# mycobacterium likeliness



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

As I wrote in an earlier post, I lost a male mantella a few weeks ago to a nasty infection. I noticed first that the frog became very lethargic and could barely use its backlegs. I didn't notice it had a nasty, greyish lesion on it's abdomen until it was dead.

When I found the frog and called the vet, they said they could not do a biopsy or a necropsy because too much time has elapsed. Supposedly, you must do a biopsy within an hour of death. Necropsy, according to another veterinarian I contacted, must be given immediately.

Now, according to Ed Kowalski in PMs, the only way to know if my other frogs are infected is if they are showing signs of lesions that do not heal. It cannot be tested for unless the frogs are showing disease symptoms.

What is the likeliness the frog died of mycobacterium? Because the two remaining frogs are surplus females, I would like to sell them. I'm afraid of endangering other people, but I also don't know if it's right either to just euthanize them.

What should I do with the two frogs?


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

If you have even the slightest doubt, then I think you have the ethical responsibility to hold those frogs back.

Additionally - if they were tankmates of the frog that passed - they may be the first to show signs of the disease. If you do have mycobacterium in your collection - it would be something important to know about.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

yeah, and that's the dilemma. I do not know for sure; my vets said they couldn't because too much time elapsed. 

So, do you think I should euthanize the tankmates even though I couldn't get the dead frog tested?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> Now, according to Ed Kowalski in PMs, the only way to know if my other frogs are infected is if they are showing signs of lesions that do not heal. It cannot be tested for unless the frogs are showing disease symptoms.
> 
> 
> > Actually it can be tested for if the frogs are not showing symptoms by euthanasia and taking samples during the necropsy.
> ...


----------



## aquick (Jan 17, 2008)

If you immediately saved the corpse in a baggy or something in your fridge, your vet should be able to send the body out for necropsy...at least to do an acid-fast test (this tests for the presence of the _Mycobacterium_). Then again, I'm not a vet...but I do know a thing or two about microbiology, and so long as necrosis had not yet set in, testing should be possible...as for the other frogs, pull them into individual isolation in a clean environment and watch them. I would consider gutting the tank as well, because mycobacterium or not, something in that environment killed you frog.....and it should be eliminated.


----------



## aquick (Jan 17, 2008)

Oh, and one more thing....the disease that would worry me more (particularly for cooler weather lovers like mantellas) is chytridiomycosis---if this is the culprit, you have a BIG problem, and ALL frogs exposed will likely die...it is a fungus that has no effective treatment, although heat stress seems to mess with the fungus. Again, I'm no vet; but seeing as how the skin was affected (preferred target of _Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis_); I wouldn't rule it out.


----------



## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Unfortunate to hear about the male ebenaui Doug. Hang onto those females, if all you saw was a small discolored area it could be any number of things. Bacterial infections (have no experience with mycobacterium infections, just generalizing) in amphibians often are the result of a weakened immune system, so just because some creepy unicellular microorganism decided to take up residence in your male doesn't mean that it can do that in your remaining frogs provided their immune systems are up to par. If they were my frogs, I'd move the two females to simple setups for a while, watching them closely for any similar symptoms to develop, and of course quarantined from the other phibs.



> the disease that would worry me more (particularly for cooler weather lovers like mantellas) is chytridiomycosis---if this is the culprit


Certainly worth being worried about, but wouldn't really suspect it in this case because what doug described doesn't sound like it. You can also treat chytrid infections pretty easily using itraconazole as an alternative to heat treatments (which for mantellas would probably prove fatal).


----------



## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Oh yeah, was also going to comment on the gray lesion. Sometimes decomposing frogs can become discolored, so if you didn't notice this on the live frog it's really hard to say if this was a symptom of whatever the culprit was or not. But i guess that depends how long it was between the mantellas death and when you found it. Let us know how those two females do!


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

> If you immediately saved the corpse in a baggy or something in your fridge, your vet should be able to send the body out for necropsy...at least to do an acid-fast test (this tests for the presence of the Mycobacterium).


The vet told me it was too late.

I am fortunate these two females are NOT my WC breeders...

However, I am back down to my lone WC male again, and two CB females and two WC ones. I'm glad I did not introduce the CB Mark Pepper line frogs in with my WCs with this going on.

However, because of time constraints, i put these (formerly three) CB mantellas in my declining male cobalt tinc's tank after I moved him to another enclosure. I should have never done that; another reason why one should never reuse tanks without sterilizing. BUT BEFORE you all start chiding me (I already know it was stupid), I was pretty sure to begin with the male cobalt was just thin because he was being bullied by his tankmates once breeding began. Of course, that has proven NOT to be the stand alone cause. The male cobalt, who is actually doing better, has a strange lump on it's back that I'm planning on running a biopsy on.



> Oh yeah, was also going to comment on the gray lesion. Sometimes decomposing frogs can become discolored, so if you didn't notice this on the live frog it's really hard to say if this was a symptom of whatever the culprit was or not. But i guess that depends how long it was between the mantellas death and when you found it. Let us know how those two females do!


Interesting. That is where I found those nemetodes existing; worms that people said could be opportunistic scavengers. However, I was pretty sure I saw worms crawling around on the frog near the vent while it was still alive...but I never saw this discoloration until I found the frog dead.

If I would have seen this lesion before the frog died, I would have either gotten a biopsy immediately or necropsy since it was pretty far gone.


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

aquick said:


> If you immediately saved the corpse in a baggy or something in your fridge, your vet should be able to send the body out for necropsy...at least to do an acid-fast test (this tests for the presence of the _Mycobacterium_). Then again, I'm not a vet...but I do know a thing or two about microbiology, and so long as necrosis had not yet set in, testing should be possible


As you probably know, mycobacteria are ubiquitous organisms. So, simple microbiological stains for mycobacteria could easily result in a positive test - but there would be no evidence to say that the lesions caused were due to the bacteria. Fresh tissues are needed to biopsy and look for histological evidence of mycobacterial infection.

If the body is found shortly after death - with little obvious breakdown (swollen body, gross discoloration, odor, etc.) - then the sample can be placed in a plastic bag in an ice-bath (equal parts water and ice) and kept in the fridge while you contact your vet. The worst thing you can do is freeze the sample. You can also fix the animal in a formalin-solution if you have access to this.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

how do I make a formalin solution?
this is Zoopath's guidelines:
http://www.zoopath.com/SubmissionGuide.pdf


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

CORRECTION!

Oops! I forgot...now I remember. I found the greyish lesion the DAY BEFORE the frog died. I gave the frog a drop of metronidazole. The next day, it was dead.

Sorry about the confusion of the facts, but that rules out the discoloration after death.


----------



## aquick (Jan 17, 2008)

this lesion...large or small? round or irregular? slimy? Bacteria usually cause more irregular lesions than fungi, who cause smooth edged lesions. Also, did you notice any redness of the legs beforehand? all I'm saying is the likelihood of a Mycobaterial infection is rather small when compared to the more common infective agents, such as pathogenic fungi, Aeromonads and Pseudomonads, though not out of the question. In any case, isolate the frogs and disinfect the tank...with any luck, this was just an oppurtunistic infection taking advantage of a weak individual (to make the best of a bad situation); but you shouldn't take the chance. Also, don't euthanize any apparently healthy frogs...that's silly; wait for some sort of symptoms, then try to treat.

.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Aquick, not according to Ed:



> Actually it can be tested for if the frogs are not showing symptoms by euthanasia and taking samples during the necropsy.


The frog had a large gray spot on it's abdomen, close to the vent. It was a relatively small frog (compared to my WC male) and on the lean side. Dr. Frye did advice me to get a stool sample from the remaining animals.

If you read a previous post, an ill male cobalt lived in the quarantine tank before the mantellas took up residence. At first I thought the cobalt was only thin because he was being bullied by former tank mates...until I noticed he continued to lose weight months after his removal. The frog also has a bizarre lump on the back which I'm going to get biopsied. What ever the vet finds in the lump may prove crucial to understanding potential problems with what killed the male mantella.


----------



## aquick (Jan 17, 2008)

Ed is quite right, you could euthanize than take tissue from an appartently healthy frog and possibly isolate the culprit; I'm just saying that that is something I would never do--because if no pathogens are isolated during the necropsy, than you euthanized a healthy animal and gained nothing from it--that's simply a risk I wouldn't take. Have you got that tinc looked at yet? I'm interested to see what the possible pathogen is.


----------



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

No, I haven't looked at the tinc yet. Since it is not serious, (more likely benign) and the frog is gaining weight, I'm going to hold off until it gets warmer to send in a sample (so I can avoid the local exotic vet, which I said I really despise).

The temperature here at night is in the teens and single digits.

I need to know how to make a 10% formalin solution if I send the sample in to Zoopath.


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

The easiest way to get the solution is to ask a local vet for a biopsy container that contains the solution. It can be hard to get the formalin solution otherwise.

There are other ways of storing the tissue. There was a really good talk at FrogDay for preserving whole specimens - but I have lost the handout. You can also contact Northwest Zoopath regarding whether or not there are other acceptable alternatives to the formalin.


----------

