# Ohio Froggers Beware...



## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Had a conversation with a young man from Ohio about a few types of tincs he keeps together in one tank, and are actively breeding. 

He knows hybrids are frowned upon. 

He is potentially "in the market" to sell. 

I doubt he's moving a ton of frogs, but regardless.

Buyers in/around Ohio, beware.


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

This isn't too much help without a name.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

PDFanatic said:


> This isn't too much help without a name.


Sure it is. If he dropped a name it would be feedback on the open forum and they would remove the thread. If you are buying Tincs in Ohio, you can PM the OP and ask for more details.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

PDFanatic said:


> This isn't too much help without a name.


I don't think posting other peoples personally identifiable information is appropriate on a public website. 

I think all necessary information is present in ensuring regional froggers are using extra caution if purchasing from a new source. 

Thanks for your input.


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

Won't be purchasing any colbalts outa Columbus Ohio!


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks for the heads up Chris !


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

This information has also been posted on the Ohio Froggers group on Facebook.


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

Hello people of the forum, I am the person whom cml1287 mentioned in his post. To lay any of your fears to rest I am ABSOLUTELY NOT selling any of my frogs, nor have I ever sold any of them. My very oldest babies still have their tails and only recently had their front legs erupt. cml1287 jumped to conclusions without having gathered all of the information first. Any babies produced by my pure breed frogs (hybrid or otherwise) will be kept purely for my own enjoyment and not put into circulation so you don't need to worry about contaminated blood lines.

Thank you all.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Vash said:


> Hello people of the forum, I am the person whom Chris mentioned in his post. To lay any of your fears to rest I am ABSOLUTELY NOT selling any of my frogs, nor have I ever sold any of them. My very oldest babies still have their tails and only recently had their front legs erupt. Chris jumped to conclusions without having gathered all of the information first. Any babies produced by my pure breed frogs (hybrid or otherwise) will be kept purely for my own enjoyment and not put into circulation so you don't need to worry about contaminated blood lines.
> 
> Thank you all.


I appreciate your contribution.

With that being said, I asked you three questions.

1. Do these frogs live together?
(a photo of two tincs, a luec and an aurauts)

Answer: "they do, I know its sort of frowned upon in the breeding world because they make hybrids. But all the species do just fine together as they get plenty of food and there are tons of hiding places in the tank"

Yellow flag.

2. Are they breeding?

Answer: They are indeed. The first tadpoles are just now morphing into froglets so I'm not 100% sure who they came from. First indications of markings seem to be from the cobalts.

Red flag

3. Do you plan on selling them?

Answer: I have considered it.


I did not claim that you have sold them. In fact, it says above that you are "potentially in the market." My primary concern is unsuspecting folks in your area who you may or may be upfront about their lineage with. You can tell me you would never do that until you're blue in the face, but at the end of the day, I don't know the first thing about your character. Eventually, you're going to have more froglets than you know what to do with. Tincs breed like rabbits. 

I also don't think I unfairly jumped to conclusions. Before saying anything, I talked to a few very respected hobbyists, and they agreed with my conclusion.

I'm sure you can understand my, and others, concern when you _know_ how the hobby feels about hybridization and mixed species enclosures, yet you blatantly - and publicly - disregard it. It's a bit irresponsible, at the very least. Some people end up with hybrids because of an inexperienced or irresponsible owner before them. Others, like you, are actively pursuing the creation of hybrids.

With that being said, I'm glad that you've since clarified what you initially told me. I have no desire to continue to "bash" or tell you why you shouldn't be doing it, I think you already know it, and have since made up your mind. As long as you actually stick to your guns and don't release any of these frogs, no further action is required.


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

It would be irresponsible if I was trying to sell them, or if I was trying to pass them off as not being hybrids. The reason I was so "public" about it was for transparency, so that people would not worry about the possibility of getting tricked or lied to etc... Also when you asked if I had ever thought about selling them you forgot the part where I said "I had considered it, *BUT* figured no one would be interested *since they might be hybrids.*... i.e no I wasn't planning on selling them.

My intention here was/is not to attack you personally cml1287 I just wanted to set the record straight, and clarify any grey areas. I apologize for any upset caused to people.


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## Collin S (Jan 28, 2013)

vash, i have no problem with you making hybrids, it's your right too. if you do sell them just be truthful and sell them as hybrid or dont sell them at all.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I have seen the conversation that took place.

While I respect the fact that you decided to come on this thread & post. (Which is more than others have done, so I commend you).
I guess my biggest peeve in all of this is your irresponsibility.

There shouldve never been a situation for this to happen in the 1st place. 
You're the one who chose to keep a mixed tank & now you get to suffer the consequences of said actions.

Fair or not, that's just the nature of the beast.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Collin S said:


> vash, i have no problem with you making hybrids, it's your right too. if you do sell them just be truthful and sell them as hybrid or dont sell them at all.


I disagree.

Hybridization is NOT ok. 
And to accept anything less than zero tolerance is the same as giving your approval.

Just Bc he's being truthful, doesn't mean it makes it ok.


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

Collin, I have no intention to ever sell any of them, and the reason I have been so transparent and forward with the information in the first place was to show people that in the "one in a million" chance I did sell to someone I would be wholly truthful about their lineage as its publicly view-able through Instagram or here. However, I would be hesitant to sell any kind of hybrid to someone in the first place because I don't know what they would try to do with it/them. Also you're right, its completely my right to do with my frogs in my tanks as I please because they are just that... MINE. I am a private hobbyist who wanted to share pictures online with those who might be interested in looking at my personal collection. Again, I mean no offense to anyone, and came here to make sure people understood exactly what I was doing. I didn't want the reputation of any Central Ohio Breeders to be compromised as all of the ones I am familiar with are extremely good and reputable.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

Role playing this situation. Again, hypothetically.. Lets assume you are a very dishonest person. And stumble upon one of the many out there in the country.. Who like myself when I started was "Oooh thats a pretty blue frog" Now I have seen some stunning hybrids and if I didnt know better I would of gladly spent 20, 30, maybe 40 on some of them.. But lets face it, there are a lot of people coming into the hobby from just SEEING a frog they fell in love with. Without doing any of the homework. It would be easy to unload 2-3 frogs a time with new comers at 10-20 per head.. That's where character comes into play. 

Thus leading to a real question and not hypothetical.. As stated, they breed like rabbits. At some point you are going to be over run with tadpoles/froglets. What are YOU planning to do when this time comes? Mass execution or sell? That is where the irresponsibility comes into play. Had the proper precautions been taken.. A ton of frogs wouldn't have to be put down or potential buyers wouldn't end up with no named frogs. 

Sorry if this came off as rude.. but its a legitimate question and concern.


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

Don't worry you didn't sound rude. You make a really excellent point here Nismo.
First off, I wouldn't let it get to the point where I have too many frogs/tads/froglets. Given the amount of time metamorphosis takes I would be able to see that point coming and stop it.

Secondly I am not in the business of killing animals needlessly. I would either cull the eggs before they start to form tadpoles (less preferable option) 

Or I would simply separate my frogs at that point (more preferable option)

As for my character I know none of you know me and are skeptical of my word, and justly so. But again I reiterate, the whole purpose of me coming on here was to lay out my intentions and to show that I possess some measure of fortitude and appreciation for your concerns.

Best,
Vash


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

It is not OK in my book to mix frogs either. Many of us work extremely hard to keep pure morphs, locales, lineage and also keeping track of import dates and everything else.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Vash said:


> Collin, I have no intention to ever sell any of them, and the reason I have been so transparent and forward with the information in the first place was to show people that in the "one in a million" chance I did sell to someone I would be wholly truthful about their lineage as its publicly view-able through Instagram or here.


Vash,
thank you for participating in this conversation.
My issues and questions about the situation are as follows:

-Most dart frogs, if properly kept, will outlive their owner's interest in them. When you are tired of, or unable to continue the care of your adults and the froglets that you are pulling, can you depend on the next owner of these frogs to be as honest and forthcoming with their lineage?

-How many of the hybrid offspring to you intend to pull/raise, especially if you intent is NOT to sell/trade/disseminate them? Remember that adult frogs need lots more space and food than froglets.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

There is an old saying: "If you want to make something popular, ban it". Although there remains anonymity of a screen name on an internet forum, Vash has presented himself/herself for accountability. Further, he/she have given us the ability to offer wisdom. The unfortunate reality is, what has been accomplished here is to warn the next person to not speak up. Another opportunity to impart a thread of education, reasoning, and 'expertise' has been lost. Yet again, we have failed to encourage common beliefs, instead offering hostility. Some may call Vash ignorant. What would you call the belief that insults and negativity do anything to help a situation?


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Vash (he's a young man, as mentioned above) had the courage to come out. I just hope that, when he will have to manage too many frogs, he will not try to sell them under a different name to some noob. 
I also hope that he does not continue in this activity, hybridizing frogs.
We are all against hybridization, because it is not done in this hobby.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> Vash (he's a young man, as mentioned above) had the courage to come out. I just hope that, when he will have to manage too many frogs, he will not try to sell them under a different name to some noob.
> I also hope that he does not continue in this activity, hybridizing frogs.
> We are all against hybridization, because it is not done in this hobby.


Can we take the opportunity to give logical, fact based reasoning as to why? It IS done in this hobby, case in point. If our role is to impart the knowledge we so enthusiastically profess we should act as teachers, not critics.

EDIT: This is not directed towards those in this thread that have already attempted to do so.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It is true what you say, playing Devil's Advocate, if after so many posts and threads on this topic there are still those hybridizes frogs. But I can not answer your questions if do not claiming ethical reasons related to the preservation and purity of bloodlines. 
I leave to others more experienced than me and more fluent in English to argue the reasons for this.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> It is true what you say, playing Devil's Advocate, if after so many posts and threads on this topic there are still those hybridizes frogs. But I can not answer your questions if do not claiming ethical reasons related to the preservation and purity of bloodlines.
> I leave to others more experienced than me and more fluent in English to argue the reasons for this.



Who's ethics? I, too, am very much against hybridization but I must admit this is not reason enough for people to listen. Hybridization is not wrong, it is unnatural. I, for one, strive to replicate nature, not supercede it. I began working with herps because I admired what nature has provided. My admiration grew to the point I wanted to observe it closer to home. It has taken nature many times our age over to produce these wonders. Who am I to think I can improve upon it? Rhetoric aside, Nature does not need our validation for, or against. People must ask themselves: Why do I do the things I do? I ask Vash. Why do you feel the need to keep mixed species? Why did you become interested in dart frogs in the first place? If, like me, you were inspired by nature. What is your reasoning for deciding that "natural" isn't enough? Is it possible you did this out of false intentions, your true desire being to keep as many as you can with the materials you had on hand? If so, what are you going to do with your new found knowledge? If not, WHY then? What gives you the right to say nature needs, or even has room for, improvement?


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

I have worked with dart frogs for nearly 7 years now, managing their population won't be a problem for me because I know exactly how much time, maintenance, and resources goes into various sized populations. So for those of you who are so sure it will get out of hand, I assure you that that will not be the case. My interest in frogs has been going on since I was 14, fast-forward 7 years, I still love dart frogs and will continue to do so for a very long time. 

I understand your concerns about hybridization and again, as so many of you don't seem to understand despite my assertions, any hybrids that are produced will stay with me to protect all of YOU... I'm done with hypothetical situations and speculation. As aspidites73 mentioned, if you would like to try and factually change my mind, feel free to do so.

Best,
Vash


EDIT: (@ aspidities) I became interested in dart frogs by exposure, a student gave one to my Dad as a gift (it was an Azureus) and I thought it was the coolest thing ever. It isn't that I feel the NEED to keep a mixed vivarium but rather I like the look of these beautiful frogs coexisting side by side, contrasting one another. 

I am not so pompous as to think I could improve on something nature has already done so well, a hybrid (IMO) is not "better" in any way than a pure breed, merely different. I like things that are different. However difference for the sake of difference is not the right reason to BE different. There is also (to me) a measure of pride and thrill of discovery to see what nature can make under conditions I create. To you that may be ethically wrong, but to me it is not since I am doing it in such a fashion as to isolate them from harming any of your bloodlines.

Also my intention was not to have as many as possible with the materials at hand. I have plenty of glass tanks and material for building them into habitats, I chose to keep them mixed for the reasons stated above. As it is, I will soon need to divide them up anyway because they are reaching full size and getting a little crowded.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> Hybridization is not wrong, it is unnatural.


...?

There are several occurrences of hybrids in nature. 

Ironic, providing evidence for hybridization occurrence in nature while simultaneously battling it in the hobby.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tincs can live a long time. I mean a really long time. A well cared for Tinc might live more than 20 years. The creation of a hybrid is not something that should be entered into lightly. Most people will not cull a frog. They believe it too cruel to do. If and when they are done with the frog, they may have the best of intentions when they try to find a new owner. Whatever on earth keeps the new owner from passing them on, back into the hobby, when they are bored of them?

In my book, the creator of the frog is forever responsible for them. 
Whoever decides to create a hybrid should be able to commit to caring for them for 20 plus years. Lot's of people fully believe that they are capable of making that commitment. Life often has different plans for people. 

The possibility of "polluted" blood getting back into the hobby is very real. This is a concern that I know many share. This is why so many of us are dead set against crossbreeds.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

cml1287 said:


> ...?
> 
> There are several occurrences of hybrids in nature.


Good point! Suffice it to say: Nature will do as nature has done. If our reason for keeping these animals is an appreciation of nature, our decision to hybridize becomes un-natural, self serving, and irresponsible.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Vash said:


> As aspidites73 mentioned, if you would like to try and factually change my mind, feel free to do so.
> 
> Best,
> Vash


Vash, What facts are you missing? You admit knowing it is frowned upon, but give no reason as to why you would fly in the face of the accepted norm despite claiming a common love of the animals. If you began interest in nature, and because of nature, why do you feel the need to avoid nature?


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> If our reason for keeping these animals is an appreciation of nature, our decision to hybridize becomes un-natural, self serving, and irresponsible.


yes. 100% agree.


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Vash, What facts are you missing? You admit knowing it is frowned upon, but give no reason as to why you would fly in the face of the accepted norm despite claiming a common love of the animals. If you began interest in nature, and because of nature, why do you feel the need to avoid nature?


Fact: you and many others believe it is wrong to hybridize

BELIEF: It is wrong to hybridize. not fact. 

Fact: Because it is the accepted norm does not mean I am forced to follow.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> The possibility of "polluted" blood getting back into the hobby is very real. This is a concern that I know many share. This is why so many of us are dead set against crossbreeds.


Agreed! If I were to profess a love for birds, then go on to state a goal of making a amphibious, viviparous, and flightless version of a bird people would be very quick to point out the fallacy of thinking that I am, in fact, creating a bird. Why then is it so difficult for Vash to understand he is supporting the aforementioned (lack of) logic?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Vash said:


> I have worked with dart frogs for nearly 7 years now, managing their population won't be a problem for me because I know exactly how much time, maintenance, and resources goes into various sized populations. So for those of you who are so sure it will get out of hand, I assure you that that will not be the case. My interest in frogs has been going on since I was 14, fast-forward 7 years, I still love dart frogs and will continue to do so for a very long time.
> 
> I understand your concerns about hybridization and again, as so many of you don't seem to understand despite my assertions, any hybrids that are produced will stay with me to protect all of YOU... I'm done with hypothetical situations and speculation. As aspidites73 mentioned, if you would like to try and factually change my mind, feel free to do so.
> 
> ...


A little grandiose, no?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Vash said:


> Fact: you and many others believe it is wrong to hybridize
> 
> BELIEF: It is wrong to hybridize. not fact.
> 
> Fact: Because it is the accepted norm does not mean I am forced to follow.


Vash, I already stated that Hybridization is NOT wrong. Captive hybridization is, simply put, not natural. If you profess a love for nature, yet embrace the un-natural, how could you expect anything other than ridicule?


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> A little grandiose, no?


Despite the irrelevancy of your comment, you have become trapped in the same pitfall as many others simply telling me that I'm wrong because you believe otherwise, not necessarily giving me concrete evidence.

EDIT: No you may not have used the word "wrong" but your belief that it is, is very clear. "I, too, am very much against hybridization"


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Vash said:


> Despite the irrelevancy of your comment, you have become trapped in the same pitfall as many others simply telling me that I'm wrong because you believe otherwise, not necessarily giving me concrete evidence.


Please see post #33, above

I do not ask that you agree with, or even listen to my beliefs. I only ask why you seem contradictory? You thought the animals were "amazing". That is to say: nature did an amazing job. You continuing the line of thinking into "i like how [un-natural] looks" disagrees with your own logic.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Vash said:


> Despite the irrelevancy of your comment, you have become trapped in the same pitfall as many others simply telling me that I'm wrong because you believe otherwise, not necessarily giving me concrete evidence.
> 
> EDIT: No you may not have used the word "wrong" but your belief that it is, is very clear. "I, too, am very much against hybridization"


Please stop quoting portions of my words to serve your agenda. In the very next sentence I admit that my beliefs are not reason enough to do anything


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## Vash (Apr 26, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Please see post #33, above
> 
> I do not ask that you agree with, or even listen to my beliefs. I only ask why you seem contradictory? You thought the animals were "amazing". That is to say: nature did an amazing job. You continuing the line of thinking into "i like how [un-natural] looks" disagrees with your own logic.


It isn't necessarily unnatural though. As your/our colleague stated above, there are instances of hybridization in nature. Plus the whole mechanism of genetic mixing is a natural process. Its even how evolution happens in some cases. That isn't to say however, that I'm trying to evolve nature but merely to suggest that what I am doing isn't so unnatural after all.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Vash said:


> It isn't necessarily unnatural though. As your/our colleague stated above, there are instances of hybridization in nature. Plus the whole mechanism of genetic mixing is a natural process. Its even how evolution happens in some cases. That isn't to say however, that I'm trying to evolve nature but merely to suggest that what I am doing isn't so unnatural after all.


Natural hybridization is, by definition, Natural. Your doing it in captivity, by definition, IS un-natural.

Further, I am finished participating in your circular arguments of fallacy. Re-read your own posts and you will see that you contradict your own stance on why nature is so beautiful.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cml1287 said:


> ...?
> 
> There are several occurrences of hybrids in nature.
> 
> Ironic, providing evidence for hybridization occurrence in nature while simultaneously battling it in the hobby.



And the issue of outbreeding depression in both captive and wild population is well known. This is also before we consider the more abstract issues of increasing demand for wild caught animals.. 

I'm always surprised that given the number of times I've posted the information on outbreeding depression and the risks to populations it never gets posted until I enter the conversation..... 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/85739-outbreeding-depression.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/95696-lines.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/71854-pros-inbreeding.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/82815-so-why-does-everyone-hate-hybrids.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...ght-vs-captive-bred-conservation-efforts.html 


some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

*** REMINDER **

Personal insults/attacks are not allowed. It is clearly stated in the user agreement. Please read that over and conduct yourselves appropriately. Next time someone takes this to a personal level they are getting time off. 


Thank you for your cooperation.
*


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Tincs can live a long time. I mean a really long time. A well cared for Tinc might live more than 20 years. The creation of a hybrid is not something that should be entered into lightly. Most people will not cull a frog. They believe it too cruel to do. If and when they are done with the frog, they may have the best of intentions when they try to find a new owner. Whatever on earth keeps the new owner from passing them on, back into the hobby, when they are bored of them?
> 
> In my book, the creator of the frog is forever responsible for them.
> Whoever decides to create a hybrid should be able to commit to caring for them for 20 plus years. Lot's of people fully believe that they are capable of making that commitment. Life often has different plans for people.
> ...


Ok, now to take off my Mod hat for a second... I just want to point out that THIS here is one of the biggest reasons why I am vehemently against hybridization. Life happens, things change... we see it all the time here. Sometimes things come up and you have to sell all your frogs. At that point you are passing the responsibility on to someone else and none of us know what their intentions/goals/understanding of the situation will be.

The best thing I can relate this to is someone refusing to vaccinate their kids. It is incredibly short-sighted and usually very selfish because it does not take into account the greater effect it could have on other people (or in this case, the hobby).

So, please be mindful that while I do agree that you are free to do whatever you want... I also think that you should consider the effects on the rest of the hobby and not just your own collection/enjoyment... and understand that what you are doing is not some trivial undertaking. It has real the potential to have real consequences for others.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> Ok, now to take off my Mod hat for a second... I just want to point out that THIS here is one of the biggest reasons why I am vehemently against hybridization. Life happens, things change... we see it all the time here. Sometimes things come up and you have to sell all your frogs. At that point you are passing the responsibility on to someone else and none of us know what their intentions/goals/understanding of the situation will be.
> 
> The best thing I can relate this to is someone refusing to vaccinate their kids. It is incredibly short-sighted and usually very selfish because it does not take into account the greater effect it could have on other people (or in this case, the hobby).
> 
> So, please be mindful that while I do agree that you are free to do whatever you want... I also think that you should consider the effects on the rest of the hobby and not just your own collection/enjoyment... and understand that what you are doing is not some trivial undertaking. It has real the potential to have real consequences for others.


Every argument that has ever arisen by those that want to hybridize is from the point of view of selfishness.

It's not about what the hobby wants or whats right by anyone else...Its about "me" and what "I" want.

When its coming from that point of view there is really nothing anyone or any bit of scientific fact that will change their mind.

The arguments you have read in the last few pages is exactly the same as those before....almost verbatim...

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

rigel10 said:


> Vash (he's a young man, as mentioned above) had the courage to come out. I just hope that, when he will have to manage too many frogs, he will not try to sell them under a different name to some noob.
> I also hope that he does not continue in this activity, hybridizing frogs.
> We are all against hybridization, because it is not done in this hobby.


I find it funny you feel that you speak for the whole hobby. I have been part of this hobby for nearly 20 years and I can say with great clarity that not everyone is against hybrids. I have my own. I have seen hybrids in private collections. I have received several hybrids from private collections and friends. Vash, what you will find is most others with hybrids(and I'm not saying there are a thousand of us) simply have decided just to enjoy their frogs and avoid the forums. Best advice I can give to you is to stop trying to explain yourself and just enjoy our frogs. If or when the time comes just be truthful with your frogs and they will find good homes.


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## sleijd (Apr 13, 2012)

I have seen so many lives change and so many frogs sold due to those changes.

arrogance I feel in this one. and stubborness. 

we in europe try to get the blood of our frogs less thin by buying partners of the same species from other breeders in other countries and thus maintain a healthy line. by introducing hybrids this would be futile. 

naturally hybridisation occurs on the borders of a population in the wild, but there is also a reason that a certain quality has remained strong within said population (not only the colour that most hobbyist enjoy). without the wild to take care of the specimen with no good qualities, a bad hybrid will still thrive in captivity.

In this community hybridisation is bad and you are not only frown upon but frankly held in very low esteem. Discussion is good, but I for one, am glad not beeing an ohio frogger. such shame I would feel.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

sleijd said:


> Discussion is good, but I for one, am glad not beeing an ohio frogger. such shame I would feel.


I don't think this individual's actions should have any negative consequences for anyone in the area. There are a few very respected hobbyists in that area, none of which i would consider "at fault" or "responsible" for the situation at hand.


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## nate_88 (Dec 3, 2013)

I agree about the ohio frogger statement not being able to be said about the rest of us in ohio cause one person is doing something that is not right can't blame everyone in that state

~N8


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## PDFanatic (Mar 3, 2007)

Nate is an example of a great frogger from Ohio! He has a great variety of frogs and works hard to keep his seperate and has a lot of passion for the hobby. He is a good guy!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cml1287 said:


> I don't think this individual's actions should have any negative consequences for anyone in the area. There are a few very respected hobbyists in that area, none of which i would consider "at fault" or "responsible" for the situation at hand.



Easy, I think your being a little too sensitive in response to a person for whom English isn't their first language. I don't think he was casting stones at all frog keepers in Ohio. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think it's time to let the dust settle as the OP is no longer responding to the thread but it's clear he's still reading it. There isn't any need to keep the show until he responds again (if he responds again). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I think his statement might be being taken out of context.
I don't think he was referencing all Ohio Froggers ... just this particular person.
I think some of the meaning is being lost in translation due to the broken english.

I, for one, took no offense ... and I am in Ohio.
(And an Admin for the Ohio Froggers group).

*Edit ... Sorry Ed. Was typing this when you posted the same response*


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Jellyman said:


> I find it funny you feel that you speak for the whole hobby. I have been part of this hobby for nearly 20 years and I can say with great clarity that not everyone is against hybrids. I have my own. I have seen hybrids in private collections. I have received several hybrids from private collections and friends. Vash, what you will find is most others with hybrids(and I'm not saying there are a thousand of us) simply have decided just to enjoy their frogs and avoid the forums. Best advice I can give to you is to stop trying to explain yourself and just enjoy our frogs. If or when the time comes just be truthful with your frogs and they will find good homes.


Without controversy (I do not like to make controversy) but you could post me a thread here on this forum that - in the last 3 years, not 20 years - is in favor of the hybridization! 
This is not the first time that we talk about this topic! Do not we have blamed Dillon (Safedartfrogs) for this reason? Or do not I remember it correctly? 
When I said "we are all against hybridization", I am referring to all of these threads against hybridization and to their content. I absolutely do not want to speak for the whole hobby (let alone, I do not even do it properly in English!). For this "errata corrige": *I am against hybridization*. 
As regards for the "ethical reasons" I cited above, these reasons seems to me more than enough! Ethics and science do not always get along! But I think Pumilo and others above have been more eloquent on the pratical. 
So: over and out.


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## sleijd (Apr 13, 2012)

Actually my english is quite excellent.  I was just feeling poetic (and conducting an interesting experience at the same time), did you notice it took just this much to have people jump on me instead of that other guy, it really says something about the atmosphere here eh?

And to make myself clear, no. I do not condemn other frogkeepers in that most beautiful state of the grandest of Americas. I do condemn hybridization though.

But I would certainly feel ashamed if some finnish dude would keep interbreedable species together. Didn't mean to hit a nerve but apparently I did. So sorry about that folks. 

Now I think I can remain silent for a few years on this forum again 

psst. thanks for standing up for me Nick  I'll out Ameerega you yet.


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

sleijd said:


> Actually my english is quite excellent.  I was just feeling poetic (and conducting an interesting experience at the same time), did you notice it took just this much to have people jump on me instead of that other guy, it really says something about the atmosphere here eh?
> 
> But I would certainly feel ashamed if some finnish dude would keep interbreedable species together. Didn't mean to hit a nerve but apparently I did. So sorry about that folks.


No need to be sorry, I don't think you struck any nerves. If my post came off rude, I didn't mean for it to be. 

text can be a rather impersonal form of communication.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Vash said:


> It isn't necessarily unnatural though. As your/our colleague stated above, there are instances of hybridization in nature. Plus the whole mechanism of genetic mixing is a natural process. Its even how evolution happens in some cases. That isn't to say however, that I'm trying to evolve nature but merely to suggest that what I am doing isn't so unnatural after all.


Problem is the hybrids that happen in nature are between populations that are connected. When people do it in captivity they tend to mix things that aren't even near eachother. I've seen leuc X auratus hybrids, and that's extremely unnatural, they don't exist anywhere near eachother.

I applaud cash for being straightforward about it, although I do find it weird that he's been doing this for 7 years but doesn't know the facts about why hybrids can be wrong. I.e. Outbreeding depression, putting pressure on wild populations so we can receive pure blood, and even pure lines falling out of the hobby. Either way the main point of the thread should still be keep a eye out in ohio, whether he's genuine or not.


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## sleijd (Apr 13, 2012)

heheh ... yeah, well. hanging out on japanese and russian forums leaves me talking like Yoda so I suppose I am responsible too. Someday I hope to learn not to abuse other peoples languages. 

any a way. 

better to have someone else speak for me 

The Offspring - Keep Em Separated [New Video + Lyrics] - YouTube


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

sleijd said:


> psst. thanks for standing up for me Nick  I'll out Ameerega you yet.


Ha Ha. 
I accept your challenge Mats! ;-)

PS. Yes, your English is actually pretty good. Except when you're posting in your native tongue on FB. That stuff I definitely don't understand.


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## sleijd (Apr 13, 2012)

... I find any tongue to be good, but now I will probably be deleted for beeing OT. 

oh well. could be worse, could be snowing.


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## Punjab (Apr 30, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Natural hybridization is, by definition, Natural. Your doing it in captivity, by definition, IS un-natural...


Using this logic, absolutely every animal you've ever kept, pure bred, wild, or domestic is by definition un-natural. Every frog you've ever bred has been bred un-naturally and therefore negates your entire argument that captive hybridization is somehow _less_ than captive breeding of pure lineages. They're the same.
From an evolutionary standpoint this entire argument is moot. Nature creates hybrids every day and none of your domesticated frogs will ever accidentally find their way back to the jungles to spoil nature anyway.
So the only real reason for having this argument or for being against captive hybridization is because individuals that strive to keep only direct bloodline descendants are afraid of having their own stock tainted by a hybrid. 
Fair enough, but end your argument there because regardless of which kind of frogs you have neither choice is benefiting or negatively impacting the natural order. Rather, only you and the viv's inhabitants.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Punjab said:


> Using this logic, absolutely every animal you've ever kept, pure bred, wild, or domestic is by definition un-natural. Every frog you've ever bred has been bred un-naturally and therefore negates your entire argument that captive hybridization is somehow _less_ than captive breeding of pure lineages. They're the same.
> From an evolutionary standpoint this entire argument is moot. Nature creates hybrids every day and none of your domesticated frogs will ever accidentally find their way back to the jungles to spoil nature anyway.
> So the only real reason for having this argument or for being against captive hybridization is because individuals that strive to keep only direct bloodline descendants are afraid of having their own stock tainted by a hybrid.
> Fair enough, but end your argument there because regardless of which kind of frogs you have neither choice is benefiting or negatively impacting the natural order. Rather, only you and the viv's inhabitants.


This hobby is all about keeping the lines pure as much as possible to their wild counterparts.
We see WC as a snapshot of that area at the point in time of collection due to the rapid change in the rainforest DAILY.

These animals could hypothetically potentially go the way of the dodo bird & people want to destroy that for their own curiosity? 

Or to destroy everything this hobby has stood for well before I was here & definitely longer than you considering your 1st post was to immediately post an argument here? 

Pardon me if I don't smell a troll here.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

You are missing the point, entirely. I don't care how un-natural it may be keeping frogs in captivity. The point is, as Gamble pointed out and this entire thread argues, we do not appreciate hybrids. We prefer keeping the wild type as close as possible to just that. An appeal to the evolutionary argument is pointless here. We are not discussing evolution, except maybe to say: we breed true out of respect for what evolution has done, not in spite of it. Barah baje, sir!



Punjab said:


> Using this logic, absolutely every animal you've ever kept, pure bred, wild, or domestic is by definition un-natural. Every frog you've ever bred has been bred un-naturally and therefore negates your entire argument that captive hybridization is somehow _less_ than captive breeding of pure lineages. They're the same.
> From an evolutionary standpoint this entire argument is moot. Nature creates hybrids every day and none of your domesticated frogs will ever accidentally find their way back to the jungles to spoil nature anyway.
> So the only real reason for having this argument or for being against captive hybridization is because individuals that strive to keep only direct bloodline descendants are afraid of having their own stock tainted by a hybrid.
> Fair enough, but end your argument there because regardless of which kind of frogs you have neither choice is benefiting or negatively impacting the natural order. Rather, only you and the viv's inhabitants.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Dead horse= beaten

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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