# Have you ever asked for or given a CITES permit with a frog?



## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

The paperwork requirements for CITES (which covers all dendrobatids) are pretty confusing at times. One of the recommendations from FWS is that individuals keep paperwork to track their animals, but the recommendations are pretty open

Have you ever asked for, received, or given a CITES permit with a frog?

What are your thoughts vendors and consumers? Would you be for this being the standard? Waste of time? What are your thoughts?

Marcos


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

When I imported the Terribilis along with a few other species in '97, everyone that bought frogs got a copy of the cities permits, the whole permit no matter what species they bought.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Mark,

That's really interesting and in my opinion a great way to help reduce some of the line/morph confusion out there. What was the reaction from the customer and would you continue that practice in the future?

Marcos


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

My importing was limited to the 2 shipments I did in the late 90's, (unfortunately I imported Chytrid before any of us knew what it was). I think there may have been one or 2 ask for paperwork, so I just made a bunch of copies and put one in with each shipment. There were a bunch of pickups in New York when the shipment came in and those folks did not get copies but most did not mention it. 
I sent Pat Nabors copies of the permits I had saved a couple of years ago. I think if people asked suppliers would give copies of paperwork unless they were afraid of their contacts being found out.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Interesting topic and I think we need a system like some of the fish hobbiests have. I know a number of people do not like the idea, but it is needed. We need IDs that describe country, location and etc... Then we need to track what we can as best we can. It would also be nice that when selling frogs that these IDs and or papers were transfered to the new owner.

On the other hand requiring it would never work for the minor to moderate hobbiest just looking for some nice frogs. Now the way to pull everyone in would be to get the general community behind it and to the point where people would not buy frogs without a proper code to describe them.

In my years in the hobby I have seen the hobby grow from the generic names like bumble bee and etc. While they are still used from time to time, it is much less than a few years ago. So anything is possible, but I have not seen a system yet that has been widely excepted.

I have noticed a coding system recently on the understory site, which is described at the link below, but is this enough? If it is enough then what would it take to have paper accompany each transfer, or is that required if a central database held them?
http://www.understoryenterprises.com/content/view/6/4/


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I've never asked for papers (probably should have with my recent pums), but I'd welcome the change and fully support it. 

I think a central, community driven, group might be a good way to approach this. Much like the AKC with dogs, but much more detailed in terms of the pedigree of the frogs.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I have paperwork for my blue jeans. It isn't the original CITES permit but it is a USFWS vendor permit which links the frogs to the original importer.

One devil's advocate question here. What do CITES permits from European imports really tell us? We still don't know the wild origin of those animals and it is still necessary to tease out potential relatedness with populations already in the states. Other than, of course, the permits help to prove the legality of the animals should the need arise.


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