# Multispecies Paludarium



## macey225

I stumbled upon this great site while researching some ideas for a vivarium/paludarium that I am planning to put together. I actually don't plan to keep PDF's but the information on this site is so great I joined and thought I'd pose some questions here. I've spent many hours over the last few days browsing tons of threads and doing searches and here are a couple of things I'd like to explore further.

First off, I'm not truly a beginner as I've kept a lot of different herps for years. I have taken the last 6-7 years off as I've started a family and settled down and now I'd like to put a paludarium together to help introduce my kids interested to herps. I've done several terrariums/vivariums in the past but that was prior to my having a computer or anything and I'd never heard of false bottoms or many of the other concepts done today. I simply planted readily found plants in a soil substrate, sometimes with a small water feature.

I've got a couple of large Aquariums (a 125 and a 90) that I could use for this one, I'm leaning toward the 90 for now. I've always been attracted to the idea of multi-species exhibits and reading on here the last couple of days is the first time I've heard of hesitation putting some things together. I'd never thought of not combining non-native animals due to health concerns. It makes sense though, and I will probably end up changing my original plan to follow that advice. Here are some of the types of things I was planning on keeping (not all of them).

Snakes	
Brown snake	(Storeria dekayi)
Rough green snake	(Opheodrys aestivus)
Smooth green snake	(Opheodrys vernalis)

Salamanders	
Eastern Newt	(Notophthalmus viridescens)
Smallmouth Salamander	(Ambystoma texanum)
Blue-spotted Salamander	(Ambystoma laterale)
Western Newt	(Taricha torosa)

Frogs/Toads	
Green Treefrog	(Hyla cinerea)
Gray Treefrog	(Hyla versicolor)
Spring Peeper	(Pseudacris crucifer)
Eastern Narrow-mouthed Toad	(Gastrophryne carolinensis)
Fire Bellied Toad	(Bombina orientalis)
Red-Eyed Treefrog	(Agalychnis calidryas)
Clawed Frog	(Xenopus Laevis)
Dwarf Clawed Frog	(Hymenochirus boettgeri)

Lizards	
House Gecko	(Hemidactylus frenatus)(Hemidactylus turcicus)
Green Anole	(Anolis carolinensis)
Brown Anole	(Anolis sagrei)
Long-Tailed Grass Lizard	(Takydromus sexlineatus)

Inverts	
Giant Millipede	(Archispirostreptus gigas)
Red Claw Crabs	(Sesarma bidens)
Fidler Crabs	(Uca)


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## macey225

I will probably just end up keeping species that can be found in the southeastern US to eliminate any concerns about incompatibility health-wise. In a large tank I think I would be safe keeping something along the lines of this, any input would be welcomed.

2-3 Green Anoles
2-3 Brown Anoles
2 House Geckos
2-4 Green Tree Frogs
2 Gray Tree Frogs
2 Spring Peepers
2 Eastern Newts
2 Brown Snakes
2 Smooth Green Snakes
Along with some small fish in the water area

I need to continue to research while planning my false bottom & what method I will use for back wall, hardscape, planting, etc. I'd like to use a sump for filtration, heating, & increase water volume. Is it fairly easy & safe to drill holes in a commercial All-Glass Aquarium?

If I have the water primarily on one side of a 6 foot long tank, can I successfully create enough niches to allow many different animals to thrive (ie, can I create a humidity difference on the "dry" side of the tank, enough to give the animals that don't prefer 100% humidity an alternative area)?


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## BOOSHIFIED

errrr. you wanna put all those in there?

even if those were all compatible it would be too many


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## SmackoftheGods

When working with herps in a multispecies setup (which is generally found distasteful (to put it mildly) on this board) you need to focus on niches. You want the least about of interaction between species. Even in a 120 gallon paludarium there's not a lot of space to set up specific areas for each of the animals you mentioned. If you look at it, each of your frogs (green, grey, etc) are likely to use the same space. Each of your snakes are likely to use the same space. Your anoles and geckos are likely to spend as much time messing with your frogs as with your snakes. 

This is assuming that you want to work with a multispecies tank at all (which I have to discourage. Much better and healthier to keep each species in its own tank... and just as rewarding IMO).

Unless you're working with thousands of gallons you're looking at overcrowding your tank.


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## sgvreptiles

Id say everything but the snakes in a tank would work well. But I would go with a tank thats along the lines of 48x24x48 at least for those. 


And does anybody on here have multi species tank disaster stories?I hear people saying its unhealthy, but I personally havnt had any ill affects with my experiments. Im keeping dumpys and green tree pythons together. And have for a year or so. Frog crokes every nite.Snake eats every feeding. 
















And no the frog is not stressed. It was nite time when I took this photo. He sits on the branch and becomes brown. During the day he is green when he sleeps on his pathos.

I wish you best of luck, It is fun to watch species interact.


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## Brotherly Monkey

sgvreptiles said:


> Id say everything but the snakes in a tank would work well. But I would go with a tank thats along the lines of 48x24x48 at least for those.
> 
> 
> And does anybody on here have multi species tank disaster stories?I hear people saying its unhealthy, but I personally havnt had any ill affects with my experiments. Im keeping dumpys and green tree pythons together. And have for a year or so. Frog crokes every nite.Snake eats every feeding.
> 
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> 
> And no the frog is not stressed. It was nite time when I took this photo. He sits on the branch and becomes brown. During the day he is green when he sleeps on his pathos.
> 
> I wish you best of luck, It is fun to watch species interact.




Wouldn't a GTP be able to easily eat a frog of that size?


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## sgvreptiles

he could easily. I put the frog in there for him to eat. He prefers the other white meat i guess.


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## Brotherly Monkey

sgvreptiles said:


> he could easily. I put the frog in there for him to eat. He prefers the other white meat i guess.


so he was basically a feeder that stuck around?

Then why not


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## nicolerc

macey225 said:


> 2-3 Green Anoles
> 2-3 Brown Anoles
> 2 House Geckos
> 2-4 Green Tree Frogs
> 2 Gray Tree Frogs
> 2 Spring Peepers
> 2 Eastern Newts
> 2 Brown Snakes
> 2 Smooth Green Snakes
> Along with some small fish in the water area


Well...if you are going to attempt this, definitely leave out the brown anoles. They are very aggressive, even cannibalistic, and may out-compete and stress your green anoles. I'd also say that a 90, or even a 125 gallon tank, is nowhere near big enough to pull this off.


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## macey225

SmackoftheGods said:


> When working with herps in a multispecies setup (which is generally found distasteful (to put it mildly) on this board) you need to focus on niches. You want the least about of interaction between species. Even in a 120 gallon paludarium there's not a lot of space to set up specific areas for each of the animals you mentioned. If you look at it, each of your frogs (green, grey, etc) are likely to use the same space. Each of your snakes are likely to use the same space. Your anoles and geckos are likely to spend as much time messing with your frogs as with your snakes.
> 
> This is assuming that you want to work with a multispecies tank at all (which I have to discourage. Much better and healthier to keep each species in its own tank... and just as rewarding IMO).
> 
> Unless you're working with thousands of gallons you're looking at overcrowding your tank.


Thanks for all of the input so far. I have successfully kept multispecies before in a 45 gallon vivarium for years. Not as many animals as I'm thinking about now, but Frogs, Anoles, Newts, Snakes, Fish, etc. Now granted, those tanks were probably overcrowded some, but I didn't have too many issues with animals.

This tank will be large (6 feet long), so I think there will be enough niches to support the various animals. I won't do anything until the Paludarium is built and I can monitor the space and decide. My thoughts are that the animals will not compete too much for space. In my experience, while the Anoles may occupy similar niches to each other and the Frogs may want to occupy similar niches to each other, the size of a 6 foot tank should provide enough room for a handful of them. The Brown snakes are ground dwelling and the Green snakes will spend more time on the plants.

Green Anoles - toward the top of tank on plants/wall
Brown Anoles - middle/bottom of tank on plants/wall
House Geckos - very top of tank on wall dryest area
All Frogs - on plants/wall
Eastern Newts - Water area
Brown Snakes - Under vegetation/leaf litter
Smooth Green Snakes - on plants mid tank

Like I said, I'll be going slow and I will have no problem separating animals out into other tanks if they do appear to be overcrowded.


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## Philsuma

The snakes are going to predate the anolis and frogs.

The age old biotope / community display problem - humidity and air flow.

Amphibians need 70-85% humidity and most reptiles, especially north American reptiles will not do well with that high level of humidity.


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## zBrinks

The brown snake is mainly an invertebrate eater - and fossorial. Probably would not bother any other critters, but you would most likely never/rarely see it. Both species of green snake are insect specialists. They would utilize the same area, more or less, as the anoles. 

Why not stick to one green snake, and one species of frog (I'd lean towards spring peepers myself, as they would utilize smaller prey items that the snakes would not go after, and be active at different times - as a side note, you realize how loud these frogs can be?). The peepers would also utilize a swampy/marshy area, which could be integrated between an aquatic area for the newts when they're active, and a drier area for the snake. This would also allow for a humidity gradient if the tank was vented properly. 
The newts should be easy enough to find CB, but it would take some work to find CB of the other species (and well worth the effort, IME). You'd also want to double check your local laws when keeping natives. Maybe visit some zoos and nature centers, that often have native displays, and try to talk to someone who takes care of the animals. 

I think, by limiting the species/individuals, paying careful attention to providing visual barriers, niches, etc, and providing a large enough enclosure, it could be done. Should it be done? That's not a question I can answer.


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## Wallace Grover

Hmmm, you need to do a lot more research before reaching a conclusion. There would be so much waste and feeding needs in there it would be ridiculous.

Even this mans tank: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction-62.html could not support all those animals. Perhaps you should look around at others successful vivariums and observe their stocking loads just to give you a general idea...


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## macey225

Wallace Grover said:


> Hmmm, you need to do a lot more research before reaching a conclusion. There would be so much waste and feeding needs in there it would be ridiculous.
> 
> Even this mans tank: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/43615-large-vivarium-construction-62.html could not support all those animals. Perhaps you should look around at others successful vivariums and observe their stocking loads just to give you a general idea...


I do plan to continue research before starting, I will not be rushing into anything. I think you're flat cuckoo if you think Energy's tank couldn't support those animals though, that would be almost 100 gallons per small herp.

If I end up going with the 125 and even if I decide to go with all of the different species I mentioned that would be about 7 gallons per animal. I don't think that is too excessive, although I don't think I am going to go with all 3 species of frogs, and will not go over 1.1 pairs of anything else.


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## macey225

Philsuma said:


> The snakes are going to predate the anolis and frogs.
> 
> The age old biotope / community display problem - humidity and air flow.
> 
> Amphibians need 70-85% humidity and most reptiles, especially north American reptiles will not do well with that high level of humidity.


As zBrinks mentioned the snakes shouldn't bother the other herps. They stay pretty small (not much bigger than a pencil). The Brown snakes eat worms, grubs, slugs, & snails so I'd like to keep them to prevent any snail/slug infestations. The green snakes are insectivorous, and both snakes sizes would prevent them from taking anything other than baby frogs or anoles.

I'm really going to concentrate on creating the different niches. I will keep my water area on one side of the tank while providing ventilation. If I'm unable to keep the humidity down on the other side of the tank, I'll switch gears and just keep amphibians in there. We'll see how it goes.


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## Ed

I'm more worried by problems that are going to be set up by thermal requirements as well as those set up by soil moisture. When dealing with many temperate zone species, the niche requirements can be surprisingly narrow. 
Storeria ssp require a cool refugia (upper 60s to mid 70s), with access to basking sites that run into the mid 80s, maybe low 90s F and do not tend to do well long term when housed in conditions where they cannot gain access to the cooler temperatures. 

Smooth greensnakes (and rough-greensnakes) are considered very problematic to establish and sustain long-term in captivity due to surprisingly high metabolic requirements (need to be fed several times a week), as well as the need for dry basking sites with good air movement. Most of the ones aquired through the pet trade do very poorly in captivity due to poor acclimation and insufficient feedings before being aquired. 

Both Northern and Southern peepers are cool temperature species and seek refugia to avoid continual exposures to temperatures over 75 F.. 

Grey and green treefrogs tolerate a wide variety of conditions fairly well but I would still worry about the temperatures in the enclosure.

Virtually all of the subspecies of Eastern newts do not do well if housed in water temperatures over 70 F continually. This species actually does best when kept below 70F. (In captivity this species can live for more than 20 years when kept properly...) 

With respect to the anoles, you cannot assume that they will stay where you expect them to as this will depend on a number of conditions including basking sites, display perches etc.. Your enclosure is not sufficiently high to get the stratification of habitat as seen in the wild in these species (where the brown anole has not eliminated the green anole, by predating heavily on the hatchling green anoles (which are more terrestrial to avoid predation by adult green anoles..)) so you cannot assume the anoles will seperate in that manner. I would expect the brown anoles to displace the greens from the optimal display and basking sites to the long term detriment of the green anoles. 

When dealing with temperate zone species(particularly those that are fossorial to any degree or show strong seasonal activity), one really needs to start with an enclosure in which the ambient temperatures are going to be cooler than those used in tropical species as the cooler microenviroments can be very important to many species. I would personally not attempt that multispecies enclosure due to the very real risks of being unable to provide the proper temperatures (due to the wide range of tolerance), as well as some significant risks of aggression. 

Some of those in simpler combinations work just fine provided you can meet the niche and temperature requriments. Larger enclosures do not automatically translate into being able to supply the suitable niches (particularly given such a wide range of requirments)..

Some comments,

Ed


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## Dendro Dave

Ed said:


> I'm more worried by problems that are going to be set up by thermal requirements as well as those set up by soil moisture. When dealing with many temperate zone species, the niche requirements can be surprisingly narrow.
> Storeria ssp require a cool refugia (upper 60s to mid 70s), with access to basking sites that run into the mid 80s, maybe low 90s F and do not tend to do well long term when housed in conditions where they cannot gain access to the cooler temperatures.
> 
> Smooth greensnakes (and rough-greensnakes) are considered very problematic to establish and sustain long-term in captivity due to surprisingly high metabolic requirements (need to be fed several times a week), as well as the need for dry basking sites with good air movement. Most of the ones aquired through the pet trade do very poorly in captivity due to poor acclimation and insufficient feedings before being aquired.
> 
> Both Northern and Southern peepers are cool temperature species and seek refugia to avoid continual exposures to temperatures over 75 F..
> 
> Grey and green treefrogs tolerate a wide variety of conditions fairly well but I would still worry about the temperatures in the enclosure.
> 
> Virtually all of the subspecies of Eastern newts do not do well if housed in water temperatures over 70 F continually. This species actually does best when kept below 70F. (In captivity this species can live for more than 20 years when kept properly...)
> 
> With respect to the anoles, you cannot assume that they will stay where you expect them to as this will depend on a number of conditions including basking sites, display perches etc.. Your enclosure is not sufficiently high to get the stratification of habitat as seen in the wild in these species (where the brown anole has not eliminated the green anole, by predating heavily on the hatchling green anoles (which are more terrestrial to avoid predation by adult green anoles..)) so you cannot assume the anoles will seperate in that manner. I would expect the brown anoles to displace the greens from the optimal display and basking sites to the long term detriment of the green anoles.
> 
> When dealing with temperate zone species(particularly those that are fossorial to any degree or show strong seasonal activity), one really needs to start with an enclosure in which the ambient temperatures are going to be cooler than those used in tropical species as the cooler microenviroments can be very important to many species. I would personally not attempt that multispecies enclosure due to the very real risks of being unable to provide the proper temperatures (due to the wide range of tolerance), as well as some significant risks of aggression.
> 
> Some of those in simpler combinations work just fine provided you can meet the niche and temperature requriments. Larger enclosures do not automatically translate into being able to supply the suitable niches (particularly given such a wide range of requirments)..
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


I 2nd everything Ed said. There was a lot of info there I didn't know, but I trust that he does.

I'm wondering if you are intent on doing this that it wouldn't be better to stick to more tropical species as an enclosure like this probably lends itself to better creating that habitat then a temperate one even skewed towards the southeastern climate.

In a tank the size you are talking about I do think you need to cut the number of animals and species nearly in half also to maintain what I would find an acceptable margin of safety and responsibility, Perhaps more.

Maybe a mix more like this...

1 species of diurnal tree frog x2
1 species of nocturnal tree frog x2
1 species of day gecko, maybe a larger one like mad mads x2 (frogs should not be small enough that mad mads might eat them, smaller day gecko species may be an option also, or green anoles(Have seen aggression towards other lizard species in anoles though, don't think I've seen it towards frogs so far)
1 species of dart frog that does well in groups like terriblis, or galacts. x 4

Maybe 1 snake, of some small tropical species that will likely leave everything else alone (if such a thing is available)

You may be able to get away with adding a nocturnal gecko species like flying geckos, and possibly a newt or salamander species. I've actually had really good luck with fire-bellied newts in vivariums. They came out at night or early morning and grew really huge for me very quickly and survived years. But they were mostly terrestrial in behavior, a paddle-tailed newt or warty hongkong newt may be more aquatic options. I've kept both in vivarium conditions and they did quite well for years. I know some may argue that those are not ideal conditions for some of the species I listed, but I did it when I was new. Still I found they seemed to do really well, grew fast, were active with no obvious health issues and lived for years until the Ice storm that wiped out most of my herp/amphib collection.

I would try to give each diurnal animal (not just species) around 10 gallons of tank space, but don't stock up on the same number of nocturnal ones since they won't be as visible and it gives you an extra margin of error in the "tank load" area to some degree.

Just some thoughts, I welcome a critique as other then darts and geckos/anoles/newts I don't have much experience with the other animal types or in keeping some of the ones I do have experience with in the company of other species, at least not so many other species.


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## macey225

Thanks again for the comments!! I will definitely take all of that into careful consideration before adding the herps. Here are some things that I had been considering along with a couple of questions that may go along way toward estabilishing the limitations of a tank like this.

I have been considering a water wall feature on one extreme end of the enclosure with a pond area that takes up approximately the first 10-12 inches. I'm thinking of sectioning off the substrate of that (wet) half of the tank from the other half with a glass/plexi divider siliconed in. I would have a false bottom with a sump that filters that half. The other half would have less of a false bottom and drainage just to a collection tank. I want to pursue a misting system and concentrate 75% or so of the misting heads on the wet side and 25% on the other half. I would also provide more screen top on the dry side as well as fans for ventilation.

1. Would this provide enough of a difference in substrate saturation to matter?
2. With this setup, is there likely to be a significant difference in humidity in 6 feet of space? Say 85% wet side and 65% dry side?

I've also considered adding some vertical space on the "dry" side. I'm thinking of building a 2 foot tall plexi box that would cover 1/2 the tank to allow additional vertical space for species such as Anolis carolinensis.

1. Has anyone seen or had experience with something of that nature and do you think it would be a waste?

I have considered doing a tropical rainforest tank instead, and may go that route, but I have much more experience keeping more common herps so I lean that direction initially.


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## Dendro Dave

macey225 said:


> Thanks again for the comments!! I will definitely take all of that into careful consideration before adding the herps. Here are some things that I had been considering along with a couple of questions that may go along way toward estabilishing the limitations of a tank like this.
> 
> I have been considering a water wall feature on one extreme end of the enclosure with a pond area that takes up approximately the first 10-12 inches. I'm thinking of sectioning off the substrate of that (wet) half of the tank from the other half with a glass/plexi divider siliconed in. I would have a false bottom with a sump that filters that half. The other half would have less of a false bottom and drainage just to a collection tank. I want to pursue a misting system and concentrate 75% or so of the misting heads on the wet side and 25% on the other half. I would also provide more screen top on the dry side as well as fans for ventilation.
> 
> 1. Would this provide enough of a difference in substrate saturation to matter?
> 2. With this setup, is there likely to be a significant difference in humidity in 6 feet of space? Say 85% wet side and 65% dry side?
> 
> I've also considered adding some vertical space on the "dry" side. I'm thinking of building a 2 foot tall plexi box that would cover 1/2 the tank to allow additional vertical space for species such as Anolis carolinensis.
> 
> 1. Has anyone seen or had experience with something of that nature and do you think it would be a waste?
> 
> I have considered doing a tropical rainforest tank instead, and may go that route, but I have much more experience keeping more common herps so I lean that direction initially.


To do a temp/humidity gradient like you are talking about I would do one side of the tank low and wet, sloping up to a high/drier side. Physical barriers to help block and/or direct airflow are also helpful. Say a large piece of drift wood in the middle or closer to low wet side with pond to help further trap the air and humidity on that side, while fan blows down on your higher drier side.

You can use something like this to further decrease the humidity on one side...
Eva Dry Mini 300, Silica Gel Dehumidfier f/Sml Cabinets - eBay (item 320565317189 end time Aug-21-10 11:21:39 PDT)

If you look at how it works it only needs power to discharge the collected water, so you can put it on a timer so its off during the day while it collects water and is on at night to discharge the water (sounds counter intuitive but thats how it works)

Some of the info in my desert viv threads may be useful to you...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/35591-desert-vivariums.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/37379-glowing-desert-viv-finished.html


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## Wallace Grover

macey225 said:


> I do plan to continue research before starting, I will not be rushing into anything. I think you're flat cuckoo if you think Energy's tank couldn't support those animals though, that would be almost 100 gallons per small herp.
> 
> If I end up going with the 125 and even if I decide to go with all of the different species I mentioned that would be about 7 gallons per animal. I don't think that is too excessive, although I don't think I am going to go with all 3 species of frogs, and will not go over 1.1 pairs of anything else.


About half of the bottom surface area is not terrestrial, and not to mention in a vivarium as large as his naturally in order to maintain an asthetically pleasing look he isn't going to be able to utilize every inch of his land area top to bottom...


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## macey225

Does anyone know if the 2 tanks in question here are made with tempered glass? I would imagine the 125 definitely has a tempered bottom at least, and since the other one is also 6 foot long, I would think that it is too. How about the backs, would they be safe to drill?

I would really like to install a drain into a sump to maintain constant water level, but don't want to break the tank. I've tried to research it unsuccessfully so far, does anyone know how I can find out?


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## SmackoftheGods

macey225 said:


> If I end up going with the 125 and even if I decide to go with all of the different species I mentioned that would be about 7 gallons per animal. I don't think that is too excessive, although I don't think I am going to go with all 3 species of frogs, and will not go over 1.1 pairs of anything else.


I understand that there's no a direct correlation. Most of what I've been working with are PDFs and obviously what I do for my animals is not what would be best for yours. But still, even in my single species enclosures there are some species that I want a _minimum_ of 10 gallons per animal. I know that if I were to ever attempt a multi species enclosure (and I have no plans to) I'd want at least two or three times that space.... Point is, I feel like 7 gallons is pushing it... that's just my thought.

As a side note, has anyone noticed that this is the most civil multi-species thread DB has possibly ever seen? There's _actually_ information sharing going on in this thread. Who wants to bet that's because we're not talking about darts?


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## cheezus_2007

i cant believe someone would use a whites tree frog as a feeder... poor frog...


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## Rain_Frog

> i cant believe someone would use a whites tree frog as a feeder... poor frog...


I was going to second that-- isn't that just a little unethical?

Then again, goldfish are used for feeders, and goldfish used to be only kept by royalty. I know someone that kept some type of vine snake and could only get it to accept anolis lizards.


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## Brotherly Monkey

Rain_Frog said:


> I was going to second that-- isn't that just a little unethical?


How is it anymore ethical/unethical than any other feeder?


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## SmackoftheGods

I remember watching a movie about a Cappuchin (spelling?) monkey that was fed an anole lizard.... Well, it wasn't about that event but it happened in the movie. I felt _so bad_ for the lizard. I think it comes down to what you have an attachment to. A local pet store has these monster goliath tree frogs (I don't know if that's their official name but they're huge) and they're fed green tree frogs. My little brother feeds pinkey mice to his taranchula. I hate the idea of using most vertebrates as feeders (don't care quite so much about fish), but in the end it's part of life.... I feel bad for the frog, I wouldn't be able to do it myself, but I can't condemn someone who uses it as a feeder.


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## VivariumWorks

Looks like your already on your way to making a good setup.

Except for the snakes and possible anole territorial issues, you'll be fine.

I say this not from theory, but from experience.

I've been there and done that (big mixed tanks) for 6 years now. For example the two 4'X4'X2' tanks seen below hold all kinds of lizards, geckos, frogs and even turtles in the water one. (No darts though.)

Yes turtles with frogs! OMG?! How is that possible you all ask? Um the turtles don't climb after the tree frogs. Although the stinkpot did climb the waterfall once about halfway, but he is the water cleaner mostly these days eating any crickets that jump into the water and the occasional feeder fish.





















Just don't go cheep and get yourself a good true misting system and proper lighting. Considering that most of your herps in question are semi-arboreal, adding on a top section made from wood coated in epoxy to waterproof it is an affordable way to greatly increase your vertical space and total tank volume. Seen below is a 125 with that done to it. It was first drilled for a large sump. Then the top wooden piece was screwed together and coated in epoxy. From there it was siliconed on top of the 125 to make a waterproof seam, roughly doubling the volume.





















While it is a good idea to keep things separated, most people on these boards don't have tanks with these kinds of volume. Very few guys have 120+ gallon tanks here. So keep in mind what holds true for a 24X36 and 18X18 and dart frogs, doesn’t for wall sized setups with no dartfrogs. Give them the space, keep them well fed, and you'll be fine so long as you have the proper hardware. (Lighting, ventilation, misting system, filtration)


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## vivbulider

if its a standerd 90g 4'x18"x2' l,w,h, you could make it a vert and have a dart frog and a tree boa


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## SmackoftheGods

vivbulider said:


> if its a standerd 90g 4'x18"x2' l,w,h, you could make it a vert and have a dart frog and a tree boa


Yeah... don't do this.


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## macey225

VivariumWorks, I really like the way that 125 looks with the cabinet added on top. I will be pursuing that option. I was originally only thinking of doing one side like that but after seeing that tank I don't think it would turn out nearly as well and the vertical space over the water area can be utilized well enough too.

I was initially thinking my other tank was a 90 because it is almost the same height and depth as my 45, but twice as long at 6 feet. However after researching it some, I think it might be an 80 gallon instead.

Thanks for all of the comments, once I get everything started I'll post a construction journal.


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## vivbulider

SmackoftheGods said:


> Yeah... don't do this.


Why this is better then mixing frogs


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## nathan

l x w x h / 231 = gallons


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## jubjub47

Rain_Frog said:


> I was going to second that-- isn't that just a little unethical?


I don't see how that's anymore unethical than feeding any other species of frog. It may not be a commonly used feeder item, but maybe it's an easily obtainable food item for him.


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## tclipse

macey225 said:


> Thanks for all of the input so far. I have successfully kept multispecies before in a 45 gallon vivarium for years. Not as many animals as I'm thinking about now, but Frogs, Anoles, Newts, Snakes, Fish, etc. Now granted, those tanks were probably overcrowded some, but I didn't have too many issues with animals.
> 
> This tank will be large (6 feet long), so I think there will be enough niches to support the various animals. I won't do anything until the Paludarium is built and I can monitor the space and decide. My thoughts are that the animals will not compete too much for space. In my experience, while the Anoles may occupy similar niches to each other and the Frogs may want to occupy similar niches to each other, the size of a 6 foot tank should provide enough room for a handful of them. The Brown snakes are ground dwelling and the Green snakes will spend more time on the plants.
> 
> Green Anoles - toward the top of tank on plants/wall
> Brown Anoles - middle/bottom of tank on plants/wall
> House Geckos - very top of tank on wall dryest area
> All Frogs - on plants/wall
> Eastern Newts - Water area
> Brown Snakes - Under vegetation/leaf litter
> Smooth Green Snakes - on plants mid tank
> 
> Like I said, I'll be going slow and I will have no problem separating animals out into other tanks if they do appear to be overcrowded.


I have a 125 palu personally, and once you put the water in, there isn´t nearly enough room to cut the wall into top, middle, and bottom. I also have only 4¨of water in it, and I´m still standing by that statement. One foot of space (about what is left over when water and soil are added) cannot be split into three 4¨sections in terms of space for animals.

Also, a 125G palu ends up being one humidity level no matter what you do. It´s not tall enough to have regions of great variance in humidity... and yes, I have tried all sorts of ventilation. If you vent one side too much, the other side is too dry for the frogs.... and if you don´t vent it enough, it´s too humid for the lizards. It´s pretty hard to have a 20% difference in humidity (consistently) over a six foot space. You´d probably need to rig some sort of trap-door ventilation system on a timer to be perfect lol.

(Unless its a 125H for both of these points, but I think you said 6 foot length so I´m assuming standard 125G. One of those snakes will most likely end up at least trying for one of the anoles, check any field guide... small lizards and frogs are a part of the green snake´s natural diet IIRC)


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## SmackoftheGods

vivbulider said:


> Why this is better then mixing frogs


Better than mixing frogs because your snake and your frog can't interbreed?

While I might be willing to debate this, I'm not going to. The OP already said he's not contemplating PDFs (at least not yet) so there's no reason to debate it. I'll simply say that someone who makes a blanket statement like "mixing a snake and a PDF is better than mixing PDFs" is likely not very well versed in all the many, many difficulties of mixing. Bad idea. Don't do it. That's all I have to say on the matter. Moving on.


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## vivbulider

SmackoftheGods said:


> Better than mixing frogs because your snake and your frog can't interbreed?
> 
> While I might be willing to debate this, I'm not going to. The OP already said he's not contemplating PDFs (at least not yet) so there's no reason to debate it. I'll simply say that someone who makes a blanket statement like "mixing a snake and a PDF is better than mixing PDFs" is likely not very well versed in all the many, many difficulties of mixing. Bad idea. Don't do it. That's all I have to say on the matter. Moving on.


there's alot of stuff about mixing tree boas and darts my zoo does it in a tank around the same size there was a guy who did it on here there was a reptile mag about it


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## BBJ

I am baffled as to how you would find enough room in a 125 gallon viv for all this 

I have a 160 gallon and i find i barely have enough room in there for creating the habitat i want for 6 PDF's - i am interested in seeing how this turns out! Keep us posted 

Regards Bjorn


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## jubjub47

vivbulider said:


> there's alot of stuff about mixing tree boas and darts my zoo does it in a tank around the same size there was a guy who did it on here there was a reptile mag about it


Zoos do a lot of things that are frowned upon in the herp hobby. Not because they don't know what they're doing, but because their budgets require them to get creative and they have the ability to monitor the animals for issues that the average hobbyist can and will not do.


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## vivbulider

jubjub47 said:


> Zoos do a lot of things that are frowned upon in the herp hobby. Not because they don't know what they're doing, but because their budgets require them to get creative and they have the ability to monitor the animals for issues that the average hobbyist can and will not do.


i know that i was giving a example and i gave other examples


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## yours

It may be beneficial to consider single species tanks, otherwise you jeopardize successful breeding and interesting interactions between individuals......you can always buy ANOTHER tank, and get another critter to keep in there---heck, MANY more tanks.....join the addiction!!! 



Alex


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## dendrothusiast

you have an interesting project there. green tree pythons can be mixed with anything that's not warm blooded so it's safe to say they wont eat your valuable frogs. There was an article a couple years back in that well known reptiles magazine that first introduced that concept to multispecies as he had rainblow tree lizards with green dart frogs all mixed in with a green tree python. 

for your paludarium if you still havent gotten far you may wanna consider tall vertical as both dumpie's and green tree's love to clim as well as giving them some open areas to bask- dumpy's love to bask even though there frogs. my co-worker's did that alot when i was still working in a reptile shop


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