# what is the deal with mixing frogs?



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.

isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs? 

people breed things to get better color and traits they like.

there are people who like to keep wild varieties of shrimps and those who like the new fancy ones. i guess what i'm asking is why people are so against it in dart frogs, but don't bat an eye with other animals.


----------



## Yobosayo (Sep 27, 2009)

popcorn time


----------



## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

The search function will bring up all the answers you seek.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

GRIMM said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html


sorry i meant creating hybrids. i did read the stickies on having different kinds in the same enclosure.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Why do people see the barrel of the gun, yet step into the clearing anyway, arms waving and screaming, "shoot Meee! Over Here!!"?
This is so done to death. Please, do your homework. It is obvious you have not used the search function or spent any time at all researching and reading.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to put on my raincoat to prepare for the bloodbath!


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Why do people see the barrel of the gun, yet step into the clearing anyway, arms waving and screaming, "shoot Meee! Over Here!!"?
> This is so done to death. Please, do your homework. It is obvious you have not used the search function or spent any time at all researching and reading.
> Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to put on my raincoat to prepare for the bloodbath!


i'm not trying to start a flame war, as i said, i don't have feelings either way, i just want an honest answer that isn't full of rage... which is what is already starting.

btw, where is the search feature? i have looked for it and all i have seen is the threads that show up when you start a new ones (i read those).


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The search feature is located at the top of every page. It is in the green bar.


----------



## guppygal (Aug 23, 2007)

vespers_ said:


> sorry i meant creating hybrids. i did read the stickies on having different kinds in the same enclosure.


Basically, it's an effort to keep dart frogs pure, as opposed to snakes, which have been crossed for different color patterns. PDF hobbyists, as you have noticed, are extremely rabid about mixing frogs. They will YELL at you and call you names. I think you've seen it in several posts.

There are other reasons as well. Some pdfs don't play well with others; some get too stressed out and 'croak', so to speak. The frogs aren't cheap, so it's best to choose a frog you like and learn everything you can about it. If you have a water feature, odds are that a sexed pair will breed. As long as you have the same kind of parent frog, the egg to tadpole to froglet experience is pretty awesome.

No, we don't mix because of some kid who wants to see a hybrid, and then try to sell it as a bonafide morph. Poison dart frogs are 'jewels of the rainforest' and we want to keep it that way within the hobby.

I can't say that we all don't mix. I'm sure you've been following my thread on my beautiful new tank with some neat features. It is unfortunate that most of the posters berate me for my choice of inhabitants rather than focus on the tank.

That's about it in a nutshell. Most definitely, follow the more experienced hobbyists' advice and look up the links.

good luck!
kristi
8yrs in the pdf hobby


----------



## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> sorry i meant creating hybrids. i did read the stickies on having different kinds in the same enclosure.


It boils down people wanting to keep bloodlines pure and as they occur naturally in the wild. Preserving the beauty that evolution gave us. I like the fact that people in the dart hobby dont feel the urge to create mutts like everything else out there...At least the majority dont anyways.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

guppygal said:


> Basically, it's an effort to keep dart frogs pure, as opposed to snakes, which have been crossed for different color patterns. PDF hobbyists, as you have noticed, are extremely rabid about mixing frogs. They will YELL at you and call you names. I think you've seen it in several posts.
> 
> There are other reasons as well. Some pdfs don't play well with others; some get too stressed out and 'croak', so to speak. The frogs aren't cheap, so it's best to choose a frog you like and learn everything you can about it. If you have a water feature, odds are that a sexed pair will breed. As long as you have the same kind of parent frog, the egg to tadpole to froglet experience is pretty awesome.
> 
> ...


ah i see, i just find the different view towards hybrids in dart frogs versus other animals a little strange. so there isn't some kind of biological reason behind it ex: weak frogs etc...?

i did see your thread and the comments, and was a little taken aback by it. i can understand stress related problems and all that and it definitely makes sense, but it can be done properly (with a load of effort) from what i have read.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

GRIMM said:


> It boils down people wanting to keep bloodlines pure and as they occur naturally in the wild. Preserving the beauty that evolution gave us. I like the fact that people in the dart hobby dont feel the urge to create mutts like everything else out there...At least the majority dont anyways.



and they certainly are beautiful . it's interesting to see the differences in the views of the different communities ex: dart frog people wanting to keep them pure versus shrimp people wanting to create new shrimp.

thanks for the replies everyone!


----------



## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Yobosayo said:


> popcorn time


LOL ^

I know alot of ppl say don't do it and I can see the problem if you have similar species. ie; if you have Azureus and cobalt tincs in the same tank, theres a chance they may breed creating hybrids.

I don't see an issue with different species, ie. thumbnails and leucs, etc. I mean, an azureus is in no way going to breed with an imitator or a vent.

That being said I have seen multiple species being kept in tanks like NAIB and I dont see the problem. (I know the "yeah but they have the experience to do that" comments coming).

BS i say! They have the same issues that we all have, they just have a larger staff and a bigger backroom.

I currently have a trio of Azureus and a group of vents in one of my 40b verts and all are doing well. I never see the vents on the bottom of the tank, they absolutely love being up in the broms. On the flip side, the Azureus have never really climbed up the tank. They always stay on the bottom searching for springtails. Once I saw one up on a branch but it fell as they aren't the best climbers.

Bottom line, IMO, is trying to stay away from the interbreeding but if you have a large enough tank I say go for it... mix it up. My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis and I can just hear the flames coming on that one but I don't see the issue. Ther terribis are big, the day geckos wont eat them and everyone will be happy.


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

JaredJ said:


> My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis and I can just hear the flames coming on that one but I don't see the issue. Ther terribis are big, the day geckos wont eat them and everyone will be happy.


You're planning on putting 6 terribilis in a tank with an 18*16 inch floor space (before background takes some up)?


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Some are against mixing because they honestly believe they are going to someday repopulate the wild with their frogs. The frogs are not in danger of extinction, their habitat is. So, there won't be anywhere to put them, and they probably wouldn't survive anyhow being captive bred. 

Some are against mixing, because they are sheep. They read that mixing is bad, so their opinion is that it is bad. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. 

Then there is the third group of anti mixing people........

Because of deforestation, there is a really good chance that these frogs may some day disappear from the wild because their natural habitat is no longer there. So, in what could be loosely considered a conservation effort, this group wants to keep all of the lines pure so there are prime examples of each frog around for the future. Different Morphs of the same species are really all the same family of frog, but their coloration differs from locale to locale. This is the reason that this group wants to keep the morphs seperate and keep as much locality data as possible, so it is available in the future. 

Sorry that this is not explained better. Mixing always leads to discussion of Hybrids. Not all people that have mixed enclosures are irresponsible as they would have you believe. And having a mixed enclosure doesn't mean that person is going to unleash hybrids into the gene pool. 

A mixed enclosure is NOT something that should be attempted by someone until they have experience with each of the species to be housed together. This will lead to less failure by knowing how to detect issues. You MUST know the normal behaviour of the frogs first. 

And if a person does have a mixed enclosure, they MUST be responsible with the offspring in regards to the work of the third group above.


----------



## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> LOL ^
> 
> I know alot of ppl say don't do it and I can see the problem if you have similar species. ie; if you have Azureus and cobalt tincs in the same tank, theres a chance they may breed creating hybrids.
> 
> ...


I have a ton of experience mixing species and I would highly recommend against this combination. Grandis are some of the most curious and aggressive geckos in the genus and they do prey on small lizards/frogs in the wild. Even if the Terribilis are too big to eat they can still get injured/harrased by the Grandis.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> I currently have a trio of Azureus and a group of vents in one of my 40b verts and all are doing well.
> 
> My other 40b vert currently has a pair of Giant day geckos in it but soon with have a group of 6 terribilis .


You are an idiot!! Not because of the mixed enclosures. But because of the size of the enclosures. That is irresponsible and just plain stupid.


----------



## Ross (Feb 10, 2008)




----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Why do people see the barrel of the gun, yet step into the clearing anyway, arms waving and screaming, "shoot Meee! Over Here!!"?


Why do you have to shoot everyone that asks the question? I, for one, completely understand and support your(not referring to you specifically Doug) wanting to keep bloodlines pure. And I, for one, would never introduce hybrids into the hobby. If I want to keep three male Terriblis in a 75 gallon enclosure and one is yellow, one is mint, and one is orange (just an example). How does it effect the hobby if proper husbandry methods are used and the frogs are fat, healthy and stress free?


----------



## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

vespers_ said:


> so i am extremely new to the whole dart frog thing (in fact i don't own any yet and i'm doing research to see if i want to keep them) and i've seen a whole lot of rage about mixing frogs. what i haven't seen though, is a concrete reason why people are so against it. i don't have any feelings for or against this, i just want to know why people don't like it so much.
> 
> isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such? in the shrimp breeding industry, people breed crazy mixed shrimps all the time until they get a nice one and then breed it out until they get a "new" kind of shrimp. what is the different between this and doing the same with frogs?
> 
> ...



Before you get flamed by these boards too much, let me save you some headache:

IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION.

There is no hard scientific data to back either school of thought, and personally, I don't see any problem with mixing species.

The issue tends to arise, esp with exotics that have LOCALE specifics (ie same species but diff locales ARE diff even though they can be bred together). People like to keep the "pure" locales separate. I'm all for this but I don't see any reason why people can't ALSO create hybrids.

The issue I think most people have with it is that it dilutes the market and at times it will become hard to tell what exactly you are buying. However, I think this argument is utter bullshit tbh; if you are EXPERIENCED in the field then you will buy from a reputable dealer and not have a problem....if you are not experienced then it doesn't matter.


Just my 2 cents; I see nothing wrong with mixing as long as you are open about it if you try to sell your animals. _*Someone lieing about his mixed animals and selling them as "true" locales is a scammer (or unlikely, but possibly unaware)....but that has NOTHING to do with the mixing of the frogs themselves.*_ 

HOWEVER, as others have pointed out on this thread: There are correct and incorrect ways to mix. As has been said in this thread, and quoted by SCOTT RICHARDSON above.....mixing that many frogs in those tank sizes is plain dumb. Not because of the mixing of species but because of the lack of space/environment htey have.

Mixing geckos with frogs as well, not a wise idea....esp taking their sizes into consideration.

*
AS A GENERAL RULE: IF YOU PLAN ON MIXING MAKE SURE THEY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME REQUIREMENTS, THE ANIMALS ARE THE SAME SIZE, AND THE ENCLOSURE IS *MORE THAN BIG ENOUGH* FOR THE ANIMALS. IN A MIXED TANK YOU NEED **MUCH MORE SPACE** THAN YOU WOULD IF THE ANIMALS WERE NOT MIXED. and DO NOT MIX UNTIL YOU ARE VERY EXPERIENCED. *

You might THINK they are doing fine, but until you are truly experienced you don't have the ABILITY to see when something is wrong. They don't always show problems; in fact they usually HIDE problems.



EDIT: As a side note, I would like to point out that genetic mixing is the preference in nature. The more varied the genetic pool, the better the resulting animals tend to be. I do not understand the desire to "keep nature pure" by many keepers....nature itself is always evolving. If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me. I am a keeper / forum member of several different exotics and although this attitude changes from animal to animal, there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS whatsoever. It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> Why do you have to shoot everyone that asks the question? I, for one, completely understand and support your(not referring to you specifically Doug) wanting to keep bloodlines pure. And I, for one, would never introduce hybrids into the hobby. If I want to keep three male Terriblis in a 75 gallon enclosure and one is yellow, one is mint, and one is orange (just an example). How does it effect the hobby if proper husbandry methods are used and the frogs are fat, healthy and stress free?


I didn't shoot anyone. I don't believe I attacked in any way or said anything for or against mixing. I merely pointed out in a comical way that you may want to research this before opening yourself up to the inevitable attacks. Why do I say inevitable attacks? Because if you have read a single one of the many, many, mixing threads on here, you've seen it. 
I know you said you're not referring to me, specifically. I'm just pointing out that I am unarmed and not holding the gun. I'm just sitting on the sidelines in my raincoat waiting for someone to pass the popcorn!


----------



## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

Look up my first post...I asked this same question about a month ago and got very angry members fighting over the fact that I kept more than one species together that should be showing aggression but I haven't seen any of them acting aggressive. I do however have a back up plan if I do start witnessing them being aggressive. Good luck! =)

BMcDarts


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

EvilLost said:


> There is no hard scientific data to back either school of thought, and personally, I don't see any problem with mixing species.


Uhh... what? Have you not read _any_ of the recent posts where Ed has posted links to journals concerning out breeding depression?



EvilLost said:


> *
> AS A GENERAL RULE: IF YOU PLAN ON MIXING MAKE SURE THEY HAVE EXACTLY THE SAME REQUIREMENTS, THE ANIMALS ARE THE SAME SIZE. *


You would rather have leucs and azureus in the same tank than imitators (which in a big enough, well designed enough tank will stay in the upper reaches) with terribilis (which will stay on the ground level)? Please don't give mixing advice to noobies if you haven't researched all of the issues and/or don't know what you're talking about.



vespers_ said:


> isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such?


No. Despite the breed of dog, a dog is the same species and is a cross breed. So first, crossing a lab and a poodle still results in Canis lupus. Crossing a tinc and a leuc results in a true hybrid like a liger or a mule. Also, a breed of dog is something that has been selectively bred by humans for certain traits. By breeding different dogs together you're screwing with a human invention. Even if you breed two different morphs of tinctorius together many (most) occur in isolated populations from morph to morph, so really you're screwing with evolution.... Many of us think that's a pretty big difference.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."


You're not invited!!
People like you and Jellyman are the reason there is such a debate on the subject.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

EvilLost said:


> Before you get flamed by these boards too much, let me save you some headache:
> 
> IT IS A MATTER OF OPINION.
> 
> ...


ah this helps put it into perspective. i can see the reasoning for both sides, but if you aren't trying to screw people with your hybrids and it doesn't hurt them, why not keep them and enjoy them?

if you aren't selling them as something they aren't is it really hurting anyone? you can keep your wild varieties and have your non wild ones and enjoy both of them.


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

vespers_ said:


> ah this helps put it into perspective. i can see the reasoning for both sides, but if you aren't trying to screw people with your hybrids and it doesn't hurt them, why not keep them and enjoy them?
> 
> if you aren't selling them as something they aren't is it really hurting anyone? you can keep your wild varieties and have your non wild ones and enjoy both of them.


As has been said many times before - what happens in 2 years when you decide to get out of the hobby?


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vespers_ said:


> ah this helps put it into perspective. i can see the reasoning for both sides, but if you aren't trying to screw people with your hybrids and it doesn't hurt them, why not keep them and enjoy them?
> 
> if you aren't selling them as something they aren't is it really hurting anyone? you can keep your wild varieties and have your non wild ones and enjoy both of them.


The argument is more like this:

The life of a frog usually outlasts the average lifespan of the hobby in a hobbyist's life. A majority (granted, there are exceptions, but of those I've spoken to, even those with mixed tanks fall into the majority) don't want to work with hybrids/outcrossed frogs. There is seriously no market for them. So, you cross your frogs for your own benefit, then whatever comes up in your life, you ahve to get out of the hobby, and no one wants your frogs. People suspect that the person will label the crossed frogs as a pure bred frog to be able to sell the frog and that could polute the pure breeds in the hobby.

I'm not saying that's what would _actually_ happen... but that's the argument.

Edit: Chris beat me too it... and said it a lot better than I did anyway


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> No. Despite the breed of dog, a dog is the same species and is a cross breed. So first, crossing a lab and a poodle still results in Canis lupus. Crossing a tinc and a leuc results in a true hybrid like a liger or a mule. Also, a breed of dog is something that has been selectively bred by humans for certain traits. By breeding different dogs together you're screwing with a human invention. Even if you breed two different morphs of tinctorius together many (most) occur in isolated populations from morph to morph, so really you're screwing with evolution.... Many of us think that's a pretty big difference.


well if they can breed then they must be the same species no? dogs were probably a bad example for the hybrid thing but not for the selective breeding. dogs were once wolves, and were selectively bred by people to produce certain traits and became dogs. look at pure bred dogs, most of them have horrible health problems and such from being inbred and bred with small gene pool. that to me, is wrong, but it is done all the time (with many animals) and i'm sure it is done very often to keep these so called "pure frogs". 

but if you can produce a healthy hybrid without health problems for your own enjoyment and you aren't trying to sell them as something they aren't, is it wrong? people breed fancy shrimp all the time, and then there are purists who keep only the wild forms of the shrimp. isn't there a place for both?


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> As has been said many times before - what happens in 2 years when you decide to get out of the hobby?


this is true... i guess it comes down to a responsibility thing...


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

As a proponent of mixed enclosures done correctly, I will tell you there is no reason to want to produce hybrids. 

With snakes and lizards, you selectively breed for traits of each, and get rainbow colors. 

This does not happen with frogs. You would think it would because of the colors. However, most hybrids are quite muted in color. Or just oddly colored. 

There is no monetary value in hybrid frogs


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vespers_ said:


> well if they can breed then they must be the same species no? dogs were probably a bad example for the hybrid thing but not for the selective breeding. dogs were once wolves, and were selectively bred by people to produce certain traits and became dogs. look at pure bred dogs, most of them have horrible health problems and such from being inbred and bred with small gene pool. that to me, is wrong, but it is done all the time (with many animals) and i'm sure it is done very often to keep these so called "pure frogs".


No. tinctorius and leucomelas and auratus can all interbreed, but they're no the same species. pumilio and vicentei and escudo can all interbreed. bassleri and pepperi can interbreed. I'm willing to bet benedicta, uakarii, duellmani, fantastica, reticulata, and summersi can all interbreed. These are all different species.

This hobby discourages line breeding. That's why when you see a chocolate leuc or a no-spot cintronella hobbyists encourage breeding those animals with a "normal" individual of the same locality. We also encourage mixing bloodlines as long as it's proven that the frogs originate from the same population of frogs.



vespers_ said:


> but if you can produce a healthy hybrid without health problems for your own enjoyment and you aren't trying to sell them as something they aren't, is it wrong? people breed fancy shrimp all the time, and then there are purists who keep only the wild forms of the shrimp. isn't there a place for both?


There may come a time when purists and hybridists can coexists in the dart frog hobby. Right now the hobby is way too small (IMO) for that to happen. Although if it ever _does_ happen I'll be leaving the forums and associating personally only with those purists I knew before the hybrids happen, and those that these people can put me in touch with. But as has been said (at least twice in this thread alone), the frogs' lives usually outlast most people in the hobby. And when that time comes, and these frogs that were intended for your own enjoyment need a new home, and no one wants to take them... what are you going to do?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> well if they can breed then they must be the same species no? dogs were probably a bad example for the hybrid thing but not for the selective breeding. dogs were once wolves, and were selectively bred by people to produce certain traits and became dogs. look at pure bred dogs, most of them have horrible health problems and such from being inbred and bred with small gene pool. that to me, is wrong, but it is done all the time (with many animals) and i'm sure it is done very often to keep these so called "pure frogs".
> 
> but if you can produce a healthy hybrid without health problems for your own enjoyment and you aren't trying to sell them as something they aren't, is it wrong? people breed fancy shrimp all the time, and then there are purists who keep only the wild forms of the shrimp. isn't there a place for both?


You are completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that they can and have, leaked out into the hobby. I saw it pointed out a couple of times and you are not acknowledging it. What happens when the keeper/breeder is involved in a fatal car accident? Family or whoever could take them into a pet shop not realizing what they are doing.
Or what happens when the breeder just decides they are done with the hobby? Think about it. Are you prepared just kill the frogs you've raised from babies? I don't think so.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> You are completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that they can and have, leaked out into the hobby. I saw it pointed out a couple of times and you are not acknowledging it. What happens when the keeper/breeder is involved in a fatal car accident? Family or whoever could take them into a pet shop not realizing what they are doing.
> Or what happens when the breeder just decides they are done with the hobby? Think about it. Are you prepared just kill the frogs you've raised from babies? I don't think so.


well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time). i think the buyer shares in the responsibility here too... we all know you can't always just trust what the seller says.

if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vespers_ said:


> well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time).
> 
> if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.


We've seen in the past (even just within the past couple of years) that there are too many people who don't have said responsibility. It's a lot easier if you just don't do it.

And you're still ignoring one awesome point. You breed them for yourself. But almost no one else wants them. So when it comes to the point where you have to get rid of them and you try selling them to a few different people and you're open and honest about "yeah, these are hybrids" and you get turned down repeatedly, but there's just no way you can keep these frogs anymore... what are you going to do? It's easy to say right now "yeah, I'll be responsible and I won't lie about the origin of my frogs," but when you actually put yourself in that kind of situation... what do you do? You're basically down to, kill the frogs yourself, give them to a pet store (which is still usually a death sentence), or lie about whether or not they're a hybrid.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time).
> 
> if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.


Yes, it is. You are not even doing this yet, and you have already admitted that you will release them to the public. How is that taking any responsibility at all for your "experiment"? You have already relinquished control of your polluted bloodline even before you have created it. Now you have no idea what happens to your "Frankenstein". All we know is that you are already prepared to turn him loose on an unsuspecting town.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Call the Frog Police! Captain Jake needs to take this guy downtown!


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> We've seen in the past (even just within the past couple of years) that there are too many people who don't have said responsibility. It's a lot easier if you just don't do it.
> 
> And you're still ignoring one awesome point. You breed them for yourself. But almost no one else wants them. So when it comes to the point where you have to get rid of them and you try selling them to a few different people and you're open and honest about "yeah, these are hybrids" and you get turned down repeatedly, but there's just no way you can keep these frogs anymore... what are you going to do? It's easy to say right now "yeah, I'll be responsible and I won't lie about the origin of my frogs," but when you actually put yourself in that kind of situation... what do you do? You're basically down to, kill the frogs yourself, give them to a pet store (which is still usually a death sentence), or lie about whether or not they're a hybrid.


well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free... when i wanted to get rid of my fish, i gave them away to local hobbyists from a forum for free because they aren't really worth anything. darts are usually worth more than a lot of fish, but hybrids aren't.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Yes, it is. You are not even doing this yet, and you have already admitted that you will release them to the public. How is that taking any responsibility at all for your "experiment"? You have already relinquished control of your polluted bloodline even before you have created it. Now you have no idea what happens to your "Frankenstein". All we know is that you are already prepared to turn him loose on an unsuspecting town.


you make it sound like a very dramatic disaster... if the person receiving the frog is responsible and knowledgeable and they know the frog's history, i don't see problem.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

vespers_ said:


> well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free... when i wanted to get rid of my fish, i gave them away to local hobbyists from a forum for free because they aren't really worth anything. darts are usually worth more than a lot of fish, but hybrids aren't.


Where most of us have the objective of breeding our frogs (a well-kept frog should breed even if we don't try), why would we want something that we couldn't breed? Or does that mean that the hobbyist you're pawning off your creations to plans to breed your hybrids?

How certain are you/we that the hobbyist you give your frogs to will maintain the same moral level and be honest about those frogs once he has acquired them? Or at that point would it just not matter to you since... well... you're leaving the hobby?


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free... when i wanted to get rid of my fish, i gave them away to local hobbyists from a forum for free because they aren't really worth anything. darts are usually worth more than a lot of fish, but hybrids aren't.


There lies a big problem..... A pet store takes them for free. They are just going to sell them as dart frogs. A guy buys them, looks at pictures on-line. "oh, these are New River Tincs." They breed! Guy joins Dendroboard. Post..New River Tinc froglets for sale. They are actually a hybrid

They just entered the bloodline


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Where most of us have the objective of breeding our frogs (a well-kept frog should breed even if we don't try), why would we want something that we couldn't breed? Or does that mean that the hobbyist you're pawning off your creations to plans to breed your hybrids?
> 
> How certain are you/we that the hobbyist you give your frogs to will maintain the same moral level and be honest about those frogs once he has acquired them? Or at that point would it just not matter to you since... well... you're leaving the hobby?


true enough, you can't really know what they will do unless you know them well.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> you make it sound like a very dramatic disaster... if the person receiving the frog is responsible and knowledgeable and they know the frog's history, i don't see problem.


That is my point. You are refusing to take any responsibility for releasing them to the public and diluting the bloodlines. In one breath you say you will take responsibility and in the next you have already released them into the hobby and you don't care what your experiment will do to our hobby. This is completely selfish and as Irresponsible as you can possibly get.


----------



## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

vespers_ said:


> well granted i can't say i know much about the demand for hybrid frogs, but i'm sure you could find people who would take them for free...


This has happened recently. Someone in PA purchased some frogs that were hybrids at the Hamburg show. That person moved and pawned them off on a friend that offered them to anyone on DB that would take them. The person that took them was performing an act of *charity*. So basically someone gets there 18 months of friends hyping up there cool tank and then has to extend an olive branch to anyone who will take them because they can no longer keep them.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

PantMan said:


> This has happened recently. Someone in PA purchased some frogs that were hybrids at the Hamburg show. That person moved and pawned them off on a friend that offered them to anyone on DB that would take them. The person that took them was performing an act of *charity*. So basically someone gets there 18 months of friends hyping up there cool tank and then has to extend an olive branch to anyone who will take them because they can no longer keep them.


We (the hobby) got lucky on that one as they went to a responsible party who will keep them without breeding them.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

EvilLost 
Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 68 
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts 

Rescued some frogs, could use some guidance 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey all,

PHOTOS HERE: https://picasaweb.google.com/Mani.Ar...6EpM2siruNqQE#

I rescued a trio of frogs a little while back and they are my first PDFs. I did not get any other info on them....but I have also been following these boards for awhile.

Anyway, long story short: I have been feeding them fruit flies (D.Mela) and springtails for the past few weeks. Their tank was open-screen top (one of the tall exo-terra with the opening door and front vent) so I covered it with plastic wrap (there is still a front vent) and spray it lightly daily. Humidity is ~80-90% and temps ride right around 74-78. 

For the past few days I have been feeding exclusively springtails (my D.Mela culture died and I don't have my next batch just yet). Is it ok to feed them springtails exclusively? They are so easy to culture and the frogs are devouring them. Not the fruit flies are hard but the springtails literally take no effort...also, I am not sure how often to feed but I basically have been putting in more springtails about every other day when I see no more in the tank.

Anyway, the frogs have been active, eating, and seemingly healthy (but as I said its my first set of frogs so I don't have much to base it off). [There are 2 orange frogs and 1 green frog (separate tanks). The orange frogs are EXTREMELY active and not very shy at all. The green frog is always, always hiding and I see him at best once a week.


So, few questions:
1) Can you guys ID my frogs? (pics attached) sizewise they are about the size of my thumbnail
-species? locale (if applicable)? SEXES? 
2) Today, I saw the larger one trying to mount the smaller one (but the smaller one wasn't having any of that!) I have NOT heard any kind of calling. I watched them for a good while and it was very clear the larger one continuously chased the smaller one around trying to mount it and the smaller one would brush him away. 

I'm assuming this means my larger frog is a male. Does this mean my smaller frog is female? Or could I have 2 males? (Ie would the larger male just try to mount a smaller male if noone else is around?) How else could I tell their sexes? 

3) Any general husbandry comments appreciated. I'm well familiar with exotics, just new to the frogs. 

4) If they are mating, can anyone direct me to a thread/info on what to look out and how to proceed? I have broms in their enclosure but I'm not sure what to look for? And how noticeable would the calling be? Is it possible I simply haven't heard it? (I have many other animals, including birds that sing throughout the day)


Thanks for the advice! 


Vespers, the expert you are taking advise from didn't have any experience yesterday. he only know his frogs are orange ones and a green one in SEPERATE TANKS. he doesn't even mix.


----------



## PantMan (Dec 10, 2009)

Thanks Scott, you saved me a lot of time. Although I am not a fan of mixing I do appreciate and respect the hobbyist that do it responsibly and take offense to people that send the wrong message about mixing. 
Well done sir.


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> You are completely disregarding and ignoring the fact that they can and have, leaked out into the hobby. I saw it pointed out a couple of times and you are not acknowledging it. What happens when the keeper/breeder is involved in a fatal car accident? Family or whoever could take them into a pet shop not realizing what they are doing.
> Or what happens when the breeder just decides they are done with the hobby? Think about it. Are you prepared just kill the frogs you've raised from babies? I don't think so.


Correct

If you all 'must' know, I for one keep an nice short list of people I wont buy from....after hearing about their 'opinions' on DB [most of which are NOT from experienced keepers]

This OP question is one that is asked 90% of the time from someone new and trying to understand. Yeah the forum hobby is rough on this question but most/all experienced keepers know why....they are just too darn uninterested in answering this question forever....so dont post.

Keep the rest of this discussion civil folks....or it ends.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

PantMan said:


> Thanks Scott, you saved me a lot of time. Although I am not a fan of mixing I do appreciate and respect the hobbyist that do it responsibly and take offense to people that send the wrong message about mixing.
> Well done sir.


Just because some of us do keep mixed enclosures, it doesn't mean that we do not respect the efforts of the "purists" of the hobby. My actions don't impede on those efforts. 

I have kept tincs and auratus off and on over the years, and they are still my favorite. One day, I want to build a rack like Marty's and want a pair of each morph of both. In order to do that, I need for all the morphs to still be around.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> That is my point. You are refusing to take any responsibility for releasing them to the public and diluting the bloodlines. In one breath you say you will take responsibility and in the next you have already released them into the hobby and you don't care what your experiment will do to our hobby. This is completely selfish and as Irresponsible as you can possibly get.


that's not what i said. i said that you need to take responsibility to the extent that you can. you inform a potential buyer/receiver of what they are receiving and try to find a responsible buyer. beyond that, there is not much you can do, but that's the same thing in any business transaction. after that, it is the buyer's responsibility to be responsible. if someone wants hybrids, they will get them... if it means buying your hybrids or buying "pure" frogs and creating their own, they will get them.


anyway, i appreciate the responses and everyone for helping me understand this issue... oh and for pointing out the search function. i don't log in unless i am about to post so i never saw it >.<


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

EvilLost said:


> EDIT: As a side note, I would like to point out that genetic mixing is the preference in nature. The more varied the genetic pool, the better the resulting animals tend to be. I do not understand the desire to "keep nature pure" by many keepers....nature itself is always evolving. If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me. I am a keeper / forum member of several different exotics and although this attitude changes from animal to animal, there is NO SCIENTIFIC BASIS whatsoever. It is purely opinion. Until SOLID EVIDENCE can be shown one way or another, I will continue siding with the "pro-mixers."


why do I have a strong feeling of Deja vu? 

Actually you are entirely incorrect in your premise with the argument above.. Nature does not always desire diversity... for example localized inbreeding that provides a selective advantage in known from a number of taxa including but not limited to wolves, domestic mice and of course frogs.. You may be surprised at how deleterious out breeding depression is to a population and it can be enough of a threat to result in localized extinctions. If you search outbreeding depression, you can find the many links to peer reviewed publications that I have cited in the past. 

There is a second flaw in your argument.. most of the locals we are discussing have not had contact for thousands of years (I have provided the citations for this in the past as well). You are also hinting that speciation is the result of hybridization or crossbreeding events.... this is actually an extremely rare method of speciation and more often than not, they do not result in a viable species... for example some of the parthenogenic whiptails are believed to only be stable because the two species continue to hybridize (the hybrid population would fail over several generations) and produce new generations. 

Some comments,

Ed


----------



## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

The op stated at the very beginning of this post that if its ok to mix dogs it should be ok to mix frogs. But who says its ok to mix dogs? How many reputable dog breeders are mixing to make mutts? I don't think so....cat breeders...nope not those either. So keep your cocker spaniel poodle mixes...but a mutt is a mutt. No mutt dogs and no mutt frogs.


----------



## Zorloc (Apr 6, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Some are against mixing because they honestly believe they are going to someday repopulate the wild with their frogs. The frogs are not in danger of extinction, their habitat is. So, there won't be anywhere to put them, and they probably wouldn't survive anyhow being captive bred.
> 
> Some are against mixing, because they are sheep. They read that mixing is bad, so their opinion is that it is bad. Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one.
> 
> ...


I know im a few pages late on this topic but honestly of all the threads i have read this is the best description of an answer that anyone in the hobby should give.

Thank you Scott

Sent from taptalk Sprint Evo


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

bshmerlie said:


> The op stated at the very beginning of this post that if its ok to mix dogs it should be ok to mix frogs. But who says its ok to mix dogs? How many reputable dog breeders are mixing to make mutts? I don't think so....cat breeders...nope not those either. So keep your cocker spaniel poodle mixes...but a mutt is a mutt. No mutt dogs and no mutt frogs.


no i didn't... i asked if this is a similar situation to the mixing of dogs. "isn't this kind of like breeding different kinds of dogs and such?" 

i also said later on that i am against the pure breeding of dogs when it gets to the point that pure bred dogs have huge health problems (ex: hip dysplasia). the fact is that mutts are actually healthier than pure breds...


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I see a lot of referencing fish and such, but for anyone who is not currently involved in fish, you may not realize, but MANY groups of fish have a lot of breeders dedicated to keeping species and even localities pure. Cichlids, killifish, and many livebearers are all commonly kept by serious hobbyists to be locality specific, and as a result, some of these fish are now ONLY found in captivity. It's not a big stretch to imagine that this may be the end result of many of these frogs. And deforestation is not the only threat to them. There could be every reason to suspect that habitat will be preserved.

As for hybridization...it's very common amongst fish and groups of reptiles in the hobby, and certainly possible with dart frogs. Even snakes of different genera have produced hybrids. And the unfortunate part is that once hybrids get out there, they tend to leak everywhere. I see Endler's livebearers, various dwarf and African cichlids, etc. everywhere labeled as per species, when they are clearly no longer pure. The breeders don't care, the stores don't know better, and the customers just think it looks pretty...then the customer ends up breeding it, and selling/giving them away as what they bought them as and so on. Just because you think you're responsible, and you think everyone else is responsible, it doesn't really work that way.

I'm not saying automatically don't do it. I definitely feel that in a large enough tank, mixes involving an arboreal thumbnail and terrestrial Dendrobates can work. But I think people get into it for the wrong reasons and under the wrong pretenses. Those aforementioned 40 verts are a good example. If, for example, the owner of the 150 who apparently sparked this thread had done something with a single locality arboreal/single locality terrestrial mix of distantly related species, I would see no problem with that if enough living space were provided for both species.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Ed said:


> why do I have a strong feeling of Deja vu?
> 
> for example localized inbreeding that provides a selective advantage in known from a number of taxa including but not limited to wolves, domestic mice and of course frogs..


from all that i have read/experienced, inbreeding is a bad thing and weakens the animals. animals that have been highly inbred have health problems are are much more fragile than other animals. eventually they will not survive. this goes from shrimp all the way to lions and tigers. generally breeders want to avoid it as much as possible...

how to you determine that the risk of outbreeding depression outweighs the risk of inbreeding depression?


----------



## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

EvilLost said:


> If you were to look at these same animals in 1000 years odds are that these locales would have crossbred and possibly even created new locales....you guys are ok with the "naturally created" locales, but not the "purposely bred" locales....it just does not make sense to me.


So, the mountain ranges that separate them will wear away in 1000 years? Man, my "Evolution of the Earth" master's class professor most have been completely wrong!


----------



## Dusted Fly (Apr 24, 2011)

Look at a dart frog. Most people will drop their jaw and say. "Wow! It's so tiny and pretty and/or colorful. Now it you look at a ball python, leopard gecko, crested gecko and look at the original imports you'll notice a plain brown. Yeah they're interesting but "Oh, this one has a bit of red/orange, or this one has an unique pattern, let's breed it to try and enhance thats characteristic.

Really, all I see is that there is no NEED to make a dart frog MORE spectacular. Other breeders (like reptile breeders) try to make a more "flashy" animal making it different and more desirable.

As already stated, mixing/hybridizing is merely a matter of opinion.
(didn't read through the whole thread so if this was already discussed sorry)


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> well that's why i said it takes responsibility on the part of the owner (and the buyer) to not advertise the frogs as something they aren't or buy frogs they haven't researched previously. i see it all the time with fish. people walk in and buy a fish without any clue what it is and then don't know what to do when it ends up being 4 feet long (yes it happens all the time). i think the buyer shares in the responsibility here too... we all know you can't always just trust what the seller says.
> 
> if you are open and tell people that they are hybrid frogs so people are prepared, is it such a big deal? it will always take a certain amount of responsibility.


First off this is not Fish, shrimp, snakes hobby what they do there in those hobbies and are OK with don't apply to this one with dart frogs. One of the first things I did researching this hobby was reading and searching what the opinions, standards and practices were and are how they were are applied to keeping dart frogs. 


What ever you see in fish, snakes, shrimp don't apply here. You are comparing apples to oranges, differant sets of opinions, standards and ideology. What ever you think is OK over there forget it, erase it from your mind and start dart frogs with a clean slate. One thing you have opened yourself out to is being a future hybrididiot with some of your post, not only will you find it difficult to be here on dendroboard, most will shun you, will not sell to you, and even some of the what can be considered by some responsible Pro-mixers will not deal with you. 

There were many things I had to erase from my mind having been in the reef hobby for 25+ years. I cannot compare hybrid or cross breed clownfish and say well they do it in reefing so why not darts. Different hobby, differant mind set, differant ideology on how the hobby works and is put in practice.


----------



## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> We (the hobby) got lucky on that one as they went to a responsible party who will keep them without breeding them.


I'm assuming you're talking about me (cant imagine this happened to someone else in the same state lol) so thank you Doug for the compliment and no they wont be bred, ever.

I don't get drawn into these discussions because no one wins in the end, many are quick to whine and call others "mean" and others put alot of effort into linking to past discussions and the posts are usually only skimmed over - ignoring the time that went into them.

I don't mix, I don't support hybrids in the slightest - I'm a responsible keeper. I only want *our* hobby to grow and be a healthy hobby. 

These discussions are just mindless circles of argument.


Thanks,
Hunter


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Azurel said:


> most will shun you, will not sell to you, and even some of the what can be considered by some responsible Pro-mixers will not deal with you.



The statement above is far from correct. I have purchased frogs and supplies from almost every sponsor on this forum and from at least a dozen members. Certainly there may be a select few that might do the above but I have yet to have my money turned down from any business or any member of this forum.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> The statement above is far from correct. I have purchased frogs and supplies from almost every sponsor on this forum and from at least a dozen members. Certainly there may be a select few that might do the above but I have yet to have my money turned down from any business or any member of this forum.


That is why there was "some" typed......To some money talks, BS walks....I wouldn't expect vendors to do so it in the least, it's there business how they feed their families. Members are differant story. But again it is their choice they make for themselves.

Me personally I wouldn't/won't do business with a person who creates hybrids. Money is not that important to me, but again that is my personal choice. We all have to make choices some will agree with the choices we/I/you make and some won't that's life......


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

vespers_ said:


> from all that i have read/experienced, inbreeding is a bad thing and weakens the animals. animals that have been highly inbred have health problems are are much more fragile than other animals. eventually they will not survive. this goes from shrimp all the way to lions and tigers. generally breeders want to avoid it as much as possible...
> 
> how to you determine that the risk of outbreeding depression outweighs the risk of inbreeding depression?


This is going to seem harsh, but it isn't intended that way. 

This tells me you have a poor or incomplete understanding of not only captive population management but how populations work in the wild.. This is not an uncommon discussion on the forum and hits the forum every couple of months.. I have posted a lot of literature links on the forum.. enough that I'm getting tired of doing so when a search on inbreeding and/or outbreeding discussion will pull up those threads. Outbreeding depression in captive populations is considered a big enough problem that the recommendation is to not do it unless there is absolutely no way other way to sustain the population.. in other words, so many deleterious problems have shown up that the population is no longer viable. We are no where close to that stage as of yet with any dendrobatids. 

In wild populations of animals, outbreeding depression can significantly affect growth, develeopment or survivial of not only eggs but juveniles or adults. It can take as long as 5 generations for the issues to surface (at which point it is too late to salvage the affected population).


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Azurel said:


> First off this is not Fish, shrimp, snakes hobby what they do there in those hobbies and are OK with don't apply to this one with dart frogs. One of the first things I did researching this hobby was reading and searching what the opinions, standards and practices were and are how they were are applied to keeping dart frogs.
> 
> 
> What ever you see in fish, snakes, shrimp don't apply here. You are comparing apples to oranges, differant sets of opinions, standards and ideology. What ever you think is OK over there forget it, erase it from your mind and start dart frogs with a clean slate. One thing you have opened yourself out to is being a future hybrididiot with some of your post, not only will you find it difficult to be here on dendroboard, most will shun you, will not sell to you, and even some of the what can be considered by some responsible Pro-mixers will not deal with you.
> ...


the whole point of this thread was me asking about why the dart frog hobby has such a hostile view regarding hybrids etc... when many other hobbies are open to the idea and actively encourage it. i have heard many good reasons for it and against it. that's all. i just wanted to know why out of curiosity. i am not leaning either way and i'm certainly not going to attack others over their views. i just wanted some clarification.

anyway, it's a little sad to say that i will be a "hybridiot" when i don't own any frogs at all and i'm nowhere near ready to own any. i'm just trying to learn so i can give my future frogs proper homes.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Ed said:


> This is going to seem harsh, but it isn't intended that way.
> 
> This tells me you have a poor or incomplete understanding of not only captive population management but how populations work in the wild.. This is not an uncommon discussion on the forum and hits the forum every couple of months.. I have posted a lot of literature links on the forum.. enough that I'm getting tired of doing so when a search on inbreeding and/or outbreeding discussion will pull up those threads. Outbreeding depression in captive populations is considered a big enough problem that the recommendation is to not do it unless there is absolutely no way other way to sustain the population.. in other words, so many deleterious problems have shown up that the population is no longer viable. We are no where close to that stage as of yet with any dendrobatids.
> 
> In wild populations of animals, outbreeding depression can significantly affect growth, develeopment or survivial of not only eggs but juveniles or adults. It can take as long as 5 generations for the issues to surface (at which point it is too late to salvage the affected population).


you're right, i'm no expert on the topic. i do know however that many breeders of animals will try to introduce new blood into the gene pool because inbreeding doesn't produce good results. this has been shown many, many times. in the wild, scientists are introducing animals from other areas into isolated populations to reduce the effects of inbreeding. ex: lions. there seems to be a much smaller body of research on outbreeding depression than on inbreeding depression and it has been said that it is hard to determine the effects of outbreeding depression. which is why i wondered where you draw the line... inbreeding is not good. period. it is a fact.

anyway, i will go read some of these articles. i have read one or two that you linked already. interesting reads.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> The statement above is far from correct. I have purchased frogs and supplies from almost every sponsor on this forum and from at least a dozen members. Certainly there may be a select few that might do the above but I have yet to have my money turned down from any business or any member of this forum.


That may be true. However, everyone knows my views. And while I believe it may be alright to keep one type of thumbs and one terrestrial species together in a larger well planned out enclosure; You talk about mixing whatever, and think hybrids are cool. 
I don't wish to disrespect the "purists" as I fully support their work. And with the exception of my display tank, I fully agree with them. 

So, I may be labelled as a pro-mixer, which is ok but not completely accurate.

But I do not want to be labelled in the same group as you.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The reason is because outbreeding depression is something that those translocations have caused to become noticed... and yes they can cause significant deleterious problems.. 

Inbreeding can be beneficial as it optimizes adaption through genetics to the local enviroment... as a classic example, mice that inhabit freezers develop thick coats.. this is a result of the population in the freezer adapting to the local enviroment.. they lose the coding for the normal coat.. 



As for a discussion on it, one of the articles I have linked most frequently http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands%202007.pdf 

You may also want to read up on hybrid dysgenesis... for example it can cause sterility when two populations of the same animal has been seperated and are then allowed to cross. See for example http://www.genetics.org/content/92/1/161.full.pdf


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> the whole point of this thread was me asking about why the dart frog hobby has such a hostile view regarding hybrids etc... when many other hobbies are open to the idea and actively encourage it. i have heard many good reasons for it and against it. that's all. i just wanted to know why out of curiosity. i am not leaning either way and i'm certainly not going to attack others over their views. i just wanted some clarification.
> 
> anyway, it's a little sad to say that i will be a "hybridiot" when i don't own any frogs at all and i'm nowhere near ready to own any. i'm just trying to learn so i can give my future frogs proper homes.


You know, you asked a pretty good question out of curiosity. The rest of the herp world does it, why don't we? 
I tried to give you the best answer you are going to get. Why? because every other week, someone new wants to set up a mixed tank that will produce hybrids. People are tired of hearing the question. I believe you got some good information, and Ed has pointed you in a good direction. 

Any other topic, you will get some helpful info from all. 

And, there is a multi species reference page in the general area. read it. 

And, a pastel snake looks totally out of place in a planted natural vivarium, where as a green tree python looks beautiful in the same set up just as nature made it. 
So, why bother.


----------



## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Scott Richardson said:


> So, I may be labelled as a pro-mixer, which is ok but not completely accurate.


Pretty sure there's a big difference between pro-mixing and pro-hybrid.... While there tends to be a correlation between the two groups, they are _necessarily_ correlated.


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> That may be true. However, everyone knows my views. And while I believe it may be alright to keep one type of thumbs and one terrestrial species together in a larger well planned out enclosure; You talk about mixing whatever, and think hybrids are cool.
> I don't wish to disrespect the "purists" as I fully support their work. And with the exception of my display tank, I fully agree with them.
> 
> So, I may be labelled as a pro-mixer, which is ok but not completely accurate.
> ...


What group would that be?


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> the whole point of this thread was me asking about why the dart frog hobby has such a hostile view regarding hybrids etc... when many other hobbies are open to the idea and actively encourage it. i have heard many good reasons for it and against it. that's all. i just wanted to know why out of curiosity. i am not leaning either way and i'm certainly not going to attack others over their views. i just wanted some clarification.
> 
> anyway, it's a little sad to say that i will be a "hybridiot" when i don't own any frogs at all and i'm nowhere near ready to own any. i'm just trying to learn so i can give my future frogs proper homes.


I am not saying you will be or are, but being open to it by your verbiage based on some of the post you made can open you to that perception, all based on what other hobbies do. What I am saying is forget what "they" do, it don't matter here. You cannot argue what they do is good for them so it should be good here that is my point. Research dart frogs as it's own hobby with it's own rules, guidelines, ideologies, and practices.

In a lot of cases hybrids are done for the sole purpose of MONEY in other hobbies. Take reefing for example they have stared to cross/hybrid/out-cross clown fish to the point of being ridiculous. Not because the natural clownfish and natural hybrids are not pretty or valuable, but they can make even more money selling man made color morphs. 

People are eating them up at $100-$400 a fish because they have to have the new in clownfish. But when looking at their reef tank with corals and inverts displayed to look like a natural reef, there are these fish that look out of place. Why? Because they don't belong there they are not natural. Are the pretty? Yes, but that don't make them right or natural just because they can breed.

Most people don't want this hobby to go the way of these other hobbies, these things can become a slippery slope. Once it is OK for hybrids, breeding everything with everything that will breed with it in the years to come nobody will beable to recognize the hobby they once loved and it has lost the thing that it was meant to. Having a piece of the rain forest in your home to enjoy and watching frogs in their natural state as nature intended.


This board is full of great knowledge and great hobbyist that are willing to give great advice. But for the advice and knowledge to sink in you have to forget the preconceived ideologies of other hobbies.

It is good to ask questions and keep asking them....I can say that there have been few things I have done that is as addictive as dart frogs so beware.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> What group would that be?


What is laughable is that is ok to feed mutated fruit flies and decorate with hybrid plant species but heaven forbid we have a hybrid frog. 

So everything else is fair game? Well as long as the frogs are pure. 

That would be an awesome new line. Black back leuc. Put me down for a trio!!! 

This group! ( All words straight out of your mouth. )


----------



## rob65 (Aug 27, 2009)

OMG this is so much more fun than listening to the radio or watching TV. It just goes on and on...never ending!


----------



## chadfarmer (Nov 2, 2008)

the deal is I like this hobby for this reason-- pure animals not something that some one want to create


when i buy an azuerus-- i get an azuerus that is healthy from the blood line ----if its not broke why try to fix it


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

HunterB said:


> I'm assuming you're talking about me (cant imagine this happened to someone else in the same state lol) so thank you Doug for the compliment and no they wont be bred, ever.
> 
> I don't get drawn into these discussions because no one wins in the end, many are quick to whine and call others "mean" and others put alot of effort into linking to past discussions and the posts are usually only skimmed over - ignoring the time that went into them.
> 
> ...


Yes Hunter, I was referring to you. Obviously we've never met but you have a respectable rep and I'm glad the frogs made it into responsible hands. You're quite welcome.
_These discussions are just mindless circles of argument._
I agree and I always mean to stay out of them and just sit back and watch. But then the OP always say something (I'm not going to say it), something that insists upon an answer. There! I even stayed P.C.


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

lincolnrailers said:


> So, the mountain ranges that separate them will wear away in 1000 years? Man, my "Evolution of the Earth" master's class professor most have been completely wrong!


Oh, evolution is just a theory you know.


----------



## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Tony said:


> Oh, evolution is just a theory you know.


TONY! We talked about this. Nothing controversial! I'm officially your moderator.

MY FREND GAVE ME THAT!


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

jeff r said:


> tony! We talked about this. Nothing controversial! I'm officially your moderator.
> 
> My frend gave me that!


i will hunt you!


----------



## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

> That's why when you see a chocolate leuc or a no-spot cintronella hobbyists encourage breeding those animals with a "normal" individual of the same locality.


I have always wondered about frogs like these, I mean I haven't really heard of a chocolate leuc until recently. Aren't alot of the tincs hybrids bred for pattern or color? 

I've always been curious about terribilis though. Is there really a mint or orange species in the wild? I thought wild terribilis were all like a golden yellow. If so, was the mint or orange from selective breeding?


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

JaredJ said:


> Aren't alot of the tincs hybrids bred for pattern or color?


No, they are found in nature in reproductively isolated populations. The D. tinctorius morphguide provides a good overview of the morphs and where they are found in nature.



JaredJ said:


> If so, was the mint or orange from selective breeding?


No again, as with _D.tinctorius_ they come from several distinct populations.


----------



## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Tony said:


> No, they are found in nature in reproductively isolated populations. The D. tinctorius morphguide provides a good overview of the morphs and where they are found in nature.
> 
> 
> 
> No again, as with _D.tinctorius_ they come from several distinct populations.


Cool! I didn't think they were natural.. thx


----------



## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Cool! I didn't think they were natural.. thx


and this is what most people are saying. They are cool, they are natural, don't screw it up!


----------



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

SmackoftheGods said:


> People suspect that the person will label the crossed frogs as a pure bred frog to be able to sell the frog and that could polute the pure breeds in the hobby.
> 
> I'm not saying that's what would _actually_ happen... but that's the argument.


Usually the hobbyist is a little more ethical. What I've seen usually happen is that the person at one point has to/want's to get out of the hobby and since there isn't a market for hybrids gives them to a local pet shop. He may or may not tell them the origin of the frog...usually doesn't matter. The pet shop sells it as a general PDF, or may try to ID it visually, or may give it a whole new designer name. When it's sold to a beginner hobbyist it's origins are completely washed. When they start doing research they come on this site and ask if someone can ID their "Blue-jean starburst" PDF.

*Sorry, this has already been mentioned, I jumped the gun before finishing the thread. What am I doing commenting on a hybrid thread anyway?*


----------



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> What is laughable is that is ok to feed mutated fruit flies and decorate with hybrid plant species but heaven forbid we have a hybrid frog.
> 
> So everything else is fair game? Well as long as the frogs are pure.
> 
> ...



Read the thread and put the quote in context. The point being made is that people like to talk a good talk about purity and natural environments when the whole hobby is a mixture of hybrid plants, mutant food sources, and non naturalistic enclosures. I'm in the hobby because it is fun. I'm not in it for the money. So yes, if a blue leuc becomes available I would certainly be interested in a trio whether they were wild caught or domestically breed(I believe that is the new PC term for captive bred).


----------



## train crash (Feb 8, 2009)

most people wouldent even dare mix dart frogs. personally i had to mix my dart frogs (splashbacks) with a nother species because his own family was attacking him. and 3 weeks on my 3 dart frogs and my one european green(bloody brown) tree frog are getting on fine. but when it come to mixing dart frogs i wouldent, purly because the frogs are worth more then most setups, you wouldent want them to get infected from others, im lucky that my euro seems to not even acknowledge the existance of the dart frogs.


----------



## auratusross (Jan 3, 2011)

Want a red...blue...green...yellow...orange...white...spotted...striped...etc frog? Fine you can have 1! No really you can! Found in the wild as nature intended! That is what makes this hobby different from your snake/gecko etc hobbies. We already have what they are trying to achieve! NATURAL wonders, each different from the next. Think of a colour or pattern and it is already in the hobby, the fact that these frogs look this way naturally is what is important and impressive to me personally. Mixing frog species/morphs does not benefit the hobby at all because the purer the bloodline to the wild the better because it is that that defines this from other hobbies. (a frog with as much information about where its bloodline originated from as possible to the wild, is valued 1000 times higher! compared to reptile hobbies where it seems the more UNNATURAL the more desirable) People dont want to see mixed frog tanks because this leads to hybrids which are exactly what the hobby as a whole is against because these frogs are from such limited populations as it is!, so ok maybe you have a quality set up, years experience etc and this leads to your mixed frogs breeding! What then? This is where there is more tension because there are so many points....
"i will cull every egg"....you wont find every egg, froglets pop up all the time in my vivs i never knew i had
"then i will cull those or keep them but wont breed off them"
Over time you will be over run and wont be able to keep every one and culling froglets is needless if you kept the frogs correctly in the first place
"i will sell to those who want to buy hybrids but i will inform them what they are"
it is inevitable once someone gets bored/goes university/has children/moves house/passes away/needs money that these frogs will have to go somewhere! the easiest way to do this is lie about what your frogs are!(if hybrid) as people do not want hybrid frogs so they get put back into the hobby labelled as what they are not! this is the problem, if people want an leucamelas thats is what they expect to buy! not a half auratus that looks more like one. 
"I will have only proven calling males so impossible to breed"
territorial fighting/stress/intimidation/deaths can and do occur from set ups this way so you are not putting the care of your frogs first! just because they are all male frogs they are from completely different places! even if they can live in the same habitat at same temps etc they are not the same! you wouldnt expect to go to the zoo and see jaguars lions, tigers, and cheetahs in the same enclosure and for the keepers to say well... we couldnt decide on one specie so we thought we would put all males together because we only have room for one field (viv) and anyway it dont matter there all cats anyway (frogs) 
This seems the attitude of most mixed tank keepers IMO they are labelling all frogs as the same...basically the example i just gave about the lions is how i see it, just because your doing it on a smaller scale (vivs) and with frogs and the frogs arent taking chunks out of each other it does not make it ok to put them through these same stresses IMO. 
No i dont think national goegraphic are gunna knock my door anytime soon and take me and my frogs to south america to repopulate the amazon, but i like poison dartfrogs for there natural beauty as they are found in the wild not as some bloke down the road wanted to play god or decided to lie to me what my frogs are because he wanted to make some cash when his mixed tank species started breeding or his washing machine just broke so needed money fast and his "morals" of not selling hybrids just went out the window! There is way more i could write on this but this is only my OPINION im sure you have yours! either way all the best ......ROSS


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

auratusross said:


> even if they can live in the same habitat at same temps etc they are not the same! you wouldnt expect to go to the zoo and see jaguars lions, tigers, and cheetahs in the same enclosure and for the keepers to say well... we couldnt decide on one specie so we thought we would put all males together because we only have room for one field (viv) and anyway it dont matter there all cats anyway (frogs)


good point. it would be weird to see that, but on the flip side, white tigers are not natural and don't exist in the wild (or not for long anyway). they have been created for zoos and entertainment and most people don't even realize it.


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

It seems that every new "generation" of hobbyists has to first not understand why the "old timers" try to enforce arbitrary rules about "hybrids" and mixing" on them, then argue with the "oldtimers" about their trying to be the police of the hobby. Then, if they survive in the hobby long enough, they general come to understand that this is actually supposed to be some fun for us and the eternal bickering doesn't account for much.

There are very few things that will get someone shunned from the dart frog hobby. The only fatal infraction I've seen was when someone stole frogs from a frog meet at a person's home. So the only real rule I've seen in the hobby is "don't steal my sh#t" (please edit if this is determined to be too much).

Everything else is a matter of personal ethics.

Good luck to you all, Richard.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> good point. it would be weird to see that, but on the flip side, white tigers are not natural and don't exist in the wild (or not for long anyway). they have been created for zoos and entertainment and most people don't even realize it.


Oh, you really have some research to do. And you should do it BEFORE making comments. 
The White Tigers in the zoo do not exist in the wild, they are a cross between a Siberian Tiger and a Bengel Tiger. Both species carry a white gene. 

1 in 10,000 Siberian Tigers ARE white.


----------



## Arpeggio (Jan 15, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> No. tinctorius and leucomelas and auratus can all interbreed, but they're no the same species. pumilio and vicentei and escudo can all interbreed. bassleri and pepperi can interbreed. I'm willing to bet benedicta, uakarii, duellmani, fantastica, reticulata, and summersi can all interbreed. These are all different species.
> 
> This hobby discourages line breeding. That's why when you see a chocolate leuc or a no-spot cintronella hobbyists encourage breeding those animals with a "normal" individual of the same locality. We also encourage mixing bloodlines as long as it's proven that the frogs originate from the same population of frogs.
> 
> ...


I'll join you.


----------



## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to put on my raincoat to prepare for the bloodbath!


don't forget to wash behind your ears!


wow 9 pages in less than a day? is that a record?


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Oh, you really have some research to do. And you should do it BEFORE making comments.
> The White Tigers in the zoo do not exist in the wild, they are a cross between a Siberian Tiger and a Bengel Tiger. Both species carry a white gene.
> 
> 1 in 10,000 Siberian Tigers ARE white.


isn't that what i said? the white tigers in zoos don't exist in the wild. bengal tigers and amur tigers will never meet in the wild. thus, they are created. you read a wiki (1 in 10,000 siberian tigers are white)... i wouldn't call that research, but anyway, i can quote wikipedia too "...the last white tiger ever seen in the wild was shot in 1958". there been white amur and bengal tigers, but not for a long, long time in the wild and none are currently in existence. 

yay for misunderstandings and jumping to the attack prematurely. bleh.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> good point. it would be weird to see that, but on the flip side, white tigers are not natural and don't exist in the wild (or not for long anyway). they have been created for zoos and entertainment and most people don't even realize it.


No, that is not what you said..... And yes, wikipedia is a quick source to get ammo for the BS cannon. 

The more you post, the more it is apparent just how much you need to learn. 

Dogs, Cats, Tigers.........Do you have any herpetocultural experience at all? Or do you just have a really big stack of National Geographic magazines, and recently saw an article on Dart Frogs and your search led you here. 

This thread isn't even about the original post any more. It is just you arguing with every single post. 

And for the record.........Kangaroos in the zoo don't live in the wild either. They live at the zoo.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> bengal tigers and amur tigers will never meet in the wild. thus, they are created..


Apparently you have never seen the movie Madagascar! If you had, you would know two things. 

Chris Rock plays a good Zebra, and

Zoo animals do go on vacation to the wild. 

So, how do you know they will never meet?


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

i don't think i've been arguing with people. i asked an honest question and got some pretty snide responses and some dueling between others i didn't respond to. my original question was why hybridization in other animals is not frowned upon like it is in dart frogs. it seems only natural to compare the views on hybridization in different hobbies and with other animals (and similar ones like snakes). you know it just as well as i do. you're just attacking me because you made a mistake and you need to save face.

i have no tried to start conflict, but when you attacked me like you did, i felt i had to correct you. i know you're trying to cover your own fail here by attacking me even more with your latest post, and i understand.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Apparently you have never seen the movie Madagascar! If you had, you would know two things.
> 
> Chris Rock plays a good Zebra, and
> 
> ...


i actually enjoyed those movies  i especially like the little lemur that almost gets eaten by the shark.

Google Image Result for http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000503719/polls_Madagascar_2_5410_764091_answer_6_xlarge.jpeg


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Sorry - that's now how it appears to the majority of us.

You've managed to get me to agree with Mr. Richardson - that's a rarity. 

s


vespers_ said:


> ... you know it just as well as i do. you're just attacking me because you made a mistake and you need to save face.
> 
> i have no tried to start conflict, but when you attacked me like you did, i felt i had to correct you. i know you're trying to cover your own fail here by attacking me even more with your latest post, and i understand.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I made no mistake, as there have been white tigers in the wild. Which you said there were not. Then even said there were and one was shot in the 1950's. If it was shot it did then exist. 

No one on this board keeps tigers in their vivariums. Or dogs, or cats, or snakes. or even poo flinging monkeys. 

My point is no one cares about what is going on in the other areas. 

You asked a question. You got an answer on the first page or two. Then you brought up lions and tigers. You forgot the bears....oh, my.


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

vespers_ said:


> i don't think i've been arguing with people. i asked an honest question and got some pretty snide responses and some dueling between others i didn't respond to. my original question was why hybridization in other animals is not frowned upon like it is in dart frogs. it seems only natural to compare the views on hybridization in different hobbies and with other animals (and similar ones like snakes).


I think that this is a valid question, and my personal answer is not why do we frown on hybrid dart frogs, but rather, why DON'T we frown on other hybrids. I do not work with hybrids, whether it be fish or other reptiles/amphibians. I feel the same way with them as with any dart frog.

However, I think that the conservation factor needs to come into play here. As it has in many livebearer and cichlid species, these captive populations may become the final resting place for some of these species and their various forms. I think we owe it to the various ecological forces that determined these frogs to help keep their lineages strong and true. In 100 years, will we still have viable populations of all of these frogs? Will they still be true to their current phenotype/genotype? Probably not. But that's not a reason to throw your hands up in the air and say "well, then hell...let's just do whatever". We're doing a great job killing them off in the wild. Let's try not to do the same thing here.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

It was bound to happen once


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds like someone is really on a tear tonight! Nothing else to do?

Richard.



Scott Richardson said:


> I made no mistake, as there have been white tigers in the wild. Which you said there were not. Then even said there were and one was shot in the 1950's. If it was shot it did then exist.
> 
> No one on this board keeps tigers in their vivariums. Or dogs, or cats, or snakes. or even poo flinging monkeys.
> 
> ...


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Nope! Just relaxing and enjoying the last day of the weekend.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> i don't think i've been arguing with people. i asked an honest question and got some pretty snide responses and some dueling between others i didn't respond to. my original question was why hybridization in other animals is not frowned upon like it is in dart frogs. it seems only natural to compare the views on hybridization in different hobbies and with other animals (and similar ones like snakes). you know it just as well as i do. you're just attacking me because you made a mistake and you need to save face.
> 
> i have no tried to start conflict, but when you attacked me like you did, i felt i had to correct you. i know you're trying to cover your own fail here by attacking me even more with your latest post, and i understand.


Does anybody else find this laugh out loud funny?


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Seems like you're just running from thread to thread wanting to start arguments with everyone. Always affirming your negative position doesn't really add anything to a resolution of the issues.

Just seems like you're looking for someone to kick around.

Richard.



Scott Richardson said:


> Nope! Just relaxing and enjoying the last day of the weekend.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Not at all. In the other post, I just pointed out that every frog in the hobby is the off spring of wild collected frogs.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Does anybody else find this laugh out loud funny?


seems to me that you have been the one trying to cause conflict. every post you have made here has been a snide comment or attempt to start a flame war. you're first comment in here was an attempt to start something. sorry i offended you by asking a question, but please feel free to not respond to my posts from here on out.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

And I don't really believe asking for facts to back up a statement is taking a negative position. 

Let's not hijack the thread, that is what thunderdome is for


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This is not a novel thought nor argument on Db. If you need an answer (since you asked the question many times, I assume you're desperate to find one), I suggest falling in love with the seacrh function on this site as much as you seem to love posting negatives.

Good luck in your search, Richard.



Scott Richardson said:


> Not at all. In the other post, I just pointed out that every frog in the hobby is the off spring of wild collected frogs.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> I made no mistake, as there have been white tigers in the wild. Which you said there were not. Then even said there were and one was shot in the 1950's. If it was shot it did then exist.


they did... once. a t-rex existed too, but they don't now.  anyway, let's just stop with this. i will admit i was carried away and have strayed a little from my original question. i still think it is fair to compare this hobby to other hobbies.



dravenxavier said:


> I think that this is a valid question, and my personal answer is not why do we frown on hybrid dart frogs, but rather, why DON'T we frown on other hybrids. I do not work with hybrids, whether it be fish or other reptiles/amphibians. I feel the same way with them as with any dart frog.
> 
> However, I think that the conservation factor needs to come into play here. As it has in many livebearer and cichlid species, these captive populations may become the final resting place for some of these species and their various forms. I think we owe it to the various ecological forces that determined these frogs to help keep their lineages strong and true. In 100 years, will we still have viable populations of all of these frogs? Will they still be true to their current phenotype/genotype? Probably not. But that's not a reason to throw your hands up in the air and say "well, then hell...let's just do whatever". We're doing a great job killing them off in the wild. Let's try not to do the same thing here.


well said. i can understand trying to conserve the animals as they are. it's just too bad they may end up only existing in zoos.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> seems to me that you have been the one trying to cause conflict. every post you have made here has been a snide comment or attempt to start a flame war. you're first comment in here was an attempt to start something. sorry i offended you by asking a question, but please feel free to not respond to my posts from here on out.


Oh shit!! Now you did it.


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

dravenxavier said:


> I think that this is a valid question, and my personal answer is not why do we frown on hybrid dart frogs, but rather, why DON'T we frown on other hybrids. I do not work with hybrids, whether it be fish or other reptiles/amphibians. I feel the same way with them as with any dart frog.
> 
> However, I think that the conservation factor needs to come into play here. As it has in many livebearer and cichlid species, these captive populations may become the final resting place for some of these species and their various forms. I think we owe it to the various ecological forces that determined these frogs to help keep their lineages strong and true. In 100 years, will we still have viable populations of all of these frogs? Will they still be true to their current phenotype/genotype? Probably not. But that's not a reason to throw your hands up in the air and say "well, then hell...let's just do whatever". We're doing a great job killing them off in the wild. Let's try not to do the same thing here.



I don't own the D11s or the land that is being cleared with them. In order to conserve the frogs, you need to restore their habitat. So exactly who is the we you speak of?


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott Richardson said:


> I don't own the D11s or the land that is being cleared with them. In order to conserve the frogs, you need to restore their habitat. So exactly who is the we you speak of?


I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at. I'm not even sure why the various parts of what I said were highlighted, to be frank. However, the general tone is exactly what I was speaking against, there. "It's too late for the habitat, so why bother?" It's not a very good outlook to have. Habitat loss is not the only detriment to these frogs. Far from it. Reintroduction is also not yet out of the picture. Are they going to want my frogs for such an undertaking? Certainly not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't care. 

If you're wanting to nit-pick because I use "we" rather than "these people, those people, etc." please don't bother. It should be clear what I meant. But if you really want to get into it, don't we all share in their loss, whether you've got the chainsaw in your hand or not?


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> i still think it is fair to compare this hobby to other hobbies


Then you haven't learned anything anybody has said to you. Then you wonder why people are being hard on you. I am not the only one that has told you this isn't other hobbies this is Dendrobates/dart frogs it is a hobby on to itself. It has separate ideologies then other hobbies just by looking at the hybrid issue itself (not including mixed tanks). It's not snakes, shrimp, fish, reefs, cross-stitch, wood working.

Then you still say it's fair to compare? Even Scott has explained the thread topic to you to you and you argue with him, and he has a mixed tank(from my understanding) and you still continue with the argumentative attitude. Either your hear to fight and argue or thick headed. You have wasted a lot of time fighting in a thread that you could have spent reading and researching on how to care for single species tanks. Can mix tanks be successful? Yes. Should they be done by someone that has little expierance in the hobby? NO. How many people have told you this? Enough for you get the point, that YOU don't have the expierance and the knowledge to be successful with it. They have explained the thoughts on both sides of the hybrid issue as well. 

So continue researching and learning, and forget about comparing this hobby to other hobbies. Again what other people do in other hobbies is good for THEM and works for THEM. What they do there does not apply here. To find out what works here use the search button here and find some knowledgeable hobbyist here that you can ask questions and advice.

Let this thread die as I will with this last response. Good luck to you in your research and learning.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Anyone see any good movies lately?

John


----------



## evannave (Jan 23, 2009)

I normally just browse tending to enjoy threads that focus the building of tanks and such but I some in the conversation it have gotten personal and may have confused beginners in the process of a passionate and lively debate. 

First I would say that the conversation would be more helpful if broken in to several smaller points. 

In regards to mixing different types of frog locations etc. Ultimately I think there have been many arguments back and forth as how it may or may not negatively impact the frogs involved there are articles that suggest it having a negative effect already link in the thread . So far no one on has offered up a way that mixing can or has hypothetically or anecdotally helped the frogs involved. So while some are saying that they through skill may have been able to overcome inherits potentially problems none have said of any benefit to the frogs involved.

So can you mix frogs? The consensus appears to range from no to maybe but you might have problems without a potential upside. 

My conclusion is with out an upside why risk potential or inevitable problems solely for the reason that we would like to have more frogs in less tanks. It seems to me that it is placing our desires over practical care of these wonderful animals.

Second in regards to hybrids. Our hobby is small, many have concerns that with the limited numbers of frogs in the hobby to take some frogs out of a already limited gene pool for selfish reasons is not having the animal we find so amazing best interests at heart. These hybrids might have other inherited defects that we don't even know about at this point like being sterile etc. The hobby is better served from a breeding stand point to have a large gene pool from the collection sites and species with out muddying the waters or creating frogs that could cause harm to these gene pools. So with the hobby best interests as a whole I would not create hybrids.

Third question raised in the argument being. You are going to mix frogs why does every one care? 

Most people in the hobby follow guideline or rules for the care of these animal. When a hobbyist disregards with for purely selfish reasons it is easy for other to imagine you disregarding other guidelines. The example being you have read article about how mixing frogs is bad for the frogs but do it anyway. Then you know you should not let their offspring live but do it any way. At that point to an outsider all we know is that you have not had the hobby best interest at heart so far so it is not that big of leap to imagine you selling the hybrids and causing problems for the hobby as a whole.

If folks are interested in hybrids because they feel they have run out way to enjoy their frogs and the hobby speaking at schools, boy scouts and after school programs can be very rewarding.

I would remind every one that which every side of the argument you are this board will be more productive if we maintain a friendly tone. Also give each other the benefit of the doubt that we love the frogs that we are privileged to have in our care and we will listen to each points with a open but still appropriately skeptical mind.

Evan


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

vespers_ said:


> seems to me that you have been the one trying to cause conflict. every post you have made here has been a snide comment or attempt to start a flame war. you're first comment in here was an attempt to start something. sorry i offended you by asking a question, but please feel free to not respond to my posts from here on out.


It's not your thread. You posted on a public forum. My first comment in here was a comical heads up to you as to what was going to happen here. You are so obviously in this for the argument that it is comical, as has been pointed out by many. You claim that you want to learn but you throw the answers that are given you, back in the face of anyone who tries to help. People like you are detrimental to the hobby. Your posts reek of ignorance and you hardheaded attitude makes it obvious that you just want to argue.


----------



## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Which is the definition of a *Troll*.

s


Pumilo said:


> ... Your posts reek of ignorance and you hardheaded attitude makes it obvious that you just want to argue.


----------



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Anyone see any good movies lately?
> 
> John


I hear Magnum Force is pretty good.......


----------



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Azurel said:


> Then you haven't learned anything anybody has said to you. Then you wonder why people are being hard on you. I am not the only one that has told you this isn't other hobbies this is Dendrobates/dart frogs it is a hobby on to itself. It has separate ideologies then other hobbies just by looking at the hybrid issue itself (not including mixed tanks). It's not snakes, shrimp, fish, reefs, cross-stitch, wood working.
> 
> Then you still say it's fair to compare? Even Scott has explained the thread topic to you to you and you argue with him, and he has a mixed tank(from my understanding) and you still continue with the argumentative attitude. Either your hear to fight and argue or thick headed. You have wasted a lot of time fighting in a thread that you could have spent reading and researching on how to care for single species tanks. Can mix tanks be successful? Yes. Should they be done by someone that has little expierance in the hobby? NO. How many people have told you this? Enough for you get the point, that YOU don't have the expierance and the knowledge to be successful with it. They have explained the thoughts on both sides of the hybrid issue as well.
> 
> ...


You are correct in that assumption... But, I will point out that the two species in the enclosure are FEET apart most of the time. And I don't advise this to anyone else. I have a HUGE tank by any standard. Just because I have one doesn't make it ok. You will notice the mixed tanks you see are hundreds of gallons.


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> You are correct in that assumption... But, I will point out that the two species in the enclosure are FEET apart most of the time. And I don't advise this to anyone else. I have a HUGE tank by any standard. Just because I have one doesn't make it ok. You will notice the mixed tanks you see are hundreds of gallons.


Which you explained.....And he is still fighting with you. So as far as that goes it wasn't about the "question" getting answered but him wanting to argue and fight.

I am bowing out now.....


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Scott said:


> Which is the definition of a *Troll*.
> 
> s


You're right Scott. Sorry, that was about 2 sentences over the line.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Azurel said:


> I am bowing out now.....


I do believe I'll join you.


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Azurel said:


> Then you haven't learned anything anybody has said to you. Then you wonder why people are being hard on you. I am not the only one that has told you this isn't other hobbies this is Dendrobates/dart frogs it is a hobby on to itself. It has separate ideologies then other hobbies just by looking at the hybrid issue itself (not including mixed tanks). It's not snakes, shrimp, fish, reefs, cross-stitch, wood working.
> 
> Then you still say it's fair to compare? Even Scott has explained the thread topic to you to you and you argue with him, and he has a mixed tank(from my understanding) and you still continue with the argumentative attitude. Either your hear to fight and argue or thick headed. You have wasted a lot of time fighting in a thread that you could have spent reading and researching on how to care for single species tanks. Can mix tanks be successful? Yes. Should they be done by someone that has little expierance in the hobby? NO. How many people have told you this? Enough for you get the point, that YOU don't have the expierance and the knowledge to be successful with it. They have explained the thoughts on both sides of the hybrid issue as well.
> 
> ...


yes scott did give me very good answers and i appreciate them. i was not arguing with him about anything he said about keeping frogs in the same tank. you on the other hand simply told me that this is not another hobby and this hobby doesn't share those views. you didn't really give me any reason why. i asked why their are such hostile views and you just said pretty much "because that's the way it is."


----------



## vespers_ (May 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> It's not your thread. You posted on a public forum. My first comment in here was a comical heads up to you as to what was going to happen here. You are so obviously in this for the argument that it is comical, as has been pointed out by many. You claim that you want to learn but you throw the answers that are given you, back in the face of anyone who tries to help. People like you are detrimental to the hobby. Your posts reek of ignorance and you hardheaded attitude makes it obvious that you just want to argue.


so trolls are now calling other people trolls? i'm not in this for the argument... but when you keep posting inflammatory responses i will respond. fortunately, i don't take forums or the internet too seriously. 

lol...


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi John,

I just watched "Where The Wild Things Are" and I LOVED it! I'm not sure I would want to admit it, but I cried when the little boy had to leave the island. It was a really sweet movie.

Nothing at all like this thread!

Take care, Richard.



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Anyone see any good movies lately?
> 
> John


----------

