# Panamanian Frog Farm where pumilio are farm raised



## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

These are pictures of the actual greenhouses where the recent shipments of farm-raised pumilio are coming from. These are being posted with permission of both the importer, who is currently the only one bringing in pumilio, and the exporter who owns the farm. Please do not reproduce or use without permission.










This is one of 5 or 6 greenhouses on the propery. Each greenhouse is divided into 4 separate sections. Each greenhouse has a cement moat surrounding it to keep ants and other harmful insects out.










You can see from the plant growth that this project has been in the works for quite some time.










Here you can see some of the many artificial tadpole deposition sites. You can also see fruit on the ground which attracts and feeds the insects which the frogs then feed on.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Thanks Robb - good to see this.

s


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Wow that's a cool way to look at where we get our frogs. Those that are wild caught/wild raised. It's kind of what I want to do to my basement. But my wife said no f*&%ing way.
Mike


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Very cool....
Wish it stayed warm enough here to have a set up like that at my house.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

Well..... that ends that debate  It seemed like everyone was having such a good time disagreeing too. Really though, thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention. That is an absolutely amazing setup. If their operation is run 1/2 as well and ecologically responsible as it looks, I would be proud to purchase frogs from these people.


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## tkavan01 (Mar 17, 2004)

awesome, did you take the pics?
i want to see more! wish there where pics of the frogs too!
oh well guess i'll have to try and go there myself, not that they'd let me in 
or anything but still, why am i so curious...

maybe the fact that the frogs are actually farm raised is why there are so many almirates and so few of the other morphs, maybe the other morphs just aren't putting out the quantities... do these farms raise alot of the GB's?
i guess the gb's have a much higher output and the farmer's are trying to move them... 
ok i'm rambling i have a bunch of other thoughts that i guess can't be answered either

thanks for the pictures


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Wow now this is what I have been waiting for. I was just talking to one of the guys at the New England meeting on how im really waiting for some pics of this operation to come out and I knew they had to be around some where other wise something was fishy. It does look great but im still skeptical that all the frogs are coming form that farm. Thats alot of Auratus to be pumping out along with the pums. But seeing how this can be done it would be great if more of these frog farms could start up over there or other countrys so the boys and gals over here and europe could enjoy more of these frogs and mabey even for cheaper.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

The farm has been going for a few years now. That is why there have been such a large number of adults available. In regards to the volume of auratus produced, ask anyone who has bred these frogs, they are extrememly prolific and several years of worth of breeding will produce a very large number of frogs.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

how come i cant see the pictures?


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I can't see them either.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

They were up last night for me, but not anymore. I think it looks great, makes me wish i could do something, but probally would have to cool the greenhouse.

I think that the server is down, because i went to his website and it was down.

Ryan


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## bluetip (May 18, 2004)

Now, THAT is a frog room... :shock: :shock: :shock: 

Our tropical climate will sure be perfect for such a setup! Now the only thing I need are the frogs!  


bluetip


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I can't see the pictures?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

My apologies, my server went down at some point last night. You should be able to see the pictures now.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Wow, and then there was light!

I wonder if they get any escapies?


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Absolutely awesome, thanks for posting the photographs. If anymore come your way don't hesitate to post them as well,


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Who is in charge of this operation and does anyone know if there are plans on starting up more of these in Panama. The start up costs must be really cheap and the turn arounds gotta be pretty good with an enclosure that size let alone multaple ones. And as they can see they would have no prob moving frogs. But I would really hate to see pums and other frogs coming over in such numbers that even the local PetSmart is selling them for 20$.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Part of the charm of the frogs is that not every knuckle head (i.e., kids - I was guilty of killing many a fish when I was younger) can get them. Petco or Petsmart getting them would be a nightmare...I can see a lot of dead frogs from people who really don't care abou them.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

yeah i don't know if i really like the idea of a bunch of frog farms popping up. it's nice for now...but unevitably if it catches on then you have more people doing it, the quality of care goes down because they just want to make a quick buck, and the frogs suffer. and if pet stores started selling these....it'd really be a shame.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2004)

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Who is in charge of this operation and does anyone know if there are plans on starting up more of these in Panama. The start up costs must be really cheap and the turn arounds gotta be pretty good with an enclosure that size let alone multaple ones


The individual who owns this is a private individual in Panama. As far as it is known there are no known plans for other people to do the same thing. Keep in mind that this individual has over 5 years invested in this farm. While the "start up costs may seem really cheap" this individual has had to do this with the governments ok and supervision. It is also not uncommon for exporters in other countries to establish c/b programs. That represents a great deal of time nd thus opportunity cost. This was all done without the guarantee of being able to export. He happens to be an avid frog lover himself.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

WOW that is cool...


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I know at first it must have taken alot of work and getting through red tape to get the operation off the ground but I figured that after the first farm got going that it would open the door for other farms to take off. Im not saying that I want so many pums imported that pet co is selling themat all, but I do really like the idea of cb breeding programs for many reasons. And there is still room for more frogs to come in and a little drop in pirce so that more responcible hobbyists can obtain them with out having to kill there bank acount.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

There is a happy medium here...somewhere!


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2004)

If history is any guide, the closest thing to captive breeding long term is going to be that which happens in the local (US) private markets from those who buy and breed w/c or ranched imports. History shows that these exports will be closed down at some point (changes in laws, trade policies, international organizations, or governments ) and it usually happens sooner rather than later. We, as hobbyists and collectors, are the only real hope to keep frogs available in the hobby for others for the long haul. While we all like the idea of overseas captive breeding, the reality of it is that these programs always seem to be spotty, inconsistent, or somewhat short lived. I'd love to be wrong on this (re: the Panama farm) but it hasnt seemed to work that way. One can imagine the day where dart frogs are ranched in large numbers like iguanas, but if you really think about it, is that the best way to go? I think many of us would be disheartend walking into our local petco and seeing 30 skinny and sick darts who are being neglected by pople who don't know squat about them and could care less.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I agree 100% and thats one reason why im happy that these frogs have come in even if it isnt for much longer. Now there are alot more people that can get ahold of some of these frogs who could very well be sucessful with the but werent having any luck getting cbs. It really is going to take the hobbyists to keep this going and all these imports have been a real help to move some frogs into more hands and hopefully will inturn move there F1s into even more hands.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I agree 100% and thats one reason why im happy that these frogs have come in even if it isnt for much longer. Now there are alot more people that can get ahold of some of these frogs who could very well be sucessful with the but werent having any luck getting cbs. It really is going to take the hobbyists to keep this going and all these imports have been a real help to move some frogs into more hands and hopefully will inturn move there F1s into even more hands.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Farm Raised Pumilio*

Let me preface what I am going to say by making the statement that I have no problem with the collection or sale of WC dart frogs. There is some inherent risk and I have lost probably a few thousand over the years on WC's, Tincs-Histos-Pumilio but I have always understood the risk and been willing to take the chance. My preference is to work with WC's knowing that they have been raised on a natural diet and have genetic diversity. Also most WC populations of darts recover very quickly from collecting if given the chance to do so. Now here goes...
To think that literally hundreds of adult frogs that have shipped to the US have been raised in these enclosures is beyond naive. I have no doubt that there is some production coming from these facilities but to think that 1000+ frogs have been held and raised to adulthood so they could be shipped over the last 4 months is not realistic. I am not trying to ruin anything for anybody and definately not trying to make attempt to hinder the export of these animals. These animals have created more excitement in the hobby than I have seen in a couple of years and I hope the exporters make some attempt to "farm" some of the rarer morphs. My guess is these rarer morphs require a longer boat trip or mountain hike to inaccessable areas but I am sure once the seed stock is collected hundreds of adults will be available shortly thereafter (things grow quickly with all of that sunshine). I am obviously risking my own access to these animals by making these observations as some making money on these importations will feel this is an attack on them...it is most definately not. But I cannot stand by without making this commentary as a responsible member of the dart frog community. I hope I don't offend anyone but I would bet $s to donuts that my above statement is more accurate than most would like to admit. I would hope that these facilities (in Panama and other countries) can ultimately satisfy the demand for these animals and that their natural habitat will always exist.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Mark, maybe you are correct and I am naive, but I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion. I have seen similar pics to what Robb has posted here, showing other greenhouses that appear to represent quite an operation. That, coupled with my understanding that the male to female ratio of the imports has been pretty even leads me to believe that the talk of illegally collected frogs is overplayed.

If the frogs were being collected from the wild, one would expect an inordinate number of males to be shipped in due to the fact that males are much more easily located in the wild by their calling. If frogs are being collected from confined enclosures, one would expect the more balanced male/female ratios we have been seeing.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

The *only* thing that makes me doubt that the operation is legit, is the number of Auratas coming in.

The greenhouse(s) in question could conceivably produce those numbers of pums, but *not* if they're also producing those numbers of Auratas.

Undoubtedly they do have the pums at the greenhouse(s), so maybe if it isn't truly a legit operation at this moment, it may yet grow into one.

s


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

First let me say that I have no stake in the farm or the importer's or exporter's business. I do however think that these farms are the only way we'll ever see these animals coming in the US outside of illegal smuggling. 

Let's do the math (leaving out the auratus factor for the moment). Let's say I start with just 10 pairs of pumilio and conservatively each pair produces 10 frogs per year. That's 100 frogs in the first year (with just 10 pairs). I'm guessing they started with quite a bit more than 20 WC frogs. From there it increases somewhat exponentially. Now they started this project 5 years ago. I believe in order to get the CITES permits they had to show at least second generation production. I don't think 1000+ frogs in a 2-3 year time frame is out of the question. Was every frog that has come in produced by this farm? No one but the exporter knows for sure but I don't see how it's so impossible.

As far as being naive, what other farm-raised reptiles/amphibians have been proven to be complete BS? I'll admit to being naive on this, I honestly don't know. Haven't they been doing this with Iguanas and Boa Constrictors for years? In the 10+ years I've been involved with darts I haven't heard of any other farms with darts. When histrionicus and pumilio were coming in at $30/ea. they weren't coming from farms, they were being pulled straight from the wild. Is this not a better option? Why is everyone so quick to assume this is all a complete front? Are there just tons of examples of this illicit farming going on? If we are all being naive, give us some examples why. I hope you don't take this as any kind of attack, I honestly want to know why there is this automatic assumption that farm-raised is all BS.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2004)

Well said Rob.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Farm Raised Pumilio*

I did not say this was all a complete front, I am sure there is production from these facilities that were pictured. My hope is that these farms are viable enough to continue production and satisfy all demand. But look at the facts, you mention boa and iguana farms, these facilities ship nothing but juveniles (usually hatchlings). If someone wants to maximize profit (which all business do) they will invest as little in a shipable product as they have to. As far as I know there have been few if any juvenile frogs in these shipments. Availability of different morphs, setting up and cultivating for 5 years would give ample opportunity to collect a variety of morphs, these people are savy enough to realize more variety equals greater demand (unless lowest cost collection dictates 2-3 morphs).
I am not the enemy here, I believe strongly that these animals should help support the local people/economy and would support any activity that would do so, Ranier Schultie's project in Peru is a perfect example of this. I hope Panama continues down this road and some of the rarer species become engaged in this project but to believe that all of these adult animals have been produced for export by these facilities just has too many contrary facts to support.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Farm Raised Pumilio*

One more thing, I agree Robb that without these activities the only access we would have to these animals is through illegal smuggling. It is not my attempt to have the exportations stopped or hindered in any way and perhaps a public forum was not the place to air my opinion however that is what this forum is for. Offering a different perspective does not make either of us right or wrong, undoubtedly we will never have all of the facts which is unfortunate. My hope is that through the sale of these animals facilities can be perpetuated and a viable and sustainable crop of dart frogs will incent these people to protect these valuable and unreplacable resources and habitats.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2004)

I have heard that the farm was ready to export in 2003, so what does that do for the numbers if they had to sit on the frogs another year, more adults more reproducing pairs. I have also be told that the orange basti pumilio greenhouse is so thick with them you can't walk in more than 3 feet. 

As for auratus numbers, just look at how many more auratus froglets you can get from one pair in a year, compared to one pair of pumilio.

Just my thoughts,


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I understand this part... but I'm thinking more in terms of space available.

I had done the "math" (like Robb did...) and came to the conclusion it *is* possible.

But when you keep Auratas in the same greenhouse (or are they in their own greenhouse?), I have problems with a greenhouse supporting the numbers of both of these frogs coming in.

If they're in separate greenhouses... it's possible. Then I question *why* are they doing Auratas?!?

s



Bgreen said:


> ... As for auratus numbers, just look at how many more auratus froglets you can get from one pair in a year, compared to one pair of pumilio.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2004)

Bgreen said:


> I have also be told that the orange basti pumilio greenhouse is so thick with them you can't walk in more than 3 feet.



So that ought to mean that prices will come down, right?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Scott - The auratus thing I've never really understood either. It's seems to be economically driven but if that's the case why not simply up the price of the pumilio? Oh, and I don't know if they are housed separately or not.

For arguments sake let's say theoretically that some number of WC animals have been included in the shipments. So what are we going to do, get all up in arms about it, notify CITES, get the place shut down? This is not directed specifically at you Mark, there are others that share your opinion, but I know you said that is not your intention. So what is the intent of trying to prove these animals are not farmed? What is the real intent of putting quotes around farm-raised whenever we speak about it? Are we that upset that we think we are being deceived? Would the hobby not support the farm because we think they are raping the rainforests? If these were being brought in as straight WC animals would we feel differently about the whole thing? Where was the concern when all the WC histrionicus and pumilio were brought in before? Are we concerned about the bigger picture of conservation? Is that the concern? If it is, realize that these farms may be the only place left for some pumilio once the Bocas Islands get developed. Lots starting as low as $50K. (Actually I don't really know the prices but you get my point) 

Well I think that's enough from me on this topic.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Before the first shippments (that actually got here) arrived I called Seaside and talked to Glen, (I was inquiring about blue jeans pum.) he mentioned the possibility of some different colors of auratus coming in also, Has anyone seen or heard of new (to the hobby) morphs of auratus coming in?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Farm Raised Pumilio*

The reason I made the points that I did was not to pass judgement one way or the other on what type of frogs we are getting from Panama. I certainly hope this activity continues, but I want people to be aware of the circumstances. By the looks of your Avatar you and many others remember the farm raised Histos and Tricolors of Ecuador from a few years ago, but my points were more to this end. After doing the importation of the mint Terribilis and numerous other species unavailable in the US in 96 I heard for more than 2 years what boobs I and all the other US hobbyists were considered from our friends across the pond. There was much conversation going on about how gullible we were in eating up as many overpriced Chytrid laden frogs that the European exporter could get his hands on. More than once did I hear "stupid Americans will buy anything at any price". So if I offended anyone in trying to offer a different perspective, I am sorry but the profile of the US dart frog hobbyist thanks to many of the new and very enthusiastic participants although not yet an equal to our European counterparts is not lagging far behind.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

First it is my hopes that no one is offended by either viewpoint. There is no need. I'm just trying to get some answers to why there is such a pessimistic view of this farm and the idea of farm-raised animals. I think you may have answered it. If I understand what you said it is basically because we were called boobs by the Europeans, ie. we are upset that we may be being deceived. As for my histos, I don't ever remeber them coming from a farm or facility that was attempting something like the current farm in Panama. When I bought them there was no indications of farm raising and it was understood they were straight up WC frogs, so I took the risks and precautions necessary. Maybe I just wasn't aware that some vendors made claims of being farm-raised which is entirely possible.

If "the Europeans" think I and others are boobs for buying these animals from a farm that appears to be producing animals that's fine with me. They can buy CB animals from me when Panama shuts down exports. Let's not mention the fact that these Europeans are probably the same ones who continue to smuggle from populations of frogs that are clearly severly threatened. And I'm sorry but you've got to be a little nutty to continue to try and smuggle frogs from Columbia. They've got balls, I'll give them that. No offense to European froggers, just the ones that called me a boob.

Bottom line for me is: WC or farm-raised the end result for the hobby and the wild populations is nearly the same. Animals are taken from the wild in order to produce cb animals for the hobby which hopefully reduces demand for more WC animals. In the case of farm-raised, however, they can probably produce a heck of a lot more animals than I can.

I thought I said that was enough from me....


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Farm Raised pumilio*

And this will be my last post on the subject. I made these points so that we may all realize that when $s are driving trade in animals we need to look beyond face value of what we are told.
On a side note Ecuador permitted Histos and Tricolor based on being farm raised, this operation was shut down when an investigation was done as to it's validity. All of the Histo's from Ecuador (including yours) were exported on this basis. This situation is not to be confused with what is going on in Panama now.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2004)

For the sake of the poor dead horse that keeps being beaten let's just enjoy the frogs and understand the following.
1. there is in fact a farm where these frogs are being bred.
2. this farm has been working with the government in order to be certified and get the permits to ship their frogs.
3. the farm has been in operation for a number of years and after all these years had produced enough frogs to supply a market that wants them.
4. we are getting frogs that a few years ago we dreamed about getting and could only get if they were smuggled.
5. Everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want, but all this sour grapes is ridiculous when you consider a) we are finally getting what we want in a legitimate manner and b) it's destined not to last forever.

If you don't want to accept the fact that these frogs were ranched your entitled but as far as the government of Panama, the government of the US, and CITES, they were, and should any of that change there will be no more fresh blood into our hobby.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2004)

:?: :!: :?: What do they feed those pumilio???


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

In other frog farm pictures I have seen, there is usually a large pile of fruit which is food for fruiflies to feedon, and the frogs eat them. Also, in a set up that large, with leaf litter there would be tons of springtails.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2004)

IMO, farm raising is great. If it can ba allowed for rarer frogs and stop or slow down smuggling, then so be it. I mean that article that someone posted a few weeks ago where smugglers were caught with 600+ frogs in film canisters was bad. More than half of those frogs were dead. If those were farm raised then maybe the smugglers wouldn't have been interested.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I wouldnt feel deceived or would I necisaraly want the operation to be shutdown if I were to find out that my frogs were indeed WC. But it is something I would like to know eiter way for many reasons. First off I think that it would be really somehtthing to get excited about if infact there really are farms operating so well that dont need to use them as a front and add WC frogs with shipments of farm raised frogs. So either way ist just somehting I would like to know one way or the other.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

The only problem I see with the frogs are the mislabeling of the morphs. Lots of people think that the brunos are really chiriqui grande due to their size, and if they are being collected, or the parents were collected there, almirante might really be man creek because it is close to chiriqui grande.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2004)

The biggest problem I can see with this is with the differnt morphs of frogs. The frog farm could have collected them from differnt parts and put them all in the same area and they have produces hybrids. I have no knowledge of how the are all setup so I cant say wether or not this is a fact. It is the same risk you take with buying any frog from anybody. Unless you yourself collected the frog you will never know exactley where they came from.

Mike P.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

When they originally collected the animals for this project, it is highly unlikely that they collected from several different locations for frogs that basically look the same. So all of the greens with or without spots are going to come from the same location. I doubt they are hybrids.


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

I would just like to know, so if a different morph comes in they are both labeled correctly and nobody will crossbreed them.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I have seen pics of wild Bastis for instance, with several different color morphs in the same vicinity, yet the frogs continue to breed within their morph (i assume). I would think that the same would hold true in the Farm Raised setting, that the adults would be selective enough to maintain their bloodline for the most part.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

> I have seen pics of wild Bastis for instance, with several different color morphs in the same vicinity, yet the frogs continue to breed within their morph (i assume).


I strongly suspect there is a fair amount of interbreeding between morphs (or at least gene flow) within this population and these morphs do not "breed true". The morphs of bastimentos are varied with every shade in between. There was a long thread on this a few months ago. I still maintain that a freely interbreeding population of frogs can exhibit multiple "morphs".


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2004)

Geeez enjoy this oportunity while it last ,, at least you folks in the USA are getting these awesome frogs while the rest of us abroad are still wishing like mad to just have oneeeee :?


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## Guest (Nov 24, 2004)

I just wanted to add my 2 cents in here. It would be stupid to belive that the farm would be able to keep track of all the starter wc frogs and not send some of these out in shipments, they do look pretty identical especially when they come from the same region, no that's not to stir anything up or to get them in trouble, it's just saying maybe both sides are right. 

And why can't we do frog farms like that here in colder climates, are we too lazy or cheap? You could theoretically set up a greenhouse to house something like that and breed any species or morph that you want. Just make sure you have heating for in the winter, and a back-up generator to protect your investment.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

True, it would be totally possible. If I had a greenhouse, i'd put some of my auratus in there and see what happens.
I can't imagine anyone having the funds to be able to risk stocking a green house with $100 dollar frogs the size of a nickel, with the possibility you just may never see them again!
(yes, call it cheap if you want!)
They can just catch as many wild high buck frogs as they can, put them in the green house, and if one gets out...how much are they really going to miss it?


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2004)

They take the same risk as everyone else, any escape is a loss of money. And look at the amount of money many people are willing to spend on herps, I mean come on 8000 for a designer ball python? You could get 80 frogs for that amount of money. All that really is is building a extra big viv for breeding, and you could safegaurd them from getting out by having 2 doors. Most of the expense I see with dart frogs is the enclosures, the frogs don't really cost all that much in general.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

amazinglyricist, I sent you a PM.

David



amazinglyricist said:


> They take the same risk as everyone else, any escape is a loss of money. And look at the amount of money many people are willing to spend on herps, I mean come on 8000 for a designer ball python? You could get 80 frogs for that amount of money. All that really is is building a extra big viv for breeding, and you could safegaurd them from getting out by having 2 doors. Most of the expense I see with dart frogs is the enclosures, the frogs don't really cost all that much in general.


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## Guest (Mar 11, 2005)

Well I wonder where those damaged frogs i saw came from then????????????????? :shock:


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*Panama Frog Farm...*

As someone who works in the area, I'm stoked yall are so concerned about pulling wild caught frogs from the forest. That said, I think that those of you who have serious interests in Dendrobatid conservation (particularly D.pumilio) should be paying attention to the situation in Bocas del Toro. All of the islands including Bastimentos and Popa, are rapidly being developed out of existance. All those fantastic color 'morphs' of D.pumilio, and the new species from Cristobal and Popa (name escapes me) are threatened. Panama is stable enough that a bunch of froggers together could buy a chunk of land and make a sizable difference for the critters they love so much. Dr. Kyle Summers and others who have worked on the frogs in the area would be a great starting point for finding out what localities to target.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Is bastimentos really that threatened? My understanding is that most of that island is a national reserve. 

But, I would say that Isla Colon will be the first to be gone. I was there almost 2 years ago, and I saw alot of development. Also, while on Isla Cristobal, I could hear chainsaws going the entire time we were there. I think Bastimentos Isle is the least threatened out of them. Oh, yeah, and also Isla Escuda. That place is so remote nobody will bother with it. (for now)


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

*Re: Panama Frog Farm...*

...


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*Bocas Frogs*

I respectfully disagree. I'm sure some of you are familiar with the term "paper park"? The entirety of the archipelago is rapidly being sold as vacation homes, including Bastimentos. My last visit was a month ago. Escudo de Veraguas is also threatened, but in that case by a resident population of fishermen who are clearing the island of forest cover. It is off the map for all but a few tourists, but of such biological wealth that it should be concern to all of us. Escudo has an endemic wren, hummingbird, salamander, and potentially- frogs. I stick with my original premise. Get together and buy land outright. The politicians are not very concerned with things like frogs. The are concerned with the money that even a hypothetical National park will bring from "Ecotourists."


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

*Re: Bocas Frogs*



Afemoralis said:


> I respectfully disagree. I'm sure some of you are familiar with the term "paper park"? The entirety of the archipelago is rapidly being sold as vacation homes, including Bastimentos. My last visit was a month ago. Escudo de Veraguas is also threatened, but in that case by a resident population of fishermen who are clearing the island of forest cover. It is off the map for all but a few tourists, but of such biological wealth that it should be concern to all of us. Escudo has an endemic wren, hummingbird, salamander, and potentially- frogs. I stick with my original premise. Get together and buy land outright. The politicians are not very concerned with things like frogs. The are concerned with the money that even a hypothetical National park will bring from "Ecotourists."


I'm a fan of buying land or conservation easements but there are some additional tools that could be available. If there are particular pieces of real-estate that have high conservation value, bringing them to the attention of the right conservation groups can be very effective. Sometimes that's all it takes to get the wheels turning on protecting a piece of land. A couple months ago I plopped down some wildlife corridor models in front of a land trust to indicate some important parcels they should consider and one of the most important pieces was not even on their radar screen. They were thrilled to have the information and now the area is being considered for action. It took less than 30 minutes of my time (not counting the time to build the models). The organization I work for has been very successful in Africa and Asia with putting teeth into those paper parks by supplying the guards and other personel needed to protect them. My point is that there are organizations that can tap resources that individuals can't who are very eager to protect as much as they can. Several of these organizations main purpose is to aquire properties or easement for conservation purposes.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

Thats one of the best ideas ive seen on this Board , to bad this wasnt posted after the original post rather then 5 pages later . :wink:


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

Just an FYI for everyone:

I'm currently working on converting DendroBoard.com into a 501(c)(3) non-profit org. Our overhead is currently relatively low and our sponsors are really stepping up with support. I think that this kind of conservation project would be a fantastic way to use our excess funds. Forming some sort of property trust would be fantastic way of ensuring the existence of this holding that would function independent of any one person.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

That sounds awsome would there be a way to donate also?


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying that we don't have to worry about Bastimentos, it just didn't seem very developed when I was there, other than Basti Town. I guess alot can happen in 2 years though. 

I would very much like to see a land trust project put together. I would get behind that 100%. I believe that in order to buy land in Panama though, you have to form a corporation. The Smithsonian might be able to help us out in that area. The Panamanian gov't also have some kind of "reforestation" project, but when I read more about it, it seemed more like a targeted reforestation, as in planting certain trees to be cut down again at a later date.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

I should have been clearer rompida, a 501(c)(3) is a corporation.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

hexen84 said:


> That sounds awsome would there be a way to donate also?


Sure. The trick is figuring out where and how to donate if you are interested in a specific area or problem. If you just donate to TNC, WCS, or one of the others in general, your donation is going to go into a general fund and likely not go specifically where you want it. So you want to either donate to a specific project within a large organization or find a smaller local land trust you can donate to and possibly influence where they target their efforts. Kyle Summers was mentioned as someone who knows the area. He likely also knows the conservation landscape in that area too so he might be a good resource. Ron Gaglliardo is another name that comes to mind as someone who could get you pointed in the right direction. Beyond that, Smithsonian was already mentioned. Their Center for Biotropical Research could probably get you pointed in the right direction and contacting TNC could also give you some leads. One small bit of advice on contacting large conservation groups though. Be a little sceptical if the person you talk to tries to convince you to donate to THEIR organization. That actually might be a smart way to go but ask a few questions about specific programs to make sure that what they are doing is the best fit for what you want your money to accomplish. For example, if someone approached me about donating for wolverine conservation, I would suggest they donate to a project within our organization but if they were interested in grizzlies, I would point them somewhere else. Someone that is more of a salesman within my organization might try to get a donation for us regardless of the project. Of course if you want your donation to be applied widely to conservation in general, donating to a reputable large organization is a great way to go. It's really no different than shopping for frogs. You do a little research about what you want, and then you shop around to see who can provide the best product.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2005)

Thanks for the advice bbrock. I like the idea of actually being able to tell where my money is going. I'll have to do some research on who's doing what I want, then give them the money.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

hexen84 said:


> Thanks for the advice bbrock. I like the idea of actually being able to tell where my money is going. I'll have to do some research on who's doing what I want, then give them the money.


Well, I'm sorry that I'm not more tied in with the conservation landscape of Panama because then I could give better recommendations. If you want to save the Yellowstone ecosystem though, give me a shout and I'll help you put your money to a good cause.


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## rompida (Mar 15, 2004)

hicksonj said:


> I should have been clearer rompida, a 501(c)(3) is a corporation.




Sorry, I should have been clearer also. I meant a "Panamanian Corporation".


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: Bocas Frogs*



Afemoralis said:


> The politicians are not very concerned with things like frogs. The are concerned with the money that even a hypothetical National park will bring from "Ecotourists."


What's wrong with this? There's quite a few people on this board who have been ecotourists, and many more that would love to go out and see darts in the wild. What do you think an ecotourist is?


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

*Ecotourist*

The issue with Ecotourism is not the tourists- it is the marketing machines/business people behind the scenes. My experiences in Latin America have led me to believe that there are very few resorts or programs that are truly ecologically responsible- more often it is just a catch phrase. In Bocas, resorts are cleared out of the rainforest- if they have no neighbors, or have been built within the National park; they are billed as "Ecotourist resorts"- regardless of the destruction of the forest or reef, the building materials, etc. In Belize entire Mangrove islands are clear-cut; sand is pumped in from the sea grass beds to provide sandy islands for "Ecotourists." 

I like the idea of environmentally responsible tourism, I just haven't seen it implemented very often. Be cautious in making your vacation decisions.


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