# Imitator types and blood lines



## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

So I been trying to get a list of the different imitators and blood lines out their and could use help on it 

nominat- Sins...and i think tor/tod kelly have a line or is that the same as sins? 
intermedius- Fry- Tan- Tarlton- Nabors	
banded intermedius- Tan im pretty shore that is the only one
tarapota- As far as i know only tor 
Yellow/Gold Tarapoto (Inibico)- I know Shawn has some and scott has some but i am not shore who else and or who gots breeding animals?? 
Yellow/Green Cainarachi Valley (Inibico)- Oz has some breeding and I have a group from scott any one else working with these 
yurimaguensis- No idea I think thier is a Tan blood line but I am not shore 

If any one could help me fill in the cracks It would really be helpful..Did i miss any other morphs I know their is a pumpkin orange and a neon red head one (drooling thinking about it) but as far as i know their are none in the hobby right now over here..at least legally.
Brian


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

Intermedius - The Tan line is the same as the Tarlon line

And dendrobates.org has info on a blue legged orange head morph


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

From what Pat told me (concerning mine), his came from Tarlton line too, about 2001-2002. So that would leave Frye and Tarlton. Anyone know where Frye got his?

Problem with the Intermedius is they have been somewhat line-bred, blue legs, stripes, but they are all from the same line. The banded is ofcourse different.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Rich Frye got his from Pat Nabors as well. There is one other bloodline of banded's in the states, this person also has another geographic specific morph similar to bandeds but different and as far as I know none of his line have been released into the hobby yet. 
Mark


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

Tarapota imis have the original line from Tor and also the Mark Pepper line that came in from SNDF 12/07.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Phil isnt the only one with a "line" of bandeds. Not sure I should say right now who though.
There are 5 "lines" of nominat. As far as the yuris, there are two lines but they likely originated from the same european source.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Sins = Sens
Tarapota = Tarapot*o*

There has never been a legal importation of the blue/orange R. imitator pictured above. Any animals of this morph in the trade, whether U.S. or European, are 100% smuggled.

Also, I belive the R. imitator TMP is getting closer to being released (although some could probably speak better to that...I know they've been working hard on it for a while now) and will have extremely thorough and in-depth info regarding all the morphs and lines of imitator in the hobby. I'm interested to see what they've been able to compile...


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

housevibe7 said:


> Phil isnt the only one with a "line" of bandeds. Not sure I should say right now who though.
> There are 5 "lines" of nominat. As far as the yuris, there are two lines but they likely originated from the same european source.


who are the 5? Sens, Tor, Todd, Nabers and ?
Brian


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

> ]Sins = Sens
> Tarapota = Tarapot*o*


Spelling never was my strong point ..thanks for pointing that out..



> There has never been a legal importation of the blue/orange R. imitator pictured above. Any animals of this morph in the trade, whether U.S. or European, are 100% smuggled.


Yes i know i said this in the opening..thanks again for staiting it I am looking for what legale bloodlines are here.
Brian


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

housevibe7 said:


> Phil isnt the only one with a "line" of bandeds. Not sure I should say right now who though.
> There are 5 "lines" of nominat. As far as the yuris, there are two lines but they likely originated from the same european source.


What are the 2 lines?
Brian


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

and are intermedius the same as Huallaga Canyon?
Brian


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

The best thing is to wait until the Imi TMP is released. They have done a lot of research and will hopefully have all of these questions answered. As far as intermedius being the same as Huallaga Canyon, if I am remembering correctly that is a possibility but since we don't have the locale information on the intermedius we have in the hobby it is hard to say and so should be treated separately. 

Nate


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Actually - to the best of my knowledge Rich also has the Tarlton line as well.

We have reproduced two lines. 1 is Tarlton & the other is a combination of Tarlton & Kelly line. We have sold a lot of offspring over the years & I have seen our name out there as well referencing a line. 



markpulawski said:


> Rich Frye got his from Pat Nabors as well. There is one other bloodline of banded's in the states, this person also has another geographic specific morph similar to bandeds but different and as far as I know none of his line have been released into the hobby yet.
> Mark


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

So it sounds like all the Intermedius come back to Tarlton line? Or are the Kelly line from a different importation than Tarlton?


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

[ur=http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/frognet/message/51326l]A la frognet[/url] 
Tarlton got them from Gary Putnam
who got them from Todd Kelley
who got them from John Uhern
who most likely got them from Germany

and an earlier discussion here, on an ad, which is now gone Scott wrote:


> Actually - it is Tarlton.
> 
> And Tarlton bought them from Gary Putnam (from Rochester, NY - now out of the hobby).
> 
> ...


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Yikes. How imbred are our frogs?!


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Very...


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

> Yikes. How imbred are our frogs?!


As long as we keep breaking them down into umpteen billion "lines"...we never really have to think about that.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

...


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## markbudde (Jan 4, 2008)

skylsdale said:


> As long as we keep breaking them down into umpteen billion "lines"...we never really have to think about that.


And the value of posts like these is that it allows those of us with these frogs to know which lines are truly distinct and which it is safe to cross with.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Well I have the Wayne line.

Honestly, this concerns me a great deal in general. What is this hobby going to be like in another ten years with soem of these frogs. I sometimes wish there was a magic way to only allow certain frogs to breed. It concerns me almost anyone can do it. The lack of diversity also concerns me, and the apparant line breeding going on with Intermedius.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Thats why mark, like someone else said... the imitator tmp is about to be finished. Once that is done it lays all of that out.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Honestly, this concerns me a great deal in general. What is this hobby going to be like in another ten years with soem of these frogs. I sometimes wish there was a magic way to only allow certain frogs to breed. It concerns me almost anyone can do it. The lack of diversity also concerns me, and the apparant line breeding going on with Intermedius.


This is why ASN management of certain species will be imperative. To take Imis as an example - for nominat imitator, INIBICO imported nearly 200 frogs representing a substantial genetic base (i.e. large founder population). We also know where these frogs from in the wild. While 20 frogs can capture >95% of the wild genetics, our aim is to establish a founder population of 75-100 frogs. With proper management of these frogs, they can be as genetically diverse as their counterparts in the wild.

If you are considering working with D. imitator "nominat" - then I would encourage you to work with the Cainarachi Valley (INIBICO) Imis and register them in ASN. I believe Sean still has some import frogs available, as well as F1s. The same goes for D. variabilis - which is in a similar situation.

As for the comment about how inbred our frogs really are, it is important to note that many of the frogs that originated in Europe were established in the US as a single breeding pair/group or two. And they represent the founding stock for most of the CB frogs available in the US hobby. This obviously isn't the case for all of the frogs, but it is certainly the case for some of them.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

But I still think inbreeding is a valid concern, especially with the incredibly arbitrary (and in my opinion imaginary) distinctions drawn between some populations of frogs, particularly standard imitator. At this time, I believe ASN is advocating separate management of INIBICO standard imitator, but makes no specific recommendations as regards all other standard imitator in the hobby, allowing keepers to manage them as they choose but recognizing no specific distinction among the many vague (and again in my opinion, already unquestionably cross-bred) lines.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Well, if we pull out ye ol' ASN handbook, there is a decision tree for assigning specimens to populations:

*1a* Specimen is associated with accurate geographic locality info.....2
*1b* No geographic locality info for the specimen is known.....7

For the nominat imitator in the hobby (excluding the INIBICO ones) we have to choose 1b, which takes us down to:

*7a* Specimens of identitical morphology are known from only one locality or population in the wild.....c

From what I understand, the nominal form of _R. imitator_ is a single population in the Cainarachi Valley (someone correct me if you know otherwise...Evan? Jason? Mark?). Within that population is actually a considerable amount of variation (which, as Nate just stated, we've used as visual cues to seperate them into various lines). This brings us to:

*c* Assign specimen to a single population with all specimens from within known population range.

I'm sure the TMP will cover all this, but given the tools currently available in the ASN handbook, it seems to me that that the INIBICO nominats should be managed as a single population and all other nominat imitators should be managed as a single population.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

skylsdale said:


> I'm sure the TMP will cover all this, but given the tools currently available in the ASN handbook, it seems to me that that the INIBICO nominats should be managed as a single population and all other nominat imitators should be managed as a single population.


One distinction to make is between a population being managed and maintained. Actively managed species will be given all resources available to ensure that the maximal genetic diversity is protected. For other populations, they will be maintained - so while an effort will be made to keep them present in the hobby - there may not be much management at the TMG level.

For D. imitator nominat - this situation is made a bit easier, as the INIBICO Cainarachi Valley frogs are a Category 3 population (known origin, "clean" history). This means they will receive active management. All of the other frogs are Category 1 frogs (unknown exact origin, "holes" in the history). So, as it looks right now, the Imi TMP will make no recommendations on how the other lines should be mixed. So far, most of the evidence suggests that the nominat frogs all originated from the same place. So, if a steward (or anyone else for that matter) determines they want to mix their Kelley frogs with their Tan "German" frogs, that is up to them. If their frogs are registered in ASN and they keep track of their breedings, all of that info will be in the system. However, if they would prefer to keep their Kelley line frogs bred to other Kelley line frogs and so on, that is also fine. This situation is possible only because of the INIBICO CV frogs being a Category 3.

Now - this situation changes a little when we get to intermedius. For D. intermedius (for the most part), we have no Category 3 animals. So far it seems that all animals in the hobby are from European importations, so we have little info on the source of the animals past that (N.B. - intermedius is still being worked out, and it is probably the one thing that is currently holding the Imi TMP back). So given the situation, and by following the ASN handbook - it would seem then as if all of the intermedius populations should be mixed. But before we make that recommendation, we need to be really sure that we can't find specific info to trace a "line" back to a common source that provides more info. Mixing is easy, unmixing is hard.

Probably more than what everyone was looking to hear, but I figured I would just describe the situation that the Imi TMG is currently assessing. There have been 3 others working on the TMP (Sarah, Nate, and Shawn), and we have had input from MANY people in the hobby. We really hope to have it worked out in the near future.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

This is very helpful in general Oz. There is too much misinformation out there today regarding many of these frogs and we need to put it out.


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

This stuff is really fascinating. I have to agree with npaull that it will be good to see some of the imaginary lines and distinctions that we have created over time dissolve. 

Nate


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