# D. HISTRIONICUS



## sldunn (Jun 2, 2008)

not sure where to put this... anyway i was wondering if anyone has been know to sell histrionicuss'. i know sean stewart has some, but it would be nice to get my hands on a pair myself; some of the blue ones would be ideal.


----------



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

They are few and fair between without having the right connection. They where just never breed in an y numbers back when we all had the chance when we could get them for $40. Last time I saw some they where $400+ a frog. If you can find them expect to pay for them.
Brian


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

They were $40 when they were being imported legally from Ecuador but that was 10 years go or thereabouts. I only know of 2 people that had lines that originated from those (Robbster and AJ Calisi). Recently it seems quite a few adult animals (Histos & Sylvaticus) have shown up here in the states, we have to thank our European bretheren for breeding the very difficult egg feeders, raising them to adulthood and then exporting them to the US.
People get up in arms over Mysteriousis which breed regularly in captivity, is there a difference between them and Sylvaticus/Histrionicus?
Mark
ps I am looking for yellow Lehmanni


----------



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I guess it depends on how you look at it mark..but it will be a cold day in <censored> before I debate the man that got us Terribilis for the first time. :lol: 
Brian


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Not wanting to turn this thread into another dust up about smuggling, I personally wonder how many of those adult histronicus/sylvaticus were truly captive bred and also how many of them came in via legal channels as opposed to in someone's coat pocket.

I grant that our European bretheren have clearly been having success with these frogs but the surge in adults coming into this country has me wondering.

Bill


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Sorry my cynicism didn't leak though well enough, my comment was that the Mysteriousis are in likelyhood CB animals, though the original breeding stock obviously was not. The Histo/Sylvaticus imports would be in my estimation guilty until proven innocent, prove to me you are breeding these animals in any numbers and then raising until adulthood??? Yea I sell all my cb offsrping as adults, anybody would be a fool to believe these are CB animals.
To rephrase my earlier comment, most all condemned an earlier thread in regards to some Mysteriousis being available here in the US, yet people applauded a thread on someone's geat Sylvaticus tank/pair. What is the difference between these 2....None other than the Mysti's were probably CB bred and the Sylvaticus had CITES documents from Europe.....what is better, WC laundered frogs or cb high profile illegal frogs?
mark
ps amend my wanted to CB yellow Lehmanni


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Oh and Brian the Terribilis, yes CITES from Europe. You may not have known this but they actually occur in a small patch of rain forest just south of Berlin.
Do we condemn smuggled animals if they supply the hobby and take most of the pressure off of future collecting?? A good question but as Ed so often points out, one of the most smuggled frogs are Auratus, there must be some really neat morphs we have not seen yet! There is no difference between many of the frogs the hobby has today and Mysti's sitting in the que other than is a real legal farming effort taking place with this species. I would hate to see anything dilute that effort. People think Terribilis are legal because at one time they were exported for scientific purposes, someone smarter than me please comment if any of these made it to the private sector....I think we all know the answer. Heck who am I to throw stones, I certainly have lived on both sides of the fence.
mark


----------



## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Mark,

I think one problem is that many on this board don't realize that those interesting Histo and Sylvaticus adults coming into the US are very likely laundered WC animals, smuggled to Europe and then 'legally' exported to the United States. Perhaps if more people were aware they wouldn't ooh and ahh at certain threads. 

Mystis are another sore spot for people. If I understand where the USFW stands, they are not legal here in the US. Yet they do exist here in the States. Go figure.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in how the standards are being applied and as you probably know better than I, the history of some of these species in terms of legal importations versus diversions versus less than legal exportations is pretty murky.

Bill


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

So Mark,

That was you we all met in the seedy NYC hotel room? That was the funniest scene....tons of froggers waiting in a lobby in a hotel that looked like it rented by the hour. We go into the room and there are just stacks of frogs. I remember bring Sean Stewart and myself back some of those first mint terribilis which were some of most robust and prolific frogs I have ever kept.

Chris


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Yes that was me ..involved in the great Chytrid importation of '97.


----------



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> People get up in arms over Mysteriousis which breed regularly in captivity, is there a difference between them and Sylvaticus/Histrionicus?
> Mark


I think there is a huge difference in these frogs. As far as the hobby goes the fact that the mysterious are breeding so well in captivity really seperates them from the histos/sylvaticus. In time mystys will flow out into the hobby more and more from years of breeding WCs and F1s and F2s. when after years of toying with old legal imports and years of illegal smuggled histos they sill cant make a dent in the demand. I think that if Mystes were not the poster child for illegal frogs that they would be pretty colse to being established in the hobby. Its just people have to hide this frog WAY more then others so it holding it back. 

BUT i think that as far as wild populations go Mysterious is in serious danger and that also seperates them from the histos. Not that histos and sylvaticus are doing great either but mystes face some serious shit right now.


----------



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

> In time mystys will flow out into the hobby more and more from years of breeding WCs and F1s and F2s.


What makes every one think this? I have heard this time and time again but I cant see how this would work. If they did this then it be so easy for every one that has them illegally to say theirs are legal. The way the fish and game is set up in this country and the way the laws are written we would have to have a complete leadership change and laws would have too also. Zoo's cant even bring in Asian Elephants to strengthen the blood in this country for breeding I don't think a frog would be high on the list to legalese especially for private hands.
Brian


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> Yes that was me ..involved in the great Chytrid importation of '97.


What do you mean Mark? Do you think that original import had chytrid infected animals? (and if it did...who knew at the time what we would be facing...)


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

UmbraSprite said:


> markpulawski said:
> 
> 
> > Yes that was me ..involved in the great Chytrid importation of '97.
> ...


No one even new what Chytrid was then (at least in the hobby side here in the US), I lost my entire collection 2 months after doing the importation to Chytrid and had no idea what killed all of my frogs. I did a 2nd import and lost everything again and only shortly thereafter did the Chytrid talk start to make the rounds. I was told the guy that shipped me all of the frogs knew he was getting animals from infected collections but did not care and housed them all together befroe shipping them to the US. It was the first time I realized that CB frogs could be as deadly as wild caughts when it came to infection and desease....one of the many valuable learning experiences albeit an expensive and disasterous one.


----------



## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Wow...

Did anyone else have problems? I never had any issues with those frogs. Were some of the most robust animals I have ever kept.

Chris


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Mark - correct me if I am wrong, but there were a few others who had similar experiences with loosing their collections. 

I think I remember hearing rumblings about that.


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I think certain animals that were imported were tainted and for me the way I did things then cross contamination was inevitable, that's when i drilled the 30 tanks I had then. And yes Melissa a few others lost their collections or at least the animals from the import. The Cincy Zoo got some of the terribilis and theirs did great. I did save what ended up being a pair of Bassleri, and they bred prodigiously, could not get rid of them after a while. That male Bassleri was the loudest most contant caller I have ever had, people used to think I kept a bird collection when i was on my phone near them. I finally gave them to Pat Nabors after a while.


----------



## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Isn't it possible that other frogs from the shipment which ended up being healthy and survived, were asymptomatic carriers of chytrid? We do fecals on our frogs but not a lot of chytrid testing, I wonder how many of our captive frogs are carriers that just don't show any symptoms.


----------



## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

i would venture to guess that most large collections have chytrid laying around. Maybe you only notice a few animals a year that die for no reason when the temperatures start dropping....i think that chytrid is more prevalent in peoples collections than they realize.


----------



## shockingelk (May 14, 2008)

I just wanted to jump in here as a newbie and say the early part of the thread was fascinating and the later talk of chytrid terrifying. Should I test my frogs for chytrid as well as common maladies?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ben E said:


> i would venture to guess that most large collections have chytrid laying around. Maybe you only notice a few animals a year that die for no reason when the temperatures start dropping....i think that chytrid is more prevalent in peoples collections than they realize.



I'm with Ben here.. When they did some of the initial testing a number of years ago, they were able to find chytrid in at least one importer's stock. This is a good indication that many imported animals may have been infected. I don't remember if it was on here or on frognet (or both) but given that we tend to keep dendrobatids above the temperature (or give them access to temperatures above) where chytrid is lethal we are probably seeing a lot of asymptomatic carriers. 
Another potential method of infection is through plant cuttings, moss collection..... Its here in the USA, in the wild, we just don't know the extent... 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

One good thing is that if you can recognize symptons quickly enough the animals can be successfully treated with Miconozole anti fungal agent. It is thanks to that that there are yellow Terribilis here in the states. The original founding group that started the only yellow Terribilis line in the US was tainted with Chytrid and 2 of the original 8 animals were lost before the rest were succuessfully treated with Miconozole.


----------



## mlaursen (Feb 22, 2007)

I think I actually ended up with this pair of bassleri from patrick. While back, (male ended up an escapee unfortunately) definitely a loud frog.

michael


markpulawski said:


> I think certain animals that were imported were tainted and for me the way I did things then cross contamination was inevitable, that's when i drilled the 30 tanks I had then. And yes Melissa a few others lost their collections or at least the animals from the import. The Cincy Zoo got some of the terribilis and theirs did great. I did save what ended up being a pair of Bassleri, and they bred prodigiously, could not get rid of them after a while. That male Bassleri was the loudest most contant caller I have ever had, people used to think I kept a bird collection when i was on my phone near them. I finally gave them to Pat Nabors after a while.


----------



## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> I'm with Ben here..


As am I.


----------

