# Not a frog but...



## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

So my dad sometimes brings up this experience he had when he was little (in the sixties), about him playing with this venomous and rare snake. My dad said it was white and with a perfect, red diamond pattern down its back, he played with it for hours without knowing it was venomous. Later, after releasing it, my dad went to the library and found a picture of the snake, he hasn't seen anything about it since. We seem to think it was either extremely rare or extinct now. Can someone shed some light on this?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I think your dad got a hold of some shrooms.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

hahaha....ikr. he insists it was real though.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Was this in Virginia? Maybe an albino C. horridus? I seem to remember something about a light color phase of Timbers...not certain though and it wouldn't be diamonds. I'm sticking with the shrooms theory.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Well, its not poisonous, but I would say a corn snake pretty much fits that discription.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are two other possibilities that I can think of offhand but it depends heavily on where he was living when he found the snake. If he was in the Coastal Plains area of Virginia, there is also the possibility of Northern Scarlet Snakes or Coastal Plains Milksnakes... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hmm. It depends heavily where he was located in the state when he found the snake. There are a few other options.. the first two are the scarlet snake and the coastal plains milksnake (if he was in the coastal plains regions of the state). The third is a red phase Eastern Hognose... 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

I forgot to say it was in Massachusetts.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Eastern Milk Snake? the red phase hognose came to mind as well Ed. Neither are venomous.









Northern Water Snake woulld be another option, they can be reaally variable in color and are often mistaken for venomous snakes. Whenever someone says "I saw a cottonmouth" in my area, it's invariably a northern water. 










Actually, now that I think about it, probably not a northern water for the same reason I doubt it was one of the eastern venomous snakes... they are quick to bite.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

tclipse said:


> Actually, now that I think about it, probably not a northern water for the same reason I doubt it was one of the eastern venomous snakes... they are quick to bite.


Haha, I was going to say the same thing when you pointed out the water snakes, aggressive little buggers. Around here, though, I'd have to agree with the milk snake verdict. Although I've never seen one that was white, there sure is a lot of variability, and I have seen ones with nice, red markings.

Pat


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

curlykid said:


> So my dad sometimes brings up this experience he had when he was little (in the sixties), about him playing with this venomous and rare snake. My dad said it was white and with a perfect, red diamond pattern down its back, he played with it for hours without knowing it was venomous. Later, after releasing it, my dad went to the library and found a picture of the snake, he hasn't seen anything about it since. We seem to think it was either extremely rare or extinct now. Can someone shed some light on this?


Was this snake an adult or baby? The color patterns can vary and above all esle can appear much more vivid in young specimens... Also, Hognosed Snakes ARE venomous, they are a rear fang delivery species...

JBear


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> Was this snake an adult or baby? The color patterns can vary and above all esle can appear much more vivd in young specimens... Also, Hognosed Snakes ARE venomous, they are a rear fang delivery species...
> 
> JBear


Is this technically correct? Rear fanged, yes, but it has been a back and forth for many years whether they are actually venomous. I was under the impression they are currently classified as non-venomous. Either way, the toxin on an easter hognose isn't generally dangerous to humans.

Pat


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

the way he describes it, i don't think it was ever identified as a species.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

the snake was about 9 inches long.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

patm said:


> Is this technically correct? Rear fanged, yes, but it has been a back and forth for many years whether they are actually venomous. I was under the impression they are currently classified as non-venomous. Either way, the toxin on an easter hognose isn't generally dangerous to humans.
> 
> Pat


Yeah, they're not classified as venomous. They do have a Duvernoy’s gland, which is what delivers a mild toxin into the snake's saliva, but they don't have the ability to inject anything.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

patm said:


> Is this technically correct? Rear fanged, yes, but it has been a back and forth for many years whether they are actually venomous. I was under the impression they are currently classified as non-venomous. Either way, the toxin on an easter hognose isn't generally dangerous to humans.
> 
> Pat


If you look into the literature there are some significant reponses to bites see this article Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): A case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites If it takes 5 months to recover from the bite, there is a strong case for venom... 

if you want to pm me your e-mail I can send you the pdf of the article. 

Ed


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Ed said:


> If you look into the literature there are some significant reponses to bites see this article Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): A case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites If it takes 5 months to recover from the bite, there is a strong case for venom...
> 
> if you want to pm me your e-mail I can send you the pdf of the article.
> 
> Ed


PM'd you for that article. In all the reading I've done, I don't think I've read of any significant reactions to a hognose bite. I've always been under the impression the toxin in the saliva was like that of the North American garters that were only toxic enough to take down their small prey items.

Pat


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

patm said:


> PM'd you for that article. In all the reading I've done, I don't think I've read of any significant reactions to a hognose bite. I've always been under the impression the toxin in the saliva was like that of the North American garters that were only toxic enough to take down their small prey items.
> 
> Pat


^My understanding as well, I'm not familiar at all with midwestern/western snakes, but I have never heard of anyone showing symptoms from an eastern hognose bite. 

Then again, you could probably do a jig on the things without them biting you, the ones I have handled are VERY docile..... which would explain OP's father not getting bitten, and our current discussion would explain his surprise when he found out it was venomous (albeit marginally). Along with the extreme variability of the species, my vote's going with the hognose on this one.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tclipse said:


> ^My understanding as well, I'm not familiar at all with midwestern/western snakes, but I have never heard of anyone showing symptoms from an eastern hognose bite.
> 
> Then again, you could probably do a jig on the things without them biting you, the ones I have handled are VERY docile..... which would explain OP's father not getting bitten, and our current discussion would explain his surprise when he found out it was venomous (albeit marginally). Along with the extreme variability of the species, my vote's going with the hognose on this one.


There are actually some studies done on Eastern Hognose bites (and cases of envenomation as well)... In the paper I referenced above, there was a recorded bite from an eastern that caused significant symptoms as well as taking four months to resolve. 

There are other cases, while I worked at the Zoo we would periodically have the specialists come and discuss snakebite treatment with us both for how we would deal with onsite envenomations but also so we could advise if we got called for antivenom. One of the specialists had a nice slide show of a bite that occured down in Virginia. 

Ed


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> If you look into the literature there are some significant reponses to bites see this article Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): A case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites If it takes 5 months to recover from the bite, there is a strong case for venom...
> 
> if you want to pm me your e-mail I can send you the pdf of the article.
> 
> Ed


Ed,

The abstract itself states: "Although hognose snakes may uncommonly produce medically significant bites, they should not be considered dangerous or venomous."

Where did the OP run off to? We've gotten considerably sidetracked...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tclipse said:


> Ed,
> 
> The abstract itself states: "Although hognose snakes may uncommonly produce medically significant bites, they should not be considered dangerous or venomous."
> 
> Where did the OP run off to? We've gotten considerably sidetracked...


I don't disagree with it.. I'm just pointing out that they have produced some good bites. The reason that they are not considered dangerous is because you have to let them chew thier way back to thier rear teeth. If you don't let them chew on you then there isn't any risk. There are a number of colubrids that are considered non-dangerous but do contain secretions that in a larger snake would be considered venomous (see for example ScienceDirect - Toxicon : Experimental evidence that oral secretions of northwestern ring-necked snakes (Diadophis punctatus occidentalis) are toxic to their prey). 
As an additional point, it should never be forgotten that some significantly toxic rear fanged snakes were considered non-venomous until they cause a significant bite and death. A classic example is Karl Schmidt's death from a boomslang bite. He took notes on the symptoms up until he died. It's a good read if you can get a copy. 

I don't know where the OP ran off to... but if it was in Maine the only two possibilities that contain red color are the eastern milk (young juvenile) or a red phase Eastern Hognose. I have to admit that I wonder that when he looked up the snake he didn't get a picture of a Eastern or Western Coral snake and made a misidentification. 

Ed


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

im pretty sure it was an eastern milk snake. thanks guys.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm a little late on this, but it could have been a Copperhead. I handled one as a kid without incident as well until a neighbor caught me. Some of them can have quite vivid colors and they are up in Mass.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MrFusion said:


> I'm a little late on this, but it could have been a Copperhead. I handled one as a kid without incident as well until a neighbor caught me. Some of them can have quite vivid colors and they are up in Mass.


People do win the lottery..... 

Ed


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Ed said:


> People do win the lottery.....
> 
> Ed


Didn't Whit Gibbons do research about the docility of wild copperheads? Its been a few years but I remember something about grad students in chaps seeing how many times they could step on one before it bit.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fieldnstream said:


> Didn't Whit Gibbons do research about the docility of wild copperheads? Its been a few years but I remember something about grad students in chaps seeing how many times they could step on one before it bit.


Yep I remember some of those studies... but how much would you want to risk handling one on that basis? If I remember correctly at one time it was believed that they didn't make venom during the winter. A theory (if I remember correctly) that was put to the test when Kauffield was tagged and had a reaction to the bite. 

Ed


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

No way I would take the risk, but I do remember enjoying reading the paper. With that said, I have never been overcome with the desire to try to replicate his findings and I feel confident that I never will.


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## fishr (Dec 20, 2010)

patm said:


> Is this technically correct? Rear fanged, yes, but it has been a back and forth for many years whether they are actually venomous. I was under the impression they are currently classified as non-venomous. Either way, the toxin on an easter hognose isn't generally dangerous to humans.
> 
> Pat


Hognoses are venomous but the toxicity is low. However if you're allergic to bees, not a wise suggestion to own any rear fanged or any mildy venomous animals. Believe it or not, garter snakes are also rear fanged.

EDIT I see I'm late on this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fishr said:


> Hognoses are venomous but the toxicity is low. However if you're allergic to bees, not a wise suggestion to own any rear fanged or any mildy venomous animals. Believe it or not, garter snakes are also rear fanged.
> 
> EDIT I see I'm late on this.


Check out the links I provided above, the common interpretation is that the toxicity is low but with significant bites (allowing to chew) we see significant bite reactions... 

While it is possible to see a cross reaction it is very unlikely as (I understand it) the main allergic component of bee venom is the carbohydrate branches attached to phospholipase A2 which do not tend to be conserved across taxa (particularly those that are as different as bees and snakes). Often when people are hypersentive to honey bees the cross reaction to other hymenoptera tends to be lessened or no reaction due to the changes in the carbohydrate groups (I am a living example of this as a child I would have a rapid anaphylaxis reaction to honey bees while yellow jackes, and paper wasps caused some swelling and other hymenoptera caused a small lump (ants and sweat bees as an example)). People can have an anaphylactic reaction to snake bites since they are exposed to dried salivary excretions when servicing the snake and cleaning the enclosure (which is a possible source for the few deaths reported for bites from snakes like garter snakes). 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Why are they classified as non-venomous if they envenomate their prey with venom produced in a venom gland...?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Has anyone seen this?

hognose snake bite


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