# Sticky frogs



## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

Is anyone familiar with a surface that frogs cannot climb on or stick to at all? I'm reluctant to use any sort of coating that might come off on the frogs, but if you know of anything at all please do let me know.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

The only things I can think of are running water and petroleum-based products, both of which may harm darts. What's the need?


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

We're trying to do a Morris water maze, but they just climb up the sides....


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

A dome-like structure might actually serve to keep them from climbing...but otherwise I see no possibilities.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

LaSelva said:


> We're trying to do a Morris water maze, but they just climb up the sides....


Uhh... Why?


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Just when I thought I had seen it all, there's this...


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

@why-this is an amphibian communication and neurology lab. There are other tests, but the water maze is something of a standard. I don't have confidence in it working because of the climbing, and because I worry about the stress from them trying to climb and repeatedly failing; however, it would be silly not to see about advice from the very experienced frog people on this board....


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## Darthalo (Nov 1, 2007)

People have used Astro Turf to keep octopus from climbing out of their tanks. I have never tried this (I kept a lid on mine) but I have been told it works.
I have no Idea if it would work for frogs, or not.
Good luck!
Keith.


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

To reply more completely, the main research is with mate choice in tungara frogs. Tungara frogs pick mates based on their songs, which differ significantly in a number of ways. The Morris water maze is a quantifiable way of measuring an animal's ability to learn and recognize something it has seen before. It is essentially a bucket of water with a platform just below the surface of the water. Learning can be quantified based on how quickly an animal finds the platform again after finding it for the first time.
So, the previous use of the test in this research was to compare female frogs' mate preference to their objective learning ability in the context of how mate preference is determined (familiarity, genetics, pure tone, length). Dart frogs are obviously interesting as a study organism because of their parental care and the complex mate choice interactions, especially as they vary across closely related species. Dart frogs, however, are much stickier than tungara frogs.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Surely you've researched enough to know that darts aren't great swimmers, right?


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

I have seen a few treefrogs have alot of trouble with hanging onto a screenprinted logo on a shirt, but I dont think that will help you


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

btcope said:


> Surely you've researched enough to know that darts aren't great swimmers, right?


Distance from any point in the bucket to the platform is about 4 inches, and since the whole point is to observe the frogs closely, there is little risk. Not to worry! And I will look into screen printing ink--if it's not toxic to frogs I could very well use some of the ink to paint the sides of the container. Thanks for that!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

btcope said:


> Surely you've researched enough to know that darts aren't great swimmers, right?


Is the tungara frog a dart frog? Maybe I missed it, but that really doesn't ring a bell....


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

Sorry if I wasn't clear--main research is with tungara species from Central America, which are not remotely dart frogs. They are a commonly used model organism. The choice to expand the research to dart frogs was because of their unique behaviors.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm no frog police captain, but I feel like making a citizen's arrest on this one. Not to be a jerk or flame you in any way, but this bothers me. These are sensitive animals that are prone to death from stressful environments. Most people here won't even venture as far as to handle their darts unless its absolutely necessary. So you telling me that the little guys will only have to struggle for a few inches w/ you carefully observing them doesn't make me feel much better about it. The fact that your reason for posting is to develop a method to prevent them from escaping your test setup shows that you're trying to force an animal who's obviously not suited for an experiment into playing along. 

A 30 second google search results in a wikipedia article that instantly makes mention to the advantage of using rats in this test because they are "natural swimmers" and that using mice requires efforts to minimize stress on the animals. (ref: Morris water navigation task - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) 

Invoking panic and struggle for survival in an animal that is prone to stress related death is just cruel.

I suggest you design a different experiment research spatial learning in dart frogs. perhaps you can hide a "treat" of some food items behind a barrier with a visual cue on it instead. I believe that your research is valuable and interesting, but the methods have a lot of room for improvement.

Respectfully,
Brett


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## qiksilver5 (Jan 9, 2007)

Something tells me you'd be appalled at the things we were required to do to frogs in some of the higher level biology classes...



btcope said:


> I'm no frog police captain, but I feel like making a citizen's arrest on this one. Not to be a jerk or flame you in any way, but this bothers me. These are sensitive animals that are prone to death from stressful environments. Most people here won't even venture as far as to handle their darts unless its absolutely necessary. So you telling me that the little guys will only have to struggle for a few inches w/ you carefully observing them doesn't make me feel much better about it. The fact that your reason for posting is to develop a method to prevent them from escaping your test setup shows that you're trying to force an animal who's obviously not suited for an experiment into playing along.
> 
> A 30 second google search results in a wikipedia article that instantly makes mention to the advantage of using rats in this test because they are "natural swimmers" and that using mice requires efforts to minimize stress on the animals. (ref: Morris water navigation task - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
> 
> ...


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Hey Brett, 

See the description below---it isn't dart frogs that are being used. 



LaSelva said:


> *Sorry if I wasn't clear--main research is with tungara species from Central America, which are not remotely dart frogs.* They are a commonly used model organism. The choice to expand the research to dart frogs was because of their unique behaviors.





btcope said:


> Invoking panic and struggle for survival in an animal that is prone to stress related death is just cruel.
> 
> I suggest you design a different experiment research spatial learning in dart frogs. perhaps you can hide a "treat" of some food items behind a barrier with a visual cue on it instead. I believe that your research is valuable and interesting, but the methods have a lot of room for improvement.
> 
> ...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

earthfrog said:


> Hey Brett,
> 
> See the description below---it isn't dart frogs that are being used.


Earthfrog, read the last sentence:



> Sorry if I wasn't clear--main research is with tungara species from Central America, which are not remotely dart frogs. They are a commonly used model organism. *The choice to expand the research to dart frogs was because of their unique behaviors.*


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

LaSelva said:


> Sorry if I wasn't clear--main research is with tungara species from Central America, which are not remotely dart frogs. They are a commonly used model organism. The choice to expand the research to dart frogs was because of their unique behaviors.


I was thinking about this a bit last night and I think you best bet is to modify the test chamber as the frogs are going to be able to get adhesion with virtally any straight up and down surface. If you modified the test chamber to slant inwards starting below the water surface the frog's won't be able to gain the surface to surface contact needed to climb out of the water. You'll need a sufficient angle that the frog will have difficulty making contact with the ventral surface of the abdomen as at that point, they won't be able to adhere to the surface. If you are using 5 gallon buckets, a tuncated cone with enough of a opening to introduce the frog is probably going to be the best bet. 

Interesting test run given that a lot of ranids orient on "shore" areas by rembering where the shore was by thier orientation with respect to the sun. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

btcope said:


> These are sensitive animals that are prone to death from stressful environments. Most people here won't even venture as far as to handle their darts unless its absolutely necessary.


 
Overall, dendrobatids are pretty hardy frogs... the commonly percieved sensitivity is really only restricted to a few species and in at least a few of those cases could very well be due to something we are doing with thier husbandry... 

A lot of the sensitivity "rules" arose around attempts to stabilize wild caught frogs that were in very poor condition due to the handling before, during and after importation... 

Overall dendrobatids are not as sensitive as people make them out to be.. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

frogface said:


> Earthfrog, read the last sentence:


sorry, I was tired and my mind was elsewhere based on recent events...

I am thinking that animals which are less endangered and prone to death from stress would be a better pick as well.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

Sorry for the rant. It just seems like torture to me. Making an animal struggle to survive is much worse than killing it for research in my opinion. 

Ed, you say we are oversensitive about stress on them, but haven't you seen large hardy frogs like tincs "freak out" from small events like switching tanks? I keep thinking back to the time I gently tapped a container to get an azureus to hop out and she went into seizures. I suppose this could have been caused by a number of other factors like a calcium deficiency due to older supplements or some kind of husbandry problem, but it still seems like this event would be much more stressful than the one that caused my frog to seize. 

Like I said before, I value research as much as the next nerd, but I just think a test that is better suited for darts could be designed in this case.


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

I appreciate your reply. Unfortunately, I think that Wikipedia is somewhat confunding here about how the Morris test is useful. The Wikipedia article mentions that rats are not stressed simply by being placed in water but also happen to want to get to the platform; this makes them especially well suited to the test since most animals either are too relaxed and don't want to get out at all or want to get out because of the stress of being in the water. The point of the test, however, is not that the test itself be completed by just one well-suited animal, but that any animal of interest can be assessed with the test. The _usual_ understanding of the water maze is that its use automatically includes the appropriate modifications to allow the subject to attempt the task and not adopt some other behavior--as with mice getting hand time to keep them from floating, and of course keeping things from climbing up the sides. The test doesn't work unless there's only the one quantifiable way to get out, since we already know that the natural instinct in almost all animals is to swim to the side.
There are other tests, but I believe that most of them are less well suited to dart frogs than this one. Your main concern is for the frogs' welfare. I think there's a philosophical question at hand that's not appropriate for this forum, regarding the acceptability of causing any stress at all, dissection, etc. Regarding the current standards of academic research, there is huge emphasis on responsible treatment. The animal use protocols are developed with academic frog experts as well as staff veterinarians, and we are accountable for each animal. I'm in the process of developing these protocols for dart frogs now, which this thread is a part of. It also usually involves some mini-experiments to determine, for example, if frogs can climb the side of a bucket.... I have put a male and a female auratus from a breeding pair in the maze used for tungara frogs (which can swim but not climb)--they didn't find the platform because of the wall-climbing, but the whole experience did not disrupt their breeding at all, and their health seems as good as ever. So for whatever reason, it seems that the main problem at the moment is not yet reducing stress, but making the frogs do the experiment in the first place.
But most of all, I appreciate your politeness! I asked for input about this test, and got it.


btcope said:


> I'm no frog police captain, but I feel like making a citizen's arrest on this one. Not to be a jerk or flame you in any way, but this bothers me. These are sensitive animals that are prone to death from stressful environments. Most people here won't even venture as far as to handle their darts unless its absolutely necessary. So you telling me that the little guys will only have to struggle for a few inches w/ you carefully observing them doesn't make me feel much better about it. The fact that your reason for posting is to develop a method to prevent them from escaping your test setup shows that you're trying to force an animal who's obviously not suited for an experiment into playing along.
> 
> A 30 second google search results in a wikipedia article that instantly makes mention to the advantage of using rats in this test because they are "natural swimmers" and that using mice requires efforts to minimize stress on the animals. (ref: Morris water navigation task - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
> 
> ...


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't know what your setup looks like, but you could use temperature extremes to keep the frogs away from the walls. This is a much better option than any chemical means.

Either hot or cold would work. For example you could (somehow) heat the walls of your setup to a temperature that is too hot for the frogs to make contact with, ie. put them outside of their comfort range. Obviously you don't want your frogs jumping onto walls which are heated white hot, but a reasonable temperature which is uncomfortable for the frogs. It should be hot enough that it causes the frogs to immediately jump off the glass the instant they come into contact with it, yet not hot enough to cause harm. If you find the right temperature, a frog will only jump on the glass once and then it will learn to stay off the hot walls very quickly. Similarly, you could do this by making the walls cold enough so that the frogs do not want to contact them. You don't necessarily need liquid nitrogen (although this is where I would start because I am an extremely mad scientist!), but an isopropyl alcohol and dry ice mixture will turn to a cold gel with a temperature of -78C. You could perhaps treat the outside of your walls with this to cool them down prior to introduction of your amphibious subjects.

Or perhaps you could use a tactile deterrent to keep the frogs off the walls. For example, you could cover the walls with velcro or something that is "pokey". Anything that provides a sensation that frogs will hate. They will learn to avoid the walls, and again it eliminates any chemical means.

Or what about coupling temperature extremes with a tactile deterrent in some manner? Like I said, I don't know what your setup looks like or how exactly to apply my suggestions, but these are just some quick minute brainstorming ideas that I would start with.


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## LaSelva (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the input, Ed. I generally agree with you about the hardiness and the sometimes mistaken view of dart frogs as well. I _really_ don't want this to become a research ethics thread so I'm not going to comment on the 'struggle to survive' view. Regarding the 'endangered and fragile' though, you can see my other post about the health of just a couple frogs after being put into (but climbing out the side of) a water maze. The frogs we have are auratus either bought or that I've bred here from captive-bred frogs. The research does not affect wild populations.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

btcope said:


> Sorry for the rant. It just seems like torture to me. Making an animal struggle to survive is much worse than killing it for research in my opinion.
> 
> Ed, you say we are oversensitive about stress on them, but haven't you seen large hardy frogs like tincs "freak out" from small events like switching tanks? I keep thinking back to the time I gently tapped a container to get an azureus to hop out and she went into seizures. I suppose this could have been caused by a number of other factors like a calcium deficiency due to older supplements or some kind of husbandry problem, but it still seems like this event would be much more stressful than the one that caused my frog to seize.
> 
> Like I said before, I value research as much as the next nerd, but I just think a test that is better suited for darts could be designed in this case.


What you are describing is called tetany. There are several potential casuses of tetany but in situations such as you describe this is pretty much only associated with hypocalcemia. Insufficient calcium reserves cause the muscles to not funtion properly resulting in the seizures reported by people. If you have access I would suggest looking up tetany in the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. 

This can be caused by insufficient calcium, improper calcium to phosphorus ratio in the diet and/or insufficient D3 to allow for proper metabolization of the calcium. The causes (not meant to be a list of all possible causes) can range from improper or insuffient supplementation, increased metabolic usage of vitamins/minerals as compared to supplementation rate or even decreased consumption of dusted insects due to palatability issues and increased consumption of unsupplemented microfauna.... 

So yes, all of the most common casuses are a artifact of the husbandry of the animals....


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

What'sAGoonToAGoblin? said:


> I don't know what your setup looks like, but you could use temperature extremes to keep the frogs away from the walls. This is a much better option than any chemical means.
> 
> Either hot or cold would work. For example you could (somehow) heat the walls of your setup to a temperature that is too hot for the frogs to make contact with, ie. put them outside of their comfort range. Obviously you don't want your frogs jumping onto walls which are heated white hot, but a reasonable temperature which is uncomfortable for the frogs. It should be hot enough that it causes the frogs to immediately jump off the glass the instant they come into contact with it, yet not hot enough to cause harm. If you find the right temperature, a frog will only jump on the glass once and then it will learn to stay off the hot walls very quickly. Similarly, you could do this by making the walls cold enough so that the frogs do not want to contact them. You don't necessarily need liquid nitrogen (although this is where I would start because I am an extremely mad scientist!), but an isopropyl alcohol and dry ice mixture will turn to a cold gel with a temperature of -78C. You could perhaps treat the outside of your walls with this to cool them down prior to introduction of your amphibious subjects.
> 
> ...


Good ideas, but I would be cautious using deterrents that only work once they are learned by the subject animal to be unpleasant. Having to condition an animal how to act in the environment (ie not to jump on the walls) to suit your needs prior to running the experiment weakens the data. Finding that magical substance that makes it impossible to use the walls is the key


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

freaky_tah said:


> Finding that magical substance that makes it impossible to use the walls is the key


Agreed. That seems to be the million dollar question.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

LaSelva said:


> Thanks for the input, Ed.


 
Have you seen the papers regarding dendrobatids navigating a choice to return to a home range or locate a specific bromeliad? 

With the auratus, I still think modification of the maze may be your best bet. Unlike hylids (or other treefrogs) they shouldn't be able to support all of thier own weight on a smooth surface by toe adhesion alone. There is also the friction and suction that results from the contact of the ventral surface of the frog to the wall... if you can prevent that contact you should be able to prevent the frogs from being able to climb. 

Ed


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## freaky_tah (Jan 21, 2009)

What'sAGoonToAGoblin? said:


> Agreed. That seems to be the million dollar question.


I see a new research project in the making right here!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

What about vegetable oil?


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

frogface said:


> What about vegetable oil?


Extreme, but promising. I like it.


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

heating or cooling the walls would have that nasty byproduct of heating/cooling the water. frogpopsicles!

to the OP, please remember to share your research with us when you are finished! again, i apologize for taking the concerned pet owner role a little too far in this discussion. some of us just don't have the heart to be true scientists when it comes to our pets, but i believe we can all benefit greatly from the research that will ultimately teach us more about the animals. 

thanks for the info on tetany ed. i will definitely spend some time reading about it. the frog in question had just been moved out of a tank due to female-female aggression so she wasn't eating very much in the recent days. she has since recovered and appears to be healthy. i guess i was wrong in thinking that the seizure was stress induced. i'll be sure to re-check my supplements for the proper ingredients, but i rotate between a calcium and multivitamin supplement that contains D3 every other feeding.

-brett


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

btcope said:


> heating or cooling the walls would have that nasty byproduct of heating/cooling the water. frogpopsicles!


Yes, but obviously this would be avoided by designing the system so that the water is at a desired temperature to persuade the frog to remain in the water. The undesirable walls and the desirable water would need to be two discrete systems that work together to achieve the desired results.

But anyways, I was just spittin out some random snit to generate some ideas.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What'sAGoonToAGoblin? said:


> Yes, but obviously this would be avoided by designing the system so that the water is at a desired temperature to persuade the frog to remain in the water. The undesirable walls and the desirable water would need to be two discrete systems that work together to achieve the desired results.
> 
> But anyways, I was just spittin out some random snit to generate some ideas.


This would change the experiment and the results... you would be providing a negative stimulus to avoid the walls which would affect the ability to see if the frog's learned as they could simply have been avoiding the walls or microclimates that were unfavorable for them.. 

The methods has to be much more neutral so they can avoid negative stimuli that could case an imbalance in the testing procedure and results. 

Ed


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> This would change the experiment and the results... you would be providing a negative stimulus to avoid the walls which would affect the ability to see if the frog's learned as they could simply have been avoiding the walls or microclimates that were unfavorable for them..
> 
> The methods has to be much more neutral so they can avoid negative stimuli that could case an imbalance in the testing procedure and results.
> 
> Ed


Yes, exactly.


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