# "Recipe" for the most visible thumbnail?



## Hashbaz (May 14, 2011)

My wife would like our next frog species to be small. They don't have to be thumbnails by the strict definition, but she wants them to be really small.

I want a frog that is going to be very visible in the vivarium. Larger groups of frogs might make it easier for there to be at least one visible frog when someone looks in the vivarium. In all of the searching I have done, I have found no consensus for the most visible thumbnail. I hoped that adding more data to the equation might help.

Here is what I mean by the best "recipe":

- Frog species/morph
- Number of frogs
- Sex ratio of frogs
- Tank size/shape (but I don't have room for bigger than 24x18x24)
- Humidity levels
- Plant types
- Lots of plants or fewer plants
- Lots of wood or less wood
- etc.

I know there won't be a consensus on this, but what I would really like to hear is something like this:

"If you do this (blah blah) then you can't go wrong"

Thanks!


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## InvertaHerp (Mar 4, 2013)

Frogs tend to embolden when they have more places to hide, for one.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Frog small, but not necessarily thumbs; frog bold; groups frog...

No doubt Epipedobates spp. are the best choice. So:

- Epipedobates spp (St Isabel are the cheapest) 
- For this size viv, I would say, max 5 (they breed like rabbits)
- Sex ratio: 3.2 
- Humidity: same as for other dart frogs (epips are generally tolerant in high and low humidity, but my epips "Highland" dislike wet soil) 
- Regarding the plants, climbing plants in the background, broadleaf plants (pothos, philodendron, begonia spp.) on which they lay their eggs. You do not need broms 
- With regard to the quantity, in my opinion it is better not to put in a lot of different species of plants, but try to create a balanced and natural rainforest viv 
- Woods enough that provide visible barriers to males and how to climb (males occupy the highest spot to call, chosen according to the internal hierarchy of the group)

Hope this help


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

aren't the E.St Isabel's really, really loud???


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

This was your most important prerequisite (besides small).


Hashbaz said:


> I want a frog that is going to be very visible in the vivarium.


I'm going to go with Rigel10. I don't think you want thumbnails. I think you should take a good look at Epipedobates.

While you are deciding, keep in mind that when someone says a thumbnail is bold, generally we mean bold...for a thumbnail. Thumbnails in general, are much shyer than many of the other darts we keep. Epipedobates, on the other hand, are only a bit bigger than thumbnails, but otherwise meet your prerequisite list.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Judy S said:


> aren't the E.St Isabel's really, really loud???


Given that I love their call, of course if you have two or three males, you will hear a true concert, but their call is pleasant.
Loud, how much? My Solarte male call is louder. And then everything is relative: I have a neighbor who has some Melopsittacus... those are really noisy!


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## The Dendrobatidae Project (Dec 13, 2013)

out of all my thumbs the varadero imitator's are the most bold, I always see them out and they have a quiet call.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

My varadero I see 4 out of the 6 in the vivarium at any given time during the day. I house them in a well overgrown 35 gallon hex that needs to be trimmed.


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## Hashbaz (May 14, 2011)

Hmmm... I have had my eye on the Epipedobates anthonyi for a while now, but I think my wife would prefer something a little smaller. I'll have to see what she thinks.


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## L8apex (May 2, 2014)

No votes for pums? Esperanza, for example. I can see all of mine in a 24x18x24 1.3 "harem"  not all pums are bold, but in a good viv they are pretty neat. Wait til she sees froglets and the neat breeding behavior!

My only thumbs are benedicta and I joked it was just a planted tank for three months, now they're getting brave, but I always hear thumbs are on the shy end of the spectrum


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

To avoid future problems, I think it is better to follow the desires of the wives. Lol! 
However, epips are pretty small: females are an inch long, my Highland male (measured on the glass front) is 20 mm. 
Among the thumbs that I know (including my own and those of various friends), the most bold are Ranitomeya intermedius 'Banded'.


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## Hashbaz (May 14, 2011)

rigel10 said:


> To avoid future problems, I think it is better to follow the desires of the wives. Lol!


This is very true!


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

The frogs will do what they want to do....


if you have bold frogs, they will be bold...if they're shy and frightened they will hide.


whatever tank and "presents" you prepare for them...


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## LizardLicker (Aug 17, 2012)

I think southern variabilis are a good candidate if you want something really visible. They are a bit larger, but they look amazing in person. 

When I got my group, I hardly ever saw them. Once the tank finished growing in after a bit of time I started to see them all the time. I just took a quick look, and all of them were visible hopping around doing their thing. 

Not sure about a ratio, but a calling male would probably help you see them more. When one of my males call there is always tons of activity.


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## The Dendrobatidae Project (Dec 13, 2013)

I would also agree with LizardLicker, the variabilis are bold, I have some available if you are interested


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

It may be hit or miss as to their boldness, but R. vanzolinii is one of my favorite thumbs. Mine are the boldest species I keep and are just as visible as my azureus and not a bit shy. On the other hand, I have heard of people who rarely ever see them. Their call is also very pleasant (at least to me) and I love listening to them daily.

To up your chances of seeing your frogs, give them plenty of hiding places so they feel secure. A thick layer of leaf litter and lots of plants will be appreciated by the frogs. 

Good luck!

John


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