# Unexpected Varadero Death.. Need Help



## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

So today I was checking my Varadero froglets and I found one of them dead and black/brown. 
He was only about 3 months oow and seemed to be eating fine. He was a tad skinnier than his tank mate and had extra toes. (He was unsexed.) I started off feeding them FF and springtails but have recently been feeding them only springtails about every other day. (Springtails were established in the tank so I didn't feel the need to put them in every day.) They live in a 6"x5"x4" container and I mist them about every other day with water that has been left out for at least 48 hoursthat is treated with AmQuel dechlorinator. One of the live oak leaves in the tank looked like it had dark speckles on it like it was molding. The tank mate is nice and chubby but it seems like his colors aren't as vibrant as they were (it may just be in my head).
Does anything stand out that I was doing wrong?
I'm cleaning out the tank and sanitizing new leaves. I'll add a sphagnum moss floor (although I'm tempted to use paper towel to be extra safe.)
These two are my first frogs so I'm pretty upset about losing one of them. I was just about to start building them a 10 gallon planted terrarium. 
Any suggestions?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

He had extra toes? Is it possible that there was more wrong with him that wasn't apparent from the outside?


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

frogface said:


> He had extra toes? Is it possible that there was more wrong with him that wasn't apparent from the outside?


His siblings and tank made also have extra toes. 
Here is a picture of him and his tank mate. The one who passed is on the left, the tank mate is on the right. If you look closely you can see his extra toes.









Here is a picture of just him









Here you can see his extra toes on his back feet









Here is a more recent picture of the two with a size comparison taken a few weeks ago. The first three pictures were taken about a week after I received them.


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## scusemelittleoldlady (Feb 24, 2012)

Actually, frogs have 4 toes on their front feet and 5 toes on their back feet, so looks like he has the right amount of toes!


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I have been having problems with spaghnum moss growing a mold that killed frogs. You might try using ABG mix and put some oak leaves over that and put springtails as well.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

scusemelittleoldlady said:


> Actually, frogs have 4 toes on their front feet and 5 toes on their back feet, so looks like he has the right amount of toes!


Well... I feel dumb now. Thanks for correcting me on that. lol



billschwinn said:


> I have been having problems with spaghnum moss growing a mold that killed frogs. You might try using ABG mix and put some oak leaves over that and put springtails as well.


Do you think it could be a specific brand of sphagnum moss? I make my own ABG mix, should I just leave the sphagnum out? Are paper towels a good alternative?
Right after I clean the container and add new shagnum moss it grows a weblike white mold on top of the shagnum that goes away once springtails are added. What does the mold look like? I did not notice any other mold growing on the moss. Are there any signs of weight loss before the frogs die from that mold?
(Sorry for the flood of questions.)


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You mention that you were feeding fruit flies and springtails but that you have switched to just springtails. If you switched to just springtails, the first thing that comes to mind is that you may not be aware of the importance of calcium and vitamin dusting powder. 
1) Have you been dusting your fruit flies?
2) How long has it been since you quit giving them any calcium and vitamins?
3) Are you using a quality supplement like Repashy Calcium Plus or what brand(s) are you using?
4) How old are your supplements?
5) How are you storing your supplements?
6) How often are you dusting?

Another thought with the increasing temperatures lately would be this. What is the daytime high temp in your viv/growout?


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

In addition to the lack of supplements being offered to the frogs...I have a feeling these two VERY young frogs were subjected to quite a bit of stress. I may be wrong and apologize if I am, but it is worth noting a couple things. First, in the picture of the two there are zero "comfort zones" or places for the frogs to hide if and when they feel threatened. Second, the way you described the "cleaning" of their tiny container gives me a feeling that these two froglets are constantly being moved from temp container to temp container, this too can increase stress levels and have negative effects on young and old frogs alike. Tanks, even temp containers should not need to be cleaned in any sort of way when they are less than two months old......just a few thoughts I had about this situation. I hope it may help in some way, and another thing...don't get too discouraged. We have all lost frogs for one reason or another, sometimes never knowing exactly why. You have made the right choice by trying to figure out why so good for you. Learn all you can from it and move forward, good luck.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Yea don't get discouraged, there are a number of reasons why it could of passed. Everyone has lost a Frog out the blue, but no one wants to come out and say it. Thumbs are sensative, I lost a Varadero froglet too a few months ago.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> You mention that you were feeding fruit flies and springtails but that you have switched to just springtails. If you switched to just springtails, the first thing that comes to mind is that you may not be aware of the importance of calcium and vitamin dusting powder.
> 1) Have you been dusting your fruit flies?
> 2) How long has it been since you quit giving them any calcium and vitamins?
> 3) Are you using a quality supplement like Repashy Calcium Plus or what brand(s) are you using?
> ...


1. I was dusting my FF just about everytime I offered them (I only missed dusting them maybe once or twice.)
2. It's probably been about 5 weeks since they've had FF with supplements
3. I use Zoo Med's Repti Calcium, I also have reptivite with D3 but only used it once or twice.
4. My supplements are almost 2 years old.
5. They are stored at room temp (74-76 degrees)
6. I don't dust the springtails since I didn't know I had to and they are so small. (But I will start dusting them before I put them in the container.)

The highest I've ever recorded the rack that they are on is 76 during the day but it is usually around 74 and their container is probably a bit cooler, maybe 72, because of the moisture.

I'm new to frogs and I'll be quick to change anything I did wrong and I am truly open to suggestions. I can go today to pick up more FF and I can order Repashy calcium plus if my supplements are not good enough.



randommind said:


> In addition to the lack of supplements being offered to the frogs...I have a feeling these two VERY young frogs were subjected to quite a bit of stress. I may be wrong and apologize if I am, but it is worth noting a couple things. First, in the picture of the two there are zero "comfort zones" or places for the frogs to hide if and when they feel threatened. Second, the way you described the "cleaning" of their tiny container gives me a feeling that these two froglets are constantly being moved from temp container to temp container, this too can increase stress levels and have negative effects on young and old frogs alike. Tanks, even temp containers should not need to be cleaned in any sort of way when they are less than two months old......just a few thoughts I had about this situation. I hope it may help in some way, and another thing...don't get too discouraged. We have all lost frogs for one reason or another, sometimes never knowing exactly why. You have made the right choice by trying to figure out why so good for you. Learn all you can from it and move forward, good luck.


When I bought the frogs I was told to clean the tank often and I have been cleaning it about every 3rd week. When I clean the tank, I move the frogs (without handling them) to a delicup with moist paper towel. So they are in that cup between 30 mins to 2 hours depending on how busy I am or whatever else I may be doing. They do have hiding spots beacsue I use leaf litter but in those pictures I took it out because I was about to clean the container. Is there any hide I could make or buy? 

Also, I was planning on planting a 10 gallon for them. Should I still build it for for the one lone frog I have left? Do they do fine housed individually? Is the container too small for him?

One more thing, does the sphagnum moss in the picture look too wet? I'm trying to keep it moist from now on instead of soggy.

Thank you everyone for your help. It is _greatly _appreciated.


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## CAPTAIN RON (Mar 29, 2010)

Also at 3 months old-in that size container-not a good idea! I would not use the dechlorinator (amquel) in the water that you are using for spraying either-i would use ro or bottled springwater-dechlor is usually just sodium thiosulphate mixed with water-but some of these tap water conditioners add other stuff to the product that may not be good ! If you are leaving out water in an opened container for at least 24 hours the chlorine has disapated anyway-adding an airstone to aeriate the frogs water will help also to remove the chlorine. I would get remaining frog in to a proper environment asap! Good Luck.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Loui1203 said:


> 1. I was dusting my FF just about everytime I offered them (I only missed dusting them maybe once or twice.)
> 2. It's probably been about 5 weeks since they've had FF with supplements
> 3. I use Zoo Med's Repti Calcium, I also have reptivite with D3 but only used it once or twice.
> 4. My supplements are almost 2 years old.
> ...


4. Usually people replace their supplements every 6 months. 
6. You don't dust springtails, hence the importance to use dusted fruit flies as the staple food for the frogs.

I like the attitude of changing whatever you are doing wrong. We learn with our mistakes (if we can't avoid them). 

Read more about keeping these tiny frogs. I would recommend 



. You will learn how to setup a vivarium that is much easier to maintain (there is no need to clean every 3 weeks. That may have added to the frogs' stress). After researching more (book, this forum), go ahead and setup a 10 gallon tank for the remaining frog. That is plenty of space for it.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

I am sure Doug or somebody will ring back in and provide some good links for you in regards to the supplement issue you will need to address...



Loui1203 said:


> When I bought the frogs I was told to clean the tank often and I have been cleaning it about every 3rd week. When I clean the tank, I move the frogs (without handling them) to a delicup with moist paper towel. So they are in that cup between 30 mins to 2 hours depending on how busy I am or whatever else I may be doing.


I do not wish to contradict a more experienced frogger's suggestion, but I do not think this is such a great idea. I have kept many young frogs in temp containers for 3+ months without cleaning and have had ZERO issues. With that said, my temp containers are a bit bigger than yours (15x10x9). My advise would be to look into a bit larger of a sterilite tub and forego the cleaning untill you move the frog(s) into their permanent home.




Loui1203 said:


> They do have hiding spots beacsue I use leaf litter but in those pictures I took it out because I was about to clean the container. Is there any hide I could make or buy?


Along with the leaf litter, I usually stick a few film cans on the side of the container and a few in the leaf litter, as well as a pothos clipping or two. This will both add hides and give the frogs something to climb around on. 



Loui1203 said:


> Also, I was planning on planting a 10 gallon for them. Should I still build it for for the one lone frog I have left? Do they do fine housed individually? Is the container too small for him?


Absolutely!!! Vivs are fun and rewarding to build and your frog will definitely appreciate you for the extra space and more natural environment. (S)he will do fine housed individually, but I am sure you will at some point want to find a buddy for him or her later on down the road. 



Loui1203 said:


> One more thing, does the sphagnum moss in the picture look too wet? I'm trying to keep it moist from now on instead of soggy.


It does not _look too wet, but you definitely just want it moist and not "soggy". Also, it does look like the moss that Bill mentioned above that a few people have had issues with. The "bad" moss comes in a bag from H.D. with a blue/black/yellow label...look for the bag with pink and orchids on it._


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Not the best starter Dart. Your supps are too old toss them. You need to set up a vertical vivarium, Thumbs don't play the floor often. You need to seed your viv or set up with springs and let them establish, they aren't ment to be feed like FF's. You are going to have to do some heavy research. When you set up a Viv, there isn't any cleaning, just cutting plants and draining out water if you don't have a hole cut into your tank. You might just get alge on the glass here and there which you can spray with water and wipe off with a paper towel. What were you using to clean out the enclousure?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Toss your old suppliments. Replace them every 6 months. Repashy Calcium Plus is a very well formulated, all in one, supplement.
Storage: 


Pumilo said:


> Exactly how Kris (frogface) said to do it. Leave most in an AIRTIGHT and dark container. Pull out just enough for 2 or 3 weeks worth of use. Do not allow the refrigerated portion to repeatedly warm and cool. It should STAY in the fridge. It should NOT be frozen. This will keep it freshest and at it's most potent.
> All supplements are NOT created equal. There are some that are best used as a nice "toilet dust" before flushing. I use Repashy Calcium Plus.





Pumilo said:


> Changing them out every 6 months is recommended.


Don't bother dusting springtails. Properly dusted flies are crucial to proper development.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

randommind said:


> It does not _look too wet, but you definitely just want it moist and not "soggy". Also, it does look like the moss that Bill mentioned above that a few people have had issues with. The "bad" moss comes in a bag from H.D. with a blue/black/yellow label...look for the bag with pink and orchids on it._


_

Shoot... I use that bag. I hate to move the frog twice in 24 hours but I'm going to move her to a temperary container that is 7.2 Qts. I'll put papertowel on the bottom with some leaf litter and a few pothos clippings. I think I have a film canister that I could put on the side. The tub was used for geckos so it one side has screen that FF can fit through so I think I'll glue on some coffee filter to keep up the humidity and keep in the FF. This will be temperary while I convert and plant my 10 gallon. Although I may end up buying a 12x12x18 Exo terra or zoo med tank. 
Actually I have a 24 Qt tub I can put her in instead of the 7.2. Does that sound better?
In the meantime, I'll run out to the reptile store to get FF, repashy calcium plus (if I can find it) and new shagnum. Am I missing anything?



Pumilo said:



Toss your old suppliments. Replace them every 6 months. Repashy Calcium Plus is a very well formulated, all in one, supplement.
Storage: 




Don't bother dusting springtails. Properly dusted flies are crucial to proper development.

Click to expand...

Throwing them out now! Thank you for the storage tips I will do that.



B-NICE said:



What were you using to clean out the enclousure?

Click to expand...

Sometimes I use dish soap when it needs to be super clean (I rinse it extremely well and use hot water.) or if I don't think it is too dirty I use this natural soap that is very mild._


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

Loui1203 said:


> Shoot... I use that bag. I hate to move the frog twice in 24 hours but I'm going to move her to a temperary container that is 7.2 Qts. I'll put papertowel on the bottom with some leaf litter and a few pothos clippings. I think I have a film canister that I could put on the side. The tub was used for geckos so it one side has screen that FF can fit through so I think I'll glue on some coffee filter to keep up the humidity and keep in the FF. This will be temperary while I convert and plant my 10 gallon. Although I may end up buying a 12x12x18 Exo terra or zoo med tank.
> Actually I have a 24 Qt tub I can put her in instead of the 7.2. Does that sound better?
> In the meantime, I'll run out to the reptile store to get FF, repashy calcium plus (if I can find it) and new shagnum. Am I missing anything?


Don't use GLUE, try to stay chemical free. Use some plastic Wrap or the cover of the container, make sure it have a vent, wholes, etc.....


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## 105Dart (Mar 13, 2011)

I like how everyone is not being negative to this person, but trying to help out and encourage the best way to care for their frogs.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

105Dart said:


> I like how everyone is not being negative to this person, but trying to help out and encourage the best way to care for their frogs.


Don't worry the dude ppl will be here soon. 

To the OP, you shouldn't be using soap to clean your enclousre. It may be mild to a human, but not a Frog which breathes through its skin.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

This community usually responds according to the person's OP. This person showed she is willing to do whatever it takes to save the remaining frog. There is no reason to give her a hard time. Usually arrogant or neglectful people are the ones who get the negative posts.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

B-NICE said:


> Don't worry the dude ppl will be here soon.
> 
> To the OP, you shouldn't be using soap to clean your enclousre. It may be mild to a human, but not a Frog which breathes through its skin.


What should I use?
I just cleaned the larger container with the mild natural soap. So does that mean I shouldn't put the frog in it yet?

Also, I taped coffee filter over the screen of the larger container so the FFs can't escape.



JPccusa said:


> This community usually responds according to the person's OP. This person showed she is willing to do whatever it takes to save the remaining frog. There is no reason to give her a hard time. Usually arrogant or neglectful people are the ones who get the negative posts.


Thanks for this. 

I'm new to keeping frogs but I've been keeping crested geckos for a while. The worst thing in the gecko community is people who don't listen to advice on how to improve their care because they insist they know best. (For example, people insist on feeding baby food to their geckos since that's what the pet store told them to do, when they should be feeding Repashy's CGD.) Personally, I hold my animal's health and well being above my pride and I trust this forum's advice on proper frog care and will not hesitate to change something I am doing wrong according to experienced frog owners. So while I did do extensive research on care before I decided to get my frogs, I realize some things change over time, answers change depending on who you ask and care might change with the species. 
I thank you all for your help, kindness and understanding.

Another question, from what I found from google, I attach suction cups to the film canisters. Would it be bad to use hot glue? If so, I can buy some aquarium safe silicon (which I plan on buying anyway for my 10 gallon conversion.)


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

Just drill a hole in the film canister and push the small end of the suction cup into the hole, you can buy the suction cups at Home Depot or Lowes, they will have a hook on the end of them that you can remove.
I clean all of my containers and plants with bleach, for plants I use a 5% bleach solution stronger for containers esp. if they had prior occupants.
Just rinse the bleach of really well. If you buy sphagnum moss get the 100% New Zealand sphagnum in a pinch you can buy it at Petco or Petsmart.
Be sure to have plenty of leaf litter and pothos, like others mentioned.
Also, with new frogs I keep them in a quiet environment in a semi dark place plus leave them alone unless feeding. IME it cuts down on the stress.


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## mark c (Jun 17, 2010)

If you washed the enclosure with soap, don't trust that even a scalding hot water rinse will remove enough soap residue to be safe. Do a wipe-down with isopropyl alcohol, and use gloves to protect your hands.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

I'll wipe it down with alcohol, thanks!

I just got back from lowes and the pet store and I picked up Better-Gro Premium Grade organic orchid moss. It has a pink orchid and an orange orchid on the front. Is this suitable?

I also but melanoster FF and both reptile stores I went to were out of Repashy's Calcium plus so I got Repashy's Supercal LoD. Is the calcium good for my frog for the next 6 months or should I order the Calcium plus online and return the supercal LoD?


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

Here is the old container:









Here is the new one a 7.2 Qt. For the substrate I used the new moss, tree fern and orchid bark. (I'm out of charcoal and peat moss.)


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Temp tank looks good. Good work  



> I just got back from lowes and the pet store and I picked up Better-Gro Premium Grade organic orchid moss. It has a pink orchid and an orange orchid on the front. Is this suitable?


That's the right stuff.

I'm not familiar with that supplement so I'll let someone else advise.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The Repashy Supercal LoD is a low vitamin D formula. It is made for sensitive animals or animals that are getting moderate UVB radiation. Unless you have special UV lights and a special enclosure designed to let the UV in, you do not have any UVB. That makes this product a poor choice for most frog applications. Furthermore, it does not have the full vitamin mix in it so you would have to also supplement Repashy Supervite.
My advice would be to return it and get the Repashy Calcium Plus.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The "Better-Gro" brand that you got from Lowe's is a sphagnum moss that I have used often, with good results. In fact, it usually begins growing live sphagnum for me if given good lighting and misting.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

Loui1203 said:


> What should I use?


5-10% bleach solution is pretty standard for disinfecting stuff


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

I think my other frog is dying, is there anything I can do for him?
It must be from the mold from the bad H.D moss, I offered him dusted FF last night (about 8) but it doesn't look like he ate any. I really hope it wasn't from the stress of being moved about yesterday when I cleaned the container and put him in the upgraded tank. He was fine last night and this morning but just now I went to check on him and he was at the bottom on the moss and he looked a bit skinny and he was hardly moving. I misted the container just in case he was dehydrated since the moss wasn't soggy like it had been in the other container.


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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

Lots of springtails sometimes bring them back for awhile.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

He seems to be better once I misted him. Now he is on the wall of the tank and that seems like a good sign. I guess i have to really watch the humidity on the new container, I'll wet the moss more later tonight and throw in some springtails. I don't want to stress him out anymore than I have to. I'll also give him a bottle cap with some water in it just in case.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Now that you took all the necessary precautions and did all that needed to be done, stop hovering the (possibly stressed out) frog and keep reading more about good husbandry in this forum. 

Leaving the frog alone whenever possible (not even visual contact allowed!) will definitely help reduce any possible stress during its acclimation period.


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## Ivan M (Apr 11, 2012)

You have been getting great advice on here and you are doing a fantastic job with the changes, keep us updated as it looks your frog will be fine.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Loui1203 said:


> Well... I feel dumb now. Thanks for correcting me on that. lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have over the last year have had this mold problem pop up using several brands of spaghnum. It appears as a white webbing growing rapidly throughout the moss, it has a nasty sweet odor. some frogs if not caught in time died and some would lose weight.I do not use paper towels.


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## Loui1203 (Sep 29, 2011)

billschwinn said:


> I have over the last year have had this mold problem pop up using several brands of spaghnum. It appears as a white webbing growing rapidly throughout the moss, it has a nasty sweet odor. some frogs if not caught in time died and some would lose weight.I do not use paper towels.


Yep that's the mold I saw. It would disappear when the springtails were established. I asked someone in the hobby about it but he said it was fine but I guess I should've came to the forum. I would have but I didn't want to be the 1,000th person complaining of mold in their viv since I knew some kinds are normal.

I'm keeping a distant eye on my frog and she seems do be doing better and gaining back strength. I still don't have the calcium plus but it should be in stock this week at the local reptile store. She loves the film canister and I just found another so I'll add that in later today.

Again, thank you all so much for your help. I'll keep this thread updated with any changes.


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