# Farm raised pumilio



## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

I'm considering getting some farm raised pumilio, but I'm really suspicious of it. I'm willing to take some precautionary measure (Dr. Frye) if I could get any advice for what I should be most concerned with. I've heard horror stories of WC ones. 

Any suggestions?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm hearing horror stories about most everyone involved in this deal.

I'm staying far, far away from it.

s


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

Unless you can afford a complete loss, without a blink, I agree. Although, calculated risk can lead to reward, but the numbers are still very high in that equation.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

All I will say in public is that the prices are out of line, and I will not be buying any. 



kenya_1977 said:


> I'm considering getting some farm raised pumilio, but I'm really suspicious of it. I'm willing to take some precautionary measure (Dr. Frye) if I could get any advice for what I should be most concerned with. I've heard horror stories of WC ones.
> 
> Any suggestions?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

For species unavailable (pretty much) in the hobby... the prices are not the issue.

You should see the prices for the really rare frogs.

The issue here is who you're dealing with and the health of the frogs.

Neither of which impresses me (the dealer for sure, the health who knows...).

If I *am* going to spend that much (on a frog), it will be for a much "surer" thing (healthwise) than this.

s


kyle1745 said:


> All I will say in public is that the prices are out of line, and I will not be buying any.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

In the past I have heard that they were priced from $25-50 each with expected 50% or higher die off. What makes these worth so much more?



Scott said:


> For species unavailable (pretty much) in the hobby... the prices are not the issue.
> 
> You should see the prices for the really rare frogs.
> 
> ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

2 things.

1 - the morphs are not "common" in the hobby.

2 - when they were $25/50 (in the *distant* past), they were brought in in much greater numbers (and much poorer quality).

Do not mistake me on this... I think very few people should consider this. Mainly those that have medicine(s) at their disposal, and those that have also have someone who can run immediate fecals.

"Farm Raised" or not... they're coming in from the wild and will more than likely be loaded with parasites.

Hopefully the frogs will be packed with much more consideration than those frogs you were talking about ($25/50) were.

s


kyle1745 said:


> In the past I have heard that they were priced from $25-50 each with expected 50% or higher die off. What makes these worth so much more?


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm not sure if the 50% die off stat is reliable for application today. My humble theory is that many frogs died because people couldn't grow food, make sufficient enclosures, get fecals, or go on dendroboard to ask questions  For example: if you read Jewels of the RF, it says that vents are difficult to raise due to the fact that small enough food is not easily accessible. This hobby has become extremely advanced in the last couple years. Many of us have revived some really sick frogs. On that note, I'm not about to spend a grand on a few really sick frogs!


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

Well I have little experience with many wild caughts however I own a pair of Bronze auratus(WC) from the first shipment from Panama 2 years ago. They are doing great have bred for me and overall been the healthiest frogs i've had. I can imagine that they may need attention from their long journey. So I would be interested in possibly wasting some intestment on these. Who is doing the import. I haven't seen an offering yet.


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*pumilio crash?*

You guys pretty much confirmed what I already figured. Although at cheaper prices it might be worth the risk, I expect a certain amount of loss, and at almost CB prices it's not worth it. I've also been the benefactor of a great pair of farm raised auratus, but the auratus are a very resilient set of frog (which I've encountered people who have lost them). I would love to get into pumilio/thumbnails hardcore, I was suspecting that this was a risky way given that the prices are 3-4X higher than past.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

*medical advice*

Kenya, due to the advice of some board members I no longer give out free medical advice on Dendroboard. I am sorry for the inconvenience, but you can always contact me at my hospital.


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Found this on Frognet... Tracey, if you view here I hope you dont mind that I moved it over here to share with all.

" I've been doing a little research on these D. pumilio that are coming in
to the US soon. They appear to be the group of "farm raised" frogs from
Central America (not Schulte's) that have been shopped around for
sometime now to raise the market price.

The story I got from Florida is that they are being shipped from Central
America to Indonesia and then back to Florida. They will be around the
world travelers with one heck of a case of jet lag and a terrible
survival rate.

While I'd love to get some D. pumilio, these will not be worth the risk
or the inflated price. Just think about all the small frogs that came in
from Europe a couple of years ago and basically none survived.

I hope some more responsible importation comes along."

Tracy
http://www.TracyHicks.com

Im staying away from these for this reason and some others.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Tim - a follow up (on FrogNet) to that note suggests that only the (initial) money for the purchase came from Indonesia. The frogs do not seem to be making the round trip.

But - par for the course here. Murky information all the way around.

s


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Yes. Thanks. I saw that after I posted and that makes me feel a little better about the frogs survival rate. Still dont like the prices and have other issues as well.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

about the prices, rare frogs get high prices.
about prices again, i saw on frognet a bit back. i think blue jean pumilio for 250.00 cb. this guy is selling 125.00 for the "blue legged" frogs. which i admit is high but just having my say.
think of this. the mysteriosis how much will they go for. it is only a matter of time that they will be on the market. and they come from euro land. i heard that histos could of fetched around 300. to the seasoned frog breeder the prices are not too high. like someone posted it woud be an expensive experiment and i am sure that he will sell a few. 
walt


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

This is the first I've heard of the farm raised pumilio. Where can I find out more?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I think there is a bit of a difference in price when you are looking at Wild Caught. Take a look back to 2 years ago when the big shipments of auratus were coming in from Panama. How often do you see sold black auratus for sale? Not very often. When this shipment came I remember only paying $40 an adult frog and I hand picked a pair. I was newer to dart frogs then and later lost these frogs but the price was a little less than adult auratus go for. The thing to keep in mind is this guy is out for the buck and so are the folks collecting these "farmed raised" pumilios. He has already been caught stealing the pictures that were in his ad from Thomas at pumilio.com. I will admit that I am interested in obtaining a few of these WC but I will be having them treated ASAP. This is a calculated risk and I am not sure if I am willing to take such a risk and a chance to loss a lot of money. I do not think this is a wise venture to those who are new to the hobby. WC stress very quickly and these will have parasites. There are still very many unknowns about these frogs yet. (Quality of transportation, amount shipped to gather, amount of time without food, etc.) 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*pumilio prices*

I know these guys are not easy to come by, but if you are patient it happens. I'd be more than willing to pay $250 on a blue jean that was gauranteed CB, vs this $125 for a farm raised individual that could be stressed out beyond any preventative treatment by the time I get them. I love these frogs, and have been biding my time to get more.. I think I'll do it the safer route and wait on the lists (and pick up stuff at the IAD shows). I personally don't have over $2000 to drop on frogs that may or may not make it, which you reduce those possible losses almost completely when you buy from a reputable breeder. 

I've seen a lot of stuff that Seaside has put up for sale, and they deal with volume imported animals. I know people that have gotten lots of their auratus with no survivors. They are about moving the animals, not releasing healthy ones. 

Again, thanks everyone for confirming what I already knew. Hopefully these animals do come in healthy, but I don't have the money to gamble on it.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

Having been to IAD this year, there were little more than a handful of pumilios availible, I would be really surprised if there were 6 in total for sale. For some of us in this hobby this is the only chance to purchase these frogs. I know the risks involved in purchasing farm raised animals, but waiting on year long lists, and almost begging for any frogs produced is not for me ( I have called or emailed almost every person who has pumilios ). I have already consulted Dr. Frye as he was a great help in getting my Patricia back to health and will have a full medical supply. I know I will most likely loose frogs and accept this.

Robert Marchisi


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2004)

pa.walt said:


> about the prices, rare frogs get high prices.
> about prices again, i saw on frognet a bit back. i think blue jean pumilio for 250.00 cb. this guy is selling 125.00 for the "blue legged" frogs. which i admit is high but just having my say.
> think of this. the mysteriosis how much will they go for. it is only a matter of time that they will be on the market. and they come from euro land. i heard that histos could of fetched around 300. to the seasoned frog breeder the prices are not too high. like someone posted it woud be an expensive experiment and i am sure that he will sell a few.
> walt


I'll believe the mysteriosis thing when it happens..personally I don't see it happening any time soon. Also the last batch of histos was sealing for around $450 and this was not more then a year or so ago 
Brian Ferriera Jr
Plympton, Ma


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Where you guys finding the prices on these? Where are they for sale? I am just interested, doubt i would buy them, but still exciting.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Found it, i am more interested in auratus, considering i am not well wealthy. lol
Thanks
Ryan


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Not much info on the morphs though...


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Brian, remember the histros I "purchased"? haha, good times. :wink:


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

I was just thinging about this, I don't know whether it is based in fact, but I though it would be worth mentioning. These darts are going to be eating a usual wild diet before they are sent, so they are going to be producing at least some level of toxins. If you are getting anything from the shipments, be careful. They may be packing a wallop!


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

*Pumilio Shipment*

Well, it has been a long and interesting day. I am going to leave a brief posting here tonight, with a more extensive follow up tomorrow.

Glen from Seaside Reptiles and I are coming to an agreement. I will be flying down to Florida shortly after this pumilio shipment arrives. I will do exams on all of the pumilio (looking for any wounds, fractures, infections etc,) perform as many fecals as possible, give Glen advice on handling, packaging, feeding, storage, medication, etc. I have never met Glen before, but we have talked extensively on the phone today, and I am very excited to see the shipment fresh off the plane. Glen sincerely wants this shipment of frogs to be as healthy as humanly possible. It is in everyone’s best interest.

Thought I'd let everyone know.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Impressive


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## TimStout (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks Doc. Frye! 
Sounds like Glenn has realized that his reputation is in need of a turn around. He does get in some nice frogs and his prices can be fair although these pums seem a little rich for my blood. I am planning on calling about auratus morphs and to see if he is planning on treating those for parasites etc. as well.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: Pumilio Shipment*

Dr. Frye,

What an awesome opportunity! You should be able to pick out some really nice pumilio in exchange for your services. Like you and your brother have said, aren't trades awesome! 

You'll have to keep us up to day regarding the shipment. We spoke (emailed) with Glen last night because he was using some of our photos for advertising his frogs. He has agreed to remove all photos from his site and will be reposting when the animals arrive. 


Melis




Dr. Frye said:


> Well, it has been a long and interesting day. I am going to leave a brief posting here tonight, with a more extensive follow up tomorrow.
> 
> Glen from Seaside Reptiles and I are coming to an agreement. I will be flying down to Florida shortly after this pumilio shipment arrives. I will do exams on all of the pumilio (looking for any wounds, fractures, infections etc,) perform as many fecals as possible, give Glen advice on handling, packaging, feeding, storage, medication, etc. I have never met Glen before, but we have talked extensively on the phone today, and I am very excited to see the shipment fresh off the plane. Glen sincerely wants this shipment of frogs to be as healthy as humanly possible. It is in everyone’s best interest.
> 
> Thought I'd let everyone know.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

my opinion on all this is to let the big time breeder buy these guys out and produce some offspring. I am more than happy to buy from them afterwards. If not, we might have the same experience we had a few years ago when the shipment of pumilios came in, and they were going for $25 a piece. A lot of inexperience people bought them and most of them died off.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

maybe these pumilios will go the way of the panamainian auratus. there was one person who had them then there poped up another 2-3 people who sold them. i rememebr petes incredable pets had the auratus but he would keep them till he knew they were "shippable." he also wrote that he would of sent some meds with the frogs to treat for "bugs". that's what he wrote me when i asked him about them.
walt


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*other importers?*

I was actually thinking of that myself. It's very possible, and since Glen is the first to get them out, he's going to see how much he can get out of them. Since he's selling them before they are even in, he's after how much he can get out of them, rather than how the frogs actually look.

Still worth waiting it out for me.


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## kenya_1977 (Apr 8, 2004)

*Dr. Frye's exam*

Sorry Dr. Frye, I didn't see your post. I look forward to hearing about the exam.


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

Food for thought: Even though Dr Frye is going down to Glenn's and testing these frogs, I don't think he is vouching for their health in any form. Everyone purchasing needs to recognize the substantial risk that they are taking! Glenn is promising live delivery and you can't expect any more! If not your fooling yourself.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*Very True...*

Good point. As someone mentioned earlier, you shouldn't buy them unless you are ready to loose a substantail about of money. If you don't have the money to spare, then don't get them!

Melis




hicksonj said:


> Food for thought: Even though Dr Frye is going down to Glen's and testing these frogs, I don't think he is vouching for their health in any form. Everyone purchasing needs to recognize the substantial risk that they are taking! Glen is promising live delivery and you can't expect any more! If not your fooling yourself.


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## Patrick Nabors (Feb 22, 2004)

*Pumilio shipment*

I have a lot of mixed feelings on this subject, and have been watching this process for a couple of years. Recently, back in February, I was approached by an american in Indonesia, who offered me this shipment. After long discussions with him, I decided to turn it down, since he wanted all the money up front, and was not guaranteeing live arrival. In addition I was suspicious, since he had photos taken from other peoples sites, and not his own, and he didnt seem very familiar with the frogs in general. 
Another thing that entered into my decision, and a factor that I think should enter into all of your decisions, is the fact that the source of these frogs, in Panama, is the same person who flooded the US with all the auratus a couple of years ago. Remember how much they were asking when the auratus first started coming in? Remember how much they were after a few months of several hundred auratus showing up each month? I wonder how this will play out with the pumilio. I have a pretty good idea of what they are coming out for, and there is a lot of room for the price to drop, even if the exporter in Panama doesnt drop his prices. 
I am not 100 % convinced this will even happen, although it certainly seems likely at this point, but if it does, there will most likely be a lot of frogs to follow. 
You can bet I will be following this with a great deal of interest, and I hope it goes well, it would be nice to see these forms come into the hobby. 

Sincerely, Patrick


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

hi 
i got this from frognet, this is the pumilio broker from what the poster wrote.: 
http://www.worldwidefauna.com/
This is the broker of the pumilios...........................
Kind Regards;
Scott Solar........
thier website looks nice. but some of the pics looked familer...
walt


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## Guest (Apr 29, 2004)

*Glen's Pumilio from here???*

So does this mean Glen Novotny's upcoming stock of pumilio are from worldwidefauna.com??? Does anyone know for sure the source where Glen is getting these pumilio from?





pa.walt said:


> hi
> i got this from frognet, this is the pumilio broker from what the poster wrote.:
> http://www.worldwidefauna.com/
> This is the broker of the pumilios...........................
> ...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Re: Glen's Pumilio from here???*

Since Glenn has signed up and is a member of this here board now... I'm sure he'll be along momentarily to answer.

s



davejoyce said:


> So does this mean Glen Novotny's upcoming stock of pumilio are from worldwidefauna.com??? Does anyone know for sure the source where Glen is getting these pumilio from?


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Here is a little food for thought to go along with what Patrick has said. Glenn is not the only person trying to bring pumilios in the country. In fact I know of two other companies, one is Incredible Pets out of Florida and I can not think of the other of the top of my head. I need to chech through some old emails. I am on these companies mailing list info on the pumilios. Also, a shipment from Nicaragua is trying to be brought in the country in the next few weeks with pumilios. So their will be room for prices to change. I have talked with a few people on frognet who said they are opting out due to the price of these guys. 

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2004)

I think there is a ton of folks getting into this hobby. As such the pumilio are some of the pretties in the US hobby. I'm real new to this hobby and 
my opion is not as valid as patricks or most the folks on here who have posted, but I think if you need to ask questions about them as how to deal with wc pumilio's you should be ready to loose your money. I also think it's bad to offer a product that you don't have yet. There is much talk to even if this whole deal is BS or not. On a postive note I would like to say I hope every one who gets these pretty things have good luck and breed them.  I would die to have a black and white frog and my favorite color is white. ( and yes im aware white isn't a color)


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## Kase (Feb 15, 2004)

*Pumilio*

Did anyone on this forum buy the pumilio? I saw on the kingsnake classifieds that all of them are already sold. Let me know how it all works out, if it was worth it or not.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

> Did anyone on this forum buy the pumilio? I saw on the kingsnake classifieds that all of them are already sold. Let me know how it all works out, if it was worth it or not.


Yeah and the pictures too...  

SB


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## Guest (May 2, 2004)

*D. pumilio Seaside Panama and Indonesia*

Tim,
I am not irritated that you posted my note about the pumilio from Frognet to Dendroboard, but if you had asked first it would have been much better. Plus I might have been able make it a little clearer.

Scott,
Yes, this is like murkey water ---and you (and I both) know what murkey water does to frogs. 

I wish I could clear up all of this murkeyness. 

I have been told by three seperate people that this specific group of D. pumilio had been shipped to Indonesia and then back to Panama before being shipped to Florida. Glenn has written me a very nice note saying that the frogs were not coming from Indonesia, but no details. Other than he is getting 500 more D. auratus and 200 "ruby eyed tree frogs" along with the D. pumilio. 

World Wide Fauna is requiring that the dealers here buy LARGE numbers of D. auratus and tree frogs in order to get the D. pumilio. So the market is about to be flooded with both. And several of the past shipments of farm raised D. auratus from Panama had only a 25% survival rate.

There are several other dealers who are getting D. pumilio in from this and different sources this spring. I have chosen to wait for a more reliable source. The prices will all be about the same. The days of $20 D. pumilio with a 10% survival rate are over, thank goodness. 

I hope with people like Dr. Frye's help, D. pumilio can become much better established in captivity. But they are still a very fragile frog who's egg feeding regeme is still beyond most froggers without many years of experience.

Glenn at Seaside is barred from dealing with a number of shows in Florida for selling sick frogs. There are many other stories about his lack of quality that I have heard but as I have not directly experienced them, I'll just wait for a more reliable opportunity to get more D. pumilio.

I hope that Dr. Frye can report back to Dendroboard about what he finds at Seaside.


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## Guest (May 2, 2004)

*Re: D. pumilio Seaside Panama and Indonesia*

Hey Tracy, I want to know more about your statement "Glenn at Seaside is barred from dealing with a number of shows in Florida for selling sick frogs. There are many other stories about his lack of quality that I have heard but as I have not directly experienced them". I want to hear the many other stories about his lack of quality that you have heard. Can you elaborate on your statement? 





Tracy said:


> Tim,
> I am not irritated that you posted my note about the pumilio from Frognet to Dendroboard, but if you had asked first it would have been much better. Plus I might have been able make it a little clearer.
> 
> Scott,
> ...


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## Guest (May 2, 2004)

> I want to hear the many other stories about his lack of quality that you have heard. Can you elaborate on your statement?



No, Davejoyce, I can't just gossip about Glenn or anyone in a public forum. That is the way lawsuits happen.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

*E-MAIL me privately*

Hey Tracy, I need to know! Shoot a private e-mail to me.



Tracy said:


> > I want to hear the many other stories about his lack of quality that you have heard. Can you elaborate on your statement?
> 
> 
> 
> No, Davejoyce, I can't just gossip about Glenn or anyone in a public forum. That is the way lawsuits happen.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

*"need to know" sounds like only on a need to know*

Davejoyce,

you don't have an email address listed. 

you don't have any description listed.

if you want to get in touch with me privately, please do.

and tell me why something about who you are and what and why you need to know.

[email protected]


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

I have been struggling with this thread for a long while and feel that this an appropriate time to stop my guarded warnings and state my feelings on this issue. Glenn is simply not being treated fairly. I must first recognize that there are rumors floating around that raise questions, but I have not seen anyone with first hand experience stand up and give even a hint to avoid this deal. I have had the opposite experience with Glenn in the past, and have found his WC animals, business practices, and personality well within the norms of this community. Should I be wrong, there still strong evidence that he really wants to make this shipment work. He has really taken a risk to bring some really cool frogs into the US, by placing serious amounts of money, reputation, and the future of his dart frog business on this importation. This is not a one shot deal; he has every reason to make this work to everyone's highest expectations, even if only for monetary reasons. If you are hesitant to jump on this round, wait and see how it goes. I may be eating these words  I, of course, wish this was more cut and dry, but Glenn may just surprise this doubtful community and do something that hasn't be done on this scale and detail in a while.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

....maybe it's the price on said frogs that has us all so edgy....?

-Bill J.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

People with pumilio experience, please view my latest post under the advanced heading. I am looking for assistance. Thank you.


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## Guest (May 3, 2004)

I must say that i have never seen so much drama revolving around an amphibian deal that has been sold out already. I would suggest, as thoughts of law suites, speculation, general ranting ect. run amuck,.........let the PM rule.

Rich


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Where can one find info on this shipment? I personally really want a pair of blue jean pumilios, and well, there just isn't anywhere to get them CB. So I would like to look over this deal. Does anyone have a link?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have to agree, I would be all for it for double the price he was paying, but not normal prices. I would have bought some at lower prices.



BillJohnson said:


> ....maybe it's the price on said frogs that has us all so edgy....?
> 
> -Bill J.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

> I have to agree, I would be all for it for double the price he was paying, but not normal prices. I would have bought some at lower prices.
> 
> BillJohnson wrote:
> ....maybe it's the price on said frogs that has us all so edgy....?


Kyle and Bill,

I hope I don't upset you guys with this comment, but the money is only part of what has me concerned. The is not that high for these frogs. If they are being farm raised and I hope and trust they are. Then the farmer needs to make enough money to make the effort to actually raise the animals and not just catch wild ones and put that added pressure on the wild populations. 

What concerns me most is these are very fragile frogs. Pumilio do not travel as well as auratus. And several of these last shipments of auratus arrived in bad shape. And the people lined up to buy them are not necessarially the best qualified to care for them. 

This deal has both D. auratus and RETF's as part of the deal. In order for Glenn to get the 20 or so D. pumilio he had to take 100 auratus and 40 RETFs. If you'll notice he's selling them for next to nothing. 

There are other shipments of D. pumilio coming in. I know that Pete at Incredible Pets has two different shipments that he's hoping to get in soon and there are others who are working on the paperwork to get shipments in. Pete will not start selling the frogs and shipping them out until after they have gotten to Florida been checked-out and rested. 

Everyone just seems impatient and that's not good for either the frogs or the pocket book.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It has been pointed out to me that I seem to have a real negative attitude about this deal.

I would like to say what I really think in regards to it, just to make sure it is understood.

First, I am not crazy about Wild Caughts. I understand that these are not considered WC, but unless we have witnesses to the conditions the frogs have been raised in, "farm raised" can be considered as slightly better than WC. Unless you were there (while the frogs were being raised), you have to make assumptions no matter which side of the arrangement you're on (whether you thinkg it is a good thing or a bad thing).

Second, I have had no direct dealings with the Importer. I have friends who do though and I have to say this is not someone I would work with. That is how *I* feel about it. Obviously other people feel differently. I felt this way before I found out he was using images that were not his property to sell these frogs. You would think that he would be able to get pictures of the frogs he is trying to sell? 

Third, I do not feel that anyone who does not have long term experience with Poison Dart Frogs *and* either the facilities, or access to someone with the facilities, to do testing and medicating of these frogs, should be involved with them. If the access to the facilities is via the web (long distance) - *be prepared*. Have the medicines you will need and get the testing done ASAP. And to repeat what others have said... do not "invest" money that you cannot stand to lose. For those wondering... this is where I drop out of the running. I have many, many possible deals in the works for this summer. Some have been a long time coming. I prefer to "invest" the money that might be spent on these frogs into frogs that are CB and stand a much better chance of making it long term (and breeding for me).

Having said all this... *I hope this expirement works*. I say that sincerely. It would bring new morphs into the hobby. It may provide another possibly good source of frogs.

I wish nothing but the best for those involved.

I apologize if I have conveyed anything other than this message.

s


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

First, no worries Tracy, you know more about this than me, and without your help when I first started I would not even be talking about this right now.  I just wish you could have made to IAD this year so I could have met you in person.

I would be fine with this, but it is not the case from what I have heard. The farmers are only getting 1/4 or less of the price. I have heard from more than one source what the price is on each, and the selling price is out of line in my opinion. I agree with a generous mark up, and trying to get a little back for the aratus, but how much? Maybe there are some hidden costs I am unaware of and I could be off, but for me its a bit too risky. I do hope farm raised are better off as I would like to see more in the hobby. Only time will tell, and if all goes well maybe I will be interested in the next shipment.



Tracy said:


> > I hope I don't upset you guys with this comment, but the money is only part of what has me concerned. The is not that high for these frogs. If they are being farm raised and I hope and trust they are. Then the farmer needs to make enough money to make the effort to actually raise the animals and not just catch wild ones and put that added pressure on the wild populations.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

Kyle,

I wish I could have gotten to IAD too. I guess you know what kept me from getting there, but I should be there next year and will look forward to meeting you then.

I haven't seen the breakdown on the monies of this importation but understand your concern. Let see if I can make some comparisons even if they are just guesses:

Were you around a few years ago when Aaron H. brought all those frog in from Europe? I don’t know for sure what the mark up was, but believe he marked them up 50% which I think is very fair, but he lost money. Lots of the smaller frogs like the D. lamasi just didn’t travel well and most died. Aaron had already paid for the frogs and had taken the money for them so was stuck in a bad deal without enough profit to eat the loss. By the way Aaron is a good experienced frogger. He went to Europe, helped pack the frogs and hand carried them back, but still had a fair share of losses and very few of those frogs are still around. Transcontinental shipping is just hard on them.

Now back to this deal. You say that the farmer gets about 25%, so lets say he gets $30 per frog. That’s 120 times as much as he gets for wild caughts. (*see my note below) 

Then the exporter takes over. He’s got to get all the paper work done with both the government and the CITES office. I doubt that he has to bribe the CITES people but would be surprised if doesn’t have to pay off the government official with the stamp of office. Then he has to pack and ship them. That means they have probably not been fed in three or four days before going on board the plane. Do you know the cost of international air freight? I don’t ---but I do know it’s high. And I also know I wouldn’t do it without buying some insurance in case they get too hot or the cargo hole looses pressure. 

So as long as we are speculating lets say the exporter has bought 30 D. pumilio for $30 each and has paid the government guy with his hand out $100, bought insurance for $200 and paid the airfreight of another $200. Then his costs are roughly $1400 so the without any profit the price of the frogs has now risen to $46.67 each and he needs a profit. So he works out a deal to sell the pumilio for lets say $80 each but only if the dealer in the states will also buy 100 D. pumilio for $12 each and 50 red eyes for $22.50 each and as they are way over stocked on these ---and the frogs are beginning to overpopulate their facilities they need to move them before they die off ---so it’s a good deal for the exporter. Now he gets rid of his overstock and gets a marginal price for his frogs, plus the total money is up to just under $4000.

Now the dealer in the Florida has paid $4000 and knows he will have some losses. The D. pumilio he paid $80 apiece for he’s going to sell for $125 each for the normal ones which is far less than the 50% mark-up most retailers work on and will sell the unusual ones for twice that much to make his profit margin. 

So as long as we are speculating ---he has 30 D. pumilio and two thirds of them are normal, so he gets $125 each for 20 or $2500 for them. Then the other third or ten unusual colored frogs he gets $250 each for or $2500 total. So if all the D. pumilio survive and get shipped out he makes $1000 profit off the D. pumilio and makes his gravy off the D. auratus and red eyes. But remember that the last few shipments of the auratus and red eyes have not gotten here in good shape. So he’s still taking a roll of the dice.


*When I was in Guatemala collecting with a group of herpetologists we paid only about 2 quetzals or .25 cents per frog and as much as $1 for a coral snake. Obviously that is not much money to you and me but most of these people were not even making any money for working on the fincas. They were paid in corn and a got their hut free. What they ate they grew or killed. But I can guarantee you that it will take your breath away when a 7 year old kid come walking up to you hold out a three foot long stick with a coral snake tied in the middle of his writhing body with string on the end of the stick pointed at your face.


(remember all of this except the Quatemala part is speculation)


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

Tracy said:


> if the dealer in the states will also buy 100 D. pumilio for $12 each


Oops!!! Sorry!!! it's been a long day and I'm tired --- I meant to say 100 D. auratus here.


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## Guest (May 4, 2004)

I forgot to carry the 2  Great discussion guys! This is really illuminating.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I have the personal feeling that the price will come down on these WC/Farm Raised pumilios. Just like the new color morphs of auratus that started to appear in the hobby a few years ago. Look at them now, Glenn want $18 each. I paid $40 a year and half ago. I can say that I am personally saving and grabbing a few odd jobs at hope of being able get a pair. but I am also preparing myself for the worse. You almost have to create a checklist for your self of what to do with WC/Farmed Raised. This is what I did for my first WC/Farm Raised auratus. It was a good reflection of what I might have did wrong and gives accurate information for future reference. 

1. Quarantine tank and area
2. Local vet willing to work with you ( You may want to bring your own references on amphibian medicine)
3. Prepare tank
4. Varity of food and back up food sources
5. Record all information you can on your frog Daily Log/ Reflection Journal (haaa, I hated this in English class and now I find myself recomending it) 
Example: temp, humidity, when cleaned, time of med. And what type, what was fed, amount of day time, ECT.
6. Find folks wiser than you in the hobby (like the Crazy artist  )
7. HAVE A PLAN B

Later and Happy Frogging,
Jason Juchems


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## christina hanson (Feb 16, 2004)

Great advice. If I may add to it, keep as few frogs to a tank as you can, singles or pairs to reduce stress (feeding and otherwise) and disease spread. 

Also, in the situation where one does die, use a disposable cup or paper towel to dispose of him. We bought some WC blue jeans pumilio in those years when they were still coming in, I was too casual and picked up an expired frog with my bare hands. It took about 15 minutes to get the feeling in that arm back.

Christina


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Great post Tracy, and I agree there may be a lot more than is public knowledge, and I agree it may take a bit more to get there money back. 
There may be a bit of shipping, and insurance costs on top. Hard to tell with out all the details. I do know the rough cost per frog, but will not post it here, but there may be other costs on top of it.

I think a lot of us are waiting to see how this one goes before we make up our mind. I hope anyone who does gets some keeps us up to date on how the frogs are doing.



Tracy said:


> Kyle,
> 
> I wish I could have gotten to IAD too. I guess you know what kept me from getting there, but I should be there next year and will look forward to meeting you then.
> 
> ...


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

From speaking to Glenn he is getting in about 160 pumilios.

Rob


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