# Questions about rain water catching and water quality.



## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I have heard mixed things about rain water. One source says that it's the best water you can get for tropical plants. Other sources say that it depends on the health of the rain, and some places can get unhealthy acid rain that would be worse than regular water.

I've been using city tap water left out 24 hours to have its chlorine evaporate, but I suspect even this isn't really that healthy. If possible, I'd like to either:

1) *Make a setup to catch rain water.*

or

2) *Purchase a water purification device.*

Regarding the 1st option, I live in New Orleans, and I don't know what the status of our rain is. I also have limited resources outside: limited space to put a rain-catching tarp, and gutter ducts that are already built to go all the way to the ground (in other words, without the ability apparently to spill into a barrel).

Regarding the 2nd option, I don't mind spending a little money on water purification, as it would benefit my drinking water, too, but I have heard that rain water has a valuable nitrogen content that is conducive to plant growth. If rain water is much better than distilled water, I would prefer rain water.

Thanks for your consideration.


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

You shouldn’t be drinking reverse osmosis as your primary drinking water. 

As far as acid rain, you probably get rain often enough that it’s not a significant pH difference. Most tropical plants want a slightly acidic pH anyways. I’d collect the rain if I were you.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I'm with DPfarr on the first point. I don't believe that RO and distilled are the best option for you to drink long term. I think you are depriving yourself of some minerals that you would get from tap water. 

On the other hand, what is the rain water picking up from the atmosphere on its way down (especially in a big city)? I am asking a non-rhetorical question because I am not an atmospheric scientist. 

For me, I would separate out the goal of water for your tanks and water for you to drink. Tap is probably fine for you - maybe get spring water from the store if you aren't happy about the taste. For your vivs, I would do either RO or distilled, especially if you have misting nozzles. If you don't use RO/distilled for misting, you are likely to have trouble with mineral build-up on your nozzles. If you hand mist, disregard. I have used nothing but distilled for years and my plants grow just fine. The water will pick up nutrients when it lands on the surfaces inside your tank.

Mark


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

You're right to suspect that tap water still isn't a good idea for your critters even after leaving it out for the chlorine to evaporate. Your tap water could also contain chloramine, which does not evaporate, yet poses many of the same risks to frogs and fish as chlorine. [If you're interested, you can see a fact sheet here.]


I use tap water for my houseplants, and RODI for my tanks. 

With rainwater, I'd use it for houseplants, but not for tanks, personally, only due to the risk of microbial activity which I might not want to take place in my tanks. 

Another option is to use your tap water, first adding a dechlorinator the same as you would for a fish tank.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

All of my terraria are purely plants right now, so animal-related side-effects are not as big a priority.

With that in mind, is it still better to use RODI water than chlorine-evaporated tap water? Or are they practically the same?


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Deionized water and letting your water settle are not the same. Nowhere near. They could be practically the same if your municipal water has super low tds. That’s unlikely, but there are places with really low particulate.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kinstrome said:


> All of my terraria are purely plants right now, so animal-related side-effects are not as big a priority.
> 
> With that in mind, is it still better to use RODI water than chlorine-evaporated tap water? Or are they practically the same?


New Orleans does not use chlorine, they use chloramine. Chloramine does not evaporate in any reasonably short time span.

https://www.swbno.org/About/WaterPurificationProcess

The most foolproof way to ensure good viv water is to purchase an RO unit. A three stage unit with a chloramine prefilter in place of the more typical simple carbon block would likely be sufficient for New Orleans water (which is probably low-ish in TDS and organic contaminants). Long term cost per gallon of product water is literally pennies.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

How difficult is a 3-stage RO filter to set up? I may not have the sink space for it.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

They're simple to set up -- just push-fit hoses to connect the housings.

Coming up with a functional reservoir is more challenging. I run mine into a 29g glass tank, and use a shut-off float valve so it doesn't overflow. There are 'under sink' RO units that have a pressure tank, but I've not used them. Here are some, and this vendor offers a chloramine prefilter upgrade:

https://airwaterice.com/drinking-water-system.html


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## MKF (Sep 30, 2017)

I'm letting my new tank grow out right now and I'm using distilled water. Some people say to add back in minerals with R/O Right but I've also read it's unnecessary. A lot of people keep their frogs with distilled, R/O, and RODI from what I've read. If you can't fit an R/O unit in, a distilled water countertop unit would probably work better.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

MKF said:


> Some people say to add back in minerals with R/O Right but I've also read it's unnecessary.


If you want to remineralize (that would be a very small subset of RO users, and none of them would be misting frog vivs), Kent's RO Right is a poor choice for any plant or animal appications. RO Right is mostly chlorides, so it dissolves easily and people buy it. 

The minerals in real fresh water are mostly sulfates; sulfates dissolve fairly poorly, so sulfate-based RO remineralizers (such as Seachem's Equilibrium) are a bit of a pain to use but yield a much better final water for exposing to animals.

The only reason for purifying water via RO and then adding back minerals would be if you wanted to remove only some sort of dissolved toxins (atrazine? I don't know) or nutrients (aquarium folks might want to remove nitrate and phosphate) and wanted to end up with the same TDS as the source water. Froggers generally want to keep out the TDS, since that's what causes water spotting on the glass. Also, most dart frog tads (especially _Ranitomeya_) have evolved to live in very low TDS water.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Socratic Monologue said:


> They're simple to set up -- just push-fit hoses to connect the housings.
> 
> Coming up with a functional reservoir is more challenging. I run mine into a 29g glass tank, and use a shut-off float valve so it doesn't overflow. There are 'under sink' RO units that have a pressure tank, but I've not used them. Here are some, and this vendor offers a chloramine prefilter upgrade:
> 
> https://airwaterice.com/drinking-water-system.html


Thank you for the information. It is a rather complicated-looking machine, and the many options and blocks of text are... daunting. I'll probably buy the least expensive option(s) that meet the criteria you laid out.

I wanted to make sure I understood correctly, too, that this is a water system that operates within the normal water faucet, and not as some separate device like a countertop water distiller? I was confused, as you mentioned a "reservoir." If it's coming out of a faucet, I was just going to fill like a watering can with it


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I've not used the 'under sink' models, but I do think I understand how they work. 

They have a pressure tank that stores the filtered water. That feeds a faucet (click on the 'faucet options' button on the seller's page) that is typically installed in a countertop through a hole (either one you drill or you could hijack an existing hole that houses a hose sprayer or soap dispenser). I believe that there are faucets that simply sit on your countertop (no drilling required) but I don't have a link to them. I don't believe that there is any way to feed the RO water through your already existing faucet.

A more 'hobbyist grade' (my made up term) RO unit simply dribbles water out -- usually 50 gallons a day. This has to be collected -- in a fish tank, trash can, etc. People scoop out of that reservoir or put a valve/spigot on it.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I see. I don't think I have enough room under either sink in my house to house even a gallon's size of container, nor do I have the ability to drill through my sink, from the look of it.

Is the "hobbyist grade" RO unit something that could basically just be hooked up to a water source --- like an outdoor hose --- and RO-ize that water into the desired water? That's really what I was hoping for: something that acts as a middleman without interfering with the process. An example that comes to mind is a silencer on a gun, which adds something without interfering with the process.


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## Tanks (Jan 14, 2019)

I’ve been using the “Aquatic life RO buddie” for a few months now. I fill up a five gallon bucket once a week for water changes and a couple gallon jugs for misting water and fog. It’s hooked up above the work sink in my basement but can easily be taken down and stored away. Works great and is affordable 🙂


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kinstrome said:


> Is the "hobbyist grade" RO unit something that could basically just be hooked up to a water source --- like an outdoor hose --- and RO-ize that water into the desired water?


Yes, but keep in mind that the RO systems take time to filter water; 50gpd is only 2 gallons an hour.



Tanks said:


> I’ve been using the “Aquatic life RO buddie” for a few months now. I fill up a five gallon bucket once a week for water changes and a couple gallon jugs for misting water and fog. It’s hooked up above the work sink in my basement but can easily be taken down and stored away. Works great and is affordable 🙂


Yes, these 'compact' systems are nice for what they are. Filter changes are more pricey though, since they don't accept standard 10 inch replacement prefilters, and chloramine will trash these pretty quickly (been there, done that. I used to live in Minneapolis, where treating tap water was challenging because of high phosphates and seasonally crazy high chloramine levels).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Kinstrome, do you have any reason not to simply treat your tap water to remove chloramine (with e.g. Seachem Prime), and use it? You said originally that you were using (what turns out to be) untreated tap water.

I don't want to convince you to get deeper into this than you need, or want, to.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Haha, after post 16 I did a little research and realized that seachem prime removes chloramine. I had just bought the "buddy" filter (which I will just send back) and learned that it didn't remove chloramine. But I ordered seachem prime with it, too. I should have gotten the big hug, but I got a little one.


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## davelin315 (Oct 31, 2017)

I would get a.local water report if you can find one on what is in your rainwater. Pollutants in the air will be present in your rainwater so it might not be as usable as say rainwater from the Pacific Northwest.

RO water, by the way, should be ok to drink as it does not reduce the TDS all the way to zero unless you have really clean water to start with. RODI is not good to drink because it is 0 TDS because of the deionization process. DI alone will also reduce your TDS to zero but it is expensive unless you regenerate which requires either separate cation and anion chambers or separation and prior to regeneration (one uses a lye and the other uses an acid to regenerate).

By the way, I saw somewhere above replacing the carbon block with a chloramine block but I would do both, add GAC and the carbon stage as the cleaner the water is prior to hitting the membrane the longer it lasts. You could also do some carbon filtration of rain water to remove some of the impurities as this does not require pressure.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

davelin315 said:


> RO water, by the way, should be ok to drink


The World Health Organization disagrees:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tschap12.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2G2lROo4FvFXNemBET2oZy


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Coming up with a functional reservoir is more challenging. I run mine into a 29g glass tank, and use a shut-off float valve so it doesn't overflow.


I also have a 3-stage (sediment, charcoal, RO membrane) RO Buddy. I just hook it up to a sink in my laundry room (which has a floor drain), and fill a 5-gal bucket. I just set an alarm; the RO Buddy with new filters takes about 10 mins / gal produced. If I don't hear the alarm I waste water down the floor drain but it's not the end of the world. 

I switch filters every 4-5 months, which costs about $20 a full switch-out because I buy in multi-packs. In my case I have to make about a bucket and a half of water every week; that's what my plants & substrates all breathe out. Buying and especially carrying that much water from the store every week *would suck*.

My reservoirs are a pair of 10-g glass aquariums that each got drilled & fitted with a MistKing bulkhead, which are each connected to a MK pump & timer & a bunch of mister heads. I just fill the aquariums by pouring from my bucket. Each aquarium has a sheet of glass I lay over the top to prevent evaporative loss. They take up very little space on a shelf underneath a bunch of vivs; the whole array of reservoirs & vivs is on a couple of DIY wheeled racks or carts.

It's a simple system, and it works great. My city just uses chlorine, however. This is a desert so it doesn't rain much. When it does - yuck. I'd never seen the phenomenon of "mud-rain" before moving here. Yes, it literally rains mud, there's so much dust in the air from the pre-rain wind. Here you wash the car _after_ it rains. Funny huh? I sort of ache for a place that rains enough, and where the rain is good enough to drink.

Good luck OP!


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## davelin315 (Oct 31, 2017)

Socratic Monologue said:


> The World Health Organization disagrees:
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...tschap12.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2G2lROo4FvFXNemBET2oZy


As I mentioned, it depends on your initial water quality (you cut off half of the sentence which puts it into context). My tap water has a TDS of around 200 and post RO membrane it typically drops to around 40. The DI is what strips it bare to 0 TDS water which is not healthy to drink (hence my statement that it is not good to drink RODI but the RO might be OK to drink).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

From the WHO publication:

"In the late 1970’s, the WHO also commissioned a study to provide background information for issuing guidelines for desalinated water. That study was conducted by a team of researchers of the A.N. Sysin Institute of General and Public Hygiene and USSR Academy of Medical Sciences under the direction of Professor Sidorenko and Dr. Rakhmanin. The final report, published in 1980 as an internal working document (3), concluded that “not only does completely demineralised water (distillate) have unsatisfactory organoleptic properities, but it also has a definite adverse influence on the animal and human organism”. After evaluating the available health, organoleptic, and other information, the team recommended that demineralised water contain 1.) a minimum level for dissolved salts (100 mg/L), bicarbonate ion (30 mg/L), and calcium (30 mg/L); 2.) an optimum level for total dissolved salts (250-500 mg/L for chloride-sulfate water and 250-500 mg/L for bicarbonate water); 3.) a maximum level for alkalinity (6.5 meq/l), sodium (200 mg/L), boron (0.5 mg/L), and bromine (0.01 mg/L)."

"Experiments in animals, primarily rats, for up to one-year periods have repeatedly shown that the intake of distilled water or water with TDS ≤ 75 mg/L leads to: 1.) increased water intake, diuresis, extracellular fluid volume, and serum concentrations of sodium (Na) and chloride (Cl) ions and their increased elimination from the body, resulting in an overall negative balance.., and 2.) lower volumes of red cells and some other hematocrit changes"

"Results of experiments in human volunteers evaluated by researchers for the WHO report (3) are in agreement with those in animal experiments and suggest the basic mechanism of the effects of water low in TDS (e.g. < 100 mg/L) on water and mineral homeostasis. Low-mineral water markedly: 1.) increased diuresis (almost by 20%, on average), body water volume, and serum sodium concentrations, 2.) decreased serum potassium concentration, and 3.) increased the elimination of sodium, potassium, chloride, calcium and magnesium ions from the body"

So, no, RO water, even at 40ppm (BTW, an 80% rejection rate is far below typical; Filmtec 50gpd is ~98%)) might *not* be ok to drink. As a matter of empirically documented fact, it is deleterious to human health.



davelin315 said:


> As I mentioned, it depends on your initial water quality (you cut off half of the sentence which puts it into context). My tap water has a TDS of around 200 and post RO membrane it typically drops to around 40. The DI is what strips it bare to 0 TDS water which is not healthy to drink (hence my statement that it is not good to drink RODI but the RO might be OK to drink).


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## davelin315 (Oct 31, 2017)

That is fine, but what membrane operates at peak efficiency? I would say few if any, I have never had perfect conditions with any membrane.

Just as an FYI, that finding from the WHO has plenty of people that agree with it and plenty who do not. While pure water can act as a solvent it is unlikely to cause any issues for most people.

I am going to walk away from this now as I think that we are two people with different opinions but mine was never that RODI water is safe to drink, it was that some RO could be fine which is not the same thing as you have been arguing here.



Socratic Monologue said:


> From the WHO publication:
> 
> "In the late 1970’s, the WHO also commissioned a study to provide background information for issuing guidelines for desalinated water. That study was conducted by a team of researchers of the A.N. Sysin Institute of General and Public Hygiene and USSR Academy of Medical Sciences under the direction of Professor Sidorenko and Dr. Rakhmanin. The final report, published in 1980 as an internal working document (3), concluded that “not only does completely demineralised water (distillate) have unsatisfactory organoleptic properities, but it also has a definite adverse influence on the animal and human organism”. After evaluating the available health, organoleptic, and other information, the team recommended that demineralised water contain 1.) a minimum level for dissolved salts (100 mg/L), bicarbonate ion (30 mg/L), and calcium (30 mg/L); 2.) an optimum level for total dissolved salts (250-500 mg/L for chloride-sulfate water and 250-500 mg/L for bicarbonate water); 3.) a maximum level for alkalinity (6.5 meq/l), sodium (200 mg/L), boron (0.5 mg/L), and bromine (0.01 mg/L)."
> 
> ...


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

This should be helpful if the OP caught it in the back-and-forth:



> You could also do some carbon filtration of rain water to remove some of the impurities as this does not require pressure.


_Personally_, I wouldn't drink - or compel other beings to drink - RO water or any other water that might be safe to drink, sometimes, but that could definitely be harmful under certain uncertain circumstances. I've suffered the effects of yucky stuff in water; I don't care to suffer the effects of essential stuff lacking from water.

Good luck OP


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Although I am grateful for all the information, I think the commentators have taken my comment about drinking RO water a little too far. I just threw that in there because it seemed like I needed another "pro" for the RO/DI column. I don't mind at all drinking my chloramine-ated city water; that's not a big concern for me. I really just wanted to know what was best for the plants (and not animals).

I got my Seachem Prime in a day or two ago, so I'll start using that once I actually read what the dosage is for such-and-such amount of water.


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## SoloSK71 (Dec 25, 2018)

Just to provide yet another take on it, I have a full up RO/DI system to bring TDS down to 0 since I have marine aquariums. I also have FW aquariums and now vivariums.

What I ended up doing was basically taking three streams off the system. The first one is just after the chlorine/chloramine, GAC and sedimentation filter and is used for drinking and cooking water. Another benefit to this is that this stream is also almost at tap flow so nice an quick for large pots.

The second stream comes off after the RO filter and is used for plants and the FW aquariums. This goes into a 45G barrel.

The last stream is after the DI chambers and is 0 TDS for the marine aquarium. This goes into 2 - 45G barrels.

I also buy distilled water in 5G jugs for the misting system as I do not want to draw down the DI to make small batches of water.

Finally the waste water goes out into the garden in summer for watering plants.

I do not drink the pure RO or DI water because, as Socratic said there are some indications that long term use can be harmful. However, the more I hear about places like Flint, as well as studies coming out about school water are pushing me more and more to switch to remineralized RO water.

Solo


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

That reminds me, what do users here recommend as a large water storage container (40+ gallons / 150+ liters) ? I'd prefer something that I can dispense water from once it's inside.

I can't really use Seachem Prime in a 5-gallon Lowe's bucket, because it requires so little of the Prime (something like one-tenth of 1mL) that I'd be wasting it greatly.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I have no recommendations on storage, but you should be able to make up a dilute solution of Prime to get the dose in a convenient range (e.g., mix 1 part Prime to 9 parts RO, then dose 1ml of your solution if the dosage of Prime concentrate is 0.1ml).

Or dose the straight Prime with a 1ml syringe -- 0.1ml is pretty easy to measure.


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## SoloSK71 (Dec 25, 2018)

Kinstrome said:


> That reminds me, what do users here recommend as a large water storage container (40+ gallons / 150+ liters) ? I'd prefer something that I can dispense water from once it's inside.
> 
> I can't really use Seachem Prime in a 5-gallon Lowe's bucket, because it requires so little of the Prime (something like one-tenth of 1mL) that I'd be wasting it greatly.


I purchased some used food grade 55G plastic barrels. Like these.

Solo


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you for the suggestions, fellows.

In characteristic style, though, I made a hasty purchase, although this purchase may turn out to be pretty useful. It's a collapsible 50-gallon barrel, and it was surprisingly inexpensive, only ~$42.

I could dilute it with a syringe, but to do that a bunch of times for only 5 gallons of water would be pretty tiring. I'd rather just do it for a 50-gallon barrel.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm curious if folks here wonder about the long-term material safety of a collapsible water barrel. Those food-grade thick HDPE jobbies that Solo linked? No issues, looks like a credible solution to me. But...I don't think I'd drink water that had sat for weeks in a floppy "barrel" (bag, really) made of...what? I'm imagining the taste and wondering what produced it...blech. Poor frogs...

It seems like those things are mostly made for gardening & storing rainwater. Do you guys think (or better, know if) they are fish safe / food grade?

Just an honest question. Not casting any aspersions.

Oh yeah - the original question. I'm only making maybe 8 gallons a week, but I just keep my water in a pair of little aquariums, with bulkheads & quarter-turn valves so I can disconnect if need be. Conceptually, I see no difference between that and a big DIY glass & silicone cement cube that you drill & plumb. Or, just buy a big cheap aquarium. Or skip all that and make a wooden box & fiberglass it with polyester, or food-grade epoxy, resin. The latter approach is going to take a bit of work, but...what you end up with doesn't look like a big ugly white plastic barrel either, ha ha. It also resembles the process some folks use for making large vivs, so...you could build your reservoir and also a large viv simultaneously, and save some set-up & waiting-between-coats time. If you "need" a large viv, that is (_who doesn't?_)

Good luck!


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