# Feeding Ants?



## Bubble_Man

While collecting leaves for my vivarium today, I discovered a large colony of ants in the forest floor. Since they were crawiling all over me, I can safely assume they are not the biting kind. It then occurred to me that this would be a virtually unlimited backup source of food, should my fruit fly cultures ever fail.

I've read that poison dart frogs produce their toxins by consuming ants in the wild. Is there any danger that eating local ants could cause them to produce toxins? That would definately be undesirable.


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## chesney

*Ants*

I have fed my frogs ants from outside and they loved 'em! Gives 'em some variety.


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## Ed

Do a search for ants on the forums.. there have been many discussions on it and a few that included the toxin issue... 

Ed


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## fosterspike

the ants they eat in the wild get the toxins from poisonious plants so there should not be a problem with local ants.


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## thumbnail

*ants*

I use the real small black ants you find in rotting wood. These little guys dont bite/sting and the frogs love them. I have found a bug sucker or a handheld vacuum to be the best ways to collect them in mass.


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## xm41907

ants should be fine to feed to darts as long as you make sure not to put certain types and/or castes into the tank. The Red Imported Fire Ant (_Solenopsis invicta_) would definitely be something to avoid. If ya live in the top half of the US, you won't have these, but in the south, watch where ya stand! I would also make sure not to put any queens inside, as they might bury where the frogs can't get to them and start a colony. A good idea would be to put the brood in (if you can locate them). During the warmer months ants are all over the place. if ya locate the brood, would be a great treat for darts.


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## KeroKero

Ants actually get the toxins from fungus they grow in their gardens in the colonies...

It was once recomended by a long time frogger (Mike Shrom if I remember correctly) to use the ants that are attracted to peanut butter.

Ants are tricky because while wild PDFs evidently may eat a good amount of them in the wild, the native ants here, and the native ants where they are from are different... in some cases vasty different. Only introduce a few at a time and quickly remove those that aren't eaten or favored by the frogs.


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## xm41907

I'm not sure what you mean by the ants that are attracted by peanut butter. depending on where you live, there can be a wide variety of ants that will feed on peanut butter. most ant species will alternate between protein based and carbohydrate based foods. what they feed on today may not be what they feed on tomorrow. 

I do agree with you about native vs invasive ants. When combining two species that do not inhabit the same natural areas, there is always a possibility of unforeseen problems. A caution to anyone living in the southern part of the country, do not put fire ants into a viv. these are an extremely aggressive species, and may immediately attack frogs. Look for more docile species. 

As with anything you put into a viv, think about what may and may not happen. Research what you can, and make an educated decision. If it fails, then reflect and adapt.

James


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## atlfrog

*Fire Ants and Others*

What I have done in research and asking a lot of questions, and I know everytone has said ths already, but fire ants can make your frogs poisonous. BUT within 6 or 7 months of eating these ants, they usually die. The toxins in these ants can not be fully digested by PDFs.

Some examples that are safe to feed: Amblyopones, Dolichoderus (Dolichoderinae) and Dorymyrmex (Dolichoderinae). Some of these ants can be found basically from the Mississipi river to the east coast and some of the others can be found just about in every state in US. I found this information on the net. These species are supposed to be nontoxic and are the most common species available in the US. Hope this helps. I had this same question a few months ago. :wink:


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## whatever111

So in the summer, I can feed those little black ants to my amys and auratus?


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## KeroKero

Leave a spoon of peanut butter out in a pesticide free yard and see what ants come to take advantage of it... the theory is that those species that will take advantage of the peanut butter are ones the frogs are more likely to eat with experience - at least in Penn. Beware that lots and lots of people spay/poison for ants! And just because they are hanging out in your area doens't mean they might not also be gathering from another...

There are hundreds of species "little black ants" so that really doesn't give enough information to judge.


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## whatever111

oooh ok...can I buy some from someone and culture them then?


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## KeroKero

I'm not sure of the legality of it (tho I know there are people on arachnoboard that keep ants) but basically an ant colony requires a queen ant to reproduce... and the ants being collected are usually works of all the same sex (and I'm unsure of - and it may vary by species - which sex it is and if females can turn into queens if one is not present).


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## xm41907

I've collected and reared numerous ant colonies (fire ant, pharoh ant, little black ant, carpenter ant, harvetser ant, big headed ant, and maybe a couple of others for a short period) some are almost impossible to establish in captivity, while others are easy to collect and rear. 

collecting and rearing wild ants is can be a tricky business. First, you need to know what kind of ant you are trying to collect, this will have an effect on how and where to collect, and also how to house and feed them. Second, when you locate the colony you want to collect, you must do everything you can to collect the queen(s). Worker ants can not change into a queen. if you do not collect at least one queen, then the colony will simply die out. Play it safe and try to take more of the colony than you think you need. When collecting fire ants, I've used up to 4 five gallon buckets for one colony. 

There are basically two ways to extract ants from soil, if this is how you collected them. A drip method, using a very slow drip of water will allow larger ants to relocate above the water line allowing you to seperate out the dirt. For small ants, use water tubes (see below) to slowly collect as much of the colony from the dirt as possible. This can take a couple of months though.

some basics in maintaining an ant colony are housing, food, and water. an easy way to house ants is to use a sweeter box and put fluon around the sides. this is a slippery material that ants can't walk on. Caution with this, as some species will slowly chew it away until they reach the top. returning to find a few thousand escapees is never fun!

Always keep a water source in the container. a tes tube filled with water and a cotton ball stuffed into the end until it is wet is a wonderful way of providing water to a colony. depending on size, maybe a couple should be used. change/replace them as needed.

Food will be dependent on which species you are working with but here are what I've used. mealworms, these are best used if cut into for smaller species. crickets, a good way is to freeze them first, then just cut the frozen crickets into. Honeywater, 75% water/ 25% honey. use an eye dropper and place into small containers. For small species (little black ant, pharoh ant, it is best to place a small piece of paper towel down first, then put the honey water on top, this will keep them from drowning. 

Once collected and extracted, a colony can live a long time in captivity given the proper conditions. I've seen fire ant colonies live for a few years.

Well, that's the basics of ant collecting and rearing. Any specific questions, feel free to ask.

As far as what species are suitable for darts, I'm not sure, as I'm new to darts.

James


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## Ed

KeroKero said:


> I'm not sure of the legality of it (tho I know there are people on arachnoboard that keep ants) but basically an ant colony requires a queen ant to reproduce... and the ants being collected are usually works of all the same sex (and I'm unsure of - and it may vary by species - which sex it is and if females can turn into queens if one is not present).


It is illegal to ship any ant queens over state borders without permits (APHIS). If you can get permits there is at least one commercial vendor for some of the south-western species. 

For a good primer on ant keeping see the last chapter in Journey to the Ants (http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Ants-Stor ... 0674485262). This has some excellant information. Some of the ant species have been maintained in labs for more than a decade. 

Ed


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## whatever111

Youch that sounds like a lot of work lol 

Thanks for all of the info, but maybe I'll just collect some for the froggies 
Thanks for the info on catching them too!


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## xm41907

it's really not that much work, once you know how to do it. I worked in a fire ant research lab during my undergrad, that's where I did most of my husbandry with ants. Would spend about 15-20 hours a week feeding and cleaning cages for a few hundred colonies. For a feeder colony for darts, it wouldn't be much trouble at all, once you have the colony collected, that's the difficult part, locating colony nest, making sure to collect queen(s), and isolating colony from substrate. After that its simple feeding/cleaning. 

Might not be worth the trouble being that you can easily collect workers during the warm months of the year just about anywhere.


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## whatever111

Yeah thats what I meant, I can just collect some worker ants for them. I don't think my parents will want me to start culturing ants lol


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## bbrock

*Re: Fire Ants and Others*



atlfrog said:


> What I have done in research and asking a lot of questions, and I know everytone has said ths already, but fire ants can make your frogs poisonous. BUT within 6 or 7 months of eating these ants, they usually die. The toxins in these ants can not be fully digested by PDFs.


Could you provide your sources for this information? I'm just curious because I've heard several references to people feeding fire ants to dart frogs. I'm not disputing the risk this involves, but I'd like to read about other experiences in this regard.

From what I have read in the scientific literature, the connection to ants as a source of dart frog toxins is very tenuous. While I believe it likely happens, this relationship tends to get passed around as if it were a known fact when I believe it is still pretty speculative.


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## xm41907

I'll second that bbrock, I am curious as to where this information comes from as well. Fire ants aren't inheritantly that different than many native species in the US, biologically that is. The main concern about fire ants is their behavior, not biology. While, I am new to darts, I've worked with fire ants for seven years, they are fascinating creatures, both harmful and beneficial depending on how you look at them. 

Another factor in making darts poisonous, if this is true, would be the diet of the fire ants. They are ravenous creatures and will eat about anything you throw at them. Looking at this topic from an ecological stand point, it is possible for a dart to become poisonous through bottom-up bio-accumulation. caterpillars eats from poisonous plants, fire ants eat caterpillars, darts eat fire ants. Just depends on where the food comes from.

Anyone have references on fire ant-dart toxicity????

James


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## Ed

I have strong doubts as to that statement as pumilio-alkaloid toxins have been found in fire ants (see http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/101/21/7841.pdf 

and http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0402365101v1.pdf for some examples)

Ed


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## Greg

I am not an entomologist so I can't be 100% certain on this but I'm fairly sure. The ants that the frogs eat to create the toxins are considerably different and have very different diets than the local ants (I am in southern California). Most of the ants that lead to the producing of the toxins have a particular alkaloid diet, and it is the alkaloid base chemicals which the frogs turn into the toxin. From what I have researched the insects here should be safe because they can't provide the needed chemicals.


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## KeroKero

Or they could provide different chemicals... one theory on the differences in toxicity between differen PDFs (even different populations of the same species) is that they feed on different fauna (either due to niche and/or literal localities). So in theory these animals could be toxic eating other fauna, they would just have different toxins... Hawaiian auratus are highly removed from where they occured originally (Panama) yet they are toxic... but their toxin make up is vastly different then the toxins of what is believed to be their original population, because it's based off local fauna.

If the invertebrate to toxin theory is true (it's still just a theory!) then the toxins would change not just by species of invertebrate, but in the case of ants it could vary due to the local flora they use in their gardens (different flora grows different fungi) and the local fungi growing in their gardens that they eat (which are the supposed sources of the toxins originally).

Not saying we are magically going to get super toxic frogs from feeding local fauna, but with the huge range of toxins found in PDFs I wouldn't assume most of the local stuff couldn't get them a little toxic... but since many weren't that toxic to begin (and since you shouldn't be handling them anyways) it's not exactly a huge risk if they get a little kick in their diet.


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## bbrock

KeroKero said:


> If the invertebrate to toxin theory is true (it's still just a theory!) then the toxins would change not just by species of invertebrate, but in the case of ants it could vary due to the local flora they use in their gardens (different flora grows different fungi) and the local fungi growing in their gardens that they eat (which are the supposed sources of the toxins originally).


Sorry to be a nit picker here, but I don't think it is a "theory". A theory is a hypothesis that has withstood rigorous testing from multiple angles and appears to be as close to a proven fact as science can provide. Like the theory of gravity, or the theory of evolution. 

I would say the toxins through ingesting invertebrates is a pretty well tested hypothesis that we can be fairly confident in. And if we look at the full body of research on pdf toxins, it seems there are some themes we can have some level of confidence with. First, pdf appear to be akaloid accumulators that either sequester alkaloids intact, or provide some modification to the alkaloids but they do not appear to be manufacturing those alkaloids themselves. This leads to some plasticity in the toxin profiles that frogs can exhibit which allows them to exploit a range of alkaloids available in their local environment. Some very strong evidence of this are studies that have matched toxin profiles of pumilio with the alkaloid profiles of invertebrate cocktails prepared from the soil. Profiles of frogs tend to match the invertebrates found in the same location more than they match either frogs or invertebrates from other locations. Which is why I've said some of the ant associations were tenuous because some of the earlier work found alkaloids in ants that matched alkaloids in frogs but not found in the same location. It appears more recent work has resolved that issue but it remains that alkaloids are still found locally in more invertebrates than just ants. Which gets us to the second theme that I think we can be confident that the sources of toxins is more than just ants. So when we say, "pdf get their toxins from ants", it's a bit misleading. Third, there are limits to the alkaloids a particular species can sequester. If there weren't, I think all pdf species living in the same area would share the same toxin profile. But they don't, and the toxin profiles are a pretty good diagnostic for classification, so there appears to be some evolutionary method to the madness of who can sequester what.

All told, I think it is reasonable to say it is likely that pdf could accumulate some alkaloid toxins from locally collected wild foods. But that the likelihood of getting them to replicate the full compliment of their wild toxin profile in captivity is practically nil.


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## bbrock

bbrock said:


> KeroKero said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the invertebrate to toxin theory is true (it's still just a theory!) then the toxins would change not just by species of invertebrate, but in the case of ants it could vary due to the local flora they use in their gardens (different flora grows different fungi) and the local fungi growing in their gardens that they eat (which are the supposed sources of the toxins originally).
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to be a nit picker here, but I don't think it is a "theory". A theory is a hypothesis that has withstood rigorous testing from multiple angles and appears to be as close to a proven fact as science can provide. Like the theory of gravity, or the theory of evolution.
> 
> I would say the "toxins through ingesting invertebrates" angle is a pretty well tested hypothesis that we can be fairly confident in. And if we look at the full body of research on pdf toxins, it seems there are some themes we can have some level of confidence with. First, pdf appear to be akaloid accumulators that either sequester alkaloids intact, or provide some modification to the alkaloids but they do not appear to be manufacturing those alkaloids themselves. This leads to some plasticity in the toxin profiles that frogs can exhibit which allows them to exploit a range of alkaloids available in their local environment. Some very strong evidence of this are studies that have matched toxin profiles of pumilio with the alkaloid profiles of invertebrate cocktails prepared from the soil. Profiles of frogs tend to match the invertebrates found in the same location more than they match either frogs or invertebrates from other locations. Which is why I've said some of the ant associations were tenuous because some of the earlier work found alkaloids in ants that matched alkaloids in frogs but not found in the same location. It appears more recent work has resolved that issue but it remains that alkaloids are still found locally in more invertebrates than just ants. Which gets us to the second theme that I think we can be confident that the sources of toxins is more than just ants. So when we say, "pdf get their toxins from ants", it's a bit misleading. Third, there are limits to the alkaloids a particular species can sequester. If there weren't, I think all pdf species living in the same area would share the same toxin profile. But they don't, and the toxin profiles are a pretty good diagnostic for classification, so there appears to be some evolutionary method to the madness of who can sequester what.
> 
> All told, I think it is reasonable to say it is likely that pdf could accumulate some alkaloid toxins from locally collected wild foods. But that the likelihood of getting them to replicate the full compliment of their wild toxin profile in captivity is practically nil.
Click to expand...


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## xm41907

this subject reaches much further than ants alone. Bbrock is right regarding pdf's sequestering alkaloids from their diet. It is sort of like a natural version of bioaccumulation, Think "DDT" The real question shouldn't be would pdf's become toxic by eating the local ant fauna. It should be, what in the local environment might filter down the food web to the darts. When it comes to ants, you need to be as specific as possible. carpenter ants vs odorous house ant vs fire ants (to name a few), these all have different biologies, feeding preferences, and habits. Within populations, you will have varying degrees of what the ants feed on. 

It is true that some species of ants cultivate a fungus, these are the leafcutter ants (_atta_ genus), however not all tropical ants do this. Just as there are a variety of temperate types of ants, there is an even wider variety of tropical ants, some are carnivorous, some phytophagous, and many omnivorous. 

For example take one of the most ubiquitous ants in the US, Odorous house ant _Tapinoma sessile_ (Say). These ants can be found nearly anywhere, and in large supply. Their diet will shift between carbohydrates and proteins depending on what the colony needs. It is not uncommon for a given colony to shift their diet completely within a 24 hour timeframe. These two facts alone illustrate that this species may absorb a wide range of potentially toxic chemicals within a single population.

Now given the breadth of the United States ecological diversity, man's unconventional habits, and the wide variety of ant populations, there is no clear answer about if local ants are safe for pdf's, let alone if they will develop higher levels of toxicity themselves. 

There are too many uncontrollable factors to this equation, however, in my opinion, I wouldn't rule out the possibility. A greater concern I would have is what have the ants been exposed to that may be detrimental to the pdf's.


As a side note, _Solenopsis_ spp. (genus fire ants belong to) produce an alkaloid venom (piperidine). I have not found much research about this and pdf's as of yet, but I am researching it. I'll post what I find.

James


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## bbrock

xm41907 said:


> There are too many uncontrollable factors to this equation, however, in my opinion, I wouldn't rule out the possibility. A greater concern I would have is what have the ants been exposed to that may be detrimental to the pdf's.
> 
> James


And the flip side of this is what have the ants been exposed to that may be beneficial to the frogs. Prevailing theory suggests that anuran skin toxins originated as a microbial defense mechanism. Soooo, does restoration of some form of alkaloids to the skin provide a benefit?


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## xm41907

bbrock said:


> And the flip side of this is what have the ants been exposed to that may be beneficial to the frogs. Prevailing theory suggests that anuran skin toxins originated as a microbial defense mechanism. Soooo, does restoration of some form of alkaloids to the skin provide a benefit?




Excellent idea. I have not idea on that one. I could see the posibility of a benefit to the frogs due to ant exposure. Any biochemists on this board care to chime in?

James


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## markbudde

> And the flip side of this is what have the ants been exposed to that may be beneficial to the frogs. Prevailing theory suggests that anuran skin toxins originated as a microbial defense mechanism.


To the best of my knowledge, batrachotoxin is the (most) toxic substance found in P. terribilis, and it acts as a neuro/muscle toxin by messing with Na+ membrane gradients. I'm not so sure that a neurotoxin would be an effective antimicrobial. That said, you clearly know much more about what the prevailing theory is than I do. Any references?
-mark


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## Dendrobait

Has anyone here had much success with ant colonies taken into captivity? I've killed most of the queens I've attempted with.


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## HappyHippos1

What are the best ways to get a colony? Dig it up and put it in a bucket/aquarium? I'd love to culture ants in an aquarium, imagine a large ant farm :wink: But how would you do this without getting bitten to death. I have mostly fire ants around my parts, South Carolina. Also I've recently found little black ants (who love peanut butter) but any suggestions on finding their colony. They are mostly around the trash outside and once got inside after they found a plate with peanut butter left on it.

Would love suggestions, or a how to link.


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## bbrock

HappyHippos1 said:


> What are the best ways to get a colony? Dig it up and put it in a bucket/aquarium? I'd love to culture ants in an aquarium, imagine a large ant farm :wink: But how would you do this without getting bitten to death. I have mostly fire ants around my parts, South Carolina. Also I've recently found little black ants (who love peanut butter) but any suggestions on finding their colony. They are mostly around the trash outside and once got inside after they found a plate with peanut butter left on it.
> 
> Would love suggestions, or a how to link.


If the little black ones are the tiny little Monomorium, they are easy to collect at certain times of the year. When the ground is moist to saturated, they tend to bring their colony up near the surface. They make a typical ant hill and usually have multiple queens in the colony. They can easily be scooped at that time with a garden trowel. I've even collected intact colonies with a spoon. As the ground dries, they go deep and are much more difficult to obtain. I haven't had much luck maintaining colonies long term though. I just didn't give them the attention that they apparently needed.


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## xm41907

HappyHippos1 said:


> What are the best ways to get a colony? Dig it up and put it in a bucket/aquarium? I'd love to culture ants in an aquarium, imagine a large ant farm :wink: But how would you do this without getting bitten to death. I have mostly fire ants around my parts, South Carolina. Also I've recently found little black ants (who love peanut butter) but any suggestions on finding their colony. They are mostly around the trash outside and once got inside after they found a plate with peanut butter left on it.



If you want to collect fire ants, the best way to do this is bucket and shovel. When I was in undergrad, I worked for a fire ant research lab and we would collect colonies throughout the warm months. what we did is use 5 gal buckets, with talc spread around the inside lip( helps to keep them from climbing out). Some colonies took up to 4 buckets to collect. when you locate the colony you want to collect, have two people dig it up as fast as possible, don't try to separate them from the dirt. Collect as much as you can from the brood, and as fast as you can, as queens will burrow deeper down for protection quickly. 

Now that you have the colony you will need to separate it from the dirt. we used a custom drip system which could accommodate about 20 buckets at a time. What you want is a slow drip, maybe one drop very second or so. It will take a few days for the water level to rise up. the dirt will remain down in the water, and you are basically forcing them out of the dirt. once the water level was above the dirt, we would just scoop the ants and place them into containers. we used plastic sweeter boxes with a material called fluon. not sure where to buy it, check the internet. 

to feed the fire ants we would use a combination of yellow meal worms, frozen crickets, and honey water( 25% honey/75% water). Any other questions PM me. Also check out this posting: 
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34042&highlight=


Best of luck!,

James
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## NathanB

back from the dead!
Did anyone try raising ants for their darts?


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## HappyHippos1

I never got around to it but I am also curious. So feeding fire ants can kill the frogs? I've got tons around and would love to be able to just scoop up some dirt and give a little snack to my frogs. Will they eat the ants and then get bitten? Any info?


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## Bcs TX

I had a sugar ant colony take over my 65 gal auratus tank, my auratus did not touch them. They escape easily as they go in and out of the tank and became such a pain I had to remove frogs and tear down the tank. I found where they were getting in my house (under a door threshold) and sealed it off. I deffinately would not want any ants in my tank.
Fruit flies escape in your house and die in what seems to be a short time, ants multiply.

My opinion.

-Beth


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## JLHayes13

If you put a thin line of vaseline on the outside of the glass all the way around the tank the ants won't cross it- in or out. 

Fire ants spray formic acid; I don't think the would be good for the frogs. I used to have a close up photo of a bunch of fire ants spraying into the air; nasty. I did a project on ants in high school and I had a colony of fungus eating ants that never really took off.

I have thought about culturing a black ant colony (common ones in California). I would do so in a separate tank and collect the workers for feeding instead of allowing them in the frog's viv because even small ants could bite the frogs while they sleep.


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## Omead

I've found a few small black ants that are slightly larger than melanogasters over the past couple weeks walking on my desk near my viv. I'm not exactly sure what kind they are but when I squish them they smell kind of funny. Are these the odorous ants? I'm sure a few have slipped into the tank and were devoured but I don't like the idea of these ants that I have no idea where they've been being eaten by my frogs. I wouldn't mind collecting some from the park to feed them just not these city ants.


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## Dendro Dave

I dont know much about ants, but i do know that some species of "little black ant" was responsible for killing off 3 darklands froglets. They got into the viv while i was away one weekend. So be careful if you feed ants.


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## Ed

when considering ants one of the things to remember is that is it very different for the frogs to be capturing ants that are calmly walking around foraging and another to have a bunch of really stressed ants dumped into the closed container with them and the ants are looking to attack any potential predator and drive it off. 

Ed


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## viktor

Bubble_Man said:


> While collecting leaves for my vivarium today, I discovered a large colony of ants in the forest floor. Since they were crawiling all over me, I can safely assume they are not the biting kind. It then occurred to me that this would be a virtually unlimited backup source of food, should my fruit fly cultures ever fail.
> 
> I've read that poison dart frogs produce their toxins by consuming ants in the wild. Is there any danger that eating local ants could cause them to produce toxins? That would definately be undesirable.


I feel sure someone has brought this up before, but if not....

Darts will not eat formicine ants, which spray formic acid from their gaster (i.e. their butt). Dart will eat myrmicine ants, which have a stinger. The easiest way to tell formicine ants from myrmicine is by examining the petiole (the thin section connecting the gaster/butt to the trunk). Formicine ants have one petiole section (one bump), while myrmicine ants have two petiole sections (two bumps). So look for ants with two bumps on their petiole.

The easiest way to culture an ant colony is to capture a newly mated queen after a nuptial flight. These will be happening soon, so now is a good time. Set out a black light or look for them in the morning after it has rained.


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## HappyHippos1

I'm wondering if darts or frogs in general eating myrmicine ants (stingers) is bad for them. As in can the ants sting the inside of the frog and kill them or something?


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## NathanB

Ed said:


> when considering ants one of the things to remember is that is it very different for the frogs to be capturing ants that are calmly walking around foraging and another to have a bunch of really stressed ants dumped into the closed container with them and the ants are looking to attack any potential predator and drive it off.
> 
> Ed


I didn't even think of this


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