# Tinctorius ID



## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Can anyone confirm ID on this morph? Thanks.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

I think I know, but out of curiosity what did you buy it as?


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

I have a suspicion too, be interesting to see if we match up! They were sold as "Brazils" which is usually the European name for yellow heads.


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## godjockey (Nov 14, 2009)

I opened this link very confidently but was stumped at first glance.

I'm really thinking Suriname Cobalt.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay, step back for a moment, you have a frog of unknown provenance that was sold as "Brazilian" which doesn't mean that it was correctly identified and that is before we consider that there is a vendor dumping frogs onto the pet trade market that are identified solely on how they appear without regard to actual parentage as they do not believe that hybrids between disparate populations are "hybrids". A number of the populations are also very variable in appearance and that frog could originate from more than one population (before we consider the whole hybrid thing). 

In short, without DNA analysis to confirm a specific population (referred to as a morph by the hobby), you will never know what is the history of the frog and if you attempt to pair it up and breed it, you should honestly represent the offspring as potential hybrids as you can't be sure you have the correct populations paired up. 

some comments 

Ed


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

Hi Ed, 
I have two males of this frog, so they won't be producing any offspring and I wouldn't attempt to anyway, seeing as they are unidentified. 

These were the first frogs I ever bought, before I had much knowledge of Tinctorius morphology. "Brazil" seems to be a common designation in the UK/Dutch/Germany hobby scene (sold as Brazilianen/Brasilianer there, obviously), however they appear to have different markings to what is sold as "Brazilian Yellow Head" or "Brazilian Cobalt" in the US? 

Description (auto translated from German) from:
http://www.tinctorius.ch/index.php?id=15

" 
D.tinc. 'Brazilian' (picture: Peter Maier)

,Brazilian'

Large morph with a KRL of up to 60 mm

The exact location and the distribution is not available! According to a personal message from J. Avaros, he is close to Villanova in the district Amapá .

How and when this Morph first appeared in the terrarium, nobody could tell me."

Seems pretty vague, huh? 

There is then reference to D. Tinctorius "Dasha", which was apparently a certain collection point of Cobalts, imported by Dutch Rana into Europe. This appears to be visually quite similar to the frogs I have, but again not totally. Unfortunately, most of the info regarding this seems to be dead links from 6-7 years ago. 

It's all extremely vague. I did wonder if they're just hybrids? I originally purchased them from the sole brick & mortar UK dart frog retailer and, some months after purchasing them, asked why they had different markings to the ones others in the UK hobby had on forums etc. He put it to me that "Brazils" are very variable, but then did admit he bought the froglets from someone who walked into the store with them one day. 

I guess they're always destined to be Mystery Tinctorius! As stated earlier, no intention to breed these due to issues mentioned in this thread. 





Ed said:


> Okay, step back for a moment, you have a frog of unknown provenance that was sold as "Brazilian" which doesn't mean that it was correctly identified and that is before we consider that there is a vendor dumping frogs onto the pet trade market that are identified solely on how they appear without regard to actual parentage as they do not believe that hybrids between disparate populations are "hybrids". A number of the populations are also very variable in appearance and that frog could originate from more than one population (before we consider the whole hybrid thing).
> 
> In short, without DNA analysis to confirm a specific population (referred to as a morph by the hobby), you will never know what is the history of the frog and if you attempt to pair it up and breed it, you should honestly represent the offspring as potential hybrids as you can't be sure you have the correct populations paired up.
> 
> ...


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## evolvstll77 (Feb 17, 2007)

Thank You Ed for your constant knowledge adding to the threads here. Some thoughts.......... properly cared for these tincs may live 20 plus years. What is the average time someone spends in the hobby before their frogs get sold to the four corners of the Earth? It will not take long for a few misidentified and or hybrids to get into irresponsible hands and dilute/pollute the small population of frogs already out there.


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## ATA86 (Feb 11, 2017)

I would imagine this has already happened a fair amount and will continue to, unfortunately. 



evolvstll77 said:


> Thank You Ed for your constant knowledge adding to the threads here. Some thoughts.......... properly cared for these tincs may live 20 plus years. What is the average time someone spends in the hobby before their frogs get sold to the four corners of the Earth? It will not take long for a few misidentified and or hybrids to get into irresponsible hands and dilute/pollute the small population of frogs already out there.


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