# Using "Forest Humus" In Vivariums?



## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I read an article in TWI's Leaf Litter (1.1) about forest humus and the potential benefits of it's use in dart frog vivariums. It was an interesting article and made me wonder if anyone applies this method to their vivs.

So I have a few questions:


Is there anyone who uses it that can offer an opinion on it?
Pros/Cons of using it?
If I chose to incorporate this into future vivs, would this product be ok to use? Ancient Forest Humus
Any suggestions of any other products that would be beneficial? 

Thx All.


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## Raf (Feb 20, 2010)

I personally wouldn't use it as you can't desinfect it properly.
I don't like having a plague of centipedes in my viv for ex.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

You could try that product.... but I wouldn't take humus from the woods and use it. Sterilizing it prior to use would negate its value. 

Really though, you could just get a mycorrhizal innoculant


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## drewman1962 (Apr 16, 2012)

HMMMM?? Interesting. I'm planning on using the great clay substrat in my very first viv. Which I'm putting the enclosure together now. Any ways, I have some cuttings taking root in root in some sphagnum moss. Wondering to myself...what if I top off around the plants with this humus stuff when I plant in my viv.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Check the method that Pumilo uses for inserting cuttings into the clay substrate...surrounding the plants with ABG... and there is long-fibered spagnum moss...and milled spagnum moss....the milled moss is sterile and won't help the cuttings except preventing fungus...long fibered is good stuff and what is recommended for mounting plants on cork, etc. It would be helpful if posters specified which one they use...and also when peat is mentioned, is it the chunky, unrefined garden type, or the processed peat...


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

frogparty said:


> You could try that product.... but I wouldn't take humus from the woods and use it. Sterilizing it prior to use would negate its value.
> 
> Really though, you could just get a mycorrhizal innoculant


The only thing that would worry me is the product description:
"An incredibly high diversity of microorganisms, with more than 35,000 species of *Bacteria* and over 5000 species of *Fungi*"

Also, I'm not so sure that an innoculant, while close, is not quite the same thing as humus. An innoculant would provide the fungi, but that's about it. Even the product I provided doesn't contain everything that "wild" humus would. The whole point of using humus, is to introduce the many different arthropods that our vivariums do not normally contain, to complete the same nutrient cycle in our vivariums that frogs in the wild are exposed to.


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

I found a lengthy article that mainly talks about microbes in peat, but there is a section comparing "Ancient Forest Humus" to Peat. If you scroll down about 3/4, you will find a section called Tests, Observations and Postulations. In this section, the author says the Forest Humus is basically the same as Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss.

Microbe Organics

Take what you want from it, but I decided to skip the forest humus.


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## Raiden (Aug 2, 2012)

Believe me, I understand the desire to keep disease out of enclosures containing small, delicate amphibians specimens, but sometimes you dendrobatid guys go a little nuts with the whole sterilization thing.

These frogs come from places with insane soil organism diversity. Many frogs (and amphibians in general) also synthesize polypeptides from their skin that combat troublesome microbes.

In a healthy forest, most of the microbes found in the topsoil layer will not be pathogenic, and most of them will be decomposers. 

You kind of want those in your tank/enclosure/vivarium/etc. for obvious reasons; the help break down organic matter and keep everything in good shape chemically, as well as helping many plants obtain nutrients more efficiently.

I use locally-collected forest topsoil for *all* of my amphibians, and I rarely have to do any kind of maintenance. I have some 'phibs that live in more simple setups (a C. ornata who lives in a large sweaterbox and a D. guineti that lives in similar settings) and I use it there, and I also use it for my A. macrodactylum salamanders and my other frogs, who live in vivariums. So far, I have had zero issues, and the soil is looking better than the old mix I used, for longer. 

I understand that tiny, sensitive frogs from isolated ecosystems are more fragile than, say, White's Treefrogs, but I think that overlooking the benefit of truly natural soil ecology for the sake of safety is a bit paranoid.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I briefly skimmed thru the article you provided & I'm not quite sure that this applies. This appeared to be centered on "compost tea" which to simplify it is an organic water based natural "fertilizer".

Humus is the top most layer of soil that has been made thru very long periods of time.

I will try to copy/paste the article I read. If I'm able, feel free to read it & then give your opinion.


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## Armson (Sep 8, 2008)

Isn't this a fancy way of saying Dirt?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Here's screenshots of the article. I did it this way so you all could see the pictures also. I hope you are able to read it still.




























Sent from my Galaxy Note II using Tapatalk 2


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## Cory2 (Oct 21, 2012)

In a way it is just dirt,but it's very fertile dirt,formed from decomposed organic material. It seems like it would be a great growing medium.


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## Armson (Sep 8, 2008)

OK OK 

Super Dirt.


Where do I get a copy of that article or magazine?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

chillplants said:


> I found a lengthy article that mainly talks about microbes in peat, but there is a section comparing "Ancient Forest Humus" to Peat. If you scroll down about 3/4, you will find a section called Tests, Observations and Postulations. In this section, the author says the Forest Humus is basically the same as Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss.
> 
> Microbe Organics
> 
> Take what you want from it, but I decided to skip the forest humus.


I have significant doubts about the accuracy of the comparision based on only on the methodology used but the attempt to equate all types of old growth humus as the same as peat moss... The fact that the attempt to state that it is the same material based on a cursory examination is flawed from the start... then the attempt to claim that the microbes are the same without actual culture and differential diagnostics are again a highly flawed method..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> I have significant doubts about the accuracy of the comparision based on only on the methodology used but the attempt to equate all types of old growth humus as the same as peat moss... The fact that the attempt to state that it is the same material based on a cursory examination is flawed from the start... then the attempt to claim that the microbes are the same without actual culture and differential diagnostics are again a highly flawed method.....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I agree. I stated as such , but not in such an eloquent & scientific way.

So what say you Ed? (My original questions)
Is this something that should be incorporated into more vivs?
If so, would the product I showed be of merit or do you suggest a different product?
If neither, what would be the best way to gain its benefits or are we already do that by using soil & leaf litter?

(I was hoping that you would make an appearance btw ... as you are already aware, I value your insight).


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

drewman1962 said:


> HMMMM?? Interesting. I'm planning on using the great clay substrat in my very first viv. Which I'm putting the enclosure together now. Any ways, I have some cuttings taking root in root in some sphagnum moss. Wondering to myself...what if I top off around the plants with this humus stuff when I plant in my viv.


Good idea Drew. Im glad to see that you are still researching and gaining insight since we last met. I am also leaning towards clay substrates for all of my future vivs.


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## drewman1962 (Apr 16, 2012)

Unable to sleep. so read all night about this "forest humus". Let me give a disclaimer first...I'm new. After all of the reading, I have decided that my cuttings I had given to me are wrapped in moss. They are starting to get roots.I am going to now add this little pocket of moss into a small container with this humus around the moss. I have the plants in their own little greenhouse waiting to go in my first viv. I think this stuff would be a great addition for the plants. I am going with a clay substrat, this would be just around the plants planted in the clay. Lets see what happens.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

drewman1962 said:


> Unable to sleep. so read all night about this "forest humus". Let me give a disclaimer first...I'm new. After all of the reading, I have decided that my cuttings I had given to me are wrapped in moss. They are starting to get roots.I am going to now add this little pocket of moss into a small container with this humus around the moss. I have the plants in their own little greenhouse waiting to go in my first viv. I think this stuff would be a great addition for the plants. I am going with a clay substrat, this would be just around the plants planted in the clay. Lets see what happens.


You can use it for that, but I think the point the article was trying make was that the humus Is beneficial for arthropods, which assists in completing the nutrient cycle, which is of benefit to our vivariums ecosystem, helping to fill in part of the gap missing between captive frogs & frogs found in the wild.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I think it would be more revealing to read the back of the bag...hard to believe that the humus wouldn't have to be sterilized for sale to prevent spreading organisms to non native areas for those unknown "bugs." The texture or tilth of the "dirt"is a completely different story...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Gamble said:


> The only thing that would worry me is the product description:
> "An incredibly high diversity of microorganisms, with more than 35,000 species of *Bacteria* and over 5000 species of *Fungi*"
> 
> Also, I'm not so sure that an innoculant, while close, is not quite the same thing as humus. An innoculant would provide the fungi, but that's about it. Even the product I provided doesn't contain everything that "wild" humus would. The whole point of using humus, is to introduce the many different arthropods that our vivariums do not normally contain, to complete the same nutrient cycle in our vivariums that frogs in the wild are exposed to.


LOL. Beneficial bacteria and fungi are what keep our world operating, Mycorrhizal fungi, and soil dwelling bacteria of that type will NOT HARM YOUR FROGS.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Plus, if you keep up on your leaf litter additions, and add some other things like small twigs, madrone bark, other woody debis, etc.....you will be creating a type of humus in a short time period. It doesn't need to be "AINCIENT" it just needs to support beneficial fungi/bacteria that greatly increase the health of your plants and provide a thriving microclimate for microfauna production


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> Is this something that should be incorporated into more vivs?
> If so, would the product I showed be of merit or do you suggest a different product?
> If neither, what would be the best way to gain its benefits or are we already do that by using soil & leaf litter?
> 
> (I was hoping that you would make an appearance btw ... as you are already aware, I value your insight).


One of the things that is a major issue with the way we house frogs is the limited amount of nutrient cycling in the enclosures. Even with the addition of isopods and springtails we're still not enabling the frogs to behaviorally access a wide food source.. For example they are known to capture and consume millipedes... 

The down side is that there is a risk of introducing unwanted things ranging from things like centipedes to chytrid... The unwanted macro bugs can be removed by simply taking a batch of the humus and then placing it into a Berlese funnel and then hand sorting out the unwanted macrobugs.. with respect to microorganisms.. simply warming it up for several days to 95 F will kill the zoospores without causing much damage to the microorganisms.. Adding the microbes can be a good thing as not only can you introduce multiple strains of mycorhizzoidal fungi, but multiple strains of microbes that compete with each other *potentially* producing a more stable microbial enviroment. This sort of microbe (minus the mycorhizzoidal fungi) will eventually establish itself through the addition of leaf litter. 

With respect to some unwanted beasties, I have to admit that after several years, the small brown slugs I got from some bromeliads, have died out. And the snail population in that tank is in slow decline... Some of the other tanks still have a decent snail population and I do take action to remove them from those few enclosures. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

This post gave me a headache..so are you suggesting ...yes, or no.....for this particular product...???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The original article which Nick referred to was a weighing of reasons to potentially use humus collected locally.. Nick was using the article to suggest that a prebagged humus collected from Alaska was a potential option. Other than depending on where it originates in Alaska, it may be contaminated with some amphibian pathogens (since wood frogs are found in that area).. Hence the reply I gave above... I am not against the use of humus in enclosures and was simply outlining the best way to optimize success... I have not used it in my enclosures at home since I'm still trying different permutations of clay... However, I am for increasing the diversity of invertebrates available to the frogs since it encourages more natural foraging behaviors.... and may (stress may) increase froglet survivial in some of the more sensitive frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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