# Getting intimidated, overwhelmed, etc.- design princples



## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

So I have my froglets in a 20L tank to grow them out in, until I make my "real" viv for them. I've been playing with some of the construction methods mentioned here, making rock hides for my snakes, testing how the products work, and how to work the product. I'm doing my research on the plants. 

But when it comes to being willing to REALLY start planning and designing amd greatstuffing and siliconing and planting the viv, it scares the crap out of me. Its so, well, permanent. Or a rebuild is a major process, with the removal of the bad work. I'm afraid to "ruin" a perfectly good tank.

Most posts about building a viv elaborate on the construction process but don't give insight and honor to the creative process. What about design principle? There are truly some viv ARTISTS on here, how do you know what to put where? How many people just fake it til they make it, and it comes out well anyway? How many people think their viv isn't good, but get tons of compliments?

I may have to just start and see what happens, but I'd love to hear from others, especially those who were intimidated at first, but became Vivarium VanGoghs!

 Stephi


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well the creativity is your own, that is why they all look diffrent, so just go ahead and build your and you will see that ones you plant it and let it grow a little you can then see how things turn out, some of the vivariums will look great right from the star, but others take time to mature so just take the plunge and start building.


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## capitale (Nov 7, 2008)

mtolypetsupply said:


> So I have my froglets in a 20L tank to grow them out in, until I make my "real" viv for them. I've been playing with some of the construction methods mentioned here, making rock hides for my snakes, testing how the products work, and how to work the product. I'm doing my research on the plants.
> 
> But when it comes to being willing to REALLY start planning and designing amd greatstuffing and siliconing and planting the viv, it scares the crap out of me. Its so, well, permanent. Or a rebuild is a major process, with the removal of the bad work. I'm afraid to "ruin" a perfectly good tank.
> 
> ...


I totally hear you. I think the key is to start simple, don't go all out on your first 'real' viv, because it's likely that you'll end up disappointed -just start simple and get a feel for the construction materials. I set up a 10 vert just for practice before starting on my 'real' viv and learned quite a bit from it. It didn't turn out the way I expected it would -the driftwood I is now completely hidden by plants, its hard to get an idea of how the plants will fill out until they are actually planted in the viv. I used too much expanding foam (less is more and its very easy to use too much). Experience and confidence are the biggest players in viv construction IME.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

First if you want a crash course in tankscaping (did i just coin a new term?)...Takashi amano does some crazy rad aquarium design. They are aquariums but they look like really good vivaria underwater, and most of the same creative principles can be applied. For a good sampling of his work try this...or just look up the name 
Aquarium Art By Takashi Amano

Some advice from myself. *Asymmetry*, things are rarely symetrical in nature. Mutiple levels, a bottom, middle and top, and depth....a foreground, a middle ground, a background. Basically many aspects of artistic compostion in art/photography can be employed, and are worth researching if "the eye" doesnt come naturallly to you.

I basically work out a rough plan in my head, occasionally doing a rough sketch and then just go to it...bout 50% plan, 50% winging it... Planning ahead as much as possible is good, but be prepared to modify your plan as you go based on available materials and well how it looks as you proceed  Sometimes during construction inspiration just hits. Try setting things up, propping them up, even putting your potted plants in the viv as you work arranging them in various ways to help you figure out how you want the layout.

Also making a particular plant, rock, or piece of wood the focal point and designing around that is a good way to go. Try not to place it right in the center of the tank though usually...usually, sometimes you gotta break the rules. A Big part of the "art" is knowing when, and in what way to do that.

Dont forget color either....adding color, or making one particular color the theme of the viv can be a good way to go. Then again sometimes all green is just awsome. Green moss on the wood, on the walls, creeping plant in the background, green everywhere! But with lots of different textures...another thing to consider 

Also dont freak out if you run into a design flaw...often you can work around it if you're creative(and sometimes willing to compromise), rather then scraping/scraping out the whole viv and starting over.

K thats all i got off the top of my head...
Here is my best personal example:

















Yes im pimping this viv all over the place


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## kwazarr (Oct 4, 2007)

One of the things that I've found most helpful is looking at TONS of pictures of other peoples' viv's and carefully going over the details of certain features that you like. What kind of feature is it? What about it catches your eye (position in tank, angle, colour, texture, etc)? 

When you've got some good ideas about what kinds of features you want and an overall idea of the look you want for you tank, PLANNING it out is the next really helpful thing. Take some time and really work on figuring out how you want everything to go together. Make drawings, buy/collect various pieces that you might use (driftwood, rocks etc) and play around with various combinations in the tank and see how they look. I'm a really big fan of the second idea personally. I know some artists/sculptors will tell you how they do not choose the pieces they make, rather that the pieces choose them. Playing around with various random pieces can be a great way to inspire yourself in ways that are difficult to do just through planning.

Last thing...when you're actually building the "tankscaping", don't be afraid to make mistakes...they will happen. And sometimes even rolling with your mistakes after you make them and continuing on can allow you to create things that your imagination never considered. Anyways, my two cents! 

Oh...and don't let the fact that this is your first viv project to limit you in the ideas you want to try...reach for the stars! Only advice I can give is the higher you reach, the more time and planning should go into it!










Ross.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks, everyone for the encouragement and ideas! Ross, I did start collecting my driftwood today. Luckily, I live quite close to the ocean, so I did a little beach cleanup and found the following:










and










I have a group of 5 D. auratus froglets. They are (at the youngest) one month out of the water, and in a sufficient but boring grow out tank. The reading I've done says that auratus are more terrestrial, so I'd like a forest floor setup for them in my 20L. 

I'm thinking the darker pieces would be more natural, as the sun wouldn't have reached the floor to bleach them, but they could have died and been bleached up in the canopy, then fallen. Also, I haven't found any good stumps, so I'm thinking that I'll either have to create one (which in my perfectionism and intimidated state will keep me from doing anything for fear it won't be right) or go with the feel of a tiny piece of the floor under a very old and dying tree, with lots of that tree's fallen limbs on the ground.

Any suggestions, by number, of the pieces I should use? Arrangement? As I'm typing, I'm thinking maybe one or two pices on the vertical, simulating the base, and a few others on the horizontal/piled as fallen. 

Being that my auratus are Panamania, if anyone has any plants of Panamanian origin that they might want to sell or trade for driftwood (hey, no telling me not to use a piece just so you can have it! LOL), I'd be very interested.

Also, anyone have a link for a thread pertaining to "false bottom vs. LECA"? I'm trying to decide between the two, and haven't found a good comparison thread yet.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Oh, crap. I numbered each piece of driftwood on my photobucket account, but the numbers aren't showing up here.

If you are really that industrious and want to help, heres a link:

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/mtolypetsupply/driftwood/IMG_3232.jpg

and the others

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq176/mtolypetsupply/driftwood/IMG_3231.jpg


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

[
Also, anyone have a link for a thread pertaining to "false bottom vs. LECA"? I'm trying to decide between the two, and haven't found a good comparison thread yet.[/QUOTE]

You have been getting great advice on how to lay out your tank and from the care you are taking I am sure your Auratus will love whatever you build.

I will suggest LECA vs an eggcrate bottom. I have converted my both my main Auratus tanks to LECA as the frogs were persistent in finding ways down to the water and had a great time. Not known for my engineering skills they carried many a tad down below that false bottom despite my efforts to prevent them. Eventually there were more then a dozen tads down there and so I replaced with LECA. I left both tanks with a corner pond (as they seemed to appreciate that water so much) and both sets of dads have transported to those ponds and have had beautiful froglets.

More then you probably wanted to know!

Sally


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for the input! Sally, when you left a corner pond, how exactly did you do that? Just leave a depression in the LECA? Silicone it in place so as not to lose the slope?

I'm boiling some of the driftwood now. EWWWWWWWW. It smells like Wet-dog-who-rolled-in-dead-sea-critter-and-poop. Why wet dog, I don't know, but it smells like some of that's thrown in the mix. I don't imagine baking them smells any better. I'm going to have to get some propane, and do this outside from now on.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

If you want to really get into the artistic side of your viv scape I would search into "principals of design" such as balance, harmony, contrast, repitition, rhythm, emphasis, unity. It's a lot to swallow and then think of how you can apply these concepts to a viv...but if you can achieve some of these concepts you will end up with a trophy viv. 

Another place to look into are some photography rules of thumb....ie the "rule of thirds" as mentioned above, don't put anything smack dab in the center of the vertical axis or horizontal axis. 

A third place to research is the japanese art of placement known as ikebana. This tends to deal more with arrangement of a few flowers or sticks but the concept of minimalism in a viv might serve you well if you dont have the pocket book for many different types of plants. Consider planting a viv with cuttings from 2-3 houseplants instead of 15-20 individully purchased 2" potted plants or plugs.

Before I set things in thesub strate I just put them in the viv in pots to see how I like the arrangement, leave them there for a few days or week and move them about one at a time over the course of that week. Give some time to admire it over time instead of planting everything all in one sitting. 

As for your BG, many people work so hard on these to make them look so perfect and real...but the reality is they get completely covered with green within a year and become barely visible. 

Take your time, dont rush, relax, and when things dont go as planned they are known as "happy accidents" and really end up being some of your vivs best features. Its just plants, wood, and substrate, which will survive no matter what happens. Just make sure your false bottom is frog proof, it the biggest thing to stress about. Test a bead of silicone, make sure it cures, before smearing it all over the place as some tubes expire and stay in its gooey film.

Good luck and have fun!


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for those references. I've studied a little landscape architecture, but haven't gotten far with it. I'll have to look in the library and at a lot more viv pics, too. Those takashi amano pics are amazing, as are the viv pics from you guys!

I went to White Plains today and had a good time. Picked up a Tillandsia, Selengium (sp?), and white rabbit's foot fern, and some java moss. I took out the pothos, which was ALREADY overgrowing it's welcome, after just a month, and put the new plants in, still potted, straight into the LECA. I want to see how they all do, and get another plant or two at the flower show, but I embrace the minimalism idea.

Still rinsing the driftwood, then I'll choose my pieces. The tannins are leaching out a lot more than I thought they would. I mean, it's REAL drift wood. It's been in the ocean. HOW much could be left??? LOL

Oh, and Eric, I LOVE the Bob Ross reference! I used to love to watch him paint... "And a happy little tree lives here..."


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## Fishman (Jan 16, 2007)

Make sure with the driftwood that you give it time for all of the "little critters" to die off before you use. I picked up some DW in Maine last fall for one of my fish tanks. I dried it and then boiled it before putting it in my tank. Come to find out it had some small mussels (? or other shelled critters) that had bored into to wood with TINY little holes. As the died and decomposed in my tank the smell was horendous and I am sure the fish were not happy with me. I pulled the wood out, let the critters finish the decomp process and it smells fine now... but found DW user be warned!


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

I was drawn to this thread as I can relate to being worried about building your first real background, etc. When I first got into the hobby, it was before I knew about Dendroboard and all of these amazing set ups people do here. I got most of my information from the breeder I bought from and from reading books, but knew nothing of these great stuff backgrounds and concrete rock walls and about what a true hobby viv design is in and of itself. 

In my first few tanks, before I knew about Dendroboard, I did a few where I just used silicone to glue on corkbark backgrounds, cool pieces of wood, rocks and such to create ledges and platforms, backgrounds, and wall planters and just mounted a lot of plants to create my background.
My "non -frog" friends who visited the house were always impressed but upon discovering the "real world" of dart frog viv design and what is really out there on Dendroboard, I was embarassed to show my new friends within the hobby my shabby old tanks ( I met these friends through Dendroboard- which was the reason I actually finally signed up for a Dendroboard user name- to make contact with them).. but never would have posted my tanks on here...

But of course it wasn't long before these new friends wanted to see our frogs and came over, saw our original tanks, were very kind in their words and encouraged and helped as as I worked up the courage to build a real viv. (I even bought a custom designed one before I knew about these ones) but through my extensive reading on this site, following construction threads, tips and help from my local frog friends (priceless to have someone that can actually come help you) I finally got up the courage to trust my weak construction skills at building some of these tanks.

One of the best things I did to help me get past that worry of "ruining a perfectly good tank" was to buy a few small tanks on clearance. I use them as quarantine and temporary holding tanks, but tried out the great stuff background in there the first few times. I am a "pro" at the silicone with as much of that as I have used(not really, but certainly use a lot of it and not worried about messing that up anymore)... but the great stuff is something that is overwhelming the first time you use.... use gloves for sure.. and where junk clothes no matter how neat of a person you are and remember, however big you think it will expand, it will expand more than you think so start small... it is easy to add more as you like...

I found doing the small test tanks a great way to build confidence and actually get comfortable with the techniques and materials. One thing I would suggest that I found out the hard way is if you do go that route (testing on smaller tank(s) first- go easy withthe great stuff... leave a spot or two empty to fill as if you fill it all in the first round, the pressure of the expansion is enough to burst the glass on the back of a small tank ( I learned this on 3- one repairable, the other 2 not... but luckily the two that weren't I only spent $10 each on them). In fact, we are going to use one of the learning tanks to house the baby frogs that I have had since tadpoles in my son's classroom. (they are definately not as critical as I am.  )
And now, I feel comfortable enough with the different techniques- great stuff, the concrete binder- got to compare this great method of adding coco fiber background to cover the great stuff to using silicone, and even different brands and so now that we are redoing all of our early tanks, I have the technique down pat and know how I prefer to do it and what looks best.

I am hoping to try out a rock wall tank soon... its just again the hurdle of getting past the worry of ruining a tank... in the end, even if you do have to carve out great stuff it is not such a big deal and you will be so much happier with the result once you give it a shot that I would say just go for it!
Also, not sure where you were located, but see if there are any other hobbiests in your area... that is a great place to start - invite someone else over to help... two (or three points) of view are always better than one and it is amazing how much you learn from others- the people in our area- we get together and I think we all learn from each other every time... I am able to give tips on eggs and tadpole and froglet techniques and they help me a ton on tank construction!

Oh- and I still think the hardest and most critical part of the whole build is knowing and choosing the right place to plant the plants in the end anyway. My mom who has landscape and art background is MUCH better at that than me and she has no frog background! I love when she visits as I am finishing a new tank and always try to con her into helping us plant it.  So hopefully your landscape design will help you with that! In any event, it will be worth "taking the leap" as I am now proud to show of the tanks that we have re-done... even to our frog friends. 
Good luck!!


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

So I've started. I'm keeping it simple, and hoping for the best. 














































That's as far as I've gotten, I can't wait to see how it looks in the end.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

good start keep us posted.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

And it progresses:

2nd coat of Great Stuff and more wood added:











1st coat of silicone/coir:











Another of same:











My favorite piece of driftwood in the corner:












And my "Noob to Noob" Design/Construction advice:

1. Do not extend anything but GS within 2-3" of the top of your viv. You will be unhappy when you turn it rightside up, and seem to "lose" that detail as you look at it from the front.

2. Great Stuff---- Window and door (the kind that says it cures "flexible") seems to give a more smooth bubble like appearance. The regular stuff, not the black "Large Gap" kind as I haven't used that yet, doesn't come out in smooth fashion, more flat and like whipped cream, and doesn't seem to stick to stuff as well as the "flexible" stuff.

3. After the GS cures a little, you'll be able to kind of pull and mold and compress it, but not by much, in my limited, one-project experience.

4. Wear Gloves. No, it doesn't matter what kind, latex, vinyl, nitrile, just wear gloves.

5. Foam "paintbrushes" are good for squishing silicone around and into areas where your fingers don't fit.

6. So far, it's easier to add than to take away. Start with one can of GS and see what it does, and determine if you need more.


I'm sure I'll have more "Noob-to-Noob" advice as the project goes on, and hope you all enjoy the pics of my first project!


Stephi


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

looks good!! see is not so bad


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Not so bad at all! Second coat of silicone coir is on, but I'll wait for pics til I'm done.

Thank you all for your encouraging and inspiring posts. It was comforting to know others had the same anxiety that I did. It is great to get so much support from everyone. Thanks!


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

Looks great so far... you will learn so much by just starting and working on your first one... as you see from the list you've already created... and will find more things that worked well or that you would do differently as you go along. 
One thing that I have found as I have tried out different products, methods, etc that the black pond foam- of any brand is a lot easier to cover up than the white great stuff foam which every little hole or bare spot glares at me. It also in most of my applications has taken away the step of having to paint or silicone the tank black first... just an idea for your next one. There are several brands that make black foam that work well for that application.
Will keep watching your other posts as its fun to see the progress!


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

hmmm, I like that black pond foam idea!!!! Much less labor/product intensive then!!!!!!

So I've made a LOT of progress. If anyone else is feeling like I did, don't worry about it, just JUMP IN AND DO IT (oh, and get a cheapo tank so you can't feel guilty! LOL)

Here's with the background completed and excess silicone trimmed, and the LECA layer with window screen:











And with substrate and plants added:




























I also put some Java in and then sealed it up with Press n Seal. It's a start!

I'm hoping to take my daughter hiking for a while today (it's BEAUTIFUL, like 55deg here!) so I was wondering if wild harvested mosses/lichens/plants need any special treatment before going in the viv. I wouldn't harvest illegally or from areas that may have been treated with chemicals. 

And can one use the "buttermilk/moss in a blender" trick in a viv?

Thanks for your help!


Stephi


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## postal (Aug 12, 2008)

Depending on where you live, most mosses need a cool winter period, and dont do well in vives. If you live in florida, it's probably a tropical moss and would be fine.

Too humid in a tank for most lichens.

Buttermilk/yogurt mixes seem to get mixed reviews, but can get a lot of mold in a tank.

Some people sterilize plants in 5% bleach for about 20 minutes, then rinse really well and let them air out before planting.

Others use a drop of dishsoap and a few tablespoons of cider vinegar in water.

Tank looks good, but what is the substrate? it isnt a regular potting soil is it? In the pic it looks like it has pearlite which means regular potting soil which is generally not good for frogs. Most have fertilizers in them which is bad for frogs. Pearlite can be ingested and kill them too.


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## mtolypetsupply (Dec 18, 2008)

Substrate is a blend of Shredded Cocohusk, Coir, Peat, Rice Hulls, Tree Fern Fiber and a soilless mix without fertilizer. There is a tiny bit of Perlite in there. What's the risk involved with it? Not in what can happen, but in probability of occurrence. Like, at any moment, a plane *could* fall out of the sky and kill you, but the probability is slim to none. 

I doubt I could get it all out, if the probability is high that they would eat it, I'll replant. If the risk for eating it is low, I could pick out the visible pieces, and keep an eye for new ones that migrate to the surface. I will definitely keep the perlite out of the blend next time. Are there any other substances I shouldn't have in there? Vermiculite, will they eat that? I have done searches on these things but didn't find this info. I think things like this should be a sticky in care sheets with the Keywords as the title!


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## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

Any updates on this tank? I love this thread.

As for perlite, I'm surprised no one replied to that, sorry I got to it so late.

There's a high probability of ingesting perlite when it is in the viv. I know of a few froggers who have lost frogs and done necropsy only to find perlite clogging the digestive tract.

It's definitely a high enough risk to replant the viv with a new substrate.


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## Lilypad87 (Feb 21, 2007)

this is a great thread, ive made at least 10+ (starting to lose count lol) tanks from 10-29g tanks and ive always worried about my tanks being aesthetically pleasing to visitors, but idk i usually draw a couple diagrams on paint on my laptop and then wing it from there. But i was gonna tell you there is a cool slideshow on blackjungles website that talks a lot about planting and where to put plants. one good piece of advice it gives if you have several plants from the same species dont spread em over the tank instead have them in bunches kinda like they would be in the wild. i did this in my new tank w/ my oncidium orchids and also in this example with a clump of pothos in the right and a several fittonia in the left 








hope this helps a little bit just my two cents


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