# Flying with frogs?



## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

I just recently got into darts, and have 4 imis in a quarantine container, and have recently picked up a couple of azureus tads. I'm going down to Florida this thursday, and staying for 6 weeks with my parents until mid august when I come back to MI for school. I'll be driving back up in august, so I'm not too worried about that part, but my car's already down in florida now, so I'm flying down. my plan from when I got my frogs was that since they're froglets, I can keep them in their quarantine to bring them down to florida, and let their 55g tank grow in while i'm gone, and put them in it when I get back. the tads are a father's day present for my dad, I figured with the extended time I'll be down there I can help him morph out the tads, and he's got a spare 20g tank that I can set up for them while they morph out as well. 

PROBLEM: Looking around on the board, I noticed an old post about IAD, and people buying frogs while there, and the issue of flying home with them. I somehow overlooked the fact that bringing frogs onto a plane isn't permitted. I know there are success stories of doing so, but I've been running ideas through my head on how I should go about it. I'm thinking at worst I could move them around just to get through security, then as soon as I'm through I can go in a bathroom or something and get everything back to their normal setups.

First of all, I don't plan on carrying anything in my backpack other than what's necessary. Nothing metal, nothing to draw attention to the bag.

Frogs:
Would they be okay just leaving them in their 190oz quarantine (sphagnum moss, clippings, film canisters, moisture), or would they see a mini-terrarium on the xray and ask questions? In that case, the thought crossed my mind of taking apart their enclosure, putting moss/clippings in ziplocks, and while going through security have the frogs in film canisters with lids in my backpack, so the enclosure would just look like a big tupperware container, and I'd have some plants in a bag. I know it's not ideal, and inhumane for the frogs, but like I said before it would only be until I get through security, then I'd have all the materials to put their setup back to normal before I even get on the plane. 

Tads: 
The issue here is the liquids rules. I checked the airline's website and they give a tutorial on what's allowed, you can have a quart sized ziplock filled with 3oz or less containers of liquids. I was thinking about a similar idea for the tads as I had with the frogs, getting some 3 oz containers at meijer or something, putting the 2 tads into their own containers, then the remaining tadpole tea into other 3oz containers, and put their deli cups/lids in my backpack empty. Send it through security, then empty all the containers back into their original deli cups, and good to go. I'd mark all the containers to make sure to not mix the tad's waters, so that's not an issue. 

Thoughts: I haven't flown on a plane since they've changed the liquids rules, so I'm wondering if they look at all the liquids you bring on individually, or just kind of let them go through as long as they're all under 3oz. I wouldn't want them to inspect them all closely and see a little tad swimming around in one of them.

Also, would tads/frogs show up on xrays? I don't know much about this technology, but for instance with the tads, a bag full of liquid containers, would they see a black spot on the xrays in 2 of the containers, and pull me aside to figure out what it is? 

In the past few hours I've put a lot of thinking into this, I'm terrible at breaking rules/laws and talking about it face to face with an authoritative figure. I'd really just like a smooth transaction here.

Any help/previous experiences/suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Try this thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... t=security


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Thank you, I saw that thread, however it's dated back to 2005, and I was hoping to get some feedback on more recent experiences, seeing as they've changed some of the carryon rules with TSA in the past few years. Appreciate the response nonetheless.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Kevin,

The TSA folks seem to have an uncanny ability to spot liquids during the scan so I think your tads would show up and you would have an interesting time explaining what was going on...besides I think the 3 oz. rule is for personal items and I don't think tadpoles in water fall into that category. Any TSA person worth their salt will notice you have liquid filled containers that aren't the usual travel items. You are required to place all of your liquid items in the quart bag separate from your other luggage (or on top of it) as it goes through the scanner.

Also based on traveling the past few weeks we are either undergoing an increase in the terror alert level or someone is goosing the TSA folks to step it up...I've seen some pretty aggressive enforcement of the rules. I'm sure there is some sleepy backwater where it doesn't matter but getting through security in the major travel centers has been an adventure. 

Your best bet is to ship everything overnight to your destination...if it was just the frogs no problems but the tads and their liquid make it problematic.

Good luck.

Bill


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

hmm I am going to NWFF this year... do you think I will be able to bring back frogs without problems now a days?


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

hey, i was on an airplane a few weeks ago and the zip lock bag with your liquids and personal items has to be taken out of your carry on so they can inspect it. if anything is over 3 ounces they make you toss it or ship it. Your best bet is to wear like cargo shorts and before you get on the plane put the frogs and tadpoles in film canisters and put them in your pockets( pockets are large in cargo shorts). Security doesnt pat you down, unless you attract it to you, and so you should be fine. The only thing though is if they catch you with animals youre probably not going to be able to fly that day and may even be arrested, especially if theyre squeezed into film canisters. If I were you i wouldnt risk it and I would just overnight it. And if i saw someone in the bathroom shoving things into film canisters, im pretty sure id notify security, especially at an airport. :?


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Thanks for the responses.

Alfy, when you went through security and they inspected liquids, to what extent are we talking? If the tads were in non-transparent 3oz bottles, would they pass? Or are they opening every container to double check the liquids as you go through? 

Several things are retaining me from overnighting everything down. First and foremost, I'm a college student, and I don't have a huge income to where ~$50 is no biggie. I'm also going to be unemployed during the time that I'm down there, so any money that I do have is even more valuable to me than normal. Not to mention the fact that it's such a small collection, I'd be paying almost 25% of what I paid for all the animals just to move them, when it seems like so many people have gotten away with bringing them on planes. Also, with the mid-90's temps down in florida it seems almost if not more than as risky to overnight them down as it does to get through security with them. 

I'm not looking to argue any of the previous topics, just looking for help. As for the tads, I could go as far as strapping them to my inner-thigh area to get through the scanner, assuming it doesn't get set off by liquids (I don't see how it could though, considering the makeup of a human). I'm kind of hoping there's a better solution to that however, having things strapped to your body like that looks a lot worse than in your carryon bag. 

Again, I realize that if money wasn't an issue the correct way to go about everything is to overnight them to myself. But it is, so I'm just looking for the best way to go about this, not alternatives. Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

I would recommend doing some research on the penalties if you are caught. Then from there make your decision. To be quite honest...specially if you are tight on money...you may want to think long and hard about the big picture.

As for the frogs....I would consider fishing around on the board here and seeing if someone local can "frogsit" for you. 

Best of luck with whatever you do.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

well I am in a sticky situation.NWFF is on a Saturday so i cant ship Sat or sunday and I leave on Sunday... So I have to bring them with me or reaarange flights and school which will be a problem.

Is it best to put them in deli containers with moist sphagnum or will the moist sphagnum be clearly visible through the xray? ... help


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## nitsuj (Jan 21, 2007)

use ppr towels.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Sarasota, that's where I'm trying to get to. :?


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## Beau (May 12, 2007)

Any chance you or your father are military? If not, My suggestion would be to buy some of those cheap bathroom bottles from walmart and putting them in your checked baggage. They may or may not notice them. Either way, it gets scanned right in front of you and if they notice it and don't want you to bring it, you can take them right back out to whoever brings you to the airport or try putting them in a cargo pocket. I definately wouldn't suggest regular pockets or strapping them to your leg. Strapping them to your leg makes you seem like your actually trying to hide something rather than (plausible innocence) "What? I can't do that?". Also, ever seen a chocolate candy bar after a 2-3 hour stay in a front pocket? Can't be comfortable for the tads... 

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... items.shtm


Just show up early and have a backup plan. Have you called the service desk at TSA to ask? It doesn't really say anywhere at TSA that it's prohibited to carry frogs. But they will be doing the screening. If it come to the worst, Is it possible to take a bus or train?


EDIT: kept looking thru their webstite...

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/ ... _1036.shtm

Basically says, If it's ok with your airling TSA won't keep you from bringing your pets. I'm sure they check to make sure that It's legal with the takeoff and destination states and any states you may have to layover in. Worst that can happen is they'll say no. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Thank you beau, that was some very helpful research. Unfortunately I have no direct ties to the military. I think I'm just going to send the frogs right through the xray in my carryon, and just play dumb if they stop me, and assure them that my "tree frogs" are legal both here and in florida. I'll get some travel size toiletry bottles from walmart for the tads, and just send them through inconspicuously with other toiletries in a quart size ziplock, as they ask. As a last resort, I'll have my sister wait outside until I get through security, and if need be I'll bring them back out to her, and I can help direct her in overnighting them down to me.

Any other recommendations would be appreciated, otherwise I'll let you all know how it goes for future reference thursday night.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

I have carried frogs back from NWFF. I strongly recommend against preparation that make it look like you are trying to sneak them through. If a TSA agent finds twenty film containers hidden on your body I wouldn't be surprised if they thought you were carrying either drugs or something more sinister and possibly treat you accordingly.

When I carried them I had them in deli cups in a small canvas backpack - with nothing else in the backpack. They went through Xray with no questions asked and nothing "hidden".

That was before the days of restrictions on liquids. Why not make things easy on yourself and just UPS Overnight them back? Mail yourself the empty shipping container to your hotel and then send it out before you leave.

Sneaking anything restricted or prohibited onto an aircraft with obvious preparations to avoid detection could go badly for you.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

I wasn't honestly considering strapping film canisters to my body, just making a point I guess. I'm trying to stick to the "nothing hidden" concept, so I'm going to take apart the frog's temp container, put the frogs in deli cups, and send all of that through in my carryon. Then put the two tads in 3oz containers in a ziplock, as they ask. The liquids will all be according to code, and "hidden", but not really hidden. So if I do get questioned, I'll say I didn't know there was a problem bringing frogs or tads onto a plane, I just put the tads in 3 oz containers like I thought Iwas supposed to with liquids. I won't put them in like a cleaned out travel shampoo bottle or something, because that will look bad if I'm caught, I'll just put them in unlabeled travel containers. So at worst it looks like ignorance, yet still an attempt to follow TSA's restrictions. 

Sound okay?


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## Alfy111 (Aug 6, 2005)

Well just make sure that you put them in containers that arent see through and have some kind of labeling as to how much liquid is in them because they take your zip lock bag and go through all of the bottles to make sure they are 3 oz or under. My mom had a like 4 oz bottle of mascara in her carry on and they found it and made her throw it out! so just warning you.. I would empty some opaque shampoo bottles and put them in there. They will never find them in there and they arent going to ask you to open anything unless it is over 3 oz. Im thinking the whole thing is just a little too risky.. What I would do for the frogs is put them in containers with a LOT of leaves or cuttings of some kind of plant. This way if they take it out of your bag, unlikely, they just think its plants. Its not like you are going through customs so plants are allowed. And if they see a frog or two just be like oh man those must have been stuck on the plants from the greenhouse or soemthhing liek that. And worse comes to worse and you cant travel with them jsut give them to whoever to ship them. Only problem is if you leave you are going to have to go through security all over again, and because of the really thorough checks and a busy travel time to florida, its going to take a hell of a long time. So hmm i dont know, but not be worth the hassle..


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. My advice, fork out an extra few bucks and have them shipped. If you think shipping is expensive, think about the fine for "smuggling" illegal cargo onto a plane. Don't know, but it would probably cost more than just biting the bullet and shipping the frogs. Or as someone suggested earlier, have someone watch them for you. Or, if finances are that tight, then maybe you should consider selling them for extra money.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Frogs aren't "illegal cargo", it's not like I'm transporting drugs or crossing borders with them. They're not permitted by the airlines, but hardly illegal. People that go up to security with lighters, pocketknives, and 4oz liquids aren't arrested just because they're not allowed on the plane. I don't think TSA is going to have me arrested if I play dumb and say I didn't know any better, or even if I did know better, as long as it doesn't look like I'm "smuggling" them. I think the worst thing they'd do is tell me I can't bring them through, in which case I'd bring them back out to my sister, waiting in the car. It's not like I'm the first person to ever try this, with IAD and all the other big events people fly to. That's why I posted this, I was hoping I could get some help from people with experience, be it from people that know more about security procedures, or from people that have travelled with frogs before. And I haven't found any posts on people getting caught with frogs at security, so maybe it won't even be a big deal. My flight's at 3:30, and I plan on getting to the airport around 12, so I think even if I have a problem I'll be able to get back outside and get through security again without any issues on missing my flight.


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

If they're not allowed on the plane, how is that not illegal cargo? Anyway, sounds like you got your mind made up as to what you are gonna do, whether or not someone tries to talk some sense into you. All I'm saying is you need to weigh the risks and the penalties and ask yourself is it really worth it? Anyway, good luck. Hope you don't get caught.


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## nitsuj (Jan 21, 2007)

I haven't heard of any bad stories about taking frogs on a plane... Someone care to share?


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Hayden said:


> If they're not allowed on the plane, how is that not illegal cargo?


The same way lighters aren't illegal cargo. TSA's job is to check for firearms, bombs, and of course, "weapons of mass destruction". Bringing frogs on a plane isn't breaking any national laws, only airline policies. Which is why I don't see any penalties involved for trying.

Sorry if I'm coming off as a jerk, I'm not trying to, and I'm really not a jerk, just making a last minute effort to try and formulate the best plan of attack on this between now and thursday, and hoping some people with experience on here can help (what the forums are for, right?).


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Heres my problem as stated before NWFF is on a Saturday so I cant ship Sat or Sunday, So I have to carry them on.


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## Beau (May 12, 2007)

Kevin,
What did the airline say when you called them? The TSA website says that your pets are welcome. Did they decide frogs weren't pets or something? If they'll let you bring them, I don't know what all the fuss is about. Most of these security organizations just want you to follow their little protocol and they'll leave you alone. Just declare that you have em and it shouldn't be a big deal. Call ahead first and get a name/clerk # and something in writing just in case you have a gung ho ticket screener or something.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

I didn't call the airline, but I did check their website. Small dogs, cats, and birds are the only animals allowed as carryon (Really wish I could understand this better, I've been on a flight with a bird before, I'd rather have a crying baby sitting next to me than a bird at the other end of the plane). So that's no good. There are people that declare their frogs at security, people talked about it in the old post about flying with frogs. It doesn't make much sense to me, because then they could be put into a situation where they're forced to tell you that you can't have them. If you don't declare them, but also don't make it look like you're smuggling them, even if they say anything you can just play dumb. Maybe if needed I can plea with them and tell them they were very expensive, they're harmless, and I'm just trying to bring them home to my parent's house. Maybe even see what they say if I tell them my ride has already left for work. The situation seems a lot better going from MI to FL, rather than the opposite, seeing as there are a lot of illegal reptile/amphibian trades down there, and not so many places to buy crazy wildlife that could be illegal up here. I'm also thinking I'm gonna print out that page from TSA's website about "my pets being welcome", and say that once I saw that, I assumed my research was done.


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## brettlt (Oct 5, 2006)

Kevin,

I researched this a little bit myself, as I thought about doing it. The only reason that I didn't is that I worked for the airline, and could be fired for knowingly breaking policy.

I no longer work for them, and would say that I doubt you will have any problems. Most TSA do not care about animals. The airlines are the one prohibiting them, so it is just an airline rule, not a law.

Have a backup plan, but don't sweat it, just act dumb. TSA has more important things to watch for than tiny frogs.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Thanks brett, I really appreciate some assurance. After talking it through on this post for a few days now, I don't feel as worried about it as I did when the thought first came to mind. Hopefully I'll slide through security with no problems and continue the rest of my summer happily with my frogs on a much needed 6 week vacation. 8)


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## drbp (Apr 22, 2007)

Well, I don't know about the rest of you but I've got to keep following this thread...it's kind of like some kind of PDF-soap opera. Maybe there should be a poll or even a even a gambling pool. Will he smugle or won't he? Will he get cought and if so, what will they do??...Oh boy...I can't wait until Thursday.

Unfortunately, I think the sad truth is that he'll just walk through security and there won't be any drama...only time will tell.:?:


:shock:

ben

PS-don't forget to tell us what happens Kevin!


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Haha, I'm glad you're enjoying my emotional struggles. Hopefully it's a more g-rated soap opera, with a happily-ever-after ending. And for the comment about it being an unfortunate sad truth that I'll probably make it through fine, maybe I should make leave you wondering what really happens. Season one ends right as I'm walking up to security, you'll have to wait and watch reruns all summer long before you find out what happens in season two. Maybe I'll take the frogs out of my signature to lead you to believe the frogs never made it. Or is it just another one of hollywood's tricks to keep you tuned in?


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## Tim (Apr 22, 2007)

I flew about a month ago with 7 frogs in a soft sided cooler.
I just put the cooler on the tsa belt with my other bag,laptop,and shoes. The laptop got looked at the longest buy the xray. The frogs only got a quick scan then I was off.
The airlines don't look in your bags. All frogs are happy in there new homes.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

Sorry I took so long to get back, I've been pretty busy since I got here. However, everybody made it here with no problems, as expected. My bag full of frogs sat under the xray scanner for longer than any of my other things, which got my heart beating pretty fast, but nothing came of it. Tads have begun growing back legs since I got here, and the frogs are calling all day. My sister wasn't very happy when I left a FF culture in her car, and told her she would need it if I couldnt get through security with them. Luckily she didn't need it, because I'm not so sure she would've handled her responsibilities very well.


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## Tim (Apr 22, 2007)

Great to hear all went well  
looking forward to seeing you again at the next Mi froggers meet.


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## drbp (Apr 22, 2007)

That's great! Sort of what I figured but when you didn't post for an extra week...was starting to wonder if they flew you down to Guantanamo Bay for some extra special discussions with security.

Congrats. I guess I'll have to find some other post for a little extra drama in my life.

-ben
:wink:


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## Tim (Apr 22, 2007)

drdp what is the electron microscope pic in your avatar of?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Excellent news! (from our perspective at least )


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

That's good all went well . 

I guess the body cavity search will have to wait till season three ?


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## drbp (Apr 22, 2007)

Tim - the micrograph is of some sort of Hemiteran. I couldn't say what species exactly. But I am sure of one thing...my avitar is a scanning electron micrograph of Frog Food.

Kevin - I can't help but be a little curious about how you packaged your PDFs for travel in a carry-on bag. What kind of containers did you put them in and how were they packaged?


ben


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