# Blue jeans for sale a lot?



## kingnicky101

I have been seeing a lot of blue jeans for sale lately and am wondering how many people must be having luck with them that there are so many around. I'm even seeing them getting cheaper, not by much but a lot cheaper than they were like 6 months ago. So what is going on with these guys? Does anybody think their price will drop like the veraderos did?


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## jon

I would suspect that the main reason you're seeing a lot of them is that it's becoming shipping season. Blue Jeans aren't the only frogs that are suddenly more readily available in the classifieds area. More pums, vents, imis, lamasis, etc. are all now for sale.

EDIT - And who knows? Maybe people are selling them more now because they need the money.


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## BBoyette

No not like the varadero...these are still rare frogs, just wait and see how many will be around this time next year and im sure the price will double.


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## Ulisesfrb

There was also a good sized import from Europe last year, which is a small part of the reason, in addition to the ones mentioned above. I don't think their price will drop much in the future.


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## stemcellular

A ton have been imported over the last three-four months. These are adults FR BJs. I was at a meet about a month ago where the fellow importing them spread out like 10 pairs on the table for 550/600 a pop. 

Having said that, a few folks that did get some of the recent imports are getting large, good clutches, so we will likely see some CB BJs available in the near future. But yeah, these are all recent imports, not CB frogs.


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## puckplaya32

Who imported farm raised individuals, I believe they are laundered animals from Europe


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## stemcellular

well, that is clearly up for debate. they all came in with the proper paperwork as being FR but that isn't saying much. same goes for the histos and sylvaticus.


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## puckplaya32

Legal paperwork just like the histos and sylvaticus lol


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## Philsuma

stemcellular said:


> well, that is clearly up for debate. they all came in with the proper paperwork as being FR but that isn't saying much. same goes for the histos and sylvaticus.


 
Ray....put down the Kool Aid.

Do you really think they are legal frogs?

Have you seen the paperwork?


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## yumpster

All the ones I have been seeing are 50% cheaper than they used to be, and they still seem to not be selling very quickly. All kinds of red flags are going off in my brain.


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## stemcellular

puckplaya32 said:


> Legal paperwork just like the histos and sylvaticus lol


yeah, well, like I said, up for debate.



yumpster said:


> All the ones I have been seeing are 50% cheaper than they used to be, and they still seem to not be selling very quickly. All kinds of red flags are going off in my brain.


Yeah, well they were brought in by the boatload and the number of folks willing to shell out that kinda cash is somewhat finite.



Philsuma said:


> Ray....put down the Kool Aid.
> 
> Do you really think they are legal frogs?
> 
> Have you seen the paperwork?


yes, and the Pope had no idea that priests were molesting all those little kids.


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## Ed

stemcellular said:


> well, that is clearly up for debate. they all came in with the proper paperwork as being FR but that isn't saying much. same goes for the histos and sylvaticus.


Doesn't CR have a zero export quota for Dendrobates for commercial purposes? 
http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2009/ExportQuotas2009.pdf 

Depending on the country of origin in Europe that is providing the frogs for shipment to the US, there should be a record of the import from CR... if they don't have a record of import then that should answer the question (and get USF&W very interested in the recent imports..) 


Ed


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## Tony

Ed said:


> Doesn't CR have a zero export quota for Dendrobates for commercial purposes?
> http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2009/ExportQuotas2009.pdf


That's what I thought too, so I don't see how the European imports can be "legal FR" if they are real Blue Jeans.


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## stemcellular

Tony said:


> if they are real Blue Jeans.


Well, there you go. Without site data you can't really say.


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## puckplaya32

They are just simply WC animals smuggled into EU and exported to the US. The number of honest CB BJ's from legitimate sources is very small, that includes the europeans with legitimate animals. Do you honestly think they are that much more successful at breeding difficult obligate egg feeders than those of us stateside? I highly doubt it. This is the cycle in action that encourages the smuggling of these pumilio as well as the histos and sylvaticus, undermining those who are trying to make legal options available to hobbyists.


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## Philsuma

stemcellular said:


> Well, there you go. Without site data you can't really say.


Sounds like you are making an argument for turning a blind eye towards smuggling......


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## puckplaya32

Agreed turning a blind side to smuggling, especially since they havent been legally exported anytime recently be it WC or FR


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## stemcellular

Philsuma said:


> Sounds like you are making an argument for turning a blind eye towards smuggling......


Not at all. What I am saying is that we should avoid making claims (like many in this thread) without the proper information. The frogs being sold have been advertised as FR and were cleared through Fish and Game (from what I was told). That is all I know. Saying that something has been smuggled without being able to substantiate your claim is reckless and I won't be involved in such behavior. It is ultimately up to each individual to decide whether to purchase such frogs. As noted in another contemporary thread, one way to avoid supporting the acquisition of frogs without proper/questionable paperwork is to not purchase them. 

I don't support smuggling and would not purchase smuggled frogs (I do support purchasing WC/FR frogs). However, I also don't support making unsubstantiated claims. 

Re: my original comment, Ksnichikty, that is why we have so many available at the moment.

Phil, to that specific comment, what I was referring to is the origin of the recently imported BJs. I heard someone mention that they could be from an adjacent country and not necessarily CR.

(Disclaimer: I don't own any BJs).


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## Tony

stemcellular said:


> Phil, to that specific comment, what I was referring to is the origin of the recently imported BJs. I heard someone mention that they could be from an adjacent country and not necessarily CR.


But if they aren't Costa Rican, are they really BJs? I thought the reason BJs were scarce in the hobby is because they are ONLY found in CR and therefore can't be imported.


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## Ed

stemcellular said:


> .
> 
> Phil, to that specific comment, what I was referring to is the origin of the recently imported BJs. I heard someone mention that they could be from an adjacent country and not necessarily CR.


Isn't Nicaragua closed as well?... 

I'm not pointing fingers simply discussing the idea behind it all. 
As we all know, laundered frogs can come into the country and be cleared by USF&W simply because the agent didn't question the premise that they would have had to have been smuggled from a closed country. I have doubts that the imports were labeled as "blue jean" morphs and were simply imported as O. pumilio (actually D. pumilio since I don't think CITES has been upgraded yet). As the frogs are CITES II and supposedly farm raised, then the imported into the US could have requested the original import paperwork from the exporting country which would have shown where they originated. This could have accompanied the frogs to the US and resolved the question of country of origin etc. 

In addition, if one is checking out other sites that sell frogs, there are frogs being sold as blue jeans that are probably not truley blue jeans. 

Ed


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## Philsuma

Nico is closed....for now, from what I understand. I have a friend down there.

True BJ's come only from CR, or perhaps Nico. I havent been to Nico but I did recently spend some time looking at hundreds of pumilio in CR - many of them, BJ. I know what they look like.

To say "We were *told* they were legal" and nothing more, is a head turning, hand washing statement.

If someone had $3,000 dollars worth of pumilio at a meeting, they would have the paperwork with them right? For you to see. Afterall, it is a big high dollar purchase and everyone would want it to be tight, right?


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## stemcellular

Philsuma said:


> Nico is closed....for now, from what I understand. I have a friend down there.
> 
> True BJ's come only from CR, or perhaps Nico. I havent been to Nico but I did recently spend some time looking at hundreds of pumilio in CR - many of them, BJ. I know what they look like.
> 
> To say "We were *told* they were legal" and nothing more, is a head turning, hand washing statement.
> 
> If someone had $3,000 dollars worth of pumilio at a meeting, they would have the paperwork with them right? For you to see. Afterall, it is a big high dollar purchase and everyone would want it to be tight, right?


Exactly Phil. Exactly...


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## jon

Philsuma said:


> To say "We were *told* they were legal" and nothing more, is a head turning, hand washing statement.


Out of curiosity... do you have, or have you seen, the paperwork for every frog you own? Or have you been told they were legal and accepted it at face value?


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## Philsuma

jon said:


> Out of curiosity... do you have, or have you seen, the paperwork for every frog you own? Or have you been told they were legal and accepted it at face value?


I don't own any blue jeans pumilio. Lets stick to the thread topic shall we?


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## jon

Philsuma said:


> I don't own any blue jeans pumilio. Lets stick to the thread topic shall we?


Gotcha. I assumed your statement was a blanket statement for the frogs in the hobby. The topic is pretty far from the orignal post, btw. No need to get all indignant.


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## puckplaya32

"I have been seeing a lot of blue jeans for sale lately and am wondering how many people must be having luck with them that there are so many around. I'm even seeing them getting cheaper, not by much but a lot cheaper than they were like 6 months ago. So what is going on with these guys? Does anybody think their price will drop like the veraderos did?" 

Is it really that far off the original post? He asked where all the BJ's recently came from and whats going on with them, and well he got an answer they came from laundered EU imports


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## Philsuma

puckplaya32 said:


> Is it really that far off the original post? He asked where all the BJ's recently came from and whats going on with them, and well he got an answer they came from laundered EU imports


The thread is still on target....

Even the EU stuff should have paperwork behind it. The EU stuff coming out of the Baltimore MD - I've seen that paperwork with my own eyes.


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## skylsdale

In all fairness, the existence of actual "farms" or "ranches" being the source of these frogs is just as dubious as their country of origin or CB status. Just because it may say that on the papers doesn't necessarily make it credible, IMO at least. Even regarding country of origin: Ed explained that loophole quite well.

As was said earlier in the thread, it seems as though the European hobby has made some pretty serious husbandry advances in order to be exporting so many adult, CB obligate egg feeders.


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## DCreptiles

Where they came from? he should just asked where everyone got theirs from and go straight to the source and ask them him self. i mean we all know where the frogs came from and a lot of big names in the hobby purchased them along with some new hobbyist because they are a rare frog and become available at a great price. the topic is starting to turn from where they came from to where they came from AND WAS IT LEGAL. i believe he asked if they were mass bred or just imported and to answer your question they are wild caught and imported. not one person had a high production rate from them.

and as for the other question that was asked. no i personally dont ask if the frogs im currently purchasing were legally braught in or if they were smuggled or what not. i just see frogs posted for sale on DB or at local meets and i purchase them.. i would safely assume its up to the mods on DB to question any foul play, or the host of the meets. but then again im just a small collector/breeder in this hobby and i just go with the flow of the people i mentor in this hobby and try my best to follow the good practice they do.

as far for Phils statement i wouldnt think someone would bring paper work for frogs they legally braught in to a meet because A) they wouldnt sell any if they werent a trusted name in the hobby and B) 9 out of the 10 people i have spoke to about this said " it doesnt matter if it was braught in legally or not because right now the frogs are in front of you, whats done is done, why not purchase a nice healthy frog you will not be able to purchase again in the near future, ESPECIALLY at this PRICE. just a quote from a well known and respected name in the hobby.

just something for everyone to think about. im not here picking any debates or putting anyone down or defending any wrong doing. just adding my opinion and what i have heard first hand from peoples mouths about this specific issue.


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## jubjub47

DCreptiles said:


> Where they came from? he should just asked where everyone got theirs from and go straight to the source and ask them him self. i mean we all know where the frogs came from and a lot of big names in the hobby purchased them along with some new hobbyist because they are a rare frog and become available at a great price. the topic is starting to turn from where they came from to where they came from AND WAS IT LEGAL. i believe he asked if they were mass bred or just imported and to answer your question they are wild caught and imported. not one person had a high production rate from them.
> 
> and as for the other question that was asked. no i personally dont ask if the frogs im currently purchasing were legally braught in or if they were smuggled or what not. i just see frogs posted for sale on DB or at local meets and i purchase them.. i would safely assume its up to the mods on DB to question any foul play, or the host of the meets. but then again im just a small collector/breeder in this hobby and i just go with the flow of the people i mentor in this hobby and try my best to follow the good practice they do.
> 
> as far for Phils statement i wouldnt think someone would bring paper work for frogs they legally braught in to a meet because A) they wouldnt sell any if they werent a trusted name in the hobby and B) 9 out of the 10 people i have spoke to about this said " it doesnt matter if it was braught in legally or not because right now the frogs are in front of you, whats done is done, why not purchase a nice healthy frog you will not be able to purchase again in the near future, ESPECIALLY at this PRICE. just a quote from a well known and respected name in the hobby.
> 
> just something for everyone to think about. im not here picking any debates or putting anyone down or defending any wrong doing. just adding my opinion and what i have heard first hand from peoples mouths about this specific issue.


I don't know the legalities of the frogs in question, but would like to say that ignorance does not make purchasing questionable animals ok. People in this hobby, especially the people that deal in high end and rare animals, know that most responsible hobbyist do want to see paperwork on animals of this nature. Because others are doing something doesn't make it right for you, especially if there are suspicions on the legitimacy of the animals in question. I'm sure that many well respected hobbyist keep illegal and questionable animals behind closed doors. I'm not naive, but with frogs of this particular reputation, I would want to know with certainty that my animals were indeed legit to keep.


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## afterdark

This is off topic, but I can't resist...sorry Phil...

Derek,

I don't know if your post was intended to stir things up, but I feel you're expressing a short sighted and very irresponsible view of the hobby. 

What you're saying is that you purchase WC or even smuggled frogs simply because you're "going with the flow of people you mentor in the hobby". Being ignorant of the rules does not make them not apply to you. Just because it is in front of you, does not mean you have to buy it. Save your cash for CB frogs. Etc etc etc.

The only way to stem the tide of WC frogs coming into the hobby is to refuse to buy them on an individual basis. If they sit and don't sell at the warehouse, the importers will simply stop bringing them in. Supply and demand. This is not the first time this approach has been suggested here on this forum.

If we want to see a sustainable, long-term future for both the frogs themselves and the hobby as a whole, I think we all have to get behind this idea. If not, we're just repeating a cycle that ends when the frogs are no longer present in their natural habitat.


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## Philsuma

Nope....you are still _on topic_, Mike. No worries.

This particular morph and all of it's related issues, needs a good "air-ing out"......it really does.


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## puckplaya32

DCreptiles said:


> and as for the other question that was asked. no i personally dont ask if the frogs im currently purchasing were legally braught in or if they were smuggled or what not. i just see frogs posted for sale on DB or at local meets and i purchase them.. i would safely assume its up to the mods on DB to question any foul play, or the host of the meets. but then again im just a small collector/breeder in this hobby and i just go with the flow of the people i mentor in this hobby and try my best to follow the good practice they do.
> 
> as far for Phils statement i wouldnt think someone would bring paper work for frogs they legally braught in to a meet because A) they wouldnt sell any if they werent a trusted name in the hobby and B) 9 out of the 10 people i have spoke to about this said " it doesnt matter if it was braught in legally or not because right now the frogs are in front of you, whats done is done, why not purchase a nice healthy frog you will not be able to purchase again in the near future, ESPECIALLY at this PRICE. just a quote from a well known and respected name in the hobby.


Thoughts like "whats done is done" and "..you will not be able to purchase again in the near future, ESPECIALLY at this PRICE" are absolutely the wrong way to go about smuggled frogs. It only perpetuates the situation, and encourages the smugglers to go back and have another go at it. This can eventually lead to some of these rare species becoming extinct in their natural habitat. And just cause these animals left EU with legal paper work does not mean they left their native countries with legal paperwork, just as some many of the frogs currently in the hobby have.


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## JeremyHuff

DCreptiles said:


> 9 out of the 10 people i have spoke to about this said " it doesnt matter if it was braught in legally or not because right now the frogs are in front of you, whats done is done, why not purchase a nice healthy frog you will not be able to purchase again in the near future, ESPECIALLY at this PRICE. just a quote from a well known and respected name in the hobby.


What if it was a bag of rhino horns or blood diamonds sitting in front of you? Doesn't make it OK to buy. Also, the ones I saw, didn't look that healthy...


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## jfehr232

lol....poor derek.


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## Tony

Ed said:


> Isn't Nicaragua closed as well?...


I don't know their policy on Dendrobatids, but I do see Nicaraguan _A. callidryas_ available on a regular basis.


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## Ed

Tony said:


> I don't know their policy on Dendrobatids, but I do see Nicaraguan _A. callidryas_ available on a regular basis.


I've seen advertisements for Nicaruaguan red eyes as well but I haven't seen any supporting information that they are currently being exported from there (particularly in light of the recent listing as CITES II).. Keep in mind that this is again a species with a multicountry range along with a polymorphic pattern as well. I haven't seen it published as of yet but there was at least at one time speculation, that A. callidryas consists of at least two species. 

Ed


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## DCreptiles

first off i was not posting to stir anything up i was simply stating my point of view and just because i think one way and you guys think another does not make me any less educated then you. in this hobby there is 100 ways to do the same thing and everyone swares their way is the best. hence each person is different and has a difference in opinion... im guessing none of you read the bottom of my last post where i said i am not defending anytype of wrongful doing. im simply stating that we do not need to turn this into a witch hunt.. and im sure if every person who has purchased these blue jeans would chime in and say hey yeah i purchased them.. we would all be suprised of the big names that took part in this.. i wont call them out name by name but... they know who they are and should speak their mind about this..


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## thedude

it would be very unfortunate if these were smuggled. but either way if they are or arent people have them now and need to BREED THE CRAP OUT OF THEM! that way, maybe in the future they wont be a target for smugglers to get for "us"(as in the american hobby). as long as we establish them, they wont be worth the hassle.

im curious to know why everyone is selling theirs when they only got them in the past few months?? if they are starting to breed, why are people selling them? just to turn a profit?

as far as if they are true BJs...they are. ive seen a few in person now and they definitaly arent almirantes or mancreeks. as to the EXACT locality, it will never be known. they are destined to just be CR "blue jeans".

hopefully none of thats off topic.


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## flapjax3000

I saw an ad on Kingsnake selling BJ's for 80 dollars a frog. Thought that was pretty odd. I wonder where those pums are really from. Hopefully pums such as these will not make it into the breeding pool of the legitimate BJ's that are already here.


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## JoshK

DCreptiles said:


> first off i was not posting to stir anything up i was simply stating my point of view and just because i think one way and you guys think another does not make me any less educated then you. in this hobby there is 100 ways to do the same thing and everyone swares their way is the best. hence each person is different and has a difference in opinion... im guessing none of you read the bottom of my last post where i said i am not defending anytype of wrongful doing. im simply stating that we do not need to turn this into a witch hunt.. and im sure if every person who has purchased these blue jeans would chime in and say hey yeah i purchased them.. we would all be suprised of the big names that took part in this.. i wont call them out name by name but... they know who they are and should speak their mind about this..


 You are held responsible for others when you post for members you know aren't allowed to post here. You're most certainly stirring shit up now Derek and you're acting like a high school kid with this stuff.
Don't misunderstand, you know I like you but this is some high school BS.


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## DCreptiles

JeremyHuff said:


> What if it was a bag of rhino horns or blood diamonds sitting in front of you? Doesn't make it OK to buy. Also, the ones I saw, didn't look that healthy...


no what if's and we arent talking about rhino horns or blood diamonds we are talking about frogs. everyone wants to split hairs with wild caught or paper work or farm raised and what not.. just because people go out into the forest and put a fence up and call it farm raised doesnt make it ok. im big into high end rare animals may not be much into the frog hobby yet but i did come into this hobby from the reptile hobby and i NEVER purchased animals with out paper work because everything was available, may have been pricey but always legit. all im saying is if you want to start a witch hunt then write to the source your self. i look at it this way leave the topic alone and if you dont want to buy dont but dont throw stones at people that do. me personally i wouldnt spend that kind of cash on frogs that are hard to breed. i keep a very simple collection.


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## DCreptiles

JoshK said:


> You are held responsible for others when you post for members you know aren't allowed to post here. You're most certainly stirring shit up now Derek and you're acting like a high school kid with this stuff.
> Don't misunderstand, you know I like you but this is some high school BS.



again i dont know who is allowed and not allowed to post here i dont ask about peoples resumes on what sites their allowed or not allowed on. im nice and respectful to everyone i meet and i call it like i see it and i stick by my opinion and thats it. i like you to and im cool with most of you on here and i would hate to let a difference of opinion ruin that. and your half right im not acting like a high school kid but this is high school bs. and we shouldnt let a debate among professionals sharing the same hobbie make each other enamys. with that being said i hope i didnt personally offend anyway and if i did i do apologize. im just throwing my opinion out there.


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## Tony

Ed said:


> I've seen advertisements for Nicaruaguan red eyes as well but I haven't seen any supporting information that they are currently being exported from there (particularly in light of the recent listing as CITES II).. Keep in mind that this is again a species with a multicountry range along with a polymorphic pattern as well. I haven't seen it published as of yet but there was at least at one time speculation, that A. callidryas consists of at least two species.
> 
> Ed


Any idea where they are from then? To the best of my knowledge that particular morph ranges from Nicaragua through Costa Rica on the Caribbean side, and the populations to the north and south of that range are very distinctive (Orange sided frogs in Honduras and Maroon eyed frogs in Panama).


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## skylsdale

thedude said:


> but either way if they are or arent people have them now and need to BREED THE CRAP OUT OF THEM! that way, maybe in the future they wont be a target for smugglers to get for "us"(as in the american hobby). as long as we establish them, they wont be worth the hassle.


We have yet to, as a hobby, establish a single Dendrobatid species in captivity. 



> im curious to know why everyone is selling theirs when they only got them in the past few months?? if they are starting to breed, why are people selling them? just to turn a profit?


Most likely. Sell while the selling is hot and people are wanting them and willing to pay for them, the initial wave of F1's haven't been released (each wave of CB frogs selling at a slightly lower price), etc.


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## Ed

Tony said:


> Any idea where they are from then? To the best of my knowledge that particular morph ranges from Nicaragua through Costa Rica on the Caribbean side, and the populations to the north and south of that range are very distinctive (Orange sided frogs in Honduras and Maroon eyed frogs in Panama).


No, but then I haven't bothered to dig into it. That color variation has been in the pet trade for a long time.. (for example it is the standard version bred in Zoos since Nicaragua was last open in the late 1980s...) If they are coming in out of Nicaragua, then they are probably coming in with the fish shipments as other herps species commonly seen when Nicaragua exports animals haven't been showing up. I have a hard time thinking that exporting only red eyes is going to be profitable enough to support it given the relatively low retail price as well as having to go through the CITES requirements. 

Ed


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## Woodsman

This thread makes it REALLY clear why we shouldn't be putting our money in the hands of men that will only go out and do more harm with the money we gave them.

This is a matter of PERSONAL responsibility. I acquire my frogs from the person that bred them themselves. I can better keep track of the frog's lineage and contribute to the success of captive breeding as a whole. Captive breeding IS conservation.

There are men here that will sell their "farm raised" mothers for cash. I fear for their souls.

I'm not just being pious. I am right. Richard.


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## james67

skylsdale said:


> We have yet to, as a hobby, establish a single Dendrobatid species in captivity.


what criteria would you suggest for your statement of "establish"? i think there are a few that are established quite well. some tinc morphs come to mind. although there are the occasional WC shipments i think that the majority of some morphs have been around for some time. i know of a few people who are working with azures that go back to the original shipments both to the zoos and to the private sector. thats about 20 years of captive breeding, is this not "established" theres certainly no shortage of these animals and CB specimens seem more common (at least through these channels / not local pet shops)



flapjax3000 said:


> I saw an ad on Kingsnake selling BJ's for 80 dollars a frog. Thought that was pretty odd. I wonder where those pums are really from. Hopefully pums such as these will not make it into the breeding pool of the legitimate BJ's that are already here.


these are definitely fake, most likely they are man creek or almirante. i would hope that people can see through the $80 BJ bs. 

james


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## ChrisK

A little off topic but not much more than some others on here, but just out of curiosity since I remember hearing it but I could totally be wrong, aren't all Brazilian and Venezuelan frogs of smuggled origin? If so, anyone with cb or wc leucs, galacts, byh's etc would be as guilty as anyone of supporting smuggling, but as I said before I'm not totally sure about the accuracy of the Brazilian and Venezuelan frogs legality


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## puckplaya32

I agree with richard that we should only be purchasing animals with known lineages, rather than these suspicious imports that only take a little research to discover they are not legit. Hence the reason I never purchased any animals from damian and now never will whether it be legit or not, after his BS accusations. People should refuse to buy these laundered BJ's to aid in slowing/stopping demand in the US for smuggled animals, do their time in hobby, and track down animals from legitimate sources, and with any persistance get their chance.


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## DCreptiles

ChrisK said:


> A little off topic but not much more than some others on here, but just out of curiosity since I remember hearing it but I could totally be wrong, aren't all Brazilian and Venezuelan frogs of smuggled origin? If so, anyone with cb or wc leucs, galacts, byh's etc would be as guilty as anyone of supporting smuggling, but as I said before I'm not totally sure about the accuracy of the Brazilian and Venezuelan frogs legality



as far as i know thats 100% correct.


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## james67

also, and more on the topic. we are taking about a frog which is widely distributed and common throughout its range, while i generally have a distaste for EU "legal" frogs (histos/ sylvatica, mystis, atepolis, etc, etc) in this case if the CR govt and the usf&w dont come forward i dont see the issue. its not a shipment of lehmanii were talking about, these are common frogs, which some people report are in such great densities you almost have to watch your step so as not to step on them. im not blatantly condoning these accusations, but i cant say that in this case i really see the end of this morph or even a small dent from these shipments. and hopefully they will make it into the hands of responsible and knowledgeable keepers who as another poster suggested could make a new attempt at getting captive breeding going instead of these shipments being shunned and the frogs falling into the hands of inexperienced keepers like happened in the 90's (although there are other reasons they havent made it as outlined in countless other threads.

james


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## Ed

james67 said:


> what criteria would you suggest for your statement of "establish"? i think there are a few that are established quite well. some tinc morphs come to mind. although there are the occasional WC shipments i think that the majority of some morphs have been around for some time. i know of a few people who are working with azures that go back to the original shipments both to the zoos and to the private sector. thats about 20 years of captive breeding, is this not "established" theres certainly no shortage of these animals and CB specimens seem more common (at least through these channels / not local pet shops)


How does this constitute established? What guarantees have been taken to prevent those frogs from becoming extirpated based on a popularity cycle? 
You are aware that the US Zoos divested themselves from the original imports of azureus due to the very small founding population? (seven animals if I remember correctly). 

Ed


----------



## james67

i was also asking what constitutes "established"

james

edit: i think there are a few morphs that are less suceptable to market changes due to their ease of care and attractive qualities.


----------



## ChrisK

DCreptiles said:


> as far as i know thats 100% correct.


Anyone else?


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> also, and more on the topic. we are taking about a frog which is widely distributed and common throughout its range, while i generally have a distaste for EU "legal" frogs (histos/ sylvatica, mystis, atepolis, etc, etc) in this case if the CR govt and the usf&w dont come forward i dont see the issue. its not a shipment of lehmanii were talking about, these are common frogs, which some people report are in such great densities you almost have to watch your step so as not to step on them. im not blatantly condoning these accusations, but i cant say that in this case i really see the end of this morph or even a small dent from these shipments. and hopefully they will make it into the hands of responsible and knowledgeable keepers who as another poster suggested could make a new attempt at getting captive breeding going instead of these shipments being shunned and the frogs falling into the hands of inexperienced keepers like happened in the 90's (although there are other reasons they havent made it as outlined in countless other threads.
> 
> james


When arguing that this will in the long run help the captive populations, you may want to review http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf
Depending on the distance to the original population outcrossing those frogs to the ones in captivity could cause the effective extinction of the frogs within 1-3 generations. The problem is that you won't know if there is a problem until at it shows up and if it is 2-3 generations into the process, it will probably be too late to save the captive population. 

With respect to USF&W and/or CR doing anything about the process... if you think that is a problem how about having a dialog with the respective CR authorities about it? I know that they take a very strong interest in any potential smuggling cases (and I know of one researcher who had to stop keeping CR frogs privately as they were going to deny him permits if he continued to deal with the hobby). 

When did mysteriosus become very common in the wild? 

Ed


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> i was also asking what constitutes "established"
> 
> james
> 
> edit: i think there are a few morphs that are less suceptable to market changes due to their ease of care and attractive qualities.


While I have not verified it, I have heard from a couple of people that some lines of azureus in the EU were having problems with reproductive viability that did not appear to be based on nutrition... 

Ed


----------



## puckplaya32

The brazilian frogs are as far as I know completely of illegitimate origins, the only ones that legally left the country were the castis to institutions but were not permited to be released to the public. All the galacs were smuggled into EU and than shipper over to the US. 

I cant speak for the frogs from venezuela.


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> Anyone else?


It depends on the species.. some of the Brazilian species were exported to EU Zoos and cb offspring were legally released to the pet trade. In other cases, confiscated animals were bred and released to the pet trade and in other cases, it appears animals were laundered through the EU. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

puckplaya32 said:


> The brazilian frogs are as far as I know completely of illegitimate origins, the only ones that legally left the country were the castis to institutions but were not permited to be released to the public. All the galacs were smuggled into EU and than shipper over to the US.
> 
> I cant speak for the frogs from venezuela.


Actually the castinoticus were not permitted to be released to other institutions. That was a violation of thier scientific research import permit as well as the agreement for export from Brazil. 

Ed


----------



## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> The brazilian frogs are as far as I know completely of illegitimate origins, the only ones that legally left the country were the castis to institutions but were not permited to be released to the public. All the galacs were smuggled into EU and than shipper over to the US.
> 
> I cant speak for the frogs from venezuela.


Soooooooooo....

anyone who owns any Brazilian frog is guilty of supporting smuggling, and possibly any Venezuelan frog - correct people?


----------



## james67

Ed said:


> When arguing that this will in the long run help the captive populations, you may want to review http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf
> Depending on the distance to the original population outcrossing those frogs to the ones in captivity could cause the effective extinction of the frogs within 1-3 generations. The problem is that you won't know if there is a problem until at it shows up and if it is 2-3 generations into the process, it will probably be too late to save the captive population.


i am most definitely not suggesting that a recent import (more than 10 years after the last one) should be mixed with the current populations in captivity.



Ed said:


> With respect to USF&W and/or CR doing anything about the process... if you think that is a problem how about having a dialog with the respective CR authorities about it? I know that they take a very strong interest in any potential smuggling cases (and I know of one researcher who had to stop keeping CR frogs privately as they were going to deny him permits if he continued to deal with the hobby).


i have also heard about this (i assume your talking about the grannies) and im not suggesting that we should all turn a blind eye, but in this case i dont think anyone has heard from CR officials on this subject thus we can not assume that this is something they are pursuing.



Ed said:


> When did mysteriosus become very common in the wild?
> 
> Ed


i was saying that i have a distaste for these since they are far less common than the BJs are (histos/ salvatica obviously some morphs are more common than others)

james


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> i am most definitely not suggesting that a recent import (more than 10 years after the last one) should be mixed with the current populations in captivity.


This was to be part of the entire discussion in case anyone was considering that this was needed to bolster the genetic diversity... 



james67 said:


> i have also heard about this (i assume your talking about the grannies) and im not suggesting that we should all turn a blind eye, but in this case i dont think anyone has heard from CR officials on this subject thus we can not assume that this is something they are pursuing.


Actually I was referring to different one involving pumilio, the granuliferous had slipped my mind. One has to consider the turn around time on shipments may occur much more rapidly than a agency can catch and address. In any case, any comment by CR would probably be on the level of goverment to goverment and not to the hobby unless one contacted and asked them. How about contacting Brian Kubicki? 

Ed


----------



## james67

i actually did about a month ago asking just what he is planning on working with UE to bring in, other than the lemurs and glass frogs, and to ask about volunteer opportunities. but have yet to hear back.

james


----------



## Tony

Ed said:


> No, but then I haven't bothered to dig into it. That color variation has been in the pet trade for a long time.. (for example it is the standard version bred in Zoos since Nicaragua was last open in the late 1980s...)


I had a pair of wild caught CR callidryas in the mid 90s, and one difference I have noticed is that they would turn very dark at night, more purple than green. My current "Nicaraguan" group does not darken significantly. I don't know if that is indicative of them belonging to another population, but it is the only difference that I can think of between my old pair and new group.


----------



## puckplaya32

Ed,
I never heard of any of the brazilian frogs being released from EU zoos legally, and i think the confiscated frogs you speak of are the vanzos. So i stand corrected on the vanzos, should you be able to prove your animals were from Divoseen than they d be legal. Even though they never left brazil legally? Correct? Which species were released from zoos legally?


----------



## Ed

puckplaya32 said:


> Ed,
> I never heard of any of the brazilian frogs being released from EU zoos legally, and i think the confiscated frogs you speak of are the vanzos. So i stand corrected on the vanzos, should you be able to prove your animals were from Divoseen than they d be legal. Even though they never left brazil legally? Correct? Which species were released from zoos legally?


How long are you going back in time? Keep in mind that a number of those species originated in captivity in the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s.... 

Ed


----------



## james67

ChrisK said:


> Soooooooooo....
> 
> anyone who owns any Brazilian frog is guilty of supporting smuggling, and possibly any Venezuelan frog - correct people?


yup! nearly all from my understanding.

hmmmmm. but i guess its different when someone is talking about frogs that they're not working with, or possibly its easier to disassociate oneself from an import that happened before they were keeping darts.

james


----------



## Ed

Tony said:


> I had a pair of wild caught CR callidryas in the mid 90s, and one difference I have noticed is that they would turn very dark at night, more purple than green. My current "Nicaraguan" group does not darken significantly. I don't know if that is indicative of them belonging to another population, but it is the only difference that I can think of between my old pair and new group.


The color variations can be due to differences in individuals as well as in part enviromental. I've worked groups (groups of 10-20 at a time) of CR red eyes in a zoo and noticed that there were individual variations in the population at night that included that intense of a color. 

Ed


----------



## puckplaya32

The quins are the only brazilian species i am aware of that have been imported under quinquevittatus in the past, as well as many other non brazilian species under that name. Please feel free to correct me as I ve only been in the hobby for six years, and i am sure much of this pre-dates me. Which other brazilian frogs were imported to EU zoos?


----------



## Tony

Ed said:


> The color variations can be due to differences in individuals as well as in part enviromental. I've worked groups (groups of 10-20 at a time) of CR red eyes in a zoo and noticed that there were individual variations in the population at night that included that intense of a color.
> 
> Ed


Do you know if there are any Costa Ricans left in the hobby, or have they all disappeared into the generic pet trade "morph"?


----------



## ChrisK

james67 said:


> yup! nearly all from my understanding.
> 
> hmmmmm. but i guess its different when someone is talking about frogs that they're not working with, or possibly its easier to disassociate oneself from an import that happened before they were keeping darts.
> 
> james



Sooooooooooooo.........

anyone who owns any Brazilian or Venezuelan frogs and is pointing fingers should probably _ _ _ _ - _ _ _ - _ _ _ _ -_ _?


----------



## frogandtoad

Hey everybody, I don't mean to get this thread off topic but isn't Colombia shut off from frog exports???

Apparently this company is exporting frogs to Germany.
Colombia taps biodiversity to export exotic creatures


----------



## Ed

I was going to try and tease some of it out, but I'm too tired at this point. One of the things that makes it a little more difficult to tease out the species exported to EU Zoos is the fact that Dendrobates have been kept in captivity since before CITES and requirements for documentation and we know that a number of species were kept in captivity in the 1970s and potentially much earlier than that.. (possibly as before the 1960s). 

Ed


----------



## Ed

frogandtoad said:


> Hey everybody, I don't mean to get this thread off topic but isn't Colombia shut off from frog exports???
> 
> Apparently this company is exporting frogs to Germany.
> Colombia taps biodiversity to export exotic creatures


They mentioned that they intend to sell frogs but unlike the other products, they didn't mention selling them. Columbia prohibits the export of any vertebrates other than fish, and farmed iguanas and boas. Now this is always subject to change.. 

Ed


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## puckplaya32

So were not going to get an easy answer Ed? lol


----------



## Brien

I agree with chrisk on this one


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## jeffr

Ed said:


> They mentioned that they intend to sell frogs but unlike the other products, they didn't mention selling them. Columbia prohibits the export of any vertebrates other than fish, and farmed iguanas and boas. Now this is always subject to change..
> 
> Ed


So then how did terribilis get here??


----------



## james67

Columbia wasnt always shut off, there used to be shipments of everything from lehmanni, to histos and sylvatica, some of which were very cheap.

james


----------



## Ed

jeffr said:


> So then how did terribilis get here??


Through Europe. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

puckplaya32 said:


> So were not going to get an easy answer Ed? lol


No... not unless someone wants to go and do a historical search in ISIS on each individual species (something I do not have time to do..). Alternatively one could dig out the old BDG newsletters and go through the classfieds... (also something I don't have time to do...) 
Off the top of my head at this second.. historically terriblis, and at least some color variations of galactanotus. Some of these were imported into the USA with tropical fish in the 1990s.. 

Ed


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## jeffr

Ed said:


> Through Europe.
> 
> Ed


I thought I read that somewhere. So did they come from Europe the same way these frogs are coming from Europe??


----------



## Ed

jeffr said:


> I thought I read that somewhere. So did they come from Europe the same way these frogs are coming from Europe??


I'm not sure what you mean by the "same way" as there are several paths involving frogs from Europe 
1) legal import/export
2) legal export of cb frogs from frogs that were illegally exported, then confiscated and either released directly to the hobby or released to Zoos and then to the hobby
3) frogs that have been passed through various channels resulting in paperwork for frogs that were not legally exported or imported into the EU. 

From what I can remember off-hand terriblis should be in category number 2, and if I remember correctly, some of the original imports were conducted through the tropical fish trade between the EU and the US. 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

I don`t think histos and sylvaticus are common in their range. AS a matter of fact I`ve heard there are not that many hopping around the forest as there used to be.
Also as for BYH and the likes, they did come in legally from EU. Back then we weren`t very sure what was legal and what wasn`t. Personally I was told the shipment I brought in was all cb frogs from EU and found out later I was lied to about the origin of some/most of the frogs. There were no legal companies trying to export darts other than exporters from the country of origin. Things have changed a lot. We now have a company working w/ the export of animals from panama, w/ the governments approval and testing treating and acclimating of them. We also have another company working legally w/ Peru. There are alternatives to Columbian, Ecuadorian and other countries frogs that were recently smuggled. There are almost too many legal morphs to work w/ and more countries being in the works. Everyone wants to get a one up on the legal companies and work w/ them while they can still make tons o` money on them BEFORE they are brought in thru legal channels. Truth is the smugglers don`t like the competition. Word to the wise is look out for hi priced illegal frogs as their price may come way down before you can openly(without any worries) sell offspring.



james67 said:


> also, and more on the topic. we are taking about a frog which is widely distributed and common throughout its range, while i generally have a distaste for EU "legal" frogs (histos/ sylvatica, mystis, atepolis, etc, etc) in this case if the CR govt and the usf&w dont come forward i dont see the issue. its not a shipment of lehmanii were talking about, these are common frogs, which some people report are in such great densities you almost have to watch your step so as not to step on them. im not blatantly condoning these accusations, but i cant say that in this case i really see the end of this morph or even a small dent from these shipments. and hopefully they will make it into the hands of responsible and knowledgeable keepers who as another poster suggested could make a new attempt at getting captive breeding going instead of these shipments being shunned and the frogs falling into the hands of inexperienced keepers like happened in the 90's (although there are other reasons they havent made it as outlined in countless other threads.
> 
> james


----------



## Julio

wow, this thread has gotten a little out of control, on another note have terribilis ever been legally exported? and i am sure Azureus one of the most popular morph was never legally collected for the animal trade.


----------



## Roadrunner

Terribilis were around pre cites, I believe. Azureus were brought in for the baltimore aquarium and were released to the pet trade, so the adults were legally brought in for an institution. I don`t know that surinam retained ownership of the adults and their offspring. 
We`re talking about a different time here. Back then we just wanted to get them and breed them so they`d be around since there were no companies opening up countries by working directly w/ the governments. Now we have progressed enough that other countries will follow. There are a # of projects in the works right now w/ a # of different companies/individuals. Everything that will eventually come in legally is "in the works". Smuggling projects are now in their last push to try and beat out the people working to do all this right. 



Julio said:


> wow, this thread has gotten a little out of control, on another note have terribilis ever been legally exported? and i am sure Azureus one of the most popular morph was never legally collected for the animal trade.


----------



## brooklyndartfrogs

frogfarm said:


> Now we have progressed enough that other countries will follow. There are a # of projects in the works right now w/ a # of different companies/individuals. Everything that will eventually come in legally is "in the works". Smuggling projects are now in their last push to try and beat out the people working to do all this right.


Finally!
Andy


----------



## Philsuma

to try to bring this thread back around, full circle....

the question was asked:

"Why are there so many blue jean pumilio coming into the hobby and do you think the price will go down" ?

I tried to answer his question to the best of my ability. I did not name names. I did not accuse any particular person, as per the rules of this forum. Again....a question was asked.

This is a hobby that contains conservation elements and everyone forms opinions, some quite strong. Some issues are not so black and white and some of the senior hobbyists have a "do as I say, not as I do" mentality and even that policy is neither right or wrong.

There are people lining up and taking sides in this thread and most of us will meet in Jason's house in Jersey where we can certainly talk things out if people wish. I think a lot of you have met me in person and would agree that I have no problem talking to anyone about anything.


----------



## rmelancon

So I'll take the other side since all of this is mostly speculation anyway. I have Blue Jeans from a very long time ago and know several who do a lot of work with these guys. When set up right they can produce a good number of offspring. Working with 3 pairs we could produce in two years roughly 60 animals give or take. Knowing that the Americans pay huge premiums for these animals I am going to save all of my offspring to send to America for a big pay day. I rarely sell CB pumilio that are younger than 8-10 months so everything I send is going to be adult size. If I lived in Europe and had contacts in America this is what I would do.

It's all speculation but is not at all out of the question. It is interesting how everyone is so jaded on these topics.


----------



## Philsuma

rmelancon said:


> It's all speculation but is not at all out of the question. It is interesting how everyone is so jaded on these topics.


Jaded is the wrong word to use. Passionate is better. 

We all make choices in life. We can also choose our given attitudes every single day when we wake up. How we choose to live is up to each one of us.

We can also choose to post or not to post. We can invite strangers into our houses. We can devote enormous effort, time, money and resourses towards charity or conservaton. Or we could choose to devote nothing. We can pass on years of experience to others or we could be silent, hoping that others will do so.

I'm glad questions were asked and that people posted opinions. What's the alternative? No questions, no forum, no information, no opinions, turn a blind eye, don't care?.....

Wouldn't that suck?


----------



## rmelancon

Philsuma said:


> Jaded is the wrong word to use. Passionate is better.
> 
> We all make choices in life. We can also choose our given attitudes every single day when we wake up. How we choose to live is up to each one of us.
> 
> We can also choose to post or not to post. We can invite strangers into our houses. We can devote enormous effort, time, money and resourses towards charity or conservaton. Or we could choose to devote nothing. We can pass on years of experience to others or we could be silent, hoping that others will do so.
> 
> I'm glad questions were asked and that people posted opinions. What's the alternative? No questions, no forum, no information, no opinions, turn a blind eye, don't care?.....
> 
> Wouldn't that suck?


No, I'm going to stick with jaded, maybe passionately jaded, but in my opinion, jaded, and maybe rightly so.

The people who choose not to post do so for many reasons and this does not mean they are turning a blind eye and don't care. Nor does it mean they are not passing on their experience, just not on an internet forum. It's fine that people ask questions and post opinions, I'm doing it right now. I just like to point out the amount of speculation that flies around animals being exported out of europe and south america. Every time I post though, I am reminded of why most of the time I choose not to.


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Terribilis were around pre cites, I believe.



Weren't all Dendrobates, Phyllobates etc included in CITES in 1994? I thought terriblis didn't come onto the scene until a few years later and into the US at the end of the 1990s..



frogfarm said:


> Azureus were brought in for the baltimore aquarium and were released to the pet trade, so the adults were legally brought in for an institution. I don`t know that surinam retained ownership of the adults and their offspring.


Surinam did not retain ownership of the original imports (which was less than 10 animals (I think 7 animals). Subsequent to that there was a recommendation to no longer breed or hold those frogs or thier offspring due to insufficient genetic management and a second larger group was imported from Suriname and handled with a population management plan. The second importation was never released to the hobby. 





frogfarm said:


> Smuggling projects are now in their last push to try and beat out the people working to do all this right.


Given that according to Traffic (CITES enforcement) D. auratus is one of the most commonly seized (by numbers) dendrobatid, large importations of legal auratus don't seem to have put much of dent in the attempts to smuggle them.... 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

I`m not sure, I got mine as 2 year old frogs in 97 and I think they were from the second import from Eu. That was a long time ago and the animals came in 2+ years before i entered the hobby. I`ll have to check my permits but I think my paperwork states that they were acquired pre-cites.

Aren`t auratus the most ubiquitos dart in the highest densities? For large operations of smuggling they would be the easiest to collect in #`s and the easiest to move #`s of because of the low price. If you did that w/ mystis or something there aren`t that many in the hobby and being produced to be able to get under the radar and the price of them would automatically drop as there aren`t that many people looking for $400+ frogs.
If the frogs are more of a commonality in nature they seem to be the least of worry in overcollecting and will always be smuggled no matter what the price drops to, how many we breed, etc.etc. Small populations of frogs that arent here and demand hi prices will eventually not be smuggled if they are harder to find and don`t command that hi of a price. Do you think the same people will go thru all the effort if they can`t find many, they are sensitive to keep alive and don`t give a good return?



Ed said:


> Weren't all Dendrobates, Phyllobates etc included in CITES in 1994? I thought terriblis didn't come onto the scene until a few years later and into the US at the end of the 1990s..
> 
> 
> 
> Surinam did not retain ownership of the original imports (which was less than 10 animals (I think 7 animals). Subsequent to that there was a recommendation to no longer breed or hold those frogs or thier offspring due to insufficient genetic management and a second larger group was imported from Suriname and handled with a population management plan. The second importation was never released to the hobby.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Given that according to Traffic (CITES enforcement) D. auratus is one of the most commonly seized (by numbers) dendrobatid, large importations of legal auratus don't seem to have put much of dent in the attempts to smuggle them....
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Small populations of frogs that arent here and demand hi prices will eventually not be smuggled if they are harder to find and don`t command that hi of a price. Do you think the same people will go thru all the effort if they can`t find many, they are sensitive to keep alive and don`t give a good return?


Hi Aaron,

One of the things to keep in mind is that the smuggler is often not the person who is usually the frogs. They are usually paying locals to collect them so the effort is the same at that point... one has to also keep in mind that it takes twenty $20 auratus to make the same profit margin for one $400 rare frog and (not having done it myself) it is probably harder to smuggle a larger number of frogs versus a smaller number... 

Ed


----------



## Roadrunner

My point exactly. When they aren`t $400 any more and it takes the locals a long time to find 20 frogs then the smugglers will probably not take the time to go and get the frogs from that town, esp if they usually don`t make it to sale because they are more sensitive to keep alive, they will stick w/ the easier to find frogs that they don`t have to walk a day thru the woods to go and get. The frogs that are rare in the wild and don`t produce many offspring won`t get the attention. These are the frogs that are in chance of being overcollected much moreso than auratus that seem to breed well and rebound well in the wild. If they are the most smuggled frog it leads me to believe they are in #`s much like the leopard and green frogs are here on my property. They could take a good amount of collecting here and still be quite abundant. There are definately differences in which frogs could be collected and in what #`s across the range of dart frogs. Frogs like terribilis that rear communally w/ very large clutch sizes would have much different repopulation lengths than thumbnails for the most part.



Ed said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> One of the things to keep in mind is that the smuggler is often not the person who is usually the frogs. They are usually paying locals to collect them so the effort is the same at that point... one has to also keep in mind that it takes twenty $20 auratus to make the same profit margin for one $400 rare frog and (not having done it myself) it is probably harder to smuggle a larger number of frogs versus a smaller number...
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

What we are really discussing here is recruitment levels and sustainable harvests. We are assuming that the differences in reproductive behaviors results in a difference in recruitment rates which allows for the populations to rebound. The problem is that we don't know if this is true or not.. the rate of recolonization of a locality could be due to animals that were in surrounding marginal areas (which would act as population sinks normally) that normally allow little to no successful recruitment can migrate back into the areas where collection has occured resulting in the appearance that the population has recovered when in reality a couple more collecting cycles would extirpate the population. The smugglers may simply be shifting locations on less valuable animals to prevent/hide any pattern of smuggling. 

It is pretty hard to compare native species (seasonal large clutch lek breeders with no parental care) with dendrobatids as the reproductive stratagies are very different and the recruitment rates can be very different. 

Ed


----------



## flapjax3000

Ed said:


> Given that according to Traffic (CITES enforcement) D. auratus is one of the most commonly seized (by numbers) dendrobatid, large importations of legal auratus don't seem to have put much of dent in the attempts to smuggle them....
> 
> Ed


This is not surprising at all. People are correlating levels of smuggling only with price and availability. Despite how expensive the frog may be, a person in need will sell anything for any price. Quotas fill fast and export papers are not granted to everyone who wants them. 

In 2009 the average Costa Rican salary was 6,900 US per year (Costa Rica (02/10)). They do quite a bit better than their neighbors partly due to tourism. Even if a local gets paid a quarter per smuggled frog they can quickly improve their standard of living. Auratus have larger numbers so therefore easier to find and capitalize on. 

So to answer the initial question of how BJ's are becoming so cheap it is a combination of factors. BJ's are becoming more readily available again due to smuggling, private breeding or selling look-alikes. One year ago they were harder to find in the US hobby creating a demand and high price. Sellers reacted to this by either concentrating on breeding more or smuggling more. The increased supply along with what seems a finite demand (most people do not want to spend 600/pair on frogs) have driven the price down. 

A question. Do legal import quotas consist of only those frogs that are actually shipped, or do they count what was initially harvested from the wild including loss?


----------



## skylsdale

frogfarm said:


> When they aren`t $400 any more and it takes the locals a long time to find 20 frogs then the smugglers will probably not take the time to go and get the frogs from that town, esp if they usually don`t make it to sale because they are more sensitive to keep alive, they will stick w/ the easier to find frogs that they don`t have to walk a day thru the woods to go and get. The frogs that are rare in the wild and don`t produce many offspring won`t get the attention. These are the frogs that are in chance of being overcollected much moreso than auratus that seem to breed well and rebound well in the wild.


My hunch is that these populations will become extirpated from overcollection sooner than their price significantly drops. This is currently happening with some histrionica populations in Colombia--frogs that people previously assumed to be safe from overcollection and smuggling due to their remote and somewhat dangerous collecting environments are currently thought to be almost completely gone. I agree with the logic of your theory, Aaron, that it should play out like that. However, the result assumes and depends on the population being large enough (or fecundity being high enough) to be able to sustain such collection until it wanes. (EDIT: After I posted this, I saw that Ed spoke more in-depth about this.)


----------



## Ed

flapjax3000 said:


> A question. Do legal import quotas consist of only those frogs that are actually shipped, or do they count what was initially harvested from the wild including loss?


Only those frogs actually shipped into a country (import). Export quotas are only the number of animals that leave the country. The only way prior mortality plays a part in it, is if there is a " take limit" (like a bag limit) that is enforced. 

Ed


----------



## flapjax3000

Ed said:


> Only those frogs actually shipped into a country (import). Export quotas are only the number of animals that leave the country. The only way prior mortality plays a part in it, is if there is a " take limit" (like a bag limit) that is enforced.
> 
> Ed


Oops, I meant to say export quotas. Wouldn't a take limit require the collector to purchase a permit? Such as a hunting license.


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## Jeff R

I agree with Robb, this is why I rarely post.
Jaded


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## deviousk

Okay Im a rookie in this hobby I dont even have any frogs yet. Im going to gets some after I have done my studying. My question is how do I find out which frogs are legal or illegal? 2. Lets say I find someone selling BJ's and I ask him to show me paper work that they are legal and he does. Now I buy a pair, breed them, try to sell them, how do I show proof that I got them legally?


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## james67

as a beginner you shouldnt worry too much about the frogs with questionable legalities as they are generally best suited for advanced hobbyists. by the time you are ready to care for an animal like that you will know what you need to (IMO).

james


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## Roadrunner

Ron and Ed, I agree. All we can do is keep working and hope for the best.


Ed said:


> What we are really discussing here is recruitment levels and sustainable harvests. We are assuming that the differences in reproductive behaviors results in a difference in recruitment rates which allows for the populations to rebound. The problem is that we don't know if this is true or not.. the rate of recolonization of a locality could be due to animals that were in surrounding marginal areas (which would act as population sinks normally) that normally allow little to no successful recruitment can migrate back into the areas where collection has occured resulting in the appearance that the population has recovered when in reality a couple more collecting cycles would extirpate the population. The smugglers may simply be shifting locations on less valuable animals to prevent/hide any pattern of smuggling.
> 
> It is pretty hard to compare native species (seasonal large clutch lek breeders with no parental care) with dendrobatids as the reproductive stratagies are very different and the recruitment rates can be very different.
> 
> Ed


----------



## deviousk

I would still like to know. Isn't that a part of learning? Im a very quick learner I have a reef tank for about 10 months now. Its my first ever reef tank and Ive achieved more than some other more experienced reefers.


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## james67

no offense but it has nothing to do with how fast a learner you are and much more to do with how long you have been and will continue to be in the hobby. buying some of these rare animals legal or otherwise, should IMO be left to those who have a long term commitment to the hobby. many of these frogs will be only be made available when others keeping them believe that you have achieved enough and have proven that you intend to continue and have made a long term investment in the hobby. there is an incredible turnover in this hobby and quite unfortunately MANY MANY frogs are lost to keepers who are either inexperienced or who leave the hobby after a couple of years. and in the case of those with high mortality, poor breeding, and high price, its better left to those who have the experience to back it up.

again this is no disrespect but you certainly shouldnt be looking for BJs as a novice. this is what happened with the last import and it aided in reducing the numbers of frogs so significantly that until this new release there were very few and they were kept and traded by a very small number of individuals.

and it isnt as cut and dry as "this is how you tell they are legal" or "this is how you know they are illegal" what i intended to say is that by the time you are ready to get animals of that caliber you should have no problems (from your observations, conversations with other hobbyists, etc.) to make your own decision whether or not they are legitimate or something worth purchasing.

james


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## Roadrunner

Mostly speculation, correct. Some have telltale marks of abuse that cb usually wouldn`t have. Scratches, rubs etc. I`m pretty sure there are mixes of both being done.


rmelancon said:


> So I'll take the other side since all of this is mostly speculation anyway. I have Blue Jeans from a very long time ago and know several who do a lot of work with these guys. When set up right they can produce a good number of offspring. Working with 3 pairs we could produce in two years roughly 60 animals give or take. Knowing that the Americans pay huge premiums for these animals I am going to save all of my offspring to send to America for a big pay day. I rarely sell CB pumilio that are younger than 8-10 months so everything I send is going to be adult size. If I lived in Europe and had contacts in America this is what I would do.
> 
> It's all speculation but is not at all out of the question. It is interesting how everyone is so jaded on these topics.


----------



## Ed

deviousk said:


> I would still like to know. Isn't that a part of learning? Im a very quick learner I have a reef tank for about 10 months now. Its my first ever reef tank and Ive achieved more than some other more experienced reefers.


Here is a partial list Dendrobates.org - Smuggling 

Also there have been several threads discussing this issue. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ing-buying-new-frogs-check-out-blacklist.html is one example.. 

Ed


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## Woodsman

Hi Ed,

Thanks for the link to Dendrobates.org's smuggling page. I was considering working with Le Mont Fumee tinctorius, but will avoid them as they have been illegally smuggled from the wild. A pretty frog, but not worth the negative weight on my conscience.

Richard.



Ed said:


> Here is a partial list Dendrobates.org - Smuggling
> 
> Also there have been several threads discussing this issue.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ing-buying-new-frogs-check-out-blacklist.html is one example..
> 
> Ed


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## porkchop

*Deviousk*,
I dont have the answers you seek, BUT...
as you can see there are some great people here who will offer information for you to make your own intelligent decisions with.
And others who think its best to tell you what you can and cant do....
Do what you like, when you like. 
Its your Hobby if you choose! Welcome.

Sorry for the interuption, needed to say it.


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## kyle1745

Some quick points...

Clearly a lot of the witch hunting mentality in this thread with people jumping on the bandwagon with little to no facts.

Based on some experienced hobbyists comments its seems possible these could be CB and imported from Europe. Sure that does not identify their original origins but again no one has produced facts otherwise either.

Worth noting that this "lack of facts" is exactly why some of the more experienced people post so infrequently.

Its fine to discuss theories and ideas... as long as they are perceived and expressed as theories and ideas....


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## NathanB

We dont let "facts", or the lack of, get in the way of our self regard.


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## jon

bussardnr said:


> we dont let "facts", or the lack of, get in the way of our self regard.


.......


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## DCreptiles

bussardnr said:


> We dont let "facts", or the lack of, get in the way of our self regard.


when speaking of a issue like this there are 2 ways it can go. when speaking about theorys and such about the animals in question we only talk about the animals and the ideas and provide whatever facts we can about the topic.. but it slowly turned into indirect finger pointing and such which when you begin to point a finger you are now making claims about a person and now is when you would need facts. you say that you dont let facts or lack of get in the way of you "self regard". and its that type of way of thinking that leads to these witch hunts in this hobby.

not to bring up anything else but it seems that everytime someone screams witch everyone jumps on grabs their torches and joins the hunt. lets see not to long ago wasnt there a witch hunt over a certain someones cross breeds and everyone jumped on this witch hunt.. and now same thing.. witch hunt for whos selling what frogs and are they legit or not. if everyone is that curious or feels that strongly everyone here has a right to question the frogs they are purchasing. but if you are not making any transactions then why even get involved?


----------



## jubjub47

Derek, whether we plan on investing in these animals is irrelevant. Smuggling and importing of questionable animals affects this hobby as a whole. Sure, right now there are only certain frogs with issues, but what if our actions as a hobby lead to further restrictions and possible blanket laws on our ability to even own our animals. Responsible keeping, importing, exporting and awareness is our best path to keeping things in this hobby as open as we currently have them. I don't know whether these frogs are legit or not. I hope they are quite frankly. I do know that in my position in the hobby if I decide to work with a frog of this "reputation" I will only do so with breeders who can show me documentation on the animals. I'm sure that many don't care and just have to have them, but for the sake of our hobby I think it's important for people to try and be part of the solution and not the problem for once. 



DCreptiles said:


> when speaking of a issue like this there are 2 ways it can go. when speaking about theorys and such about the animals in question we only talk about the animals and the ideas and provide whatever facts we can about the topic.. but it slowly turned into indirect finger pointing and such which when you begin to point a finger you are now making claims about a person and now is when you would need facts. you say that you dont let facts or lack of get in the way of you "self regard". and its that type of way of thinking that leads to these witch hunts in this hobby.
> 
> not to bring up anything else but it seems that everytime someone screams witch everyone jumps on grabs their torches and joins the hunt. lets see not to long ago wasnt there a witch hunt over a certain someones cross breeds and everyone jumped on this witch hunt.. and now same thing.. witch hunt for whos selling what frogs and are they legit or not. if everyone is that curious or feels that strongly everyone here has a right to question the frogs they are purchasing. but if you are not making any transactions then why even get involved?


----------



## Philsuma

Derek,

I may be mistaken, but I think Nate's statement on "self regard" was a _pro_ statement to the blue jeans frogs issue. I thought it may be a Mark Twain quote, but I'm not sure.

Using the term "witch hunt" is pretty inflamatory, hysterical and way over the top in this case isn't it? We all have a chance to write, speak and opine, relative to anything on this forum. As the site owner pointed out, nobody was named or anything close. Most people do a good job of presenting viewpoints without any name calling or defamation. This forum is very helpful to the hobby in that regard.

Not everyone has the ability to directly question or visit with other members to ask questions. I'm sure the people on the left coast are reading this thread too but they have no ability to attend our local meets or shows to inquire further. We are left with threads and posts to express ideas, opinions and share information.

On Facts:

In a court of law the saying goes like this...It's not what I think or _know_ to be true, it's what I can prove, and you are right, it works both ways. For the prosecution as well as the defense. Actually it weighs more heavily on the prosecution as the defense is still entitled to be considered innocent until proven quilty in this country.


----------



## Roadrunner

phone, pm or email are all ways of asking someone in a forum what they know or mean and it occurs outside this thread/forum. People on the left coast can communicate this way too.


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## DCreptiles

i think there is a bit of confusion because im not here as for or agenst these blue jeans and im not here defending any 1 person. im here throwing my point of view out as a whole.. by no means am i justifying smuggling of any type in any hobby regaurdless to what is in question. what i am saying is it is unfair to hold a person responsible that did fairly purchase and legally import the frogs into the usa. where they came from befor that is very questionable but we cannot hold this person responsible for what other people do.. and yes you guys will say well if we dont purchase from the middle man between eu and usa then the guy in usa wont import from eu and the guys that may or may not doing the smuggling will give up on their efforts of bringing in smuggled frogs. in all reality its a losing battle because there will always be someone that says " F that those frogs are rare im getting them and its my choice wether to are not" and again im not saying that mentality is the correct way to look at it. and for nates comment i didnt mean what i said in a negative effect and i apologize if i sound snippy.

there will always be 2 sides to every difficult topic like this one. abortion, death penality, smuggled frogs can be added to the list of the taboo topics.

PHil your 100% correct about this forum and how it does a great job not naming names and slandering people ect.. and debates like this are good because a lot of people like you ed, chrisk, james, all bring great and valid points to the table and i always learn something new from everyone wether i agree with their views or points or not. 

again i have a very simple collection and i wouldnt consider it very "high end" but then again if i had cash to burn and space to spare i cant say i wouldnt purchase rare frogs from someone and chances are me personally i do quesiton where they come from but not in detail so if i say hey where these blue jeans come from. oh their eu imports oh ok cool. 

how many people here never purchased tickets for a sporting event or broadway show, theme parks and what not off a questionable source. anything besides ticket master would be considered questionable. how many of us purchase items off craigslist or ebay, do you guys all write the seller and say hey.. you didnt run out the store with this merchandise did you?
me being in loss pervention i can tell you that 90% of americans purchase stolen merchandise each day wether they know its hot or not. its just becomming the way of life.. again i dont condone it.. but its here.. what are we gonna do about it? in a perfect world.. my job wouldnt be needed.


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## kyle1745

Don't take my "witch hunting" comments for more than they are. In cases like this were this is a good open discussion I simply urge everyone to remember that it is simply just that... a open discussion. Many times what happens and I believe has happened a couple of times in this thread is that people make rather large assumptions, and others agree which begins to create a tone and then the witch hunt begins. So far this has been rather civil which is good.

I also want to say that its rather obvious most of us have a problem with smuggling, and support the sustainability of these animals in their natural habitat. With that said we are not USF&W, and if they let them in the country that is their responsibility to validate their origin.

They are here now and being sold to many, so lets educate people how to sustain these a little better than when they came in years ago.


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## Brien

Well said Kyle.


----------



## Woodsman

I have contacted US F&W here in New York City about the Blue Jean and Escudo Island Pumilios and the Sylvaticus that I now believe were illegally brought into the country. I will let the members here know what I find out.

Richard.


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## markpulawski

The Escudo's came out of country of origin with the proper permits, at least those that came through south Florida, the European imports I have no idea about. I would suggest trying to implicate frogs brought to the US through legal channels from Panama may open a can of worms better left untouched. 
European imports will always be open to speculation, however when a large number of adult animals show up that originate in closed countries it would be rediculous to not follow a logical progression.


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## james67

woodsman: was this an inquiry, or some self righteous whistle-blowing attempt?

james


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## DCreptiles

james67 said:


> woodsman: was this an inquiry, or some self righteous whistle-blowing attempt?
> 
> james



hmmm what do you think? hes going to be our knight in shinning armor.


----------



## Philsuma

james67 said:


> woodsman: was this an inquiry, or some self righteous whistle-blowing attempt?
> 
> james


 
A whistleblower is someone who is _Employed_ by the agency that they are reporting or informing on....

1. If those frogs are legal - no one has any worries.

2. If they are not, do you really think Richard is going to be the one that "cracks the big case" and provides them with the super secret info? The feds have a pretty good idea who is doing what already. Sometimes it takes years before people start getting indicted and "reeled" in.


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## james67

perhaps i should have chosen another word but "s_____" carries such a negative connotation that i refrained from using it.

james


----------



## DCreptiles

Philsuma said:


> A whistleblower is someone who is _Employed_ by the agency that they are reporting or informing on....
> 
> 1. If those frogs are legal - no one has any worries.
> 
> 2. If they are not, do you really think Richard is going to be the one that "cracks the big case" and provides them with the super secret info? The feds have a pretty good idea who is doing what already. Sometimes it takes years before people start getting indicted and "reeled" in.


again Phil valid point.. but if fish and wild life already deemed the frogs ok and gave the person their package who are any of us to question their call? and for one of us to take matters into our own hands, and stir the pot more then it should be ( only ) because they dont agree with the action is a very......... so many words come to mind but for the sake of the site...... not so nice move. i firmly believe you guys are taking this one step further then it needs to be and will create more harm then good for this hobby in more ways then one.

we are letting a disagreement turn personal and kyle expressed his feelings on this very clearly that WE SHOULD NOT let this become more then a discussion.


----------



## afterdark

james67 said:


> perhaps i should have chosen another word but "s_____" carries such a negative connotation that i refrained from using it.
> 
> james


I'm assuming you mean 'snitch'. 

Not sure why a couple posters are making a deal about Richard contacting F&W. If the frogs in question are of illegal origin, I think it's in everyone's best interest to clear that up.



DCreptiles said:


> but if fish and wild life already deemed the frogs ok and gave the person their package who are any of us to question their call?


I think it's pretty common knowledge that government employees can be a little lax in their adherence to official policies and procedures. That, and people make mistakes all the time.


----------



## james67

DCreptiles said:


> for one of us to take matters into our own hands, and stir the pot more then it should be ( only ) because they dont agree with the action is a very......... so many words come to mind but for the sake of the site...... not so nice move. i firmly believe you guys are taking this one step further then it needs to be and will create more harm then good for this hobby in more ways then one.


this is a great representation of what i mean. if F&W cleared the shipment, why potentially stir up more problems for the hobby. i dont see the need. if you asked about a shipment that they cleared, in order to validate that they did in-fact clear it, then great, if your calling to tell them that you speculate that there is wrongdoing going on, thats a different issue. that is inviting a lot of negative attention to the hobby and putting pressure on everyone IMO

since when is it our responsibility to ensure that F&W know what they are looking at. 

james


----------



## DCreptiles

afterdark said:


> I'm assuming you mean 'snitch'.
> 
> Not sure why a couple posters are making a deal about Richard contacting F&W. If the frogs in question are of illegal origin, I think it's in everyone's best interest to clear that up.


wether the frogs are legal or not it doesnt effect anyone but the person that braught them in, i just think a few people here posting and some that havnt posted that have been pm'ing each other behinde the scenes, feel that this is a classic case of someone turning a ant hill into a mountain. seems like Richard grabed his torche and Phil is lighting it for him. who else is jumping on the Wagon?

Phil you your self has sold pumilio no? do you have paper work for the 08 basti and eldorodo imports you sold? im going to guess and say you wasnt the one that imported them and you purchased them correct? so who did you get them from and did they show you proper paper work when you purchased them.? im going to take another guess and say you are not going to say because their your personal contacts in florida correct?


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> this is a great representation of what i mean. if F&W cleared the shipment, why potentially stir up more problems for the hobby. i dont see the need. if you asked about a shipment that they cleared, in order to validate that they did in-fact clear it, then great, if your calling to tell them that you speculate that there is wrongdoing going on, thats a different issue. that is inviting a lot of negative attention to the hobby and putting pressure on everyone IMO
> 
> james


Has anyone considered that he could have easily not said anything about his inquiry? As opposed he was asking for clarification? 

Ed


----------



## Philsuma

DCreptiles said:


> Phil you your self has sold pumilio no? do you have paper work for the 08 basti and eldorodo imports you sold? im going to guess and say you wasnt the one that imported them and you purchased them correct? so who did you get them from and did they show you proper paper work when you purchased them.? im going to take another guess and say you are not going to say because their your personal contacts in florida correct?


 
My "personal" contacts are Jose at 2 amigos in Miami and Marcus at SNDF. No big secret there.I saw the import paperwork and I have receipts for my transactions. Anything else? Now who's getting personal.

You're doing a lot of "sticking up" for a certain issue and certain people, Derek. Hope you are gonna be ok with all that. Something tells me you already are though.....


----------



## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> wether the frogs are legal or not it doesnt effect anyone but the person that braught them in,


Actually lets make this clear.. if (any) animals were/are imported under false pretenses and USF&W can prove it (even post clearing), then not only is the person who imported then liable for prosecution and fine under the LACY act but all all of the people who purchased those frogs are also liable for prosecution. Just to make clear, I am not pointing any fingers but I thought I should clear up the gross misconception in that sentence. 

Ed


----------



## DCreptiles

im by no means taking anything personal or sticking up for anyone person. what im i am sticking up for is for the people in the hobby to be able to make the ( CHOICE ) to either buy or pass on frogs. i get the feeling people are starting to think im sticking up for someone and not the freedom of choice. so we can clear that up right now. and its nothing personal agenst you or Richard because Richard was the first person to reach out to me when i first joined the hobby and you sold me my first pums when i first got into the hobby and you taught me tons about vivs and how to care for my pums. and im very greatful. but you see how you didnt like me personally attacking you. other people feel the same way about how this thread is unfolding. 

the owner of this site has asked that we do not make this a personal issue and we leave this strictly as a open discussion and try to include facts. everyone was playing nice right up untill someone wanted to speak for all of us here and contact fish and wild life that can very well possibly have a negative effect on all of our collections.

it is no big secret that foul play has been taking place in this hobby since day 1 and still does today. and i think that if someone comes to a show, meet, or places a ad online to sell frogs or other animals its up to US the PEOPLE in the hobby to choose wether or not we are going to purchase or not. IS Richard taking this personal at all? because there has been foul play for yrs and now he decides to contact fish and wild life? will he contact them again in the future for the next shady transaction? is he him self taking it upon him self to be the frog police and keep our collections safe from foul play? 

again for the sake of having respect for kyle and the website i wont really touch base on the personal attacks of the cross breed witch hunt and personal attack of the "mad scientist" and when i defended the fact that these people had a right to do as they please with their own frogs behinde closed doors i was then public enamy number 1. just like i Defended Richards right to do what he wants with his frogs.. im defending our right to chose what we buy and dont buy, its that simple.





Philsuma said:


> My "personal" contacts are Jose at 2 amigos in Miami and Marcus at SNDF. No big secret there.I saw the import paperwork and I have receipts for my transactions. Anything else? Now who's getting personal.
> 
> You're doing a lot of "sticking up" for a certain issue and certain people, Derek. Hope you are gonna be ok with all that. Something tells me you already are though.....


----------



## DCreptiles

Ed said:


> Actually lets make this clear.. if (any) animals were/are imported under false pretenses and USF&W can prove it (even post clearing), then not only is the person who imported then liable for prosecution and fine under the LACY act but all all of the people who purchased those frogs are also liable for prosecution. Just to make clear, I am not pointing any fingers but I thought I should clear up the gross misconception in that sentence.
> 
> Ed


thats what i said ed. because people was saying that i was defending this hard and i said im not worried because if they arent legal it only effects the person that braught them in and they would be held responsible for it just like you said. thats not open for debate. im just here saying that us as adults in a hobby should chose who we purchase from and what we purchase from them. thats all.


----------



## Philsuma

Freedom of choice is fine. LEGAL choices. 

There are absolutely smuggled frogs in this hobby, right now. 

You are saying, oh well, they are here already. No stopping them now. I didn't do it. Don't blame me. I'm just a little guy. Not my place to ask questions. blah blah blah....that's all _Horsesh*t_ Derek.


----------



## afterdark

What I think is important to make clear is that while these smuggled frogs are out there and available - there are also lots of great people working responsibly with CB frogs. 

THAT is what we should be defending and promoting on this board - NOT worrying about people's rights to buy what they want.

****

Sorry Phil - I pretty much repeated your point there, was posting at the same time.


----------



## Philsuma

And meanwhile, the OP - Knicky, is in his bedroom holding his head after reading this huge thread, yelling "make it stop" !!!!!!


----------



## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> thats what i said ed. because people was saying that i was defending this hard and i said im not worried because if they arent legal it only effects the person that braught them in and they would be held responsible for it just like you said. thats not open for debate. im just here saying that us as adults in a hobby should chose who we purchase from and what we purchase from them. thats all.


I have to reiterate it what I said, it DOES NOT AFFECT ONLY THE PERSON WHO BRINGS/BROUGHT animals in under false pretenses. If USF&W can prove it sufficiently to investigate it or make charges, IT ALSO AFFECTS EVERYONE WHO PURCHASED THOSE FROGS FROM THAT PERSON. It affects the people who purchased the frogs (or any other animal) from the second person and so forth. It can affect many many people. 

Ed


----------



## DCreptiles

Philsuma said:


> Freedom of choice is fine. LEGAL choices.
> 
> There are absolutely smuggled frogs in this hobby, right now.
> 
> You are saying, oh well, they are here already. No stopping them now. I didn't do it. Don't blame me. I'm just a little guy. Not my place to ask questions. blah blah blah....that's all _Horsesh*t_ Derek.



wrong.. i did not say that.

what i said was. who am i to play froggie police.. if someone is selling non legal frogs i say to my self hey let me not buy from that dude and see if so and so has any established ones ect... thats what im saying. its like your saying you know what every memeber on DB is a child and let me protect them from the big bad smugglers by cleaning up the mean streats of dendroboard. if everyone felt the way you and Richard do then no blue jeans would of been sold correct? so then how come at least 10 people that i know of on the board ( and dont worry i will NEVER say names because its not my place ) recently purchased Blue Jeans. so aparently not everyone shares your feelings on the big bad smuggling theory.

there are blue jeans for sale on DB right now and its deemd ok to do it because the mod staff here are very good at keeping DB a clean and safe place for the hobbyist to move about. so if this is allowed i truely feel that you guys are making this bigger then it is no?

im going to just leave this topic alone because its just a losing battle on both ends... people with nothing better to do will continue to dress up and play mod for halloween and ring bells blow whistles and point fingers while the rest of us continue to practice good practice and continue buying selling trading our frogs because after all at the end of the say we all share the same hobby. so rather then let this discussion create bad blood ( which it hasnt for me but i think it already has for some people ) ill let it be. and those of you that pm'd me supporting the issue thank you and those of you that pm'd me and dont share my view i thank you for having the respect to chat with me 1 on 1 about it all and seeing my point even though you dont agree with it. but i think this was a great thread that shows where most of us stand on this issue.

no hard feelings.


----------



## DCreptiles

Ed said:


> I have to reiterate it what I said, it DOES NOT AFFECT ONLY THE PERSON WHO BRINGS/BROUGHT animals in under false pretenses. If USF&W can prove it sufficiently to investigate it or make charges, IT ALSO AFFECTS EVERYONE WHO PURCHASED THOSE FROGS FROM THAT PERSON. It affects the people who purchased the frogs (or any other animal) from the second person and so forth. It can affect many many people.
> 
> Ed


agreed again.. but this would take proof.. proof takes investigating and investigating takes time and money. and i will promise you that it doesnt concern me the least bit. i dont even like blue jeans or histos and i wouldnt invest 1000 dollars for frogs when i can put that money into my bike lol so with that being said.. ask anyone here that knows my.. my Door is always open to any frogger on here to come over view the collection and meet my family.


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## deviousk

I might be new to this hobby but by what im learning is that all you can do is ask for paper work and if they show it and looks legit you have done all you can do. Its up to you either buy the frog or dont. If you do, breed it as much as possible and sell them if you like. If you get enough cb into the hobby people will know who to go to when they want them. Then there will be no need to buy the ones people are not sure of. If F&W said they are legit then what else do you want?


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## UmbraSprite

:: Pops open new bag of popcorn ::


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## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> agreed again.. but this would take proof.. proof takes investigating and investigating takes time and money. and i will promise you that it doesnt concern me the least bit. i dont even like blue jeans or histos and i wouldnt invest 1000 dollars for frogs when i can put that money into my bike lol so with that being said.. ask anyone here that knows my.. my Door is always open to any frogger on here to come over view the collection and meet my family.


I'm guessing that you haven't ever talked to someone involved in this sort of investigation... 

It doesn't take as much investigation as you may think.. for example, USF&W investigates the person selling species A.. and you are on his list of having purchased animals (not necessarily species A) from him.. that will probably get you a visit from the USF&W as well as possibly your local wildlife enforcement group.. if you have animals that meet the description of species A, then you may have your animals seized (as they may have been sold to as Species B to cover the tracks) but it may not happen at that time.. If there are local laws that prohibit your ownership or require permits to own, you may have your animals seized and you may again be subject to Lacy act charges depending on the requirments (as you may have engaged in interstate commerce that resulted in a crime...) 
If the animals are given to a institution to hold, you may be liable for a fee for thier care (we used to charge $10/day/animal) during the time it takes to clear it up...


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## Philsuma

UmbraSprite said:


> :: Pops open new bag of popcorn ::


Chris,

You're a businessman as well as a hobbyist. You've also been in the hobby for quite a while now right? Why not put down the popcorn and weigh in?

With the right self marketing, you could be THE go-to guy in the U.S for frogs. Transparency. Visible permits and documentable paperwork. The hobby is crying out for just such a sterling business model.

...now that I think about it.....hmmmmmm


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## Ed

wait, let me get some popcorn.. I have to pop it.. 

Ed


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## Philsuma

forget popcorn,

I'm hitting some 7 and 7 after this whale of a thread.


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## deviousk

Thats all someone has to do is get some of these bj's that have paper work and breed them. That goes for any other rare frogs. Become the go to guy and get rid of the smugglers. I wish I had the experience and the money. Thats what I would like to be one day "the go to guy". Ill just have to start from the bottom but Ill come up quick.


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## Woodsman

Just to be clear. I meet with US F&W staff often related to conservation of the federally-endangered plants I work with in my "real" life. I have several plant species currently proposed as endangered under the US Endangered Species Act (ESA). I have only asked my colleagues there for points of clarifications on the importation laws for Dendrobatid species for which no legal exportations from countries of origin were permitted. I am using the Blue Jean Pumilios and Sylvaticus as examples, but I think there needs to be a much larger discussion at the regulatory agency level about EU "permissiveness" when it comes to these frogs.

I have no interest in what anyone at DB (or other lesser forums) think of me. If laws are being broken, that is what matters and that is what needs to followed-up on. I may actually lose some good frog friends over this, but I hope they will come to understand that the hobby is not worth endangering frog species in the wild.

Take care, Richard.


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## Roadrunner

Why not call in about those frogs? Someone recently called in to make sure my cb shipments were legal. If someone would call to check if my business was operating legitimately why not call in for actually suspect shipments with animals known to be smuggled.


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## skylsdale

This is part of the problem: folks on this end saying "they are legal because they were shipped to me as CB, and that's what the paperwork says, and it's legal to ship CB animals...so they're legal." (Aaron, I'm not calling you out on this issue...I'm just now catching up on this thread and happen to be replying after your post).

A few months ago I was contacted by a researcher in Colombia who has been trying to monitor histrionica populations. A couple have been hit hard, and at this point might be all but completely extirpated. European dealers are paying native folks to go into pretty isolated areas and collect these frogs in high numbers (i.e. thousands at a time) and ship them out. Most of them end up sold and spread througout Europe, another decent number probably sent to Japan. I'm unaware if any have hit the U.S. yet, but given these FACTS, if a large shipment of adult histrionica suddenly show up (even if LEGALLY shipped as CB specimens, and maybe there are a few actual CB frogs thrown in for good measure and to cover proverbial butts), I don't think a whole lot of speculation is required to connect the dots.

Whether or not this is happening with these specific "Blue Jeans" pumilio, I don't know. But given that so much is being made of speculation, wanted to provide the info behind some previous statements. Is it possible that a whole bunch of adult CB frogs comprised the shipment? Sure it is. But understanding what is going on with other similar types of frogs, I think there is plenty of room for people to be skeptical.


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## Roadrunner

Great post Ron.
What people have to realize is that there is a difference between legal and ethical purchase of dartfrogs. It goes w/ everything we purchase from our food to............. Just because it`s "legal" doesn`t mean it`s right. If you don`t know where it came from your voting w/ your dollar that you don`t care where it comes from. 


skylsdale said:


> This is part of the problem: folks on this end saying "they are legal because they were shipped to me as CB, and that's what the paperwork says, and it's legal to ship CB animals...so they're legal." (Aaron, I'm not calling you out on this issue...I'm just now catching up on this thread and happen to be replying after your post).
> 
> A few months ago I was contacted by a researcher in Colombia who has been trying to monitor histrionica populations. A couple have been hit hard, and at this point might be all but completely extirpated. European dealers are paying native folks to go into pretty isolated areas and collect these frogs in high numbers (i.e. thousands at a time) and ship them out. Most of them end up sold and spread througout Europe, another decent number probably sent to Japan. I'm unaware if any have hit the U.S. yet, but given these FACTS, if a large shipment of adult histrionica suddenly show up (even if LEGALLY shipped as CB specimens, and maybe there are a few actual CB frogs thrown in for good measure and to cover proverbial butts), I don't think a whole lot of speculation is required to connect the dots.
> 
> Whether or not this is happening with these specific "Blue Jeans" pumilio, I don't know. But given that so much is being made of speculation, wanted to provide the info behind some previous statements. Is it possible that a whole bunch of adult CB frogs comprised the shipment? Sure it is. But understanding what is going on with other similar types of frogs, I think there is plenty of room for people to be skeptical.


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## Ed

This explain the law pretty well including the whole labeling requirements... The Lacey Act: America's Premier Weapon 

Ed


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## jon

I may be off base, but don't CB frogs lack toxins for the most part? And don't wild caught frogs maintain some of the alkaloid toxins for their whole lives in captivity? Would a swab be able to help ID CB or WC frogs? Or is that over-simplifying it?


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## Ed

Actually for some animals, there is probably has been enough DNA work, that a toe clip would show actual country of origin. 

Ed


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## Philsuma

......you can almost _hear_ the sweat dripping off some foreheads about now.


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## thedude

what would happen if you touched a WC pumilio? rash? itchy? burning?


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## Ed

Nothing unless you swished it around in your mouth (sucked your thumb or licked your fingers), rubbed it or your hand in your eyes, stuffed it (or a contaminated diget) into your nose or other body cavity where contact could be made with mucous membranes or rubbed it into a cut. It would also depend on the locality and possibly season as there are a lot of variations in alkaloid content based on several factors. 

Ed


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## Philsuma

I handled a few in CR as well as some Auratus. Nothing noted...

JP (Monarch Man) has probably handled hundreds.


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## Tony

jon said:


> I may be off base, but don't CB frogs lack toxins for the most part? And don't wild caught frogs maintain some of the alkaloid toxins for their whole lives in captivity? Would a swab be able to help ID CB or WC frogs? Or is that over-simplifying it?


From what I understand the toxicity fades over time, so it could be a useful technique to ID fresh imports, but not so much for more established frogs.


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## frogface

I have enjoyed this thread. Thank you for discussing it.



[edited out the... ahhh.. 'joke']


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## Ed

Tony said:


> From what I understand the toxicity fades over time, so it could be a useful technique to ID fresh imports, but not so much for more established frogs.


There is a problem with this.. with respect to pumiliotoxins.. there are 100 different variations known from those frogs alone... and that doesn't even include the other classes of alkaloid toxins that they may contain. Additionally the variety and level varies in the wild, not only on geography (and it may be very different over a very short distance) but with the season in the wild. In captivity, there are some studies that it took years for captive frogs to lose significant levels of the toxins (as the toxins can be stored in glands in the skin and do not necessarily have to be on the skin, as well as recycling the toxins from shed skins. 
Given that there are 100 known toxin in just one group, how do you determine which are from the original country and which are due to feeding wild insects to the frogs?... 


Ed


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## thedude

so there really isnt a way to know if they are wild by just touching them? what about licking them? (boy this is getting weird)

im just interested because quite a few people could determine if they are WC then. or maybe someone with experience could take a toe clipping to a lab.


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## UmbraSprite

Ed said:


> Actually for some animals, there is probably has been enough DNA work, that a toe clip would show actual country of origin.
> 
> Ed


Ouch! I think a few frogs are perspiring at the sound of that! We did so much of that on salamanders and frogs in college studying migration habits...I felt horrible.

Phil: I will stick to the popcorn! 
I get my "feel goods" from helping save women from dying of cervical cancer 50-60 hours a week at my day job. Frogs are my relaxation ... I try (though I don't always succeed) to keep from letting it get my blood pressure up. As I mentioned elsewhere there really isn't money to be made in selling frogs and supplies. Too small of a market and too many people competing. It is awesome for the hobbyists though. Sad part is the only folks probably turning a dime are the people moving large number of legal or not legal animals. There isn't money in raising them. That is a labor of love.

CD


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## Philsuma

Yeah Chris, I kinda knew you would say that and you are right, of course.

It's just every so often we all dream of better things, I guess.


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## kyle1745

As I predicted the witch hunt has gone overboard...

I'm only going to make this point one time. Keep it civil including the PMs. I have heard of some nasty PMs flying around and these individuals will be dealt with. If you have received a PM you feel is out of line please contact me with a copy of the PM for review.

I'm allowing the discussion, but lets keep the threats and completely false claims out of it. 

If it can not remain civil we will have no choice but to close the thread.


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## somecanadianguy

anybody thought about the frogs they didnt pick this , they want to live .if we love the frogs like we all say we do dont we want these to survive as best possible regardless of how or why?
craig 
ps im not a suporter of sumgeled stuff at all , but thier here we owe them the best possible life we can no


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## Ed

thedude said:


> so there really isnt a way to know if they are wild by just touching them? what about licking them? (boy this is getting weird)
> 
> im just interested because quite a few people could determine if they are WC then. or maybe someone with experience could take a toe clipping to a lab.


Yes you can taste test them for the presence of toxins but you can't tell if these toxins are from wild animals (and there are still blue jeans alive today that were imported in the 1980s and they will probably still have some level present). So there are a couple of potential false positives from taste testing. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

What is it about doctors that makes them want to put people out of work in their spare time. Your the 3rd or 4th doctor I`ve heard say"you can`t make enough money breeding frogs" while you sell things lower than or at cost of production. Is it part of the "god thing". 



UmbraSprite said:


> Ouch! I think a few frogs are perspiring at the sound of that! We did so much of that on salamanders and frogs in college studying migration habits...I felt horrible.
> 
> Phil: I will stick to the popcorn!
> I get my "feel goods" from helping save women from dying of cervical cancer 50-60 hours a week at my day job. Frogs are my relaxation ... I try (though I don't always succeed) to keep from letting it get my blood pressure up. As I mentioned elsewhere there really isn't money to be made in selling frogs and supplies. Too small of a market and too many people competing. It is awesome for the hobbyists though. Sad part is the only folks probably turning a dime are the people moving large number of legal or not legal animals. There isn't money in raising them. That is a labor of love.
> 
> CD


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## Philsuma

somecanadianguy said:


> anybody thought about the frogs they didnt pick this , they want to live .if we love the frogs like we all say we do dont we want these to survive as best possible regardless of how or why?
> craig
> ps im not a suporter of sumgeled stuff at all , but thier here we owe them the best possible life we can no


 
Thats the common "pet store puppy" line of thought.

People see the puppy in a bad pet store, in bad conditions and they tell themselves that they just have to save it. They hate the pet store and it's tiny puppy cages with the puppy standing in it's own waste but they still continue to buy the puppys in order to save them.

Then the store stays in business and keeps buying unhealthy puppy-mill puppies and displaying them in tiny crates without cleaning and health care.

You can substitute reptiles, frogs or virtually any other animal for the above puppies.

It takes work and self restraint, but if we want to change things and do better by the animals, we have to find the good people and avoid the bad ones....


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## sports_doc

frogfarm said:


> What is it about doctors that makes them want to put people out of work in their spare time. Your the 3rd or 4th doctor I`ve heard say"you can`t make enough money breeding frogs" while you sell things lower than or at cost of production. Is it part of the "god thing".


 
huh??  wtf, Aaron honestly.......


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## BBoyette

UmbraSprite said:


> As I mentioned elsewhere there really isn't money to be made in selling frogs and supplies. Too small of a market and too many people competing. It is awesome for the hobbyists though. Sad part is the only folks probably turning a dime are the people moving large number of legal or not legal animals. There isn't money in raising them. That is a labor of love.
> 
> CD


So very true....you make more money from just being a hobbyist Vs. having a establish small business.


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## edwardsatc

frogfarm said:


> What is it about doctors that makes them want to put people out of work in their spare time. Your the 3rd or 4th doctor I`ve heard say"you can`t make enough money breeding frogs" while you sell things lower than or at cost of production. Is it part of the "god thing".


Is there anyone in this hobby that isn't out to ruin your means of making an income? Hobbyists sell too cheap, importers drive the price of CB frogs down, .......now doctors in their spare time? Really? Wow!


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## catman25

well just catching the end part of this and trust me i have nothing to add , only a comment . we should educate the people that dont know what they are buying(me included) on ways of confirming non illegally obtained frogs. im def interested in know how to spot true bred frogs. i only buy from dendroboard users but is that enough ? hope every one gets along :/


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## DCreptiles

this thread is really getting nasty and way off topic......


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## Philsuma

catman25 said:


> well just catching the end part of this and trust me i have nothing to add , only a comment . we should educate the people that dont know what they are buying(me included) on ways of confirming non illegally obtained frogs. im def interested in know how to spot true bred frogs. *i only buy from dendroboard users but is that enough* ? hope every one gets along :/


Unfortunately, not everone gets along. Such is life.

Only buying from DB people is a very good step. As one, I can't argue with that.

2 problems are:

1. Kingsnake.com falsely advertises Almirante morphs as "Blue Jeans".

2. New hobbyists make impulse purchases without spending a lot of time looking around this forum and before they get to know "the lay of the land" and who is who and what is what....


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## BBoyette

DCreptiles said:


> this thread is really getting nasty and way off topic......


It got out of hand on the first page....and the sad thing about it all is, no matter how many good or bad comments folks have made it really doesnt matter because at the end of the day things will remain unchanged. 
“If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always gotten.”


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## Philsuma

*Brandon.....you will be suprised what has already changed or will change in the future, just from this thread.*



*Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Group of People... *



"Never underestimate the power of a small group of people to change the world. In fact, it is the only way it ever has." Margaret Mead


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## nathan

Philsuma said:


> *Brandon.....you will be suprised what has already changed or will change in the future, just from this thread.*


And what would that be? Im curious Ive been reading this thread from the start. Did I miss something? What has changed?


I dont think saying kingsnake is the number 1 problem is right. Just because a few individuals post thier frogs as blue jeans when in fact they are not doesnt make saying somehting like kingsnake is at fault right. Thats like saying dendroboard is at fault if one person posts lets say a patricia for sale when its a cit . . .

In kingsnakes classifieds you can contact kingsnake if you feel the animals represented are false you can Report abuse.

I think alot of it comes down to the general public being uneducated about this particular morph. 

Also in the herp world , if something looks fancy or has some kind of cool color or pattern , they just slap any given name on it to try to sell that said morph . . . 
I think the people selling the blue jeans on kingsnake fall under both. They dont know the difference between an almirante and a Blue jeans, and they call them blue jeans because thats what they look like and will help sell them. . . That and they probably just dont care . . .

But saying all of kingsnake is bad . . . thats a little too far if you ask me. It comes down to the individuals posting animals for sale.

Maybe dendroboard needs to advertise on kingsnake , draw more people here to get educated about these little gems . . .

( I am not trying to stick up for anyone , And I too think alot of people on kingsnake are full of BS)


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## kingnicky101

DCreptiles said:


> this thread is really getting nasty and way off topic......


Agreed completely. I was only wondering about if people were having lots of luck breeding them because there has been a big price drop difference then when I first came into the hobby. Nothing about smuggling, paperwork, etc. I left the thread alone after going away and checked u back to an 18 page riot. Or "witch hunt" as some may call it.


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## Philsuma

Philsuma said:


> And meanwhile, the OP - Knicky, is in his bedroom holding his head after reading this huge thread, yelling "make it stop" !!!!!!


Since it's your thread, why not send a PM to a mod or Kyle and ask for this thread to be locked. Should be no big deal....


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## kingnicky101

It isn't bothering me that much I just hate to see people argue and turn on each other like a pack of wolves because of something way off topic. I just think that people are either breeding some surplus or have some nice adults and in this poor economy they need the money maybe. idk. But please stop fighting and claiming that these blue jeans are smuggled because there are a lot of responsible people selling them. After all most blue jeans I've seen or heard of are in the hands of responsible people (responsible people who won't smuggle). I honestly doubt the great folks like Julio, MaxB22, Aaron, etc. are selling wc smuggled blue jeans and ripping you off. I really hope you stop picking on people being nice and selling BJ's at a lower price.


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## Philsuma

kingnicky101 said:


> I honestly doubt the great folks like Julio, MaxB22, Aaron, etc. are selling wc smuggled blue jeans and ripping *you* off. I really hope *you* stop picking on people being nice and selling BJ's at a lower price.


Are you directing this statement at me ?


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## DCreptiles

kingnicky101 said:


> It isn't bothering me that much I just hate to see people argue and turn on each other like a pack of wolves because of something way off topic. I just think that people are either breeding some surplus or have some nice adults and in this poor economy they need the money maybe. idk. But please stop fighting and claiming that these blue jeans are smuggled because there are a lot of responsible people selling them. After all most blue jeans I've seen or heard of are in the hands of responsible people (responsible people who won't smuggle). I honestly doubt the great folks like Julio, MaxB22, Aaron, etc. are selling wc smuggled blue jeans and ripping you off. I really hope you stop picking on people being nice and selling BJ's at a lower price.


nicky your 100% right.. but since you new ill clear it up for you. their not saying the actual sellers here are smugglers but that they purchased smuggled frogs. aparently the argument is that they were smuggled from CR to EU and then sold and sent to the usa as "captive bred" and were then sold to members here in the hobby. so basically if you purchased these blue jeans that they claim have been smuggled ( which i dont know where they got the idea they were ) you are aiding smuggling. so basically if you purchased them they wonna string you up from the nearest tree and make a example out of you.. PHil was right there is going to be change.. lol but not the "change" he thinks will change. just like Brandon said. the market.. the people.. the frogs.. all will remain the same.. just how people deal with each other will change.. so nicky be a smart man and just walk away. because when you argue with a wall, you just waste your time.

everyone should just let this thread be and die off because changes have already been made people have personally offended other people, friendships were broken, and lines have been drawn. so now we can sit back and let the rumars develope and spread. but hey at least we all know where a few people stand in this hobby and we know who doesnt stand behinde their words. as for some people say something in front of you and post something completely different. so like phil said nicky just have a mod close the thread since it was yours.


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## thedude

kingnicky101 said:


> It isn't bothering me that much I just hate to see people argue and turn on each other like a pack of wolves because of something way off topic. I just think that people are either breeding some surplus or have some nice adults and in this poor economy they need the money maybe. idk. But please stop fighting and claiming that these blue jeans are smuggled because there are a lot of responsible people selling them. After all most blue jeans I've seen or heard of are in the hands of responsible people (responsible people who won't smuggle). I honestly doubt the great folks like Julio, MaxB22, Aaron, etc. are selling wc smuggled blue jeans and ripping you off. I really hope you stop picking on people being nice and selling BJ's at a lower price.


ok nobody said they were ripping people off or selling smuggled frogs. we question whether the frogs are smuggled because it is entirely possible. if they didnt know, bought them and are now selling them with the info they were given then its not their fault. its the smugglers, importers, and original sellers fault. only because they dont know though. if they knew they were smuggled then thats diferent.

either way, i dont think what you said was the right choice of words. especially if your directing that towards phil because he has done a great job of helping the thread along while still being civil. also, the last sentence, "stop picking on people being nice and selling BJ's at a lower price"?? seriously? when did that happen?


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## ChrisK

Just for some inside insight - a lot of the people "disagreeing" in this thread are local and really friendly with each other in person so I wouldn't take it really as being disrespectful, they're (we're) most likely going to be hanging out with each other at Jason's drinking and talking about it more................


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## ChrisK

ChrisK said:


> Just for some inside insight - a lot of the people "disagreeing" in this thread are local and really friendly with each other in person so I wouldn't take it really as being disrespectful, they're (we're) most likely going to be hanging out with each other at Jason's drinking and talking about it more................


OK nevermind......................


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## pl259

Time to go play in another sandbox...


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