# FYI - Granuliferus, and other rare frogs ...



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I hesitate to even post this. It's a sore subject with me.

I live in Arizona - and there have been *multiple* offers recently of frogs of sketchy provenance. People are hiding behind other people to try and sell these frogs.

I'm aware of three parties that will likely try and sell these frogs to anyone possible.

With the sheer number of Granuliferus I'm seeing for sale in these emails - it's pretty obvious to me that they have been smuggled. I mean, it's *POSSIBLE *that someone has been breeding the hell out of them and sitting on the offspring - and just NOW decided it's time to sell.

But it is not *PROBABLE*.

I realize these are VERY desirable frogs (the list included Sylvaticus and Black Jeans, Blue Jeans and others) - but please realize if you BUY these frogs ...

*YOU ARE SUPPORTING SMUGGLERS!*

No, I am not naming the parties here, or even privately - so do not ask.

Just do the right thing and don't buy them.

s


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks for posting the heads up. I'm sure we all have a pretty good idea who the 2-3 people probably are. Why anyone would get frogs from them, let alone smuggled frogs, is beyond me.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

There's USUALLY a reason you hear about certain disreputable people.... It's bad enough buying legal frogs from these people... Buying rare frogs at reasonable prices from these people... Well, you get what you paid for.


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## Zach Valois (Jun 7, 2012)

Figures. There is a certain individual in your area that has been smuggling and decimating tarantula populations too. Unfortunate indeed. 

Thanks for posting.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Well I'm glad someone's speaking up. Bravo to you Scott.

It's really unfortunate when you hear about this stuff. I don't understand why people can't have some patience and just wait for legally harvested frogs.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Or just be happy with all the wonderful frogs the hobby already has...


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

Thanks Scott! Being a noob, I'd probably fall for the "This is a rare and beautiful frog for a good price" trick without knowing what I was actually getting myself into. Now I can at least start a list of frogs to avoid for a while.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Jay - if you ever have any doubts on anything (in regards to what or who you are buying from) - please feel free to PM me and ask.

Generally speaking - the Moderators have a very good feel for who to buy from, and who to avoid.

s


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Where are you seeing these frogs posted? I rarely see anything here or on Kingsnake that looks sketchy. These people must be part of private groups.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Where are you seeing these frogs posted? I rarely see anything here or on Kingsnake that looks sketchy. These people must be part of private groups.


No you actually have to be around for a while, gain some experience pay attention to what is going on, know your species and where they come from and the status of those animals in the hobby....and then when it happens it's pretty obvious. Adult CB egg feeders for sale, when it's 4 or 5 Pumilio from a morph heavily imported you can believe the ad, when it's 30 super rare morph adult frogs then yes it is as simple as that to figure out.


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

JaredJ said:


> I rarely see anything here or on Kingsnake that looks sketchy. These people must be part of private groups.


Exactly right. More often than not, these types of offerings are private. You don't often see questionable frogs being publicly posted, as the seller would be chastised by (at least _most_) of the community.

Scott said it perfectly: 

"*Please realize if you BUY these frogs ... YOU ARE SUPPORTING SMUGGLERS!
...
Just do the right thing and don't buy them.* "

It really is as simple as that. ^^ You won't be seeing these types of frogs offered on reputable dart frog breeders sites without lineage/import info. Those who do it right keep track of that info, as it's _extremely important_. As Scott said, there are many questionable species like this in the hobby. An example would be Oophaga sylvatica... If you see it offered at an expo, on a website, or in a store, simply ask for lineage information (assuming it's not clearly posted). If the seller shows the frogs are from UE import, it's not as much to worry about. On the other hand, if you ask and they say they won't explain, or "don't know" the lineage, steer clear. 

There are _many_ types of breeders out there. If anyone is curious about any breeder, search for vendor feedback threads both here on Dendroboard, and elsewhere online. Run a quick google search of the species you are looking in to, and if that doesn't help simply ask an experienced hobbyist, moderator, or reputable breeder. There's _never_ any shame in asking when you aren't sure, and whoever you ask will probably be happy to help. You'd be doing the hobby, yourself, and your frogs a favor.

Edit: Hell, if you are concerned about a specific species' legality and can't find any info... Start a thread & ask about it!


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Scott,
I am breeding Golifito grannies. Please PM me on who is selling them, I want to know so their is no confusion. I have pics from eggs to froglets. And linniage data on all of my frogs. So if this in any implication is aimed at me, this is dead wrong. If not I apologize. 
If anyone has questions on my grannies please feel free to cantact me directly. 

I have all legally obtained frogs and will keep it that way.

Thanks,
Daryl


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just a side note... while it is possible to get legal animals from an institution (such as a zoo), there are often restrictions on what can and cannot be done with the animals or thier offspring and typically animals or the offspring of animals originating from an institutions are required to not be used for commercial purposes. If someone is selling animals that are from an institution or are supposed to be immediately descended from institutional animals, then they need to have a release from the institution that permits the sale of those animals or their offspring. This is in no small part due to IACUC (Institutional Animal Care & Use Committee) regulations and suggestions which restrict the options of releasing animals for to the pet trade. If the vendor cannot supply a copy of the release form, then those animals may also be illegal and subject to action by the originating institution (since many view it as theft or breach of contract) and/or local or federal law enforcement. Each institutional has it's own internal requirements (for example, some allow the adoption of animals at the end of the experiments) so each institutions policies on it should be scrutinized but in all cases, a release from the institutions IACUC committee is needed before turning animals over to non-staff. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Exactly right. More often than not, these types of offerings are private. You don't often see questionable frogs being publicly posted, as the seller would be chastised by (at least _most_) of the community.
> 
> Scott said it perfectly:
> 
> ...


I would think shady deals like that would scare people off. What if you sent them money and they ripped you off.LOL What are you going to do, run to the police and say the guy you were trying to buy illegal frogs from took your money?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

JaredJ said:


> I would think shady deals like that would scare people off. What if you sent them money and they ripped you off.LOL What are you going to do, run to the police and say the guy you were trying to buy illegal frogs from took your money?


This has happened relatively recently...actually by one of the guys that is selling the rare obligates (though not directly...he's aware that most people with a brain won't buy from him). And no, there really is no recourse if you get ripped off other than ostracization. But theres an easy way to avoid that...know who you are buying from.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

JaredJ said:


> Where are you seeing these frogs posted? I rarely see anything here or on Kingsnake that looks sketchy. These people must be part of private groups.


You're not seeing them here because the mods review all for sale threads before they are posted and wouldn't allow frogs of questionable nature to be posted for sale. I'm sure all the smugglers have long since gotten the message that such dealings wont pass the smell test here and have pretty much given up trying to post them here. I don't know about other boards, but I have heard rumor an innuendo about a couple other boards openly allowing members to post obviously smuggled frogs for sale, partially why I don't frequent those boards.

As for kingsnake, I've seen a few ads, not a ton, but they're taken down quickly.

My assumption is that the people who don't care know who these smugglers are and seek them out, information is passed by word of mouth so that nothing can be traced. I'd love for our community to find a way to out these people(pimps and prostitutes) and they people who buy from them(Johns).


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Are they really illegal or in violation of a civil contract? 




Ed said:


> Just a side note... while it is possible to get legal animals from an institution (such as a zoo), there are often restrictions on what can and cannot be done with the animals or thier offspring and typically animals or the offspring of animals originating from an institutions are required to not be used for commercial purposes. If someone is selling animals that are from an institution or are supposed to be immediately descended from institutional animals, then they need to have a release from the institution that permits the sale of those animals or their offspring. This is in no small part due to IACUC (Institutional Animal Care & Use Committee) regulations and suggestions which restrict the options of releasing animals for to the pet trade. If the vendor cannot supply a copy of the release form, then those animals may also be illegal and subject to action by the originating institution (since many view it as theft or breach of contract) and/or local or federal law enforcement. Each institutional has it's own internal requirements (for example, some allow the adoption of animals at the end of the experiments) so each institutions policies on it should be scrutinized but in all cases, a release from the institutions IACUC committee is needed before turning animals over to non-staff.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Under the Lacy Act, any wildlife aquired in a manner that breaks a law (theft) and used in interstate commerce can be charged under the Lacey Act.. 


> *(1)* to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;


So it is more than just violation of a contract, since it may be construed as theft or denial of royalties, or violation of import or research permits.... Animals that were collected for scientific research (institutional use) are typically brought in on scientific research permits which prohibit the use of the animals for commercial purposes. For example, the importation of castinoticus was done on research permits that prohibited thier release into the pet trade (in fact, the permit prohibited transfer to any other location than the importing institution) and when it became known that they were outside of the original location, USF&W actually went to the hobbyist's home and collected the frogs... (although they had been distributed by that point, originating the hobby population). If you ask USF&W on whether or not the castinoticus in the hobby are legal, they will tell that they are in fact not legal. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should also add, that one of the reasons I made the comments was that there are rumors that some heavily restricted species (like Atelopus zeteki and Nectophrynoides asperginis) had been taken from one or more institutions.... needless to say, that this very bad juju....not only for those who did it, but for the hobby as a whole.... 

Ed


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> I should also add, that one of the reasons I made the comments was that there are rumors that some heavily restricted species (like Atelopus zeteki and Nectophrynoides asperginis) had been taken from one or more institutions.... needless to say, that this very bad juju....not only for those who did it, but for the hobby as a whole....
> 
> Ed


While your statements reflect the law, is it your opinion that it makes sense to destroy eggs/froglets for animals that are so rare? I'd imagine people from the institutions released these animals, for the love of the animals, as they would go to a loving home as oppose to killing them. To me, this issue is entirley seperate from the often reckless, illegal harvest of often endangered animals and the smuggling process that started this thread.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> While your statements reflect the law, is it your opinion that it makes sense to destroy eggs/froglets for animals that are so rare? I'd imagine people from the institutions released these animals, for the love of the animals, as they would go to a loving home as oppose to killing them. To me, this issue is entirley seperate from the often reckless, illegal harvest of often endangered animals and the smuggling process that started this thread.


So lets reword your position here... 

According to your statment it is perfectly acceptable to get a rare animal into the hobby through illegal methods provided that any surplus animals are being destroyed? It is okay to steal the animals from the owners so you could have them in your home.... 

Nice spin on greed there.... Please lets not hide behind justifications.. the greed driving it is the same as the greed that drives those who purchase smuggled frogs..... Gotta have what you can't get otherwise...... 

Your making some major assumptions there like the genetic stock of the animals taken is in fact ones that were unimportant.... In addition, your ignoring things like the ESA (where both are listed)... 

Some comments 


Ed


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## jruffing46 (Jul 10, 2008)

Im with Craig on this one. I understand that these frogs are illegal and should not be purchased because it would be supporting smugglers but what about the frogs? Shouldnt someone be responsible and acquire these rare specimens so that they can live and be healthy?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jruffing46 said:


> Im with Craig on this one. I understand that these frogs are illegal and should not be purchased because it would be supporting smugglers but what about the frogs? Shouldnt someone be responsible and acquire these rare specimens so that they can live and be healthy?


How can aquiring frogs that are illegal (regardless of the reason for illegality) be responsible and to let them live healthy.... 

The A. zeteki import agreement and permits prohibited thier release to the pet trade and prohibited ownership outside of an AZA institution. This was done to reduce smuggling attempts since all possession of the toads is grounds for arrest since they aren't exported out of Panama and can't in the possession of a non-AZA institution.... 

As a further issue, the reason the eggs etc are destroyed is to manage the captive population for the long haul with an eye towards repatriation..

The Spray toads, are the property of the Tanzanian goverment and are being released there at the site so any theft of them from captivity is potentially damaging to the program since those toads are limited and are not being euthanized to manage population size. 

I fail to see how this isn't the same sort of greed of the "gotta have them all" mentality since all that is happening is it is getting rationalized. 

How come people aren't smuggling or stealing the little brown animals like the Wyoming toads? Oddly enough is it because they look like a regular toad? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> So lets reword your position here...
> 
> According to your statment it is perfectly acceptable to get a rare animal into the hobby through illegal methods provided that any surplus animals are being destroyed? It is okay to steal the animals from the owners so you could have them in your home....


No, my question to you, is would you rather see research animals and their offspring destroyed or given to some dedicated hobbyists? No stealing involved, given to hobbyists...



Ed said:


> Nice spin on greed there.... Please lets not hide behind justifications.. the greed driving it is the same as the greed that drives those who purchase smuggled frogs..... Gotta have what you can't get otherwise......


I beg to differ. I would never support a bunch of animals that were stolen from their natural environment in a completely reckless manner. Its for that reason that I have denounced the granulifera/sylvat EU imports many times. Its also for that reason that I struggle to support the Panamanian imports, although legal, certainly questionable. Furthermore, any animals leaked from research grants, zoos, etc, were likely collected in a more responsible manner. That is why I view it differntly and I think its a very important distinction to make.

I know its been said before, but at the end of the day, there are many frogs in the hobby that were released from research grants/zoos etc.. 



Ed said:


> Your making some major assumptions there like the genetic stock of the animals taken is in fact ones that were unimportant.... In addition, your ignoring things like the ESA (where both are listed)...
> 
> Some comments
> Ed


Yes, I am assuming that zoos/research grants don't harvest 20-30 breeding pairs of a species in one shot. Is that not a safe assumption when referring to these frogs? My very limited knowledge has been that they collect a pair or two or three...


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## jruffing46 (Jul 10, 2008)

So these frogs should perish because of the actions of some greedy individual? If these frogs are rare isnt it valuable to the conservation of the species to keep them alive? There isnt any proper authorities that can acquire these and return them to full health and depending on where they are confinscated, returned back to the wild?

Not to sound like a tree hugger but in the best interest of the animal, isnt it better for them to live?

And please remember, Im not a scientist. Just a hobbysit asking a question.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> How can aquiring frogs that are illegal (regardless of the reason for illegality) be responsible and to let them live healthy....
> 
> The A. zeteki import agreement and permits prohibited thier release to the pet trade and prohibited ownership outside of an AZA institution. This was done to reduce smuggling attempts since all possession of the toads is grounds for arrest since they aren't exported out of Panama and can't in the possession of a non-AZA institution....
> 
> ...


I agree with the your point behind the Zeteki, but it seems there is room for improvement to this, perhaps something enabling the 'citizen scientists' among us...Many of these hobbyists do have good intentions and their efforts are far from malicious, however a portion of the crowd are the guys who 'just gotta...gotta have 'em'


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

I have to agree that it seems preferable for animals to be released into the hobby via zoos and research institutions versus being destroyed. Legal or not (because, quite frankly, just because something is legal does not make it right and just because something is illegal does not make it wrong), animals being released into the hobby through that avenue has a few distinct advantages over the alternatives.

First, an individual who is desperate to acquire a rare or illegal species is almost certainly going to figure out a way to do so. If the only two options are illegal smuggling or through a zoo or research institution, which way is better? The obvious answer seems to be the latter. People who are determined to get something are going to get it one way or another and I'd prefer to discourage poachers at every opportunity.

Which brings me to my second thought. The reason that animals are stolen from the wild and smuggled elsewhere to be sold is because they are valuable. They are valuable because they are rare. The less rare that they become the less valuable they become. The less valuable they are the less likely they are to be stolen and smuggled in. The less they are stolen and smuggled the better, for the frogs themselves, the hobby, and the environment as a whole. I mean (and I could be under-informed about this so feel free to correct me) is there a thriving smuggling industry for azureus or other 'common' PDF's? Are local populations being decimated by poachers? It seems to me that commonality is the easiest and most effective way to discourage illegally WC animals. If that commonality comes because zoos and other institutions are releasing animals rather than destroying them, I guess I'm alright with that.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It does not matter whether you agree with each other or not.

In fact - it is breaking the law. Do it at your own risk.

I'd prefer that the "Warning" message stay intact here - I'm not interested in people "enabling" themselves (by reason or otherwise) as to the legality of frogs that are, in fact, not legal to be owned by the hobby.

Thread Closed.

s


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