# Nice Pic



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Moved 7 crosses into the 150, boy are they ever active and bold!

here is a nice shot, finally under some decent light, and able to shoot inside the glass... i added a couple more for [email protected]#$ and giggles 
the one i really liked









and the others... "ok" pics


























-Troy


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## R1ch13 (Apr 16, 2008)

Very very gorgeous buddy, Im glad these werent culled 

Keep the pics coming...

Richie


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

I love those frogs!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Troy,
their color and pattern looks better every time you post new pics. can we get a full tank shot?


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## atlfrog (Dec 31, 2006)

I would love to see a full shot. Nice pics as well.


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## ckreef (Aug 29, 2008)

what are they a cross of? would love a fts pic


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Nice vibrant yellow. Wheres the tank shot?


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## Mikro62 (Dec 8, 2007)

Whic morph of Tinctorius is it ?


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Mikro62 said:


> Whic morph of Tinctorius is it ?


They are "new" to science. _Dendrobates Tinctorius Unaturalis_


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Mikro62 said:


> Whic morph of Tinctorius is it ?


These frogs are a hybrid morph. Alanis male and a Citronella female.

They do look good Troy!

Cheers,


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

sorry every1 for abandoning the thread, i had some very heavy partying to do these past couple days, thanks swamp, and after dark for filling in some of the questions for me, much appreciated...here is a FTS


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## anthonystraus (Feb 11, 2009)

Beautiful frogs


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Wow - killer tank Troy! What are the dimensions?

Cheers,


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

48 L x 31 H x 24 D


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> 48 L x 31 H x 24 D


Great size! I think the planting is mint man. Very natural - great job!

Cheers,


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

They are good looking frogs, but still hybrids. I can't believe everyone is so accepting of these. Everyone is so against mixing, but when hybrids show up, it's a different story.
Scott


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Not everyone is accepting of hybrids.....most hobbyists on here are not.

Troy, in my opinion, is an experienced hobbyist and has proven to be reasonable in his stance and with his debate.

Doesn't make it right or acceptable to many of us...but I'm not going to jump in all over his thread as he really doesn't post it _that much...._

The only problem I have with it, is when the noobs chime in and are drawn to the thread and immediately want to do the same...


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Have you read this thread Scott - http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38335-crossbreeds-update.html

There are a number of people who have expressed their concerns about these frogs and Troy has been able to satisfy most of them (I think!)

You might not agree with his decision to keep these frogs, but the bottom line is they are his and he can do what he wants with them. Personally, I`m glad that he is posting about them and being upfront about his hybrids rather than trying to sell them off.

Cheers,


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

yeah, i mean i like what you posted here phil, i do not post these pics to promote hybrids to noobs at all, its mainly for the ppl that have been watching the hybrid threads i have posted, to see what the color pattern has gone thru changes and what not. . . if noobs are drawn to them, and want to do the same, well - hey regardless of what we say, ppl will do what they want no matter what. so the fact that some1 gave me a red mark for posting this kinda irritated me, cuz they said im "showing a bad example to noobs" i happen to think im showing an excellent example to all of us, just not noobs, for it is a controlled example, none have been released into the hobby, all frogs are healthy and happy. I guess im not too sure how this is a bad example, if noobs want to follow my footsteps and crossbreed tincs and not release them! awesome, more power to them, it can only help us understand the morphology behind the tinctorius species


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Those who are new to the hobby need to realize that it is hard enough to sucessfully keep ONE species of frog let alone 2 or more in the same viv.

When you say "noobs are gonna do it" and "do whatever they feel like".....then, that is not a helpfull attitude and jeopardizes that health of the animals.

No person with limited experience with dart frogs (under a year?) should even be considering mixed species or hybridization.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

This type of thread always seems to circle back to the same old debate...so anyway nudging the thread back on track, hopefully.

As I reflected upon the stated purpose of the OP, i.e. scientific experimentation, I was led to wonder what if any provisions would such a person make for the future? For example, people get out of the hobby, people get into financial difficulties and occasionally people have catastrophic changes in life (being hit by a bus). Would someone have an order requiring euthanization in the latter case or even in the former?

While someone could posit transferring the hybrids to another hobbyist the reality is at that point the breeder has lost control of them and thus has abdicated the responsibility taken upon themselves in the first place.

Probably something for another discussion but crossed my mind as I was reading this thread.

Bill


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

forgot about this photo!!!, i really liked this one


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

Man, Troy thanks for this post! Im really happy and anxious to see how these frogs change and develope as time progresses. The new tank looks awsome as well (wouldn't expect any less though lol)

Thanks and keep em comin!!


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Good lookin frogs Troy! lol


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I've noticed all the Ohio support for the Hybrids...

Memo to self.....be wary of all Tincs from that area....


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> I've noticed all the Ohio support for the Hybrids...
> 
> Memo to self.....be wary of all Tincs from that area....


that....or maybe we are all not narrow-minded, but i am not really from ohio just unfortunately re-located here


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

Hey, wait a minute, I'm from Ohio and the only hybrid I get into is my Prius.

Peace,
Shawn


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> I've noticed all the Ohio support for the Hybrids...
> 
> Memo to self.....be wary of all Tincs from that area....


lmao ahaha. Just to clarify...

I would never by nor breed (purposely) hybrid frogs. If seperate species were to breed accidently I wouldn't kill them but the simple solution to that is different tanks for different frogs.

I do enjoy this thread though, and I think the way he's handling this situation says alot about Troy as a person.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

stitchb said:


> . If seperate species were to breed accidently I wouldn't kill them but the simple solution to that is different tanks for different frogs.
> .


Wow...seperate species breeding accidentally huh?


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

elmoisfive said:


> I was led to wonder what if any provisions would such a person make for the future...While someone could posit transferring the hybrids to another hobbyist the reality is at that point the breeder has lost control of them and thus has abdicated the responsibility taken upon themselves in the first place.
> 
> Bill


Bill, I thank you for posting this and I would be truly interested in hearing the answer to it. Though I am likely to be further bashed by this community for being outspoken on the subject and apparently being too dense to understand what is gained by deliberately crossing these magnificent animals I cannot help but show you support for posting. Thanks again.

Before everyone gets all up in arms notice no where in my post did I say anything negative about anyone or their activities. I am merely posting support for a fellow DB member.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Before everyone gets all up in arms notice no where in my post did I say anything negative about anyone or their activities. I am merely posting support for a fellow DB member.


 

you'll have to get in line for the "curmudgeon ball" at the moment....


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Wow...seperate species breeding accidentally huh?


Say you house the frogs together temporally (like while a new tank is being setup) which I believe was the case in this instance. Not mate the frogs and call a big mistake haha I've seen this done on countless other posts and all it takes is the right conditions and BAM boots start knockin haha


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## Blackbird (Mar 4, 2009)

What I find interesting is that while most people are against mixing morphs even, between America and Europe - the frogs' morphs are not "classified" (if that's the word I'm looking for, foreign languages and all that, it's a pain ) the same, for example: Adelphobates galactonotus - according to where I live (Germany), there is no "wedge" morph - frogs that look like the supposed "wedge" galactonotus are seen as regular "75%"s... or the leucs: according to the care sheets on Dendroboard, it's okay to mix a standard leuc with a "green foot" leuc (since they're supposedly of the same morph) while here we see them as different morphs and you'd totally get bashed if you mixed 'em. I can't even wrap my head around the anthonyi, how did we come to have _ten_ (that I know of) different morphs of them? 

It's all very mysterious.

That being said, I myself am against crossing morphs (the term hybridizing doesn't really sit well with me when you're only having different morphs breed), simply because I like the idea of looking at my frogs and thinking _this is pretty much the way they look in nature as well_.

It still doesn't mean I think Troy's crossed morph tincs are ugly - in fact, they could have fooled me for a regular old tinc morph. 
And to say these frogs are unnatural, just because you don't like that they're not "pure" morphs... well, there ain't anything much that's more natural than an animal, is there?  (that hasn't been dna-tinkered, that is)
So long as there aren't any genetic disadvantages for crossed morphs - I doubt their "unnaturalness" is going to be the _frogs'_ problem.


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

I think you mean "temporarily" my good friend...

"Say you house the frogs together temporally (like while a new tank is being setup)"

And I like to have a tank set up before hand in order to avoid that.

Trying to avoid impulse buys helps as well. =)


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

stitchb said:


> Say you house the frogs together temporally (like while a new tank is being setup) which I believe was the case in this instance. Not mate the frogs and call a big mistake haha I've seen this done on countless other posts and all it takes is the right conditions and BAM boots start knockin haha


 
yeah...uh huh.....that's the way it happened alright


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

stay tuned, next on "as the frog turns" veronica the cobalt finds betty the alanis in archie the cobalts cocohut! What will the neighbors think?


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

michaelslenahan said:


> I think you mean "temporarily" my good friend...
> 
> And I like to have a tank set up before hand in order to avoid that.
> 
> Trying to avoid impulse buys helps as well. =)


LOL thanks, thousands of dollars spent on higher education and stil can't spell  ahaha

And you're definately right!



frogparty said:


> stay tuned, next on "as the frog turns" veronica the cobalt finds betty the alanis in archie the cobalts cocohut! What will the neighbors think?


Rotfl ahahahahaha


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogparty said:


> stay tuned, next on "as the frog turns" veronica the cobalt finds betty the alanis in archie the cobalts cocohut! What will the neighbors think?


 
Actually the neighbors won't have a clue because the fact is, the keeper threw the Alanis into the cobalt tank on purpose.....

and...he sure as heck ain't admitting to the neighbors as to how it happened.

or maybe he was cleaning the tank....


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

should have said "as the viv turns" or "frogs of our lives"


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

A soap on frogs... love it!

The Froglets and the Restless...

All my dendros...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Problem is....all those television shows imply that the frogs are romantic on their own.....unlike this case 

Didn't Letterman used to do a bit called "Stupid pet tricks" ?

That would be a little closer......but it's not the pets / frogs fault...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

who's the one that had the "if they did it" sketch?


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

First off Troy I must say that people have been extraordinarily patient with you.

That being said I respectfully request that you stop creating more threads about your hybrids. You have several now and, in my opinion, several too many.

The fact that you have in the past been dishonest about these frogs and your intentions with them helps solidify why hybrids are a REAL threat to the hobby. Misinformation and polite acceptance of your hybrids does no good to any one in the hobby especially those who are newcomers. 

You have done nothing "scientific" by crossing these two frogs. Nothing important or shocking has come of your "results". This was nothing more than a project to satisfy your selfish whims, stop trying to disguise it as anything else.

In response to the people who are interested in updates, why not do it through pm's or photobucket? Or at least keep it to one thread. Most of us are quite frankly sickened by seeing them for MANY reasons.


To anyone who is also thinking of crossing frogs please go to this link: Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide

You can see that there is more than enough naturally occurring variations within tincs and there is no need or room for hybrids.

As to the Mods and Kyle I would like to appeal to your sense of right and wrong. Hybrids should not be accepted by the hobby and this and all other threads flaunting hybridization should be deemed as "irrelevant", not only to this board but this hobby, and removed.


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## steelheader (Oct 25, 2008)

The problem is that these frogs look amazing. Many people will see these pics and want to try it themselves. It wouldn't be much of a problem if the crossbreeds were butt ugly. It is a bad thing when it draws in to much interest. I think the frogs look beautiful but so many people seeing them is bad for the hobby. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I absolutely love darts and I'm worried about the future.


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## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

heyduke said:


> In response to the people who are interested in updates, why not do it through pm's or photobucket? Or at least keep it to one thread. Most of us are quite frankly sickened by seeing them for MANY reasons.
> 
> As to the Mods and Kyle I would like to appeal to your sense of right and wrong. Hybrids should not be accepted by the hobby and this and all other threads flaunting hybridization should be deemed as "irrelevant", not only to this board but this hobby, and removed.


Normally I don't speak out on threads like this, but frankly I'm sickened by these closed-minded, condescending posts repeating the so-called evils of hybridization for the umpteen millionth time. This is a public forum and whether you like the fact that Troy produced these frogs or not, he's done nothing wrong by discussing them here. 

I'm glad we have breeders that are concerned about keeping bloodlines pure, but honestly it's getting ridiculous how rabidly some people condemn anything that doesn't look the same as its ancestors in South America. If you want to know that your frogs are as similar as possible to their wild counterparts, that's fine. If you can't tolerate someone else enjoying frogs that have colors/patterns unlike those in the wild, you really have no business telling them their perspective is wrong. 

I'm not in favor of pairing up any two frogs that will interbreed just for the heck of it, and I especially don't support representing frogs dishonestly (crosses or not). However, if someone well-informed wants to produce crosses (these are NOT hybrids by the way, but intermediates between different forms of a highly variable species) and is responsible with them, it's really none of my business or anyone else's to play frog police and slap them on the wrist for it. 

If these frogs were being misrepresented as something they're not, I could understand your tone. Considering these are a few isolated individuals in someone's collection and you seem to take offense to their very existence, I don't see why you can't just ignore these threads though. I understand you don't want to look down at these frogs from your high horse anymore, so why ask the mods to remove these threads because you don't like them when you can just not click the link?

I have no interest in further derailing this topic to continue beating this long-dead horse, but I felt like someone should clarify that this isn't an issue of "right and wrong" as you put it. It's a matter of your preference and your apparent inability to tolerate differing perspectives on the matter.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

well for what its worth, thanks Kevin for gettin my back a little


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

heyduke said:


> First off Troy I must say that people have been extraordinarily patient with you.
> 
> That being said I respectfully request that you stop creating more threads about your hybrids. You have several now and, in my opinion, several too many.
> 
> ...


I don't see anything in the forum rules that says what types of frogs can be posted. The frogs exist; hiding it isn't going to change that.

Perhaps people are more annoyed that there are so many "hybrid" threads as any thread that someone mentions a "hybrid" instantly turns into a crap slinging fest. 

Maybe you should take all of your hybrid hating discussions to PM's. No of course you are not going to because this is a public forum. But perhaps you should stay out of RedEye's threads if you do not enjoy his pictures. If he was opening another discussion as to the morality and practice of interbreeding two "different" frogs, perhaps then it would be appropriate for you to post your opinion on the subject. 

And at the risk of contributing to the "hybrid" discussion in this thread: He didn't use a turkey baster right? The frogs got down and dirty on their own, right? Sounds like a natural act with human influence, the same thing that could happen if a dart hitched a ride in a bushel of bananas from Panama to Columbia; unlikely but possible. I'm not saying that I don't understand the conservative side, in fact I lean more towards it, but keep the pitchforks out of every thread the guy makes. They are just pictures of very real frogs!

RedEye- Nice vivarium and frogs. Now if you'll excuse me I'm still trying to get my green tree frog to do the dirty with an Azureus; trying for this:


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

oops double post


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

First of all Kevin as for Troy misrepresenting these 
frogs, 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/33068-pics-my-froglets-pic-heavy.html 

Henceforth my so called "tone".

I do not trust that he will be responsible with these frogs and that they will not be passed off at some point as something they are not.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Wow - I had no idea there was that much "mis-information" originally released about these frogs. Here are the statements that have been tossed around about the origins of these frogs:


They were bought from a pet store as Cobalts
They are Brazilian Cobalts
They are a hybrid, but the parents are dead
There were at one point 30 froglets and 15 tads
The parents were only housed together temporarily
This was an accidental crossing
This was done purposely to "study the tinc morph"
I've supported Troy in this thread and others because I believe he has the right to do what he wants with his frogs. I did not realize that he initially tried to pass these animals off as cobalts to avoid getting flak about creating a hybrid. That is exactly the type of attitude/behaviour that we should be trying to avoid.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how these frogs came into existence at all and for what purpose. Maybe Troy could clear some of that up...

Cheers,


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Well this thread has wandered all over the place. Just a reminder to keep things above the line so to speak. Otherwise someone will come along, lock the thread, etc.

I suppose the floor has been ceded to the gentleman from Ohio to discuss the conflicting stories about these frogs. 

I am struck by the shift in sentiment that appears to be occurring in the hobby in favor of hybrids. That shift to date has been gradual but it makes me wonder what the future holds. Probably not good things. For myself that means tightening what is already a very restricted list of individuals who I will buy frogs from and where the lineage is traceable.


Putting aside where you stand on the issue, the problem of hybrids being passed off as legitimate morphs is an issue. Not easily addressed by safeguards introduced by humans but a moot point if hybrids don't exist period. 

A relatively unique aspect of this hobby is that it has not succumbed to the Frankenhybrid craze so many other species have fallen into and that purity of purpose appeals to many for a number of reasons. But perhaps that is changing and for those who value the hobby for what is was (unfortunately using the past tense here) something noble will be lost.

Bill


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Troy I would certainly advocate you pulling one sex from the big new tank they are in, enjoying these frogs is your right however removing the possibility of future clutches is your responsibility. All males would likely live in harmony together.


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## LucasJ (May 7, 2007)

swampfoxjjr said:


> Bill, I thank you for posting this and I would be truly interested in hearing the answer to it.


I'm also curious to hear the answer to this. I saw these crosses before but never knew they have already been misrepresented by the owner quite a few times....


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Oct 13, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> I've noticed all the Ohio support for the Hybrids...
> 
> Memo to self.....be wary of all Tincs from that area....


I believe most of the froggers don't practice or accept the practice of crossbreeding in Ohio. Myself included.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i misrepresented them the first time i posted them, because i used to be a little squeamish to post them here, i did it just to see what people would say about them, and to see if people would even realize that they were not "true morphs" it was in that same posted where i mentioned that they were in fact crosses and what they were a cross of, and i dont think that just because i have managed to accidentally had some crosses develop, does not mean i will ever have any other frogs do it again, all my other frogs are paired up in separate tanks, and they have always been like that. Like i've said numerous times, this was done accidentally. I have many true morph Azureus that i have bred, and they continue to breed. Whoever said the thing about ohio, is being ridiculously judgmental, and not only am i a bit offended, im sure that the other Ohioans were also a bit offended, and now im sure they look at me like its my fault. If i release these frogs to the open public for sale, yes by all means be upset with me, don't trust me....what have u....but the fact still remains all that is available to the public with these hybrids are some photographs. Last time i checked i have done nothing wrong with MY FROGS
good day


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

afterdark said:


> Wow - I had no idea there was that much "mis-information" originally released about these frogs. Here are the statements that have been tossed around about the origins of these frogs:
> 
> 
> They were bought from a pet store as Cobalts
> ...


never said they were hybrids but the parents were dead, i just made up that the parents were dead when the frog was still in discussion about what it was....never said it was done purposely either, but after they did in fact breed on ACCIDENT, then i became obsessed with the morphology, and did decide to study them....the stuff about the pet store, BYH etc etc. was just to hide the identity to see what ppl thought they were, i just wanted to hear what people thought, i apologized in that thread for making all that up although i thought it was necessary to keep the morph identity hidden for a short period of time. and its not like i posted them for sale in that post anyhow, i just showed PICTURES once again. with all that being said there still are quite a few crosses other than the 7 i am keeping. there are 6 that are going to another dedicated member here who also wants to learn about the morphology. and the rest will be givin to my family members, and they all know what the stance is on these frogs, so no eggs if any are created from these will be culled, hope that helped clear some things up


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

So explain how this was an "accident"? Origianaly there were " 4 eggs on a rock." And then supposedly the parents were separated. You have seven, your giving away six, and yet another undisclosed number.

You keep insisting that these will not make it into the hobby, yet you now post that you are now distributing them to other people.

You keep saying these are for "scientific" purposes and you are just "studying" them. What do these studies entail? What is science going to gain from your great experiment?

You keep asking us to trust you yet you have continuously LIED about nearly everything involving these frogs. To me your credibility is shot. Not that it matters what I or anyone else thinks, after all they are YOUR frogs and you certainly see no need to keep them responsibly.


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

Before this is locked and to not further hijack your thread I would like to invite Troy and anyone else who would like to discuss this further to visit this thread.

http://dartden.com/viewtopic.php?t=3621&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

heyduke said:


> So explain how this was an "accident"? Origianaly there were " 4 eggs on a rock." And then supposedly the parents were separated. You have seven, your giving away six, and yet another undisclosed number.
> 
> You keep insisting that these will not make it into the hobby, yet you now post that you are now distributing them to other people.
> 
> ...


they will not make it into the hobby, im not just giving them away to random members, i have had many discussions with this person..... do u know how many ppl ive denied to sell these frogs to?? at least 10..... believe me if i wanted these frogs in the hobby they would have been released already...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Troy,

YOU started this thread

YOU provided MORE pics....more updates

NOW you must deal with the community response.

We don't go headhunting you. We don't spend sleepless nights thinking about ways to say bad things about you on this board. We don't hate you or have a personal grudge against you.

If fact, we have been very patient, but you keep posting new hybrid threads and the new people are getting advice and ideas that do not have the well being of the animals foremost in mind...and that's where the counterbalance begins.

If I were you.....I'd keep a lower profile on those frogs. Why not start to work with another species and post on those. Don't you want to work with another species of frog?....or do you just want to stick to those Tincs?

Finally....all it's going to take is for one PM or email to surface in the community where there is a communication from you that proposes transfering or selling those frogs to someone else....Then how well recieved do you think your posts will be?

There are many respectable breeders in Ohio......hope it stays that way.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

oh golly,

I just saw that your post....._ARE_ you transfering some of those frogs to someone else?


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## boombotty (Oct 12, 2005)

Great! Now what are you or these people you are releasing these to going to do with them if and when you or them get out of the hobby? Remember the life spans of these.
Scott


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Topics like these are good to raise awareness within a community. How do we know similar frogs haven't been released in the past? How can we be so sure our "pure" lineages haven't been contaminated from a previous occurrence under another owner? Purchasing from reputable / respectable people is one step in the right direction with regards to personal responsibility of buyers and sellers. It also helps strengthen the market demand for those who are dedicated to proper breeding activities and deserve the business. Another thing we can do is monitor specimen lineages in studbooks such as FrogTracks, ISIS, ASN, etc., and provide that history with specimens as they are sold or passed on to other owners.

On a side note, I am absolutely not pro-"hybrid" (a term that gets thrown around a lot.. but I'll generalize to the mixing of lineages which are otherwise not of the same population), but I am curious if all the passionate folk who are anti-hybrid and concerned with keeping frogs like their wild type ancestors are unintentionally selectively breeding frogs, or contributing to inbreeding depression by breeding siblings with one another. Sometimes you don't have a choice but many times you do.

We should all look to better ourselves and our practices before we attempt to educate others, which is equally important of course.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks for the explanation Troy. However, I feel that something new has come up in your posts that contradicts your position to not release these frogs into the hobby.

You state you are keeping 7 for your 150G (fine by me), giving away 6 to "responsible hobbyists" (who are these people? Who decides that they are responsible hobbyists? How many frogs are they getting?) and giving away the rest to your family. So from the total of 45 possible frogs (you stated 30 froglets - 15 tads) we KNOW that 7 are going to be kept responsibly and not bred. The other 38 frogs are going to people who have not posted what their intentions with the frogs are. For all we know they intend to market them as a new morph and sell them as such. 

I'm sure that by now you realize that just by posting that these frogs exist, you have opened a door that you can't close. The people who are upset that you are going to be distributing these frogs have every right to be angry because the now the threat of hybrid morphs is very real and that is something that most hobbyists are striving to avoid. The fact that you have lied about these frogs on numerous occasions only cements the belief that you knew full well that people were going to be upset by your actions.

No one really has control over this situation but you Troy. I hope you think about the hobby as a whole before you decide to give these frogs to other people. I would encourage you to keep them all in your hands or cull them - do you want to be the one blamed for starting the dart frog "hybrid craze"? If it was me, I'd rather not deal with all the flak.

Looking forward to your response - let's keep it civil everyone!

Cheers,


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

hahahahahah i just read the thread on dartden, speak up on here!!..... i was actually laughing at how cowardly some of the comments on there were, anyways i do work with other species ive posted numerous times on pics of my azureus that i gave successfully bred, i have 8 sub adults, and a ton of juvis, and tads. but you know what, no one notices those posts cuz they are not controversial. I just think its funny how some of the ppl have all the ideas and schemes as to what im gonna do with these frogs. its getting annoying to me, and all im gonna say is im done posting cross breed threads, the minds on some of you are too narrow minded.... maybe this is why im an atheist as well, i dont like believing in something that i may never know. I dont just listen to "the man" cuz its "the man" im a free spriit, with all that being said, i am a considerate person and i realize the harm that could happen if these frogs were released to the public, and as ive said for the millionth time, they will not be released to the public. and for some reason Philsuma.... u act like u are this incredibly experienced hobbyiest, yet you are currently working with Azureus, Auratus, Leucs, and Vents. No offense but ive worked with many more frogs than that list. So i don't care if my credibility is out the window, i really dont. No matter what i say ppl will think what they want to think im going to do with the frogs. 
as far as the accedent thing. COMMON ive explained it 100 times!! there were no breeding huts, petris in the tank what so ever, all my other frogs were paired up and in their own tanks. These two fro some odd reason decided to breed, after they did, i became interested and wanted to let them go and see what happens..... These were also the very first frogs that ever bred for me. So i was extremely interested. I didnt know if the egg clutches were going to make it? thru tads and what not, so i let them go until i had some juvis then once i had juvies i stopped collecting eggs. thats why there are so many, i had only juvi die for unknown reasons. every single egg that i collected made it to frog. So yes while the initial breeding was accidental, i did contribute AFTER the initial breeding for it to continue. U can twist my words in anyway that want, the only thread i lied in was the post where i Pmd kyle and told him to tell every i was sorry for what i had done and released the fact that they were crosses. 
last but not least who ever wrote that i had them for sale a while back for citronellas is full of u know what!!! absolutely ridiculous act of coward....

rich- sorry about the painting, i started an actual job, not just side painting and never got around to painting that nancy..... i still have it in mind for the future and like i promised, i will do a one for any future charity events besides, i thought u said it wasnt until the fall of 09?? maybe i was wrong.... and to boot, i did a commissioned painting for some1 of guitars, and was expecting 1500 bucks for it and the person has left me with the painting for over 4 months now.... still says hes coming to pick it up sometimes soon, so i had some unfortunate chain of events happen to me as of late


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Troy,

Funny....did you actually coordinate all three of your fellow supporters to give me three bad rep ratings?..and all at the same time?

Impressive if you did.....rally your supporters, I guess.

But, if I'm a betting man....and I just so happen to be....

I don't think you are going to weather this latest thread posting like you did in the past.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

im actually not sure what ur referring to about the red marks at the same time?? what are u talking about?


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

"i just read the thread on dartden, speak up on here"

If you are referring to me, Troy, I have said nothing over here for the main reason that most have beaten me to it and I don't have much to add. 

But, for the sake of not being cowardly

I do not approve either--especially with these being released to others.

I worry that you post these just to provoke reactions and contention from others.

I'm not a fan of the avatar. Not the sexiest pic... =)


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

afterdark said:


> No one really has control over this situation but you Troy. I hope you think about the hobby as a whole before you decide to give these frogs to other people. I would encourage you to keep them all in your hands or cull them - do you want to be the one blamed for starting the dart frog "hybrid craze"? If it was me, I'd rather not deal with all the flak.


I have to agree with afterdark. I mean I still think Troy has handled the situation pretty well thus far. The fact that he admitted that he didn't initially tell the truth about the frogs says something about the guy.

I can see how all the attention these frogs are getting could influence someone else to try and simulate this would be bad, so i also understand all the negative things people are posting also.

Of course it's really none our business, but maybe if the "responsible member" recieving some of the frogs would post, that would help with some of the negativeness...Also I think I would opt for keeping the one going to your relatives.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

yeah i wasnt going for the sexy look mike, just thought it was a pretty silly picture, ive got to go to an appt right now, but i look fwd to debating more on this after....ttyl fellow froggers


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

I would like to thank whomever left me negative rep and "forgot" to leave their name. 

I do understand the consequences of hybridization; I just think this has been beaten to death. I don't know what Troy plans to do with the frogs but I realize that I have no control over it. We all know that Troy is well aware of the majority stance on the subject, he is still going to do whatever he wants to do. I also understand that the "founders" of the hobby have gone through a lot of trouble to keep this hobby "pure". But you have to realize that when mankind gets involved in something it is only a matter of time before "unnatural" things occur. 

How many people own dart frogs that are not part of the hobby or forum community? There could be people mixing breeds right now without anyone's knowledge. Those people could be selling them to others that are not part of the dart hobby. I have 3 darts, I had no idea that they could breed together. Before I bought my darts I didn't even know they were available. I have since separated my darts but there are many people out there that are uniformed like I was and may never know. My darts grew up together and never had a problem until about a month ago and I was told by the breeder I bought them from that they would be fine all kept together. 

One thing that I think is embarrassing is the fact that many of you think that these perfectly healthy, well kept frogs should be KILLED (no it isn't euthinazation because the frogs aren't sick or dying). Quite frankly I think that it is disgusting to even suggest this. The only time that I would have suggested stopping the breed would have been when they were eggs but that ship sailed long ago. 

In closing, if you are going to give me negative feedback don't do it anonymously. If you have something to say to me then say it "in person" or at least as close to in person as you can get with text- leave your name.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

the rep system is anonymous to keep flame wars from sprouting up all over the place
It wasn't me, just saying
I wouldn't say anything that way I wouldn't say to someones face first


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

Yeah I know the reason, I'm just letting who ever did it know that they don't have to worry about flaming from me. They didn't say anything bad or offensive which is why I don't think they should be anonymous.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

some1 actually left me some red rep, asking why dont i start my own hybrid board..... well maybe ill start a tinctorius cross breed board.... but i mean lets be serious, dont leave rep unless your going to be sincere..... i dont promote cross breed buying or selling, so dont act like im this activist who is tryn to make every1 accept them.... im not, but i do think its good to get pictures of them out there, for there arent too many examples available on the net that ive looked for, 

say i did start a crossbreed board, what would happen then, the member would accept it?? then it would be totally ok to do this??? no it would still cause damage to the hobby, so any further sarcastic remarks you'd like to make to me please do via PM, not red rep, thanks


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

JLHayes13 said:


> I would like to thank whomever left me negative rep and "forgot" to leave their name.
> 
> I do understand the consequences of hybridization; I just think this has been beaten to death. I don't know what Troy plans to do with the frogs but I realize that I have no control over it. We all know that Troy is well aware of the majority stance on the subject, he is still going to do whatever he wants to do. I also understand that the "founders" of the hobby have gone through a lot of trouble to keep this hobby "pure". But you have to realize that when mankind gets involved in something it is only a matter of time before "unnatural" things occur.
> 
> ...



i know of people that do cross breed tincs, they just have not gone public like i have had. and hes right about ppl not even on the board, i just joined the board last january but have been keeping darts since 03, so there are alot of ppl out there that do not know the stance on hybridization, and when i first got into the hobby i talked to several well respected and well established breeders that said it would fine to house all sorts of tincs in the same tank.....


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

JLHayes13 said:


> One thing that I think is embarrassing is the fact that many of you think that these perfectly healthy, well kept frogs should be KILLED (no it isn't euthinazation because the frogs aren't sick or dying). Quite frankly I think that it is disgusting to even suggest this. The only time that I would have suggested stopping the breed would have been when they were eggs but that ship sailed long ago.


Did someone actually say these frogs should be killed? If so, I missed that post. The only things I have read was people saying that the frogs should remain with the OP and himself only.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> i know of people that do cross breed tincs, they just have not gone public like i have had. and hes right about ppl not even on the board, i just joined the board last january but have been keeping darts since 03, so there are alot of ppl out there that do not know the stance on hybridization, and when i first got into the hobby i talked to several well respected and well established breeders that said it would fine to house all sorts of tincs in the same tank.....


well....lets hear from some of the other scientists, breeders or other big names...

Who are they? Are they hiding? Afraid?....if so why?


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

elmoisfive said:


> Well this thread has wandered all over the place. Just a reminder to keep things above the line so to speak. Otherwise someone will come along, lock the thread, etc.
> 
> I suppose the floor has been ceded to the gentleman from Ohio to discuss the conflicting stories about these frogs.
> 
> ...


I think the shift in sentiment may be because people are not allowed to speak up against these kinds of practices in any meaningful way for fear of being banned or having the thread locked. And by meaningful way I mean verbal abuse  All kidding aside it is a double edged sword. By allowing people who hybridize to post and not be "chastized", they will come out of the woodwork and show their "creations". So at least we know who they are, but by the same token for newcomers who are likely to come to this board as a souce of expertise, these practices will start to appear acceptable.

As far as these animals in particular, based on the posts of creator, it is unfortunately too late. These will make it into the hobby, so be on the lookout for them.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

you guys will be looking for quite some time, cuz they will not make it into the hobby


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## buddha (Oct 17, 2006)

Since this has gone waaaay off original topic. But i will say that i didn't support you, but believed in anyones right to do what they wanted and shouldn't get negatives because of what they believe. I also read your past posts. In an older post you said something like "These guys will never get out of my possession" (Para-phrasing). Then i see that you are going to pass out some of these out to "the hobbie". Even if its to a respectable person that will care for them for their lives. I also value life and do not believe in senseless killings. What happens if This gentleman does quit the hobby.. and as someone else mentioned "If he had to get rid of his frogs" and passed them off to another to whom he thought was respectable? Whom may not be respectable. And i got negatives with a "Haha..haha" comment for asking about mixing thumbnails and terestrials. it just saddens me.. to me.. that these frogs are into the hobby. And i still believe in a persons right to do what ever they want. But be responcible. and i believe troy you already ruined that. But do not believe in someones right to give negative because they do not agree with what they type. Very disappointed. -Buddha


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> I think the shift in sentiment may be because people are not allowed to speak up against these kinds of practices in any meaningful way for fear of being banned or having the thread locked. And by meaningful way I mean verbal abuse  All kidding aside it is a double edged sword. By allowing people who hybridize to post and not be "chastized", they will come out of the woodwork and show their "creations". So at least we know who they are, but by the same token for newcomers who are likely to come to this board as a souce of expertise, these practices will start to appear acceptable.
> 
> As far as these animals in particular, based on the posts of creator, it is unfortunately too late. These will make it into the hobby, so be on the lookout for them.


Robb,

Good points and you are in my circle 

Bill


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

I just hope that the outcome of this is that people entering the hobby will realize that this is unacceptable. And if you flaunt it you will end up with a big mess on your hands.

When I first started I also wanted to mix frogs. I think we were all there once. But I read and researched BEFORE I acquired any frogs. I realized that conservation was as appealing as the beauty of these creatures.

I usually steer clear of these forum arguments but the repeated threads and the acceptance from a kinder gentler board really got to me.

Unfortunately I fear that the hobby is going to split into two camps and the genetic stock is going to shrink even more. Lets face it, there will probably be no more importations of many frogs in the hobby today. They will fade into extinction due to disease, climate change, and deforestation. 

With that in mind I feel we have an obligation to keep, as much as we can, naturally occurring morphs as the predominant livestock in the hobby as they will most likely disappear in nature.

I think we can see how a little experimentation can snowball into a huge mess.

As for, hopefully, some constructive advice on what to do now......

Registering these frogs with ASN or Frogtracks might help keep the D. Troytorus from snowballing any further. I would certainly hate to see the destruction of any healthy creature.

And as a side note... 

Read, research, and take advice when you ask for it.

Don't let your ego dictate your actions, think about what is REALY involved.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Keeping a pet should not have an exit strategy.

And foremost, we have a responsibility to any living creature in our ward, we don't OWN we CARETAKE.


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## AzureFrog (Feb 3, 2009)

Very well said heyduke!

Peace


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> well....lets hear from some of the other scientists, breeders or other big names...
> 
> Who are they? Are they hiding? Afraid?....if so why?


I could throw out the name of a known breeder that told me that it was ok to mix different breeds in the same viv, but that is looked down upon...



divingne1 said:


> Did someone actually say these frogs should be killed? If so, I missed that post. The only things I have read was people saying that the frogs should remain with the OP and himself only.


I can't find it but if you look at Troy's other hybrid threads a couple of people are for killing the frogs regardless of who has them; most others are for killing them if he somehow gets out of the hobby. Disgusting


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

rmelancon said:


> I think the shift in sentiment may be because people are not allowed to speak up against these kinds of practices in any meaningful way for fear of being banned or having the thread locked. And by meaningful way I mean verbal abuse  All kidding aside it is a double edged sword. By allowing people who hybridize to post and not be "chastized", they will come out of the woodwork and show their "creations". So at least we know who they are, but by the same token for newcomers who are likely to come to this board as a souce of expertise, these practices will start to appear acceptable.
> 
> As far as these animals in particular, based on the posts of creator, it is unfortunately too late. These will make it into the hobby, so be on the lookout for them.


I could not agree with this more. I got lambasted for speaking out in the last thread and felt very irritated by the unintentional hypocrisy. Why should it be ok to post nine threads about this and be totally immune to anything but internet pats on the back? Why am I "small minded" and "a broken record" for stating an opposing position to a serious problem in many hobbies outside of (but including) the dendrobatid world? When you do something dishonest or foolish and boast about it on a public forum are you not at the very least acquiescing to if not outright seeking the appropriate feedback?

If people truly come here to learn then the more valuable lesson and majority opinion should be given at least equal if not greater opportunity to be heard for the new folks.


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

lol the anonymous reputation messages continue... Please, who ever you are just send me a PM and we can discuss the issue one on one; I am more than willing to discuss my opinions on the subject. I am not defending "this lying immature punk" (your words, not mine). I am just questioning the need to bash every thread that this guy starts; especially since a couple of the bashers are not making themselves look very intelligent or mature. 

Other than not having a concise story, Troy has conducted himself in a respectful and mature manner.


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Oct 13, 2008)

heyduke said:


> I just hope that the outcome of this is that people entering the hobby will realize that this is unacceptable. And if you flaunt it you will end up with a big mess on your hands.
> 
> When I first started I also wanted to mix frogs. I think we were all there once. But I read and researched BEFORE I acquired any frogs. I realized that conservation was as appealing as the beauty of these creatures.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what I wished I said!


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

JL,
Ignore the rep thingie, It's all bs smoke and mirrors. Voice your opinion and LEARN, as I am still doing, and don't take offense to little red boxes. Semantics to keep the weak of mind trudging along.

You received bad info on the frogs you are currently keeping...and that really sucks. And when you posted about your concerns you were, for the lack of a better word, attacked. And that really, really, sucks as well.

What you have to understand here is that Troy has continually deceived us with his posts from the beginning. Don't take my word for it, click his name, review all posts and make up your own mind.

Welcome to the hobby and congrats on resolving your first bumps in the road. 

Now as you research care and maintenance also look into conservation. I think in the end you will find that responsible care and husbandry of these amazing animals DO go hand in hand with conservation and management.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

duke are u saying deceived you on ALL posts, or just the cross breed ones?

cuz i would have to disagree if your saying that about ALL my posts.
i feel that i've helped quite a few ppl on this board. . . but im most likely gonna get out of the forum scene, its pretty frustrating. . . ill just lurk around for the most part... you may see some of my true breed animals pop up in the classified, but i dont really expect to many ppl to buy them since they will think since ive crossed before, these must be crosses as well? Which i feel is really stupid. but whatever.....OUT


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

AzureFrog said:


> Hey, wait a minute, I'm from Ohio and the only hybrid I get into is my Prius.
> 
> Peace,
> Shawn


I've read this whole thread (so far) and I can't believe no one commented on this post. It made me "laugh out loud" and spit my wine, 

I know this is a serious topic, but good one!

Deb


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

I think the passion here is warranted. We ALL have a right to be concerned where these frogs end up. It's not a personal thing against Troy, although it seems that some of the "best practices" seem to have not been followed. The reality however is that with frogs like these getting out there, it weakens the credibility of the species in terms of having confidence that our lines are true. There are a lot of people on this forum, as well as in organizations like ASN who work very hard at tracking the lines and registering their frogs. While I haven't read the other threads, I tried to stay objective while reading this one. However, there were a few good questions. If you are not keeping all of them, how can you say for sure that they won't get into the hobby? Are the people receiving these frogs willing to be listed? If not, why not? This is what personally scares me. I could see these being sold at a show to a noobie (or even an experienced frogger for that matter) as Alanis, or even worse, sitting on a vendor table as "tinc morph".


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

well i can assure im not goin to sell them at any shows, but yes the person who i was gonna send them to went under the name Woodsman, or Richard Lynch, but i haven't heard from him, sooooo that was the only person, my family all live in youngstown, and that was really just a suggestion of what to do with some of them, but it seems like people would rather see them euthanize, sooo i really just wanna be done with this thread, for i just wanted ppl to look at the pics and not get into this like we have before in some of my other past threads, i fouond myself repeating myself many many times cuz ppl didnt read the other threads. sooo im done


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Corpus Callosum said:


> Topics like these are good to raise awareness within a community. How do we know similar frogs haven't been released in the past? How can we be so sure our "pure" lineages haven't been contaminated from a previous occurrence under another owner? Purchasing from reputable / respectable people is one step in the right direction with regards to personal responsibility of buyers and sellers. It also helps strengthen the market demand for those who are dedicated to proper breeding activities and deserve the business. Another thing we can do is monitor specimen lineages in studbooks such as FrogTracks, ISIS, ASN, etc., and provide that history with specimens as they are sold or passed on to other owners.
> 
> On a side note, I am absolutely not pro-"hybrid" (a term that gets thrown around a lot.. but I'll generalize to the mixing of lineages which are otherwise not of the same population), but I am curious if all the passionate folk who are anti-hybrid and concerned with keeping frogs like their wild type ancestors are unintentionally selectively breeding frogs, or contributing to inbreeding depression by breeding siblings with one another. Sometimes you don't have a choice but many times you do.
> 
> We should all look to better ourselves and our practices before we attempt to educate others, which is equally important of course.


great post michael!


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

heyduke said:


> Most of us are quite frankly sickened by seeing them for MANY reasons.QUOTE]
> 
> I'm just glad someone said it. It is disgusting to see such a lack of respect to the hobby.


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## heyduke (Sep 19, 2006)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> duke are u saying deceived you on ALL posts, or just the cross breed ones?
> 
> cuz i would have to disagree if your saying that about ALL my posts.
> i feel that i've helped quite a few ppl on this board. . . but im most likely gonna get out of the forum scene, its pretty frustrating. . . ill just lurk around for the most part... you may see some of my true breed animals pop up in the classified, but i dont really expect to many ppl to buy them since they will think since ive crossed before, these must be crosses as well? Which i feel is really stupid. but whatever.....OUT


Sorry Troy I should have said your "cross" posts...my mistake...seriously. 

I was just trying to let people know to make up their own minds. Anything i have to say is purely from my prospective, which you may or not agree with.

I think I have stated my reasons for the oposition of this thread clearly and have also tried to offer some suggestions. 

By the way my name is Sean Pennington....again my fault for not having it in my signature...If I have a dispute with some one they should at least know my name...sorry Troy.


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Philsuma- i do have to agree with this post from troy. when i got into the hobby 2+ years ago the breeder that i got my azureus and leuc from also told me that i can keep them safely together. true the likelyhood of the two breeding is not as good a two tincs, but not one time did anything of hybridization come about in our conversation, or the necessity of them being seperated once they reach a certain age. i found that out when coming here. come to find out once i joined the board, that the company i bought them from is actually one of our sponcers. i would like to have them remain nameless b/c the quality of the frogs i have gotten from them have been excellent, and i wish to continue to do business. 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> i talked to several well respected and well established breeders that said it would fine to house all sorts of tincs in the same tank.....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

twohoops21 said:


> Philsuma- i do have to agree with this post from troy. when i got into the hobby 2+ years ago the breeder that i got my azureus and leuc from also told me that i can keep them safely together. true the likelyhood of the two breeding is not as good a two tincs, but not one time did anything of hybridization come about in our conversation, or the necessity of them being seperated once they reach a certain age. i found that out when coming here. come to find out once i joined the board, that the company i bought them from is actually one of our sponcers. i would like to have them remain nameless b/c the quality of the frogs i have gotten from them have been excellent, and i wish to continue to do business.


Ok....we gotta seperate the mixed species issue from the core of this thread....which is Hybrid frogs.

A good breeder does NOT sell frogs to a new person and condone mixed species vivs for a new person, let alone hybridization.

Did that breeder / company tell you it was "ok" to have them breed and then transfer the offspring to other people?

Why remain nameless?? If he was a professional and proud of this animals ect, then one would think he would post on DB and support Troy and this thread.


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Ok....we gotta seperate the mixed species issue from the core of this thread....which is Hybrid frogs.
> 
> A good breeder does NOT sell frogs to a new person and condone mixed species vivs for a new person, let alone hybridization.
> 
> ...


i understand spererating the whole mixed species/ hybrid frog discussion. got it. my point was simply that some of these questions on breeding/ crossbreeding these frogs do not get brought up as often as they should when purchasing them. thats all...not attacking you as you obviously think...just replying to a statement.

as for the new froggers not being able to get frogs from a "good" breeder...how are they supposed to get them? at a local pet shop where the owners dont even know what kind of frog they are selling? does that mean new froggers dont deserve good quality frogs to start their collection?

also...i will not speek negatively on the behalf of that breeder simply because that person made a mistake and not informing a "newbie" on a topic, while some of fault is due to my lack of research. i feel that that would be childish and tasteless to do so. that person does not need to be singled out and lectured also...


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

heyduke said:


> JL,
> Ignore the rep thingie, It's all bs smoke and mirrors. Voice your opinion and LEARN, as I am still doing, and don't take offense to little red boxes. Semantics to keep the weak of mind trudging along.
> 
> You received bad info on the frogs you are currently keeping...and that really sucks. And when you posted about your concerns you were, for the lack of a better word, attacked. And that really, really, sucks as well.
> ...


I get what your saying. I'm not concerned with the red mark; I could care less. My point is that if someone has a problem with my posts then bring it out in the thread or in a PM if they want to keep it private; don't hide behind the rep feature on this site. 



Philsuma said:


> Ok....we gotta seperate the mixed species issue from the core of this thread....which is Hybrid frogs.
> 
> A good breeder does NOT sell frogs to a new person and condone mixed species vivs for a new person, let alone hybridization.
> 
> ...


I think the mixed species issue is the same as the hybrid issue. I was told mixing was ok by the breeder I bought from and so I had them in the same enclosure. If I hadn't gotten on this forum my tinc and azureus could have mated and I wouldn't have even known that there are people of the opinion that that is wrong. I separated my frogs because one was becoming more dominant than the others. 

In short, I think that a breeder telling someone that it is okay for them to be in the same tank is alluding that it is okay for them to breed. And the breeder I bought from didn't go as far as mixed breeding let alone not dispersing them to other people. 

Philsuma, you and others have done about all you can realistically do by creating/supporting a breed lineage tracking resource. I would hate to see the prices on "pure" bred frogs sky rocket as a result of the presence of "mutts" as it would reduce the number of people that get to enjoy these species as they came from the wild. 

On a side note I would like to know if ASN takes precautions for inbreeding of the lines that currently exist in the hobby. If it is as we all fear and the darts start disappearing completely from the wild, inbreeding in the hobby will eventually become a problem.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

JLHayes13 said:


> On a side note I would like to know if ASN takes precautions for inbreeding of the lines that currently exist in the hobby. If it is as we all fear and the darts start disappearing completely from the wild, inbreeding in the hobby will eventually become a problem.


The ASN does not own/control your frogs. It provides a studbook to register and track your animal's lineage, as well as offers guidelines in taxon management plans to manage captive populations for genetic integrity and wild type characteristics. We can provide the tools and resources but in the end it is up to you, the hobbyist, to take those precautions and manage your animals properly.


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

Corpus Callosum said:


> The ASN does not own/control your frogs. It provides a studbook to register and track your animal's lineage, as well as offers guidelines in taxon management plans to manage captive populations for genetic integrity and wild type characteristics. We can provide the tools and resources but in the end it is up to you, the hobbyist, to take those precautions and manage your animals properly.


Cool, thanks Corpus.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

twohoops21 said:


> ...not attacking you as you obviously think...just replying to a statement.


There's no attacking anyone....this is just debate.



> as for the new froggers not being able to get frogs from a "good" breeder...how are they supposed to get them?


Yep...a good breeder is someone who will make 100% certain the frogs he is selling will stand a good chance of being cared for correctly. I have turned down transfering frogs to an 18 year old kid recently, because he was not mature enough or ready for them....thats called being responsible and working towards the good of the hobby. There are breeders that don't care and don't even want to know anything about where their frogs are going - do you want to get your frogs from this guy?



> also...i will not speek negatively on the behalf of that breeder simply because that person made a mistake and not informing a "newbie" on a topic, while some of fault is due to my lack of research. i feel that that would be childish and tasteless to do so. that person does not need to be singled out and lectured also...


A mistake? Like selling 4 different species of dart frogs to a person who never even owned a frog before and saying they can all be housed together? You mean that kind of mistake?

Yeah you're right. No need to bring that up.....no biggie......it's cool, whoever did that....simple slip of the mind


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

This thread just totally overtook me in my Early Modern Philosophy class, thanks a lot guys 



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> i misrepresented them the first time i posted them, because i used to be a little squeamish to post them here, i did it just to see what people would say about them, and to see if people would even realize that they were not "true morphs"


I don't know Troy, I don't know his intentions, I don't have any personal grudge against him. But this statement I find a little amusing. Just seems to me that if someone was squeamish about posting frogs on here, that person would _avoid_ misrepresenting their frogs with the intention to see if people would realize that they're "true morphs." Seems like any experienced frogger who realized "that's not a 'true morph'" would immediately attack someone for the misrepresentation. If someone were squeamish about posting it seems like that person would avoid being attacked at all costs.



As far as the hybridizing/mixing species goes... I'd say it's similar. I bought my first frogs six months ago at a local reptile expo. Back then I didn't understand anything about them, it was an impulse buy. Since buying them I've inherited the "no hybrids" standpoint. But back then I thought it would be cool to see what kind of colors I could get (yes, I'm admitting my former ignorance). I talked to one reputable breeder on this board (Tuckinrim8) who said I should absolutely not put two species in the same viv. I talked to another breeder who told me what I wanted to hear "yeah, you can keep a leuc and a cobalt in the same tank." I had to ask "do you think they'll breed?" "If you try hard enough, probably. I'll bet you could probably get some pretty cool colours out of those too!" I think that many of the breeders out there understand that hybrids are frowned upon (I asked the breeder in question about Tuckinrim's admonition to keep them away from each other and he said some breeders tend to "stick their noses in the air" and "look down on hybrids" but that there was really nothing wrong with them), but they are more concerned about the money. Willing to tell a customer what they want to hear in order to get make the sale....

Needless to say, I'm thrilled to be a part of this forum now where I have a strong community willing to put me on the right path to keeping healthy, happy, and ecologically "pure" frogs.

I'm sure I could make plenty more comments, but those are the two main points right now.

Oh, and the Prius comment was killer.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

.....as all the pro-hybrid posters skulk away.....embarrased and over-ruled but vowing silently to "continue the fight for the ultimate frog" !

One day....they'll be back 

...man...did I just channel Rich for a second there?


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> .....as all the pro-hybrid posters skulk away.....embarrased and over-ruled but vowing silently to "continue the fight for the ultimate frog" !
> 
> One day....they'll be back
> 
> ...*man...did I just channel Rich for a second there?*


Lol I was just thinking that Lol


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm feeling a "channel" myself, Phil...

..._And watch all your spelling/grammar errors!_...

Whoa. That was surreal...


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## buddha (Oct 17, 2006)

Its not that people wouldnt buy your True breeds. That some would be scared to.. Most would ask for proof of the true breed. Since you eventually came clean about the hybrid. i would be more worried about getting a hybrid from someone you gave one or few to. Im new with buying from People, I getting/got frogs from trusted people. Personally if i was to buy from ya, you would have to jump through many a hoops. -Buddha



RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> duke are u saying deceived you on ALL posts, or just the cross breed ones?
> 
> cuz i would have to disagree if your saying that about ALL my posts.
> i feel that i've helped quite a few ppl on this board. . . but im most likely gonna get out of the forum scene, its pretty frustrating. . . ill just lurk around for the most part... you may see some of my true breed animals pop up in the classified, but i dont really expect to many ppl to buy them since they will think since ive crossed before, these must be crosses as well? Which i feel is really stupid. but whatever.....OUT


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> but im most likely gonna get out of the forum scene, its pretty frustrating. . . ill just lurk around for the most part... you may see some of my true breed animals pop up in the classified, but i dont really expect to many ppl to buy them since they will think since ive crossed before, these must be crosses as well? Which i feel is really stupid. but whatever.....OUT


Troy,

Only you can decide what you chose to do going forward on this and many other things in life. I would ask you to reflect upon your experience and what conclusion(s) you should derive from it as opposed to simply dwelling on what you apparently believe is unfair treatment from some.

There are many (including myself) who disagree with your production of these hybrids but in truth this new thread merely resurrected the past issue of your dishonesty about them until you were forced to acknowledge the obvious. The subsequent confusion about your intentions simply added to the fire. These are merely the facts of the situation.

This hobby runs to a great degree on trust. That trust is slowly gained but easily lost. A hard lesson to be sure.

One path would have you reject that reality with an uncertain future in the hobby and yet another would ask you to consider how one regains that trust. Hopefully you will make the right choice for both us and you.

Bill


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Well stated Bill,

i have realized what has happened from being untruthful in the whole situation, and yes i do regret it, but its all to late for this as of now, like I've stated before, these frogs have gone to no one as of now. 

i understand that in the future any tinctorius frog i post for sale, will be questioned to the fullest. That's just something ill have to learn to deal with. If you read what Aaron said, i have not lied to him at all. I had no reason to, i trust Aaron and I feel that Aaron trusts me, so i feel i can tell him things and not ridiculed for it. I understand why member feel the need to ridicule me, that why i feel i had to lie. All i know is that i have not lied since that infamous post, and i do not plan to in the future. Hopefully ppl will look at me as an experienced frogger in the tinctorius species, for i also have many many azureus tads froglets and sub adults right now, i will be releasing into the classifieds soon here. I also hope to become quite experienced in the Phyllobates terribilis species, so i plan on trying to being my name out of the slumps, and i realize i need to do everything by the book to do so.

One thing i still need to get off my chest im not sure if ppl saw me write this before. The crosses i have were NEVER FOR SALE.... ive only listed in the classifieds ONCE and it was My Azureus when they were about 4 months oow, and no1 bought. I have not listed since. So whoever made that up about me selling these crosses as citronellas is full of it. 

So yes for a short time i tried to pass them off as cobalts of some sort (for pictures,NOT for sale), but like i stated before i felt there was a need for the lies


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> .....as all the pro-hybrid posters skulk away.....embarrased and over-ruled but vowing silently to "continue the fight for the ultimate frog" !
> 
> One day....they'll be back
> 
> ...man...did I just channel Rich for a second there?


LOL, I can understand that comment if it were a weekend or a few days have gone by, but unfortunately work keeps some of us away from the board and waiting for the next post. My office would look down upon that if I would get busted!  Man you can't wait to debate can you? lol Wait until later tonight, that is when most of the postings happened last night.

You did channel Rich there for a second, BTW where did he go anyway? I have not read any funny posts lately.

Anyway, who said they were for hybrids? While looking back through the posts i must have missed that. Unless you are referring to Troy, but i think he gets the point now that everyone has taken their turn.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

"The frogs have gone to no one AS OF NOW" I think remarks like that are what make some people so furious. I would have no ill feelings about the frogs if I new they would never leave your house and I think others feel the same.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

My only hope is that newcomers will be interested enough to read past the first page. The 6 pages could seem a bit daunting, and the overall impression from this tread is vastly different from opinions just on the first page.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i mean the only person i mentioned was that richard guy and i feel we should not talk about him unless he wants to chime in so, well let him explain why he wants to have 6 of them, it made sense to me thats why i agreed to give him 6, but like i said they are all in my possession right now, so we shall wait on that


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

otis07 said:


> My only hope is that newcomers will be interested enough to read past the first page. The 6 pages could seem a bit daunting, and the overall impression from this tread is vastly different from opinions just on the first page.


Very true, I think that just because someone likes the look of the frogs does not mean they support or not support hybrids. I myself would have never known they were hybrids until the subject was brought up many months ago, i just appreciated their coloration and uniqueness.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

To be honest, I would enjoy a couple( I am not asking, I wouldn't even pay for the shipping). I'm sure others could have and love them too, but I can't help but feel like you and your frogs are the antichrist, if you will, of our hobby. I enjoy feeling like I am doing something special by raising and maybe breeding my frogs. There are very few things I enjoy more than my darts and I, like others, really have a concern for the future of the hobby. I am afraid that seeing this will make people feel like it is ok, and even if one person looks up to you and decides to mix, thats one too many. I would like to add that I would never want anyone to leave the hobby or forum. I know very few people who do not think I am crazy for devoting so much time and money to my frogs. I look at all of us as a family of sorts with a common love and interest that is unique.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

twohoops21 said:


> . I myself would have never known they were hybrids until the subject was brought up many months ago.


 
......and, you don't find anything dangerous about this? 

Unknowing hobbyists buying frogs and they have no idea what they are ?

then add the misrepresentation.....


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## LucasJ (May 7, 2007)

The most disturbing thing about this thread is that troy is still willing to release these frogs into the hobby. Anybody that keeps dart frogs is the hobby.


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> ......and, you don't find anything dangerous about this?
> 
> Unknowing hobbyists buying frogs and they have no idea what they are ?
> 
> then add the misrepresentation.....


Yes you are right, I am not going against that at all. In fact i am not going against anything you have been saying really, which is why i don't understand our debate (meaning just you and me)?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

twohoops21 said:


> Yes you are right, I am not going against that at all. In fact i am not going against anything you have been saying really, which is why i don't understand our debate (meaning just you and me)?


Ok...sounds good to me......time to watch Family guy then....


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## twohoops21 (Sep 17, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Ok...sounds good to me......time to watch Family guy then....


lol me too, great show


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This is Richard Lynch in staten Island, NYC. Those of you who have taken the time to read through the prior threads about these "Alanicits" willl understand that, personally, I applaud greatly all those in the hobby (yes, "hobby", not a denominated "religion" as of yet) who have worked for years to keep their frogs as close to how they might appear in the wild. This is an "aesthetic" choice that many have made and, I believe, a perfectly valid one.

I prefer to grow species orchids in my home. I like to believe if I were to have the ambition, I could take a flight to visit my plants' wild cousins somewhere out in the world. I do not, though, take offense at orchid hybridists and other who select clones of orchids for particular traits that they find appealing. This is the best analogous situation I have been able to make to PDFs and the arguments I find here on Dendroboard against inter-morph crosses (again, these frogs are NOT hybrids).

As a research scientist, I deal with federally-endangered plant species everyday. What I've learned in this work is that accurately describing the rare taxon is often the most difficult part of the conservation plan. When it comes to D. tinctorius/D. t. azureus, it was thought for a long time that these were seperate species. More recent work seems to indicate that they are con-specific. From earlier crosses made with D. t. azureus ("Amotopo" apparantly being the cross of "Regina" with Azureus and "Agreja" being the cross of "Powderblue" with Azureus), that several of these morphs are not closed to reproductive communication with each other, lending weight to the one species hypothesis.

I think there is potentially some good science that can come from the Alanicits that were produced by Troy. I am not suggesting that anyone else begin to make such crosses, but these frogs exist in the real world right now. I would very much like to get to know some of the other more scientifically-inclined froggers out there and to come up with a research protocol that could look into the F2 generation of these frogs, to verfiy their placement into appropriate hands (through a licensing agreement or other such instrument), and potentially lead to the production of a paper on medelian inhereitance patterns based on the color morphologies we see in the progeny.

I don't have the time or inclination to wage anything but pleasant conversation at this point in my life, so I will not respond to reponses made on this partcular thread. If there are those interested in discussing this further, I suggest PMing me here or by sending an e-mail to [email protected].

I am glad to be among good people who love their frogs!! Take care, Richard.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Richard,

Troy has posted that you have inquired about receiving some of his hybrid frogs.

If you do receive them....please post something up here that you do indeed have them.

Then, at least we know some of them are in NY as well as OH.


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Thanks for posting Richard. It helps to know that you are interested in 'studying' these frogs rather than just breeding and selling them off.

I do have a question though. It seems that 'scientific' study is the main reason both you and Troy have decided to keep and work with these frogs. I'm a little hazy on what knowledge can be gained from them. The frogs are a cross between Alanis and Citronella. They share colours from both parents. They didn't turn out red or orange. They are not abnormally sized compared to the parents. In short, they look like exactly what they are - a cross betwen a mostly black morph and a mostly yellow morph. In my mind, there is not much to 'study'.

Would you or Troy care to give a detailed explanation of what you plan to learn from studying the frogs and how you plan to set up your experiment? Will you be moving on to crossing other tinc morphs to see what they look like when crossed? I guess I just don't see what the hobby as a whole gets out of knowing what a cross-morph tinc looks like. They look exactly how you would expect them to look.

Also, I'm worried about giving these frogs out to more and more people to 'study' them. Eventually, the frogs will go to an unscrupulous individual and they WILL get into the hands of newbs who don't know what they've got.

Looking forward to your replies...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

quote: When it comes to D. tinctorius/D. t. azureus, it was thought for a long time that these were seperate species. More recent work seems to indicate that they are con-specific. From earlier crosses made with D. t. azureus ("Amotopo" apparantly being the cross of "Regina" with Azureus and "Agreja" being the cross of "Powderblue" with Azureus), that several of these morphs are not closed to reproductive communication with each other, lending weight to the one species hypothesis.

I thought this was old news, and that azureus had been proven to be a tinc morph, which would mean reproductive success with fertile offspring. 
However, even seperate species in the same genus have been proved to be able to produce fertile offspring- see bulltrout/dolly varden hybrids, as well as both of these hybridizing with introduced brook trout to at least the F3 generation

Isn't mendelian genetics based on observations of single gene trait expression? like the peas, where only one gene determines color, pod texture etc? If color and pattern is multi gene expression, how do you plan on determining what dictates, say the "bracelets" on troy's hybrids, and what do you expect to gain from said research? Wouldn't there be a TON of hybridization necessary for these experiments, and what would happen to the resulting offspring of said research/ Especially in the light of upcoming bills attempting to limit or outright ban the importation and trade in these species, do you think this is a valid and necessary use of genetic material?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Woodsman said:


> I will not respond to reponses made on this partcular thread. If there are those interested in discussing this further, I suggest PMing me here or by sending an e-mail to [email protected]


-----------


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

ahhh, time to cut and paste an e-mail together.
EDIT- email sent


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Corpus Callosum said:


> -----------


 
Sorry Mike....Richard may have called "no give backs" on this post but that doesn't mean we shouldn't address his comments.

It just means that he won't be answering this thread (his claim).


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

Philsuma said:


> It just means that he won't be answering this thread (his claim).


Which is a little worrying to me, considering he supposedly has only 'scientific' intentions with his pack of alanacits. Is he not gathering very important data that he wants to publish in journals and such? Why the hesitation to discuss his intentions on a public forum that he is an active member of?


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## maverick3x6 (Jul 31, 2008)

otis07 said:


> My only hope is that newcomers will be interested enough to read past the first page. The 6 pages could seem a bit daunting, and the overall impression from this tread is vastly different from opinions just on the first page.


I just spent the better part of an hour reading every single post. 

Fortunately, I'd like to make the assumption that most new comers take the time to thoroughly research. I must admit, I signed up mid-summer, brand new to the dendrobate scene, and lurked (and participated a little bit) every single day from early august to early november when I purchased my first frogs. 

But even still, coming into this lifestyle (hell yeah it's a lifestyle) I had no idea it was so complex [insert iceberg analogy] ... even though I should have assumed it was since we're dealing with tropical amphibians! 

I can't speak for all the other new kids on the block, but I think that by researching so much, my love for this hobby has grown tremendously... and I think my tree frogs are jealous... whooooppssss.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

maverick3x6 said:


> But even still, coming into this lifestyle (hell yeah it's a lifestyle) I had no idea it was so complex [insert iceberg analogy] ....


Indeed....this isn't your Grampa's snake breedin'/ wranglin' hobby, that's fer sure.

We meet at Starbucks...discuss Madoff, stocks, the North Korean nuclear situation, all over lattes.


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## JLHayes13 (Feb 21, 2009)

I have spent more time feeding the frog food and feeding the frogs then I have feeding myself today. Yeah, definitely a lifestyle.


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## michaelslenahan (Mar 10, 2009)

Philsuma said:


> Indeed....this isn't your Grampa's snake breedin'/ wranglin' hobby, that's fer sure.
> 
> We meet at Starbucks...discuss Madoff, stocks, the North Korean nuclear situation, all over lattes.


=) 

Froggers are a force to be reckoned with.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

michaelslenahan said:


> =)
> 
> Froggers are a force to be reckoned with.


Obviously, I got negative rep from a nameless person for stating that I found Troys lack of respect for the hobby disgusting. They said that I was "advocating ignorance". Big words for someone that wasn't big enough to leave their name. I just wanted to say that I can get the "red" from everyone, but I stand by my words. I had nothing against Troy until he started talking about giving away these frogs. He (and his "nameless" friends) obviously don't have the respect for the hobby that most of us share.


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

To continue along the lines of the concerns of various comments on this thread, there is especially damage being done by the "hybrids" that we don't question enough or those we don't know about. Recently there was a discussion on D. leucomelas population structure with regards to morphs in the hobby, and it seems that some imports of populations might have been unintentionally mixed while others were segregated and selectively bred. It is difficult to come to any concrete conclusion without doing more research and contacting all the sources (from impoters to breeders to field researchers), and until the correct management of these populations within the hobby is ironed out (based on verified information), these possible hybrids continue to be spread within the hobby doing more damage every day. I am doing more research on this species (among others) but since there are so many passionate and concerned members of this community which have voiced their anti-hybrid opinions on this thread, I was hoping they could use some of that great energy to help me work on this. Not to mention other similar examples / species, which also need proper management guidelines verified to prevent hybridization under our noses. All things that the members of this community can easily accomplish with some good use of their time and energy, which will help maintain our populations and prevent contamination from foreign lineages. I look forward to hearing from you guys.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

So Im now of the impression that green foot is a locality specific morph, as is banded, while fine spot is a selectively line bred trait from standard leucomelas. These were the answers I got recently, anyway. 
Im still more confused about green and bronze, turq and bronze, blue and black and superblue auratus

heres an answer from woodsman to the questions posed above

Hi Jason (or is it Mike?), I'd like for those interested in the topic to develop a protocol to look into the inheritance patterns in these frogs (as I said, I'm not proposing any additional crosses, but these frogs exist in the flesh right now and are in the hands of someone without any science background). Mendel did not know of the basis of the inheritance patterns of his garden peas before he began his work, so it was the work that provided the answers. Science is an incremental instrument, so not being able to answer all of the questions at once is not a reason to not undertake any study at all. What I am proposing is that TWI/ASN or another authority make the proposal for the work (perhaps the NAIB or other zoo might be interested as well). There are several members who have already expressed an interest. If you've read through much of their work, it is clear that none of the D. tinctorius in the hobby today would be of any value in conserving the species in the wild. D. tinctorius is also listed as having the lowest level of concern for conservation work at this time, so the work I'm interested in has more to do with basic scientific research than anything else. I'd appreciate


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Corpus Callosum said:


> To continue along the lines of the concerns of various comments on this thread, there is especially damage being done by the "hybrids" that we don't question enough or those we don't know about. Recently there was a discussion on D. leucomelas population structure with regards to morphs in the hobby, and it seems that some imports of populations might have been unintentionally mixed while others were segregated and selectively bred. It is difficult to come to any concrete conclusion without doing more research and contacting all the sources (from impoters to breeders to field researchers), and until the correct management of these populations within the hobby is ironed out (based on verified information), these possible hybrids continue to be spread within the hobby doing more damage every day. I am doing more research on this species (among others) but since there are so many passionate and concerned members of this community which have voiced their anti-hybrid opinions on this thread, I was hoping they could use some of that great energy to help me work on this. Not to mention other similar examples / species, which also need proper management guidelines verified to prevent hybridization under our noses. All things that the members of this community can easily accomplish with some good use of their time and energy, which will help maintain our populations and prevent contamination from foreign lineages. I look forward to hearing from you guys.


Leucs are probably my favourite frog and this is an issue I'm particularly interested in. If there's any way I can aid in your research don't hesistate to ask.

Jason, your copy-paste cut off... I'm interested in hearing the rest of his resposne.


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## porkchop (Aug 29, 2005)

Wow....Whats done is done !
I hope they stay in troys care.
If not, then i hope they are legitamately/responsibly tracked somehow for the preservation of our hobbie.
Tony


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Corpus Callosum said:


> To continue along the lines of the concerns of various comments on this thread, there is especially damage being done by the "hybrids" that we don't question enough or those we don't know about. Recently there was a discussion on D. leucomelas population structure with regards to morphs in the hobby, and it seems that some imports of populations might have been unintentionally mixed while others were segregated and selectively bred. It is difficult to come to any concrete conclusion without doing more research and contacting all the sources (from impoters to breeders to field researchers), and until the correct management of these populations within the hobby is ironed out (based on verified information), these possible hybrids continue to be spread within the hobby doing more damage every day. I am doing more research on this species (among others) but since there are so many passionate and concerned members of this community which have voiced their anti-hybrid opinions on this thread, I was hoping they could use some of that great energy to help me work on this. Not to mention other similar examples / species, which also need proper management guidelines verified to prevent hybridization under our noses. All things that the members of this community can easily accomplish with some good use of their time and energy, which will help maintain our populations and prevent contamination from foreign lineages. I look forward to hearing from you guys.


Good post Mike.

Hybrids are out there. I saw my first over 10 years ago at Lee Watsons show(i think it was a cobalt azureus). What worries me more is the hybrids we all have in our collections. You don`t know how many times over the years I`ve seen panama or nicaraguan auratus sold as costa rican, because they were hot at the time. i`ve seen every morph of tricolor called santa isabel. I have hobbyists come to my table and tell me about the cobalt tincs they have breeding that the male is 2 x the size of the female(dwarf female and surinam male). 
There are 2 hobbies in the dart world, those who mix and will hybridize and those that want it pure(db). The dart hobby is part of the larger reptile trade. There always will be hybrids, like it or not. What worries me more is the unknown hybrids circulating, they can do much more damage. I know it sounds like a mess, but just like other laws, if it`s driven into the shadows we can`t learn from it and why would anyone, after this, mention it in public? It seems it`d do more damage than good to be split. People who want hybrids could help conservation, also, if they`re not shut out. The one unifying trait is that we`re all interested and curious about dart frogs.

Register your known lines!


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## herper99 (Mar 21, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> Good post Mike.
> 
> Hybrids are out there. I saw my first over 10 years ago at Lee Watsons show(i think it was a cobalt azureus). What worries me more is the hybrids we all have in our collections. You don`t know how many times over the years I`ve seen panama or nicaraguan auratus sold as costa rican, because they were hot at the time. i`ve seen every morph of tricolor called santa isabel. I have hobbyists come to my table and tell me about the cobalt tincs they have breeding that the male is 2 x the size of the female(dwarf female and surinam male).
> There are 2 hobbies in the dart world, those who mix and will hybridize and those that want it pure(db). The dart hobby is part of the larger reptile trade. There always will be hybrids, like it or not. What worries me more is the unknown hybrids circulating, they can do much more damage. I know it sounds like a mess, but just like other laws, if it`s driven into the shadows we can`t learn from it and why would anyone, after this, mention it in public? It seems it`d do more damage than good to be split. People who want hybrids could help conservation, also, if they`re not shut out. The one unifying trait is that we`re all interested and curious about dart frogs.
> ...


These are all good points. This is just further justification to work with reputable breeders who support and register their frogs with ASN. I know it is impossible to track every frog, but we have to start somewhere. I know it has been hard for me to get information from some people about the origins of some frogs. Even when some info is given, it may be hard to track. When we purchase frogs with ASN registration numbers, it is definitely a good place to start. I know the process of registering them isn't the easiest process and takes some time, but if most of us start doing it, we support a system of tracking that reduces the risk of "accidental" hybridization as well as excessive inbreeding.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

frogparty said:


> So Im now of the impression that green foot is a locality specific morph, as is banded, while fine spot is a selectively line bred trait from standard leucomelas. These were the answers I got recently, anyway.
> Im still more confused about green and bronze, turq and bronze, blue and black and superblue auratus
> 
> heres an answer from woodsman to the questions posed above
> ...


My preference is to not have personal correspondence re-published here. Please respect this request.

Thanks very much, Richard Lynch.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

deleting post now, not sure I can delete the quote on someone elses post though

EDIT- hmm seems I am unable to edit that post, edit option not there when I go to it
Sorry


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> My preference is to not have personal correspondence re-published here. Please respect this request.
> 
> Thanks very much, Richard Lynch.


 
Very telling statement........


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

It is ironic and perhaps fitting that this subject matter should have two threads ‘crossing’ with one another….

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38798-nice-pic.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38335-crossbreeds-update.html

A few comments.

Several people have commented that 'what's done is done' i.e. the alanacits exist. True only to a point. What is done can be undone. Not a pleasant thought but it is not as some would suggest a fait accompli. 

Now I've seen reference to the 'good science' that could be done with these animals, perhaps even leading to a publication. Suffice it to say that the field of genetics has made significant advances since the days of Gregor Mendel. So I don't see the 'good science' here. 

People have correctly pointed out the disconnect between the focus on these cows leaving the barn while others are already wandering all over the landscape. Both are important. Perhaps what is causing people heartburn in this case is the fairly blatant attempt by some to counter the prevailing ethos of the hobby with respect to not running down the track of designer animals. Now with the added twist that we are doing it the name of 'science'.

Bill


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Very telling statement........


This was a response to a personal e-mail I was sent by a member. If it is considered regular policy on the board here to re-publish reponses to personal e-mails, consider that I will no longer repond to e-mails or Pms.

Please keep in mind, I did not breed these frogs. Unlike some of the crud-mudgeons on this thread, I was looking for a solution. Good luck to you all.

It's very telling that you like to write things like "very telling"......


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

elmoisfive said:


> It is ironic and perhaps fitting that this subject matter should have two threads ‘crossing’ with one another….
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38798-nice-pic.html
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38335-crossbreeds-update.html
> ...


Well said bill this topic really does not need more then one post on it..
Brian


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> It's very telling that you like to write things like "very telling"......


 
I know you are but what am I ? 

Better?

I thought you weren't going to post on this thread anymore........


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Okay let's not start making this a personal war complete with name calling etc. Post your position on the question at hand, be prepared to defend it if necessary and move on with your life.

Bill


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I said I tried to delete it...sorry






frogparty said:


> deleting post now, not sure I can delete the quote on someone elses post though
> 
> EDIT- hmm seems I am unable to edit that post, edit option not there when I go to it
> Sorry


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## afterdark (Jan 16, 2007)

I won't get into the personal name calling - but I too am wondering why Richard is so reluctant to discuss the issues that some of us have with his reasoning for acquiring these frogs. It seems to me if you come from a science background, you should be used to defending your opinions and experiments against scrutiny by your peers. I can understand being upset about having personal correspondence (even though it was technically also addressed to me) posted, but why the avoidance of open discussion?


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I figured if you were willing to send this response to me, someone you don't know, (also in the biology/conservation field btw) then you would be sending something similar to anyone who asked the same question. Thought I was saving you some trouble and typing.
Again... sorry


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Okay, my last post here (promise!) What I was trying to say was that I didn't feel this THREAD was the correct place to have a discussion about the scientific merits of frog breeding projects. I have always been willing to address concerns others have and to defend my positions. I am not a dogmatic person by nature, but I have encountered a great deal of resistence to active cooperation in my primary work with endangered native plants. So some of my worries come from a 32 year career of often battling "up-hill" for the species I care about.

I will post a new thread in the Science and Conservation section tomorrow on some of the ideas I have had and to welcome any and all informed opinions to be expressed openly. I think it would be very useful for those who have additional background research papers on D. tinctorius (the species I am interested in working with ) to post links for these on this thread as primer material for those interested.

Thanking you in advance, Richard Lynch.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Philsuma - thanks on the vote of confidence of Ohio froggers & breeders . Glad we make such a good impression. Don't remember when we voted Troy as our fearless leader ...



Philsuma said:


> I've noticed all the Ohio support for the Hybrids...
> 
> Memo to self.....be wary of all Tincs from that area....


In a perfect world it would be great if every breeder took the steps to make sure anyone interested in purchasing the frogs would be 'worthy' - but we are not in a perfect world. I think we (Quality Captives) are pretty responsible breeders and have been in the hobby for quite some time. Long enough to learn frogs that we have sold end up getting transferred multiple times to other individuals once they leave our hands. Stuff happens. People loose jobs, they really like luecs, but get a chance to trade with someone else to get thumbs they want and jump at the chance. Regardless of how hard we might try to ensure our frogs go to the 'right' home & we educate people how mixing is not the best thing for the frogs - people still do what they want once they walk away from the table. 

Does that make myself & other breeders bad people because despite our best intentions our frogs end up in someone else's hands? No - it doesn't. Does that make the people who go against my advise bad? No - stupid maybe, but not bad. I don't have a problem telling people I can't sell frogs to them because they are not ready. Nor do I have a problem discouraging people from mixing - but the fact is, anyone can stand in front of you at a show and lie to your face and say what they think you want to hear....and get the frogs. Once they are out of our hands - they can & will do what they want with them. 

Fact is some people are more interested in moving frogs & getting the sale. The flip side of that is the customer hearing what they want to hear from the vendor. 

We handle potential customers who insist on mixing species like this. I explain all the potential issues that can come up, emphasise why it isn't a good idea, etc.... but if they still insist on a mixed species tank - I follow up with. I can't stop you from doing that - but if you insist on buying them I can not guarantee your frogs - period. 

This line prevents them from buying multiple species from me, but they can also buy from another vendor a few tables over. I have seen them do that & loose a lot of sales. All I can do is educate potential customers the best I can and hope they follow my advice. 



Philsuma said:


> Yep...a good breeder is someone who will make 100% certain the frogs he is selling will stand a good chance of being cared for correctly. I have turned down transfering frogs to an 18 year old kid recently, because he was not mature enough or ready for them....thats called being responsible and working towards the good of the hobby. There are breeders that don't care and don't even want to know anything about where their frogs are going - do you want to get your frogs from this guy?
> 
> A mistake? Like selling 4 different species of dart frogs to a person who never even owned a frog before and saying they can all be housed together? You mean that kind of mistake?
> 
> Yeah you're right. No need to bring that up.....no biggie......it's cool, whoever did that....simple slip of the mind


On to Troy. Dude - you have really dug yourself a hole here. Do I condone what you did - no. You would have been much better off coming off clean - but what is done is done. Only you can undo it and resolve this issue. Should we keep on beating this issue to the ground or rubbing his nose in it? Honestly - why waste our time? 

IMO what people should take from this discussion is the potential danger of crosses & how nice some of them can look. People get dupped into buying that really colorful Cobalt, Alanis, etc... Crosses happen when you put multiple species in one tank. The easiest way to prevent it is to not mix the species. If you just DON'T DO IT you will never be placed in the situation where you have to make the decision to toss the eggs - or what to do with that froglet the parents raised & you missed. 

Like Bill said earlier we do our best to purchase frogs from people we know and trust.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

swampfoxjjr said:


> They are "new" to science. _Dendrobates Tinctorius Unaturalis_


Now that is a great name, I'm still laughing.

Dave


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dave....NOOOOOOOOOOOOO....


....picked the scab on this thread...


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Dave....NOOOOOOOOOOOOO....
> 
> 
> ....picked the scab on this thread...


Sorry, I posted before I read through the thread. I do understand.

I still got a kick out of the name.

Dave


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

hahaha, when i clicked User CP and saw "nice pic" , I was like Oh good lord No, not again!


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## bradley.scotty (Apr 1, 2009)

Troy, you told us over at dartden you were athiest! Is this statement untrue as well?!.............scotty bradley


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## alluringeli (Apr 20, 2009)

Good luck with the frogs there really nice....


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

wow scotty, . . . wow


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