# hybrid question



## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Before I ask my question, this is not in reference to mixing, or multi-species tanks, or ethics, or evolution. So, please keep those comments to yourself.

With that said, here is my question.

With the recent thread to adopt some homeless frogs, there was a huge arguement about hybrids, And I fail to see why these frogs are labeled as Hybrids. 

Why are these frogs called hybrids? I ask, because that seems to be the consences. 

A yellow Auratus is a hybrid. It is a vivarium bred cross between a Leuc and an Auratus. The offspring of two different species of frogs. 

I don't see why the offspring of two color morphs of the same species is referred to as a hybrid?
I agree the blood line is not pure, but a Tinc is still a Tinc. 

I am not suggesting that crossing area specific color morphs with each other is ok or should be done ( I personally think the fancy geckos and snakes look fake, and look out of place in a natural vivarium) I am just asking why they are labeled Hybrids, because I don't see them that way.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

I am not sure which thread you are referring to just because I haven't been on in a few days. But I will try to explain this.

When looking at a species like Tinc's, you are also looking at morphological differences stipulated by various boundaries, environmental conditions, and other various aspects that have given them different looks, calls, and ability to adapt.

The reason that most don't like to mix is because of various reasons (This is not all of them just a few):

1) Don't wish to create hybrids due not being able to distinguish between a true line and mixed line.
2) Introduce pathogens to our frogs like Chytrid, parasites, and other ones that say a Azureus has adapted to, to survive in its given locations.
3)Because we don't want it to be come as money hungry and destroyed as the reptile industry.

So that is the stance that most hobbyist take. Tinc's are not just Tinc's but rather morphological Tinc's to be honest.

We could label them as monsters, beasts, adapted changes, etc. but hybrids are in reference to two different items being cross bred to create a new item. This is how it is in ALL situations. When you cross breed two different species of GTP you still get a hybrid however in that species the concesus within the hobbyist is to allow it. In this hobby it is not accepted.

Hopefully that answers all the questions, if not please feel free to ask more. I will do my best to answer in a timely manner because of school it makes it difficult to check.


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## bshmerlie (Jun 2, 2010)

People that are passionate about dart frogs are just trying to keep the lines pure. With a lot of frogs often it is just the color pattern or markings on the frog that allows us to tell which line they're from. If you start mixing the different lines it becomes muddy and unclear which one is which. And them some may think its a whole new line. The more frogs that are mixed and put out into the hobby the more likely we are to lose some of the original color morphs. With so many different colors and patterns in darts there's no reason to muddy the waters. When you see a labrador/ german shepherd mix you can tell ...there is no confusion....but tincs mixed you may not be able to tell. Then you have mutt frogs. We just want to keep them pure is all. When you find a group like this its best to pull them out of the hobby then risk someone breeding them again and having another generation out there which could go into unknowing hands.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

I'm no dart frog expert, but here's my 2 cents. 

People would prefer not to mix two color morphs from the same species because people are trying to keep the frogs that enter into the pet trade as accurate to wild populations as possible. These color morphs represent distinct populations within the same species that have evolved slightly different due to genetic and geographical isolation, meaning they don't breed together in the wild.

You're correct in saying that two tinc morphs breeding will still make a tinc, but it is a tinc not found in the wild and therefore is classified in the hobby as a hybrid. I'm guessing there are quite a few peer-reviewed papers that attempt to study these differences, like this one: 
Non-gradual variation in colour morphs of the stra... [Mol Ecol. 2007] - PubMed result

Like Venom said, it looks like many in this hobby don't want dart frogs to end up as the next ball python, where new crosses are literally being hatched out every day, and the beauty of a natural pattern is basically lost from the pet community.

Here's a quick search in google scholar http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...ndrobates&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Apparently, no one read my post....

I plainly stated this wasn't about mixing or cross breeding........


My curiousity is to the label of Hybrid itself. Only that and that alone. 

Why is a mutt a hybrid? The term Hybrid usually implies desirable traits not naturally found in the parents genes.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Scott Richardson said:


> Apparently, no one read my post....
> 
> I plainly stated this wasn't about mixing or cross breeding........
> 
> ...


Yes I did read your post.



freaky_tah said:


> You're correct in saying that two tinc morphs breeding will still make a tinc, but it is a tinc not found in the wild and therefore is classified in the hobby as a hybrid.


And there's your answer then, if that's all you were looking for. Hybrids can also occur between different populations of the same species.

Here's the definition from wikipedia after a quick search:

The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding, where hybrids are commonly produced and selected because they have desirable characteristics not found or inconsistently present in the parent individuals or populations. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization.

That answer it for ya?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

not really, but thank you. 

See, like it says in the definition "desireable characteristics" is why I don't see why the use of the word. 

Does that make sense? 

Hybrid=Good......Crossbreeding Frogs=Bad

It's the word that bothers me.


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

Scott R.
I agree 100 percent with your thought process. While I was in college we were always taught that a true hybrid was a cross between 2 different distinct species. Not between 2 different color morphs of the same species. But like others on here have correctly stated, it comes down to what definition you choose to use. I totally agree with others on this board that it is important to not let PDF's fall into the same mess that a lot of other herps have fallen into with selective breeding to create crazy color morphs. 

Jim G.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Well see now that's the problem with wikipedia, you chose the one sentence in their definition that give an example. If you read the rest that they provided: The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between *populations*, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This flow of genetic material *between populations* or races is often called hybridization.

If your problem lies in the term "hybrid" I don't see how you're going to get an answer that satisfies your problem with the term. You may not see it as a hybrid but, by definition, it is. We did discuss this in multiple bio classes while I was in college as well.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

We are on the same page. I completely support keeping blood lines pure. 

My problem is the word Hybrid makes it sound cool. And while the vast majority of the people here wouldn't buy them, others will. And a new person that sees the word Hybrid could go a different direction.

I am not an advocate of telling new people to the hobby it is ok to mix. My problem with the latest heated debate was the title " How can we convince people........" I read that as " How can we force people to do what we want" 

But let's not go down that road again.


I just don't like the word Hybrid and the glorification that comes with it the majority of the time. Yes, here it is bad, but this site is not the world as a whole. And the word itself seems to me like it could have the opposite affect. 

That make sense at all?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

freaky_tah said:


> Well see now that's the problem with wikipedia, you chose the one sentence in their definition that give an example. If you read the rest that they provided: The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between *populations*, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This flow of genetic material *between populations* or races is often called hybridization.
> 
> If your problem lies in the term "hybrid" I don't see how you're going to get an answer that satisfies your problem with the term. You may not see it as a hybrid but, by definition, it is. We did discuss this in multiple bio classes while I was in college as well.


 
The use of the phrase of hybrid/hybridization is more common in today's parlance than it was historically. The term that was used to cover within species crosses between different populations was crossbreeding and there are discussions on crossbred vigor and outcrossing depression (so the argument on whether or not it is desirable even in wild populations should be considered suspect). There have been several discussions on the board about the use of hybrid to describe crosses between two populations of the same species. 

The term has historically been consistentliy used to describe crosses of different populations of plants.. The increase in usage may be more from the lack of good alternative options in the language and an increase in research usages.


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Scott Richardson said:


> We are on the same page. I completely support keeping blood lines pure.
> 
> My problem is the word Hybrid makes it sound cool. And while the vast majority of the people here wouldn't buy them, others will. And a new person that sees the word Hybrid could go a different direction.
> 
> ...


So I think I'm understanding what you're saying here now, that the term hybrid is seen by the general public as a positive term, something to be sought out? I guess in my past I personally have never attached any positive or negative traits to the word so I was missing that. It is just another biological process to me. I work in the natural resource sciences, and most of the hybrids that I come across on a daily basis are not desirable (but those are species crosses) so I guess on a day-to-day basis I see more negatives than positives. If I was in agriculture though I'm guessing I would see more positive hybrids than negative.

I thought your original question pertained to why we use the term hybrid when dealing with the same species, so that's why I went that route in answering


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

Yet another good point Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

freaky_tah said:


> So I think I'm understanding what you're saying here now, that the term hybrid is seen by the general public as a positive term, something to be sought out? I guess in my past I personally have never attached any positive or negative traits to the word so I was missing that. It is just another biological process to me. I work in the natural resource sciences, and most of the hybrids that I come across on a daily basis are not desirable (but those are species crosses) so I guess on a day-to-day basis I see more negatives than positives. If I was in agriculture though I'm guessing I would see more positive hybrids than negative.
> 
> I thought your original question pertained to why we use the term hybrid when dealing with the same species, so that's why I went that route in answering


This paper reviews the issues fairly well of inbreeding and outbreeding.... 

http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/creel/bio480/edmands 2007.pdf

Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Yes, that is were I am coming from. Hybrids in agriculture for example yield more bushels per acre and are drought tolerant and diesease resistant. Good things. 

Like Ed said, we use the word more often today, but I don't know that we always use it appropriately. 

And that is what my original question was.......Why not use a alternative adjective.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> Yes, that is were I am coming from. Hybrids in agriculture for example yield more bushels per acre and are drought tolerant and diesease resistant. Good things.
> 
> Like Ed said, we use the word more often today, but I don't know that we always use it appropriately.
> 
> And that is what my original question was.......Why not use a alternative adjective.


It's funny that agriculture has a positive spin even though there were probably hundreds if not thousands of unsuccessful crosses before a desirable product was created.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> It's funny that agriculture has a positive spin even though there were probably hundreds if not thousands of unsuccessful crosses before a desirable product was created.


It's interesting that you put a positive spin on frog hybrids, considering your statement above.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

edwardsatc said:


> It's interesting that you put a positive spin on frog hybrids, considering your statement above.


And what spin would that be?


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

Scott Richardson said:


> Yes, that is were I am coming from. Hybrids in agriculture for example yield more bushels per acre and are drought tolerant and diesease resistant. Good things.
> 
> Like Ed said, we use the word more often today, but I don't know that we always use it appropriately.
> 
> And that is what my original question was.......Why not use a alternative adjective.


I see your point. Someone from the snake hobby would be more excited to buy a hybrid frog just getting into it as they see that as a positive thing.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I've been around the community long enough that I forgot that "hybrid" isn't technically a dirty word and the word itself can carry a positive connotation in some situations. I guess I see your point.

In the situation you mentioned, I think "intergrade" is a more accurate term. People just apply the term "hybrid" as a conversational short-hand.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> It's funny that agriculture has a positive spin even though there were probably hundreds if not thousands of unsuccessful crosses before a desirable product was created.


 
Actually this ignores all of the failed attempts in agriculture with respect to cross breeding.. as well as all of the problems with crossbreeding in different populations of anurans.. see for example SpringerLink - Conservation Genetics, Volume 6, Number 2 


With respect to domestic crops (animal or otherwise), people have to keep in mind that crosses are tested in the field and are rated on thier production... some of those productions do not meet the criteria and are discarded.

To keep this ontopic... there are words that are part of the "correct" terminology and those can be used such as crossbred. The problem is really with people not having been exposed to the phrase crossbred (unless they worked with domesticated animals) and are using the term that is commonly available which is hybrid. 

Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> Before I ask my question, this is not in reference to mixing, or multi-species tanks, or ethics, or evolution. So, please keep those comments to yourself.
> 
> .


Jellyman,
I have beliefs that differ from the mainstream here at times, but please stay on topic or don't comment. 
If you have something that is relavent to the subject at hand, please feel free to contribute. If not, please don't.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> In the situation you mentioned, I think "intergrade" is a more accurate term. People just apply the term "hybrid" as a conversational short-hand.


 
Intergrade doesn't meet the criteria as in the literature intergradation zones are used interchangeably with zones of hybridization as intergrade can also refer to two different species breeding together.. 

Ed


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Intra-grade?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

The entire field of genetics was established by Gregor Mendel, who out-crossed (hybridized) garden peas to determine their inherited characteristics. I use very similar techniques in order to determine familial associations in a number of native plant groups.

How people "feel" about outcrossed frogs has nothing to do with a scientific interest in the frogs. It is a herpetocultural phenomena that has been created by the hobby. Most hobbyists prefer to see/keep their frogs as they would be seen in nature (or a close approximation). It's really nothing more than a fancy (one, btw, that I very much support).

Just my opinion, Richard.


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## Uniceros (Mar 19, 2011)

This topic always reminds me of orchids... Where a plant without a tag is a lost cause. Orchid nomenclature seems like such a nightmare to me, so I try not to buy NoID plants.

Livebearers also come to mind - I've only ever seen the original X maculatus when I caught them myself in Mexico. I enjoy that I've seen myself that variatus hangs out in loose schools (mostly held together by microhabitats like pools or vegetation) with one large colorful male per group, not in the same water as maculatus but alongside helleri. These things are more fascinating than the crazy hormone induced colors they sell in shops, so I respect this hobby's dedication to preserving wild types.

As for the term hybrid, sometimes its unfortunate that popular usage drives language change; this one seems to me one of those words laypeople just throw around willy nilly. I think crossbreed is a better term. Mutt is just as accurate. Neither sounds particularly positive to me, so that's a plus in this situation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Uniceros said:


> As for the term hybrid, sometimes its unfortunate that popular usage drives language change; this one seems to me one of those words laypeople just throw around willy nilly. I think crossbreed is a better term. Mutt is just as accurate. Neither sounds particularly positive to me, so that's a plus in this situation.


 
The term crossbred in its original usages didn't necessarily carry a positive or negative connotation. The positive and negative connotations to crossbred are fairly modern...and related to dogs, and here in the hobby frogs. It has even been used in popular culture (for example as part of scene in The Quiet Man when Mary Kate Danahur tells Sean Thorton to approach her brother for her dowery money since he just sold the crossbred sheep.).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> Intra-grade?


 
What is the value to coining a new word to describe it when there is an established phrase that just isn't commonly used today?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ideas for you Scott. Maybe use some of these ad nauseum and see if they become adopted in mainstream dart frog talk:

Outcrossed
Interbred
Muddied
Sterilized
NOID frog
Genetically discombobulated 
Genetically impaired
Physically differentiated
Species disabled


Would any of these work?


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I am not looking to coin a new word. I just wanted to know why everyone used the term Hybrid. 
Crossbred seems more appropriate, thought there was some grand reason, that's all.


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## Uniceros (Mar 19, 2011)

Because "designer frog" is even more inappropriate


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> I am not looking to coin a new word. I just wanted to know why everyone used the term Hybrid.
> Crossbred seems more appropriate, thought there was some grand reason, that's all.


 
Hybrid is the word that comes to mind first for most people...partly because they haven't read the older threads discussing this topic. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Folks in dart frogs have to work harder to make the word 'hybrid' less attractive simply b/c in other fields it holds a positive connotation. With our frogs the word is a curse as it carries with it the potential for hurting an entire race of animals. Genetics are the issue here. Plants, dogs, cats, people---we can interbreed and crossbreed with desirable results within our genus. 

Dart frogs generally cannot, and what does not occur in the wild occurs illegitimately. (just getting on the soapbox, Scott---it isn't really for you in particular)


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I take no offence. We agree 100%.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> Intergrade doesn't meet the criteria as in the literature intergradation zones are used interchangeably with zones of hybridization as intergrade can also refer to two different species breeding together..
> 
> Ed


Wow, considering the frequency that this topic enjoys, I'm surprised I hadn't caught on to that before. So the official term is "crossbreed"? To be honest I think the reason I haven't often used that term is that it reminds me more of "The Searchers" than "The Quiet Man". 

I think I like the term "designer frog" best, personally.

Here's a thought...as the state of the "dart frog family tree" shifts back and forth due to the tug-o-war between the splitters and lumpers, couldn't a frog be a crossbreed one day, and a hybrid the next?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Susan,

Don't you think this sounds a little harsh?

I thought we were supposed to be having fun!

Take care, Richard.



earthfrog said:


> Folks in dart frogs have to work harder to make the word 'hybrid' less attractive simply b/c in other fields it holds a positive connotation. With our frogs the word is a curse as it carries with it the potential for hurting an entire race of animals. Genetics are the issue here. Plants, dogs, cats, people---we can interbreed and crossbreed with desirable results within our genus.
> 
> Dart frogs generally cannot, and what does not occur in the wild occurs illegitimately. (just getting on the soapbox, Scott---it isn't really for you in particular)


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Scott Richardson said:


> I am not looking to coin a new word. I just wanted to know why everyone used the term Hybrid.
> Crossbred seems more appropriate, thought there was some grand reason, that's all.


I think most people sometimes don't put enough thought into word choice. "Hybrid" is the first word that comes to mind (and why not, just about _everyone_ knows what a hybrid is to some extent). People just tend to expand the scope of the word to include anything that is crossed from two different sources.

Hybrid is a cross between species (i.e. leuc x auratus)

Oucrossed or crossbred frogs are same species crosses between morph/color/locality/population (i.e. azureus x Brazilian Yellow Head)

Most of us let the poor word choice slide because, while it's technically inaccurate, we understand the intent of the author.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> Wow, considering the frequency that this topic enjoys, I'm surprised I hadn't caught on to that before. So the official term is "crossbreed"? To be honest I think the reason I haven't often used that term is that it reminds me more of "The Searchers" than "The Quiet Man".
> 
> I think I like the term "designer frog" best, personally.
> 
> Here's a thought...as the state of the "dart frog family tree" shifts back and forth due to the tug-o-war between the splitters and lumpers, couldn't a frog be a crossbreed one day, and a hybrid the next?


 
Ideally the term should be neutral in connotation to alllow people to weigh the information without bias but the hobby is going to put a negative spin on anything that denotes a frog of mixed descent... It should be noted that designer frogs puts a positive spin on the designation (as at the very least it implies a deliberate design that is desirable).

I'm not sure that we are likely to see a shift in the nomenclature that is going to be significant enough to chage crossbred animals into hybrids.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Ideally the term should be neutral in connotation to alllow people to weigh the information without bias but the hobby is going to put a negative spin on anything that denotes a frog of mixed descent... *It should be noted that designer frogs puts a positive spin on the designation (as at the very least it implies a deliberate design that is desirable).*
> I'm not sure that we are likely to see a shift in the nomenclature that is going to be significant enough to chage crossbred animals into hybrids.


I would have to disagree with that...to me the word 'designer' as a verb brings up images of circa 1991 puff-painted or glitter-painted shirts worn by overweight mid-forties women in gaudy blue eyeshadow and heels


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> Jellyman,
> I have beliefs that differ from the mainstream here at times, but please stay on topic or don't comment.
> If you have something that is relavent to the subject at hand, please feel free to contribute. If not, please don't.


What I stated is extremely relevant whether it differs from your opinon or not. Frogs can also be bred, cross bred, line bred, hybridized etc to produce traits that are desirable. For example fine spot leucs, fine spot azeurus, albino auratus and the list can go on and on. I simply made it clear that the example given of greater yielding crops is a positive outcome even though many trial and errors took place to get the desired outcome.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Ed said:


> Actually this ignores all of the failed attempts in agriculture with respect to cross breeding.. as well as all of the problems with crossbreeding in different populations of anurans.. see for example SpringerLink - Conservation Genetics, Volume 6, Number 2
> 
> 
> With respect to domestic crops (animal or otherwise), people have to keep in mind that crosses are tested in the field and are rated on thier production... some of those productions do not meet the criteria and are discarded.
> ...


I think you may have misread my statement. I specifically noted the numerous failed attempts it took to get to the final product and yet the outcome is positive.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> What I stated is extremely relevant whether it differs from your opinon or not. Frogs can also be bred, cross bred, line bred, hybridized etc to produce traits that are desirable. For example fine spot leucs, fine spot azeurus, albino auratus and the list can go on and on. I simply made it clear that the example given of greater yielding crops is a positive outcome even though many trial and errors took place to get the desired outcome.


How is any of that ramble relevant to the question " Why do they call them hybrids?"


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> How is any of that ramble relevant to the question " Why do they call them hybrids?"


Because this board in general interchanges hybrid, cross breed, cross morph, mixing and anything else that fits with hybrid and then try to place a negative spin on any of those terms.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> Because this board in general interchanges hybrid, cross breed, cross morph, mixing and anything else that fits with hybrid and then try to place a negative spin on any of those terms.


Well, I gotta agree with that logic. You are correct.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> Because this board in general interchanges hybrid, cross breed, cross morph, mixing and anything else that fits with hybrid and then try to place a negative spin on any of those terms.


 
And what is the positive outcome of producing frogs that fit those descriptions in the hobby? 

Instead of hijacking the thread further, why not answer in one of the other threads such as http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/47152-more-waffling-hybridizing.html ? 

We can put up a pro and con list in one of them....


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Thanks Ed.

Originally Posted by Jellyman 
Because this board in general interchanges hybrid, cross breed, cross morph, mixing and anything else that fits with hybrid and then try to place a negative spin on any of those terms.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> What I stated is extremely relevant whether it differs from your opinon or not. Frogs can also be bred, cross bred, line bred, hybridized etc to produce traits that are desirable. For example fine spot leucs, fine spot azeurus, albino auratus and the list can go on and on. I simply made it clear that the example given of greater yielding crops is a positive outcome even though many trial and errors took place to get the desired outcome.


Breeders who breed for external traits are breeding a limited gene pool into frogs and increasing the chances of a deleterious mutation. They are hurting the frogs and the hobby at large. It was painful to read this as a valid suggestion. 

Anyway, do continue this on another thread, and let's call dart frog hybrids 'Misbreeds', NOIDS or something more appropriate. The term is not deserving of a positive connotation in any way, shape, form or spot pattern.


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