# MY 75g!! finished.. except planting more stufff... what should i get???



## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

Ok so i finnaly finished the basic build.. with the ultimate filtered in tank waterfalls!!! accessable , and virtually unclogable!
im sorry this was extrememly frustrating, and im very proud of myself right now 

so heres a pic, i still need more plants and moss for sure, 

but the idea behind the mechanics and construction i think are brilliant.



















layer1-clayballs in water..
layer2-finest screen mesh possible wraped around egg crate. siliconed with gravel and rocks.. 
-walls blocking the clay balls... also boxing in the water pumps
- retaining walls for the soil all around!
layer 3- 1cm more gravel
layer 4- 3/4" compressed spanish/sphagnum/forest/pete moss.
layer 5- 2"+ tropical soil+coco fiber soil+petemoss/soil mix.
layer 6- tropical and pillow moss so far...

im lookin to fill in all the soil with plants and more moss.. i like tropical more than pillow i think.. but im trying to get some riccia.




planting ideas!! new frog ideas!!! what should i do next??


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I don't quite understand... do you already have frogs in this? If not what's with the picture of the frog?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Love the tank! Gonna be great with more plants. Get some viney stuff. I love viney stuff.

As for what frogs to get. I'd get some more of what you got.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

nice start, but you need a lot more plants and some leaf litter


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

ya that blue frog is the auratus i have. u can kinda see him in the corner in the big pic of the viv. he is awesome but , yea i definatly need to fill the tank.

im ordering 2 more frogs this week, i want a red one and a yellow one.

i dont know much about plants or even if i planted these right.

i have 3 very small ficus species, viney ones and 1 brom and 4 lucky bamboos... but thats all for now.

my next step will definatly be to get more moss.. i kinda wanted to wait to get some riccia. it looks nice.

but i dont know what other kinds of plants to get.. i want some in water some half in and half out, and some colorfull and bright green stuff.. lol

but even more of a question where to go to get viv plants in GTA, ontario?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

mixing species, not a good idea!!


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

well i figured completely diff species might be bad. is there anything red or yellow that can live in the same tank as this???


any1 know a viv supply store in GTA/toronto, ontario?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

inst Mark Pepper located just outside Toronto?


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

What type of "red one and a yellow one" frogs were you planning on getting? Mixing is not a good idea, do a search here on it and you will see why. Worry about making the tank suitable for the frogs you already have first by adding leaf litter and more plants before you even think about getting more frogs, and when you do get more, get them of the same species and morph you already have.
Bryan


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Mixing is a bad idea, period.
It's one of those "if you're asking about it, you probably shouldn't do it"
type of things.

No one's stopping you, we're just trying to get you think about what would be best for the frogs. 

If you mix, be prepared to loose some pets. 

Sorry If I sound a little harsh, but it's the honest truth.

If you're dead-set on mixing, why not get more (and I mean ALOT MORE) experience with the care of dartfrogs, and then start thinking about (and try to reconsider) a community tank?

(and let me note that I am not saying he should or can mix, even with more experience)


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

well the yellow and red one i saw, i thought was the same name.. 

but obviously i would be doing more research on that before actually doing it.. which is why im asking.. 

but ya marks my only source, i was hoping there was a supply store somewhere near me though.


if i were to mix, i would like different colours , of same species if that exiists.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

There's no such thing as a yellow or red auratus......

and even if there were, they would most likely be from different locales, and if they bred, that would be crossing morphs, that would be a bad thing too, because many people feel the bloodlines need to remain pure, including me. Just do a search on "hybridization" because there isn't a need to have another thread on the subject. Trust me, there are ALOT of threads about mixing and hybridization. Again, sorry if I'm coming off as hostile, but this is stuff every begginer needs to know.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

There are Golden Auratus


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

ya i just looked that old thread up.

and some guy at reptilia told me the "bumblebee" dendro would be ok with mine. but yea its a lucomelas.

i wish they could live together though.. would look awesome.. 


im gunna end up getting an auratus camo.. and mabey the auratus san felix if its in stock..


but what can i do as of this week.. because mark is gone til friday.

any stuff i can get from any garden centers?


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/55687-community.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/55890-questions-need-answers.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/55784-noob-confusion.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/40870-so-you-want-reason-not-mix-species.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/41942-d-leucomelas-d-auratus.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/51190-morphs.html

Some threads you might want to read on the subject.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Julio said:


> There are Golden Auratus


Sorry, I forgot about those.

I didn't think there were many people working with them here. Apparently there are a few, there was a little discussion about then over at DF today I think.

Well, there arn't any red ones! 
lol


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

It's good that you are asking and doing the research first. Mixing two different color varieties (morphs) of the same species is also very bad because they will breed together usually and the "hybrid" frogs could get mixed in to the hobby and make it impossible to tell what locale a frog is. There are no red or yellow auratus (except the gold auratus.) There are yellow and black frogs called Dendrobates leucomelas which would also be a good beginner frog, but not with your auratus. If you want two types, it's always a good excuse to set up a second tank. If space is an issue and you can't have any more tanks, you could look into a split tank- where you split it in half and be creative with hiding the glass divider (vines, plants, tree stumps, etc.) so that it looks like one continuous tank but you can house two types of frogs, one on each side. Good luck and keep up the research.
Bryan

*Edit*
I just saw you were going to get a camo and san felix auratus, again I recommend that you consider trying to get more of the type you already have. If you end up mixing morphs and they breed it would be a very bad thing if the offspring somehow got into the hobby...


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

well, thanks for the responses guys..


i definatly will be sticking with auratus' , i started out this hobby with an autistic water dragon last summer.. so who knows what will happen next..

if mark can get me a golden auratus... that would make my day, are they much more expensive??


and can i get any plants or stuff from any garden centers? ive tried but when i ask if the plants are "frog safe" they look at me like im retarded... 



thx alot

-mike


-Water dragon (green) - Iguana (red) - Aussie Frilled Dragon - Roach colony - x5 ff cultures - D. auratus (blunbronze)

more soon to come


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

miked said:


> ya i just looked that old thread up.
> 
> and some guy at reptilia told me the "bumblebee" dendro would be ok with mine. but yea its a lucomelas.
> 
> ...





Baltimore Bryan said:


> Mixing two different color varieties (morphs) of the same species is also very bad because they will breed together usually and the "hybrid" frogs could get mixed in to the hobby and make it impossible to tell what locale a frog is.


Just to clear something up just incase the OP doesn't know what a morph is.
An example of a morph would be the camo auratus, the golden and the green & black auratus. So mixing those would be a no-no also. (don't worry, I'm not insulting your vocab, miked, I had no Idea what a morph was before was until a few months ago, and even when I joined here the meaning was made even more clear.)


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

miked said:


> any stuff i can get from any garden centers?


You can get some plants usually from garden centers, they will often have bromeliads, philodenrons, wandering jew, hoja, etc.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

miked said:


> if mark can get me a golden auratus... that would make my day, are they much more expensive??


I don't think he's working with them. You could shoot him an email, though.
They arn't commonly available in the hobby, so if he has them, they would be definately more expensive than a standard G&B.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

miked said:


> if mark can get me a golden auratus... that would make my day, are they much more expensive??


Yes, they are expensive and I don't see them very often in the hobby. Last time I saw them for sale they were $400 each...

Also, as Mapp explained, the different locales of the dart frogs are reffered to as "morphs" here. So "camo," "san felix," "Costa Rican," "golden," etc. would all be different morphs of D. auratus. Mixing morphs is also not a good thing. Where did you get your current auratus from?


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## bmore (May 11, 2010)

sean stewart has golden auratus listed on his website, $250, but im not sure he actually has any for sale you would have to email him. if you like the gold you should probably go with one of the phyllobates species. still not cheap but a lot less expensive and more common.


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

Mapp said:


> Just to clear something up just incase the OP doesn't know what a morph is.
> An example of a morph would be the camo auratus, the golden and the green & black auratus. So mixing those would be a no-no also. (don't worry, I'm not insulting your vocab, miked, I had no Idea what a morph was before was until a few months ago, and even when I joined here the meaning was made even more clear.)


soo i cant get the camo...  super blue and micro spot too ???

mark doesnt have much else bah!


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

miked said:


> soo i cant get the camo...  super blue and micro spot too ???


You can, if you would like to keep them in the same tank witout them directly interacting with eachother, do what Baltimore Bryan suggested, and make a split-tank. However, I only think it would only be practical to split it in half, so you would only be able to keep two morphs, but it's better than one. 
(then again, I have no idea the dimentions of a 75g, so I can't really give my opinion on that.)


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I know it seems weird at first, but, after you have a few tanks, each with their own morph of frog, it all makes sense. You come to love how different they each are.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

frogface said:


> I know it seems weird at first, but, after you have a few tanks, each with their own morph of frog, it all makes sense. You come to love how different they each are.


I agree, it may seem weird or boring at first but once you dedicate a tank to each morph I think you will enjoy it more. The frogs just tend to seem more comfortable, and the goal is trying to make it as natural as possible. "Camo" and "golden" would never see each other in the wild, and they would probably enjoy being with their own kind in a tank. It is less stressful on them. Some morphs are bigger, more shy, etc. they all have their own unique characteristics I personally like seeing them interact naturally.
And remember there are lots of great darts besides auratus if you wanted to try a whole new color/ species in another tank.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

miked said:


> well i figured completely diff species might be bad. is there anything red or yellow that can live in the same tank as this???
> 
> 
> any1 know a viv supply store in GTA/toronto, ontario?


Mike mixing color morphs is just as bad if not worse then mixing species because they will probably be more likely to interbreed. 

Mixing is a hugely controversial topic here, please do a search on mixing species and read the threads. There are tons of factors to consider that can effect the well being of your animals...and even our hobby as a whole.

It should not be attempted by someone new. And you will not win any friends here talking about mixing species when you are just starting out with darts. Even when you've had 10 years experience many here will still think you are being irresponsible if you mix. We are not one of the designer animal hobbies like leopard geckos, or like many of the snake hobbies. Hybrids of species and/or colormorphs are very very frowned upon and so are people who create them. 

Having said all that, welcome to the hobby and the board, many good people here willing to help you with all kinds of things, but there are a few things people will get very passionate about not doing, especially if you are new and mixing is one of them.

Good luck


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

wow i ask 1 question and i got the frogwars convention attacking me from all angles.. 
ill do my research and decide for myself... all i did was ask a question.. obviously im new to this and ive done research on everything up until now.


if mixing even in the same species.. cant be done at all... then i will give my auratus away.. cuz theres no point of wasting an awesome thing like i have built on one frog.

i built this for display as a priority. and the most common single frog is not too much of a display if you ask me.

I will do my research and i will find out excatly what can and cant be done... seeing as the main reason im hearing is "interbreeding ruining (your?) hobby" thats not a respectable reason to me..

i dont think anything i ever do will effect anyone on this site anyway. if it is DANGEROUS to the animals health... thats a different reason , one that i will actually listen to and respect. but cuz some tard is gunna cry just cuz i did something hes afraid to do... thats justa dam joke .

If it can be done properly, begginer or not , then it will be attempted at some point and time..... im not a stupid person and if im going to do something thats this touchy of a subject i will make sure i do it properly.



for now... please no more bitching... im keeping my 1 lonely frog by himself as i perfect the vivarium..

speaking of perfecting the viv...... i was wondering if waterfalls/features should be left running 24/7? i have mine for14hr timers with the lights but in the morning the weaker pump takes a good 2-3 min to kick in. 


p.s people ... theres no point arguing with someone about something they bring up as a first time thing... obviously they dont know much about that topic, hense the question! think ... dont stress yourselfs out.... i dont think anyone comes here to argue... its to gain info and knowledge based on experiance and research.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Auratus are cool frogs and you can put several in a tank that size. 

It can be dangerous to the frogs to mix them up in a tank, due to territorial issues and aggression.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh! I have an idea for your tank! 

Do a search for: Paludarium

This way you can use this awesome tank, keep your frog, and add other animals (fishy types, maybe crabs  ).


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

of course its common sense putting even the same ones together may fight, get stressed, stop eating ect.... but wouldnt loneliness and too large or a tank also cause problems...


put me in a room with my brother, ill beat him up steal his food and hog the tv remote.. but then well hang out, and get over it..

lock me in a house in the middle of nowhere... ill probably die of depression or go pyscho


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

You can put more frogs in. They just need to be the same kind of frog.


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

frogface said:


> Oh! I have an idea for your tank!
> 
> Do a search for: Paludarium
> 
> This way you can use this awesome tank, keep your frog, and add other animals (fishy types, maybe crabs  ).





i think cobalts auartus and lecomelas should be given a chance to live together... in peace and harmony. with proper food supply, hidding spots, and land territory ect. and they should be allowed to fight... wild frogs fight all the time.. eating breeding hiding fighting hunting its all part of the circle of life.. and if you goin to create a mini-world for a beautiful animal... it should be a world... not a jail.



but thats just my opinion...
thanks guys.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

The thing is, leucs and cobalts and auratus don't live together in nature. They are separated geographically. By putting them together, you are forcing them to live against nature.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Someone post some paludarium pics here, so he can see how cool they are. I can't do it from work.


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

if you have done your research you would not have been looking for " a red one and a yellow one". and if you want to be combative then you have found the right guys. these people here are as much about conservation of the species as they are about "keeping frogs".there are at least a thousand years of experience among all the members, they know of what they speak. if you want to succeed then you should listen to what they say. if you goal is to kill your frogs then do what you "know" is best.
its pretty simple.

AG


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

miked said:


> of course its common sense putting even the same ones together may fight, get stressed, stop eating ect.... but wouldnt loneliness and too large or a tank also cause problems...


Frogs do not get "lonely" like humans. They will be perfectly fine living on their own. If you want to add more frogs it would be best to add more of what you already have.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

I'm sorry but I'm starting to think you guys are wasting your time. Mixing as a beginner is bad and not really to be attempted and we have produced countless threads (lengthy ones at that) detailing this and he continues to to think otherwise. Sadly it will probably be at the expense of his frog but he most likely is gonna learn the hard way


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

miked said:


> i think cobalts auartus and lecomelas should be given a chance to live together... in peace and harmony. with proper food supply, hiding spots, and land territory ect. and they should be allowed to fight... wild frogs fight all the time..


Please don't interpret this as us coming off as harsh, we are just trying to give you good advice for the animal's sake. Short answer is this will not work. It doesn't happen in the wild, it is unnatural, and will cause stress. I have personally witnessed azureus (a type of tinctorius, just like cobalts) kill leucs and auratus even in a very large exhibit at the zoo. They should not be allowed to fight, all it does is cause unnecessary stress that leads to death. In the wild, frogs of the same type may fight over mates or territory, but they have plenty of space to flee and escape so they can recover. In a tank, they have nowhere to go and will be constantly stressed until death.
Again, we are not trying to sound like know-it-all's, but it's important you know what possible consequences of what you were planning to do. It's good that you are asking questions first and keep up the research.
Good luck!
Bryan


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

miked said:


> wow i ask 1 question and i got the frogwars convention attacking me from all angles..


Sorry if we come off as harsh, we're just trying to explain something that everyone has strong opinions on. Like I said, we're just doing it for the welfare of the frogs. 



> ill do my research and decide for myself... all i did was ask a question.. obviously im new to this and ive done research on everything up until now.


Most of that research can be done here, with the search function, and with the threads I've provided.
It's good to know you're taking the "responsible" approach and try to find more info on the subject, however, several froggers yelling at me not to do something might make me reconsider it.




> if mixing even in the same species.. cant be done at all... then i will give my auratus away.. cuz theres no point of wasting an awesome thing like i have built on one frog.


This is a little melo-dramatic, don't you think? Again, if you would like to keep more than one morph/species in a tank, go with what Baltimore Bryan suggested, and split it. You could even cover the glass using the GS/ cocofiber method if you want it to seem more natural.



> i built this for display as a priority. and the most common single frog is not too much of a display if you ask me.


It may seem that way, but when you fill that tank, it won't matter. You'll have a big tank, full of beautiful frogs, and you won't care if they're the same morph. 



> I will do my research and i will find out excatly what can and cant be done... seeing as the main reason im hearing is "interbreeding ruining (your?) hobby" thats not a respectable reason to me..


This seems a little selfish to me. Say you have a G&B auratus with a B&B auratus. Both from different locations, and would never meet in the wild.
Say they bred.
The offspring look like Green&black auratus, but it's still a hybrid. You sell the offspring, but the person who buys them is a newbie, and thinks it's a G&B. (assuming you label it honestly as a "hybrid") That newbie breeds the hybrid with a G&B, and sells those offspring as G&B, further messing with the bloodlines.



> i dont think anything i ever do will effect anyone on this site anyway.


 Explained above.


> if it is DANGEROUS to the animals health... thats a different reason , one that i will actually listen to and respect. but cuz some tard is gunna cry just cuz i did something hes afraid to do... thats justa dam joke .


Yes it is. Mixing a more agressive morph with a shier morph will most likely lead the shier morph to die. And insulting the board members is no way to make friends.



> f it can be done properly, begginer or not , then it will be attempted at some point and time..... im not a stupid person and if im going to do something thats this touchy of a subject i will make sure i do it properly.


First, yes, it can be done, but only with extremely large enclosures, and many years of experience with providing care for the animals you're mixing.
You are already not doing it properly by attempting to do it! Would I like a mixed tank? Of course! Would I try to make one? No! 


It seems like you just asked a question, and rejected all the answers because they were not what you wanted to hear. We're telling you this for a reason, not to just get you angry or enjoy your frogs any less.

If you don't want to do it for the sake of the hobby, do it in the best interest of the animals.

Again, sorry if I come off as harsh. 

-Matt


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

bah , ya i guess i had my heart set on one thing... and got shutdown completely. not only can i not have a different type... but cant even have a diff morph. So its very disapointing for me, especially after all this work ive done towards this.

i dont think having more of the same B&B d. auratus will do anything for me other than take more money.. i would rather spend that money on plants and things that are visually apealing. frogs will hide most of the time anyways.


and im not a evil person to do something to an animal knowing it will harm it. 
i started with frogs cuz they seem complicated and i like a challenge, just like why i chose the frilled dragon out of all the lizards, its the most emotional and difficult to raise, but i got him in bad health and now he is healthy and proud.

will i eventually attempt a "hybird" ... probably... will i sell any creatures i create??? never... hybird or not. 

i didnt take up this hobby to make money...lol
if i did, i would have opened up a store in GTA , scince there is nothing catering to frogs / plants or even a proper reptile store anywhere in southern ontario, other than the expo's.

basically.... i started this thread ... asking.. what i CAN do with my tank...

i know i need more plants.. but again ... theres nothing other than this mark guy whos never avaliable... 



so while im waiting for that guy to actually sell me anything.... theres a few other questions i had...

1. water features- on all the time / or only with lights?
2. what are some signs of a failing viv??... ex. how to tell if soil is water logged/water colour should it be clear or maroonish? / how to tell if plants are doing well. .... i want to catch anything going wrong before it happens. 
3. 1 x48" 6700k lighting rod light enough for lighting?? its on acrylic not glass..
4. Other than Mark (understory) is there any kind of terrarium supply store in GTA??? live plants / live moss particularly.. 


i can understand how some people are sensitive to certain topics.. But i am only looking for answers to questions i have to better the lives of the animals i keep.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

miked said:


> wow i ask 1 question and i got the frogwars convention attacking me from all angles..
> ill do my research and decide for myself... all i did was ask a question.. obviously im new to this and ive done research on everything up until now.


No one attacked you, I'm sorry you feel that way just because we gave you answers to your questions you didn't want to hear. In fact I'm impressed that everyone was this civil. I've seen other people get far harsher responses to this question. I'm sorry but I also think you need to do more research, as calling them "yellow and red ones" suggest other wise as do some of your other comments like frogs being lonely and what not. A decent amount of research would have already told you facts differing from some of the statements you've made about frogs.




miked said:


> if mixing even in the same species.. cant be done at all... then i will give my auratus away.. cuz theres no point of wasting an awesome thing like i have built on one frog.


Perhaps this would be the responsible thing to do. We gave you the answers we did because we are concerned about the well being of the frogs and we want you to have success with them. As others stated though auratus are generally considered a good group frog. Its quite enjoyable to watch a group of them interacting in our vivs as they might in the wild, and it makes a beautiful display. We try to avoid and discourage the notion that just because a frog is common or cheap it is somehow disposable. Most of us here believe they should be given the same level of care a 400 dollar frog would get.



miked said:


> i built this for display as a priority. and the most common single frog is not too much of a display if you ask me.


Another of your comments suggests that the animals health is your priority, and that is a sentiment we can all respect here. Most here are also interested in having a beautiful display, but there is no reason you can't have that and provide your frogs with a safe healthy environment. Having moss instead of leaf litter or less leaf litter in the front so you can have a moss lawn is a small compromise some poeple are willing to make so that a viv looks better and suits their tastes when the most leaf litter possible is probably whats absolutely best for the frogs. But that is a tiny compromise and you can still meet all the requirements for the frogs safety and well being after you've made it. Most people here feel that is not likely or even possible in a mixed species tank especially if the person doing it is new to keeping these animals. These people have years of experience and many work in the sciences, have kept and bred numerous other types of animals and some even work for zoos or aquariums and do field research on these animals in the wild. 

I mean I suppose its possible that you are some kind of frog whisperer that can talk to them and get them all to agree to live in peace in harmony without stressing each other out or out right killing each other, or at least spot signs of aggression that trained professionals can't or have difficulty with despite their years of experience with these animals but it isn't very likely. I think I can speak for many here when I say that several of your statements do not exactly inspire us with confidence. For you to come back at us and basically tell us to take a flying flip despite our knowledge and years of experience because we aren't telling you what you wanted to hear is somewhat insulting honestly. How would you feel if you had a great deal of knowledge about a subject and someome asked your advice on doing something related to it and what they wanted to do would could possibly end up damaging their property, themselves and others yet they seemed to dismiss your advice and the risks you point out in favor of their own selfishness when they know far less about the subject then you do? Would that not be frustrating to you? Would you not likely lower your opinion of them? Would you let them near your property to run their little experiment? Please consider our position here, and look beyond yourself to see how you may look to us. I can acknowledge how it may feel like we are jumping all over you just because you asked a simple question. But first you need to realize that in fact the situation around your question is far more complicated then you initially anticipated. Also you should understand that, offering an opinion that differs from yours or telling you things you don't want to hear concerning the well being of your animals or how others may view you in the hobby if you persist with your proposal is not "jumping all over you", its just stating the facts. 

I know that often people don't understand what they are getting into when they enter this hobby, it is very different then many of the other animal related hobbies. Frankly when I started I was like "Wow these people take this $#!* seriously!"...and sometimes I still think some people get a little carried away or are to judgmental towards others, but for the most part I've come to understand why many of us here are the way we are and that in fact most have very good reasons for being that way or holding to and stating the opinions they do. So Trust me Mike I understand where you are coming from, I came from the same place but where I'm at now is honestly much better...and more fulfilling  (And I'm still pretty easy going and much more a moderate compared to many here in my opinions and beliefs). 

There have been a few occasions where I have found myself proposing something that flies in the face of tradition, or stating opinions that may not agree with the so called experts. One example is the Desert viv I made. Very few people have attempted a naturalistic desert environment and some believe it can't be done. But I researched it, found an example of a guy who did it and seemed to have great success and did it with the species I was interested in keeping. And where people pointed out flaws or potential problems or asked how I planned to cope with this or that I answered them in as thoughtful a way as possible while trying to make it clear that ultimately despite my willingness to continue with the experiment I would make whatever changes were needed and in fact would give up and pull the animal and maybe even tear down the viv if I wasn't honestly 
confident it was a healthy environment. Even then though I was still taking a risk that some would not be comfortable with and I acknowledged and addressed that. You can see the threads here if you are interested http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/35591-desert-vivariums-4.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37379-glowing-desert-viv-finished.html

I ran out of money before finishing the project and have since put it on the back burner for now and moved on to other things, but will return to it. It may work, it may not. If it does it could help open up a new aspect to the vivarium hobby, but it isn't without risk either. Anyways I just offer up the example to show I understand your position.

Please understand our concern is the well being of your animals and our intentions here are to see that you have as much success with them and the hobby as possible. If your statements about being concerned with their welfare are true then you should respect the advice offered to you by more experienced keepers and probably defer to that experience on most cases instead of just doing what you want especially in cases when you probably don't have the necessary experience to truly evaluate the risks in what you propose. Hopefully in the desert viv threads I showed that I had a decent amount of experience in related subjects and at least showed I was capable of taking the risk in what most would consider a resonable and responsible way.



miked said:


> I will do my research and i will find out excatly what can and cant be done... seeing as the main reason im hearing is "interbreeding ruining (your?) hobby" thats not a respectable reason to me..


 Is one person mixing morphs likely to destroy the hobby? No...but you add to an already growing problem. Most of us here are concerned with conservation and the integrity of species/morphs. We think these frogs are fine the way nature made them and don't need "improvement" by man. When we go to purchase a blue azureus we want an azureus not a half luec/azureus hybrid even if it looks mostly like an azureus. Unfortunately there are many out there that would willingly and knowingly sell hybrids to uneducated or selfish hobbyists for their own profit. That probably isn't you, but why make it easier for other people to do so much wrong towards others? Is your own amusement that much more important to you then other peoples feelings or the animals well being?

Is it fair that we can't be sure what we are even buying because a few people decided to be selfish and produce unnatural animals for their own enjoyment or sale that find their way into they hobby and make it utterly confusing if not impossible to find a true azureus? Do you place your own enjoyment and/or greed that far above the animals well being and other people's right/desire to own a species that is as close to its natural counter part as possible? Its up to you if you want to be selfish and/or unethical but don't expect us to pat you on the back for it or turn a blind eye. Also we have pointed out serveral times how doing this is also a risk to the animal and not just us being able to find pure animals in the hobby. Please do not ignore those facts.




miked said:


> i dont think anything i ever do will effect anyone on this site anyway. if it is DANGEROUS to the animals health... thats a different reason , one that i will actually listen to and respect. but cuz some tard is gunna cry just cuz i did something hes afraid to do... thats justa dam joke .


 If you never release the frogs into the hobby then yes in theory what you do will have little to no effect on the hobby, the animals may be a different matter. But what if someone sees your frogs and their display and likes it so much they get into the hobby but doesn't do any research and you forget to inform them how introducing species/morph hybrids into the hobby could damage it for others or negatively effect the health of their frogs? Or what if God for bid you are killed in a car accident, who is going to see that your frogs are taken care of yet not released into the hobby? Will they know any better? Maybe they won't be able to find anyone they trust enough to see that they are taken care of without being bred or sold in the future. Should they just kill them? 

Is that what you would want to see happen, or would you rather they were released into the hobby to damage it and make it harder for others to find a fairly pure example of the species they'd like to keep. These situations are unlikely but they can and do occur, and it doesn't take much for serious damage to be done, damage that isn't easily fixed, in fact often is impossible to fix...and that damage adds up over time, and most of us here do not want to see that kind of damage occur in the hobby. I'm sorry Mike, but in this hobby just as in life our actions can, do and will effect others. Often in ways that are subtle and we might not be aware of at least initially. All we ask is that you acknowledge that and act in a reasonably responsible manner.



miked said:


> If it can be done properly, begginer or not , then it will be attempted at some point and time..... im not a stupid person and if im going to do something thats this touchy of a subject i will make sure i do it properly.


 Oh its been attempted and many have even succeeded, but most were probably experienced people with at least a year or 2 under their belts of keeping each species on its own and building multiple vivs that got better and better over time.

Do you know what signs of aggression to look for? Do you know that many signs of aggression are difficult if not impossible to identify? Do you know which frogs or other animals are best suited to this type of setup? Do you realize you will likely have to adjust the ratio of numbers and sexes of frogs multiple times to reduce aggression to a level that doesn't significantly effect the frogs? Do you have other vivs ready to put the spare animals into? Do you realize that may not even be possible with the animals you get? Do you understand how different species or morphs have different personality traits? (for example many blue auratus are much more shy then many green morphs, yet they are the same species). Do you understand which parts of the viv various species/morphs are more likely to use as opposed to others and what effect this should have determining what you mix together? Do you understand micro climates and how frogs will exploit them, or where they are likely to occur in your tank? Can you spot a frog thats being out competed for food by other frogs before it suffers a significant amount of stress? 

Those are just a few relevant questions I thought of off the top of my head. Do you understand there are likely to be many more to consider? Are you likely to figure all this out in the next few months only keeping 1 or a few frogs of only a few species or morphs? (And it did kinda sound like you intended to do this fairly soon, not years down the road). I'm not trying to make you feel stupid, suggest you aren't intelligent or insult you in anyway. I'm just simply trying to raise relevant questions for you and point out that there are many many things to consider. I want you to have the best idea possible of what you are getting you and your animals into.





miked said:


> for now... please no more bitching... im keeping my 1 lonely frog by himself as i perfect the vivarium..


Thats a good plan, but if you are still working on the viv often, constant disturbances can stress the frog out and impact its overall health. I have seen frogs basically go into a coma just from reaching my hand into a tank or being brushed with a finger to move them out of the way while I adjusted something in the tank. Stress can literally kill these animals in just a few minutes. Its not that common for the effect to be so dire in a healthy frog thats acclimated to its environment but even small stresses over time can impact their health and you should be aware of this and do what you can to minimize it.



miked said:


> speaking of perfecting the viv...... i was wondering if waterfalls/features should be left running 24/7? i have mine for14hr timers with the lights but in the morning the weaker pump takes a good 2-3 min to kick in.


I have personally found having my pumps on timers seems to increase their life span and the occasional restarting helps to prevent clogs, but often it can depend on the brand/type of pump and I'm sure others have had opposite experiences. If you start a thread about your specific model or search online you are likely to find answers more relevant to you.




miked said:


> p.s people ... theres no point arguing with someone about something they bring up as a first time thing... obviously they dont know much about that topic, hense the question! think ... dont stress yourselfs out.... i dont think anyone comes here to argue... its to gain info and knowledge based on experiance and research.


I don't see that we are arguing. We are simply pointing out and discussing the risks of what you proposed because YOU asked us to. I'm sorry that the answers you got were not what you wanted to hear but that doesn't make them irrelevant to the well being of the animals and your future success in the hobby. We simply informed you of the issues surrounding what you proposed and the general stances on those issues taken by many if not most responsible keepers in the hobby. We did so in a fairly civil and non confrontational way also. But when you approach a group of people concerned and passionate about the welfare of the animals they keep and propose to do things which may negatively effect the health of those animals its reasonable to expect responses, at least of few of which that are not warm and cuddly. Sorry.

Best of luck to you Mike, I and I'm sure most others here will be happy to help you or answer questions in the future. We just ask that you respect the members of the forum and the knowledge base we have and try to do a search or two on subjects that have likely already been explored in depth like species mixing. If you have trouble finding something or want to discuss an issue in more depth let us know, we are happy to help. Welcome to the forum


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

wow .

everyones responses are informative.. and i do appreciate the warnings..... but sounds more like everyones telling me to ******* than trying to help me.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

You really did make a kickass tank. You clearly have tank building skills. So, I'm going to push the paludarium idea on you a little more. Check out these threads:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/34536-my-paludarium-construction-step-step.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/34444-jungle-juwel-5.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/50660-75g-vert-planted-paludarium-journal.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/50849-hans-pietersmas-wonderful-tank.html

Hope that gives you some ideas. Do a search on paludarium for more posts.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

For a couple of gigantic examples  :

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...-new-wooden-hill-stream-tank-constr-jrnl.html


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

miked said:


> .....
> 
> will i eventually attempt a "hybird" ... probably...


this right here....*sighs*

why? 
you want to put two different morphs of frog from two different parts of the world forcibly together to see if they breed and make a cross?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

miked said:


> wow .
> 
> everyones responses are informative.. and i do appreciate the warnings..... but sounds more like everyones telling me to fuck off than trying to help me.


dave typed up a very informative response to you about everything you needed to know and THATS what you come back with?? he wasnt rude in any way! if i were you id be very grateful. nobody else was mean either, they just gave you their advice on how to take care of the frogs you want. why are you asking for advice if your going to ignore it, get defensive and tell us that what we are doing is selfish?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

miked said:


> bah , ya i guess i had my heart set on one thing... and got shutdown completely. not only can i not have a different type... but cant even have a diff morph. So its very disapointing for me, especially after all this work ive done towards this.
> 
> i dont think having more of the same B&B d. auratus will do anything for me other than take more money.. i would rather spend that money on plants and things that are visually apealing. frogs will hide most of the time anyways


First of all I wrote my last reply before seeing this one from you, I'm glad you are thinking a little harder about all of it and being more understanding. Also I think you'll find that green auratus are very bold and will often be in view especially in a well planted tank. You'll probably see 1 if not more at any given time...especially feeding time 



miked said:


> and im not a evil person to do something to an animal knowing it will harm it.
> i started with frogs cuz they seem complicated and i like a challenge, just like why i chose the frilled dragon out of all the lizards, its the most emotional and difficult to raise, but i got him in bad health and now he is healthy and proud.


 Good, awsome job with the frilled. I think you'll find there are many aspects of this hobby to dive into and get more interested in. There is an Art in making vivs, and you can do some truly beautiful things as you progress that moves them beyond a simple habitat for animals into a living piece of art. Also I was never really a plant guy till I got into this and I find myself more and more appreciative and interested in plants and have put hours and hours of research into suitable plants for vivs, iridescent plants, edible plants, and plants that flower blue all for the viv. I'm kinda experimental like that. 



miked said:


> will i eventually attempt a "hybird" ... probably... will i sell any creatures i create??? never... hybird or not.


I am somewhat disappointed to hear that, but it is your own choice. Please consider some of the points I raised about how frogs like that may enter the hobby in unexpected ways or what distasteful things may need to be done like euthanizing animals to prevent them entering the hobby. I'm glad you seem ethical enough though not to willing sell or release such animals into the hobby.



miked said:


> i didnt take up this hobby to make money...lol
> if i did, i would have opened up a store in GTA , scince there is nothing catering to frogs / plants or even a proper reptile store anywhere in southern ontario, other than the expo's.
> 
> basically.... i started this thread ... asking.. what i CAN do with my tank...
> ...


Glad you aren't in it for the money, and that you understand how some might be sensitive about certain topics. You may find as you progress though there are chances for the hobby to pay for itself at least in part. You may even find that you become sensitive to certain topics as your understanding of the hobby and the animals involved increases. 

As for your questions...

1. I usually leave them off, darts aren't usually active at night. Saves on power and can extend pump life and help prevent clogs.

2. generally you want to keep the water level below you substrate level a tiny bit at least. Should be fairly easy to tell just by looking. In a false bottom setup opposed to a drainage layer of gravel or leca balls its even easier to tell. It should not go above the drainage layer, but if it does for a short time its usually no big deal. If you flood it so bad its going to take weeks to evaporate off you can use a turkey baster or something to suck the excess water out either through the pond or by jamming it down into the soid, just cover the hole afterwards.

Brown water is from tannins in the soil and from wood/leaves it will not hurt the animals and in fact many think it lends a more natural appearance to the viv. As a very general rule plants getting to much light will often turn yellow or brown, sometimes loose leaves and be dry to the touch while those not getting enough tend to darken to absorb more light. Plants getting to much water can also loose leaves but will often be soft and/or moist to the touch and will wilt making them brown and soft instead of brown and hard.

You substrate will settle and even degrade over time. Its natural for it to settle some in the first few months. It tends to become finer and darker as this happens and it begins to degrade, of course the exact mix will determine the characteristics it exhibits as this happens. If your 4 inch layer of soil becomes only an inch or 2 deep in a year or so you might need to lift up the moss or whatever and add new soil to the layer then place the moss back over it. Using soil mixes that break down slowly can prevent or minimize this for a long time.

3. I can't see the exact type of fixture in the pic but it looks like you have adequate light. A good but very general rule of thumb is 2-3 watts per gallon depending on tank height. Taller tanks may need a little more, and you may need to move lights around so things on the background get enough or not to much light to grow properly.

4. I dont know. I suggest an online search or contacting other board members in your area/country. I believe there is also a Canadian dart forum too? There are several more suppliers of darts and probably supplies in Canada and many vendors will ship there with minimal extra expense.


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## poimandres (Mar 28, 2009)

miked said:


> wow .
> 
> everyones responses are informative.. and i do appreciate the warnings..... but sounds more like everyones telling me to fuck off than trying to help me.



Far from it, people are just legitimately concerned about the well being of frogs in captivity and the future of the hobby in general.

It is really a quite simple concept, you just don't take two distinct animals that would never cross paths in nature and throw them together in a small confined space. Nothing good will come from it (whether it be stress and territorial disputes or outcross/hybrids offspring). 

Since you are concerned with viewing your frogs, you should do all you can to make them as comfortable as possible. The safer they feel in their environment, the more you will see them. Seems counter intuitive, but by adding more plants, leaf litter, and hiding places, etc. you will actually encourage your frog to be more bold. Find it a mate of the same morph and your viewing pleasure will double...you will soon find out that there is nothing boring about keeping single species vivariums - far from it in fact as you will witness frog behavior as nature intended.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

thedude said:


> dave typed up a very informative response to you about everything you needed to know and THATS what you come back with?? he wasnt rude in any way! if i were you id be very grateful. nobody else was mean either, they just gave you their advice on how to take care of the frogs you want. why are you asking for advice if your going to ignore it, get defensive and tell us that what we are doing is selfish?


Thanks Dude  And Mike we really aren't...at least most of us aren't. There may be some that are of that opinion or might like to see that but I'm not one of them and I don't think most of us are. Unfortunately in any group of people if someone starts saying something that goes against the grain, good intentions or not and especially if they are new you are going to get some of that. We just have to deal with it best we can. 

We are all a community and doing your best to respect others will earn you more honor among your fellow froggers...heck you may wanna buy frogs from these people, or some may be willing to give you some...why make them mad if you don't have to


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

for those who are being nice , and trying to help... thank you.. and sorry for coming into this so uninformed... 

the rest... please dont bother saying anything.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

Well I hope I don't fall into the "rest" category! Lol

And if I do, I apologise if I've seemed a little mean or harsh. This thread shouldn't have turned into another mixing thread, with people screaming and insults flying. This was just a thread where a newbie was asking how he could better his tank. I'm sorry I can't answer your questions, as I'm still a newb myself. 
Good luck,
-Matt


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

and... thedude... 


my response may not be for the person you think it is for....


alot of people answered my question with rude and judgmental responses 

and you.... also made wrong assumtions, and snapped back at me like i stole your lunch money in high school.

i know the difference between constructive critisism, and internet rage...

im sure there has been millions of people who thought it would be really cool to have different frogs together... as i thought it would be cool to have a frilled dragon and a bearded dragon together...

which also is possible.. but not reccomended...and xtremely difficult to accomplish.



when someone asks a question... and doesnt get a straight answer.. or gets vague reasoning behind that answer.... 

usually they will question that person... which i did... i wasnt saying any of you are wrong... or that im smarter in any way.. i just wanted a 100% answer.

im a noob... and i know i am.. but im a fast learner and very passionate about animals, aswell as this "hobby".

if i get a straight informative answer.... i dont need to question it.

but when the answer comes with a "spit in ur face" attitude... i wont bother respecting , beleiving or even listening to the person again.


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

lets end this thread please... and i hope in the future when a noobie has a question about a touchy subject the members will be as informative and nice as dave and some others on this thread have been. 

im sure some people get scared out of the hobby due to ignorant people. But i think this is an awesome thing to get into... its a safe , educational, fun hobby for anyone to get into and i hope more people are drawn spending time on working with animals and the environment, instead of the many other bad things in life to spend time on.


if all the video game / drug addicts were into this instead, the world would be a much better place... lets try to be as welcoming as possible to new comers.

peace!!


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

There's some hobbiest's in southern Ontario that can hook you up with plants.

Shoot me a PM if interested.

Adding more B/B would be a good idea imo. The interaction between the frogs is interesting to say the least.

Then there's the breeding aspect. That's when the fun starts! 
Courting, Breeding, Eggs, Tads and finally froglets. 

I don't think you'd be dissapointed at all, with all the same species. Not at all. 

Tank looks great btw.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Mike,

I don't see anyone not being 'nice' in response to your posts. Maybe a little direct, yes, but nothing that's uncalled for. Everyone has been responding in the best interest of the frog that you've stated you want to care for properly. Please keep that in mind when posting in the future. 

Happy Frogging,

- Zach


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

I have to respond...because im a mixer...

i had a 33 gallon tall fully planted heavily with the following:
3-leucs
1-green and black
1-blue and black
3-tincs
1-patricia
3-azureus

they lived together in peace and harmony for 2 years (i had to sell because my daughter is in kidney failure)...and they slept together, hung out in the water together, never had one issue with any of them at any point during the 2 years they all lived together.

is this how they would live in the wild? no..but are they in the wild..no...they were born locally and dont know the difference. It showed me that regardless of all the "advice" and "documentation"...and those who wanted to critisize etc etc..it does work. I wouldnt breed them mind you..but these guys can live together in harmony.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting. Any offspring? If so, what happened to them?


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

no breeding..


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

pinkjello said:


> I have to respond...because im a mixer...
> 
> i had a 33 gallon tall fully planted heavily with the following:
> 3-leucs
> ...


12 frogs in a 33 gallon tank? That's less than three gallon per frog. While the 5-10 gallon per frog rule isn't always set in stone, I think that is way too crowded. Did they ever breed or wrestle that you saw? While they may have "lived together in peace an harmony," I have seen an adult female azureus kill both an auratus and another type of tinc (a cobalt) at an aquarium before when there were half as many frogs in a much, much larger enclosure. So, no, they can't always live in harmony together...

*Edit* 
I see your reply that there was no breeding, do you know if you had males and females of some of the different species? I would imagine they were too stressed with the lack of space to breed, but maybe you had all males or something.


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

no one was stressed..i was lucky enough to have a year at home, as I had my spine fused..so i sat and watched them for hours on end, every day - i had nothing else to do. I had males and females ..but i didnt have a habitat that was purely floor..the entire tank was full of bushy tall plants. They had ample room, enjoyed hopping around between all the plants, and like i said, they slept together in the huts AND out of the huts. If they were stressed im sure they would not have felt like doing that. There was never any pushing or shoving between any of them. I never saw any aggression. And yes, we know what aggression is. 

The fact that none were breeding does not always mean stress. So - in my case, they did live in harmony and it can be done. 

Im posting this because for those who bashed this person, and believe you are experts, even an expert doesnt know it all. I am not saying this will be the result when anyone else tries it..im just telling my story, to give those of you who dont believe a bit of insight that it CAN BE DONE


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

PS. Im not here to fight it out with anyone.... I have been lurking on this forum for awhile and i know that most here get very stressed out when someone comes on here talking about things that are considered a no no..

so just take this post from someone who cares to share their good experience with others...


peace!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

pinkjello said:


> Im posting this because for those who bashed this person, and believe you are experts, even an expert doesnt know it all.


NOBODY BASHED HIM. Also of course it CAN be done. but how often does it work? not very often. especially with that ridiculous amount of frogs in a tank, no matter if they are all the same or not. you got very lucky to have some very calm frogs.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

thedude said:


> NOBODY BASHED HIM. Also of course it CAN be done. but how often does it work? not very often. especially with that ridiculous amount of frogs in a tank, no matter if they are all the same or not. you got very lucky to have some very calm frogs.


this

i didnt see anyone bash the OP, he was given clear cut advice which he diasgreed with. 

posting info about a tank that happened to work with far more frogs in a much smaller space then they should have been isnt offering advice or hope to a beginner it is leading them on.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

pinkjello said:


> The fact that none were breeding does not always mean stress.


Sorry PJ

That's exactly what that means. They will not breed if stressed, or if conditions are not optimal.

The fact that they are coexisting does not mean that they are happy. They are simply surviving to the best of their ability.

To be honest, I feel sorry for mixers. You miss out on so much these frogs have to offer. You haven't seen breeding rituals. That in itself is pretty amazing. The males careing for eggs. We had a male Tinc that slept with them. Watching the males carry the young tads to water. The tads growing up and taking to land.

With that many frogs in a small tank, my guess would be that they are dwarfed too.

But, to each his/her own I guess...


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

like i said im not here to fight, im telling my story as to what experience i had and we are all here to share. I will share my positive experience with whomever is curious about mixing. If you wish to be disrespectful towards me then sobeit. Im not to worried about that. 

I am, however, fascinated by persons who are narrow minded and opinionated. This is what makes the world turn i guess


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I don't think anybody was rude here, it appeared that the OP was new and didn't have much experience and we gave him information on what he was planning to do. 
That said, I do believe mixed species viv's are possible, but not for a beginner. You really need to be an expert on caring for the animals you plan to mix, and that just doesn't happen by reading a care sheet online. Here is a very good thread on mixing, which I encourage you to read if you haven't yet:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

This thread talks about how not every part of the tank will be utilized by the animal, and different species have different requirements. In order to keep them together, you need to provide a very well thought out tank with different niches for the different species. For example, Tinctorius and ventrimaculatus could possibly live together in a large viv that has a ground section along with plenty of vertical space. The vents for the most part could stay in the upper parts of the viv, while the tincs would spend the majority of the time closer to the ground. Certainly they will have some contact with each other, but they will cross paths less than say tincs with terriblis. Now, I am NOT suggesting anybody try to mix tincs and vents! It's just an example to show that the viv needs niches for the different species to be in. Picking auratus, tincs, leucs, and terriblis for one tank would more likely be a poor choice because for the most part they all utilize the same area of the tank, and the more contact they have with one another the more stress occurs.

Additionally, "stress" isn't one single thing that you can tell right away. Just because you don't see them wrestling doesn't mean they are in harmony. A lot of times, a frog could seem fine one day and suddenly be dead the next. Not breeding can also be a sign that they aren't happy if all other conditions are good. Did you ever hear the males call? Frequently, submissive males will not call in the presence of a more dominant male because they are stressed, but you can never tell sometimes.

I'm not bashing anybody, just saying that trying to mix (especially frogs with similar behavior) is generally a bad idea. I recommend that you read the thread I referenced earlier. One last thing- Why would you want to mix? Do you want to just fit all the different frogs you can into a single tank instead of giving them each their own viv? Or is it that you just like the way all of the different colors look together? Whatever... To each his own.
Bryan


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## pinkjello (Jul 2, 2008)

I was thinking..to those who appose....I am starting to think that this is more for those who care to breed. If your intention is not to breed then mixing frogs that are closely related in living conditions works. 

Noobies have to do their homework of course, but to tell them no..is an out-right lie. Dont lie to noobies..its not fair to them. Thats what forums are for - to get ALL the information..not just info that you feel is appropriate. That also isnt fair.

So, heres some info i found..and thought i would share. This is out there for everyone to see. From three different sources. I could go on but i think its pretty apparent what the answer is to this question of mixing...


Certain species of poison dart frogs (Dendrobatidae) have been kept together successfully by some hobbyists. Avoid any species that could potentially produce hybrids, instead sticking to dart frogs from different genera such as Dendrobates tinctorius with Phyllobates bicolor.


There isn't much risk of creating hybrids between relatively unrelated species in the same genus, such as the thumbnails vs those more closely related to the tinctorius group like galactonotus, azureus and auratus. Their breeding habits are so totally different that even if the genetics were compatible, thumbnails and the tinctorius group wouldn't breed with each other. I think there is a special ethical concern about mixing the different morph varieties of the same specie. The D. tinctorius and D. auratus, D. pumilio in particular, have a number of named morphs or color variations that hail from different small endemic populations in the wild. It probably wouldn't be of as much concern if these populations weren't threatened in the wild and were plentiful in the hobby. But there is a tendency to want to preserve the original wild varieties as "pure" as possible in case of extinction in the wild. 

Q - Can I mix different species or morphs?

A - Yes and no. If the animals require the same conditions they can be housed together but problems may arise. One species may be more aggressive and out compete the other for food. Also, frogs of the same species can cross breed and this is frowned upon frog folks. If you are just starting, pick one species and devote your time and resources to it. Mixing species is NOT a good idea for beginners or when breeding the frogs is a priority.


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## miked (Jul 3, 2010)

ok wether anyone thinks or not.... 


to me... in my opinion... which im entitled to...

a few.... members were rude to me, misinterpreted , and assumed , and judged me.


thats my opinion... take it how you want...

i am somewhat new... most of my experience is with reptiles and enclosure contrustion, so yea ill have lots of questions... 


and when i get the first answer as a ignorant vauge answer and the only point they try to get across is that im .... this or that.... and not actually helping in any way... 

im not going to listen to / trust that person or the answer and i will further question to topic..

im done talking about this cuz its gotten out of hand...

but if any one wouldlike to help out on this questions feel free .. thanks 

whats the absolute best substrate combo??
this is ontop of a false bottom w/ etremely fine mesh


moss(spagnum?) then soil(coco / pete moss mix?) 

or coco husk then cocofiber/pete soil mix?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

pinkjello said:


> I was thinking..to those who appose....I am starting to think that this is more for those who care to breed. If your intention is not to breed then mixing frogs that are closely related in living conditions works.
> 
> Noobies have to do their homework of course, but to tell them no..is an out-right lie. Dont lie to noobies..its not fair to them. Thats what forums are for - to get ALL the information..not just info that you feel is appropriate. That also isnt fair.
> 
> ...


I agree that some people basically state what amounts to a lie when they just flat out say "No"....that why I sometimes chime in and try to explain the situation is more complicated then that. I think the people who say "No" have good intentions. They are just trying to discourage people from doing something that is risky to the animals, can and often does fail...Ending in broken hearts and dead animals. 

BTW its not just about breeding, its about stress, and some frogs out competing others and about 100 other factors to consider. As far as the stress thing goes even experts find it hard if not impossible to identify all the signs of stress. You had your tank running for 2 years before you sold it...but there could have been enough subtle stress occurring to cut the life span of some of those frogs in half, and even half their span is more then 5 years, so you were still a long ways off from seeing the true results of your handy work.

Few of us here will flat out argue that a mixed species tank is impossible, though some state their case a little to simply and it can be interpreted that way. The problem and the reason we discourage people is mostly because we don't want new people thinking this is a great idea with little risk to the animals. Its more risky then keeping single species/morph vivs for an experienced person...for a new person it amounts to something like Russian roulette. Its about degrees of risk. We discourage new people from taking HUGE degrees of risk because thats the responsible thing to do...the more experience you have the more leeway most of us are willing to give you, but there are limits even then. My guess is you exceeded the limits of what 90% of people here would give even some kind of frog god.

Just because something can be done or can work doesn't mean it is always a good idea. I can put roller skates on my dog and maybe it will take to them like a duck to water and start doing all kinds of cool tricks...but it could also break its leg in the first 30 seconds. A silly example true, but honestly its no more dramatic then a mixed species tank with almost 3 times as many frogs in it as most experienced keepers would be comfortable with. I personally wouldn't be comfortable putting that many frogs regardless of how awsome the viv was in anything less then 100-120 gallons if not more. I wouldn't mix that many species/morphs in any tank regardless of size, definitely not one that small. 

You took the risk of mixing morphs and species and compounded it by shoving them all into a tank that is at most no matter how heavily planted or how many ledges are on the back ground, good for a max of 6-8 frogs probably in most responsibly keepers opinions and even that may pushing it. I bet the majority would say 3-5 frogs max.

Did it work? For 2 years, ok great....you got lucky. You basically played Russian roulette with your animals. You didn't take a little risk, even a questionable risk, you took a HUGE risk. I can go get a revolver right now, put a bullet in the chamber and spin it...pull the trigger 5 times without spinning it again and have it work out all 5 of those times. Hell it might even be fun and life affirming, utterly exhilarating even if it is scary...but if I keep it up I'm eventually gonna blow my head off. 

Would it have continued to work? Maybe...but the whole thing could have fallen a part at any time, and with that many frogs crapping and living in close quarters the more time passed the more likely it was to fail probably. Now back to our Russian roulette game...Ok some dude comes a long and sees how much fun you're having and wants to play do you just tell him how great it is and hand the gun over? Please tell me you atleast explain to this guy how dangerous what you are doing is. 

Now if you sold that tank with all those frogs in it to some person, especially a new one...you basically just handed them a loaded gun and said "Ok there ya go...have fun"...I can only hope you explained to them what they were getting themselves into. If you didn't you were completely irresponsible. In the post from you I quoted you offered some warning...I hope the person who got the tank/frogs got a similar one at least.

Of course most people would argue that playing Russian roulette is pretty irresponsible in the first place. Is it wrong to play that game, or do what you did with those frogs and that viv? I can't say for sure, I'm not the moral authority but I'd bet my life (And it would be a lot safer bet then playing Russian roulette) that the vast majority of people here would say you were in the wrong. Does that make our opinion right? No, but it probably shows that odds are you were in the wrong. 

I'm probably considered one of the more moderate people here like I said, and even when its just my opinion that someone is in the wrong I usually won't say it outright because I generally find most situations are grey enough I don't feel It is my place. However in this case it is black and white enough in my opinion to state my disagreement outright. So consider the majority of this post me doing that. I'm not saying you are a horrible person that doesn't care about their animals....but I feel in this case you were highly irresponsible. My opinion may not matter to you but I state it all the same because it may mean something to someone else reading this...possibly considering attempting a similar game of Russian roulette and I don't wanna see anyone blow their head off.

You may think my dog on roller skates and Russian roulette examples are silly and/or overly dramatic but I feel they are on par with what you did and I'd be willing to put money on it that most here would feel similar.

Btw I'll also point out something regarding what you said about not mixing species/morphs that could breed....Every species/morph you had in that tank could have potentially bred with any other. So you went against that yourself. Even if you had no water in that tank and it was impossible for a tad to morph out, breeding causes a degree of stress to the animals and they could have been going through the motions or even laying infertile eggs which would have put them under some amount of undue stress.

Anyways I'm ok with you sharing your "good" experience, and I'm not here to fight with you either but I did feel like you crossed the line enough that it warranted something being said...even by me, who hardly ever will say such things...at most they are just implied sometimes, but I had to make an exception this time.

Sincerely,
Dave

P.S. Best wishes to you, your daughter and the rest of your family. Hope everything works out ok.


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