# Self breeding tank?



## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

First of all I'd like to say hello, I've been reading this forum for over a year now, I think. This is my first initial true post. I recently finished a 29 gal horizontal tank for some leucs I plan to introduce to it. I guess I have a preconception that if it's not the best then I don't post pics. And its very plain lol.

Has anyone put frogs in a viv and just let them figure out breeding by themselves? I wonder becuz I see most are sucking up eggs/getting petri dishes out of their vivs for the new tadpoles. Most will do everything possible to keep them tadpoles alive.

I'm only asking cuz I would think watching a tadpole become a froglet in the viv by themselves would be pretty awesome.

I would like some frogs that will breed, and I would like them to breed to their hearts content but I dunno if I really wanna deal with the stress of raising tadpoles.....at least not at first.

Is this something that would be looked down upon?


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

If they have pools of water available they will transport the tads, but chances are you won't know it happened until you see a froglet hopping around.


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

That would be great!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey JrayJ, 
They do it in the wild and they will do it in your tank. You're going to several *small* pools of water. Nothing deep enough for a frog to drown in. And you will need sloped sides to your ponds. Otherwise when your tad morphs to froglet, he will drown before figuring out how to get out of there. That's the last surprise you want...finding a dead froglet. Scatter the ponds about the tank and try to use different things for ponds. Some frogs can be picky about where the deposit their tads. For Luecs you are going to want a couple of coconut hut "igloos" with a smooth surface on the floor (petri dish). Algae will grow in the ponds to feed the tads and flies will fall in also.
The reason we choose to pull our eggs is so mom and dad will lay more! We are simply going for maximum production. You just want to watch mother nature, so go for it! By the way, after you have some experience, look at the Pumilio frogs. You would love them because people *can't* raise the tads! Only mom and dad can as they are obligatory egg feeders. That means they can *only* survive on mom's food eggs!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

many people leave the frogs until froglets are found, and even well after, we call these frogs obligate egg feeders 

james


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Thank you all for the responses. 

I am very happy to hear I can just let nature do it's thing. I think my viv should be quite conducive to letting it do so as well. I might need to add a small piece of slate to the "pond" area.

Honestly though, if I were to see some eggs I might freak and try to save them anyhow. lol.

I'm still a couple months or so away from introducing frogs so I got time to ponder it. Plants seem to grow so slow when you pay so much attention to them lol.


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## girlwithafrogtattoo (Mar 4, 2009)

I've been planning to do the same thing in my tanks, unless I see any real problems. It would be nice to have some eggs/tads make it to froglethood LOL.
I of course still dont know for sure that I even have a pair


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

My 4 leucs took care of business with no help from me whatsoever. I kept them in a 50g vivarium that was about 80 percent land and the rest was water. I let nature take its course, which included natural selection of which tadpole would survive to maturity. In every case over the years, I had multiple tads enter the water and only one froglet emerge. As you know, tads are cannibalistic and only the strong survive. 

I never set the tank up as a breeding tank - the leucs always chose brom leaves overhanging the water to lay their eggs. Every tad that morphed turned out to be fat and healthy, and again, I didn't help by feeding the tads or treating the water in a special way. I didn't even have springtails in the tank. Before I traded all my males away, I ended up with over 2 dozen leucs, probably more.

So, the answer to your question, is yes - Leucs can do it easily. I'm not sure about other species, but I've acquired a proven pair of blue/bronze auratus and I'd like to see if they, too, have the natural instinct. If not, it will sucking up eggs and fixing up cups of tadpole water.

Now that I've had a break from all the babies, I'm ready to acquire a male Leuc again. I especially miss the calling.

best of luck,
kristi


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

It's very nice to hear that leucs can get along alright with no human supervision to their tads. Thank you Kristi for the encouragement of letting them be.

I'm kinda sad my viv is only 29 gal. I want to get 5 leucs to up the odds of a breeding pair, but Im afraid I will only be able to obtain 4 at the very most due to the size of my tank. And I only feel like 3 is the most.

The main and only reason I want a leuc is becuz of the call, I sleep very well and I doubt it will wake me. And then some might say, "Yes they will wake you!!"

I challenge that! If their call can actually wake me up in mid sleep, kudos to the frog that actually did so. Anything that can yell that loud might even trump my daughter...

I'm not a yellow person naturally, I like azureus's look way better. Or my son say's Powder Blues are next. Who knows I understand the attraction to these lil fellers. 

And my lil girls mom came over tonight to look at the viv, and when I turned on the fogger she called me a "nerd." I said, "mmhmm"

But anyhow thanks for the reassurance that I won't do a disservice to the hobby by letting frogs do what they do.


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Otherwise when your tad morphs to froglet, he will drown before figuring out how to get out of there. That's the last surprise you want...finding a dead froglet.


Pumilo,

IMO, he would be considered a weak link. I might share a small moment when I'm sad about his loss but hey If you cant get up outta the water then you aren't strong enough to live in my viv!

I'm not sure what the ratio of eggs laid vs. frogs made in the wild, but I bet it's pretty low.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JrayJ said:


> Pumilo,
> 
> IMO, he would be considered a weak link. I might share a small moment when I'm sad about his loss but hey If you cant get up outta the water then you aren't strong enough to live in my viv!
> 
> I'm not sure what the ratio of eggs laid vs. frogs made in the wild, but I bet it's pretty low.


Have you noticed how breeders use tilted film canisters for their frogs to lay eggs in? As breeders, when we pull tads, as they get close to morphing we put them in a deli type container and put it at a sloped angle so they can crawl out. When they morph from tadpole to frog, it is like starting life all over again. They need that slope to get out. This is not a weak link thing. This is the facts of life. As I mentioned earlier, the parents are particular about where they deposit their tads. One of the things they are looking for is probably a pool that their young can get out of without drowning. If you can't provide that, you may even end up with parents that eat their eggs, because they cannot find a suitable place to raise their young. You have to at least provide the possibility for young to develop or it will not work.
Also, Kudos to guppygal for pointing out that they are cannibalistic and if their is only one pond, their can only be one offspring. If that's what you want, fine, but a few tiny ponds will allow for more offspring.
Doug


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Thanks Doug!

I dont believe they always "plant" they're eggs in perfect spots. I'm sure like us, they make mistakes too...not so much with our offspring, cuz I love my children more than anyone. Just mistakes in general.

Like a puddle in the road that is most definitely gonna get ran over sooner or later, seems like maybe a reasonable spot. I bet they still toss them in there.

Maybe not. They might be that intelligent. I dunno just my thoughts.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

My Leuc viv is fairly naturalistic. It has the sloping areas that you mention. Another interesting note is that there have never been any water changes. I've had to drain it back down to a certain level due to the humidifier, but the water remains stagnant. I can't detect any odors, though - could be due to all the plants...?

Even if I had separated the water area into several ponds, the tads always dropped into the pond where the brom was situated. I kept an eye on them to see if the tads that swam to another end of the tank survived as well as those left beneath the brom leaf, but it always turned out that a single froglet emerged. 

Also, I mentioned that I never 'seeded' my Leuc tank with springtails. All my Leuc froglets learned to eat Hydei immediately - no tiny mels for them. Apparently, if there is a will, there's a way for a Leuc to reproduce. They're a great little frog, and my girls miss having a guy around. Gotta remedy that pronto -

kristi


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

JrayJ said:


> Has anyone put frogs in a viv and just let them figure out breeding by themselves? ... Is this something that would be looked down upon?


This is actually something I think should be encouraged more often. If we're taking into consideration the _longterm_ picture of keeping these frogs in captivity, it's important we make it possible for them to exercise and continue as many of their "wild" behaviors as possible...including tadpole deposition, larval rearing (if applicable to the species), etc.

I personally don't like raising tadpoles all that much and try to set all my enclosures up in ways so that it's not necessary for me to pull/raise them up.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way, or practices it. I know the Leucs are champions at self-reproduction; now, I'm anxious to see if my blue/bronze auratus can get the hang of it.

With this method, it might be slow, but I know that I'll end up with a strong and healthy froglet.


kristi


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

guppygal said:


> now, I'm anxious to see if my blue/bronze auratus can get the hang of it.


Keep in mind: this is an innate behavior in these animals. They all "have the hang of it" as long as we allow it to happen. It's when we constantly and chronically remove the egg clutches from tanks that a problem could begin to occur if, over _generations_, they are not allowed to rear their own young. But for a few weeks, months, years even, they'll be fine.

Provide them an appropriate environment with egg laying and tadpole deposition sites and they'll have no problem.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

skylsdale said:


> I personally don't like raising tadpoles all that much and try to set all my enclosures up in ways so that it's not necessary for me to pull/raise them up.


Could we get a couple of pics as examples, Ron?

Any Leuc, Auratus or Tinc tanks by chance?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm sure this isn't anything like Ron's setup, but here's a pix of one my froglet's, 'thinking about it' .....

kristi


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Very nice Kristi. 

How large is the water area?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

The water area wasn't very large - the width was about 3" to 4" from glass to substrate and was across the entire front and one side of the tank. I think it was about 4" deep at the deepest, but mostly only a couple of inches. I had lots of rocks and vines and leaves that were either in the water or touching the water, so none of the frogs were in any danger of drowning. Basically, it was a swamp, but the Leucs thrived. I figured that if they were breeding so easily and so often, it must've been a decent enviroment for them. Very humid, lots of cover....


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I've bred azureus and gl lamasi without pulling eggs, and pumilio darklands ofcourse....All morphed out of broms except the azureus, that morphed out of a small pond in tank (most of my vivs have small ponds). My guess is if I would have had more frogs paired up and/or the sexes sorted out in some of my groups I probably would have seen more of this, but the ice storm took most of them out, many were just getting to breeding age ;(

I like seeing that happen...I feel like I've done my job as viv builder if the frog can reproduce naturally with no help from me, plus it's just cool  Also since I'm not doing this for money I don't see the point of pumping out dozens of froglets of fairly common species just to flood the market and drive prices down. I reserve my real efforts for stuff like the darklands I had, or the red galacts...but its nice to get everything to breed once, may provide you with some back ups in case you loose one of the original pair, and its nice to say "hey I bred that!"


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Dave, you took the words right outta my mouth. I know that there are a lot of pdf hobbyists who'd LOVE to see how a frog is made without having to go thru the stress of pulling eggs and babysitting tads. We get the satisfaction of the egg to the tad to the froglet to a healthy poison dart frog chomping on fruitflies, and all we did was feed its parents.

It's not a money thing for me, and I'm sure it's true for many others.

BTW, was it last year's ice storm that took your frogs? I'm so sorry to hear that - it was a rough winter.

kristi


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Nice Kristi, that's all it takes, a tank they're happy in and a pond with a sloped edge. For anyone wanting to try this without a pond, all you really need is a small dish, like a baby's cereal bowl. Just push it down into the dirt and put some water in. If you don't like the looks of that, smear it with silicone and sprinkle pebbles over it. You can morph one frog per pond so if you wanted to put a few in, you could get more froglets. My son, frogboy, is excited to try this with his old 55 gallon tank. HeHe, I'm a breeder, so I'm going to be hard pressed to keep my hands outa there!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

guppygal said:


> Dave, you took the words right outta my mouth. I know that there are a lot of pdf hobbyists who'd LOVE to see how a frog is made without having to go thru the stress of pulling eggs and babysitting tads. We get the satisfaction of the egg to the tad to the froglet to a healthy poison dart frog chomping on fruitflies, and all we did was feed its parents.
> 
> It's not a money thing for me, and I'm sure it's true for many others.
> 
> ...


It was the one we had here like 2 years ago, the storm that only hits like every 50 years or something like that...I was on the wrong end of the 50 and without power for 7 days, most of the state lost power for at least few days ;( I lost like 35 darts and mantella...maybe more, and half a dozen or so geckos.

Anyways...I don't know what it is about this hobby, maybe its the same for other herp hobbies but its like when you get into it there is this mentality that you have to breed everything for some reason. Like it is expected of you or something...no one really says that but looking back that was kinda how I felt it seems and it also seems many others feel that way. But then I was like...why bother? Ok maybe breed stuff occasionally or once to get some back up frogs but other then that why not just breed the rare harder to get stuff and leave the bread and butter frogs to the commercial breeders. I did think for awhile though I wanted to do this a job, but as I became aware of the work/money it would take to do that and the relatively small chance I had at making a comfortable living doing it I got much more realistic pretty quickly  Now the plan is just keep my top 10 or so favorite species, try to breed the rarer stuff and just enjoy the frogs and vivs.

My old collection topped out at about almost 50 animals with 20+vivs...and I was finding it difficult to work, have a social life take care of the ferrets and give the frogs/vivs the attention they needed...and now I got the fox too. So I think where I was at is about all I can handle...or want to handle at least. I also found I enjoyed having fewer but larger vivs instead of tons of 10's and 20's.


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Anyways...I don't know what it is about this hobby, maybe its the same for other herp hobbies but its like when you get into it there is this mentality that you have to breed everything for some reason. Like it is expected of you or something...no one really says that but looking back that was kinda how I felt it seems and it also seems many others feel that way. But then I was like...why bother? Ok maybe breed stuff occasionally or once to get some back up frogs but other then that why not just breed the rare harder to get stuff and leave the bread and butter frogs to the commercial breeders. I did think for awhile though I wanted to do this a job, but as I became aware of the work/money it would take to do that and the relatively small chance I had at making a comfortable living doing it I got much more realistic pretty quickly


Thank You Sir! 

I didn't really want frogs just to breed them and sell, I am more looking at it as my lil eco system that will allow the frogs to live, as they want. I can understand people could maybe make a living on the breeding of frogs, but I just want them as an accent to a lil place I made for them to live in my home. 

I'm finding that my interest in plants is something I didn't even know I would take to, but I find the plants just as amazing as the frogs themselves. I'm sure that will change once I get the actual frogs. I guarantee though I will be watching the plants just as much as the frogs.

Frogs are still a couple months away though.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> I also found I enjoyed having fewer but larger vivs instead of tons of 10's and 20's.


Yup...and the larger tanks are more stable, get less rank, etc.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JrayJ said:


> Thank You Sir!
> 
> I didn't really want frogs just to breed them and sell, I am more looking at it as my lil eco system that will allow the frogs to live, as they want. I can understand people could maybe make a living on the breeding of frogs, but I just want them as an accent to a lil place I made for them to live in my home.
> 
> ...


Oh I never considered myself a "plant guy" but especially in the last couple years as I discovered more of whats out there I'm kinda hooked now. Mounted orchids, irridescent plants, all kinds of flowers etc..etc..Though I see them as like colors on a painter's pallet along with various rocks, and woods that I will use to create a masterpiece


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

skylsdale said:


> Yup...and the larger tanks are more stable, get less rank, etc.


Yep, and they just offer so much more potential...It is easier to do more complicated waterfall/drip-wall/pond setups, you aren't so limited in plant choice and more hard-scaping options too. Plus its just interesting to watch how frogs will utilize a large space with varied terrain.

I have 2 horizontal 10's, 1 10vert, and 2 five hex's (those 2 are mostly grow out vivs for moss)...I may do a couple small prototype tanks to get an idea how some of my ideas will look in larger tanks like the fluorescent and semi precious mineral ideas, but other then that I'm sticking to 18talls or higher probably, though If I decide to keep this big rack I have I may need some verts or zoomed cubes to fill some spots. I really want 1 huge viv at least though...something 150gallons or more. I've actually considered converting an entire wall section in my trailer to a "living wall" also...can't afford that right now though


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> I've actually considered converting an entire wall section in my trailer to a "living wall" also...can't afford that right now though


Start a fund to the cause  I bet more than myself would donate a couple dollars to it, just to see it! Imma start up a "Save the JrayJ Fund" pretty soon lol. JK but still, kinda serious.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Dave, you've piqued my curiosity - can you explain the fox, pls?

If this is considered 'off-topic', pm me, cuz inquiring minds wanna know.... 

kristi


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

guppygal said:


> Dave, you've piqued my curiosity - can you explain the fox, pls?
> 
> If this is considered 'off-topic', pm me, cuz inquiring minds wanna know....
> 
> kristi


This should cover it mostly...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/28792-meet-echo-my-new-fox.html

Let me know if you have any questions


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Anyways...I don't know what it is about this hobby, maybe its the same for other herp hobbies but its like when you get into it there is this mentality that you have to breed everything for some reason. Like it is expected of you or something...no one really says that but looking back that was kinda how I felt it seems and it also seems many others feel that way. But then I was like...why bother?


To many people there is an unwritten standard that if you aren't breeding your animals, then your husbandry is subpar... the idea is that you haven't mastered thier care until they breed.. 
In reality breeding can often occur with animals that are housed in conditions that cause them to be stressed so breeding really shouldn't be used by itself as a yardstick. Its been awhile since I posted one of the versions (the middle stages can vary a little) a evolution of care seen in institutions for most species.. and people can decide where they fall out on that scale.. In my opinion a fair portion of the hobby is still somewhere between stages 2-4... 

1) keeping the animals alive for any length of time
2) keeping the animals alive long enough to get them to reproduce (at this state rate of reproduction is insufficient to replace deaths in captivity)
3) maximal life spans start to be recorded
4) keeping them alive long enough for captive reproduction to exceed the rate of death of captive animals (positive population growth
5) maximizing natural behaviors in the frogs
6) maximizing natural behaviors while meeting the critera for 3 and 4 above... 

When evaluating husbandry the following criteria should be used instead of simple whether or not the frogs breed.... 

1) how long is your average lifespan (if it is approaching maximal life spans then you know you have good husbandry)
2) of the reported natural behaviors how many are the frogs exhibiting? The more natural behaviors shown the better the husbandry
and to a lower extent
3) will the frogs reproduce if given the opportunity.... 





Dendro Dave said:


> Ok maybe breed stuff occasionally or once to get some back up frogs but other then that why not just breed the rare harder to get stuff and leave the bread and butter frogs to the commercial breeders. .


Keep in mind that this is a recipe for boom and bust cycles which can significantly harm the captive populations.. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

All excellent points as usual  ....thanks to that damn Ice storm and not having a generator I'm probably a 2 ;( 

I see what your saying about the boom/bust cycles...My thinking was that for me at least sticking with putting the most effort into the harder to get stuff would help prevent that since I wouldn't be flooding the market with cheap frogs, but while I wouldn't be others still would be so in practice I'm not sure if I would be contributing much to the boom/bust...but now if a large number did the same then we'd have a paradigm shift and I and others I suppose could be held responsible for that lol...and then in that way contribute to the boom/bust if a majority follows (thus causing the paradigm shift).

I guess as with most things it is best to steer clear of generalities (Wait, was that a general statement? LOL)... and take things on a case by case basis. 
I'm not sure how to avoid the boom/bust thing entirely, not sure we can...maybe just limit it. I think that would be an uphill battle against human nature. If the hobby was composed of a static group it might not be so hard, but as soon as we get one person thinking about what they are or should be breeding a new guy shows up with no clue or care until we educate them(and they've dumped their first batches of froglets onto the market already). Also you have to deal with all the new people who jump into this feet first and start thinking they may wanna make a living at it or something (Like I did), till the realities set in and probably 98% of those people settle down and start focusing on their most favorite frogs regardless of rarity or commercial value(eventually) or drop out of the hobby completely.

Perhaps a generality does apply here...That like with most hard questions the only viable solution or way to keep the problem in check is the struggle for the answer itself. I would suggest that everyone keep and breed what they like best while ignoring rarity or commercial value, and maybe everyone in a position to do so could adopt one species or morph that isn't very popular as a charity case to make sure it remains represented in the hobby. 

Of course that may lead to a secondary boom/bust cycle within those species/morphs because people would tend to pick a frog they still liked at least a little instead of picking randomly out of a hat. May still be an improvement though. I suppose what is probably best is some kind of system like frog tracks or whatever others there are or people at least bothering to stay informed and think about current trends as they emerge at least if they don't go so far as to actively register animals. Maybe every six months or a year we should put together a "state of the hobby" thread and try to figure out where we are at with species/morph availability instead of kinda winging it like we seem to now?


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I read thru the last two posts at least 3 times, and I'm not sure how it pertains to the topic. It's a lot to digest for for a fairly simple question. I'm thinking that folks who choose to set up a pdf habitat just to enjoy the frogs and possibly, their offspring, would be a boon to the hobby - let's leave the breeding to those who've studied it and know how to make it work for them.

As most posts in this forum indicate, so far, the ONLY way you can raise a frog from an egg is to gather 'em all up, wait for the tads to develop, separate them into little cups with special made 'tadpole' tea, watch them morph into (hopefully) healthy froglets, and then try to figure out how to sell/trade or otherwise part with the many offspring. It's a bit intimidating, but lots of folks give it a shot, and the resulting offspring may or may not be ideal candidates to infuse back into the hobby.

And then JRayJ asks if 'self breeding tanks' are possible. Heck, yeah! How does it work? Well, you set up the best environment possible for your frogs and keep them fed, then watch the magic. I've spent hours in front of my tanks, watching the tadpole each day, waiting for it to pop its legs, and then at long last, leave the water. Totally satisfying, and I look forward to the next baby. It works for the casual hobbyist - magical, and stress-free...

Of course, we depend on forums like Dendroboard to help us help our frogs lead happy, healthy lives. This is the place that we learn what kind of behaviors to look for in our frogs, and to get help if we have problems, and hopefully discover that we just might have a frog that's exceeded its normal life span. It means we did it right by letting them do it all. 

nuttin' to it


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> Could we get a couple of pics as examples, Ron?


Below is an example for a row of tanks I have with 3 Costa Rican species (from left: O. pumilio, D. auratus, P. vittatus)...but they aren't necessarily the best examples. These tanks are 18 gal tanks set on their sides and turned into "vert" style tanks, but I still feel like they are too small. 










In the pumilio tank I have various bits of refuse (rusty cans, etc.) and some smaller things that hold water (condiment containers, custom clay vessels) as well as bromeliads, just to provide a variety of things for them to deposit tadpoles into and replicate their habitat.

The auratus and vittatus tanks both have a small water portion toward the front, partitioned off with a few rocks and stones. They have a variety of large-leaved plants, branches/roots to serve as cover, small clay vessels for egg laying, and a piece or two of garbage/refuse for cover and biotopic accuracy.  

Ideally, I would like to provide MUCH more floor space for all three species, as well as more vertical space/variation for the pumilio.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Thanks for posting Ron. 

Somehow I was picturing larger water portions. We have a lil water up front as well and currently have a couple of Bakhuis tads in them. I'm concerned that they will not survive. They seem to be going strong though.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

frogfreak said:


> Somehow I was picturing larger water portions.


Not at all: Dendrobatids aren't aquatic frogs in the way most people think of when they think of frogs. Most of the species we keep are found in the leaf litter of the forest understory, or even up in trees. Phyllobates vittatus is generally found along streams in riparian habitat, but even then they aren't IN the stream, but along the banks and in/amongst the rocks and roots.



> We have a lil water up front as well and currently have a couple of Bakhuis tads in them. I'm concerned that they will not survive. They seem to be going strong though.


As long as the water quality is relatively stable, etc. they should be completely fine. I don't use pumps or have waterfalls in any of my aquatic portions, and rely upon bacteria and plant roots to do most of the filtering. 

The biggest thing I would worry about is cannibalism amongst tadpoles (often dependant on species). But I had similarly small water features for E. anthonyi, and there were often a half a dozen tadpoles or so in the water.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I'll 2nd the cannibalistic part - how long have the tads been in the water? IMO, the longer they survive, the better the survival rate of both.

good luck - I hope they morph into fine healthy babies!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

One looks to be about 3 weeks, The other about 5 maybe. 

They are seperated by a rock. We've had our Tincs drop tads in the water up front before. We've never had any morph out but this time I'm paying more attention to water changes and they're doing ok it seems. I don't feed them at all. As soon as a fly hits the water it's toast. There is algae, leaves, etc. as well for them.

It sure would be cool to see one on land.

I'm not to worried about canibalism. Makes for a stronger froglet imo.


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## JrayJ (Mar 11, 2010)

Okay now I know I will definitely not worry about the little frogs too much now. Besides adding dusted FF's daily, it sounds like they will take care of them little tadpoles themselves.

My original thought...was that I would be considered evil or something...pro life type situation. But I really just want a nice natural looking viv in my home. Almost self sustaining, if you will.

Dave, the fox is awesome! Now I want one...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

JrayJ said:


> Dave, the fox is awesome! Now I want one...


Sorry for the off topic.... If you are serious you'll need a walk in closet or spare bathroom at least probably. PM if you wanna know more about what you'd be getting yourself into


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

I have a friend that had a 55 gallon tank that had a breeding population of Phyllobates vittatus. He started with one pair over a decade ago and when he finally broke the tank down he collected close to fifty! All of different sizes/ages. And that's not counting all the tiny froglets that he saw get eaten by the adults .


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frankpayne32 said:


> I have a friend that had a 55 gallon tank that had a breeding population of Phyllobates vittatus. He started with one pair over a decade ago and when he finally broke the tank down he collected close to fifty! All of different sizes/ages. And that's not counting all the tiny froglets that he saw get eaten by the adults .


Well thats impressive in tank breeding, but I don't personally approve of allowing that many frogs to live together in such a confined space...and I think its pretty unusual for darts to eat offspring, I wonder if that wasn't a symptom of problems caused by stress and having so many in such a small place. There are many examples of animals turning cannibal in such circumstances. I wonder if the actual original adult frogs were still alive? My guess is they were long gone and replaced by adults of a later generation...be pretty hard to tell with 50+ frogs in the tank.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well thats impressive in tank breeding, but I don't personally approve of allowing that many frogs to live together in such a confined space...and I think its pretty unusual for darts to eat offspring, I wonder if that wasn't a symptom of problems caused by stress and having so many in such a small place. There are many examples of animals turning cannibal in such circumstances. I wonder if the actual original adult frogs were still alive? My guess is they were long gone and replaced by adults of a later generation...be pretty hard to tell with 50+ frogs in the tank.


You are of course entitled to your opinion but it is just that, opinion. All of the frogs living in the enclosure were completely healthy. Also, you have to consider the fact that the number of approximately fifty that I gave included very tiny froglets and tadpoles in the water. The individual in question was and is the Collections Manager for the third largest herpetology collection in the AZA as well as being a personal breeder of dart frogs for close to two decades. Also, if you've kept Phyllobates sp. for any length of time you will learn that they will eat anything that moves and is capable of fitting inside their mouths. Phyllobates vittatus also do well in a colony environment, as is well illustrated by this example.


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

Aren't they pretty small lil guys? It's not like having 50 tincs in a tank. Jest asking....


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frankpayne32 said:


> You are of course entitled to your opinion but it is just that, opinion. All of the frogs living in the enclosure were completely healthy. Also, you have to consider the fact that the number of approximately fifty that I gave included very tiny froglets and tadpoles in the water. The individual in question was and is the Collections Manager for the third largest herpetology collection in the AZA as well as being a personal breeder of dart frogs for close to two decades. Also, if you've kept Phyllobates sp. for any length of time you will learn that they will eat anything that moves and is capable of fitting inside their mouths. Phyllobates vittatus also do well in a colony environment, as is well illustrated by this example.


I kept a group of vittatus before the ice storm that killed most of my collection. It is my opinion and anyone is entitled to differ with it but I think it is one the majority of keepers would agree with. Not so long ago a person posted pics of a 30 gal with like 12 or so frogs and the board ripped that person a new one pretty much...and unless 30 or so of that 50ish were tads this is a way worse example even in a really well designed tank. I have no doubt that frogs will survive and even breed in such conditions but that doesn't mean they weren't under an extreme amount of stress and unable to exhibit natural behaviors...as Ed has pointed out in some of his posts often animals in such circumstances will not express some of their natural behaviors or display behavior that is atypical for the species. 

Also it doesn't sound like at least from any of your statements that the keeper, regardless of experience was keeping track of the number of animals or their life spans so its hard to say if any of those frogs were the original pair or even from the first couple generations of their breeding. I mean ok there were a lot of frogs in there but if their average life span was even 5 years just counting frogs that managed to make it to adult hood (not even factoring in froglet or tad mortality) I wouldn't be particularly proud of that. I'm not saying thats what happened but other then this person's credentials I have no reason not to think it is very possible at least. In fact given those credentials I find the whole thing even more disturbing. From what you've told us it sounds like other then getting fed regularly the person wasn't giving much thought to the frogs...especially on an individual level. 


While the person's credentials may suggest they can get away with such practices while having a lower mortality rate then someone else with less experience might have attempting the same thing that doesn't make it ethical and almost definitely not optimum for survival of each individual frog. 

If you want an example of highly educated, well trained and experienced people killing animals or giving sub par care as a Fennec Fox owner I can offer up several stories of Vets ignoring the wishes of fox owners and the information they gave the vet about issues other owners have had. There are many cases where the owner didn't know of those issues and neither did the vet, and the vet preceded with treatment they thought was safe or called for and ended up killing foxes because of those mistakes or ignoring the information that came from other keepers. Even the vet I went to tried to talk me into giving my fox vaccinations at the full doses used for dogs after I handed them printed copies of posts from other owners who's foxes died or got sick from such treatment (while I could find few if any instances where that happened with half doses at the time). I asked if half doses would likely be as effective or at least nearly so and the vet was like ya, they should be...so I was like why risk full doses? ...and they were like hmm.."good point".

So ya it is just my opinion but I think it contains some valid concerns and/or points, and probably isn't something we should offer up as an example of good husbandry for less experienced people(which to be fair you didn't really do from my point of view, but I'm just saying...). 

Anyways...thats my opinion.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

guppygal said:


> Aren't they pretty small lil guys? It's not like having 50 tincs in a tank. Jest asking....


They are around Luec size...not quite as big as tincs and other large species usually but they definitely aren't thumbs.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Dendro Dave said:


> They are around Luec size...not quite as big as tincs and other large species usually but they definitely aren't thumbs.


Wow that's quite a big frog for 50! 

I am assuming he kept feeding them routinely for ten years? (Meaning, this wasn't a completely self sustained viv, right?)

I'd love to see this tank.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

chinoanoah said:


> Wow that's quite a big frog for 50!
> 
> I am assuming he kept feeding them routinely for ten years? (Meaning, this wasn't a completely self sustained viv, right?)
> 
> I'd love to see this tank.


They were fed every single day like all of the other frogs.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I just pulled 17 vittatus froglets out of an 18x18x24 exo terra. All are probably in the 1-2 month range, and all look very healthy. 

It's kinda funny - I really expected that the 2.2 vittatus housed in the viv would have reacted to this many froglets, but they have not changed their schedule, as far as I can tell. Still call in the morning, all plump and responsive at feeding time, still breeding and filling up the small pond with tadpoles (there could easily be 40-50 tads in there currently, and that's with me pulling a clutch every few weeks or so).


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> I kept a group of vittatus before the ice storm that killed most of my collection. It is my opinion and anyone is entitled to differ with it but I think it is one the majority of keepers would agree with. Not so long ago a person posted pics of a 30 gal with like 12 or so frogs and the board ripped that person a new one pretty much...and unless 30 or so of that 50ish were tads this is a way worse example even in a really well designed tank. I have no doubt that frogs will survive and even breed in such conditions but that doesn't mean they weren't under an extreme amount of stress and unable to exhibit natural behaviors...as Ed has pointed out in some of his posts often animals in such circumstances will not express some of their natural behaviors or display behavior that is atypical for the species.
> 
> Also it doesn't sound like at least from any of your statements that the keeper, regardless of experience was keeping track of the number of animals or their life spans so its hard to say if any of those frogs were the original pair or even from the first couple generations of their breeding. I mean ok there were a lot of frogs in there but if their average life span was even 5 years just counting frogs that managed to make it to adult hood (not even factoring in froglet or tad mortality) I wouldn't be particularly proud of that. I'm not saying thats what happened but other then this person's credentials I have no reason not to think it is very possible at least. In fact given those credentials I find the whole thing even more disturbing. From what you've told us it sounds like other then getting fed regularly the person wasn't giving much thought to the frogs...especially on an individual level.
> 
> ...


Let me address your fox example first, which is a very poor one. While the vet may have been well educated and experienced he obviously was not in the care of foxes. (And, I truly hope that your animal received the proper care. They are wonderful animals.) Where as in the example I gave, the individual was well educated and experienced in the particular group of animals in question. More so than anyone on this board, unless of course there are some of the original keepers from the Baltimore Aquarium lurking on here that I am unaware of. Completely different scenario.

Moving on, if an animal will reproduce in captivity consistently, than generally speaking, they are not under unnatural levels of stress. Please focus on my use of unnatural as wild animals are under constant and various stressors. You seem to be very worried about the individual frogs. Do you think that all individuals live their entire possible life spans in the wild? Don't you think that most, in fact, live much shorter lives then the possible maximum? Don't you think that most offspring of P. vittatus in the wild would not survive even to adulthood not to mention their whole lifespan? I bet if I told you of someone that kept a pair of guppies in a ten gallon aquarium and that person fed the fish well and maintained high water quality and did nothing else with the tank you would be OK with it. In that situation, and this does happen all the time in aquaria, those fish would reproduce again and again. Some offspring would survive, some would die from competition, and some would die from predation. To me, as a biologist, this is a far more natural situation then how the current culture of dendrobatid keepers like to keep their frogs. But, I understand why it is like this, dendrobatids are far more rare and valuable then guppies in captivity and it is therefore more beneficial to the keeper to maximize the number of offspring produced and raised to an age where they can be sold or traded. This is all well and good but it is hardly natural. I guess the point I am trying to make, and the only one I try to make when I do post on this board, is to lighten up. We shouldn't kid ourselves, private dendrobatid keepers are not conservationists, they are pet owners. We are keeping these animals for our benefit, not for theirs. To think otherwise is simply naive. I realy like how much dendrobatid keepers care about their captives, they probably do so more than any other group of herp keepers. What I don't like is the elitist and morally superior attitude that seems to have crept into the culture. It didn't used to be this way five, ten or fifteen years ago...


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> I just pulled 17 vittatus froglets out of an 18x18x24 exo terra. All are probably in the 1-2 month range, and all look very healthy.
> 
> It's kinda funny - I really expected that the 2.2 vittatus housed in the viv would have reacted to this many froglets, but they have not changed their schedule, as far as I can tell. Still call in the morning, all plump and responsive at feeding time, still breeding and filling up the small pond with tadpoles (there could easily be 40-50 tads in there currently, and that's with me pulling a clutch every few weeks or so).


I'm glad to hear of your success. IME P. vittatus are among the most prolific of dendrobatids. I have bred this species more than any other. IME one pair can produce close to fifty offspring in a month.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frankpayne32 said:


> Let me address your fox example first, which is a very poor one. While the vet may have been well educated and experienced he obviously was not in the care of foxes. (And, I truly hope that your animal received the proper care. They are wonderful animals.) Where as in the example I gave, the individual was well educated and experienced in the particular group of animals in question. More so than anyone on this board, unless of course there are some of the original keepers from the Baltimore Aquarium lurking on here that I am unaware of. Completely different scenario.
> 
> Moving on, if an animal will reproduce in captivity consistently, than generally speaking, they are not under unnatural levels of stress. Please focus on my use of unnatural as wild animals are under constant and various stressors. You seem to be very worried about the individual frogs. Do you think that all individuals live their entire possible life spans in the wild? Don't you think that most, in fact, live much shorter lives then the possible maximum? Don't you think that most offspring of P. vittatus in the wild would not survive even to adulthood not to mention their whole lifespan? I bet if I told you of someone that kept a pair of guppies in a ten gallon aquarium and that person fed the fish well and maintained high water quality and did nothing else with the tank you would be OK with it. In that situation, and this does happen all the time in aquaria, those fish would reproduce again and again. Some offspring would survive, some would die from competition, and some would die from predation. To me, as a biologist, this is a far more natural situation then how the current culture of dendrobatid keepers like to keep their frogs. But, I understand why it is like this, dendrobatids are far more rare and valuable then guppies in captivity and it is therefore more beneficial to the keeper to maximize the number of offspring produced and raised to an age where they can be sold or traded. This is all well and good but it is hardly natural. I guess the point I am trying to make, and the only one I try to make when I do post on this board, is to lighten up. We shouldn't kid ourselves, private dendrobatid keepers are not conservationists, they are pet owners. We are keeping these animals for our benefit, not for theirs. To think otherwise is simply naive. I realy like how much dendrobatid keepers care about their captives, they probably do so more than any other group of herp keepers. What I don't like is the elitist and morally superior attitude that seems to have crept into the culture. It didn't used to be this way five, ten or fifteen years ago...



Those are valid points Frank, and as you said it was just my opinion. The personal fox example and stories of other vets actions was mainly meant to serve as an example that not all trained professionals will always maintain a level of care that others would be comfortable with or even find ethical since you seemed to be defending this person's practices mainly by saying that in effect it was justifiable because of their credentials. I would disagree that breeding can generally be used as proof that animals are not under excessive or unnatural stress. I would qualify that statement though by saying that yes in many if not most cases it can serve as evidence...One piece of the puzzle perhaps. There are animals that basically if they are alive, fed and together they will breed under fairly horrible conditions and amounts of stress(Puppy mills?). It could probably be reasonably argued that some dart species would be among such animals that breed under less then ideal conditions. Are they happy? or even care? Hard to say given that they don't express emotions like higher animals, if they even have them. I think it is generally in the interest of the animals to look at the larger picture and consider as many of the variables and all the available info like other behavior patterns beyond breeding as possible...If you are highly concerned with the individual animals. Is it ok for some people not to be? Again a question each individual must answer for themselves. 

To give you another example from the fox world, in Russia researchers have been breeding 2 groups(control and experimental) of their silver foxes for 50 years in an attempt to better understand the process of domestication and the mechanisms responsible for aggression (nature vs nurture). The experimental group of animals that were the most docile and bred to the other most docile are now allowed to be exported for the pet trade. 
Both groups are usually kept in very small pins, and the experimental group which is very unfriendly towards people seems to pretty much just get left in their pins, and the domesticated ones are let out more and given more attention and mental stimulation. On the whole though I am not personally comfortable with the level of care either group receives. 

Yes the animals are pysically healthy(but mentally?) and breeding but from my experience with dogs, cats, ferrets and foxes I can't imagine any being "happy" in such circumstances. Yes the experiment yielded valuable insights and now we have these animals as pets but if I had one that is not how I would choose to keep it and most other pet owner would probably be like "WTF dude?" if they came to my house and saw the animal kept in those conditions. 

So I would also offer up this notion...That many times people that work professionally in such fields especially after many years adopt a more "clinical" attitude then the average pet keeper likely holds towards individual animals. While I may be sad, or kick myself for some mistake that leads to the death of a few frogs...the keeper may take the position that "well the population continues to breed and increase, and it doesn't look like we will have a shortage of this species any time soon so I see no need to change things."...Is that wrong? Thats up to each individual to decide, and I want to be clear that I'm not condemning your friend as being an unethical person in general, or anything like that...I just don't find that particular example of his practices something that I would be ethically ok with, and voiced as much. 

It basically boils down to we are all comfortable with different levels of risk, and evaluate risk differently. I'm sure there are things I'm comfortable with that other keepers might not approve of, and vise versa...It's just in this one instance that particular practice wasn't something I would be comfortable with and It seems as a hobby in general the majority has voiced an opinion that such practices are not the favored norm. It is kinda like the mixed tank issue, where yes it can be done, the frogs may breed, they may even live long lives as can the other animals in the enclosure...but are you comfortable with those risks? Some are, some are not...and some are better qualified to attempt such things then others. I mean honestly I'd rather see your friend with his credentials and experience keeping vittatus like that then joe blow down the street who just got into the hobby, but would I keep my frogs like that or approve of others doing so...no. Am I willing to go so far as to say those are bad people... definitely no. Just as simple difference of opinion and everyone here can consider the methods and points from either side of the issue and make their own determination


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> I would disagree that breeding can generally be used as proof that animals are not under excessive or unnatural stress. I would qualify that statement though by saying that yes in many if not most cases it can serve as evidence...One piece of the puzzle perhaps.


I am just quoting you Dave as a continuation of a specific part of the thread..

The argument that the animal cannot be under great amounts of stress because they are successfully reproducing is an argument that is often tossed around. This argument indicates a misunderstanding of the effects of stress on captive animals. Stress can temporarily or permanently disrupt reproduction in animals as fluctuations in corticosteroids affect reproduction however if the stress level is relatively constant some of the animals will adapt to the stress and the corticosteroids return to prestress levels allowing the animals to reproduce. The animals that cannot adapt to the stress either do not reproduce or die. This is a direct selection for adaptation to captivity and why reproduction cannot be used as an indicator of lack of stress. In reality it is a better indicator of adaptation for captivity. 
For those interested in the topic a review of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles - by Clifford Warwick, F.L. Frye, and J.B. Murphy would be of value. 

A further indication of why reproduction is not a indication of lack of stress are the many captive animals that show sterotypical behaviors yet reproduce readily in captivity. Large cats (like lions and tigers) are classic examples of these animals that show many abnormal behaviors yet reproduce so readily that that animals are either segregated by sex or are implanted with contraceptives to prevent breeding.... Sterotypical behaviors have been seen in most groups of animals that have been studied although I am not aware of any studies having been performed on anurans as of yet (but kinb consumption could be considered sterotypical if it was a routine occurance (it is definetly maladaptive..). 

As a further complication is that this is a direct adaption and indicates a change in the genetic makeup of the frogs, this should be viewed as a problem as loss of genetic variation can cause an accumulation of probllems (like disease intolerance and inbreeding depression) affecting the long term viability of a species or morph. 

Ed


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> I am just quoting you Dave as a continuation of a specific part of the thread..
> 
> The argument that the animal cannot be under great amounts of stress because they are successfully reproducing is an argument that is often tossed around. This argument indicates a misunderstanding of the effects of stress on captive animals. Stress can temporarily or permanently disrupt reproduction in animals as fluctuations in corticosteroids affect reproduction however if the stress level is relatively constant some of the animals will adapt to the stress and the corticosteroids return to prestress levels allowing the animals to reproduce. The animals that cannot adapt to the stress either do not reproduce or die. This is a direct selection for adaptation to captivity and why reproduction cannot be used as an indicator of lack of stress. In reality it is a better indicator of adaptation for captivity.
> For those interested in the topic a review of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles - by Clifford Warwick, F.L. Frye, and J.B. Murphy would be of value.
> ...


Your point is well taken and I did originally submit that the animals were probably under stress just not "unnatural" levels of stress, ie. levels of stress they would likely be under living in the wild. Also, I would say that while the animals that are breeding may be under stress, if they continually reproduce they are at least of acceptable health.


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Dendro Dave said:


> Those are valid points Frank, and as you said it was just my opinion. The personal fox example and stories of other vets actions was mainly meant to serve as an example that not all trained professionals will always maintain a level of care that others would be comfortable with or even find ethical since you seemed to be defending this person's practices mainly by saying that in effect it was justifiable because of their credentials. I would disagree that breeding can generally be used as proof that animals are not under excessive or unnatural stress. I would qualify that statement though by saying that yes in many if not most cases it can serve as evidence...One piece of the puzzle perhaps. There are animals that basically if they are alive, fed and together they will breed under fairly horrible conditions and amounts of stress(Puppy mills?). It could probably be reasonably argued that some dart species would be among such animals that breed under less then ideal conditions. Are they happy? or even care? Hard to say given that they don't express emotions like higher animals, if they even have them. I think it is generally in the interest of the animals to look at the larger picture and consider as many of the variables and all the available info like other behavior patterns beyond breeding as possible...If you are highly concerned with the individual animals. Is it ok for some people not to be? Again a question each individual must answer for themselves.
> 
> To give you another example from the fox world, in Russia researchers have been breeding 2 groups(control and experimental) of their silver foxes for 50 years in an attempt to better understand the process of domestication and the mechanisms responsible for aggression (nature vs nurture). The experimental group of animals that were the most docile and bred to the other most docile are now allowed to be exported for the pet trade.
> Both groups are usually kept in very small pins, and the experimental group which is very unfriendly towards people seems to pretty much just get left in their pins, and the domesticated ones are let out more and given more attention and mental stimulation. On the whole though I am not personally comfortable with the level of care either group receives.
> ...


Your response is appreciated and I agree with the points you made. It is definitely a matter of personal opinion. I just often feel that the personal opinions of the majority on this site are passed on as solid fact. If everyone was like you and could clarify their opinions as such then I think this board would have a lot less flaming and a lot more friends. Take care.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frankpayne32 said:


> Your response is appreciated and I agree with the points you made. It is definitely a matter of personal opinion. I just often feel that the personal opinions of the majority on this site are passed on as solid fact. If everyone was like you and could clarify their opinions as such then I think this board would have a lot less flaming and a lot more friends. Take care.


Thank you sir...and I agree. There are usually at least 2 sides to every coin if not actually a dozen or more...weird looking coins, but if you wanna see a thing for what it really is, best not to be lazy and only look from 1 or 2 positions IMO 
One easy example is the mixing stuff again...a lot of people just say "no"....and pretty much leave it at that, but it isn't that simple. I get many of the reasons why people do that, especially the "if you have to ask, then you aren't qualified" one (since I've said that myself on many occasions). I just don't believe it is in the best interests of all to approach things (solely) in that way, but of course that is just my opinion too


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frankpayne32 said:


> Your point is well taken and I did originally submit that the animals were probably under stress just not "unnatural" levels of stress, ie. levels of stress they would likely be under living in the wild. Also, I would say that while the animals that are breeding may be under stress, if they continually reproduce they are at least of acceptable health.


Hi Frank,

It is hard to claim that there isn't any unnatural stress as the enclosure prohibits natural dispersion of animals, and avoidence behaviors... 

In my opinion, there are three criteria which should be applied to the frogs to determine if they are under low stress and in order of descending importance 

1) longevity- if the average lifespan of a person's frog's approaches or exceeds the maximal life span for that species
2) behaviors- if the animals are not showing abnormal behaviors and show as large a complement of natural behaviors as possible
3) last and least: reproduction. If the above two criteria are being met, then reproduction can be used as the last "proof" but it can't be used in the absence of the above two. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry wrong thread.. disregard. 

Ed


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## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

Ed said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> It is hard to claim that there isn't any unnatural stress as the enclosure prohibits natural dispersion of animals, and avoidence behaviors...
> 
> ...


Ed,

I certainly agree with your three criteria to determine succesful husbandry although possibly not in that order. I think that perhaps (again, just my opinion) all three need to be achieved in order to determine success. It's just that in my experience keeping herps over the years when we first started keeping a particular species and were ironing out the husbandry details the determing factor that we used was if the animal would reguarly reproduce in captivity. But you are right, without the above two the third would be a useless yardstick and often will not even happen (IME).

Frank


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Frank,

In other threads and elsewhere over the years I have posted (what I have observed) the different versions of the stages that many animals seem to go through in establishment in captivity (regardless if it is a Institution or private keeper).. 

Stages 2, 3, 4 can occur in any order as long as 4 follows 2...... while stage 6 is the goal everyone should strive to achieve. 

1) simply keeping the animal alive
2) breeding the animal
3) maximizing life span
4) breeding the animal in sufficient numbers to exceed the mortality of breeders
5) meeting the criteria for stages 3 and 4 at the same time (population is growing (meeting or exceeding deaths of reproductives) and median lifespan approaches maximal lifespan
6) meeting the criteria in stage 5 while maximizing natural behaviors.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Hi Frank,
> 
> In other threads and elsewhere over the years I have posted (what I have observed) the different versions of the stages that many animals seem to go through in establishment in captivity (regardless if it is a Institution or private keeper)..
> 
> ...


I would make one comment about these kinds of statements and that is I don't think anyone needs to feel obligated to actually breed their animals...You are not a bad keeper if your animal lives its life span and generally displays most natural behaviors doesn't breed because you never gave it a mate or tried to spur breeding by manipulating conditions in some way (as long as you maintain suitable conditions in general for the animal, and it isn't some type of animal prone to egg binding or some other issue through no chance of being able to reproduce). 

I'll venture a guess here and assume that ED was in no way attempting to imply that...but it seems like it would be easy for others following this conversation to possibly misunderstand and be like..."Oh I haven't even attempted to get my frogs to breed or given them a mate...I must not be a good keeper", or something like that, which isn't the case probably. 

There is nothing wrong with just enjoying keeping the animal for the pleasure of it, with no attempts to breed it, (with a few exceptions like animals prone to egg binding, or hoarding rare animals that could go to people who could help make them less rare, etc..etc..).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

My last post was a generalized post for use in evaluating the general state of a species in the hobby. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> My last post was a generalized post for use in evaluating the general state of a species in the hobby.
> 
> Ed


Thats what I thought...sorry Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

No worries. 

Ed


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