# Albino Darts...



## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Hey all,
I was reading about the 'albino' alanis tinc a while back and was wondering how common pigment mutations are in Dendrobates...I just looked at a group of tadpoles from my patricia breeders and noticed that one is completely colorless. Bag legs have just developed in it and it seems normal...is this how the alanis developed?
Thanks,
Ben


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Albino Darts*

It's interesting to see these color mutations (be they albino, amelanistic or whatever) being produced in the hobby. It seems as if they are viable froglets and contrary to what I would have thought are very attractive. I used to get some yellow Fantasticius froglets that were albino but after morphing they always died. Pat Nabors used to get albino Auratus and after morphing they would die as well, both of these cases were examples of siblings bred to one another. I wonder if these mutations (for lack of a better word) are a result of siblings being bred and does that have anything to do with them being produced. It would be interesting to hear from those producing these color variants what the lineage of the parents are and are they the product of siblings.
Personally I think they are a great addition to the hobby. Will we be seeing "Tangerine/Creamsycle Double Het for Albanism Phase" being posted in the for sale section soon.
Good luck with your Patricia, hopefull you too will be posting photos of something new.


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

*Re: Albino Darts*



markpulawski said:


> Personally I think they are a great addition to the hobby. Will we be seeing "Tangerine/Creamsycle Double Het for Albanism Phase" being posted in the for sale section soon.
> Good luck with your Patricia, hopefull you too will be posting photos of something new.


In my opinion, I hope we never see that. Just like with leopard geckos, way too confusing, blood lines mixed up, inbreeding, etc. and you don't really see that many true normals any more.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2004)

I think he was joking, but i definately agree with you Derek.


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

Mark,
The reason, I believe, that we see more frequent pigment mutations in sibling crosses is because these mutations are *generally* recessive and siblings, being 50% related are more likely to pass these genes than outbred pairs. The reason they probably die shortly after morphing is there were probably several other mutations that were expressed along w/ the pigment mutation for the same reason as above. As for mine, I am not sure if they are sibs or not, I bought froma local who did not know their source so I do not know


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2004)

*d*

Why would they die after morphing? I havent fully raised any yet, but it seems like by that time they are past the difficult stage. Deformed lungs?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Albino Frogs*

I was joking about the ad however I believe the reason my offspring were not viable was they did not show any interest/ability to feed. Maybe the comment of other (negative) traits showing up with the color mutation is valid. My only other guess is that they were true albinos and that they could not see well enough to feed.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2004)

Ben_C said:


> ...I just looked at a group of tadpoles from my patricia breeders and noticed that one is completely colorless. Bag legs have just developed in it and it seems normal...is this how the alanis developed?
> Thanks,
> Ben


The inferalanis tads are about half dark when they first hatch. The dark does not go away as they age, but it does not grow with them either. Eventually it is only on their tail, and of course, the tail goes away. The legs have always been clear so far and so no sign of getting any color even as the rest of the frog gets color. 



> Personally I think they are a great addition to the hobby. Will we be seeing "Tangerine/Creamsycle Double Het for Albanism Phase" being posted in the for sale section soon.


I know you're probably joking, but for anyone who's wondering, I am not going to do anything like that with these or any other darts. In my opinion there is nothing we could do to them to make them any more beautiful than nature has already made them. Although I will continue raising up these "albinos" since everyone wants one! 



> It would be interesting to hear from those producing these color variants what the lineage of the parents are and are they the product of siblings.


Yes, they are siblings, and they are f1 from wildcaught parents. Mine and the ones from Quality Captives are related to each other also


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2004)

Ok now you guys got me thinking....what's everyone's opinion on these albinos (or whatever we end up calling them)? I mean, as far as them being a man-made morph of dart frog? They happened naturally of course, I definately had nothing to do with it, but they would not survive in the wild if they had been born there, and now I am producing them and everyone wants them, so I am going to keep producing them. Does that mean I am making a new morph? I really don't want to be the one to start dart frogs on the down-ward decline of corn snakes and leopard geckos! But this is exactly how the many many morphs of those two herps started...with an albino specimen...right? And when my pair of inferalanis is gone, it was suggested in a post somewhere that if the gene that caused this is double recessive, the only way I will be able to get more albinos is to cross two albinos....so that would make it seem even more like a new morph! I definately don't want any fighting going on here, but what do you guys think?

Becky


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Well...if people want to buy them...and they are healthy...you might as well sell them. As far as inbreeding the brothers and sisters to maintain this abnormality, I don't think I would do that, not that I'm saying that what I would do is necessarily what everyone should do. I would say as long as anyone who buys them understands what they are, It would be O.K. to sell them...it's not as though they are hybrids or anything, although to do so may very well be opening the door for designer frogs.

I would also like to think that most of the people in this hobby would keep conservation in mind and sell and buy "special frogs" as what they are, and I can't imagine a day when regular Inferalanis, which are gorgeous anyway, become lost because "everyone" wants the "albinos".

You stated that these probably would not survive in the wild, are they especially fragile? If so you may want to consider you're reputation in the matter. For example, when you're name comes up, would you rather be known as the lady that sells weird frogs that die easy (if that were the case) or be less known, but known to sell healthy frogs?


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Albino Darts*

I'm sorry I made the joke now. You did not create a new color variant, mother nature did. I would definately continue producing these frogs if I were you, they are very nice looking and if there is demand try and fill it. If you were producing a hybrid I am sure no one would want them, we have already seen that happen. Most hobbyist buy a group of frogs from a breeder, grow them out and hope to start producing their own. Getting unrelated animals would be preferrable(in my opinion) but not very realistic from a financial or logistical perspecctive especially when you acquire F1's.
You should feel good about creating something new that's natural, it gives us all something positive to talk about. Good luck with raising them out, I would guess that the adult version of these animals will be nicer looking than the juveniles you currently have.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

> They happened naturally of course,... but they would not survive in the wild if they had been born there...


If I could add my 2 cents,

I would be very careful to make the connection... Just because most have not seen a wild albino, it does not mean that they will not survive... 

Some are saying this based on their preferences and past experience with other reptile hobbies. 

The two may be connected, may be not. There have never been scientific tests done on predators preferences, UV tolerances, poison production, etc.. on them.

If someone were to release bunch of albinos in an area, would they then disapear or grow in population?

What is the real reason that wild albinos are rare? is it because they will got eaten or culled by other factors or chance of occuring is very slim (the 2 frogs carrying gene never meet)? 

There are a lot of things people don't know about dart frogs... and making an asumption based on preferences can limit our understanding about the creature.


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## Guest (Nov 30, 2004)

Dancing frogs said:


> You stated that these probably would not survive in the wild, are they especially fragile? If so you may want to consider you're reputation in the matter. For example, when you're name comes up, would you rather be known as the lady that sells weird frogs that die easy (if that were the case) or be less known, but known to sell healthy frogs?


I am not planning on selling them until they are old enough to breed anyway, because I need to find out if they are sensitive to light, if they can breed at all, and if they can make it to that age! Many people have said they will buy one anyway, even if there is no guarantee it will live and they will keep that in mind. I don't particularly like that idea, but then I might not have room for all these guys if I'm going to wait that long to sell them...if all the tads that I have live, I will have 12, and the pair is still laying pretty big clutches at least every 2 weeks.



> I would be very careful to make the connection... Just because people have not seen a wild albino, it does not mean that they will not survive...
> 
> The two may be connected, may be not. There have never been scientific tests done on predators preferences, UV tolerances, poison production, etc.. on them.


I suppose, and they could be out there, but the chances of them continuing to flourish would be small. If the parents of my frogs bred somewhere in the wild before they were caught (which is unlikely, they probably didn't even know each other LOL), then those babies would have to find each other again to breed, which is even more unlikely.

We will probably never know if they can produce poison, since we don't even know how to make normals produce poison. 

As for being sensitive to light, I haven't figured out their eyes. They are not red, but they are not normal either. It looks like they are black but with a clear pupil. I'd think that would cause a problem, but then again, maybe they'd be too deep in the forest to get much light.


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

The link below shows an albino tricolor and lugubris.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/9063/fotos.html


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2004)

That's cool Kevin, thanks  The tricolor looks like it's true albino, it has red eyes from what I can see. But the lugubris looks more like mine (except for the color on it's legs)....darker eye, but clear center.


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## bjdwa (Nov 26, 2004)

hey khoff,

Great link. The coolest picture on the link is the group of histos. Looks like an Art Wolfe shot. Whose frogs are these and who took these pictures, they're awesome!!

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/9063/fotos.html[/quote]


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Naturally rare mutations should remain just as rare in the hobby. Selective breeding for albinism and other mutants is a recipe for disaster in the hobby unless you want the dart frog hobby to turn into a money-grubbing fest of designer bred animals where you can't find wild looking frogs anymore. Just look around at other herp hobbies and you will see the future of this one.


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

Here is another link to a different albino tricolor.

http://www2a.biglobe.ne.jp/~wild-sky/vi ... on0311.htm

FYI, these links I'm posting are old pictures. Some from before I was in the hobby. So don't think all these albino darts are suddenly exploding into the market.


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Naturally rare mutations should remain just as rare in the hobby. Selective breeding for albinism and other mutants is a recipe for disaster in the hobby unless you want the dart frog hobby to turn into a money-grubbing fest of designer bred animals where you can't find wild looking frogs anymore. Just look around at other herp hobbies and you will see the future of this one.


You are definately entitled to your opinion, and that is a very good point, but really, if this was happening to you, you would not sell the babies? I mean, the parents are only just over a year, they lay every week, I refuse to kill the babies, and there's no way I'd be able to keep that many. I think as long as there are so many people who so strongly believe in the importance of keeping these frogs in their natural state, there shouldn't be a problem. So maybe someone will try to sell hybrids, but will any of us buy them? I haven't met anyone yet who would. It wouldn't be worth it to the person. I am not trying to put down what you said or anything, this is just the way I see it. I think the dart hobby is different than any other....that's why I like it, and I'm sure that's why everyone else is here. Just as an example, lets look at classic cars....there are clubs out there for custom cars that are way different than the original...then there are clubs who pride themselves in having cars that are as original as it is humanly possible to make them. I think we are the second example...and even if someone decides to "customize" frogs, we will still be around, and even more proud of what we have than them.

Becky


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Albino Darts*

I would say there is about a zero chance that designer dart frogs would ever come about. this hobby has been around a long time and natural mutations are a scarce as hens teeth let alone anyone trying to create something. The dart frog community more than any I have ever seen has absolutley no tolerance for man made color morphs and has gone to great lengths to ID and rid itself of those that have been produced. Producing and selling albinos or amel animals as have been represented in this forum should have a place in this hobby.
Anyone producing these animals should not think twice about whether they should or should not, this is a naturally occurring variant and as far as I'm concerned a welcome addition to what is being produced in the US. If you don't like them, don't buy them (when they become available).


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## Guest (Dec 7, 2004)

WiFrogger34 said:


> but they would not survive in the wild if they had been born there, and now I am producing them and everyone wants them, so I am going to keep producing them.


Nothing could be further from the truth. The reason that albinos do not normally survive in the wild, is because the normal pigmentation is meant as a form of camoflauge, in some way shape or form. Albinos of these types of animals of course are not going to survive, because they are seen, and thus easy targets.

This is not the case with poison frogs. They have developed to be SEEN, and thusly, an albino being seen in a type of animal that is not exactly looking to hide, is not in danger here. If anything, the locals have learned that the brighter the colors, the more reason to avoid it. (Not to mention that the recent discoveries of albino populations of poison frogs adds water to this glass.) 

Go on producing them Becky; They would survive in the wild fine I think, and will certainly do fine here in our tanks.

remember, you are on this earth to please YOU, not the masses. I have noticed that Dendroboard is very cliqueish (is that a word??) and trying to please each different group that holds each different thought process is going to drive you crazy - I think they are absolutely gorgeous, and cannot wait until you have some available!!!


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Mark Johnson said:


> I think they are absolutely gorgeous, and cannot wait until you have some available!!!


Ditto! I would buy some also!

-Shelley


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I don't know if that second link is of an actual albino tricolor..... that frog looks very much like a couple santa isabels I've seen... bubblegum pink in color because their diet wasn't supplimented. I've had frogs from parents that looked like that.... they grew up to be bright red SAs since I use peprika enhanced FF media for tricolors. Traditionally an albino would not be lacking reds as well, but that could just be messed up terms.

My second thing is comparing the PDFs to leopard geckos. While designer ball pythons may be mostly due to 10+ genetic variations, leopard geckos suffered with selective breeding for color (originally snow and high yellow which advanced to golden yellow which advanced to tangerine, all the while little to no spotting also selectively bred) well before the first albino popped on the scene. Now there are ~4 lines of albino, a xanthic, genetic hypo/carrottail (came in with the same animals - CT leos are actually genetically hypo/super hypo/baldy), genetic stripe all crossed with selectively bred snows, pastels, tangs, and hypos/super hypos. Talk about confusion, half the people breeding them don't know what they are breeding. I bred these guys for a while, I'd hate to see darts go that way.

Breeding albinos and/or hets to produce more albinos is similar in idea to breeding that gecko with this gecko because they are more yellow that wild types. It may be the first step towards designer frogs. Its a lot like breeding few spot/no spot azureus.... from what I understand the population shows a lot of this variation (i've seen sky blue/small spot animals in the same clutch with ones that almost look like new rivers) but is so small these are not natural lines.... they are selectively bred to keep producing this trait.

Designer frogs are being produced, but are still looked down on by the majority so they haven't taken off, but may very well in the future. Look at the interest these albinos have caused. With a lot of newbies coming over from the reptile hobby, these may be seem as cool and the norm.


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