edit- also i a way to try and get the logs to last longer is to go easy on the misting and then when colonzied by moss and plants then go head with heaviy misting. Good luck


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## Energy

I plan on inoculating the water portion of the substrate with established sand and gravel from my other aquarium. This will begin the processing of culturing live bacteria through the water area. I will also have some bioballs in the sump although I feel they play a minor role when you consider how much surface area there will be to establish and culture bacterial colonies.


----------



## midget

Energy said:


> I plan on inoculating the water portion of the substrate with established sand and* gravel *from my other aquarium. This will begin the processing of culturing live bacteria through the water area. I will also have some bioballs in the sump although I feel they play a minor role when you consider how much surface area there will be to establish and culture bacterial colonies.


 with ray! jk That should help a ton in the start up. Yea it will also provide a differn't type of bio bateria then your drip wall can't rember which types of bateria though lol. The drip wll will provide the most benfical one at least it has in my exp.


----------



## Energy

This is a shot of the filtration room. The aquarium on the back wall is the elevated sump that returns back into the main display. The tall vertical tank on the left by the windows is my RO holding tank. This tank regulates the height of the water in the display and provides clean untouched RO water for my misting system. This tank holds approximately 100 gallons and the elevated sump is 90 gallons. Sorry for the mess around- it clutters up the shot but I wanted to get the general idea out there.

Lighting will be by T-5's. I have a light meter to read how well it will penetrate to the bottom. I am sure it will be fine, if it can grow high light loving corals than moss shouldn't have an issue. 

The top of the tank is fully enclosed and the ventalation system is working good so far. No condensation on the main glass.


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## midget

I don't rember you lighting set up but since you were using for your reef tank then you'll be buring your moss  Its nice to have a filtration room mine was only 10sq feet though i had to get creative


----------



## frogfreak

This viv is unbelievable  It's coming along so fast too.

It's going to take a truck load of plants to fill it!


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## Energy

The lights won't burn the plants. I have a light meter which I use to read the intensity of the lights at various areas and heights in the system. That way I can adjust and compensate for too much or not enough light.

This Picture is of one of the two mains fans that keep the front glass free from condensation. Basically it is a high output floor drying type of fan purchased at Menards or Home depot. Then I converted the output by combining parts from a heat duct with PVC pipe so I could pump this air down into a 1.5 inch PVC line.

You can see a black thing in the bottom that I am pointing at. This is actually a "sea swirl" for aquarium use. It is designed to oscilate incoming water and creat random patterns in an aquarium. I have converted it to rotate and blow air over a larger surface area.

The two main fans are plumbed into 4 sea swirls. So one fan can run two sea swirls and each sea swirl keeps about 3-5 linear feet of area clear from condensation(so far).


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## Energy

These are the outputs from the sea swirls that rotate inside the aquarium blowing the fresh air in. I have mounted misting heads on the back side of the output so that my watering system will rotate as well. This way 4 misting heads can cover 15 linear feet of tank. So far it has worked but I still need to upgrade the misting pump.


----------



## Chad Vossen

thought i'd post here instead of TCMAS (im Chad Vossen on TCMAS)

you should definitely make your way to a MHS meeting (there's a meeting this friday actually!), as abby has mentioned earlier in this thread. 
Upcoming Speakers
im sure if you introduce yourself and share that your building a monster vivarium, you'll make a bunch of new friends 

also, a new local reptile zoo that may be worth looking into. Reptile & Amphibian Discovery Zoo the guy in the photo on the front page is a member of the herpetological society. they should be opening up soon, though im sure some of the people involved in building the display cages would be willing to come over and critique your build. if anything, im sure they will have a few vivariums set up. 

on tcmas i recommended false rock backgrounds using foam and concrete. my favorite is this one: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/22002-60-gallon-construction.html . also Faux (fake) Rocks: Build Log with Pics. - Vivarium Forums
my method of building fake / faux rocks - Vivarium Forums
Faux (fake) Rock BG for Geckos: Build Log with Pics. - Vivarium Forums

im interested to see what plants you use. i would recommend cryptocorynes, anubias, bromeliads (Neoregelia "fireball" is my favorite), orchids, and ground cover (i think you mentioned riccia as your first choice). i also think it'd be sweet to have a few predatory plants as well, such as some of the smaller pitcher plants (so it doesnt eat the frogs).


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## VivariumWorks

Your misting system has a reason why its not working and the pump is only half the equation. Your pump is strong enough to move and pump four heads. You likely have the aquatec 8800? It looks like it, or another company's same thing. That pump is stong enough to move 4 mister heads, just not of the type you have. You have the Orbit Flexmist heads that have the yellow nozzle. This when fully pressured will give a strong raining but not so much of a true misting. The heads just don't allow for enought pressure to be built up to atomize the water droplets so the driplet size is going to be large and thus your needed volume is higher.

I use to use those heads with an 8800 and I was able to get one at full blast and the other at about half strength. Your going to need a stronger booster pump, but keep in mind that even if you go with the next one up you might still not be able to get enough volume moving for all 4 heads. 

When you get the new one in, test it and see, and if your not happy with what your getting I would suggest going with new heads.

If you go to lowes you can find a outside misting kit for the patio. This uses a tan colored tubing that is a slight bit different diameter than the 1/4" tubing your using. It allows a lower water volume used, but due to the heads requireing a stong pressure behind it, which even your smaller booster pump can manage, your mist will be just that, rather than a rain. What I would do with your system as big as it is...

Keep the current misting design you have and use the larger pressure booster pump to run the yellow heads. I think you'll find that 4 isn't enough to get everywhere though. So run a second misting tube into the tank and run the higher pressure heads with the lower powered pump. This way you can get both fine particulate/atomized water, which WILL increase humidity, and the large droplett rain from the yellow heads which will soak things, but no increase humidity much.

You can get this mister tubing and heads individually but get a basic starter kit, and some white flex hoses. It will work the same as your Orbit green flexmists but with the finer mist. And no, you can't just switch the heads ast the 1/4" tubing isn't strong enough to hold the pressure needed for the metal heads.

Also, this way you can set it up where it fine mists often, but "rains" on occation. Always a cool effect when coupled with strobes for lighting, Sound FX, and dimmed lighting. Especially when its triggered by an infared override switch on your keychain...


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## Energy

Thank you so much guys- armegedon 48- awesome rocks! Those are some of the best I have seen and thank you for the upcoming speaker information as well. Unfortunately I will be out of town for that next meeting.

Vivarium works- thanks for the insight. You just saved me hours of guesswork and lots of money. Do you have a link to that misting kit from lowes so I get the right one? That's a good idea to have multiple zones- I actually already had it set up that way. I will experiment with the pumps and definately look into that misting system from Lowes.


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## Energy

Orbit Performance Plus Outdoor Misting Kit : TargetOrbit Performance Plus Outdoor Misting Kit : Target

Is this the right one?


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## VivariumWorks

Yea thats the one, but thats really expensive. You can get something similar at Lowes (Home Depot doesn't carry it for some reason) for like 19.99. The flex heads are like 5 for 5 too. Don't buy that one! Way too much!


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## Energy

Thanks- I will check them out and see if they have one.

Tank Update- the general landscaping is complete. The main hill is in place as well as all the rock and most of the tree work. I am using two Ro units to fill the tank. I am currently researching the best substrate to use and have been debating on going with the EL Natural Method. This method simply uses 1 inch of black dirt and 1 inch or sand. I have used a similar method with good luck but I am worried about the stingray creating continual cloudiness as it burrows.

The main last steps are complete the misting system and then start on the lights. After that is planting etc.


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## officexotics

I love the tank in your living room. I have been eagerly following this post and can't wait to see the results of planting.


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## Energy

Quick update- the substrate for the lake is in- pure sand. I toyed with mixing it and then even went so far as to buy Turface Pro league but stopped after doing a quick check on what it turns into. 

Misting system is done. The new pump from Mist King came in and works like a charm after I removed the flex heads. I am now filling the tank with 2 ro units and that should be complete by early next week. I still have to complete the lights- all T-5.

Then tweaking and planting,etc.


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## midget

Just sand i mean that be ok if it wasn't planted, but since it is its very poor for the plants. Good luck though


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## maxdendros

Looks great so far I can't wait to see when its finished


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## Energy

The water section will not be heavily planted. Because of the limited water depth I needed to keep the substrate depth to about 1.5 inches. Furthermore because the lake will be dedicated to a freshwater stingray- a burrowing animal- I had to eliminate the possibility of many of the different types of substrate.


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## midget

Energy said:


> The water section will not be heavily planted. Because of the limited water depth I needed to keep the substrate depth to about 1.5 inches. Furthermore because the lake will be dedicated to a freshwater stingray- a burrowing animal- I had to eliminate the possibility of many of the different types of substrate.


ok that make sense good luck.


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## Energy

Progress shot- The fallen log planted with tree moss I bought from Umbrasprite. Water section is in the process of filling up with RO in this picture. The idea will be for this fallen log to get totally taken over by the moss and Possibly Orchids etc.


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## Energy

Closer shot of the log. The orchid planting areas are cavities filled with Epi-web and coated in coco fiber. This makes the cavities blend in with the rest of the log. They are hard to see but basically everywhere there isn't the light green moss are epi-web (like) planting beds.


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## Energy

Not a good shot but I tried to get in part of the sloping hill. The right side or the sloped hill side of the tank is still basically unlit. 

Side note- I have finally had a small test of the defrosting system and it worked good(so far).


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## Viaje

Looks awesome, I love how the moss is growing in on the right side of the tank!


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## midget

This is an amazing tank i must say. It be perfect for really large frog.


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## frogparty

can't wait to see the rays in there


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## Chad Vossen

Stan, i was talking with theresa at terrequatics (maybe she already pmed you or will post here soon, as i showed her this thread), and she is certain the stingray will go after frogs that fall into the water. she has experience with stingrays (she has always had them in stock at the store) and though she agrees you can train them, they will have no problem experimenting with a frog kicking in the water. 

she mentioned the possibility of frogs drowning if they cant get out of the water. i can see this most likely being the case if they try to "cross" the river or pond area which is just an acrylic wall. i dont have personal experience with dart frogs and dont know how well they swim, so this may not be an issue.

aside from that, im impressed by the progress you've made. it looks really good and i cant wait to see it planted. im not a huge fan of the straight edge that make up the stream area, but it may not even be noticed after plants fill in.


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## Energy

Thanks for the info. This is still in the rough stages. I don't plan on having a show quality piece for at least a year but it's fun to keep a construction journal and interact with everyone as it's going along. 

If a frog does drown then it's an idiot and wouldn't survive a minute in a real jungle. No offense to the frog lovers here. I did design the entire lake and stream edge with multiple climbing platforms along the entire width. Because I did this it also doesn't allow easy access for the stingray along the edge. If a frog decides to swim into the lake - then so be it. Otherwise it will be pretty much safe from both the stingray and drowning.

The water doesn't actually have any acrylic edge at all. The entire bank is made of slate rock built into a stepped edge in multiple platforms.

Armegedon- nice to see you on here. I'm not a fan of the straight edge either but it maximizes the land area. That will definately get played with down the road. But what you don't see- Is dirt on the glass anywhere. A personal pet peeve is looking at 8 inches of dirt built up on a tank to see a pond area. This was the only way I could do it without seeing a cross section of soil.

Extensively tested the dehumidifyng system of the tank- It works great! Takes a little while but clears it up pretty much 100%


----------



## Chad Vossen

Energy said:


> But what you don't see- Is dirt on the glass anywhere. A personal pet peeve is looking at 8 inches of dirt built up on a tank to see a pond area. This was the only way I could do it without seeing a cross section of soil.


i absolutely agree! im working on an exo-terra vivarium right now. it will be drilled so that filtration and water changes can be done easily and quickly. i have painted the entire inside of the exo-terra so that i wont have to see dirt, or other building materials. after the build is finished, i'll use a razor blade to clean away the paint that isnt covered. the entire system will be inorganic, since i've had so many head-aches from using bedding in my vivs. i have a friend who is very talented with dry brushing, so im going to have her paint the false rocks to give them a natural look. 

well, thats enough details for now. i'll post a whole thread when im further along. 

but getting back to the quote, it is also a pet peeve for me when i see vivariums with layers of lecca, gravel and soil. same with reef tanks with super deep sand beds.


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## rmelancon

Energy said:


> ...If a frog does drown then it's an idiot and wouldn't survive a minute in a real jungle...


The only real risk of drowning will be if there is a strong enough current into the return. Other than that the only time they will really enter the water is if they get spooked or possibly to deposit a tad.


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## Energy

I started to plant the fallen log, so far nothing special just a few bromelids.

I have an order coming with New England Herpotogical Society. I am getting there bromelids special order pack and a Segwelia.- Don't ask me how to spell these plants names. The owner seems like a really nice guy.


----------



## Energy

Another shot of the fallen log with the Bromelids.

After careful review the defrosting system works like a charm but I am switching it around. I want to see if I can make some minor changes but decrease the wattage draw by over 60% and still get good results.

Next major task is cleaning up the water. the tannins sure have stained the heck out of it. Loads of carbon should help.

The lights are complete and working fine. Now I just need a cheap source for plants! Any suggestions?


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## midget

looking good. Spring Valley Tropicals seems to have a varity of plant for a decent price, also NEherps seems to be one of the better places. Since you viv is so large have you seen some of those really large brom they have at home depot and lowes they probably be perfect for you tank. good luck


edit i guess you have seem the larger broms


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## Energy

Midget- Yep that big brom in the background came from Menards for $1.00. I am also looking for some of the unusual ferns and other plants as highlight pieces here and there.


----------



## midget

You also look some semi-aqutic plants they have on aquarium plant sites some get rather large and be perfect for your tank. If you go to petsmart you'll see these ferns in small conters for sale that should help you with which fern you like to have in you tank, just look for it on the interent it would probly be better size and price. good luck


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## VivariumWorks

Maybe its just the botanist in me and all but...

"good source of cheap plants"?????? Please don't clutter that MASSIVE gorgous thing with anything that us normal sized viv guys have! You have the space and the setup for some amaizing things that we normally can't have. Spend the little bit extra and search around and get stuff that will do that unique viv justice. Please don't go to Lowes/HD for your plants! We all do for our little ones but you've got the potential, space, and volume to fill, so order from specialty nurseries. I mean, you didn't fill your coral setup with just zooanthids right? Don't let us down! You can do it! If nothing else at least get a brom assortment from some of the guys on this forum. I have and have been quite pleased with the variety/colors I got.

Because I'm a plant nerd I go nusery hunting around south texas from time to time looking for cool plants and places to get them. Look up all the places around you and go visit them. If you plan it out you can get about 4 in a day depending on distance. The more obscure/ little old lady run the better. I've found all kinds of weird stuff that way. Online I would hit up:

aqua forest aquarium

For your aquatic plants. All kinds of cool aquatic brophytes to choose from.

Bird Rock Tropicals Home Page

This place is run by my bosses extended family. I can vouch for their quality. Call them too, they might not have everything listed.

Tropiflora's Cargo Report

And of course tropiflora. These guys are really good about putting up pics of what they have in stock but call them too. If you tell them your looking for some odd/unique tropical stuff they might have a few things unlisted. 

And then.... if your REALLY into it. You go visit Hawaii, Costa Rica, Cozumel, tropical paradise of your choice, and bring back, minus soil, cuttings of your own. I've got broms from Costa Rica, moss from Hawaii, and a few ferns from Cozumel. Yes you do have to go through customs with them for Costa Rica/Cozumel, but as long as it doesn't have soil and your nice, they don't give a dang as long as its not pot.


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## Energy

Vivarium works- you talked me into it. But I am a coral nerd and I really don't know what prize specimens for plants are. Any recomendations anyone? I am not looking for large plants because I don't want to fill it up with just one or two - I would like a collection. I have started to order from the sponsors on a number of occasions already. 

Really I am lost as to what a collectors plant is.

Thanks for the links- that is helpful.


----------



## frogparty

OH YEAH! You need a Vresia heiroglyphica for a centerpiece brom. 
Look into some of the smaller to mid sized Phragmepedium orchids, awesome slipper orchids that can tolerate wet feet, and also from S. America.
Check out Dutchman's pipe vines or other crazy vines like passiflora's


----------



## frogparty

check out Begonia bolivienes "bonfire"

you could put some of the bigger Billbergia broms in ther too


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## Chad Vossen

my favorite all time brom is the Neogoralia "Fireball". 

i see hybrids all the time of this plant, but its hard to find the actual plant. when i start looking for plants, the Neo. "fireball" will be the only brom i'll keep. 

i second the lady slipper orchids.


----------



## frogparty

you can't find fireballs?
I have a bunch, and my local nursery has more


----------



## Energy

Those are some great suggestions on the plants. I have looked every single one of those up. Dutchmans- pipe looks like it will get way to big but the lady slipper orchids are perfect. I would like to get the fireball brom but can't find a source. I would prefer to use our own sponsors- anyone have one?

I changed around the defrosting system and it works fine-but now it only uses 84 watts versus the old way that used 204 watts.

I have started to place some of the emergent plants which will also help establish the natural filtration system and maybe even assist a little with removing the tannins. Right now the water is so dark you can only see into it about an inch. I am running heavy carbon- like an ice cream pail full, and lot's of floss. I hope in a month or two it will clear up. If not then I don't know what I will do yet.


----------



## Chad Vossen

frogparty said:


> you can't find fireballs?
> I have a bunch, and my local nursery has more


score! i'll get back to you about this sooner or later. 



Energy said:


> I have started to place some of the emergent plants which will also help establish the natural filtration system and maybe even assist a little with removing the tannins. Right now the water is so dark you can only see into it about an inch. I am running heavy carbon- like an ice cream pail full, and lot's of floss. I hope in a month or two it will clear up. If not then I don't know what I will do yet.



as far as the dark tea colored water, large water changes are your best bet for now, however with all that coco bedding, it may take forever if the land mass keeps leaching tannins into your water feature. the carbon should do a lot, but it'll be interesting if it can keep up.


----------



## Energy

> as far as the dark tea colored water, large water changes are your best bet for now, however with all that coco bedding, it may take forever if the land mass keeps leaching tannins into your water feature. the carbon should do a lot, but it'll be interesting if it can keep up.


yeah- tell me about it. I sure hope the carbon can keep up.



> score! i'll get back to you about this sooner or later.


Do you know of a source?


----------



## frogparty

I have some I could sell... pm me


----------



## Julio

Energy said:


> Swamp tree with 2 coats on.
> 
> Question: Why use unsanded grout versus other concrete products. much of the grout out there contains anti-molding agents. I did use an unsanded grout for my first two coats and then switched to a concrete floor leveling compound for my third coat. This worked better in my opinion and dried within 10 minutes. I am still working on this so I don't know if it will be ok long-term.


Inst this the fmous blue spotted ray tank from RC?


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> Inst this the fmous blue spotted ray tank from RC?


One and the same. Just starting out on a new adventure. So far I haven't missed saltwater at all. How are you familiar with it?- Are a salty by nature?


----------



## Chad Vossen

found a very good website for orchids. i just got done looking through all the miniatures that are for sale. i already have a list, but i figure i'll just order 4-5 of them when the time comes. 

Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Orchid list of miniature orchid plants


my ecoweb sheet arrives on tuesday, and i'll have weds and thursday off. i have a bunch of photos already, but wont post them till its finished


----------



## Julio

Energy said:


> One and the same. Just starting out on a new adventure. So far I haven't missed saltwater at all. How are you familiar with it?- Are a salty by nature?


Yeah, there are quite a few reefers on this board.


----------



## VivariumWorks

As for the tannins, your best bet is to not bother with the carbon yet. The carbon is the only thing thats going to remove it but its going to become saturated too quickly. Your best bet is to run hose water through it for now and flush the system for a week or two. The leaching from the land section will fade and slow down eventually but theres no need to waste your carbon. I'm willing to bet it was saturated in the first 10 minutes honestly. Even with that large volume, its only going to be an effective scrubber if theres a managable low concentration.

What I do with my larger setups is allow it to become dark tea colored, and flush it all out. Then do it again about three times. I'm sure that can be a bit of water for you, but consider that the lower the dissolved salts, particulates, etc there are in the water, the less that will leach out from the ground area. When you flush it and refill it you make the water become an osmotic sink again for the leachate in the ground section. The only quick way I've found is to let it get nasty, then dump it all, rise, repeat. After the first two/three rinse cycles the primary leachate will have become dissolved and then I would put the carbon on it and run medium level water changes every few days until it becomes clear/the color you want. If its as dark as you say, waiting wont help, the carbon is probably useless now, and when you do perform water changes, unless its a large percentage, your just going to keep having this issue.

I say flush it out now. Fill it, and let it run for about a day. Flush it out again, and fill it. Then wait a day and see what the difference is. Keep going until you think your filtration can handle it. Don't bother at this point with the good RO/DI stuff. Its actually ideal to use in this situation as it will have a greater osmotic pull than tap water, but no need for the expense at this point. 

Good luck with it! Were all waiting for the update pics!


----------



## Energy

VivariumWorks said:


> As for the tannins, your best bet is to not bother with the carbon yet. The carbon is the only thing thats going to remove it but its going to become saturated too quickly. Your best bet is to run hose water through it for now and flush the system for a week or two. The leaching from the land section will fade and slow down eventually but theres no need to waste your carbon. I'm willing to bet it was saturated in the first 10 minutes honestly. Even with that large volume, its only going to be an effective scrubber if theres a managable low concentration.
> 
> What I do with my larger setups is allow it to become dark tea colored, and flush it all out. Then do it again about three times. I'm sure that can be a bit of water for you, but consider that the lower the dissolved salts, particulates, etc there are in the water, the less that will leach out from the ground area. When you flush it and refill it you make the water become an osmotic sink again for the leachate in the ground section. The only quick way I've found is to let it get nasty, then dump it all, rise, repeat. After the first two/three rinse cycles the primary leachate will have become dissolved and then I would put the carbon on it and run medium level water changes every few days until it becomes clear/the color you want. If its as dark as you say, waiting wont help, the carbon is probably useless now, and when you do perform water changes, unless its a large percentage, your just going to keep having this issue.
> 
> I say flush it out now. Fill it, and let it run for about a day. Flush it out again, and fill it. Then wait a day and see what the difference is. Keep going until you think your filtration can handle it. Don't bother at this point with the good RO/DI stuff. Its actually ideal to use in this situation as it will have a greater osmotic pull than tap water, but no need for the expense at this point.
> 
> Good luck with it! Were all waiting for the update pics!


Yeah- that's excellent advice- that's probably the best way to handle it. If I do it that way I could actually set up a pretty easy way to add new water continually while I pump it out from the other end.

Why didn't you tell me this yesterday when I had more time? haha
- Thanks again!


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> Yeah, there are quite a few reefers on this board.


Seems to be the best board around for vivarium construction in general/sharing ideas etc.


----------



## Julio

there is a great deal of experienced keeps on here who will offer advice on to best build your viv for the species the you wish to keep.


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## Energy

I started the purging process. After 9 hours the water turned from Chocolate Milk into light tea. Thanks Vivarium works for the suggestion! I think one more solid day will do it. In this picture you can see the siphon hose. What you don't see is a garden hose pumping fresh water back into the sump on the opposite end of the system. 

I also re-arranged the tank to optimize some of the features. Instead of obstructing the main rock I opened up the landscape to highlight this feature.

New broms will be coming in this week from New England Herps.


----------



## Energy

This is the end view of the tank same side from the other picture. This side opens up to a patio door and get's natural light during the day. The siphon tube is more obvious here.


----------



## eos

Damn... I'd love to come home and find that in my house


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## Energy

My post count just hit 100. I went from a junior member to a regular member- I'm all grown up now. ha ha.


----------



## calvinyhob

Energy said:


> My post count just hit 100. I went from a junior member to a regular member- I'm all grown up now. ha ha.


congrates!! lol 

This tank is great cant wait to see what comes next.


----------



## Jellyman

Sorry if I missed it in an earlier post:

Have you decided what type of frogs you plan to keep?


----------



## Energy

Jellyman said:


> Sorry if I missed it in an earlier post:
> 
> Have you decided what type of frogs you plan to keep?


No not yet. I'll save that for later, I want to see how the tank develops in general and then pick a species that will suit the environment I created.


----------



## Energy

Question: I have read that it is not Ok to use RO water in the misting system with PDF. I have heard that it is to pure and will cause an imbalance in the frog's system that will eventually lead to death. Any one have any experience with this? I hesitate to use any other kind of water in the misting system as it will dirty up the viewing panels and clog the heads. Any advice here?

Also what about the plants. If they are getting RO water without any fertilizers how will they thrive? Is there a kind of fertilizer to help the plants that is PDF safe?


----------



## jubjub47

I've always used pure RO water for misting. It just isn't good for the eggs. I've never had a need to fertilize either since the frogs tend to do enough of that with their feces  Nothing to worry about with the RO.


----------



## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> I've always used pure RO water for misting. It just isn't good for the eggs. I've never had a need to fertilize either since the frogs tend to do enough of that with their feces  Nothing to worry about with the RO.


That's good to know.


----------



## Occidentalis

If you don't use the pure RO, you'll get mineral buildup. I've never had/heard of a problem with it and misting.


----------



## carbonetc

I found this photo a while back. I believe it's from the Kew Gardens. Your tank reminded me of it so I thought I'd pass it along for inspiration.

It sounds like you're devoting a lot of attention to terrestrial plants and to aquatic plants, but maybe you could also cover up that slate a bit by adding a boundary of marginal plants. As you can see in this photo, the edge of the water is rarely visible, and I think it makes for a much more natural effect.


----------



## VivariumWorks

Yea I've built quite a few tanks over the years and seen many different things on this forum and I have to say you have the first personal vivarium that I'm actually jelous of. Good job. That setup is down right professional. As in, if someone were to go in and put something similar in, it would be at least 6 grand. Assuming the tank and filtration and lights were there already. Nice job dude! And the natural sun, is going to kick those plants into high gear! Be sure to get some really really good shots of this once its all up and growing, I'm sure Reptiles would love to use them.


----------



## boogsawaste

Energy said:


> This is the end view of the tank same side from the other picture. This side opens up to a patio door and get's natural light during the day. The siphon tube is more obvious here.


If you're worried about seeing the siphon hose you could always cover it up with silicone and coco fiber to make it look like a vine. 

This thing is incredible and I hope to one day build something similar!


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> Question: I have read that it is not Ok to use RO water in the misting system with PDF. I have heard that it is to pure and will cause an imbalance in the frog's system that will eventually lead to death. Any one have any experience with this? I hesitate to use any other kind of water in the misting system as it will dirty up the viewing panels and clog the heads. Any advice here?
> 
> Also what about the plants. If they are getting RO water without any fertilizers how will they thrive? Is there a kind of fertilizer to help the plants that is PDF safe?


Pretty much a myth based on some facts. The myth is that the RO water will "draw out" nutrients from the frog/tad and lead to death. The fact is that through osmosis RO water will attempt to leach nutrients etc from anything it is in contact with. So while osmosis is a proven fact, it is a myth that the process of misting with RO will kill your frogs over time. As far as tads go, pure RO may cause problems but I've never seen any verified results.


----------



## Energy

carbonetc said:


> I found this photo a while back. I believe it's from the Kew Gardens. Your tank reminded me of it so I thought I'd pass it along for inspiration.
> 
> It sounds like you're devoting a lot of attention to terrestrial plants and to aquatic plants, but maybe you could also cover up that slate a bit by adding a boundary of marginal plants. As you can see in this photo, the edge of the water is rarely visible, and I think it makes for a much more natural effect.


That is a really cool picture. I actually plan on using emergent plants for most of the water area and to soften the boundary between the water and land areas.

In fact I am trying to find a cheap price on a bulk amount of Anubias barteri. this will be my emergent plant of choice along the river bank. 

Any one know of a good source for a large amount of this?


----------



## Energy

VivariumWorks said:


> Yea I've built quite a few tanks over the years and seen many different things on this forum and I have to say you have the first personal vivarium that I'm actually jelous of. Good job. That setup is down right professional. As in, if someone were to go in and put something similar in, it would be at least 6 grand. Assuming the tank and filtration and lights were there already. Nice job dude! And the natural sun, is going to kick those plants into high gear! Be sure to get some really really good shots of this once its all up and growing, I'm sure Reptiles would love to use them.


Thanks alot! I appreciate that!


----------



## Energy

boogsawaste said:


> If you're worried about seeing the siphon hose you could always cover it up with silicone and coco fiber to make it look like a vine.
> 
> This thing is incredible and I hope to one day build something similar!


Actually the siphon hose is temporary. I am only using it for the water change. The pump for the regular circulation is well hidden behind the wall right next to it. I am hoping to keep as much of the equipment out of sight as possible to give it the illusion o being a completely natural system.


----------



## Energy

rmelancon said:


> Pretty much a myth based on some facts. The myth is that the RO water will "draw out" nutrients from the frog/tad and lead to death. The fact is that through osmosis RO water will attempt to leach nutrients etc from anything it is in contact with. So while osmosis is a proven fact, it is a myth that the process of misting with RO will kill your frogs over time. As far as tads go, pure RO may cause problems but I've never seen any verified results.


Thanks for the clarification. Now I won't have to worry about giving my frogs a slow torcherous death!


----------



## Energy

Here is a recent picture. I have been having a problem keeping the water clean. I have done probably 4-5 full water changes and still get Murky water the next day. I will keep this up for awhile but if it continues then I am at a loss for a solution. In fact I haven't been able to plant the Anubias along the water's edge due to all the water changes.

Ignore the siphon hose- when (hopefully) I am through with my last in tank water change I will remove this. After that all water changes will take place in the back room through the elevated sump.


----------



## Energy

A few more pictures. The Anubias will actually get planted into the river bank to cover up the rock work. But that will have to wait until the water remains(hopefully) clear.


----------



## Energy

This is how I changed the vent system. I get better air flow with less than half of the electrical use. It is also much quiter- to the point you can't hear them at all. The old system was Very NOISY and took up a lot of room.


----------



## maxdendros

Oh my god that is sooooo sick what are you planning on putting in there frog wise.


----------



## VivariumWorks

What type of underwater substrate did you use? I have had issues where if I didn't rinse it out well, it would cloud up the water. The water looks murky with a white-ish color rather than a tannin brown. This could be either a precipitant forming due to some reaction or tiny particles (colloids) from the underwater substrate. If its a precipitant then there a few ways to fix it, but if its the particles from the sand then you might have to pull it out and rinse it out.

If its a precipitant, there are coaggulating chemicals out there that will help bond to the small suspended solids and form larger aggrigates that can then be pulled out with mechanical filtration. Do you see a white film/residue on your filtration media? If so and the cloudyness is a byprouduct of some rxn, what you can do is get a bunch of the extremely fine white filter floss and wrap it over the intake of a powerhead and submerge it. This way it will pull out the solids fast. Also going back to using RO might help as the reaction is likely due to something in the tap water. Possibly the chlorine bonding with something. The coaggulating chemicals I use are the commonly available aquarium "cloudy water" removers. Problem with these is that they often don't tell you which coagulating agent they are using, often they just say "not for planted aquariums". There are about 4 different coagulent chemcials used for colloid removal.

Al2(SO4)3 Aluminum sulfate 
FeCl3 Ferric Chloride
Ca(OH)3 Hydrated Lime
PO4 Phosphate or other phosphorus compound

Problem with aluminum sulfate is that it builds up aluminum in the system, which is a heavy metal and will often kill plants. Bad.

Ferric chloride isn't too bad as it lowers the pH of the water, but it can do so too much and corrode your pumps... Bad. But it also allows for the often limiting nutrient, Iron, to be available and coupled with a low pH can send your algae/plants into overdrive.

Hydrated lime does the opposite and shoots the pH way high and it removes the phosphate from the water. Very Bad.

The phosphate would work but it will shoot your algae through the roof and it may be bad for your critters. Also I don't think its strait phosphate but something similar that will work. I can't remember which one though...


Sooooo your choices are pretty bad if you don't know which method the company is using. But the good thing is that they all work, and well! So you could just try using the ferric chloride one for a little while and then do a large RO water change and see if that helps, but you have to find a company that makes the stuff to reveal which chemical method they are using. Possibly asking for the MSDS might do it. But I'd avoid the hydrated lime for sure. The aluminum isn't great but if its coupled with good constantly changed mechanical filtration, you might be able to get most of the stuff out the system to prevent aluminum poisoning the plants.

I've used a couple basic unclouding aquarium chemicals before but each time it was for an unplanted aquarium.

Hope this helps.


----------



## jubjub47

It looks to me that running a micron filter or diatom filter would clear up that white haze. It doesn't seem like it has many tannins in it anymore.


----------



## zerelli

Energy said:


> A few more pictures. The Anubias will actually get planted into the river bank to cover up the rock work. But that will have to wait until the water remains(hopefully) clear.


That water will clear up, it looks like a standard becteria bloom. I suspect that if you tested it at that moment it was rather high in ammonia and or nitrite. Give it one week and I bet it is crystal clear.

EDIT: I just saw the picture with the siphon in it, you might have some fine particulates from the sand causing that after all. In my experience it will settle out, but since you plan to add rays that will be stirring it up I suggest you add more mechanical filtration. Get some floss pads and put them where the water empties from the sump. THey will eventually catch out a lot of that but they will need to get an accumulation started in order to get the smaller stuff.


----------



## Jason

Energy said:


> This is how I changed the vent system. I get better air flow with less than half of the electrical use. It is also much quiter- to the point you can't hear them at all. The old system was Very NOISY and took up a lot of room.


One thing to watch with a vent system like this is it can change the parameters (temp, humidity) in the vivarium very fast. This is especially important to watch in the winter months, because the outside air is very low in humidity. When you draw in this outside air in can drastically lower your humidity levels. It may not matter with such a large vivarium with a big surface area of water, but just keep an eye on it. I can't wait to see it in person.


----------



## Energy

Thanks everyone for the helpful suggestions. 

From close-up I believe it is basically a combination of particulate matter and tannins combined. The white that Vivarium works spotted(good eye btw) would be from the continual water changes. I am used to that look and realize that it will clear up over time.

What is troubling is the large amounts of leaching from the substrate. I did not rinse and expected a certain amount- but this is beyond my expectations. I will continue to do water changes as needed for the next month before I give up on it. I have it down now to the point where I suck out the material on the left side of the tank and add fresh water back in at the same time into the elevated sump. It's easy enough to do so I will take this route for awhile. Because I may get a stingray I have also been siphoning out the substrate to remove the excess fine particulate matter to reduce the amount of clouding due to the activities of this animal.


I also have double layers of filter media but really that doesn't seem to be very effective.


----------



## VivariumWorks

Well if you believe it to be primarly from the substrate the quickest and easiest method will be to remove it and wash it out by hand. This would totally suck to do, but in all honesty, if you don't have an effective means of removing that fine of a particuate, your going to have cloudy water forever. As it will settle out, but with water being moved by pumps and the critters it will stir up all the time. Plus if its small SiO2 sand particles, this may not be such a good thing for them to be in.

Good luck! The diatom filter idea I think would be effective so long as you had a large enough one and back flushed it often.


----------



## melas

I would second the idea of completely removing the substrate and washing it outside of the enclosure. You can go to town on it with a hose then or whatever else you want to try! Also - once you have it removed you can see exactly what effect the tannins are having on your water color/quality. This would be a good way to eliminate the substrate as the source of your issues. You might look into a different substrate while you have it out.


----------



## frogparty

agreed, a different substrate may be the best solution perhaps more inorganic material like pumice on the bottom


----------



## Energy

I may end up removing the substrate and rinsing it. Before I go down that road I will continue with the water changes. I will keep my fingers crossed that it will clear up over time with the process I am using.

Sand is the best type of substrate for a stingray to bury itself in without the fear of abrasion. 

Dealing with the Tannins is another issue altogether. How long does it usually take before they stop leaching? With as much substrate I have this may be a losing proposition.


----------



## zerelli

If you are seeing tanins that is easy to fix. You can use either Chemipure for freshwater, or a high quality active carbon such as Marineland's Black Diamond. You need a bituminous coal based carbon, brand is not that important. Tanins can generally be removed with those ChemiPure is the best, probably but it is not very cheap.


----------



## rmelancon

Have you thought of sectioning off the lake with maybe pond liner? Basically have two water sources, one for the ray and one for the "jungle".


----------



## vugger#1

I have done a few (a lot) of fish tanks with sand. Sand box sand, Traction sand, sand right from a lake. First sand right from a lake or a beach is going to cause problems do not use it. The best way I have found to get the cloudy water to go away is to: 1st let it sand settle with no filter it may take a day or so sand is dusty and that needs to float to the top before you try to filter it, 2nd take a fine brine shrimp net and skim the dirty dusty water off the top, 3rd after you have let it settle a day or more start filling and keep filling and siphoning at the same time until the water is clear. Then run your filter. 

I have tanks with 4" of sand and catfish that stir it up all the time and the water is clear. Your stingrays will love it. And if you can kept the stingrays from uprooting plants they will go nuts in the fine sand as well. Plants will grow deep roots in the sand if you give them a month or so before adding the stingrays.

Good luck and great Vivarium keep the pictures coming.


----------



## Energy

I just got my shipment in from New England Herp society. I ordered the four brom pack and boy are they nice. They also threw in three other plants, upsized my fern for free and gave me some springtails! Some of the broms had one to three pups sprouting off from them.


----------



## Energy

I decided to start working on the drip wall. I started to plant the anubias which will be the main focus and fill in with mosses around them. i am not sure of the mosses will survive - but I guess we will see. Riccia or java moss would be an excellent alternative if my native mosses don't make it. so far they are looking good for the most part. I filled in the end with an Umbrella Spike plant. One of the other members who has a lot of nice ripariums used it in his Mexican river biotope and I thought it looked awesome.

I need some creeping vines to cover the back wall and fill in on the left of the drip wall.

Any suggestions?


----------



## frogparty

the mini dutchmans pipe will grow up it, but will only root at the base


----------



## Chad Vossen

if your looking for riccia, you can probably get a large sandwich size bag from the MAS auction later this month. last year i got a quart size bag packed full for 6$

they also have other plants for auction too, including anubias


----------



## Energy

armagedon48 said:


> if your looking for riccia, you can probably get a large sandwich size bag from the MAS auction later this month. last year i got a quart size bag packed full for 6$
> 
> they also have other plants for auction too, including anubias


That would be great- do you have any info on when and where it is?


----------



## Chad Vossen

Energy said:


> That would be great- do you have any info on when and where it is?


Upcoming Events - MAS Fall Auction

UGH, oct 24th... i have a family reunion to go to that day too..... eh.. time to start thinking whats more important i guess...


----------



## Energy

The planting continues. The next step is getting a bunch of emergent plants to place in and along the waters edge. I am trying to trade some of my reef lighting, pumps and equipment to get a bunch of Anubias .


----------



## Energy

Full tank shot


----------



## jubjub47

It's coming along great. Looks like the water is finally clearing up a bit as well.


----------



## Energy

Yeah the water is SLOWLY starting to clear up. I still have to do about a three hundred gallon water change every over day! Haha- but I used to have to do that daily!


----------



## maxdendros

Dang man!!!! I am so jealous of that tank.


----------



## Energy

This is part of the right side or the Hill going down to the waters edge.


----------



## Energy

This is a before shot. I am just trying to learn the process of posting pictures into the link.


----------



## Energy

End shot of the aquarium.


----------



## Julio

by the way, what happened to all th live stock you had in there? my fave were those white cloud ocelaris you had.


----------



## Energy

I am having a problem with the size of the photo's when I upload them to photobucket. All the new pictures turn out to be the size of a thumbnail.


----------



## midget

Energy said:


> Yeah the water is SLOWLY starting to clear up. I still have to do about a three hundred gallon water change every over day! Haha- but I used to have to do that daily!


was it on your reef that you had to do that much and did you have a system with pump or just suction with tubing as this would take forever it sucks doing it for just 7gallons.


----------



## Occidentalis

Energy said:


> I am having a problem with the size of the photo's when I upload them to photobucket. All the new pictures turn out to be the size of a thumbnail.


Under "Upload images & videos" click "More options." You will be able to select the re-sized size you'd like.

Good luck! Love the tank.


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> by the way, what happened to all th live stock you had in there? my fave were those white cloud ocelaris you had.



I sold them all to a couple different pet stores.


----------



## Energy

Occidentalis said:


> Under "Upload images & videos" click "More options." You will be able to select the re-sized size you'd like.
> 
> Good luck! Love the tank.



Done that and it doesn't seem to make a difference.


----------



## Energy

ALL RIGHT! Got the size thing down.


----------



## Energy

Occidentalis said:


> Under "Upload images & videos" click "More options." You will be able to select the re-sized size you'd like.
> 
> Good luck! Love the tank.


You were right- I finally got it- thanks.


----------



## frogparty

lookin great!


----------



## Energy

Full tank shot


----------



## Energy

frogparty said:


> lookin great!


Thanks frogparty!


----------



## jubjub47

I really like the look of the moss on that stump.


----------



## Energy

Picture of one of my favorite vivariums. The owner lives in the Netherlands and helped me out with the construction ideas.


----------



## Energy

Construction photo while he was putting it together.


----------



## Julio

are you still using the halides over the tank or other type of lighting?


----------



## Energy

Another construction photo while he was putting it together. He used Flevepol for all the trees/logs. He let everything cure for weeks and used a heavy duty cloth to absorb the flevepol and wrap the sub structure.


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> are you still using the halides over the tank or other type of lighting?


No now it's all T-5's.


----------



## Julio

how many T5s are you using?


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> how many T5s are you using?



11 of them in different sizes.


----------



## Chad Vossen

looks really good! i'd like to come over and see it when you have it stocked with frogs/ray. just shoot me a PM when your set. 

i just added another photo to my vivarium build thread. its getting there, slowly. getting it painted on monday. 

i wont be able to go to the fish auction. i have to work, and if i get that day off, i have to go to a family reunion instead... last year there was a lot of java moss, anubias, riccia, and other aquatic plants you might be intersted in. as well as drift wood and stuff like that.


----------



## Rick

I may have missed it but...what kind of frogs are you putting in it and how many! Do you plan on putting any fish in the water feature? Awesome tank by the way...certainly amazing. How many hours have you spent just staring at it so far? I have a fairly decent looking nothing special tank and i spend hours staring at it...i would hate to have a beautiful tank! I dont think i would ever be able to stop, especialy since its so big there are so many little details to notice!


----------



## Energy

Do you want me to pick anything up? Also can you give me a link to your build?



armagedon48 said:


> looks really good! i'd like to come over and see it when you have it stocked with frogs/ray. just shoot me a PM when your set.
> 
> i just added another photo to my vivarium build thread. its getting there, slowly. getting it painted on monday.
> 
> i wont be able to go to the fish auction. i have to work, and if i get that day off, i have to go to a family reunion instead... last year there was a lot of java moss, anubias, riccia, and other aquatic plants you might be intersted in. as well as drift wood and stuff like that.


----------



## Energy

I don't know yet. Something unusual for sure as as as the frogs go. I may have a stingray in the water section and some community fish. Got any pictures of your tank?



Rick said:


> I may have missed it but...what kind of frogs are you putting in it and how many! Do you plan on putting any fish in the water feature? Awesome tank by the way...certainly amazing. How many hours have you spent just staring at it so far? I have a fairly decent looking nothing special tank and i spend hours staring at it...i would hate to have a beautiful tank! I dont think i would ever be able to stop, especialy since its so big there are so many little details to notice!


----------



## Energy




----------



## Occidentalis

May have missed it, but how do you already have so much moss growth on the stumps. It looks great!

Glad you got the pictures working well!


----------



## Energy

I have a pretty awesome woods up north that has sphagnum moss and all sorts of neat stuff. I actually yanked that right out of the ground. I realize a lot of people sterilize and clean everything before it goes into their systems but I do not. When I ran a reef I looked for the biodiviersityy and then if a problem came up I focused on balancing the system. I don't care if critters and bugs get in- they turn into a food source. I have already seeded with springtails and found a hitchhiker earthworm and a few spider webs. I also have a colony of minute gnats that are residents. They prefer the vivarium instead of the house so they can stay. When I finally have animals in the system these will also turn into a food source.



Occidentalis said:


> May have missed it, but how do you already have so much moss growth on the stumps. It looks great!
> 
> Glad you got the pictures working well!


----------



## frogparty

I USED to agree with that, but after losing a few frogs, I don't take any more chances.
Viv is coming along fabulously. Can't wait to see soome stingrays in thee. Or maybe even just some butterfly fish


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> ... I don't care if critters and bugs get in- they turn into a food source. I have already seeded with springtails and found a hitchhiker earthworm and a few spider webs. I also have a colony of minute gnats that are residents. They prefer the vivarium instead of the house so they can stay. When I finally have animals in the system these will also turn into a food source.


Just be careful of certain things like wolf spiders and centipedes to name a few. Wolf spiders have been known to take out smaller dart frogs and centipedes can infest and pretty much take over a large vivarium. There is a thread somewhere that shows what centipedes can do. Also if you bring in any type of scale your bromeliads will hate you for it. It looks great by the way, you are going to have a tough time deciding on what frogs to put in there.


----------



## Fishman

The little gnats are most likely fungus gnats. Welcome to the world of wet soil!


----------



## Rick

Energy said:


> I don't know yet. Something unusual for sure as as as the frogs go. I may have a stingray in the water section and some community fish. Got any pictures of your tank?


I actualy have a build thread! 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/44645-20h-construction-journal-leucomelas.html

Im getting ready to post an uptdate. I just re did it and took out some of the uglier plants and added some more moss to the viv, much cleaner look. More creeping fig aswell.


----------



## Energy




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## Energy




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## Julio

this tank is looking sweet!!


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## Jason DeSantis

I was wondering what happened to this thread. Man that looks awesome.
J


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## maxdendros

Nice looking tank man!


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## Chad Vossen

Energy said:


> Do you want me to pick anything up? Also can you give me a link to your build?


the viv im working on is finished as far as the concrete goes. however there are some flaws with the plumbing and some other things. so now im going to rip it all apart and start over from the beginning. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/45393-exoterra-vivarium.html

no worries about picking up anything from the auction. anything im interested in can be found at terrequatics for slightly more $$.


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## Schank

absolutely outstanding


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## Fishman

Is that the new floating fish in the water feature?


Energy said:


>


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## Energy

Fishman said:


> Is that the new floating fish in the water feature?


Haha-- I was wondering who would catch that first! Their is one in one of the other pictures as well.

I think the water section still has a little cycling to go through.


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## Energy




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## Energy




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## frogparty

looking better all the time!


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## maxdendros

I agree with Jason every time I check it keeps getting even better!


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## Energy

Thanks guys! The water is finally staying clear for the most part. It has settled down to a nice tea color which is fine. Now I need to start filling in the water area with marginal plants and do some more landscaping to give it interest.


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## Energy

A few more shots from last week. I am starting to plant the water section slowly.


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## Energy

End shot of the tank.


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## HunterB

i kno this wouldnt work, cause a dart could fall in and i kno this is for a freshwater ray buuuttt....

when i look at this tank, i think, Mata Mata

wouldnt one look cool in here?


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## Energy

HunterB said:


> i kno this wouldnt work, cause a dart could fall in and i kno this is for a freshwater ray buuuttt....
> 
> when i look at this tank, i think, Mata Mata
> 
> wouldnt one look cool in here?


That is a cool idea but of course it would be an issue if I get PDF's. Actually I am not set on PDF's anyway. I like your line of thinking but a Mata mata would destroy the land section everytime it hauls it's shell out of the water. Or are they totally aquatic?


----------



## Energy

I have a stocking Question: Anyone have any suggestions for a unique/cool type of animal for this set up?

I was thinking PDF but am I not set on these. If someone has a different suggestion for a species or type of animal I would appreciate any ideas.

I actually looked into pygmy marmosets, small flightless tropic birds, and chameleons as options. Whatever the centerpiece animal winds up I would stock the rest of it to be compatible.

I'm open to ideas!


----------



## Jason DeSantis

You could put a huge group of mantellas with some pygmy chams. That would be pretty neet and the small brookesia will eat fruit flies. The mantelas do great in large groups.
J


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## HunterB

Energy said:


> That is a cool idea but of course it would be an issue if I get PDF's. Actually I am not set on PDF's anyway. I like your line of thinking but a Mata mata would destroy the land section everytime it hauls it's shell out of the water. Or are they totally aquatic?


i think theyre completly aquatic


----------



## HunterB

Jason DeSantis said:


> You could put a huge group of mantellas with some pygmy chams. That would be pretty neet and the small brookesia will eat fruit flies. The mantelas do great in large groups.
> J


i would not suggest chams at all
theyre slow moving and ive seen many a horry story of them having bad times with water features

im thinking:
reed frogs for at night
day geckos and some kinda dart..mint terribs maybe?
and maybe some kinda water dweeler thats not carnivorus....snake necks? perhaps..


----------



## jubjub47

A Madagascar would be pretty cool. There is a cool abundance of animals that could be stocked for all parts of the day and night. Daytime could have day geckos, mantellas and such and night time could have treefrogs and leaftail geckos. Would give you something to look at 24hrs a day and all within a single region.


----------



## maxdendros

With this size viv you could pretty much do anything you would like, as long as the animals are all from the same general area. Then they would get along better. I agree with the Madagascar theme, I think you could make that pretty intricate and cool. It depends on what you are willing to spend.


----------



## Energy

Great Suggestions:

A few ideas I played with are: pygmy chameleons, PDF's, and a stingray for the water section. 

Madagascar frogs would be pretty awesome as well.

But I am looking for something really wild- off the chain. 

I did consider a pygmy marmoset but after researching realized it would not be appropriate for that animal. 

I also considered a green tree python- what do you think? They probably wouldn't mess with a pdf or stingray right?

Leaf gecko- or a crested one would be really neat as well as a day gecko.

What is a snakehead? Are you referring to the turtle?

What is that frog that holds it babies in holes on it's back?

Fish- this is what I was thinking, pantadon butterfly, elephant nose, black ghost knife, school of neon tetra's and a stingray.

Are there any mudskippers that like softwater/blackwater?

Birds- I consider a small bird or two but they would fly into the acrylic- so it must be flightless.

Would a mata mata work in there?

What else would work?


----------



## jubjub47

I would definitely do a school of tetras, but why waste a tank like that on neons? Go for the glory and get their better cousin the cardinal tetra. Much nicer looking fish.


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## maxdendros

I would not do a green tree python, reasons are they are very aggressive and probably would eat everything else.


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## jubjub47

They keep green tree pythons with leucs at the Dallas World Aquarium in a pretty small enclosure. They may go for flightless birds if you decide to go that route.


----------



## Julio

maxdendros said:


> I would not do a green tree python, reasons are they are very aggressive and probably would eat everything else.


Green tree pythons as well as other snakes can be kept with darts, they do it at many zoos, the only issue is the fecal matter affecting the darts.


----------



## Jason DeSantis

What about mudskippers? Those things are awesome!
J


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## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> They keep green tree pythons with leucs at the Dallas World Aquarium in a pretty small enclosure. They may go for flightless birds if you decide to go that route.


It would for sure eat a flightless bird but do small tropical flightless birds even exist? I've never seen or heard of one.

What about those vampire crabs- they seem pretty cool but as far as crabs go I think they would eat a pdf if they are like fiddler crabs.


----------



## Energy

Jason DeSantis said:


> What about mudskippers? Those things are awesome!
> J


Yeah! but are there tropical ones? Most of them are saltwater brackish right?


----------



## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> I would definitely do a school of tetras, but why waste a tank like that on neons? Go for the glory and get their better cousin the cardinal tetra. Much nicer looking fish.


Cardinals it is! Thanks!


----------



## Energy

maxdendros said:


> I would not do a green tree python, reasons are they are very aggressive and probably would eat everything else.


How aggressive? Can they be handled or do they bite?


----------



## Rick

What about some of the fish on this page? 

Ohio Tropical Fish

They look pretty cool! Especialy the shrimp...those guys are awesome!


----------



## Jason DeSantis

Energy said:


> Yeah! but are there tropical ones? Most of them are saltwater brackish right?


Yes, most of them come from tropical areas of Africa, Madagascar and indonesia. They do prefer brackish or litely salted water but so do alot of amazon type fish. Discus and neon tetras do well in litely salted water.
J


----------



## rollinkansas

Energy said:


> How aggressive? Can they be handled or do they bite?



Captive bred ones and wild caught ones are like completely different species. A CB one can be handled, but they are mostly a look, dont touch snake. They arent really a "friendly" species, and their mouth is full of tiny little razor blades.


----------



## Julio

rollinkansas said:


> Captive bred ones and wild caught ones are like completely different species. A CB one can be handled, but they are mostly a look, dont touch snake. They arent really a "friendly" species, and their mouth is full of tiny little razor blades.


not true at all, there are plenty of captive bred green tree that will tag you as soon as you open the door to their enclosure if you are not careful, captive bred are more calm by far, but certainly not less likely to strike.


----------



## midget

on the mudskippers i really recomend againist they really do suffer when put in slanity too low they would need salanity of around 1.015 which would be too much for a ray if i'm not mistaken and deffently to high for darts if you still plan on having them. vamprire crabs would be a great one if you didn't have a ray they would be fine other wise as they can be kept in full fresh water. i don't belive there are any small tropical flightless birds avabable in the hobby. good luck


----------



## HunterB

America's Largest Selection of Captive Bred Turtle & Tortoise Species

id look through that
and as for the gree tree python, if you got a youngster, handled it often and formed a trust between snake and owner, itll be fine


----------



## Ed

Julio said:


> Green tree pythons as well as other snakes can be kept with darts, they do it at many zoos, the only issue is the fecal matter affecting the darts.



Just a correction here.. Green Tree Pythons (Morelia (Chondrophython) viridis) are not kept in with dart frogs at Zoos.. the snake you are thinking of are Emerald Treeboas (Corallus caninus) which while looking the same is a totally different animals. Only adult Emeralds are amphibian safe but can really do a lot of damage to plants. I haven't read through the thread but in the few I read.. there are a number of suggestions I wouldn't try mixing together... 

Ed


----------



## rihanssu

The green tree pythons are VERY aggressive. doesn't matter if they are captive bred. I had 8 or 9 of them over the years. only 2 were wild caught and they were all mean. an emerald boa is a little nicer but all the arborial boaides are nasty. they MIGHT stay away from the frogs because of the warning colors but i wouldn't do it if the frogs are really spendy


----------



## rihanssu

if you wanted to have a real large boa or python in there then you could keep the frogs as well. big boas and pythons wont touch anything too small. maybe like a big ol' argentine Boa. they are all black with white flecks. usually mean though. call me sometime and i'll give you a run down of good herps that can be handled.


----------



## Occidentalis

rihanssu said:


> if you wanted to have a real large boa or python in there then you could keep the frogs as well. big boas and pythons wont touch anything too small. maybe like a big ol' argentine Boa. they are all black with white flecks. usually mean though. call me sometime and i'll give you a run down of good herps that can be handled.


An occidentalis will make quick work of any and all plants in any tank via crushing. Believe me, I've tried it =)


----------



## frogparty

what about a basilsk?


----------



## pet-teez

If you want any aquatic plants you may want to skip turtles completely, what they don't eat they will pull up/thrash 
Basalisks would be a trip, it would be INSANE to see them run across the water.
I think most snakes would be kind of heavy bodied to leave the plants looking good.
I didn't read through everything so I'm not sure if you have uvb in there, if you have most types of reptiles you'll need uvb & basking.


----------



## Ed

rihanssu said:


> The green tree pythons are VERY aggressive. doesn't matter if they are captive bred. I had 8 or 9 of them over the years. only 2 were wild caught and they were all mean. an emerald boa is a little nicer but all the arborial boaides are nasty. they MIGHT stay away from the frogs because of the warning colors but i wouldn't do it if the frogs are really spendy


It depends on what you consider nasty. I work with three different species of arboral boids (C. caninus, C. hortulanus, and M. viridis) and most of the percieved aggressiveness in all three species is due to conditioned feeding responses (at least when dealing with cb specimens). 

Aggressiveness doesn't mean that they will target the frogs, instread one has to look at the juvenile and adult diets of the species involved. Of the three I work with, the lowest risk to anuran consumption would come from ETBs. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

rihanssu said:


> if you wanted to have a real large boa or python in there then you could keep the frogs as well. big boas and pythons wont touch anything too small. maybe like a big ol' argentine Boa. they are all black with white flecks. usually mean though. call me sometime and i'll give you a run down of good herps that can be handled.


I have seen a 12 foot green anaconda stalk, capture and consume a adult basilisk, I have seen a 12 foot burmese pythons eat gerbils when offered them as a food source... I don't know why you think, that snakes may turn down food items that are too small as this isn't really supported in the literature.. 8 foot black rats and known to consume pink mice... 


Ed


----------



## Energy

Well after hearing all this I'm staying away from any boa -period. The big ones will squash and trash anything nice, the arboreal ones will probably bite me in the side of the head when I am working in the tank. No thanks! That doesn't sound like a fun animal.

Do any of the turtles stay pretty small? I would think though that a pdf would look like a natural food source for almost any turtle.


----------



## Energy

Basilisk can be striking in appearance but get kind of big to be able to run in the tank. They are a really neat looking lizard though.


----------



## melas

Energy said:


> Basilisk can be striking in appearance but get kind of big to be able to run in the tank. They are a really neat looking lizard though.


Look into the Striped Basilisk (Basiliscus vittatus) - They don't get very big (2' tops) and their length is mostly tail. I can tell you that your viv would be PLENTY big for a pair/trio. I'll try to snap a few photos of mine. They are small enough that they wouldn't do much damage to your plants etc. Some of the small epiphytes would need to be anchored well in the case of a basilisk running past/over them!


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## JoshH

Check out Helmeted Iguanas (Corytophanes) and coneheads (Laemanctus longipes) they are both really under appreciated lizards that could do well in a large setup and are not distructive to plantings. Plus they can be kept with larger darts, with caution of course. Both would need some vertical limbs to be happy....very unique...

For the water feature a few Pipa pipa frogs could be neat, those are the ones that embed the eggs in their back.

As for snakes, the Amazon tree boa has been kept with darts in similar conditions many times....


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## Chad Vossen

despite the vivarium being so large, i dont think adding a large reptile is going to be a good idea. 

try looking into Neon blue geckos, on kingsnake.com, you can get them for something like 40$ each. and they breed easily.

also, plain but interesting, anoles! few anoles head bobbing at eachother from each end of the viv would be interesting. 

and there are some other day gecko species that stay small that would be really cool. in a tank that large, they would have territories to defend, instead of always being in eachother's space.


----------



## rollinkansas

I agree some of the caribbean anolis species could look really nice in that setup. Anolis leachi, allisoni, grahami, baracoae, marmoratus, etc the list is endless.

And if you dont mind spending some money you can look into Abronia species.


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## HunterB

why does the snake have to be "big" per se?
why not a smaler tropical snake? mangrove snakes maybe? (not that small, i kno  )

also, if you went with a smaller gecko, you could get a boat load

and i kno we've strayed away from em in this thread, but...

darts haha let em breed in the viv, and youll have alot after awhile...maybe some striking pums? cayo de agua maybe?


----------



## Julio

Ed said:


> Just a correction here.. Green Tree Pythons (Morelia (Chondrophython) viridis) are not kept in with dart frogs at Zoos.. the snake you are thinking of are Emerald Treeboas (Corallus caninus) which while looking the same is a totally different animals. Only adult Emeralds are amphibian safe but can really do a lot of damage to plants. I haven't read through the thread but in the few I read.. there are a number of suggestions I wouldn't try mixing together...
> 
> Ed


Yes Ed, Thanks, not sure why i thought green tree.


----------



## Ed

JoshH said:


> Check out Helmeted Iguanas (Corytophanes) and coneheads (Laemanctus longipes) they are both really under appreciated lizards that could do well in a large setup and are not distructive to plantings. Plus they can be kept with larger darts, with caution of course. Both would need some vertical limbs to be happy....very unique...
> 
> For the water feature a few Pipa pipa frogs could be neat, those are the ones that embed the eggs in their back.
> 
> As for snakes, the Amazon tree boa has been kept with darts in similar conditions many times....


Hey Josh, 
While ATBs have been kept by some people ( and I can only think of one person off hand) with dart frogs, they can't be considered amphibian safe as they are known to eat frogs... In addition the larger adult size is going to play havok with the plants as this species while not as heavy bodied as Emeralds gets to a size sufficient to crush and knock things down. 

Using non-zoogeographically correct animals is going to significantly increase the risk of problems with novel pathogens and parasites (like that seen with Mycoplasm infections in native tortoises, rana and iridioviruses, and potentially enen parasites like lungworms.)

Probably the greatest chance of success is going to be with some of the Norops, Gonatodes and or Spareodactylus geckos for the lizards but it should be noted that the larger species may predate on tadpoles or metamorphs. With respect to the snakes, if the OP can aquire them then snakes of the genus Sibon are a good possibility as they feed on snails ( and should take approprately sized apple snails ( there is even a cool Eyelash viper mimic in that genus...)

Virtually none of the sympatric chelonians with the temporary exception of possibly a baby mata mata (and that will requie the water to be 80 F and a lot of fish as food) are going to work as they will either eat or destroy everything. Pipids in with small fish is just going to result in no fish and a fat toad. 

If the OP


----------



## Ed

Continued from above....

If the OP wants the best chance of sucess then a lot of homework is really going to be needed both in niche requirements as well as availabilty... I also suggest reading through the multispecies enclosure thread...

Ed


----------



## rollinkansas

Ed said:


> Probably the greatest chance of success is going to be with some of the Norops, Gonatodes and or Spareodactylus geckos for the lizards but it should be noted that the larger species may predate on tadpoles or metamorphs.


But many of the sphaerodactylus and gonatodes cant be kept in anything larger than 1.1 pairings, which will severely limit how much you see them. I had a friend who had 2.2 sphaerodactylus torrei in a tank 5x2x2 feet and they worked themselves out to a 1.1, even with so much space for 2 inch long geckos.


----------



## Ed

Most of the time when you population reassortments like that the problem usually falls down to insufficient appropriate niches and/or inappropriate sight barriers allowing for one pair to dominate the local enviroment to the detriment of the rest of the animals...there are a lot of examples of this in the literature... for example look at lot of the work done by Judy Stamps in demonstrating the "Dear Enemy Phenomenon" in tropical Anoline lizards..

In normal groups of many territorial lizards you should see one or more core territories held by resident animals with one or more animals sharing overlapping territories or acting as "floaters" in established territories, if this isn't occuring then one has to go back and look at the niches because there is a high probability that a dominate animal us monopolizing it.

In short what I'm trying to say, is that kind of result should't be considered normal....but we are getting off topic....,

As long as size is taken into account what is preventing the OP from keeping a combination of small Norops and say Sphaerodactylus so they are both low density?

Ed


----------



## rollinkansas

If you are going to keep 1 pair of sphaeros and some non territorial anolis or norops that is one thing. But most sphaeros are territorial no matter how big the enclosure. I know a bunch of keepers of them and none have had luck with (most) species being kept in groups larger than a pair. Some species can be kept in a groups, but most not. Some of the tanks of these guys are spartan and others are heavily planted enclosures. 

But a more basic answer for why I wouldnt put sphaeros in a tank is because most of them will run from you the second you see them. I have seen my sphaero. torrei for a total of like 5 minutes in a year or two because the second I walk into the room, they hide. Most of my others are like that too.

For this tank I think gonatodes would do much better.


----------



## gold3nku5h

I havn't read any of this, but i see that you are, or were, thinking about using a false bottom. I am currently building a paludarium, similar in structure, but way smaller, and have decided to use a divider for the land and water section. I'm sure you have dealt with sump tanks before, and would actually really like to hear you opinions about these, as i need help designing mine. These would be better for large scale tanks because you have access to all the water within the tank, and its more simple to construct and maintain in for the long term if you really think about it. 

If you ever have time to talk about the sump tank and willing, we can PM setups.
A little run-down of the tank; its going to have a waterfall, with 3 drip points and a fog setup running down a stream into a small pond and finally over the last miniature waterfall into a large pond, which is 3/4ths the front and 2/3rds the side, in an L shape (I just figured you say an before any single letter in a sentence) thats so wierd, no you dont a p a q an r an s a t a u a v a w an x a y a z hahahaah.


----------



## Energy

Wow- what a wealth of information! After going over this I think it would be wise to stay away from any large reptiles- snake,turtle or lizard for a few reasons. One: if PDf's are part of the enclosure then any large animal could possibly crush them during normal movement.

With that in mind I think the electric blue day gecko is spectacular combined with a few of the caribbean anoles.

I personally like chameleons. So they may be part of it.

A leaf tailed or a Rhodactis gecko would be interesting.

Red eyed or reed frogs would be great at night.

What about a small snake? Any suggestions that wouldn't eat the frogs or lizards? I looked up the sibon and that's a great idea BUT at $500 they are a bit spendy and I don't eat escargot so I can't justify giving it to a snake!


----------



## Energy

gold3nku5h said:


> (I just figured you say an before any single letter in a sentence) thats so wierd, no you dont a p a q an r an s a t a u a v a w an x a y a z hahahaah.


I have no clue what this means.


----------



## jubjub47

Energy said:


> I have no clue what this means.


haha, I don't think he does either.


----------



## rpmurphey

I think you would be better off without a snake. The only way to keep any snake from eating your smaller reptiles is for the snake to be BIG, so the smaller reptiles wouldn't be an issue until the snake gets realy hungary. But then again it is an animal and if it is hungry it will eat anything that it can to survive. If you are willing to take the risk of your other reptiles then I would do it.


----------



## markbudde

You might want to check out this thread.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/26104-mixed-species-tank.html


----------



## frogparty

with a big animal of ANY KIND you are going to have to get in there and physically clean up a lot of shit. darts, and maybe the anoles and smaller geckos wont require that chore.

something to think about


----------



## Energy

frogparty said:


> with a big animal of ANY KIND you are going to have to get in there and physically clean up a lot of shit. darts, and maybe the anoles and smaller geckos wont require that chore.
> 
> something to think about


Yep- I thought about that and decided it wasn't worth my time. The smaller animals would actually be beneficial in that aspect.


----------



## BChambers

Hmmm-what about an insectivorous snake? I don't see why a Rough Green snake wouldn't do well in your setup. And it would certainly be no threat to your darts...


----------



## frogparty

pretty sure rough greens eat small frogs


----------



## Energy

markbudde said:


> You might want to check out this thread.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/26104-mixed-species-tank.html


Thanks- I read it - interesting but not very informative as far as how that system went. I wonder how it's doing.


----------



## Energy

BChambers said:


> Hmmm-what about an insectivorous snake? I don't see why a Rough Green snake wouldn't do well in your setup. And it would certainly be no threat to your darts...


Well if it stays away from frogs then it would be perfect? A small arboreal snake that stays away from frogs would be ideal.


----------



## frogparty

many arboreal snakes are frog/lizard specialists. There are far fewer small rodents in the canopy than frogs and lizards.


----------



## rpmurphey

With the rough green snake it will sometimes eat small frogs.


----------



## Energy

frogparty said:


> many arboreal snakes are frog/lizard specialists. There are far fewer small rodents in the canopy than frogs and lizards.



True but everything I have read so far on the rough green snake says it eats grasshoppers and spiders. If I get a snake something like this one would be the way to go. They stay small, are slender bodied and active during the day. 

One thing though would be a pygmy chameleon would be considered a prey item for a rough green snake.


----------



## Energy

rpmurphey said:


> With the rough green snake it will sometimes eat small frogs.


If this is true than I couldn't have it. It makes sense that small frogs would be on the prey list possibility.


----------



## JoshH

If you want to try some of the rarer Anolis species, the following species come from rainforested areas and can handle the high humidity a bit better. They are sometimes hard to locate and pricy though...

Anolis bahorucoensis
Anolis marmoratus alliaceus
Anolis sabanus
Anolis roquet summus
Anolis oculatus montanus

A friend of mine does well keeping and breeding A. garmani in a heavily misted rainforest setup, but they are big enough to eat frogs.


----------



## Ed

rollinkansas said:


> But most sphaeros are territorial no matter how big the enclosure. I know a bunch of keepers of them and none have had luck with (most) species being kept in groups larger than a pair. Some species can be kept in a groups, but most not. Some of the tanks of these guys are spartan and others are heavily planted enclosures.


Given that in the wild, many sphaerodactylus are found in very high densities, this brings us back to the idea that there may be a problem with the husbandry....

With respect to the comment on spartan and heavily planted tanks.. neither of those addresses appropriates niches.. this is a real common mistake (people equate heavily planted/decorated as supplying multiple appropriate niches) when people are attempting to set up enclosures for multiples of any species. You have to look at the specific resource (food, thermoregulation, mate availability, egg deposition sites) that the animals need and set up the enclosure so that these are all available with sight barriers between the areas otherwise a pair or even a single animal can monopolize them to the detriment of the others... 




rollinkansas said:


> But a more basic answer for why I wouldnt put sphaeros in a tank is because most of them will run from you the second you see them. I have seen my sphaero. torrei for a total of like 5 minutes in a year or two because the second I walk into the room, they hide. Most of my others are like that too.
> 
> For this tank I think gonatodes would do much better.



I agree that Gonatodes are probably a better choice.


----------



## Ed

gold3nku5h said:


> I havn't read any of this, but i see that you are, or were, thinking about using a false bottom. I am currently building a paludarium, similar in structure, but way smaller, and have decided to use a divider for the land and water section. .


If you are dividing the land and water then you need a way to let the excess water drain otherwise the land area will turn into a swamp at some point... 

Ed


----------



## frogparty

I used to have a rough greensnake, and it DEFINITELY ate frogs because (and I was very young mind you) I used to feed it small peepers.
Look at it this way, it doesnt hunt by heat or smell, sight only. SMALL MOVEMENT IS SMALL MOVEMNT


----------



## Ed

rpmurphey said:


> I think you would be better off without a snake. The only way to keep any snake from eating your smaller reptiles is for the snake to be BIG, so the smaller reptiles wouldn't be an issue until the snake gets realy hungary. But then again it is an animal and if it is hungry it will eat anything that it can to survive. If you are willing to take the risk of your other reptiles then I would do it.


Actually this isn't supported.. big snakes will still eat small prey. The only way to resolve the issue is to choice diet specialists that are not part of the cage fauna. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

markbudde said:


> You might want to check out this thread.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/26104-mixed-species-tank.html


I would actually like to see him read through http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html as there is still a lot of incorrect zoogeographic recommendations.. 


Ed


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## midget

this be a great tank for mixing but i would try and keep it in one location. Such as l.williams are from tanzia so are pygmy chams and other really cool reptiles so it probly be best to keep it in one region as they would have the most silmar enviorment. Good luck


----------



## Ed

rpmurphey said:


> With the rough green snake it will sometimes eat small frogs.


Since when? 

They are insectivore diet specialists.. and are actually hard to keep going long term in captivity. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> I used to have a rough greensnake, and it DEFINITELY ate frogs because (and I was very young mind you) I used to feed it small peepers.
> Look at it this way, it doesnt hunt by heat or smell, sight only. SMALL MOVEMENT IS SMALL MOVEMNT


It does hunt by scent... and not only by movment... 

And are you sure you had Opheodrys aestivus and not say Philothamnus natalensis which has been sold off and on in the pet trade as green snake??? 

Ed


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## midget

on the rought green snake i would still avoid as a natural instent(sp) of lizards would to be avoid the snake in turn would more then likely cause unneed stress. Good luck


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## frogparty

pretty sure, I caught t wild when I was a kid in Tennssee


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## rpmurphey

Ed said:


> Actually this isn't supported.. big snakes will still eat small prey. The only way to resolve the issue is to choice diet specialists that are not part of the cage fauna.
> 
> Ed


You are correct about that but like I said, *"But then again it is an animal and if it is hungry it will eat anything"* I was implying that it is easer to control the diet of a bigger snake than it is a smaller snake _that is living with their prey_ due to big snake = bigger food and small snake = smaller food, generally speaking. That is not the rule of thumb though and an animal when it is hungry will eat small prey. 

I guess in the future I am going to have to spell everything out instead of assuming that people know what I'm talking about, eventhough that they have experiance in that particular field.


----------



## rpmurphey

Ed said:


> Since when?
> 
> They are insectivore diet specialists.. and are actually hard to keep going long term in captivity.
> 
> Ed


These are some snakes that I am looking into for a breeding project. I have done my reseach over the past few months. I take the scources as a suggestion but I have found more than one place that says the same thing.


scource of proof if you like to see it then here are some website for you to look at.

Rough Green Snake - Bay Field Guide - Chesapeake Bay Program

Opheodrys aestivus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rough Green Snake | Opheodrys aestivus | Reptile


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## BChambers

I've kept rough greens on several occasions-sometimes with both anoles and green treefrogs. No casualties among these cagemates, ever. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if some populations might differ somewhat in dietary preferences.


----------



## Ed

*Re: Large Vivarium questions OT*

Offtopic




rpmurphey said:


> You are correct about that but like I said, *"But then again it is an animal and if it is hungry it will eat anything"* I was implying that it is easer to control the diet of a bigger snake than it is a smaller snake _that is living with their prey_ due to big snake = bigger food and small snake = smaller food, generally speaking. That is not the rule of thumb though and an animal when it is hungry will eat small prey.
> 
> I guess in the future I am going to have to spell everything out instead of assuming that people know what I'm talking about, eventhough that they have experiance in that particular field.





rpmurphey said:


> I think you would be better off without a snake. The only way to keep any snake from eating your smaller reptiles is for the snake to be BIG, so the smaller reptiles wouldn't be an issue until the snake gets realy hungary. But then again it is an animal and if it is hungry it will eat anything that it can to survive. If you are willing to take the risk of your other reptiles then I would do it.


Lets compare the two paragraphs together.. In the second paragraph, there is a flat statement on how to prevent the larger from consuming the smaller.. it is a statement that the "only way to prevent...". The only implication is that if it is really hungry then it might eat the smaller animals... not the reverse that you are asserting to in the response.. 
You don't have to spell it out provided that you are clear on the first post. 

If you are referring to my experience in that field..then you should wonder why someone with over 30 years of herp keeping, and getting close to 20 years working fulltime in a Herp Department in Zoo didn't "understand".....


----------



## Ed

rpmurphey said:


> These are some snakes that I am looking into for a breeding project. I have done my reseach over the past few months. I take the scources as a suggestion but I have found more than one place that says the same thing.
> 
> 
> scource of proof if you like to see it then here are some website for you to look at.
> 
> Rough Green Snake - Bay Field Guide - Chesapeake Bay Program
> 
> Opheodrys aestivus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Rough Green Snake | Opheodrys aestivus | Reptile


I would take those references as the aberration in the diet... kind of like finding a wild caught scarlet snake that takes pinkies right away (those are recorded in thier diet as well...) (See Conant and Collins (if I remember correctly off hand..) and I woud really look at more updated references for the diet of Rough Greens... 
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 

IngentaConnect Elevated tongue-flicking rate to cricket surface chemicals by the... 

This genus of snakes is difficult to maintain for a number of reasons but one of the main reason is that it needs to be fed frequently (multiple times a week) unlike many other snakes which can be fed one larger meal at longer durations. Virtually all of the ones that can be aquired in captivity have been fed (and housed) under suboptimal conditions for this genus and have a very poor survival rate post six months in captivity. 
When considering this species for a breeding project, the offspring dehydrate readily in addition to needing to be fed on a daily basis. 
If one can get healthy deparasitized animals and they are set up and maintained properly they can be kept well for a number of years but appear to have a shorter life span than comparable colubrids (like Thamnophis species).. 

Ed


----------



## rmelancon

After reading through a bunch of the suggestions, I actually think your best bet is still dart frog(s) and the freshwater ray. You could maybe have a small phelsuma species as well. Probably your best display animal (PDF) that could be kept in a group would be terribilis. If you are looking to do multiple species I'd go with one form of pumilio (with all the bromeliads it would be a shame not to go with an egg feeder) and one type of auratus. Both from Panama. You would not be able to do large numbers like you could with terribilis but I think you could do a small group of each. Another option I would try would be reticulatus and an imitator type (both from Peru). Reticulatus are pretty much terrestrial and the imitators would utilize the "upper" portions. As far as how many... although they are small they are still pretty territorial. I'd have to think on that. If I had a group of reticulatus that were raised together I'd do as many as a dozen in that size enclosure. Another option would be a type of tinctorious and possibly a thumbnail/imitator type, though I'm not sure which imitator type would be found with tincs. There are a lot of opinions on mixing darts and a lot of negative attitudes towards mixing. I look at your setup as a "zoo type" display. I think as long as you don't mix darts that can interbreed, you are selective in the types and numbers, and you keep an eye on things, I personally don't have a problem with it. It's not a popular opinion but I think it can be done responsibly. Just remeber, as large as that enclosure is, it's still small compared to your back yard, which is small compared to the rainforest where they live. One thing I considered in my choices and you will want to look into further is trying to find morphs which are not considered shy. There are many auratus morphs which are notoriously shy so if you go that route, ask around and try to find one of the more bold morphs.

Just my thoughts and opinions...


----------



## Energy

Ed said:


> I would take those references as the aberration in the diet... kind of like finding a wild caught scarlet snake that takes pinkies right away (those are recorded in thier diet as well...) (See Conant and Collins (if I remember correctly off hand..) and I woud really look at more updated references for the diet of Rough Greens...
> JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> 
> IngentaConnect Elevated tongue-flicking rate to cricket surface chemicals by the...
> 
> This genus of snakes is difficult to maintain for a number of reasons but one of the main reason is that it needs to be fed frequently (multiple times a week) unlike many other snakes which can be fed one larger meal at longer durations. Virtually all of the ones that can be aquired in captivity have been fed (and housed) under suboptimal conditions for this genus and have a very poor survival rate post six months in captivity.
> When considering this species for a breeding project, the offspring dehydrate readily in addition to needing to be fed on a daily basis.
> If one can get healthy deparasitized animals and they are set up and maintained properly they can be kept well for a number of years but appear to have a shorter life span than comparable colubrids (like Thamnophis species)..
> 
> Ed


Well great. So does it eat frogs or not. The studies show it doesn't but then we have people on here who have first hand experience with them eating tree frogs.

I think the way this system is set-up would be a great habitat for one.


----------



## Energy

rmelancon said:


> After reading through a bunch of the suggestions, I actually think your best bet is still dart frog(s) and the freshwater ray. You could maybe have a small phelsuma species as well. Probably your best display animal (PDF) that could be kept in a group would be terribilis. If you are looking to do multiple species I'd go with one form of pumilio (with all the bromeliads it would be a shame not to go with an egg feeder) and one type of auratus. Both from Panama. You would not be able to do large numbers like you could with terribilis but I think you could do a small group of each. Another option I would try would be reticulatus and an imitator type (both from Peru). Reticulatus are pretty much terrestrial and the imitators would utilize the "upper" portions. As far as how many... although they are small they are still pretty territorial. I'd have to think on that. If I had a group of reticulatus that were raised together I'd do as many as a dozen in that size enclosure. Another option would be a type of tinctorious and possibly a thumbnail/imitator type, though I'm not sure which imitator type would be found with tincs. There are a lot of opinions on mixing darts and a lot of negative attitudes towards mixing. I look at your setup as a "zoo type" display. I think as long as you don't mix darts that can interbreed, you are selective in the types and numbers, and you keep an eye on things, I personally don't have a problem with it. It's not a popular opinion but I think it can be done responsibly. Just remeber, as large as that enclosure is, it's still small compared to your back yard, which is small compared to the rainforest where they live. One thing I considered in my choices and you will want to look into further is trying to find morphs which are not considered shy. There are many auratus morphs which are notoriously shy so if you go that route, ask around and try to find one of the more bold morphs.
> 
> Just my thoughts and opinions...



AHA- since you brought it up(I wasn't brave enough) I wanted to ask this question. I wanted to mix frogs(and planned on doing it without talking about it anyway) and was thinking along the lines you suggested. An arboreal species and a terrestrial style should be fine together with little interference.

SOOO People- IF(not saying you would BUT...) you were going to mix frogs and wanted something bold and showy together - what would it be? and why? I need your opinions and advice on this.


Please consider this- I have a large portion of the water section easily segregated in case whatever species I get decides to deposit tads in it. I can divided off the stingray lake and keep the tads on the other side so I won't have to worry about predation. I wouldn't mind rearing babies if possible in the system.


----------



## frogparty

Well, I personally would go with a nice big group of leucs , then something like vents or imis. 
I know that leucs like to climb, but they are still on ground level more often than not. Imis or vents are cheap enough that you could get a nice sized group of them too. And, with all those broms you would have plenty of rearing ares for tads that werent the pond, so there would be little chance of them depositing tads in it 

If leucs aernt your thing, then Id say auratus, aurotaenia, or a couple pairs of tincs. I think with a viv that sized, and planted that well, with all those visual barriers, you could easily get away with 2 or 3 pairs at least. 

I would say bicolor or terribilis, but I would think a big terribilis could eat a newly oow thumbnail. 

If you wanted to go big $$$$$$$$ then you could get some pumilio in as the smaller frog, and auratus as the bigger, and get the whole costa rica/panama thing going.


----------



## melas

I would 2nd the Leucs . . . very bold, large, brightly colored with high contrast, and they have a great call. They are also very easy to keep and breed and also do well in groups. These would be easily spotted, even in such a large enclosure.

If you didn't like the Leucs - the Terribilis (orange or yellow) would be another bright colored frog with a great call. These guys are VERY outgoing and will actually approach the glass when you walk up to it in hopes of some food! I've seen them actually try to grab fingers through the glass! True they may potentially grab a thumbnail froglet but it doesn't sound like you are super serious about breeding your inhabitants???

For the small frogs I'd recommend some Basitmentos Pumilio - they are brightly colored and VERY bold for pumilio. They also have a neat call and will call all day long. 

No matter what you choose make sure they are animals that are of interest to you. 

Also - I think all of the advice that Robb gave you above is spot on . . .


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> ...
> Please consider this- I have a large portion of the water section easily segregated in case whatever species I get decides to deposit tads in it. I can divided off the stingray lake and keep the tads on the other side so I won't have to worry about predation. I wouldn't mind rearing babies if possible in the system.


With egg-feeders, obligate or not, they will likely choose bromeliads over open water. With non egg feeders, they will be more prone to depositing in open water.


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## frogparty

perhaps some "tree hole" type deposition areas in the land section would encourage them to deposit there and not the pond


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## Ed

Energy said:


> Well great. So does it eat frogs or not. The studies show it doesn't but then we have people on here who have first hand experience with them eating tree frogs.
> 
> I think the way this system is set-up would be a great habitat for one.


I think it is going to have problems with the excess humidity, lack of air movement and lack of sufficient dry areas.. 

Ed


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## Energy

Ed said:


> I think it is going to have problems with the excess humidity, lack of air movement and lack of sufficient dry areas..
> 
> Ed


Plenty of air movement. I have a few fans pumping fresh air in 12 hours a day. But... there isn't to many dry area's so you may be right. Humidity isn't to high because of the air movement but the misters come on 5 times a day so the system stays evenly moist consistently.


----------



## Ed

Energy said:


> Plenty of air movement. I have a few fans pumping fresh air in 12 hours a day. But... there isn't to many dry area's so you may be right. Humidity isn't to high because of the air movement but the misters come on 5 times a day so the system stays evenly moist consistently.


I should have been clearer with respect to the air movement, I was referring to air movement that would allow areas to dry out. Simple air movement is not necessarily going to change the actual humidity in an enclosure as if the water hasn't anywhere else to go then the humidity is going to remain very high (you would beed to be venting the air from the tank). Running the misters five times a day is going to make it more difficult to reduce the humidity and the moisture content sufficiently to allow for something like Opheodryas to be able to get into the proper niches as needed. 

With respect to pretty much everything but the frogs, this plan for a multispecies system is really not the optimum way to choose how to set it up. You need to choose the species you are placing in the system and then design the appropriate niches habitats for them into the system and then get an idea on the holding density of those niches. This method is the one that tends to cause a lot of people to go through a lot of species before they find the ones that "work". 

Multispecies enclosures can be done and done well in many different sized enclosures but needs to have very specific planning towards the eventual inhabitents. 

If you didn't read it check out the multispecies thread I linked a few posts back... It is a discussion on exactly what you are trying to do here. 

Ed


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## Ed

melas said:


> For the small frogs I'd recommend some Basitmentos Pumilio - they are brightly colored and VERY bold for pumilio. They also have a neat call and will call all day long.
> .


Pumilio are reported to attack other dendrobatid like frogs in territorial disputes. 

Ed


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## jubjub47

There is a video on youtube of a pumilio attacking an auratus in the wild.


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## rmelancon

Ed said:


> Pumilio are reported to attack other dendrobatid like frogs in territorial disputes.
> 
> Ed


I've seen pictures of pumilio wrestling tinctorious, obviously in a captive environment. One of my suggestions was pumilio and auratus as they are both found in Panama and with a small number of animals I would think they could escape each other. In a small environment there would be disputes but wondering how close in proximity would you find auratus and pumilio in the same biotype in the wild?


----------



## Ed

rmelancon said:


> I've seen pictures of pumilio wrestling tinctorious, obviously in a captive environment. One of my suggestions was pumilio and auratus as they are both found in Panama and with a small number of animals I would think they could escape each other. In a small environment there would be disputes but wondering how close in proximity would you find auratus and pumilio in the same biotype in the wild?


Hi Robb,

Chuck Powell can give you better first hand observations on pumilio and tinctorius interactions in captivity than I can.. I was just quoting him from a different post. 

From what I understand that the two can be found in fairly close proximity in the wild.. but depending on the drive to defend resources in male pumilio (bromeliads and calling sites) you can get a problem in a "closed" resource limited enviroment like a terraria. This is where it can get tricky when attempting to combine species with a similar body shape and behavior as depending on the territoriality of the animal involved these may be recognized as intruders (particuarly since we are dealing with a polymorphic species) and further issues can result from a failure on the part of one to recognize submission signals and/or a failure on the part of the other one to recognize territorial warnings. 

This is why it is often much much easier to work with animals with dissimilar body shapes/colors and behaviors as the chance of triggering a territorial response is so much lower. 

It could in theory work in an enclosure of that size but it would require a lot of detailed planning for location, distances and density of resources (calling perches, appropriate bromeliads and egg deposition sights) to reduce the overlap of the two species as pumilio can be pretty aggressive in territorial defense. 

Ed


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## Energy

Ed said:


> With respect to pretty much everything but the frogs, this plan for a multispecies system is really not the optimum way to choose how to set it up. You need to choose the species you are placing in the system and then design the appropriate niches habitats for them into the system and then get an idea on the holding density of those niches. This method is the one that tends to cause a lot of people to go through a lot of species before they find the ones that "work".
> 
> Multispecies enclosures can be done and done well in many different sized enclosures but needs to have very specific planning towards the eventual inhabitents.
> 
> Ed


Good point- that is why I am asking for opinions. At this juncture- nothing lives in it (except for plants). I want to choose a list of inhabitants and then finish creating the appropriate environment for them.

At this time I can modify the watering schedule, temp, etc etc without harming much. I wouldn't be as comfortable doing that with acclimated animals.

In fact I haven't even finished the planting and scaping portion yet. If I go with more aboreal species then I need more branches and elevated surfaces.

If I include a rough green snake then I will need a basking spot dedicated for the snake and from what I have learned here- less humidity. 

This is what makes this forum great- the wealth and SHARING of knowledge to make this successful- not for just this tank but all of our systems. 

Keep it coming.


----------



## Chad Vossen

just to throw another stick into the green snake eating frogs "fire"... i've had a rough green snake for over a year, at one point i did feed it a little frog. it also ate crickets that i held out with my fingers. 

i since sold it, and it died two months later... bummer. 


moving on...


i still think a group of neon blue geckos, some anoles, and a few species of dartfrogs would make an interesting display. then skip the big fish, and do cardinals and rummynose tetras.


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## pet-teez

_I'm trying to find more info on Cnemidophorus lemmiscatus to see how they would work in there with some other critters from the region...
The __Ameiva ameiva are neat too. Both of those should have basking/uvb though, which wouldn't be hard to rig into one area of that setup...
Those are south American... for fish you could get coryadorus and a school or two of something small and some rams for the water area...

If you didn't mind your plants in the water getting disturbed and do like turtles... softshell turtles are interesting. If you went for a full asian setup you could look into __Draco Maculatus but last I heard (years and years ago) they weren't doing well in captivity for a lot of people. Would be a trip for sure in your setup though. hehe
There are also a number of lacertas and agamas that could work in an asian setup... and loads of awesome fish.

If it were me I would either go south/central american or madagascar 
_


----------



## frogparty

Im still hoping you stick with the darts! Ill bet you could get a killer deal on a BIG group of leucs from someone here on the board who had like... a dozen or so to sell. The way its set up now, there would be all kinds of calling spots, and theres lots of prime egg laying sites(mine use their broms over 80 pct of time tme for egg deposition) Once those are settled in, observe where they AERNT and find another frog(or gecko) that you think will most effectvely use that space.


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## markbudde

Also, if you start with a normal sized group of adults, you will have a huge group in no time. 
-Mark


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## Energy

Started to plant the water section. This is the stream between the two end lakes. The water is finally staying somewhat clear. It still has an opaque tea like color- but I can live with that. At least it is clear enough to see into!


----------



## Energy




----------



## Energy




----------



## Energy

Last one for now-


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## Energy

armagedon48 said:


> i still think a group of neon blue geckos, some anoles, and a few species of dartfrogs would make an interesting display. then skip the big fish, and do cardinals and rummynose tetras.


That is the path I am leaning towards, but with a stingray. I would pick up a few of the "tropical" anoles listed earlier just to be different.



What would be a good Chameleon for this type of system. Would a Jackson's be a suitable fit?


----------



## BChambers

Actually, a "dwarf" three-horned chameleon (fuelleborni) might be a good choice-too small to be much danger to the dart frogs, and thrives at cooler temps than some other chams. Another possibility is C. montium (another cool-temp species). Both would still need a UV source.

I definitely like the idea of a large group of leucomelas-bold, gorgeous colors and beautiful song as well!


----------



## maxdendros

What moss is that growing everywhere in that cage?


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## Energy

maxdendros said:


> What moss is that growing everywhere in that cage?



Mostly native stuff picked from the local Woods in Minnesota.


----------



## Energy

BChambers said:


> Actually, a "dwarf" three-horned chameleon (fuelleborni) might be a good choice-too small to be much danger to the dart frogs, and thrives at cooler temps than some other chams. Another possibility is C. montium (another cool-temp species). Both would still need a UV source.


What is the benefit to a "cooler" temp species and what is the range of temperatures that this animal would need. The water in the system is heated to between 77-78 F on average so the system doesn't have much for a temperature differential. Night and day stay pretty much the same. I know many animals benefit from a night time drop in temperature and the best I could do is keep a fan going to get some of the chillier night air in but still that doesn't amount to much.

What about a pygmy chameleon? Would that be a good choice?


----------



## BChambers

That might be a bit of a problem-most chameleons-particularly montane species-benefit from a substantial nighttime temperature drop. I recommended a cooler-temp species because of the temperature requirements of dart frogs-which of course mostly prefer temps no higher than the low 80s, and preferably the 70s.

I've never personally kept Brookesia or Rhampholeon (dwarf leaf chams), but I believe they have similar preferences to larger species found within their range.


----------



## HunterB

BChambers said:


> That might be a bit of a problem-most chameleons-particularly montane species-benefit from a substantial nighttime temperature drop. I recommended a cooler-temp species because of the temperature requirements of dart frogs-which of course mostly prefer temps no higher than the low 80s, and preferably the 70s.
> 
> I've never personally kept Brookesia or Rhampholeon (dwarf leaf chams), but I believe they have similar preferences to larger species found within their range.


i kept pygmy chams for while and they do enjoy their nighttime drop IME
also, i honestly wouldnt put chams in here, from everything ive ever heard, they dont hav good track records with water...too slow i gues..


----------



## fleshfrombone

I bet your saltwater tank was popular on monster fish keepers as well.


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## Energy

fleshfrombone said:


> I bet your saltwater tank was popular on monster fish keepers as well.



I never really went to that site- so I don't know.


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## Energy

From what I have read it seems that Uroplatus phantasticus would be a good fit for my system and an interesting specimen. Does anyone know a place to get these?


----------



## pet-teez

I'm not sure if anyone here breeds them but if not you might find them here
I love those guys, leaf tail geckos are super awesome... eventually I'll try my hand at keeping them.
I'm now reminded that I miss having flying geckos 



Energy said:


> From what I have read it seems that Uroplatus phantasticus would be a good fit for my system and an interesting specimen. Does anyone know a place to get these?


----------



## frogparty

uroplatus are AWESOME. I personally like the fimbriatus and the lined. Seems they also like mid 70s temp and 70s humidity. But I have never kept one, just read a bit about them 

dont ever want to breed roaches though.....or crickets for that matter...yuck


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## rpmurphey

phantasticus and malama are going to be your hardest to keep out of the Uroplatus only because most of the ones you can get are WC. My buddy RyanEthan (forum name/ should pm him ryanethan) had three phantasticus die on him, now he has two malamas and they seem to be healther. Plus the malama are bigger thn the phantasticus. I was going to mention those guys as well. I think they would do quite well in your tank.

They tend to stay in an area about 2 meters up and they hunt on the ground sometimes. I would be worried about the water with these guys only because not much information is given on how to keep these guys. I know that there is one book you can get on amazon about these guys but it's about $120 +/- $20

They are realy cool to watch because when they hunt, they hange upsidedown and then lunge at their food from above.

where to find these guys are at geckosunlimited.com forum. They are pricey range from 100 for phantasticus and 200 for malama(on the endangered list) People in Florida have them. From Florida to Phoenix for 1.1.0 plus shipping $450


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## Energy

pet-teez said:


> I'm not sure if anyone here breeds them but if not you might find them here
> I love those guys, leaf tail geckos are super awesome... eventually I'll try my hand at keeping them.
> I'm now reminded that I miss having flying geckos


Thanks for the lead. Seems like they have quite a bit of hard to acquire animals. Any experience with this vendor?


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## keith w

I made a order with them friday for 5 frog and all came in alive.


----------



## rpmurphey

LLL Reptile is where I got my Aehatulla prasina but they were WC, just ask them if they are or not and they will tell you if they are or not. My buddy has been going to the since he was 16 and he has only good things to say about them.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Have you made a decision on a species for the water area? Perhaps some for of aquatic newt or salamander, apologies if these have been metioned already.


----------



## jubjub47

Energy said:


> Thanks for the lead. Seems like they have quite a bit of hard to acquire animals. Any experience with this vendor?


Talk with Zach Brinks about finding some of these guys. He keeps and breeds almost every species of Uroplatus. Forum name is ZBrinks.


----------



## Energy

Morgan Freeman said:


> Have you made a decision on a species for the water area? Perhaps some for of aquatic newt or salamander, apologies if these have been metioned already.



No- any suggestions? Something that can be kept safely with a stingray and some community fish.


----------



## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> Talk with Zach Brinks about finding some of these guys. He keeps and breeds almost every species of Uroplatus. Forum name is ZBrinks.


Thanks- I sent him a pm.


----------



## BChambers

Morgan Freeman said:


> Have you made a decision on a species for the water area? Perhaps some for of aquatic newt or salamander, apologies if these have been metioned already.


Any species I can think of offhand would require MUCH colder conditions-with the possible exception of bolitiglossa, but those are terrestrial (besides being so secretive they would literally NEVER be seen)....


----------



## harrywitmore

Well, this was a very entertaining read. Very nice project indeed. From a plant perspective I don't see much in there that is very compelling to me. I think much of the moss will have some pretty significant die off as time goes by. You have space for some wonderful epiphytes such as Hydnophytum, Myrmecodia, Lecanopteris and the list goes on and on as well as Nepenthes. But it looks like you have used only the most common. 

The are a number of awesome Gesneriads that would love you area. Since you don't seem to be trying to do a biotype, you could try most anything. I would like to see some small creepers in there such as Ferns and Peperomia. You could also add some awesome aroids.

As for a Rough Green Snake. I agree with Ed. These snakes are temperate and high humidity would most likely cause them severe skin problems. I would stay away from snakes in general. It also seems to me turtles would foul the water if it had any size to it.

But, I would love to sit in front of this every night!


----------



## Energy

harrywitmore said:


> Well, this was a very entertaining read. Very nice project indeed. From a plant perspective I don't see much in there that is very compelling to me. I think much of the moss will have some pretty significant die off as time goes by. You have space for some wonderful epiphytes such as Hydnophytum, Myrmecodia, Lecanopteris and the list goes on and on as well as Nepenthes. But it looks like you have used only the most common.
> 
> The are a number of awesome Gesneriads that would love you area. Since you don't seem to be trying to do a biotype, you could try most anything. I would like to see some small creepers in there such as Ferns and Peperomia. You could also add some awesome aroids.
> 
> As for a Rough Green Snake. I agree with Ed. These snakes are temperate and high humidity would most likely cause them severe skin problems. I would stay away from snakes in general. It also seems to me turtles would foul the water if it had any size to it.
> 
> But, I would love to sit in front of this every night!


I think the moss will be fine, I checked with the Mississippi Biological Society and they said it will grow year round. I have seeded with a tropical species just in case. I have a lot of different local mosses so the strong will prevail.

As far as the other plants- your right- nothing special yet. I am a coral guy and just getting used to taking care of plants. As I get more experience I will acquire more specialized plants. Until then I don't want to kill anything.

All snake are out of the picture at this point and turtles as well -exactly for the reasons stated.


----------



## frogparty

Theres always time to add more  always room to squeeze some more epiphytes into there


----------



## pygmypiranha

Energy said:


> No- any suggestions? Something that can be kept safely with a stingray and some community fish.


Well, if the stingrays aren't that aggressive... I guess anything can work, but I have read they can attack smaller fish. My thought of a cool looking fish would be the Arowana. It's an Amazon fish. Not sure on a breeder tho. They are pretty unique and can certainly turn some heads. Or if you wanted another cool looking fish might be the knife fish.

The sting rays are certainly amazing looking, but these two fish ideas would certainly be exceptional as well. I was thinking of suggesting the electric eel, but that could cause issues... or would they?


----------



## jubjub47

Arowana will eat whatever it can see on land. They are insane hunters of animals that aren't in the water.


----------



## frogparty

arowanas come from asia and australia as well. the frogs/lizards/snakes would be GONE the second they hit the water, or looked into it


----------



## pygmypiranha

Ahhh! Gotcha. I was completely unaware that they can jump or are able to get animals out of the water. That's good to know. (tho I have only seen them in cages, not in a cage setting like this)


So that being said, I guess I'll detract that idea. Best stick to the knife fish.

What about something cool like the electric eel still? Is that alright?


----------



## frogparty

some get as thick around as a mans forearm and 6 feet long


----------



## Occidentalis

A school of Archer fish would be cool... I don't think they would take a frog when they were full grown (despite their relatively large size), but they would certainly take out fruit flies. Would look good with the rays as well.


----------



## frogparty

don't they need brackish water?


----------



## BChambers

Pantodon bucholzi-the african butterfly. Really cool, topwater-dweller that will love keeping the fruitflies cleaned up off the water's surface.

If you want to keep it to Neotropical fish, a big school of marble or silver hatchets would look great and have similar insect-eating habits.


----------



## Occidentalis

frogparty said:


> don't they need brackish water?


I've kept them in standard water fresh water with tannins with no problem. I've heard a few species do a little better with brackish but haven't had any experience with them.


----------



## frogparty

would make for an amazing display addition, especilly with all the ffs and potentially other food bugs crawling around. A few more branches over the water and they might be the most entertaining part of the viv. What species have you had success with?


----------



## Occidentalis

frogparty said:


> would make for an amazing display addition, especilly with all the ffs and potentially other food bugs crawling around. A few more branches over the water and they might be the most entertaining part of the viv. What species have you had success with?


The "Banded" species, I think it's _Toxotes jaculatrix_.


----------



## rihanssu

Energy said:


> Thanks for the lead. Seems like they have quite a bit of hard to acquire animals. Any experience with this vendor?


go to twin cities reptiles on university and vandalia they had a satanic leaftail last time i was in there. and if they don't talk to bruce. he'll know where a local breeder is that you can hand-pick one up


----------



## Energy

rihanssu said:


> go to twin cities reptiles on university and vandalia they had a satanic leaftail last time i was in there. and if they don't talk to bruce. he'll know where a local breeder is that you can hand-pick one up


I stopped by yesterday but no luck on the satanic leaf tail.


----------



## Energy

Thanks for the fish suggestions- 

How does this fish list sound?

1. Jaguar Or motoro stingray( would prefer a Henlie or Leopodli if any one knows where to get one)

2. Black ghost knife.

3.Elephant nose fish.

4 School of cardinals and rummy nose tetras

5. maybe a few killish.

6. marbled hatchets and or archer fish

7.Pantadon butterfly


----------



## rpmurphey

Check this guy outMaybe later for pups

It's just a place to start.


----------



## Fishman

You have a lot of different feeding requirements there for your fish list. If you are down to feed that many different feeding styles (including nocturnal feedings) than it is a cool list. Although I don't know about the stingray. Hope that helps.


----------



## frogparty

sounds awesome, but Im no expert on tropical fish.I know the htchets and butterfly and archers are mainly top of the water column, which seems like it would mesh well with the ray on the bottom.

On Monster Fish Keepers there are ray breeder who breed all types, maybe a good placeto find the leopoldi


----------



## Energy

rpmurphey said:


> Check this guy outMaybe later for pups
> 
> It's just a place to start.


I have checked with him twice and haven't heard back from him. But Thank you for that lead!


----------



## Energy

Fishman said:


> You have a lot of different feeding requirements there for your fish list. If you are down to feed that many different feeding styles (including nocturnal feedings) than it is a cool list. Although I don't know about the stingray. Hope that helps.



I think the list will be somewhat Tadpole safe. As far as feeding goes- I thought maybe some blood/blackworms and brine shrimp. Pretty simple. Or I am missing something?

If the top feeders pick off fruit flies then great!


----------



## Occidentalis

Leopoldi are available here in Michigan from the owner of this store:
Stingray Bay Pet Supplies

They will probably ship if you're interested. 

As far as your fish list, the cardinals, killies, hatchets and tetras will be made quick work of by the knife fish, as well as any freshwater ray you have in there. The hatchets may be able to live with the ray, but you'd have to judge it.


----------



## Ed

pygmypiranha said:


> Ahhh! Gotcha. I was completely unaware that they can jump or are able to get animals out of the water. That's good to know. (tho I have only seen them in cages, not in a cage setting like this)
> ?


I've seen them grab finches out of the air. 

Ed


----------



## Energy

Occidentalis said:


> Leopoldi are available here in Michigan from the owner of this store:
> Stingray Bay Pet Supplies
> 
> They will probably ship if you're interested.
> 
> As far as your fish list, the cardinals, killies, hatchets and tetras will be made quick work of by the knife fish, as well as any freshwater ray you have in there. The hatchets may be able to live with the ray, but you'd have to judge it.



I called and they want $2,500 for a leopoldi  ouch.

The black ghost knife has a small mouth and is a worm feeder by nature- very peaceful except to other black ghost knife.


----------



## Occidentalis

Energy said:


> I called and they want $2,500 for a leopoldi  ouch.
> 
> The black ghost knife has a small mouth and is a worm feeder by nature- very peaceful except to other black ghost knife.


Yeah, they are overpriced on everything else too, sorry about that.

I was thinking of a clown knife, don't know why, you clearly have Black Ghost Knife written.

I still think the ray will take out most of your small fish... I used to keep reticulata and even the small ones could take out large guppies.


----------



## Fishman

I think with the amount of space you have the fish will find their own niches. There may be some loss here and there, but for the most part you should be OK. The feeding requirements was more towards top water (yes they will eat fruit flies, even the killis, but you will have to make sure they get enough if that is all the food they get). The black knife is a nocturnal feeder, so feeding right before lights out is recomended. The most common death of them in captivity is starvation. NEAT fish if you can keep up with them! How about some new photo updates?


----------



## Occidentalis

Here's a little better price on the leopoldi.

MittenStateCichlids.com; Login

Not sure if you can access that without registering, but I can get you the contact info if you'd like.


> Selling this bad boy 4 a friend. Both parents were eclipse and he is a 7in. male about 6and 1/2 months old. Price 1800 and P/U is prefered. Will meet as far as the MI/ Ohio border. Any questions feel free to message me.


----------



## Energy

Yep, Yep, Yep- that is one nice Ray and I am interested. What info do you need from me so I can communicate with the owner?


----------



## Occidentalis

Energy said:


> Yep, Yep, Yep- that is one nice Ray and I am interested. What info do you need from me so I can communicate with the owner?


PM sent! Didn't want to muddy up your thread.


----------



## stingraymaster

Energy said:


> Yep, Yep, Yep- that is one nice Ray and I am interested. What info do you need from me so I can communicate with the owner?


That is a very awesome tank! The only thing I have to say is rays require width and gallons of water. Everything looks great to me for a ray but cant see what the dimensions are between the path ways to go from one side to another. We talked earlier and feel free to contact me. Rob


----------



## Energy

The path is to skinny for a ray to navigate-intentionally. That way small fish and tads can have a safe refuge on one side and I can easily seperate it off from the main area. I can also easily place a ray on each side if I need to seperate them.

The stingray section is 4 x4 and about 8" deep. I thought the size was Ok for a ray as it will give them surface area on the bottom and they don't care about height. To compensate for the gallons the entire tanks water area is connected and is part of a 90 gallon sump where the heat and filtration take place. Total water volume through out is somewhere around 400-gallons.



stingraymaster said:


> That is a very awesome tank! The only thing I have to say is rays require width and gallons of water. Everything looks great to me for a ray but cant see what the dimensions are between the path ways to go from one side to another. We talked earlier and feel free to contact me. Rob


----------



## Energy

Energy said:


> The path is to skinny for a ray to navigate-intentionally. That way small fish and tads can have a safe refuge on one side and I can easily seperate it off from the main area. I can also easily place a ray on each side if I need to seperate them.


Well- I sure was wrong. I picked up a small motoro and he glides down the path, turns around and hangs out in the channel.


----------



## Energy

Here is a few shots.










One more


----------



## pet-teez

That thing is so cute! And your enclosure looks great


----------



## Energy

He's muddied the water but I expected that. This is a fairly active ray but still not acclimated to frozen foods. The water is aging and turning a steady tea color due to the natural tannins(expected).

System design changes:

I installed a second self priming pump on a timer to due automatic daily water changes. Every day from 8:00pm-9:00pm whether I am home or not the system purges the extra 20 0r so gallons that is pumped in due to misting. Basically what this means is that a 5% or so water change takes place automatically every day. 

This may need to be modified to to due a larger change but for now I am still tweaking the entire system.


----------



## jubjub47

It looks great! Are you really misting 20 gallons a day though? That seems like a lot.


----------



## Occidentalis

Have any belly shots? Boy or girl?


----------



## HunterB

that second pic is my background on my laptop here
thats how good that viv looks


----------



## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> It looks great! Are you really misting 20 gallons a day though? That seems like a lot.


15 gallons is a close guess. The easiest way to do a water change is to add it through the misting system and subtract it from the elevated sump. I have to water the plants anyway and they have a very well draining soil and are the type that likes to stay evenly moist 24/7.


----------



## Energy

HunterB said:


> that second pic is my background on my laptop here
> thats how good that viv looks


Cool thanks, Now that just inspires me to do an even better job!

I still have to add more branches for climbing animals- BUT I plan on being careful not to make it "crowded" and lose the feeling of space. I want to utilize that empty air to create more environment and usable area.


----------



## Energy

Occidentalis said:


> Have any belly shots? Boy or girl?



Little girl.


----------



## Jason

That is looking great! Did you get the ray locally? How about a full tank shot.


----------



## Energy

Jason said:


> That is looking great! Did you get the ray locally? How about a full tank shot.


Yep just a local ray that was in holding for awhile. Should be a good test to make sure the water system is ready for more livestock.


----------



## Jason DeSantis

Did you ever decide what you were going to put in there?
J


----------



## Energy

Jason DeSantis said:


> Did you ever decide what you were going to put in there?
> J



Land animals- 
Jackson's Chameleons- one pair
electric blue gecko -pair
Spear or satanic leaf tailed gecko(maybe)
a few anoles
PDF- species undecided

Water:

one or two stingrays
cardinals tetras
rummy nosed tetras
marbled hatchetfish
black ghost knife
one or two plecos

That's about it.


----------



## jackxc925

I'm not so sure the Jacksons would do well with so much water and so little airflow. Also theres the whole tounge and eating small things that could potentially be PDF's. IMO you would need a lot more leaf litter and lower temps for leaftails, plus they are totally nocturnal. 

I like the geckos though. all you would need would be some more twiggy syle vines and a basking spot. 

As for the PDF's my favorite would be P. Bicolor because they are very bold and hardy


----------



## jubjub47

He's got a pretty good airflow system in the viv. I've seen people locally keep jacksons and even panthers successfully in paludariums so I don't think that is gonna be too big of a problem. As for the pdf's, it may try for them, but doubt it would be very successful.


----------



## jackxc925

Really? Can they get out of the water? And I think if they are trying for pdfs than thats enough for me to hesitate on using them.



jubjub47 said:


> He's got a pretty good airflow system in the viv. I've seen people locally keep jacksons and even panthers successfully in paludariums so I don't think that is gonna be too big of a problem. As for the pdf's, it may try for them, but doubt it would be very successful.


----------



## Energy

I've kept them together before with no problems. I chose the Jackson's because they seem to like the higher humidity and yes I do have a very good airflow system.


----------



## jubjub47

jackxc925 said:


> Really? Can they get out of the water? And I think if they are trying for pdfs than thats enough for me to hesitate on using them.


They actually swim suprisingly well.


----------



## Energy

When I ran a reef it was common to do "thermos" trades for coral frags. One person would cut a frag- place it in a thermos, seal it and mail it away and the other person would do the same in return. Wouldn't that be a safe way to mail frogs? Pack it snug with moss so they don't flop much. The thermos keeps the temp totally stable and is cheap to mail. Do people around here ever do this?


----------



## ChrisK

Energy said:


> When I ran a reef it was common to do "thermos" trades for coral frags. One person would cut a frag- place it in a thermos, seal it and mail it away and the other person would do the same in return. Wouldn't that be a safe way to mail frogs? Pack it snug with moss so they don't flop much. The thermos keeps the temp totally stable and is cheap to mail. Do people around here ever do this?


Wow what an insanely great idea


----------



## markbudde

Yeah that seems like a good idea. I suspect that the temps wouldn't hold nearly as well without all the water in there. Also, lack of air _might_ be a probelm, but it's worth at least checking out how well a thermos maintains temps.


----------



## Jellyman

Would there be enough air in a sealed thermos for one or more frogs??


----------



## Energy

Haven't people sent frogs in sealed bags before? I would think it would be the same except a thermos would keep the air temp more stable. A thermos would also cushion some of the bumps associated with travel and be convenient enough to send.


----------



## fizhfly

looks real nice energy !
keep doing things full tilt and they will turn out nice.


----------



## Ed

Energy said:


> When I ran a reef it was common to do "thermos" trades for coral frags. One person would cut a frag- place it in a thermos, seal it and mail it away and the other person would do the same in return. Wouldn't that be a safe way to mail frogs? Pack it snug with moss so they don't flop much. The thermos keeps the temp totally stable and is cheap to mail. Do people around here ever do this?


A lot of moss is a problem as the frogs can get tangled up in them and stress out. This can lead to a condition known as capture myopathy which can be fatal for the frogs. I have had good success at work shipping frogs in large fish bags as well as delicups. The trick with the fish bags is to limit the number of frogs inside the bag to lower CO2 buildup. 

Ed


----------



## Energy

fizhfly said:


> looks real nice energy !
> keep doing things full tilt and they will turn out nice.


Thanks- I am currently rescaping some stuff and will have updated photo's soon.



Ed said:


> A lot of moss is a problem as the frogs can get tangled up in them and stress out. This can lead to a condition known as capture myopathy which can be fatal for the frogs. I have had good success at work shipping frogs in large fish bags as well as delicups. The trick with the fish bags is to limit the number of frogs inside the bag to lower CO2 buildup.
> 
> Ed


I was thinking one frog per medium thermos. In trades we would just swap the thermos back and forth. I would think CO2 buildup would be a problem if you did multiple frogs in the same container as well be more stressful.

What is capture myopathy? Do they get stressed to the point where they can't recover?


----------



## Morgan Freeman

It's a stress induced illness, something to do with lactic acid I think


----------



## Ed

Energy said:


> What is capture myopathy? Do they get stressed to the point where they can't recover?


Actually they normally die.. if they get stressed enough that they don't really recover its called maladaption syndrome... (which can also lead to death, its just later on down the road..) 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Morgan Freeman said:


> It's a stress induced illness, something to do with lactic acid I think


Lactic acid can play a part in those animals that struggle long enough that lactic acididosis occurs but the animal can stress out in other ways as well but I was thinking about it getting tangled and tossed around enough that it had to struggle a lot. 

Ed


----------



## dopederson

rmelancon said:


> I like the simplicity of Epi-Web, but there is at least one story of a frog getting a toe entangled in it and ended up dead. Don't remeber where I saw it, maybe here.


There are more than a couple of stories like this around. I never had an issue with it. But the for sure way to get away from the problem is to paint your epiweb with a moss mix, I have used both simple spag that I ran through a blender and the commercial "moss mix" At three months from setting up my tank I can say I notice a huge difference between the two except cost.


----------



## harrywitmore

dopederson said:


> .....I have used both simple spag that I ran through a blender and the commercial "moss mix" At three months from setting up my tank I can say I notice a huge difference between the two except cost.


Did you mean I CAN'T notice a huge difference...?


----------



## dopederson

Energy said:


> This is a shot of the filtration room. The aquarium on the back wall is the elevated sump that returns back into the main display. The tall vertical tank on the left by the windows is my RO holding tank. This tank regulates the height of the water in the display and provides clean untouched RO water for my misting system. This tank holds approximately 100 gallons and the elevated sump is 90 gallons. Sorry for the mess around- it clutters up the shot but I wanted to get the general idea out there.
> 
> Lighting will be by T-5's. I have a light meter to read how well it will penetrate to the bottom. I am sure it will be fine, if it can grow high light loving corals than moss shouldn't have an issue.
> 
> The top of the tank is fully enclosed and the ventalation system is working good so far. No condensation on the main glass.



I wondered where you were hiding the guts of this monster. Can I ask what T5 fixtures you run? I am looking to upgrade my current t5HO fixture.


----------



## dopederson

harrywitmore said:


> Did you mean I CAN'T notice a huge difference...?


Yep. I CAN NOT. Thanks for pointing out the typo


----------



## Jellyman

So does this thing have frogs in it yet???


----------



## Energy

Jellyman said:


> So does this thing have frogs in it yet???


No not yet- I have of a conundrum that I am trying to work through. I come from the reefing community where rare specimens are prized. I have spent the last 5 years collecting hybrid tangs. Crosses between two species that are basically an "unexpected" but not isolated occurence. Hybrids in the ocean occur more often than you would think. In the reefing community they command a premium price. But in the frogging community Hybrids are despised. I have to retrain my thinking.

Lately I have been pondering the possibility of keeping hybrids. The main point is I despise the idea that some people cull these animals just because they have crossed. I never plan on trading or breeding these animals- just giving them a home instead of killing them.

I don't mind this idea simply because I am not attached to any species of dart frog. I am not hooked on having a pure bred and to me "a life is a life-no matter how small." 

I have been toying with the idea of having a 1700 gallon dart frog "orphange" for unwanted hybrids. 

I haven't brought this up because so many people are against letting these animals even live and I don't want to be "outcasted" by the frogging community-haha. 
But the point is some of these animals exist and may need a home. Furthermore it would be interesting to collect and compare these specimens.

So that's where I am at.


----------



## ChrisK

I wouldn't say people are so much against letting them live - more against producing them. Recently some people here in NY actually accepted some tinc hybrids to safely house.


----------



## Energy

ChrisK said:


> I wouldn't say people are so much against letting them live - more against producing them. Recently some people here in NY actually accepted some tinc hybrids to safely house.


Yeah- I'm not interested in producing them either- just giving them a place to live- even if they are usually ugly ducklings.


----------



## BOOSHIFIED

i dont see a problem with keeping them other then this...


if you keep them together then you will eventually have offspring. the question is then what?

you may be able to control this some but then again you may look at the viv one day and see a froglet that you didnt even know you had.


----------



## mtolypetsupply

Energy said:


> I am not hooked on having a pure bred and to me "a life is a life-no matter how small."


Awww, is that a "Horton-ism"???? I have a 2year old. 

I think it'd be awesome to take in the hybrid orphans. Knowing that they are not desireable in the trade, would you just flush eggs if you got them? Or keep gender specific tanks? 

Part of me (sorry for this, in advance) would love to see you let them breed. maybe restrict it to just one type of frog, then see what happens. Several generations down the line, you'd be able to see what the dominant characteristics are, from color to body type, to size, etc. 

Again, sorry, but Bio class is on genetics right now, and dominance, co-dominance, incomplete dominance, etc. etc. etc. I'm also a, um, Serpentophile (is that a word?). In the snake world, an amazing amount of energy goes into the genetics of color and pattern morphs, and breeding for them. I don't find many people talking about the genetics of frogs, just locality, importer, etc. So it would be a neat study to watch unfold. 

Back to reality now... <<<<shakes it off>>>>>>

Best of luck with what ever frogs you choose! Looking forward to updates!


----------



## Energy

mtolypetsupply said:


> Awww, is that a "Horton-ism"???? I have a 2year old.
> 
> Yes- yes it is. I have 4 kids so I know it well.
> 
> I think it'd be awesome to take in the hybrid orphans. Knowing that they are not desireable in the trade, would you just flush eggs if you got them?
> 
> Just let nature take it's course. If they bred- then I would keep the babies but nothing more.
> 
> Or keep gender specific tanks? Nope one big ol genetic pool -all togther.
> 
> Part of me (sorry for this, in advance) would love to see you let them breed. maybe restrict it to just one type of frog, then see what happens. Several generations down the line, you'd be able to see what the dominant characteristics are, from color to body type, to size, etc.
> 
> Again, sorry, but Bio class is on genetics right now, and dominance, co-dominance, incomplete dominance, etc. etc. etc. I'm also a, um, Serpentophile (is that a word?). In the snake world, an amazing amount of energy goes into the genetics of color and pattern morphs, and breeding for them. I don't find many people talking about the genetics of frogs, just locality, importer, etc. So it would be a neat study to watch unfold.
> 
> I agree- it would be interesting - even if nothing happens.
> 
> Back to reality now... <<<<shakes it off>>>>>>
> 
> Best of luck with what ever frogs you choose! Looking forward to updates!


Thank you for the response


----------



## Jellyman

I think a communal hybrid tank would make for a beautiful display. Only issue I would foresee is the possibility of repeated aggression and the passage of pathogens because you would be adding new frogs all the time rather then adding them all at once. 

I would love to add more leuc's to my mixed community tank but I do not want to disupt the harmony within the tank.


----------



## Energy

Jellyman said:


> I think a communal hybrid tank would make for a beautiful display. I think that it would be very interesting as well.
> 
> Only issue I would foresee is the possibility of repeated aggression and the passage of pathogens because you would be adding new frogs all the time rather then adding them all at once. True- there are always challenges to face no matter what you do.
> 
> I would love to add more leuc's to my mixed community tank but I do not want to disupt the harmony within the tank.


I suppose I need to put the word out that I am looking for Hybrids if I am going to do this. 

The only reason I don't have any frogs is the fear of mixing hybrids and pure breds and further crossbreeding. If I keep it all hybrids then at least I won't be adding to the crossbreeding intentionally.

I have wanted to do something with hybrids for awhile and think I will go ahead. Thanks everyone for your opinions and ideas so far. It's helped me to decide which way to go.

So if anybody has any- please contact me

Thanks


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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Updated photo's


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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## Energy

[URL="







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New tree that I built overlooking the lake- I needed more elevation for aboreal species and plantings.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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One of my favorite plants. This thing rivals any coral I ever had! This is the actual color- untouched and pretty close to true.

If I could only get a tank full of beauties like these!


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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Overhead shot.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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## Energy

[URL="







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## Energy

[URL="







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----------



## maxdendros

Wow it looks amazing, can we get a FTS?


----------



## jubjub47

BOOSHIFIED said:


> i dont see a problem with keeping them other then this...
> 
> 
> if you keep them together then you will eventually have offspring. the question is then what?
> 
> you may be able to control this some but then again you may look at the viv one day and see a froglet that you didnt even know you had.


If I'm not mistaken, crosses are infertile if you are talking breeding a leuc and a tinc. That is not the case with different morphs of the same species though.


----------



## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> If I'm not mistaken, crosses are infertile if you are talking breeding a leuc and a tinc. That is not the case with different morphs of the same species though.


That's what I thought. Most crosses are incapable of rebreeding- arent' they? I mean it takes a horse and a donkey to get a mule. You can't breed two mules together. 

Hybrid fish don't rebreed either.


----------



## Jellyman

Energy said:


> That's what I thought. Most crosses are incapable of rebreeding- arent' they? I mean it takes a horse and a donkey to get a mule. You can't breed two mules together.
> 
> Hybrid fish don't rebreed either.


The definition of hybrid within the DB community is often misused. In most instances the crosses are between two different morphs within a species which in actuality is not a hybrid and will reproduce.


----------



## frogfreak

Jellyman said:


> The definition of hybrid within the DB community is often misused. In most instances the crosses are between two different morphs within a species which in actuality is not a hybrid and will reproduce.


Hey Bryan

So what's it called when you cross Tinc "A" with Tinc "B"?


----------



## jubjub47

Jellyman said:


> The definition of hybrid within the DB community is often misused. In most instances the crosses are between two different morphs within a species which in actuality is not a hybrid and will reproduce.


That is what I said.


----------



## Jellyman

frogfreak said:


> Hey Bryan
> 
> So what's it called when you cross Tinc "A" with Tinc "B"?


It is just a cross of two tincs that may be from different locals. They are still the same species. It would be like an American breeding with an African, same species so not a hybrid. 

This is often referred to as a hybrid but actually is not.


----------



## Jellyman

jubjub47 said:


> That is what I said.


Yep, we said the same thing. I had not read your post and was not making reference to it.


----------



## Brien

What type of brom is the purple one ?


----------



## Energy

brien said:


> What type of brom is the purple one ?


Are you referring to this one?[URL="







[/URL]
If so - I don't know but I wish I did. I'd love to get a few more like that.


----------



## harrywitmore

This is a Cryptanthus. Not sure but most likely a hybrid. It look similar to one cal Elaine but there are too many to know for sure.


----------



## laylow

jubjub47 said:


> They keep green tree pythons with leucs at the Dallas World Aquarium in a pretty small enclosure. They may go for flightless birds if you decide to go that route.


Also in the shedd aquarium also has a large display with PDF's and a green tree pyton. I fell in love and this is what made me want PDF's of myown!!!


----------



## Ed

laylow said:


> Also in the shedd aquarium also has a large display with PDF's and a green tree pyton. I fell in love and this is what made me want PDF's of myown!!!


Actually that should be a Emerald Tree Boa and not a green tree python.. 

Ed


----------



## Energy

harrywitmore said:


> This is a Cryptanthus. Not sure but most likely a hybrid. It look similar to one cal Elaine but there are too many to know for sure.


Is that color normal? I've never personally seen one that vibrant. It puts my Fireball Broms' to shame. 

Anybody know a good source for crazy colored plants like that? I'd like to get a few more as centerpieces.


----------



## Energy

laylow said:


> Also in the shedd aquarium also has a large display with PDF's and a green tree pyton. I fell in love and this is what made me want PDF's of myown!!!



I've been their- they have a lot of cool stuff-for sure.


----------



## harrywitmore

Energy said:


> Is that color normal? I've never personally seen one that vibrant. It puts my Fireball Broms' to shame.
> 
> Anybody know a good source for crazy colored plants like that? I'd like to get a few more as centerpieces.


It looks about right for C 'Elaine' although it may not be that. Cryptanthus 'Black Mystic' is black but does wash out in high light. There are a lot of Cryptanthus species and thus many hybrids and cultivars. But, they are really easy to grow and I like them a great deal.


----------



## zcasc

Lookin' good, Energy. 

I'm curious...how do the stingrays interact? Is there any hostility between them whatsoever, such as food competition?

Also, have they been making use of that sandy river bottom and burrowing plenty?

I've always been interested in keeping rays, but have never gotten around to finding anything large enough to accomodate them in.


----------



## Energy

So far they don't bother each other at all and yes they do both burrow- a lot. In fact it raises quit a bit of sediment up every time. I have been doing a ton of water changes trying to clean out as much of it as possible. 

So far there has been no food competition either. One ray is much larger than the other so it would be no contest if it did occur.



zcasc said:


> Lookin' good, Energy.
> 
> I'm curious...how do the stingrays interact? Is there any hostility between them whatsoever, such as food competition?
> 
> Also, have they been making use of that sandy river bottom and burrowing plenty?
> 
> I've always been interested in keeping rays, but have never gotten around to finding anything large enough to accomodate them in.


----------



## zcasc

Haha, just stumbled upon this Freshwater Stingray pic. I guess this defines "tankbuster"...

Apparently it took 13 people 90 minutes to land this thing...770 lbs, and 7' long by 7' wide. 

That's probably an old fish...I can't imagine how much it consumes daily, either. 

...15 feet of aquarium would be solitary confinement for this thing...haha


----------



## Energy

I've seen that before- it's incredible to think that it has lived in a river without being discovered until now. Imagine what is in the ocean.



zcasc said:


> Haha, just stumbled upon this Freshwater Stingray pic. I guess this defines "tankbuster"...
> 
> Apparently it took 13 people 90 minutes to land this thing...770 lbs, and 7' long by 7' wide.
> 
> That's probably an old fish...I can't imagine how much it consumes daily, either.
> 
> ...15 feet of aquarium would be solitary confinement for this thing...haha


----------



## Energy

They caught it again- exactly one month to the day later! Plus they caught several others that were close in size but not quite up to the monster level shown here.


----------



## chinoanoah

Can you post a video?


----------



## zcasc

So, have you had any luck deciding on additional residents, frog-wise? 

Being a massive fan of the clawed frog family, I think it would be awesome to toss in some Surinam toads (Pipa-pipa), but the others were right in speculating that anything else falling into the water would be sentenced to death by frantic Pipa-pipa gulping. 

I do know that they also prefer deeper water for spawning, because of their goofy breeding dance, but they could certainly be transferred to a spawning tank. Only if you are at all interested in witnessing the grotesque (but wicked cool) display of froglets bursting from mommy's back. 

Unless you plan on keeping cardinal tetra-sized fish, I stand by them as a prime choice for the water area, as they are a definite oddball choice from the South American flooded forest biosphere. 










I mean, kids are great and all, but any imagine the mood swings a pregnant mom encounters when they look like _that_...


----------



## wcsbackwards

I don't think Pipa pipa would be a good idea with the fish he wants to put in there. 

On another note, have you considered putting in some nocturnal frogs so you have something to look at when the lights go out? Something like red eyed tree frogs or a _Phyllomedusa_ like _tomopterna_ or _P. vaillanti_...Might be pretty cool.


----------



## Energy

zcasc said:


> So, have you had any luck deciding on additional residents, frog-wise?
> 
> Being a massive fan of the clawed frog family, I think it would be awesome to toss in some Surinam toads (Pipa-pipa), but the others were right in speculating that anything else falling into the water would be sentenced to death by frantic Pipa-pipa gulping.
> 
> I do know that they also prefer deeper water for spawning, because of their goofy breeding dance, but they could certainly be transferred to a spawning tank. Only if you are at all interested in witnessing the grotesque (but wicked cool) display of froglets bursting from mommy's back.
> 
> Unless you plan on keeping cardinal tetra-sized fish, I stand by them as a prime choice for the water area, as they are a definite oddball choice from the South American flooded forest biosphere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, kids are great and all, but any imagine the mood swings a pregnant mom encounters when they look like _that_...



I considered one of these but they could claw the stingrays.


----------



## Energy

wcsbackwards said:


> I don't think Pipa pipa would be a good idea with the fish he wants to put in there.
> 
> On another note, have you considered putting in some nocturnal frogs so you have something to look at when the lights go out? Something like red eyed tree frogs or a _Phyllomedusa_ like _tomopterna_ or _P. vaillanti_...Might be pretty cool.


That's a good idea - red-eyes would be cool. I am currently looking for a pair of satanic leaf tailed gecko's for nocturnal activity.


----------



## Energy

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!


----------



## Energy

Hi all- I just returned from Hiking the jungles and river valleys of Costa Rica and could use some help identifiying some species.









And this guy.









He was about 7 foot long and not afraid of us at all. In fact he was sitting about 2 feet off the ground on a fallen tree watching us. I got about three feet away from him before I spotted it. When I tried to move him aside (gently) with a stick - he bit it and refused to move! And then he started to shake and "rattle" his tail although he didn't actually have a rattle. I have doing this on video tape as well.


----------



## Julio

the frog is a vittatus, not sure on the snake.


----------



## bobberly1

1. Phyllobates vittatus
2. one of the many species of ratsnake


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> the frog is a vittatus, not sure on the snake.


They must be pretty common- they were plenty of them.


----------



## Julio

The frog or the snake?


----------



## Energy

I meant the frog-


----------



## David Brahms

The snake is a Pseustes ssp.


----------



## Energy

David Brahms said:


> The snake is a Pseustes ssp.


Thanks- that describes it well. I need to learn more about the local snakes down there.


----------



## David Brahms

No problem. They are a really cool species. Not to hijack your thread but I figured I would share a cool youtube video of a related Pseustes in action.....I would love to stumble upon this in the wild! Amazing stuff!

YouTube - Woodpecker vs. egg eating Yellow-bellied Puffing Snake (Pseustes sulphureus)


----------



## Energy

That's a crazy video- rare footage for sure.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Any decisions made on inhabitants?


----------



## reefer:)

Wow. I just spent the last few days reading this thread. Quite impressive.

I too come from the saltwater community and remember your tank when u got tank of the month. It is still one of my all time favorite tanks. Why did u break it down in the first place? How long was the breakdown process?


----------



## Energy

Morgan Freeman said:


> Any decisions made on inhabitants?


Not yet- still scaping it.


----------



## Energy

reefer:) said:


> Wow. I just spent the last few days reading this thread. Quite impressive.
> 
> I too come from the saltwater community and remember your tank when u got tank of the month. It is still one of my all time favorite tanks. Why did u break it down in the first place? How long was the breakdown process?


It was time for a change, the new set-up is a lot of fun and less expensive!


----------



## winyfrog

Simply Awesome! I remember your reef tank and this viv is amazing. Do you have an updated full tank shot?


----------



## waterbed fred

Energy said:


> I have a stocking Question: Anyone have any suggestions for a unique/cool type of animal for this set up?
> 
> I was thinking PDF but am I not set on these. If someone has a different suggestion for a species or type of animal I would appreciate any ideas.
> 
> I actually looked into pygmy marmosets, small flightless tropic birds, and chameleons as options. Whatever the centerpiece animal winds up I would stock the rest of it to be compatible.
> 
> I'm open to ideas!


im thinking as large as your viv is, maybe go with some silverback gorillas or a family of chimpanzees!! maybe a tiger? maybe johnny weismuller could do an hourly "swing from a vine" or something!
just teasing,...great job on the viv and glad you documented the work! you have a better viv than most zoos, and you're just starting!!! keep sending those AWESOME pics!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Energy

newest pic's to follow- Full tank shot

[URL="







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## Energy

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## Energy

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## Energy

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## Energy

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## Energy

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## Energy

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## jake.adelman

wow... incredible


----------



## Fishman

It is amazing how quickly and well this tank has grown in, thanks again for sharing


----------



## Julio

Viv looks amazing!! what kind of fish do you have in there?


----------



## Energy

jake.adelman said:


> wow... incredible





Fishman said:


> It is amazing how quickly and well this tank has grown in, thanks again for sharing


Thanks! I figured it was time to show an update. I raised the water level and expanded the front bank to have a raised grotto.


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> Viv looks amazing!! what kind of fish do you have in there?


Leopodli Stingray
Motoro stingray
Black ghost knife
ornate bichir
tiger bichir
ropefish
blue spotted pleco
one large goldfish
and my 27 year old alligator gar in the back tank
about 75 rummy nose tetras
and about 50 fancy guppies.


----------



## jubjub47

Energy said:


> Leopodli Stingray
> Motoro stingray
> Black ghost knife
> ornate bichir
> tiger bichir
> ropefish
> blue spotted pleco
> one large goldfish
> and my 27 year old alligator gar in the back tank
> about 75 rummy nose tetras
> and about 50 fancy guppies.


Wouldn't a 27 year old alligator gar be too big? I work with a 75lb 7' alligator gar that is supposed to be younger than that.


----------



## Energy

jubjub47 said:


> Wouldn't a 27 year old alligator gar be too big? I work with a 75lb 7' alligator gar that is supposed to be younger than that.


Yeah it got stunted a long time ago. It's only 14" long and lives in the 90 gallon filter tank behind the display.


----------



## fleshfrombone

Outfreakingstanding man. Well done, I love it.


----------



## Energy

fleshfrombone said:


> Outfreakingstanding man. Well done, I love it.


Thanks for the compliment!


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Fantastic!!!!!

That raised water level is a nice touch, gives it a much better look!

Top work you must be very pleased with it!


----------



## Energy

Morgan Freeman said:


> Fantastic!!!!!
> 
> That raised water level is a nice touch, gives it a much better look!
> 
> Top work you must be very pleased with it!


Thank you- I like the raised water level as well. I want some really cool discus so I needed to raise it higher.


----------



## Energy

I realized we focus so much on the tanks themselves we sometimes overlook how the tank impacts the overall effect on the house. I've always found it interesting to see how people make their unique works of art fit into their living space. Where my tank starts was the addition I did to the house just to add the tank. The overall addition added a 24 by 36 foot living room onto the existing structure with a 30 foot vaulted ceiling. I added a high efficiency wood burning fireplace to heat the extra space. I have a loft above the tank and dropped the ceiling down over the tank itself to highlight that area. I designed and built the entire house and assisted with construction of the tank onsite before the living room was finished. It took twelve of us working with a master acrylic craftsman to do the construction. Here is the finished space.[URL="







[/URL]


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## Energy

[URL="







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## Energy

Gracie my African Grey Parrott in the dining room. 


[URL="







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## Energy

[URL="







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## Energy

[URL="







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## Energy

And finally one last shot of one of my other pets- A Northern Flying Tree Squirrel named "George". I open his cage about six o clock at night and let him hang out till about midnight. He runs around the house and hangs out in the loft, he puts himself back in his cage. I've forgotten to close it up and found him back in his nest. These shots were taken during the day so I had to wake him up to take them. [URL="







[/URL]

[URL="







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## Energy

[URL="







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----------



## frogparty

I hope you have a spare bedroom because Im moving in!!!! You haea beautiful home!!
I miss the cabin I lived in, log homes are my favorite!!


----------



## Energy

frogparty said:


> I hope you have a spare bedroom because Im moving in!!!! You haea beautiful home!!
> I miss the cabin I lived in, log homes are my favorite!!


Sure come on over, haha!


----------



## BOOSHIFIED

love the house. i do think the vivarium look fits your rustic style house more then a reef tank would.


----------



## AlexRible

Awesome tank and awesome living space! When you first started this thread, I thought to myself, hows this reef guy gonna make a 15 foot viv look good, but It turned out amazing!

***BTW Your couch is facing the wrong direction


----------



## dahenley

i was wondering if you had any behind the scenes photos? (the ones behind the tank? i only got a few pictures of what the old Reef setup looked like, but would love to see how everything works in the new setup?)


----------



## davecalk

I too like the higher water level. You have done an excellent job.

I would also like to see a few shots of how you actually worked on the tank. I imagine there was a lot of crawling around inside of the tank, but during the final stages I wonder how you worked without trampling plants and things. Being so large must have added to some of the challenge as you completed the final details. Leaning over the edge while hanging in mid air? Hanging seat / platform from the ceiling? Any working photos?


Dave


----------



## vivbulider

how deep is the water because if its deep Enough i would get some discus angel fish and some other Cichlids for the land you could get vampire crabs day geckos red eye tree frogs a smaller tropical Agama mossy frogs leaf frogs


----------



## Energy

AlexRible said:


> Awesome tank and awesome living space! When you first started this thread, I thought to myself, hows this reef guy gonna make a 15 foot viv look good, but It turned out amazing!
> 
> ***BTW Your couch is facing the wrong direction


I know about the couch, but try convincing my wife.


----------



## Energy

dahenley said:


> i was wondering if you had any behind the scenes photos? (the ones behind the tank? i only got a few pictures of what the old Reef setup looked like, but would love to see how everything works in the new setup?)


Here are the pic's. This one is the overall room. The water from the vivarium pumps into the 90 gallon elevated sump. There the detritus can settle out and three aquaclear 110's filter the water. Heating also takes place in this aquarium and then the water gravity flows back into the main tank via- the planted drip wall- where further filtration takes place.

The tall upright tank is a 90 gallon ro holding tank. I use that for my misting system and to do water changes.

The mini fridge holds fish food and beer. Everything a fish geek needs. Two of the three canister filters can be seen sitting on the shelf.

[URL="







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----------



## Energy

This is the sink area. I have two pvc pipes coming in from the top. One is a RO only outlet coming from the storage tank- I can use RO only water for a variety of things. The other pipe is the auto drain system on the set-up. This controls the water height in the main tank. Since the outlet to the drain is below the water level of the tank I had to build a siphon break into the system to keep all the water from draining out- hence the large pipe going into the sink. A smaller pipe pumps water via a maxijet into the larger tube that dumps into the sink. The difference in pipe diameter creates the siphon break. This can be seen at the top of the photo with the black tube going into the white pvc pipe.

A smaller tank can be seen in the corner- that's the quarantine tank.
The ro system is in the top of the photo and is regulated by a float valve in the 90 gallon ro storage tank.

The switches on the wall by the door control different bathroom fans for extra ventalation. One fan will pump the humid hot air back into the house which is helpful during the dry cold winters and the other fan will pump the air outside to purge the room of excess humidity. The filtration room also has four windows for natural light - two are operating and the best way to control humidity without electricity.
[URL="







[/URL]


----------



## Energy

This is the top of the tank. The extra large braces give me a place to sit or lay and work on the interior of the tank. The braces are 3/4 acrylic and about 2 foot wide. The top of the tank actually only has four openings each 36"x36". So there is about as much area to open as closed.[URL="







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----------



## Energy

Because the lights would be in the way and prohibit access I placed them on a sliding rail system. I simply used garage door rails and a reinforced 4x8 sheet of plywood to create two seperate units. That way only half of the lights have to be slid back at a time. I have it designed so that the lights can be slid totally away from the tank giving me 100% unrestricted access.


[URL="







[/URL]


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> how deep is the water because if its deep Enough i would get some discus angel fish and some other Cichlids for the land you could get vampire crabs day geckos red eye tree frogs a smaller tropical Agama mossy frogs leaf frogs



The water is about 12" deep - I am hoping deep enough for some small discus. 

I can't have vampire crabs because of the potential conflict with PDF.


----------



## koyoteturtle

I think archer fish would make a nice addition, but I see someone has allready suggested that. I had a few, they were really interesting additions to my tank.


----------



## Energy

koyoteturtle said:


> I think archer fish would make a nice addition, but I see someone has allready suggested that. I had a few, they were really interesting additions to my tank.


Your right- but I think the water might be too soft and acidic for them.


----------



## davecalk

Energy said:


> Because the lights would be in the way and prohibit access I placed them on a sliding rail system. I simply used garage door rails and a reinforced 4x8 sheet of plywood to create two seperate units. That way only half of the lights have to be slid back at a time. I have it designed so that the lights can be slid totally away from the tank giving me 100% unrestricted access.
> 
> 
> [URL="
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]


I wondered how you did the ceiling to keep the humidity high, keeping the critters in all while allowing access. Excellent solutions with having the lights on tracks as well.

Dave


----------



## Marty

Great job on this build ! That's a massive viv !!!


----------



## Chad Vossen

Stan's 1700 Gallon Vivarium - Video

video time!


Chad Vossen


----------



## Energy

Wow- I didn't realize you were going to do that. It's really cool, thanks! It's to bad the stingray went crazy and stirred up all the water right before you came over. Oddly enough he hasn't done it since, wouldn't know it!


----------



## Chad Vossen

it took me awhile. coupled with internet downtime and a video editing program that doesnt seem to handle audio very well... music is from someone in tcmas as well. 

now you'll have to one up this video and post a HIGH DEF video from inside the vivarium, and the outside, and underwater. time to invite a BBC crew over to get some footage.


Chad Vossen


----------



## winyfrog

Amazing! maybe I should turn my 1200 reef into a viv  lol.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







[/URL]

My leo like to hang upside down underneath the duckweed. This is "normal" behavior although it scared the crud out of me at first!


----------



## HunterB

more more more


----------



## BOOSHIFIED

awesome pic


----------



## Leidig

Amazing doesn't quite cut it for this thread.


----------



## dkk08

Energy said:


> [URL="
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> 
> My leo like to hang upside down underneath the duckweed. This is "normal" behavior although it scared the crud out of me at first!


maybe he's turning Vegan?


----------



## Energy

I think he is hunting... The baby guppies tend to hang out in the duckweed on that side. The person I got him from said that was fairly normal behavior. I've never seen a stingray swim upside down just under the surface of the water. This one does it alot-everyday. He's not to graceful when he tries to flip back over. He starts flapping and spraying duckweed infested water everywhere. It would be nice if he would eat the crap and not just play in it, haha.


----------



## Energy

I could use some help and/or advice. I will be heading to Florida- around Bonita Springs for a week. I was hoping to pick up some frogs and chameleons while I was there.

First question: Where do I go? Any one have any recommendations with contact info?

Second Question: Can I bring the animals back with me in my carry on instead of flying them overnight? It would be much easier on the animals to be on a 4 hour flight in warm conditions rather than in a box on a truck in sub zero weather.


----------



## carbonetc

This place has some pretty great stuff: Amazing Pets Naples Florida


----------



## Energy

carbonetc said:


> This place has some pretty great stuff: Amazing Pets Naples Florida


Awesome- thank you- I will have to try and go there. Looks like a nice selection of some pretty neat stuff.


----------



## davecalk

Energy said:


> Second Question: Can I bring the animals back with me in my carry on instead of flying them overnight? It would be much easier on the animals to be on a 4 hour flight in warm conditions rather than in a box on a truck in sub zero weather.



I know a lot of folks have done the carry on route when carrying only a few animals. Make sure that you have all sales docs with you in case they do a random hand search. That way it doesn't look like you are pillaging local animals which there are likely be local laws which prohibit such things. Carry on snakes might get a rise out of TSA. Snakes on a plane movies do tend to come to mind. Don't know what the prevailing wisdom is. 

As I remember, frogs bones don't show up on the scanners, so they don't often raise concerns. Obviously you'll want to use a plastic container. Empty water bottles work pretty well. The store could pack them as well and put on their store info as well.

Dave


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> I could use some help and/or advice. I will be heading to Florida- around Bonita Springs for a week. I was hoping to pick up some frogs and chameleons while I was there.
> 
> First question: Where do I go? Any one have any recommendations with contact info?
> 
> Second Question: Can I bring the animals back with me in my carry on instead of flying them overnight? It would be much easier on the animals to be on a 4 hour flight in warm conditions rather than in a box on a truck in sub zero weather.


Carrrying on frogs is usually not a problem. TSA doesn't care but the airlines do, so don't make it known what you are carrying on. There is also the small risk that they will make you check the bag if it is too large.


----------



## Energy

rmelancon said:


> Carrrying on frogs is usually not a problem. TSA doesn't care but the airlines do, so don't make it known what you are carrying on. There is also the small risk that they will make you check the bag if it is too large.



If I check the bag then I would be worried about them freezing in an unheated storage compartment. Ultimately that would be worse than shipping. Unless I have a couple heat packs on the ready - just in case 

One more question: 
Are there any good places to get exotic plants near bonita/naples Florida?


----------



## rmelancon

Energy said:


> If I check the bag then I would be worried about them freezing in an unheated storage compartment. Ultimately that would be worse than shipping. Unless I have a couple heat packs on the ready - just in case
> 
> One more question:
> Are there any good places to get exotic plants near bonita/naples Florida?


Yeah, I know you wouldn't plan to check the bag but sometimes on very full flights they will make people check their carry ons if there isn't enough room in the overhead bins. Adding heat packs is an idea and just tell them you have some perishable goods so they don't question what you're adding to your bag.


----------



## tonyguns85

do you have any pictures of building the tank in the wall like that? i would love to do something like it one day. is it glass on all side?


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## Energy

tonyguns85 said:


> do you have any pictures of building the tank in the wall like that? i would love to do something like it one day. is it glass on all side?


It's all acrylic and no actual construction photo's- sorry.


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## nathan

I think the discus would be an amazing addition to the water area. I keep discus with my rays and never had a problem. If you want to keep it more natural looking make sure you get a type that at least shows thier stress bars. Most of the high color discus have been breed to not have them any more. But If youre looking to add vibrant color there sure are some insane discus out there. 

One of the sweetest tanks I've seen in a long time !


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## dahenley

tonyguns85 said:


> do you have any pictures of building the tank in the wall like that? i would love to do something like it one day. is it glass on all side?


here are some pictures of it for you. 
Custom Made Acrylic Aquariums by Midwest Custom Aquarium, LLC

(i hope you dont care Energy. if so, let me know and i or a mod can delete it.)


----------



## dahenley

are you still happy with your aquarium? everything lasted and would you change anything?

for both, reef and vivarium?


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> I think the discus would be an amazing addition to the water area. I keep discus with my rays and never had a problem. If you want to keep it more natural looking make sure you get a type that at least shows thier stress bars. Most of the high color discus have been breed to not have them any more. But If youre looking to add vibrant color there sure are some insane discus out there.
> 
> 
> 
> One of the sweetest tanks I've seen in a long time ! Thank you!


I picked up four pretty awsome ones but I think I need a couple more to round out the herd. I do like the insane colors of the fish. I have two white butterflies, one albino checkerboard and one blue knight. The last few I pick up I want to be really wild. Any suggestions or resources?


----------



## Energy

dahenley said:


> here are some pictures of it for you.
> Custom Made Acrylic Aquariums by Midwest Custom Aquarium, LLC
> 
> (i hope you dont care Energy. if so, let me know and i or a mod can delete it.)


Those are great! Thanks!


----------



## Energy

dahenley said:


> are you still happy with your aquarium? everything lasted and would you change anything?
> 
> for both, reef and vivarium?


Funny you should ask- NO

Everything is growing well but I think both a reef and vivarium need to evolve as they are built over the years. I changed my reef a ton and plan on doing some big changes to the vivarium as well- hence the slow stocking. I haven't rushed anything just because I realize a vivarium is a living piece of artwork. Often times the picture or result you are looking for isn't revealed to you at once- but in steps. 

Because this was the initial set-up I knew in the back of my mind I would probably be making major changes to the system.

I haven't completely decided what those changes are yet but I feel and think that this vivarium will be no different.


----------



## nathan

Energy said:


> I picked up four pretty awsome ones but I think I need a couple more to round out the herd. I do like the insane colors of the fish. I have two white butterflies, one albino checkerboard and one blue knight. The last few I pick up I want to be really wild. Any suggestions or resources?


Check out choiceaquariums.com A local guy I know works there and breeds discus and supplies them. I do believe they ship. And I buy my discus from him.

Post pics of the ones you got !!!! How are the white butterflies? Im looking to add a couple more . . . white would be sweet.


----------



## nathan

Heres a shot of one of mine


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> Heres a shot of one of mine


Nice!!

I have checked out their website before and was wondering about their fire red discus. Only problem is the pics really don't show the discus all that well. I bet if I went their in person I could find some spectacular ones, but it's a bit far to go for a discus. My Whites are pretty cool- I don't have pictures yet.

I want two more bright red ones and a nice vivid solid blue to round out the herd.


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> Check out choiceaquariums.com A local guy I know works there and breeds discus and supplies them. I do believe they ship. And I buy my discus from him.
> 
> Post pics of the ones you got !!!! How are the white butterflies? Im looking to add a couple more . . . white would be sweet.


How far away is it from you?


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## nathan

Energy said:


> How far away is it from you?


like 15 - 20 minutes away depending on traffic. Was just there yesterday actually. . .


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> like 15 - 20 minutes away depending on traffic. Was just there yesterday actually. . .


Did anything stand out when you where there? Unusual or brightly colored?


----------



## Deli

GREAT tank... this is giving me ideas....

What the pink plant on the top right of this pic?
Looks like an Alternantera dentata 'Red Hot' to me but Im not sure. 
http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t149/Energy1212/1-21-20106.jpg


----------



## nathan

Energy said:


> Did anything stand out when you where there? Unusual or brightly colored?


Yeah They ussually have some really nice stuff in stock
Ill stop in there thursday and have another look and let you know.


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## Energy

nathan said:


> Yeah They ussually have some really nice stuff in stock
> Ill stop in there thursday and have another look and let you know.


If you could grab a couple pics that would be great!


----------



## Energy

Deli said:


> GREAT tank... this is giving me ideas....
> 
> What the pink plant on the top right of this pic?
> Looks like an Alternantera dentata 'Red Hot' to me but Im not sure.
> http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t149/Energy1212/1-21-20106.jpg


Sorry but I just don't know for sure but that does sound right.


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## Energy

I went to Florida and picked up some really nice frogs from a place called amazing pets. While I was in Florida I got the itch to make a few changes to my tank. The night I came back I landed at 9:00 pm and tore into it at 9:05 pm(literally). I worked on it for the next 5 days solid. 

My plan was to remove the sloping hill - The reason is I felt it was a waste of space. It was fine for the land animals but of course left nothing for the fish.

I decided that I wanted to create and "underground cavern" which would give the land animals their space as well as extra space for the fish. It would also create an area of refuge for the fish to hide and get out of site. 

I built my reef the same way and my experience was that if the fish had the area to go to they felt more comfortable and would spend more time actually out. I also liked the idea of not having the fish visible at all times. That way when people view the tank for awhile they can "discover" something that may not have been there earlier.

BUT- I couldn't take away from the land mass or dry area for the critters- conundrum time. 

First I had to rip out the hill- four (5 gallon pails) of black dirt came out and about the same in lava rock. My calculations I just made an extra 50 gallons worth of space.

This process turned the water in muck which took about 7 water changes to fix.

Before shot[URL="







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And here it is after the removal.[URL="







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----------



## Energy

Next I had to create the land mass. remember I wanted to have plenty of space beneath the land to act as a refuge for the fish. I started with a pvc frame work.[URL="







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From there I added caves and other hiding areas for the frogs and placed a liner to keep the soil seperate from dripping into the water area below.[URL="







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----------



## Energy

I had to test fit it into the area to make sure it would work as planned. I wanted to make sure that it would fit and have space for the plants above and swimming area below.[URL="







[/URL]


----------



## Energy

Next came the replanting. I used the existing plants from before and picked up some riccia to grow in as a ground cover in between the main plants.
[URL="







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This is a shot of the cave opening in front. There is also an opening on the side and the entire back is wide open.
[URL="







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----------



## Energy

Here is some more shots of the progress.
[URL="







[/URL]

And a shot from the side. I wanted a more rugged,wild look. As the plants grow in they will cover the edges of the rock making it look like the rock has "eroded"out of the cliff. You can also see one of the cave openings for the frogs. The "patio" by the cave opening is a rock slab that butts up to the waters edge.
[URL="







[/URL]


----------



## Energy

Then I needed to finally address the area over the main lake- it was to empty and boring. From the start I envisioned some log work going over the lake but wasn't happy with my homemade logs, they were just to bulky. I always prefer natural materials when I can use them and make them work into the overall picture. I picked up some driftwood-and it was ok. But it didn't come together as I wanted until I was able to get a few more pieces and form a bridge over the water. This will be planted with mosses and broms and allowed to grow in- here it is for now.
[URL="







[/URL]

This piece actually looks like a monster head from the side. The big jaws coming out of the water with two fangs and the eye.

Can you see it?
[URL="







[/URL]


----------



## Energy

I am also working on an automatic water change system. I have it down now where it will perform a 40 gallon water change daily. The best part- I don't even need to be home. So far I have it all done by gravity. I turn on a feed pump for two minutes which starts a prime going into the tank. I turn the pump off and gravity keeps the siphon going. Then I do the same to purge the tank of the extra water that was put into place. It is not perfect yet but has worked succesfully for the most part. I don't consider it done until it works exactly the same-every time 100%.


----------



## chinoanoah

Wow. This is amazing! Thanks for updating!


----------



## nathan

Very nice ! One suggestion though , I would paint the back of the cave to give it a more dark cave like setting. Not to sure if I like the whole I can see into the pump room look lol

Looking great though

Skipped class today - sorry no discus pics again, I even had the camera packed and ready to take some pics and videos. I think I might try and go on a day the guy that breeds them is there though. Hes not there on thursdays when I ussually go in. 

I'll be in florida all next week. Leaving sat or sunday. I was thinking about stopp ing in at amazing pets


----------



## nathan

Oh another thing that might be a cool addition to the cave , although not very natural. An underwater light, maybe red or blue. I have one on my african tanks and its not bright enough to disturb them at night but it still gives it an eerie lunar feel , looks pretty sweet. I have lunar lights over my rays and reef and they are sweet too but nt submersable.


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> Very nice ! One suggestion though , I would paint the back of the cave to give it a more dark cave like setting. Not to sure if I like the whole I can see into the pump room look lol
> 
> Looking great though
> 
> Skipped class today - sorry no discus pics again, I even had the camera packed and ready to take some pics and videos. I think I might try and go on a day the guy that breeds them is there though. Hes not there on thursdays when I ussually go in.
> 
> I'll be in florida all next week. Leaving sat or sunday. I was thinking about stopp ing in at amazing pets


I have the back cover off for the photo's- otherwise it would be to dark to get a good idea of what is going on.

I would definately stop at Amazing Pets- the animals there were incredible and what a selection of Poison dart frogs. They even had a fly ash river turtle!


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> Oh another thing that might be a cool addition to the cave , although not very natural. An underwater light, maybe red or blue. I have one on my african tanks and its not bright enough to disturb them at night but it still gives it an eerie lunar feel , looks pretty sweet. I have lunar lights over my rays and reef and they are sweet too but nt submersable.


I thought about it but for now I am cool with the set-up.


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## nathan

What frogs did you pick up from there?

Oh and post pics !


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## Energy

Some tincs and a few green and blacks- they are all in quarantine getting fattened up.


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## vivbulider

you should get a gtb or atb


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> you should get a gtb or atb


What are these?


----------



## maxdendros

Green Tree Boa or Amazon Tree Boa


----------



## zBrinks

I don't know if I'd trust an ATB around frogs and/or lizards myself. At least not a juvie.

By GTB (maybe confusing ETB and GTP?), I think you mean ETB - Emerald Tree Boa. Several zoos have kept these with darts for years without issue.


----------



## EverettC

Well I just finished reading this whole thread (took me a good 3 days) and I must say, as everyone else already has, that this is quite the amazing project. Now that I'm finally caught up I have a few suggestions!

First, I 100% support your decision to stay away from snakes. I have owned snakes in the past and I love them, they're great pets, but I feel that this is just not the right mix for them. I also think they'll destroy all of the landscaping/planting you've done, which would be horrible to say the least.

Secondly, in regards to the aquarium portion of your tank, how tall is the water now? I might have missed it, but when I kept discus I had them in a 65 gallon tank (which is 3 feet wide, 2 feet tall and 18 inches deep) and I would not suggest keeping them in anything that is remotely shallow. IME they really like to "explore their space" as it were, and I think they might scratch up their ventral fins in your water section.

What can replace discus? Well I would go with Aphyosemion australe, Fundulopanchax gardneri, or Fundulopanchax sjostedti. The last one is absolutely gorgeous and fairly sizable (5ish inches). If you grow a moss wall or have a way to drain the top 2-3 inches of water you could breed them and have a recurring "supply" within your tank. The two Fundulopanchax species will breed regardless, but I believe the Aphyosemion eggs need to dry out in order to hatch.

I love the placement of your sundew plants! Those are some personal favorites of mine and I'm glad to see others using them. Do you have any Nepenthes? If not I highly recommend getting some, they'd thrive in there.

I'm very curious to hear how your Jackson's turn out. I have kept a few chameleons in the past and have lost all of them due to power outages (I had a gorgeous panther that I was really upset about) . The air flow seems like it will be enough for them, usually people don't like to keep them in glass cages because they are prone to lung infections, but I think with the flora/air circulation you will be fine. One problem I could see coming up is the food that you will need to feed them. Crickets aren't the best food for chameleons because of the lack of nutrition and excessive protein they are loaded with. Cockroaches could eat eggs and harass the frogs and Jacksons are too small for superworms. You could probably get away with silk worms, but that's an incredibly high-fat diet and I would be worried about it. 

Anyways, I don't want to post a novel but everything is looking awesome! I just want to see more pictures, can we get closeups on some of your featured plants? Maybe the schools of fish and more pictures of your leopoldi!


----------



## fishboykaps

Energy said:


> [URL="
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]
> 
> My leo like to hang upside down underneath the duckweed. This is "normal" behavior although it scared the crud out of me at first!



I would put some air stones in the tank or some how increase water flow, usually when rays go on the top of the tanks it means the DO levels are low for them. 

I have never had any rays go upside down but i have had them hover at the top of a tank. I increased water circulation and they stopped.


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> Well I just finished reading this whole thread (took me a good 3 days) and I must say, as everyone else already has, that this is quite the amazing project. Now that I'm finally caught up I have a few suggestions!
> 
> First, I 100% support your decision to stay away from snakes. I have owned snakes in the past and I love them, they're great pets, but I feel that this is just not the right mix for them. I also think they'll destroy all of the landscaping/planting you've done, which would be horrible to say the least.
> 
> Secondly, in regards to the aquarium portion of your tank, how tall is the water now? I might have missed it, but when I kept discus I had them in a 65 gallon tank (which is 3 feet wide, 2 feet tall and 18 inches deep) and I would not suggest keeping them in anything that is remotely shallow. IME they really like to "explore their space" as it were, and I think they might scratch up their ventral fins in your water section.
> 
> What can replace discus? Well I would go with Aphyosemion australe, Fundulopanchax gardneri, or Fundulopanchax sjostedti. The last one is absolutely gorgeous and fairly sizable (5ish inches). If you grow a moss wall or have a way to drain the top 2-3 inches of water you could breed them and have a recurring "supply" within your tank. The two Fundulopanchax species will breed regardless, but I believe the Aphyosemion eggs need to dry out in order to hatch.
> 
> I love the placement of your sundew plants! Those are some personal favorites of mine and I'm glad to see others using them. Do you have any Nepenthes? If not I highly recommend getting some, they'd thrive in there.
> 
> I'm very curious to hear how your Jackson's turn out. I have kept a few chameleons in the past and have lost all of them due to power outages (I had a gorgeous panther that I was really upset about) . The air flow seems like it will be enough for them, usually people don't like to keep them in glass cages because they are prone to lung infections, but I think with the flora/air circulation you will be fine. One problem I could see coming up is the food that you will need to feed them. Crickets aren't the best food for chameleons because of the lack of nutrition and excessive protein they are loaded with. Cockroaches could eat eggs and harass the frogs and Jacksons are too small for superworms. You could probably get away with silk worms, but that's an incredibly high-fat diet and I would be worried about it.
> 
> Anyways, I don't want to post a novel but everything is looking awesome! I just want to see more pictures, can we get closeups on some of your featured plants? Maybe the schools of fish and more pictures of your leopoldi!



First off- thanks for the compliments!
I agree with you about not getting any snakes. I explored that area and couldn't find any that were compatible.

I also looked into the killifish and may still get a few. I already have my Discus and I know it's kind of shallow for them. The trade-off is there is a ton of space to explore and lot's of caves to hide out in and feel comfortable. 

I have quite a few different carnivorous plants and feel they will be ok with my pdf. I have watched fruitflys land on them and then take-off without a problem so I am sure a PDF should be fine. Mine are the tropical type and a few temperate ones that are in dormancy right now.

I don't have my Jacksons yet as I am still researching and planning. Any information is appreciated. I was planning on feeding gut loaded crickets and maybe wax worms etc.


----------



## Energy

fishboykaps said:


> I would put some air stones in the tank or some how increase water flow, usually when rays go on the top of the tanks it means the DO levels are low for them.
> 
> I have never had any rays go upside down but i have had them hover at the top of a tank. I increased water circulation and they stopped.


Thanks for the heads up. I asked a few people that are experts on leo's and one of them said it was pretty normal behavior for a leo. I have a lot of circulation- so I believe my DO levels are pretty good. What you are saying does make sense but I hope it's not true!


----------



## EverettC

I think there will be more than enough DO in your water because of all of the circulation you have, not to mention tons of live plants and great substrate. The waterfall alone provides tons of oxygen because it's breaking the surface tension and every drop that hits the water pulls oxygen in with it.

Back to the chameleons though... If you haven't gotten any I don't recommend it. I think they would look awesome in there, but I think you will run into problems with the foods you have to feed them messing up other parts of your ecosystem (and being a general hassle, people who get really in to chameleons really get in to chameleons, if you know what I'm saying...).

Another cool frog that would really love that vivarium is a Golden Foam Nest Frog. I don't know the scientific name, but you have a setup that would allow a breeding colony to build one of their foam nests over your water area, which would be amazing to see. They also wouldn't be a threat to anything but the smalled PDFs, as the large females grow to around 4 inches max.


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> I think there will be more than enough DO in your water because of all of the circulation you have, not to mention tons of live plants and great substrate. The waterfall alone provides tons of oxygen because it's breaking the surface tension and every drop that hits the water pulls oxygen in with it.
> 
> Back to the chameleons though... If you haven't gotten any I don't recommend it. I think they would look awesome in there, but I think you will run into problems with the foods you have to feed them messing up other parts of your ecosystem (and being a general hassle, people who get really in to chameleons really get in to chameleons, if you know what I'm saying...).
> 
> Another cool frog that would really love that vivarium is a Golden Foam Nest Frog. I don't know the scientific name, but you have a setup that would allow a breeding colony to build one of their foam nests over your water area, which would be amazing to see. They also wouldn't be a threat to anything but the smalled PDFs, as the large females grow to around 4 inches max.



I believe that I do have a ton of DO in the water column. To the point where it is problematic. I can't keep my CO2 levels high enough to let the plants really grow. I measure my CO2 levels by monitoring my PH and KH. Intern I believe this would be a backwards way of watching my DO levels- anyone please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Please expand on the problems with the chameleons. I am really researching this prior to moving on it to make sure all is well. I am not worried much about the food getting into the water column. I already have anoles and feed them. Whatever crickets go into the water become food for the fishes.

My big problem is getting the proper UVB lights while maintaining a fairly closed system. I understand the UVB rays can't penetrate glass or acrylic so I need a mesh cover. I need to determine where the chameleons will likely hang out and place the lights in that area. I don't want a mesh cover over the entire top section- it would be to difficult to maintain humidity.

This may sound off but I am also cultivating normal "flying" fruit flies inside the system. I am keeping the tank mostly sealed although their is of course escapees. 

I have the frogs in a seperate system from the main tank and have a healthy population of the normal flying fruit flies going in with them. The frogs seem to be doing well feeding on these and the larvae. 

The reason I am doing this is to provide a supplemental food source that can be picked off 24/7 by the anoles, geckos and frogs- beside the daily regular feedings of "non flying" fruit flies. I believe food should be present at all times and this seems like a way to do it. 
BUT- my wife wants to hang me out to dry because of the occasional escapees- so we'll see how it goes- haha.


----------



## EverettC

Many chameleon owners refuse to feed crickets because of the chicken feed that they're raised on at the stores and mass producers. This food causes them to be extremely protein heavy and is very hard on the chameleons because they have such small kidneys. I don't know the medical term for it, but essentially you can over-protein your chameleons to death. 

I like your idea of a constant "natural" food supply. I try to do this in my tanks with various micro-fauna and I think it is extremely beneficial for the animals. The only thing I worry about with your current setup is having extra crickets in the vivarium. Crickets will eat ANYTHING (I've found them to be slightly predatory as well), and I would closely monitor your plants and animals that don't have any defenses against them. Small frogs are especially vulnerable because they have soft skin and no toxins like they would in the wild (at least for PDFs). So I should probably say that my personal concerns with having chameleons in the tank goes more towards the food that they eat, rather than the actual chameleons themselves. I'd still be cautious, my old Panther used to try to eat my hand/fingers. Not bite, but actually shot his tongue out and tried to eat them. On the flip side, I find chameleons to be extremely rewarding animals as they can be hand fed and the larger ones (Meller's, Panthers, etc) can become quite friendly.

If you want to raise the CO2 levels in your water you could always add CO2 canisters. Alternatively you could increase the fish load, if you do it this way you need to make sure to do it slowly so the bacteria has time to regulate. Unfortunately those are about your only options for raising CO2, the side effect of having healthy fish can be struggling plants. The plants you have are fairly hardy and I wouldn't be too worried about them though, give them time to settle in and see what happens.

What frogs did you wind up getting? I saw a list several pages back but wasn't sure what your final score was. Did you check out the Golden Foam Nest frogs?


----------



## HunterB

the problem(s) with chams is they like their...airyness...while i dont know the sealedness or airflow of this viv....it might not be enough airflow for them, though considering the effort youve gone through building this, i assumer it has good flow

and they also are always gonna be cham<water. chams are pretty slow movers in their element (off the ground) falling in the water? almost always a death sentence


----------



## EverettC

Energy has a ton of airflow in his display, but water is always a problem. I don't really think a healthy chameleon is going to fall in to the water, but something that just crossed my mind is what if there is a crowded "highway" (one of your logs or something) and say there's a chameleon on one side and a dart on the other. Both want to go the opposite direction, and neither are going to move. I would worry about one of them falling in to the water and, with the larger fish and stuff you have in the water, being eaten/maimed/drowning.


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> Many chameleon owners refuse to feed crickets because of the chicken feed that they're raised on at the stores and mass producers. This food causes them to be extremely protein heavy and is very hard on the chameleons because they have such small kidneys. I don't know the medical term for it, but essentially you can over-protein your chameleons to death.


What food do you recommend? I didn't plan on leaving crickets in the system other than at feeding time just because they are predatory.


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> I like your idea of a constant "natural" food supply. I try to do this in my tanks with various micro-fauna and I think it is extremely beneficial for the animals. The only thing I worry about with your current setup is having extra crickets in the vivarium. Crickets will eat ANYTHING (I've found them to be slightly predatory as well), and I would closely monitor your plants and animals that don't have any defenses against them. Small frogs are especially vulnerable because they have soft skin and no toxins like they would in the wild (at least for PDFs). So I should probably say that my personal concerns with having chameleons in the tank goes more towards the food that they eat, rather than the actual chameleons themselves. I'd still be cautious, my old Panther used to try to eat my hand/fingers. Not bite, but actually shot his tongue out and tried to eat them. On the flip side, I find chameleons to be extremely rewarding animals as they can be hand fed and the larger ones (Meller's, Panthers, etc) can become quite friendly.


The constant natural food supply is paying off already. I am just starting to get a supply of fruit flys established inside the vivarium. The anoles have been more active in the last two days than the entire time I have had them. Even the big ones are chasing down and picking off the flies.


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> If you want to raise the CO2 levels in your water you could always add CO2 canisters. Alternatively you could increase the fish load, if you do it this way you need to make sure to do it slowly so the bacteria has time to regulate. Unfortunately those are about your only options for raising CO2, the side effect of having healthy fish can be struggling plants. The plants you have are fairly hardy and I wouldn't be too worried about them though, give them time to settle in and see what happens.
> 
> What frogs did you wind up getting? I saw a list several pages back but wasn't sure what your final score was. Did you check out the Golden Foam Nest frogs?


I have a CO2 system set up on a ph controller to elevate the levels inside the system. I have a Milwaukee regulator with a Bubble counter on a 20lb tank. even with all this I can't get my CO2 levels up becasue of the dual drip/waterfall wallls. But I am sure it helps better than nothing.

I did check into the golden nest frogs and that may be something for the future.

Frogs: A few different tincs and some aurutus- nothing special or elaborate. I am growing them out in a 55 gallon that I am doing the natural fruit fly supply method as well. They can pick and eat all day 24/7 if they want. I think they will need to be larger and stronger for a system like this.


----------



## Energy

HunterB said:


> the problem(s) with chams is they like their...airyness...while i dont know the sealedness or airflow of this viv....it might not be enough airflow for them, though considering the effort youve gone through building this, i assumer it has good flow
> 
> and they also are always gonna be cham<water. chams are pretty slow movers in their element (off the ground) falling in the water? almost always a death sentence





EverettC said:


> Energy has a ton of airflow in his display, but water is always a problem. I don't really think a healthy chameleon is going to fall in to the water, but something that just crossed my mind is what if there is a crowded "highway" (one of your logs or something) and say there's a chameleon on one side and a dart on the other. Both want to go the opposite direction, and neither are going to move. I would worry about one of them falling in to the water and, with the larger fish and stuff you have in the water, being eaten/maimed/drowning.



I have great air flow- in fact I have had to tone this down a little. I have cut the fans back on the timers to increase humidity. Once the Chams go in the fans will be jacked back up.

I have heard some chams are strong swimmers- Jacksons especially. Either way drowning would occur before predation. I overfeed the stingrays so they have gotten to the point of "why bother". They don't chase the fish because food is readily available daily.


----------



## EverettC

Silkworms are probably your best bet. Check them out here, this is where I used to get mine:

Mulberry Farms Silkworms

Other food options are roaches and termites, but termites won't be enough for them when they are adults. The nice thing about termites is that the frogs will go nuts for them as well.

If you over-feed the rays I don't see any reason why something potentially falling into the water is too big of an issue. The tincs and auratus should be an interesting mix for that tank, I can't wait to see more pictures!


----------



## zBrinks

Energy said:


> Frogs: A few different tincs and some aurutus- nothing special or elaborate. I am growing them out in a 55 gallon that I am doing the natural fruit fly supply method as well. They can pick and eat all day 24/7 if they want. I think they will need to be larger and stronger for a system like this.


 Please be careful to insure the frogs are getting all of the vitamins and minerals that they need. Unless you are taking steps to add dusted flies, clay/mineral soils, etc, you may run into a problem down the road. I can recall a few instances where the frogs had tons of microfauna in the viv, grew well, only to succumb to vitamin/mineral deficiencies after a year or two.


----------



## David Brahms

Hi Energy,
I have kept and bred several species of Chameleons in the past and I wanted to share my $.02 on keeping them in your system based on my experiences. Mainly to help prevent some headaches and/or heartaches...

First, Chameleons are VERY predatory and if an animal looks small enough to eat they will most likely give it a try. This could be a problem with your frogs and other small animals already in the system (anoles). They will most likely test the item by hitting it and crunching before they decide it isn't very palatable. I even had one Chameleon eat one of it's offspring when it was placed too close to the perching parent for just a second while transferring cages. Given that the frogs still possibly have some toxins in their skin (even captive born frogs) this could be bad for the frogs and the Chameleon.

Second, the Tennessee Aquarium had a Pardalis Cham in a display where it had perches above water (entire bottom of the display was water) and imo the animal was very stressed in this environment. In general this is not a natural place for them to hang out. Chameleons, just like darts, do not tolerate being stressed for long periods and it will shorten their life.

Lastly, I wanted to ask where the anoles were from and were they properly QT'ed before introduction. These could easily transfer harmful internal parasites to your inhabitants (frogs and Chams) through their waste and also if the Cham decides to make a meal out of one or two. 

I don't want to come across as a downer....I think your system looks great and I would love to play with something like that! I just believe that it won't work well for everything if you catch my drift?


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> Silkworms are probably your best bet. Check them out here, this is where I used to get mine:
> 
> Mulberry Farms Silkworms
> 
> Other food options are roaches and termites, but termites won't be enough for them when they are adults. The nice thing about termites is that the frogs will go nuts for them as well.
> 
> If you over-feed the rays I don't see any reason why something potentially falling into the water is too big of an issue. The tincs and auratus should be an interesting mix for that tank, I can't wait to see more pictures!



I have bookmarked that site and will probably use them for future orders- Thank you!

I am not sure how well buying roaches to bring into our home would go over with the wife. I may have to pass on that option.


----------



## Energy

zBrinks said:


> Please be careful to insure the frogs are getting all of the vitamins and minerals that they need. Unless you are taking steps to add dusted flies, clay/mineral soils, etc, you may run into a problem down the road. I can recall a few instances where the frogs had tons of microfauna in the viv, grew well, only to succumb to vitamin/mineral deficiencies after a year or two.


The frogs are being fed flightless fruit flies as well as the regular ones. I will be periodically dusting the flightless ones and using whole fruit to raise the regular ones inside the system. I am just using the regular ones to provide that inbetween meal "snack".


----------



## Energy

David Brahms said:


> Hi Energy,
> I have kept and bred several species of Chameleons in the past and I wanted to share my $.02 on keeping them in your system based on my experiences. Mainly to help prevent some headaches and/or heartaches...
> 
> First, Chameleons are VERY predatory and if an animal looks small enough to eat they will most likely give it a try. This could be a problem with your frogs and other small animals already in the system (anoles). They will most likely test the item by hitting it and crunching before they decide it isn't very palatable. I even had one Chameleon eat one of it's offspring when it was placed too close to the perching parent for just a second while transferring cages. Given that the frogs still possibly have some toxins in their skin (even captive born frogs) this could be bad for the frogs and the Chameleon.
> 
> Second, the Tennessee Aquarium had a Pardalis Cham in a display where it had perches above water (entire bottom of the display was water) and imo the animal was very stressed in this environment. In general this is not a natural place for them to hang out. Chameleons, just like darts, do not tolerate being stressed for long periods and it will shorten their life.
> 
> Lastly, I wanted to ask where the anoles were from and were they properly QT'ed before introduction. These could easily transfer harmful internal parasites to your inhabitants (frogs and Chams) through their waste and also if the Cham decides to make a meal out of one or two.
> 
> I don't want to come across as a downer....I think your system looks great and I would love to play with something like that! I just believe that it won't work well for everything if you catch my drift?



I agree on the predation of the larger chameleons. I have kept them before as well along with many other reptiles. I have already turned down a number of larger Jackson's pairs just because of this. 

My idea is to raise a small pair along with the frogs. In the past this has worked well to keep them from viewing the small frogs as food.

I have about half of the tank as land so the chams will not have to rest or perch above water. I don't like that idea either- it's stressful and not natural. How many times in nature do you see chameleons hanging out over a pool of water- not often.


----------



## nathan

Chameleons do get VERY stressed in non screen aquariums. While you may have good air flow, you still will have reflections that will cause stress on the chameleons . . . just something to think about.


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> Chameleons do get VERY stressed in non screen aquariums. While you may have good air flow, you still will have reflections that will cause stress on the chameleons . . . just something to think about.


Good point- I wonder if acrylic reflects the same as glass? I can't really stop or control the reflective qualities of acrylic without major modifications. This may be an issue that I haven't looked into yet. The space between the acrylic and the chameleon would be about 2-3 feet. I wonder if that would make a difference to lesson reflection aggression.


----------



## nathan

I would probably avoid chameleons , as acrylic still has reflections. Chameleons have great eyesight so 2-3 feet is nothing really.

If you want something that will be out during the day , maybe consider some day geckos, a species that stays on the small side, or a group of electric blue geckos, they are bright and stay small and will feed on fruit flies


----------



## EverettC

The day geckos are a great option, they'll crawl on the sides of your enclosure and the high-activity levels of the tank won't bother them. I've never had any, but I've always loved the madagascar day geckos, great looking reptiles.


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## seamonkey84

The only chameleon i would consider for a non screen enclosure would be the pygmy chameleon species. though not very large or colorful, they are one of the hardiest, and full of personality. as long as you dont have multiple males (well in your case you prob could) you could have them communally, as unlike most chams, they tend to be social. they could eat fruit flies like the frogs, or small crickets (1/4in size) and roach nymphs. they prefer the micro climate created in a terrarium with sufficient ventilation. Down side is almost all of them are still wild caught, but easy to breed in captivity. another good choice may be the electric blue day geckos, again small, but very colorful. a few breeding pairs/trios would probably be very happy in a jungle like yours, eating spring tails, fruit flies, and baby food/ nectar. either/both of these would provide excellent "hide and seek" critters to keep you looking and wondering as you stare into your little piece of the tropic, without having to worry if your pets are going to end up eating each other. however, the anoles may out compete most for food.


----------



## Energy

I like the idea of day geckos but I have heard they are extremely territorial and aggressive toward each other. I have seriously considered the pygmy chams before and may have to go back to that route. 

What kind of day geckos could I keep together without aggression?


----------



## seamonkey84

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/community/gecko-care-sheets/31790-lygodactylus-williamsi.html


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## Energy

Thanks for the link, unfortunately it says they should not be kept with other day geckos-as I thought. It seems they will also need a UVB light as well.


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## nathan

Most day geckos species can not be mixed due to agression. But in a viv your size you might be able to put lets say a trio of gold dust and a trio of peacock. i have housed these before in the same enclosure with no problems, As long as you keep only one male of each.

The electric blue geckos are tiny but BRIGHT ( dominant males anyways) And with your viv you would be able to have a decent sized group in there.

Another route would be Neon yellow headed day geckos ,Phelsuma klemmeri
These guys are awesome ! And you would be able to house them in a group.


----------



## Energy

Alright a new plan on the stocking list:

5 pygmy chameleons 
2.3 electric blue day geckos
ands may a 1.2 of some other day gecko variety.

Sound feasible?


----------



## seamonkey84

that sounds good to me, depending on what the other geckos are. with the pygmies, you could have two males and still have their own territory. what do you have for a cleanup crew, or have i read over that and missed it... 
with a setup your size though, you'd have to be very vigilant looking for those babies or eggs, as hatching would probably have a hard time foraging for food in such a wild setting. or keep it stocked with enough spring tails i guess and hope for the best as nature does. daily dusted fruit flies and you could most likely get the chameleons to feed out of a cup/deep bowl for the small crickets.


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## Morgan Freeman

Sounds like a good mix to me, do the chams not need it slightly cooler than the geckos though?


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## nathan

I would avoid mixing the day geckos and the electric blues, due to size. If you were going to mix I would try the neon yellow headed day geckos with them. Closer to the size of the electric blues . . .


----------



## Energy

seamonkey84 said:


> that sounds good to me, depending on what the other geckos are. with the pygmies, you could have two males and still have their own territory. what do you have for a cleanup crew, or have i read over that and missed it...
> with a setup your size though, you'd have to be very vigilant looking for those babies or eggs, as hatching would probably have a hard time foraging for food in such a wild setting. or keep it stocked with enough spring tails i guess and hope for the best as nature does. daily dusted fruit flies and you could most likely get the chameleons to feed out of a cup/deep bowl for the small crickets.


Clean-up crew- Just plecos and siamese algae eaters, some cherry shrimp, some Grammarus(which I believe all turned into fish food).

Babies: the idea is to set-up cultures inside the system to a point that could help all the livestock"graze" during the day-including babies. Other than that if I spotted them then I could do something more specific.


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## Energy

Morgan Freeman said:


> Sounds like a good mix to me, do the chams not need it slightly cooler than the geckos though?


According to the care sheets they seem to be able to tolerate even temperatures in the 70's up to the low 80's.


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> I would avoid mixing the day geckos and the electric blues, due to size. If you were going to mix I would try the neon yellow headed day geckos with them. Closer to the size of the electric blues . . .


For sure- I would make sure sizes are somewhat the same. Makes feeding easier as well.


----------



## RL7836

EverettC said:


> I love the placement of your sundew plants! Those are some personal favorites of mine and I'm glad to see others using them. Do you have any Nepenthes? If not I highly recommend getting some, they'd thrive in there.


Some other carnivorous plant ideas:
- U. humboldtii or U. nelumbifolia - both have interesting leaves & live in the water-filled bowls of bromeliads. Flowers are large & unique (also no dry period required as with most of the epiphytic utrics)
- Nepenthes species > tenuis (if you can locate some), inermis, argentii, platychila - all have interesting pitchers (google names & lots of images come up) and will not get so large as to overpower your space (or permanently trap your herps).

Keep up the great work,
Ron


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## Energy

RL7836 said:


> Some other carnivorous plant ideas:
> - U. humboldtii or U. nelumbifolia - both have interesting leaves & live in the water-filled bowls of bromeliads. Flowers are large & unique (also no dry period required as with most of the epiphytic utrics)
> - Nepenthes species > tenuis (if you can locate some), inermis, argentii, platychila - all have interesting pitchers (google names & lots of images come up) and will not get so large as to overpower your space (or permanently trap your herps).
> 
> Keep up the great work,
> Ron



Thanks for the great plant ideas and recommendations! It will be interesting to see which ones are available.


----------



## Energy

I picked up the last of the Discus for the system. I have a blue Knight, two white butterflies, one albino checkerboard, One red melon, One solid blue select grade with ruby eyes, One penang eruption, one vivid blue leopard, one carnation pigeon blood.

These all came from Kenny's Discus. From my experience he has incredible selection, great prices and when his fish arrive they are in outstanding condition. I couldn't be happier with my experience. I will post some pics of the new arrivals later.


----------



## Energy

Here's a link a website I just set up featuring my reef aquarium which I converted into the new set-up.

Energy Reef


Please let me know what you think and how I can improve this website.


----------



## nathan

Energy said:


> I picked up the last of the Discus for the system. I have a blue Knight, two white butterflies, one albino checkerboard, One red melon, One solid blue select grade with ruby eyes, One penang eruption, one vivid blue leopard, one carnation pigeon blood.
> 
> These all came from Kenny's Discus. From my experience he has incredible selection, great prices and when his fish arrive they are in outstanding condition. I couldn't be happier with my experience. I will post some pics of the new arrivals later.


Cant wait to see the pics !

Sorry I couldnt get you pictures of choices discus sooner

But man POST THE PICS ALLREADY will ya ! lol


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## chinoanoah

Yeah! we wanna see the discus!


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## AzureFrog

First I want to say that your tank is absolutely beautiful!

That said, I hate to be a downer, but I have many concerns about your Discus...



EverettC said:


> Secondly, in regards to the aquarium portion of your tank, how tall is the water now? I might have missed it, but when I kept discus I had them in a 65 gallon tank (which is 3 feet wide, 2 feet tall and 18 inches deep) and I would not suggest keeping them in anything that is remotely shallow. IME they really like to "explore their space" as it were, and I think they might scratch up their ventral fins in your water section.


Everett is completely right about this... Discus prefer, and some would say need, a taller body of water.

I was also wondering how many gallons are in the water portion? Discus need a minimum of 10 gals per fish. I counted nine Discus on your list...

Most people who have had discus would say that it is not a good idea to keep large plecos (anything over 5") with Discus, they can attach themselves to the sides of your fish.

Discus are very very high maintenance fish, they are sensitive to water conditions and require at the least one or two water changes a week. Many 
would argue that they need one water change a day, especially if your tank is over stocked (which I believe yours will be). I have 5 Discus in a 75 gal, I do weekly water changes (with 3 filters running) and water quality is still a constant battle.

Finally, although Discus are a peaceful fish, they can be aggressive toward one another, especially if crowded... 

Please reconsider putting 9 Discus in your tank... although them may live for awhile, I don't believe they will thrive and you will probably lose several.

Just my 2 cents...

Peace
Shawn


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## Energy

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## Energy

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## Energy

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## Julio

Energy said:


> [URL="
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]


That discus is insane!!


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## Energy

Julio said:


> That discus is insane!!


They all came from Kenny's discus- his stuff is incredible!


----------



## Energy

AzureFrog said:


> First I want to say that your tank is absolutely beautiful!
> 
> That said, I hate to be a downer, but I have many concerns about your Discus...
> 
> 
> 
> Everett is completely right about this... Discus prefer, and some would say need, a taller body of water.
> 
> I was also wondering how many gallons are in the water portion? Discus need a minimum of 10 gals per fish. I counted nine Discus on your list...
> 
> Most people who have had discus would say that it is not a good idea to keep large plecos (anything over 5") with Discus, they can attach themselves to the sides of your fish.
> 
> Discus are very very high maintenance fish, they are sensitive to water conditions and require at the least one or two water changes a week. Many
> would argue that they need one water change a day, especially if your tank is over stocked (which I believe yours will be). I have 5 Discus in a 75 gal, I do weekly water changes (with 3 filters running) and water quality is still a constant battle.
> 
> Finally, although Discus are a peaceful fish, they can be aggressive toward one another, especially if crowded...
> 
> Please reconsider putting 9 Discus in your tank... although them may live for awhile, I don't believe they will thrive and you will probably lose several.
> 
> Just my 2 cents...
> 
> Peace
> Shawn


First off thanks for the compliments and I due appreciate your concern. Informed opinions like that help systems improve!

I'd like to get your opinion after I give you a break down of the system.

I would estimate the volume of water inside the system to be about 450 gallons and a sump of 90 gallons to make total system volume 540 gallons. They have unrestricted space end from end for 15 feet 6 inches to roam. They have two lakes on each end of the system that average in size about 4 feet by 4 feet. Just recently I built a cave area that is covered that allows them to escape from the viewing area that measures 3 feet x 3 feet. I also plan on upgrading the other side of the system to build another similiar cave area seperate from the new one.

The water temperature is set at 82 F and ph is set and regulated by a Milwaukee PH controller at 6.8.

At 5:00 pm everyday the system does an automatic 70 gallon water change(did I mention everyday). 50 gallons of this water is 1 ppm RO only water, 20 gallons is 92 ppm tap water. At 7:00 pm the excess water added at 5:00 pm is purged from the system. 

The entire system is watered 5 times a day and this water adds another 15 gallons onto the total volume of water that gets purged and changed. This water must filter through pure coco-fiber before entering the water column the fish live in.

After placing the last 5 discus in the system pairs started to form immediately. This is a good sign but not really good overall. When this happens I also know aggression will increase. I have plenty of area overall to allow the Discus to seperate and not even know the others exist. 

Still with all these measures in place I know there will be problems. Many people would be inclined to add more discus-given the amount of space/seperation and total in tank water volume. I do not plan on doing this. First I want to monitor how these do/interact. 

Filtration: I have four(4) fluval 405's , two aquaclear 110's and the biggest biological filtration occurs through the 2 foot wide by 33" tall planted drip wall. This all in conjunction with daily automatic water changes.


----------



## AzureFrog

Energy said:


> First off thanks for the compliments and I due appreciate your concern. Informed opinions like that help systems improve!
> 
> I'd like to get your opinion after I give you a break down of the system.
> 
> I would estimate the volume of water inside the system to be about 450 gallons and a sump of 90 gallons to make total system volume 540 gallons. They have unrestricted space end from end for 15 feet 6 inches to roam. They have two lakes on each end of the system that average in size about 4 feet by 4 feet. Just recently I built a cave area that is covered that allows them to escape from the viewing area that measures 3 feet x 3 feet. I also plan on upgrading the other side of the system to build another similiar cave area seperate from the new one.
> 
> The water temperature is set at 82 F and ph is set and regulated by a Milwaukee PH controller at 6.8.
> 
> At 5:00 pm everyday the system does an automatic 70 gallon water change(did I mention everyday). 50 gallons of this water is 1 ppm RO only water, 20 gallons is 92 ppm tap water. At 7:00 pm the excess water added at 5:00 pm is purged from the system.
> 
> The entire system is watered 5 times a day and this water adds another 15 gallons onto the total volume of water that gets purged and changed. This water must filter through pure coco-fiber before entering the water column the fish live in.
> 
> After placing the last 5 discus in the system pairs started to form immediately. This is a good sign but not really good overall. When this happens I also know aggression will increase. I have plenty of area overall to allow the Discus to seperate and not even know the others exist.
> 
> Still with all these measures in place I know there will be problems. Many people would be inclined to add more discus-given the amount of space/seperation and total in tank water volume. I do not plan on doing this. First I want to monitor how these do/interact.
> 
> Filtration: I have four(4) fluval 405's , two aquaclear 110's and the biggest biological filtration occurs through the 2 foot wide by 33" tall planted drip wall. This all in conjunction with daily automatic water changes.



Your system sounds great, thank you for the break down. I guess the photos gave me the impression that the water section was much much smaller.

I still believe that the water is a bit shallow, make sure that there is nothing pointy or sharp anywhere in the water, as Discus can and will scrape their sides badly if they are startled.

What kind of plecos do you have? Most of the common plecos will get huge, I personally would not risk keeping them with a Discus. You might want to look into Bristle Nose cats (Ancistrus) they stay small (around 5") and are commonly kept with Discus. They are a really cool little fish, a small herd would look great in your tank.

Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus • Loricariidae • Cat-eLog • PlanetCatfish

Peace
Shawn


----------



## Morgan Freeman

Those discuss are stunning! Amazing colours. This tank is becomeing even more impressive.


----------



## Energy

Morgan Freeman said:


> Those discuss are stunning! Amazing colours. This tank is becomeing even more impressive.


Thank you, I am curretnly working on gutting and redoing the left side. What a chore! UGH.


----------



## Energy

AzureFrog said:


> Your system sounds great, thank you for the break down. I guess the photos gave me the impression that the water section was much much smaller.
> 
> I still believe that the water is a bit shallow, make sure that there is nothing pointy or sharp anywhere in the water, as Discus can and will scrape their sides badly if they are startled.
> 
> What kind of plecos do you have? Most of the common plecos will get huge, I personally would not risk keeping them with a Discus. You might want to look into Bristle Nose cats (Ancistrus) they stay small (around 5") and are commonly kept with Discus. They are a really cool little fish, a small herd would look great in your tank.
> 
> Ancistrus cf. cirrhosus • Loricariidae • Cat-eLog • PlanetCatfish
> 
> Peace
> Shawn


The water section is a little on the shallow side for Discus-hence keeping the number low. I only have one pleco- its a blue spot- stays rather small. The tank is designed for stingrays- no pointy objects and no plecos that will get big on suck the slime coat.


----------



## EverettC

Why are you gutting the left side, it looked good! Can we see some more full tank/progress shots for what you're working on? Nice discus btw, I love the pigeon bloods.

I borrowed a few of your ideas for a 65 gallon tank I'm working on at the moment (that probably won't be finished until summer seeing as how I'm heading back to school tomorrow morning), that I'll be posting as an advanced-vivarium "how to" like my old 75 was, I hope it does yours justice


----------



## Energy

EverettC said:


> Why are you gutting the left side, it looked good! Can we see some more full tank/progress shots for what you're working on? Nice discus btw, I love the pigeon bloods.
> 
> I borrowed a few of your ideas for a 65 gallon tank I'm working on at the moment (that probably won't be finished until summer seeing as how I'm heading back to school tomorrow morning), that I'll be posting as an advanced-vivarium "how to" like my old 75 was, I hope it does yours justice


Whoa,whoa,whoa, I have copyrighted all my ideas, The replication of any concept I have incorporating into the construction of my system will be taken as a compliment!

Which ideas did you use? I'd love to see your tank.

I gutted the left side four days ago. I just wrapped it up last night. Three solid days of work and I'm finally nearing completion. 

I redid this side for a few reasons: 
1. I wanted to expand the water section and increase the land section as well, Huh? How could that co-exist simultaneously you ask. I elevated the land section and created an underwater cave under the entire land section-similar to what I did on the right side. Now 100 % percent of the bottom of the vivarium is accessible as free swimming space to the fish. This way I'm utilizing all of the potential water section and land area inside the vivarium.

I created a sloping hill above the cave area which will give the frogs more usable land to roam. It still needs to be planted but then it's done. Pictures to follow.

2. I created and extended a second drip wall. I feel that although the drip walls off gas the CO2 for the plants they also biological clean the aquarium better than any other filtration system I have-hands down.

3. Optimizing the format of the land for the frogs was a priority. I now have a larger solid land area for the frogs to access. Although before I had land it wasn't set-up in an ideal way for the frogs. The new design will fit there needs better.


----------



## vivbulider

about the discus if he can keep 2 stingrays alive the discus will be fine rays are known as the hardist fw fish to keep but i still would worry about the pleco with the rays but other then that this is the best dart tank i've ever seen


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> about the discus if he can keep 2 stingrays alive the discus will be fine rays are known as the hardist fw fish to keep but i still would worry about the pleco with the rays but other then that this is the best dart tank i've ever seen


Wow thanks!


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## vivbulider

you should post this on mfk they would love it


----------



## fivecardskane

So you probably get this question all the time, but I am new to the PDF scene and was wondering how many different species of frogs do you have in there? I hear all the time you shouldn't mix the different species but I had a friend with a 72Lx12Wx18H tank with about 6 species together. He had about 18 frogs and was constantly selling off the froglets. He has since moved away and I have lost contact so I'm really looking in to every site trying to get started. Any info on how many you can fit in a 55g would be appreciated. 

Now on to the important statement, your tank is BOSS. That's all there is to say.


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## carbonetc

fivecardskane said:


> So you probably get this question all the time, but I am new to the PDF scene and was wondering how many different species of frogs do you have in there? I hear all the time you shouldn't mix the different species but I had a friend with a 72Lx12Wx18H tank with about 6 species together. He had about 18 frogs and was constantly selling off the froglets. He has since moved away and I have lost contact so I'm really looking in to every site trying to get started. Any info on how many you can fit in a 55g would be appreciated.
> 
> Now on to the important statement, your tank is BOSS. That's all there is to say.


Constantly selling potentially hybridized frogs? I think I just heard 20 board members' heads explode.

Or maybe you mean a dart frog species mixed with a tree frog species, etc.?


----------



## fivecardskane

No they were all dart frogs. This was about ten years ago, I was 14 and he was going out with my cousin, that's how I met him. Obviously the views on hybridized frogs has changed dramatically, cause I remember people actually waiting to buy frogs from him. If it matters at all, his tank was set up with physical boundaries, but nothing to actively separate the frogs, just large logs, pools of water etc. The frogs kept to their own most of the time, except for feeding, then they were constantly crossing into each others "territory". He also had a couple of geckos, although these were nocturnal and anoles, which kept mostly to themselves at the top of the tank.

I used to have pictures of the tank, but those have since been lost in the fold.

I used to stare at that tank for hours and I was hoping to recreate that in a home tank myself. Which is why I was asking about minimum tank size for housing several species. I am a "noob" to the PDF and I definitely do not want to do anything to jeopardize the hobby, so I'll take all the help I can get.


----------



## Energy

fivecardskane said:


> So you probably get this question all the time, but I am new to the PDF scene and was wondering how many different species of frogs do you have in there? I hear all the time you shouldn't mix the different species but I had a friend with a 72Lx12Wx18H tank with about 6 species together. He had about 18 frogs and was constantly selling off the froglets. He has since moved away and I have lost contact so I'm really looking in to every site trying to get started. Any info on how many you can fit in a 55g would be appreciated.
> 
> Now on to the important statement, your tank is BOSS. That's all there is to say.


Thanks for the compliments. I currently don't have any PDF's at all inside the system. I have some tincs and aurutus fattening up in a 55 gallon getting ready to go in. I am hoping they are big and strong enough to go into the soon soon. I realize my tank is not necessarily PDF safe. The water presents a very real hazard and therefore I have been waiting with my frogs to get a little size on them. On the other hand I have hiked the mountains and Jungles of Costa Rica many, many times and own over a hundred acres of rainforest in Agujas adjacent to Corcovado national Park. I have a river that abuts my land on one side and a small gold mining stream that cuts through my land. I have found many frogs in this area with one exception. All the Aurutus I have found in Costa Rica have been near the tops of the mountains in very hilly/rugged terrain, far from a water source.


----------



## Energy

carbonetc said:


> Constantly selling potentially hybridized frogs? I think I just heard 20 board members' heads explode.
> 
> Or maybe you mean a dart frog species mixed with a tree frog species, etc.?



Let's not turn this into one of those threads.




fivecardskane said:


> No they were all dart frogs. This was about ten years ago, I was 14 and he was going out with my cousin, that's how I met him. Obviously the views on hybridized frogs has changed dramatically, cause I remember people actually waiting to buy frogs from him. If it matters at all, his tank was set up with physical boundaries, but nothing to actively separate the frogs, just large logs, pools of water etc. The frogs kept to their own most of the time, except for feeding, then they were constantly crossing into each others "territory". He also had a couple of geckos, although these were nocturnal and anoles, which kept mostly to themselves at the top of the tank.
> 
> I used to have pictures of the tank, but those have since been lost in the fold.
> 
> I used to stare at that tank for hours and I was hoping to recreate that in a home tank myself. Which is why I was asking about minimum tank size for housing several species. I am a "noob" to the PDF and I definitely do not want to do anything to jeopardize the hobby, so I'll take all the help I can get.



Thanks for clarifying, if you need any help or advice just ask here or send me a PM. I would be glad to help.


----------



## nathan

How are the discus doing? Hows Kennys discus as far as pricing?


----------



## fivecardskane

That is awesome! I'm just trying to get started (I feel like a broken record) and I saw the thread, got interested and now I'm starting to think 55g is too small to house multiple species, which is a shame. Think I'll have to brow beat my girlfriend in to letting me have lots of tanks for the family. She isn't too thrilled with my hobby. Ever since I was attacked by a rather large Nile Monitor, she has been actively getting rid of my kids one at a time. I currently own two iguanas, three ball pythons, a peach throat monitor, a couple of Pacman frogs, and one very sweet black tree monitor named Louis.

I think the dart frogs might push her over the edge. But I can hope she lets me get them, I mean, they'll be in a tank haha . Keep me posted on how they do in your jungle.


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> How are the discus doing? Hows Kennys discus as far as pricing?



The discus are doing well. Eating and pairing off. For what you get Kenny's prices are good. I have never seen, in person, discus as nice as these at a pet store or anywhere else for that matter.


----------



## Energy

fivecardskane said:


> That is awesome! I'm just trying to get started (I feel like a broken record) and I saw the thread, got interested and now I'm starting to think 55g is too small to house multiple species, which is a shame. Think I'll have to brow beat my girlfriend in to letting me have lots of tanks for the family. She isn't too thrilled with my hobby. Ever since I was attacked by a rather large Nile Monitor, she has been actively getting rid of my kids one at a time. I currently own two iguanas, three ball pythons, a peach throat monitor, a couple of Pacman frogs, and one very sweet black tree monitor named Louis.
> 
> I think the dart frogs might push her over the edge. But I can hope she lets me get them, I mean, they'll be in a tank haha . Keep me posted on how they do in your jungle.


Well most people on this board are against mixing any species, at best I have heard some people say two species in one tank. They like to break them into arboreal species mixed with terrestrial species at best.


----------



## Viaje

Still looking great Energy! I'm not sure about the pygmy chameleons though, they're known pretty widely as being, well... clumsy. on chameleonforums.com (I'd recommend you ask their opinion first) I've seen a lot of people ask about keeping a pyg in an enclosure with water, and each time the keepers have decided that they would all almost inevitably drown.

They're fascinating and adorable little guys, but probably not meant to be around water.

http://www.chameleonforums.com/pygmy-paludarium-22797/


----------



## vivbulider

post some pics of the discus in the tank


----------



## Energy

Viaje said:


> Still looking great Energy! I'm not sure about the pygmy chameleons though, they're known pretty widely as being, well... clumsy. on chameleonforums.com (I'd recommend you ask their opinion first) I've seen a lot of people ask about keeping a pyg in an enclosure with water, and each time the keepers have decided that they would all almost inevitably drown.
> 
> They're fascinating and adorable little guys, but probably not meant to be around water.
> 
> Pygmy Paludarium - Chameleon Forums



Well I read through some of that- what a debate! It seems that no matter what a person does their will always be conflicting views.


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> post some pics of the discus in the tank


I will -just give me a little time.


----------



## weta

Wow this tank is AMAZING!
It was also awesome as a reef tank.

Dendroboard needs a tank of the month too.


----------



## Energy

weta said:


> Wow this tank is AMAZING!
> It was also awesome as a reef tank.
> 
> Dendroboard needs a tank of the month too.


Actually that's a great idea! I'm not saying mine should be but I know on other sites they have aquarium tank's of the month and that is usually a really popular feature. As far as I know if the dendroboard did this it would be the only place to have a vivarium/terrarium/palarium as a feature tank. 

I think it would be a pretty popular idea. 

Maybe we should take a poll or a vote about the idea and send it past the administrators?

That would be awesome to every month see how people build their systems and get a brief synopsis on how it was done.


----------



## EricB

I pretty much just sat here in awe for about 3 hours reading through this thread, closely observing all of the details in construction and pictures. This is more of a "natural" habitat than many zoos have on display!
I'm working on getting supplies to start building my many tanks up, but I doubt I'll ever own anything this spectacular.. 
This is hands down one of the most phenomenal works of art I've ever come across.


----------



## Energy

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## Energy

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## Energy

I gutted the left side of the tank the same as I did a month ago with the right side. The entire land mass is now elevated over the water area creating a cave underneath for the fish to swim and hide. Because of that now at least 95% of the bottom area of the tank is available to the fish. The only place the fish can't swim is where the rock touchs the bottom- everything else is elevated and open to the fish.

Another Change: I have recreated a thunderstorm inside the tank. Between 10-10:30 pm every night a thunder and lightning track plays which I have hooked up to a lightning controller(from firefly). The main lights turn off, moon lights come on and then two special lights hooked up to the lightning controller flash during the lightning strikes on the CD. The misting system is also timed to come on and off during the "storm" period.

I will probably have to eventually set-up a you-tube video to show the effects. I thought the entire"storm"idea would freak out the animals-especially the discus but on the contrary. Nothing seems to be effected by it. None of the animals have been spooked. 

Fish update:
The discus are pairing off and spawning-but they are eating the eggs-oh well. 
The stingray is getting massive. The discus do not seem to be fazed by the activities of the stingray. In fact the stingray can swim over the discus and even "top" them with out so much as a reaction.

Frogs have been put into the system. They use 100% of the space. I was very hesitant to place them inside-thinking it was a little to wild and dangerous -especially with all the water. 

So far the water hasn't effected them at all. The two seperate islands aren't actually connected. This means the left and right side land masses aren't joined. But the frogs have no problem getting back and forth. One frog in particular has made a home on top of the main waterfall as well.

I have had one frog escape and perish.

The natural food sources also seem to be a real treat. I have 4 different areas that I stick whole bananas and other fruit to attract and draw in fruit flies. These areas seem to be gathering areas for the frogs. 

I am also raising fruit flies so I can supply "enhanced-dusted" food.


----------



## Energy

EricB said:


> I pretty much just sat here in awe for about 3 hours reading through this thread, closely observing all of the details in construction and pictures. This is more of a "natural" habitat than many zoos have on display!
> I'm working on getting supplies to start building my many tanks up, but I doubt I'll ever own anything this spectacular..
> This is hands down one of the most phenomenal works of art I've ever come across.


Thank you- I appreciate that. Comments like that make this hobby even more enjoyable.


----------



## Energy

Two of the four places that I stick fruit to attract natural fruit flies are in the "formerly" overflows of the aquarium. From here the flies can naturally migrate into the system and breed without predation. When they get a little to prolific I use an idea borrowed from others here to collect them. I use this to catch the fruit flies. Then I pour them into a cup and sprinkle with dust which makes them flightless. They usually are stunned enough when I open the dustbuster that they won't fly away and I can get them into a collection cup to be dusted without to many escapees. This would make a great way to massively culture fruit flies outside. I place a window screen over the overflow.  This provides enough of a barrier to slow them down while they are trying to escape when I am vaccuming them up. The picture is from one day collecting-I got the same amount the day before from the same spot.[URL="







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## vivbulider

holy s**t best tank ever


----------



## EverettC

Great shots! Can we get pics of before and after you changed the left hand side of your tank?


----------



## EricB

Maybe the stingrays aren't exactly natural, but I can't really think of a more badass creature to be in a tank like this. Fish alone won't do it justice.. Did you end up getting the chameleons yet? This truely is one the most amazing things I've ever seen. I wish I lived closer, I'd love to take some pictures of it!!


----------



## nathan

EricB said:


> Maybe the stingrays aren't exactly natural, but I can't really think of a more badass creature to be in a tank like this. Fish alone won't do it justice.. Did you end up getting the chameleons yet? This truely is one the most amazing things I've ever seen. I wish I lived closer, I'd love to take some pictures of it!!


Why would you consider the stingrays not natural?


----------



## EricB

nathan said:


> Why would you consider the stingrays not natural?


I didn't think these guys lived in the middle of rainforests with the frogs and what not. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not positive. Honestly, up until reading through this I didn't even know these things lived in freshwater. I still have some research to do as I mentioned previously, but I've never seen anyone else using stingrays in a PDF enclosure..


----------



## nathan

There are quite a few freshwater stingrays that come from south america in waterways deep in the rainforest. I will have to look through this thread again to see what species he keeps. But I'm pretty sure it was one native to Peru.


----------



## EricB

nathan said:


> There are quite a few freshwater stingrays that come from south america in waterways deep in the rainforest. I will have to look through this thread again to see what species he keeps. But I'm pretty sure it was one native to Peru.



Well thanks for the info then, I learned something else yet again.
I never really looked into those since I don't really have anywhere to keep them, but it's pretty amazing to have a mixed species tank like this. Especially with the variety he has. 

I can't decide what species of frogs I want to get and I only have smaller tanks, something like this would make it possible to get two or three, maybe even more.. I wouldn't get this in depth with the water features, I know that for sure. It's a pain to keep it clear, especially with burrowing animals like stingrays. So props on that as well!


----------



## weta

vivbulider said:


> holy s**t best tank ever


that would be a better name for this thread.
I never noticed this thread because a. I don't have a large vivarium and b. I don't have any answers to questions regarding them.
I stumbled upon it by googling 'awesome paludarium'


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> holy s**t best tank ever


Haha- that's funny Thanks!



EverettC said:


> Great shots! Can we get pics of before and after you changed the left hand side of your tank?


I will see what I got and try to get them out to you.



EricB said:


> Maybe the stingrays aren't exactly natural, but I can't really think of a more badass creature to be in a tank like this. Fish alone won't do it justice.. Did you end up getting the chameleons yet? This truely is one the most amazing things I've ever seen. I wish I lived closer, I'd love to take some pictures of it!!


I am going with the pygmy chams. I have some on order and I am just waiting. Hopefully they aren't as clumsy as everyone says.



nathan said:


> There are quite a few freshwater stingrays that come from south america in waterways deep in the rainforest. I will have to look through this thread again to see what species he keeps. But I'm pretty sure it was one native to Peru.


My large ray is a leopoldi from brazil, the smaller one is a motoro.



EricB said:


> Well thanks for the info then, I learned something else yet again.
> I never really looked into those since I don't really have anywhere to keep them, but it's pretty amazing to have a mixed species tank like this. Especially with the variety he has.
> 
> I can't decide what species of frogs I want to get and I only have smaller tanks, something like this would make it possible to get two or three, maybe even more.. I wouldn't get this in depth with the water features, I know that for sure. It's a pain to keep it clear, especially with burrowing animals like stingrays. So props on that as well!


The water is Definately hard to keep clear. The ray does a great job of messing it up and adding a ton to the general bio-load. I'd say keeping the water clear is one of the biggest challenges all due to the ray's constant foraging.



weta said:


> that would be a better name for this thread.
> I never noticed this thread because a. I don't have a large vivarium and b. I don't have any answers to questions regarding them.
> I stumbled upon it by googling 'awesome paludarium'


I tried your search (awesome paludarium) and couldn't come up with my tank but man did I see a lot of nice systems.

I wonder if we could rename this thread "large vivarium construction" or something more descriptive so it might be more accessible to people unfamiliar with the Dendroboard and pop up easier for those doing a general google search.


----------



## komodoking

My Word

Man that's impressive, I wish I had the space,


----------



## Jellyman

I've heard of others setting up the thunderstorm and it always sounded really cool. Can you add some detail as to what it all involves? I'd love to add that feature to my setup someday. Can't wait to see the video of the thunderstorm in action.
Thanks


----------



## frankpayne32

First off, like everyone that has posted here has already said, what an amazing tank. Truly inspirational. I've just read every single post (that took awhile). You seem very much like a guy after my own interests. I have kept and bred many species of reptiles for most of my life and have gotten into reefs the past couple of years. I've been a Senior Herpetology Keeper in the past for a zoo and done consulting work at quite a few zoos and museums as well. I must say that your exhibit is much better than what most AZA zoos and aquariums have accomplished. If you've ever been to a zoo or museum and saw the exhibits: "Lizards and Snakes: Alive!", "Frogs: A Chorus of Colors", "Geckos: From Tails to Toepads", and "Reptiles: The Beautiful and the Deadly" I used to work (and still do during the summers when I'm not teaching) for the zoo that built and maintains all of those exhibits. I'm not just saying this to brag (well maybe a little) but just to hopefully add weight to my comments, especially about how great yours is. 

About the chameleons: I have bred and kept quite a few chameleons personally and professionally. Again, unfortunately, much of the advice you get on these boards is well-intentioned but often misinformed. Jackson's chameleons would do just fine in this type of exhibit. You could in fact keep a breeding pair of them in there. I would however add much more in the way of vines and branching plants. This will aid in the locomotion of the animals as well as provide visual barriers between conspecifics and with the front pane of acrylic (reflections). Also, about the leaf chameleons (Brookesia and Rhampholeon), they should NOT be kept in this exhibit. While they are amazing and hardy they WILL drown in water. They do not live near water in the wild and they will drown in it in a captive environment. I know this from personal experience. I have tried it on two separate occasions and they have all drowned. I will never do it again. I even had one slip into and drown in a bromeliad axil!

About the snakes: you CAN keep an Emerald Tree Boa in this exhibit. Many here have expressed concerns about them eating frogs. I have kept them personally and professionally with darts and eyelash vipers for years with not one single incident. Also, people have expressed concern about them trampling plants. This is extremely unwarranted. This is one of the most sedentary snake species in the world. And while they may occasionally knock down a plant or two, keeping one far outweighs this small problem (in my opinion of course). There may be an issue with them eating lizards though. As to which is more important to you: this is entirely your decision and preference. 

On mixed species exhibits and keeping several species of dart frog together: my opinions and experiences are very much in contention with the general opinion of the public that keeps darts. I would submit though (before everyone jumps down my throat) that my experiences are both professional as well as personal and extend over many years with many different species and exhibits. I have kept many different species of dart frogs together for years with success. As long as the enclosure is big enough, stratified properly, and there is an abundance of food there is no harm in doing so! If people are concerned about crossing different localities...this is done all the time in captive animals as well as plants and no one seems to be concerned about that but with darts everyone is up in arms. As long as true localities are maintained and these "hybrids" are not released into the wild there is no environmental impact. In fact, in my experience, mixed species exhibits of darts don't produce much in the way of viable offspring due to competition.

I apologize for the book I just added to your thread but after reading the ENTIRE thread I just couldn't help myself from commenting. What an amazing exhibit and home you have! I will be tagging along in this thread from here on. I hope my advice is helpful and you obviously don't need much. I look forward to seeing your amazing display evolve over time.

Best regards,
Frank


----------



## vivbulider

What about a atb don't get as big as etbs won't knock down as much also lower price tag


----------



## zBrinks

I believe an ATB would view some of the inhabitants as food.


----------



## frankpayne32

zBrinks said:


> I believe an ATB would view some of the inhabitants as food.


I agree with that.


----------



## crestedchris

As many people have said before. This vivarium is absolutely one of the finest pieces of art that I have ever seen. In reguards to a post on discus and what other fish to put into the tank I do have a couple sugestions.

1.Plecos- They are amazing with keeping glass clean. I suggest ancistrus cirrhosus.

2.Plain common guppies - Why? they breed like like crazy and the fry can be eaten by the discus. I learned this trick from my dad who used to raise discus. Plus some of the common guppies have awsome colors.

3.Northobrachius Rachovii. They will breed like crazy and you may get fry if your water quality is good. I know they usually need a dry period but i have success with water incubation. The reason i suggest rachovii is because i believe they would look absolutely stunning in the tank. 

I hope this helps =)

p.s. Did you impregnate the dirt with red worms, grindal worms, or spring tails? i found doing this is good for the plants. Just dont overdo it cause then you will end up with 15 feet of vermi compost lol.


----------



## Energy

komodoking said:


> My Word
> 
> Man that's impressive, I wish I had the space,


Thank you!



Jellyman said:


> I've heard of others setting up the thunderstorm and it always sounded really cool. Can you add some detail as to what it all involves? I'd love to add that feature to my setup someday. Can't wait to see the video of the thunderstorm in action.
> Thanks



I used a unit from Lights-alive called the firefly or FF101. It's an electronic regulator that controls standard lights to flash in unison with a thunderstorm soundtrack. I picked up the simplest unit but on hindset wanted one that would control the lighting from two different directions. I contact them and they agreed to exchange the unit out for me-no problem. I am very impressed with their customer service and the units themselves are built incredibly well.


----------



## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> First off, like everyone that has posted here has already said, what an amazing tank. Truly inspirational. I've just read every single post (that took awhile). You seem very much like a guy after my own interests. I have kept and bred many species of reptiles for most of my life and have gotten into reefs the past couple of years. I've been a Senior Herpetology Keeper in the past for a zoo and done consulting work at quite a few zoos and museums as well. I must say that your exhibit is much better than what most AZA zoos and aquariums have accomplished. If you've ever been to a zoo or museum and saw the exhibits: "Lizards and Snakes: Alive!", "Frogs: A Chorus of Colors", "Geckos: From Tails to Toepads", and "Reptiles: The Beautiful and the Deadly" I used to work (and still do during the summers when I'm not teaching) for the zoo that built and maintains all of those exhibits. I'm not just saying this to brag (well maybe a little) but just to hopefully add weight to my comments, especially about how great yours is.
> 
> About the chameleons: I have bred and kept quite a few chameleons personally and professionally. Again, unfortunately, much of the advice you get on these boards is well-intentioned but often misinformed. Jackson's chameleons would do just fine in this type of exhibit. You could in fact keep a breeding pair of them in there. I would however add much more in the way of vines and branching plants. This will aid in the locomotion of the animals as well as provide visual barriers between conspecifics and with the front pane of acrylic (reflections). Also, about the leaf chameleons (Brookesia and Rhampholeon), they should NOT be kept in this exhibit. While they are amazing and hardy they WILL drown in water. They do not live near water in the wild and they will drown in it in a captive environment. I know this from personal experience. I have tried it on two separate occasions and they have all drowned. I will never do it again. I even had one slip into and drown in a bromeliad axil!
> 
> About the snakes: you CAN keep an Emerald Tree Boa in this exhibit. Many here have expressed concerns about them eating frogs. I have kept them personally and professionally with darts and eyelash vipers for years with not one single incident. Also, people have expressed concern about them trampling plants. This is extremely unwarranted. This is one of the most sedentary snake species in the world. And while they may occasionally knock down a plant or two, keeping one far outweighs this small problem (in my opinion of course). There may be an issue with them eating lizards though. As to which is more important to you: this is entirely your decision and preference.
> 
> On mixed species exhibits and keeping several species of dart frog together: my opinions and experiences are very much in contention with the general opinion of the public that keeps darts. I would submit though (before everyone jumps down my throat) that my experiences are both professional as well as personal and extend over many years with many different species and exhibits. I have kept many different species of dart frogs together for years with success. As long as the enclosure is big enough, stratified properly, and there is an abundance of food there is no harm in doing so! If people are concerned about crossing different localities...this is done all the time in captive animals as well as plants and no one seems to be concerned about that but with darts everyone is up in arms. As long as true localities are maintained and these "hybrids" are not released into the wild there is no environmental impact. In fact, in my experience, mixed species exhibits of darts don't produce much in the way of viable offspring due to competition.
> 
> I apologize for the book I just added to your thread but after reading the ENTIRE thread I just couldn't help myself from commenting. What an amazing exhibit and home you have! I will be tagging along in this thread from here on. I hope my advice is helpful and you obviously don't need much. I look forward to seeing your amazing display evolve over time.
> 
> Best regards,
> Frank


Frank-

Where have you been, haha. This is the information I was looking for. I have gotten a ton of great advice from everybody here but I like how you have presented it. Unfortunately I already have the pygmy chams- and now I am as nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

I spent the last few days creating an aboreal highway for the chams and lizards. A network of connections from one side of the tank to the other. So far the pygmies stay on the back wall. All are doing well up to this point, and hopefully will stay that way.

I plan on avoiding the ETB or ATB. I work daily on the tank(for fun) and that means I hang upside down placing everything. Last thing I need to worry about is getting bit while hanging upside down, it would suck enough getting bit right side up, haha!

To be honest to one and all- the display is a mixed exhibit. If any cross breeding occurs it will never go outside my house. Furthermore I have watched for aggression-zero, zip none. I worried that this may happen and have been watching to see if I would need to intervene. 

I kept PDF back in the early 90's when they were extremely hard to come by. I have experience with them but not in an enclosure of this size. 

The behaviors I am witnessing are totally unpredicted. 

For one they are utilizing almost every square inch of the system. Two tincs have taken up residence on the waterfall cliffs. These are the vertical spaces that have a sheer drop into the water. I photo'd another tinc climbing the branches above the water-while I am working in the system. 

Oddly to this date I have not noticed a single act of aggression. The natural food sources also help to keep everything interested and hunting.


----------



## Energy

crestedchris said:


> As many people have said before. This vivarium is absolutely one of the finest pieces of art that I have ever seen. In reguards to a post on discus and what other fish to put into the tank I do have a couple sugestions.
> 
> 1.Plecos- They are amazing with keeping glass clean. I suggest ancistrus cirrhosus.
> 
> 2.Plain common guppies - Why? they breed like like crazy and the fry can be eaten by the discus. I learned this trick from my dad who used to raise discus. Plus some of the common guppies have awsome colors.
> 
> 3.Northobrachius Rachovii. They will breed like crazy and you may get fry if your water quality is good. I know they usually need a dry period but i have success with water incubation. The reason i suggest rachovii is because i believe they would look absolutely stunning in the tank.
> 
> I hope this helps =)
> 
> p.s. Did you impregnate the dirt with red worms, grindal worms, or spring tails? i found doing this is good for the plants. Just dont overdo it cause then you will end up with 15 feet of vermi compost lol.



I actually do have a breeding colony of guppies in the system, for a flash of color and a natural food source for the discus and stingrays. I am slowly losing the colony so I will need to re-establish it soon. I use siamese algae eaters versus pleco's. Pleco's have a tendancy to eat the slime coat off the stingrays-SAE's don't bother them. I have witnessed one guppy which does feed off the slime coat of the discus(ODD!)


Northobrachius Rachovii- I have been considering killifish but the size and speed of many of them would make them an excellent food source versus a display fish.

I impregnated the original system with red wrigglers and springtails but probably lost them all during the two major remodels. I will not be putting anything but springtails back in. I do not really have a substrate depth any more. In fact the second land section only has a coir substrate depth of about 2 inches. Enough to grow Riccia.

The natural food source I am cultivating inside the system are flying fruit flies-yep they fly. I simply place a banana inside the system and leave it there to rot.(I have 4 places in the tank designed to do this-that are out of view). At anytime you can witness fruit flies buzzing around and animals hunting them. Gecko's, chams, frogs, and anoles, it increases the activity level inside the system. 

The frogs especially love them. They are constantly hunting the flies.


----------



## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> Frank-
> 
> Where have you been, haha. This is the information I was looking for. I have gotten a ton of great advice from everybody here but I like how you have presented it. Unfortunately I already have the pygmy chams- and now I am as nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
> 
> I spent the last few days creating an aboreal highway for the chams and lizards. A network of connections from one side of the tank to the other. So far the pygmies stay on the back wall. All are doing well up to this point, and hopefully will stay that way.
> 
> I plan on avoiding the ETB or ATB. I work daily on the tank(for fun) and that means I hang upside down placing everything. Last thing I need to worry about is getting bit while hanging upside down, it would suck enough getting bit right side up, haha!
> 
> To be honest to one and all- the display is a mixed exhibit. If any cross breeding occurs it will never go outside my house. Furthermore I have watched for aggression-zero, zip none. I worried that this may happen and have been watching to see if I would need to intervene.
> 
> I kept PDF back in the early 90's when they were extremely hard to come by. I have experience with them but not in an enclosure of this size.
> 
> The behaviors I am witnessing are totally unpredicted.
> 
> For one they are utilizing almost every square inch of the system. Two tincs have taken up residence on the waterfall cliffs. These are the vertical spaces that have a sheer drop into the water. I photo'd another tinc climbing the branches above the water-while I am working in the system.
> 
> Oddly to this date I have not noticed a single act of aggression. The natural food sources also help to keep everything interested and hunting.



I too wish I had found this thread before, for my own sake . I hope the false chameleons work out for you. Perhaps since this is such a large enclosure they will naturally stay away from the water areas. I hope you have better luck than I did. What species did you get? _R. brevicaudatus_ I assume?

I know what you are saying about the snakes. I remember servicing a rear access Amazonia exhibit that had a large ETB in it. The opening was small and I had to completely lean in to clean the front glass, my face inches from the snake's. Quite scary since they have extremely long teeth meant for penetrating the thick feathers of birds. They aren't called _caninus_ for nothing!

I'm glad you are making this into a varied mixed species exhibit. It is the most challenging and rewarding thing to do in animal husbandry. Many people assume that because it is not easily done that it should not be done. And while I do agree that it is not meant for a beginner it can be done quite successfully and responsibly if enough thought and attention are applied.

I'm glad your darts are doing well. I bet you will continue to see no aggression. You could keep quite a few more if you desire. I have regularly kept 20-25 darts representing about six species in an exhibit one-third of this size and still had a very healthy group of frogs. 

Can't wait to see more!

Frank


----------



## rmelancon

Just a quick note on aggression in PDFs that can apply to other animals as well. Just because you don't see frogs physically fighting one another does not necessarily mean that there is not intimidation and aggression taking place. The stress an animal is undergoing from being "dominated", crowded, etc. is not always something you will notice right away or ever. Just food for thought. Hope all the animals do well.


----------



## Jellyman

rmelancon said:


> Just a quick note on aggression in PDFs that can apply to other animals as well. Just because you don't see frogs physically fighting one another does not necessarily mean that there is not intimidation and aggression taking place. The stress an animal is undergoing from being "dominated", crowded, etc. is not always something you will notice right away or ever. Just food for thought. Hope all the animals do well.


And this is the same for everyone that keeps multiple frogs in a single species enclosure. Are you posting this advice in single species posts as well?


----------



## Jellyman

The tank looks great. I had no doubt that someone with your background in reef keeping would be able to keep a successfully mixed enclosure. Post some pics of the frogs!

What type and quantity have you started with?


----------



## rmelancon

I'm certainly not casting doubt on anyone's abilities I just see too many times where people think everything is great and think there is no aggresion becuase they don't see any fighting. I have a huge (5' X 5' X 4' which is still tiny compared to the animals natural range, but I digress) enclosure with 4 animals same species and I think I have been watching the thing like a hawk. This has been set up for almost 2 years now and I saw fighting for the first time this week (two males). Now has this been going on the entire time? Probably and I just never caught it because most of the time the submissive animal is hiding in a bromeliad somewhere. I always wondered why I mostly only saw three animals and this is probably the reason. Again, clearly Energy knows what he is doing and has plenty of experience, just bringing up a point that many people don't realize. Some aggression you will miss and some you will never see even if you could watch the tank 24x7 because stress is something you may never notice until the animal is suddenly missing.


----------



## frankpayne32

rmelancon said:


> I'm certainly not casting doubt on anyone's abilities I just see too many times where people think everything is great and think there is no aggresion becuase they don't see any fighting. I have a huge (5' X 5' X 4' which is still tiny compared to the animals natural range, but I digress) enclosure with 4 animals same species and I think I have been watching the thing like a hawk. This has been set up for almost 2 years now and I saw fighting for the first time this week (two males). Now has this been going on the entire time? Probably and I just never caught it because most of the time the submissive animal is hiding in a bromeliad somewhere. I always wondered why I mostly only saw three animals and this is probably the reason. Again, clearly Energy knows what he is doing and has plenty of experience, just bringing up a point that many people don't realize. Some aggression you will miss and some you will never see even if you could watch the tank 24x7 because stress is something you may never notice until the animal is suddenly missing.


Very good advice. Aggression in dart frogs is usually not overt, just as you said. It takes awhile to develop the eye for it to make sure it doesn't progress to a dangerous point.


----------



## Jellyman

That certainly makes sense. I guess my take on aggression may be slightly different when it comes to larger enclosures. I do not feel an occasional tussle is call for concern. Now if one frog is continuously chasing another then some intervention would be called for. In such a large enclosure that is so well planted and terrained the frogs should be able to seperate themselves as needed but there is always the chance.


----------



## vivbulider

you should get leaf fish they might pic off a few small fish 

Leaf Fish, Oddballs | Pet Solutions


----------



## nathan

vivbulider said:


> you should get leaf fish they might pic off a few small fish
> 
> Leaf Fish, Oddballs | Pet Solutions


His rays would eat them


----------



## vivbulider

Are you sure the leaf fish never leave the top and the rays rarely leave the bottom


----------



## nathan

Rays leave the bottom all the time especially at night when they are active and hunting.

Anything that can fit in there mouth they will eat

During the day my motoros spend alot of time swimming all over the place top or bottom.


----------



## Energy

Yeah-my leo occasionally swims upside on the waters surface hunting guppies. Now he has also taken to squirting water onto the land areas to knock off crickets and eat them. It's fascinating to witness.


----------



## vivbulider

but they would look gr8 in this tank


----------



## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> I'm glad you are making this into a varied mixed species exhibit. It is the most challenging and rewarding thing to do in animal husbandry. Many people assume that because it is not easily done that it should not be done. And while I do agree that it is not meant for a beginner it can be done quite successfully and responsibly if enough thought and attention are applied.
> 
> I'm glad your darts are doing well. I bet you will continue to see no aggression. You could keep quite a few more if you desire. I have regularly kept 20-25 darts representing about six species in an exhibit one-third of this size and still had a very healthy group of frogs.
> 
> Can't wait to see more!
> 
> Frank


I really don't have many frogs in the system. I have 11 frogs total in a 1700 gallon system. So this could be why their is little "noticeable" aggression. Part of the peculiar behavior is the frogs bed down together and tend to stay together for the most part. Of course they do venture solo but oftentimes they can be found hanging out in clumps.


----------



## vivbulider

what do you have in the tank


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> what do you have in the tank


On the land:
Poison dart Frogs, Anoles, gecko's,pygmy chameleons.

Water:
Stingrays, Discus, black ghost knife fish, rope fish, rummy nose tetras, cardinal tetra's, SAE's, one pleco.


----------



## maxdendros

What kind of geckos?


----------



## Energy

maxdendros said:


> What kind of geckos?


A williams day gecko-electric blue and a uroplitanus phantasticus(spelling?)


----------



## maxdendros

Energy said:


> A williams day gecko-electric blue and a uroplitanus phantasticus(spelling?)


That's sweet!


----------



## vivbulider

And what kind of PDF


----------



## Viaje

Keep a very close eye on that Phant, if you notice any signs of stress I'd give him a ficus or something with smaller branches, I don't really see any things in your vivarium that are Phantasticus-like plants. They seem to prefer smaller branches and perches. It's very common to use ficus and pothos.


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> And what kind of PDF


Tincs,2 luecs and 2 green and black. I think their are 10 maybe 11 total frogs.




Viaje said:


> Keep a very close eye on that Phant, if you notice any signs of stress I'd give him a ficus or something with smaller branches, I don't really see any things in your vivarium that are Phantasticus-like plants. They seem to prefer smaller branches and perches. It's very common to use ficus and pothos.


Since those photo's I have added a lot of structure for climbing-etc. The Phant had shipping stress and I am worried about recovery. Although they are nocturnal I haven't noticed any movement. Day and night it stays in the same area.


----------



## zBrinks

Is this a WC or CB phant? What temps are it exposed to in the vivarium?


----------



## frankpayne32

Stan,
If you didn't already before you put the phantasticus in the display, I would remove them to a small cage(10 gallons) with nothing but branches, pothos clipping, and paper towel substrate. Keep the temps in the mid to high 70s and mist heavily. Feed as many quarter inch crickets as they will eat nightly. I would do this for one month or until you are confident they are healthy. Uroplatus phantasticus are slow to acclimate but are hardy once settled. High temps stress them easily. Do not be overly concerned about sedentary behavior though, they have very limited ranges in the wild (one bush). Best of luck!
Frank


----------



## Energy

zBrinks said:


> Is this a WC or CB phant? What temps are it exposed to in the vivarium?


I bought it as a captive raised specimen.


----------



## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> Stan,
> If you didn't already before you put the phantasticus in the display, I would remove them to a small cage(10 gallons) with nothing but branches, pothos clipping, and paper towel substrate. Keep the temps in the mid to high 70s and mist heavily. Feed as many quarter inch crickets as they will eat nightly. I would do this for one month or until you are confident they are healthy. Uroplatus phantasticus are slow to acclimate but are hardy once settled. High temps stress them easily. Do not be overly concerned about sedentary behavior though, they have very limited ranges in the wild (one bush). Best of luck!
> Frank


Temps vary inside the system as I do have a basking light to raise the ambient temp in one small area. I mist heavily 5 times during the day-on a timer and then 20 minutes at night after the lights go out. I have lot's of crickets available and I am hoping he comes through.

Thanks

Stan


----------



## Chad Vossen

stan, i just saw your pictures of the fruit flies in the dust buster. 

you should put the dust buster in the fridge for a minute to chill the flies. they will go to sleep when they get cold. 

well, i do this for house flies, and i assume it'd be the same for fruit flies.

i wouldn't mind coming over again to see all the changes . let me know if you have a weekend or something open


----------



## davecalk

armagedon48 said:


> stan, i just saw your pictures of the fruit flies in the dust buster.
> 
> you should put the dust buster in the fridge for a minute to chill the flies. they will go to sleep when they get cold.
> 
> well, i do this for house flies, and i assume it'd be the same for fruit flies.


Yes, putting FFs in the refrigerator will knock them out for a bit making fliers easier to manage and feed.


----------



## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> Temps vary inside the system as I do have a basking light to raise the ambient temp in one small area. I mist heavily 5 times during the day-on a timer and then 20 minutes at night after the lights go out. I have lot's of crickets available and I am hoping he comes through.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stan


Sounds like you are doing everything right, I wouldn't worry too much. If the animal was healthy enough starting out it should thrive in your system.


----------



## Energy

armagedon48 said:


> stan, i just saw your pictures of the fruit flies in the dust buster.
> 
> you should put the dust buster in the fridge for a minute to chill the flies. they will go to sleep when they get cold.
> 
> well, i do this for house flies, and i assume it'd be the same for fruit flies.
> 
> i wouldn't mind coming over again to see all the changes . let me know if you have a weekend or something open


I will be home next weekend. Come on over!



davecalk said:


> Yes, putting FFs in the refrigerator will knock them out for a bit making fliers easier to manage and feed.


I love this board! That's a great idea and how I will do it in the future. 



frankpayne32 said:


> Sounds like you are doing everything right, I wouldn't worry too much. If the animal was healthy enough starting out it should thrive in your system.



Thanks, I am watching him. I ordered 1000 small crickets and placed them in the system. Plenty of food for him now.


----------



## rollinkansas

It might be too late now but I thought from the beginning that this tank had caribbean/cuban Anolis sp. written all over it.My buddy in germany keeps some species of anolis with darts and both thrive and breed, granted in larger enclosures. Just maybe something to think about in the future. They are day active and some certainly rival darts in coloration.


----------



## Energy

rollinkansas said:


> It might be too late now but I thought from the beginning that this tank had caribbean/cuban Anolis sp. written all over it.My buddy in germany keeps some species of anolis with darts and both thrive and breed, granted in larger enclosures. Just maybe something to think about in the future. They are day active and some certainly rival darts in coloration.


I have the common green anole(carolinus?) and the brown anole species that is the more common counterpart(different species-forget the name). I thought about the Cuban Anole but their size is daunting - they would be large enough to snack on a frog.


----------



## rollinkansas

Energy said:


> I have the common green anole(carolinus?) and the brown anole species that is the more common counterpart(different species-forget the name). I thought about the Cuban Anole but their size is daunting - they would be large enough to snack on a frog.


The common green and brown anole are much more boring than the ones I would have recommended to you.


























etc, etc


----------



## Energy

rollinkansas said:


> The common green and brown anole are much more boring than the ones I would have recommended to you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> etc, etc



Alright- those are awesome. But where can I get them?


----------



## nathan

Theres a guy on kingsnake that posted rare anoles every so often

also did you put all 1000 crickets in there at once???


----------



## Energy

nathan said:


> Theres a guy on kingsnake that posted rare anoles every so often
> 
> also did you put all 1000 crickets in there at once???


Thanks- I checked Kingsnake -no luck.

Yep I actually put 2 thousand in. They migrate into the overflows where the fruit is kept and slowly creep out over days and weeks.


----------



## rollinkansas

Send me a PM with what species you are interested in and I can help you out.

This is a good starting point:

Father Sanchez's Web Site of West Indian Natural History click the Anoles link on the left.


----------



## nathan

Did you treat the anoles before you put them in your system?

If I remember the guy that posts them I'll let you know. Or if I see them . . .


----------



## rollinkansas

nathan said:


> Did you treat the anoles before you put them in your system?
> 
> If I remember the guy that posts them I'll let you know. Or if I see them . . .


The guy shares the same name as you and posts on KS and GU pretty often.


----------



## nathan

Lol I knew it was something familiar . . .


----------



## vivbulider

What type Anoles are they


----------



## Energy

rollinkansas said:


> Send me a PM with what species you are interested in and I can help you out.
> 
> This is a good starting point:
> 
> Father Sanchez's Web Site of West Indian Natural History click the Anoles link on the left.


Thanks! I checked out the website. Great info!


----------



## boricorso

Just wanted to say, WOW..... What a beauty if only i could have something like it.

You have inspiered me to try and build a Paludarium. I have an area in my new home (under the stairs) that can fit a 15 square feet enclosure with hights between 24 and upwards to 36-40 inches.

Thanks for all the info and great pictures....I can only hope mine will be half as gorgeous as yours.


----------



## vivbulider

they have them on kingsnake but 450 a pair ouch


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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The PDF definately are comfortable climbing the branch work I have put in for the chameleons.

I have pygmy chams and a pair of Jackson's in the system.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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The Leo is now about 12 inches or so. Eating 5 silversides per day.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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I bought the motoro as an ugly duckling but the spots are starting to color up nicely. The discus are responding well to the "naturose" I sprinkle into their food and the PDF's as well. I am now switching to "superpig" from Rephashy for the fish and frogs to assist with coloring.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







[/URL] 

I plan on adding more branch work to this side over the water section. FYI- The Jackson's and the PDF both seem to be OK with all the water. I have seen the Jackson's voluntarily entering the water to cross to reach a branch. One of the Luec's jumps into the water every morning-swims to the glass and climbs up.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







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[URL="







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A view of some of the branch work I added for the chameleons.


----------



## frogface

amazing...


----------



## Energy

boricorso said:


> Just wanted to say, WOW..... What a beauty if only i could have something like it.
> 
> You have inspiered me to try and build a Paludarium. I have an area in my new home (under the stairs) that can fit a 15 square feet enclosure with hights between 24 and upwards to 36-40 inches.
> 
> Thanks for all the info and great pictures....I can only hope mine will be half as gorgeous as yours.


I am glad the system could inspire you. Have fun with it! I have changed mine several times now before I go to this point and I bet I will change it some more.



vivbulider said:


> they have them on kingsnake but 450 a pair ouch


To rich for my blood.


----------



## chinoanoah

Big ups, Energy!


----------



## Energy

frogface said:


> amazing...


Thank you!


----------



## Energy

chinoanoah said:


> Big ups, Energy!



Thanks, chinoanoah!


----------



## Julio

looks great, however dont' be surprise if the jackson's start to take out the darts, not a good conbination.


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> looks great, however dont' be surprise if the jackson's start to take out the darts, not a good conbination.


I am going to keep an eye on them. I have heard so much both ways. I have heard reasons to not keep them and also heard from people who have done it sucessfully.


----------



## maxdendros

Can we get a Full Tank Shot?


----------



## Energy

Can we get a Full Tank Shot?[/QUOTE]

I can't get any details in because of the length.


----------



## Energy

[URL="







[/URL]

End view.
[URL="







[/URL]


----------



## curious_kitty

wow,,, just realized you were the person who made that gigantic vivarium. I remember few months back when I was browsing the forum, and I was thinking it was the coolest tank i've seen! I got the idea on building on into the slot after i saw your built-in tank!!! OMG, you were the 'Energy' guy that I checked out earlier on!!!great to meet you! I can't believe you also checked out my tat, and thought was cool! this is the coolest~~!!!


----------



## frankpayne32

Julio said:


> looks great, however dont' be surprise if the jackson's start to take out the darts, not a good conbination.


That is EXTREMELY unlikely...that would only ever happen with very young frogs or thumbnails. Even then, I would be very surprised.


----------



## Energy

curious_kitty said:


> wow,,, just realized you were the person who made that gigantic vivarium. I remember few months back when I was browsing the forum, and I was thinking it was the coolest tank i've seen! I got the idea on building on into the slot after i saw your built-in tank!!! OMG, you were the 'Energy' guy that I checked out earlier on!!!great to meet you! I can't believe you also checked out my tat, and thought was cool! this is the coolest~~!!!


Your tank is starting out incredibly. They are a process that morphs and takes awhile. In fact I usually won't let people even (personally) see mine until after a year!

I documented the construction here because of all the great advice!


----------



## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> That is EXTREMELY unlikely...that would only ever happen with very young frogs or thumbnails. Even then, I would be very surprised.


I've kept Veiled Cham's with darts way back when and didn't have any problems. The Jackson's are much better in the system than the pygmies. Thanks for the advice!


----------



## sleepi

Awesome tank. Is there a video of the thunderstorm setup?


----------



## nathan

Nice updates with the pics ! You should make it at leasat a weekly thing 

What food are you adding the nutrarose to for your discus?


----------



## wimvanvelzen

One amazing tank! I have seen it before on this board but still surprises me in its size and quality!


----------



## frankpayne32

Stan, hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread a little bit but I thought you'd find this interesting. I was working at the zoo yesterday and this is the latest exhibit the crew is working on. It is 10' long, 3' wide, and 4' tall. It will house a mix of dart frogs and tree frogs. There are two water features on either side of the exhibit as well and about thirty pots for plants.










Here in this picture you can see a "termite nest" constructed on the central buttress root tree. This houses the environmental sensors which are controlled by a Profilux controller.


----------



## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> I've kept Veiled Cham's with darts way back when and didn't have any problems. The Jackson's are much better in the system than the pygmies. Thanks for the advice!


I'm glad you did, montane/non-aggressive species are ideal for your system. Any chance of seeing some pics of the jackson's cruising around the tank?


----------



## Energy

sleepi said:


> Awesome tank. Is there a video of the thunderstorm setup?


I am still trying to get it just right. I swapped out controllers so the lights flash now from different directions to simulate multiple strikes. I need to get a different light bulb/ setup to get a white light versus a tan light.




nathan said:


> Nice updates with the pics ! You should make it at leasat a weekly thing
> 
> 
> What food are you adding the nutrarose to for your discus?


I'd just bore you. I like to wait until there is something significant to show.

The Discus/stingrays all the fish get beefheart mixed with spirulina, bloodworms, Freshwater mysis-soaked in garlic and selcon-daily. I am now adding rephashy "superpig" mixed with my own Naturose supply to further enhance color.



wimvanvelzen said:


> One amazing tank! I have seen it before on this board but still surprises me in its size and quality!


Thank you.


----------



## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> Stan, hope you don't mind me hijacking the thread a little bit but I thought you'd find this interesting. I was working at the zoo yesterday and this is the latest exhibit the crew is working on. It is 10' long, 3' wide, and 4' tall. It will house a mix of dart frogs and tree frogs. There are two water features on either side of the exhibit as well and about thirty pots for plants.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here in this picture you can see a "termite nest" constructed on the central buttress root tree. This houses the environmental sensors which are controlled by a Profilux controller.


OK that's just plain awesome. I am guessing that is an artificial buttress roots and vines. Who-ever did that is a master. I'd love to see more details of that baby-as I am sure most people would. Keep it coming.



frankpayne32 said:


> I'm glad you did, montane/non-aggressive species are ideal for your system. Any chance of seeing some pics of the jackson's cruising around the tank?


They seem to love the tank. I will try and get some pics. I got them as juvies from Florida Chameleons and I am very happy. 

Question. I have now placed a screen vesus glass top over one of the four openings in the system. Over this I have a basking light and UVB light. The other openings and the entire top are enclosed to keep humidity higher as most animals in the system require it. 

Will one area be enough for UVB concentration? I have a large tree in this spot so multiple animals can hang out without interfering with each other, but it is the only place in the system that provides UVB.

As many people may or may not know- UVB will not penetrate light or acrylic. To provide more areas of UVB in the system will mean sacrificing humidity control as I will have to replace a solid top with a screen top.


----------



## frankpayne32

I will pass the praise along. The guy that did this one is a very good friend of mine and is indeed a master of habitat design and dart frog care. In addition to being a great friend he has taught me most of what I know about keeping dart frogs. Yes, all of what you see is artificial and fabriacted using fiberglass. The company, Peeling Productions, has quickly and rather quietly become the absolute leader in habitat design for small to medium sized exhibits in museums and zoos. I will add other pictures when I find some on my computer.

As far as the chameleons and UV...I would try to add another spot for the light if you can, although you may be ok with just one. What are you using for UV? If you are using fluorescent tubes keep in mind the animals must be within one foot of the light source or it is pretty much useless. Much more efficient are mercury vapor bulbs designed to produce both UV and heat. Here is the site of the best brand but there are others that will work: Welcome To ReptileUV - Mega-Ray® UVB lamps for reptile lighting worldwide Just keep an eye on the chameleons, if all individuals are using the basking site without aggression I would not bother adding another. If you notice that one never basks then it may be a good idea to add one.


----------



## frankpayne32

Here are some pics of my old 55 gallon which I have since sold. In that tank I kept 5 solid orange galactonotus, a pair of gold dust day geckos, a pair of cat geckos, and fresh water dwarf puffers (except the puffers). All of the animals reproduced in the tank. I really need to start building another one...I'm getting the itch again. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask. Again, Stan, if I'm hijacking your thread feel free to put me in my place!

FTS:









Waterfall:


















Gold dust day gecko:


----------



## frankpayne32

Here are more pics of the zoo's exhibits. This is from the Geckos: Tails to Toepads. If you're ever around a museum that has that exhibit check it out. The fabrication team did an amazing job. And I happened to write most of the graphics for those exhibits  .


----------



## SunSchein89

frankpayne32 said:


> Here are more pics of the zoo's exhibits. This is from the Geckos: Tails to Toepads. If you're ever around a museum that has that exhibit check it out. The fabrication team did an amazing job. And I happened to write most of the graphics for those exhibits  .


Did that exhibit happen to ever pass through the academy of natural science in Philadelphia? The name sounds very familiar and I'm pretty sure I saw it there. If it wasn't that specific exhibit it was one very similar at least.


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## frankpayne32

Yes, this exhibit was there. Also, we have sent our Frogs and Reptiles exhibit there.


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## curious_kitty

I really really like the one with huge face on the wall! What kind of museum do you have to go to see these??? I live in Boston, and no idea where one would go to see these cool exhibits.


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## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> Here are some pics of my old 55 gallon which I have since sold. In that tank I kept 5 solid orange galactonotus, a pair of gold dust day geckos, a pair of cat geckos, and fresh water dwarf puffers (except the puffers). All of the animals reproduced in the tank. I really need to start building another one...I'm getting the itch again. If anyone has any questions feel free to ask. Again, Stan, if I'm hijacking your thread feel free to put me in my place!
> 
> FTS:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Waterfall:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gold dust day gecko:


Outstanding! I love that whole tank shot. It shows the unique details of the tank.



frankpayne32 said:


> Here are more pics of the zoo's exhibits. This is from the Geckos: Tails to Toepads. If you're ever around a museum that has that exhibit check it out. The fabrication team did an amazing job. And I happened to write most of the graphics for those exhibits  .


I have a question that may be pushing the boundaries so if you don't want to answer it I understand. About how much does it cost to set-up one of those unique displays-not including the high tech controllers? Just the custom fiberglass backdrop.

How long does it take to build it?

Those are incredible works of art that most people would love to have in there house(at least I would).


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## frankpayne32

I do not mind answering that question personally but I don't think the business owners would appreciate me giving the exact building costs as that is their business. However, I can say that the fiberglass is rather expensive and I can estimate that a background such as you saw would be several thousand dollars but probably not more than ten (for an exhibit approx 3'x3'x5').

Thanks for the kind words on my humble 55. The background for that tank only cost me about five dollars to make! As the Styrofoam was free and I only used about 10-20 lbs of concrete. But it did involve quite a few hours of work.


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## Viaje

frankpayne, those pictures are from Peeling Productions, aren't they? I contacted them a few weeks ago with some questions and never got a call back, is there any good way to contact them?


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## frankpayne32

Viaje said:


> frankpayne, those pictures are from Peeling Productions, aren't they? I contacted them a few weeks ago with some questions and never got a call back, is there any good way to contact them?


That is correct. I suppose it would depend on the type of questions. Feel free to PM me and I can pass them along.


----------



## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> I do not mind answering that question personally but I don't think the business owners would appreciate me giving the exact building costs as that is their business. However, I can say that the fiberglass is rather expensive and I can estimate that a background such as you saw would be several thousand dollars but probably not more than ten (for an exhibit approx 3'x3'x5').
> 
> That's kind of what I thought. A ton of work and man hours go into those. What do they do with them when they are no longer used as a display? Just throw them out?
> 
> How long does a display last? Does the UV lights and frequent watering cause much damage?
> 
> BTW I ordered a new Uv light- thanks for the link. I wish I had known about the lack of effectieness of the standard flourescent UVB bulbs.


----------



## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> frankpayne32 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not mind answering that question personally but I don't think the business owners would appreciate me giving the exact building costs as that is their business. However, I can say that the fiberglass is rather expensive and I can estimate that a background such as you saw would be several thousand dollars but probably not more than ten (for an exhibit approx 3'x3'x5').
> 
> That's kind of what I thought. A ton of work and man hours go into those. What do they do with them when they are no longer used as a display? Just throw them out?
> 
> How long does a display last? Does the UV lights and frequent watering cause much damage?
> 
> BTW I ordered a new Uv light- thanks for the link. I wish I had known about the lack of effectieness of the standard flourescent UVB bulbs.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, the fiberglass method is so effective that they do not "go bad". There are some that have been in use for over ten years now and still look good. I would bet that with care these exhibits could last several decades.
> 
> I'm glad you ordered that bulb. It's a shame that the fluorescent tubes have been marketed so heavily. So many people have been misinformed about UV light by the reptile supply industry. Hopefully that will start to shift eventually to more effective methods. Your herps will absolutely LOVE that bulb. We have actually found that using strong UV light in captive amphibians has actually drastically decreased mortality! We believe it helps to keep harmful pathogens on their skin in check. I have actually seen dart frogs bask in UV light, provided the basking spot was not too warm (~80 F).
Click to expand...


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## Energy

Once you do a little research you find out that flourscent tubes peak produce as much uvb as the morning sun around 7:00 am. That's what I call enough to survive but not thrive. 

I was wondering if UVB to a limited degree would be used by PDF? I assumed since they are diurnal it would have an impact to their overall health.


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## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> Once you do a little research you find out that flourscent tubes peak produce as much uvb as the morning sun around 7:00 am. That's what I call enough to survive but not thrive.
> 
> I was wondering if UVB to a limited degree would be used by PDF? I assumed since they are diurnal it would have an impact to their overall health.


I am not aware of any research on the effects of UV lighting on dendrobatids but it is my belief that natural sunlight (or artificial light mimicking natural light) is beneficial to all diurnal reptiles/amphibians in one way or another, even if that way is not through vitamin D synthesis. I do know for a fact that it has a positive effect on the growth of smokey jungle frogs (L. pentadactylus). Mortality of young CBB frogs of this species went from about 75% dead in the first few months to 0% with the use of strong UV light.


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## duckkiller73

so i am completely new to this forum and to the idea of pdf's in general. I got a tree frog the other day and was discussing frogs with some guys at work who have had lots of luck with frogs. I have a 90gal african cichlid tank in my living room and love it because of the unique colors of the fish. Started thinking about putting a couple of small tanks on a shelf above the 90gal and housing pdf's. I found this forum and am absolutely in love with this thread. I spent two days reading the whole thing and giving updates to my wife (which she LOVED....not really.) This tank is absolutely amazing. Completely mind blowing. I want to see a video of the "storm." Now i just have to convince my wife to let me add to my pet collection (to a much lesser extent than you have gone!
thanks for the inspiration.


----------



## Energy

duckkiller73 said:


> so i am completely new to this forum and to the idea of pdf's in general. I got a tree frog the other day and was discussing frogs with some guys at work who have had lots of luck with frogs. I have a 90gal african cichlid tank in my living room and love it because of the unique colors of the fish. Started thinking about putting a couple of small tanks on a shelf above the 90gal and housing pdf's. I found this forum and am absolutely in love with this thread. I spent two days reading the whole thing and giving updates to my wife (which she LOVED....not really.) This tank is absolutely amazing. Completely mind blowing. I want to see a video of the "storm." Now i just have to convince my wife to let me add to my pet collection (to a much lesser extent than you have gone!
> thanks for the inspiration.


Awesome- glad I could give you some inspiration! Still working on the "storm" video. I don't have the effect completed to my satisfaction yet.

Comparing my saltwater tank with my PDF -stingray river biotope- 
Most of the reefers liked the old system better- other non reefers like this better. 
Personally both are fascinating and unique in their own way. This system does have challenges which make it every bit as technical as a reef.

I have two Co-2 systems to supply carbon for the aquatic plants. The dual water falls offset most C0-2 addition and therefore I had to add a second system to keep my C0-2 at a minimum of 15 ppm.

The Discus and stingray need daily water changes to keep the water quality up. I am to lazy to do it manually so I had to create a system to do this automatically but still keep my water level constant inside the system. It took me a while to figure it out but when I was done it was very simple.-In fact to simple- I kept over thinking the process and looking past an easy solution.


----------



## Ed

frankpayne32 said:


> I am not aware of any research on the effects of UV lighting on dendrobatids but it is my belief that natural sunlight (or artificial light mimicking natural light) is beneficial to all diurnal reptiles/amphibians in one way or another, even if that way is not through vitamin D synthesis. I do know for a fact that it has a positive effect on the growth of smokey jungle frogs (L. pentadactylus). Mortality of young CBB frogs of this species went from about 75% dead in the first few months to 0% with the use of strong UV light.



http://people.oregonstate.edu/~blaustea/pdfs/HanBiotropica2007.pdf


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## bronz

Thanks Ed, very interesting read.


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## Energy

bronz said:


> Thanks Ed, very interesting read.


Interesting indeed. You would think a diurnal frog would require some UVB.


----------



## Ed

It isn't that they don't require it, it is that they have to have some method of regulating exposure as the ability for herps to convert provitamin D to D3 can vary extensively depending on thier habitat. Animals that spend a lot of time in the shade or out of direct sun or are crepuscular in thier habits are more sensitive to UVB exposure and have a much greater ability to convert provitamin D to D3 based on a more efficient metabolic process. This also means that they are more sensitive to to UVB exposure and need utilize behavioral methods to control thier exposure to prevent the negative effects of exposure. 
See for example http://people.hofstra.edu/jason_d_williams/HUML/Handbooks/Ferguson.pdf 

Ed


----------



## ktewell

Ed said:


> http://people.oregonstate.edu/~blaustea/pdfs/HanBiotropica2007.pdf


Dr. Ryan Ferrer (4th author) is a super cool amphibian nut. If anyone has more questions about UV radiation and amphibians I can hook you up with his email.


----------



## frankpayne32

Ed said:


> http://people.oregonstate.edu/~blaustea/pdfs/HanBiotropica2007.pdf


Interesting read, although I would have liked to see actual measurement of UVB (uW/cm2). I'm certain that the UV levels the frogs in that study were avoiding were much higher than what is normally provided in a captive setting using bulbs.


----------



## frankpayne32

Ed said:


> It isn't that they don't require it, it is that they have to have some method of regulating exposure as the ability for herps to convert provitamin D to D3 can vary extensively depending on thier habitat. Animals that spend a lot of time in the shade or out of direct sun or are crepuscular in thier habits are more sensitive to UVB exposure and have a much greater ability to convert provitamin D to D3 based on a more efficient metabolic process. This also means that they are more sensitive to to UVB exposure and need utilize behavioral methods to control thier exposure to prevent the negative effects of exposure.
> See for example http://people.hofstra.edu/jason_d_williams/HUML/Handbooks/Ferguson.pdf
> 
> Ed


Also, an interesting read. Proof that we can't make generalizations about herp husbandry.


----------



## Ed

frankpayne32 said:


> Interesting read, although I would have liked to see actual measurement of UVB (uW/cm2). I'm certain that the UV levels the frogs in that study were avoiding were much higher than what is normally provided in a captive setting using bulbs.


Some further reading for those interested although it will require a paid access to them 

BioOne Online Journals - Ambient Solar UV Radiation Causes Mortality in Larvae of Three Species of Rana Under Controlled Exposure Conditions?,¶

Chicago Journals - Physiological and Biochemical Zoology

ScienceDirect - Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology - Part A: Molecular & Integrative Physiology : Ultraviolet radiation and Vitamin D3 in amphibian health, behaviour, diet and conservation


----------



## Energy

I picked up some of the vampire Crabs from Brian's tropical as they seem like they would be a good fit for the system. I'm excited to have the diversity which is really what I am striving for. If they survive the predation factor(stingrays) and thrive I will document their interaction with the PDF's. 

STOCKLIST UPDATE:

The truth- good and bad.

One of the pygmies fell into the water and drowned. The rest seem to be thriving. 

I purchased a pair of sub adult Jackson's- about the same time as my Satanic Leaf tailed gecko. The satanic seemed lethargic from the start and never came around. It died and I think caused an infection in the male Jackson's who died shortly after. The female is healthy and thriving.

I will not be replacing the Male until I know the system can support the female without issue. Furthermore after more investigation into UV light suppliments I will be holding off on all lizards until I can get a light from Mega ray who is currently backlogged.

The stingrays are extremely healthy and doing well. I am working on increasing the ability of the system to do larger daily Water changes as I think this would benefit the Discus and all the aquatic livestock. Currently it does 60-70 gallons and I would like to make this 100 Plus gallons.


----------



## vivbulider

Can we have a complete stock list of everything in the tank also I need more pics


----------



## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> I picked up some of the vampire Crabs from Brian's tropical as they seem like they would be a good fit for the system. I'm excited to have the diversity which is really what I am striving for. If they survive the predation factor(stingrays) and thrive I will document their interaction with the PDF's.
> 
> STOCKLIST UPDATE:
> 
> The truth- good and bad.
> 
> One of the pygmies fell into the water and drowned. The rest seem to be thriving.
> 
> I purchased a pair of sub adult Jackson's- about the same time as my Satanic Leaf tailed gecko. The satanic seemed lethargic from the start and never came around. It died and I think caused an infection in the male Jackson's who died shortly after. The female is healthy and thriving.
> 
> I will not be replacing the Male until I know the system can support the female without issue. Furthermore after more investigation into UV light suppliments I will be holding off on all lizards until I can get a light from Mega ray who is currently backlogged.
> 
> The stingrays are extremely healthy and doing well. I am working on increasing the ability of the system to do larger daily Water changes as I think this would benefit the Discus and all the aquatic livestock. Currently it does 60-70 gallons and I would like to make this 100 Plus gallons.


I'm glad you got the vampire crabs. I've been interested in them for some time as well. Brian is a nice guy, I met him at a show a few years ago, I'm sure you'll get good animals. Alan Repashy has succesfully kept the crabs with dart frogs so I'm sure you'll be fine but I'd like to hear your experiences.

I'm sorry to hear about your losses. Phantasticus are very delicate little animals until well established. I hope the female Jacksons does well for you. I don't want to overstep but if it were me I would remove the leaf chameleons. They are just so clumsy that putting them near water seems to always end in death.

Good call on getting the Mega Ray and holding off on any helioliphic lizards. That will pay off in the end.

Keep up the great exhibit, I can't wait to see more pictures!

Frank


----------



## DiverReefer

End view.
[URL="







[/URL][/QUOTE]

Oh my god .... This is the vivarium formerly known as Energy's tank of the month on Reef Central. Weird ... It looks amazing and I recognized it right away. 

How about posting some HD vids on Vimeo?


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## Viaje

How sad about the pygmies and phantasticus. What's even sadder is that you were warned and took absolutely no care to avoid the fate of these animals. I saw your reef in the past and you truly are a person who wants all animals to live together in a community setting. Unfortunately it's obvious that the welfare of these animals is little concern to you, after all, it's much easier to replace an animal than do it right in the first place. You were warned, with credible sources, when you announced your plans. I can only hope that from now on you consider animals more suited for a community setting, which few reptiles or amphibians are.

It's painfully obvious that you would much rather have an elaborate showpiece filled with "cool" animals than do research and care for the animals' well being, and it breaks my heart that an entire forum would stand by with praise as you continue to harm these animals. 
That's not the forum I signed up for. This will be my last post.


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## zcasc

This is on-par with saying that you have never lost any animals during the time that you have spent keeping them. If you have not, you haven't been keeping animals very long at all. 

If you have spent any time reading the 80+ pages of posts on this project from beginning to finish, as many of us have, you would understand that Energy has great amounts of experience with animal-keeping.

Besides, one person's advice on this site, as most everyone here would agree, does not always count as textbook-class fact. We all love animals, and a project such as this is captivating, yes, because of the way it looks...but also because it is in many ways experimental. We have all come to realize that many animals in this particular enclosure have not behaved in the ways that were originally predicted. 

Give us all a break, Viaje. It's not at all that we don't care about animals' well being. We are all on this site to learn and share information with each other.


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## harrywitmore

I have to totally agree with you. I'm not into animals but I have been. Without experimentation against the advice of those that have different experiences, there would be no hobby. It would not exist. As a person that kept reptiles and amphibians from 1960 on, I allowed many to die. It was always tragic but I normally learned something. 

This has continued into my current hobby of plants and I learn something every time I fail. For anyone to come here and be so indignant as to think they have never lost an animal or plant is absolutely disingenuous. So, if Viaje has to leave than I doubt we all will miss much.

Energy, you keep up the good work because I know you care.


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## VenomR00

not to sound bad but I think the point he was making was that energy ignored the facts and tried to experiment even with a bunch of pro's telling him otherwise. It would be like a newb asking how many tincs should be in a group and do the exact opposite. I think that is the point he was making because we all know that everyone would shun that person for quite sometime.


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## vivbulider

But a lot of people told him it would be ok and no one told him there was no way this would work


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## VenomR00

Ah I was just stating from what that person wrote. It seemed that he was warned and not told info that was false. Thats all =P


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## chinoanoah

How about we don't do this.... 

Good luck, Energy. Keep us posted with updates. And make a video for us to see this beast of a tank!


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## frankpayne32

chinoanoah said:


> How about we don't do this....
> 
> Good luck, Energy. Keep us posted with updates. And make a video for us to see this beast of a tank!


Agreed, this thread has been very good and fairly groundbreaking and experimental because of it's large size. Let's not allow it to be degraded...


----------



## Chad Vossen

Energy said:


> I picked up some of the vampire Crabs from Brian's tropical as they seem like they would be a good fit for the system. I'm excited to have the diversity which is really what I am striving for. If they survive the predation factor(stingrays) and thrive I will document their interaction with the PDF's.
> 
> STOCKLIST UPDATE:
> 
> The truth- good and bad.
> 
> One of the pygmies fell into the water and drowned. The rest seem to be thriving.
> 
> I purchased a pair of sub adult Jackson's- about the same time as my Satanic Leaf tailed gecko. The satanic seemed lethargic from the start and never came around. It died and I think caused an infection in the male Jackson's who died shortly after. The female is healthy and thriving.
> 
> I will not be replacing the Male until I know the system can support the female without issue. Furthermore after more investigation into UV light suppliments I will be holding off on all lizards until I can get a light from Mega ray who is currently backlogged.


i do agree the pygmies would be best if removed and housed in a better cage. perhaps you could strike a deal with twin cities reptiles on selling them, or find a suitable home with someone in the MN herp society. or enjoy them yourself in a dedicated viv. one has drowned, which is evidence the rest will probably share the same fate. 

sorry about the leaf-tails. 

i looked into the Mega Ray just last month. I had a possible opportunity to adopt a panther chameleon suffering from MBD. I wanted only the best lighting in the event that I took home the ill reptile. over 20 adoption applications went in on that chameleon, and i wasnt the one that took him home. so i ended my search. however I think i came to the conclusion that the Mega Ray lights just are not easily available in the USA at this time. the US market is slow to pick up on this it seems. 

i still think the neon blue day geckos would be an ideal reptile to add. or even the fancier anoles. 



Viaje said:


> How sad about the pygmies and phantasticus. What's even sadder is that you were warned and took absolutely no care to avoid the fate of these animals. I saw your reef in the past and you truly are a person who wants all animals to live together in a community setting. Unfortunately it's obvious that the welfare of these animals is little concern to you, after all, it's much easier to replace an animal than do it right in the first place. You were warned, with credible sources, when you announced your plans. I can only hope that from now on you consider animals more suited for a community setting, which few reptiles or amphibians are.
> 
> It's painfully obvious that you would much rather have an elaborate showpiece filled with "cool" animals than do research and care for the animals' well being, and it breaks my heart that an entire forum would stand by with praise as you continue to harm these animals.
> That's not the forum I signed up for. This will be my last post.


i dont think he "took absolutely no care to avoid the fate of these animals", but that he tried his best to meet the needs of each of those animals and provide a niche within his vivarium for them to dwell.

i do agree though the advise given by some of the members on this forum should not have been taken lightly. 

and just to be fair to everyone, i deleted most of my post.


----------



## Energy

Wow- feedback like that is exactly what makes this forum and America in general great- thank you for sharing your opinion so straightforward. I took no offense to it as I believe what you said was done for the benefits of the animals general welfare. It was this point as well for the reason I admitted all success's as well as defeats of the system. 

If we don't share information-good and bad we won't continue to learn and grow.

I will continue to document the trials and failure's of the system so others can benefit.

In my defense I have been doing research from other sources and personally spoke with people that have had success with the animals I put into the system. 

In regards to the phantasticus- I believe it was ill when I received it which I stated. A credible,experienced, personal source said one would be fine in the system-after reviewing it- hence my decision to move forward.

Either way- this isn't about justification- but transparency and sharing knowledge. I couldn't have gotten this far without everyone on this forum.

Thanks again!


----------



## Leopardgeckos

Some of you are very optimistic to mixing animals. I went to Florida Central Zoo and they have some type of viper in the same tank as PDFs. It's alot of trial an error. Obviously not everything will work out well. But there is alot of things to be learned from this forum. I would have never thought about putting rays in a tank with such small frogs but he did and seems to be having no problems.


----------



## Energy

Leopardgeckos said:


> Some of you are very optimistic to mixing animals. I went to Florida Central Zoo and they have some type of viper in the same tank as PDFs. It's alot of trial an error. Obviously not everything will work out well. But there is alot of things to be learned from this forum. I would have never thought about putting rays in a tank with such small frogs but he did and seems to be having no problems.


The rays are getting huge and so are the PDF's. Both are doing extremely well- actually better than anticipated. I had some reservations about the water features mixing with the PDF's but their have been absolutely no problems. In fact contrary to what has been stated on other threads I think the PDF's enjoy the water features. 

For clarification- the tank has an extremely Low Bio-Load overall.

5-7 anoles (more or less) I didn't count when putting them in.
3-4 pygmy chams- they have adapted extremely well to the tank and I monitor them around the water features. The tank was redesigned for their safety after consulting with frankpayne 32 and seems to be working out well.
Approx 10 PDF's- One fatality when it escaped and dried up on the floor.

Vampire crabs-6 I placed these into the tank and never seen them since(survival?- likely as long as they didn't become stingray food.)

Gecko's and Jackson's are removed. I couldn't get an adequate UV light from megaray (backordered indefinately it seems).

The UV light I have is adequate for the anoles and pygmies but subpar for the others.

Probably won't be adding anything else to the system. So in 1700 gallons I basically have 10 PDF's and 10 lizards- more or less.

I see a lot of people overstocking their systems and this causes a lot of stress on the animals- I believe even anoles need their space to thrive and not just survive.


----------



## frankpayne32

Leopardgeckos said:


> Some of you are very optimistic to mixing animals. I went to Florida Central Zoo and they have some type of viper in the same tank as PDFs. It's alot of trial an error. Obviously not everything will work out well. But there is alot of things to be learned from this forum. I would have never thought about putting rays in a tank with such small frogs but he did and seems to be having no problems.


Of course I can only speak for myself, but it has nothing to do with optimism and only with experience. You are correct though that it is a lot of trial and error. At the zoo I work at some of the multispecies exhibits that we have include:

Madagascar Exhibit with: U. fimbriatus, U. lineatus, U. henkeli, P. grandis.

Central American Exhibit with: C. caninus, B. schlegelii, D. tinctorius (3 morphs), D. auratus, P. vittatus, P. terribilis

Dart frog exhibit with: D. tinctorius (5 morphs), D. auratus (2 morphs), D. leucomelas, P. terribilis

All of these exhibits have been in existence for at least four years. We do not allow the dart frogs in mixed species/race tanks to reproduce.


----------



## frankpayne32

Energy said:


> The rays are getting huge and so are the PDF's. Both are doing extremely well- actually better than anticipated. I had some reservations about the water features mixing with the PDF's but their have been absolutely no problems. In fact contrary to what has been stated on other threads I think the PDF's enjoy the water features.
> 
> For clarification- the tank has an extremely Low Bio-Load overall.
> 
> 5-7 anoles (more or less) I didn't count when putting them in.
> 3-4 pygmy chams- they have adapted extremely well to the tank and I monitor them around the water features. The tank was redesigned for their safety after consulting with frankpayne 32 and seems to be working out well.
> Approx 10 PDF's- One fatality when it escaped and dried up on the floor.
> 
> Vampire crabs-6 I placed these into the tank and never seen them since(survival?- likely as long as they didn't become stingray food.)
> 
> Gecko's and Jackson's are removed. I couldn't get an adequate UV light from megaray (backordered indefinately it seems).
> 
> The UV light I have is adequate for the anoles and pygmies but subpar for the others.
> 
> Probably won't be adding anything else to the system. So in 1700 gallons I basically have 10 PDF's and 10 lizards- more or less.
> 
> I see a lot of people overstocking their systems and this causes a lot of stress on the animals- I believe even anoles need their space to thrive and not just survive.




Glad everything is doing well for you! I have had the same experience with PDF and water. That is definitely an old myth that in my experience is hogwash. Any adult PDF (not thumbnails) is plenty strong enough to haul themselves out of water as long as the distance isn't more than a foot or two. Mine have always used the water as well.

I think that the people who are giving you flack about mixing species simply don't realize how massive your tank is.


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## vivbulider

I did the math and your tank is 150sq feet without the front and plants and you have 26 herps so 150/26= 5.7 so 5.7sq feet per herp


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## zBrinks

15 feet long x 5 feet wide = 75sq feet. of floor space, minus whatever space is taken up by the water feature.


----------



## Ed

frankpayne32 said:


> Of course I can only speak for myself, but it has nothing to do with optimism and only with experience. You are correct though that it is a lot of trial and error. At the zoo I work at some of the multispecies exhibits that we have include:
> 
> Madagascar Exhibit with: U. fimbriatus, U. lineatus, U. henkeli, P. grandis.
> 
> Central American Exhibit with: C. caninus, B. schlegelii, D. tinctorius (3 morphs), D. auratus, P. vittatus, P. terribilis
> 
> Dart frog exhibit with: D. tinctorius (5 morphs), D. auratus (2 morphs), D. leucomelas, P. terribilis
> 
> All of these exhibits have been in existence for at least four years. We do not allow the dart frogs in mixed species/race tanks to reproduce.



Unlike a lot of multispecies (as mixed implies a interactions that really shouldn't exist) enclosures that are proposed or are set up (as in the larger one there), the ones' Frank mentions here are pretty zoogeographically correct. This significantly reduces the novel pathogen expose that occurs when non-zoogeographic species are housed together. This is an even greater risk when the waste materials from the enclosure (water, substrate, plant cuttings, to name a few possible vectors) are not disinfected or disposed of properly. 
We already are seeing problems with novel (Emerging Infectious Diseases) pathogens to various populations. At least in the US, we are already seeing severe losses of populations in a number of species such as native box turtles (Terrapene ssp) and native tortoises (Gopherus ssp) due to the introduction of the novel pathogen Mycoplasma agassizii). Chytrid is another possible vector introduced due to exposure of novel amphibians to infected animals... and this doesn't even get into the emerging information on iridovirus which can infect multiple taxa (invertebrate and vertebrate) and can pass back and forth between the two.. 

Multispecies enclosures can be set-up and successfully so if they are planned out correctly but with all of the emerging information on disease issues with reptiles and amphibians, the closer to a correct zoogeographic enclosure that one can set-up and maintain, the lower the risk. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

zBrinks said:


> 15 feet long x 5 feet wide = 75sq feet. of floor space, minus whatever space is taken up by the water feature.


Even large enclosures can provide surprisingly smaller amounts of space.. I broke down the trend a little as tanks got larger in some of my first posts (which can be seen by those who choose here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html)

Ed


----------



## zBrinks

I was just doing the math, as the math in the post on the previous page was incorrect. I did not take into account the surface area of various plants, vines, etc, which could substantially increase the surface area of a vivarium.

I also went ahead and made your mixing thread a sticky. An oldie but a goodie


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## vivbulider

No 150 with the back and sides


----------



## Ed

vivbulider said:


> No 150 with the back and sides


On what assumption are you making that the sides and back are suitable habitat and count as a niche? 

Ed


----------



## frankpayne32

Ed said:


> Unlike a lot of multispecies (as mixed implies a interactions that really shouldn't exist) enclosures that are proposed or are set up (as in the larger one there), the ones' Frank mentions here are pretty zoogeographically correct. This significantly reduces the novel pathogen expose that occurs when non-zoogeographic species are housed together. This is an even greater risk when the waste materials from the enclosure (water, substrate, plant cuttings, to name a few possible vectors) are not disinfected or disposed of properly.
> We already are seeing problems with novel (Emerging Infectious Diseases) pathogens to various populations. At least in the US, we are already seeing severe losses of populations in a number of species such as native box turtles (Terrapene ssp) and native tortoises (Gopherus ssp) due to the introduction of the novel pathogen Mycoplasma agassizii). Chytrid is another possible vector introduced due to exposure of novel amphibians to infected animals... and this doesn't even get into the emerging information on iridovirus which can infect multiple taxa (invertebrate and vertebrate) and can pass back and forth between the two..
> 
> Multispecies enclosures can be set-up and successfully so if they are planned out correctly but with all of the emerging information on disease issues with reptiles and amphibians, the closer to a correct zoogeographic enclosure that one can set-up and maintain, the lower the risk.
> 
> Ed


I agree with you Ed, it is always best when doing mixed exhibits to do so with animals from the same geographical location. On our exhibits we even try to match up plants this way (this isn't always practical so we at least hit the same country), even if this is mostly for the botanist's that work at the museums we work with.  There is still some practicality involved nonetheless.

Also true on what you said about pathogens coming in from various sources. I was once doing an exhibit at the Turtle Bay Museum in Redding, California and my darts started dying off from chytridiomycosis! It took me quite awhile to determine what the disease was and even longer on how it made its way into my exhibit. The only thing I ever came up with is soil from newly added plants. I could not bring any plants into the state and had to purchase them there (California's interstate flora laws). I was less than 100% in quarantining the plants (no time) and that was the result. On the positive side of that story I ended up treating and saving approximately half of the frogs. As far as I was told and still know I was the first person in the AZA to successfully treat chytridiomycosis on captive dendrobatids using an itraconazole solution. Which is now the preferred method. Back then we were still using iodine baths with limited success. 

So, obviously, when doing a mixed exhibit, keeping species from the same geographical location is ideal. But, with all of the possible sources of contagion it is practically impossible to prevent the chance introduction of some sort of pathogen, especially for a hobbyist, into our collections.


----------



## frankpayne32

Ed said:


> On what assumption are you making that the sides and back are suitable habitat and count as a niche?
> 
> Ed


I think it's quite visible in many of his pictures that the back is indeed a suitable niche for several species (rock work). The same can not be said for the sides though which I believe are glass.

Just wanted to add that I am not saying that the above posters math is completely accurate or that the entire back wall is usable habitat but that it could also definitely be partially included.


----------



## Ed

frankpayne32 said:


> So, obviously, when doing a mixed exhibit, keeping species from the same geographical location is ideal. But, with all of the possible sources of contagion it is practically impossible to prevent the chance introduction of some sort of pathogen, especially for a hobbyist, into our collections.


History has shown that introduction of a pathogen to a collection while devestating to the collection and the keeper is usually not as devestating as introduction of a novel pathogen to the enviroment. Housing species from disparate geographic regions allows for pathogens and parasites to evolve and jump hosts with potentially devestating effects on the affected populations (for people look at the new flu strains (that pick up novel genes by jumping in different orders from birds, pigs and people), or SARS or Ebola or even Hanta viruses).. These pathogens are then at risk of escaping to the enviroment via a number of factors.... 
This is why when considering multispecies enclosures only animals from the same regions should be housed together. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frankpayne32 said:


> I think it's quite visible in many of his pictures that the back is indeed a suitable niche for several species (rock work). The same can not be said for the sides though which I believe are glass.
> 
> Just wanted to add that I am not saying that the above posters math is completely accurate or that the entire back wall is usable habitat but that it could also definitely be partially included.


I was questioning it as the "potential available" space was evenly divided among all of the individual animals when the sides/back of the enclosures are not equally usable by the inhabitants. This is one of the problems when deciding it is a suitable amount of space per inhabitant... Instead the suitability of the niche is really where one should be looking. 

Ed


----------



## frankpayne32

Ed said:


> History has shown that introduction of a pathogen to a collection while devestating to the collection and the keeper is usually not as devestating as introduction of a novel pathogen to the enviroment. Housing species from disparate geographic regions allows for pathogens and parasites to evolve and jump hosts with potentially devestating effects on the affected populations (for people look at the new flu strains (that pick up novel genes by jumping in different orders from birds, pigs and people), or SARS or Ebola or even Hanta viruses).. These pathogens are then at risk of escaping to the enviroment via a number of factors....
> This is why when considering multispecies enclosures only animals from the same regions should be housed together.
> 
> Ed


Definitely true and scary. Especially considering how many exotics are released in this country by people that don't know better. I was just trying to point out that there are many ways to try to limit the introduction of diseases into our collections but it is practically impossible to prevent it.


----------



## Ed

It is hard to limit the introduction of disease pathogens particularly now that we know iridoviruses can be transmitted via feeder insects or meadow plankton. 
I'm just trying to make (and stress) the point that given the problems seen in the wild, we should also be limiting the potential for novel pathogens to start in our enclosures. 

Ed


----------



## wimvanvelzen

Just for my information:

I have a tank with animals from different places on earth (Trinidad, Peru, Africa), all bought CB from people who keep a lot of animals (not mixed, but in the same room).
I suppose they all allready shared the same set of pathogens at the time I bought them, regardless of country of origin. Or am I mistaken?

[ Ed, btw: many thanks for your thoughtfull and knowledgeable contributions here! Makes me learn a lot ]


----------



## Ed

That is a common misconception. Captive bred does not mean that it is pathogen/parasite free. There are a lot of pathogens that are endemic to a species and while they may cause irritation or problems within that species are not normally lethal but are lethal in other species. One of the best known examples of this is herpes B which is carried by macaques and while it causes discomfort in the macaque it doesn't kill it.. however the mortality rate in humans is close to 80%. We can look at the converse of cold sores in humans (herpes simplex type 1) causes a significant mortality in tamarins... 
One of the viruses that is currently under watch to see if it will jump species (it is known to be weaky infective in humans) is simian foamy virus.. this virus is endemic in about 80 plus percent of captive born primates. 

There are a lot of potential diseases that are endemic within a zoogeographic region that the local population has become adapted but novel populations are at risk. Once a pathogen/parasite adapts to be able to jump species the results can be catostrophic. 

For a more recent one, look up the history of canine parvovirus and how it jumped and adapted to dogs (there is evidence that it may have jumped from domestic cats). 

Ed


----------



## Energy




----------



## vivbulider

Is that a gold fish


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> Is that a gold fish


Yep- it's basically for Duckweed control. Their really was no other way for me to keep it out of the system. That goldfish is by far the best way I have ever eliminated pesky duckweed.- I love it!


----------



## Julio

looks amazing, i for one woudl not put the big gold fish in there, if a frog happens to fall in it won't have a chance to come out, plus they produce a ridiculous ammount of ammonia.


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## MeiKVR6

Stanley that things looks better every update!!


----------



## Energy

IMG_0048.flv video by Energy1212 - Photobucket

I just got an I-phone so I am playing with some of the features and shot this video. I think the I-Phone is the only smart phone made for stupid people-it's perfect!


----------



## frogface

Awesome !


----------



## Andres

That video and the last set of photos has officially rocked my world. I can't beleive how that whole thing has grown in. Just amazing!


----------



## winstonamc

dido, can't believe this wonderland


----------



## azure89

I had looked at this post before and thought, wow what an awesome viv but when I saw the stingray that pretty much made my day!


----------



## vivbulider

It's to bad you couldn't get birds that would be so cool so would small monkeys but something you could get Is a fly river turtle they don't eat fish and i've seen them housed with rays in a tank smaller then yours they don't have claws but there verry hard to find and when you do the have a huge price tag


----------



## ghettopieninja

vivbulider said:


> It's to bad you couldn't get birds that would be so cool so would small monkeys but something you could get Is a fly river turtle they don't eat fish and i've seen them housed with rays in a tank smaller then yours they don't have claws but there verry hard to find and when you do the have a huge price tag


an adult Carettochelys insculpta can reach over 20inches in length a weigh over 30lbs, you could have one if the entire tank was filled with water, but as it is there is no where near enough usable open water space. Not to mention the majority of those available in the US are illegal imports, would be cool in a much larger exhibit however.


----------



## Ed

vivbulider said:


> Is a fly river turtle they don't eat fish and i've seen them housed with rays in a tank smaller then yours they don't have claws but there verry hard to find and when you do the have a huge price tag


I've worked with Carrettochelys insculpta for the last 18 years and you have to not only go through a lot of them to find one that won't eat the fish but you also have to keep the turtle very well fed.... Most of them eat (some will kill but not eat) fish housed with them... so I would not recommend housing them with expensive fish. Often they are housed with some of the rainbow fish from the same region as the fish are relatively easy to spawn and thus can replace those that are consumed. 

A fly river turtle would also trash/consume all of the plant matter it can reach, continually roil the sediment (so you need a filter that can handle the sand/etc or a way to prevent it from be sucked up and frying your pump), and move any small branches, sticks or stones it can manipulate. 

If you had added a small primate, you could kiss any small vertebrates in the enclosure good bye as well as all but the most sturdy plantings as they would have been pulled apart and tasted or pulled apart in the search for insects. You would also be amazed at how bady them smell....


----------



## ghettopieninja

lot of good points about the Carrettochelys Ed, where I worked the one adult on display killed the entire school of rainbows except one, which he kept alive for many months and would 'play' with.


----------



## vivbulider

Ed said:


> I've worked with Carrettochelys insculpta for the last 18 years and you have to not only go through a lot of them to find one that won't eat the fish but you also have to keep the turtle very well fed.... Most of them eat (some will kill but not eat) fish housed with them... so I would not recommend housing them with expensive fish. Often they are housed with some of the rainbow fish from the same region as the fish are relatively easy to spawn and thus can replace those that are consumed.
> 
> A fly river turtle would also trash/consume all of the plant matter it can reach, continually roil the sediment (so you need a filter that can handle the sand/etc or a way to prevent it from be sucked up and frying your pump), and move any small branches, sticks or stones it can manipulate.
> 
> If you had added a small primate, you could kiss any small vertebrates in the enclosure good bye as well as all but the most sturdy plantings as they would have been pulled apart and tasted or pulled apart in the search for insects. You would also be amazed at how bady them smell....


from what i've heard fly river turtles are the best turtle to keep with fish now from what you say I would not work and I was just saying a monkey would be cool if he could


----------



## ghettopieninja

vivbulider said:


> from what i've heard fly river turtles are the best turtle to keep with fish now from what you say I would not work


I'm not sure if fin nipping is an issue with Carettochelys but I imagine it could be, however if chosen correctly large fish can do well with these turtles. Smaller fish and members of their own species do not bode so well.


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## Ed

ghettopieninja said:


> I'm not sure if fin nipping is an issue with Carettochelys but I imagine it could be, however if chosen correctly large fish can do well with these turtles. Smaller fish and members of their own species do not bode so well.


If you consider fin nipping to be taking it and some of the body with it...  

Ed


----------



## Ed

vivbulider said:


> from what i've heard fly river turtles are the best turtle to keep with fish now from what you say I would not work and I was just saying a monkey would be cool if he could


I didn't say it wouldn't work, I said you are going to go through a lot of fly river turtles (aka pig nosed turtle. aka pitted shell turtle) before you find one that is going to leave the fish alone. 

There are a couple of tricks one can try to make it work better, like taking the turtle out of the tank for at least 2 weeks and preferably closer to 3 weeks to a month to let the fish totally acclimate to the enclosure so they aren't acting panicky and scared but you are still going to have to try a number of them before it works. 

Ed


----------



## the_deeb

That viv looks more and more stunning as it grows in. I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but what kind or nepenthes is that?

Also, I second (or third) the suggestion that a fly river turtle would be a bad idea in your tank. Besides wrecking your aquascape and plants (most people who house them in aquariums seem to go with relatively bare setups), I've heard a number of stories of FRTs suddenly taking chunks out of rays after long periods of peaceful cohabitation.


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## frankpayne32

The tank is looking great Stan! Loved the video.


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## Energy

frankpayne32 said:


> The tank is looking great Stan! Loved the video.


Wow- Thanks- I know it's very amatuerish but I wanted to get something out there beside still photo's.



the_deeb said:


> That viv looks more and more stunning as it grows in. I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but what kind or nepenthes is that?
> 
> Also, I second (or third) the suggestion that a fly river turtle would be a bad idea in your tank. Besides wrecking your aquascape and plants (most people who house them in aquariums seem to go with relatively bare setups), I've heard a number of stories of FRTs suddenly taking chunks out of rays after long periods of peaceful cohabitation.


I'm not sure of which nepe's I have in there. There are a total of three Nep's and a few sundews as well.



Ed said:


> I didn't say it wouldn't work, I said you are going to go through a lot of fly river turtles (aka pig nosed turtle. aka pitted shell turtle) before you find one that is going to leave the fish alone.
> 
> There are a couple of tricks one can try to make it work better, like taking the turtle out of the tank for at least 2 weeks and preferably closer to 3 weeks to a month to let the fish totally acclimate to the enclosure so they aren't acting panicky and scared but you are still going to have to try a number of them before it works.
> 
> Ed


Thanks guys but as neat and interesting as that turtle is it was never on my list. After researching it I realized that it wouldn't be appropriate for all of the above mentioned reasons. 



frogface said:


> Awesome !


Thanks!



Andres said:


> That video and the last set of photos has officially rocked my world. I can't beleive how that whole thing has grown in. Just amazing!


I have been waiting for it to grow in and it's coming along nicely. I think about another 6 months will give it a better 'matured' look. Both waterfalls have completely grown over, the rock structure beneath is not visible. 



winstonamc said:


> dido, can't believe this wonderland


Thank you!



azure89 said:


> I had looked at this post before and thought, wow what an awesome viv but when I saw the stingray that pretty much made my day!


Cool!



vivbulider said:


> It's to bad you couldn't get birds that would be so cool so would small monkeys but something you could get Is a fly river turtle they don't eat fish and i've seen them housed with rays in a tank smaller then yours they don't have claws but there verry hard to find and when you do the have a huge price tag


I seriously considered both as options and couldn't find any that would have been suited for the system. I even looked into pygmy marmosets, and various small species of tropical birds. I couldn't find anything that would be well suited for the system.

In fact- the more I research the less I find that "works". For instance- the PDF's are ideal but due to inadequate UVA &UVB light suppliments most other aboreal,diurnal lizards are out. The anoles are fine and constantly bask under the supplimental light I have but this is really not enough for other lizards that aren't as hardy. 

I could go with other species of tree frogs but I have ruled almost all of these out for various reasons, cross pathogens etc etc.

I am fine status quo, a few anoles, a few PDF's, some vampire crabs(still haven't seen them), stingrays, discus, and other smaller species of fish.

If anyone has other suggestions-I'm all ears!


----------



## Energy

Julio said:


> looks amazing, i for one woudl not put the big gold fish in there, if a frog happens to fall in it won't have a chance to come out, plus they produce a ridiculous ammount of ammonia.


You are right but I need a natural form of Duckweed control and this guy works the best. Since that photo he was taken out of the main system and placed in the sump(connected) to the main display. Just in case of another outbreak. I actually fertilize the system to help the aquatic plants grow and maintain balance. Sounds odd but I have to add more ferts than I work at removing. His ammonia production is welcome.



MeiKVR6 said:


> Stanley that things looks better every update!!


Thank you


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## zcasc

Awesome indeed...

It is so cool to watch a group of fish shoaling across a great expanse like that. Sure, they can do the same in a 20 gallon aquarium, but there's nothing like _this_ kind of shoaling. Bravo again, my friend.


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## carbonetc

the_deeb said:


> That viv looks more and more stunning as it grows in. I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but what kind or nepenthes is that?


The nepenthes in the last photo is an ampullaria.


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## vivbulider

i would get a tropical lily pad


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## hukilausurfer

Epic viv! So are there any frogs in it?


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## MA70Snowman

hukilausurfer said:


> Epic viv! So are there any frogs in it?


umm.. have you read any of this thread? or just looked at the pretty pictures? Personally with all the good information, I would find your comment slightly insulting as a handful of members have invested some serious time and effort into both the viv, and their responses and the knowledge they have laid out here. 

Energy.. my eyes hurt I stumbled on t his thread and was hooked. I think that last Iphone video really kicked me. There's alot of freakin' awsome things about this viv.. but for some reason.. the school of fish in that video was just epic for me. I'm doing a VERY (in relation) scaled down version of what you have here, I know nothing about fish, and thats been my main focus now before I even being designing my 175, but this thread alone has put me leaps and bounds ahead of where I was. My water feature will make an L shape from t he right side of t he enclosure going around the front, and something I really wanted was a group of fish that were tiny and schooled like that, which ones are those as you've mentioned what you have but I could neither put a name or picture to anything fully aquatic that I've seen. 

another question, something I've been struggling to research is Air-flow, I don't know if its a bigger issue or no issue in a enclosure your size, but have you made any provisions for that? I know you mentioned "bathroom" fans earlier but wasn't familiar w/ t heir application. 

What did you use for the "branch bridges" or "vines" that you placed when you had the Chams in? 

one last question, There's a ton of links that I've found through out this thread (I have them all book marked) which sites/references/specific threads do you think made the most impact in your design build, and would you mind sharing them? 

again.. just Freakin' Epic (and that's keeping my comments "G" rated) and you should seriously consider, charging admission on the weekends, maybe get w/ price-line and start a packaged vacation deal  I'll totally sleep on that couch for a night for a pretty penny.


----------



## vivbulider

MA70Snowman if you want fish i would get tetras


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## MA70Snowman

vivbulider said:


> MA70Snowman if you want fish i would get tetras


any particular reason?would they benefit the viv at all?


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## vivbulider

they stay small and school look good and very easy to keep plus only a few $ so if it dies your not out a ton of money


----------



## jausi

Thank u for Sharing this beautyful setup, it's an amazin job you've done here, keep us posted, i expended all the AFTERNOOD reading this thread!!!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH


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## JimO

I just looked through the thread this afternoon/evening and, all I can say, any adjectives don't do it justice. That it is the kind of setup I've always dreamed of having. Alas, I have neither the space nor the funds for anything like it. I'm a former reefkeeper with one foot still in the hobby with one small reef tank, but my interests in dart frogs has increased to the point where I now have five vivaria and am working on a 27-gal hex to house some juvenile intermedius I will be receiving in a week or so.

I have also keep various carnivorous plants and most nepenthese can grow large enough to make a meal out of a juvenile frog. So, if you plan to breed the frogs, you might have to protect them from the plant's pitchers. Although the species you listed are predominantly ground dwellers, a juvenile might find one of the pitchers a convenient moist hiding place and unwittingly slip into the trap and be unable to escape. I would imagine that if you do want to raise tadpoles, you'll have to remove the eggs, since they would be easy prey for the fish.

You've inspired me and given me some great ideas for my new hex setup. Thank you so much for sharing.

BTW - I love the Discus and the ray.


----------



## desaza

I have always look through your vivarium, and all I can say is wow.
just wow. nothing more.
I love how those small fish swim toghter, it looks so natural and the way you try to create another nature in there, it is so awesome for people like me to watch.
I, my self had hobby in aquarium and also reptiles. It looks like you got all inside. 
anyway love your work


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## klik339

wow this thing is outstanding, I don't know if you mentioned it earlier but roughly how much did all this cost to build? I know you still had a lot of the filters and stuff from when it was a reef tank but damn....


----------



## Chad Vossen

Great update with the photos and video!

Stan! the MN orchid society is having a greenhouse tour july 17th. basically get to visit two private collections and a commercial greenhouse. seems like orchids will be for sale at each place. i'm hunting for miniature orchids. 

I'm going to the RAD zoo tomorrow (reptile and amphibian discovery zoo). I'll let you know how it is! If you happen to have the day off, something to think about!


----------



## Chad Vossen

Stan, have you looked into the zoo med fogger? I've got one hooked up to two tank, soon three. and i love it. 

I've got the fogger hooked up to a timer and 15 mins 2x a day my vivarium is filled with fog. after the fogger turns off, and the fog clears, everything is covered in fine droplets of water. the plants sparkle.

just one fogger wouldnt flood your viv though, but it'd add a very cool layer of fog to the lower areas of the viv that i think would be way cool.


----------



## bananatree94

i cant help but suggest to get a pair of finches in there! they shouldn't have any trouble with flying into the glass, people keep finches in glass aviaries all the time. they even keep them in glass cages at places like petco and petsmart. that would add a really nice touch to this setup because then there would be land, water and AIR animals. a complete functioning rainforest. i suggest gouldian finches or parrot finches because they are very colorful. you could hang a small bird feeder in there and put a small water bowl on the ground. the birdfeeder would be a nice place to hand spanish moss and tillandsias and the water dish would be unnoticeable.


----------



## steelyphil

Isn't there a video of this somewhere?


----------



## Chopper Greg

Energy,

Two words about your system - _Insanely Incredible!_



Energy said:


> I am still trying to get it just right. I swapped out controllers so the lights flash now from different directions to simulate multiple strikes. I need to get a different light bulb/ setup to get a white light versus a tan light.


Have you considered banks of white ( or a mix of white and blue ) high intensity LED's or a xenon / krypton flash lamp, to give the white/blue white flash of a lighting strike?


----------



## Chad Vossen

bananatree94 said:


> i cant help but suggest to get a pair of finches in there! they shouldn't have any trouble with flying into the glass, people keep finches in glass aviaries all the time. they even keep them in glass cages at places like petco and petsmart. that would add a really nice touch to this setup because then there would be land, water and AIR animals. a complete functioning rainforest. i suggest gouldian finches or parrot finches because they are very colorful. you could hang a small bird feeder in there and put a small water bowl on the ground. the birdfeeder would be a nice place to hand spanish moss and tillandsias and the water dish would be unnoticeable.


bird droppings and bird seed growing are two problems I see. while the viv is big, it's not big enough. 

and what would the finches need a water dish for?


----------



## Ed

armagedon48 said:


> bird droppings and bird seed growing are two problems I see. while the viv is big, it's not big enough.
> 
> and what would the finches need a water dish for?


And you would be amazed at how much of a mess the bird droppings can be.. as a potential further complication, if there is insufficient air flow with the higher moisture content, some diseases like aspergillosus or histoplasmosis become much more likely. Also, it can be a real pain to service the enclosure without the finches getting out.... 

Ed


----------



## bananatree94

well there are a lot of pellet diets for finches that are much more healthy than an all seed diet, and a water dish would be for clean water, how would you like to drink stingray pee? haha. the droppings of a finch are extremely similar to a lizards or frogs which he already has in there, and that would just turn into fertilizer. But it never occured to me about the moisture related diseases and infections it can cause for the birds. i guess it would not be a great idea, but in an aviary of similar size with fans and no water feature it could be possible.


----------



## Ed

bananatree94 said:


> well there are a lot of pellet diets for finches that are much more healthy than an all seed diet, and a water dish would be for clean water, how would you like to drink stingray pee? haha. the droppings of a finch are extremely similar to a lizards or frogs which he already has in there, and that would just turn into fertilizer. But it never occured to me about the moisture related diseases and infections it can cause for the birds. i guess it would not be a great idea, but in an aviary of similar size with fans and no water feature it could be possible.


My wife and I have both worked with birds in tropical aviary style enclosures and the problems with the droppings compared to a reptile is that there is a significant difference in the quantity of them produced as compated to a frog or lizard.... 

Ed


----------



## bananatree94

Ed said:


> My wife and I have both worked with birds in tropical aviary style enclosures and the problems with the droppings compared to a reptile is that there is a significant difference in the quantity of them produced as compated to a frog or lizard....
> 
> Ed


ok i said never-mind on adding birds to the vivarium, you dont have to keep proving your point with information that is not necessary anymore.... in a regular aviary with a concrete/mulch ground that is the same size as this one can be cleaned easily.... and im sure that theres micro fauna in the soil that could decompose fecal matter rather quickly.


----------



## Chopper Greg

bananatree94 said:


> ok i said never-mind on adding birds to the vivarium, you dont have to keep proving your point with information that is not necessary anymore.... in a regular aviary with a concrete/mulch ground that is the same size as this one can be cleaned easily.... and im sure that theres micro fauna in the soil that could decompose fecal matter rather quickly.


In Ed's defense, I didn't even see anything that could be understood as " never mind " in the post he responded to, until I looked very closely at the last sentence - and except for the words " _i guess it would not be a great idea _", but even then, the way you kept trying to push the idea in that post and the one I'm responding to it appears that you still don't understand the reasoning.

Yes, micro-fauna could deal with some of the bird waste, but only if it was all spread out over a fairly large area, and that is not going to happen. 

There would be just places where the birds are going spending most of their time, and those area's are going to overwhelmed with bird manure, because bird manure is high in nitrogen and phosphorus - more than can be handled by 'local' microbes, so *you will *end up with a dead spot ( one that keeps growing, until you clean it out by hand ).

I say this, because I have a couple of chickens and while I have the greenest grass in my back yard, and a very active compost pile I also have a few dead spots where they spend the majority of their time ( the area under the spot where they sleep just get's loaded and the same is true for any bird, be it a chicken or a finch ) - I have had almost 20 rabbits, concentrated in a fairly small area, and by comparison the rabbit manure with often compost right under the cages with a super abundance of worms that are not affected by it as they are the concentrated manure from just a couple of chickens - and like I said it's behavior that birds of all types regardless of size.


----------



## bananatree94

Chopper Greg said:


> In Ed's defense, I didn't even see anything that could be understood as " never mind " in the post he responded to, until I looked very closely at the last sentence - and except for the words " _i guess it would not be a great idea _", but even then, the way you kept trying to push the idea in that post and the one I'm responding to it appears that you still don't understand the reasoning.
> 
> Yes, micro-fauna could deal with some of the bird waste, but only if it was all spread out over a fairly large area, and that is not going to happen.
> 
> There would be just places where the birds are going spending most of their time, and those area's are going to overwhelmed with bird manure, because bird manure is high in nitrogen and phosphorus - more than can be handled by 'local' microbes, so *you will *end up with a dead spot ( one that keeps growing, until you clean it out by hand ).
> 
> I say this, because I have a couple of chickens and while I have the greenest grass in my back yard, and a very active compost pile I also have a few dead spots where they spend the majority of their time ( the area under the spot where they sleep just get's loaded and the same is true for any bird, be it a chicken or a finch ) - I have had almost 20 rabbits, concentrated in a fairly small area, and by comparison the rabbit manure with often compost right under the cages with a super abundance of worms that are not affected by it as they are the concentrated manure from just a couple of chickens - and like I said it's behavior that birds of all types regardless of size.


ummm i dont believe you have to "look very close" to see that i took the idea back.... but what ever. I also know about birds, i have kept parrots all my life. i realize that the area in which a bird sleeps is often messy, but i figure he would put those small woven nest boxes in there which he could take out once a week and wash. sure when keeping birds there is more work involved but that is part of owning a pet... * you should not mind cleaning up a mess....* i do realize that the birds could develop things like staff infection and respiratory infections when in a humid, germ-y environment and am still not defending the idea of putting birds in this vivarium... now i am simply stating a fact that it is possible to keep them in a viv of similar size with a different substrate and no water feature. (stated in a previous comment).


----------



## nathan

I dont know if its a scientific fact but Ive read that birds need to go number 2 every twenty minutes to maintain proper weight for flight. 
Ive worked with birds in the past, and they are extremly messy, and poop ALOT. and thats an understatement. Your stunning viv would soon be riddled with what looks like the bird poop frogs only it would be real bird poop ! lol

I would avoid putting birds in there.

Another note - the detroit zoo has a pretty awesome rainforest style walkthrough bird house. One draw back- Bird crap EVERYWHERE !


----------



## bananatree94

nathan said:


> I dont know if its a scientific fact but Ive read that birds need to go number 2 every twenty minutes to maintain proper weight for flight.
> Ive worked with birds in the past, and they are extremly messy, and poop ALOT. and thats an understatement. Your stunning viv would soon be riddled with what looks like the bird poop frogs only it would be real bird poop ! lol
> 
> I would avoid putting birds in there.
> 
> Another note - the detroit zoo has a pretty awesome rainforest style walkthrough bird house. One draw back- Bird crap EVERYWHERE !


it all depends on the size of the bird (the smaller the bird the more frequent the poop) however with small finches it would not be too messy if cleaned weekly. however the diseases that the humidity can cause would not work for birds. yes the detroit bird house is a nice aviary but i prefer their butterfly dome and their new amphibian house with freshwater stingrays.


----------



## vivbulider

that would be cool butterflys or moths


----------



## steelyphil

I was just thinking, do you ever see your frogs in such a big vivarium?


----------



## bananatree94

vivbulider said:


> that would be cool butterflys or moths


yea but if they bred in the viv their caterpillars would eat the plants.


----------



## Adamrl018

How do you feed the frogs???


----------



## Chopper Greg

bananatree94 said:


> yea but if they bred in the viv their caterpillars would eat the plants.


Maybe, but if the caterpillars were not toxic - it may also be just more food for the critters - but there would still be the issue of keeping them in while working on it.


----------



## bananatree94

Chopper Greg said:


> Maybe, but if the caterpillars were not toxic - it may also be just more food for the critters - but there would still be the issue of keeping them in while working on it.


i guess, it wouldent be a HUGE deal if one got out cause he has a room behind the tank where he could catch one if it flew out. butterflies arent very fast animals... haha. although insects are known for having thousands of babies at a time and even if the larva were edible, i doubt all would be eaten, that means that like 500 are left to eat an all you can eat plant buffet and grow to mate and make more larva. if i were him i wouldn't want to risk introducing something that could end up being a household pest.


----------



## Morgan Freeman

I can't wait to see what this looks like in a year or two...


----------



## Wallace Grover

Wow, what an amazing piece. If only everyone could have one in their homes 

It really makes you wonder about other things people could do, or habitats that could be made. Maybe even a saltwater mangrove swamp, or a tide pool with the water on the left and sand on the right.

I must say, your tanks are the dream and evy of reefs and viv keepers everywhere. I myself am deciding between a reef and viv atm...


----------



## Energy

Hi Everyone- I have been very busy at work so sorry for no updates or photo's I do excavation, demolition and retaining walls for a living so the summer time is hectic. Quick Updates.

Frogs- They get fed Fruitflies that I grow and attract into the system through the overflows. Because the filtration room is mostly isolated from the rest of the house they seem to stay in and around the aquarium(my wife will argue with me there).

The Three stingrays and the other fish get fed red wrigglers(small earthworms) silversides, beefheart and bloodworms.

The anoles dine on the fruitflies and seem to be breeding readily. Everything else stays status qoue. 

The Vampire crabs come out more often than before.

Everything seems to be doing fine. I have a total of about 10 frogs in the system, 6 vampire crabs, and about 6 anoles . Other than the aquatic animals that is it and probably won't change much.

No Birds, No snakes, no turtles- pretty much I want to keep overcrowding and any stress related conditions to a minimal. The animals that are in the system seem to be be ideally suited- so that's the way it will stay for now.


----------



## vivbulider

just to let you know rolling kansas has some of those rare anolis for sale http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ot...s-tropical-anolis-sp-kept-same-way-darts.html


----------



## raimeiken

quite an awesome setup! ahaha! 

I don't know how you can have a day job when you have such a big tank like this! I'd spend the whole day maintaining it, feeding and just plain watching it for hours!


----------



## Energy

Vampire Crab-Beautiful but elusive. Luckily this one crawled into a birds nest fern for this shot.











Overall tank shot- I have to stand back about 25 feet and loose a lot of detail so sorry for the poor quality.











Male 12 inch leo is the black one with white spots- the smaller one is a female Henlei brown with yellow spots.


----------



## Brien

What kind of moss is that?


----------



## fleshfrombone

Such an incredible vivarium. This thing blows me away every time I see it.


----------



## Energy

vivbulider said:


> just to let you know rolling kansas has some of those rare anolis for sale http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ot...s-tropical-anolis-sp-kept-same-way-darts.html


Thanks for the info.




brien said:


> What kind of moss is that?


Riccia and Java Moss- the Java grows much taller and faster than the riccia. I prefer the look of the riccia as it stays neat and low growing



fleshfrombone said:


> Such an incredible vivarium. This thing blows me away every time I see it.


Thanks!


----------



## nathan

You should change your db name from energy to envy !

That monster is AMAZING !


----------



## pygmypiranha

Thank you so much for the updates. It's certainly come a long way since I first started to follow your work a little over a year ago. Such an impressive aquarium.

So is it as much a conversation starter at parties as I think it is?

What sort of comments do you get when friends come over?


----------



## frankpayne32

Thanks for the updated pics. You really have something special there. This is MUCHbetter than the exhibits at most large aquariums and zoos.


----------



## zBrinks

Any idea what kind of nepenthes that is?


----------



## Energy

Sorry- no idea what type of pitcher plant that is.


----------



## wesly2007

looks to me like one of the many hybrids of Nepenthes Ampullaria


----------



## raimeiken

yeah it looks like the N. Ampullaria "harlequin" I have growing in my tank


----------



## JrayJ

Updated Pics! I Ask?


----------



## botanyboy03

Well, I have just spent the past 2 and a half hours reading through this thread, and quite frankly, I am damn near speechless. what an incredible viv!!!!!!!!!!! Stunning. Please, more pictures please.

Zac


----------



## dendrothusiast

three hours reading and my eyes burn, but not enough to keep admiring your huge paludarium. I always wanted freshwater stingrays in my paludarium but i want a school of neons and hatchet fish too which means no stingray...not to forget theyre illegal in california anyways. ive seen cardinal tetras kept with piranha ...maybe ill go with that...most likely not . I also I have an idea with keeping several strawberry darts along with some glass tree frogs so there's no size competetion. as for my reptiles im most likely thinking of pygmy chameleons as i have great success keeping them with darts. 

great paludarium ill definately look at yours as some inspiration big time.


----------



## Energy

dendrothusiast said:


> three hours reading and my eyes burn, but not enough to keep admiring your huge paludarium. I always wanted freshwater stingrays in my paludarium but i want a school of neons and hatchet fish too which means no stingray...not to forget theyre illegal in california anyways. ive seen cardinal tetras kept with piranha ...maybe ill go with that...most likely not . I also I have an idea with keeping several strawberry darts along with some glass tree frogs so there's no size competetion. as for my reptiles im most likely thinking of pygmy chameleons as i have great success keeping them with darts.
> 
> great paludarium ill definately look at yours as some inspiration big time.


Stingrays can be kept with smaller fish if you train them. I use the same process that falconers use to train there birds to bring the prey they capture back to the handler. 

By nature predators will want to hunt. The trick is to keep them full- they will still hunt but not as aggressively- more out of boredom. 

My Rays get fed daily at the same time in the same spot. Every day all three show up for food and wait. The smaller fish show up as well but the rays view the smaller fish as a nuisance-instead of a snack. They know that a banquet is about to arrive and there is no need to go after the littler fish.

I used another technique to train octopus from escaping from their enclosure. By nature octopi are EXTREMELY intelligent, inquisitive and very easily trained. They are also escape artists. My octopi would feed from my hand- at the top of the lidless tank. While they were happily munching their goodies and exploring whatever else was in my hand I would lift them out of the water- they hated it. They learned that nothing good or fun was outside the tank and preferred to stay inside. I kept all of them in open enclosures and never had one instance of escape.

Hope that helps-


----------



## Energy

JrayJ said:


> Updated Pics! I Ask?





botanyboy03 said:


> Well, I have just spent the past 2 and a half hours reading through this thread, and quite frankly, I am damn near speechless. what an incredible viv!!!!!!!!!!! Stunning. Please, more pictures please.
> 
> Zac


Give me another month or two and I will see what I can post for new pics and thanks for the compliment!


----------



## dendrothusiast

I knew rays were smart but not that smart and ive had a roomate in the past who's father kept octupi and did what im sure almost the exact same you just said to discourage escapes. 

Back to the rays though after hearing what you said makes me feel confident i could attempt keeping them together with neons but no matter how big my paludarium i think i wont chance it because i would like to have some baby tears' plants take over the foreground underwater where rays mainly like to occupy. Yes they are illegal here in california but i have ways to sneak them in if i wanted to but i have no need since i dont plan on having them for a while. I know they're legal in ohio according to my lover and i plan on moving there soon longterm for educational reasons to obtain my biology phd. i will most likely obtain a few once i construct my greenhouse where i can house a couple of three with schools of tropical fish in their own bioligically heated pond....but im only rambling about a life goal, in a couple years in time you may see my posts when i'm finally ready to attempt it

thankyou for taking time to respond and answer what i had commented


----------



## vivbulider

also in a big tank with lots of tetras they might pick a few off but not all


----------



## vivbulider

we need a update


----------



## botanyboy03

Any updates?


----------



## SuperSaiyanGoku

Maybe Energy tore down the Viv and set up a captive tiger with a lion. The tank is big enough for a baby cub. Jk. The Leo is beautiful by the way. I used to have motoros and bred them. I had to get rid of them because my Motoro grew over 18 inches. He is in a 900 gallon custom tank now. Great set up by the way!


----------



## Energy

Hi everyone, here is a quick update. The plants overgrew the tank quickly and I did a major pruning recently. Since then the frogs have been out in full force. I still have about 8-10 frogs total in the system. I haven't added any and don't plan on it. The "natural" feed system seems to work fine to sustain the frogs and the 5-7 anoles that live in the tank. All animals are healthy and I don't have to bother with cultures or buying food.
Quick review- I use the overflows to keep and maintain normal "flying"fruitflies. The frogs can easily gain access to these areas and often times hop right in and feast away.

The lizards are breeding and producing lots of tiny anoles. No babies from the frogs- or I just haven't seem them yet.
I imagine the frogs are getting to about breeding age but if they drop the tads in the water they will turn into fish food.

Stingrays:
I added a female Henlie to keep the male Leo company. I also picked up a merlin RO system because I wanted to do larger water changes. It is now set-up to do about 100 gallon water changes everyday.

Odd thing- My male leo took to eating plants- pretty strange but he ate every single plant in the aquatic section. The male leo is getting huge. 

To compensate for this fact I may do one last remodel on the system. Their is one large centerpeice rock sitting on the bottom that takes up a large area. If I remove this the ray would get that much more swimming space. Probably something to consider over the winter.


----------



## Energy

SuperSaiyanGoku said:


> Maybe Energy tore down the Viv and set up a captive tiger with a lion. The tank is big enough for a baby cub. Jk. The Leo is beautiful by the way. I used to have motoros and bred them. I had to get rid of them because my Motoro grew over 18 inches. He is in a 900 gallon custom tank now. Great set up by the way!


Thanks for the compliment and I love your user name. Glad to hear your motoro has a new home- got any pictures?


----------



## Mitch

Energy said:


> Thanks for the compliment and I love your user name. Glad to hear your motoro has a new home- got any pictures?


I think the question most of us will want to know is... do you have pictures?


----------



## Morgan Freeman

100 Gallons a day!? Wow!


----------



## Energy

Morgan Freeman said:


> 100 Gallons a day!? Wow!


yep- that's about 25% daily. Stingrays are messy and a key to keeping them healthy is good water quality and lots of changes.


----------



## Delawarejim

I've been lurking and following your tank since you first started posting. My God what an amazing set up!

The one question that keeps coming to mind is how are you accessing the inside bottom for planting and maintenance since it's 33" high? I'm thinking of converting my 110 and I know how difficult 30" is in an 18" deep tank.

Cheers.
Jim


----------



## SuperSaiyanGoku

Thanks for the compliment on the user name. I used to be a fanatic on Dragonball z stuff. As a matter of fact I have every 9 inch movie collector series action figure for a complete collection. Now I am into bleach. I love both the manga and the series. Anyways where did you find the Leo? They are pretty hard to come by. I have an even more rare fish. I have two tiger datnoids, one over 17 inches and the other at 12. I sold two of my best looking from my collection to a guy I Chicago. I recently just built a small Viv. I am going to post some pics on here soon. I just wish there was a way to post pics from my iPhone. As far as the rays, watch the male during breeding season. The male tends to be very aggressive and bites on the female's disc. I used to feed mine all kinds of foods. I would have feed them and they would get to know me. One trick is to shove Massivore Delite into shrimp and soak the shrimp in Zoe, Zocon and garlic extreme. Very nutritious and will bring out the spots more on the disc. Well have fun with the rays, they trully are majestic creatures and extremely intelligent. Let me know if you have any questions. Sorry to hear they are tearing things up in your tank. They are always blowing water into the gravel searching for food. It is in their nature to do this. Careful of the spine they shed. You will see it start to push the other one out of the way. Once it falls off be careful in your gravel sifting around cleaning. The spines stay venomous for many weeks to months in the water and out. Just get it out and put it in a container. They are pretty cool.


----------



## Energy

Sounds like you know your rays. I have kept both saltwater and freshwater rays most of my life but this leo was my first "blackie" as they are called in the trade. 

Since then I have purchased a few more and have quite a few connections established. In fact I can get them quite regularly now if I choose. Both wild caught and captive bred: black diamonds, p-14's, henlei and leo.

If you need any help or have any interest I would be glad to help you out. The Leo's and Henlei have a lot more personality than a retic or motoro. 

I use Raphashy superpig to bring out the colors of the discus, frogs and rays. I feed the rays and everything else live bloodworms and earthworms, smelt, beefheart and other frozen foods.

Occasionally I catch a big batch and dust the fruit flies with calcium and superpig. 

So far everything is doing great. I constantly watch and monitor to try and keep it that way.

The system is still young and growing. I think it has only been up for about 1.5 years or so? 

I think there must be a pretty large population of microfauna established as I don't see that many fruitflies but the frogs are very fat.

In fact in the last few months my fruit fly population in the system has dwindled to the point where I took out my big pitcher plant- I felt it might be to much competition for food with the frogs.

Since then there hasn't bee much of a change in the visible fly population established in the system but the frogs are as fat as ever. They have got to be getting there food from somewhere and as I watch them there are picking at things that I can't possibly see.


----------



## bgmike64

Pics, please!!


----------



## vivbulider

we need a update


----------



## vivbulider

we need a update


----------



## gator

Very Nice tank! I see its been a bit since the last post but I am currently in the research phase of turning my 600 gallon 8'x4'x2.5' Aquarium into a vivarium and I noticed you have a solid bottom under the terrestrial part of your tank and it had a slope rather than a true false bottom for water to drain into. The base of my tank is reasonably large as well 8'x4' and had thought about doing the same thing with the slop that headed towards a small water feature like a shallow 4"-6" deep pool. I was wondering how well that is working out? Is there enough drainage and would you use the same method if you were doing it all over again?


----------



## Energy

gator said:


> Very Nice tank! I see its been a bit since the last post but I am currently in the research phase of turning my 600 gallon 8'x4'x2.5' Aquarium into a vivarium and I noticed you have a solid bottom under the terrestrial part of your tank and it had a slope rather than a true false bottom for water to drain into. The base of my tank is reasonably large as well 8'x4' and had thought about doing the same thing with the slop that headed towards a small water feature like a shallow 4"-6" deep pool. I was wondering how well that is working out? Is there enough drainage and would you use the same method if you were doing it all over again?


No Sir- I actually removed all of the land sections and completely redid the tank. I needed more rooms for the rays and felt that althought I needed the land mass for the terrestrial animals there must be a better way to do it and be able to optimize water and land area together.

I built elevated land areas using Pvc pipe and eggrate. I set the height of the land "islands" at the height that I wanted the water section. The fish can freely swim and access all of the area beneath these elevated "islands". 

From the frogs perspective- nothing much has changed- they have about the same amount of room they had before, but the fish have about 2-3 times as much space due to lifting the constraints that the land area occupied.


----------



## stevenhman

Wow, I bet that was quite the pain in the butt! Hope the re-done tank looks as good as it did at first.

Does the water area look strange? I'm imagining shadowy darkness under the land masses.


----------



## moore40

Um..... Wow! Just wu-wow!


----------



## ryan10517

i think its about time for an update on how this tank is goin. I mean come on, this exact tank inspired me to come into this hobby  its too amazing to not keep us updated (with pics!)


----------



## steelyphil

Was that re-do in the this thread?


----------



## koolparrot

So to sum this up, where did you get your plants, mosses? I am really jelous now, sigh.


----------



## lauraleellbp

What an amazing labor of love!

I'd really love to see some updated pictures!

Did you give up on planting the aquatic portion? I didn't see any in the last FTS you posted. 

I imagine the rays would be hard on most plants... You'd probably have to stick with aquatic epiphytes (Anubias, Java ferns, etc) attached to driftwood high enough up that the rays would pass under instead (that's a suggestion if you haven't already tried it? Forgive me- I read about a full 40 pages in before skipping forward so haven't read the whole thread just yet... saving the rest for another day LOL)

Anyways- planted aquariums is my own passion that has just very recently brought me into vivariums, so if that's something you're still working on with your viv, I've got some ideas...


----------



## pnwpdf

lauraleellbp said:


> What an amazing labor of love!
> 
> I'd really love to see some updated pictures!
> 
> Did you give up on planting the aquatic portion? I didn't see any in the last FTS you posted.
> 
> I imagine the rays would be hard on most plants... You'd probably have to stick with aquatic epiphytes (Anubias, Java ferns, etc) attached to driftwood high enough up that the rays would pass under instead (that's a suggestion if you haven't already tried it? Forgive me- I read about a full 40 pages in before skipping forward so haven't read the whole thread just yet... saving the rest for another day LOL)
> 
> Anyways- planted aquariums is my own passion that has just very recently brought me into vivariums, so if that's something you're still working on with your viv, I've got some ideas...


Yeah, one of his rays decided to eat all of his aquatic plants. So he hasn't put any back in, I think.


----------



## Energy

Hi everyone- I have been very busy and haven't had much time to take pictures. Some quick shots off from my phone. All the frogs are doing well.


----------



## Wallace Grover

Looking stunning as always.

You haven't entered it into any sort of contest yet have you?


----------



## Energy

Wallace Grover said:


> Looking stunning as always.
> 
> You haven't entered it into any sort of contest yet have you?


No- is there any contests out there that include vivariums?


----------



## Wallace Grover

I think there are a few, mostly sponsored by Exo-Terra though (and you have to use their products XD).

We need a Tank of the month like RC!!


----------



## VicSkimmr

There aren't enough display tanks on this forum to do it


----------



## lauraleellbp

Wow, it really looks awesome, especially with the more mature plant growth in there!


----------



## Mitch

VicSkimmr said:


> There aren't enough display tanks on this forum to do it


I think we should have one! I'd love to enter it... even if there's no prize or anything.


----------



## frankpayne32

Still looking great. Those rays are just beautiful.


----------



## thedandelionking

The AGA aquascaping contest has a section on paludariums which I think you'd do pretty well in considering who won this year...

Amazing amazing build... truly inspiring


----------



## s6t6nic6L

a day lost in earnings, a sore posterior, too much coffee but what a fascinating read that was. to you sir, i commend. superb project.


----------



## eos

If I'm ever in Minnesota.... I'm coming over!


----------



## jordie0587

Just.... wow. I'm interning at a zoo here in Texas and we don't have ANYTHING like this!!! Currently we're breeding several types of dart frogs but this is just.... Amazing is all I can come up with.

I read all about your reef tank as well and just had to follow this one. Fantastic.

I had no idea this forum was here, I'm going to have to start reading  I managed to keep several mantella's alive until they were sold in HS (worked at a pet shop) and would love to have another vivarium of my own someday.


----------



## Bowser

So... Can I come stare at the tank for a couple of hours? Haha!


----------



## gootswa

Damn! This is serious! Why haven't I come across this until just now?
You sir are a master!


----------



## footyfourteen

a good idea that i have been wanting to try for a long time is bio balls. bio balls, the little blue plastic balls used for saltwater. bio balls take up a lot of space, they are light weight, sturdy, somewhat cheap, and you can buy in bulk very easily.


----------



## shibbyplustax

Just wanna say how truely jealous i am of this tank. It has everything that i ever wanted and looks great. You are very skilled and hope one day i can own a tank half as cool as this one. Great job!


----------



## Energy

A few updates. The frogs are doing great! A few mudskippers might be visible in the pictures. These were evening shots- the mudskippers were out, the frogs are active in the morning, all in bed at night. 

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----------



## frogparty

So fuc*ing epic!! I was wondering what had become of this Viv. I lo0o0o0ve your stingrays.

Did the mini Dutchmans pipe I sent you for this end up doin well and blooming


----------



## Energy

The dutchmans pipe got lost in about the third of 6 or 7 redo's.


----------



## frogparty

Oh well. It's looking so damn great in there. Wish I could shrink down and bivouac for a while in that Viv. Go for mudskipper rides, you know...


----------



## Energy

Back when it was a reef before the change over

Energy Reef | Salt Water Aquarium


----------



## Jungleboy

AWESOME TANK!!!! What all lives in this monster?!?!?


----------



## jacobi

Jealousy
   [jel-uh-see]

noun, plural -ous·ies for 4. 
1. 
jealous resentment against a rival, a person enjoying success or advantage, etc., or against another's success or advantage itself. 


Envy
   [en-vee] Show IPA noun, plural -vies, verb, -vied, -vy·ing. 

noun 
1. 
a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another's advantages, success, possessions, etc.


----------



## JB_orchidguy

oh my freaken Jesus! *Faints and hits the floor* Thud......After reviving. I look at the pictures again and jaw hits the floor and room starts to darken again. I am speachless. This and the reef before this are finominal. Epic is not even enough to describe the creativity and amazement you have right in your living room. Wow.


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## Rhesus Feist

Looking great Energy, I'd love to be able to have a large enough set up for freshwater rays, someday. 

I'm guessing that thing still isn't a cheap to run, but how much less do you think you spend in a year vs. when that thing was a reef tank?


----------



## dfrmav

Energy said:


> The dutchmans pipe got lost in about the third of 6 or 7 redo's.


You've redone this that many times? How long does each rebuild take? And cost? My god!


----------



## goku

Absolutelly stunning, best thing ever! I tried to follow the post from the beginning and I cannot imagine how much time thinking and planning over it do you have spent, but if I had the chance, I would do the same thing

Thank you for your effort on updating, please don't stop it!!

greetings!


----------



## Energy

Rhesus Feist said:


> Looking great Energy, I'd love to be able to have a large enough set up for freshwater rays, someday.
> 
> I'm guessing that thing still isn't a cheap to run, but how much less do you think you spend in a year vs. when that thing was a reef tank?


A lot less for maintenance expense now than when it was a reef. At least half or more. 



dfrmav said:


> You've redone this that many times? How long does each rebuild take? And cost? My god!


The rebuilds are for fun, they really aren't expensive. Thank goodness rocks and wood don't cost much.


----------



## stevenhman

Mind updating us on the livestock in that huge thing? Still looks friggin awesome. I like how the 'tunnels' turned out.


----------



## Energy

stevenhman said:


> Mind updating us on the livestock in that huge thing? Still looks friggin awesome. I like how the 'tunnels' turned out.


Sure- here is a rough livestock estimate in the main system.
4 rays-1 leo,1 P-14,1 henlie,1motoro
3 mudskippers(maybe 4) can never tell.
about 10 poison dart frogs.
Vampire crabs-5-to 10?
a few discus, tetras,guppies,small fish
One large black ghost knife-it grew fast.

I have had a few questions/possible concerns about the frogs with that much water and the potential for drowning.

The frogs have no issue with the water. I have never lost a frog to drowning and the leucs like to climb the glass all the way around the tank!

I accidentally bumped a frog into the water while working on the tank and it swam away before I could get it. I found it later sitting in a different part of the land just fine.

When hiking the jungles of Costa Rica I would find PDF's on logs and banks over the top of fast moving streams. One slip and swoosh like going down a toilet bowl but they seemed pretty stable.


----------



## Shinosuke

I remember when this was TOTM on RC but I can't figure out if I was more impressed then or now! Either way, you do amazing work and I sincerely appreciate you sharing it with us. 

Sounds like the cham's didn't work out, such a bummer. I love those critters. I'm surprised the frogs haven't bred for you by now though. I wouldn't doubt that any tads deposited in the main body of water would be gobbled up but you'd think they'd deposit some in the broms as well. I see that you still have at least a couple brom's in there, do they typically hold water?

How's this beauty doing?


----------



## Energy

Shinosuke said:


> I remember when this was TOTM on RC but I can't figure out if I was more impressed then or now! Either way, you do amazing work and I sincerely appreciate you sharing it with us.
> 
> Sounds like the cham's didn't work out, such a bummer. I love those critters. I'm surprised the frogs haven't bred for you by now though. I wouldn't doubt that any tads deposited in the main body of water would be gobbled up but you'd think they'd deposit some in the broms as well. I see that you still have at least a couple brom's in there, do they typically hold water?
> 
> How's this beauty doing?


About three times the size. The broms hold water but no tads in them that I have ever seen. I would guess the frogs have bred but their is no safe place for babies/tadpoles. The water is instant doom for tads with the stingrays, and the land has mudskippers and vampire crabs-not really predators but not overly friendly. I think it would be pretty hard to get a tad to adulthood in the system.


----------



## Energy

I have been looking for a colorful newt/salamander to the system. I was thinking about the crocodile/emporer or shanghigh newt but was worried about their toxicity and aquatic lifestyle. Mixing a toxic newt with the stingrays might be a problem.

Is their a good salamander that will work with PDF's? I already own a tiger salamander and have kept them for years but a Tiger will take out a poison dart frog quickly so they can't be kept together. My tiger is in a seperate container.

Was thinking about possibly a red eft or similiar newt or other colorful salamander. Any advice/info is appreciated and where I could get it.


----------



## zcasc

Red efts are simply the terrestrial juvenile form of the eastern newt...native to your area as well as mine. I know efts are toxic, and being that they prefer midwestern climates I am not too sure on how well one would fare in that tank. They are also very small and burrowers at that stage of their life...not sure how much enjoyment you would get out of having one anyway. If it did make it to adulthood, the aquatic adults are still real small and would probably become stingray food.

I am not too sure on any type of newt or salamander for your type of tank...most of them prefer either subterranean lifestyles or would be ray chow.

A siren or amphiuma may be a possibility, but again I don't know how much luck you would have in competing with the rays or in regards to water temperature.

Hope this helps,

Zach


----------



## Energy

zcasc said:


> Red efts are simply the terrestrial juvenile form of the eastern newt...native to your area as well as mine. I know efts are toxic, and being that they prefer midwestern climates I am not too sure on how well one would fare in that tank. They are also very small and burrowers at that stage of their life...not sure how much enjoyment you would get out of having one anyway. If it did make it to adulthood, the aquatic adults are still real small and would probably become stingray food.
> 
> I am not too sure on any type of newt or salamander for your type of tank...most of them prefer either subterranean lifestyles or would be ray chow.
> 
> A siren or amphiuma may be a possibility, but again I don't know how much luck you would have in competing with the rays or in regards to water temperature.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Zach


Thanks Zach- I would have to agree and haven't found any that would thrive in my set-up Just hoping someone knew of some obscure species that would be a perfect fit- but I guess not.


----------



## zcasc

It is too bad...I've always loved salamanders and newts as much as frogs, and although they are common I still find my tiger salamander just as amusing as the most colorful darts.

Of course, you could just throw it all to the wind and lob a few hellbenders in there for fun, or some Japanese giant salamanders...that would be heavy metal...haha


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## intelsuit

Energy said:


> Hi everyone I have a 15 foot long by 5 foot wide by 33 inch tall acrylic aquarium. I was heavily into saltwater for many years and the tank was set up as a reef. In fact it has been featured in Books and Magazines and was featured on Reef Central as Reef Tank of the month January 2008.
> 
> I am switching directions and going back to my roots. I will be converting the tank into a vivarium with a large black water lagoon and rivers edge that will hold a freshwater stingray. The land section will be for Poison Dart Frogs which I have had for quite a few years before they became popular, haha.
> 
> My question- considering the amount of space I have to fill- what is the best substrate to consider for both water and land. Details would be appreciated and if you make a recomendation if you could also list a source for the material that would be great!
> 
> What are the benefits to a false bottom and why should I consider one?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Stan



I hope that I am not the only one that is in awe and a little jealous of this 1500+ gallon tank. It sounds like so much fun to play with! I would love to see some pics of the finished product.


----------



## frogparty

Ummm... There's a ton of pics of the finished vivarium
It's not a 100 page thread for no reason


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## JPccusa

Energy said:


> Sure- here is a rough livestock estimate in the main system.
> 4 rays-1 leo,1 P-14,1 henlie,1motoro
> 3 mudskippers(maybe 4) can never tell.
> about 10 poison dart frogs.
> Vampire crabs-5-to 10?
> a few discus, tetras,guppies,small fish
> One large black ghost knife-it grew fast.


What happened to all the lizards? Still in the tank and reproducing? 
Have you lost some of the discus?
Glad to see the PDFs are still doing well. Your tank is impressive and inspirational.


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## Lifeguard

It is unreal how awesome this tank is.


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## Energy

JPccusa said:


> What happened to all the lizards? Still in the tank and reproducing?
> Have you lost some of the discus?
> Glad to see the PDFs are still doing well. Your tank is impressive and inspirational.


The anoles bred like crazy but were attracted to the fans. They would escape the tank and then crawl into the ventalation fans. They could have run away but they inevitable went for the fans!

Yeah-the discus didn't do well. They fought and beat each other up pretty bad.

The PDF's are a natural fit. 



Lifeguard said:


> It is unreal how awesome this tank is.


Thanks!



zcasc said:


> It is too bad...I've always loved salamanders and newts as much as frogs, and although they are common I still find my tiger salamander just as amusing as the most colorful darts.
> 
> Of course, you could just throw it all to the wind and lob a few hellbenders in there for fun, or some Japanese giant salamanders...that would be heavy metal...haha


My Tiger is reallycool, what a great personality. A japanese giant would rock but they are a cold water specimen. Really neat though!


----------



## intelsuit

You also mentioned vampire crabs. Do you still have them? Have they produced offspring? Have you noticed any problems having vamps with the pdf's?


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## JPccusa

I was afraid that was going to be your answer, Energy. It is unfortunate that so many animals and plants had to die along this process. I believe because money is not a constraint for you, there is less attention of your part to take precautionary measures to assure their well-being and survival. You were warned about the discus not having enough space, especially water depth. Also, for the lizards to be able to escape and find death in the fans, that means you did not follow one of the basic rules of good husbandry - avoid escapees. 

Someone earlier in this thread told you that you did not care for the animals (not quoting). Some people jumped to your defense, pointing to the fact you kept an amazing reef tank (I agree), and that you have many years of experience. I appreciate and respect your knowledge and experience. Like I told you before, this thread is very inspirational to me (I am about to venture from saltwater to PDFs myself). I just wish you would stop trying to cram rare animals in a space that it is not even safe for them. I say that with all respect for you and for nature.


----------



## Energy

intelsuit said:


> You also mentioned vampire crabs. Do you still have them? Have they produced offspring? Have you noticed any problems having vamps with the pdf's?


The vamp's and PDF's have no problems. I was more worried about the mudskippers with the PDF's but they co exist just fine. No offspring-not possible the rays take care of that.





JPccusa said:


> I was afraid that was going to be your answer, Energy. It is unfortunate that so many animals and plants had to die along this process. I believe because money is not a constraint for you, there is less attention of your part to take precautionary measures to assure their well-being and survival. You were warned about the discus not having enough space, especially water depth. Also, for the lizards to be able to escape and find death in the fans, that means you did not follow one of the basic rules of good husbandry - avoid escapees.
> 
> Someone earlier in this thread told you that you did not care for the animals (not quoting). Some people jumped to your defense, pointing to the fact you kept an amazing reef tank (I agree), and that you have many years of experience. I appreciate and respect your knowledge and experience. Like I told you before, this thread is very inspirational to me (I am about to venture from saltwater to PDFs myself). I just wish you would stop trying to cram rare animals in a space that it is not even safe for them. I say that with all respect for you and for nature.


I appreciate your opinion and concern. What is your system like? I give each PDF about 8 square feet of space-how about you? If you keep them and put more than one PDf in a 55 gallon your overcrowding compared to my set -up. Not trying to be mean but putting it into perspective for you.

Your going into saltwater?- than by your example you can have one damsel in a 450 gallon tank. Place a small pile of rocks about the size of a ice cream pail in their with(maybe) a small coral. Even that is out of sorts for their natural environment but at least it's not cruelly overcorwded like so many other set-ups. 

Not trying to be vindictive but any tank is "unnatural". More than one animal in my size tank is overcrowding. In nature although they can co-exist they don't co-habitate like we make them. All tanks are overcrowded. A newt or one pdf in a 55 gallon tank is cruel-animals like to roam and explore. Every animal owner here is guilty-including you.

Money is a concern- please don't second guess me-I work in excavation and am not a hands-off millionaire that does this for fun. I care and try to keep the animals in the best possible environment.

I tried to make a "balanced" mini representation of nature. I have documented all the success and failure here just in case it could help others. I don't want my mistakes repeated. 

I could easily avoid full disclosure-but that doesn't help anyone. I want everyone's systems to be a success.

I am not perfect but my kids think so.

BTW- I havn't killed to many animals in this whole process. I take that back- I have killed a lot of animals-everyday I feed about 100 fruitflies(there animals) 2 large smelt,a ton of bloodworms,brineshrimp and guppies. All cruelly die to feed my critters.

I only mention this because I actually have considered this in the process of keeping my system and it's affects on the grander scheme of life and balance in nature(karma). Then I watch a lion snuff out a hyena for fun on the Discovery channel and say screw it. J/K


----------



## JPccusa

Perhaps I misspoke by using "cram" in my penultimate sentence. What I meant is that you want a variety of rare animals in that space. By no means they were overcrowded (perhaps the discus?). 

My main point was that some of your animals "*inevitable* went for the fans" or "beat each other up pretty bad" because of your negligence. Unlike what you said, their deaths were avoidable. I cannot say I never killed any animals. Part of the reason why I am getting out of the saltwater hobby is because my glass heater broke and poisoned the entire system, killing all but 3 clownfish. Accidents happen, I get it! The fans incidents that killed a thriving population of lizards, in the other hand, do not sound like freaky accidents. For that and other reasons, I respectfully do not think you "care and try to keep the animals in the best possible environment." In my opinion, the wow effect of the tank and its rare inhabitants takes precedence over all the other things. 

I do appreciate you disclosing all this information though. I find important to learn with others' mistakes. Forums have experienced people telling us what would and would not work in our systems, and that information is very valuable. 

To answer your questions, I do not have any PDFs. I have been interested in them for the past 5 years, I joined the forum in 2009, and I have been pondering the idea of keeping them since then. I recently dismantled my ~100g FOWLR tank, and I should start working on a paludarium in April or May. Your tank is the inspiration for mine, by the way.  Here is my thread.


----------



## Energy

JPccusa said:


> My main point was that some of your animals "*inevitable* went for the fans" or "beat each other up pretty bad" because of your negligence. Unlike what you said, their deaths were avoidable.


There was 11 discus in 500-600 gallons of water . On the discus forums they have that many in a 110. 

I under estimated their capacity to fight. As a South American Cichlid-they are not peaceful(with each other) Constantly re-asserting the pecking order etc etc.

Mine were constantly breeding-which leads to more aggression i.e. egg guarding etc. Which leads to more fighting.

I don't consider it negligence that I didn't stop them from pairing up(natural act) and doing what is instinctual. 


BTW not all of my anoles died in the fans. Many died of old age in the system. Although you may view it as negligence -if an animal wants out- they will find it. The fans have guards over them and window screen material- still couldn't keep some Anoles away from it. That was their choice.


I think you and I view negligence differently. If I buy a dog and put him on a farm with 100 acres to run and instead he chases the cars that go by on the road am I negligent? I have given the dog food, water and plenty of land to roam and hunt and yet it wants to chase cars on a street which is dangerous.

Now to protect that dog I chain it up and there it sits all day long(because it won't stop chasing cars). I am protecting it from itself.

To you the chain may be humane but to me the chain is cruel. I am keeping the dog from living the life it wants. To me that is mean.

If the dog is running and free but dies because it wanted to chase a car -at least it lived how it wanted. It lived and died by it's own decisions.

Unfortuntely almost anything we do in this hobby falls within those guidelines. Salt,fresh,terrarium its all the same. We are taking animals out of nature and confining them for our pleasure. We justify it by saying we are protecting them from predation etc etc etc.- It's all B.S. The animals aren't born and live in little glass boxes in the real world. They roam, they explore they take risks, they live and die by their choice.

Technically the best thing we can do is live them all alone. 

You can have your pedestial back now.


----------



## 9axle

After hours reading this thread, i called my wife over and showed her what you had done. She likes the 29 gallon I have now, but the end result is that, thanks to you, a 72" tank I had stashed in my shed is once again going to grace my living room.

Thank you for sharing both your triumphs and failures, I learned from both.


----------



## JPccusa

Your dog analogy illustrates where you and I differ in this "agree to disagreement". You see the solution as chaining the dog, while I see the solution as fencing 100 acres of property. 

Another area that I disagree is that animals do not have the ability to make rational good choices. In my opinion, we are the ones who should be making the rational good choices FOR them, so they do not get killed when following instinct, being curious, etc.

By the way, congratulations on posting the 1000th reply on this thread!


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## Energy

9axle said:


> After hours reading this thread, i called my wife over and showed her what you had done. She likes the 29 gallon I have now, but the end result is that, thanks to you, a 72" tank I had stashed in my shed is once again going to grace my living room.
> 
> Thank you for sharing both your triumphs and failures, I learned from both.


Awesome! Have fun with it!



JPccusa said:


> Your dog analogy illustrates where you and I differ in this "agree to disagreement". You see the solution as chaining the dog, while I see the solution as fencing 100 acres of property.
> 
> Another area that I disagree is that animals do not have the ability to make rational good choices. In my opinion, we are the ones who should be making the rational good choices FOR them, so they do not get killed when following instinct, being curious, etc.
> 
> By the way, congratulations on posting the 1000th reply on this thread!


Fencing 100 acres of land is a lot. What happens If a tree falls on the fence or something digs under or through it? Then the dog gets out and chases that car and gets hit- your back to being negligent. Now you have roped yourself into taking care of a dog and 100 acres of fencing! from experience I can tell you that is a lot of fencing!

Anyway- enough is enough- Good luck with your system and have fun. I read the thread you started. Looks like it will be a great build!


----------



## frogparty

I'm still so continually inspired b this build. I'm so envious of the stingrays especially. M dream is to one day have a vivarium half as nice as this, but with the addition of freshwater archer fish. See the deebs 300gallon build for my other serious inspiration. I'm imagining it now, and it's awesome


----------



## Energy

Archers are fun fish. If you build it Frogparty you need to document it so we can all follow. I have read through the 300 gallon build-pretty neat for sure.

I have seen archers take out crickets-which makes me worried about the frogs. Some archers also like a little salt in the water.


Anableps "four eyed fish" are also really interesting -but again they like a little salt.


----------



## GloriaRae

Wow! Thanks for this great build thread and for keeping with the updates. So often a build thread will start out well but for whatever reason the OP disappears and we're all left wanting. I've learned a lot and I thank you. Looking forward to continued updates.

Gloria Rae


----------



## Noort

WOW that was a LOT of reading and even more to be amazed by.

I have to confess you left me with very mixed feelings, elated and a bit sad:
I am of course extremely envious of your huge 'play area' - lovely tank!
(Thank you so much for the added 'making of' etc.)
The way you put the entire dry part on stilts to give the fish lots of room is nicely done and the plantlife looks really gorgeous.

We definitely differ in the choice of animals: you prefer to have 'a little bit of everything' which I find to be not my taste at all: like all different colours dicusfish and combining frogs that will eventually interbreed. 
The one I find rather garish, the other just plain stupid. 
(A good thing nobody has the same taste/style, otherwise it would be a very boring planet!)

Just because we take animals from the wild to 'enjoy ourselves' doesn't mean *that* is the way to go. You have this gorgeous huge tank where the frogs could (and probably will) live out their lives the way that just isn't possible in smaller enclosures -> it's a pity you choose not to 'return the favour' / give something back.
It's a beautifull tank but a good looking dead end to the animals -> no population expansion only diminishing.
If anyone ever had the chance to add to our knowledge of how a large group (of PDF's) behaves and thrives in captivity it would be you!
No to mention the young purebred ones that could go on to live with other people.

(Grin; here endeth the sermon for today  )

The picture of your upside-down ray: lovely chap! It made me laugh out loud.
Never knew they spend zo much time doing backflips etc.
They look like they are having a good time. 
(Once again: pity about the mixing/ interbreeding possibility.)

I really feel sorry for your goldfish, and am surprised no one spoke up for it: the temperatures are waaaaaay to high for that species: it is a coldwaterfish!! Of course they are very cheap, hardy and eventually easy to replace ... and therefore 'not worthy' of their needs being met?

It is a wonderfull tank and I am very gratefull you decided to share all the ups and dows, do's didn't and don'ts with us. 
Your fruitfly-in-tank-breeding-spots are a smashing idea.

Just one small thing: THIS THREAD NEEDS MORE PICTS!!


----------



## frankpayne32

Posts like the above are why I so rarely post or even go on this board anymore. Here is someone who has created something amazing, something that 99% of the people on this board will never be able to do. He put it up to share with the community his amazing creation, which he didn't have to do, and many of you can only criticize and nit-pick as to what you would do differently and why it isn't perfect. No kidding it's not perfect, nothing is. If you would like to do it differently then do it differently and stop putting down what others have done until you have done something similar.


----------



## VicSkimmr

I always enjoy seeing people imply they're "champions" for animal rights, even though they willingly pull creatures from their natural habitat and place them in a tiny container for their own enjoyment.

Who gives a rats ass whether the frogs interbreed? Energy's frogs are living the high life compared to literally everyone's frogs on this forum. They have tons of space to roam and are free to have sex with whatever they feel like. It's not like he's keeping some ultra rare, hard to breed frog in there.

If you're planning on getting into saltwater fish tanks (or worse, reef tanks), you have literally no room to talk. That hobby is directly detrimental to the natural environment of the species you plan to keep in a tank.


----------



## Noort

Whoa, you guys are touchy!
(pardon my european sense of humour)
I tried to keep it light.

With the worldwide collaps of frogpopulations in the wild he (and we) could very well have some 'endangered species' in our care before we know it.
So yes, I do give a rat's behind 

Energy has a created nice chunk of tropical paradise (or rather: a small country  ), I just thought it would be great if it could also be a sanctuary/ breeding place. 

To purposely misquote: "With a great tank comes great responsibility"


----------



## frankpayne32

The dart frogs he is keeping have VERY well established populations in captivity. They will not be going extinct any time soon thanks to captive breeding, both private and professional.

It wasn't your "sense of humor" and it wasn't just you. Many others, like yourself, criticize others work on this and other threads. I no longer contribute on this board because of the sanctimonious and irrational hypocrisy that goes on around here. This has been the only thread I subscribe to and I have been subscribed for a very long time. I am going to unsubscribe now because I just can't take this sort of negativity and hate what this community has become.



Noort said:


> Whoa, you guys are touchy!
> (pardon my european sense of humour)
> I tried to keep it light.
> 
> With the worldwide collaps of frogpopulations in the wild he (and we) could very well have some 'endangered species' in our care before we know it.
> So yes, I do give a rat's behind
> 
> Energy has a created nice chunk of tropical paradise (or rather: a small country  ), I just thought it would be great if it could also be a sanctuary/ breeding place.
> 
> To purposely misquote: "With a great tank comes great responsibility"


----------



## JPccusa

_Forum: A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged._

People are going to disagree with you, and that should be expected. Energy did a great service to this forum by creating and documenting such an amazing tank. I have thanked him several times for that. But yes, if you can't take criticism, do not post to a forum. 

Unfortunately, I disagree with the way Energy chose to keep his animals. Because this is a forum, I can say so freely. Energy is one of the few members who can turn around and say my 100g tank is too small and inhumane for keeping PDFs. That would be his opinion for me to disagree with. The fact that he has chosen to share his amazing tank with us do not take him off the hook for other things. Would an architect be taken off the hook if the most beautiful house fell, killing the entire family inside? 

And to be clear, I never implied PETA style animal rights, but this is a place where ideas are exchanged for the betterment of the hobby. All I expressed was my discontentment with Energy's husbandry and "ultimate goal" for his tank. Animals in such an amazing tank should not die in the ventilation system, for example. 

With all that said, Energy and I already settled our difference in opinions. I just wanted to make sure people do not misinterpret what I am saying. I too belong to the bunch who chooses to keep animals in a "tiny" container away from their natural habitat. I also have nothing against interbreeding (thus far).


----------



## Ed

VicSkimmr said:


> I always enjoy seeing people imply they're "champions" for animal rights, even though they willingly pull creatures from their natural habitat and place them in a tiny container for their own enjoyment.





VicSkimmr said:


> They have tons of space to roam


I'm going to flag these comments (since I'm working backwards..). This is an argument that more space *automatically* *must be better* which is not an appropriate assumption. As I've pointed out before, you could have a 30 foot by 30 foot by 30 foot room and depending on how the resources for the frogs are placed you could have all of the frogs trying to live for example in a 3 foot by 3 foot by 3 foot area or a 10 by 10 by 2 foot area or some other combination..... Arguments based solely on space do not indicate the amount of area that is suitable for the frogs... *This means, it cannot be used for or against whether the enclosure is proper for the frogs or any other animal. **It is a meaningless metric.* 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## skanderson

energy always enjoy looking at your build. it was one of the inspirations for my build, as was the reef that preceded it. please be tolerant of differing opinions on mixing. if the nagging starts to get you down just ignore the naysayers, enjoy your viv, and at least occasionally update those of us who really enjoy this build with pics. thanks again, steve


----------



## VicSkimmr

Ed said:


> I'm going to flag these comments (since I'm working backwards..). This is an argument that more space *automatically* *must be better* which is not an appropriate assumption. As I've pointed out before, you could have a 30 foot by 30 foot by 30 foot room and depending on how the resources for the frogs are placed you could have all of the frogs trying to live for example in a 3 foot by 3 foot by 3 foot area or a 10 by 10 by 2 foot area or some other combination..... Arguments based solely on space do not indicate the amount of area that is suitable for the frogs... *This means, it cannot be used for or against whether the enclosure is proper for the frogs or any other animal. **It is a meaningless metric.*
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


That's all true, but I don't think it applies here.


----------



## VicSkimmr

JPccusa said:


> _Forum: A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged._
> 
> People are going to disagree with you, and that should be expected. Energy did a great service to this forum by creating and documenting such an amazing tank. I have thanked him several times for that. But yes, if you can't take criticism, do not post to a forum.
> 
> Unfortunately, I disagree with the way Energy chose to keep his animals. Because this is a forum, I can say so freely. Energy is one of the few members who can turn around and say my 100g tank is too small and inhumane for keeping PDFs. That would be his opinion for me to disagree with. The fact that he has chosen to share his amazing tank with us do not take him off the hook for other things. Would an architect be taken off the hook if the most beautiful house fell, killing the entire family inside?
> 
> And to be clear, I never implied PETA style animal rights, but this is a place where ideas are exchanged for the betterment of the hobby. All I expressed was my discontentment with Energy's husbandry and "ultimate goal" for his tank. Animals in such an amazing tank should not die in the ventilation system, for example.


I'm honestly curious as to how you justify your stance. You've never lost a fish to a powerhead? Never had one go carpet surfing? Never lost one due to stress, or inter-species aggression?

I would expect anyone who has been into fish for any period of time would realize that no matter how "safe" you attempt to make your enclosure, your animals will still be able to find ways to kill themselves and each other. Am I just misunderstanding?


----------



## Ed

VicSkimmr said:


> That's all true, but I don't think it applies here.


You used as an argument that the frogs were well kept. I flagged it because it has no meaning as part of an argument for or against..so yes it does apply. 

Ed


----------



## MrMonterrubio

I really like your tank, but I havent seen many pictures of it (and the stingrays living inside), so... I just went through all your Photobucket pictures, and I most say:



HOLLY MOTHER OF JESUS!!!

*
ARE YOU MAD!?!?!?!*

I'm green in envy and purple of astonishing!

Despite the size of that monster, you have in it:

Eels?
Purple crabs?
Dwarf Chameleons?
Costa Rican snakes?


I mean, next thing we know you'll have a hole Amazonian Tribe in there!


Good job, man.

I know those little girls of yours will grow knowing a lot about ecology. 

Keep it up


----------



## Energy

MrMonterrubio said:


> I really like your tank, but I havent seen many pictures of it (and the stingrays living inside), so... I just went through all your Photobucket pictures, and I most say:
> 
> 
> 
> HOLLY MOTHER OF JESUS!!!
> 
> *
> ARE YOU MAD!?!?!?!*
> 
> I'm green in envy and purple of astonishing!
> 
> Despite the size of that monster, you have in it:
> 
> Eels?
> Purple crabs?
> Dwarf Chameleons?
> Costa Rican snakes?
> 
> 
> I mean, next thing we know you'll have a hole Amazonian Tribe in there!
> 
> 
> Good job, man.
> 
> I know those little girls of yours will grow knowing a lot about ecology.
> 
> Keep it up



Haha- no most of those pictures are from my excursions in the jungles- not in my aquarium.


----------



## Energy

Noort said:


> Whoa, you guys are touchy!
> (pardon my european sense of humour)
> I tried to keep it light.
> 
> With the worldwide collaps of frogpopulations in the wild he (and we) could very well have some 'endangered species' in our care before we know it.
> So yes, I do give a rat's behind
> 
> Energy has a created nice chunk of tropical paradise (or rather: a small country  ), I just thought it would be great if it could also be a sanctuary/ breeding place.
> 
> To purposely misquote: "With a great tank comes great responsibility"


The system is Ultimately designed for 2 species- rays and frogs. The rays do breed and if you look at the photos of the back room it is filled with seperation tanks for the pups. 

The frogs do breed as well but because of the chance of interbreeding and the general consensus against it - they are not for sale- furthermore I choose to purchase hybrids from other hobbyist's versus having them killed or culled to keep a pure blood line. 

I firmly and totally believe God loves all his creations and man is meant to protect them- so you can go ahead and kill them but I won't.

I don't agree with the PDF breeders that kill tads because "they might not be pure".

I'll keep them and you can have your purebred's. I like them just the same.

And if all the PDF's in the world dissappear then rest assured I will put up a bunch of rearing containers and do my best to save the population!

Until that happens I will just give them the best home I can and not judge them if a yellow one wants to get funky with a blue one.


----------



## Energy

Ed said:


> You used as an argument that the frogs were well kept. I flagged it because it has no meaning as part of an argument for or against..so yes it does apply.
> 
> Ed


Ok - Possibly true but off topic and a thread derail. If you want to have discussion's such as this please do it in Pm's and lets keep this clean. This thread is meant to help people understand a build process, the pro's and con's and document the progress-good and bad.


----------



## Energy

Ed said:


> I'm going to flag these comments (since I'm working backwards..). This is an argument that more space *automatically* *must be better* which is not an appropriate assumption. As I've pointed out before, you could have a 30 foot by 30 foot by 30 foot room and depending on how the resources for the frogs are placed you could have all of the frogs trying to live for example in a 3 foot by 3 foot by 3 foot area or a 10 by 10 by 2 foot area or some other combination..... Arguments based solely on space do not indicate the amount of area that is suitable for the frogs... *This means, it cannot be used for or against whether the enclosure is proper for the frogs or any other animal. **It is a meaningless metric.*
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


After spending months in the jungles of Costa Rica I learned alot about the various dart frog species hobbyists and pro's keep. The frogs voluntarily choose habitats that many on these boards say are not in line with their needs. 

I found PDF's that choose to live in rotting logs over fast flowing streams and in dangerous environments where they thrived. Others preferred, dryer higher elevations with no nearby water source etc etc. These are all the same frogs I see set-up in the exact same set-ups, with misters and foggers- things these frogs never see in the wild and subject to unrealistic conditions.

Basically it is impossible for anyone to replicate their "natural" environment. Unless you make an effort to collect the frogs themselves and then duplicate the specialized environment that particular frog came from all you are doing is guessing.


----------



## Neon Gliding Lizard

Hello- 

First off, this is one of the most interesting and amazing vivs I have seen. You have clearly spent a lot of time and research on it. 

I don't know if you are still planning to add any geckos any time soon but I would advise you not too. Mainly because the water. Day geckos are terrible swimmers, especially any type of Lygodactylus. I'm not trying to say your doing anything wrong at all since this is a very amazing cage but since Electric Blue Geckos are endangered now I would stay away from adding them to this tank. I would hate to see a good breeder to the species die.

Sorry if this has already been cleared up. I haven't seen this so I started from page 1-103. ( a little tired right now lol  ) 

By all means am I not criticizing your tank what so ever, I just got worried about the electric blue.

Thank you 

Noen Glider


----------



## Noort

Energy said:


> The system is Ultimately designed for 2 species- rays and frogs. The rays do breed and if you look at the photos of the back room it is filled with seperation tanks for the pups.
> 
> The frogs do breed as well but because of the chance of interbreeding and the general consensus against it - they are not for sale- furthermore I choose to purchase hybrids from other hobbyist's versus having them killed or culled to keep a pure blood line.
> 
> I firmly and totally believe God loves all his creations and man is meant to protect them- so you can go ahead and kill them but I won't.
> 
> I don't agree with the PDF breeders that kill tads because "they might not be pure".
> 
> I'll keep them and you can have your purebred's. I like them just the same.
> 
> And if all the PDF's in the world dissappear then rest assured I will put up a bunch of rearing containers and do my best to save the population!
> 
> Until that happens I will just give them the best home I can and not judge them if a yellow one wants to get funky with a blue one.


Hi Energy  thank you for that one!

I also wouldn't deliberately kill a frog because of his/her mixed origins.

It's just with everything going wrong in the wild I tend to freak out a little when people start mixing/dimishing populations even more, sorry if I reacted to strongly -sometimes nuances are still a bit difficult/ not-native speaker etc.- it wasn't meant personally or to put you down.

(Grinnn, if you wanted to send me some purebreds I wouldn't say 'no' of course / sorry , I'm feeling rather impish today  it's 2:47 AM now)

Are your rays already trying for parenthood? WOW they must really, really love the tank!

LOL maybe you *should* start with those containers, just in case


----------



## Ed

Energy said:


> After spending months in the jungles of Costa Rica I learned alot about the various dart frog species hobbyists and pro's keep. The frogs voluntarily choose habitats that many on these boards say are not in line with their needs.
> 
> I found PDF's that choose to live in rotting logs over fast flowing streams and in dangerous environments where they thrived. Others preferred, dryer higher elevations with no nearby water source etc etc. These are all the same frogs I see set-up in the exact same set-ups, with misters and foggers- things these frogs never see in the wild and subject to unrealistic conditions.
> 
> Basically it is impossible for anyone to replicate their "natural" environment. Unless you make an effort to collect the frogs themselves and then duplicate the specialized environment that particular frog came from all you are doing is guessing.


I kind of want to say "So" to this response since it doesn't address the issue about making the arguement based on space (either pro or against) is valid. 

I also have to point out that your argument on "choice" of habitat has little value as a pro or anti argument since you aren't able to account for (since you weren't monitoring population fluctuations and reproductive success) whether or not the frogs were in a location(s) that were either population sinks or fringe habitat. 

Ed


----------



## muskrat24

It took me a while to try reading through the thread. Ended up skimming the last bit but I do have to say that is an beautiful viv. Thank you for sharing it with us.


----------



## Energy

Video for you all.


----------



## JPccusa

Amazing paludarium! Thanks for the video.


----------



## Energy

Noort said:


> Hi Energy  thank you for that one!
> 
> I also wouldn't deliberately kill a frog because of his/her mixed origins.
> 
> It's just with everything going wrong in the wild I tend to freak out a little when people start mixing/dimishing populations even more, sorry if I reacted to strongly -sometimes nuances are still a bit difficult/ not-native speaker etc.- it wasn't meant personally or to put you down.
> 
> (Grinnn, if you wanted to send me some purebreds I wouldn't say 'no' of course / sorry , I'm feeling rather impish today  it's 2:47 AM now)
> 
> Are your rays already trying for parenthood? WOW they must really, really love the tank!
> 
> LOL maybe you *should* start with those containers, just in case


Hi Noort- In the end if we are on this forum it's because we are trying to learn what's best for our animals and that's whats important. We all have the best intentions-just different opinions how to get there.



Ed said:


> I kind of want to say "So" to this response since it doesn't address the issue about making the arguement based on space (either pro or against) is valid.
> 
> I also have to point out that your argument on "choice" of habitat has little value as a pro or anti argument since you aren't able to account for (since you weren't monitoring population fluctuations and reproductive success) whether or not the frogs were in a location(s) that were either population sinks or fringe habitat.
> 
> Ed


Good Point Ed.



muskrat24 said:


> It took me a while to try reading through the thread. Ended up skimming the last bit but I do have to say that is an beautiful viv. Thank you for sharing it with us.


Thanks for the compliment! Glad you liked it.



JPccusa said:


> Amazing paludarium! Thanks for the video.


Thanks for watching it. 

Never made a video before - took me 7 years to get around to doing it and 2 days to figure out how to film it, edit, cut it, and finally post it to the you tube- so I'm not exaggerating when I say I'm glad you liked it.


----------



## enfinite5

that thing is so insane! great work!


----------



## Energy

enfinite5 said:


> that thing is so insane! great work!


Thanks Dude!


----------



## Energy

Currently in Costa Rica- Blue Jeans frogs are everywhere. Here is a few shots.



























Found a pair of green and Black living on the side of a hill, in a rotting log, over a stream, with a 5 foot drop off. Here is a shot of their habitat.









Anybody know what kind this is?









Cool shot of a wasp attacking a grasshopper.


----------



## stevenhman

Top 3 are Oophaga granulifera 'Quepos' (?) or 'Nominant' - I'm not familiar with the different grannies.

Last one... something that starts with M ?

Nice pictures!


----------



## Energy

stevenhman said:


> Top 3 are Oophaga granulifera 'Quepos' (?) or 'Nominant' - I'm not familiar with the different grannies.
> 
> Last one... something that starts with M ?
> 
> Nice pictures!


Thanks- Currently I'm just south of Quepo's in Uvita. About 30-45 minutes away so that would make sense. I have seen more this trip than all other's combined. Had a large Auratus sitting poolside on our back patio.


----------



## ClintonJ

Thanks for the pictures! Keep 'em comin! That place is paradise!


----------



## Rakkikira

Well it's been three days and I finally caught up! 

You're tank is amazing and I love the pics you posted of Costa Rica. My school has an short exchange program where you get to visit the zoos, zipline through the jungle, and improve your spanish(though they list the priorities a little differently than I do)

I'm definitely going to look into doing it next summer


----------



## Boiga

Where did you get all of your plants? I'll probably learn a bit more about what you did after completely reading through this, so that will be helpful. 

I'm hoping to make something a lot like this, except without water as I have no aquarium experience. I'll probably stick to one species (either R. _reticulatus_ or M. _aurantiaca_). I am hoping to acquire a 250 Gallon tank, but the seller has not replied. 

You are a true inspiration.


----------



## Energy

Boiga said:


> Where did you get all of your plants? I'll probably learn a bit more about what you did after completely reading through this, so that will be helpful.
> 
> I'm hoping to make something a lot like this, except without water as I have no aquarium experience. I'll probably stick to one species (either R. _reticulatus_ or M. _aurantiaca_). I am hoping to acquire a 250 Gallon tank, but the seller has not replied.
> 
> You are a true inspiration.


Thanks! Really nothing unusual for plants in the system. Can find those anywhere- I think most of mine are riccia, javamoss and other normal varieties.


----------



## Duff

Energy - WOW, what an 2 day epic read on your set up I just did. Simply Amazing... I especially enjoyed your recent video! The transformation over the years was fascinating to watch. Land goes up, land comes down and back up, lol. 

Are the stingrays in the back room tank babies from your current rays? You also mentioned along the way that you had an Alligator Gar, any chance for a picture of him (or her)? 27 years old? Amazing  

Your right about the forum being a great place for learning and hearing others opinions (the general gist I have gotten from all the posts) Without this we might have little chance of learning. It's been interesting to see the various points of view and I appreciate the fact that you have been so open about the good and the (occasionally rare) bad. 

Thank you for sharing your build details, It's amazing how much I have learned in 2 days!

Keep up the amazing work!


----------



## DragonSpirit1185

WOW 
I just spent the entire afternoon skimming over this thread.
I noticed at one point you said the Anoles went up the vents. I figured you had window screen or something on there to keep them from going in there.

Anyway it is an spectacular paludarium and I hope to see more of it in the future.


----------



## tnwalkers

just spent the last day or so going thru this thread epic build. thank you for sharing your highs and lows of your journey, i have learned alot.
i was curious to know about the fake logs you made out of the piping....did the survive the evolution of the build? did the moss take them over as planned? again congrats on the build any updates would be great 

thanks


----------



## kris_Standfield

Idk if someone has asked yet cause theres like 105 pages on this thred lol but how did you elavate the land so you have 100% open water on the bottom for your rays and fish to use?


----------



## jermajestyg

Kris, I'm pretty sure that he stacked slate underneath the land area as supports. He then put his eggcrate frame on top of the slate supports and added more slate and soil on top of that. In that sense, the water is still not 100% open, just extremely less crowded then it was at the very beginning of the build when he had built the land up with straight soil, taking away almost 2/3 of the water portion.

Hope it helps,


-Jeremy


----------



## kris_Standfield

Thats what I was thinking was done but wasent 100% sure cause I didnt know if the egg crate would hold up with just a few slates stacked up along the sides of it. This build has inspired me so much over the last few months and im now at the begginging stages of building myself one for my dart frogs and I will be getting a ray. Mine is just much much smaller lol


----------



## Apistograndma

wow only took me three days to get caught up with the present day.

very nice tank (showed my lady and she said no F'n way) and a very informative thread, full of information for someone about to build a paladarium. I found tons of info on here so thanks to all the contributing members.

I saw at the begingin you had a ropefish. I've always kept ropes and i love them. they are great in groups and i was wondering how yours faired, and if you ever found him checkin out dry land? 


derf


----------



## snake54320

Could we have an update please ? 
A full tank shot would be nice  

In know this post is old, but I think everyone will think interesting to see the evolution of this ""tank"" (it's maybe a little bit to big to be called that way...) ! 

Regards,
Snake


----------



## Energy

tnwalkers said:


> just spent the last day or so going thru this thread epic build. thank you for sharing your highs and lows of your journey, i have learned alot.
> i was curious to know about the fake logs you made out of the piping....did the survive the evolution of the build? did the moss take them over as planned? again congrats on the build any updates would be great
> 
> thanks


None of the fake logs made it. I ended up with all real driftwood in the end. It's just more fun.



kris_Standfield said:


> Idk if someone has asked yet cause theres like 105 pages on this thred lol but how did you elavate the land so you have 100% open water on the bottom for your rays and fish to use?


I used PVC pipes to elevate the land areas.



jermajestyg said:


> Kris, I'm pretty sure that he stacked slate underneath the land area as supports. He then put his eggcrate frame on top of the slate supports and added more slate and soil on top of that. In that sense, the water is still not 100% open, just extremely less crowded then it was at the very beginning of the build when he had built the land up with straight soil, taking away almost 2/3 of the water portion.
> 
> Hope it helps,
> 
> 
> -Jeremy


A little bit of slate is stacked-just enough to hide any pipes but not so much to take up space. 



Apistograndma said:


> wow only took me three days to get caught up with the present day.
> 
> very nice tank (showed my lady and she said no F'n way) and a very informative thread, full of information for someone about to build a paladarium. I found tons of info on here so thanks to all the contributing members.
> 
> I saw at the begingin you had a ropefish. I've always kept ropes and i love them. they are great in groups and i was wondering how yours faired, and if you ever found him checkin out dry land?
> 
> 
> derf


I never caught the ropefish checking out the beach.


----------



## AuberyMirkwood

Wow! After a three day read I have devoured every word on this thread. Thank you so much Energy for sharing this with us, it is truly an inspiration! While I had a good idea of what I wanted to do for my first build your work has given me many tremendous ideas to improve upon my design and certainly saved me from many mistakes.


----------



## JrayJ

More Pics. More Pics. Here. Here.


----------



## rigel10

Sorry for OT, but I'm curious: is this the longest thread on Dendroboard? 105 pages! Greetings


----------



## Julio

rigel10 said:


> Sorry for OT, but I'm curious: is this the longest thread on Dendroboard? 105 pages! Greetings


I think that has to do with your personal settings is only 27 on my end


----------



## rigel10

I'm not so practical with settings and more. To me this thread contains 106 pages now with your post! Thanks Julio


----------



## Tolan

Julio said:


> I think that has to do with your personal settings is only 27 on my end


I'm pretty sure that with default settings it's 106; I changed my settings to 40(?) posts a page and it's 27 too, but with the default (10 per page I think) it'd be 106 pages.


----------



## zachxbass

Wow


Sent from my kindle fire using tapatalk


----------



## Energy

The Ultimate rare fish- Xanthic or Golden gar.


----------



## Julio

Pretty cool, that. Tank. Has seen a lot of different setups, all been pretty sweet


----------



## JoshsDragonz

It's cool to see that the tank is still up and running! The Gar are awesome!


----------



## rigel10

JoshsDragonz said:


> It's cool to see that the tank is still up and running! The Gar are awesome!


And they are also expensive!

Congrats for this addition


----------



## frogparty

I love this tank. I love the gar too. Personally Im a bigger fan of arowana, but I think a silver aro might still EVENTUALLY outgrow that tank correct?


----------



## JPccusa

frogparty said:


> I love this tank. I love the gar too. Personally Im a bigger fan of arowana, but I think a silver aro might still EVENTUALLY outgrow that tank correct?


Yes (they get to be up to 35 inches), and so will the gar.


----------



## Energy

JPccusa said:


> Yes (they get to be up to 35 inches), and so will the gar.


No- those Gar are Florida and shortnose. Max size is 20-24". An Alligator gar on the other hand will grow 6+ feet.


----------



## jacobi

Do you still have dart frogs in there?


----------



## Energy

jacobi said:


> Do you still have dart frogs in there?


Yes there are still dart frogs in there.


----------



## ch3tt

Just spent several hours watching the progression of this habitat. All i have to say is well done, very inspiring work!


----------



## Dooley1

I will have to go back and follow this thread all the way through. The ingenuity possessed and the incredible displays that people on this forum build blow my mind. I have never seen anything like this outside of a zoo.


----------



## jdecker5563

This tank still up and running?


----------



## Energy

Some shots I took today. This has become a self sustaining ecosystem for the frogs. I haven't officially fed them for over a year. I also haven't added any new frogs since the initial stocking years ago. The microflora and fauna have flourished enough to provide all the food the frogs need. This can be by not "overstocking" the system and giving it time to establish a healthy baseline. I also hope this system will be proof enough to disprove the myth that poison dart frogs "drown". If that was true they would have all died years ago.


----------



## Energy

Another shot of the tank. You can see a 30" inch "Snow" alligator gar in the system.


----------



## rabu92

Energy said:


> I also hope this system will be proof enough to disprove the myth that poison dart frogs "drown". If that was true they would have all died years ago.


That gives me some peace of mind, because that was a big worry for my paludarium. Also, the self-sustaining is amazing. I'm hoping to get at least semi self-sustaining in mine.


----------



## Energy

A couple recent shots.


----------



## Energy

And another


----------



## aggiegrad2012

Being a reefer, it was hard to see that amazing tank be taken down, what a beautiful system it was! 

Seeing this now, you have done wonders with the conversion! Congrats on a great build and beautiful fish!


----------



## nrbelk

This looks so amazing! I currently have a 300 gallon reef and was actually thinking about tearing it down and doing a paludarium.

Do you miss your reef? That is the hardest dilemma I'm having, is if I'll miss my reef too much.


----------



## Energy

Yes- I do miss the reef-but not the energy bill associated with it. Not the "red Bugs" that infest corals, battling phosphates, 400 gallon water changes that cost almost $150 in salt and DI resin, etc etc. 
This system is totally automated and costs about 1/2 as much.


----------



## kangadrew

Hello Energy! What can I say about this tank? It's not even a tank - it's an entire ecosystem! I have spent the last few hours reading this thread, and I have never been more jealous of a tank in my life! I currently have a 20g paludarium for my turtle, and I thought it looked cool when I started it; then I saw this masterpiece, and mine was put to shame! You and your tank are what I aspire to someday be. (Sorry, I'm sure you've heard things like that throughout this entire thread). 

Don't worry about the people acting like animal rights activists on here - in order to learn new things, you have to make risks and sacrifices. No risk means no reward. It's a same they turned on you like that, especially the vieja guy or whatever. They were very constructive in the beginning of this build.

I know this has been a really long reply, and that this may be a lot to ask, but is there any way I could get a list of all the critters that have EVER lived in this beautiful tank? Not including when it was a reef setup, which was also an amazing setup. An updated FTS would be great, if you don't mind. Thanks a TON, 

Drew


----------



## Energy

I'm glad you enjoy the tank! The few people that have had an issue with this system are hardly a bother. Most are concerned for the health of the animals which is a good thing. They just follow along and buy into the misconception that poison dart frogs can drown(seems to be the main issue). I would guess most of the people raising concerns have never actually been to the PDF's natural environment where they live (literally) along side large water pools and sometimes directly over them.
I am familiar with their natural environment because I have a house in UVITA Costa Rica and also own 100 acres of Primary rainforest adjacent to Corcovado National Park in Costa Rica. I hike and stay in the jungles extensively. Actually being where the PDF's live changes your mind beyond what you can learn from keeping them in a 10 gallon cage 

In their natural habitat you find the largest concentrations of PDF's around freshwater supplies-most of which of course are 12-48" deep or more. A little deeper than the shallow bowls most people feel safe putting in a PDF enclosure.
I say let them Bark- it shows they care-which is Great! In the meantime I know the truth.


----------



## braydens

hey question - how do you self sustain without having to dust the food?


----------



## epiphytes etc.

How many frogs did you start with, and how many do you have now?


----------



## nrbelk

I made the jump and took down my reef and am working on converting the tank to a vivarium with a pond section.

I would like your thoughts on the pond section.

Do you keep your water supply different, aquarium water for fish and a new supply for misting/rain? Or do you pull it all from the same reservoir/sump?

I was thinking of having discus and just pull water from the sump to mist the plants with using an auto mister. I would have water falls and stream run into the pond section and a stream running back out to the the drain which would go to the sump. Maybe like 50 to 100 gph for around 40 gallons of display pond (plus another 20 for sump). Do I need more water circulation than this in your opinion?


----------



## Ad88

Wow, read all the pages! Nicely done


----------



## DragonSpirit1185

nrbelk said:


> I made the jump and took down my reef and am working on converting the tank to a vivarium with a pond section.
> 
> I would like your thoughts on the pond section.
> 
> Do you keep your water supply different, aquarium water for fish and a new supply for misting/rain? Or do you pull it all from the same reservoir/sump?
> 
> I was thinking of having discus and just pull water from the sump to mist the plants with using an auto mister. I would have water falls and stream run into the pond section and a stream running back out to the the drain which would go to the sump. Maybe like 50 to 100 gph for around 40 gallons of display pond (plus another 20 for sump). Do I need more water circulation than this in your opinion?


A water feature containing discus would be way too big. 40 gallons is a lot.
I wouldn't recommend and water features for froglets. Adults are stronger
and won't drown so easy.
If you aren't going to house dart frogs you could get some other kind of species that could handle big water features.
Though he had had lots if luck so if you wanna go for it then go for it 
People don't like how big my water feature is but I have tested the frogs abilities to swim and they can get out of the water easy.
We don't use the same water for misting. We have a reservoir of reverse osmosis water that the pump draws from. The water feature water would be dirty and would clog your misting heads.
Just go through the site and do loads of research

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy SIII using tapatalk


----------



## pdfCrazy

epiphytes etc. said:


> How many frogs did you start with, and how many do you have now?


and how many times have they been replaced?


----------



## Energy

Here is the latest update. I have removed all the frogs to let the plants take over and grow outside of the system. FYI-Not One frog drown in all the years they were in there.

https://youtu.be/HFZu04gf9F0


----------



## rigel10

How many frogs you have removed in the end?


----------



## LowSalubrityThug

Energy said:


> Here is the latest update. I have removed all the frogs to let the plants take over and grow outside of the system. FYI-Not One frog drown in all the years they were in there.


Fantastic read, great tank, hats off to you sir.

How much maintenance (hours/month) do you estimate is required to run a tank like this?


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## scapegoat

This is an incredible journey. I've a 6' (125g) planted freshwater aquarium I'm debating on switching over; and after seeing this I might just have to start planing that.


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## cwb123

Hey is there any updates on this? Also amazing job!


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