# Some Frog ID Help Pls!



## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Hello,

Ok so! I am curious - I was told this is Oophaga pumilio... but I have never seen a frog that is ALL RED without black or blue on the top. What morph or designation is this, and do you know if they exist in Canada (is anyone keeping or breeding them?) I would be most interested!









Second, I am looking at a pair of O. pumilio but would like to know their morph... and How about a guess at Gender?

#1 -










# 2 -










Thanks!


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Drachenblut said:


> Second, I am looking at a pair of O. pumilio but would like to know their morph


What is the seller calling them?


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> What is the seller calling them?


He called them Oophaga Pumilio "Man Creek". Does this sound right?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Drachenblut said:


> He called them Oophaga Pumilio "Man Creek". Does this sound right?


No clue -- I don't keep Oophaga. But, when IDing a locale/morph, the only way to proceed is to start with the alleged ID, and see if there's any reason not to believe it -- whether the animals' appearance conforms to expectations, the relative rate of mis-IDing of the sort of animal at hand, the probability that the animal is a cross of some sort, the reputation of the seller and an analysis of whether a seller might 'fudge' the truth in the interest of financial gain or fame or whatever, and so on. If everything checks out, then it is probably as labeled.

Going in the other direction -- IDing a locale/morph based on its appearance -- is prone to error and confimation bias and self-deception and ultimately underpins an erosion of trust in IDs of all animals in the hobby. This is not mere speculation; this happens in the larger herp hobby too regularly for comfort. That's why I asked. 

Hopefully knowledgeable folks will jump in with confirmation of the ID.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Man Creek is a locale of pumilio. However I think you have reason to doubt. I would do more research but I've never seen a solid red man creek. *No one here can tell you what locale you have*.
With that said, I've seen solid red solartes. And the second and third frog looks much more like a Panama blue jean instead of a man creek. Man creek don't have a lot of spotting and their colors are more muted.

Edit: I've also seen solid red "red frog beach" pumilio as well.


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## Pepepepe (Aug 30, 2020)

Drachenblut said:


> Hello,
> 
> Ok so! I am curious - I was told this is Oophaga pumilio... but I have never seen a frog that is ALL RED without black or blue on the top. What morph or designation is this, and do you know if they exist in Canada (is anyone keeping or breeding them?) I would be most interested!
> 
> ...


I would say the first frog is solarte/Nancy and second and third I would say are blue jeans.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Pepepepe said:


> I would say the first frog is solarte/Nancy and second and third I would say are blue jeans.


Doubtful you can make that call from photos properly.

Man Creek are available in Canada, from at least one breeder I know of - however they typically look a bit more orange than what you have posted above.


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## Pepepepe (Aug 30, 2020)

Chris S said:


> Doubtful you can make that call from photos properly.
> 
> Man Creek are available in Canada, from at least one breeder I know of - however they typically look a bit more orange than what you have posted above.


I’m not saying that’s what they are, I’m saying what I think they are because that’s what I have seen in other pictures and they seem similar


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## Pepepepe (Aug 30, 2020)

In fact one of my solarte looks nearly the same, so im just saying what I think they are and he can judge.
Its nearlly impossible to tell an oophagas gen because you can find a really fat male and a really fat female, or the opposit. And by the size of the fingers it’s just in tinctorius I think. I have heard of a guy who could sex them by seeing they’re heads from above.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Seems like you would want to buy from a breeder that you had no question that what they are telling you about the frogs is the truth.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm positive those aren't Man Creek. If you can return them and get a refund, I would. Otherwise none of the offspring can be allowed to leave your collection.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

JasonE said:


> I'm positive those aren't Man Creek. If you can return them and get a refund, I would. Otherwise none of the offspring can be allowed to leave your collection.


Hey there. I spoke to the seller, and he confirmed with me they were "Blue Jeans". I ended up getting the pair, I was shown pictures of the froglets and seen them grow, and he said they have been in his care for over 8 months now, and seem healthy. Now, please don't burn me for this as I wish to know: IF these were wild caught, as long as they seem to be healthy, exhibit normal behavior, are kept seperate from other frogs and eat well/breed properly, then what is the problem?

I mean, were not the first frogs of any of the kind we keep, when first brought into the hobby, "wild"?

I get that people don't want to depress the market financially (especially when they are trying to breed these CB for profit/conservation) or muddy waters with poor stock


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Drachenblut said:


> Hey there. I spoke to the seller, and he confirmed with me they were "Blue Jeans". I ended up getting the pair, I was shown pictures of the froglets and seen them grow, and he said they have been in his care for over 8 months now, and seem healthy. Now, please don't burn me for this as I wish to know: IF these were wild caught, as long as they seem to be healthy, exhibit normal behavior, are kept seperate from other frogs and eat well/breed properly, then what is the problem?
> 
> I mean, were not the first frogs of any of the kind we keep, when first brought into the hobby, "wild"?
> 
> I get that people don't want to depress the market financially (especially when they are trying to breed these CB for profit/conservation) or muddy waters with poor stock


There is no problem, if they are all legally exported/imported. Anyone in the hobby who tells you differently is fooling themselves in thinking their lineage came from some other mysterious source....


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Drachenblut said:


> IF these were wild caught, as long as they seem to be healthy, exhibit normal behavior, are kept seperate from other frogs and eat well/breed properly, then what is the problem?


Outwardly healthy wild caught frogs can still host any number of parasites / issues. (Granted the same can be said of captive bred specimens as well, but the risk is much lower if they're sourced from a responsible keeper)


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

The seller first claimed that they were 'Man Creek', and then when pressed changed the story? Ugh. What else were they lying about? No one will ever know but the seller.

Not a direct criticism of you, @Drachenblut , but a general comment: there are many sources for dart frogs (including importing them from US breeders -- it is expensive, but not hard). Seeking out the better ones, and refusing to do business with the shady ones, makes it more likely that our kids and their kids will have less shady ones and more better ones to deal with. We can improve the future hobby through our little choices now.



Drachenblut said:


> I get that people don't want to depress the market financially (especially when they are trying to breed these CB for profit/conservation) or muddy waters with poor stock


Yep, and the latter is what almost happened here. 

We (as a hobby) don't need to be stripping quanitities of animals from the wild. Taking a handful of animals for starting captive lines ("I mean, were not the first frogs of any of the kind we keep, when first brought into the hobby, "wild"?") is completely different from taking many thousands a year to sell mostly to novice keepers and general pet stores where too many of them will fare very poorly.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Taking a handful of animals for starting captive lines ("I mean, were not the first frogs of any of the kind we keep, when first brought into the hobby, "wild"?") is completely different from taking many thousands a year to sell mostly to novice keepers and general pet stores where too many of them will fare very poorly.


Yeah. RIP to all those 2013 Costa Rican blue jeans imports I expected to find tons of when I came back into the hobby.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The seller first claimed that they were 'Man Creek', and then when pressed changed the story? Ugh. What else were they lying about? No one will ever know but the seller.
> 
> Not a direct criticism of you, @Drachenblut , but a general comment: there are many sources for dart frogs (including importing them from US breeders -- it is expensive, but not hard). Seeking out the better ones, and refusing to do business with the shady ones, makes it more likely that our kids and their kids will have less shady ones and more better ones to deal with. We can improve the future hobby through our little choices now.
> 
> ...


Completely understand where you are coming from. I admit that I made a beginner mistake and I suppose my issue is that I do not yet have your connections. 

Is there a section in this forum that lists breeders in different countries? For example I am in canada. And what species they are breeding? I think that would be a great resource to help people out. I guess my main issue initially has been that I don't know who has what, but I seem to be learning.

In the future when I buy frogs especially those of a higher value what question should I ask the seller?

Eg:

How long OoW?
Lineage Line? Where did you get them?
Can I see pics of the parents (to confirm if captive bred etc).

I don't want to upset anyone but at the same time I don't want to get scammed. That's why I'm leaning on your guys's experience to help me learn.

Thanks so much!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Here's a good thread with things to consider when buying online:

Tips on safely buying frogs online


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## SeaAnemone (12 mo ago)

[QUOTE

Is there a section in this forum that lists breeders in different countries? For example I am in canada. And what species they are breeding? I think that would be a great resource to help people out. I guess my main issue initially has been that I don't know who has what, but I seem to be learning.


[/QUOTE]

I haven’t found a list of breeders on this website but once you’ve been a member for a set amount of time and have enough posts you can see the marketplace where people post frogs for sale. I’ve seen ads for frogs being sold in Canada. You can check the vendor feedback threads for those people and also check their post history to learn more about them.

I think you get access to the marketplace after having been a member here for a month and posting/replying 10 times.

I’ve also seen lots and lots of positive references on many threads to Understory Enterprises. They are in Canada. To be clear I’ve never worked with them and can’t vouch for them. I just see them mentioned here a lot.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

I have bought from Understory Enterprises a couple time at the Expos and have also gotten frogs from their lines.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Drachenblut said:


> Is there a section in this forum that lists breeders in different countries? For example I am in canada. And what species they are breeding? I think that would be a great resource to help people out. I guess my main issue initially has been that I don't know who has what, but I seem to be learning.


We aim to help people out with husbandry information, and I think our focus on that is pretty successful. We aim to help people learn how to shop for animals, and how to avoid scams and regrets in general_. _

We do have a Marketplace open to established users (not to newer users -- this in order to virtually eliminate scams, a truly unique situation in the herp world) to enable hobbyists to buy and sell amongst themselves. We don't have a user-generated list of shopping recommendations, since (among many other reasons) that would involve vetting those listings, and Dendroboard isn't in the business of policing the larger internet and won't be. 

I am sincerely sorry if that seems really inconvenient, but at least in my opinion and experience the dart hobby doesn't need any more commercialization. This may not be obvious, and may sound completely backwards/archaic/elitist/arrogant/paternalistic/gatekeeping, but the ease of sourcing other herp species is not a net gain for many keepers and definitely isn't a net gain for the animals. 

One hopefully useful tip is to read threads about the species you're interested in, and find out (via PM, or even post as long as it is a simple factual question and not a request for recommendations or reviews) where keepers acquired their frogs.


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## Drachenblut (10 mo ago)

Socratic Monologue said:


> We aim to help people out with husbandry information, and I think our focus on that is pretty successful. We aim to help people learn how to shop for animals, and how to avoid scams and regrets in general_. _
> 
> We do have a Marketplace open to established users (not to newer users -- this in order to virtually eliminate scams, a truly unique situation in the herp world) to enable hobbyists to buy and sell amongst themselves. We don't have a user-generated list of shopping recommendations, since (among many other reasons) that would involve vetting those listings, and Dendroboard isn't in the business of policing the larger internet and won't be.
> 
> ...


Socratic - I do indeed understand. It does sound a bit "backwards/archaic/elitist/arrogant/paternalistic/gatekeeping" but... I can understand. I am happy to continue to be here, grow, learn and hopefully be able to access the marketplace. I'll go forth and PM those who may have froggos of interest, and see if they would be willing to deal.

Thanks again!


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