# Starting In the Hobby, Vivarium Creatures...



## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

As the title says, I am new to this hobby. *Skip over this paragraph if you don't care how I got into this hobby, and want to know my questions. *After contemplating a reef for the ridiculous time of 3 years and spending countless hours and hundreds of dollars on books, I decided that the start up cost for a nicely sized tank (60 or so gallons, estimated 1,000-1,500 initially) wasn't too nice. The prospect of dealing with live rock and just curing in general was daunting, considering how many things could go wrong. So I stumbled upon vivaria one day and loved the concept and the beauty of the tanks. The tropical plants and animals in a closed ecosystem was very entrancing to me.

So my question is, what sort of creatures are suitable for a 30-60 gallon tropical vivarium? I have seen PDF's, Tree Frogs (White's and Red eye), and not much else. I want to look at all my possiblities before I start the viv and design it around that animal. Also, is there any significant difference between Dendro's, Colo's, and Mantella's? Thanks in advance...

P.S. What websites or books do you reccomend?


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

^^^ Massively loaded questions! 

Dendroboard has some awesome care sheets with excellent species info - I'd start there. (I did start there, actually)

Generally mixing species is a big no-no in the hobby... There's so much info on dendroboard - doing a few searches can usually answer just about any question imaginable.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Ok, I'll do that. I didn't mean for the post to imply I was going to mix species, I've heard that wasn't a good idea in all but the largest tanks, or the best situations...


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

You could look into Uroplatus phantasticus, Uroplatus ebenaui, Rhacodactylus species, Anolis species, Sphaerodactylus species, Lygodactylus species, many of the tree frogs available in the hobby (Nyctixalus pictus, Hyla marmorata, Dendropsophus leucophyllatus, Phyllomedusa species, and on, and on), or of course Dendrobates, Oophaga, Ranitomeya, or Mantella species. There are many many more things that I can't name off the top of my head  but those are just the one I've considered for vivariums. The lizards (especially the pygmy chameleons) would require a lot more ventilation though. Personally I've always come back to dart frogs (even before I started working with them) simply because of the ridiculously easy and cheap foods that you can culture yourself. Anyway... good luck and welcome to the board!


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Wow, thanks a ton. That really helped me. I do have one more question (I hope I'm not asking too many) I know there was a thread on this somewhere, but I can't seem to find it through the search function. What are the most aboreal dart frogs?


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmm, after looking through that list and seeing some frogs my favorites (visually) would have to be the Phyllomedusa, and Bird Poop Frog, as well as the Red eye tree frog and aboreal darts (vents). I really like the aboreal type frogs so I'm thinking a vertical vivarium, hopefully something like Mworks (it looks so phenomonal). Now I'm going to research and look around a little more, if you have any comments or criticism of my plan please tell...


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Whoops! In the above post I mentioned pygmy chameleons which I'd intended to remove since keeping them in glass enclosures is a topic of great debate among cham keepers (which I am not so I don't feel comfortable giving an opinion on it). 

If you're looking for arboreal dart frogs try the Ranitomeya genus first. These frogs are tiny though so if you're looking for a bigger arboreal frog then tree frogs might be a better bet.


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## dirtmonkey (Feb 10, 2007)

Here's a recent thread where I asked about arboreal darts and got some good answers:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/47155-best-active-climbers.html?highlight=active+climbers

V


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks again marinarawr, don't worry, chams seem a little advance for my skill level. Also that was the exact link I was referring to, thank you dirty monkey...


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Hmm, after a little looking I think I may go for darts after all. It would be a toss-up between vents, imitators, and varibilis. All are the more aboreal oriented PDF's.


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

Go for the imitators i love mine, they are the most active of my collection and other then my luecs are the most entertaining to watch. But thats JMHO

Welcome to the addiction, mine started roughly 3 years ago and has now caught on to several of my friends! If you start with one tank you will have 5 in no time. Its nice to see someone doing some research instead of just diving in head first, this website is a great source of knowledge and will be a HUGE help to you. 

Again welcome and good luck!!!


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I do agree that imitators are wonderful... I have two in a 30g extra high and when I put them in there initially I thought "I'm never going to see these dime sized frogs ever again...", but they're out, climbing glass and plants for most of the day so I don't have any problems viewing them. Saurian.net describes them as "Relatively bold and outgoing, two to three activity periods during day." which I find quite accurate. I will note that my two imitators have different periods of activity throughout the day so generally one is always visible.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Where are you located?


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

calvinyhob said:


> Go for the imitators i love mine, they are the most active of my collection and other then my luecs are the most entertaining to watch. But thats JMHO
> 
> Welcome to the addiction, mine started roughly 3 years ago and has now caught on to several of my friends! If you start with one tank you will have 5 in no time. Its nice to see someone doing some research instead of just diving in head first, this website is a great source of knowledge and will be a HUGE help to you.
> 
> Again welcome and good luck!!!


Thanks marinarawr and calvinyhob, those anecdotes have definitely got me on to imitators. Just curious, how aboreal are they?


P.S: Any idea what morph of imitator (if it is one at all) this is? I was thinking Tarapoto. I really like the coloration....


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

I believe that is a Veradero Imitator actually.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

That's a 'Veradero'. You can see some for sale in the classifieds at the moment. I have an unsexed pair of these that are almost 8 months old and they're wonderful.


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## tasteslikechicken (Sep 8, 2009)

Wallace Grover said:


> I decided that the start up cost for a nicely sized tank (60 or so gallons, estimated 1,000-1,500 initially) wasn't too nice. The prospect of dealing with live rock and just curing in general was daunting, considering how many things could go wrong.


Nothing against pdfs, but if you really wanted a reef tank I think you should go for it. Yes initially set-up for anything is expense, but you don't (and shouldn't) do everything at once.

Buy a tank and set it up for fish only to start & get it cycled & get used to the basics in the process (not sure if you are new to fish or just a reef system) Most "kits" come with T8 lights, which is fine for fish. If you want to seriously do coral you'll want metal halides eventually, which are expensive- but if want to put off that purchase you can buy a decent T5 HO lamp/fixture. That will allow you too keep a decent number of hardier corals if locate them so they aren't that deep in your tank. Work getting those to thrive- get used to/figure out your dosing system- then get your halides & more needy corals.

You'll want a skimmer at some point depending on how much your set-up leans toward a Berlin vs. Jaubert. You'll know or decide when that point when you can't control your nitrates or have explosive algae. That's another decently sized purchase, don't scrimp on it though b/c often you do get what you pay for. Everyone has their favorite, so do some research.

A quality show reef tank doesn't happen overnight. You'll have plenty to do and learn as you work toward that goal (and you'll have fun doing it). My biggest advice would be to find a LFS (local fish store) who carries corals and set up a rapport with them. They'll be thrilled to get you into the hobby. Books are great, but every tank is different and they can't address a lot of the questions of individual hobbyists the way a real person can. There are also many way to accomplish the same thing with fish (dosing Ca+ v reactors, refugiums vs dosing, sumps vs every other kind of filtration). If you are dealing with the same LFS they should be able to tailor your purchases to your needs (and budget).

Again, if you really want a reef I think you should go for it. Yes you might have set-backs- everyone does, but if you go slowly you'll have fewer then if you race into it and will be better able to pinpoint what was caused said problem and fix it. Your fish community should be there to help.

Good luck


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

I may get back to a reef someday, but for now I'll stick with the vivariums. Although the many hours of reading and thousands of forum post I realized I would never get started because it was too expensive... BTW: I know just about all you can get from a book about the hobby, just making sure you didn't think I charged in...


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

I was researching reef aquariums when I stumbled upon dart frogs and planted, naturalistic, tropical vivariums . Anyway the best piece of advice that I got years ago was to give any hobby type commitment 3 months to sink in, and if, after 3 months of researching until your eyes fall out, you're still psyched about the idea then you should go for it. Needless to say that approximately 2.5-3 months after I started researching reef tanks I became disenchanted with it. I mean it still seems really cool... I just think that this particular hobby is the one for me. (I got my first frogs after the 5th month of research .)
What I'm trying to say is that you should try to look at both hobbies and go with your gut on which one you feel more passionately about. Do yourself a favor and save the money for the hobby that's going to really give you the most bang for your buck. Then again, if you've already done that and decided that dart frogs and tropical plants are what you're into... Good choice!


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Marinarawr said:


> I was researching reef aquariums when I stumbled upon dart frogs and planted, naturalistic, tropical vivariums . Anyway the best piece of advice that I got years ago was to give any hobby type commitment 3 months to sink in, and if, after 3 months of researching until your eyes fall out, you're still psyched about the idea then you should go for it. Needless to say that approximately 2.5-3 months after I started researching reef tanks I became disenchanted with it. I mean it still seems really cool... I just think that this particular hobby is the one for me. (I got my first frogs after the 5th month of research .)
> What I'm trying to say is that you should try to look at both hobbies and go with your gut on which one you feel more passionately about. Do yourself a favor and save the money for the hobby that's going to really give you the most bang for your buck. Then again, if you've already done that and decided that dart frogs and tropical plants are what you're into... Good choice!


Lol, you're making me second guess myself now. I'm going into PDF's a little faster than the reef most certainly, since I have already found the seller I will get my tank from. Considering that I just got into the hobby on Sunday this is an order of magnitude greater than the 2-3 years I wanted a reef. Then again, I sort of see them (reefing and viv's) as extremely similar. Vivs are just a little easier than a reef, yet just as beautiful and interesting. I would take humidity and temperature over ph, temp, calcium, iodine, etc.

PS: Please don't misinterpret that last part that I think the care is the same, or that I am charging in. Don't worry, it will be well over 3 months (probably) before I get plants nevertheless a frog...


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## tasteslikechicken (Sep 8, 2009)

Wallace Grover said:


> Lol, you're making me second guess myself now.


One of the neat things w/ a reef tank is accumulating and culturing frags. The enjoyment from growing frags is similar in many ways to growing plants. There is also a shopping/trading/community enjoyment aspect to it- "hey that coral is beautiful, I'll trade you this frag of my stuff for your frag of whatever" "what did the LFS get in this week?" etc... In trying to decide you might want to consider the simple "why do I like this hobby?" For a lot of people it is getting new or weird stuff...it certainly isn't water changes, although you should enjoy maintenance at least one the level of working to achieve or maintain a goal. Pretty tanks take work (or a lot of money to do minimal work)- if you really hate the work you'll have an ugly or unhealthy tank.

You can do the same kind of thing with plants in vivariums but are a little more limited. If you decide you don't like a coral you generally can find a store to buy/trade for it and there is money there, especially if you're really goof a growing something relatively pretty. I've known people that always get a rock covered with pretty mushrooms, then they trade it for store credit and get something more exotic. Anyway, at least in most areas it doesn't work quite the same with plants.

Just something to think about. Not trying to push you


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Wallace Grover said:


> Lol, you're making me second guess myself now. I'm going into PDF's a little faster than the reef most certainly, since I have already found the seller I will get my tank from. Considering that I just got into the hobby on Sunday this is an order of magnitude greater than the 2-3 years I wanted a reef. Then again, I sort of see them (reefing and viv's) as extremely similar. Vivs are just a little easier than a reef, yet just as beautiful and interesting. I would take humidity and temperature over ph, temp, calcium, iodine, etc.
> 
> PS: Please don't misinterpret that last part that I think the care is the same, or that I am charging in. Don't worry, it will be well over 3 months (probably) before I get plants nevertheless a frog...


Sorry! That wasn't my intention. I would just rather see someone dive into what they love rather than something that's just an alternative. Another thing to consider is that you could always have a vivarium and a reef tank eventually! If that's the case then I hope, for your sake, that you have the self-control to keep from mortgaging your house for more frogs and frags .


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Marinarawr said:


> Sorry! That wasn't my intention. I would just rather see someone dive into what they love rather than something that's just an alternative. Another thing to consider is that you could always have a vivarium and a reef tank eventually! If that's the case then I hope, for your sake, that you have the self-control to keep from mortgaging your house for more frogs and frags .


Haha, don't tempt me!


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## Toby_H (Apr 6, 2009)

Wallace Grover said:


> PS: Please don't misinterpret that last part that I think the care is the same, or that I am charging in. Don't worry, it will be well over 3 months (probably) before I get plants nevertheless a frog...


Keep in mind you can spend several months setting up a Viv, getting the water feature 'just right', getting the pants started, balancing humidity/temperature, etc, etc... well before actually adding a frog... and this period is still very entertaining.

I spent a couple of months learning about frogs/vivs and then set up my first Viv. Now I've been playing around, working and reworking that Viv for 3 to 4 months.

While there is definitely something missing in my viv... It's still a fun project that has been a wonderful learning experience... and I am now very confident that I can supply a suitable environment for the frogs that I will soon be getting...


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