# TMC Grobeam 1000 ND LED light question



## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

I have just bought the TMC Grobeam 1000 ND light 'tile' and controller (for automated sunrises and sunsets) for my new 29 gallon vert tank (30" H x 12" W x 18" D) - but just noticed on the tech spec that the output is only 800 lumens - this seems a bit low compared to say CFLs or the T5HOs im used to? It uses CREE XP LEDs x 10 - enough to see good plant growth even on the base of the tank?

Product spec below :

TMC: Planted Tank Products - GroBeam 1000 ND Lighting Tile

Kind regards

Anthony


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I looked at the specs, its weird they don't really seem to add up unless I misread something. It says it runs at 30watts yet only puts out around 800 lumens. Even if it is closer to 900 lumens most led's get around 60-80 lumens per watt. I figured 10 bulbs at 30watts would mean they are 3watt leds but they should be putting out way more lumens, about 1800 at 60 lumens per watt so it looks like the specs suggest they are closer to 1 watt bulbs. Good 1watt Led bulbs could do 80 lumens a watt easily so there the specs for number of bulbs and lumen output match pretty good...10 bulbs at 80 lumens per bulb gives you 800 lumens, so it looks like they are actually better then 80 lumens per watt...but that should only need to run off around 10 watts of power so I'm wondering where the hell the other 20 watts is going to? Seems like a hugely inefficient system if it needs 30watts of power to produce only 800-900 lumens. It should be doing almost triple that at 30 watts. 

Anyways led's penetrate more so you might get away with 1 fixture at the top, mounted in the middle...though the viv may be dark in the upper corners, so you may want to raise the led off the top some so light will spill into those upper corners, more likely though you'll find that 2 of those would be better suited to adequately light the tank. Even then it may look under lighted. I run probably at least 4 times that number of lumens per gallon of tank probably...like 2-3 watts per gallon, which probably comes out to 100-200 lumens per gallon for me usually. The penetration of LEDs may make up for that some on the floor but like I said you may find the upper parts of the tank at the corners are darker then you like, like a shaft of light shooting down the center of a dark box


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## jason21 (Nov 21, 2009)

The Specs state that the LED's themselves consume 15w while the unit as a total consumes 30w. Most likely the other 15w are consumed by the controller. I'm not sure about the specifics of this system but I do know there are other cheap controllable LED fixtures out there where the controller itself consumes 25w +. 

I think one fixture would probably do the trick, while listed at only 800 lumen the big thing is that LED's have been shown to be more efficient at producing light within the peak absortion range for our plants.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

jason21 said:


> The Specs state that the LED's themselves consume 15w while the unit as a total consumes 30w. Most likely the other 15w are consumed by the controller. I'm not sure about the specifics of this system but I do know there are other cheap controllable LED fixtures out there where the controller itself consumes 25w +.
> 
> I think one fixture would probably do the trick, while listed at only 800 lumen the big thing is that LED's have been shown to be more efficient at producing light within the peak absortion range for our plants.


Possibly, lumens though is the light the eye sees so they may still look unpleasingly dim even if they still provide adequate light because the frequency ranges are closer to the ideal. 15watts just to run the controller?, or even 25 like you said?...that seems high, like high enough to negate much of the supposed power savings from LEDs. 1 26watt CFL will put out like 1200 lumens...800 for this thing, other then bulb life (which is arguably negated by the cost of the fixture itself) don't see much benefit. 

Maybe it would be better to go with something like these...

This is actually the price for 2...
2 x White LED Aquarium Grow Light Panels 24" 28w total - eBay (item 220720415694 end time Feb-04-11 17:12:36 PST)

Or this 90watt monster thats still pretty cheap...
90W UFO Hydroponic Lamp plant Grow Light White LED 110v - eBay (item 110489372646 end time Jan-28-11 07:34:36 PST)

This one doesn't look to bad either for the price...
White Hydroponic LED Panel Grow Light 110 225 V 30 Watt - eBay (item 200563405168 end time Jan-15-11 20:55:35 PST)

Here are the rest of the search results...
white led grow light items - Get great deals on Home Garden, Pet Supplies items on eBay.com!

IMO the most cost effective way to go LED for now is these kinda grow lights, and the screw in replacements like these...
E27 110V AC WHITE ENERGY SAVING 102-LED LIGHT BULB - eBay (item 260711643925 end time Jan-22-11 15:21:55 PST)

Led High Power Bulb 6W E27 Warm White AC110~264V - eBay (item 270595433449 end time Jan-13-11 23:58:34 PST)

E27/E26 12W 240 led light bulb cool/warm white color - eBay (item 150532288447 end time Jan-09-11 08:59:02 PST)

Can't vouch for how reliable the grow lights and some of the screw in replacements are though. The screw ins with the fins and metal heatsinks on the outside should be good quality though, and many actually throw a surprising amount of light off the sides even though it doesn't look like they would. Looks like they would work more like a flashlight...and some do, but some do ok as regular bulbs.


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

I just took a look at the fixture and the online spec sheet. Can someone please tell me where they state a Lumen output of 800 or so, cause I cant find it.

What I have found is that they use 10 Cree XP-E LEDs and seem to operate at 700 mA, and they seem to have a 6500K output. Now the only CREE XP-E LED to have that are the XP-E R2 to R5 series, which have the following specs:
130 to 270 Lumen at 700mA and 3.2V depending on the quality standard (R1 to Rx). First weird thing, because 10 LEDs should then have 10 x 130 to 270Lumen output = 1300 to 2700Lumen

Then the power supply says 21,5Vmax on the online spec but 10 LEDs will need 10 x 3,2V = 32Vmax to work properly. Second weird thing.

21.5 / 32 = 0.67 or about 67% Now 67% of 1300Lumen is about 871Lumen...

In English now: I personnaly have doubts in this fixture because the spec sheet I found online is very vague or wrong as the LEDs would need different voltage to work properly. If connected this way they only have 67% of the output that they could have and there is a risk that the luminaire supply at 21,5V is overloaded by 30%, because the LEDs simply need more to work. 

So please check if they dont heat up too much, a ggod LED light can be touched without any burning sensation.

Just my 5 cents and yes I feel bored right now 

Have a nice day 

gluedl


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

gluedl said:


> I just took a look at the fixture and the online spec sheet. Can someone please tell me where they state a Lumen output of 800 or so, cause I cant find it.
> 
> What I have found is that they use 10 Cree XP-E LEDs and seem to operate at 700 mA, and they seem to have a 6500K output. Now the only CREE XP-E LED to have that are the XP-E R2 to R5 series, which have the following specs:
> 130 to 270 Lumen at 700mA and 3.2V depending on the quality standard (R1 to Rx). First weird thing, because 10 LEDs should then have 10 x 130 to 270Lumen output = 1300 to 2700Lumen
> ...


Well you went even more technical then me, and I agree...the specs don't make much sense on this thing  I don't remember if this is where I saw the original mention of 800+ lumens but here is one mention atleast...
GroBeam 1000 ND Lighting Tile - Aquacadabra - Fishkeeping with a Touch of Magic


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

It is a strange one isn't it? As these products are from a VERY reputable company (TMC) and are designed to replace 150w MH fixtures - and seem to get decent reviews too. I have emailed the company regarding the relatively low stated Lumens output and will update this thread when I have a response.

Oh and yes, I have already ordered the product.

Kind regards

Anthony


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

I actually have one of these, over a viv. Plant growth is stunning, a small white fittonie has now reached the top of the viv and it's only been running about 2 months. Also it really brings out reds in red plants, my cryptanthus are a variety that usually go pink under T5HO, under my 1000ND they are going RED.

As to visual brightness, I have the viv with this in right next to an aquarium with 4 39 watt T5HO tubes over it, and it is BRIGHTER, as for one thing all of the output is pretty much pointing into the viv, and not coming splashing out all over the place as flourescent lighting does. Oh and the description actually says OVER 800 lumens, not bang on 800 lumens. lol Plus the important thing with lighting for plants is PAR, not lumens, and although I can't provied these figures for the 1000ND, from experience I can tell you that plants THRIVE under these.

Ade


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Wolfenrook said:


> I actually have one of these, over a viv. Plant growth is stunning, a small white fittonie has now reached the top of the viv and it's only been running about 2 months. Also it really brings out reds in red plants, my cryptanthus are a variety that usually go pink under T5HO, under my 1000ND they are going RED.
> 
> As to visual brightness, I have the viv with this in right next to an aquarium with 4 39 watt T5HO tubes over it, and it is BRIGHTER, as for one thing all of the output is pretty much pointing into the viv, and not coming splashing out all over the place as flourescent lighting does. Oh and the description actually says OVER 800 lumens, not bang on 800 lumens. lol Plus the important thing with lighting for plants is PAR, not lumens, and although I can't provied these figures for the 1000ND, from experience I can tell you that plants THRIVE under these.
> 
> Ade


Ya it said over 800...I figured that meant 800-900 or somewhere inbetween...if it is actually a 1000+ I figured they'd wanna advertise that  But your experience is encouraging at least. What size tank do you have the light over? Also as you said the light all mostly stays in the tank, one of the benefits of LEDs tending to be a more focused source, but did you have to raise the light so that the top parts of the tanks are well lit or did you feel they were adequately lit with little vignetting (like dark corners in a photograph), placed at about the same height as any normal fixture sitting on top of the tank? Just curious as I haven't tried any LEDs other then my firefly lights yet


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

I currently have two tanks with their LEDs on them, and when I have the money I will continue to do more of my tanks. Much less heat is coming off of them than HOT5 fixtures, my broms have better color and better growth, and all of my orchids are blooming with LEDs that never bloomed with any other lights on them. Not to mention the guarantee with them, and the fact that they use less power.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

What type of coverage (tank size - length/width) do you think they can cover?

And how much are you getting them for?

s


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

therizman2 said:


> I currently have two tanks with their LEDs on them, and when I have the money I will continue to do more of my tanks. Much less heat is coming off of them than HOT5 fixtures, my broms have better color and better growth, and all of my orchids are blooming with LEDs that never bloomed with any other lights on them. Not to mention the guarantee with them, and the fact that they use less power.


Are there USA versions of these? or do you have to run them off some kind of voltage converter/adapter or something? USA based suppliers?


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

Wow, I am now very much looking forward to trying this lighting unit out for size when it arrives!

I did find an in depth reveiw of the product somewhere but am struggling to find it at the minute - i'll update when I do.

*EDIT*

Heres the article on LED lights - mainly talks about the Aquaray (14k version) for marine applications but still interesting

http://aquariumdigest.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/led-aquarium-lights-lighting/


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

There is one US supplier that I was able to find, if you PM me I can send you their site, I dont want to post it since they are not a sponsor. I am using the 18" bars that have 5 LEDs in them on 70g breeder Marty Made tanks (36x18x24). I have two on each tank and they work perfectly. In the tanks I have jewel orchids, broms, sygonium, selaginella, peperomia, begonias, restrepia, ferns, macgravia, philodendron, and pileas. All of them are doing well (minus the fern that I am slowly killing because it doesnt seem to like to be misted). Some of my broms have colors that I never saw with regular flourescent lighting, not to mention I have never had such good growth from any of my orchids or jewel orchids. It is also a much cleaner looking light than HOT5.

Price was about $300 per tank ($150 per each bar and 2 bars per tank). It sounds like a lot, but they come with a 5yr guarantee, so in my mind, you are looking at $60 a year. Most of my HOT5s only last a couple years before the ballast goes bad in them, so figure Id go through two HOT5 fixtures, not to mention at least that many bulbs. Plus, I would bet that they last a lot longer than 5yrs since most LEDs are rated for at least 10yrs of use. Not to mention the energy savings, and during the summer, save on cooling costs since they arent producing as much heat.

No adapter is needed, it comes with a normal US plug.

The one thing I will say about the bars, if you dont have a canopy on the tank, you need to get one or cover them up in some sort of way. When I first got them, the light coming out the side of them was so bright it was giving me a headache, $10 at Home Depot though, cut some 4" PVC in half, painted it black on the outside, flat white on the inside and no more issues and looks very clean sitting on top of the tank.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

That's something that's less of a problem with the tiles, less light comes out at the sides. However my wife does sometimes hang a towel over the top bit of the tank when she has a bad head.

I have mine mounted using T8 end caps on an MMS bar, fitted into a stripped down T8 light fitting that came with the tank. It used to be a planted aquarium, so was the simplest way to fit it back then as I didn't want another open topped aquarium.

I think the best way to answer some of the questions is with some photographs:-

First off, these are pics from when it was a planted aquarium and are of 2 portions of red root floater (phyllanthus fluitans), the one on the left from the tank with the 1000ND, the one on the right from a tank with 4x39watt T5HO tubes. Both about the same distance from the light and the same ferts etc:-










The red in the one from under the 1000ND speaks volumes in my opinion.

More on topic, these are pics from the viv. It doesn't contain frogs yet, as said it's only been running a couple of months:-




























As you can see, no real problems with shady spots, these fittings have special lenses to give a wider spread of light than you normally get, but still a lot less is lost to the sides, and it gives a lovely natural looking light.

I think this next pic speaks volumes as well, this is a fireball fairly close to the top of the viv:-










It came into flower about 2 weeks ago, and is still flowering like mad. Here is a pic of the same brom after it first went in:-










and one a couple of weeks after:-










Oh and dimensions, it's octagonal as you can see, 72cms tall, 60cms wide by 60cms front to back. 180litres/40 gallons roughly. Obviously the full hight isn't available, the false bottom takes up about 3.5 inches with the substrate on top of that.

If I could afford I would use these on all of my vivs. Gex has actually seen this viv for himself. lol

Ade


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I am encouraged by the quality of light.

I am encouraged by the absence, or reduction, of waste heat.

I am encouraged by the lower energy usage.

I cannot say I am encouraged by the pricing though.

I have 6 shelves to cover, at 3 feet each. I am planning on placing 2 16.5x17x18 tanks per each shelf. 

Cost of quality T5 lighting (6 x 125sh): $750

Cost of quality LED lighting (12 x $340ish): $4080

I am discouraged by the 500%+ premium for the LED lighting. 

s


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

Hey Scott,

prices are always an issue. May I ask you if you have two left hands ?

If not, you could build yourself a light with minimum effort and a lot less money. For example:

10x Cree XP-G R5: about 50-60€ (@350mA 10 give you 1400Lumen, @1A 10 could give you as much as 3700Lumen @ 6500K)
1 110V power supply : about 30€
alu bars for cooling: less then 5€
1h for soldering, voilà

That's the way I will go for sure. If you have any questions, feel free to ask or look here: 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/55321-diy-led-lights-2.html.


Have a nice day

gluedl


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

gluedl said:


> Hey Scott,
> 
> prices are always an issue. May I ask you if you have two left hands ?
> 
> ...


Hi Gluedl - Can I ask where you buy your CREE LEDs from? PM me the link if you prefer 

Kind regards

Anthony


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## gluedl (Oct 8, 2008)

I get all my stuff from here:

LED-Shop by LED-TECH.de, they ship worldwide...


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

Scott said:


> I am encouraged by the quality of light.
> 
> I am encouraged by the absence, or reduction, of waste heat.
> 
> ...


Precisely why I'm put off these lights.

Although I've been waiting for these guys to post their results......So hopefully in a few years we'll see a decrease in the costs of LEDS....Hopefully.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

You should look at the grobeam 500, would be more than enough for that size tank IMO after using them on much larger tanks. And they are half the price.


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## gex23 (Apr 15, 2008)

therizman2 said:


> You should look at the grobeam 500, would be more than enough for that size tank IMO after using them on much larger tanks. And they are half the price.


So do you think the Grobeam 1000nd that I have ordered should suffice on its own for my 28g Vert conversion? (30"H x 18"D x 12"W).


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

gex23 said:


> So do you think the Grobeam 1000nd that I have ordered should suffice on its own for my 28g Vert conversion? (30"H x 18"D x 12"W).


Should work well on that tank.


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## Wolfenrook (Jul 19, 2010)

You'll get no arguments from me about the price been rediculous on these. I bought mine because it was at the time a planted aquarium with a LOT of water depth. For that depth of water the alternative would have been a 150 watt metal halide fixture, which would then have meant leaving the top of the tank open etc, not to mention a huge electricity bill, and an equally large purchase cost of a decent fixture. Not to mention the masses of heat you get from halides, which on a planted SHRIMP tank would have meant the need to cool the water or use fans etc.

Thing is though, to get the same results with plants you quickly find yourself fusing a LOT of flourescents/compacts etc, using a lot of electricity, regular bulb replacements and giving off a lot of heat... Plus the light will never look as good.

Ade


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## krysty (Mar 16, 2012)

you can get all your stuff from advancedledlights.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

krysty said:


> you can get all your stuff from advancedledlights.


...lives under bridge...


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