# The Mixed Tank Verdict



## bluedart

Ok, this poll is to help those new individuals coming into the hobby get an idea as to the feelings of those on this board about one of the most commonly asked and debated topics: mixed tanks. Feel free to post your lengthy opinions, and feel free to debate. This is to serve as a consolidated topic about MIXED DART FROG TANKS. Hopefully this will aid newbies in determining how they want to go about this addictive hobby.

Here is a link to a currently live thread with a debate going on about mixing. This thread is to consolidate, and if you have any other links to old mixed tank threads, post em' up, and I'll add them to this list.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13126

Basic info regarding Mixing:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14178


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## Ed

One of the items to consider when looking at these is that larger tanks may not provide as much space as we think. This is because the volume of the interior increases faster than the surface provided by the sides of the tank (cubes versus squares if I remember my math courses from almost 20 years ago). The rate of unused space (occupied by air) still increases faster than the usable space even if we plant up the tank and provide drip walls etc. 
This is why the size of the enclosure is not the only thing that has to be taken into consideration but the available niches, hide areas, breeding sites..... 

Ed


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## defaced

Busting out the concept of the limit. And yes you're correct. Just consider 1', 2', and 3' cubes. The floor space of a 1' cube would be 1 square foot, volume being 1 qubic foot. The floor space of a 2 ' cube would be 4 square feet, but volume would be 8 cubic feet. The floor space of a 3 ' cube would be 9 square feet, but volume would be 27 cubic feet.



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## kyle1745

Making this a sticky as it is a common topic.


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## mack

here is a link to a discussion with many links: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... mixed+tank.

i'm a bit shocked at the numbers from this poll, and wonder who has voted. as this is a beginner sticky, maybe the wording should change to "should beginners keep mixed tanks?" surely this would produce different results. it looks like most of dendroboard advocates mixed tanks, but after watching this board for over a year i don't believe that this is the case.

one litmus text might be to look at websites of folks who successfully breed frogs, then listen to the successful folks. i've never seen a website which condones mixing.

also to clarify, i don't disagree with ed. he's a zookeeper with extensive knowledge of amphibians, their biotopes, and veterinary medicine. of course he is capable of making mixed tanks which work. but for the novice, it seems like a surefire path to failure.

stress/aggression levels, pathogens, hybrids, and differing needs of different species all argue against mixing. at least until you have years of experience and the resources to make an uber-viv.


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## KeroKero

I do think it is a different question to ask if beginners should keep mixed tanks vs. keeping mixed tanks in general. I know a number of people with the experience to be able to pull one off and then some, they just don't do it. Often it seems more of the beginners want to do it, yet they don't really have the experience needed to know what species can mix in which circumstances.


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## Dendro Dave

i agree with Corey. I did mixed tanks when i first started and still have some. but in the beginning i lost alot of animals...true that most were WC but chances are atleast some of the losses were atleast in part do to the stress caused by mixed species. 

I would say it is a no no for rookies...but for intermediate and more advanced people it can be done with a good chance of success. I also agree that you should have some experience with each species on its own before ever dreaming of mixing.


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## Lukeomelas

I find this to be a very interesting topic. I'm all for keeping frogs in species only tanks with one exception, Large Display tanks. After spending an afternoon at the Atlanta Botanical Gardens, I'm especially leaning towards a rather large display tank that will house two very different dart frog species. I think you have to have a lot of knowledge to pull this off correctly, but i'm not sure I would call it dangerous. 

Of course we are afraid of hybrids, me included. So never house frogs together that could potentially breed. You also have to make sure your frogs are "parasite free" and build the viv to suite the particular needs of each frog species. There are a lot of frogs that come from similar environments that don't occupy the exact same ecological niche. Most of our frogs are kept under the exact same conditions.

People have been keeping fish together forever, I'm not sure frogs are too much different. As long as there is enough room and plenty of food there shouldn't be too many problems. 

If there are some other potential problems people can bring to the table I would love to hear them. 

Just my two cents,

Luke


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## VicSkimmr

To be frank, I don't see the harm in mixing frogs if you don't plan on breeding them and you have the space to do so. The tadpoles won't usually raise themselves 

Territory issues are something else to consider entirely though.


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## bluedart

VicSkimmr said:


> To be frank, I don't see the harm in mixing frogs if you don't plan on breeding them and you have the space to do so. The tadpoles won't usually raise themselves
> 
> Territory issues are something else to consider entirely though.


Hybrids aren't the big issue with mixing, but they are a part of it. We worry about the aggression between frog species, and the possible deaths of many of the mixed tank inhabitants. That's the biggest issue, just to clear that up to those who may be confused (not saying you're confused! But, just in general.)


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## KeroKero

If hybridization was the only issue, I don't think as many people would be against it. Yes, people tend to give hybrids as the first (and only) reason they'd be against it, but there are many other problems that come into play that have been discussed in the threads liked to this one, I recomend you giving them a read. Its more about behavioral incompatability with most PDFs than any hybrid issue.

And if you have a pond in your tank that has detritus... the tadpoles will indeed raise themselves (unless you've got eggfeeders, they need a little help from mom and dad). Most of the species I have kept and bred have had froglets morph in tank with no help from me.


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## themann42

sorry if this is getting off topic, but what's detritus?

i personally won't mix frogs, but for somebody with a lot of experience i wouldn't be totally against it. i would only do so with a super large encloser, and two frogs that are totally different, such as tincs and a more arboreal thumbnail. as long as the enclosure is so large that they aren't forced to interact, and both of their viviarium conditions are met, a couple mixed frogs wouldn't bother me. let me stress the word large.


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## Ed

keeping an enclosure of mixed dart frog species is different than keeping zoogeographically correct sympatric species that do not behave the same. 
In general I think I have been fairly clear and consistant that multiple dendrobatid enclosures are really not what we should contemplating outside of some very specific contexts and/or species mixes.

For example, if the enclosure is large enough and contains some suitable niches, small hylids will not be an issue to the dart frogs as the dendrobatid frogs will not recognize the hylids as competition. The same thing can occur with spaerodactyline geckos or some of the small sympatric anoline lizards for a couple of other examples. 
One of the biggest mistakes is that people design a enclosure and then attempt to match animals to the enclosure's niches or percieved niches as opposed to designing the enclosure for the animals and then evaluating the enclosure once it is completed for suitability for those species. 

Ed


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## Guest

Detritus is decaying waste from animals etc. 

A question: if someone did mix frogs, what would the minimum tank size be, and what species would interact (or not interact) in the best way so they have little effect on each other. I would only consider doing a mixed tank if I were attempting to create a _very _large biotope vivarium. Maybe with pumilio and auratus. (They're both from Costa Rica, right?)


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## KeroKero

In the frog tanks, the detritus is usually more plant matter than animal matter, basically compost in the pond section.


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## Roadrunner

as for hybrids,
you are thinking of donkeys that are sterile. dendros that are crossed can breed. my friend stefan had some azureus/dwarf tinc hybrids that looked pretty cool. although it was a hybrid it grew quicker than any of my dwarfs or azureus. it`s called hybrid vigor. offspring from 2 compatible breeds turn out more hardy and suited for the terrarium or their normal environments than inbred lines. remember mendels peas.
they have the abilty to deal w/ the microhabitats of both species/morphs.
btw crossing morphs is not hybridization. it is done all the time to make new leopard gecko morphs and new ball python morphs which are even more pricey than the purebreeds. i wouldnt do it myself but we have to realize that our frogs are never going back to the wild to restock populations. as long as they are marked as such and not worth what a purebred is worth, it may advance the hobby by someone who wouldnt pay $50 for a frog. they may buy a purple hybrid for $20. everything else gets hybridized, orchids, broms, leos ball pythons etc... loosen up about it a bit. natural intergrades are hybrids occuring naturally w/in their ranges. around here jeffersons and blue spot sallies hybridize frequently. that may be how some of these frogs came about in the first place. all it takes is one tad transported to a different are on the leg of a bird who was in the water and you have a new morph entering the gene pool. his offspring might be better suited for a changing environ than any purebred around and the resulting offspring change the morph living in that area.


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## Guest

just my personal opinion, and im sorry if this offends anyone, but i think that hybridizing is wrong, definatly including morphs. dart morphs are typically indicitave of a specific regional occurance, and if we start crossbreeding morphs, we'll loose that.


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## bluedart

frogfarm said:


> as for hybrids,
> you are thinking of donkeys that are sterile. dendros that are crossed can breed. my friend stefan had some azureus/dwarf tinc hybrids that looked pretty cool. although it was a hybrid it grew quicker than any of my dwarfs or azureus. it`s called hybrid vigor. offspring from 2 compatible breeds turn out more hardy and suited for the terrarium or their normal environments than inbred lines. remember mendels peas.
> they have the abilty to deal w/ the microhabitats of both species/morphs.
> btw crossing morphs is not hybridization. it is done all the time to make new leopard gecko morphs and new ball python morphs which are even more pricey than the purebreeds. i wouldnt do it myself but we have to realize that our frogs are never going back to the wild to restock populations. as long as they are marked as such and not worth what a purebred is worth, it may advance the hobby by someone who wouldnt pay $50 for a frog. they may buy a purple hybrid for $20. everything else gets hybridized, orchids, broms, leos ball pythons etc... loosen up about it a bit. natural intergrades are hybrids occuring naturally w/in their ranges. around here jeffersons and blue spot sallies hybridize frequently. that may be how some of these frogs came about in the first place. all it takes is one tad transported to a different are on the leg of a bird who was in the water and you have a new morph entering the gene pool. his offspring might be better suited for a changing environ than any purebred around and the resulting offspring change the morph living in that area.


Many darts that are hybridized CANNOT crossbreed. Honestly, this post really pissed me off. You are saying that we should PLAY GOD with these animals. And, by the way, there is a difference between dart morphs, and, say, ball python and leopard gecko morphs. Dart morphs are geographically diverse, leo and ball python morphs aren't. Leos and ball pythons were line bred- meaning that when we started with the wild caught ones, we took the ones that had an abundance of a specific, desired, trait and bred that to another specimen with the same trait. These were all same animal, they just looked different. But, with darts, it's different. The animals look different based on the REGION they're from, and more often than not they would not hybridize in the wild, simply because they didn't have to. True enough, sometime the best traits of both parents are exemplified in the offspring, but the poor traits are still there, and with time they will begin to surface and override the good traits. The point of our hobby is not to introduce more people to it by hybridizing, it's to preserve this disappearing group of amazing animals, and learn from them. We keep such detailed records of our animals to keep the lines pure, not to purposefully taint them. What you're suggesting is not only unethical (by many of our standards), but is something which would slow, and reverse, much of the progress we have made by establishing the lines and the hobby-morals that we follow. This is in no way meant to be a flame, but simply meant to be a retort to something that was a bit off.


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## RGB

frogfarm said:


> as long as they are marked as such and not worth what a purebred is worth, it may advance the hobby by someone who wouldnt pay $50 for a frog.


If someone doesn't want to spend $50 on a frog maybe they shouldn't be keeping them. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this hobby isn't cheap. A properly set up Vivarium is gonna run about $100 and that's being conservative. Making "mutts" to get new people into the hobby is a bad idea in my opinion, besides purebred Auratus are regularly available for $20. I say we leave the hybridization to nature and enjoy what we have. It's not like there's a shortage of patterns and colors!


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## Ed

The comment about it being okay as long as the hybrids are represented as hybrids makes it okay makes me cringe because we routinely see posts about what frog is this and the id is made based on the appearence of the frog. A hybrid may look enough like one of the parents or even another morph for someone who buys it to reclassify it because maybe the person selling it didn't know any better. Or they sell the frog and that buyer then does the same thing. 

Ed


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## cbreon

Case and point, a few years ago there were some hybrids of regina and yellowbacks. The breeder realized his mistake and did his best to recall the offspring he sold and compensated the customers. A year or two later another breeder sold me 12 regina froglets for $60 each a great deal but I was skeptical. Upon further inspection I noticed that some of the froglets closely resembed yellowbacks. I showed a prominent breeder friend and he informed me of the situation. He helped me inform the breeder who sold me the frogs. They immediately refunded my money and actually were refunded for their breeders by the original breeder who created the crosses. The parties involved were all credible, well respected breeders and they still had difficulty immediately recognizing the crossbreeds for what they were. I think this should illustrate the main problem with releasing such crosses. Eventually there will be crosses that are no longer identifiable as such and this is where the problem lies. For this reason, I am strongly against crossbreeds in the hobby. Ultimately, some people will lack the responsibility, knowledge, or honesty to identify their crossbreeds.


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## defaced

^That's a damned eloquent responce. I completely agree. 

While I think the idea of crosses would be kinda cool, I certianly don't want to see this hobby turn into the leo/ball hobby whith shotty keepers and dishonest breeder who are in it to make a buck. While some of those people are already here, the reasons presented in Aarons's post would create a market for even more. IMO that's something that isn't needed as the people who have founded this hobby have and those who continue it deserve to have their work respected.



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## Grassypeak

Let us not forget that there is good evidence which shows that hybrids that can reproduce in the F1 generation are not always able to successfully reproduce generation over generation. Theoretically a poorly labeled tinc hybrid could be sold as one of the known morphs. When this hybrid is bred to a true morph that it looks like, the second, or third, or etc generation might end up being sterile. In the killifish hobby fertility problems have ended more than one line of fish, and hybridizing is often suspected.


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## zaroba

wow. interesting reading from all you guys.


i get the different species mixing, but what about different morphes of the same species?
like...would a Dwarf French Guiana Dyeing frog mix with a surinam cobalt dyeing frog? thier the same species, both are tincs.


i had also read on some sites that mixing would be possible in cases such as having a tall tank with an arboreal only frog with a ground dwelling only frog. they would barly interact at all. is this true at all?


please note, i'm only posting this stuff out of curiosity, not because i plan on doing it


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## kyle1745

No that is also frowned upon and in some cases more because they can cross breed.


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## zaroba

just found this pic online of a muesam dart frog display:

http://www.toadilytoads.com/dart_frogs1.jpg

perhaps you can use it as a bad example of a mixed tank.


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## kyle1745

Please check out the basic caresheet I put up on the topic:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14178


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## bluedart

kyle1745 said:


> Please check out the basic caresheet I put up on the topic:
> http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14178


Added to links in opening post.


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## PDFanatic

Funny I have different auratus mixed yet I dont have any eggs or tads but ok guy


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## Ed

There are differences in creating multispecies enclosures where anurans that cannot hybridize versus those that contain species that do hybridize (such as a number of dendrobatid frogs (D. tinctorius, D. leucomelas, D. auratus and D. (azureus) tinctorious for all example all hybridize readily)... and it isn't really any more complex than keeping a male (or males) with a female (or females)... 
The other problem is that the enclosures we create often provide sufficient areas where the frogs can stash tadpoles until they can metamorph.... 


Ed


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## Alex007

*I have 7 different species*

I have 7 different species of the thumbnail group with no problem for about a year. I think its possible with the experience and size frog. I dont plan this soon as i will start breeding each frog and pair them up. Good luck


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## kyle1745

Possible and Ideal are 2 very different things.


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## slaytonp

and size of tank. The entire set-up is important.


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## idyikiter

zaroba said:


> just found this pic online of a muesam dart frog display:
> 
> http://www.toadilytoads.com/dart_frogs1.jpg
> 
> perhaps you can use it as a bad example of a mixed tank.


There is a similar set-up at the sacramento zoo....just saw it last week.


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## Jungle_John

what if one had a 400gal tank with all same sex in it? as for display only. do you think to have a all same sex tank, but many diffrent frogs, to be trouble down the road?

also is there one dart frog that wouldnt be able to bread with another? or are all close enough related? just wondering not planning to.


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## stchupa

kodama16 said:


> what if one had a 400gal tank with all same sex in it? as for display only. do you think to have a all same sex tank, but many diffrent frogs, to be trouble down the road?


People have thought of, and have supposedly been successful at doing so.... But you have to keep in mind/check, there's no guarantee to the same sex getting along aswell. Also just because they don't fight (physically) doesn't mean they get along and aren't bombarding eachother w/ stress. That, and you can consider, what are you preserving in/by mixing?



> also is there one dart frog that wouldnt be able to bread with another? or are all close enough related? just wondering not planning to.


Some darts would think of eating one another before breeding w/ eachother. That should give you an idea.


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## Dartluv

Well putting all one sex isnt a very good idea because females are VERY agressive. The thing of the matter is that people get bored looking at just one type of frog in a tank at one time (dont ask me why  ) so they think mixing would help. I dont understand that. If the results of having a mixed tank is something that could become potentially harmful to the frog why consider it? Its not something that should even be thought of. It can get bad enough having just one speices of frog in one tank (due to bullying) So if you havent guessed im mostly against it. Unless they are juvinille...


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## bstorm83

I came into this thread alittle late but i will chime in anyway

Since this is the beginners section all beginers probably should not mix at all they should get the expierence of it all first. Mixing from the begining could cause alot of problems with aggression especially and always the chance of interbreeding. 

Its best to get expierence and understand which frogs could co-hanbitat safely with one another first


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## drbp

I don't know how I missed this thread. It just kills me though. Judging by this poll, 80% of members on DendroBoard feel that mixing is O.K. in some respect or another and yet, the extremely loud 20% minority has dominated the board and made the topic taboo as they assault anyone who even asks the questiong...crazy. It would really be nice if those members with mixing experience could share it without fear of attack.

-ben


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## Ed

It depends on how you define mixing.... Mixing can be any of the following, multiple types of dart frogs, dart frogs and other animals or both. 

Unless the person accounts for the different types of dart frogs interactions and is willing to destroy egg clutches and/or euthanize tadpoles/metamorphs. I am not in favor of mixing different dendrobatids. 

If the person is willing to research out zoogeographic correct multispecies enclosures and use animals that are suited for the niches in the tank once it has been set-up as opposed to simply shoehonring animals in to see if it works then I have no problems with it. 

Ed


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## JBR

I think the reason that the 20% is so vocal is 90% of the mixing questions are in the beginners section from someone with 9 posts that are all the beginning of a topic. I also am having problems with my vote because I fall somewhere between #1 and #2 I think it is possible and may someday do it in a huge enclosure but wouldn't recommend it to anyone who isn't going to put a lot of effort into getting it right the first time.

John


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## bbrock

drbp said:


> I don't know how I missed this thread. It just kills me though. Judging by this poll, 80% of members on DendroBoard feel that mixing is O.K. in some respect or another and yet, the extremely loud 20% minority has dominated the board and made the topic taboo as they assault anyone who even asks the questiong...crazy. It would really be nice if those members with mixing experience could share it without fear of attack.
> 
> -ben


I disagree with your interpretation. My interpretation is that 49% of respondants do not think mixing is okay but about 2/3 of those (29% of all respondents) acknowledge that it can be done with very careful planning. So I interpret these results as the respondents being evenly split between considering mixing as generally good, or generally bad. And the vast majority indicating that you have to be very careful if you do it.

The reason that people are so vocal about it is that if mixed offspring get into the hobby and are misrepresented (which has already happened), it threatens the genetic integrity of all frogs. And I suspect those cautions are being voiced by people in 3 of the 4 poll choices we see here.


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## drbp

> I disagree with your interpretation...the respondents being evenly split between considering mixing as generally good, or generally bad. And the vast majority indicating that you have to be very careful if you do it.


BBrock- Regardless of how you decide to decipher the results, the fact remains that there is a big split (be it 20/80 or 50/50) in opinion regarding mixing. However, there are very few who are willing to post their experiences with mixing because they know that they will be berated on the board. It's just annoying.

As if to prove my point, you go on with...


> The reason that people are so vocal about it is that if mixed offspring get into the hobby and are misrepresented...yada-yada-yada


OMG...Like everyone hasn't heard this argument a million times. Irrelevent in this discussion. The pros and cons have been blasted at us ad infinitum.

I just wish that those who have experience (be it positive or negative) could share with the group without fear of others saying things like "I wouldn't sell PDFs to you" or "you are an irresponsible hobbyest". Isn't sharing our PDF experiences the whole point of the DendroBoard?

-Ben


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## bbrock

Okay, here's an experience. A friend of mine successfully kept D. auratus and P. vittatus together in a 10 gallon aquarium and they both bred. Search the archives hard enough and you will see that I have posted this little tidbit many times before. It wasn't ideal, but it worked.

I do find your attitude puzzling. There are some serious ramifications from mixing and/or hybridizing and yes, those problems have been posted over and over. And the questions about mixing keep coming. So it would be irresponsible not to provide comprehensive responses to these questions or at least point them to the sources of that information.

There is also some important data missing in the poll. And that is whether there is a correlation between the experience level of the respondents and the way they answered the question. But to say that only a 20% vocal minority is against mixing is silly. All but 10% of the responses have indicated that care and caution is necessary. So I suspect that 90% of us agree that on the issue of mixing, it is important to point out the potential pitfalls.

For the record, I am not one of the 20% who is completely against it. But I do think it is a bad idea for beginners to start out with mixed tanks for a variety of reasons. But I will unapologetically continue to voice concerns about inadvertently producing hybrids which could become mislabeled in the hobby. And to date, I haven't figured out any way other than a mixed tank to produce hybrids. 

I agree with you that experiences should be shared. And I think if you look hard enough, you will see that they have. But to conclude that the topic has become taboo simply because a small minority of cranks yells too much is nonsense. I think this poll strongly suggests that the majority of the hobby agrees that mixing is not something to be done lightly.


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## elmoisfive

I'm still waiting to see the evidence that shows that mixing is a positive thing for the animals involved. Our emphasis should be on optimizing the conditions of captivity if we should choose to keep them as opposed to just testing the boundaries of those conditions to avoid killing or seriously harming them.

After seeing quite a bit of same species/same morph frog on frog aggression and behavioral suppression, I am hard pressed to see what the upside that mixing provides to the frogs. I always ask myself the question when I see this topic pop back up is what possesses people to mix in the first place?

Just my 0.02

Bill


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## Ed

Hi Bill 

snip "I'm still waiting to see the evidence that shows that mixing is a positive thing for the animals involved. Our emphasis should be on optimizing the conditions of captivity if we should choose to keep them as opposed to just testing the boundaries of those conditions to avoid killing or seriously harming them."endsnip


How restricted a definition are you using for a positive thing for the animals involved? 

Please define what you consider to be optimizing the conditions of captivity.Suspect that there isn't a general consensus on this part of the topic. 


snip "After seeing quite a bit of same species/same morph frog on frog aggression and behavioral suppression, I am hard pressed to see what the upside that mixing provides to the frogs."endsnip 

I am assuming that this statement refers to the mixing of dendrobatids as opposed to multispecies enclosures involving one dendrobatid and other frog species? 


Ed


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## bbrock

Ed said:


> Hi Bill
> How restricted a definition are you using for a positive thing for the animals involved?
> 
> Ed


I can't speak for Bill, but I would accept even theoretically sound, but not necessarily tested, examples. Things like, if one species feeds on the detritus of another species. Or one species eats the large stuff in meadow plankton which could harm another species.

I do know from personal observation that the higher the density of frogs in a vivarium, the less "natural" their behaviors become because no matter what they engage in, it doesn't take long for another frog to come close and disrupt whatever they are doing. So, for me, a mixed species vivarium is less interesting unless it can be done in large vivs that still allow for an overall low population density of all of the top order consumers (things that eat other stuff in the viv but are never eaten themselves).

I shouldn't post this on the beginner forum but current ecological science suggests that mixing closely related species could likely lead to trouble. Each species occupies a particular niche in the place where they live. The more similar two species' niches are, the more intensely they will compete with each other for resources. Intense competition leads to stress. There is a large body of ecological research that bears this out as a general rule in nature. Some resources like food can be provided in overabundance in a vivarium to reduce competition. But other resources, like space, cannot. Given that all dart frogs occupy fairly similar niches in a vivarium, competition is almost a given.

Of course Ed correctly points out that mixed species does not have to be mixes of dendrobatids. All of us already keep mixed species vivaria. The springtails, isopods, and microbes in a vivarium occupy vastly different niches which provide the frogs with beneficial services. Ed has posted many times about how species like lizards, or even other frogs can be mixed with dendrobatids in ways that do not appear to influence the frogs.

But there is a question that always has to be asked. If you never become familiar with an animal in a single species environment, how will you recognize signs of stress when they are mixed with other dendrobatids?

Personally, I think mixed species biotopes are cool. But I think they are best approached with very large vivaria. Usually something at least as large as a refridgerator. But that is just my opinion.


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## slaytonp

elmoisfive said:


> I always ask myself the question when I see this topic pop back up is what possesses people to mix in the first place?
> 
> Just my 0.02
> 
> Bill


They want a colorful show--resembling a marine tank or even a mixed tropical tank. It's more of a decorative choice, at least until they begin to appreciate the other joys and interesting activities among single species. the fantastic colors is what attracts people into the hobby in the first place, but it's often quite a job to convince them there are even better things to see.


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## Ed

Hi Brent,

There are more abstract things that can be "positives" for the animal. What if you could set up a multianimal exhibit of same/similar animals that while restricting the behaviors and providing a consistant low level stress ended up providing sufficinet funding to secure that animal's habitat or put into place a funded in situe preservation program (and yes I am bringing up rarely seen pie in the sky extremes). These are positives for the frogs over all but maybe negatives in the short term for the frogs involved..

As I have mentioned before, I do not tend to favor keeping species that can hybridize together due to the competition etc but if carefully researched and attention is paid to detail it can be done... but usually probably shouldn't. 

Ed


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## elmoisfive

Ed,

I would agree that there is unlikely a consensus about what constitutes a set of optimal conditions for captive dart frogs. However being a scientist I am usually asking to see the data when hypotheses are ventured...I suspect this irritates some members of the board though.

From my own perspective, I would look to life span of the animals involved and their ability to demonstrate sustainable breeding in a manner that is both paced and high quality as two measures that I would benchmark in assessing outcomes.

I don't accept that the absence of clearly bad outcomes translates to a net positive or even a neutral situation. So a description that someone kept dart frog A with dart frog B together or even dart frog A and species X and no one died and perhaps one even had some breeding going on short term isn't terribly satisfactory.

However if someone were to describe a well documented example of how a dart frog species was mixed long term with some other animals and a parallel control of the same dart frog species kept by itself under identical conditions...that could prove to be quite interesting. Otherwise we are left with observations that aren't bad or incorrect...just incomplete.

My biggest problem with the concept of mixing is that most individuals are working with relatively confined enclosures. A 75 gallon aquarium is large compared to a 10 gallon but it's still a small glass box. While I have no doubt that dart frogs come in contact with other animals in the wild on a constant basis, I suspect that they don't live in constant proximity 24/7 with treefrogs, African geckos and the like.

I don't have the experience or eloquence of Brent in describing potential scenarios where combination of animals could provide benefit each other but I'm aligned with his sentiments in that regard.

At the end of the day each keeper of dart frogs will reach their own conclusion about how they wish to house their frogs. That is their choice and their right. I won't provide animals to individuals who I know are planning on mixing....my personal choice.

I have to admit that my position on mixing has hardened significantly as I've made a pretty rapid transition from the 'dart frogs are neat animals to keep' to thinking much more about the conservation aspects of the hobby. Layer on that a personal philosophy that if I take on the responsibility of keeping an animal in captivity, my obligation is to do what is best for that animal even if it conflicts with own personal desires.

Bill


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## Ed

Hi Bill,

Unfortunately its unlikely that we will ever see truely controlled experiments comparing the two different scenarios mainly due to the institutions that could handle these experiments in a controlled fashion do not have the resources to do so.. So in retrospect we have to rely in some fashion on either uncontrolled (single exhibit) or anecdotal evidence. 

When looking at life span a lot of people get hung up here because they only pay attention to the maximal recorded life span of an animal and make the jump that all because x animal didn't live y years something is wrong. People need to look at the median lifespan of the animal as this is going to be the number that supplies the better information. If under n conditions a number of x animal lives z years and this is close to or exceeds the median life span then you have some information you can use. If the animals are not meeting or exceeding median life span then you have to look at the idea that there is something going on with those animals (and determine if it is husbandry related, something else, or a combination of factors). 

At work I have done multispecies enclosures for varius lengths of time usually for years (including close to a decade for some) without issue but these take time and effort to plan and set-up before the first animals are ever placed together. If mutispecies enclosures are going to be considered then the animals should be from the same zoogeographic zones for multiple reasons which I have covered elsewhere. 
Have to run so I will try to finish this later (this isn't a complete reponse on my part). 

Ed


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## bbrock

Ed said:


> Hi Brent,
> 
> There are more abstract things that can be "positives" for the animal. What if you could set up a multianimal exhibit of same/similar animals that while restricting the behaviors and providing a consistant low level stress ended up providing sufficinet funding to secure that animal's habitat or put into place a funded in situe preservation program (and yes I am bringing up rarely seen pie in the sky extremes). These are positives for the frogs over all but maybe negatives in the short term for the frogs involved..


Sure, I accept those types of positives. However, I would not call it "positives for the animal" so much as positives for the species. And in this regard, there are a number of good reasons for keeping animals in less than "optimal" conditions. But as you've indicated, the example given here has little application for private displays. I doubt many of us have major conservation donors waltzing through our living rooms and throwing money at frog conservation based on what they've seen there.



> As I have mentioned before, I do not tend to favor keeping species that can hybridize together due to the competition etc but if carefully researched and attention is paid to detail it can be done... but usually probably shouldn't.


And this is part of why this debate keeps coming up because there are really two issues here. The first is whether it is good for the animals to set them in a mixed set-up. Given enough thought and planning, I'm convinced it can be done with minimal adverse effects and possibly even some positive ones. But those decisions don't really threaten the hobby - only the animals and idividuals involved. But mixing animals without a clear understanding of hybridization and its ramifications in the hobby DOES threaten the hobby. It's the old "what you do in your own home is your business until it effects other people" kind of thing.

Oh, and for examples of what not to do. In my youth I set up a mixed vivarium with a gray treefrog, a carolina anole, and a tiger salamander. It ended very badly for the treefrog who got too close to the salamander.


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## Ed

Hi Bill,

to try and finish commenting on a complex topic... 

The size of the enclosure to some extent should not be the first consideration but how that enclosure is ultimately setup and the spatial areas in it resolved. With careful consideration, you can setup a smallish enclosure that could house a pair of dendrobatids and potentially several small conspecific hylids (like H. ebraccata but probably not set up to breed either species) but this requires carefully planning out the details first. With a smallish enclosure you are going to restrict the behaviors of the dendrobatids in any case.... but most people who are attempting to set up a multispecies enclosure have set it up as a generalist enclosure or have set it up mainly for one species are attempting to include other species into it post design and set up. This is where the greatest number of issues occurs (omitting the hybridization issues).

I am going to throw this one out there as I don't think I have seen it discussed as of yet.... 

One of the things we should probably consider is that there are people who's entry into the hobby is going to be with the equivalent of a community tank of tropical fish... There should be an information resource out there for them that doesn't include a flame attack or telling them how they have doomed their frogs and how horrible they are. They should be coaxed along as a portion of these people (as in the fish hobby) are going to graduate along to more serious levels of the hobby. A negative response to them may simply cause them to no longer use this resource causing them to seek information elsewhere where it may not be adequate or sufficient to engage them in the long run. 


Ed


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## Ed

Hi Brent,

Ahh I could only wish I had the contacts to get rich people waltzing through my living room and throwing money at frog conservation.... 


One of the things that makes me cringe every time I see the post is when I see what kind of frog is this.. I got it as x but it looks like y... 

If you can't tell what it is, and don't have a reputable origin then it probably should not be bred.... 

I can name a couple that didn't work such as broad headed skinks and rough green snakes... (yum)... 
Dumeril's ground boas and Standing's Day geckos (yum...)
American Alligator and Great Horned Owl (yum)
Greater siren and green tree frog (yum)

but I can also name some that worked very well.... 
Surinam Toads and Eyelash vipers,
Emerald Tree Boa, Rio Cauca Caecilians and RETF (the occasional RETF that died would be scavenged by the caecilians leaving a skeleton of the frog behing)
Squirrel tree frogs, Central Red Spotted Newts, Dwarf Sirens


Ed


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## Groundhog

*HEY GUYS--this month's Reptiles magazine!!*

To the whole posse:

Have you seen this month's Reptiles magazine? 

Therein is an article by Rex Lee Searcy on creating a tropical vivarium. Now, I have learned a lot reading his stuff (when I started reading him nine years ago, many considered me an expert--well, I learned ...) I usually agree with him. And I too, have had long-term success with a mixed paludarium. For years I kept a flying gecko, anoles, small hylids, a big Polypedates dennysii, dwarf clawed frogs, a mudskipper, bumblebee gobies, spiketail paradise fish, an African butterfly and Lisa the Argentine lungfish in a 55--they did quite well... ( Yes Corey, I am aware of the temperature, salinity and pH considerations :wink: )

But in Searcy's article, do you see the variety of organisms that he recommends for ONE ENCLOSURE? 

I mean, mantises with danios and long tailed grass lizards and FOUR species of pdfs?!? Word? :shock: 

How big is this enclosure, a #[email protected]%@ Florida room? :? 

Geez, and da people accuse me of pushing the envelope... 

Please read the article. Any serious feedback would be appreciated.


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## kyle1745

I also think they see it in Zoos and like the idea. I really wish the Zoos would stop this practice.



slaytonp said:


> elmoisfive said:
> 
> 
> 
> I always ask myself the question when I see this topic pop back up is what possesses people to mix in the first place?
> 
> Just my 0.02
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> 
> They want a colorful show--resembling a marine tank or even a mixed tropical tank. It's more of a decorative choice, at least until they begin to appreciate the other joys and interesting activities among single species. the fantastic colors is what attracts people into the hobby in the first place, but it's often quite a job to convince them there are even better things to see.
Click to expand...


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## Groundhog

*That's the answer*

They--we--want to attempt to do the terrestrial equivalent of a reef tank. The motivation is primarily an aesthetic one.

In all candor, though, if the enclosure is large enough, I really cannot see a problem with certain combinations, e.g.:

--a subtropical 20H tank with green anoles and grey tree frogs;
--a neotropical 29H tank with a pair of south American hylids and Caribbean anoles;
--an "African" tank with small day geckos and reed frogs;
--an Asian tank with flying geckos and whatever...

You get the idea. Look, I admit that the paludarium I had was over-the-top--but, man it looked good. 

I am just curious if you guys feel so adamant about mixing species because the primary focus is breeding and not display.


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## Ed

kyle1745 said:


> I also think they see it in Zoos and like the idea. I really wish the Zoos would stop this practice.



Why? 



Its also not appropriate to give people the idea that only animal can be found in a certain biome....... A lot of it depends on how its done... 


Ed


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## Ed

I read the article and the set-up is not going to be stable for the long term. 
This is one of the items where I have strong issues with it for a number of reasons including poor animal choicel.... 

Ed


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## kyle1745

For example the Columbus Zoo has mid size custom tank as the main display and it has anywhere from 20 or more frogs in at time with anything from leucs, tincs, terbilis, and etc in it. This is far from ideal, and in my opinion not a good example of how they should be housed.

I agree it can be done if done right, but the general public perception and understanding of what they are looking at is not the same as someone with experience. Most people also do not know what signs of stress or aggression look like.




Ed said:


> kyle1745 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also think they see it in Zoos and like the idea. I really wish the Zoos would stop this practice.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?
> Its also not appropriate to give people the idea that only animal can be found in a certain biome....... A lot of it depends on how its done...
> 
> Ed
Click to expand...


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## Ed

Hi Kyle,

I will agree that it may often be the case that some exhibits are stocked at levels higher with numbers than most frogger would be comfortable.

Ed


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## bbrock

The Henry Doorly zoo had a pretty terrible display of pdf last time I was there. It had the mix of tinctorius, azureus, auratus, and leucs, but most disturbing was that the enclosure was sopping wet. A great deal of the surface area had water trickling over it and the frogs spend most of their time ankle deep in water. I don't recall seeing any kind of leaf litter or dry subtrate that could get into. And overall, the enclosure was much more suited to arboreal species than the animals it actually housed. It's been several years so I don't know if that display still exists.


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## Ed

Oddly enough getting too wet is why I am getting things together to break down the dart frog exhibit at work. Eisenia worms colonized our greenhouse and if you use any planted plants in an enclosure the substrate is toast fairly quickly. 
There is some resistance as the pool is full of H. ebracatta tadpoles and there are egg clutches every week and the interpreters and the public like seeing the tadpoles. But it'll take me more than a few weeks to get the stuff together so the tads will have plenty of time to morph out (and the rest will be pulled to morph). 

Ed


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## melissa68

I think one of the most disappointing exhibits I saw was the Newport Aquarium. 

Over populated & mixed.


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## sounddrive

i would sum it up in one simple statement. if you have darts its probably cause you love the way they look, the way they act, everything. so if there is any possibility that multi species tanks could potentially stress the occupants why take the chance. its not like it has to be done you have the choice as responsible care takers of a living being to provide them with the best home possible. why not do that by at least giving them something to call there own.

Steve


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## Brian Ferriera

The bottom line ..people are gonna do what they want to do.... their is plenty of info out their about this people need to make thier own decisions its to bad it had to come at the frogs expense.
Brian


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## AlexRible

hmmm why does it seem that all these zoos and aquariums have poor dart frog set ups, they are supposed be the experienced ones...
There is this little aquarium not too far way my house called Jenkinson's aquarium. I haven't been there in a year or two but, they have a 55 gal tank with Azureus, Cobalts, Patricias, leucomelas and auratus in it.

some pics
Jenkinson's Aquarium in Point Pleasant 2007 - a set on Flickr

Well any way its my opinion that just because you can mix some species together with some success doesn't mean you should, but they are your frogs do with them what you wish.


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## MonarchzMan

Zoos generally have mixed tanks for a couple reasons. Space for one. They generally don't have the space to have six species in six separate tanks (let alone morphs). And partially because of that, two, they want to exhibit what they have. The more they show, the more interest they're going to get from the public, the more money they're going to generate. Fortunately, it's just the public view. In the back rooms, they keep things separate for breeding. But still, it's not ideal, for sure. At least in most cases.


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## AlexRible

MonarchzMan said:


> Zoos generally have mixed tanks for a couple reasons. Space for one. They generally don't have the space to have six species in six separate tanks (let alone morphs). And partially because of that, two, they want to exhibit what they have. The more they show, the more interest they're going to get from the public, the more money they're going to generate. Fortunately, it's just the public view. In the back rooms, they keep things separate for breeding. But still, it's not ideal, for sure. At least in most cases.


That is true, but if I remember correctly and maybe Im not I was 8 or 9 when i went. The national Aquarium in baltimore has a very nice display with multiple tanks for each species/morphs.


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## dom

wow i finally got to the end of this thread.. amazing it was.. and lots or good points were made on mixed species from both points of view..

Just be smart about your choices!


goodnight!


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## MonarchzMan

AlexRible said:


> That is true, but if I remember correctly and maybe Im not I was 8 or 9 when i went. The national Aquarium in baltimore has a very nice display with multiple tanks for each species/morphs.


I've seen a couple zoos/aquariums that have had single species exhibits, and more power to them. You just gotta look at what they have available as far as space. For instance, Shedd aquarium in Chicago has about a 20 foot wall devoted to frogs. Of the whole aquarium, frogs get a 20 foot wall. There was about 6 tanks, if memory serves that were each 2ish feet wide, 6 feet tall, and probably 4-5 feet in depth. Obviously, the entirety of anurans cannot be summed up in six single species tanks, so as a result, they mixed species. They had several species of mantellas together, several species of darts together, several species of temperate species together, and so on. And I understand them having to do that simply because of space issues.

Now personally, I think that zoos can mix responsibly. But in my experience, they don't seem to. IMO, mixing should be done based on life histories of frogs, not "what looks good." I see so many posts about people wanting to mix tincs and pumilio or auratus and tincs or auratus and leucs, etc. In the wild, these species are not going to see each other. At all. So they're not going to have any sort of adaptation to one another. At the Shedd, I saw Atelopus zeteki mixed with pumilio. To my knowledge, these species require completely different temperature/humidity/habitat requirements and aren't sympatric. Thus there is no reason to mix them. Pumilio haven't been acclimated evolutionarily to the toxins found in Atelopus skin, for example.

But that said, I have seen multiple species of darts congregated together. I have seen Lugubris, Auratus, and Pumilio all within a square meter. IMO, if you were to mix, you need to take into account personal experience and knowledge of the species, have a sufficient space for all species involved and take into account species behavior and sympatry. For instance, I think that you could keep Pumilio and Auratus together without problem. BUT, you need a large area (not a 90 or 200 gallon tank, I'm talking about something like a 3'x6'x6' tank), and you have to accommodate for the various behaviors. If done right, the frogs won't interact much at all because pumilio are semi-arboreal (I have seen a great deal of pumilio 1-5 meters in trees) and will use vertical structure and auratus are ground dwellers. It is because of that, I believe that if done right, a mixed tank could work.

But, I haven't seen very many people who want to do that. I see people who have a 55 and want to mix it. That, I don't agree with. The frogs are forced to interact with one another and conflicting behaviors can stress frogs (i.e. territoriality). IMO, if you want to mix, know the frogs your working with and know that they need a TON of space.


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## AlexRible

MonarchzMan you make some very valid points and I am more than aware that not every zoo/aquarium has space for a bunch of tanks just dart frog.
Anyways i couldn't help but notice that you are from Kalamazoo I didn't know it was a real town. kalamazoo is my favorite primus song.


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## BillB55

Thanks for the interesting thread and great info! I guess I'm against mixing, after reading everything.

For one thing, it seems like the relatively-new dart frog hobby is in the position of still being able to protect the genetic integrity of our captive-bred animals, unlike for example the snake hobbyists, who breed every possible tongue-twisting color morph imaginable. Protecting the genetic integrity is important--because if you lose it, and lose the wild populations, you can never get it back. Never. (I'll be interested to read the arguments against this, to see whether they are based on what's good for the frogs vs. good only for the frog keepers...)

Also, there are a lot of posts justifying why it's OK to mix in zoo and aquarium tanks, having mostly to do with lack of space. This doesn't seem like a very good argument, for two reasons. First, zoos spend a tremendous amount of money and labor these days creating huge habitats for single species groups, as a result of getting away from the pathetic caged-animal zoos of prior years. Why should frogs not be optimally housed as well? And again, as Bill keeps saying, it's what's best for the frogs, not what's best for us. I don't think multiple dart frog morphs and species would be forced to socially interact in tiny slices of their habitat in the wild.

Just as important, I think, is the message it sends. How many people see that mixed tank at the public aquarium and say, "I want one of those!" And it must be the right way to do things, because that's what the zoo is doing, right?

Anyway, my two cents.

Bill


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## MonarchzMan

You have to keep in mind that PDFs probably aren't considered charismatic megafauna. When people come to zoos and aquariums, the large majority go to see the elephants, giraffes, sharks, etc. Very few go to see little frogs. As a result, spacing displays that. The Lions and Tigers and Bears all get the big, nice, spacey pens because those are the money makers. Zoos do what they can, no doubt, but when it comes to priorities, I don't think that amphibians are real high on the list.


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## dabruno

sorry to bring a sore topic back up but... what if you kept a mostly terrestrial frog
(like d. imitator[i think]) with a mostly aboreal frog like (d. auratus, d. azureus, etc)in a big/tall tank? not that im going to do this but im just curious.


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## heaventreeofstars

dabruno said:


> sorry to bring a sore topic back up but... what if you kept a mostly terrestrial frog
> (like d. imitator[i think]) with a mostly aboreal frog like (d. auratus, d. azureus, etc)in a big/tall tank? not that im going to do this but im just curious.


First off the imis are arboreal and the tincs and auratus are terrestrial. Regardless, this is not a very good idea especially for a beginner due to a number of unique challenges that mixing creates such as hybrid offspring and stress. Also, it would require a very large tank to limit their interactions. I suppose it could be done, but it is just very very difficult to ensure the health of all the animals inside.


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## Philsuma

a mostly terrestrial frog
(like d. imitator[i think]) with a mostly aboreal frog like (d. auratus, d. azureus, etc)in a big/tall tank? 


I think you have those frog species backwards.....either way, not a good mix.


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## MonarchzMan

Even if it's a large tank, the species are not sympatric, so I would say a never mix with those.


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## dabruno

sorry i had those mixed up and as i said, just curiosity
would there be any terrestrial frog that would work with any aboreal frog?


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## Philsuma

You are not going to like this answer...but....unless you are an "advanced" hobbyist with much experience with frogs...then:


Not really.....no.


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## dabruno

im not asking this for me im asking for all of dendroboard(sorry if that sounds corny)


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## Philsuma

Not corny at all.....

But

Your question / mixing senario has been debated here on Dendroboard for eons (long time)....all one has to do is hit the search feature for "Mixed tanks" or "Mixed species" ect and be prepared to read.


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## Riley

Never mix...it's just another good reason to have more tanks!


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## sports_doc

after 5 pages, I dont think anything more needs to be said.


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