# Fruit fly breeding tank instead of culturing?



## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

Please forgive me if this has been brought up before, I did a couple searches and came up empty. If that is the case, a link would be much appreciated.

First off, I'll state that I don't want to do this but am only curious. Can fruit flies be set up in a large fish tank (I'm thinkin 30g+) and bred there? Like a fruit fly paradise? The entire bottom would be food, maybe have a cleaning crew like you have for frogs but that deal with the fruit fly waste. Any reasons this isn't common practice? I am probably missing some fact that would render this idea outrageous and would be interested to know what it is.


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## tgoff0112 (Apr 28, 2013)

Mite infestation would be the biggest issue IMO


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

I would never want to open to start with. It's easy to shake them all down in a deli cup but could you imagine trying to do that with a 30g. As soon as you knock half down the other half is crawling back up.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Impossible to harvest. You will end up with tens of thousands, maybe even millions of fruit flies everywhere. Well, everywhere but in your frog's tank.
Horrible stench of rotting media. I cannot stress enough how bad this would smell if you were somehow able to keep it moist and producing for 3 months. You wouldn't want to live in your house.
You can't "maintain" rotting media. What kind of cleaning crew would remove and clean out rotting corpses, rotting media, and all the casings, then mix up new media, sterilize everything every 30 days for mite prevention, and set it all back up.
Sorry if it seems like a "smart" answer, but it is so very NOT doable. You are going to have to get your hands dirty like the rest of us, if you want to enjoy this hobby.


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## Daoriginalmaze (Feb 16, 2014)

It would be pretty cool if you had a place to keep it that smell wasn't an issue with a tube from the tank to your viv like a "fly bridge" But then it would be hard to dust.... I considered doing this with ants at one point but decided against it for various reasons.


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## smoyer (Jul 9, 2007)

It seems like a much harder way to go about raising ff's; and the logistics of feeding would require something that has yet to be invented. But Pumilo's scenario is exactly what I am picturing. Just a smelly sloppy moldy mess. Think road kill at high noon in your house... 

But, part of me thinks how cool it would be for that one week before everything goes foul. 
30 gallon fruit fly culture...awesome!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I actually tried culturing in a one gallon milk jug once. The logistics of that made it impossible, or maybe I should say difficult to overcome. The larger mass of the media, spread over the bottom of the milk jug, simply would not stick to the bottom, when trying to tip the jug for harvest.
Out of desperation, I fashioned a hose, but they outsmarted me. Apparently, living in a world of food and sex, is more attractive to them than marching single file to their froggy death. Imagine that. 

In the end I believe I harvested a few hundred flies from that experiment, while I watched ten thousand die and go to waste.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

smoyer said:


> .
> 
> But, part of me thinks how cool it would be for that one week before everything goes foul.
> 30 gallon fruit fly culture...awesome!


If you had something that contained the adults in the tank, picture the first time you removed the lid.. the mass of flies that would be rushing up and over the edge like a massive army establishing a beachead.... and then the subsequent wandering of the flies around your living space searching for water, food and a place to lay eggs... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Come on Ed, a little extra protein in your beer is good for you.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

When the surface of the beer looks like it's full of little brown rice crispy things that are trying to swim it's beyond a little bit of protein... 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed, I had a roommate once that poured beer in his rice crispies on a regular basis. Somehow we fell out of touch.


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

Exactly what I was looking for, thanks! I knew there would be some pretty obvious reasons...and y'all are hilarious!


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## ag-au (Feb 2, 2014)

I imagine if you overcome the smell issues, imagine a flight fly contaminating.. That would be way easier in a big tank! You open to harvest and BAM! They fly at your face!


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## darkmethos (Feb 17, 2014)

energy grew ff in his huge viv and the frogs just helped themselves.
For me that was an excellent idea.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

darkmethos said:


> energy grew ff in his huge viv and the frogs just helped themselves.
> For me that was an excellent idea.


How do you propose supplementing the frogs with vitamins and calcium? Mixing vitamins into the media will NOT work. Certain vitamins will be sequestered in levels hundreds of times what is normal. This blocks others from being utilized, even though they are present. The end balance that your frogs receive will be all out of whack. Frogs have died this way. Energy has a beautiful system but if you read the thread, there have been many losses, replaced by other animals. I'm not sure citing that thread is proof that this would work. Keeping frogs without dusting, and culturing without dusting before feed out, has proven fatal over and over again. Energy's system supplies no proof to the contrary.
Flies must be dusted with proper vitamin supplements or your frogs will suffer and die.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Keeping frogs without dusting, and culturing without dusting before feed out, has proven fatal over and over again. Energy's system supplies no proof to the contrary.
> Flies must be dusted with proper vitamin supplements or your frogs will suffer and die.


I'm all for new ideas... But sometimes people need to stop trying to reinvent the wheel. What Doug said here is true and there is no way to get around it. Fruit flies need supplements.


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

I only wish to restate that I never planned on trying to create new or easier ways to feed. I was simply curious. I feed and dust mine with the traditional method and I am not seeking another way.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

volcano23000 said:


> I only wish to restate that I never planned on trying to create new or easier ways to feed. I was simply curious. I feed and dust mine with the traditional method and I am not seeking another way.


Understood, and sorry if my post came across as calling you out in any way... It was more directed at another thread that irks me because people always say how awesome it was despite the fact that the builder repeatedly ignored suggestions to the detriment of the health of his animals.


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

Sure, I simply wanted to keep my name clear


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

volcano23000 said:


> I only wish to restate that I never planned on trying to create new or easier ways to feed. I was simply curious. I feed and dust mine with the traditional method and I am not seeking another way.


I understand that. You let go of a bad idea quickly, when real reasons were given to you. It is now somebody else who will not let go. I feel somebody has to say something in case new froggers are deceived and kill their frogs through misinformation. If my statements come across a little harsh, sorry, but the misinformation must die, quickly and mercilessly.
Your name is clear.


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## volcano23000 (Feb 22, 2012)

I was not offended by anyone's comments and I have no problem if someone wants to delete this thread.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

volcano23000 said:


> I was not offended by anyone's comments and I have no problem if someone wants to delete this thread.


It's still a good thread, and should stay up, Asad. New froggers may see it and understand that in-tank culturing is a pipe dream. It's only a matter of time before it kills your animals....very slowly and possibly painfully.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> It's still a good thread, and should stay up, Asad. New froggers may see it and understand that in-tank culturing is a pipe dream. It's only a matter of time before it kills your animals....very slowly and possibly painfully.



I don't know that I would call it a pipe dream. We've come a long way already in the last ten years.. for example, clay substrates, inoculating enclosures with invertebrates to try and achieve something a little closer to an ecosystem, the value of UVB, and the importance of carotenoids in the diet. 
Where we run into issues is that we can't ensure that the frogs will achieve a balanced diet and that's where we have issues. One of my friends who is an ecologist one calculated out the minimal amount of usable space that would enable an enclosure with a single pumilo to be self sufficient calorically and (if I remember correctly), came up with 3 cubic meters.. (This isn't a volume of 3 cubic meters but three cubic meters of usable habitat.) Obviously it would also require a much wider variety of invertebrate fauna to allow for prey choice so the frogs could target nutrients (not proven in dendrobatids as of yet but demonstrated in other taxa like lizards). 

I think I would call it the holy grail instead of a pipe dream. It may not be possible right now particularly with the current mindset of minimal sized enclosures, conditions to maximize reproduction and activity, and the desire to have a wide variety of dendrobatids.... but some day it should be possible. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Wow, you guys give up so easy. You don't have to fill the bottom of the with media. How about putting in petrie dishes with media in them and a toilet paper tube stuck in the middle for larvae to crawl onto. You could have several at different ages in the tank and rotate them out after the initial hatch. Have the tank on mite paper and wipe the top with some anti-mite solution a couple times a week.

Design a pyramid shaped top that had a funnel at the top that you could attach a large diameter hose to it. When you want flies just bang the tank around a little so they climb up the walls and out the tube. The pyramid might not be able to be glass because my fruit flies don't seem to walk upside down on glass too well.

Would I do this? No, but its fun to think about stuff like this. For me, if I had room to put another 30 gal tank somewhere, I would fill it with frogs, not flies.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry Ed, you are right, as usual. I wanted to put this to rest, as I feel most of the hobby, myself included would kill frogs playing with this.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I still think it is a fools errand when we are just talking about fruit flies though... which is what most people try to do.

I don't think anyone ever disagreed that if we could culture a wide variety of feeders in the tank and add in uvb and a calcium bearing substrate... that we would be able to recreate (or get real close to) the frog's natural diet and natural vitamin uptake. 

However, most people when talking about this are strictly talking about fruit flies and the current readily available feeder items (isopods and springs), which to my understanding will never be able provide the full nutritional requirements of the frogs.

So yes, a self sustaining tank would be the holy grail... but an automatic/self sustaining fruit fly system is not an answer to the nutritional needs of the frog... it is an answer to not wanting to manually feed the frog.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> So yes, a self sustaining tank would be the holy grail... but an automatic/self sustaining fruit fly system is not an answer to the nutritional needs of the frog... it is an answer to not wanting to manually feed the frog.


If done properly it could help encourage natural feeding behaviors.... 

It's one of the things that is possible and people should ponder it as we are in no way close to really cracking all of the husbandry needs of the frogs. For example, in optimal habitat the density of O. pumilio is often much higher than what people succeed in achieving in captivity.. yet few people are asking questions as to why that is the case..... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## darkmethos (Feb 17, 2014)

Pumilo said:


> How do you propose supplementing the frogs with vitamins and calcium? Mixing vitamins into the media will NOT work. Certain vitamins will be sequestered in levels hundreds of times what is normal. This blocks others from being utilized, even though they are present. The end balance that your frogs receive will be all out of whack. Frogs have died this way. Energy has a beautiful system but if you read the thread, there have been many losses, replaced by other animals. I'm not sure citing that thread is proof that this would work. Keeping frogs without dusting, and culturing without dusting before feed out, has proven fatal over and over again. Energy's system supplies no proof to the contrary.
> Flies must be dusted with proper vitamin supplements or your frogs will suffer and die.


I am not trying to invent or promote any new methods or ideas on feeding, I was simply making an affirmation. I did not say it is good or bad for the frogs or other people, I said that for me that was an excellent idea of having a self sustaining ff culture within his tank. I agree I did not express myself fully and comprehensively.
I also did not say I was going to put it to practice. 
I fully understand the importance of vitamins and minerals in a captive animals diet as my other hobby is also about keeping and breeding captive animals and I am doing it for much longer and at a much higher level than where I am with frogging. Also i understand the importance of a varied diet so by no means will I ever support a diet based on just one item and lacking in vitamins and minerals.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

darkmethos said:


> I am not trying to invent or promote any new methods or ideas on feeding, I was simply making an affirmation. I did not say it is good or bad for the frogs or other people, I said that for me that was an excellent idea of having a self sustaining ff culture within his tank. I agree I did not express myself fully and comprehensively.
> I also did not say I was going to put it to practice.
> I fully understand the importance of vitamins and minerals in a captive animals diet as my other hobby is also about keeping and breeding captive animals and I am doing it for much longer and at a much higher level than where I am with frogging. Also i understand the importance of a varied diet so by no means will I ever support a diet based on just one item and lacking in vitamins and minerals.


Nothing against you, friend. Just trying to point out some of the problems that will eventually occur with _improperly done_ (for you Ed!), in tank feeding. 
If I sounded offended, it wasn't about you. I am offended by "disposable animals". I have spent very little time on...a certain thread, because in the little time I spent there, I saw a lot of disposable animals.
I am glad you understand the importance of vitamins and minerals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

darkmethos said:


> energy grew ff in his huge viv and the frogs just helped themselves.
> For me that was an excellent idea.





darkmethos said:


> I am not trying to invent or promote any new methods or ideas on feeding, I was simply making an affirmation. I did not say it is good or bad for the frogs or other people, I said that for me that was an excellent idea of having a self sustaining ff culture within his tank. I agree I did not express myself fully and comprehensively.
> I also did not say I was going to put it to practice.


If we look at your original statement you can see why it got flagged. Doug simply said a lot of what I would have said about it. The way you presented the statement was without caveats and worded in such a way that is hard to believe you are not endorsing it. Your trying to backpedal now by implying that you didn't endorse it.... yet without those caveats in the first post, it is very hard to interpret in any other fashion. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## darkmethos (Feb 17, 2014)

As a complete noob to frogging I cannot endorse or condone anything but the idea of the frogs actively hunting free flying prey ( like they did in that scenario) seemed a nice behaviour enrichment versus the easy pickings that are the dusted flies.
Once again, I recognise the lacunar statement and the possible misinterpretations.
And also once again, I recognise the importance of a varied and supplemented diet for captive and furthermore caged animals, like frogs are. 
Sorry if I offended or ticked anyone, didn't mean to.
I plan on feeding my frogs a diet as varied as possible especially during the summer months when I have access to loads of "organic" insects. Just need to continue reading to see what is edible for them.
Hopefully in about six months when I will feel documented enough to get me a few frogs I will have most of the answers I need.


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