# sex my el dorados!



## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Got these as a possible pair. They are a little over a year old. Both are fat and healthy.

Possible female
















Possible male









Sorry for the crappy pictures. They were the best i could get before putting them in QT.
Thanks for any help!
James


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

No takers? If i need better pictures let me know what to shoot for. I can tell you the possible female has a fuller rounded shape while the male has a more defined frame with a big fat belly.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'd say that is a good guess but pums can be really hard to sex. Wait and see which one the eggs come out of


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogface said:


> I'd say that is a good guess but pums can be really hard to sex. Wait and see which one the eggs come out of


Haha. Thanks. Im hoping to hear some calling but theyve only been in their temp tank a few days. One thing that makes me believe they are a pair is theyve lived together for over a year. Arent pumilio notoriously aggressive towards same sex tank mates? Or is that just when there is breeding opportunities? Im pretty sure if theyre not a pair then they are 2 females. Simply based on girth. Thanks kris for the insight and thanks to anyone else with any input.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Do you know how old they are?

eta: never mind I see you already said they are over a year.

I think you should hear some calling from the male. I've had them start calling as young as 5 months. From what I understand, the females take longer to mature, but, at a year old they should be able to breed. Is it possible that they are 2 females? Perhaps not as aggressive if there is no male present? One looks awfully fat compared to the other. Sex difference vs one of them hogging the food?


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

In person they are about equal in fatness; but one has a full body roundness while the other has a big round belly but still a defined angular shape. No calling but they did recently move. Ill play some calls after they acclimate and see if that incites any response.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

My El Dorados respond quickly to recorded calls. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Could you post the source of your recorded call? I tried the ones from mistking last night with no response. Is it possible to successfully house a female heavy trio of pumilio? Ive hear male pums tend to call pretty readily in the presence of a female but none here yet. Maybe i have both or just a shy male. Well, how loud is your el dorados call? Is it pretty audible from across a room or pretty soft? Thanks for the help kris. Yet again haha.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Well I have my computer in the frog room. So, I just find Pum calls on YouTube and turn up the volume. The calls are loud enough for me to hear them on the other side of the house. My house is small.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Ha. Small house here too. Ill have the wife keep an ear out while im at work, but im sure our hellspawn (3 year old boy) running around like a crazy person will probably keep em quiet. Ive noticed mine come out after lights out, are yours like this or were they at some point? Id love to see pics of their enclosure if you have them.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

papajuggalo said:


> Ha. Small house here too. Ill have the wife keep an ear out while im at work, but im sure our hellspawn (3 year old boy) running around like a crazy person will probably keep em quiet. Ive noticed mine come out after lights out, are yours like this or were they at some point? Id love to see pics of their enclosure if you have them.


Lol, you ever been to a rainforest? Like others have said before me, pumilio (and oophaga in general) are difficult to sex. Have you looked at their their throats? Males have a dark spot there if they have been calling. Best of luck with them.

D


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Dendroguy said:


> Lol, you ever been to a rainforest? Like others have said before me, pumilio (and oophaga in general) are difficult to sex. Have you looked at their their throats? Males have a dark spot there if they have been calling. Best of luck with them.
> 
> D


You know just since ive gotten into darts i realized that alot of those "birds" you dont see but can hear in the rainforest are actually frogs.
I didnt know about the throat thing. Thats very interesting. I will look for that next time i have a chance. Thanks for the tip!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Mine are most active (vocal) early in the morning and in the evening after lights out.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I came home for lunch today and tried a call i found on youtube. Its about 20 minutes after lights on, their QT tank recieves ambient light from their future tank. I think it may be a little cold for them to be very active, 66°, i turned on the heater. I played the call for about 15 minutes with no response at all. Would the calling elicit a response from the females causing aggression? If neither of the frogs have called then to my knowledge this would be the first time theyve heard it. As far as ive gathered from reading about pums is that females tend to be pretty aggressive towards each other. Does this hold true with you experienced keepers? Im thinking it may be temps, could that be the culprit? Day temps have been in the low 70s as it doesnt have a fixture on it. Night temps in the mid 60s (all we have is space heaters). Im trying to give all the info i can to try and help. If you all think its worth it i can put them in a cup and take comparison photos but if it isnt worth the stress i wont do it. 

Thanks a million
James


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I witnessed my female chasing and being chased by aging froglets in her tank.


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

You cant rely on body shape to distinguish a male or female pumilio. Females are not usually too aggressive towards each other-at least in my opinion,but males can be very aggressive to each other.If no calling is observed by the time they are over a year old,you might have 2 females.Be patient,keep humidity up,temps 74-76 by day,68-70 at night.If you need a male,it should not be too hard to find,they are very prolific for a pumilio,and are being kept by many froggers.Good luck.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I would try separating them, misting heavily and playing lots of recorded calls. See if you can get a male to call back. It's possible they won't call when you are right up in their face for the first time, so maybe set the recorded call on a loop and leave the room for awhile to try to encourage them if they are shy. 
Like someone else said, next time one is on the glass, check for a dark patch on their throat, it's common for the vocal sacs of males to becomes discolored a bit from calling frequently.
Bryan


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

They seem to be acclimating well, they are coming out more often, but bolt when they see us. Ill keep trying calls and heavy misting to see what happens. Would adding a few deposition spots help? I have them in a 5.5g sterlite with some cuttings, a monkey ladder, and lots of leaf litter. Does lack of deposition sites prevent males from calling? Im realizing theres alot about pumilio breeding that i dont know haha. Glad i have the rest of their care down. Thanks to all for the helpful input.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

How long have you had them now? I realize that just because you posted the thread yesterday dosnt mean you've only had them one day. Just asking. I recently bought a "proven" trio of Leucs, and it wasnt until a month later that I FINALLY heard the male call for the first time. He still only calls right at lights on, and lights off. For a few weeks, I was starting to wonder whether or not I actually had a male in there.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

CAPTAIN RON said:


> You cant rely on body shape to distinguish a male or female pumilio. Females are not usually too aggressive towards each other-at least in my opinion,but males can be very aggressive to each other.If no calling is observed by the time they are over a year old,you might have 2 females.Be patient,keep humidity up,temps 74-76 by day,68-70 at night.If you need a male,it should not be too hard to find,they are very prolific for a pumilio,and are being kept by many froggers.Good luck.


True, my male is almost globular while the female is much more...fit. In other words the male needs to stop munchin' on bean beetles and eat some springs every once in a while. My pair usually courts after a misting and a nice feeding in that order.

D


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I have only had them since friday. My understanding of pumilio is the male will call quite readily in a new enclosure with a female. These 2 have been living together for at least a year before i got them, so i thought we would see some form of response to calls male or not. They could need more acclimation time. They come out when the lights are very dim and the house is quiet (a rare occurance). Once they are out they dont shy away much, but stay close to big pockets in the leaf litter. Ill give them time and relaxation and well see what happens.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

What's your enclosure like? All my pumilio have a canopy layer that blocks most of the light to the leaf litter. Because of this every pair I have called within the first 20 minutes of getting to their new viv.

D


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I have them in a 5.5g sterlite for quarantine. It has about 3 inches of oak leaf litter, a few plant cuttings and a monkey ladder. They dont have a direct light over the enclosure just ambient light from the room and their adjacent future tank. There are no deposition spots in the sterlite but i may add some film cans today after work. Their perm. Tank is a 20g vert, clay substrate (on order), a few medium broms and quite a bit of climbing plants. Only using a few terrestrials to free up foraging space. Any suggestions would be great! Im trying to give these guys a long term happy home so any changes that should be made will help. Thanks everyone! Hopefully the possible male will warm up and sing us a song soon!


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Well its looking like 2 females. Still no calling and i checked for a dark spot and neither has one.  

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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I would think they would have called by now.I have picked up probable females at some local meets or from friends that were calling before they passed the threshold of my house often in the car ride home.Don't worry I'll hook you up


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Think you may wanna update this thread bubba


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> Think you may wanna update this thread bubba


Oh yea?? Let's hear it!


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Awww man... It was the el cope male that started calling, not the el dorado . I wish the el dorado started calling. It still looks like 2 females, both fat as hell and silent.
Sorry for the confusion. 

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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Blah

Well you should be able to buy or trade a male pretty easily. I'm frog sitting for a trio of El Dorados that appears to be 3 males. I'll let him know you might be in the market for a buy or trade. 

eta: Before you give up, try housing them separately and see if they call. Sometimes they don't call with males together but will call if males are separated. Could be 2 males or 2 females. You'll want to sort that out.


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