# I just finished fixing a waterfall terrarium!



## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

This is my first attempt at a waterfall vive. Some mistakes were made. Mostly that I didn't realize "PVC" foam board existed and was suggested to use "foam board" when I asked a builder on YouTube what was used to house the water pump and what I found locally was elmers craft foam board. It seemed weird to me but I figured the pro knew his stuff. I asked at both hardware and craft stores, neither of what was suggested was very good but the most useful might be what ever the weird bendy plastic material I got at the hardware store was as I ended up using it to fix the build after ripping out much of the disintegrating Elmers craft foam board. I also used pond filter sponge that I cut up a bit on both the bottom and the top as a cork from getting debris and such into the pump house.

Now all I need are some inhabitants! I'm thinking possibly arturus? Suggestions welcome! It's a 40 gallon exoterra.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello, that's a beautiful vivarium. 

I would not, however, recommend putting any dart frogs in there. There appears to be very little usable floorspace for the frogs to use as it is either water or plants. This is not a recommended approach for dart frogs.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Really lovely display. 

I really like to chose the species first, and then build the enclosure to suit it, but there are a few folks here who keep semiaquatic animals who might be able to suggest a species for your semiaquatic enclosure.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

The only thing I could see working in there is MAYBE a group of freshwater shrimp. Maybe.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Could have T. pictum or asperum in something like that. One of the less aquatic Theloderma's that still appreciate some water.


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

That looks cool. I love paludariums! I feel that combining land and water really makes for a great display. What substrate(s) are you using for your land and water portions? Are you allowing water to communicate with the land portion’s false bottom or did you build a divider?

Are you open to suggestions on livestock and build improvement ideas?

Sorry to bombard you with questions, but the info could help guide others who’d like to chime in.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

vampire crabs would also be great for this setup! 
Unfortunatly Dendrobatidae would not thrive at all ,as already stated.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Tijl said:


> vampire crabs would also be great for this setup!


I would not put vampire crabs in there. They like to burrow and dig, and there's no appreciable soil area for them here.


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## PersephonesChild (11 mo ago)

What about a fire belly toad? I feel like one or two of those might do really well in that enclosure, as they actively enjoy paladarium setups, stay small, and if memory serves from keeping them as a kid, they climb reasonably well, certainly enough to make use of portions of the elevated back section.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Hello, that's a beautiful vivarium.
> 
> I would not, however, recommend putting any dart frogs in there. There appears to be very little usable floorspace for the frogs to use as it is either water or plants. This is not a recommended approach for dart frogs.


There is actually quite a bit of floor space and hiding places so your assumptions are incorrect. Less than half of the 40gallons of space is water and what after there is is no deeper than a half inch. I read that arturus love to have a little wading pool. I made sure the water was aerated with a waterfall and pump so there is none standing. As plants hate that even more than the frogs and would die faster. I also like that they are commununal. I did my research contrary to what you may think.

In fact there are actually TWO coco huts in there but the second one is hidden in the back behind some plants so you really have no idea if you think there isn't enough floor space for dart frogs...

Like I get you're a mod and big time dart frogger but this response reeks of gate keeping.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

solidsnake said:


> That looks cool. I love paludariums! I feel that combining land and water really makes for a great display. What substrate(s) are you using for your land and water portions? Are you allowing water to communicate with the land portion’s false bottom or did you build a divider?
> 
> Are you open to suggestions on livestock and build improvement ideas?
> 
> Sorry to bombard you with questions, but the info could help guide others who’d like to chime in.


I used a pond sponge false bottom for most of the tank the areas that are the pond are sand and gravel. On top the pond sponge I packed layers of soil moss and leaf litter. On the bottom I planted plants I knew ldidnt mind growing along water mostly and towards the back I used climbing plants. The large philo I don't expect to be a permanent resident tbh. I think it's a monstera but I'm not 100%. It was given to me to include in the build and I'm just not convinced it belongs.

I designed it to look kind of like the base of a rotting tree. I noticed my tincs really love having multiple levels of places to hide and explore so I wanted the tank to have a feeling of mutiple levels for them. Fishingguys sees 3inches of space in front of the front coconut and the water and assumes that's the whole tank while ignoring literally all of the rest of it. Most of those cork logs are hollow and there are three rows of plants on that bottom floor. The idea there isn't enough floor space for them to me quite frankly sounds insane.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

solidsnake said:


> That looks cool. I love paludariums! I feel that combining land and water really makes for a great display. What substrate(s) are you using for your land and water portions? Are you allowing water to communicate with the land portion’s false bottom or did you build a divider?
> 
> Are you open to suggestions on livestock and build improvement ideas?
> 
> Sorry to bombard you with questions, but the info could help guide others who’d like to chime in.


There is no divider. That might be my downfall? The soil communicates with the water through the false bottom(the pond sponge) as I wanted to allow the plants to grow. I used a mix of lugartis natural soil because I just really love it tbh and mixed it with some sphagnum moss and topped it with leaf litter. There is a devider that houses the pump however and I used additional pond sponge filter there to filterout any more sand/soil that might get into the pump house.


I will also take livestock suggestions. I did ultimately build the tank for auratus which is why I said that is what I think I want to stock it with. I did some reading on them as I had in my mind to build this tank for communal dart frogs that could live peacefully in a group of 3-5. I also read that they like to hang out in and around water a bit more than the other darts too so I thought it would be lovely to try and build something like this for all our familys enjoyment.


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## amfrogs (Jul 14, 2020)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> There is actually quite a bit of floor space and hiding places so your assumptions are incorrect. Less than half of the 40gallons of space is water and what after there is is no deeper than a half inch. I read that arturus love to have a little wading pool. I made sure the water was aerated with a waterfall and pump so there is none standing. As plants hate that even more than the frogs and would die faster. I also like that they are commununal. I did my research contrary to what you may think.
> 
> In fact there are actually TWO coco huts in there but the second one is hidden in the back behind some plants so you really have no idea if you think there isn't enough floor space for dart frogs...
> 
> Like I get you're a mod and big time dart frogger but this response reeks of gate keeping.


sorry but this is not gate keeping it is the truth. This enclosure is not suitable for frogs at all and nobody wants to see frogs suffer and die. Listen to the advice of people who know more than you, do more research from reliable sources (this site is great), and build an enclosure designed for a specific species which meets its needs. People are just helping you, not trying to ruin your fun.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

amfrogs said:


> sorry but this is not gate keeping it is the truth. This enclosure is not suitable for frogs at all and nobody wants to see frogs suffer and die. Listen to the advice of people who know more than you, do more research from reliable sources (this site is great), and build an enclosure designed for a specific species which meets its needs. People are just helping you, not trying to ruin your fun.


 Lol no the truth would have been a completely different response than what was said. It was gatekeeping and unhelpful and yours is extra egotistical and unhelpful. Wow-yikes. This is not what I come here for.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> Lol no the truth would have been a completely different response than what was said. It was gatekeeping and unhelpful and yours is extra egotistical and unhelpful. Wow-yikes. This is not what I come here for.


Sorry you did not get the response you wanted, but I'am afraid all advice given here is correct so far. I don't see any resaon why annyone on this board would like to waste their time by gatekeeping instead of helping someone out.

I'm 100% conviced you did a lot of research and planning, but I have to say with a lot of shame that over 80% of the information on 'how to keep and care for dartfrogs' topics is either super outdated or made with the only intention to sell as many animals and products possible to the interested consumer or only made for gaining followers or viewers. I'am afraid this is largely the information you found and took as guidline..

Again, the advice given on the worldwide web by sellers or influencers is very different from the information and advice shared from the oint of view by long term eperience on this board. since 99% of the active and experienced forummebers (or mods) only have interest in succesfull keeping, breeding and simply wanting to make the animals thrive so both the animals and (new) keeper can enjoy. There is no other benefit gained for us.

If you'd be interested, here is a link to a recently published 'dartfrogs 101' article I wrote for Aquarium Hobbist magazine and a link to a build topic on how I setup my tanks.
Maybe the can help you as a new guideline in order for you to make some adjustments to turn you tank into a suitable enclosure to house dartfrogs.

the article : Home | Aquarium Hobbyist Magazine

the build topic : 70x50x65cm Vivarium Build.


Still, if you are on doubt feel free to do some more research on this board and it's 1000th topics, there is never any harm done in gathering more knowledge right?


Kind regards,
Tijl

Instagram @urban__jungles


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> There is actually quite a bit of floor space and hiding places so your assumptions are incorrect.
> 
> Like I get you're a mod and big time dart frogger but this response reeks of gate keeping.


Fishingguy12345, Tijl and the others who offered advice really do represent the best practice guidelines when it comes to PDF husbandry. While their advice may not have been exactly what you wanted to hear, it really was truthful. Pretty much all who contributed to your post are advanced keepers to say the least, and their advice was only meant to help, not hurt your ideas or current setup. They’ve looked at X>1000 similar setups, viewed/answered tons of posts and are extremely fluent with the vivarium dimensions. I know that sometimes constructive criticism can sting a bit. This can be more so the case after you’ve done all the research that you’ve obviously done.

I have to echo the fact that much of the info available on the web is outdated and is centered around monetize items and business strategies. Members here have no chance of financial gain so their advice and knowledge is given exclusively through altruism. There’s a good chance these senior members were successfully breeding and keeping several species of PDF at high level long before we even decided to consider buying one ourselves. In short; their advice is certainly worth considering.

With all of that being said, I’d suggest you keep on keepin on and continue to research what livestock would not only survive, but thrive In the environment you’ve created(there are many). Or, simply make a few changes and move forward with your PDF idea.

Just some friendly thoughts


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> yours is extra egotistical


We're not going to attack people here. DB users are often up for heated debates -- with supporting evidence -- of husbandry methodology, but once things get to personal jabs it is going to end very quickly. No one here is obligated to give husbandry advice that is anything but supported by reasons, but everyone here is obligated to keep it very civil.

On recommendations: posters here tend to give advice that's pretty conservative. Sometimes it is conservative for the animals' benefit; auratus have a home range of tens of square meters of mostly leaf litter, and a vertical range of tens of meters, so every single element of a one half cubic meter box is best maximally usable by the frogs. 

Sometimes it is conservative for the keepers' benefit: some people claim to do well with maintaining paludaria. Many do not, as they're exceedingly complicated ways to solve a very simple housing need, and have many more points of potential failure than a terrestrial enclosure. Many of us (myself included) have attempted various sorts of water "features" for darts and failed (I killed a frog, and spent hours saving another, from an ill-advised water area). Concern for a keepers' benefit is kind of paternalistic, but that's the nature of advice, and when we log off for the day many of us would like to think that we've given advice that will save someone trouble rather than perpetuate trouble. 

And sometimes claims get a little overstated. For example, your frogs probably aren't going to die because of the viv design (somewhat in the same way that a person probably won't get lung cancer from smoking cigarettes; statistics are funny things). But those are claims that are simply worth questioning ("Why do you say they'll die, exactly? Do you really mean that, or is this hyperbole?"), but also are worth considering what the grain of truth is in them. In this case, I think it is that the more elements of captive life the captives have to tolerate -- like tolerating group housing; dart frogs aren't communal, but some of them tolerate exceedingly close forced contact with heterospecifics better than others, at least well enough that whatever stress is caused by that situation isn't clearly noticeable by most keepers -- the less well they'll be likely to fare long term. 

And that's what many people here seem to be after: long term success that isn't necessarily flashy or super exciting. Much of the info available on the web is super shiny videos that are mostly really slick advertising, or cut and pasted garbage that is mostly an Amazon storefront. That flashy misinformation caters to a lot of people's desires, but many posters here seem to be attempting to undermine that sort of wish fulfillment. This sort of advice isn't for everyone, at least not right now, but that doesn't mean it is worth making into a personal conflict.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

solidsnake said:


> Fishingguy12345, Tijl and the others who offered advice really do represent the best practice guidelines when it comes to PDF husbandry. While their advice may not have been exactly what you wanted to hear, it really was truthful. Pretty much all who contributed to your post are advanced keepers to say the least, and their advice was only meant to help, not hurt your ideas or current setup. They’ve looked at X>1000 similar setups, viewed/answered tons of posts and are extremely fluent with the vivarium dimensions. I know that sometimes constructive criticism can sting a bit. This can be more so the case after you’ve done all the research that you’ve obviously done.
> 
> I have to echo the fact that much of the info available on the web is outdated and is centered around monetize items and business strategies. Members here have no chance of financial gain so their advice and knowledge is given exclusively through altruism. There’s a good chance these senior members were successfully breeding and keeping several species of PDF at high level long before we even decided to consider buying one ourselves. In short; their advice is certainly worth considering.
> 
> ...


Fishing guys didn't even offer advice. He just said. "There's no floor space don't put frogs in it" which there absolutely is floor space and was incredibly unhelpful "advice". If there is a problem with the water feature it's not the lack of floor space.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> Fishing guys didn't even offer advice. He just said. "There's no floor space don't put frogs in it" which there absolutely is floor space and was incredibly unhelpful "advice".


You might want to cautiously read what he posted again. 

He replied with and I quote : There APPEARS to be very little usable floorspace for the frogs.
and he is absoluyely correct in pointing this out. 

His comment probablly did lack some advice on why, how, his reasoning and what to do to fix the issue on this setup not beeing suitable for housing frogs.
I won't argue with that.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

Tijl said:


> You might want to cautiously read what he posted again.
> 
> He replied with and I quote : There APPEARS to be very little usable floorspace for the frogs.
> and he is absoluyely correct in pointing this out.
> ...


Precisely my issue. There is no real advice in that comment it just sounds like gatekeeping.

[Edit]

Tbh I still have yet to recieve literally any bit of useful advice from a single person in this thread. All I've gotten so far is"our advice is the best, do more research" no suggestions on how to fix or what to stock it with.

Edit 2- rereading your second post and yours is probably the most helpful so far. I'll keep looking into it.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

solidsnake said:


> Fishingguy12345, Tijl and the others who offered advice really do represent the best practice guidelines when it comes to PDF husbandry. While their advice may not have been exactly what you wanted to hear, it really was truthful. Pretty much all who contributed to your post are advanced keepers to say the least, and their advice was only meant to help, not hurt your ideas or current setup. They’ve looked at X>1000 similar setups, viewed/answered tons of posts and are extremely fluent with the vivarium dimensions. I know that sometimes constructive criticism can sting a bit. This can be more so the case after you’ve done all the research that you’ve obviously done.
> 
> I have to echo the fact that much of the info available on the web is outdated and is centered around monetize items and business strategies. Members here have no chance of financial gain so their advice and knowledge is given exclusively through altruism. There’s a good chance these senior members were successfully breeding and keeping several species of PDF at high level long before we even decided to consider buying one ourselves. In short; their advice is certainly worth considering.
> 
> ...


Do you think mossy tree frogs could work here? I thought they required deeper water? I have always wanted some of those however. I think their call is rather pleasant.


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

To be completely honest, I don’t keep frogs of any kind. My experience is mainly with snakes, monitors and fresh water aquaria. I’m somewhat familiar with general PDF husbandry practices simply from being on the board for a while and reading quite a bit.

I’ve seen a few members on here post topics on keeping Theloderma (mossy frogs). From what little I know, I do think they’d be a better choice given your current setup. Other, more experienced keepers will certainly offer their input on keeping them if you choose to ask.

I have built/maintained several paludaria, tropical and arid vivariums though and can possibly offer some insight on how to make yours more successful in the long run. From your previous post, I do see some areas of improvement if you’re interested in following through with the paludarium idea.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

solidsnake said:


> To be completely honest, I don’t keep frogs of any kind. My experience is mainly with snakes, monitors and fresh water aquaria. I’m somewhat familiar with general PDF husbandry practices simply from being on the board for a while and reading quite a bit.
> 
> I’ve seen a few members on here post topics on keeping Theloderma (mossy frogs). From what little I know, I do think they’d be a better choice given your current setup. Other, more experienced keepers will certainly offer their input on keeping them if you choose to ask.
> 
> I have built/maintained several paludaria, tropical and arid vivariums though and can possibly offer some insight on how to make yours more successful in the long run. From your previous post, I do see some areas of improvement if you’re interested in following through with the paludarium idea.


Yes I am interested. What are your suggestions?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Mayebe @Johanovich can help you cover this since he has experience with Theloderma corticale


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> Yes I am interested. What are your suggestions?


I’m certainly no expert, but I’d suggest you rethink your substrate. I would look into possibly using gravel or an aquarium-oriented substrate. It’ll likely be considerably less prone to wicking moisture. Also, I’d personally use eggcrate as a false bottom if you intend on allowing water to communicate or pass within your false bottom. Also plan for X>1 air gap between water and the base layer of your substrate. Carefully engineer any water-to-land interfaces so that organic materials don’t allow water to wick into your substrate.

Have you drilled your enclosure and installed bulkheads? If not, I would. I’d also incorporate a sump. I’m in love with sumps. They’ll hide your pumps, thermostats, filters and provide an increased volume of water making it easier to maintain prime water quality.

If you’ve never successfully maintained a fresh water aquarium, I’d briefly study up so you understand the basics of water testing. 

A sump may not be 100% necessary, but it can’t hurt.

The addition of a sump, water quality issues and water wicking are all potential build obstacles that can challenge even the more experienced viv builders. This is why new comers and advanced keeper alike stray from building paludaria. Most experienced herp hobbyists often have the notion that:
Simple >Complex

With all of this being said, I can’t offer any meaningful advice on how to cater this design layout particularly to any frogs.

Hopefully some others will offer their opinions too.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

solidsnake said:


> I’m certainly no expert, but I’d suggest you rethink your substrate. I would look into possibly using gravel or an aquarium-oriented substrate. It’ll likely be considerably less prone to wicking moisture. Also, I’d personally use eggcrate as a false bottom if you intend on allowing water to communicate or pass within your false bottom. Also plan for X>1 air gap between water and the base layer of your substrate. Carefully engineer any water-to-land interfaces so that organic materials don’t allow water to wick into your substrate.
> 
> Have you drilled your enclosure and installed bulkheads? If not, I would. I’d also incorporate a sump. I’m in love with sumps. They’ll hide your pumps, thermostats, filters and provide an increased volume of water making it easier to maintain prime water quality.
> 
> ...


What are the downsides of the water wicking into the substrate and what are the advantages of the air gap?

Also bulkheads? Like the partitions in the hull of a ship? What?

Or is it something to do with a misting system? I don't have any automated misting system. I mist by hand. I would like to get one eventually though.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

Btw for those who might be wondering- Naveen(my smallest frog) has gotten bigger but is still smaller than the rest of my Patricias. He/she has gotten rather into glass climbing in the new tank.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> Do you think mossy tree frogs could work here? I thought they required deeper water? I have always wanted some of those however. I think their call is rather pleasant.


Yes... but the water area should increased, So pretty much everywhere open sand is you should dig out and filled with water. I wouldn't use sand in a frog tank, I'm afraid of them swallowing it.

Here are some threads that might be helpful.
Vietnamese Mossy Frog (Theloderma corticale) paludarium
Another mossy frogs (theloderma corticale) paludarium
Mini mossy frogs not eating


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## solidsnake (Jun 3, 2014)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> What are the downsides of the water wicking into the substrate and what are the advantages of the air gap?
> 
> Also bulkheads? Like the partitions in the hull of a ship? What?
> 
> Or is it something to do with a misting system? I don't have any automated misting system. I mist by hand. I would like to get one eventually though.


The air gap will prevent water wicking into your substrate. The downfall of water wicking is that it’ll turn your land portion into a swamp making it difficult to grow some plants. It can also make it difficult for your intended livestock to have a place to be on dry land if they so choose.

A bulkhead will provide provisions to drain your enclosure for various reasons. You also use this same technique to install automated misting systems. You’ll have to drill glass or whatever material the bulkhead is being placed.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Tijl said:


> Mayebe @Johanovich can help you cover this since he has experience with Theloderma corticale





IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Yes... but the water area should increased, So pretty much everywhere open sand is you should dig out and filled with water. I wouldn't use sand in a frog tank, I'm afraid of them swallowing it.
> 
> Here are some threads that might be helpful.
> Vietnamese Mossy Frog (Theloderma corticale) paludarium
> ...


Yup, agreed with this. Deeper water is needed for Theloderma corticale. For mossy frogs, sand is mostly safe. I have sand in my T. corticale tank for several years now with zero issues. Generally the rule is: choose substrate that is either too large to swallow (which admittedly is a bit difficult for T. corticale) or is small enough to pass through without issues. Sand falls in the latter category. Definitely avoid stuff like Sphagnum as the long threads can cause potentially fatal bowel issues when swallowed.

To be honest if you could get rid of most of the land area in front and make it a deeper water area, this is a great Theloderma tank with the wood/simulated roots and the shingling plants on the background.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

Johanovich said:


> Yup, agreed with this. Deeper water is needed for Theloderma corticale. For mossy frogs, sand is mostly safe. I have sand in my T. corticale tank for several years now with zero issues. Generally the rule is: choose substrate that is either too large to swallow (which admittedly is a bit difficult for T. corticale) or is small enough to pass through without issues. Sand falls in the latter category. Definitely avoid stuff like Sphagnum as the long threads can cause potentially fatal bowel issues when swallowed.
> 
> To be honest if you could get rid of most of the land area in front and make it a deeper water area, this is a great Theloderma tank with the wood/simulated roots and the shingling plants on the background.


Thank you. I might consider that. I am also now considering someone else's suggestion of fire Belly toads.


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## N. Veen (Aug 26, 2020)

My advice, simply start over. See the hours you spent on the current enclosure as learing time.
Do not think off dart frogs as most common frogs that hop around in your'e back yard and stay in the water all the time. They are more toad like, living only on the dry spaces not in the water. The only time they actively use water is for they'r offspring. Or in some cases if the frogs is ill. A healty frog won't drown if they have acces too exits. But they wont go swimming for fun.

And as a side note, my experience with exo terra enclosures is that they arent fruit fly proove. They will get out on mass if you do not prevent that with a few modifications.

I can assure you that the current enclosure isn't suitable for dart frogs. And that they will over time perish for sure. 

There are a lot off topics on how too build an enclosure that is suitable for dart frogs here. Make use off it is my advice.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Johanovich said:


> Yup, agreed with this. Deeper water is needed for Theloderma corticale. For mossy frogs, sand is mostly safe. I have sand in my T. corticale tank for several years now with zero issues. Generally the rule is: choose substrate that is either too large to swallow (which admittedly is a bit difficult for T. corticale) or is small enough to pass through without issues. Sand falls in the latter category. Definitely avoid stuff like Sphagnum as the long threads can cause potentially fatal bowel issues when swallowed.
> 
> To be honest if you could get rid of most of the land area in front and make it a deeper water area, this is a great Theloderma tank with the wood/simulated roots and the shingling plants on the background.


Yes I suppose your probably right. I use cocofiber mat I don't really have any lose substrate in any of my paludariums. I still wonder if sand could cause irritation "like when you get sand in your shorts at the beach" but there is such a thing as smooth grain sand so that might solve any potential problems
.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

Johanovich said:


> Yup, agreed with this. Deeper water is needed for Theloderma corticale. For mossy frogs, sand is mostly safe. I have sand in my T. corticale tank for several years now with zero issues. Generally the rule is: choose substrate that is either too large to swallow (which admittedly is a bit difficult for T. corticale) or is small enough to pass through without issues. Sand falls in the latter category. Definitely avoid stuff like Sphagnum as the long threads can cause potentially fatal bowel issues when swallowed.
> 
> To be honest if you could get rid of most of the land area in front and make it a deeper water area, this is a great Theloderma tank with the wood/simulated roots and the shingling plants on the background.


So I redid the bottom part of the tank a bit and I'll be perfecting the arrangement, letting things settle and figuring out how to maintain a deper water paludarium over the next few months. It was not with out great pain and moments of regret for listening to assholes on the internet tbf. I am kind of excited for trying something new though. I can be happy with the change should it be acceptable for mossy frogs. I really have always wanted some, for longer than PDF, actually. I read they like rocks.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

a lot of prey insects die in water features. A lot of CuC insects too. Accounting for dusted prey insects is tricky and sometimes too hard, with certain water features.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> So I redid the bottom part of the tank a bit and I'll be perfecting the arrangement, letting things settle and figuring out how to maintain a deper water paludarium over the next few months. It was not with out great pain and moments of regret for listening to assholes on the internet tbf. I am kind of excited for trying something new though. I can be happy with the change should it be acceptable for mossy frogs. I really have always wanted some, for longer than PDF, actually. I read they like rocks.
> View attachment 307508


Looks good to me! I find that crickets can swim pretty well and I hardly ever have any drown before my frogs eat them.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

the water feature causes loss of superfine dusting. That must be accounted for. Chameleon keeps feed in clear plastic bins ect - for instance.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Yes if they enter the water, though I don't really have a problem with crickets entering the water as they get eaten in less than 20 minutes. OP should be fine as long as they are careful not to drop crickets in the water.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

oh yeah...'don't drop crix in the water', That will work. They will NEVER fall in themselves.


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## AGirlKeepsFrogs (Oct 23, 2021)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Yes if they enter the water, though I don't really have a problem with crickets entering the water as they get eaten in less than 20 minutes. OP should be fine as long as they are careful not to drop crickets in the water.


To be honest I don't really feed crickets. They eat Dubia fine right? I have a couple Dubia culture set up and occasionally sell off the extras as my collection is not really that big. Do they tong feed well? I may get them a dish.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> To be honest I don't really feed crickets. They eat Dubia fine right? I have a couple Dubia culture set up and occasionally sell off the extras as my collection is not really that big. Do they tong feed well? I may get them a dish.


Dubia is fine, they are very timid frogs so I doubt tongs would work. If you can get the roaches to stay in a dish then that solves any possible drowning issues.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

AGirlKeepsFrogs said:


> There is actually quite a bit of floor space and hiding places so your assumptions are incorrect. Less than half of the 40gallons of space is water and what after there is is no deeper than a half inch. I read that arturus love to have a little wading pool. I made sure the water was aerated with a waterfall and pump so there is none standing. As plants hate that even more than the frogs and would die faster. I also like that they are commununal. I did my research contrary to what you may think.
> 
> In fact there are actually TWO coco huts in there but the second one is hidden in the back behind some plants so you really have no idea if you think there isn't enough floor space for dart frogs...
> 
> Like I get you're a mod and big time dart frogger but this response reeks of gate keeping.


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