# Clay & ABG Mixed Substrate



## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

I've been reading all the clay substrate threads, and getting the ingredients together to try it out on a couple new pumilio verts. However, on a few other verts that will be thumbnails, I was contemplating trying a mixed substrate that included both clay, as well as an ABG-type mix. Has anyone attempted this? Anyone see any potential drawbacks in trying this out? 

Generally I use an eggcrate false-bottom, thin leca layer, then a substrate. All tanks will be drilled for drainage and hooked up to a misting system.

I'd appreciate any input, comments, and suggestions that anyone may have.

Thanks,

Pat


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## deboardfam (Feb 7, 2011)

I sort of have this by accident LOL. I redid my clay so many times I dropped quite a bit into my own version of the ABG mix. I have a brom in it doing pretty well. My shipment of plants come in this weekend so I wont know much until then.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

What I did for some of my lower budget tanks is mix in my clay kitty litter background recipe into some spare ABG mix I had left over. It has better microfauna populations than my plain ABG tanks, and my plants are doing just as well, if not better.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm in the process of doing this now. Basically adding into the basic ABG mix, calcium enriched clay nuggets/flakes.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The only benefit I can see to doing this would be get the calcium benefits of the clay, while trying to keep the benefits of how well plants do, in the ABG. I think the best way to do this is to do a primarily clay substrate. Then you scoop out a couple handfuls of clay and replace it with ABG mix wherever you intend to put a plant. Once it is planted, place a layer of clay over the ABG Mix.
To do it any other way, seems like a conflict of interests to me. Here's why. With a calcium enriched clay substrate, you are encouraging the frogs to ingest tiny bits of clay substrate so that they can digest the calcium. If your clay is just mixed up with ABG (or any other dirt type substrate for that matter), are you not also encouraging frogs to ingest the dirt. This presents a serious danger of impaction. Generally, many of us try to completely cover the dirt or ABG mix with leaf litter, etc. to prevent ingestion of dirt and impaction. With a clay substrate, the practice is to leave a clear area which will be our feeding area. This encourages ingestion of the clay.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the input.

Doug, I've read all the way through that clay thread, which was where I pulled this idea from. Like I said, in my pumilio tanks, I will be going with a clay substrate based on your recipe. However, my thinking in mixing the substrates was going to apply to tanks housing imitators, in which the parents wouldn't be raising the tads in-tank, nor would froglets be growing out in these tanks. I thought by mixing substrates, I could get maximum micro organism populations, with the benefits of higher calcium natural feeders (springs) from the clay. So essentially, in these imitator tanks, I would either be going with straight ABG or the ABG/clay mix. Do you think the benefits would be minimal with the mixed substrate based on the fact the frogs wouldn't be in direct contact with the clay?

Pat


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

That was my thinking/reasoning and what I'm planning on doing.

David



patm said:


> Thanks everyone, I appreciate the input.
> 
> Doug, I've read all the way through that clay thread, which was where I pulled this idea from. Like I said, in my pumilio tanks, I will be going with a clay substrate based on your recipe. However, my thinking in mixing the substrates was going to apply to tanks housing imitators, in which the parents wouldn't be raising the tads in-tank, nor would froglets be growing out in these tanks. I thought by mixing substrates, I could get maximum micro organism populations, with the benefits of higher calcium natural feeders (springs) from the clay. So essentially, in these imitator tanks, I would either be going with straight ABG or the ABG/clay mix. Do you think the benefits would be minimal with the mixed substrate based on the fact the frogs wouldn't be in direct contact with the clay?
> 
> Pat


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> With a calcium enriched clay substrate, you are encouraging the frogs to ingest tiny bits of clay substrate so that they can digest the calcium. If your clay is just mixed up with ABG (or any other dirt type substrate for that matter), are you not also encouraging frogs to ingest the dirt. This presents a serious danger of impaction. Generally, many of us try to completely cover the dirt or ABG mix with leaf litter, etc. to prevent ingestion of dirt and impaction. With a clay substrate, the practice is to leave a clear area which will be our feeding area.


Why is there an assumption that the frogs are not ingesting ABG mix (I apologize if that was not the intent)? 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

patm said:


> Thanks everyone, I appreciate the input.
> 
> Doug, I've read all the way through that clay thread, which was where I pulled this idea from. Like I said, in my pumilio tanks, I will be going with a clay substrate based on your recipe. However, my thinking in mixing the substrates was going to apply to tanks housing imitators, in which the parents wouldn't be raising the tads in-tank, nor would froglets be growing out in these tanks. I thought by mixing substrates, I could get maximum micro organism populations, with the benefits of higher calcium natural feeders (springs) from the clay. So essentially, in these imitator tanks, I would either be going with straight ABG or the ABG/clay mix. Do you think the benefits would be minimal with the mixed substrate based on the fact the frogs wouldn't be in direct contact with the clay?
> 
> Pat


For maximum benefit there should ideally be some contact with the clay. It is thought that the frogs can absorb some calcium directly through their skin, and also ingest small bits of clay while eating bugs. I couldn't really say how much benefit might still be had if all the clay/ABG mix was covered by leaf litter.



Ed said:


> Why is there an assumption that the frogs are not ingesting ABG mix (I apologize if that was not the intent)?
> 
> Ed


I have always read/been told that there is a danger of impaction if frogs are eating too much dirt. As such, I have always done my best to cover all of my ABG mix with leaf litter, moss, plants, smooth river rock, Ghost wood, and things like that to prevent frogs from ingesting dirt. I guess I just assumed that the OP would be covering the mix with leaf litter if ABG is exposed.

If the purpose is to not require as much clay substrate, I usually layer in an inch or so of Turface, before adding my clay. If the purpose is to keep the benefits of ABG mix, What about layering some ABG mix (with or without Turface first), followed by a layer of calcium enriched clay substrate??


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Long response... as it has to cover a number of points... 

There is a lot of concern about substrate ingeestion across taxa but with terristrial frog species, the ingestion occurs when the frog's capture prey items. So the amount ingested is what is stuck to the tongue of the frog, so regardless of the substrate, there is going to be some risk of impaction... but this ignores the underlying issues that often lead to impaction... such as (one example of several) insufficient calcium metabolism which reduces gut motility (this is why sufficient D3 is also important). 
In some respects, the attempt to prevent the frogs from ingesting substrate to prevent impaction is kind of a method to hide potential underlying conditons. 

There is going to be an ingestion of some material whenever the frog feeds on invertebrates particularly soil dwelling microfauna. This is going to occur even if the substrate is mainly covered as the microfauna is going to transport some particles with them (as well as slowly churning it, leaves breaking down into particulates..). If the frog is in good health, the risk of frog ingesting enough to impact it is very small... For some reason there is a lot of concern about this in the hobby but little concern about gastric overload (a different form of impaction) which can occur when the frogs' overeat (see Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry).. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Don't forget, as Ed was leading to, that some other causes of impaction are due to parasite overload or infection regardless of what is ingested.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I think that keeping a frog from ingesting soil is the same as keeping a cat from getting a hairball. This is something that happens and I don't think can be prevented. I am still learning about the clay movement. I am only nervous about that as I think the tank should be as organic as possible. The main reason is that it is not uncommon to see my frogs get something besides a fly during dinner time.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

OK, but it still seems that maximum benefit from the clay would be had be keeping it at the surface. Granted, bits of the clay can still be stuck to the microfauna, but some is bound to be brushed off, too, if the clay is buried. Plus, what about the benefits that will be missed from the frogs possibly absorbing some calcium right through their skin? I'm just saying it seems it would be used most effectively at the surface of your substrate.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> OK, but it still seems that maximum benefit from the clay would be had be keeping it at the surface. Granted, bits of the clay can still be stuck to the microfauna, but some is bound to be brushed off, too, if the clay is buried. Plus, what about the benefits that will be missed from the frogs possibly absorbing some calcium right through their skin? I'm just saying it seems it would be used most effectively at the surface of your substrate.


I agree the maximal benefit is going to occur if the clay is at the surface..

Ed


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Thanks for the clarification. Like I said, these particular tanks won't be tanks where froglets will be growing out, just seeing if a bit of the clay mixture would benefit adult thumbnails. Maybe I'll attempt to add patches around feeding areas, and see how it works out.

Thanks everyone,

Pat


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