# Spindle Leg Syndrome- Possible Cause?



## dragonfrog

Check this out. An earlier post lead us to the British Dendroboad and their Newsletters. In one of them is an article on spidle-leg....



> SPINDLY-LEG SYNDROME
> Dendrobatid breeding has been plagued by the spindly-leg syndrome in recent years, in the U.S.A. and Europe as well as in Britain. Breeders have been very disappointed to find, after spawning their frogs and carefully rearing the tadpoles, that they develop this condition, necessitating euthanasia immediately after metamorphosis. The symptoms are small and ineffective forelimbs, though usually these are perfectly formed. Conversely, the hind limbs are normal. The causes of this condition have been debated and many varying reasons for its occurrence have been suggested. The have included a lack of some factor in the diet of either the parent frogs or the tadpoles, an incorrect environmental parameter, or genetic problem. I have discounted the possibility of the syndrome being genetic in origin as it has occurred in clutches from frogs producing previously healthy larvae, occurring only after intensive breeding. I have also discounted the environmental factor, as I find it hard to believe an environmental parameter occurring in breeder's vivarium but not in the wild state, to result in such handicapping condition. As the forelimbs are the last to develop in the process of metamorphosis, this implies a lack or depletion of some factor that has been exhausted in the previous developmental stages. The larval diet consists generally of good-quality fIsh-food. Whilst not a natural diet mimic, this food should provide all possible nutrients including minerals or all but one. The natural larval diet of non egg-feeders must consist of decaying plant and insect matter (detritus feeders), these items falling into the water body in which the larvae are living, be this a living bromeliad in the treetops, mud puddle on the forest floor or the water in a discarded Coke can. It is possible that the female frog supplies the necessary developmental factors since the adult diet is far less restricted an, thus vital vitamins and minerals may be passed on via the egg yolk. I do not feel a lack of vitamins is responsible since I as well as others who have experienced this syndrome dust livefood will multi-vitamin preparations. My search for a missing factor led me back to my biology text books. The development and metamorphosis of the tadpole into a frog involves complex, morphological changes that are controlled by hormones. These hormones promote the development of certain cells to produce the new limbs and organs of the frog. The main hormone concerned with this cell differentiation is thyroxine, produced by the thyroid gland. Thyroxine contains iodine. If the diet of the parent or the tadpole were deficient in iodine, then there would be a deficiency of thyroxine, the hormone responsible for metamorphosis. There may be enough thyroxine for development up to a point, but not enough for the later developmental stage, that of forelimb growth. I have started to use the iodine nibbles used for cage birds, added to the tadpoles' water and also dusted on the food for adult frogs. In a batch of D. tinctorius that had previously shown 100% offspring with spindly-leg, those tadpoles that had not started to develop limbs prior to iodine addition have developed into perfect frogs. I am still investigating iodine deficiency and would like to show recurrence of the syndrome when iodine is discontinued. However, the immediate correction after the addition of iodine suggests strongly that iodine deficiency is the cause of spindly-leg syndrome. STEVE HALFPENNY


This was written in approx. 1990

I would be interested in what Ed thinks of this.


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## Jordan B

Wow, that is very interesting.


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## dragonfrog

This was on another page.........




> SPINDLY-LEG SYNDROME
> In my colony of D. auratus West Coast I must lose some 60% of larvae to spindly leg. It is particularly frustrating because this insidious condition only shows itself during what amounts to be the last five minutes of tadpole's development. It is sad enough to have to dispose of a young tadpole but I find having to dispose of a young frog just a it is showing its first beautiful colours even more distressing. I have tried everything I can think of to try to counteract the effects of this condition. Frozen foods for tropical fish; live foods; dried foods; mineral supplements as well as plain cuttlefish. Bearing all this in mind, then, I'm afraid Steve Halfpenny's idea of iodine supplement did not come as an earthshattering revelation to me. I rang one or two people up to discuss the idea with them and, not surprisingly, they shared my scepticism. However, not wanting to put a damper on things before giving it a fair trial, I proceeded to try out Steve's idea on my current batch of ten larvae. They were a couple of weeks old, from two different spawnings, but still do not have their hind legs. They seemed ideal candidates for the trial. I looked after the tadpoles exactly as before except that, after each daily water change, I added to each container a couple of droppers-full of ground iodine block as manufactured for cage birds, mixed with a little water (Johnson's Iodised Condition Pek [sic]). Some of this sank to the bottom in a fine powder, while it seemed clear that a proportion had dissolved. The food was, as before, TetraMin flake (type: Staple food, yellow drum, dark brown lid); the Tradescantia shoots were still present as before. I kept rigidly to this regime... and waited... and waited. I finally got to the point where the first larvae were due to push through their front legs. Up to this point, their development had been completely as it had been in hundreds of larvae before them. Good appetites. Good growth rates. In other words, text book offspring. Out of ten larvae, I expected to lose at least six. Imagine my surprise when, one by one, the larvae developed absolutely normal, healthy front legs. I have a 50% success rate with these at the moment, and don't doubt for one minute that I will have similar successes with the remainder. I have several batches of eggs incubating at the moment, and can't wait for another chance to try this technique, just to make sure it isn't just
> a fluke. I'm now sure in my own mind that it is not. Suffice it to say that my thanks must go to Steve for his observations - but I can't help but ask myself: having tried just about everything I could think of, why did I not think of iodine myself. Just goes to show... JOHN SKILLCORN


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## Dendrobait

Wow that is amazing. I agree..where's Ed?


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## Ed

Busy,

There have been many conjectures on the cause of SLS and just as many cures. There have people who have tried the iodine supplement and did not have a change in the incidence of SLS. (I have a copy of this article already) and other people did get a reduction or elimination. 
One of the items that I thought was interesting was that iodine is typically restricted to marine sources and deep earth so I was surprised that the iodine looked to be the cure given that in the wild the places they live would be iodine poor habitats. 

I am also not convinced that there wasn't one or more other micronutrients that were required that the supplement supplied (for example as a general analysis the product used by the second article contains snip "Contains iodine, grits, seaweed extract, calcium, 
yeast, vitamins and minerals, etc." endsnip which includes just about everything....)



Metamorphosis is a complex feedback mechanism that would allow for disruptions to occur at multiple points with the same result. 

As a side point, this is also an insufficient definition of SLS and if you review all of the literature, the description varies from no front legs to one front leg to abnormal front legs (in some cases only one developing abnormally or at all) and cases in which the front and hind limbs are deformed or absent. 


Some comments,

Ed 


PS: I will be doing a workshop/discussion group on SLS at the 2007 IAD....


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## dragonfrog

Thanks for your input Ed. I wish I could attend IAD t hear your workshop. Can you make the material accesable to us after the IAD? say in .pdf format.

Here is one more item from the BD about SLS, (it's a long one, but worth reading) not to confuse the issue, it just gives us very good ideas to think about...

[/quote]DEVELOPMENTS IN THE STUDY OF SPINDLE LEG SYNDROME
Spindle leg syndrome, a condition that was identified as a problem many years ago, affects the front legs of metamorphosing tadpoles. The result is froglets which have weak, deformed limbs and which are seldom able to feed effectively and thus die. Last year I attended the "Anuren Taggung 1998" in Germany where I gained further information about Spindle Legs which I have investigated and now produce my conclusions. 
A German vet, Dr. Thomas Wohrmann, from the University of Aachen, has examined, by histology, hundreds of affected Dendrobatids and has found the following: 
1) The thyroid gland is always normal 
2) The fore-legs always have muscular atrophy 
3) The spinal column has subtotal dystrophy 
4) The medulla oblongata is not closed 

Because I am an amateur, but wanted to fully understand what this meant, I spoke with veterinary professors in Belgium and the Netherlands and these are the conclusions:
1. Whilst the thyroid is histologically normal this does not confirm normal secretion of hormones which requires further investigation. 
2. This muscular atrophy is the histological examination of the visible effect of spindle leg. The 'elbows' are fixed and the musculature has too few fibres, which are also small (Gouda & Hak, University of Utrecht, 1995). 
3. The spinal column has subtotal dystrophy, it is not completely closed. 
4. The medulla oblongata is not closed at all (this is the section of the brain that connects with the spinal chord).

THE BIOLOGY:
(Development stages are the standard stages of early development of anurans according to Gosner, 1960) 
In the development of frogs eggs the closing of the spinal column starts at stage 13, when the neural plate is formed. This closing is complete at stage 15 when a neural tube is completely formed. The medulla oblongata stays open which is normal for amphibians. The closing of the spinal column and the formation of the forelegs are controlled by a gene, the homeobox gene XLHBox 1. If there is a disturbance of this gene, the frogs develop spindly legs. The German investigators were able to generate this in the laboratory and each time they introduced a disrupter the frogs developed spindly legs. The external influences on that gene are not known, but it is possible that the disrupter is introduced by the parents, by high temperature or radiation (perhaps UV?), after the eggs have been laid, but prior to the tadpoles becoming free swimming at Stage 25. 
If this is true, it means that it is too late to change the process once tadpoles have formed as the genetic information to produce spindly legs is set in the egg. Only the influences of temperature or radiation can generate a further disruption of the gene making it impossible to repair a disruption that has existed from stages 13 to 15. Therefore, in my opinion, if we wish to find the reasons for spindly leg, and its cure, we must look at the parents, not the tadpoles. 
The human condition, spina bifida, in which babies are born with a spinal column not completely closed is also caused by the XLHBox 1 gene. The incidence of the condition has been demonstrated to be reduced by giving, the mother large quantities of folic acid, and often vitamin E, as a prophylactic. Both spindly legs and spina bifida are conditions generated by a disruption of the same gene making it feasible that the same prophylactic could work, a possibility which must be worth trying with frog parents.

The Question:
It is questionable how the frogs obtain these substances in the wild but it should be possible to give the frogs fruit flies dusted with folic Acid and vitamin E powders but how, and in what quantities, as there is no information on dosage for amphibians? Pregnant women are frequently given a medication called OMNIBIOTA Prenatal which gives a dose of folic acid of 5mg and 12mg of vitamin E for a woman of 55kg body weight. This equates to 0.lmg and 0.22mg/kg respectively.
Folic Acid: Because folic acid is one of the vitamins from the B complex, there is little risk of hypervitaminosis (overdosing). Information for fish and poultry gives a dosage of about 10 to 20 mg folic acid /kg food. Daily 
doses of 20 mg/kg body weight would seem to be sufficient for fish and poultry but this is over 100 times the level indicated for humans. 
Vitamin E: In a professional fish food for Tillapia and Trout, a dosage of 50-100mg/kg bodyweight of fish is given. This is again, at least, 200 times the level indicated for humans. Vitamin E prevents the formation of free radicals that can initiate the disruption of the relevant gene. 
As our normally used vitamin and mineral supplements contain very low levels of both folic acid and vitamin E, I suggest that some form of supplementation may be necessary, though a considerable amount of work will be needed to ascertain dosages. It may be that, in the first instance, a simple addition to the usual vitamin/mineral supplements, might be tried. 
The next text is from Brander G. C. & Pugh D. 11 1977 Veterinary Applied Pharmacology and Therapeutics: Folic acid, folinic acid, vitamin C and cyanocobalamin are connected with nucleic acid synthesis. The acid is also involved in ansmethylating actions along with cyanocobalamin, both in nucleoprotein formation and in fat metabolism through methylation in the synthesis of choline and methionine. Through this latter action folic acid and cyanocobalamin reduce nutritional requirements of choline and methionine. Clinically the symptoms shown in experimentally induced deficiencies are unlikely to occur. These symptoms include macrocytic anaemias with reduction in the numbers of all cellular elements of the blood, diarrhoea, skin lesions, reduced growth rates in experimental animals and birds. It should be noted, however, that, as with paraaminobenzoic acid, which is a precursor of folic acid, small quantities of the gut 'active' sulphonamides will promote a deficiency, probably by reducing bacterial numbers and therefore the synthesis of this and other vitamins. 
Therapy when an outbreak of (vitamin E) deficiency disease is suspected usually consists of immediate administration of vitamin E and/or selenium in whatever form is appropriate and convenient. Nutritional requirements are not defined. This is possibly because the availability of the vitamin is conditioned by the composition of the diet. Where the level of unsaturated fatty acids in the diet is high, the vitamin requirements will also be high, but it should be remembered that other compounds and conditions besides these acids will depress absorption of vitamin E, including triorthocresylphosphate (in. some species), possibly sulphaguanidine and gastroenteritis. It must also be borne in mind that variations in mineral and carbohydrate concentrations in a diet will modify the symptoms resulting from a vitamin E deficiency or insufficiency. Deficiencies other vitamins such as choline may predispose muscles to the effects of vitamin E deficiencies. 
Conclusions: Many people are, trying to solve the problems of spindly leg and, whilst not suggesting that my ideas are the answer, I feel that they are worthy of further investigations. Hugo Claessen Antwerp Belgian Herpetological Society 
Editor's note:
Whilst some of Hugo's article above is conjecture, it is well thought out and would form an excellent basis for further research. If there are any members currently producing froglets with spindle leg it would be worth adding vitamin E and folic acid to the usual vitamin and mineral supplements to see if this alleviates the problem. Please let the rest of us know your results.


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## Alan

Interesting reading. Thanks to all who have posted material.

Alan


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## Guest

Good stuff people. Thanks for posting. 

I am curious... has anyone ever documented SLS in the wild? Is this (as observed) a strictly captive breeding issue?


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## Ed

before people begin adhoc additions of vitamin E please keep in mind that this is a fat soluable vitamin that can be overdosed. Not only can it be over dosed but it also competes for uptake with vitamin A and D3 so if the ratio of supplementation of A: D3: E exceeds 10:1:0.1 conditional deficiencies can also develop. 

In practice deficiencies in vitamin E are very rarely seen in captive animals unless they have been fed foods in which the fatty acids have begun to degrade. 

Yes the development of the limbs can be disrupted early assuring SLS but there are also indications that it can be disrupted later in development. 
After installing a carbon prefilter set on the water supply for the amphibians we went from 0% SLS to 100% SLS in multiple genera of anurans (Smilesca, Epidobates and Dendrobates). This was tested with several controls ( Artificial Pond Water made with RO, Carbon filtered and aged tap water) and at the end of study all surviving tadpoles were placed back into aged tap water. The resulting metamorphs demonstrated a range of SLS from no legs to usable but thin front legs to totally normal legs depending on the age of the tadpole when it was switched back to aged tap water. All of the tadpoles were well after Gosner stage 25. 

Some more comments

Ed


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## Roadrunner

Hi Ed,
I dont understand the correlation between the carbon filtered water and the occurance of SLS. Are you saying that using carbon filters will cause SLS? Is it because of the removal of certain other"nutrients"(for lack of a better term) or that the chlorine was not all removed or something else?


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## Ed

I am not and will not say carbon filtered water WILL cause SLS. I will say in once instance it has caused SLS as this was the only parameter changed in the husbandry resulting in 100% SLS in several genera and that when the husbandry was changed back to tap water the incidence of SLS went from 100% back to 0%. 

I was using this to illustrate that disruption of the development can occur later in the tadpole's development. (This is the link to SLS and artificial pond water mentioned in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry)... 

Ed


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## Roadrunner

who knows what they put in that jersey water. i just wanted to clarify that i use carbon in both whole house filtration and my fluval 404 and havent had a problem w/ sls since i started using them. it mustve been a water additive that evaporates over time or a buildup of chlorine in the filter and some slow release from breakdown or something. i have no experience to relate it to as ive never used carbon filtered tap water.
i was wondering how long this went on for. do you use jars of vit and calcium and fish food like we do? i was just wondering if the time period this happened could have been synonymous with the amount of time it takes for you to go thru a jar of vitamins or fish food and there was some possibility of a spoiled product. 
if i understand correctly, the only tads that exhibited sls were the ones that were placed in carbon filtered water(not set out for 24hrs) and the pond water and aged tap water tads didnt have spindly?
sorry, i just want to understand this correctly. i have found that tads can get sls from heat, cold, bad tad nutrients(although this is unlikely given a good diet to the parents) and mostly from the shape the breeders are in(heat stress, cold, sufficient vit and minerals etc) and i imagined it could be caused by hormone disruptors and other chemicals in the environment. i had never heard of carbon filters being a culprit and can only surmise that there was a chemical that would evaporate but not be filtered by the carbon. i`m not saying you didnt see what you saw, i`m just trying to deduce a cause between our 2 experiences w/ carbon prefilters. i imagine there is also a difference between my modest carbon house filters and the system installed for a zoo. did you do a chemistry workup on strait tap, carbon filtered tap and aged tap water? this is interesting as we may be able to figure out why some people are having problems if they are using carbon pre filters on municipal water systems. you didnt have a group of aged carbon filtered water tads did you? this may tell if it was something the water had which would evaporate or if it was a byproduct of the system. if the aged filtered tads showd no spidly it was just that the water system wasnt removing all the chlorine or the re was something else that wasnt removed and needed time to evaporate.


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## Ben_C

Maybe we should start a poll about SLS...

We could have people post their raising protocol and their rates of SLS and importantly their location and type of water used. 
If we get enough posts and enough people from one area (say, Idaho) that use the same type of water (say, well water) and they all have similarly high (or low) rates of SLS, maybe we can tease out some of the details of what contaminants may contribute to sls...

Just a thought.

Great thread.

~B


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## Roadrunner

i tried that when i got my well. i asked what kind of water people used and how it worked. no one responded.


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## Ed

Okay I'll go over the break down and you can see how we narrowed it down to the filter. 

There was a 0% incidence of SLS in any anuran here at work with the earlier exception of some Smilesca phaeota that were heavily parasitized with nematodes until the incidence of the carbon filtration of incoming water. After SLS started up (we went from 0% in those species to 100%, there were no exceptions), there were multiple changes to both the supplements for the adults as well as the tadpoles as well as foods used with no change in the incidence of SLS (still 100%). 

Three groups of tinct tadpoles were setup and reared in the following manner (same food and supplements between all groups) 

1) clutches were split amoung the three test groups to reduce/eliminate any genetic influences on the development
2) tadpoles were reared in labeled dannon pint yogurt containers filled to the same volume
3) containers were maintained in mixed groups in the exact same locations to prevent thermal differences from skewing the results 
4) tadpoles were kept in three different locations to eliminate temperature difference as a potential cause 
5) test groups were maintained in one of the following 
a) artificial pond water made with RO water (aged 48 hours) 
b) carbon treated aged tap water (aged for 48 hours) 
c) tapwater aged for 48 hours 
6) tadpoles were fed and cleaned on the same schedules
7) necropsied SLS affected metamorphs were not parasitized like the earlier mentioned Smilesca phaeota. 

In the test the following results developed 

artificial pond water had 100 %SLS
carbon filtered tapwater has 100% SLS 
aged tapwater had 0% SLS. 

After about 15-20 tads metamorphed out in each group the experiment was halted and all tadpoles were placed into aged tapwater with the varying metamorphosis described in the previous post. 

The conclusion I drew from this is that there was some micronutrient that was being pulled from the tapwater by both the carbon and the RO filter. As far as I know this is the only incidence of carbon filtered induced SLS. 


Ed


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## dragonfrog

Awesome information Ed.



> Okay I'll go over the break down and you can see how *we* narrowed it down to the filter.


Ed, you obviously know a lot about frogs (amphibians in general) so I must ask, where do you work? My guess is a zoo.

Thanks


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## kyle1745

Just a minor note I did run some very small tests 5-10 tads in RO and did not have any issues. I have since switched to reconstituted RO (RO Right) and have had great results.

Ed,
Could this be a micronutrient or something else that made it through the filters? I for get the name at the moment of the chlorine like additive, but im sure there are some things not blocked by RO units. Most RO units also have carbon filters.


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## Ed

I think its the other way around, its a micronutrient that didn't get through the filters. 

Carbon is an indiscriminate absorber that pulls all different kinds of things from the water while RO systems (depending on the system) (especially when combined with an absorbtion column) result in water that is equivalent to distilled. 
As I noted before this is the only case that I am aware of where this occured. 

Ed 

PS: I am the lead keeper in a Dept of Herpetology at a Zoo.. 

Ed


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## dragonfrog

Thank you Ed, I knew your intelligence came from somewhere!!



> I have since switched to reconstituted RO (RO Right) and have had great results.


Kyle, where do you get your RO Right?


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## kyle1745

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=KM5333
I mix 1/8th of a teaspoon per gallon.


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## dragonfrog

Thank you for that info Kyle


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## steelcube

Ed, This filtered water, is it filtered once or continously??


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## r90s

This is a topic, that needs much input. I hope we have a long discussion here, so that maybe some ideas can be formed about what helps with the problem, from a large pool of input.

Clyde


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## Ed

Hi Steve,

This was a single pass carbon filtration system placed in the incoming tap water line. (in the same case we also had 100% SLS in artificial pond water (the reference in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). 

Ed 

Ed


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## steelcube

what's an artificial pond water? sorry I didn't read the book.


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## Ed

This is a basic artificial pond water recipe. I would have to check and compare it to the one in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry to see if it is the exact same. 

http://www2.eve.ucdavis.edu/shafferlab/ ... Recipe.pdf

Ed


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## steelcube

Ed, 

You probably have read my email that I wrote to frognet a while back. I wonder what would happen if one put an appropriate amount of organic fertilizer or compost into those filtered and artificial pond (DI) water. 

I would think this would be a good test to run to see if filtering water is interrupting some sort of food chain. 

Some thoughts.


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## Ed

Hi Stephen,

I don't think it is an interuption of a food chain so to speak as we tend to provide all of that for the tads. 
the addition of an organic solute source may or may not resolve the issue as the causative condition could be a mineral that was chelated and this open to removal by the carbon... 

Ed


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## steelcube

Hmm this topic got moved... it was not food for the tadpoles, but rather microorganism/phytoplanktons, Ed. 

RO/DI/active carbon filter out the organic matter which inhibit microorganisms to flourish. At least that's what I thought. 

But maybe it's simply lack of mineral/s like you said. But what kind of mineral/s?


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## josh_r

hey ed

have you ran a test of your aged tap water to see what exactly is in it and how much?? i know tap water is different all over the country. it would be interresting to know 

-josh


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## Ed

No we didn't run the tests partly because the dissolved solutes in the water can vary from week to week because it is processed river water. 

Ed


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## steelcube

This sounds like an osmosis problem to me rather than lack of minerals or food etc. 

just a thought.


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## Ed

Hi Steve,

How does carbon cause an osmosis problem? In what fashion would you expect an osmosis problem cause the issue? 

Ed


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## steelcube

Sure... 

Osmosis... Filtered water vs. tadpole bodily fluid. Water molecules went into tadpole body causing the tadpole to excrete more -> unable to properly use food resources. 

Not so much deadly as moving saltwater fish to fresh water, but the same principle.


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## Ed

The carbon filtered tap water will have an osmotic potential that is the same as non carbon filtered tap water.... 

Ed


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## steelcube

really? are you sure?  are you positive that filtered water does not have less impurities?


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## Ed

snip "really? are you sure? are you positive that filtered water does not have less impurities?"endsnip

I don't think I said that... 
I said that the osmotic potential is the same... (there may be a difference at the ppm level but this is not significant enough to change the osmotic potential of the frog to a significant degree). But then we are then not considering the effects of the fish flakes, tadpole excreta etc that are then also added to the water which would then increase the osmotic potential of the water... The effects on the osmotic potential of the water is then negligible. 

Ed


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## steelcube

The problem might be that we are assuming that the tap water has the same solution as the tadpoles'. In the wild nobody changes their waterholes completely. The water might even have much higher solution than tap water and tadpoles are built to live in these conditions. 

I know we've been speaking generalization and everybody does things differently but in my opinion people should definitely not ignore osmosis as a potential problem.


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## Ed

snip "The problem might be that we are assuming that the tap water has the same solution as the tadpoles'."endsnip

With the exception of something that approximates the osmotic potential of sea water, all natural bodies of water are going to be hypotonic with respect to the tadpoles. 

snip " In the wild nobody changes their waterholes completely. The water might even have much higher solution than tap water and tadpoles are built to live in these conditions. "endsnip

This is not necessarily a given as heavy rainstorms could result in 100% or greater turnovers of water volume in a tapole rearing location. Rain water is hypotonic to the tadpoles. Now the detritus found in some of the rearing sites will increase the osmotic potential of the water, it still will not approximate the osmotic potentials of sea water. 
Unless the water conditions come close to an osmotic potential of sea water again, we are still dealing with hypotonic solutions with respect to the tadpoles. 

snip "I know we've been speaking generalization and everybody does things differently but in my opinion people should definitely not ignore osmosis as a potential problem."endsnip

Osmosis can be a problem as in at least caudates it has been shown that when kept in distilled water, they can lose calcium ions while they maintain thier osmotic balance however, these are then also actively scavenged from solution. I would have a hard time believing that tadpoles lack the ability to scavenge ions from solution when it is also found in fish and other amphibians.... 
It is a potential problem as extremes of osmotic potential result in a energetic cost at the potential expense of the rate of growth. 

Ed


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## steelcube

To anyone who is interested, You can google "Osmosis" to learn what it means. 

What also interesting is that folic acid dissolves in water... I could make this fit if I want to...  a great potential if you ask me...


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## Ed

Yes all B vitamins are water soluable which is why they are difficult to consume in quantities sufficient to reach toxic levels. 

The addition of folic acid (and other B vitamins) has long been a potential treatment to attempt to cure SLS in tadpoles but again doesn't work in all cases. 

If you considering the proposition that a cause is due to loss of folic acid from the tadpoles due to osmoregulation then you will have to work very very hard to make this fit as this doesn't match to how folic acid is metabolized and excreted (and the route of excretion plays a strong part in osmoregulatory effects). Unless you are ingesting so much folic acid that the liver cannot metabolize it to N-5 methyltetrahydrofolic acid (which is then stored) so that the kidneys are then overloaded with it, it doesn't get excreted with urine. As for loss through the skin, this would require a breakdown of how the skin acts in amphibians (much less anurans) as typically only cations are lost in the process of osmoregulation (sodium, potassium, and calcium) which are significantly smaller than folic acid (which has a molecular weight of over 400). 

Ed


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## steelcube

Ed,

Nobody said folic acid being metabolize or loss thru a membrane skin. (which is impossible) It might help if you would google osmosis first to understand what I am trying to say, rather than trying hard to prove that this wouldn't work.

It seems to me that you might know something else but would rather not disclose it. Although I appreciate the effort to nullify an alternative probable solution, which may or may not be the case, I am curious about yours. Let's hear it.


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## Ed

Steve,

I have an excellant understanding of osmosis... which is why I was speaking of osmotic potential and osmoregulation and hyponicity which are all important factors dealing with osmosis and living organisms. 

Ed


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## rompida

just thought I'd drop a bit of recent anecdotal data on spindly. Had a couple batches of vent tads that were coming out spindly. All were kept on my well water, which tends to have alot of Iron in it. Anyway, after losing so many, I had 2 left that were still relatively smaller in size. So, I did a water change, and used some of the pond water from one of my tanks. 

.... a couple weeks later, one of the tads developed the frontal bulges, but never popped out front legs. Another 2 weeks went by, and since they should have popped by now, I took a closer look at him, and noticed that there were fully developed and moving front legs underneath the skin. For whatever reason the legs just wouldn't break through. So... after debating whether to go ahead and euthanize the little guy, I decided, rather rashly, to try something different. I made a tiny incision with a clean razor where the leg usually comes through the skin. 2 days later, the legs were out. Its been a week now, and the froglet has fully absorbed the tail and is out of the water. Both legs seem fully functional. I watched the froglet hop around and eat this morning. 

Anyone care to comment? Any idea why the condition seemingly reversed? (as a disclaimer, I already know that there are way too many variable to consider, just throught I'd throw this out there)


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## Rain_Frog

what about, RO water with a tiny amount of our vitamin supplements added to the water? Would that help any?


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## dragonfrog

> All were kept on my well water, which tends to have alot of Iron in it.


Well, kind of makes you wonder if the excess iron could be part of the problem.
Maybe you should try this several times to see if it comes out the same, experiment wise.


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## stchupa

dragonfrog said:


> All were kept on my well water, which tends to have alot of Iron in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, kind of makes you wonder if the excess iron could be part of the problem.
> Maybe you should try this several times to see if it comes out the same, experiment wise.
Click to expand...

It's probably the pipes or a galvanized thread.

There was a recall on steel tubing about a week ago so depending on how old and if you filter.

This is why noone seems to know the cause because we don't know how far into detail people consider.

Why it's not solved (as a whole comm) and probably never will be except for those people who already know and fixed those problems.

Analysing the water for contaminents would tell something.


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## Ed

The real reason it hasn't been totally "solved" is because metamorphosis and developement of the limbs in tadpoles is a complex system comprising of multiple enzymes and regulated by multiple biofeedback points. Jamming one (or more) of these points will result in SLS hence the multiple "cures" of SLS. 
Analyzing the water isn't going to provide any data unless you then make up water with the exact same minerals/contaminents except one and rear tadpoles in it to see if they develop sls. If they don't then you have to add it to different batches of tadpoles until they do. If they don't then you have to move onto the next mineral/contaminent until you have tested all of them and seen which cause SLS under those husbandry regimens. 

In one study done at either Baltimore or NAIB, they were unable to induce SLS in tadpoles from properly supplemented adult dendrobatid frogs but could readily get SLS in frogs that were not properly supplemented which is why parental nutrition as well the frequency (or lack thereof) of clutches can have a direct impact on SLS in the tadpoles. 

At that late stage, I have significant doubts that the addition of the pond water was the reason SLS did not form as this is probably insufficient time for the correct muscle and nerve formation to have occured. 
With the slitting of the legs, I suspect that you were premature with that as opposed to being late. If they haven't popped out by the time the tail is absorbed, then there would have been issues. 

Ed


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## c'est ma

Ed,

I do not remember hearing about the relationship of clutch frequency to SLS. Sorry if it's been mentioned many times and I've overlooked it. Could you please expand on this or point me to a thread where it was discussed?


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## Ed

Hi Diane,

This is why it is primarly a nutritional issue.... A lot of the vitamins for early development (and later in the case of obligate egg feeders) of the tadpoles is deposited into the egg by the female during egg formation. This includes vitamins and minerals that are essential for developement. As the limb buds develop very very early in tadpole development, insufficient (or excess) maternally deposited vitamins and minerals can then affect the development of the legs. Now if the female is depositing clutches more frequently than the reserves of these items can be replaced/stored for ovipostion, then there can will be developmental abnormalities with the legs. (like insufficient folic acid durign prenatal developement in human embryos). 

Ed


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## c'est ma

Thanks, Ed. That certainly makes sense.


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## mike

I had 100% SLS in both my auratus and azureus over a six month period.
I was using RO water. After reading the information here, I decided to go to RO with RO Right. I continued to have 100% SLS. The feeding regiment for the breeders remained the same throughout this time. I then started using aged tap water and continued to have SLS. About ready to give up at this time but it dawned on me that I had not changed the water in the bottle that I sprayed the eggs with while they are developing. I changed the spray bottle for the eggs to aged tap water and all eggs sprayed only with aged tap water have developed into froglets with beautiful fat legs and are all doing well. I have about 10 froglets and 3 more that will be climbing out in the next week. This suggest to me that it may be linked to the very early stages of egg development. 
Thanks for this thread.


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## dragonfrog

What was in the spray bottle before you changed it?


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## mike

Straight RO water.


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## dragonfrog

So you use aged tap water to spray on the eggs as they develop. Once they develop into tads you use RO w/ RO right? Is this correct?
I wonder then if you would get the same result if you used aged tap water through out the process? Do away with RO w/RO right all together? It would make since, since there is no RO water in the wild.


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## mike

No, I use aged tap water for everything now. Even to mist the tanks.


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## c'est ma

Do you know how hard your tap water is?


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## mike

I do not know the hardness of my water. All I know is that I was having 100% SLS in my froglets (aratus & azureus). These numbered 50 to 60 froglets. I was using RO water then I changed to RO with RO Right. After reading Ed's comments about their results with aged tap water, I tried tried aged tap water and continued to have 100% SLS but I did notice that some of the froglet's front legs were alittle better but they still had SLS. Then I realized that I had not changed the water in the spray bottle that I misted the eggs with. After changing the water in the spray bottle to aged tap water, all froglets which I have only used aged tap water on from the first misting of the eggs to the tad containers, have all been big and fat with strong healthy legs. The type of water is the only change that I have made. Feeding scheuled, food type, vitamins, lighting and temperture all remained unchanged for the tads and the breeders.
Thanks for the info Ed!


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## c'est ma

That's a pretty strong recommendation. My well water is so hard, though...but I think Ed mentioned that it would be okay...


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## phillipe3838

Hello frogger’s (and frogette’s 8) ) I’m new b at posting :lol: 

Got a question about spindly leg syndrome
If a parent has spindly leg syndrome, will that affect the breeding, mating and reproduction cycle :?: 
if a parent has spindly leg syndrome will the off spring will be affected too
even if one would use the best water and the best nutrition for the tad and including a U.V.A/U.V.B compact full spectrum fluorescent expose for 8 hours per day :?:


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## stchupa

That's a pretty good question.

I have no definate answer than the ratio of SLS offspring would most likely be higher than say in the average frog.

Genetics seems to play a part, but this could also be confused w/ contact (contraction throughout one group then expanded) and low diversity of begining genetic material able to work with.


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## stchupa

phillipe3838 said:


> Hello frogger’s (and frogette’s 8) ) I’m new b at posting :lol:
> 
> Got a question about spindly leg syndrome
> If a parent has spindly leg syndrome, will that affect the breeding, mating and reproduction cycle :?:
> 
> 
> 
> Forgot the other :?:
> 
> The answer for this would certainly be yes. If the animal is inhibited/disabled in some way it will make everything in its life that much more difficult. It would be less successful at deposting it's young, obtaining food, evading predators... Of course I'm considering wild not just captive. In the case of a 'house' animal it would be much less effected by this simply because it/everything else is contained/restricted.
Click to expand...


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## phillipe3838

Thank you
Yes I am unfortunately talking about "house" frog
it seem that one of my male has a small deformation on the left rear leg and I never notice it till now!!?!?
well I never got a good look at it since he as been in a community tank with 3 more mate and the vivarium is well planted(really well planted :shock: )


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## phillipe3838

Thank you


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## stchupa

Frogs will typically not be hindered much/if at all by a rear leg deformity (when compared to the front). This may or may not be catagorized as spindly.
Probably due to something completely unrelated as early trauma.


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## phillipe3838

Thank stcupa  

can you elaborate on the subject please
the deformity is on the back left leg @ the joint before the toe pad,
it look as if it as an extra bone( kid you not)
like a extra 1/8 of an inch extension bone between the toe pad(@ the ankle )and the ankle itself :shock:


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## phillipe3838

how do i up load a picture?[/img]


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## stchupa

phillipe3838 said:


> Thank stcupa
> 
> can you elaborate on the subject please


Well, I can try, not my place and most want to keep it that way.

First of all what subject? SLS or malformation/deformation?



> the deformity is on the back left leg @ the joint before the toe pad,
> it look as if it as an extra bone( kid you not)
> like a extra 1/8 of an inch extension bone between the toe pad(@ the ankle )and the ankle itself :shock:


Hard to say what could be effectig it. The cause will remain unknown for now. Potentially a # of things. Genetic malidies/mutation (due to an invariable #), early developmental trauma, parasitizing of group tissue trauma/repair, something enviromental natural/unatural, hybridizing, or more likely extended inbreeding.

I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of this.


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## c'est ma

Phillipe,

Your pictures need to be hosted somewhere online, such as ImageShack or the DendroBoard gallery, first. You will find lots of threads on this subject if you search. 

I agree with stchupa that a back leg deformity is probably not spindly leg, which I believe always affects the front legs.

If you think the deformity is genetic, you might think twice about letting the frog breed. However, if it is due to some injury or environmental factor, and if the frog is now healthy and active, I would think it would not be a problem.

(Don't be surprised if the moderators decide to split this off into its own thread...  )

BTW, the jury is still out on the necessity of UVA/UVB for these frogs.


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## phillipe3838

ok i took a picture and i am trying to up load just give me a few minutes 8)


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## phillipe3838

ok hope this work :shock:


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## phillipe3838

Notice the lower right toe pad is strait up instead of been flat like the other one?


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## stchupa

My eyesight is 'good', but not that 'good'.


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## phillipe3838

better?
sorry had to resize it :shock: 
like i sayd i'm really green at this :roll: lol


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## stchupa

phillipe3838 said:


> better?


Much


> sorry had to resize it :shock:
> like i sayd i'm really green at this :roll: lol


Better than I'll ever be, I dare to try.

I take it you mean my right not the frogs.
Looks like no big deal, probably got twisted/broke/dislocated?

One thing I notice is what would be the frog's right thumb which seems shorter and to be missing the pad? Could just be the pic, but I tend to notice things I maybe should/n't.


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## phillipe3838

nop. it's there.
Scare me for a second... :? 
... hade to go take a second look at my frog :shock: 
just a bad angle ,it kind a line up with the limb itself :!:


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## c'est ma

Yeah, in trying to see what you meant about the back toe, I noticed the thumb thing myself! Figured it was just the camera angle, though, or you'd have mentioned it.

I have to agree that I can't see much wrong with the toe in question, certainly not something that would seem to impact breeding if the frog is otherwise robust. (Nice shot, BTW.)


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## phillipe3838

It's not the toe, but the whole toe pad (the entire foot is pointing up :? )


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## Ed

snip "Got a question about spindly leg syndrome 
If a parent has spindly leg syndrome, will that affect the breeding, mating and reproduction cycle "endsnip

The correct answer is maybe. SLS is a spectrum disorder with a range of how badly it affects the animal. You can get animals that are only slightly affected (can be determined visually) and can function just fine to animals that cannot even feed themselves. 


isnip "f a parent has spindly leg syndrome will the off spring will be affected too even if one would use the best water and the best nutrition for the tad and including a U.V.A/U.V.B compact full spectrum fluorescent expose for 8 hours per day "endsnip

Again the answer is maybe. There were some early publication (in ADG for example) that discussed a genetic component. The current theory is that there can be a genetic component but that these cases are probably being hidden in the large number of nutritionally/enviromentally caused causes). 
There was one publication on the potential uses of UVB in resolving SLS (see the appropriate BDG publication) in dart frogs but in general excessive exposure to UV lighting can be a problem for tadpoles. In the wild they have access to shelture which would allow them to manipulate their exposure to the UV lighting.

I strongly suspect that your case is not the result of SLS but a mechanical injury (only way to tell would be to do histology on the toe). 

Ed


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## phillipe3838

Ed
Thank you that was really useful info
and I appreciate for the time you took to reply to my question  

See my mane concern is to NOT breed any animals with any disease

I am relief to find some light at the end of the tunnel

How do one would go about to do an "histology"?
what is it require
Tissue sample, bone, blood...etc?


Phil


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## Ed

You would need to get the toe amputated and then sectioned onto a slide and reviewed by a exotic animal pathologist. Not cheap... 

For reported cases of SLS, there has't been any reports of only a toe being affected but that doesn't mean that it isn't the case... 

mechanical injuries to the toes/feet may not be the everyday case but I wouldn't say that they are rare.. 

Ed


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## phillipe3838

Ouch!
I don’t know about cutting the little guy toe or toe pad off  

I don’t think I could live with my self if some one would show up one day a snip my foot off :shock: 

But the good news is that my male Azurus would most likely not survive this long right :?: 

from the picture... ... you lean in favor of mechanical injury
and I can see that you have posted may tread so I will take your expertise and be very happy i am not going to snip my little guy toe pad off  
by the way the male Azurus is about 13 month old


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## Ed

Actually toe clips have been used as a method of marking frogs for furture identification for a long time (although it is a little more controversial now). In captivity this doesn't have a significant impact on the survivial of the frogs. (Even amputation of a foot can be accomplished in captivity with good results if there is proper support). 

Ed


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