# What to do with old supplements?



## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

I have a few 2/3 full jars of expired Repashy dust. I could simply toss them, but I feel like there has to be a better use for them! Does anyone have any good ideas?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I use my expired supplements to dust ff's right before I put them into new cultures in an effort to keep mites off of them.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

With the calcium I would just mix some into your substrate hoping to get some of that into your micro fauna. a bit into you cultures as well. Iv done this a few times over the last few years.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I use my expired supplements to dust ff's right before I put them into new cultures in an effort to keep mites off of them.


Yep. I do this with my expired sups as well. I find it does help out with mitigating mites in cultures...


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I use my expired supplements to dust ff's right before I put them into new cultures in an effort to keep mites off of them.


I have tried this and all of the flies were dead the next day, are you just using a very small amount when doing this??


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Shinosuke said:


> I have a few 2/3 full jars of expired Repashy dust.


That sounds WEIRD....


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Feed it to your isopods


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

bsr8129 said:


> I have tried this and all of the flies were dead the next day, are you just using a very small amount when doing this??


I've never experienced this problem. I don't use a ton of old supplement to do this, just enough to cover the flies.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

I'm with Frogparty, feed it to your springtails and isopods. They should clean it up! 

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

frogparty said:


> Feed it to your isopods


I find at a certain point the stuff in the cup after a couple dustings doesnt hang onto the flies as well - Ive just been washing this down the sink - now it will get dusted in with the isos.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I used to give old supplements to my isopods, but as I've researched some info from Ed, I'm not sure this is a good idea. I've quite doing it. 
There is a form of vitamin E called Tocopherols in the supplement. Isopods do not process tocopherols. Instead, it is sequestered in the isopod, accumulating to levels much higher than found in the wild. If your frog eats enough of these, the vitamin E level in the frog can rise higher than normal. If the vitamin E level in the frog gets high enough, it can block the intake of other vitamins, like vitamins A and D. If levels get high enough to block the Vitamin D completely, then calcium can't be processed properly. If the blood calcium level gets low enough, the frog can go into spasms and die.


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

Repashy Bug Burger has both mixed tocopherols and Vit E, so does dog food both of which are commonly fed to isopods. Maybe someone can post information on Vit E accumulating in isopods. 

Of course too much of anything would not be good. But an occasional mixing of expired Calcium Plus should not interfere with uptake of Vit D or Calcium. 

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I used to give old supplements to my isopods, but as I've researched some info from Ed, I'm not sure this is a good idea. I've quite doing it.
> There is a form of vitamin E called Tocopherols in the supplement. Isopods do not process tocopherols. Instead, it is sequestered in the isopod, accumulating to levels much higher than found in the wild. If your frog eats enough of these, the vitamin E level in the frog can rise higher than normal. If the vitamin E level in the frog gets high enough, it can block the intake of other vitamins, like vitamins A and D. If levels get high enough to block the Vitamin D completely, then calcium can't be processed properly. If the blood calcium level gets low enough, the frog can go into spasms and die.


Well...damn, that doesn't sound good.

D


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I use Repashy and other supplements expired as Rusty said. In addition, I put a little on the shelves and around the cultures flies against mites. If it works? I do not know, but when I do it I have no problems with mites.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

SilverLynx said:


> Repashy Bug Burger has both mixed tocopherols and Vit E, so does dog food both of which are commonly fed to isopods. Maybe someone can post information on Vit E accumulating in isopods.
> 
> Of course too much of anything would not be good. But an occasional mixing of expired Calcium Plus should not interfere with uptake of Vit D or Calcium.
> 
> ...


It's been posted more than a few times. It's quite simple to search for "tocopherols", "sequester", or "sequestering", and you'll see Ed's discussions of it.

Personally, I truly hate the argument, "such and such company puts it in their product, so it has to be 100% safe". According to that rule of thought, smoking is good for you, we should put the lead back into paint, and asbestos should really be put back into wider use. Max point's out that Arsenic has been used widely on pressure treated woods that are used in children's playgrounds across the country. There are commercials for lawyers on every minute of every day, offering to sue drug companies for releasing drugs that are not safe for use. Just because a product is in use, does NOT mean it is safe.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that Allen is wrong. If Allen has information that proves Ed's fears on this are unfounded, I'd love to hear them. But simply claiming "Jimmy does it so HAS to be safe", is a flawed argument.

My personal choice is that foods with tocopherols do make it into my isopod cultures, but the isopod populations in my vivs do not receive foods with tocopherols.

Another thing to consider is minimizing your risk. You have 1/4 cup of "trash". Do you add a potential risk to your frogs, or do you throw it away? Keep in mind that it is NOT about wasting $10 worth of vitamins. You have already used the value of those vitamins, haven't you? Additionally, it is NOT $10 worth of vitamins. At this point, you are considering using it for bug food. Bug food is cheap. You could replace it with 43 cents worth of rotting veggies. Therefor it is only 43 cents you are saving. 
So for 43 cents I can remove a potential risk for my frogs. I choose to remove that risk.


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## kingfisherfleshy (Mar 17, 2012)

Hmm - also interested in more on the vitamin E issues.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

kingfisherfleshy said:


> Hmm - also interested in more on the vitamin E issues.


Unfortunately, the proof may not be found. Nobody is spending money to see how much vitamin E an isopod will sequester, and at what point it could interfere with your frogs. It is simply a concern that each of us has to make our own decision about.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Since the main part of it is CaCO3 could we also use it to substitute for limestone in clay substrate/backgrounds? It'd also add vitamins for bacteria/microfauna to degrade and add a bit more organic to the mix.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Dendrobait said:


> Since the main part of it is CaCO3 could we also use it to substitute for limestone in clay substrate/backgrounds? It'd also add vitamins for bacteria/microfauna to degrade and add a bit more organic to the mix.


Vitamins lose potency incredibly fast in warm, humid conditions. Good clay recipes should already be severely limiting the organics, not adding a bit more organics. Clay substrates are trying to get away from organics.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

SilverLynx said:


> Repashy Bug Burger has both mixed tocopherols and Vit E, so does dog food both of which are commonly fed to isopods. Maybe someone can post information on Vit E accumulating in isopods.
> 
> Of course too much of anything would not be good. But an occasional mixing of expired Calcium Plus should not interfere with uptake of Vit D or Calcium.
> 
> ...


Oh, I thought of one more thing. Did you know that the original Repashy Superfly was formulated with tocopherols? Ed was concerned about the levels of tocopherol for exactly the reasons I already stated. Ed and Allen Repashy discussed it and Allen changed his formula to eliminate tocopherol sequestering. I'm sorry I don't have time to look it up, but it is right here on Dendroboard. Probably in that first, really long, Superfly thread.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

In what part of the isopod are these tocopherols accumulated? 
If its in the exoskeleton.....which is routinely molted as isopods age, then arent you limiting the amount that can theoretically be sequestered by the isopod? 

On the other hand, if it is bound up in the soft tissue (more likely) then bioaccumulation would progress linearly (or near, dependant upon availability) throughout the life of the isopod. 

I need to read that literature


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogparty said:


> In what part of the isopod are these tocopherols accumulated?
> If its in the exoskeleton.....which is routinely molted as isopods age, then arent you limiting the amount that can theoretically be sequestered by the isopod?
> 
> On the other hand, if it is bound up in the soft tissue (more likely) then bioaccumulation would progress linearly (or near, dependant upon availability) throughout the life of the isopod.
> ...


It is stored in the liver. 


Ed said:


> Tocopherols can be from a natural source which means that doesn't rule them out as a preservative (they function as an antioxident). For example tocopherols can be extracted from sunflower oil.
> 
> This is why I wanted a discussion on it.. In addition to competing for uptake if ingested at the same time as other fat soluble vitamins (A and D3), vitamin E is stored in the liver. Techinically the isopods would be acting as a heavily fortified food (I also commented on this with respect to fruit fly media in the Repashy Thread). In the wild the isopods would aquire it via consumption of plant materials and not handed to them in a much denser nutrient packet.
> 
> Excess vitamin E can result in bleeding disorders if over supplemented. The isopods need some level of vitamin E for various reasons (and one of the reasons they accumulate high levels of it). Normally toxicity of E is uncommon but can occur from fortified foods. It could just mean that dog or fish food as a solid diet could be a concern. Technically this could also occur from excess supplements cleaned up in enclosures (but this may also be more dispersed due to springtails etc). Personally I'm don't think I'm concerned about isopods that are seeded into the enclosures but if people are culturing them as part of the routine diet for the frogs.


This can be followed in my culturing thread. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...opods-woodlice-springtails-14.html#post613528

I made the decision to limit tocopherols in my culturing. They do get some ultra high dog food and fish food, but there is a lot of potato and banana flake in my personal instant feed. Additionally, they get fresh banana, pumpkin, and other veggies from time to time.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Pumilo said:


> Vitamins lose potency incredibly fast in warm, humid conditions. Good clay recipes should already be severely limiting the organics, not adding a bit more organics. Clay substrates are trying to get away from organics.


I should say perhaps the vitamins would provide additional nutrients for the bacteria biofilm that stabilizes these substrates to form faster.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Does anyone know then if the tocopherols/Vitamin E will degrade. Say, if you used really old vitamin supplement or a very old dusty container of fishfood.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I used to give old supplements to my isopods, but as I've researched some info from Ed, I'm not sure this is a good idea. I've quite doing it.
> There is a form of vitamin E called Tocopherols in the supplement. Isopods do not process tocopherols. Instead, it is sequestered in the isopod, accumulating to levels much higher than found in the wild. If your frog eats enough of these, the vitamin E level in the frog can rise higher than normal. If the vitamin E level in the frog gets high enough, it can block the intake of other vitamins, like vitamins A and D. If levels get high enough to block the Vitamin D completely, then calcium can't be processed properly. If the blood calcium level gets low enough, the frog can go into spasms and die.


Isn't that the same chemical that causes the color change in cooked lobster shells?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Splash&Dash said:


> Isn't that the same chemical that causes the color change in cooked lobster shells?


No, lobster and shrimp change color because the astaxanthin in their shell is broken free of the protein.



Ed said:


> I'm going to ask an off the wall question here.. if someone has a ton of grey isopods would they mind taking a sample and boiling them? I stocked some enclosures so I'm low at the moment. If they turn a different color that indicates that they are using a carotenoid bound with a protein. If it is pink, red or orange after heating, it is probably astaxanthin like you see in shrimp or lobsters. (that is why they turn red when heated, the astaxanthin in the shell is broken free of the protein).
> 
> Ed


We did that experiment for Ed, with both dwarf whites and dwarf gray/striped, and neither one showed any color change.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...opods-woodlice-springtails-15.html#post613832


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The pigments in the shell of terrestrial isopods are not of carotenoid derivation but instead are a group of pigments called ommins and ommatins... These if I remember correctly are derived from tryptophan and cannot be used for sequestered pigments in the frogs. 

I'll see if I can find where I put the isopod article. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## SilverLynx (Aug 29, 2013)

I would like to see the scientific study that pertains to mixed Tocopherols bioaccumulation in isopods. I would assume that the Repashy formulation has safe levels of Mixed Tocopherols and Vit E for feeder insects. I did read one study involving heavy metals, etc, in marine isopods and another one involving the terrestrial Isopod Porcellio, but none on Vit E/mixed Tocopherols. If someone could post that info, that would be great.

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> No, lobster and shrimp change color because the astaxanthin in their shell is broken free of the protein.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh, i remember coming across the picture with the cocktail sauce awhile ago and getting a good laugh from it. It where I recall getting the shell info from as well (though I clearly didn't remember the details)

Sorry about that


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