# Anyone have good photos of orange or orange blackfoot terribilis they'd be willing to share?



## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I was under the weather on past few days off and I was messing around on Wikipedia as I often will do when I'm sapped of energy - I found myself re-writing large chunks of the P. terribilis article, as it was pretty clunky and in need of in-line citations. It still has a ways to go, but one thing the article (and Wikipedia in general) does not have is photographs of orange or orange blackfoot _P. terribilis._

There's a single photo of an orange but the lighting is weird and it might really be a yellow. There does not appear to be any photo of orange blackfoot on all of wikipedia or wikimedia commons (the wiki photo repository). 

Would any board users be willing to contribute a photo if they have either of these morphs (or a photo)? It would have to be released under a creative commons license, meaning anyone can use it provided it they provide photo credit (though that stipulation has not prevented third parties from jacking my California Kingsnake photo and not crediting me, including MorphMarket and Clint's Reptiles). Despite these minor annoying instances of photo stealing, I do think it is in the interest of the common good to have these photos available under a CC license (and the aforementioned incidents actually violate the CC license, so not releasing the photos wouldn't necessarily protect them anyway). 

If anyone has photos they'd be willing to contribute let me know - I'd like to add them to that article.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

What's the resolution required? I snap thousands of photos with my iPhone which means some are of better quality than others; when the lighting's good I can usually produce a Web-ready shot, I'm sure I have something provided the resolution demands aren't too high ... I sold my old DSLR rig in anticipation of new gear but haven't bought it yet ...


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

My orange blackfoots


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## The Gecko Fein (12 mo ago)

Definitely on my list..


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

*Great* shots above from @crbonade , I don't think you'll be needing anything from me @connorology unless you want a portrait of a fully grown adult. Cheers!


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

crbonade said:


> My orange blackfoots
> 
> View attachment 305677
> 
> ...


How do you want to be cited? (user name or actual name)


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Fahad said:


> What's the resolution required? I snap thousands of photos with my iPhone which means some are of better quality than others; when the lighting's good I can usually produce a Web-ready shot, I'm sure I have something provided the resolution demands aren't too high ... I sold my old DSLR rig in anticipation of new gear but haven't bought it yet ...


No required resolution - higher is better but it's kinda whatever - I'm not a master Wikipedian, but my understanding is there's a decent amount of leeway if its literally the only CC image of something. Should probably be higher res than a blurry bigfoot photo but doesn't need to be DSLR.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Is there a consensus on how many naturally occurring "morphs" there really are of P. terribilis ? As in, how many locales have naturally occuring wild colors? The "orange blackfoot" pictured above aren't subtle - they are orange. They have black feet.

But my two "yellows" are sort of orange yellow (I have no idea of lineage - they were craigslist rehomes from a local frogger who rescued them). The "mints" seem like they have a wide variety of colors ranging from sort of beige to metallic green... I am unclear about how well these represent natural populations vs. frog lines that just got established in the hobby way back when so that is all we see.

I suppose my specific question is should I include an "orange" and an "orange blackfoot" photo? Or is "mint green", "yellow", and "orange blackfoot" reasonably representative?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

connorology said:


> Is there a consensus on how many naturally occurring "morphs" there really are of P. terribilis ? As in, how many locales have naturally occuring wild colors? The "orange blackfoot" pictured above aren't subtle - they are orange. They have black feet.
> 
> But my two "yellows" are sort of orange yellow (I have no idea of lineage - they were craigslist rehomes from a local frogger who rescued them). The "mints" seem like they have a wide variety of colors ranging from sort of beige to metallic green... I am unclear about how well these represent natural populations vs. frog lines that just got established in the hobby way back when so that is all we see.
> 
> I suppose my specific question is should I include an "orange" and an "orange blackfoot" photo? Or is "mint green", "yellow", and "orange blackfoot" reasonably representative?


Not clear on that myself. From everything I've been able to glean and via my own experience breeding these frogs:

*Old Lines:*

Yellow: produce varying levels of saturated base colour from a very pale yellow gradient through to actual citrus orange as well as variable black pigment present all over the body and snout.
Mint: beige/bronze through to metallic blue. Described in the literature as first being encountered a 'cream/turquoise' locality. Said by Ivan Lozano to currently reside on indigenous land.
Orange: anecdotal accounts suggest this locality overlaps yellow type. What I've seen in photos are generally a medium orange.
*Tesoros:*

Blackfoot Orange: golden yellow (more saturated than the Yellow Type) through to a very deep, saturated pumpkin orange. Distinct black gloves and socks, may be speckled grey, may be nearly absent. Black markings on throat, venter and rump ranges from distinct patches to nearly absent or speckled grey. I've recently produced some suspiciously mottled, dark frogs with lots of black, waiting to see if they retain the look. Said to be a distinct locality type.
Waiting to get confirmation from Ivan Lozano of Tesoros on some of these questions.

I would include Blackfoot Orange as they are a distinct population and originate with Tesoros de Colombia.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Here's a few shots of mine which show the black patches on the throat and undersides as well as a closeup of the skin texture to add to the already great shots above.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Fahad said:


> Not clear on that myself. From everything I've been able to glean and via my own experience breeding these frogs:
> 
> *Old Lines:*
> 
> ...


Is any of this written up in English somewhere? For use as a citation? I have citations for the first three, I don't have anything for blackfoots


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

tachikoma said:


> Here's a few shots of mine which show the black patches on the throat and undersides as well as a closeup of the skin texture to add to the already great shots above.
> 
> View attachment 305701
> 
> ...


Nice, how would you like to be credited? (When they're uploaded under a CC license there's a name or username that has to be credited to legally use the photo)


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Also, any standard orange (not orange blackfoot) photos that anyone has?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

connorology said:


> Is any of this written up in English somewhere? For use as a citation? I have citations for the first three, I don't have anything for blackfoots


I have yet to find a citation, maybe someone else has.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

connorology said:


> How do you want to be cited? (user name or actual name)


Username is fine


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

connorology said:


> Nice, how would you like to be credited? (When they're uploaded under a CC license there's a name or username that has to be credited to legally use the photo)


James Little or Frog Parade (my business name) is fine.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Fahad said:


> I have yet to find a citation, maybe someone else has.


I'm clicking around, I found a few sources discussing locales of mints and yellows.. Not finding a lot differentiating yellows from oranges. I found a nat geo article that says the orange blackfoot is a selectively bred morph that Tesoros de Colombia created.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

connorology said:


> I'm clicking around, I found a few sources discussing locales of mints and yellows.. Not finding a lot differentiating yellows from oranges. I found a nat geo article that says the orange blackfoot is a selectively bred morph that Tesoros de Colombia created.


That article's been discussed here a lot -- it appears to be inaccurate reporting, as there are anecdotal accounts that the Blackfoot is an actual locality type and at any rate, I'm not sure Tesoros would actually go that route given they're rooted in a conservation ethos.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

connorology said:


> I'm clicking around, I found a few sources discussing locales of mints and yellows..


Could you share the links please? Thanks in advance!

The only sources I've found discuss species range as a whole for the most part ... they're found further North than originally thought, from their originally reported range in Cauca up into Valle del Cauca I believe. This was mentioned in something I read recently that @Socratic Monologue linked to, I think this link has it.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Fahad said:


> That article's been discussed here a lot -- it appears to be inaccurate reporting, as there are anecdotal accounts that the Blackfoot is an actual locality type and at any rate, I'm not sure Tesoros would actually go that route given they're rooted in a conservation ethos.


IIRC, I read somewhere (old threads here) that the blackfoots are a naturally occurring morph but that Tesoros keeps the location a closely kept secret to prevent smugglers from getting to it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

connorology said:


> I found a nat geo article that says the orange blackfoot is a selectively bred morph that Tesoros de Colombia created.


That article is somewhat infamous for its culpable ignorance of the topic that it purports to discuss.









NatGeo Piece on Conservation and Smuggling, includes...


Article




www.dendroboard.com


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Fahad said:


> Could you share the links please? Thanks in advance!
> 
> The only sources I've found discuss species range as a whole for the most part ... they're found further North than originally thought, from their originally reported range in Cauca up into Valle del Cauca I believe. This was mentioned in something I read recently that @Socratic Monologue linked to, I think this link has it.


For whatever reason I am not able to follow that link - I'll link the article I have:

(Edit: my link isn't working either - I attached below). Also the Virginia Zoo (without citations) claims mints are from La Brea, which seems like it is in conflict with the previous which says they are from La Sirpa.

As for the Nat Geo article... whether or not the forum approves of the quality of the interviewees, Tesoros is or was line breeding for the orange blackfoot. I do not have strong opinions about whether that is good or bad, but nothing in the linked thread suggests that information is incorrect.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

connorology said:


> As for the Nat Geo article... whether or not the forum approves of the quality of the interviewees, *Tesoros is or was line breeding* for the orange blackfoot.


Do you have sources beyond that article? It's the only reference I've actually found for line breeding.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

connorology said:


> As for the Nat Geo article... whether or not the forum approves of the quality of the interviewees, Tesoros is or was line breeding for the orange blackfoot. I do not have strong opinions about whether that is good or bad, but nothing in the linked thread suggests that information is incorrect.



It isn't the quality of sources (it isn't a popularity contest), it is the fact that a smuggler was interviewed as a source of advice about how to reduce smuggling in a way that didn't make that connection clear (since the author apparently didn't know the connection). Sometimes smugglers give inside info on the illegal trade (as in Rachel Love Nuwer's "Poached"), but this was pretty clearly just a lack of vetting sources. Sloppy reporting -- to the point of gross misrepresentation -- on a topic a group is invested in is going to raise the hackles of members of that group, as it misrepresents the group and undermines their interests and their goals.

On the other point: there is a difference between line breeding (I assume you mean 'in each generation, selecting breeding individuals from one population/captive group on the basis of each animal's possession of a heritable trait with the goal of "refining" and "improving" that trait') and what the article claims -- namely, that 'Blackfoot' is not a natural morph:

"One strategy Lozano uses to discourage smuggling is to offer unique “morphs” of frogs with signature colorations *produced exclusively through captive breeding*. Because *these color patterns aren’t found in nature*, this provides further incentive to steer customers away from wild frogs. His most famous one is the “Tesoro Blackfoot”—a morph of the golden poison frog bred to have pitch-black feet that contrast with the otherwise brilliant yellow body."

Both your comment about line breeding and mine here about whether this is a captive or wild morph have been made in the linked thread.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

@connorology here's a copy of the paper I tried to link to. Please see attached.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

I feel like I should clarify that I'm looking at this from a perspective of needing sources for the Wikipedia article, which is intended to be written for a general audience. Nat Geo qualifies as a reliable source, forum posts do not. and while mainstream media articles often miss nuances when reporting on niche topics I don't see any evidence that anything in that article is actually directly contested as not factual, and certainly not contested in a way I can use as a source (If I am incorrect about that please link me to the source and I will use it).

As for evidence for line breeding other than the Nat Geo article, another user in the linked thread said he contacted Tesoros and they confirmed:


Sherman said:


> Hey all,
> This article was the first I have heard of the production of "unique "morphs"", so I checked with Tesoros directly.
> I was told that the "blackfoot" is a naturally occurring trait that was favored when setting up the breeders.


There was then debate over whether or not that should be considered a morph or not, but ultimately whether or not we agree with the verbiage I consider this to essentially support the claims in the Nat Geo article: they artificially selected for a trait, created a unique "morph" that nobody else had access to at the time, and sold that unique morph under a name referencing the color. I have no problem with any of that, especially since it was done to try and dissuade poachers and was presumably not done in a way that would adversely impact the animals' health/welfare, which is my personal primary concern with morphs (that is another discussion though). If the frogs had their black feet trait increased any small fraction of a percentage by that selection process then the article is technically 100% accurate, even though I agree with you that it isn't the best description of the topic. And again, while it is not the best description of the process, it is accurate enough to use for the Wikipedia article, which is a general overview on a topic. "Accurate enough" isn't ideal, but if it is the only published discussion of the topic I don't have a whole lot of options.

I will however, consider the discussion here when wording the Wiki article, and I appreciate the additional context.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Follow up, does anyone object to this description (mashup of article and Fahad's description in a way that can be cited)

"The orange blackfoot morph is a captive bred line created by Tesoros de Colombia, a Colombian company that aims to reduce poaching of wild dart frogs by breeding rare species and flooding the pet trade with low cost animals to decrease the value of wild specimens to poachers.[10] This morph is golden yellow to a deep orange. They have distinct black or speckled grey feet as well as black markings on the throat, vent, and rump that range from distinct patches to nearly absent or speckled grey.[10]"


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

The only thing I may clarify is the fact that some _completely lack_ the 'gloves' and 'boots' -- I've produced animals with no black pigment on the feet, or only black fingers, occasional asymmetric markings etc. etc.

It can be confusing given their trade name.



connorology said:


> Follow up, does anyone object to this description (mashup of article and Fahad's description in a way that can be cited)
> 
> "The orange blackfoot morph is a captive bred line created by Tesoros de Colombia, a Colombian company that aims to reduce poaching of wild dart frogs by breeding rare species and flooding the pet trade with low cost animals to decrease the value of wild specimens to poachers.[10] This morph is golden yellow to a deep orange. They have distinct black or speckled grey feet as well as black markings on the throat, vent, and rump that range from distinct patches to nearly absent or speckled grey.[10]"


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Fahad said:


> The only thing I may clarify is the fact that some _completely lack_ the 'gloves' and 'boots' -- I've produced animals with no black pigment on the feet, or only black fingers, occasional asymmetric markings etc. etc.
> 
> It can be confusing given their trade name.


Got it, I have fixed the wording, thanks for the clarification.

On another note, after doing a little more reading I am somewhat skeptical that yellow and orange _terribilis_ truly represent distinct locales. The original description of the species from 1978 describes collecting specimens from two locales: La Brea, where they reportedly obtained mints, and Quebrada Guangui, where they found a color spectrum of yellow and orange frogs living near each other, writing: "QUEBRADA GUANGUI: Well over 500 specimens were collected by resident indians and ourselves at the type locality. Most of these frogs were various shades of golden yellow or golden orange; a relative few were pale greenish yellow or deep orange.... Each person's catch tended to consist predominantly of one color phase, depending on the ridge or slope area that was worked."

So from this description it sounds like at this locale there were oranges and yellows living with each other, and even some greenish frogs that maybe had some mint genes (maybe they were sampling from an intergrade area?). Mints on the other hand come from a separate population and a confirmed second locale. The previous range extension paper I linked listed a second locale mints are known to occur in.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

@connorology Yellow and Orange have been said (anecdotally) to have an intergrade zone; the population of 'Orange' I've seen within the trade tends to produce all or mostly orange animals as far as I know, but that's no indication of wild type of course.

As far as Yellow goes, in my own group I have a line that I can trace back to Simply Natural Dart Frogs which I think was/is operating out of Miami ... and have the following:

Pale Greenish Yellow (very different from the green tint you may see on a Mint)
Pale Yellow
Pale Yellow to Medium Yellow Gradient with a black snout
Deep Yellow with a black snout
Bright Orange (not the deeper, solid oranges seen in Blackfoot type but more of a gradient) with black snout
Deep Yellow with almost no black pigment
Medium Yellow with random orange-red pigment spots that vary in intensity over time (perhaps dietary)
I've also seen Yellow types frequently in Europe that have large expanses of black pigment retained all over their body, and I've seen photos of lemon yellow frogs 'peppered' with black specks of pigment.

... I have 22 Yellow froglets growing up now that have begun their colour change; they look to be pretty variable as well.

While I see quite a bit of variation in the 'Blackfoot Orange' type, the base colour tends to be more saturated with less of a gradient.


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## connorology (Oct 6, 2018)

Fahad said:


> @connorology Yellow and Orange have been said (anecdotally) to have an intergrade zone; the population of 'Orange' I've seen within the trade tends to produce all or mostly orange animals as far as I know, but that's no indication of wild type of course.
> 
> As far as Yellow goes, in my own group I have a line that I can trace back to Simply Natural Dart Frogs which I think was/is operating out of Miami ... and have the following:
> 
> ...


Have you read much/anything of where the "old" lines came from? I have read that they're presumed to have originally been illegally imported, but the American Museum of Natural History reportedly had a legally obtained breeding population as early as 1978.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

connorology said:


> Have you read much/anything of where the "old" lines came from? I have read that they're presumed to have originally been illegally imported, but the American Museum of Natural History reportedly had a legally obtained breeding population as early as 1978.


I've heard both of those accounts, but almost everything I "know" is gleaned from old froggers telling stories and/or posts buried in various forum archives.

What really clouds things is the long history of inaccessibility and danger surrounding terribilis habitat, and while Colombia is far safer now, recent events surrounding activists and park rangers indicate it's not completely safe yet, and I imagine there are _many_ other animals demanding funding for study, although I think Pro Aves may treat P. terribilis as a 'keystone' species -- i.e. protect it and you protect many others in the web. Been a while since I read up on that.


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