# mixing with tinctorius



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I know, I know, I've kept all sorts of amphibians long enough and know the risks involved in mixing species. You can chide me later :wink: 

Anyway, I have this really nice DIY cage that is nearly done. It is 18" wide x 20" tall, x 26" long. Pretty much a 40 gallon. My tinc will be moving in there, and hopefully with a female eventually.

Now, this definitely large enough to house another species with him, IF I didn't plan on breeding them...I think.

that's where my problem begins. I plan to breed any dart frog I get, and that is enough to cause the frogs to begin to fight each other. I know Jason Hupp used to keep a pair of auratus with azureus and bicolor, but later removed them from his 125 gallon because the breeding pair of aurats were getting aggressive.

I'd want a pair of terribilis to co exist with tincs, but once again, this almost sounds like wishful thinking. 

The only other option, if I feel "that" adventurous, would be a red eyed tree frog. But the cricket thing worries me about my tinc when he's sleeping. Even lobster roach diet is problematic because roaches are much hardier than crickets. I don't feel like I can dangle reheated frozen crickets in my RETF every time he needs to be fed like Jason Hupp has.

I decided that putting tricolors with my tinc is a bad idea considering they like it a bit cooler than he does.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

yeah, just forget it. Sorry guys. I just remembered that red eyes will destroy my bromeliads and delicate plants with their destructive leaping, regardless if the frogs got along.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I've kept my tricolors at the same temps as all my other darts... and while I haven't had tincs and tricolors at the same time its really the same temp anyways. Tricolors were housed with tincs (giant orange) for years at NAIB in the hidden life exhibit. They have a wide temp range, I wouldn't worry about it.

While many dendrobates would get along when in the same tank, most tinc group frogs would hybridize, so looking to breed your tincs nocks them out of the running. Thumbnails like imitators or vents might be in the running but I'd leave eggfeeders out.

As for phyllobates, terribilis and bicolor seem a bit big and agressive (at least feeding wise) than tincs, not to say they wouldn't get along... I just think something like some P. lugubris or vittatus might be better if you wanted to go that way.

TF wise... try Hourglass TFs (H. ebraccata) or Clown TFs (H. leucophyllata...sp?). Both stay smaller and I've had them do well with PDFs before. A couple of small sized crickets from your local petstore would do well to feed them. The smaller crickets couldn't do the damage you are worried about like the larger crix you'd feed RETFs, and its just a matter of putting in a chunk of sweet potato to keep the crix from munching other stuff (like your frogs and plants) and also get them out in the open at night when the TFs are hunting.

With a 40, personal opinion is that I'd scrap getting another PDF species with him, just get a bunch of others of his morph and get a nice group dynamic going. You could have two females in with a bunch of males and probibly not have a problem (enought room and males to keep them happy in seperate territories). If you really wanted another species, then go with the TFs to compliment the tank at night.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Yeah, but what about the lobster roaches? Eventually, crickets will die in such a humid and warm, wet environment. But tropical roaches?

Nobody has reported either about the breeding of flightless houseflies. I would like to have some.

Like you said, I personally would rather have a group of tincs to breed, as that is my goal with any frog species I get.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ideally you'd want to introduce the group of tincs to the big tank at the same time so you don't run into problems of having set territories and then frogs getting bitchy with a newcomer tresspassing, this would imply them all being about the same size/age. When they become sexable and what not, and you find you don't have the ratio you want, you can often trade with others for sexes which is easier than just trying to buy sexable frogs outright.

With hourglass and clowns I wouldn't feed lobster roaches, these are small frogs (1-2inches), and lobster roaches aren't really worth culturing just to get 1/3 growns unless you happen to have a culture going to feed other herps (you're looking at feeder insects the distance between the frogs eyes on a frog only 1.5 inches long, that isn't that big!). I've personally fed lobster roaches to geckos and a bearded dragon, but never tried them on the TFs. And yes, if you fed out too many, there would be a chance of them making a home in there. That also has to do with getting the amount to feed right, just like crickets. You don't need to worry about extra crickets running around once you figure out the amount to feed, and like I said before, a piece of sweet potato keeps them out in the open and easy targets.

Another trick for TFs (for the really paraniod or just people who want to keep track of how much is eaten) is putting the TF food items in a small bowl. I prefer ceramic cat saucers (also make good frog water bowls and dragon food bowls for about $3 at PetsMart) for larger species, but even just a petri dish for such small frogs can work. This bowl becomes the designated feeding spot and keeps the critters from running loose and in a bowl they tend to keep more dust on them then when they are running around. Just nip the back legs off the crickets so they can't hop and this works great (as well as for termites, wax worms, silk worms, mealies and relatives, and roaches like wood roaches that can't climb glass). I don't remember if lobster roaches can climb glass or not.... if they can't, then the nymphs would be great canidates for the bowl feedings.

The flightless houseflies would be a great sized suppliment to the diet, but I believe the formula for raising them on is still being worked out, so they haven't been made publically available. You aren't the only one waiting on them, I'm sure they'll go fast when they are ready.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Yes, lobsters will climb glass. However, I would like to just feed nymphs anyway, as I would also like to use them for my firebellies. But I DO know that roaches will live a while without there heads. Despite it seems a little inhumane, the roaches will still be running around without a chance that they could attack the frog.

I just don't want to have to dehead things every time I turn around, in case I'm busy or hard pressed.

Would you recommend me keeping both species of frogs separate, just so I can become familiar with each's habits (at least the hylids, as I know my tinc very well), in separate tanks, and THEN try and introduce them?

I've considered Hyperolius and Heterixalus, captive bred species. However, I am not familiar with the temperature requirements, as Africa is much different than SA. That could compromise breeding of old world tree frogs, so I'd have to remove them in the winter for rain chamber and proper cycling. I do believe heterixalis and hyperolius lay there eggs above water.

Before I even TRY and mix, I should become familiar with tree frogs first. I think that is where beginners fail when they try to mix as they just don't understand each animals special needs first.

Don't I need to take all the frogs out though and change the medium every couple of weeks? I have heard that hylids are pretty messy.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

The climbing glass part would be why I never tried to keep lobster roaches and went with wood roaches instead, lol. Again, I really can't comment on these guys being fed out in a planted terrarium with TFs, because I've never fed them out where they last 5 minutes and that was not with TFs but hand feeding lizards. It might just have to be something to try and see how it goes with one or two nymphs.

I don't recomend reed frogs, as I don't know if they have the same requirements. If you plan to breed them as well, whats the point of putting them in the tank if you just plan to take them out? There are plenty of latin american treefrogs that would do well with them and have the same requirements.

I recomend Clowns and Hourglass repeatidly because they do share the same requirements (even some latin american TFs like larger phyllomedusas might like it drier, these don't), and size wise won't destroy plants or what not like you were afraid adult RETFs would. These two treefrogs aren't bigger size wise than a large tinc... and if a large tinc won't take out the plants, these frogs won't either. They just happen to like slightly larger food items. If you kept them with terribilis or bicolors, they'd all eat the same things lol.

You wouldn't need to change out the medium any more than you would with dart frogs. Setting up a terrarium for darts creates a mini ecosystem that with plants especially will break down waste easily. These guys don't produce much more than your tincs will. All you need to do is rinse your tank well once a week or so which will get frog poo (from both sets of frogs) off the plants and down to the ground where it can degrade. I do this with a hand mister, and is something that should be done anyways, TFs or not, as tincs will go everywhere in that tank lol.

Only with the larger TFs would you have to think about changing the litter very often (where it might just be easier to have a tub to rinse out) and I don't think we are talking phyllomedusa bicolors here. Only in high densities of the larger frogs would you have to do the rinsing that was talked about.

You want to quarentine any frogs you get, and you can either set up a 10 vert, 15/16/18 gallon vert, or 20T tank for a group of TFs. In the 60-90 days you'd want to quarentine them, you'd get to know their habits pretty well. If you decide to go the bowl route, this is also a great time to get them used to the idea.

Both of these species have been captive bred in the past, and are occassionally available as such.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I know H. leucophyllata have been bred. Mascarino had them at one time, but I would never ever buy from them. Never seen H. ebraccata offered before. I haven't looked much into hylids, mostly because of the cricket thing. I had lobster roaches for a day, but they were pretty much dead as I got ripped off, and never got a refund. The trick to keeping them from climbing is use vaseline, or even better, "Bug Stop" in their container. I would find that to be an advantage in a vivarium though, as a moon glow bulb with a silhoette on the glass of a roach nymph would catch a tree frogs attention.

If you know of who is breeding leucos and ebracs, please let me know. Once, again, money is always an issue. I've spent WAY too much on frogs lately, i need therapy for this addiction. :lol:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You and these roaches, lol. 

All the best/easyiest ways to get a roach to stop climbing up the sides I wouldn't use in a frog tank, so I just don't bother with them.

I haven't seen ebracs since that big flux of them a year and a half or something ago. Sean Stewart had bought a bunch. I don't know who originally bred them, or if they are going to agian. As for the clowns (as to not confuse H. leucs with D. leucs) Brian Corey successfully bred them I believe (http://www.geocities.com/frogaddictions/) but I don't know when any more will be available.

They are both species I hope to breed in the future, but its gonna be when I have my frogs out of my bred room (at least the TFs) so those little buggers don't keep me up at night!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Yah, that is one reason why I've stuck to Dendros more. The firebellied toads, and even worse, when I still had Xenopus laevis laevis, are loud enough to keep my mom awake all the way in another room.

It got so loud once I stayed in my sister's room, and STILL could here my old male Xenopus calling.

Oh yeah, since I'm so obsessed with roaches :lol: , I meant vaseline in the actual roach cage, not in my frog tank. My tinc loves to climb too much.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you could sex the roaches then you could feed out only one sex and not worry about. I have a culture of Green Banana Roaches to use for feeders as they are small enough that most of my herps can easily consume them and they will die if any get loose in the house. An important point to remember with roaches is that they will eat frog eggs, so if any get established in the cage then you can expect them to eat the eggs. 

I strongly recommend not using any nonsympatric species. 

Ed


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