# Did I just create a new Auratus morph?



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

I've been trying to find what morphs my two auratus are so that I could sell a couple of their offspring. Well, after tracing their lineages back, I found something that surprised me. The male is a Panamanian Green and Bronze auratus, while the female is an El Cope. They have created eight hybrids. One of them had SLS, but the others seem perfectly healthy. Have El Copes and PGB's crossbred before, or have I created a new morph?


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

The can of worms has been opened. If it is 100% true that you have crossed 2 different locales/morphs, you should not sell any of their offspring and cease further production from them. This would be the responsible and morale thing to do.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Tinctoc said:


> The can of worms has been opened. If it is 100% true that you have crossed 2 different locales/morphs, you should not sell any of their offspring and cease further production from them. This would be the responsible and morale thing to do.


Okay, so what should I do with the offspring. I'm not about to euthanize healthy frogs just because they're hybrids. Should I separate the 2 adults?


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Yes separate them for the time being. It is your choice on what to do with the offpspring just make sure you remain responsible with them...not allowing them to ever produce and not passing them on to others. I personally would put them down just to ensure that their genes are not accidentally passed down, causing a pollution in subsequent collections.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes the adults should be separated.

I think this hints on a good subject of knowing the exact origins of your frogs before breeding to prevent issues such as this. This can especially be held true with auratus and the many phenotypes represented by the species and the confusion surrounding them.

There is already too much confusion as to which local is which with green populations looking similar but coming from different places, incorrect data, etc.

As far as the froglets go that is going to depend on what you consider "humane" and what is best for the frogs, the safest bet would be to euthanize them or to keep them to yourself (which in itsself creates a major risk for someone getting them down the line and something such as this continuing) 

Overall I think there are enough auratus locals out there and I don't think the hobby needs a new one 

I am glad you came here to ask questions and are planning on doing the responsible thing.

Thanks, Justin


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

If you aren't going to cull the froglets, you can look forward to caring for them for the rest of their natural lives. It wouldn't be terribly responsible to release these into the hobby, even if you label them as a cross. And yes, you should separate the adults, unless you want more hybrids taking up your space.



Phyllobates azureus said:


> Okay, so what should I do with the offspring. I'm not about to euthanize healthy frogs just because they're hybrids. Should I separate the 2 adults?


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Do you have have photos of the parents and the offspring?


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Okay, so what should I do with the offspring. I'm not about to euthanize healthy frogs just because they're hybrids. Should I separate the 2 adults?


Ruh roh. You should definitely separate the adults, otherwise you will perpetuate the problem. 

As to the offspring, I wouldn't euthanize them (personally) but rather keep them. You will want to make sure that these don't breed by splitting them up...or cull all their offspring as eggs. Not only would they be a 'hybrid' but they would also be inbred. 

Good luck.

On the positive, I'm sure they are quite pretty


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

> On the positive, I'm sure they are quite pretty


Yep, they sure are! I don't have any good pictures, but they are lime green with chocolate brown splotches. I think I'll keep them together until they're mature, and then put the males in one viv and the females in another. Would that work?


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

That would work but you have to understand the lifespan of these frogs can be up to 15 years... meaning that if you would hold on to them and not distribute them as it seems you are planning that is quite a commitment.

Justin


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Did you really just ask if you should separate?? 

I'm not going to kill healthy frogs, followed by, should i separate...

You knew the answer before you asked.

If you're not going to put them them down, you keep them forever!

Next time, know what you have, before you let breeding happen.
not after the fact...

Unreal...


Casper 







Phyllobates azureus said:


> Okay, so what should I do with the offspring. I'm not about to euthanize healthy frogs just because they're hybrids. Should I separate the 2 adults?


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

jdart16 said:


> That would work but you have to understand the lifespan of these frogs can be up to 15 years... meaning that if you would hold on to them and not distribute them as it seems you are planning that is quite a commitment.
> 
> Justin


A friend of mine has a 0.4.1 group of Alanis x Citronella that he created when he was 7 years old, before he knew about the crossbreeding problem. The hybrids are 9 years old now.

Here is a picture of one of the froglets. They are SO cute!


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Thats great your friend has kept them to himself all this time and I praise him for doing the right thing, I was just saying that it is definately something to think about as a lot can change in 15 years with many people only lasting in the hobby for a few years at a time.

Justin


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Ghost vivs said:


> Did you really just ask if you should separate??
> 
> I'm not going to kill healthy frogs, followed by, should i separate...
> 
> ...


It really isn't my fault! They were both sold to me as D. auratus (no locality specified) and El Copes and PGBS are virtually impossible to differentiate. I meant should I separate the ADULTS, not the froglets. I'm keeping the froglets and not letting them breed! I'm just about to talk to the female's previous owner again.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

I would personally euthanize them.
And definitely seperate the adults/parents.

Is not wanting to dispose of healthy crossbreeds worth the stigma & reputation that comes along with having hybrids in your collection? 
Like it or not, now that youve made it public knowledge that these exist in your collection, there are going to be some people who will never purchase from you again.
Its a sad but true reality.

Me personally, my reputation is more important to me & i wouldve did the "deed" yesterday. 

You may not have known, which i understand, but part of being a responsible breeder is knowing what kind of frogs you have BEFORE it gets to this point. Which is further shown by the fact that you didnt bother to find this information out until after the fact. 

Good Luck.


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> It really isn't my fault! They were both sold to me as D. auratus (no locality specified) and El Copes and PGBS are virtually impossible to differentiate. I meant should I separate the ADULTS, not the froglets. I'm keeping the froglets and not letting them breed! I'm just about to talk to the female's previous owner again.


This has me worried. Were they sold to you as a proven pair?


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> It really isn't my fault! They were both sold to me as D. auratus (no locality specified) and El Copes and PGBS are virtually impossible to differentiate. I meant should I separate the ADULTS, not the froglets. I'm keeping the froglets and not letting them breed! I'm just about to talk to the female's previous owner again.


What do you mean? So the person that sold them to you just simply said 
"They're D.Auratus, but i dont know what morph they are?" ... and you were ok with that?
If thats the case, then it IS your fault, bc you shouldve never bought them!


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Okay, read this carefully and yell at me later.

I just spoke to the female's previous owner and he says he made an identification mistake. He keeps mostly auratus, and he made a mistake. I still have the shipping container in and the date of hatching was 2009/06/18. He misheard me and thought I said 2008/06/19. So he's looking into the origin of the female but he thinks she's a Panamanian Green and Bronze. So there's a chance that these froglets aren't hybrids after all.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Gamble said:


> What do you mean? So the person that sold them to you just simply said
> "They're D.Auratus, but i dont know what morph they are?" ... and you were ok with that?
> If thats the case, then it IS your fault, bc you shouldve never bought them!


Please read my previous post. He thinks the offspring might not be hybrids after all because there was an admittedly stupid miscommunication over the phone as to the female's date of birth.


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

Yes it is your fault... you put them together not knowing what morph they are. And didn't try to find out what they were until you wanted to sell some.

I have an auratus that lives alone for that very reason. I think i know what morph it is, but i think and i know are 2 very different things.



Casper 




Phyllobates azureus said:


> It really isn't my fault! They were both sold to me as D. auratus (no locality specified) and El Copes and PGBS are virtually impossible to differentiate. I meant should I separate the ADULTS, not the froglets. I'm keeping the froglets and not letting them breed! I'm just about to talk to the female's previous owner again.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Seems to me he's trying to do the right thing. If he got bad info from the breeders/sellers then what else is he supposed to do? We tell people to go with what the breeder tells them a morph is. Besides, he's still pretty new to this. 

I think he should be congratulated for stepping up. There are others who would have kept it secret and unloaded the frogs on unsuspecting buyers.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Ghost vivs said:


> Yes it is your fault... you put them together not knowing what morph they are. And didn't try to find out what they were until you wanted to sell some.
> 
> I have an auratus that lives alone for that very reason. I think i know what morph it is, but i think and i know are 2 very different things.
> 
> ...


They were sold to me as D. auratus three years ago, the morph wasn't specified and I never though it was a problem until they started producing tadpoles.
They are so similar that they appear to be of the same morph.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Please read my previous post. He thinks the offspring might not be hybrids after all because there was an admittedly stupid miscommunication over the phone as to the female's date of birth.


Lets hope this is the case. I commend you for your efforts.
Hopefully, you use this experience as a learning lesson. 
ALWAYS know what you are buying ahead of time. If that information isnt available or sounds suspect, then DONT buy it.

Good Luck w/ everything. I hope it works out for the best.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Will someone please post the locale Green and Bronze Auratus are from.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> Will someone please post the locale Green and Bronze Auratus are from.


Isn't that the point? That there is no locale associated with these frogs. El Cope are locale specific animals. There are other turquoise/green and bronze frogs out there but they are not site specific. That's why they are sold as "Panamanian green and bronze". El Cope are locale specific animals and El Cope should only be bred with El Cope.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Are you saying Green and Bronze definitely are not from El Cope?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Not every green/turquoise and bronze is an El Cope. But an El Cope is a green/turquoise and bronze frog. There are many similar looking frogs that originate from that region of Panama. El Cope is a locale specific frog. One of the very few locale specific auratus morphs available. Just because a frog is green/turquoise and bronze does not make it an El Cope automatically. I would hope that anyone breeding and selling green/turquoise and bronze frogs DOES NOT label them as El Cope unless they truly are El Cope. However I have a feeling that with the current state of ethics in the hobby it is happening. I believe that many of the frogs that you see being sold as turquoise and bronze and green and bronze may be the same frog. They were just separated upon importation in to two separate group by the importer. Because of the natural variation of color the importer separated them into two bins, one for more turquoise frogs, one for more green frogs.

For those of you that are TWI members there is an excellent article in volume 3.1 of Leaf Litter that further explains the variability and morphs of D. auratus in Panama.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Jon is correct.

There have been many accounts of imports both in the U.S. and Europe being separated based on phenotype when they are in fact the same exact local (See Leaf litter Issue 3.1).

The imported auratus are separated into green and bronze, turquoise and bronze blue bronze etc when they are in fact one population. Keep in mind this may not apply to every shipment but has been done in the past.

An example could mean that one local imported in 2010 is in fact only "blue and bronze" in the wild and does not represent a diverse phenotype where as another local imported in 2008 could contain multiples phenotypes one of which matches these 2010 imports. Does these mean they can be breed together? No because they are two locals which could have very different origins but are just similar based on looks. This is why import date and knowledge of the origins of your auratus is so important.

This is also the case with "super blues" which were selected from a group of "bronze auratus" for their stunning colors.

Justin


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not every green/turquoise and bronze is an El Cope. But an El Cope is a green/turquoise and bronze frog. There are many similar looking frogs that originate from that region of Panama. El Cope is a locale specific frog. One of the very few locale specific auratus morphs available. Just because a frog is green/turquoise and bronze does not make it an El Cope automatically. I would hope that anyone breeding and selling green/turquoise and bronze frogs DOES NOT label them as El Cope unless they truly are El Cope. However I have a feeling that with the current state of ethics in the hobby it is happening. I believe that many of the frogs that you see being sold as turquoise and bronze and green and bronze may be the same frog. They were just separated upon importation in to two separate group by the importer. Because of the natural variation of color the importer separated them into two bins, one for more turquoise frogs, one for more green frogs.
> 
> For those of you that are TWI members there is an excellent article in volume 3.1 of Leaf Litter that further explains the variability and morphs of D. auratus in Panama.


This is partially because D. auratus exhibits a lot of phenotypic variation within localities. Patrick and Sasa 2009 (Revista de Biología Tropical - Phenotypic and molecular variation in the green and black poison-dart frog Dendrobates auratus (Anura: Dendrobatidae) from Costa Rica) were unable to sort frog origins using either appearance or genetics (though they didn't use the most robust genetic analyses). This is possibly partially due to people moving frogs around, in a lot of cases to increase eco-tourism by introducing populations of auratus. 

They did note that there is a difference between populations on either side of the mountains in Costa Rica.

So, based off of this, we should consider mixing 'morphs' in order to maintain natural genetic diversity (don't shoot me, I'm just playing devil's advocate!) Just some food for thought!

Adam

PS. That paper isn't a real easy read...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hmm I'll need to read Adam's citation but even if the adults are hybrids, it is not imperative to seperate the adults provided that either the eggs or the tadpoles are culled.. If you aren't producing froglets then you're not going to have an issue. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm a rookie to the hobby and this is simply my "amateur" thoughts.

If they are hybrids, then I wouldn't have the heart to "put 'em down". I love frogs, I love the hobby. Knowing what I know now, I also would be responsible enough to never allow them out of my hands and into someone else's who _could_ be irresponsible. Either separate and keep or do the very sad thing. 

One other option. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Doesn't Energy treat his beast-of-a-viv as a mixed viv and a home for orphaned hybrids? If so, could that be a potential home for them? 

Beautiful frogs. I hope that they're discovered to be non-hybrids and crisis is adverted. If they're hybrids, then they are still beautiful and hope they live happy lives in very responsible hands. I do commend you for speaking up instead of sweeping your mistakes under someone else's rug. Yes, it sounds like it was "your fault". Yes, it sounds like it was strictly an accident. Everyone makes mistakes. Everyone was new at one time. It's stepping up, owning our own mistakes/accidents, and handling them responsibly is what's important.

I wish you and the frogs the best of luck! 

-Chris


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Ed said:


> Hmm I'll need to read Adam's citation


Bum bum buuuuuuum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is immediately terrified when Ed comments after them in a thread.

Don't worry Ed, I eagerly await your intellectual smack down.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

easternversant said:


> Bum bum buuuuuuum. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is immediately terrified when Ed comments after them in a thread.
> 
> Don't worry Ed, I eagerly await your intellectual smack down.


I doubt it will come to anything even close to that.. I mainly want to read through it to see if they looked at outcrossing as a risk since in other anurans even close populations of the same species showed some negative impacts of outcrossing depression. On the theoretical side, very close genetic populations don't automatically mean that outcrossing is desirable since the small variations can be due to locally adaptive traits that are maladaptive when combined with other alleles. (for a brute force approach of this type see http://www.environmental-expert.com/Files\6063\articles\5372\LV68M29432114864.pdf) 

It is possible that some or even most are outcrossed for the reasons you mentioned but it is also possible that the negative impacts of outbreeding are being purged in the wild populations, a function that may not happen in captivity (also given that the negative effects are not always seen in the F1 generation and can take up until F5 to show). 

Ed


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

Adam - 

That's a very interesting paper. 

these stuck out to me, and should to others - 

"In Costa Rica, Dendrobates auratus exhibit moderate color pattern variation, but molecular variation, estimated with RAPD analyses, did not support the patterns of divergence observed in color types. Lack of correspondence between molecular variation and color polymorphism has been reported in other species of dendrobatids. "

and

"However, the RAPD technique assumes that only &#145;dominant&#146; markers are expressed in the gels, and that these alleles are inherited following Mendelian genetics. Since the &#145;recessive&#146; alleles do not migrate to the same position on the gel, the level of genetic diversity can be underestimated in RAPD methodology"

basically, if i'm reading that correctly, it's saying there is very little correlation between the genetic structure of said frog and it's color. Instead, it's just the phenotype.

While in the trade, people may still want to seek out specific color morphs, this is potentially implying that color morphs don't necessarily represent a difference in lineage.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

easternversant said:


> They did note that there is a difference between populations on either side of the mountains in Costa Rica.


and yet, all Costa Ricans are happily accepted as one distinct morph.


Doesn't it seem strange that everyone is saying, destroy this group because one parent has a known locale?
I definitely agreee a known El Cope should only be bred with another known El Cope. 
But to think that bringing in another G/B with no known locale to breed with the other G/B will now make the offspring legitimate seems a little strange.

or should we destroy all G/B with no known locale, including all Turquois, Micro Spot, Green Black, Green Bronze... ?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

easternversant said:


> This is partially because D. auratus exhibits a lot of phenotypic variation within localities. Patrick and Sasa 2009 (Revista de Biología Tropical - Phenotypic and molecular variation in the green and black poison-dart frog Dendrobates auratus (Anura: Dendrobatidae) from Costa Rica) were unable to sort frog origins using either appearance or genetics (though they didn't use the most robust genetic analyses). This is possibly partially due to people moving frogs around, in a lot of cases to increase eco-tourism by introducing populations of auratus.
> 
> They did note that there is a difference between populations on either side of the mountains in Costa Rica.
> 
> ...


Not that this is a big deal, but the El Cope and the Green and Bronze frogs discussed thus far are from Panama, not Costa Rica.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> and yet, all Costa Ricans are happily accepted as one distinct morph.
> 
> 
> Doesn't it seem strange that everyone is saying, destroy this group because one parent has a known locale?
> ...


I don't think anyone at all is saying destroy those frogs. But you have to realize that some "morphs" were seperated upon importation by the importer based on color alone. Now that they are split we have no idea what frogs actually came from the same population and we must keep them seperate. Who at this point in time can say if a Microspot did or didn't come from the same population as a Blue & Black auratus. Perhaps the Microspot is just a natual variation of that frog. We just don't know, until we do, it's better to split than to lump. If you lump and you're wrong, you can't go back.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Yes they are.


Tinctoc said:


> I personally would put them down just to ensure that their genes are not accidentally passed down, causing a pollution in subsequent collections.





jdart16 said:


> As far as the froglets go that is going to depend on what you consider "humane" and what is best for the frogs, the safest bet would be to euthanize them





Ghost vivs said:


> You knew the answer before you asked.
> 
> If you're not going to put them them down, you keep them forever!





Gamble said:


> I would personally euthanize them.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

I think it was in reference to this statement



Reef_Haven said:


> or should we destroy all G/B with no known locale, including all Turquois, Micro Spot, Green Black, Green Bronze... ?


Rather than these froglets which appear to be a known cross of site specific and non site specific frogs. I did not say to exterminate all unknown local frogs.

Justin


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

kitcolebay said:


> I'm a rookie to the hobby and this is simply my "amateur" thoughts.
> ...


That was very well said! 

Some folks can come across pretty harsh around here (whether they mean to or not) and I say "good on you" for coming forward for advice once you realized you made a mistake. Yes, this was preventable, but we've all made preventable mistakes and hopefully we all learn from them.

Energy's tank is awesome, and if he is still accepting frogs this would be a great home for your hybrids: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction.html


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Unfortunately for the OP, there are a lot of people that will likely not buy from him, even if he does cull the froglets. I wouldn't knowingly buy from someone who created hybrids, either on purpose, or by accident, even if they said they culled the offspring.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

give the person a break. how long has this person been in the hobbie. i admit certain auratus look similer. at least didn't breed luec with a auratus
if you wish keep your frogs together but just get rid of any eggs.
there should a sticky on the main page that says "if you cross breed don't post about it or you get your butt handed to you on a platter."
the person was honest.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

Golden State Mantellas said:


> Unfortunately for the OP, there are a lot of people that will likely not buy from him, even if he does cull the froglets. I wouldn't knowingly buy from someone who created hybrids, either on purpose, or by accident, even if they said they culled the offspring.


Seriously? So your position is that people shouldn't buy from anyone who ever makes a mistake? Your list of humans to purchase things from is going to be awfully short...

Looking at this logically you are much more likely to get what you expect to get from someone who is 100% upfront about what they have and do not have, including hybrids, when you consider the potential reaction that many have when the 'H' word gets tossed into the mix. Someone who is willing to be honest in that potential quagmire can likely be trusted to purchase from. Someone who doesn't say anything at all is more likely to be trying to pass something off.


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

Ducking for cover!!!
Oh, wait, we are already on page #5 from this post this morning!

Steve


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

Steverd said:


> Ducking for cover!!!
> Oh, wait, we are already on page #5 from this post this morning!
> 
> Steve


Like I said, can was opened!!! hahaha 
I will give the OP credit for coming here and admitting the mistake and seeking information. Unfortunately it was a little late.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

IMO I think the OP knows he made a mistake, and I think he owned up to it like an ethical, responsible frogger should. He doesn't want to destroy the froglets but rather keep them all to himself. I personally see no problem with that and I say think you to him for being so honest. Now, I do have a disdain for hybrids in general and specifically for people that create hybrids on purpose. At least he was honest, and said up front that he would never release them into the hobby. Hats off to you sir.

Sure he made a mistake, but that's just it, a mistake. I'm willing to bet the OP will never ever do anything like this again. I think he learned an important lesson, one which every new frogger and some established ones can learn from.


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## KingSnake9 (Jul 14, 2011)

They turned out to not be hybrids, he has posted on Canadart that they both are PGB's and it was just a communication error over the phone.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

YAY!!!!!!!!!!! That is good news indeed!!!! To the OP, congrats on breeding your first frogs!!!


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be an 800 lb gorilla in the room.

Why isn't every Green and Bronze with unknown locale, with the possible exception of the same import date; considered a hybrid?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

just because the locale is unknown, doesn't make them hybrids.



Reef_Haven said:


> Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be an 800 lb gorilla in the room.
> 
> Why isn't every Green and Bronze with unknown locale, with the possible exception of the same import date; considered a hybrid?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be an 800 lb gorilla in the room.
> 
> Why isn't every Green and Bronze with unknown locale, with the possible exception of the same import date; considered a hybrid?


What??? Seriously??? Perhaps you should learn, do some research before throwing up a website and selling frogs.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

KingSnake9 said:


> They turned out to not be hybrids, he has posted on Canadart that they both are PGB's and it was just a communication error over the phone.


That`s great! Now all the perfect people who never made a mistake and wanted you to kill innocent frogs can buy frogs from you now. Tell them all to kiss your ass.

John


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Reef_Haven said:


> Maybe it's just me, but there seems to be an 800 lb gorilla in the room.
> 
> Why isn't every Green and Bronze with unknown locale, with the possible exception of the same import date; considered a hybrid?


I think it is most likely due to a situation where people are trying to do the best with what they have. Could they all be mixed and are most likely some if not many? Yes, but that leaves a question of what to do with these frogs.

A similar situation with "blue and black auratus" which have never been divided by local but rather most likely represent many, the variation can be seen from older frogs which usually seem to be a lot darker then newer imports, also the slim chance that all of the blue and blacks came from one single population over all of these years.

Don't even get me started on auratus being sold as simply "green and black"

Justin


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

I'll try to reply to some varied responses in one post....hopefully you can forgive what will likely become a behemoth of a post.



Ed said:


> I doubt it will come to anything even close to that.. I mainly want to read through it to see if they looked at outcrossing as a risk since in other anurans even close populations of the same species showed some negative impacts of outcrossing depression. On the theoretical side, very close genetic populations don't automatically mean that outcrossing is desirable since the small variations can be due to locally adaptive traits that are maladaptive when combined with other alleles. (for a brute force approach of this type see http://www.environmental-expert.com/Files\6063\articles\5372\LV68M29432114864.pdf)
> 
> It is possible that some or even most are outcrossed for the reasons you mentioned but it is also possible that the negative impacts of outbreeding are being purged in the wild populations, a function that may not happen in captivity (also given that the negative effects are not always seen in the F1 generation and can take up until F5 to show).
> 
> Ed


I should clarify that they didn't really mention anything about that. Nor did they discuss implications for the pet trade. They did discuss the implications in regards to where to relocate frogs to after being caught getting smuggled out of the country, or rather, that they cannot determine where frogs should be returned to based off of appearance or genetics.



cml1287 said:


> "In Costa Rica, Dendrobates auratus exhibit moderate color pattern variation, but molecular variation, estimated with RAPD analyses, did not support the patterns of divergence observed in color types. Lack of correspondence between molecular variation and color polymorphism has been reported in other species of dendrobatids. "
> 
> and
> 
> ...


Basically, you are correct. Their study indicates that there isn't a correlation between color and genetics or color/genetics and location. As they noted, this isn't unprecedented in poison frogs though. I should note that their genetic technique doesn't seem like it would be the most rigorous, and that could be biasing the study. So those morphs, which primarily seem to come from the same locales and were split based off of appearance by importers, may have some genetic component. I don't think people would continue breeding these morphs together if they weren't at least partially 'breeding true.' But, this is just speculative on my part-I've obviously never looked at the genetics of auratus in the trade. 



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not that this is a big deal, but the El Cope and the Green and Bronze frogs discussed thus far are from Panama, not Costa Rica.


You are of course correct Mr. Jon. The auratus in the original post, which are happily no longer in question, are of Panamanian origin while the study looked at Costa Rican frogs.

Hopefully this all makes sense and I didn't stick my metaphorical internet foot in my mouth.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

easternversant said:


> Basically, you are correct. Their study indicates that there isn't a correlation between color and genetics or color/genetics and location. As they noted, this isn't unprecedented in poison frogs though. I should note that their genetic technique doesn't seem like it would be the most rigorous, and that could be biasing the study. So those morphs, which primarily seem to come from the same locales and were split based off of appearance by importers, may have some genetic component. I don't think people would continue breeding these morphs together if they weren't at least partially 'breeding true.' But, this is just speculative on my part-I've obviously never looked at the genetics of auratus in the trade.
> 
> 
> Hopefully this all makes sense and I didn't stick my metaphorical internet foot in my mouth.


One thing to consider is that they do not necessarily breed true, my "Green and Bronze" male looks very turquoise and the offspring look very blue (which may be subject to change as they age)

Of course I would suggest that if you take two phenotypically blue specimens and breed them together you will increase the rate at which blue frogs are produced, as more are bred together they may exhibit these traits more thus "breeding true" which is actually man made selection exhibiting itself.

Justin


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> What??? Seriously??? Perhaps you should learn, do some research before throwing up a website and selling frogs.



My point is Green and Bronze has been used as a generic term for at least 10 years. Noone has a problem with all "Green and Bronze" being lumped together as if they are all one and the same. 
Very few people sell their frogs as "green/bronze" import year 2004, or Shrom line, for example.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdart16 said:


> Don't even get me started on auratus being sold as simply "green and black"


There have been auratus sold as green and black since at least since the early 90s, so I'm not sure why you think it is a problem...

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Reef_Haven said:


> My point is Green and Bronze has been used as a generic term for at least 10 years. Noone has a problem with all "Green and Bronze" being lumped together as if they are all one and the same.
> Very few people sell their frogs as "green/bronze" import year 2004, or Shrom line, for example.


Some of that is due to the evolution of the hobby.. It has only be relatively recently (less than ten years) where that sort of division has been started. 

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Reef_Haven said:


> My point is Green and Bronze has been used as a generic term for at least 10 years. Noone has a problem with all "Green and Bronze" being lumped together as if they are all one and the same.
> Very few people sell their frogs as "green/bronze" import year 2004, or Shrom line, for example.


I definitely see your point, and I have stated something to that affect before. PG&B have been coming in for years and chances are they aren't all from the same population. Just like with "standard" leucs and a few others. If these frogs had turned out to be hybrids, simply treating them as PG&B would be fine IMO (provided sellers are informed). As long as they are never sold as El Cope or bred with that local, since they are site specific.


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> It really isn't my fault! They were both sold to me as D. auratus (no locality specified) and El Copes and PGBS are virtually impossible to differentiate. I meant should I separate the ADULTS, not the froglets. I'm keeping the froglets and not letting them breed! I'm just about to talk to the female's previous owner again.


Good job doing your research and finding out what you have. I remember a few weeks ago when you posted asking what morph your auratus were.

Many thousands of auratus are sold each year at pet shops, by frog flippers, at expos, and even over the Internet that are not properly or comprehensively identified. "green and black auratus" doesn't tell you much. And in your case, neither does "green and bronze." it is a difficult situation for those people ithe hobby trying to responsibly keep autatus, and you are doing a great job of doing the right thing with the situation you found yourself in. Many people would have never researched the origin of their animals and would sell the offspring as incorrectly label froglets, resulting in bad genetics being passed around in the hobby.


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Ed said:


> There have been auratus sold as green and black since at least since the early 90s, so I'm not sure why you think it is a problem...
> 
> Ed


I supposed there always will be as well, I guess my comment was more geared towards people not keeping track of or making the effort to find information on the origin of their green and blacks. Basically not asking the seller for more info or not keeping records.

Justin


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdart16 said:


> I supposed there always will be as well, I guess my comment was more geared towards people not keeping track of or making the effort to find information on the origin of their green and blacks. Basically not asking the seller for more info or not keeping records.
> 
> Justin


No problem, I was just making sure people knew that there have been some generic auratus in the hobby for a very long time... I've said it before (elsewhere) and I'll say it again, those frogs represent some significant history in the hobby amd I would have to see them go away due to the interest in the frogs with a better known history.. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> No problem, I was just making sure people knew that there have been some generic auratus in the hobby for a very long time... I've said it before (elsewhere) and I'll say it again, those frogs represent some significant history in the hobby amd I would have to see them go away due to the interest in the frogs with a better known history..
> 
> Ed


I think you hit a wrong key there, Ed. You said "I would have to see them go", but I think you meant you would hate to see them go".
I wouldn't say anything, but that one letter kind of changes the whole meaning.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Thanks for the catch Doug, yes, I intended to write hate instead of have. 


Ed


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## Steverd (Sep 4, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> IMO I think the OP knows he made a mistake, and I think he owned up to it like an ethical, responsible frogger should. He doesn't want to destroy the froglets but rather keep them all to himself..


I can understand that. I seriously can't even kill a tropical fish when I need to put it down. How could I kill a frog? Couldn't do it, I'm too weak/sensitive or something..

Steve


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

jdart16 said:


> I supposed there always will be as well, I guess my comment was more geared towards people not keeping track of or making the effort to find information on the origin of their green and blacks. Basically not asking the seller for more info or not keeping records.
> 
> Justin


Common names are not always, to be honest, appropriate. Green and black poison dart frog applies to Costa Rican, Reticulated, El Cope and some Panamanian auratus, but certainly not to Super Blue, Campana, San Felix and Hoogland auratus. Strawberry poison dart frog is good for Isla Solarte and Tortugero pumilios (heck, it's decent even for bri bri and christobal), but it's not a very good name for escudo or poppa pumilio. Golden poison dart frog is good for yellow and orange terribilis, but not for mints...Which is why it's best to sell under their binomial names AND locality, to be absolutely clear on what you're giving.

Just as an added note, "Green and black poison dart frog" would be a better common name for A. trivittata than it would be for D. auratus, don't you think?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Thanks for the catch Doug, yes, I intended to write hate instead of have.
> 
> 
> Ed


So sorry, Ed, too late. According to another thread, apparently you no longer have anything to offer the hobby. Don't feel bad. I guess I'm in the same boat as I've misspelled words, too.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> Common names are not always, to be honest, appropriate. Green and black poison dart frog applies to Costa Rican, Reticulated, El Cope and some Panamanian auratus, but certainly not to Super Blue, Campana, San Felix and Hoogland auratus. Strawberry poison dart frog is good for Isla Solarte and Tortugero pumilios (heck, it's decent even for bri bri and christobal), but it's not a very good name for escudo or poppa pumilio. Golden poison dart frog is good for yellow and orange terribilis, but not for mints...Which is why it's best to sell under their binomial names AND locality, to be absolutely clear on what you're giving.
> 
> Just as an added note, "Green and black poison dart frog" would be a better common name for A. trivittata than it would be for D. auratus, don't you think?


There is no way "Green and black" applies to an El Cope. However there are Green and black frogs that hail from Costa Rica, Panama, and Nicauragua
Please see the attaced picture of an El Cope and tell me if you see black and green.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> There is no way "Green and black" applies to an El Cope. However there are Green and black frogs that hail from Costa Rica, Panama, and Nicauragua
> Please see the attaced picture of an El Cope and tell me if you see black and green.


I see green, but no black.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

That's the problem with using a vague term like Green Black or Green Bronze. Didn't you say your El Cope had a little green tint to them?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendrobates/57718-d-auratus-el-cope-3.html#post532467
Don't get me wrong. I have no doubt yours are El Cope. 
Since there is so much variability in color and patterns within any morph, I don't think it's probable that someone can determine what locale the majority of P G/B are from, simply by looking at them. Many of the El Cope on your thread above, appear to be deep black, without a hint of bronze.
I just think people have to be willing to accept that there is a very high likelihood that many "PANAMANIAN GREEN AND BRONZE" are a mix of more than one locale. Even some El Cope may be from different locales according to your own post. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendrobates/57718-d-auratus-el-cope-4.html#post534855
Another example:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/29542-bronze-green-auratus-synonyms.html


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Reef_Haven said:


> That's the problem with using a vague term like Green Black or Green Bronze. Didn't you say your El Cope had a little green tint to them?
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/dendrobates/57718-d-auratus-el-cope-3.html#post532467
> Don't get me wrong. I have no doubt yours are El Cope.
> Since there is so much variability in color and patterns within any morph, I don't think it's probable that someone can determine what locale the majority of P G/B are from, simply by looking at them.
> ...


Kevin, "descriptive colors" are a very subjective thing. You could show the same color to two different people and one would say, green, and the other would say seafoam. Whatever the heck that means lol. El Cope's do have a natural color variation. From what I would call "turquoise" to a "turquoise with a green rather than blue tint" Again very subjective color terms. However all of the El Cope's I've seen have not looked anything like a green and black auratus. No where near that color of green. They don't even have black on them. They have bronze spots. I mean like metallic antique bronze. El Cope are El Cope and they aren't green and black auratus, and should never be confused or called green and black auratus. Yes there are green and black auratus. There are Panamanian, Costa Rican, and Nicaraguan green and black auratus. Personally those are the only ones I would keep. Not the "generic" green and black auratus. Perhaps the Panamanian G&B are a mix of locales. I would think collectively as a hobby we would have no way of ever knowing since the frogs coming from Panama are supposed to be "farm raised" which we know is really a joke. 
Perhaps some of you do see green in tha photo I posted. I don't see it that way. Maybe you need to come over and see the frogs and take my crappy camera work out of the equation


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