# Another "can you replace crickets with..." question (flies and minnows)



## Ballardst (Feb 24, 2016)

I'd like to get a Fire Bellied Toad, but I don't live best a pet store that sells crickets, and I've never been able to keep them alive for longer than a week or so (they're also more of a pain than the pet they're feeding...).

Would flightless fruit flies and minnows work? I can get a culture of the one and a whole tank of the other periodically.

If not, is there a combination of feeder species I could use without constantly getting to a store?

I've kept other small carnivores, but this will be my first amphibian.

Thanks!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You could replace the crickets with fish. There is an old paper on it 

see Modzelewski, E.H.; Culley, D.D. Jr.; 1974, Growth responses of the bullfrog Rana catesbiana fed various live foods. Herpetologica 30(4): 396-405)
The study was done well before there was a lot of work done on amphibian nutrition and was with an eye towards commecial farming of the frogs. 

The primary limitations to the study involved the fact that the crickets and worms didn't get dusted with a supplement before feeding so as a result there were nutritional deficiencies. The interesting part is that a diet fed with fish, crickets and worms at the same time, no overt signs of deficiencies were noted. 

Instead of minnows (a number of which contain high levels of thiaminase) you might want to culture livebearers. 

some comments 

Ed


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

Never seen a fire-belly toad(Bombina orientalis) eat a fish!,so i would say no to using fish instead of crickets.You just have to learn how to keep crickets alive and gut load them.


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

I had a few when I was a kid and fed them meal worms. I didn't know about vitamin sups and what not 25 years ago, so probably go ahead and dust them as suggested above, but they are easy to keep alive for awhile. Plus, you can pick them up just about anywhere. Heck, even most Walmart's keep them back in the fishing section.

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## GandalfTheGrey (Nov 18, 2015)

You can also try breeding your own crickets. I've found that crickets that you breed yourself are healthier, hardier, and more nutritional. They also last a lot more than a week


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## jimmy rustles (Mar 10, 2013)

How about firebrats?


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## vachyner (Aug 10, 2013)

GandalfTheGrey said:


> You can also try breeding your own crickets. I've found that crickets that you breed yourself are healthier, hardier, and more nutritional. They also last a lot more than a week


But the smell is atrocious!

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## zerelli (Sep 14, 2009)

I never saw them take them but the ones I had in my shop made feeder guppies disappear somehow.



CAPTAIN RON said:


> Never seen a fire-belly toad(Bombina orientalis) eat a fish!,so i would say no to using fish instead of crickets.You just have to learn how to keep crickets alive and gut load them.


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## Ballardst (Feb 24, 2016)

Thanks for the ideas. Guppies seem to be the smallest livebearers, and they can get up to 1.5-2 inches. I know some FBTs eat them, but I'd be hesitant to rely on that unless you sure me I'm being overcautious.

How about a flightless fruit fly culture?

Or I could go with worms, if someone can find a species that's not too fatty/won't cause impaction as a staple.

Right now I'm hoping a mix of red wrigglers, meal worms, and some small fish and/or the flies will do enough variation to keep a FBT happy.


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## GandalfTheGrey (Nov 18, 2015)

vachyner said:


> But the smell is atrocious!
> 
> Sent from my 831C using Tapatalk


That's true...


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## GandalfTheGrey (Nov 18, 2015)

Ballardst said:


> Thanks for the ideas. Guppies seem to be the smallest livebearers, and they can get up to 1.5-2 inches. I know some FBTs eat them, but I'd be hesitant to rely on that unless you sure me I'm being overcautious.
> 
> How about a flightless fruit fly culture?
> 
> ...


Endler's guppies get around 1 inch in length, so they could work in lieu of guppies for smaller FBTs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

GandalfTheGrey said:


> I've found that crickets that you breed yourself are healthier, hardier, and more nutritional.


Point of fact, the main nutritional issue with the crickets is that they just need to be fed for 48 hours before feeding them out. At that point they are going to be as good as any you raise. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ballardst said:


> but I'd be hesitant to rely on that unless you sure me I'm being overcautious.


The above paper demonstrates that they are suitable as a nutritional source. 



Ballardst said:


> How about a flightless fruit fly culture?


Pretty much too small for adult toads. 



Ballardst said:


> Or I could go with worms, if someone can find a species that's not too fatty/won't cause impaction as a staple.


The impaction risk is primarily based on myth and has no real substance. 



Ballardst said:


> Right now I'm hoping a mix of red wrigglers, meal worms, and some small fish and/or the flies will do enough variation to keep a FBT happy.


They don't need variation to be happy. That is simple projection. 
The only real drawback to the fish is that they are much more nutrient dense than invertebrates so they require fewer fish to meet their nutritional needs. 

As for how to feed them, firebelly toads develop a strong feeding response so if you start off feeding them via long tweezers they will associate the tweezers with food and that would enable you to easily feed them the fish. 

Red wrigglers aren't on my list of ideal foods. Red wrigglers(Eisenia fetida) have been shown to be toxic to a wide number of vertebrates (see Kobayashi, Hideshi, et al. "Toxicity of coelomic fluid of the earthworm Eisenia foetida to vertebrates but not invertebrates: probable role of sphingomyelin." Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part C: Toxicology & Pharmacology 128.3 (2001): 401-411.) however I know they are fed quite frequently to amphibians with few if any reports of problems but I'm cautious with them as a feeder. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ballardst (Feb 24, 2016)

Oh, ok. I was only worried about guppy size, so it subs like either Endlers or worms will work just fine.

Why is it a drawback that fish are more nutrient dense? It sounds like a guppy or two a week, or a diet of worms, would work fine.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


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