# Lamasi Morphs



## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I feel like there is quite a bit of confusion regarding the lamasi (yeah yeah, sirensis) morphs in the hobby. Mainly between the old line Panguana and the orange Panguana.

Old Line Panguana - 

*pics to come at a later date*

Green Legged Lamasi - Also a morph from Panguana. The green on the legs here is represented well.










Orange Panguana Lamasi - These guys are orange. 










Green Lamasi - These are the frogs that Understory introduced. You can see the Green body and not the yellow or orange like on the above.










Highland/Standard Lamasi - Sorry for the glare











Hope this clears up some confusion that is out there.


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

This thread has sticky written all over it.

Casper


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

If that was to happen, I could get some replacement photos and some clearer shots if I would be allowed to edit it. I saw there were past threads on this, but I didn't see photos to really clear it up. I could try for some better pics this weekend.


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

I think some of the confusion comes from people using old line to separate all of the Panguana morphs from the new ones that UE is working with. 

On another related note, I've seen some orange sirensis listed in the classifieds as UE line. Does anyone know if Understory is working with these?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I had to go on a search for the panguana and green leg. The majority of the responses to my wanted ads were for panguana orange. I believe the confusion is that the old line panguana and the green leg seemed to have faded from the hobby a bit, and everyone now knows panguana orange as the panguana lamasi. The other responses were for empty leads.

To my knowledge the only one UE is working with is the Green. I believe someone specifically asked them what other lamasi and they said just the one, I also have never seen any others on the price lists.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I believe you may be incorrect about the Understory Green Lamasi, being a Panguana morph.
I just lifted this from the Understory site. Note that it is in direct reference to the Understory Green Lamasi. Also note Mark, referring to, "their Panguana counterparts".

(from Understory website)
_Ranitomeya lamasi “Green” RL-RUCTMA
These lamasi are from the northern extreme of lamasi’s range. They are noticeably larger than their “Panguanna” counterparts._

edit: Oh yes, I believe Mark may still have some future surprises for us. Here is another quote from the Understory website.
_Several of the lowland or Panguana forms are currently present in the hobby. *We hope to introduce several new phenotypes into the hobby over the next few years*._


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

In my time on here, I've never seen the green leg or the Panguanas in a sale ad here. I'm working with the oranges, and it seems even those are on a downswing lately. 

I thought UE only had the greens, so I was confused when I saw the ad for the UE line oranges.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Spaff said:


> In my time on here, I've never seen the green leg or the Panguanas in a sale ad here. I'm working with the oranges, and it seems even those are on a downswing lately.
> 
> I thought UE only had the greens, so I was confused when I saw the ad for the UE line oranges.


To the best of my knowledge, Understory has only released the Green. It sure sounds like he is working with some other Panguana morphs, though.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I was of the understanding these were Panguana type too, found at a more northern location. 

Note a quote form another forum:

"Pictures from Christmann's 'Poison Frogs' volume two, page 148.

"-and the well-known, most northerly 'Panguana type' ("F")- a greenish variety; with light-colored markings where the extremeties leave the body;"
"

Understory's site also says:

"Widespread throughout east-central and reaching into Southern Peru, lamasi is locally abundant when in suitable habitat. Though the frog is predominantly a denizen of low elevation forests, at least two populations have been historically found above 600 meters, those around Tingo Maria and the Sierra de Divisoria. These two aforementioned populations have seemingly disappeared. Frequent visits to historically known sites by ourselves and colleagues, J. Brown, E. Twomey, J. Yeager throughout the past 4 years have turned up only one juvenile specimen. These frogs are present in the hobby and known as the nominal and highland lamasi. 

Throughout the lowlands of the region known as the Panguana many phenotypes of this frog exist. They primarily breed amongst the phytolemata offered by terrestrial growing plants, frequently utilizing the leaf sheaths of Heliconia and Xanthasomas. 

Several of the lowland or Panguana forms are currently present in the hobby. We hope to introduce several new phenotypes into the hobby over the next few years. "

I personally read that to mean the standards are not Panguana but the others are, including this green. Maybe an email to them is in order (I just sent one).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mydumname said:


> "
> 
> Understory's site also says:
> 
> ...


Yes, it does say that, but that is in reference to Lamasi in general, while the quote I found is specific enough to include Mark's code for his Green Lamasi, "RL-RUCTMA"


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I will post the email response when I receive it. You may be right. I found other documentation from other forums referencing it as Panguana (as quoted above) and I thought I had heard it somewhere else to. Could be wrong, but the source should be able to set it straight.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sounds good Greg, thanks.


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## dartsanddragons (Jun 6, 2004)

I asked Elaine from UE about this when I saw the ad, her response was very clear" Understory has never worked with the Orange Lamasi"

Scott


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

The Green sirensis are not a Panguana morph, they are much larger and come from the Lower Ucayali.

http://www.dendrobates.org/sirensis.html


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I am trying to have the sentence removed. Would be so much easier if I could do it myself but for some reason.we have time limits.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

The original Penguana morph, imported in the 90's consisted of animals with mostly greenish to lavender/purple body stripes. Todd Kelly was the only one I knew that had that morph going, perhaps some after that bought offspring from him.


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## OSU (Nov 10, 2008)

I agree with Mark the old line pan lamasi looked very different from the pictures in the original posts


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I have no knowledge of that line. The pics above are of the panguana Lamasi still around that phil tan used to.offer. Are you saying they aren't panguana? I did not interpret mark to be saying these are.not panguana rather he was informing of another type of Lamasi that may or may.not be around still.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I've never heard of the one's Mark is talking about. When I got into the hobby back in 2007 Green legs and standard Panguanas were everywhere. Definitely one of the more commonly bred frogs. This is just one more situation in which the gene pool of one of the hobbies frogs is going to be compromised by boom and bust cycles.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

It was actually a challenge to find mine this year. Fortunately mine came from someone who was long term in.the hobby so.hopefully that means slightly closer to one of the earlier f generations. They are nicer looking then I remember too. Guessing the high numbers combined with the shyer nature led to them becoming not so popular. I am thinking it will be happening to the orange soon. I have seen a lot of people selling there breeders this year. And the price has gotten quite low on them.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

If people didn't try and breed their frogs as much as possible, the hobby would be a lot better off IMHO. With sirensis, the key to that would be not pulling eggs or tadpoles, and giving your frogs some down cycles.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I'm pulling all but the orange right now to.get my second groups established. But yes that would have helped I'm sure. Years ago I paid $100 each for the green legged...2005 I believe. When was it they were hard to.give away....2010-2011?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

mydumname said:


> I'm pulling all but the orange right now to.get my second groups established. But yes that would have helped I'm sure. Years ago I paid $100 each for the green legged...2005 I believe. When was it they were hard to.give away....2010-2011?


They were $40 each in 08-09 and didn't sell at the shows at all. I remember some guys up here had up to 10 sexed pairs for $100 each at some of the shows.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Oh wow, longer back then I thought. I was at shows in 2008 and am just not picturing seeing them, that is why I thought it may have been later. (the Massachusetts Frog show, forget the name).

I have the response from Mark in my email, just awaiting permission to copy what he wrote into this thread. Quick version, the UE greens are NOT from the Panguana regions. Lot's of other detail to come!

I wonder what that other book is really referring to then? I don't have the book to look it up myself.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

panguanas come in a myriad of colors. Red, orange, yellow/gold, GREEN etc....However, the greens from UE are not from Panguana, and are more closely associated with the highland form from what I understand


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Here it is (the space issues is from copying pasting to here):

"The green lamasi(sirensis) we offer should not be considered a"Panguana lamasi" The green lamasi/sirensis are found well removedfrom the "panguana" and hail from the Ucayali up in Loreto. I don'tbelieve there exists a northern extension of their range much beyondthese, but again, in Peru, with Ranitomeya, it seems almost anythingis possible.

I think it is important to understand what the Panguana actuallyrefers to. To, me Panguana is used in reference to a moderate expanseof lowland forests in central Peru bound nicely by the Cordillera deSira to the east and the Rio Pachitea to the west. Some old maps Ibelieve have referenced a village of Panguana as well, I have not seenthis denotation recently, and it is not a village I am personallyfamiliar with. In these lowlands sirensis are distributed throughout.There are many subtle to extreme variations found between the variouspopulations of these frogs. Most are generally a creamy to yellowstriped frog with limbs either grey white green or blue. AroundPuerto Inca there is at least one area where you find a highlypolymorphic population with the striped ranging from a greenish yellowto yellow to orange to red, with the limbs ranging from greenish greyto blue to white. in this particular area, where the orange lamasithe hobby currently has - were taken from initially, the predominantform seemed to be the soft orange ones, the yellow ones less common,and the truly red ones, quite rare. Again, a high degree ofpolymorphism has been seen in the Sira itself at at least one site-See Brown et 2011 for a much more detailed look into this. 

To further confuse matters, well outside of the Panguana region, andin nearly every direction you can find populations of sirensis whichlook nearly identical to what the hobby would recognize as Panguanalamasi. For this reason it is probably best to be conservative IMOwhen maintaining the old lines of "Panguana" type frogs Hopefullyhobbyists can maintain these lines and not let them fall through thecracks. Regardless of where they may hail from they are interestingfrogs and have some history to them and it would be a shame to seethem disappear. 

Interestingly in November, while looking at altamazonica and pepperidistribution along the Huallaga we stumbled upon a small population ofsirensis in a tiny forest fragment further down the Huallaga then Iwould have ever expected. Superficially it looked just lika a"panguana" frog."


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