# Why All the Fuss About False Bottoms?



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I have often wondered why people go to such trouble to build false bottoms. What are you falsies trying/expecting to gain  ? Maybe a pro and con list?


Rich


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Here's my reply Rich: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28746


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## *slddave* (Jun 2, 2006)

This is just my personal opinion, but I favor false bottoms because I feel they drain the best. Water has natural tendancies to creep upwards on small surfaces so that's why I stay away from lecca and gravel. Also a false bottom is easy to create and is lighter than gravel/lecca. Oh yes one more thing, a false bottom can hold a larger volume of water


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

For me it is usually a matter of weight. I hate trying to lift 100 pounds of gravel. Also, it is always cheaper for me. Being into aquariums, I have a ton of false bottoms ready-made for aquariums. The gravel I would have to buy.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I am going for lighter, gives more flexibility in multiple substrate levels, and doesnt wick moisture like leca (thus leaving the substrate more dry in tanks that need frequent misting.)


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Well, first off LECA and water weigh just about the same. There is not a big enough difference to be notable , in my opinion. In fact I have actually seen LECA float. Second, I almost consider LECA a false bottom so pros and cons with comparing LECA and false bottoms makes no sense to me.
Water drains through a good natural substrate just as it does LECA and a big old pool of water under my tank does not make any sense to me. Pulling pumps should be a rare occurence and when it happens it really does not seem that much difference in pulling a pump in a falsie or out of substrate. It may be easier in substrate because there is not a true manufactured structure with mass of the whole bottom. Draining of water out of a tank should be the same with either. Plants will seek the substrate they like and as I have said many times before I think of the frogs first and the plants eighth or so. Trapped frogs in falsies are read of all the time. LECA look ugly as can be. LECA costs more and does less than 'dirt' . Ditto with the falsies. What tanks need frequent misting? Why would we need large volumes of water? Peat brick is very fibrous, very loaded with tannins, and very natural looking. How often do we drain our vivs on average? I drain about three vivs out of about 60 about once every three months.
I'll stop there and let others field some of the questions I bring up.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

false bottoms are nothing special, its just another way of adding a drainage layer. there not too much trouble to make/setup. in some cases they are actually easier then a leca or gravel bottom.

hmm...pros...
*if you have a pump under the substrate, or want to install a bulkhead and drain to use a reservoir, much easier with a false bottom then to worry about holding back gravel.
*easier to have a large pond with a false bottom then with gravel or leca, just cut a slanted piece, attach it on with zip ties, maybe lean a flat rock against it to hide it. with gravel or leca you need some way to stop the stuff from collapsing unless the pond is tiny.
*Its easier to clean a false bottom then gravel or leca (which could eventually get clogged with sediment), just need to stick a hose down and flood it with water to stir up any sediment and then drain it.
*its easier to remove a false bottom if your disassembling a viv. with gravel you need a place to put it and all the dirty water that comes with it (ever drain an aquarium that was set up for a long time? filthy, filthy gravel)
*also the weight factor. a lighter tank is far easier to move around, especially if its a large tank.

hmm..cons...maybe?
*takes maybe at most a half hour to make and install a fasle bottom compared to the few mins needed to dump in gravel or leca. although its generally good to rinse off gravel and leca first which might take a considerable amount of time depending on how much you need.
*more expensive...maybe. one sheet of egg crate and one 8ft pvc pipe will cost about $20 and be enough for maybe five 10 gallon vivs, many more if they are verts, and the more false bottoms your making at once, the quicker they can be made (don't need to cut pieces one at a time). enough gravel for the same amount of vivs might be more expensive, unless you buy it from a hardware shop, but then you'll get to enjoy spending a few hours cleaning all the sand off it.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I am with Rich, I have never seen the big draw. It has it's advantages when doing a complex design, especially a palidarium, but it look terrible if not covered. I have heard people say that they like people to see their false bottom because it shows others that it had to be built. To me that is like building a beautiful garden and then running the sprinkler piping above ground just so people know you built it. It is distracting and not natural. The weight concern however is valid. I get around this by using non-biodegradable packing peanuts, they weigh almost nothing and I hide that with a layer of silicone.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

What is this gravel spoken of and why is it or LECA used as opposed to 'dirt'?
As to weight, are we bench pressing our vivs now? 

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

guess gravel could be any type of stone.

i guess ideally would be small gravel that could be bought at any landscaping store. a 2 cubic foot bag for around $5 (think thats how much it cost at lowes). and easily more then 50 pounds a bag.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ Right. So why not use a 'dirt' substrate?


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

still need something for drainage


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^Why. What happens in the wild with no LECA or store bought rocks?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

You need some space for the excess water to flow off into. Dirt would turn to mud quickly. Are you trying to lead us somewhere Rich?


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## Anoleo2 (Feb 1, 2006)

I use Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil (fine gravel) because it looks more natural, it provides pretty good drianage, and it's cheaper than LECA. 

...And because I'm too lazy to make a false bottom.


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

My false bottoms don't have much water under them. It saves me like 20 pounds in a 10 gal. My rack system necessitates pulling tanks out a whole lot, so that makes a difference to me.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

Well I for a fact know that some species prefer and come from wet climates, take brents BJs for instance. Also, if gravel were used as a bottom substrate, I really would have no desire to move my larger tanks. I am moving in a year, dont want the added weight and in my tank with a water feature, i can unplug the pump, drain the tank, and my 55 gallon becomes quite light to move, probably barely more than the 80 lbs of glass that it already has in it.

As far as appearance, I always hide mine so never an issue there. I also make sure that there are no ways for froggies to get under. All openings are either covered with substrate or with screen and other things (such as gravel for hiding it.) In fact the last tank I did, the egg crate fits snug with the tree fern panels used for the sides, so no escapees there. I think when you have the issues is when you dont have anal retentive planners such as myself that cover each and every hole you could possible think of.

That and I dont want a soggy substrate, thus, no water in contact with my soil.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> ^Why. What happens in the wild with no LECA or store bought rocks?


last i heard, nature didn't have a glass floor 2 inches (or less) below the ground either . nature has under ground streams and the water table. both of which act as a place for water in the soil to drain to so it doesn't stay a soggy mess.

this isn't something specifically having to do with a viv, its more about plants in general, inadequate or lack of drainage will result in a build up of toxins in the soil caused by normal organics decaying which will eventually cause plant to die. it can also result in the soil staying too wet and eventually killing plant roots due to lack of oxygen.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Peat brick does not 'break down' and does allow for great drainage. All posted before. Fibrous and such. Most of these answers were covered in my previous posts so please read all the way through. Not trying to bust chops at all I just don't like typing thrice.
'Soil' can drain fine for plants, just fine. Removiing a pump is just as easy with soil. Removing water can be just as easy with soil. Forming a pond is as easy with soil as taking your hand and scooping out soil. The hole left in the soil will become a 'pond' as soon as water is added. Falsie and LECA take internal space away from the viv where peat brick adds tannins and homes for bugs. The weight of a false bottom, a LECA, and a 'soil' viv should all be very close. I would guess a ten gal, all things equal would have no more than a four pound difference. Simply don't use rocks if you are weight concerned.
So I so far see no bennifits of LECA or falsies that can't be done better with 'soil'. My choice being peat brick.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

if your talking about using pure peat for a substrate, i guess that would work fine on a small viv. i couldn't image a large viv with larger plants using it though.

and it still doesn't stop toxins from building up in the soil because yes, peat moss does decay over time. whether or not it can drain isn't the issue, there needs to be a place for the water to goto that wont be in constant contact with the roots. ie, not just to the bottom inch of substrate, plant roots might grow down there.

this just goes back to viv size and overall setup playing a part in what is ideal to use.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> if your talking about using pure peat for a substrate, i guess that would work fine on a small viv. i couldn't image a large viv with larger plants using it though.
> 
> and it still doesn't stop toxins from building up in the soil because yes, peat moss does decay over time. whether or not it can drain isn't the issue, there needs to be a place for the water to goto that wont be in constant contact with the roots. ie, not just to the bottom inch of substrate, plant roots might grow down there.
> 
> this just goes back to viv size and overall setup playing a part in what is ideal to use.


Peat brick. Peat brick. Peat brick. Thrice again. This thread not past threads.
Huge vivs (600 gal plus in my experience) LOVE IT!

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

you mean like the expandable coco fibre bricks?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> you mean like the expandable coco fibre bricks?


You may want to Google 'peat brick'. Or contact Josh from Pastor Josh's Frogs. NL viv also.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

did google it, coco fiber peat bricks is what comes up 
hence why i asked.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I came up with the same thing when I googled it. But he means this I think.

http://joshsfrogs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=813


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> did google it, coco fiber peat bricks is what comes up
> hence why i asked.


Almost all of the results say PEAT BRICK, not COCO peat brick. Read and you will find the difference. 

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

From Vivarium Projects website:



> *Landscaping with peat brick*
> The next step is to do the landscaping. To make the land part we suggest to use peat bricks; they can be easily shaped into any shape, provide nutrients for swamp plants and have an antibacterial / fungal function.
> Be aware though that the peat you use is suited for this purpose. You will need soft peat for easily molding; the peat that most garden center carry is unsuitable for this task and will not enhance the look and feel of your vivarium.
> You can order this special peat at Vivaria.
> ...


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> zaroba said:
> 
> 
> > did google it, coco fiber peat bricks is what comes up
> ...


excuse me Rich, but i am reading what i see. but since you obviously don't believe me, try reading the sites in this pic, its what came up when i searched google for 'peat brick':









do you see it? a question about peat bricks at top, then coco peat, then a companies site, then more stuff about coco peat, then a link for fireplace peat, then MORE coco peat. ok? do you believe what i saw now?




mywebbedtoes, thank you for the link.
unfortunately at 12 bucks a brick for a 20" x 5" x 5" brick isn't too cost effective for my viv, i'd need more then 10 of them


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

As long as the frogs are healthy, i dont really see a difference between the 2. Its basically comes down to how you want to construct the tank, the amount of money you have, and how much time you want to spend building the tank. If both methods work and the frogs are happy i dont see a point to arguing which is "better" then the other. Now if you had data to back up proving that one shows better plant growth, healthier frogs, more offspring... i could see a valid point being made, but until then i really dont think there it matters which method you use as long as your frogs are healthy and happy and your viv looks good according to you liking. 

Frogs dont have yearly salaries in the wild, so that they can go and buy the best realistate and have a huge house that makes life easier for them... no they fight for teritory and live where the conditions are suitable for them to thrive. As long as those conditions are met.. the frog will be happy.. i dont think the frog really cares whether its hopping around on top of a false bottom or "dirt". As long as the viv condtions are suitable for it to thrive and its fed.. its a happy frog.

The only real argument i can see from this is that people base their design and setup for the tank based on how much matinence and moving around of their tanks they do. I have both false bottom and 'dirt' bottom and it really doesnt make a difference between the two. The plants do fine in both and the dirt seems to be fine...tho on one tank i had an inch of rocks and then coco bedding and the waterline was close to the dirt level and the soil was swampy and smelled bad... 

again i think this is all a matter of preference...

until someone shows some data to back up which one is better

dan


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

It should be pointed out that yet another bennefit of peat brick is that it can be used and placed as bricks OR broken up into finer chucks for beautiful draining and sculpting.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > zaroba said:
> ...


Not being rude at all. There are a bunch of site on the first page to read. I even refered to NL and Josh's. Done. I assume you have the needed info now and can read the pertinent info?
Also do you know how far it goes before saying you can't afford it?

Rich


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

I think everyone has valid claims to why there chosen and perefed method works. I think both methods work great. But again as long as both methods work succesfully for the frogs.... it doesnt matter which method you use...

instead of trying to shoot down how people do what they do... why not explain to people what exactly you do for your tank and the benefits for it and how if they choose your method it could help their vivs


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

DF20 said:


> As long as the frogs are healthy, i dont really see a difference between the 2. Its basically comes down to how you want to construct the tank, the amount of money you have, and how much time you want to spend building the tank. If both methods work and the frogs are happy i dont see a point to arguing which is "better" then the other. Now if you had data to back up proving that one shows better plant growth, healthier frogs, more offspring... i could see a valid point being made, but until then i really dont think there it matters which method you use as long as your frogs are healthy and happy and your viv looks good according to you liking.
> 
> Frogs dont have yearly salaries in the wild, so that they can go and buy the best realistate and have a huge house that makes life easier for them... no they fight for teritory and live where the conditions are suitable for them to thrive. As long as those conditions are met.. the frog will be happy.. i dont think the frog really cares whether its hopping around on top of a false bottom or "dirt". As long as the viv condtions are suitable for it to thrive and its fed.. its a happy frog.
> 
> ...


I think pros and cons have been posted but let me ask this and then go on. How much tannins are in tap water? How much tannins are in LECA?

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Do we not get tannins form coco brick? Rich, your case would be that LECA is not natural, certainly a plastic false bottom is not natural, so there IS more benefit to peat brick because, it drains, maintains, and helps with tannin gains? I can honestly say I was unaware of it before this thread. I am interested now. Although there something to be said for DF20 comments, that as long as it works...


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## DF20 (Jul 7, 2007)

rich- i understand the validity of your position but not all of us spend as much time with frogs as you and i know you have more expierence with them then i do....

but what i think your lacking in expierence is your approach and attitude here....

a plastic surgeon would not go up to a person and say "wow your nose is ugly who punched you in the face?" no his/her approach would be more of a hey i can help you with that, IF YOU would like help for it.

i think if you say what you have to say: 

which would be you prefer peat bricks...show an example of one of your tanks that is using them... point out the benefits of using the method...and leave it at that.. if people take you up on your words of wisdom so be it, if not, let them choose what they want to do... 

im still failing tho to see a huge difference between the 2 methods besides tannins in the water coming from the peat bricks and a place for the buggies to play.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

I love the use of peat bricks in may of the Euro vivs, but it seems very expensive if you plan to cover the whole bottom of the tank.


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

This is almost as intense as the Bear Grylls Vs. Les Stroud thing. 

*grabs popcorn*


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Well, first off LECA and water weigh just about the same. There is not a big enough difference to be notable , in my opinion. In fact I have actually seen LECA float.


I've noted the same thing, however, when you need to move a tank as many of the younger hobbyists have to do as they are in school and subsequently changing residences yearly, the weight of LECA does become significant because it can not be removed from the tank. 



> Water drains through a good natural substrate just as it does LECA and a big old pool of water under my tank does not make any sense to me.


A large pool of water under the tank provides stability to the systems temperature. I doubt that there is published heat capacities for LECA so I'm not going to passionately argue if water has more heat capacity in a liquid state than does LECA, but my gut tells me that water does have a higher heat capacity. 



> Pulling pumps should be a rare occurence and when it happens it really does not seem that much difference in pulling a pump in a falsie or out of substrate. It may be easier in substrate because there is not a true manufactured structure with mass of the whole bottom.


Personal experience says other wise. When you try to move substrate more falls in behind making it a chore to both excavate and restore a pump. Like with all things with moving parts, they will break and solid plans on how to service them when they do break need to be established ahead of time. A false bottom allows a for a completely open area around the pump for free water movement, and for increased accessibility when service is needed. 



> Draining of water out of a tank should be the same with either.


I could see that being a valid argument, it depends on some assumptions, but I'll take it. 



> Trapped frogs in falsies are read of all the time.


I've never read of someone who could actually prove that their frog died under a false bottom. I've seen plenty of panic attacks, but no deaths. 



> LECA look ugly as can be. LECA costs more and does less than 'dirt' . Ditto with the falsies.


I have read of many people saying they prefer the look of LECA over false bottoms. I honestly don't care unless it's a display tank, then I'm going to hide a false bottom with gravel anyway. 



> What tanks need frequent misting?


Define frequent. The frequency of misting should be dependent on the following variables: frog species, tank design, frog room conditions. Because these are not consistent from collection to collection, frequent is going to change. 



> Why would we need large volumes of water?


See above note on heat capacity.



> Peat brick is very fibrous, very loaded with tannins, and very natural looking.


What good does tannins do if it's not accessible to tads? 



> How often do we drain our vivs on average?


My 10gs have only been drained for moving them. My plywood tanks have drains installed. When I had tanks that were regularly drained (these had gravel and LECA bottoms) I was draining them monthly which motivated me to go to my current system.

Like with most things in this hobby, what works for you works for you; what works for me, works for me.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

OK, let me get back on track. I neither belittled anyone for not using peat brick nor , in my thread, attack anyone. 
That being said. I have asked for pros and cons and when someone brings up what they think to be a pro but is not in my mind I will point it out. I don't think we are even close to needing pics yet. My questions have not been answered.
Sorry if I get a tad short at times but when I have answered questions thrice (and this is the third time I bring it up in this thread of mine alone) it can be a tad frustrating. Maybe I'll start using more emoticons to seem friendlier :lol: :lol: :wink: :lol: :lol: . Yup that works.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> Also do you know how far it goes before saying you can't afford it?Rich


don't yet 
how much do the bricks expand when soaked overnight?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

defaced said:


> > Well, first off LECA and water weigh just about the same. There is not a big enough difference to be notable , in my opinion. In fact I have actually seen LECA float.
> 
> 
> I've noted the same thing, however, when you need to move a tank as many of the younger hobbyists have to do as they are in school and subsequently changing residences yearly, the weight of LECA does become significant because it can not be removed from the tank.
> ...


A large pool of water under the tank provides stability to the systems temperature. I doubt that there is published heat capacities for LECA so I'm not going to passionately argue if water has more heat capacity in a liquid state than does LECA, but my gut tells me that water does have a higher heat capacity. 



> Pulling pumps should be a rare occurence and when it happens it really does not seem that much difference in pulling a pump in a falsie or out of substrate. It may be easier in substrate because there is not a true manufactured structure with mass of the whole bottom.


Personal experience says other wise. When you try to move substrate more falls in behind making it a chore to both excavate and restore a pump. Like with all things with moving parts, they will break and solid plans on how to service them when they do break need to be established ahead of time. A false bottom allows a for a completely open area around the pump for free water movement, and for increased accessibility when service is needed. 



> Draining of water out of a tank should be the same with either.


I could see that being a valid argument, it depends on some assumptions, but I'll take it. 



> Trapped frogs in falsies are read of all the time.


I've never read of someone who could actually prove that their frog died under a false bottom. I've seen plenty of panic attacks, but no deaths. 



> LECA look ugly as can be. LECA costs more and does less than 'dirt' . Ditto with the falsies.


I have read of many people saying they prefer the look of LECA over false bottoms. I honestly don't care unless it's a display tank, then I'm going to hide a false bottom with gravel anyway. 



> What tanks need frequent misting?


Define frequent. The frequency of misting should be dependent on the following variables: frog species, tank design, frog room conditions. Because these are not consistent from collection to collection, frequent is going to change. 



> Why would we need large volumes of water?


See above note on heat capacity.



> Peat brick is very fibrous, very loaded with tannins, and very natural looking.


What good does tannins do if it's not accessible to tads? 



> How often do we drain our vivs on average?


My 10gs have only been drained for moving them. My plywood tanks have drains installed. When I had tanks that were regularly drained (these had gravel and LECA bottoms) I was draining them monthly which motivated me to go to my current system.

Like with most things in this hobby, what works for you works for you; what works for me, works for me.[/quote:3ijvn23u]

First off Mike , I would like to thank you for the time and effort you took to answer questions and comment on statements
Second, I NEED somebody to explain how to quote as you did so I can answer part-by- part instead of in bulk     Love those Emotis!

Good point on the student moving thing. New to me . Bravo!
I don't want a stable temp environment. Nice 10-15 degree swings are great.
Let's call it a tie on ease of playing with that un-needed pump :wink: :wink: 
I have read of dead frogs under falsies. I can't cite them on paper though.
Anybody prefer the look of falsies or LECA over a natural look?
You will have to refer to my 'amount of draining I do per three months' to see what I am saying about not frequently misting. I don't drain often at all.
Peat brick has many qualities , antifungal, bacterial, and such that help out the general health of the viv.
I know that what works for some does not work for others. But there are reasons for this. that is why I started the thread. The laws of physics don't change viv to viv and person to person.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Also do you know how far it goes before saying you can't afford it?Rich
> ...


The bricks don't so much expand with the water, although they do some, as much as when you break them apart (as you would when building most vivs) it 'falls apart' one brick goes a long way.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

ahh. hmm...how many bricks would be needed for 6 cubic feet of substrate?

would need roughly 6 cubic feet of substrate for my big viv (currently has a mix of pine bark, milled spagnum, and organic topsoil).

one unbroken up brick is .3 cubic feet, so i'm guessing would still need 15+ bricks even after fluffing it up.
at $11.99 per, thats easily over $200 including shipping costs. easily way too much for me since i'm unemployed (a lot of layoffs at work last november) and living off unemployment pay currently


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> Second, I NEED somebody to explain how to quote as you did so I can answer part-by- part instead of in bulk     Love those Emotis!


You have to manually instert the little formula where you want to quote



> insert what you want to quote here


 It gets annoying to break it all up like Mike did because it takes a long time, but there is no easy way to do it. Does that makes sense?

That being said, I am all for more natural. The more organic the better I think. Thanks for bringing this up Rich, it's interesting.


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

I actually _REALLY_ like the look of an eggcrate false bottom. I cant explain why, they're just really alluring to me. I especially love when theyre used as "skeletons" for vivs. I think it's just the fun of making something alive & natural out of a man-made material. I just like working with eggcrate :lol:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Rich, 
No problem on answering the questions. 

I don't often use pumps in my tanks, and I don't think they're needed per se, but from experience I've drawn the conclusion that false bottoms are easier to work with when regarding pumps. 

Here's how I do quotes like that:
-Copy the whole post I'm interested in dissecting into a new new post
-Highlight the part I'm interested in quoting, say the first two lines.
-Click the quote button under the Subject field in the new post.
-The quote tags will be added to either side of what I want to quote. 
-Repeat as needed

The reason for the temp thing is more of a security measure. I've not done any testing to verify, but it makes sense to me. The idea is that if the room temp becomes uncontrolled (heater or AC dies) there is more water mass in the tank that needs to change temp, thus providing stability to the tank. In theory it sounds good, but I'm not setup where I'm living to do that kind of testing. 



> The laws of physics don't change viv to viv and person to person.


Absolutely correct, however, the input variables to those laws do change which is why there are variances across the hobby.

Sorry for the engineering speak/sentence structure. I've been writing/talking to them far too much lately. CYA is the name of the game ya know?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > Second, I NEED somebody to explain how to quote as you did so I can answer part-by- part instead of in bulk     Love those Emotis!
> ...


Thanks, that's what I thought I would have to do.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

defaced said:


> Rich,
> Here's how I do quotes like that:
> -Copy the whole post I'm interested in dissecting into a new new post
> -Highlight the part I'm interested in quoting, say the first two lines.
> ...


Wow, I was doing that the stupid way, thanks Mike!


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Sorry Rich, I told you a really dumb way to do it...follow Mike's instructions.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

It's *really* handy when you need to do pictures or format text.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

defaced said:


> Rich,
> 
> 
> Here's how I do quotes like that:
> ...


Thanks again. Better than all the extra work.

If a heat issue (AC out) or cold issue (heat out) happens, the small amount of time it will hold its temp does not , in my mind, equal the benefit of having the day/night swings. Which happen to be VERY important for breeding in my experience.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> ahh. hmm...how many bricks would be needed for 6 cubic feet of substrate?
> 
> would need roughly 6 cubic feet of substrate for my big viv (currently has a mix of pine bark, milled spagnum, and organic topsoil).
> 
> ...


What size viv is 6 cubic feet going into?
I would say it fluffs to at least double so you would need 10 bricks or less. Not cheap. Kind of like the rest of this hobby  . You can go in on bulk shipments also. But this is not a 'rip your viv apart if you are not using peat brick' thread. if you are happy. Good deal. 

Rich


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Which happen to be VERY important for breeding in my experience.


Digress? I'm interested in hearing more about this. I think it's one of the many things on this board we don't look at often, the day/night temperature effect.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

defaced said:


> > Which happen to be VERY important for breeding in my experience.
> 
> 
> Digress? I'm interested in hearing more about this. I think it's one of the many things on this board we don't look at often, the day/night temperature effect.


With frogs that come from areas of night/day temp swings of more than a few degrees it is important to replicate these swings. To cycle them down for a healthy break don't allow temps to swing. 50% of my collection was totally cycled (zero breeding) down for all of last year's hot months. They are all (100%) back up now.

Rich


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I think that there are many issues that need to be considered when people think about substrates for vivariums, as well as a whole spectrum of choices available. One important question is just what does the person building the vivarium want out of the substrate? There are things to consider like drainage, suitability for plant life, ability to maintain a proper environment for the frogs, ease of initial construction, ease of maintenance, cost, availability of parts, weight, etc...

All of the available construction methods will fall differently on the spectrum when you consider these issues. For one example, my 10g tinc tanks have a pile o' dirt over gravel, hardly the most elaborate of substrates, but it fit my needs at the time (cheap and easy, provides at least some drainage). My small cubes have LECA, then coco-fiber and leaf litter on top of that, more drainage, more cost, more soil-critters, but still not too elaborate. My 55 under construction (permanently, it seems) has a more elaborate styrofoam base, with multiple levels, a molded stream bed, and a small water feature - designed to be lined with gravel. It's much more lightweight than a similar construction would be with peat bricks, but a lot of work.

Another thing with peat bricks is that for quite some time (a few years), they were extremely difficult to find in the US, with few distributors and those few distributors frequently out of stock.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> What size viv is 6 cubic feet going into?
> I would say it fluffs to at least double so you would need 10 bricks or less. Not cheap. Kind of like the rest of this hobby  . You can go in on bulk shipments also. But this is not a 'rip your viv apart if you are not using peat brick' thread. if you are happy. Good deal.


its a 360 gal viv that i built...maybe 2 years ago now. i'm a huge procrastinator though so its STILL not 100% completed . i'm redoing the stream system a 3rd and hopefully final time (kept finding leaks) and finally have plans for a good background.

its 6ft long by 2ft wide and the substrate is around 5" deep, plus theres somewhat of a mountain thats 1ft x 1ft x 4ft along the back of it. its mostly hollow and filled with caves but easily contains another cubic foot or more of substrate. total amount is around 6 cubic feet.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I will never use LECA for most of the reasons rich outlined.. weight does not help me any and I don't like that it floats. I don't even consider LECA to be a false-bottom.. just a well draining layer in the substrate. An unnecessary one at that, but it's all personal preference.

The main reason I use an eggcrate false-bottom is that it allows me to separate the substrate layer from the bottom water accumulation so that it does not become water logged, or wick water to the top layer of soil (which is what would happen through contact of the top layer of the soil and the bottom water logged area).

Unless the top layer of my substrate is incredibly well draining (which it could be in some cases, but depends on what I would like to accomplish in the tank), the fact that it is in contact with the bottom will allow the water at the bottom to wick to the rest of the substrate.

I tried to read this thread carefully but I may have missed some things so I apologize if this has already been addressed but that is my 'pro' to an eggcrate false-bottom.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

It seems there is an added benefit of peat brick when it comes to water features. The problem with most water features I see is the lack of a natural look. This is because the soil (most cases coco fiber) need to be held back from collapsing into the water, and this usually requires sharp edges (rock, wood, silicone walls), a retaining wall basically. A false bottom can be used, but again, similar problem. From what I have see, peat brick can be used as the barrier and shaped accordingly as it will not crumble in on it's self. This is seen in the design of the tanks on Vivaria Projects. http://www.vivaria.nl/photogallery/photovivarium/photovivariumc06.html 
This looks much more natural than trying to build retaining walls of stones and sticks and what not, not to say there is anything wrong with that. But, I can see a huge "design" benefit to peat brick if your goal is natural design. The big con is see is the price. I would probably only consider it for a display tank where I would want a water area. Other than that I do think my drainage layer seperated from my soil mix is fine for my purposes.


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

I'm first backing up to what peat brick is.
Here is a product from Ireland called peat brick designed for burning:

http://store.addedtouch.us/2075.html

Would this type of peat brick work as well? 

----

I am still a novice at vivs and don't have any frogs yet, but I have been reading and researching voraciously for the past 6 months.
Two of the most fascinating threads I've read where it comes to construction and substrates have been the Ultimate Clay Based Substrate thread and Ben's "composterium." Both of these discussions had a lot of concrete observations and discussion on the process that led the creators to endorse what they were doing. 

This discussion doesn't have that type of objective substantiation I crave, and so far I haven't been convinced on why peat brick would be superior to many other setups. 
Not unlike LECA and eggcrate, peat brick is not found in the tropical rainforest.
It does release a lot of tannins, but so do decomposing leaves and other organic substrates. Can you explain why peat tannins are superior for either the health of the plants or frogs?
You state "great drainage. Fiberous." So, to be clear here, you are saying it is SUPERIOR in drainage to coco fiber and bark, leaflitter humus, or granular clay? And you are saying it is better than LECA or a FB, obviating the need for these? 
You state that it is not biodegradable (or doesn't break down.) This is essentially true in the temperate moors where it develops over millennia. I'm skeptical that it would last that long in a tropical setting. You could help me here by letting us know how long you have been using it, and what changes (or lack of change) you have noticed.
Pictures would help me here. 


> I don't think we are even close to needing pics yet. My questions have not been answered.


Or haven't your questions been answered yet? :wink:


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## Smashtoad (Apr 27, 2007)

I don't carry my vivs around a lot...so weight wasn't a big consideration for me, and aquarium pumps run for years, as long as they don't run dry, so super easy access to the pump was also not a major consideration.

The plants I wanted most were epiphytic or would grow in long fiber sphagnum and wet footed in gravel. and the last thing I wanted to do was spend a ton of time designing some siliconed rock water fall that looked like crap or leaked when in operation. Trying to define the flow of water can be very frustrating.

I have pea gravel, sphagnum, a buried pump and that it is. So far all the plants look great, and I was able to play with the water fall until the flow looked attractive and did not splash the glass.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

tzen said:


> I'm first backing up to what peat brick is.
> Here is a product from Ireland called peat brick designed for burning:
> 
> http://store.addedtouch.us/2075.html
> ...


That is peat brick but I do not know what prossess has been used to mine that particular brick so i can not endorse the buying of it. That is why I referred people to NL vivs or Pastor Josh. I know those bricks are 'clean' :wink: 

----



tzen said:


> I am still a novice at vivs and don't have any frogs yet, but I have been reading and researching voraciously for the past 6 months.
> Two of the most fascinating threads I've read where it comes to construction and substrates have been the Ultimate Clay Based Substrate thread and Ben's "composterium." Both of these discussions had a lot of concrete observations and discussion on the process that led the creators to endorse what they were doing.


That sounds like my thread's intent was to endorse instead of actually coming up with some advantages of falsies......an assumption. 



tzen said:


> This discussion doesn't have that type of objective substantiation I crave, and so far I haven't been convinced on why peat brick would be superior to many other setups.
> Not unlike LECA and eggcrate, peat brick is not found in the tropical rainforest.
> It does release a lot of tannins, but so do decomposing leaves and other organic substrates. Can you explain why peat tannins are superior for either the health of the plants or frogs?


If you can spot the difference between peat brick and soil taken from the rain forrest you are a much better soilologist than I sir. There is a reason the stuff we use in tad tea is called 'black water' that is what happens when you use peat brick and that is what you find in many waters in the jungles of South/Central America. The tiny amount (other than crazy expensive wild almond leaves) of tannins from leaves can not come close to touching the tannins in peat brick. Not even close.






tzen said:


> You state "great drainage. Fiberous." So, to be clear here, you are saying it is SUPERIOR in drainage to coco fiber and bark, leaflitter humus, or granular clay? And you are saying it is better than LECA or a FB, obviating the need for these?


Yes it is superior in drainage because unlike the mix you cite peat brick will pretty much have the same consistency after five years as it did when you put it in viv. And yes, I am saying that for me ,not an exotic plant guy and not needing to move my viv a lot like students (although I can say my 275 mile move last winter went fine with my 150 tanks and mostly peat substrates without being able to drain a falsie) it is WAY better. Maybe even for my frogs, way better. I also never stated that I don't use leaf litter, I do, big time. But leaf litter is not a substrate until it breaks down.




tzen said:


> You state that it is not biodegradable (or doesn't break down.) This is essentially true in the temperate moors where it develops over millennia. I'm skeptical that it would last that long in a tropical setting. You could help me here by letting us know how long you have been using it, and what changes (or lack of change) you have noticed.
> Pictures would help me here.


No skepticism needed. I have used it for five years and know of many , many who have used it longer. It holds together nicely. And BTW another thing not touched on. My vivs , even after five years, still produce nice brown tannin water from that five year old peat.
Pictures will do nothing to show any benefits other than aesthetics. And if you like my vivs you like them whether or not PB is used. Anyone who wants to view a few of my vivs can go to my website @
Fryebrothersfrogs.com
If there are still reasons to post pics I can do that.




> I don't think we are even close to needing pics yet. My questions have not been answered.





tzen said:


> Or haven't your questions been answered yet? :wink:


Many of my questions have been answered but I really would like to see even more personal benefits of falsies posted.

Thanks again for those who explained how to post.

Rich


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Corpus Callosum said:


> The main reason I use an eggcrate false-bottom is that it allows me to separate the substrate layer from the bottom water accumulation so that it does not become water logged, or wick water to the top layer of soil (which is what would happen through contact of the top layer of the soil and the bottom water logged area).
> 
> Unless the top layer of my substrate is incredibly well draining (which it could be in some cases, but depends on what I would like to accomplish in the tank), the fact that it is in contact with the bottom will allow the water at the bottom to wick to the rest of the substrate.


This cannot be overstated. One reason for using false bottoms is that soil eventually blends into the gravel/LECA making a soupy mud, which defeats the purpose. Eggcrate covered with screen keeps everything permanently separate. BTW, n the real jungle, the soil goes down indefinitely.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Corpus Callosum said:
> 
> 
> > The main reason I use an eggcrate false-bottom is that it allows me to separate the substrate layer from the bottom water accumulation so that it does not become water logged, or wick water to the top layer of soil (which is what would happen through contact of the top layer of the soil and the bottom water logged area).
> ...


But not with peat brick.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Rich,

You've given me reason to try another substrate! I'm planning a new 44 gallon viv for an imi group in a few months, will have to give the peat brick a try....

Jason


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

[/quote]One reason for using false bottoms is that soil eventually blends into the gravel/LECA making a soupy mud, which defeats the purpose. [/quote]

[/quote]But not with peat brick.[/quote]

I have almost 12 square feet to cover on the bottom of my viv. How much would it cost to cover with peat brick compared to $30 for an eggcrate screen? I guessing it would be substantially more.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> One reason for using false bottoms is that soil eventually blends into the gravel/LECA making a soupy mud, which defeats the purpose.





> But not with peat brick.


Hey Rich,

Can you talk a bit more about the movement of water in your tanks, and specifically how you remove excess water? Because certainly at some point accumulating water in the tank rises to a point at which excess water needs to be drained off...

I use false bottoms because my tanks are not drilled, and I have a small, concealed, vertical pipe in all my tanks from which I siphon off water when the level rises too high. My impression is that if I did not have a false bottom, but rather just soil all the way down, then it would be essentially impossible to siphon off water as it accumulates in a tank. 

I also use mostly mineral-based, high-clay soils which I think are a superior substrate (but let's not get into this here, there are plenty of other threads on soil...), but I have not tried peat bricks, which do sound intriguing.

I also appreciate the horticultural aspects of my vivaria, and I think plants to better when a substrate is not uniformly moist. False bottoms seem to facilitate this for me.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Given pet bricks ability to absorb water, does it not simply absorb as much as possible and stay thoroughly soggy? Would this not make it a difficult substrate to plant certain plants in? Or do the top layers stay fairly dry like other well drained substrates?


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Given pet bricks ability to absorb water, does it not simply absorb as much as possible and stay thoroughly soggy? Would this not make it a difficult substrate to plant certain plants in? Or do the top layers stay fairly dry like other well drained substrates?


I was wondering the same thing. Would the moisture wick back up to the soil?


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

Hey Rich, this is actually very interesting. I'd like to give this peat brick stuff a try in a ten gallon or something.

But I'm wondering why I should use it on a larger scale when I could just do the false bottom thing & get some indian almond leaves, which works just as well, for considerably cheaper? Is there more to it than tannins and drainage? (I just started reading this thread again since about 11:00 last night, sorry if I'm missing something)


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

One reason for using false bottoms is that soil eventually blends into the gravel/LECA making a soupy mud, which defeats the purpose. [/quote]

[/quote]But not with peat brick.[/quote]

I have almost 12 square feet to cover on the bottom of my viv. How much would it cost to cover with peat brick compared to $30 for an eggcrate screen? I guessing it would be substantially more.[/quote]





Please see the above posts in this thread for an equation.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

npaull said:


> > One reason for using false bottoms is that soil eventually blends into the gravel/LECA making a soupy mud, which defeats the purpose.
> 
> 
> [quote:385nseo4]But not with peat brick.


Hey Rich,

Can you talk a bit more about the movement of water in your tanks, and specifically how you remove excess water? Because certainly at some point accumulating water in the tank rises to a point at which excess water needs to be drained off...[/quote:385nseo4]

Read the statements on number of vivs and frequency of drain offs. I don't find the need to spray the bejebus out of vivs.



npaull said:


> I use false bottoms because my tanks are not drilled, and I have a small, concealed, vertical pipe in all my tanks from which I siphon off water when the level rises too high. My impression is that if I did not have a false bottom, but rather just soil all the way down, then it would be essentially impossible to siphon off water as it accumulates in a tank.


Again, fibrous and easy to drain. A pipe down to the bottom will allow the same for falsies or fibrous PB.



npaull said:


> I also use mostly mineral-based, high-clay soils which I think are a superior substrate (but let's not get into this here, there are plenty of other threads on soil...), but I have not tried peat bricks, which do sound intriguing.


Maybe mix some in as a partial formula.




npaull said:


> I also appreciate the horticultural aspects of my vivaria, and I think plants to better when a substrate is not uniformly moist. False bottoms seem to facilitate this for me.



The amount of water creeping up to the highest level of substrate simply depends on how you lay out the viv. I have several vivs where my top most PB area is bone dry.
And again, not an exotic plant guy. Check out my website and you will see than I use a decent number of plants. All do well in my vivs with PB.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Given pet bricks ability to absorb water, does it not simply absorb as much as possible and stay thoroughly soggy? Would this not make it a difficult substrate to plant certain plants in? Or do the top layers stay fairly dry like other well drained substrates?


Check my reponse to 'npaull' for this.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Conman3880 said:


> Hey Rich, this is actually very interesting. I'd like to give this peat brick stuff a try in a ten gallon or something.
> 
> But I'm wondering why I should use it on a larger scale when I could just do the false bottom thing & get some indian almond leaves, which works just as well, for considerably cheaper? Is there more to it than tannins and drainage? (I just started reading this thread again since about 11:00 last night, sorry if I'm missing something)


It by no means needs to be used on a large scale with zero other substrate . If you want to hybridize some sort of supe falsie with PB also you will get the best of both 'pros' I guess.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

^ Thanks. I have admired your site for a few years. You do support a pretty diverse grouping of plants on your floors. I do my expensive planting on the background anyways (orchids). I could see a PB bottom, including a water section working nicley if some thoughtout design were used, for example lower and higher ground.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I think people should keep in mind the intent of this thread as well. It was not to call one meathod superior to the others, but simply inquire what advantages others saw with False Bottoms. Really the goal should be to combine new thoughts with what you already know. For instance, I could see combinations of PB and other bottoms working together to simply give the builder more options.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ Yes, yes . Thanks you.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> Read the statements on number of vivs and frequency of drain offs. I don't find the need to spray the bejebus out of vivs.


Hey Rich,

Thanks, I did read those statements before posting but I'm still a little unclear. Does most of the water you do spray into tanks simply evaporate out, then? I'm just trying to understand *how* you get rid of water, even though it's clear that you don't remove it often.

How do you accomplish adequate water outflow while still maintaining enough water inflow to keep your humidity up?

Thanks.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

npaull said:


> > Read the statements on number of vivs and frequency of drain offs. I don't find the need to spray the bejebus out of vivs.
> 
> 
> Hey Rich,
> ...


Most does evaporate I would say. Remeber plants also use water.
I am not sure what you mean by water 'outflow' or 'inflow'. Humidity is the easiest thing to bring up above the 70%+ RH needed. Put water in an enclosed , waterproof structure and just try to keep humdity down.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I think some just mist their tanks excessivly so they are going to have more water to deal with. I hand mist and really do not get much water build up, but my plants are healthy as are my frogs. I have read a few times where people have misters set to come on 3 or 5 times a day for 30 seconds or more each, that seems like a lot of water.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> I think some just mist their tanks excessivly so they are going to have more water to deal with. I hand mist and really do not get much water build up, but my plants are healthy as are my frogs. I have read a few times where people have misters set to come on 3 or 5 times a day for 30 seconds or more each, that seems like a lot of water.


I used to have all my 'automated/plumbed' vivs on timers for misting 10 times a day for 1 minute per blast. :shock: A waste really, in my mind. I have a ton of vivs and hand mist all.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Holy cow :shock: That is another interesting topic, misting amount and frequency.


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

*A comment on this subject from a newbie*

I was reading on the 4th page of this thread about price concerns for using the pete bricks.......A good way to defray some of that cost is to use 1/2 coco and 1/2 pete I think you will find that your tank will still thrive and that you will spend less coin.

This comment only came from research not personal experience yet. Infact reading this thread makes me wonder whether I need to use a falsie just to make a simple drip wall, though I do like free flowing water

Mitch


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

> That is another interesting topic, misting amount and frequency.


I agree, I would be interested in hearing more on this topic.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

*Re: A comment on this subject from a newbie*



Malaki33 said:


> I was reading on the 4th page of this thread about price concerns for using the pete bricks.......A good way to defray some of that cost is to use 1/2 coco and 1/2 pete I think you will find that your tank will still thrive and that you will spend less coin.
> 
> 
> Mitch


True, just remember that a lot of 'brown stuff' like 'coco' will take away from the fibrous draining 'pro' of the PB.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

mydumname said:


> > That is another interesting topic, misting amount and frequency.
> 
> 
> I agree, I would be interested in hearing more on this topic.



Gotta be umpteen threads on this. No?


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

My viv has a false bottom...which I chose because it was cheaper than LECA and I never heard of peat bricks. Also, it is pretty much invisible. You could either fill in the front of it with substrate(gravel, or peat. :wink: ), or as I did used one of those black aquarium backgrounds to hide it. 

Also, peat is not much more natural than a false bottom. In rainforests the soil is mainly clay(I plan on doing some changes in my viv regarding this). I can see a false bottom as representing groundwater to some extent in a viv.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Dendrobait said:


> Also, peat is not much more natural than a false bottom. In rainforests the soil is mainly clay(I plan on doing some changes in my viv regarding this).


Peat (from nature) is NOT more natural than a man made synthetic, petroleum product ? Please. WOW, started a new environmental spin to this :wink: :wink: 
How does the 'Blackwater Extract' get it's name? How is the 'black water' produced in nature?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I will answer one of my own questions here.
Black water is produced from large amounts of decaying plant matter over long periods of time. If your viv water does not look like a strong cup of tea you are possibly missing out. The peat brick is a big chunck of very slowly decaying plant matter that procuces very similar results as in the ponds, streams, and rivers in our dart's homelands. I suppose I could put a layer of fine clay base in my vivs (and may in the future) but my main concerns right now have been expressed concerning PB.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

LOL.

What disadvantages are their to using a nonnatural petroleum product? 

I do agree about the fact that a peat brick provides more surface area for biological activity than a false bottom. But that could be easily changed with the addition of materials under the false bottom. Not sure if this is where you are going.

One big problem with false bottoms is that they make it harder to achieve a natural look particularly with water sections. A lot of false bottom vivs tend to have water areas with very steep sides, sides made with greatstuff/pebbles etc. I think I got a pretty good land water transition in my viv, and a false bottom is definetly a step forward from, say, glass divider type setups.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^ I could start a whole new thread on the multitude of problems with petrolium products :wink: :wink: .


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Haha, so true. But we use dozens of them each day. And peat harvesting is not exactly environmentally friendly either, though I hear the companies are working on ways of harvesting the peat and then allowing the bog ecosystem to recover. If it truly never needs replacing...perhaps the lesser of the two evils?


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

I'm still unsure why you would use this expensive product when the frogs are just as happy with the cheaper methods. Frogs dont know the difference. They're frogs.

If it's for aesthetic reasons, I still dont think it's worth the extra money. Personally, I like aesthetically pleasing vivs... But the small details arent worth insane amounts of money.

Also, I tend to use ponds mostly as tadpole deposition sites. I know tannins help out with tads, but does the water in bromeliad axils have a ton of tannins in it in the wild?

For the record (this is going to sound weird), I totally love the idea of using peat bricks and I DO want to try it, I'm just asking a lot of critical questions to see if it's worth it. :?


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Well there is a con as Dendrobait stated, the environmental impact.

Peat Bogs and Amphibians



> Marc J. Mazerolle - Department of Biology, Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia B3H 4J1, Canada
> 
> Peat bogs of eastern North America are increasingly being mined for peat, which results in the extensive draining of these systems. First, I quantified the effects of peat mining on amphibian species richness and abundance in bog remnants adjacent to mining activity and unmined bogs. I then investigated amphibian occurrence patterns in bog remnants relative to the distance to the mined edge, after accounting for microhabitat and distance to landscape elements. The response of amphibians to peat mining varied across taxa. For instance, amphibian species richness, total amphibian captures (all spp. combined), as well as those of green frogs (Rana clamitans) were greater in unmined bogs than in bog remnants. Wood frogs (Rana sylvatica) were most abundant in unmined bogs in areas far from bog ponds, as well as in unmined bogs in areas near shrub patches. After accounting for microhabitat and landscape variables, American toads (Bufo americanus) in bog remnants were most abundant close to mined edges, whereas the other species did not respond to the proximity of mined edges. Peat mining negatively impacts amphibians occurring in bog remnants. The response of amphibians to peat mining is similar to the one of birds and plants, but differs with small mammals. Maintaining a complex mosaic of bog ponds, shrub and forest patches might help mitigate peat mining effects on amphibian patterns of abundance.


So there is that. Not the petrolium is helpping either.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^
Not sure if these issue are the same in EU, but I imagine they could be, the PB used in my vivs are from Europe.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Conman3880 said:


> I'm still unsure why you would use this expensive product when the frogs are just as happy with the cheaper methods. Frogs dont know the difference. They're frogs.
> 
> If it's for aesthetic reasons, I still dont think it's worth the extra money. Personally, I like aesthetically pleasing vivs... But the small details arent worth insane amounts of money.
> 
> ...


Not going to re-hash right now. But the tannis in the water and, and PB which is my substrate where the frogs and froglets hop around help keep the whole viv healthy, not just tad water. Tad water in broms for pums and the like is helped by the overall healthy condition of the viv and frog.
For instance. A pum hopping around on a substrate that is unhealthy will track this nastiness right up into the brom when feeding it's tads.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I figured it was from Europe, just thought I would throw it out there for the sake of conversation.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

It is a valid and interesting point. And it does last a very long time so as Dendrobait brought up it may be the lesser of two evils depending on how the mining is managed.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

one thing to consider in regards to their natural environments is that rainforest soil is actually very poor quality and in many cases has high clay content. This being said, it is the leaflitter on top that is highly fertile. In most cases, the leaflitter later is only a few inches thick, below that, drainage is relatively poor. In recreating their habitat in a viv, it rally doesn't matter which method is used, the bottom of the viv is generally only a few inches from the flooring. When thinking about soil composition and startification in a viv, keep in mind that a fertile rainforest floor is not the same as a fertile temperate floor.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^When you say fertile are you referring to fertile for plants? If so that has been touched on. I am much more concerned with 'healthy' than 'fertile'.
If you are referring to fertile for bugs and such it should not matter all that much. Leaf litter is the key.


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

I was referring to the overall health of the soil, from plant fertility to drainage capability. If you go more than a few inches below the surface, the soil has poor drainage, and low nutrient value. I brought this up regarding some comments on page two of this thread regarding the unnaturalness of vivs in general. Just throwing in my two cents on the matter, as I'm working on a false bottom myself, and had I read this thread before, I might have reconsidered. Thanks for everyones input by the way!

James


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

I’ve got vivs using all three methods, each has it’s pros and cons. I don’t find any one to be superior to the other.

Some comments on this thread:



Rich Frye said:


> -Well, first off LECA and water weigh just about the same.
> 
> -Water drains through a good natural substrate just as it does LECA
> 
> ...


Maybe we should return to the anecdotal vs. fact thread.





Rich Frye said:


> If you can spot the difference between peat brick and soil taken from the rain forest you are a much better soilologist than I sir.


Really? Have you seen soil in the tropics? I don’t think it takes a “soilologist”, or a “rocket scientist” for that matter, to see the difference between the two.





Rich Frye said:


> But leaf litter is not a substrate until it breaks down.


 ... and neither is peat. Hence, the designation peat, not soil. Decomposition in a peat bog is hindered by acidic, anaerobic and low temperature conditions.





Rich Frye said:


> True, just remember that a lot of 'brown stuff' like 'coco' will take away from the fibrous draining 'pro' of the PB.


In my observation, coco fiber is much more “fibrous” than peat.



Frankly Rich, I fail to see the point of this thread if you are just going to discount/rebut peoples reasoning for using false bottoms or LECA. Obviously, your mind seems to have been made up before you asked the question. If your point was to show that, in your opinion, peat bricks are superior, why not just state that?

My two cents, take it or leave it …


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

> Gotta be umpteen threads on this. No?


More looking for your opinion. Don't recall seeing a post from you besides this thread. Could be wrong, but I don't read every post on here.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

must not read many threads... Rich has posted a BUNCH since his return...


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> I am much more concerned with 'healthy' than 'fertile'.


Someone tell me if this has already been answered, but what would be an example of an unhealthy vivarium substrate?


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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> When you say fertile are you referring to fertile for plants? If so that has been touched on. I am much more concerned with 'healthy' than 'fertile'.
> If you are referring to fertile for bugs and such it should not matter all that much. Leaf litter is the key.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_(soil)

wikipedia isn't the most trustworthy, but this is what I meant by fertile soil

James


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

edwardsatc said:


> I’ve got vivs using all three methods, each has it’s pros and cons. I don’t find any one to be superior to the other.


Well then Donn, please post the pros of falsies as asked for through this thread.





Rich Frye said:


> -Well, first off LECA and water weigh just about the same.
> 
> -Water drains through a good natural substrate just as it does LECA
> 
> ...





edwardsatc said:


> Maybe we should return to the anecdotal vs. fact thread.


We can if you like but if you think any of the quoted statements are in error please point them out here.





Rich Frye said:


> If you can spot the difference between peat brick and soil taken from the rain forest you are a much better soilologist than I sir.





edwardsatc said:


> Really? Have you seen soil in the tropics? I don’t think it takes a “soilologist”, or a “rocket scientist” for that matter, to see the difference between the two.


Are you saying that if I put together a viv( we were referring to aesthetic in the above quote) with 'soil' I find in 'the tropics' and a viv using finely crumbled peat brick you will be able to tell the difference by looking at it. If so I am more than willing to make a very interesting bet with you.....





Rich Frye said:


> But leaf litter is not a substrate until it breaks down.





edwardsatc said:


> ... and neither is peat. Hence, the designation peat, not soil. Decomposition in a peat bog is hindered by acidic, anaerobic and low temperature conditions.


Just plain wrong. Substrate is simple an underlying layer. Leaf litter is on top, peat brick under.Very simple.





Rich Frye said:


> True, just remember that a lot of 'brown stuff' like 'coco' will take away from the fibrous draining 'pro' of the PB.





edwardsatc said:


> In my observation, coco fiber is much more “fibrous” than peat.


Peat or peat brick? And it holds up as long as peat brick? Please send me a reference to what type of coco fiber you are using.





edwardsatc said:


> Frankly Rich, I fail to see the point of this thread if you are just going to discount/rebut peoples reasoning for using false bottoms or LECA. Obviously, your mind seems to have been made up before you asked the question. If your point was to show that, in your opinion, peat bricks are superior, why not just state that?


Actually I think most have seen the point but going over pros and cons was the point as stated for the ....lost count exactly how many times. 
I have stated that for me it works better. I am still willing to listen to others who have ideas and pros I have not thought of. And thank them.
A debate one way or the other is such a bad thing? Not judging by the interest.
I will also say that I have LECA, rock, pebbles, what some may consider a true falsie and the like. I have run through the gambit also.

My two pesos...


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Conman3880 said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > I am much more concerned with 'healthy' than 'fertile'.
> ...


Instead of defining 'unhealthy' I would call a 'healthy substrate' one that actually contribute to the health of the frogs by it's antifungal or anibacterial properties.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

mydumname said:


> > Gotta be umpteen threads on this. No?
> 
> 
> More looking for your opinion. Don't recall seeing a post from you besides this thread. Could be wrong, but I don't read every post on here.


If you would like to start a misting thread I would be more than willing to contribute, but my fingers are getting cramped with this and the 'read before you type' thread :wink: :wink:


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

xm41907 said:


> Rich Frye said:
> 
> 
> > When you say fertile are you referring to fertile for plants? If so that has been touched on. I am much more concerned with 'healthy' than 'fertile'.
> ...


Gotcha. I agree .This goes back to me using simple plants that are hard to kill. 
I watched a very interesting show about a year ago about the 'living/growing soil' the Amazon River natives (before the wipeout by the Europeans, vast, vast populations) created to overcome the troubles with soil fertility and crops. Very, very, cool stuff. I will try to look up the pertinent info. Amazing stuff considering the 'living soil' was started/created over 600 years ago and still 'grows'.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

> If you would like to start a misting thread I would be more than willing to contribute, but my fingers are getting cramped with this and the 'read before you type' thread


I can imagine.



> must not read many threads... Rich has posted a BUNCH since his return...


Yeah, I have plenty of other things going on.


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## Jens (Feb 16, 2007)

Very interesting discussion about the bottom layer for viv's. The health properties are a very strong argument for peat bricks. I'm a newbie and still try to make up my mind about the "best" setup. 

I went to a couple German websites and discovered that it is the recommended way over there for the bottom (and sides). Lots of people did use the peat bricks you would use for fire place (the Irish peat bricks, I assume). 12 kg (around the 27 lbs equal) sells for around 3.5 euros + s&h (around 11 euros all together)  

Are there any other resources in the US for those peat bricks? 

Rich, those peat brick are supposed to be very hard, electric saws are a given with the peat bricks for fire places. What are your experiences ? Are Josh's bricks different in this regard? How did you work with it in your viv's?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

> must not read many threads... Rich has posted a BUNCH since his return...


None about the misting subject that was slightly touched on in this thread, so not sure what your point was.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Jens said:


> Are there any other resources in the US for those peat bricks?
> 
> Rich, those peat brick are supposed to be very hard, electric saws are a given with the peat bricks for fire places. What are your experiences ? Are Josh's bricks different in this regard? How did you work with it in your viv's?


I am sure there are other places to get the peat brick here but you will have to do some digging. They seem to be getting harder to find .
After you soak the bricks overnight they do not need to be sawed.
Are you asking how I used it as burms or barriers and such? It crumbles if you want a finer substrate.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

From what I've read (from Matthew Mirabello - otherwise known as Dr. Dirt), tropical soils are more clay based. Brent Brock has vivs with nothing but common clay cat litter (not the fancy scoop types, just plain clay cat litter) that approximate tropical environments very well. The roots of plants grow across the soil as often as they grow in the soil - this is much like you will find in tropical areas I am told.

While Peat Bricks make a wonderful substrate (and I've used them), they are not tropical based. They are also non-renewable, which is one of the reasons they're getting harder to find (and likely more expensive).

I have not read the full thread - so please forgive me if these points have already been made.

s


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

[/quote]Frankly Rich, I fail to see the point of this thread if you are just going to discount/rebut peoples reasoning for using false bottoms or LECA. Obviously, your mind seems to have been made up before you asked the question. If your point was to show that, in your opinion, peat bricks are superior, why not just state that?[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.


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## Conman3880 (Jul 8, 2007)

I dont think Rich is saying false bottoms are inferior, I think he's just defending his point that peat bricks are more beneficial-- And he's probably right.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Frankly Rich, I fail to see the point of this thread if you are just going to discount/rebut peoples reasoning for using false bottoms or LECA. Obviously, your mind seems to have been made up before you asked the question. If your point was to show that, in your opinion, peat bricks are superior, why not just state that?[/quote]

My thoughts exactly.[/quote]

Then my response to you is exactly the same. Scroll up to the post at the top of this page jdog .


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

One thing I glean from the 'pro falsies' as a PB 'con' is the wicking issues and the fact that the top of the PB will in many cases always be wettish. I feel the need to say once again after eight pages (I am doubting everybody reading this thread is now going through all eight pages :wink: ) that the plants I choose to use in my vivs do fine in very wet, very humid conditions. I do have troubles at times with some of my broms but that is really a placement issue more than the fact that the substrate under leaflitter is damp. If you want to grow plants that are delicate , and I know many do, you can use mixes of falsie, PB, LECA, rock, whatever to attain that goal. A little PB in the viv is better than none in my opinion. As Scott mentioned (been in the hobby MUCH longer than I) many of my plant's roots grow along and on top of the substrate.


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

> I went to a couple German websites and discovered that it is the recommended way over there for the bottom (and sides). Lots of people did use the peat bricks you would use for fire place (the Irish peat bricks, I assume). 12 kg (around the 27 lbs equal) sells for around 3.5 euros + s&h (around 11 euros all together)
> 
> Are there any other resources in the US for those peat bricks?


On the bottom of page 4 of this discussion is a link.

---

Rich, I did look at your pictures at your site. The big tank is especially stunning. Do you have any larger pictures of it?
And as for "asking" the question about pros about false bottoms, I think everything that people like about them is already in here. You have heard the info, and clearly you think all the cons outweigh the benefits. Stop pretending like you are still waiting to hear something new to convince yourself.
I give you a big thank you for your unstated and denied but totally obvious agenda in presenting PB as a real alternative. It could have been done much less antagonistically, but then we wouldn't have had eight pages of discussion, would we? :wink: 


One final reason for using a FB: About 8 months ago now, I saw some vivariums at our local zoo ( here are Devin's pictures of them ) and was really interested. In using the web on how to make vivs, the first good site I found was Black Jungle's. They use gravel on the bottom and GS with silicone. So this was the first way I saw that looked like it would give me great results. 
After waiting a few months and then reading a ton more here, pretty much every viv that I liked and the owner described how it was made was made the same way. (Except a couple with fake rocks-- awesome, but I'm not ready for that yet.)
So I guess I used a FB, and GS, silicone + coco fiber because it seemed the best way to do things, and because the first credible authority said it was the way to go. And because others had great results with it and endorsed it.

But now for my future projects, I will now have an alternative to try.
Along with an internal composting compartment. And clay soil.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

As Tyler said, every approach has its uses.

I haven't been to Rich's site in quite awhile, but as I recall, many of his tank are larger hex tanks. Using Peat Bricks to make "islands" in a hex tank would work very well.

In a 10g tank - I think Peat Brick is likely not the way to go. Ditto "cubes". 

s


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

tzen said:


> > I went to a couple German websites and discovered that it is the recommended way over there for the bottom (and sides). Lots of people did use the peat bricks you would use for fire place (the Irish peat bricks, I assume). 12 kg (around the 27 lbs equal) sells for around 3.5 euros + s&h (around 11 euros all together)
> >
> > Are there any other resources in the US for those peat bricks?
> 
> ...


Thanks. Which big tank? THere are about four 90s and a 600 gal there.




tzev said:


> And as for "asking" the question about pros about false bottoms, I think everything that people like about them is already in here. You have heard the info, and clearly you think all the cons outweigh the benefits. Stop pretending like you are still waiting to hear something new to convince yourself.
> I give you a big thank you for your unstated and denied but totally obvious agenda in presenting PB as a real alternative. It could have been done much less antagonistically, but then we wouldn't have had eight pages of discussion, would we? :wink:


You're welcome, but a bit of assumption there....I would have to guess that there are still a few good reasons floating around out there. I not only post to give info but I actually do read and digest what people post. I did not come out of the womb with dart info  




tzev said:


> One final reason for using a FB: About 8 months ago now, I saw some vivariums at our local zoo ( here are Devin's pictures of them ) and was really interested. In using the web on how to make vivs, the first good site I found was Black Jungle's. They use gravel on the bottom and GS with silicone. So this was the first way I saw that looked like it would give me great results.
> After waiting a few months and then reading a ton more here, pretty much every viv that I liked and the owner described how it was made was made the same way. (Except a couple with fake rocks-- awesome, but I'm not ready for that yet.)
> So I guess I used a FB, and GS, silicone + coco fiber because it seemed the best way to do things, and because the first credible authority said it was the way to go. And because others had great results with it and endorsed it.
> 
> ...


I have used tons of great stuff and silicone with coco as a coating ,in fact here http://www.dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... reat+stuff is a thread on it. It may be the 'big tank' you were referring to.


Probably the coolest zoo enclosures I have ever seen! Thanks for the link.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Scott said:


> As Tyler said, every approach has its uses.
> 
> I haven't been to Rich's site in quite awhile, but as I recall, many of his tank are larger hex tanks. Using Peat Bricks to make "islands" in a hex tank would work very well.
> 
> ...


Only a couple 30 gal hexes, but the deal (benefit) is that you can use them in brick form or chunked (after soaking) all the way down to stuff that easily fits in any viv I have ever seen.


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Rich Frye said:


> One thing I glean from the 'pro falsies' as a PB 'con' is the wicking issues and the fact that the top of the PB will in many cases always be wettish. I feel that the plants I choose to use in my vivs do fine in very wet, very humid conditions. I do have troubles at times with some of my broms but that is really a placement issue more than the fact that the substrate under leaflitter is damp. If you want to grow plants that are delicate , and I know many do, you can use mixes of falsie, PB, LECA, rock, whatever to attain that goal. A little PB in the viv is better than none in my opinion. As Scott mentioned (been in the hobby MUCH longer than I) many of my plant's roots grow along and on top of the substrate.


This is a good point that I haven't seen mentioned yet...it depends a lot on what you have growing in there. I know less about viv's than I do about plants and one thing I've learned is that very very few plants like to have their feet kept wet. The majority need good drainage.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I don't know why I care. Some seem to think that Rich just started this thread to pump up Peat Bricks and tear down the others. I really think the point was to encourage others to explore WHY they felt a false bottom was the way to go. I think Rich talked about PB so much because if you go back you will notice many (self inculded) asked or commented on PB specifically, so Rich responded to that. Correct me if I am wrong Rich. If noone asked about PB it probably would not have been dominated by that topic, but a lot of us asked and commented on. (I thought it was very interesting)

As far as the point of this thread, it was to encourage people to stick up for why THEY prefer a false bottom. Again, I don't know why I care.



Rich Frye said:


> You're welcome, but a bit of assumption there....I would have to guess that there are still a few good reasons floating around out there. I not only post to give info but I actually do read and digest what people post. I did not come out of the womb with dart info


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

As stated, I use (right now, still) all of the methods (and tons of substrates, not substrate) posted so, no, ripping was not the goal.
It's kind of interesting how some people do look at a debate as something negative.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Perhaps this was dead, but just a thought I wanted to add. This is from another interesting thread, http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35642&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 Euro vs. American Vivarium Construction.

*barbar0* (who is from Switzerland) had this comment concerning the use of a sloped bottom in a vivarium.



> About that sloping bottom: I'm very new to darts, but I think it is very practical so far - though not a necessity. You dont have to build a false bottom or need a real drainage layer. *I was amazed when i got to this forum a few weeks ago to see how much effort you put in building those false bottoms with eggcrate in the US - i've never seen anything like that before - and it looks very complicated to me... *


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Perhaps this was dead, but just a thought I wanted to add. This is from another interesting thread, http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35642&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 Euro vs. American Vivarium Construction.
> 
> *barbar0* (who is from Switzerland) had this comment concerning the use of a sloped bottom in a vivarium.
> 
> ...


Ahhh....got me. My second ID is 'barbarO' :lol: .


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

*He is right!*

I am writing this point regarding Barb) (from Switzerlands point) that he has never seen Falsies like that before and that it seems complicated. Considering I am a Psych major in my international psychology course I learned that as far as hobbies and even in the work place Most americans are much more fonatical on how and why we do things, we take everything to extremes to prove to ourselves and to others that we are superior. The European philosophy is much more laid back. ( I am of course speaking in summary of the class here), I myself believe in working smart not hard, but being new to the hobby I am starting with a falsie a layer of LECA and a layer of gravel. I am using a coco, pete and moss Substrate with magnolia leaf litter (incase you all havent read my cost journal) then I am going to plant it and see what happens. Then My next tank I am going to try it the way Rich speaks of and plant the exact same plants and see what happens. It is my Hypothesis based on all 9 pages now of this thread of which I have read all nine, that rich's way will thrive just as much as the other ways. the rest of the parameters of the experiment I will post later...but i am now on a mission!

Thanks

Mitch


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

*Re: He is right!*



Malaki33 said:


> I am writing this point regarding Barb) (from Switzerlands point) that he has never seen Falsies like that before and that it seems complicated. Considering I am a Psych major in my international psychology course I learned that as far as hobbies and even in the work place Most americans are much more fonatical on how and why we do things, we take everything to extremes to prove to ourselves and to others that we are superior. The European philosophy is much more laid back. ( I am of course speaking in summary of the class here), I myself believe in working smart not hard, but being new to the hobby I am starting with a falsie a layer of LECA and a layer of gravel. I am using a coco, pete and moss Substrate with magnolia leaf litter (incase you all havent read my cost journal) then I am going to plant it and see what happens. Then My next tank I am going to try it the way Rich speaks of and plant the exact same plants and see what happens. It is my Hypothesis based on all 9 pages now of this thread of which I have read all nine, that rich's way will thrive just as much as the other ways. the rest of the parameters of the experiment I will post later...but i am now on a mission!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Mitch


I hope the experiment is not solely to see how plants fair. But if you choose the plants I work with you should have little trouble with growth in either version.

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Rich, would you consider plant limitations a con to Peat Brick? I know you are not a big tropical plant guy, but non-the-less, for those of us who enjoy a well planted bottom will PB limit that, or does it simply require a little forethought as to how th PB is used?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> Rich, would you consider plant limitations a con to Peat Brick? I know you are not a big tropical plant guy, but non-the-less, for those of us who enjoy a well planted bottom will PB limit that, or does it simply require a little forethought as to how th PB is used?


A strickly PB substrate would be a con for many plants, yes.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I use LECA covered with sphagnum and live mosses. Here is why I use that over Peat Bricks. I believe in lots of air flow in my tanks. I believe air flow is beneficial to the overall health of the tank, plants and animals. I believe air flow keeps fungus, pests and even bacteria in the tank in check. This as compared to a very moist tank with almost no air flow, ie - stagnant. Because I believe in airflow/air-exchange, things tend to dry out faster than a tank with no airflow. Bromeliad cups are of particular concern for obvious reasons. In order to counteract the high airflow, I need to add water frequently through misting. Lots of misting to keep cups filled means accumulation of water at the bottom. LECA provides the drainage that keeps the rest of the tank from getting soggy which would then breed fungus, bacteria, etc. I can easily drain excess water if and when needed through a bulkhead. In addition to temperature swings I like to simulate wet and dry seasons and I accomplish this through closing up the vent and closing the drain or opening both and turning on fans at the vents to really dry things out. These are my reasons and I just don't think I could get the same results (easily) with a soil based substrate.

Although lighter than gravel a 90 gallon tank with 3 inches of LECA is still pretty heavy. The fact that it sometimes floats doesn't bother me.


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## dancjoseph (Nov 8, 2007)

Rich,
I am new to dart frogs, my experience to date has been with FW and SW tanks. I am in the process of starting my first dart frog tank, so I'm not sure if my theory will hold up in practice.

My theory is simply this: by using a false bottom with gravel I can have clean water beacause of the "filter" underneath.

I have built a false bottom with egcrate and fiberglass screen in a 75 gallon tank. Underneath the egg crate, it is filled with gravel. On top of the eggcrate / screen I have a clay based soil covered in leaf litter. In the back right corner of the tank I have a waterfall and stream that flows into a tiny pond in the front right corner of the tank. By having the stream flow in the opposite corner of the tank as the pump, the water is pulled through the gravel back to the pump. This should keep the water filtered.

By using gravel under teh egcrate, and clay based soil on top, there is no way a frog can get trapped underneath the false bottom.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

dancjoseph said:


> Rich,
> I am new to dart frogs, my experience to date has been with FW and SW tanks. I am in the process of starting my first dart frog tank, so I'm not sure if my theory will hold up in practice.
> 
> My theory is simply this: by using a false bottom with gravel I can have clean water beacause of the "filter" underneath.
> ...


Why the concern with 'clean' water and filtering? What are you trying to filter out/

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> I use LECA covered with sphagnum and live mosses. Here is why I use that over Peat Bricks. I believe in lots of air flow in my tanks. I believe air flow is beneficial to the overall health of the tank, plants and animals. I believe air flow keeps fungus, pests and even bacteria in the tank in check. This as compared to a very moist tank with almost no air flow, ie - stagnant. Because I believe in airflow/air-exchange, things tend to dry out faster than a tank with no airflow. Bromeliad cups are of particular concern for obvious reasons. In order to counteract the high airflow, I need to add water frequently through misting. Lots of misting to keep cups filled means accumulation of water at the bottom. LECA provides the drainage that keeps the rest of the tank from getting soggy which would then breed fungus, bacteria, etc. I can easily drain excess water if and when needed through a bulkhead. In addition to temperature swings I like to simulate wet and dry seasons and I accomplish this through closing up the vent and closing the drain or opening both and turning on fans at the vents to really dry things out. These are my reasons and I just don't think I could get the same results (easily) with a soil based substrate.
> 
> Although lighter than gravel a 90 gallon tank with 3 inches of LECA is still


I need to set up an experiment soon showing the effects of thermals in a tank. Many people think that air in a tank with little or no ventilation or mechanical means of blowing air around is 'stagnant'. And this is just not true. My ideal tank is one with many micro-climates , thermals helping out with this.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Everyone has seen a lava lamp? The same principle applies. Add light and therefore heat and you automatically get movement. Natural movement.
Same thing with thermals.

Rich


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## Swanwillow (Feb 27, 2007)

okay, so call me.. misunderstanding of something, and yes, I just read all 9 pages or so. Maybe I missed it, but I doubt it for some reason.

When making ponds and water features with the PB, does the water flow through the substrate out of the pond? Where do you place the water pump in these types of features?

I don't like the false bottom look, and am trying to find something I like and would be useable for me. I think $$ will be the limiting factor, but maybe using a mixture of part of the bottom PB, part leca, I may beable to find the mix I want.


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## dancjoseph (Nov 8, 2007)

Rich,
The waste from the frogs, and any other 'critters' in the tank that leaches into the water would be broken down into nitrates by the bacteria colonizing on the gravel under the false bottom.

It just seems to me that this would make the nutrients more available for the plants to utilize.

Daniel


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Rich,

I'd have to look into this a bit further to be sure, but I suspect that the movement of air via thermals and temperature gradients is very dependant on the size of the viv- another case for 'bigger is better'.  In the smallish enclosures typical of most, we're not going to see the same effects as in larger vivs. More volume, more temperature/humidity gradients, more 'micro climates'. Just a thought.

Jason


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

that largely depends on whether or not the tank itself is being heated though, or if it even needs to be.

once a tank gets big enough (for example my 360), it will pretty much always be the same temp as the room its in. yes, if that room is too cool you could still heat the tank, but unless you spend time and effort actually insulating the tank, the size of the tank being heated will result in the rest of the room being heated as well so the room and tank will pretty much still have the same temp.

if the whole room is the same temp as the tank, then extra heating isn't necessary and you wont get as great temp differences and thus not much in thermals besides those caused by the water feature or smaller shady spots.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Swanwillow said:


> okay, so call me.. misunderstanding of something, and yes, I just read all 9 pages or so. Maybe I missed it, but I doubt it for some reason.
> 
> When making ponds and water features with the PB, does the water flow through the substrate out of the pond? Where do you place the water pump in these types of features?
> 
> I don't like the false bottom look, and am trying to find something I like and would be useable for me. I think $$ will be the limiting factor, but maybe using a mixture of part of the bottom PB, part leca, I may beable to find the mix I want.


Yes , the water is at the water level for the full viv. Anything scooped out below the water level is a pond. A little PB goes a long way. It is not that expensive. You can put the pump where you like. Sometimes I will build a small enclosure around the pump to keep little things from clogging the pump, but not the structures out of egg crate.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

dancjoseph said:


> Rich,
> The waste from the frogs, and any other 'critters' in the tank that leaches into the water would be broken down into nitrates by the bacteria colonizing on the gravel under the false bottom.
> 
> It just seems to me that this would make the nutrients more available for the plants to utilize.
> ...


The plants and bacteria do the job just fine without any filter. The filter is not needed at all. As long as the viv is not WAY over populated.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

flyangler18 said:


> Rich,
> 
> I'd have to look into this a bit further to be sure, but I suspect that the movement of air via thermals and temperature gradients is very dependant on the size of the viv- another case for 'bigger is better'.  In the smallish enclosures typical of most, we're not going to see the same effects as in larger vivs. More volume, more temperature/humidity gradients, more 'micro climates'. Just a thought.
> 
> Jason


It all depends on how the viv is constructed and how much, where , and what kind of light is used. But I do always like as big a viv as possible.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> that largely depends on whether or not the tank itself is being heated though, or if it even needs to be.
> 
> once a tank gets big enough (for example my 360), it will pretty much always be the same temp as the room its in. yes, if that room is too cool you could still heat the tank, but unless you spend time and effort actually insulating the tank, the size of the tank being heated will result in the rest of the room being heated as well so the room and tank will pretty much still have the same temp.
> 
> if the whole room is the same temp as the tank, then extra heating isn't necessary and you wont get as great temp differences and thus not much in thermals besides those caused by the water feature or smaller shady spots.


If your viv has lights it is being heated. When lights go out in any size tank the viv starts to cool . Temp changes cause air movement. Another reason I like big swings in temps. The more temp swing, the more air movement. The temps at the top of a viv will always (baring any crazy outside influence) be hotter as air rises. The difference between the temps at the bottom of a 6' viv and top can be as great as 10 degrees easily.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

ahh, yea, didn't even think of the lights adding heat.

despite the fact that my room stays at 80F all day and night (my pc is an effective space heater  ), the tank is in the lower 70s at the substrate level and almost 90 at the top a few inches below the lights.

did just have the rain system running though, so it probably cooled down the bottom a bit.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

zaroba said:


> ahh, yea, didn't even think of the lights adding heat.
> 
> despite the fact that my room stays at 80F all day and night (my pc is an effective space heater  ), the tank is in the lower 70s at the substrate level and almost 90 at the top a few inches below the lights.
> 
> did just have the rain system running though, so it probably cooled down the bottom a bit.


A perfect example of what I am talking about. A twenty degree difference bottom to top. Now after the lights go out and the temps go down and start to equal out the air moves just as it does when the light go back on and thermals are again created. My guess is that with a 20 degree difference and 6 feet to travel from bottom to top , there is a decent amount of air movement in your viv. Not created by artificial or mechanical means.

Rich


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

only 4ft from top to bottom. actually 3 due to the substrate.
but still...with the ambient temp being 80 in the room, i can't imagine it'll change much. will measure it again tomorrow morning before the lights come on to see how much of a night time difference there is.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

just took the substrate level temp and it was only 70F.
only a 1 or 2 degree difference from mid day to overnight.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

...and the difference @ the top?


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

didn't measure it, but theoretically it would be room temp.


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

I doubt you'll see more than a couple degree's difference.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

jdogfunk99 said:


> I doubt you'll see more than a couple degree's difference.


Are you saying that you doubt there will be more than a couple degrees difference between the top and bottom or between temps when lights are on or off at the top? We already know there is about a 20 degree difference between top and bottom. I am sure there is more than a couple degrees difference at the top from when the lights have been off all night and after having the lights on all day. Something like ten or more I am guessing.


Rich


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Yes, I'm saying I doubt there will be more a couple degrees difference between the top and bottom. We do not "already know there is about a 20 degree difference". That's just ridiculous. When I open my closet door, the temp is about the same from top to bottom; having a light on doesn't increase the range of temp.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

^^^^



zaroba said:


> ahh, yea, didn't even think of the lights adding heat.
> 
> despite the fact that my room stays at 80F all day and night (my pc is an effective space heater  ), the tank is in the lower 70s at the substrate level and almost 90 at the top a few inches below the lights.


As rediculous as you think it may be jdog, it is known. 
Your closet is not a viv.

Rich


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

A car in the sun with all the windows down is not the same thing as a car in the sun with a window or two cracked. A vivarium does not have room air freely moving in and out, heat is bound to be trapped by the top glass and water in the bottom will likley cool during the night and add to the differences. And keep in mind we are talking about tall vivaria, 4' to 6'. In a smaller tank you will not likley have as big a temp swing.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

at the top i would assume it'd just drop to room temp overnight.
as rich said, the moisture in the bottom will keep the bottom cooler.

a computer recorded probe would be nice to just get an idea of the overall temp swings over a weeks time or so.

heh, it'd be nice if i could put some type of thing in there to measure the air drifts to see exactly how the air moves. but that would either be very expensive or very complicated.


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## gm_kevin (Apr 17, 2007)

zaroba said:


> heh, it'd be nice if i could put some type of thing in there to measure the air drifts to see exactly how the air moves. but that would either be very expensive or very complicated.


Or you could hook up an ultrasonic humidifier, when my tank is full of mist you can see the air moving just from my waterfall. Can't measure it per se, but you can see it.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

had one of those. the mist always went no where but down 

the water vapor is heavier then air, so unless the air current is strong enough it wouldn't get pulled up.


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