# Large gravel



## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Hello all.
I am currently doing a week long internship at probably the biggest frog breeder in the country, which has been very awesome, and I have seen that they use “Yorkshire Split” as substrate in almost all their tanks. Its gravel and the pieces are relatively large, between 8 and 16 millimeters. Plants do very well in it (they do use fertilizer) and its great for hygiene, because you can easily flush it. It’s also handy for, now don’t get mad, water pools. A lot of the e. Anthonyi tanks have pools of water so that the tadpoles can grow up in there. 
Now I was wondering if any hobbyists here use it, and what the experience has been, since I was thinking of using this for my own e. Anthonyi.


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## Robru (Jan 1, 2021)

I suspect @Tijl can answer this question.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I use pea gravel as a substrate in all my most recent builds.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

I use aquarium gravel since this is esthecly more pleasing imo. 
But all gravel have the same advantage (as I already mentioned a 100x before) which is the best drainage, since it does not hold water. So small, medium, large sided gravel all have the same benefit..

The gravel Wouter uses is just 'regual gravel' (yorkshire split/ardenner spit.. it's all the same), often used for base of driveways etc in Belgium/Holland. So this can easely be found cheap and bought in bulk.

I would still never recommend water feauters in a dart frog tank. Using gravel as substrate does not change annything.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Of course it also has the biggest disadvantage.

*Weight*.



Tijl said:


> ...
> But all gravel have the same advantage (as I already mentioned a 100x before) which is the best drainage, since it does not hold water. So small, medium, large sided gravel all have the same benefit..
> ...


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Scott said:


> Of course it also has the biggest disadvantage.
> 
> *Weight*.


The 'extra' weight is imo less of a disadvantage then decaying features of all other substrate for example. 

The alsmost 'neglactable' increase in weight is also of no concern, since once a enclosure is up and running it will never be moving..


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Scott said:


> Of course it also has the biggest disadvantage.
> 
> *Weight*.


My tanks with gravel substrate weigh less than my ones with leca and ABG substrate. Primarily because I use filter mat as the base with only 1" of gravel versus 3-4" of ABG substrate in the other tanks


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Thanks very much all! 
And Tijl, regarding the water feature, if a tank has more than ample space for the frogs themselves, and just a small, filtered water area, would you consider this a problem? 
A water feature is absolutely no must in the tank, but seeing the Anthonyi tanks with everything happening in there, calling frogs, tadpoles being carried around, eggs everywhere and the tadpoles growing up in the tank is just so enjoyable for me to watch.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Thanks very much all!
> And Tijl, regarding the water feature, if a tank has more than ample space for the frogs themselves, and just a small, filtered water area, would you consider this a problem?
> A water feature is absolutely no must in the tank, but seeing the Anthonyi tanks with everything happening in there, calling frogs, tadpoles being carried around, eggs everywhere and the tadpoles growing up in the tank is just so enjoyable for me to watch.


If you like that, I think you'd probably more interested in keeping Oophaga or eggfeeding Ranitomeya.

Ofcourse it can be done if the waterfeature is kept clean and not making the tank to humid or soaked. But you'd always have to 'pollute' the waterfeature with the tadpoles need for a foodscoure. Another potential issue could be having multiple generation of Anthonyi tadpoles beeing deposited in the same waterfeature. 

I've try to raise multiple generations together myselve and the older tadpoles always ended eating the younger tadpoles. 

Also, the large number of those tadpoles would make a waterfeature easely becomento small in no time.
One breeding pair of Anthonyi can easely go for around 90 tadpoles each month. This would mean before the forst ones morph out, you could get around 270 tadpoles in one small area.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Definitely want pumilio or imitators in the future, just scared with such frail small little froglets in such little quantities. But you’re right.
The way its done here at Nasuta is a relatively thick layer of gravel with a depression for an even lower layer of water, my guess is around an inch. This way the surface for the frogs is definitely not soaked. I will look out that it does not get too humid, and otherwise I will increase ventilation. The tank I have in mind to do this has pretty good ventilation as is, so I think it will be okay.
Would “polluting” the water area not be good for the vivarium? Here the tanks are all planted with plants like philodendrons, who’s root systems bury through the gravel and to the water. Would it not be good fertilizing? Because the water is a layer in the whole footprint, and not a small closed off section, the volume is relatively large so I feel like nh4/no3/no2 would not build up as fast.
Personally I have not experienced the cannibalism between sizes, but definitely something to look out for.
As for overpopulation in the pond, I have nothing to argue, that might be a problem, or I will atleast have to scoop a portion of the tadpoles out and raise them seperately.

Thanks again for the thorough discussion!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> The alsmost 'neglactable' increase in weight is also of no concern, since once a enclosure is up and running it will never be moving..











Glass Thickness


I was looking around on kijiji for some glass for the doors on a build using glass from an old aquarium. Using that glass, I would have a footprint of 18 x 18, which, after much reading, seems a bit on the small side for my liking. I've found someone selling a large number of panes of 3/16"...




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Best tank heating method?


Planning on getting a couple darts, not exactly sure which yet. But I tend to keep my house cold so will need a heater. I'm seeing really conflicting information about the best way to heat it. I'm planning for a false bottom with Leca, then dirt and plants and whatnot. I already have a heat pad...




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Urgent Help Needed!


Hi, I have a large 100x40x50cm tank with 4 11 month old leucs in it. I've had them about a month and they've been really active, eating and happy. Last weekend I went away and asked a friend who knows a lot about reptiles and amphibians to look after them, gave them a detailed list of how to...




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Moving Frogs and Tank in Cold Weather


I might be relocating in January and I am worried about moving my 18x18x24 with two Imitator Varaderos. What can I do to keep the frogs & plants healthy during the move? Ricky




www.dendroboard.com





Four threads in the last three weeks mentioning moving vivs. 

I'm settled down since taking up dart frogs, but earlier in life I moved with a large reef tank (counts on fingers) six times, as far as a 12 hour drive. What I wouldn't have given for a lighter load...


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## John J M (Jul 30, 2021)

Ok now I'm curious. Why no pools/ponds in dart frog vivariums? I've been incorporating at least one pool in every vivarium I've made so far and found it useful. For instance if the water level in the drainage is too high I can easily lower the level. Also I coat and use clay in the bottom along with some oak leaves and topped with java moss and frequently find frogs enjoying a soak.

Curious also why use gravel instead of just pure LECA pellets? Wouldn't that grow plants just as easily as gravel with much less weight?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Glass Thickness
> 
> 
> I was looking around on kijiji for some glass for the doors on a build using glass from an old aquarium. Using that glass, I would have a footprint of 18 x 18, which, after much reading, seems a bit on the small side for my liking. I've found someone selling a large number of panes of 3/16"...
> ...


Ok, I understand thid happens if needed but it 'normaly' should be a rare event.

Moving a tank around 'for fun' is something you want to avoid if possible. Giving.a terrarium or aquarium a fixed spot and making sure it's in a room that doesnt fluxuate in temperature is always the firstthing one would want.

Moving a tank around 'for fun' is just asking for possibilities in breaking glass or other damage but also brings a lot of stress to the animals.

But I understand if it has to be moved, it has to be moved..


As @fishingguy12345 already said, it's not more weight.
Leca + substrate weighs the same or even more depending on the amount of gravel or clayballs used..


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

What about microfauna? I could see springtails doing fine on gravel but I feel like isopods would be limited to the leaf litter..


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> Moving a tank around 'for fun' is something you want to avoid if possible. Giving.a terrarium or aquarium a fixed spot and making sure it's in a room that doesnt fluxuate in temperature is always the firstthing one would want.


I completely agree with those evaluations. The practical reality is different, though -- possibly in part an American thing? We move house hundreds/thousands of miles pretty readily; we may be much more likely to have carpeted floors that need replacing every decade or so, and so on.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I completely agree with those evaluations. The practical reality is different, though -- possibly in part an American thing? We move house hundreds/thousands of miles pretty readily; we may be much more likely to have carpeted floors that need replacing every decade or so, and so on.


Haha, yes.. I did not add that data to my equation.

This is a great example of 'cultural'/'geographical' difference that has influence on how to approach the hobby.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

thedudeabides said:


> What about microfauna? I could see springtails doing fine on gravel but I feel like isopods would be limited to the leaf litter..


I can find isopods everywhere in the tanks. Including the gravel. But it's a good reason to create larger area's of leaflitter 😄


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Tijl said:


> I can find isopods everywhere in the tanks. Including the gravel. But it's a good reason to create larger area's of leaflitter 😄


No such thing as too much leaf litter. 

I have no issues finding dwarf whites in my gravel substrate builds. And no issues with springtails either


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## Imatreewaterme (May 19, 2021)

You guys have no issues with plants growing in gravel over ABG? How do jewel orchids do in gravel for example?

Ricky


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

I have no experience myself but at Nasuta they use ProVito fertilizer every so often. Although they do ofcourse need more plant growth because they sell them aswell. So I don’t know if they _need_ it.


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