# need tips on keeping broms alive?



## DeeVas (Jul 2, 2005)

Im having more trouble keeping broms alive than the actual frogs. my vivarium is completely closed off. im planning to make a new one and decided to put a screen on the top portion would that help to keep the broms alive? What are the basic tips in order to keep broms alive? Thanx


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## droseraman (Jun 17, 2004)

if the leaves are curling they need to be misted more. the other problem could be that they are to wet. im sure Antone will chime in.


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## DeeVas (Jul 2, 2005)

i think they always become to wet because the bottom portion of the brom keeps rotting. As soon as i pull on it a lil the whole brom falls apart


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

We need to know what broms you're working with and how you've put them in your tanks. Likely you have epiphytic broms and they are rotting as you've planted them in substrate that does not allow for air circulation around the roots. Generally, the whole plant needs good air flow, and tanks with no screening have no air flow. Good light is also needed, and I've had decent luck using two daylight deluxe flourescent tubes... doesn't color up the brighter broms, but keeps them happy.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

I'm no expert, but maybe they're not getting good enough light.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

If they are rotting that bad it sounds like poor airflow and too much misting. If your tank is sealed like you say, you probably don't have to spray but once every few days. Get some photos or post some more info about how your broms are situated in the viv.


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## DeeVas (Jul 2, 2005)

all my broms have rotted away i wanna make a new viv and just have a ton of broms. the first viv i have is completely sealed off. I mist it about everyother day and the brom is placed in the corkbark with toothpicks and the roots are nowhere near any water. i just figure out does there have to be water at all times in the brom because i kept spraying water into it. im a newbie with this broms any help would be appreciated thanx everyone


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Just fill them once and don't worry about it. You were definately misting too much. A little bit of ventilation is what you need. So build your next one with some ventilation and I bet your plants and broms will do much better.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Misting a lot is a good thing.... with correct ventilation. Your lack of ventilation is what got them....you need to set up your vents (and possibly look into using computer fans) so that air moves from one side of the tank to the other... the broms can take very high humidity air but it has to be MOVING. Either circulate the air in there and cut down on misting, or set up vents in the tank and mist a lot to keep the humidity up (bringing in drier air from outside the tank will dry out the tank and cause you to mist more than in a closed tank where the humidity isn't going anywhere).


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## alifer (Oct 24, 2005)

My viv is sealed, but has built in air circulation and the neo broms are doing great. I don’t mist though, I use a sports type water bottle to gently squirt viv water on the broms to keep them full.
I bought my broms from Antone and I would highly recommend N. rubrifolia. This particular brom looks great, holds a fair amount of water for a small Neo and has done very well in my viv. The pups have even colored up brighter than the parent plant. 
-Rick


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## DeeVas (Jul 2, 2005)

lets say i choose not to use computer fans because that would be impossible for me to set up..lol would the broms survive if i had an inch of screen on the top portion of the viv or is that not good enough?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

The inch of screen will certainly help. Another cheap option for adding circulation is to place an air line under the substrate along the front glass. Add some airline Ts to the buried airline so that there is a T every inch. If you use gravel, or LECA, you can leave the open tops of the Ts just under the substrate. If you use something like soil, then leave the open tops of the Ts just above the soil. Attach an air pump to the airline and you have instant circulation. It is a good idea to have a control valve on the air pump as this method of circulation can dry things out too much.


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## SusannahJoy (Jul 3, 2006)

sorry to hijak a bit, but all my broms are planted in the soil and are doing fine. does this mean that my soil could be too dry for my frogs? i mist everyday, sometimes twice, and have screen covers.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Susannah,
Have you checked your humidity? Do you have dart frogs in a tank with a full screen top? Most people find that it is impossible to maintain a decent level of humidity with a full screen top. The tank doesn’t have to be a soaking wet swamp but you want your humidity to be at least 70%. If you have darts and they are not hiding all of the time than your humidity may be O.K. If you don’t see them that often then low humidity is the likely culprit.


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## DeeVas (Jul 2, 2005)

the tank is fully closed off and yes i have an imitator in the tank. i think the next tank im gonna have an inch of screen


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Okay--now let's get busy*

Lissen up:

All the above is okay. Bromeliads need:

1) Humid air WITH good ventilation. This means that screening 1/3 of the top will work; grow the "broms" (I hate this nickname) on that side;

2) When mounting, moss is usualy not necessary, although neoregelias seem to stay small without it; 

3) Do NOT use regular tap water! A tank bromeliad's leaves are its functional "roots," where it absorbs! They can be sensitive to flouride, metals and salts. If you have good tapwater, let it sit for 24 hours; if your water is hard, use bottled water;

4) Plant where appropriate! 

--Earth stars (Cryptanthus) are always terrestrial;
--As a rule, Guzmania and Vriesea tolerate more humidity than the hardleaved broms;
--Tillandsias should be mounted; grey ones need more light and ventilation than do green ones.

Some good ones:

--Cryptanthus sp, C. bivittatus, C. 'Ruby,' C. "cafe au lait;'
--Guzmania 'theresa,' G. sanguinea 'small form,' G. lingulata;
--Vriesea bleherae, V. carinata, V. 'julie,' V. 'retroflexa;' (I have no luck with V. racinae  )
--Canistropsis burchelli (for big tanks, but EASY);
--Neoregelia ampullacea (and its cultivars), N. olens;
--Tillandsia aeranthos, brachycaulos, bulbosa, caput-medusae, ionantha, 
stricta.

HOPE THIS HELPS.

Respectfully,

The Lord of the Epiphytes


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Oh lord of the epiphytes, I have to disagree with you on two points. :wink: 

First, there are quite a few people on this board who have beautiful Crypts, which are mounted epiphytically. While they are true terrestrials, you can bend the rules in a vivarium. Cryptanthus are very tolerant plants.
Second, while it may be true that Guzmania and Vriesea can tolerate a lot of humidity many people have difficulty with the Home Depot hybrids rotting away under viv conditions.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> Oh lord of the epiphytes, I have to disagree with you on two points. :wink:
> 
> First, there are quite a few people on this board who have beautiful Crypts, which are mounted epiphytically. While they are true terrestrials, you can bend the rules in a vivarium. Cryptanthus are very tolerant plants.
> Second, while it may be true that Guzmania and Vriesea can tolerate a lot of humidity many people have difficulty with the Home Depot hybrids rotting away under viv conditions.


I completely agree with you here Chris. Especially on the Guz and Vriesea points. Vrieseas make horrible terrarium plants. While they love humidity, they need REALLY good airflow and will rot very fast. Guzmania are similar but seem a tad more tolerant.

I've had Vreisea "Julie" or whatever its called, last for a few months but it just slowly rotted away. Same for a few others.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Terrarium bromeliads--some clarification*

 Okay Guys:

1) Cryptanthus: Not to be too pedantic, but you guys are making a mistake here. As Harry Witmore poiints out, "epiphyte" is not synonymous with "air plant." I have seen people attempt to glue crypts to wood a la tillandsias--it cannot work. 

:roll: People who try to grow them epiphytically--in a pocket of substrate media--will succeed for a while. They are bromeliads with tough leaves, after all. But what is a while? It would be analogous to pointing out a 70 yr old who smokes 2 packs a day, and saying it can work. Anecdotes are not conclusive evidence (in science, public policy or horticulture). In Brazil, crypts grow in leaf litter, on fallen rotting logs, in rock crevices and as terrestrials in well-drained soil. But they NEVER grow attached to wood like tillandsias or tank bromeliads. There are better, and more authentic, long-term choices.

2) Vriesea and Guzmania: VIRTUALLY ALL BROMELIADS REQUIRE MOVING AIR. They are not good candidates for swamp or bog tanks with a humidity so high one can grow emersed Aubias, Cryptocorynes or Java ferns. The only way this works if one can ventilate one part of the tank (In my terrarium, the left side is screened, the right covered with saran wrap. So I made a motif: bromeliads on the left with other neotropical plants; a pool in the middle with African Anubias and ferns; Asian humidity lovers (e.g., Macodes, Cryptocorynes, Begonia luzonensis, Selaginella on the right. Humidity ranges from 60-65% on the left, to 80-85% on the right. 

Why do Home Depot broms do poorly? I wondered this myself--Home Depot Aroids are no better. :? After YEARS of frustration, the boyz at Black Jungle hipped me to the fact that it is MUCH better to start with cuttings or pups than established, "finished" plants. A plant with a root ball established in a pot will adjust poorly to the damper, more restrictive conditions of a terrarium. Specifically, it is the roots that do not adjust. I have had much more luck planting cuttings, or recently rooted cuttings, and letting the root system grow into the new substrate. (The logic is similar to buying a houseplant; a plant in a 4" pot adjusts better to YOUR home than a field-grown 3-4' tree in a 10" pot.)

The only bromeliads I have no success with in my tank are Tillandsia geminiflora and T. pruinosa (probably too warm) and Vreisea racinae (rotted after 14 months; should have stuck the stolon in cork bark, not in a substrate). I grew a "julie' pup to 13" across in 8 months, stuck in a hole in a cork log. I let the substrate get dry--water tank broms in the cups, that's what it's there for! If you find a mature guz or vriesea you need to put in your tank:

1) Select the smallest one, preferably not in bud (the plant needs to spend energy adjusting, not reproducing);
2) Strip off much of the root ball, especially if it has perlite;
3) Rinse it thoroughly.

But none of this will matter in a saturated tank with 93% humidity! These are bromeliads, not Club mosses! (Jeez, do PDFs really need it that high?)

And finally, be careful as to water quality. 

Till then, make mine hylids.  

The Groundhog

References:
The Bromeliad Society of Australia, 1989. Growing Bromeliads.
The Bromeliad Society International, 2005. Bromeliads: A Cultural Manual (2nd edition).
des VosJoli 1994. The Lizard Keeper's Handbook.
" 1996. The General Care and Maintenance of Popular Treefrogs.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: Terrarium bromeliads--some clarification*



Groundhog said:


> Okay Guys:
> 
> 1) Cryptanthus: Not to be too pedantic, but you guys are making a mistake here. As Harry Witmore poiints out, "epiphyte" is not synonymous with "air plant." I have seen people attempt to glue crypts to wood a la tillandsias--it cannot work.


You'd better hope I don't find the picture of Jordan B's viv...

I think Chris's main point was that this is being grown in a terrarium. I didn't believe it myself until I saw it. Crypts are ugly anyways... :lol: 

I've not had much trouble at all with Neos and Aechmeas in terrariums. I sell a couple of Vrieseas but I don't push them like I do the Neos. Neoregelia species and hybrids are just the best for terrarium care. Situate them epiphytically, give them good light and a bit of circulation and you'll have success. I've done a few terrariums (okay, a LOT) and I've had maybe 2 Neos not do too well in the long run. I don't see whats so difficult here.

I've found a new terrarium bromeliad that I am really enjoying. Racinea crispa. What a neat little bromeliad. Not a tank brom but an excellent terrarium subject. Doesn't get too big (at least the ones I've seen) and seems to enjoy the humidity and light levels.

Why reference books that have nothing to do with growing plants in PDF vivs?? I grow broms outside very differently than I do in the viv. I've got a couple of bromeliad expert friends that have been growing them for 20+ years and its funny b/c they have no clue how these plants act in terraria. They speculate but thats pretty much it. I guess you can apply things from growing them outside to terrariums.

Lets see some pics of your vivs Groundhog. They sound interesting.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Groundhog,

I don’t disagree with most of what you are saying, but when you sign your fourth Dendroboard post as the “Loard of The Epiphytes” you have to expect some abuse. :wink: Many of this board’s members have been tinkering with “epiphytes” since we were children. In my case that makes 30 some-odd years.

With respect to roots having to adapt, I whole-heartedly agree. I’ve recently started growing some of my Phalaenopsis in semi-hydroponic conditions. I would never have believed that Phal roots could grow down into the water layer and remain healthy. It seems that roots adapt as they grow and that once they have grown they don’t necessarily like change.

I have a nice Vriesea racinae that has been on my plant stand for over a year now. It is destined to go into the 55 gallon viv that I’m working on right now. It is in dirt now (that’s how it came) I’m wondering if I should strip all of its roots when I mount it in the viv. Maybe I should skip it altogether? Then again I will be pumping dry air into the viv across the front glass. If I mount the racinae up front maybe it will have enough air flow to survive. V. racinae is really a nice looking plant.

As far as crypts go, some of these hybrids are just bulletproof. Some can take being wet all the time, as long as they are in a loose medium. I’ve seen some mounted on wood that are just spectacular. I wish I could find the picture that Diane (C’est ma) posted of hers. In a viv, many times it is more a function of light than perfect soil. Given the choices of mounting a crypt on a branch, with a little sphagnum, in bright light, or planting it, in loose soil, in the shade, you are probably better off sticking it on the branch. This may only apply to PDF viv conditions as the crypts that I have don’t look great after prolonged dry periods.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Greetings homies*

Hey Guys,

Did not many of us--or at least some of us--grow up into X-men, Star Trek, Star, Wars, Tolkien, etc;? I will have to trademark "Lord of the Epiphytes"--it belongs somewhere  

I hope it is clear that my own expertise is epiphytes and hylids, not pdfs. Why? The tanks get WAY too warm in the summer. I included the references to be helpful; all these books give solid info on growing bromeliads, mounting, and/or plants in animal terraria.

I am beginning to notice a paradox: You guys keep pdfs and are trying to grow bromeliads--which they often utilize in nature. Q: Do pdfs really NEED 80-90% humidity? Many broms need 50-60%; some guzs, green tillandsias and Pitcairnia tabuliformis want a bit more. But I know of NO bromeliad that actually requires 85-90%. 

I am intrigued by Chris' idea about V. racinae. I would not strip off all the roots; just cut them back. You could also keep a bit of the root ball and wedge it in a tree fork. But it does bear repeating that the tank broms should be up near ventilation. They don't grow with Java mosses, Java ferns or Liliopsis--TOO moist for broms. 

Believe it or don't, I grow Crypts in moist conditions--I planted rootless pups,and let them grow roots. It is like your Phal, Chris. They form white roots rather than typical brown "hairy" roots.

To me, very few things (maybe Pam Anderson, the Blues Bros are objectively cooler than any frog sitting in a tank bromeliad. I know that with hylids it is doable.

Interestingly, it even works with Leptopelids, Rhaocophorids and Australian Litoria. Theseguys ain't even neotropical yet they will also sit in bromeliads.


Other broms:

Yes, Racinea works, if you like it  

Forgot to suggest:
Catopsis species--not gaudy, but they are small and have tanks
Cryptanthus beuckerii--a different form See it at fcbs.org
Tillandsia cyanea and of course, Vriesea 'splenreit'---both good plants if you have the space.


ALso, one gripe Ihave with neos is how they react to fertilizer--they begin to flare.

I would also suggest that y'all avoid any neo cultivar with 'Fireball' in the parentage. Fireball needs ful sun, and it is usualy dominant. 

My favorite smaller neos are any of the ampulacea cultivars, dungsiana, olens, pauciflora; compacta works if like all green...

Lata G's


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Addendum*

Just to clarify--none of you guys are using regular potting soil mixes, I trust? Learned this one the hard way a few years ago... :roll: Man, when I think of the plants I can grow now that I use coir with orchid bark. THis is especially important in warmer tanks.

Btw--Hylids rule.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: Greetings homies*



Groundhog said:


> ...I would also suggest that y'all avoid any neo cultivar with 'Fireball' in the parentage. Fireball needs ful sun, and it is usualy dominant.


I think about half of the broms I sell/use have Fireball in the parentage and they do great. I am 100% positive that they do not NEED full sun. They do look great growing in it but most certainly don't need it. I think I see where you're coming from though. I've never seen a brom drop color faster than a Neo. fireball. I think the fastest is 2 days. Going from blood red to light green. Thankfully, they get it back after some acclimation time in the viv. One of the best water holding broms for terraria is Neo. Red Bird x Fireball. Has great shape and size (not too big) with great color.

Neo. punctatissima is a great parent and a great species on its own for its size and influence in hybridizations. Some of my favorites have the red form as a parent (Neo. Ritzy Red).


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Let us not forget N. Lilliputiana X N. Fireball. A good many of us have this cultivar from T&C and in my experience it does well in vivaria. Mine is under two 23 Watt spiral fluorescents. While it is not bright red, it has many red spots and is pupping well.

Groundhog, I didn’t mean to diss your sources as a grad student studying biology and education, I value sources. I’ve also learned to value anecdotal observations though. Science is not immutable and anecdotal observation is often the fuel of change. 

As for the “Lord of the epiphytes” I’m gona have to take a jab at you for that once in a while… :wink: welcome to the board by the way.  

N. Lilliputiana X Fireball on the left. This shot was taken a few weeks ago. I'll try to get a new one today.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Chris your brom's name is Neo. Chiquita Linda.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Greetings*

Hey Chris,

Anthro major/biol minor here--but I shall probably do grad school in International Relations (a challenging way to apply evolutionary psychology).

Is that an ampullacea cultivar on the right? And is that, by chance, a Haraella odorata (orchid) in between the two neos? I have very little luck with orchids--except the jewels and some angraecoids. I believe the tank to be too warm, especially at night. 

Q 1: What kind of lighting do you use? Compact flourescents? How close are the plants? Do you mean to tell me that you have tried samll vrieseas and guzmanias in those spots to no avail? I find that quite surprising. 

Q2: I am tring to figure out how to post pics in the gallery. Harry W. sent me some instructions, but he assumes me literate :? I have them in my e-mail program. If I am unsuccessful, can I send these to you to post? Or is that a big hassle/production? I just thnk that my peroration might seem more plausible if you guys saw the finished product.

Thanks,

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*1) Neoregelia punctatissima (2) Humidity AND Lighting*

Antone,

You do recommend Neo punctatissima? Gee--both Herb Plever of the BSI and Michael Kiehl (Michael's Bromeliads) cautioned against it--saying I could not provide enough light. Now I be's :? 


Everybody:

2) You guys need to clarify something for me--how much humidity to pdfs need? I thought it did not have to be saturated (remember, I keep lizards, hylids, rhacophorids, hyperoliids but no pdfs).

I think that a big problem for many hobbyists with small enclosures is the oldest one in da book--that is, how to raise humidity WITHOUT saturating the substrate. For myself, I place saran wrap (tm) over half the tank. But my tanks are not verticals, so I have some surface area to play with. This time of year, the humidity ranges from 55-60% on the left to 70-75% on the right. 

ALso, do any of you guys use compact flourescents?(I use four Exoterra 2.0 tubes.) Do these "power compacts" produce heat? Is a color temp of 6700k enough, as opposed to 10000k? 


Thanks,

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Groundhog,

I am growing the yellow banded form in a terrarium right now mounted up high where the humidity is a bit lower and the light is intense. Its doing great and even sending out a pup. Whats more is that the brom is mounted to the side of the tank with a suction cup. 

Old Picture...










Here is a picture of Neo. Ritzy Red (N. fireball x punctatissima Rubra) that I grew under spiral compacts in a 29 gal...










PDFs don't need 90%+ humidity at all. I keep mine in the high 70's low 80's humidity wise. I also let my vivs get a little dry every couple of days. I'd say down to about 50% humidity or so.

I use the spiral compact fluorescents on most of my vivs and they work great. They do raise the temps a bit so I suspend them a few inches above the viv. With the a/c the vivs stay at about 80 F at the very top and about 72ish F at the bottom. Just about perfect.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Antone, 
Thanks, I never realized that N. Lilliputiana X Fireball was Chiquita Linda. Here is a shot from today. I think it has colored up a little. Pardon the wet glass.









And here is Ritzy Red.



















Groundhog,
That is Neoregelia ampullacea 'Midget' The orchid that is between the Neos is Phal lobii. That branch has three orchids in view. The highest is Dendrobium concinnum. Phal lobii is in the middle and there is a Pleurothalis rowelii at the bottom left. The Pleurothalis is the most likely to do really well. The others are experimental. I would not have put Phals in a viv prior to another Dendroboarder showing me a picture of one that her son had in a viv for over a year. This viv actually has Phal lobii and Phal gibbosa. Both of which are tolerant of warmer and wetter conditions that most other Phals.

For lights, I’m currently using two 23Watt spiral compact fluorescents in domed reflectors. The bulbs are probably 8” above the glass top of the tank, 16" above the Neos. I’m not thrilled with the color of the light. As you can see from my photos, it is very yellow. So far most of the plants are doing O.K. though. A few are showing some signs that they could stand more light. Since it is winter now, I may try upping the wattage, and getting cooler colored bulbs. 

No, I have not tried vrieseas or guzmanias in this viv. Aside from V. racinea, I don’t particularly like vrieseas or guzmanias. Previously I mentioned that other board members have had trouble with them. I just don’t like them very much. 

As far as posting pictures goes, you have to have them hosted somewhere. I use my own site, but many people use photobucket. Dendroboard has some hosting capability as well. Once the photo exists on a webpage you just copy the photo’s address into your message, highlight it, and click on the img button.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Groundhog,

Here are a few full tank shots.
It has quite a bit of growing in to do. It was just planted a few months ago.




























Frogboy13, 
Hopefully some of this is helpful and we haven't completly hijacked your thread.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Chris,

Your lights seem to be really high off the viv. Can you get a light meter measurment just below the lid? I bet you're barely getting 1500 foot candles. The light is yellow probably b/c its below 5000K. Did you not get the Daylight ones? They are 6500K and look great.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Antone,
The bulbs are pretty far away form the broms but I was concerned about heat issues during the summer. While winter is here, I will probably try some higher wattage and better colored bulbs. I’m thinking about purchasing a T5 fixture for the 55 that I’m setting up right now. Even with this, admittedly, dim light the broms seem to be doing fine. The Chiquita Linda was placed in this viv as a parent and a pup. Both parent and pup have since produced a new pup. The “ Tiger Cub” is pupping and so is the ampullacea tigrina. The Chiquita Linda and the Ritzy Red are also redder than the specimens that I have on my sun porch.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I must point out one thing that groundhog said in his initial post that has been grating on me ever since (and not the "lord of epiphytes" bit... Harry will always be that for me ) is that PDFs are associated with bromeliads in the wild... this is simply not true. Of the whole family, only a small percentage use broms. Outside the genus dendrobates, I can honestly only think of maybe 2 species that use them... within the genus, only about maybe a 1/3 of the species have a POPULATION that uses broms... rarely the whole species. Broms aren't needed in tanks, we just tend to use that as an excuse to have them.

Man, my lights are so pathetic compared to you guys lol. I have my plants on a rack that has two 48" daylight deluxe fluorescent bulbs. Nothing too special... keeps all my plants happy (almost completely epiphytes, with the exception of jewel orchids), including the broms I've gotten from Antone and a couple other sources, tho I will admit none of them have colored up, the few that actually would. I'm not into plants outshining my frogs tho 

I think a big thing to think about with some of the broms in question has to do with the fact that the majority of tanks have a serious lack of airflow, soggy substrate that will rot out everything except plants that like wet feet, and/or lighting issues. Even having one of these off will skew the plant's needs in the terrarium, to flat out killing it. You'll see a lot of odd things going on in frog tanks due to initial lack of understanding, to people trying to compensate for one factor being off.

One of the biggest problems I've come across is keeping the substrate moist but not soggy. This tends to rot out most things, like crypts, which is why people tend to mount them in pockets rather than on the substrate where they would rot - turning a terrestrial in the wild into an epiphyte in the terrarium. At least... where the adult plants would... then pups off the parent plant would get established on the ground in the right spots, but for reasons mentioned before. Most people just do not have the patience, knowledge, or both to get cuttings from terrarium plants and grow them up, or tank the time to acclimate the plants to the different needs. I've used a large number of the Home Depot plants in the terrarium by acclimating the adult plants to the conditions. Its not that the plants are inappropriate for the terrarium, its just that they were grown to be low humidity houseplants and sticking them in high humidity tanks doesn't give them the time to modify leaves and such to the point where they would thrive... instead they die off.

Racinae just likes it drier than even most PDFs like, which is why it doesn't do well in terrairums. It needs to have low humidity (like room humidity, which is why they do well as houseplants) and great air flow.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Racinae just likes it drier than even most PDFs like, which is why it doesn't do well in terrairums. It needs to have low humidity (like room humidity, which is why they do well as houseplants) and great air flow.


You're referring to the Vriesea right? B/c there is a genus in the bromeliad family called, Racinaea (the spelling is differnt but sounds the same).


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yes, the _Vriesea racinae_ species, not genus. It's a great terrarium brom under the right conditions, being small, holding a ton of water for it's size, etc. You just need to keep it high and in an area with really good air flow with lower humidity (mid range rather than up near 100%). Right under an air flow vent with ambient room humidity would be good. 

The only time the ones I had did well was in a tank with a screen lid, only 1/3 covered with cling wrap (in this case a tank for _E. anthonyi_ going thru a dry spell). When the tank became mostly covered, the plant rotted, even tho I was doing it slowly like I normally acclimate houseplants for vivarium use... this implies that its not lack of acclimation but rather very low tolerance for high humidity, low air flow.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Yes, the _Vriesea racinae_ species, not genus. It's a great terrarium brom under the right conditions, being small, holding a ton of water for it's size, etc. You just need to keep it high and in an area with really good air flow with lower humidity (mid range rather than up near 100%). Right under an air flow vent with ambient room humidity would be good.
> 
> The only time the ones I had did well was in a tank with a screen lid, only 1/3 covered with cling wrap (in this case a tank for _E. anthonyi_ going thru a dry spell). When the tank became mostly covered, the plant rotted, even tho I was doing it slowly like I normally acclimate houseplants for vivarium use... this implies that its not lack of acclimation but rather very low tolerance for high humidity, low air flow.


I experienced the same. I have 2 growing outside right now in a mini greenhouse. I fill them up when the water evaporates and thats about it. Nice plants but not the greatest for vivs unless you can supply them with just the right conditions.


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## brian_ (Sep 16, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> The inch of screen will certainly help. Another cheap option for adding circulation is to place an air line under the substrate along the front glass. Add some airline Ts to the buried airline so that there is a T every inch. If you use gravel, or LECA, you can leave the open tops of the Ts just under the substrate. If you use something like soil, then leave the open tops of the Ts just above the soil. Attach an air pump to the airline and you have instant circulation. It is a good idea to have a control valve on the air pump as this method of circulation can dry things out too much.


Just a quick question, if you are pumping in all that oxygen into a sealed tank... wouldn't the oxygen outcompete carbon dioxide to the binding of rubisco and hence, end up negatively affecting photosynthesis?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Only if you were pumping in pure oxygen. In reality, the o2/co2 ratio inside and outside the tanks wouldn't be all that different, and wouldn't affect the tank negatively. I'd still prefer a vent, even a tiny one in a back corner, to help create air movement from the bottom of the tank to the top.


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## brian_ (Sep 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Only if you were pumping in pure oxygen. In reality, the o2/co2 ratio inside and outside the tanks wouldn't be all that different, and wouldn't affect the tank negatively. I'd still prefer a vent, even a tiny one in a back corner, to help create air movement from the bottom of the tank to the top.


Ah... true.

Stupid me, I didn't think of it like that.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Yea, 

I’m definitely not pumping O2. I have a linear piston pump in my fish room. It is very quiet and it pumps a ton of air. So I figured I would experiment with pumping this into the viv along the front glass, to see what would happen. The tank actually has a vent hole drilled in the upper right corner, so there is flow up the front glass and over to the right rear of the tank. If I open the valve that controls the front glass air, it still takes a few hours to clear the glass. After that only the upper left and right corners still hold on to some condensation. I don’t usually leave that valve open all the way, as it dries out the tank a little too much. The water feature is also air driven. Another valve controls air flow to an airstone that is at the bottom of a cylinder behind the pond. Air and water flow up the cylinder and into the pond. This valve is wide open, so quite a bit of air also enters the tank through this point. This air, however, should be much more humid, as it has just bubbled up through a layer of water. The substrate in the tank is PrimeAgra, a type of LECA. The water in the pond is not contained. It flows through the granite blocks back into the PrimeAgra. There is also an overflow drilled in the back. This allows me to add new water to the pond and force some of the old water, held back in the PrimeAgra, to overflow.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Lol, i feel stupid listening to yall....of course we only just learned the finer details of the processes of photosnthesis lol....I'm a noob at plants, but I guess that leaves a new venue of study open, right? lol....anyway to broms, anyone had any luck with those red-centered ones you can get at lowes or walmart? Mine got huge without basically any care and looks awesome. No vents, just some water and a couple compact flouros. Its already got two pups coming off it and one is beginning to color up....Easy, and cool looking brom


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Got a picture? Sounds like Guzmania but that is one of the ones that we have been saying people are having trouble with. Maybe you are just suffering from beginner’s luck.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

True...all i got is this bad pic, I'll have better ones soon...
EDIT: it is guzmania. Guess I am "suffering" from beginners luck. Truthfully they really are easy though...for me anyway...:roll:


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

You know now that I think about it, my very first ever 10 vert had 2 Guzmania in it and they actually did okay. They outlasted the Vriesea at least. Maybe the smaller varieties are worth a try.


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

There is a trick to acclimating the "finished" or potted cheap-o plants to moister conditions. Take any random tank it will fit in and holds water. Keep it in its pot and put some washed packing peanuts with mesh over that and some mulch on top of that (like you were making a viv). Set the potted brom on top of that and moisten axils slightly at first, and add plenty of water to the surrounding substrate of the pot. Use a glass lid for all this. Keep w/ plenty of light. Keep adding water (opening the viv every day for air) to the substrate of the phaux-viv until it is very humid and up to what a dart tank would be like, or more. Never water the dirt, just the axils. Once you feel it has started to grow a bit and it is used to the humidity move it to the viv, but the key is to not use a pot/stolon hole. Have a hole that gives it about half an inch or more on both sides and just put the plant bare-rooted in that way with a _small_ ball of dirt under the roots and loose mulch to cover the empty space above the roots. This allows for ventilation, FF's to die around and fertilize, and easy watering. Just water the base or axils well once a week...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Some thoughts on adaptation, and the square-cube law*

"What we have here is failure to communicate."

Well, not quite, but I was thinking about the comment that many bromeliad growers no nothing about vivaria. Well, that is not always true (A fairer comment would be that a professional herpetologist does not necessarily know how to keep lizards, nor a botanist how to grow plants).

1) What must be understood is that for most horticulturists, the focus is only the plants. For them, the goal is "cultural perfection"--how good a plant can look in a pot. TO get them to understand that a one-sided sinningia or codonathe growing off a cork slab is nature's intent means next to nothing--they might concede it is interesting, but not as gorgeous as a "show plant." 

For me, of course, a bromeliad ain't a bromeliad w/o a frog in it. (In fact, I believe that if you need to put plants in pots, that is why God made African violets--I grow several genera epiphytically as houseplants). But this does not mean that literature or formal observations have nothing to teach. I believe that ANY organism we try to maintain--including groundcovers and feeder insects--should be thoroughly researched. It can only help to understand what the organism is actually adapted for, what it is designed to do.

For example, many people seem unable to get it through their adamantium skulls that not all "tropical" plants like it warm. As such, they are shocked when something dies--not realizing that the term "Africa" is meaningless; "temoerate woodland Africa" gives you something to work with (did I get this from Mervin F. Robert's "Your Terrarium?"). Some of you may be familiar with Guzmania sanguinea or G. musaica--two plants that cannot be grown in Florida.

Lemme tell ya a story about da Bronx, NY. This year, I took a few plants representing five genera outside on March 28th (no frosts were predicted). They were: Begonia Xwithlacoochee; Codonanthe devosiana; 2 Cryptanthus; Vriesea sucrei and a V. erythrodactylon hybrid; and; 
Rhipsalidopsis gartneri (Easter cactus). Some cool days, COLD nights followed. SO, I did not water when it was cold, and who made it? Everyone but the Cryptanthus! Yet, I lost my prize V. sucrei in the August heat wave--a plant from the Brazilian restinga tolerated 37F better than 103f. Because, it many not ever get 103 where it comes from! 93f EVERY day, but never 103. Even the ventilation of being outside and water in its cup could not save it. 

2) Which leads me to a question: Why this "movement" towards 10gal vertical tanks? Is it simply a space consideration? This reminds me of the trend in aquaria to "nano tanks,' whatever the %$#^ that means.
Oh it can work--until it doesn't, and the reason is the square-cube law. You know, the relationship between surface and voumeand how it affects all living systems. For example, a good aquarist will tell you that a 20long can actually hold more fish than a 29high--because its surface area--where oxygen exchange takes place--is much greater relative to its volume.

Now, it is absolutely true that many species inhabit smal microclimates, including some amphibia. But pdfs? I am not suggesting that they must all be kept in trio's in 55s--not at all. But you can accomplish much more with more total volume, because you can create more internal surface areas! As such, I would think a 29high to be great tank here--same footprint as a 20long (30"). You have enough height to create different plantings (terrestrial, raised, mounted), and create small territories (because of the broken lines of sight). Less stress! Also, in a smaller area like a 10gal that is kept moist, a pathogen can rip through it much quicker (that square-club law again). 

I have nothing against 10gal tanks--for armadillo lizards, or a garter snake, house snake, fire skink, fire salamander, Budgett's frog, single leopard gecko, pair of banded geckos, trio of Bombina; But for a terrarium where one is trying to create a small microclimate? Gee, you may, in the long term, be fighting some simple physical laws. I know that there are at least a couple of salt water hobbyists who would concur...

As such, I wonder how many of you have had problems with vriesea or guzmania in larger tanks (20h or larger), where you could ventilate part of the tank. Look, my goal here is not to proselytize for vriesea; I know that neos are the most popular with terrarium keepers. I also realize that the tall spikes of some of these plants are problematic. But there is a big difference between maintaining any plant for a few months and watching it bloom and pup. Let us grow five Guzmania ligulata pups and five neo pups in equally moist, shady conditions, and the guzs will like it more. As for what the pdfs want---hey, I get it! But if a bromeliad expert--and we are not all fools, charlatans, creationists or Republicans--states that Cryptanthus should be terrestrial, guzmanias above that with green tillandsias, and neos up top with grey tillandsias, well, it was based on sound botanical evidence and horticultural logic. There was no good #%[email protected]## reason :evil: to assault me with anecdotes. 

In my experience, there are five factors that make a tank work: adequate space, lighting, proper substrate, good water--and varying photoperiod according to the seasons. For the animals, there are only three more: start with healthy stock; don't overcrowd; gutload your food.


I was, believe it or not, only trying to help. I was not competing with anyone.

Goodbye.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

^^^ Wuhhh??? Okay well it was nice discussing plant care with ya.

Oh and 10 gal verts are amazing...

:mrgreen: 



















Can anyone figure out what set him off?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

DB gets it's own personal ABB  
(pm me if you care to hear the story behind that comment).


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

*Re: Some thoughts on adaptation, and the square-cube law*



Groundhog said:


> " There was no good #%[email protected]## reason :evil: to assault me with anecdotes.
> 
> In my experience, there are five factors that make a tank work: adequate space, lighting, proper substrate, good water--and varying photoperiod according to the seasons. For the animals, there are only three more: start with healthy stock; don't overcrowd; gutload your food.
> 
> ...



O.K. so you jump on a board, and start telling people the way it is, and then you get upset when people politely inform you about exceptions? If you think you were attacked, try asking a question about putting as many brightly colored frogs as possible, in a 10 gallon vert! 

Personally, I’ve agreed with almost everything you have said, and I did welcome you to the board. Did you think I was being sarcastic? DB discussions often go the way the previous one did. I didn’t see any attacks. On the other hand one could easily take your use of the word anecdote to be elitist and disrespectful of their experiences.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Explanation*

I was not specifically angry at you, Chris. I am not, in fact, angry--more confused, maybe even a bit hurt. We are all products of our experiences: I was never addressed in this manner on epiphytes.org or caudata.org. NEVER.

You say people are trying to point out "exceptions? WHY IS THAT A GOOD GOAL? Why do people take LIVING THINGS and, rather than do their best to make the organism happy, try to bend the animal/plant to their whims?

We all know about: 

--roosters with 20' tails;
--goldfish--natural bottomdwellers--with upward facing eyes;
--people who get pythons or pacus and attempt to "control" their growth;
--" who insist on trying to grow succulents--no, cacti-- in north windows;
--big dogs in small apartments;

The list goes on--so why is it more logical to attempt to put a FEW colored frogs in a small space??? 

Now, I don't see what is wrong with someone responding to a query: I thought I started this by offering sound advice to someone who I perceived to be a novice. Ever read any of des Vosjoli's books? Is his a diplomatic or commanding tone? Clearly the latter--anf a lot of herps are alive today because of it! 

Instead, I am bombarded with, "but you're wrong about..." Like the exchange about Cryptanthus. THe problem with ANY social interaction is that they are often self-selected samples. I have asked a couple of bromeliad experts to join me here; they will not, for the same reason a biologist does not speak at a fundamentalist church--they have nothing to prove, and don't want to be dissed. If I marched 15 guys from the BSI on here to discuss this, would you address them in the same defiant tone?(Hey, I am well aware that most creationists couldn't care less what Richard Dawkins thinks of them, either. )

I NEVER SAID that ALL pdf's need bromeliads. I have tried to make clear that I keep hylids and hyperolliids. (I am not even an expert on neos. But I do know bromeliads, and I am an expert on tillandsioids.) I was attempting to give advice based on experience AND research. As I said, when I am on caudata.org or epiphytes.org, the rsponse has been something like, oh, gee I dunno--"thank you." 

Which brings to the two ten gal vert photos:

They are very nice tanks. 

But how old are they? Is there enough room to accomodate growth patterns? Is it possible to water the broms w/o saturating the substrate? 
Is it possible to light these tanks adequately w/o overheating? What is the animal density in these tanks?

Any data on their long term viability? How long do they go? 

These are questions--not meant to insult or discourage, but to clarify thought.

(Hey--I wish somewhat had done this for me when I would overcrowd my 10 gallon fish tank  . 

SERIOUSLY--and I do not mean this at all sarcasticaly--do you guys read the articles and manuals as "suggestion" books, to be followed at one's whim? Is there anything I have said that contradicts Philippe Des Vosjoli, Rex Lee Searcy, Richard & Mike at Black Jungle, or Dick Bartlett? Anything?!?

I am not comparing myself to them, but I have studied ecology and evolution; am a former president of the New York Herpetological Society; have been doing this for 20 years (and have admiited failures, btw); am now a respected horiculturist and horticultural lecturer in NYC. I am also one of few people to breed Corythophanes cristasus in the U.S.

But I never claimed to know more about Dendrobatids than you guys. I perused the board, and I see questions about bromeliads--so I figure I .can offer some help to what I took to be kid (it is a statistical fact that the overwhelming % of amphibian keepers are boys, averaging 15). As I said, I was only trying to educate--I even offer further reading. On reflection, that may not make sense HERE, because most 15 yr olds probably cannot afford pdfs!

Instead, I am bombarded with a line of argument(s) that essentially said "Neos rule/Vriesea & Guzmanias suck." Don't get me wrong; we are all entitled to our tastes (I, for one, can admit I'd take Jennifer Hudson to Beyonce--for real. But I would not dis those who demur  ) But when backed into a corner, I defend evolution, big booties AND vrieseas.

Chris, what if one your students said--after getting good grades--"but I still don't believe in evolution because Mom & Dad say your wrong?" Yes, you should be polite--but to attempt to educate at this point is not to dis anyone--it is simply to educate.

Also Chris, regarding exceptions: Should I take an herb or supplement just because some Joe Maharatz says it works for him? Am I dissing him when I say "the peer reviewed journals do not support your claim?" You know that when scientists attempt to do so, they are always called 'arrogant."

For me, you guys seem almost too specialized. You seem to be into pdfs and plants that go with pdfs--that is it. I don't sense a general interest in tropical ecology, epiphytism, niches and their applications (e.g., how dendrobatids and hylids can live in the same area because they occupy different niches.)

I feel like I just walked into a Betta Club wanting to talk about ALL anabantids.

It may not in the end be a matter of right v. wrong; just that I am a generalist and you guys are specialists.

Have fun.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Groundhog,

You are very long winded. Goodness. Anywhow...

I am going to try and respond quickly b/c I am just not that long winded and you asked too many damn questions.

First off, you need to realize techniuques change everyday. We are not giving exceptions, we are giving ALTERNATIVES. There are multiple ways to reach the same goal here.

Your points about the goldfish and big dogs in small apts. is moot in my opinion b/c you're keeping tree frogs and such locked in a small glass box. Whats the difference?

The reason your bromeliad friends won't join you here is b/c they have no experience (most likely) growing bromeliads in terrariums setup for poison frogs. I wouldn't go battle with a gun I've never used before. Yes, their experiences are valauble and most likely they won't be wrong about things but in the end, these plants act differently in sealed up glass boxes than they do outside in bright light, air movement and fertilizer.

You bet your ass I would discuss this in the same defiant tone to anyone from the BSI. Its not disrespect but I don't care if you've been growing plants for 2yrs or 20 yrs, that doesn't mean you can't be wrong and if I think you are, I will tell you. I have no problem questioning these people or arguing. Thats how we learn. I'm wrong all the time but I learn in the process.

I think you have KeroKero's comment about the broms and PDFs thing a bit confused. She was not aiming at you but just saying that in general, people in this hobby think that PDFs have to have them, which they don't. We just like the way they look and its convenient b/c the frogs will use them if they are present.

I sorta wonder about your comment about being an expert on Tillies. I've never heard an expert call themselves one. Hmph... The people on caudata.org or epiphytes.org may not have alternatives or arguments for you which is why they probably just say, "Thank you." We do here though. :wink: 

Those pictures were taken just after setup. The one I still have (sold the 1st one) is doing great and has grown in nicely. I have 1 D. imitator intermedius in it that calls all day long. The viv stays at about 82F at the top and about 74F at the bottom. Well within the range the frogs appreciate. The Peperomia prostrata has grown all over the ground, the Anthurium clarinervium (which I knew from the start was going to outgrow this thing) is doing excellent. Hasn't grow much foliage (typical) but has lots of roots. The bromeliads have pupped and I fill them with rain water every time I spray the viv down. I have lost some color in the lower placed bromeliads but they are still very much alive and well.

The manuals, articles and books I read I take as suggestions, yes. Like I was trying to say, John Doe might grow Vriesea philippo-coburgii in 2700 footcandles, potted with food and it will probably do great. I on the other hand would grow it mounted to driftwood in about 5000 footcandles with ZERO food. It would look great that way too. There aren't always just ONE way to do things here.

My Vriesea opinion is that they are horrible terrariums plants if they are going to be put in the average persons PDF viv. That entails ~90% humidity, sprayed every day, low light (<1500 foot candles) and hardly any ventilation. So in that sense, yes the do suck. Granted Neos won't like it much more but at least they have a better chance. 

So we seem too specialized eh?? Not all of us just focus on PDFs and plants that go with PDFs. I personally have a very mixed collection of plants ranging from bromeliads to succulents. I love Peperomia, ferns, DISCHIDIA, orchids, mosses, Stapelia, Ficus etc. Here's a little sample of one of my walls outside...










You'll find many of us have other interests here too.

What you walked into was a group of people that have experience in this hobby and started tossing about your knowledge on how to do things. Personally when I see someone come on this forum with less than 25 posts and start "Telling it like it is" I get a bit set back. You pretty much set yourself up for it. You really didn't give an intro to yourself or anything. Just came out with, "Do this, do that." So yes naturally, we questioned you. Wouldn't you do the same if I went on caudata.org and did the same thing?


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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)




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## hoyta (Jan 18, 2006)

*HEHE*

HAHA, J/K


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Dude, lets just take a chill pill everyone....Back to tips for keeping broms alive, and kingsnake.com-like jumping on one another, opinions, and "facts" aside, just give what you think about the topic. We pretty much hijacked this thread, so lets get back to tips on broms shall we? Sounds good, yay! 

BTW, prolly be talking to you soon or in the spring Antone, gunna need some neos for a 30-35 gal hex I'm going to shape over the winter 8)


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I take one daily.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*My reply*

You guys did not "question" me. You attacked, and I attempted to defend myself. I used no profanity and leveled no threats ( I wonder if the character who put up the "owned" post would have the temerity to do it in person...)

I saw a thread that asked for "tips on keeping broms alive." Gave what I thought was simple, sound advice. Again, I was only attempting to help.

I insulted no one. I put down no one. But it is as if it's like some kind of fraternity or family, where I crossed some boundary of propriety. 

My points were these: 

1) There are many things that work for a while. It does mean they will work long-term. Small tanks work for a while. But the risk of crashes and territorial battles are greater. That is the point I was trying to make about the potential for overcrowding--of plants or herps-- in small enclosures. Why not a 29high?

2) I do ask questions. But if I ask: why Peperomia puteolata in a 10gal tank next to Begonia thelmae, that is not a dis. The Pep gets much larger and needs a drier substrate (I would opt for P. rotundifolia there).

3) I stand by my comments about Cryptanthus. There are better, more authentic choices for mounting.

4) As for neos: I do have to fertilize my tank (Dynagro), as there are epiphytes that seem to need it. But I find that neos flare and start to look like daisies when i do (A.J. Calisi confirms this observation). I understand the utility of neos, cause of their cups. Guzmanias don't have the same cups, but that does not make them--in my experience and according to many professionals--bad terrarium plants. Because I have more open tanks, I have no problem with Vrieseas (except racinae).

5) But why the one-upsmanship? That is what I do not understand. I even signed my first post "Respectfully yours." I wasn't competing with anyone, just trying to give advice to someone i thought was a novice. 


That is all I was trying to do. Yet you guys hurt someone's feelings, and find it funny...

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: My reply*



Groundhog said:


> 1) There are many things that work for a while. It does mean they will work long-term. Small tanks work for a while. But the risk of crashes and territorial battles are greater. That is the point I was trying to make about the potential for overcrowding--of plants or herps-- in small enclosures. Why not a 29high?


To be honest, a 29 high is not much better. These plants can outgrow almost any size viv. I trim my vivs. Here is the first 29 I ever did. I did not trim it and look what happened.










Granted I'll admit that viv was my terrarium plant experiment tank. Still though I'm sure you see my point.



> I do ask questions. But if I ask: why Peperomia puteolata in a 10gal tank next to Begonia thelmae, that is not a dis. The Pep gets much larger and needs a drier substrate (I would opt for P. rotundifolia there).


I don't have Peperomia puteolata next to any Begonia thelmae but I think you might be asking about the Pep. argyreia. Again, I trim. Is there something wrong with trimming? I also hand spray so I have no problems keeping the roots of different plants drier in the same viv. The actual species of P. rotundifolia is hard to obtain. There is one that you can find easily that is misidentified as that species but I think its P. trifolia. I think the fact that you would opt for that species is purely different taste. I do have prostrate growing Peps in other vivs though.




> But why the one-upsmanship? That is what I do not understand. I even signed my first post "Respectfully yours." I wasn't competing with anyone, just trying to give advice to someone i thought was a novice.


I'm not sure who's trying to one up you but I am not.  I'm just trying to illustrate my points while attempting to educate you on how some of us do things with our terrariums (which are different than yours).



> That is all I was trying to do. Yet you guys hurt someone's feelings, and find it funny...


I don't find it funny. Apparently some do and I hope that they apologize for it later. I think you have different taste and opinoins though. It seems you're not used to hearing someone challenge your "authority."


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## Dartfrogfreak (Jun 22, 2005)

Yeah i might add a pic of my viv which has beiong going for 2 months now and doing great many have red colors which have no problems keeping it up under my terrarium lighting,










Ive not gotten them to throw out a ton of roots yet but they are pupping and keeping their color quite well

Neo Flaming lovely lost all its color within 2 days but has regained most of it after a month or so


Also Id like to add that the perplue bromeliad near the top is a 'Superball' hybrid and ha its doing great



Id also like to add that Ive never really had success with Guz or Vriesia in enclosed vivs
they have done great for me in screen topped vivs tho


Todd


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## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Lol, haven't tried Vriesias (yet) but as you can see my guzmania is doing great, I like the colors too. I'm going to do a hex the size of yours soon w/ neos and one guzmania and a couple pieces of malay. drift wood, any cultivars of neos yall think would look good? I'm not planning on putting in any frogs so no tad-capable broms are not a total must-have...


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Clarification*

Well Antone, you were one of the people who I felt attacked me... 

1) First, I meant the tank BELOW the one with the Pep argyria--is that not Pep puteolata (next to what looks like a Hoya)? I find that plant deceptive--it chills for a few months, but once it establishes, it is a monster!

As for your 29experimental tank--I like THIS tank. The only thing I would change is to use a smaller aroid on the left (and if the goal is all-neotropical,why not a Spat or mini-ANthurium?) In my tank, I used to use Hemigraphis alterna; unlike many Acanthaceae, it doesn't really get leggy--it just takes over the tank--goodbye :lol: (Q: Where I have seen that tank before?!?)

2) I guess if I was to go back, I would simply state that I don't believe feel that many bromeliads ae good bets for log term status in totally enclosed tanks. My question---and it is just a question-- is:

--Why totally enclosed tanks?

or

--Why not other, more damp-loving plants? E.g., Anubias, Begonia prismatocarpa, or Selaginellas. I can think of very few bromeliads that like moist, maybe: Crypt beuckeri, Pitcairnia tabuliformis, Tillandsia puctulata, maybe T. biflora; (and most that like it damp like it cool, as you know)

I don't think it uncool to state that the more ventilation, the more bromeliad variety one can utilize.

Do any of you guys have access to the bromeliad displays at the Bronx Zoo (in the Reptile House, not Wild Asia :wink Those enclosures are sweet and they are $%#@% huge! 

3) Authority? Well, when I was a smoker, I never argued with my doctor  It is interesting you mention this. For years, I have been in people's homes and attempted to explain that--the aroids should be in the north window, the succulents in the west window. Well, it was explained to me over and over again, that it would upset the design (For those who don't live in NYC, I can assure ya that there are aspects of Will & Grace that are NOT a stereotype :wink Thought I was giving good advice about LIVING things, not furniture...

Psych students explained to me that I don't understand something about the human brain--it ain't always rational--what I was encountering was simple territoriality.

All Iknow is, if you guys think me arrogant, I ask that you visit an orchid show  But when one of the biddys charges me to declaim "DO NOT GROW ANGRAECOIDS ON TREE FERN, IT WILL KILL THEM"--I simply say, "thanks."

Here is my MOST important point: I fully understand the pitfalls of the "argument from authority"--this is right because Professor Peperomia says so." Credentials do not, in fact, always equal merit. But we are dealing with living things here. It is like health--there can sometimes be little room for learning mistakes (e.g., drugs, unsafe sex . Did not many of us kill things as we learned in our teens? I, for one, would have been grateful for some of the Barron's and AVS husbandry books--and so would some herps, fish and plants. 

Sometimes, I feel that some hobbyists believe that "experimentation" is some intrinsic rite of passage of learning the ropes. Do we really have the right to do this with living things? I am not a PETA person, but I think we should be responsible to all our charges.

I apologize if anyone thought I was putting them--or their neos  --down

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: Clarification*



> Well Antone, you were one of the people who I felt attacked me...


Is a disagreement an attack in your eyes?



> First, I meant the tank BELOW the one with the Pep argyria--is that not Pep puteolata (next to what looks like a Hoya)? I find that plant deceptive--it chills for a few months, but once it establishes, it is a monster!


That is Pep. puteolata in that viv but there is no Begonia thelmae in there. You said... "_I do ask questions. But if I ask: why Peperomia puteolata in a 10gal tank next to Begonia thelmae..._"

Pep. puteolata does get pretty tall but it also grows a outward (or down if hanging) too. When it reaches max height, I will snip it and plant it elsewhere. I'm all about propigation.



> As for your 29experimental tank--I like THIS tank. The only thing I would change is to use a smaller aroid on the left (and if the goal is all-neotropical,why not a Spat or mini-ANthurium?) In my tank, I used to use Hemigraphis alterna; unlike many Acanthaceae, it doesn't really get leggy--it just takes over the tank--goodbye :lol: (Q: Where I have seen that tank before?!?)


Had I had Anthurium bessie at the time, it would have gone on that side. Too bad... It was a nice viv though. I got some great growth from it. You may have seen that viv on the epiphytes list on Yahoo.



> 2) I guess if I was to go back, I would simply state that I don't believe feel that many bromeliads ae good bets for log term status in totally enclosed tanks. My question---and it is just a question-- is:
> 
> --Why totally enclosed tanks?
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying here. My vivs are not totally enclosed but for those that have mostly sealed tanks, the Neos have the best chance at survival and those people envision bromeliads in their vivs. I think for the most part, these people have realized that ventilation is important and we're seeing a lot of the new vivs taking that into consideration. Its still less air movement than you probably have though so we stick with the Neos.

People use Anubias, Begonia and Selaginella in thier vivs too. Right along with Riccia, Java Moss, Java Fern and other moisture hogs.




> All Iknow is, if you guys think me arrogant, I ask that you visit an orchid show  But when one of the biddys charges me to declaim "DO NOT GROW ANGRAECOIDS ON TREE FERN, IT WILL KILL THEM"--I simply say, "thanks."


Whom ever told you that should see this picture I took at ABG...












> Here is my MOST important point: I fully understand the pitfalls of the "argument from authority"--this is right because Professor Peperomia says so." Credentials do not, in fact, always equal merit. But we are dealing with living things here. It is like health--there can sometimes be little room for learning mistakes (e.g., drugs, unsafe sex . Did not many of us kill things as we learned in our teens? I, for one, would have been grateful for some of the Barron's and AVS husbandry books--and so would some herps, fish and plants.
> 
> Sometimes, I feel that some hobbyists believe that "experimentation" is some intrinsic rite of passage of learning the ropes. Do we really have the right to do this with living things? I am not a PETA person, but I think we should be responsible to all our charges.


Don'te get me wrong, I like books and use them for reference but I really feel the best way is through experience. I don't think its good to kill plants but do you eat vegetables? How about meat? I know thats a bit out of the realm of the discussion but I'm just trying to make a point.

I don't think we're killing plants though. I just think peoples plants probably don't do as well as they think they should. Yes some do rot and whatnot but for the most part, we just want them to look like they do in the books and magazines. Hard to do sometimes.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Greetings--some questions*

The point I was attempting to make about care comes from youth; like many of us, I started out as an aquarist, and made some mistakes (especially pushing carrying capacity). I am glad to see better info now--it saves the lives of living things. As I said, I am no PETA person, but I hate it when I see nice plants (or pets) used as ephemeral decorations. That is species-wide arrogance.

Is that Angraecum distichum? From the pic, it looks like Ron mounted it on cork bark, though. I want to try that one!

You know, I have the hardest time propping peperomias (and hoyas) ; if I try to do so in the tank substrate or an enclosed bag, they rot; in open pots they dry out. The only luck I've had is enclosed, barely moist, with bottom heat. 

Q#1: I do understand that not all dendrobatids are bromeliad symbiotes. So what is the appeal? Is it their utility as hydrating stations, or simply aesthetic? As a hylid keeper, it is primarily functional, but it amazes how any small frog will sit in a tank brom immediately. 

Q#2: Do any of you guys try tank tillandsias (e.g., biflora, dyeriana, leiboldiana, punctulata, wagneriana in your terrariums?

Q#3: Also, why the emphasis on hybrids? Do you find these easier? Many BSI folk swear that hybrid guzs and vrieseas are, in fact, more adaptable to horticulture than many species. 


Q#4: How do you guys fertilize?

Q#5: Dischidias: I grow ovata and pectinoides as "houseplants"--mounted with a bit of sphagnum, letting them twist up the wires. What do you think of these as terrarium plants? I am afraid they will grab everything in sight and make maintenace (cleaning, pruning impossible!

Thanks,

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*"The Living Vivarium"*

Question for the Group: 

I am sure that some/most you read Rex Lee Searcy's column in Reptiles. Your opinion? I, for one, found his tone to be rather absolute--on lighting and substrates especially. And I, for one, appreciated it; my tanks took off when I started following his advice about substrates. In fact, I would so far as to say that he speaks ex cathedra--he talks, I listen.

Is there anything he wrote that you guys disagree with?

G


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

1) I like them because of the colors and patterns, and I suspect that is a common interest of many pdf keepers. 

2) Some people do, but they're not super common. I don't use them because they serve no purpose and I don't find them particularly attractive. 

3) I think the reason hybrids are emphasized is because those are the plants where we can get good colors and patterns in a small package, and sometimes even with deep axils. 

4) Frog poop and dead flies. 

5) Can't comment.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

5) Dischidia ovata yes, D. vidalii (pectinoides) no. D. vidalii will rot unless you can keep it in a dry spot. It likes the humidity but doesn't like the moisture. I have one in that 10 gal with the P. puteolata and its doing okay. Not a ton of growth but it has not rotted or anything. I still wouldn't "recommend" it. D. ovata is weird. Outside it hates a lot of moisture but in the terrarium, it puts up with it quite well. I can't figure that one out yet.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*1) Dischidia ovata; (2) Neoregelia q.*

1) About D. ovata: This does not surprise me. I have found that some plants will take on different morphs in or out of a terrarium--not onlyin terms of roots, but in terms of leaf structure (thickness He gesneriads Codonanthe and Nematanthus are like that as well; outside they form thick leaves and should not be overwatered; in the tank, they grow "soft."
(I recommend Codonanthe sp., as they do not seem to need as much light; both will grow mounted).

I also suspect that it may have something to do with temperature--in the summer I freely water my dischidias, but in the winter, barely. Maybe it is as simple as the warmer it is, the more wetness it wants.

2) Hey--is Neo punctatissima rubra actually a form of Neo ampullacea? Any thoughts/experience on this plant?

Thanks,

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I grow Codonanthe mounted in filtered sun. Seems to be doing great.



















I may try it in one of my next vivs. Not sure yet as I have a crazy list I want to try. I do have a xCodonatanthus in a terrarium and its doing well so far. Only been in there a couple of weeks but I've got new growth and no rotting.

In the summer months, I water my Dischidia every day. Sometimes twice. These are the mounted ones and so long as the moss on the mount dries out, I water them again.

Neo. punctatissima Rubra is a species as far as I know. Just the red form. I have 1 plant of the species but its outside. No terrarium for it yet.


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## tyler (Feb 23, 2006)

While some are talking about guzmania and vriesa sp. not doing well, my viv is filled with them. The top has two 1"x9" vents across the top, which is why they may be doing well. On the contrary though, I mist pretty heavily once in the morning and evening; the viv has a dryout period in between each misting. It contains 2 guzmania, and 5 vriesas - which are growing like crazy, at least 3 pups per plant. It also contains 4 neos. In the past however, I found neos to be one of the more challenging broms to grow, lol. Lighting is 96w PC 6500K.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Tyler your viv is still young. The test will be time. I wonder how they will look in 2 months.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Terrarium Bromeliads--some thoughts*

I am with you, Tyler--you go, boy! :wink: 

Again, I do not dis neoregelias--they have three fine features:

--water-holding;
--no tall spikes;
--good color.

I am still puzzled, though, by their overwhelming appeal.

First, as I understand it, most dendrobatids do not live high up in trees with neos; rather, they do live closer to the ground with soft-leaved plants. So why not some tank tillandsioids (the soft-leaved sub-family)?

Second, it is absolutely true that the test is time. But what length of time? Eight months? Three years? As we all know, different plants grow at different rates--we cannot even generalize within families!

See, as a hylid keeper, I can tell you that ventilation was always part of the equation--even with red eyes (which I do not keep, btw; I have no need to wake up at 3 am to lookt frogs  ) Comparatively few "tree" frogs like to be wet; Hyla heilprini (Blue-toed tree frogs) and Theloderma (Mossy Frogs) come to mind.

According to the formal lit--and in my own experience--a totally enclosed small tank would be for swamp amphibians, e.,g, some mantellas, Bombina sp., Floating frogs, Rana erythrea, certain salamandrids or plethodontids;

I do think that an important consideration is mature size. Very often, I see nice tanks and then take a second look: the plants are too big. Oh, maybe not when you are looking at it, but you just know that the Alocasia or Dracaena or bromeliad or Calathea is going to outgrow the tank. Some may like this, as it gives them a reason to occasionally tinker, but I pefer to pay attention to mature sizes...

I guess that, for myself also, I think that ometimes people cram too much variety into small spaces. THis can be visually unsettling and it is unnatural.

Here, I call GrassySpeak on his own mantra: 'Why not do more with the species you have?" I think this can apply to plants as well as animals. In my tank, I have TWO Cryptanthus bivitattatus (the species, not 'Ruby'), TWO Guzmania "theresa," TWO Tillandsia funckiana, a whole patch of Episcia ' silverskies;' I agree with the the guys at Black Jungle when they say that repetition looks better than one of everything. 

My next question is for Antone and whoever else whats to reply.

--G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Play that fiddle George. :roll:


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Diversity in the Terrarium*

Okay, I admit it--I'm a liberal :shock: 

Antone, a few days ago you showed a 29gal setup, which you called an "experimental tank." 

Now consider Tyler's set-up--what I like about BOTH these setups is the potential for diverse niches. They both provide a variety of perches AND break up lines-of-sight. Like Des Vosjoli, I like diverse communities of animals--as long as one sticks to one species in each group. 

For example, in each tank, one could have 2-4 small dendrobatids (of one species, of course), 2 hylids (maybe H. chrysocelis, leucophylla or marmorata) and a pair or trio of small anolis (such as A. sagrei, cristellatellus or chlorocyanus). I see no reason why this cannot work, as the animals would not really compete with each other.

So that's my motif: plant repetition with faunal diversity. Kind of like a community aquarium, no? 

Opinions? 

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Mixing these animals in vivs this small is a no no. Thats something you can read up on in the beginner's section or the general section. While the plantings may give the illusion of that kind of diversity, there really isn't enough space. In vivs that are extremely large, like maybe a small greenhouse sized one, I could see it though.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Huh?*

Now, what exactly, does "play that fiddle" mean?

What could I have possiblt said now to elicit that response?

Honestly confused,

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: Huh?*



Groundhog said:


> Now, what exactly, does "play that fiddle" mean?
> 
> What could I have possiblt said now to elicit that response?
> 
> ...


Nothing. Just trying to be funny.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's ok, I'm not sure I get it either. I was like... haha... wait... am I getting the right reference? (Devil went down to Georgia?)

My two cents again... more like a dollar at this point...

Tyler - The viv looks great! How long has it been set up? It's an example of how (primarily) "Home Depot plants" *can* be done right... tho this time next year it might look vastly different... I recommend taking out the dumb cane (grows way too large) and it will be interesting to see what takes over... broms or vines... but still a nice landscape. Love the pond and leaf litter 

Groundhog - I love Grassyspeak's mantra as well, and I include it with my frogs as well as the plants..... that spreads into having one species of herp in the tanks... period... so I can fulfill the needs of those animals to the best and most exact I can.

Yes, people often over plant their tanks, they want them to look "full" before they let the plants grow in completely, and rarely take in full plant dimensions. There is also the "terrarium gardening" idea... that a plant that is not truly appropriate for the tank size wise for example (such as the dumb cane) can be kept trimmed so it still fits in the tank. To me that's like saying I'll keep an adult azureus in a 2.5 gallon tank because when it grows too big, I'll feed it less. There is a trend in frog keeping that people spend so much time researching the care of the frogs and their food (in some cases, if they even do that...) that stuff like plants and other topics (like adding fish) which have a set of rules all their own get tossed out the window... each set of organisms has their own care needs and rules. It's a steep learning curve. There just aren't the resources out there on how these plants perform in tanks. While there are a number of people on here somewhat knowledgeable on how these plants perform in tanks, we are hardly the majority, and we've yet to publish a text on the subject to help others out. Plant just tend to get tossed by the wayside.

I don't particularly like how you used the word "swamp amphibians"... some of the amphibians you listed don't actually live in swamps (stream side is a big difference), and as a biogeographer its very important to me that particulars like this be correct. The habitat these animals come from dictates how they need to be kept in captivity. All the niches and what not I know of need air flow, and don't need a totally enclosed tank but will need some sort of humidifying going on. While marsh amphibians might like to sit in water much of the time, the air might actually be rather dry.

There is no set time limit for testing how well a plant does in a vivarium setting as it involves the individual life cycle of each plant. Basically, not only does the plant initially survive, but does it reach full size (at all, in typical time, etc.) and does it at least attempt reproduction, both sexually (flowering) and asexual cloning (sending out runners, pups, etc.). If a plant does this and mirrors its natural rate of growth and reproduction, I'd say its a go. That can mean you'd know in as little as 3 months to as much at 15+ years... depends on the species...

You forgot one other thing about neos... the most popular varieties tend to have a lot of flash in their leaves... red blotches, banding, blushing red/maroon, etc. Few of the more common broms available thru suppliers that can actually fit in tanks have these... thats why _V. racinae_ is popular, because of its leaf markings. If the patterned _Vriesea_ broms were both smaller and cheaper (another major factor) then more would be seen in the hobby, but even _V. splendens_ is way too large for most tanks. Neos have a lot of bang for a small amount of buck. Why people want plants to compete for flashiness with their frogs, I will never know...

I like Des Vosjoli, I've even got a couple of his books, but I don't really agree with mixing PDFs with other species. This is much like mixing PDFs... not impossible but best done by only experienced keepers in very large 100+ gallon cube style tanks where the specific niches of the animals can be catered too. This also implies that all the animals will occur within the same niche level of the habitat, as to better cater to the reproduction of niches in captivity... this is why many PDFs don't do well with hylids that even occur in the same place in the wild, because they occur in the canopy of the forest vs. the forest floor, which have vastly different conditions.

As a volunteer at NAIB, I got a chance to work with a lot of mixed tanks, including PDFs, a few hylids, 4-5 species of lizard, a couple different toads, and around 4 species of snakes. The deal generally ran that there were PDFs, and then say... hylids. In another tank, PDFs and lizards. The only tank that had more than two groups was a tank of D. tinc Saul/Yellowback, ETBs, and some milky treefrogs... main reason it worked is all had different food sources. The more groups you add in, the more complicated it gets, and you have to make sure they aren't competing. My main problem with you list is that the hylids and anoles would be competing over the same food. You don't want the crickets running around loose, and you'd have to make sure everyone was getting feed the right amount.... NAIB reptiles tended to get hand fed to make sure of that.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> ...Yes, people often over plant their tanks, they want them to look "full" before they let the plants grow in completely,* and rarely take in full plant dimensions. There is also the "terrarium gardening" idea... that a plant that is not truly appropriate for the tank size wise for example (such as the dumb cane) can be kept trimmed so it still fits in the tank.* *To me that's like saying I'll keep an adult azureus in a 2.5 gallon tank because when it grows too big, I'll feed it less.* There is a trend in frog keeping that people spend so much time researching the care of the frogs and their food (in some cases, if they even do that...) that stuff like plants and other topics (like adding fish) which have a set of rules all their own get tossed out the window... each set of organisms has their own care needs and rules. It's a steep learning curve. There just aren't the resources out there on how these plants perform in tanks. While there are a number of people on here somewhat knowledgeable on how these plants perform in tanks, we are hardly the majority, and we've yet to publish a text on the subject to help others out. Plant just tend to get tossed by the wayside...


You know, you've said that before and I swear you're an advocate for using Pothos in vivs. Aren't most your vivs Pothos, leaf litter and Maranta?

I have no problem with using plants that get big so long as you can trim them without killing them. This includes many vines and terrestrials. I don't however like trees (ex. Schefflera) or oversized broms in vivs. I think that is a bit over board. Trimming a vine that has reached the top or trimming back some Selaginella that has gotten too thick is perfectly fine IMO.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*1) to Corey (2) to Antone*

Actually, I may not play a fiddle, but I do blow harp--maybe Antone and I can settle this in a jam  

1) I was using "swamp amphibian" in the herpetocultural sense, not in the technical sense--to denote amphibians that need wetness, but not deep water. (Kind of like saying "bog plant"). Although, I believe that Rana erythrea, Occidyzoga, some newts (e.g., Taricha) prefer swamps (or marshes, or bogs) to moving water.

(Biogepgrapher, eh? Read Wilson & McArthur's "Theory of Island Biogeography?")

I did mention that neos have good color, btw (I am beginning to think that neos are some oppressed group, like lgbt--sheesh...)

2) QUESTION: So what you guys are saying that pdfs are simply not good community residents. Hmmnn... May I ask why? Diet? Temperature requirements? Personality, e.g, the presence of other herps freaks them out? (I would be surprised at the last--aposematically colored animals usually have cojones). Is it analogous to, say, exotic killies, chocolate gouramis or species bettas in the aquarium hobby? 

Would you recommend against, say, 2 hylas, 2 small toads (e.g., Bufo quercicus) and 3 anoles in the same 29 high? In other words, is it about pdfs, or the mere concept of community tanks?

How do you feel about community fish tanks?

And if this is the case, why mix so many different plants? Do they not also compete with each other? I see this with my own groundcovers, watching the java moss, pillow moss and Selaginella vy for "ascendancy" depending on the season.

Curious,

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*1) Color (2)Trees in vivaria*

COREY: I happen to agree about color (and so does Des Vosjoli, btw). Why o why would I want to put anythig in my tank that visually competes with the animals? I really would not want a blazing fireball in my tank--who would look at the denizens? I don't even like certain variegates, like variegated Ficus, or Dracaena marginata 'tricolor.'

Incidentally, is it true what Antone says about you and Marantas? :wink: I'll be %@$$#ed--I can grow no Marantaceae in my tank, except Prayer plants :evil: Seems even Dynagro burns them. Yet outside the tank, I grow Ctenanthe burlle-marxii and Calathea ornata on pebble trays no problem--even at work. Go figger...

ANTONE: For we lizard keepers, trees play a role (ESPECIALLY chameleon keepers :shock: )

I see your point about "big" herbs--e.g., Dracaena, Dieffenbachia, Musa; How the hell can one prune these? That is why, while I try to avoid hybrids or cultivars in my tank, sometimes I gots no choice--I do have Episcia 'silver skies,' Guzmania 'teresa' and Philodendron 'pincushion.' Their larger forbears would become problematic.

But what about small woody trees? E.g, Ficus 'too little,' Coffea, Dwarf Schefflera (B. arboricola), Eugenia, Mitriostigma, or dwarf Gardenia? In big tanks, can these not also be trimmed? I think they look cool--especially when they start to throw down aerial roots!

Remember, lizard keepers use these for very functional reasons. Would you be more inclined to use leafy plants, and to use branches and dead lianas for lizard perches?

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Back to broms*

So Antone,

Using Vriesea racinae only as a size guide, what small neos would you recommend that:

1) hold water fairly well;
2) do not need full light (e.g., fireball light) for good color;
3) Max out around the size of V. racinae (or say, Neo punctatissima)

Any species neos fill this bill, by chance, or am I better served with a hybrid such as N. 'alley cat' or N. 'flair up'?

Thanks,

G 

P.S.

Have you, by chance, ever tried Tillandsia biflora or Vriesea carinata?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Antone,

Actually, most of my vivs don't have any plants in them, I take my leaf litter seriously lol. This is why I rarely show pics of my tanks... people yell at me for how under planted my planted tanks are anyways... The few that do have cuttings of pothos. I do have a 20L for zaparo with maranta. The maranta has since spread like wild, and I've taken cuttings off of it to keep it down, no big deal, trimming like you mentioned. Vines are a bit trickier, guess it really depends on how technical you want to get. Pothos can easily be propagated never getting to its sexually mature form, like most vines. The most popular vines we use have perfectly good sized juvenile forms, and I'm not against using vines with appropriate sized juvenile forms, which aren't likely to get bigger without a tree anyways.

What I do have issue with, would be something like trying to keep a juvenile form of say, philodendron, which is too large in the first place and keeping it constantly trimmed so it doesn't pop the lid... it might not kill it right off, but its still an obviously bad choice.... or getting a maranta relative that grows 3', but trimming off the top leaves so it stays in the tank, well under its typical height... these are not plants spreading by asexual reproduction like I guess what vines do, but rather plants trying to reach their minimum requirements. We're basically on the same page. I didn't really think about vines when writing, I was thinking of the poor fate of the dumb cane plantlet which will never reach its 6' height....


Groundhog - PDFs simply aren't good community residents for the same reason that say, african cichlids are with freshwater fish. They are probably the most aggressive amphibians I've seen, with a number of species known to attack other species, and not even members of the same taxonomic family, this is my main reason against mixing within the family as well. If they were dog size, I think we'd have serious issues keeping them as pets. Also, their food preferences can make them a pain with other animals. The most aposematic members are the boldest members, true, and most of the PDFs wouldn't be bothered by the other members presented in the tank as long as A) the tank is large enough to give them their separate niches so they aren't tripping over each other and B) they don't see each other as a food item. One of the boldest PDFs out there, P. bicolor, I have personally seen eat a small house gecko. They'd happily eat baby anoles, and if they have small enough cage mates, would probably have a go at anything they thought could do in their mouth, and eat the food meant for the hylids and lizards. Tricolor/anthonyi would try and do the same thing, but with relatively smaller food items with their size (tho mine have eaten up to 3 week old crickets that I feed my leucophyllata) and unlike the bicolor, would try and beat up tank mates (they harassed some leucophyllatas that tried to join them at feeding and I later removed... in a community tank at NAIB they tended not to abuse the hylids as the hylids were more solid day sleepers and weren't active, and they had plenty other dendrobatids to beat up instead). They aren't sensitive like chocolate gouramis, they are aggressive like african cichlids lol.

I don't think a 29 gallon is big enough for more than on species period, much less a mixed tank. While in theory the right mix of hylas, toads, and anoles (tho I couldn't think of species that it would work with) would do better than tossing dendrobatids into the mix, I still think you're not taking niches into account as much as you should. I cold see say... I dunno... grey treefrogs, american toads, and some green anoles in a 60 gallon cube type deal... but in a 29? hell no. I would only keep 2-3 treefrogs in there (unless they are some of the real small guys) period, forget the rest. Just too small.

I've kept freshwater fish tanks on and off for years... I'm currently planning out a 45 gallon asian backwater tank with lots of small stuff (dwarf rasboras and small Anabantoids with a cleaning crew). To sum it up, a good community tank is hard as hell beyond the tried and true fish mixes (which the fish hobby, being around longer, has had the time to figure out). pH, temps, personality, schooling needs, food needs, lighting needs... I'm only keep maybe at best 5 species in the 45 gallon, and that's narrowed down from a list of almost 30 applicable species. And I'm not going to even dream of breeding those fish in tank, I plan to remove some of the fish as needed to breed, then add them back. Breeding and a community tank rarely goes down with much success.

Why mix so many plants? I've no idea. Like mentioned before, I rarely have more than one or two plants in a tank. If i have more than one, they are generally completely different types of plants that will not compete with each other directly. My ground cover doesn't compete, its all leaf litter  ground covers are for those not going for natural, looking to have a mini lawn in their tanks... I've seen PDFs in the wild and know its not like that lol. My tanks might be ugly, but they better reflect the real deal...

The swamp reference still doesn't make sense to me as swamp is a habitat type, I've never heard of it used in a "herpetocultural sense" like that. Every time a herper says a herp is "swampy" its cuz they pulled it out of a swamp lol. There is a more appropriate term for what you're trying to say, but it's been a long week and my brain is a little fried.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I think maybe Neo. "June Night" is a good candidate for you.










Its a bit larger than N. punctatissima but it does hold water quite well. You might try N. "Flaming Lovely" as well. That hybrid is a bit smaller than June Night.

Trees in really tall tanks for Cham keepers is cool with me. I'm just speaking for the average PDF viv (20 gal High). No good... If you want branchy in smaller tanks, use branchy driftwood, no sense in stuffing a live tree in there.

I have not tried those Tillies or Vriesea. I've been having a hard time obtaining smooth foliage Tillies. I would love to get my hands on T. somnians.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Marantas are a fav of mine, after jewel orchids. The only marantas in my tanks currently are prayer plants of various varieties, as the Ctenanthe I have doesn't really fit the needs of any of my frogs, so it just sits in a plant viv for my enjoyment... like 95% of my plants lol. They need it a bit drier with more air flow than typical tanks have, the prayers can grow in mud practically, and currently grow in tanks with just LECA, sphagnum, and leaf litter.

I don't fertilize. The frogs do that for me. Also I tend to keep ponds and water bowls in the tank, which build up organic matter (dead flies, rotting leaf litter, etc). When I clean these out, the sludge goes to the base of the plants in the tank. Mmmmmm plant yummies. No fertilizer needed.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*There's a happy median, no?*

So pdfs are that assertive? Hmn, like their ranid relatives? 

Antone: With you 100% on trees in small vivs. I was thinking 29high, 30, 55, 75;

Shall look up those Neo hybrids--thanks. You have in stock? (Am I allowed to ask that here, btw?)

Corey: 

The herpetocutural term of choice for Bartlett, Des Vosjoili is "shoreline."

You knew what I meant!!!! :x 


I think there is such a thing as being TOO careful. Three anoles, 2 Bufo quercicus and 2 grey tfs in a 29high? If you're not trying to breed them? 

When I had a 55gal paludarium--for TWENTY years--Ihad anoles, long-tailed lizards, a flying gecko, treefrogs and--fish. Yeah, fish, in 5 1/2" of water (G_d bless the square/cube law). Had an African butterfly, Honey Gouramis, Cory panda; even had a Ctenopoma ansorgei for over three years (great fish--but never would eat prepared foods). 

The biggest pain-in-the-ass was when--and I ain't makin this up--my Phelsuma madagascarensis day ate my Rasbora kalochroma--one by one. He would sway his head from side to side before doing so. A teacher of mine saw this and said, "that's fascinating--he's actually correcting for parallax." 

*$%@#! parallax and #[email protected]!% day geckos...

I have only 2 15gal tanks now--one neotropical, one old world. Not even filled to the rim (I like watching plants emerse--hey thesurface area is the same).

In my old world tank I have three sparkling gouramis, a female betta, six Rasbora espei and two Botia striata along with three Hymenochirus. These ain't big fish, and they are doing fine. Want to get a couple of floating frogs to complete the deal.

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Back to Broms (wake up Homies!)*

Antone,

What is your mounting substrate of choice--tree fern or cork bark? If the plant has a stolon do you shove in a hole, or tie it to the surface?

What is your fertilizer of choice? Or, do you even fertilie neo-heavy tanks?

Thanks,

G

P.S.

Have not forgot about my man Tyler. Want to study your tank some more before commenting.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*On Groundcovers, Kero*

Pardon me, Miss Thing:

But what if the ground covers do their own thing? Or how about Selaginellas or Vesicularia in old world tanks w/o pdfs? 

Come to think of it--is there any time there is luxuriant plant growth in deep shade below the understory? 

I-don't-think-so.

But in da woods, the short plants are not always in front of the tall plants either--we are going for aesthetic effect here. But if your dendrobatids like it, its' their house...

Leaf litter is good in large enclosures though, especially for bigger herps that will trample many groundcovers (e.g., fire skinks);

G


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

In the viv I just mount them to anything sturdy in the tank like the the background (Tree Fern, Cork or Foam), driftwood or the glass using suction cups.

If its outside, I do driftwood with moss wrapped around the bases so that they root a little better.

Stolons get shoved and tied. It just depends on the position I want it.

Fertilizer in the viv is just what Kero pretty much said... Frog waste and dead flies. I also mist with rain water which I feel is really beneficial. Outside I just use a dilute orchid fertilizer. Its the "Better Grow" brand. I foliar feed in the evening and then overflow the tank the next morning so that they don't get burned. I only feed my non viv broms.

I do have Flaming Lovely available. June Night is on hiatus for a bit.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Kerokero: I think I might have asked you this before but on what grounds are you against "terrarium gardening"? Is it ethical, practical, or what?(can't quite get it). I will assume it is the second. I've got an Anthurium pentaphyllum in my 46 gallon bowfront, which at least in the wild gets quite large. The person I got it from said it would be fine in the tank with a bit of trimming. I've also yet to find a rosette plant(besides a brom) that fits in my 46 gallon tank comfortably at its written adult size. With rosette plants I can definetly understand choosing appropriate ones but with vines not so convinced.

Groundhog: I'd guess in areas where trees have recently fallen and vacated space, or right beside a body of water as in many of our vivs you'd find groundcover. 

Btw, big guys, keep the posts flying!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Am I suppose to be Miss Thing? I don't appreciate the title.

I don't have any true ground covers in my tanks, I generally avoid them. If the pothos take over, so be it. I put leaf litter in there for a reason, and moss and what not is not worth the effort, as it takes away hide spots and food sources. I've seen a number of types of rain forest, and undisturbed there is little to no plant life on the forest floor, no need to point this out to me again, I believe I mentioned that in a post as my reasoning behind leaf litter, and why most of my tanks are only leaf litter. There is no "luxuriant" plant growth in my tank, which people love to point out to me, which is why I rarely post photos. I'm as confused on why I'm having to explain this as I am with the title "Miss Thing".


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I like to have my tanks, and what's in them, the way nature intended. If the plant doesn't grow in the specifications I have, I can find another plant (these days its a lot easier to find plants than it used to be). Also, as mentioned before, these super densely planted tanks aren't remotely accurate to what these animals live in in the wild. I prefer to give the frogs what they want and like. The tanks are for the frogs, so I don't really care if they are my idea of "pretty" if the frogs like them, they aren't a display like most people's tanks.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*By way of Explanation*

Hey Corey:

Seriously, no offense intended. I am beginning to realize something: As a New Yawker, my borscht belt or homeboy colloquialisms may be misinterpreted. What is funny or simply assertive where I come from seems to be (mis)interpreted as aggression or arrogance here  

I seriously meant no dis, Corey. 

:idea: How about Miss Keeping-it-real? 

Seriously, I think you might not get Dendrobait's question--I see it as a philosophical queston, if only because most people do not, in fact, attempt to recreate nature "accurately" so much as "prettily."

Similar to the fact that most people do not pour black water extract AND almond leaves into their fish tanks to make some annual killie or tiny anabantid happy. 

But there are edge zone and other microclimates where there is sometimes very pretty growth, just as there are epiphyte covered logs and branches. Is it somehow inauthentic to wish to attempt to recreate that? What do you think of naturalistic botanical garden conservatories?

HEY--YOU GUYS EVER NOTICE SOMETHING: In a lot of botanical gardens, the tropicals are usually separated by lowland and montane, regardless of origin. Fine. But in the desert house, the American and African succulents are in diifferent displays. Any reason for this? 

And if authenticity is a paramount value, why pothos? Why not a neotropical aroid, even Philodendron scandens?

I can also wholeheartedly recommend Monstera seltipecana. What a pretty, easy plant. Damned if I know why it ain' more popular.

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Addendum*

Kero kero: Then again, I keep hylids and hyeroliids. 

I would never attempt to keep fire skinks or say, Malaysian leaf frogs in a bromeliad-laden tank.

I would ask you for a pic of your tank, and follow that :wink: 

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*And a nudder ting...*

Believe it or don't, the "groundcovers" may be the best thing in my tank--and i don't do crap! I planted some Dicranum and added onepiece of Selaginellla uncinata--the Vesicualria, Pillow Moss, Selaginella, volunteer liverworts, volunteer Pteris, volunteer Polypodium all did it on their own! 

In fact, the benefit is not all aesthetic! They tend to abosorb excess moisture and act as an excellent anchor for shallow-rooted gesneriads and begonias to take root in (oops--did I just end a sentence with a preposition?!?)

Hey Kero--I want to ask you some jewel orchid questions--shall I start a new thread? First, I want to study Antone's and Tyler's tanks, though...

Incidentally, you mentioned that there are no definitive texts. Clearly, you guys don't read the horticultural newsletters or journals (or Dave's Garden web) where I write in  

But what do you think of Rex Lee Searcy? He da bomb, in my impartial opinion!

G


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## harrywitmore (Feb 9, 2004)

We as much as I tried I could not totally consume this entire thread. Do you guys ever go to bed  
One thing that caught my eye was


> I have no problem with using plants that get big so long as you can trim them without killing them. This includes many vines and terrestrials. I don't however like trees (ex. Schefflera)


There is actually an epiphytic Schefflera and it doesn't seem to get very big. Or, at least mine hasn't.

One other thing I believe GroundHog mentioned was his difficulty rooting Peps and Hoyas. The key is make a good rooting soil such as Perlite, peat and bark with some sphagnum. Anything not too peaty and very free draining. Put the cuttings in the mix and water them in and leave them alone. Make sure they stay humid. I normally get roots in a week.

I have also noted the word expert used both was in this discussion as in I'm an expert and I'm not expert. I believe that this word should never be used by anyone talking about themselves. It should be left to others to determine that. I don't believe there are any real experts as it seems to imply they know everything about something. They don't.

I have seen many terrariums and Vivs by most of the folks here and I believe you all are having fun doing what you are doing and that's why I'm doing it.

Merry Christmas Everyone!


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*1) To Harry on Cuttings (2) To Tyler on his setup*

1) Well, I did meam "expert" in that way--I also acknowledge where I am not the man. Maybe I should stick to "specialize" or "even "I have a lot of experience with." 

Thanks for the advice on the cuttings, Harry. WIll try it!

2) Tyler: I dig your tank!

Some questions:

1) What specific varieties of Guzmanias and Vrieseas are you using? Are you sure they won't outgrow the space? How large is that tank?

2) How do you mount them? Can they freely drain?

3) You mentioned that Neoregelias do not, in fact, do well for you. Any idea why? I actually have only one problem with Neos; because I do fertilize my tanks (with a weak solution of Dynagro), I find that it can cause Neos to stretch. Not for light, mind you--they maintain fine color. 

I now mount my one Neo (a "Midget') up high, and fertilize VERY sparingly. Cute plant!

4) What/how many critters in the tank?

Lata Dude.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Groundhog,

Are you foliar feeding your bromeliads in vivs with frogs in them? If so, how are you making sure the frogs don't rest in this stuff?


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Groundhog: Take alook at some of the "natural aquarium" setups. Not very natural. Not a speck of algae in sight...tons of different plants in crystal clear trimmed a few inches to the bottom. In real life, their would be lots of algae on the driftwood pieces, and either a few tall and scraggly plants here and there trying to reach the surface, with moss covering some rocks, or else mats of one species dominating an area. I've yet to see any aquarium called beautiful that sports a giant clump of say Najas and little else. 

From photos of the jungle(and also trips in a redwood forest which I think is the closest environ I've gotten to a rainforest) it is true many areas are totally devoid of noticeable plantlife on the floor. Based on the photos on the blackjungle website frogs are frequently found there too. But many areas have quite a few plants, the edge habitat Groundhod describes. And even in the depths of the jungle their are probably some vining plants coating the lower trunks of trees and similar. 

In case anyone hasn't seen this
http://www.blackjungle.com/gallery/Cost ... ex_28.html


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Greaser posted video footage of his trip to Peru. Why not view those? Nothing more convincing than video footage.

Here is one he posted of a typical tree that he saw there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6_KvdyZBSY


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*1) Fertilizer (2) "Natural"*

Antone,

I don't care if the frogs sit in weak Dynagro. It seems to really be terrarium safe (and is sold as such). My next post wil be a sad story, though...

Dendrobait,

Excellent points. But I think some fish keepers push the boundaries better. For example, possibly the best ""nature" tanks in my opinion are West African biotopes--some logs with Anubias and Bolbitis--THAT'S IT. And you know what? That is what a West African stream really looks like!
In my tanks, I let algae grow wherever it wants except the glass (but I have small tanks).

I just believe that it is possible to strike a balance beteen natural and pretty. We don't all have rooms or greenhouses where we can really do a "natura" setup with realistic microclimates and bioload. The only aesthetic points I originally attempted to make were that:

--repetition looks better than "one of eveything" E.g., stick one Selagilla sp and not three in a 20 long! :roll: 

--actuallly, this was a question: do you guys try do biotope, ie., only neotropical plants with neotropical frogs, etc;

G


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Neem Oilis dangerous-SO how to get rid of Scale?*

  

Just telling this story makes me sad...

Neem oil kills frogs, and the website even says so. Do not believe any nonsense about it being natural and nontoxic. It may be nontoxic to amniotes (reptiles, birds, mammals)--so what...

Had a long-term Dwarf Schefflera (Heptapleurum arboricola) which pruned to bonsai. It worked! Was the centerpiece of my tank, and even threw down aerial buttress roots. It was so cool.

Then finally, after eight years-scale. Never had scale before, in eighteen years of doing this--never, in ANY tank. Interesting thing is that it would only infest three (of my favorite) plants:

--the arboricola;
--Anubias barteri;
--Schismatoglottis emarginata (Asian aroid similar to Syngonium rayi)

Not one bromeliad was infested. Oh--what to do? Tried the alcohol bit--but it would came back.

Byron Martin of Logee's advised me to remove the plant--and if it died of shock, too bad. Better than losing other plants, or frogs (I now remind me of those idiots in zombie movies who can't shoot their ex-wife or kid, so we all end up getting bit...)

Had to save my plant :roll: 
So I tried neem oil--very dilute, and rinsed afterwords.

Well, it does work. Alas, two months later my long-term, tame captive born & raised Hyla marmorata developed spasms and died. While I cannot prove it, I suspect the Neem oil. I do know that there is lit that warns it is dangerous to frogs.

QUESTION: If you had a long-term setup and scale attacked a cherished plant--what to do?

Ron Gagliardo agreed with Byron Martin--told me to remove the plant. No matter what it is, where it comes from... If it dies of shock, better than five plants or a frog.

What do you guys think of the dry ice idea (temp removal of frogs, of course)?

Please advise,

G


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Was the marmorata the only frog in the tank?

I doubt dry ice would work as scale wouldn't use much oxygen and would take a long time to suffocate. Their has been some talk on the use of benefecial beetles which feed on the scale...expensive but all natural.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Every time I walk away from this post, I come back to a ton of responses... eek.

Jewel Orchid questions would be off topic and would get lost in here anyways, start a new thread.

There are definitive text on many of the plants we use in vivariums... just not about the use of those plants in vivariums. One of the key things I'd think this thread should point out is how these plants grow in the greenhouse and the wild often does not reflect how they grow in vivariums. The texts mentioned are from the plant view, not the vivarium view. There is no definitive text on growing plants "correctly" in a PDF vivarium.

I try and create vivariums more accurate to the needs of the frogs rather than pretty tanks. This does not imply that I use plants from the same area, as should be obvious with the Pothos (which hails from the Solomon Islands). Even the leaves in the leaf litter aren't even correct! What I'm trying to do is reproduce the things my frogs need with what I can get, using the best substitutions. In the case of pothos, I use it as its the only horizontally oriented vine I can get with a small enough juvenile form to use, as well as strong enough to hold a frog (or frogs). My anthonyi/tricolor call from and lay eggs on horizontally oriented leaves... Philo scandens does not fit this bill as their leaves tend to be angled downward.

My blackwater tanks had wild almond leaves in them as well, and yes, to make my Anabantoids happy, plus the fish stand out gorgeously (much like PDFs do) and it works great with sparkliers . And yes, my fish tanks were also considered somewhat "ugly". There will be leaf litter on the bottom of my 45 Asian backwater as well, as it fits my idea of what the tank should look like, I don't want plants across the bottom nor to deal with the lights needed to do that, and the Kuhli Loaches would adore the leaves. I'm an oddball. And on the fish note - some algae is good, lots is bad. I think a lot of fish people think its so bad that they don't allow for any in the tank... I just keep the front glass free of it for viewing purposes and leave the rest up to my algae cleaning crew, usually Otos 

I think with botanical displays, it may often have to do with availability of tropical species... if you don't have enough from one place, fill from various places.

For the scale... I've started putting my plants thru quarantine/acclimation, much like the frogs. Scale will be noticeable in this period, and if its seen, the plant doesn't go in. It doesn't just "magically" appear in a tank... but if it does show up, I follow Ron. Then again, Ron is the one who started me into the plants all those years ago  If you really like a plant... have more than one... have an extra outside the tank... you can replace the favored plant with a clean one then... the ones outside the tank tend to be my parent plants, with cuttings/pups being put in the tanks. I've avoided most problems this way.

Different species of scale tend towards different species of plants. Much like your case... you'll likely not see scale on the broms. Scale appearing on broms likely wouldn't go after many of the other plants, but spread like wildfire among similar bromeliads. Scale seems to be rather plant specific.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

*Kero Kero*

Corey,

Started a jewel orchid thread--Harry and Antone are in. Please join us and share some wisdom!

G


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