# Fat frogs



## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

Is a fat frog a healthy frog?


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## Taron (Sep 23, 2009)

Depends if it is bloated? 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

I shoot for something in the middle. I don't want my frogs to be skinny obviously, but I don't want them to be marble like either. 
If that's not what you're talking about then disregard my post.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

A frog that is _truly_ fat is not healthy. A frog that is comfortably plump may be a healthy frog. Females that are gravid might appear fat but simply be gravid.... The _huge_ indicator for me is I've seen frogs in others collections with double chins.... Definitely unhealthy.


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

You guys are on the right trail. I only ask because it seems a lot of hobbyists like to ,at the least attempt to, keep their frogs as fat as possible and a lot of people correlate "fat" with "healthy." Shouldn't we strive to keep a more healthy frog than one that could do them harm over the long run?

Any time I acquire a fat frog I immediately put it on a diet .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MD_Frogger said:


> You guys are on the right trail. I only ask because it seems a lot of hobbyists like to ,at the least attempt to, keep their frogs as fat as possible and a lot of people correlate "fat" with "healthy." Shouldn't we strive to keep a more healthy frog than one that could do them harm over the long run?
> 
> Any time I acquire a fat frog I immediately put it on a diet .


I think I've made comments about this in the past as well.. thanks for keeping the idea alive.. 

Ed


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Need to put them on the D3monic diet....let your culture crash a week before the next is producing and let them dig for microfauna....they get a good workout and lay off the FF for a while (Fast Food) hehe.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

D3monic said:


> Need to put them on the D3monic diet....let your culture crash a week before the next is producing and let them dig for microfauna....they get a good workout and lay off the FF for a while (Fast Food) hehe.


Sounds like what I do.... The one thing that makes you nervous is when you've got small froglets to feed. Really, throw an orange slice in the viv and the fruit flies will stay alive a long time in there... just make the frogs forage for them.... I figure even if they're still eating too much at least they're exercising to work off some of the calories of eating too much.

I will admit, the one frog I want to see fat is the male reticulatus. Those males always seem too skinny for comfort for me.... My retics are probably a little over weight. But in that one case I figure it's better to be a little over than a little under.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Sounds like what I do.... The one thing that makes you nervous is when you've got small froglets to feed. Really, throw an orange slice in the viv and the fruit flies will stay alive a long time in there... just make the frogs forage for them.... I figure even if they're still eating too much at least they're exercising to work off some of the calories of eating too much.


I don't think its possible to have a growing froglet be too fat.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I use a film can stuffed with banana, keeps the flies in the tank and lots of yummy maggot snacks for the frogs/froglets.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> I don't think its possible to have a growing froglet be too fat.


This may be one of those things that actually hurts the hobby.. one of the long standing concerns in the hobby is that there is a trend to frogs that don't achieve the same size and color of frogs in the wild.. this may in part be due to the fat frog syndrome..

In frogs, growth can be rapid all the way until the frog becomes sexually mature at which time, the energy that was being used for growth is shifted towards reproduction resulting in slow growth from that point. This coupled with a tendency to house the frogs in a manner that allows for year round reproduction could be a significant factor in poor quality frogs. 

One of the things that is coming out in many taxa studied is that body mass and fat reserves can trigger an earlier onset of reproduction. So if the froglets are kept fat to obsese and under conditions which simulate reproduction in adults... 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have found the key to not having fat frogs is in having a larger collection. I feed froglets and juveniles every day and breeders every other day. To do this, I have to keep about 300 cultures going. The frogs end-up being well fed, but they haven't become overweight.

The cure to fat frogs is acquire more frogs!

Richard.


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Or feed less. 


Woodsman said:


> I have found the key to not having fat frogs is in having a larger collection. I feed froglets and juveniles every day and breeders every other day. To do this, I have to keep about 300 cultures going. The frogs end-up being well fed, but they haven't become overweight.
> 
> The cure to fat frogs is acquire more frogs!
> 
> Richard.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> This may be one of those things that actually hurts the hobby.. one of the long standing concerns in the hobby is that there is a trend to frogs that don't achieve the same size and color of frogs in the wild.. this may in part be due to the fat frog syndrome..
> 
> In frogs, growth can be rapid all the way until the frog becomes sexually mature at which time, the energy that was being used for growth is shifted towards reproduction resulting in slow growth from that point. This coupled with a tendency to house the frogs in a manner that allows for year round reproduction could be a significant factor in poor quality frogs.
> 
> ...


I've never seen a growing froglet get "fat" Ed. With energy directed towards growing I don't think it's possible to make a fat froglet (with a traditional diet of flies/pinheads anyway). On the other hand, it's pretty darn easy to make a skinny froglet turn into a dead froglet without enough fuel to keep their little furnaces running hot. That was my point.

But since you've opening up the topic, I don't see how keeping growing froglets plump will lead to unfullfilled growth potential. A frog will reach sexual maturity at the size that it reaches sexual maturity - once a frog redirects energy away from growth and into reproduction that is when they are sexually mature. How can you possibly delay the redirection of resources to reproduction in a frog?? Perhaps a dry season in nature could put things on hold for a few months? Would that really make a difference in fulfilling growth potential in an animal the lives over a decade and continues to grow through out it's life?

Personally, I've always thought claims of tincs or auratus breeding at 10 months of age or thumbnails breeding at 4 months were just exaggerations by enthusiastic new hobbiests. 13-18 months is more the norm for our tincs. Maybe I'm wrong on that assumption??

It seems to me that year round breeding would be a much greater contriubtor to unfulfilled growth potential.

I don't think pudgy froglets/juveniles harms the hobby or the frogs in any way. Nor do I see an issue with a frog that reaches sexual maturity at 12 months rather then 14 months. I see the endless breeding cycle as something that could be harmful to the frogs and the hobby in the long term.

That said, lets get to the real question we should be debating:

How should our frogs be reared such that they reach their full growth potential BEFORE they reach sexual maturity? 

SHOULD we strive to have our frogs reach their full growth potential before they reach sexual maturity? 

NOTE: I respect the scientific process of peer reviewed literature and will gladly defer my thoughts and observations to generally accepted scientific fact. Please take that as an invitation to scour the archives Ed! Great discussion topic and one that I've spent countless hours contemplating.

Thoughts?


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## AnacRoNoxX (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree, it's not good (for your frogs/froglets or the hobby) to feed them excessively and think "it's OK, they just are little reactors and can handle it." or "a fat frog is a happy frog."

I would think about it as you would a human, or any other animal. There are a number of health risks and problems associated with overweight and obesity in children (type 2 diabetes to name one). Obesity in young girls can also initiate early menstrual cycles. Obviously there are differences between human and frog physiology, but they are similar enough in this sense. The main point is yes, it makes sense that you can have a fat or plump unhealthy froglet. Their metabolic demands are high, but like any other animal unused calories are stored and/or converted to fat. And our vivariums (for the most part) aren't comparable to the wild in terms of the frog's energy demands and energy expenditure, so diet is important 

To me, if I see alot of flies crawling around when I go to feed I... 1) cut back on the food load, and/or 2) close the lid and wait another day. They will gorge themselves when presented the opportunity . I also observed that over time you can gauge the demands of your frogs after a few feedings and from their behavior (granted I don't have a huge collection, yet ). For example, I sometimes feed my azueres juveniles every other day with no ill effects or skinny frogs because of uneaten flies. I sometimes find my Pats hovering at the front of the tank as they stare me down from across the room... waiting .

good topic,


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Froglets in my house are fed A LOT. No matter how much I feed they're never obese. My froglets grow SO fast because I feed a lot but always look very healthy. 

Not saying this is the norm, but I could see watching their weight when they pretty much stop growing. I feed most of my frogs everyday, but I will give days off to adults all the time and I think that's a good thing. Sometimes they seem hungry and it's tempting to feed them..but let them exercise and find what's left in the tank or what's growing in the tank. It's definitely a good thing to do. My adult tincs could stand to get 2 days off if I had to. They're not obese but pretty big...so I know they're not going to starve if I ever have all my cultures crash.

Small froglets are what worries people. Back in the day, everyone thought froglets not fed for 24 hours will die. I don't think that's entirely true but I definitely watch my froglets to make sure they're eating well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

AnacRoNoxX said:


> Obesity in young girls can also initiate early menstrual cycles. Obviously there are differences between human and frog physiology, but they are similar enough in this sense.


Actually this is the case in a number of taxa.... 

It is becoming clearer that the amount of food and the type of food (in some taxa) directly affect the size of the adult animal. As an example of this I am going to direct those interested to this article as an example http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_5/Issue_3/Gauthier_Lesbarreres_2010.pdf 

Now in addition to the effects on the size of the animal, we also need to consider obesity.. In other taxa (I am using fish for convience), the accumulation of fat is a trigger towards sexual maturity and a sufficient level of fat causes early sexual maturation (see for example ScienceDirect - Aquaculture : Regulation of nutrient intake and energy balance in salmon )\
This appears to be response across many taxa so there isn't any indication that frogs are any different... 

In most of the enviroments we provide the frogs, we tend to keep them in the equivalent of the rainy season without a dry seasonal component to thier enviroment. A dry season, even in sexually mature animals doesn't trigger the systems which divert calories towards reproduction (the males aren't calling, the females aren't ovulating) so resources can be reallocated towards other needs like growth. The lack of seasonality is also where we set up the secondary triggers towards sexual maturity.. we know certain conditions trigger reproduction so housing the frogs in those conditions year round is going to prevent allocation of them once the frogs are sexually mature.. 

Sorry the response isn't as complete as I would like but I'm getting a headache.. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DJboston said:


> Froglets in my house are fed A LOT. No matter how much I feed they're never obese. My froglets grow SO fast because I feed a lot but always look very healthy.
> 
> Not saying this is the norm, but I could see watching their weight when they pretty much stop growing. I feed most of my frogs everyday, but I will give days off to adults all the time and I think that's a good thing. Sometimes they seem hungry and it's tempting to feed them..but let them exercise and find what's left in the tank or what's growing in the tank. It's definitely a good thing to do. My adult tincs could stand to get 2 days off if I had to. They're not obese but pretty big...so I know they're not going to starve if I ever have all my cultures crash.
> 
> Small froglets are what worries people. Back in the day, everyone thought froglets not fed for 24 hours will die. I don't think that's entirely true but I definitely watch my froglets to make sure they're eating well.


How do they compare to photos of the frogs taken in the wild? Would you be willing to sacrifice a couple and perform a gross necropsy to look at the presence/size/absence of fat bodies? 

Ed


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

No I wouldn't.

There are so many variables and I've seen frogs in the wild.

I don't understand what you're asking of me really??? My frogs are fed daily for the most part. I don't flood them with flies. They get a decent amount of dusted flies on a rotating vitamin schedule and my frogs are healthy and in good health. If a frog is obviously fat, which I've never noticed really, I'd cut back.

My female azureus is pretty large right now but she's been carrying eggs weekly for the past few months so I just want her to be properly supplemented and well fed and that's all.

Ed, I understand there's a lot to consider in this, but I just don't have the time to over-think this. I always have a ton of flies ready to feed and make cultures every wednesday strictly. My frogs get fed....kind of the end of the story. I don't really know what else I have to consider. Hell, I probably should worry more about what my own diet is and consider my own life span and my families. And I'm sure in better shape than 90% of the members here but even then I could use improvements in diet. Not being cocky, have just always been in good shape as I've been an athlete my entire life. A healthy human should have certain things about them that makes them healthy and in good shape. With working out and nutrition for humans, I will wax intellectual all day as bodybuilding has always been a hobby of mine as well as training for sporting competitions.

For now, if my frogs are breeding well or growing well, the offspring will be healthy. Never had a problem with spindly leg syndrome or any problems I might contribute to improper diet.

No one wants fat frogs. I would think that as long as my frogs appear healthy I'm fine. I know what a healthy dart frog looks like in size. Been doing this for 12 years. I've seen frogs, even from big breeding companies, that are SO skinny I wonder how much they actually feed. 

I can talk about it all day but I'm still not sure what you're asking me...these are not wild dart frogs and there are too many variables to consider the differences in what they should look like. I just know that they should look of normal weight and skinny frogs scare me than frogs with good weight on them. By good weight, I don't mean fat.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Again Ed, If it's a phone call or conversation at a frog meeting, I'd be better equipped and prepared to talk about this. But on the forum, getting into a conversation like this with you, just feels like I'm going to type something and it's going to be seen as my detailed opinion on something and I want you to know that I am open to consider ANYTHING as keeping Dart frogs is not an exact science and everyone does things different or hopefully what works for them. Some people don't even do things that work for them and fail at the hobby so it goes both ways lol Don't quote me on anything I post though, I ramble a lot lol I just know that I don't fail at what I do. If I did, I would feel guilty and wouldn't keep dart frogs. Keep going though, as I like to hear your response on dart frogs and diet and nutritional needs. As I've told you in the past, you know a freakish amount of information on the subject.



Ed said:


> How do they compare to photos of the frogs taken in the wild? Would you be willing to sacrifice a couple and perform a gross necropsy to look at the presence/size/absence of fat bodies?
> 
> Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

DJboston said:


> Again Ed, If it's a phone call or conversation at a frog meeting, I'd be better equipped and prepared to talk about this. But on the forum, getting into a conversation like this with you, just feels like I'm going to type something and it's going to be seen as my detailed opinion on something and I want you to know that I am open to consider ANYTHING as keeping Dart frogs is not an exact science and everyone does things different or hopefully what works for them. Some people don't even do things that work for them and fail at the hobby so it goes both ways lol Don't quote me on anything I post though, I ramble a lot lol I just know that I don't fail at what I do. If I did, I would feel guilty and wouldn't keep dart frogs. Keep going though, as I like to hear your response on dart frogs and diet and nutritional needs. As I've told you in the past, you know a freakish amount of information on the subject.


Take a deep breath! I don't think Ed is on your case... yet! 

Seriously though, he just asked how your juveniles compare to WC pictures and thats a pretty fair question. I can't really speak for dart frogs in the wild, but I caught more then my fair share of frogs and toads as a kid and in the bug filled world of my childhood they were all portly subjects.

I think it might be helpful to separate juveniles and sexually mature animals in this discussion. The article provided (which was excellent btw, thanks Ed) suggested that it was calories that contributed to accelerated growth rates rather then the actual mass of food consumed. High fat diets would increase calories, increase growth rates, and likely decrease the age of sexual maturity. Fruit flies and crickets are not very high fat diets and it seems unlikely that they would contribute to obesity in growing juveniles.

Conversely Ed, have you seen many juveniles frogs that you considered to be obese? How would you define obese in a juvenile frog?


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> It is becoming clearer that the amount of food and the type of food (in some taxa) directly affect the size of the adult animal. As an example of this I am going to direct those interested to this article as an example http://www.herpconbio.org/Volume_5/Issue_3/Gauthier_Lesbarreres_2010.pdf


Sorry about your headache Ed.

The article you posted also made some references to early sexual maturity and decreased longevity in tortoises. Is there anything in the literature that cites negative health effects for early maturity in amphibians? The posted article could not make similar inferences for accelerated growth rates in Leopard Geckos.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

Anyone got a pic of an overweight frog? With the double chin?


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

JL-Exotics said:


> High fat diets would increase calories, increase growth rates, and likely decrease the age of sexual maturity. Fruit flies and crickets are not very high fat diets and it seems unlikely that they would contribute to obesity in growing juveniles.


I see where you are going with this but then how are some of these little guys getting so big? Is it the microfauna that's so high in fat? What do we feed in captivity that's high in fat? Termites,...???

Would it be safe to assume the diet in the first year of the frog's life will be an integral part of it's long term reproductive health?

Also, I have never seen a WC froglet...what if any differences are there? Pictures would be great


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Would this guy be considered obese?


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Not to me. I would be perfectly happy with that gorgeous plump little Leuc! lol Looks very healthy.


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

It's not obese if it's a gravid female...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I worry about obesity with my Lorenzos. There's so much microfauna in their tank that I've cut way back on flies. Then I worry that they aren't getting enough vitamins due to reduction in dusted flies. What should I worry about more? That they are getting fat or that they aren't getting enough vitamins? 

Even after replacing their substrate, the microfauna made a come back. Maybe I should CO2 the tank and start over. It would take care of the snails while I'm at it.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

MD_Frogger said:


> I see where you are going with this but then how are some of these little guys getting so big? Is it the microfauna that's so high in fat? What do we feed in captivity that's high in fat? Termites,...???
> 
> Would it be safe to assume the diet in the first year of the frog's life will be an integral part of it's long term reproductive health?
> 
> Also, I have never seen a WC froglet...what if any differences are there? Pictures would be great


Food items don't need to be high in fat to add fat to an animal. If there are too many calories the excess will be stored as fat. Same reason humans get fat eating non fat/low fat foods.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tachikoma said:


> Food items don't need to be high in fat to add fat to an animal. If there are too many calories the excess will be stored as fat. Same reason humans get fat eating non fat/low fat foods.


Absolutely correct.. And we know that the frogs are genetically programmed to eat until sated as they aren't adapted to having the food gods deliver on a regular basis. In the wild, they undergo feast and famine situations and store reserves as needed. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MD_Frogger said:


> It's not obese if it's a gravid female...


Wouldn't that make the sphagnum moss really large? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Take a deep breath! I don't think Ed is on your case... yet!
> 
> Seriously though, he just asked how your juveniles compare to WC pictures and thats a pretty fair question. I can't really speak for dart frogs in the wild, but I caught more then my fair share of frogs and toads as a kid and in the bug filled world of my childhood they were all portly subjects.
> 
> ...


Absolutely not on anyone's case.. not sure how I gave the impression.. 

Just tossing thoughts out there.. 

The only reason I asked if DJboston would consider sacrificing some froglets and doing gross necropsies is that if one thinks back to their frog anatomy is that fat is primarily stored on the kidneys and in large pads in the abdominal cavity. This is why round bodied froglets are fat (possibly obese) as the fat bodies are displacing the organs and changing the outline of the froglet's body. In older frogs, fat can end up being stored in other organs (liver) and possibly within muscle tissue but the majority is going to be in the abdominal cavity (and possibly within the liver). A necropsy on a several froglets would allow for a examination of the fat bodies, which can be removed and weighed and the amount of how much of the body weight is comprised of fat determined.. The liver could be checked and floated to see if it is fatty as well.... It was a thought that popped into my head as I was reading his post... I can respect a person's decision to not do it as many people wouldn't. 

And I was asking how the froglets compared to wild frogs in general as virtually all of the pictures I have seen have shown much slimmer frogs. 

Okay we need to start at the beginning to understand the metabolic needs of the frogs. A outdated ( One of these days I need to correct the digestiability of chitin in that thread as we have better figures now) refresher with the appropriate calculations can be found here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...es-week-do-you-feed-your-frogs.html#post82596 

We have to also understand that the growth as outlined in those articles is dependent on total calories consumed. While crickets and meal worms seem to be low in fat when compared to some foods like wax worms or other caterpillars, they are much higher in fat than other foods like ants. If one looks in the literature, crickets and fruit flies are considered a high quality food when compared to say ants. Even more importantly they are higher in calories... 

As for specific articles looking at amphibians, I'll have to look to see what I can find. Most do not correlate diet, or fat bodies to growth rate and sexual maturity. There is a lot on size and sexual maturity but not clearly linking diet like the prior articles I referenced. 

and yes I have seen froglets that I considered to be obese.. 

Ed


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

JL-Exotics said:


> That said, lets get to the real question we should be debating:
> 
> How should our frogs be reared such that they reach their full growth potential BEFORE they reach sexual maturity?
> 
> ...


I feel my potential breeders should be as large as possible (try to find a paper with their wild adult size listed) before breeding. Once I get an idea of potential adult sex, I separate the frogs out based on gender, and rear them in 'dry' conditions on clay with leaf litter in shoeboxes or 10 gallon tanks. 

I also only feed my frogs 2-3 times per week max and every breeding group gets at least 3 months off per year (sometimes the male has to go on vacation to another viv).


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

I was hoping someone would respond to this post. I was reading about nutrition in a book I've read 5 or 6 times earlier today. The authors made brief mention of different microfauna and food sources as ways to provide vitamins that aren't readily available in melanogasters. In short, we dust because we can't provide the frogs w/ the varieties that they hunt down in the wild. 

Does anyone have a good link with breakdowns of vitamin composition of different microfauna? I'd love to know which isopods have the most Vitamin A or D3 ... Possibly which will do best in providing calcium when raised on a clay substrate. It'd be interesting to see if anyone really suffers from "too much" microfauna to the point that they actually want to kill it off? (send me a culture? i have tropical springs, but want more bugs!)

In direct response to the thread title ... I am a little worried about my female azureus. I believe that she is gravid based on the stomach shape, but I've seen no egg-laying activity and have little to no idea when to determine that she is egg-bound or otherwise bloated. Without pictures of animals from the bloodlines that you are keeping, how is someone to know that a frog is too fat?

Here's a pic of fatty for reference... See the frog boobs? Is that too fat???









Thanks,
Brett




frogface said:


> I worry about obesity with my Lorenzos. There's so much microfauna in their tank that I've cut way back on flies. Then I worry that they aren't getting enough vitamins due to reduction in dusted flies. What should I worry about more? That they are getting fat or that they aren't getting enough vitamins?
> 
> Even after replacing their substrate, the microfauna made a come back. Maybe I should CO2 the tank and start over. It would take care of the snails while I'm at it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The frog boobs are from the accumulation of fat in the fat pads and are the displacement of the pads. 

When looking at vitamin and mineral needs, outside some "tweeking" we can use other vertebrates as examples as overall nutritional requirements are heavily conserved and you don't tend to see huge variations.. 

Invertebrates don''t use/store D3. They have some analogs but as I understand the literature, they do not translate over in activity into the frogs (frogs also cannot use D2). The frogs wouldn't get the D3 from the invertebrates in any case in the wild, they would form thier own from exposure to UVB. As we are seeing in multiple studies across a number of herp taxa, if given the opportunity the animals will behaviorally regulate thier own circulating D3 levels (even snakes are now being shown to do this.. and conventional thoughts are that they don't need UVB or D3 if fed completer prey). 

There are a lot of papers on vitamin A in invertebrates and they are considered to be very poor sources of preformed vitamin A and to a lesser extent carotenoids (see for example Carotenoids, vitamin A, and vitamin E concentrations during egg development in panther chameleons (Furcifer pardalis) - Dierenfeld - 2002 - Zoo Biology - Wiley Online Library). They amphibians get around this by using several carotenoids that can be converted to vitamin A (beta carotene just isn't optimal). This is in part where seasonality helps the frogs out as they are able to store up vitamin A and carotenoids instead of having to consistently utilize them for egg production. (See the last issue of Leaf Litter for some more discussion on it). 

Many insects will uptake and store vitamin E if it is provided to them so ideally care must be given to the use of old supplements or gut loading attempts as stored vitamin E can change the ratios of A to D3 to E to outside of that considered optimal and result in conditional nutritional deficiencies (as A, D3 and E compete for uptake and ratios outside of 100 to 10 to 1 result in overcompetition by one of the fat soluble vitamins). 

There is a split in the need for vitamin A between wild and captive dart frogs but this can be explained by the lack of seasonality in captivity and the typical housing of the frogs in conditions which maximize activity and reproduction which places metabolic demands on the frogs not seen in the wild... 

Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed, can you dig up some photos of WC froglets, obese CB froglets, and healthy CB froglets for comparison? It's pretty subjective from person to person as to what is too chubby and what is just right - some visual reference would be a big help.

I have seen froglets raised on a more restricted diet that were slower to reach sexual maturity by a few months, but were also much smaller then what would be expected for that species/local when they became sexually mature.

I have also seen froglets raised with an abundance of food and round bellies that reached sexual maturity at about the generally accepted timeline and at the normal/robust size for that species/local.

I have only heard of froglets fed heavily that grew to adult size + and reached sexual maturity months earlier then would normally be expected.

Which is better for the frogs?

Have there been any long term growth rate studies done on darts in the wild? In captivity? any amphibian?

I would still suggest that a frog reaching sexual maturity a few months earlier than the "usual" timeframe does not necessarily have an adverse affect on long term health or longevity. 

Please remember I am interested in a discussion surrounding young frogs from froglet to sexually mature.

I would prefer to keep long term obesity and continuous breeding in ADULT frogs a separate topic for now.


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

I like my frogs like I like my women - big fat fatties!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Ed, can you dig up some photos of WC froglets, obese CB froglets, and healthy CB froglets for comparison? It's pretty subjective from person to person as to what is too chubby and what is just right - some visual reference would be a big help.


I actually don't have any pictures as I've only had a digital camera relatively recently as compared to when I was looking at more frogs. 
Keep in mind that once the frog metamorphs, there aren't any real morphological secondary sex characteristics that develop once they are sexually mature. As a result you can actually use photos of the same frog in the wild as a comparision (Lotter's et al is a good source of photos). 



JL-Exotics said:


> I have seen froglets raised on a more restricted diet that were slower to reach sexual maturity by a few months, but were also much smaller then what would be expected for that species/local when they became sexually mature.
> 
> I have also seen froglets raised with an abundance of food and round bellies that reached sexual maturity at about the generally accepted timeline and at the normal/robust size for that species/local.
> 
> I have only heard of froglets fed heavily that grew to adult size + and reached sexual maturity months earlier then would normally be expected.


This indicates that the time to sexual maturity in dendrobatids is size related and not necessarily age... and this may end up being dependent on amount/size of fat/fat bodies like the salmons referenced earlier.. unless there are other issues like thermal requirements for sexual maturity (which is seen in some Litoria (see http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/Scott/PDF Files/Browne & Edwards JTB 2003.pdf) 

I do know there have been studies on growth after metamorphosis and the results have been variable and I can't think of any that look at obesity.. one has to keep in mind that enviromental and husbandry effects that occured as a tadpole carry over 
see http://www.unioviedo.es/dalvarez/pdf/FEC16(640-648).pdf most of the studies are looking at the effects of pesticides/herbicides on growth.. 

other papers showing the types of studies http://people.virginia.edu/~klg8y/pubs/Grayson_etal_2005_SDA.pdf 
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
http://www.thaiscience.info/Article... thai native frog, rana rugulosa weigmann.pdf





JL-Exotics said:


> Which is better for the frogs?


Obviously the growth rate that provides optimal growth without excessive deposition of fat bodies. If I remember correctly, cross taxa, obesity before sexual maturity can carry over to the adult.. 



JL-Exotics said:


> Have there been any long term growth rate studies done on darts in the wild? In captivity? any amphibian?
> 
> I would still suggest that a frog reaching sexual maturity a few months earlier than the "usual" timeframe does not necessarily have an adverse affect on long term health or longevity.


How did we get to seperating obesity from sexual maturity? 
Would it be the time to reach sexual maturity that shortens lifespan or the factors that allow for a shortened time to reproduction that results in the reduction of life span? 


There have been several studies (such as this one http://ns1.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/dec2003/775.pdf).. but this appears to be a relatively short lived frog in the wild... 



JL-Exotics said:


> Please remember I am interested in a discussion surrounding young frogs from froglet to sexually mature.
> 
> I would prefer to keep long term obesity and continuous breeding in ADULT frogs a separate topic for now.


I'm not sure how we seperate obesity in subadult and adults.. as across taxa, the condition tends to carry over. 

Ed


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I definitely feel that excessive amounts of micro-fauna (which really aren't the prefered foods of larger frogs) can stress-out frogs. One thing you might want to try is adding a lot of leaf litter to the viv. This might help put some distance between the micro-fauna and the Lorenzos (of course, as it decomposes, the leaf litter does provide more habitat and food for the micro-fauna).

If the viv is relatively new, you might just be having an early bloom of micro-fauna. If so, this will probably subsude on its own over time.

Good luck, Richard.



frogface said:


> I worry about obesity with my Lorenzos. There's so much microfauna in their tank that I've cut way back on flies. Then I worry that they aren't getting enough vitamins due to reduction in dusted flies. What should I worry about more? That they are getting fat or that they aren't getting enough vitamins?
> 
> Even after replacing their substrate, the microfauna made a come back. Maybe I should CO2 the tank and start over. It would take care of the snails while I'm at it.


----------



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> I definitely feel that excessive amounts of micro-fauna (which really aren't the prefered foods of larger frogs) can stress-out frogs. One thing you might want to try is adding a lot of leaf litter to the viv. This might help put some distance between the micro-fauna and the Lorenzos (of course, as it decomposes, the leaf litter does provide more habitat and food for the micro-fauna).
> 
> If the viv is relatively new, you might just be having an early bloom of micro-fauna. If so, this will probably subsude on its own over time.
> 
> Good luck, Richard.


Thanks Richard

The tank is around 8 months old by now, I think. I previously had a lot of microfauna and thought I had figured out the problem; substrate too wet causing microfauna to come to the surface. So I replaced the substrate and the microfauna went back to a reasonable level. Now the tank is crawling with it again. I haven't seeded since I replaced the substrate. (they have a lot of leaf litter; oak, maple and magnolia)

rcteem/Chris has access to dry ice at work. So, if we can get it coordinated, I'll be picking some up to nuke the tank (I also have snails in there). 

I don't like seeing all that crawly stuff in their tank crawling all over my babies. They seem ok, though. They are out and about and poor fella is still calling his little heart out.


----------



## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

JL-Exotics said:


> I don't think its possible to have a growing froglet be too fat.





JL-Exotics said:


> I've never seen a growing froglet get "fat" Ed. With energy directed towards growing I don't think it's possible to make a fat froglet (with a traditional diet of flies/pinheads anyway).





Ed said:


> and yes I have seen froglets that I considered to be obese..
> Ed


This was the discussion I am interested in exploring, so I'll try and pull it back to the origins if I may.

The question here is surrounding the care of our juvenile frogs. Are we overfeeding them? How much is too much food? Does a plump round belly on a growing juvenile frogs create negative health issues?

This is why I wish to separate obesity and sexual maturity. I don't believe anyone will argue that an obese adult frog may be subject to health risks as a result of carrying excessive fat. Nor do I think anyone will argue that an obese adult frog that breeds excessively because it has the fat stores to promote frequent reproduction is not negatively impacted.




Ed said:


> Keep in mind that once the frog metamorphs, there aren't any real morphological secondary sex characteristics that develop once they are sexually mature.
> Ed


True, they are not like they grow horns or start shaving at puberty... but I would propose that it can be assumed that size would be an acceptable indicator of age in most cases.

A simple matrix or BMI scale for frogs may help. I'm sure there must be many studies with dart frogs that involved collecting specimens, taking measurements/weights, noting sex etc. We could gain a clearer picture of what occurs in nature if we could chart these results so that I can look and see - in the wild a 1" tinctorius weighs ~ 2.5 grams; a 1.25" tinctorius weighs ~ 3.0 grams etc. 

Of course, I'm not suggesting every hobbiest needs to run out and purchase a set of calipers and a digital scale capable of reading down to 0.1 grams - but for those of us that do monitoring these things it would be nice to do some comparison.




JL-Exotics said:


> I have seen froglets raised on a more restricted diet that were slower to reach sexual maturity by a few months, but were also much smaller then what would be expected for that species/local when they became sexually mature.
> 
> I have also seen froglets raised with an abundance of food and round bellies that reached sexual maturity at about the generally accepted timeline and at the normal/robust size for that species/local.
> 
> ...





Ed said:


> This indicates that the time to sexual maturity in dendrobatids is size related and not necessarily age... and this may end up being dependent on amount/size of fat/fat bodies like the salmons referenced earlier.. unless there are other issues like thermal requirements for sexual maturity (which is seen in some Litoria (see http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/Scott/PDF Files/Browne & Edwards JTB 2003.pdf)


I'm not sure I follow this one - if the lower calorie diet frogs reach maturity at a much smaller size, wouldn't that make the time to sexual maturity more related to age? I'm guessing there are several factors that come into play... 




JL-Exotics said:


> Which is better for the frogs?





Ed said:


> Obviously the growth rate that provides optimal growth without excessive deposition of fat bodies.


Sorry Ed, but duh! I thought that was what we were driving towards. I guess short of following your previous suggestion of sending some juveniles out for necropsis we may not be able to quantify "What does a juvenile frog look like when it is provided with a diet providing the optimal growth rate without excessive deposition of fat bodies". I would prefer to split hairs even further and ask for a definition of "excessive" as it related to depositions of fat bodies.

Again, in general terms, what does a properly fed juvenile frog look like? I think opinions would vary widely from what is healthy and what is unhealthy. A series of photos showing the difference between healthy/plump and unhealthy/obese. Maybe plump is already pushing into unhealthy territory??

We all strive for big vibrant healthy frogs. 




Ed said:


> If I remember correctly, cross taxa, obesity before sexual maturity can carry over to the adult..


Ugh yes, the baby fat is the hardest to lose. I've been fighting with mine for 38 years... 




Ed said:


> Would it be the time to reach sexual maturity that shortens lifespan or the factors that allow for a shortened time to reproduction that results in the reduction of life span?
> 
> There have been several studies (such as this one http://ns1.ias.ac.in/jbiosci/dec2003/775.pdf).. but this appears to be a relatively short lived frog in the wild...


I wasn't able to take much away from the posted journal, but my assumption would be that it is the factors that allow for an increased frequency of reproduction that would lead to a reduction of life span. I just can't see how a shortened time to reproduction (we're talking a few months sooner or later) will have any impact on the longevity of an animal that has such a long life span. I would be interested in reviewing more literature on the subject, but I would have to believe this would be a very difficult study to control.



Ed said:


> I'm not sure how we seperate obesity in subadult and adults.. as across taxa, the condition tends to carry over.


For the purposed of this discussion I think it's important that we do make that separation. I agree there is potential for carry over, but over the course of a frogs 10+ year life span there is certainly plenty of opportunity for making adjustments. A chubby young adult is not destined to be chubby forever unless environmental conditions are provided that will allow for it. This can (and should) easily be manipulated by the caretaker.

I'm left with 2 questions.

#1. What does a juvenile frog look like when it is supplied with a diet that provides optimal growth without excessive fat storage (and how does that compare to WC juvenile frogs)?

#2. What are the negative consequences for moderate or even excessive fat storage in a growing juvenile frog (assuming that the diet will be altered as the frog reachs adulthood)?

Has the research necessary to even reach these conclusions been done?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> This was the discussion I am interested in exploring, so I'll try and pull it back to the origins if I may.


Actually we can answer the question if a froglet or subadult can be too fat.. and the answer is absolutely. Obesity in a froglet or subadult can lead to steatosis. This can reduce the ability of the liver to function and lead to issues with inflammation. This was one of the things it would be interesting to look at prevalence with a sampling of necropsies.. 



JL-Exotics said:


> The question here is surrounding the care of our juvenile frogs. Are we overfeeding them? How much is too much food? Does a plump round belly on a growing juvenile frogs create negative health issues?
> 
> True, they are not like they grow horns or start shaving at puberty... but I would propose that it can be assumed that size would be an acceptable indicator of age in most cases.


Unlike other animals we don't see significant changes in body morphology such as changes in bone structure, fat deposition, musculature and so forth. The fat depositon sites (and musculature) is going to stay the same resulting in a scalable animal. This would allow people to compare pictures of froglets with adults of the same species allowing for a comparision. 



JL-Exotics said:


> A simple matrix or BMI scale for frogs may help. I'm sure there must be many studies with dart frogs that involved collecting specimens, taking measurements/weights, noting sex etc. We could gain a clearer picture of what occurs in nature if we could chart these results so that I can look and see - in the wild a 1" tinctorius weighs ~ 2.5 grams; a 1.25" tinctorius weighs ~ 3.0 grams etc.
> 
> Of course, I'm not suggesting every hobbiest needs to run out and purchase a set of calipers and a digital scale capable of reading down to 0.1 grams - but for those of us that do monitoring these things it would be nice to do some comparison.


How does just weighing and measuring them indicate level of fat deposition? 



JL-Exotics said:


> I'm not sure I follow this one - if the lower calorie diet frogs reach maturity at a much smaller size, wouldn't that make the time to sexual maturity more related to age? I'm guessing there are several factors that come into play... .


I was trying to demonstrate that there are various factors that could come into play..which is why I referenced that paper and this is even if we ignore the large body of literature that demonstrates impacts during the tadpole period affecting metamorphic and post metamorphic phenotype, growth and survivorship. 




JL-Exotics said:


> Sorry Ed, but duh! I thought that was what we were driving towards. I guess short of following your previous suggestion of sending some juveniles out for necropsis we may not be able to quantify "What does a juvenile frog look like when it is provided with a diet providing the optimal growth rate without excessive deposition of fat bodies". I would prefer to split hairs even further and ask for a definition of "excessive" as it related to depositions of fat bodies.
> 
> Again, in general terms, what does a properly fed juvenile frog look like? I think opinions would vary widely from what is healthy and what is unhealthy. A series of photos showing the difference between healthy/plump and unhealthy/obese. Maybe plump is already pushing into unhealthy territory?? .


This is why I made the argument about adults being scalable comparisions for the froglets... as without a series of random sacrifices and necropsies from different feeding regimens it is going to be hard to quantify. 




JL-Exotics said:


> I wasn't able to take much away from the posted journal, but my assumption would be that it is the factors that allow for an increased frequency of reproduction that would lead to a reduction of life span. I just can't see how a shortened time to reproduction (we're talking a few months sooner or later) will have any impact on the longevity of an animal that has such a long life span. I would be interested in reviewing more literature on the subject, but I would have to believe this would be a very difficult study to control. .


see my comments about steatitus.. (as one example of how it can affect longevity..) 




JL-Exotics said:


> #1. What does a juvenile frog look like when it is supplied with a diet that provides optimal growth without excessive fat storage (and how does that compare to WC juvenile frogs)?
> 
> #2. What are the negative consequences for moderate or even excessive fat storage in a growing juvenile frog (assuming that the diet will be altered as the frog reachs adulthood)?
> 
> Has the research necessary to even reach these conclusions been done?


As I think I noted early on.. a lot of these issues are conserved across taxa so if we are willing to look outside of dart frogs (or frogs), I think we can come up with some genealizations..... 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I wonder if we could include here worries over underfed/underweight frogs in the growthrate discussion. It seems to me that I am more likely to see underweight frogs in the hobby than overweight frogs. When groups of frogs are raised together, there seems to be obvious winners and losers in the group (unless the breeder is diligent about removing smaller frogs to spearate housing). If a frog doesn't reach adult size within a certain period (based on the growthrate for its species), isn't there a good chance to see a lot of "runty" adults running around (and I have seen quite a few of these)?

I rarely see overweight males in my collection as well with actively breeding females. The only frogs that have a tendency to be "chubby" are adult females that are not actively breeding (which doesn't bother me to see in the run-up to an active breeding season).

Just a thought, Richard.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

to me this is a prime example of azureus's that are far too fat lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> I wonder if we could include here worries over underfed/underweight frogs in the growthrate discussion. It seems to me that I am more likely to see underweight frogs in the hobby than overweight frogs. When groups of frogs are raised together, there seems to be obvious winners and losers in the group (unless the breeder is diligent about removing smaller frogs to spearate housing). If a frog doesn't reach adult size within a certain period (based on the growthrate for its species), isn't there a good chance to see a lot of "runty" adults running around (and I have seen quite a few of these)?
> 
> I rarely see overweight males in my collection as well with actively breeding females. The only frogs that have a tendency to be "chubby" are adult females that are not actively breeding (which doesn't bother me to see in the run-up to an active breeding season).
> 
> Just a thought, Richard.


Hi Rich,

Somewhere earlier in this thread I thought I had linked to an older discussion here where the established formula to calculate the metabolic needs of a 1 gram animal were calculated out.. If I remember correctly, the minimum the frog would need to consume during a 24 hour period to maintain a neutral metabolism was a little over 5 melanogaster (assuming the flies weighed 7.53 E-4 grams each) at 25 C. If the frog was undergoing severe metabolic stress this number could be as high as 40 flies a day but in reality it is going to be a number inbetween these two values. 

If for this discussion we ignore the carryover effects of the tadpole stage on metamorphosis and initial development, there is a fair bit of literature discussing competition in groups on thier growth. In most of those, growth is made up once the competition but as you noted we may not see it in captive frogs.. which leads to some interesting speculation... 

Ed


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

whitethumb said:


> to me this is a prime example of azureus's that are far too fat lol
> YouTube - Dendrobates Azureus


Those frogs are only half as fat as my azureus. My azureus are so fat that they rival the size of my mint terribilississes.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Who the hell feeds adult Azureus springtails as a main food item? It seems ridiculous and more than a little cruel. Although, the frogs do not seem obese (IMO).

Richard.



whitethumb said:


> to me this is a prime example of azureus's that are far too fat lol
> YouTube - Dendrobates Azureus


----------



## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Ed.

I know that there is a great variation in the frequency of feeding darts here as well, from once or twice a week to every day. Rather than just the total number/weight of ffs eaten, does the timing of the feeding have an affect on overall weight/health?

Take care, Richard.



Ed said:


> Hi Rich,
> 
> Somewhere earlier in this thread I thought I had linked to an older discussion here where the established formula to calculate the metabolic needs of a 1 gram animal were calculated out.. If I remember correctly, the minimum the frog would need to consume during a 24 hour period to maintain a neutral metabolism was a little over 5 melanogaster (assuming the flies weighed 7.53 E-4 grams each) at 25 C. If the frog was undergoing severe metabolic stress this number could be as high as 40 flies a day but in reality it is going to be a number inbetween these two values.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Thanks Ed.
> 
> I know that there is a great variation in the frequency of feeding darts here as well, from once or twice a week to every day. Rather than just the total number/weight of ffs eaten, does the timing of the feeding have an affect on overall weight/health?
> 
> Take care, Richard.


No.. while I did the calculation with the statement needed to supply the energy for 24 hours, unless the frog(let) has no reserves left, the feedings can be concentrated into a several feedings a week for several reasons. One of these is that the frog's can reduce thier metabolic needs by simply reducing thier movement or seeking a cooler microniche (this can significatly change the metabolic needs), and that when provided with food, tend to overeat..

Ed


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## Chris Miller (Apr 20, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Who the hell feeds adult Azureus springtails as a main food item? It seems ridiculous and more than a little cruel. Although, the frogs do not seem obese (IMO).
> 
> Richard.


How is it cruel? Also, I must have missed it, but how do you know springtails were a main food item?


----------



## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> How does just weighing and measuring them indicate level of fat deposition?


I think you made a very good case for this actually...



Ed said:


> Unlike other animals we don't see significant changes in * body morphology such as changes in bone structure, fat deposition, musculature and so forth. The fat depositon sites (and musculature) is going to stay the same resulting in a scalable animal. * This would allow people to compare pictures of froglets with adults of the same species allowing for a comparision.


And...



Ed said:


> *This is why I made the argument about adults being scalable comparisions for the froglets... *as without a series of random sacrifices and necropsies from different feeding regimens it is going to be hard to quantify.


 



Ed said:


> As I think I noted early on.. a lot of these issues are conserved across taxa so if we are willing to look outside of dart frogs (or frogs), I think we can come up with some genealizations.....
> Ed


Yes, would you be willing to give us a starting point (with some generalizations)?


----------



## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> No.. while I did the calculation with the statement needed to supply the energy for 24 hours, unless the frog(let) has no reserves left, the feedings can be concentrated into a several feedings a week for several reasons. One of these is that the frog's can reduce thier metabolic needs by simply reducing thier movement or seeking a cooler microniche (this can significatly change the metabolic needs), and that when provided with food, tend to overeat..
> 
> Ed


Most people rear froglets in smaller tanks to make food easier to find, where microniches tend to be hard to come by. Especially if there are several other froglets competing for that resource. A larger tank would certainly help in this regard - or a consistently available food source.

I was a bit surprised at your answer to be honest. I'll admit the principal and reasoning make sense - but this is contrary to some of my personal observations. In my experience, a froglet that is without food for even a few days will "stunt" it's growth for an extended period of time. In some cases they may never catch up to siblings that did not endure a similar shortage.

This would leave me to speculate that either it takes much much longer to replace a froglets fat reserves before it can redirect that energy back to growth or the average looking froglet just doesn't carry a significant store of fat reserves and they can be delpeted in just a few days. Or both.

Either way, consistent feeding seems to be pretty important for a frog to reach it's full growth potential.

I'm curious if anyone else has made similar observations?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> I think you made a very good case for this actually...
> 
> 
> > Actually it gives a profile we can use to get an idea that the froglet approaches "a normal" profile.. not the amount of fat the frog is actually carrying.
> ...


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Most people rear froglets in smaller tanks to make food easier to find, where microniches tend to be hard to come by. Especially if there are several other froglets competing for that resource. A larger tank would certainly help in this regard - or a consistently available food source.


If one looks at the calculations on metabolic needs, even a couple of degrees one way or the other results in major changes in the daily metabolic needs of the animals.. 



JL-Exotics said:


> I was a bit surprised at your answer to be honest. I'll admit the principal and reasoning make sense - but this is contrary to some of my personal observations. In my experience, a froglet that is without food for even a few days will "stunt" it's growth for an extended period of time. In some cases they may never catch up to siblings that did not endure a similar shortage.


And your observation is opposite mine.. (and some of the literature).. particularly that of amphibians (see discussion in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry on metabolism) but this sort of growth couldalso be due to factors that result from a fator or factors during the tadpole period (see http://www.popbiol.ebc.uu.se/pdf/Journal of Zoology 277, 267-274 (2009).pdf as one example of tadpole exposures carrying over). We also can't rule out that the delay of growth was due to a lack of calories (as this is opposite the metabolic data) and not a lack of vitamins needed for proper growth. We now know that historically most supplements did not contain appropriate or sufficient pre-vitamin A sources or vitamin A (as retinly palmitate)..... 
We also can't rule out enviromental plasticity from housing see for example http://www.popbiol.ebc.uu.se/pdf/Tejedo et al 2010 Climate Research 43 31-39.pdf 

I'll have to get the papers together where differences in metamorphic size between cohorts were rapidly made up by the froglets. 



JL-Exotics said:


> Either way, consistent feeding seems to be pretty important for a frog to reach it's full growth potential.
> 
> I'm curious if anyone else has made similar observations?


Consistent doesn't have to be daily.. 

Ed


----------



## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> If one looks at the calculations on metabolic needs, even a couple of degrees one way or the other results in major changes in the daily metabolic needs of the animals..


I tried to find a source for the gross energy (kcal/gram) provided by fruit flies and found a few undocumented citations similar to what you provided in another post (5.12 kcal/g). The Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book suggests that most feeder insects range between 1-2 kcal/gram and they suggest 1.5 kcal/gram as a good rule of thumb for calculating metabolic needs. Obviously, that makes a pretty big difference in the calcs. Can you recall your source? I would like to be certain I am using the most accurate information available if possible.





Ed said:


> And your observation is opposite mine.. (and some of the literature).. particularly that of amphibians (see discussion in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry on metabolism)


I wasn't able to find anything in the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry that supports this - but it's quite a novel and I could have easily missed it. Do recall the chapter specifically? I did see in section 5.7 (Nutrition) a statement that said "The recommended frequency of feeding varies with species, age, and activity level... of the amphibian. Young, growing animals, and active foragers thrive on daily feeding.... In general, larval amphibians shoud be fed small amounts daily, rather then several large meals weekly." It didn't go on to detail why this was recommended though.




Ed said:


> Consistent doesn't have to be daily..


Agreed, but 2-3 times a week may not be ideal either.

Thanks Ed, I appreciate your input and discussion.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> I tried to find a source for the gross energy (kcal/gram) provided by fruit flies and found a few undocumented citations similar to what you provided in another post (5.12 kcal/g). The Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book suggests that most feeder insects range between 1-2 kcal/gram and they suggest 1.5 kcal/gram as a good rule of thumb for calculating metabolic needs. Obviously, that makes a pretty big difference in the calcs. Can you recall your source? I would like to be certain I am using the most accurate information available if possible.


The number suggested by Kevin there is actually less than either crickets or mealworms.. as both of those are close to 2 kcal/gram so using the recommendation in text can result in an undercalculation or overcalculation. There can be a lot of variation between feeders so if available an exact number is better than the estimate. I can rework it with the lower calories if you are more comfortable with those numbers. (we also need to keep in mind that these calculations are for an enviroment that is devoid in other feeders such as springtails, mites or other microfauna). 

I have reposted that calculation several times now so the original citation was probably lost. I think the reference for the kcal/gram is from http://www.nagonline.net/Technical Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf as that was the best available data at the time. I'd have to look at my library to see if a different result has since been obtained. 




JL-Exotics said:


> I wasn't able to find anything in the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry that supports this - but it's quite a novel and I could have easily missed it. Do recall the chapter specifically? I did see in section 5.7 (Nutrition) a statement that said "The recommended frequency of feeding varies with species, age, and activity level... of the amphibian. Young, growing animals, and active foragers thrive on daily feeding.... In general, larval amphibians shoud be fed small amounts daily, rather then several large meals weekly." It didn't go on to detail why this was recommended though.


Okay bear with me.. 

I am going to refer you page 84 left hand column discussing the feeding needs for starved animals.. The time line for working with feeding starved animals is handled in seven day increments and that feeding does not have to occur on a daily basis as long as the caloric needs (and that includes the excess to meet an increased metabolism) are met within that seven day period... Now if a starved animal can have its metabolic needs met within a seven day period without daily feedings, it is a pretty big jump to make the requirement that healthy animals with fat reserves require feedings on a daily basis.. 

This is also before we understand how the frogs manipulate thier own metabolism between feedings. During periods where there is a lack of stimulation from food (or being fed), the frogs tend to remain more stationary, and reduce thier metabolism, access to cooler microniches can further reduce this metabolic rate. This means they can actually reduce thier SMR below that used in the calculations. (this is mentioned briefly in Kevin's book but is taken from elsewhere and I would have to look for the specific reference). The impact of lack of nutrition on the frog typically takes 4-6 weeks before it manifests as the fat reserves are reduced (summarized on page 81 1.12) (See Grably, S. and Peiry, Y.; 1981, Weight and tissue changes in long term starved frogs, Rana esculenta.; Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology 69A: 683-688 for more details). This metaboloc plasticity and long time before starvation impacts set in are why we have to be suspicious of the reports on the impact of non-daily feedings on froglets as they don't match with what we know about thier metabolism. It *may* however point towards the carried over impacts from the tadpole stage (and I'm not done reviewing the literature on that to give a more coherent response on that as of yet). It is possible that the daily feedings were masking an underlying issue with the frogs which could be a carry over from the tadpole size. 

This is also before we begin to discuss the impacts of the enviroments on the froglets development. It is apparent that across taxa, enviromental impacts can manipulate physical form as the animals grow... 

Some thoughts,

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Chris,

Just my opinion.

Richard.



Chris Miller said:


> How is it cruel? Also, I must have missed it, but how do you know springtails were a main food item?


----------



## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

So smaller daily feedings though unnecessary would result in more consistently active frogs?


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

*Re: Fat froglets*



Ed said:


> Now if a starved animal can have its metabolic needs met within a seven day period without daily feedings, it is a pretty big jump to make the requirement that healthy animals with fat reserves require feedings on a daily basis..


Just for clarification - my observation was that froglets left without food for more then 3 or 4 days appear to lag in growth compared to froglets fed more regularly. I am not proposing that daily feedings are required, rather I am proposing feeding 1-2x per week does not appear to promote optimal growth rates in the froglets I keep. Lots of variable can come into this with microfauna, temps, competition, stress etc. Just wanted to clarify I did not suggest daily feeding was required, but am questioning what is the ideal feeding schedule for optimal growth - given the above mentioned variables that answer will probably vary from hobbiest to hobbiest and even tank to tank. That is the reason i was interested in a matrix or body mass index of sorts, so folks can feel confident that what they are doing is producing froglets and juveniles that fall into that "ideal" threshold.





Ed said:


> This metaboloc plasticity and long time before starvation impacts set in are why we have to be suspicious of the reports on the impact of non-daily feedings on froglets as they don't match with what we know about thier metabolism. It is possible that the daily feedings were masking an underlying issue with the frogs which could be a carry over from the tadpole size.


Again, the idea is not to keep the froglets alive - but to see them thrive and fulfill their optimal growth potential. A 2 week old froglet would not make it to week 6 without food. They are too small and lack enough fat reserves for that kind of sustained starvation. The long time to starvation impacts appears to be related to adult frogs and not juveniles that are actively growing and it does not reflect the desired optimal growth potential. 

I had not considered an underlying issue as I have seen it across many species and in froglets I have received from other breeders. I have also spoken to other breeders that have made similar observations. An underlying issue is always a possibility however, and you make a good point to raise that variable.




Ed said:


> This is also before we begin to discuss the impacts of the enviroments on the froglets development. It is apparent that across taxa, enviromental impacts can manipulate physical form as the animals grow...


Whew! Lets try and get a firm grip on the feeding aspects before we tackle environmental variables please!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*Re: Fat froglets*



JL-Exotics said:


> Just for clarification - my observation was that froglets left without food for more then 3 or 4 days appear to lag in growth compared to froglets fed more regularly. I am not proposing that daily feedings are required, rather I am proposing feeding 1-2x per week does not appear to promote optimal growth rates in the froglets I keep. Lots of variable can come into this with microfauna, temps, competition, stress etc. Just wanted to clarify I did not suggest daily feeding was required, but am questioning what is the ideal feeding schedule for optimal growth - given the above mentioned variables that answer will probably vary from hobbiest to hobbiest and even tank to tank. That is the reason i was interested in a matrix or body mass index of sorts, so folks can feel confident that what they are doing is producing froglets and juveniles that fall into that "ideal" threshold.


Sorry, there was an implication in the discussion that feedings needed to be on a daily basis and that is what I was addressing. 




JL-Exotics said:


> Again, the idea is not to keep the froglets alive - but to see them thrive and fulfill their optimal growth potential. A 2 week old froglet would not make it to week 6 without food. They are too small and lack enough fat reserves for that kind of sustained starvation. The long time to starvation impacts appears to be related to adult frogs and not juveniles that are actively growing and it does not reflect the desired optimal growth potential.


While the reference was done on adults.. there isn't any indication in the literature that I have seen that indicates thier metabolic responses are different... (contextually, a lack of the plasticity seen in the adults in juveniles would be very counter adaptive..). Time scale may be different due to body mass but the theory should hold and should also be scalable. I have more on this below. 



JL-Exotics said:


> I had not considered an underlying issue as I have seen it across many species and in froglets I have received from other breeders. I have also spoken to other breeders that have made similar observations. An underlying issue is always a possibility however, and you make a good point to raise that variable.


The more I look at the literature, the more I see across anuran taxa how significant impacts on the tadpole stage carry over into the metamorphs and beyond. Nutritional, time to hatching, competition, exposure to predators, temperature, and/or water quality/exposure as tadpoles can fitness and survivorship up to a year later (this is in no way an all inclusive list).. I'm starting to really think we cannot decouple this metamorphs and the tadpole stage is probably where we really need to start... 



JL-Exotics said:


> Whew! Lets try and get a firm grip on the feeding aspects before we tackle environmental variables please!


The more I review the literature and refresh myself on it, the more I'm starting to think, that it may be impossible to seperate them... 

Ed


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