# Growing moss???



## firefishbrain (Jan 20, 2008)

Hi, i'm new here, and I was wondering about moss... after browsing through some of the most AMAZING setups, I noticed that they actually have moss growing on the substrate, which makes the setup look much more realistic, its a nice touch. I have also been checking out some online stores, but none of them seem to sell it... where can I get some, or how do I raise it? it it a hitchhiker from other plants??? before I attempt a setup, I want to know all the ins and outs of what I like, and possible want to do...


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## UmbraSprite (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi...

Some sphagnum moss occasionally comes back. Riccia fluitans which is an aquatic plant will grow in humid environments and looks similar to moss. You can special order live moss (or occasionally find it offered) and then some people just collect it wild.

In the past I have done this with local mosses for my display tanks. You take a risk of introducing harmful organisms so that is something to keep in mind. The worst I have gotten are nasty looking spiders who do a number on my flies!


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I buy all my moss at aquarium shops.
when setting up a viv I mix moss + buttermilk and spread it everywhere I want the moss to grow. I also put chunks of moss in very humid places.

what works best for me is javamoss and christmass moss. some tropical livermoss is doing well in some tanks, but in most cases it has died on me. ricia gets of well but is out-competed by the javamoss after a while.
spaghnum that was used to cover roots of bromeliads or orchids has come back to live in some of my vivs an can look good too.


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## firefishbrain (Jan 20, 2008)

thanks much guys, but let me try to grasp this concept, you pour buttermilk into your viv? as in the bad smelling cream? what does that do exactly, but then again I could have completely misinterpretted it.
so what does everyone prefer, riccia or java moss, those seem to be the most accesible.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

no you didn't misinterpret, yes I put buttermilk in my vivs. it increases the acidity wich is very good for the moss and will make it grow faster at first. it creates a fungus about two days after you have put it on your background that will stay there for a few days.
then you have to make sure that everything is misted very often and the fungus will disapear. moss will start to grow in the places with the right conditions.
it doesn't smell at all but maybe that's because my vivs are well ventilated.
you can do it without the buttermilk, it just gives it a boost.


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## 013 (Aug 9, 2006)

Imho, buttermilk is no must. Could as well be lemon juice or peat. I must say my java moss grows abundantly without acid. So i don't even know if one needs dairy products.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

you're absolutely right: not a must. It even doesn't make a difference in the long run but it's just a trick to get the mos going faster. (here it has proven specially effective on wood and stone etc.)

(ot: 013... rings a bell, just can't figure out where I've seen you before :lol: )


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Every time I hear about a lawn of moss being natural... I just kinda have to sigh. Moss is perfectly natural... but in a rainforest is generally not on the forest floor where the PDFs are... unless the canopy has been distrubed. Mosses usually hang out with the epiphytes.

That being said... especially since we make most of our epiphytes look like terrestrials anyways... moss gardens can be very tricky in our tanks, with different mosses doing better in different cases. Some need really high light, some like it wet, some like it dry, and some just flat out die in tropical tanks.

In areas where the mosses get a chance to dry out a bit and aren't sitting on a moist to soggy substrate (usually ephytically) terrestrial mosses do great and depending on the type you have, can spread like wild fire. A couple small starter patches over a background like treefern panels, and you can find the stuff popping up all over the terrarium that the moss likes. Kyoto moss is also a bonsai moss that you can buy spores of and put in your tank. This is also where the buttermilk comes into play... some buttermilk (or beer, I've heard that one too) and some moss in a blender, make a puree... looks like crap for a bit but then the moss grows like crazy... assuming you put it in places it likes to grow (this isn't always where you want it to grow...).

Sheet moss and pillow moss are two mosses often sold for frog tanks... and the success with this live stuff is really hit or miss. The pillow moss is the harder of the two, and because these mosses are usually temperate (and just flat out like more air movement and less wetness, or just drier tanks) they tend to die some not so pretty deaths... but they'd be good (but expensive) candidates for the buttermilk/beer slurry (rather than trying to get the current patches to do well, just break it up and have it do all new growth... best way to go!). Black Jungle occassionally sells the truely tropical moss, but it's not available often, and sells out quickly. In the past I've used this great dried sheet moss that often comes back to life, but I've not seen it distributed in a while.

In wet tanks that have soggy substrate and/or get splashed with water from water features a lot, you'll just rot out the above mosses, so then you'll want to try the before mentioned semi-aquatic mosses (or in the case of Riccia, the moss look-a-like). There are very few truely aquatic mosses (and for the life of me I can't remember what kind is truely aquatic) but the most popular fish mosses are actually also excellent soggy mosses! It can take a bit to get them established terrestrially, and they really like good lighting, but if its wet enough for them they take off where other mosses would rot. They don't mind stagnant, they don't mind boggy. Examples are Java moss, Riccia, and sphagnum moss (which is often bought as the long fiber dried out stuff, and it comes back to life if it likes the conditions).


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> Every time I hear about a lawn of moss being natural... I just kinda have to sigh. Moss is perfectly natural... but in a rainforest is generally not on the forest floor where the PDFs are... unless the canopy has been distrubed. Mosses usually hang out with the epiphytes.


Ahhh, but that beautiful green carpet just looks soooooo lovely ... 
Here's a post with some pics of the Michigan State University frog vivs we saw at the Michigan froggers meeting this past weekend (built by Dboard members, and containing matierials and critters donated by other Dboard members). They all use leaf litter on the substrate. I never realized how cool that could look. Not to mention more accurate.



> Sheet moss and pillow moss are two mosses often sold for frog tanks... and the success with this live stuff is really hit or miss. The pillow moss is the harder of the two, and because these mosses are usually temperate (and just flat out like more air movement and less wetness, or just drier tanks) they tend to die some not so pretty deaths


I sell both, and the sheet moss tends to go completely brown before slowly coming back to life in about two months. The pillow moss starts out much greener, and stays that way, but spreads very slowly. It's better as an accent than trying to totally cover the substrate with it. After seeing the vivs this weekend, I'm thinking of doing my next one with leaf litter with just a few mounds of pillow moss poking up out of it. Both can be sensitive to moisture and light levels. I have T-8 6500Ks about 18 inches above the substrate, and both seem to do OK with daily misting. 



> In wet tanks that have soggy substrate and/or get splashed with water from water features a lot, you'll just rot out the above mosses, so then you'll want to try the before mentioned semi-aquatic mosses (or in the case of Riccia, the moss look-a-like).


I've found that at elevations close to the viv's water table, they definitely tend to die off. And it is an ugly, slimy, black death.



> There are very few truely aquatic mosses (and for the life of me I can't remember what kind is truely aquatic) but the most popular fish mosses are actually also excellent soggy mosses! It can take a bit to get them established terrestrially, and they really like good lighting, but if its wet enough for them they take off where other mosses would rot. They don't mind stagnant, they don't mind boggy. Examples are Java moss, Riccia, and sphagnum moss (which is often bought as the long fiber dried out stuff, and it comes back to life if it likes the conditions).


You can also order live spagnum moss from some of the scientific suppy stores such as Ward's Natural Science. I've sprinkled it on top of some of the dried spagnum, and it establishes iteslf quickly. They also carry some liverworts that really like the swampy conditions in my bog terrarium, too.
Jim
(edited for spelling)


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Just have leaf litter on the bottom (where the moss wouldn't grow that well anyways) and moss up near the top with the epiphytes 

I wonder how the pillow moss would do with the blender/buttermilk deal... might be one way to get it better established. Your good lighting is what is really getting the moss going!

Where they turn to black slimely death, and you really want moss, toss some patches of the aquatic mosses. I take peices grown aquatically and toss them on the pool edges half in and half out of the water. Keeps the patch from drying out as it wicks from the pool of water, and if the pool edge is wet enough it will happily take over and spread where it is wet enough.

I've had crap luck with live sphagnum collected from outdoor ponds... the stuff was grown in full sun and just didn't like adapting to less light. On the other hand, tank regrown sphagnum will grow under even under just one or two flourescent bulbs... I love liverworts but I had dead sphagnum moss that was once live... tho my recent bag of sphagnum moss has come to life in every case I've used it :shock: I'd rather just ask you to stick the cool liverworts in a bag and send them to me than deal with the live outdoor grown stuff


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> I'd rather just ask you to stick the cool liverworts in a bag and send them to me than deal with the live outdoor grown stuff


Check out these: http://wardsci.com/search.asp?t=ss&ss=living+liverwort&x=10&y=5

Both seem to grow well in peat under my fluorescents.

I haven't been able to propagate enough to sell yet.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> I've had crap luck with live sphagnum collected from outdoor ponds... the stuff was grown in full sun and just didn't like adapting to less light.


I had the same thing happen with my first batch. The second batch I received in the fall, and it had already turned bright red. It has since greened up nicely. Maybe because I received it right as it was going dormant, so it was able to adjust to the lower light in the tanks?


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## andrew__ (Sep 23, 2007)

Here's a good site with information on the various aquatic mosses: http://aquamoss.net/Moss-List.htm


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

> Every time I hear about a lawn of moss being natural... I just kinda have to sigh. Moss is perfectly natural... but in a rainforest is generally not on the forest floor where the PDFs are... unless the canopy has been distrubed. Mosses usually hang out with the epiphytes


I have to respectfully disagree. I think it really depends on the area you visit. Some areas have a lot of leaf litter, others have a lot of moss. Almost all areas have a mixture. If you are in lowland forest or coastal forest, then I can see your point. But, higher in elevation things change and there are an abundance of epiphytic, lithophytic, and terrestrial mosses and liverworts. Even low occurring epiphytic and lithophytic growth, visually gives the "ground" a mossed over look in some areas. And Esp. since we are only recreating a relatively small area (let's say under 3'X3') it's very easy to find a naturally occuring lawn of moss like that in the wild. It doesn't represent the system, but we can always make adjustments for that. 

I do agree with you that the op and others should get the correct kind of moss for the situation they are trying to create. Moss can be pretty specific to the situation they desire. I think that's why java moss and other aquarium related mosses are so popular. They really don't have too many demands esp. in the way of water conditions. And the use of buttermilk or beer/sugar or white glue is certainly not a necessity. But as Nathalie said it certainly helps establish other types and in certain situations.


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## firefishbrain (Jan 20, 2008)

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the "lawns" (even though I have seen them), persay, just nice full looking patches, and occasional little bits throughout the tank, that just make it seem wild. 
What counts as high lighting. having two reef tanks, this is heated discussion, to say the least, do you guys use the watts per gallon concept, or do you go with the intensity of the light (incandescent, pc's, t-8's, HO, VHO, t-5, metal halides, for example), will it matter if I'm throwing for example, 4 24w pc's, than to just put 1 70w metal halide? I'll use my better instinct that i shouldn't even think of halides in a viv that would generally tries to recreate the bottom of a rainforest floor. on that subject, what lights should I go with, for say something between 10-20 gallon aquarium??? I obviously know that it would depend on the plant, but what would be able to provide for a veriety of plant species, are there defined rules (broms need _enter type of light here_, and riccia thrives in _""_)? sorry, just every book and article i've read has yet to answer this question.
Thanks for all the replies, and putting up with my moderately in depth and potentially dumb questions.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I have some tanks with "lawns" and some tanks with leaf litter ... usually I combine the two (depending on the type of frog).
imho 10 gallons (or even 50) of rainforrest is never going to be "natural" and will never look very much like the real thing. half the plants we use in our tanks aren't even from the right continent or from the rainforrest. I just want something that is well suited for the frogs and pleasing to look at.

I have many different types of moss in my tanks. it is true that they won't always grow in places you want them to and sometimes pop up in weird places after a while.

I use different types of vesicularia








pillow moss








and tropicl liverworts if I can find them








the spagnum I use to fill up the wholes and cracks in the wood and to mount ephifits usually comes back to live too








I also use ricia but it gets out-competed by the "java moss". I have also used some moss that came in with "tropical"plants I bought and that does well to (to small to take a good picture of, sorry).
I have tried kyoto moss but that didn't take off in my vivs.


with lights I think there are 2 aspects that are important:
1) the color of the light. as not all light is usefull for plants you have to find a light that makes the plants thrive but also makes the tank look good for you.
In general more blue (for growing) and red (for blooming) is good for plants but can make your set-up look purple
2) the light output in lumen (or actually in lux but with a 10 or 20 gallon tank this isn't that important as the light doesn't have to travel far. usually more watt means more lumen (with the same type of lamps)

I think the best thing available right now are the T5-HO lamps or compact fluorecents. 
for small tanks the T5's aren't really an option I think because the smallest one is 22 inch long.

I usually use Dulux-L type (4-pin) CF lights. the "normal" screw-in type of CF with the ballast incorparated can't be found in the right colors over here so I only use them for froglet tanks and there is hardly any moss growing in them. maybe you have a bigger choice over there.

my plant's favorite lamp is a 36watt 4-pin CF, light color 860 with a reflector on top to maximize the light that gets to the plants.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Manuran - Yes, you can find moss all over different areas of rainforest depending on light and elevation... but I'm also talking about where the frogs are found as well. I saw some gorgeous "moss gardens" in areas with the broken canopy in the low to mid elevation forests where D. auratus in Costa Rica frequented... only to find they avioded those uncommon pockets for the darker leaf litter undistrubed forest floors. That's not to say the pumilio didn't enjoy them... as the moss gardens usually hosted some plants that would give them more places to raise their young (a limiting factor for them) and they wanted to take advantage of the temporary increase in real estate while they could. This isn't to say that's how it always is... but its the majority for the terrestrial species at least.

jehitch - those liverworts look cool! In my larger display tank(s) I'll have to give them a go if I've got a good spot for them. What conditions have you found them to like? As for the sphagnum... the dormancy is the best time to deal with the sphagnum moss as they will "come back" having adapted to the lesser light and will grow to love it... but if they grew and adapted for full sun out in the pond they just won't do well with the sudden change (they might be able to be acclimated tho, but that's pretty tedious...).

NathalieB... gorgeous green as always! This is a topic that has come up a lot and I'm probably going to turn it into an article so it can be easily referenced... would I be able to use your pics (with credit given)?

And who thought the moss question would be so complicated


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

Hi Kero,

I can appreciate your experiences and understand where you are coming from. I guess my point is that there are numerous situations (even concerning times of day and weather) and that you can and will find frogs in the areas with moss at times and among the leaf litter at times. In the bright areas and the dark areas. And since we are only trying to recreate a small slice of the forest, I think no matter which way you go it is probably "natural". It's like taking a snap shot and choosing what area we are going for. I guess this is a decent way of doing things, as long as our choices don't hurt the particular frogs we are keeping. On top of this I agree with NathalieB that we need to enjoy the look as well. 

Two side notes. There are situations out there where you can find dartfrogs living among a lot of moss!  And remember there are mosses and liverworts that do occur in dark areas as well.

Hope your article turns out well. I look forward to reading it.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

no problem if you want to use my pic. let me know if you need more or better pictures. (I can ask my husband to take them as I am not a hero with a camera :lol: )


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> jehitch - those liverworts look cool! In my larger display tank(s) I'll have to give them a go if I've got a good spot for them. What conditions have you found them to like? As for the sphagnum... the dormancy is the best time to deal with the sphagnum moss as they will "come back" having adapted to the lesser light and will grow to love it... but if they grew and adapted for full sun out in the pond they just won't do well with the sudden change (they might be able to be acclimated tho, but that's pretty tedious...).


I have them growing in a bog terrarium with peat substrate, along with a couple sundews, a venus fly trap, a purple pitcher plant, and a couple unknown ferns. I have a couple eastern newt efts in there, too. It gets pretty wet in there, and the liverworts are doing much better than the mosses I tried (woodland species that I think would have preferred it a bit drier).



firefishbrain said:


> I'll use my better instinct that i shouldn't even think of halides in a viv that would generally tries to recreate the bottom of a rainforest floor. on that subject, what lights should I go with, for say something between 10-20 gallon aquarium???


A couple 23 watt daylight-balanced CFs in 5.5" reflectors should light up a 10 or 20 gallon with no problem. I lit up a 40 gallon breeder with three of them in 8" reflectors, and had great plant growth. In a pinch, I've picked up the "lightstick" type 18" fluorecent fixtures and used them over a 10 gallon. I can't find those in 6500K, but if I combine the normal white one with a "grow light" it usually gives a reasonable color balance. I don't know if that would be bright enough to get the plants blooming, though.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Thanks Nathalie! Much easier to talk about mosses when I've actually got pictures of the mosses I'm talking about... and I just don't have as nice pictures as you do  Now I just need a good Riccia in tank pic...


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

KeroKero said:


> Now I just need a good Riccia in tank pic...


I had a tank with a nice riccia carpet berfore the vesicularia completely took over. I'll look for pictures of it. If I don't find it, I have one tank that is starting to grow in with riccia so if you haven't found a good picture in a couple of weeks I'll take a picture of that.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Thanks, it would be appreciated


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## tzen (Nov 22, 2007)

Great discussion and links on moss!
I vote a sticky!


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## andy83 (May 31, 2006)

Nice pictures NathalieB.

This moss is mostly kyoto from spore but there are a few other species that are mixing in nicely. It grows where it wants to and most of it prefers a certain level of moisture and enjoys as much light as you can give it.

I went away for a week a while back and one of the timers got stuck in the on position so my tank had one 96watt bulb on 24/7. I had people come to check but only during the day. Anyway, most of the plants suffered slightly but the moss was green as could be and enjoyed the extra light.

The more yellow stuff in the center of the pictures is sphagnum coming back to life.


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