# Charging for a used shipping box.



## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I understand some people have to buy boxes to ship in. I understand people have to buy heat or cold packs to ship with. 

But what i dont understand is why some people charge a $15 box charge for a used box.

Where do you draw the line at that? I know you need reimbursed for supplies and heat packs but when you have used the box repeatedly is it fair to still charge that?

Just curious.


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

This is where my passive aggressive nature comes into play. When things like this happen I just thank them for the shipment and never buy from them again. It is pretty chicken shit to charge for something that is used over and over and doesn't cost you anything.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

It may not be ethical but if it was stated up front that there was a box charge then I do not see an overall issue. It is possible that it is just a standard charge because typically they use new boxes and in this case they happened to have one on hand that was used. 

Also, it is a fairly good chance that they were charged $15 when they received the box and are passing along the charge to you.


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

I agree that it isn't ethical, but as long as everything gets to me in quality condition then I would buy from them again without a second thought.


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

There are too many ethical and honest sellers in this hobby to have to put up with people who are on the take. *I have had a breeder replace a frog that died 4 days after I received it with no questions asked, I will look at his stock first everytime now and buy from him if he has what I want. These are the people that should be rewarded with our repeat business. Just my opinion.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Dont take this post the wrong way. I personally dont have a problem paying a box charge ( i know they cost money as well as heat/ cold pack) but just wanted to know what happens when the whole reused box comes into play.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

All i use are reused boxes/styros from the university or a local vet office(thanks Gary). I never have charged for box or cool packs. Do you know how many are thrown out locally to you everyday? Also you don`t have to pay for a truckload of styro from somewhere else in the country. No one should be charging except the cost of gas and time to go out and find some locally.


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## blacksmith (Feb 24, 2009)

I've never charged anyone for a used shipping box. A new shipping box and a heat pack cost less than $10. So, for someone to charge more than that, unless its a huge box with multiple heat packs, is just another way for them to make money. I guess someone could see it as charging for their time to box it up and drop it off, but IMO that should be built into the price of your animals.


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

I don't really agree with charging box fees either unless you sell a large amount of frogs and it will cost you a large amount to stock shipping supplies.


The casual hobbyist probably shouldn't charge a box fee.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Paying/Charging $15 for a small cardboard box is outrageous...

Thus I would have to believe that "box charge" means more than just the cardboard box. It is probably a shortened term for "shipping and handling". And other shipping materials were still used. Time and expertise were still used.

Also how can we say on one hand "save the rainforest" then on the other hand complain because someone recycles paper products?


My compliments to the resourceful individual who ate up space in their home/hatchary store the used box in order to recyle...


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Toby_H said:


> Also how can we say on one hand "save the rainforest" then on the other hand complain because someone recycles paper products?
> 
> My compliments to the resourceful individual who ate up space in their home/hatchary store the used box in order to recyle...


Recycling is absolutely essential. Charging excessive fees to make a few bucks should be discouraged.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Toby_H said:


> Paying/Charging $15 for a small cardboard box is outrageous...
> 
> Thus I would have to believe that "box charge" means more than just the cardboard box. It is probably a shortened term for "shipping and handling". And other shipping materials were still used. Time and expertise were still used.
> 
> ...


 
I AM NOT complaining. Normally when a box charged is applied it is more than the "cardboard box" it is normally more along the lines of the styofoam coolers and heat/cold pack ( i think I may have said that twice already.

I was curious as to what people think of it. I do not buy boxes, nor do I charge a box fee when I ship. I recycle boxes from the pharmacy down the hall.

I know plenty of other people do this as well. That is where my question is going... reusing boxes yet charging for them again....or charging for boxes that did not cost a thing. 

Again I AM NOT complaining. Hell I have not bought anything in a long time to complain but what I am asking is what is other peoples opinion.


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## keith campbell (Aug 11, 2007)

I think that if a box fee is charged, a refund should be offered for the return of the box. I am starting to do this, it saves time, $ and reduces waste. I think $15 is a little steep, but size and materials used can also be a factor. On the other hand would $15 be okay if the box was was shiny and new? LOL I had to ask....

Keith


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Consider too, that when shipping in winter weather, like we're having now, extra insulation, PCMs, and the time to put it all together, can all add up pretty quickly.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

I hate box fees! That should be part of the frog sale or something to be taken into account when selling frogs. Like others I get most of mine free from doctors offices. They just call me when they have one come in and I pick it up when I am out. 
J


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I understand that. I understand that extra insulation cost more, but is also reusable. 

I have recieved frogs one that used that PCM once. It was promptly shipped back two days later, minus the frogs. I have no problem shipping materials back. 

Shiny and new - $15 is still a bit much  but better than reused and $15.

I personally would prefer to reuse boxes. Heat packs no. Cold packs yes. I just absorb the cost of the heat packs that I have to buy. I just consider it part of the hobby. 

Once again I am not complaining just looking for some opinions and discussion.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

After reading through all the post I really do not think that it matters unless the reused box is so falling apart that it has some ill effect on the frogs. Most of the time the shipping charges are $50+ and I send many live fish through UPS and rarely does shipping come to over $30-$35 for O/N delivery. So it appears that most places have already included this "box charge" into their shipping cost already and the hang up on this praticular transaction is that instead of this seller including it in the "shipping" charges he listed it as a "box fee."


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

I agree. I always just assume people inflate the shipping cost to include box and supplies without actually stating it during the sale.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> After reading through all the post I really do not think that it matters unless the reused box is so falling apart that it has some ill effect on the frogs. Most of the time the shipping charges are $50+ and I send many live fish through UPS and rarely does shipping come to over $30-$35 for O/N delivery. So it appears that most places have already included this "box charge" into their shipping cost already and the hang up on this praticular transaction is that instead of this seller including it in the "shipping" charges he listed it as a "box fee."


 
Which particular transaction are you talking about?

I am talking in general.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Jellyman said:


> After reading through all the post I really do not think that it matters unless the reused box is so falling apart that it has some ill effect on the frogs. Most of the time the shipping charges are $50+ and I send many live fish through UPS and rarely does shipping come to over $30-$35 for O/N delivery. So it appears that most places have already included this "box charge" into their shipping cost already and the hang up on this praticular transaction is that instead of this seller including it in the "shipping" charges he listed it as a "box fee."


In my case this is not true at all. I sent out 3 packages last week of which I charged a $55 flat rate for shipping. The SC box cost me $55 just to ship and the 2 CA boxes were $65 each. So in many cases I lose money on the shipping. I am not saying that others dont try to profit ffrom the shipping or add the box in with it but I dont. Sometimes the shipping is justified if you know how much it is going to weigh and how big the box will be.
J


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

porkchop48 said:


> Which particular transaction are you talking about?
> 
> I am talking in general.


In general I do not think it really matters unless the box charge is added to the bill and you were not aware of it.

I do not think you are complaining at all. I think you asked a good question.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Jason DeSantis said:


> In my case this is not true at all. I sent out 3 packages last week of which I charged a $55 flat rate for shipping. The SC box cost me $55 just to ship and the 2 CA boxes were $65 each. So in many cases I lose money on the shipping. I am not saying that others dont try to profit ffrom the shipping or add the box in with it but I dont. Sometimes the shipping is justified if you know how much it is going to weigh and how big the box will be.
> J


Who knows, maybe shipping from KS is cheaper?? I typically send out boxes that are 10"x10"x10" and weigh between 3-4 lbs. I know if you go over their standard shipping sizes the price jumps up alot.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

So who are we talking about then...

Frogger A, who charges $15 after he just reuses a box, insulation, and PCMs he got for free?
Frogger B, who charges $15 after she uses all new stuff she purchased new?

A's a D'Head
B's a good business person. 

Eric 



porkchop48 said:


> I understand that. I understand that extra insulation cost more, but is also reusable.
> 
> I have recieved frogs one that used that PCM once. It was promptly shipped back two days later, minus the frogs. I have no problem shipping materials back.
> 
> ...


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

pl259 said:


> So who are we talking about then...
> 
> Frogger A, who charges $15 after he just reuses a box, insulation, and PCMs he got for free?
> Frogger B, who charges $15 after she uses all new stuff she purchased new?
> ...


Well put. Frogger B charges the actual cost of shipping materials and not using free or used stuff and charging $15. Frogger B is ethical and honest.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Basically the person buying from B, is also buying shipping materials they can reuse. All is happy and balanced. This time of year, it's not the cost of the cardboard box that drives things.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

pl259 said:


> So who are we talking about then...
> 
> Frogger A, who charges $15 after he just reuses a box, insulation, and PCMs he got for free?
> Frogger B, who charges $15 after she uses all new stuff she purchased new?
> ...


I agree with this.

Not that i dont agree with reusing stuff. I do all the time. But dont over charge for stuff that is reused and you did not pay for.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

porkchop48 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> Not that i dont agree with reusing stuff. I do all the time. But dont over charge for stuff that is reused and you did not pay for.


Is it not possible that we are overlooking the possibility that they did not get the box used for free. It is very possible that they purchased frogs(or some other perishable) last week and paid a $15 box charge and now that they are reusing the box they are passing along that charge to you? There would not be anything unethical about that scenario.

There are two sides to every situation.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

jellyman, 

This is not a personal thing at all. Has nothing to do with me. if I happen to buy frogs and get charged a box/ packing fee that is fine. If it shows up in a used boxed yes I am going to ask why. 

Ok so how many times does a box need paid for? 


I always have boxes stacked up in my office ( the cooler ones from Dr and pharmacies) I am always more than willing to send them off to any one who needs them.


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## WVFROGGER23 (Jan 5, 2010)

Marked up shipping costs are just a way to add a little "extra money" to the transaction. Used to happen on ebay all the time until they started regulating shipping charges. If all new materials are used I don't mind paying a charge at all, but I think paying $15.00 for a small cardboard box and some pieces of styrofoam is rediculous reguardless of "new" or not. Now if extra measures are taken such as thermal insulation wrap, multiple heat packs/cool packs in a larger box I can certainly understand that. For the most part, I have always got my money's worth when it comes to shipping though. I only deal with one or two breeders though. If shipping costs are low, people like myself are more likely to place multiple orders time after time rather than saving up for one big order and possibly changing their mind in the process. Keeping costs reasonable is just good business. If costs are cheap and the product is good, we are all usually victims to the impulse buy syndrome.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

This thread has been a bit eye opening for me as I never really thought about how a box charge is viewed by some. I have been charging box charges (for reptiles...$10) for a while. It started when I realized I was losing more than that on shipping on every purchase. 

It would go like this: Someone would express interest in a snake and ask for a quote. I would quote them the cost of shipping (no additional charges)...for example "$80". I would get a reply that that was too much, and that they had a breeder send something for half that. Now I know darn well that if that is true, the other seller is SMASHING this animal into a tiny box and using 1/4 inch insulation, which is pretty sketchy when you add a heat pack. Sort of a "heat and leak" approach...a bit wreckless. So I started raising the price of the animal to cover the cost of decent shipping, but then I stop getting calls altogether because I'm no longer competitive. 

So I started adding a box fee to recoup some of the shipping loss. Usually its a new box, but sometimes I have used old ones if they were nice. I've never had a DOA and it's rare that I have sent something and not had the buyer comment on how well it was packed.

Is that misrepresentation? Am I a D'Head? I never really thought about it like that, but I hope not. Either way, a nice insulated box, used or new, does have value. I assume in most cases it will be reused, so in that case it's not just packing...I'm selling the box.

I'm not sure now after reading this thread, but that is the way I have always looked at it.

Jeremy


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

porkchop48 said:


> This is not a personal thing at all. Has nothing to do with me.


I know. We are speaking in general terms of the use of previously used shipping boxes.

A. shipper uses a brand new shiny box and charges $10-$15 - This is OK

B. shipper gets a slightly used box for free and charger $10-$15 - This not OK

C. Shipper gets a slightly used box for free and charges nothing or a small fee for their time and gas money to pick up the free boxes - This is OK

D. Shipper reuses a slightly used box in which he initially incurred a $10-$15 box fee and passes that box fee along to the purchaser for $10-$15 - This is OK

Thoughts?


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

i rarly ship , but if i do i never charged for it.
costs 
10 bucks gas to get to airport {only decent way to ship in canada}
1 hrs time minimum.
box and heat packs or gel roughly 5 bucks.
2 bucks parking 
timmys coffee 1.75 {wont leave house with out one}
to me i see the boxing or what should be called shipping charge as a reasonable charge, every time i ship i lose money compared to easy local only sales.but if u are just paying for a box , then it should be new.
craig


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

I guess for me it is consistency. My breeder sends my animals in shiny new boxes with great insulation and the animals are in great shape. Whatever he quoted me for shipping, i agreed to pay that. If the next time I am charged the same and get a crappy banged up box with old shipping information on it and poor packing, we have a problem. I have received plants from a vendor in a smashed up old box and had to pay a premium for shipping, I shop elsewhere now. I feel that the care taken to package and ship my purchase directly reflects the care that was taken in raising and caring for the animals I am buying. I don't know if I am making sense or not?


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

I think it is also important to remember the cost of PCM and the likes. What is $4 at a vendors online store becomes $5 or more after shipping. Why should people loose money at the expense of a thankless stranger. I understand it is good for business but most of us aren't a business, we are individual hobbyists that value our time, energy, and effort.

Also, is $15 too much for an insulated box with PCM, that in sent inside another insulated box with a heat pack? Box fees are not uncommon for people that give accurate shipping quotes, nor should they be. I wouldn't want a fellow hobbyist loosing money for me, that's why I often try to cover PP fees, especially with larger purchases.


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

pl259 said:


> So who are we talking about then...
> 
> Frogger A, who charges $15 after he just reuses a box, insulation, and PCMs he got for free?
> Frogger B, who charges $15 after she uses all new stuff she purchased new?
> ...


I tend to disagree...

Frogger A put time and effort into locating, collecting and storing the containers and did something good for the environment, efforts worth rewarding...

Frogger B took the easy way out, and charged the customer for his lack of efforts...

Either way, the customer got the same result... So why is the recycler a D'head? And the lazy guy is respected?


In the end if the box fee / shipping and handling is openly priced before the sale is complete and the animal is properly shipped, then the buyer got what they paid for.

at least that is my opinion on the matter...


PS - I breed fish but choose not to ship them because I feel people have to high of demands on shipping with not enough willingness to compensate. I'm not willing to loose money on shipping a package when I could sell it locally.

For those of you willing to loose money on shipping that's really cool of you to do someone else that favor. But I don't think we should expect other's to do favors every time they send a shipment...

My hobby is keeping and breeding a couple of animals I enjoy keepign and breeding. The sales, packaging and shipping is work to me.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

WVFROGGER23 said:


> Keeping costs reasonable is just good business. If costs are cheap and the product is good, we are all usually victims to the impulse buy syndrome.


The problem is shipping costs took a huge jump (following fuel costs) and buyers weren't excited about absorbing it.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

I ship out quite a few boxs over the course of the year , and never charge box fees. I just take it as overhead. Granted I got my supplies in bulk at decent prices. But If I had to pay $15 retail for a new shipping box I might be inclined to charge lets say $5 ,maybe.

Reusing boxs as long as they are still in good condition is awesome. Part of the three R's - Reduce Reuse Recycle

Another thing to consider is some people are in this hobby for profit. And alot of people make a profit on shipping. There are a few distributors out there that make more money on shipping then the animals that they send out. 

Times are tuff and people ask for deals all the time.And if you get a deal on the animals they might charge more for box fees to recoop some of the money.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With respect to some fish hobbyists, there is a box charge but this is then refunded if the person who got the animals returns the box in good condition. This is to encourage maximal use of the box before it gets too damaged (and prevents having to continually purchase good boxes). Personally I like this idea, particularly if more people start using the reusable phase change packs to control temperature as it reduces the rate of materials going into the land fill. 

In the past, a box charge was usually folded into the price of the animals, as demand lessens some sellers stop folding in the price of the box to the cost of the animal to lower the price in an attempt to offer a more competitive price with an attempt to recover the costs on in a different manner. It is up to the buyer to decide if the cost of the animal is worth it to them. 

Ed


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I like this idea Ed. 

I would happily spend the few bucks to mail the box back if the person I bought frogs from wanted me too. The box gets used again and I dont have to cram yet another box into the basement or office.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

> Frogger A, who charges $15 after he just reuses a box, insulation, and PCMs he got for free?
> Frogger B, who charges $15 after she uses all new stuff she purchased new?


Frogger A probably BOUGHT his stuff from Frogger B - So it's most often NOT free...

Having said that - I'm the idiot who charges a $7.00 flat rate _packed & shipped_ for almost anything.  (obviously not live animals) Most of our boxes really ARE free to me when we get stuff in @ the wholesale shop. As many of my customers have seen - we use LOTS of boxes marked "Import: Columbia/Ecuador/Peru/Holland"  I personally couldn't charge for a used box in good conscience. I'm also sure my customers would rather receive a used FREE box than an expensive NEW box when shipping things that aren't extremely perishable. 

In all honesty - shipping live animals gets *expensive* - I'm glad that I don't have to deal with it often. (The frogs on our site are all bred, sold, and shipped by Andy @ Brooklyn Darts) Think about it... Boxes + high quality heat packs + styrofoam casings + packing products (tape, packing paper, "Fragile" labels, etc). The point is: NO PROFIT should be made with box/shipping fees - but there's no reason to no LOSE money on it. That's really the point that should not be crossed as far as I'm concerned. 

On the other hand I've seen people charge packing fees when they are shipping *SUPPLIES* which is absolutely ridiculous.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Most places I order fish from have free O/N shipping once you hit a certain dollar amount. This could range from as low as $100 up to $500. This is really just an example of a merchant whom has rolled in the shipping and box charge into the cost of the animal but it looks nice to save $50 or more dollars with free shipping. And out of the 100+ orders of fish I've made over the past 10+ years I have never had one merchant or wholesaler request or offer to have the boxes sent back for a refund?? Would have been nice though. I just used the boxes when mailing out fish to my customers. They were "free" to me so I never thought about taking on a box charge but I did factor into shipping my time, heat/cool packs, plastic bags, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I haven't seen a "store front" offer the return of the box fee item, its always been hobbyists.. I've mainly seen it in the old JAKA advertisements.

Ed


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Ed said:


> I haven't seen a "store front" offer the return of the box fee item, its always been hobbyists.. I've mainly seen it in the old JAKA advertisements.
> 
> Ed


My purchases are typically rather large, $500 and up and not through hobbiest, so that makes sense. I typically will get 5-10 large styros at a time. Would be nice to get a $10 credit on each one.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

I charge a box fee while reusing boxes. However, as it's been said, it really isn't for the box.

Last shipment, I used *2* PCM packs and a heat pack. That's $8 in materials. Plus the individual containers I used, $6 worth of containers (that's my preference to use the Ziploc containers, as they are more rigid than 2oz portion cups). So I put out $14, and charged $10. I still "lost" money on that deal. Had I bought a "reptile shipping pack" from one of the retailers here, it would have been $3.50 more. $17.50 total. Or, from ship your reptiles, I could have gotten a kit for $20. Losses keep building, the "nicer" the packaging gets.

But I didn't lose. My customer, despite getting a used box with other information scribbled out with black magic marker, and used insulation, got their animals. a couple of the tads didn't make it, but shipping tads is risky business and the froglet arrived in good shape as well as the other 6 tads. The tads I've shipped before arrived alive and healthy, so this was my first loss. I'm in communication with my customer to get more details to refine the process, and gave him a refund in the form in which he ask for it (he preferred credit for future purchases, so I'm guessing he wasn't that unhappy with my methods.)

I can't see building a box fee into each animal. If I charged $5 per animal extra, and someone ordered 10 frogs, that's a $50 box fee. 

Also, I understand the marketing point of telling the customer exactly what the box fee is, and exactly what the shipping is, rather than just "shipping and handling". When I was first starting out, If I was told it would be $50 to ship to me via Fedex overnight, and I went online and calculated shipping myself and it was $40, it wouldn't occur to me that the seller was including heat packs, etc, I'd just feel like they were trying to make a profit on shipping, too.

Not to mention the fact that a seller maintains a website (perhaps), takes care of their animals properly, makes the ff cultures, stores boxes (new or used, if you were paying for a storefront or storage unit, they take up space that you pay for by the square foot), stores the packing materials, etc. etc. etc....

Yes. I might "make" a few dollars here and there. But I think I'd be hard pressed to even buy a cup of coffee with my "earnings". Small private breeders, or even large scale Breeders, aren't driving BMWs and taking their Yachts to exotic locales on the $10 box fee they charge for a used box with new PCMs and Heat Packs. I can't speak for everyone, but I love the animals, love watching all their behaviors, including the calls and courting, and am willing to share my progeny with others. Others charged me for my animals, I think I should get a little for my time and love and effort, too.

I know times are tight, but they're tight for EVERYONE. If you're new to this, please don't begrudge the sellers for reusing boxes, charging box fees, etc. We're struggling, too.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

paulrust said:


> Well put. Frogger B charges the actual cost of shipping materials and not using free or used stuff and charging $15. Frogger B is ethical and honest.


Sure...
Once you start shipping lots of frogs, will you let me know how easy it is to come up with free, no comprimise insulated boxes and pcms of the proper temp rating?

Clinic givaway boxes are a lot of times too small, too large, or too thin of insulation for my tastes.
I like to re-use my shipping supplies (because they are thouroughly tested, by me and I know they work) and usually offer a rebate and return shipping slips that charge to my account...even so, you would be surprized how many people are too lazy (or "unethical" if you will) to ship the box back. 

The typical frog shipping box (with pcm) costs me about $25...

Sorry...alot of the comments I've read here have rubbed me the wrong way, and I hadn't even read all the way through yet...or finished my coffee


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Brian - Drink your coffee 

I think every one is entitled to their opinion on this one. Alot of the boxes I get from the pharmacy are kinda small but when shipping only a few frogs they work for me. 

I have two perfect size ones sitting next to me with about 3 inch thick styro foam and still penty of room insides. i think I even did the happy dance when I found that one  

I can honestly say I dont use the PCM so i dont even know their cost. I think when I got frogs from you that is what you used. I was more than happy to send it back knowing that it is reuseable. 

i think if hobbiest would be just a little more considerate and say "hey do you want me to send the box back" or "hey I got this box for free so just pay for the heat pack/ cold pack ". It is the simple gestures that go along ways.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

porkchop48 said:


> Brian - Drink your coffee
> 
> I think every one is entitled to their opinion on this one. Alot of the boxes I get from the pharmacy are kinda small but when shipping only a few frogs they work for me.
> 
> ...


Sure...
I'd also like to point out that I'm picky about my boxes for another reason:
The person that pays for the shipping pays a little (sometimes a lot) more (in actual shipping cost) for every inch of box.
For example, a 9x9x10 box costs around $65 to ship to most places from here...go up to 10x10x12 and the cost goes up to $75. So that box that is a little larger than necessary, even when the buyer is not charged for the box...is paying for it anyways. Alot of times, cost of shipping can make or break a sale...

It's been a goal on the back burner for a while (this thread is making me want to get it rolling) for me to try and get a reliable packaging system in order that costs something comparable to the cost it takes to get it shipped back...even though it seems more green to reuse the products, it takes fuel to ship it back...and I think most froggers would hold onto the packing for their own use later on anyways...
Just some thoughts.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Dancing frogs said:


> Sure...
> I'd also like to point out that I'm picky about my boxes for another reason:
> The person that pays for the shipping pays a little (sometimes a lot) more (in actual shipping cost) for every inch of box.
> For example, a 9x9x10 box costs around $65 to ship to most places from here...go up to 10x10x12 and the cost goes up to $75.
> ...


Very good points, Brian. Froglets weigh next to NOTHING on their own, without insulation, pcm and heat packs, and stabilization packing materials, shipping could be nominal!

And I love the point about the use of fuel to ship it back. Not only the jet fuel, the truck fuel, but the fuel of the driver to get to work, the dock workers to load it getting to work, the supervisor to show up, the heating and cooling of the offices... etc. I knwo they're going to work anyway, but the more people start shipping boxes back, the more people and jets and trucks they need. We often forget how many resources ACTUALLY go into something. 

Perhaps to be more green, we should reward or offer a discount to those who WANT us to use used (but structurally sound) boxes????


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I save all my nice styro box's and cold packs. I also have a stock of 48hour heat packs....I have yet to of shipped anything but if I do I am prepared and would not charge for it. Its part of the shipping process. Heat and cold packs are about the only thing I could see being charged extra for. I think I paid $1.50 each for my heat packs so If I had to use two or more $5 sounds fair to me. Box's are everywhere and should be free or atleast part of the all ready rediculous shipping cost.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

D3monic said:


> I save all my nice styro box's and cold packs. I also have a stock of 48hour heat packs....I have yet to of shipped anything but if I do I am prepared and would not charge for it. Its part of the shipping process. Heat and cold packs are about the only thing I could see being charged extra for. I think I paid $1.50 each for my heat packs so If I had to use two or more $5 sounds fair to me. Box's are everywhere and should be free or atleast part of the all ready rediculous shipping cost.


Even if you never ship, those products could come in handy in the case of a power outage...


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Dancing frogs said:


> Sure...
> Once you start shipping lots of frogs, will you let me know how easy it is to come up with free, no comprimise insulated boxes and pcms of the proper temp rating?
> 
> Clinic givaway boxes are a lot of times too small, too large, or too thin of insulation for my tastes.
> ...



Maybe you are missing my point. I don't care if you ship 1 or 500 frogs. If you pay $50.00 for shipping materials than charge $50.00 for the materials. If you paid nothing don't gouge the buyer $50.00 when you don't have to. It's about respecting each other. Of course I know some people will steal from their own mother and that is just life, i simply won't do business with them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mtolypetsupply said:


> And I love the point about the use of fuel to ship it back. Not only the jet fuel, the truck fuel, but the fuel of the driver to get to work, the dock workers to load it getting to work, the supervisor to show up, the heating and cooling of the offices... etc. I knwo they're going to work anyway, but the more people start shipping boxes back, the more people and jets and trucks they need. We often forget how many resources ACTUALLY go into something.


If the box is empty it can be shipped basic mail... the mail is going to be delivered to your house/company regardless... so the impact on the fuel usage isn't as great. If we are comparing fuel costs (carbon outputs) versus shipping it back then we need to look at the carbon outputs ranging from the use of petroleum to make the styrofoam, to the loss of carbon sequestering from cutting down trees to make cardboard, the energy used in manufacturing and delivering the packing materials. .. When compared to all of those costs, shipping the empty package back is a much less use of energy... 

Ed


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Don't forget that people's time has value. No one is getting rich selling frogs I can tell you that. My day job pays for a lot of shipping.

What it boils down to is are you happy with the end product. If you are and believe what you paid IN TOTAL was worth it for the safe arrival of your healthy frog then the details of how or why a vendor arrived at this price are irrelevant.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Wow...this thread is getting some serious air time !

A lot of this hasn't been covered lately if at all.

Good informative thread. I'm rating it 5 stars....


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

UmbraSprite said:


> What it boils down to is are you happy with the end product. If you are and believe what you paid IN TOTAL was worth it for the safe arrival of your healthy frog then the details of how or why a vendor arrived at this price are irrelevant.



In this context the question you are posing is what is it worth to have a frog arrive safely. The P.C. answer is...I would pay any amount!!! The fact is that a frog of any species costs pretty close to the same no matter where you buy it. The difference is in the S+H charges. I don't breed or sell frogs, I collect them for my own pleasure. I spend over $1000.00 a month on this passion. That does not mean I deserve to be ripped off on inflated shipping. It doesn't take a lot of searching to decide who I want to spend my money with. All I am saying is be fair and don't take advantage of people.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

UmbraSprite said:


> Don't forget that people's time has value. No one is getting rich selling frogs I can tell you that. My day job pays for a lot of shipping.
> 
> What it boils down to is are you happy with the end product. If you are and believe what you paid IN TOTAL was worth it for the safe arrival of your healthy frog then the details of how or why a vendor arrived at this price are irrelevant.


Well said.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

I agree that my time has value as well. I just dont personally charge a box and shipping charge. 

I just got don't shipping out 3 fruit fly cultures in a 2 inch thick walled sytrofoam box. So the box was much bigger than say shipping in the summer but being that i get them free and clear I had no desire to ask him for money for the box. 

Some people have completely different views on this who box charge thing. 

I dont feel I need to make any money on shipping. None. If I quote a price and it is less than I refund the money. I dont have a problem doing that. If it is more I eat the cost. 

I do believe that what ever the price for the frog to arrive safely is worth it. But dont go over board.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

paulrust said:


> Maybe you are missing my point. I don't care if you ship 1 or 500 frogs. If you pay $50.00 for shipping materials than charge $50.00 for the materials. If you paid nothing don't gouge the buyer $50.00 when you don't have to. It's about respecting each other. Of course I know some people will steal from their own mother and that is just life, i simply won't do business with them.


I'm totally with you on the "don't gouge the buyer" tip. No one wants to see the Ebay shipping mentality creep into the hobby, but I don't think your point really works when applied to the real world. 

Look at it this way. Most shippers will reuse a box if possible and buy one when they have to. So depending on if I'm able to recycle the box/styrofoam/heat pack/cold pack/PCM (or any combination thereof) the package could cost between $0-$20. Also, keep in mind I pack differently depending on the weather. It's just not realistic at the time of sale to tally up what you have on hand, at that time, and charge everybody a different box fee according to what you will be using on that particular shipment. Most of us average it out, then to stay competitive, cut it a little lower. That's why I have charge $10 currently. 

Also, as I have stated before, a nice insulated box (and especially PCM) has value. Just because someone drives around to all the pharmacy's in town instead of ordering them on the internet doesn't change that. The time it takes to do that is worth money as well. I can honestly say I do not make money on shipping, quite the opposite. I used to just eat the loss, but after many sales that really ads up. It's also very dependent on how many animals are being shipped. I usually won't even bring up a box fee on a $500 purchase...but on a $50 purchase, it represents a pretty big percentage loss. If I counted up all the money I have lost on shipping and spent on packing, it would come no where near compensating for the $10 box fee I currently charge.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

paulrust said:


> In this context the question you are posing is what is it worth to have a frog arrive safely. The P.C. answer is...I would pay any amount!!! The fact is that a frog of any species costs pretty close to the same no matter where you buy it. The difference is in the S+H charges. I don't breed or sell frogs, I collect them for my own pleasure. I spend over $1000.00 a month on this passion. That does not mean I deserve to be ripped off on inflated shipping. It doesn't take a lot of searching to decide who I want to spend my money with. All I am saying is be fair and don't take advantage of people.


I understand your point of view entirely, and my previous post was getting at that I kind of figured you didn't breed or sell frogs (nothing wrong with that at all though) and therefore, might not understand or appreciate how much people who do breed and ship frogs go through, or spend, whether it's time or $...and we all know that time is as good as money in the free world.
I always try to put myself in the other person's shoes before I judge...

And I couldn't aggree with you more on the value of being fair and not taking advantage of people. Treat people the way you would want to be treated is the way I live my life...
With that...I think I'm done here


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

My opinion:

1. Shipping fees should be exact based on weight - no mark up there. 

2. Boxes should def be reused. I am very happy when I recieve a used box and I'm overjoyed when it's in good shape and sturdy, to be able to be used again.

3. Box fees should be expected. Heat or cool packs and even flim cans and deli cups can be considered expenses. Can a "New" box even be more expensive than a used box. Sure.

Bottom line....we are all smart people here and this hobby has a small but vocal community. If you juice people with extra charges and deliver a weakly packaged shipping container - all the while charging big money, you should soon find yourself outa biznazz.

Pretty simple. One bad deal is enough to cause a hobbyist to not only never buy again, but most likely it will cause 3-4 other people to not buy.

Ever hear the saying, "he tells one friend and they tell one friend...."


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> My opinion:
> 
> 1. Shipping fees should be exact based on weight - no mark up there.


Correction...Shipping fees should be the exact cost.
Most frog shipments, due to thick foam (ideally) being used are charged by dimensional weight...I.E.: you pay to ship 4lbs even though the package weighs 3, due to the size of the package.


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> I'm totally with you on the "don't gouge the buyer" tip. No one wants to see the Ebay shipping mentality creep into the hobby, but I don't think your point really works when applied to the real world.
> 
> Look at it this way. Most shippers will reuse a box if possible and buy one when they have to. So depending on if I'm able to recycle the box/styrofoam/heat pack/cold pack/PCM (or any combination thereof) the package could cost between $0-$20. Also, keep in mind I pack differently depending on the weather. It's just not realistic at the time of sale to tally up what you have on hand, at that time, and charge everybody a different box fee according to what you will be using on that particular shipment. Most of us average it out, then to stay competitive, cut it a little lower. That's why I have charge $10 currently.
> 
> Also, as I have stated before, a nice insulated box (and especially PCM) has value. Just because someone drives around to all the pharmacy's in town instead of ordering them on the internet doesn't change that. The time it takes to do that is worth money as well. I can honestly say I do not make money on shipping, quite the opposite. I used to just eat the loss, but after many sales that really ads up. If I counted up all the money I have lost on shipping and spent on packing, it would come no where near compensating for the $10 box fee I currently charge.



I completely understand your point and I don't want shippers to lose money on shipping. I think there is a happy medium as you elude to. It is tough for everyone as has been stated. Whether I want to pay a little more or you want to charge a little less, we need to take care of each other. Especially here where we can communicate our frustrations and hopefully solve some of this.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dancing frogs said:


> Correction...Shipping fees should be the exact cost.
> Most frog shipments, due to thick foam (ideally) being used are charged by dimensional weight...I.E.: you pay to ship 4lbs even though the package weighs 3, due to the size of the package.


 
so noted


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> I'm totally with you on the "don't gouge the buyer" tip. No one wants to see the Ebay shipping mentality creep into the hobby, but I don't think your point really works when applied to the real world.
> 
> Look at it this way. Most shippers will reuse a box if possible and buy one when they have to. So depending on if I'm able to recycle the box/styrofoam/heat pack/cold pack/PCM (or any combination thereof) the package could cost between $0-$20. Also, keep in mind I pack differently depending on the weather. It's just not realistic at the time of sale to tally up what you have on hand, at that time, and charge everybody a different box fee according to what you will be using on that particular shipment. Most of us average it out, then to stay competitive, cut it a little lower. That's why I have charge $10 currently.
> 
> Also, as I have stated before, a nice insulated box (and especially PCM) has value. Just because someone drives around to all the pharmacy's in town instead of ordering them on the internet doesn't change that. The time it takes to do that is worth money as well. I can honestly say I do not make money on shipping, quite the opposite. I used to just eat the loss, but after many sales that really ads up. It's also very dependent on how many animals are being shipped. I usually won't even bring up a box fee on a $500 purchase...but on a $50 purchase, it represents a pretty big percentage loss. If I counted up all the money I have lost on shipping and spent on packing, it would come no where near compensating for the $10 box fee I currently charge.


 
Maybe this is why I am irritated I dont even have to drive around to the pharmacies I just pick them up as I walk down the hall.


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> My opinion:
> 
> 
> Bottom line....we are all smart people here and this hobby has a small but vocal community. If you juice people with extra charges and deliver a weakly packaged shipping container - all the while charging big money, you should soon find yourself outa biznazz.
> ...


This is all I was trying to say. Thanks Phil


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

I am really liking this thread and would like to put foorth my 2 cents if I may.

First off I am not in the "frog buisness" I like probably 99% of us have a day job that pays for everything in life except frogs and we use the money from what we sell to by more frogs. But I am a buisness man during the day so let me lay this out if i may from a Buisness prospective.

Boxes: Yep they are recycled so I would not charge for that 

Coolers: Well I like many of you get those from my local vets office so the cooler itself is free too. However, Gas to get to the vets office does cost (so lets say $2.00 divided by number of coolers 40 cents) Time it takes to drive there and back time is money after all (so lets say $10 divded by the number of coolers I get when I am there, for sake of argument lets say $2.00) I get 5 on average each week.

Heat packs: (1.00 each, most use 2 so theres 2.00)

Phase 22: (3.95 for the phase 22 packs )

Newspaper: Use that to hold everything tight for minimal movement, yep recycled so its free

Packing time: to do it right lets for the sake of arguement say 10 minutes (1.29)

time to post office/ups/fedex whichever we choose 15 minutes there and 15 minutes in line (on a good day, 3.87)

so the grand total is: 11.51 and I was using minimum wage

So that being said, is it unreasonable for people to charge for all of that?

I dont charge a box fee myself but I have another job, if this was a buisness and my only one I think I should be able to recoup at least my expenses.

so, what do you all think?

Thanks


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Malaki33 said:


> so, what do you all think?


Completely agree. I would be happy to pay for your actual expenses.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

I think everyone is essentially agreeing on one thing:

Don't profit on shipping fees, boxing fees, or packing fees.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

See I have a totally different take on things. When I ship frogs I will re-use boxes if I have them. If not I have a stack of new ones that I can use if need be. With the typical winter shipping box I usually do 2 heat packs, 1 PCM and 1 cold pack. Those along with a new box cost me around $10. Now if you take into account the time it takes me to catch the frog, pack the box, print the label, drop off the box and come home its about 2 hours. So with some peoples thinking is I should be cherging about $30 for a box charge. I am just not willing to do that. I drop my frogs off at fedex just because I save the frogs 3 hours of being in the cold. Anyway to sum it up, I charge no additional fees because I feel when sending frogs I should take the very best care of them I can. The person who bought the frogs is counting on me to do the right thing and get the frogs to them healthy and alive. I just assume I should get that in return when recieving frogs, which is not always the case. I treat it as kind of a pay it forward method.
J


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Jason DeSantis said:


> See I have a totally different take on things. When I ship frogs I will re-use boxes if I have them. If not I have a stack of new ones that I can use if need be. With the typical winter shipping box I usually do 2 heat packs, 1 PCM and 1 cold pack. Those along with a new box cost me around $10. Now if you take into account the time it takes me to catch the frog, pack the box, print the label, drop off the box and come home its about 2 hours. So with some peoples thinking is I should be cherging about $30 for a box charge. I am just not willing to do that. I drop my frogs off at fedex just because I save the frogs 3 hours of being in the cold. Anyway to sum it up, I charge no additional fees because I feel when sending frogs I should take the very best care of them I can. The person who bought the frogs is counting on me to do the right thing and get the frogs to them healthy and alive. I just assume I should get that in return when recieving frogs, which is not always the case. I treat it as kind of a pay it forward method.
> J


Well, all I can say is that is excellent service and it's surprising to me that you can afford to swallow that cost considering how many frogs you move. Do you have a minimum? I just don't see eating $10 on a new box when shipping a $35 leuc.

I do admire the philosophy, though.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Boondoggle said:


> Well, all I can say is that is excellent service and it's surprising to me that you can afford to swallow that cost considering how many frogs you move. Do you have a minimum? I just don't see eating $10 on a new box when shipping a $35 leuc.
> 
> I do admire the philosophy, though.


Well thankfully I have never sold just a $35 frog. I have sold 2 azureus for $100 shipped to california and after the shipping charge I made about $20 per frog. The box for that order I made instead of using a new one and it was in the fall so I didnt need any heat packs. But thats just business sometimes. Same goes for shipping plants and supplies. Once and a while I lose money on an order due to the size of the box(reason for working on the new site). Im not going to say sometimes it doesnt suck losing money or not making much but sometimes its needed to help expand the hobby. As for the frogs, your right its hard to absorb the cost within the frog price. But I chalk it up to someone who just got something they really wanted.
J


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

Jason DeSantis said:


> Well thankfully I have never sold just a $35 frog. I have sold 2 azureus for $100 shipped to california and after the shipping charge I made about $20 per frog. The box for that order I made instead of using a new one and it was in the fall so I didnt need any heat packs. But thats just business sometimes. Same goes for shipping plants and supplies. Once and a while I lose money on an order due to the size of the box(reason for working on the new site). Im not going to say sometimes it doesnt suck losing money or not making much but sometimes its needed to help expand the hobby. As for the frogs, your right its hard to absorb the cost within the frog price. But I chalk it up to someone who just got something they really wanted.
> J


This kind of good attitude is why I buy from the people that I do. They are just as happy about me getting the animal I want as I am. That is worth paying a little more sometimes for...and I do, even when someone else has it a little cheaper.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You forgot gas. For 50+miles round trip can be another $7.50 or more.



Malaki33 said:


> I am really liking this thread and would like to put foorth my 2 cents if I may.
> 
> First off I am not in the "frog buisness" I like probably 99% of us have a day job that pays for everything in life except frogs and we use the money from what we sell to by more frogs. But I am a buisness man during the day so let me lay this out if i may from a Buisness prospective.
> 
> ...


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

My policy is usually just to charge a few dollars more than the actual shipping cost (maybe $5) and that averages out to cover my cost of boxes (when I buy, though I often recycle), post office time, packing, etc. Generally I just round up the shipping cost to the nearest $10. I usually ship USPS, so this ends up being $30 for shipping total most of the time.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Other factors to consider with a box/shipping charge:

Heat/cool packs (quality ones) cost up to $5 each
Cups are .75 each

It costs time and gasoline to hand-deliver the package to a shipping facility.
Direct signature provided for each package is a couple of extra bucks as well.

That is what makes up most of the shipping cost on my end---whether or not the box is used makes no difference in the cost to my buyers based on my valuation of shipping costs overall. 


So I guess you could say the cost of the box is included as part of the frog sale, but the shipping cost is more related to other things. 

Frankly, I think the issue is too frivolous to be dividing froggers and disparaging reputable breeders. Why don't we point fingers towards more significant issues?


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## paulrust (Mar 15, 2009)

earthfrog said:


> Frankly, I think the issue is too frivolous to be dividing froggers and disparaging reputable breeders. Why don't we point fingers towards more significant issues?


I don't think this is true at all. Perhaps a hobbyist will read this and understand the costs a seller has to absorb and not be upset about it. Or someone will see that they have been getting railed by a seller. Or even see which sellers have weighed in and see their point of view and decide to buy from them....or not! I think this has been a real eye opener for me at least.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

paulrust said:


> I don't think this is true at all. Perhaps a hobbyist will read this and understand the costs a seller has to absorb and not be upset about it. Or someone will see that they have been getting railed by a seller. Or even see which sellers have weighed in and see their point of view and decide to buy from them....or not! I think this has been a real eye opener for me at least.



I guess it is a fine thread. I am just tired of seeing good threads unwind into personal attacks...


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

earthfrog said:


> I guess it is a fine thread. I am just tired of seeing good threads unwind into personal attacks...


 
No one is attacking anyone. Or should I have say I have not seen any post that I view as a personal attack on any one. 

It was just a question. I was curious as to why some people charge them for new and used boxes and some people dont charge for them at all. 

I see some really good reasons for charging for boxes and some really good reason for not charging for boxes... So please tell me where there was personal attacks?


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

porkchop48 said:


> No one is attacking anyone. Or should I have say I have not seen any post that I view as a personal attack on any one.
> 
> It was just a question. I was curious as to why some people charge them for new and used boxes and some people dont charge for them at all.
> 
> I see some really good reasons for charging for boxes and some really good reason for not charging for boxes... So please tell me where there was personal attacks?


i agree i thought this thread was one the better debates , both sides talking openly with reasoning.
craig


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

There were no personal attacks YET. I was just afraid it was going that way.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

earthfrog said:


> There were no personal attacks YET. I was just afraid it was going that way.


Ugghhhh...that is sooo like you Earthfrog! You know what your problem is??!!??...

Just kidding


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Har Har---

Let me unjack the thread now---

Charging for a used shipping box. Nuff said.


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