# have you used this substrate before??



## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

I was searching on ebay for plants and rocks and came across this stuff. VOLCANIC CINDER LAVA ROCK FOR HAWAIIAN TROPICAL PLANTS - eBay (item 370143450474 end time Sep-03-10 15:06:04 PDT)

Has anyone used this for a substrate for there plants along with somethings else??


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

I believe Turface will be less expensive and a better option for you, especially if you want a hydroponic substrate. Please see this thread.


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

Web Wheeler said:


> I believe Turface will be less expensive and a better option for you, especially if you want a hydroponic substrate. Please see this thread.


haha thanks for pointing that out to me. I actually read that thread and must have read over it or forgot it was there. that sounds exactly like what i am looking for. Not to be a bother but would it be a smart idea to put like 1inch to 1/2 inch lava rocks at the bottom and then the turface on top and then some peat moss on top of that??


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

myersboy6 said:


> haha thanks for pointing that out to me. I actually read that thread and must have read over it or forgot it was there. that sounds exactly like what i am looking for. Not to be a bother but would it be a smart idea to put like 1inch to 1/2 inch lava rocks at the bottom and then the turface on top and then some peat moss on top of that??


Use the lava rock if you need the drainage (i.e. to act as a false bottom and lift the substrate above any settling water at the bottom of the tank)...but put some sort of screen or weed cloth over it otherwise the Turface, which is so fine in particle size, will just fall all down through the lava rock. I prefer to use a standard false bottom with PVC risers, egg crate panel, and screen/cloth.

Skip the peat moss and instead use a good, thick layer of leaf litter...then introduce some microfaunal cultures. Before long you'll have an explosion of little critters in the leaf litter and top levels of the Turface.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I think it would be OK to use on the very bottom instead of clay pebbles, but not nearly as good since it's not absorbent. Ron has a good plan for you, especially in adding the leaf litter. That is a good place for isopods to spawn. 

If you really want to use peat moss for the plants' benefits, use only a small proportion of it mixed in with cocofiber and sphagnum moss---maybe in a 1:8 ratio. Too much and you will have a boggy mess in your tank as it sinks into the drainage layer.


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

Use the lava rock if you need the drainage (i.e. to act as a false bottom and lift the substrate above any settling water at the bottom of the tank)...but put some sort of screen or weed cloth over it otherwise the Turface, which is so fine in particle size, will just fall all down through the lava rock. I prefer to use a standard false bottom with PVC risers, egg crate panel, and screen/cloth.

Skip the peat moss and instead use a good, thick layer of leaf litter...then introduce some microfaunal cultures. Before long you'll have an explosion of little critters in the leaf litter and top levels of the Turface.[/QUOTE]

So these microfaunal cultures. These will feed my frogs? Sorry if that was dumb question i am very new to this and just started about a week ago on my research about everything. where would i get the leaf litter? I plan on having moss growing on the ground area to so that it'll add more green to the scape. I am actually using the egg crate panel stuff to as a false bottom since i will have running water underneath. I started a build thread so you can see what im doing. all post the link at the bottom of the reply. 




earthfrog said:


> I think it would be OK to use on the very bottom instead of clay pebbles, but not nearly as good since it's not absorbent. Ron has a good plan for you, especially in adding the leaf litter. That is a good place for isopods to spawn.
> 
> If you really want to use peat moss for the plants' benefits, use only a small proportion of it mixed in with cocofiber and sphagnum moss---maybe in a 1:8 ratio. Too much and you will have a boggy mess in your tank as it sinks into the drainage layer.


i really dont care what i use for the substrate just as long as it grows my plants and drains fine. I started a thread on my build so that you can get a better idea of what i'm doing. 

thank you guys for all your help. I truly appreciate it.

here is my build: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...ery-first-viv-build-any-ideas.html#post497751


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

The lava rock will work, but for less cost you can purchase a larger bag of pebbles at home depot for 4 bucks. I personally do not like using rock due to weight issues, but there is nothing wrong with using it as a substrate. 

I do like the turface product, and a couple layers of window screen will prevent it from falling into your false bottom. Also make sure that you add at least a half inch of water in your false bottom to help with the humidity. 

Microfauna are food for the frogs, and are especially good for froglets. You will still need to feed your frogs of course, but the microfauna are a good supplement.

Also before you start your substrate construction your should consider doing one that is clay base. Read through this post http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22990-ultimate-clay-based-substrate-thread.html. It is long but is extremely helpful.


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

skylsdale said:


> Skip the *peat moss* and instead use a good, thick layer of leaf litter...then introduce some microfaunal cultures. Before long you'll have an explosion of little critters in the leaf litter and top levels of the Turface.


I also used to skip the Sphagnum moss layer between the leaf layer and the Turface layer, as seen in the following post I made on a German forum on *02.11.2005*:










However, now I use a Sphagnum moss layer because, *from experience*, I found it helps keep decomposing leaves from entering the Turface layer. *Note: you will still get micro-fauna living in the leaf layer - perhaps even more with the Sphagnum moss layer than without*. Also, you will find that not all Oak leaves decompose at the same rate, and as the leaves decompose, without the Sphagnum moss layer you will get bare spots of Turface, which the frogs will track everywhere. *Do NOT use peat moss.* Use a high quality long fibre Sphagnum moss. A layer of high quality long fibre Sphagnum moss will last much longer than your leaf layer, as Sphagnum moss is not usually consumed by micro-fauna. Of course, the choice is up to the OP, and perhaps we're not discussing much more than cosmetics on this point.

Emphasis in *bold* is mine (W.W.).


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

okay so basically what i have read from that link is that a clay based substrate would be a good base for plants. Kind of dumb on my part cause that makes since because its pretty/ much the same concept for freshwater plants. I have fluorite gravel left from this aquarium i broke down and im going to be using that for my base. I tried getting some mesh from lowes today but for some reason i seem to get the person at the computer that doesnt know what they are doing so she couldnt ring it up and i got tired of waiting so i just left without it. I have this stuff called cheese cloth that i decide to put over the egg crate and then all put the fluorite over top of it and then a small layer of Sphagnum moss since i have some of that and then a layer of leafs.


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

Here are some things I would caution you about:

1. Cheesecloth - is this what you're talking about? If it is, then you'll have problems with it because, being made from cotton, it will break down, allowing your substrate and bits of decomposing cheesecloth to enter your false bottom. The substrate, plus decomposing bits of cheesecloth, could then clog and/or damage your circulating water pump.

2. Fluorite - while this product will work well as an aquarium substrate, arguably no better than Turface (see this link among others), it won't work very well as a terrarium substrate because, unlike Turface, it will NOT absorb water, which is necessary for even water distribution throughout your substrate, Sphagnum moss and leaf layers. Unless you mist heavily and often, you will have dry spots in your substrate layers, which will impede the growth of your plants.

3. Home made clay-based composites - these products are not "fired". I suspect they will break down over time, and I'm not sure that home made clay-based composites will absorb and distribute water evenly. Furthermore, until their use is proven over time, I don't believe additional benefits from their use (if there are any) are worth the extra effort. Note: I have not tried any of the home made clay-based composite recipes. A side-by-side comparison of plant growth in a terrarium using Turface vs. a terrarium using home made clay-based composites would be interesting to see.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Web Wheeler said:


> Here are some things I would caution you about:
> 
> 1. Cheesecloth - is this what you're talking about? If it is, then you'll have problems with it because, being made from cotton, it will break down, allowing your substrate and bits of decomposing cheesecloth to enter your false bottom. The substrate, plus decomposing bits of cheesecloth, could then clog and/or damage your circulating water pump.
> 
> ...


1. At Home Depot you can pick up some plastic window screen that will never break down and will keep the upper layer out of your false bottom. I recommend using two or three layers of it. 

2. Turface is a hardened calcined clay product that is made to promote fast drainage which will prevent rot in some of your plants. It does not provide nutritional value to plants. It is used because of its physical properties. It creates spacing for microfauna and allows for other substrate materials to bind to it (mainly clay) which slows down physical decomposition.

3. If not done right a clay substrate would become a wet mess. They are a lot of effort but they do provide several benefits. One is that it will never break down like the organic substrates do. It can wear down or turn to mush, but that is why most clay substrates use products such as Turface. The Turface helps keep the granules separated and gives the clay something to bind to allowing for proper drainage. 

The thought behind clay substrates is that it is beneficial to the frogs. Adding clay is another way to administer calcium. The basic idea is that the microfauna crawls around in the clay and some of the clay sticks to them. Then the frogs eat the bugs along with the clay and ingest some calcium. Also there is some debate whether the frogs gain some benefits from just crawling around in the clay.

Clay in my opinion has not been friendly to plants. I personally try to mix an organic/clay combination so both the frogs and plants gain some benefits. The only plants I have found that thrive in the clay are some mosses. I imagine that in a planted tank of Turface only vs clay only that the plants may fair better with just having Turface.

Myersboy - Sorry to turn your thread into a clay based substrate thread. If you want to keep your substrate simple and cheap I recommend doing this. Go to Lowes specifically and purchase a bag of river gravel and some of their organic compacted sphagnum moss. Both can be found in the garden section and it will cost you less than 10 dollars. Depending on the size of your tank you may need to purchase two bags of gravel. 

Once your home rinse your gravel and put that into the bottom of your tank so it is 2-3 inches in height. Then put some of the sphagnum moss in a bowl full of water so that it becomes wet and is submerged. Put it in your microwave for 10 minutes, drain it, and then add it on top of your gravel so that is around an inch thick. On top of this add a good amount of leaf litter and your done. 

One more thing is to add some water to the tank so that it is about half an inch deep in your gravel false bottom. New tanks tend to be dry and this will help with your humidity. Also mist the tank heavily to start as well.


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

okay that make since. Now i have looked everywhere for this turface and cant find it anywhere. is there a website that everyone uses to order this stuff. I just ordered leaf litter yesterday so it hopefully it will be here by Wednesday. How thick should my layer of turface be??


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## Web Wheeler (May 9, 2010)

myersboy6 said:


> okay that make since. Now i have looked everywhere for this turface and cant find it anywhere. is there a website that everyone uses to order this stuff. I just ordered leaf litter yesterday so it hopefully it will be here by Wednesday. How thick should my layer of turface be??


Google "where to get turface mvp" and you'll get lots of links, including phone numbers of distributors who can tell you where to get it in your area.

The depth of your substrate largely depends on what plants you plan to use. In general, larger plants and trees need more substrate depth. For most uses, 3" to 6" should be enough. If my memory is correct, a 50lb. bag is enough to fill a standard 65gallon tank (18" x 48" footprint) to a depth of about 3".


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

thanks man. I actually continued to find it and i was reading that link you sent to me about turface and it told me where to find it. All call all the landscape companies in my area tomorrow and find where i can get it. Thank for all your help man i really appreciate it. All be posting some pics of the build so far tonight so check it out when you can and let me know what you think.


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