# Paludarium plumbing questions.



## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

So I am in the process of planning a rescape of my paludarium. When I do I would like to put in a sump. This will be my first rodeo as far as plumbing and using a sump and would like to know if I am the right track.

The paludarium's main tank will be 6 inches of water, this will give me just under 20 gallons in the main tank. I will have a ten gallon as the sump that will be about half filled giving me around 5 gallons in the sump and around 25 gallons total.

The height of the front pane of the tank is 18" and the back portion is 30". To achieve a 6" water line I will drill a hole in the back for a bulkhead. My plan is to have a long strainer tube turned on its side to act as an over flow. Then have a 90 to the bulkhead then another 90 to the sump for this I will have a durso standpipe. I have a 1/2" inflow so I will be using a 1" out flow. Here is a sketch of what I'm thinking:










I also checked out some pre made overflows for tanks with the bulkhead on the side of the tank, they have overflows that would work for this size tank so I might just use that instead of my design.

Also since we are not dealing with a lot of water I would like to keep the flow to as little as possible however the water will have to travel up probably 5 feet or more. I am figuring I should probably go with something that has a higher head (around 7 feet?). I would figure I should go with a more powerful pump that is adjustable and just dial it back to as low a flow as I can get to reach that height.

Any reasons this will not work? Does it seem like I'm on the right track?


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## ninjazx777 (Oct 30, 2013)

I would use a more powerful DC pump then needed so you can always change the speed to dial it in to the perfect flow


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## ninjazx777 (Oct 30, 2013)

Also you might want to go with 1.5" overflow to minimize the water sucking sound you will get from too small of an overflow


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Oh wow so even with that little of flow and inflow being 1/2" you would still think 1.5"?


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## ninjazx777 (Oct 30, 2013)

Unless you did a real slow flow maybe around 10-15gph it will be a loud sucking noise as the water goes into the overflow and trust me it's very annoying. On my old reef tank I had 3 1.5 dersa stand pipes on my overflow with only a 700gph return pump and it was still annoying


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

ninjazx777 said:


> Unless you did a real slow flow maybe around 10-15gph it will be a loud sucking noise as the water goes into the overflow and trust me it's very annoying. On my old reef tank I had 3 1.5 dersa stand pipes on my overflow with only a 700gph return pump and it was still annoying


Oh ok what if I go with an overflow box. the one I found has a 1" outlet and say it can handle up to 300gph. I am thinking I will keep it around 100 - 150 gph. An overflow would help with the noise right?


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## ninjazx777 (Oct 30, 2013)

If you bought something like this Super Nano con Dientes Overflow Box Complete Kit - Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff and kept your flow rate around 100gph it shouldn't be too loud. I would recommend buying the lid also Overflow Box Lid


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

ninjazx777 said:


> If you bought something like this Super Nano con Dientes Overflow Box Complete Kit - Glass-Holes.com dope aquarium stuff and kept your flow rate around 100gph it shouldn't be too loud. I would recommend buying the lid also Overflow Box Lid


That's actually the exact one I was looking at. Didn't see the lids at the time was going to just cut a piece of filter pad to cover the top but that would probably be better. Thanks


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

Like Ninjazx777 said, I would go at least double what you think you will need for the pump, and use a valve (on the output side) to dial back the return flow. A pump with a max 7ft head pumping up to 5ft, you will lose about 80% efficiency, meaning a pump rated at 250gph would only be able to push at most 50 gph against a 5 ft head height.

You may also want to consider getting a 20 gallon high for your sump if you can fit it into your setup. When I size sumps I like them to be around 1/3 full while the system is running, 2/3 full if the system is off. That way you have some wiggle room if a return starts siphoning or something goofy when the power goes out. 

If you are only going to push 50-100gph the glass-holes overflow shouldn't make much of a sucking noise, if anything, at that flow rate it might make more of a trickling type sound, but it shouldn't be very loud.

What size is the display tank? If it is over 40 gallons, it may have tempered glass on the sides. you can't drill tempered glass. Also, if this isnt a complete tear down, it is a massive PITA to try and drill glass while it is vertical, and it makes a heck of a mess.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> Like Ninjazx777 said, I would go at least double what you think you will need for the pump, and use a valve (on the output side) to dial back the return flow. A pump with a max 7ft head pumping up to 5ft, you will lose about 80% efficiency, meaning a pump rated at 250gph would only be able to push at most 50 gph against a 5 ft head height.
> 
> You may also want to consider getting a 20 gallon high for your sump if you can fit it into your setup. When I size sumps I like them to be around 1/3 full while the system is running, 2/3 full if the system is off. That way you have some wiggle room if a return starts siphoning or something goofy when the power goes out.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. Yeah I think I am going to get a 400gph pump that I can adjust the flow with since there is not that much of a price difference between the lower models.

As for the sump I am going to use something I have already and my choices are 10g, 20g l and 15g h. I am going to go with the biggest I can fit. I have also considered using a tote container if its a better fit and can hold more water, I figure the lid would probably help with evaporation.

As far as the tank it is 65 gallon however I contacted the manufacturer and was told they don't use tempered glass. I am planning on tearing down and drilling with the tank on its side.

Do you have a water pump you would recommend?


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

Is the 20 gallon a long (12x30x12) or a high (12x24x20)? If it is a 20 high, I would use that. You want the height for a sump so you have excess capacity even when the system is off. I would avoid the tote, they are not really strong enough to hold up to being full of water long term, they start flexing and sagging after a year or 2.

As far as a pumps go, a Danner Supreme Mag 3 would be your best bet, a Sicce Syncra 1.5 would also work, but both of those pumps are not cheap. You can try one of the Ebay DC pumps, but in my experience, those things don't push anywhere near the volume they are advertised to, especially at anything over 3 ft head height. Plus, from my brief search just now, they're not much cheaper than the Mag 3, and the Danner is a good pump that will last for years.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> Is the 20 gallon a long (12x30x12) or a high (12x24x20)? If it is a 20 high, I would use that. You want the height for a sump so you have excess capacity even when the system is off. I would avoid the tote, they are not really strong enough to hold up to being full of water long term, they start flexing and sagging after a year or 2.
> 
> As far as a pumps go, a Danner Supreme Mag 3 would be your best bet, a Sicce Syncra 1.5 would also work, but both of those pumps are not cheap. You can try one of the Ebay DC pumps, but in my experience, those things don't push anywhere near the volume they are advertised to, especially at anything over 3 ft head height. Plus, from my brief search just now, they're not much cheaper than the Mag 3, and the Danner is a good pump that will last for years.


It's a 20 long. I was actually looking at the danner mag pumps since they sell them at a place I have a gift card for.

As far extra capacity. Am I wrong in assuming that since this would be a gravity fed system there would be little or no siphoning effect if the pump failed in some way? Don't get me wrong I would be allowing for around 4 gallons (~20% tank volume) of empty space for the sump but just wondering if I am right in my thinking.


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

If the 20 you have is a long, that would be fine. The reason for wanting a taller than wider tank if possible is more about the low water level than the high water level (though it does affect the high water level too) and to a lesser degree evaporation. To run the Mag 3 you will need a minimum water level of at least 5-6" (the pump itself is about 4" tall) which means you have to run the system with the sump at least half full in the 20 long. Basically in a 20 long your minimum water level in the sump is 10-12 gallons, in a high your minimum water level is closer to 6-7 gallons to achieve the same 6 inch minimum water level. And this is a minimum, you will actually want to fill the system more when you do a water change. Otherwise you will be having to add water every day to make up for evaporation.

If you are going with the overflow, you wont have a back siphon from the drain, it is potentially your returns that could back siphon depending on your set up. If any of the returns are underwater while the tank is running, when the system shuts off it will back siphon. If all of your returns are above the water line this will not be an issue you would have to worry about. 

As far as the evaporation being more in a long than a tall, just get a piece of glass to cover the sump, problem solved either way. 

What are you planning on using the sump for? Just a reservoir to add capacity to the system and give flow? Are you planning on running any filter media? Were you planning on putting any baffles in the sump? Sorry not trying to be a butt, just trying to help you figure out what it is you want/need. I did professional aquarium construction and maintenance for a living for more than 10 years. I do something else to make a living now, but I still have a couple aquariums in my home.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> If the 20 you have is a long, that would be fine. The reason for wanting a taller than wider tank if possible is more about the low water level than the high water level (though it does affect the high water level too) and to a lesser degree evaporation. To run the Mag 3 you will need a minimum water level of at least 5-6" (the pump itself is about 4" tall) which means you have to run the system with the sump at least half full in the 20 long. Basically in a 20 long your minimum water level in the sump is 10-12 gallons, in a high your minimum water level is closer to 6-7 gallons to achieve the same 6 inch minimum water level. And this is a minimum, you will actually want to fill the system more when you do a water change. Otherwise you will be having to add water every day to make up for evaporation.
> 
> If you are going with the overflow, you wont have a back siphon from the drain, it is potentially your returns that could back siphon depending on your set up. If any of the returns are underwater while the tank is running, when the system shuts off it will back siphon. If all of your returns are above the water line this will not be an issue you would have to worry about.
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? I really appreciate the time and depth of knowledge you are contributing! As far as questions the more the merrier, I would like as few surprises as possible.

As far as the inflow the plan is for it to feed a waterfall feature. I am debating having a second inflow going directly into the water of the main tank if the waterfall isn't working out for any reason.

The sump is mainly a reservoir to house equipment and will also serve as filtration. I figured that baffels would not be needed with a freshwater application but will have poret foam dividing the sections and providing filtration. Also in my current paludarium I have an issue with surface scum and duckweed so I figure an overflow will help with that.

I also considered putting a co2 reactor in mainly to have the fun of building one and since I have all the other equipment for it sitting around collecting dust. I know that it probably is not going to do much since and co2 will outgas in the water fall feature so I might just skip that. 

Also I am having a tough time figuring out in my head accessibility when it comes to placement of the overflow. I am VERY picky when it comes to seeing any equipment in my scapes so I want to hide the overflow as much as possible with still having easy access for maintenance. My plan as of now is to hide it behind and island in a corner of the tank. However my aquarium (a DAS aquaplantarium) is unique in that it is designed to be viewed from the front as well as the top. (I included a photo of the tank as it is now for reference) This provides unique challenges is spacing but also hiding equipment. Can you foresee and issues with hiding the overflow? Would a vertical standpipe coming from the bottom of the tank work or should I stick with the bulkhead being on the back glass? 

Pic of the tank:


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, things have been kind of brutal at work this past week or so.

Personally I would go with the split return, one to your waterfall and one directly to the pool. That way, you can put a valve on the waterfall and have control of the flow while still maintaining most of the pumps output and maximizing flow.

You are right, with it being a freshwater sump, you don't really need the baffles, you might want to run a micron filter sock on the in-flow side of your sump to help with the duck weed and scum.

If you are looking for something that you can hide easily, you may want to go with a bulkhead and something like https://www.marinedepot.com/Lifegar...egard_Aquatics-RB31460-FIFTST-RB31464-vi.html or https://www.amazon.com/Lifegard-Aqu...rd_wg=DATUK&psc=1&refRID=KZHCM4YZ9DYSQNEVQQX4 instead of the overflow box you were looking at. I'd still go through the side (or back) of the tank with it, but these type are more typical for freshwater applications, though they wont allow duckweed to pass through if you put it in your tank again. Also with one of these types you will have an easier time keeping any terrestrial animals out of the overflow.

I wouldn't bother with a CO2 reactor, reactors don't really produce enough CO2 to start with, but like you said, it will all out-gas between the overflow and the waterfall. Reactors are messy, and just not worth the time hassle for anything larger than a 10 gallon tank.


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

Were you talking about running compressed CO2 or were you talking about making a yeast bottle CO2 generator? If you were talking about the yeast, I would pass, if it is a CO2 cylinder and regulator set up, you can do it, but you will use 3 times as much CO2 as you would running a canister filter/closed loop filtration.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> Were you talking about running compressed CO2 or were you talking about making a yeast bottle CO2 generator? If you were talking about the yeast, I would pass, if it is a CO2 cylinder and regulator set up, you can do it, but you will use 3 times as much CO2 as you would running a canister filter/closed loop filtration.


I was talking about a pressurized system. Probably won't go this route though as it will probably just outgas anyway.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, things have been kind of brutal at work this past week or so.
> 
> Personally I would go with the split return, one to your waterfall and one directly to the pool. That way, you can put a valve on the waterfall and have control of the flow while still maintaining most of the pumps output and maximizing flow.
> 
> ...


Maybe I am wrong in my thinking but would it be better to put the valve on the return going directly into the tank? My thinking is that the water would take the path of least resistance and would return to the lower hole making building head pressure very hard to do. By restricting the flow to the hole going to the pool you could control the amount of head pressure to a point where it could get up to the waterfall.


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## zsxking (Feb 2, 2018)

thedudeabides said:


> Maybe I am wrong in my thinking but would it be better to put the valve on the return going directly into the tank? My thinking is that the water would take the path of least resistance and would return to the lower hole making building head pressure very hard to do. By restricting the flow to the hole going to the pool you could control the amount of head pressure to a point where it could get up to the waterfall.


For the most redundancy, run two smaller pumps to each return, so less vulnerable to pump failure.


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## zsxking (Feb 2, 2018)

Actually, what is the reason to run a sump instead of just a canister filter? Any filtration that will be too much to fit into a canister?


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

zsxking said:


> Actually, what is the reason to run a sump instead of just a canister filter? Any filtration that will be too much to fit into a canister?


Yeah I have thought of just doing the canister filter but with the sump I can increase to water volume significantly (which helps with only having 6" of water) I can hide equipment and I have a problem in my current setup with surface scum and duckweed that can be eliminated. I also think I will keep some scuds and shrimp in there as a live food source.

Plus I have always wanted to try one and like the challenge of figuring out a good DIY build.


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

thedudeabides said:


> Maybe I am wrong in my thinking but would it be better to put the valve on the return going directly into the tank? My thinking is that the water would take the path of least resistance and would return to the lower hole making building head pressure very hard to do. By restricting the flow to the hole going to the pool you could control the amount of head pressure to a point where it could get up to the waterfall.


I assumed you weren't going to drill your return lines through the glass, which means the pump would have to pump the water up to the same height (over the top of the glass) for both lines. I would actually put a valve on both lines so you can tune the waterfall flow easily. 

Danner pumps are good quality, I wouldn't worry about doubling up on the pump.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> I assumed you weren't going to drill your return lines through the glass, which means the pump would have to pump the water up to the same height (over the top of the glass) for both lines. I would actually put a valve on both lines so you can tune the waterfall flow easily.
> 
> Danner pumps are good quality, I wouldn't worry about doubling up on the pump.


OK that makes sense. Yeah I would probably drill the return that goes to the pool (at least if drilling the hole for the outflow goes smoothly). Would the back pressure to the pump be of any concern?


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## Rhesus Feist (Jan 20, 2011)

The more holes you drill in the same pane of glass, the more likely it will break. I wouldn't drill the return line to the pond, your not running a reef tank that needs the high flow of a direct return. 

You shouldn't really need to worry about back pressure on the pump, these pumps are made to work with back pressure. NEVER restrict a pump on the intake side, only on the output side.


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## thedudeabides (Mar 3, 2015)

Rhesus Feist said:


> The more holes you drill in the same pane of glass, the more likely it will break. I wouldn't drill the return line to the pond, your not running a reef tank that needs the high flow of a direct return.
> 
> You shouldn't really need to worry about back pressure on the pump, these pumps are made to work with back pressure. NEVER restrict a pump on the intake side, only on the output side.


Yeah the more I am thinking about it I might have a tee where one line goes to the waterfall the other goes back to the other side of the sump. Although I wont have as much turnover in the main tank I think this will increase the efficiency of the matten filter. 

By the way thank you for answering all these questions I have, hopefully I am not being too annoying.


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