# American vs european style dart frog keeping



## emanuelkarl (Jul 16, 2020)

Hello!

I've been a member of this forum for only like a week or something but I've been keeping dart frogs for like a year. I started researching like 1,5-2 years ago and got my first darts a year ago (leucomelas Guyana banded) and I don't, and probably never will, have a quantity of frogs (rn just azureus and leucomelas Guyana banded). But I've been researching a lot and have a fairly good theoretical ground compared to my practical experience. I've been a member of the association SDS (svenska dendrobatidsällskapet/the swedish dendrobatid society) for more than a year and a member on their swedish forum pilgift.se since I first started researching dart frogs. I've literally read about half of the threads on that forum (1000-2000 probably) last summer when I was bored even if I skipped some that sounded uninteresting. I've also watched some Troy Goldberg, Dendrozone, Northern Frogger and TCS Dart frogs on youtube, read some books and I've gotten myself green fingers for the exotic plants in my vivariums during the last year. But when I joined this forum, since I had nothing left to read on other forums and was too lazy to invest in a dart frog book which I must in the future, I happened to find myself in a thread that surprised me. 

There are some notable differences between "american" and "european" dart frog keeping (not racist hehe, just calling the two methods by these names to tell them apart) that I was aware of since before. At the same time I know that many americans have started looking into the european style (like Troy Goldberg and many others), and I suppose many europeans have looked into the american style. I've always thought about both of these methods as good for the darts except the european (which not only europeans use of course, but I'll call them that anyways) is normally more beautiful and the american is normally cheaper, simpler and more practical. But here it seems like some people dislike the european style for numerous reasons, which I want to know more about.

So, I read a forum thread here that ended off topic as a discussion about american vs european keeping. The participants in the discussion (both americans and if I remember correctly a european keeper who agreed that some european enclosures has their cons) stated that the europeans came up with how to breed the frogs and so on, but then their care kinda stopped evolving. The europeans often use "euro vent" enclosures which seem to have become popular in America again (you can google it), however from my understanding that isn't the bad part itself but rather how some europeans have setup the vivarium. What was mentioned as bad things with the european setups are about water features (=saturated substrate and a drowning risk I think?), to much moss (=too high humidity) and no leaf litter so the frogs have their feet directly in the wet moss (=infections). 

I'll never leave the concept of huge display enclosures with loads of plants and so on, but I do neither use water features or use moss instead of leaf litter and so on and if it harms the frogs to have water features and so on have I'll keep it that way.

So in short: What things about the european keeping do (some of) you experienced americans dislike? Is it only the things I have mentioned (water features, too much moss and no leaf litter) or is it anything more? Do you have anything against the actual euro vent enclosures or just the way people hardscape and plant them? Feel free to write detailed with what the risks are, where you got the information (own experience, literature or whatever) and stuff!

This discussion has nothing to do with if you are from Europe or America, but only what enclosure style you prefer.

At least within SDS most people seem to use leaf litter, no water features and even though moss covered backgrounds are a thing in some peoples vivariums it's fairly uncommon and not replacing the leaf litter on the ground. I don't know how people do outside of this swedish association though.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I'm a european frog breeder and I personaly prefer the european styles glas tank with the passive ventiation etc..

When it comes to substrate and no water features, a lot of leaflitter,.. (your vision the American way) this is something I've switched too years aggo without knowing this was the standard in the US. And I can only recommend this way since it proven multiple times the best way.. 

For me, I was just trying to recreate the frogs habitat at good as I can with the use of common sense. I had no knowledge of the overseas hobbyist already doing the same long before and made it standard knowledge.

I think it was also me who said the european frog keepers stopper evolving.
I believe this has a lot to do with the 'marketing' aspect of the hobby. 

The European vivarium and frog suppliers are only focused on what buyers wants and what sells best in numbers. Which is a beautifull green paludarium with a nice stream of water that just shouts 'jungle' in the buyers minds. It's all about the 'esthetics'

This is the same reason YouTube influencers setup these kind of tanks, they simply get more viewers.

BUT.. Those 'European' setups are indeed not what the frogs require for care at all. Which in it's own way is again part of the businessmodel, leading to more sale of frogs.. since they die faster and have to be replaced..

Supplementation is also something that got left behind in Europe. Thank god Repashy and Ranarium are slowly getting their way into the European hobby. The result just don't lie. 🙂


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

emanuelkarl said:


> Hello!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First, let me say, this is a topic that interests me as well. I'm neither "European" nor "American" (I'm North American but not from the USA). 

For me the key principle of designing a vivarium is the animal that is going in it. I'm not aesthetically oriented , as in, making things look "pretty" isn't something I'm good at or drawn to doing. Making the vocation as FUNCTIONAL as possible is my goal. If they happens to coincide with a visually appealing design, that's a bonus. 

My tanks are usually quite minimal in comparison to most of the pictures you see on Instagram, for example. A few plants, lots of wood structure, seed pods, coco huts, lots of leaf litter , a fewfrogs. That's all.


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## emanuelkarl (Jul 16, 2020)

Think you. Could you point out the exact things to avoid in these jungle vivariums the market loves other than water features and skipping leaf litter?

What supplements were commonly used in Europe? I use repashy and will probably get a second one to vary it since I see many who does that. What do you recommend to switch between other than repashy calcium+? What were/is sold in Europe and what’s bad with it?


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