# Cheapest Frogs, Cheapest Shipping



## john61510 (Dec 8, 2011)

anyone know? Brian's tropicals had the cheapest shipping at $35 but not a big variety maybe 4-5 frogs


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Seems like frog prices go up and down, depending on supply and demand. I guess that's like most things


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## john61510 (Dec 8, 2011)

yea i guess you have a point, what i dont like is the overnight shipping you have to get, its like $60+


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yup, that's pretty much standard. Just go ahead and ad it in to the cost when you're pricing out frogs.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Kris is spot on...shipping charges are just one of the things you have to accept when getting into darts. If you can find a local member you can avoid shipping. Also, if there are any herp shows in your area you may be able to find darts, but your options will be more limited. I would say the cheapest frogs are going to be some D. auratus morphs, standard leucomelas, E. anthonyi, and R. ventrimaculatus. Some tinc morphs are inexpensive as well. It may be worth your while to save up for the frogs you really want...no sense in buying the cheapest frog you can find if you don't love them. Another thing to consider is that some cheap frogs are going to be "farm-raised" imports...maybe not the best choice for someone just starting out. Paying a little more for healthy cb frogs from a respected breeder is a good way to have a positive experience in the hobby.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Cheap isn't worth it if you don't get a quality, healthy animal, and if you don't get the one you really want.  Trying to get in contact with a local is the best way to save shipping, but again, if you're always looking for the cheap way out, this may be a short-lived hobby for you.

Pat


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

Field beat me to it, and said it better


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

$60 is outrageous. in the reefing hobby, there were no box charges, even though there were just about the same amount of packing for fish/corals as frogs, if not more. i'm confused as to how a $30 shipping charge ends up being $60, even with the cost of packing materials. the business should definitely be paying for the packing stuff. idk though, i guess it's already an established rule of trade in this hobby.


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## 19jeffro83 (Sep 5, 2011)

+1 to Curley. Why would it cost more to ship a frog than any marine life. 
Temp ranges in marine life are smaller and more crucial, you have to have a watertight container/bag and you need water. Which equals weight. Unless there is a half day delivery service, why would the shipping be almost double?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

curlykid said:


> $60 is outrageous. in the reefing hobby, there were no box charges, even though there were just about the same amount of packing for fish/corals as frogs, if not more. i'm confused as to how a $30 shipping charge ends up being $60, even with the cost of packing materials. the business should definitely be paying for the packing stuff. idk though, i guess it's already an established rule of trade in this hobby.


Hey Nick you have never shipped frogs. They are more sensitive to extended times in shipping. USPS is infamous for late shipments. That leaves FedEx or USPS as better choices. Frogs are more sensitive to changing temperatures than coral frags. I know first hand. I have shipped a good number of frogs, but under the name Colorado Coral Farms, I shipped many hundreds of corals over the last 10 years.
I absolutely will NOT ship my frogs through USPS. Now I have to keep the temperatures very stable too. This means extra weight being shipped because of the Phase 22 packs that should be used. You also have to take the cost of the Phase 22 packs into account. In adverse weather, this can mean up to $30 spent on Phase 22 packs. That can be handled as a deposit but it still entails more weight being shipped. An overnight package of frogs sent through FedEx can easily cost $50 or $60 WITH a FedEx account, and that is without charging a box charge or Phase 22 packs.
$60 to ship frogs is absolutely NOT out of line or outrageous. It is what is costs to get the job done right. Since getting back into frogs I have not lost a single frog to shipping because I package them carefully and ship them the way I believe will keep them safe and alive. Would you rather have a shipment of dead frogs, or pay a little more money to be able to sleep at night knowing that everything possible has been done to insure a healthy, live, delivery?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

19jeffro83 said:


> +1 to Curley. Why would it cost more to ship a frog than any marine life.
> Temp ranges in marine life are smaller and more crucial, you have to have a watertight container/bag and you need water. Which equals weight. Unless there is a half day delivery service, why would the shipping be almost double?


Not true. You would be surprised at how cold many coral shipments are when they arrive at your local fish shop. As an ex coral farmer I have been there for many.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

curlykid said:


> $60 is outrageous. in the reefing hobby, there were no box charges, even though there were just about the same amount of packing for fish/corals as frogs, if not more. i'm confused as to how a $30 shipping charge ends up being $60, even with the cost of packing materials. the business should definitely be paying for the packing stuff. idk though, i guess it's already an established rule of trade in this hobby.


Depending on where you live in relation to the seller, the size and the weight of the box and whether you are shipping from a residence all affects the price. 
In the past when I've had stuff shipped to me by another hobbyist I've had shipping quotes as high as $70 and as low as $40 due to those variables. Since many of us are hobbyists we can't get a business discount since we ship from a residence or spread the cost across multiple customers which is why the cost is high. To make a blanket statement on how much it should cost isn't responsible or realistic. 

I've charged a deposit for the packing materials since I had to purchase my styrofoams and phase 22 shipping panels, however I will refund it if the materials are sent back to me via USPS. I've had less (much less) than 50% of the people opt to return them to me (actually three people). 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

curlykid said:


> $60 is outrageous. in the reefing hobby, there were no box charges, even though there were just about the same amount of packing for fish/corals as frogs, if not more. i'm confused as to how a $30 shipping charge ends up being $60, even with the cost of packing materials. the business should definitely be paying for the packing stuff. idk though, i guess it's already an established rule of trade in this hobby.


$60 is about standard for what the shipping companies charge to ship my smallest insulated box to most of the U.S. I believe the lowest quote I ever got was for a shipment about 400 miles away at something like $37. If someone is quoting an overnight shipping cost of $30 they are almost absolutely taking a loss on the shipping.

If you look at the way different merchants/hobbyists charge, usually the overall prices are pretty similar. They may charge less for shipping, but more for the frogs or vice-versa. Some incorporate the cost of packing supplies into the other costs while others charge separately. Some offer a refund upon return of packing materials. Every now an then a hobbyist will find himself with an abundance of frogs and have a fire sale. I prefer transparency, so I post the frogs for a specific price, I charge shipping exactly as it's quoted, and I have a set price for phase change packing that is refundable. I like just being straightforward about cost, but I know that if I charge $20 less for shipping, then tack on $5 a frog, I would probably make more sales, and net the same profit per sale. There's a whole study on why that is, but basically, even though we can total it up, our brain still tells us $20>$5 so that's the better deal.

As far as packing materials, I don't know how corals are packed, but phase change panels/pillows are expensive and reusable. If a trend is emerging, it's for sellers to charge for the cost of them (well, typically less), then refund that cost upon return. Be that as it may, buyers in my experience, typically choose to keep the phase change panels/pillows for their own use. 

To the original poster, there are deals to be had but more often than naught you get what you pay for. When comparing costs, make sure and do all the math. Very few people ever got rich selling frogs, and no one has done it by padding shipping costs. Also, if you ever find a safe way to send frogs overnight across the country for 30 bucks, please let me know.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

am i the only one who remembers not too long go with the gas price spike the fedex quotes of $100-140 coast to coast? thats just shipping (no packing materials)

thankfully, its gone back down some but w/o a business account i'd say $60-100 is not unusual. 

james


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Unless things have changed in the last two years since I got out of corals, Phase Change materials remain unheard of in the reef tank hobby. I have been on both the shipping end, and the receiving end of many hundreds of shipments and never once saw Phase Change materials being used.

While it is possible to ship a small box through USPS for around $35 I will never ship frogs through USPS again. Cheap shipping is not always as cheap as you think. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68064-cheap-shipping-too-good-true.html


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

james67 said:


> am i the only one who remembers not too long go with the gas price spike the fedex quotes of $100-140 coast to coast? thats just shipping (no packing materials)
> 
> thankfully, its gone back down some but w/o a business account i'd say $60-100 is not unusual.
> 
> james


That must have been while I was "between" corals and frogs, James. Glad I missed that!!


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## Monk (Dec 3, 2011)

I just received a shipment from the west coast to midwest , the cost was $34.00 USPS to ship . These were rare anoles which weigh more than frogs . The size and weight of the package determines the cost . It can be done safely and less expensive if not looking for a markup in fees !


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Monk said:


> I just received a shipment from the west coast to midwest , the cost was $34.00 USPS to ship . These were rare anoles which weigh more than frogs . The size and weight of the package determines the cost . It can be done safely and less expensive if not looking for a markup in fees !


USPS which most froggers are uncomfortable shipping with. also your talking apples to oranges with anoles to darts.

when your sending out frogs and its on YOU to ensure live arrival, you'd sing a different song, i assure you. ive had a lot of deals fall through because buyers didnt want to pay shipping, but if something goes wrong they've lost nothing, so you have to respect that the seller will choose the shipping method THEY feel most comfortable with. buyers can take it or leave it.

james


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Monk said:


> I just received a shipment from the west coast to midwest , the cost was $34.00 USPS to ship . These were rare anoles which weigh more than frogs . The size and weight of the package determines the cost . It can be done safely and less expensive if not looking for a markup in fees !


Or could it be if not so desperate for a sale that you don't care if the animals die. Here we have three members that only joined in 2011, that are downright bashing experienced members who actually care that the animals get there safely! The last post is actually accusing shippers of outright theft? You are out of line sir! We are speaking about ACTUAL SHIPPING CHARGES. I, for one, am willing to show my shipping invoice to anybody ordering from me. I use FedEx because I care about the animals. If I used USPS I could drive about a mile to drop them off. Instead, I ship as late as possible so the frogs are in a box for as little time as possible. This means an hour and a half driving to the FedEx hub through Denver Rush Hour traffic. This is not a convenience. It is for the frogs. And again, your accusations of marking the price up to $6o shipping only shows your ignorance. I have NEVER made ONE RED CENT off of shipping and in fact will often take a loss. You are out of line.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> I have NEVER made ONE RED CENT off of shipping and in fact will often take a loss.


Yep, same here.

It seems like a lot of people who have never shipped frogs have some very definite opinions on how in can be done safely and cheaply. 

Look at it pragmatically. Because of the competition, it's in a sellers best interest to charge the least he can for shipping. Shipping is expensive enough, the market won't support padding. Something else that should be noted. When we say FedEx, most of us are using SYR through FedEx or our own business account and are actually charging less than if the average guy shipped the same package via FedEx.

And, yes, I remember well when gas prices caused shipping prices to spike a few years ago. I remember shipping a small package to the east coast for $130 bucks. Ugh.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Monk said:


> I just received a shipment from the west coast to midwest , the cost was $34.00 USPS to ship . These were rare anoles which weigh more than frogs . The size and weight of the package determines the cost . It can be done safely and less expensive if not looking for a markup in fees !


Not if you want to know where you package is at all times... USPS tracking leaves a lot to be desired as I've actually had packages arrive while USPS tracking was still showing them to be waiting to be picked up..
If you search the forum, there are many more complaints about animals or packages being lost or delayed by USPS than any other carrier.. they all have thier problems but the complaint level seems to be highest through USPS.. I personally won't ship live animals via USPS and will not choose that as an option for frogs etc being shipped to me.. for a number of reasons including those above. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

(yoda voice) "These young ones know not of what the speak, Hmmm?"
At least one of you knows better than to call all your peers a bunch of thieves. I respectfully request that you read through the post and my referred thread. Do the research regarding the TRUE COST of shipping through FedEx, then do the research online about which shipping company loses the most packages and is late more often than any other, and post the appropriate reply. I'm calling you out. Research, THEN post.
In the end, if you really think it's worth the risk of getting dead frogs, to save $25 bucks in shipping, then you are entitled to your opinion. But you are STILL out of line for calling your peers a bunch of thieves. Shipping costs are what they are. We are NOT marking it up. If anything, we lose money on shipping.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I just had the original cover for my kindle fire arrive today.. It has been at the Philadelphia hub for several weeks now.. It was gone long enough that Amazon.com had sent me a replacement (which arrived promptly and on time).. 

Ed


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

curlykid said:


> $60 is outrageous. in the reefing hobby, there were no box charges, even though there were just about the same amount of packing for fish/corals as frogs, if not more. i'm confused as to how a $30 shipping charge ends up being $60, even with the cost of packing materials. the business should definitely be paying for the packing stuff. idk though, i guess it's already an established rule of trade in this hobby.





19jeffro83 said:


> +1 to Curley. Why would it cost more to ship a frog than any marine life.
> Temp ranges in marine life are smaller and more crucial, you have to have a watertight container/bag and you need water. Which equals weight. Unless there is a half day delivery service, why would the shipping be almost double?


Really, you guys haven't seen the $70-100 shipping quotes on Reef2Reef or any of those sites? Im surprised, they're everywhere, and are usually a $50 minimum on reef2reef in particular. 

The funny thing is, those people on those reef sites are using USPS and pocketing the difference....... at least on this site, you're paying the actual cost for a better shipping service and Phase 22 packs. Keep using USPS during winter time, and I'll put dollars down that you lose some frogs in transit eventually.

Frogs do not equal corals.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I just had the original cover for my kindle fire arrive today.. It has been at the Philadelphia hub for several weeks now.. It was gone long enough that Amazon.com had sent me a replacement (which arrived promptly and on time)..
> 
> Ed


Anybody want to place a bet that it was shipped USPS? I could use some easy money.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Anybody want to place a bet that it was shipped USPS? I could use some easy money.


I'll bet it was shipped USPS... 
I can always use some easy money... 
Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'd like to point out one other thing as someone who was on the forefront of coral farming. I was farming coral more than a dozen years ago. Cold as it may seem, losing a coral frag is no big thing for the farmer. It's only a trimming. It's like losing a branch off of your tree. It's going to grow back. It's no big thing. Yes, it's a live animal but in a very different way. It has no personality and it's just different. When a frag dies, it's not the whole animal dying. It is only a cutting. A branch. A twig. It will grow back and it is easily replaced. 
That said, yes, I took the proper precautions to keep my animals alive, you can't farm coral and not love the reefs because it is a LOT of work to try to make a dollar farming coral.
But there is no denying that a coral farmer can afford to choose the cheaper shipping. A three day late shipment of coral is easily replaced. Especially since not one coral farmer out there covers the price of replacement shipping. Some of the best may offer to throw in a couple extra frags to help make up the price of repeat shipping.
It doesn't end there though. It's not just about the cost. Can you remember the excitement you feel when you are opening that box with your new baby froggys? If you can't, they you are in the wrong hobby. Now have you EVER opened that box to find your new babies dead? It is heartbreaking on both ends I assure you. A box of dead corals is disappointing too, but it is not the same. It just isn't.
These are the reasons that I ship FedEx and if you can't see that you will never be buying corals from me.

If it seems like I am taking this a little personally, I am. I pride myself on my shipping practices and if you look over my feedback you will see that my results reflect that.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'll bet it was shipped USPS...
> I can always use some easy money...
> Ed


Nobody's taking us up on that, Ed.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

My personal reason for using the more expensive Fedex:

I shipped a Patricia tinc to a member here about 2 months ago. I wanted to ship via Fedex, but let him talk me into using USPS overnight. I shipped with styro box, and two phase packs, with temps not going below 50 degrees. After riding around in the truck all day, by the time it got to him, the frog was not moving and appeared dead. I got lucky, and it started hopping around after warming up. With FedEx *hold for pickup* I can pretty much guarantee this would NOT have happened.

As a result, I will only use Fedex *hold at facility* every summer and every winter, if you don't like it, you can buy from someone else or wait till spring. 

When I'm on the buyer's end (which is more often than I'd like to admit), I typically DEMAND FedEx over USPS, $25-30 extra is worth the guarantee that my frogs make it alive. I've had a few bad experiences buying w/ USPS shipping (one with frogs, several with fish/corals), but haven't had even one bad experience with FedEx hold..... getting dead animals in the mail sucks. The shipper/seller money, you lose time, and the animals lose their lives.


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## Monk (Dec 3, 2011)

Anoles are not cheap and are delicate as well . $ 300.00 a pair . I have been buying them for over twenty years . When I first started DHL was the way and only way to ship reptiles . Obviously things have changed . Apparently Fed Ex is now the way to go from what I gather on this board . Regardless of carrier there are certain days that are best to ship than others as I have had animals DOA myself .
How much would you charge to send a "12 x "10 x " 8 " 1.5 LBS styrafoam box sent across country ?
I used to ship products around the globe using Ups .. Fed Ex .. DHL..BAX and every shipping method there is for my job .. I have to admit I am not up to date on all of these methods but I do know it is not as costly as stated in above post if you know how to pack and ship small animals .
I was turned on to this board from a dart and tree frog breeder in the midwest who would agree with me on shipping charges . 
Please do not harm the messenger . Research .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can go to here Ship Your Reptiles - Ship Live Reptiles Easily, Securely and Affordably and get a quote through one of the methods used by the hobby... or you can go the fed ex or ups site and do the same thing. 

Many of us pack more securely to make sure the animal arrives safely in the case of something happening which is going to bump the shipping rates up. When I give someone a quote, I'll copy them the quote from the page and give them the dimesions and weight so they can double check to make sure that is the same cost if they choose. 

I prefer to not waste the effort and time that I've put into an animal or will put into an animal by cutting corners to save a couple of bucks. 

I can remember when the only real routes to ship animals was via air cargo (Delta and USAIR) or USPS....... well before the other shippers became well established.. On this tangent does the Peterson Field Guide to Reptiles and Amphibians of the Eastern USA still have the chapters on shipping herps? 

Ed


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Monk said:


> How much would you charge to send a "12 x "10 x " 8 " 1.5 LBS styrafoam box sent across country ?


Check ShipYourReptiles for those dimensions, then add in $5 for two Phase 22 packs (what they cost me), and that's what I would charge you for that size box.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tclipse said:


> Check ShipYourReptiles for those dimensions, then add in $5 for two Phase 22 packs (what they cost me), and that's what I would charge you for that size box.


You'd need to increase the weight since the phase change packs are significant in a package that small. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Monk said:


> Anoles are not cheap and are delicate as well . $ 300.00 a pair . I have been buying them for over twenty years . When I first started DHL was the way and only way to ship reptiles . Obviously things have changed . Apparently Fed Ex is now the way to go from what I gather on this board . Regardless of carrier there are certain days that are best to ship than others as I have had animals DOA myself .
> How much would you charge to send a "12 x "10 x " 8 " 1.5 LBS styrafoam box sent across country ?
> I used to ship products around the globe using Ups .. Fed Ex .. DHL..BAX and every shipping method there is for my job .. I have to admit I am not up to date on all of these methods but I do know it is not as costly as stated in above post if you know how to pack and ship small animals .
> I was turned on to this board from a dart and tree frog breeder in the midwest who would agree with me on shipping charges .
> Please do not harm the messenger . Research .


The messenger has arrived outright calling us thieves. The messenger said


Monk said:


> It can be done safely and less expensive if not looking for a markup in fees !


The messenger went beyond saying that there are cheaper (and less effective) methods of shipping if you use USPS and simply HOPE they will get there alive. Went beyond, crossed the line, and accused those of us with the best shipping practices here, of being thieves. Now you are asking us to do your research.


Monk said:


> How much would you charge to send a "12 x "10 x " 8 " 1.5 LBS styrafoam box sent across country ?
> I used to ship products around the globe using Ups .. Fed Ex .. DHL..BAX and every shipping method there is for my job .. I have to admit I am not up to date on all of these methods but I do know it is not as costly as stated in above post if you know how to pack and ship small animals .


We have done our research. Get on the Fedex site and punch in the numbers yourself. And your weight is way off. It is COLD in much of the country right now. Add in the weight of AT LEAST 4 to 6 Phase paks. 
How can you admit to not being up to date on these methods but in the same sentence KNOW that it doesn't cost that much?
We have pointed out why it costs that much and invited you to check the numbers yourself. You come back repeating that we are thieves and are marking up the prices?
You do your research, sir.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> You'd need to increase the weight since the phase change packs are significant in a package that small.
> 
> Ed


Ed, the weight makes no difference with that size package (at least under ~5lbs or so, I'm not sure where the cutoff ends but it is a flat rate up to a certain weight)


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## Dave II (Dec 18, 2011)

I know that im new here but wanted to say this. Shipping is what it is. Do the research of how the seller ships. Then opt to pay it or not, shipping costs are not totally decided by the seller but im sure the better ones know what they are doing! If you cant trust them dont order from them. Also, thanks for some advice on the heat pacjs used for frogs, im in the reefing industry and we ship things out and even deliver to other states, this is very helpful


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## SMenigoz (Feb 17, 2004)

Its been an interesting thread that comes up every few years or so. A new person joins the board and makes some inflamitory statements that "we" are trying to inflate the cost of shipping for profit. Two points:
1) How I ship-- I've never sacrificed weight/box size to shave a few bucks off the cost to ship. There's a live animal in there, and I'll do MY part as the shipper to see it gets the best chance for live arrival. I charge exactly what the carrier charges me to ship; I eat the cost of the box, heat packs, double foam, gasoline to travel to the ship site. 

2) Let the buyer select the carrier and risk-- I will guarantee live arrival if my method of delivery is selected. I do not offer this for other carriers. Some buyers are comfortable accepting the risk; some can only think of the $. About 20 years in the animal hobby has taught me where money is well-spent... people may have to learn this lesson the hard way themselves.
Scott


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ what Scott said 

I dont know a single PDF hobbyist who inflates shipping/ or makes money on it....

thats just plain silly to even say or consider.

Personally I ship with Fedex, through SYR mainly b/c I can buy their in house live arrival insurance, they are Fedex approved for live animals [other carriers are not, so are you lying about what is in your boxes???  ], and I can track Fedex, use SYR customer support if there is a problem and they will fix it with Fedex, and I can get a discount with SYR due to volume of shipping.


S


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

BTW,

If you want to waive all claims to live arrival.....

I'll ship whatever cheaper way you want me to...

Dont come crying if your 35$ shipping, costs you 300$ in frogs though...

S


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Okay, so a lot of people were offended by my comment. I was more trying to point out that $60 _is_ and outrageous price for shipping, rather than the packing of the frogs. It's just strange to me that a big business can't eat the cost of the packing supplies.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Thats the point you are missing....

This is a HOBBY for most, not a business....no write offs, or tax credits

Also, the 60, 70, 80$$ is actual shipping NOT SUPPLIES

Understand?


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Okay, i understand. i think i misunderstood the comment i replied to. it was my assumption that they meant it was $30 and then a $30 box charge. And I told Doug (Pumilo) that i did only mean businesses, who make a profit, and that business should have the responsibility to take risk on that profit. I don't like arguing on forums though so lets just leave it at this: my comment was a little out of line, but i did have valid points, and so did everyone else's.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Shawn can attest to this, recently I had a disaster, 3 boxes all USPS which ships via Fed-Ex, that Monday night Fed-Ex had a shut down due to heavy snow, for several hours their operations were suspended (quite obviously with my 3 boxes out in that snow storm), all 3 of mine arrived on time however, heck 1 box was early and 2 were to warm weather locale's however all 3 boxes were near frozen and contained dead frogs. I used big gel packs and not phase 22 nor did I have any heat packs, if I had looked at the weather in Memphis I would have seen a potential problem.
My question is this if the frogs arrive in time and are dead who is responsible, the shipper! I had to replace them and reship at my cost (which a couple said was not necessary but when is it not necessary to do the right thing?). Somebody going a little extra to ensure live arrival is something no one should complain about, I don't know of anyone making $$ on shipping but getting boxes of dead frogs is REALLY expensive for the shipper when they replace animals so doing it right up front is imperative.
Sometimes you can get lucky when you say cheap, sombody just wants to dump quickly for a variety of reasons but in most cases you get what you pay for. Ask any large animal dealer..live arrival gaurentee for frogs? Usually your crazy is the response, we as a community are different and a higher standard and expectation are in place. Do what you want but hard lessons are best learned and getting that info from someone else is a lot cheaper for you!!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

The first time I shipped frogs, I got my quote from the FedEx page. 50+ bucks for the estimated wt of the package and distance to be shipped. When I went to FedEx to ship, it was actually 85 bucks. Seems I forgot to add in the dimensions of the box, lol. Sooo, anyway, yea the shipping, just the shipping, can be very expensive. Especially if you are a noob.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

ouch, mark. that's why i always make sure to tell the seller my conditions before they ship. it's a good alternative to trial & error, it's free and it saves money and time for both sides!  hope the other one's turned out fine?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

curlykid said:


> Okay, i understand. i think i misunderstood the comment i replied to. it was my assumption that they meant it was $30 and then a $30 box charge. And I told Doug (Pumilo) that i did only mean businesses, who make a profit, and that business should have the responsibility to take risk on that profit. I don't like arguing on forums though so lets just leave it at this: my comment was a little out of line, but i did have valid points, and so did everyone else's.


Nick, you're still not quite hitting the hammer on the head. $60 in shipping may SEEM expensive to you and that's fine, but the points that you and others have brought up are mistaken. When somebody quotes $60 in shipping that is because that is what *FedEx* charges, not us. You need to remember too, that NO BUSINESS ANYWHERE has ever provided free shipping. Those that seem to, have simply hidden the price in the merchandise you are buying. Also, as Shawn pointed out, it's usually not a business, it's a hobby. Your comments (among others) are crucifying the breeders (us). If you don't like the price of shipping, complain that FedEx is expensive and you may see a few of agree with you. But don't complain that your fellow hobbyists are marking up shipping prices and charging too much because it simply isn't true.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

john61510 said:


> anyone know? Brian's tropicals had the cheapest shipping at $35 but not a big variety maybe 4-5 frogs


John, I completely understand how exciting this hobby can be. I myself have spent countless hours drooling over all the frogs available waiting for one to hop up and claim it's position as the next frog in my collection. However, and please do not take this the wrong way, but it seems from your original post that I quoted above that you are looking to get some more frogs real soon. If I could offer a little piece of advice after reading through your other threads, it would be to slow down just a touch and maybe look for some vendors with cheaper viv building supplies first. I am only concerned as you have some work to do on your current tank already housing frogs and before you order more frogs, you should really get another tank put together that way you don't find yourself sacrificing the well being of your animals because you do not have enough money to set them up with a proper enclosure. Good luck in the hobby and remember go slow, have fun, and hopefully you will find that building a little piece of the jungle in your house is just as rewarding as watching the frogs enjoy it!


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Nick, you're still not quite hitting the hammer on the head. $60 in shipping may SEEM expensive to you and that's fine, but the points that you and others have brought up are mistaken. When somebody quotes $60 in shipping that is because that is what *FedEx* charges, not us. You need to remember too, that NO BUSINESS ANYWHERE has ever provided free shipping. Those that seem to, have simply hidden the price in the merchandise you are buying. Also, as Shawn pointed out, it's usually not a business, it's a hobby. Your comments (among others) are crucifying the breeders (us). If you don't like the price of shipping, complain that FedEx is expensive and you may see a few of agree with you. But don't complain that your fellow hobbyists are marking up shipping prices and charging too much because it simply isn't true.


ohmylaud! do i have to say this again? box charges- businesses should be paying this themselves. we the hobbyists can charge it because we are not making a profit for a business. businesses: pay box charges themselves, and charge us for shipping. hobbyists/small breeders: charge for shipping & box charges because we are not businesses. so doug, no i'm not crucifying anyone but the businesses who charge for packaging materials. so please, this is going way too far, and shouldn't be this big. everyone stop because it's really stupid considering we're not even on the same page.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

Shawn ,

You said it best 

"If you want to waive all claims to live arrival....."

"I'll ship whatever cheaper way you want me to..."

"Dont come crying if your 35$ shipping, costs you 300$ in frogs though..."

I have bred corals, fish, and frogs, shipped them all. Shipping is expensive if done correctly.
Everyone who wants it cheap is usually not a client who I want to deal with. This hobby is NOT cheap. My frog vary from 50-700 a piece, and when your dealing with what you put into your animals, your committment, your personal time I am very concerned about my animals. If your worried about 30 vs 60 dollars, in shipping, find another hobby. I hate being so blunt, but frogs (captive bred) are harder to replace than a wholesaler / retailer whose mark up covers losses. Or getting cheap boxes from other deals, instead of making your own, which costs way more. 
If someone wants cheap shipping I would charge retail, which is not what is done here.

Example on the board: azureus 35. plus shipping. From a local store near me, my froglets are 69.99 plus 35 shipping. Also I don't have a retail account which give me cheaper shiping for weekly shipments,. And the store has to buy minimum of 6 frogs which means bigger discounts.
I in no way enjoy shipping charges, they suck, but they are part of this. If someone knows how to ship for 35 bucks, next day arrival 100% by 10 am. Anywhere in the continental US please let me know. Fedex works currently well for me. 

So to all who can do this better than me, I need 100 live arrival within usually 14-16 hours.
By 10:30 am the next day. Don't whine about how much it costs please give guys like myself, Shawn, or anyone, a viable real alternative. I am typing this to argue just interested in knowing.

Thanks for reading,
Daryl Szyska
Daryl34


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

would ya'll stop beating a dead horse? i'm one of many who knows that quality comes with a price. now we're just insulting eachother, it's not even a good healthy debate anymore.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Monk said:


> Anoles are not cheap and are delicate as well . $ 300.00 a pair . I have been buying them for over twenty years . When I first started DHL was the way and only way to ship reptiles . Obviously things have changed . Apparently Fed Ex is now the way to go from what I gather on this board . Regardless of carrier there are certain days that are best to ship than others as I have had animals DOA myself .
> How much would you charge to send a "12 x "10 x " 8 " 1.5 LBS styrafoam box sent across country ?
> I used to ship products around the globe using Ups .. Fed Ex .. DHL..BAX and every shipping method there is for my job .. I have to admit I am not up to date on all of these methods but I do know it is not as costly as stated in above post if you know how to pack and ship small animals .
> I was turned on to this board from a dart and tree frog breeder in the midwest who would agree with me on shipping charges .
> Please do not harm the messenger . Research .


No offense, but you're wrong.

I could as easily as you plug those numbers into UPS/FedEx/SYR free quote generator, but without actual zip codes it's pretty meaningless. That number could vary wildly depending on the expected temperatures and the packing needed to anticipate those. You've set up a shipping standard that rarely applies. First of all, with phase change packs a 12"x10"x8" box is going to weigh at least double that, more if the weather is inclement. Also, your friend in the Midwest is centrally located. That's nice, but it has nothing to do with those of us shipping from the coasts. There are also a few "overnight" options, is your assumption that the package would be sent by anything other than "priority overnight"? 

Here is a recent shipping scenario. I'm in CA. I had a buyer in MO order 5 small frogs a few months ago. Based on the size box (7"x7"x6" 3lb) that I would have shipped those in I got a shipping quote of $53.30 and charged that amount. I also charge $10 (refundable upon return) for the packing (which incidentally cost me $12). It took a while until we could coordinate shipping and by the time we could the weather had changed drastically. by the time I shipped the packages, I had to use a larger, better insulated box, more phase change material and a heat pack.

So I charged $53.30 (shipping) + $10 (phase22) = $63.30

Shipping cost me $73.01 (shipping) + $5 (shipping insurance) + $15 (phase22 panels) + $1.50 (heat pack) = $94.51

I lost $31.21 on shipping alone on a frog order itself that was only $100. That means I made much less per frog than what I wholesale them locally for. I also had to drive the frogs an hour away to drop them off at the shipping hub. That's not typical, but neither is it unusual. I typically lose less than that on a sale, but even if the shipping goes exactly as expected I still lose about 5 bucks on shipping on average. To date, I haven't had anyone return the gel packs for refund and really why would they? They are getting them cheaper than I get them and I buy in bulk.

Which is why it's a bit insulting when you come here and say that shipping is a rip-off and if we did our research it could be much cheaper. If you haven't shipped an animal in 5 years, then you have no concept of what shipping costs. If you haven't done research on how to ship darts safely, then you have no concept what that costs. If you haven't had your options narrowed by compliance with the Lacey Act in order to LEGALLY ship animals, then you have no concept of the cost. 

I don't charge what I do for shipping because I'm fleecing buyers. I don't charge what I do because I'm inept and haven't explored the options. I charge what I do because that is what it costs to legally and safely ship dart frogs, and realistically it actually costs more.

Research that.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

As someone who has shipped out a lot of frogs, I just wanted to address the point about the frogs not being very heavy. When shipping FedEx Priority Overnight, the package is typically shipped based on dimensional weight - the package may only weigh 1 lb, but it's going to ship as if it was heavier, and cost more. We actually buy boxes based on size in an attempt to save the customer on shipping . . .

As far as box charges, as long as they are reasonable (ie the cost of materials), I don't see what's wrong with it. For instance, I shipped out some frogs last week. After the box, styrofoam, heat pack, 2 phase 22 panels, and 3 gel packs, I doubt the box charge covered all the packing materials used. As far as 'big business' eating the box costs, what 'big business' is selling frogs? JoshsFrogs is up to 8 employees now, but I hardly think that qualifies us as 'big business'.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

curlykid said:


> would ya'll stop beating a dead horse? i'm one of many who knows that quality comes with a price. now we're just insulting eachother, it's not even a good healthy debate anymore.


I think you're missing the fact that people have been insulted by your comments since you entered this thread. 

Another thing- using shipping prices in the dead of winter is not the best yardstick to measure by..... spring and fall shipping is considerably cheaper since smaller styro boxes and less phase 22s need be used.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

tclipse said:


> Ed, the weight makes no difference with that size package (at least under ~5lbs or so, I'm not sure where the cutoff ends but it is a flat rate up to a certain weight)


That cutoff is dependent on the size. Try quoting a 7x7x6 box and I think the first jump is between 2 and 3 lbs.

Curly, don't take it personally, I don't think most of these comments are directed at you. It's good that the subject comes up, because you know what? $60 IS expensive. 10 years ago the same package cost $35 to send. People are also used to spotting rip-offs and if they don't know better, it's not crazy to assume there is some padding going on. I'm glad when the subject comes up and people can throw some real numbers out there and offer some transparency.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Boondoggle said:


> That cutoff is dependent on the size. Try quoting a 7x7x6 box and I think the first jump is between 2 and 3 lbs.


Oh I know, as mentioned in the post it was referring to *that size package,* and for reference the cutoff is at 7 lbs. Makes sense- With most smaller packages it starts sooner so they can make more $$$ off of us.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Please allow me to sum this thread up succinctly ...

If you're looking for "Cheap", you are looking at the wrong hobby.

s


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

when i see someone see something that offends me or doesn't look right to me, i either try to help or i keep my mouth shut. i don't continue to make rude comments and start fights with people. if i say something you don't like, tell me quietly in a private message, and i'll either edit the comment or i'll make a public apology. i am a very nice person, but i do not let people walk all over me, which is exactly what some people are doing. i would like to be friends with everyone on this forum, but it is very hard when some continue to insult and shun myself, and others. and it's very unsettling to see some of the more experienced members take part in it. (not pointing fingers at anyone here, but they know who they are). it's even worse when I make a public apology, and people continue to say rude things. i come to this forum to learn, to socialize, and most importantly to help people. i do not come to forums to fight, argue, and insult. my comment was not meant to offend anyone, but obviously people took it the wrong way and started something way bigger than it needed to be. this is a very sincere apology from myself letting everyone know that everything i said was wrong and that i will no longer take part in discussion in this thread. it is the wrong of your own being if you continue on with this.

EDIT: and yes Scott. a very good summary indeed.


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## SNAKEMANVET (Dec 14, 2011)

I haven't bought any frogs yet.But I am use to paying the average cost of overnite shipping.I have bought corals or fish for $20.00 and paying $60 to $75.00 to have it shipped.Like mentioned before no way will I ship a live animal through usps.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

curlykid said:


> when i see someone see something that offends me or doesn't look right to me, i either try to help or i keep my mouth shut. i don't continue to make rude comments and start fights with people. if i say something you don't like, tell me quietly in a private message, and i'll either edit the comment or i'll make a public apology. i am a very nice person, but i do not let people walk all over me, which is exactly what some people are doing. i would like to be friends with everyone on this forum, but it is very hard when some continue to insult and shun myself, and others. and it's very unsettling to see some of the more experienced members take part in it. (not pointing fingers at anyone here, but they know who they are). it's even worse when I make a public apology, and people continue to say rude things. i come to this forum to learn, to socialize, and most importantly to help people. i do not come to forums to fight, argue, and insult. my comment was not meant to offend anyone, but obviously people took it the wrong way and started something way bigger than it needed to be. this is a very sincere apology from myself letting everyone know that everything i said was wrong and that i will no longer take part in discussion in this thread. it is the wrong of your own being if you continue on with this.
> 
> EDIT: and yes Scott. a very good summary indeed.


I'm really missing where people were being rude or insulting you.... unless some posts were cleaned up from the thread? Someone said that your comments were out of line and he was clearly offended/thought you were trying to call us thieves, and that's all that was said, no one's out to crucify you.......... that seems just a little melodramatic.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

By the way, my advice to anyone is that if you can purchase a healthy frog from someone reputable and local and avoid shipping, do it. Even when every precaution is taken, there is an element of danger inherent to shipping. I think every person reading this thread that ships would probably give the same advice. Shop local whenever possible. If that's not an option, research sellers and then weigh costs.

It's what we do.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ouch. I believe my hand has been slapped.
Boondoggle, I agree completely. Always try to shop for a local breeder first. Of course you are better off straight through the breeder than in a some shops where new animals are being rotated through without sterilizing the tanks.
Then if you can't get what you want locally, it's up to you what kind of trust you going to put in your sellers shipping methods.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

I am of the opinion that someone had the mindset that is popular today of all business is big business so they must be out to get us! Very sad state of affairs all our leaders have laid out for us.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

Guys I really am sorry. I've been playing around on the FedEx site and I had no idea it was so expensive. Obviously the high price is coming from FedEx and not from any markups. Here are a couple of the rates I found. Colorado to Florida for a 10" square, 3 lb box is $88.41 for Standard Overnight and $88.41 for Priority.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you Nick, FedEx IS expensive but it's the price we have to pay for the safest shipping procedures.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Cheap is as cheap does.

Richard.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

curlykid said:


> Guys I really am sorry. I've been playing around on the FedEx site and I had no idea it was so expensive. Obviously the high price is coming from FedEx and not from any markups.


No worries, Curly. All I heard you saying was that shipping is expensive...and you're right. We all wish it was cheaper, but without cutting corners, it is what it is.


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## Zoomie (Jul 3, 2011)

Interesting post. 

I came from corals to darts with a big gap in between. While most coral shipments were in fact cheaper to ship, I specifically recall 3 different shipments of frags that were extremely limited slow growers (aka ridiculously expensive). The shipper insisted on gel and heat packs with early delivery. Those were 60.00. The shipper was unwilling to send any other way as he wouldn't be able to replace in the event of loss. 

When I got in to frogs, I looked to those that have trod the Dart road for advice. The hobby consensus from those that I believe to be quality breeders was the same. Budget 65.00 for each shipment.

I never got in to frogs to breed and sell them. Froglets are a byproduct of my limited success while caring for my small collection. They are proof of all that I have learned here thus far. I take each froglet's health very seriously and expect the buyer to the same. If someone wants to gamble with their lives by trying less expensive shipping, I can't help but think that the same buyer will gamble on their respective health go-forward at some point to save a few dollars. Personally, I'd prefer that my froglets go to a home where someone puts vibrant health above cost. 

To summarize, are shipping costs brutal ? Absolutely. Sadly, it is part of the cost for we silly people that elect to keep Darts. Lots of people have attempted to reduce shipping costs, including the use of priority mail (shudder). Some have gotten away with it. Far too many have learned the hard way.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> Thank you Nick, FedEx IS expensive but it's the price we have to pay for the safest shipping procedures.


And even the safest isn't that spectacular to begin with-


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Monk said:


> I just received a shipment from the west coast to midwest , the cost was $34.00 USPS to ship . These were rare anoles which weigh more than frogs . The size and weight of the package determines the cost . It can be done safely and less expensive if not looking for a markup in fees !


Who is marking up fees? It costs about $70 to ship an insulated box that is large enough to hold the frogs, heat packs, gel packs, and phase 22 packs. That's without the cost of the actual packs, or the box if you buy them. I've never seen anyone on here charge anything unreasonable for shipping. Maybe YOU should do some research, instead of accusing others on here of theft.


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## NickJR (Jul 28, 2011)

I agree avg cost is 60$..

Although everytime I ship via USPS overnight or got from USPS I have had no problems at all over 20 shipments and avg price of 30-40

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

NickJR said:


> I agree avg cost is 60$..
> 
> Although everytime I ship via USPS overnight or got from USPS I have had no problems at all over 20 shipments and avg price of 30-40
> 
> Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk


The last thing I had sent to me via USPS with a tracking number went into the nearest big hub and disappeared.. I was only able to confirm where it went 5 days after it was supposed to be delivered (that was when the tracking was updated)... 3 months later it was delivered.... I live somewhat out in the rural areas and I have had far more issues with USPS than Fed Ex and UPS combined.. Our postman is good but all of the issues have been before it gets to my post office.... 

Ed


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## Jon Mason (Apr 1, 2011)

Shipping live animals with a live arrival guarantee is costly. No way around it.


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