# Fruit Fly cultures crashing



## cryptokat (Mar 9, 2008)

Hi!!

I have had frogs for about 8 years and most of that time been buying media from Josh's frogs, and making my own cultures, usually no problems... but lately my cultures keep on crashing. Not producing, some of them getting a little moldy. I keep buying new cultures from Josh's every 1-2 months to start over (been going on since about Sept). Using their media, following their instructions to make, sprinkling yeast on top, sometimes with excelsior sometimes with coffee filters. They just keep dying off! I have had this problem occasionally in the past but never this consistently. Any ideas? Should I try a different media? Need something besides yeast to inhibit mold? What is your favorite brand for media and/or starter cultures? Thanks!!


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I had a similar problem a while ago. Turned out to be mites.

I moved my cultures to a different room and keep them on mite paper.

Haven't had any major crashes and my cultures are producing a lot.

Also, another big change I made is to try to not let my cultures become overcrowded. I feed more out and occasionally cull them if there's too many flies.


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

Adding a capful of apple cider vinegar to the water you mix the cultures with should help with the mold. I've been using NE Herp's FF media for a few years now to good effect if you want to try a different source.
I'm assuming you are using Melos given the frogs you list in your profile but you did not specify.


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## Jmule (Jul 25, 2015)

To be honest I am not a fan of Josh's media, I began to have problems with it so I got some from NE herp and my cultures do much better. Also I find Turkish gliders to produce much better than wingless I've gotten from Josh's. NE herp suggests to use yeast (which I think they provide) and vinegar which has been mentioned. Hope this helps!


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## cryptokat (Mar 9, 2008)

thanks everyone, will try moving the cultures to a different spot with mite paper and give neherp a try!


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Most of the time even with mites you will get at least a boom or two so it sounds like a media issue. Always a good idea to keep those cultures away from the area you keep your animals. Making you're own media from scratch will give you the best idea of what works and what doesn't as well, vinegar in cultures imo hinders solid production as well as smelling horrid. 

Hope you get it worked out..


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Yeast doesn't prevent mold.

Most people are using vinegar in their cultures. Are you using vinegar?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

RRRavelo said:


> Adding a capful of apple cider vinegar to the water you mix the cultures with should help with the mold. .


This is an oft repeated suggestion but if you dig into the kinds of molds that typically take over fruit fly cultures you would find that they love acidic food sources and many actually acidify the substrates on which they grow, some down to a pH of 2 (or lower). For example Aspergillus niger is capable of producing pHs low enough to leach metals from ores ...so this is highly unlikely to actually function as a mold inhibitor. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cryptokat said:


> thanks everyone, will try moving the cultures to a different spot with mite paper and give neherp a try!


It may actually have more to do with the genetics of your flies. Depending on when you select the flies to start new cultures you can actually genetically select flies that are intolerant to the conditions of the media. This was very common several years back and was often seen as a massive die off once the first generation emerged from the pupae. It is also true that if the flies are intolerant you would get very poor production from the cultures. Adding flies from a nonselected strain would fix this for a while but if you begin selection you can create the same problem over and over again. 

see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/42419-genetics-ff-culturing.html

Some comments 

Ed


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## k5MOW (Jun 19, 2015)

Someone here mentioned making their own media. Out of curiosity where would someone find a starting recipe for making your own media.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

k5MOW said:


> Someone here mentioned making their own media. Out of curiosity where would someone find a starting recipe for making your own media.


The most common home made medias are all derived from the Carolina Biological Supply Company media and are often called "Carolina mixes". Try searching "Carolina mix". 

With that said these are minimalistic media that can produce a fly that isn't as nutritious as one fed on a more complex media mix. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Ed said:


> This is an oft repeated suggestion but if you dig into the kinds of molds that typically take over fruit fly cultures you would find that they love acidic food sources and many actually acidify the substrates on which they grow, some down to a pH of 2 (or lower). For example Aspergillus niger is capable of producing pHs low enough to leach metals from ores ...so this is highly unlikely to actually function as a mold inhibitor.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


True, but most of the mold inhibitors used in fly media work better at a pH of 5.0 or lower. I don't think Josh lists his ingredients, but if he isn't adding some type of acid, some vinegar, orange or lemon juice could make the inhibitor(s) more efficient.
There is at least one popular fly media supplier that lists the ingredients in his media, it contains at least 3 different mold inhibitors, 3 acids, and carotenoids.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I Just finished off a small bag of Joshs fruit fly media and it worked for me and smelled real nice. It says to make sure to add BOILING water when preparing their media. The boiling water ensures their mold inhibitors are 'activated' or something to that tune. Just wondering if OP used boiling water?

I was also under the impression that the flies carried yeast on them when you seed a new culture? However in your situation might as well use new yeast until things are normal again.

Since you have been ordering new cultures, fly genetics are not your problem. Another thing to check would be the environmental conditions the cultures are in.

Good luck!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> True, but most of the mold inhibitors used in fly media work better at a pH of 5.0 or lower. I don't think Josh lists his ingredients, but if he isn't adding some type of acid, some vinegar, orange or lemon juice could make the inhibitor(s) more efficient.
> There is at least one popular fly media supplier that lists the ingredients in his media, it contains at least 3 different mold inhibitors, 3 acids, and carotenoids.


The problems is that virtually all of the suggestions lack that context and are provided regardless of the media involved or if it even contains mold inhibitors. To blanket suggest that vinegar prevents mold growth isn't correct. 

some comments 

Ed


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

k5MOW said:


> Someone here mentioned making their own media. Out of curiosity where would someone find a starting recipe for making your own media.


Not sure if it's the best, but I've had good luck with mels using nothing but wallyworld potato flakes, powdered sugar, and cinnamon, then sprinkling yeast on top. They start to smell like someone's baking after a week. I make them up so they're more of a sludge to start, then over the next few weeks they start drying out a bit. By the time I get my first boom it's solid enough I can tip it over without the media moving around. I noticed when first started making them that if I left the media not as sludgy it would mold up quicker. Same with not putting in enough cinnamon. I'd have to look for measurements as I just eyeball it when I toss it in the mixing bucket now. I just dust em with repashy and the frogs seem to stay fat and happy.

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vachyner said:


> Not sure if it's the best, but I've had good luck with mels using nothing but wallyworld potato flakes, powdered sugar, and cinnamon, then sprinkling yeast on top.


In short a "carolina style media". 

One of the problems with the basic carolina style medias are that they are lacking in carotenoids which are important to the frogs. 


I highly suspect that people are not adding enough cinnamon to actually act as a mold inhibitor. The primary mold inhibitor in cinnamon is cinnamaldehyde which is found at about 24 mg per 2 gram of cinnamon. Cinnamaldehyde needs to be present in about 150 ppm to effectively inhibit mold. The conversion of ppm to mg is pretty simple. Its equivalent to 150 mg/liter so you would have to add 150 mg of cinnamaldehyde to each liter of mixed media. So you would need @12.5 grams of cinnamon per liter of media or approximately 5 teaspoons. A liter works out to be about 4 cups of media for those who don't want to do the math. When I was making my own meda, that would have been approximately 4 cultures. 

some comments 

Ed


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

Ed said:


> In short a "carolina style media".
> 
> One of the problems with the basic carolina style medias are that they are lacking in carotenoids which are important to the frogs.
> 
> ...


Ed,

Doesn't dusting take care of that deficiency? I thought that the flies didn't actually retain much in the way of nutrients from the media anyway and using something like repashy calcium plus would rectify that? I remember reading a few posts a ways back on the topic of people dumping their old supplements into the media to gut load like crickets, but the consensus was it's not really worth it because the flies just pass everything through. 



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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vachyner said:


> Ed,
> 
> Doesn't dusting take care of that deficiency? I thought that the flies didn't actually retain much in the way of nutrients from the media anyway and using something like repashy calcium plus would rectify that? I remember reading a few posts a ways back on the topic of people dumping their old supplements into the media to gut load like crickets, but the consensus was it's not really worth it because the flies just pass everything through.


The problem with old supplements is that you can't raise the calcium levels in the flies but they have a little need for vitamin A, don't use vitamin D3 (except as a precursor for cholesterol) but store high levels of vitamin E. This can disrupt the ratio of A3:E uptake (via competition in the gut) resulting in deficiencies (as part of the of using supplements in that manner). 

With respect to the carotenoids, the flies will convert some of it to vitamin A in the form of rhodopsin in the eyes but there is a short window of where the carotenoids on the exoskeleton/guts will be available for the frogs. There is good data that carotenoids delivered in this fashion have real value. 

See Dugas, Matthew B., Justin Yeager, and Corinne L. Richards‐Zawacki. "Carotenoid supplementation enhances reproductive success in captive strawberry poison frogs (Oophaga pumilio)." Zoo biology 32.6 (2013): 655-658.

some comments 

Ed


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## austin (Dec 6, 2013)

Something to consider related to mold inhibitors, true most mold inhibitors work best at or below thier pKa, but I don't think they will effectively help prevent mold on parts of the culture such as the excelsior ( I have seen that mold more often than the substrate in cultures). Also something to consider is that some of the commonly used mold inhibitors are very effective at preventing yeast growth as well. I have always been under the assumption that the addition of small amounts of live yeast to the cultures provides a benefit due to the effects of microbial competition that the yeast provide.

Just a few thoughts, for whatever it's worth.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

austin said:


> I have always been under the assumption that the addition of small amounts of live yeast to the cultures provides a benefit due to the effects of microbial competition that the yeast provide.
> 
> Just a few thoughts, for whatever it's worth.


This is from the Carolina Biological Drosophilia culture manual. It seems a reasonable practice but how rooted it is in fact may be up for debate. 

some comments 

Ed


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