# Seeking input on terribilis deaths, necropsy results



## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

A friend (really, not me; though I have frogsat these frogs) has recently lost 3 adult mint terribilis, one by one, which had seemed to be doing fine for some time. We had the second one to die necropsied, which wasn't too definitive, but did point out some areas of concern. I'd like to post the necropsy results and get anyone's input.

(Note: the vet who prepared the body before it was sent off to the lab recorded "Frog looks to be in good condition" in his notes.)

Necropsy report:

"*Final Anatomic Diagnosis:*

1. Interstitial nephritis, heterophilic, subacute, multifocal, nodular, mild, kidneys.

2. Rhinitis, heterophilic, subacute, diffuse, mild, nasal cavity.

3. Encysted metazoan parasites, chronic, multifocal, mild, with granuloma formation, small intestine.

*Comment:* The cause of sudden death is not evident in these sections there is no evidence of septicemia or changes in the skin that would be consistent with Chytridiomycosis. The rhinitis and interstitial nephritis are mild and may represent mild chronic inflammation due to environmental factors."


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I can't make head or tail of the vet speak, but I know many people lose their phyllobates species in the months following a hot summer...

...And it was a hot summer in most places in the US.

Did you're freind have trouble keeping the tank(s) cool?


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Sounds like he had a mild kidney problem, a "cold" or allergies, a mild case of "worms" or parasites, none of which were severe enough alone to cause death. Looks like he had some environmental stressors just like a human would that could keep your immune suppressed, like bad allergies will do. I know my daughter has horrible allergies and asthma and she gets sick so much worse than the rest of us do because her body constantly fighting her allergens leaves her immune system low. So, could there have been some lingering smells from the tank set up, anything being used around the tanks like air freshener or cleaning supplies or someone smoking in the house, or the temps too hot?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thank you both.

Brian, I think it's possible that the heat wave played a role, but the first frog (an adult male) died in May. While we were babysitting these frogs (the remaining 2 terribilis) for a couple of months this summer, my son & I--the froggers in the family--left for a week of vacation (a sort of necessary visit to aging grandparents) and wouldn't you know it, that was the hottest week of the summer, the one that broke records. We were in phone touch with my daughter, who was caring for the animals, and I think she did as well as anyone could have. The 2 tanks of Phyllobates (one of auretania) were moved to the coolest part of the house, nearest the window AC (but not right in line with the output, of course), the hoods of basically all the vivs and aquaria in the house were left off for more or less the whole heat wave, maybe 5 days or so, with the exception of maybe a few hours in the evening when feeding, etc., was done...Thermometers were placed in the tanks and the Phyllobates tanks were kept at 82º or below--not great, I know, but not as bad as it could have been. Of course, the frogs' photoperiods and feeding schedules were disrupted.

Kristi--Well, I think you've about summed it up. I think it must have been a summation of a bunch of "minor" issues that, maybe in conjunction with the heat wave, the tank moves, etc., finally tipped the balance. But I was wondering what might have caused some of those "minor" stresses...esp. the rhinitis and nephritis. 

The parasites are an obvious problem (my vet called them "cocci-like"), and in retrospect I guess we wish fecals had been run, though all the frogs were obtained as cb juveniles from reputable breeders, and they were the first occupants of the viv (which, btw, was a well-planted, lushly growing 20 long, with nice sturdy pieces of ghost wood, etc., that the terribilis even sometimes hopped about on, even though they have to be the most terrestrial of any pdf I've ever observed!). 

At the time the first frog developed trouble, the viv had been set up and occupied for approximately a year.

I can't think of any airborne (or otherwise) chemicals/irritants that would have occurred. As a long time animal keeper, I long ago pretty much gave up on aerosols, teflon (dangerous to birds when overheated), powerful cleansers, etc. If I do use anything like that, I make sure it's in a well-ventilated place far from any inside habitats...

BTW, both terribilis looked fine when we returned from vacation, but within maybe a week the little male began acting "depressed." We removed him to a quarantine enclosure, treated him with metronidazole, and about the time we were going to take him to the vet--he died. So we had him necropsied instead.  

The last remaining frog--a very large, robust female, suddenly declined & died in a similar fashion a few weeks later, maybe a couple weeks after my friend picked up her tanks from me...


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Sounds very much like Phyllobates Heat Death Syndrome to me, while some people have reported no deaths with temperatures up to the mid 80s for terribilis, a lot have found that bad things happen as soon as the thermometer crests 80 (myself included). Sometimes they die right away, or within a few weeks, though some people believe that their terribilis have died as much as six months later from heat stress.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks, Clayton. That would fit in well with the fact that the leucs, lamasi, pumilio, intermedius, and even the auretania (perhaps slightly less heat-sensitive?) survived the heat wave. (So far!)

The leucs, lamasi, & intermedius were even all reproducing/growing tads, at one stage or another, throughout...

(It was frog city here for a while. Now all but my intermedius have returned to their college homes...sigh...)


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Bicolor and terribilis seem to be most affected by Phyllobates Heat Death Syndrome (PHDS), aurotaenia are also affected, though it seems they aren't as sensitive as bicolor and terribilis. Lugubris and vittatus don't seem to be any more heat sensitive than any other dart frog, from anecdotal reporting. (Lugubris can even be found right by the beaches in places like Bastimentos island, not a very chilly place).


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Thanks again, that's very helpful. And interesting.


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## MikeL (Jun 13, 2006)

Can anyone tell me more about this phylobate heat stress syndrome. 

I have recently picked up three mint terribilis froglets (young froglets). Two were fairly skinny when I bought them and the third was pretty plump and a little bit larger. Right off the bat one of them seemed to be spending a lot of time in the water and not really eating as agressivly as the other two. He seemed sort of lethargic, and would spend all his time partially submerged in the water. This weekend I was away for almost two days and when I got home it was right there in the same place but the color of it had changed dramatically and it was even more lethargic. I decided that I would isolate it in the morning but in the morning it was dead. 

Yesterday, the other somewhat skinny frog began sitting in the water also. I encouraged it to move out and to eat and it did eat a bit but then returned to the water. I immediately isolated it have it in a small sterilite with paper towel, piece of pothos and a small water dish with a rock. For the past 24 hours it has remained partially submerged and I have not witnessed it eating. the color is also a bit off. I again encouraged it out of the water but it returned right away. 

I know that last week the enclosure temp got up to 83 or 84. Does this sound like heat stress? If so is there anything that can be done to reverse it. The plump froglet is still doing fine. Could this be something else entirely that is just related to young possibly sick froglets. 

This frog is slipping away like the other one did......Any advice would be appreciated..


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Sorry to hear that, Mike! If you get no answers at the end of this thread, you might try reposting your query as a new thread. I think some forum surfers are more likely to pick up on new topics than read through an old one...Good luck!


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

MikeL said:


> Can anyone tell me more about this phylobate heat stress syndrome.


I can't tell you anything about that, but I can tell you that a lot of people say that these animals seek water to cope with parasites. Here is the usual checklist of questions you can answer for us:

1. Have you done a fecal on these animals?

2. What are you feeding them and how often?

3. What kind of supplements are you using?

4. How old are the supplements?

5. Have you noticed any stress type behaviors (wrestling, climbing glass, etc)?

Marcos


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## MikeL (Jun 13, 2006)

Marcos, 

I have not done a fecal. What is the best/easiest way to get these done. I know that Dr. Frye used to do them but I'm not sure if he still does. Also, the times he has gone since I isolated him has been in the water so I havent been able to get a sample I guess I could try removing the water dish. 

I'm feeding meglomaster dusted with herptivite and rep cal. Both suplements are new (three months), but I will veryify the dates to make sure that they are not expired. I feed every day. 

Aside from the sitting in water and not eating I have not noticed any stress type behaivior. 

At this point its starting to look like theres no saving him (after watching the other one die, the behavior is exactly the same). I'll get a sample and do the fecal so that I can be sure and save the frog that seems to be in good health. I'm assuming that if it is a parasite that all three of them would have it.

Thanks..........


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

This raises a question for me. Where do most of you keep your phyllobates tanks? I was going to put my mints on the second shelf but now that I have read this it would seem better to keep them on the first (bottom) shelf. This would avoid the lights underneath heating the tank up a little.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Mike,

I sent my fecals to Dr. Frye, you may also be able to find a vet in your area by contacting the reptile keeper at your local zoo. Dr. Frye has a website at:

http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/page3.htm

I have an underweight tinc with two tank mates. She got way too thin and then a second one followed suit. I separated out the frogs and had all three samples tested separately. The results seemed to validate their health, the largest had the smallest parasite load, the middle one a moderate parasite load, and the smallest the largest parasite load as well as two different parasites. They are all in the same environment and have been so for a little under two years. I guess what I am saying here is that different frogs in the same environment can vary in parasite load and outward health. So, who knows maybe peer bullying, genetic fitness, high temperatures, etc., can make one of your frogs succumb while the other might be infected but asymptomatic. They are back together and in their 3rd week of treatment. The middle frog is back to normal weight with the smallest gaining weight, albeit more slowly. Anecdotally, the smallest also spends the most time in the water feature soaking.

How you decide to deal with parasites and fecal sampling is a personal decision and there are a wide range of views. However, I think in cases where the animal's health is in question it is a small price to pay. Much cheaper that doing a necropsy after the fact.

Marcos


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