# Variabilis or Imitator?



## hexentanz

Hello Everyone,

In September of last year I purchased two frogs from a breeder I have gotten several frogs from. He is known to be reliable in the hobby and has been breeding and caring for dart frogs for over 20 years.

My plan was to hopefully pair up these frogs with my previous two variabilis who both turned out to be males. On arriving home I noticed they were very different looking than my previous two at home. My previous two look like the picture found here http://www.dendrobates.org/images/thumbs/variabilis_acct.jpg .

The two newer ones look like this however.


















To me they look like imitator, they are a pinch larger and have common imitator markings.

When I called the breeder and mentioned the difference he informed me that patterns, etc can change overtime down the line and that he has never had any of the standard imitator in his collection.

However I still have doubts as to what they are. :/ I have tried playing call recordings to them and they do not respond to the calls of variabilis or imitator.


----------



## Julio

looks like an imi to me!


----------



## stemcellular

Looks like imitators to me. 

Variabilis should only have one spot on the nose. You can also check their venter to assess belly markings. 









"Variabilis possess a single dorsal nose spot with two small spots on the tip of the nose that are not visible when viewed from above, while the two spots on the tip of the nose on an imitator extend onto the top of the head, and can be seen from above. These spots may or may not intersect with one or more smaller nose spots."

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/24855-dendrobates-variabilis-intermediate.html


----------



## frogparty

imis Id say


----------



## Devanny

100% sure they are imitators. Kinda messed up that they were sold to you as variabilis.
I like the spots on them.


----------



## theglassfrog

i agree with everyone too definetly imitators i just got some on saturday at the pomona show and they look identical to yours. either way u still have great frogs the price difference between the two isnt very much. i hope the breeder just made a mistake or he might be calling them intermedius to get a few more bucks out of u which would suck.


----------



## brooklyndartfrogs

Everyone is forgetting one major issue and that is nominate imitators "copy/mimic" variabilis in the wild, So they look very similar. Also when they're young they don't have as much blue on them as they do in adult age. I would raise them up and see what they look like and compare as well as listening for calling. If the guy sold them as variabilis I wouldn't necessarily doubt his word unless there is something else that would lead you to believe otherwise.
Andy


----------



## chuckpowell

In the original desciptions variabilis has one spot on the nose and imitator two. 

Best,

Chuck


----------



## johnc

Definitely imitators.


----------



## Roadrunner

I had a similar thing happen over here. I purchased imitators and recieved 2 imitators and 2 variabilis from a breeders who has been in it a long time over here.


----------



## sports_doc

Julio said:


> looks like an imi to me!


Interesting....they look like Variabilis to me.

Obviously if/when one calls you will know, given how different their calls are...

Contact Oz. He bred literally piles of INIBICO variabilis and there were some if not many with variable nose spotting. When the INIBICO lines came into the US they were split into yellow, green, blue etc based on the variability in patterns and the 'marketability' of selling them as if they were separate morphs [they were not]. 

The 'blending' of the yellow head coloring into the blue/green legs mid body is a classic pattern for variabilis. 

What color are their bodies? 'Usually' imitator have yellow chests, while the variabilis are blue....then again they dont call them VARIABILIS for nothing ;-)


S


----------



## ErickG

I completely agree with Shawn. You really wont be certain until they start calling. That is, also given that at least one of them is male. If they turn out female, it's obviously going to be more difficult.

But to add something to the topic, keep an eye on their movements. I cant quite describe it but I've noticed the imi's and variabilis walk/behave differently. The variabilis have sharper/quick movements, as compared to my imis/intermedius. If someone else can chime in on this observation and confirm, that would be great. (Perhaps, Oz?!) 

Either I'm spending too much time watching them or I gotta cut back on the "recreational" stuff. hahahaha.


----------



## hexentanz

I was finally able to get a belly shot, little buggers did not want to come on the front glass till late in the day today, they must have known I was going to play paparazzi.










ErickG is it interesting you mention the movements. This is another thing I have noticed and that is that they move differently. My original two which I know 100% are variabilis move quickly often in what would be big sprints for us. The other two unknowns almost seem to slowly dart across surfaces.

The frogs were 8 months when I purchased them (turns out it was March of last year and not Sept), so they are well over a year now.


----------



## stemcellular

I dunno fellas, that belly looks like an imi to me.


----------



## brooklyndartfrogs

I still think it could go either way!
Andy


----------



## stemcellular

time to go to genotype.


----------



## sports_doc

Imi









Imis









Imi









Imi









Imi









Imis









Imi









Imi









Var









Var









Var









Var 'Yellow body'









Var


----------



## Chris Miller

It's going to come down to calling and egg laying (or genetic testing). My opinion, although worthless, is variabilis. My first variablis was sold to me as an imitator by Reptile Specialties. She had a broken nose dot and looked like an imitator. My male imitator tried his best, but she wanted nothing to do with him. Even if they had courted I doubt that he would have found an acceptable laying site since they have different egg depostion locations and strategies. 

Long story short, I got a 'second' female imitator who immediately bred with the male and then I pulled the variablilis because she was getting picked on and set her up in her own tank. I finally realized what she was when I found a mass of black eggs in an upright film canister in her tank. It took a while to get her a male since it was about $135 for juvies back then. Geeze I sound like an old man rambling on about nothing.

Good luck,


----------



## johnc

hexentanz said:


>


Compare with a random one of my imitators:


----------



## hexentanz

Aurotaenia said:


> It's going to come down to calling and egg laying (or genetic testing). My opinion, although worthless, is variabilis. My first variablis was sold to me as an imitator by Reptile Specialties. She had a broken nose dot and looked like an imitator. My male imitator tried his best, but she wanted nothing to do with him. Even if they had courted I doubt that he would have found an acceptable laying site since they have different egg depostion locations and strategies.
> 
> Long story short, I got a 'second' female imitator who immediately bred with the male and then I pulled the variablilis because she was getting picked on and set her up in her own tank. I finally realized what she was when I found a mass of black eggs in an upright film canister in her tank. It took a while to get her a male since it was about $135 for juvies back then. Geeze I sound like an old man rambling on about nothing.
> 
> Good luck,



I think i will try this. Tomorrow I will place the two with my others and see if anything happens. If it fails I know to buy an imitator male or two. 

And hehehe I know how you feel on the pricing of things.


----------



## Chris Miller

Good luck. Let us know how it goes!


----------



## hexentanz

Thought I would add a small update to how things are going. 

I introduced the other frogs after writing my last reply here on the thread. There was a lot of calling the first few days from the two confirmed males previously in the tank. So far no interest has been shown to them whatsoever.


----------



## prolawn_care

100% imi's Here's a picture of a pair i have up for grabs in the trade section and i know for sure they are imi's! Looks almost identical, mine are from nabor's line.










Hope this helps!


----------



## sports_doc

Yes, but Maureen's are from....Germany 

And I still think they could be either....

What did the call sound like Maureen?

S


----------



## hexentanz

sports_doc said:


> Yes, but Maureen's are from....Germany
> 
> And I still think they could be either....
> 
> What did the call sound like Maureen?
> 
> S


The two that I know are absolutely Variabilis call like Variabilis. Both of them are male. This I found out ages ago and sought out a female and ended up with the odd guys.

The two oddballs, make no sounds.


----------

