# Feeding a pumilio tad???



## SAS

I have just acquired a pumilio pair with a tad. I am worried that after they shipped, the pair won't care for the tad anymore. If this is the case, what options might I have to feed the tad myself? Or is that a lost cause?


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## Buddysfrogs

Did you have the pair shipped ? Or did you buy an entire setup with a tad.
Buddy


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## SAS

They were shipped. The tad was removed from its brom and put in a jar. So far the parents have been ignoring the tad.


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## SAS

The tad does look very healthy. Should I wait to see if the parents take to it?


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## Nismo95

all you can do is wait.. But, be ready for them to ditch it.. after the trauma of shipping I am sure caring for a tad is the least of their concerns.. Luckily for you though their is some promise they will be quick to recover and give you more tadpoles!


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## Gamble

I think Ed has mentioned that there has been instances of chicken egg yolk being used to feed pum tads.


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## RobertN

it is better to put each in a brome's axel then feeding them yourself. There is a good chance that the female will feed them.


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## Bcs TX

Do you have any other pums that are breeding?
I recently moved a tad from my blue jeans viv and exchanged it with one of my cristobals tads and moved the cristobal tad to a new fc next to one of darklands fc with a tad. 
So far, been 2 weeks now the cristobal female is feeding the BJ tad and the darkland female is feeding the cristobal tad.
Still soon in the game but so far so good.
From what I have read the egg yolk technique rarely works. If you do not have any other pums to surrogate the tad you can move the tad to a fc (be sure to wear gloves) and maybe they will raise it.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Congrats on your new pums!


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## Dendro Dave

Gamble said:


> I think Ed has mentioned that there has been instances of chicken egg yolk being used to feed pum tads.


I have used egg yoke for a darklands tad...and it ALMOST worked...but the tad died before morphing. It did survive for a couple weeks though. And I did see it actually eat the yolk. I don't know if I didn't do frequent enough water changes or what... It is very easy to foul the water by getting to much egg white/yoke in there. I would probably use a syringe to extract it if I was trying it again. You can get big ones without the needle (which may work) in most pharmacy. Also similar syringes are sometimes used to feed pets or babies I think. I would probably do daily water changes too...I may have tried to wait 2 days, maybe 3 at times with that Darklands tad...it was years ago, I don't remember.

At the very least it could buy you some time till the parents realize they have a tad to feed, and you can secure other eggs to feed.

As for an actual solution with a decent chance of working the best advice is to hit up the newt/salamander/axolotl forums like caudata.org and buy some of the eggs often for sale. I'm not sure I'd mention you intend to use them to feed something else...some sellers may not like that idea, but that is your ethical call to make.

There are at least 2 recent ads up on caudata for eggs right now...you can also post a want ad, and google other newt/salamander/axolotl forums to find more possible sources.
Here is the USA forsale section on caudata...
For Sale, Give-Away or Trade - FS: USA at Caudata.org Newt and Salamander Portal

*Michael Shrom* who is a member here on DB and caudata.org also breeds a lot of newt/salamanders and usually has eggs of something...I don't know if he'd be willing to part with any to use as food but as far as specific people that likely have eggs on hand he is the only name that comes to mind other then the ones with ads already up. There may be dart keepers here too that are willing to give/sell/trade eggs in order to save someone elses frog if the have an over abundance of eggs.

You could also post a want ad here on DB, someone may be in position and willing to help by providing you with eggs of some amphibian species. Many dart keepers are also involved in keeping other species.

So I'd use a little chicken yoke to buy you some time, and act fast to get some kinda other eggs...*axolotl are probably the best bet* since they are so frequently for sale. You do run a small risk of cross contamination though, so it may be best to pull the tad and keep it alive with chicken egg yolk then feed axolotl eggs when you get them, and then keep it separate from other frogs till it is fairly sure to be healthy.

It is a tough call to decide whether to keep it in with the parents and hope they eventually take over...but *if you do have to feed egg yolk it will be very difficult to maintain water quality in a bromiliad/film can*

So the safest thing for every frog involved is probably to pull the tad and raise it completely outside the tank with very frequent water changes.


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## Sherman

I have had some success feeding Dendrobates eggs to pumilio tadpoles. 
I had a bastimentos mother pass away in the middle of rearing four tads. They all had tiny little back legs and I just couldn't watch them wither away. I fed each one a _D. tinctorius_ or _D. auratus_ egg every three days. The eggs contained the albumen and the yolks. The tadpoles would chew through the egg white and devour the yolks. The only egg that did not get eaten was an infertile or bad egg. Feeling a little bad about feeding off my good eggs, I waited to find a bad egg in a clutch of dwarf cobalt tincs. This egg showed no sign of development after three days. I separated the egg from the clutch and placed it in a cup that contained a tadpole that had eaten surrogate eggs before. The egg remained untouched for two days before I removed it. I was afraid the egg would begin to adversely effect the water quality. I added a good/fresh egg and it was greedily consumed.
All four frogs successfully morphed out, are four months old, and are all currently doing well. 
>Knock on wood.<


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## Trey

You may find this helpful; Robbster.com. 

Click on the tab, " alternatives for obligates"


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## Baltimore Bryan

I tried egg yolk once, and it didn't work. They lived for about a week, but like others said, it's hard to feed egg yolk without it just making a mess of the water quality. 

The salamander eggs might work, but I have heard of people successfully using other dendrobatid eggs (auratus, tinctorius, etc.) I think I read that part of the difficulty in artificially raising pumilio tadpoles is that their mouth parts are specifically designed to be able to eat pumilio eggs. So frogs that are fairly closely related, like auratus, may have a better chance of having eggs that will work for pumilio tadpoles than eggs from fish or salamanders. 

I once had a pair of pumilio produce way too many tadpoles (12+) for the female to raise. I didn't have any other pumilio at the time to try surrogating, so I offered them up for free on here. A local member with more pumilio took some and added them into tank where females were caring for eggs/ tadpoles, and he updated me saying that at least some of them successfully morphed out. If you don't have any other options, you might try posting on here to see if anyone nearby would like to try surrogating them with other pumilio.

Good luck,
Bryan


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## Pumilo

Around 10 years or so ago I was working with some blue pumilio. No name other than Blue Pumilio back then. I tried the chicken egg yolk thing. Kept one alive about a month. It never grew it all.


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## epiphytes etc.

Robb Melancon has done some experimenting. Click on " Alternatives for Obligates"

Robbster.com


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## hypostatic

You know, I have a pack or prawn roe in the freezer for feeding fish and corals, and I've always wondered if pumilio rads would be interested in them...

Since pumilio tads eat dendrobates eggs, do you thing they'd go for other frog species' eggs? Like something that produces a lot of eggs at a high frequency, and is widely available and cheap? Something like xenopus or bullfrogs (I don't know about their breeding habits)?

Seems to me like someone could make a profitable business out of selling frogs eggs to DB members...


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## Dendro Dave

hypostatic said:


> You know, I have a pack or prawn roe in the freezer for feeding fish and corals, and I've always wondered if pumilio rads would be interested in them...
> 
> Since pumilio tads eat dendrobates eggs, do you thing they'd go for other frog species' eggs? Like something that produces a lot of eggs at a high frequency, and is widely available and cheap? Something like xenopus or bullfrogs (I don't know about their breeding habits)?
> 
> Seems to me like someone could make a profitable business out of selling frogs eggs to DB members...


I thought it was on the robbster link, but I didn't see it. But I just skimmed it this time... I have heard of newt eggs (I think with some success) being used which is why I suggested the axolotl. I think other frog eggs probably have a good shot.


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## epiphytes etc.

It's in the link, but maybe under the histo/sylvatica section. In short, though, he said the tads refused bullfrog eggs.


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## hypostatic

Gahhh sorry about that. The page doesn't really display correctly on my iPad, and I couldn't scroll through it


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## Dendro Dave

I wonder if breaking the egg open from other frog/newt/sally species would encourage them to eat it. There may be a smell/taste or structure in the "shell" that prevents them from eating or turns off some tads.

I wonder if fertilized vs unfertilized eggs would make a difference? From a species survival stand point not eating fertilized eggs would mean more tads...but on the individual animal level eating them may mean less competition and help ensure personal survival.


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## hypostatic

hey does anyone have a picture side by side of a regular pumilio egg, and a pumilio feeder egg?


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## Gamble

This may sound like a stupid question, 
But is there any possibility that feeding different eggs could change a pum tads dna in any way?
(I swear I wasn't watching the scifi channel or anything before I asked this)


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## hypostatic

Like mutate their DNA? I wouldn't think so.

I think the biggest limitation with using different eggs is that pumilio/oophaga feeder eggs might have some sort of exclusive hormone or other molecule that alters gene expression. Which could be why using non pumilio/oophaga works so poorly.

It fascinates me that we know so little about the most well-studied dart frog.

Speaking of which, I remember there was some PhD student looking for dart frog topics to study some time ago....


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## stu&shaz

We are 2 weeks in,to a similar situation. We have just had a cem basti pop front legs.But it took slightly longer than I hoped.Meanwhile we had a clutch of 5 red frog beach that had hatched.We have managed to keep them going using other dart eggs as feeders,well 3 out of 5 are still going. It has been a wonderful learning curve so far,watching the tad dance for the first time was in it's self almost worth this attempt. My hopes were centered around mum cem basti taking over,if I could just keep them alive long enough.She ignored them while her own tad was in situ.I removed him earlier this week with 4 good legs to morphout elsewhere,as we did with our first batch. Damn me i got home yesterday and she had fed the tad that I had used to replace her own offspring with.3 feeder eggs. These have been distributed between the 3 tads and all are eaten this morning.I'm singularly amazed to have got them this far.My hopes are that as they get stronger the stimulli they give to mum might just be strong enough for her to take over completely,who knows,but so far so good.

The little bit I know so far is this: tiny just hatched pum tads struggle with the jelly.Removing the very last bit of jelly takes some doing,without breaking the yolks,ha I'd call it an art form.I'm using a small pipette with a mouth just big enough to suck up the yolk,and a plastic plant label to aid in separation of jelly.Any uneaten eggs being removed after 24hours,I'm very aware of fouling the water. The pum feeder eggs don't seem to be covered in jelly if i can get a chance i'll try and get a pic or two up for you of some pum feeder eggs in with tad if mum obliges.

I don't think my chances are high for success,but every day this goes on their chances improve plus,I now have a little frog helping things along,which just maybe have put the odds in our favour .

Here is my only picture so far,its a day old red frog beach attacking an auratus egg,you can see that from the back end of the tad it has got through that last bit of jelly I mentioned and is feeding,besides the more obvious half munched yolk


This was the first tad to actually feed it instantly seemed to grow and is much larger now than the other two,doubtless the reason he got there and the other two didn't straight away,could be found in the jelly that I hadn't removed to a high enough standard with my first poor attempts at this. 

Good luck and congrats on your new frogs

Stu


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## TDK

I posted about a similar problem the other day http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/105513-just-got-lucky-maybe.html where I found and El Dorado tad with rear legs in the substrate and returned it to the container and haven't seen the female feed it since. I tried feeding it egg yoke with an eye dropper without much luck and it did make a mess. It is still alive and I add a little piece of flake food hoping it may eat but haven't witnessed it yet. What if you soft boiled an egg and used a small section of the egg? Easier to control the amount and it would be somewhat solid, at least for awhile, and then any uneaten could be removed with a eye dropper. Anybody tried this?


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## oddlot

Gamble said:


> This may sound like a stupid question,
> But is there any possibility that feeding different eggs could change a pum tads dna in any way?
> (I swear I wasn't watching the scifi channel or anything before I asked this)


Nick,If you eat a pork chop,will it change your DNA...


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## hypostatic

stu&shaz said:


> The little bit I know so far is this: tiny just hatched pum tads struggle with the jelly.Removing the very last bit of jelly takes some doing,without breaking the yolks,ha I'd call it an art form.I'm using a small pipette with a mouth just big enough to suck up the yolk,and a plastic plant label to aid in separation of jelly.Any uneaten eggs being removed after 24hours,I'm very aware of fouling the water. The pum feeder eggs don't seem to be covered in jelly if i can get a chance i'll try and get a pic or two up for you of some pum feeder eggs in with tad if mum obliges.


Hmmm so the pumilio feeder eggs don't have ANY albumin? And have you tried using a high gauge syringe (the really thin ones) to remove the albumin? I'd imagine it would be easier.










So the auratus egg is circled in red, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but pumilio eggs are white while auratus are black. I wonder if the color matters much. Oh and how much larger are the auratus eggs than the pumilio eggs?

Sorry for all the questions, I don't even have any oophaga, but I'm just really interested haha


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## stu&shaz

hypostatic said:


> Hmmm so the pumilio feeder eggs don't have ANY albumin? And have you tried using a high gauge syringe (the really thin ones) to remove the albumin? I'd imagine it would be easier.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So the auratus egg is circled in red, correct? Correct me if I'm wrong, but pumilio eggs are white while auratus are black. I wonder if the color matters much. Oh and how much larger are the auratus eggs than the pumilio eggs?
> 
> Sorry for all the questions, I don't even have any oophaga, but I'm just really interested haha


I guess it IS really interesting,that's why i'm being a mad sod and trying this,so no apologies kiddo.

Basically I'm following Mr Melancom's lead,already quoted here.whether the syringe would do a better job,I'm not sure,I think it would be harder to suck with one hand whist holding the jellywith the other hand . the pipette i'm using looks exactly like a mini turkey baster,so one can be pretty precise using thumb and forefinger for suction and the rest of the hand for control.Would you be so kind as to post a picture of the syringe you're thinking of please,it may well be a better method,I just don't know!!

The egg you have circled is an auratus egg,but there is another half/3/4 eaten egg directly in front of tad's nose! sort of crescent shaped. He was actually feeding as I took the pic,but must have backed off slightly as the shutter came down. Granted the picture is slightly out of focus,for the tad,which doesn't help matters does it?
I don't think the feeder eggs,please correct but trophic eggs,I think might be best terminology have albumin. There are folks here who have forgotton more than I know about pums,so i'm sure someone will confirm both of these factors,or put us right. 

The 3 eggs I saw yesterday were slightly grey in colour,incidentally the auratus eggs in water go pale by the next day,almost as one would expect,from an egg that has died. I don't think colour is a factor at all:all 3 tads attacked the eggs with some vigour,but 2 were obviously hampered by the jelly,I could barely see that jelly,but it was very clear what was happening as i could see the tads tearing at it,but always say 1mm away from the actual yolk. 
Yolk diameter pum 1/2 of auratus...give or take,again I don't think that is a factor,as pictured tad nailed that egg very quickly once he got to the yolk.

I'll reiterate I'm telling you what I see,I'm no expert in any way shape or form,I'm a stockman exploring all I can learn with our frogs,both reading and doing. We are accumulating knowledge if you like.We have reared pums by pulling and leaving with parents,so this is an extension of that really. We might oneday be in Chris Sherman's position^^^ or the Op's for that matter or even that old chestnut of a brom dropping dead at just the wrong time.If that situation does ever occur,I might just be able to give those little guys a chance armed with what i'm learning,now. But at this point,I'm just amazed that those tiny things are still alive,I would think oophaga are so damn specialised that chances of rearing all 3 are very VERY slim,but hell i'm getting a bit of help,so who knows.
I'll repeat though watching tiny tiny pum tads skimming across the surface trying to get me to feed them is enchanting to say the least,it's been worth it just for that. I find that pretty incredible to be honest...how does that work??? A tiny tad just out of an egg responding to a person,shouldn't that tad treat me as a predator and hide.
Hypostatic,I don't know your name,so can only call you that,but aren't your words true,we know so damn much about the world,but so damn little about these frogs.
That is so so appealing to me 

Stu


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## Gamble

oddlot said:


> Nick,If you eat a pork chop,will it change your DNA...


Lol ... alright Lou, you have jokes now?


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## hypostatic

It sounds like you're using a transfer pipette. They look like this:










So I was actually thinking of this type of syringe/needle:










If I was doing something similar, I'd imagine that I would be doing this using two hands. I also imagine that the eggs would be on a flat surface and relatively stationary, and not suspended in a liquid. Using one hand, I would insert the needle into the albumin (the egg white). I would keep that hand there for stabilization purposes (so that the needle does not puncture the yolk). With the other hand I would slowly pull the plunger out until enough albumin was collected.

I think the advantage of using a syringe/needle over a pipette would be increased control. I've used both syringes and pipettes (I work in a laboratory setting), and I would have to say that the syringe is a much more precise instrument. Pulling the plunger out feels so much easier than trying to keep the pressure on the pipette constant. And since the plunger stops if you're not pushing/pulling on it, it's easier to end/pause the collection than with the pipette.


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## stu&shaz

yes that is exactly what i'm using..a transfer pipette,unfortunately I can't see the picture of the syringe.Is it possible you could post again,as your help and advice,especially coming from someone that uses these tools is hugely helpful and appreciated. I'd really like to know your name please,I like calling folks by their given name regardless of the fact we are on other side of the world. 

Finally I've got your picture of feeder eggs,I'll post later for you, another 3 laid today,fantastic!! 

Stu


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## hypostatic

Ok, here's another pic, hopefully it'll work.










I haven't tried removing the albumin from eggs before, but if I had to do it with a tool that I had lying around the lab, I think a syringe/needle would be the first tool I'd try. I'm suggesting it because reading through http://www.robbster.com/ gave me the impression that it can be a fairly delicate task, and that damaging the yolk can happen really easily.

If you decide to try this with a syringe/needle here's a note on them. You'll usually find them as labeled "YG x Z" (ex: 30G x 1/2), where Y = how thick the needle is, and Z = the length of the needle. I'd _imagine_ that you'd want the thinnest needle (the largest Y value, the gauge), with the shortest length. Although, when I think about the viscosity/consistency of albumin you might want to try a thicker needle.

-Dan


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## stu&shaz

Hi Dan,
basically what i'm doing is sucking the yolk out of the jelly,I hope this doesn't come over as me being pedantic, it is not at all.But I wanted that clear as from what I've learnt so far about separating the albumin and yolk,this seems? to be the best method,rather than sucking the albumin off the yolk. It is in no way perfect as I've already illustrated:clearing say 95% is relatively straight forward,the last bit ,being accomplished without breaking the yolk is very tricky. I suspect as a tad gets older this problem is negated by the tapole's aquired strength.But,my observations lead me to the conclusion that it is very important for a newly hatched tad,that doesn't have that vigour.

All that said,I'll get hold of some syringes,of different diameter needles and work on it to see what can be accomplished. Again I appreciate your thoughts and help.cheers.

Dan as promised,these are some feeder eggs,from a female cemetery basti



As an added extra, here's our new little kid. Naturally we are thrilled proud,whatever other expletives one could conjure,so I hope no one minds me showing him off.He must have been out of the water only hours when I captured this. New kids are always special here,it doesn't really matter what species,they are all miracles in our eyes,from our humble leucs to oophaga,it matters not!!

Cool huh 



Stu


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## oddlot

That's a pretty sweet froglet! Congrats.


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## stu&shaz

oddlot said:


> That's a pretty sweet froglet! Congrats.


Despite what i've written in this thread Lou,I can promise no pork,genetically modified or otherwise(not even in egg form) was fed to that froglet...no honestly,no really really honestly.

Thankyou Lou,we waited one hell of a long time for our cems(they are one of my darling's two favourite frogs),we passed them by even though we were desparate to keep,because we needed to be better first. We are beyond thrilled to have kids from them,there is no way for me to articulate that,factor in mum helping me out with the above,what can I say

Stu


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## hypostatic

stu&shaz said:


> Hi Dan,
> basically what i'm doing is sucking the yolk out of the jelly


OH, you're actually _extracting _the yolk from inside of the jelly?? I understood it that you were using the pipette to aspirate as much of the jelly off of the yolk as you can. Using a needle/syringe would be helpful for aspirating the jelly, but I don't know how useful it would be for extracting the yolk from inside the jelly...

All eggs are basically just one big cell (an ostrich egg is one huge single cell). I'm sure some scientist somewhere has needed to separate the yolk from the albumin for some reason, and has published or written about the protocol to do so. I'll review the literature and and post any details I find that might be helpful.

I don't know if this is asking too much, but if you could post a video of how you separate the yolk from the jelly, I'm sure it would be useful for everyone else who is attempting this or is interested


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## hypostatic

This seems to be what you wish to accomplish, correct?


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## oddlot

I wonder how much practice it took to do that.They made it look a lot easier than it is I'm sure.


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## stu&shaz

Dan I am unable to provide a video at this point,it's not that it's too much trouble,just that I am unable.

Thanks for the video,that is almost exactly what I'm trying to accomplish. In the video,look at the first egg separated,look closely at the top of the egg,it's very thin,but that last trace of jelly/albumin is where i see the problem to be(if it is albumin that is!!). Dan I can barely see this on the eggs I'm "splitting," for all the world it looks like I have got that yolk clean away from the albumin. When I pop said yolk in water and tad attempts to feed,then it becomes more visable...more apparent that I've not quite got it perfect.

Dan I have a massive weakness in my country's language,throw in I am almost certain I don't see letters quite like others do,my apologies for not conveying my methods very well. 
I'll recap if it helps at all:

I split an egg from a clutch,this egg is intact.

With my above tools I'll gently break that albumin open

I place the pipette gently over the yolk and apply a tiny bit of suction.

Meanwhile with my other hand I'm gently scrapping away as much jelly as possible.So I'm using the combined forces of suction and scrapping to achieve my goal.

Having the yolk almost protected by the pipette,means one is less likely to break it. 

If one could source a pipette almost the same diameter as the yolk(which is by no means a given!!), and mine is very close,maybe one could get slightly higher grade results.

But,there might just be a fundamental difference in the outer layer of said yolk, in an egg that is destined to hatch, to a feeder egg. I don't know Dan, I'm pondering what i'm seeing with the naked eye. 

Thanks for the video,I wish I could return the favour,maybe one day!

Stu.


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## hypostatic

stu&shaz said:


> Dan I can barely see this on the eggs I'm "splitting," for all the world it looks like I have got that yolk clean away from the albumin. When I pop said yolk in water and tad attempts to feed,then it becomes more visable...more apparent that I've not quite got it perfect.


Well in that video it seems like the eggs are submerged in a liquid. Perhaps submerging the eggs in a differently colored media might help during the yolk extraction process? I know that when I place eggs in tadpole tea the jelly is initially very discernible from the water with tadpole tea.

Also a note from the video -- I think they are separating oocytes that have been dissected from frogs' ovaries. They are separating it form "folicular tissue" I think, which might or might not be similar to the albumen. This is where someone familiar with frog anatomy like Ed might be useful lol.



stu&shaz said:


> If one could source a pipette almost the same diameter as the yolk(which is by no means a given!!), and mine is very close,maybe one could get slightly higher grade results.


Any idea what the diameter of the yolk is? You might be able to find glass pipettes online with a similar diameter. Alternatively, you should be able to get a larger glass pipette, and pull it with a flame to make the diameter smaller. This is commonly done with capillary tubes in the lab, and here's a video of it; slightly different, but same principle.



oddlot said:


> I wonder how much practice it took to do that.They made it look a lot easier than it is I'm sure.


I've extracted oocytes from C. elegans. Not nearly as successfully haha. I imagine it took a good amount of practice


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## dgyoung

The tadpoles of pamilio are egg eaters so if the female doesn't accept it your screwed!


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## stu&shaz

dgyoung said:


> The tadpoles of pamilio are egg eaters so if the female doesn't accept it your screwed!


 You need to tell that to those 3 tadpoles living upstairs,that are alive initially without mum pumillio's help
If your brom has just died or you are in the OP's position,you're already screwed,so this is about exploring if there might be an option to rear the little fella by other means,including surrogacy, and not just let it die. So I have a female that is now feeding one tad that is not her's and although she hasn't realised,she is also helping me feed the other two.all 3 are doing ok,so far growing slow but sure and alive,still much to my amazement. So as above despite me expecting to loose this one,I haven't yet,plus I've learnt loads for the future and seen things I haven't seen before.
If one leaves aside the ethical or moral debate about rearing a pum tad other than by "natural" means,surely it's better to try? I'm very prepared to fail,I'm very prepared to have wasted my time although I'll never see it that way.time spent observing and learning about our frogs is never wasted. In fact this has been a joy. 

Stu


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## dgyoung

Now if someone could develop a food that will replace a moms egg for egg eating tadpoles that person would be rich and it would be awesome because it would be easier to raise tadpoles of ones that "prefer" to eat underutilized eggs.


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## DaysAndDarts

Any update from the OP?


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## Robert.hallam

Wish there was more news as to what became of this! I try to read whatever i can about people experimenting with pum tadpole feeding and this was one of the best threads


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## Sherman

Sherman said:


> I have had some success feeding Dendrobates eggs to pumilio tadpoles.
> I had a bastimentos mother pass away in the middle of rearing four tads. They all had tiny little back legs and I just couldn't watch them wither away. I fed each one a _D. tinctorius_ or _D. auratus_ egg every three days. The eggs contained the albumen and the yolks. The tadpoles would chew through the egg white and devour the yolks. The only egg that did not get eaten was an infertile or bad egg. Feeling a little bad about feeding off my good eggs, I waited to find a bad egg in a clutch of dwarf cobalt tincs. This egg showed no sign of development after three days. I separated the egg from the clutch and placed it in a cup that contained a tadpole that had eaten surrogate eggs before. The egg remained untouched for two days before I removed it. I was afraid the egg would begin to adversely effect the water quality. I added a good/fresh egg and it was greedily consumed.
> All four frogs successfully morphed out, are four months old, and are all currently doing well.
> >Knock on wood.<



Here is a little update from me:
All four frogs raised on surrogate eggs are alive and well. The only odd thing I notice is that they do not seem to be attaining what I would expect to be a normal size for a captive frog. The last frog out of the water in particular is the smallest. I am assuming there is a correlation to the surrogate egg feeding, but with such a small sample size and no naturally raised siblings, this is merely an assumption.
Chris Sherman


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## Robert.hallam

Sherman said:


> Here is a little update from me:
> All four frogs raised on surrogate eggs are alive and well. The only odd thing I notice is that they do not seem to be attaining what I would expect to be a normal size for a captive frog. The last frog out of the water in particular is the smallest. I am assuming there is a correlation to the surrogate egg feeding, but with such a small sample size and no naturally raised siblings, this is merely an assumption.
> Chris Sherman


Thats great news that theyre alive! Im very curious if epipedobates antonyi eggs would work as feeders, its so easy to come up with a surplus of good eggs from them, what do you think?


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## Sherman

Robert.hallam said:


> Thats great news that theyre alive! Im very curious if epipedobates antonyi eggs would work as feeders, its so easy to come up with a surplus of good eggs from them, what do you think?


It's not what I think that matters. I do not know.
If I had that situation, I would certainly try it.
I think my success was due to the fact that the tadpoles were started by the mother. I am not sure that the tadpoles would have started out on the Dendrobates eggs. It is my understanding that the albumen works as a barrier preventing access to the yolk.


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## hypostatic

Maybe the dendrobates eggs aren't as nutritious as the oophaga feeder eggs?

Or maybe the tads expend a lot of energy chewing through the egg whites so they get a lower net gain of energy/nutrients from the dendrobates eggs?


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## stu&shaz

Our experiment ended in failure,unfortunately,all 3 made it to morphout and popped front legs,but they didn't get out the other side and make it to land. Honestly I thought this might be the cut off point. But learn a lot I did, although those little guys didn't make it,lets just say for the moment it wasn't in vein. I have some others here that probably are still here because of this. My words about a brom failing came back and bit me well and truly,that little tad is now a few months old and doing well.

Chris, I have a hunch,these frogs are feeding way more than we think,I wouldn't say that is the complete reason for low growth rate,but it's a thought,beyond all the other possible factors we simply do not know about. I also know that a hand reared froglet that comes ootw small can definitely catch up that lost size,contradicting myself here, but I do suspect lack of food might be a player in all this. As a side note doing this has taught my how sporadic oophaga growth rates are,get some good grub into them and the growth that follows over the next few days is astounding,well to me anyway. It's just so different to the other frogs I've reared. Oh it also appears albumin is present in oophaga feeder eggs,maybe consistency is different making it easier for tad to access the yolk,who knows? 

Please note guys, this is all observation driven,no cast iron facts here,as I learn more things might change. I guess circumstances will arise where by this process is repeated,so the learning won't stop

best

Stu


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## Sherman

Stu, 
I think you are right about the frequency of feedings. If I ever have to do it over, I will try to offer surrogate eggs daily. I would inspect to see that the previous egg has been consumed and if so, add another. I suspect this would have a positive effect on the size of the froglets. 
I would also try to keep records. "I fed each one... every three days." is by no means accurate. It is at best an estimation.
I suspect that the albumen of obligate eggs are "softer" than other frogs so that the newborn tadpoles can penetrate them with ease. I wonder if there are any appreciable differences between membranes of eggs intended for fertilization and those destined as feeders.
Chris.


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