# Tesoros de Colombia bad news



## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Hi guys, here's a message from the tesoros de colombia team :

"Dear all, as you know Tesoros de Colombia was created to find a way to protect some of Colombia's great biodiversity through biocommerce and habitat conservation. 
Through the last 9 years we have struggled trying to get all the permits needed to export several species of frogs and butterflies; this has happened due to a national law that was never intended to cover such a project and many aspects of this activity are not clear for the decision makers of the government. 
The environmental regulations in Colombia for wildlife farming are the same ones that affect oil and mining activities, as you can imagine we haven't had enough money like them to deal with this and our debts are always increasing.
Now we face another delay on getting permits as the law changed and we are no longer controlled by a local authority but by a new national authority that of course was not familiar in dealing with this acitivity and have just asked us to change our environmental management plan and make a complex one that meets the same environmental objectives that oil and mining companies have. We are already working on this.
At the moment we haven't receive our export quotas for 2015 and we are still waiting for our license modification that will let us export Oophaga lehmanni, histrionica and Phyllobates bicolor.
They say we should have patience as they have to get familiar with this project receive getting more information and the permit and quotas will be granted. We can only believe in them.
Meanwhile as we don't have any income we need again the help from all our friends and supporters that believe in what we are doing and share our passion and responsibility for doing active conservation of our spectacular species.
Thanks in advance,
The Tesoros Team"


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Fund raiser time. Can we start an auction thread or something?


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## Igofastr (Jan 16, 2015)

How about selling futures contracts? Crowd funding, or just pre-selling animals at a discount with the intention that those orders will be the first to be filled once production/shipping starts?

All is not lost, maybe some creativity is in order.

good luck!

Ron


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Fund raiser time. Can we start an auction thread or something?


I'll bring it up to the Mods/Admin team.


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## FwoGiZ (Jul 8, 2008)

Keep it up guys..
I am sure the frog hobby will help you!

By the way, those orange black foot terribilis ARE AWESOME!!!! 
THANK YOU SO MUCH! we want more!!!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I'd reopen the indiegogo if possible too.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I have to admit I let this slip through the cracks.
The Tesoros team is not giving up..either am I.
My donation is in


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

We try and do fundraiser at every frog meet for a different organization that is beneficial to the hobby I know is not much but every little bit helps.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Igofastr said:


> How about selling futures contracts? Crowd funding, or just pre-selling animals at a discount with the intention that those orders will be the first to be filled once production/shipping starts?
> 
> All is not lost, maybe some creativity is in order.
> 
> ...


Yeah, like, I think you could do a lehmanni/histrionica pre-order and sure this would raise a GOOD amount of money. You could also make it so that the first release of those frogs is "exclusive", so that the first froggers to get them are way ahead of the rest of the crowd who didn't pre-order.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I thought they already were?

Edit: @ lehmanni pre orders




hypostatic said:


> Yeah, like, I think you could do a lehmanni/histrionica pre-order and sure this would raise a GOOD amount of money. You could also make it so that the first release of those frogs is "exclusive", so that the first froggers to get them are way ahead of the rest of the crowd who didn't pre-order.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

They are? Where do people get in on this action? I wasn't aware of it.

And yeah, I guess also do pre-orders for the histos and anything else they haven't released.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Support the American Frog Day event happening this Saturday and you will be directly supporting Tesoros de Colombia. 50% of all proceeds raise during the event will go directly to Tesoros!

https://www.facebook.com/FrogDay


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Everybody's all fired up for the obligates, but I can't wait for the bicolors. Maybe we could do the auctions in the marketplace and have the funds sent directly to Tesoros ( like we did for Bill). I could definitely do a couple of nice plant packages.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Everybody's all fired up for the obligates, but I can't wait for the bicolors.











Yes please


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Everybody's all fired up for the obligates, but I can't wait for the bicolors. Maybe we could do the auctions in the marketplace and have the funds sent directly to Tesoros ( like we did for Bill). I could definitely do a couple of nice plant packages.


Oh, yes, do a pre-order on those too lol


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

When I went to colombia last december to visit Ivan Lozano, we had a meeting with the colombian environmental ministry. At the end of this meeting they agree to grant the Oophaga licence. Since then, they keep asking for new papers, autorization... And every time that Ivan give what is requiered, they ask for a new thing... Ivan is really tired about that and now he cannot even export its classic frogs because of the 2015 quota that is in hold. 
Because of that, I'm not sure that pre sales are a good idea. People will buy a pair of lehmanni today and maybe they will never receive it ot receive it next year.
I don't know what's happening out there but I'm pretty sure that the governement or some local regulation wants to get some money from tesoros.
About the fundraising campaign, I have one ready to be launched since january, I was waiting for the Oophaga licence to put it online. Tesoros was planning to build a 2nd facility, dedicated to Oophaga breeding in order to be able to provide more Histrionicas and Lehmannis and reduce the selling prices.
Maybe I'll launch it this week but modifying the goal from "help tesoros to build a new facility" to "help tesoros to face the shitty colombian governement".


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Can someone explain to me why you would just send money to Tesoros de Colombia? Is it the promise of new frogs for export or are they doing conservation work that is worthy of charity? If it is the former, pre-orders make perfect sense. Anything else, I think would make no sense. 

Let's say you want two lehmanni and they are $750 each. Perhaps $750 could be sent thru a distributor here in the U.S. If the frogs don't come thru, you're out $750. If they do come thru, you pay $750 after they are landed here at the distributor.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

oophagraal said:


> When I went to colombia last december to visit Ivan Lozano, we had a meeting with the colombian environmental ministry. At the end of this meeting they agree to grant the Oophaga licence. Since then, they keep asking for new papers, autorization... And every time that Ivan give what is requiered, they ask for a new thing... Ivan is really tired about that and now he cannot even export its classic frogs because of the 2015 quota that is in hold.
> Because of that, I'm not sure that pre sales are a good idea. People will buy a pair of lehmanni today and maybe they will never receive it ot receive it next year.
> I don't know what's happening out there but I'm pretty sure that the governement or some local regulation wants to get some money from tesoros.
> About the fundraising campaign, I have one ready to be launched since january, I was waiting for the Oophaga licence to put it online. Tesoros was planning to build a 2nd facility, dedicated to Oophaga breeding in order to be able to provide more Histrionicas and Lehmannis and reduce the selling prices.
> Maybe I'll launch it this week but modifying the goal from "help tesoros to build a new facility" to "help tesoros to face the shitty colombian governement".


If the gov't of Colombia is anything like Brazil's, it sounds like the paperwork hasn't progressed sufficiently because the officials haven't been bribed enough to move the paperwork along....


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

oophagraal said:


> ...I'm not sure that pre sales are a good idea. People will buy a pair of lehmanni today and maybe they will never receive it...


But if it's clear that it's non-refundable and that it's understood that may never receive the frogs, why wouldn't it be a good idea? If you do pre-sales, then it's quite clear who is entitled to what, if the frogs come thru. 

Why should I send charity money to Tesoros de Colombia and then someone purchases the frogs out from under me because either they have a better relationship with Tesoros de Colombia than I do (i.e. you) or has a greater amount of cash to offer (i.e. The Frog Whisperer)?

Just asking plain straightforward questions. Not inferring anything here.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

ecichlid said:


> Can someone explain to me why you would just send money to Tesoros de Colombia? Is it the promise of new frogs for export or are they doing conservation work that is worthy of charity? If it is the former, pre-orders make perfect sense. Anything else, I think would make no sense.
> 
> Let's say you want two lehmanni and they are $750 each. Perhaps $750 could be sent thru a distributor here in the U.S. If the frogs don't come thru, you're out $750. If they do come thru, you pay $750 after they are landed here at the distributor.


I'm not sure that a some distributors will agree to make those pre sales. They don't know the transportation fees, the customs fees, the veterinary inspection fees, the certificates' prices, the CITES papers... It's not easy to pre sale a frog without those datas. And if the frogs never come, they will have juridical problems.
In the other hand, if you send directly $750 to tesoros for a lehmanni, do you think that a distributor will make an import of those pre sales and pay all the import charges?
It's really complex to find a good solution.
Pre sale is risky, crowdfunding is not a long term solution, the only solution is to grant the licence to Tesoros. Maybe would it be interesting to open a online petition and share it everywhere, trying to make some noise, asking for the colombian regulation to give the licence for this project.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

ecichlid said:


> Why should I send charity money to Tesoros de Colombia and then someone purchases the frogs out from under me because either they have a better relationship with Tesoros de Colombia than I do (i.e. you) or has a greater amount of cash to offer (i.e. The Frog Whisperer)?


Relationship has nothing to do with that. Frogs are sold to distributors or to people who knows the import/export rules. Then you buy your frogs to those people. I can't call Ivan on the phone and say "hey Lozano! Congratulation for the licence! Send me some lehmannis over FEDEX please!".
For the amout of cash to offer, I agree with you.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

You send money because you believe in their program, if you don't believe in it then you don't send money it's pretty much that simple. I know I could lose two cups of good coffee a month and send $10.00 to them without crying over it because it's something I believe in and like. It's helping someone and eventually you might get something for it but maybe not is charity for the sake of charity. I purchased 5 Orange Blackfoot terribilis and two pair Dendrobates truncatus 'Nilo' from them (Thankfully) via Jeremy at JL-EXOTICS and that too helps Tesoros. I also know I can send 10 bucks to help as well. If 1,000 people send that it's 10 grand and it's a great program they are doing even though I know I can't afford a few thousand dollars for a frog once Histos are available.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Why should we send money to a private run business is a fair and honest question Echilid. I guess one i've tried hard to convince folks of the merits and despite my passion and belief have largely failed to answer in an eloquent enough way, to convince all that many,that is my failing I own that,but a man that fails and gives up is lost I'm not going to give up on a guy that has got so damn far ,it's an amazing story dig a bit it's balls to the wall inspiring that he has got so far and tried so hard for so long.

but hell I'll have another crack any way, and here, and Europe.

Yes Tesoros is run by conservationists,they are protecting and enhancing some local habitat and believe that through biocommerce they can help protect their native fauna: at this time a few Colombian large oophaga are being bred in captivity from legal old lines that came in before Colombia closed it's door to export. But they are still being taken from the wild to slke our thirst for these incredible animals. Unless one is very fortunate and a long term hobbiest lets one take a chance at one of these old lines,then these frogs taken from the wild ie smuggled are the keepers only way of keeping. That is exactly what is happening across the globe,it isn't just europe and the states it's the Asian market too. So I believe Ivan and his team are trying to offset this need for wild caught Colombian frogs,by moving forwards in a completely sustainable way. 

Being a private business I guess instantly raises questions about funding someone else's monetary gain with my or your hard earned cash. BUT, we are the very folks whom want these frogs(I know I've singled out the large oophaga,but there is more in colombia,something to appeal to almost every frogger). I see this project and the work by wikiri in Equador the Peppers at UE working Peru, the CRARC in Costa all as our future,plus the greatest possible chance of slaking at least some the demand for wild frogs to be smuggled,be in NO doubt it is happening.

First I'd try to appeal to your consience,you keep and love these frogs,really I should be preaching to the converted here,half of our combined population have no idea what a dart frog is have no idea that a global extinction is going on,with amphibians. But we the hobby do know and do care. We actually want to keep them in our little glass boxes,to have our little slices of rainforest and be bewildered by their behaviour and beauty I might add. We are part of this problem. We should be striving across the board for sustainability,so if we have a few bucks spare,where better to send it than backing an inspiring guy working his butt off to change the status quo ?


Second if this project fails then will we ever get this chance again? Somehow I don't think so!! What will happen then ?

Third the conservation model that seems to work is one where local folks benefit, if they have a monetary value to their own flora and fauna then the habitat might just get protected too,no habitat means no frogs anyway,so all is lost. Tesoros also helps raise awareness on a local community level

Forth well as keepers watching a guy turn out large oophaga such as lehmannii barely bred in captivity we might actually learn something and be better for our own frogs.


Fifth(sorry) if the countries of S america see these pioneering models of biocommerce mixed with genuine sustainability and conservation actually get off the ground and work,then maybe just maybe more folks will try to do what Ivan and his team are trying to achieve.



I find it very hard to ask folks for money to plead a case for a guy I'll probably never be fortunate to meet,but whom I have spoken too. Each time I bother him I want to help him more. Absolutely Echilid I utterly respect your question I wish I could inspire you and every single frog keeper in the ruddy world to just give a few dollars pounds yen whatever,but I can't,life isn't like this. I wish I could show folks what I see in this man and why I see it. 

There is to me at least a real big picture here,We need to be moving forwards to complete sustainability,we have parties whom want us stopped period from keeping any exotic animals. We should want sustainable frogs anyway,we love them,but how we portray that love by talking about them is not enough in these hard times. We need to try and be actively seen to support sustainable frogs and conservation with our hard earned cash if we possibly can. It sends a message to the world that we really do give a damn and this isn't all about the new frog that just suddenly appeared in someones collection,if we don't it's all talk !! 

Echilid, sorry the post to such a simple question was so long winded. I know the English won't be up to par,it's me it never will be please forgive my failings,but please find out about this. If this meander does nothing more than make you read about this project that will be a start ,not enough(for me) but a start !!

Christoph thanks for the post it is so damn sad,I was really hoping this incredible man wouldn't be struggling much longer 

take care both

Stu


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

While these are excellent points, it may be difficult to raise money because of the "for-profit" status, and for the idea of juicing officials to get permits. There aren't many specific's about what permits are being held-up, but if one particular department is the bottleneck, one decision-maker probably has the say. Pressure should be put on that decision-maker to authorize the permits. Just trying to brainstorm and if one good option arises, I'd be happy. Options for this may include the following:

Outside of Colombia:
+Contact a sister university of the a university in Columbia for assistance
+Find/hire a trade consultant/lawyer to solve the issue
+Get international conservation non-profits involved 
+Contact the Embassy, trade and tourism departments for state-Colombia partnerships and try to transmit a letter through them to Columbian officials
+Write to the Pope

In Columbia
+Contact the head of the agency directing the permitting agency to politely explain that if the permitting requirements keep changing, it creates economic uncertainty. 
+Contact the trade departments and ask if they can help--business projections showing the revenues, local job production would help
+Contact the tourism departments and ask if they can help--analysis showing the value of these frogs and butterflies to ecotourism would help
+Contact a big university in Columbia and partner with them. Get students helping etc. 
+Find/hire a consultant/lawyer to solve the issue
+Partner with local international conservation non-profits
+alter the business plan
+Write to the Pope

E-commerce
+Explore a Kickstarter fund
+Explore a sustainable-farming investment websites
+Promulgate links to a tesoros website on other websites and try to get donations
+Count the money sent to Tesoros as something other than a donation--time to get creative
-Gift certificates--for example Sell $25 gift certificates good for $35 off the big-ticket frogs
- Take payment plans or deposits, make them non-refundable, but 50% of value good for currently being imported frogs if the histos/bicolors/lehmani don't get imported after a year.
-Sell some kind of stock/shares in the company
--sell lotto tickets for one pair

I will donate a portion of my next frog sale to Tesoros.


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## justcoolforyou (Mar 20, 2015)

I hope everything works out . I would like to work with tesoros


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

oldlady25715 said:


> Outside of Colombia:
> +Contact the Embassy, trade and tourism departments for state-Colombia partnerships and try to transmit a letter through them to Columbian officials


It's a good idea, I'll write a letter that people will be able to use if they want to help. But someone will have to correct my language.
In the meantime I'll contact the people of the colombian ministry that we met and try to know in which service/regulation/department they can make something for Tesoros. 
Ivan is already struggling with all that officials but maybe if emails come from some other countries it will help.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Here's a letter that we can use :



> Dear sir,
> I want to present you a colombian project of biodiversity protection through biocommerce that is in danger since a few weeks. This project is called « Tesoros de Colombia ».
> Tesoros de Colombia was created to find a way to protect some of Colombia's great biodiversity through biocommerce and habitat conservation.
> Colombian amphibians are endangered because of smuggling and habitat loss. Tesoros de Colombia’s aim is to provide legal captive bred amphibians for exportation in order to fight against smuggling.
> ...


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

oophagraal said:


> Here's a letter that we can use :


I don't think that writing a letter is a bad idea; however, this is a very sticky situation. I don't know how much our government (or any other government for that matter) wants or should be involved in the licensing business of other countries, especially when it comes to for-profit companies. 

What you said in your letter is very good; however, I think that it would be beneficial to better support what Tesoros de Columbia will do if they are granted the license. Paint a picture of what things might look like without world-wide awareness of smuggling and black market sales of these animals. Show what a sustainable breeding program will do for Columbia and the rest of the world. Talk about how this is not only a model for Columbia's biodiversity, but for the rest of the world. Discuss how, even though Tesoros de Columbia is a for-profit, this company can infuse money into the local and national economy with its program(s). 

Thoughts?


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## Tzunu'un (Apr 15, 2014)

Perhaps they should consider being/expanding as a non-profit with a for-profit division ?
Can a Non-Profit Also Have a For-Profit Division? | LegalZoom: Legal Info


Their message is a good one and a non-profit expanding of habitat protection, education, local economic conditions, etc. would be a good thing. Putting the for-profit aspect second as a support device might help to garner support for their cause.

Not sure how things work in Colombia


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

These are US laws not Columbian laws. Non profit and for profit skate the line even in the United States I guarantee they are not making boat loads of money and they are not able to make anything right now since they were just cut off selling any frogs right now. 

Columbia is a country that has been riddled with corruption for years and they are taking big steps to curb it right now. The divisions that the ministry of agriculture and other ministries are in charge of change periodically to keep corruption down. This alone slows process down, the other thing is that this is such a tiny piece of the pie when it comes to money. 

Columbia has many other things to worry about such as the rebel war they are fighting as we speak so frogs are low priority when people are dying. I am pretty sure just as it would be expensive to lobby our government for legalizing something it is equally expensive and harder in Columbia. If the Columbian drug lords or he'll even our US pharmaceutical drug lord's were on our side the legal corruption we call lobbying would be a done deal.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I think the letter is good start. I'll take a closer look and try to dig up some stats on the value of dart frogs to ecotourism--everyone wants to see these frogs in the wild--then make a case for tesoros after showing the broader goal. I also think it should be directed toward the permit issues and less in the financial hardships. Perhaps just requesting info on the appropriate channels for subsequent communications. Then send it around and see if anything happens.


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## nagasaki (Feb 9, 2012)

oldlady25715 said:


> I think the letter is good start. I'll take a closer look and try to dig up some stats on the value of dart frogs to ecotourism--everyone wants to see these frogs in the wild--then make a case for tesoros after showing the broader goal. I also think it should be directed toward the permit issues and less in the financial hardships. Perhaps just requesting info on the appropriate channels for subsequent communications. Then send it around and see if anything happens.


 Agree about ecotourism. But, to stomp all over the jungle to find them in their Natural habitat > I would think an awesome outdoor enclosure/Enclosures would supplement real well. Educate & display . Just an added thought . ;o)


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I think its a good thought ;however, you can't have ecotoourism in the jungles controlled by drug lords. I am sure I'm not alone in not wanting to be held for ransome in the jungle. This is not Florida, it's a war zone. The frogs that are left are in some of the most remote dangerous parts of the country side and at least a days hike. 

Tesoros has been trying to get the permits that's what they have been doing for years. They have worked very hard to get to where they are now with the help from gifts and support of others and unfortunately with the new change of ministries in charge of the permits, they can no longer even make their quotas for the permits they were already granted. These are the unfortunate hurdles they have been dealing with for a long time. Tesoros is committed to captive breeding them and conservation and without them these could be extinct as the numbers smuggled are staggering. If they were not committed to this they could easily earn a small fortune selling to smugglers but they choose to push forward and fight for legalizing captive bred animals. This is why the financial support is so crucial.

The raffle ticket idea is a good idea to raise funds but this would need to be arranged by Tesoros and an importer. The import fees for the frogs would still need to be paid for by the buyer though if they are ever allowed in. It's a legal mess though so someone that's a lawyer would need to make sure what is actually allowed since it's a maybe not a guarantee.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

oldlady25715 said:


> -Gift certificates--for example Sell $25 gift certificates good for $35 off the big-ticket frogs
> - Take payment plans or deposits, make them non-refundable, but 50% of value good for currently being imported frogs if the histos/bicolors/lehmani don't get imported after a year.


I really like the gift certificate idea. You know, kinda like paying for a pre-order, but you can use it for whatever you want.

I think they could also do like am auction for the first obligates offered. You know, to the first opportunity to get a head start at breeding these frogs. From what I understand froggers are always CLAMORING to be the first.

I like the lottery idea also (hey, most people would put at least $20 down to get a chance at a pair worth much more), but I think there are laws and stuff related to gambling here that might make things more difficult. Although it's outside the US, so who knows...


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

It would be a raffle ticket rather than a lotto ticket it's not money you would have a possible chance at winning f they did become available, so I doubt there is issues with that. It would need an import sponsor and Tesoros to be on board for this to be even possible. I think the buyer would also know they are responsible for the customs, import, inspection and shipping fees per frog as these costs add up as well its not just these frogs that cost money.

For me it's easier to just send them 10 or 20 bucks. I personally don't care if they are registered as non profit in the United States I believe they are doing an amazing thing that takes a boat load of time and effort on there part and I hope they can make a living for themselves and a few others as well. I commend everyone that has helped make what has happened possible and for the future possibilities as well. I wish them all the success in the world and hope they can get past these new hurdles with our support as a community not for self gain but out of the love and kindness of our hearts. I know I owe the rainforest a few bucks.


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## brendan0923 (Sep 15, 2014)

Pre-orders are a good idea, though it may be difficult due to the fact that the imports of these species may or may not occur. It's difficult to justify a $700-$1000 purchase for a frog that may not even arrive.

I think that a raffle or something may also be a good idea as long as Tesoros and the importers are on board. It's cheaper; I would be more than happy to throw $20 down for a chance at a lehmani or bicolor.

Although I agree with planted-tnk-guy in that it's pretty easy to just send $10-20 to Tesoros just to aid the program.

Either way, I hope everything works out and we can not only conserve but enjoy these awesome species in captivity.


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## bicyclephysics (Apr 26, 2013)

What changes does the regulating agency want changed for the environmental management plan? If this is the hurdle are there ways to amend the plan to the new standard?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I think the petition idea is really good actually. We can distribute it here, on facebook, and get people to sign it at shows. run them here, Canada, Europe, and asia and we could get several thousand people if we're dedicated enough. Not only that, but we could probably convince people outside of the hobby to sign it if we explain the great possibilities of decreasing smuggling pressure. Send a petition like that to the Colombian government and I'm sure we could catch their attention.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

thedude said:


> I think the petition idea is really good actually. We can distribute it here, on facebook, and get people to sign it at shows. run them here, Canada, Europe, and asia and we could get several thousand people if we're dedicated enough. Not only that, but we could probably convince people outside of the hobby to sign it if we explain the great possibilities of decreasing smuggling pressure. Send a petition like that to the Colombian government and I'm sure we could catch their attention.


I like the idea too, and making it an international effort could only help I think. I think it should be worded to show that we aren't just interested in the program so we can get their cool frogs, but because of the economic and environmental aspects, and the precedent that it sets which should ultimately benefit their country in the long run. 

It might be good to say something about the scale of this project and how the new guidelines have made it much more difficult for things like this to work there (They have a haven't they?). If it was worded very carefully it might be good to include something about how helping projects like this succeed without to much red tape or backdoor dealings would help improve the country's reputation also.

...2 cents


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

So we have 2 good ideas that are not really hard to organize :
- *Rafle tickets to win 2 lehmanni* (1 for USA and 1 for Europe) + export taxes and transportation. The winner will only have to pay the arrival fees (local taxes).
- *Petition* asking to allow tesoros de colombia to continue their exports + licence modification for oophaga.

For the 1st option I'll talk with Ivan tonight and try to see how to organize it.
For the 2nd option I'll find a good website who is specialized in petition and lauch one tomorrow. Then I'll need your help to spread it.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

It wouldn't be a bad idea having Tesoros on Go Fund Me as an environmental conservation and outreach program.


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

It might not be a bad idea to have a better developed section of the actual species being worked on. What species are being worked with, representative pics (was that bicolor an actual morph that will be offered or just a cool looking frog?), and ballpark prices. Make it obvious that there's a benefit to them as well. The website is a little sparse on that. 

The average person will see this thread and think "why should I send money to someone who is just going to hand it to a corrupt bureaucrat, on the off chance that he can be bribed enough to where some rich guys here will be able to get some 1K frogs I'll never afford?"


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

I always thought the frog raffle was a good idea, if it can be done. I do believe that the price of the ticket should be an amount that can bring Ivan a substantial amount of money. If I remember correct, I originally stated something like 50 bucks a ticket. Might be pricey but look at what you are getting. Even if you don't win its going to a great cause.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Here's the petition link : 
https://www.change.org/p/environmen...otat-and-the-licence-modification-for-oophaga

Please review and say me the english errors


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## ZenMonkey (Sep 17, 2013)

I would be sure to contact some of the major "frog people" on Twitter. @jodirowley, @AmphibianPhil, and @AmphibiaWeb get a lot of views off the top of my head, and there's lots of conservation-related ones I can't recall. Especially if you ask @AmphibiaWeb for people to contact as well as retweets of your appeal, they will almost definitely comply.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

ZenMonkey said:


> I would be sure to contact some of the major "frog people" on Twitter. @jodirowley, @AmphibianPhil, and @AmphibiaWeb get a lot of views off the top of my head, and there's lots of conservation-related ones I can't recall. Especially if you ask @AmphibiaWeb for people to contact as well as retweets of your appeal, they will almost definitely comply.


That would be nice if you do it! I'm sharing on some facebook groups.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

already post it on FB on a few groups


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Signed it...good luck.


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## Celtic Aaron (Jun 12, 2013)

Done! I hope that this helps. I will support many other options as well...let me know how I can help.


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## LoganR (Oct 25, 2013)

Signed it as well. For those interested in contacting the consulates directly:
Consular Directory | Embassy of Colombia


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

A couple of recent events surrounding sustainable amphibian farming have saddened me this week.
Oophagraal, thank you for your petition. You have asked for comments about the language used, so I have included a proposed rewrite below. I have tried not to alter the structure or content too much. A full re-write (from me) would take up much more time.

Tesoros de Colombia was created to protect Colombia's unique biodiversity through bio-commerce and habitat conservation. 
Many Colombian amphibians are in high demand and have become endangered due primarily to habitat loss and smuggling. Tesoros de Colombia’s aim is to provide legal, captive bred amphibians as an alternative to smuggled animals and their offspring. There is a market for these animals that will be supplied one way or another. Tesoros’s use of these resources is favorable because the income will go back into Colombian communities rather than to fund further smuggling enterprises.
Throughout the last 9 years Tesoros de Colombia has worked diligently to acquire the necessary permits needed to export several species of frogs and butterflies. They have broken new ground with this project and succeeded in released the first legally exported Colombian frogs in 2012. Their struggles have been based on the fact that they are being held to standards that were never intended to cover a wildlife farming project. The national laws were primarily designed to govern the actions of oil prospectors and mining operations. Many aspects of this project do not fit into the confines of these laws, which makes things unclear for Colombian government officials. 

In early 2015, law changed and Tesoros de Colombia is no longer controlled by the same local authorities but by a new national authority that is not familiar the project.
This national authority has asked them to change their environmental management plan and make a complex one that meets the same environmental objectives of oil and mining companies.
Until this new plan is written and accepted, Tesoros de Colombia cannot have their export quotas for 2015. This halts all exports, including the ones that were previously permitted. This change is also holding up a pending license modification that would allow them to export some of Colombia’s most endangered and sought after amphibians (Oophaga).
Tesoros de Colombia will need to have patience while the government gets familiar with the project. We hope that as the new agencies receive more information about Tesoros de Colombia, the permit and quotas will be granted. 
In the meantime, Tesoros de Colombia will be left with no income (no exports = no money). They can neither pay for their facilities current expenses nor their newly required, expanded environmental plan.
Smugglers will not be affected by these changing regulations and will continue to remove Colombian resources. We (hobbyists / Biologists / concerned global citizens) respectfully, think it would be wise for the Colombian regulatory agencies to grant (at least temporarily) the 2015 quotas and the Oophaga license in order for Tesoros de Colombia to generate income to be able to continue their operation and generate the newly required environmental plan.

I would like to thank everyone that has stood up for and continues to stand up for these types of projects. Doing things the right way will always be more difficult and expensive. Please keep that in mind and remember that every purchase is a vote.

Chris Sherman


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Signed and posted on my facebook page


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

LoganR said:


> Signed it as well. For those interested in contacting the consulates directly:
> Consular Directory | Embassy of Colombia


It would be nice if you do it 



Sherman said:


> A couple of recent events surrounding sustainable amphibian farming have saddened me this week.
> Oophagraal, thank you for your petition. You have asked for comments about the language used, so I have included a proposed rewrite below. I have tried not to alter the structure or content too much. A full re-write (from me) would take up much more time.


Thank you Chris I edited the text!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

95 supporters as of now. Keep it up guys. Get it shared and posted where you can. Hopefully even some non hobby members will sign as well.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Petition signed...petion posted on some of the brit forums,will try and get to europe later in the day. 

Guys could we try for funding/sponsorship from businesses related to the herp world as a start,they have a vested interest,their products being bought by us. I'd really like to go further and tackle some oil and mining companies, I have no idea how to do this,but with the right words in place we might be able to cajole an enviromental side out of this, linking their support of Tesoros with conservation. Yes these ideas are left field i'm trying to think of ways to get bigger sums of money to Ivan than the hobby could plausibly donate.

We have a two fold problem,one is to get the Tesoros team through this initial hurdle,caused by the inability to sell their frogs second to change the gov's attitude,which will alliviate the problem anyway. So while we work on trying to pursuade the govs to allow permits,we could also maybe try for funds elsewhere. This is just me musing i've been pondering what else we could do to raise funds now! I have no ideas whom to contact,although have dug a bit here on a local" herp" company level and have a half lead to try and track down.

It just strikes me that an oil company deals with huge sums of money and although they might seem a strange choice to sponsor Ivan,maybe in that irony is a way of them being seen to help conservation. 

As I say very left field and probably a non starter,but I thought I'd chuck it out there and see what you learned folks think.

I'd also build on Chris Sherman's post of thanks for all the great ideas and the will to make this project succeed shown here,by you guys,very cool

seeya

Stu


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

Stu, I think that's a great idea. The oil companies can show the people that they care about the environment. The 5th Colombia Oil & Gas Conference and Exhibition is stated to begin the 28 of April and end on the 30. Some of the speakers are the Minister of Enviroment and Sustainable Development, Juan Carlos Losada Vargas of the House of Representatives of Colombia and a few others. They have a FaceBook and Twitter account, maybe we can reach out to them with the petition or our concerns. Hopefully, someone on this Forum has the know how. I know there's not a lot of time it ends on the 30th. 
The site of this Confetence is cwccolombia.com


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

Another avenue, we can try is reaching out to Shell the oil company. They are U.S. Based, a subsidiary of Royal Dutch Shell and a sponsor of Colombia's oil conference. We might get thier support for Tesoro.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Stu?! What a gooooooood idea!!!! It would be huge and so big that an oil company helps Tesoros! 
Now the hardest part is to get in touch with those guys and try to convince them.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You know, the oil/mining company sponsorship doesn't sound like a bad idea. Oil companies can always benefit from some good PR. This would be a good opportunity for one of them to get involved with a local grassroots conservation and biodiversity management program. Supporting Tesoros would be a DROP in the bucket for one of these companies and could yield some good press/karma.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Petition signed! Thanks for the work of setting it up!! Always great to see the support for Tesoros.


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## kblack3 (Mar 9, 2015)

Signed!! Hopefully there will be full support from all frog communities worldwide I'd like to see this succeed and the wildlife be preserved for future generations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Signed and shared, like the oil company idea too. Probably a long shot but if it worked could pay off big.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Signed and shared, like the oil company idea too. Probably a long shot but if it worked could pay off big.


Be careful young man you ARE being watched 

Guys speak soon little time I have been banging the drum elsewhere and dropping by to see if my insanity needs treating, 

It is a long shot Dave,but if we can pull one,that might be all we'll need. 

Guys have scribbled out some stuff, which was going to be my reply, I'll just post it now and ask for any thoughts anything advice wise, then your brains can get going

Coqui/Christoph,I want Ivan through this hardship now!! I spoke to him recently, I can't bare what he is having to go through,I feel the guy has done enough and we need to think bigger to stop him worrying and let him get on with the day to day running and care of his business


In all honesty I didn't know whether the idea was madness,but they do have the money and they could help,which would also look good for them, IE helping a project run by conservationists would look good as a public relations exercise. I also like the idea that this would almost fold back on it'self, in that, the very reason Ivan is struggling is legislation for mining and oil companies. But I don't have a clue where to start,either. 

I'm not sure whether the first "target" should be companies whom work in Colombia? Following this oil/mining companies must have environmental departments whom deal with not only issues created by their activities,but public relations aswell. So personally I'd go for those guys. I don't know whether I'm the right guy for this job,i'm not the most eloquent ,but I have passion for the project and will gladly try anything to get Ivan back on track.

Hell we can only get a no,what's to loose

take care

Stu


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

Stu, I feel your passion for Ivan's cause as do many others on this forum. I am also not sure about which person or department to reach. However; I do agree the worst they can say is no and that's why, I send Shell, an Email about Tesoros Asking for help. Hopefully, I get a positive response and if it's a no, then I will just continue trying other companies.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

stu&shaz said:


> They do have the money and they could help,which would also look good for them. i.e. helping a project run by conservationists would look good as a public relations exercise. I also like the idea that this would almost fold back on it'self, in that, the very reason Ivan is struggling is legislation for mining and oil companies.
> 
> I'm not sure whether the first "target" should be companies whom work in Colombia? Following this oil/mining companies must have environmental departments whom deal with not only issues created by their activities,but public relations aswell. So personally I'd go for those guys.
> 
> Hell we can only get a no,what's to loose


Nice Stu, that sounds reasonable. I think you are plenty eloquent, and if you faltered, then your passion would more than make up for it. Go for it.
Is there a Green Colombian energy company that would be most receptive?

Chris


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

When the petitition will reach 200 signature (today I think), I'll contact the ANLA and CITES colombia and send them the first bunch of signatures and comments. 
Stu/Coqui, about the oil companies, Ivan Ramos (the other Ivan of tesoros de colombia) has friends who work in some of those companies. So it will be a first contact who can help to reach the head of those companies.
Chris I'll ask the 2 Ivan for the green energy companies.


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## justcoolforyou (Mar 20, 2015)

Columbia total bad government . praying for tesoros...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

This pretty Pathetic that in a world wide hobby with so many ppl we have only managed to get less then 200 signatures, where are all the ppl that are always wanting to get these frogs? now when they need your support you run!

F*CKING UNREAL!


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

agree with you Julio. figuring it has been posted on several different frog sites. I signed it.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Julio said:


> This pretty Pathetic that in a world wide hobby with so many ppl we have only managed to get less then 200 signatures, where are all the ppl that are always wanting to get these frogs? now when they need your support you run!
> 
> F*CKING UNREAL!


Frustration so far shared buddy,buuut it is still early days. For my part I have had a hectic time and haven't got to EU yet but I will,very soon. We aren't done yet Julio I feel ya mate,but we have to keep pushing. 

Julio I think I have made an error which might also be present here,in a way. News of the petition I stuck on an old Tesoros thread ,I thought that this would have given new folks an opportunity to see all the links to what Tesoros is doing. But I think that just maybe folks are not realizing that we have a petition set up. I wonder if we could get more takers with a separate thread,entitled Tesoros petition please sign or some such,basically spelling it out for them in black and white!! Thoughts please. 


Julio, do you speak Spannish? Sorry if that is a strange question,I guess i'm asking from your name,it might just be useful in someway? Mate I hope that isn't in anyway offensive to you it isn't meant in that way at all,I just had this vision of writing to an oil exec in Colombia,ya know an OMG moment,then thought HMMMM 

Chistoph I have just sent a brief note of support to Ivan and told him about this conversation I think it's good that he knows we are trying to help,what ever happens at least he knows that some of the hobby are behind him and want him to succeed ,it's very important for his moral I feel at this difficult time.

Coqui,that is bloody awesome mate,good for you.

Chris thanks for that, no worries,I'll try my best mate,the passion is all I have anyway,and that my friend will make turning me away harder.

Guys let's keep pushing , the positive nature shown here is inspiring thank you

Stu


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

I promoted the petition on my personal facebook page, the JL-Exotics facebook page, and the American Frog Day facebook page and have been able to add ~ 30 signatures this way in the last 3 days. Facebook limits what is shared so EVERYONE needs to share the page. 

SHARE SHARE SHARE!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey Stu,

Yes I speak Spanish. I know it's early but we should have had way more signatures then that by now.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Julio said:


> This pretty Pathetic that in a world wide hobby with so many ppl we have only managed to get less then 200 signatures, where are all the ppl that are always wanting to get these frogs? now when they need your support you run!
> 
> F*CKING UNREAL!


Yeah... people are lazy and stubborn. If everyone in the NYC and Oophaga facebook groups signed the petition we'd like have at least 550 signatures...


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

stu&shaz said:


> Chistoph I have just sent a brief note of support to Ivan and told him about this conversation I think it's good that he knows we are trying to help,what ever happens at least he knows that some of the hobby are behind him and want him to succeed ,it's very important for his moral I feel at this difficult time.


He knows about this thread since the beginning and he's really happy to see all that support.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

I just provided the link to 2 facebook frog groups, and I`m asking the useless facebook people on my friends list to do something other than post garbage and sign the damn thing.

I don`t plan on getting any of these frogs, but that doesn`t matter to me and it shouldn`t matter to anyone else in the hobby if you want them or not


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

oophagraal said:


> When the petitition will reach 200 signature .


206 as of now


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I just provided the link to 2 facebook frog groups, and I`m asking the useless facebook people on my friends list to do something other than post garbage and sign the damn thing.
> 
> I don`t plan on getting any of these frogs, but that doesn`t matter to me and it shouldn`t matter to anyone else in the hobby if you want them or not


I shared this on my page and not one of my friends(besides those that are on the boards) have signed it, but they did have plenty of time to drown my page in memes of dumb political crap. It's kinda sad really. I don't keep random people on my fb page. Everyone I know in one way or another. Many of whom I have done multiple deployments with and they still can't take 1 minute to sign it even though they spend hours a day online.
I will doubtfully ever own anything from Tesoros but I still think they are doing great things for the hobby.


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## herbivrus (May 28, 2014)

I signed, of course, and have also donated money to the Tesoros project. Another way we can help is to buy the frogs they already produce, rather than wait on the much-desired big oophaga species. I can vouch for the fact that these are spectacular frogs: I now have from Tesoros 1.2 Orange Black-foot teribilis, 1.1 D. truncatus 'Nilo', and a group of five P. aurotaenia (a much under-appreciated frog; mine are bold, beautiful, and have a lovely call). I've seen the Colombian auratus in person, as well, and they are unique and gorgeous. We all talk about supporting Tesoros, yet retailers here have trouble moving the frogs they receive from them as hobbyists seem reluctant to pay a premium for legally imported animals. These are excellent animals, too, not mere dime-a-dozen examples of their species. Get in touch with JL-Exotics, Understory, or any of the importers of these frogs to purchase some, and you can help make the Tesoros project a sustainable one. 

--Aaron


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Julio said:


> Hey Stu,
> 
> Yes I speak Spanish. I know it's early but we should have had way more signatures then that by now.


Hey buddy,Julio you are spot on in your first post,100% balls to the wall correct,this does mess with me too mate on a huge level. The reason is why my reply was like it was is retained with in that:

I feed on the positive energy you guys create,you guys inspire me,I want to help. I struggle with the apathy mate .We have a crack at helping wild frogs helping stop some species being smuggled and an amazing geuine man to back, whom won't lie down and give up. Dart keepers should be throwing each other out of their way in their rush to sign this,it's 2 minutes of time,stone the crows they should be doing the same to give a few bucks. But I can't let that in bro, I just can't. I have to faith in my hobby that they will come through, and that motivates me to try harder.




I have just been contacted by one of you 'orrible lot who is giving some pums,for Tesoros. I feel like crap,(nowt just some bloody virus),but now I've got this f*ck off big smile on my face. So in the few mins I have now I'm going to redo my posts in blightly and try again

belucky mate 

Stu


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

I'm glad the support is starting to get a bit of speed; but I'm gutted that it took me making my girlfriend and one of my mates sign the petition just to make 200 signatures....

Onwards and upwards....

Regards,
Richie


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

The link to the petition is way back in this thread now.. so here again is, the link oophagraal posted. It only takes a minute  

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...www.change.org/p/environment...on-for-oophaga


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## Meefloaf (Apr 22, 2013)

Julio said:


> This pretty Pathetic that in a world wide hobby with so many ppl we have only managed to get less then 200 signatures, where are all the ppl that are always wanting to get these frogs? now when they need your support you run!
> 
> F*CKING UNREAL!


this petition was posted on one of the facebook groups for people who have or like oophaga, over 700 members and it was at 129 people i think, just wow


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

If anyone can give me a lead at Ecopetrol,gov sponsored oil company in Colombia,I'd appreciate it :struggling to find a contact point,but will keep searching

cheers

Stu


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## Robzilla56 (Aug 2, 2011)

It would be interesting if someone could put an article together and get something posted on huffington post or cnn. Climate change is a hot topic right now. I would think if you just made that part of the heading people would eat it up. After all amphibians are among the most easily affected by human influence and climate change. I don't think the article should emphasize getting the permits strictly for the hobby but surely it would also benefit institutions and university's as well as zoo's to get these frogs legally and sustainably out of Columbia. I think if we could pull that off and have the petition link in there then people who don't even know these frogs exist might sign the petition. 

Just an idea, I'm not a writer at all but anything for more support.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

ecichlid said:


> Can someone explain to me why you would just send money to Tesoros de Colombia? Is it the promise of new frogs for export or are they doing conservation work that is worthy of charity? If it is the former, pre-orders make perfect sense. Anything else, I think would make no sense.
> 
> Let's say you want two lehmanni and they are $750 each. Perhaps $750 could be sent thru a distributor here in the U.S. If the frogs don't come thru, you're out $750. If they do come thru, you pay $750 after they are landed here at the distributor.


Legit question: This is how I answer it for myself, and maybe it will resonate with others...

They preserve some habitat, and while I don't know if they employ anyone other then the Ivans, they likely pump some money into the local economy. There are also research and education opportunities that if not already being done, likely would if the project becomes a success. Also If successful I believe it sets a nice precedent that may encourage other similar ventures throughout the world... which would probably be good for a lot of people, plants and animals.

*Then there is the fact that we will probably never see many of these frogs in our hobby legally anytime soon if it doesn't succeed*, (like some of the truly stunning andinobates species)... or at least keep going for awhile longer. 

I may never be able to purchase a frog from Tesoros, but maybe in a few years from now I'll be able to pick some up that were bred from founder stock originating from Tesoros. To me that is worth kicking $5-$30 dollars to them periodically, which I have been doing. (Just donated $10, and that is the 3rd donation I think I've made, and will make more. *Every little bit helps, seriously If you have a paypal account people how much does it hurt you to kick em a buck or two? That can add up.*)

Basically I'm paying for the hope/some day privilege of having these frogs in the hobby (and possibly in my vivs), *and the good the project does in the mean time *as it works towards the goal of supplying those frogs, (and butterflies). 

And again, who knows what research and/or education opportunities may result further down the road. Would be cool to get some dedicated researchers down there doing papers on these animals, and if somehow the research funding could help the commercial side of the project and/or vise versa, all the better. Maybe this help pave the way for more research down in Colombia, which as we know hasn't been the safest place for scientist to go roaming around all willy nilly. Maybe that will help lead to similar projects in other places not easily accessible to scientists. 

There are a lot of maybes, but hopeful/good "maybes", so I'm encouraging people to think past the immediate benefit to themselves, and think about what might be, (but that may never happen if we don't help *NOW*). Probably not a terrible thing to give a little something back to the people in the places our animals come from either


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Along with the petition, please see this thread as an alternative method to help out.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I just searched Amazon's smile charity page that allows you to automatically donate to a charity of your choice when you place an order and didn't find tesoros de colombia as an available choice. If it could be added as one, and people in the hobby set that up it could help. 
http://smile.amazon.com/ (Make sure once it is setup for whatever charity you want money to go to that you pull the product page up through the "Smile" version of amazon when you order)

I do this with ebay and amazon both, though I have them setup to donate to Vital ground, (Grizzly bear habitat preservation). I do my Tesoros manually, but I'd think at least a few froggers here would be willing to setup both ebay and amazon with frog related charities, right


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Hey Dave,

Unfortunately, Amazon smile is only for "real" charities. Unless I missed something (which is possible), Tesoros is not technically a registered charity organization.

From Amazon's website:


> You can choose from almost one million eligible 501(c)(3) public charitable organizations.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Dendro Dave said:


> I don't know if they employ anyone other then the Ivans


They employ a full family who lives on tesoros land.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

carola1155 said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> Unfortunately, Amazon smile is only for "real" charities. Unless I missed something (which is possible), Tesoros is not technically a registered charity organization.
> 
> From Amazon's website:


Crap, just checked eBay too and looks like nonprofits only 

Well there is always Help Us | Tesoros de Colombia

Some peoples frog and build threads get thousands of views. If those "viewers" donated $1 to Tesoros or other causes like Crarc through their donation pages.... would add up.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Letter to eco petrol,first base sent, hobby alerted in Holland and Germany.sorry sabbath is a hard day for me of work, I got stuff done and didn't come back....sssssllllllleeeeepppp

Dave like ya posts mate, cool seeing another take on the same Q,you won, No seriously, good stuff mate cheers.

Stu


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Ivan has a meeting wednesday with the ANLA, it's time to reach 500 signatures!


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Posted the survey in the Facebook Ameerega groups I'm in, hopefully it generates a couple more signatures.


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

I just got the Email about the meeting. That's a start. Let's all reach out to friends and family and make the 500 mark.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

I'll let you know tonight (french time) the results of the meeting.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Just a thought. If supporting startups in this space is of enough interest a foundation could be formed and provide grants to groups like tesoros when times are rough. 

That's take care of some legal quandaries. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Results of the meeting : they want the documents and studies that they asked before and they want it the way they asked.

So I'll add more recipients to the petition, recipients that have a higher decision power than the ANLA.
(for each signature of the petition, a mail is sent to each recipient)


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Not sure I follow?


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

more explanations from ivan :


> We had a meeting yesterday with the ANLA, we are working on the documents that they want us to provide and the studies to make. We think that we'll be able to provide all the requierements needed within 3 weeks. The only thing we can offer you today is a big thank you for your support and your dedication. Those days we had help from all over the world and it's really impresive to see that.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

oophagraal said:


> more explanations from ivan :


Well it is encouraging that he thinks they can meet those requirements. I was afraid what they were asking for might be beyond the resources of a relatively small project like this, requiring a team of lawyers, metric crap ton of cash, and more leg work then a couple guys on their own might be able to handle. Sounds like there is still hope


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well it is encouraging that he thinks they can meet those requirements. I was afraid what they were asking for might be beyond the resources of a relatively small project like this, requiring a team of lawyers, metric crap ton of cash, and more leg work then a couple guys on their own might be able to handle. Sounds like there is still hope


Allways hope Mr Dave,but yes thanks for the second post Christoph,it is more optimistic sounding than the first.

Guys for me,I've got nowhere so far,buut I'm waiting on a variety of replies to emails sent,which hopefully might give me a lead for just whom to contact. 
I'm tracking Ecopetrol at the moment,they are a state owned oil company working out of Colombia,I know that they have actually commisioned some environmental studies. So my letters so far have been sent to a couple of froggy scientists,they might know someone involved in the studies...small world phibs.... whom might just give me said contact point in the right department. I know this might well be a complete wild goose chase,lets face it the odds are completely against me,but although I have been quiet I haven't stopped trying to help,I just need a brake man!!

Here is the page I hope might give me a lead and also gives me hope of a remote chance of success,after all this company fits perfectly,they are state run,( so the gov picks up the tab for the problems it has caused,plus they will be helping another Colombian company,plus they seem to have put funds up for environmental projects of sorts. Finally it would be great for their own PR http://www.ecopetrol.com.co/wps/por...CaTq9utnqqhaUsVRJWY_2feccz98fQEHj4DX4qV8Fl2pa

So even though a snowball surviving hell has probably more chance than I,i'll end how I started this...always hope.

Oh if anyone wants to help,or sees anything potentially i have missed,can give me a lead,just shout at me please.

take care all

Stu


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Has anyone reached out to the O'Connell Lab at Harvard? They might be someone who is good to get backing/support from on the research/science side:
O'Connell Lab

"The O'Connell Lab participates in various outreach programs both in the greater Boston area and in South America. Our goal to teach both children and adults about rainforest biodiversity, amphibian conservation and generally about how science is awesome."

Gaining her support would strongly promote Tesoro's mission for education, science, and conservation across two countries/continents. The O'Connell lab would also benefit, as it would allow a few more species for them to work with (I believe they focus mostly on oophaga)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

hypostatic said:


> Has anyone reached out to the O'Connell Lab at Harvard? They might be someone who is good to get backing/support from on the research/science side:
> O'Connell Lab
> 
> "The O'Connell Lab participates in various outreach programs both in the greater Boston area and in South America. Our goal to teach both children and adults about rainforest biodiversity, amphibian conservation and generally about how science is awesome."
> ...


Ya that is kinda what I was trying to suggest earlier. Seems like this Tesoros deal, would be a really good research opportunity for someone, and maybe that would draw some attention to it, and expand the conservation/education side. Heck even if some scientists went down there and visited maybe they could convince them to donate!


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

Signed/shared to hopefully get a few more.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

hypostatic said:


> Has anyone reached out to the O'Connell Lab at Harvard? They might be someone who is good to get backing/support from on the research/science side:
> O'Connell Lab
> 
> "The O'Connell Lab participates in various outreach programs both in the greater Boston area and in South America. Our goal to teach both children and adults about rainforest biodiversity, amphibian conservation and generally about how science is awesome."
> ...


Dan, I need you,Dave I need you ! Guys i'm not the articulate we all know this ,I'm the dummy that talks to frogs: it's cool what the hell can i say? But guys, OMG ,this is stuff we seriously need to jump on. PM me lads,put our collective passion together. I'll write letters,you two I know would be better ,but this isn't about me or you or us it's about how we collectively can put heads together to help another,I'll give it all I can.... so I guess you two would have to aswell But can we collectively nail this and get a message out please? 


Another boffin got hit, poor bugger, 

There will always be a smile in my posts lads,by the same token,I really am very serious,if our hobby won't take two mins then we can take hours!! We might fail,ha I'm set for that:but the man that never tried never did nuffin,we can do more,let's not dwell let's do

bring it on

Stu


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Stu -- I'd be happy to help draft/send an email to Dr. O'Connell. I work in academia (biomedical engineering) so I think I have an idea on how to approach her. I think most of her work is focused around Ecuador --I imagine because it must be generally easier to do research there-- but I see that she's started working with Mantellas, so I'm sure she's interested in expanding. From her website:

"At Harvard, we have a large frog colony that we work with year-round. In Ecuador, we work with the Little Devil frog (Oophaga sylvatica) in collaboration with Centro Jambatu."

Maybe she'd be interested in working with some critically endangered frogs in Colombia, in collaboration with Tesoros? . I'm sure she'd be very enticed, especially if Tesoros could send her lab some free frogs for research purposes.

I really think this is a prime potential collaboration in the making.

What I would need to make this happen is the contact for someone in Tesoros (Ivan?) who can fill me in on what they'd like to accomplish with research in general with Tesoros, and how they could potentially collaborate with the lab. Emails and stuff can be sent over PM.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Dan, I'm sure we can get to Ivan for you,tell you what send me your email, by PM . Tomorrow,it's late here dude, I'll send that over to Ivan for you,then you can talk directly, hopefully. No promises here Dan I just want this project to succeed as you do,but I'll sort that bit,if that is ok with everyone. 

I concur your skill set/expertise is better mate,but as before anything I can do to help...done !! Just ask buddy 

Stu


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

stu&shaz said:


> Dan, I need you,Dave I need you ! Guys i'm not the articulate we all know this ,I'm the dummy that talks to frogs: it's cool what the hell can i say? But guys, OMG ,this is stuff we seriously need to jump on. PM me lads,put our collective passion together. I'll write letters,you two I know would be better ,but this isn't about me or you or us it's about how we collectively can put heads together to help another,I'll give it all I can.... so I guess you two would have to aswell But can we collectively nail this and get a message out please?
> 
> 
> Another boffin got hit, poor bugger,
> ...


Articulate, moi? ...Now, sir, you flatter me: It may make you sorrowful to hear, but alas I would not know where to begin.

I will try though, if some could helpeth me with guidance. If perchance thou could send me something; I could look it over, find inspiration and lend an ear and/or a voice to it


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Good ideas are coming ^^
Stu, you are doing an amazing job and your english is better than mine lol
Dave and Hypo please feel free to contact anyone, you can talk in the name of tesoros de colombia because I think we are all tesoros!
My first message was not optimistic but it was just the thruth, the ANLA standed on their position about the different papers and studies that they need. 
But after, Ivan Ramos (the other Ivan) talked to me and said that he will work days and nights to write and make all that is needed. You all know Ivan Lozano, but you have to know that Ivan Ramos is working a lot for tesoros de colombia and for the moment he's not paid. If they succeed (and the will!), Ivan Ramos will finally get a salary and will have the best job in the world : working with Oophaga and write studies about them.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> Articulate, moi? ...Now, sir, you flatter me: It may make you sorrowful to hear, but alas I would not know where to begin.
> 
> I will try though, if some could helpeth me with guidance. If perchance thou could send me something; I could look it over, find inspiration and lend an ear and/or a voice to it


Buddy if you can search that Ecoptrol site I linked a few posts back that would be awesome, I've only found one email contact point so far(message sent days back),which is why I have gone left field and contacted scientists,that have worked with darts. but no replies as yet. Dave that would be a massive help to me,as I'm sure i've missed something despite the time I have spent searching. 

cheers kiddo and yup you did make me smile

Stu

ps Christoph yes I know mate,i'm just trying to be as positive as I can,I have sent a message to the other Ivan,let's hope we can all do little bits that will help get them through all this


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## Coqui (Jan 17, 2013)

I read my emails this morning and found out from change.org - A message that stated Tesoros is approximately 80% done with the paperwork, however they need a company called Positiva Arl to do the environmental risk study. Ivan has been trying to get an appointment with them. 
Arl has a twitter account : https://twitter.com/PositivaCol
I invite all twitter users to twitt @PositivaCol it's time to go to Tesoros De Colombia #positivaGOtoTesoros and share the link to this petition. Thanks a lot for your help!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

For those of us who choose not to tweet...ugh....is there another way to get the message to those who care/count/control the destiny??? I barely have enough time to dust...hah...but would make the determined effort to do what I can...thanks


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

If you don't use twitter you can send an email to :

```
[email protected] 
and
[email protected]
```
Asking them to finally meet tesoros de colombia company and start the environmental risk study.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

will do...thanks for supplying those email addresses...


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Tesoros de colombia has a meeting today with the authorities. They will bring all the requiered papers except the environmental study. 
They still have no news from Positiva Arl for a meeting date.
If everything goes well with the papers that they will present today, they should get their 2015 quotat for classic frogs, which is a good start.
I'll let you know the results of the meeting tonight.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

What are classic frogs?


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

dmartin72 said:


> What are classic frogs?


the ones that he already had the licence for.
Truncatus, terribilis, aurotenia and auratus.


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## oophagraal (Jan 2, 2014)

Papers were given, tesoros is now waiting for some news from the ANLA.


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