# HELP! Continuing Deaths



## sopp2000 (Aug 14, 2012)

Sorry for my poor English, i'll try to describe the whole thing more clearly.
I used to have had four adult tinctorius live in one tank (size 90x45x90cm) for a whole summer.They were all active, bold and ready to eat anytime, and i didn't see any aggression among them.

From about two months ago, the temperature has droped very low, so I used heater for them.I called it heater, actually it was two heating pads posted outside close to the side glass of the tank.It raised the temperature inside up to 20-23℃ at normal time but when the mist and air system was working,the temperature may drop to 18℃ or below. I knew the temperature was not stable but I had no idea to optimize it.

Unfortunately there was something wrong with my FF's breeding at that time so I had to use mealworm instead.
3-5 mealworms (size 1-1.5cm) one frog one day, and they seemd like to eat.

After I feed them mealworms daily for 1 week, one of my tinctorius start to stop moving and eating, standing on same place the whole day, head down on chest.I isolated it in a clean box and watched it, let it bath with electrolytes, but no sign to recover. I didn't found any shit in the box even it ate a lot when it was healthy and its abdomen was bulgy all the time. Then I let it bath with electrolytes and thiamphenicol and metronidazole, and even feed a little thiamphenicol and metronidazole into its mouth, but eventually I got nothing but speeding up its death...

Not long after the fist dead, the second frog came out with the same symptoms. This time I didn't force to feed it medicine just bath, hoping it can recover by itself, but it still dead. Last week, the third...It is indeed sadly and hopeless

I couldn't found any vet who is familiar with amphibians around me, so I had to cut the body off by my self, i mean to anatomy, but far from professional. From the anatomy, i found a part of bowel is become black. 

Is this the reason of death?
What kind of antibiotics shall I use? 
Is that happen because of instable change of temperatue and over feed?

I hope somebody can told me.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Can you check the feet on the other frog? Possibly a bacterial infection. Looks similar to what happens with Terribilis when they get foot rot. I can't comment on the color of the bowel.


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## sopp2000 (Aug 14, 2012)

Reef_Haven said:


> Can you check the feet on the other frog? Possibly a bacterial infection. Looks similar to what happens with Terribilis when they get foot rot. I can't comment on the color of the bowel.


It was blooding on the feet when I found the body. But I didn't remember if it was already blooding when the frog was sick but still alive. Do you think it is "Red Leg Symptoms"?


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

If the frogs were not passing poop, it sounds like an impacted bowl to me. The black part could be the mealworms stuck in the intestines. Are you still feeding meal worms? If I recall correctly mealworms have a lot of chitin in them. I only feed them occasionally. Are you back on fruit flies?


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## tongo (Jul 29, 2007)

From your description it seems like your frogs were doing well until you began feeding mealworms. They probably could not digest them properly.


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## sopp2000 (Aug 14, 2012)

tardis101 said:


> If the frogs were not passing poop, it sounds like an impacted bowl to me. The black part could be the mealworms stuck in the intestines. Are you still feeding meal worms? If I recall correctly mealworms have a lot of chitin in them. I only feed them occasionally. Are you back on fruit flies?


Not anymore, my FF breeding was recovered. Can not image that frogs can even excrete small grits which swallowed by mistake but get stcuk by worms. By checking the shit of the healthy one, mealworms never be a problem


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tardis101 said:


> If the frogs were not passing poop, it sounds like an impacted bowl to me. The black part could be the mealworms stuck in the intestines. Are you still feeding meal worms? If I recall correctly mealworms have a lot of chitin in them. I only feed them occasionally. Are you back on fruit flies?


The digestiability of mealworms is extremely underestimated in mealworms by the hobby to the point that it has achieved the status of myth. 
Even if we assume that the frogs don't excrete chitinases into their digestive tract (which is extremely unlikely as they are found in a wide variety of frogs and other amphibians) mealworms have a higher digestiability than many other feeders. As a simple breakdown of this point see 
http://www.jagran.nl/docs/artikelen...ts as potential ingredients for pet foods.pdf

Bosch, Guido, et al. "Protein quality of inserts as potential ingredients for pet foods." Proc. the Waltham Int. Nutr. Sci. Symp. Portland, OR. 2013.

There are also studies in other taxa that show that the chitin content of many insects mealworms are overestimated based on the method used to determine the chitin content. 
See Finke, Mark D. "Estimate of chitin in raw whole insects." Zoo Biology 26.2 (2007): 105-115.

In insectivores undigested chitin generally functions as a source of fiber for the animals to support the movement of the bolus through the gastrointestional tract. 

This is also before we consider that in the wild these frogs are adapted to consume arthropods that are high in chitin such as ants, beetles, millipedes, and so forth so the chitin shouldn't be that high on the list of health risks. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> Can you check the feet on the other frog? Possibly a bacterial infection. Looks similar to what happens with Terribilis when they get foot rot. I can't comment on the color of the bowel.


 Its a lesion caused by the action of microbes and it has been reported in other frogs than terribilis such as tinctorius. Based on the reports it is closely associated with excessively moist substrates and in some cases with Mycobacterium marinum infections. 
At the minimum the frogs need to be moved to a different substrate such as unbleached paper towels which are then changed daily. 

some comments 

Ed


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