# Mystery Tinc Morph



## Leidig

For Christmas I got this great book called Poison Frogs: Biology, Species, & Captive Husbandry by Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt. Its an amazing book with hundreds of great photos and information. However, while showing many differnt morphs of the frogs it stays pretty scientific and doesn't say what the layman named color morph is. I'm hoping someone can help me to identify it. If you have the book it image figure 701 on page number 554. The best I could do is take a picture of the picture in the book so the image here is pretty crummy. Anyway, hopefully someone here will recognize it. Thanks.

I cant figure out how to get the picture posted so here is a link to it.

MobileMe]MobileMe Gallery Gallery


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## edwing206

I read that it was a new species a while ago and yesterday I read that it was a crossbreed. Not really sure what it is...looks awesome though.


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## Ed

Many years ago I had seen a similar picture and asked Jack Cover about it and he told me it was a real morph but the locality was being undisclosed to prevent poaching. 

Ed


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## thedude

heh, i received that book for xmas as well! it is a really great book. it is too bad they do not mention localities of the morphs though, that would make it easier to tell which should be bred together. however, that is good that that one is being witheld. you can bet many people would want to get their hands on that morph.


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## Marinarawr

I've also seen that photo somewhere on the web. I think it was actually in another thread here... Certainly a jaw-dropping frog but it won't hurt my feelings if they never come to the hobby. Congrats on the frogger loot for Christmas!


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## Julio

there was a dicussion goign on here not too long ago about that frog, many were saying it was a cross between a regina and azurues.


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## markpulawski

Ed said:


> Many years ago I had seen a similar picture and asked Jack Cover about it and he told me it was a real morph but the locality was being undisclosed to prevent poaching.
> 
> Ed


I had heard the same thing, i believe it came in an article about a new preserve and discovering 20 - 30 new species of different animals, that Tinc was 1 of them (a presumed Tinc at the time).


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## Woodsman

The caption says that it is from the Estado Amapi, Brazil. The reddish parts and "splashy-nis" are like red D. galactonotus and (since the frog is from Brazil), could this be a frog from an area where D. tinctorius and D. galactonotus have range-overlaps?


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## Leidig

Woodsman said:


> The caption says that it is from the Estado Amapi, Brazil. The reddish parts and "splashy-nis" are like red D. galactonotus and (since the frog is from Brazil), could this be a frog from an area where D. tinctorius and D. galactonotus have range-overlaps?


I thought about that too, but because the Dendrobates tinctorius and the Adelphobates galactonotus are not from the same genus I was under the impression that any offspring produces would be sterile. I could easily be wrong though. Its definitely a beautiful frog.


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## Manuran

Photos of newly discovered species in Brazil's Amazon rainforest


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## Philsuma

just hard to believe that frog is a naturally occuring morph and not a hybrid. 

All it takes is a pic of a cool looking frog and campesino children are coming back with some...


and you all know the joke about the "new species", right?

*Question:* What's the flapping sound we hear everytime a new frog species is discovered?

*Answer:* European passports being opened and closed...


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## Leidig

Manuran said:


> Photos of newly discovered species in Brazil's Amazon rainforest


Thanks for posting this.


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## SeanyG

that looks like an azure mixed with an orange (Dendrobates galactonotus).

So if that is an existing natural mix... Hmmm


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## JeremyHuff

SeanyG said:


> that looks like an azure mixed with an orange (Dendrobates galactonotus).
> 
> So if that is an existing natural mix... Hmmm


The question should be is, how many were found? Was this a single, sterile individual, or is there a population?

Jeremy


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## SeanyG

Good point.


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## dartsami

Could this be the elusive 'red tinctorius' that the Suriname exporters have been hunting for years?


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## Leidig

dartsami said:


> Could this be the elusive 'red tinctorius' that the Suriname exporters have been hunting for years?


 According to Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt its found in Estado Amapa Brazil.


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## Leidig

Manuran said:


> Photos of newly discovered species in Brazil's Amazon rainforest


Here is another reference of it being from Estado Amapa Brazil.


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## stemcellular

Philsuma said:


> just hard to believe that frog is a naturally occuring morph and not a hybrid.
> 
> All it takes is a pic of a cool looking frog and campesino children are coming back with some...
> 
> 
> and you all know the joke about the "new species", right?
> 
> *Question:* What's the flapping sound we hear everytime a new frog species is discovered?
> 
> *Answer:* European passports being opened and closed...


Interesting, the joke I've heard was what happens right after a new frog species is discovered... two Germans buy plane tickets.


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## Philsuma

yeah....I put my own little spin on it and tried not to be country specific, but that's the exact way I heard it first too...


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## NathalieB

Philsuma said:


> yeah....I put my own little spin on it and tried not to be country specific, but that's the exact way I heard it first too...


no go ahead... offend all Europeans because Germany is smugglers-paradise... much better


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## Philsuma

.....can't win either way....

WE have frog smugglers in this country too.


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## Ed

JeremyHuff said:


> The question should be is, how many were found? Was this a single, sterile individual, or is there a population?
> 
> Jeremy


The collection of a single animal cannot be construed that it s a hybrid or even a novel species. The D. tincorius morphs do along the Guiana shield down into Brazil so I would learn towards to being a D. tinctorius... (see http://bnoonan.org/Papers/Noonan_Gaucher_06.pdf) as the range of galactanotus is a little further south and doesn't overlap. See http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/PDFs/Robertsetal.HerpJ_Dendrobates_2007.pdf 





Ed


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## JeremyHuff

Ed,
I wasn't suggesting a new species. I just wonder if it is a cross between two morphs of tinctorius, or if there is a healthy population which exhibit those colors and pattern.

Jeremy



Ed said:


> The collection of a single animal cannot be construed that it s a hybrid or even a novel species. The D. tincorius morphs do along the Guiana shield down into Brazil so I would learn towards to being a D. tinctorius... (see http://bnoonan.org/Papers/Noonan_Gaucher_06.pdf) as the range of galactanotus is a little further south and doesn't overlap. See http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/PDFs/Robertsetal.HerpJ_Dendrobates_2007.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


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## prolawn_care

Looks like a local species from here in Colorado! 

They are being managed by a guy name Josh Mcdaniels, and owned by a guy that goes by the name Pat Bowlen....

Just kidding! 

But it's definatley pretty sweet looking! Wonder how much it will hit the market for???


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## rpmurphey

I think this frog would be crossed with D. tinctorius. 'Brasil'. with maybe D. tinctorius. 'Weygoldt'.

The localities are close to each other but there is a slim possiblility that both morphs have over lapping territories.

That's just my oppinion.


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## Ed

JeremyHuff said:


> Ed,
> I wasn't suggesting a new species. I just wonder if it is a cross between two morphs of tinctorius, or if there is a healthy population which exhibit those colors and pattern.
> 
> Jeremy


Hi Jeremy,

From what I was told it was a population all on its own... 


Ed


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## Ed

rpmurphey said:


> I think this frog would be crossed with D. tinctorius. 'Brasil'. with maybe D. tinctorius. 'Weygoldt'.
> 
> The localities are close to each other but there is a slim possiblility that both morphs have over lapping territories.
> 
> That's just my oppinion.


While close, they don't overlap according to the literature... Many of the tinct populations are close but seperate. The areas between the populations as discussed in the first link I posted above have been seperate with no genetic exchange for a long time.. they are effectively small isolations... 

Ed


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## skylsdale

stemcellular said:


> Interesting, the joke I've heard was what happens right after a new frog species is discovered... two Germans buy plane tickets.


And I heard the gnawing sound is from all the Americans chomping at the bit to get the "legal" offspring into the U.S. hobby (while at the same time decrying the smuggling that made them possible).

Regarding this tinctorius morph, it's worth considering that the coloration and pattern isn't necessarily indicative of the entire population, but that particular individual might just have just looked like this and the rest of the frogs might appear quite different.


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## Woodsman

I would hope that, given that the frog is from Brazil and from the Tumucumaque National Park area, we could all agree ahead of time to shun anyone who actually has the insane idea of trying to find this frog, smuggle it out of the National Park and out of a country that grants no expermits for dendrobatid frogs.

It may be funny for some to joke about illegal smuggling, but I find it disquieting. As we no, there are numerous frogs in the hobby that really have been smuggled from the wild, had their "paperwork" cleaned-up, and now reside proudly in promonent American collection.

Shouldn't we be at least a little embarrased by this? Maybe we just "love" these frogs too much, to the death of them.

IMO, Richard.


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## SeanyG

Can we take into affect that many of these frog are collected by the indigenous peoples that reside in the area for their poisons. Could the possibility be that peoples from one area that collected these frogs had to relocate because of say deforestation and when they moved possible brought these forgs with them and maybe some got loose, and mixed with the local pop of frogs.

Just a thought...


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## Boondoggle

SeanyG said:


> Can we take into affect that many of these frog are collected by the indigenous peoples that reside in the area for their poisons. Could the possibility be that peoples from one area that collected these frogs had to relocate because of say deforestation and when they moved possible brought these forgs with them and maybe some got loose, and mixed with the local pop of frogs.
> 
> Just a thought...


I could be wrong, but I thought only Phyllobates were actually used for darts.


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## ChrisK

Woodsman said:


> It may be funny for some to joke about illegal smuggling, but I find it disquieting. As we no, there are numerous frogs in the hobby that really have been smuggled from the wild, had their "paperwork" cleaned-up, and now reside proudly in promonent American collection.
> 
> Shouldn't we be at least a little embarrased by this? Maybe we just "love" these frogs too much, to the death of them.
> 
> IMO, Richard.


Unless someone's frogs are WC imports (or offspring) through a reputable importer with proof, how does anyone possibly know that their frogs (or their frogs' lineage) are not of smuggled origin?


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## Leidig

Woodsman said:


> I would hope that, given that the frog is from Brazil and from the Tumucumaque National Park area, we could all agree ahead of time to shun anyone who actually has the insane idea of trying to find this frog, smuggle it out of the National Park and out of a country that grants no expermits for dendrobatid frogs.
> 
> It may be funny for some to joke about illegal smuggling, but I find it disquieting. As we no, there are numerous frogs in the hobby that really have been smuggled from the wild, had their "paperwork" cleaned-up, and now reside proudly in promonent American collection.
> 
> Shouldn't we be at least a little embarrased by this? Maybe we just "love" these frogs too much, to the death of them.
> 
> IMO, Richard.


No one was talking about trying to obtain one illegally. I posed the question asking what its possible morph specific name is. Like a I stated earlier, I found this image in the book by Lotters, Jungfer, Henkel, and Schmidt under Dendrobates tinctorius. It is not a cross/hyrid morph but an actual single morph. I don't even think there is one in captivity. I think the population is protected by a national park in Estade Amapa Brazil. Could it find its way into the hobby by means of smuggling? Yes! Should it. No! and no one is expecting nor wants it to be.


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## Leidig

Boondoggle said:


> I could be wrong, but I thought only Phyllobates were actually used for darts.


From everything I've read and studied, thats correct. Phyllobates possess the toxin, batrachotoxin, which is one of the most potent toxins in all of the animal kingdom. Other darts in the Dendrobatoidea family cant even store the toxin, even if it is supplied in their food sorce. Interestingly, The Wai-Wai Indians of Guyana use the D. tinctorius (the frog this thread is about) to enhance the scenting capabilities of their dogs by rubbing the frogs of the dogs nose.


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