# 5 legged Matecho...



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Well first time I've seen this...Ol lefty has 2 left feet.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> Well first time I've seen this...Ol lefty has 2 left feet.


 Wow. 
I saw a Lithobates pipiens behind my house that looked like that.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

That happens cuz of chemicals in the water. There's this thread talking about a six legged froglet. I'll dig that up later since I'm on my phone


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Actually there are several reasons this can happen.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

billschwinn said:


> Actually there are several reasons this can happen.





goof901 said:


> That happens cuz of chemicals in the water. There's this thread talking about a six legged froglet. I'll dig that up later since I'm on my phone


I don't know how it happend, but I do know that it's pretty freakin' cool.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ahem, actually Troy he has two right feet. Which means he can dance lol. I had a tad similar to that, had two right front legs. It was the first tad I ever morphed out, well almost morphed. I euthanized him as soon as I saw the extra leg. I'm not sure if it was caused by a supplement issue. It was the first tad from the first clutch I ever produced. Since then I have not had any deformed froglets. Pic is from Dec. 2010


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Rusty, ---Nooo, its his left legs and feet, but the extra left hangs on his right side...

Goof ---I don't know about chemicals in the water, I use small tackle boxes with lids, and morph out hundreds of froglets each year using the same method this is the first time Ive ever experienced this? So chemicals?? Id be interested in finding out what chemicals?? Also the other 5 that were in his box are in morph containers and look like some absolutely gorgeous Matecho. 

Bill---care to let me in on some information for what may have caused it? or is a very long list of things??


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

sorry should have been more clear, it might be chemicals. Hopefully Ed will help you out on this. here is the thread about a 6 legged frog
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/36792-6-legged-spider-frog.html


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Oh wow, is that leg really long? Just from the pics it looks like it's on the right.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks goof, I do like when Ed chimes in and helps, but lets all remember Im an artist lol and I'm just simply not smart enough to always understand what he's talking about haha

Rusty, its not really long but the area that it comes out of kind of puts in in a awkward position, so when its bent it kinda goes on the right side, and when its extended its almost right n the middle, best picture to see that its a left food is the one where its out of the water, look at feet in particular, you'll see that its 2 left legs and feet.

Also btw i believe this may be the only 5 legged matecho in the world  Im not sure what I'm gonna do with it tho? I have a feeling its not gonna make it because the extra leg will hinder its agility


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

billschwinn said:


> Actually there are several reasons this can happen.


 
Bill is correct, there are a number of scenarios which can cause this to happen.. For example, 

The limb buds are initially formed before hatching but delayed in growth until the hormonal triggers for metamorphis begin thier growth. Interruption or damage to the limb buds before metamorphosis can cause the formation of multiple limbs. This damage can come from parasites, improper cell division, mechanical injury, improper cell migration (or even incrediably rare genetic)...... 

Ed


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Ed said:


> Bill is correct, there are a number of scenarios which can cause this to happen.. For example,
> 
> The limb buds are initially formed before hatching but delayed in growth until the hormonal triggers for metamorphis begin thier growth. Interruption or damage to the limb buds before metamorphosis can cause the formation of multiple limbs. This damage can come from parasites, improper cell division, mechanical injury, improper cell migration (or even incrediably rare genetic)......
> 
> Ed


Thank you Ed. It could be as simple as bad luck. With it affecting one I would not lose sleep over this.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Well euthanize or give him a shot?? Whats your guys opinions??


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

If it hunts and feeds fine and is not obviouslty suffering, why kill it. I think I just posted this in another thread recently. 
I am starting to think extra legs are more commong then people think. It just is not talked about much by people that want to sell frogs. 
I have a good frog friend who told me he would not want to own a less then perfect frog. 
I like my frog friend, but do not share his senitment at all!

I have a lovely 5 legged frog at work, and is well cared for by my clients


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Yeah Obviously I would not sell it, I think Ill give it a shot, and if some kid wants it or something just give it away.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Humans carry recessive genes that cause children to be born with 6 fingers/toes instead of 5. I would probably explain the problem to genetics than to water, unless you get your water from Japan by the underwater reactor.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

any updates?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

still morphing. . . should be coming ootw in a few days


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeeperrs said:


> Humans carry recessive genes that cause children to be born with 6 fingers/toes instead of 5. I would probably explain the problem to genetics than to water, unless you get your water from Japan by the underwater reactor.


 
The genes for this typically are extremely rare compared to the multiple other potential causes of the issue.... Also if it was genetic (and not a spontaneous mutation) you would expect to see more offspring similarly afflicted (as occurs with people (multiple digits run in families...). 

Ed


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

Ed said:


> Bill is correct, there are a number of scenarios which can cause this to happen.. For example,
> 
> 
> 
> Ed


...maybe he is just well endowed


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Ed said:


> Bill is correct, there are a number of scenarios which can cause this to happen.. For example,
> 
> The limb buds are initially formed before hatching but delayed in growth until the hormonal triggers for metamorphis begin thier growth. Interruption or damage to the limb buds before metamorphosis can cause the formation of multiple limbs. This damage can come from parasites, improper cell division, mechanical injury, improper cell migration (or even incrediably rare genetic)......
> 
> Ed


Yeah, that's what I was gonna say...


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## kevinp (Feb 21, 2012)

if it survives the morphing, why not remove the extra limb ?


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

At the risk of going out on a limb here, I'd suggest you raise it up and see what happens because it already has a leg up on its siblings...


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

JimO said:


> At the risk of going out on a limb here, I'd suggest you raise it up and see what happens because it already has a leg up on its siblings...


haha ur punny. but i don't think it should be that much of an issue because it should be able to adapt.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kevinp said:


> if it survives the morphing, why not remove the extra limb ?


Unless the person who does it knows what they are doing that will be a significant trauma to the frog with all of the attendent risks (including the need for an anesthetic during the surgery). 

Ed


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## kevinp (Feb 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Unless the person who does it knows what they are doing that will be a significant trauma to the frog with all of the attendent risks (including the need for an anesthetic during the surgery).
> 
> Ed


would there be a chance of regeneration with it being an extra limb if done as it is now , in the morphig phase ?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kevinp said:


> would there be a chance of regeneration with it being an extra limb if done as it is now , in the morphig phase ?


Regeneration in frogs appears to be different than that of caudates so the chance of regenerating it are very small. While not a veterinarian, I personally wouldn't suggest amputating it during metamorphosis since there are changes occuring to the immune system and the metamorphs are already under extreme stress. 

Ed


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> The genes for this typically are extremely rare compared to the multiple other potential causes of the issue.... Also if it was genetic (and not a spontaneous mutation) you would expect to see more offspring similarly afflicted (as occurs with people (multiple digits run in families...).
> 
> Ed


Multiple digits are only hereditary if both parents have the same recessive gene. However, most humans do not mate with family making the pool of genes infinitely large and the likelihood of observing the recessive gene very small, even over several generations (yes, due to the captive breeding the frogs gene pool is much smaller). Plus, just because the parents both have the recessive trait does not mean that every child will exhibit a recessive trait, or even contain the recessive gene. Punett's Square at the most basic presentation would say that 25% of the offspring would display this. As a statistician, the 25% observance can only happen over infinity which indicates that we may never see it happen again despite the genetic link. As you are well aware, genes are much more complex than the simple diagram of Punett's square. Also, recessive genes typically have other deficiencies that prevent the organism from making it far enough for the phenotype to be observed again.

Many people report having 2 frogs with a problem such as SLS but the 3rd frog does not. If the environment was the "cause" we would have seen all 3 frogs with the same problem. So, is it the environment or did the genes fail the frog? I ask this because evolutionarily speaking every species works on a "goodness of fit" model. If the genes are not fit for the environment then the organism will not succeed. I just think it is silly to blame only the environment and not the genetics, unless all his frogs in the same water show the same problem. Since we are not running a DNA test we may never know...unless more 5 legged frogs grow from the same parents.

I agree that for us it is often a husbandry issue that results in the problems. I just can't rule out genetics on this one.

Good thing science doesn't live on case studies 

P.S. Ed knows I value his experience and comments. So, don't think I am saying he is wrong. I am just presenting my opinion.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

There is a thread discussing the largest tinc. I think yours will qualify because it's 5 feet!

I am so sorry, but I can't help myself. However, I am in therapy and getting injections.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeeperrs said:


> Many people report having 2 frogs with a problem such as SLS but the 3rd frog does not. If the environment was the "cause" we would have seen all 3 frogs with the same problem. So, is it the environment or did the genes fail the frog? I ask this because evolutionarily speaking every species works on a "goodness of fit" model. If the genes are not fit for the environment then the organism will not succeed. I just think it is silly to blame only the environment and not the genetics, unless all his frogs in the same water show the same problem. Since we are not running a DNA test we may never know...unless more 5 legged frogs grow from the same parents.
> 
> I agree that for us it is often a husbandry issue that results in the problems. I just can't rule out genetics on this one.
> 
> ...


The way I visualize the probability of actually reaching 25% incidence for a single gene recessive trait appear is that it functions as an asymptote over time.. 
However when we compare the chance that it is genetic versus enviromental, genetics are going to be the least probable (even though we are starting with a smaller gene pool) as other issues of inbreeding tend to appear long before we get to skeletal deformational recessive mutations. 

Husbandry and enviromental causes are going to be the greatest probability for this sort of issue since for one example, depending on nutritional resources eggs are not going to be provisioned equally during ovulation since one of the main triggers of ovulation is the amount of fat reserves (and circulating fat) to produce the eggs. It is also well documented that displacement of the spatial positioning of the limb bud cells causes multiple leg formation. (see for example How trematodes cause limb deformities in amphibians - Stopper - 2002 - Journal of Experimental Zoology - Wiley Online Library (not free access). Since we can have issues due to provisioning of the egg, disruption of the cell bud (which can be due to damage, chemicals (even disruption of signaling pathways by water pollution of retinol analogs (see http://blumberg.bio.uci.edu/reprints/frogs_PAC.pdf (free access). 

For those heavily interested in the entire technical process of metamorphosis in frogs, I suggest Amazon.com: Amphibian Metamorphosis: From Morphology to Molecular Biology (9780471244752): Yun-Bo Shi: Books is a good reference textbook. (yes I have a copy...). 

Ed


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> The way I visualize the probability of actually reaching 25% incidence for a single gene recessive trait appear is that it functions as an asymptote over time..
> However when we compare the chance that it is genetic versus enviromental, genetics are going to be the least probable (even though we are starting with a smaller gene pool) as other issues of inbreeding tend to appear long before we get to skeletal deformational recessive mutations.
> 
> Husbandry and enviromental causes are going to be the greatest probability for this sort of issue since for one example, depending on nutritional resources eggs are not going to be provisioned equally during ovulation since one of the main triggers of ovulation is the amount of fat reserves (and circulating fat) to produce the eggs. It is also well documented that displacement of the spatial positioning of the limb bud cells causes multiple leg formation. (see for example How trematodes cause limb deformities in amphibians - Stopper - 2002 - Journal of Experimental Zoology - Wiley Online Library (not free access). Since we can have issues due to provisioning of the egg, disruption of the cell bud (which can be due to damage, chemicals (even disruption of signaling pathways by water pollution of retinol analogs (see http://blumberg.bio.uci.edu/reprints/frogs_PAC.pdf (free access).
> ...


That is some interesting stuff and why I like you so much. I am having my university send me the "not free" one, so I haven't read that one yet. I would like to point out a question from the retinoids article. First, one of the main criteria to raising frogs in captivity is the fact we use RO/DI water or something similar (perfectly pure water). The study illustrates that the concentration of the retinoids has to be at a specific level during a "critical period". How are you thinking the high doses of retinoids are getting into the water that he is using?

This discussion is very similar to how we develop our external sex characteristics during the germinal/embryonic period. The "environment" can make a boy have genitals equal in appearance to a girl and visa versa. Majority of the time this is the result of a genetic problem (but we have some researchers saying it is also an environmental problem), such as the receptor sites are not being activated by the androgens produced by the gonads (when boys have genitals like girls, called androgen insensitivity) or the adrenal glands are producing too much testosterone (making a girls genitals look like a boys, called Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia). Due to this line of research we say it is genetic. However, if a mother starts to have issues producing too much of one hormone or another during this critical period we can see the same deformity. By this I mean, we can artificially place testosterone into the womb and make a genetically perfect girl develop male genitals. So, in this example it is the environment is what created what we traditionally think of being a genetic disorder. Why? The reason is that it is hormones during a critical period (matter of a few days during our development) that causes our genitals to develop, not a "specific gene". However, it is our genes that are to produce proteins that then create a properly functioning system. This takes us back to identifying it as a genetic disorder. Whew! 

So, that is my preface to say that just because we know one chemical that increases the risks of multiple limbs doesn't rule everything out. So, if he is using a quality water source I would think that the risk would go down. Just my thoughts.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeeperrs said:


> That is some interesting stuff and why I like you so much. I am having my university send me the "not free" one, so I haven't read that one yet. I would like to point out a question from the retinoids article. First, one of the main criteria to raising frogs in captivity is the fact we use RO/DI water or something similar (perfectly pure water). The study illustrates that the concentration of the retinoids has to be at a specific level during a "critical period". How are you thinking the high doses of retinoids are getting into the water that he is using?


I didn't see in the thread that he is working with RO/DI to make the tadpole water. So that question needs ot be asked. I went with Retinols as a possible causative factor since I've spent the last few years tracking down information on it (and what it can do). If you have a sufficiently high level of retinoids you can actually reprogram tissue differentiation (for example in Amphibian Metamorphosis (Amazon.com: Amphibian Metamorphosis: From Morphology to Molecular Biology (9780471244752): Yun-Bo Shi: Books ), there is a study where they used amputated tails from tadpoles and incubated them with a high level of retinoids (I'd have to drag the book out to get to the doses) and instead of proceeding into programmed cell death as expected) you end up with them developing into limbs. I threw it out there as a hypothesis since excess vitamin A could be aquired dietarily (and depending on the frequency of water changes accumulated in the rearing container from leaching from the food). 



jeeperrs said:


> This discussion is very similar to how we develop our external sex characteristics during the germinal/embryonic period. The "environment" can make a boy have genitals equal in appearance to a girl and visa versa. Majority of the time this is the result of a genetic problem (but we have some researchers saying it is also an environmental problem), such as the receptor sites are not being activated by the androgens produced by the gonads (when boys have genitals like girls, called androgen insensitivity) or the adrenal glands are producing too much testosterone (making a girls genitals look like a boys, called Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia). Due to this line of research we say it is genetic. However, if a mother starts to have issues producing too much of one hormone or another during this critical period we can see the same deformity. By this I mean, we can artificially place testosterone into the womb and make a genetically perfect girl develop male genitals. So, in this example it is the environment is what created what we traditionally think of being a genetic disorder. Why? The reason is that it is hormones during a critical period (matter of a few days during our development) that causes our genitals to develop, not a "specific gene". However, it is our genes that are to produce proteins that then create a properly functioning system. This takes us back to identifying it as a genetic disorder. Whew!


In the above example, a strong argument can also be made for enviromental agents causing the elevated hormone levels.. 



jeeperrs said:


> So, that is my preface to say that just because we know one chemical that increases the risks of multiple limbs doesn't rule everything out. So, if he is using a quality water source I would think that the risk would go down. Just my thoughts.


Except this ignores contamination from foods (since pet foods are not subject to the same regulatory oversight that human foods are), endocrine disruptors from plastics used in the tank or tadpole rearing containers, water storage containers (since anurans are known to be much more sensitive to some those chemicals than people are (and show signs often one or more decimal points lower than what is considered safe for people. For example estrogen mimicking chemicals have also been implicated in limb deformation of anurans (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1240167/pdf/ehp0108-001085.pdf (free access). 

Dog needs to go out gotta run. 

Ed


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

update, seems like its eating ok. . . 



















ill post a video shortly once i upload it to youtube


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)




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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

can it use all five legs or only four?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

seems like it uses all 5


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That vid is crazy! He *does* seem to be using all 5.


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

does that mean he has a leg up on all the other frogs?


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## Alegre323 (Sep 2, 2011)

goof901 said:


> does that mean he has a leg up on all the other frogs?


 lol


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Amazing lil guy...looks like he is doing well...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

That's amazing, Troy! 

I would have thought the 5th limb would have hindered him, but it clearly doesn't.


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

He is awesome! It's amazing the way he uses all of his legs.


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## pnwpdf (Nov 9, 2010)

I have to admit, that is an impressive little frog. That fifth leg seems to work pretty well.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Fascinating! It seems to clearly have neural functioning. I am happy you didn't put him down because he is different


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## djone2 (Mar 8, 2012)

Out of curiosity, how is this little guy doing?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

didnt make it


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> didnt make it


Such is usually the case. Sorry to hear this.


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## goldenglovz (Sep 12, 2012)

Wow that's weird


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