# Heron's fountain - pumpless fountain



## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Has anyone ever attempted to build one in to their viv?

I'm going to start experamenting with it as soon as I find a small one way valve.

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## xm41907 (Nov 26, 2007)

If I understand it correctly, Heron's fountain uses two different bodies of water with an air connection in between. How do you plan to address this to make it a continuous source?


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Not sure, its something I want to play with. And want to get some insightful input.

Although its crossed my mind to use a pump (although that would defeat the purpose of pumpless) at intervals to add or remove water. Or some kind of valve. I'm not sure what the options are, just an idea

Could also be just a manual changing of containers depending on how long it runs.

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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

I appoligize, I'm not implying your comment lacked insight

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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Can you explain what a Heron's fountain is???


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

If no one does by tonight I'll be happy to. I'm at work so I can't. You could also Google it, its also known as hero's fountain

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## ynotnad (Dec 21, 2009)

Judy S said:


> Can you explain what a Heron's fountain is???


Heron's fountain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I had not heard of this before but how do you plan to refill the system?

The physical principle explained in the wiki entry works but only "once"....when the higher container runs out of water, the system ends. 

How would you modify this to include a refilling setup without a pump?


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

I've actually brainstormed a modification to this. No idea if it will work as of yet but roughly combines the two hidden containers into one and uses carbonated water or seltzer tab to start the process then it could be switched out. But since I'm a designer and do not really understand liquid, gas & pressure dynamics this could just be a harebrained idea.

I'm going to run it by my bf first to see if I'm not missing something totally essential

sent from my incredible...mind


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

It's totally flawed. Nevermind. Ahhh wishful thinking...


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

lol yes what you suggested sounds pretty flawed 

EDIT: This system could be created using a scuba tank or other pressurized air source but there is no real benefit....


I think I saw a very clever thread around here on a DIY misting system with no pump using scuba tanks. It is not very efficient, but for someone who has a lot of half-filled scuba tanks around it might be worthwhile


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

There is a somewhat "cousin" to what you are trying to describe that is an "oldie timey" method of getting water above itself called a "ram" system....that's why I was sort of curious...But it does require a wheel that turns because of waterflow to pump water uphill to i.e., where the cattle have a stock tank...


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Cool, I'll look into that ram thing.

I'll also post a picture of my plan. 

I could be wrong(lol probably am) but if I could solve the issue with the stupid one way valve it might have worked if I could keep the pressure consistant. 

On a different note I'm curious if I had a box that I could switch or replace or flip a directional valve on. It'd be a self contained system with little input. I need to rig up a mock of herons fountain and play with it. 

I know that perpetual motion is supposed to be impossible.

Like I said before I'm no scientist, to any measure. But honestly I love to chase projects like this, I have this silly feeling I'll stumble on to something great because I didn't know science said no .



sent from my incredible...mind


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I think the problem may be having the water at the "bottom" flow fast enough to drive it uphill...a check valve in the water line would prevent it from going back down...From what I understand when you move water it has to have three times the ability to come "out" to keep the "in" moving at the correct ratio...so I've been told...


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Here is my earlier idea
Maybe I should just write scifi 











In my perfect world the pressure would be constant and the one way valve would allow water down with no air escaping
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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I do see a flaw in the opening on the bottom. The pressure created by the column of water on the right (due to its weight via gravity) will push against the force you are trying to create downward by the air chamber. A 1-way valve (called a "check valve") would reduce the blowback pressure significantly.

Another problem is that the water "entry" (at the top, on the right) is higher than the water "exit" at the left. This means you need more energy to pump the water that way (which is why you are suggesting some way to increase the air pressure in the lower left chamber).  It is important to note that there is a distinct physical difference in your setup as opposed to the Heron's fountain setup. Heron's fountain uses 2 separate water containers, with the 2nd _already raised _so that it has the higher potential energy required <--It is also important to note that this increase in height is a source of energy for the system that does not exist in your setup

My knowledge of chemistry is lacking, but if you plan to use a compound to increase the pressure you will need to make sure it is not water soluble. Also, just how much pressure does this create? (In other words, how much seltzer/whatever will you need and how much will that cost, in comparison to the savings of not having a pump/electricity)

There are a flurry of other problems here, but I will stop there. I hope this doesn't come across the wrong way but perhaps you should look at some introductory physics texts before you spend too much time on your design. This is possible using an energy source other than a pump...but...a perpetual motion machine *IS* impossible. (What you are suggesting is NOT a perpetual motion machine because your source of seltzer/whatever would eventually run out)

Keeping the pressure constant will require a constant source of energy....as you are pumping water up the tube and "out" the top, you are releasing pressure from the system that needs to be reintroduced somehow otherwise the system will simply come to equilibrium. 
Also, if the air pressure inside is strong enough to pump the entire column of water, then when water is "falling" from the left side and the check valve opens, it is likely that the air pressure will simply keep the water from falling into the container at all.

EDIT: You will ALWAYS need some other energy source...if you can solve that one, forget the fountain you got yourself a nobel prize in physics.... *it comes down to whether any of these alternate energy sources are cheaper than the pump, which I don't believe they are.*


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## ClintonJ (May 11, 2009)

Totally doable!! But since this isn't a perpetual motion machine you have to reset the pressure somehow. If you look at the example system in ynotnad's wiki link...

File:Heron's fountain.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As soon as the water level in the upper container has dropped so low that the water bearing tube no longer touches the water surface, the fountain stops. In order to make the fountain play again, the air supply container is emptied of water, and the fountain supply container and the basin are refilled. Lifting the water provides the energy required."

All you'd need to do is run a pump a minute or two to transfer water from the lower container to the upper container and you'd have reset your pressure system. No co2 required! Are you 100 percent opposed to running a pump when the system needs to be reset? Depending on your setup this could be just minutes a day. 

A Tom's Aqualifter or similar pump could be plumbed in between the two containers and as long as it's air tight and has a check valve on it, it won't mess with your pressure until it's turned on. Your original drawing MAY work but you'd need a much smaller spout tube (like airline tubing size) feeding water to the display. Interesting project. Good luck!

Edit: what is wrong with your original drawing is you don't want water being transferred between both chambers, you want air being transferred. So the opening at the bottom of your first chamber shouldn't be there at all. Also, you need to extend the feeder tube from the display basin down below the water level in the bottom chamber, this negates the need for a check valve in that line. Those can and will fail especially if you've got crud in the bottom of your display basin.


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## ClintonJ (May 11, 2009)

I'm just going to post again instead of editing my stream of consciousness above . 

You want to extend the tube spouting back into the display to the bottom of chamber two as well as that chamber is the one that slowly empties of water as your system runs. You'll want your opening at the top of the dividing wall between your two chambers. The difference in water height between the two chambers is the Gravitational potentional energy you need to pump the water from chamber two to the display basin. Once the two chambers even out you'll need to reset the system. 

One other problem I see is that as the two chambers water heights get closer to being even the pressure to the basin will be less and less. That's why two chambers set at more extreme height differences would make more sense by giving you a higher pressure for the entire length of the cycle until all of the water has been transferred.

If I'm confused call me on it all you fluid dynamics majors. But this post took my whole lunch break so go easy on me


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@Clinton: I glanced at your posts and it seems in theory you are right, but actually creating such a system won't be easy....

However, I think you'd need to run that pump much more often than you think unless your reservoirs were sufficiently large, which would likely be impractical....not to mention installing a float switch into an airtight container will prove to be quite the "DIY" feat....

in the end it is doable, but not practical I don't think


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## Dynastyxsv5 (Feb 13, 2012)

You could run a mist system to refill the basin. Depending on how much water you have exiting the fountain and the the size of the basin will factor into how often the mist system would need to be run. But in turn the mist system would need to be refilled also and it uses a pump. But regardless a cool possible way to look at it.


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

Hey thanks for the break down, you didn't come across wrong I realized several of those problems when I deemed it not doable with those specifications. One of my concerns was infact the water soluability of the C02 gas. 

Lol and my bf said the same thing "if you solve that, we are retired!"

I'll keep playing with this, I'm just trying to avoid using something that could be a heat source, that's what started all of this nonsense. 

Oh and in the drawings it not really to scale, but I invisioned the delivery tube to be like an air line and the drain be a bit bigger. 




EvilLost said:


> I do see a flaw in the opening on the bottom. The pressure created by the column of water on the right (due to its weight via gravity) will push against the force you are trying to create downward by the air chamber. A 1-way valve (called a "check valve") would reduce the blowback pressure significantly.
> 
> Another problem is that the water "entry" (at the top, on the right) is higher than the water "exit" at the left. This means you need more energy to pump the water that way (which is why you are suggesting some way to increase the air pressure in the lower left chamber).  It is important to note that there is a distinct physical difference in your setup as opposed to the Heron's fountain setup. Heron's fountain uses 2 separate water containers, with the 2nd _already raised _so that it has the higher potential energy required <--It is also important to note that this increase in height is a source of energy for the system that does not exist in your setup
> 
> ...




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