# R. Variabilis tadpole mortality issues



## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

Hi all -

I have a trio of R. Variabilis that are producing clutches every couple of weeks. Some of the clutches aren't viable, but of those that are I'm having a hard time keeping the tadpoles alive. Maybe someone can give me some ideas about what I'm doing wrong. I've got 2 more tadpoles about to hatch and a new clutch that's still in the viv that I'd really like to keep alive this time.

Here's my current process:


Let eggs mature in the film canister in the vivarium for at least a week to confirm viability
Move maturing eggs to a petri dish with a little water 
As tadpoles hatch, move to their own half-full petri dish with a small piece of java moss 
Feed with 1 pellet of Josh's Frogs tadpole food within a day

So far most tads haven't survive more than 1-2 days. The first viable clutch lasted 3. 

A few notes:


The frogs themselves are very healthy and active. There is one female and two males.
The frogs are just over a year old I believe.
Temperatures range from 70-75 during the day to mid-60s at night.
Water is Portland, OR tap water, which has served me well in my vivariums and is generally considered pretty good. I'll try filtered water with the next tads.

In addition to the care sheet here on Dendroboard, I also found this article:

Frog Forum - Raising Thumbnail Dartfrog Tadpoles (Ranitomeya)

I thought I was basically following the instructions from both locations, but it's just not working out so far. 

Does anyone have any tips to share? Am I missing anything obvious? Is it the water? Do they need direct light or anything? Thanks in advance for any assistance.


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## LobCityLA (Nov 5, 2014)

I have the same species a 3.1 and they're producing a lot often and they grow up healthy little froglets. 
From the sounds of it you do the exact same except for the tap water. Unless your tap water is clean rainforest collected rain, it's going to have minerals and chemicals that will wreak havoc to tiny little sensitive amphibian skin. Ranitomeyas deposit tadpoles high up the canopy in bromeliads that get clean rain water. I haven't ever used moss or any other additive for my tads and just this season I've raised 15 froglets and over 30 tadpoles with very little mortality rate.


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

LobCityLA said:


> I have the same species a 3.1 and they're producing a lot often and they grow up healthy little froglets.
> From the sounds of it you do the exact same except for the tap water. Unless your tap water is clean rainforest collected rain, it's going to have minerals and chemicals that will wreak havoc to tiny little sensitive amphibian skin. Ranitomeyas deposit tadpoles high up the canopy in bromeliads that get clean rain water. I haven't ever used moss or any other additive for my tads and just this season I've raised 15 froglets and over 30 tadpoles with very little mortality rate.


Thank you for your input! I'll try different water ASAP. Portland water has no fluoride, but I believe it is mildly chlorinated at some point. It's light enough that you can't taste it anyway. Regardless, I have no problem getting quality distilled or RO water. I'll get some tomorrow and use that.


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## AzJohn (Aug 31, 2016)

I was going to tell you how to make tadpole tea but this is easier.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/20854-tadpole-care.html


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

AzJohn said:


> I was going to tell you how to make tadpole tea but this is easier.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/20854-tadpole-care.html


Thanks for the link! Based on my other reading, I'm not sure the tea is necessary for R. variabilis, but there are a couple other useful notes there that I will take under consideration.


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## saltyfish (Oct 31, 2016)

Use filtered water and make sure your frogs are being supplemented correctly. I feel it's also important to note that tadpoles especially the young ones play dead. Make sure they are in fact dead before you discard them. 
I also like to leave my tads in the petri dish for a day or so before I transfer them to the water. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

saltyfish said:


> ...make sure your frogs are being supplemented correctly.


My money is on this. How are you supplementing your adult frogs? This sort of thing usually comes down to a Vitamin A deficiency for me. Whenever I get new frogs, I start rotating in Repashy Vitamin A every 3 or 4 weeks. I dust with Repashy Calcium Plus with every feeding. Make sure your supplements are not expired, have been refrigerated all the time since opening, and, even if refrigerated, are replaced every 6 months. If you are already doing all of this, then I would start to look at tadpole husbandry, but my tadpoles are not at all picky about how they are kept as long as the adults are properly supplemented. Finally, if this is the first few clutches the pair have ever produced, this sort of thing is perfectly normal, even if the frogs are properly supplemented. Takes a few clutches (has been as many as 7 or 8 for my frogs before) to get things figured out.

Best of luck,

Mark


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

Encyclia said:


> My money is on this. How are you supplementing your adult frogs? This sort of thing usually comes down to a Vitamin A deficiency for me. Whenever I get new frogs, I start rotating in Repashy Vitamin A every 3 or 4 weeks. I dust with Repashy Calcium Plus with every feeding. Make sure your supplements are not expired, have been refrigerated all the time since opening, and, even if refrigerated, are replaced every 6 months. If you are already doing all of this, then I would start to look at tadpole husbandry, but my tadpoles are not at all picky about how they are kept as long as the adults are properly supplemented. Finally, if this is the first few clutches the pair have ever produced, this sort of thing is perfectly normal, even if the frogs are properly supplemented. Takes a few clutches (has been as many as 7 or 8 for my frogs before) to get things figured out.
> 
> Best of luck,
> 
> Mark


I'm using Repashy Calcium Plus at every feeding. It's almost 6 months old though so I'll get a new bottle. Should I use additional Vitamin A supplementation? I'll go ahead and order some of that too.

These have been the first 5 clutches from these young frogs, so possibly that's part of it too.

I've switched to filtered distilled water to rule that out. I have 2 tads about to hatch and another clutch still developing in the vivarium.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Yes, I would rotate the Vitamin A in about every 3 to 4 weeks. Breeding can deplete Vitamin A reserves quickly. If you are closing in on 6 mos. for the Calcium Plus, I would replace it. After hearing about your history of clutches with this group, though, you are in pretty good shape for this early in their breeding lives. As I said, it has been sometimes 7 or 8 clutches before I have gotten a single fertile egg before (Mint Terribs...). So, you are doing better than you might think 

Mark


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

Encyclia said:


> Yes, I would rotate the Vitamin A in about every 3 to 4 weeks. Breeding can deplete Vitamin A reserves quickly. If you are closing in on 6 mos. for the Calcium Plus, I would replace it. After hearing about your history of clutches with this group, though, you are in pretty good shape for this early in their breeding lives. As I said, it has been sometimes 7 or 8 clutches before I have gotten a single fertile egg before (Mint Terribs...). So, you are doing better than you might think


Thanks Mark! I've ordered Vitamin A and a new bottle of Calcium Plus. I'll start them on it as soon as they arrive. 

It's heartening to hear that my clutch history seems otherwise normal. 2 of the first 5 clutches have been infertile, and not every egg in the good clutches have been successful, but these little guys are just breeding like crazy!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

How do you store your unused vitamins? If you are not keeping it dark, airtight, and refridgerated, then it is degrading faster than it should.

5 months old and in the fridge? Still good.
5 months old and in your humid, warm frog room? Maybe not so good.

I agree with Mark. I don't think it's your water. Supplement as best you can, which would include rotating in some Repashy Vitamin A Plus into your schedule, exactly as noted on the bag. When you are sure they are supplemented properly, just give them a little time.

Pellet foods? Really? Utter trash. This is not feedback. I don't care what brand it is. Pellet foods suck. ALL pellet foods suck. Read the ingredients. Our tads want protein. If they didn't need protein, and lots of it, why are they so cannibalistic? You start reading some ingredients labels, and you will soon find that EVERY pellet food currently on the market, or that's ever been on the market, uses questionable ingredients. Look for real protein ingredients. You want to see, "fish", in the ingredients, NOT "fish meal" or "fish byproducts". Once you see "wheat", "fillers", "byproducts", "meal", or anything like that, stop reading. Anything else listed is in minute quantities. Now pick up some Omega One fish flakes. Start reading.
If you do this, I promise you will see the difference. I promise you will be disgusted with the crap that is in ALL pellet feeds. One other thing. It's not only the crap they put in it. It is also about processing. Pellet foods take higher temperatures to form the pellet. Higher temperatures degrade all the ingredients.
Find a brand, *any* brand, that offers the *same product* in both flake form, and in pellet form. Read the ingredients. They should be the same, or very similar, yes? No. They are not. Every brand I've ever checked, the pellet has crappier ingredients, less protein, less oils, and more filler and meals. How can they even call it the same thing?

If you sell within this hobby, you owe us better! Quit carrying this crap!

Frickin pellets and the people that slap their names on them...that's my rant for the day.


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> How do you store your unused vitamins? If you are not keeping it dark, airtight, and refridgerated, then it is degrading faster than it should.
> 
> 5 months old and in the fridge? Still good.
> 5 months old and in your humid, warm frog room? Maybe not so good.
> ...


I keep the supplements dark and airtight, but not refrigerated. They're not in a warm or humid area though. I'll keep them refrigerated going forward. 

What tadpole food do you recommend, if you recommend any? Right now I have Sera Micron Growth Food and the Josh's Frogs pellets. I'm open to any and all suggestions.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

That, Doug, is a quality rant ;-) Seriously, though, I really appreciate you sharing the info. I really hadn't paid that much attention. I will be switching over to some Omega One flakes! Any other brands you are aware of that are also higher quality?

Thanks again,

Mark



Pumilo said:


> How do you store your unused vitamins? If you are not keeping it dark, airtight, and refridgerated, then it is degrading faster than it should.
> 
> 5 months old and in the fridge? Still good.
> 5 months old and in your humid, warm frog room? Maybe not so good.
> ...


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## saltyfish (Oct 31, 2016)

I spoke with a vary reputable breeder a little while back and he recommended salmon roe or similar. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

LobCityLA said:


> .
> From the sounds of it you do the exact same except for the tap water. Unless your tap water is clean rainforest collected rain, it's going to have minerals and chemicals that will wreak havoc to tiny little sensitive amphibian skin. ain water. I haven't ever used moss or any other additive for my tads and just this season I've raised 15 froglets and over 30 tadpoles with very little mortality rRanitomeyas deposit tadpoles high up the canopy in bromeliads that get clean rate.


Bunk... I really wish people would understand the water chemistry stuff and its importance for the tadpoles before parroting bad information. Unless your tap water is really really bad then it shouldn't be the tap water unless you aren't neutralizing the chloramines. If the OP's tapwater was that bad then the eggs wouldn't develop or hatch... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

saltyfish said:


> I spoke with a vary reputable breeder a little while back and he recommended salmon roe or similar.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


A little exotic maybe but a good quality flake food as Doug pointed out is all you need in this respect. 

some comments 

Ed


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

Ed said:


> A little exotic maybe but a good quality flake food as Doug pointed out is all you need in this respect.


Good to hear. I just ordered some Omega One flakes. I'll try those supplemented with the Sera Micron Growth Food and see how it goes.
Thanks!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sera Micron is better than some, but doesn't come anywhere close to Omega One.
Omega One Freshwater flake ingredients. I only read until I reach the fillers. I'm not saying lesser ingredients don't matter, but I promise you, if they can't get the first part right, they cheaped out on the rest, too.

Ok, Omega One: Whole Salmon, Halibut, Black Cod, Whole Herring , Whole Shrimp, Whole Krill, Wheat Flour.
Hey! That sounds like a meal! I would eat almost any ingredient listed so far.

Sera Micron: spirulina (50%), krill (16%), fish meal, shrimps, wheat flour. Anybody's mouth watering after reading Sera ingredients? Then why use it? Sera Micron is incredibly Old School. The only reason it worked well "back in the day", is because at least it had SOME protein, while the rest of the hobby was feeding nothing but Spirulina and maybe some Chlorella and Klamath Lake blue-green algae. Some protein is certainly better than none. 
If, however, you have Omega One, and you alternate with Sera Micron, all you are doing is diluting one very nice feed, with an inferior feed that's overpriced.

Ocean Nutrition used to be the best food on the market, with Omega One being a close second. A number of years back, Ocean Nutrition changed EVERYTHING. They took out everything good, like all the whole fish fillets they used, and switched to all meals, fillers, and other CRAP. They still charge you top dollar.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no other manufacturer that comes anywhere close to Omega One.


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sera Micron is better than some, but doesn't come anywhere close to Omega One.
> Omega One Freshwater flake ingredients. I only read until I reach the fillers. I'm not saying lesser ingredients don't matter, but I promise you, if they can't get the first part right, they cheaped out on the rest, too.
> 
> Ok, Omega One: Whole Salmon, Halibut, Black Cod, Whole Herring , Whole Shrimp, Whole Krill, Wheat Flour.
> ...



This is awesome information and clears up a number of questions I had in the back of my head while I was doing research. 

It's surprisingly difficult to find a real solid answer regarding which food is most healthful for tadpoles and why. Let alone why some people use one supplement or other with whichever food they choose.

I'll skip the Sera Micron and just use the Omega One flakes. I really appreciate your insight. Your post is exactly what I was hoping to find (and couldn't) in the various tadpole care guides.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

Honestly it sounds like the issue is with the adults; vitamins or lack thereof. Environmental factors would likely manifest before your eggs hatched if you are keeping them in the same conditions as the tadpoles. I also doubt it's the tadpole's food if they're dying quickly in 1-3 days.

I supplement my 1.1 variabilis southern pair with Repashy Calcium Plus and that's it. I don't use vitamin A supplements as they haven't been necessary for me.

IMO you should get new supplements and stop them breeding for a little. Let them rest and replenish vitamins. Too much breeding can put stress on frogs.

In my experience variabilis are VERY prolific and I've been overrun by tadpoles from my single pair. Give them time. They'll get it right.


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

FrogTim said:


> IMO you should get new supplements and stop them breeding for a little. Let them rest and replenish vitamins. Too much breeding can put stress on frogs.


What's the best way to do this? Just separate them?


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

FrogTim said:


> I supplement my 1.1 variabilis southern pair with Repashy Calcium Plus and that's it. I don't use vitamin A supplements as they haven't been necessary for me.




blb, please don't follow this advice. Get yourself some Repashy Vitamin A as Doug recommended.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

blb said:


> What's the best way to do this? Just separate them?


You can slow them down by providing them with a 'dry season' which means reduced misting and feeding. They'll slow down/stop breeding all together. Do this for 2-3 months. You cannot reduce misting so much that your humidity drops down below 60%. Just try to keep it a bit less wet than you normally do and feed them reduced amounts 2 times per week instead of 3-4.


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

erikm said:


> blb, please don't follow this advice. Get yourself some Repashy Vitamin A as Doug recommended.


I absolutely won't follow that advice.  I've got new Calcium Plus and Vitamin A arriving tomorrow.


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

erikm said:


> You can slow them down by providing them with a 'dry season' which means reduced misting and feeding. They'll slow down/stop breeding all together. Do this for 2-3 months. You cannot reduce misting so much that your humidity drops down below 60%. Just try to keep it a bit less wet than you normally do and feed them reduced amounts 2 times per week instead of 3-4.


This is great info. Thank you. I'll do that starting now and give them a breather. They've been producing constantly for a few months now so they probably deserve a break.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

blb said:


> This is great info. Thank you. I'll do that starting now and give them a breather. They've been producing constantly for a few months now so they probably deserve a break.


Yep no problem. It doesn't take a whole lot of change to make this happen. I dial back my mist timings by a few seconds for each time it sprays daily. You can also remove any film canisters or containers that hold water. They won't stop immediately but over a few weeks. Then once you get back to regular misting/feeding they will take a few weeks or even longer to get back into laying again.


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## dmb5245 (Feb 7, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> I don't care what brand it is. Pellet foods suck. ALL pellet foods suck.


Well this is a bummer. I thought I was doing good.
https://www.amazon.com/Omega-One-Shrimp-Sinking-Pellets/dp/B0043T92B2

At least my isos seem to like it!


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## tongo (Jul 29, 2007)

I'm in Portland, hit me up if you need help. Send me a pm and we can talk. I've raised hundreds of tadpoles!


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## blb (Oct 9, 2010)

tongo said:


> I'm in Portland, hit me up if you need help. Send me a pm and we can talk. I've raised hundreds of tadpoles!


Hey! I bought these frogs from you! They're great! I think I lost your phone number. I'll PM you tomorrow. Thanks for replying!


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

blb said:


> erikm said:
> 
> 
> > blb, please don't follow this advice. Get yourself some Repashy Vitamin A as Doug recommended.
> ...


Sorry I was unclear. Wasn't recommending you DON'T use vitamin A. Just saying it isn't necessary for MY frogs since I notice no deficiencies and Repashy Calcium Plus has plenty vitamin A for healthy frogs with no deficiencies. Just adding to the Possibly your bottle was compromised or old. By all means if you have deficincies use the additional A.

As for slowing breeding, if you can't seperate them reduce egg laying sites by removing petri dishes and minimizing film canisters that hold water. I do this by angling them upside down or removing them. There is lots of good advice in the previous posts.


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## erikm (Oct 1, 2015)

FrogTim said:


> Sorry I was unclear. Wasn't recommending you DON'T use vitamin A. Just saying it isn't necessary for MY frogs since I notice no deficiencies and Repashy Calcium Plus has plenty vitamin A for healthy frogs with no deficiencies. Just adding to the Possibly your bottle was compromised or old. By all means if you have deficincies use the additional A.


I am pretty sure that is incorrect. Repashy Calcium Plus does have Vitamin A in it, but it is not enough for breeding adults. Ed has probably posted about this many, many times.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

erikm said:


> I am pretty sure that is incorrect. Repashy Calcium Plus does have Vitamin A in it, but it is not enough for breeding adults. Ed has probably posted about this many, many times.


I'm not trying to discredit anyone or sway the OP from using Vitamin A if his frogs are deficient. What I am saying, is that I use Repashy Calcium Plus only* and my frogs are just fine. I can't speak for other species but my auratus and southern variabilis are producing healthy clutches, tadpoles and froglets.

My own pair of southern variabilis has been breeding since December 2016. Aside from their first clutch (13 eggs ~50%bad) I've had no problems. They produce a 5-8egg clutch about 2-3x a month and I let the eggs hatch in the tank and then pull the tads. I only lose a tadpole every other month or so, never have lost a froglet and never had any signs of SLS. "very prolific" is an understatement. I have to give them breaks every few months otherwise I am overrun in tadpoles. I've even gotten a surprise in-tank froglet.

Many members here use a supplement regimen of ONLY Repashy Calcium Plus (stored properly and kept 6mo or less) with great success. I still believe incorrect vitamin storage or old/contaminated products are to blame for a lot of cases of deficiency.

Sorry OP for the thread derailment. Just giving my first hand experiences with the frogs and vitamins in question to back my previous statements. 

*Post Edit: I do use Repashy SuperPig bi weekly to once a month since I was given the bottle for free. I'm pretty sure it doesn't contain any A or vitamins that would make a difference vs using only Repashy Calcium Plus.


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## AuroraK (Mar 29, 2017)

saltyfish said:


> Use filtered water and make sure your frogs are being supplemented correctly. I feel it's also important to note that tadpoles especially the young ones play dead. Make sure they are in fact dead before you discard them.
> I also like to leave my tads in the petri dish for a day or so before I transfer them to the water.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk




This just happened to me! I moved one from a canister and thought for sure I had killed it, as it wasn't moving at all and even was on it's back briefly. Thank goodness I decided to wait and see.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FrogTim said:


> I'm not trying to discredit anyone or sway the OP from using Vitamin A if his frogs are deficient. What I am saying, is that I use Repashy Calcium Plus only* and my frogs are just fine. I can't speak for other species but my auratus and southern variabilis are producing healthy clutches, tadpoles and froglets.


On an reported anecdotal basis using just the Repashy Cal plus did not correct the issues with eggs and tadpoles even after a three month period of use (remember anecdotal reporting). Adding the additional vitamin A supplement on a 1-4 times/month usage corrected the issue and if the person then went to using only the Repashy Calcium plus, no further issues with egg development were reported. Now this does not mean that the frogs are receiving sufficient vitamin A to prevent deficiency, it just means that no overt signs are being seen. To fully evaluate this, one would have to take a group of frogs (large sample size) and then scale the vitamin A supplementation and then necropsy the frogs, to look for more subtle signs like squamous metaplasia and/or whole body vitamin A content. Obviously this is going to be expensive so don't expect to see it done anytime in the future. 

I strongly suspect that the reason it doesn't correct the deficiencies is because the frogs are so deficient and the continued demand for provisioning the yolks is so high that it isn't sufficient to meet the needs of the frogs. This is why people suggest using the additional vitamin A as it may be needed to get the frogs over the hump. Now you could skip the additional vitamin A, if you shut down reproduction to allow the frogs to sequester what they need but it could take months for them to accomplish that task. Now it is also possible that the Calcium plus by itself would be sufficient if people used it for a period of time longer than 3-4 months as vitamin A can be stored but given that there is a shorter method to solve the problem..... 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FrogTim said:


> As for slowing breeding, if you can't seperate them reduce egg laying sites by removing petri dishes and minimizing film canisters that hold water. I do this by angling them upside down or removing them. There is lots of good advice in the previous posts.


Increase ventilation and decrease humidity.... removing the deposition sites and separating the frogs isn't the best way to go about this as the frogs can still yolk up and if the period of time is too long, the body could form adhesions to the egg mass preventing it from passing or causing egg yolk peritonitus. 

In the wild, breeding season is determined by humidity and rainfall ...

some comments 

Ed


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## EthanA (Feb 10, 2013)

Pumilo said:


> Ok, Omega One: Whole Salmon, Halibut, Black Cod, Whole Herring , Whole Shrimp, Whole Krill, Wheat Flour.
> Hey! That sounds like a meal! I would eat almost any ingredient listed so far.
> 
> Sera Micron: spirulina (50%), krill (16%), fish meal, shrimps, wheat flour.


I'm wondering if anyone can elaborate on this, but dried spirulina is between 51 and 71% protein, containing all essential amino acids, B vitamins (excluding B12) and other vitamins (C, K, E), minerals (especially iron and manganese), and various saturated and polyunsaturated fats. 
I'm not sure spirulina or Sera Micron should so easily be discredited as a poor source of protein and nutrition. 
Didn't your mom tell you to eat your greens? 

Some thoughts,
Ethan


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