# Help, First Time Owner



## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

I would like to apologize for the length of this post but I am trying to provide as much information as possible. I'm a first time owner and was thrown into it without being prepared, I have been reading this forum for several days because I have become concerned about the health of my frog. My sister got me the frog for my birthday and I was totally unprepared for it and have no prior experience with keeping poison dart frogs. I have kept animals before but mostly fish and toads. I received the frog in a small plastic deli style container with water in it and a similar container with pin head crickets and a paper towel in it. I didn't have anything ready so I quickly went digging down in my basement for some supplies. I was able to dig up a 30 gallon long terrarium. I cleaned it with boiling water and wiped it out. I then filled 80 percent of it long wise with about 2 inches of gravel and then went out into the yard placed about an inch thick of dirt and moss over the gravel. In the other 20 percent i got some larger stones rinsed them with boiling water and laid them down. I then filled the whole thing with water till it was right below the dirt and moss line. With it filled this high the majority of all the tops of the stones are above water. I grabbed a pump out of an old water fall that I used to have in one of my terrariums and have it pumping water up to the top of some fake leaves hanging in the corner above the stone side of the terrarium to help with humidity and keep the water flowing. All of this was cleaned in boiling water. I then went out and cut a small branch and cleaned and got some fallen leaves from an oak tree. I am describing all of this because If I am sure I prepared some of this incorrectly and I'm wondering if any of it is contributing to the lack of eating that I am currently observing. I have been feeding the frog flightless fruit flies from petco for the last month and a half. At first I would see him hopping around and eating them when I dropped them in, lately he just seems to be ignoring them and loosing weight. I'm not sure where to go from here and I have very limited resources (money) at the moment. If I can't figure out what to do I'll probably ask if any local members would like the frog. I do really enjoy watching the frog and the beauty that the terrarium brings but if it's hurting the poison dart frog I would rather give it up. I do have a temp sensor and humitidy sensor in the terrarium and temp is usually between 68-76 and humidity usually is around 95-99%. Any advice and/or help from local members would be greatly appreciated. Also here is a link to pictures that I took tonight of the frog, I know I have pictures some where of when I first got him but I can't find them to compare his size/weight loss.

Picasa Web Albums - James Polles - Pickle


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Poor little guy. He doesn't look good at all 

Where are you located? Maybe there is someone nearby who can take a look at your frog and your setup, and, bring you some springtails. 

You could also send a fecal sample to an online vet. Here's the website of the one I've used and I have no complaints. He was very quick. You can email him pics or a link to your photos. His email is listed on his site.

http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/drfrye.html


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

wow that is a skinny auratus frog.. I would go and get springtails from outside or go and ask a local frogger for them. Second get him more places to hide and just let the moss die because he needs to be able to hide. Third when you put fruit flies in you are dusting I am assuming but with what products and items? Fourth place the Fruit Flies in the freezer before placing them in the viv and also put less in I would say 5-10 FFs, 3-4 times a day that way he doesn't get stressed out by the flies. I would also get a much smaller tank that way he doesnt have to move around to get FF's so much. Also where do you live so local people around you can start helping you out.
Also place a piece of banana in the viv so that the FF's can put larva in it so the little dude can pick easier targets off =P

Also what age is the frog? Did she tell you or no?

@Frogface lets see if we can help him get it healthy before fecals. That way he isn't on the verge of dying prior to fecals being returned =P. None the less I agree with Frogface that you should have a fecal done but in the mean time before finding out if its parasites or chytrid try to get him back to health


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

I live in North Eastern PA in the Lehigh Valley area. I have been using Exo Terra brand Calcium and Multi Vitamin. I currently do have a piece of apple in the tank which is the bright white in some of the pictures, does banana work a lot better? Also, I do have a few smaller tanks but I was afraid to move him around to much for fear it would stress him out more. Thanks for the quick replies. I was given no info on the age or type of frog.


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## bobzarry (Mar 2, 2005)

I Prefer using banana. I leave the peel on and cut chunks about 1-1/2 to 2 inches. After a while you will start to see the maggots on the banana and even get flies if you feed regularly. I find that after a while you don't have to feed as heavy, since the banana becomes a culture within the viv.



HostileJava said:


> I live in North Eastern PA in the Lehigh Valley area. I have been using Exo Terra brand Calcium and Multi Vitamin. I currently do have a piece of apple in the tank which is the bright white in some of the pictures, does banana work a lot better? Thanks for the quick replies.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

The species it is is Dendrobates Auratus 'Panamanian Green and Bronze'(Correct me if I am wrong someone). A banana works better because the fruit flies can burrow in it easier (Just my opinion). If you can place a quarter next to it I believe someone could probably tell you a rough estimate on age. If you lived out in Tucson I would be over in a second lol. But alas I don't so hopefully someone can help you out better. I would go to like Homedepot/Walmart and get a pothos vine. This will give the little dude something to hide under and such. I would say switch to repashy when get money. Most people on here swear buy it which I think means most people must agree =P. But BOIL ALL LEAVES when you get them. I would go into the tank and toss those leaves out once you get more and boil.. Also I would go into the tree and and get ones about to fall because in another post someone mentioned that most trees have pesticides and ferts in them on the bottom and the longer they are there then the most likely the leaf will absorb the chemicals.

ABefore moving him set up a smaller tank with paper towels as the substrate and have leaves and a pothos vine in there to give him cover. This makes monitoring him much easier. You will be able to tell if he is eating or not.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

I will go out and grab some fresh leaves tonight and boil them. I have about an 1/8th of an acre of property and an oak tree around the middle of the property. I don't use any chemicals to treat my yard but I will boil the leaves before I put them in.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Remember there could be parasites on the leaves that could transfer or even Chytrid that could harm you little dude


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Ok, I have removed all the current leaves and replaced them with boiled leaves, I have replaced the branch with a boiled piece or root and I have also reboiled the fake leaves in the terrarium. I removed the apple and places two banana slices in there place. I have taken pictures, please let me know if you think i should be adding additional leaves. I also made a mistake with the brand of supplements I am using, it is rep-cal. I have a smaller 2.5 gallon tank that I could place him in with paper towels and leaves, I boiled some water and rinsed the tank out with it tonight. I also took a picture of that tank, do you think it is to small?





































You can also visit the album link in my first post for the full size images, sorry about the quality, I am taking all of them with my phone.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Add more leaf litter... I mean lots I have layers and layers of the stuff to allow my little azureus soon to be 5-6 more to hide in... Add a few plants.. I added 3 and now my little guy comes out more and plays. It is about making him comfortable and dont bug him too often either.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree that he needs more cover. Strangely, the more cover they have, the more they are out. I guess because they feel more secure. 

The supplements are good. The little guy needs food. There are a few places on this site for posting wanted ads. I'd post that you are looking for springtails in your area. People on this board are usually very happy to help out a frogger in need of food. 

I'd ask if anyone can help you out with springtails and melanogastor fruit flies. Maybe also point them back to this thread. 

Wanted - Dendroboard

NorthEast - Dendroboard

fyi, VenomR00 and I are both relative noobs here ourselves. Please keep searching for assistance.

eta: pothos is a good cover plant and cheap. Don't boil it though. Just wash it off well and drop cuttings into the tank.

eta2: Maybe drop a post in the health section too http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/

eta3: You're in PA. Leaves dropping up there yet? If so, grab the dry ones off the ground, and toss them in there to make a nice thick layer.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Ya sorry i didn't clarify that I meant boil the leaf litter not the pothos =P. I am doing what someone told me to do with my little dude and now he's healthy and doing pretty well.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Again, thanks everyone for the help and quick replies. I am going to boil and add some more leaves when I get home tonight and add them to the terrarium, I will also try to stop at Lowes or Home depot and get a pothos plant. I had one member offer some supplies that is about 1.5 hours away and another member give me contact info for someone who might be able to help who is only about 20min from where I live. Do you think I should definetely try to move Pickle(my kids named him) to the smaller 2.5 gallon aquarium tonight?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I would never, under and circumstance, use still-green leaves as leaf litter in an enclosed area like that. They can and will cause problems as they decompose, which they will do very quickly compared to already dried leaf litter. 

Get some springtails to seed the tank with, and feed your frog (Should just be called Dendrobates auratus - unless you're able to get a hold of the breeder who produced the frog, we can't visually tell you what type of auratus it is) several fruit flies multiple times a day. If there are ever a bunch of FFs wandering around the vivarium not getting eaten, remove them so they do not stress out the frog. The more you move the frog around, the worse it will be for him.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Removed fresh leaves and replaced with boiled fallen leaves that I collected tonight. Will be picking up some spring tails tomorrow thanks to a local member. I clearly saw him eat at least one FF today. It was coated with calcium and vitamins and he clearly wasn't happy about it, but I did see him eat it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

He should feel more secure with those extra leaves. If you PM me a mailing address, I'll send you some dwarf white isopods. They'll make a nice consistent snack for your frog in the substrate.


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## xshortstufx (Jul 15, 2010)

This is a question for more experienced board members reading this post. Can the dirt be contributing to the problem??? I'm thinking that it might be too wet or there might be some type of contaminant in it.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Please please tell me those two tubes aren't your sole fruit fly cultures! Just like you sterilized those leaves by boiling, you need to do the same with your pothos from HD/Lowes. Obviously you can't boil it so instead take it out of the pot, remove all the soil, rinse it really good with a 10 percent(the percentile character doesn't work anymore?) bleach water solution, rinse it again with dechlorinated water, let it dry, then plant. The process seems like a pain in the neck, I know been there done that, but the preventive measures saves alot of heartache down the road. None of my vivs have had snails, centipedes, what have you. Good luck!



xshortstufx said:


> This is a question for more experienced board members reading this post. Can the dirt be contributing to the problem??? I'm thinking that it might be too wet or there might be some type of contaminant in it.


Great observation. Yes that's a very distinct possibility. This goes towards my insistence on everything being as close to sterile as possible when being introduced to the vivarium. TWI recently sent out chytrid test kits, as some have been unfortunate enough to see chytrid in their collections. Chytrid is very real and very much preset here in the United States and internationally as well.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

fleshfrombone said:


> Please please tell me those two tubes aren't your sole fruit fly cultures!


They are, and they have been producing about 10-15 FF a day, is that not enough? From what I have been reading that seems to be a good amount for a single adult frog, is that wrong? The place I have been buying them (petco) has plenty (15-20) in stock when I go in. I was planning on starting my own cultures, how many should I be keeping? Again, I want to stress how appreciative I am of everyone's help. I came down this morning to turn the light on in the terrarium and found had to stare for a good 10min until i finally saw a piece of him sticking out from the leave cover, I guess he's enjoying it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes definitely make your own cultures. For one frog, I'd probably have 3 going at all times, just to have extras in case of a failure. Much, much cheaper (pennies) to make your own. 

Have you already researched ff culturing? If not, here is a link to a thread that I started that helped me a lot when I first got here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/51529-noob-question-about-ffs.html

And here is an easy 'how to' thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/18630-fruit-fly-culturing-mini-howto.html


I now use folded coffee filters inside the culture. 200 of them for a buck. I've got my cultures in glass canning jars with the inner lid removed and a coffee filter over the top with the ring screwed down on it. These can be rinsed out and reused. I also like them because they are sturdy. I give the bottom a smack to get the flies down and then turn it upside down over the dusting cup and give it another smack. Some folks like the plastic containers but I get flies all over the place with those


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## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

I agree w/FrogFace - the plastic deli containers that are so popular can release a frenzy of flies in the hands of a noob. I use my empty Ozarka water bottles, 23oz. IMO, nothing beats them in controlling fruitfly feeding. Another thing that she didn't mention is that when you make your own cultures, you also have access to the larva. These are good for frogs who have a tough time catching fruitflies or need some extra protein.

It's good to see that your lil dude is taking advantage of cover. We're pulling for him.....


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Glad to hear he is hiding. That is a good sign. Once he starts getting better he will come out more and have fun. I would start building a better viv and not use anything from outside other then leaf litter and plants. I would get stuff to build your tank and once he is better transfer him so this doesn't occur again.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

HostileJava said:


> They are, and they have been producing about 10-15 FF a day, is that not enough? From what I have been reading that seems to be a good amount for a single adult frog, is that wrong? The place I have been buying them (petco) has plenty (15-20) in stock when I go in. I was planning on starting my own cultures, how many should I be keeping? Again, I want to stress how appreciative I am of everyone's help. I came down this morning to turn the light on in the terrarium and found had to stare for a good 10min until i finally saw a piece of him sticking out from the leave cover, I guess he's enjoying it.


No need to beat a dead horse but yes you really should culture your own. Those tubes are not only relatively expensive but they are also meant to supplement fish diets once in a while. You could use them to seed a new culture but that's about it. They burn out quickly.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Well I got some Pothos clippings and a large deli container full of spring tails thanks to boogsawaste today on my lunch break. I put about half the culture of spring tails in the tank(will try to start my own cultures with the rest) and the pothos. I guess time will tell now. I will keep you all updated. Thanks!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Nice. You did disinfect it first right?


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

I did wash it off not to take any chances, however I would assume that it was pretty clean since they were clippings from another terrarium.










I have no idea where he is in there.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Take a full tank picture for me =P I wanna see because you have changed it so much. It is fine not to see him... Just make sure every time you feed him you see him lol =P... if he is still a froglet then he might just be picking off springs. But remember to always keep dusted flys in there. O and for the picture do it in half =P


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

I agree you need alot more hiding spaces. If you can add a pc of driftwood and few plants..... it doesn't have to be alot but enough to provide him with shelter. Also visit Josh's Frogs - Herps Feeders and All The Reptile Supplies You need they have ton of good info for beginners. On the website go to " How To Guide" you'll find some info that would help. Good luck I hope the little guy pulls through


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

VenomR00 said:


> Take a full tank picture for me =P I wanna see because you have changed it so much. It is fine not to see him... Just make sure every time you feed him you see him lol =P... if he is still a froglet then he might just be picking off springs. But remember to always keep dusted flys in there. O and for the picture do it in half =P


I'm not sure by what you meant in half, but I took a bunch of pics.





































There is spider like mold starting to grow around the banana's should I pull them out and clean that up or is it ok?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mold is fine. Springtails like it and frogs don't mind it. The flies will lay eggs in the bananas and soon you'll have cute little maggots in there too. Yummy


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Be careful with that fish tank canopy light. Most of them are tight to the tank top and produce a lot of heat and since there is no gap between the light fixture and the glass lid ect....the heat builds up quite a bit.

Try for temps of around 75F.....if it's close to 80F - especially up top near that light......your'e going to have problems.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Be careful with that fish tank canopy light. Most of them are tight to the tank top and produce a lot of heat and since there is no gap between the light fixture and the glass lid ect....the heat builds up quite a bit.
> 
> Try for temps of around 75F.....if it's close to 80F - especially up top near that light......your'e going to have problems.


I have a temp/humidity gauge mounted to the flip lid in there that does min/max humidity and temps. So far max temp is 76.x

I was inspired by the vivarium setups I see on the site and went up in the attic and grabbed some old shelfing I had been using at my old house for my multi-aquarium setup.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Uh oh, he got shelving! So, what's your next frog going to be? You can get those large shelves that hold multiple tanks.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

You are well on your way. Great job so far. I'm very impressed that someone with little to no DF knowledge already has what looks like a decent temp tank. Well done! lol like frogface said this is just the beginning.


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

You are better of ordering FF online. Go to Josh's Frogs - Herps Feeders and All The Reptile Supplies You need he has cultures as low as $3.99 + shipping. By the time you receive the culture they will start producing and it will last you for about 2 month or more.


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## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

If you order ff's from Josh's, go for the big one. Get the whole kit, with the media and everything. Mix it exactly to his directions, and start you a new culture right away. If you start a new culture once a week, you will never run out of flies.  Good luck. Looks like your off to a good start.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

I am happy to say that while he is still pretty skinny he did immediately hunt and eat all the dusted ff I threw in with him tonight.



















I am concerned about the amount of mold around the banana's at this point, I know it was stated it's ok and doesn't hurt the frog but I would assume it's ok to remove and replace them.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Ok next step, springtails!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

It is ok to remove and replace them. However, the flies will be laying eggs in there and the maggots will be a delicious high fat snack for the frog.

You could also spray the mold with water. That seems to subdue it a bit, in my experience. It will go away on it's own, too. The isopods and springs will also chew on it.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Just a quick update, thanks to frogface I now have isopods. Pickle seems to be doing well and it appears he is putting on weight. I will snap some pics when I get home today. So the tank now has isopods, springtails, and a small FF culture going, I also saw what appear to be nemotodes crawling on the glass and I would assume in the vegetation. Thank you everyone for the help. Now it's time to focus on getting a better vivarium setup. I have several Lucky bamboo plants that I took clippings of this weekend and I am waiting for them to root and the pothos I got seems to be growing and I should be able to take clippings from that in a few weeks.


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

Well this is extremely disappointing.....I got home today and fed pickle, he didn't come out, so being worried I pulled the vivarium out a little bit and started looking at it from all angle, I found him, laying upside down, not breathing under one of the leafs  I don't understand what happened because he appeared to more active and to be putting on weight.


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

sorry to hear about your loss. but give yourself a lot of credit, you did an great job considering what you started with. i hope you stay with us and maybe start with some nice captive bred frogs from this site. 

AG


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh no


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Hostile if you want once I start getting my Azureus Breeding and you have a tank ready say by may I will send you frogs at just the costs of shipping and supplies needed. If you want that is


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## HostileJava (Oct 23, 2010)

VenomR00, I appreciated the offer and I may take you up on it. I also want to thank everyone else who offered there help and who provided me with the insects for seeding the tank and the pothos. I told my kids about it this morning and they insisted on having a funeral tonight to bury pickle. I was actually surprised by how upset my daughter was about the whole thing. To be honest I'm surprised at how upset I am about the entire thing. My wife and I talked and I think we are going to do a complete tear down of the tank, sterilize everything that can be, throw out the rest and start building a proper tank. We both really enjoyed the outside beauty that the vivarium brought to the inside of our house. My wife even admitted to going downstairs and talking to the frog when no one else was around. Thank you everyone for all your help. I'll be hanging out here and reading up on new tank setup.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I lost a frog back in June. I'd only had him a few days but it was still devastating. I cried like a baby. 

Very glad to hear you aren't leaving the hobby. There are some good breeders up your way. Can't wait to see the pics of the new tank and new frog.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

No problem dude. I have kept tons of reptiles in the past but losing one for reasons unknown is the toughest. So I have no problem hooking you up later on.. Azureus breed massively and so I figure I will have tons of froglets with 7 azures, 4 bahukis and 3 auratus so when they all start breeding I will let you choose which you woould like. I also am probably getting a leuc pair so I will have tons to choose from =P


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## Goji (Oct 14, 2010)

I am so sorry about pickles especially after everything you went through to save him. I lost my first two just few hour after I received them and it was really hard for me. I am glad that you are staying and trying again because this is one of a kind hobby. I wish you and your family the best and good luck for next time


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VenomR00 said:


> . But BOIL ALL LEAVES when you get them. I would go into the tank and toss those leaves out once you get more and boil


 
I'm coming into this thread a little late and I am sorry you lost the frog. I am going to make some comments on dogma that are not intended to indicate you did anything wrong. The frog may have originated from a wild caught shipment or had been poorly cared for before you recieved it and could have taxed the ability of the most experienced to keep it alive. Keeping poison dart frogs doesn't have to be expensive and can be done well when done simply. Feel free to read through the forum and you may be able to get some frogs from someone more local to you that will do much better. 

I just want to point some kneejerk dogma here.. I found it interesting that there was a massive stampede to recommend boiling the leaves he collected off the same ground where he collected the soil which was put into the enclosure without any sterilization procedures. In a case like this, a recommendation to boil the leaves was closing the barn door after the horse had left.... 

I am also surprised to see that there is a perception that leaves on a tree will have a lower pesticide residue than those that are falling or have just fallen from the tree.... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

The reason I said boil the leaves wasn't to remove pesticides Ed. It was to kill bacteria and virus's from the natural wildlife that could pose a problem. But if you are going to state pesticides also then you must also consider that majority of trees in a neighborhood will NOT have pesticides on them as majority of people only fertilize and spray pesticides on there lawn or shrubs. Most people (this is coming from someone who had the chore of spraying stuff weekly on my mothers plants in florida) forget that bugs also tend to live in trees. So in a normal situation the pesticides on the lawn will be absorbed into the newly fallen leaves must more readily then say the evaporation into leaves currently attached to the tree. (I do also release that the tree itself absorbs the pesticides through the root which may help with the transference of it to the leaves).

This may be dogma but I wasn't trying to have him kill the pesticides within the plant but rather the parasites. As you have stated many times there is no true way to completely 100% kill bacteria from leaves or soil. But it will help reduce the chance that the parasite will be alive to attack the host.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VenomR00 said:


> The reason I said boil the leaves wasn't to remove pesticides Ed. It was to kill bacteria and virus's from the natural wildlife that could pose a problem. But if you are going to state pesticides also then you must also consider that majority of trees in a neighborhood will NOT have pesticides on them as majority of people only fertilize and spray pesticides on there lawn or shrubs. Most people (this is coming from someone who had the chore of spraying stuff weekly on my mothers plants in florida) forget that bugs also tend to live in trees. So in a normal situation the pesticides on the lawn will be absorbed into the newly fallen leaves must more readily then say the evaporation into leaves currently attached to the tree. (I do also release that the tree itself absorbs the pesticides through the root which may help with the transference of it to the leaves).
> 
> This may be dogma but I wasn't trying to have him kill the pesticides within the plant but rather the parasites. As you have stated many times there is no true way to completely 100% kill bacteria from leaves or soil. But it will help reduce the chance that the parasite will be alive to attack the host.


Actually I wasn't suggesting or referencing that boiling was to remove pesticides. I was pointing out the kneejerk dogma to boil the leaves to reduce the chance of pathogen exposure when all of the substrate was untreated soil collected from outside (same area the leaves came from..). I am surprised that there was less thought about potential pathogen exposure from the soil than the leaves... I was also surprised that there was such a strong recommendation to discard the unsterilized leaves but not the soil. Soil has a greater chance of a pathogen/parasite being present than the leaves.. 

What I was referencing about the pesticides was the comment 



VenomR00 said:


> Also I would go into the tree and and get ones about to fall because in another post someone mentioned that most trees have pesticides and ferts in them on the bottom and the longer they are there then the most likely the leaf will absorb the chemicals.


Unless someone is going around and spraying the downed leaves with additional pesticides/herbicides/fertilizers, any residue is going to have been deposited in the leaf while on the tree so it really doesn't matter if the leaf is collected from clean ground or from the tree.. in any case if someone was going around and spraying the downed leaves, he would still have a huge chunk of soil that was potentially contaminated in the tank.. 


I understand there is a lot of desire to help people out and that is good thing, but when people are missing items on this scale it indicates that dogma has taken precendence to critical thinking and review of the problem at hand. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed

We did touch on the dirt from outdoors, but, the frog had already been in it for a while. I think that the primary focus was on getting that frog fed and sheltered. I think the OP has done his homework now, and, there won't be yard dirt in his next viv.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> Ed
> 
> We did touch on the dirt from outdoors, but, the frog had already been in it for a while. I think that the primary focus was on getting that frog fed and sheltered. I think the OP has done his homework now, and, there won't be yard dirt in his next viv.


 
I did see that the dirt was touched on but it was lost in the constant barrage of boiling the leaf litter when the soil was remaining in the tank. The reference to soil was with a contaminent but chytrid was specifically mentioned with respect to the leaves and not in respect to the soil. 


I agree the main issue was getting the frog to feed, which given its weight loss, refeeding syndrome should also have been considered as a problem (see for http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...ncy-rescue-force-feeding-metabolic-needs.html for a discussion on refeeding). 


Using yard dirt isn't necessarily the problem. For example a lot of people on here either collect or purchase termites that have been collected for use despite the fact that these are going to be contaminated with soil and thus potentially pathogens. Additionally people collect and utilize other materials that cannot be sterilized in their enclosures (like wood, pillow moss, rocks) without autoclaving them.... 

Soil can provide benefits such as small feeders in the way of soil arthropods and a calcium enriched substrate as well as a source of Mycorrhizae, but there are risks in using soil as well. 

The problem was in this situation, the need was to get the frog stablilized, and the OP was directed to unnecessarily boil leaves as a precaution against pathogens when there was soil from the same location as the leaves, etc and soil is a greater risk of carrying a pathogen than freshly fallen leaf litter. 

Ed


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