# Quarantine and Testing from the mind of a dark individual......



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I think there are enough posts, threads and rants on this subject we need to bring it to life with something you will remember. Quarantining your frogs properly is for both the frogs and the rest of your collections benefit. It gives you the ability to better watch them and make sure all is well on the physical side while testing takes place.

Do not send fecals to those who are not amphibian experienced. Ask them if they are up to date on both testing, treatments and dosage. Its also a good idea to have a list of both common and uncommon things they should be on the lookout for. I strongly recommend stcking to the experienced amphibian vets. I recently saw where someone suggested to use a local vet then if they find something send it to Dr Frye. .............

Big problem what if they miss something? Then you have frogs that are spreading a parasite all over their viv and contaminating it too. Why pay a hooker to get you ready and another to finish? seems like a waste of time and money to me..........

As for testing it doesnt matter if the frogs look fat, healthy, feeding, active, breeding and all its just like the nice piece of HIV infected ass at the end of the bar, she may look like fun but its better to be safe than sorry. Test your frogs while in QT.

Michael


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

A little rough around the edges, but pretty much spot on....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It should be noted that mailed fecals are not ideal.. for example, an animal may have an overgrowth of protozoal parasites due to issues with the digestive system. If the fecal isn't fresh when it is read, then these may not be present due to death and decomposition, or reversion to an encysted form that makes it harder for them to be read. Regardless if the vet has a lot of amphibian experience or not, a fresh fecal is alway going to present a much better picture of the health of a frog than one that has spent time being mailed. 

If a person invests in a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry they can take it with them for the vet to look at to compare things seen in the fecal or even loan to them. 

As an aside, if you don't patronize other vets, how do you expect them ever get experience? 

As another benefit of not mailing fecals is that one can get medications that allow for better targeted dosing and treatment than those that are dusted onto food items. Using those drugs ensures accurate dosing for the frogs and also reduces the amount of time required to treat the frogs for the pathogens..Unlike dusting which runs the risk of overdosing and underdosing the frogs depending on how many food items are consumed and how fast the food items clean themselves of the medication. As the vet gains experience if they have the frog in hand, they may be part of the movement by some experienced vets to not treat frogs unless they are also showing signs of illness as discussed by Dr. Wright (author editor of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry) in this post here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-4.html#post298624 


Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

This sounds like an Ad for Dr Frye  and a reference comparison to a hooker


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

I betcha Michael requires proof with lab results before he goes on a date.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Ed as for mailing fecals what would you consider the safer route? Mailing to Dr. Frye, Dr. Wright, A Zoo or University that does them regularly and has the best chance of Identifying any issues as well as help with both treatment and meds or would you go into a vet with little or no experience on the matter and trust their judgment?

I understand that they need to be given the chance and Im not agaist actually contacting them and asking and you would be surprised how many in Atlanta said sure I'll take a shot, and then when I started mentioning the common and uncommon stuff they started to debate the need for all these ID's. Ive also had more than a few tell me they do not handle exotics so I was left standing there. Its not about choosing one Dr. over another its about choosing the safest route to ensure my frogs are well covered. Ive offered them contact information as well as mentioned the book on Amphibian Medicine but that actually seems to make them feel belittled.

And as for the treatments Ive had everything from Panacur to Ivermectin as well as other dewormers offered to me by all vets Ive gotten positive results from. But Ive yet to see this field on yes they are positive for so and so but its not to the level treatment is needed. This was from both the Dr's brought up in this thread. 

As for overdose Ive yet to see it in my own experience when following the instructions given by any vet so I cant debate your thought on that as Im unexperieced there. I would like to know since you all have referred to Dr Wright as stating treatment for smaller parasite loads not being needed have you had this happen in your own experience because he has recomended treatment for me everytime Ive had frogs show up with a parasite count of any kind. 

Shawn its no Ad for Dr Frye, there was a thread that popped up actually pushing the Dr's name today which is why I used his name. Its not hard to find I posted in it too. I do find it funny that this is brought up speaking Dr Wrights name is brought up often yet with little issue on it being and ad. Time to move on and focus on the main point man. As for the hooker talk shock factor is all. It makes people remember and think. 

Cheri, Ive been happily married almost a decade now so I think your a bit off on me. Care to toss your 2 cents in on the real subject? Id love to know how you qt and deal with testing your frogs.

Heres a point I wanted to make. You claim mailing fecals is not ideal which I have no doubt an quicker delivery to a vet could be better but if this is the case why do all the vets Dr. Wright included accept fecals mailed from all over and even supply meds and reccoment dosage to the hobby? Seems if it was that big a risk they wouldnt be doing them...............

Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Ed as for mailing fecals what would you consider the safer route? Mailing to Dr. Frye, Dr. Wright, A Zoo or University that does them regularly and has the best chance of Identifying any issues as well as help with both treatment and meds or would you go into a vet with little or no experience on the matter and trust their judgment?
> 
> I understand that they need to be given the chance and Im not agaist actually contacting them and asking and you would be surprised how many in Atlanta said sure I'll take a shot, and then when I started mentioning the common and uncommon stuff they started to debate the need for all these ID's. Ive also had more than a few tell me they do not handle exotics so I was left standing there. Its not about choosing one Dr. over another its about choosing the safest route to ensure my frogs are well covered. Ive offered them contact information as well as mentioned the book on Amphibian Medicine but that actually seems to make them feel belittled.
> 
> ...




If you remember last summer I actually posted a direct correspondence from Dr.Wright stating that if the frogs aren't visibly declining or have white blood cells in their poop he recommends not treating. I can probably dig up the thread but am feeling lazy and sleepy. Also most ARAV sanctioned vets frown on shipping meds via the mail. Keep in mind if you are talking about Dr Wright's book on Amphibian Medicine this is now more than 10 years old and quite a bit of the material in it incuding dosage recommendations is now consider dated at best and potentially dangerous at worst


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Roman Im speaking on direct experience with Dr Wright, I know about the conversation all too well. I still have not in the last few years had any doctor Wright included not reccommend treatment on a fecal that popped positive and Id bet noone else has either that can post direct proof of him saying it. 
My question is why if this is so frowned upon why do they all still happily accept mailed fecals and payment as well as reccommend meds, dosage and send them out? I have no fight with any of them its a question based on them all. 

Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Roman Im speaking on direct experience with Dr Wright, I know about the conversation all too well. *I still have not in the last few years had any doctor Wright included not reccommend treatment on a fecal that popped positive and Id bet noone else has either that can post direct proof of him saying it. *My question is why if this is so frowned upon why do they all still happily accept mailed fecals and payment as well as reccommend meds, dosage and send them out? I have no fight with any of them its a question based on them all.
> 
> Michael


Mike,

I'll politely disagree with you on that as can be seen by this portion of a transcript provided to me by Dr. Wright last year



1826
HOW I TREAT NEMATODES IN FROGS
Kevin Wright, DVM
Arizona Exotic Animal Hospital, LLC
Mesa, AZ
In many cases, frogs appear to be perfectly healthy
despite a high number of nematode ova or larvae being
found regularly in their feces. I believe that in some
cases my prolonged rigorous anthelmintic treatments
and associated sanitation and hygiene management
may have sent frogs into a decline. *Currently I do not
recommend treatment for frogs that are apparently
healthy, eating well and maintaining or gaining weight,
and producing normal feces despite the presence of
nematode ova or larvae per high power field on direct or
flotation fecal parasite exams.* However, if any frogs in
the collection appear unthrifty, there are mortalities with
nematodes implicated or there are otherwise
unexplained mortalities, or direct fecal parasite exams
reveal more than 5 to10 RBCs or 1 to 5 WBCs per high
power field along with nematode ova or larvae, I do
recommend treatment.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Roman Im speaking on direct experience with Dr Wright, I know about the conversation all too well. I still have not in the last few years had any doctor Wright included not reccommend treatment on a fecal that popped positive and Id bet noone else has either that can post direct proof of him saying it.
> *My question is why if this is so frowned upon why do they all still happily accept mailed fecals and payment as well as reccommend meds, dosage and send them out?* I have no fight with any of them its a question based on them all.
> 
> Michael


To answer your other question the reason this is still done is because it carries a very high profit margin, requires little of their time, and at the end of the day it still a business and they are there to make money.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Ed as for mailing fecals what would you consider the safer route? Mailing to Dr. Frye, Dr. Wright, A Zoo or University that does them regularly and has the best chance of Identifying any issues as well as help with both treatment and meds or would you go into a vet with little or no experience on the matter and trust their judgment?


While a vet may not have a lot of experience or any experience with exotics, that doesn't speak to the fact that nematode levels or other obvious parasites are going to show up along with the protozoa, white blood cells, and/or cells from the lining. A vet (actually a vet tech is going to probably going to be doing the reading) may in some cases not be able to identify it immediately but it will be clear to them that there is something wrong. If they are a good vet, they will work with you to identify the parasites (or with other knowledgable vets). How do you expect those vets with experience got it? It wasn't only in 2001 that Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry was published and the vet tech that wrote the parasite chapter in that text learned to diagnose the fecals based on what was learned on the job (she would used to teach it to the vet students). 
How is mailing it better if a whole group of potential problem causing parasites can't be diagnosed because they are no longer present. As an example, if you look in the older texts it was common to see metronidazole used as an "appetite stimulent". The reason this worked with some anorexic reptiles or amphibians wasn't because it actually stimulated the appetite but instead it killed those protozoa that were out of whack and can't be diagnosed on a mailed fecal. 




poison beauties said:


> I understand that they need to be given the chance and Im not agaist actually contacting them and asking and you would be surprised how many in Atlanta said sure I'll take a shot, and then when I started mentioning the common and uncommon stuff they started to debate the need for all these ID's. Ive also had more than a few tell me they do not handle exotics so I was left standing there. Its not about choosing one Dr. over another its about choosing the safest route to ensure my frogs are well covered. Ive offered them contact information as well as mentioned the book on Amphibian Medicine but that actually seems to make them feel belittled.


If you have a vet that is going to argue with you then that defeats the idea of a vet who is willing to work with you. If you have with you a respected source that goes a long way with vets in showing you have a clue. I would suggest bringing Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry with you. 



poison beauties said:


> And as for the treatments Ive had everything from Panacur to Ivermectin as well as other dewormers offered to me by all vets Ive gotten positive results from. But Ive yet to see this field on yes they are positive for so and so but its not to the level treatment is needed. This was from both the Dr's brought up in this thread.


As Kevin noted in the linked thread, he needs to be able to examine the frog. How many of those vets offering treatments were able to also inspect the frog? Did you take that information from Kevin with you on the office visit? If the vets cannot see the frog in front of them, then they cannot make a evaluation of the health status of the frog so instead you get the most conservative path which is to treat the frog. This also protects them from liability.... 



poison beauties said:


> As for overdose Ive yet to see it in my own experience when following the instructions given by any vet so I cant debate your thought on that as Im unexperieced there. I would like to know since you all have referred to Dr Wright as stating treatment for smaller parasite loads not being needed have you had this happen in your own experience because he has recomended treatment for me everytime Ive had frogs show up with a parasite count of any kind.


As I noted above and he states it in the linked post, that he has to be able to physically evaluate the frog. And yes, I've had animals be positive for something and the recommendation be to not treat it at that time but to monitor it, both at work and home primarily with oxyurids (pinworms). 





poison beauties said:


> Heres a point I wanted to make. You claim mailing fecals is not ideal which I have no doubt an quicker delivery to a vet could be better but if this is the case why do all the vets Dr. Wright included accept fecals mailed from all over and even supply meds and reccoment dosage to the hobby? Seems if it was that big a risk they wouldnt be doing them...............
> 
> Michael


Ignoring the monetary issues, if people couldn't mail fecals to them for testing how many people would never get fecals done? As a simple service to the hobby, it is a important thing to do... Whenever a thread pops up suggesting for people to only use amphibian experienced vets, some people will follow through but since it isn't as convient as using the local vet, fewer people still follow up on getting fecals tested... 
the whole thing is slanted to only use a few vets (Dr. Frye is the most suggested vet as opposed to suggesting to look for a ARAV vet close to the person as the first step). 
When I was still at the Zoo, it was not uncommon to have a vet call the zoo to ask questions on treatment of exotics and the Zoo's vets would consult with the vet for no charge...and if there were husbandry questions, they would send the vet to talk to those keepers who had the most knowledge on that taxa..... 
As a routine suggestion to skip over potential local vets (ARAV or not) is not benefiting the hobby as a whole host of issues can be missed. 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

While there is great information here, I think it avoids the main point of the OP. There's no reason to not quarantine, and get fecals done by a trained professional. That's what I got from it anyway....


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

I see a lot of good points mentioned between Ed and Michael and a lot missed as well as I know they are more than willing to agree to disagree. I'll be back to this thread once i can post more in detail without distractions (college work, business) .. Michael's intentions are very good and I know Ed's are as well. An ad for Dr.Frye, hardly.. tho why not?? 

BTW my exotic vet locally doesn't see frogs and refuses, but if your in a pinch and don't want to rely upon the vet techs ( and sometimes i don't, well most of the time unless I'm allowed to see the fecal too as i am also fecaling mammals here with bee pollen diets and roundworm and bee pollen need a trained vet to discern the two IME and even my gutload for my frogs contains bee pollen....( just another example WHY we need them seen by an experienced amphibian vet ) ... and trust me i have met several that do not have the education needed to do the vetting on amphibians of any kind...you can look on the VIN network, but the proof is in the pudding people. It is not as simple as being said. I have seen people put their pets through 6 rounds of dewormers, bleaching cages etc all over a misread fecal... which is WHY we must send out to a lab or to an EXPERIENCED vet. I like to send them out to IDEXX labs in a pinch as any vet will tell you they are amazing, but they are also very expensive. We are talking $70.00 plus vs. $14.00 here.... and with that $14.00 you get a diagnosis too, including the proper meds and dosages. Dr. Frye does also sell other dewormers as I have a slew of them aside from panacur but he will always recommend first trying the one with the least side effects. I know how much spinning down a fecal costs and I know how much Dr.Frye IS NOT making, to ever say there is ever an "ad" for him is silly! He does it out of passion for this hobby folks... Not because he is making any $ as i assure you that is a 100.00 office visit atleast you are bypassing... and have them do it as they do it alllll the time and can accurately diagnose such small fecals as can IDEXX labs... but with IDEXX lets face it, for most unless you are looking for some crazy worm like the deadly Baylis roundworm for humans..... or giardia , the IDEXX lab becomes almost moot. Your still sending out of the office by doing so. Lets face it, does it not already take 1 gram of fecal, technically speaking, to get the most reliable result??? Well in frogs we are not going to get that much, so why not send the fecals to vets with experience?? We are working with turds sometimes the size of this ---->"o". A truly reliable result would be to take several fecals and group it into one from the same viv ( by doing so you may even catch a cyst that you wouldn't always catch since they are shed in cycles, hence the reason why it is prudent to do three consecutive fecals in a 90 day period for QT and do it several weeks apart) .... refrigerate before sending out the day before and send it to someone like Dr.frye or Dr.wright. So the best thing to do if you don't, won't , or choose not to (as I would rather send mine out to Dr.Frye , yup said it again... please don't get that confused with an "ad"), is to have a vet willing to see a frog send out an IDEXX lab fecal. 

I will speak forwardly and say without him in the hobby (Dr.Frye) , a lot of us would have been at a standstill and lost a lot of frogs opposed to saving them and have meds on hand for when he prescribes their use... I have a great respect for both vets, Dr.Frye is closer to me which means less transit time, he is very responsive and thorough and professional... as is Dr. Wright but Dr. Wright is way down in AZ, so that is that. Dr. Wright also can not get you the meds you need after diagnosis which makes it kind of silly then to even go there for fecals. He however has a lot of other tests and PCR labs he works with that can be beneficial to the hobby aside from fecals. Why so much disrespect for someone with so much passion that has offered his services not for the $ but for the love of it, is beyond me.... I bet all of our long time members have had frogs diagnosed and saved by him. I wish a little more respect was shown for someone s amazing as he has been to this hobby. The lack of respect truly disgusts me. 

If i need a fecal now and i dont want to wait and won't mind paying the much larger cost, i'll send it out to IDEXX, the problem lies however in getting that diagnosis treated and the cost of such a lab. Will Dr. Frye treat an IDEXX fecal report, I would assume so, but I don't want to speak for him out of respect for him. BUT, that IDEXX will take 1-3 days to get the results, then you'll have to pick those records up and get them to Dr.Frye for example causing a lot of time and $ that is unnecessary, it makes it a lot more difficult if he isn't there looking at it. I know at my exotic vets, I read the fecal, then the tech confirms , and THEN the vet confirms. three pairs of eyes to make the final call aka diagnosis. 

I love both of you , and its hard when you like two very intelligent/passionate people, but truly different people and I respect them and know them to say what is on their mind. Do I personally believe pinworms in QT should go untreated and in fact aid in digestion for example??? Well i certainly feel pinworms are a parasite for a reason hence why we need anti-parasitic meds to treat, a frog could become stressed with an overload and who is to say unless you fecal daily if there is an overload or not? It is just not feasible. And yes i agree, like a lot of parasites might do... they likely do aid in digestion Ed, but i don't agree to potentially harm either then or in future any amphibian when they can be safely treated and eradicated. Why not treat it before while in QT and get it out of the way?? If they could not be treated, then it'd be a whole different story. There are several relatively safe meds out there people and two mentioned vets that will diagnose and one for sure listed that will also treat these nasties guys. Pinworms or any worm has got to be uncomfortable. It surely doesn't go without treatment for humans not in a 3rd world country here for obvious reasons. Can anyone assure me that a frog with a low count of pinworms in fact is not stressed and uncomfortable from them?? Also lets not get me going on the aspect that they are zoonotic to humans and other animals and are not species specific. QT, fecal , and treat everything needing treating people. I would rather not get frogs in the mail with pinworms, it'll keep me from getting them and my frog and that is just a preference BUT i certainly know its not feasible to not ever get a frog in clean and that is why we should always fecal, quarantine and treat if necessary IMO.  

edit: Dr. Frye has diagnosed overloads of protozoa for me in a frog with bloody fecals just for the record. no parasites, just needed some metronidazole and all was good. It was likely a shipping stressor that brought it about to be noticed. 

something good for this hobby would be to list all vets in each state willing to diagnose and treat amphibians... not just reptiles or birds etc. Then just add onto this liost as it grows through the years. That way, people can choose someone as experienced as Dr.Frye and Dr.Wright or to take a chance at a vet locally. My best advice has always been to go with those that have been looking at frog feces for a long time and those would be the two i mentioned. I have had to school my zoo vet here many times, it makes me feel like I am paying to diagnose myself which makes the visit moot. I see no issue with sending your fecals out to the nearest of the two vets or whom you feel comfy with. Dr.Wright also requires a fee to become a client whereas Dr.Frye doesn't and is on top of his correspondences with you and questions you may have. There is no harm in suggesting one vet over another. Do I feel either are better educationally speaking or talking as far as Experience? No. I believe them both to know what the heck they are doing. I do believe Dr.Frye may have a much deeper passion for amphibians but without asking both I do not know. I just know how many frogs of mine have been saved, diagnosed, and treated by Dr.Frye. Why is it that mentioning his name we all got to get our panties in a wad? 

also why can't one get meds that allow for better targeted dosing? you certainly can with the two mentioned vets. I brought my frog in once to a vet and he weighed the frog and guess who we were chasing that day. the frog! common sense in amphibians is lacking. weigh a container, put frog in, subtract the container's weight and voila! instead said frog was jumping all over god knows what in a vets office. perhaps my vetting is skewed by that incidence but he was a vet consulting with Dr.Wright however extremely inexperienced. Bringing a book and all due respect as that is an amazing book, and I truly mean that, will not educate a vet on amphibians , atleast not on the level this hobby may need IMHO. sorry for any typos, I replied super fast to get it out there. 

You know as an outside observer, what I am seeing Michael do is trying to better the hobby by pushing common practice. I may not be up for debate here as I have a ton of studying to do but wnated to add my two cents that I believe we do need more QT and testing and it needs to be pushed rather than giving options out there why a frog shouldn't be treated, by all means if the vet says treat, please treat. I know i would not want to send out any frogs that were never quarantined to begin with and treated if necessary.  I certainly respect Ed very much so as I do Michael and both the vets mentioned and many people. I am more than willing also to be someone that can agree to disagree. happy frogging


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I may be mistaken here, but I thought the last time I contacted Dr Wright, he was not doing 'out of state' prescription med writing. Only to AZ residents, I suspected bc he has an AZ license.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> I may be mistaken here, but I thought the last time I contacted Dr Wright, he was not doing 'out of state' prescription med writing. Only to AZ residents, I suspected bc he has an AZ license.


Arizona state law prohibits him from perscribing drugs and mailing them out of state but if you have a local vet that consulted with him, there isn't anything barring the local vet from providing the perscription or the medication. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmackoftheGods said:


> While there is great information here, I think it avoids the main point of the OP. There's no reason to not quarantine, and get fecals done by a trained professional. That's what I got from it anyway....


I'm certainly not arguing against quarantining frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm going to edit this down a bit.. 



kristy55303 said:


> even my gutload for my frogs contains bee pollen....( just another example WHY we need them seen by an experienced amphibian vet )


I'm not sure why even an experienced amphibian vet (or vet tech) is going to automatically be able to distinguish between pollen and a parasite as opposed to a vet or vet tech who commonly works with other species. The whole pollen issue is part of the discussion that needs to occur with the staff before the fecal is run. If they know that there is something that can cause a misidentification then they can watch for it.

As for whether or not to let the vet tech read the fecal, I am usually more comfortable with the vet tech doing it if they have been doing it for awhile than the vet who may only do it occasionally. 



kristy55303 said:


> .. and trust me i have met several that do not have the education needed to do the vetting on amphibians of any kind...you can look on the VIN network, but the proof is in the pudding people. It is not as simple as being said. I have seen people put their pets through 6 rounds of dewormers, bleaching cages etc all over a misread fecal... which is WHY we must send out to a lab or to an EXPERIENCED vet.


As with anything you can get good vets and bad vets. Bad vets even if they have experience with amphibians will end up going badly. A good vet that is willing to work with you is what you want regardless if they are an amphibian guru or not. But this is still getting away from the point that there are a lot of vets out there besided Dr. Frye and Kevin that are ARAV members with experience and getting a fecal read as soon as possible is better than getting one read a few days later after passing through the mail system unrefrigerated. 



kristy55303 said:


> I like to send them out to IDEXX labs in a pinch as any vet will tell you they are amazing, but they are also very expensive. We are talking $70.00 plus vs. $14.00 here.... and with that $14.00 you get a diagnosis too, including the proper meds and dosages. Dr. Frye does also sell other dewormers as I have a slew of them aside from panacur but he will always recommend first trying the one with the least side effects.


The risk of side effects only speaks to one side of the dosing issue. It refers to overdosing and animals that are sensitive to a specific drug while ignoring the potential risks of underdosing. Both of these are best addressed by having a understanding of the drug and it's effects as well as being able to target the dosage to the animal so it is not underdosed or overdosed. Dusting feeder insects is an inexact method which is why the long treatment period is required versus targeted dosing via a drop on the back or tubing the frog (if large enough). 




kristy55303 said:


> Lets face it, does it not already take 1 gram of fecal, technically speaking, to get the most reliable result??? Well in frogs we are not going to get that much, so why not send the fecals to vets with experience?? We are working with turds sometimes the size of this ---->"o". A truly reliable result would be to take several fecals and group it into one from the same viv ( by doing so you may even catch a cyst that you wouldn't always catch since they are shed in cycles, hence the reason why it is prudent to do three consecutive fecals in a 90 day period for QT and do it several weeks apart)


Combining several fecals can help locate a parasite in the enclosure but again, the fresher the fecal is when read the better the representation it is to what is going on in the frog. 

In the literature a 90 quarantine period is not recommended as being necessary for anurans. That time period is typically reserved for snakes (and for those at greatest risk of paramyxovirus 120 days). For anurans, the standard suggestion is thirty days or three clean fecals which ever is longer with the fecals being taken seven days apart. I'm not sure where the 90 day suggestion originated for anurans but it is considered to be excessive in instutional settings as well as the literature and maybe a significant stressor on the frog if they are housed in a set-up that allows for ready collection of uncontaminated fecals. 




kristy55303 said:


> It is just not feasible. And yes i agree, like a lot of parasites might do... they likely do aid in digestion Ed, but i don't agree to potentially harm either then or in future any amphibian when they can be safely treated and eradicated. Why not treat it before while in QT and get it out of the way?? If they could not be treated, then it'd be a whole different story.


If the frog is healthy and the oxyurid is acting as a commensual (and there is ample evidence in the literature that oxyurids are commensuals in healthy herps including anurans), why would you eliminate something that is beneficial to the frog? The argument you are presenting is that treatment is less risky for the frog than allowing a worm that could at some theoretical point be a parasite and when the animal is healthy has been demonstrated to help digest fiberous particles in multiple taxa.. To rephrase this argument to use people and gut bacteria, your argument would have a person should taking massive dosages of antibiotics to elimate gut bacteria because they have been shown to infect people and even cause death. We know that the reason this isn't done is because those same bacteria are normally beneficial if the person is healthy. The above position ignores all of the potential benefits to the organism when the the organism is healthy. 




kristy55303 said:


> Can anyone assure me that a frog with a low count of pinworms in fact is not stressed and uncomfortable from them?? Also lets not get me going on the aspect that they are zoonotic to humans and other animals and are not species specific.


Do you have proof that a frog with a low count of pinworms is uncomfortable and stressed? I am asking this because a lack of proof is not proof that it is a problem for the frog. 

Do you have proof that the oxyurids found in frogs are a zoonotic for humans? 




kristy55303 said:


> edit: Dr. Frye has diagnosed overloads of protozoa for me in a frog with bloody fecals just for the record. no parasites, just needed some metronidazole and all was good. It was likely a shipping stressor that brought it about to be noticed.


This does not mean that it will happen the next time.. as it depends on the protozoa (as coccidian are protozoa). 




kristy55303 said:


> You know as an outside observer, what I am seeing Michael do is trying to better the hobby by pushing common practice.


If you look at my history of suggestions on this topic, I have repeatedly suggested fecals so people have at least an idea of what is going on in thier tanks and unless there is an extreme reason consistently advocate quaranting the frogs. I have also been clear on swapping cuttings from frog enclosures or giving/selling them to others to place them in thier frog enclosures.. 
With the whole treatment issue, I am pointing out that there is a paradigm shift occuring on what is considered bad for the frogs. It is no longer as black and white as is being presented or was historically and we should be aware that this shift is occuring and that the historical position may not be the best one for the frogs, as with other animals, it needs to be made on a case by case basis in consultation with a vet. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

My input into this is that I recommend that people look for a vet who can treat their frogs, before they decide there isn't one (not meant for the folks on this thread but rather the folks who are only reading it).

I decided that there wasn't one in my area and started treating my frogs through mail order. Eventually I decided to actually look for a vet, locally, and found a very good one. 

Not long ago, I was in contact with our State Veterinary Diagnostic and Pathology lab. Primarily they test and diagnose problems with livestock, but, they can, and do, run all sorts of tests. Also, they highly recommended this local vet I found, for all exotics, which made me very happy. 

Are there state veterinary diagnostic and pathology labs in every state? That might be a place to contact for fecals and/or recommendations of vets if you haven't found one. 

Anyway, anyone who is willing to drive to Raleigh for treatment for their animals, PM me and I'll send you the info on the local vet.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Here is a link to the ARAV member directory where one can find a Reptile and Amphibian Vet close to them.

ARAV


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

frogface said:


> My input into this is that I recommend that people look for a vet who can treat their frogs, before they decide there isn't one (not meant for the folks on this thread but rather the folks who are only reading it).


Im all for this, But there is an issue with thinking a vet who isnt experienced in this could become able to from glancing over a book. Im sure there are many vets who can do this and being I lived in ATL right around ABG, Atlanta Zoo, Aquarium and more I was surprised at how few I found. Its just a matter finding them. Many herp vets dislike working with amphibians I dont know why. 

Roman those examples dont appear to be Dr Wright telling you your dart frog fecal is positive for hookworms or whatever and going on to mention that treatment isnt needed. Ive never heard this from a vet at all and I dont know if the literature he published is based directly on darts or what but Ive been reccommended treatment everytime. I dont want to push this any further as its just a thread meant to push the subject of quarantine and testing. I dont know how many know what a true qt is. 3 weeks and a test or two dont do it. 

If he has a serious issue with mailed in fecals he and other vets should stop accepting them. Its nowhere neer the profit you think it is.


Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Im all for this, But there is an issue with thinking a vet who isnt experienced in this could become able to from glancing over a book. Im sure there are many vets who can do this and being I lived in ATL right around ABG, Atlanta Zoo, Aquarium and more I was surprised at how few I found. Its just a matter finding them. Many herp vets dislike working with amphibians I dont know why.
> 
> *Roman those examples dont appear to be Dr Wright telling you your dart frog fecal is positive for hookworms or whatever and going on to mention that treatment isnt needed. Ive never heard this from a vet at all and I dont know if the literature he published is based directly on darts or what but Ive been reccommended treatment everytime. I dont want to push this any further as its just a thread meant to push the subject of quarantine and testing. I dont know how many know what a true qt is. 3 weeks and a test or two dont do it.
> 
> ...


Yes Dr Wright has told me both verbally and via e-mail that his current protocol is to only treat animals that are losing weight or have white blood cells in their poop. This was recommended for darts as well as other vertebrates. Did you consider that the recommendations you have been given were based on Dr. Wright's work published in 2001 and he has learned more and revised his recommendations since then?

As for the profit aspect yoy would be surprised at what people can make on doing three diagnosis per tank, meds, and emergency test kits when multiplied by the number of people utilizing their services. When ever some one tells you that they are not it for the money, they usually are


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Im all for this, But there is an issue with thinking a vet who isnt experienced in this could become able to from glancing over a book. Im sure there are many vets who can do this and being I lived in ATL right around ABG, Atlanta Zoo, Aquarium and more I was surprised at how few I found. Its just a matter finding them. Many herp vets dislike working with amphibians I dont know why.


The issue is that the vet would be using the reference pictures to match up parasites seen on the float. They already have a good handle on how to run a fecal..and on what many parasites look like in general, all that is needed is to be able to identify the parasites. How do you think amphibian vets initially learned to identify the parasites? A reference text is used.. just like how people who take microbiology courses learn to use identify bacteria genera based on structure and staining.... 

Ed


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I understand it takes learning to do this, And the book can help but isnt this something you would want to the vet to be educated and experienced in. Seems to me if they wanted to take this on they would say yes but let me see what I can do about getting some training and go the responsible route rather than risk messing up. They are normally specialized in other species like dogs, cats, farm animals and birds not frogs so Im sorry I just dont agree to give them their first go with my frogs. Atleast not without testing with someone else as well. 

Would you go to a dermatologist for breathing issues and ask them to look at a book and see if they can figure out whats wrong? I dont mean to be an ass Ed but i think there needs to be a comfort level for both parties involved after all it was stated here some vets go against their own judgements on the matter and take mailed fecals for the money. Why wouldnt a local vet?


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

I apologize ahead of time if I come across as anything negative. I'm not trying to be at all, but sarcasm is hard to display in writing.

As a human medical professional, I am very much on one end of this discussion's spectrum. We run businesses, when it all boils down. Doing a fecal is relatively quick and easy. Yeah it doesn't cost much for the patient, but it doesn't take much for the doctor if they are already set up for it. It probably takes 5 minutes of his time, and $1 in supplies. Most vets probably aren't set up for running masses of fecals, and so find it not worth their time. Then there is the whole thing about professional liability... they don't know if the fecals they are getting in the mail are from some crazy internet-educated pet owner (who has talked with their breeders and suppliers about weird diseases and cheaper cures) will not be content with their diagnosis and cause more pain than the scant few bucks the fecal will bring in. This scenario is much more common than you might think, I didn't make up this up. Also, bringing in your own references to the vet office can be a quick way for the vet to form an unfavorable opinion of you. Be very careful about doing it. Peer reviewed scientific articles and reference manuals can be ok IF YOU ALREADY HAVE A WORKING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE VET, but it is important to remember that they are actually the ones with the medical license.

Also, using a reference text is kiiiiiind of a good thing to do. Just because someone needs to use a reference to do something doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing! They aren't learning on the spot. A veterinarian's/technician's education is so much more than memorization and knowing exactly what things are. Vet school has more than just parasitology 101  A medical education is probably less mysterious and more practical than you think.

Oh and for the record, a dermatologist might not be able to show you on paper exactly what the name of the obscure respiratory disease that you have is offhand, but I guarantee that he would know how to figure it out and what to do.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the past, when I've used vets without a lot of experience in treating exotics, I offered to loan them some of my reference books if they needed it and didn't have a negative interaction with the vets but that could have also been due to my background since I worked as a herp zookeeper for a long time... they would borrow the references a couple of times and then decide that they wanted them for thier own library and purchase them. 

If you just show up at a vet's place with the fecal lugging a tome with you without any warning, I can easily see how it would create a negative impression but if you set up some time ahead of time to meet with them and politely let them know they can borrow the books from you if they don't have them, you can often get a different response. It is all part of asking the vet to help you. You are asking to help them not shoving information into thier face. 

When we moved down here in Southern NJ, we made appointments at several vets to meet with them briefly and see if thier style was one we were comfortable with and if they would accomedate some of our concerns and we had a good rapport with several vets and settled on one who suits us well and he is good with our animals and knows he can ask us odd things without getting odd looks. He also respects that we know a lot about animals from our careers and that we are exposed to a lot of medical information as laypeople and takes our concerns and suggestions seriously. 

Ed


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