# Can someone give this dude a heads up if you live in the area?



## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

Not on the price...but on the dirt bath. Would love the get them out of the dirt but not at 400 per. 

kingsnake.com Classifieds: White Gold Dust Basti Dart Frogs


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I believe somebody from here already sent that person a message. If I remember correctly, the seller said they fixed the issue. I guess the photos haven't been changed though.


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

Did you also see the same vendor on kingsnake is selling "Reticulated Poison Dart Frogs" at 100 bucks a pop!!! ...they sure look like ventrimacula!!!!


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

That's absolutely ridiculous.I wrote him/her about both issues especially the poor basti's.Some people don't have any business selling frogs.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

oddlot said:


> That's absolutely ridiculous.I wrote him/her about both issues especially the poor basti's.Some people don't have any business selling frogs.


I find it horribly fascinating that people with little to no interest in the welfare of the animals they breed for money are even involved in this hobby in the first place. If they don't appreciate the beauty and natural history of these animals, why do they do it?


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

oddlot said:


> That's absolutely ridiculous.I wrote him/her about both issues especially the poor basti's.Some people don't have any business selling frogs.


At least if they sell them there is a chance they will be better off. Some people has no business keeping them, or any other animal.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ken Foose is also the same person who posted a few ads within the last 6-8 mos selling hybrds. 
You're all right, he has no business selling frogs.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

jacobi said:


> I find it horribly fascinating that people with little to no interest in the welfare of the animals they breed for money are even involved in this hobby in the first place. If they don't appreciate the beauty and natural history of these animals, why do they do it?


I agree and unfortunately,I think they are just flippers that don't know any better which just makes it worse.I noticed they sell a lot of lizards and snakes.They probably just came across these from where ever they get their poor animals from.I also noticed they are playing them off as if they bred them,but obviously not!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Wow I wish I hadn't clicked that link...


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

rain dart said:


> At least if they sell them there is a chance they will be better off. Some people has no business keeping them, or any other animal.


Agree but at 400 I don't think they will be flying out the door. And if they do - the seller is likely to be the one describing their captive needs.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I looked at the rest of the dart ads and he has alanis and awarape backwards as well as they are full of dirt along with his "terrible" frogs.Something tells me my email to him will fall on deaf ears.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

TerraFerma said:


> Not on the price...but on the dirt bath. Would love the get them out of the dirt but not at 400 per.
> 
> kingsnake.com Classifieds: White Gold Dust Basti Dart Frogs


buying them will just encourage him, anyway.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

rain dart said:


> At least if they sell them there is a chance they will be better off. Some people has no business keeping them, or any other animal.


Nope. That's just going to make them get more to sell. It's a tough thing to do about something you care about, but you CANNOT encourage people like this by buying things from them. In fact, I would wager that people like this count on other people feeling bad and buying them to "save" them.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

oddlot said:


> I looked at the rest of the dart ads and he has alanis and awarape backwards as well as they are full of dirt along with his "terrible" frogs.Something tells me my email to him will fall on deaf ears.


Ya I emailed him about that too... and the reticulated frog, and something else i think. 

I was very nice about it, and I think that is key if we really wanna see something done. 

*Attacking him isn't likely to motivate him*, and for the most part his feedback on BOI is pretty decent. There are a couple issues, but while I just scanned the threads it looks like he at least attempted to make things right even if the buyer was a bit unreasonable, and most the threads/comments seem to be positive.

I think what we have here is mostly a case of someone who needs to educate himself on what he is selling and may not be that bad of a guy at least compared to the other high volume reptile dealers out there. 

...But I am disappointed that he hasn't fixed all these issues after several of us (Including myself) have messaged him about it  

Anyways not happy, but I think we're better served trying to educate this guy and play up how it is in his best interests if he wants to make money to listen to us, and do that nicely before we pick up the torches and pitchforks.

I sent him a message on facebook. Maybe he didn't get the one through KS, I don't know. But I invited him here to chime in.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I've had some decent phone conversation with Mr. Foose on some animals he was offering from time to time and I got the impression he does care about his stock and care for the animals. I have not seen any animals sold by them that were in bad shape. 

If I remember the hybrid controversy correctly, he got the frogs from a local breeder that was deliberately producing them.. and was upfront in his advertisement about them being hybrids. If I also remember correctly, he also stated that he was no longer going to sell the hybrids once the ones he had purchased were sold. To my knowledge I have not seen them advertised there since that point or heard of him selling them from that point. 

As for the dirt bath comments... it isn't unheard of on here for people to ask about about substrates sticking to their frogs... I have yet to see the level of response to those people who have new but proper or improper set ups... Yet here we have a tar and feather program well underway.. As one random thread from the search feature http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/73709-froglet-viv-substrate.html Did anyone stop to think that the frogs were placed into a cage with fresh coco fiber that hasn't settled down (just like in the threads on the board) or covered with leaf litter?? That the pictures were probably taken right after putting them into the tank??? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should also add... why do people think that the pictures represent the current housing of the frogs as opposed to the possibility that the pictures were from a prior point in time and that the substrate may have settled down by now(they've been up for sale for a bit now...)... ??? 

Some comments 


Ed


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## SnorkelWasp (Feb 19, 2009)

I agree. People so quick to jump on the bandwagon. They are decent looking frogs with a bit of eco earth on them.


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## mike12348 (Jan 23, 2009)

If I'm remembering correctly, I've seen a few of his ads on KS and fauna with animals that appeared somewhat skinny but healthy. I've never dealt with him personally, but thanks Dave for being nice to him in your response. I hope he does choose to post here just to clear up issues people are having with him.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

mike12348 said:


> If I'm remembering correctly, I've seen a few of his ads on KS and fauna with animals that appeared somewhat skinny but healthy. I've never dealt with him personally, but thanks Dave for being nice to him in your response. I hope he does choose to post here just to clear up issues people are having with him.


I agree, from what I've seen he appears to have decent stock without any visible medical issues. I also have seen that some of his stock is under weight, this is probably because he deals with many species of herps with specific requirements such as PDFs. He can't deal with every detail and instead generalizes the care of his animals. This is from what I have veiwed in pics and in other cases only. Another cause for the weight issue could be parisites such as coccidia, which are common with the wild imports he recieves. 

Personally, the frogs them selves look to be in good condition, minus a lower humidity then what is consitered ideal and a less than desirable substate choice. I don't think I would purchase expensive and delicate species from him, but the conditions could be much worse.

My thoughts,
John


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Has anyone seen his setup in person yet? I would be interested on hearing how he keeps his more unique herps such as darts and uromastyx lizards (I was sure I saw an ad for some saharan imports).


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Ed I think several members here messaged Ken along these lines, not inappropriate and trying to help...


Dendro Dave said:


> Ya I emailed him about that too... and the reticulated frog, and something else i think.
> 
> I was very nice about it, and I think that is key if we really wanna see something done.
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FroggyKnight said:


> . This is from what I have veiwed in pics and in other cases only. Another cause for the weight issue could be parisites such as coccidia, which are common with the wild imports he recieves.


There is a serious disjunct in the hobby on this topic... Coccidia and other parasites are extremely common in the captive bred frogs in this hobby. 
I would not call all of the frogs, thin... instead some are simply not obese. 



FroggyKnight said:


> . Personally, the frogs them selves look to be in good condition, minus a lower humidity then what is consitered ideal and a less than desirable substate choice.


This is also a big disjunct in the hobby... The frogs are fine even at humidities as low as 60%... As for the less than desirable substrate, we see people using it by itself in the hobby all the time... and we see people using other less than desirable substrates such as long fiber sphagnum, and growing "mosses" because they like the look... Both of these are generally passed over by most of the hobby as acceptable but are about the same as the coco fiber. 




FroggyKnight said:


> . I don't think I would purchase expensive and delicate species from him, but the conditions could be much worse.


Why do people continue to label dart frogs as delicate? Established or captive bred dendrobatids are extremely hardy animals. 

One of the things I hoped people would pick up on was the comments about the substrate... *This is the first pet store that I have seen that appears to be consistently using "fresh new" substrate with inbound animals* and people are fussing over it like the frogs were being kept bone dry..... Personally I would prefer to purchase from a store where the animals that were placed in clean unused cages than ones that were simply thrown into a new enclosure that hasn't been cleaned or changed since the last group of animals passed through the door... I do agree the price is high but that depends on what he paid for the frogs. He could have easily paid a lot more for the frogs than we would expect (since many people here purchase the wild caught animals coming in through the Florida importers)...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> Ed I think several members here messaged Ken along these lines, not inappropriate and trying to help...


Mark, 
I have no beef with those who have been polite to Ken (like Dendro Dave), but the generalized attitude in the thread got on my nerves a little... That is why I didn't quote anyone to single them out on their position..
Here we have evidence that looks like fresh substrate was used in the cage with the frogs instead of how many vendors operate where they reuse substrates and cages over and over again and people are making comments about it to insinuate he isn't taking good care of the frogs. 

Some comments

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I agree the hate mongers have driven so many away...too bad they just don't stay on dark den.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Just for the record,I was nice about my email to him as well,more to try and educate him than give him a hard time.I didn't say anything about the way overpriced frogs($400 EACH) for bastis are a little out of control,but not my concern.I don't even care if he uses eco earth(to each is own),but I wouldn't have pics of frogs for sale that are almost totally coated in what looks like bone dry dirt either.He also has awarape and alanis for sale but mislabeled them backwards,again,I just didn't want him to sell them as the wrong morph and have even less knowledgeable people breeding them and selling them incorrectly also.He may be a nice guy,I just think he needs to be more informed about what he is selling.All in all the frogs do look pretty healthy from what I can see.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Mark,
> I have no beef with those who have been polite to Ken (like Dendro Dave), but the generalized attitude in the thread got on my nerves a little... That is why I didn't quote anyone to single them out on their position..
> Here we have evidence that looks like fresh substrate was used in the cage with the frogs instead of how many vendors operate where they reuse substrates and cages over and over again and people are making comments about it to insinuate he isn't taking good care of the frogs.
> 
> ...





markpulawski said:


> I agree the hate mongers have driven so many away...too bad they just don't stay on dark den.



Well I re-read some of his posts on the other forum about the hybrids, and he seems fairly reasonable overall, but also kinda on the defensive and less willing to respect the culture of this hobby and its ethics that differ from the other herp hobbies more then I'd like. We are all potential customers, so he should be open to our input. 

It may not be right for him to ignore us, but those who immediately go on the attack bare some of the responsibility if we can't get this guy on our side and respecting our culture/ethics.

I'm on the fence. I been watching his pseudotriton ruber ads since he's one of the few that offers them regularly. Actually talked to him about em a long time ago but he only had one left and money was tight so I passed, but those are still high on my list so I hope this guy ends up being someone I feel comfortable doing business with. (I will say he seemed pleasant enough in our conversation)


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well I re-read some of his posts on the other forum about the hybrids, and he seems fairly reasonable overall, but also kinda one the defensive and less willing to respect the culture of this hobby and its ethics that differ from the other herp hobbies more then I'd like. We are all potential customers, so he should be open to our input.
> 
> It may not be right for him to ignore us, but those who immediately go on the attack bare some of the responsibility if we can't get this guy on our side and respecting our culture/ethics.
> 
> I'm on the fence. I been watching his pseudotriton ruber ads since he's one of the few that offers them regularly. Actually talked to him about em a long time ago but he only had one left and money was tight so I passed, but those are still high on my list so I hope this guy ends up being someone I feel comfortable doing business with. (I will say he seemed pleasant enough in our conversation)


There's film footage of Hitler kissing babies too.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> There's film footage of Hitler kissing babies too.


 Good point Rusty


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> There's film footage of Hitler kissing babies too.


The Frog Taliban speaks, seriously Jon your over critical, abrasive, hateful approach to our hobby has grown beyond tiresome. People can do whatever they want in this hobby without your approval and you know what 99% will do the right thing. Oh yes hybrids around the corner accepted by all will be here soon, isn't that what you said? Absurd, if you want to be angry all of the time and bash people do it somewhere else.
Comparing someone selling frogs to Hitler.....


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well I re-read some of his posts on the other forum about the hybrids, and he seems fairly reasonable overall, but also kinda on the defensive and less willing to respect the culture of this hobby and its ethics that differ from the other herp hobbies more then I'd like. We are all potential customers, so he should be open to our input.
> 
> It may not be right for him to ignore us, but those who immediately go on the attack bare some of the responsibility if we can't get this guy on our side and respecting our culture/ethics.
> 
> I'm on the fence. I been watching his pseudotriton ruber ads since he's one of the few that offers them regularly. Actually talked to him about em a long time ago but he only had one left and money was tight so I passed, but those are still high on my list so I hope this guy ends up being someone I feel comfortable doing business with. (I will say he seemed pleasant enough in our conversation)



Dave what exactly are our culture/ethics? I don't remember signing a ethics clause when I bought my darts. To lump everyone into your ideology of how everyone should treat thier frogs is just propsterious. I guess the reference about hitler was just ponted in the wrong direction.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

bsr8129 said:


> Dave what exactly are our culture/ethics? I don't remember signing a ethics clause when I bought my darts. To lump everyone into your ideology of how everyone should treat thier frogs is just propsterious. I guess the reference about hitler was just ponted in the wrong direction.


 WTF ...Where did that come from? I'm one of the most moderate and diplomatic people here... And the one suggesting we'll catch more flies with honey. 

But to answer your question our ethics as relating to the subject are based on the consensus of the hobby as a whole. That consensus seems to be... No hybrids, no mixed species unless you really know what you're doing, stick to good husbandry practices, and LABEL YOUR ANIMALS THE CORRECT NAMES, sell at or at least around fair market value, and if people point out that you're doing something completely against the grain in the hobby you're participating in, especially as a vendor maybe pay a little attention to what they are saying, respect other people in general and don't be a selfish prick. As for culture we seem want to want to maintain the genetic integrity of our animals far more then most other herp hobbies. * Yep I'm Hitler* 

Now seriously just out of morbid curiosity, how did you justify in your mind picking me out of the crowd with all the hardasses (I love you guys!) here gathering up their torches and pitchforks?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> I've had some decent phone conversation with Mr. Foose on some animals he was offering from time to time and I got the impression he does care about his stock and care for the animals. I have not seen any animals sold by them that were in bad shape.
> 
> If I remember the hybrid controversy correctly, he got the frogs from a local breeder that was deliberately producing them.. and was upfront in his advertisement about them being hybrids. If I also remember correctly, he also stated that he was no longer going to sell the hybrids once the ones he had purchased were sold. To my knowledge I have not seen them advertised there since that point or heard of him selling them from that point.
> 
> ...


Point taken. In defense of the meanie faces here, we do tell people to get rid of their coco fiber substrates. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a frog seller to know more than a frog noob about substrates. Seeing frogs that look like little frog cookies with chocolate sprinkles is really irritating to me. Imagine being rolled in coco fiber with damp skin and no way to clean it off.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

markpulawski said:


> The Frog Taliban speaks, seriously Jon your over critical, abrasive, hateful approach to our hobby has grown beyond tiresome. People can do whatever they want in this hobby without your approval and you know what 99% will do the right thing. Oh yes hybrids around the corner accepted by all will be here soon, isn't that what you said? Absurd, if you want to be angry all of the time and bash people do it somewhere else.
> Comparing someone selling frogs to Hitler.....


Mark my whole point was aimed at DendroDave's statement that his previous conversations with Ken were pleasant. Meaning that those conversations are totally irrelevant to his knowledge of frog husbandry. Sorry if you took it any other way. 
I believe that Ken should be more knowledgeable when selling frogs. Everyone who vends at a show or posts frogs for sale should be able to at least give basic husbandry knowledge to the purchaser. That includes proper substrate and proper moisture of such substrate. If Ken really was interested in helping the frog hobby to grow, and there by increasing his customer base, he would be open to the opinions of the hobby. Would you trust him to sell you a chameleon if they were pictured in an all glass 10 gallon tank?
But maybe you're right Mark, maybe I should desert this sinking ship, afterall I do prefer ethics in my hobby, I prefer no mixed tanks or hybrids, and I prefer unverified locales of pumilio left in the wild, not cherry picked.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Ed said:


> There is a serious disjunct in the hobby on this topic... Coccidia and other parasites are extremely common in the captive bred frogs in this hobby.
> I would not call all of the frogs, thin... instead some are simply not obese.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry Ed, I was only stating my mind at the time. That mind was very tired and I'm currently sick so my thoughts are not very clear.I meant no disrespect, and after reading through your post, I did some more research on Ken and his business. I am happy to say that he has a greater passion and attention to care then I first noticed. Ken can indeed be trusted. 

The reason I mention Coccidia as my parasite example is that is was the first thing to come to mind. In addition, parasites I have found in both captive and wild animals include whipworms, hookworms as well as well as others. And, yes I understand Coccidia are common to find in even captive bred animals and are often nonthreatening to the animals health. But they can indeed become a major issue when out of hand. Last year, I rescued a tinc, who was very emaciated due to a severe Coccidia infection. It has since made a substantial recovery. I also do my own fecals sand bacterial cultures. I discovered the source of this problem when doing a fecal flotation. I also do pre-emptive treatments on all my animals, frogs included. To my knowledge, surprisingly few stores such as Ken's do much testing or treatment on the animals before selling. 

Now, to address my comments on the substrate and humidity. I have had for a temporary period my humidity drop to low levels aka about 60%. But I would highly recommend against it. The frogs that were subjected to it (imitators) were NOT happy with their environment and ceased most activity. During that time they were not actively hunting nearly as much as they should, and they lost a significant amount of weight given the time frame. (frogs were negative for parasites).

The substrate used appeared to be coco fiber, which is really not too bad in some situations, but again, I have had less than great results using it for darts. In my experience, it does often stick to frogs before settling. It can also stick as it begins to dry or receives fewer mistings. In my experience, sticking substrate can mean the humidity is falling; not the greatest for darts. Coco fiber also tends to mold faster than other substrates and will ofter require frequent replacement. Due to the often replacing, it is also not the greatest for maintaining a healthy population of microfauna which is very important to maintaining darts as many species "graze" in the wild. Or at least that is what I have heard. All this said, I don't dislike coco fiber as a single substrate, and often use it in my crested gecko tanks. I just don't think it works nearly as well for darts, I have tried. 

So, to conclude, I am highly respectful of your knowledge, Ed, and am willing to trust anyone you support in the hobby. I also over-reacted in my statements about Ken Foose. I did not mean any disrespect and simply drew a conclusion from what pictures I saw. Next time, I will do more research before commenting on a person's care for animals when it is their profession. 

Oh, and my comment about delicate and expensive was mostly directed to expensive, as I agree with you about their durability. They are some of the hardiest animals I keep! I know he sells more than darts and some of those things can be very accurately labeled as "delicate". 

Sincerely embarrassed,
John

P.S. Feel free to correct me on any misconception in my above statements!


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