# Plants on Leaf Litter/Substrate Question - ????



## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi Guys, 

My vivarium is still fairly new and I am going through the planting phase. I have ABG mix and on top of it approximately 2 inches of leaf litter.

My question is... i have purchased some plants from Understories and they are really small right now... their root system isn't even two inches... so if i try to plant them in the substrate the leaf litter would cover the entire plant!

How do I deal with this? Do i just plant the plant in the leaf litter instead of the abg mix? Or does the plant have to make it all the way in the ABG mix? If it has to make it all the way int he ABG how do i prevent the leaf litter from covering the plant?

Why does this seem so confusing?!!?!? 

Some direction would be much appreciated.... 

I have purchased a few terrestrial plants


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Just make a little clearing. Plant it in the substrate. Tuck a little bit of leaf litter back in around it. It will grow soon enough and you can pack some more leaf litter around it. 
Alternatively, you could make a clearing, build up a small mound of substrate, and plant it in there. Put the leaf litter back in place around it. That will elevate the new plant a little bit so you can see it better.


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## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks again Doug... And again and again!

What about the clippings? How I described above?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Generally, you need to get the stems down into the substrate/ABG. The leaf litter won't keep them moist enough unless it has decomposed into a humus, in which case the leaf litter has pretty much become substrate. I don't think your viv is old enough for this to have happened.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

I usually let my plants establish a root system for at least a week (preferably more) before i add leaf litter. It takes a little longer to start a viv, but it is definately worth it in my experience. Springtails start populating quickly even without leaf litter, isopods seem to do better with the leaf litter already there in my experience and so I add them a little later.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

When setting up a new tank, I crush the leaf litter into a much smaller size. I then put a thin layer of that on top of my substrate. It hold more moisture for cuttings to establish, it breaks down faster for microfauna, and it acts as a secondary layer to help aerate the soil. Then when im ready to add frogs, and the plants are all established, I put in a decorative top coat of leaf litter.


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## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Okay... so i'm a bit confused...

Doug i've done with you said... i've spread the leaves apart and piled up abg in the hole and planted it so the plant would at least be above the leaves!

But the cuttings... i dont quite get this... obviously i want to see the cuttings... and i didn't think of growing all my plants before putting leaf litter in... i did grow some... now i have spingtails and leaf litter in my tank and here i am trying to add cuttings....

what is the objective here? to get one of the ends of the cuttings in the substrate? and pull the other end out above the leaf litter? or just bury the entire cutting????????


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

You'll just want to plant the cut side of the cutting into the substrate, depending on the plant species it should root relatively quickly with the light/himuidity. Keep the leading end (the non cut side of the cutting) out of the substrate. They're small now so not much might be visible, but they'll grow in soon enough.


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## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

thanks a lot


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The cut end (the stem) should be about 1/2" or so into the substrate. The leaf end needs to be exposed and getting good light.
Another option is to establish them and grow them for a few weeks outside your viv. Here are some simple instructions for that. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/79872-bad-plant-order-good-deal-2.html


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

One of the things I tend to do when adding new plants to the tank is keep the tank a higher humidity than I would normally, and only have the first or second thin layer of leaf litter (I usually start with something a little more flat like wet oak leaves that I've used to make tadpole tea). This basically turns it into a high humidity greenhouse where the leaf litter should still be humid enough that the plants don't dry out. I then usually just drop the cuttings and young plants on top of a thin layer of leaf and let them get established. As they do, I add a bit more leaf litter. This stage is purely just for terrestrial stuff that needs rooting as a lot of the epiphytes don't want this high humidity, that's usually my second planting step.

I do NOT recommend planting them IN the substrate - if you give them access and humidity they will find their own way there. Cuttings especially can be problematic - you've got a stem with nodes on it. The nodes produce roots when they are in contact with something moist, but the stem can rot if it's IN that substrate constantly moist. The cuttings just need to be in contact, and the more nodes in contact the more rooting you will get and faster, with less rot (sticking one end in the substrate really limits the nodes in contact). The potted plants can find the substrate just as easily, and less roots may actually be better. I usually cut most of the roots off anyways and toss them in. It causes the plant to work on creating a new root system rather than trying to save old roots from different conditions that will eventually just rot anyways.

I prefer young plants as they adapt better than older plants grown in different conditions.


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## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Kero,

Thanks for the reply. Very interesting. 

Just a little more insight about my situation. 

1) My substrate does not have peat moss in it. It is a mixture of orchard bark, charcoal, cork bark, sphagnum moss forgot the other stuff. Basically ABG without the peat. So it isn't very heavy and drains well. I am telling you this because sometimes I find it harder to plant stuff in a substrate like this oppose to one that has the dirt like texture and feel. 

2) I put about two inches of oak leaf litter. I did try an break it up a bit but they seem to still be in mid to large size pieces. 

3) I find it hard to really get the cuttings theology the leaf litter and buried Into the substrate and leaf litter. I pushed one end of the cuttings through the leaf litter. But I am unsure how deep into the substrate they are reslly making it. I do not believe it is very far. I then pulled the other end out above the leaf litter. 

From what you are saying these will still root? I am worried they may all die. You are saying you place your cuttings on. Top of a thin crushed layer of leaf litter and they still root?

So do you think mine will root no problem? Or should I pull it all out and figure something else out?

Thanks a lot


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

1) I hate peat moss and refuse to use it in my substrates, so we use the same kind of substrate mix. I call it "ghetto ABG". Even in the original ABG the peat moss used was actually more like peat bricks broken up into chunks. Replicating that you can use the coco husk chips. What really keeps this substrate happy is a drainage layer with water in it (never more than half is a good rule so you don't flood the tank when watering), and a leaf layer above it to hold in the humidity from the drainage layer. I like using LECA because it will wick some of that water to the substrate without saturating it, and I build up my leaf litter layer in layers that hold the humidity in better as well as make it easier for planting.

Dirt like texture and feel over a drainage layer with water in it = mud in rainforest tanks. The higher the humidity, the less water the substrate should hold. So far loving the set up.

2) Sounds like a good layer for the final product, but you may want to make it more shallow in the initial planting stage - you can just pull it out and put it in a bag for now. I'd recommend the first layer to be some oak leaves you've boiled (like the recipe for tadpole tea) - this will soften them up to the point of being floppy and like thick wet paper. Spread it over the substrate like paper mache... just cover it all. This is your initial humidity trapping layer (that is usually partially decomposed leaves). This is also some of the most hospital to plant cuttings. You can drizzle more on top.

3) Since you're really worried about your cuttings here is an alternative to help you plant - good quality long fiber sphagnum moss (like the new zealand stuff black jungle sells - love it! I always have some around). Take some warm water and a handful of the moss, dunk the moss and squeeze like a dry sponge (it may take some more squeezing - they are super dry but you can tell when the water gets into the fibers and soften it up). Pull the hanful out of the water, and wring most of the water out (***This is the key step often left out! Saturated sphagnum rots - barely moist sphagnum is like gold). You can either elect to sit the cuttings on this and grow in a separate container under some nice lights until they root, or sit the cuttings on a layer of sphagnum in the tank. I usually do in a separate container just so they are nice and strong before going into the tank which can be more variable. Any clear container (salad container, chinese food box, plastic baggy) can work. Once they are established they get tossed (moss and all) onto the spot of leaf litter I want them. The moss is another good cap layer so you can scoot all the leaves out of the way and sit it directly on the ghetto ABG, or sit it on top of that initial layer and surround it with leaves and stuff. Once the plants grow in, you can cover the moss up more with leaves. This process is also handy for starting some of the more epiphytic vines and such since they need a moist spot to grow from, and will range out from there.

Starting them on the moss is the same as I mentioned before - if they are viney types they have multiple nodes on a cutting, and you want as many in contact as possible. Just lay them on top. Same can be done with the potted plants - pull them out of the pots, shake off the substrate, trim the roots down to about the inch, sit them on top of the moss, let them root. You may lose some leaves or sections, but hopefully you shouldn't lose ALL the cuttings. If you can provide a list and/or pics I can help from there.


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## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Kero,

Thanks again..........

Glad to hear we are on a simliar page.

1) I did not use LECA I used a false bottom. I do not have much water in my false button... i did not fill it up with an inch of water... I didn't think there was a need as my humidty is always between 85% to 95%.

2) I think it is to late for me to change my leaf litter or change how I put it in... I already added springtails and isopods. And to be honest... I'd prefer NOT to change it if I do not need to. 

3) the way I described my leaf litter, my substrate, and cuttings do you believe they will grow? If so I do not want to change anything.

Just to recap what I basically did was... push one end of the cutting through the leaf litter and touching the substrate at the very least... i tried to push them into the substrate to be honest... I think some made it into the substrate some may be on surface, but below the leaves...

Think it will grow? If so I would rather leave it than get into a second tank, more spaghum moss, new lights, transplanting and all that.

Thanks Kero


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

1) Not horrible, but not the "best". The LECA wicking bit was only recently noticed... I've always used loose substrate drainage layers (I *HATE* false bottoms, and they were the first tanks I was exposed to) and switched to LECA as soon as I could afford it... that being more than 10 years ago I didn't know the added benefits. One friend remarked on the difference after switching, I pestered a few other about it, and it seems a consistent benefit. Make or break? No, but something to think about on the next tank. Just make sure there is always water in your false bottom and that you and your frogs have access to that water (you to drain it easily, the frogs because it's a giant reservoir that will largely be covered by substrate layers so there won't be much evaporation).

For health of the frog and plant reasons I keep the above substrate humidity lower than 85% so that there are dry spots. The substrate should have have that nice high humidity though, and in theory if your air does, and you have water below the substrate, it will be somewhere in between. The leaf litter layers in mine are built up in a way to promote a "lid" to the substrate so the lower air humidity doesn't suck up a lot of humidity from the substrate (and drainage layer). This is more important with frogs you seasonally cycle than frogs you keep the same humidity all year long (but most PDFs do better with at least a little bit of seasons).

2) No problem, it's like the above - don't have to change it now but you can think about it for the next tank (believe me, there will be another one. There is ALWAYS another one  ). If for some reason you DID want to move leaf litter WITH isos and springs already in it over the short term (I was only recommending the top layer, they should mostly be in the substrate), just make sure to put it in a ziploc bag or airtight container with some moisture. The critters will live there happily until you want to put it back in 

3) It may be a little more hit and miss - my tips and tricks were modifications to the style you described that helped me have a higher rate of success. Your plants will tell you how happy they are with water, most of them will go floppy if they don't get enough. The long fiber sphagnum moss (DO NOT get Wisconsin moss, get new zealand, chile, or peruvian with as little debris as you can) can be added to help them out a little, and can also raise them a little higher up in the leaf litter but give them access to moisture (you can just spray the moss when it starts getting too dry, but with your high humidity it may not need it - you want it barely moist not wet).

All of the cuttings on the list will root all along the stems you were sent, and would be better laying on a substrate (like the moss). If you get moss I'd just put it under the parts of the string not in good contact with moist substrate. If the plants from pots look a bit floppy, you can put some of the moss around the base of them as well. I've actually grown and rooted all of those in the LFS moss at one time or another  If they drop leaves, but other leaves are happy and healthy looking just leave them - they are adapting to their new home. Begonia leaves are sometimes shed and will actually fall to the substrate and root new plantlets... I have a "Manuas" that had cold damage on a leaf, dropped it, and actually rooted babies as the leaf was melting. Go figure... but all the plants you got are pros at making sure in SOME way of surviving given half a chance 

I'm sure you'll get around to a second tank, more sphagnum moss, new lights, transplanting, and all that, but it will be more likely because you just want another tank!


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## frankrom (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks again - looks ilke great info... i'll be breaking this down a bit more whne I get home.

FR


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