# How many Intermedius lines in the states?



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I just received two Kelley line Intermedius from different sources to pair up with my probable female that was sold to me as also being Kelley line. The problem is, while the new 2 frogs look similar to each other, my probable female looks nothing like them. How much variability is there in this line? Here's a pic of my probable female:









I don't have any pictures of the male and unsexed individual, but they have more of an imitator pattern than the female.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

One person told me there was one line and another person told me there were two lines. I do know that there is quite a bit of variety in patterns in those guys.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I have siblings that all look nothing alike whatsoever. Some look kinda like Y-fants, some like orange versions of regular imis, and some that look in between. Also, one of them is the worlds ugliest intermedius, burnt orange back and khaki legs.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

My guess is four lines...


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> My guess is four lines...





> One person told me there was one line and another person told me there were two lines.


I hope the treewalkers organization will tackle some of this. I fear too many lines are mixed in our hobby especially with the thumbs.

Intermedius are my favorite thumbs due to the variety of colors on offspring.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

Talking to Tor at IAD he said he thought there were 3 lines in the states. although he said one was just plain ugly


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

In talking with Patrick and Todd heres what I've been told......Patrick has 2 lines though not all that distinctive from eachother . Todd has his own line that looks compleatly different than Patricks . 
Todds line often has blue legs and a very complex pattern on the back while Patricks line typicaly has the more common "cross" or box pattern . 
Then Mr Werner has his Yuris that he has had some luck with ................some of us have yet to see in person . 
So my final answer is 4 . 
Happy frogging , 
Darren Meyer


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## kleinhanz (Oct 18, 2004)

I recently asked the same question to Todd and Phill a couple weeks ago. I was told that there are <at least> two lines of standard intermedius (not counting yuris and whatever). There is the Todd Kelley line that has been around a long time and then there is the Tarlton line which Phil, Rich Frye, Patrich (at least one of his lines if Darren knows of two) and other big breeders work with. That's 3 lines of standards and then there is the yuris with more specific site data.

I have been told to keep the two lines seperate since I have both. My two lines look different but that could just be due to my small sample size.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

The yurimaguensis are much more of an imitator than and intermedius. In text I see them named as D. imitator yurimaguensis, so I would not call them intermedius. Some banded intermedius have come into the country in the last few years. Mine had yet to give me successful froglets, but I believe a few others have had success.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Anyone know what line(s) Pumilio.com is working with?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've had intermedius throw very different looking offspring before, there is a lot of variation in the standard intermedius we have in the hobby (and this is evidently reflected in at least one population of these guys in the wild).

Text wise - have to go with Jon, the three subspcies are imitator (standard greens, tera pota), intermedius (standard and banded) and yurimaguensis. They differ by what species they mimic, and each subspecies has an orange form that may be mislabled as intermedius by those who assume any orange imitator is intermedius. I've seen intermedius that could pass for bandeds, teres, and almost yuris... all from the same group of related breeders.

I also have seen some variation in the orange... from bold orange, to a lighter yellow with a greenish cast - again related individuals. Leg markings range from same as body color to a nice sky blue.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

now where do the INIBICO yellow imis fit in?

S


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The "yellow" imitators are a type of green _Dendrobates imitator imitator_, again showing the variability of the species. They are referred to as yellows as they are much more yellow than the greens we are used to in the hobby, but they are actually a type of green (I talked to Sean at IAD about them).

Here is the very generalized idea behind the subspecies:

_Dendrobates imitator imitator_ mimics variabilis (remember variabilis get very yellow as well, so the "yellow" imitator makes sense).

_Dendrobates imitator intermedius_ (NOT a species! D. intermedius does not exist!) mimics fantasticus

_Dendrobates imitator yurimaguensis_ mimics ventrimaculatus

While the intermedius can somewhat confuse this since most of the intermedius in our hobby are from a population that shows D. i. imitator markings similar to tera pota all the way to banded fant looking frogs from the same line, if you look at yellow fants and banded intermedius you can see the relation.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> now where do the INIBICO yellow imis fit in?
> 
> S


Mine look almost identical to the imitator I have from Pat Nabors.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

I've had a few D.i. yurimaguensis morph out looking exactly like D. biolat. I'll try to get some pics and post them.


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## Jesse (Sep 19, 2005)

*pic*

I don't know if you guys have seen this morph before but here is a pic:


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ as far as i know, that isn't a morph, just an unusual variation within a population.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Since it was commented on here, I'm posting a pic of a yurimaguensis froglet. Not too intermedius like, except for the call.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Here's a pic of another yurimaguensis froglet for comparison sake...


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

JWerner--thanks for the yurimaguensis pics. I don't think I've ever seen photos of these before.

Jesse--that's an intermedius? Wow! I did not know they were _that_ variable.

Here are pics of my two males, differently patterned but all from Rich Frye's breeding stock. My female looks like the first male, but she has a heart-shaped mark on the back of her head and no spots near her nostrils (both males have such spots) (click these pics for better viewing):


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*How many traceable lines of D.i."intermedius"?*

Hey folks. 

Now that my Intermedius are finally reproducing, I'm considering enlarging the group so I don't have to breed full sibs. I know that my frogs trace back to the esteemed Mr. Frye.

Do we have any idea as to the origin of these frogs in the hobby? For example are the Nabors intermedius from the same "line" as the Fryes?
Noting that the Dendrobates.org folks take the position that Intermedius in the wild is a much more variable entity than it is in the US hobby- are they all the same "line"?

Cheers,

Afemoralis

(Mods feel free to move this if it belongs somewhere else)Ok - merged this thread with the older one to keep the info in one place - rozdaboff


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

This is a good question. I hope someone chimes in this time. I know I have asked it in the past and no one had any idea.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I seem to remember hearing three but can't identify them for you. There was a thread ahile ago about it, and I don't think there was ever a hard concrete answer, just a bunch of peoples assumptions.


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## thong_monster (May 6, 2006)

I rememeber hearing there was 3 awhile back on another thread. Just of the top of my head there is Frye and Tarlton(?).


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

This post tried to find a similar answer

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=16375

Hopefully - some of the TWI stuff regarding captive bloodlines will be able to elucidate much of this information.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Oops, didn't realize there had already been a thread. After reading through it though, I'm rather glad to keep it going- doesn't seem like anything was clarified. If the mods want to combine threads to keep them both together- go for it.

At any rate, I've written off to a few of the major breeders to get their opinions. I'll post when I hear back. Might be an interesting genetics question to get a student on as well....

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

No Sea - you are right - a definitive answer wasn't really reached.

Keep us posted on what you find out.


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## JWerner (Feb 17, 2004)

Do not believe there is a Frye line at all. My guess is five lines, four of which I am certain of.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

This won't shine much light on the problem but it is interesting. According the CITES records (which span with varying accuracy back to 1988), something identified as D. imitator has been imported to the US in 1995 and 1997-2005 (2006 is not recorded yet). Of those imports, animals came from Peru in 1998,1999, and 2003. All of the other imports came from Europe or Canada. I don't remember when "intermedius" started showing up but likely the older imports can be counted out. It is rather irrelevant because if these records are correct, the only way to know how many lines are in the US will most likely require tracing them back through Europe. Because if there are really 5 lines in the hobby, it is unlikely we got 5 lines from a single Peruvian export in 2003.

Tor is working with TWI on some of this stuff so maybe he can help shine some light on the matter. But I wouldn't hold my breath for definitive "lines" (or what I prefer to call populations) of intermedius to become apparent.


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## George B (Apr 2, 2005)

I'm with Jon, I don't think there is a frye line either I believe he got his animals from tarlton. Steve Tarlton line originated from frogs imported by john Uhern. Most of the intermedius you see come from this line. 
George


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Hi.

So far both Rich Frye (http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/) and Patrick Nabors at Saurian (http://www.saurian.net) have been kind enough to take the time to respond. Please take their comments for what they are: generous, invited responses to my questions on a subject matter of some confusion. 

Mr. Frye was quick to point out that he dosen't consider any of the thumbnail frogs he produces a "line" exclusive to his business. There is no "Frye Line". To which he adds:

"From what I have seen, read, and gathered from other froggers, I would not have a problem breeding any of the intermedius "lines" to each other . I would not be surprised if the "lines " here in the U.S. are all the same.
Quite possibly from the same German breeder (or smuggler) shipped at different times. I am guessing this may also be the case with standard lamasi here in the U.S. and a number of other Dart species.

I've seen a number of pictures of intermedius in the wild that look very
much like our "lines" here. I think the Euroes may think that "intermius' is
an American thing. But this is coming from the froggers who called almost
every Thumbnail a vent or an imitator, right after deciding the Thumbs did
not belong in the "Quinq Group".

If you know you have intermedius and you find non siblings from a friend or whomever, I would go for it. But I would be very careful when buying or doing trades involving yellow fants and banded intermedius . These are two very different sub-species."

Patrick Nabors of Saurian.net also felt the lines were limited. 

"while some one may have brought in some new bloodline in the past year or two, someone like Mark Pepper or Phil Tan, other than that there were, to the best of my knowledge, no more than two, and possibly only one bloodline of intermedius in circulation a couple of years ago." 

Again, let me remind folks that these are all but immediate responses from two businessmen, no doubt with far more important things to do than responding to my questions about frog details. We have some truly generous people in this community.

I've got a few more emails out to folks to see responses from.

Cheers!


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## thong_monster (May 6, 2006)

Great info there Afemoralis!


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Yeah, great investigative work, keep us updated with what you find.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

As far as wild populations go, intermedius is probably one of the most variable frogs I've ever seen. There entire range is located within a 'canyon' along a short stretch (~20-30 km) of forest. Now, we've surveyed this canyon extensively and it doesn't seem to make much more sense to us now than it did before we ever went in. There appear to be two or three major morphs of intermedius - those that mimic the banded D. fantasticus, those with the 'wandering pen-line' pattern, and the ones with the large black spotches that are separated by vertebral orange coloring. It is very difficult to say whether or not these frogs are all interbreeding or not, but I think the wise thing to do would be to try to keep breeding groups somewhat separated until localites become more well know. Though, with the natural variability in these frogs, I would say that two lines that look identical are probably from the same locality, but there are potential exceptions to this. Furthermore, two frogs that look completely different may well be from the same locality...we found yurimaguensis imitator and intermedius within 300 meters of each other on the same side of the river. I would say that if they look like banded fantasticus, they are of the same 'line' and could probably be bred together, and if they are the more classic intermedius, those probably represent one 'line' also. Fortunately the wandering pen-line imitator haven't been smuggled yet so they haven't reached the hobby as far as I know.

-Evan


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Cool- I feel like we are getting somewhere! I'm gonna continue gathering info, but at the moment I think I'd play it like this:

Banded "Intermedius"
Blocked/blotched "Intermedius"

Until new legal imports come up. I think Evan's note that all of these frogs are from a discreet population (at least geographically...) should be of serious interest to everyone who keeps or breeds them- we now have a conservation target to aim at: the Huallaga canyon. 

So I know that should my Intermedius continue to breed, I'm gonna try to find a way for any proceeds to go to the conservation of the canyon. Got any tips Evan? Any ideas from anyone else?

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

Afemoralis said:


> So I know that should my Intermedius continue to breed, I'm gonna try to find a way for any proceeds to go to the conservation of the canyon. Got any tips Evan? Any ideas from anyone else?


Great idea, i'd like to do the same if the pair i'm getting produce for me. Let me know what you find out and how i can help!


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Based on my observation on d. intermedius that were raised in Phil Tan and Todd Kelley collections...

- Nabors/Tarlton line throws nominat fantasticus look alike. While Todd Kelley line does not. 

- Heard that they came from the same importer, however date/shipment and whether or not they came from the same breeder in Europe are unknown. 

They could be from the same place, say one line breeds out the fantasticus look alike... by some mechanisms (i have no idea what)... but there is no doubt that Todd's line does not produce the same offspring variations like Nabor/Tarlton...


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

And then you've got the animals Tor Linbo released this year which are basically intermedius from the original importation from europe (dating earlier than the others) in which he seems to have the only animals left... I think this effectively makes them the Tor Linbo line lol... story goes these were exported to the US soon after they arrived in Europe. The other intermedius had been floating around europe for years before being brought over. They could technically be similar/same bloodline, but I believe they should be considered a different bloodline, like the other two.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> They could technically be similar/same bloodline, but I believe they should be considered a different bloodline, like the other two.


Hmm. In my mind it seems like the information that Evan posted would trump any information about provenance. I see what you are saying about Tor's frogs being closer to the wc source but if the frogs can be fairly assigned to a wild population and locality based on morphology, doesn't that over ride these management differences and bring them all back together into one population again? I'm not saying this is right, but it seems like we could be reasonably confident that we can link the frogs to one of 3 possible populations based on appearance. And Evan did mention possibly 3 main morphs that may or may not be interbreeding so, to be safe....


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Well, question is... are we talking bloodline, or population? Original question seemed aimed more at bloodline... we tend to keep the bloodlines separate based on general morphological differences (minor ones that could be contributed to how they've been bred over generations) in which Evan's post seems to imply that these 3 bloodlines could be mixed. It's up for debate if the bandeds should be tossed in as well, due to Evan being unsure on how much the populations interbreed.

All three bloodlines seem to be variations of the same "morph" (what was that about ding dong the morph is dead?). I was just pointing out yet another bloodline as the original question seemed to ask


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Well, I guess with regards to the original question, I was asking about lines. And in talking with Tor, the situation there does seem to be complex. But for me at least, the population info trumps line- especially with the "lines" being poorly followed for the last decade or so outside of Tor and a few others. 

I don't think line is traceable for my frogs at this point. So I'm gonna run with Evan's population statement and worry about the coarse pattern types he noted (banded, intermedius, Yurimaguas) and not worry about the fine lines (pardon the pun). Until I get a documented line from somebody like Tor, or a group of legally imported frogs from INIBICO or the like. 

With regards to these pattern differences in the population- does anyone know of research or have viv observations that would lead us to belive they are important in mate choice? Dr. Summers did this with the pumilio of Bocas del Toro, but I don't believe anyone has done it with Intermedius. Would be interesting to see.... Do frogs choose patterns more similar to their own in a mate?

Cheers,

Afemoralis


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

For me, the ultimate purpose of distinguishing populations or lines is to answer the question, "which frogs should be bred with which other frogs?"

If we have good information about the population, then it would seem we want genes to flow throughout that population. Bloodlines as designated within a population may tell us which frogs are more related to each other than they are to which other frogs. But if the lines are part of the same population, then what would follow would be to purposely mix those lines to regain the maximum genetic diversity of the population.

In my little brain this is the situation:

Breeding within finer designation than the population = selective breeding
Breeding between populations = hybridization
Sharing the love among all animals in the population = Goldilocks solution - just about right

To put this another way. The population is the finest genetic designation we would distinguish in nature. Lines are artificial designations based on the captive breeding history of the animals. But lines do not translate to anything found in nature (e.g. you can't go to Peru and find a pocket of frogs that are the "Tor line"). So while lines may help inform us of how to manage genetic diversity, maitaining those lines is not really the ultimate goal.

And if I may be allowed to sound even more crazy. I would say that lines have a very limited usefulness in guiding breeding decisions. As stated earlier, maintaining frogs at the population level requires mixing the lines within that population. After one or two generations of mixing, the line ceases to exist as a valid designation. To really manage genetic diversity we have to go to a more complete pedigree system where we track the lineage of animals at least down to breeding groups. In that scheme I may have frogs that are mixed between lines, but I can still trace the lineage back to both Tor's breeding group and Todd's group to get a good picture of where my animals place in relation to others.

The key, of course, is having good information about the populations such as what Evan and company are doing. I believe that if we lose fuzzy designations like blood lines and morphs, and replace them with breeding groups and populations, we will find that the genetics of our captive populations are less complicated than we have made them.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

Afemoralis said:


> With regards to these pattern differences in the population- does anyone know of research or have viv observations that would lead us to belive they are important in mate choice? Dr. Summers did this with the pumilio of Bocas del Toro, but I don't believe anyone has done it with Intermedius. Would be interesting to see.... Do frogs choose patterns more similar to their own in a mate?


I have been wondering about the same thing.

SB


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Brent, after talking with folks who have made the Peru trip, and reading Evan's posts, I have to say I agree with you. I think we have enough information to hypothesize that "standard" intermedius comprise an interbreeding population.

We need to ensure genetic variation in the hobby and not line breed intermedius into the ground. I have both the "Tarlton" and "Kelley" intermedius, and have Tarlton pairs, Kelley pairs and Tarlton x Kelley pairs.

If anyone wants to boycott my table at MWFF next year, feel free. However, you could just boycott the cups labeled "Tarlton x Kelley" if you want. But they're just tooooooooo cute to boycot.


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