# Dying Costa Rican green and Black



## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

Hello everyone,
I’m new to the forum and I’m really in dire need of some help. I’ve had my frogs for almost 2 years now and I haven’t had any trouble and in the last two months I’ve had three of them die two in the last week. They’ve been eating up until the time that they die and I do have them on a vitamin regiment. I haven’t changed much of anything since I originally got them so I don’t know what I’m doing wrong or what’s going on and why all of a sudden they are dying. I’m thinking about taking everything out and starting all over again,that’s gonna take me a long time but I’m willing to do it if that’s the problem. Any Help and advice you can give I really do appreciate.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hi, can you answer all these questions as best you can (cut and paste)



1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?



2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ?



3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top.



4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ?



5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ? 



6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ?



7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ?



8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ?


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ? dendrobates auratus Costa Rican green and black, and I got them at a local reptile shop.

2. What are your Temperatures -Day and Night - Highs and lows ? Are the enclosure lights too hot ? Day I keep it at 70-76 and at night it falls to 60-65. The lights I have are led’s.

3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top. The humidity stays about 90% to 95%. The water are used as tapwater and then I put reptile water conditioner in it. The tank is a exo-terra 36’’ 18’’ 18’’, screen top that I covered up with saran wrap and tape.

4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ? I’m feeding them Heidi-eye fruit flies And I dust them once a week with reptivite and repticalcium. Both zoo med Products.

5. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently ? Tankmates / other frogs ? The tank has only house them and there were four of them now I only have one.

6. Any type of behaviour you would consider 'odd' ? The first one that died just went missing and I found them later already dead did not observe any odd behaviors. The second one I noticed one day it didn’t come out to feed so I went looking for it and it was sluggish and non-reactive , So I quarantine the frog and it died the next day. And the last one that died was eating and jumping around the previous day and I came in in the morning and I found it lifeless.

7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ? I haven’t ever handled them are usually use a container if I need to get them out. I haven’t used any cleaners or paint on the tank since it’s only two years old the only thing I’ve recently added as a pothos plants in the back right corner where they rarely go.
8. Can you take pictures of EVERYTHING ? The frogs, the enclosure ? I have pics but don’t know how to add them to the post from my phone.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Colin303 said:


> 3. What is the Humidity like ? - Percentage or guesstimate. What type of Water are you using ? Describe your tank/enclosure and it's lid or top. The humidity stays about 90% to 95%. The water are used as tapwater and then I put reptile water conditioner in it. The tank is a exo-terra 36’’ 18’’ 18’’, screen top that I covered up with saran wrap and tape.


Frogs need ventilation. Uncover a 2 inch strip on the back of the top, and mist as necessary to maintain humidity around 70%ish.

Also: tap water can fluctuate in quality, especially in spring if you are in a municipality that uses surface water. Not all contaminants can be removed by a normal dose of chloramine remover. When I worked at an LFS in Minneapolis, springtime brought in many people whose fish were dying because the city radically increases the amount of disinfectant in the water due to high organic and bacteria concentrations from spring runoff.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Colin303 said:


> 4. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it ? What superfine powdered supplements are you using and are they fresh ? I’m feeding them Heidi-eye fruit flies And I dust them once a week with reptivite and repticalcium. Both zoo med Products.


I believe your vitamins are at fault. You have absolutely zero preformed vitamin A. You are using reptile supplements for frogs. You could get stupidly imaginative, and try and balance out your reptile vitamins, or you could do it the easy way.
Throw out your other supplements.
Order yourself some Repashy Calcium Plus. It is an all in one, stand alone, supplement. It has calcium, the D3 required to utilize calcium, and a full array of other vitamins, including Retinol, a preformed vitamin A.
Use it at every feeding.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Doug, Reptivite contains Vitamin A acetate (AKA retinol) @ 220,000 IU/kg. 

https://zoomed.com/reptivite-with-d3/


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Did you happen to notice if any of your frogs have had problems catching flies? Sometimes the first sign of a severe vitamin A deficiency is the loss of stickiness to your frog's tongue. It is called STS, for Sticky Tongue Syndrome. It used to be called Short Tongue Syndrome.

I believe your frogs are seriously short on vitamin A. Normally, the Repashy Calcium Plus is designed to give them what they need for proper maintenance levels. As you may be deficient, you could also consider using Repashy Vitamin 
A Plus, once a week, until you see improvement. Then discontinue it's use until or unless you decide to breed them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Doug, Reptivite contains Vitamin A acetate (AKA retinol) @ 220,000 IU/kg.
> 
> https://zoomed.com/reptivite-with-d3/


I did not know that.
How are you storing your vitamins, and how old are they?


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

They didn’t show any signs of sickness before they croaked. Besides the one that was sluggish the day before it died. They all were vary Hardy eaters up till their deaths.


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

Is vitaminA a vary common cause of death?


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

70%? Everything I’ve read said 90% humidity is perfect for them, is that not the case?

[/quote]

Frogs need ventilation. Uncover a 2 inch strip on the back of the top, and mist as necessary to maintain humidity around 70%ish.

Also: tap water can fluctuate in quality, especially in spring if you are in a municipality that uses surface water. Not all contaminants can be removed by a normal dose of chloramine remover. When I worked at an LFS in Minneapolis, springtime brought in many people whose fish were dying because the city radically increases the amount of disinfectant in the water due to high organic and bacteria concentrations from spring runoff.[/QUOTE]


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

It is not the case that any animal will do well long term in a sealed box, which is the crux of my comment. 

If humidity is near/at saturation, the frogs cannot go anywhere in the viv to get a rest from all that moisture. If humidity is 70% wherever you have a hygrometer (and if it is actually reading reliably, which none of them do after being waterlogged, and many of them don't right out of the box), then it is higher under the leaf litter, inside hides/cork tubes/coconut shells/whatever you have for hiding spots, and the frogs can go there to seek humidity. If they do seek humidity too frequently, then you increase the moisture a little bit and see how they react. 

The RH is mostly just a proxy to get a handle on what else might be going on in the viv anyway -- whether misting is sufficient, whether ventilation is ballpark acceptable -- and many keepers don't measure humidity in vivs.


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

I don’t know that. I took 90% as a hardline or they would dry up. I live in Colorado and it’s really dry here year round, Would you still suggest 2 inches of venting space? Thank you so much for the info.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Colin303 said:


> I don’t know that. I took 90% as a hardline or they would dry up. I live in Colorado and it’s really dry here year round, Would you still suggest 2 inches of venting space? Thank you so much for the info.


Colin, I'm in Colorado. Recommendations of 90% humidity, simply means that your chosen store hasn't done any research in over 10 years. It's a very old school recommendation. Ventilation makes our frogs live healthier, and most likely longer. 90% humidity is a respiratory infection waiting to happen. 
I used to do sealed glass boxes. When I put my first vent in, I never looked back. I will never again have a frog vivarium without passive ventilation.

I like to use about an inch strip of ventilation immediately under the doors, and another inch in the "roof". Yes, even in Colorado. Remember, you can always put something over part of the vent to tone it down a bit. 
Your frogs will do fine even down to 60% humidity at times. You can increase misting a little to compensate.
You are also going to notice that your plants do better than ever. It swings open the barn doors on the variety of plants you can now grow. It will even take away the stale odor, and begin smelling sweet, and forest fresh. 

Are you on FaceBook? We have a Colorado group.  You actually have well experienced froggers all around you. Come over and meet a few. (online of course...no contact.) Pm me for details.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Colin303 said:


> 7. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays ect near the tank ? I haven’t ever handled them are usually use a container if I need to get them out. I haven’t used any cleaners or paint on the tank since it’s only two years old the only thing I’ve recently added as a pothos plants in the back right corner where they rarely go.


Where did this plant come from? Plants bought from regular stores sometimes have pesticices on them which can seriously harm frogs.

I think the vitamin and humidity issues have been adequately covered by the others, so I'm not going to go further into that


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

70-90% humidity is what you want. 90% with little to no ventilation is bad.

Immediately buy new vitamins - throw the old ones out.

Buy Repashy Super Foods Calcium Plus Supplement, 3 oz. - should be like $8.00 amazon

Try to culture melanogaster fruit flies rather than hydei - they are smaller but yield more flies and are much more predictable and easy to culture than hydei.

Feed every 3 days of so but dust EVERY single feeding.


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## jeffkruse (Jun 5, 2018)

I have had mine for about that long. They bread like crazy. Have yours been breading?

I have extra if you are looking for more.

Sometimes animals can live much much longer in captivity.

My frogs are fat yet and I rarely see them eat. Meaning, I worry the flies they eat later have lost all the vitamins. 

Regards to humidity, I made many measurements with a data logger in many locations in my tanks. They vary a lot from place to place in the tank. I don't think anyone can say their tank is any given % humidity. 

Is it possible your wife opened the window to get some fresh air in your frog room and the temp got into the 50's? That happened to me but I have heaters in the tanks so them temp still was in the 60's in the tanks.

Or have any pesticides been used around your house?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jeffkruse said:


> ...Meaning, I worry the flies they eat later have lost all the vitamins.


You can rest your mind there. Ed, our resident retired head zookeeper, has pulled flied at various intervals and scoped them out for vitamin dust. There is plenty there even 8 or more hours later. Yes, some is knocked off, but some simply becomes invisible to the naked eye as it darkens with humidity.



jeffkruse said:


> Regards to humidity, I made many measurements with a data logger in many locations in my tanks. They vary a lot from place to place in the tank. I don't think anyone can say their tank is any given % humidity.


You are exactly right. We call those microclimates. Areas more in the open will have a lower humidity. Areas closer to substrate and moisture holding woods and backgrounds, will remain more humid. Temperatures, humidity, airflow, and ventilation, all come into play to create the many different microclimates. We love our microclimates, as they let our frogs go somewhere if they are feeling a bit dry, or too hot. Designing your viv to try and create more microclimate zones, is a very worthwhile goal.
We can, however, still shoot for averages. An average humidity level of 90% is still too high. If you have an average of 90%, then microclimate zones will likely include over-saturated areas that can pose problems with bacterial infections. An average of around 70% is a much healthier goal, and is much less likely to hold over saturated areas.


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

I’ve vented the tank and I have a pc fan on the way for air flow. Do I need to take everything out of the tank and start over? Especially the substrate because it is and has been consistently wet?


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

But there is no bad odor coming from it right now.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

be careful with fans. They can easily dry things out too much and you will quickly go from too wet to too dry.

Passive air ventilation is primary. Don't equate air *movement* with ventilation.

More importantly, is that the frogs have @ 1/2 of the 'floorspace' or footprint to be dry. We usually cover about that much area with dry leaf litter - like small live oak leaves and magnolia leaves which are waxy and resist getting damp and rotting apart like oak and other softer leaves.

You never want the frogs to be confined to wetness. People often confuse these guys with North American animals like Bullfrogs ect, that live in the wet.

Dart frogs are often found walking or 'hanging out' on completely dry surfaces.

This is why you need to be careful with fans ect. A delicate balance of decent humidity - 70-80% with occasional misting but not true wetness needs to be achieved.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Philsuma said:


> More importantly, is that the frogs have @ 1/2 of the 'floorspace' or footprint to be dry. We usually cover about that much area with dry leaf litter - like small live oak leaves and magnolia leaves which are waxy and resist getting damp and rotting apart like oak and other softer leaves.


This is exactly my goal with dart frog vivs; around half the leaf litter should be dry most of the day. 

It can be hard to accurately measure 70-80% humidity with the cheaper instruments most people (including myself) regularly use. Ambient room air temperature and humidity, passive ventilation, and active air circulation are big variables that make it tough to create rules to fit all applications. 

_Make the footprint of your viv mostly leaf litter, and keep around half that leaf litter dry most of the day_ is my general guideline. If it's too dry, the frogs will probably just hide under the leaf litter and still be fine (though you won't see them much). They can't escape "too wet" though.


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## Colin303 (Apr 26, 2020)

This is awesome. Thank you guys for all the help. Are there any other tips you guys have that a beginner like me should know?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Colin303 said:


> Are there any other tips you guys have that a beginner like me should know?


Read archived DB threads. It doesn't matter what they are about. You'll pick up bits of wisdom in even apparently irrelevant discussions.


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