# Im new at this and I'm not sure what happened??



## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

I picked the two small (?thumbnail?) leucomelas from the MI reptile show about 4 months ago. For 3 months it seemed like I couldnt feed them enough and they looked as healthy as could be. I then added some live moss, springtails and a small cave structure I bought from a local pet store. After I added the items both of the frogs would hide in the cave all the time and there hunger seemed to be gone. I thought they were just eating the springtails that I added but now im not so sure. Anyways about a week later I lifted up the cave to see if they were still alive and one hoped out and the other I found dead, I then took the cave out. A week after I found the first one dead the other one died. The second one still didnt look as if it had died because of hunger, because it still looked fine.

Now let me explaine my enclousure. I have a 10 gallon fish aquarium with the hood. I have those clay balls creathing a false bottom with a layer of the dead moss you can buy from the pet stores and then the live moss on top of that. It's lightly planted and has a some drift wood that is good in high humidity. Through the center there is a small "stream" about an inch deep with large size aquarium rocks. All the water i use is from the kroger refilling station so there is no clorine or anything. Oh yea i have a small pump supplying the "stream" with moving water so as to not let anything get stale.

I fed them mostly fruit flys although sometimes they would get some of the pin heads that i breed..


Sorry this is so long but I wanted to provide you with as much information as i could, I'd really like to know what happen because I'd like to get some more. So any ideas or help would be awsome, Thank You!


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

I'm no expert, but a few questions... 
-were you dusting their flies with calcium/multi-vits?
-wild caught or captive bred frogs?

Also, I'd put some real substrate (use the forum's search function for the best substrate mixes) over the LECA (clay balls) instead of just the dead moss.. from what I've read PDF's don't like being constantly wet, but just moist, and IIRC that moss stuff stays pretty waterlogged.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Derek (DCReptiles) had a bad experience adding live moss also, maybe contaminated with some type of pesticide or something - but getting fecals done when you got the frogs would show if they had parasites or some other type of infection that you would be able to treat


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i use a similar substrate, and have for a very long time with no ill effects.

like this

leaflitter
LFS (with clay enhancement)
gravel/ LECA

did you sanitize anything you put in the tank? where do you live where did you collect moss etc from?
i have to ask since you say they went downhill when you added this.

james


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

Both were captive bred, and i was dusting the flys. I must have had enough over the LECA because there were parts of the moss that would "dry out" more or less. The humidity was always high in the tank, close to 100%, and there temps were about 75ish.

Thanks for the input!


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

Everything that I had was bought from either the MI reptile show or a local pet store, and before i put anything in I would always wash everything off with the store bought water. And i also boiled the drift wood before I put it in.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Yeah Derek told me about that bad experience with the live moss. Has anyone else had this problem? Or do you think it was a freak thing?


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

To be a little bit clearer on the moss, I bought it from the same guy I bought the frogs from, and he used it in the cages he was selling the frogs out of.

Also how often should I have been changing the water? The cage had about a gallon or so of water that was constantly being circulated. 

I also had let the cage "set up" for about a month before I had added the frogs.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I would still concentrate more on the fecals, especially if you know the moss was safe


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

Its now been a month since I'v had the frogs, is there any way I can reuse some of the items in the cage....driftwood, LECA and the plants? 

I have moss that came from the same package in a different terrarium with no ill effects. The other terrarium is a much larger size with a lot less moss, would that make a difference if it was the moss?

I would do fecals, but isn't it way to late for that now?

Thanks for everyones help!


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah you can't do fecals now obviously. Just throw out all plants leca wood etc and clean the tank with a 10% bleach solution


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> The humidity was always high in the tank, close to 100%, and there temps were about 75ish.


What were you using to measure the temps and humidity? What kind of top did you have on the tank (i.e. screen, glass, or a mix, etc.)?

When frogs hunker down in the cave like you described, it most often indicates that the temp/humidity was not perfect and the frog was trying to cool or conserve moisture.

We recommend that 99% of froggers don't use any ventilation on their tanks. You'd be surprised how low the humidity in your house can dip when your AC or heater goes on.

At the next show, I'd talk to the vendor you got the frogs from and go through everything to make sure you are on the right track so your next frog purchase doesn't end the same way. In fact, bring in the tank to the show if you can carry it.

I wouldn't beat yourself up. There are millions of ways any animal can die. Just talk over your setup with the vendor you got the frogs from and he/she can probably point out a few things to tweak to improve your setup.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

I would start by emptying the tank and washing everything with a 10% bleach solution. I would also do the same with the hood, and lights; don't get water in any of the electrical components. Then do the whole thing over with fresh substrate, plants and moss if you desire. If you use any of the old stuff and the frogs die you'll have a harder time tracking down the root cause. At this point you’re in a process of elimination.


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

The tank they were is a 10 gallon fish tank with the aquatic hood which sealed it completely except for 2 holes about an 1/8 inch and where the plastic meets on the door they you would normaly open to feed fish. It was usualy hard to see inside the tank because of all the condensation. 

I was measuring the temp with a digital thermometer with probe.

Thanks for all the replys


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

Since, as I feared, I'll have to start over. I have different cage I'd like to try. Do the ZooMed Naturalistic Terrariums work well for darts if I cover the screen top?

I have the 18X18X24. My concern with this cage is the small gap around the glass door and the vent below that. Both are small and im not sure how much air movement you would get with just the small vent on the bottom.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Zoo Meds and Exo Terras are what most people actually use, you can just lay glass or plastic right on top of the screen lid that's locked in place. Search some builds on here


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## Blastin06 (Mar 21, 2010)

Ya, im sry, after I posted that I did some searches and found some stuff. Thanks for all the help!


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