# How do you set up a waterfall stream in a dart frog vivarium?



## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

I've been working on setting up a dart frog vivarium in a 38 gallon tank. I have an idea of how I want it to look like. This includes a stream going diagonally down the tank. I started with pvc piping and siliconed sand and pebbles to it making it look more natural. I just don't really know how powerful of a pump I need for the stream? I was thinking at the bottom of the stream I'd have a small pool that would bring the water back down thru the false bottom and wrap back around to the pump. I also have been reading and a lot of people say you need a way to access the pump...I'm not quite sure how to do that because I will have to silicone the glass canopy to the tank so fruit flies won't escape. If anyone has advice I'd appreciate it!! 
Thanks!


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## dtown (Jan 5, 2011)

Welcome to the hobby, your going to love it! As for the waterfall and stream there are a bunch of ways that you can make it. I would suggest that you use the search function. There you can see peoples style and technique. Good luck and show a construction thread.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

There's more than one way to skin a cat....

I suggest spending a couple hours looking at other peoples construction journals for ideas/help. There's a ton of great info to be found inside....


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

get the 285 gph submersible pump at harbor freight. $24


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

I have a 20 gallon long tank that is already set up...with honestly too many darts in it for them to be comfortable...the 38 gallon originally had crested geckos but I got bored and decided to sell them at a reptile swap and use the money to go toward a new setup for my frogs. As of right now what I have for supplies consists of my 38 gal tank (obviously) with glass canopy, High Output florescent for the plants. I got the light on ebay for a really good price. Egg Crate for the false bottom already cut to fit, PVC pipe that has been cut down the middle and I have siliconed sand and pebbles to it so it has a natural look (I'm using this for the stream), I have two cans of Great Stuff foam (Most people recommended this to me), Eco earth for the plant substrate, I also have a huge supply of corkbark in different shapes and sizes and some drift wood that I've used in my ball python & gecko cages in the past. I just ordered a Mini Jet 606 online for my stream, I didn't want anything too powerful because I just want a slight stream nothing overwhelming. I work at a pet store so most of the time we aren't busy i spend my time brain storming how I want my tank to look. After doing some looking around I know I want to get some Air plants and silicone them to the background, from what I understand as long as you don't bother the leaves they are easy to take care of in high humidity settings.

I'm actually doing something with my frogs that a lot of people have said is a bad idea, but I've had them for almost a year now and I haven't lost any or had any problems with feeding. I have 6 frogs total, I started with just two Auratus (Green & Blue), Then added onto that and got two Tincs, Then about a month ago I got one more Tinc and a Bumblebee (Yellow & Black Banded). I have read many reports and heard people say how bad it is to mix species, but honestly mine have been doing great, I haven't observed any aggressive behavior, the auratus typically stick together and so do the two tincs, the two newer frogs I got last month normally just do their own thing. In my 20 long right now I have plenty of places for them to hide including Pothos (thats largely over grown but the frogs love climbing on it), Coco huts (2x), & Cork bark. But I understand that the tank is going to be too small once they are all adults thats why I've been working on this 38 gallon. I hope to have it ready within the next two months so I can transfer them over. I can't wait! =)


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

you need to build two tanks and split all those frogs up.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

i see the need for three tanks the 38 to have the tincs, the 20 can hold the auratus, and a 10 for the leuco's


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

I've been reading about why you shouldn't mix the species. Other than aggressive behavior and the threat of cross breeding, why not?

Like i said previously mine have all been eating well and growing. I haven't noticed any aggressive behavior.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

motydesign said:


> i see the need for three tanks the 38 to have the tincs, the 20 can hold the auratus, and a 10 for the leuco's


sorry, meant to say build two MORE tanks.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

bmcdarts said:


> I've been reading about why you shouldn't mix the species. Other than aggressive behavior and the threat of cross breeding, why not?


If you cross-breed, it's like introducing an ENORMOUS amount of uncertainty into the genetic lines of the hobby. You're dealing with frogs that do not naturally encounter each other in the wild, and while all is good now, just wait until they get older. Err on the side of caution, man - these frogs are expensive, do you really want them potentially killing each other? If so, can you send me $100 per frog you have, since you're so willing to throw money away?


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm going to leave the 20 gallon set up just in case. But I have no intention to breed my frogs until I'm more familiar with this hobby. I understand I might sound dumb to some more experienced people about mixing them. What are the signs of aggression I should be looking for? & the frogs I have I purchased at reptile shows for around $30 to $45 a piece. I don't plan on killing them, I'm still learning. I haven't had one die yet and its been a year.


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

Why is it that all the posts I read about mixing the frogs people who said you can't do it seem so rude. I have yet to hear a good reason why you can't. Has anyone on here actually experienced their frogs being aggressive or has anyone had a problem keeping frogs of different species alive? I will find a way to trade in my frogs if I'm having a problem but so far I haven't. I don't want to harm my frogs, I just wish someone would give me good enough reason to take them apart. If they live together in the wild why is it so bad to keep them together in captivity. If I ever get a good answer that makes me understand why it is so bad then I might change my idea about my 38. But until then. My frogs are healthy and happy!


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

bmcdarts said:


> If they live together in the wild why is it so bad to keep them together in captivity





dfrmav said:


> You're dealing with frogs that do not naturally encounter each other in the wild


Auratus is from Panama; Tincs are from French Guyana and Surinam; Leucs are from Venezuela

Source: Saurian Enterprises, Inc


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## Finchfrogs15 (Apr 28, 2011)

just hit up youtube and search for "dart frog vivarium waterfall" this is how i got ideas of how to make my first viv. good luck and i would love to see some pics when you get it up and running


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## froggymike (Jan 11, 2010)

They do not all live together in the wild and while you don't plan on breeding them, the frogs may have other plans. Part of being on this hobby is about conservation. Mixing the species is very frowned upon here. It sucks because the zoos do it and teach new comers to the hobby that it is ok. Keeping the morphs separate is hard enough without mixing. And yes people get very angry when you post about mixing. Help yourself out and build another tank. I mean this with all sincerity.


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

I know this is a little off topic, I just feel the need to put my 2 cents in... While Ive yet to be a dart frog owner, I will be within the next few months and I have no intent to mix breeds I also don't think all of you dart owners really have a real good explanation as to why its not good to mix. Now as I don't know this for a fact I'm pretty sure that the people who work at a zoo that may set up these dart displays you speak of, are most likely WAY more experienced then us who do this as a hobby as aposed to for a living. So A. If they know it is ok to mix I can safely assume that they would be right and B. Where do you guys think all these different color/species of darts came from? Do you think there was one breed who morphed into another and then another and another etc.... It would be safe to assume that a few of the species you guys know of have cross breeded to make another species you guys like. So as I do not wish to start trouble I simply don't like when people are so rude to new comers and then can't even come up with a good explanation as to why not to mix. if you do not wish to mix then don't! Stop demanding that others must do as you, I mean seriously, the best reason you could come up with is we don't want cross breeds in the hobby.... This kid is obviously new to the hobby do you honestly think he is going to/capable of breeding these frogs? When he is more experienced and hears it more and more he will probably stop mixing breeds, every new comer wants to do mixed species tanks when they are just starting. So simmer down and stop bashing! He didnt ask your opinion on how to keep HIS darts he simply asked advice how to create a waterfall. If you don't have advice then don't post!


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

tgregoire said:


> If they know it is ok to mix I can safely assume that they would be right and B. Where do you guys think all these different color/species of darts came from? Do you think there was one breed who morphed into another and then another and another etc.... It would be safe to assume that a few of the species you guys know of have cross breeded to make another species you guys like...Stop demanding that others must do as you, I mean seriously, the best reason you could come up with is we don't want cross breeds in the hobby.... This kid is obviously new to the hobby do you honestly think he is going to/capable of breeding these frogs?


I slimmed down the above quote to really get at what i think are the most important issues

First, I'm pretty sure zookeepers mix juveniles as opposed to adults, and they're in a large enough tank that mixing isn't as much of a problem as having 6 in a 20 gallon. 

Second, zookeepers don't sell the offspring of whatever crossbreeding occurs - keepers in the hobby, on the other hand, may, and probably do. I have a right to demand that others keep the hobby that I love, that I invest in, and that I support, in good standing, particularly when I'm going to be dropping some hefty coin. There's a buyer's confidence that I don't want eroded by amateurs. 

Third, it's irrelevant that THIS kid isn't capable of breeding at THIS point. The rule shouldn't have exceptions for people who aren't capable of breeding. That's like requiring a license for all gun purchasers, except for the ones that we trust won't kill people. An extreme example, yes, but it gets the point across.

Fourth, if you read anything in the above posts, there's a concern about aggression. That obviously implicates ethical concerns regarding how we keep animals in such a way as to avoid cruel living conditions. 

Fifth, I'm not about to support anyone who wants to embark on a mission to artificially create something that may or may not naturally occur in the wild. Such intentional inter-specie manipulation is tantamount to "playing Darwin" or "playing God," whichever view you take. Hands off the evolutionary process.


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok... I understand your reasoning. 

BUT....If you read the above post you would have read this- bmcdarts: But I understand that the tank is going to be too small once they are all adults thats why I've been working on this 38 gallon. So obviously they are juveniles there sunshine.

Second, If you are so concerned about random people breeding and selling mixes than buy from high quality breeders and not some random person on a forum or whatever...its honestly quite simple to do.

Third, when states start requiring licenses for keeping frogs then you can start to think that you have the authority to set rules for other people in the hobby who have spent THEIR own "coin" on THEIR own frogs.

Fourth, If YOU didnt jump into this post like a wild babboon trying to attack a bananna tree, and actually read any of the post. He stated more than once that there is no aggression in his tank, all the frogs are healthy and he plans on moving them to a bigger setup before they are adults....

And Fifth, no one on this post is "embarking" on any missions to play god. So simmer down there Indianna Jones. Have you ever seen a dart that was mixed species for sale? Of course you have right? Let me let you in on a little secret there boy genius....if you see a dart that looks sketchy, DON"T buy it. Its actually a pretty simple concept if you took the time to think before you went jumpoing all over every new comer in the hobby. So until you become the dart police I think you should keep your coin in your pocket and try your best to keep your 2 cents from slipping out of your uneducated mouth.

Thanks and come again dfrmav.


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Btw, bmcdarts. I DO NOT mean to hijack or ruin your post in anyway shape or form. I just get very frustrated with these know it all dart keepers who think they can bully all the new comers around, although I do highly recomend you seperate those frogs before sexual maturity I would never think I have the right to tell you what you can and can't do with YOUR frogs. As far as the waterfall goes, I agree with the rest of the nice people in the hobby, the best way to figure stuff like this out is by searching. I would just type in sumthing like "waterfall construction" or something similar and you will get quite a few posts that show you step by step how to build your waterfall. Good luck to you and happy herpin.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

tgregoire said:


> Ok... I understand your reasoning.
> 
> BUT....If you read the above post you would have read this- bmcdarts: But I understand that the tank is going to be too small once they are all adults thats why I've been working on this 38 gallon. So obviously they are juveniles there sunshine.
> 
> ...


Okay, first of all, enough with the name-calling. Not only have you shot your credibility to hell, but you've proven that I've aggravated you. 

Second, yes, I know he is building a 38 gallon. But that doesn't solve his problem. He has 3 species and two tanks, hence my other post about building a third tank. 

Third, you completely missed the point of my licensing analogy. The point was that there shouldn't be exceptions to some rules, especially when the criteria for the exception is just bogus.

Fourth, I don't care that there isn't aggression in his tank, yet. If he doesn't build another tank, there will be. We all know that aggression CAN and DOES happen, so at this point, it's beyond foreseeable - it's a conscious disregard of a fact that is highly likely to occur. It's recklessness, essentially, which is highly unethical even before any aggression happens. And the fact that you're basing your whole argument on what ONE guy said about his frogs is preposterous, considering he doesn't observe them all day long, and we also don't know the stress effects from visibility alone. 

Finally, don't assume that just because there's cross breeding, that automatically means it's visible. It may not be, which is exactly why the concern is so high. You can never know 100% without a DNA test and no one's going to pay for that.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

You guys can continue your mixing crap while I try to answer the original questions....

As for the pump, find something with a "head height" value larger then the maximum water height needed. Also, find something with variable flow so you can turn it down if it pumps to much water. Home depot carries great pumps with varying powers, at decent prices also.

As for hiding the pump, if depends on how your tank is setup. Some people make false backs so that they can reach inside and pull out the pump if needed. Search "canada day weekend build" and go to my very first few posts to see how this is done. I wouldnt permanently silicone your top in if you plan a false back though, it would defeat the purpose. Another alternative is to make a small box for the pump somewhere in the land area, and then cover it up with a cap or something. You could also just place the pump in the pond area and cover it with rocks....Or if you wanna get fancy try a sump setup.


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

i got my pump from marine-depot.com. Mini-Jet Powerhead


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Dfrmav, you are the only one who is aggravated here. I am very unconcerned about my "credibility", I have no one to impress. Im simply trying to prove a point....which is obviously going right over your head because you are to fixated on having authority to set rules in many peoples hobby. I dont agree with him keeping them together and I clearly stated that many times! But I also do not believe I have the authority to tell him what he can and cant do with his frogs, period.

Second, your licensing analogy was more preposterous than this entire arguement....when we start using frogs to kill people, then maybe we will understand your analogy. You really dont understand that there is NO rules to keeping frogs, which inturn means that there is no such thing as an exception. Period end of story...your arguement that there are exceptions to the "rules" being made is in my eyes totally crushed, so you can stop posting about it anytime.

Third, your aggression arguement is also rediculous. It is not happening in his tank and even if it was that is his individual decision to keep frogs how he wants. Aggression is something that naturally occurs in the wild so to say that what he is doing, in short, is animal cruelty, is honestly one of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. Unless you want to march through the jungle to stop every occurence of frog aggression this arguement is also totally crushed. Thats like saying putting an anole in a tank for the sole purpous of food is also animal cruelty...

And finally, you proved my point on your own and you dont even know it... 



> don't assume that just because there's cross breeding, that automatically means it's visible. It may not be, which is exactly why the concern is so high. You can never know 100% without a DNA test and no one's going to pay for that.


 Basically you are saying that there is a good chance that your own personal frogs may be a small percent mix. Which is totally killing your "buyers confidence" arguement, because obviously your a little sketched out about your own collection. Which means that there was no buyers confidence to begin with. Something else I would like to point out is that everything evolves, whether it be by accident or on purpose or caused by a third party that is erelavent. Animals adapt to overcome, thats all there is to it. I would also be willing to bet that if you actually got a dna test for your frogs (which makes you seem a little obsessive compulsive over the hobby) or of a frog that comes from a high end breeder, you will see small traces of other species genes because this is how all these different species of dart came to be, it was from cross breeding. We dont stop french people from having kids with hispanic people....so your point about him not preserving the species is totally idiotic. Stop trying to be a controlling obsessive compulsive frog ruler because none of your arguements hold up. This is my last post on this absolutely rediculous arguement. Keep your frogs how you want to and he'll keep his how he wants. That is the beauty of living in a free country. If you dont like what the hobby is turning into then find a new one. I dont know who you think you are, but you have absolutely no authority what so ever to tell anyone how to keep any of their animals. Good luck with your seamingly unhappy life, some people just cant be happy without being upset. Happy herpin!


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

I didn't know a simple question would cause such a heated debate! I was just wondering. Calm down guys...oh and btw I am a girl hah!

Thanks to everyone for the advice. After I did some research I ordered a Mini Jet 606 and my plan is that I am going to have a corner of the tank reserved for the pump behind a large peice of PVC piping that will have holes drilled to let water through. I won't silicone that corner and I plan on making it so I can access it for cleaning and what not. The stream will run down diagonally from right to left and at the bottom it will then be attached to a disguised funnel that will be hidden from rocks. The funnel will have some tubing connected so the water will go into the false bottom and circulate back out through the pump. I will put pictures up as soon as I get the time to put it together! Being a full time college student has its disadvantages when it comes to hobby's =P.

As for my frogs I am going to keep the 20 Long up for the Leuc because it is the smallest and most vulnerable frog I have. The others have been doing great. I respect the hobby and in no way do I want to cause any harm to these frogs I will observe them every day and if I notice any harm coming to any of them I will separate them to stop any aggression that may be happening. I respect everyone's view and thank you guys for taking the time to give me your opinions. I said earlier that i work at a pet store and I'm used to giving new comers advice about how to keep their animals so since I am newer to this hobby I will take everything I have heard and use it as I continue to learn! 

Thanks! 
BMc


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tgregoire said:


> , you will see small traces of other species genes because this is how all these different species of dart came to be, it was from cross breeding. We dont stop french people from having kids with hispanic people....so your point about him not preserving the species is totally idiotic


You should review the literature as the vast majority of speciation is not based on hybridization events and this is certainly the case for these frogs. .... 

I'm not going to bother to deconstruct all of your arguments but this one is definetly an argument from ignorance. 

Ed


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## WaynePaulette (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow. I feel as though i just wasted some time reading parts of this. 

Nice to see a new female in the hobby. Ed and Grimm are very note worthy in construction and species in general. I'd listen to them.

Just as a few inputs from me, i was interested in putting a drip wall/waterfall/stream kind of thing in my tank originally and once i got started i drifted away from it. Yes they are cool and pleasing to the viewer, but the frogs don't care either way. It will help with humidity but in all reality you don't need one for the frogs. It takes up space that could be used for land area for the frogs or plant room.

I am no longer putting one in my tank. Its also a hassle getting everything to do the water feature and maintaining it. Water is never fun to try and control. It doesnt listen well.

Welcome to Dendroboard. Search functions and Youtube are very helpful in general though for ideas and tips.

-Wayne

PS>> Check out GRIMM's build. If he ever updates us its worth the view.


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## Gert-Jan (Oct 4, 2008)

Another topic filled with mixing species crap and 'experts".

What was this about?
O yeah! Setting up a waterfal!!!

The pipe thats is going to be drilled for waterflow to the pump: Maybe put some filter medium in that pipe together with the pump and pull some panties OVER that pipe to make sure big chunks of dirt clog the pump.

Maybe I'm repeating what others have said, but I just jumped to the LAST PAGE and found out your topic was taken over by, well, people not caring about ...... up someone else's topic with their own little fight for 
"I who knows best"!..

Very common species on Forums btw...
(could be a tv show! dingding! fight!)
Greetings from The Netherlands.


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Hahaha. Bmcdarts I was honestly thinking that the entire time...I apologize for calling you a guy! I also enjoy seeing women in this hobby as most dont like to get their hands dirty. Lol. I would also like to apologize again for hijacking your thread as it was pretty childish. I can honestly say I read all your posts and feel as though know matter what choice you make on keeping YOUR frogs you will be a responsible frog owner. I also like the sounds of your waterfall setup and believe the mini jet 600 will work just fine for you. Good luck and happy herpin.


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Ed, This is a little something I put together in five minutes which I believe justifies my previous statement to dfrmav. 

Controversy,

This topic is the subject of heated controversy at times, but the final argument from my point of view has always been that these frogs do not come with a pedigree or any information as to the frogs past. So while the person who produces the cross knows perfectly well what it is, and he tells the person that he sells it to, that person may give the frogs away, or breed them to each other, and at some point in a year or five, the information is lost, and they show up on the internet as the morph they most closely resemble.

Listed below are the Poison Dart Frogs that are regularly available.

Dendrobates azureus, 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Giant Orange", 
Dendrobates tinctorius " Alanis", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Green Sipaliwini", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Blue Sipaliwini", 
Dendrobates tinctorius " Inferalanis" , 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Brazilian Cobalt", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Oyapock", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Citronella", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Patricia", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "French Guiana Cobalt", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Powderblue", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Regina", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Yellowback", 
Dendrobates tinctorius "Surinam Cobalt”

All of this information has been taken directly from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.

If his statement about morph names getting lost, was true then all the tinc morph names he listed would have gotten lost along the way....










Dendrobates azureus with mate , Dendrobates tinctorius "Yellowback".









Which produces another color morph of tinctorius known as Dendrobates tinctorius "Surinam Cobalt”.

These two pictures and text were taken from Encyclopedia of Life.

Now I mean no disrespect to anyone on this site or either of the sites I took info from, and please correct me if Im wrong, but these two frogs are the same genus name dendrobates, but they are a different species, one is a tinctorius and one is an azureus. So basically everyone who agrees with dfrmav is talking themselves in a circle because all three of these frogs pictured are popular choices in the dart hobby. So to say you don't like hybrids is a very incorrect statement. I also think you hit the nail on the head when you said this was an arguement driven by ignorance.....but I strongly disagree that is is coming from my side. In the long run I agree with dfrmav, that it is just an easier and more proper way to keep darts when you keep them seperated by species. I dislike very much how much disrespectfull adittude is used when "demanding" how others keep THEIR frogs. That is the sole purpose I even posted back to anyone regarding mixing species. There are much nicer ways to welcome uneducated new comers to the hobby than by yelling at them that they are not doing it correctly. Its called giving constructive criticism, like I have said to her* atleast once when I posted back to her. That is all I'm trying to say! I don't want any enemys in the hobby and I HATE when people are so negative to others who are learning. I apologize for any feelings hurt (dfrmav), and that is how I will end the mixing arguement from my side of it. Happy herpin to all!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would have preferred to not hijack the thread further which is why I didn't deconstruct your position earlier. It is clear that you have decided to force the issue. Hopefully the thread will be moved if the Mods decide instead of deleting it. 



tgregoire said:


> Controversy,
> 
> This topic is the subject of heated controversy at times, but the final argument from my point of view has always been that these frogs do not come with a pedigree or any information as to the frogs past. So while the person who produces the cross knows perfectly well what it is, and he tells the person that he sells it to, that person may give the frogs away, or breed them to each other, and at some point in a year or five, the information is lost, and they show up on the internet as the morph they most closely resemble.


While people occasionally debate a visual identification of a morph, given the long lifespan of the frogs (which is up to 25 years for Dendrobates ssp) so animals close to the original imports are available. In addition, there are good photos of the type specimens with locality data (see Dendrobates tinctorius morphguide for one example) or Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandry that if used gives a good method to correctly allot animals.



tgregoire said:


> Listed below are the Poison Dart Frogs that are regularly available.
> 
> All of this information has been taken directly from Saurian Enterprises, Inc.
> 
> If his statement about morph names getting lost, was true then all the tinc morph names he listed would have gotten lost along the way....


You are attempting to define commonly available as the only morphs available which is incorrect and misleading. Actually there has been little or no loss of names. In a couple of cases phenotypes within a morph were renamed by breeders but they haven't actually been lost... 

I am editing out the pictures for brevity. 




tgregoire said:


> Dendrobates azureus with mate , Dendrobates tinctorius "Yellowback".
> 
> Which produces another color morph of tinctorius known as Dendrobates tinctorius "Surinam Cobalt”.
> 
> These two pictures and text were taken from Encyclopedia of Life.


It would help if you chose a reference that provided a correct interpretation. I gave up trying to find your quoted information on thier page.. although most of the pictures are listed in yellow which means they are unreviewed... 
first off, azureus is not a different species. It is a morph of D. tinctorius

second off: the populations of azureus and yellowback do not contact in the wild and do not produce Suriname Cobalts... the last time any of the seperate morphs of tinctorius had contact was about ten thousand years ago (in the wild). See for example http://bnoonan.org/Papers/Noonan_Gaucher_06.pdf

third: Crosses between morphs are not hybrids they are crossbreds. I suggest searching the term here on the site as it has been well discussed.




tgregoire said:


> Now I mean no disrespect to anyone on this site or either of the sites I took info from, and please correct me if Im wrong, but these two frogs are the same genus name dendrobates, but they are a different species, one is a tinctorius and one is an azureus.


See my comment above about not being a different species. See for example Lotters etal... 




tgregoire said:


> So basically everyone who agrees with dfrmav is talking themselves in a circle because all three of these frogs pictured are popular choices in the dart hobby. So to say you don't like hybrids is a very incorrect statement. I also think you hit the nail on the head when you said this was an arguement driven by ignorance.....but I strongly disagree that is is coming from my side


It is an argument from ignorance.. as I noted above.. you consistently argued using incorrect information. 


.


tgregoire said:


> In the long run I agree with dfrmav, that it is just an easier and more proper way to keep darts when you keep them seperated by species. I dislike very much how much disrespectfull adittude is used when "demanding" how others keep THEIR frogs. That is the sole purpose I even posted back to anyone regarding mixing species. There are much nicer ways to welcome uneducated new comers to the hobby than by yelling at them that they are not doing it correctly. Its called giving constructive criticism, like I have said to her* atleast once when I posted back to her. That is all I'm trying to say! I don't want any enemys in the hobby and I HATE when people are so negative to others who are learning. I apologize for any feelings hurt (dfrmav), and that is how I will end the mixing arguement from my side of it. Happy herpin to all!


It also doesn't do the novice people any good to give them incorrect information such as your interpretation and information on mixing. The whole idea of a forum to share information is to pass on correct information and to root out ignorance.....


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Ed, honestly if you are worried about the mods deleting or moving the thread I think we should start a new thread in the correct location, so let me kno where that would be.....because you are incorrectly picking apart what you think I wrote, which inturn means you are agreeing with me, because you are actually picking apart what suarian says, as I was. I didnt list those morphs, he did. So he would be incorrect and misleading, not me. You also said that those phenotype names havent been lost, I agree with you, saurian said they would eventually be lost, not me. Also you falsly stated that dendrobates azureus is not a different species when actually dendrobates azureus IS a different species hence the different "species" name. If it was the same species it would be called dendrobates tinctorius "blue" or something similar. The cross breeding you are speaking of is actually helping prove my point.... All those "morphs" are caused by breeding of different species frog. If you take a pair of tincs that are exactly the same color you will never get offspring that has a different color than the parents, it is scientifically impossible. Which means somewhere in the darts history there had to be cross breeding between species to create all these morphs, cause they didnt just fall out of the sky. Now if you actually payed attention to the sites I left as referances you would see I left them for the soul purpose of showing you that I have written none of my last posts, I simply gathered information proving my case and put it right infront of you. Its not my fault that you misunderstood my post, I thought it was idiot proof.... As far as your prehistoric report stating those frogs haven't had contact for the past 10,000 years means absolutely nothing, because they DID HAVE CONTACT at some point. So whoever breeds thoughs two frogs is not trying to play god by creating something that never happenned, because IT DID HAPPEN. Ignorance is coming from your side of the arguement ONLY, because of one simple fact. I stated MANY times as clear as I could make it that this arguement is not even about the frogs, and not one piece of information is false because I got every piece of information from dart frog websites and articles similar to your prehistotric one there. I know NOTHING about dart frogs. I have never kept them. So if my information is indeed wrong than its not my fault. If you werent so ignorant you would be able to see why I am bothering to go through all this trouble, which is to prove that all you pro know-it-all dart owners don't have to be completely disrespectful to get your point across, and I don't know why you think you have so much authority in the hobby.....you are not the owner of other peoples frogs, PERIOD, END OF STORY! They will do what they please with there frogs as you will with yours, if its stupid to you it doesnt matter because they are NOT YOUR frogs!!!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tgregoire said:


> Ed, honestly if you are worried about the mods deleting or moving the thread I think we should start a new thread in the correct location, so let me kno where that would be.....


Try the louge or thunderdome. 



tgregoire said:


> because you are incorrectly picking apart what you think I wrote, which inturn means you are agreeing with me, because you are actually picking apart what suarian says, as I was. I didnt list those morphs, he did. So he would be incorrect and misleading, not me.


You included that information in your argument. I corrected where you had the wrong information. 



tgregoire said:


> Also you falsly stated that dendrobates azureus is not a different species when actually dendrobates azureus IS a different species hence the different "species" name. If it was the same species it would be called dendrobates tinctorius "blue" or something similar. .


I see you didn't bother to read the up to date pdf I provided you or look up the information in a real reference source. Your cited source of information contained a large number of errors (such as implying that tinctorius were used to provide toxins for hunting..) which if you had bothered to compare to the definitive information sources, you would have caught. Let me correct your misunderstanding of nomenclature while we are at it.. technically azureus would be known "Dendrobates tinctorius", any addition epithet would be added as an unofficial name, example 
blue poison dart frog" or as commonly used here "azureus" neither of the last two are official designations. I strongly suggest reviewing the pdf link I provided.. as you are still argueing from ignorance. 




tgregoire said:


> The cross breeding you are speaking of is actually helping prove my point.... All those "morphs" are caused by breeding of different species frog. If you take a pair of tincs that are exactly the same color you will never get offspring that has a different color than the parents, it is scientifically impossible. Which means somewhere in the darts history there had to be cross breeding between species to create all these morphs, cause they didnt just fall out of the sky


I strongly suggest reviewing genetic drift, low founder numbers, and mate choice as part of the explination. There is no evidence in the genetic review of interspecies hybridization... see the pdf I provided you. If you had a better grasp of the subject you would realize that mate choice could provide all of the different patterns in the different patterns. This is being studied in O. pumilio (see for example the pdf here http://core.ecu.edu/biol/summersk/summerwebpage/articles/Siddiqi2004_Interspecific%20and%20intraspecific%20views%20of%20color%20in%20D.%20pumilio.pdf ) 




tgregoire said:


> Now if you actually payed attention to the sites I left as referances you would see I left them for the soul purpose of showing you that I have written none of my last posts, I simply gathered information proving my case and put it right infront of you. Its not my fault that you misunderstood my post, I thought it was idiot proof....


Actually only idiots think something is idiot proof. You clearly don't have any idea what you are talking about which is why I told you are making an argument from ignorance. 



tgregoire said:


> As far as your prehistoric report stating those frogs haven't had contact for the past 10,000 years means absolutely nothing, because they DID HAVE CONTACT at some point. So whoever breeds thoughs two frogs is not trying to play god by creating something that never happenned, because IT DID HAPPEN. Ignorance is coming from your side of the arguement ONLY, because of one simple fact. I stated MANY times as clear as I could make it that this arguement is not even about the frogs,


Okay it is clear that you don't have a clue on what it means.. Arguing that there was contact along time ago does not provide support for your position as it is clear you don't understand it. 




tgregoire said:


> and not one piece of information is false because I got every piece of information from dart frog websites and articles similar to your prehistotric one there. I know NOTHING about dart frogs. I have never kept them. So if my information is indeed wrong than its not my fault. If you werent so ignorant you would be able to see why I am bothering to go through all this trouble, which is to prove that all you pro know-it-all dart owners don't have to be completely disrespectful to get your point across, and I don't know why you think you have so much authority in the hobby.....you are not the owner of other peoples frogs, PERIOD, END OF STORY! They will do what they please with there frogs as you will with yours, if its stupid to you it doesnt matter because they are NOT YOUR frogs!!!!


Actually you have consistently provided incorrect information. I cited a peer reviewed journal publication.... I suggest you look into what that actually means.. 

At least you are now admitting you know nothing about dendrobatids which by definition means you are argueing from ignorance. And it is your fault... you chose to be ignorant and to argue from a position of ignorance and when provided with the correct up to date information made a conscious choice to ignore it. You chose the position and have continued to reinforce it.

And oddly enough I suggest looking at my user page to look at what I did professionally for the last 19 years....


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## Uniceros (Mar 19, 2011)

Holy mackerel! I'm falling out of my seat! Sorry for the lack of content. It's just... A train wreck!


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

tgregoire you are so full of shit your eyes are brown. This is the most clear case of the blind leading the blind I have ever seen. Or maybe a more apt analogy would be a horses ass leading the blind. Since you're peddling nonsense any way I'll take a pint of snake oil.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Honestly I think you guys are just feeding the troll but I'll agree with Ryan 1000000% here and say I always feel bad for Ed in these situations cause he clearly has a precise and well backed argument and it's always ignored...

also, this tidbit of irony - 
A person who has never kept dart frogs on a dart frog forum complaining about the older members for thinking they know more, and then then arguing with some one who has multiple zoo jobs and thousands of sources

though if you really want to get off topic - these posts will probably disappear any way when a MOD realizes how off topic this has gotten...


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

Ed,
God Bless your patience!


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## WaynePaulette (Mar 23, 2011)

Wow. This is still so far off topic...

But yet again someone is arguing about mixing species and biological concepts when they clearly haven't done enough research...

Ed, again you astound me with your knowledge. Keep it coming and ill keep learning.

Thanks,
Wayne

Oh and Dart's good luck on your waterfall and viv. If you have any questions i would suggest tossing in another thread.


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

I think it is quite funny that this has turned into what it has. Sorry if I upset anyone who has more experience than me! BUT to get back on topic I have a few questions for anyone wanting to help me! (regarding the tank set up not the frogs, sorry to disappoint anyone =P)

Being as this is my first larger dart frog set up and I am using materials I haven't before, what is the best way to go about using the Great Stuff foam and not making a gigantic mess? If I could I would take the tank outside but I live in Ohio and it's been raining for three weeks straight. SO any advice? 

& what is the best way to attach air plants (Tillandsia) to the background so I can occasionally take them out to soak them? Some people said use silicone but I'd rather not glue plants in my tank.

Thanks.
BMcDarts


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## WaynePaulette (Mar 23, 2011)

Never done anything with the Tillsandia but i know some people use fishing line to hold plants down also.

The GreatStuff is a pain. BUT, ive done it also in my new tank. Easiest way to do it is lay down a trashbag or something in the tank to catch anything that misses. Aim and squeeze slowly. Once it starts it will continue to seep out for a second or two after you squeeze. The GreatStuff will EXPAND MORE after you spray it. Don't forget that. Start near the base and go up otherwise it will try and run downhill. Let it cure for a day or two and completely air out. After that you layer it with silicone and press coco fiber, peat or something of your choosing into the silicone while you're siliconing. Do small areas at a time with the silicone so you know it doesn't dry to fast.

-Wayne


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## tgregoire (Jul 21, 2010)

Ed, you are obviously WAY more experienced than me in keeping darts, which is why I never should have pushed that part of my arguement. I was very much irritated by the amount of people ganging up on me argueuing the wrong part of my arguement. I have ALOT of respect for senior members such as ed, I have learned a lot from his posts. I do however wish to push my original arguement with how many stuck up assholes there are on this website, that unlike ed don't provide reliable information for new comers but instead yell at them. This hobby only benifits from positive reinforcement such as ed has given. As for the rest of you that had to put in your uneducated rude ass input are exactly the same ignorant person I was being. As for hunter I clearly stated I did not know much in the area of darts, I was not trying to prove ed wrong, as it may have seemed like I was. I was simply trying to understand genus and species names as well as a little dart history. Which ed has some what straightened things out for me, except for the whole azureus, tinc thing which I do not fully understand yet. So ed I apologize for pressing the frog arguement as I have clearly gotten my information from unreliable sources. Thank you for being so respectful and showing me legitimate information from reliable sources. I wish it didn't come to this but I really hate the amount of rude bullying to new comers that goes on on this and most other forums and felt it needed to be confronted. I clearly went about doing that the wrong way.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The azureus and tinctorius thing isn't that difficult. For a long time, there was discussion about whether or not azureus was really it's own species when in the region there was another species with the same characteristics and morphology. There were also politics to keep the species seperate as azureus was an umbrella species whose existence was being used to legislate protected areas into existence and recieve funding. This went back and forth for a few years until DNA analysis was added to the morphometric analysis andthe result of the combination was that azureus was no longer considered to be it's own species but as simply a different form of tintorius. See the explination of the process in the name change here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synonym_(taxonomy)


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

bmcdarts said:


> I think it is quite funny that this has turned into what it has. Sorry if I upset anyone who has more experience than me! BUT to get back on topic I have a few questions for anyone wanting to help me! (regarding the tank set up not the frogs, sorry to disappoint anyone =P)
> 
> Being as this is my first larger dart frog set up and I am using materials I haven't before, what is the best way to go about using the Great Stuff foam and not making a gigantic mess? If I could I would take the tank outside but I live in Ohio and it's been raining for three weeks straight. SO any advice?
> 
> ...



I do all my foaming inside my condo, and I have yet to make a mess....Im a clean guy though. Just lay down some garbage bags or a large cr*ppy blanket on the floor. Also, when you finish pressing down the foam trigger, it will continue to come out the straw for the next minute or so, so always set the can down on the blanket or it will drip on unwanted areas. I try and use a minimal amount of foam to reduce carving time. If the foam begins to overexpand, I will break the skin to allow it to deflate. I have also noticed that when I do this, it is actually stronger when cured due to less large air pockets. When you start to play with the uncured foam, you can actually give it some wicked detail instead of having a big smooth blob. Just use some gloves haha. I find the best detail is acheived about 5 minutes after application. The skin starts to dry slightly but will tear and give you nice stringy details.

As for tillies (or any epiphytic plant), just use some fishing line to tie it around outcroppings, or use wire or toothpicks to brace them against flat backgrounds.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I don't work with foam backgrounds so I'm not of a lot of help... Grimm has good advice, I would follow his suggestions on working with it. 

Ed


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

Okay I have another question...Where is there a place to get just peat moss with no additives in it? Most stores sell it with fertilizers in it for plant growth and I assume that can be poisonous to the frogs.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is usually sold as "sphagnum peat moss". It is also usually sold in 3 or 5 cubic foot bales. You can get it at the big box home improvement stores, outside where they keep the bags of mulch. 

Ed


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## WaynePaulette (Mar 23, 2011)

bmcdarts said:


> Okay I have another question...Where is there a place to get just peat moss with no additives in it? Most stores sell it with fertilizers in it for plant growth and I assume that can be poisonous to the frogs.


Ed answered it already basically, but if you need other supplies people mention on here and such a good website to check out is rePotme Orchid Supplies - Orchid Mix - Orchid Pots - Orchid Care - Orchid Fertilizer

It has a little bit of everything and if you see people mention ABG mix this place sells all you need to make that substrate if you dont want to buy from a seller. Just a tidbit for help.

Keep the questions coming!

Wayne


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## Azsunspot161 (Apr 27, 2007)

bmcdarts said:


> Why is it that all the posts I read about mixing the frogs people who said you can't do it seem so rude. I have yet to hear a good reason why you can't. Has anyone on here actually experienced their frogs being aggressive or has anyone had a problem keeping frogs of different species alive? I will find a way to trade in my frogs if I'm having a problem but so far I haven't. I don't want to harm my frogs, I just wish someone would give me good enough reason to take them apart. If they live together in the wild why is it so bad to keep them together in captivity. If I ever get a good answer that makes me understand why it is so bad then I might change my idea about my 38. But until then. My frogs are healthy and happy!


In my experience, species can be mixed as youngsters, but they do begin developing aggressive tendencies and can be dangerous when mixed as juvis or adults.


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## bmcdarts (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks guys! I just got the peat moss in a 3 cubic feet package at Lowes for about $9 (not bad?). I was viewing some pictures of viv set ups and there was one I came across of a person using pvc piping and rope covered in peat moss to make it look very natural and it looked so awesome I decided I wanted to give it a shot. I bought some rope and peat moss. I just hope it turns out as cool as I'm picturing it in my head. I almost feel I need to hire someone to help me with of all these ideas I've got. =P

Has anyone ever worked with this idea before and if so how do you go about bending the pvc pipes to look like vine?? & are there other ways of glueing peat moss to things other than silicone? Silicone is so aggravating!

Brittany


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## dfrmav (Feb 22, 2011)

bmcdarts said:


> Thanks guys! I just got the peat moss in a 3 cubic feet package at Lowes for about $9 (not bad?). I was viewing some pictures of viv set ups and there was one I came across of a person using pvc piping and rope covered in peat moss to make it look very natural and it looked so awesome I decided I wanted to give it a shot. I bought some rope and peat moss. I just hope it turns out as cool as I'm picturing it in my head. I almost feel I need to hire someone to help me with of all these ideas I've got. =P
> 
> Has anyone ever worked with this idea before and if so how do you go about bending the pvc pipes to look like vine?? & are there other ways of glueing peat moss to things other than silicone? Silicone is so aggravating!
> 
> Brittany


Have a look at Grimm's "Peninsula" build in Parts and construction. He uses a product called toluene to thin out the silicone, making it easier to spread. You can't breathe that crap in, though. It's all explained in that thread. Silicone is the only way to really attach that stuff, unless you want to go with glue or something...but that's more expensive, I think.


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