# To recomend vitamins and supplements



## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

What vitamins and supplements recommend for the frogs?, I use Dendrocare


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Ive always used Repcal and Herptivite.


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

But mixed??


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

These two threads should help:
http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25465
http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12696


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

More thanks defaced, the last question, where I can buy folic acid and Nekton E and B ?? in a bird shops??


Sorry for my english, i´m spanish


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

You don't need either of those, but if you would like to get them, send Dave (Ed's Fly Meat) a PM or email and ask him where he got his. 

Are you in the US or a different country?


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

I live in Spain, this is the problem... I´ll try to get it in my country.

I´ve read parts of link, I didn´t know that A vitamin is poisoning for the frogs and I would like to know because the people don´t use Dendrocare...this suplement has A vitamin in his composition?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I think I understand your question. Herptivite does not use Vit A. Instead it has beta carotene in it when the body then uses to make Vit A as needed. Here is the label for Herptivite.


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanx faced, I look that to using Dendrocare I can get problems in my animals


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## DizzyD (Sep 19, 2006)

Nelcadiz, mi espanol es de mierda, para escuhen a defaced, el sabe que habla. Esta muy, muy inteligente. Uno mas tiempo, mi espanol esta muy mal.


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Drizz, I understand you very good. 
I hope to try this supplements in ESPAÑA XD, if I can´t, then I´ll visit Ed´s web for the sending to Spain.

Thanks to both again :wink:, this is good and nice forum about dendrobats


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Actually, I'd recomend checking out dendroworld.co.uk rather than trying to get stuff from a US retailer. There are a couple of different suppliments used in Europe that are not used in the USA for various reasons (a lot of it being how expensive they are to ship here) that you may more easily, and for less money, get shipping to you. The other forum is based in the UK, and would give you better information on what is available near you.


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

I thought that this´ll be difficult to try, but... I don´t know that calcium supplements and multivitamins to buy for the frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vitamin A in and of itself is not bad. Ideally you want the supplement to have a ratio of A to D3 to E as close to 10:1:0.1 as possible. Its only when vitamin A as retinol gets outside these levels that problems can occur (and the further away from these ratios the greater the risk). 

In addition, some vitamin A as retinol is probably a benefit as some anurans appear to have problems converting beta carotene to retinol. 

Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Then, the A vitamin is dangerous only in excess...???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes vitamin A as retinol (some supplements use beta carotene instead of retinol or in combination with retinol) is only a problem when supplied in excess. 
Vitamin A supplied as beta carotene is non-toxic even in very large amounts as the body normally only converts what is needed to retinol (however note some toads appear to have issues with converting beta carotene to retinol). 

Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Ok. 
Now, since I can´t try Repcal Calcium and Herptivite beacuse it hasn´t distributors in Europe, I have thought to buy Nekton rep-color and Nekton MSA A, it´s a good alternative to change for repcal calcium and herptivite?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I can't answer that without seeing an analysis of the products.. 

Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Jeje, I saw webs and I found Nekton MSA A 

_A special calcium supplement plus other macro and vital trace elements and boosted by vitamin D3 to help rear young animals and treat calcium deficiencies.

Mineral elements are extremely important for maintaining good health, top stamina and uninterrupted propagation. Minerals and trace elements are essential, in fact, vital substances for an animal's metabolism. As they are repeatedly secreted unchanged by the body, they must be replenished constantly by means of the diet.

Promotes bone and teeth growth. 
Maintains every metabolic process. 

Contains all the important mineral elements_

. About Nekton I could not find the composition of Nekton repcolor, I found this only:

_The same formula of important vitamins such as vitamin A and D3, essential amino acids and vital mineral elements for good health and condition plus the carotenoids Canthaxanthin and Apocarotinal. 

NEKTON-REP-COLOR is also in a position to prevent many deficiencies and thus help avoid health disorders. 

Canthaxanthin and Apocarotinal (apo-8-carotenoic acid ethyl ester) are carotenoids, an important group of natural reddish/yellow pigments widely distributed in plants, as in tomatoes, carrots or oranges. Many carotenoids are precursors of vitamin A, that is, they develop certain vitamin A qualities in the body. This means they have a beneficial physiological value as well as enhancing colours or reviving pale and faded colours to their former beauty. 

The carotenoids in NEKTON-REP-COLOR have been produced synthetically but are nevertheless identical to those the animals would find in their diet in the wild and therefore safe. _

I have found other multivitamins

Reptivite:
This vitaminic complex contains: 
VITAMINS: A vitamin, D3, E, C, fólic acid, B1 Vitamin, B2, B6, B12, Biotina, 
MINERAL pantoténic Acid and Niacín: calcium, phosphorus, iodine, iron, magnesium, receive, manganese, sodium, zinc and potassium 
AMINO ACIDS: L-glutamina, L-arginina, isoleucina, lisina, L-leucina, L-alanina, L-cistina, L-fenilalanina, L-serina, L-treonina, L-triptofano, L-tirosina, L-valina, glicina, L-metionina, aspártico L-acid, glutámico L-acid and L-histidina

Eurozoo Repvit plus:

_Repvit plus was developed after newest scientific research particularly for insect-eating reptiles and amphibians. The Beigabe of vitamin A in Repvit plus was limited to the priority of the beta Carotin, since vitamin A promotes on the one hand the formation of body and mucous membranes, however on the other hand a long-term overdosing is extremely harmful and the life span over up to 40 % shortened. Repvit plus supplies your Terrarientiere with all vitally necessary vitaminen, minerals, trace elements and amino acids._

What do yo think? what combination would be similar to repcal calcium and herptivite?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

you need to review the analysis listing the make up. What you want is a ratio of A (as retinol) to D3 to E of 10:1:0.1 and to make sure that the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is between 1 and 2 (as close to 1.5 to 1 being close to ideal). 

The ingredient lists you have don't help at all. 


Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Sorry, but I don´t understand the ratio A: D3:E... where I must watch that?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You have to look at how much vitamin A, D3 and E are listed on the labels and figure out the ratio between them. 
The vitamin A, D3 and E should be in a ratio of 10:1:0.1 

Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

I find this supplement, is Dendrocare










It has 450000 IE vitamin A
120000IE vitamin D3
10200mg vitamin E


The ratio that you say is in grames??


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

I don't think that suppliment has the ratios Ed is stating. Here's my stab at it but I could be wrong...

Ratios themselves are dimensionless. The only requirement is that the things you're taking the ratio of, be in the same units. In this case the units are IE and mg. The IE needs to be converted to mg in order to take the ratio of them. IE is the same as IU and the conversion factors I've seen are:
1 IU of vit A = .0003mg
1 IU of vit D3 = .000025mg

Therefore:
Vit A: 450000IE(IU) = 135mg/kg
Vit D3: 120000IE(IU) = 3mg/kg
Vit E: 10200mg/kg(This seems really high???)

So for example, the ratio of Vit A to D is 135/3 or 45:1 where as Ed's stated desired ratio is 10:1. 

Anyway, this is the process for checking ratios. I'm not sure the conversion factors are correct though. Ed and/or others will likely correct my complete SWAG at it.  

EricG.NH


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Close... 

The units you want to compare are the IU units as these are considered units of biological activity. The ratios when you look at it that way are 
vitamin A to D3 3.75:1
vitamin A to E (I'm assuming that the label is a misprint and should be in IU) 44:1

However if you look at the ratio of D3 to E (12:1) you will get a ratio close to 1:0.1. 

In this case you also should read the ingredients label to determine if the vitamin A is being provided as retinol or beta carotene. If it is being supplied as beta carotene then the ratio between A and D3 can be outside of the range as beta carotene and D3 do not compete for uptake (although D3 and E still do). 

Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

:shock: , I´m lost  . How you calculate the ratios? This´s dificult for me.


Other suplement, Reptivite (bottle 56.7gr) :

vit A :220,264 IU per Kg
D3 22, 9 IU per Kg
E: 220 I.U per Kg

Which suplement (Dendrocare or Reptivite) have the ratio similar to 10:1:0.1??


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

vit A = 450000 IU
vit D3 = 120000 IU
vit E = 10200 IU

1.) A3 = 450000:120000 = 3.75:1

2.) D3:E = 120000:10200 = 12:1 or 1:0.08

Combining 1 and 2 you get:

A3:E = 3.75:1:0.08

But Ed also stated...



> In this case you also should read the ingredients label to determine if the vitamin A is being provided as retinol or beta carotene. If it is being supplied as beta carotene then the ratio between A and D3 can be outside of the range as beta carotene and D3 do not compete for uptake (although D3 and E still do).


For the Reptivite

A3:E = 220264:22900:220 = 10:1:0.01

Did I do it right???

EricG.NH


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanks for the lesson  , then Reptivite is most similar about the ratio 10:1:0.1 that Dendrocare, right?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yep you got it right. 

Ed


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Yep you got it right.


Yeeaaahhh Boooy! LOL

So now what? Neither one of those two suppliments meets the ratios. 
Get them both and alternate?

EricG.NH


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It depends on the source of vitamin A.... if it is from beta carotene then the differences in the ratios isn't a concern.... 

otherwise alternating them is a viable option. 

Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

but, I wouldn´t know the source of vitamin A, because in the label says only "vitamin A .....,vitamin E.... etc..."
In any case, what is better, Reptivite or Dendrocare?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Without knowing the source of the vitamin A, I would suggest using the reptivite or depending on how often you feed alternating them. 

Ed


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Aside from the vit A, what about the lower amount of vit E in the Reptivite? It's an order of magnitude less than the golden ratios.

EricG.NH


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sorry my mistake. When I looked at the numbers I didn't catch the decimal being off one spot because the first two numbers were correct. 


Ed


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

then, what´s bad?there is some mistake?


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

If you can only buy one, then use the Dendrocare, IMO. Otherwise, buy both and alternate.

You'll also need to make sure that you have the Calcium and Phosporus suppliments covered as well.

EricG.NH


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

Ok, the calcium supplement is Nekton MSA A, it has calcium and vitamin D3, but why Dendrocare is better than Reptivite? reptivite is more similar at the ratio 10:1:0.1 than Dendrocare


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

This is interesting - because there have been a number of bad experiences with Dendrocare (check the archives) - but who knows what the true cause of the bad experience was (even poor storage?). I have been exclusively using Reptivite since I started the hobby - mainly because of the bad things I heard about Dendrocare - and the fact that it was the most highly recommended for the other herps I was working with. 

Maybe it is time to alternate between Dendrocare and Herptivite.

Another thing I have noticed - is that while I have been using Rep-cal Calcium with D3 for feeding - it isn't as fine as some of the other calcium powders - and doesn't seem to stick as well. A while back I was given the suggestion of dusting flies before seeding new cultures to suffocated any mites the flies could have on them. I found that the Repcal wasn't sticking as well, but that Jurassical (Jurassipet) was much finer and was more efficient at coating the flies. However, Jurassical doesn't contain D3. Is there a finer Cal/D3 powder available then Rep-cal?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I recently added Dendrocare to my vitamin rotation. I feed every other day and dust in with the following:
Herptivite
Repcal mixed with naturose
dendrocare 

So far this has been fine, dendrocare is a good bit finer than both Herptivite and Repcal, but that also means you seem to use more of it.

I have also thought about using another calcium mix.


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## nelcadiz (Jun 27, 2007)

then and finally, what supplements you would use, Dendrocare or Reptivite? (you should remember that I live in Spain and I can´t buy Repcal calcium and herptivite)


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## B&Y (Mar 10, 2007)

Rozdaboff,
This may help you out because I was having the same issue with the calcium not sticking. I bought a porcelain Mortar & Pestle for about $4.00. I add my vitamin and calcium supplements to the pestel, then just grind it up so it becomes very powdery. It makes a HUGE difference and is much better at sticking to the FF's.

B&Y


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