# Flying with PDFs...Yes or No?



## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I will be visiting Washington state and coming back on March 1st. On the way back, I will be transporting PDFs. I am flying Southwest Airlines and I'm wondering if I am going to have a problem. As suggested, I am not going to carry anything metal in the carry-on bag to bring attention to the frogs. Does anyone have any experience with this?

TIA,


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Well, I just called the airline and they said that the frogs will not make it through security! YIKES...now what?


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Set-up your own shipping. Call SW again and see if you can check them or see if there is a SW Cargo and see what they can come up with. If you box them up real well and can get them shipped on the the same flight you just pick them up at cargo. I've done this in the past with USAir. It's a pain but it worked well.
Mike


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Well, their policy might be an issue:



> Southwest Airlines does not accept live animals in the aircraft cabin or cargo compartment other than fully trained service animals accompanying a person with a disability or being delivered to a person with a disability.


Unless you can convince them its a seeing-eye-frog 

Air Tran who is probably one of their closest competitors has this policy:



> We accept small, domesticated pets that will fit in an approved carrier under the seat. This would mean no larger than 10" high X 11" long X 20" wide. The weight of the pet plus carrier cannot exceed 15 pounds or roughly 7 kilos.
> 
> Airfare for a pet is $65 one-way.


I think the paying to ship FedEX, DHL, etc., is probably worth it. If you are planning on bringing the animals through anyway, you could encounter all sorts of bad situations if they aren't registered with the airline and you certainly don't want them getting run through the x-ray machine.

I wouldn't try to bring the animals through and skirt the rules as you could run into all sorts of fines, impounding of the animals, etc. Maybe, I'm just old and paranoid now. When I was younger and a little wild, I tried that through an international airport and got the animal all the way through but it had to go through the x-ray machine which ended up killing the animal months later from radiation sickness (I think). I still feel terrible about that 20 years later.

I'm guessing most other airlines also charge a fee to bring pets which would make shipping the most viable option or finding an airline that allows pets.

$0.02

Marcos


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I've travelled on SWA a number of times - with frogs.

It's *never* easy - but you can do it. The key term you need to remember is "Don't ask, don't tell." ... and yes, we're still talking frogs here.

You pack them as well as you can in your carry on bag. Ideally you use something a little more stout than a deli cup (think of the disposable tupperware type stuff there is now). Pack them as you would to ship. Then line your bag with either your clothes or towels and pack the frogs in the middle of all this - as level as you can get them.

I bought a catering travel bag awhile back. It looks *just* like an overnight type bag - but it is insulated. That helps with temps and it also helps bc/ the insulation acts as padding.

I just send the bag through security wo/ saying a word. No problems at all. 

Yet.

s

[edit: i just read marcos note - I've sent dozens (probably closer to 75) frogs through XRay machines with nary a problem. Lots of breeding from them also.]


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

I think they have turned down the amount of X-Rays in the machines since by one international reptile adventure several decades ago. I think a lot of the imaging done by the computers allows them to ratchet down the dosage.

Scott, let me know if you develop any Godzilla frogs :wink:

I'm probably just overly paranoid since my last job was in the personnel, industrial, and physical security field where I was paid to trust no one.

Marcos


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Thanks for the quick response guys!

I am going to follow Scott's advice and have my parents there for back up. If security spots the PDFs, I'll play dumb and say that I had no clue there was such a policy and very humbly pass off the frogs to my parents to ship that day! Wish me luck.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

If you timed everytihing right, You could use a "hold at" an overnight carrier, ship it to the office nearest to the airport, then you could just pick them up on the way home.
I've never tried it, but I don't see why it wouldn't work.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

One other key point, well, maybe two.

The guys that do the security screening *do not know* the airlines rules/regulations (for the most part) - they just know the federal regulations. And federal regulations say nothing about carry on frogs. They are just looking for weapons/drugs and "dangerous" things. I know of plenty of examples where people "declared" their frogs at security. Have them searched (looked at). Then pack up and go to the gate - none the worse for wear. I believe Jutti Marsh normally does this.

I *never* do that. I always stealth carry.

If for some reason you get asked, by anyone at all, what type of frogs they are... they are *harmless tropical frogs*. They are not *poison dart* frogs. 

s


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

"Sir they're harmless... 8) ...they wouldn't even harm a fly!" :lol: 

Seriously though, thanks for the advice Scott.



Scott said:


> They are not *poison dart* frogs.
> 
> s


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Well that was easier than I thought...I guess security has more important things to be searching for! They did not even look my way. I followed Scott's advice and did not keep anything metal in my carry-on; just clothes, frogs and tadpoles. :wink:


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## acleverusername (Feb 28, 2005)

I don't know if pdfs would be treated the same as turtles, but last year I took a small turtle in a deli dish on an airplane. I did not put it in my carry-on, I just walked through the metal detector holding it. I don't think anybody even realized what was in the dish. On the airplane, I just held it close to me the whole trip.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2005)

My question is, did they put your carry on through an X-Ray machine?


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Yes.



Navaros said:


> My question is, did they put your carry on through an X-Ray machine?


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2005)

Do you think that will be a factor later on? I have heard some bad things about the possibilites of the radiation exposure.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Scott said:


> [edit: i just read marcos note - I've sent dozens (probably closer to 75) frogs through XRay machines with nary a problem. Lots of breeding from them also.]


Many of the most prominent Pacific NW breeders have done it without a problem many generations through.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2005)

That's really food to hear, especially with all the awesome frogs you picked up. I am very jealous!


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

For what its worth:

An article on pets and x-rays:
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q549.html

Another interesting issue is if the shippers, UPS, etc., start to x-ray packages. There is some talk that USPS may start doing just that:
http://www.vividlight.com/articles/1211.htm

Marcos


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2005)

Thanks for the links.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Considering that tens of thousands of people get x-rays done every day with no ill effects, I don't think we have much to worry about.


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2005)

That is true, but then you have to consider those people getting X-Rays have to wear lead vests over their genitals and pregnant women can't get them. Also, frogs are much lower animals than humans, and mush less hardy. I am most interested to see how the tads/eggs turn out. I am sure they will all be fine though due to the minimal exposure.


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## Jace King (May 5, 2004)

I say if all else fails there is always good ole smuggling. Many things have been smuggled, why not give frogs a shot. Just dont wear your turbin and leave your weapons of mass destruction in the car. This could be takin seriously or not, but if i had to do it i would.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Arklier said:


> Considering that tens of thousands of people get x-rays done every day with no ill effects, I don't think we have much to worry about.


I have to agree with Navaros, that this is not the best basis for making a decision, but I think you are right in that it might not pose a threat. Here are the numbers I could find:

Maximum yearly exposure for adult (whichever is less): 5 rem whole or 50 rems deep or committed dose
For children it is: 10% of that or .5 and 5 rems
For pregnant women: .5 rem over the course of the pregnancy

Here is the only reference I could find easily for the amount in airport machines .15 to .17 milirad (1 milirad can be converted to 1 milirem; I also found a reference that the scanners used by TSA max at 3 rem/hr, which would makes the .15 and .17 figures make sense for the duration of time the bag is under exposure). So, on the high end that is .00017 rem which is orders of magnitude lower than even the standard for pregnant women. Granted the frogs could still be juveniles and in general more sensitive to radiation, but it seems that these are still very small numbers. I think you are probably safe, but I'm no radiologist.

Best,

Marcos

References:
http://cerhr.niehs.nih.gov/genpub/topic ... -ccae.html
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-colle ... r/part020/
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q549.html
http://www.orau.gov/reacts/measure.htm
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q3142.html
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/airport ... html#xray5


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## bgexotics (Feb 24, 2004)

Well my husband was able to smuggle a RETF on Southwest airlines last week. Like someone stated before, the security people don't regulate for individual airlines, so all they care is that you don't have any weapons or banned items. To be on the safe side, the frog was packed in an empty (and washed) vitamin bottle and placed with his toothbrush and other bath stuff. 

He was a little paranoid since he always gets to be one of the people pulled aside by the airline to be checked, but this time he wasn't. I love the time I was searched thoroughly when I was bringing my infant son home from the hospital. Here I am with car seat, stroller, diaper bag and a baby just out of the hospital and they searched everything and damaged my stroller running it through the scanner.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I too had a little anxiety when my carry-on bag was going through the x-ray machine, but I had my dad there waiting just in case.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

This topic just reminded me of something I did before the tight airline security. I used to travel back and forth between california and utah to visit relatives, and my cousin had a love for turtles, as well as me, but she couldn't get anything good in cali. SO, I would sneak the turtles through the security gate in my pocket, lol. I wouldn't suggest it with frogs, but hey, if you wear baggy enough pants, you may be able to pull it off :wink: . Just use like a fish bag, fill it with a tiny bit of water, put the frog in, add some air, then walla, sneak it through, go to the bathroom, stick it in a deli cup, and in to your carry on. No guarantees it will work, but it is worth a shot :wink: Or you can stick it down you unmentionables incase they frisk ya, lol. Just one of those crazy ideas running through my mind, take no heed, :lol: 

Ed Parker


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

LOL. Frog in a bag! :lol: 

Like I said before, many many breeders and hobbiest alike have travelled with their frogs in a carry-on with no problem. This the first time that I have travelled with them and certainly not the last.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2005)

I'm really glad this thread was started. In the future I want to visit Washington to see (and hopefully buy) some of those great frogs that are up there, but was wondering how I could get them back on the plane with me. seems as though it may be easier than I thought.


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

*Rayo-Equis!!!*



> That is true, but then you have to consider those people getting X-Rays have to wear lead vests over their genitals and pregnant women can't get them


I work with x-rays all damn day long. We wear lead because we are exposed to it so much. I work with floroscopy (movie x-ray basically). If I were to stay 6 feet from that thing then no big deal, I could omit lead. But because I can't, I have to wear lead. An typical floro case is about 40 min of x-ray. Or the unprotected equivalent of 10 days in the sun. Do 5 cases a day, well it adds up. I'm sure the frogs are getting way less than that from airline stuff. Its pretty safe. But it is x-ray. There is some risk involved, but there is risk in everything. Yet it still doesn't concern me enough to not do it. I would not hesitate to put my beloved frogs through it. 
Dave


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I was thinking like matella prince. Couldnt you just us a small delicup JUST FOR THE X-RAY put it in your big baggy pockets and go through. Then go to the tiny lavatory WITH your bag on the airplane and switch containers.

How fun would it be to be saerched. "Dont worry officer these are just my POISON DART frogs no worrys."


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## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

Anecdote from yesterday.

I got some PDFs on when I was in providence on business. I flew Southwest from Providence to BWI without incident.

I did not ask/tell Southwest about them. I fully disclosed to TSA that I had them, and that I wanted a hand check of my bag. They were in a sweater box, which we took out, and the rest of the bag went through the machine. Everyone who worked there was fascinated by my "tree frogs" and other than calling me "frog man" for the 3 minutes I was there, there was no trouble.

My take: TSA doesn't care about frogs unless they explode, and the airlines who claim to care don't check baggage because that's TSA's job.


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

I've flown back from AZ with a sidewinder in a tuperware in my pocket..nough said. I also suggest what everyone else has said.. good dense packing in a carry on, and no use of the word poison, or dart. these are just some tropical frogs.


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## devin mac (Oct 4, 2004)

asydabass said:


> I've flown back from AZ with a sidewinder in a tuperware in my pocket..nough said. I also suggest what everyone else has said.. good dense packing in a carry on, and no use of the word poison, or dart. these are just some tropical frogs.


now is it just me or does that just sound like a really bad idea?


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## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

I flew back from Hawaii with gold dust day geckos in my carry on and had no problem. Put them through the x-ray thing and they didnt say anything.


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

I traveled from Seattle (FrogFest) to Washington DC recently with about 12 small tupperware containers with PDFs in them. There is no requirement for me to declare them at Security and I didn't bother to do so. I was mostly focused on keeping their ambient temperature and humidity stable. No problems encountered at all.

Alan


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

does anyone know united airlines rules on traveling with frogs?
I checked the rules and it doesnt say anything about it, so i assume it means its okay, but just wondering who else has tryed it.


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## Guest (Sep 16, 2005)

I do not think should be any problems with that.

I have done it b4 here in Canada. if u go international yes then u in trouble but domestic flights should be ok if they are well pack.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

Are there froggers in Hawaii? If so, how do they get their frogs?



VTHokie said:


> I flew back from Hawaii with gold dust day geckos in my carry on and had no problem. Put them through the x-ray thing and they didnt say anything.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

I don't know if there are laws regarding this, but they could search for some wild auratus. That's what I'd do....every weekend. For other species...they'd probably do the same stuff for imports here.


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## Guest (Apr 20, 2006)

[/quote]

I think the paying to ship FedEX, DHL, etc., is probably worth it. If you are planning on bringing the animals through anyway, you could encounter all sorts of bad situations if they aren't registered with the airline and you certainly don't want them getting run through the x-ray machine.

[/quote]


I wouldn't use DHL, I work for them


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> That's what I'd do....every weekend. For other species...they'd probably do the same stuff for imports here.


You have to get a permit at the wild life place on the big island and you're allowed 4 of each species if I remember correctly. I looked it up when I was researching Jackson's Chameleons. 

Kinda related, who's working with Hawiian Auratus? I haven't seen them in quite a while.


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