# Sudden death of Powder blue Tinc



## Poloka (Jan 29, 2012)

We have 50 gallon vivarium that contained a proven sexed pair of powder blue tincs. Over the last couple of days, the two remained separated from each other voluntarily. They had normally been close by each other, occasionally courting. We recently cleared out some overgrown plants, but no major changes in their environment. Last night, I noticed the male on the floor of the vivarium in a very odd position. Fearing the worst, I misted some RO water on him to see if he was still alive. He was. He didn't move much and I had fed them flies - he let them go all over him with no reaction. His legs looked splayed out to the side, still tucked under him, but flat to the ground. I coerced him out of the back with a little more mist and he hopped to the center of the tank, where the female was close by. Suddenly, the female aggressively tackled him, and sat square on top of him. I don't think it was a mating position considering the aggression and position (I will try to attach a picture here). After that, I isolated him, but I feared the stress would do more damage. I opened his isolation container in the tank and let him stay there. He never got out of it and we found him dead this morning in the container, not far from where he was last night. We had these two for over a year and we don't know their age. Has anyone got an idea of what this could have been? Why the sudden aggression by the female? Could it have been mating (we have no eggs to show for it if it was)? Could this affect the female? Is it time to isolate her in case?


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

My two cents based on the info offered this is mostly a guess....It sounds like you did the right thing considering the 2 frogs had gotten along for a year prior & were technically in a large enough environment to avoid one another even if they were fighting(Im assuming of course that all of the frog's husbandry parameters were consistently met throughout its life & that nothing had changed of late w respect to Temp, Humididity & vitamin supplementing ?)...Also Ive had fighting like this many times between tincs & not only can the wrestling be courting, but sometimes once the hierarchy is established between females/same sex frogs it will subside & become a non issue in a good size enclosure.... in any event the death comes as rather extreme & perhaps an indication of something parasitic or even natural caused... So many Variables its impossible to diagnose the problem without all of the details....First, Has the pair been proven by you? Just want to rule out that they may have both been the same sex as I personally dont consider an animal proven unless I or a trusted breeder has witnessed eggs/calling in the 2 frog enclosure...Anything less then eggs & calling is probable at best... Apologies in advance if you have had breedings between the frogs & stated such in your thread as I must have missed it... As a general rule of thumb, as soon as you notice something weird with a dart, Quarantine it, Feed & supplement it generously, Keep it humid,watch closely, take it to a vet if its not getting noticeably better by the day..


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Your picture tells me what happened, stress to death. I have had several pairs over the years where 1 out of a pair will suddenly become aggressive and if not separated one will eventually die, it does not take long for them to have had enough.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

billschwinn said:


> Your picture tells me what happened, stress to death. I have had several pairs over the years where 1 out of a pair will suddenly become aggressive and if not separated one will eventually die, it does not take long for them to have had enough.


Bill, do you know why this happens?


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## Poloka (Jan 29, 2012)

They were not proven by us. We got eggs twice, there was courting (back petting) and calling, I don't think that proves they were male and female, though! My concern was a pathogen of some kind, bacterial or viral that could kill them both. There were many places for them to hide from each other, but perhaps it was the stress. It just all turned very suddenly, and they were our favorites. We have pumilios, auratus, vittatus, and azureus and have never seen them act like this, but perhaps these tincs are different. 

I appreciate the feedback! If anyone has more insight, it's much appreciated!


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Ahhh I see, Well don't beat yourself up about it… All you can do is provide the best husbandry you can…i.e: environment, nutrition, Temp/Humidity parameters… Even with everything perfect, once in a blue moon for whatever reason things will just happen outside of your control… IM sorry you lost a frog & I know the frustration of not knowing exactly why(this is what will eat at me for years with even losing 1 frog of 100, I always try to know why to prevent it from reoccurring, but there are just times its natural selection taking place)…If you run a closed system & don't introduce WC animals & havent really changed anything or brought in new frogs or swapped enclosures it is probably an isolated incident… Id only worry if another frog looks sick……Early detection of & Isolation from stress are really all you can do outside of getting an animal diagnosed/treated if need be..
Also, If you have had eggs & calling in the enclosure you had a male/female pair…I agree with everyone else, it seems stress just compromised the frogs immune system & it was too late at that point as the frog was too weak to rebound… Even pals of mine on here that have kept a lot of frogs for many many years have told me stories of the same kind of thing happening once in a while.. I hope all goes well with the rest of your collection & I wouldnt worry as long as it is just the 1 frog…. Keep us posted if anything else happens…


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

tincman: How do you run your tincs? pairs? Groups? Both? It seems people report mixed success with tinc groups varying from don't do it will kill your frogs to various groups together with all sorts of sex ratios without issues.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Bill, do you know why this happens?


In my experiences it appears the females just become insatiable, too much for the male to contend with, if he is removed in time he should recover.I would keep separate at least 30 days, when you reintroduce them make sure the cage looks different so there will not be any territory to defend. I have also had males be the agressor, though not as persistant.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Dendrobait said:


> tincman: How do you run your tincs? pairs? Groups? Both? It seems people report mixed success with tinc groups varying from don't do it will kill your frogs to various groups together with all sorts of sex ratios without issues.


I have Always kept my tincs in pairs, but I have also seen & heard what you have with respect to people housing them in groups… I was shocked when I first saw a bunch of tincs in a large enclosure at a friends home, but I trust him as an olds school educated HErp keeper & he knows what he's doing so I guess that works if the enclosure is large enough & you have plenty of hides & watchful eye.. For me since my collection has expanded I prefer the less is more approach & I tend to be conservative with housing… (It seems the less I have to worry about the better for me & the frogs..) Also Im still learning about frog behavior & really don't wanna think outside the box until I master the thinking within it...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

It is interesting though since the issue with pair fighting is not often brought up. Keeping tincs in pairs completely solves this issue apparently. 

I think fighting could potentially be more dangerous for a pair of animals. In a larger group the aggression may be more diffuse. I know cichlid keepers can put enough cichlids in a tank that they will tolerate each other because none can establish territories. I don't think I'd advise this for frogs(but if the tank was quite dry, provided no breeding sites, and the frogs were not fed to near obesity I bet they would behave as tincs in the wild do during dry season-no territories and presumably few conflicts since their are reports of frogs using the same retreat) I think in a large tank a frog who loses to another frog can retreat to a part of the tank where that frog does not go as much, and for it to follow it would have to trespass another rivals area.

The issue with groups would be watching multiple animal. Fighting may be easier to catch in early stages in a pair/trio.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Last year, I received 5 pairs of Bill's breeding tincs for frog sitting while he was in the hospital. These were pairs that had been together and breeding for years but had been separated for a bit before coming to my house. When I put them back into their breeding pairs and into tubs, it was like fight club at my house. So I separated everyone again and checked with Bill to make sure I had the right frogs paired up  . 

I soon moved them from tubs to real tanks and eventually they settled down. Except, every now and then, the male Patricia would do a ninja attack on the female Patricia (she was twice his size and hopped around with him on her back like she didn't even notice) and the giganto female Cobalt would flatten her male and rub his face in the dirt. These later skirmishes were over pretty quickly. 

I don't really have a point to make. Just sharing


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

My frogs are well trained in martial arts.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> I think fighting could potentially be more dangerous for a pair of animals. In a larger group the aggression may be more diffuse.


You are correct and IMO and the aggression is spread out over different frogs.



Dendrobait said:


> The issue with groups would be watching multiple animal. Fighting may be easier to catch in early stages in a pair/trio.


From my experiences, the aggressor isn't fighting with one particular frog and doesn't 'focus' on one individual. The aggressor will quickly change from frog to frog, which will diffuse the aggression and reduce stress to an individual frog.


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