# Vitamin A Deficiency



## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Two weeks ago I received A 5 month old Bastimentos. The seller has assured me that this frog has regularly eaten both FF and springtails. I have no reason to doubt this as the frog is of a decent size and very active. I noticed that the first time I fed FF's he chased one down, and to my surprise appeared to chomp down on it without using his tounge. He then promptly spat the fly out. Since that incident he has not attempted to eat another fly. I assumed he would eventually regain interest and begin to eat flys again, he has not. He has continued to eat springtails and does not appear to have lost any weight. However, today I noticed that when he is hunting springs it takes him several attempts to successfully snag one with his tounge as his "aim" seems to be a little off. All that I have read points towards a deficiency in Vit A that may cause STS (Short Tounge Syndrome)

So my question is, should I transfer him to a small sterilite QT container and ONLY feed dusted flies or should I look into the supplementation of human grade Vit A? Where would info/instructions on the latter be found?

He is currently being housed in temporary 10 gallon tank with a fair amount of LL and a couple of plants. Temps and humidity are both within the appropriate range. This set up was designed as to make observation and the collection of fecals easier. I failed to send off the fecals in a timely manner. However, due to this latest observation I will be sending them off first thing Monday morning.

For those of you who have taken the time to read this post, I thank you and will be greatly appreciative of any and all help you can offer.

--Wes


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

What kind of flies are you feeding it? Sometimes some of my smaller frogs that have gotten used to wingless ff's hesitate to eat glider or other winged varieties. I have seen the same for frogs I've strictly fed melanogastor to and then fed them hydei, especially smaller frogs. Also, I use human grade vit. A twice a month on all my frogs and recommend it to anyone I talk to about supplementing darts. I would ask the seller what kind of flies and what type/how often supplements were used and mimic it until you feel comfortable making changes.
Just my 2 cents. I'm sure some others will have some input as well.
Good luck, Basti's are awesome frogs!


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Wes,

Hard to say without a lot more evidence as to just exactly what the problem is.

It certainly is possible for it to be STS or an equally debilitating issue.

I would not Q-tine the frog at this point, since it is by itself in a viv and that would only add to the stress.

I would continue to offer very small wingless melanogaster, always dusted every other day, in small managable amounts.

Check your own supps and make sure they are in good condition and you would also be ok to introduce another new different suppliment into your rotation. I recommend Nekton Rep , Rapashy or Dendrocare - all easy to obtain here in the U.S

Keep us posted.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> What kind of flies are you feeding it?



Older, "runted", and wingless


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Wes,
> 
> I would not Q-tine the frog at this point, since it is by itself in a viv and that would only add to the stress.
> 
> ...


I understand the added stress of Q-tine, and my thoughs were that by doing so and eliminating the springs that the frog would be more inclined to eat the flies, I will take your advice and hold off on doing so for now. My supps are good (2months old) however, I will be ordering an additional suppliment tomorrow(repashy ICB), just wish I knew how to get it in the frog! Will the fecals shine some light on this issue or is this something that can only be diagnosed via my observations and reports?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I find that sometimes a frog that isn't used to ffs doesn't like the vitamin dust especially, so you may want to try feeding undusted flies in small numbers. The runtier the better.

Good luck, Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> I find that sometimes a frog that isn't used to ffs doesn't like the vitamin dust especially, so you may want to try feeding undusted flies in small numbers. The runtier the better.
> 
> Good luck, Richard.


This is often true if the frog was used to a different supplement on its food. 

Ed


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> I find that sometimes a frog that isn't used to ffs doesn't like the vitamin dust especially, so you may want to try feeding undusted flies in small numbers. The runtier the better.
> 
> Good luck, Richard.





Ed said:


> This is often true if the frog was used to a different supplement on its food.
> 
> Ed



This makes sense and I will try some undusted flies. However, this does not directly address his lack of ability to efficiently latch on to the food items that the frog is currently eating(springtails)...or is this just be the first small step in getting him to eat flies and eventually dusted flies? I understand that there is not a "quick-fix" to this issue but for those with experience, do I have enough time to take these small steps?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

randommind said:


> This makes sense and I will try some undusted flies. However, this does not directly address his lack of ability to efficiently latch on to the food items that the frog is currently eating(springtails)...or is this just be the first small step in getting him to eat flies and eventually dusted flies? I understand that there is not a "quick-fix" to this issue but for those with experience, do I have enough time to take these small steps?


 
As long as the frog can still ingest flies, it can help. Are you keeping the fruit fly cultures in bright light? What media are you using for them? If you are not using a media with a good carotenoid base, I would add some to it. Fruit flies reared on a carotenoid rich media and kept in bright light do have some level of vitamin A stored in thier eyes. It is a small amount but any little bit helps. 

Ed


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I have had Tincs with STS as well as numerous finicky frogs that spit out dusted flies. They all survive and were not that difficult to work with.

Even if the frog spits out a dusted fly, it is still able to capture a portion of the suppliment in it's mouth - so the benefit is stil there. We see this with pumilio froglets that are too small to ingest the fly, but benefit from the amount of powder that gets transfered to them, when they hit and release or drop the dusted fly.

As long as there is decent body size and prey insects elicit a feeding response from the frog, things are stable and you have time.

I personally, would still attempt to introduce small dusted flies at almost every feeding. Sooner or later, the frog will turn onto them.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Ed said:


> As long as the frog can still ingest flies, it can help. Are you keeping the fruit fly cultures in bright light? What media are you using for them? If you are not using a media with a good carotenoid base, I would add some to it. Fruit flies reared on a carotenoid rich media and kept in bright light do have some level of vitamin A stored in thier eyes. It is a small amount but any little bit helps.
> 
> Ed


I am using Nabors media and have not been keeping them in a bright light but I will be doing so from now on with a few cultures.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> As long as the frog can still ingest flies, it can help. Are you keeping the fruit fly cultures in bright light? What media are you using for them? If you are not using a media with a good carotenoid base, I would add some to it. Fruit flies reared on a carotenoid rich media and kept in bright light do have some level of vitamin A stored in thier eyes. It is a small amount but any little bit helps.
> 
> Ed


Ed,

Do you know of anyone using sweet potato or carrots in their FF media as a way to increase carotenid content, and if so what have been the results to date? Still trying to figure out my "ideal" FF formula moving forward.

Roman


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Ed,
> 
> Do you know of anyone using sweet potato or carrots in their FF media as a way to increase carotenid content, and if so what have been the results to date? Still trying to figure out my "ideal" FF formula moving forward.
> 
> Roman


Hi Roman,

I use spirulina in mine. I'm trying to minimize breakdown in the uncontrolled bioreactor of a fruit fly culture. A sort of greenish color persists in the cultures until about the third week. I don't count on this as a good method (as all insects are poor sources of vitamin A) but have taken the view that any bit helps. I think it is more important to give the frogs access to several different carotenoids (see the last issue of TWI's Leaf Litter for details) as they also have alternative pathways for the formation of retiniol other than starting with carotenes. 

Ed


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

One of my azureus did a back-flip the first time I switched to Repashy Cal+ICB. I wondered how they'd react to that banana smell. 

The same frog was having similar problems eating, and eventually learned to "scoop" flies instead of striking at them. I gave her flies that had been sitting in the supplement powder for about 20 minutes...eventually the flies get really slow and don't move a lot. When I'd add the flies to her viv, they would be just barely twitching a little bit...enough for her to be interested in them, but they didn't scurry about.

After some extra vitamin A supplementation, her tongue seems to be sticky (albeit still short) and she seems to be able to catch them more easily.

And she did *much* better with another frog in the tank, than without.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

GregF said:


> One of my azureus did a back-flip the first time I switched to Repashy Cal+ICB. I wondered how they'd react to that banana smell.
> 
> The same frog was having similar problems eating, and eventually learned to "scoop" flies instead of striking at them. I gave her flies that had been sitting in the supplement powder for about 20 minutes...eventually the flies get really slow and don't move a lot. When I'd add the flies to her viv, they would be just barely twitching a little bit...enough for her to be interested in them, but they didn't scurry about.
> 
> ...


 
Just so people know, the tongue is not actually shorter in STS (as confirmed on multiple necropsies). It was called that by the keepers who first observed it in Wyoming toads as it looked like the tongue was too short and thus missing the food item. What really happens is that the anuran loses the sticky mucous off of the tongue which prevents it from sticking when it impacts the food item. 

Ed


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

So after several more days of this frog not eating flies, I decided last night to place it in a larger viv with another basti of the same age/size and less of a population of springtails. This morning I added a few dusted flies and the frog came charging, now it wasn't the most graceful attempt at eating flies but he did manage to get a few down. To everyone who replied with information and suggestions, THANK YOU!


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## GregF (Sep 13, 2009)

Very nice!


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