# new set-up



## Ben E

just added three young imitator today....am going to see what population can be sustained without additional feeders. Microfauna load is through the roof and just added a culture of ants today....water is recycled.....air pump provides continual air input to 6 air-stones throughout the compost to counter CO2 gass-out. Compost is fed with vegetative kitchen scraps, decaying wood, dead leaves, and occasional bloodmeal dustings. 
The tank is still new so this is still very much an "experiment"
I am terrible at trying to get the pictures to work so sorry if it does not work


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## Darks!de

Wow, that is an awesome project. Keep us posted. Is that all concrete?

Luke


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## Guest

Woah, I need to do that with my next tank.


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## EverettC

Carefull, that's a lot harder than it looks. I made a tiered 29 over the summer. Nothing's in it yet but it was really difficult to make and get right. Looks good tho, has a waterfall and everything.


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## Guest

Id just use plastic and seal it 100% With a little hindge door so I can let them come out when I feel like it.  But it will be challenging.


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## Ben E

there is no concrete it is all a special blend of clays and soil that i used to make the water feature and to seal off all cracks where the frogs could get through...the clay is quite awesome and i have created a number of water features in other tanks with it....


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## Darks!de

What kind and from where?

Luke


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## Ben E

the clay is a mixture of bentonite, local clay, loamy soil....i have experimented with it further for making backgrounds with added topical orgainics.....have been watching the frogs the last couple days and they have gotten FAT they are continually "grazing" through the viv mostly on stuff too small for me to see....looking at the microfauna load i think it is safe to say that breeding sites and space will be the limiting factor of the imitator population, not food. But time will tell. i will post back in about 2-3 months and show you how it looks.....Is Brent out there to give some feedback on this? I will be doing berlese samples to see what kind of microfauna diversity i have....I have plans to continually "bio-recruit" from various woods locations throughout the year to get a terrarium friendly ecolgical mix of organisms...nothing like having frogs without food culture


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## geckguy

Nice design.


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## Ben E

well have a few weeks of growth time for some pictures....

the frogs are fat and sassy and the compost is cranking....one great unforseen benifit is that all escaped ff from my other tanks migrate to the compost tank! no stray wanderers....i have never seen plants grow so fast...the species are not particularly fast growers either.....maybe the additional CO2?


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## Schism

Looks smelly! 

Also looks very green, nice growth for sure.


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## KeroKero

Wow Ben!

I'll grant I had misgivings about the tank in the begining, but its obviously doing well! Maybe I can check it out at FrogDay and finally debunk my last misgiving, the smell


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## Ben E

sure thing corey...there is no odor at all....surprised even me....it did make the apartment stink for the first 5 days but after that nothing....let me know if you need a place to stay......ben


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## Guest

*plants*

could you maybe give a more detailed construction overview? and what is that plant in the top right hand corner in the pictures. its an amazing tank.


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## kleinhanz

> what is that plant in the top right hand corner


I would guess that it is a mini orchid...very cool!


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## andersonii85

Ben,

While I was admiring your design I couldn't quite tell exactly what you did to connect the compost tank to the Frog tank. Would you mind clearing this up for me? It looks like you have a tube running from one to the other. 

Also, what monstera species is that in the water reservoir? BTW- Nice anthuriums. 

Justin


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## geckguy

It looks like the microfauna just travel through the tree fern fiber, the hoses I saw are to put air into the compost pile to get rid of some of the CO2.


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## Ben E

the "tanks" is just a single terrarium that is divided with tree fern panels so that the microfauna can go between but the frogs cant. I probably would have designed it differently (with more of the terrarium exposed to the compost) but i ran out of tree fern. I could also see a series of tanks with false tree fern backs all hooked up to a large central compost bin. The ghost ants took up residence in the middle of the tree fern as well. All of the decor in the terrarium are tree fern pieces that are stuck together with the terrarium clay. There is a 1/2" diameter pvc tube that goes under the terrarium side to the compost side so that the water level is the same on both sides, all other cracks are sealed with terrarium clay. The terrarium clay was used to sculpt the water portion as well. There are lots of different plants in there. All were chosen for their relatively small size and slow growth, as the tank matures i will begin pruning and weeding and transplanting to get the shape i want. The plant in the upper right is Masdevallia wendlandiana and is a great warm grower that actually just finished flowering. Also have many small orchids that just kinda blend in with all the other stuff until they eventually throw out some flower spikes. All of the anthuriums started as tissue culture plants that needed to be rescued from contaminated cultures. I think there are about 4 different tiny philo species, begonias, ferns, melastomes....lots of miniature goodness that will soon be overflowing to another tank....

So the only false bottom is on the compost side and that keeps the bottom of the compost from staying too water-logged. The vertical eggcrate on the left side of the compost tank is to keep compost from falling down where i have the tube to my hand mister. The hand mister is just a cheapy from home depot that i ripped apart and stuck airline tubing on and then an airline filter on the end to stop debris from entering the pump. All watering of the tank comes from the resvior below the false bottom. In the forest epiphytes are fed by the decay and life that is stuck to the tree. As it rains the water seeps down through the collected compost and continually "feeds" the epiphytes with this fertilized compost tea. That is what i have attempted to do with the recycled water. So far so good. So in idea at least the decaying half feeds the living half, both the tiny vertebrates and all the plants. This is closer to how nature operates...we cant have life without death and decay. Every day the insect populations seem to increase on the compost side...started it off with about 20 melanogaster and now there is about the equivelance of 15 rocking cultures just cruising throught he rot bin....i can count about 20 flies at all times in the terrarium side and endless springtails and mites....


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## Dunner97074

Any problems with escapee's? Or smell from the compost? How often do you plan to change the water? Looks good and it's an interesting idea. Keep us posted.
Mike


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## Ben E

well i didnt do much escape prevention just banked on the organisms wanting to stay....the flies and ants can come and leave as they please and the only thing i have noticed (mentioned above) is that all of my escaped flies from my other tanks migrate to the compost tank. It is absolutely completely odorless but you have to stick with some simple carbon to nitrogen ratios that are outlined for good odorless composting practices. I plan on never changing the water, that would kinda go against the whole idea of the tank...i may have to add some water once there is some evaporation but the plants are the filter...i have some test kits around and should take some readings, im particularly interested in nitrate.....its all about low-tech, low maintenance, and high living complexity....i do not plan on adding any dusted or supplemented organisms but have been adding some D3 supplement to the compost. The calcium and some bloodmeal/bonemeal dust are the only additions other than kitchen scraps which get covered with dead leaves and decaying wood....


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## geckguy

I really like this setup and was thinking of trying it, how large of a compost area would work for a 55 gallon? Maybe a compost pile on one side, and then have tree fern panel that is set off from the back by an inch or two to provide and even larger area for the compost pile, and spread the insects through the tank even more.


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## Ben E

if i had a 55 to do it in i would probably set up the middle as the terrarium and have compost tanks on either side(i think the tank i used is proabably about 50 gallons but only 36" long and about the depth of a 75 gallon)....i have thought of building one with compost on the back side as well but in a 55 it would end up being too narrow. I strongly encourage you to read up a good deal on composting before you set one up. The book i started with was "Let it Rot!" im sure there is planty of good info on the net as well....i really encourage you to try it though...if this works through future generations of imitators i will start with another tank and maybe try some larger species.....


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## geckguy

I have a compost pile for my garden so I am familiar with the basics. A 55 wasn't my first choice but I got it in brand new condition for $20, I was holding out for the 75 because I love the depth, but I couldn't pass on the 55.
How much of the tank should be devoted to the compost pile?


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## Ben E

well i guess that is a question that i am trying to figure out with this first tank...how much area is needed to support "X" number of frogs....if i would guess i would say 24" in the middle for the terrarium and then a foot on either side for the compost....but this is just speculation (going with the same ratio that is working so far for me)


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## bbrock

Ben,

Sorry, I completely missed this thread until Ben Green gave me a heads up. This is truly an amazing effort. You are zeroing in on the holy grail of viviculture. I really like the concept of using the tree fern fiber to act kind of like an osmotic membrane for the microfauna. Nicely done! The only thing that troubles me is the need for the pumps to displace CO2 from the compost bin. This is not a criticism of the design but only that I've become intolerant of whirring fans and buzzing ballasts and pumps so it has me wondering whether a custom compost chamber could be desing to aerate passively. I think it could. If you designed a chamber with air inlets above the water line but below the bottom of the egg crate that the compost rests on, the heat of the compost should create a chimney effect drawing fresh air up through the compost without the need of forces air.

I'm also wondering if this system could be modularized so that the compost bin could be in a cabinet below, or hidden behind, the vivarium. The key ingredient to your system seems to be the permeable divider that is very porous to the invertebrates but not to the frogs. Connections via tubing or pipe may not provide the level of connectivity needed to allow enough of the compost dweller population to bleed off into the vivarium to sustain the inhabitants.

And finally it there is the obvious question of about the ratios of compost to viv volume that are needed to make the system work. How small can the compost bin be shrunk relative to the viv and still both act as a compost bin and provide a sustainable and sufficient supply of arthropods to the viv. This is a really cool development Ben. I've very excited about this and eager to here any more results. Do you plan to do any formal monitoring of the invert population over time?


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## Ben E

ok i dont have much time so i may have to respond in more detail after i get home from work....I thought about having vertical chimneys of tree fern to act as aeration stations, but my problem was that this viviarium is topped off with solid glass tops...i was a bit worried that there may be the potential of CO2 climbing especially after lights went out....really need to test this to even know if its worth worrying about...but the airpump was just an easy fix for me to let me sleep a little easier at night....my "monitoring" thus far has been very informal just keeping a log of what i see most by scanning the terrarium side....i do plan on recruiting more in the spring to boost my diversity some....also i think ideally it would be nice to have a series of compost bins that you would start up about 3 months apart from each other such that the different stage of decomposition would each hold a slightly different population of inverts and when you got one bin to decompose to soil and filled to the top you could clean it out without the system starving while the two weeks or so it takes to get the pile rocking again....I do like the idea of placing the compost behind a tree fern false wall...for this tank i wanted the visual impact of half decay half life (that and the fact that my materials warranted this design)......the tree fern is pretty key, im sure there are other materials but its all about membranes Brent....


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## bbrock

Ben E said:


> but my problem was that this viviarium is topped off with solid glass tops...i was a bit worried that there may be the potential of CO2 climbing especially after lights went out....really need to test this to even know if its worth worrying about...but the airpump was just an easy fix for me to let me sleep a little easier at night....my "monitoring" thus far has been very informal just keeping a log of what i see most by scanning the terrarium side....


Makes sense and like I said, my comment was not meant as a criticism of the design. I think for an experimental setup you have acheived something near perfection. My thoughts were more along the lines if I were to construct custom chambers and vivaria using this principle, could the pumps be eliminated.



> i do plan on recruiting more in the spring to boost my diversity some....also i think ideally it would be nice to have a series of compost bins that you would start up about 3 months apart from each other such that the different stage of decomposition would each hold a slightly different population of inverts and when you got one bin to decompose to soil and filled to the top you could clean it out without the system starving while the two weeks or so it takes to get the pile rocking again....


I was thinking about something along those lines too. You would expect to see succession within the compost as it matures with a shift in species and relative populations when the compost is at various stages. The 3 bin approach is tried and true in gardening and should work here as well.



> I do like the idea of placing the compost behind a tree fern false wall...for this tank i wanted the visual impact of half decay half life (that and the fact that my materials warranted this design)......the tree fern is pretty key, im sure there are other materials but its all about membranes Brent....


The tree fern panel is brilliant. But it is also what will make this difficult to apply to display vivs. First is the problem of sacrificing display space for the compost. Giving up 5-10 gallons of a 30 gallon viv hurts. Running the panel along the back as a backdrop would be a nice solution (equivalent to the hang on the back filters for aquaria) but access to the bins could be a problem in some cases. Again, I love your design for experimentation and I'm very confident that the long term results are going to be successful. I'm just wondering what future modifications to bring the technique to the masses might be.


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## joshsfrogs

> I'm just wondering what future modifications to bring the technique to the masses might be.


Yah, bring it to the masses!


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## Ben E

ask and you shall recieve  i actually just took the masking tape off of my new compost tank. Built from scratch this afternoon to try a new layout and dimensions....the usable terrarium space is 18"X18" x16" and the compost section is in the back behind a false wall....still need to test dimensions to see if it will work...look for a working prototype at IAD.....pictures to come soon.....ben


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## bbrock

I had another thought on this Ben. When you seed your compost to try to increase diversity, will you screen the "inocculate" to limit the inverts to a maximum size? There are a couple of thoughts going into this question. One is that maintaining persistent populations depends on the ability to sustain a minimum population of each species in the mix. Larger species consume more biomass per capita and therefore are likely to not reach sustainable population sizes. Plus, they will consume enough biomass attempting to increase their own population that they will starve some other species out in the process. So the long term success of this thing seems to depend on supporting a high number of small body-sized critters. I would not add a feral hog to the compost dweller community for example ;-)


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## Jace King

Is that plant an phildendron Ende Wimbe from black jungle. I got one of those and it looks identical. Of course i could be off because its hard to figure how big it is. 

Edit wups i posted that before i saw the 2 more pages, sorry if i was wrong or it was already answered.


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## Marty

Ben, this is a very very cool and innovative idea :idea: . I am loving this....hm.....this .... "COMPOSTARIUM"! I can't believe I didn't see that post before. 

I dub thee the compostarium musta ! :wink:


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## Guest

Update time again, Ben...those plants must be filling in quite nicely since a couple weeks ago.


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## Guest

Definitly is time for some more pics.  

Also how is the feeding going? Have you had to add any other food sources yet? Hows the micro fauna look also?

Edit: How do the frogs look also?


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## Ben E

hey guys...i have been on vacation the past week in the keys and had the tanks on auto pilot...all turned out just fine....the tank is still cranking and i have since built a completely new compost tank with new dimensions that is growing plants and microfauna as we speak...no frogs in it yet, i may try a pair of tincs for something different in this one...i have not added any supplemental food and microfauna is still cranking....my problem now is that on my vaction my backpack was stolen that had my digital camera in it...along with my cell phone, car keys, bla blah blah....so anyway i should have a new camera by the end of the week so look start of next week for update pics....here are a few "old" pics of the new set-up




























this tank i built from the glass up with new dimensions and the compost hidden behind the back...frogs to be added this week....ben


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## Guest

Sorry to hear about the thiefs. But the tank looks awsome in those pics hope to see the new pics soon


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## mydumname

I may have missed this, or just too lazy to read the whole thing right now, but how do the bugs get to the tank side? Is their a screened off opening? 

Thanks


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## Guest

The tree fern panel act like a screen.


I forgot to ask what size did you build the new tank?

I still think this is a brillent idea. Even it only adds some of the supplimental food.


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## Ben E

the dimensions are roughly....an 18" cube for the usable terrarium and then about 7" behind the terrarium is compost....roughly 1/3 compost to terrarium...


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## dmartin72

Ben,

I really like the look of the new tank with the compost bin in the back! What a great concept! Is that a 96watt quad that I see on top? That light is awesome; two fans and a heat sheild to boot, very nice. Do you have the 6700k bulb?

I feel for you on the stolen camera...mine never resurfaced at the store in Hawaii where I left it and I know that the lady employee is enjoying it right now! Hey lady, take a picture of this! :x On the bright side, I went out and purchased the Canon Digital Rebel with some nice lenses.


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## Marty

Yup, you're too lazy ! :lol: 



mydumname said:


> I may have missed this, or just too lazy to read the whole thing right now, but how do the bugs get to the tank side? Is their a screened off opening?
> 
> Thanks


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## Guest

WOW :shock: :shock: :shock: I can only HOPE my vivarium will look like yours some day. Those are some AWESOME pictures!!!!

Roger


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## mydumname

Marty, you were right, but I think I am going to read this whole post today or sometime soon.


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## yuri

*how important are the ants?*

Hey Ben,

This is the most exciting thing frog-wise for a long time! Thanks for sharing and updating us.

How important is the ant colony in your opinion (as a food source, as one of the entities in breaking down organic matter, etc.) . The reason I ask, is that I am itchin' to try and replicate this, but I don't have access to the ants you have in there and am not sure if this can fly without them.

Thanks, Yuri


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## Dane

In a setup like that, I would worry that the ants could reach numbers that they could become a threat to the frogs. Is this a possible problem?


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## Guest

Ben do the flies actually pass through the tree fern very often??

If your answer is yes how can you control the feeding?


The idea is great and the tank looks amazing

Good job :wink: 

Xavier


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## Ben E

ok to answer a few of the questions here, i dont think the ant colony is instrumental at all and i see other arthropods climbing around much more often than the ants....i am not worried about the ants taking over, because this species is not very aggressive and seems to like the fruit the best, but time will tell...it would be interesting to see a switch from top predator of frog to ant colony.....the fruit flies can migrate through the tree fern whenever they want but there is no real food source for them over there so i would say that at any given time there are about 10-30 flies in with the frogs which pales in comparison to springtales and mites....control the feeding? not worried about it, my joy in building this and watching it grow is lack of control...ebb and flow of arthropod densities and ratios is the beauty of it...im not worrying about keeping all the frogs in check or cranking lots of babies....just want to sit back and see what happens....new camera coming tomorrow, so probably update pics then...thanks for the continued interest....ben


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## Guest

> control the feeding? not worried about it, my joy in building this and watching it grow is lack of control...ebb and flow of arthropod densities and ratios is the beauty of it...im not worrying about keeping all the frogs in check or cranking lots of babies....just want to sit back and see what happens....


Exactly. Thank you. 

Looking forward to more updates and pics.


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## yuri

Ben,

What would you think of two corner compost sections. I have a couple of empty 20 gallon tall tanks and have been contemplating doing what you have done on a smaller scale. I was thinking that I could make two triangular compost sections in either back corner of the 20 gallon tall.

Do you think there is a threshhold of compost volume : vivarium volume to make this successful? If so, what ratio would work? What is the ratio of your unit?

Thanks again for the inspiration.

Yuri


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## Ben E

hey Yuri, i see no reason why that would not work, i think that actually a better design than mine would have two or even three seperate compost piles with different compositions or even different ages of decay....the last tank i built has about 1/3 compost ta tank by volume and i just added the frogs to that tank. I chose these frogs fora different reason, they are big tincts that have just reached sexual maturity. I weighed them and will continue to weigh them on a weekly basis to monitor what is happening with them. The male was like 5.5 grams and the female was nearly 6.5 grams. Here are a few update pics...


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## bbrock

Ben E said:


> The male was like 5.5 grams and the female was nearly 6.5 grams. Here are a few update pics...


Ah jeez, you scared the crap out of me! I thought you were still talking about imitator until I looked at the pictures. Whew! I thought you imitators had mutated into freakish giants.


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## jbates

Ben, those are some stunning tanks. I may have to try that with my imitators. 

Out of curiosity, do you have any pumps or drip walls in tank for water circulation? Also, the plants in the tinc tank appear to be planted on a flat surface suspended above the water on the bottom. How did you do that?

Thank very much,
John


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## Ben E

no pumps yet...i think i will add a reciculating misting system to the tinc tank to make it "fancy" . the imitator tank is just recycled water by hand misting...the plant that you are looking at is actually sitting in the water in a clump of its own substrate. It is a new world tropical utricularia...they like it soppy....ben


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## jbates

Thanks very much for your prompt reply, Ben. 

I'm very curious about your plant mix in the tinc tank; I really like the moss-like plants you have. Would you mind telling us what species they are? Also, can you recommend a source for them?

Thanks again!
-John


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## Blort

Ben E said:


> there is no concrete it is all a special blend of clays and soil that i used to make the water feature and to seal off all cracks where the frogs could get through...the clay is quite awesome and i have created a number of water features in other tanks with it....


Ben,

Can you shed some light as to what you are using as your clay and soil mixture both in this project and in your tadpole rearing project? Composition, point of origin, process, etc. I think these alternatives to some of the standard plastics used to make vivariums are great!

Also, just wondering if you had considered pursuing some small research grants for what you are doing to offset the cost, it all seems very unique and creative. My local herp club accepts applicants for small grants, and the first thing that came to mind were your projects.

Thanks,

Marcos


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## Guest

*clay*

i really want to find out about the clay aswell.


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## Guest

So do you just siphon out some of the water in the bottom...put it in the spray bottle...and then spray? Or do you have something more 'advanced' in place?


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## Guest

It's been alittle while and was wondering how the setups are doing? Also would love more pics if you get the chance.


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## JFarlin

updates please!!!!


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## Ben E

Ok here are a few shots...had to remove the tincs from the new compost tank...they didnt look happy in there, not quite the right set-up for them, they kept climbing the glass and just didnt settle in, so i am thinking of another species to try....anyway here are a few consecutive shots of the tank






































random shot of another terrarium


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## Guest

Very nice


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## andersonii85

Hey Ben,

In the last photo that you added of a random vivarium- what is that flat looking creeping plant that is above the wood (almost in the center of the photo)? I have this plant, but have had a hard time finding a name for it. BTW- looks awesome!

Best,

Justin


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## Ben E

hey...pretty sure it is a marcgravia but not sure what species..


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## Frog723

Firstly, Ben this is an amazing tank and idea. I think I might consider doing something similar. I was thinking of doing a vivarium with a large water section and live plants in the watter. I'm wondering if there would be a way to divert some of the CO2 into the water to feed those plants? Just an idea I had after reading through the posts. This would help take care of the problem of CO2 build up I would imagine.


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## Ben E

Well the water would probably take up a good amount of CO2 on its own...the time when i was really worried was at night when the lights go out, because the plants are not active....aquatic plants would not be of any help unless there were in a seperate adjoined enclosure on a reverse light cycle....i dont think that aquatic plants use any more CO2 than terrestrial plants (i actually think its probably the other way around) its just that it is somewhat a limiting factor in a traditional aquarium set-up, hence the addition by the hobbyist....


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## Guest

This thread is too amazing to be forgoten! Do you have any updated pics for us Ben? How's that smaller cube tank you designed doing? Still working on a prototype of your mulch system to start selling? Hope to hear from you soon! Peace,
-David


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## devin mac

i just stumbled on this thread. and wow...

i was wondering what kind of frog activity you've noticed so far in the first tank. are they old enough to be breeding yet? any word on that?


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## neilr

Is there anyway we could get an update on this project? 

Neil


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## devin mac

just bumping this thread because it is possibly one of the single neatest things i've ever seen on this board. ;-)

also curious about a.) how the imitators are doing in the bigger tank, and b.) what the custom tank looks like now. curious about the dimensions of the one you built, also.


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## MJ

wooohooo way to bump! this thing rocks!!! I would love to see how it looks now


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## CTM75

*Amazing...*

Like others before me I accidentally wondered upon this thread. *I am totally in awe* of this. These are easily the best vivariums (IMHO) on this board. (Not to mention the forethought and planning.) Please send this to the top so anyone who hasn't had the honor may share this. Ben, kudos. The idea of this enriched clay paste really has me thinking. Any updates? Thanks, CTM


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## _Enix_

updates? please! ^^


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## Guest

Someone asked earlier about where you got your smaller species of plants from, IE the mosslike smaller ones. I was interested in this too. 

Oh yea;
bump.


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## joshuatree

Please update your throngs of fans!


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## joshuatree

Does anyone know if Ben is still on these forums? If so let us know what is going on with these tanks! Self-contained sustainability makes me cry a single small tear it's so beautiful!


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## Darryl

*joshuatree* wrote:



> Self-contained sustainability makes me cry a single small tear it's so beautiful!


I think this is as close as we will get to have a peice of the jungle in our homes.


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## joshuatree

I totally agree, that's why I'm so rabid about seeing its long term sustainability! Maybe Ben's frogs did well....maybe too well.....there are some 6' tall frogs running around with a Ben-shaped bulge in their guts....or he just hasn't posted in a while
I give it 50/50 chance of either.


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## Darryl

Ben,
Any updates on your vivs and what new photos and insights do you have on yours systems.


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## neilr

This has got to be one of my favorite threads. I think it should be bumped every once in a while for anyone who has not seen it. I am also hoping the owner of the tanks might make an update some day (anyone know this guy?).

Neil


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## Frank H

Whats this tank look like today? 
How is the compost smelling?

Why is this not a sticky?

Awesome set-up, Ben!

Frank


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## Dancing frogs

Yeah...
Update please!


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## Derailz

This is really amazing, I am wondering what happened to the tanks now and what they looked like. Post some new pics please


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## zBrinks

Update please!


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## stchupa

I hope it didn't fail. But I and eveyone else really really wants to see progress if any.


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## spydrmn12285

this thread is amazing, just thought I'd bump it up since it's past due for an update. Anyone have any experience with these types of vivariums?


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## daemonfly

Per his profile, Ben_E hasn't posted anything on these forums since Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:08 pm. 

I just stumbled onto this thread as well & read the whole thing. Very interesting.


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## yuri

I hope Ben chimes in at some point, but on frognet.org's email list (you can read their archives to find this out), Ben explains that he had to dismantle the tank due to a move.

Quote:
"I had two refugia tanks growing, and the first one that was photographed worked the best. I had to dismantle this tank when i moved from atlanta but was growing strong at this point and the imitators were starting to reproduce. I have no refugia tanks growing at the moment but have some new tanks that i am running supplementary CO2 (about 1200 ppm). I am getting ready to move again but will hopefully have a more permanant location to set up some new tanks. I have some new shapes and configurations and medias to try. YOu would think that there would be less maintenance involved in a refugia tank but i found that instead of putting energy into food cultures i was constantly tweaking my compost mixes. (my interest was not neccessarily 
in saving labor however) If someone was interested in trying it i would 
advise to use interchangeable chambers instead of one big chamber that will eventually need to be cleaned out. Thanks for the interest. Ben"


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## yuri

If you all have not made your way to this incredible tangent of the internet, I advise you to make sure your have Flash installed and head over to:

http://www.variancedesign.com/

I think Ben is still involved with this amazing group. For those that have attended the last few IADs, they have been vendors there. These pieces are in my opinion some of the most interesting, innovative and technologically advanced artificial habitats out there.

I am playing the lottery so I can fill the hoouse with some of these.


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## Ben E

thanks so much for the kind words yuri....i have not been on the forum much in the past year or so but i will hopefully have a few tanks worthy of showing in the next couple months. I am still working with zac and the variance team and we are finishing up some insect terrariums for the san diego zoo. i cant believe this topic still continues to surface after all this time! Makes me want to put one together right now! thanks everyone for the continued interest, and hopefully will have a few things to show at IAD again!....ben


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## devin mac

Wow, he's alive ;-)

I think i speak for many of us when i ask if the tank this thread mostly centered around is still up and running, and how it turned out, whether it supported the inhabitants, etc?

as said before, very nice.


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## Guest

> I think i speak for many of us when i ask if the tank this thread mostly centered around is still up and running, and how it turned out, whether it supported the inhabitants, etc?





> "I had two refugia tanks growing, and the first one that was photographed worked the best. I had to dismantle this tank when i moved from atlanta but was growing strong at this point and the imitators were starting to reproduce. I have no refugia tanks growing at the moment but have some new tanks that i am running supplementary CO2 (about 1200 ppm). I am getting ready to move again but will hopefully have a more permanant location to set up some new tanks."


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## devin mac

well, that'll teach me to pay attention, now won't it?


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## tyler

Is it possible to get an update on how the new setups are doing?


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## jbeetle

If you read the previous posts you will see that this tank has been dismantled awhile ago.


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## tyler

Ben E said:


> thanks so much for the kind words yuri....i have not been on the forum much in the past year or so but i will hopefully have a few tanks worthy of showing in the next couple months. I am still working with zac and the variance team and we are finishing up some insect terrariums for the san diego zoo. i cant believe this topic still continues to surface after all this time! Makes me want to put one together right now! thanks everyone for the continued interest, and hopefully will have a few things to show at IAD again!....ben


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## Mywebbedtoes

I don't know that Ben has anything to update on this thread, but for those who have not read this, I think this is one of the most thought provoking threads on the whole board. Innovation should be applauded and encouraged. This is simply amazing and I hope it inspires new levels of design and function in us all. Well done Ben!


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## tzen

Tree fern is an organic product that will eventually decompose as well... How long does that take in the tropical viv like this? 5 years? 10 years?

For those that have used epiweb, would it allow FF and other artropod dispersion as well?

Ben mentioned he really recommended having removable containers for the compost. Any ideas for that? I can invision 1/4 inch screen baskets.


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## Mywebbedtoes

tzen said:


> Tree fern is an organic product that will eventually decompose as well...


I would imagine sometime, after 5 years the tank might need an overhall anyway.



> For those that have used epiweb, would it allow FF and other artropod dispersion as well?


I would say yes, given the fact it is designed to allow roots to easily push through. Although is it rigid like tree fern? It might require bracing.



> Ben mentioned he really recommended having removable containers for the compost. Any ideas for that? I can invision 1/4 inch screen baskets.


Yeah I think a basket would work, or an acrylic box with one side mesh (facing the back wall of the vivarium) that could be lifeted out for maintenance. I really like this idea. Maybe on a large scale it would be difficult for an average frogger, but on a smaller scale it might be a great way to lessen the amount of feeders added. It certainly would make vacations easier. I also like the idea of increased CO2 for plant gowth.


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## markbudde

This is the coolest thread ever! 3years old. I think I will post a summary of what has been learned so far from here and frognet discussions of self sustaining vivs.


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## Mywebbedtoes

markbudde said:


> This is the coolest thread ever! 3years old. I think I will post a summary of what has been learned so far from here and frognet discussions of self sustaining vivs.


Good job Mark!
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35619

Facinating topic.


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## Dryn

I've stumbled onto this thread from another thread, and wow. I'm new to the PDF hobby, but I have been keeping planted aquariums for 18 years, and I am a huge advocate of innovation and the expiramentation of ideas. We all know that self-contained mini-ecosystems are improbable, but this really comes close. I've always advocated the use of refugia for planted aquariums (usually with reverse day cycles) to keep up the microfauna and usually carrying fast-growing plants to use up excess nutrients, even though most fresh water hobbyist don't employ them. This thread is right up my ally, and I think I will research this top more... Thanks to Ben E.


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## mallende

Guys, I also just stumbled upon this topic. Amazing concept, soo simple and ingenious at the same time. Funny thing is that this is exactly what we are surrounded by on a daily basis, i mean this is nature, a full circle of life and death just like any forest or ocean. After thinking about this, my question is..."do the frogs become less tame?"

My thinking is that as we all have noticed that our frogs at first were very timid, and then with time movement of the lid meant food, and slowly our frogs began to asimilate movement/activity/sounds/time of day with food and began to come out when it was feeding time....now with BenE's concept of self-sustaining vivs do the frogs just not assimilate us with food and revert to wild behavior? do they hop in to the dark when they see movement? are the frogs responsive to movement at all or do they also become used to it?

Just a thought
-M


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## moore40

My question is has anyone else tried this? I also don't think this topic should be only devoted to just ben's composterium, but to the dicussion and advancement of this idea. So if anyone has or if the master of this type of viverium has come up with one they should post it, please.


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## rutledgek

I just wanted to point out the benefits for the plants of using the drainage from the compost side to mist the plants. If you ever listen to Mike McGrath from you bet your garden, he always suggests using "compost tea" to feed the plants. Essentially you take some compost and steep it in water, and then spray it on the plants you wish to feed. This also has the benefit of providing some insect protection for the plants. By using compost seepage water, he made compost tea and fed it to his plants.


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## Mywebbedtoes

rutledgek said:


> If you ever listen to Mike McGrath from you bet your garden, he always suggests using "compost tea" to feed the plants.


I always wanted to listen to that, bu it is on at 5 in the morning here.


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## moore40

Just wanted to bump this so others can still read about it.


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## Dragas

Polypropylene, commonly found in self-sealing containers, like Tupperware, is accepted by very few curbside recycling programs due to its very low rate of *recyclability.* Check the Earth 911 website to see if your municipal recycling center accepts number 5's.


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## chinoanoah

bump, so that others can see this.


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## global_viv

*A thought...*

Hey Ben, just thought I would start by saying that your ideas and innovations are nothing less than inspiring. Keep it up!

Also, I had a thought for solving the problems of using the composting method in a display viv and the decomposition of the tree fern: do you think it would be plausible to boil the tree fern to soften it and curl it into a semicircle, and then attach it to the side of the aquarium to simulate a large tree trunk? And then to use a creeping fig or similar plant to partially encase the tree fern? This would give an interesting look, as well as serving to help contain the compost, since creeping fig is accustomed to growing around rotting plant matter.

Anyway, let me know what your thoughts are.


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## azure89

Cool idea I wonder if it will catch on


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## Okapi

Stayed up way too late using the search feature and found this. Bumping it up to the front page.


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## poet2dagger

Totally awesome thread!


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## jacobi

Just found this. Fascinating. Bump, so people who haven't seen it yet get a chance to read it.

Jake


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## vietropicale

I bump it too!


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## andersonii85

I'm looking to put together a setup similar to Ben's for my classroom. I have a 300 gallon aquarium that was donated to the school for this purpose. My question is- is anyone else working with this "composterium" design and have had it setup over the long term? Id like to pick your brain. Thank you


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## cam1941

Does anyone still have one of these set up? Really cool idea...


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## Deltagraphic

Wow! I just came accross this and plan to try my hand at a setup like this for my next viv. I have unknowingly been doing something kind of similar in my 18x18x24. I have a clay background with a hollow stump made from large curved sections of cork bark and live oak branches as roots. It is roughly divided inside with sections of rotting wood taken from a real stump to increase the surface area. For the past few months I have been putting the fruit/veggie scraps I feed my inverts into the stump after they start to get unsightly. The tank is teeming with microfauna and I suspect thats where many of them are living/breeding. After reading this thread, im planning to build a more intentional version of this compost stump and work that into my new set up. If it proves successful I will start a build thread for the stump.


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