# mixing sp.



## john_159 (Feb 18, 2004)

its probably been asked a million times but i couldnt find it on the search tab... what do u guys think of adding a single azureus to a trio of well established but not breeding leucs in a 20L? my girlfriend wants to get me one for v day and its hard to say no.


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

Most people here frown upon mixing.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

The leucs and azureus could interbreed, so it would not be such a good idea.

Luke


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Well, first off three frogs in a 20L is already pushing the limits of crowding.
Why not just get another ten gallon (you can find them under 10 bucks if you look hard enough) and use that for you're new frog?


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## ManofMusic (Aug 31, 2004)

Can anybody provide proof that leucs and azureus could interbreed? I find that to be highly unlikely...


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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

There are a number of documented cases between those two frogs, I am not sure if anyone here has any pictures, but it is easy to find pictures of other leuc crosses. Tracy had pictures of many different crosses, if you are interested in seeing what the frog looks like he may be a good person to talk to.

Alexander


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

I believe that there is a picture of one in Bill Samples/ Jack Wattley's Poison Dart Frog Book. 


Also, this seems like a beginner question, no? I for one am growing tired of seeing newbie type questions on an advanced discussion board. It seems to be getting worse lately.


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## RSines (Feb 15, 2004)

I agree with Alexander. Tracy has great pictures of hybrids. 

Any frogs in the 'tinct' group will easily interbreed. Why not move the 3 leucs to a 20 H and put a pair of azureus in that 20L? :wink: 

-Richard


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

Here is the link to Tracy Hicks hybrid webpage. You will find the bottom picture is a leuc/azureus cross. Keep them seperate, it will be the best thing for the frogs.

http://www.tracyhicks.com/Kfrogs.htm


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rompida said:


> Also, this seems like a beginner question, no? I for one am growing tired of seeing newbie type questions on an advanced discussion board. It seems to be getting worse lately.


I've said before that I think it's a mistake to separate beginner and advanced discussions. It's not good for the beginners if they end up just talking to each other because everybody else is tired of a subject.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

To get mad about someone posting a beginner question in the advanced question is slightly immature. This is a message board for people seeking help. If you don't want to respond a beginner question in the advanced section, don't respond to it then. Someone is looking for help, if you can, and are willing to help that person, please do so. What qualifies as a beginner topic and as an advanced topic anyway?


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

as said before the major issue here is space, 4 frogs in a 20 gallon would be cramped and then you would multiply any risk of stress related problems from having a mixed tank... also having seperate beginner and advanced sections can be problematic, i never look in the beginer section... if you don't want to answer the question, don't click on the thread...


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## ManofMusic (Aug 31, 2004)

Thanks for the link to the hybrid pic. I must admit I am surprised .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "as said before the major issue here is space, 4 frogs in a 20 gallon would be cramped and then you would multiply any risk of stress related problems from having a mixed tank"

While this is conventional dogma, this is not an absolute rule, its a rule of thumb. 

See some of the discussion in http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4532


Ed


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

mydumname said:


> What qualifies as a beginner topic and as an advanced topic anyway?


Agreed. I would say mixing species is an advanced topic often asked by beginners.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

It is definately a common question. How would a beginner know not to mix certain species? They wouldn't, usually. That is why they need to be helped. When someone steps into this hobby, they see so many awesome looking frogs that it may be hard to choose just one. This brings about the question that "maybe I don't need to choose just one." These, I would believe is a common thought that many people have. If you look at different breeder sites it is oftern addressed in a care guide. The reason is because so many people venturing into this hobby have this question, so it is smart to post it on the breeders website, not only to help the newcomer, but to possibly answer any questions without having to directly speak to them.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

It is a common question, and I feel, a beginner question as well. Every beginner asks it. In fact, I think it would be a good question to post on a FAQ for beginning frog keeping. I'm not trying to bash newcomers, but as someone that has been in the hobby for many years, I like being able to see some advanced discussion posts without sifting through these type posts, or posts like, " my (insert frog name) has laid eggs, now what do I do?" Those should definitely be in the beginner section. Maybe a Dendroboard FAQ would be a good project for the future. 

Brent, I respectfully have to disagree. You know we lost alot of members from a certain other discussion board/forum because of aggravation with this issue. The fact that dendroboard seperates (or attempts to) these discussions is what attracted me to it.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rompida said:


> Brent, I respectfully have to disagree. You know we lost alot of members from a certain other discussion board/forum because of aggravation with this issue. The fact that dendroboard seperates (or attempts to) these discussions is what attracted me to it.


I know. And I also know that I was a large part of the problem. But if the experienced people only look in the advanced sections, what kind of advice are the beginners going to get? And what will happen to their frogs? I do agree that something like how to care for eggs is a beginner question but mixing species is a common question that has a very complex answer behind it as you know. Just look at the very advanced threads that have transpired on this very topic. Interestingly, the one that Ed started got criticized for being in the Beginner section when some of the participants felt the topic was too advanced. I understand the desire to restrict participation to advanced topics but I'm just not sure how practical it is other than just quickly skimming threads and ignoring the ones you don't like.

The other thing I don't like about a beginner section is that I worry that it makes people feel inadequate or stupid if they post there. FAQs are certainly a great idea and that "other forum" has a pretty good one.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

John,

Putting aside the question of interbreeding between species for the moment, you always need to be attentive to aggression between species or even within a species for that matter and crowding as factors leading to problems. In particular, introducing a new animal into an already populated setup, even if one is dealing with the same species, needs to be carefully monitored. There are exceptions to this rule of thumb but I err on the side of segregation and maximizing the space provided for each animal.

Elmo


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## ManofMusic (Aug 31, 2004)

Oops.


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## farmchica22 (Sep 6, 2004)

Now I'm not trying to pick any fights or start any wars but this is the exact issue that has been bugging me since I submitted my first post (which wasn't all that long ago, I know ).

Concerning the topic of what is "advanced" and what is "beginner" I agree with Brent. I am a beginner and reading posts like this one does make me feel inadequate. I get the impression that us "newbies" should just stay in the beginner discussion and leave the advanced to the "elites."

This of course irritates me greatly...

I sometimes feel as though we have all gone back to High School where its the upperclassmen versus the underclassmen. I'm pretty sure that this was not the intent of the discussion boards.

The question of mixing species, in my opinion, belongs in the advanced discussion. Beginners with this question don't particularly want the advice of other beginners (and I at least get the impression that the Beginner Discussion is where all the beginners are suppose to congregate and the Advanced Discussion is where all the others go). And yes, perhaps mixing should be put in an FAQ, but the main point is that us "newbies" post it in the advanced area because we value the opinions and views of those individuals who have been participating in this hobby for a while. And yes, it has been asked multiple times, but if you're sick of reading it, then don't post a reply. Or if you absolutely feel the need to respond then don't be so negative to the person who originally posted the question. If I recall, every question is a good question, its the ones that don't get asked that are the bad ones.

There's no need to make us "newbies" feel anymore lost and questing than we already are.

This has been bothering me for a while and I just couldn't hold it in any longer. And again, I don't mean to step on anyone's toes or start any fights, just stating my feelings.

-Jen
(Oh, and the whole "Oops" thing in ManofMusic's post was me almost posting this in his name...sorry )


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Jen,

Just to be fair to those who do like to see a separate beginners and advanced section. I don't think it is ever anyone's intent to segregate the beginners off to their own little corner. It is simply people wanting to find efficient ways to participate in the threads they are most interested in. I can't blame people for getting bored reading the same subjects over and over but that's just the way it is it seems. I didn't mean to hijack the thread though so I'll stay out of it. 

Elmo,

That's a good point about inter (between) and intra(within) species competition. Intraspecific competition actually can potentially be stronger than interspecific because individuals of the same species are attempting to occupy the same niche.


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## bradadams (Jun 3, 2004)

I think that mixing is definitely a beginner question. How many beginners know if mixing is ok? Probably not very many. How many advanced froggers know the answer to that question? Probably most. What is the answer? 

As far as feeling inferior if you are a beginner and can only comprehend the beginner section. I hope nobody feels that way. I think it is the responsibility of the more knowledgeable froggers to read the beginner section occassionally and answer question that they can. At least that is what I do.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Wow, I guess no one bothered to read my posts. I stated that there are numerous FAQs with this topic already there. 

Example:

"How many frogs can I house in a fifty-five gallon aquarium? What are good species to mix together? 

I am frequently approached by beginning hobbyists, full of enthusiasm, who describe elaborate enclosures, which they have recently assembled. They are now looking for a group of frogs, two or three species, which they can buy and place in the tank. 

Unfortunately this is a lot harder than it sounds. The first potential problem is that the only frogs consistently available for purchase in the market are small four to twelve week old froglets. These small frogs can really have problems acclimating to a large tank. See the care sheet on setting up baby frogs for a discussion of this problem. 

The second problem is that dart frogs are territorial, and it is hard to set up a tank the size of a fifty-five gallon aquarium and have enough room for two animals which decide to duke it out. Two such animals are really not that common, but it is worth considering. But even in the absence of actual fighting, in most cases a group of frogs develops a pecking order, which results in frogs which are lower on the totem pole growing significantly slower than the others. These problems as well as others leave the frogs in this sort of tank much more vulnerable to diseases and other problems, especially during the first two or three months after the frogs are set up together.

In reality this approach is kind of the fantasy tank, and while these setups can be made to work, it is generally not the best way for a beginner to start in the hobby.

After saying all that, I will make a general recommendation for a species mix. I think a group of terrestrial frogs, such as any of the tinctorius, or auratus and azureus, mix nicely with the Dendrobates imitator. The imitator will occupy a niche in the upper part of the tank, and the terrestrial frogs will spend most of their time on the floor of the tank. A tank at least the size of a thirty would be recommended for this. Make sure to have some bromeliads and plants in the upper part of the tank for the imitators" (http://www.saurian.net/htm/faqs_frogs.htm).



This was not written by a beginner to a beginner. If you classify as those who post in the beginnners as beginners, then why should they be able to answer this question. they can't. If they try to, they can get the answer correct, but it is just based on what they have been told. They have not attempted this themselves to see how to do this. This of course does not apply to all. Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just answer his question, rather than going on complaining about things. This is like the 25th post, or close to, and he still has not been told a good answer, just that it is frowned upon or they interbreed. I think it that the above quote is a decent answer. Now I wonder why Patrick has a good business and is respected in this hobby, could it possibly be his knowledge of these frogs and willingness to assist both the "beginner" and the "more advanced" hobbyist. Everyone starts at the bottom.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*mixing species*

There are aspects of this question that belong in both the beginner and advanced forums. I don't believe any of us has the right to tell anyone how to keep their frogs UNLESS it concerns the health of the animals. People get in this hobby for different reasons. Most of us feel an obligation to reproduce the animals we work with and the financial aspect of reproducing frogs is usually only a small part of that responsibility.
There is a lady here in Sarasota that has a very nice 150 gallon terrarium, in it she has solid orange Galacs, green and bronze Auratus, Amazonicus, Castaneoticus and now Bastimentos Pumilio. She will rarely pull a clutch of Galacs eggs from the tank (much to my chagrin), but other than that she has no intent other than to provide a varied and life like environment for her animals and to enjoy watching them.
I am sure all of the advanced hobbyists on this forum would agree that taking excellent care a diverse group of species of darts in one terrarium is not only acceptable but to be admired. There are plenty of breeders of frogs in the hobby but to see someone keep frogs for the joy of it is quite refreshing.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip The second problem is that dart frogs are territorial, and it is hard to set up a tank the size of a fifty-five gallon aquarium and have enough room for two animals which decide to duke it out. Two such animals are really not that common, but it is worth considering. But even in the absence of actual fighting, in most cases a group of frogs develops a pecking order, which results in frogs which are lower on the totem pole growing significantly slower "


A lot of this can be alleviated through the use of one or more feeding stations and providing sufficient interruptions of sight lines. If we are talking about reproductive adults, then this can also be alleviated through the use of multiple nesting/calling sights once again with some form of sightline interruption (even something as little as the direction the entrance to the hut for example can deal with this problem). 

Ed


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## john_159 (Feb 18, 2004)

thanks to all who answered the question and to everyone else i think the forum could do without the drama.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2005)

I recently have had the previlage of reading "The Fantastic Journey through Ecuador-Peru-Colombia" 3 book series, and in many parts it is mentioned and shown where different species and morphs of same species are found in very close proximenty to each other. Would we not be a little narrow minded to think that these creatures never intermingle or survive side by side ? I personally cant wait to construct a very large tank with different Bio areas and yes with various species, why , so I can observe and learn. Sometimes I think to much effort is made in providing the magnolia leaves and the just so perfect cork bark back drop, and fancy mosses.Dont get me wrong I do it also , but in reading these books and looking at the pictures , its opened my eyes to the actual enviroment these frogs live in.Leave litter (rotted) , some hot and dry areas.In book three near the end page 285,286, the author comments on finding D.auratus and a Atelopus (A.sporelli) both species in a biotope with Histrionicus.Also orange and black Histrionicus and immediately next to them, yellow ones, with no sign of cross breeding?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

zoso said:


> I recently have had the previlage of reading "The Fantastic Journey through Ecuador-Peru-Colombia" 3 book series, and in many parts it is mentioned and shown where different species and morphs of same species are found in very close proximenty to each other. Would we not be a little narrow minded to think that these creatures never intermingle or survive side by side ?


But don't forget that our vivaria are far from natural conditions and frogs are squeezed into much tighter spaces than they would be found in the wild. This can amplify both interspecific and intraspecific interactions. Ed's thread points out some ways we might address this but my advice remains that before contemplating a mixed tank, the hobbyist should get to know the frogs as individual species first. This just makes it easier to interpret whether observed interactions in a mixed species tank might be a problem.

As for different morphs of the same species being found in the same area. I wish we would pay more attention to this. I've been arguing to no effect that some wild populations are simply variable and by artificially segregating these variable populations into morphs, we are creating selectively bred lines.


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