# necropsy results



## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

I had a necropsy done on a 15 month old citronella, here are the results.

"Diagnosis:
Severe emaciation
Severe intestinal parasites, probably Strongyloides-type parasites
Solitary pancreatic duct nematode

Comments:
The severe intestinal nematode infestation is very likely the cause of the emaciation. The sections of nematode parasites in the intestine are morphologically different from the cross-section found in the pancreatic duct, so there is dual infection. The intestinal nematodes are very likely to be of the Stronyloides-type nematode, because larvae are being produced, rather than ova. Strongyloides-type nematodes are often very pathogenic regardless of the species they infect. These nematodes have a direct life cycle, so scrupulous cage sanitation is usually needed.
Refer to Mader’s section on amphibian medicine in his second edition of Reptile Medicine and Surgery (2006). It may be wise to examine feces from affected cagemates before treatment, so you have some idea of what the ova or larvae look like prior to treatment. Post-treatment fecal exams may then be helpful in evaluating treatment efficacy. I doubt that the pancreatic nematode is the primary problem in this frog, but hopefully the anthelmintic used for the intestinal nematodes will also kill the pancreatic duct nematodes."
The rest of the report states that every thing looked normal in the frog.
The vet that I'm working with is recomending oral treatment with panacur. I am of the opinion that treating my entire collection (including Thumbnails) orally will cause more stress than good. Fecals are in the works but take time as I have to quarantine and collect clean samples. I'm guessing that at least six frogs have been exposed to the same parasites but don't show signs of emaciation.
Any input is greatly appreciated, especially from those that have dealt with this before.
For now I am thoroughly flushing the tanks out with water and draining them but leaving them intact with frogs. They will no longer have access to standing water as well.
Regards,
Jeff


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

Well, there are a few options.
Extreme #1 would be strip down, bleach or otherwise sterilize, and rebuild all the tanks, and quarantining all frogs and treating them and checking fecals until clear.
Extreme #2 would be to do nothing.
In between these would be periodic oral dosing of panacur by dusting food without tearing down the tanks. This would most likely limit the worm burden the frogs get, but without cleaning the environment, they would most certainly become infected again.

There is no right answer as far as I'm concerned. Not all parasites have proven to be detrimental, and while I suspect few if any are beneficial, most can probably be ignored if the frogs are otherwise healthy. The only reservation I have about this is that many have direct life cycles, where the offspring of parasite reproduction are capable of infecting frogs again (without having to have part of their life cycle in a different animal). This allows the worm burden of frogs in enclosures to climb rapidly.

The bottom line is that we just don't know enough about how pathologic these species are, and I would suspect the vast majoirty of frogs with parasites show no signs from it.

Ryan


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## jeffreyvmd (Oct 16, 2004)

*ematiated frog*

If I may ask, were any other frogs in the same tank as the Citronella and second you said at least 6 others may have been exposed. If they are not in the same tank, what exposure did they have with the frog(cleaning supplies, turkey baster etc). Also, what type of frogs are the other 6 and ages of them. That may help us to give some information. 

Strongyloides-type nematodes are sometimes difficult to treat. Also, was you vet recommending using panacur as a dusting with the fruit flies or as as actual drop on the back of the frogs. 

Jeff


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Here is my last correspondence with my vet, I've left their name out on purpose.

"Jeff,

I consulted with Dr. *BLANK *as we discussed. His recommendation was to treat each frog in the enclosure for three treatments, or until fecals are clear. He says that there is no real need to break down the tank.

The problem with sprinkling medications on food, or in the water, or 
whatever, is that we never know who was medicated, who was not, and of those who were, how much medication was ingested (effective, not effective, or toxic levels?). I get this question periodically in avian medicine, as well.

We can dispense Panacur liquid to be used as above; what is the average weight of the frogs?

Please submit fecals also, so that treatment can be tracked."

Correct me if Im wrong but wouldn't oral treatment be really stressful to these frogs? Is there another way to deliver the treatment besides oral or dusting the food source? *This is not to say that I don't trust my vet but want to make the best decision possible.
Thanks for the input Jeff and Ryan.
Regards,
Jeff


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## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

Hey Jeff,

Panacur is best delivered orally (either dusted on food or as a suspension). Cutaneos absorption of the liquid form is not documented to the best of my knowledge. You're right, it is stressful for the frogs not only to be handled but to have a pipette put in their mouths and medication delivered into it, especially since each frog will be multiple treatments. Having said that, it is possible. I do worry about this in thumbs for obvious reasons.

There are other dewormers out there, but some references suggest that they may be too effective at killing the worms, causing the dead worms to form an intestinal blockage. The benefit is that these ones (namely ivermectin) can be dropped on the skin. The margin of safety in dosing out this med is considerably smaller than that of panacur (at least based on the knowledge we have from other genera and species).

Personally, I have done the whole isolate the frogs, tear down the tanks, rebuild, etc. and I can say that that was a royal pain and was NOT 100% effective, despite running daily to everyother day fecals for more than a month. I did and still do dust my flies, and while I can't accurately dose them, I can be sure that they all eat some flies. To me, I know the treatment works because you can really see the egg counts and larvae (for Strongyloides sp.) counts drop within the fecal samples if you check the serially. I still worry about putting a treated frog back into a contaminated environment, as I'm sure the frog gets reinfected quickly.

Hope that helps, and again, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer... like much in this hobby, we just don't know enough yet.

Ryan


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

do the frogs "shed" the actual parasites?
could you have a line of 5 - 10gal tanks and run em for a while just like mites to decrease the #`s of parasites. move the frog to a different setup w/ just oak leaves and bleach to old container or let it dry. If they do shed them and you don`t give them a chance to reinfect you could drop the #`s enough to kill all the parasites w/ one dose and not have to worry about a large amount dying at once. you should be able to run them clean if you change the environment before they can complete the life cycle(eggs can hatch). how long does it take for a strongyloid to die in a frog. if they have a month or 2 life expectancy (in the frogs) and you move them to not get reinfected they should eventually die or dissappear.
A lot of work but maybe an alternative to those who are afraid to treat.
Just a thought.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

With viruses its important to get the complete dosage/treatment so that nothing is missed and resistant strains aren't created. Does this apply for parasites?
Thanks for the input,
Jeff


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