# Strange U shaped lump



## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Please help. I have no idea what this could be. It resembles a worm underneath the skin.


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## Ashli (Aug 28, 2005)

Is this in the same tank as the terribilis with the abrasion?

What are your temps. humidity, etc?

Any behaviour changes? Did this appear suddenly? Or grow over a period of time?

I'm not too sure what's going on, but maybe someone will be able to chime in with some more info


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

No different that one is healing fine. Humidity is usually 75-80% temps 70-75. It’s not acting differently. My best guess is maybe it climbed to the top of the bin and jumped off maybe dislocated something?


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I found this picture of a black foot with a similar almost identical marking. That curved lump right above the shoulder.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I'm no expert, but that looks an awful lot like his shoulder blade, and that it's sticking out awkwardly.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Woodswalker said:


> I'm no expert, but that looks an awful lot like his shoulder blade, and that it's sticking out awkwardly.


Thats what i thought initially but it will not go away and it is not present on any of the other frogs nor was it visible when i received this frog. He isnt sick he is eating well which lead me to believe it was some sort of bone issue like a dislocation or something.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

That's essentially what I'm saying. It looks like a dislocated shoulder blade. Maybe he should see your vet for an accurate diagnosis.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Ouch. Poor guy.


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## hungrymonkeyx3 (Apr 20, 2014)

I feel bad for the guy, any updates?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Phylobro, I think you are correct.

It looks like a subcutaneous nematode.

These can be self limiting in other sturdier herps, they are very common in Garters and other generalist feeders as they are easily removed manually, but it is a whole different ballgame of delicacy and approach with a dart frog.

You would need an AARAV practitioner for help.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I completely forgot about this thread but i will update with some pictures later today. The frog is still alive and still hs the weird lump. It is like a bump protruding from by its ear hole its the weirdest thing i have no idea what it is other than maybe something to do with his bones. It moves, eats, hops like any other frog would. I didnt take it to a vet because even at the time i noticed it didnt seem to bother it at all so i figured it was something genetic.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Here are updated pics. I’ve named him Bones because of his condition. Like I’ve said it has never shown any sign of pain or illness. Just kind of ugly lol


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## Budde (Mar 7, 2018)

He obviously cannot move his left arm. It seems that it stands in the same angle all the time.

Maybe you should visit a vet. Maybe he can relocate the arm and it will be better for him.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Budde said:


> He obviously cannot move his left arm. It seems that it stands in the same angle all the time.
> 
> Maybe you should visit a vet. Maybe he can relocate the arm and it will be better for him.


How can you tell from a picture? LOL He moves fine dude. Like ive said multiple times. It has not affected his life in any way. If it was an injury its healed long ago. I noticed this when it was just a froglet what would a vet have done? probably put it down. If you are going to begin to accuse me of being cruel, im taking another frog to the vet this Saturday. I do not neglect my frogs or any animal but thank you for being so considerate towards my frog.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Maybe he should get a little wheelchair, and some physical therapy. 

Seriously, thank you for updating the thread. Other than being lumpy, he looks good. After five months, he's obviously going to make it.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Well, it is interesting. Whether its a bone lesion or cartilaginous growth, or a migrant nematode that has found its way sub q (the more common thing, which are of many kinds and often position in a stiff coil, not always soft and wiggly as one would think of a 'worm', I do hope you keep us updated.

I also of course wish continued presentation of wellness, but if things change and he is lost, by all means take a more invasive peek, if you know what I mean. Even if you do so yourself without a Veterinarians help, with some good close ups it would increase the body of observable data.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Kmc said:


> Well, it is interesting. Whether its a bone lesion or cartilaginous growth, or a migrant nematode that has found its way sub q (the more common thing, which are of many kinds and often position in a stiff coil, not always soft and wiggly as one would think of a 'worm', I do hope you keep us updated.
> 
> I also of course wish continued presentation of wellness, but if things change and he is lost, by all means take a more invasive peek, if you know what I mean. Even if you do so yourself without a Veterinarians help, with some good close ups it would increase the body of observable data.


Oh definitely and i might take him to get checked out anyway just out of curiosity but im positive its bone. you can just see it is in person its really obvious. I really dont think there is much that can be done for him though. Even if the doctor offered some type of surgery im sure i wouldnt be able to afford it unfortunately. That is why my dog is insured. Too many sad stories about having to put animals down because the owner could not afford a procedure. Anyway i will update if i do take him otherwise the frog is totally fine.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yeah its tricky. I have had the custody, so to speak, of animals with problems that the handing and transport itself constitutes certain stress and possible harm, so I just did the best I could to make sure their lives were peaceful and full of good things and the best conditions I could make for them.

If it doesnt interfere with locomotion, feeding, or seem to cause fear or pain which I really do think can be detected in suppressed behavior, the only other thing would be how it might affect his self esteem on the Dating Scene with the other frogs. heehee. 

It really looks like a nematode to me, esp in some pics, but its important for a viewer (or any explorer of information) to acknowledge ones own bias in what "they" have experienced. And, on the other side, acknowledge what they have not.

Your post was so interesting it got me looking at frog scapulas on a deeper level. In some skeleton examples I noticed a subtle ridge intra border that reminded me of your guys albeit extra ridgey formation, and as Im typing makes me wonder if its an unusual yet harmless congenital anomaly.


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## Budde (Mar 7, 2018)

PhylloBro said:


> If you are going to begin to accuse me of being cruel, im taking another frog to the vet this Saturday. I do not neglect my frogs or any animal but thank you for being so considerate towards my frog.


Never intended to do so. Sorry if you got that wrong. I also didn't read that he is in that condition over a longer time. Just saw his leg on all pics in the same angle and thought he cannot move it.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Really sucks I have to revisit this thread with bad news but somethings going on with the frog. Bones has lost interest in food which is a giant red flag since this handicapped frog is by far the most aggressive eater. I gave it a day because the day I noticed it didn’t eat it had started to shed. It’s been 2 days now and still nothing. I’m taking it to the vet this weekend. I have to pick up dewormer for a Bicolor that day as well so two birds I guess? The thing is I really do not think it is related to it’s injury. Why all of a sudden would it effect it this way? It can still move around as well. It just doesn’t have an appetite. I’m torn between getting a fecal first or an x ray since behaviorally I would go with a fecal first but the injury is so pronounced I’m dying to know what’s going on there and if it’s affecting it in any way. They’re both expensive but X ray is double a fecal. I’ll probably just see what the vet says. I’ll update later.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry you are having so much trouble, Phyllo. Sounds like a tough situation. You are reading things the same way I would have. I guess the vet should have some insight into the best way to proceed. I am glad that Bones has an owner that is willing to do the right thing to take care of him. Well done.

Mark


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Sometimes it takes a while for parasite loads to impact feeding veracity.

At first, it can even increase it.

Please keep us informed to his diagnostics and well being. 

He looks like a great frog.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I just found Bones dead.. a few days ago he was perfectly healthy. It still looks like a healthy frog it didn’t even deteriorate it’s just dropped dead.. I made the appointment Already and I want to see if I can still get the body looked at to see if there is anything threatening the others. I’ve put it in a ziplock and put it in the fridge. I have a suspicion. I have a ton of ants and I’ve got borax traps everywhere. I’ve read these are not fatal in small amounts if an ant with it is ingested by a frog but it’s possible Bones was gobbling them down and i wasn’t noticing. I’m gonna get prices and go from there. I feel terrible for the guy. RIP Bones..


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry to hear that, man. That has to be tough. I think it's definitely worth getting a necropsy. Keep us posted. The only upside of any of this is what we might be able to learn as a community so that this doesn't happen again.

Mark


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> Sorry to hear that, man. That has to be tough. I think it's definitely worth getting a necropsy. Keep us posted. The only upside of any of this is what we might be able to learn as a community so that this doesn't happen again.
> 
> Mark


Called the vet and asked if they do necropsies. They said they no. They only do them for birds and they arent in house. They send them off to a university to have them performed. She said they could do tissue samples but it would cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. Im assuming thats what she meant but she literally said hundreds of thousands of dollars lmao Ill search around but if anyone knows of an institution who performs necropsies on amphibians let me know. If it is thousands of dollars then forget it lol Another option is i dig around myself. I have done dissections before so it definitely wouldnt be a butchering. I am actually pretty good at it. It could reveal the injury but wouldnt tell me much else unless the parasites are visible to the human eye. Ill give the search to the end of the weekend before i buy a kit and have at it. I dont want the frog in my fridge much longer than that.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I don't know if you have a vet school close to you, but they will sometimes take on a job like that so that the students can learn.

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> I don't know if you have a vet school close to you, but they will sometimes take on a job like that so that the students can learn.
> 
> Mark


I had thought the same. I wanted a necropsy done on a gecko that died for no apparent reason a couple years ago, and the vet school at UW Madison refused to do it. My regular vet did a gross necropsy for me, but I think I got lucky to have her accept the task.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Very sorry to hear Bones has died. 

You could take a look, and some well lit photographs, before things degrade and mar gross visual.

Investigation honors his life, how can you resist?


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I completely agree. I just bought a kit and a microscope. I have a work around idea. I once reached out to an entemology department and was able to speak directly to a professor. If i can collect samples and take clear images, maybe i can send these or share these on multiple platforms and get intelligent responses from qualified people. This is the cheapest and most reliable choice since i have no idea if or when i could find someone to do a necropsy, and i dont know if i would be able to afford it. Another factor is the images will remain in their current state while the body continues to deteriorate which give increases the range of opinions i can get over time from different sources. I will post them when i am able to. Overall, this totally sucks and i just miss my frog. I have two parts i want to focus on. The shoulderblade and the gut. If there is other things i should pay closer attention to i will take suggestions.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

PhylloBro said:


> If i can collect samples and take clear images, maybe i can send these or share these on multiple platforms and get intelligent responses from qualified people.


Though I don't think this will result in a diagnosis, this would be an awesome learning experience in itself. I hope you do it, and please start a thread here.

I'm sorry about the loss of your frog. I appreciate you sharing the continuing aftermath; many folks would have just walked away from the discussion.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Yes balls are dropped often on internet forums. A screen of handily managed unaccountability.

A sudden death can be not as sudden as it seemed depending on who's watching. But your engagement is clear.

Sudden death can be caused by the damaging infiltration of parasites interfering - finally - with mechanical function of a major organ. With migrant forms it can be liver, lungs, kidney, brain.

often these are organisms that can be seen with the naked eye. Its the sudden crash that is sometimes a clue.

Similar in presentation to a non pathogenic Mechanical Death.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A decent necropsy can be done with a pair of short, sharp scissors and some common tweezers. I dont think a complete histology series is expected. 

I did one with some sharp pointed odds and ends in a desk supply cup and it showed cause - clear enough to be journaled. 

I think many people would like to see whats under that scapula with a simple peel.

Just Do It!


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## ghartman (Sep 13, 2019)

Not sure what you decided to do, but if you still have the body I would just go ahead and cut man. if its been frozen, histology is not going to be very helpful. Most bodies that are necropsied in vet med are done immediately post mortem or within 24hrs (refrigerated) if you are looking for histopathologic cause of death. If it is a gross anatomical abnormality you should be able to identify it.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Im not great at navigating my lap top but it looks like to me, per your photos posts that the "injury" had moved from initial shoulder area towards temporal region.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

ghartman said:


> Not sure what you decided to do, but if you still have the body I would just go ahead and cut man. if its been frozen, histology is not going to be very helpful. Most bodies that are necropsied in vet med are done immediately post mortem or within 24hrs (refrigerated) if you are looking for histopathologic cause of death. If it is a gross anatomical abnormality you should be able to identify it.


Still have it. Yes its frozen. I havent had time. Just googled right now about it. What i found is that there are a lot of changes that occur that damage or obstruct viewing but it isnt a total fail. The tests were done on dogs but described as a nuisance but didnt prevent diagnosis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3944568

But this is done with a special procedure that i dont think i am qualified to perform. LOL 

It sounds like it should be immediately obvious via scope if the damage from freezing was too much. I really hope not but we will see. I will try to do it today.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Kmc said:


> Im not great at navigating my lap top but it looks like to me, per your photos posts that the "injury" had moved from initial shoulder area towards temporal region.


Yea thats an accurate observation. I assumed it was just due to the frog growing naturally. I really cant wait to look at that part. We will have the answers here soon. Thank you all for all of the advice and concern. This is obviously new territory for me and i would be clueless without all of your input


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

This sounds simple enough for me.

Of course, fixing fresh tissue in 10% formalin will give you the best slides for histopathological examination. However, in the past we have fixed brain and liver tissue that had been stored at -70oC and the integrity of the tissue after fixation was very good.
Take ice cold 10% formalin (keep it on ice) and put your tissue straight from the freezer into the ice cold 10% formalin. Leave it in the fridge for 24 hours (depending on size of course) and than you an store it at room temperature. Good luck.

I should add, my freezing process was just popped in the fridge and then in the freezer after a couple days. xD We shall see what damage has occured. Fingers crossed.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Formalin arrives 9/24 - 9/27 so cant do it today. This information should be very useful to others. I am learning a lot.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

So after more reading, the formalin is a longshot but it’s worth it. What it’s supposed to do I think is prevent even worse damage that occurs during thawing. Then it can be stored and observed at room temp with hopefully minimal damage. There will be damage from freezing but the thawing is what will really ruin the tissue. 

The problem is, fixing something as large as an entire frog in formalin. It sounds like it’s possible but will take longer to penetrate.


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## ghartman (Sep 13, 2019)

So I am a veterinarian, I have done some training on the necropsy floor in vet school and autolysis and freezing will definitely cause a lot of issues on definitive diagnosis, yes there are some exceptions. Tissues submitted for immunohistochemistry (viral) will typically be frozen to keep the viral particles "intact". So if this was something like ranavirus and you wanted to submit tissue for IHC to a diagnostic lab - no problem. You won't be able to get many of the commercially needed stains for home use. You can buy gram stain but unlikely to be helpful. 

I would cut into the scapular region, see if it is indeed a cutaneous nematode or if it was a dislocation injury. In freezing the tissues you distort all coloration that would be helpful in diagnosing if it was a pre-mortem injury or if it was the cause of death. Feel free to post pictures of what you find! I can see if I can help identify anything


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## ghartman (Sep 13, 2019)

Putting in formalin fixates the tissues, delaying the decomposition. Unless you have a microtome and wax fixation with H & E stain, fixating anything isn't going to be very helpful unless you send it to a lab. 

It will probably cost a couple hundred dollars for IHC, or histopath. You really also need to know what your differential for cause of death is. If it is fungal, bacterial, etc. then fixating in formalin will not help you need fresh tissue.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

ghartman said:


> Putting in formalin fixates the tissues, delaying the decomposition. Unless you have a microtome and wax fixation with H & E stain, fixating anything isn't going to be very helpful unless you send it to a lab.
> 
> It will probably cost a couple hundred dollars for IHC, or histopath. You really also need to know what your differential for cause of death is. If it is fungal, bacterial, etc. then fixating in formalin will not help you need fresh tissue.


Then i wont bother with the formalin unless i find something so bizarre in the scapular area that its worth saving to share with others. It came in today so im likely going to go through with it today. I will just let it thaw and then go in with the tools i have. I may still collect samples for the slides even if nothing can be diagnosed from them. At the very least they could demonstrate what happens to tissues after freeze/thaw. This is something i personally find very interesting.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

So whats going on with this? 

I dont buy the need to mail/do/ histology/freezing bs. This is what I find disappointing about internet forums. 

Here we had a clear opportunity to at least LOOK at something. Everyone knows that freezing destroys tissue character.

I think you found Bones with helminths found or otherwise visual through collapsed autolytic tissue. It can be a jarring sight.

I think perhaps you did do a rough investigation and for some social /ego interfaced reason you wont be forthcoming.

I sure hope im wrong as Im sick of this bs.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

We have forums like this to post Observed Data. 

Otherwise its only conversational clatter. 

Principles; not "Personalities".


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Kmc said:


> So whats going on with this?
> 
> I dont buy the need to mail/do/ histology/freezing bs. This is what I find disappointing about internet forums.
> 
> ...


Ive been more than transparent with this situation so for you to assume im not being forthcoming is beyond strange and offensive. Those assumptions are far out of line and really seem to come from nowhere. I personally dont care what "you buy", or "what you think x2". You dont know me. You only know what i have put out on this thread. Stick to the text, stop trying to imply things about other people.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I am going on only what you have posted - including the actual title of your querie " Strange U Shaped Lump" Anyone with the slenderest bent toward biological curiosity would have simply peeled the dermis back - I did such things at the age of 12. So did so many others here.

Especially when you have stated how comfortable you are with dissecting. Peeling a little swath of skin back wouldnt interfere at all with your histological "ponderings"


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I communicate on forums as I would in real life. Sorry for the inconvenience.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You also made no mention of histology until I mentioned its probable irrelevance in this format. No mention at all.

Then you went on and on about it wasting time.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Are you sure you are going off of the thread? Originally, i wanted the vet to do a necropsy, so no, i was not planning on doing any dissection myself. After realizing this was not an option, i then decided to do it myself. Seeing as how i did not have tools or a scope on hand, i had to go and purchase one myself, adding a couple more days so i decided to move the frog to the freezer which i assumed would keep everything intact for later, i was wrong. Whoops. After learning that piece i turned to how i can preserve it for observation after being removed from the freezer. The formalin took some days to arrive, and then on the day it arrived i learned i was not qualified to carry that part out without proper equipment/material. This was Yesterday i believe. I discussed taking various samples before you added, "I dont think a complete histology series is expected." So you are wrong but what is your point? I thought it might actually bring some answers until i learned later i ruined those chances by freezing. 

From what i am getting, you have it in your mind that A.) I anticipated my frog dying, B.) was prepared to dissect the frog immediately after death and C.) knew all of this information prior to my frogs death. This has been a learning process as i figured it would be and continues to be. I am not obligated to do any of this nor do i enjoy the idea of having to open up a beloved animal. Every reason for a delay is documented in this thread so again i dont know how you would get that im making stuff up to stall and make myself appear better? If that were the case i probably would not have even began this thread.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

What point are you trying to make right now? Are you trying to expose me or something? lol


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

No, i anticipated your frog dying. 

Hey the internet it is what it is. It could be different but human nature is a pungent, sticky master.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I did it. It was bone like i thought. When i opened it up the bump that was poking the skin was the joint from its arm sticking up. I will post the pictures when i get a chance.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I was pointed to this thread by a DB member. This is the first time that I have logged in to this site in 4.5 years, and unfortunately due to time constraints I will not be able to make this a regular habit. But as this is something that I know quite a bit about, I figured that I would correct some misinformation. For anyone that I am commenting on, please take no offense to any statements. I just want to make sure that there is an accurate statement response to some of these statements.



ghartman said:


> Not sure what you decided to do, but if you still have the body I would just go ahead and cut man. if its been frozen, histology is not going to be very helpful. Most bodies that are necropsied in vet med are done immediately post mortem or within 24hrs (refrigerated) if you are looking for histopathologic cause of death. If it is a gross anatomical abnormality you should be able to identify it.


There is truth to some of this. Decomposition that begins to happen immediately after death rapidly limits what can be determined from a complete necropsy. This is particularly true for frogs, which autolyze extremely quickly. Essentially, the moment you find your frog dead - you need to immediately get it cold. The easiest way is to place it in a sealed plastic bag that water cannot get into, and then place that bag in a container of ice with enough water in it to cover the ice, bury the bag in the water/ice mix, and get it in the refrigerator. 

Following that, you need to find a way to preserve the frog unless you are able to get it shipped overnight to a pathologist who can do a necropsy. Then the frog needs to be shipped in an insulated styrofoam container on several ice packs for next day delivery. If all if this is done, a full complement of tests can be run - bacterial culture, virus isolation, fungal culture, PCR, gross necropsy and histology. 

However, in most instances - the best thing to do is to place the frog in a preservative (something to prevent further decomposition). There are two options for this:

1) 10% neutral buffered formalin. Pros - it fixes tissues quickly and has little artifact of fixation (only important for the pathologist). Cons - it is harder for a hobbyist to find, it is a toxic chemical that must be handled with caution, if the frog is left in formalin too long, it can affect future testing. Frogs fixed in formalin allow for a subset of tests to be run: Gross examination, histology, some PCR

2) 70% ethanol. Pros - fixes tissues quickly and allows for more postmortem testing (greater options for PCR testing), and it is easy to make [Dilute 7.5 parts grain alcohol (Everclear liquor) to 2.5 parts water). Cons - some tissue artifact, prevents some tests such as culture. Frogs fixed in formalin allow for a subset of tests to be run: Gross examination, histology, some PCR

Freezing is a last resort, as previously mentioned, it does introduce quite a bit of tissue artifact. However, it is better than nothing. Masses (such as the one in this frogs) can still be visualized and characterized, and infectious agents (such as bacteria, fungi) can still be seen. Viral infections are harder to identify if the lesions are mild. But, a spectrum of lesions may suggest a virus. Frozen animals allow for full PCR, gross necropsy, histology, and some culture opportunities.




Kmc said:


> A decent necropsy can be done with a pair of short, sharp scissors and some common tweezers. I dont think a complete histology series is expected.


Very few final diagnoses as to the cause of death can be made on a gross examination (cut it open and look). Amphibian tissues are so small, there is often little that can be evident to the eye. A dissecting scope will help, but it is still a poor way of doing a necropsy.

It is about as useful as your car breaking down, and you open the hood to look and see what is wrong. A small amount of time you may find the cause (busted radiator, blown water pump, etc), but you will almost always need a more in depth examination.




PhylloBro said:


> I just bought a kit and a microscope. I have a work around idea. I once reached out to an entemology department and was able to speak directly to a professor. If i can collect samples and take clear images, maybe i can send these or share these on multiple platforms and get intelligent responses from qualified people.


This will not be very useful. Tissues prepared to look at under a microscope need to be preserved, processed, thin cut and stained and then examined by a professional. From just looking at the outside of something, someone may be able to tell you that there could be something wrong - but not what is causing it (unless you are lucky enough to find a worm right in the middle of it - which is unlikely in an amphibian - and not likely in your frog).



ghartman said:


> If it is fungal, bacterial, etc. then fixating in formalin will not help you need fresh tissue.


This is not necessarily true. Between a standard necropsy and histology with special stains to highlight certain characteristics, along with the pattern of lesions, much can be learned. If more info is needed, PCR is possible in many cases, that as long as there isn't excessive time in formalin (more than a few days) will still work quite well. You are correct in that you need fresh tissue for culture, but that isn't always necessary. 



PhylloBro said:


> Called the vet and asked if they do necropsies. They said they no. They only do them for birds and they arent in house. They send them off to a university to have them performed. She said they could do tissue samples but it would cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. Im assuming thats what she meant but she literally said hundreds of thousands of dollars lmao Ill search around but if anyone knows of an institution who performs necropsies on amphibians let me know.


Necropsies can be quite expensive on large animals (at some places, up to a couple of thousand dollars). This is not true for all animals. 

Amphibian necropsies are available through the Aquatic, Amphibian, and Reptile Pathology Program at the University of Florida. A frog necropsy of any type of dendrobatid is just under $70. This includes a complete gross necropsy and full histologic interpretation of all tissues and any special stains (done to identify fungi and bacteria). For larger frogs and small reptiles, you are looking more at $80-100. Only the largest of reptiles (or an adult giant chinese salamander if you have one - and if that is the case I will do it for free  ) would be in the $200-300 range (adult retics, burms, old sulcatas, aldabras, and galaps).

I am a veterinary pathologist who specializes in amphibian and reptile infectious diseases. I started on Dendroboard in the early days of the forum as a Vet Student. I have a strong passion for the care and health of amphibians and reptiles which is why I do what I do. I have worked at the Bronx Zoo, Shedd Aquarium, Brookfield Zoo, and Lincoln Park Zoo and now receive cases from around the country. I helped start a program at the University of Florida so that hobbyists would have a way to get help when they have sick animals. For most institutions, necropsies need to be submitted by a veterinarian. However, if you are willing to pay for the necropsy up front (to the University of Florida, I do not make money directly from any necropsy I do), and you will fill out the appropriate paperwork and package the animal properly - I am happy to help. I have already done this for numerous people in the hobby.

To find out more about our program and my background - you can click here https://labs.vetmed.ufl.edu/services/aqarpath/ 
and here 
https://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/about-the-college/faculty-directory/robert-ossiboff/

If you would like to submit an animal for necropsy, I can be reached at the email address in my bio. I also work with the ZooMedicine Diagnostic laboratory where we have the ability to test for Bd, Bsal, ranavirus, and other parasites. 

I do not give out treatment info or drug information based on pictures or descriptions. I am sorry - but it is illegal to do so, and inappropriate medical care. I also am not likely to respond to PMs, so email is the best way to get in touch with me.


Robert Ossiboff, DVM, PhD, DACVP 
Assistant Professor 
Aquatic, Amphibian, and Reptile Pathology | ZooMed Diagnostic Laboratory 
Department of Comparative Diagnostic and Population Medicine
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Florida
Gainesville, FL


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Can't thank you enough for stopping by, Oz.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

That post is the most useful thing to come from this thread. Thank you


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

In my boots on the ground experiences, since 1981 having been teched and trained in the old fashioned way by the reptile veterinarian of the reptile collection Bronx Zoo, then later at the Ca Oakland Zoo, and my own conservative explorations. I do understand that a rough visual is not ideal but if visual parasites were visually apparent, it would be better than no visual investigation at all. 

I will go out on a limb here and disclose that I have done as personal quest per rough necropsies, and have determined mechanical sub ingest, parasite, and even some other causes. (Polymer crystal ingestion, journaled)

I will go out on a limb even more to say that over exuberant supplementation causes harm, and is in vogue applied per presentation of worrisome mysteries of health matters. Causing toxicity and death - Rarely investigated.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Sorry for the huge delay I’ve been super busy with life stuff. Here are some pictures I took of Bones. As you can see, the light grey is the bone.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Here is something interesting I found. Near the bone injury was this strange looking growth. It was like a bubble that wouldn’t pop. I could move it around and it would keep its shape. It’s possible I knicked something and didn’t notice but as far as I know it was present as soon as the bone was revealed. Here are pictures


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

To prove that what the “U” was was actually bone, I removed it completely. Here is the scapular. I also removed a loose bone shard that was near the injury. I determined it was bone by feel so yeah lol but I’m positive it’s bone.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I just noticed the image quality is terrible. When I get a chance I’ll try a different method


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