# mold everywhere



## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

Hello, I've got a 29 gallon tank with 4 luecs that has a very big mold problem. There is white mold in spots all over the inside and top of the substrate, and it's starting to hurt my plants. I've tried to add more springtails, even buried them, but the frogs still manage to eat them all. Could I temporarily relocate the frogs while I let the springtails do their thing, or is there a better way to get rid of it? Or should I just scrap the whole thing and start over? I really don't want to do that because I have some ferns that are really doing well and I really like the placement of everything, but if I have to, I will. Help anyone?


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## fishmommy (Dec 23, 2006)

I am a total noob, so take what I say with about a gallon of salt 

What is your humidity level? If you can lower the humidity while keeping it in a safe range for your frogs, the mold might lose it's grip....?


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

actually my humidity is already pretty low, it's around 65%-70% most of the time. My frogs seem to like it though, they're always out and about and calling and everything, and it helps my broms do well, even those that are planted. Maybe if I raised the humidity?


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## Smogre (Aug 11, 2006)

I'm a newb too but knowing how much time I've spent on my viv, I would put the frogs in their quarantee tanks and let the springtails get caught up versus scrappin it.

Do you have any pictures?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Mold is a natural part of a new vivarium. The mold is just responding to the abundance of organic matter available in a warm and humid environment. If you plants are suffering, the mold is almost certainly only a secondary symptom and not the cause. The most common problems are too much water and/or too little light. The two are intertwined because as you increase light levels, you also increase the tolerance the plants have of wet feet.

In all cases that I have seen (and I have seen a lot), time will take care of the problem. You may have to readjust some of the plants to get a better match between the plants and the available conditions. Or you may want to increase the light levels which will allow for a broader range of plants to be grown.

A description of your lights and the plant species being grown may help. Also, how wet is your substrate?


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## fishmommy (Dec 23, 2006)

well there goes my theory :lol: 

I am anxious to know the solution to this also...it's a good question!


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

The substrate is slightly damp, but that's it. The leca balls on the bottom are wet though. I don't have a lot of light in there, just an old hood lamp, so I'll replace that with a brighter bulb and see how it goes. Thanks!


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

Ok I just tossed an extra 60w light on top, and wow, I guess I never realized how dark it was in there. So that should help! I'll let you know how it works!


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## fishmommy (Dec 23, 2006)

just watch your temps with the new light on it


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

fishmommy said:


> just watch your temps with the new light on it


Yes, if you are using incandescent bulbs, I think you will be a lot happier with a good flourescent setup. Incandescent bulbs just produce a lot of heat and not much light. But it does sound like increasing the light should do the trick.

Even sopping wet substrate isn't necessarily a problem if you have the right balance of light and plant species to go with it. But it sounds like your substrate moisture is fine.

Good luck.


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## shannnak (Dec 14, 2006)

Can't you also get in there with a toothbrush and carefully remove some mold? That's what the exotics store where I get my supplies told me to do if I ever got mold.


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

> Can't you also get in there with a toothbrush and carefully remove some mold? That's what the exotics store where I get my supplies told me to do if I ever got mold.


I could, but the mold that's on the surface isn't the problem, it's the mold in the soil itself that's killing my plants roots.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Scrubbing off the mold may make things appear "nicer" for awhile but doesn't really change the basic situation. Mold is actually a beneficial part of the vivarium ecosystem which breaks down carbon rich organic matter to recycle nutrients. New vivs have a lot of fresh organic matter exposed for decomposition that leads to a bloom in the fungus until things come into "balance". Given time these things always settle down. Although there are disease fungi, the types of molds we find in vivaria almost never kill plant roots. Rather, what happens is the roots die and then start to decompose. The most obvious evidence of the decomposition is the appearance of mold which leads to the impression that the mod is killing the plant. What actually is happening is that the mold is just cleaning up the parts that have already died.


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

Just a quick update in case anyone cares. The mold hasn't gotten smaller, but unlike in the last few weeks, it hasn't gotten bigger either. And the broms are all looking more colorful. So all in all, adding more lights was a good idea!


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

SusannahJoy, I have a question for you. Do you have any type of moss in your viv? 
If so, did the mold first appear in that area?

I had mold develop in my viv about 4 weeks ago, inside the coco bedding like you, and it's been growing more and more each week, All of it is inside the coco bedding. In my case I can see it through the one side of glass. Over the summer I purchased some moss, species unknown, at a reptile show. The moss never really took off, most even dying off. I've just left it there and under it is where I have noticed where the mold is mostly growing. Yes, I had incresased my daily misting over the last few months in order to for the moss to get growing. I also recently read a thread on here, by kero ??? somebody, that mention moss/coco bedding pH and the reason mold takes off.

bbrock, are you aware of any true "facts" on this. I wish I could remember the person who wrote about this. his/her name was kero (_something_)????


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

I don't have any moss. I tried some a long time ago, and it never worked, so I removed it. It is possible that some got left in there though... The mold in my tank first appeared through the side of the glass as well.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Mold, schmold, Brent has the facts on this. While there are indeed pathogenic fungi specific to certain plants, especially in agriculture, and pathologically significant fungi that attack animals, this isn't what is occurring in a vivarium. 

Everyone at first seems to have a panic attack when the first molds or fungi, whatever you want to call them, show up on the glass and in the substrate, on logs and such. If your plants are dying and the leaves seem to be full of molds, there is something wrong with either the placement of your plants to suit their individual needs, the general set up for drainage of the substrate, or you are using inappropriate plants for the humidity and tropical temperatures and light. 

Usually the first set up of a vivarium goes somewhat like this: One sees a strange straggling of white fungus on the glass. (Normal, just wipe it off so you can see better.) The wood and substrate show molds of various sorts. Algae occurs. Just wipe it off the glass, and otherwise ignore it elsewhere. One sees weird white "worms" crawling on the glass, that resemble strongyle parasites. They aren't parasites. One sees tiny bugs in the substrate, or suddenly an infestation of creepy millipedes, dangerous looking, but harmless organic feeders. They are eating organic matter. Then, "Oh my God," a mushroom pops up-- if one is lucky. If you get a shroom, THAT is a healthy environment. There's a lot of organisms doing their job of maintaining a balance. Slugs and some snails, introduced from plants, may be more problematic, but just pick them out manually, and put up with a few holes in leaves, otherwise. They will come and go, as will the other critters. 

If a plant rots off and dies, simply replace it with something else more appropriate to the environment. You don't have to take down the entire tank and attempt to sterilize it.


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

Oh, well yeah I know that you have to expect a certain amount of mold, especially in new tanks. The problem is that this is not a new tank and the white mold everywhere is ugly. It's covering probably 20% of the surface and about 15% of the soil that I can see through the glass. It's become more noticeable than the plants or frogs. I don't like it. lol. The mushrooms and the nematodes were fine, actually I'd love to see more mushrooms, I haven't had one in that tank is probably 4 months. I just don't like all the white spots everywhere!


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

DartMan said:


> bbrock, are you aware of any true "facts" on this. I wish I could remember the person who wrote about this. his/her name was kero (_something_)????


I'm not sure which true facts you are looking for but fungus/mold will grow anytime you have a carbon rich food source that is damp but aerated, and warm. By carbon source I mean organic matter. As a gross generalization, the primary decomposers in the world are fungi and bacteria. The main nutrients that drive decomposition are nitrogen and carbon. Carbon provides the energy source (sugar) for growth, and nitrogen allows for the production of proteins and other essential structures. Leaves and wood fiber are typically high in carbon and relatively low nitrogen. This creates a nitrogen limited environment (where microbes run out of nitrogen while still having plenty of carbon). Fungi and bacteria compete with each other over these resources and when nitrogen is scarce, fungi typically do much better. So when we use coco fiber, wood chips, or other high carbon organic substances for substrate, you get a lot of fungal growth which is good. Fungal growth can be affected by pH because most fungi grow best in neutral to slightly alkaline pH's but there is a lot of variability to this. You can still get mold in peat moss even though it is acidic but often it will grow more slowly than on other substrates. But that isn't always the case as there are many variables involved including the species or strains of fungi present.

I have know idea if that answers the question but the bottom line is that any dead plant material is going to eventually decompose and fungi and bacteria are going to be involved in that process.


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Brent, THANKS SO MUCH for that information and especially for the "tone" in which you put it in and the way you explained it. You answered my questions and concerns in a very nice manner. Thanks a lot guy!



slaytonp said:


> Everyone at first seems to have a panic attack when the first molds or fungi, whatever you want to call them, show up on the glass and in the substrate, on logs and such.


Sorry if my concerns seemed stupid and my questions seem to incurr that I'm such a dumb*ss, but what you don't know or understand about me is that I have asthma and allergies REAL bad. Bad enough that I have to take an inhaler (Advair 500/50) twice daily along with Singulair daily as well for it. So when I see mold growing in my viv that sits right next to my bed I have a concern about it. It's not a very nice feeling when you have an attact and scarier than all get out when it happens. Have you ever taken a trip to the hospital's Emergency Room for an asthma attack, wondering if that'll be your last beath?
So, if I have a "panic attack" when I see mold, it's still better than having an "asthma attack" and being afaid to ask questions about it.

Sorry for the "panic".


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I didn't infer you were dumb-- Nearly everyone has this reaction with a first wet tank, which was my point. It was also my own when I first started out, so I know the feeling. Writing sometimes comes out sharper than a verbal conversation, so I'm sorry about that. 

You do have something particular to be concerned about, however. I'm a (retired) microbiologist, and have seen more than one asthma attack, one fatal, and would not ever scoff at this possibility. This is possibly where you might consider "plastic" plants and logs, as well as a neutral substrate, and forgo the biological recycling idea altogether. Here is where you might consider something like a sphagnum substrate for the frogs' sake, because it does have to be damp. The long brown sphagnum moss has a kind of antibiotic quality and prevents a lot of molds-- such as those that cause damping off of seedlings. You can use ceramic type decorations and huts, and will be able to keep the plastic plants quite clean by removing and rinsing them in vinegar water occasionally, as well as wiping down the glass with paper towels dipped in vinegar. (The vinegar fumes don't seem to be harmful to the frogs, but when I use it on the glass, I blow a fan across the top to disperse them quickly.) 

I hope this helps. Again, I apologize for coming across as snotty. It certainly wasn't meant to be that way.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Over the years I've seen a number of cases where people with asthma and allergy problems were encouraged to give up their vivaria by their doctors. Some have, and some have not. But what has always troubled the scientist within me about these recommendations is whether vivaria really contribute to an increase in mold spores in the patient's environment. Vivaria can be designed with very little outside air exchange which it seems would serve to contain the spores within the enclosure. My suspicion is that a vivarium actually contributes relatively few mold spores to a patient's environment and that HEPA filtration and wearing masks while working the vivaria may easily compensate any release of spores. I'm no doctor and could certainly be wrong, but some of the reasoning and recommendations I've heard people receive regarding their allergies and vivaria seemed to be very knee-jerk without much data to back them. Afterall, our homes are full of potentially lethal substances carefully packaged away in jars and boxes where they can do no harm. So sure, a vivarium may contain potentially harmful, or even fatal, substances for a sensitive patient. But is it really any different from a box of rat poison safely stowed in the locked cabinet in the garage? I'm only asking the question. I don't know the answer.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

I think you're right to a large degree, Brent, as some of the original spores were possibly even in the room air in the first place, but they are pretty flighty stuff, often invisible. In a micro lab, there are special cabinets to grow and examine pathogenic fungi, with micro-filters, laminar air flow, sealed access gloves, and the whole nine yards to prevent spores from escaping, similar to what is used for culturing TB. Even with this, there are incidents where a worker will become exposed and infected. If someone has the very severe allergies that were described by DartMan, an inadvertent concentration of them might really impose serious problems, and I would be the first to err on the side of caution if this were the case with me or one of my family, although with a good immune system and lack of allergies to molds or other problems, I personally don't pay any attention to those in a vivarium. You notice that I didn't suggest giving up the tank and the idea of keeping darts. I know a lot of physicians, some allergists among them, who do have that knee-jerk reaction of extreme over-caution, mostly to protect themselves in these days of equally knee-jerk law suits.


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