# Toxicity in W/C darts...



## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

I picked up my first pair of w/c darts over the weekend. I have only dealt with c/b dart frogs up to this point so I wanted to know if anyone has had problems where the toxins have made them sick, or any issues that have risen from this. Also, I set up all of my vivs with a water feature and I have a female betta in every tank which eats any fruitflies that fall in. Does anyone know if the toxins from the w/c darts can leach out into the water and potentially kill the betta?


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## kingnicky101 (Feb 20, 2009)

I think that might depend what dart they are, but i'm no expert. I know that wc terribilis are extremely toxic and can burn your skin through touch. But some darts like auratus you won't have to worry about unless you ingest the poison.


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

kingnicky101 said:


> I think that might depend what dart they are, but i'm no expert. I know that wc terribilis are extremely toxic and can burn your skin through touch. But some darts like auratus you won't have to worry about unless you ingest the poison.


Thanks, I forgot say what they were. I got a pair of tinctorius alanis. I also am curious how long they will keep their toxicity once they are in captivity. I understand that this is information that may not be known, just curious of it was.


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## AlexD (Sep 19, 2007)

This is totally unscientific and subjective, but my pums were imported in '04. I had an open cut on my hand that I accidentally pushed into very close contact with my female the other day while moving her to a different tank. In just a few minutes, I began to feel awful. For several hours, I had a killer headache and felt very nauseous and dizzy. Kind of like a hangover. That could be incidental, but I am going to take more care in the future...


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well, as far as tintcst and auratus go there have been no incident that i know of that has presented to be a problem, but i do know of someone in Europe quite a few years back who had a pair of wild caught terriblis for 5 years and were still toxic, so i guess it all dpends on what the frogs are feeding on to determine how long they woudl retain the toxin.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Dendrobatid Toxicity for purposes of our hobby is not very well defined at all...

My personal observations of having seen mortality in importer facilities...

Pumilio can definately "Tox" each other out. The BEST advice I can give on newly aquired WC pums is to quarantine them seperately for several weeks and even after than...keep them seperate in Temp containers for at least another several weeks.

When they are upset and stressed by new surroundings and especially other frogs....the toxin is a danger to all the other frogs and probably themselves.

Can't speak for the Beta fish or a paper cut on a human hand though.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

what do you mean by beta fish?


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

Julio said:


> what do you mean by beta fish?


I put a betta splendens in my dartfrog vivariums that have a water area, they eat the fruitflies that fall into the water.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

yep....mine go "mental" for extra FF


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I know what they are, i thought Phil was talking abotu them beign toxic.


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

Julio said:


> I know what they are, i thought Phil was talking abotu them beign toxic.


Oh, I asked in my first post if the dart frogs poison would kill a betta. He was just replying that he didn't know.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

I have been researching Dendrobatid Toxicity for a few weeks now to do an article for my website, and I have only just started getting some where as quality info seems hard to find. I have read on a few PDF files and on a website that Dendrobates and Phyllobates can keep there toxins 5 years plus, depending on conditions, diet and how much toxin they had built up before being captured.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I was wondering where you got this info. It seems to me that if this were true, pumilio would not be able to wrestle or mate in the wild. I remember reading this before though. I think it was a wrongful conclusion on what they saw and the frogs were dying because of bad conditions not that their poisons were harming each other. I`ve seen pics of wc pumilio wrestling w/ wc auratus in a tank w/ no problems.



Philsuma said:


> Dendrobatid Toxicity for purposes of our hobby is not very well defined at all...
> 
> My personal observations of having seen mortality in importer facilities...
> 
> ...


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## bchan (Feb 21, 2009)

> I was wondering where you got this info. It seems to me that if this were true, pumilio would not be able to wrestle or mate in the wild. I remember reading this before though. I think it was a wrongful conclusion on what they saw and the frogs were dying because of bad conditions not that their poisons were harming each other. I`ve seen pics of wc pumilio wrestling w/ wc auratus in a tank w/ no problems.


Hey Aaron,
I'm with you on this one. My guess is that it is [extremely] poor conditions that cause mortality in the hands of importers. When W.C. darts die, often toxins are released, and perhaps people are seeing a bunch of dead frogs sitting in frothy, toxic, water and assume the toxin killed them.
~B


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## sly fox (Nov 26, 2009)

thats cool...how deeps the water area? 



Jerm said:


> I put a betta splendens in my dartfrog vivariums that have a water area, they eat the fruitflies that fall into the water.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

I also believe that wc or wild specamins do not intoxicate each other has they have a resistnce to the toxin. If not they would die themselfs just through carrying it and would not be able to go into amplexeus. P.terriblis have proven reistance to the toxins. There cells have developed a resistance to the blockages caused by the alkaliods, this rendering them emmune from the poison. The only way i could see it being possible is if the frogs were from different localitys and had a different variasion of Pumiliotoxin.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Knighty said:


> I also believe that wc or wild specamins do not intoxicate each other has they have a resistnce to the toxin. If not they would die themselfs just through carrying it and would not be able to go into amplexeus.


Which frogs go into amplexus?


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

ChrisK said:


> Which frogs go into amplexus?












No the same as with a A.callidryas, but there is still physical contact invovled, body rubbing, anal rubbing. can be seen in P.Terribilis, D.Tinctouris, leucs....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> No the same as with a A.callidryas, but there is still physical contact invovled, body rubbing, anal rubbing. can be seen in P.Terribilis, D.Tinctouris, leucs....


Physical contact during reproduction does not constitute amplexus.. amplexus is a specific action during the reproductive process and there are different types of amplexus. Not all dendrobatids are known to have amplexus, for example. O. histrionicus, and O. granuliferus do not have any form of amplexus. Do you have a reference for amplexus is D. tinctorius or leucomelas? 

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi ed, sorry for being a little unspecific, i did explain it was not the same as in Hylids such as A.Callidryas. I have no reference for amplexus in the same way as A.callidryas, but i have some images of Leucs and Tincs displaying courtship behaviour.

Also here are soem quotes i cited.

Dendrobates leucomelas - Once a female chooses a male she will follow him to his area and stroke his back and snout. Sometimes both the male and female will slowly circle one another and stamp their feet (Walls 1994)

Dendrobates tinctorius - Mating behavior starts with the male calling from his position in tree leaves or on the ground. The female is attracted by his calls and strokes the male's snout and back in a typical poison frog courtship sequence (Walls 1994)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> Dendrobates leucomelas - Once a female chooses a male she will follow him to his area and stroke his back and snout. Sometimes both the male and female will slowly circle one another and stamp their feet (Walls 1994)
> 
> Dendrobates tinctorius - Mating behavior starts with the male calling from his position in tree leaves or on the ground. The female is attracted by his calls and strokes the male's snout and back in a typical poison frog courtship sequence (Walls 1994)


No problem but those behaviors are not considered amplexus of any of the types (inguinal, axillary or lumbar). They are simply contact that occurs during courtship. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Still no word on where this info is coming from?


frogfarm said:


> I was wondering where you got this info. It seems to me that if this were true, pumilio would not be able to wrestle or mate in the wild. I remember reading this before though. I think it was a wrongful conclusion on what they saw and the frogs were dying because of bad conditions not that their poisons were harming each other. I`ve seen pics of wc pumilio wrestling w/ wc auratus in a tank w/ no problems.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> I was wondering where you got this info. It seems to me that if this were true, pumilio would not be able to wrestle or mate in the wild. I remember reading this before though. I think it was a wrongful conclusion on what they saw and the frogs were dying because of bad conditions not that their poisons were harming each other. I`ve seen pics of wc pumilio wrestling w/ wc auratus in a tank w/ no problems.


Hi Aaron,

This is purely a non scientific observation obtained by personal discussion with two different Florida Importers (not Marcus) and direct observation.

As far as "Toxin" being released and/or actually debilitating or killing other like species....that's not proven of course. The observations were from obviously overcrowded single species temporary enclosures. Some enclosures were not disenfected or regularly cleaned but others were given decent hygenic care and treatment and mortality was basically the same.

Just a theory at this point, that I am open to consider, to be more clear.

Sorry I couldn't reply sooner...I was out of the country.

Phil


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Phil,

The problem can originate prior to import.... an item to consider is that many of the bacteria that cause septicemias can be very communicable and cause death very very quickly..(like Aeromonas hydrophilia). 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Very true Ed,

I don't know if a "similar" die off can occur in other frog species, as I haven't really been interested in acquiring info on them.

As far as wrestling and skin to skin contact in the wild....very different as the animal has a chance to break contact and flee the area, IF there is a question of toxin of some sort. Not possible in a small viv or overcrowed holding enclosure.

Death by bacteria or toxin release of some sort due to stress from overcrowding......either way.....the spin off point I was trying to make, was that if source country collection efforts and import warehousing included single animal "critter carrier" caging, mortality could not help but to dramatically decrease.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Philsuma said:


> Very true Ed,
> 
> I don't know if a "similar" die off can occur in other frog species, as I haven't really been interested in acquiring info on them.
> 
> ...


Hi Phil,

I've seen it in the pet trade (when I worked there back in the day).. and have seen even "hardy" species like marine toads show those symptoms and roll, with the rest of the group following even when the toad was removed before actually succombing, the rest of the inhabitants were rinsed off, and the cage was immediately stripped and cleaned. 

And I have seen it occur even in species that don't tend to secrete visible toxins (even though there are active peptides in thier skin) like green frogs, green tree frogs and leopard frogs. 

At my current employer when we have seen this in recent imports in quarantine, the necropsies tend to show massive septicemias. 

Ed


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## NCStateHerps (Jun 18, 2007)

a lot of the literature talks of a 'fall off' in toxicity once dendrobatids are in captivity due to the lack of alkaloids in their diet. They've even expressed differences in toxicity in "farmed frogs" vs. true wild frogs based on the food availability. 

I've read accounts of recently imported bicolor being handled upon arrival and the importers falling ill to the toxins. 

My adventures in Panama I was careful to come in contact with any of the frogs I saw, but at times I was handling individuals for a brief moment for photographic purposes. I tried to wash my hands ASAP with spring water or salt water as we got back on the boat. 

Our guide informed us of a tourist handling a mainland auratus and falling quite ill hours later with severe cramps, diarrhea and headache for the remainder of the trip. That was enough for me to try and reduce my interaction with wild frogs.


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## ESweet (Apr 13, 2009)

NCStateHerps said:


> Our guide informed us of a tourist handling a mainland auratus and falling quite ill hours later with severe cramps, diarrhea and headache for the remainder of the trip. That was enough for me to try and reduce my interaction with wild frogs.



I know this thread is a little old, but I just can't help myself.. First off.. If a tourist makes it out of Panama without succumbing to severe cramps, diarrhea and headache at some point, I'm quite impressed. This was likely just a coincidence.

As for the animal toxicity though... I have spent many many many hours working with pumilio and auratus in Costa Rica / Panama and have never personally had an issue. Though I've also never had their toxins come into direct contact with an open wound of any kind.

As a biochemist, I can see no conceivable way that one pumilio could poison another pumilio. First off, the frogs are able to contain the poisons in their bodies, because the poison does not affect them. The same poisons from another pumilio would not affect them either - it just wouldn't happen biochemically. *[However, if a pumilio from Nicaragua came into contact with one from Panama, it is conceivable that it would be possible, though very unlikely as different localities seem to have the same toxins available, just in different relative concentrations.] Second, if a pumilio were able to poison another pumilio it would be able to poison itself. Not very likely. Third I have witnessed wild frogs [pumilio, granuliferus and auratus] wrestle for hours and I usually wear out watching them before they wear out from wrestling. No killing of one of them - usually just a pin-down and an eventual submission.

As for how quickly they lose their toxins, there is very very little information about this. In fact, this is an area of research I'm hoping to look into when I find the time and get the proper research permits. It's actually an important question as it also relates to how quickly they can actually build up their poisons, what limits their toxicity and what it takes to maintain toxicity. Amazing and cool stuff. The only thing I recall finding on this was something about P. Terribilis and it as from a biologist versus a biochemist / chemist.

[Sorry I didn't have time to write a short response]


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

ESweet said:


> As a biochemist, I can see no conceivable way that one pumilio could poison another pumilio. First off, the frogs are able to contain the poisons in their bodies, because the poison does not affect them. The same poisons from another pumilio would not affect them either - it just wouldn't happen biochemically. *[However, if a pumilio from Nicaragua came into contact with one from Panama, it is conceivable that it would be possible, though very unlikely as different localities seem to have the same toxins available, just in different relative concentrations.] Second, if a pumilio were able to poison another pumilio it would be able to poison itself. Not very likely. Third I have witnessed wild frogs [pumilio, granuliferus and auratus] wrestle for hours and I usually wear out watching them before they wear out from wrestling. No killing of one of them - usually just a pin-down and an eventual submission.


Kyle Summers published a paper on the toxicity of pumilio in the Bocas archipelago and found that toxicity varies significantly and widely between morphs. I will have to go back to the paper to see if toxin composition varied between morphs. Given the huge variability of toxins in the frogs, it would not surprise me if composition varied between morphs (especially when you take into account that they've been separated for thousands of years). I know that when we were housing pumilio for mate choice trials, we had to thoroughly clean containers to avoid residual toxins (and disease).

While I would not expect a Bastimentos to poison a Bastimentos by wrestling, it would not surprise me if importers lumped a number of different morphs together and some died by being poisoned by other frogs. I also have no doubt that some would die from poor conditions, though.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

pardon me if this sounds sophomoric but im no scientist, and my understanding of the toxins is very limited, but if the theory proposed here, that frogs wrestling could lead to death, is true (which i doubt when we are talking about same species and close localities since prey items should be similar) wouldn't the shedding and ingestion of the skin kill the frog as well? i have (probably incorrectly) assumed that as well as keeping their skin clean and fresh they might actually reuse the toxins by ingesting them. i know that some alkaloids (not those from PDFs) are known to potentially pass through the human digestive tract unchanged, so it doesnt seem to outlandish that they may be recycling the toxins does it?

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MonarchzMan said:


> Kyle Summers published a paper on the toxicity of pumilio in the Bocas archipelago and found that toxicity varies significantly and widely between morphs. I will have to go back to the paper to see if toxin composition varied between morphs. Given the huge variability of toxins in the frogs, it would not surprise me if composition varied between morphs (especially when you take into account that they've been separated for thousands of years). I know that when we were housing pumilio for mate choice trials, we had to thoroughly clean containers to avoid residual toxins (and disease).
> 
> While I would not expect a Bastimentos to poison a Bastimentos by wrestling, it would not surprise me if importers lumped a number of different morphs together and some died by being poisoned by other frogs. I also have no doubt that some would die from poor conditions, though.


 Toxicity profile(s) vary not only by region, but over time (even over the course of a season) as the profile depends on which inverts they have been feeding on for the toxins. Since the profile within the species varies temporally as well as by geographic region, it would be very difficult for the frogs to poison each other (within the species of pumilio) as the mechanism for uptake and sequestering are the same. 

See ScienceDirect - Toxicon : Spatial and temporal patterns of alkaloid variation in the poison frog Oophaga pumilio in Costa Rica and Panama over 30 years 

see also SpringerLink - Journal Article

Daly also already thought about the recylcing of the alkaloids when the skin was shed see The Alkaloids: Chemistry and Biology - Google Books

Toxicity in this case due to the alkaloids is unlikely as they have evolved pathways to prevent the toxin from acting on their own systems (otherwise how could they bypass the effects on themselves). 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

also, we have different kinds of physical contact.

1. Male / male combating in the wild.
2. Large groups of Pumilio climbing all over each other in a import container.

It could be that a different type of chemical is at work here as these are two very different forms of stress. It may also be something bacterial.

When we say that the frogs are "toxing" each other out, thats a general non scientific husbandry term and used more so to deride someone who is craming too many frogs together. 

I do feel that Pumilio are dying in crowded import conditions due to "something else" other than poor conditions.

Ed, if you could find a better, more applicable term we could substitute for that -it'd be great.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

How about overcrowding or outright bad husbandry as the deaths have to do w/ bacterial, waste, env quality problems, not toxins, which are all husbandry issues.




Philsuma said:


> also, we have different kinds of physical contact.
> 
> 1. Male / male combating in the wild.
> 2. Large groups of Pumilio climbing all over each other in a import container.
> ...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> How about overcrowding or outright bad husbandry as the deaths have to do w/ bacterial, waste, env quality problems, not toxins, which are all husbandry issues.


Nah....there's something else going on beyond bad husbandry issues.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

And in each case it could be different. Chytrid, septicemia, rolling in their own waste, dehydration, overheating, underfeeding, stress,etc. etc. etc. or a combination of any of the above. By giving a garbage can name your just writing it off as something that just happens. It doesn`t just happen, in each case it has a cause.



Philsuma said:


> Nah....there's something else going on beyond bad husbandry issues.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If we are going to give it a term to cover all of the potential causes of death for new imports it is called maladaption syndrome unless another cause can be definitively confirmed (septicemia, trauma, ammonia poisoning, starvation, are a few (but not all) examples that would remove it from that category). 

When large numbers of amphibians are housed together in an enviroment in which there is no removal of waste materials, toxicity to ammonia and/or nitrite may be primary causes of mortality. 
Transmissible septicemias are another possibility that occur when animals are housed in large groups in poor conditions. The only way to differentiate between the two is a necropsy. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Think of the important scientific research that could be obtained through the unique study of various Pumilio mortality in crowded import conditions.

I'm willing to bet that no one has done necropsies or tested the hundreds of dead frogs in such conditions.

I doubt importers would ever allow it, especially with the recent Global Exotics fiasco.

It's bittersweet, as we could learn a lot, but only from the continued poor conditions of the importer.


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## araceae (Jan 28, 2010)

be carefull with the betta, they might try to take a bite out of the frog killing themselves and injuring or killing the frog.


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## ESweet (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm going to have to agree with Aaron - I think it is a result of poor husbandry. If you cram a bunch of frogs together and they die, it's a result of bad husbandry, regardless of what directly contributed to the death, whether it is overcrowding or frog-frog toxicity. The point is it is bad husbandry to cram a bunch of frogs together and it should not be done regardless.

Ed, very elegently put what I've been trying to say "it would be very difficult for the frogs to poison each other (within the species of pumilio) as the mechanism for uptake and sequestering are the same. "

Phil, I totally agree with what you said: "Think of the important scientific research that could be obtained through the unique study of various Pumilio mortality in crowded import conditions."

Unfortunately, I doubt any importer would allow anybody necropsy access on their 'bad batches.' If they are seeing large levels of mortality, it's usually "just business" for them. =[

Erik


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