# new WC golden mantella questions



## zookeeper (May 25, 2008)

I just got a pair, based on size, of WC golden mantellas, its very rare to see them for sale here so i could not realy pass up the chance to get them, I would have gotten more but two is all i could aford at the time, but even though i have whanted to get mantellas for a wile these are my first, 

right now there in a 16"X11"X6" plastic container on damp white paper towels with an upside down plant saucer with holes cut into it for hideing some fake plants and a shallow jar lid of water, they ate some mel ffs the other day and theres still afew in the container my questions are

do i have much chance of breeding with just a pair, i was thinking of houseing them in a 5-10g with a small pond and streem as it seems its helpfull for breeding, but would my chances be a bit bettter with another male?

they seem active and healthy enough,so should i try and get them into the tank as soon as i can, or do they usualy come loaded with parasites and need to be treated? and if so whats the best way to get a fecal from something so small?

is there any way to help cool there viv, like a solid glass top and a fan blowing on it? my house gets hotter than i though and right i have them on the kitchen floor were its 71-73, but its only a tempory solution, i guess i might have to save up and get an AC


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

dont put them in a 5...thats to small. Groups are better for breeding, but u have a chance of breeding with a pair. Fecals can be taken from the paper towel and shipped off to dr frye or someone...you can treat with pancur. you should msg rich frye or his brother about that stuff. Its standard practice to quaranteen new frogs for 30 days.


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## zookeeper (May 25, 2008)

thanks i will go for a 10g then i just thought sence i only have pair a 5g might work,

I should mention that iam in canada so would talking to mister Rich frye be helpfull to me, as i cant realy send him fecals.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Talking to him might as he or his brother who is the actual VET could advise you far better then I. They could also likely point you in the direction of a good vet there....or perhaps the guys at understory or canadart could.


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## zookeeper (May 25, 2008)

i was thinking of contacting understory as the shop that had these said the shipment that came into canada was split between them and understory, 

also i have been watching them the last few days and not trying to scare them, as there on the floor to keep them cool, and they arent hideing as much as i thought they would be the female is sitting in the front quite a bit right in the open, and the male seems to kind of fallow her, or is trying to climb out, is this normal? i whanted to keep the QT simply but should i add some leaf litter or coco huts?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ya understory would be good. 

They sound fine. My group was pretty bold usually,but I would put some form of cover in the tank for them, huts and/or leaves like you mentioned as long as they are clean. 

A 10% bleach solution can be used to clean them, then rinse them very well. QT is just to keep frogs that might be sick from contaminating your tanks or other animals. You don't have to provide them with a completely sterile and/or barren environment.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

Dendro Dave said:


> dont put them in a 5...thats to small.


Wouldn't say so, have a group of 2.3 crocea in a 5 gallon and they laid 3 (only one good) clutches last year and one of the females looks to be gravid currently. So long as other aspects of husbandry are adequate I don't see a problem with that size tank, especially if its only two frogs. I have seven ebenaui in a 10 gallon and don't feel they're overcrowded..


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I'm not saying they wont survive or even breed. Hell frogs breed when they shove 100's in a box and ship them over seas with half arriving dead.... but when you put that many frogs in that small of a space like a 5 gal you are asking for trouble.

For one the smaller the tank the less stable the evironment, toxins can build up quickly and the micro ecosystem of the tank can get out of balance easily. Our vivs go through a nitrogen cycle similar to aquariums, and while its possible to maintain balance in a small aquarium, its much easier the larger you go. Same for a viv.

Second, a small tank will loose or gain heat much faster then a large. So they are more suseptable to temp changes. Such as if you have a brown out on a hot day...I personally lost a group of mantella in a small tank because of situation like that. Frogs with similar temp requirements in larger tanks all survived. Learn from my mistake.

Third a small tank with that high of a population is unlikely to maintain good populations of micro fauna like springtails that the frogs and offspring can feed on regularly. Which means you have to supplement their diet more, and if you run short on food they are in more danger. Many small bugs like fungus knats find their way into our tanks and help supplement our frogs diet, but in a tank as small as a 5gal they never get a chance to take hold before eatin. 

Fourth, the *general* rule for darts was 5 gal per frog being the *minimum* when I entered the hobby several years ago, in recent years the consensus among experienced and responisble keepers seems to be more like 10, with a pair in a 10 gallon pushing it for most species. Mantella are only slightly smaller, there is no reason to assume they need less space then darts of similar size even if they tend to do better in groups.

Fifth, Unless your group dynamics are perfect, the smaller the tank the more stress between the frogs which can impact overall health, lifespan and breeding.

Thats just 5 points that easily come to mind, there are probably more. 

After reviewing those 5 simple points you are still comfortable keeping large groups of frogs in such small enclosures thats your buisness...but I and the majority of experienced keepers are not.

But the choice is yours. Good luck.

Sincerely,
Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Fourth, the *general* rule for darts was 5 gal per frog being the *minimum* when I entered the hobby several years ago, in recent years the consensus among experienced and responisble keepers seems to be more like 10, with a pair in a 10 gallon pushing it for most species. Mantella are only slightly smaller, there is no reason to assume they need less space then darts of similar size even if they tend to do better in groups.


Dave,

When did this become a rule? It was never a rule and never meant to be a "hard" guideline by the original proponents of this guideline. As I demonstrated in my very first thread on this forum, this rule is a problem as the size of the enclosure increases the space available per frog actually decreases. See this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html 

This problem holds true regardless of the size of the enclosure and is actually a poor method to judge populations for enclosures... In a small tank, there is actually more usable space per animal than in many larger enclosures. 

As a ridiculous example a volume of 1 inch by 1 inch by 2400 inches is close to ten gallons if I remember correctly off hand. Obviously this is not suitable for any anurans..... 

There needs to be a better method than the x volume per animal suggestions as you could have a 500 gallon enclosure not provide any suitable habitat for an animal if it isn't set up properly... 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Ed said:


> Dave,
> 
> When did this become a rule? It was never a rule and never meant to be a "hard" guideline by the original proponents of this guideline. As I demonstrated in my very first thread on this forum, this rule is a problem as the size of the enclosure increases the space available per frog actually decreases. See this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html
> 
> ...


Thats why "General" was in bold type....I apologize for not explaining in more depth why its just a "general" guild line.

And of course everything you said is correct. Tank Dimensions are important to consider, for example I believe a 20 long has nearly the same floor space as a typical 29gal rectangular aquarium.

I still wouldn't feel comfortable on a personal level because of the points I outlined earlier, with keeping groups in a 5 gal. 

I won't judge anyone to be a poor frogger for putting a pair of goldens in a 5 gal, especially if its well designed. I'd just rather not especially if I have the room, and again because of the points outlined above I feel its safer not to house animals in a tank that small if you don't have to. 

I would point out though a stream/pond would take up some of the already limited floor space.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> Thats why "General" was in bold type....I apologize for not explaining in more depth why its just a "general" guild line.
> 
> And of course everything you said is correct. Tank Dimensions are important to consider, for example I believe a 20 long has nearly the same floor space as a typical 29gal rectangular aquarium.
> 
> ...


The other consideration in this topic is the frogs being discussed. Mantellas tend to breed better when the males have to compete for space in the viv.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jubjub47 said:


> The other consideration in this topic is the frogs being discussed. Mantellas tend to breed better when the males have to compete for space in the viv.


That may be true, but I doubt the difference in a 5 and 10 would be substantial enough to impact that much especially considering they breed fine in the wild with much more available space. Now if we are talking a 10 vs a 30gal, 40gal breeder or a 55gal that may come into play more. I would rather sacrifice a tiny bit of potential breeding behavior in favor of a more stable/safer environment. 

On the 10 vs 5 topic relating to Ed's comments, you would loose some floor space with the 5 but not that much. But the increased volume and mass of the tank if its a 10 would be beneficial in relation to many if not all of the points I out lined earlier like temperature stability, biomass(you could have a deeper substrate level) and a larger background could provide more levels, and add to the usable biologically active area if its constructed of natural materials and especially if kept moist. The little extra floor space of the 10 would also allow him to have the pond/stream while having less impact on other factors. And as it stands now he only has a pair, so no 2 males fighting for space anyways.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Dendro Dave said:


> That may be true, but I doubt the difference in a 5 and 10 would be substantial enough to impact that much especially considering they breed fine in the wild with much more available space. Now if we are talking a 10 vs a 30gal, 40gal breeder or a 55gal that may come into play more. I would rather sacrifice a tiny bit of potential breeding behavior in favor of a more stable/safer environment.


The problem with this scenario is that the difference in the tanks can be enough to cease all breeding behaviour completely. Many years ago I kept a group of 7 aurantiaca in a 20L. They were acquired as wc adults and after a year I pretty much gave up on them and moved them into a heavily planted 10g to use the 20L for another project. Withing 2 weeks in the 10g I found eggs. I never had any success with the eggs, but was able to get eggs on several occasions over the next few years. I've had conversations with a few mantella keepers in the past few months that have also had similar results. In this situation, I doubt that there will be any breeding success if it is indeed a pair just due to the nature of these frogs. They really seem to need the competition to spur on breeding.

With darts I feel the biggest benefit in tank sizes is that larger tanks will give more microclimates and allow the animals to find a place in the viv they are comfortable. As Ed said, a properly setup viv can be done is a relatively small area with some thought behind it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> On the 10 vs 5 topic relating to Ed's comments, you would loose some floor space with the 5 but not that much. But the increased volume and mass of the tank if its a 10 would be beneficial in relation to many if not all of the points I out lined earlier like temperature stability, biomass(you could have a deeper substrate level) and a larger background could provide more levels, and add to the usable biologically active area if its constructed of natural materials and especially if kept moist. The little extra floor space of the 10 would also allow him to have the pond/stream while having less impact on other factors. And as it stands now he only has a pair, so no 2 males fighting for space anyways.


In most practical circumstances, one can have the same depth of a substrate in a 5 gallon as a ten.. if one was willing to put up with the aesthetics (a 5 gallon has a height of 11 inches while a ten is 13 inches in height... ) The stability of the biomass is going to depend on how the enclosure is not only set up but mantained... 

Temperature stability is going to depend on the thermal mass of the whole package.. assuming that a larger volume is always going to have a greater thermal stability is an incorrect assumption as it will depend totally on the thermal mass of the entire volume. If most of the volume is air as compared to a smaller volume with a higher thermal mass (say water/clay..) then the thermal stability of the smaller enclosure is going to be greater than the larger. 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jubjub47 said:


> The problem with this scenario is that the difference in the tanks can be enough to cease all breeding behaviour completely. Many years ago I kept a group of 7 aurantiaca in a 20L. They were acquired as wc adults and after a year I pretty much gave up on them and moved them into a heavily planted 10g to use the 20L for another project. Withing 2 weeks in the 10g I found eggs. I never had any success with the eggs, but was able to get eggs on several occasions over the next few years. I've had conversations with a few mantella keepers in the past few months that have also had similar results. In this situation, I doubt that there will be any breeding success if it is indeed a pair just due to the nature of these frogs. They really seem to need the competition to spur on breeding.
> 
> With darts I feel the biggest benefit in tank sizes is that larger tanks will give more microclimates and allow the animals to find a place in the viv they are comfortable. As Ed said, a properly setup viv can be done is a relatively small area with some thought behind it.


You might be right, though a number of factors could have come into play. Like tank location,the smaller tank being more densely planted vs the larger tank. Perhaps even plant species some how had an effect, though not sure how. I have also noticed that moving frogs between tanks, even if you put them back into the same tank can change the group dynamics thus possibly effecting breeding. Sometimes seems to be like you're hitting the reset button on their little froggy society  

I would also agree with what you said about micro climates...I think a lot of keepers fail to recognize their existence let alone their importance. It could be included in my 2nd point about why I favor larger tanks, but it is probably important enough to warrant its own point... lets call it #6


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