# New build and for who?



## scadut (Dec 12, 2013)

Hi all,

Most of the time I plan for species before I design, however, I had laying around a few panes of glass and pieces of wood that fit perfectly so I just starting creating. A month later, here I am with a tank that I love the way it turned out but now I'm wondering what to put in it. It's 40"(L) x 20"(W) x 32"(H).

There is a good amount of "jungle floor" space but there is also some height to it. I really want to get some yellow terribilis and am wondering if they would best be suited for this tank once planted. I've heard they dont prefer climbing much but I'm wondering if they would still take advantage of all the space in the horizontally and vertically. Let me know what you all think!


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

scadut said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Most of the time I plan for species before I design, however, I had laying around a few panes of glass and pieces of wood that fit perfectly so I just starting creating. A month later, here I am with a tank that I love the way it turned out but now I'm wondering what to put in it. It's 40"(L) x 20"(W) x 32"(H).
> 
> ...


I don’t keep terribilis but I’m pretty sure you can incorporate a vertical section with success. When frogs are classified as terrestrial, they usually spend their time on the leaf litter but spend time up in the air as well. I can only think of one “terrestrial” frog that won’t use vertical space and those are castis, which aren’t even legal. They’ll absolutely use the horizontal space. Maybe a terrib owner can come in.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I dig that central ledge and the gestalt of the whole thing. 

And the prehistoric canid face the shadows fall to make.


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## athiker04 (Nov 15, 2013)

Beautiful tank! You could put anything you want in a tank that size with that layout. If it were me, I'd probably be torn between a good group Ranitomeya, or a pair of some large obligate.


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## Kribensis (Jan 14, 2021)

Terribs don't climb as much as some other frogs, but mine still utilize some vertical space. My younger pair is in an 18x18x24, and I see them up high every now and then. They really love gradually sloping branches that they can climb without much effort.

Love the tank!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

They are like the Baboons of the dart frog world.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I would like to follow the evolution of this environment and hear about its beginnings and to know if that is a peat base on your background.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Ranitomeya the marmosets and tamarins.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Details on the background. Hand em over.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Louis said:


> Details on the background. Hand em over.


Lol. I agree, that background looks phenomenal. 

OP: can you share with us how you made it?


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Almost makes you want to see it planted sparsely, so the bones of the thing don't get obscured too much... @scadut if you want any planting advice let me know, I'd happily come up with suggestions for that.


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## scadut (Dec 12, 2013)

Thank you for the kind comments. @athiker04 I think it would be cool to have a ton of ranitomeyas in there to make the tank appear even bigger, compared to the small inhabitants, I would just be afraid that they would sneak out during tank maintenance and such. They really are little ninjas. Also, I have a few imitator "Varaderos" already and I've never had any terribilis before. I've always loved the chunky ones. Thinking on going with them and hoping they take advantage of the upper shelf layer that's approx. 2/3 the way up.

As for the build, it took a little more than a month from beginning to end. Used quarter inch glass all around, and basically followed Troy Goldberg's videos on building tanks with a few changes thrown in for a slightly different design. I used a European design, but I'm looking for ways to eventually just have a small glass piece in front (few inches high) with a metal mesh frame about that. I want to make more floor space.

I always coat the entire back with a full layer of GS expanding foam first, then shave most of it off. I don't have many build pics of this particular work, but here is the tank in it's infancy when I was deciding the misting holes: Mistking set up opinion

I'm always keeping an eye out for pieces of wood that I might use later. I just play around with positioning wood in places that call to me. One thing I absolutely cannot stand is wood that is not uniform. I try to pair wood of similar grain, color, and species. I also try to place wood that moves your eyes in a consistent direction. For example, your eyes probably start with that big statement piece in the center, then move in the downwards direction of the bottom pieces. The back at the statement piece, then move up to the smaller piece pointing to the upper left. At least that's what my eyes do.

I always work with the light I plan on using. Especially when planning where the wood goes. For me lighting is inarguably more important that all else, aesthetically speaking. For GS foam, I always think: two steps forward one back. I keep adding foam in places, then pick it away with my fingers and shape in according to the lighting/shading/purpose I want.

For covering the GS foam, I use a 3:2:1 mixture of zoomed reptisoil : sakrete mortar mix : water. This is the greyish background. Mixed it all together. I go for a soft-dog-poo consistency. Then before I put the mixture on the foam, I use a layer of pond and shield epoxy on the foam (coat with hands) to hold the mortar mixture to the foam. It's a two man (or woman) job. One person is rubbing the pond and shield on the foam, one person follows and puts the mixture on after. Your only time constraint is the pond and shield. The mixture tanks forever to dry.

After a whole week of drying, the majority of the mixture will fall off. I just brush it off. In random spots I dabbed on GE 1 silicone then a peat/coco fiber/tree fern/sphagnum moss mix on the silicone. peat & tree fern for nutrients, coco for durability, and sphagnum for pH balance.

Before you do this though, I have read in some places that mortar slowly secretes salt from the lime in it. It hasn't caused any problems in my other tanks. Just keep it moist to avoid powder from the mortar. I am currently experimenting with Polygem Zoopoxy for a new less involved, lighter, safer, and more realistic background. I'm currently practicing on pressing rocks into the Polygem, wet-washing, then dry brushing it with acrylics.

If you have any other questions feels free to ask. I love discussing construction.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Thanks, really dig your work and words Scadut.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I have read in some places that mortar slowly secretes salt from the lime in it. It hasn't caused any problems in my other tanks. Just keep it moist to avoid powder from the mortar.


It's the Portland cement in most mortars that is the culprit that leads to calcium salts appearing. Your approach will work just fine if you consider "the problem" to be _powder_. Really though, it's _alkalinity_ - whether the efflorescence is allowed to dry to powder, or is kept in (invisible) solution, you're still at risk of burning the feet off of frogs for at least a month. Either keep the water flowing, or let the efflorescence cure to calcium carbonate - and keep the animals off it for at least a month.



> I'm currently practicing on pressing rocks into the Polygem, wet-washing, then dry brushing it with acrylics.


Polygem makes great materials, I've used their 307-lite (though nothing else from them) many times. Curious - what do you mean by "wet-washing"? Is that just the first color of paint? And, which product of theirs are you using?

My experience - I have also used acrylics, employing a "first color" then dry-brushing on additional ones. Two things help a lot - 1) get that first coat of acrylic on there while the epoxy is still really tacky, and 2) ever thereafter, don't let the paint stay too wet. I've had it slough off around drip walls, even after a good cure on the epoxy AND the acrylic. Like, weeks to a month duration.

Subsequently I have switched to just using dry pigments. I "dash" them on with a paint brush. That also adds a lot of fine texture to the "stone". Using dry pigments, I can have water _flowing_ and have had no issues (yet?).


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## scadut (Dec 12, 2013)

jgragg said:


> It's the Portland cement in most mortars that is the culprit that leads to calcium salts appearing. Your approach will work just fine if you consider "the problem" to be _powder_. Really though, it's _alkalinity_ - whether the efflorescence is allowed to dry to powder, or is kept in (invisible) solution, you're still at risk of burning the feet off of frogs for at least a month. Either keep the water flowing, or let the efflorescence cure to calcium carbonate - and keep the animals off it for at least a month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is very interesting information regarding my background and potential effects it may have. In my older tanks I can see salt or crystalline deposits which I now know is the due to the background. I'm wondering if these deposits are harmful to the frogs still, being months to years old now. So far, I haven't noticed any long term effects to the frogs. Another thing I am wondering if the alkalinity of the background is affecting my plants. I posted a bit ago regarding a ficus pumilia that is slowly growing on my background. Parts of the plants are turning yellow and parts are much darker green. One member (actually @Harpspiel who's on this chat) suggested it was a high pH which is alkalinity. No sure if ficus pumilia gets nutrients from it tendril-like projections which anchor to the background. @Harpspiel I will absolutely take you up on planting advice when the time comes  here is the thread if you are interested in plant care or another tanke I built using the same techniques: Help - burning or deficiency in ficus pumila?

The wet-washing technique is something I picked up from years of painting warhammer. Wet-washing is the exact opposite of dry brushing. Dry brushing is meant to highlight the raised portions of the background texture. When you wet-wash, you are targeting the recessed cracks and crevices instead. You can use acrylic or even cement pigment to essentially stain the crevices. You very heavily dilute the paint/etc. then brush on the background. the dark, runny water will pool in the crevices and dry, leaving only the dark color in the cracks. This way when you go back and dry brush later, it makes the pop even more. This guy does a great job at demonstrating wet-washing: 

(start from 2:25-end)







I called polygem and spoke to the epoxy guru; Dave T. He recommended the 307 lite as well. He mentioned how the product is specifically for dart frogs. It really is fantastic. I'm currently working on another built using the 307 lite. I'm still working on ensuring the acrylic stays on the epoxy even after high humidity and constant misting. Dave mentioned another product, 1618 - which is a clear coat that can cover the background. I'm waiting for it to come in but if you are curious to hear more about it, highly recommend calling him - he's a joy to talk to. I'm curious how you keep your coloring on, so please elaborate more!


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## scadut (Dec 12, 2013)

Now that I think about the original purpose of this post which was "Would phyllobates take advantage of the height" I should have posted this in the phyllobates sub-forum lol


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## darkranger69 (Feb 13, 2015)

Nice build, will look great when planted, imitators will be a nice choice, I guess galactonotus will do great as well.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Non-Toxic Pigments and Decorative Mica Products for Paints and Coatings

This (above) is what I've used most recently, in combination with some stuff I've been using for years (Cement Color)

Here's a recent "rock"









And an older one


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I'm curious how you keep your coloring on, so please elaborate more!


Use the epoxy stickiness to grab the powder. That's it, at root. 

I usually start with the darkest color, and work to the lighter. I usually have a piece of cardboard with little piles of powders, a shot glass of water, a knife, and a paint brush. I sprinkle dry powder (with the knife) onto the sticky epoxy, dampen the brush, and start "stippling". I also mix some colors on the cardboard, using the damp brush, and transfer that powder with the damp brush. More "stippling" then.

After the epoxy cures I take the piece to a sink and wash the shit out of it. Give it a light scrub too. Get any loose powder off so animals don't eat it. 

Clear enough? Ask, if not.

cheers


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## cmlloveless (Mar 31, 2012)

Some good info here. That 307 Lite seems like a great product, but it is so dang expensive!!!

Any idea how far a 2 quart package will cover? I have a huge 36"x18"x36" tank I want to do some rocks on parts of the walls. I'd hate to have to purchases the 2 gallon package....

My last tank I ran into the issue with the acrylic paint peeling off after a bit as well. I've been on the look out ever since for some kind of clear water resistant coat that isn't shiny. I want that dull look of real rock.


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## cmlloveless (Mar 31, 2012)

So I looked into it and the 1618 clear coat is designed to work for this type of application as it is use to seal rock work and floors in zoos and be resistant to high humidity.

Only problem I have with it is that it is shiny! It does not have a matte finish which would be ideal to get a real rock look.

Does anyone know of a sealer or clear coat that has a matte finish that does not have any solvents in it and safe for use in a terrarium?


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Coverage depends in large part on how thick you lay it on. I have only bought the 2-gal kits. I'm nearing the bottom of my third purchase, and have built quite a few large vivs with them. I used to cover pretty much the entire inside - bottom, back, both sides, and the front other than my sliding glass doors. One 2-gal kit is good for maybe a pair of big vivs done that way - say 32"Wx24"Dx48"T.

I have no worries about you running out on "some rocks, on parts of the walls" in a little 36x18x36, using a 2-qt kit. Especially if you make them as I did in the upper photo - carve, coat, and color a series of smaller "rocks" that you can then adhere to the glass. Just coat and color one at a time - when you run out, hey, you're out. It might be on rock #6, or #7, or whatever.



> clear water resistant coat that isn't shiny...


Myeah....good luck with that. I was on the same hunt for a while, and came to the conclusion I don't really need it. Which is a good thing, because I never found what I thought I wanted. Matte acrylic coatings aren't that durable, and epoxy seems almost invariably shiny. Either high gloss, or semi-gloss. Too shiny, either way; also, a clear coating just looks fake. _You can always tell_ there's a clear-coat.

That said, using dry pigments atop (and slightly embedded into) the epoxy works great to hide the shiny. And, no peel-off. I think it's "the final solution to the fake-rock problem". Look at my lower, brownish "rock" - just carved foam, coated in 307-lite, with 3 Sakcrete dry pigments (buff, terra cotta, and charcoal) dashed on (both sequentially and "muddled") with a damp paint brush. That "rock" was about 5 years old when I took the photo. I'm no artist, but that rock works for me and what I am doing.

good luck!


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## scadut (Dec 12, 2013)

@jgragg your info is actually super helpful on ways to paint the epoxy resin. I really liked that second picture in particular. Any chance you could post a couple more of that rock structure? I will definitely check out more of those nontoxic pigments. I was planning on using the sakrete concrete pigments but it says on the container 'keep away from aquatic habitats" or something along those lines on the bottom of the box. You haven't have any trouble with frogs hopping around the fake rocks with their bare feet? If not, then hell, I'll try it then just was most of it off.

Talking about your process, let me know if I understand this correctly. While the 307 lite is starting to cure but still malleable, you begin the coloring process by sprinkling powder then brush/stipple it around? I just finished experimenting with some cheap non-toxic acrylic colors from Michael's and the sakrete pigments. Here are some of the sample products I was able to get, that I'm happy with as long as the acrylic will hold as well as the powdered pigments. If anyone can speak to using acrylic paints, please join in.

















@cmlloveless The 307 lite is fantastic to work with. You can use any stone and press into it to get amazing textures. It's sole purpose is for this hobby hahah. Regarding the "high shine" of the 1618, I mentioned before I've been on the phone a few times with Dave T the Polygem guru. According to him there is a way to get the 1618 to come out as a matte finish. He has instructed me on using talc (baby powder) and sprinkle it on the 1618 after brushing it on. About 1-1 1/2 hours into it curing, you are supposed to use a scotch-brite pad and essentially sand the curing 1618 epoxy surface. This is supposed to break the microscopic seal caps on the surface that gives off a shine. This is what Dave has told me to do to remove all shine to it. He hasn't steered me wrong yet so I have to believe him. Either way, I bought some because I want to try it and see. If it doesn't work: oh well no biggy. If it's an extra step that I don't need - oh well. Either way I can report back my findings. I get the product delivered on Monday so sometime the next day I can let you all know how it works on.

I will say tho, I am skeptical about the product actually working how I want it to look. I'm betting that jgragg's method will work just fine as it's already been proven.


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## cmlloveless (Mar 31, 2012)

Let us know how that talc powder process works out. The idea would be that you can paint the stones using acrylic paints and then clear coat over it so that the acrylic is not ruined by the humidity. While dry pigments look good too they just cant give the same look that painting with acrylics can, and after a while the pigments tend to start waring off and fading. If that's the look you like then it is fine.

I'm wondering if sanding down the clear coat like that will leave a "cloudy" matte look over the acrylic paint. If you try this send some pics.


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## scadut (Dec 12, 2013)

If you intend on finding a sealant to cover acrylic paints on a background, don't waste your time with the Polygem 1816 clear coat. It came out glossy as ever, even with trying to scratch the surface and disrupt the upper layer while curing. I don't want to diminish the product's original usage, however. It is a fantastic product that I would recommend aquarium hobbyist use in order to coat fake corals if they so choose to go down that path. However using it for backgrounds in the dart frog/vivarium setting, it just doesn't look good and the entire thing is super glossy.

I will say that the Polygem 307 lite is working great and I'm using a spin off of @jgragg 's method described above. After I texturize the 307 lite by pressing a rock into the wall to get the "negative", I used a black cement pigment wash to 'dirty' the stones. Then threw/sprinkles some earthy pigments (bought from www.earthpigments.com/ ) on the background in the early stages of it curing. I'm hoping the pigments will bleed enough into the 307 epoxy then I can just rinse off the excess once fully cured. I will post some pics once it is finished curing. 

If anyone knows of the aquarium version on dendroboard, I am looking to see the quart of polygem 1618 as I have no need for it. Sucks but, hey we all found out how not to seal a background. Or if anyone uses Polygem 1618 please DM me. I'd happily sell you it as I literally used less than a shot glass's worth of the stuff.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Any chance you could post a couple more of that rock structure? I will definitely check out more of those nontoxic pigments. I was planning on using the sakrete concrete pigments but it says on the container 'keep away from aquatic habitats" or something along those lines on the bottom of the box. You haven't have any trouble with frogs hopping around the fake rocks with their bare feet? If not, then hell, I'll try it then just was most of it off.


I keep snakes not frogs. I take what I think is reasonable and prudent care for animal welfare, but am not overly concerned with those warnings. More on my methods of care, farther down below.

Meanwhile, some fake rocks:

Acrylic coloring, pool on drip wall; about 4 years old









Dry pigment coloring, very recent remodel (pulled down some of the old fake-rock background, replaced with some cracked-cork mosaic)









same tank









Another remodel, some old (6 yrs?) some new (6 months?) here









And yet another remodel, some old some new here, same ages (just a plant holding tank - cuttings & pups etc)












> ... let me know if I understand this correctly. While the 307 lite is starting to cure but still malleable, you begin the coloring process by sprinkling powder then brush/stipple it around?


Yes, exactly. You can begin coloring immediately after you've got the epoxy laid on, or you can go take a break and come back after a little bit. The key is, the epoxy *needs to still be very sticky*, in order to "grab" the powder. If it's gotten to its "nothing sticks to it" state, you're screwed.



> ... I just finished experimenting with some cheap non-toxic acrylic colors from Michael's and the sakrete pigments. Here are some of the sample products I was able to get, that I'm happy with as long as the acrylic will hold as well as the powdered pigments. If anyone can speak to using acrylic paints, please join in.


I haven't used dry pigment in combination with acrylic, just mixed acrylics. The biggest issue I have with acrylics is their adhesion to epoxy. I have found that they don't adhere that well in really wet situations. They work great in drier vivs though. As long as you apply the paint while the epoxy still has some tackiness to it. Once it's hard, it's really resistant to stuff sticking to it.



> After I texturize the 307 lite by pressing a rock into the wall to get the "negative", I used a black cement pigment wash to 'dirty' the stones. Then threw/sprinkles some earthy pigments (bought from www.earthpigments.com/ ) on the background in the early stages of it curing. I'm hoping the pigments will bleed enough into the 307 epoxy then I can just rinse off the excess once fully cured.


Yes, this is good. You can sprinkle pigment before even beginning to emboss texture - that just helps push the pigment into good contact with the epoxy. Also - correct, you wind up putting on more powder than will stick. The colors are likely to shift a little, once it's all cured and you carry the "rock" to your utility sink and wash it (I actually give it a light scrub, to remove anything that might otherwise be loose enough to get ingested by an animal). But this "layering" or "phases" approach is exactly what I use.


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