# Multiple Pum Clutches



## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

1.1 took a break from breeding and I gave them some time to recover.

After a few months, the female was starting to look big and fat - egg laden, but nothing. No eggs for weeks. 

I decided to put together a slightly bigger viv for them. Nice and new. doubled the broms. Made it really wet and wouldn't ya know.

Eggs within 12 hours. Then another clutch. Then a third- which was the biggest clutch of all three. 

Sometimes a little moving around is all it takes....

The "new" viv - to spark their interest.












Two clutches on far right. The "older" clutch is on top - older by hours, not days.











Couple tads almost ready for transport.













and finally....the mother lode. 16, I think. A personal best from these guys.


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## jfehr232 (Apr 13, 2009)

Awesome...from what pumilio? Also, how do you give them a break because I been trying to give my Rio's a rest by not misting as much and so forth but she keeps laying!!!


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

With that many eggs it has to be Eldo's. That is a pretty sweet sight!


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Thats awesome Phil! What pums are they from?

Side note - What are you using to hold those broms up on the sides of the glass?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Why, they are from my new blue jeans, of course


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

jfehr232 said:


> Awesome...from what pumilio? Also, how do you give them a break because I been trying to give my Rio's a rest by not misting as much and so forth but she keeps laying!!!


You may have to seperate them.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Why, they are from my new blue jeans, of course


I want to see paperwork


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

nathan said:


> I want to see paperwork


Uh....I have it here somewhere.....honestly....

just take my word for it......afterall it's _me_, right?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

hahahaha! (i dont usually use the stupid abbreviations but) LMAO!

but really from what morph?
and any new luck with the guarmo?

james


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## poimandres (Mar 28, 2009)

Awesome Phil...congrats!

Also, what are those plastic things on the sides of the viv that are holding the bromiliads? Are they suctioned on to the glass?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

james67 said:


> hahahaha! (i dont usually use the stupid abbreviations but) LMAO!
> 
> but really from what morph?
> and any new luck with the guarmo?


It's the speckled Eldorado.

Yeah...the Guarumo have finally produced good froglets. I think the female is just not that great a mom though. I wish I had a 2nd female to add.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

poimandres said:


> Awesome Phil...congrats!
> 
> Also, what are those plastic things on the sides of the viv that are holding the bromiliads? Are they suctioned on to the glass?


Thanks!

Those are zoo med fish tank "airtubing" magnets. They are super strong and come with 5-6 different diameter clips. I use them all over the frog room.....in vivs to hold broms, film cans ect and on the metal racks to hold stuff too....


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

So many eggs!! will all of them make it? I just ask because i have learned here many things and amongst them that tads have to be in their own Brom to prevent cannibalism.

Very nice and congrats. Very good husbandry and skills to yield with good results.

Inspiring!


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## jeffr (May 15, 2009)

Nice Phil, congrats!!

I'm going to check out those zoo med clips


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## poimandres (Mar 28, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Those are zoo med fish tank "airtubing" magnets. They are super strong and come with 5-6 different diameter clips. I use them all over the frog room.....in vivs to hold broms, film cans ect and on the metal racks to hold stuff too....


Thanks. They seem extremely useful ... I'm surprised that they not make it in the top husbandry tool thread. 



jeffr said:


> I'm going to check out those zoo med clips


+1


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## ktewell (Dec 17, 2009)

Wow, exciting! How are they going to raise so many tads??


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Congrats!

It's amazing how a little stress can so quickly trigger a breeding response.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Madness! Those are going to be some busy pums. Are you going to pull any of them and try hand raising? That's a ton of tads for one pair to deal with at once.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Here is the thread on husbandry items with the zoomed magna clip...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/40314-one-important-husbandry-tool-4.html


Although there are at least 9 broms in that viv with multiple good water holding axils, I doubt that more than 30% of the tapoles will even have a chance to develop and pop fronts.....just the way it is. Survival of the fittest.

If someone *local* ever wants to experiment with feeding eggs and raising some....PM me.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

and now a *4th* clutch was found....

and that 16 egg clutch....looks like ALL of them are morphing.

WAY too many for one female to feed


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## Sake135 (Jun 12, 2009)

Wow that"s awesome but at the same time it sucks that they can't all be raised to froglets. 

Good Luck with those


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> and now a *4th* clutch was found....
> 
> and that 16 egg clutch....looks like ALL of them are morphing.
> 
> WAY too many for one female to feed


congrats man very cool , mabey its time to try to raise a few outside the tank and see if u can pull it off
craig


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Phil...this is awesome! You should send me a few to help relieve you of the overload.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Arrynia said:


> Phil...this is awesome! You should send me a few to help relieve you of the overload.


Set your Garmin and start heading North. By the time you get here, I can probably give you 10 tadpoles. 

I wonder if Imitator eggs would be ok? There's a couple papers on this subject but I'll admit, I'm in unchartered water with hand feeding pumilio.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Set your Garmin and start heading North. By the time you get here, I can probably give you 10 tadpoles.
> 
> I wonder if Imitator eggs would be ok? There's a couple papers on this subject but I'll admit, I'm in unchartered water with hand feeding pumilio.


It definitely would be nice if we could figure out a hand feeding method that was consistent. However, I find the parental care to be one of the greatest joys in working with the species.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

If I remember correctly, imitator eggs HAVE been used successfully in rearing pumilio. I also recall people using chicken eggs, but with a very low success rate and a very high death/SLS rate. 

It sounds like a great opportunity to try different methods in hand raising pumilio. I'm sure there's a way to do it, but with pumilio being more valuable and not as prolific in many cases, there havent been many tadpoles to try different theories out on. 

-Matt


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## Topete (Sep 27, 2009)

Maybe dumb, But what if the non fertilized eggs of other frogs you keep get frozen and then used on the Oophaga? I see many threads where after 2to 5 days show no development maybe those can be stored and used??

Good luck none the less.


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## Arrynia (Dec 27, 2009)

Topete said:


> Maybe dumb, But what if the non fertilized eggs of other frogs you keep get frozen and then used on the Oophaga? I see many threads where after 2to 5 days show no development maybe those can be stored and used??
> 
> Good luck none the less.


I would suspect that they would be mush once thawed.


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Phil you should try caviar !

Those pums would be raised with a silver spoon in their mouth . . .

Seriously though anyone try fish eggs? Mix a little supplements in . . .


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

There was also a thread about trying out salmon roe. You would have to find uncured roe as a lot of preservatives are put in with caviar. 

-Matt


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

I live right next to a place called Superior Fish , I may have to walk over there and find ut if they have fish eggs . . .


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I found a couple papers on substitute egg feeding - mainly the Histo one, but I dunno....

I just wish I had extra females from my other morphs, like the 2 cauchero females but the problem is that all of my pum tanks have between 6-8 tadpoles in broms already.

I guess it may be a "good" problem to have, but I'll keep my thinking cap on with this latest explosion....


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

Phil this would be a good time to experiment. You never know you may find the answers we are all looking for. You have a ton of eggs and well they are just going to go bad anyways . . . Well the ones the parents dont take care of anyways . . .


Got any larger frogs that are laying regularly like auratus or leucs tincs? Azureus? Maybe try some of those eggs. The tads should be able to nibble on them at least.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah someone told me they raised saddlebacks and bullseyes on frozen auratus eggs, just stripping off the gel coating after defrosting the eggs......


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

nathan said:


> I live right next to a place called Superior Fish , I may have to walk over there and find ut if they have fish eggs . . .


I think I heard the sodium content might be way too high in those


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

vent eggs frozen in a shot glass full of water thaw out not to bad


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

What a clutch!
Good thing you moved them, she might have exploded.

-Beth


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Bcs TX said:


> What a clutch!
> Good thing you moved them, she might have exploded.


Seriously, thats the reason I did it. She was starting to get huge and eggbound.

These Eldo's are big to begin with - almost as big as a full size Aruatus.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I had some time on my hands, so I took a few more pics...










Watering the egg farm...










Running away with tadpack











Big Clutch coming along nicely










"Mom in the brom"


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

great pics Phil !


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

nathan said:


> great pics Phil !


Thanks Nathan. I'm glad you like them.


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## poimandres (Mar 28, 2009)

Indeed...beautiful pics!

So how do you get those "action shots" (i.e. male wetting the eggs) without spooking the frogs? Do you just set up the camera on the tripod, leave the viv door open and sit and wait? lol I keep trying to get shots like these, but I fail!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

poimandres said:


> Indeed...beautiful pics!
> 
> So how do you get those "action shots" (i.e. male wetting the eggs) without spooking the frogs? Do you just set up the camera on the tripod, leave the viv door open and sit and wait? lol I keep trying to get shots like these, but I fail!


Thank you.

I do keep my Camera on a tripod in front of the viv. I work with and around the frogs so much, that most of them are used to me and don't usually run.

and finally....I just take a bunch of pics and delete over 60% of them that suck and finally get one or two good ones.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i had no idea the eldos were so big. any reference shots?

james


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Just saw 2 froglets oow and on broms....fully formed....looking perfectly healthy and with the cool black flecking.

If you live close and have interest in these or Caucheros, Basti's or Rio Guarumos.....come on over. I'm running out of grow out vivs / space.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I was just going through your post. Your frogs look very nice! It makes me wish I could have another tank


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## brog32 (Oct 28, 2005)

NICE Phil!! Congrats... The guy I got off of you calls nonstop and they have laid a couple times already so thanks a ton!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

brog32 said:


> NICE Phil!! Congrats... The guy I got off of you calls nonstop and they have laid a couple times already so thanks a ton!


 
Nice! I knew he was gonna be good for you. THAT particular guy is part of my older eldo line (I have 2 lines) ....still SNDF, but more of a 2006-ish. That line was more solid coloured with some throws coming out "reticulated" or "webbed" looking. Glad you are pleased!


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

Those are pretty frogs phil


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> Those are pretty frogs phil


Thanks Nate !


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## Newt1 (Feb 25, 2007)

How many froglets did you get from all the eggs

Steve


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Newt1 said:


> How many froglets did you get from all the eggs
> 
> Steve


Hmmmm....good question.

There had to be at least 35 eggs this year. Conservative estimate.

That Viv group produced 10 or so, that made it.....30-40% survival rate.


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