# Sick frog (probably bloat) with PICS, please help



## Gaua

Hi all,

I've started recently with dendrobates, though my viv has been set for six months, waiting for the frogs (I wasn't able to find the species I wanted). My first little ones are four _Ranitomeya _(formerly known as Dendrobates) _imitator _red. 


I think I have two males and two females, at least it's sure I have one male, he sings all day! The male doesn't "like" one of the other frogs, he jumps on it (I think it's another male), but sings to the other two (he likes specially the bigger one, he sleeps always with it).


They seemed to eat well (drosophila hydei and melanogaster) or at least that was what I thought: I didn't see them all eating every day.


But today I noticed one of the frogs (the one I think to be a female, the smaller one) hasn't moved from the top corner for two days ... So I made it move to get a better look, and I realised it had a swollen throat ....


I took it out of the viv to get some pics of it:
































I also think its belly it is a bit bloated, but it`s not quite as evident as on its throat ...




What could that be? What can I do??


Thanks a lot


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## Julio

how long has the fog been like that? it looks like is just fat to me.


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## Raymond

I'm pretty sure that's not just fat. I had something similar happen to one of my tincs. Same symptoms, lethargic, didn't move, and had a swollen throat. 

To this day, I have no idea what was wrong. For treatment, I was able to get a mix of Amphibian Ringers Solution mixed up and soaked the frog. I also treated with Baytril and Metronidazole. The frog made a recovery, and has been fine for many months now.


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## Gaua

The frog has been like that only for two days, it used to walk around the viv before that ...

I'm now sure that it isn't fat, it is liquid what it has under the skin of the throat, and also in the belly. I took it out of the viv and now I have it in a one gallon vertical plastic jar, with wet tissue paper (sorry, I don't know how to say it) and a live plant.
I try to keep it at 27ºC during the day, and at 20ºC at night ...




> For treatment, I was able to get a mix of Amphibian Ringers Solution mixed up and soaked the frog.


 I'll go right know to a drugstore to see if I can get the products to make the Amphibian Ringer Solution ... Yesterday, a friend sent me a scanned page of an amphibian disease book about bloat. It said bloat can be caused by the use of low mineral content water, and I suspect that could be my problem. 
The other causes were liver and kidney damage, and for that there's no treatment.

The author suggested bath in slightly hipertonic Amphibian Ringer solution (dilution in 900 ml of water instead of 1000 ml) or in salt water (8-10 gr. of salt per litre). Do you think I should try that, or the normal Amphibian Ringer (if I can get it)?? If not, I would have to try salt water ...



> I also treated with Baytril and Metronidazole.


Please, tell me how you used those drugs .... pills, liquid??


Thanks a lot ...


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## Ed

"Bloat" is caused by a lot of things which is why it is a symptom and not really a disease. It can be caused by infections (parasites or bacteria), starvation, oversupplementing of vitamin D3 (liver damage), damage to the kidney from various items (oversupplementing, parasites, dehydration...)... and this is just a start on the list... 

It can be caused by trapping the frog in a solution of hypotonic water (the frog has to be unable to get out of the container so it cannot adjust its osmotic potential).. so if you are concerned about misting spraying with mineral deficient water, that is not a concern. 

You can get ARS from Fisher Scientific see this care sheet http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22383 

Bloat is not necessarily incurable. You need to do supportive therapy on the frog and determine the cause. 
Typically metronidazole is not used in the treatment of bloat, and an overdose can cause significant problems for the frog. See your vet to get effective antibiotics. Baytril appears to be heading on the way out as a drug of choice as more and more pathogens are becoming resistant to it.

Ed


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## Gaua

I know bloat is just a symptom, so the problem is to know what the cause is ....

I'll try to do the ringer solution by myself, I finally got the products in a drug store, I'll ask them to weight the products ...

The Amphibian ringer solution is isotonic, isn't it? In the book suggested using slightly hypertonic solution (using 900 ml of water instead of 1 litre, to help the osmotic preasure). The recipe was just the same.

I'll try calcium gluconate also (I can get it in the hospital where I work) ...


Should I try antibiotics?? I can get Panacur and Levacol (for parasites), Baytril is more difficult to get, ... but for all those things I do need to know doses ...



Thanks a lot!


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## Gaua

I finally got all the products and I made the Amphibian Ringers Solution ...

I also gave it a short bath in calcium gluconate 2%, and then I soaked the paper towels with the ringer solution, and put it again in its plastic home.

I have done what was in my hands .... to gave it antibiotics or parasiticides, I need your help, nobody has told me how to use them, neither the dose ...


Thanks!

PS: The frog is even more bloated than yesterday ...


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## Gaua

Hi again ...

Finally I decided to prove everything to save the frog ... I gave it a bath in Amphibian Ringer Solution, to help it recover electrolytes .... Then I kept it alive with drops of calcium gluconate (2% solution) every day. I gave it a bath with metronidazole (250 mg in 200 ml of water, for one whole day, that was an expert's advice). The frog was still bloated, so I started with drops of Panacur solution (100 mg/ml), a drop on its back-bottom. 

As the frog was still bloated, I risked and decided to do what I did once to my adult Xenopus, extract the liquid with a syringe and needle. It was very difficult, because the frog was just like my thumbnail, but I finally got the excess of liquid out of it with an insulin syringe.

I gave it again a drop of Panacur, and surprisingly, the frog started eating again. It's no longer bloated ... and today it has eaten 5 fruitflies .... 


I'll tell you if it gets worse or better ....


Thanks!


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## drbp

Wow, I wouldn't have thought that one could extract anything with a syringe. I always thought that bloat is akin to extravascular fluid accumulation (the same way people get swollen all over when they get sick or traumatized). Kind of makes me rethink this notion. Was the fluid that you extracted in a pocket of some kind or did you have to poke your PDF multiple times in different locations?

-ben


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## Ed

With bloated amphibians, the fluid can be found in sufficient concentration in the space between organs in the body cavity to allow extraction via a syringe. 

If it is having a problem with osmoregulation then do not be surprised if the problem reoccures. 

Just as further info.... ARS is a supportive treatment that should be done continously until the problem resolves not as an occasional or short lived treatment unless you are using a hypertonic solution. 


Ed


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## Gaua

> Was the fluid that you extracted in a pocket of some kind or did you have to poke your PDF multiple times in different locations?


 Yes, I extracted 0,1 ml from each leg (I put the frog with its belly up) and from the belly. I probably got no more than 0,4 ml of fluid ...

With my Xenopus it was much easier (I did just the same) ... I used a larger needle, and they were easier to handle. They were about the size of a hand ...





> If it is having a problem with osmoregulation then do not be surprised if the problem reoccures.


That's right .... I also thinked about that ... and I knew I was only treating the sympton (bloat) nor the cause ... I only wanted to help it, it was even more bloated than in the picture.



> Just as further info.... ARS is a supportive treatment that should be done continously until the problem resolves not as an occasional or short lived treatment unless you are using a hypertonic solution.


I'm very interested in that ... should I use the ARS again, and for how long??
I gave it a bath yesterday, but for other reason, I found it OUT of the vivarium, nearly dry (it probably had jumped out when I opened the door to feed them, and I didn't see it) .... poor little one, first sick, then dehidrated ....

The bath in ARS helped it a lot, and the next day it was eating again ....


What I want to know is how to use the ARS normally, and for how long (bath time).


Thanks a lot!


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## drbp

> With bloated amphibians, the fluid can be found in sufficient concentration in the space between organs in the body cavity to allow extraction via a syringe.


That's interesting Ed. I suppose this is akin to either intra-abdominal ascites (sometimes caused by liver issues) or maybe pleural effusions (caused by cardiac or pulmonary issues) in people. At times we human doctors drain these things but, again, this treats the symptom, not the disease...Doesn't hit the source. Then again (strictly speaking about human medical problems) there is an ever-increasing body of literature that supports treating our systemic response to infection or illness and finding better outcomes. I'm sure that bloat is a general systemic response to illness.



> Yes, I extracted 0,1 ml from each leg (I put the frog with its belly up) and from the belly. I probably got no more than 0,4 ml of fluid


I wonder what kind of pocket you found in the legs? Was it the same as the body cavity fluid? I would think that the extraction of fluid from the body cavity would be more therapeutic than the legs. Thoughts anyone?

-ben


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## Ed

drbp said:


> At times we human doctors drain these things but, again, this treats the symptom, not the disease...Doesn't hit the source. Then again (strictly speaking about human medical problems) there is an ever-increasing body of literature that supports treating our systemic response to infection or illness and finding better outcomes. I'm sure that bloat is a general systemic response to illness.
> -ben


Hi Ben,

Bloat is a symptom to a potential host of causes.. it can be caused by everything from poor husbandry (as occasionally seen in aquatic amphibians and poor water quality) techniques to infections to hypervitaminosis and other potential causes...to combinations of these causes.... 
Typically it is treated along with the other items as part of a quality of life issue and to reduce stress on the frogs (as stress can cause significant immunesuppression). 




> Yes, I extracted 0,1 ml from each leg (I put the frog with its belly up) and from the belly. I probably got no more than 0,4 ml of fluid


I wonder what kind of pocket you found in the legs? Was it the same as the body cavity fluid? I would think that the extraction of fluid from the body cavity would be more therapeutic than the legs. Thoughts anyone?

-ben[/quote]

I wonder if the fluid removed was from the circulating lymph system....? 

Ed


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## Ed

Gaua said:


> If it is having a problem with osmoregulation then do not be surprised if the problem reoccures.
> 
> 
> 
> That's right .... I also thinked about that ... and I knew I was only treating the sympton (bloat) nor the cause ... I only wanted to help it, it was even more bloated than in the picture. [quote:3qcejoyc]
> 
> Was the bloat progressing in the torso or in the limbs? The picture shows a distended throat area but bloat typically affects the abdominal area first and then as fluid retention increases spreads to other areas of the frog.
> Unless there has been some other changes, I still am sceptical about it being bloat.
> Has it been examined to rule out a localized infection?
> 
> 
> 
> Gaua said:
> 
> 
> 
> What I want to know is how to use the ARS normally, and for how long (bath time).
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

[/quote:3qcejoyc]

Isotonic ringers should be used 24 hours a day and be changed daily until the amphibian recovers or dies. With terrestrial amphibians this can be accomplished by placing it on paper towels moistened with ARS. 

If using hypertonic then the amphibian is typically bathed for about an hour in the hypertonic solution unless directed otherwise by the vet. 

Ed


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## Gaua

> I'm sure that bloat is a general systemic response to illness.


I agree with you  ... maybe my frog develop that in reponse to a parasite attack, that would explain why it got a little better with the Panacur, but I'm not really sure. 

If I hadn't had any experience with the Xenopus, I think I wouldn't have tried the extraction of the fluid. 
I'll try to explain what I found: the fluid extracted from the legs was similar to the extracted from the body (clear, transparent, slightly yellowish). In the pics the frog was only a little bloated, mainly in the throat, but also the belly.
But a few days later, it was whole bloated, as you say, it was just like a ball, and also the legs were bloated. I'm sorry I could not take any pics of it in that moment.


I agree with drbp that puncturing the belly would be more therapeutic than puncturing the legs. In my experience with the Xenopus, I discovered that the belly comunicates with the thighs, there may be a small duct or something, as in humans. As belly and thighs are bloated, if you extract liquid from the thighs, a few minutes later (not instantaneusly), some of the belly fluid goes to the thighs, and the frog aspect is much better, the liquid doesn't press the body as it was doing before. It's not really necessary to puncture the belly, because it's very risky.

But in my case, the little frog had more liquid in the belly than in the thighs, dendrobates have very thin legs (Xenopus have really huge thighs), so I realised that I needed to puncture also the belly. It's very very risky, I'm talking about a thumbnail size frog, a mistake would have hurt a muscle, a main artery or even get through the bone or the whole leg very easily. 




> I wonder if the fluid removed was from the circulating lymph system....?


 The fluid was free, under the skin but above the muscle, that's why I was able to extract it.
It wasn't like when humans have aedema, that is the cells which are bloated .... in this frog and in the Xenopus, there was free fluid under the skin.

So if you are able to get through the skin with a needle, but not so deep to touch muscle or an artery or a bone, you can easily extract the fluid without hurting the frog. You have to puncture both thighs to extract the fluid from the legs, but with one only punction of the belly (in the side, far away from vital organs) you can extract the liquid of the belly.

You have to put the frog in a wet paper towel with its legs up, in order to prevent it from jumping (when you have a needle that becomes very dangerous). I kept the frog calm with a piece of wet paper towel covering front legs, head and eyes.


Here you have a pic of one of the bloated Xenopus I had, before the extraction of the liquid: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/ ... enopus.jpg

and after: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/ ... -after.jpg



Byes!


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## Gaua

> Isotonic ringers should be used 24 hours a day and be changed daily until the amphibian recovers or dies. With terrestrial amphibians this can be accomplished by placing it on paper towels moistened with ARS.
> 
> If using hypertonic then the amphibian is typically bathed for about an hour in the hypertonic solution unless directed otherwise by the vet.
> 
> Ed


So I think I did a bit well, I kept the frog in a plastic jar with paper towel moistened with ARS for 4-5 days (I'm not really sure), changing it everyday; then, when it became more bloated, I extracted the liquid and put it again in the jar, continued with the Panacur and calcium gluconate.

As the frog didn't became bloated again, I decided to put it again in the vivarium, and it started eating again.


If I can, I'll take tomorrow a pic of it ....


Thanks a lot, now I know how to use the ARS. 
I'll keep you informed ....


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## drbp

Those are great pictures Gaua. It's interesting to see not only a decrease in skin tension in the hind legs but also, the forlimbs seem to be a little less tight as well. I haven't dissected a frog since I was a kid and hopefully I won't get a chance to anytime soon (as it would mean that I lost one of my PDFs) but if I do, I'm sure I'll check out this cavity and it's extension.

Where did you learn about aspiration of your Xenopus to treat bloat. I've been searching different databases and I can't seem to find anything. It almost seems as if people are just using their frogs for biologic research and are more interested in DNA sequencing and coding than in the husbandry of their frogs...oh, that's right, they are.  :wink: .





> I wonder if the fluid removed was from the circulating lymph system....?


Ed-I have to think that communication with the body cavity is a much more reasonable answer than aspiration of "circulating lymph". That just doesn't seem very likely and, if the lymphatic system was that overloaded, you would expect to see the bloat extend and probably start far off in the distal extremities rather than centrally.


I don't know why, but I just think this is a fascinating topic and it would be great if there were some studies that could actually help us with our husbandry rather than a bunch of anecdotal comments here and there. I guess it will probably never happen since there are few people interested and those who have expertise in husbandry aren't likely to intentionally cause bloat so that they can study the treatment options.

-ben


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## Gaua

I'm glad you liked the pictures ...


> It's interesting to see not only a decrease in skin tension in the hind legs but also, the forlimbs seem to be a little less tight as well


Yes, yes, that's what I wanted to explain: the cavities are somehow connected, legs and arms have a small duct that communicates with the body. I only punctured both thighs not the belly. The fluid was under the skin and over the muscle, and as the picture shows, the skin was loose after the extraction: the pressure of the fluid had distended it.




> Where did you learn about aspiration of your Xenopus to treat bloat


Nowhere! As you say, all information you can find in internet about Xenopus is genetics and experiments with the eggs, development and so on. They're like laboratory mice ...

I decided to do it by myself ... I'm a nurse, so that helped: I had access to syringes and needles. In the xenopus case, I did not extract the liquid with a syringe, I chose the bigger needle I had, punctured the skin to get through it, and as the hole was big (1 mm wide), I pressed the bloated leg with my fingers to drain the fluid out. I had tried to extract with syringe and needle, but the frog was moving all time and the needle was out most time.
That's why I decided to make a hole with a bigger needle and press with my fingers. It was very effective, as the pic shows ...
With the imitator, I couldn't do that, it's imposible physically to press such a small leg ....


If I hadn't had the experience with the Xenopus, I wouldn't have tried with the imitator. When puncturing another Xenopus, I got through a main superficial vein, and it started bleeding. The haemorrage stopped quickly, but in a thumbnail frog, although using an insulin syringe, that could have hurt or get through the whole leg ... The experience with the Xenopus showed me where the safest area is, and I did not have any problems with the imitator ....


I have a frozen small tinctorius which died during the journey. I'll try and open it to get more information of their anatomy ....



Thanks a lot ....


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## Gaua

> Was the bloat progressing in the torso or in the limbs? The picture shows a distended throat area but bloat typically affects the abdominal area first and then as fluid retention increases spreads to other areas of the frog.
> Unless there has been some other changes, I still am sceptical about it being bloat.


I found some information here http://www.geocities.com/inibico/updates.html that confirms that it was bloat, and as in my frog, the first sign is a swollen throat: 



> The diagnosis is a fast swelling of the body and to a lesser degree of the limbs. The frogs may survive a few days but die finally if no treatment starts! It is still to check, if the faster acting bloating disease observed in E. pongoensis is of similar origin! To check if a frog acquired this disease we have to look at the gular area: if the throat is inflated or swollen, the frog has the disease



Here you have a pic of the frog, today has eaten some fruitflies ... at least, it has recovered appetite. It hasn't became bloated again.













As you see, the poor little one has a strange colour, its skin was very damaged when (once recovered) it escaped from the viv and I found it, miracleously alive, 8 hours after. Its skin was dry and dirty. I soaked it in ARS, and recovered very well.


Byes!


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## Ed

drbp said:


> Ed-I have to think that communication with the body cavity is a much more reasonable answer than aspiration of "circulating lymph". That just doesn't seem very likely and, if the lymphatic system was that overloaded, you would expect to see the bloat extend and probably start far off in the distal extremities rather than centrally.
> 
> 
> I don't know why, but I just think this is a fascinating topic and it would be great if there were some studies that could actually help us with our husbandry rather than a bunch of anecdotal comments here and there. I guess it will probably never happen since there are few people interested and those who have expertise in husbandry aren't likely to intentionally cause bloat so that they can study the treatment options.
> 
> -ben


Hi Ben,

If you are interested in amphibian medicine then you should invest in Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry, Krieger Press, 2001 and some of the more updated information in Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Mader. 

I can try to look up the reason but the presentation of "bloat" typically starts with the torso of the amphibian and then spreads to the limbs and throat region of the frog. 

The withdrawl of the circulating lymph was a guess based on presence of hind lymph sacs in anurans.. these are required to help maintain the correct flow of the lymph. 

Ed


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## Manuran

Hi Gaua, drbp and Ed,

Little apprehensive about jumping in, as I know very little here. It is a very interesting thread though. I thought I would just throw something into the mix. If the fluid is accumilating right under the skin and above the muscle layer, it makes a lot of sense that you can extract fluid from the thighs. 
Instead of channels and ducts, could it be that it is just one big area. When dissecting a Dendrobates, you can just make two cuts on either side and remove the skin in 2 pieces. It will come off like a pair of trousers and a shirt. There seems to be very little connective tissue.

I'm not sure this helps, but to me it makes sense why this method works.


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## Ed

Manuran said:


> Hi Gaua, drbp and Ed,
> 
> Little apprehensive about jumping in, as I know very little here. It is a very interesting thread though. I thought I would just throw something into the mix. If the fluid is accumilating right under the skin and above the muscle layer, it makes a lot of sense that you can extract fluid from the thighs.
> Instead of channels and ducts, could it be that it is just one big area. When dissecting a Dendrobates, you can just make two cuts on either side and remove the skin in 2 pieces. It will come off like a pair of trousers and a shirt. There seems to be very little connective tissue.
> 
> I'm not sure this helps, but to me it makes sense why this method works.


It makes sense but when they have withdrawn fluid from dendrobates at work to make movement easier, the fluid was always withdrawn from inside the abdominal cavity and it was definitely deeper than just between the skin muscle layer. 

I have also seen them draw lymph from larger frogs from those ducts in the legs pretty readily.

Ed


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## Manuran

Hey Ed,

I agree. On the occasions that I have seen bloating, it was deeper in the body. I think if there ever is a next time, I'm going to make sure that is the case and not what Gaua has reported here. Shows how much more there is to learn, esp. on a symptom such as bloating.
Thanks again to you three. Very interesting thread.


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## Gaua

Thanks a lot both of you ... I'm learning a lot ...

As you say, Ed, I had in mind another idea of bloat, similar to aedema ... no free liquid, but inside cells. Or more like ascites, in the abdominal cavity ...

But in my dendro's case, the liquid was out of cells, collected in some areas, as Manuran said, just under the skin. That was why it was easy to extract, and it was very evident in the Xenopus, in which I punctured only the thighs ...


I also think I know why the throat was the first area to became bloated: it was the most soft part of the frog (the skin is loose to let them breathe), the part that would offer less resistance. Then, when the throat area was bloated, the liquid started pressing under the skin of the body and legs.


What do you think??


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## Otis

good job! i would just like to say, gaua that i was really impressed when i read that you got it out with the syringe. it took me a while to get used to treating frogs and diagnosing them and i don't know if you have had a lot of experience...either way, great job!


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## Gaua

Thanks, otis!

I had no previous experience with dendrobates, I did what my instinct told me ...

The frog is fine, it eats very well and it's recovering weight. I'm glad of it ...


Thanks all!!


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