# Good Use of Expired Supplements



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I have about a full gallon of expired mixed Rep-Cal calcium and Herptivite and was wondering if it would be good as a substrate fortifier. If so, how often and how much should be added?

Rich


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Well Ed will weigh in of course but I would say yes. First, I'm unaware that straight calcium really degrades. At any rate, even if because chemically inert somehow, it's not like the calcium atoms would be gone and I'll bet that organisms in a living substrate would find a way to make that calcium available again. And all of the components of a multivitamin don't lose their potency at the same rate, and they don't necessary vanish completely regardless. Ed just posted on frognet about how carotenes can be pulsed into systems because surplus can be stored by organisms in their tissues for some time.


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Thanks Brent. Any idea of a good delivery system? Just mix into the substrate? Or maybe leave some 'piles' toward the top for uper level crawlers? Any amounts too large or small? I had been reading the 'Net mails but have to go back . Lot of reading there. Head hurts........good stuff.

Rich


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

For some time now, I've been just tossing the leftover dregs from dusting ff onto the substrate surface in my largest viv. This incldes vitamin and mineral powders, Naturose, and a custom blend of dehydrated and powdered carotene rich foods. My thought is to put it on the surface where the most invertebrate activity is so it gets incorporated into the vivarium food web. Plus, leaching will only serve to flush the stuff down into the substrate profile but not up. I try to limit the amount I toss in just because I'm sure there is probably a threshold for many of these substances where they would become an environmental toxin. But since I'm doing it blind and ignorant, I try to err on the conservative side.

BTW, I also toss in chunks of fruit, banana peels, etc. for the same reason. In a small viv it would just get gross. But in a large viv with plenty of floor space, it works pretty well.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

straight calcium carbonate doesn't really degrade unless the calcium gets caught up in some more insoluable salt or chelation.. 

The vitamins and amino acids are going to be fodder for the inverts, bacteria and fungi. I would be careful about adding too much at one shot in one locality as I suspect that it could encourage a massive growth of potentially pathnogenic bacteria (like Aeromonus hydrophilia) that are decomposers in the soil. If there is a good soil invert population, you should see them gathering at and feeding on the supplements (when I had a snail boom at work, they would actually graze on any spilled supplement for the calcium) which as long as you weren't overloading it, prevent the bacterial overgrowth problems. 

Ed


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

rich, do you ever use vitamin supplement additives in feeder insect media, like for RFB and mealworms? I wouldn't recommend it for fruit flies though, because too many herp vitamins seem to lower production.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are some studies on the use of supplementation in mealworms but it has its own issues due to the oxidation of fat soluable vitamins and needing constant conditions for it be the most effective....

As with ffs, changing the vitamin intakes can change the required nutrient profile of the feeder insect diet to prevent a lowered production. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

The tact I have taken for spiking ff media is to add supplements in more complex forms. For example, Naturose added to the media seems to work fine with no noticeable decrease in production. At least some of it winds up in the larvae as they have a pinkish hue but no idea how much it actually improves the nutritional content of the adults. Another supplement I sometimes add is the dehydrated fruit and vegetable powder I mentioned earlier. I have no evidence to know whether any of this helps but in my mind, it is an easy way to add variety to the ff diet and hopefully for the frogs as well.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, won't there be oxidation if you add it to a soil mix? (not the calcium though).

Brent, 

I have had very good results using carrot powder in fruit fly cultures. You can order it from barryfarm.com. I do not know though if the vitamins (specifically beta carotene) become damaged from the drying process.

http://www.barryfarm.com/veggies.htm


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Geez, that's alot of expired supplement :shock: 

FWIW, when I do naturose suppelments (about once a week) I mix 1/8t of calcium w d3, 1/8t vitamin, 1/8 naturose...when I'm done feeding, I sprinkle the leftovers on my white woodlice culures, and the way they react, it looks like their favorite food...

If you don't have naturose, I would imagine you could substitute spirulina...still, it'd take forever to use a gallon.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Ed, won't there be oxidation if you add it to a soil mix? (not the calcium though).


Yes but it will not be a major portion of the sole food supply (as would be the case with the meal worms or the flour beetles). The invertebrates would consume some but the rest would rapidly be colonized by bacteria and fungi, and rinsed into the soil by misting/rain systems. Its a matter of proportion and direct exposure time. 

Ed


----------



## npaull (May 8, 2005)

How much calcium would have to be added to a soil before it became phytotoxic?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brent or Matt or one of the soil gurus may have a better handle on it but as I understand it, the phytotoxicty maybe more a function of the resulting pH as this changes the availability of different minerals and nutrients. 

Ed


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> Brent or Matt or one of the soil gurus may have a better handle on it but as I understand it, the phytotoxicty maybe more a function of the resulting pH as this changes the availability of different minerals and nutrients.
> 
> Ed


I'm pretty sure that's right Ed. Given that many (most?), ecosystems are built from limestone (calcium carbonate) parent material, I'm not aware of any issues with too much calcium in plant soils. Although I think their may be a relationship between calcium and iron availabilty but can't remember. But the relationship between calcium and pH is well known. In the substrates I've been making, I have not tested the pH to know how much calcium can be added before you are pushing it too far. But it is on the list of things to do. I tend not to grow many plants in my substrates as most of then are grown epiphytically. So it has been a low priority issue for me.


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Interesting discussion all.

Some observations I've made are that the supplements do 'kill off' plants they come in contact with in any larger amount than a simple light dusting. Put a pile next to the plant base/roots and most die off. I havent gone and figured out which are more sensitive than others though.

That said, snails and woodlice flock to the stuff. Especially little 'piles' once moist.

S


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

One thing I have learned is that unless you have tens of thousands of frogs to feed don't buy the jumbo gallon+ sized tubs of supps. :shock: :wink:  :shock:


----------



## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> One thing I have learned is that unless you have tens of thousands of frogs to feed don't buy the jumbo gallon+ sized tubs of supps. :shock: :wink:  :shock:


I'm pretty sure those are for zoos and pro lizard breeders with tons (literally, as in multiples of 2000lbs) of stuff to feed. I can't imagine how many FFs those buckets o' repcal would dust...


----------



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

As Shawn said , the snails flock to the little piles . So I am now using it also as snail bait. Expensive, expired snail bait. :shock:  :wink: :shock:


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> As Shawn said , the snails flock to the little piles . So I am now using it also as snail bait. Expensive, expired snail bait. :shock:  :wink: :shock:


funny you mentioned that. I too enjoy crushing the little buggers a couple hours after I make the little piles... :wink: 

Best,

S


----------



## ccc (Nov 22, 2006)

Shawn,

Are the woodlice eating the supplements? Have you tried feeding it to them as a staple diet?

ccc


----------



## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

ccc said:


> Shawn,
> 
> Are the woodlice eating the supplements? Have you tried feeding it to them as a staple diet?
> 
> ccc


I would think the supplements alone would not provide enough protein and carbohydrate to fullfill nutritional needs of the isopods. But I could be wrong.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Are the woodlice eating the supplements? Have you tried feeding it to them as a staple diet?


I believe Ed mentioned recently that the vitamin/minerals supplement could cause a real boom in potentially pathogenic bacteria, if memory serves. I don't think using supplements as staple diet would be particularly good.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Often inverts that have a high calcium need (like snails or isopods) will feed on the supplements in the enclosure (especially in calcium poor enclosures). 

If the supplements are dumped in a big lump and left to sit, then there is a good risk of a bacteria bloom at that site. This is less of a concern where there is a good movement of water down into the soil as it would dilute out the problem and diffuse it through the vivarium ( and I am not talking about a light dusting but a real pile (like a teaspoon or so). 

Ed


----------

