# Pitcher plants and Frogs



## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I have seen pictures here and there of frogs hanging out in pitcher plants and heard of frogs useing them to deposit eggs in vivs. On the other hand alot of people seem to cringe at the idea of keep pitchers big enough for the frogs to get in. Are they just guessing that they wil get eatin or is there a real good chance of this.


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

I collect most of my vent tads from a pitcher plant and they all seem to develop into healthy froglets. The vents just love them and it is so easy to get the tads out.

-Blake


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

That's interesting... what type of Pitcher Plant?

And how do you get the tads out of the pitchers (depending on what type of plant you've got, it is possibly difficult.)?

s


bwood1979 said:


> I collect most of my vent tads from a pitcher plant and they all seem to develop into healthy froglets. The vents just love them and it is so easy to get the tads out.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

What size, and what kind of Nepenthes (I believe this is the kind you got) is it? 

I am strongly opposed to keeping dart frogs with Nepenthes, in general, with a few exceptions. I have two large N. ventricosa, while smaller than most species, their lids' perstome blocks any animal trying to escape if trying to climb up. Also, they are hour glass shaped, making escape nearly impossible. While probably not a threat to a large tinctorius, I have noticed that my mantellas don't climb as well, and my tricolors are still pretty small. I know as a fact Nepenthes have a symbiotic relationship with Rhacophorus frogs, but they are much larger and have EVOLVED with Nepenthes.

The only Nepenthes that are OK and pretty safe are N. ampullaria and N. gracillis. They are small growers, and lowlanders that will take the same care as dendrobates.

Many highlanders like N. ventricosa, N. sanguinea, etc. will get WAY too large and need cooler nights.

I have heard too many stories of Darlingtonia californica, Cobra Pitcher Plants trapping and eating PAcific treefrogs in their native habitats. Plus, I used to feed guppies to all my pitcher plants, and noticed how quickly they were digested.

Just something to watch out for,

Rain


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Unfortunately, I lost the name tag for the nepenthes that I have. I purchased it from black jungle. The pitchers are about three inched in legnth. I have an automated misting system for my cages so the pitchers get pretty full with water. They use it all the time to deposit their tads. I'm not sure if any of you have had similar experiences or not but it has worked for me.

-Blake


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2004)

ya know, my mom always used to tell me that if i played with fire i was going to get burned..... then i saw fire dancers and fire eaters at a circus so i never belived anything she said because those guys didn't get burned. :wink: 

same thing with pitchers i guess. do your homework and make sure that the plant wont eat the frog and you should be okay, but you definitely wont get burned by a plant..... unless it's on fire. :roll:


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'll bet it's Nepenthes Truncatas. I'll try to grab a pic of mine.

So you just "tilt" the traps to get the tads out?

s


bwood1979 said:


> Unfortunately, I lost the name tag for the nepenthes that I have. I purchased it from black jungle. The pitchers are about three inched in legnth. I have an automated misting system for my cages so the pitchers get pretty full with water. They use it all the time to deposit their tads. I'm not sure if any of you have had similar experiences or not but it has worked for me.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

N. truncata is by far the WORST plant to EVER keep with dart frogs. These plants will grow pitchers 14 inches in length. And will grow many feet tall and wide. Your frog WILL be food once they grow up. However, they are very hardy plants, inexpensive, and good for the beginner..........while young, that is. I suggest you move your plant out in a few years. It will also get stunted too in such a cramped enclosure.

Look for N. ampullaria and gracilis. BJ has them too, and they are cheap, small, and easy. They will not outgrow a modest sized terrarium.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Rain - I heard what you're saying. I also hear what Blake is saying.

*He is using them differently than you do so I'd like to hear what he says.*

Blake - any chance of perusing the plants at Black Jungle to see if you can track down which Nepenthes you're using here?

thx.

s


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

I went to black jungle's website and tried to find out what I have. It is just too difficult. I'll try to get a pic. and send it to those who are interested. If we can't find out, I'll ask Richard when they come to the next NY Metro Show.

As far as getting the tads out, usually they dump out but sometimes they get stuck inside the lip of the pitcher. I will just fill the pitcher back up with water and siphon them out when this happens. You have to understand that all of the pitchers are almost full of water due to the heavy misting that my misting system does.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

here is N. truncata









N. ampullaria

[img http://bestcarnivorousplants.com/CP_Pho ... _Holub.jpg
[/img]


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

It could be N. ampullaria but not that burgandy.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Guys, sorry if I sound a little too harsh in my opinion, specific apology to scott. I am just very much against the idea IN GENERAL because most people forget that plant mixing can be just as bad as mixing frog species, as they don't come from the same parts of the world. For instance, poinsettas, despite they are from Mexico, if you had a large tank, you could probably keep them in the same conditions. However, considering the toxins from the plants are pretty lethal, dropping leaves that have neglected to take out could be bad. 

However, if everything is working, and nothing is wrong, then continue to do what you're doing. Just be careful, that is all.

N ampullaria would be a fine choice for vent tadpoles, provided that you monitor them regularly, and I'm sure you do. Thing is, ampullaria have evolved to freely collect rainwater (that's why their lids aren't domed) and they are less acidic.

The real problem with the big plants, despite that pitcher plant acid is generally too weak to harm a frog that hides in there, is that the fleshy peristome (the mouth overhang) blocks and escaping animal, unless they find someway to grab hold without leaning back too much and fall back in. So, as long as the frog has some access out, there is generally no problem. Also, these plants do produce an intoxicating chemical that causes an animal to be dizzy and disoriented. However, it has yet to harm Rhacophorus frogs, so the frogs must not be affected even if absorbed into the skin.

Pacific treefrogs in their native habitat can fall prey because the light windows inside the traps confuse them, and they continue to stay there, but its not a regular occurance. Cobra pitcher plants produce no enzymes, all bacterial action.

Frogs and pitcher plants DO have symbiotic relationships. Its just that treefrogs have evolved along side in their native habitat. Unfortunately, there is only one type of pitcher plant, and that is Heliamphora, southern relatives of Sarracenia. They NEED treefrogs to eat insects drawn to nectar glands, as they produce no enzymes and primarily feed on the frogs droppings. In fact, there is a hairless spot JUST for the frog to sit there, and be litterally spoon fed insects.

Unfortunately, they probably would do poorly with Dendrobates, mostly because they need cool temps, as they are from the tepuis of Venezulea. They also get quite large and need a ton of light. I thought about putting them in there, but my room is warm.

There is a miniature hybrid H. nutans x heterodoxa that only gets a few inches tall and will take it somewhat warmer. IT is cheap, beautiful, and hardy.

It would be a fine choice for highland frogs such as E. tricolor and mantellas, probably much, much better and safer than Nepenthes.

I am not too familiar with ventrimaculatus temperature, but you could definitely keep this plant if you can keep the temp below 82 degrees, and most importantly, have a night time drop down to the 60s. Perhaps a basement vivarium? The nectar spoon was designed to attract insects, which the frogs would definitely find and sit there.

If you're interested in aquiring this nice pitcher plant, I can help you locate a nursery, as I know tons as CPs are my biggest collection.

Speaking of N. ampullaria, was it just a normal N. ampullaria?

I didn't really check out this site, but I AM looking for N. ampullaria "Cantley's red." It is a beautiful little plant. Unfortunately, they all cost roughly $75 from Cook's Carnivorous Plants, one of the cheapest places around for CPs. :? I haven't been to Black Jungle in a while, they advertise regularly in Carnivorous Plant Newsletter (for International Carnivorous Plant Society Member's only)
http://www.venturalink.net/~maxxpaxx/nampspeckled.htm

 
Rain

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## Guest (Sep 30, 2004)

Correct me if im wrong but Im sure ive read that the pitcher plants secrete a enzime that helps decompose the caught prey so the plant can digest it. Would these secretions from the plant not be harmful to a tadpole or frog ? :?:


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## droseraman (Jun 17, 2004)

I have to agree with rain frog when it comes to N. Truncata, and N. ampularia. Also nepenthes do secret an enzime which helps the plant digest the prey item.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I have no reason to disagree with anyone - I just want(ed) to hear Blake's experiences with what he is *already* doing.

Don't know if I'll do it myself - but I want to know what he does.

I doubt that Blake is leaving the tads in the pitchers very long - or it would be problematic. He also pointed out (since I have actually read what he wrote) that he has the misting system on all the time and therefore, the pitchers are mostly full - rather than the 1/3rd full they'd normally be. So I would hazard a guess that the enzymes are diluted quite a bit.

Between that and expeditiously picking out the tads - I don't think it's a problem.

s


droseraman said:


> I have to agree with rain frog when it comes to N. Truncata, and N. ampularia. Also nepenthes do secret an enzime which helps the plant digest the prey item.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2004)

Maybe the enzymes keep the eggs from getting moldy and covered in fungus.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I don't believe I've read anything about the eggs being placed there, just the tads.

s :? 


hicksonj said:


> Maybe the enzymes keep the eggs from getting moldy and covered in fungus.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2004)

If something holds water, vents will lay in it.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Interesting.

I've kept my "main" pair of Vents now for 7 years or so. Raised them from tads. I've probably had about 250 froglets from this one pair!

Anyhow... 95% of the time they lay in a film cannister and I pull the eggs. That other 5% of the time - they lay *somewhere*, never have figured out where, and then transport the tads to the same place they would normally lay their eggs!

So even though their normal laying spot was available, with water in it, they chose to lay somewhere else and transport to that spot.

I am not sure why, but I was guessing that's what they did with the Pitcher Plant.

s


hicksonj said:


> If something holds water, vents will lay in it.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2004)

I have had vents mate in containers of water that were so deep, that the pair had to have deposited and fertilized the eggs completely under water. This isn't much of a surprise though, since mine will spend long expanses of time hiding in film canisters full of water. The line I have is from Justin Bragg, who has witnessed them swimming around and diving beneath their water feature.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Just to return to the original question of whether people have had success keeping darts with pitchers, I will add that I have had good luck keeping N. 'Judith Finn' (a forgiving highland hybrid according to D'Amato) with my tincs. Whenever the pitchers would start to get alarmingly large, I would just cut the vine back to the last pitcher that was a reasonable size and pot the cutting up to give away. It takes a while for the original plant to bounce back, but it usually puts off new branches and sooner or later begins developing pitchers again that are smaller than the big ones that I was worried about--at least for a while.

Just my experience.


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

I am not telling anyone to run out and but pitcher plants to keep with their darts. I am aware that in theory, the enzimes of the pitcher could be harmfull to tadpoles but in reality, I have experienced just the opposite. I discovered this by accident but found it to be interesting. It seems like I am the only one who has found this so it might be a fluke but a years worth of tadpoles and froglets (sold to many of you) seem pretty convencing to me. 

-Blake


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Blake - do they lay the eggs in the pitcher also?

s


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Scott-

No eggs in the pitchers only on bromeliads.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Like I said, the enzymes have had no effect on Rhacophorus frogs that have a symbiotic relationship. Many animals like spiders also use the traps for cover in nature. Its when the prey drowns (cannot escape) when the enzymes work. They are too weak up until that point. I forget why though. Plus, N. ampullaria was designed to catch more rainwater, therefore relying more on bacterial action to digest prey.

Sorry, I forgot to reply to the post earlier.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

"Its when the prey drowns (cannot escape) when the enzymes work. They are too weak up until that point." 

I think that answears alot of questions. And I feel that most frogs would be pretty safe and would have no prob getting out of most pitcher plants. And I imagine if there is enough water in them the tads should do fine also.


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