# Tornado down the drain



## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

You know when you drain the water out of the bath tub and it makes that horrible sucking noise....... I have that problem with my viv plumbing.


I'll try to paint a picture for you so you understand my setup(everything is 1/2" tubing, fittings). ok, two bulk heads on the back glass, both about 2" from the bottom glass. One is the "in" and one is the "out". The "in"(supplies viv water feature with quality H2O) has tubing going to the water feature. The "out"(drain line) is a threaded elbowxbarbed fitting. The threads go into the bulkhead and the barbed elbow end of it, is pointed upward to act as an overflow. 

Ok, my problem is that my pump is slightly faster at resupplying the viv than my drain is about getting the water out of the tank which is producing the awful sucking noise..... you know, from the tornado! Once the water level gets about 1" above the drain opening, then that's where the flow of things seem to level off rather than filling the viv with all the sump water. 

Would a simple valve on the return line solve this? slowing the pump down to where the drain can handle it or do you think there is a better fix? The elbow used for draining purposes is crucial to the height/amount of water I plan to have for the design so I can't really change the drain part of it, too far into the build.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

You probably can benefit from a durso stand pipe that reefers use to silence the overflow pipes. In your case, an external durso may be easier. It looks like this.










I had an external durso overflow on my old 29 gallon reef tank and it worked very well.

Search on Durso stand pipe or Stockman stand pipe and see if you can adopt it in your setup.


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks Tomoko! 

I went to lowes and got the fittings and it kinda works....... I should have put more thought into my plumbing. Like I mentioned earlier, everything is 1/2" and I also added a valve on my return line because my pump was working quicker than my drain line but now my water movement inside the tank is painfully slow and not very effective. I do plan on having FW shrimp and aquatic plants in this build. 

Now my only two thoughts to fix my problem are to try and hide some type of internal powerhead for water circulation along with my extremely slow plumbing I have right now OR order a larger glass drill bit with larger bulkhead which will help increase the amount of water drained. I do have an extra 1/2" bulkhead that matches the other two installed on the tank but if I where to use it as a second drain line, I'm afraid that may just complicate the issue I have already.

Any suggestions


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## Orchidvore (Jan 7, 2012)

Is the viv set up already? If you put a second drain line in you can have one act as a durso and one as a full siphon. That is what I do on my reef tank, and the plumbing is dead silent. You could leave the one drain you have now like it is, then setup the second drain so it sucks water from a lower level than the first drain (ie no elbow). You need to put a valve on the siphon line so you can close it off enough that it ALMOST siphons as fast as the return fills the reservoir up. Then the durso handles the little bit of flow that's left.


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

Orchidvore said:


> Is the viv set up already? If you put a second drain line in you can have one act as a durso and one as a full siphon. That is what I do on my reef tank, and the plumbing is dead silent. You could leave the one drain you have now like it is, then setup the second drain so it sucks water from a lower level than the first drain (ie no elbow). You need to put a valve on the siphon line so you can close it off enough that it ALMOST siphons as fast as the return fills the reservoir up. Then the durso handles the little bit of flow that's left.


I'm in "mid" build on this tank so drilling the glass is still an option, not for long though.

So your saying put my extra bulkhead slightly lower than my new durso pipe and do not install any fittings into the bulkhead, just let it go directly through the opening in the bulkhead? Wouldn't this create the sucking noise from this line too?

Sorry for my ignorance, I have never worked with sumps before. Just HOB's or canister filters lol


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## Frogart (Dec 24, 2011)

titansfever83 said:


> Now my only two thoughts to fix my problem are to try and hide some type of internal powerhead for water circulation along with my extremely slow plumbing I have right now OR order a larger glass drill bit with larger bulkhead which will help increase the amount of water drained. I do have an extra 1/2" bulkhead that matches the other two installed on the tank but if I where to use it as a second drain line, I'm afraid that may just complicate the issue I have already.
> 
> Any suggestions


Im pretty sure I have a 1" bulkhead running around here and know I have a hole saw for it if you want to go that route. LMK and Ill look for the bulkhead and would trade it to you for the 1/2" one you have


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

Frogart said:


> Im pretty sure I have a 1" bulkhead running around here and know I have a hole saw for it if you want to go that route. LMK and Ill look for the bulkhead and would trade it to you for the 1/2" one you have


Sounds like my best option atm. You busy tomorrow? The bulkhead I have is the cheaper one from bulkreefsupply.com


when you find the bulkhead, could you measure from center to the outside edge of it. The edge of my current bulkhead fitting is about 1/2" above the bottom aquarium trim, this may be a problem, well I just hate to trim the trim but I will if I have to.


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## Frogart (Dec 24, 2011)

titansfever83 said:


> Sounds like my best option atm. You busy tomorrow? The bulkhead I have is the cheaper one from bulkreefsupply.com
> 
> 
> when you find the bulkhead, could you measure from center to the outside edge of it. The edge of my current bulkhead fitting is about 1/2" above the bottom aquarium trim, this may be a problem, well I just hate to trim the trim but I will if I have to.


I should be around pretty much all day. Im very forgetful so text/pm me tomorrow and Ill go look for one Im positive I have a few. I dont care what the brand one you have Ill use it for a drain on one of my vivs


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

> now my water movement inside the tank is painfully slow and not very effective.


Are you trying to create a paludarium? I am not sure what you are trying to do with the pump. Are you trying to circulate the water in the pond section? Any waterfall? Some people use a canister filter to run a paludarium. 

1/2 inch line can handle up to 420 gph unless there is a 90 degree bend on the output side of the bulkhead. One inch line can handle up to 960 gph with no restriction. These gph number is the figure that you use when you select your pump. You also need to figure the head (how many feet the pump has to lift the water up to) on the pump which reduces the pump's output. Any bend on your line also reduces the flow rate considerably.


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## nakigara (Feb 8, 2012)

titansfever83 said:


> Would a simple valve on the return line solve this? slowing the pump down to where the drain can handle it or do you think there is a better fix? The elbow used for draining purposes is crucial to the height/amount of water I plan to have for the design so I can't really change the drain part of it, too far into the build.


One method I recently read about (and I plan to use in my next paludarium) is to split the return from the sump, have one end go to the tank/water feature, and have the other end go back to the sump. stick a valve on the end returning to the sump, and open or close it until you get the desired flow rate to the waterfall. As far as the pump is concerned, it's not being restricted, so it shouldn't be damaged, and you still get to control the flow rate. plus, any excess flow that you are not using just gets refiltered/reoxygenated.

I haven't priced parts yet, but I would imagine it would be a pretty inexpensive setup (hell, if you wanted to do really budget ghetto cheap, you could just use some vinyl tubing and zipties/knots to control the flow. - I wouldn't trust it though...)


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

Tomoko Schum said:


> Are you trying to create a paludarium? I am not sure what you are trying to do with the pump. Are you trying to circulate the water in the pond section? Any waterfall? Some people use a canister filter to run a paludarium.
> 
> 1/2 inch line can handle up to 420 gph unless there is a 90 degree bend on the output side of the bulkhead. One inch line can handle up to 960 gph with no restriction. These gph number is the figure that you use when you select your pump. You also need to figure the head (how many feet the pump has to lift the water up to) on the pump which reduces the pump's output. Any bend on your line also reduces the flow rate considerably.



I will have more water surface than land surface. imagine Grimms peninsula tank but a TRUE peninsula. that's my tank.... land with water on three sides. No terrestrial plants, just epiphytes and aquatic plants, maybe a few semi-aquatic.

I am trying to get a decent amount of return flow that it reaches the other end of the tank(tank is 30"x18"x24"tall). the return water is traveling the 30" meaning my bulk head is on the 18" side of the tank. The bottom of my tank is tempered, so no bulkheads there

I have a 90 degree elbow on the inside of the tank and on the outside of the tank for the drain side. The elbow on the inside faces up with the newly added durso design on it. the outside elbow faces down going to the sump. The return side only has an elbow on the outside. 

My problem is my pump(marineland maxi-jet 1100) is too powerful. My drain cannot keep up with it since I have elbows on both sides of my drain bulkhead slowing the draining capabilities of the 1/2" opening. If I remove the elbow and durso pipe on the inside of the tank to allow the water to drain directly through the bulkhead opening, then that eliminates my water flow problem but then my water level is too low for my design because it is now down where the opening of the bulkhead is.


I'm trying to be as clear as I can. The height of my water is crucial in this build and I also want a decent water flow within the tank just mainly for oxygenation and to eliminate stagnant areas. I think by making the drain larger, then that will solve my problem. I will keep my current pump, which has the ideal flow I'm looking for and by using a 1" drain(with elbows) rather than a 1/2" drain(with elbows), it will drain properly according to my pumps output without having to slow the pump down by installing a valve.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm picky, cheap, unable to explain things clearly, and apparently have horrible problem solving skills too

I'll will do the the larger bulkhead installation tomorrow and keep you guys posted.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

I am still not very clear on a few things. 

You say that the water depth is critical for your design. If you want your water surface to be at a certain level, then your drain hole/overflow needs to be up near the desired water surface. 

Is this a closed loop system or do you have a sump?

If you just need to circulate the water in your paludarium to eliminate stagnation and oxygenate water, you don't need to have a closed loop or a sump. You can just use your pump/powerhead to circulate water. There is no need to take the water outside of your paludarium. Why have a drain hole? If you allow your aquatic plants to photosynthesize, they will oxygenate the water very well. Having a slight surface agitation can oxygenate water as well. Fish and inverts in your paludarium should be able to provide nutrients and CO2 that sciophytic aquatic plants so that they can photosynthesize. It seems to me that adding an external pump seems to be complicating the situation in your case.


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## nakigara (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't know what the OP's setup is, or their intentions, but I there are some definite benefits of a sump.

If water level is critical, a proper set-up with overflows and such should maintain a constant water level in the tank, while the sump serves as a reservoir of sorts.

Plus, you can use the sump to house any needed heating elements, the pump, etc. and have a minimum of stuff in the tank itself.

Depending on the setup, you could use the sump as a tank as well, for plants/aquatic critters, whatever- maybe things that may not be directly compatible with the vivarium tenants, but could share a water supply.


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

Tomoko Schum said:


> I am still not very clear on a few things.
> 
> You say that the water depth is critical for your design. If you want your water surface to be at a certain level, then your drain hole/overflow needs to be up near the desired water surface.
> 
> ...



My bulkhead drain was drilled too low... the reason for adding the elbow(poor planning on my part) I changed my mind on the desired water depth AFTER drilling the bulkheads. The return bulkhead is also the same height so no way to fix the problem by switching the ins and outs.

The drain line will pour into a filter sock which will be located in a 10 gal tank underneath the actual viviarium/paludarium. With a simple Maxi-jet pump to return the water back to the viv. 

I wanted to go external with the pump for filtration purposes, heaters, etc and to not take up anymore room in the viv itself. 

Again, this is my first time using bulkheads/external pumps so it is a little trial and error for me right now.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

I have sumps for my reef tanks, and they are handy as you mentioned. However, I find that a sump is not really necessary for fresh water setup although it can keep the power cords out of sight instead of dangling from the tank. That is if all sides of the tank is meant to be visible to viewers. 

You can simply have an independant system inside the tank stand for keeping additional aquatic plants or other livestock. With such a small amount of water in the paludarium, a powerhead/pump can heat up water enough that you may not need any heater, especially in the south. If you do need a small heater, you may be able to hide it under the egg crate beneath the land mass.

I am not trying to discourage you from having a sump. I am simply pointing out a simpler alternative. 



> I wanted to go external with the pump for filtration purposes, heaters, etc and to not take up anymore room in the viv itself.


It seems to me that a small canister filter with a built-in heater can do the same thing. Aquatic plants are the best filter of them all, though.


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## titansfever83 (Jan 10, 2011)

Tomoko Schum said:


> I have sumps for my reef tank setup, and they are handy as you mentioned. However, I find that a sump is not really necessary for fresh water setup although it can keep the power cords out of sight instead of dangling from the tank. That is if all sides of the tank is meant to be visible to viewers.
> 
> You can simply have an independant system inside the tank stand for keeping additional aquatic plants or other livestock. With such a small amount of water in the paludarium, a powerhead/pump can heat up water enough that you may not need any heater, especially in the south. If you do need a small heater, you may be able to hide it under the egg crate beneath the land mass.
> 
> I am not trying to discourage you from having a sump. I am simply pointing out a simpler alternative.



Thanks tomoko, but my false bottom is too small and will be unaccessable once the tank is built to have any type of pump, powerhead, or heater in the viv. Plus I like the fact of having everything in the sump just for emergency reasons.

I tend to try to perfect everything I do. Once I have a design or idea in mind, I will stick to it and do everything I can to make it work even if it complicates the build. But when it's all said and done, then I won't look back and say " I wish I would have done this or that" 

I'm almost certain by adding this 1" bulkhead, that I will get the results I'm looking for. I will try to upload pics once I get the issue resolved. I have lost my usb cable so thats why I haven't posted any tonight which may have answered some of your questions Tomoko, pictures are worth a thousand words!


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

If you are going to have a sump and an external pump, you will probably need an overflow box built around the bulkhead or an elbow with a tall enough riser to keep the water surface to the level that you desire. Otherwise, you water surface will be down to where the bulkhead is going to be. An elbow with a riser can get a bit noisy/slurpy unless your inflow and outflow are matched well. I am sure that Joey can help you with the design of the overflow tomorrow.


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## morphman (May 20, 2011)

Hi there,


Just wanted to mention this as I've run into this issue multiple times cause I build only Paludariums. IMHO if you use a canister filter in conjunction with an inline heater that will provide you with everything you need. You get filtration, heating water circulation and aeration. I also found more disadvantages than advantages with sumps but I'm not discouraging you from using it either. Also if it helps I had tons of cool snails and shrimp breeding inside the filter


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

One inch bulkhead may require you to go up on the pump size even with a Durso stand pipe restricting the drain flow. One inch pipe can deliver quite a bit of flow.

I remember that I used a larger ViaAqua pump with a 700 gph capacity for my 29 gallon reef tank with one inch bulkhead on the back wall (drilled close to the water surface.) The ViaAqua pump worked well with a good head pressure silently and without much heat input. It can deliver about 500 gph at 4 ft head. I had a one inch tubing and a modified external durso standpipe on the drain side and 1/2 inch tubing on the return side. I had a small internal overflow box instead of an elbow inside the tank to keep the water surface right at the bottom of the upper trim. The modified durso and the overflow box were the critical parts that maintained the water surface level.

Here's the picture of the modified durso. I later removed the manual ball valve.










You can see the drain tubing and the tiny flow control valve installed above the cap on the Tee. 










The centerline of the horizontal part of the Tee is where the water level inside the tank is going to be. It kept the water level right in the middle of the vertical teeth cut on the overflow box.

I hope this helps. It is a balancing act, but it is manageable. A sump is great to have for a reef tank because it has a lot more equipment than a fw tank, such as a skimmer, a fan or a chiller, and various reactors. A fresh water tank is better served by a canister filter with an inline or a bult-in heater IMHO.

I agree with morphman about the shrimp and snails. They are not only fun but also critical for keeping the underwater area free of nuisance algae.


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## Orchidvore (Jan 7, 2012)

Are you going to add the 1" bulkhead, or try to drill over the 1/2" hole? If you're adding a new hole in, you could still set it up the way I suggested. Here's the thread on a reef forum about this style of drain: Silent and Failsafe Overflow System - Reef Central Online Community

There's two ways to make a drain run quieter: reduce the flow going through it, or increase the size of the drain. The siphoning drain works just like sticking a hose in the tank and sucking on the end. Only water flows through, no air, so no gurgling. You put a valve on this line so you can close it off enough that the siphon doesn't suck out water faster than your pump and starts to pull air. Then the other drain handles the little trickle of flow leftover.

I've tried straight drain pipes, durso's, and this siphon/durso on my reefs and this setup is by far the quietest and easiest to get working right.

What side of the tank are you drilling the holes in? The 18" wide section? How far up are the holes? It's best to drill holes so that there is as much glass between the edge of a hole and an edge of the glass pane as the diameter of the hole, otherwise you weaken the glass too much. So if a 1" bulkhead needs a 1 3/4" hole the edges should be at least 1 3/4" from the edge of the glass pane, or any other hole in the glass. 

Not trying to confuse you or anything, just giving you another option.


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## Frogart (Dec 24, 2011)

Tomoko Schum said:


> I am sure that Joey can help you with the design of the overflow tomorrow.


In this case he was better off with a bigger drain(bulkhead) being a side drain to handle the flow.

Keep us posted on how it works out.


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## Tomoko Schum (Jan 14, 2012)

Frogart said:


> In this case he was better off with a bigger drain(bulkhead) being a side drain to handle the flow.
> 
> Keep us posted on how it works out.


I am glad that you guys got the issue sorted out.


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