# Setting up a substrate



## tgrady (Sep 3, 2011)

Hi I am really new to keeping dart frogs and I have a few questions.

1) Im using live plants and I already have the clay balls and some mesh to seperate from the soil (substrate) but I have no idea what so ever of what my substrate should be consisted of.

2) Im using an 18 x 18 x 18 for two and im almost positive thats enough space. Right?

3)I have a medium zoo med waterfall, a very tiny and shallow water dish, a repti fogger, special lights for growing plants indoors, the clay and the mesh, and a little hideaway for some added privacy. Did I do something wrong? Am I missing something? Any recommendations?

I love animals, and I really dont want anything to happen to the frogs so I am asking for as much help as possible.
Also I don't actually own any frogs yet (I'm trying to complete the vivarium first) and i will get some flightless fruitflies on the same day i visit the breeder to pick up the frogs (probably leucomelas).

I appreciate any help and advice 
Thank You!


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

tgrady said:


> Hi I am really new to keeping dart frogs and I have a few questions.
> 
> 1) Im using live plants and I already have the clay balls and some mesh to seperate from the soil (substrate) but I have no idea what so ever of what my substrate should be consisted of.
> 
> ...


No offence, but you've been sucked into the marketing gimmicks. The waterfall being one. It takes up WAY to much space. Take it out! A medium waterfall is almost as big as your entire tank....

Use the ABG mix as your substrate. Best substrate for plant growth and drainage. i like to feed melos as they produce better than hydei.
Also the water dish in unnecessary.


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## Coppertop (Aug 13, 2011)

ABG mix is generally regarded as one of the best substrates, I believe. You should be able to order some (or something similar), from most online dart frog stores (just check out the sponsors section).

Also, I'd recommend buying your fruit flies in advance of your frogs, in order to practice culturing them before you actually need them. That way, if a culture crashes, you won't be scrambling to find food for your frogs. I'm just starting out as well, and am already culturing fruit flies without owning a frog.


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

You can buy a good substrate from many of our sponsors Or you could make your own out of various items. I make mine from coco coir, dried leaves, peat moss, Turface (or baked kitty litter (only certain brands)) and tree fern fiber. Its usually just easier to buy it as a whole and get some other stuff from the same vendor (food, frogs, plants)


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## tgrady (Sep 3, 2011)

Thank you guys for all Your help! and as far as the waterwall goes the dimensions listed give you the farthest points of each direction so it takes up less than a quarter of the cage. no as far as the water dish... i figured it was pointless because ive never seen another vivarium with one, however the local zoo (san diego zoo) does hav a few with tons of water which i always thought was strange.

I was told by many people to use that mix so you deffinitly made it clear to get that haha.

but i had one more question depending on the type of FF I get, how much should I feed them?


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Baby: 5-10 Hydei 20-30 Melonogaster
Juvenile: 8-12 Hydei 30-40 Melonogaster
Sub Adult: 20-30 Hydei 50-60 Melonogaster
Adult: 40+ Hydei 70+ Melonogaster

I personally like melonogaster, they're easiest to have reproduce IME, but for bigger frogs like terribilis, i'd feed hydei or crickets.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> Baby: 5-10 Hydei 20-30 Melonogaster
> Juvenile: 8-12 Hydei 30-40 Melonogaster
> Sub Adult: 20-30 Hydei 50-60 Melonogaster
> Adult: 40+ Hydei 70+ Melonogaster
> ...


Where you did you get those absolute values? I'm interested in seeing where you got the data on those numbers particularly the kcal/kg on the hydei. 
Just as a note, you are presenting facts as if you have them correct.... 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

To the OP, I would also suggest that you check out clay substrates. 


Ed


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

Ed said:


> Where you did you get those absolute values? I'm interested in seeing where you got the data on those numbers particularly the kcal/kg on the hydei.
> Just as a note, you are presenting facts as if you have them correct....
> 
> 
> Ed


I think those are fair values, if not a little high. Where did he say they were absolute? No where did he say they are facts, that might have been your own interpretation. I think it was probably more a suggested amount. Maybe instead of belittling, try adding your own suggestions?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nillocean said:


> I think those are fair values, if not a little high. Where did he say they were absolute? No where did he say they are facts, that might have been your own interpretation. I think it was probably more a suggested amount. Maybe instead of belittling, try adding your own suggestions?


 
There are no analysis on the caloric ratios of hydei that I have seen... so to supply a direct comparision that this many hydei is the equivalent to x melanogaster is totally inappropriate... 

As for the totals on melanogaster, even if they were based on the one breakdown I provided on this site, those numbers as the frogs grow do not match the literature... If he is going to state incorrect facts then he has to be able to deal with challenges on correctness. 

I still want to know where he got the information and how he interpreted it. 

So do you have information that allows you to indicate that those are correct comparisions of hydei to melanogaster? How many species of dendrobatids can the metamorphs take hydei right out of the water? 
What is the kcal/kg value for hydei? 

This isn't the first time he has been misquoting or misinterpreting stuff on this board.. through several different identities... 

Ed


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## Neontra (Aug 16, 2011)

Ed said:


> There are no analysis on the caloric ratios of hydei that I have seen... so to supply a direct comparision that this many hydei is the equivalent to x melanogaster is totally inappropriate...
> 
> As for the totals on melanogaster, even if they were based on the one breakdown I provided on this site, those numbers as the frogs grow do not match the literature... If he is going to state incorrect facts then he has to be able to deal with challenges on correctness.
> 
> ...


Ed, I don't see why you have to be so enraged over it. Those facts are ones i've taken, and aren't exact, neither did I say they were. I've done research, concluding hydei should be fed less than melonogaster, and those numbers are ones that I've taken from my experience and somewhat multiplied. As some of the bigger numbers, such as what I said for an adult, is most likely wrong.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Neontra said:


> Ed, I don't see why you have to be so enraged over it. Those facts are ones i've taken, and aren't exact, neither did I say they were. I've done research, concluding hydei should be fed less than melonogaster, and those numbers are ones that I've taken from my experience and somewhat multiplied. As some of the bigger numbers, such as what I said for an adult, is most likely wrong.


And what is your experience? How does your experience contradict the hard numbers worked out based on metabolic rates? 

As for why it ticks me off, it is because with little or no research and/or understanding you are quite willing to share information that has the potential to seriously harm an animal by readily stating it in a manner to indicate that you have the correct information. Even if someone points you to the correct information, you don't bother to really read over what is needed.. as an example, your comments on paprika totally ignoring that it has been spelled out several times that the red carotenoids in the paprika are poorly absorbed if they are absorbed at all, which renders it a poor choice for sustaining or changing red pigmentation.. And this was after you couldn't be bothered to read the provided links. 

Ed


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

i know it has been mentioned already in this thread, but get your flies now and start culturing, it could take you several weeks to get the hang of it or what will work for you. on a side note just because someone has a method of FF culturing that works for them, and you try it and it does just the opposite result. that is why you need to start now and find out what works for you. i have several sources to get FF's from in a crunch. since you live in San Diego i'm sure there are several avenues to get more FF's if you have production problems. get to know your local froggers as they will most likely be the ones to get FF in a time of need. one of the down falls of getting FF's shipped is that they get tossed around flipped up, down, up and down and this could have very harsh effects on the culture overall numbers because the boxes get tossed around like they are going out of style. that is why i am stressing the importance of getting everything locally when it comes to the FF's. shipping can be the downfall to a succesful culture.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> This isn't the first time he has been misquoting or misinterpreting stuff on this board.. through several different identities...
> 
> Ed


Heeeere's Johny!


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

Maybe I am missing some kind of bad-blood between the two of you since I have been away from the forum for a while now. Ed, as I remember from earlier encounters, you are very much informed. This is a good thing. My point is this, to facilitate a working community in which those are not in the know, strive to be in the know, why don't you just post the correct information and explain where you acquired it (research, experience, here-say, etc). If he/she doesn't take it for what its worth, than this is indicative of their own character not yours. The way you handle this makes you look the jerk, not the other way around. Don't be upset with me, but I think some on here take things a little overboard in their dominance assertion. Teach rather than beat.


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## ocellaris123 (Jun 13, 2011)

Nillocean said:


> Maybe I am missing some kind of bad-blood between the two of you since I have been away from the forum for a while now. Ed, as I remember from earlier encounters, you are very much informed. This is a good thing. My point is this, to facilitate a working community in which those are not in the know, strive to be in the know, why don't you just post the correct information and explain where you acquired it (research, experience, here-say, etc). If he/she doesn't take it for what its worth, than this is indicative of their own character not yours. The way you handle this makes you look the jerk, not the other way around. Don't be upset with me, but I think some on here take things a little overboard in their dominance assertion. Teach rather than beat.


Search posts by johnyrocks and you will have your answer.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nillocean said:


> Maybe I am missing some kind of bad-blood between the two of you since I have been away from the forum for a while now. Ed, as I remember from earlier encounters, you are very much informed. This is a good thing. My point is this, to facilitate a working community in which those are not in the know, strive to be in the know, why don't you just post the correct information and explain where you acquired it (research, experience, here-say, etc). If he/she doesn't take it for what its worth, than this is indicative of their own character not yours. The way you handle this makes you look the jerk, not the other way around. Don't be upset with me, but I think some on here take things a little overboard in their dominance assertion. Teach rather than beat.


 
The gist I'm taking from this post is that others don't have to demonstrate where they get thier information but I do... sorry, I'm not going with the flow here. He can either cough up the correct information or shut up.. it isn't like it is hard to find on the forum since I've written it a number of times. I do find it interesting that we now have had two additional people from Colorado defending him... 

He has been handed the correct information on a number of things in more than one of his incarnations.. and even then either ignores it and eventually gets in too deep and kills off his character to create a new one... 


Ed


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## WONTON SALLY (Jun 26, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Heeeere's Johny!


 
dude, you gotta believe he's still rambling and wildly posting craziness to get an uproar out most of us on hear. been quiet but i guess i haven't been paying attention to the aliases he's using.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Yes, I'm curious how many of the people from Colorado supporting him are just his alias'. 
I'm just going to call him out. Neontra, you treat information given to you, the exact same way that Johnyrocks did. You are Johnyrocks, you just quit calling people names.


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

Ed said:


> The gist I'm taking from this post is that others don't have to demonstrate where they get thier information but I do... sorry, I'm not going with the flow here. He can either cough up the correct information or shut up.. it isn't like it is hard to find on the forum since I've written it a number of times. I do find it interesting that we now have had two additional people from Colorado defending him...
> 
> He has been handed the correct information on a number of things in more than one of his incarnations.. and even then either ignores it and eventually gets in too deep and kills off his character to create a new one...
> 
> ...


No I would say Ed, to make sure no one gets bad information, post your own. I don't believe this was his thread, he was merely stating what he thought he knew. Be it right or wrong. 

//The gist I'm taking from this post is that others don't have to demonstrate where they get their information but I do// 

Once again, no. I think people would probably just accept whatever you decide to tell them and you don't have to waste time raging on someone who most likely wont change. Just a suggestion. And yes I am from Colorado. No I am not an alias of Neontra. I just don't think belittling people is conducive to learning, something you advocate yet rarely do without ego massage.

Collin


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

Sorry for the derailment tgrady.


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## ocellaris123 (Jun 13, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Yes, I'm curious how many of the people from Colorado supporting him are just his alias'.
> I'm just going to call him out. Neontra, you treat information given to you, the exact same way that Johnyrocks did. You are Johnyrocks, you just quit calling people names.


In his introduction post of neontra he did say his name was johny. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/72083-hey-im-new-here.html


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

ocellaris123 said:


> In his introduction post of neontra he did say his name was johny. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/72083-hey-im-new-here.html


I've been ignoring all his misinformation (in every freakin thread), but now I'm calling him out every time he spits out more bs. New people need good information to be successful and stay in the hobby.

To the OP...check out ABG mix, it really is good stuff. If you want something more simple you can mix 60% long-fiber sphagnum moss (quality is important), 20% cocohusk, and 20% orchid bark. Adding shredded up leaves (oak, maple, etc...make sure they are clean) will improve the quality markedly. Searching "substrates" would be a really good idea. 
Good Luck! 
P.S. Feeding a frog 70 melanos a day is a little bit overboard just to clarify


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fieldnstream said:


> I've been ignoring all his misinformation (in every freakin thread), but now I'm calling him out every time he spits out more bs. New people need good information to be successful and stay in the hobby.


I'm actually surprised he hasn't created new aliases to support himself as of yet like he did the last time.. In any case, isn't this about the same level of grief he was getting when he "killed" off his other two aliases with bogus "crises"? 

Ed


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I think he has enough aliases to fit the DSM-IV criteria for dissociative identity disorder.


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## tgrady (Sep 3, 2011)

I just wanted to say i really appriciate the lengths that are being taken so I can get the correct info. (Which I have been able to pick out through this post and information I have gathered on my own). The other day my girlfriend actually picked up some frogletts from a less than reputable store.

However the store had only had them for a day and with the vitamins and calcium i give them they are looking extremely healthy in through their first week.

The store called them Super Blue and Black Auratus (Blue and Bronze?) well which ever ones they are we are extremely happy with them and you guys helped out a lot!
SO THANK YOU!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry for the derailment and I'm glad we didn't scare you off! Welcome aboard!


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

tgrady said:


> I just wanted to say i really appriciate the lengths that are being taken so I can get the correct info. (Which I have been able to pick out through this post and information I have gathered on my own). The other day my girlfriend actually picked up some frogletts from a less than reputable store.
> 
> However the store had only had them for a day and with the vitamins and calcium i give them they are looking extremely healthy in through their first week.
> 
> ...


If you plan on selling any froglets they create if they start breeding, you'll want to find out what morph they are.... there is a "Super Blue," a "Blue and Black," and a "Blue and Bronze," I'm not terribly familiar with auratus lineage so I'm not sure how many different lines (if any) there are between the 3 morphs...


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