# How to get big and healthy frogs



## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

I have always wondered how to get frogs big and healthy.
I can't find a thread about this, or the threads are very general. 

What I mean is: how to get your frogs ( more specifically: All Tinctorius and Phyllobates Terribilis) very big? From small animals when they crawl out of the water to very big and powerful after one year. 
People say give them fruit flies, isopods, lice, ... but I personally do not know many people who can raise young Tinctorius to huge animals, most of the time they will not be extraordinary big. 
Import frogs, import Tinctorius (not wildcaught) are usually a lot bigger. How is it possible? You give them protein? You give them specific products to grow? 

I hope everyone will take part in this discussion so we can learn from eachother and all get big and healthy frogs.


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## scooter7728 (Sep 1, 2014)

I'm new to to scene still but I don't think any tinc is full grown after a year. Maybe I'm wrong, mine are about a year old and are about half the size of full grown ones the breeder had that I bought them from, (they were huge). Regular feedings and vitamins would be key though as with anything. I wouldn't over feed them either that would just make them fatter.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

bernddd said:


> very big and powerful


It sounds hilarious to describe any dart frogs as "very big and powerful" LOL...


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## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

JPP said:


> It sounds hilarious to describe any dart frogs as "very big and powerful" LOL...


What sounds hilarious about that? Don't know what you mean. 
It surprises me you haven't seen a Tinctorius or Phyllobates Terribilis that is not big and powerful?! 
If you compare adult Tinctorius, you'll notice that there are a lot small individuals in the frog hobby. So "big and powerful" tinctorius are not hilarious at all...


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## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

scooter7728 said:


> I'm new to to scene still but I don't think any tinc is full grown after a year. Maybe I'm wrong, mine are about a year old and are about half the size of full grown ones the breeder had that I bought them from, (they were huge). Regular feedings and vitamins would be key though as with anything. I wouldn't over feed them either that would just make them fatter.



Thank you, Scooter! It is indeed correct that Tinctorius are not full grown after one year. I just wanted to make a comparison from just crawled out of the water to one year old Tincs, but you've got a point! They are not full grown at the age of one year. You say you have Tincs that are half the size of full grown ones of the breeder, I do not think they'll grow that much after one year to double in size. That is what I mean, your breeder has huge frogs, but somehow we do something wrong in the feeding process to get smaller individuals. Keeping big Tinctorius big is not that hard, but letting them grow is...


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## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

tongo said:


> Can you be more specific to which species of tincs you are comparing? Of course adult tincs will be huge compared to subadults and froglets. You also have to take into account that there are also dwarf species such as bakhuis that are smaller.
> 
> Regular feedings and proper vitamin supplementation should produce healthy adults.



I mean Tinctorius in general. There are some species which are a little bit smaller. What do you mean with healthy adults? What is your definition of healthy? For me the image of a Tinctorius in general is a big frog (also including Tinc Brazil, Bakhuis, etc...) with strong legs. But it surprises me that when you compare Tincs of the same species like Tinctorius Regina, you'll find out that maybe one breeder has beautiful big frogs and another breeder has beautiful healthy frogs that are not as huge. What makes the difference? 

You say vitamin supplementation and regular feedings. I agree, but you can compare that with saying people who eat healthy live longer. What do you have to eat? How many times? Now in frog language: which vitamins are essential to let Tincs grow big. What is the relation between the vitamins? 
Are there certain essential vitamins or feeder animals who can help Tinctorius to become big adult frogs?


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

IME people who produce large frogs do the following.

1. Feed juveniles heavy. Obviously you don't want flies crawling all over them and stressing them out, but it's very difficult to overfeed froglets. I've seen obese frogs but I'm not sure I've ever seen an obese juvenile.

2. Stay on top of supplementation. Make sure you've researched your supplementation and that you're not letting them get old.

3. Avoid breeding siblings. That's probably the biggest factor. You can do everything else right but a couple generations of inbreeding will produce mini-frogs.

Again, these are just my experiences and your mileage may vary.


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## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

Boondoggle said:


> IME people who produce large frogs do the following.
> 
> 1. Feed juveniles heavy. Obviously you don't want flies crawling all over them and stressing them out, but it's very difficult to overfeed froglets. I've seen obese frogs but I'm not sure I've ever seen an obese juvenile.
> 
> ...



Thank you, Boondoggle! Nice addition to the thread! 
What supplementation do you recommend? 
And have you ever heard about the relationship between big tadpoles and big adult frogs? Do you think all (extreme) big adult frogs were big tadpoles?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

two words: delay breeding

Most people keep their frogs in ideal breeding conditions year round so as soon as the frogs are capable of breeding they do. They start putting energy into breeding and not into growing. Ed has written extensively about this on the forum. When the frogs get to a sexable age, separate them and let them continue to grow without any sort of breeding pressure.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Another factor I have noticed is how crowded the froglets are in their grow-out enclosures. I have had siblings from the same clutch in separate containers - one more densely packed and another less so and the less-dense ones grow at a much faster rate. I have no idea if this is just a delay in the size they would have reached under optimal conditions or not, but it certainly seems to slow their growth to be in crowded conditions.

Mark


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## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> two words: delay breeding
> 
> Most people keep their frogs in ideal breeding conditions year round so as soon as the frogs are capable of breeding they do. They start putting energy into breeding and not into growing. Ed has written extensively about this on the forum. When the frogs get to a sexable age, separate them and let them continue to grow without any sort of breeding pressure.


Interesting! Never thought about that. It is something to keep in the back of my head when breeding Tincs. Thank you!


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## bernddd (Jan 19, 2013)

Encyclia said:


> Another factor I have noticed is how crowded the froglets are in their grow-out enclosures. I have had siblings from the same clutch in separate containers - one more densely packed and another less so and the less-dense ones grow at a much faster rate. I have no idea if this is just a delay in the size they would have reached under optimal conditions or not, but it certainly seems to slow their growth to be in crowded conditions.
> 
> Mark


Mark, It's strange that the densely packed grow out slower. I would say the densely packed would have some bigger Tincs in the tank because maybe they think: I have to be "biggest" one soon or I will get crushed by the other ones?  (sorry for my English, hope you can understand!)


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

bernddd said:


> Interesting! Never thought about that. It is something to keep in the back of my head when breeding Tincs. Thank you!


Just worth adding... this can be employed with every species, not just tinctorius


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

bernddd said:


> What sounds hilarious about that? Don't know what you mean.
> It surprises me you haven't seen a Tinctorius or Phyllobates Terribilis that is not big and powerful?!
> If you compare adult Tinctorius, you'll notice that there are a lot small individuals in the frog hobby. So "big and powerful" tinctorius are not hilarious at all...


No, I haven't. Even the largest dart frog is relatively delicate and small compared to many other animals...they're among the last things I would think of as being powerful. Even a Phyllobates Terribilis is smaller than my thumb. So yes, it does sound funny to me to describe any dart frog as "big and powerful".


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

JPP said:


> No, I haven't. Even the largest dart frog is relatively delicate and small compared to many other animals...they're among the last things I would think of as being powerful. Even a Phyllobates Terribilis is smaller than my thumb. So yes, it does sound funny to me to describe any dart frog as "big and powerful".



Unless you have catchers mitt hands Adult Terribs can get a good bit bigger than your thumb.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Frog pool13 said:


> Unless you have catchers mitt hands Adult Terribs can get a good bit bigger than your thumb.


I'm pretty sure he was talking length snout to vent


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

Frog pool13 said:


> Unless you have catchers mitt hands Adult Terribs can get a good bit bigger than your thumb.


Pretty much, I'm 6' 4" and can palm a basketball. But yes, as carola1155 mentioned I was talking snout to vent length.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Don't make the assumption that fast growth rate to a large size = healthy or better. Growing too fast can be problematic as well.

Many of the big powerful animals I see keepers so proud of are actually obese animals that could stand to go on a diet.

There seems to be this fallacious assumption that frogs(or other animals) must be grown big, and fast! This isn't nessesarily a good(or bad thing). Just don't over do it in a quest for large animals too quickly.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

bernddd said:


> Thank you, Boondoggle! Nice addition to the thread!
> What supplementation do you recommend?
> And have you ever heard about the relationship between big tadpoles and big adult frogs? Do you think all (extreme) big adult frogs were big tadpoles?


I don't think you can do better than Repashy supplements. I've seen huge tadpoles morph into tiny frogs. There's probably some correlation but it's not absolute.



carola1155 said:


> two words: delay breeding


How did I forget that?! That should have been the first in my list.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

JPP said:


> So yes, it does sound funny to me to describe any dart frog as "big and powerful".


I've got some bicolor and I'm sure they are convinced they can take me.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> two words: delay breeding
> 
> Most people keep their frogs in ideal breeding conditions year round so as soon as the frogs are capable of breeding they do. They start putting energy into breeding and not into growing. Ed has written extensively about this on the forum. When the frogs get to a sexable age, separate them and let them continue to grow without any sort of breeding pressure.


i spent a good portion of my morning looking for this comment. any idea what the best way is of finding eds comments about delay breeding? he has so many comments and his name is the past tense of every word its difficult to search. thanks


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## zerelli (Sep 14, 2009)

I think that part of it is variation too. How big is a human? Depending on where you ask that question the answer will vary. The genetic variance in size, coupled with close quarters leading to early breeding, and a diet that while adequate is probably not entirely accurate to the wild one would all chip in a little to lead to smaller frogs. It is an anecdotal thing though, as no one has done enough measuring of captive or wild caught animals to actually define what a "big&powerful" (I like the way non-English speakers tend to use more expressive adjectives and I knew what you meant) frog is. I would also point out that smaller weaker animals might be more likely to survive in captivity than in nature. This leads to genes for smaller animals being bred into the population of captive animals. Without a rigorous culling, I would expect that captive animals fed a similar diet would tend to be smaller.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Just a question that may relate to this subject.
Do dart frogs keep growing throughout their lives? Obviously the rate slows down, but it seems to me that my frogs keep getting a little bigger every year. 

Maybe those "big and powerful" frogs, are frogs that are 10+ years old.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

phender said:


> Just a question that may relate to this subject.
> Do dart frogs keep growing throughout their lives? Obviously the rate slows down, but it seems to me that my frogs keep getting a little bigger every year


yes. 



phender said:


> Maybe those "big and powerful" frogs, are frogs that are 10+ years old.


Based on the few population age studies done in dendrobatids highly unlikely given the numbers that could be imported from a population. See for example 
Donnelly, Maureen A. "Reproductive phenology and age structure of Dendrobates pumilio in northeastern Costa Rica." Journal of Herpetology (1989): 362-367.

People underestimate the potential impact of keeping them in conditions that encourage reproduction year round (keeping the sexes seperate isn't enough to prevent resource allocation shifts in the metabolism) as well as diet. 
People forget that an individual frog's participation in breeding doesn't occur for months in the wild, but weeks (for example see Noonan, Brice P., and Philippe Gaucher. "Refugial isolation and secondary contact in the dyeing poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius." Molecular Ecology 15.14 (2006): 4425-4435.). 

In addition one of the classical issues with growth is hypovitaminosis of A and historically people used supplements containing beta carotene and no preformed vitamin A resulting in deficiencies which will reduce growth. 

These are just a couple of the obvious ones off the top of my head. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> 3. Avoid breeding siblings. That's probably the biggest factor. You can do everything else right but a couple generations of inbreeding will produce mini-.


Why would it be more probable with inbreeding to get miniature frogs as opposed to larger frogs? In each round of inbreeding your pushing a gene towards homozygosity and the chance is the same for each gene whether it selects for larger or smaller. There would have to be some other selection factor that would increase the prevalence of the genes for smaller frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

Ed said:


> People underestimate the potential impact of keeping them in conditions that encourage reproduction year round (keeping the sexes seperate isn't enough to prevent resource allocation shifts in the metabolism) as well as diet.
> People forget that an individual frog's participation in breeding doesn't occur for months in the wild, but weeks (for example see Noonan, Brice P., and Philippe Gaucher. "Refugial isolation and secondary contact in the dyeing poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius." Molecular Ecology 15.14 (2006): 4425-4435.).
> 
> Ed


are you talking about cycling? can frogs be kept in extended dry periods as a form of birth control?

Cycling – many dart frog populations experience a dry period in the wild, during which breeding slows down or stops. Replicate this in the wild by reducing misting and feeding for several weeks on end. Let your humidity fall to 70% or so, but make sure to provide a bit of standing water for your frogs. Reduce feedings by half. This will slow or stop your dart frogs from breeding, and allow them time to stock up on fat soluble vitamins and other nutrients depleted by laying eggs. After several weeks, resume typical misting and feeding. We’re rewarded with larger clutches and healthier offspring by cycling our breeders.

https://www.joshsfrogs.com/catalog/blog/2015/01/5-tips-breeding-dart-frogs/


edit: sorry, i just reread everything. so if dart frogs participate in breeding for weeks and not months, and the dry period in the rain forest lasts for 6 months per year, what prevents these frogs from breeding during the other 5 months they're not breeding and its not dry? would the time spent searching for a mate be included in the weeks spent participating in breeding?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

macuser said:


> are you talking about cycling? can frogs be kept in extended dry periods as a form of birth control?


Its not a form of birth control if your goal is to mimic how the frogs really live and grow. 




macuser said:


> edit: sorry, i just reread everything. so if dart frogs participate in breeding for weeks and not months, and the dry period in the rain forest lasts for 6 months per year, what prevents these frogs from breeding during the other 5 months they're not breeding and its not dry? would the time spent searching for a mate be included in the weeks spent participating in breeding?


There is a reference in one of the citation that in one population of Dendrobates tinctorius the average length of time in holding a breeding territory was two weeks. After that the frogs went out and foraged for food. 

This is why I suggested learning the biology of the animals in question. For example a number of dendrobatids have a daily bimodal activity period. So they are foraging and engaging in behaviors twice a day and retreating to a refuge the rest of the time. So when you maximize the activity of the frogs to all day long by providing optimal foraging conditions your enabling them to store larger fat stores (one of the reason most of the hobby's frogs are obese to morbidly obese). When you add into this issue that the level of feeding enables rapid stores of fat and the optimal conditions you get breeding at levels not found in the wild populations. As has been written about repeatedly on this forum, fat stores are the primary nutritional signal for the formation of eggs. It doesn't matter if the rest is deficient in nutrients (and was one of the leading causes of spindly leg), if the fats are available and the environmental conditions signal breeding growth is relegated to a secondary role. 
One of the factors we can use as a benchmark is the frequency at which eggs are deposited as well as clutch size. For example, female pumilio in the wild are not reported to lay second or third (etc) clutches for fertilization during the period where she is feeding tadpoles yet in the enclosures its not uncommon for people to report a new large fertilized clutch every week or two....... 

All of these factors tend to prevent a growth schedule that enables growth similar to the wild populations. And one of the reasons breeding shouldn't be a benchmark for status in this hobby as breeding is one of the easiest cookbook parts of keeping these frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

Ed said:


> This is why I suggested learning the biology of the animals in question.
> Ed


can you please recommend a good book or other source i can read to learn about the biology of dart frogs? i tried googling this topic but most sites i've found dont really go into great detail. thanks


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Its a bit pricey... but...

Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry 
Lotters et al


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I saw a review that said that the book was really out of date. Any comments about that? I would love to get a comprehensive reference book, but if the information is out of date, it could do my frogs more harm than good. If it's just a couple of scientific names that have changed, that doesn't bother me any.

Thanks!

Mark


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I could be wrong, but I believe most of the out of date information is regarding taxonomy... which when you are talking about a book that covers this much coupled with the rate at which things get reclassified, it is bound to happen.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Yeah, I was more worried about incorrect husbandry information. I always treat scientific names as fluid. Even on this board, I see lots of folks on both sides of D. tinctorius 'Azureus'/D. azureus. We all know what everybody means so it doesn't trouble me much. If I am using a material later found to be toxic in my builds or something like that, I don't want out of date information.

Thanks, Tom.

Mark


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe most of the out of date information is regarding taxonomy... which when you are talking about a book that covers this much coupled with the rate at which things get reclassified, it is bound to happen.


There is a lot of information that is relevant in that text that isn't going out of date anytime soon. Where it lacks is of course some of the information that came out in the scientific literature after the editing was done but that doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile. All books and even most magazines aimed at the hobbyist are going to suffer from that problem. 

I have old books that were published back in the the 1980s in which a lot of information is of use. For example, I have a fist US printing of TFH's Terrarium Animals by Zimmerman and in it the diagrams where they provide multiple calling egg deposition spots is still useful for people who could use help in visualizing the way to set up an enclosure. 

If you want to get the optimal picture of the behavior and biology via the literature then you need to use various search phrases on google scholar and then track down copies of the articles. 

if your looking for books and articles you can always try ZenScientist - New, used, rare, and out-of-print books on natural history, particularly herpetology (amphibians and reptiles)

I would also suggest checking out what has been recently been published in the various Herp Journals at ZenScientist - ZenScientist News 
(a recent example Agudelo-Cantero, Gustavo A., R. Santiago Castaño-Valencia, Fernando Castro-Herrera, Leonardo Fierro-Pérez and Helberg Asencio-Santofimio. 2015. Diet of the Blue-Bellied Poison Frog Andinobates minutus (Anura: Dendrobatidae) in Two Populations from the Colombian Pacific. Journal of Herpetology. 49 (3): 452-461). 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't have enough experience to know on all accounts, but I have seen for myself and heard of people who claim that switching tinctorius from individual tadpole cups to community raised has resulted in much bigger faster more active froglets after metamorphosis. This could give you a bigger head start.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

i think i read somewhere that growing them bigger faster isnt always better.

anyways, my text book came! exactly what i wanted. i immediately went to the section for r fantasticas and the book says that they become sexually mature after about 6 months and "if they are then kept seperated by sex for another half a year so they cannot start producing eggs, they grow larger than specimens that are permitted to breed at a young age (Divossen 2002b)". pg 475 poison frogs: biology species and captive husbandry

as i'm going through this book, if i see anything else that is relevent, i'll be sure to post.

edit: and below is an interesting article Ed posted on a different forum a few years ago regarding the dry season and d tinctorius
Dry-season retreat and dietary shift of the dart-poison frog Dendrobates tinctorius (Anura: Dendrobatidae)
http://www.revistas.usp.br/phyllo/article/viewFile/42724/46392

edit2: and it was zookeeperdoug in post#18 that said bigger faster doesnt mean better/healthier


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

macuser said:


> edit2: and it was zookeeperdoug in post#18 that said bigger faster doesn't mean better/healthier


The problem with the bigger out of water idea is that it is subject to a lot of caveats. For example in many egg laying taxa, larger and older females lay bigger eggs which provides for bigger offspring at hatching which is often an advantage later in life. Rearing at temperatures that deviate significantly from the optimum can significantly reduce growth as it impact the uptake and metabolism of nutrients. Stressors often are linked to significant deviations from optimal growth as it affects the metabolism negatively. Even how the eggs were managed has the potential to cause an impact on growth. 

Finally there is also what is known as compensatory growth. This in short is growth faster than normal post stressor. This can produce a larger metamorph or frog but it generally comes at a cost of reduced fitness. Now the reduction in fitness may not be apparent in hobbyist collections due to how the frogs are coddled but it could have an effect that reduces long-term survival such as in life span. 

As an example 
Hector, K. L., P. J. Bishop, and S. Nakagawa. "Consequences of compensatory growth in an amphibian." Journal of Zoology 286.2 (2012): 93-101. 

Räsänen, K., A. Laurila, and J. Merilä. "Carry‐over effects of embryonic acid conditions on development and growth of Rana temporaria tadpoles." Freshwater biology 47.1 (2002): 19-30.

Arendt, J. D. "Reduced burst speed is a cost of rapid growth in anuran tadpoles: problems of autocorrelation and inferences about growth rates." Functional Ecology 17.3 (2003): 328-334.

Capellan, E., and A. G. Nicieza. "Non‐equivalence of growth arrest induced by predation risk or food limitation: context‐dependent compensatory growth in anuran tadpoles." Journal of animal ecology 76.5 (2007): 1026-1035. 

The last one is available as a free access HTML if searched under google scholar. 


Some comments 

Ed


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