# can Azureus lay egg when only female present?



## blackpiranha (Jun 1, 2013)

Hi, froggers

I have 4 Azureus, but their eggs always turned white. I am not sure about how many male or female was there.if its possible all of them are females? Will dart frogs lay eggs if there are only females? like a hen?


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

It would be pretty rare for a female to lay eggs without a male present. Do a google search on "dendroboard.com always bad eggs". Dendroboard's search query does not work with 3 letter words.


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## holmarie (Nov 30, 2015)

It s possible, but with 4, it is not the likely scenario.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I think it's also unlikely. If you don't mind me asking some questions maybe we can help get you going on good eggs. How often are you feeding them, how often are you dusting with supplements (which supplements are you using), and how old are the frogs?


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

I have also wondered about this. I have a pair of cobalts that have yet to get it right. And while I have no trouble sexing my tincs this pair definitely has me perplexed.to me they both look female, but lay pretty regularly.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Aborted eggs have been reported in a wide variety of frogs. 

I've personally seen it in multiple taxa including mantellas, Ceratobatrachus guentheri, and a number of hylids and ranids. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

It's not too common for dart frogs to lay eggs in the absence of a male, but it's definitely not unheard of. I think I usually hear about it most when frogs are stressed, such as when shipped. 

Bad eggs can be caused by a number of things and Reef_Haven's suggestion is a good starting point, especially if you do have a male. 

John


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should note that it is also generally better for the frogs to abort the mature eggs than to retain them. Mature eggs that are retained can form adhesions to surrounding tissues which can contribute to health issues down the road. 

See Wright, Kevin M., and Brent R. Whitaker. Amphibian medicine and captive husbandry. Krieger Publishing Company, 2001. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## rmp (Oct 28, 2015)

As Ed said, many frog species will lay infertile eggs, but with 4 frogs there is a decent probability of at least one male in there. Perhaps you could listen out for calling?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On a random side thought, if there are more than one female, then you could have competition preventing the fertilization of the eggs. Female tinctorius defend access to the males and they can get into the dish disrupting the cues for the male to deposit the sperm (this is generally done before the eggs are deposited). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

so..the female lays the egg first and then it is fertilized? Is there a way to determine whether, in fact, fertilization has taken place?


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

Judy S said:


> so..the female lays the egg first and then it is fertilized? Is there a way to determine whether, in fact, fertilization has taken place?


i skimmed through this section in the book i'm reading so i can double check my facts when i get home from work if anyone wants me to, but if i recall correctly, frogs that lay eggs in the water will release egg and sperm at the same time, and frogs that lay eggs on land will drop sperm first then the egg will be dropped on top.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

macuser said:


> iy eggs on land will drop sperm first then the egg will be dropped on top.


Correct. This is how multiple females can disrupt the fertilization. If the courtship proceeds to close to the point that the male is to deposit the sperm and a second female disrupts it, the male may leave before he deposits the sperm. So if the eggs are still laid then they won't be fertilized. 

In many cases with aborted eggs they tend to be deposited in inappropriate locations and potentially even scattered around in ones or twos (or partial clutches in those that lay large numbers of eggs). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

So the time the female is in the "hut" is more important to the process....does the fertilized egg change color as soon as it is fertilized, or is the early process of a "bad" egg. Today when I pulled a clutch, there were a couple of black ones, a couple of white, and a few that were a little of both...so I very carefully separated the eggs from one another to see whether it resulted in any better success....


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

From what I've observed with my azureus they start out black and will turn white after a while if the eggs are bad. You should be able to see growth after a few days and they will look like a coma with a curly tail soon thereafter. 

It can take a while for a pair to get it together even when they are not distracted by other competing frogs. Be patient...


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I was just curious whether there were any noticeable changes with a fertilized vs. an unfertilized egg....I've seen LOTS of bad eggs...lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> I was just curious whether there were any noticeable changes with a fertilized vs. an unfertilized egg....I've seen LOTS of bad eggs...lol


Judy,

there are a number of changes but they occur at specific points in the development stage of the embryo and some are hard to see unless you catch the eggs almost immediately after they have been laid such as the rotation of the embryo shortly after fertilization (you can use the chart here for comparision http://www.virginiaherpetologicalso...phibian-development/amphibian-development.htm (and they even have a printable one in a pdf format). 

Back in the day this rotation of the embryo was classically described as a vegetable pole (yolk) and animal pole (the embryo) and is the first sign of a fertile egg. 

Even though there can be some variations in the development this is still a pretty accurate representation of the stages the egg will go through. 

Some comments 

Ed


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