# "Agreja" tinctorius



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I hadn't been on kingsnake in a few days so I went to check out what was available and in the dart frog and mantella classifieds, I noticed an ad for Agreja morph tinctorius which is a known outcross... 

For discussion on the origin of the hybrid see Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide 

The main plus is that the person is clearly advertising it as a outcross (labeled as a hybrid) but care should be taken to make sure that questions of identification aren't actually from this cross being sold into the hobby at large. 

Some comments

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I didn't realize these were still around.

Also, as I've said before...an outcross is a hybrid.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Is it just me that finds it ironic that the name looks like it could be pronounced like "egregious"?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Best defense is folks knowing that they will never be able to sell offspring in the hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stemcellular said:


> Best defense is folks knowing that they will never be able to sell offspring in the hobby.


Hence the need to have a discussion about them... 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Oh ffs, I looked up who was selling. Another wonderful moment for LV. For the record I have been breeding powder blues for some time, but have my first azureus tads in the water now.

I have witnesses!! 
Thanks for the heads up.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I read this on kingsnake last night.The thing that pisses me off about these is the fact that they seem to be proud of their ''cb beautiful hybrids'',which means they are purposely producing these.How many are they producing and why?I don't get it.If you are breeding and have any morals keep the lines clean.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> Best defense is folks knowing that they will never be able to sell offspring in the hobby.


This ad shows that they can and will and are being sold in the hobby. Maybe to most in this small section of the hobby they will be looked down upon but speaking for the hobby just is not factual. I do not know if these particular hybrids will spark much interest since they just look like Patricia tincs to me. The best defense is creating an atmosphere that allows sellers to post exactly what they are selling.


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## morg (Jul 28, 2012)

Does this place have a storefront? I'm headed to Vegas in 2 weeks. Ill try to sneak some photos if available.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Can someone direct me to a thread that talks about why people refrain from hybridizing. 

I understand it to some extent with fish...but people mainly do that with fish that are pretty rare and they want to ensure that those lines stay clean and pure so that we have the fish in the future. 

Not asking for any responses here, I just want the information so that I can be brought up to speed. 

Thanks


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/85358-scientific-reasons-not-mixing-frogs.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/85165-ideology-behind-not-mixing-morphs.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/82815-so-why-does-everyone-hate-hybrids.html

these are just a few of the many threads out there



kingfisherfleshy said:


> Can someone direct me to a thread that talks about why people refrain from hybridizing.
> 
> I understand it to some extent with fish...but people mainly do that with fish that are pretty rare and they want to ensure that those lines stay clean and pure so that we have the fish in the future.
> 
> ...


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Edit: Sorry, looks like someone beat me to it. That's the problem with opening up a bunch of threads at once and then reading them throughout the day!


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> I understand it to some extent with fish...but people mainly do that with fish that are pretty rare and they want to ensure that those lines stay clean and pure so that we have the fish in the future.


You nailed one of the reasons right there.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> This ad shows that they can and will and are being sold in the hobby. Maybe to most in this small section of the hobby they will be looked down upon but speaking for the hobby just is not factual. I do not know if these particular hybrids will spark much interest since they just look like Patricia tincs to me. The best defense is creating an atmosphere that allows sellers to post exactly what they are selling.


Ostracization of those who create, purchase or sell out crosses or hybrids will work wonders


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Not to go off subject but are the blue jeans listed even available in the hobby?I've never seen them offered


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

marylanddartfrog said:


> Not to go off subject but are the blue jeans listed even available in the hobby?I've never seen them offered


I'm not sure what this question has to do with the subject of this thread. 

If you are referring to pumilio from Costa Rica, then yes they are available. Demand is typically high enough that you don't see captive bred animals offered frequently. There have been some imports from Europe that look to be laundered animals. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

stemcellular said:


> Ostracization of those who create, purchase or sell out crosses or hybrids will work wonders


That really does not work at all. Everyone here knows I keep mixed tanks and that I have hybrids. Yet I have not had a single issue selling frogs or purchasing them from anyone either.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> Everyone here knows I keep mixed tanks and that I have hybrids.


I didn't.... Thanks for the heads up.


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

why do people keep putting hybrid threads in beginner discussion. Isn't that like the worst place for them to go?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Jellyman said:


> That really does not work at all. Everyone here knows I keep mixed tanks and that I have hybrids. Yet I have not had a single issue selling frogs or purchasing them from anyone either.


I would never sell to or purchase frogs from you. Nothing personal, but I don't support the creation of hybrids. I also don't sell or trade or purchase from folks that I suspect treat their frogs poorly, or have frogs of questionable stock (not saying that this is the case with you, just another example of my criteria). 

We each have a choice to make. I totally support your right to do whatever the heck you want to do with your frogs. But I will not support or contribute to it. One of the things that I really like about this hobby is the appreciation that many folks have for how species, and distinct populations within species, evolved as a result of geological or environmental change. Creating hybrids, out crosses, etc. seems crass in that context.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

winstonamc said:


> why do people keep putting hybrid threads in beginner discussion. Isn't that like the worst place for them to go?


I think this placement was probably meant as a warning so that beginners don't go purchase those frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dev30ils said:


> I think this placement was probably meant as a warning so that beginners don't go purchase those frogs.


Correct or at least don't purchase them and attempt to visually allocate them as to a real morph... 

A lot of people go through the beginner threads hence it probably gives it the widest exposure but there have been more than a few crossing or hybrid threads in the advanced sections... 

Ed


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

right but the way these things invariably go...somebody always knows better


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure what this question has to do with the subject of this thread.
> 
> If you are referring to pumilio from Costa Rica, then yes they are available. Demand is typically high enough that you don't see captive bred animals offered frequently. There have been some imports from Europe that look to be laundered animals.
> 
> ...


On the list of tincs at the top of the real morphs there's a tinc called blue jeans


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure what this question has to do with the subject of this thread.
> 
> If you are referring to pumilio from Costa Rica, then yes they are available. Demand is typically high enough that you don't see captive bred animals offered frequently. There have been some imports from Europe that look to be laundered animals.
> 
> ...


Its morph #4 on the morph guide


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

marylanddartfrog said:


> On the list of tincs at the top of the real morphs there's a tinc called blue jeans


Ah gotcha, I don't think I've ever seen them for sale here in the states. 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

I appreciate that the seller is openly identifying these frogs as "hybrids", but it seems a bit duplicitous for them to still refer to them as "Agreja", a name that was clearly chosen to trick people into thinking they were location-specific.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> I appreciate that the seller is openly identifying these frogs as "hybrids", but it seems a bit duplicitous for them to still refer to them as "Agreja", a name that was clearly chosen to trick people into thinking they were location-specific.


I would strongly suspect that the person who sold them the froglets identified them as such.... 

Ed


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## Krenshaw22 (Apr 21, 2011)

The frogs are still up for sell on the site. Wonder if anyone actually have bought any? It's a shame I hope the people offering them for sell will be stuck with them lol 

Sent from my Desire HD


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## jibfest (Dec 1, 2010)

This is truly a sad day for the hobby


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

So when this thread first started, I felt like being a smart ass so I emailed them to see if they really had "Hybrid" PDFs for sale, they sent me an email back "I only have 6. They are tincs x azuruas. I normally don't carry them, but did end up with these. Very pretty. Give us a call if you'd like to arrange payment and shipping". I replied "no thanks, just checking to see if people really do sell hybrids", needless to say reply from them was not very nice.


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## ghostpilot (Dec 29, 2011)

The reply to that email has sparked my intrest.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yeah seriously....why hold out. Post it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ndame88 said:


> So when this thread first started, I felt like being a smart ass so I emailed them to see if they really had "Hybrid" PDFs for sale, they sent me an email back "I only have 6. They are tincs x azuruas. I normally don't carry them, but did end up with these. Very pretty. Give us a call if you'd like to arrange payment and shipping". I replied "no thanks, just checking to see if people really do sell hybrids", needless to say reply from them was not very


I suspect that he has been fielding a lot of flak from people...and is probably frustrated. I've dealt with that seller in the past and he is one of the overall decent people in the hobby and has been around for a quite awhile. He isn't a frog person and I doubt was aware of how a segment of the frog hobby percieved the frogs and is clearly denoting thier origin which is significantly better than how some who are active participants in the hobby behave (for example selling frogs that are clearly laundered).

People have to remember that hybrid frogs wouldn't be a problem if 
1) people didn't attempt to identify frogs to morph or population based on how they look visually
2) participated in programs that tracked the lineages of frogs..... 

Taking a whack at a seller is really a cheap shot since the hobby are the ones maintaining the status quo that makes the topic problematic...... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Bumping this thread to make everyone aware that Exotic Pets has again placed another ad for these hybrids. 
kingsnake.com Classifieds: Agreja Dart Frogs
This goes on and yet we still have people arguing that they don't care about ethics. Well this is what that lack of ethics leads to. Enjoy your hybrids. 
The phone number is on the ad. What if a bunch of hobbyists called and voiced their displeasure at the fact he's selling hybrids.


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Bumping this thread to make everyone aware that Exotic Pets has again placed another ad for these hybrids.
> kingsnake.com Classifieds: Agreja Dart Frogs
> This goes on and yet we still have people arguing that they don't care about ethics. Well this is what that lack of ethics leads to. Enjoy your hybrids.
> The phone number is on the ad. What if a bunch of hobbyists called and voiced their displeasure at the fact he's selling hybrids.


I'm emailing my displeasure.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

the thing is if you are new to the hobby they look neat and are temped to buy. if you have been in the hobby for a bit they look neat but you won't buy because of thier mix. this place is a store. you are able to buy a cheap frog raise the price and make money. like i said before the new person to the hobby would probably buy these. you have to remember they are saying that they are hybrids. so no trying to pull the wool over your eyes.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Bumping this thread to make everyone aware that Exotic Pets has again placed another ad for these hybrids.
> kingsnake.com Classifieds: Agreja Dart Frogs
> This goes on and yet we still have people arguing that they don't care about ethics. Well this is what that lack of ethics leads to. Enjoy your hybrids.
> The phone number is on the ad. What if a bunch of hobbyists called and voiced their displeasure at the fact he's selling hybrids.


I'm not trying to start any controversy here. I understand the base of all your arguments but didn't you threaten to kick someone's a** for calling your number you had posted on your ad? I'm not defending him or what he's doing but IMO as long as he is clearly labeling them as hybrids I'd leave well enough alone.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

RobR said:


> I'm not trying to start any controversy here. I understand the base of all your arguments but didn't you threaten to kick someone's a** for calling your number you had posted on your ad? I'm not defending him or what he's doing but IMO as long as he is clearly labeling them as hybrids I'd leave well enough alone.


I in no way ever threatened anyone with any physical harm. What I did say was to cease and desist calling me or I'll pursue it as electronic harassment. 
Perhaps you're right. What he's doing is perfectly legal, just wrong. It's no better to sell hybrids than it is to create them. People are either going to buy them or not buy them. My opinion isn't going to sway them one way or the other. But if they view hybrids as acceptable, what else is acceptable?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Tinctoc said:


> I'm emailing my displeasure.


I'd snail mail my displeasure but it won't fit in the envelope.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

If it means that much to you (I understand if it does) offer to buy him out. Trade him a breeding pair of something legit and keep the hybrids out of circulation. I'd imagine he's nothing more than a business man and certainly not out to do harm to the hobby.


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## dtfleming (Dec 27, 2010)

RobR said:


> If it means that much to you (I understand if it does) offer to buy him out. Trade him a breeding pair of something legit and keep the hybrids out of circulation. I'd imagine he's nothing more than a business man and certainly not out to do harm to the hobby.


RobR it has been brought to his attention on another forum already. He is just out to make a buck off of them. The problem is as stated already that new people will buy them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

RobR said:


> I'm not trying to start any controversy here. I understand the base of all your arguments but didn't you threaten to kick someone's a** for calling your number you had posted on your ad? I'm not defending him or what he's doing but IMO as long as he is clearly labeling them as hybrids I'd leave well enough alone.


Rob, you don't know the whole story. The person that accused Rusty of this, was in fact threatening Rusty (Jon), and lying about it. The person in question has been banned from DendroBoard for multiple reasons, while Jon is still here. Our moderators have weighed the evidence and made a decision. I would assume they have good reasons for their decision.


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Here's the reply I just got in email: 
_"Not producing, just selling them. I assume you don't approve? "_


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Rob, you don't know the whole story. The person that accused Rusty of this, was in fact threatening Rusty (Jon), and lying about it. The person in question has been banned from DendroBoard for multiple reasons, while Jon is still here. Our moderators have weighed the evidence and made a decision. I would assume they have good reasons for their decision.


I'm somewhat familiar with that thread and am 110% with Rusty. That member along with another were there to push buttons as opposed to learn anything. I was only trying to point out the effectiveness of calling a number posted for an ad. I don't think your going to win him over with anything other than what he's after. Potential profit.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Bumping this thread to make everyone aware that Exotic Pets has again placed another ad for these hybrids.
> kingsnake.com Classifieds: Agreja Dart Frogs
> This goes on and yet we still have people arguing that they don't care about ethics. Well this is what that lack of ethics leads to. Enjoy your hybrids.
> The phone number is on the ad. What if a bunch of hobbyists called and voiced their displeasure at the fact he's selling hybrids.


Jon,

I don't think that ad has been down for more than a few days since the original posting. It's been there most of the time I've checked the classifieds over there. So either they aren't selling or he has been getting more from the person producing them. 

Some comments

Ed


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

....lord what's next azureus without spots....


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

RobR said:


> I'm not trying to start any controversy here. I understand the base of all your arguments but didn't you threaten to kick someone's a** for calling your number you had posted on your ad? I'm not defending him or what he's doing but IMO as long as he is clearly labeling them as hybrids I'd leave well enough alone.


Roflmao..nice. If he's advertising them as an obvious hybrid and some dummy wants to buy them, more power to him. It's the person buying them that's going to get nowhere.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

JaredJ said:


> Roflmao..nice. If he's advertising them as an obvious hybrid and some dummy wants to buy them, more power to him. It's the person buying them that's going to get nowhere.


The fact that you enjoy my post makes me really regret having said that. I respect Rusty and his efforts and I'll leave it at that........


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

I just got a lengthy email from him and he stated that he is/does not produce these and that they were sold to him by someone else and feels obligated to sell them as to not suffer a loss. He also stated that he will not be selling any more hybrids/cross-outs in the future due to expressed concern from myself and several others.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Tinctoc said:


> I just got a lengthy email from him and he stated that he is/does not produce these and that they were sold to him by someone else and feels obligated to sell them as to not suffer a loss. He also stated that he will not be selling any more hybrids/cross-outs in the future due to expressed concern from myself and several others.


Can I get a hallelujah?

What I don't understand is if he doesn't buy them from the person creating a hybrid, he won't be under any obligation to sell them as to not suffer a loss.


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## d.crockett (May 27, 2009)

Not sure if it has been brought up before but I saw this posting the other day while browsing.

"Dyeing Intergrade Dart Frog"

EBV Price List - Amphibian & Other Vertebrates Price List

Listed as a "fertile intergrade" doesn't leave much to the imagination as to what that implies. 

Bummer....


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

d. crockett, thanks for finding that new post and bringing it to everyones attention. 

To Rob and everyone else. I'm not perfect. Far from it. I'm sorry if I come off as egotistical or sanctimonious. Because I'm not. I have soooo much more to learn about these frogs, and I'm not the perfect keeper. I do have a passion for them though. I will not ever apologize for that. I don't think I'm holier than though or a better keeper than anyone else, far from it. 
I just care...a lot. Not only about my frogs, but about your frogs too, and frogs in the wild as well. I just want whats best for them and for the current keepers and for future keepers to come. My heart is truly in the right place. There are few things that matter more to me than my frogs. I guess that may be a sad editorial piece on today's society. But it's true. By and large people suck, and frogs don't. I don't mean by any means to even think that I'm the voice of reason and ethics within the hobby. But I know I do present a unique point of view. 
Anyway take this for what it's worth and always look at every opinion equally and use your intelligence and common sense and form your own opinion (just make sure it's the same as mine ) lol


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Rusty is the kind of man who would actually do something if he saw a woman getting mugged, instead of standing there and taking pictures with his phone.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

jacobi said:


> instead of standing there and taking pictures with his phone.


LOL, someone would actually do that? Wow, I would think anyone would help out a woman being mugged. I hope our society hasn't come to that.


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## edwardsatc (Feb 17, 2004)

Tinctoc said:


> I just got a lengthy email from him and he stated that he is/does not produce these and that they were sold to him by someone else and feels obligated to sell them as to not suffer a loss. He also stated that he will not be selling any more hybrids/cross-outs in the future due to expressed concern from myself and several others.


 ... they're back up on Kingsnake.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

edwardsatc said:


> ... they're back up on Kingsnake.


I don't think they were ever taken down... I've seen them pretty much every time I've checked over there.. I think they aren't selling..... 

Ed


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