# FF media isnt producing



## pinkpony (Mar 22, 2013)

Im not naming the companies because i dont know if thats allowed.

I usually buy my media from the same online store all the time. It works great!! But because i needed something else besides media and my favorite herp supply store was out. I went with a different place. 

I have been trying with this media since before spring! Im just not getting many flies at all.

Its so bad I had to order more flies and media from my favorite place and when i use that media I get great results. 

I attempted over & over to follow the directions to a tea. But when i do, theres so much dry media at the bottom. Ive left them like that. Added more water. Nothing works. This new media is nothing like the stuff i usually buy. I add the water and its perfect. No stirring and no dry spots. This stuff is horrible. Says nothing about mixing but if i dont its half dry & half wet.

I know it's not mites. I use the flies from the same culture to start both. Is it possible that this place could have messed up on making this media? 

Tonight to attempt to get some use out of what i bought (its a 3 lb bag) i made an experimental culture. With half & half of each media. I guess time will tell if its salvageable. Otherwise im just going to throw it out. I thought about telling the company but theres no sense. I do not want to try theirs again.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

When it comes to fruit flies I've learned to stick with what works. Every time I experiment with something new I always end up regretting it.

NEHERP makes some great media that is no mix and no boil. 

You could try adding half the water to the cup, then add the media and then the other half of the water. I also keep vinegar in a spray bottle to hit any dry spots.

You should definitely let the vendor know for QA I'm sure if they're reputable they'll take action and appreciate feedback.


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

I've been using the NE Herp media to good effect for a while also but I would stick with the stuff that's worked for you in the past. Chalk the other purchase up as a learning experience. You can keep it as a backup perhaps. 

You never mentioned what type of FFs you're working with. Melos are by far the better and faster producers and are good for most if not all dart frogs.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm guessing you're keeping as many other factors the same? Like temperature?


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## pinkpony (Mar 22, 2013)

NE herp's is my go to ff brand! (Well my go to for everything dart related!) They were out of something before spring??? i think leaves so i placed an order elsewhere, it didnt make sense to place orders from different stores. 

Otherwise I'd never switch. Mike & Jess are so sweet! Their business is local to me. Their media produces so many ff's. So it's a no brainer. 

As for the media thats not working from the other place.. I'm still trying. But im about to just throw it out if this last chance doesn't work. All im doing is wasting time with it.


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## pinkpony (Mar 22, 2013)

Oh.. lol 

But the main reason behind this thread. Is it possible it is a flaw in the media? Has someone ever had a complete fail with either their own or commercial media?

Or am i just a moron who cant breed some flies in a cup? (Guess its possible im a moron LOL but in this case.. i beg to differ!)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pretty much all of the medias regardless of the source will rear flies provided that there is enough moisture, protein, correct temperature range, and starch in the cultures. This is why the flies can be reared on a huge variety of medias. Pretty much all of the medias sold in the hobby are one form or another of what is referred to in the hobby as "carolina biological supply mix" and are variations on what is used in the labs that rear the flies. 

One of the things that happens consistently year in and year out is that people can fail to make the adjustments to the moisture content of the media due to changes in their local humidity. If your humidity is lower then you have to add more moisture to the cultures to get them to work properly (otherwise the cultures fail or produce few flies that can be smaller), if your humidity is too high and your getting pupae at the top of the culture or soupy media you have to reduce the water added to the cultures. 

These sorts of impacts can come from more than one husbandry or environmental impact so to make the assertion that the media is bad is problematic without some form of quality control. 

I've used many different types of media over the years ranging from home made modified carolina style mixes to Repashy Superfly. At this point I prefer the Superfly to the others for multiple reasons. 

Another problematic point is the recommendations based on levels of production which is not only subjective but doesn't take into account the final nutrient quality of the flies. You can get exceptional production from a mashed banana but that doesn't mean that the quality of the flies is the same as those reared on a media like Superfly. Anytime someone touts a media based on production you should take it with a very tiny grain of salt as part of the reason to choose that media. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Ed said:


> Anytime someone touts a media based on production you should take it with a very tiny grain of salt as part of the reason to choose that media.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Slightly off topic (or maybe not) but I find my production starts dropping after a number of years. I assume it's because I tend to not mix up the sources or "ages" of founding stock for new cultures and that I'm bottle-necking the genetics. After introducing some new fly genetics to the cultures I'm always surprised at how the cultures really bloom. By that time I've usually forgotten what a really healthy culture looks like.

Also, ditto on Superfly.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> Slightly off topic (or maybe not) but I find my production starts dropping after a number of years. I assume it's because I tend to not mix up the sources or "ages" of founding stock for new cultures and that I'm bottle-necking the genetics. After introducing some new fly genetics to the cultures I'm always surprised at how the cultures really bloom. By that time I've usually forgotten what a really healthy culture looks like.
> 
> Also, ditto on Superfly.


I had to laugh at this as I just picked up a new culture to refresh my lines. I try to add a culture in from a vendor every 18 months or so just to keep the maximal genetics going in the cultures. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed: . Aren't these fruitflies super inbred to start with? Its not like the dealers can acquire and cross new lines of flies. The only advantage they may have is simply keeping a larger population of them...

Thoughts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Ed: . Aren't these fruitflies super inbred to start with? Its not like the dealers can acquire and cross new lines of flies. The only advantage they may have is simply keeping a larger population of them...
> 
> Thoughts?


The answer is yes and no. Yes they are pretty inbred but we have to also pay attention to the fact that there are going to be divergence in the genetics of the various populations. Over time the parental source and the cultures in the home will diverge and the sum total of the divergence can result in a less than optimal genetics and as the culture conditions where cultures are managed in other people's care isn't going to be the same as mine so there is a good probability that they aren't going to be accumulating the same changes in their genotype.

I try to minimize the overall divergence in my cultures by using flies from more than one culture and more than one emergence but I also recognize that the flies in my cultures are going to diverge from the vendor where I acquired my flies over time so I periodically introduce new genes into my flies. As the I also start my cultures with pretty substantial numbers of flies ( a few hundred) I can then avoid issues with outbreeding depression as the large numbers of parental flies allows for the population to stabilize its genetics (and the whole process of divergence repeats itself). 

One of the things to keep in mind is that there are two different genetic lines to consider the first is that of the flies themselves and the second is the Wolbachia bacterium that infects them. Wolbachia infection tends to improve the fitness and/or fecundity of the female flies but there is also a chance where it can accrue mutations which then change the effect and impact of the bacteria so occasional inclusions of Wolbachia from other populations of melanogaster can be important as well.

Some comments 

Ed


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## SuperAWE (Aug 21, 2016)

I would stick to what you know works. Shortcuts usually lead to a problem down the road.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Interesting Ed. Dunno how much it will impact hobbyist yields...seems most folks crash out and need new flies before that could happen.

I think I am going almost a year with my current batch. I switched from Turks to wingless as I was tired of the Turks running all over the place-and I didn't see any increased production from using them. I suppose they offered more dust/chitin...


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## asoules (May 4, 2015)

I've only used superfly. I've found some of the homemade recipes and was thinking of experimenting. Are there some that provide the same nutrional value as Reapshy?

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Interesting Ed. Dunno how much it will impact hobbyist yields...seems most folks crash out and need new flies before that could happen.
> 
> I think I am going almost a year with my current batch. I switched from Turks to wingless as I was tired of the Turks running all over the place-and I didn't see any increased production from using them. I suppose they offered more dust/chitin...


I've been culturing the same strain with the addition of some outside lines for at least 5 years and maybe much longer. I suspect that much of the crashes are due to husbandry reasons more than anything. The flies in your cultures should be adapting to your methods but this also means that if you vary from your normal routine you could end up with a crashed situation (hence the recommendation to add some new ones every so often). 

As I've mentioned many times before, production is a terrible metric as it is totally subjective and depends on what the person is looking to accomplish. For example if you want to maximize the utilization of the media then you want to use flies from later emergences as the first batch is less efficient in the utilization of the food. 

some comments 

Ed


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## CrazyDart (Oct 26, 2011)

asoules said:


> I've only used superfly. I've found some of the homemade recipes and was thinking of experimenting. Are there some that provide the same nutrional value as Reapshy?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


I have tried a dozen home made recipes. It is best to stick to buying it pre-made. I did have some great luck years ago with cutting the pre-made stuff with some various things like potato flakes, brewers yeast, and spirulina. Adding stuff throws off the mold inhibitors, so you might add a small amount of white vinegar. In the end, I just found buying it was less hassle. 

Some recipes produced really well, but stink or make it hard to get the flies out. 

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The vinegar addition should be considered with great suspicion as many of the molds that invade the cultures are fine at the pH of vinegars and at least one of them (Aspergillus niger) actually lowers the pH of the media to around 2 to reduce the competition so vinegar isn't going to really help in that case. 

some comments 

Ed


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## CrazyDart (Oct 26, 2011)

Ed said:


> The vinegar addition should be considered with great suspicion as many of the molds that invade the cultures are fine at the pH of vinegars and at least one of them (Aspergillus niger) actually lowers the pH of the media to around 2 to reduce the competition so vinegar isn't going to really help in that case.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Sure, it did seem to help a little. Really if you are serious you need to get some methylparaben... But by that point you might as well be producing it to sell it. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylparaben

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CrazyDart said:


> Sure, it did seem to help a little. Really if you are serious you need to get some methylparaben... But by that point you might as well be producing it to sell it.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylparaben
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935T using Tapatalk


I know what methylparaben is .... I was pointing out that the claim of the effectiveness of vinegar is highly suspect as the conditions for the common molds that are likely to show up in the cultures such as Aspergillus sp., Penicillium ssp, Fusarium ssp, Alternaria ssp all can live at a pH supplied by the addition of vinegar. 

It is far more effective to make sure to clean your equipment and to cover the cultures immediately if made with cool water or while they cool (if you use a hot water media). 

some comments 

Ed


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## CrazyDart (Oct 26, 2011)

Ed said:


> I know what methylparaben is .... I was pointing out that the claim of the effectiveness of vinegar is highly suspect as the conditions for the common molds that are likely to show up in the cultures such as Aspergillus sp., Penicillium ssp, Fusarium ssp, Alternaria ssp all can live at a pH supplied by the addition of vinegar.
> 
> It is far more effective to make sure to clean your equipment and to cover the cultures immediately if made with cool water or while they cool (if you use a hot water media).
> 
> ...


I wasn't in disagreement... I was adding that part about methylparaben for everyone else who doesn't know about it. I agree, vinegar doesn't generally help much. I personally hate the smell of it too. Good clean cultures with flies from clean cultures makes all the difference in the world... And using ff medium with the correct chemicals... The home made stuff just never really seems to work well was my point. 

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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CrazyDart said:


> I agree, vinegar doesn't generally help much.


Then why perpetuate a questionable at best practice? 



CrazyDart said:


> And using ff medium with the correct chemicals... The home made stuff just never really seems to work well was my point.


Virtually all of the homemade medias are based on the Carolina Biological Supply Company's media with various tweaks to "improve" it. They can work just fine if the correct attention is paid towards the cultures. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed.

Media utilization is indeed important...but with people often chucking old cultures due to mites I think that getting large second booms may actually not be that important for some hobbyists. For me I personally select for it since I have a couple times restarted my flies from some pretty nasty cultures. If doing that I add extra bakers yeast to get a thick white film of yeast from the get go...I have used flies from cultures with small amounts of colored mold without this spreading to new cultures,

What are your thoughts on the current focus on nutrition as calories? Do you think culturing feeders that are less "nutritious" would help at all. I think you mentioned that dart frogs are pretty good at digesting chitin...so the benefits of using Turkish gliders for extra chitin and lower caloric density are minimal at best. Not sure if supplement levels are much affected by gliders vs wingless flies. I find my thumbnails take wingless flies more readily than the gliders.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can also add more flies to the beginning of the culture to help prevent unwanted molds from getting a good hold on the media. The digestive secretions and churning of the media by the larvae plays a large role in this respect. 

There will be some differences in the caloric content of the gliders vs wingless but the difference in caloric content is swamped by the sheer volume fed to the frogs particularly if we consider microfauna in the mix. For there to be a significant impact people would have to be able to control the caloric input in a much more rigorous fashion. 

Chitin should also be considered as a form of fiber in the digestive tract of the frogs and in this respect it is important but again any difference in benefit would require a much more rigorous control of caloric input. If your getting eggs every week or two all year round your frogs are getting too much in the way of calories. 

some comments 

Ed


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