# Azureus and Tincs



## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Hey guys,
Before you read the rest of the thread, I need a promise to not have general "NO MIXING" responses. I have read all the threads of mixing and understand why and how it is bad. 

I have also read that azureus are extremely closely related to tincs, if not simply a tinc morph. Because of this close relation, does this mean that the two species/morphs can be housed together?

For example: can I house 2 azureus, 2 brazilian yellowhead, and 2 matechos (obviously provided I have enough space and sufficient resources, hides, etc.)

I do not plan on breeding (although I will keep the offspring if they do breed) and will definately not be selling any the offspring...i know that it pollutes the gene pool and bloodline.

Once again, please only informative answers (though they may be negative) that can help me reach a conclusion.

Thanks for the info and advice

-Jeremy


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

Azureus are tincs... Other than mixing of different morphs/locales being generally unacceptable by most of us in the hobby, Azureus females (and I think other tinc females as well) are known to be very aggressive/territorial... 

It is recommended to keep tincs as pairs (I've heard some say that a 2.1 group can work with some tincs).

If you want a variety of tincs, I'd recommend setting up enough vivariums to house each kind you want separately...

-Christian


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

Okay. So first of all, I am not trying to start a war at all. I will answer your question but I am also going to give you my opinion on the matter as well. 

First, Azureus is now recognized as a Tinc. And yes, Azureus and other Tincs can be housed together but you should have adequate space for 6 Tincs in a tank (like say 40g and above with lots of visual barriers). It can be done but needs to be monitored greatly. I would also keep the group male heavy. Like say a 4.2 or 5.1. 

Now about the statement of "I do not plan to breed but if they do I will keep the offspring". This makes me uncomfortable. There should be no way for them to raise froglets up if you do not want them to breed i.e. water pond or feature. Any eggs found in a mixed species/morph tank should be culled. Also, there should be not cocohuts with petri dishes under them if you are saying that you do not plan to breed. Cocohuts are cool, but petri dishes are only used for one thing in the hobby....breeding. 

Next, I know you understand that mixing morphs and species is not really cool in the hobby and don't intend to sell the offspring, but have you thought about what you would do if you get out of the hobby and sell the collection? Where would the frogs go then? It generally is not a good idea to even entertain the idea of mixing morphs of mature age availability to breeding sites. This is the kind of stuff that might taint your name. Remember, this is a small community and words gets around. 

I really hope you do not take my responses the wrong way. I am not about bashing people, just giving them the proper information and advice to keep them in the hobby with a good name. Good luck. Any questions feel free to PM me. 



jermajestyg said:


> Hey guys,
> Before you read the rest of the thread, I need a promise to not have general "NO MIXING" responses. I have read all the threads of mixing and understand why and how it is bad.
> 
> I have also read that azureus are extremely closely related to tincs, if not simply a tinc morph. Because of this close relation, does this mean that the two species/morphs can be housed together?
> ...


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

So its not just the no mixing argument, its because the females are aggressive in general?

WHat about getting like 6.1 or 5.2 kind of thing? Or would that just be really weird?

I really wanna make this work, but i understand the limitations and im not gonna do something that is gonna hurt or make the frogs uncomfortable.

Oh, and the habitat i'm planning is prob gonna be 6w x 2h x 2d pretty huge

Other than the tincs, if i couldnt get the different morphs together, then i was thinking a huge group of leucs cause they are (correct me if im wrong) bold, good socially, and look pretty beast.

Also, the price is not an issue, but i would love to keep it down as much as possible. I want to get "a lot" of frogs for the enclosure like 10 or so (tell me if thats impossible or if i should have more or less). I figured that if i buy a large group of leucs from a breeder online or at an expo i could get a pretty big discount, but buying all the different morphs of tincs could get really expensive and i might not get as large of a discount.

THanks again

-Jeremy


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

Leucs or Auratus would be an excellent choice. As far as a big group of Tincs, I would just get all males. But even then I would closely watch the behavior. It is pretty eassy to notice if a frog is being bullied or getting stressed out. That tank will be huge and seems fine for that big of a group of frogs. I would definitely recomment Leucs. Great group frog, breeding is okay if all the same type, cool call, and you don't have to worry about aggression. Plus, it is a great display frog since it is easy to spot in the tank. 



jermajestyg said:


> So its not just the no mixing argument, its because the females are aggressive in general?
> 
> WHat about getting like 6.1 or 5.2 kind of thing? Or would that just be really weird?
> 
> ...


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm glad to see this thread stay relevant...

If you want a beastly, social, and bold frog, you might want to consider terribilis. They are all of the above, much larger, and they can eat smaller crickets. And there's a couple different colors/morphs if that's what you have your heart set on doing. Leucs are a good frog too, but my vote would be terribilis.

And I second (or third by now) that the tincs will more than likely be too aggressive.


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Terribilis are great, but don't forget about bicolors and the other phyllobates species.


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## Redhead87xc (Jan 27, 2010)

I think Terribilis and the other Phyllos would be great but just keep in mind that they can be pricy if you buy them as adults. I believe the OP wanted something on the less expensive end. Otherwise, I would go with a big group of Terribilis. That would be a really cool display tank.


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Yea so i looked at the terribilis and they are a little bit more expensive than i was looking for, but if i find a breeder that would give me a pretty big discount for buying a lot at one time (prob like 15) or so...for that huge display imma have pretty soon.

Also, one last hope for the tincs....would it be "OK" if i was able to insure that they were all males? Still having different morphs, but then there would be no possiblity of breeding and i could sell them off if needed without tainting the bloodlines/genes.

I dont know how hard it would be to ensure that all the frogs were males, but do you guys think it would be possible?? If this won't work, then i think imma give up on the azur/tinc idea.

SO now its about down to leucs, azur (pure), or terribs..
You guys have told me that all of them are pretty bold and obviously they are all colorful and gorgeous.
Are there any special pros/cons to each one? other than just personal choice??

Oh and another question, im hoping to finish my mini-zoo (the darts are only one part of the 20' x 4' wall of tanks) this summer, before august 11 so i can go to the reptile super show in LA.
Do you know if any dart breeders will be there? Or if my promise to buy so many frogs wil bring anyone out??
Just hoping to get some great deals and great frogs, lizards, and snakes

Oh, and thanks to everyone to keeping it positive and all the info,

-Jeremy


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

In a tank that size, a large group of frogs would be beast! Leucs would be my first choice. Terribilis would be awesome too, but I have three cons about them: 

*1: The price.* 
A Terrib froglet would probably cost you between $60-$120 each (depending on the color) without any discount, whereas a Leucomelas froglet would cost you maybe $25-$40 each without any discount.

*2: The size.*. 
With Terribilis being one of the largest poison dart frogs, you would have to settle with a smaller group, because they each require more space then leucs. Leucomelas could easily have a larger group, for two reasons. one is they are smaller then terribs, and the other I will discuss below. 

*3: The behavior.*
Terribilis are mainly terrestrial, however, they might climb a little, just not as much as leucs. Leucs are semi-arboreal so they will use all of the space they can. Hence a bigger tank for the leucs because they could use more of it's space then the terribs. It also means you can have a larger group, because there is more space readily available, as long as there are plenty of visual barriers. 

Without a doubt, terribs are great, but for the conditions you want, leucs would be best. With leucs, I wouldn't get a group smaller then 15 because the ten-gallon per dart rule should still be in play, and then would be a nice sized group for a 180 gallon tank (at least I think it is. it seemed to fit the dimensions) with room to spare.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

The P.Vittatus is also a frog to consider.

They are smaller, so you could keep a good sized group of them.
They are a good group frog.
Their prices are fairly low compared to others,
And they have a great call and are easy to breed.

A 2nd frog to consider too is E.Anthonyi "Santa Isabel".


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Gamble said:


> The P.Vittatus is also a frog to consider.
> 
> They are smaller, so you could keep a good sized group of them.
> They are a good group frog.
> ...


Vittatus would work too, but they are not as easily seen in the vivarium.


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## frograck (May 1, 2005)

Phyllobates Bicolor are great frogs, similar to terribilis but a bit smaller, bold as all get out, a nice call, social, brightly colored, and COST LESS than terribilis. I've seen froglets in the classifieds recently for $35 each.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

frog dude said:


> Vittatus would work too, but they are not as easily seen in the vivarium.


That all depends on the tank.

With lots of leaf litter and plant cover, they will be more bold.

My male is visible through out most of the day and literally calls nonstop all day.


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

I like the vittati (yea, my plural form haha) but i was wondering if i could find someone who breeds enough of them for me to get that many frogs at a discount. Also i think that the leucs and azurs have cooler coloration and apparently bolder.

Honestly, i just dont like the look of the anthonyi santa isabels haha

The bicolors are pretty cool, but still likin the colors of leucs and azurs better...unless the bicolors would end up being cheaper??

I love all the suggestions!

-Jeremy


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## jermajestyg (Jan 28, 2012)

Oh yea, also, if i got like 15-20 leucs, could i start breeding them?? ill read up a lot more about tads and breeding cause i have no clue how it works haha


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

jermajestyg said:


> Yea so i looked at the terribilis and they are a little bit more expensive than i was looking for, but if i find a breeder that would give me a pretty big discount for buying a lot at one time (prob like 15) or so...for that huge display imma have pretty soon.
> 
> Also, one last hope for the tincs....would it be "OK" if i was able to insure that they were all males? Still having different morphs, but then there would be no possiblity of breeding and i could sell them off if needed without tainting the bloodlines/genes.
> 
> ...


From what I've heard the LA show is the biggest show in the world. I hope to go one day. I'm sure there will be dart breeders there. 
Just my two cents. 
Buddy

2.2 bassleri 2.3 E.A Santa Isabella 1.1 tinctorious Patricia 0.1 Green Sipplewini 0.0.3 Leucs


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