# Paludarium is doomed. Spider Mites :( :( :(



## flyingSquirrel

Well guys, it's bad news. My relatively new paludarium setup has spider mites.  The mites are reddish brown, 1/32", look identical to photos of such mites, and there are small webs in a few areas. I can tell the webs are not mycelium, as they are much finer, identical to a spider's irregular web where the silk is strung across at elevated angles, not in contact with the substrate. They have recently appeared in greater numbers (along with several other insect species).

I am devastated because I spent so much time, energy, and money on this build, only to have it infested with such a destructive insect. Additional bad news is that I do not have any type of animal which could feed on and help reduce the numbers of the mites. The good news is, I don't have any animals in the tank, so * maybe * that gives me some options for treatment? I doubt any treatment will work though, due to the significant amount of very deep hiding areas in the wood, plants, substrate, background, etc. I am fairly certain it's all doomed.

Is there anything I can do, any hope at all?

ps. Yes, I did search the forum for other posts. I'd like to get fresh advice, especially since my build is different than a PDF viv, and has no animals currently.


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## flyingSquirrel

In addition there are a few other species / types of insects.
There appears to be another 1 or 2 types of mites, some are lighter in color..perhaps a tan color. Also there are longer and thinner, dark insects..look like thrips or something. All these things are so darn small, it's hard to spot them. But they are there sure enough, crawling around, nesting, doing their thing. Arg!


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## frogparty

What kind of Viv is this? Spider mites hate humidity


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## hydrophyte

You CAN totally kill off spider mites if you keep the enclosure warm and treat for them several times in succession so that you get them as new ones hatch from the eggs.

You can try a CO2 bomb.

A product that I have used on houseplants that works very well to kill spider mires is Avid. It is extremely toxic and you have to be careful handling it, but supposedly it's naturally derived and will totally break down after a period of time. Thrips are very hard to kill off, but Avid will take care of them. 

Like frogparty said spider mites also dislike humidity. It won't kill 'em but if you can mist so that all of the foliage gets wet top-and-bottom a couple times a day it will stop them from reproducing.

Another bug killer I have used against them is Azamax. This one is less toxic and neem oil derived, but if you treat severl times carefully you can also kill off the mites.


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## flyingSquirrel

frogparty said:


> What kind of Viv is this? Spider mites hate humidity


It's a paludarium ... not sure of the humidity level but much less humid than a pdf viv. Partially open top with forced ventilation. No condensation is present on the glass, ever. There are dry areas on some of the wood and around plants, background, etc.


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## flyingSquirrel

hydrophyte said:


> You CAN totally kill off spider mites if you keep the enclosure warm and treat for them several times in succession so that you get them as new ones hatch from the eggs.
> 
> You can try a CO2 bomb.
> 
> A product that I have used on houseplants that works very well to kill spider mires is Avid. It is extremely toxic and you have to be careful handling it, but supposedly it's naturally derived and will totally break down after a period of time. Thrips are very hard to kill off, but Avid will take care of them.
> 
> Like frogparty said spider mites also dislike humidity. It won't kill 'em but if you can mist so that all of the foliage gets wet top-and-bottom a couple times a day it will stop them from reproducing.
> 
> Another bug killer I have used against them is Azamax. This one is less toxic and neem oil derived, but if you treat severl times carefully you can also kill off the mites.


Thanks for this specific info. I'll look into those products. Hopefully the chemicals will eventually break down as you mentioned, and get out of the soil and wood. I'll have to change the water, a lot, too (in the paludarium bottom)

You say to keep it warm...what temp?


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## hydrophyte

I don't know.....up in the high 70s is probably warm enough.

It's important to keep the eggs hatching because the eggs are very difficult to kill. I have had plants dunked underwater for 72 hours and the spider mite eggs were still alive after that treatment. Azamax kills the adult mites, but not the eggs.


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## Ed

As an alternative, there are predatory mites that are very effective in controlling spider mites, search spider mite biocontrol for a wide number of sources for them. This way there isn't any concern about residues or safety and if you have small frogs, you can feed the mites to them... 

Ed


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## Pumilo

Sounds like a job for an army of trained thumbnails!


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## flyingSquirrel

Ed said:


> As an alternative, there are predatory mites that are very effective in controlling spider mites, search spider mite biocontrol for a wide number of sources for them. This way there isn't any concern about residues or safety and if you have small frogs, you can feed the mites to them...
> 
> Ed


Thanks Ed, that's very interesting and helpful. I'll check around but I am wondering if I can find those mites in a very small quantity (instead of 1000). Also it creeps me out that they might be crawling out of the tank and around my room. My tank isn't completely sealed, it's open top.

Thinking about the fact that I saw what appeared to be several different types of mites in my tank, I am wondering if perhaps one of them is a mite predator. I'm curious enough (and crazy enough) that I almost might try to capture several of these different bugs and put them together in a small container, just to see what happens. That's probably insane and not likely to be an easy experiment.


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## flyingSquirrel

Pumilo said:


> Sounds like a job for an army of trained thumbnails!


Wouldn't I love that!  I've thought about jumping into the pdf scene here and there...very tempting, especially now. Not sure though if I have the time, money, or means to care for them. Also this build in particular would be quite unsuitable for frogs.


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## Pumilo

Yeah, I gathered that, but I couldn't resist the image on an army of thumbnails wearing their little berets!


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## EvilLost

I didn't read through to see if anybody has mentioned this yet, but you could do a CO2 bomb ?



REMOVE all your animals, put in 2-3 cups with chunks of dry ice in them, and SEAL off the tank. Let the dry ice evaporate and co2 should kill anything in there. (I believe it is heavier so it should sink to the bottom nicely)


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## Lifeguard

Co2 is a heavier gas and will settle in low areas. Place some dry ice in a container of some sort and set it into the tank. It will kill anything that can't survive in a pure co2 environment. Any live plants will grow even better. I have tried this many times and have had much success. Plus dry ice is cheap.


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## epiphytes etc.

I wouldn't put dry ice in there. It's likely to damage or even kill your plants from freezing.


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## motydesign

well if he has spider mites, then it wont be long before they kill the plants 
however i think what you mean is use another option rather than putting the ice directly in the viv.


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## BethInAK

could you enclose the container with a plastic sheet and keep it warm and wet for a couple of weeks until the spider mites go nitey nite?


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## Ed

If the enclosure has a screen top, he could simply place the dry ice into a container with some warm water and let the evolved CO2 drain down into the tank and then cover the tank as much as possible to get the CO2 levels high enough to kill the unwanted bugs. 

Ed


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## epiphytes etc.

Do you have animals in there? Neem oil might just do the trick.


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## flyingSquirrel

Ed said:


> If the enclosure has a screen top, he could simply place the dry ice into a container with some warm water and let the evolved CO2 drain down into the tank and then cover the tank as much as possible to get the CO2 levels high enough to kill the unwanted bugs.
> 
> Ed


Ed, this sounds like a really good idea. I've never used dry ice. Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer these questions:

1. What type of container would I want to put the dry ice in? Plastic? Metal?
2. How much dry ice and water would you imagine I'd need to produce enough gas to 'bomb' a 29 gallon (half full) tank?
3. Does the gas have to fill the entire tank, all the way to the top? Will I be able to see the gas, like a fog?
4. What temp would I want the water to be, and do I put the ice in first, then pour the water in? I thought dry ice was really cold, and if you put warm water on it, it seems dangerous like it would explode or something
5. Will the gas 'rise' out of the container and over the edge as it's produced, before 'dropping' into the tank?
6. Will the gas be cold? Will it damage my plants?
7. How long should I let the gas stay in the tank?
8. After the above period of time, how do I ventilate / disperse the gas from the tank in a safe manner?
9. What would I cover the tank with? Could I seal it with plastic wrap?
10. Will I want to run the light fixture as usual?
11. I assume safety goggles and heavy gloves for handling the dry ice. Any other tips or safety measures for the process? How do I avoid inhaling the gas in dangerous quantities? Just watch where it goes and stay clear of it?

I don't have a screen top, but what do you think about this idea: After removing the glass top, I could put 3 or 4 wood beams across the tank rim, put the container on that, let the gas drain in, remove the beams and container, then seal the tank...

Thanks for all your help!


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## ChrisK

Pumilo said:


> Sounds like a job for an army of trained thumbnails!


Yeah really, or better yet throw some pumilio in there and watch the frenzy


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## flyingSquirrel

Can anyone please help me with how to do the procedure that Ed mentioned? Or can someone please link me to somewhere that might have instructions on it?

1. What type of container would I want to put the dry ice in? Plastic? Metal?
2. How much dry ice and water would you imagine I'd need to produce enough gas to 'bomb' a 29 gallon (half full) tank?
3. Does the gas have to fill the entire tank, all the way to the top? Will I be able to see the gas, like a fog?
4. What temp would I want the water to be, and do I put the ice in first, then pour the water in? I thought dry ice was really cold, and if you put warm water on it, it seems dangerous like it would explode or something
5. Will the gas 'rise' out of the container and over the edge as it's produced, before 'dropping' into the tank?
6. Will the gas be cold? Will it damage my plants?
7. How long should I let the gas stay in the tank?
8. After the above period of time, how do I ventilate / disperse the gas from the tank in a safe manner?
9. What would I cover the tank with? Could I seal it with plastic wrap?
10. Will I want to run the light fixture as usual?
11. I assume safety goggles and heavy gloves for handling the dry ice. Any other tips or safety measures for the process? How do I avoid inhaling the gas in dangerous quantities? Just watch where it goes and stay clear of it?

I don't have a screen top, but what do you think about this idea: After removing the glass top, I could put 3 or 4 wood beams across the tank rim, put the container on that, let the gas drain in, remove the beams and container, then seal the tank...

Thanks for all your help!


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## Pumilo

The last word on CO2 generators. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/56812-building-using-co2-generator.html

And in case you decide to hire my army of mercenary thumbnails. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/77193-white-spots-my-wood-2.html#post683176


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## Jon Mason

Dry Ice and water to create CO2. Great for the plants and it will kill the mites. you will need to repeat the process once or twice to kill off any mites that may hatch out. Good luck.


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## bobrez

I need some help too  just found some webs and chewed up plants  I would like to try spider mite biocontrol, but in my search couldnt find any good leads. I would probably try 2 different sp. of predmite maybe a quick fixer and a longer term killer. I need a link of a dealer someone has used and recomends, prefered east coast. Thanks peeps.

Edit would ladybugs work? Think I can get them when it warms a little.


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## Blue_Pumilio

Perhaps an insect growth regulator could work? Many of these break down after a few weeks when exposed to light. Another option would be Pyrethrum, which breaks down after several weeks.


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## EvilLost

Answers underlined below 



flyingSquirrel said:


> Can anyone please help me with how to do the procedure that Ed mentioned? Or can someone please link me to somewhere that might have instructions on it?
> 
> 1. What type of container would I want to put the dry ice in? Plastic? Metal?
> 
> Anything that can take the temperature will work fine....you can just use a small pot. I'd avoid using thin glass since it will be cold as it sublimes.
> 
> 2. How much dry ice and water would you imagine I'd need to produce enough gas to 'bomb' a 29 gallon (half full) tank?
> 
> Honestly, I have no clue how much but since its so cheap I don't see any negatives of just buying more dry ice than you need for sure. You do not need very much water.
> 
> 3. Does the gas have to fill the entire tank, all the way to the top? Will I be able to see the gas, like a fog?
> 
> You'll see it as it sublimes, but it won't be visible once it has fully formed into a gas. Yes, it should cover the entire tank (you want to cover the top of the tank at first). The idea here is that the gas takes over the tank and kills off all the things that need air to breathe (your plants will be fine and will NOT freeze like another poster said....if you put dry ice directly on the plants, it will freeze of course but when it sublimes it is not that cold)
> 
> 4. What temp would I want the water to be, and do I put the ice in first, then pour the water in? I thought dry ice was really cold, and if you put warm water on it, it seems dangerous like it would explode or something
> 
> Depending on your temps, you can even put the dry ice in the container and just wait it out...the water is just an accelerant. Personally I'd just use a small amount of moderate temperature tap water. You will see an increase in "smoke" from sublimation as you add water so there is a visual indicator.
> 
> 5. Will the gas 'rise' out of the container and over the edge as it's produced, before 'dropping' into the tank?
> 
> The gas is HEAVIER than air and will fall immediately. You will need to manually vent out your tank afterwards (using a fan or something)
> 
> 6. Will the gas be cold? Will it damage my plants?
> 
> The dry ice itself will be cold, but when it sublimes the temperature should be fine and not hurt your plants.
> 
> 7. How long should I let the gas stay in the tank?
> 
> Not entirely sure on this one....but I don't believe it would hurt to keep it longer than you need. If you can visually see the bugs through the glass, then once you are certain there is NO more bug movement (all dead bodies) then its probably good.
> 
> 8. After the above period of time, how do I ventilate / disperse the gas from the tank in a safe manner?
> 
> I would just point a fan on low power at an angle into the tank to.
> 
> 9. What would I cover the tank with? Could I seal it with plastic wrap?
> 
> Plastic wrap works great yep, but if your glass top already seals it then that works fine too
> 
> 10. Will I want to run the light fixture as usual?
> 
> Doesn't matter, I leave it on so you can see the dead bugs easier.
> 
> 11. I assume safety goggles and heavy gloves for handling the dry ice. Any other tips or safety measures for the process? How do I avoid inhaling the gas in dangerous quantities? Just watch where it goes and stay clear of it?
> 
> Dry ice isn't TOO dangerous (it is still dangerous!). You can touch it with your bare hand for a few seconds before you start to burn; you will want gloves, but I would not worry too much about goggles and ventilation.
> 
> I don't have a screen top, but what do you think about this idea: After removing the glass top, I could put 3 or 4 wood beams across the tank rim, put the container on that, let the gas drain in, remove the beams and container, then seal the tank...
> 
> I'm confused why you would go through all this work? Just put the dry ice cubes into a small container, and place the container INSIDE the tank (like literally on the ground area) and just seal off the top and wait a good while...
> Thanks for all your help!


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## Roadkillstewie

1: I think either will work, though you'd want thick plastic...you could use a styrofoam cooler.

Whatever comes from the temp, water makes it go faster...not exactly required, hotter the water the more...volatile the reaction.
Will it 'flow' over, this depends on how much water/ice size of container etc.
Fog is kinda of like what you get out of a 'cool' humidifier.


Haven't ever used it for what's being discussed here, but I've 'played' with it
and used it at times in coolers post hurricane etc.

You could, get a styro cooler, with a lid...cut a hole, run a hose into it...run the other end into the viv... or just put a pot etc into the viv with the ice and add some water.


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## Ed

bobrez said:


> I need some help too  just found some webs and chewed up plants  I would like to try spider mite biocontrol, but in my search couldnt find any good leads. I would probably try 2 different sp. of predmite maybe a quick fixer and a longer term killer. I need a link of a dealer someone has used and recomends, prefered east coast. Thanks peeps.
> 
> Edit would ladybugs work? Think I can get them when it warms a little.


Biocontrol is typically through the use of predatory mites.. as an example see SPIDER MITE PREDATORS FACT SHEET & Release Instructions. This is not suggesting them as a source. There are many vendors of predatory mites that can send them to you. 

I should note, that if your tank is in the humidity range typical for dendrobatid enclosures, it isn't the ideal conditions for spider mites since they prefer drier conditions. You should pull some damaged leaves and check them with a magnifying glass (or your eyes if they are good enough (mine aren't anymore) to confirm that it is spider mites and not say some small spiders and some other leaf chewer like slugs.... 

Ed


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