# newbie



## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

okay so im going to set up a 20g high or 30g viv for some posion dart frogs. 

i have mainly questions about the substrate.

1) does it have to be in layers?

2) i want to have a kinda small pond/waterfall how can i do this?

3) i need some names of substrates to use that are the easiest. this is really the only thing i dont have any clue about. thanks!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Welcome newbie! 

Substrate is usually all mixed together, rather than in layers. The layers you do want are either your false bottom or drainage layer below the substrate.

ABG is reported to be a good substrate. It (and other substrates) can be found on some of the sponsor's websites. I make my own with stuff I have around the house for my orchids. I think it's pretty similar: crunched up natural charcoal, orchid bark, sphagnum moss, coco fiber. There are lots of options for substrate. You just want something that will drain well and will support plants.

Here is my quick and easy tank with pond: Use LECA for a drainage layer. First put in the mesh or screen. Then in one corner I put in some pebbles to hold down the corner. A small branch as a hmm don't know the word. To hold the substrate from falling into the pebbles. Once that is in place, then I lift up the screen and pour LECA into the rest of the tank. The pebble layer is lower than the LECA layer so that when you add water, it rises above the pebbles but below the top of the LECA.

If you do a pond with eggcrate as a false bottom, it's a little trickier, IMO. You cut your eggcrate to fit the tank, then cut out a section for the pond. Then you take pieces of eggcrate to box in that area. Cover the whole thing with mesh or screen, to keep debris and frogs from getting under the false bottom.

Take a long look around in the construction area. You will see some amazing builds in there and you're sure to get some great ideas.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

frogface said:


> Welcome newbie!
> 
> Substrate is usually all mixed together, rather than in layers. The layers you do want are either your false bottom or drainage layer below the substrate.
> 
> ...


thanks! i went to my local reptile shop and they recommended the egg crate with mesh then suggested zoo med eco earth, and flukers all natural moss any thoughts on this?

also since posion darts cant have to deep of water what type of filter should i use?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't use any type of filter with my ponds. I toss in some java moss or duck weed or some plant that likes water. Also there are isopods and springtails in the tank eating the debris. The water stays pretty clean. 

Go look at those build threads!


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

alright thanks again! i can get some duck weed no problem from work. and ive looked through some of them and they are amazing!!


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

one more quick question. ive not been able to find a for sure about the humidty level the tank needs to be at for darts. does anyone know?

also, which frogs can live together? ive seen all throught out the internet different info. and id hate to mix them and have something go wrong if colors matter like someone could tell me which ones to get i preferably want green, yellow, blue, red ones haha i know thats a wide range but thats the main colors i want and if someone can point me the right way id be happy


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Humidity: I think they are ok 60 percent humidity and up. Some try to keep above 80 percent. Double check this as I'm not sure. My humidity is usually between 70 and 80 percent.

Which frogs can live together: That is a loaded question, lol. Really, at this stage, only one morph per tank. No mixing of different frogs. Apparently the mixing theoretically _*can*_ be done, if one has a great deal of experience. There are issues with aggression and cross breeding (that is frowned upon because, for the most part, froggers want to keep the lines clear for future generations of frogs). So, for now, no mixing of frogs. 

Do a search on 'mixing' and read the various debates about this. 

Do you like blue frogs? If so, I recommend a pair of Azureus. They are beautiful and bold. They shouldn't be kept in groups though (again, disclaimer for those with butt loads of experience). If you want a group of frogs, I'd try Leucomelas. I have a group of 3 and love them.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

i read 70 percent the most so thats what ill go with.

and since these are my first PDF ill stay with the same morph. 

and well i like the blue and red ones the best but i want around 3 or 4 so i can have a chance of seeing them


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Hah! Well the leucs are black and yellow 

Also consider any of the many morphs of Tincs. Great frogs. Bold. They do best alone or in pairs, though.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

haha well that is true and i love them!

and hmmm so really 2 tincs, 3 leucomelas, or 2 Azureus.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Or a group of galacts. Hmm let me think. Terribilis. Auratus. Those are all ok in groups. The problem with tincs in groups is aggression.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Simply Natural Dart Frogs: Tinctorius Price List

so on there id be fine with a "Citronella" and "New River" both tincs?

haha so basically keep in species only and most of them just in pairs?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

You'd be fine with Citronella OR New River 

Not species, morphs. No mixing Citronellas and New Rivers


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

ahhh okay! haha so its really like this color dart and you only have that one color in there! that makes it simple for me now


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I know it seems boring to have 2 of the same frog in the tank. That's what I thought when I was starting out. But, when you have a beautiful pair of one morph or another, it is magical and all makes sense.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Morph is really more complicated than color, though. These frogs come from specific localities and need to be kept with frogs from the same locale. Best bet is to get both from the same breeder until you are more familiar with the different morphs and locales.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

it does make sense it just confuses me how the aquarium in the smokies has like 9 different morphs in there haha. and any idea of where to get some blue microspot Auratus because only place i found has to have a 250 dollar minimum.

and okay so the same morph got it


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Institutions have gigantic displays. Also have experienced keepers and are known to cull the offspring. So I've heard.

There are lots of beautiful morphs of Auratus! Lots and lots. One of my favorite frogs. Even between Auratus, there needs to be some separation. I don't know where to get the blue microspot except for one place I've seen them (maybe the same place), but, keep your eyes open. Lots to choose from.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

i deff will keep them open! itll maybe be a month before i get them but ill post pics when i do!


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

one more question. with a humidifier how can i make it shut off after the min it needs on let say every two hours? is there a specific timer i can use?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

stanced said:


> haha well that is true and i love them!
> 
> and hmmm so really 2 tincs, 3 leucomelas, or 2 Azureus.


If you were to ask me, I would go with Tincs or Leucs as both are considered outgoing and visible frogs. Azureus, although very pretty blue, and active/visible, are ONLY blue. So if it is a mixed colors frog you want, this isn't it(although the spotting can offset the blue...) The Tincs are nicer looking(to me...), but personality seems to always favor Leucs. It all depends on what you want to get out of your frogs. Do you want beauty, or visibility with charm? Etc, etc, etc...

JBear


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## Cam (Oct 27, 2010)

We just created a series of viv construction videos that may be helpful: 





















Part 2 certainly covers creating a water feature and 3 and four have some info on instalation  i hope it helps


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the help!! Now I just need to know about the humidifier. Oh and also would it be to have some sort of light on at night for a moonlight affect?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

You won't need a humidifier. The top (or front door depending on style of tank) should be glass with maybe a small screened section for ventilation. The water in the false bottom and the plants will keep it nice and humid. Just get a hand sprayer and give it a spray with water. I mist mine in the morning and again when I return from work.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Would a humidifer hurt? Cause I have one I bought from a friend and it'll be on the top and well I got a completely screened top should I return it and find a glass one with a small opening?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Humidifiers don't hurt. Lots of folks use them. You can get a piece of glass to put on top of the screen. Some people have even used Saran Wrap to cover the screen.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Would plexiglass work?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

stanced said:


> Would plexiglass work?


Plexi-glass is a short term fix. It will warp and not be FF tight in a short amount of time. Go with a glass piece cut at a hardware store, or cheaper and just as effective saran wrap! I use the Saran wrap method, and my humidity stays high, and that helps to keep temps stable. Best of luck!

JBear


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Anyone have a pic of how it looks with saran wrap?


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Not the best quality, I JUST ran back and took the pic!

JBear


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Ahh! Ill use saran wrap!  and would the humidity in the 80s to 90s cause mold


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Okay so I got my tank, screen (going to use saran wrap), eggcrate, substrate, humdity reader (can't remeber what its called), thermomater (not spelled right I know) and a humidifer. What else beside some plants would I need to get this set up without having anything bad happening? And when I get it set up I can add springtails right?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yes it will mold for a bit, but, then it will settle down. Frogs don't mind it and the springtails will help with it. 

You need some sort of mesh to wrap up the eggcrate to keep frogs and dirt from getting under it. I use no-see-um screen from Lowe's. I've seen people use weed blocker and also tulle from a fabric store. Also something to support the eggcrate. Most seem to use PVC connectors. Make sure to put some in the center to support the center of the eggcrate or it will sag and possibly break.

Looking forward to your build pics (hint hint, lol)


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

As long as it won't hurt the frogs id want the mold 

And I was planning to get some mesh today from lowes along with some great stuff. And don't worry they'll be build pics as soon as I get it started which hopefully will be next week!


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Would one t8 bulb on my 20 be enough light for plants? If so which ones?


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

What type of light should I run on my set up?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know 

I have fluorescent tube lights on mine. Nothing fancy. Daylight bulbs, 6500. My plants do fine but not great. Some folks have much stronger lights. Do a search on 'lights' and 'lighting' and you'll find millions of opinions on this.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

alright, and if i stepped up to a 55 or a 75 gallon viv how would my frog options go?


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## TheOregonKid (Nov 25, 2010)

stanced said:


> As long as it won't hurt the frogs id want the mold


Famous last words.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Ut oh how you mean?


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

UPDATE!!! i bought a 55 gallon tank and stand  so what are my frog options now?


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## nurse3766 (Apr 8, 2010)

frogface said:


> Hah! Well the leucs are black and yellow
> 
> Also consider any of the many morphs of Tincs. Great frogs. Bold. They do best alone or in pairs, though.


my boldest frogs and the ones who are out and active all day long are my cobalt tincs. when ever i go near the cage they will hop right over and sit and stare at me they even like the cat. anyone or thing that goes near the tank gets a visit from them.

even if im in the cage i have to scoot them away. they have zero fear of me or anything else. my leucs run if im in the cage then they hide for a couple days.
leucs were my 1st and i love them i have 4 in a 30 gallon. 

im keeping my cobalts in pairs because females can be aggressive to each other.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

So would you all go with a 4 bulb t5 or a 2 bulb t5?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I just have one bulb on each of my tanks. The plants could use better lighting but I think the frogs appreciate some dimmer spots. Some folks have pretty elaborate set ups. Just keep in mind that the lights will raise the temperature of the tank.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

If you're setting up a 55 gallon tank, I would recommend thinking about keeping a group of frogs. Some good beginner frogs that you could keep in a group would be...

Terribilis
Bicolors
Leucomelas
Vittatus
Auratus

The first three should be visible nearly all of the time. The Vittatus are considered shy as froglets but get much bolder as they get older. The Auratus you would need to investigate. Some are very shy, but some (such as Costa Rican) are usually fairly bold.

I just can't see setting up a big tank like that and only putting two frogs in it. I would want to have as many as I could comfortably house in there and I would want to make sure it was something that would be highly visible so that I would be able to enjoy all of the time.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Hmmm ill keep that in mind to about the dim spots. And by group do you mean 3 or up to let's say 6?


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

You should be fine with 6 of any of those I mentioned in a 55 gallon.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

stanced, don't confuse me for someone who knows what they're talking about. I'm still a noob myself. I don't really know if frogs like to have dim areas, it's just a supposition on my part. I figured I wouldn't want a bright light blaring on me all the time and I'd like to have shadows to hide in.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

well frogface you know more than me! and i bought a 2 bulb t8 fixture today  

and i know its not generaly advised to mixed species but the ones wendy listed if i was to try my luck with those (if anything goes wrong ill have another viv set up if i go this route) how would they fair?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Don't mix any of the ones Wendy listed


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Okay! Just making sure before I screw up!


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Oh...no, no, no! I didn't mean that you could MIX 6 of those frogs. I meant to choose one type and only one type. You could then keep 6 frogs. 

I know you want a great tank...and everyone thinks it would be so cool to have several different types in their tank. But, really....that would take a LOT of experience IF it was possible to do. You don't want to invest a lot of time and money into this and then eventually end up with several stressed out and/or dead frogs. Do the right thing for yourself and the animals. Just stick with one species/morph per tank. The healthier and happier they are...the more you'll see them....the more you'll enjoy this hobby.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Guys I got a question, will GS sitting directly in water cause any problems?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

No, it shouldn't, once it cures.


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Alright first pics will be posted tommorrow as long as it don't rain!


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## stanced (Jan 19, 2011)

Oh one more thing. How do you all hide/concel your pump power suppleys?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Some make cages with eggcrate, others hide it behind the GS. I don't have pumps or power supplies. 

Look at the construction threads for good ideas.


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