# toxicity of spray adhesive



## Dye-Lohn (Aug 27, 2006)

i missed some spots on my pumillio tank for the coco bedding adhesive idea. is it possible to use spray adhesive for those few spots, or is it toxic?
-dylan


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

There have been a few topics on this, and all of them have pretty much agreed that this stuff is natsy and shouldn't be used in a viv. If I remember right, someone called 3M about their spray adheasive and the rep said that it shouldn't be used in areas containing food, which is our best "yardstick" for if something if frog safe or not. 

You'd be better off removing the frogs, donig the touch up and waiting for it to cure before adding the frogs again.


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## Dye-Lohn (Aug 27, 2006)

i dont even have the frogs yet. so do you think it would be possible?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Yea, that'd be ideal.


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## Dye-Lohn (Aug 27, 2006)

ok, thano you for all your help(i think youve helped me in previous posts as well)
-dylan


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Hey, that's what this place is for - passing on information. Info doesn't do any good if it's not being used or distributed.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Hi Mike,

Just curious what sort of yardstick we are using here for toxicity. Great Stuff isn't food safe and neither is half the silicone yet we use that without a second thought. Is there something in particular about this spray? I agree that it is something to think about, but it doesn't seem like we are applying these standards consistently.

Marcos


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Good point. I consider food safe to be the "best" level of safety. If something isn't food safe according to the mfg then why. Is it because they don't want to be liable, they didn't test it because of its intended application, or is there actually something harmful in it. 

I'd have to dig up the thread/MSDS to be 100% positive, but it contining volitals springs to mind as the reason not to use it.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Before the pdf hobby bit me...my previous money sucking hobby was car audio...I used to use the spray adhesive to upholster my cabinets and door pods...brings back that new car smell for months...due to this fact, I would not use spray adhesive in a viv...not the ones I'm familiar with anyhow.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Yeah, most adhesive sprays have VOC's in them if I remember correctly. I think most of those evaporate pretty quickly. The problem with the MSDS route is that it only gives you data on the raw chemicals and the subsequent curing process. Those phases are important in that they could leave residuals in the enclosure, but what also needs to be taken into consideration is degradation of the substance. In 95% of these cases we are talking about polymers and polymers can have various additives and be subject to various kinds of degradation.

I've looked for more detailed information about degradation of spray polyurethane foams (great stuff) and there isn't much out there. I think there is a lot we don't know, but I do think your hunch is right that perhaps the less stuff in the polymer stew, the less VOCs, etc., the better.

It is still a gray area, I think. I mean look at epoxy. Epoxy is a tried and true material used for zoo displays and all sorts of other stuff. However, there seems to be some indication that bisphenol-B, a common epoxy component, may have some serious impacts on reproduction (google "bisphenol-b endocrine" and you will see what I am talking about).

In our application there are probably two major ways that a polymer is going to degrade (1) water contact and (2) microbial attack. From what I can tell, it is anybody's guess what kind of chemical stew you will get as a result. You might think that it is insigificant because of the amount, but look at those endocrine disruptor papers and you will see it takes a ridiculously small amount of that junk to potentially do a lot of damage.

In my case, the jury is still out, but I am wary. I think there is a wide gap in knowledge in this area and it would be an interesting field of study for the bio folks out there. At any rate, I guess in the end, we should be very careful about saying if something is safe when what we mean is that it is common and to the best of our knowledge there aren't any issues. That might seem like nit-picking, but I think there is a difference.

Personally, I avoid anything that isn't food safe or rated for constant contact with water. I guess at the end of the day, I don't really trust that many chemicals are really tested to be safe even when they are meant for human contact and much less when it is a foam intended to insulate your attic or a can of quick dry spray in this case. There are just too many examples of things out there that we were told were OK that turned out not to be (lookup PBDE for some examples there).

At any rate, I guess working in HAZMAT/HAZCOM and seeing chemical after chemical recalled, I give it a bit of thought. It freaks me out to see stuff the Army banned years ago (and if the Army bans it, it must be bad news) on the shelves at the big box hardware stores where a MSDS isn't required and the person is likely going to work with the stuff at home without protective equipment.

I do think the conrete binder looks like it may be a pretty good deal. If I remember correctly, similar chemicals are used in agricultural applications where degredation is expected and that particular polymer is rather innocuous I think. I think some of the clay applications look pretty promising too (see Ben E's compost tank) and hope we see more vivarium development in that direction.

Marcos


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> I think there is a wide gap in knowledge in this area and it would be an interesting field of study for the bio folks out there. At any rate, I guess in the end, we should be very careful about saying if something is safe when what we mean is that it is common and to the best of our knowledge there aren't any issues. That might seem like nit-picking, but I think there is a difference.


I completely agree. Are there people out there doing studies in this area that you know of? It's something I'm interested in but don't have the background to do the work. 

I too agree that making the destinction between what's actually safe and what is assumed safe by trial is a worthwhile destinction. I made a viv safe materials thread the ended up dying, but I made that very distinction there because it's a very importat one that gets over looked regularly.


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## Dye-Lohn (Aug 27, 2006)

so dont use the spray adhesive?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Can't really say without knowing the product; I probably wouldn't, but I am on the paranoid side. However, from this and a couple other posts I gather that at least a few other people have reservations about the stuff.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'm on the more libral side about putting stuff in my tanks and I wouldn't.


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