# turface as viv substrate



## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

i was planning on just buying a big bag of it and using just that with some ABG around the roots of the plants. which kind of turface should i use? does it provide good enough drainage? Is all turface better or is it better with hydroton and abg?


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

I just set up a new viv with Turface Pro League. I think most people use MVP and not Pro League but the John Deere Landscapes was out of MVP.

The grain is a little smaller on the Pro League but the springs still seem to like it.

I personally would go with a false bottom with Turface. You could do Hydroton but that may lead to more wicking. I know Doug puts a handful of ABG around the plants in the substrate but I didn't with my allocasia, so we'll see how it does.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You will still want either a false bottom, or a LECA bottom with a screen divider. Turface by itself is going to wick too much moisture if it is in standing water. The All Sport Pro is the type you want. It has a particle size about the size of kitty litter.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh, yes, I choose to use a handful of ABG mix around the roots to give the plant a headstart but it's probably not really necessary if you make sure the Turface is fully hydrated and stays moist.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

which is better though, turface or abg?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Which is better, blue or green? 

For what purpose? 
Longevity? Turface. 
A quicker start for your plants? ABG. 
Pricewise? Turface? 
Straight out looks...as in looking more natural? ABG
Which one beats them both as being more natural, and better for your frogs? A home made, calcium based, clay substrate. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html
My own personal favorite choice? Homemade calcium based clay
Best for Pumilo and other Oophaga? Homemade calcium based clay


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I use turface with a false bottom and my own mix of substrate around the roots of the plants. As far as drainage goes I have misted pretty heavy at times and you can hear the water gurgling through the turface on it's way down to the water table. Once I found out about turface it is the only thing I use now plus it is cheap for a 50lb bag. I have also started mixing in a little bentonite calcium clay powder.....


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## DannyMeister (Sep 30, 2010)

I wish I could get turface more affordably. Shipping is a lot, and gas to the nearest John Deere Landscaping 130 miles away is even more.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

go to the turface website and select which state you're in and it gives you the list of vendors in your state


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html




can i make a clay background using the exact same mixture as the substrate link, or does it need to be modified?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

goof901 said:


> can i make a clay background using the exact same mixture as the substrate link, or does it need to be modified?


Skip the sugar and cornstarch. If you use a high quality sphagnum, run through a blender, instead of peat or coco, it may encourage some moss growth.
It could be used exactly the same, too.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

Pumilo said:


> Skip the sugar and cornstarch. If you use a high quality sphagnum, run through a blender, instead of peat or coco, it may encourage some moss growth.
> It could be used exactly the same, too.


Keep in mind that putting sphagnum through a blender could aerosolize fungal spores and other nasties in the sphagnum. I think Ed has a story of someone who ended up with a pretty nasty respiratory infection.

Also, I believe you can get some naturally sprouting ferns and mosses with peat as well? I know it takes a long time from what I've heard though.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Doug, any experience or thoughts about combining the two for a super-substrate (abg+turface)?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

parkanz2 said:


> Keep in mind that putting sphagnum through a blender could aerosolize fungal spores and other nasties in the sphagnum. I think Ed has a story of someone who ended up with a pretty nasty respiratory infection.


Other than a coworker ending up with some obscure mold growing in her sinus, there is a real disease risk.. look up cutaneous sporotrichosis. 



parkanz2 said:


> Also, I believe you can get some naturally sprouting ferns and mosses with peat as well? I know it takes a long time from what I've heard though.


The amount of time depends on the humidity and the level of light when getting mosses to germinate from peat moss. If you have good conditions, you should see mosses starting to grow within about 30-45 days. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> Doug, any experience or thoughts about combining the two for a super-substrate (abg+turface)?


 
Why do you think it would be a "super substrate"? 

Ed


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Sorry Ed, my lame attempt at humor, but I was considering including turface in my abg mix, any thoughts?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Has anyone actually come up with any sort of mixes that include the turface? What do you think we could add to it that would be beneficial and for what reasons?


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Newengland herpeculture will add turf ace to their abg mix.


Sean


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Damn auto correct.


Sean


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

Ed said:


> Other than a coworker ending up with some obscure mold growing in her sinus, there is a real disease risk.. look up cutaneous sporotrichosis.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


regarding the disease risk, would there still be a risk if i chopped it up using a knife? what if i microwaved the sphagnum before that, maybe kill the mold?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Other than a coworker ending up with some obscure mold growing in her sinus, there is a real disease risk.. look up cutaneous sporotrichosis.
> Ed


Lovely. Nasty stuff.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> The All Sport Pro is the type you want. It has a particle size about the size of kitty litter.


Where do you see this one? I can only find the MVP and the Pro League. This stuff is seriously hard to get a hold of, you would think they would want to widen their distribution area to make it more accessible for customers. I can't find it on-line anywhere except one place, and they don't have the choice of colors. I want the red color to mimic the red soil look of the amazon.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tachikoma said:


> Where do you see this one? I can only find the MVP and the Pro League. This stuff is seriously hard to get a hold of, you would think they would want to widen their distribution area to make it more accessible for customers. I can't find it on-line anywhere except one place, and they don't have the choice of colors. I want the red color to mimic the red soil look of the amazon.


I get mine at a local John Deere Landscaper supply. It is not red though. The one I use is tan. Looks like this. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me.../79299-our-green-sirensis-viv.html#post701787


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> I get mine at a local John Deere Landscaper supply. It is not red though. The one I use is tan. Looks like this. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me.../79299-our-green-sirensis-viv.html#post701787


Thanks for the info, apparently the closest one to me is almost 40 miles away.  I will keep searching, I wonder if Osh carries it. I'll call them and see.


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

I had to drive about that far for mine as well. I ended up with the Pro League Red because it's all they had. Slightly smaller grain size from what I can tell but I like the color and my springs still crawl around in it and seem to enjoy it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

goof901 said:


> regarding the disease risk, would there still be a risk if i chopped it up using a knife? what if i microwaved the sphagnum before that, maybe kill the mold?


Just use sphagnum peat moss instead of sphagnum moss.. The main risk is from the sphagnum moss. 

If you use peat moss and mix it 50/50 with silica sand (some playground sands for example) and place that in bright indirect light and it is kept moist with high humidity, you will rapidly see growth my mosses.. Do not microwave or heat treat the peat since that reduces the variety that can emerge. 
Alternately take some tree fern panels and either break them up and embed them in the peat sand mixture (with the surface showing) and keep them moist in bright light or soak them and keep them damp as they will grow a variety of mosses as well some ferns (I've had treeferns emerge from them when treated this way). 

In both methods bright light, moisture and high humidity are the requirements. 

Ed


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> Just use sphagnum peat moss instead of sphagnum moss.. The main risk is from the sphagnum moss.
> 
> If you use peat moss and mix it 50/50 with silica sand (some playground sands for example) and place that in bright indirect light and it is kept moist with high humidity, you will rapidly see growth my mosses.. Do not microwave or heat treat the peat since that reduces the variety that can emerge.
> Alternately take some tree fern panels and either break them up and embed them in the peat sand mixture (with the surface showing) and keep them moist in bright light or soak them and keep them damp as they will grow a variety of mosses as well some ferns (I've had treeferns emerge from them when treated this way).
> ...


To help reinforce your advice, it appears the same method is used to restore peat bogs. 
Restoring Peat Bogs.


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## Dizzle21 (Aug 11, 2009)

parkanz2 said:


> I had to drive about that far for mine as well. I ended up with the Pro League Red because it's all they had. Slightly smaller grain size from what I can tell but I like the color and my springs still crawl around in it and seem to enjoy it.


I Just picked up 4 bags, 2 of the red and 2 field and faraway. Little smaller grain but $1 for a 50lb bag is a steal! If any of my San Diego froggers need some turface hit me up!


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> Just use sphagnum peat moss instead of sphagnum moss.. The main risk is from the sphagnum moss.


I'm confused by this. Peat moss = Sphagnum moss


I really need to find some turface near my, I wanna give it a shot.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

thedude said:


> I'm confused by this. Peat moss = Sphagnum moss
> 
> 
> I really need to find some turface near my, I wanna give it a shot.


Sphagnum is long fibered sphagnum, like the first picture. Peat is more dirt like and is partially decomposed sphagnum. Second picture.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Sphagnum is long fibered sphagnum, like the first picture. Peat is more dirt like and is partially decomposed sphagnum. Second picture.


I know what they both are, but peat isn't peat MOSS, it's just peat, a type of soil. It's made up of poorly decomposed sphagnum moss, but it isn't moss. It's a pet peeve of mine when people say there is a difference between peat moss and sphagnum moss  They are the same thing. sphagnum moss and peat however, are different.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

can anyone elaborate on their experiences of using turface in their abg mix? Any opinions on wheter this is a good idea, or any potential downsides?


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

cbreon said:


> can anyone elaborate on their experiences of using turface in their abg mix? Any opinions on wheter this is a good idea, or any potential downsides?


I'm confused about why you want to mix them homogenously?

If you do that, eventually the ABG will decay so you'll have just turface at that point or you'll have mix in more ABG and disrupt the tank. Some people use it just around the base of their plants to give them a jump start but I think once the tank is established most of the organic "food" for the plants comes from the frogs.

Is it to promote drainage? I was always under the impression that ABG did that well enough on its own but I don't have any experience with it.

Just a few of my thoughts. If you had other reasons for thinking about mixing them, let us know.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

parkanz2 said:


> I'm confused about why you want to mix them homogenously?
> 
> If you do that, eventually the ABG will decay so you'll have just turface at that point or you'll have mix in more ABG and disrupt the tank. Some people use it just around the base of their plants to give them a jump start but I think once the tank is established most of the organic "food" for the plants comes from the frogs.
> 
> ...


I am not sure about the abg breaking down that significantly that I would have to replace it. I have several older tanks with ABG that are 5+ years old, 1 tank with an abg that is 10 years old. I regularly add new leaf litter on top of the abg which helps to replace the abg as it degrades. All my tanks have false bottoms so the soil isn't constantly soaked and has good drainage which obviously helps the abg and prevents it from rotting. All that combined with diversified microfauna seems to work well for me, but I am always looking to improve the mix and that is why I am considering adding turface to my abg. But I am looking for some discussion on it and trying to determine if anyone has experience with the combination of abg and turface and if anyone can think of any negatives, I appreciate your points, thanks

any other thoughts on the combination of abg and turface?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> nd if anyone can think of any negatives, I appreciate your points, thanks
> 
> any other thoughts on the combination of abg and turface?


Yes.. right off the bat you are going to limit the availability of free calcium in the system as the materials in the ABG and leaf litter are going to prevent free calcium availability... 

The region of the greatest microfaunal productivity is the area where the leaves contact the mineralized soils. Mixing it removes this function. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> I know what they both are, but peat isn't peat MOSS, it's just peat, a type of soil. It's made up of poorly decomposed sphagnum moss, but it isn't moss. It's a pet peeve of mine when people say there is a difference between peat moss and sphagnum moss  They are the same thing. sphagnum moss and peat however, are different.


This is a similar situation to the phrase "gut loading" which under the technical definition refers solely to the attempt to adjust the calcium to phosphorus ratio in the invertebrate consuming the diet, however the common usage is that it refers to any attempt to modify the overal nutrition of the targeted invertebrate. The common usages in the USA refers to "sphagnum moss" which means the long fiber moss and/or the milled sphagnum used in germinating seeds while "peat moss" (or as commonly labeled by the industry) is a manufactured product that is sold as "sphagnum peat moss" hence the reason I made the distinction in my post. 
Peat moss is much less likely to harbor the spores for cutaneous sporotrichosis. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Although the harvest of true peat is not an environmentally sound practice, from what I've read.

Jake


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

jacobi said:


> Although the harvest of true peat is not an environmentally sound practice, from what I've read.
> 
> Jake


Ya I won't use it. It takes decades for true peat to form. Sometimes MUCH LONGER.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> Ya I won't use it. It takes decades for true peat to form. Sometimes MUCH LONGER.


I've been using the same bag for the last ten years... It doesn't take a lot to get some good moss plugs going (or pot up my carnivorous plants)... 

Ed


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## Dartolution (May 30, 2011)

Ed what carnivores are you growing? 
I'm growing three varieties of Venus, and 4 sarracenia species.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> I've been using the same bag for the last ten years... It doesn't take a lot to get some good moss plugs going (or pot up my carnivorous plants)...
> 
> Ed


That's good, but it still took a very long time for that peat to form, and the processes they use to harvest it aren't exactly the best. I'd rather not aid in wetland degradation if I don't have to.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dartolution said:


> Ed what carnivores are you growing?
> I'm growing three varieties of Venus, and 4 sarracenia species.


Utricularia menziesii
Utricularia longifolia (small leaf)
Utricularia sandersonii (blue flower)
Utricularia bisquamata
Pinguicula primafolia
Pinguicula "Titan"
Pinguicula primuliflora

I also have a Utricularia that was identified as U. uniflora "blue" that I got from Ecuagenera that is clearly not uniflora and may be a form of U. alpina (it does produce a lot of flowers). 

I also have some Sarracenia seeds I haven't planted yet since I need to get my bog put in first (Sarracenia leucophyllata, Sarracenia p. purpurea)..

I've grown a lot of other cps over the years and am slowly getting my collection back together. 

Ed


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