# Is this ok



## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

would powdered Bentonite and a little peat moss sphagnum moss and coco fiber be a good clay background for vittatus leucs and tincs because finding the right kitty litter is so confusing


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## verybadcow (Aug 6, 2010)

Finding the right litter for a clay background isnt that confusing at all if you just think about all the information out there as a whole.

There are some clays out there that are better than others to use.

What people decide to use as clay varies because some clay is easier and cheaper to get than others. However, using any type of clay seems to be more beneficial over GS.

Everyone seems to have their own preference when it comes to mixing what into the clay, looks like it comes down to personal preference and what ingredients list they came across on the board.

Out of all the threads I read before trying my own clay background, it turned out that I used the clay I could find closest to me (petco) and I used what ingredients I had on hand (organic potting soil, coco fiber, peat, spag moss, jungle mix). So far everything seems to be working out great.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

i would think so...


off topic**

i hope all of those aren't going in the same tank 


man, beaten by 20 seconds...lol


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

leuc11 said:


> would powdered Bentonite and a little peat moss sphagnum moss and coco fiber be a good clay background for vittatus leucs and tincs because finding the right kitty litter is so confusing


Definitely it would. Kitty litter is primarily bentonite! In the powdered form you just don't have to worry about any contaminants and also it is way easier to work with. You do need to add a lot more than just a little peat, sphagnum, and coco fiber. I believe you need a minimum of 50% organics or your clay will break down with moisture. Many threads talk about adding enough organics to color the gray mix more of a brown color. I found that takes about 2/3 organics and 1/3 powdered bentonite.
Doug


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

boabab95 said:


> i would think so...
> 
> 
> off topic**
> ...


I'm not putting them all in the same cage I'm gonna have rack of eight 20 highs and I'm probably gonna go with the powdered bentonite


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Where are you getting this powdered bentonite from?


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

chinoanoah said:


> Where are you getting this powdered bentonite from?


My dads actually getting it from the collage he works at they have a art room with allot of different clay so hes gonna get some for me there otherwise I would order it or buy it from a pottery shop from what I hear


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Definitely it would. Kitty litter is primarily bentonite! In the powdered form you just don't have to worry about any contaminants and also it is way easier to work with. You do need to add a lot more than just a little peat, sphagnum, and coco fiber. I believe you need a minimum of 50% organics or your clay will break down with moisture. Many threads talk about adding enough organics to color the gray mix more of a brown color. I found that takes about 2/3 organics and 1/3 powdered bentonite.
> Doug


I would actually be concerned that adding more than 50% organics is going to result in an unstable wall over time. The organics are going to decompose resulting in voids in the clay weakening its structure. I'm not sure why people have been moving towards so much organic material dissolved in the clay... I've had some systems up and running for a number of years now and the several that have clay backgrounds do not have more than 50% organics.. I don't even use more than that in the top layer of the substrate as the idea is to allow for calcium mobility of the clay into the inverts and the frogs and moving to that much organics is going to reduce prevent that from happening... 

Kitty litter isn't going to give the best results as 
1) it is very coarse so it is difficult to get a good mixture
2) the litter can have variations in behavior both between and within batches and/or brands. 
3) variations in formulation can occur based on what is cheaper. 

None of the above is conducive to giving a consistent result (as seen by the continual shifting to different brands of kitty litter).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I would actually be concerned that adding more than 50% organics is going to result in an unstable wall over time. The organics are going to decompose resulting in voids in the clay weakening its structure. I'm not sure why people have been moving towards so much organic material dissolved in the clay... I've had some systems up and running for a number of years now and the several that have clay backgrounds do not have more than 50% organics.. I don't even use more than that in the top layer of the substrate as the idea is to allow for calcium mobility of the clay into the inverts and the frogs and moving to that much organics is going to reduce prevent that from happening...
> 
> Kitty litter isn't going to give the best results as
> 1) it is very coarse so it is difficult to get a good mixture
> ...


Hey Ed, I went with a lot of organics on mine based on a couple of things. One was that I've talked to a couple of people that made clay walls with little to no organics that said they broke down very quickly. Two was because so many people say to mix in enough organics to turn the clay more of a brown color.

Now, of course, you've got me worried. May I ask how you mix your background clay? I know you've worked some with Redart but that was unavailable at my pottery supply shop. Is powdered Sodium Bentonite an OK choice with less organics mixed in? What organics do you use or are you advising a pure clay background? If you do use organics, what percentage would you advise?
Thanks,
Doug


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

for my clay background I think Im gonna do 50% powdered bentonite 40-50% organic potting soil three or four handfulls of peat a handfull of spagnum and handfull or two of coco fiber and a little extra bentonite if needed would this a good clay background mixture for darts


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Leuc11, it seems as though you are looking for a definitive yes or no answer to your question. That may be hard to come by as this hobby is not an exact science. It does however seem as though some have had success with a 50/50 mixture of clay and organics(like you are thinking about) and some suggest using more clay. Go with what you think will work and see how it turns out, who knows your mixture just might end up being the best one out there. Just be sure to let us know how it turns out.


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

randommind said:


> Leuc11, it seems as though you are looking for a definitive yes or no answer to your question. That may be hard to come by as this hobby is not an exact science. It does however seem as though some have had success with a 50/50 mixture of clay and organics(like you are thinking about) and some suggest using more clay. Go with what you think will work and see how it turns out, who knows your mixture just might end up being the best one out there. Just be sure to let us know how it turns out.


I'm thinking about doing more clay then organic potting soil I got the clay today but not the soil and such I still need that and the terrarium, I'm trying to figure this out ahead of time so that when it comes time I know exactly what to do i'm one one of those think ahead people with these kind of things


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Hey Ed, I went with a lot of organics on mine based on a couple of things. One was that I've talked to a couple of people that made clay walls with little to no organics that said they broke down very quickly. Two was because so many people say to mix in enough organics to turn the clay more of a brown color.
> 
> Now, of course, you've got me worried. May I ask how you mix your background clay? I know you've worked some with Redart but that was unavailable at my pottery supply shop. Is powdered Sodium Bentonite an OK choice with less organics mixed in? What organics do you use or are you advising a pure clay background? If you do use organics, what percentage would you advise?
> Thanks,
> Doug


Hi Doug,

My first drip wall was based totally on bentonite and peat moss. If you read through the posts, I moved past that simple mixture to one that is about 75/25 red art to bentonite mixture. Then depending on where that mixture is used in the tank, I may add organics to it. To more closely simulate soil layers, I place a layer of unamended clay down first and then a layer mixed with organics. Drip walls have about 75/25 clay/organic mixtures. 
Most of the clay backgrounds that have failed are probably due to too much water and too little time to set. The microbial fauna is a good part of the glue which holds them together and most are not allowed to get established. 
Have you read throught this thread? http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/59903-clay-fail.html 

If I get a chance I'll try to get some pictures in some of the set-ups where the smaller organics have decomposed leaving voids in the substrate. 

When I make a batch of clay, I use a large drill and a paint mixer. It is way easier to mix clay when you mix it as a wet slurry (about as thick as a thin milkshake), this also allows for good hydration of the clay and organics. Once it is mixed, I then filter it using a large aquarium screen (the sides work great to keep the clay from overflowing) lined with a couple of sheets of news paper. I place the screen over a rubbermaid (to catch the water) and then allow it to drain overnight (or until it hits the consistency I want). I then turn it over, remove the newspaper (not really necessary if you just want to cut a square to lay down as a substrate), and the push it through the screen. This helps to get particle formation started, and I repeat it twice and then allow the clay to dry (If I'm using it for a substrate). If I'm using it for a background, I'll just use a small scraper and trowel it onto the background and let it set up. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Red art clay is just one of a number of clays that are similar and can be used. If you took a art class in high school, and worked with clay, it is probably the red clay (or one very similar) to that one. 
If you are willing to order it, it can be purchased here Redart Clay - Clay, Kilns, Pottery Wheels, Slab Rollers

a little goes a long way. They are also a source of bentonite. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks Ed, I should be able to get Redart next time. They said they normally stock it but that it would be several weeks. I will reformulate for my upcoming vivs and hope I get _some_ time out of my current walls.
Doug


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Thanks Ed, I should be able to get Redart next time. They said they normally stock it but that it would be several weeks. I will reformulate for my upcoming vivs and hope I get _some_ time out of my current walls.
> Doug


You may get a lot of time out of the walls if there ends up being a lot of microbial growth and root growth to hold it together but don't be surprised if in a year or so, you see holes opening in it or if you try to remove a plant. 

Ed


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

I came up with a new mixture from what I know of its bentonite 60%, 40% organics probably organic potting soil then a handful of ground up sphagnum 3 handfuls of peat and a handful of coco fiber I will mix in the dry form then add water until I get the clay I'm looking for a thick sticky mixture. should the clay be like this because I thought if it was to sticky the frogs might get stuck but I'm not sure. should I add a little redart to it or is it fine I want it to last years with large frogs and heavy humidity


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

The idea to working the clay for consistency is more about massaging it to work out grainy lumps and letting it set overnight in just enough water to cover the top of it. Then you work it well with your hands to mix in the water and compact the clay, which breaks the lumps and makes it stronger. Only add enough water to make it workable---too much makes it runny and weak. It is very tiring on the arms to work the clay, but you may need to repeat this for a couple of days to get all the water worked through the clay. You should be able to support a one-pound branch on a vertical wall background with 3 to 4 inches of clay around it--it should be stiff enough to hold its shape and have just enough water to be difficult to press into place on the background. I used a 70/30 mix of clay/organics and mine is holding well. Too much organics in the mix might cause gas pockets in your clay and affect the integrity of the background over time IMO.
The frogs would get stuck in a mix that had more water to the point of being soupy, not in a mix with far less. Think more 'stiff' rather than 'sticky' for the final product.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> The idea to working the clay for consistency is more about massaging it to work out grainy lumps and letting it set overnight in just enough water to cover the top of it. Then you work it well with your hands to mix in the water and compact the clay, which breaks the lumps and makes it stronger. Only add enough water to make it workable---too much makes it runny and weak. It is very tiring on the arms to work the clay, but you may need to repeat this for a couple of days to get all the water worked through the clay. You should be able to support a one-pound branch on a vertical wall background with 3 to 4 inches of clay around it--it should be stiff enough to hold its shape and have just enough water to be difficult to press into place on the background. I used a 70/30 mix of clay/organics and mine is holding well. Too much organics in the mix might cause gas pockets in your clay and affect the integrity of the background over time IMO.
> The frogs would get stuck in a mix that had more water to the point of being soupy, not in a mix with far less. Think more 'stiff' rather than 'sticky' for the final product.


I actually add enough water to make it runny, so I can easily mix it in a few minutes. I use a paint mixer with a heavy duty drill and mix it until everything is fully mixed and then let hydrate. I then filter the slurry with some newspaper in a large screen lid over a large rubbermaid tote. The newspaper is fine enough to prevent any clay from passing though but will allow the water to drip through the slurry. I leave it overnight or until it is the consistency I want to use, and then turn it over onto another screen (or trowel directly into the back or cut slabs and place into the bottom of the area) and push it through twice to give it a little particulate shape... 

Ed


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

Ok, so I'm gonna do a redart/bentonite/organics mix what type of organics are best, For the clay should I do half bentonite and half redart or what Im confused on that part. I was also wondering is there anything else I should add to it like sphagnum or is that optional and finaly should Im mix it all up dry first then add water or create the clay then add the organics and stuff later and If I do that should I put the clay in softball size sections and add two handfulls of organics and then add more if I want a better color? and how much should I make for a 20 high sorry for all the questions


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Ed said:


> I actually add enough water to make it runny, so I can easily mix it in a few minutes. I use a paint mixer with a heavy duty drill and mix it until everything is fully mixed and then let hydrate. I then filter the slurry with some newspaper in a large screen lid over a large rubbermaid tote. The newspaper is fine enough to prevent any clay from passing though but will allow the water to drip through the slurry. I leave it overnight or until it is the consistency I want to use, and then turn it over onto another screen (or trowel directly into the back or cut slabs and place into the bottom of the area) and push it through twice to give it a little particulate shape...
> 
> Ed


When you screen the moist clay, what is the purpose of doing that other than to add oxygen to the substrate? What other organics do you add...and do you layer it?? Do you use false bottoms, screening, then the substrate/organics for the plants??? Do the tanks that have drip walls that also are based on the Redart clay mix, do they drip into a separate "water area"? With more than one tank, you probably have a mixture of techniques and to this reading observer, it may seem a little befuddling... If the purpose of using the Redart is for any nutritional purpose, why make it into clay??? And I have been unable to locate Bentonite other than in the Kitty Litter form...so guess that is my only option??? If you are mixing it in with organics in the substrate...do you have a recommended percentage??? Thanks for all your good advice...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> I actually add enough water to make it runny, so I can easily mix it in a few minutes. I use a paint mixer with a heavy duty drill and mix it until everything is fully mixed and then let hydrate. I then filter the slurry with some newspaper in a large screen lid over a large rubbermaid tote. The newspaper is fine enough to prevent any clay from passing though but will allow the water to drip through the slurry. I leave it overnight or until it is the consistency I want to use, and then turn it over onto another screen (or trowel directly into the back or cut slabs and place into the bottom of the area) and push it through twice to give it a little particulate shape...
> 
> Ed


The instructions I gave above was for my mix using the Dr. Elsey's fragrance-free cat litter. I'm assuming your instructions were for a different, finer mix and probably a more efficient way to do things (avoiding having to massage and compact the clay granules, thus tearing up your hands and arms, is always a good thing).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> The instructions I gave above was for my mix using the Dr. Elsey's fragrance-free cat litter. I'm assuming your instructions were for a different, finer mix and probably a more efficient way to do things (avoiding having to massage and compact the clay granules, thus tearing up your hands and arms, is always a good thing).


Yes, I purchased powdered red art clay, from a pottery supply store. I had purchased bentonite from a koi supply dealer years ago and have not had to purchase it again yet. If I need to get more I'll get it from a pottery supply store. 

It takes maybe 5 minutes to mix everything and then allow it to filter lets me work on other items. No hand cramps, no aggrevation of carpal tunnel... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> When you screen the moist clay, what is the purpose of doing that other than to add oxygen to the substrate? What other organics do you add...and do you layer it?? Do you use false bottoms, screening, then the substrate/organics for the plants??? Do the tanks that have drip walls that also are based on the Redart clay mix, do they drip into a separate "water area"? With more than one tank, you probably have a mixture of techniques and to this reading observer, it may seem a little befuddling... If the purpose of using the Redart is for any nutritional purpose, why make it into clay??? And I have been unable to locate Bentonite other than in the Kitty Litter form...so guess that is my only option??? If you are mixing it in with organics in the substrate...do you have a recommended percentage??? Thanks for all your good advice...


Hi Judy,
The ultimate clay thread has a good explination of why I screen it. See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html 

I use the red art to create a more naturalistic clay to where the frogs are from.... The red art is not for any nutritional purposes.. The reasons on nutritional basis are explained in the ultimate clay thread. 

I do not have a seperate water area in the cages that have drip walls. There has been a lot of discussion on this in several threads, and the conditions to make it work are the same in all of the ones I've tried and are outlined here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/59903-clay-fail.html#post520954 

and see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-bank-slope-terrarium-ideas-2.html#post467540 

Bentonites can be purchased from koi supply stores as well as pottery supply stores. 

Ed


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

Ed said:


> Yes, I purchased powdered red art clay, from a pottery supply store. I had purchased bentonite from a koi supply dealer years ago and have not had to purchase it again yet. If I need to get more I'll get it from a pottery supply store.
> 
> It takes maybe 5 minutes to mix everything and then allow it to filter lets me work on other items. No hand cramps, no aggrevation of carpal tunnel...
> 
> Ed


How much redart and bentonite do you mix together and what organics do add to it and what kind do you use?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

leuc11 said:


> How much redart and bentonite do you mix together and what organics do add to it and what kind do you use?


 
This question makes me firmly believe that you have not looked at many of the threads on the forum nor the ones I linked above... or in your other posts. 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I have read almost all the threads about the clay trying to be a good student..unlike my "formative" years... and don't mean to be annoying--but the drip wall construction without a false bottom sort of puzzles me as to how the water "drips" and then...how does it return to the top of the wall??? I do understand the biofilm that is created and most of the other things mentioned...but that aspect has me sort of stumped...any more enlightenment??? And I just cannot seem to find a source for the bentonite--and from what I did read, it is preferable to use the calcium bentonite rather than the sodium... There is so much conflicting info on these forums, it is difficult to seperate the wheat from chaff...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> I have read almost all the threads about the clay trying to be a good student..unlike my "formative" years... and don't mean to be annoying--but the drip wall construction without a false bottom sort of puzzles me as to how the water "drips" and then...how does it return to the top of the wall??? I do understand the biofilm that is created and most of the other things mentioned...but that aspect has me sort of stumped...any more enlightenment??? And I just cannot seem to find a source for the bentonite--and from what I did read, it is preferable to use the calcium bentonite rather than the sodium... There is so much conflicting info on these forums, it is difficult to seperate the wheat from chaff...


In one enclosure I have the bottom of the tank drilled leading down to a sump. The end of the drip wall flows down into the pond (level is regulated by a section of PVC to control depth of the pond). 

See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/55182-calcium-bentonite-3.html#post478408 

and http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/33471-red-clay-substrate.html

It doesn't make a difference if you use a false bottom or a sump. 

I went to google and typed in calcium bentonite pottery and hit this supplier and this calcium bentonite Bentonite - BentoLite L-10 (White) (sold per lb.) as the first response. You will have to send them a check or you could type in calcium bentonite and get Koi Clay - Koi Clay USA Koi where you can get it for more money but probably a little more convience... 


Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I got my Calcium Bentonite for eBay seller, Doormatz. $16.30 for 16.5 lbs with $14 shipping. Here's a link 16.5 #'s Calcium BENTONITE Clay KOI ponds & plants WW - eBay (item 260581803639 end time Dec-02-10 18:19:49 PST)
Doug


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Gentlemen...thank you both for the links...I immediately clicked on them...will end up ordering some. I have tried pottery places around here and some agricultural places...no koi places to try...so I do appreciate the imput...if I knew how to post "thanks" to you both, would do so... Ed--must have missed the part about having a sump...that has had me puzzled for a while...so many dimensions to this whole viv making gig....thanks


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

verybadcow said:


> Finding the right litter for a clay background isnt that confusing at all if you just think about all the information out there as a whole. There are some clays out there that are better than others to use.


Considering there are dozens of choices and quality control on these products is crap...it can be very confusing...


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