# Can you have 2 species together?



## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Im planning to build a vivarium.
It'll be 20" tall, 12" wide and 10" deep, and i will fill it up with bromeliads, orchids and other plants.
But my question is: can i keep more than one species in it?
I wanted to have one ortwo pairs of R. amazonica.
But how about one pair of R. amazonica and one pair of R. variabilis?
Is that possible?


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

First welcome to DB. second,Your answer is No,no,no!You may want to use the search feature on this question.There has been a lot of discussion on this.It's definitely a very bad idea.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Here's one thread I pulled up in a search for you http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html ,but there are many more.You can find them by using the search button above in the green header.This will give you a good start in understanding why it is a bad idea to mix frogs.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Ok.
How many frogs of a single species would you then say i could have?
And am i right when i say that Ranitomeyas like to climb?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Welcome! That is about a ten gallon tank, so I would start with a pair. At one time ten gallons were pretty much the standard, but as husbandry has evolved, and improved, it it widely accepted that bigger is better. Keep researching, there is a lot of great information on this board.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

"Start with"? Does that mean, that i can let them breed and keep the little ones?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I started with a pair of FG amazonica in a 12×12×18 exo, and would pull eggs, tads and froglets. However, when I broke that tank down, there were 11 adult frogs in there.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

That's quite a fewfrogs in a that small terrarium!
But of course, they're not so big

Will they use the height of the viv, or will they just be on the bottom?
There will be bromeliads for them in the top.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Another excellent thread on the mixing topic: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Welcome aboard. I agree that mixing species is a bad idea, at least until you have experience keeping each and every species individually. You would also need a much larger tank. So while mixing species can be done, that is something best saved for later.
It sounds like you are taking that to heart, though, so here's to hoping this doesn't become another mixing thread.

Your vivarium size is going to limit you. You mentioned, _"i will fill it up with bromeliads, orchids and other plants"_. In your proposed 10 gallon vivarium, that is going to limit you to far fewer plants than you may be envisioning. One or two broms will actually eat up a large portion of your 10 gallon vivarium. Space will go fast. You present your opening statement as someone who will enjoy the _entire_ hobby, and not _just_ the frogs. I think that moving up in size, even just a little to say a 20 gallon, would be something to consider. Bigger vivs just give you sooo much more room to be able to enjoy _all_ of the hobby. Of course bigger is better for your frogs too.

Amazonica are a great choice when you are limited to smaller vivariums. They are a very "social" frog that does great in groups. Now who is better to determine how big a population your viv can support, than your frogs? Don't crowd them from the start. Start with a pair, or perhaps a trio of unsexed froglets. Let them do their thing and just enjoy it. Sometimes, as Jason has just shared with us, Amazonica may reproduce to surprisingly large numbers, even in a very small tank. 
Alternatively, just throwing 10 Amazonica at once, into your 10 gallon viv, is probably going to be a big mistake.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Don't worry, i will not mix them. Just a thought i got when i suddenly saw a picture of a variabilis. Amazing!

You are right about the space. I've found 2-3 really small bromeliads that don't fill the entire terrarium, and then i'll place them on the sides, so light can pass through.
But i actually want to fill it. Not a solid mass of plants, but nearly 
I think the biggest problem is, that i can't open the front, so i need to fix things on the bottom with pincers through the top.
I know its going to be hard, but i'm used to it from all my aquariums.
And then i like small tanks. I've made a 2g reef aquarium(works great), a 0,5g planted tank and lots of other miniatures. I don't know why, but I think it's more fun than making a big one...

Yes, i want to enjoy every part of this, so there will be a lot of things to learn about. Terrarium building and material, orchids, aquarium plants out of the water, other plants, making of a realistic background and waterfall, flow system to(hopefully) keep the windows clean, light and of course frogs is what i've done research on so far, and every single part is a whole science! I already love this project, and the terrarium isn't even built yet!

Happy to hear that i've chosen the right frog!
I think i'll buy a young trio, and then see what happens


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Bonus question:
How do i keep the glass(acrylic) clean? I want to be able to see through all the time...
The humidity inside will be ~70%, and the temperature will be 26c.
The viv will be completely without ventilation. A nearly airtight box.
Right now the temperature in the room is 26 degrees as well and the humidity is quite high too because of my many aquariums, so there is no problem, but in the winter it is probable cooler and less humid.
Is a 40-70mm fan aimed at the front enough to keep it clean, or do i need more than one?
Does it even need to be pointed at the glass? Would it be enough to make a flow system like this one in the back?





What's the best solution?
I want it to be as small as possible. The flow system takes a lot of room, but i think it's worth it if it worls...


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Tostra said:


> How do i keep the glass(acrylic) clean? I want to be able to see through all the time...
> The humidity inside will be ~70%, and the temperature will be 26c.
> The viv will be completely without ventilation. A nearly airtight box.


It will be really hard to have fog-free glass without ventilation.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

But not impossible, right?
Isn't it the air movement that removes the fog? If it is, it shouldn't be so hard...


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

I'll let someone else address that question, but why do you want a viv without vents? 

Ventilation is important to help frogs regulate their temperature through evaporative cooling.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Bacause it doesn't fit into my plans.
I simply can't find a good, discrete place for them.
And then i've seen it done successfully without ventilation, so why shouldn't i be able to do it too? 

How much airflow is needed to remove the fog?
I've just found a good 32cfm 60mm fan, would that be enough?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If your room is 26C, and your tank is completely sealed, then your tank will be 26C also, right? Now you describe high light loving plants like broms, so you are using very bright lights. It is a given that you will have to use LEDs for lower heat. You still have some heat from your lights heating up that viv. How are you going to address that if you are going to seal it up tightly? Temperature is going to be important, particularly since your sealed tank will remove the frogs ability to regulate their own body temperature through evaporative cooling. You have a .7C room for error. 80F, (26.6667C) is often given as the temperature to stay below, if you have no ventilation in your viv. That is something to watch out for.

Water features are generally used on larger vivariums. Your space is going to really be at a premium. If you are putting in a water feature, and a manifold for internal airflow...I just don't see fitting all this in to a 10 gallon viv and having enough space for your frogs. Keep in mind that water features are often considered wasted space. They are put in for you, not for your frogs, and your frogs would generally better utilize more floor space and climbing space. Remember too that water features splash. That may be hard to control in a small viv. I think you will find that a water feature in a sealed, 10 gallon viv, with lights for plants.....You will never see past the constant humidity. If you are set on a 10 gallon viv, do your best to make every inch usable.
Good luck.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you are including any thing that moves water then your also going to have account for the heat that is going to be dumped into the water by the pump. Most pumps use the water that moves through them for heat. 

Also people typically over-plant their builds which results in the the plants overgrowing each other resulting in visibilty issues as well as leggy plants. 

Venting is something in set-ups like this that should be considered a priority given the thermal constraints your already working with.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks Ed, I overlooked the thermal build up from the waterfall's pump. Without ventilation, the thermal constraints are daunting. There actually are possible solutions, with something like a nano reef chiller, like this IceProbe Thermoelectric Water Cooling Device, Nova Tec Inc. But that takes even more space, both in and out of the viv. Plus that heat has to go somewhere. It is simply radiated out of the silver heatsink/radiator, into your room.
I just don't see how you will fit even more into that viv, after the waterfall and air circulation manifold go in.
I think you should reconsider the possibilities of dropping the manifold idea, and embracing natural ventilation.

Edit: Grimm's air circulation manifold was very cool, but he was working with a much larger tank.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

I didn't know, that the limit was 80F...
But shouldn't i try to cool the room instead, then? Ventilation doesn't lower the temperature when the room is just as hot.
And thats another thing.
There will not be a heater in the tank if my room doesn't get too cold, so ventilation doesn't help on temp, right?
Btw, if the fan is powerful enough, that should cool it too.

Can one of you give me a good link that explains evaporative cooling?(i'll search myself too, but you know the good ones)

I really don't know about that waterfall...
It wanted one from the start, but im afraid ot will give me a way too high humidity.
I can make it small, but if it keeps the humidity too high, i cant really have it, right? Except if i can lower the humidity with a powerful fan...
And then i have a really hard time finding out how to make it look natural. I wanted it to go from left top to the right bottom, and that really takes some space, and its hard to do...

For light i will put 4-5m of 6500k 5630 LED strip with a dimmer on top of it. That will give a max of 1500 lumens. Is that enough?
I think i will put them on a fan-cooled heatsink, so they won't affect the temperature too much.


I think it would be a good idea to tell a bit more about the construction i want to make...
The terrarium will be 20X10X11" and made of acrylic.
It will be with a tight lid only with a corner hole for the wires, but maybe i'll make a ventilation stripe or two.
I dont want them, because i think its possible to use gans instead, but before i decide that, i'll search for an explenation on evaporative cooling.
There will be a false bottom filled with water, 2-5cm deep, and i will make a (very) small pool in the front right corner.
In the left back corner i will make a 2,75X3,9" box for the water pump going from the top to ~1cm over the bottom, so the water can come into it.
The pump pumps the water to a container in the top, where my ultrasonic fogger is. From that container, fog and water goes out in the waterfall.
And then in the right corner i will make a flow system like Grimm's with a 60mm fan.
The animals will not have access to the pump, the fan or the fogger.
But do you think that fly-safe net will stop/weaken the air flow from the fan or the waterflow?

So in the end, about 16,3"2 is gone.
If i skip the waterfall, only 13"2 is used, and if i skip both the waterfall and the fogger, it will only be 5,56"2.
And then i'll make a background, but not a big one.
On top of it i will make a lamp of LED strips on a fan-cooled alu heatsink.
There will be dimmers for both fans and light.
I don't know if i should put the fogger on a timer, on a sensor or turn it on manually when its too dry... What do you think?

Thats my thoughts for now


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Ok, so evaporation cooling is when water evaporates from their skin, using the frog's energy, so they cool down.
Just as we get cold when water evaporates after a bath, right?
But how can ventilation help them do that?
Isnt it just the airflow ventilation provides, that helps?
And then the pool and the water in the bromeliads help them to rehydrate.

If thats true, a fan does a better job than just vents..?


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

What you need to understand is that if your tank is completely sealed water won't evaporate because it has no where to go. Your humidity will approach 100% very quickly and all the fans in the world won't make the water evaporate off of your frog's skin or the front glass. I keep campaigning for a sticky on ventilation in the beginner's section to explain all of this, but I don't think I have the gravitas to write it myself.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tostra said:


> Ok, so evaporation cooling is when water evaporates from their skin, using the frog's energy, so they cool down.



Not exactly. The frog absorbs water from the substrate through the drinking patch (which is energetic) and then transports it to the skin where it is secreted (again costing energy). The evaporation doesn't cost the frog any energy only the movement of the water. 



Tostra said:


> But how can ventilation help them do that?


Because the more humidity that is in the air means that less can evaporate off of the skin of the frog. Moving air that has a humidity of approaching 100% will not let water evaporate regardless of how much the air moves. This is why installing a fan into a tightly sealed tank doesn't help as it does nothing to correct humidity. 
Conditions outside of the enclosure inside a house are generally much drier, and a vent allows an exchange with the room air lowering the humidity in the enclosure. This change in humidity not only allows water to evaporate off of the frog, it also lets evaporation cool the enclosure. 



Tostra said:


> Isnt it just the airflow ventilation provides, that helps?


No, see above. 



Tostra said:


> If thats true, a fan does a better job than just vents..?


No see above. I thought this had all been discussed several times over in other threads. 

A properly vented tank also helps prevent CO2 asphyxiation in the tanks. A sealed tank encourages the buildup of CO2 in the lowest levels of the tank. I know for a fact that the reasoning behind this has been discussed several times over... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Oh now i understand it 
I didn't think of the high humidity preventing evaporation...
And yes, the humidity quickly reaches 100%, i can clearly see that in my temporary storage-terrarium for plants that i want in this vivarium(why not buy them now?)

What i meant was, that the water needs energy to evaporate, which is taken from the frog.

Since the humidity in my room is really high, it would be better to find a way to lower the humidity inside the vivarium.
That would let water evaporate, cooling both the frogs and the too hot vivarium. I was looking at mini fridges right now, but this is a better idea

There is still the CO2 buildup problem, but can't that be prevented with a good airflow?

As you see, i would really like to find a way to make it without vents


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Tostra said:


> Since the humidity in my room is really high, it would be better to find a way to lower the humidity inside the vivarium.


I doubt your room has 100% humidity.



Tostra said:


> As you see, i would really like to find a way to make it without vents


Yes, we noticed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tostra said:


> What i meant was, that the water needs energy to evaporate, which is taken from the frog.


No. If it required energy to force the water to evaporate the frog would have to put energy into forcing it into the air which would eliminate the cooling benefit. You can force humidity into the air by heating (boiling) it which is less dependent on the environmental temperatures (as long as it is at regular air pressure) than evaporation which is dependent on the humidity and the temperature. 



Tostra said:


> Since the humidity in my room is really high, it would be better to find a way to lower the humidity inside the vivarium.
> That would let water evaporate, cooling both the frogs and the too hot


When your dealing with closed systems it's a lot harder. Cooling the tank is going to increase the heat in the room which in turn makes it harder to cool the tank as the ambient temperature is increasing. This is why they vent air conditioner heat to the outside of the house.... It only works well if there is a ready source to dump the heat. This is why it's better to set the enclosure up in a way to prevent the problem before it happens. 



Tostra said:


> There is still the CO2 buildup problem, but can't that be prevented with a good airflow?


How does this remove CO2 from the system? All it does it move it around. Don't forget that at night, the plants take up O2 and release CO2 which is then trapped inside the enclosure. This is before we get to all of the other biological processes that produce CO2 like decomposition of leaf litter..... 



Tostra said:


> As you see, i would really like to find a way to make it without vents


You can always ignore the advice that is backed up with sound reasoning but then if the system fails on you, your not going to get much if any sympathy.... And that is before you'll need to break down the tank and discard the organics. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

Im not ignoring anything. I dont hope it sounds like that?
I just really dont like vents, so im trying to find a way to do it without.

Its a fact that any action requires energy. When water evaporates, that energy is taken from whatever it is on, cooling it down.
You can compare it to opening a container of compressed gas. For instance a gasflask or a can of soda. The sudden expansion cools the container down really fast.

No, it will not remove the CO2. I thought you meant that it was building up as a lyer on the bottom, not allowing the frogs to breathe.
But i've never heard of plants consuming O2 at night? Are you sure about that?
I know that the photosyntesis stops at night, but even reverse photosyntesis?
Domt you mean that there is not produced O2 at night, but the animals still consume iit?

I just got an idea that can maybe solve the humidity and temperature problems.
How about putting a peltier device in Grimm's flow system, cooling the air and taking out water from the air, lowering both parameters at once?
And then i would put an aluminum plate on the hot side, leading the heat out of the vivarium, where it is cooled by a fan.
Of course the part of the aluminum plate thats inside the viv needs to be isolated.
Don't you think that would help alot?
There is a difference at 68c on the peltier im looking at, which means that the cold side will be about -8c when the sorruonding air is 26c.
And the hot side will be 60c, but since that end is not supposed to affect the vivarium, that doesnt really matter. It just takes some good isolation...


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Tostra said:


> I just got an idea that can maybe solve the humidity and temperature problems.
> How about putting a peltier device in Grimm's flow system, cooling the air and taking out water from the air, lowering both parameters at once?
> And then i would put an aluminum plate on the hot side, leading the heat out of the vivarium, where it is cooled by a fan.
> Of course the part of the aluminum plate thats inside the viv needs to be isolated.
> ...


That is a lot of work for a 10 gallon tank... At that point you would probably be better off just picking up a 12x12x18 exo terra and calling it a day. 

To be honest, it seems like you are trying to go through a lot of effort to reinvent the wheel here and in the end I really doubt it is going to give you the results you are looking for. More importantly, it still may not be able to provide the frogs with the conditions they need to be healthy and thrive.


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## ExoticRepublic (Apr 28, 2014)

Dude, just put in a 2 inch grommet with screen as a vent. That will work fine, and you can hide it. I don't see the problem with vents, and like carola said, that's way too much work for a ten gallon. You'll be spending hundreds, and then you'll want more (no one ever just gets one frog  and it's going to keep costing you a fortune, when you can just use a small little vent that can be easily hidden.


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## kgj (May 2, 2014)

Not meaning to hijack- but it sounds like the best of both worlds is a 'sealed' vivarium with internal fans and a small vent (let's say 1 1/8" circular, because I have that diamond bit laying around...) on the top. Cover the vent with some no-see-um mesh, throw a washer or something on it to make it look nice. Fans inside create circulation, while the vent allows for gas exchange (ventilation) and temperature regulation. Significant decreases in humidity can be prevented by adjusting the size of the vent- easy with some plastic wrap, cut plexi, even the glass plug (after being seamed, of course). 

I have this right?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kgj said:


> Not meaning to hijack- but it sounds like the best of both worlds is a 'sealed' vivarium with internal fans and a small vent (let's say 1 1/8" circular, because I have that diamond bit laying around...) on the top. Cover the vent with some no-see-um mesh, throw a washer or something on it to make it look nice. Fans inside create circulation, while the vent allows for gas exchange (ventilation) and temperature regulation. Significant decreases in humidity can be prevented by adjusting the size of the vent- easy with some plastic wrap, cut plexi, even the glass plug (after being seamed, of course).
> 
> I have this right?


I would suggest going larger with a vent system as opposed to smaller. The reason is as you noted that it's going to be easier to reduce a vent than to expand it once the enclosure is setup. 

There is way too much emphasis on humidity in this hobby and it can really lead to some real husbandry issues. One of the things people complained about for a long time is how bromeliads and other plants would rot in old style sealed enclosures. This is directly linked to a lack of air movement and excess moisture. 
Many of the dendrobatids in the hobby are quite content at an ambient humidity above 60% (and notable sources indicate that 60% is suitable for normal behaviors including reproduction (example, Poison Frogs, Lotters et al.). Maximizing the humidity doesn't really benefit the animals instead it puts the animals at greater risk of death if there are problems with temperature (example, AC unit goes out, heat wave). The few 20 gallon verticals I have set up have vents that cover the top 4 inches of the tank front and I regret not cutting some vents lower down on the sides to contribute to greater circulation. I even have some small fans to mount on the corners of those vents to push/pull air into and out of the cages. I have no problems getting pumilio to breed under those conditions and oddly enough I don't lose bromeliads to rotting... I lose them because they shade themselves out by pupping and repupping and I have to every so often cut them back and reattach some to the backgrounds. 
You may want to check out this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/182577-true-story.html

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tostra said:


> Its a fact that any action requires energy. When water evaporates, that energy is taken from whatever it is on, cooling it down.
> You can compare it to opening a container of compressed gas. For instance a gasflask or a can of soda. The sudden expansion cools the container down really fast.


The expansion of a gas from a high pressure to a low pressure uses a different thermodynamic principle than evaporative cooling. To force evaporation in a saturated environment requires adding heat to the system.. there is a lot of difference and I could dig out my copy of the CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry and work out the actual numbers using the determined constants but it's in the attic and a little more work than I'm interested in doing. 



Tostra said:


> No, it will not remove the CO2. I thought you meant that it was building up as a lyer on the bottom, not allowing the frogs to breathe.


In static enclosure since it is heavier than oxygen it will displace oxygen from the bottom of the enclosure resulting in pockets where suffocation is very likely however a sealed enclosure doesn't have any way to deal with respired CO2 which is also a risk even in a churned atmosphere. 



Tostra said:


> But i've never heard of plants consuming O2 at night? Are you sure about that?


Yes. 



Tostra said:


> I know that the photosyntesis stops at night, but even reverse photosyntesis?


Photosynthesis is the fixing of carbon dioxide into a sugar with the release of O2 as a byproduct. The cells also require O2 for regular respiration needs. At night, these respiration requirements are still present and yes there is some consumption of sugars to meet energy needs which results in the release of CO2 as a byproduct but the total consumption is generally not equivalent to the amount of O2 that is produced during the day so there is a net gain. However what is produced at night is washed into the atmosphere preventing the issues that can occur in a closed environment. 



Tostra said:


> Domt you mean that there is not produced O2 at night, but the animals still consume iit?


No, see above. The animals, microfauna and the microbes are all also expelling CO2 which in a closed enclosure isn't going anywhere. 

I just got an idea that can maybe solve the humidity and temperature problems.



Tostra said:


> And then i would put an aluminum plate on the hot side, leading the heat out of the vivarium, where it is cooled by a fan.
> Of course the part of the aluminum plate thats inside the viv needs to be isolated.


Keep in mind that I pointed out that heating the air outside of the enclosure is going to further heat the enclosure. Even fairly well insulated objects can transport heat, feel the outside of your oven the next time it's been on for awhile. 
You would still end up having to control the temperature in the room to make it effective. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

To jump in here does air circulation via a fan trump small ventilation size?

i.e would a tank with a small vent but a fan pulling air out of it be equivalent to a tank with large but passive vents?

I have a few dart frogs in full screen top unconverted zoomeds. I do have a water feature in one and frequently mist all/add water via a dosing pump. I feel this is a more natural system than sealing up the tanks and the glass stays much cleaner.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

I could probably fix the humidity and temperature problem, but the CO2 is hard...
And i obviously haven't yet completely understood evaporation cooling 
But i know that expansion is something else. It was just to show that things can cool down when the energy is needed elsewhere.

I give up...
How small can the vents be? How many do i need and where should i place them? They cant be on the top, because theres a lamp, and i dont would be happy not to have anything disturbing the view through the bottom of the front.
I will still make the flow system with a 32-54CFM fan, so i can add flow if the vent(s) doesnt completely remove the fog from the glass.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

I still want it to be nearly-sealed, because the room temperature is 26c, so i will probably still need to cool it down with that peltier device, and that will provably not work if its too "open".
I know that it will heat up the room, but i still think its a good idea.
You say that 60% humidity is good?
The humidity in the room is 55%, so if i make the waterfall(i think i do), i will probably get a lot closer to 100%, so a dehumidifier will not be bad to have...
And then i can cool it down at night.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> To jump in here does air circulation via a fan trump small ventilation size?
> 
> i.e would a tank with a small vent but a fan pulling air out of it be equivalent to a tank with large but passive vents?
> 
> I have a few dart frogs in full screen top unconverted zoomeds. I do have a water feature in one and frequently mist all/add water via a dosing pump. I feel this is a more natural system than sealing up the tanks and the glass stays much cleaner.


At the zoo pretty much all of the enclosures I used for dart frogs were screen topped or had a lot of ventilation. I modified the ventilation slightly by placing a thin sheet of plexi over a portion of the lid. The warping would remind me to pay attention to the humidity level of of the tank. 

As for the fan, it would depend on the amount of air that the fan can move, keep in mind that the smaller the fan and the finer the mesh, the less air it can move. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Ed said:


> The warping would remind me to pay attention to the humidity level of of the tank.
> 
> Ed


Ed, what does the warping have to do with the humidity?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ed, what does the warping have to do with the humidity?


The plastic actually absorbs a small amount of water which causes the plastic on that side to expand. So if the piece is warping away from the tank, the humidity is higher inside the tank than the humidity outside the tank (or water was condensing on the lid if there was a sufficient difference in temperature). If you flip the lid the warping goes in the opposite direction while the upper surface dries out. 

This is why plexiglass lids without extra support to prevent warping is a bad idea. After a period of time, the plexiglass will bow away from the tank allowing things to escape or enter the enclosure. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Thanks Ed.
All my tanks are vented with plexiglass covers. I just assumed the warping was from the lights.


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## Tostra (Jun 12, 2014)

I just found out that the difference i temperature on that peltier was 68F and not c.
So it wont cool that much...

Will a small round vent in the top of each side of the viv be enough?
How small can i male them and is it best to have them in the front, the middle or the back of the acrylic?


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Deleted response. Re read thread.


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