# How closely related are dendrobate species?



## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

How closely related are different dendrobate species? Say two tinctorius species mate--are the offspring sterile? Are their offspring sterile? What are their fecundities as compared to "pure breeds?"

What do the hybrids look like? From what I've seen from searching the web, they look very much like one of the parents.

Tom


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Tinctorius is a species, you're reffering to morphs. They will be able to reproduce. From my understanding frogs from the same complex can cross. So for example, in the Tinc complex a Azureus, Leuc, Auratus, Tinc, Galac could all interbreed, though there could easily be exceptions. I've seen a Leuc/Azureus and what a stunning frog. I was pissed it was a hybrid.



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## Auhsoj27 (Jun 3, 2005)

From photos I've seen of known hybrid darts, they look very much how you might expect them to given the appearance of the parents. They'll have a mix of characteristics from both parents, which can be trouble when the parents are close in appearance to begin with. You'll end up with a hybrid frog that looks like either one, and could easily be passed off as pure blood. Which is why it's so important not to mix things up. It's only when you mix radically different looking frogs that you'd get an obvious hybrid. I've seen some auratas x tincs and some leuc x tincs that looked very out of place.

As for the sterility, I have never heard anything that would indicate a hybrid dart couldn't go on to reproduce.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I don't mean to come off as conceited or condescending, but just fyi, "dendrobate" is not a word. The genus is Dendrobates, and can only be used correctly with the "s," in exactly the same way as the genus Clemmys (pond turtles) cannot be shortened to "Clemmy." For some reason froggers often get this wrong, and it irks me. One dart frog company even has it wrong in their name!

Anyway, it's a common mistake, and again, I hope I didn't offend anyone, but I do think that proper use of the scientific names is important in this hobby.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2006)

okay i have to ask for some hybrid pics!

sorry i had to.......


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> don't mean to come off as conceited or condescending, but just fyi, "dendrobate" is not a word. The genus is Dendrobates, and can only be used correctly with the "s," in exactly the same way as the genus Clemmys (pond turtles) cannot be shortened to "Clemmy." For some reason froggers often get this wrong, and it irks me. One dart frog company even has it wrong in their name!


What about abbreviating the scientific names? Does it "irk" you when people say "Fant" instead of "Fantasticus"? Or Imi, galact, pum, tinc?


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

I could see how two different morphs of D. tinctorius could produce viable offspring, but what about two related but different species of the so-called "tinctorius group" frogs, such as D. Tinctorius and D. Leucomelas? I would not imagine that interbreeding these species would produce viable offspring beyond the F4 generation, if that. Is that a valid assumption?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Pointing it out once was plenty.

s


npaull said:


> ... Anyway, it's a common mistake, and again, I hope I didn't offend anyone, but I do think that proper use of the scientific names is important in this hobby.


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

Why do you ask, are you wanting to cross breed?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

What's it matter how many generations out that they can reproduce?

They can reproduce once and that's a hybrid.

End of story - no other "assumptions" needed.

s


tivas said:


> I could see how two different morphs of D. tinctorius could produce viable offspring, but what about two related but different species of the so-called "tinctorius group" frogs, such as D. Tinctorius and D. Leucomelas? I would not imagine that interbreeding these species would produce viable offspring beyond the F4 generation, if that. Is that a valid assumption?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I would not imagine that interbreeding these species would produce viable offspring beyond the F4 generation


Why F4? Is there something special about breeding that deep in a line? I know jack all about selective breeding techniques.



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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Dane- nope, those don't bother me at all ... it's a different thing, an abbreviation rather than a perpetuated error. Again, I really didn't meant to come off as an asshole to anyone (I'm really not trying to sound holier-than-thou) I just thought I'd point it out.

Scott - apparently not...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Oh it's plenty. Hang out on a scientific board if you need perfect nomenclature.

You're not going to get it here.

s


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Scott, 

It's hard to get tone across in a forum post, so I could be misreading this, but I feel like you're being aggressive for no particular reason. I don't think exact nomenclature is essential all the time, but I do think that most people on this board want to sound proficient with dart nomenclature, and I myself think it's good to point out consistent, innocent, yet fundamental, mistakes. Again, this is a TOTALLY different thing from using terms like tinc, imi, etc. I'm not an expert in dart taxonomy, I'm not debating the minutia of imitator subspeciation; I'm pointing out something pretty basic. And I'm not complaining about truncating a name for the sake of convenience. I think it's a simple misunderstanding on the part of many.

Anyway, I'll apologize again if I sounded high and mighty, and I further apologize if I offended you. I thought this was a pretty simple, innocent thing, and I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. But there's no reason why everyone shouldn't get this right.

Best,
NP


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I just think you made your point once - and that was plenty.

That's all.

s


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

There is no debate about Dendrobate but at any rate there's no need to berate or become irate so shake hands and start off with a clean slate.

Hey it's been one of those days. Peace 8) 

Bill


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2006)

> But there's no reason why everyone shouldn't get this right.


Unless you're possibly a newbie like me. Geez, I can't even pronounce any of the names correctly, and that's after the wonderful Latin turorial we've had recently.


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

When all you have done is read the words, you make up your own pronunciation. I try to make it a point not to say a word out loud that I have only read and never heard pronounced because I always get it wrong! I can't say any of the frog names right, I didn't say bromeliad or tillandsia right at first, and I have a hard time pronouncing carnivorous! And I work with words/language as my job all day. I certainly want to be corrected when I misprounounce so that I can learn the right way, but jumping all over someone for it is not the right way. Letting it become a pet peeve and really irking you and taking it out on someone for it is not nice. Maybe this topic of conversation needs to be made into a sticky or added into the FAQ, because it has been brought up a lot lately.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

So, um, how did the topic of cross breeding morphs and/or species turn into a spelling debate anyway?? take it somewhere else guys, lol

Ok, i just finished reading a journal article on the relatedness of some Dendrobatid frogs (god I hope I didn't screw that word up, lol). THrough their genetic work, they determined that D. tinctorious is a monophyletic grouping with D. leucomela's. Auratus are not as closely related as leucs and azureus are to tincs. THen, pumilio and sylvaticus are more closely related to each other than any other. ANd imitators are more closely related to a minyobates species. I will have to look at the article again, and put up the info on it. TO tired to think scientifically tonight . 

But, as far as I know, tincs and leucs can successfully be breed together, and leucs to auratus (i think). I haven't personally heard of an auratus to tinc hybrid, but it may be possible. I am not sure how genetically different they are from each other. They may have been speciated beyond that point. ANyway, don't hybridize them anyway, it is stupid, and lame. There are plenty of species out there, that are much more beautiful than any hybrid can be. No reason to try to muck up the hobby anymore than it is already. (and please don't blast my spelling and grammar errors : P ) 

Ed Parker


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## tivas (Nov 23, 2005)

Not looking to cross breed; we were discussing hybridization in genetics class last week and was just wondering what people knew about hybridization in frogs. Thanks for the info.


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

What do you want to know about hybridization in frogs????


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Here is an old thread about hybrids with a picture of a leucomelas/azureus:

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6035

I've seen a auratus/azureus and one is mentioned in that thread, but no picture. If tincs/azureus are as closely related as some think it seems that the auratus/tinc hybrid may be possible...

Marcos


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

what cross is this?


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

Hey, this one was actually SOLD!!! its a citro x G.O.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

You'll find some good answers about how these frogs can interbreed by reading past posts about hybridizing these guys. You're basically running off an interpretation of a species, and this changes with basically every taxonomist. Two species can be as different as not being able to breed (behavioral, physcial, or other reasons) or being so closely related that the only thing keeping those two species from interbreeding is one factor (such as geographical barriers like tincs and azureus, or being in different niches within an ecosystem, sometimes it doesn't take much and in captivity the animals, without those differentiations, would interbreed).

From my experience with dart frogs and what I've heard over the years, the animals will either hybridize and produce fertile offspring, or won't cross to begin with due to differences in their complex courting rituals (not seeing the other animal as an option, which may be instinct, or may be how they are raised).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

see http://www.tracyhicks.com/EdK.htm for some hybrid pictures.


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