# Froglet nursery-Nano palm size wetland



## sean33 (Oct 11, 2006)

Hi all,
I'm a frog lover from Hong Kong.Would like to share with you my latest piece of work.

Tank size: 12 x 12 x 13.5(cm),Volume: 1.3L. 
Lighting: 7W Energy saving bulb. 
Filtration: None. 
Fauna: 2 pygmy frog froglets (Microhyla pulchra). 
Plants: Terrestrial mosses ,Unidentified fern,Pilea microphylla ,HC. 


July 2008 - Just set up.









With can of soda - just to give you an idea the size of the nano viv.











Nov 2008 -Full shot - including the 7w energy saving bulb.








Full shot - including the 7w energy saving bulb.

Front view.









Close up.









The resident of this nano viv - 2 little pygmy frog froglets (Microhyla pulchra).


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

Very nice!  What is on the back of the tank?


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## steelheader (Oct 25, 2008)

Wow! The small size is amazing. It's like a tiny piece of art. I would love something like that. Very cool


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## sean33 (Oct 11, 2006)

Jason said:


> Very nice!  What is on the back of the tank?


THX!! That's a build in LED light that comes with this little fish tank...... Oh,I forgot to mention,it was originally a nano fish tank for keeping betta fish. I did some modifiction and converted it into a vivarium.

Here is the link about this little tank:
http://www.aa-aquarium.com/NewProduct2.php?id=199&line_id=&level=3


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## pet-teez (Oct 3, 2007)

That is so awesome! A froglet nano! I love it, it's great how not flat and boring it is considering the size... a nano piece of art for sure


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

That is so freaking cool. You did a great job with the hardscaping this tiny little nano. Do those holes on the sides provide enough ventilation to keep the sides fog free?
I think I'm going to run to the local fish store and see if I can't find one of these tanks. Thanks for sharing.


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## sean33 (Oct 11, 2006)

boogsawaste said:


> That is so freaking cool. You did a great job with the hardscaping this tiny little nano. Do those holes on the sides provide enough ventilation to keep the sides fog free?
> I think I'm going to run to the local fish store and see if I can't find one of these tanks. Thanks for sharing.


Thx for the compliment!!! Yes those holes do their job well and keep the sides fog free.

Here a pic of the tank I took when the modification just completed. I put an untouched tank next to it for comparison.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

those tanks look great!!!


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## Kocodu (Nov 7, 2007)

Cool! Thanks for sharing!


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## sean33 (Oct 11, 2006)

Some update pics of the mini viv. Photos were taken last December.A small flowering plant Mazua miquelii bloomed.


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## Ed Holder (Sep 26, 2008)

Amazing! Thats all i can say, Thats a beautiful hardscape!


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## clwatkins10 (Nov 15, 2008)

Nice! Very cool little viv


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

Antones Neo Babe broms would be perfect for this little tank.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Given the size comparison to the pop can, I think the neo. babe would still be huge in that thing. That is definitely a miniature version of a nano viv. I like it a lot!

-Matt


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

That is an awesome tank! Maybe you'll encourage people in Hong Kong to get into frogs and start a little movement there! Next you need to build a viv for dart frogs : ).


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## dimitri J (Jun 7, 2008)

Looks great!! Can you explane how you made the cover of the tank? Was it standard with the betta tank or did you make it afterwords?

grtz
dimitri J


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## jausi (May 14, 2008)

Just amazin!!!!!!!!!!!!

This will be a perfect desk viv in your office, where did you get that cube???


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## sean33 (Oct 11, 2006)

dimitri J said:


> Looks great!! Can you explane how you made the cover of the tank? Was it standard with the betta tank or did you make it afterwords?


Thanks for reading my post everyone!!Glad that you all like it.

I bought this tank from a local fish store. I don't know whether it is available in the US. Here is the detail about this tank. 
AA Aquarium ¡V a reputable brand of quality aquarium equipment











This is the tank before modification.










The original cover is a one piece translucent plastic which blocks off certain amount of light.


























The main modification of the cover is to separate it into two parts. The rear part is retained and permanently glued to the tank. The front part is replaced by a piece of clear acrylic.











Two small pieces of steel mesh screen are siliconed to the opening for ventilation and at the same time FF proof the tank.









All gaps are sealed with silicone.


















Using the old cut out piece as a stencil,mark out the front piece on acrylic sheet. Cut out and polish the edges.As for the hinge and handle knob, I use a clear tape for the hinge and a suction cup for the knob.


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## Marinarawr (Jan 14, 2009)

That.... is one of the coolest things I've ever seen! 

Tiny things are so fabulous


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## RogerT (Sep 5, 2008)

And here i go again , cant help it but i must. 

Unlike others i find this horrible and ugly. 

True you have nearly 'mastered' the landscaping part, but in my opinion you cannot place a frog in this space. You cannot get a decent bio system going here. 

*Why can betta's be in this room and not frogs then* you might ask. 

Well, by coincidence i keep betta's aswell. From my experience these animals can be kept in larger spaces ( i keep them in 11 liter? 3 gallon? tanks 20x30x30cm which is 8x11x11 inch), but most of them dont use it. They are very lazy fish to my experience (unless you let them flare away), and by keeping the water refreshed every 1-2 days you can keep your betta happy and healthy. Also they will fight each other to death, so that leaves you up to keeping 1 fish per tank making them more happy solo in a smaller tank than 2 killing each other in 100x the size.. In Thailand betta's are raised in whiskey bottles, which is near this size.

A frog however is most of the time (unlike Ceratophrys cranwelli) an active animal that has territorium, breeding behaviour (sometimes complex) and are active hunters. By locking them up in such small spaces they grow fat and to some experienced keepers they live shorter. 

Recently there was a discussion on the dutch poisonfrog forums that 40x40x40 cm (thats 15.75x 15.75 x 15.75 inch) is too small for species as pumilio, tinctorius and all of the active species. 

(for those with dutch knowledge or a good translator you can find the discussion here Hoe groot moet je terrarium zijn > Forum > Gifkikkerportaal its an interesting discussion because there are some very experienced breeders debating there)

Now i dont want to mix myself in the debate from the dutch forums where they believe a couple of Tinctorius or pumilio should be kept in 100x50x50 cm (39.37 inch x 15.75 inch x 15.75 inch). But sizes as large as a soda can are easy to classify as: Torture. 

Just my 2 cents


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Roger,

Congrats on the courage to post your opinion on this tank especially in the face of such numerous and glowing praise from other members.

I think we all LOVE the little tanks, nano vivs ect but you are 1000% right......Let's hear from the Author on his plans and observations with regards to the livestock that he plans to include in his creation.

_Microhyla pulchra_ seems to be a viable choice of frog as it's tiny. Not saying good or bad.....

I hope and hope that no one ever considered this enclosure for any kind of dart frog.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

I personally love the tank design and execution. What is the small fern?

As far as keeping an animal in it, it may be small but I'm not sure I would equate it to torture. I don't think bettas nor frogs should be kept in enclosures this size. But, I don't keep either in anything. So, enjoy the plants!


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## RogerT (Sep 5, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Roger,
> 
> Congrats on the courage to post your opinion on this tank especially in the face of such numerous and glowing praise from other members.
> 
> ...


I have checked on this frog species and it seems to become at the size of a tricolor / pumilio. Maybe its not as active as both, but still small space. 

To the post above: 

A fish tank you can easy replace the water and thats that. 
You cannot with paludariums, you cannot remove soil every week because that will stress your frogs, they are not like fish that they forget like 5 seconds after, i remember a couple of Pumilio Bastimentos of mine were 2 months upset when i removed some plants from there vivarium (some have their characters  ). 

So since its so small and there is no biologic balance, waste and amonia build up. Which results in sick frogs after a time, and that is what i call torture.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

RogerT said:


> I have checked on this frog species and it seems to become at the size of a tricolor / pumilio. Maybe its not as active as both, but still small space.
> 
> To the post above:
> 
> ...


All good and valid points.

And I will add that I believe that it IS possible to "runt" (stunt or limit it's natural growth) a frog in a small enclosure despite a lot of opinions to the contrary.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

To the post above.

I do not disagree with your assessment of the results of bad husbandry, but your use of the word 'torture' is not appropriate since this word implies the intent to do physical or mental harm yo the recipient. I'm positive that is not the intent of this person when making this enclosure. 

I don't think anyone knows what is in the mind of frogs or fish and I do believe continually disturbing the environment of any animal on a periodic basis is stressful to them regardless of what they are.


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## RogerT (Sep 5, 2008)

harrywitmore said:


> To the post above.
> 
> I do not disagree with your assessment of the results of bad husbandry, but your use of the word 'torture' is not appropriate since this word implies the intent to do physical or mental harm yo the recipient. I'm positive that is not the intent of this person when making this enclosure.
> 
> I don't think anyone knows what is in the mind of frogs or fish and I do believe continually disturbing the environment of any animal on a periodic basis is stressful to them regardless of what they are.


When a child slowly pulls a leg off a living frog because it doesnt know its not supposed to do that because it hurts as hell, then that is just as much 'torture' as someone who does know that pulling a leg off hurts. Even if its not his intend, which i believe is the case here. 

According to internet:

unbearable physical pain; intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain

And even if its not the correct word, its this 'sensation' i had in mind when choosing the word. If you ever seen a fish dying to ammonia overdose and its gills burn away, you know that dying from that is a torture. Since frogs breath through their skin and take up toxins and other parts through it i think that dying through a ammonia overdose by frogs can be just as painful. 

Anyway, we can debate all about words, result is that 2 frogs (as far as i can see) are in a small enclosure and topic starter should do best to for example buy 10-20 more and connect them all together with each their own design and tunnels  Good example of this is this mega paludarium which is connected together:

















































To Philsuma, thanks for the previous support. 
A point you pointed out is that some frogs my be runted, i have not yet seen. What i do have seen before is: 

- Enormous fat frogs that eat themselves nearly to death because they can catch every fruitfly in 10 minutes. 

Ill give you an example:

This are frogs in the wild: 










Photo taken by a family i have met in the past a couple of times. 










Photo taken in a tank. 

Most of our frogs are in fact overweight, add there lack of space and easy to 'hunt' food to that = fatcamp.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Just something to consider, the author did entitle his thread "Froglet Nursery" I took this to mean it is only temp housing.

Sally


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## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

WHOOOAAAHHH!!!

That mega paludarium is awesome.

I do agree with RogerT, but that nano viv would be ideal for raising froglets, the ventilation holes around the bottom are ideal for releasing any build up of noxious gases that would be produced by waste in such a small space, especially if you are raising a clutch together. Springtails would be easy to hunt for a froglet in that small of a space, but I don't think you should keep any amount of froglets in there for too long.

Still, I like the bonsai-cube, very cool looking. Would be great for a sedentary frog like a pacman, but most frogs are pretty active.


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

Children who are not aware of the results of their actions do not torture. Sorry it's just not the same. Your use of the word was meant to imply wrong doing. Have you ever tried creating a sustaining environment in a small enclosure? If you were unsuccessful does that mean it cannot be done?

Some would debate with you that keeping any animal in captivity is torture. I don't believe this either. 

I can also say I have seen plenty of pain and suffering by many different animals from both torture by mean people and well meaning captors. Please do not assume what my experience has been.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

That color scheme is 'torture'


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

bussardnr said:


> That color scheme is 'torture'


LOL.....indeed 

BUT

Where is this mega paludarium located and just how do I go about being adopted / indentured by the owners so I can stare at this remarkable creation for a few years???

I can do some light housework and organize DVDs by genre....


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## RogerT (Sep 5, 2008)

harrywitmore said:


> Children who are not aware of the results of their actions do not torture. Sorry it's just not the same. Your use of the word was meant to imply wrong doing. Have you ever tried creating a sustaining environment in a small enclosure? If you were unsuccessful does that mean it cannot be done?
> 
> Some would debate with you that keeping any animal in captivity is torture. I don't believe this either.
> 
> I can also say I have seen plenty of pain and suffering by many different animals from both torture by mean people and well meaning captors. Please do not assume what my experience has been.


Well, it is wrong doing. It isnt right to house active critters in such a small space, see my explanation before about waste buildup. Like i said, im not interested in getting a discussion into a what a word means. The meaning / feeling i had is explained and thats that for me, if you dont settle for that its your loss. I hope you can see the points that are in this debate. 

About the waste. 

Every environment has a max amount of waste it can process, this is based upon various aspects to take into consideration... Bacterial life, critter life, ammount of poop created etc etc. 

But lucky for me and every sheep in the world there is also some basic sense, natural understanding of that when if you bring truckloads of feces to 1 part of grassland where sheep live, the sheep will eventually become sick and die.. I know that in the larger cities some people dont even know what a sheep looks like, but luckily most of them realize that a room filled with poop isnt a very healthy room to sleep in let alone eat in. 

If i see poop of my tinctorius couple in my 70x55x50 tanks laying on the floor for over 1-2 weeks in various stages, then im 100% confident that this tank will not be capable to clean waste in an natural way and on time(and with i have taken into calculation that the tank has Collembola, Oniscidea that help speed up this removal process)

I know its harsh to hear someone tell you that your stamp, i mean frog collection in tiny boxes is wrong. But i dont care about what people's opinions are to put it rather harsh. I see animals in a near future that will grow in an unhealthy environment, and thats what i care about. 

And i do realise that alot people have the opinion that you shouldnt be keeping exotic pets because i have met many many of these people, and most of them explain to me that keeping these pets is robbing them of freedom and ability to move and have a normal natural habitat. If they have an reason in mind why pets shouldnt be kept in cages, they see these 'disasters' in their mind instead of these beauties:










Offcourse i do not agree in with all their comments, but giving a frog a tank a size of a soda can isnt good care either way you look at it. Not even for a froglet to grow up in. 

And i dont asume anything about your experience, i take into account my own experience that has years to back my 'feelings' up.. And if that isnt enough, which i can understand, in the previous mentioned topic on the dutch forums there are several biologists, a guy working in a Columbia zoo that are even more fierce about this subject.

Currently the size of what a amphibian should have isnt researched officially, because it has alot of variables and there is always room for debate. But strong sounds are going towards that it should be researched, maybe in the future there will be some official details about this.


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## RogerT (Sep 5, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> LOL.....indeed
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...


haha, you can find alot paludariums at terracom.tk


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

I totally agree with your points about husbandry. I no longer keep any animals in cages smaller than an acre or so (2 dogs). I don;t have any issues with you thinking this persons enclosure is too small. I also don't understand why you so found it necessary to characterize it as 'torture'. Words matter and their misuse is done all the time to make a statement. I know you used it to get a certain response. You just did not expect one of them would be in the incorrect use of the word. So, maybe when you post one of your enclosures (have you done this?) which you have put much effort in, someone will pop up and post a note about why you are torturing your animals. You have not been here long so we know nothing about you other than what you say here. Let's see what you raise your froglets in.

I very much like the pictures you posted, are they yours?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

sean33 That is a beautiful tank btw. Hopefully some day i'll be able to pull off something that artistic. It would look great on my desk at work


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## sean33 (Oct 11, 2006)

srrrio said:


> Just something to consider, the author did entitle his thread "Froglet Nursery" I took this to mean it is only temp housing.
> 
> Sally



Didn't expect this post makes such a stir. As the title suggested this tank is intended for housing froglets only temporarily. When the froglets grow to a considerably size they'll be transfered to larger viv.

The idea behind this tank is for the ease of food seaching for the froglet and for easy observation.

Thanks for all the comments and informations. I've surely learned a good lesson.


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## crw.dft (Oct 14, 2008)

personally, i think it looks fabulous. as a nursery/temporary housing for froglets it looks perfect. i too am a big fan of nano-type aquariums/vivariums/terrariums. i actually just finished a 2.5 vert terrarium( and before someone jumps all over my s***, its just for plants. no animals) that i plan on posting soon. Anyhow, looks good man.


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