# Pumilio post-mortem



## aplatowski (May 6, 2004)

As I've posted in the past, I've been experiencing problems getting Man Creek froglets from the two-month post morph stage to adulthood.....ie: they all disappear and are presumed dead. I've watched at least half a dozen babies over the past year get fat and happy and then disappear, never to be seen again. Finally, in response to posts suggesting calcium deficiency, I mixed a potion of 30% calcium gluconate (23% stock) to water. Although the directions were to mix the stock to 50% water, I thought I would try it at a more diluted mixture to make sure nothing adverse happened.
I applied the spray to my two remaining froglets (approx 2 mo after morph) and they immediately stretched out, dead. There was no saving them.....what just happened? I mixed two parts RO/DI water to one part 23% solution and it killed them on the spot. Boy do I feel horrible.
Any ideas out there??????


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## nburns (May 3, 2005)

I have no idea. I remember reading that post a couple months ago so I purchased some of the solution myself. I mixed it 50/50 and put a drop or two on the back of my mancreek and imitator froglets. I have seen no ill effects from doing this. Good luck figuring out what is going on.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^^ they had a deficiency, the sudden stress of applying the spray directly to them could have killed them, i've seen this a fair number of times. Did you leave them alone for a while afterward in the same place? often they aren't actually dead and will come around after a period of time. Just don't go picking them up and fawning over them as it may actually kill them. Whenever a new frog of mine does the stretch out, seizure, dead "act" (it is not an act, sign of serious trouble) i leave them be, more often than not they come around and i go from there in treating them trying to minimize stress as much as possible. I apply 1 drop of straight 10% calcium gluconate to the back of ALL my thumb and pumilio froglets once a week and they all seem to do very well.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Rest assured the calcium gluconate did not kill them on the spot as you say. Also, use a dropper instead of a spray bottle.


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## aplatowski (May 6, 2004)

I hate to disagree but I watched as the frog immediately went belly up. There was a definite mortal reaction to the spray.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ yes, there was a reaction to the spray, but not the calcium gluconate. suddenly directly spraying a frog as opposed to just spraying a tank stressed the frog. one that already has a calcium/ion deficiency and is apt to seizures/death can go belly up. For instance, i got an adult pumilio not too long ago that wasn't doing to well, would not eat at all (and i knew it wasn't eating when i wasn't looking as well) but was still semi-active. i went to remove her from the temporary tank to put into a smaller quarantine for metronidazole, the moment my hand got near the frog it stretched out and had a seizure. this repeated every time i applied the medication for the next few days until finally the frog died unfortunately. 

What you should take away from this is that if you start supplementing froglets with calcium gluconate as soon as you find them you'll be golden. Suddenly stressing frogs that already have a deficiency may lead to what you experienced. So better to start early then later. If, regardless of our posts, you still refuse to use calcium gluconate in the future i would suggest you work on ways to dust springtails, it is possible but it definitely not as easy as supplementing with CG.


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## aplatowski (May 6, 2004)

Thanks for the explanation. Guess I was a bit upset at watching one of these special little frogs just die at my hand. I use a misting system on the tank....would it make any sense to add the calcium to the misting reservoir?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Adding calcium to the misting reservoir will likely just clog the nozzles. Use a dropper and drip it directly on to the back of newly morphed frogs once a week. Repeat this for the first 5 or 6 months.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I've used the calcium gluconate approach for pumilio every since Robb posted his approach on Frognet. I've had no mortality and great growth with my pumilio froglets and I pull them from the viv as soon as they morph out. One of the first things they receive after being transferred to their temporary home is a calcium gluconate drip bath and then I'm religious about applying every week. The little froglets aren't crazy about having liquid dripped on their backs but they do just fine.

I've also started using this approach for more delicate thumbnail tads like red vents and seen extra vigor as a result.

Bill


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Robb,

Could you detail this process or post a link to the frognet posting? What is the % of calcium gluconate? How often do you do it?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

To add to David's questions, where can you find it?


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## biocmp (Mar 7, 2006)

I would like to know as well


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I think this is the post...



> Lots of people have had similar problems with both the man creeks and
> chiriqui rivers. I attribute it to a calcium problem. I've been treating
> all mine with a solution of calcium gluconate (23% solution diluted 1/1 with
> r/o water) dripped on froglets twice a month. Since then haven't lost any
> ...


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

defaced said:


> To add to David's questions, where can you find it?


I bought mine at Vet Med Direct...

001-AGL258 $2.95 Calcium Gluconate 23%, 500 ml, injectable

it is normally used as a vehicle for injection into cattle and so on. If you live in a place where there are vets that treat farm animals (and for all I know cat/dog vets use it as well), you can try them. 

I dilute 1:1 with distilled water and use once weekly. The remaining calcium gluconate solution stays in the fridge to prevent bugs from growing in it. 

Bill


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

So could you dilute it with bottled water? What companies distill there water?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Jordan B said:



> So could you dilute it with bottled water? What companies distill there water?


Go to Walmart or anywhere that sells food, and buy Distilled water. It says right on the label. All the major water companies have it as far as I know.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Bottled water would be fine. I get my distilled and spring water from a chain grocery store.

BTW, here's a link to a man creek 2 months post morphing using a dime as a comparison. Probably not the world's greatest growth record for a pumilio but it's not doing too badly on this regimen...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/ ... 8_3828.jpg

I start my new pumilio froglets on smaller FFs such as wingless and Tiffany's Golden Delicious (silly name but nice small size) and really don't use springtails at all. So I get to supplement them from the beginning.

Bill


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

That's pretty big for 2 months out! Nice Job Bill.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

ive never used a calc gluc. drip and all my chriqui river and almirante froglets are doing great. ive got my second batch from each pair and they are both working on their 3rd. my 2nd batch of chiriqui pumilio were really small too.
i did have that happen w/ a pair of yellow basti`s though, well just the male. i eventually lost the male. he seized the 1st time i introduced him to the tank and every time i sprayed the tank. i just found him dead one day, half decomposed, so no necropsy could be performed. the female never showed any signs of illness and is still doing quite well.


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## dragonfrog (Feb 16, 2006)

If any frog, not just Pumilio, were having problems with calcium deficiency, i.e., seizures, would it not be a good idea to use this solution?


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> ive never used a calc gluc. drip and all my chriqui river and almirante froglets are doing great. ive got my second batch from each pair and they are both working on their 3rd. my 2nd batch of chiriqui pumilio were really small too.
> i did have that happen w/ a pair of yellow basti`s though, well just the male. i eventually lost the male. he seized the 1st time i introduced him to the tank and every time i sprayed the tank. i just found him dead one day, half decomposed, so no necropsy could be performed. the female never showed any signs of illness and is still doing quite well.


Aaron,

I look upon this as a preventative option as opposed to something mandatory, particularly since I've decided to pull froglets from the viv fairly soon after morphing. I suspect that part of pumilio froglet hardiness is tied up in parental nutrition and care. For one pair of man creeks, the first several froglets that they morphed out were pretty puny and while not showing the classic signs of SLS, clearly had some motor coordination issues and I allowed nature to take its course. The second wave (or at least I like to think of it that way) were all fine and they popped out 5 froglets in the span of roughly 4-5 weeks. The third wave looks good so far although I haven't been able to catch any of the little devils so I guess my pulling from the tank may go by the wayside for them.

One of the most interesting aspects of this hobby is that different approaches can work for hobbyists and the sharing and comparing of information can in time help define best practice(s) or at least places to start from given certain situations.

Bill


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

i have seen the same w/ some vittatus that i recieved but it went away after they got into their tanks. i never witnessed it again in my vittatus or any of the offspring. i did see it w/ all the zaparo i brought in from europe years ago and they all died. i remember a thread on frognet about calc gluc when i mentioned it but by then it was too late.
are you using calc w/ d3 supplement and supplementing every feeding(the parents)? i only ask because i have seen this in other people`s frogs but have never witnessed it w/ any of my captive offspring at all and have never been able to pinpoint a cause. i agree that we should use what works but we should also do all we can to alleviate the problem. is it possible that the calc phospherous ratio was just off because of no d3 for uptake? do you mix your supplements or do 1 every other feeding?there is obviously a common reason for this happening or multiple reasons.
sorry if it`s a stupid question, you obviously know what your doing, just trying to find the cause since i have seen it in other collections and frogs i have recieved. i dont mean to be offensive or talk down to anyone. just trying to find answers.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

btw i pull all my pumilio as soon as i see them on a leaf. my parent pums are too fat for me to heavily feed the offspring w/out the parents getting overfed.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Hey Aaron,

Good questions. I supplement with 1:1 RepCal:Herptivite daily so I doubt that a calcium deficiency was the issue. I mix the two supplements together in small amounts to avoid issues with vitamin oxidation. So while it’s possible there was a deficiency, it would not be due to insufficient supplementation.

The only other variable involved with this particular Man Creek pair is that I wasn’t aware they were raising tads until relatively late in the tadpoles’ development and I was not so diligent about keeping the broms filled with water. I don’t get carried away with trying to flush the brom funnels with water to remove waste (I’ve seen good froglets morph out of some pretty awful looking brom pools) but I do like to keep the water at a decent level. So perhaps low water levels in the broms may have been the culprit.

I speculate on parental nutrition and/or parental care as possibilities because of what I’ve seen in with a couple of young breeding pairs of thumbnails where their first offspring (raised either by themselves or by me) were less than adequate only to have things shape up with time. Since I didn’t change their diet or viv, my conclusion is that time and practice (maybe even mine on the tad rearing side  ) led to better outcomes.

Bill


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

repcal has calcium w/ or w/out d3 for the calcium uptake. i was just stating that, w/out sunlight, calcium w/out d3 is almost useless unless there is sufficient d3 in the vitamin powder.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I use the Rep-Cal with Vitamin D3 (phosphorous free) so I should be okay vis-a-vis vitamin D.

Bill


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Another possible cause is lack of vitamin A as this would have to be maternally supplied to the tadpoles via the eggs... Some anurans appear to have issues converting carotenoids to vitamin A in sufficient quantities to meet thier metabolic needs. In some of the species studied, this begins to appear around 2 months of age and has usually reached 100% by one year of age. 
Ed


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Ed said:


> Another possible cause is lack of vitamin A as this would have to be maternally supplied to the tadpoles via the eggs... Some anurans appear to have issues converting carotenoids to vitamin A in sufficient quantities to meet thier metabolic needs. In some of the species studied, this begins to appear around 2 months of age and has usually reached 100% by one year of age.
> Ed


Ed, could you clarify that last sentance? What begins to appear, etc.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

hypovitaminosis of A 


Ed


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Would it be possible to just add a good deal of calcium to the springtail diet (Sterilized crushed eggshells etc...) and feed well with these? Or add to the leaf litter? Use the gut-loading concept in general...


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