# How big do Frogs need to be in order to Eat Crickets?



## that Frog Guy

I keep having problems with my Fruit Fly Cultures Crashing.

I saw some videos of people feeding their Poison Dart Frogs Crickets.

How big do Frogs need to be in order to Eat Crickets?

I do not want them to choke or have any Problems from trying to eat a Cricket.

I keep a lot of Crickets for my Lizards so it would be much much easier for me to feed my Frogs Crickets and not have to ever deal with Fruit Flies again.


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## volcano23000

They must be extremely young crickets. I'm not sure about sizing of the crickets or frogs but I think I heard that larger frogs like tincs and terribilis can do crickets a little larger than pinheads. Idk though. If you breed crickets you can feed the frogs hatchlings, but if you don't breed, you will probably have a hard time locating them for sale near you. Don't quote me on any of this, but i hope it helps at least a little!!


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## that Frog Guy

Here is the video I saw where I got the idea.

But the Crickets look much much bigger than PinHeads.

If I had to say these are 1/4" to 1/2" Inch Crickets that the Frogs are being Fed.


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## gturmindright

I wouldnt feed crickets as a main food source. Not even to adult terribilis. I just have a feeling its hard for them to digest. You should figure out what is going wrong with your culturing. I havent had a failed FF culture in years unless you count not making them often enough.


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## Dane

Most larger Phyllobates can take down 1/2" crix with ease, but for tincs, auratus, leucs etc., you would want to limit their intake to 1-2 week olds (usually called pinheads). A good rule of thumb for most darts is to limit the prey size to roughly the distance between the frog's eyes.
Just remember that any crickets that aren't eaten immediately have a good chance of surviving within the viv. Adult crix have the potential to stress frogs, eat eggs, and plague your sanity once they start chirping.


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## Dane

If I'm not mistaken, crickets are one of the more complete feeders as far as nutritional value. They would be a great staple if it weren't for all the drawbacks.



gturmindright said:


> I wouldnt feed crickets as a main food source. Not even to adult terribilis. I just have a feeling its hard for them to digest. You should figure out what is going wrong with your culturing. I havent had a failed FF culture in years unless you count not making them often enough.


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## frog dude

AHHHHHHH CRICKETS! NEVA AGAIN! 

I hate 'em.


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## carola1155

also, if your signature is correct... you are going to need fruit flies for your vents. I'm going to echo what has been said before and recommend figuring out why your cultures are crashing.


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## frog dude

I would try to diagnose why the fruit fly cultures are crashing instead of find a new food source. 

Can you give us some information, maybe we could diagnose it for you? You probably use Josh's Frogs media, Have you ever had problems with mites and/or mold? Do you sprinkle yeast on the media? Do you add Vinegar or Methyl Paraben to the media? What temperature are you keeping them at? How old are they when they start to crash? What does a crashed culture look like?


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## hypostatic

What type of frogs are you feeding? Frogs like terribillis have an easier time taking down larger prey like crickets because they have tongues/mouths that are adapted to take larger prey -- they'll even "chomp" down on larger prey with their mouths, whereas other frogs will just use their tongues. Other frogs like tincs have tongues that are actually adapted for smaller prey (they taper off at the end), so they would have trouble with the larger crickets.

From what I've read on the boards frogs that were kept way back in the 80s or 90s were fed almost exclusively pinhead crickets.

My personal issue with crickets is that they can be quite nasty buggers, and they might decide to nibble on your frogs while they sleep.


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## pa.walt

pinheads are new born... about 1/16 in. smaller than a hydei. 
5-7 days are around a week old. 3/8 in tops. I feed mine 10 days tops. after about 1 1/2 weeks to me they are to big. 
if you do try crickets try to buy maybe by length not say age. most people do not know how big a pinhead is or if you say give me 7 days they don't know what you are talking about. 
also try and breed a few. there are tutorial on how to breed them not that hard.


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## pa.walt

hypostatic said:


> My personal issue with crickets is that they can be quite nasty buggers, and they might decide to nibble on your frogs while they sleep.


does anyone have proof of this.... show me pictures. everyone says this but I never see pictures.


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## jrodkinsey

pa.walt said:


> does anyone have proof of this.... show me pictures. everyone says this but I never see pictures.


It is actually quite common. Just use google and you can probably find quite a few pics. If the animal is sick or stressed out sometimes the crickets take bites out of the animal here and there and to the stress and eventually killing the animal. Common with insectivore lizards as well if you toss in too many at once. It doesn't happen all the time but like I said it is definitely no unheard of.


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## hypostatic

Are you asking for proof of crickets nibbling on dart frogs, or that they can nibble on animals in general? Although I don't believe I've read of anyone saying their dart frogs were bit by crickets, they are well known to bite lizards and other frogs.

Here is a thread where people have posted pictures of their frogs and geckos that have been bit by crickets:
Cricket bites Please post pics - talk to the frog
Here's another example, with several pics showing multiple wounds:
Cricket bites 3 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Crickets have serious biting power, they can chew through wood and plastic. Here's a closeup of their mandibles:
http://www.janrik.net/MiscSubj/2007/CricketMandibles20071220/CricketMandibles20071220.jpg

I'm not saying that it can't be done; like I said, I believe that's what old timers did for like, a decade or two way back in the beginning of the hobby.

I'm just saying that I, personally, would not want to leave my frogs unattended with crickets, knowing their propensity for biting animals.


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## pdfCrazy

OK, I have a little experience with breeding crickets. I use to work for a reptile breeder here in town (Pro-exotics) (which is now Ship Your Reptiles). I learned how to culture and breed crickets while there. First off, a cricket breeding operation takes up MUCH more space than FF's. Second, Cricket breeding is absolutly smelly and nasty. Cricket breeding is almost gaurenteed to also create a nice Colony of spiders for you. Crickets, in order to reproduce in quantites we need, require higher temps than room temperature. Around 85-90 degrees. Crickets also have a high degree of Chitin in their exoskeleton that is hard for alot of amphibians to digest. I think that smalll crickets in moderation can be a good thing for some of our medium to larger darts, but I would not try to subsist on them alone.


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## hypostatic

pdfCrazy said:


> Cricket breeding is absolutely smelly and nasty.


This is my biggest qualm with crickets. Along with the fact that they're mean and bite. No thanks for me.


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## that Frog Guy

carola1155 said:


> also, if your signature is correct... you are going to need fruit flies for your vents. I'm going to echo what has been said before and recommend figuring out why your cultures are crashing.


True, but my Vents do not eat much.

My regular Frogs, on the hand, are non-stop eating machines.


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## that Frog Guy

frog dude said:


> I would try to diagnose why the fruit fly cultures are crashing instead of find a new food source.
> 
> Can you give us some information, maybe we could diagnose it for you? You probably use Josh's Frogs media, Have you ever had problems with mites and/or mold? Do you sprinkle yeast on the media? Do you add Vinegar or Methyl Paraben to the media? What temperature are you keeping them at? How old are they when they start to crash? What does a crashed culture look like?



Yes, Josh's Media

I do get mold.

Mites (Not sure if I get that - How do I know)

I do use Yeast

I do not add Vinegar as Josh says his media means you do not need Vinegar.

I have gotten Flies from the Reptile Show that stink like you would not believe so I assume they use Vinegar.

I seem to have better luck with those flies than when I make my own though.

Sometimes I loose my flies in a few days.

I mean some will survive for a long time but after a few days I never have enough to feed my Frogs.

I think I go through most of them in like 3 days.

Then I stop using the culture to try to give it time to "Come Back"

But it usually never does but not all the Flies die.

There are always at least 10-20 but not enough to feed my Frogs.

I keep them around 80 degrees I would say.

What temperature is best for the Cultures?


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## carola1155

that Frog Guy said:


> True, but my Vents do not eat much.
> 
> My regular Frogs, on the hand, are non-stop eating machines.


I don't get your point. You still need to feed them, so you still need fruit flies. Just because they don't eat much doesn't mean you can stop culturing flies completely.

How many cultures are you making per week?


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## that Frog Guy

carola1155 said:


> I don't get your point. You still need to feed them, so you still need fruit flies. Just because they don't eat much doesn't mean you can stop culturing flies completely.
> 
> How many cultures are you making per week?


I try to make 2 per week but the problem is sometimes I do not get around to it.

The Vents do eat much at all so this is not a problem.

But my regular frogs eat me out of house and home.

And when you run out of flies you are screwed.

The Reptile Show is only once a month and I can get more there but they are newly made so they take a few weeks to make.

I tried to order from Josh's Frogs when I ran out but then I paid double show price plus tax and shipping and both Cultures came to me dead and with mold and the flies never came back so it was a total waste of money. I will never order from Josh again (Flies that is) ( I buy some other other stuff from him).

When my Crickets crash I just go to any PetSmart, PetCo, or PSP.

Then I stock up again with a few 500 Count boxes from the next reptile show.

Now you see why I would prefer Crickets over Flies.

Crickets are so incredibly easy to come by while flies are impossible to come by.


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## carola1155

How many frogs do you have and what kind of flies are you culturing?


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## that Frog Guy

carola1155 said:


> How many frogs do you have and what kind of flies are you culturing?



I have 6 Frogs.

I use Meganster flies.

For some reason it seems like Hydei will last and I have made a couple and they provide me a ton of flies.

Are they easier to breed perhaps?

I have always stuck with Melaganster in the past and have good success but the last few months have been rough.


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## Bcs TX

After you start your cultures how long are you leaving them before you use them to feed?
If you have mold in a culture it can easily spread to other cultures, so if you see a moldy culture be sure to freeze it and toss it. Mel's will produce faster than hydei and wingless Mel's produce a little faster than Turkish gliders.
Did you contact Josh about the fruit flies being bad? He is very good about standing behind his products. Along with help on getting the cultures to work for you since you are using his media.
Another thing is to try to find local Froggers in your area to help out with cultures in case you have a crash or run out.


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## pa.walt

and wingless Mel's produce a little faster than Turkish gliders.
I always thought that Turkish gliders produce quicker than the wingless.


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## Bcs TX

For me the wingless produce a little faster but the Turkish gliders produce more flies longer.


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## epiphytes etc.

Hmmm .... For me, wingless are slower, more like hydei.



> After you start your cultures how long are you leaving them before you use them to feed?


Steve, I also am curious.


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## Bcs TX

epiphytes etc. said:


> Hmmm .... For me, wingless are slower, more like hydei.


Maybe temps? I culture 10 of each at the same time every other week and wingless take off faster....

Back to the thread...
IMO you need to get your ffy culturing in check, it's a staple for darts. Try adding
More water ( I am assuming you are following the directions on Josh' s media) will say depending on temps and humidity you need to add more or less water, for example, due to the Tx heat now and low humidity I add a little more water to my culture's. Always culture extras...
As far as crickets including others opinions they have the potential to carry a lot of nasties like coccidia.

No offense, but always a good practice to culture ffy' s and get the hang of it before purchasing dart frogs.


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## that Frog Guy

Bcs TX said:


> After you start your cultures how long are you leaving them before you use them to feed?
> If you have mold in a culture it can easily spread to other cultures, so if you see a moldy culture be sure to freeze it and toss it. Mel's will produce faster than hydei and wingless Mel's produce a little faster than Turkish gliders.
> Did you contact Josh about the fruit flies being bad? He is very good about standing behind his products. Along with help on getting the cultures to work for you since you are using his media.
> Another thing is to try to find local Froggers in your area to help out with cultures in case you have a crash or run out.


After about 2 weeks once they start popping.

I like to wait a few days after they start popping but normally I cannot wait.

What are Turkish Gliders?


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## that Frog Guy

What is the Best Temperature to keep Fruit Flies at?


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## tODDski

I haven't had a bad culture since I started using Josh's media. I also never care if a culture gets mold - I still use it. I can't say enough good things about Josh's media. I keep my cultures on the cooler side and in my basement stairwell. Always 50% humidity or less, never over 70 degrees, and I leave a light on the cultures (just the stairwell light). I found that the light on makes healthier cultures and them faster. 

I got over crickets awhile ago, but in a pinch I'll buy some. Now I take an old log and set it on the ground in my woods. I come back in two weeks and harvest all the bugs. I get termites, worms, ants or whatever is there, and my frogs have never been healthier. My day Geckos dig it as well.


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## tODDski

I'd like to add this also. Since I have been harvesting my bugs outside, I no longer use calcium or vitamins. I will use those nutrients, only if I use crickets. Ive been harvesting my own bugs for 6.5 years now. I currently have several frogs that are 10+ years old. Moreover, I haven't had a death since I started harvesting my own bugs outside. I also feed my Tarantulas from bugs outside. 

Please understand that I use zero pesticides outside. I have Bat Houses for Mosquitos, Bald Face Wasps for Moths, tons of Frogs, Snakes and anything beneficial to control pests. It took me years to stop trying to control nature on my property, and just let nature do its thing. My K9s control everything else on the property - coyotes, deer, fox, vermin and such.


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## WendySHall

You should think about adding bean beetles to your feeder selection. Although I still culture flies (especially for the young froglets), beetles have made things so much easier for me. They are much easier to culture and keep going. No worries about humidity, mites, and whether or not the culture will produce well. The beetles always produce _very _well.


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## gturmindright

I use Joshs media. I don't add anything to it except for water. I never get mold. I always use new containers. I keep them at room temperature. I feed mostly hydei but I always keep one melano going just in case. I don't feed out of them until I see a ton in there. The only thing i do with the first wave of flies is use some of them to make new cultures. You have to wait until the explosion of flies happens. Then start to feed. I try to make new cultures every other week.


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## Judy S

I only started having success...after many weeks of misery...when I microwaved the container cups and lids...and used boiled distilled water...we have a well and whatever was in the water must've kept me from having any good cultures. I make three cultures every week and a half...and rotate them every day because it seems as though the larva appear on one side of the cup...so I just figured it might increase the production. I have used Josh's media as well as the Repashy...both great products....but usually have to add more water than is called for. I also microwave the excelsior before putting into the cups...and immediately put the lids on and wait for the culture to be really, really cooled. Made the mistake one time of not waiting long enough...Try one thing different...then another...you will eventually get the right system going...and see whether you can connect with a local person who is culturing FFs for a backup plan...some time they made need one of YOUR cultures....good luck...


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## hypostatic

Hey so I've got some more Qs for you:
How wet is the media right before you add flies?
How many flies are you adding?
Does your media dry up or crack before you're done with the culture?
How long do you wait to start collect flies after you've started the culture? Do you wait until larva or new flies have appeared?

I think the best temperature to keep the flies at is in the 70s. But I've had good production in ranging from 60-80. I think they start cooking in the 90s?

I would really recommend using vinegar. A lot of the problems I was having were resolved when I added vinegar to my media (even though the directions say it's not necessary). To be honest I think the cultures smell a bit better WITH vinegar after it's settled a few days (and especially towards the end of the culture's life). I think adding vinegar is especially helpful because it inhibits molds, and it encourages the flies to lay eggs. I think it might even speed up development a bit by helping the larva digest the media because it's more acidic.


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## that Frog Guy

WendySHall said:


> You should think about adding bean beetles to your feeder selection. Although I still culture flies (especially for the young froglets), beetles have made things so much easier for me. They are much easier to culture and keep going. No worries about humidity, mites, and whether or not the culture will produce well. The beetles always produce _very _well.


How big are Bean Beetles?

Where do you get them?

I have never heard of them.


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## that Frog Guy

hypostatic said:


> Hey so I've got some more Qs for you:
> How wet is the media right before you add flies?
> How many flies are you adding?
> Does your media dry up or crack before you're done with the culture?
> How long do you wait to start collect flies after you've started the culture? Do you wait until larva or new flies have appeared?
> 
> I think the best temperature to keep the flies at is in the 70s. But I've had good production in ranging from 60-80. I think they start cooking in the 90s?
> 
> I would really recommend using vinegar. A lot of the problems I was having were resolved when I added vinegar to my media (even though the directions say it's not necessary). To be honest I think the cultures smell a bit better WITH vinegar after it's settled a few days (and especially towards the end of the culture's life). I think adding vinegar is especially helpful because it inhibits molds, and it encourages the flies to lay eggs. I think it might even speed up development a bit by helping the larva digest the media because it's more acidic.


It is dry. I wait for it to cool off before I add any Flies. (I use boiling water so I do not want to kill off any flies. I normally wait a few hours after putting in the Media then ass excelsior and Flies).

I do add much more than recommended since I want it to start to produce faster.

As for how many I could not tell you.

I just dump a bunch in.

But it is definetly more than what all the people put in their Cultures at the Reptile Show. 

I wait until new flies are in there before I start using a culture. (At least 2 Weeks).

I also try to wait a few days after I see a ton of flies too to give them more time but sometimes I need them right away.

I will try Vinegar then.

How much do you put in a single culture?


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## that Frog Guy

Well my room where I keep the Flies in never hits 90 Degrees.

But it can be 80 to 85 Degrees.

It is by far the hottest room in the house for some reason.

My basement stays a constant 70 Degrees.

So should I just keep them in my basement where it is much cooler?

I keep Super Worms in the basement with no problems.

Then one day I left the Super Worms in my bedroom for a day or two and they all died.

Where do most people keep their Flies?


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## FrogBoyMike

that Frog Guy said:


> What is the Best Temperature to keep Fruit Flies at?


I would shoot more for the low 70's if you can. I have used Josh's with no issue till the summer started coming and suddenly getting lots of mold. But keepin them at a lower temp now is really seaming to help. also make sure they are not drying out. few drops of water once a week helps me in these drier months. 

Sounds like you might also wanna make an extra culture or two at a time. It's always better to have to many then to little


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## gturmindright

I keep my flies near my frogs. They are usually around 70. Also, when you are letting your media cool do you have a lid on them or do you leave them open to the air? I like to keep my lids on so that no water escapes and also to minimize outside contaminants.


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## that Frog Guy

gturmindright said:


> I keep my flies near my frogs. They are usually around 70. Also, when you are letting your media cool do you have a lid on them or do you leave them open to the air? I like to keep my lids on so that no water escapes and also to minimize outside contaminants.


I do keep the Lids on while I wait to keep the Humidity up and so the cultures do not dry out.


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## that Frog Guy

OK, I am going to move my cultures to the basement.

But I am wondering.

Will they produce slower due to the colder temperature?


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## that Frog Guy

So I just watched Josh's video on making Fruit Fly Cultures.

He says to spray a piece of paper towel with Mite Spray then put the cultures on top of it to prevent mites.

I do not know if I have ever had mites or not.

Is it definetly worth doing this?

He says in the video that there are mites everywhere.

He also says that you will know if you have mites because when you open the culture your face will itch.

Well my face has never itched before from fruit fly cultures.

So I assume that I have never had mites in them them.

Have you guys ever itched from cultures?


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## hypostatic

You'll only itch from mite infested cultures if you're allergic to mites. If you're allergic to dust/dust mites (and I think shellfish?) there's a good chance you'd be allergic to grain mites.

A note on fruit fly production:
Adding more flies will not decrease the time it takes for more flies to be produced. You might get more flies per development cycle, but I think you can also get less due to overcrowding

How *fast* the new generations take to develop is temperature dependent. Here are development times by temperature:
54F - 50+ days
64F - 19 days
77F - 8.5 days
82F - 7 days
86F - 11 days
source: Drosophila melanogaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So the ideal temp for the shortest development time is 82F, with the flies succumbing to heat stress at higher temps, causing longer development times. So I would suggest keeping your flies in the high 70s.


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## dallas green and gold

I live in the dallas area and neither petco or petsmart had any crickets that were small enough. I found an awesome local cricket breeder (dallas tx) $ 5.00 per 100 and she has the pin heads and true 1/4 inch crickets I use them in with my melo ff I use quarters for my cobalt tinc (they love them and first to go) but they are more as a treat (diffrent nutrients) then the meal they are like the green beens and yes they will save your rear when you really need food... my best advise is when you go to the shows most will be local vendors . GET THEIR PHONE NUMBER they are more then happy to sell to you between shows. Best contacts and ussually very passionate about the hobby more then a buisness tends to get you a straight answer not just what they have in stock or want to sell you. I am a newer frogger myself started with 3 leucs fell in loce by week 2 now have 14 frogs 4 species and saving for more...LOCAL VENDORS ARE A HUGE ADVANTAGE IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS such as worms in your eggs ( thanks casper) 

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2


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## that Frog Guy

hypostatic said:


> You'll only itch from mite infested cultures if you're allergic to mites. If you're allergic to dust/dust mites (and I think shellfish?) there's a good chance you'd be allergic to grain mites.
> 
> A note on fruit fly production:
> Adding more flies will not decrease the time it takes for more flies to be produced. You might get more flies per development cycle, but I think you can also get less due to overcrowding
> 
> How *fast* the new generations take to develop is temperature dependent. Here are development times by temperature:
> 54F - 50+ days
> 64F - 19 days
> 77F - 8.5 days
> 82F - 7 days
> 86F - 11 days
> source: Drosophila melanogaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> So the ideal temp for the shortest development time is 82F, with the flies succumbing to heat stress at higher temps, causing longer development times. So I would suggest keeping your flies in the high 70s.


Others have said keep them at 70 Degrees.

Should I keep them at higher temperatures while the culture is developing like you said and once they start popping move them to my basement where it is 70 degrees to keep the culture from crashing like others have recommended?


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## Judy S

As I suggested in a former post...try more than one thing to determine which part of the process works for you....if you make four cultures with/without the vinegar...and divide up the cultures into two different areas...you can learn which part of the process is most successful. Mark the cups as to date, type of fly, and vinegar...put one in the basement of each , and the other two cultures (vinegar, and location)...and experiment...


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## hypostatic

I think it depends on what you want to achieve. At 70F I think it will take you about two weeks to get a new generation of flies, whereas at about 80F you'll get a new generation in about a week.

I think what most people are trying to help you out with is to figure out whats going wrong with your fly culturing in general. It sounds like your general problem is that you'll use up all of the flies in your culture too quickly before more flies are produced; not that your cultures are crashing and all the flies are dying for some reason -- is this correct?

If you are just running out of flies, I would recommend setting up more cultures (like twice as many), and then rotating between the cultures.

If your flies are actually DYING, then something is going wrong, like the media is drying out too much, or maybe the flies are in direct sunlight and are overheating too much.

I'm a pretty visual person, so if you could post pictures of your cultures or your culturing process, maybe I'd be able to help you with more specific tips. Pictures like what a typical culture look like right after you add flies, one week after you've added flies, and what the culture looks like right after you've fed out flies for the first time would be very helpful I think.


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## that Frog Guy

hypostatic said:


> I think it depends on what you want to achieve. At 70F I think it will take you about two weeks to get a new generation of flies, whereas at about 80F you'll get a new generation in about a week.
> 
> I think what most people are trying to help you out with is to figure out whats going wrong with your fly culturing in general. It sounds like your general problem is that you'll use up all of the flies in your culture too quickly before more flies are produced; not that your cultures are crashing and all the flies are dying for some reason -- is this correct?
> 
> If you are just running out of flies, I would recommend setting up more cultures (like twice as many), and then rotating between the cultures.
> 
> If your flies are actually DYING, then something is going wrong, like the media is drying out too much, or maybe the flies are in direct sunlight and are overheating too much.
> 
> I'm a pretty visual person, so if you could post pictures of your cultures or your culturing process, maybe I'd be able to help you with more specific tips. Pictures like what a typical culture look like right after you add flies, one week after you've added flies, and what the culture looks like right after you've fed out flies for the first time would be very helpful I think.


Well at 80 Degrees it takes me 2 weeks (One week like you said would be amazing but that never happens for me? Why is that) for Melos and 3 weeks for Hydei.

I just made 4 Cultures.

I put 2 in the basement and left 2 in my room.

I'll see what happens.

Yeah they do not die - some live - 

Yeah, They just kind of stop producing.

I see the pods (rice shaped) where the fly is transforming.

There are plenty of those but it seems after a few days they stop morphing.

But there are still a few flies cruising around the culture.

Do you get what I am saying? I do not know if I am wording it correctly or not.


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## that Frog Guy

Does anyone have a picture of what mites look like?


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## hypostatic

that Frog Guy said:


> Yeah they do not die - some live -
> 
> Yeah, They just kind of stop producing.
> 
> I see the pods (rice shaped) where the fly is transforming.
> 
> There are plenty of those but it seems after a few days they stop morphing.


Here is an up close video of what they look like:





Here's a nice picture of a REALLY infested culture:








http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/68380-id-small-tan-insects-bottom-culture.html

So you're saying that out of the original flies that you seed the culture with, there is a good proportion that die off (before the new generation of flies emerges)? If a large percentage of the flies don't emerge from their pupa. then something is definitely going wrong.

Post some pictures -- they'd be really helpful.


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## that Frog Guy

I will post some pictures very soon.

Thanks for all the help guys.


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