# Reasons for Frog Drownings



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Talking to people during the Sunday night chat, the topic of frog drownings came up. I'm particularly interested in this because i am currently completing the construction of a 115gl viv with a waterfall, stream, and pond. The pond can be up to 4" deep, but after talking to several froggers about the dangers of deep water, i'm not quite sure what to do.

The tank will contain a colony of leucs, which to some people might be known as excessively quarrelsome and "social." I plan on getting juvies, so that I can watch them grow up and "raise them" a bit. One member on the chat mentioned that they had pond features in several of their vivs, but which only contained adult frogs. Another member mentioned that they did lose a frog (actually a leuc) in a drowning incident, and it was a juvy.

So the question is this. What is causing these frog drownings? They are said to be able to hold their breathe for a long time, and they are of course amphibians, animals that live on land and in water. Is it an age related event? Is it do to fighting between frogs (pinning each other down? Is it due to fatigue when i frog cannot get out of the water?

The pond I have has sloping sides with plants and sticks. But after talking to members, it seems that this might not matter at all. Frogs might still be able to drown. I do not in anyway want to risk frog death due to this pond, so it would be very helpful if any experience could be posted on this matter.

If it was possible to prove if frog drownings were due to quarreling or due to actual drowning, it would be much easier to decide on a plan of action. Water could be lowered to a minimal depth to help frogs leave the water easily, or it could be raised to a level where frogs could not hold one another underwater because they could not reach the bottom. There are many options, but which is the right one?

Luke


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

Luke,

I have a fairly substantial water portion to my display tank and have never lost a frog to drowning (actually, I never lost a frog, period, in the 2.5 years the tank has been set-up). See my signature for the inhabitants of my display tank. All of the frogs were introduced into the tank as juveniles.

I have only, once witnessed a frog accidentally go into the water. The tinc going after a fruit fly stepped on to some floating java moss and ended up in the water. It climbed out easily and with out any assistance.

I have, also, patted each of the frogs into the water, just to observe how they reacted. All stayed on the surface and swam directly back to the land with out any problem.

These are just my experiences, but I really don't think there is a drowning issue with dart frogs as long as there are several easy egress points.

Tim


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I have no experience with leucs but can tell you that pumilio males have been know to drown rivals in territorial disputes. Most often though if you are careful to design the water features without places where the frogs can get trapped, you are fine. I recently lost a very valuable female wc blue jeans that was consistently producing froglets. She drown in a small tube I had placed as a potential tad rearing site. She went in head first and could not turn around.


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I did read that post Brent, it really sucks. I heard that about pumilios, but i heard that leucs had a tendency to fight also. But whether the drownings were becuase of quarrels or something else is not clear. Anybody with frog drownings or luecs have any input?

Luke


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## ManofMusic (Aug 31, 2004)

I don't mean to hijack the post or anything, but I'm curious about the fighting leucs you mention. Anybody have any more information on this? I was under the impression that they were one of the less territorial species. I've never seen any hostile interactions between any of mine...


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Don't worry about it, i'm interested in that information also.

Luke


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Does anybody keep several pairs in a tank with pools or water features? I would like to know about your experience. Thanks.

Luke

P.S. Thanks for the email keith.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2005)

I have four leucs (juvies) in a 46 gallon tank with a stream, a waterfall on the back panel and a pond that houses a betta. So far, I have never seen the frogs in the water, or for that matter, anywhere near the water.

I also have two other vivariums. One houses four azureus. I have watched frogs launch themselves from the top of the waterfall and land directly in the pond where they swim to the side and climb out without incident. These are also juvies, a little older than my leucs.

My last tank houses a pair of subadult/adult (not sure if they are full grown), I'm assuming wild-caught (didn't realize when I bought them) aurautus. I had a panic situation when one of the frogs leaped into the pond when I had my hand in the tank and dove under the water and got under the false bottom of the tank. I freaked. I was sure he would drown before he could find his way back into the pond. I ended up tearing the whole vivarium apart until I found him. (Of course in hindsight, I could have just drained the water and waited for him to come out from under the false bottom...geez!!!) I fixed the pond so the frogs can't get under the false bottom. However, the same frog did dive into the pond again recently when I was trying to catch him to take him to the vet. He wedged himself between two rocks that line the pond and I had to wait 20 minutes until he came out of the pond and back on land before I could catch him. Obviously, this frog uses the pond as an escape tactic.

I would just be sure that the frogs can't get out of the pond and under the false bottom. I know that mine is dark and full of PVC supports that could obstruct their view of the pond and they might not find their way back.


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## Keroppi (Nov 23, 2004)

Interestingly enough I have also seen one of my Azureus(actually my fly eating avatar) jump from the top of the waterfall into the pond area of their tank. This is about a ten to eleven inch freefall. The water is between 5 to 6 inches at its deepest. I thought it was an accident the first time I saw it happen. Now I am starting to think otherwise. He always swims to the edge of the water and hops right out. He never seems to need the help of the wood or the plants but it is a very gentle slope. They are just over a year old though. Who's to say what would have happened if they had been little froglets but I don't think I would be as confident or find it as amusing as I do now!

eve s.


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2005)

Ive heard of frogs taking huge 'death leaps' in viv's before, i think they dig the buzz.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

It is interesting you bring this topic up, as about three weeks ago when I was on vacation in Orlando I had a leuc drown. I had given them a larger bowl of water because there tank dries quicker than my other tank, and I returned to find a juvie leuc floating in the new deeper water bowl. The frog was healthy and was a great eater, the frog was in with two other leucs, they are actually clutchmates. I have seen my female fight with my male on several occasions. I am postitve it is a pair, I have gotten fertile eggs when only thoose two frogs were in the tank, she pins him to the ground for a bit then gets up and he hops away.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2005)

I have a leuc that sits underwater for long periods of time. I believe someone posted on this board for me about this. He would just sit underwater, I would get worried and try to get him out, but he would just swim up and hop out. Very strange behaviour. :shock:


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## TPopovich (May 7, 2004)

*Leuc's Fighting*

I have 5 leuc's in a 28 gallon lizard lounge. I have a small water feature in the corner that they go in and soak when laying eggs. The dominant male fights with all of the frogs in the tank, including the female. It's generally just when he's ready to breed, he'll pin anything in sight. Once he breeds, he calms down for a couple weeks until the next cycle. Although this has be going on since Feb, nobody seems to get hurt, they are all out at feeding time together, I have never seen them fight in the water but It's very possible it could happen. When he's in the fighting mood, he chases everything down.


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## unbrokenchain42 (Dec 18, 2004)

i had three leucs in a 45 gallon viv with a 6-8 inch water feature. in the beginning (when i first introduced them to the viv) they seemed to fall into the water a lot, especially when they were attempting to climb up the glass above the water. they would simply swim to the land portion and climb out. however, there were a couple times when i would watch this take place, and the frog would seem to swim and swim without "finding" the land , even though it was right in front of him. he seemed to tire himself out a bit, and this could have potentially been dangerous to him in terms of exhaustion and thus drowning. eventually i helped him onto the land with my hand. now i doubt my help was neccesary, since there never was before and there never has been a problem with that water depth, but it was something i took notice of. 
-now they are in a new viv with a stream about an inch and a half deep. about ten percent of the time when i check them the male is sitting in the water, or hoping through it, or chasing ff's on the surface. basically, they seem to enjoy it thoroughly. 
-so in conclusion, my leucs purposely jump into the water (both 8 inch and 1.5 inch ), and seem to enjoy it.


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