# Rock Wall #3 - Now Modular!



## melas

Okay so Christmas was good to me this year. I was able to snag an Exoterra 24x18x24 earlier this week. So the plan this time is to mount the rock wall onto eggcrate so that it can be removed from the terrarium and more importantly so that it can be built OUTSIDE of the terrarium. I plan on using a Velcro strip at the top of the rock wall on the back to secure it to the glass. This rock wall will also be incorporating a water fall. This is a first for me with the rock walls so we'll see how it goes. I plan on using a false bottom and already have that cut and fitted (i'll be adding the lifts later). On the left side of the tank I have created a pump box. I plan on lining this with nylon screen so that the pump does not become clogged. I am also planning on trying 100% Portland Cement for the concrete. 





























Here is the pump I plan on using.


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## clwatkins10

Awesome! I just ordered that exact size exo Three days ago! I can't wait to see the final product


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## melas

clwatkins10 said:


> Awesome! I just ordered that exact size exo Three days ago!


It's sweet! You won't be disappointed! I was pleasantly surprised by the thickness of the glass - it's all pretty heavy duty with the exception of the doors - not that they need any additional heft since they are not load bearing.


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## clwatkins10

melas said:


> It's sweet! You won't be disappointed! I was pleasantly surprised by the thickness of the glass - it's all pretty heavy duty with the exception of the doors - not that they need any additional heft since they are not load bearing.


Great! I'm used to heavy duty glass. (my one foot cube has 4 mm glass )
Did I miss rock wall one? or was it #2 that I missed?


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## melas

clwatkins10 said:


> Did I miss rock wall one? or was it #2 that I missed?


This was #1
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...281-30gallon-tall-w-artificial-rock-wall.html

This was #2
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...k-wall-tank-18x18x24-exoterra.html#post291562


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## clwatkins10

melas said:


> This was #1
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...281-30gallon-tall-w-artificial-rock-wall.html
> 
> This was #2
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...k-wall-tank-18x18x24-exoterra.html#post291562


ah, yes. I remember #1 now. They are all very nice


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## melas

Thanks! I'm pulling everything I've learned on the previous two into this one!


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## clwatkins10

melas said:


> Thanks! I'm pulling everything I've learned on the previous two into this one!


Sounds awesome. What plants are you going for?


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## melas

I'm really not even there yet in my mind - planting is where I kind of fall apart. I really want to get some colorful neos this time. I definitely want to ensure that the rock wall /waterfall are visible through the jungle this time!


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## divingne1

Home Depot carries the industrial strength velcro. I used it on my 120g. It held up good on the side that wasn't very heavy but the side that has the slate rock GS'd into the background is pulling away. The adhesive is pulling away from the velcro. Going to have to re-do that eventually.

Can't wait to see this one done. Your tanks always look good.
Candy


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## parkanz2

I'm working on a very basic rock water bowl at the moment... My first attempt with fake rock work. I used a non sanded grout, and I really like the workability of it. I tried to use a masonry cement, but even with the really small amounts of aggregate, it left a weird bumpy look.

Does pure portland cement have any aggregate in it?


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## JoshH

parkanz2 said:


> Does pure portland cement have any aggregate in it?


I don't think so. It's very powdery....almost like dust. I'm having great results just using sanded and non-sanded grouts. If I'm going for sharp detail and cleved looks then I use non-sanded. For more eroded and boulder-like displays I use the sanded.


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## melas

parkanz2 said:


> Does pure Portland cement have any aggregate in it?


Nope. It's the consistency of flour. It's the stuff that you add the aggregates to. It's very smooth. You can add sand to it if you want the "sanded" look. It's really cheap too. I actually have most of a 50lb bag left from a previous home improvement project. I'm going to do a test with the Portland cement and do a small boulder to see how it turns out. I'll post my results here as well.


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## clwatkins10

What do you think of the strength, or hardness of the portland cement? I might redo my rocks because they aren't as heavy duty as I'd like them to be


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## HX

In theory pure cement is not as strong as it is mixed with sand. Without any filler it also shrinks a lot more when curing and drying. When doing multiple layers this may not be a problem, though.

Normal fine grout contains portland, filler sand (grain size smaller than 0,1 mm) and coloring.


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## parkanz2

have you guys ever used cement stains for coloring the rock features? I started out using the powdered cement pigments, but if it doesn't mix in completely it tends to rub off, it's also pretty hard to rub off to get that shadows in the cracks look. I've got some non toxic, acrylic craft paints that I'm going to experiment with next.

I'm also going to try to find some more colors of grout. I'm going to have to find a tile supply store or something like that because the color selection at the hardware was pretty limited.

I was curious about the concrete staining because I saw someone do a cement counter top and made it look very interesting with different shades and swirls like a random piece of rock might have. Just curious!


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## Julio

i can't wait to see this one!!


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## jausi

parkanz2 said:


> have you guys ever used cement stains for coloring the rock features? I started out using the powdered cement pigments, but if it doesn't mix in completely it tends to rub off, it's also pretty hard to rub off to get that shadows in the cracks look. I've got some non toxic, acrylic craft paints that I'm going to experiment with next.
> 
> I'm also going to try to find some more colors of grout. I'm going to have to find a tile supply store or something like that because the color selection at the hardware was pretty limited.
> 
> I was curious about the concrete staining because I saw someone do a cement counter top and made it look very interesting with different shades and swirls like a random piece of rock might have. Just curious!


Hi 
I use stains coloor for my main structure for a paludarium I had before and I also used colors for land areas for scale trains (if you know wha I mean, sorry but I not sure how do you call that hobby), I used surface bonding cement and I mixed with concret bonding additive, I also cover the structure with concrete sealer, to stop any leaching for concret AND TO KEEP THE PH for the water in a normal level, you can check me journal here is the link: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/29051-paludarium-proyect.html


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## melas

parkanz2 said:


> have you guys ever used cement stains for coloring the rock features? ... I've got some non toxic, acrylic craft paints that I'm going to experiment with next.


I've never tried it - i've only ever used the non-toxic acrylic paints. Cool site!


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## Nick_

Melas, that is a great idea. I would be very wary of that ZM pump. I like alot of thier products, but we have a substantially higher return rate on the zoomeds small pumps than most anyother brand. The impeller shafts and wells are very low tolerance. They dont like running dry. Just a tip, not trying to be negative. If your ever looking for another tiny pump, the Maxijet microjet is a sick little guy that cannot be killed. I like our eggcrating, it is nice and neat. Making the wall outside should be so much easier, Im going to have to steal that idea for my next build, if you don't mind.


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## jubjub47

Nicholas OConnor said:


> I like our eggcrating, it is nice and neat. Making the wall outside should be so much easier, Im going to have to steal that idea for my next build, if you don't mind.


I've done the eggcrating background on my last 4 builds. It is so much easier to work on and complete when you have full motion. You'll never go back once you try it.


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## melas

Nicholas OConnor said:


> Melas, that is a great idea. I would be very wary of that ZM pump. I like alot of thier products, but we have a substantially higher return rate on the zoomeds small pumps than most anyother brand. The impeller shafts and wells are very low tolerance. They dont like running dry. Just a tip, not trying to be negative. If your ever looking for another tiny pump, the Maxijet microjet is a sick little guy that cannot be killed. I like our eggcrating, it is nice and neat. Making the wall outside should be so much easier, Im going to have to steal that idea for my next build, if you don't mind.


Yeah I wondered about this pump - got it at That Pet Place - with my wholesale discount it was like $6 so I figured I'd give it a go. It actually says on the box that it can run dry for 30+ hours . . . haha! I'll keep an eye on it - I don't expect it to ever run dry as I'm planning on having several inches of water above the pump at all times - thanks for the heads up! I guess you get what you pay for! haha!


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## melas

jubjub47 said:


> I've done the eggcrating background on my last 4 builds. It is so much easier to work on and complete when you have full motion. You'll never go back once you try it.


Yeah I suspect it WILL be much easier though it is somewhat limiting of the design - my last rock wall incorporated all 4 walls of the vivarium - something extremely difficult to pull off with this method - we'll see how it goes!

matt


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## Nick_

melas said:


> Yeah I wondered about this pump - got it at That Pet Place - with my wholesale discount it was like $6 so I figured I'd give it a go. It actually says on the box that it can run dry for 30+ hours . . . haha! I'll keep an eye on it - I don't expect it to ever run dry as I'm planning on having several inches of water above the pump at all times - thanks for the heads up! I guess you get what you pay for! haha!


Hey, for $6 you can't go wrong. It would not suprise me if one our vendor reps told me it will percipitate golden nuggets....lol.


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## melas

Nicholas OConnor said:


> Hey, for $6 you can't go wrong. It would not suprise me if one our vendor reps told me it will percipitate golden nuggets....lol.


Haha! Yeah that's kind of what I thought . . . I've paid more than that for replacement parts on other filters I've owned . . .


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## melas

Just a small update - 

here is my temporary work area - a card table with a sheet of plywood on top









here's the foam - straight from the dumpster 









some sweet sculpting tools i picked up at lowes









detail of the pump "cage" - there is screen around five sides - i'm hoping this will keep the pump from getting clogged - should be very effective as I used multiple layers of screen thus seriously reducing the size of the holes in the mesh



















shot of the "plumbing"









more to come!


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## Devanny

Trash picker!...Trash picker!
Jk, I cant wait to see this come together...I love the other 2 rock tanks you did but this one should be even better then the last 2 especially if its going to have a water feature.


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## afterdark

Looks awesome so far! I work at an A/V company and I'll be setting aside a ton of foam to work on my own based on how successful you and others have been with this method.

Keep us posted and thanks for all your hard work so far!

Cheers,


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## melas

Devanny said:


> Trash picker!...Trash picker!
> Jk, I cant wait to see this come together...I love the other 2 rock tanks you did but this one should be even better then the last 2 especially if its going to have a water feature.


umm we prefer the term DUMPSTER DIVER! 

Yeah I'm pretty excited about the water feature myself! 

I need to get some more pics up of my current progress. I have two "ponds" on the back wall. The water will flow into the first pond and then overflow into the second pond (about an 8" drop) and then from there it will flow to a gravel pit. There won't be any standing water in the pit - I'm still kicking around whether or not I will have any standing water visible elsewhere in the terrarium. It should be pretty cool though! I'm planning on a having java moss and riccia growing on the rocks in this area as it should remain relatively wet. The rest of the terrarium shouldn't be effected though - we'll see as it's hard to predict exactly where the water is going to go!


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## melas

afterdark said:


> Keep us posted and thanks for all your hard work so far!


Haha! Thanks! You act as if building these is a selfless act! haha!


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## melas

Okay more progress!


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## McBobs

Really looking good so far! How did you get the rounded shape to each of the "rocks"? Did you individually shape each piece or is there a faster way than what im thinking of? 

-Matt


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## Fishman

Looking good. I am going to be following this one!


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## melas

McBobs said:


> Really looking good so far! How did you get the rounded shape to each of the "rocks"? Did you individually shape each piece or is there a faster way than what im thinking of?
> 
> -Matt


Thanks! Yeah I cut each piece one at a time - this point represents about 6 hours worth of work . . . no one said this wasn't a painstaking process! When I'm done I'll take a torch to it to get some more random pits and textures.


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## Devanny

Its looking good Matt...Reminds me of mine RIP lol


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## melas

Devanny said:


> Its looking good Matt...Reminds me of mine RIP lol


Haha! Thanks! Yours will be resurrected soon enough! The foam is in the mail!


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## tangelo

I was curious about about your curing process, if you were to do a desert themed terrarium using your techniques for say leopard geckos, would you still need to cure the rock for just as long? Just curious because it would be dry and not nearly as humid obviously and i did not know if the curing process was necessary because of the water leaching out harmful things and/or raising the ph? Thanks and any inputs are very appreciated...


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## melas

I would say that no matter the application you'd want your concrete to be as hard/strong as possible so that it would be durable enough to last for years of enjoyment. Curing is merely the hydration process - this is necessary for the concrete to come to full strength. This I would recommend as it is done for sidewalks, walls, floors, etc in regular construction. What you will not need to do is the pH neutralization - ie: the vinegar solution as your Geckos do not have semi permeable skin like the frogs and their environments are much less humid! Just keep your concrete wet during the process and it will become quite strong - even as a relatively thin laminate. . . 

here is a post that i described this process in detail - please let me know if you need additional information!

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/34636-fake-rock-questions.html#post308465



melas said:


> Curing is one of the most important steps in working with concrete, because proper curing greatly increases its durability and strength. Concrete hardens as a result of hydration: the chemical reaction between cement and water. However, hydration occurs only if water is available. During the curing period-(five to seven days for conventional concrete) the concrete surface needs to be kept moist to permit the hydration process.
> 
> Neutralizing the pH of the concrete is especially important when using it in an amphibian enclosure. Portland cement (the binding ingredient in concrete) has an exceptionally high pH 13-14 and is very alkaline. When fully cured the pH tends to be more like 8-9 which is still way to high considering this is a logarithmic scale! The vinegar finishes the job by neutralizing the carbonates still in the surface of the concrete.
> 
> So they are related but are really performing two different functions. Curing = hardness and vinegar (acid) baths = pH neutralization.
> 
> Basically you need to keep the concrete wet for the first week. By combining the acid bath with the curing you can reduce your "down time" while working with the concrete.




http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/35790-concrete-curing-method.html#post322797



melas said:


> Hydration and hardening of concrete during the first three days is critical. Abnormally fast drying and shrinkage due to factors such as evaporation may lead to increased tensile stresses at a time when it has not yet gained significant strength, resulting in greater shrinkage cracking. The early strength of the concrete can be increased by keeping it damp for a longer period during the curing process. Minimizing stress prior to curing minimizes cracking. High early-strength concrete is designed to hydrate faster, often by increased use of cement which increases shrinkage and cracking.
> 
> During this period concrete needs to be in conditions with a controlled temperature and humid atmosphere, in practice this is achieved by spraying or ponding the concrete surface with water, thereby protecting concrete mass from ill effects of ambient conditions.
> 
> Properly curing concrete leads to increased strength and lower permeability, and avoids cracking where the surface dries out prematurely.
> 
> That said - I'm not sure how the the polymer mix would be effected by waiting until the first week of "wet" curing is completed to allow the concrete to dry out.
> 
> Depending on the polymers added, the curing time should be greatly reduced - polymer modified concretes can reach near full strength in a matter of hours - I don't know what you have exactly but it is probably okay for the application . . . it definitely wouldn't hurt to continue keeping it wet for a while even after you've allowed it to dry out. As a side note - I used a polymer modified floor leveling cement for my rockwalls - I kept them wet/damp for the entire process and my concrete is HARD!
> 
> Matt


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## tangelo

Thanks, that info was very helpful. I am picking up laticrete tomorrow and i will post pics later this weekend when i have something to show... I have three D. Reticulatus coming arond the first of March and in order to convince the girlfriend to lett me have more frogs, I promised her i would start on a new upgraded home for her two leopard geckos. They currently are in an 18x18x18 exo and will be moving into a massive 36x18x24 exo. Thanks again for the info, saved me a lot of time


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## melas

Okay I'm done gluing pieces of foam. My fingers have been thanking me as the hot glue burns have not been agreeable as of late . . .haha. I still need to take a torch to it to get rid of some of the hard edges and add some pits.



















Next step is the concrete! Woop woop!


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## melas

Okay so I went to my Lowe's and lo and behold it is now out of the Laticrete floor leveling cement as well - go figure! So I had to find a replacement - well pretty much in the exact same location as the floor leveling cement there is now a "Multipurpose" concrete. It is another type of polymer enhanced concrete. This stuff is also free from any kind of mold inhibitors etc and should be safe to use. I took a picture of it on the shelf - on the left you have white and on the right grey . . . I'll let you know how it turns out - I was going to just use straight portland cement but I think I want to do some testing with that first to see how it will hold up. In the meantime you can't beat $0.50 / lb!


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## NickBoudin

I stock laticrete sanded and unsanded grout at my work in the same carton type boxes.


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## melas

Okay got some more progress to show - I am now ready to start the concrete process - here are the final preparations

I attached a sheet of plastic to the back of the egg crate on the rock wall to keep the concrete from running through and messing up the "flatness" of the back









so i had to address a new issue - this particular build is the biggest one I've done so far - the concrete mixing tray I had been using before was not big enough for this one - below is a quick & dirty fix for this - total cost was about $8

slapped some scrap 2 x 4's together









heavy duty (3 mil) plastic sheeting attached with a bunch of staples









rock wall in place for scale









filled with about 4" of water

__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content










top view









when I'm done I'm just going to pump the water into a floor drain in my basement - it could be siphon'd out as well . . .


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## Fishman

Nice pond........


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## melas

haha! Thanks! I guess I never really explained what the "pond" was for . . . I'm going to use the pond to cure the cement underwater.


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## Fishman

I just tried the cement cure under water and wasn't fond of the results. The cures I have done with plastic bags and constant misting never cracked. The underwater cure has a huge crack. This may be due to something else, but I was bummed to have to fix it anyway.


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## melas

hmmm that's interesting. Cracking is typically caused by fast drying or tensile stress to the concrete during the early part of the curing process. I don't doubt that you had issues but I wonder if there was some other cause at play there.

FWIW - I've cured all of my rock walls underwater so far.


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## Fishman

Not sure what caused it then. Maybe the water got into the foam? I used great stuff as the support foam.


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## melas

ah that could do it. the great stuff foam will continue to expand for a bit after being applied and then will actually shrink back. I'm not sure what effect water would have on it but it could have just been a coincidence that you didn't have problems the other times - ie: your foam was stable by the time you applied the concrete in the "successful" attempts. do you have any pics up of your work?


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## JoshH

That's gonna be awesome when its done man!


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## jausi

Add some mollys when you place the concret under water (if you want they like hard water) they will create good bacteria to cover the concret cement, that what I did when I build my main structure for my paludarium, I use a couple of angels and some mollies and platies.

I hope to see the finish product soon


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## melas

Okay I finally got some concrete on this bad boy. This is the first coat that I put on kinda thin and runny. 










I let it sit and firm up for about an hour before dunking it in the "pond".


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## Devanny

Its starting to take shape, how did you get the concrete on it? I started the concrete today but its been kinda hard to get it into all the cracks.


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## NickBoudin

Looookin' gooood! Keep it up with the updates, as you know we all love those pics!


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## melas

Devanny said:


> Its starting to take shape, how did you get the concrete on it?


I'm a man so I just use my hands.  Yeah I just make it very thin (like a milkshake) and just smear it around. By being so thin it will actually move into the cracks via gravity. I use tools on the later coats to help shape it but apply the concrete with my hands during the whole process . . .

So you got the foam I sent you on Monday and you are ALREADY doing concrete? You are amazing!


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## Fishman

No I don't have any photos of the work I have done so far because frankly I am not all that impressed with my rock working abilities. I have a couple of other pieces I am going to try, I will keep photo logs of those.


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## melas

Fishman said:


> No I don't have any photos of the work I have done so far because frankly I am not all that impressed with my rock working abilities. I have a couple of other pieces I am going to try, I will keep photo logs of those.


Yeah if you get any pics I might be able to give you a few pointers. One thing I would say is you should try finding some of the polyethylene foam or at the least regular Styrofoam (just be sure to seal it). I think you'd have much better results as I believe the cement would adhere better for you.


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## Fishman

I just picked up more than I can use of the poly foam from a computer shipment at the office. That is what I am going to be using for the next one.


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## melas

sweet! I think you'll have better luck with that!


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## dannyces

hey really looking great cant wait to see it in the tank.
i do have one question with the new concrete you are using do you still need to add anything (coploymer?)? ok actually 2 questions would tile grout with the additive already into work as well or should i add more?
Thanks Danny


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## melas

dannyces said:


> hey really looking great cant wait to see it in the tank.
> i do have one question with the new concrete you are using do you still need to add anything (coploymer?)? ok actually 2 questions would tile grout with the additive already into work as well or should i add more?
> Thanks Danny


I've never added anything to the mixes that I've been using as they both have had them in already. Grout would work just so long as it does NOT have any mold inhibitors etc . . . 

Good Luck!


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## dannyces

great thanks for the quick reply 
now im off to homedepot and will hopefully post some pics tonite
Danny


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## Devanny

Ohhh only a man can do that huh lol, last time I used my hands my kin died up and started pealing, I ve been using a brush.
Haha I started semi sculpting the rocks as soon as I got the foam a work, Ill get a pic in a bit. 
I really like the dimension on yours, like I said before it reminds me of my old one.





melas said:


> I'm a man so I just use my hands.  Yeah I just make it very thin (like a milkshake) and just smear it around. By being so thin it will actually move into the cracks via gravity. I use tools on the later coats to help shape it but apply the concrete with my hands during the whole process . . .
> 
> So you got the foam I sent you on Monday and you are ALREADY doing concrete? You are amazing!


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## melas

Devanny said:


> Ohhh only a man can do that huh lol, last time I used my hands my kin died up and started pealing, I ve been using a brush.
> Haha I started semi sculpting the rocks as soon as I got the foam a work, Ill get a pic in a bit.
> I really like the dimension on yours, like I said before it reminds me of my old one.


 - i thought this thread could use a little sexism . . .haha! Yeah I just use my hands - they are definitely dry afterwards - nothing a little tropic berry hand lotion can't fix . . . I mean . . . um . . . motor oil . . . *cough*.


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## gold3nku5h

im about to start something like this too.. Did you use styrofoam, or polythylene foam?


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## milleryan46

Dude! Great work! It looks awesome so far!

-Ryan


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## melas

gold3nku5h said:


> im about to start something like this too.. Did you use styrofoam, or polythylene foam?


definitely the polyethylene foam! it is very porous and the cement adheres to it very well!


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## mystah

Do you cure the cement in the bath after each application?
and for 5-7 days each time?

BTW looks Great...I am gonna bring this Idea To Canada

Can't wait to start?


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## melas

mystah said:


> Do you cure the cement in the bath after each application?
> and for 5-7 days each time?
> 
> BTW looks Great...I am gonna bring this Idea To Canada
> 
> Can't wait to start?


I keep it in the bath for at least 3 days after each layer (I basically just keep it in there until I have time to do the next layer) - after the final layer I keep it in for at least 5-7 days - more depending on the progress of the pH neutralization of the concrete.


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## mystah

Cool Thanks melas


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## dannyces

ok so heres my try.. it dont really fit in the tub so im just using wet towels to keep it from dryin to soon. the bare spots will be cover in silicon/coco and this is only the first coat
Danny


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## melas

dannyces said:


> ok so heres my try.. it dont really fit in the tub so im just using wet towels to keep it from dryin to soon. the bare spots will be cover in silicon/coco and this is only the first coat
> Danny


Danny, that looks really cool! Is this going to be a waterfall type feature? What's going on with the tank? Is that custom build? Any pics of the whole thing? So you are putting the cement directly onto the great stuff? How is that working for you?

Matt


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## dannyces

hey thanks, i should tell you that my wife hates you she thinks this is all your fault
just kidding (kinda)
so yes this will be a water fall from a pool half way up the right side
yes this is a custom built tank it is plywood lined with glass
and i am putting the cement on syrofoam not sprayfoam 
i have posted a construction thread but i dont know how to put the link on here but im sure you can find and i would love to hear your input
Thanks Danny


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## melas

dannyces said:


> hey thanks, i should tell you that my wife hates you she thinks this is all your fault
> just kidding (kinda)
> so yes this will be a water fall from a pool half way up the right side
> yes this is a custom built tank it is plywood lined with glass
> and i am putting the cement on syrofoam not sprayfoam
> i have posted a construction thread but i dont know how to put the link on here but im sure you can find and i would love to hear your input
> Thanks Danny


Haha! I'm willing to be the scape goat - as long as she doesn't drive down from New York and hurt me (I bruise easy)! I'd actually like to deflect the blame on to aerialelf - he's the one that I learned from! Haha! 

Okay so I think I remember seeing a thread where you were asking about lining a tank with glass. You get it really cheap/free right? I found your construction thread - very cool! 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/37459-first-try-lots-pics.html

To post a link all you need to do is paste it into your post - the board will parse out the links on it's own!


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## dannyces

yeah that was me i do custom picture framing and stained glass for a living although not be it a very good one so i get all the 1/8" glass i could ever need im sure epoxy would have been easier but the glass was free and i enjoy the work now if only the rest was free anyway sorry to get off track....
i do have one question ive been keeping it wet by soaking it down and then coving it with wet towels is there a general rule of thumb as to how long i should keep it wet??? i seen people do it anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks its been about 3 days and i wanna get back to work 
Thanks for the comments and all the help
Danny


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## melas

dannyces said:


> yeah that was me i do custom picture framing and stained glass for a living although not be it a very good one so i get all the 1/8" glass i could ever need im sure epoxy would have been easier but the glass was free and i enjoy the work now if only the rest was free anyway sorry to get off track....
> i do have one question ive been keeping it wet by soaking it down and then coving it with wet towels is there a general rule of thumb as to how long i should keep it wet??? i seen people do it anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 weeks its been about 3 days and i wanna get back to work
> Thanks for the comments and all the help
> Danny


I let mine soak for at least 3 days between layers - that's just so that it has time to get hard enough that I don't crack or chip it while working it. If you want to do a second coat of cement I'd say go for it. Just cover back up with the towels once the cement firms up a bit on the second coat. Now the final soaking is the one that takes a while as that's the one where the pH is fully neutralized etc. Good luck!


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## dannyces

great thanks. so how long would you say the final soak should be? oh when is the "zoo" gonna be done
Danny


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## melas

dannyces said:


> great thanks. so how long would you say the final soak should be? oh when is the "zoo" gonna be done
> Danny


As long as it takes to get the pH of the cement stabilized around 7.0.  - I've been doing about 2 weeks with heavy use of white vinegar and a pump with frequent water changes (every 4 days or so). 

I really don't have a set date for completing the "zoo". I'm just working on it when I have time and money! haha!


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## dannyces

ok about two weeks i can deal with that....do you use like a 50/50 mix vinegar and water or just do it by eye
Thanks again for the help
Danny


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## melas

dannyces said:


> ok about two weeks i can deal with that....do you use like a 50/50 mix vinegar and water or just do it by eye
> Thanks again for the help
> Danny


I just dump a bunch in - I don't think I'm anywhere close to 50/50 though - maybe more like 10-20% vinegar. Be careful as the vinegar will actually "melt" the cement if it hasn't cured yet. So let the cement soak for a few days after the last coat before adding the vinegar.


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## melas

Okay folks - it's DONE! 

Some of the plants - ET Fern, Alley Cat Brom, Sarah Head Brom, Mo' Pepper Please Brom, Seleginia, Pepperomia, Java Moss, Salvinia, Korean Rock Fern, Tilandsia sp., etc

Thanks to Mike (AquaMac), Antone (Spring Valley Tropicals), and Devanny for all of the awesome plants! Enjoy!


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## Devanny

It turned out amazing!, I love it.
That last brom I gave you really added some good color. You should drape the kyoto on the rocks.


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## jubjub47

Will the kyoto grow on the rockwall? I assumed it needed some substrate.


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## iridebmx

i am going to try this out! i love the end result. im thinking of doing a big corner viv and i really want to incorporate as much as posible with the most realistic look i can get. so i have subscribed to every one of your rock wall threads and a few others...........................thaNKS FOR THE STEP BY STEP


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## melas

Devanny said:


> It turned out amazing!, I love it.
> That last brom I gave you really added some good color. You should drape the kyoto on the rocks.


Yeah that one you gave me and the sara head (lower left "big" brom) are my favorites! It's funny because I just got that one from you last night - haha! So do you think they Kyoto will do well on the wall? I put it in my "green house" tank (plants only tank) and I'm still trying to learn more about the stuff before I move it. 

Also, Keith (Kawickstrom) is hooking me up with a bunch of Riccia - so that will be going in soon too.


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## melas

iridebmx said:


> i am going to try this out! i love the end result. im thinking of doing a big corner viv and i really want to incorporate as much as posible with the most realistic look i can get. so i have subscribed to every one of your rock wall threads and a few others...........................thaNKS FOR THE STEP BY STEP


Thank you! I'm anxious to see your build as well!


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## iridebmx

i should have specified on the big corner tank though i have a wood burning stove in the corner where the viv will be built and it will not be moved untill i do my add on so it may be a few years  so dont hold your breath ! 

but i am going to test it out with a 10gal i have extra which i will most likely sell (i hate tiny tanks)


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## Devanny

Yes since I grew it from a "soup" it will work on the rocks. As long as it has a thin layer of substrate it will do fine.
Im testing a new method of growing the kyoto, it should be easier than the instructions in the package.




jubjub47 said:


> Will the kyoto grow on the rockwall? I assumed it needed some substrate.


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## Julio

came out great Matt!!


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## weta

that background looks so good that it seems like a shame to put plants in front of it..


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## melas

weta said:


> that background looks so good that it seems like a shame to put plants in front of it..


haha! yeah it certainly does! I think I showed tremendous restraint compared to the last one! haha!


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## divingne1

That came out really nice. Did you build the rock wall inside of the tank or build it on the egg crate outside the tank and then just fit it in when it was done?


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## melas

divingne1 said:


> That came out really nice. Did you build the rock wall inside of the tank or build it on the egg crate outside the tank and then just fit it in when it was done?


Thanks! Yeah I did it outside. It was definitely easier that way but more limiting to the design. My previous rock wall incorporated 4 sides of the terrarium - something that would be incredibly difficult without sculpting it in situ.


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## melas

Something else I forgot to mention - I ended up not using that little pump. I upgraded to a Aquaclear Powerhead. I just wasn't getting enough flow at that head from the other pump. It's all good now though!


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## roxrgneiss

Great work, Matt! You're getting pretty good at this.  I really like how you made this rock wall and it's displayed nicely in that tank too.  

Cheers,
Mike


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## melas

roxrgneiss said:


> Great work, Matt! You're getting pretty good at this.  I really like how you made this rock wall and it's displayed nicely in that tank too.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mike


Haha! Thanks Mike! So when are you unveiling the "buttress"? Did I miss it?


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## roxrgneiss

melas said:


> Haha! Thanks Mike! So when are you unveiling the "buttress"? Did I miss it?


 (sheepish grin) I had to put it on a winter hiatus... However, I just picked up some acrylic paint and some clear matte finish paint sealer I'd like to try, so hopefully I'll get it done over the next couple months.  If I could do work like yourself, quickly and with good detail, I might go into the background business!  haha I can swing the detail part, just not the quickness. Anyway, great work man, I always look forward to your journals. 

Later,
Mike


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## melas

roxrgneiss said:


> (sheepish grin) I had to put it on a winter hiatus... However, I just picked up some acrylic paint and some clear matte finish paint sealer I'd like to try, so hopefully I'll get it done over the next couple months.  If I could do work like yourself, quickly and with good detail, I might go into the background business!  haha I can swing the detail part, just not the quickness. Anyway, great work man, I always look forward to your journals.
> 
> Later,
> Mike


Haha! An artificial buttress sabbatical of sorts? I really don't feel like mine go fast - I'm just very goal oriented and it drives me nuts to have something unfinished! I actually set up a sweet "rock wall" table that I built (it holds up to 3.5" of water) and have it placed in such a way that I can watch tv while I work! Haha! That definitely helped keep me on task! 

PS - We missed seeing you at the last MADS meeting!


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## false_ideals

Very nice wall. This may be a stupid question, but I haven't seen the answer in any of the rock wall threads I've read through, but how do you know when the concrete has reached a neutral PH of 7? Is there a way to test it like you test water?


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## boogsawaste

false_ideals said:


> Very nice wall. This may be a stupid question, but I haven't seen the answer in any of the rock wall threads I've read through, but how do you know when the concrete has reached a neutral PH of 7? Is there a way to test it like you test water?


Just get a cheap fish tank or swimming pool test.

BTW, the tank looks AWESOME! I really have to try and build one of these.


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## melas

Yeah I just put it in a small amount of water and let it soak for a few days and then test the water with a tropical fish pH kit. Thanks for the compliments guys!


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## Kadina

Aww, I read through this whole thread and the final pictures on page nine are broken links. The construction pic were inspiring but I would love to see the finished product!


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## Dragas

Interesting, I can still see all the photo's.


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## melas

Yeah I can still see them as well . . . they are hosted on my facebook page . . . maybe try it again with this link . . . let me know how you make out!

http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphoto...7_57636881164_669731164_1629975_3360314_n.jpg

If worse comes to worse I can email them to you or just post them up on my personal server (that's where the other photos that you COULD see are at).

Also, make sure you are logged in - I can't remember if it was this forum or not - but I remember somewhere that you had to be logged in or you would occasionally experience these kinds of problems . . .


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## jelly_shrimp

I posted this on one of our other walls just now, but then I realized th last post was in January.....

Could I make a "bridge" with this? So in other words have the back covered and at close to the left or right part of the back, make a long clump about 3in thick, and like 8in long come completely off the wall and connect to the side? Almost like a piece of artificial driftwood or an arc. Do you think that would work?? Because if so, I am definately getting some of that magical JUICE!!!!!! just go with it, don't argue... Also, could I make a PDF tank with just a normal aquarium (glass, and slightly modified at home) and lastly, does the exess concrete drippings have to be cleaned? And if so, how?


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## boogsawaste

jelly_shrimp said:


> I posted this on one of our other walls just now, but then I realized th last post was in January.....
> 
> Could I make a "bridge" with this? So in other words have the back covered and at close to the left or right part of the back, make a long clump about 3in thick, and like 8in long come completely off the wall and connect to the side? Almost like a piece of artificial driftwood or an arc. Do you think that would work?? Because if so, I am definately getting some of that magical JUICE!!!!!! just go with it, don't argue... Also, could I make a PDF tank with just a normal aquarium (glass, and slightly modified at home) and lastly, does the exess concrete drippings have to be cleaned? And if so, how?


I don't see how that wouldn't work. Just frame it out with styrofoam and cover it the same way.


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## melas

jelly_shrimp said:


> I posted this on one of our other walls just now, but then I realized th last post was in January.....
> 
> Could I make a "bridge" with this? So in other words have the back covered and at close to the left or right part of the back, make a long clump about 3in thick, and like 8in long come completely off the wall and connect to the side? Almost like a piece of artificial driftwood or an arc. Do you think that would work?? Because if so, I am definately getting some of that magical JUICE!!!!!! just go with it, don't argue... Also, could I make a PDF tank with just a normal aquarium (glass, and slightly modified at home) and lastly, does the exess concrete drippings have to be cleaned? And if so, how?


Yep that'll work fine. You might want to reinforce it with something if you are planning a "large" span. Maybe a dowel rod or something. As far as using aquariums - they work fine. My first rockwall tank was a 30 gallon tall. The exoterras are nice because the front opening doors are nice for easy maintenance and they also make the initial building much easier as well.


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## markbudde

Did you glue this to the back wall?


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## melas

No - I was going to use industrial velcro but it ended up being such a snug fit that I didn't need to use anything. I used beaked moss to wedge in the sides to prevent frogs from getting stuck along the sides.


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## thetattooedone

This tank is bad A$$! Turned out great.

Brent


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## maxdendros

I love the broms and the rock wall... Dang it I love everything about it!!!


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## dart8888

Nice!
I have some questions.

If the pump is broken, is there a way to replace?
And how did you glue the back panel to the tank?


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## JoshsDragonz

The last post on this thread was 4 years ago.. Not sure if you will get an answer...


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## frogparty

It's...NECROMANCY!!!!!


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## melas

dart8888 said:


> Nice!
> I have some questions.
> 
> If the pump is broken, is there a way to replace?
> And how did you glue the back panel to the tank?


The pump is just placed in the "shaft" on the left of the tank. I built a rock lid for the top so that animals/feeders don't find there way down there. It would just be a matter of pulling up on the power cord to remove it. Gravity is the only thing holding the pump in place.

I didn't glue the panel to the tank. My plan was to use velcro but it fit so snugly that I didn't need to use anything. The idea was that this could be removed if needed.


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## dart8888

Very good idea.

By the way,
You posted this 2009.
Is the concrete methods is out dated for now?
I think tilebond3 methods is easier to do.

What is your best BG methods?


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## melas

I know many other methods have been developed since then. All I can say is that all of my rock wall tanks have held up without issue to date. I prefer concrete and other than the great stuff backgrounds I really haven't messed with much else. Good luck!


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