# Giant Orange/Regina Comparison



## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I use Patrick Nabors definition when referring to my Giant Orange and Regina. This can be pretty confusing when talking to someone who uses Sean Stewart's definition, which is the exact opposite. There has been a lot of debate as to whether these are two seperate morphs, or simply line bred for particular traits. I have my opinion. You can make yours.

Giant Orange 



































Regina


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

The exact reason I dont even mess with tinc's.Ill leave that to the pro's.


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## InnoEcto (Jun 28, 2009)

Great post. 
I love the blue on those G.O.s!
We definitely agree with you, and define our Reginas by Patrick's definition. 
With all due respect to Sean, it just isn't really clear why he decided to flip flop the names all of a sudden. The only reason that makes sense, is that he does so much importation from Europe. If the Europeans call them one thing, and he imports them as such, why change their names? But that doesn't mean that we are going to start calling our Panguana lamasi "Panguana imitators".


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

The way Sean Stewart defines it is how they are defined in EU, what we call Giant orange they call Reginas and vise versa.

Great looking frogs!!


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Oct 13, 2008)

He has a European frog magazine that list them that way, but this make these frogs extremely confusing. I also use Patricks definition!

Alpha Pro Breeders



InnoEcto said:


> Great post.
> I love the blue on those G.O.s!
> We definitely agree with you, and define our Reginas by Patrick's definition.
> With all due respect to Sean, it just isn't really clear why he decided to flip flop the names all of a sudden. The only reason that makes sense, is that he does so much importation from Europe. If the Europeans call them one thing, and he imports them as such, why change their names? But that doesn't mean that we are going to start calling our Panguana lamasi "Panguana imitators".


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22089-re-giant-orange-vs-regina.html


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

I follow Understory Enterprises:

"Much confusion abounds with this frog. As the name Regina suggests the frogs originate from around Regina, French Guyana. The first imports to the US originated from Ruud Schouten of Rana, to John Uhern and were marketed by John Uhern as “Giant Orange”. Subsequent imports through different channels kept the name Regina. *According to R. Schouten who has seen these animals several times in the wild, these two frogs are one and the same, and the apparent differences between the Giant Orange and Regina lines may be seen side by side in the forest. "*


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

(Sorry for the OT...)

Chesney, is there no aggression amongst your Reginas when kept as a group? I've always heard it was an impossibility to keep tincs this way.

BTW...I've viewed your website many times...awesome!!!


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Since they are from the same locality, they are the same morph.By separating the various "bloodlines", we artificially created two different "morphs" that don't exist in nature.

Given that there is a strong argument offered that we continue to need wild-collected animals for "new blood" (an argument I strongly disagree with), it doesn't make sense to also want to keep the various Regina bloodlines separate. We need to try to diversify this morph and increase genetic variation.

To this end, I have put together a pair of these frogs, the male a Regina and the female a Giant Orange, both from Patrick's bloodlines. The offspring are highly variable (just like the wild population at the village of Regina). Rather than looking only for a specific "type" or "look" to a morph, I think keeping the frogs as diverse lloking as they do in the wild should also be a goal of the dart frog community.

Take care, Richard.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Thanks for taking this step Richard, I do believe the genetic diversity of these frogs has been dampened by the seperation that occured. I also believe in the info given to us by Understory regarding their origins, and I have heard this same story several times before over the years. Putting them together would be a great boost to genetic diversity since they have been kept seperate for so long, almost like fresh importations.
Nice frogs Lisa, it's great to see people do so well with 1 family of animals.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Doug, thanks for posting that link. I searched for it to add to my post, but was unable to sort through and find it. 

Jeremy, I have also heard the same through the years that these are one and the same. There is a good possibility. I just wanted to post pics showing the difference between the two whether they are line bred or not.

Wendy, the picture of the group is one that I grew out and have just recently separated into pairs. I grew out 12-14 (started in a 55g) and then split them when they grew to need more room. I watched until I could get a good idea on their sex and then split them up into probable pairs. They lasted around 8 or 9 months together before I started seeing aggression, which is not typical. I have had some that had to be separated as young as 3-4 months due to aggression. Thanks for the complement. I really need to update my site.

Richard, I knew you would chime in, being the GO/Regina guru. If memory serves me correctly we had this discussion a couple of years ago. I would be greatly interested in seeing some pics of the offspring from your GO/Regina pair (mot to open this up to cross breeding). Although I keep mine separate and will continue to do so, there is some variability with the amount of black on my Regina. On the other hand, my GO are pretty stable in producing consistent patterns and colors of a GO.

Guys, I did not start this thread to open up a can of worms. I simply wanted to show the differences between the two (whether one and the same or a variable between the same morph). Years ago I was even told by a big name breeder who sells them as two separate morphs to combine the two and sell them as Go/Regina which I refuse to do.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Lisa,

Sorry I forgot to add, "BEAUTIFUL FROGS"! I always like to see photos of well cared for, plump tinctorius (the folks that only keep the "wee" frogs have no idea how many cultures it takes to keep tincs this healthy!)

I also keep most of my GOs and Reginas in separate pairs, I just think making some careful, well-documented crosses could help add the "new blood" to the lines.

In the froglets I've produced so far, some of them look like GOs (with lots of blue on their legs and bellies) and some look like Reginas (with no blue). I'm digging the car out of the snow right now, but I'll add some photos of them tonight or tomorrow.

Sorry for the thread hi-jack. Thanks again for posting your pretty frog! Richard.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Mark, my only problem with this is the possibility of others thinking that it's ok to cross these two (even though they may very well be one and the same). 

Thanks Richard, I appreciate the complement. When I first started researching PDFs, it was the Regina morph that intrigued me most. It took me a couple of years, but I finally was able to get some. They have been a pain in my ass ever since. I seem to have problems with them soon after they begin breeding. I have spoken to seasoned froggers who also seem to have the same problem. Maybe the result of stress? Although I am against cross breeding, I would be interested to see the long term results of how your "experiment" could strengthen the bloodlines. BTW, I hope you got the car out!


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Lisa,

I agree about the Reginas. I have been trying to get my pairs of Sean Stewart's "GOs" to breed with no luck (though I have had some luck by breeding a Stewart "GO" with a Nabors Regina (same morph, you know!)) So I definitely think some of these bloodlines have become a bit inbred.

The GOXRegina cross (I'm thinking about calling them "Giant Reginas"!) come out of the water very big and grow quickly. They have been growing about 50% faster than my traditional GOs (Nabors line) and are extremely bold compared tp the GO froglets. One of the first four froglets is apparently a "runt", but this was the first clutch from the pair. BTW, this pair is EXTREMELY prolific, producing every 8 days or so and making nice healthy clutches with very few dudes (compared to my GO pairs).

I'll get some photos in the morning and post them here.

And, yes, had the car out and the Siberian Huskies to the dog park for the first times in days. Such fun in the snow!

Take care, Richard.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Here are some photos of the first froglets from the Giant OrangeXRegina cross (Nabors lines) from today. I have a number of froglets coming ootw now and should have a group ready for new homes in a few months. I'd like to find a few dedicated tinctorius breeders who would be willing to work with this "new" bloodline, as I think it really will help bring some good genetic diversity into the Regina locality morph.

Richard.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Didn't seem to take the other two photos. Hopefully here they are:


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

Wow, those really could be sold as Go and Regina because individually they do not look crossed. How do you think the hobby will accept it? This could cause a great uproar within the community, as well as cause some newbies to decide to cross other things. Any takers on being part of the breeding/research project of the new Giant Regina? Sending you a pm


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I don't think this would encourage future mixings, as it is pretty well documented that 'giant orange' and 'regina' are the same morph - there is compelling evidence that both 'morphs' are one and the same, both from lineage/import data, as well as in-situ observations. This is more along the lines of correcting a past mistake.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Great photos.

I personally think one of the best discussions on this topic can be found here:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/22089-re-giant-orange-vs-regina.html

And perhaps a better idea is to paste the 2 threads together rather then rehash the topic separately.

IMO we can't 'go back' to mixing them and expect a wild type frog.I believe Ed has discussed that those genetic arguments are flawed.

Anyway,
They will remain separate in my collection....

S


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

I guess it's just the unknown outcome and how it will affect the dart community that I fear Shawn. I can see both ends of the spectrum on these two particular frogs. On one end, it could strengthen the bloodlines, but on the other end it has the potential to encourage cross-breeding. I am interested in the outcome and sent Richard my number to discuss it in the future. As for myself, my GO and Regina will remain separated as two separate morphs.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I'm not worried about trying to develop a consensus for this projects on Dendroboard (this group couldn't agree on what day of the week it is!) I do think, though, that there are enough people who love tinctorius enough to want to make sure we aren't inbreeding the frogs unnecessarily in the hobby. I have about 7 or 8 breeding pairs of GOs and Reginas and have most of the traditional bloodlines in their own pairs. The "Giant Regina" project is only meant to be additive to the bloodlines that already exist. I think the line could end-up being its own "type" and maintained as such.

Because of the understanding we now have as to the unnatural division of the Regina locality frogs being separated for commercial reasons, I don't think it opens up any other frogs to such breeding programs (except "blue leg" and "gray leg" powderblues, which clearly come from the same population and separated only because of the "look" of the frogs based on color).

Take care, Richard.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

For GO/Regina I need more proof first, but even if they 'were' the same, unfortunately they have been separated for so long, so many generations they dont come close to looking the same anymore, and IME they still breed true to the 'lines'. Perhaps we've F'd them up forever?

Grey leg and Blue leg powder blue = same pop
Grey leg and Blue leg FG vents = same pop
No spot, and spot citronella = same pop
50% galac, 75% galac, 90% galac ect...

That needs to stop b/f we to the same to these animals too....

there are others....


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

On the Gray leg/Blue leg vents - they were divided up based on color, but probably are not from the same population. They appear to be a mix of several different importations - who knows if they are all from the same population. I'm not saying grays are one pop. and blues are another.


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