# Black Foot Orange Terribilis



## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

Hello everyone,

Just a little picture of one of the new frogs i got from UE.

Stunning orange coloration with awesome black foot look.

Enjoy


image url


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

nice!! share more pics! lol, are you able to sex any of yours?


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

These aren't Tesoros Blackfoots which from my reading and dealing with the eventual up coming shipment Tesoros is the only outlet for Blackfoots, although it does have nice coloration and does have that look.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

The orange terribilis that are in the hobby now sometimes throw different degrees of black feet. Out of the four that I have, one has black feet.








Hopefully you can make the feet out in this photo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

BTW that is a great looking frog you have there!


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## zaius (Feb 21, 2008)

Azurel said:


> These aren't Tesoros Blackfoots which from my reading and dealing with the eventual up coming shipment Tesoros is the only outlet for Blackfoots, although it does have nice coloration and does have that look.


These are the Blackfoots from Tesoros.
UE has sold a few of these Terribilis here in Canada.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

Great frog indeed.

but somehow doesnt look like anything near the pics from UE and Tesoros.











or are there several color-levels inside this morph group?


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

According to UE the Tesoros terribs have varying degrees of black on the feet. The Oranges are supposed to have more on average, the yellows less.

Pics of one or two specimens are by no means representative of what every frog will look like (see the high orange varadero on the site vs. what most of the varadero in the hobby look like).


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Well that's a pretty huge difference in appearance if that's the case.

Varadero look close enough to most pics ... 

But if the Blackfoots are gonna look more like what was posted by the OP compared to the other pic;
I'm calling UE right now & asking for my money back.

(No offense to the OP), but I didn't spend $1000 on frogs to get something that looks like that ... i could've just bought standard Oranges & saved myself quite a bit of money. (Not to mention alot of disappointment)


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

TerraFerma said:


> According to UE the Tesoros terribs have varying degrees of black on the feet. The Oranges are supposed to have more on average, the yellows less.
> 
> Pics of one or two specimens are by no means representative of what every frog will look like (see the high orange varadero on the site vs. what most of the varadero in the hobby look like).


I can't find the email at the moment but from past communications and things I have seen posted the Tesoros were no less then 50% to 75% black feet and legs which said the higher coverage looked like boots....So if they look like the typical orange terribilis with dirty feet there will be some disappointed people.... 

Still beautiful animals though.....


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

definitely!


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## LoganR (Oct 25, 2013)

While that is a pretty frog, it is not even close to the expectations of many regarding the Tesoros imports. The colors may develop more as the frog matures, but it is a long way off from the Tesoros photo.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

I find it distressing that there is negativity after seeing just a single frog. We don't even know the age of this individual or the tendencies of this population. As was already stated, maybe it needs more time. Many frogs need years before they look their best. My reaction when I first saw the photo, was that I thought it was nice that there was variation in the group coming in. Possibly due to them being closer to wild than what we have in captivity now.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Gamble said:


> Well that's a pretty huge difference in appearance if that's the case.
> 
> Varadero look close enough to most pics ...
> 
> ...


$ 1,000 for frog? Is this a joke?


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

rigel10 said:


> $ 1,000 for frog? Is this a joke?


They were around $200 a piece.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Manuran said:


> I find it distressing that there is so much negativity after seeing just a single frog. We don't even know the age of this individual or the tendencies of this population. As was already stated, maybe it needs more time. Many frogs need years before they look their best. My reaction when I first saw the photo, was that I thought it was nice that there was variation in the group coming in. Possibly due to them being closer to wild than what we have in captivity now.


I don't see it as negativity but unknown expectaions. What are those to expect to get. I wouldn't doubt that there are color changes as they get older and become more like the released picture then I think all would be fine. I am also sure of there being variation as with most populations. 

Part of it is unknown and people wondering if they will get what the represenitive picture shows. Lets be honest the pumpkin orange with the full black feet and or boots is an awesome animal and the reason people wanted them because the typical color morph doesn't have that....

I was just stating that if they turn out to be more like the typical orange terribilis that has dirty feet there will be quite a few disappointed people...


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

rigel10 said:


> $ 1,000 for frog? Is this a joke?


That would be a multiple frog purchase....


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

mongo77 said:


> They were around $200 a piece.


they where less than that. maybe if you add the additional fees then yes. 
they were cheaper than what I expected. and the price I don't remember.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

pa.walt said:


> they where less than that. maybe if you add the additional fees then yes.
> they were cheaper than what I expected. and the price I don't remember.


They were $189 through UE....


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## LoganR (Oct 25, 2013)

Manuran,

Sorry is my post sounded too negative. I thought long and hard about ordering 5 of these to support this effort, but in the end decided that, for me personally, the black foot vs orange foot just wasn't a big enough difference to jump in now. Maybe after Gamble produces his first 1000 offspring....

I had and still have high hopes for what Tesoros de Colombia is doing. I am also pretty darn sure UE has been in business long enough to have thoroughly vetted Tesoros before partnering with them; so, I have no doubt that some of the imported frogs will be stunning - as adults.

I haven't raised _terriblis_; so, I don't know how fast they color up. From what I did read, I suspect the imports are under 1 year in age; so they have a long way to go before sexual maturity.

So here's to looking forward to seeing some gorgeous orange, black footed _terriblis _in the US hobby and knowing that they were 100% legally imported.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

As others have said, you can't draw a conclusion from one frog. 

I'd also like to point out that these are the first legal terribilis to come out of Colombia in over a decade, and the first ever that have been captive bred. This is a big deal. It's unfortunate how much people have already complained about these projects our hobby Is getting. People complained that the first sylvatica was a naturally occurring hybrid population, and that truncatus were the first Colombian imports. It seems like the hobby is becoming ungrateful slowly.

This isn't directed at any one person by the way. Just what I've seen talked about around here and DD.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

thedude said:


> As others have said, you can't draw a conclusion from one frog.
> 
> I'd also like to point out that these are the first legal terribilis to come out of Colombia in over a decade, and the first ever that have been captive bred. This is a big deal. It's unfortunate how much people have already complained about these projects our hobby Is getting. People complained that the first sylvatica was a naturally occurring hybrid population, and that truncatus were the first Colombian imports. It seems like the hobby is becoming ungrateful slowly.
> 
> This isn't directed at any one person by the way. Just what I've seen talked about around here and DD.


Adam ... 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're beautiful frogs.
My point is, I've never really had an interest in Terribilis.
That all changed when I saw the pic that depicted these Blackfoots.
I thought they were gorgeous & i immediately placed my order for them. I placed that order due to the picture.

So if that is not what they are going to look like, I have to be honest ... it's disappointing.
I could've saved myself a bunch of money.

BUT ... let's not get too preemptive. 
A friend & myself have sent out some communication to UE & Ivan to get some clarification on what we all should expect.
Once they have responded ... Then I & others will be able to make our decisions.
I'd be a fool to make a decision like that off of one picture.

I get what you're saying about them being the 1st new blood ... etc ... and I don't disagree. If I had money to toss around without consequence I'd be less concerned.
But considering most of us aren't rich, we don't have the luxury to not be picky about our purchases.

I'm sure you can understand that.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

thedude said:


> As others have said, you can't draw a conclusion from one frog.
> 
> I'd also like to point out that these are the first legal terribilis to come out of Colombia in over a decade, and the first ever that have been captive bred. This is a big deal. It's unfortunate how much people have already complained about these projects our hobby Is getting. People complained that the first sylvatica was a naturally occurring hybrid population, and that truncatus were the first Colombian imports. It seems like the hobby is becoming ungrateful slowly.
> 
> This isn't directed at any one person by the way. Just what I've seen talked about around here and DD.


I haven't complained and I know it wasn't aimed at any peticular person. I fully support these projects and have stated so in other post. My concern is that people are going to be disappointed and then what? It is true that you cannot make a desicion based on one frog much less a younger frog....

So in the end I think alot of it is looking for a clearer picture of the situation. With the US import being in a delay which leaves people guessing....Then you see a few trickles of info like this thread( no offense to the OP) Which only makes people guess especially when you go back and look at the original picture....

As far as DD we can leave any of that over there.


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## Bunsincunsin (Feb 11, 2008)

Manuran said:


> I find it distressing that there is negativity after seeing just a single frog. We don't even know the age of this individual or the tendencies of this population. As was already stated, maybe it needs more time. Many frogs need years before they look their best. My reaction when I first saw the photo, was that I thought it was nice that there was variation in the group coming in. Possibly due to them being closer to wild than what we have in captivity now.


I agree; I think part of this just goes to show that people may be interested in these frogs not because they are a new source of genetics for this particular species, or because they are a sustainable source of legally-imported frogs but, rather, because they are perceived as a "new, gotta-have-it" morph that no one else has - perhaps as a perceived, and acquired, status?

I may be jumping to conclusions here, and that might not be fair; I do understand the expectations of those who have put a deposit down based solely on the photos they have been presented...but at the same time, shouldn't you be proud to support an organization that can responsibly offer a unique opportunity for the obtainment of sustainably produced captive bred frogs who can, additionally, directly support the conservation of their native species?

I agree that we should all be keeping what we like, and I would hope that those who have contemplated investing in the frogs - that are the direct result of projects such as these - are choosing to do so because they truly have an interest in not only the frog itself (i.e. its aesthetics) but also its behavior, natural history and whatever else may come along with it - in this case the additional characteristics previously mentioned (sustainability, captive bred, etc.).

And, perhaps there should be a perceived status that comes along with these frogs, but don't make it a status that says "I'm better than you because I have the _money_ to support such an organization" but rather a status that directly correlates to the _values_ of that person who _chooses_ to support that organization...

This isn't directed at anyone, just thoughts...


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

Hello everybody,

Just to clarify some statements, I think it was azurel stating that they weren't black foot terribs. They are and come from Understory enterprises. I would not have specified if they weren't. Secondly, yes they do differ from tesoros picture, but hey how many of you have cobalts, azureus, varaderos etc. that are identical? I guess not many.

In any case I am so happy to have acquired these frogs they are simply stunning.

My group consists of a trio but I cannot clearly identify sexes for now as they are about 6 months old.

They cost 200$ here (canada) and fullfilled all my expectations. As always, UE works hard with local groups to be able to bring us new frogs in the hobby.

I will post better pictures in a bit as I am a bit dissapointed by what some have said about color and legs and what not.... 

If you are looking for the exact same one as the tesoros pictures, you just have to buy them and breed them and eventually you will get many that are pitch orange with 80% defined black feet. That's the beauty of nature, diversity not perfection....

Hope some of you are impatient to see more pictures.

Rani


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

[img=http://s23.postimg.org/md7265po7/image.jpg]


photo hosting sites


picture uploading


image


photo share

Keep in mind those were quick pictures taken with iphone, I lent my macro lens to a friend so as soon as i get it back i will post nicer pictures...

For those that can enjoy, enjoy!


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

That second pick looks pretty much like the one people saw when these were first advertised. Very nice!!


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Those look really good....


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Simply beautiful. Great frogs!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gamble said:


> Adam ...
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they're beautiful frogs.
> My point is, I've never really had an interest in Terribilis.
> ...



I understand what you're saying, and that is all fine and understandable. Your first reaction to the photo was a bit different though. Either way I was talking about the hobby as a whole as of recently. I suppose I might jump the gun too if I suddenly thought I had wasted a grand.

Those terribilis do look awesome though. Wish I had the funds for them but other frogs took precedent this time.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

BTW who takes a picture of the ugliest frog they have to represent what they are selling? Either it is the exact frogs are a representation that happens to look really good, I think we all work that way. Terribilis are also some of the slowest frogs to maturity, so seeing them in their adult grandeur is a 2 year wait, somewhat like the odd Auratus morphs that literally look like nothing until they become adults. Great project, would love to see some of the Auro's if they have been distributed north of the border as well.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Just wondering do these frogs come with locality data of any sort?


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

They look great! Im patiently waiting for a group of the yellow Black Foots myself.. Im not sure if they will make it in before winter though, as there has been a delay in the group my order was placed in..


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

how to use print screen

enjoy


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Nice pic, but I'm a little confused about the relevance of the link


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

What's with the ad under your photo? Did you put that there or have the evil spammers found another way harrass us?


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## SCS1014 (Feb 16, 2010)

It looks like a female bicolor I used to have.


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

I didnt put any link to an add myself... I guess it came with the website!

I absolutely love these frogs... what a strong caracter!

Rani


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

dendrorani said:


> I didnt put any link to an add myself... I guess it came with the website!
> 
> I absolutely love these frogs... what a strong caracter!
> 
> Rani


They look great....makes me more excited to get mine.....


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I kinda feel some of these frogs were misrepresented...Blackfoot and yellow terribilis. The pics seemed to show one thing but with further questioning find another to be the case. People who buy based on the picture aren't necessarily going to get what they thought they would. Would be nice is multiple pics better representing the possibilities were shown up front and not only disclosed to those who asked.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

I disagree with what Greg wrote. I think these frogs represent what is offered. One picture is not representative of any group, and that should be pretty well understood by anyone familiar with frogs.
Furthermore, if you are purchasing these frogs based solely on what you have seen in one single photo, you are completely missing the point of what these frogs are. You are better off buying frogs from the old lines of dubious origin and save yourself some money, and save this project from negative comments. 
If my orange black-footed terribilis come in pale yellow, with pale yellow feet, as long as they are healthy, I will be proud to own them because of what they represent.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I'm not bashing the project. Just saying say for the yellow auratus, would have been nice to get clarification from tesoros themselves about the true colors of the frogs as opposed to hearing it second hand on the forum. More clarity from the source on something new would be nice.


And actually as far as terribilis go I don't believe there is that much variation amongst the morphs so if these new ones have it, again it would be nice to have had that cleared up from them. And maybe they did post it on the website, I haven't checked in a while.


And for clarification I am not ordering these frogs. I did get yellow truncatus and all 6 look next to identical. I am familiar with frogs and some being variable but not all are especially to the extent seen with the auratus and the black foots not necessarily having black feet. With 50 tanks of frogs, thank you for saying I am unfamiliar with these things though.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I kinda feel some of these frogs were misrepresented...Blackfoot and yellow terribilis. The pics seemed to show one thing but with further questioning find another to be the case. People who buy based on the picture aren't necessarily going to get what they thought they would. Would be nice is multiple pics better representing the possibilities were shown up front and not only disclosed to those who asked.


This post was meant to say yellow auratus not terribilis.

And I know we have a couple who feel one pic was sufficient for a variable group of frogs but I would imagine there are plenty others who agree more pics would have been nice.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Greg if you have 50 tanks of frogs there has to be a ton of variation in what you keep, also the letter I got from Understory describing these frogs told me exactly about the variability and that some would be solid colored but in the orange morph there was a greater tendency of black footed individuals. Saying something was misrepresented when really only 1 picture circulated with little to no other descriptive information coming out other than at least to me the Understory comments which told me they could be solid colored is not a misrepresentation. This is a new morph and the first to be commercially exported legally, no reason to be anything but appreciative. You bought the Truncs so I can tell you are on board but again we are seeing the first pics of what 3 or 4 frogs? I am interested to see when 40 or 50 come in how the variability stacks up. I don't know if Black Jungle gave the same description to their potential customers or not but UE did a good job of telling me and I assume everyone else of what to expect if you order these frogs.
I agree that Tesoros should be offering up more info as to locality and a putting up 7 or 8 photos of each frog they intend to export is certainly something they are lacking in. Hopefully they will offer the hobby more information as this project expands, I think it would greatly help their efforts to stay afloat.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yes that last section of your comments is what I'm meaning. More info or pics directly from them would have cleared up and possibly avoided a few discussions on the forum about the frogs. Some frogs taken next to each other so lighting and camera is all equivalent.

Misrepresented May have been a strong word as clearly the pic did represent the frog....but possibly under represented the frog may have been a better choice. Under represented the variations.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't see why UE / tessoros don't just release more pictures. I personally only buy captive bred but when I do I request pictures of the exact individuals and select the ones I want. Now they may not want to do that but if the farm that is claimed exists it really can't be that hard to take pictures of 5-10 frogs. 1 the best frog, which we probably already have a picture of, 2 - the worst frog, and 3 a handful of pictures of the average frogs. 

Now to the real point, it is the buyers fault, because ultimately the decision to buy is up to the buyer and sellers react to buyers desires. If people made sure to ask for 5-10 pictures all the time, then most importers and breeders would just make sure they had that on hand anyway. It would be standard practice.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Lets remember what Tesoros de Colombia is. They are working very hard to be able to supply us with sustainable, legal, captive bred frogs from Colombia. A feat that has never been done before. They are not hobbyists that purchased frogs last year, bred them in their basement and are now starting a business to pay for fruit flies and spare cash. This project is so much more than a simple frog business, and should be nurtured accordingly. In my opinion the business plan is crazy, but I love it! and they are getting it done.

*Tesoros de Colombia is bad at marketing*. They do not supply their potential customers much information. They are however doing research and supplying Colombia a great deal of information in order to get this done. This project is not like getting a permit to build a deck in your yard. You run to the town hall on your lunch break, pay the fee and you have a permit. This is work that has required a great deal of time, money and dedication to accomplish. I agree, larger amount of information would be beneficial, and I will work to get more information and post it when I can.
*Tesoros de Colombia is the world's greatest exporter of Colombian frogs.* These animals that are now and may become available are the only ones of their kind. WIKIRI and some work being done in Costa Rica are their only peers.

I am not asking that we give Tesoros de Colombia free reign to do and say whatever they want without consequence. Not at all. Just like anyone else, if they are doing something deceitful or malicious we should call it out. What I am asking is that people don't carelessly toss out terms like "misrepresented" without really giving it thought. I don't think people understand that these negative statements can be very damaging to public opinion. I also don't think people understand the work that has gone into this and the work still being done, all without making any money right now. They are getting the feeling that the hobby does not care about their efforts and these types of baseless statements are taking their toll. I encourage people to continue the discussion and do not want anyone's thoughts or opinions censored. 
Tesoros de Colombia is not your average business, and perhaps the discussion should represent that.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

While misrepresent could have been strong I don't feel it was carelessly used or without base to it. If they call a frog a black foot, show pics of a frog with black feet, then send frogs without, it is misrepresented. What we got from third parties was that it will be common for them to not have black feet. So why not disclose this directly or share pics as well. Doing so would have avoided these discussions. But while you feel I am using strong words against them that are out of line, I really don't think they are. For some reason you jumped in when I spoke though....not the others that expressed their thoughts. Noticing a trend with that like I am not able to have an opinion contrary to yours.

Though I feel based on your post you partially agree that they could market this better. You say better, I say more accurately. So not sure why you have such strong focus on my text when we are saying similar things. And I still feel you think I am against them and in no way am I. Just simply think some extra time and effort from them directly could go a long way. A few extra pics, some written text....I feel you would agree with that if I read what you wrote correctly.


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## dendrorani (Jan 30, 2009)

On another note, I wanted to tell you guys that for a first phyllobates i own, I simply love their personality. Very aggressive towards food even when I present them with half inch crickets!

Can't wait to watch them grow and have them breed like crazy...


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

Sherman said:


> *Tesoros de Colombia is bad at marketing*. They do not supply their potential customers much information. They are however doing research and supplying Colombia a great deal of information in order to get this done. This project is not like getting a permit to build a deck in your yard. You run to the town hall on your lunch break, pay the fee and you have a permit. This is work that has required a great deal of time, money and dedication to accomplish. I agree, larger amount of information would be beneficial, and I will work to get more information and post it when I can.


Indeed. Would be great if they could open up the kimono a bit; give folks a broader representation of what is going on what everything looks like (aside from one or two specimens)


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Although I would love to add some of these to my tanks next year.....I will hold out for some large oophaga. I think that is what MANY of us are really waiting for from Tesoros.

I feel these Terribilis are a terrific bargain. They are sub-adult to adult, fat, healthy and from a reputable source. That being said, I think many vendors show pictures of their BEST LOOKING animal, not necessarily one that is most representative of the rest of their stock. Yes.....I find that misleading, absent some sort of written disclosure that states not all animals will look %100 like this. I think the best bussiness practice would be to show a range or spectrum of frogs, maybe 5-8 pics to give a better idea.

I think the OP has some excellent looking frogs. I'm not sure if I'm remembering correctly or not, but I believe that a LARGE amount, if not all terribilis and Bicolor have been hybridized over the last 3 decades for a variety of reasons. These new imports (if hybridization is true) represent a new chance to keep the species clean and pure.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Beautiful animal! 
I wouldnt be surprised if there is a bit of variation in the intensity of colors, amount of black on the feet, etc... between individuals. 
Look at the patter variances on leucs and auratus. How about the intensity of red and amount of blue on the legs of Blue Jeans pumilio. Or in fact the intensity of colors, patterns, and leg coloration on most pumilio morphs. Dendrobates tinctorius have an amazing amount of variability in a single morph. 

Also note there are slightly variances in our current P. terribilis morphs in the hobby. I havent seen overly drastic variation but there's still variation. That said, Ive seen a bizarre brown frog come from Orange parents in another hobbiest's collection.

Nice frogs. I hope they do well for you!


Todd


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

That is comparing a lot of non phyllobates frogs to these. Most phyllobates seem to not have much variation from what I have seen. Slight different hues with the terribilis. And apparently different degrees of black with these guys. I don't think comparing variability in auratus patterns to these really works. Many phyllobAtes don't have patterns....mostly solid or stripes.

Looking forward to seeing some more pics of the tesoros frogs. Hoping someone ordered some aurotaenia to share pics of. Yes spelled wrong but I'm not fixing it on this phone.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

I do see your point. And you are correct that I definitely didnt pick the best way to express my point. 

I had wrote out long explanation of my point. But I decided not to post it. I didnt want to hijack the thread any further. 

To the OP. Again the frog looks great and Im sure I speak for most of us when I say. Cant wait to see updates on these beauties! And please, post pics of the other individuals!


Todd


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

USA shipment tentatively due to arrive December 10th.
I will not hold my breath, but I am getting excited.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

pdfCrazy said:


> Although I would love to add some of these to my tanks next year.....I will hold out for some large oophaga. I think that is what MANY of us are really waiting for from Tesoros.


The trouble is if not enough people support their current ventures, the large obligates may not happen.

BTW - I thought you sold off your collection and were taking a break? If that didn't happen, GREAT!


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> The trouble is if not enough people support their current ventures, the large obligates may not happen.
> 
> BTW - I thought you sold off your collection and were taking a break? If that didn't happen, GREAT!


Oh, it definetly happend. needed financing for a move....I'm essentially frogless right now. I need to move all my tanks to my new place (25 tanks) before I can start reaquiring. As has been mentioned previously about Tesoros....I think they made a big mistake in picking frogs that are already currently established, cheap, and not really at the top of anyones list to aquire. I think Truncs and Terriblis would have been excellent additions down the road though, amongst others. But, if you need you need immediate cash-flow for your company, you dont do your grand opening with stuff in little demand. 

Does anyone know all the dart species from Colombia? I know theres a # of fairly recently described Ranitomeya species in addition to the Bicolor, histos, lehmanii, Truncs, auratus, (rumored Leucs), Aurotaenia, etc.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

pdfCrazy said:


> Oh, it definetly happend. needed financing for a move....I'm essentially frogless right now. I need to move all my tanks to my new place (25 tanks) before I can start reaquiring. As has been mentioned previously about Tesoros....I think they made a big mistake in picking frogs that are already currently established, cheap, and not really at the top of anyones list to aquire. I think Truncs and Terriblis would have been excellent additions down the road though, amongst others. But, if you need you need immediate cash-flow for your company, you dont do your grand opening with stuff in little demand.
> 
> Does anyone know all the dart species from Colombia? I know theres a # of fairly recently described Ranitomeya species in addition to the Bicolor, histos, lehmanii, Truncs, auratus, (rumored Leucs), Aurotaenia, etc.



The problem with that is they didn't choose to bring these frogs in first, they are the only ones the Colombian government would give them permits for.

There are quite a few andinobates that would be neat to see eventually. Bombetes, virolensis, viridis, fulgurites, minuta, tolimense, etc.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

You also have to remember that many of the Andinobates are from higher elevation and have a small clutch size. Two things which I'm sure would add to the difficulty of producing them.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Sherman said:


> USA shipment tentatively due to arrive December 10th.
> I will not hold my breath, but I am getting excited.


I really hope they hold off till spring....I would rather get them in better temps then risk shipping in these temps here in Michigan....

Can't toget them but not enough to risk it.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

pdfCrazy said:


> As has been mentioned previously about Tesoros....I think they made a big mistake in picking frogs that are already currently established, cheap, and not really at the top of anyones list to aquire. I think Truncs and Terriblis would have been excellent additions down the road though, amongst others. But, if you need you need immediate cash-flow for your company, you dont do your grand opening with stuff in little demand.


As also mentioned previously, this was not a choice. These are the first frogs that the Colombian government allowed to be exported.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Why can't Tesoros tell people the location of the frog instead of using a name like "yellow" or "black foot"? Have they stated why? I'm not looking for someone to tell me what they THINK the reason is. Doing such would be much more helpful for hobbyists and it would reduce criticism.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> Why can't Tesoros tell people the location of the frog instead of using a name like "yellow" or "black foot"? Have they stated why? I'm not looking for someone to tell me what they THINK the reason is. Doing such would be much more helpful for hobbyists and it would reduce criticism.


I haven't heard much criticism from anyone about this. I would imagine it's to keep the populations more of a secret, but you don't want what I think the answer is.

I don't think it matters much with these. If they were just plain old importers from Suriname or panama, then I'd want better locale data. However, since these are from conservationists, I'm not too worried about it.

You could always email them or UE to find out though.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

The truncatus had locale information.

This is actually the first time I've seen anyone concerned about the new frogs from them not having location information.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> The truncatus had locale information.
> 
> This is actually the first time I've seen anyone concerned about the new frogs from them not having location information.


Me personally just saying "Tesoros" is specific enough....I mean with that there cannot be any confusion.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> The trouble is if not enough people support their current ventures, the large obligates may not happen.


I understand what you're saying Doug, and I do not mean this a condescending tone towards Tesoros ... 
but who's to say they will come even if enough of the current stock is sold?
Although highly unlikely, there's the possibility these (the Lehmanni) were advertised as a sales tactic to increase sales of the current stock as well. (I'm playing devil's advocate here ... pointing out a different angle that perhaps not many have considered).

Until they reach our shores, it's a speculative pipe dream full of hope & wishful thinking.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I think in the end the most transparency is the most important thing. Location data is part of that. What if Tesoros gives up after a year? Seems likely given all the doom and gloom. If he can't make it work with frogs 3x the normal price of CB counter parts and some new "black foot" comes in or whatever other issues arise we need the data to make the best decisions on breeding or if some future player is ever to go rediscover that population. We don't need any more frogs where they become isolated populations because we know nothing about them and are too scared to mix and are stuck in perpetual inbreeding.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I'm surprised no one else has brought up location information as an issue!

It's probably because I have experience with animals outside of frogs where location information is typical and frankly it makes sense. Pubfiction is exactly correct. I don't care how revered the company, organization or person is, releasing location collection information makes good sense.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> I'm surprised no one else has brought up location information as an issue!


It's because it's not an issue. There is locale Info for for these frogs.



> It's probably because I have experience with animals outside of frogs where location information is typical and frankly it makes sense. Pubfiction is exactly correct. I don't care how revered the company, organization or person is, releasing location collection information makes good sense.


No, that's not it at all. Location information is typical with frogs as well. Sorry, your extensive background with animals other than frogs is nothing special here.

Tesoros is hardly revered, but they're well respected and are doing something nobody has done legally yet, bring us legal CB frogs from Colombia. Right now the right people are working with them.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Gamble said:


> I understand what you're saying Doug, and I do not mean this a condescending tone towards Tesoros ...
> but who's to say they will come even if enough of the current stock is sold?
> Although highly unlikely, there's the possibility these (the Lehmanni) were advertised as a sales tactic to increase sales of the current stock as well. (I'm playing devil's advocate here ... pointing out a different angle that perhaps not many have considered).
> 
> Until they reach our shores, it's a speculative pipe dream full of hope & wishful thinking.


Agreed, and you have a point. I don't think that's likely though.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Azurel said:


> Me personally just saying "Tesoros" is specific enough....I mean with that there cannot be any confusion.


Agreed. It's plenty good enough. Just like saying Understory is good enough.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Agreed, and you have a point. I don't think that's likely though.


Neither do I ... but it's always a possibility.

I just don't feel that people should use it as a reason to buy the current frogs ... as there is no guarantee that they are coming.

New bloodline ... sure.
You like them ... definitely
To support the conservation work ... absolutely. 
But not just bc of interest in other frogs that may or may not come.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Before anyone freaks out anymore by this supposed lack of location information, has anyone thought to ASK?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Gamble said:


> Neither do I ... but it's always a possibility.
> 
> I just don't feel that people should use it as a reason to buy the current frogs ... as there is no guarantee that they are coming.
> 
> ...


Well, I respectfully disagree. I had some insight as to what they were planning, all the way up to and including Lehmani. I chose to buy Tesoros Nilo Truncatus, specifically because I wanted to support their future endeavors. 

Certainly it shouldn't be your only reason, but purchasing frogs from people doing good things should be part of the equation. You're right, we could end up getting burned, but it feel good about these guys. If we do end up not getting the other frogs, at least we will have tried to make it happen.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I also wonder what exactly some people expect to know as far as locale information is concerned. Like what exactly would satisfy your need for that information?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Gamble said:


> To support the conservation work ... absolutely.





ZookeeperDoug said:


> specifically because I wanted to support their future endeavors.


Doug ... 
That's what I said.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

You said conservation work, by future endeavors, I meant the potential for bringing new lines of frogs.

But of course I support their conservation efforts as well.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

In order to avoid any confusion or any disappointment, and to better inform the public, I think it would be best to list the frog by its species name followed by the location. It would also not hurt to take pictures of specimens that are more like what is typically offered instead of the label you market them by.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> In order to avoid any confusion or any disappointment, and to better inform the public, I think it would be best to list the frog by its species name followed by the location. It would also not hurt to take pictures of specimens that are more like what is typically offered instead of the label you market them by.


What exactly do you expect them to provide for location information?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Phyllobates terribilis (nearest significant village or landmark). Then publish the GPS coordinates of the collection point of the breeders.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> Phyllobates terribilis (nearest significant village or landmark). Then publish the GPS coordinates of the collection point of the breeders.


I sure hope the last part is intended to be sarcasm.


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Whys that so crazy? Isnt that what they do with the UE stock on dendrobates.org?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gamble said:


> I understand what you're saying Doug, and I do not mean this a condescending tone towards Tesoros ...
> but who's to say they will come even if enough of the current stock is sold?
> Although highly unlikely, there's the possibility these (the Lehmanni) were advertised as a sales tactic to increase sales of the current stock as well. (I'm playing devil's advocate here ... pointing out a different angle that perhaps not many have considered).
> 
> Until they reach our shores, it's a speculative pipe dream full of hope & wishful thinking.


Have you talked to Mark about the lehmanni? You know he's been to their facility in Colombia right? 

They have the yellow lehmanni. And they probably have for a while since they've been working on this project for 7 or 8 years.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Have you read my post that said I was playing Devil's advocate? 

I don't need to talk to Mark. It doesn't matter to me whether he has them or not. I was just making a point.

So please don't take it so literally ... or personally.

Jeez.

Sometimes I really love this hobby & everyone in it.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> Phyllobates terribilis (nearest significant village or landmark). Then publish the GPS coordinates of the collection point of the breeders.


Understory doesn't even do that. Look at striped reticulata, and chrome green bassleri. INIBICO, wikiri, CRARC....none of them do/did that. 

You don't seem to realize that there are smugglers who want a lot of these frogs. It wouldn't be the best move to publish that information in a lot of situations. Imagine if Mark brought in the Nominal fantastica or sirensis and published exact coordinates? Bye bye to the wild populations of those frogs.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gamble said:


> Have you read my post that said I was playing Devil's advocate?
> 
> I don't need to talk to Mark. It doesn't matter to me whether he has them or not. I was just making a point.
> 
> ...


Where exactly in my post did you read something to respond to me like this? I asked if you had asked him about them, and told you he's been there. Then told you they have them. Sorry if it came off as more than that, but it is through a computer. But obviously you do care whether or not they have them, or you wouldn't have said that.

Edit: to clarify, TESOROS has the yellow lehmanni, not UE.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Too much tension here for my liking. I'm leaving this topic behind.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

thedude said:


> Where exactly in my post did you read something to respond to me like this? I asked if you had asked him about them, and told you he's been there. Then told you they have them. Sorry if it came off as more than that, but it is through a computer. But obviously you do care whether or not they have them, or you wouldn't have said that.
> 
> Edit: to clarify, TESOROS has the yellow lehmanni, not UE.


I guess the intent can get lost in translation ... 
i read it as if you were trying to be condescending.
My sincerest apologies Adam.

So to answer your question, no I've never spoke to Mark about it.

And of course I care ... 
especially for everyone in the hobby that wants them.
(Or for future imports).


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gamble said:


> I guess the intent can get lost in translation ...
> i read it as if you were trying to be condescending.
> My sincerest apologies Adam.
> 
> ...


Happens, no worries. I can see how you could read it that way.

Anyway they do have them (the yellow anyway, no idea on red). I'm really curious to know how much they are going to be. Probably out of my price range.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

UE has them or Tesoros does?

Either way that's good.
Thank you for sharing .
What did you Think of them?

In regards to price,
I've heard $500/ea ($1000/pr).

Although there were some that said or thought that the Blackfoots were gonna be high priced ($300ea) & they were priced alot lower than that.

So hopefully they are.
Myself personally, I'd buy a pair @ $500, but I am undecided on if I'd be willing to pay $1000.

I'd definitely pay $1000 for the red/black ones. 
I think alot of us would.

But it doesn't matter, there's some people that have lots of money sitting & waiting to buy every single one of them.
So we may not see them anyways. (Which be either good or bad depending on how you look at it)

But that's a different topic.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gamble said:


> UE has them or Tesoros does?
> 
> Either way that's good.
> Thank you for sharing .
> ...


Tesoros does. They wouldn't be able to get permits for them right now.

That's lower than I would expect. Typical sylvatica is $500. I think the last time someone was selling lehmanni they were like $2000+

I'd expect at least $1000 each. 

I wouldn't worry too much about people buying all of them. Tesoros can always breed more. This isn't going to be one of those frogs that people breed like crazy and demand goes down. I think they will always be in demand, same with histrionica.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

It was mentioned selling their species for 2 to 3 times the current market, well there is no current market for these....unless you found the few with the smuggled ones now. These are new and a first offering of anything new usually comes at a high price, subsequent offerings usually come down a bit based on how easily bred the species is, but knowing theirs is 1 generation removed from the wild would add value to what they are selling. As Ed mentioned in the Mysteriousis thread that some will always want the newest genetics so to speak. Much like most of the UE offerings, the first LL Fants were $295 each, now they sell them for $135 each.
I would assume Lehmanni will be a minimum of $1000 each, they would sell them all in minutes at that price. I am very happy they have the yellow morph it is my favorite, I just hope we get to the point where they come in 1, 2, 3 or more times.
I also think it would be smart for them to put a landmark name on some of their frogs as to locality, though Black Foot may be enough, it certainly is enough for Brazilian Yellowhead and Powder Blue Tincs but a little more transparency and a few multiple frog shots I think would go a long way.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

scoy said:


> Whys that so crazy? Isnt that what they do with the UE stock on dendrobates.org?


It's always been my understanding that these are generalized localities for basic reference, not the actual locations where the Understory animals came from.

Why is it a crazy idea? Really? Might as well post on Facebook that you'll be out of town for two weeks and that all your wife's jewelry is unattended and set that post to public. You're essentially telling smugglers exactly where to go get the frogs, it's a horrible idea, so bad, I couldn't even attribute it to him as a legitimate idea, it has to be sarcasm, it's that bad, he must be being tongue in cheep just to get a rise.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

thedude said:


> Tesoros does. They wouldn't be able to get permits for them right now.
> 
> That's lower than I would expect. Typical sylvatica is $500. I think the last time someone was selling lehmanni they were like $2000+
> 
> ...


Does anyone know just how well they're doing breeding lehmani? I mean they're totally different from the other frogs they're working with. No massive clutch sizes, easy to raise offspring, etc. we know they've had success with them, but how much? 

I'm assuming their initial offering will be quite small and exclusive, and that it will be up to us as hobbyists to carefully manage them.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

markpulawski said:


> I also think it would be smart for them to put a landmark name on some of their frogs as to locality, though Black Foot may be enough, it certainly is enough for Brazilian Yellowhead and Powder Blue Tincs but a little more transparency and a few multiple frog shots I think would go a long way.


I agree Mark. I think the issue is really only one of a perceived lack of transparency. It isn't like Tesoros maintains any type of forum presence. It is still a really small effort, in its infancy in a foreign country. I'm sure Ivan is slaving away trying to make it work and doesn't have much time to cater to the quiry whims of our community of weirdos(myself included). Because Weknow good people are working with them, people that we all trust very well, I don't think there is too much to be concerned about.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I am still confused why people expect everyone to buy frogs that they don't personally want....since I see it still mentioned. For future frogs that they can't afford? That reason to support tesoros seems flawed. Or seems to be in favor of the select group who can afford to take the risks with high dollar frogs.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> I am still confused why people expect everyone to buy frogs that they don't personally want....since I see it still mentioned. For future frogs that they can't afford? That reason to support tesoros seems flawed. Or seems to be in favor of the select group who can afford to take the risks with high dollar frogs.


Possibly because that isn't what is being said at all?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Guess we have read different threads. I have seen it mentioned before. If people don't support now they won't get the more rare/expensive stuff. Even saw it in this thread.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Guess we have read different threads. I have seen it mentioned before.


Perhaps in different old threads, maybe, but you're posting in THIS thread, saying specifically that it is *STILL* being mentioned. That indicates to me that you take issue with it still being brought up, here, when in fact it isn't.

I think if you reread my posts related to this subject more carefully, you'll see that I never advocated buying frogs you don't want. I've never advocated anyone buying frogs they don't want.

I do advocate supporting Tesoros, especially if they do have a species of frog you're interested in.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Why do you feel I aimed it personally at you?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> If people don't support now they won't get the more rare/expensive stuff. Even saw it in this thread.


To address your edit, this is a change to your address original statement and is something I brought up, although inaccurate.

I have not stated people should buy frogs they don't want so they can get frogs they do want. 

But it is rational and had been addressed by many that if Tesoros doesn't get support now, their future endeavors *MAY* fail. This is an unfortunate reality and is not flawed logic at all.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Why do you feel I aimed it personally at you?


Because it's very obviously in relation to statements I've recently made in the thread. If not, good, but I'm still letting you know that I disagree with your sentiment on the subject.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I think you took it personally. Just heard that tossed around for people to buy frogs now so more will come in. For the lehmanni....the people who will be able to buy them are so limited but it seemed to be expected of everyone else....not saying by you here...just how I interpreted the tone of the words typed in the past. This is how it stood out to me....maybe what people typed meant something to you.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Because it's very obviously in relation to statements I've recently made in the thread. If not, good, but I'm still letting you know that I disagree with your sentiment on the subject.


....didnt really recall you mention it here so no...I wasn't referencing you.


Sigh....why do I ever post ha


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> I think you took it personally. Just heard that tossed around for people to buy frogs now so more will come in. For the lehmanni....the people who will be able to buy them are so limited but it seemed to be expected of everyone else....not saying by you here...just how I interpreted the tone of the words typed in the past. This is how it stood out to me....maybe what people typed meant something to you.


No I did not take it personally. In fact I know it isn't personal, by I do think it was in reference to my recent posts on the subject. I suppose I can suspend disbelief and assume that your comments are just a coincidence and have absolutely nothing do do with very recent comments by me about this.

Yes, absolutely it has been tossed around for people to buy frogs so more come in. What I disagree with you on is that anyone, myself included, ever suggested that people purchase frogs they do not want. That was your initial comment that is inaccurate.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

It was more to what gamble posted in one of his posts. And I know he wasn't saying that either.

I felt there were some vocal people in other threads almost making it like they were guilting people to buy. Whether it was the intent or not....it's how I read some of them. No one in particular post that I am thinking, just something I remember feeling when I read. Not that I was guilted but that it could come across that way. And I remember others getting on defensive that they aren't just going to buy something they don't want, so I know I can't be the only one who interpreted posts in this way. So despite that you don't feel that is what people are saying, I still feel some took it that way.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> No I did not take it personally. In fact I know it isn't personal, by I do think it was in reference to my recent posts on the subject. I suppose I can suspend disbelief and assume that your comments are just a coincidence and have absolutely nothing do do with very recent comments by me about this.
> 
> Yes, absolutely it has been tossed around for people to buy frogs so more come in. What I disagree with you on is that anyone, myself included, ever suggested that people purchase frogs they do not want. That was your initial comment that is inaccurate.


I think what Greg is saying is that by telling people to buy frogs to ensure others come in, it could potentially be interpreted by others that you (not you personally ... a collective you) are inferring it.

Interpretation is the same as an opinion ... Everything is understood by people in different degrees of understanding.

EDIT: Greg posted while I was typing the above.
Doug, Greg is correct ... that was the sentiment of many I've spoken to privately.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yep. Well said.

I have my other questions about these tesoros threads that don't make sense to me as well....and how people are behaving in regards to this. But guess I should just .....stop typing.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Yep. Well said.
> 
> I have my other questions about these tesoros threads that don't make sense to me as well....and how people are behaving in regards to this. But guess I should just .....stop typing.


No really please continue. I'd very much like to know what you're insinuating.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Nah...this conversation took up way too many posts as it was. Not getting into it again, despite my opinion being shared by others, it is not welcome by the vocal few with differing opinions.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Gamble said:


> I think what Greg is saying is that by telling people to buy frogs to ensure others come in, it could potentially be interpreted by others that you (not you personally ... a collective you) are inferring it.
> 
> Interpretation is the same as an opinion ... Everything is understood by people in different degrees of understanding.


You really can't hold others responsible for the misinterpretation of the intent of others. 

It's the old intent vs impact argument.

And I won't really speak to the intent or impact of what others have said as it relates to this topic. I've made my opinion on the subject clear:

Support Tesoros is you have the ability and want to. The hobby only stands to benefit if this endeavor succeeds.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Wow...........


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Nah...this conversation took up way too many posts as it was. Not getting into it again, despite my opinion being shared by others, it is not welcome by the vocal few with differing opinions.


Don't assume you're the silent many against the vocal few. I've spoken to quite a few people of a very wide variety of opinions on the subject, many agree with you, many don't, the vast majority are still on the fence. Trying to make it sound like you're the majority opinion being silenced my a vocal minority is disingenuous.


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Remember, they are just frogs we all enjoy.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> Wow...........


Thanks for providing such a constructive comment to the discussion, very helpful.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Blue_Pumilio said:


> Remember, they are just frogs we all enjoy.


Exactly. It's not like there is some vast conspiracy going on here. It's really overblown by some, which is disappointing.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Don't assume you're the silent many against the vocal few. I've spoken to quite a few people of a very wide variety of opinions on the subject, many agree with you, many don't, the vast majority are still on the fence. Trying to make it sound like you're the majority opinion being silenced my a vocal minority is disingenuous.


I'm not assuming. Just stated an opinion. You stated my opinion was wrong cause apparently opinions are only factual now? But anyway my wow was something else I just edited but had to type something....so basically saying wow like this is still going on. Sorry you don't like another post by me ha. How peoples attitudes change so quickly on forums.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Oh and thanks justin haha lighten the mood some. My wow post was to do that but figured a joke would have been taken wrong .... :/ so changed it to something else....then saw it continued on so changed again.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

mydumname said:


> I'm not assuming. Just stated an opinion. You stated my opinion was wrong cause apparently opinions are only factual now? But anyway my wow was something else I just edited but had to type something....so basically saying wow like this is still going on. Sorry you don't like another post by me ha. How peoples attitudes change so quickly on forums.


How dare I have the audacity to disagree with you eh? Yes, I disagree with your opinions, and you with mine. This is a discussion and we both have our opinions. The problems is while you insult me and accuse me of taking it personally, you do exactly that.

I have no problem with as many posts as you want on the subject, so by all means, feel free to add whatever you want, just let's not derail the thread any further and keep it on topic.


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## Tricolor (Jun 12, 2009)

Im looking forward to them. My orange terribilis offspring are very variable
in color from almost yellow to so orange they seem reddish. My mints from a striking light green to a darker green, my yellows just all bright yellow. That's my 2 cents for what its worth.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Tricolor said:


> Im looking forward to them. My orange terribilis offspring are very variable
> in color from almost yellow to so orange they seem reddish. My mints from a striking light green to a darker green, my yellows just all bright yellow. That's my 2 cents for what its worth.


Pictures?????


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

*Alright guys... keep in mind this thread is in the "Members Frogs and Vivariums" forum.

We've veered off topic enough... lets keep it back on topic going forward. *

If you REALLY want to talk about this other stuff (and I'm not recommending it because I think we have all said what we need to say at this point), start a conversation in the appropriate place.


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## taherman (Sep 5, 2008)

I am not one to post much, but I thought it would be useful to point out that people who attended SACAS had the opportunity to hear and see a whole presentation from Ivan about Tesoros de Colombia. And they had almost a week to ask him in person any question they wanted to. This was not an exclusive event by any means, yet attendance was not nearly as high as organizers, or the many conservation-minded individuals in attendance had hoped. Does everyone on Dendroboard not find it telling that some of Tesoros' biggest proponents are the hobbyists who took the opportunity to speak to Ivan directly about his project when they attended SACAS? To me this would be an indicator that maybe the momentum in the hobby should be with him, rather than against him, if hobbyists ever want to see legal frogs of ANY species be available from Colombia.

There is no conspiracy, there are no dark secrets. This is very dedicated people working very hard to make new things happen for people that love amphibians and care where (and about where) their animals come from. They are working through countless and relentless obstacles to make this happen. I really hope that everything goes well and the hobbyists become more supportive in the future.

-Tim


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

markpulawski said:


> It was mentioned selling their species for 2 to 3 times the current market, well there is no current market for these....unless you found the few with the smuggled ones now. These are new and a first offering of anything new usually comes at a high price, subsequent offerings usually come down a bit based on how easily bred the species is, but knowing theirs is 1 generation removed from the wild would add value to what they are selling. As Ed mentioned in the Mysteriousis thread that some will always want the newest genetics so to speak. Much like most of the UE offerings, the first LL Fants were $295 each, now they sell them for $135 each.
> I would assume Lehmanni will be a minimum of $1000 each, they would sell them all in minutes at that price. I am very happy they have the yellow morph it is my favorite, I just hope we get to the point where they come in 1, 2, 3 or more times.
> I also think it would be smart for them to put a landmark name on some of their frogs as to locality, though Black Foot may be enough, it certainly is enough for Brazilian Yellowhead and Powder Blue Tincs but a little more transparency and a few multiple frog shots I think would go a long way.


Ya but the point of saying that was not to discuss the actual worth it was to point out that tesoros may not have a financially viable business and it may be that nothing can save them. If they cant make money when its new and hot how are they going to survive later on?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

UPDATE FROM ELAINE ...*
(I posted this in the Tesoros thread as well)

I received this email just a little bit ago regarding the status of the Blackfoot Terribs:


Hi Nick,
We did finally reach the point where we felt we had cleared all
obstacles and were ready to do the import from Colombia to the US this
week.
Unfortunately there were huge unforeseen delays with clearing at
customs and Fish and Wildlife(due to confusion/miscommunication/
misunderstandings between customs/broker/USFW) so the frogs came in
very stressed and with some mortalities.
So right now we are just holding them to further assess. When we are
confident that they are ready for shipping we will start to contact
people in the order that people contacted us to place their order.

With the frogs that we have, we will not be able to fill all of the
orders so have several options for you to consider if you can not get
your frogs from the shipment we just received.
1)Wait until Indoor Ecosystems does another "Direct from Tesoros
shipment" early in 2014.
2)Get your frogs as a Re-export from Canada in our March shipment -
PLEASE NOTE - this is the only time we will be able to do this but
right now we want everyone who has been so patient to get their frogs
as soon as possible)
3)Get a 100% refund

We are extremely disappointed/frustrated/discouraged that we do not
yet have the frogs for everyone who ordered them as there has been an
unfathomable amount of time and effort put into this by everyone
involved. This is not how these shipments are ever supposed to happen.
Thanks again for your patience.
Please take all of the time you need to consider your options and then
let us know.
Regards.
Elaine
P.S.
I have to be away until Monday so will most likely not be able to respond to
emails until then.




SO ... what decision are you all going to be making?
(Those that ordered them).


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

I also got the email, Im a little sad about this...on the one hand I still want them, but on the other I dont really know if I want to keep waiting all be it probably the best option.. What are you going to do?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

This is certainly a bummer. I'd have no problem waiting, but that's easy for me to say since I am waiting anyway due to space constraints and money.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I have not decided yet bc I really do want them ... but could also use the $ due to xmas.

I do know that a couple people DID request a refund.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I would expect some the big Tesoros supporters here, that were vocal and purchased these frogs are going to share like sentiments with Gamble. Reason being is that the frog picture that was first published by Tesoros appears not to be typical of the whole.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Well after much debate & consulting a few of my friends about it ... i decided to get my refund.
I informed Elaine that I will try to repurchase them after all of the kinks have been worked out.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Gamble said:


> SO ... what decision are you all going to be making?
> (Those that ordered them).


Happy to wait as long as it takes.
As long as they continue to comunicate with me and do not pull the wool over my (or anyone else's) eyes, I will wait till the cows come home.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I hope people choose to wait, itll help things go more smoothly in the future for tesoros.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

mydumname said:


> That is comparing a lot of non phyllobates frogs to these. Most phyllobates seem to not have much variation from what I have seen. Slight different hues with the terribilis. And apparently different degrees of black with these guys. I don't think comparing variability in auratus patterns to these really works. Many phyllobAtes don't have patterns....mostly solid or stripes.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing some more pics of the tesoros frogs. Hoping someone ordered some aurotaenia to share pics of. Yes spelled wrong but I'm not fixing it on this phone.


Are you speaking primarily of terribilis? Or all Phyllobates species? The reason I ask is because my orange bicolors have a relatively large amount of variation just in the group that I have. From the amount of yellow to orange on their backs to the amount of green, yellow, or black on their legs. 

When I got them from Barbara at herpetologic she wanted to make sure I knew exactly what I was getting. She let me know before I ordered them that the degree of orange varied a lot and that some weren't very orange at all. This was very appreciated considering I wouldn't have thought to ask. 

We should all be diligent in seeking out information for ourselves (I have failed at this quite a bit if I am being honest). However, I can definitely understand the disappointment if the vast majority of what came in was strikingly pale compared to the example photo. Hard to say for sure though until they come in.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ugh seriously people. You have two ends of a potential spectrum here. You have some perhaps underwhelming, to some, I find them very nice myself, frogs posted here, and the photo Tesoro's has supplied. That's it. Who knows what else is out there? Why the rush to judgement? How do we know, that like all terribilis, these frogs change greatly with age. I'm wondering if some people posting have never seen a terribilis froglet before. The ones I've seen take a while to truely attain their beautiful adult coloration, and are quite the ugly ducklings early on. Who is to say that these pics we have are not still frogs with a whole heck of potential down the line. Furthermore, they could be washed out from a bad flash, poor photography skills, not tuning the RGB balance in photoshop(who hasn't seen some on post pics of over saturated frogs). I for one will reserve judgement until I've seen a few more of these frogs in question and they've had time to mature. I speak from experience, because as thrilled as I was with my Tesoros Truncatus, they've only gotten more vivid and striking with age.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

LizardLicker said:


> Are you speaking primarily of terribilis? Or all Phyllobates species? The reason I ask is because my orange bicolors have a relatively large amount of variation just in the group that I have. From the amount of yellow to orange on their backs to the amount of green, yellow, or black on their legs.
> 
> When I got them from Barbara at herpetologic she wanted to make sure I knew exactly what I was getting. She let me know before I ordered them that the degree of orange varied a lot and that some weren't very orange at all. This was very appreciated considering I wouldn't have thought to ask.
> 
> We should all be diligent in seeking out information for ourselves (I have failed at this quite a bit if I am being honest). However, I can definitely understand the disappointment if the vast majority of what came in was strikingly pale compared to the example photo. Hard to say for sure though until they come in.


Sorry.....I'll acknowledge your quote of me but I stepped out of the convo on this thread. Just not my style of conversation anymore. Best of luck to tesoros and those getting frogs from them.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> I would expect some the big Tesoros supporters here, that were vocal and purchased these frogs are going to share like sentiments with Gamble. Reason being is that the frog picture that was first published by Tesoros appears not to be typical of the whole.


This has already been said, you can't judge what a typical frog looks like by a couple pictures, especially when we don't know the age of the frogs. Besides, nick still wants them, just needs Xmas money.

We've waited this long for the first unquestionably legal, captive bred Colombian frogs, what's a few more months?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> I would expect some the big Tesoros supporters here, that were vocal and purchased these frogs are going to share like sentiments with Gamble. Reason being is that the frog picture that was first published by Tesoros appears not to be typical of the whole.


This is fallacious logic. We have not seen what is typical of the whole. We have seen one very small group of frogs and the Tesoros stock photo. That's it. I would expect most of the Tesoros supporters will reserve judgement until they are better informed. Their detractors and skeptics, most of them anyway, are also doing the same.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

thedude said:


> This has already been said, you can't judge what a typical frog looks like by a couple pictures, especially when we don't know the age of the frogs. Besides, nick still wants them, just needs Xmas money.
> 
> We've waited this long for the first unquestionably legal, captive bred Colombian frogs, what's a few more months?


Exactly ... i do still want them & i will get them.
I just felt that I could put my money to better use right now while I wait for everything to work itself out.

UE has been completely transparent in all of this & i commend them. I do not hold them at fault & made it very clear to Elaine that I will be reordering them.

The others I know that requested their refund did it for the same reasons & they have also stated that they will repurchase them once everything is going more smoothly.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> This is fallacious logic. We have not seen what is typical of the whole. We have seen one very small group of frogs and the Tesoros stock photo. That's it. I would expect most of the Tesoros supporters will reserve judgement until they are better informed. Their detractors and skeptics, most of them anyway, are also doing the same.


 That's a very fair statement. I stand corrected. I don't know, as we need to wait and see more examples.

But for future reference, here it is. I love that orange. The feet that look liked they're dipped in ink wells really makes them stand out.









It will be interesting to see how many more people stand up and say they are waiting on the frogs and not asking for a refund.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I'm just guessing ... 
(And this had no bearing on my own decisions) ... but I think part of the problem was bad timing too.

What i mean by that is with the very recent CR import controversy & now this ... Some people may have decided to be safe than sorry ... even tho the 2 have nothing to do with eachother & are not even the same problem.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Gamble said:


> I'm just guessing ...
> (And this had no bearing on my own decisions) ... but I think part of the problem was bad timing too.
> 
> What i mean by that is with the very recent CR import controversy & now this ... Some people may have decided to be safe than sorry ... even tho the 2 have nothing to do with eachother & are not even the same problem.


God I hope not. Lumping Tesoros in with that whole mess would be very unfair. I know you're not doing that Nick, I just hope nobody actually feels that way.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> God I hope not. Lumping Tesoros in with that whole mess would be very unfair. I know you're not doing that Nick, I just hope nobody actually feels that way.


Very true ... but unfortunately it's always a possibility.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> God I hope not. Lumping Tesoros in with that whole mess would be very unfair. I know you're not doing that Nick, I just hope nobody actually feels that way.


Could someone message me or point me in the direction of the Costa Rican issue? I missed something.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

thedude said:


> Could someone message me or point me in the direction of the Costa Rican issue? I missed something.


Same…. please message me


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

PM sent. 
Wear a cup bc there's some shady low blows.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Hey, I just got a "like" on my post by ZooKeeperDoug! Ok, I did have to admit that I was wrong and he was right to get one, but it's a start, I'lll take it!


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> Hey, I just got a "like" on my post by ZooKeeperDoug! Ok, I did have to admit that I was wrong and he was right to get one, but it's a start, I'lll take it!


Credit where credit is due bro... 

It was painful BTW


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Gamble said:


> PM sent.
> Wear a cup bc there's some shady low blows.


Anyone who has been interested in pumilio from CR should probably read that.

Sorry for the hijack.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Hey, did I ever say that I love the frogs in the first pictures? Yeah sure, they aren't what some of us were quite expecting, but those are still BEAUTIFUL frogs in my opinion and deserve more nice comments than what we have been giving them

I want to see more pics of the little guys! How old are they?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Can someone shoot me a link to the pumilio read, purdy please?


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## tylototriton (Oct 10, 2008)

epiphytes etc. said:


> Can someone shoot me a link to the pumilio read, purdy please?


Likewise. 

Thanks,
Alex


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

I spoke with a friend about it that is more experienced with this then myself & I elected not to ask for a refund & wait for the spring. With me it wasnt so much the money as a concern, but the health of the frogs in the batch that gave me pause. Understory has said they are evaluating the frogs & seeing which customers orders they may be able to fill from this batch. I dont know all the details that go into the paperwork of such Imports, but I feel in the worst case waiting until March to get healthier less stressed animals is ok if that is in fact what happens. However, I do feel that while I dont & wont place blame on Understory as I know they are professional & try their best, If the order is not filled in March I will be let down to the point of taking a refund then just from losing faith in the process.. I dont feel it will come to that & there is still a possibility of them comign in december if they decide some are good to go & im fortunate enough in my place in the ordrs to get first batch shipping.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Has anyone thought about the toxicity of these frogs?
I will most certainly be using a strict hands off and wash everything protocol when mine arrive. I assume that they will eventually become the "safe" frogs we are all accustomed to, but for the first couple of years, I will be on guard.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

paper towels that have come into contact with terribilis from the wild have killed pets in the past. Be a real shame for folks to get careless and lose a beloved member of the family. 



Gloves, double bagged waste and caution for sure


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Sherman said:


> Has anyone thought about the toxicity of these frogs?
> I will most certainly be using a strict hands off and wash everything protocol when mine arrive. I assume that they will eventually become the "safe" frogs we are all accustomed to, but for the first couple of years, I will be on guard.


I asked Elaine that specific question Chris...I will see if I can find the email and give a snippet of what she said....


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Sherman said:


> Has anyone thought about the toxicity of these frogs?
> I will most certainly be using a strict hands off and wash everything protocol when mine arrive. I assume that they will eventually become the "safe" frogs we are all accustomed to, but for the first couple of years, I will be on guard.


This is a good point. I have a habit of rubbing my eyes right after I cut up some hot peppers. It might be unpleasant to do that after working with these frogs.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

There have been reports of wild caught terribilis being in captivity for 5 years and still possessing a powerful sting when they came in contact with a persons hand 
Not sure how much truth there is to this


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Is there reason to believe tesoros is feeding something other than the standard fruit flies?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I guess I'm unclear as to whether these are being raised in an indoor or outdoor facility. Should do my research i guess


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

frogparty said:


> I guess I'm unclear as to whether these are being raised in an indoor or outdoor facility. Should do my research i guess


I believe they are bred in doors...once I to a pc I will look for the email.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Azurel said:


> I asked Elaine that specific question Chris...I will see if I can find the email and give a snippet of what she said....


Excellent. I would like to know what she said on this subject. 


epiphytes etc. said:


> Is there reason to believe tesoros is feeding something other than the standard fruit flies?


I would imagine it would be easy to supliment with local bugs, but do not want to speculate as to what they are feeding. That is a good question; What does Tesoros de Colombia feed their frogs?


frogparty said:


> I guess I'm unclear as to whether these are being raised in an indoor or outdoor facility. Should do my research i guess


These frogs are being raised inside in terrariums.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

The terribilis will be captive bred F-2's.

Bred in doors in vivariums I did not ask about what they were feeding....
She said there shouldn't be any concern but if you are concerned at all just wear gloves when you are transferring them to their new home.

Not a whole lot of information shared but that was is the basics.....


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Bueno! F2 is great! I was expecting F1


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Feast your eyes on the first legally imported _Phyllobates terribilis_ in the USA. Thanks to Indoor Ecosystems, Understory Enterprises, and Tesoros de Colombia.











PS: Nick G - Thanks for the frogs!


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Those are the most stunning terribs I've ever seen. Thanks for the post John.

John


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Wow, a mod removed my site link to where the pics came from but my photos are good enough to not be removed? Please keep in mind I've posted *many* photos here over the years, driving content to DB. It's a simple matter to turn them all into broken refs. Play fair Dendroboard.

To readers: if you would like to see more photos of these guys or read about them, please visit the site named in the copyright watermark of the photos I just posted. Thank you.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Great looking frogs!!! I like the combo black belly and black feet on that particular individual a lot!


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

johnc said:


> Wow, a mod removed my site link to where the pics came from but my photos are good enough to not be removed? Please keep in mind I've posted *many* photos here over the years, driving content to DB. It's a simple matter to turn them all into broken refs. Play fair Dendroboard.
> 
> To readers: if you would like to see more photos of these guys or read about them, please visit the site named in the copyright watermark of the photos I just posted. Thank you.


lol They wont let you link to a competing forum.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Gorgeous frogs! Thanks for sharing and for reminding me about your site. It was a long time that I do not visiting it. Always beautiful pictures. Bravo!


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Great looking frogs John. I hope that these are an indication that this is what is more typical of these frogs.

Also, fantastic photography as well.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Those look great....


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Looks like a giant pumilio ....


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Stunning Terribilis! I need to hit the lotto soon so I can get a small group  thanks for sharing!


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Beautiful doesn`t even come close, and I miss your photos from years back.
Were those given any color suppliments? Mine are that orange, but I give them a good dose of Superpig every so often. 
Mine are not Blackfoots by the way.

John


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I asked that question. They were given Repashy supplements but not Superpig.


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Beautiful frogs!!!



Todd


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Our FrogTV (on you know where - see image copyright on the previous page of this thread) is now broadcasting a live view of my quarantine terrarium containing a bunch of these Blackfoot Orange terribilis from Tesoros de Colombia. Check it out.


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

Very cool…. Although, I am blinded temporarily by all the $$$ jumping around. lol

From what it looks like there is quite a bit of variability in the amount of black and orange on each individual.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

LizardLicker said:


> Very cool…. Although, I am blinded temporarily by all the $$$ jumping around. lol


Haha, don't remind me .



LizardLicker said:


> From what it looks like there is quite a bit of variability in the amount of black and orange on each individual.


It's true. Most individuals have some black underneath, and slightly yellower legs and oranger bodies, but there are variations. A few are uniform orange with a completely black venter.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

awesome photography! thank you for sharing john.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

You want to see some nice photos, check out the linc in his signature.

John


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

A bit more realistic tomorrow.
Photo on the phone from John Claire Frogforum.


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## traveler13 (Sep 22, 2009)

Here is a nice close up of one of mine.


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

Thank you to everyone involved in getting these here and supporting this project. A spectacular accomplishment to say the least. Ethical, legally exported, locality specific, truly Captive Bred frogs from Colombia, benefitting Colombia as well as the hobby.

My 3 Black Foot Orange Terribilis arrived safely this morning. 
They look to be about 1/2 to 3/4 grown and look great. 
The two in the photos do not have as much black as the one that dove straight into the leaf litter. They both have some black on their feet, or toes. The "one that got away" was very much black footed. That one has a large amount of black on its belly and chin. I will surely get photos once they settle in from their long journey.

Their orange is hard for me to explain (slightly color-blind) but I can tell that they are orange. The second photo seems to have overexposed a bit and began to wash it out a bit. The other two photos give a better representation of what I see, at least on my screen.

More when I can,
Chris


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## Sirjohn (Jan 1, 2014)

They are absolutely stunning... A very nice looking frog indeed...Really Beautiful..


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Chris did these come through Understory or were these from Colombia via Indoor ecosystems?


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)

markpulawski said:


> Chris did these come through Understory or were these from Colombia via Indoor ecosystems?


Colombia via Indoor Ecosystems.
I don't know if the timing of the Understory shipment was intentional or serendipitous.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

yes all arrivng on the same day made me wonder....as well as the newest Costa Rican Pumilio shipment, it hit Florida today as well
it's raining frogs hallelujah


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## Sherman (Oct 29, 2008)




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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

SirJohn....I think you need some---to go with your leucs....!!!


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## Sirjohn (Jan 1, 2014)

Judy S said:


> SirJohn....I think you need some---to go with your leucs....!!!


Yes I do and have been already making arrangements..Your the best Judy.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

Wanted to bump this thread up. I recently acquired five of these from JL Exotics a couple weeks ago. More recently there was an article in National Geographic that says these are a designer morph. Thoughts? Here is a link to the article:


https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2018/11/poison-dart-frogs-breeding-colombia-wildlife/

I may not have purchased them if I had known they were line bred. I want to support Tesoros, and will continue to support Tesoros. I am waiting for some bicolors from them now. Then again, they are likely the only terribilis in the hobby that have not come from questionable origins.

And in the spirit of this thread, I will post pics of my frogs when I get a chance. There is definitely some variability both in terms of intensity of orange, as well as the amount of black. All are beautiful frogs.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)




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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)




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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)




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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

The promised pics a few months late, but here they are. They are all distinguishable based off of the amount of black on their feet, as well as the pattern on their throats and bellies. Wish I was a better photographer and could capture the differences. I have determined that I have a group of 2.3. Females are about 33% longer, but probably double the mass. I've had 5 clutches (29,18,17,10,32). Only 18 have made it to tadpole stage. All but one tadpole look like they are going to make it to froglet.


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