# Homosexual Tincs???



## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

As you know, i have two male Tincs. I am certain they are males due to the shape of the toe discs and the fact that they sometimes appear to be calling but i can't hear anything...anyhow, a while ago i found them sitting close together, in sort of an L-shape on a branch. The larger of the two was gently resting his chin on the smaller one's head, and they had their bodies pressed close together. I thought they were sleeping until i saw a video called Dendrobates tinctorius "Azureus" courting. What i saw in the video was VERY much like what my tincs were doing. I am 99.9% certain that they are both males. My first thought was that they could be homosexual, but i find that *VERY * hard to believe. Also, another thought that i had was that they could be brothers. What do you think?

Here are the reasons why i think they are both males:

1. Their toe discs are flat and heart-shaped.
2. They get along extremely well.
3. When they were huddled together, they were *not* stroking each other or touching cloacae, nor were they gripping each other or attempting to wrestle.
4. There has been no sign of eggs in the terrarium.
5. They are about 1.75 inches long, the females were about 2.15 inches long.

Please tell me what my frogs are doing. I will post pictures if i can.


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

Yep, they are gay. Better sell them quick!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Its natural behavior, nothing to do with sexuality. But funny post.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

How can I break this to you? Um, have you ever been to jail?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a group of three adult female Azureus and one of the females will spend all day courting another female. Sometimes they even end-up in the coco-hut together.

I have seen reports indicating that homosexuality is seen in almost every animal group that has been studied specifically for this trait. For some reason, not a popular topic on the Animal Planet or National Geographic. I wonder why?

Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich,

I was hoping for a more entertaining post.. 

I'm with stemcellular's interpretation. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

A surefire test for this is to watch and see if they are ever doing the arm motions for "YMCA".


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Woodsman said:


> I have a group of three adult female Azureus and one of the females will spend all day courting another female. Sometimes they even end-up in the coco-hut together.
> 
> I have seen reports indicating that homosexuality is seen in almost every animal group that has been studied specifically for this trait. For some reason, not a popular topic on the Animal Planet or National Geographic. I wonder why?
> 
> Richard.


Yep, we have a 1.2 trio of Nikita tincs and the females will frequently get so worked up that they will stroke and court each other to the point that the male just loses interest and leaves them alone...

BTW, anybody that had an extra male Nikita please contact me


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## edwing206 (Apr 9, 2008)

Thilly frogs.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Yep not gay if its a femaless prison....just desperate and lonely.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ed,

In a study of sexual interactions amongst bonobos (our closest relative), 55% of interactions were homosexual, 45% heterosexual.

Homosexual behaviour in animals: an ... - Google Books

I'm not sure if this is the correct link. If not, I'll try to find a better one.

Richard.



Ed said:


> Rich,
> 
> I was hoping for a more entertaining post..
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> In a study of sexual interactions amongst bonobos (our closest relative), 55% of interactions were homosexual, 45% heterosexual.
> 
> ...


 
Hi Richard,

Bonobos really aren't a good example as the have a lot of behaviors built in around sex that aren't appliciable.. (such as using sex as a method of pacifying a threat..). 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ed,

Here's one of the reports I mentioned. I don't have the book referenced, so we'd have to look into it further to see how the author categorizes the behaviours seen in each group (if a group of young male rams stay togther and occasionally mount each other, that is sexual behaviour, what "evolutionary" role the behaviour might have is undertermined).

478 "Gay" Animals - Born Gay - ProCon.org

What defines "sexuality" and how it works in many different animal groups is a very open study area, especially as it has been a serious taboo in the research community for many years.

Take care, Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Ed,
> 
> Here's one of the reports I mentioned. I don't have the book referenced, so we'd have to look into it further to see how the author categorizes the behaviours seen in each group (if a group of young male rams stay togther and occasionally mount each other, that is sexual behaviour, what "evolutionary" role the behaviour might have is undertermined).
> 
> ...


I have no objection to it occuring but I think using bonobos is a poor choice....as thier social structure is maintained by sexual behaviors and trading sexual favors and resolving conflicts with sexual behaviors. 
it can have many meanings across mammalian species such as dominance.. (or as noted above lack of other suitable options).. I think if you really want to discuss it we should look at species that form strong pair bonds (but this will mainly reduce it to birds..). 

Ed


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

sounds pretty human to me.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I was trying to find the reference for a tern study that has been ongoing in Cape Cod for decades. The have determined there that 1/3 of the nesting pairs are female/female and nests contain twice the normal number of eggs. The drawback to this system seems to be that the chicks are smaller and more die, as parents aren't able to keep up with the food demands.

I think what Bonobo society is trying to teach us is that human sexuality (much of which has little to do with procreation) is not completely novel. Not all sexuality has to relate to procreation. Maybe we need to update our notion and definition of same.

Take care, Richard.



Ed said:


> I have no objection to it occuring but I think using bonobos is a poor choice....as thier social structure is maintained by sexual behaviors and trading sexual favors and resolving conflicts with sexual behaviors.
> it can have many meanings across mammalian species such as dominance.. (or as noted above lack of other suitable options).. I think if you really want to discuss it we should look at species that form strong pair bonds (but this will mainly reduce it to birds..).
> 
> Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Lesbian Albatrosses and Gay Giraffes? The Science on Same-Sex Sexuality in Animals | Audubon Magazine Blog


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Richard,

Maybe we need to discuss exactly what we are debating.. My whole position is simply that bonobos are not a good comparision for the frogs.. 

Ed


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

... poor guy, happened to me once in college ... 



JL-Exotics said:


> Yep, we have a 1.2 trio of Nikita tincs and the females will frequently get so worked up that they will stroke and court each other to the point that the male just loses interest and leaves them alone...
> 
> BTW, anybody that had an extra male Nikita please contact me


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

btcope said:


> ... poor guy, happened to me once in college ...


You were with two girls and they started to stroke each other and ignore you?


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Better question how did you loose interest?


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Ed,

Ah, yes, I was thinking more "globally" about the question. I'm sure the courtship I witnessed between the two female Azureus would have been very different had there been a male present.

Still, an interesting phenomena and one I hadn't noted in my frogs before.

Take care, Richard.



Ed said:


> Hi Richard,
> 
> Maybe we need to discuss exactly what we are debating.. My whole position is simply that bonobos are not a good comparision for the frogs..
> 
> Ed


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## LittleDip (May 20, 2007)

pumilo said:


> a surefire test for this is to watch and see if they are ever doing the arm motions for "ymca".


rotflmo lol


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## MountaineerLegion (Apr 8, 2008)

Fantastic thread! 

The "CliffsNotes" for the forums "social dynamics" in one thread. 

"Innocent" question from a new poster. Genuine attempts at an answer. Some shared experiences. Some veiled politics. Some quick shots for swaps, sales. The tiresome uber scientific debate with cited literature. Back and forth debate. And tons of humor and sarcasm. 

Amazing. Each time I read it I laugh again.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I've worked with monkeys for over a year; Macaca fascicularis (crab eating or cynomologus monkey, and Macaca mulatta (Rhesus monkey). I definitely see weird behavior with them all the time. We sometimes keep males and females in the same room together but we obviously don't want to breed so never in the same cage or the males would probably hurt the females out of sexual frustration lol

Males are usually kept together as the USDA wants us to at least try to give each monkey a friend if they can handle it. Most of the time when trying to find a good match, they beat the snot out of each other (it's not pretty and I keep saying it's a bad idea. Even when I'm amputating fingers, no one gets it!). On occasion, we pair up males they do some things to each other that I really don't want to repeat!


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm sorry I just don't think before I type some times. All true though!


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

What'sAGoonToAGoblin? said:


> Yep, they are gay. Better sell them quick!


hahaha that was a good laugh! Somehow I don't think anyone would want to sell them if it was 2 females though


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