# Connecting multiple vivs to great larger enclosures



## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

Has anyone her ever thought about or attempted to connect multiple vivs via cutting holes to create corridors. I'm no expert on the subject but I have been brainstorming ways to more cost effectively build larger vivs for either groups of ranitomeya or the feared mixed species viv. To me connecting 2 or more vivs via 2 corridors would help to mitigate a few of the concerns with keeping larger groups or mixing species. What do you guys think ?


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## SirRobby (Aug 28, 2017)

still wouldn't mix. just dont haha. it's not worth the headache and backlash you'll get. i could see it being possible with clear tubing and silicone. at the headache it takes to buy the tanks, cut the glass, put them together, seal them...and every other step you'd be better off just building your own viv. Glass is relatively cheap & there's a lot of conversion kits out there. Wait for petco/petsmart/pet supplies for their $1 a gallon sale & go buy like a 75 or something


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You mention cost as being an issue. Acrylic is much more expensive than glass, so it only makes sense to go glass.
Where will you find glass tubes to connect them? Acrylic does not bond to glass, so acrylic tubes are not a viable option.
If you do find glass tubes, and manage to build it, can you imagine trying to move it? If not moved perfectly together, the tube and one tank could act as a lever, easily breaking away from the second tank.
Mixing guidelines would all still apply. In fact there is no getting around the possible creation of a "Novel Pathogen". Putting together a group of animals that would never see each other in the wild, can allow pathogens to evolve into something different, something new, and possibly something untreatable. I have seen it surmised that the Chytrid responsible for so much damage across the world, may very well be a novel pathogen created by careless hobbyists.
Everybody likes to ignore this one, because chances for this to happen are not great. It is, however, quite possible. 
I, for one, don't think I'd like being the hobbyist responsible for unleashing the next new plague on the world.

If you must mix, mix animals from the same area. Mix animals that could possibly run across each other in the wild.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

I wasn't actually talking about connecting the vivs across any sort of space or sealing them together . I would cut or drill out a 1.5" diameter hole in each viv one set high in the viv and one set low. The vivs would be butted up against each other with the holes lined up and the layout would flow from one to the next so they could cross via a ledge or branch that would slide 80% of the way down the holes to help secure the vivs together. A design that would mirror the buttressing of large trees would help to keep the frogs from just trying to hop through the glass.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

Also any mixing of species would only include species that occur within each other natural range such as banded imitators and reticulated fants or any imitators and the species they imitate.


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## thenatureterrarium (May 13, 2017)

Sounds like a cool idea but I don't think it has anything to do with mixing. You are assuming the frogs will be able to escape from each other with such a large habitat. I don't think this is realistic.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

If carefully planned out it can be accomplished in a large enough viv. Why do you feel that having at least 2 vivs connected with more usable space , hiding places and distinct territorial separation via the limited access to each viv. How would that situation be any worse than a large big with ample space.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

If you want 2 species in 2 tanks, why not just keep them seperate? 

You can still make it look like a continuous landscape, but without the hassle.... Plus you could make sure each viv provides the needs for each species instead of hoping they both do well.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

That is definitely the standard way of doing things but I have always been an out of the box kind of person. One of the biggest things that draws me to vivaria and frogs is the replication of an entire ecosystem. If you keep frogs that would naturally interact in the wild it's possibly to come that one step closer to the replication of nature. The interspecie interactions as long as they are monitored to insure a manageable level of stress on the individuals would enhance the experience of the keeper. I know pretty much everyone gets killed for even mentioning mixing species but it has been and can successfully be done. Two smaller vivs can be cheaper to buy and modify than the cost of a large enough individual viv.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

If you are dead-set on the concept that two smaller connected enclosures will be infinitely less expensive and more manageable than one large viv, why not just knock out mirrored end panels, and glue the resulting openings together? You will still have an ugly seam between the two, but at least the frogs could use the entire opening to escape unappreciated pressures on either side without having to locate the smaller porthole passages.


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## aussieJJDude (May 13, 2017)

Things have been done in the hermit crab community, using acrylic piping and drilling a hole in a cork flat siliconed onto the glass. The crabs quickly learn where the hole is and able to pass through easily.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

What if you took off the one side of both tanks and then butted them together and and siliconed them it’s a lot of work but it’s the same idea but a better result I️ feel 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

It sounds like you already know what you are going to do, no matter the advice you receive, so do it.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> It sounds like you already know what you are going to do, no matter the advice you receive, so do it.


Exactly. This is one of my least favorite kind of threads. The poster has what they consider an "out-of-the-box" idea. After floating it and it getting a lukewarm reception, the poster proceeds to poke holes in all of the advice that doesn't match what they wanted to do in the first place. Discussion and alternatives are not welcome. 

Mark


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

Dane, that would compromise the structural.integrity of the over all viv hence the only wanting to create a couple of connection points. Dart frogs like most animals who establish territories and are flighty by nature have very well developed hypocampus and would within a matter of less than a week be able to instantly recall the locations of the passages. If the interconnected vivs were of the type that have entire front access doors the entire big could be accessed for pruning and general maintenance without having to reach across the viv or having the entire top open.

Doug, I haven't decided anything yet. This is how a constructive discussion is had. An idea is presented and then information and opinions are made and counter points to that information and opinion. Eventually either all parties agree on one opinion or the other or they walk away agreeing to disagree. More often than not people now days become offended and it devolves into a shouting name calling match.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@RichardSimm,

The benefits of allowing animals to move through larger enclosures is obvious. What I don't understand is how you think the tube portals will help in reducing the problems associated with mixing critters.

First off, you'd need to be sure the both of the connected vivs present the same quality/quantity of hides, basking, calling, feeding and egg deposition/tadpole-rearing spots. Otherwise you will find all your critters gravitating to the nicest areas and competing there, leaving some or all of the other viv vacant. A temperature gradient or position with respect to a window could also bias your critters to one viv or the other.

Once you've done that (which might not be easy since the world looks different to a frog), how do you prevent aggression from crossing the tubes? If I'm a smaller frog being harrassed by a larger frog, he can just follow me through the tube as I try to escape and he continues to harass me.

It seems to be that you end up with a situation where either:

1) The tubes are frequently used and the animals mix constantly (thus gaining no benefit from the separation) OR
2) The tubes are rarely used and the animals might as well be in separate enclosures. In this scenario, critters from one viv or the other would likely end up "lost" in the wrong viv for a while before finding their way back.

If all you want is the ability to achieve a larger vivscape by connecting smaller vivs, I think your idea is fine. If you are hoping from some benefit of the connecting tubes over and above the larger area of animals to explore - such as reducing the various risks associated with mixing species, I don't think connecting tubes offer any benefit.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

Kimnmich, there wouldn't be any tubes connecting the vivs that would generate an entire dimension of structural issues unto itself. Picture 2 exoterra 24x18x24 vivs with the single strip of base that would create separation between the two vivs removed so they are glass to glass. The holes in the vivs would be exactly matching creating a roughly .25" thick piece of glass as opposed the .125" inch thick glass that the two vivs are constructed from. You could create an additional line of sight barrier allowing each frog more potential hiding places in each individual viv. In my scenario attention to detail would be of the utmost importance . Each viv as you say would have to be of equal quality in all aspects. As I stated earlier dart frogs like all prey animals that establish territories and rely on quick twitch muscles for escape they have a very highly developed hippocampus allowing them to created detailed mental maps of their surroundings. It is highly likely every frog in the vivs would be able to instantly recall the entire construction the viv and it's hiding , feeding , displaying and egg stashing sites in very short order.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@RichardSimm,

The length or lack thereof of the connecting tubes/portals is not the thrust of my point. And I agree, the frogs will get to know their habitat quickly. As I said, though, I don't see how the portals add substantially to the experience of 2 separate or 1 single viv. Either you end up with frogs mixing on both sides with any aggression taking place in both tanks or you end up with frogs that keep to their own vivs and rarely use the portals. In either case, there is no advantage to connecting the vivs apart from being able to use 2 smaller vivs rather than one big one.

You started this thread by asking whether "connecting 2 or more vivs via 2 corridors would help to mitigate a few of the concerns with keeping larger groups or mixing species." I think the consensus answer to that is No. 

I don't think there is any problem with your idea over and above the issues inherent in mixing species (which are not trivial) - I just don't think you get much value for the effort of connecting the vivs.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

I could see the value and interest in using such a setup with a group of what we typically consider monogamous frogs such as imitators. For example Adding a group of 2.2 to two tanks that are connected might allow them to pair off in a more natural manner.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

This sounds like a nightmare on about 8 different levels. In my (professional) advice, don't do this.


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## jpm995 (Sep 15, 2013)

What size viv are you considering? It seems like more trouble than its worth and if it's tempered glass chances are it breaks. I would just go with a big fish tank [Petco has a $ a gallon sale up to 55 gal] or craigslist has tanks up to 150 gal and larger for cheap.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

Might be interesting to split a 55 gallon tank in 2 but have small passage ways that could be blocked off even. Put pairs of imitators, same type, in each half. Your not gaining any space but it should be a safe way to try your idea. Best to have experience with imitators and keep an eye on them should you need to separate them.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

I was considering 2 24x18x24 exoterra vivs or 2 40 breeders depending on the intended species. It would be interesting to keep a pair of imitators with a pair of the species they imitate.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

RichardSimm said:


> I was considering 2 24x18x24 exoterra vivs or 2 40 breeders depending on the intended species. It would be interesting to keep a pair of imitators with a pair of the species they imitate.


Sure, other than the obvious risk of hybridizing. You'd have to cull each and every offspring. Sounds fun.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

I'm still not sure what the benefit of connecting tanks is versus just starting with a larger tank, other than maybe being a complex visual barrier. 

Regardless, mixing within 80 gallons of tank space seems like a bad idea. Mixing animals within the same genus in 80 gallons seems like an even worse idea.

Pat


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

You two do know that the species I am talking about exist within the same niche in the same environment and don't hybridize. The imitators species imitates the other species in color and pattern yet they still are distinct species . It's pretty amazing the lack of basic scientific and evolutionary biology some of you guys have.


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

Several species of ranitomeya maintain home ranges as small as 2 square meters others as large as 35 square meters all over lap with others of their own species but rarely engage in interspecies aggression or territorialiy. That's all with in the context of competition for resources and breeding sites in the wild not within the context of dense food availability and ample prime breeding and brooding sites.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

"Rarely engage"

Is that really what you're going to base your assertion on? You can look at a number of papers that show there are hybridization zones between morphs, as well as overlapping populations where there doesn't seem to be any interbreeding at all. Point is, you choosing two Ranitomeya and throwing them in a small, artificial habitat and thinking they can't hybridize is absurd.

Not to mention, just because multiple species, or even multiple morphs occur within a similar range, doesn't mean they come in contact with each other or that there's no natural barrier between them.

Twomey, E. et al. Reproductive isolation related to mimetic divergence in the poison frog
Ranitomeya imitator.Nat. Commun. 5:4749 doi: 10.1038/5749 (2014).

"A number of species display remarkable intraspecific diversity in colour–
pattern, although in most cases the source of divergent selection among populations is unclear. In Ranitomeya imitator, intraspecific divergence in colour–pattern is associated with selection for Mullerian mimicry, which led to the establishment of four distinct mimetic morphs of this species in central Peru. These morphs resemble three different model
species (one of the model species, R. variabilis, has two morphs itself, both mimicked by
R. imitator), and occur in different geographic regions, forming a ‘mosaic’ of mimetic morphs.
Where different morphs come into contact, narrow hybrid (or ‘transition’) zones are formed"


Pat


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## RichardSimm (Dec 10, 2012)

Well then Pat , what makes you confident any of the individual species currently in the trade from these species and regions are pure species ? Collection sites are almost invariably best guess or outright lies to avoid law enforcement. If natural intergrades exist then what would be the concern if you wind up making them in a mixed species enclosure?


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

RichardSimm said:


> Well then Pat , what makes you confident any of the individual species currently in the trade from these species and regions are pure species ? Collection sites are almost invariably best guess or outright lies to avoid law enforcement. If natural intergrades exist then what would be the concern if you wind up making them in a mixed species enclosure?


Go ask Mark Pepper where he's getting his frogs. If you think he's lying to you about all the Ranitomeya from UE, then I don't know what to tell you.

I couldn't care less what you concoct in your Frankentank, but I'd hope you have the decency, or at least a half a brain not to release them out into the hobby.

Pat


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Why do you want to do this?
Options:
*Just because:* Fair enough people do all sorts of things just because. Maybe its just so you can say this is what I did and its cool. I have seen some very cool aquariums that were made just because! There is going to be a more specific emotional motivation here too and the more specific you can be the better. IE I enjoy showing people who come over complex and unique things so I picked dart frogs for their unique behavior and I want a funky complex of 2 or more connected vivariums. At this point you may move to planning to see if it is physically possible and what the best options are and try to avoid mistakes. 


*Save money*: I find all to often the goal of saving money in this hobby ends up costing people money (actually that's a common trend in all areas of human behavior). I suggest if you desire this you should do a full  account of all the associated costs of doing it. Seen quite a number of scenarios where people convince themselves they are saving money only to be spending more money, breaking even, or only saving a couple bucks which isn't worth it once you consider all the down sides. Screw in LED lights were my favorite example once they seem cheaper at first glance but once you throw in the fixture, cords, stands or mounts, and the rats nest of wires and aesthetic issues it was more expensive and a far worse solution than just buying an appropriate aquarium LED light. So how much will the glass hole saw cost, how much for the connecting material, is your time worth anything? Etc.. Right now I can go to Petco, and see that a 18x24x18 exo terra is $150 and a 36x18x36 is 265 all have free shipping so its cheaper to buy 1 larger enclosure and this gives you a better look and more flexibility for hard scape and plants. Now think about lights, you may have to buy different lights for 2 separate vivs rather than 1 full length long one. This may also cost more. Separate glass tops and screen vents, may cost more. IMO most dart froggers have more smaller vivariums so they can keep more different species, not because its cheaper than the same volume of larger vivariums.

*Special circumstances:* I have not seen them thus far in your posts. For instance going back to LED lights, some people already had a whole system of fixtures in place so screw ins are cheaper and easier but they don't tell people this and confuse new froggers by recommending the screw ins, and the new froggers have to buy all the parts. You mentioned a hole that is high and hole that is low so that suggests you are not putting these vivs on the same plane? Or are you mentioning 2 sets of connections? Maybe you want to put them back to back or at some angle or fit them in some custom built in cabinets. Those are all reasonable reasons to do something custom. 

*Better space arrangement: *Alluded to in your first post and others have discussed it heavily. Onw issue is that small holes may not be utilized and may not really allow frogs to escape bullying from each other if they can't find their way to and from them quickly. Think about it like if you were playing tag and you had to do so in the woods, or in a house. I am pretty sure I could tag you easier in a house because I could corner you easier or predict your desire to escape out a door. In the woods you could run away almost indefinitely with nearly infinite options for movement. 

To me the most important part is that you be fully honest about your motives. And don't get into an argument where you are constantly trying to justify something that will never end because if you don't state you true intentions for any reason you are going to leave yourself wide open to a logical or ethical debate you will not win. Trust me been around enough of these to know. And if you come across rational people (like myself) and you give them false motives they will try their best to steer you in the best direction, except because you have given them a false motive or rationalization they are not going to be able to steer you in the best direction or one you want to be steered in. 

Here's a great example, A particular woman I know wanted to buy a Michael Kors purse. She began arguing about the merits of said purse, stating that it was made better, it was stylish and unique, and blah blah. This argument of course fell flat and turned into giant ordeal because Michael Kors just copies other brands, and his quality isn't any better than purses that are much cheaper. Had this person simply stated that this is a brand that I want to be seen sporting among my friends because it gives me some sort of emotional satisfaction either by fitting in or beating them. well game over swipe the credit card I get the motive now you may fit in, want to upgrade so you can one up them? Now I have a clear motive and can properly help solve the problem and we can even come to terms with how much money we are willing to spend to satisfy that emotional desire. 

This may take some digging on your part, I even know that sometimes people don't even know how to articulate their motives, heck a lot of people don't even know what their true motives are until someone challenges their logic.


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## wcarterh (Dec 25, 2017)

patm said:


> Go ask Mark Pepper where he's getting his frogs. If you think he's lying to you about all the Ranitomeya from UE, then I don't know what to tell you.
> 
> I couldn't care less what you concoct in your Frankentank, but I'd hope you have the decency, or at least a half a brain not to release them out into the hobby.
> 
> Pat


This brings up an interesting question. In the wild, the are less likely to interbreed due to differing locations. 

However, something that has been noted in "pure breeding" cats and dogs is the proclivity to breed in genetic issues. Examples are dysplasia, patellar luxation, mitral valve disease, or even canine syringomyelia (to name a few). I'm curious if this has been noted yet with dendros or mantellas? 

I do, to a point, understand the.... desire to keep a "pure breed" (or species in scientific classification terms). I, personally, have significant reservations for wild caught animals, especially those such as dendros. You have the issue of possible diseases, parasites/infections, the means by which they are captured, and possibly the most important, endangering a species. However, in the years I've been lurking on different boards, I've not seen the issues posed by inbreeding mentioned. Easily possible I could have missed it, yes. But one that's a basic tenant of genetics. One that is taught in Primary school biology in the US.


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