# Lady bugs as food?



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I was looking at a lady bug, and remembered culturing them for my moms gardens and remebering how small the newly hatched larvae are. And how frecuently they layed eggs.
But the only question is do they taste good?


----------



## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

im fairly sure there noxious , i bought a few thousand year agos for my chams they ate some day one then would never touch them again
craig


----------



## donstr (Jun 21, 2007)

Yeah, compare them to dart frogs or even monarch butterflies. Bright colors usually translate as bad tasting/posionous in the natural world.


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I dont know if you already knew this but i'm talking about their larvae
which look like this, and when they first hatch out are about the size of the egg obviously.


----------



## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I guess you could give them a try. 

How do you culture them? if I see the prices they charge for them at garden centres I can't immagine they are easy to reproduce.

I personally wouldn't want them in my house because last summer they completely destroyed my aphid cultures, but the ones who did that where pretty large, I think as big as they get, about the size of a big firebrat (is that the correct name?) My azureus and other tincs eat big firebrats without a problem. Like you say, you can feed them out when they are very small, so size shouldn't be the problem. I don't know about toxicity though


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've generally learned to avoid that whole group of bugs... they develop toxicity before they become the full bug, and it's probably different times for different insects... but not worth it in this case IMO. They are also uncomfortably spiney, even if they aren't toxic yet.


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Actually they are very easy to culture, you really do nothing, you put them in a container with some aphids and they will start laying eggs in cluthes, you simply slip under the clutch with a spoon and put it in the viv in a few days tons on larvae. 

I cultured them myself for my mothers garden and in the first day or so as larvae they hardly even have spines.
The ones that have spines are the Asian variety the California variety which I think have either 6 or 8 spots dont have spines. 

I think I may give it a try, the only thing i'm worried about is if they are toxic. But wouldnt the frogs know if it is toxic and therefor not eat it? 
these pics show larvae that are about as big as they get, and pic above is about how small they are.

Here is an Asian lady bug with its larvae-
























And here is the California Variety-


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You have to realize that you're feeding a native bug to an exotic animal... or and exotic bug from a different part of the world from the exotic animal... so since they haven't evolved with each other the animal may not recognize it as toxic... much like lightening bugs and bearded dragons. This is why I'm weary about feeding out the nymphs :?


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

maybe this would bring toxicity back to the frogs skin?


----------



## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

sorry but i think the last thing this hobbie needs is bring back the toxicty to the frogs , one idiot does that and is open about it we may see a full ban on darts 
craig 
ps if you can do it please dont post about it , they could be very scary in the wrong hands


----------



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

OH! (lol) i wasn't encouraging it all, i was just wondering if it could possibly happen. If so, its just another reason not to culture and feed out the larvae to the darts


----------



## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I know you're talking about the larvae, but I can testify about the beetles.

I was once eating a bowl of strawberries, because of the color I didn't see the lady bug that was hiding. I can tell you, when I bit into it, it was the nastiest thing I've ever tasted. I spit it out and rinsed my mouth out dozens of times.

Yuck! :shock:


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

salix said:


> I know you're talking about the larvae, but I can testify about the beetles.
> 
> I was once eating a bowl of strawberries, because of the color I didn't see the lady bug that was hiding. I can tell you, when I bit into it, it was the nastiest thing I've ever tasted. I spit it out and rinsed my mouth out dozens of times.
> 
> Yuck! :shock:


Exactly thats why you dont feed them, only the larvae. And I think it is not exactly true to state that if the lady bugs are toxic then it will give the frogs back their toxity. I am not saying it is not possible, but unless you have scientific evidence I cant see how that is true.
{People sometimes feed ants and they have some toxins because they paralyze small insects in number at least. } What I just stated has no scientific evidence but I have watched some ants kill other insects using a stinger. So it is possible....

So I am not saying that I will try it and make the hobby close by putting toxins in the frogs.
But how would you go about testing this theory about toxins from ladybugs larvae (if they have any) returning to frogs?

I think we need more inputs.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

For the possibility of making the frogs toxic... it could be a possibility if the chemicals making the bugs noxious is similar to that of which they ingested in the wild and converted for their own use. If it's significantly different, and especially different from what they evolved with, they might think the things are just nasty tasting. At some point, someone is just going to have to give these guys a go and see what happens... but realize that the animal involved could be at risk. It's the only way to find out. Milkweed bugs are dandy frog munchies up until the 4th instar or so, so maybe the first instars might be something to try.

There have been cases of PDFs ingesting insects that had some toxins... I believe it was ants... and they did regain their toxicity... and by that I mean the different chemicals showed up in a chemical test and may more may not have actually made the frog noxious. Unless you're feeding a large amount over the frogs life, it's not likely to develop much strength unless it's a staple or at least fed in decent amount.

To test the theory of toxicity, you'd have to test the frogs' skin for chemicals present before the frog is fed the ladybug larvae, and then have that test repeated over weeks/months/years to see what new chemicals pop up. The rest of the diet and environment would have to be strickly controlled. I know this has been done with auratus in the past (even CB they do have some chemicals in the skin, but not enough to do anything to us which is why they are considered non-toxic) and they picked up some chemicals from their ant diet, but not by a significant degree.

You don't have to try making the frogs toxic to try and close the hobby down... uneducated activists are more than happy to do it for you just for the word "poison" in their common name, or even because they are an exotic :?


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Okay, that is a little clearer. So do you think anybody will try this experiment? And body want to try? :roll: 
I know it is probably out of my range of chemical testing, so does it end here, this discussion.
If someone does try it out, and the results come back negative for chemicals, then I think Ladybugs are pretty darn easy to culture, hopefully another feeder insect?


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've got my hands on enough other feeders that ladybugs aren't even on my list to try breeding, lol... all ladybugs in my place get vaccumed and tossed outside :lol: 

Unless you know a scientists doing tests on the toxins of captive PDFs, likely the discussion does end here. It's not a matter of if they make the frogs toxic or not... its whether the frogs will eat them or not. Honestly you shouldn't be doing anything with the frogs that would have you getting toxed anyways, so it's not much of an issue.

Are they that easy to culture? What is their generation time... do they need a cold spell?


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Yes they are that easy, all I did was collect maybe 5 or 6 ladybugs, put them in a pencil box with some branches that were infested with aphids. I cant remember how long it took, but it was within a week, to get eggs, then the eggs took about 4 days to hatch. 

But I may try it again just to be sure of the time it takes. Ladybugs are begining to come out now that its spring in CA.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes they may be willing to do a few clutches, but you'll have to test that they will do it all year around. If they do, and the critters like them, you're set. If they need a winter rest, it's a pain :?


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Well I wasnt planning on making them a staple diet, only when they are abundant as a source of variety in their diets.


----------



## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I think the problem here is that you are using perfectly good frog food to make another even less efficient source of frog food. Unless ladybugs can be fed on something either artificial or something that is not as labor intensive as aphids and not palatable to frogs not worth it IMO.

I'm kind of surprised the idea of spiders for food hasn't received much interest though. They do not need to be fed on small prey...so you could find use for any crickets/roaches that are too big for the frogs. Achaearanea tepidariorum has adults the size of a pea. I think pholcids would be ideal however since their eggsacs would be easiest to deal with.


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Ya but heres the thing aphids ARE NOT the greatest feeders, as many have said before they are high in sugar becasue of what they eat for a living, basicly plant sugars. And the have very little protein. Larvae dont only eat aphids they eat many differnt small invertabrets. So I cant see how aphids are that great compared to Ladybug larvae?


----------



## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Will the escaped (uneaten) larve end up growing up, multiplying, and eating every other insect in the viv?


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've used aphids as feeders before with good success... I used fresh born ones to feed my pumilio babies since I didn't know the wonders of springtails back when I had my first pums. Again, they are likely not great staples, but are great for variety... everything in moderation. What sounds bad to us for being a regular part of the diet may in fact be good for the frogs in the right amount. 

In theory you could take some of the aphids out of your culture and feed them to ladybugs if you wanted to.

As for spiders... one of the reservations I also have against ladybugs applies to spiders too... they are predators. The best feeders are lower on the food ladder which is what makes it so much easier for us to produce them in good amount. I'm not one to turn down feeding some fresh hatched praying matids, but I'm not going to go out of my way to breed them just for that purpose... but they are also way more active (and thus attractive as food) while still being relatively harmless than most of the spiders I've gotten to know. I've had a couple spiders take up residence in and around frog tanks and my frogs didn't show much interest.


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

I am not saying that Aphids are not good for variety, I just think that lady bug larvae would be better since their not pure sugar( yes I know that we dont know that ladybug larvae dont have toxins...I am talking about if they dont. And dont pound me for saying aphids are pure sugar, no I have not done tests or reserch, but I know they are mainly sugar from common nolege, (And I have no idea how to spell nolege? ). I dont see feeding aphids to ladybugs as wasting them, they are not endangered? :wink: 

And as for ladybugs taking over your viv, posible, not very likely, ladybugs dont live very well in your tank. And I would think they are pretty easy to spot and kill if needed.

Hope that answers your questions.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Knowledge.

Not sure why you thought I'd think they are wasted... just that you have to make sure to plan your aphid use accordingly so you don't feed out too many aphids overall, or too many to the frogs and not enough for the ladybugs, etc. Needing the live feeder for the ladybugs just makes it that more complicated to raise them if you only cultured aphids for them... but if you're already culturing aphids, then why not try some ladybugs on the side (if they are eaten by the frogs - something that still needs to be tested and could make this whole convo moot). I just wouldn't scrap aphids as a food source since you're not quoting nutritional information and the nutritional needs of the animals involved... so you can't say they are worthless anymore than you can say the ladybugs would be better just because of what they are (especially if they eat "nutritionally worthless" aphids... you are what you eat...).

And I'm not totally sure about these guys dying in tanks or being easy to spot and kill as little black juvies. Do they die in high humidity environments? I know as little less toxic babies they aren't brightly colored and anything black in my tanks might as well be invisible... I'd recomend trying to limit them to a bowl until you know their survivalship.


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

> Not sure why you thought I'd think they are wasted...


I am actually talking about what Dendrobait said, I think I will start quoting because it can get a little confusing.



> (especially if they eat "nutritionally worthless" aphids... you are what you eat...).



Yes true but the question is is that all they eat? I would think they would have to eat something else as well to live, they are pretty large beetles and I dont see how they could only eat Aphids. I am not sure of this but as I said i would imagine so.
And I'm not totally sure about these guys dying in tanks or being easy to spot and kill as little black juvies.



> Do they die in high humidity environments? I know as little less toxic babies they aren't brightly colored and anything black in my tanks might as well be invisible...



Yes there may be a problem with small larve, but as I said ( i think i did) the stages go through very quickly, and it really depends on the species of ladybug, all the stages are a little bit different. But if you use one that you know does not live in Humid environment( like the CA variety) then they will mostlikey die. And if you are scared about all your springtails getting eaten, if you think about it, ladybugs can not catch a SPRING tail.. hint hint. They are used to climbing on the limbs of your plants looking for ahpids. Another reason I though they would be easy to spot, and the larvae actually have some pretty bright spots on their backs, which grow as they mature.


----------



## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Yes true but the question is is that all they eat? I would think they would have to eat something else as well to live, they are pretty large beetles and I dont see how they could only eat Aphids.


James would be more knowledgeable in this area, but I believe that the majority of ladybird beetles are largely aphid specialists.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ah, ok... or you can just respond with their name at the begining of the sentence lol.

They can specialize in aphids (much like some ants do... ever herd - hah! - heard of the aphid farming ants?) because the things are so plentiful when they get a good infestation going. Who would have thought something as big as a whale could specialize on krill? So yes, it's perfectly feasible for them to much on aphids all the time... they sit there waiting to be eaten practically.

As for the easy to spot, if they have the bright spots on their back, I don't want them near my frogs because thats a sign that at that stage of development they are likely toxic.

The _spring_tail bit isn't always true... one of my best producing in tank species doesn't spring... not all of them do. But then, I don't imagine the ladybug larvae hanging out in the leaf litter to get them.

I think we've kinda gotten to the point where we are talking around in circles and don't have enough info to move foreward. We need someone to test this stuff (will our frogs even eat them?) or else the continuation of this thread is pretty useless :?


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Agreed, we need an expert... or someone who is brave enough to test the theory of toxicity in ladybugs.

So unless someone wants to try it, then say so, other wise this thread is over. :|


----------



## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

I'll add my bit of knowledge on the subject. I'm no biochemist, and would not want to comment on the toxicity of lady bugs to frogs. As far as lady bugs specializing on aphids alone, I don't beleive it to be true. I worked with cotton field arthropod populations for two years, looking at the predation, parasitism, and pest activity across the fields. What I have noticed in regards to lady bugs is that they are for the most part generalist predators, both in the immature and adult stages. In the situation I was studying, there were plenty of cotton aphids for the lady bugs to have lived on, however I saw them feeding on pretty much anything they could get their mandibles on, especially at the immature stage. Everything from aphids and caterpillars to other predators such as minute pirate bugs, lacewing larvae, and yes, I've even seen them feeding on fire ants, although more often than not I saw the fire ants feeding on the lady bug larvae. 

There are a variety of lady bugs and their habits, so to state something about all lady bugs would be misleading and wrong. My experiences with them were mostly with the Convergent Lady Beetle (_Hippodamia convergens_), the Sevenspotted Lady Beetle (_Coccinella septempunctata_), the Multicolored Asian Lady Beetle (_Harmonia axyridis_), and Scymnus Lady Beetle (_Scymnus spp._). Asian lady beetles are the ones most often sold for biological control. Incidentally, these are the ones that are also considered pests and can infest attics overwinter, numbering in the thousands.


My idea about using them as food, raising lady bugs as food would be an inefficient way to feed frogs. Yes, you could raise them on aphids, and aphids are extremely easy to culture, but the amount of time required for lady bug life cycle, coupled with the amount they eat, It is much easier to feed darts the staple food sources, and to supplement that with wild caught arthropods when possible. 


James


----------



## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Yes( trying not to go in circles  ) I realize that, but I was talking about them being a variety for the frogs. And as I mentioned above I have found they are very fast in their life cycle...you may have worked with a different species IDK.


----------

