# "Ghost trees" haunt London



## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

Hey guys, check this out:

BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Ghost trees 'haunt' London square

an artist is sending huge trees from the rainforests in Ghana and setting them up in London to raise awareness and such about deforestation. Pretty cool.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I would think the amount of money spent transporting those stumps to London could have been better spent on rainforest land aquisition. I see the shock factor but a nice photo array could have told the story while saving/preserving a tract of land in the process.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> I would think the amount of money spent transporting those stumps to London could have been better spent on rainforest land aquisition. I see the shock factor but a nice photo array could have told the story while saving/preserving a tract of land in the process.


I agree 100%


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

Although I understand what your saying, this was the act of an artist that choose to tell the story with his art. In theory his acts will raise awareness thus bringing in even more money than was spent. Had the artist just bought some land, no one would have heard about it. This way, many people are exposed to a problem that otherwise may have never crossed their minds.


Jellyman said:


> I would think the amount of money spent transporting those stumps to London could have been better spent on rainforest land aquisition. I see the shock factor but a nice photo array could have told the story while saving/preserving a tract of land in the process.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

JoshK said:


> Although I understand what your saying, this was the act of an artist that choose to tell the story with his art. In theory his acts will raise awareness thus bringing in even more money than was spent. Had the artist just bought some land, no one would have heard about it. This way, many people are exposed to a problem that otherwise may have never crossed their minds.


Sounds like an artist looking to bring more attention on himself then the underlying issue. How much artistic ability does it really take to excavate massive stumps and rootballs and spend an unbelievable amount of money to have them transported thousands of miles. He could have spent a fraction of the cost with a beautiful selection of mural sized photograhs and spent the rest of the money securing land forever. Instead he choose the shock factor to bring attention to his name. At least some good should come of it.


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

Not sure how beneficial this will be.

Nevertheless it's a only a short underground journey away so I may go and check it out. Can't beat Trafalgar Sq in the Winter.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

that stump would make a great center piece!! just need a small enough viv, ha....


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## Energy (Jul 17, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Sounds like an artist looking to bring more attention on himself then the underlying issue. How much artistic ability does it really take to excavate massive stumps and rootballs and spend an unbelievable amount of money to have them transported thousands of miles.


I believe the trees might have been illegally harvested. In Costa Rica this happens to often.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Energy said:


> I believe the trees might have been illegally harvested. In Costa Rica this happens to often.


Sorry, I was not meaning the artist cut down the trees. Just expressing that anyone with a backhoe and alot of money could have done what this "artist" has done.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

all it provokes in me is to wonder how much fossil fuel ws wasted in the excavation and transport of these stumps. Apparently they were from a sustainable forestry operation in Ghana, which is all fine and good. But there are many parts of Africa where rootballs are being dug up as the only source of firewood, so Im thinking all the effort, time and money involved in this "art" project could have been better directed. 

The natural forms the roots take is the only "art" involved here in my opinion


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

It always amazes me that when someone does something to try and raise awareness to an environmental issue, they get raked over the coals for what they did and whether it used more fuels than it saved. I realize it could be seen as a bit hypocritical but at least they are doing something. Yet, think about how many tons of fossil fuels are used to play one major league baseball game and no one says a word. It's a total waste that teaches no one anything. Totally empty entertainment. Why don't they buy a section of rainforest instead? Because they make money and no one seems to mind. Why then mind when an artist does it. Most artist do not make tons of money like baseball players and owners. 

It just struck me to read this thread and then read the Yanks vs Phillies thread. I guess you can tell I'm not much of a major league sports fan, but I love the rainforest. Rant over!


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

1st off, this will gather much more attention than photos. A photo is just that, and there are tons of them showing forests getting cut down. This is a display that takes it out of the photo and makes it real to the people that see it. Theres a big difference than a photo and something you can reach out and touch.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm flabbergasted at all the people posting on the first page of this thread - you have obviously not watched the video, because if you had you would (a) know that it's a woman artist, not a man, and (b) that the trees come from a sustainable forest in Ghana. Come on, if you're going to bluster your opinion on this video to us, at least watch the video.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

johnc said:


> I'm flabbergasted at all the people posting on the first page of this thread - you have obviously not watched the video, because if you had you would (a) know that it's a woman artist, not a man, and (b) that the trees come from a sustainable forest in Ghana. Come on, if you're going to bluster your opinion on this video to us, at least watch the video.


 
I watched the video and knew it was a woman, but for whatever reason was typing "his" instead of "her".


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I do not believe this has anything to do about the artist being a man or a women or that the stump came from a sustainable forest. It is the cost associated with issue and how it could have better allocated.

A baseball game is just that, a game. There is no underlying "save the world" agenda. If the game was being played for the sole purpose of saving grassy fields then the cost to put on the production would be hypocritical.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

The artist made an excellent point, with which I totally agree - people become numb to statistics and scientists. This is a much more visible point and easier to get the attention of ordinary people who have become jaded to "environment"-this, "rainforest"-that.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

harrywitmore said:


> It always amazes me that when someone does something to try and raise awareness to an environmental issue, they get raked over the coals for what they did and whether it used more fuels than it saved. I realize it could be seen as a bit hypocritical but at least they are doing something. Yet, think about how many tons of fossil fuels are used to play one major league baseball game and no one says a word. It's a total waste that teaches no one anything. Totally empty entertainment. Why don't they buy a section of rainforest instead? Because they make money and no one seems to mind. Why then mind when an artist does it. Most artist do not make tons of money like baseball players and owners.
> 
> It just struck me to read this thread and then read the Yanks vs Phillies thread. I guess you can tell I'm not much of a major league sports fan, but I love the rainforest. Rant over!


Do you have a problem with my Yanks. vs Phillies thread!!!

Kidding of coarse!

John


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

johnc said:


> The artist made an excellent point, with which I totally agree - people become numb to statistics and scientists. This is a much more visible point and easier to get the attention of ordinary people who have become jaded to "environment"-this, "rainforest"-that.


I will admit, this is true.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm afraid your just not going to understand this one. Try thinking outside of the box and understanding that this person is an artist, and artists LIVE outside of the box. 

"Save the children" commercials air A LOT and it isn't cheap, so why not use that money to feed the people? Well, if they didn't have commercials we wouldn't know a thing about them, and most people would have never even heard of them. Silence is not any way to raise awareness.


Jellyman said:


> I do not believe this has anything to do about the artist being a man or a women or that the stump came from a sustainable forest. It is the cost associated with issue and how it could have better allocated.
> 
> A baseball game is just that, a game. There is no underlying "save the world" agenda. If the game was being played for the sole purpose of saving grassy fields then the cost to put on the production would be hypocritical.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Art is just that art. It's to be enjoyed and sometimes to teach but not always. If they want to make a statement with it they can but that is not it's sole purpose. If the teams would have worn a tree on their jersey and donated 1% of the nights proceeds to the same cause you most likely would have been applauding them. 

No problem with the thread just a problem with the stark difference in the tone.


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## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

a few questions jellyman

You stated that she spent an unbelievable amount of money, please state how much in US dollars, and how you got that information.
You stated that it would take a fraction of that cost to make mural sized paintings. How much do these cost? and again what is a fraction of the money?
you also made judgments on the quality of the art, are you an artistic critic?
and same, how much money in fossil fuels did it cost? please state in US Dollars, and how you got that information

a few more

How much money did it cost to transport the stumps?
How much time did it take?
How many people will be affected by the art presentation?
How much money will be made from the awareness this art presentation will bring?
How much awareness will come out of this presentation?
Are you a conservational scientist?
Are you a economist?

When you answer all of these, maybe then we will have a better idea if this was a good idea or not. Just some ideas


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Dendrobatesrichardii said:


> a few questions jellyman
> 
> You stated that she spent an unbelievable amount of money, please state how much in US dollars, and how you got that information.
> You stated that it would take a fraction of that cost to make mural sized paintings. How much do these cost? and again what is a fraction of the money?
> ...


Let's be realistic:
It cost $14 or more for me to send a small package from Kansas to New York. I'm guessing the cost to transport a couple thousand tons from a remote sustainable rainforest after excavating it from the earth has quite a hefty price tag associated with it. 

I'll simply estimate a fraction of the cost to be easily less then 5% of the cost to remove and transport the stumps.

To be honest if the story had any merit then all the information you are looking for would have already been provided. This was simply a publicity stunt and the only thing artistic about it was how the "artist" painted "her" face as being concerned about the environment.


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## rpmurphey (Mar 9, 2009)

The main reason, to me, is the focus on saving the rainforest and not the focus on the use of fossil fuels. She is not doing this to help with global warming but to save the rain forrest. If she was trying to do both then she would have maybe mentioned something about it in the video. People need to stop coming up with assumptions and just try to accept what she is trying to get accross with the medium that she is using. 

Deforrestation and Global Warming are two different topics that are closely related. Deforrestation helps (so it seems) with Global Warming. That point you can argue but with the video I don't see any issue raised on the point of Global Warming. I think that the video was just a ploy to make people more aware of deforrestation. That is just one small step to better the rainforrest and inturn help with global warming but in an unrelated way.

Art is art, and art will make people think. That is to me why art is created. (end)


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

JoshK said:


> I'm afraid your just not going to understand this one. Try thinking outside of the box and understanding that this person is an artist, and artists LIVE outside of the box.
> 
> "Save the children" commercials air A LOT and it isn't cheap, so why not use that money to feed the people? Well, if they didn't have commercials we wouldn't know a thing about them, and most people would have never even heard of them. Silence is not any way to raise awareness.


I see your point.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

group tree hug


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## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Let's be realistic:
> It cost $14 or more for me to send a small package from Kansas to New York. I'm guessing the cost to transport a couple thousand tons from a remote sustainable rainforest after excavating it from the earth has quite a hefty price tag associated with it.
> 
> I'll simply estimate a fraction of the cost to be easily less then 5% of the cost to remove and transport the stumps.
> ...



Well that still doesn't answer my questions, so I will state them again:

A) how much money will it cost for the exhibit verses how much the exhibit will raise?
B) please state in US dollars, and how you got that information
"estimating" doesn't mean much unless you are an economist of some sort.

or: if you want to "estimate", can you now "estimate" how much money this awareness will bring?
Show the statistics for this too, please.


Did you see the end of the video where these trees will be at the 4th Climate Conference? Don't you think those scientist would not let that happen if they thought it was a publicity stunt?

And since you also decided to make character judgments on the artist, a couple more questions:

a) do you personally know the artist?
b) do you know her intentions for this?

I would be careful on making personal character judgments on anyone.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Let's be realistic:
> It cost $14 or more for me to send a small package from Kansas to New York. I'm guessing the cost to transport a couple thousand tons from a remote sustainable rainforest after excavating it from the earth has quite a hefty price tag associated with it.
> 
> I'll simply estimate a fraction of the cost to be easily less then 5% of the cost to remove and transport the stumps.
> ...


Well seems to me until you yourself lives a carbon neutral lifestyle then you cannot condemn this person. It appears to me you have more of a problem with the fact that she is being called an artist and specifically you seem to be insinuating that this artist has no artistic ability or talent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but everyone should be able to back their opinion with some reason, and to that effect I ask you "What is your definition of art?"


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

tachikoma said:


> Well seems to me until you yourself lives a carbon neutral lifestyle then you cannot condemn this person. It appears to me you have more of a problem with the fact that she is being called an artist and specifically you seem to be insinuating that this artist has no artistic ability or talent. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but everyone should be able to back their opinion with some reason, and to that effect I ask you "What is your definition of art?"


You are correct. My view on art is definitlely not 10 stumps randomly placed in an empty town square. I view art as a talent or craft that not everyone is capable of replicating. 


My only beef is the cost for the wow factor. I personally feel this money could have been spent in a much more beneficial way if the premise is to raise awareness.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Dendrobatesrichardii said:


> Well that still doesn't answer my questions, so I will state them again:
> 
> A) how much money will it cost for the exhibit verses how much the exhibit will raise?
> B) please state in US dollars, and how you got that information
> ...


I have emailed your questions to the "Ghost Tree" foundation. I really do not expect a reply but I will pass along any nformation they supply. But, maybe they will.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

I suspect this artist is in it to make a living. I don't think she could make a living on this exhibit if she was spending more of her money than she was making. Believe me, most artist that are own their own are keenly aware of working in the black. All we know is that she did what she thought was an artistic statement. She most likely does this to make money not lose money. 

I personally don't care much for art critics either. I think art speaks to you if you enjoy it. I don't care what's supposed to be 'good' or 'bad' since those are a matters of opinion. 

I like this since I have a replica in my yard as we speak.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Do any of you believe that some here are much better at placing objects in a viv to get a more pleasing presentation. Say, a stump. Sure it has roots but some could place it and it look like crap and those with a more 'artful' talent could place it to look much better and mean so much more to the presentation. Would you say this person was not talented? 

I would call this person an 'artist'.


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## rpmurphey (Mar 9, 2009)

Well I have been in the shipping industry for 7 years now and I have estimated that the cost of shipping from Ghana to London will cost around $15,000

I have based this on the shipping that I do from China to Phoenix. I ship three 40' containers wieghing 38,000 lbs (57 tons total) at a cost of $5,000 for 7,516 miles.

The cost is more due to the wieght of 10 tree trunks that I have estimated to be around 6,000lbs a pc. (30 tons total).

The distance from Ghana to London buy air is 3,165 miles by boat I have estimated it to be around 5,000 miles


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## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

rpmurphey said:


> Well I have been in the shipping industry for 7 years now and I have estimated that the cost of shipping from Ghana to London will cost around $15,000
> 
> I have based this on the shipping that I do from China to Phoenix. I ship three 40' containers wieghing 38,000 lbs (57 tons total) at a cost of $5,000 for 7,516 miles.
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks. I'm very surprised, I would have figured this to cost exceedingly more than just 15,000. 15,000 is nothing, considering what this exhibit could potentially raise. Now, the only problem is to find how much awareness and money these now will raise... Good luck on that on right?

Thanks for sharing this with us.


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## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

Something interesting to show just how MANY people will be seeing this attraction:

"Both locations provide a powerful stage: Trafalgar Square is one of the world’s most visited tourist sites and the epicentre of Western industrialisation over the past 200 years."
Angela Palmer | Artist

and to top that:

"The Ghost Forest will be in Trafalgar Square in London until November 22, courtesy of the GLA, and will then be shipped directly to Copenhagen where it will be exhibited in Thorvaldsens Plads, a magnificent city centre square next to Parliament Square and the National Museum, to coincide with the UN Climate Change Conference from December 7 – 18. The future of rainforests will lead the agenda at the UN conference, which will be attended by over 11,000 delegates from 192 countries."
Angela Palmer | Artist



So let me get this straight:
they will be placed at one of the world's most visited tourist sight
AND
will lead the Climate Change Conference, which the ghost trees with be there first thing seen by some 11,000 delegates from 192 countries. The first thing these delegates (who will be making decisions that change the future for rainforests) will look at before they enter the conference is these huge trees, putting in their minds about rain forest conservation and protection.

NOW tell me that's not worth doing.


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## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

Also
this event is endorsed by the following:

The Global Canopy Programme
(Global Canopy Programme)
University of Oxford Department of Engineering Science (Department of Engineering Science, Oxford University: Home)
Environmental Change Institute – Oxford Centre for Tropical Forests (OCTF)
(OCTF – www.octf.org.uk) 
WWF- yes, the World Wide Fund for nature
The Prince’s Rainforests Project
Rainforest Concern
(Rainforest Concern - Welcome to Rainforest Concern)

Not to mention numerous scientist from around the world. check out the websites if you still have doubts


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> I would think the amount of money spent transporting those stumps to London could have been better spent on rainforest land aquisition. I see the shock factor but a nice photo array could have told the story while saving/preserving a tract of land in the process.


at the same time if i buy only shade grown coffee im helping the rainforest...but if i also put up flyers showing pictures of what happens to the rainforests when you buy folgers, then more people than just me will buy only shade grown coffee. a lot of conservation organizations spend around 1/4 of their money on advertisement. if they didnt, nobody would know there was a problem.

more people helping a good cause is always better than someone standing alone. unless your bill gates and you have 54 billion dollars  haha, why dont you get mad at him?? he only gave $25,000 to WWF. thats the equivelent of me giving $25. 

anyway, i think its a cool idea. whatever makes people understand we need to do something.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I do not mind taking the lashing over my opinion. Some of which is probably more then deserved. I'm going to hug my tree now. Peace.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> You are correct. My view on art is definitlely not 10 stumps randomly placed in an empty town square. I view art as a talent or craft that not everyone is capable of replicating.
> 
> 
> My only beef is the cost for the wow factor. I personally feel this money could have been spent in a much more beneficial way if the premise is to raise awareness.


I'm a professional artist, and while I agree with your definition of art I have to accept the definition others have of it as well. This was a source of great frustration for me in college and graduate school as I busted my butt slaving over my art projects for weeks and other people would splatter paint on a canvas literally taking 10 seconds and receive the same grades. Now as much as I hated this I could never come up with an honest definition of art that excluded their work. So I guess art really is just outward expressions and all anyone can say is if they like the work or not.


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## NorthernFrogguy1976 (Apr 7, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> I do not mind taking the lashing over my opinion. Some of which is probably more then deserved. I'm going to hug my tree now. Peace.


He man, thats ok. If the tree is big enough, maybe we can all hug it!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> I do not mind taking the lashing over my opinion. Some of which is probably more then deserved. I'm going to hug my tree now. Peace.


i dont think anyone is giving you a lashing, atleast i wasnt. you gave your opinion, and now everybody else wants to give you theirs. think of it as respectively disagreeing


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> I do not mind taking the lashing over my opinion. Some of which is probably more then deserved. I'm going to hug my tree now. Peace.



Hahaha It's all good! As John Lennon once said 'Everybody's got one'


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

So I went...


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