# bugs in and around my springtail culture. macro pics.



## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

saw these on my large culture.
I checked my 2 smaller cultures and didn't see them.
I killed them all.
Anyone know what they are?


































these two were mating...at least they died having a good time lol.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Disregard what I said earlier...those are not what I have gotten in my vivs. Those jokers look mean! Glad you smooshed em.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> Disregard what I said earlier...those are not what I have gotten in my vivs. Those jokers look mean! Glad you smooshed em.


yeah man they do. they have the thorax of a termite or wasp.
I hope I don't see anymore but there was about 7 of them.

I hope someone can ID them for me


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## toxicterribilis (Mar 21, 2008)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> these two were mating...at least they died having a good time lol.


LMAO... 

Could be fungal gnats or jewel wasps ...


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Do you use calciworms?or pheonix worms?if so maybe a soldier fly


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

toxicterribilis said:


> LMAO...
> 
> Could be fungal gnats or jewel wasps ...


yeah Field thought they was fungal gnats when I texted him but now that he is seeing them he is saying they don't look like them.

why would jewel wasps hang out in or near a springtail culture and live under the rim of the culture.
although I did capture one with a kleenex and it looked like the end of its thorax got trapped in the tissue so maybe it was it's stinger. or maybe his was like oh sh*t and pissed himself lol 

if they are jewel wasps do they pose any threat to the springs or to me by stinging me?


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## toxicterribilis (Mar 21, 2008)

Hard for me to see them in the pic from my phone .. did they have wings ?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

marylanddartfrog said:


> Do you use calciworms?or pheonix worms?if so maybe a soldier fly


nope all I have is the springtails.
I will research this said soldier fly tho.
thanks for the reply


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## marylanddartfrog (Jun 6, 2011)

Ask doug or ed about this one


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not a soldier fly. Fungus gnat. See for example the images here GreenCoast Hydroponics Blog: Fungus Gnats 

There are multiple genera and species of what is collectively known as fungus gnats see Fungus gnat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

marylanddartfrog said:


> Ask doug or ed about this one


meh I wish I could ask Doug but me and him don't speak anymore.
I wish it didn't have to be like that tho -___-






Ed said:


> Not a soldier fly. Fungus gnat. See for example the images here GreenCoast Hydroponics Blog: Fungus Gnats
> 
> There are multiple genera and species of what is collectively known as fungus gnats see Fungus gnat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Ed


we have a winner!
that's exactly what I saw.
although fieldnstream mentioned it first in text. yet couldn't ID it in pics 
he is the reason I have them cause he says feed your springs with mushrooms.
thanks a lot Field  (joke)
Mushrooms work really well and the springs tear them up plus it seems like it give them a good congregating spot to breed at unlike yeast where you sprinkle it all over and the springs are all spread out eating.


Thanks tho Ed and I appreciate you letting the past go man.
you truly are a wise man.
so are these guys harmful to my culture?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They will compete with the springtails for food and can overrun the culture. Mushrooms can be a lure to them but I've had them on occasion show up in cultures fed yeast. Mainly increase the water changes will help control them. But be prepared to start the cultures over if they start taking over. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> They will compete with the springtails for food and can overrun the culture. Mushrooms can be a lure to them but I've had them on occasion show up in cultures fed yeast. Mainly increase the water changes will help control them. But be prepared to start the cultures over if they start taking over.
> 
> Ed


I'm also worried about current bugs I have in my viv that might compete with springtails for food. I have co2 bombed already and they are still running around.
when you say start over do you mean toss out the entire culture, springtails and all or just make an entire new culture and put those springs in it?
maybe I really just need to get some containers that seal better like ziploc containers and they can't get in?
I'm using shoebox containers that don't really have lids that snap on there. more like the lids are just rest on the container and not sealing it.

I've been asking about water changes with springtail cultures....does the water need to be changed out regularly and how do I change the water without loosing springtails?

thanks for the help Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> meh I wish I could ask Doug but me and him don't speak anymore.
> I wish it didn't have to be like that tho -___-


You made it abundantly clear, in public, that you feel I have nothing to offer the hobby and that you don't want my help. Our situation will never change without the apology that you refuse to give.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> You made it abundantly clear, in public, that you feel I have nothing to offer the hobby and that you don't want my help. Our situation will never change without the apology that you refuse to give.


I always refer people to your threads to you and your son's thread about ABG mix and if people need bug help I say you are the guy so why in the world would I think that you have nothing to offer the hobby yet I use your information and give it to others as useful information?
I even printed off your springtail culture how to.

I asked if we could move on and I have the messages to prove it.
you wanted to make this public so here we are.
I have apologized and I have asked if we could move on and if you claim otherwise I can make the PMs public in the lounge for all to see that I have done so.

I'll even apologize publicly. 
Doug I was at a bad point in my life at that time and I was kinda being a prick and I had everyone on here all over me on the mixing issue and separating the animals cause they was in a tank too small. No one wanted to give me time to get the separated. I was getting heavily irritated, several members even chimed in and said I was being treated unfairly and everyone needed to give me time to separate all of the animals.
Just cause I wouldn't do it as quickly as you and others wanted does not mean that I thought you had nothing to offer. I simply didn't have the money or the tanks to get the separated at the time.
I might have questioned who you was and your creditably because I was a n00b and didn't know anyone and I was foolish.
So please just let all this go and lets move on. It's been like over 6 months.
I'm sorry if you ever felt as I was claiming that I thought you had nothing to offer cause that was not my intention.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you. Done and done.
Your fungus gnats are pretty much harmless. Just annoying as all get out. They will compete with your springtails for food, at least in their larval form. Do you see any tiny maggots in your springtail media?
You could always start a clean, sterile, culture in a well sealed container. Make sure only springtails and NO fungus gnat larvae get transferred.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Thank you. Done and done.
> Your fungus gnats are pretty much harmless. Just annoying as all get out. They will compete with your springtails for food, at least in their larval form. Do you see any tiny maggots in your springtail media?
> You could always start a clean, sterile, culture in a well sealed container. Make sure only springtails and NO fungus gnat larvae get transferred.


well I did started off by washing the container with a 10% bleach solution then I placed the substrate in the container and places the springs I got from Field into the container.
Although I'm using ABG and leaf litter in my culture. Making it like it would be in the wild. I just make 2 smaller cultures with charcoal tho to test the methods...see which one produces faster.
Idk if 
I see tons of springs of all sizes and they move around quick as if a bug would not slowly crawling like larvae/maggots would. 
I'm hoping I caught them before they laid eggs but if eggs were laid and I see the maggots crawling around do I have to trash the whole culture?
How would I possibly be able to make sure I only get springs and no maggot?
It seems so impossible in my mind lol.

since I use mushrooms to feed do you think the gnats could have came in on those?
I wash the mushroom and nuke it for 20 seconds and let it cool before putting it into the culture.

thanks for the help and I'm glad we got over all that stuff


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

They may have come in on your mushrooms as they are a fungus. Honestly I don't know if a 20 second nuke is enough to kill anything off or not. They could have come in on your ABG mix or leaves since they were not sterilized. I don't bother to sterilize ABG when I set up a viv and the vivs usually go through a cycle of having fungus gnats. I always microwave the crap out of ABG or any leaf or substrate when using in a culture.
Try stirring your culture up a bit so that any fliers will fly off. Then, put your culture into a cake pan. Then, blow across the top. You can try stirring a bit while you blow across the top. Some of the springtails should be blown into the cake pan. The maggots will be too heavy. Quickly dump the springtails into a clean, sterile, culture container. You will never be able to get them all out, but it only takes a few to start a clean culture. Obviously, the more you can get in there, the quicker it will take off. You can continue to use the old one until your new one gets cranking, or until the fungus gnats drive you up the wall.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Or flood the container, tilt the container to concentrate the springtails down at one end and then blow hard on it to get the springtails into the new culture. 

You'll need to set it up somewhere you can prevent the fungus gnats from accessing it as they will happily move into the new cultures. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> They may have come in on your mushrooms as they are a fungus. Honestly I don't know if a 20 second nuke is enough to kill anything off or not. They could have come in on your ABG mix or leaves since they were not sterilized. I don't bother to sterilize ABG when I set up a viv and the vivs usually go through a cycle of having fungus gnats. I always microwave the crap out of ABG or any leaf or substrate when using in a culture.
> Try stirring your culture up a bit so that any fliers will fly off. Then, put your culture into a cake pan. Then, blow across the top. You can try stirring a bit while you blow across the top. Some of the springtails should be blown into the cake pan. The maggots will be too heavy. Quickly dump the springtails into a clean, sterile, culture container. You will never be able to get them all out, but it only takes a few to start a clean culture. Obviously, the more you can get in there, the quicker it will take off. You can continue to use the old one until your new one gets cranking, or until the fungus gnats drive you up the wall.


I'm thinking about boiling the mushrooms and see how that pans out or nuking them submerged in water.
wow that cake pan trick seems tricky cause my culture container is pretty tall. I would have to use one of those foil turkey pans.
I will get one next time I'm at the dollar store.
I might have to tip it a bit tho cause it like a good 5 inches from the substrate to the rim....it's all the ABG I had left over lol.
I was also thinking about using a colander lined with coffee filters to get all that nasty water out if the culture doesn't develop maggots. That way I can save the springs but the nasty water is gone. It is pretty fowl...almost smells like sewage water.

the next substrate culture I was gonna make was gonna be eco earth, orchid bark, sphagnum moss, charcoal and magnolia leaf litter.
the charcoal will be put down on top of the substrate and broken into smaller pieces then the leaf litter on top.
just experimenting lol. what do you think of that one?
btw don't worry I will be making a culture how your guide says just in case my experiments crash I will have it to fall back on. 
It may be a while before I get to get any frogs anyway.

have you ever thought about instead of charcoal to use your clay substrate?
I'm thinking about replacing the charcoal with the clay substrate in the mixture above and also thought about just putting straight clay substrate in a culture. Only issue I'm thinking of is the clay floating, when you go to flood the culture to feed, like LECA tends to float sometimes.
I'm considering on experimenting with this straight clay substrate as well.
I just don't get the charcoal thing since it's not what they would have in the wild.
what essential roll does the charcoal play? I've always wondered

sorry for asking so many questions, I'm a brainstormer and I like to experiment and mess around and try new things lol.
I appreciate you taking the time to answer them 

oh one more thing lol
this is the charcoal I am using....is it kosher?
8.8lb bag got it at Kroger(local grocery store) for $6.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> Or flood the container, tilt the container to concentrate the springtails down at one end and then blow hard on it to get the springtails into the new culture.
> 
> You'll need to set it up somewhere you can prevent the fungus gnats from accessing it as they will happily move into the new cultures.
> 
> Ed


yet if you flood the culture wouldn't the gnat maggots just get transferred into the other culture and the problem starts over again?

he was telling me how to separate the springs from the gnat maggots. 
Just in case you missed that


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> yet if you flood the culture wouldn't the gnat maggots just get transferred into the other culture and the problem starts over again?
> 
> he was telling me how to separate the springs from the gnat maggots.
> Just in case you missed that


thats what ed was telling you how to do as well.

springtails are too small to break the surface tension of water and therefore float on top of it. if you flood the culture to the rim of the container you can blow on the floating springtails and transfer them that way.

i dont see the necessity to experiment like your doing. use a mix that works and trash everything you have IMO (start with a new clean culture and use only yeast to feed).

james


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Yeah, what James said.
The charcoal you are using is fine. I do my springtail cultures on charcoal because harvesting them off the charcoal is quick and simple. Flood and pour for a big harvest. Pick up a piece and tap it off for a small harvest.
My clay formula would probably work great to grow springtails but how would you harvest? Complete floodings would break down the clay. Grabbing spoonfuls or handfuls would compact the clay.
Once your clay substrate is set up, you cannot mess with it. 
As far as springtails go, they way they grow in the wild is not optimal. We can do better. In the wild, there may be thousands in a 4 foot by 4 foot decomposing, pile of whatever. In a proper culture, you can cultivate many thousands in a plastic shoebox, without the smell.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Those look like the Fungus Knats I have. I've never had them get into any cultures, but I have them in most of my tanks. They actually seem to be good to keep around, especially in pumilio tanks. Even froglets love the larva. Then again, I've never had them get to the point of being pests, and I sprinkle tons of different things in my tanks for springs and isos.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I hate these damn things. They got into all of my initial cultures of isos, not sure how, but they are there. I restarted some new cultures in some sterilite containers that I got on sale at target by transfering over only large adult isos. The ABG mix I used, I microwaved it for 5 minutes, poured it immediately into the culture container, then froze it, thawed it and then added the isos. So far so good. 

Fungus gnats bloomed initially in all off my vivs but they disperse after a while. Whats hilarious is watching a thumbnail leap and snag one mid air. My new Cristobals seem very adept at doing this. I did sterilize all the stuff for my vivs but I suspect that they were able to enter unseen while I was doing the planting/adding soil/etc.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

james67 said:


> thats what ed was telling you how to do as well.
> 
> springtails are too small to break the surface tension of water and therefore float on top of it. if you flood the culture to the rim of the container you can blow on the floating springtails and transfer them that way.
> 
> ...


well I like to expirament and try new things and will continue to do so.

what I was asking is wouldn't the gnat larvae float as well as the springtails when you flood the culture? therefore really defeats the purpose of making a new culture.

these springtails go crazy over these mushrooms and I plan on using musrooms and getting some yeast soon as well and seeing which they prefer.
So far I have heard that they do prefer mushrooms better and they reproduce quicker as well.
as others have said they still get fungal gnats from yeast as well so ditching the mushrooms might not fix the issue.

I'm not the type that goes completely by the book. 
I like to think outside the box and experiment with things.
As long as I'm using frog safe stuff there shouldn't be an issue.
I love innovation and if I can make something better then cool, if I fail...oh well...onto the next experiment or back to the drawing board.
Also I don't mind taking the time to mess around with other things. It's no trouble to me. Even if I fail it's no trouble to me....it's a learning experience in success or failure. So in the end if you learned something you never truly failed no matter the outcome. Just pick yourself back up and avoid making the same mistake.
Yeah we have things that work just fine but we are always trying new things and innovating and making it better.
Android phones have came so far in such a short period of time...news one's are released so frequently cause new innovations are made. 
So I experiment to find things that might work better for me but like I said I will have a culture that I will be doing by the book in case my experiment cultures crash.

so no worries 




Pumilo said:


> Yeah, what James said.
> The charcoal you are using is fine. I do my springtail cultures on charcoal because harvesting them off the charcoal is quick and simple. Flood and pour for a big harvest. Pick up a piece and tap it off for a small harvest.
> My clay formula would probably work great to grow springtails but how would you harvest? Complete floodings would break down the clay. Grabbing spoonfuls or handfuls would compact the clay.
> Once your clay substrate is set up, you cannot mess with it.
> As far as springtails go, they way they grow in the wild is not optimal. We can do better. In the wild, there may be thousands in a 4 foot by 4 foot decomposing, pile of whatever. In a proper culture, you can cultivate many thousands in a plastic shoebox, without the smell.


yeah I see what you mean. 
So with clay substrates they will be dry but once enough water is supplied it with get mooshy and you can't mess around with it?
I didn't know how resilient the clay was gonna be. I thought it would be more resilient than that. 
I figured when you let it dry it would harden and hold up better or if it's baked. I guess not 
I still might mess around with it and just goof off with it. 
Not trying to make you think I'm not listening to you. I just wanna goof around with it and just see how fast they produce in it. mostly to see if I wanna use it in a viv.
The calcium carbonate is very great for the springs to be around cause it supplements the frogs with calcium from the springtails....correct?
that's the main reason I wanna use clay in a spring culture.

My culture smells....lol pretty bad.....it's horrible. It's the water. I don't smell it until I tilt it and the water comes out from under the substrate.
I'm pretty sure it's from using the ABG mix as substrate and it's getting all swampy and stagnant lol.
That's why I asked about using a colander and some coffee filters to completely get rid of the nasty water and the coffee filer would catch the springs. 

Is there a way to make it to where the clay won't break down and get mooshy?
and when I go to use a clay substrate in my viv would it hold it's shape as long as you don't mess with it or will it eventually loose it's shape and turn into a sheet of clay on top of my ABG?

thanks for the info


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> what I was asking is wouldn't the gnat larvae float as well as the springtails when you flood the culture? therefore really defeats the purpose of making a new culture.


If you think about it, springtails (as noted above) sit on the surface of the water (they do not break the surface tension), the larger fungus gnat larvae are below the surface tension of the water. So when you blow across the surface of the water (this doesn't break the surface tension) the springtails are wafted into the new culture leaving behind the fungus gnats. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> these springtails go crazy over these mushrooms and I plan on using musrooms and getting some yeast soon as well and seeing which they prefer. So far I have heard that they do prefer mushrooms better and they reproduce quicker as well.


All of the claims are anecdotal and I suspect that if we did a controlled study we would find that the reason people see a difference is because they underfeed the yeast either in quantity, frequency or both.... 
It isn't that they prefer one to the other. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> as others have said they still get fungal gnats from yeast as well so ditching the mushrooms might not fix the issue.


The fungus gnats come and feed on the biofilm in the container. You don't see fungus gnats when you are feeding the colonies correctly and are removing the excess nutrients as that controls the levels of the biofilm and odor. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm not the type that goes completely by the book. I like to think outside the box and experiment with things.
> As long as I'm using frog safe stuff there shouldn't be an issue.
> I love innovation and if I can make something better then cool, if I fail...oh well...onto the next experiment or back to the drawing board.


There is a difference between thinking out of the box, and tossing away the manual and associated information and beating it with a hammer. Thinking outside of the box means that you understand the issue and are looking at novel ways to meet the goals. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> The calcium carbonate is very great for the springs to be around cause it supplements the frogs with calcium from the springtails....correct?


Since when? Calcium is integral to the formation of the exoskeleton in virtually all taxa of chitin forming invertebrates. This in no way means that the ratio of calcium to phosphorus is appropriate as a calcium source for the frogs. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> My culture smells....lol pretty bad.....it's horrible. It's the water. I don't smell it until I tilt it and the water comes out from under the substrate.


And this is why the fungus gnats are in it. If you don't keep ontop of the cultures you will also get moth flies and phorid flies overrunning the cultures and your enclosures (both of those impact eggs). 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm pretty sure it's from using the ABG mix as substrate and it's getting all swampy and stagnant lol.


Which is why you don't see recommendations for it to be used in that manner. If you are using it for springtail cultures it is kept slightly moist like you would for isopods. To harvest the springtails, you would typically place handfuls of it into the enclosures. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Is there a way to make it to where the clay won't break down and get mooshy?


Yes, fire it in a kiln. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> and when I go to use a clay substrate in my viv would it hold it's shape as long as you don't mess with it or will it eventually loose it's shape and turn into a sheet of clay on top of my ABG?


As I think has been noted before, you do not place the clay ontop of the ABG mix... The clay should be used under some leaf litter with some spots of clay coming up through the leaf litter. If you wish, you can use some ABG mix to make planting pockets in the clay. The most productive zone for invertebrate growth and function (As has been noted in the Ultimate Clay Thread) is the interface where the leaf litter contacts the clay surface. 


Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

ok im going to respond as bluntly and truthfully as possible;
the problem is that your not experimenting. your just wildly throwing things together (many times against the suggestion of knowledgeable hobbyists). 

you said earlier that you were sorry for offending doug but its because you were a "noob" and didnt know any better. please realize that youve been in the hobby less than a year, that your still a novice and that the only way to advance in the hobby is to take the advice of reputable hobbyists, and build a firm knowledge before you try and reinvent the wheel. i think youve sort of alienated yourself and certainly left a bad taste, by your unwillingness to listen to others advice, and the way you respond to people in a derogatory manor. 

and this is probably the most close knit hobbyist community ive seen. word travels fast and bad reputations are notoriously hard to shake. do yourself a favor and just follow the guidelines set out by others (with experience). be thankful for advice, and stop the relentless questioning of those more knowledgeable than you. i honestly dont know if its possible for you to save face at this point. youve done considerable damage to your reputation.

good luck with your springtails. i dont see anything changing (with the gnats) until you start to listen to the advice youve been given, but what do i know?

james


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Hey Brandon,
One thing to keep in mind is that your water is stagnating because you aren't flooding to feed out (thus replacing water). So even though your cultures are set up almost exactly the same way mine are, yours is not getting "freshened" like mine are. When you set up new cultures try seeding your tank once a week or so from the culture; this will keep the spring population a little lower and it will help the culture stay fresher. Also, how deep is the water in your culture? Since I culture on ABG I only keep about 1/2" of water in there. Also, my method works for me, but I'm am sure there are better ways of doing it. People that have had great success culturing have given you some good tips, my advice would be to pay attention to their recommendations. 
Hang in there dude, you will get it figured out eventually.
-Field


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> If you think about it, springtails (as noted above) sit on the surface of the water (they do not break the surface tension), the larger fungus gnat larvae are below the surface tension of the water. So when you blow across the surface of the water (this doesn't break the surface tension) the springtails are wafted into the new culture leaving behind the fungus gnats.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thanks for clearing all that up but about the calcium bicarbonate...
isn't the point of it to not only as you said let the frogs absord the calcium from the clay through their drinking patches but also for the springs to ingest some calcium and become more calcium rich?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

james67 said:


> ok im going to respond as bluntly and truthfully as possible;
> the problem is that your not experimenting. your just wildly throwing things together (many times against the suggestion of knowledgeable hobbyists).
> 
> you said earlier that you were sorry for offending doug but its because you were a "noob" and didnt know any better. please realize that youve been in the hobby less than a year, that your still a novice and that the only way to advance in the hobby is to take the advice of reputable hobbyists, and build a firm knowledge before you try and reinvent the wheel. i think youve sort of alienated yourself and certainly left a bad taste, by your unwillingness to listen to others advice, and the way you respond to people in a derogatory manor.
> ...


wow I am taking his advice but I have had advice from others so how is it fair to dismiss the advice I have already gotten from others...that is rude.
I said I will make a culture exactly like how he says in his thread yet I am gonna experiment with others.
So how am I not following what he is saying?
I'm going tomorrow to get the turkey pan and some ziploc containers....

I was given a culture that was started with a different method so I continued that method into the larger one. Mostly cause I didn't have the charcoal and all i just had leftover ABG mix and leaf litter.
What kind of person would I be to completely dismiss this person's method
That's like you giving me an idea and me saying, screw you James I'm going with what Roberto told me to do.

I already said if I see gnat maggots I will start a new culture...I already plan to change out the water.
I am using Doug's guide to make a main culture then I am gonna make smaller experimental cultures.

you are reading between the lines and taking what I say out of context.
This is like you telling me hey forget a GS background, go with clay and I don't do it so you confront me about it.
I would never confront anyone for not using my ideas. If they don't oh well.


So far I haven't seen anymore gnats and I have not yet seen any larvae/maggots. So no worries just yet.
Plus I don't have transportation to run out and get everything right now...

So what if I'm trying to make new innovations???
Henry Ford mad the Model T but look how far his idea has evolved...
Do you think he is pissed off cause someone took his idea and made it better?
No! I bet he is proud of how automobiles have evolved and would love to plant his butt into a Shelby GT 350 and haul balls down the road, or even Ford GT for that matter.
I bet he would sit and talk to Carroll Shelby for hours and thank him for doing such great work for FORD.
(btw I'm a Chevy man haha. I just know cars in general.)

I really Hope that Doug isn't thinking like how you explained above. 
I know he is the go to guy about bugs and i respect his ways and I will apply them to my culture as matter of fact I already have to charcoal cultures started. Getting the yeast tomorrow. When these cultures start booming they will be my main cultures for feeding and doing whatever.

I can't just go around and take one person's idea over another it is rude.
I will use his method and the method that was told by someone else and which one I choose is up to me. It could be yours, Dougs's, Ed's or anyone's.

would I get all upset cause I gave someone advice and they decided to use someone else's idea.....um no. 
It's like I'm being demanded to use this idea and no other idea.

Doug is the bug guy and his techniques are used widely but if I want to experiment with other things I can....that's my right.
He shouldn't feel undermined at all, if anything the guy inspires me to want to raise bunch of bugs. He is a great guy and has lots of knowledge and I hope to have as much knowledge about bugs as he does one day, but I will not dismiss another members idea unless I want to do so myself.
Besides the person that showed me this ABG&mushroom method has had great success and why would I turn down a successful method?

Like you will see tons of times in this post.....
*I'm going to use Doug's advice!*
Yet I will still conduct my experiments and I will still use the other person's ABG&mushroom method cause I found out maybe I'm not doing it correctly and I am still learning this method as well. So I will not dismiss this person's advice either.
How you're acting towards this makes me afraid of mentioning the person, cause would his reputation be diminished for thinking outside of the box?

So any person who has an open mind can see I'm not dismissing Doug.
I was brainstorming and mentioning things to him about my experiments.

With all due respect no I have not tarnished my reputation and any grown man can read what I said and read what you said and completely see that you are coming at me for something I already said I was gonna do.
You are coming at me smashing my ideas instead of saying cool man let me know how it pans out.
These are actually good ideas and nothing all that wild about them.
What is wild about them? the fact that it is different?

I'm not here to fight I am here to learn and Doug has taught me a lot.
Even you have James, I hope to one day use your awesome idea of vines coming off the background. Yet did I use it as I planned...no because I felt my tank was too small.
I have learned from tons of people here.
We are all here to learn and be civil but just because one member wants to take an idea and experiment with it and see if he can make it better will not ruin his reputation. It simply means he is an open minded idealist who wants to just goof off and experiment and if anything you should encourage him instead of bashing his ideas.

btw a little history lesson.
Doug and Ed both gave up on me cause I refused to listen to them about mixing animals. I had 6 green tree frogs, green anole, and house gecko in a 10gallon tank.
I know I was a fool for contesting what they advised yet I also didn't have the funds to purchase new tanks and everything. It took a bit but I eventually separated them.
That is a lot different from me trying to experiment with springtail cultures.
That's what i was apologizing for.
I was an idiot for listening to a pet store owner over a more experienced person and over a Zoologist...I guess that's what you would call Ed. Sorry if I'm wrong Ed 
I had no idea of his profession and as soon as I found out these guys knew what they were talking about I went to work.

So this doesn't need to be discussed any futher...I'm sorry but none of your claims or points are valid. Cause I'm not dismissing Doug at all.
I was simply mentioning my ideas for my experiments.
Like I said I hope Doug doesn't think I am shooting him down cause here in a few days everything he mentioned will be done. Hopefully 
Got other things around here I gotta do too.




btw everyone......I haven't seen anymore gnats 
I hope they are all gone.
thanks for all you help and advice!
I greatly appreciate it


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> thanks for clearing all that up but about the calcium bicarbonate...
> isn't the point of it to not only as you said let the frogs absord the calcium from the clay through their drinking patches but also for the springs to ingest some calcium and become more calcium rich?


How is mixing calcium carbonate into the ABG going to do this? I'm being terse since I have discussed this lots and lots on this forum. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> How is mixing calcium carbonate into the ABG going to do this? I'm being terse since I have discussed this lots and lots on this forum.
> 
> Ed


it was on Doug's clay substrate thread.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html#post556288



Ed said:


> The clay provides several different functions..
> 
> 1) the interaction between the clay and the leaf litter is typically very dynamic in the form of biological productivity.
> 
> ...





> 2) clay that contains calcium can have the calcium taken up by the frogs either through thier drinking patch (if there are free calcium ions) or as calcium particles stuck to the inverts or in thier digestive tract.


isn't the calcium carbonate what puts the clacium in the clay 
I was talking about mixing the calcium carbonate into the clay and I was wondering if that's what gives clay substrates their calcium


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> it was on Doug's clay substrate thread.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html#post556288
> 
> 
> ...


I'm trying to get you to use the pink-grey matter between your ears a little... 

If you mix calcium carbonate into ABG, what do you think is going to happen to it? What could keep it from acting in that manner? 

Why would you assume that calcium carbonate is the source of the calcium in the clay? Why would it function in the same manner? 

There are reasons that a lot of research was put into clay as a substrate instead of mixing calcium carbonate into substrates. 

Ed


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm trying to get you to use the pink-grey matter between your ears a little...
> 
> If you mix calcium carbonate into ABG, what do you think is going to happen to it? What could keep it from acting in that manner?
> 
> ...


I didn't assume that calcium carbonate was the sorce for the calcium in the clay....I ASKED......

I'm not going to use it in the ABG for the last time......
I'm going to use it in the clay substrate mixture like it says to...


Pumilo said:


> I was asked a couple times recently for a guide on my clay substrate. I have copied the emails I sent on those, along with a few pics. Want to thank Matt, Brent, Jason, Ed, and others, for all the info they were so willing to share on clay substrates. Here is what I came up with.
> 
> My clay supplier is Mile Hi Ceramics, INC. 77 Lipan 303-825-4570
> You are looking for RedArt and Bentonite.
> ...


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html#post555981



I was just curious if this is where the calcium comes from in the clay substrate so i asked...I never assumed anything.
As you can see below I asked...I never assumed...



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> isn't the calcium carbonate what puts the clacium in the clay
> I was talking about mixing the calcium carbonate into the clay and I was wondering if that's what gives clay substrates their calcium




Ed you're a smart man but you just highly offended me and you say I need to use my brain yet you couldn't even grasp what I was saying and I am the one being accused of being derogatory....really?

Do some of you enjoy being bullies? this needs to stop and it needs to stop now.
I have remained civil and all some have done is taken shots at me and ridiculed me when you have no valid accusations against me.
My words have been construed and taken out of context yet again.
This isn't what I call being civil.

all I wanted to know is in the clay substrate is it the calcium carbonate that makes the clay have calcium enrichment?????
I guess iIlooked over the bentonite tho...so is it the calcium bentonite or the calcium carbonate that gives the clay it's calcium benefits???

I never mentioned using calcium carbonate in ABG.....


wow this is obsurd for you all to act this way towards me and i was told i am at risk of ruining my reputation?
I'm not doing anything except evidently getting bullied and this isn't what I expected from Dendroboard's finest...
don't redicule me when you made a mistake and misunderstood what I said...


here is what was said........I made the parts bold and underlined showing you I was clearly talking about clay substrate and never mixing it with ABG.
At the end I was saying that cause I was thinking you put the clay on top of the ABG.
I never mention at any point ever talking about mixing calcium carbonate into ABG itself




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> yeah I see what you mean.
> So with *clay substrates *they will be dry but once enough water is supplied it with get mooshy and you can't mess around with it?
> I didn't know how resilient the clay was gonna be. I thought it would be more resilient than that.
> I figured when you let it dry it would harden and hold up better or if it's baked. I guess not
> ...



so I was completely misunderstood and insulted....seriously...wtf?
I think you owe me an apology


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I didn't assume that calcium carbonate was the sorce for the calcium in the clay....I ASKED......


Actually no you didn't. I'm going back to your first mention when I flagged it. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Not trying to make you think I'm not listening to you. I just wanna goof around with it and just see how fast they produce in it. mostly to see if I wanna use it in a viv.
> 
> *The calcium carbonate is very great for the springs to be around cause it supplements the frogs with calcium from the springtails....correct?*
> that's the main reason I wanna use clay in a spring culture.
> ...


You reference it here without context that your intending to mix into clay. Your statement gives the direct inference that you are using it with your current springtails cultures (which are ABG mix) and that you want to shift over to clay because it also contains calcium. No where in this post do you indicate that 
1) your referring to the use of calcium carbonate in clay
2) that you were not referring to your current cultures. 

This is what I flagged. After that point you asked about the clay but no where in that post did you correct the inference given in this post. That is what I kept to in my comments. If you don't want to be bothered with making the effort towards understanding calcium and clay then how can you think outside the box for it? 

I made the comment about your brain since you had three people almost in a row tell you to blow the springtails off the surface of the water into the new culture..and it was spelled out for you, yet you didn't get it until the third explination. 

Lets talk about insulting... don't you think that requiring several people to explain it to you, several times over isn't a little insulting to them? That gives the appearence that you didn't listen to what they had to say... Particularly with your previous history with at least two of them. 

If attempting to get you to pay attention and think first is something you consider bullying then you may want to think about that as well. 

Ed


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Brandon,
This thread is becoming ridiculous. I really want to help you out here, but I think you are being too combative. I am hoping that you will listen to what I have to say and know that I am not trying to be a bully. What James and others have said is correct, you are not making any friends with the tone that you have adopted. Honestly I cringe at a lot of your posts. You often call people out on incorrect dart husbandry, but you have no dart husbandry experience...so how can you give advice? Remember when you were asking me about thumbs? I said I couldn't help because I have never kept thumbs. Consider sticking to what you know. You are complaining about being bullied, yet many people consider your responses in many posts to be bullying. I think the best tactic would be to take a step back from the board for a while (take a hint from johnnyrocks) and come back when things cool down a bit. Realize that people have formed their opinion of you solely through your posts, so consider how to change peoples perception of you (the direction of this thread is not a good way to accomplish this). Instead of calling someone out in a thread, just abstain from saying anything. I honestly believe that you want to help others, but when you are constantly pointing out what is wrong people will form a negative opinion of you. Let people with experience (real experience, not just reading threads "experience") offer advice. Take the advice that is given by those with more experience and be happy that people take the time to try to help you (even James is trying to help you, though you may not see it that way). Let me reiterate: I am not attacking you, I really want the best for you. But you have to understand that you are responsible for how people see you...if you were more gracious and less judgmental people would find it hard to dislike you. Make learning your focus, not online fame (I know others have discussed this with you). I'm really hoping that you take some of this to heart and understand that I am trying to help you.
Best,
-Field


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

let me start by saying that people in this hobby are exceptionally nice. many will go well out of their way to assist others whether it be giving info, helping with feeders when someone is in need, helping track down frogs, drastically reduce the price of frogs, etc. etc. 

it seems that many people view this hobby as hostile, but it really isnt.

i have nothing against you personally, you have just been... difficult, on a number of occasions with many members here who have quite a bit of experience. 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> wow I am taking his advice but I have had advice from others so how is it fair to dismiss the advice I have already gotten from others...that is rude.
> I said I will make a culture exactly like how he says in his thread yet I am gonna experiment with others.
> So how am I not following what he is saying?
> I'm going tomorrow to get the turkey pan and some ziploc containers....


your not "taking" the advice though, your insisting that people fight you tooth and nail until you give in. or at least it seems that way.

you have the gnats, and even if you manage to get a clean culture, from harvesting the springs, your going to have a high likelihood of re-contamination from keeping the experiments going. 



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I was given a culture that was started with a different method so I continued that method into the larger one. Mostly cause I didn't have the charcoal and all i just had leftover ABG mix and leaf litter.
> What kind of person would I be to completely dismiss this person's method
> That's like you giving me an idea and me saying, screw you James I'm going with what Roberto told me to do.


im suggesting that you use a culture method that is tried and true, this will ensure that you have plenty of feeders for your animals and lessen the risk of foreign contaminants.

and btw, even in the context you used, "screw you james" is the sort of thing im talking about. this is NOT the way to gain friends or respect here. you'll notice that your the only one lashing out like that.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I already said if I see gnat maggots I will start a new culture...I already plan to change out the water.
> I am using Doug's guide to make a main culture then I am gonna make smaller experimental cultures.


again your very likely to have the problem reoccur unless you start fresh and toss all of your old culturing mediums/ old cultures



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> you are reading between the lines and taking what I say out of context.
> This is like you telling me hey forget a GS background, go with clay and I don't do it so you confront me about it.
> I would never confront anyone for not using my ideas. If they don't oh well.


thats a bit of a stretch since both of those are valid choices that have been used by MANY people. they have both been tested time and again. its more like someone suggesting the use of LECA in a drainage layer, and you choosing to use captain crunch instead.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So far I haven't seen anymore gnats and I have not yet seen any larvae/maggots. So no worries just yet.
> Plus I don't have transportation to run out and get everything right now...


take it slow and drink in the info your being provided with. the only result of rushing in this hobby is failure. if you dont have the proper materials, then hold off until you do. dont just throw something together because you had it laying around. thats not innovation, its cutting corners.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So what if I'm trying to make new innovations???
> Henry Ford mad the Model T but look how far his idea has evolved...
> Do you think he is pissed off cause someone took his idea and made it better?
> No! I bet he is proud of how automobiles have evolved and would love to plant his butt into a Shelby GT 350 and haul balls down the road, or even Ford GT for that matter.
> ...


possibly the worst analogy ever. henry ford despised racing with a passion. in fact until 1966 ford removed itself from racing and only returned because a botched deal to buy ferrari (where enzo requested to retain control of the racing division which ford sought to dismantle) created animosity which ford sought to settle by beating ferrari in a race (the 24 hrs of le mans) that ferrari traditionally dominated. this is when ford designed and built the gt40 mk1. shelby and ford would certainly NOT have gotten along



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I really Hope that Doug isn't thinking like how you explained above.
> I know he is the go to guy about bugs and i respect his ways and I will apply them to my culture as matter of fact I already have to charcoal cultures started. Getting the yeast tomorrow. When these cultures start booming they will be my main cultures for feeding and doing whatever.


cross contamination issues. i wouldnt be surprised if doug was somewhat agitated with the way youve carried yourself on the boards, but its not my place to make assumptions so i wont.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I can't just go around and take one person's idea over another it is rude.
> I will use his method and the method that was told by someone else and which one I choose is up to me. It could be yours, Dougs's, Ed's or anyone's.
> 
> would I get all upset cause I gave someone advice and they decided to use someone else's idea.....um no.
> It's like I'm being demanded to use this idea and no other idea.


yep its up to you to simply take the advice or to continue to "experiment". i could really care less. you need to realize that myself and many others are only responding to your threads to give guidance and to help with problems that we have already experienced. no one is trying to MAKE you do anything, we're trying to ensure that you'll be successful. if you dont want to listen to that it really is your choice.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Doug is the bug guy and his techniques are used widely but if I want to experiment with other things I can....that's my right.
> He shouldn't feel undermined at all, if anything the guy inspires me to want to raise bunch of bugs. He is a great guy and has lots of knowledge and I hope to have as much knowledge about bugs as he does one day, but I will not dismiss another members idea unless I want to do so myself.
> Besides the person that showed me this ABG&mushroom method has had great success and why would I turn down a successful method?


i dont think anyone, myself included feels like theyre being undermined. they just want you to e successful, which IMO is pretty astonishing since youve been pretty rude to people in your responses.




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Like you will see tons of times in this post.....
> *I'm going to use Doug's advice!*
> Yet I will still conduct my experiments and I will still use the other person's ABG&mushroom method cause I found out maybe I'm not doing it correctly and I am still learning this method as well. So I will not dismiss this person's advice either.
> How you're acting towards this makes me afraid of mentioning the person, cause would his reputation be diminished for thinking outside of the box?


no, im sure the method works fine for them, but its not working well for you. this is purely about getting your feeders back on track, it has nothing to do with giving up on anyone or their methods. 




DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So any person who has an open mind can see I'm not dismissing Doug.
> I was brainstorming and mentioning things to him about my experiments.


again theres the passive aggressive attitude. implying, since im the intended recipient of the message, that i'm of a closed mind.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> With all due respect no I have not tarnished my reputation and any grown man can read what I said and read what you said and completely see that you are coming at me for something I already said I was gonna do.
> You are coming at me smashing my ideas instead of saying cool man let me know how it pans out.
> These are actually good ideas and nothing all that wild about them.
> What is wild about them? the fact that it is different?


um i hate to disagree, but you have been tarnishing the rep like its going out of style with your responses. you take a condescending tone with people who, in this area of knowledge (PDF care and husbandry) have a great deal more experience than you.

i cant speak for others but i got started in darts in 1999. im NOT an expert, but i have real life experience, as do many of those trying to help you. 

dont get bent out of shape like i said before people are only trying to help. by insisting that your methods are valid (after being told how to correctly do something) you come across as ungrateful to those trying to help.

whats wild? the fact that your persisting in going against the advice of others, and taking a serious tone when doing so.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I'm not here to fight I am here to learn and Doug has taught me a lot.
> Even you have James, I hope to one day use your awesome idea of vines coming off the background. Yet did I use it as I planned...no because I felt my tank was too small.
> I have learned from tons of people here.
> We are all here to learn and be civil but just because one member wants to take an idea and experiment with it and see if he can make it better will not ruin his reputation. It simply means he is an open minded idealist who wants to just goof off and experiment and if anything you should encourage him instead of bashing his ideas.


the vine idea wasnt mine. not even close. i used the guidelines set forth by others and came out with a great end product. the only reason i was able to do so was because i researched and used the knowledge passed on by those who had more experience than me in that area.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> btw a little history lesson.
> Doug and Ed both gave up on me cause I refused to listen to them about mixing animals. I had 6 green tree frogs, green anole, and house gecko in a 10gallon tank.
> I know I was a fool for contesting what they advised yet I also didn't have the funds to purchase new tanks and everything. It took a bit but I eventually separated them.
> That is a lot different from me trying to experiment with springtail cultures.
> ...


i wouldnt have just spent the last hour replying to you if i didnt want to help. understand that people arent trying to fight you, theyre trying to assist you and make sure that you are rewarded with this hobby. above all else i believe people want others to be able to feel as good about the time theyve spent in this hobby as they have. 

i need to eat dinner and i have work in the morning so im ending it here.
good luck
james


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

fieldnstream said:


> Brandon,
> This thread is becoming ridiculous. I really want to help you out here, but I think you are being too combative. I am hoping that you will listen to what I have to say and know that I am not trying to be a bully. What James and others have said is correct, you are not making any friends with the tone that you have adopted. Honestly I cringe at a lot of your posts. You often call people out on incorrect dart husbandry, but you have no dart husbandry experience...so how can you give advice? Remember when you were asking me about thumbs? I said I couldn't help because I have never kept thumbs. Consider sticking to what you know. You are complaining about being bullied, yet many people consider your responses in many posts to be bullying. I think the best tactic would be to take a step back from the board for a while (take a hint from johnnyrocks) and come back when things cool down a bit. Realize that people have formed their opinion of you solely through your posts, so consider how to change peoples perception of you (the direction of this thread is not a good way to accomplish this). Instead of calling someone out in a thread, just abstain from saying anything. I honestly believe that you want to help others, but when you are constantly pointing out what is wrong people will form a negative opinion of you. Let people with experience (real experience, not just reading threads "experience") offer advice. Take the advice that is given by those with more experience and be happy that people take the time to try to help you (even James is trying to help you, though you may not see it that way). Let me reiterate: I am not attacking you, I really want the best for you. But you have to understand that you are responsible for how people see you...if you were more gracious and less judgmental people would find it hard to dislike you. Make learning your focus, not online fame (I know others have discussed this with you). I'm really hoping that you take some of this to heart and understand that I am trying to help you.
> Best,
> -Field


I was misunderstood and my words taken out of context.
I have remained civil while they sit there and take shots at me.
I never said I was not gonna listen to Doug or anyone.
I said numerous times that I was gonna listen to Doug's advice.
I'm really not trying to be combative I'm just defending myself.
I don't want fame man...no one is gonna get fame from a forum anyway lol.
They are coming at me all the wrong ways.
I was really just talking and goofing off about my experiments and James comes out of left field and just was completely rude with me.
I'm a defensive person but honestly I never intended for my posts to ever sound mean. I was accused of something and I wanted to clear up the misunderstanding.

I understand you tho Field. 
As you know tho you was the one who taught me this method and I thought it would be rude to dismiss your advice. If it works great then it works.
I didn't want to seem ungrateful to you cause you are the one who gave me this cultures as such a kind gesture man and I felt going against your advice would make you think I was being ungrateful. Not that I was ever gonna go against your advice so don't get me wrong.
It is a really great method but as you said I haven't been flooding my culture so the water hasn't been changed out and that's why it probably smells. That could also be a reason the fungal gnats are around.

I would really like to apologize to everyone tho cause I never meant to come across this way but you can't really expect me to just sit here and remain all completely kosher while I kept getting misunderstood. Misunderstandings need clarification and I was just trying to clarify things and I wasn't being rude as people was to me.
It's really hard to even know what kind of tone someone is taking just by words on the screen. If i was talking to you you would here calm sincerity in my voice and no aggression whatsoever.

let me give you a bit of insight on my life...
I wasn't raised right. I wasn't taught how to come across correctly to people and I was always around people who didn't learn how to watch how they come across to people.
I was never provided the discipline and structure I needed.
I was heavily abused and I never even began to recover until I was 21 and I am still trying to reverse the damage my mother has done to me.
It is a disorder I have and I'm hoping you can be patient with me and just give me a chance to clarify things if you felt I have came across the wrong way.
I am on edge about a lot of things like not getting to see my daughter much at all and and being able to be a big part of her life.
Also I have a member here who has continuously been hostile to me in private messages and saying some pretty disturbing things.
I have reported him but nothing seems to want to be done about it.

So I'm sorry if my any bit of aggression came through my messages cause I never meant for them to. I should have paid attention to how I was typing but I guess I was blind to the fact that my messages was coming across wrong. I am working on trying to put things in the right words so I don't come across as a douche. It's hard for me since how I was brought up.
It's like a kid growing up around drugs and violence and he winds up being violent and doing drugs but he needs to understand it's not the way. 
I understood it was time to grow up when I was 21 but the way I come across is something I'm still struggling with.
I can promise you tho I will never mean to come across that way to any of you so if you do see it then please know that I'm really not trying to come across that way. I'm learning how to say things correctly. So please be patient....I would do the same for you.


here is proof tho that I am listening to Doug and not going against him...there is still mushrooms and I will be getting yeast and better containers tomorrow.









as you can see I have already made two small cultures.
I cleaned the containers in 10% bleach solution.
I boiled the charcoal and let it sit to soak up the water all night.
I used distilled water. Water level 1/4 of the culture.
I did everything like Doug's guide said except for the yeast which I will get tomorrow. I will be getting some good containers for when these guys for when they populate enough I should have a few cultures. I may have to dispose of some lol cause idk when I will be getting frogs.
I don't wanna wind up with like 20 cultures haha.
At least I'm getting an early start on my culturing and not waiting last minute.
There will be no cross contamination issue cause I will get rid of the gnats.
Before I even do any experiments.
Like I said I will be using Doug's guide for my main culture.
I found out the ABG&mushroom method is having issues since I don't have frogs I haven't been doing the flooding and feeding so I haven't been changing my water out and it has been stated that the fowled water could be the cause of the gnats more than the mushrooms.
It will all be taken care of I promise.
Even if I have to start from scratch...I have put money to the side to purchase a culture just in case.

Sorry for the misunderstanding everyone and if you thought I was coming across like a douche...it wasn't my intention.


So to lighten the mood here is a pic of my little girl Adonia and hopefully I will be more calm and think more clearly cause I get to finally see her tomorrow.
Hopefully I fix this soon cause I don't want her to learn this social disorder from me. Hopefully you will see her on here one day cause I hope to get her into frogging and I definitely want her to be a part of this forum. 
As you can see it's gonna be a while tho lol. 
She can learn a lot from all of you.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

The Magic Dragon strikes again. This is the same guy who sent me a PM, a very nasty one. Magic WARNED me I could ruin my rep on DB. Who is this Dragon to warn anyone? Why would anyone put so many different animals in a 10g? Im suprised he didnt put the gold fish in with them. I have a Pacman you can add. Petland and Petco are having $1 gallon sales right now. I wouldnt mind paypaling you a few bucks so you can get some tanks and seperate your animals. You should really tone it down, because you come off to be a disrespectful person. You go against senior members with quality information. Man you speak against ED whats wrong with you? Who does that? You want to seem smart, but no one is perfect. For one man to be smart a Dragon has to be dumb, the world works in a + & - state. Your here posting all types of crazy things, just sit back and enjoy the show. Don`t worry before you know it you`ll be a senior member. You`re very confrentational, you should sit down and read some herp books that way you comprehen the hobby a bit better and you don't start arguments with people. You`re not happy in life bro, we are here for you.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> I was misunderstood and my words taken out of context.
> I have remained civil while they sit there and take shots at me.
> I never said I was not gonna listen to Doug or anyone.
> I said numerous times that I was gonna listen to Doug's advice.
> ...


i might have been a little abrasive with my first long post, but there's no reason to make these sort of justifications. im not out to get you or anything. i honestly dont know how to feel here. on one hand you can come across in a way thats very aggravating, but at the same time i want people to (like i said before) get the same feeling of enjoyment out of this hobby as i do, and part of that is feeling like you can interact with the community in a productive manor. (enjoying the hobby isnt necessarily conditional on peer relations but having such a friendly and helpful community there when you need them is important IMO)

im just asking you to look at how your treating others here. im not taking shots at you but sometimes its actually nice to have someone point out when something isnt cool so it can be fixed. think of it like a piece of food in your teeth. i'd rather have it pointed out, than continue to smile with some spinach all in my grill. 

james


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

B-NICE said:


> The Magic Dragon strikes again. This is the same guy who sent me a PM, a very nasty one. Magic WARNED me I could ruin my rep on DB. Who is this Dragon to warn anyone? Why would anyone put so many different animals in a 10g? Im suprised he didnt put the gold fish in with them. I have a Pacman you can add. Petland and Petco are having $1 gallon sales right now. I wouldnt mind paypaling you a few bucks so you can get some tanks and seperate your animals. You should really tone it down, because you come off to be a disrespectful person. You go against senior members with quality information. Man you speak against ED whats wrong with you? Who does that? You want to seem smart, but no one is perfect. For one man to be smart a Dragon has to be dumb, the world works in a + & - state. Your here posting all types of crazy things, just sit back and enjoy the show. Don`t worry before you know it you`ll be a senior member. You`re very confrentational, you should sit down and read some herp books that way you comprehen the hobby a bit better and you don't start arguments with people. You`re not happy in life bro, we are here for you.


This is the guy that has been continuously saying things to me in PMs.
those frogs and lizards have long been separated and I had to get rid of every herp I had when I moved out of my house.
Now he is a good example of someone who doesn't know how to talk to people.
Talking about my co2 generator blowing up on my face, telling me I should eat my viv amongst other things.
I have told you numerous times to leave me alone and you keep sending me PMs so leave me alone dude.
you have no room to talk saying you have a thumbnail that's as small as a pin head cricket.
I have told you to back off.
Me and Pumilo mad that agreement when we was having issues so please just please comply and go you separate way...I have reported you about the disturbing things you have said and you need not to speak to me anymore.

I really hope people don't approve how you just acted towards me
yeah I told you you shouldn't go around saying things like you have a thumbnail as small as a pin head...
That people are gonna dismiss you and think you are full of it.
Still gives you no reason to attack me in PMs and say some of the things you have and no one on here would approve of how you handled it the way you did.

Now leave me alone for the last time and stop sending me PMs.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

you can block other members PMs

user cp
under settings and options:
edit ignore list

james


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

james67 said:


> i might have been a little abrasive with my first long post, but there's no reason to make these sort of justifications. im not out to get you or anything. i honestly dont know how to feel here. on one hand you can come across in a way thats very aggravating, but at the same time i want people to (like i said before) get the same feeling of enjoyment out of this hobby as i do, and part of that is feeling like you can interact with the community in a productive manor. (enjoying the hobby isnt necessarily conditional on peer relations but having such a friendly and helpful community there when you need them is important IMO)
> 
> im just asking you to look at how your treating others here. im not taking shots at you but sometimes its actually nice to have someone point out when something isnt cool so it can be fixed. think of it like a piece of food in your teeth. i'd rather have it pointed out, than continue to smile with some spinach all in my grill.
> 
> james


Yeah well honestly man you had me all wrong lol
As you can see by a recent pic I used Doug's advice.
I was just brainstorming some silly ideas to mess around with when I get bored.
I didn't mean to come across abrasive either.
btw the "screw you James" part I was saying it as if you was to give me and idea or advice and I got advice from a newbie instead of taking yours and it would be like me saying screw you I'm going with Roberto but I would try both of ya'lls ideas instead of dismissing either one. Unless his idea made no sense or I've tried it before lulz.
I would never really say that to you or anyone on this forum haha
It was just an example...nothing more and had no real context, just to be used as an analogy or example.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

This will be the last thing, I post in your direction. Me saying a ¨Thumbnail is as small as a pin head¨, is an ANALOGY, like the one you attempted to use with the cars. One minute, your trying to chew people out, the next you want a hug. You seem to be bi-polar or you are suffering from split personality disorder. You want to start wars and then when you're losing, you call for a truse. Please dont make me to be the bad guy, I'm one of the cooliest people here. I just can't believe the ignorance you display. Remember you PM`d me 1st. I was just minding my business at work, and the Magic Dragon sends me a disrespectful. Sorry guys I did suggest he eat his viv, only because it had so much vinegar (from the co2 generator), I was thinking it would make a great salad with the additon of some grilled chicken chunks.

I want to apologize to all of my fellow members for this post and steping down to this guys level. It won`t happen again.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

B-NICE said:


> This will be the last thing, I post in your direction. Me saying a ¨Thumbnail is as small as a pin head¨, is an ANALOGY, like the one you attempted to use with the cars. One minute, your trying to chew people out, the next you want a hug. You seem to be bi-polar or you are suffering from split personality disorder. You want to start wars and then when you're losing, you call for a truse. Please dont make me to be the bad guy, I'm one of the cooliest people here. I just can't believe the ignorance you display. Remember you PM`d me 1st. I was just minding my business at work, and the Magic Dragon sends me a disrespectful. Sorry guys I did suggest he eat his viv, only because it had so much vinegar (from the co2 generator), I was thinking it would make a great salad with the additon of some grilled chicken chunks.
> 
> I want to apologize to all of my fellow members for this post and steping down to this guys level. It won`t happen again.


and what about talking about my co2 generator blowing up in my face and telling me I'm an idiot constantly and saying I haven't had some vag since I was born and you said a lot of other things as well.
I don't care how upset any of you make me I will never resort to name calling or talking about things harming anyone. 
Yes I mentioned bullying cause I felt bullied to don't nitpick. So therefore I called certain people bullies.
You are a great example of a bully and no matter how much anyone makes you, you should still be an adult and not make fun of or deface their username.

the analogy I made did make sense. I will explain, after this....
A thumbnail is nowhere near the size of a pin head cricket....no where.
This chart here is pretty much accurate, if you're on a computer but even tho if you are on a smartphone should still come up in the same size unless you don't have a smartphone and in that case I guess you can't see the relevance. 









So no there is no comparison to a thumbnail froglet and a pinhead cricket.



Actually Henry Ford would probably love to be in a fast car and he did like racing lol so my analogy was correct....I put the part where my point is proven in bold.
I knew this before I even made the statement/analogy.




> Career
> 
> In 1891, Ford became an engineer with the Edison Illuminating Company. After his promotion to Chief Engineer in 1893, he had enough time and money to devote attention to his personal experiments on gasoline engines. These experiments culminated in 1896 with the completion of a self-propelled vehicle which he named the Ford Quadricycle. He test-drove it on June 4. After various test-drives, Ford brainstormed ways to improve the Quadricycle.[8]
> Also in 1896, Ford attended a meeting of Edison executives, where he was introduced to Thomas Edison. Edison approved of Ford's automobile experimentation; encouraged by him, Ford designed and built a second vehicle, completing it in 1898.[9] Backed by the capital of Detroit lumber baron William H. Murphy, Ford resigned from Edison and founded the Detroit Automobile Company on August 5, 1899.[10] However, the automobiles produced were of a lower quality and higher price than Ford liked. Ultimately, the company was not successful and was dissolved in January 1901.[10]
> ...


source: Henry Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So there was nothing really wrong with my analogy 
I'm a lot smarter than people give me credit for 
You really need to stop trying to troll me B-NICE here in the public threads and in PMs.
Sorry for the late reply...I have been spending time with my daughter all day


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

james67 said:


> you can block other members PMs
> 
> user cp
> under settings and options:
> ...


thanks man i haven't really gotten into the settings of this page.
I have never had a reason to even want to ignore someone till now


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

You're beating a dead horse here Brandon. Just let it go. It's an analogy. They point is they are both small.
A pinhead is to crickets as a thumbnail is to frogs.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i dont want to get toooo far off topic, but your trying to argue this with someone who knows a fair bit about america's auto manufacturers. i got a bow tie tattooed on me so i'd say i have more than a casual fascination.



DragonSpirit1185 said:


> source: Henry Ford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> So there was nothing really wrong with my analogy
> I'm a lot smarter than people give me credit for
> You really need to stop trying to troll me B-NICE here in the public threads and in PMs.
> Sorry for the late reply...I have been spending time with my daughter all day


here's some info for you from ford's website

on the 999:


> Henry Ford’s name is part of the legend of these cars, but in fact, during the time they were winning races and setting records, Ford owned no part of them. He sold his share to Tom Cooper after the first test session, which was a failure, about two weeks before the Winton race.


more on ford's attitude towards racing:


> "In 1913, Henry Ford tried to enter Kulick and the Model T record car in the Indianapolis 500. However, race officials required 1,000 pounds to be added to the car before they would accept his entry. Ford told them, "we’re building race cars, not trucks" and pulled out.
> 
> Shortly after that, Ford Motor Company withdrew from auto racing altogether. Ford cited dissatisfaction with the sport’s rules and classifications... Also, race cars at that time were dangerous and fatalities were common, which could generate negative publicity.
> 
> Ford Motor Company did not embark on another "factory" racing program until the 1950s"


this means that ford did not start back into racing until years after henry ford's death. it wasnt until the 60s that ford made a real return to racing. and in that case it was purely out of anger towards another auto manufacturer.


> In the spring of 1963, Ford reportedly received word through a European intermediary that Enzo Ferrari was interested in selling to Ford Motor Company. Ford reportedly spent several million dollars in an audit of Ferrari factory assets and in legal negotiations, only to have Ferrari unilaterally cut off talks at a late stage due to disputes about the ability to direct open wheel racing. Ferrari, who wanted to remain the sole operator of his company's motor sports division, was angered when he was told that he would not be allowed to race at the Indianapolis 500 if the deal went through since Ford fielded Indy cars using the company's engine, and didn't want competition from Ferrari. Enzo cut the deal off out of spite and Henry Ford II, enraged, directed his racing division to find a company that could build a Ferrari-beater on the world endurance-racing circuit.


james


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

james67 said:


> i dont want to get toooo far off topic, but your trying to argue this with someone who knows a fair bit about america's auto manufacturers. i got a bow tie tattooed on me so i'd say i have more than a casual fascination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if it wasn't for him disliking the rules and it being more safe then I'm sure he would have stuck around.
Today the rules are fair and safety is very good so he probably wouldn't have a problem with racing today.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

well I have fixed the fungus gnat issue in the ABG spring culture.
I haven't used mushrooms in there anymore and I changed out the water.
I do now see them in my viv cause I put some mushroom pieces in there to determine if the bugs in there are springtails.
So I'm pretty sure the mushrooms is the cause of the fungus gnats.
Are the fungus gnats safe for the frogs to eat?
oif they are then I will continue to use the mushrooms in the viv and when I get frogs they will have their tank already seeded with springtails and fungus gnats.

so here is a little update on the springtail culturing....
I found out the coffee filter idea doesn't work lol well it does but wow the water takes forever to go through it.
This is what I wound up doing...I flooded the culture and then when I went to pour the bad smelly water out I just blew towards the culture and blew the springs back so only water poured over the edge.
Now the ABG culture is fine and not smelling anymore.
I have not seen anymore gnats since I stopped using mushrooms and switched to yeast and changed out the water.

So after the water was changed out I decided to take half of the springs really large ABG culture and put it into a charcoal culture. 
So I followed Pumilos how to thread and did it all exactly as said.
Except for the type of containers. I paid $2 for my large ones vs $4 for Kroger brand. For the small starter culture sized ones I use these noodle bowls that I have of course bought to eat then I reuse the bowls for the small cultures. but of course I scrub the crap out of them and I also sanitize them with bleach water. This isn't to save money but to recycle these bowls instead of throw them away. I hate being wasteful!
so here are the containers. 

























Anyway.....so it was a long day of busting up charcaol. I wound up doing about 3 gallon size bags(1 used for the cultures) and I still have a 1/4 bag of the lump charcoal left. I think I got them to the right sizes
















I'm set on charcoal for a bit lol
I"m going to use these smaller fragments for future use in ABG mix. They are all the width of your pink or smaller.









so here are pics of the cultures so far. btw I do have one ziploc container that Field gave me that I made a small culture in.
here is the large culture and no i didn't fill it all the way up with charcoal cause I don't want these guys jumping out every time I open it. Might put a tad bit more in there tho.

















this is my noodle bowl culture and I tell you what these guys love it apparently cause in no time at all it is fully populated and is pretty much ready to be made into a large culture. So far using this bowl is fastest I have seen them populate.
when I first open it you can see them everywhere then they scatter and they are even all over the sides of the culture.
















with the concave ov the bowl I just fill that bottom part with water and where it is tapered I never see any of the springs fighting the water and trying to swim to the charcoal. 









In the large culture every time I look there is springs foating and having a hard time getting to the charcoal...they are spending more time floating then making me babies 
Maybe this is why my noodle bowl culture has populated so fast lol.
I put the same amount of springs into the ziploc culture and noodle bowl culture and more has produced in the noodle bowl culture than the ziploc culture and the ziploc culture is half the size noodle bowl culture's lol.
So I'm liking these noodle bowls A LOT 

and here is the little ziploc culture

























and here is my yeast








I chose to go with the store brand instead of buying fleischmann's yeast.
fleischmann's yeast was $4.50 and the store brand $2.30 so I'm gonna go with the store brand. Has the same ingredients anyway.


So other than using different containers and a different brand of yeast I did listen to Pumilo and I used his guide.
Next time don't jump to conclusions and think that I'm not listening.
More people on here should try to recycle things they use in their lives and try to use them with the hobby. Saves you money and helps save the environment  

just a few questions...
are the charcoal pieces the right size or do they need to be smaller?
How do you know when to put the starter cultures into the large cultures...when you see them cover every bit of the charcoal?
How long do you use the same culture before you trash it and start fresh..are they used indefinitely as long as they are producing?
Do you have to redo the charcoal after a certain point due to the waste from the pringtails or do they even clean up after themselves?


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