# Building first viv. What is my next step?



## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

I have made a false floor and used great stuff to make the back ground that I want, but unfortunately all I could find today at Home Depot was brown silicone II (has the bio-seal), and no tubes of brown silicone I. So instead I got black _which turned out to be roof sealant, made of asphalt_. I also got Forest Bark for the background but I am unsure if it will look very good. The substrate will be topsoil mixed w/ sphagnum moss w/ Riccia and Java Moss on the very top. I am going to plant some plants into the top soil.
*1. Do I need clay balls under my top soil?*
*2. Can I use silicone II on top of my GS to hold in the bark?*
*3. What should I use the Forest Bark that I have, and will it look ok? Right now I feel it will look like a playground.*

-Noah


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

EEK!- return that roof sealant with the asphalt, and get some of the stuff with bioseal, or even clear siliconeI I like the I better myself. 
yes you can use silicone II over the greatstuff, I don't know what the forest bark looks like, but should work ok, I ve seen other folks use bark with good results
I wouldn't use topsoil personally, go with coco coir or chips or even orchid mix mixed with the spagnum


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Why can't I use topsoil? My goal is for a really dark rich substrate (something that looks like topsoil, lol)

How long does the silicone have to cure?


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

This is what I am going for.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

chinoanoah said:


> Why can't I use topsoil? My goal is for a really dark rich substrate (something that looks like topsoil, lol)


Just use organic peat moss in place of the topsoil


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

chinoanoah said:


> I have made a false floor and used great stuff to make the back ground that I want, but unfortunately all I could find today at Home Depot was brown silicone II (has the bio-seal), and no tubes of brown silicone I. So instead I got black _which turned out to be roof sealant, made of asphalt_. I also got Forest Bark for the background but I am unsure if it will look very good. The substrate will be topsoil mixed w/ sphagnum moss w/ Riccia and Java Moss on the very top. I am going to plant some plants into the top soil.
> *1. Do I need clay balls under my top soil?*
> *2. Can I use silicone II on top of my GS to hold in the bark?*
> *3. What should I use the Forest Bark that I have, and will it look ok? Right now I feel it will look like a playground.*
> ...


If you have made a false bottom then there is no need for further drainage such as leca (clay balls). You need to make sure you get some fiberglass window screening to put between your drainage layer and your soil layer. In your case the layers would go from bottom to top like this:
1) false bottom/ drainage layer.
2) Fiberglass window screening available at home depot. (this creates a drainable basket for your soil and prevents the water in your drainage layer from becoming contaminated)
3) Soil. Your "Soil" can be composed of lots of different things, but only a select few soils actually work well for the environment you wish to create. It is always better to have more than just one component to your soil. For instance, peat moss (a ground up moss that resembles dirt) is an excellent vivarium substrate, but it wont last long if its by itself. 

My soil mixture goes like this. 1/2 Peat moss, 1/8 Orchid mix, 1/8 Coco fiber, 1/8 Flourite, 1/8 Organic potting soil. Everything gets mixed together, and the very top layer is leaf litter.

Leaf litter can be collected wherever no chemicals are used, and oak leaves are good to use. they should be cleaned with water. I like to freeze mine in a plastic bag for 30 min. 

And my drainage layer is all flourite. 

As for your materials I suggest using brown or black GE silicone II. the bioseal is safe. Use the great stuff labled as "gaps and cracks" 

dont use the one that says "fire safe" because chemicals can leech out of that one.

You should be sure to not lay down your layers of great stuff foam too thick, and to allow at least a week for it to cure before attempting to silicone. 

For the background, cocofiber can be used with silicone. The silicone should be applied liberally and make sure to wear gloves. I wouldnt recommend the bark for the background


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

chinoanoah said:


> This is what I am going for.


If this is the look you want you should ask Troy what his steps were.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

First of all, thank you so much for your lengthy response!
Pics of what I've done so far.
















I've done GS but no pics of that yet, sorry.

*1. Why shouldn't I use 100% top soil?
*


jackxc925 said:


> My soil mixture goes like this. 1/2 Peat moss, 1/8 Orchid mix, 1/8 Coco fiber, 1/8 Flourite, 1/8 Organic potting soil.


*
2. How much $$ are we talking for all of the materials in your substrate, and does it look very dark and rich?
3. How thick of GS is too thick?
4. With your flourite draining layer, I assume you mean that you don't have a false floor?
*

-Noah


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

frogparty said:


> EEK!- return that roof sealant with the asphalt, and get some of the stuff with bioseal, or even clear siliconeI I like the I better myself.


Why do you prefer clear silicone I?


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

chinoanoah said:


> First of all, thank you so much for your lengthy response!
> Pics of what I've done so far.
> 
> 
> ...


1) If you look at a rainforest soil, it has a very very small layer of soil that is actually somewhat nutritious to plants. The rest is a clay that goes down pretty deep. No plants naturally draw nutrients from this deep. Froggers here are trying to replicate this very small top layer. 100% topsoil is probably good for growing vegetables and grasses, but it isnt very well suited for the vivarium. The soil we are trying to replicate is actually slightly acidic and isnt ussually dark and rich. With the wet conditions associated with PDFs, your soil would break down. I recommend this mixture because it ensures a soil with good quality, one that will provide your plants with the sustenance they need, that will drain well, and that wont hurt your frogs. I would say you could use the top soil that you already have in place of the organic potting soil. If and only if it doesnt have fertilizers. 

Now that i see what your false bottom looks like, yes you need to put some leca or flourite in to fill the space. I cant speak for the cost of leca as I've never used it, but i can tell you that i get all my substrate supplies from home depot and its cheap. each bag is large and can be used in multiple tanks. 

2)All of the supplies following lasted me 8 or so large tanks 

A huge bag of peat moss $5
A medium bag of orchid mix was $4
Flourite medium bag (aquatic pond soil at HDepot) $5
Organic potting soil $5 
Coco fiber bricks are $4 

Thats roughly $3 per tank and $23 total. pretty cheap when you put things in perspective. Especially because they are live animals that deserve the best care anyone could give them.

3)GS should be applied one layer at a time. dont build it up so its thick either. you can eventually get it thick by layering over a period of time if you wish. 

Also, if you mist each layer lightly with water, that will help the curing process. But dont soak it.

4)You are correct i dont have a false floor, but again, since your false floor doesnt take up the whole bottom of your viv, you need that leca, gravel, or flourite. i recommend flourite of the three because it looks better and outperforms the others when it comes to filtration


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

chinoanoah said:


> Why do you prefer clear silicone I?


they're not saying that the silicone I is better, they are saying that the asphalt/ roof sealant shouldnt be used in a viv uinder any circumstances


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

jackxc925 said:


> they're not saying that the silicone I is better, they are saying that the asphalt/ roof sealant shouldnt be used in a viv uinder any circumstances


He said he prefers it over silicone II, and i want to know why that is.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i built that 44 gallon in less that 24 hours, it was pretty simple.

for my substrate i used Eco Earth, and also the mix from josh's, peat,sphagnum, and FIR, and my riccia was from brians tropicals, and the java i got from some guys off a aquarium forum, he sold me a 75gallon back wall thing covered in riccia for 15 bucks, the lighting is a single 48" shop light. ummmmmmm thats it lol, the harderst thing about the tank was the top....that took me a while to figure out how i wanted to get the glass cut

here is the build thread
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/27958-40-gallon-long-2.html


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> i built that 44 gallon in less that 24 hours, it was pretty simple.


Troy, you must not have let the GS cure for a week?

Where do you get coco-fiber, and how much does it cost?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

nope i never let it cure for a week, im pretty sure it cures rather quickly, i think i waited about 8 hours, over night, then did the silicone and eco earth brick.... coco fiber bricks u can get them at petsmart, just let it sit for a few days and let it dry out after it expands, its about 5 bucks


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

are eco fiber bricks = coco fiber bricks?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I like silocone I better because
1. no bioseal, which is supposedly safe, but why risk organotins if you don't have to 
2. I like clear better than colored, this way I can mount plants with it, do backgrounds, seal rims on verts, all with the same tube
3. And at least at the hommedepot by me, its a buck a tube cheaper


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

New Photos of Great stuff


























Is this where the flourite should go?


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

.....bump.........


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

ummmmmmm flourite?


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> ummmmmmm flourite?


It was mentioned above as a cheap form of LECA. 

jackxc925, can you tell me what color it is?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

ummmm how much of a budget are u on, u can get enough leco for a 20 G for like 10-20 bucks....all the leca ive used is Clay colored, brick i suppose, its like an earthy red color


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> ummmm how much of a budget are u on, u can get enough leco for a 20 G for like 10-20 bucks....all the leca ive used is Clay colored, brick i suppose, its like an earthy red color


Well, I guess I am technically not ON a budget - But would like to spend as little as possible to get an average performing dark substrate. I already have the potting soil - So I just want to know what else I will need to finish off the substrate combination. 

Is Coco fiber bricks (expanded then dried) what I can use to cover the background? If so, will 1 brick be enough?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

yep...one brick should be enough.... its probably actually more than enough


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

So I just completely cover the GS w/ the brown silicone II, then pour/sprinkle/spread the coco fiber brick all over that silicone? After the silicone has cured, flip vivarium over and let the extra coco fiber fall out of the tank?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

yep thats correct


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Troy, is all natural coconut husk chips fine to use on the background? Enjoying this thread!! Colleen


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Update: bought a coco fiber brick last night, saturated it and it has been drying all night. Will post pics when I get out of class! I believe I bought the right stuff.
Also I got some brown silicone II for the application of the coco fiber.


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## jackxc925 (Dec 22, 2007)

nice, to speed up the drying process you can spread the coco out onto a tarp and put a lamp over it if you cant put it out under the sun. it needs to be very dry or it wont stick and from there things can get messy. How is the rest coming along?


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

Did you say you were going to use potting soil? I d highly advise AGAINST doing so

"Well, I guess I am technically not ON a budget - But would like to spend as little as possible to get an average performing dark substrate. I already have the potting soil - So I just want to know what else I will need to finish off the substrate combination."


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

puckplaya32 said:


> Did you say you were going to use potting soil? I d highly advise AGAINST doing so


Why? If I said potting soil I was mistaken, I have 100% top soil w/ no additives. Is that still bad? If so, why?

Here is what I bought:








In case it isn't clear enough, it says: _"Expandable Compressed coconut fiber bedding. Ideal substrate for reptiles, frogs or spiders requiring humidity"_
Should be good right?


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

The expanded coco-bedding you have there is fine, more beneficial if its mixed in with moss or coconut chips to help aerate the soil and provide drainage. You never want to use just regular potting as it has fertilizers in it, which slowly just poison your frogs


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Can you use coconuts chips solely on the background?


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Can you just use coconut chips for background?


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

You can use just coconut chips on the background. just simply press them into your silicone as you would coir. I personally find it looks awkward until its fully grown over with plants, but it can be done and provide a good climbing and growing surface


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

bought two more broms tonight and organic soil that has peat moss in it and stuff. Will mix with some coco fiber, sphagnum and bark.


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## Colleen53 (Jan 19, 2009)

Thanks Bryce for your comment. I personally don't like using any soil media in tanks, so I am going with the coconut chips and sphagnum mix. those 2 combined make a nice background combo.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

I think I will be mixing my coco fiber (IF IT WILL EVER DRY lol) with sphagnum and some "forest bark" that I have.

It is so windy outside that there is no way I'll move it outside, so i have had 3 lamps on it 24 hr/day for the last 2 days or so.

I used to work at my county's Material and Testing Lab where we would frequently dry aggregate quickly by "hot plating" it (putting it in a brownie tray and heating it on a stove top until all water had evaporated). Can I do that with the coco fiber?

*Can I bake it or anything?*


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

I always bake mine so I dont see why not, I've used the microwave too. I would just make sure to bake it in thin layers so it dries faster.


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## -Jex- (Mar 29, 2008)

Ya it does work like Devanny said. I just wanted to warn you if you don't like the smell of the brick then I wouldn't cause it does make you house smell like it while your baking it.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

*I have the window screen over my false floor, I assume I need that over my LECA (around the edges of my false floor) as well?*


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

I dont mean to sound rude but have you read on vivarium building? It seems that u dont really know what your doing or what to do.
Take a look at brianstropicals.com he has a tutorial you can use as a guide.


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

another great resource to building a viv is "Poison Dart Frogs" by Amanda and Greg Sihler--I patterned one of my tanks after theirs.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Try this as a substrate, I've had very good luck with it:

*4 parts black earth* - (high in nutrients and no fertilizers)

*1.5 - 2 parts sterilized landscaping sand* - (helps drain excess moisture from the soil)

*2 parts chopped up spaghnum* - (keeps wet soil from compacting - I used half Long-Fibre spagh and half Zilla Forest Moss)
*
1 part coco fibre* - (holds some moisture and lightens up the colour a bit)

*1 part orchid bark* - (for a little texture and added drainage)

I would definitely second the suggestion to NOT use a pre-mixed 'potting soil'. It's possible there could be fertilizers or other chemicals that could be bad for your frogs in there.

As suggested, read through a few tutorials or do a search for 'build journal'.

Good luck!


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

Afterdark, are you using Black Earth with poultry castings or without? Sorry to hijack... I can't find any without the poultry castings and I don't feel comfortable using anything derived from another animals waste with my frogs . 

On the topic of substrate mix there are plenty of good threads on subject and I always recommend browsing Amphibian Articles - Substrate Mixtures for the Vivarium. (If you click on "Articles" near the top of the page they have several other great write-ups about housing, species mixing, illness, etc.) As others have suggested just browse through past build threads and you'll find answers to any questions you might have about construction. When you're ready to plant start browsing the "Plants" section and look through all of the threads here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/12336-good-plant-threads.html


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

I will show you all the materials I have to make my substrate with in a few hours.


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## ravengritz (Mar 2, 2009)

michaelslenahan said:


> another great resource to building a viv is "Poison Dart Frogs" by Amanda and Greg Sihler--I patterned one of my tanks after theirs.


I agree. This a great little book to have around. I find myself going back to it as a reference at least once every few months.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Devanny said:


> I dont mean to sound rude but have you read on vivarium building? It seems that u dont really know what your doing or what to do.
> Take a look at brianstropicals.com he has a tutorial you can use as a guide.


Clearly. That is why I am on this forum looking for answers and guidance. 

This is what I have for substrate.
























+ Sphagnum
+ Coco fiber

Also here are two broms I got


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

I wouldnt use the miracle grow "organic" potting soil, as i mentioned before nearly all potting soils have fertilizers be it organic or not, it is still likely to be be hazardous to your future frogs.


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## tinctorus (Apr 24, 2009)

dude I can clearly read feeds plants for up to two months on that bag of miracle grow it clearly has fertilizer in it I dont know why you are so intent on using something everyone here who is knowledgeable has advised you against doing


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

frogparty said:


> I like silocone I better because
> 1. no bioseal, which is supposedly safe, but why risk organotins if you don't have to


theres no such thing as bioseal. Its a marketing term. They're essentially saying with bioseal "our silicon has no nooks and crannies on the outside, so bacteria/mold can't live on it"


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