# Shipping 101



## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Since there is no real sticky for the shipping of live frogs, well here you go. Please post your advice and comments as you would like. Below are what I have done and by no means are the proper way of doing things.

Summer shipping:
For the summer I like to use a single box with a unfrozen cold pack. They now make the phase cold packs which are great for summer shipping. The way phase cold packs work is they melt or start to melt at a certain temperature. I dont know the exact temp but believe it is somewhere around 70 degrees. So the phase cold packs will keep the temps in the box in the low 70s. Traditional cold packs start to melt as soon as you take them out of the freezer. This is kind of a waste if you are shipping the box off early in the morning. As the cold pack will be well melted by evening time. My method for summer temps UNDER 90 during the day and 70-80 at night is to put a foam box with a cold pack that has not been frozen in with the frogs. Around the frog containers I put wet paper towels and packing material so they dont slide around. After the foam box is closed I put that in a slightly bigger box with frozen ice packs around the foam. Make sure to wrap frozen cold packs with paper towels because they will sweat and the paper towels help keep the box from getting to wet. Then I pack more newspaper around the foam and close the box.

Temps above 90 during the day or 80 at night:
For this I do basically the same thing but instead of having a single box I double it with an extra cardboard box. So after the first step above is done I will put that box in a larger box with a couple more cold packs. This method has allowed me to ship frogs to places where it was around 100 during the day.

Spring and fall shipping:
These are by far the two easiest seasons to ship. When temps are in the 60s-70s during the day and 50-60 at night I simply use a foam box with an unfrozen cold pack. Cover the frog containers with wet paper towels as stated above and put into a cardboard box. I do not bother with frozen cold packs during these months.

Winter:
The winter is probably the hardest to get right. With temps in the country ranging from 70s and 80s and other places being near 0. First off choose a day where temps between you and the destination are most similar. Within 10-20 degrees is ok but dont attempt shipping from florida to montana. So basically when highs are in the 30s and 40s I use the same basic method as the hot summer shipping. Foam box with an unfrozen cold pack and the wet paper towels. Now this differs drom summer by using another larger insulateds box for winter. After the first foam box is done I use 2 24 hour heat packs in with the larger foam box. After this is all done I seal it all up and ship. When temps are really cold you can add another heat pack to the outer foam box.

Basically that it, you shipping by season. Please use this as a guide and do what you feel is best. I dont want to be held reposible for frogs perishing. This is just a simple guide to how I ship frogs and may not work for you.

Side notes:
For your first time shipping please try spring or fall. These generally are the easiest times to ship frogs. Also depending on the carrier you choose will determine when frogs will need to be packed up. I use FedEx for shipping and drop off my packages. My local FedEx hub doesnt close until 8:30pm so the temps will be more uniform. The later you can drop off your packages the better off the frogs will be. This allows the temps to drop so that they are more even during shipping. Also read the info on your heat packs. They are all different and all spike to there highest point at different times. It would also be a good point to start a heat pack an hour before the other one to make sure they dont spike at the same time. Doing this will allow the temps in the box to stay more even. Lastly allow about a half an hour before moving winter boxes outside after packing. It can take up to a half hour for the heat packs to be activated and the last thing you want to do is chill the frogs right off the bat.

Please feel free to express your ways of packing and shipping frogs below. Once again this is MY method of shipping and what has worked for me and may not work for you.
J


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Wow, no one else has anything to add? I was doing this to help new shippers and not to toot my own horn. Hopefully others will chime in with what they do for shipping.
J


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## cheezus_2007 (Aug 20, 2009)

i'll add something... its nothing special but.. its my something hahaha. I think packing is really important with your frogs......here are some things i noticed that kinda bothered me.. but this is just me...first off, i've recieved packages that had wet newspaper in them during the cold season it was just a bad idea... i think thats prob. why one of my frogs didn't make it one time.... Secondly the foam boxes ppl ship in....some are really sturdy, and def. hold the weather out nicely, while some are just really shitty. I understand that these would be acceptable during fair weather... but during cold weather stay away from these things haha. And during the really hot heat...i think ppl should use those weird gel packets..... anyways thats my 2 cents... I've learned my lessons though with buying frogs during the winter....its a hard obsession to control during the winter but usually in the long run its nice because i have twice the amount of money for twice as cool of frogs haha.... (unless gas prices rise again...yikes!!)


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

very nice Jason. ive always wondered why there wasn't a sticky for this. 

james


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

here's a GREAT thread...

yeah...all this is very stick-worthy


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/43721-packing-frogs-ship.html


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

Great info! I rarely ship frogs but when I do I use similar methods. I also like to use leaves in the cups, something like 2 or 3 pothos. One thing that gets mentioned once in a while is how many frogs per cup? I have had reputable breeders send 1 and 2 per cup. Personally I like to use the 1 frog per cup however it seems that for saving room some put more than 1 in each cup. I have shipped both ways myself though without any ill effects. Any comments?


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

How about do not ship with clumps of wet sphagnum or anything substantially heavier than the frog. I just recently recieved a beautiful trio of bastis only to open the container and find the male caught under a large clump of sphagnum spread eagle like. The poor guy was spent when I untangled him and looked like both his front feet were broken. Needless to say he died a couple days after arriving. Shipping in SMALL containers with just clippings will ensure safe arrival.


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

boogsawaste said:


> Great info! I rarely ship frogs but when I do I use similar methods. I also like to use leaves in the cups, something like 2 or 3 pothos. One thing that gets mentioned once in a while is how many frogs per cup? I have had reputable breeders send 1 and 2 per cup. Personally I like to use the 1 frog per cup however it seems that for saving room some put more than 1 in each cup. I have shipped both ways myself though without any ill effects. Any comments?


I haven't shipped but I have received quite a few frogs and it seems everyone does it differently. Some have sent one per cup, two per cup, and I have recieved as many as 5 froglets in a 12oz deli cup without problems(although they couldn't have been more than a couple weeks ootw).

I am amazed that shipping these frogs at 100 degrees can be done. I had the unfortunate experience of receiving 15 dead frogs a couple months ago when temps were in the high 90s and I don't think I would ever risk having that happen again. The worst part wasn't the money I was out, but the fact that 15 frogs were dead and out of the hobby. It made me sick. 


Thanks Jason, I will probably be shipping frogs soon and it isn't something I am looking forward to but this thread is a big help.


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

JoshK said:


> Thanks Jason, I will probably be shipping frogs soon and it isn't something I am looking forward to but this thread is a big help.


It is a little intimidating at first but if you follow some sort of proven guidelines (like what Jason posted), you will be fine. I was scared the first time I shipped them but I haven't had a casualty yet (knock on wood).

Thanks for your input on the multiple frog per container info. I'm guessing it's just personal preference.

EDIT: Also thanks Jason for your input on the same issue. (I know you posted under me but I didn't feel like putting up another post just saying thanks  )


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Some add ons I would like to mention. I use leaves to ship like pothos or creeping fig. Sphagnum in most cases will kill the frogs. The weight of the sphagnum combined with the tossing and turning seems to crush frogs. Also I put one large frog per container like luecs and tincs. Smaller frogs like thumbs I will put up to 5 in the same container. Inspired from the posts above. Thanks guys.
J


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## jeffdart (May 21, 2008)

Thanks for the thread Jason, will definitely refer to it when I start shipping!! Maybe before you ship another frog take a few pics of the packing process?


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

jeffdart said:


> Thanks for the thread Jason, will definitely refer to it when I start shipping!! Maybe before you ship another frog take a few pics of the packing process?


Good Idea, will do.
J


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

I'm expecting to get some eggs relatively soon, and this was a big help for the future. If I do get some good eggs, I'm definitely waiting until all the winter months are gone before even considering shipping. Thanks, Jason!


I agree that pics of your packing process would be awesome!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Jason
You've done some good work there.

There is indeed a Care Sheet on this very subject...in the creation section [you have to ask Kyle to join]

I would join, help light the fire to finally finish that monster. It has been idle for some time and it was/is very close to completion.

KYLE!! act.... ;-)


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

> Jason
> You've done some good work there.
> 
> There is indeed a Care Sheet on this very subject...in the creation section [you have to ask Kyle to join]
> ...



I am very interested in seeing the completed "monster"


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

sports_doc said:


> Jason
> You've done some good work there.
> 
> There is indeed a Care Sheet on this very subject...in the creation section [you have to ask Kyle to join]
> ...


I tried to apply but it says that the web page is not found?
J


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Also, one point, having spoken to some folks, it seems that often the biggest temp variation is when folks open the shipment upon arrival. According to the data temps can spike dramatically when they have previously been consistent. Just something to think about. I've started opening the shipment and then closing it for an hour or so to allow the temps to stabilize.


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## porkchop48 (May 16, 2006)

Ok a bit of an odd tip. 

I started shipping my frogs ( most of the time) in urine specimen containers. Dang them things work great. In the unfortunate incident that the box gets a wee bit mangled they hold up a bit better than the regular ole shipping containers. 

Works great for tads as well. 

I did have to specify one time that they did not need to be filled up and sent back though.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

My 2 cents worth would be PCM gel packs.

For me, PCM gel packs combined with a double insulated box and I can ship in almost any kind of weather.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

What Gary said...
PCM whether it's hot or cold or just right.
When it's going to be on the cool side, you start with the material in liquid state, as it changes to a solid, heat is released, keeping the temps stable.
When I saw the performance of the phase 22, I decided someone was going to get a sweetheart of a deal on my leftover heat packs.


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Here's a way to eliminate the amount of time that the frogs sit out in the cold / hot on delivery day. 


Ship with USPS and have the recipient of the frogs do a vacation change / general delivery pickup. This insures that they hold all mail / packages at the post office which is an indoor heated space. Doing this insures that the frogs are only exposed during the cross country trip where the heat packs are at their strongest. They aren't then being loaded into the unheated / cooled delivery truck and transported / vibrated / shaken around in the truck all day long. Less stress. Less chance of heat stress. Plus your recipient does not need to take the day off and wait for delivery. They just go down at the end of the work day and pick them up safe and sound. 

I'm doing it that way myself next week.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Thats what I prefer to do as well. The only difference is I use Fedex hold at location. By doing this it saves another 4-6 hours in transport. And like you said they wont have to sit in a truck with changing temps and all the tossing around. Actually if you are the one shipping it ends up a couple bucks cheaper to hold the package also.
J


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Jason DeSantis said:


> Some add ons I would like to mention. I use leaves to ship like pothos or creeping fig. Sphagnum in most cases will kill the frogs. The weight of the sphagnum combined with the tossing and turning seems to crush frogs. Also I put one large frog per container like luecs and tincs. Smaller frogs like thumbs I will put up to 5 in the same container. Inspired from the posts above. Thanks guys.
> J


I think this post needs an edit if this is going to become a sticky. I've always used spagnum moss when I ship, and have had very good results. The key is to not have it sopping wet, and to just have enough to keep the container humid.
Saying it will kill the frogs in most cases is way over-exaggerating the risk.
Just my opinion.


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## Jason DeSantis (Feb 2, 2006)

Dancing frogs said:


> I think this post needs an edit if this is going to become a sticky. I've always used spagnum moss when I ship, and have had very good results. The key is to not have it sopping wet, and to just have enough to keep the container humid.
> Saying it will kill the frogs in most cases is way over-exaggerating the risk.
> Just my opinion.


You may be right but the times I have used the sphagnum the frogs arrived dead. I have never had a loss with using leaves. Either way I believe this was hashed out already and if it were to become a sticky both methods would be mentioned.
J

PS:the sphagnum was moist but not soaked when I shipped, its like everything what works or you, you should keep on doing


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## Malaki33 (Dec 21, 2007)

Great info from all of you, I am soon to be shipping my first frogs out and this has been a huge help! I do have some info that has been posted on some ohter threads here. I have been collecting shipping coolers from my local vet's office, they are more then willing to hold them for me (I pick up on fridays), now does anyone have any tricks on how to get phase 22 at a reasonable price?


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## MattySF (May 25, 2005)

Jason DeSantis said:


> Foam box with an unfrozen cold pack and the wet paper towels.


Is this referring to a refigerated or room temp cold pack?


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## dartsinmanhattan (Apr 11, 2018)

I am about to ship a frog for the first time, from NYC to a friend on Long Island via next day UPS. The weather here now is from a low of 60 at night to a high of mid 70's in the daytime. I ordered one of those 8x8x8 insulated shipping boxes from Josh's. I was thinking of packing the frog in a 4 oz. cup (also from Josh's) with wet oak leaves on the bottom and a pothos cutting on top. I have a supply of Cryopaks, so I was going to tape one in liquid form to the top of the box lid. I'm thinking a heat pack would only cook the frog since the outside temp is not really that cold so I will skip it. Am I missing anything?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Drive it....much safer


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

dartsinmanhattan said:


> I am about to ship a frog for the first time, from NYC to a friend on Long Island via next day UPS. The weather here now is from a low of 60 at night to a high of mid 70's in the daytime. I ordered one of those 8x8x8 insulated shipping boxes from Josh's. I was thinking of packing the frog in a 4 oz. cup (also from Josh's) with wet oak leaves on the bottom and a pothos cutting on top. I have a supply of Cryopaks, so I was going to tape one in liquid form to the top of the box lid. I'm thinking a heat pack would only cook the frog since the outside temp is not really that cold so I will skip it. Am I missing anything?


Philsuma is right, but if that isn't an option, I think you are on the right track with the shipping method you describe. Definitely no heat pack. I usually put my Cryopaks on the bottom (since they are the heaviest thing in there) and pack the box in fairly tight with newspaper or equivalent to avoid shifting of the cryopak and deli cup. 

Mark


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## dartsinmanhattan (Apr 11, 2018)

Thanks, Mark. Sounds like a plan! Actually, I have an immune deficiency and have literally left my apartment building a total of six times in the past 19 months. The only reason I have the frog to ship to begin with is I tried hatching some eggs just for something to do....


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Shipping is going to be about 70.00 for next day. Have them drive to you.


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