# How much should the drainage layer be above the water level?



## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

I have already read a lot on this forum, but still cannot find an answer to my question.

How much should the drainage layer be above the water level?

I am asking this because I want to have a pond section in my tank. At the moment my drainage layer is 3 "high (lava rocks) and my water level 2" high. The picture shows how things are now. The honeycomb shape is my false bottom with no lava rock in it. It is an eggcrate replacement.

I feel that there is a lot of wicking taking place. It looks realy moist. Or is this perfect for putting on the substrate so that it remains constantly moist? Ofcourse a piece of mesh is layed on top before the substrate is going to be added .

I hope you can help me with this so that the rest can be built up very soon 

Thanks in advance!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yes, one of the reasons that dart keepers shy away from water features is that they can make the substrate way too wet.

What size viv is this? You're going to be getting a lot of height with substrate on top of all this yet. 

What animals is this intended to house?


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I like to allow for _at least_ a one inch air gap between the water line and the bottom of my egg crate false bottom. Even then, I still put a layer of hydroton/leca, and a layer of charcoal above that, which I've found to provide an excellent habitat for springtails. I see them all over the leca in the tanks where I can still see the layers. Above those layers, I place my ABG mix or turface, depending on which I'm using.


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Yes, one of the reasons that dart keepers shy away from water features is that they can make the substrate way too wet.
> 
> What size viv is this? You're going to be getting a lot of height with substrate on top of all this yet.
> 
> What animals is this intended to house?


The size of the viv is 24” x 18” x 24”. No animals will be kept in for the time being until everything is running smoothly. First I want to see what is possible and whether everything is going well. By the time everything is running smoothly, the bottom of the pond will be raised. This so that the frogs cannot drown. The main reason why I want the water level to be relatively high is so that I can run a pump. With this pump a river stream is created (no waterfall because it can splash too much and soak the substrate). Another advantage is that the water never comes to a standstill and starts to "rot".


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Woodswalker said:


> I like to allow for _at least_ a one inch air gap between the water line and the bottom of my egg crate false bottom. Even then, I still put a layer of hydroton/leca, and a layer of charcoal above that, which I've found to provide an excellent habitat for springtails. I see them all over the leca in the tanks where I can still see the layers. Above those layers, I place my ABG mix or turface, depending on which I'm using.


Thanks for your reply. The current setup can work like this you think? I have not yet received the pump, but if it also works with less water in the drainage layer, the water level will of course go down to be sure.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

KennyS said:


> No animals will be kept in for the time being until everything is running smoothly.


The reason I asked this is because I see a trouble spot along the shoreline underwater -- where the water goes between the rocks and under the substrate. Frogs/tads can get under the substrate and not remove themselves, in my own unfortunate experience. 

In my case, tads were deposited without me noticing and two got into the Matala in spite of there being a weedblock barrier in place. One I managed to remove with a lot of trouble, and one died under there.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I notice you would like to keep Auratus, Tinctorius or Hyloxalus in your introduction.

If this is the case, I can only highly recommend to get rid of the waterfeature and scrap the idea. This will have absolutely no benefit for the frogs and waterfeatures come with a lot of risk! 
The only benefit the waterfeature has is that it is pleasing for the eye of the beholder, that's it.


The frogs that you are looking to keep live in humid rainforest, but the understory they live in consist mostly out of leaflitter and dry substrate. So it is important for the welbeeing of the frogs that you recreate their habitat as close as possible.

Hope this helps,

Greets.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

To give you an idea :





During a dryer period :


This recent Tinctorius study is also very interesting to help understand how the frogs behave to their enviroment :









From habitat use to social behavior: natural history of a voiceless poison frog, Dendrobates tinctorius


Descriptive studies of natural history have always been a source of knowledge on which experimental work and scientific progress rely. Poison frogs are a well-studied group of small Neotropical frogs with diverse parental behaviors, distinct calls, and bright colors that warn predators about...




peerj.com


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The reason I asked this is because I see a trouble spot along the shoreline underwater -- where the water goes between the rocks and under the substrate.


They are temporarily like that. They are going to be glued together. With a grinder I intended to grind very shallow slots so that the water can still move.


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Tijl said:


> The only benefit the waterfeature has is that it is pleasing for the eye of the beholder, that's it.


You are absolutely right! If it is going to be disadvantageous to the frogs then the plan will be changed of course, but it will be beautiful if it can be done like this.

This is also the reason that I build up layer by layer and see what happens. At first the drainage layer seemed to be good. Two days later it looks very damp.

You can only do it right once of course.

Photos are always great to get a good impression of a natural habitat. The article also provides a lot of information! Thank you for that.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

You are very welcome. Keep us updatet on your build and process!


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

As someone who is implementing a water feature them self, let me add a few things here:

1 - With your current setup, be aware that you're going to be *very *limited on terrestrial plants with a setup like this. Your entire ground area is going to be too wet for most root structures to thrive without rotting
2 - Your shoreline is a bit too steep. You'd be better off rather than having stacked rocks like that, to move into something with a nice slope so if a frog did fall in, they could get out easier. I'm also with @Socratic Monologue on that there are a lot of nooks and crannies in the water area where someone could get stuck and drown.


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> 1 - With your current setup, be aware that you're going to be *very *limited on terrestrial plants with a setup like this. Your entire ground area is going to be too wet for most root structures to thrive without rotting


I don't mind the limiting terrestrial plant choice. Mainly epiphytes go into the tank. There will be pieces of wood on the bottom. The main thing is that the soil does not get bad. And more importantly, the frogs are not bothered by it.



Tihsho said:


> 2 - Your shoreline is a bit too steep. I'm also with @Socratic Monologue on that there are a lot of nooks and crannies in the water area where someone could get stuck and drown.


I will adjust the shoreline in such a way that it will no longer be a problem. The stones are now temporarily there to try out some things. I want to make a river stream. For the pump there is no other option than that there is a layer of water in the drainage layer to be sucked up I guess.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

You're also planning on putting a stream in this setup? If so I'd reassess. with a 24x18 floor print you're already limiting yourself with a loss of floor space with a water feature. Water features should be limited to small 'puddles' at best in vivs with more length, such as 36x18 minimum. Anything too complex or large is not only adding risk, but taking up valuable surface area that the frogs can use. Yes frogs will sit in a puddle every so often to rehydrate, but you want a majority of the area in a viv to dry out for them as Darts are not an aquatic species. Auratus will be more active and seem to enjoy water more than the rest of the darts, but it's not a drastic 'need' to go from a damp environment to an environment that is starting to boarder aquatic. A puddle or an area that has water dripping is more than enough for them in the vivaria. 

If you're looking for something more appealing to the eyes you're going to be bumping up your floor print significantly (read: you'll be building a greenhouse.)


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Okay a river stream sounds big, but that is not the intention. The idea is more to let the water drip into the pond instead of flowing. Don't know what else to call it. But you are right. Maybe letting the water directly dripping over the edge of the shoreline is an idea?


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

But the big question I have still remains. Is the water wicking up a problem or will the substrate hold up well with this setup? I am also going to make the pond a little bit smaller btw (if it will work at all)


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

I would skip having a river or any flowing water at all. The water wicking up will be a problem if the top of the water comes into contact with the bottom of your substrate, or if it gets sogged out by the irregular paths your river will sometimes take, along with any splashing it may create, however minimal it may seem visually. The same goes for letting water drip along the shoreline.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Having a dripping water feature is a challenge all in itself. Most people are going to expect the feature to be running 24/7, and well that's not ideal for the environment. Flowing water will inevitably bring up the overall humidity to the enclosure, so having times where there is no water flowing and nothing is being misted gives the ambient air a chance to dry out along with the surfaces. Besides that, as @Woodswalker mentioned, splashing will happen and because it's a random act, you can't prevent it from happening all over your substrate. In a larger enclosure you can create a 'pond' that has the water and the substrate 100% separated, but scaling that down causes an issue. 

As I'm working on something similar to you, but with a longer enclosure, I opted to skip an ABG/soil substrate. As I'm focusing on epiphytes for plants and the substrate won't provide me too much due to the water, I'm just going with a moss/leaf litter combo to cover my drainage layer. This will allow any water during misting/my dripping feature to drain directly through the false bottom and not be captured and wicked into a soil like media.


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Thank you all for this information!


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> I opted to skip an ABG/soil substrate. As I'm focusing on epiphytes for plants and the substrate won't provide me too much due to the water, I'm just going with a moss/leaf litter combo to cover my drainage layer. This will allow any water during misting/my dripping feature to drain directly through the false bottom and not be captured and wicked into a soil like media.


Have you tried this before without substrate? Moss also retains a lot of moisture. Can this be combined with frogs this way? I would love to see the pictures


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

KennyS said:


> Have you tried this before without substrate? Moss also retains a lot of moisture. Can this be combined with frogs this way? I would love to see the pictures


This is my first Viv using this process. I'm actually trying a method that was posted by Troy Goldberg, check out his YouTube channel to see some of his setups.


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> This is my first Viv using this process. I'm actually trying a method that was posted by Troy Goldberg, check out his YouTube channel to see some of his setups.


I'll take a look at it.

I'm curious if this will work. I do think the moss should be replaced every two years. Maybe even earlier. I have a terrarium with orchids and the sphag moss must be replaced after two years. You will notice that it becomes a bit mushy. Unless it is living moss then it is not necessary.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

KennyS said:


> I'll take a look at it.
> 
> I'm curious if this will work. I do think the moss should be replaced every two years. Maybe even earlier. I have a terrarium with orchids and the sphag moss must be replaced after two years. You will notice that it becomes a bit mushy. Unless it is living moss then it is not necessary.


Oops let me clarify, there is a mistake on my part that left the wrong assumption. I'm not talking about rehydrated sphag, I'm talking about living moss like christmas moss. A majority of the surface I'm going for will be covered with leave litter, there will be a few areas that I'll have small patches of live moss growing. The moss will not only break up how the ground will look, but it will also be close to the 'puddle' so that it can stay hydrated. This will be the only constantly damp part of my ground area. Using sphag as a substrate in a viv is a big no no, not only does it stay constantly water logged (for the most part), but as you said it should be replaced. When it's part of a substrate mix it's not a big deal, but stand alone, it's not a great substrate.


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## KennyS (Oct 28, 2020)

Tihsho said:


> I'm not talking about rehydrated sphag, I'm talking about living moss like christmas moss.


Jup this clarifies a lot and makes much more sense


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Moss can't be used as substrate since frogs NEED dry substrate to live on.

Again, if you want to keep Dart frogs in an enclosure you should recreate their habitat as close as possible. They evoled to live in that environment.

It looks like what you try to build here not even come close to that environment and is not going to suit any dart frog what will be very hazardous for them.
Mayebe mossfrogs or firebellytoads are more suited for your build. But even then you have to up your build in making it perfect for one of these.

Frogs van live for quite long. It's abvious you want to give them the best life possible in captivity by providing everything they need.


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Tijl said:


> Moss can't be used as substrate since frogs NEED dry substrate to live on.


I'm talking like one or two total 2" patches, not a full sheet that's a majority of the area.



Tijl said:


> Again, if you want to keep Dart frogs in an enclosure you should recreate their habitat as close as possible. They evoled to live in that environment.
> 
> It looks like what you try to build here not even come close to that environment and is not going to suit any dart frog what will be very hazardous for them.
> Mayebe mossfrogs or firebellytoads are more suited for your build. But even then you have to up your build in making it perfect for one of these.
> ...


From my understanding a thick leaf litter is suitable, is this not correct? I've seen plenty of builds that use clay based substrate rather than ABG, so I don't see what the problem is by replacing the clay with another drainage layer material and then layering leaf litter on top.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Tihsho said:


> I'm talking like one or two total 2" patches, not a full sheet that's a majority of the area.
> 
> 
> 
> From my understanding a thick leaf litter is suitable, is this not correct? I've seen plenty of builds that use clay based substrate rather than ABG, so I don't see what the problem is by replacing the clay with another drainage layer material and then layering leaf litter on top.


 I think you misunderstand cause I'm not refering to your build or answer, but to the OP's topic.

Ofc you are correct by using only the small moss patches and good drainage with leaflitter on top.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> I think you misunderstand cause I'm not refering to your build or answer, but to the OP's topic.
> 
> Ofc you are correct by using only the small moss patches and good drainage with leaflitter on top.


The only thing to look out for with moss is that for most varieties, you will be tempted to keep the humidity higher than you would have otherwise just to keep the moss happy. Many mosses available in the hobby like high humidity - usually higher than is good for dart frogs (this is the issue I have with people saying that these super-green, mossy tanks with running/open water are appropriate habitats for dart frogs). The trick is figuring out how to maintain locally higher humidity without requiring the whole tank to be that humid. Water features are the easiest way to do this, but again you are running the risk of keeping the humidity too high. What I do in my tanks with moss (of course I like moss, too, it looks awesome!) is put it up off the substrate on wood, preferably where it is right in the path of one of my misting nozzles, and keep the humidity of the tank in the range appropriate for dart frogs (that's all I keep in my tanks). If it grows under those conditions, great! If it doesn't make it, that's fine, too, as long as the frogs are kept in appropriate conditions. I don't require moss, but if grows in the conditions that are good for the frogs, I welcome it.

Mark


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

One thing I think is gravely overlooked within this hobby is active ventilation. There are a lot of things that can be accomplished and provide a healthy ground for darts as well as more lush flora, but it just takes additional work and hardware. I think a lot of people are focused on the whole "glass cage" aspect and don't like to admit that there is a further step that can be taken as to no be limited by an enclosed glass box with passive air flow.

The hobby has thankfully moved from being stuck with solely an enclosure, a spray bottle and then the right song and dance to keep things going to actually moving with the age of technology and leveraging automation. I bet some of the best Viv's that we see wouldn't look as great without having automated misting! Now I think we just need to take it to the next step and promote automated gas exchange rather than limit ourselves to convection. Yes, fans internal to circulate air is great, but if the overall air within our glass boxes are old stale air, what's the point? We need to be able to safely simulate natural airflow as well as provide fresh new air inside the enclosures without having to remove lids regularly and open doors. I can't tell you how many posts I've read back in the day that focused on 'sealed' enclosures that limited the external gas exchange to doors opening for feeding time. Thankfully someone(s) took the time to experiment and provide facts that fresh air exchange within our Viv's is vital for both Flora and Fauna.

When it comes to tropical epiphytic mosses, yes damp conditions are ideal for their growth, but keep in mind in nature, that damp condition is promoted generally with shade and regular rainfall. Oddly enough, some of these mosses appear in the same areas that our beloved Darts are local to. Setting up an enclosure and placing moss where there is too high of heat/wicking of moisture from the moss to another surface will always leave the moss on the losing side. Due to that we need to place the moss where it would most likely appear naturally once our hardscapes are setup for the best growth. The issue is that Earth isn't encapsulated in a container with poor gas exchange, so why limit our enclosures?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I think you are onto something, Tihsho. I think that ventilation, air exchange, misting, lighting/shade etc. are all part of a big system. However, while I can manage fine scale humidity patterns with misting with multiple nozzles, I have not managed to figure out how to ventilate with the same precision. When I move air in and out of the tank either passively (ideal) or actively (just fine after considerable calibration, in my experience), it seems to happen at a whole tank level rather than in specific areas. In other words, it seems like I can mist (and maybe provide shade) at a scalpel level but I am stuck with a sledge hammer for ventilation/humidity. I know that this is a simplification and that fine-scale humidity gradients are always going to be present, but I still feel like I am pushing those fine-scale gradients in one direction or another with my ventilation and that the overall ventilation kind of steers the ship more than I would like. I should also say that my house trends toward very dry air throughout the year, but especially in winter. This certainly colors my thinking on the subject. I suspect that if you come from a more humid climate that you might have more options available to you than I do.

Great discussion, folks. Keep up the good work!

Mark


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## Tihsho (Sep 21, 2009)

Since I see I've deviated this thread enough, I've started a whole other discussion on it for those interested:









Active Ventilation and Vivarium Environmental Automation...


Rather than go on in another persons thread and hijack it, I figured it was time to pull this out and put the rest of the discussion in its own topic. Figured that conceptually this was a 'General Discussion' topic, but since I'll get into some nitty gritty technical details and I'll be using...




www.dendroboard.com


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