# Quite concerned about frogs condition...lots of pics



## divingne1

A while back I posted a photo of my frog that I thought might be getting overweight. Yesterday I noticed a "double chin". Today it is bigger and she seems to be swollen instead of overweight and I am concerned there is a health issue here. She eats as hearty as she always has, always hunting, she is very active, she isn't soaking in water, we completed the panacur treatment for hookworms last week, the tank is sprayed with RO/DI water, the temp has been maintaining at around 78 during the day - between 73 and 75 at night. The only thing I have witnessed her doing that was odd to me was rest on her belly. She was laying on a perch one day with her legs hung over the perch (like a panther does when resting on a tree limb) and she was resting on her belly. She got up and came down to the floor of the viv. as soon as I put flies in and ate. I dust with Rep-Cal and Herbavite rotating every feeding. I was feeding daily but have since switched to every other day and cut back on the amount of flies. My supplements were opened 4/21/08.
The local vet said she could take a look at her but didn't really know what she would be looking for. 
These are photos from today
































This photo was 5/23/08 








And this one 5/11/08








You can hopefully see how quickly she has gained size in her belly. I started the every other day feeding 2 weeks ago. Her tank mate is what I would consider a slender frog. 
Any suggestions? I looked at the care sheet/first aid section on Bloat. I am wondering if this could be bloat, an impaction or something else. 

Candy


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## Frognut

By the looks of the pics they are about 6months old and should be eating alot. they as adults will have a double chin :lol: yours dont look full grown yet, so let them eat cake!


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## divingne1

They are around 8 months old. So do you think she just looks nice and fat? So don't be concerned about how big she is? Am I just being overly worried (typical mom type thing) and need to chill out?
Candy


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## Frognut

I realy havent had any frogs with bloat, but I have seen it at another breeders frogs and they wernt active at all and he said it can be sudden. and impaction, it will pass little or no fecal. plenty of food and lots of spots for them to hide or perch is best. Azureus are pigs! mine will eat till they are round then look thin again 24hrs later.


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## divingne1

UPDATE:
I e-mailed Dr. Frye photos of her today. The photos had to be cropped and lightened through photoshop so that is why they kind of suck. Flashes don't like to work when the background is white. 
Anyway. He said she looks bloated and prescribed some meds that are being mailed to me, and a pedialyte soak. He said it could be due to a number of things but treating her this way is doing all I can do for her. I hope she makes it. I'll have to rename her though...fatty patty might not be appropriate anymore. 
Photos from today:
























Candy


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## Leucs2008

I hope everything works out for Fatty Patty! What makes them bloat like this? Poor thing! She looks like how I feel sometimes!


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## divingne1

Dr. Frye said it could be any number of things such as infection, cancer, blockage, parasites, ovarian cysts, ovarian ruptures, and other problems. He was very straight forward and said that bloat is extremely difficult to treat. I would be surprised if she did pull through but I am hoping anyway. I started her Pedialyte soak last night and as soon as the medicine arrives, I will begin that treatment. He said once I begin the medication, if it is something that can be treated then I should see an improvement in 3-5 days. He was very honest in saying she may get better, she may not...it just really depends on what the cause is. I am hoping it is infection because that can be treated. 
Candy


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## flyangler18

Have you isolated the frog in question in a hospital tank? You can put the frog in a plastic shoebox or similar container using a paper towel substrate moistened with the Pedialyte (I use Amphibian Ringers Solution(ARS) which is far better). You'll have to change the paper towel regularly, because the Pedialyte might encourage some bacterial/fungal growth due to the glucose. 

Bloat is a symptom rather than a disease, so the causes could be anything from renal failure to a bacterial infection (and everything in between).

Jason


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## divingne1

She is in a hospital tank now...a 10g tank. If she is sitting on paper towels soaked in Pedialyte, does she still need her 10 minute soak in it. What exactly is the Pedialyte doing for her? How often do you change the paper towels? Where do you get Amphobian Ringer Solution?
Candy


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

hope everything works out for you, i've lost about 3 frogs due to the bloat, it sucks, good luck


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## divingne1

Thanks Redeyetreefrog. I hope she does too but she sure looks bad.
Here are photos of todays soak. Does it look like I am doing this right? Is she getting enough liquid on her? I am afraid of drowning her so I don't have that much liquid in the cup.
















Candy


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## NathalieB

I had a just-morphed azureus with a pretty bad case of bloat, that survived and is now doing great.

As mentioned, bloat can have a lot of reasons and many of them are difficult to impossible to diagnose. So you do need a dose of luck with the treatment.

I think in my frog's case it was some kind of bacterial infection and I treated with some mild anti-bacterial medicine for fish.
At some point he looked like his mouth was going to rip from the pression on his skin. We then carefully pierced the skin of his troath to allow some kind of drainage.
this is what he looked like:




he was in a pretty bad shape at a very frigale periode in his development, but he pulled trough and is now groing at the same rate as his siblings and you cannot see a difference. I am holding on to him to see if he will continue to develop at a normal rate and doesn't have any problems or weaknesses as a result of his difficult start.

but just want to say: there is still hope


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## flyangler18

> What exactly is the Pedialyte doing for her? How often do you change the paper towels? Where do you get Amphobian Ringer Solution?


Ed wrote an excellent article on the subject of supportive care here, and he's far more versed in the science than I am. 

The Amphibian Ringer Solution is available from Fisher Scientific.

Good luck!


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## divingne1

She only ate a few flies tonight a few hours after her Pedialyte soak. I am really sad about her condition and am starting to see a decline in her activity and interest in exploring. I am hoping it is just due to me having to handle her to give her the soak which I am sure is stressingher out. I hope it isn't due to her condition getting the best of her. She was active and eating hearty until I had to handle her. I am sure I will shed a tear if I lose her just like I did the first time I lost a fish. I lost a Moorish Idol and cried like a baby.  
Candy


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## Leucs2008

We'll keep our fingers crossed for her.  There is nothing wrong with crying over a pet. We put so much heart & soul into them, of course we would be sad.


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## flyangler18

If the frog's activity level is decreasing, dosing with calcium gluconate might also be in order.

There's some information in the Supportive Care link that I mentioned earlier. You can get it at Tractor Supply and similar places as it has a use with livestock.


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## divingne1

I received the medication from Dr. Frye and had some questions regarding the best way to administer the medication. I called the office but it was after 6pm so I am asking anyone here who has done this treatment how you did it. My question is this...which order to I give the meds? Do I soak first, wait a little while after then put the 1 drop of Baytril on her back and then wait a while longer and do the Metronidazole drops or can I just give her the soak, then add the prescribed drops to her back immediately after.
Here she is today..I don't see any improvement in her size but the medication just started today and I do it for 10 - 14 days.








Candy


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## divingne1

I medicated her at 7pm and it is now 8:57pm. I just checked on her and this may be wishful thinking but she looked like she "felt better". I mean she was in her normal resting position of sitting up with her front legs extended instead of sitting in a crouching position that she has been in for several days. 
Candy


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## divingne1

Update: She is much worse today. She has a lot of swelling under her chin now. I found her this morning face down on the paper towels. It looks like she slipped of the leaf. Her back legs were still on the leaf. She moved when I touched her to get her out of the tank. It isn't looking real good for her I am sad to say.
Candy


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## chibisan

aw, that's too bad! I hope she makes it for you though..


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## Leucs2008

How is she doing today Candy?


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## divingne1

She is still alive but that is about all I can say for her. I found her lying on her back this morning so I thought she was dead. I picked her up to take her out of the container again and she moved once more. I gave her more medication in case there is a very slim chance she will pull through but then today when I got home from work, her tongue was sticking out of her mouth. Again, I thought she was dead but when I touched her tongue, she moved it. To be honest, she is so big that I can't see her breath and I will have no idea when she is actually dead. As long as she moves something, I'll continue to medicate her. As silly as this sounds (and yes I am a girl with a huge soft heart for animals) I fight tears everytime I see her and am fighting them now as I type this. It is just so sad to see her like this. I just don't know if I should put her out of her misery or hang on for hopes that the medicine may actually work. I personally feel she is too far gone. My husband told me this morning that I should just euthanize her and I probably should. I just keep hoping nature will do it for me. I can't even bring myself to take pictures of her condition it looks so bad to me.

I also think this is affecting me so bad because she is my first frog ever. She was the surviving one on the first order (the second died in shipment). She was usually the first one out to greet me when it was feeding time.
Candy


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## Leucs2008

Oh, Im so sorry...


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## divingne1

I just went to check on her and she pulled her tongue back in her mouth when I opened the lid.
Candy


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## heyduke

hang in there and know you are doing the best that you can. i hope all turns out well.

sean


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## divingne1

This morning her tongue isn't out again (like it was when I went to bed) but there is no movement from her at all. I can't see her breathing because she is so big. She is laying on the papertowels in the same position I left her in last night. Her eyes are open...not half closed. I have no idea if she is dead or alive. I can't tell at this point. I could very well be treating a dead frog for all I know. Is there any surefire ways of telling if she is dead or alive? She feels sticky but I can see her slimy coat in some parts. Some of it came off during her last bath.
Candy


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## divingne1

At least I know I am not treating a dead frog. This evening when I got home from work, I checked on her and she had moved herself to lay between two leaves. She wasn't moving at all for the past 2 days so I was covering her up with a large maple leaf but she apparently wanted to sit on a leaf and be covered with a second one. 

She is still really sticky. I guess it is because she hasn't been taking care of herself.
Candy


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## Leucs2008

Atleast she's moving some. Hang in there.


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## divingne1

I could be getting excited about absolutely nothing but she is moving around more. I just checked on her and she is holding herself up again and she had moved around again. She got her back leg caught in the tear of a leaf so I just tore the rest of the leaf away from her leg, made sure she was moist and covered her up again. If she is still holding herself up tomorrow morning, I will try to put a few flies dusted in calcium in there to see if she will eat them. If not I will take them out.
Here are some photos taken a few minutes ago.
The hospital container - she was moved from the 10g due to heat issues
























You may be able to see the brown area around her arms and face...that is the slim coat I was talking about.

Candy


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## divingne1

She is still with me. She is moving around a bit but not eating. It looks like her chin isn't as tightly swollen as it was however it is still quite swollen. 
Candy


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## dom

im rootin for her.. if she can hear me cheering her on from florida!!


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## divingne1

She is definately more alert this morning than she has been. The medicine doesn't seem to be absorbing though. It just kind of stays on top of her back in a droplet and then rolls off. It stayed on her back when she wasn't sitting up. 
Candy


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## divingne1

In case you guys are not tired of getting daily updates, she is trying to climb the side of the container tonight. She still won't eat but she is definately getting herself around more. She is just as big as she has been but she seems to get a little tighter after her soak. A few hours after her soak, the swollen area under her mouth gets droopy again. I can not find calcuim here...would putting the Rep-Cal powder in water and soaking her do any good?
Candy


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## Leucs2008

Im not tired of hearing updates. I keep finding myself wondering how she's doing, so, I come & check. Thats got to be a good sign that she's moving around. I wouldnt think that putting calcium in her bath would hurt. She needs it. What about her vitamins? Have you tried putting the FF in the fridge for 5 minutes before giving them. That way she could just sit & feast instead of chasing them. It slows them down alot.


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## divingne1

I think the issue with her not eating is I don't think she has room to look around at the frogs. She only looks up because of all the swelling under her chin. I am also wondering if she would have problems swollowing the flies with all the swelling. I am going to go take an updated photo of her in a few minutes and post it to see if you guys think she is getting better as well. I think she looked smaller today but I need/want a second opinion. 
As far as the calcium, I got an e-mail from the person I purchased the frogs from who said they could send me the calcium for her to soak in. I don't know if that is normal practice in this hobby but that kindness just blew me away. Not only does that person care about their frogs, get them shipped to you and keeps you in contact during shipment but also offers to help you out even after you have had them for a while. This person is all the way on the oposite end of the US. That is amazing care and service in my opinion. I know when I buy an expensive salt water fish ($150 majestic angel to be exact), the store I purchased it from does not offer to give me medicine for it. 
Candy


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## divingne1

After looking at the photo, she definately isn't getting smaller. It must have been the position she was in earlier. Anyway, here she is today. I am wondering if I should throw her leaves away and use new ones when I change her papertowels. You can kind of see what I mean by the droopyness of her chin.








Candy


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## salix

The poor thing, I'm glad to see she's still hanging in there (as long as she isn't suffering unnecessarily). I keep expecting to check in here and find out she is gone.

The auratus I got were tiny little froglets, so I had assumed when I got them they would still be quite fragile. One of them bloated not too long after I got them. After a couple of days the swelling went down and it was fine and eating again. A few days later, it bloated again and that time it didn't make it.

Bloat sucks, but unfortunately, from what I've read, it's just a symptom of a bigger problem.

Good luck with your frog.


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## divingne1

See, what I struggle with is this...am I making he suffer unnecessarily? Do I keep her alive and continue to medicate her if I see an improvement in her activity. She started trying to climb the container again today (not much room to climb though). If she is wanting to climb, do I put her back in the 10g tank so she has room to climb. Now that I got 2 thermometers that are keeping the same temp, I don't think I have an issue with the 10g being too hot. Climbing the glass to her viv was something she always did until about a week before I started treating her. I guess we never really do know what the right thing to do it. We just do what we think we should do.
Candy


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## divingne1

When I went to get her for her bath soak this evening, she opened her mouth and closed it real fast. I wonder if she was trying to bite me. I had to actually chase her around her little container today. First time she has run from me since I have been treating her. I think she is getting really tired of me messing with her but I have to do it just in case whatever her illness is can be treated.
Candy


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## salix

Actually, I think it sounds encouraging that she has the energy to try and escape.


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## Leucs2008

I agree.


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## divingne1

I hope she is getting better but I see different places swelling now. Some of the places like her stomach and chin are turning a brown color. I still want to know how she is going to get rid of all this fluid if she does survive this. I know yard toads pee and dart frogs have kidneys but I have never seen mine pee so I don't know if she will pee all this fluid out.
Candy


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## divingne1

She is back in her 10g hospital tank now so she can climb the glass if she wants to. I put some ff in there tonight and she perked up and started watching them. I put her coco hut over her and 5 minutes later I came back in the room and found her on the opposite side of the tank. Here are the photos from tonight. Still no change in size. She did her "I'm going to bite you if you touch me" mouth smack again. 

This one was on the bed
















This one was in her tank








Candy


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## NathalieB

I think the opening and closing of the mouth is "gasping" for air. I have seen many frogs do this when they are being handled for treatment and are stressed. And I have seen some very fat, greedy frogs do it when they got overly-exited chasing fruitflies.


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## chibisan

I hope she makes it for you!

I'm no expert, but I would almost think that the more she moves around, the better since it would probably help move things along I would think...


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## divingne1

She tried to go after a ff tonight and it just broke my heart to watch her. She basically fell over and did a summer sault when she lunged at one. I think she has been eating them some though because there were a lot less in the tank today from the amount I fed her last night. She just really hates her soaks. When I go to handle her, I can feel resistance in her legs now. I know that sounds stupid but for a while there her legs were just kind of floppy.
Candy


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

jeeze i keep checking on this thread i really want this lil frog to make it!!!! HOPE SHE GETS BETTER!!


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## divingne1

She is giving it all she's got.
Candy


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## divingne1

She is still with me today. Not as much of a fight today though. She was all over the tank this morning but was back in her coco hut this evening when I got home. I think she heard me open the garage door so she ran and hid. She is getting really tired of these soaks. Still no change in size or anything.
Candy


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## divingne1

What does it mean when her front feed are turning under. She is moving around but her feet are turning under. Is it due to the lack of calcium? I get the calcium in the mail today and will start her on her calcium soak as soon as I get home. Will this help the problem?
Candy


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## moothefrog

I had some frogs that bloated up because of parasites on the brom,and died.


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## divingne1

The little girl did not make it. She fought like hell ( at least she fought me like hell anyway). Thanks to all of you who hung in there with me. It's a first loss and it sucks but at least I don't have to keep making her miserable handling her. 
Candy


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## calvinyhob

sorry for your loss


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## flyangler18

It always sucks losing a frog, but you've gained some valuable experience as a result.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog

that sucks im sorry to hear, are you searching for a replacement


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## divingne1

I do want to replace her but the weather is just so hot that I fear shipping one right now. 
Candy


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## salix

Was this the first one you got or the one that was a replacement for the one that died in shipping the first time around? Just curious.

I'm sorry for your loss of the frog.


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## divingne1

She was the very first. The one that I got as a replacement is a male. He misses his girl too.
Candy


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## flyangler18

> I do want to replace her but the weather is just so hot that I fear shipping one right now.


Definitely hold off on the shipping with the heat. I'm sure with some digging, you'll locate a local frogger with extra offspring.


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## Leucs2008

Oh, Im so sorry she didn't make it. I was really hoping she would. Sorry


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## divingne1

flyangler18 said:


> It always sucks losing a frog, but you've gained some valuable experience as a result.


That is for sure!! Not to mention, I have a good supply of medicine on hand for a first aid kit. 
Candy


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## flyangler18

Calcium gluconate and ARS are must-haves for an amphibian first aid kit.


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## divingne1

I have the liquid calcium gluconate but what do I mix it with? I am in FL right now but my husband said it came in yesterday. I brought my frog with me so I could treat her. I am still waiting to receive my ARS ringers. I ordered them from the company that someone linked me on this thread but they haven't sent it to me and my cc has not been charged. I had an issue with setting up an account and received several "we're having trouble" e-mails so I am going to try to just get it from somewhere else if it doesn't come in soon. 
Candy


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