# PDF's eggs only 10% fertile rate.



## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Hi everyone i am new in breeding PDF and currently i am facing problem of my PDF which out of a batch of 7-8 eggs,i would only get 1-2 fertile eggs and even if its fertile some of them will turn moldy after a few days... what would you all recommend for better fertile eggs ?
Ohh.. i am currently dusting my pinhead with Repashy calcium ICB daily only 
Thks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What are your supplements? 

Ed


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> What are your supplements?
> 
> Ed


I am only using Repashy Calcium ICB daily dust onto pinheads.

Would this be enough?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Were these adults when you got them or are they frogs you've raised up to breeding size? 

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Crazy frog said:


> Hi everyone i am new in breeding PDF and currently i am facing problem of my PDF which out of a batch of 7-8 eggs,i would only get 1-2 fertile eggs and even if its fertile some of them will turn moldy after a few days... what would you all recommend for better fertile eggs ?
> Ohh.. i am currently dusting my pinhead with Repashy calcium ICB daily only
> Thks


is it their first few clutches?


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

It may take some time for them to start getting fertile egg clutches.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dunno if I missed this....but...

Species?


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> Were these adults when you got them or are they frogs you've raised up to breeding size?
> 
> Ed


I got them as adult from a guy who is giving up . I currently facing the same problem for my most of my pdf which the sp. Are yellow and black bumble bee,yellow+red and orange glac .
They have been laying eggs for like 3mths-4mths. But I have only 4 froglets and 4 tadpoles so far out of these few sp. of PDF that is with me.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

You only feed pinheads, you don't culture fruit flies at all?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If frogs are deficient in vitamin A in the form of retinly palmitate or retinoic acid and are actively breeding, it is hard for them to get enough vitamin A from the standard supplements. In these cases a source of dry vitamin A containing retinyl palmitate should be used (and different people and vets recommend different frequencies) anywhere from once a week to once a month. I personally supplement with it every 2 weeks. 

This is an example of the dry vitamin A people use Amazon.com: Solaray - Vitamin A Dry, 25000 IU, 60 capsules: Health & Personal Care. Remove from the gel capsle and then use a morter and pestle to grind it more finely so it will stick to the feeder insects.


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> If frogs are deficient in vitamin A in the form of retinly palmitate or retinoic acid and are actively breeding, it is hard for them to get enough vitamin A from the standard supplements. In these cases a source of dry vitamin A containing retinyl palmitate should be used (and different people and vets recommend different frequencies) anywhere from once a week to once a month. I personally supplement with it every 2 weeks.
> 
> This is an example of the dry vitamin A people use Amazon.com: Solaray - Vitamin A Dry, 25000 IU, 60 capsules: Health & Personal Care. Remove from the gel capsle and then use a morter and pestle to grind it more finely so it will stick to the feeder insects.


Ok...will look for human grade vitamin A to supplement every 2weeks to see if there is any improvement.


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> You only feed pinheads, you don't culture fruit flies at all?


At the moment i am only feeding pinheads as they seem easier to get as in my country there are not any pet shop that sells FF here and try shipping it over a few time to start the culture but it always turn out to be culturing mites...haha

Anyway will there be any issue if i feed pinheads alone?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Crazy frog said:


> At the moment i am only feeding pinheads as they seem easier to get as in my country there are not any pet shop that sells FF here and try shipping it over a few time to start the culture but it always turn out to be culturing mites...haha
> 
> Anyway will there be any issue if i feed pinheads alone?


 
No, you can use only pinheads without any trouble. I actually kept dendrobatids on crickets as thier sole diet for many years. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> No, you can use only pinheads without any trouble. I actually kept dendrobatids on crickets as thier sole diet for many years.
> 
> Ed


I was only thinking about the convenience and cost, but do the supps stay on the pinheads as long as the ff's or do they groom them off faster?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> I was only thinking about the convenience and cost, but do the supps stay on the pinheads as long as the ff's or do they groom them off faster?


 
According to an unpublished study done by Dr. Susan Donoghue (and referenced in the Nutrition chapter of Reptile Medicine and Surgery), fruit flies actually initially retain a greater amount of supplements, enough that there is a possibility of overdosing the animals that consume them. As I understand it, all of the supplements currently on the market were formulated to adjust the values of crickets not fruit flies. Fortunately, the nutritional differences are relatively minor. The rate of retention is actually dependent on how fine the supplements are when they are dusted onto the feeders and whether or not there was any clumping due to moisture or humidity. I have used some batches of supplements that were still visibly present after 15-18 hours on both crickets and fruit flies, while different batches of the same brand did not stay on the insects for more than a few hours. There was some information published on retention rates in Reptile Medicine and Surgery, and if I remember correctly off hand, most of the supplements are groomed off after 12 hours. 

Ed


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> According to an unpublished study done by Dr. Susan Donoghue (and referenced in the Nutrition chapter of Reptile Medicine and Surgery), fruit flies actually initially retain a greater amount of supplements, enough that there is a possibility of overdosing the animals that consume them. As I understand it, all of the supplements currently on the market were formulated to adjust the values of crickets not fruit flies. Fortunately, the nutritional differences are relatively minor. The rate of retention is actually dependent on how fine the supplements are when they are dusted onto the feeders and whether or not there was any clumping due to moisture or humidity. I have used some batches of supplements that were still visibly present after 15-18 hours on both crickets and fruit flies, while different batches of the same brand did not stay on the insects for more than a few hours. There was some information published on retention rates in Reptile Medicine and Surgery, and if I remember correctly off hand, most of the supplements are groomed off after 12 hours.
> 
> Ed


Hi i was doing some research on vitamin A and Repashy ICB and found these information on Repashy website saying that Repashy contains a proven level of Vitamin D-3, and a proven ratio of Vitamin D-3 to Calcium. It also contains *preformed Vitamin A at a 10:1 ratio of Vitamin A/ Vitamin D-3* which is essential to proper nutrition.Calcium plus also contains Beta Carotene in addition to preformed Vitamin A and is the only Reptile supplement available that contains both. 

It has been proven that preformed Vitamin A is required via supplementation for Reptiles in captivity. Beta Carotene can be converted by some species into Vitamin A, but it is in doubt that insectivores can accomplish this assimilation. There are many documented cases of Vitamin A deficiency that have been caused by supplements that only use Beta Carotene as a source of Vitamin A. Providing both sources at moderate levels is unique to the Superfoods line.The ratio of Vitamin A/D-3 is also very important and essential to proper nutrition. 

Supplementing a Vitamin powder separately from a Calcium/D-3 product allows for great error in the A/D-3 ratio because it is nearly impossible to get the a balance this way.
Calcium Plus ICB solves this ratio problem by including the correct ratio in one product, which eliminates the guesswork. We use only the highest and most stabilized forms of vitamins, which allows them to be used in a high mineral product without the degradation concerns that we had 20 years ago (which many people still think is a problem).

Certain species require, or are more sensitive to vitamin D supplementation than others. With a balanced ratio of calcium/phosphorous (calculated based on a dusted cricket) and vitamins which are balanced to these mineral levels, the guesswork is eliminated, and the question becomes how much to use. Most species will be just fine receiving insects dusted with Calcium Plus at every feeding, but this can be reduced to once, or a few time a week for sensitive species. The level of Vitamin D-3 used in the Calcium Plus is near ten times less than that of some popular products.

Having the proper ratio is the key. Too much calcium blocks and binds gut absorbtion, too much D-3 can lead to calcification of internal organs. With the balanced formula of the Calcium Plus, the only variable left is how often to use it.

It contains Three natural pigment enhancing ingredients. First is Haemotococcus Algae (Naturose), which is a source of natural Astaxanthan (Pink, Red and Orange Pigments). This is the carotenoid pigment that makes salmon flesh orange, and flamingos pink. In captivity, Flamingos would be white, and so would salmon flesh.. without supplementation such as the source we use here. We use marigold extract for natural Yellow Pigments.. this carotenod is used in poultry egg production to make nice yellow egg yolks. We also use the finest Spirulina Algae, which contains full spectrum carotenoid pigments.... This unique blend of pigment enhancing ingredients is sure to bring out the brightest colors in your herps... The orange in that Carrot Tail, and the Red in your Bearded Dragon. 

For additional supplementation, this unique color enhancing blend is available in a "pure" form in the product "SuperPig" which can be further added to this and other supplement products or diets.

Ingredients:

Micro fine mined Calcium Carbonate (3-5 micron average size) which is the finest grind available. Vitamin Premix (see analysis for deteais). Whey Protein Isolate (source of isolated protein). Hempseed Flour. Wheat Germ Meal, Brewers Yeast. Rose Hips Powder (source of natural vitamin C) Spirulina Algae (source of Beta Carotene). Haematococcus pluvialis algae (source of astaxanthan red pigments) Marigold Extract (source of yellow pigments). Probioic premix. Roseary Extract, Yucca Extract, Natural Mixed Tocopherols (as a preservative)

Analysis:

Calcium 18%
Phosphorous 0 %
Protein 10%
Fat 1%
Fiber 2%
Vitamin D-3 48,000 IU/KG
Vitamin A 480,000 IU/kg
Beta Carotene 1,000 mg/kg
Choline 12,000 mg/kg
Vitamin C 5,000 mg/kg
Vitamin E 2000 IU/kg
Vitamin B1 80 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 160 mg/kg
Vitamin B3 1,000 mg/kg
Vitamin B5 300 mg/kg
Vitmain B6 120 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 1 mg/kg
Vitamin K 60 mg/kg
Biotin 4mg/kg


Also would it be dangerous if overdosing of vitamin A to PDF , i understand over dosing is more dangerous than under dosing as it will kill the frogs.
I am showing the Ingredients list to check with whether the vitamins and A in Repashy is enough for PDF , if its not ..then i will proceed to look for human grade vitamin A. thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

See this thread to tell if it answers your questions 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements-5.html

Ed


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Ed said:


> See this thread to tell if it answers your questions
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements-5.html
> 
> Ed


Thanks for the great info on repashy supplementing ...by the way I am just still kind of worried about daily feeding pinheads that is dusted with repashy ICB to my PDF.will that be over dosing or it fine?


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

I can say this...I use Repashy Cal + ICB, and have still had issues with low viability.

However, several months ago, at Ed's suggestion, I started using human-grade retinyl palmitate supplements, twice a month. I get much higher viability, especially with the clutch laid within a few days of the supplement.

So I don't know what my issue is...are my frogs just perpetually deficient in vitamin A?

I dust with Repashy Cal + ICB at least 5 times a week.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

GregF said:


> I can say this...I use Repashy Cal + ICB, and have still had issues with low viability.
> 
> However, several months ago, at Ed's suggestion, I started using human-grade retinyl palmitate supplements, twice a month. I get much higher viability, especially with the clutch laid within a few days of the supplement.
> 
> ...


 
If your frogs have continued to breed then yes, they are chronically deficient. They are probably utilizing it as fast as they take it up. A break and continued supplementation would probably really help resolve the issue. 

Ed


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## GeorgiaB (Apr 23, 2009)

Sorry to bring up a semi-old thread but does anyone know if the human vitamin A should be replaces as often as other supplements or perhaps more often. I am assuming that vitamin A degrades over time but im not aware of the timeframe. And is the best way to store it in the fridge? Any answers would be great!

Thanks,
Georgia


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Hi guys, its been awhile since i posted, at the moment my frogs fertile rate had went up to 50% and i already had 30+tadpole from 2 breeding pair of leco.

1)But i would like to supplement them wih extra human grade vitamin A for better results but i only manage to find RETINOL ACETATE is that ok to use on PDF or RETINOL PALMITATE is better,safer?

2)Also i had some fertile egg together with some infertile egg which are moldy, will the mold spread across or Should i brush them away or just leave it next to the fertile eggs?

Anyway i had some of earlier batch of tadpoles morphed out yesterday and there are a few question :

3) Onces they fully absorbed its tail, how long will they wait before they start feeding?

4) For Leco froglets, will they be able to feed on newly hatched PINHEADS crickets?

Thanks


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