# Individual VS Communal Tadpole Raising Experiment



## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

So, this is a continuation of my previous post which can be found here:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/67799-eggs-ahoy-2.html

I am conducting a bit of personal research here regarding the methods for raising tadpoles and i thought i might share it.
I have been reading up on the discussions on raising tadpoles individually in cups (this seems to be most common), and raising them communally in a larger volume of water.
I did not come to a definitive answer so i figured i might as well try to discover for myself what works best for me.

So, what i have is 4 D. Leucomelas tadpoles which have just hatched, the initial batch was 8 eggs, but unfortunately 4 perished during their development.

2 of them have been set up in the traditional individual cup setup while the other two have been set up in a communal tank which i have been running for about a month now. The tank is swampy, filled with plants and moss and also has some cherry shrimp and some snails living in it.

Here are some pictures of the two setups:

























I have speculated that newly hatched shrimplets could be a good food item for tadpoles, but i have no evidence of this and probably wont get any since they are barely visible to the human eye.

The tadpoles are kept at the exact same water temperature (75), so i can dismiss this as being the reason for differing development rates.
All tadpoles will be fed the same food items, although of course the communal tads have more food available through algae, detritus and so on in the tank.

I will be monitoring the development, taking notes and photographs which i will post here.

Additionally, i will be adding more tadpoles to the experiment as they hatch out (currently there are close to 50 eggs under development), so i can get a more accurate result.
Also, i will be raising some of the tadpoles in "dirty" cups, where i will not be doing water changes. This is an attempt to discover whether the determining factor in the growth rate is actually the water and not the additional space.

I know this will not be anything definitive or even new, but it will determine how i will be raising tadpoles in the future. And who knows, perhaps it may prove to be useful information to some 

Regards,
Bjorn


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Great experiment!! I will enjoy seeing your progress and results with the tadpoles.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I have several Varadeo tads sharing cups. In at least 2-3 cups I have pairs of tads. Tadpoles are different ages, not sure if that would make a difference. So far there have been no cannibalism.


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanks guys.

I do hope the results will be of interest.



> I have several Varadeo tads sharing cups. In at least 2-3 cups I have pairs of tads. Tadpoles are different ages, not sure if that would make a difference. So far there have been no cannibalism.


I am not so concerned about cannibalism, although as far as i know this is very dependant on the species.
But that is not the aim of this experiment, i want to find out which housing condition yields the best results for me in terms of size, health, mortality rate and so on.

If the weaker tadpoles do get eaten by the others(though i dont expect this), well then i will attribute the loss to natural selection, and hopefully it will mean that in the end the strongest tadpoles come out on top.


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## Steve88W (Jan 21, 2011)

*Subscribed*
I'd love to see how this turns out.

I have 3 tads growing in-tank with the parents as a test. (fun to watch at work)
1 pair of tads in a single cup in the incubator. (one is much bigger than the other)
All other tads in individual cups.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm curious as to how it turns out, too. I raised Leucs in my 'swamp' tank which is 50g. I had 5 or 6 go in and only one morph out. This went on for over 5 years.

Now, all but the Leuc parents are gone and the swamp is being used for blue/bronze auratus. I thought for sure that the results would be the same - 5 in, 1 out. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have over a dozen froglets of different ages on the land portion of the swamp and probably 2 dozen tads in the water, also different sizes and ages. I never did like raising frogs in a cup - too much work.

I'm subscribing to this thread to see if it was just my Leucs or if your Leucs turn out to be cannibalistic as well. It's always interesting to learn new things.

kristi


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

Alright

The tadpoles have been in their new accomodations for a few days now and they are all doing fine, too early to tell them apart, although i have noticed that the tads in the communal tank are more active than the ones in the cup.

This seems only logical given that they need to forage for food while the ones in the cups just need to eat it 

Nothing out of the ordinary to report yet, so here is a picture of some of the tadpoles on the way.










And one of the happy campers in the cups










Regards,
Bjorn


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

So far so good!! How big are they?


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

All doing well.

Today i added 3 more tadpoles to the communal tank, along with 3 more in cups.

I also took out and measured a tadpole from each setup to compare.

Cupped one measured 1.4 CM (0.55 Inches).
Tank one measured 1.6 CM (0.62 Inches).

Not much difference so far, they all appear to be healthy and doing well, there have been no cannibalism incidences in the communal tank yet.

Unfortunately its difficult taking pictures in the tank.










Regards,
Bjorn


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## SamsonsFrogs (Mar 4, 2009)

BBJ said:


> All doing well.
> 
> Today i added 3 more tadpoles to the communal tank, along with 3 more in cups.
> 
> ...


when I first started breeding my leucs, I did raise then communally. One thing I did notice like Bjorn is my tads seemed to be larger. I found this out after raising one clutch separately in cups. Another thing I noticed while raising tads in individual cups , is they morphed out sooner. Just my experience with my leuc tads.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

BBJ said:


> If the weaker tadpoles do get eaten by the others(though i dont expect this), well then i will attribute the loss to natural selection, and hopefully it will mean that in the end the strongest tadpoles come out on top.


Since this is an unnatural experiment (after all, it's taking place in captivity, and you are personally moving that tadpoles around and you are determining which tads go in individual cups and which ones are being raised communally) I hardly thing it can be said that "natural selection" is a factor. 

My understanding is that leucomelas are cannibalistic.... Wouldn't it make more sense to conduct this experiment with a communal species like bassleri or terribilis? Seems like the cannibalism could play a heavy factor in the end result....


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Since this is an unnatural experiment (after all, it's taking place in captivity, and you are personally moving that tadpoles around and you are determining which tads go in individual cups and which ones are being raised communally) I hardly thing it can be said that "natural selection" is a factor.


You are right, but then again you could say that about more or less every experiment done in a captive environment.
Ultimately, i think it will still mean that the strongest tadpoles will come out on top, even though the setting may not be natural.



SmackoftheGods said:


> My understanding is that leucomelas are cannibalistic.... Wouldn't it make more sense to conduct this experiment with a communal species like bassleri or terribilis? Seems like the cannibalism could play a heavy factor in the end result....


I have a theory that if given enough space and food, even the tadpoles of a species with cannibalistic tendencies like Leucomelas, will not turn on each other.
So far this is holding true in my little experiment, but lets see how it unfolds as they get bigger.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

BBJ said:


> I have a theory that if given enough space and food, even the tadpoles of a species with cannibalistic tendencies like Leucomelas, will not turn on each other.


I've heard this mentioned before concerning tinc tads. It would make things much easier to raise them communally...however the fear that I may lose some has stopped me from trying it yet. Good luck to you. I'll be watching to see how this turns out.


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

WendySHall said:


> I've heard this mentioned before concerning tinc tads. It would make things much easier to raise them communally...however the fear that I may lose some has stopped me from trying it yet. Good luck to you. I'll be watching to see how this turns out.


Yes, i have also heard it mentioned several times before - and i recall once seeing a Japanese gentlemans setup which featured some flat but very large pans of water, with a lot of floor space, which held a lot of tadpoles - and they each maintained their own little territory so to speak.

I can definitely see why they would want to get rid of their buddies if they were having to compete over the limited resources in a tiny puddle, or a bromeliad, or a cup - but given enough space and resources i think the results may be different.

Well, time will tell if this holds true.


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

Marcus with SNDF raises a lot of, if not all of his tads communally. He said he puts his auratus all in together in a good sized container and most turn out fine. The ones that don't make it for what ever reason he feels help create a group of stronger frogs from the survivers. makes sense to me.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Ben Wehr said:


> Marcus with SNDF raises a lot of, if not all of his tads communally. He said he puts his auratus all in together in a good sized container and most turn out fine. The ones that don't make it for what ever reason he feels help create a group of stronger frogs from the survivers. makes sense to me.


Does he do this with Leucs as well? Inquiring minds, and all that stuff...


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

guppygal said:


> Does he do this with Leucs as well? Inquiring minds, and all that stuff...


I've raised Leuc tads communally last fall with no losses. The trick in my opinion is to provide a large enough tank, with plenty of submerged vegetation and an adequate supply of protein such as blood worms or aquatic invertebrates(which will grow naturally if the tank is large enough and aged properly)


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I've raised Leuc tads communally last fall with no losses. The trick in my opinion is to provide a large enough tank, with plenty of submerged vegetation and an adequate supply of protein such as blood worms or aquatic invertebrates(which will grow naturally if the tank is large enough and aged properly)


I'll give that a shot this next time - thanks!


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## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

guppygal said:


> Does he do this with Leucs as well? Inquiring minds, and all that stuff...


I don't know. It seemed to me at the time that he was putting all his tads in communal tubs.

it makes good sense that this would work if the tads are given the space, food, leaf litter or vegetation to eat and hide when needed. I've seen auratus kept in a 32oz container and do well up until they started getting back legs. the smaller ones then started to get white suck/bite marks on them but if there were enough space for a tad to get away and not encounter the attacker for a while then it seems like it'd be pretty safe.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BBJ said:


> I have a theory that if given enough space and food, even the tadpoles of a species with cannibalistic tendencies like Leucomelas, will not turn on each other.
> So far this is holding true in my little experiment, but lets see how it unfolds as they get bigger.


 
I ran trials using ventrimaculatus and the limiting factor (as reported for wild populations) is access to animal protein. If you give them enough protein they won't cannibalize each other. However, they can also exert an influence on time to morphing either through competition or through chemical methods. I didn't have time to tease out which one was the causitive agent. This has been discussed a number of times.. 

This isn't even all of the threads on the topic... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...my-communal-tinc-tad-raising-observation.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/40052-raising-tinc-tads-communally.html

See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/53431-raising-groups-vent-tads.html#post464657 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/40052-raising-tinc-tads-communally.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/67788-french-guiana-tad-raising.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...18641-show-me-your-heated-tadpole-setups.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/63100-all-tads-cannibalistic.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/62641-communal-tad-death.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...2-communal-vs-individual-raised-tadpoles.html


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Ah...that was another thing...the morph time. 

While I don't want them coming out at lightning speed (couldn't possibly be a good thing), I also don't want to wait an awful lot longer for them to morph. I believe I read they can take 1 1/2 - 2 times longer. Definite "con" of communal raising.


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

Ed said:


> I ran trials using ventrimaculatus and the limiting factor (as reported for wild populations) is access to animal protein. If you give them enough protein they won't cannibalize each other. However, they can also exert an influence on time to morphing either through competition or through chemical methods. I didn't have time to tease out which one was the causitive agent. This has been discussed a number of times..


Interesting, thanks Ed.
Do you have any links to some reading material regarding the "chemical warfare" of the tadpoles?
I would like to learn more about this.

I wonder then, how the development of a single tadpole kept in a large tank would compare to a cupped one.

Anyway, the tadpoles are all doing well still, tomorrow i will measure them again.
It is actually quite enjoyable watching the tadpole tank, lots of activity there with tadpoles and shrimps grazing around and occasionally bumping in to each other.
One thing that i appreciate is the ease of keeping them communally, all the cups and feeding, water changes and so on is rather time consuming. That is definitely a pro that would weigh more for me than morphing out sooner.
But of course that depends on your situation.

Regards,
Bjorn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Here is a technical description of one form of hormonal impact. See http://www.mcdb.lsa.umich.edu/labs/denver/files/publications/GCE in press.pdf


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey guys

Sorry about the lack of updates, it turned out to be an extremely busy week for me!

Anyway, everything is progressing nicely and it is interesting to watch - the amount of tadpoles is now up to 34 (17 cupped, 17 communal), and as far as i can tell, not a single tadpole has perished yet in either setup.

There is no doubt by now though, that the communal tads are gaining size faster, the oldest of the tadpoles are almost twice the size of the cupped ones from same clutch.

There have been no problems in either setup, apart from the communal ones being much easier to do maintenance with.

Here are a few snapshots of the tadpoles:

























I am gonna try capturing some pictures of the oldest tadpoles from both setups together, so you can get an idea of the size difference.

If this continues the same way, i think i will reach the result that many others have reported, namely that cupped raising results in faster morphs, while communal raising results in larger froglets, but slower morph.

I am preparing to expand the experiment a little, namely a new tank setup such as the one i have now, which will only house a single tadpole, and then a cupped tadpole which will feature no water changes, and additionally a cupped tadpole done the "normal" way, with water changes and so on.
I am curious as to what results this will produce, specifically i am interested in finding out whether the lone tadpole in the tank will morph out at the same speed as the regularly cupped one, and whether there will be difference in size.

Regards
Bjorn


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm curious about the morphing rates and the size, health, and longevity of the cupped tads vs the communal tads. It would be interesting to learn if the tads that morphed out slower lived longer and stayed healthier than those that morphed out more quickly. This may end up being a very long term project for you, if you continued to monitor them thru the years.

I've always hears that trees that grow the fastest have a much shorter lifespan than slow-growing trees. Okay, so it's a stretch, but there might be something to it -

Or not -


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

guppygal said:


> I'm curious about the morphing rates and the size, health, and longevity of the cupped tads vs the communal tads. It would be interesting to learn if the tads that morphed out slower lived longer and stayed healthier than those that morphed out more quickly. This may end up being a very long term project for you, if you continued to monitor them thru the years.
> 
> I've always hears that trees that grow the fastest have a much shorter lifespan than slow-growing trees. Okay, so it's a stretch, but there might be something to it -
> 
> Or not -


http://www.helsinki.fi/biosci/egru/pdf/2002/FreshWaterB2002.pdf

http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/stats/adu/pdf/res8.pdf


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## Adven2er (Aug 17, 2008)

I've raised Leuc tads both individually and communally. They were well fed and there was no cannibalism. The tads that were raised individually seemed to grow at about the same rate and morph within a few days of each other. The tads that were raised communally seemed to grow at different rates and morphed out over several weeks.


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## BBJ (Feb 26, 2010)

guppygal said:


> I'm curious about the morphing rates and the size, health, and longevity of the cupped tads vs the communal tads. It would be interesting to learn if the tads that morphed out slower lived longer and stayed healthier than those that morphed out more quickly. This may end up being a very long term project for you, if you continued to monitor them thru the years.
> 
> I've always hears that trees that grow the fastest have a much shorter lifespan than slow-growing trees. Okay, so it's a stretch, but there might be something to it -
> 
> Or not -


I am certainly contemplating keeping some froglets from both methods seperately, it would be interesting to also monitor their development through adult life. But this is a larger scale project for sure 
I think its very interesting though, all the factors that go into tadpole development, and i am learning a lot while doing it.



> http://www.helsinki.fi/biosci/egru/p...WaterB2002.pdf
> 
> http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/stats/adu/pdf/res8.pdf


Great reading material as always Ed, thanks!


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Unfortunately, both of those links no longer work. Is it possible for new links to these articles to be posted?


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