# blowing cold ac air into a frog vivarium?



## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

ok so i have a display tank in the living room and its always hot so i was thinking is it ok to blow cold ac air into a frog vivarium to keep the temp cool at around 76-78F ? i know with cold air it will decress the humidity so if that does happen the auto misting turns on for 15 sec if humidity ever drops below 80% 

so with that being said can i blow cold ac air? i'm sure its just room air cooled then into the tank...


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## dam630 (Dec 11, 2009)

It will dry out the air in the viv and your automatic mister gizmo will run constantly, effectively swamping out your substrate.
Try setting up a cool mist humidifier.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

well it only takes the ac about 2-4 mins to cool down the tank then it auto shuts off when it reach the 76F and it takes anywhere from 5-20mins before it needs to turn back on again depends on how hot the room is that day...

my humidity is reading at 99% right now...


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

also heard that the vivarium doesnt need and ventilation is this right? i mean the tank is open every day maybe once every 2 days in a week or something...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Is the ac on a timer or controlled in some way that will limit how much/how.long it blows into the tank? ...If it was me I'd try diverting only a small amount at first, like air line tubing attached to a small funnel and the other end of line into the viv, if you need more go with a bigger funnel and larger diameter hose. 

I think the basic idea is very feasible. It is just a matter of finding the balance between how much cold air can you pump in and still keep humidity up.

I think some minimal ventilation is always good. The warmest air should escape out the top, and that exchange should facilitate some evaporative cooling.

You can also increase the effectiveness of your cooling by insulating the viv on the sides, back (do entirety of sides/back) and the front up to where you see in (just up to the front lawn level) with foam panels. Especially with some water in the false bottom that should help the tank hold the desired temp longer, and overall keep it from change temp up/down in any conditions. Might be overkill though on this project unless ro is really hot. (This ac/insulation idea is basically what I had planned for some cold water salamanders).


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## Charlie Q (Jul 13, 2013)

if you are pumping cold air in, you will want ventilation or else you will get pressure buildup.

if you are misting into dry air, evaporative cooling will give you a little extra temperature drop.

and good luck! i always like to hear about viv cooling ideas and their effectiveness. keep us updated.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> also heard that the vivarium doesnt need and ventilation is this right? i mean the tank is open every day maybe once every 2 days in a week or something...


Can someone explain to me where this information is passed around?!?

Nothing frustrates me more than misinformation, and that's exactly what this is.

You absolutely have to ventilate your tank, your frogs rely on evaporative cooling to cool themselves, and the only way this works is with ventilation!

Furthermore, you don't need to pump air conditioned air directly into your tank to cool it down. Cool the room, ventilate the tank, and the tank will cool right down with the rest of the room.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

Dev30ils said:


> Can someone explain to me where this information is passed around?!?
> 
> Nothing frustrates me more than misinformation, and that's exactly what this is.
> 
> ...


here are some source i found that says about the ventilation part...

1. Poison Dart Frogs Poison Arrow Frogs Dart Frogs & Poison Arrow Dart Frogs Terrarium Animals from Saurian Enterprises, Inc. ( 6th paragraph )
2. Poison Dart Frog Care Sheet ( at the very bottom paragraph 'Poison Dart Frog Water' )


> Poison dart frogs don’t need or enjoy ventilation, especially when the air that is “ventilating” their tank is dry household air. Not to worry, the dart frogs won’t suffocate, the plants will provide oxygen, and regularly opening the top for feeding will also exchange the air



P.S. i cant cool the whole living room as its not insulated and cant be as its big, connected to the kitchen, and hall ways.




the ac is on a controller that will detect the temp in the tank. If it raise above the set temp the ac will turn on till its back to the set temp then it will turn off.






Charlie Q said:


> if you are pumping cold air in, you will want ventilation or else you will get pressure buildup.


the tank is not air tight so pressure buildup shouldn't be an issue as i'm sure between the front glass has some small holes and what not


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

While I respect that you went to a credible source for your information, both of those are basically the same source. They're both from Patrick Nabors, and with all due respect to him, they are horribly outdated. This isn't the first time someone has cited info from Saurian and it has been outdated. 

You should search this site for "evaporative cooling" and read up on it. Get your viv ventilation done ASAP.

My further issue with the AC pumping air directly into the viv is this: what happens if the AC breaks and blows hot air directly into the tank? How long will it be before you realize your tank has turned into an oven? In my opinion it's much safer to cool the room.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

Dev30ils said:


> While I respect that you went to a credible source for your information, both of those are basically the same source. They're both from Patrick Nabors, and with all due respect to him, they are horribly outdated. This isn't the first time someone has cited info from Saurian and it has been outdated.
> 
> You should search this site for "evaporative cooling" and read up on it. Get your viv ventilation done ASAP.
> 
> My further issue with the AC pumping air directly into the viv is this: what happens if the AC breaks and blows hot air directly into the tank? How long will it be before you realize your tank has turned into an oven? In my opinion it's much safer to cool the room.


what you are saying is true... when will it break down? well i guess we'll never know cause even a new unit can have its issues on its day... but for the vents you are talking about, i have vents already just had it sealed with Styrofoam as the source says its not need but i'll remove 1 of the 4 blocked vents from the top and that should be good enough right?


here are some pictures of the tank so u can get a better idea on how i did it...
the vent that will be removed is the top right vent...


































also the tank is insulated with 3/4" styrofoam on the sides, top ( with a cut hole in the back for lighting ), bottom of the tank is sitting on a 1/8" of styrofoam, and the back is not insulated as i believe that using great stuff foam as the background will give it the insulation it needs already but correct me if i am wrong lol


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

and for the ac part and how its connected.... here are some pictures of the ac being setup





























the air thats coming out of the ac can only go 1 way and thats through the 1-1/4" pvc pipe as its sealed around with silicone and 1-1/2" block of styrofoam as you can see in the picture...

the way i cut the hole on the ac foam is the spot where it push out the most/strongest air...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

The no ventilation info is outdated thinking, at least in the opinion of many here, but people kept frogs like that for decades with reasonable success so can't say that it doesn't work... Just isn't optimal in many people's opinion, (including mine)... But You're doing your research and seem to be "getting it"... that's good. 

Its good you got the ac on a controller, kudos! The potential for mechanical failure exists for anyone who has to take extra measures to heat/cool a viv, so I got no problem with that. Just hope for the best and ideally have a back up plan in case of emergency, and/or don't leave for a week with no one to keep an eye on things (andake sure they know what to do).

I agree the GS background should serve as decent insulation for the back. If you need it you can add it to the outside too. Condensation on the glass is a good sign the viv isn't to dry. Darts aren't fish, and contrary to some popular belief won't shrivel up and die when humidity drops below 90%, or %80, or even %70. As long as there is moist substrate and plants and regular misting...frog jerky is unlikely.

So how's it working? Very curious and looking forward to know since I plan on doing something similar for some salamanders someday. What's room temp vs viv temp? ...and how is the humidity when the system is on? ...how fast does humidity and temp decrease when system is off?


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

Dendro Dave said:


> The no ventilation info is outdated thinking, at least in the opinion of many here, but people kept frogs like that for decades with reasonable success so can't say that it doesn't work... Just isn't optimal in many people's opinion, (including mine)... But You're doing your research and seem to be "getting it"... that's good.
> 
> Its good you got the ac on a controller, kudos! The potential for mechanical failure exists for anyone who has to take extra measures to heat/cool a viv, so I got no problem with that. Just hope for the best and ideally have a back up plan in case of emergency, and/or don't leave for a week with no one to keep an eye on things (andake sure they know what to do).
> 
> ...



room temp is in the 84-90F here in san diego at times where i live and a few days a week it went in the high 90'sF. i live up stairs in an apartment which we all know heat raise

lets say vivarium and room temp is in the high 85's... the ac turns on for about give or take 1-4 mins to drop the temp down to a good 73F as the cold air is injected into the vivarium... the humidity also drops down from 99% to a good low 80's to mid 75% but when the ac turns off my humidity jumps back up to the high 90's- 99%

i been running this for about 24hr now and i have to say that it does cool the tank down fast and with the insulation around the tank it keep the temp in the tank around 73-80F for a good 20-40mins? but this is on day that the temps are in the 80-83F, so you can assume that if its hotter the ac might turn on more often.



what i have plan on doing for the controller is to set up a temp probe that will be placed in the pvc pipe to check on temp. if lets say the ac is for some reason blowing hot air thats more then 85F or 90F even for a sec if the temp probe reads that it will automatically shut off the power to the ac and give a warning message on the display screen that the ac is not working right...

i also have plan on coding a log also that will not only log the vivarium tank temp but how often the ac and cooling time takes for the cooling period...

this might be over board for a small display tank but the controller can be coded or modify to work with any size tank if i tend to build a bigger tank...


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## kgj (May 2, 2014)

Have you considered the effect of repeated gusts of 55F air on tropical flora and fauna?

The advice in post #9 is still the most sound.


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

The natural environment of our frogs is relatively stable temperature wise and I think the changes of temperature your system has could be very stressful to the frogs. The high and low are both within an acceptable range but the rapid change has me a bit worried. Cooling the room as much as you reasonably can (I know the difficulties of no insulation and large areas) and relying on evaporative cooling will probably be your best option. 

John


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

I can set the temp to be about 1-2 degree difference that way it's never off to far from the main temp right now I have it set at 24 degree Celsius if temp raise more then 27 degree Celsius the ac will kick on and cool it back down to 24 degree Celsius does this look ok or is it still to fast of a temp change? 


I assume in the wild where these dart frogs are at has gusting wind blowing at them to help keep them cool right?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> I assume in the wild where these dart frogs are at has gusting wind blowing at them to help keep them cool right?


If your going to be rude enough to not educate yourself on the topic before getting snide about how people aren't worshiping your idea then your going to run out of people who are going to be willing to help you really quickly here... 

If your being pissy because people aren't worshiping what you think is a great idea its because its not a new idea or a great idea. You want to overcomplicate something in a way that can result in disaster. If your going to insist on the old way of housing dendrobatids by sealing them into closed box, then you have to keep the ambient temperature low enough that the tank doesn't reach the 80s mark. If you cool the room and set up the conditions for the frogs to use evaporative cooling and behavioral temperature management, then the enclosure can get into the low to mid-80s for a wide variety of frogs.

The part I have issues with here besides your attitude is that your not leaving much of a buffer zone for the frogs if something goes on... If you go back in the older literature when people generally set up sealed enclosures you would see that the temperature recommendation for the frogs is below 75 F as people started to lose frogs above those temperatures. Your goal is already above what is considered safe for a sealed enclosure. 

Were you aware that significant temperature drops in short periods of time are major stress/health issue for many animals including amphibians? In some cases the rate of temperature change can be more a problem than the total change in the temperature... So changing the temperature 5-10 degrees in a few seconds is generally worse than changing that temperature range over several hours.... 

With that said unless something changes don't expect much help further on from this quarter. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

He opened up a vent as we suggested, and he is open to modifying the design to decrease the rapid temp changes, and he is installing extra monitoring equipment to make it all more frog safe. He has also addressed the problems with cooling the entire room.

Usually I'm in agreement with Ed and I share the concerns over rapid environmental changes, and some more research on their natural habitat is probably warranted, but I'm not seeing the same perceived attitude. He seems very willing to accept criticism and adapt the design.

So I'm in favor of changes that increase the stability of the environment. Sounds like what he proposed is a step in the right direction. I think having the system come on more often to prevent drastic change is a step in the right direction. I live in a mobile home so I can relate to some of the issues he is facing. My living room/kitchen is basically one big room and then there is a hall similar to his place. If the sun hits my mobile domicile in winter, the heat doesn't even have to come on during daylight hours often times. It gets hot fast during the day, and cold fast at night.
----------------------------------

Possible solution...

What about diverting some of the air to to blow on the outside of the viv creating a bit of a cooler micro climate around the viv, and/or a sponge or something jammed into the output to restrict and "diffuse" the incoming cold air so the cooling process is more gradual, and changes less violent? 

Sounds like the problem is that it is basically working to well at the moment. So Im sticking with my earlier suggestion of not diverting as much of the cold air straight into the viv. Which basically instead of redoing the whole thing, I think restricting airflow with a sponge and/or diverting some air to blow in the area around the room will accomplish that. Also you may ultimately find it beneficial to remove most of the insulation so that the overall cooling effect is less and more gradual... But the insulation helps maintain a stable environment in heat or cold so I'd save that as a last resort and just tone down the direct cold air into the viv first.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

@ed : I'm not giving an attitude, I'm trying to learn from what others are doing and their advice... I'm not an expert but I'm learning what works for other and trying to fit that into my vivarium.

The idea of putting a filter to block most of the cold air going into the vivarium might not be a bad idea... I'll give that a try and see how my frogs react to this chance... Also the ac has 2 setting one high and one low ... I had set it to low to help slow the air/cooled air being injected into the tank as a slower rate over time...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> He opened up a vent as we suggested, and he is open to modifying the design to decrease the rapid temp changes, and he is installing extra monitoring equipment to make it all more frog safe. He has also addressed the problems with cooling the entire room.
> 
> Usually I'm in agreement with Ed and I share the concerns over rapid environmental changes, and some more research on their natural habitat is probably warranted, but I'm not seeing the same perceived attitude. He seems very willing to accept criticism and adapt the design.


Dave,

If the person had done the research on evaporative cooling then there would have been no need for the comment I highlighted and it probably wouldn't have been made in the first place. If you read through the thread he did open a vent but then took further actions that pretty much eliminated the ability of evaporative cooling to function in the tank. Things that should have been apparent if there was research done on the topic. Its not like evaporative cooling hasn't been well discussed on the forum before and its not like if he didn't understand it well, myself among others wouldn't have taken the time to explain it fully and how to get it to work. That comment on the other hand did push the irritation button given that it was suggested more than once to look up the evaporative cooling discussions. 

The problem is that the person isn't thinking through the potential consequences of his actions before he is enacting them. For example its not like the issues of temperature changes haven't been discussed before on the forum in several different contexts. See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/82159-temperature-longevity.html#post727239 



Dendro Dave said:


> Sounds like what he proposed is a step in the right direction. I think having the system come on more often to prevent drastic change is a step in the right direction.


Except there are potentially other things that can do the same thing better. Attempting to correct temperature issues after the tank has been set up is not a good way to resolve the problem as your having to do hacks on the system. 



Dendro Dave said:


> I live in a mobile home so I can relate to some of the issues he is facing. My living room/kitchen is basically one big room and then there is a hall similar to his place. If the sun hits my mobile domicile in winter, the heat doesn't even have to come on during daylight hours often times. It gets hot fast during the day, and cold fast at night.


My frogs are in a South Facing Room with large windows that have light curtains...and it can get hot in the room and potentially the enclosures. I've temperature gunned my truncatus feeding at a little over 90 F during a massive heat wave a few years back (yet they still act/acted normal and even reproduce (still)). Properly setup and proper choice of frogs can really help the animals deal with the temperatures but conditions have to be determined before the enclosure is planted and setup and not after the fact. Attempting after the fact is a problem. For example a chiller unit setup to cool the water under the substrate would be a far more effective agent than the current set up combining extremely frequent fogging and cold air. The frequent fogging is also going to saturate the substrate which is a potential issue as soggy substrates are linked to issues with the frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I didnt take the highlighted comment the same way. I suppose I can see how someone could have taken it that way, but it seemed benign enough to me and a fair enough observation/question given the context. 

Ive reread the thread a few times and after he opened the vent, I'm not seeing a change that prevents evaporative cooling. Maybe I missed it, or don't understand some aspect of evaporative cooling, which I'd like to correct that if that's the case... can you elaborate?

I agree more research could/should have probably been done, but I personally missed the temp longevity thread myself, and evaporative cooling IMO is something that many might not even think to search for unless prompted to, same for temp longevity or something like "rapid environmental changes". This guy seems at least willing to go read the suff we point him towards. Its a large forum and not everyone is a wiz with search terms. I often find stuff that others search for and can't seem to find.

Its hard for me to imagine the average lay person thinking to search for those, and I can forgive someone for not reading every sticky or every thread suggested by every sticky, though it is a good idea to do so. Many of us get a little ahead of ourselves, especially starting out. I can forgive that if the person is willing to listen, and this guy has stayed pretty cool and attempted to address our concerns even after further less then friendly toned criticism. Even if that one remark could be taken as snide, he's IMO demonstrated far better composure then many new people have when we tried to help them.

I see he mentions having frogs, so i agree that getting this all sorted out before frogs would have been the the better way to go, and warrants some criticism, but he seems more then willing to listen and improve so worth helping in my book. 

A compressor based chiller or thermal electric is another way to go, but either of suffient size to cool that viv in his conditions would likely be a minimum of $200-$300 dollar investment probably unless he finds a good deal on a used one. Im guessing he had the pricey stuff (like AC) already on hand and is working with what he's got and can afford. 

Diy TE or compressor based chiller is an option but most attempts ive seen are of comparable complexity and often fail or have more limited cooling ability from the many examples Ive seen over the years. Cost can also be an issue with those.

Ed I agree with most of your points, especially in the last section of your reply. I put put frogs in different vivs and/or in different rooms based on their likely ability to cope better then other frogs there. I've also had the experience of my place hitting 90 and all the frogs were out and super active foraging for food or calling.

The frequent fogging I agree could turn into an issue. Hopefully toning down the force of the cold air blowing in, making it more of a constant cool trickle rather then the occasional arctic blast will allow him to ease up on the fogging.

Another possibility is running a centimeter-1/2 inch or so diameter tube (like aquarim gravel vac clear tubing, or a section of garden hose), into a sponge brick partially imbedded in the drainage layer, effectively forcing the cold air through the wet sponge as it enters the viv. I think that would ease the force of the air entering the viv while maximising the humidity it holds??? Or direct the fog through the cold air line so that both air and fog slam into a sponge jammed up there like I suggested. Either method should kinda work like a swamp cooler and cut the violence with which cold air enters the viv, and also maximise the humidity of that air???

I think the OP will likely find they will be better served with a constant trickle of cool air then the occasional arctic blast. 

And lastly Ed, even if we continue to disagree on a few points, your knowledge, experience and insight are invaluable... and always appreciated!


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Just because something has been discussed before on the forum doesn't mean it is even remotely in a good format or that easy to search for. Forums often require you to read through a lot of riff raff to get to the information you actually want, and often that information and the full understanding of it is spread across multiple threads and links. Sometimes try as you might you can't even find what you really want simply because you just aren't searching the right terms or in the right order or the search engine such as google which we use has changed the order because its results are based on how popular Justin Bieber is not on actual content. Which is why if anyone feels that a subject needs more exposure you should make a care sheet or concise post on the entirety of the subject and post it up for an admin to sticky. After that when someone asks about it again you can simply direct them to a link.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendro Dave said:


> Ive reread the thread a few times and after he opened the vent, I'm not seeing a change that prevents evaporative cooling. Maybe I missed it, or don't understand some aspect of evaporative cooling, which I'd like to correct that if that's the case... can you elaborate?


Its awful hard to have successful evaporative cooling when the attempt is to keep the humidity approaching 99% as he noted just a few posts up from here... 
Evaporative cooling was suggested to him as a search discussion pretty early (more than once). If he had read the discussions on evaporative cooling he would have seen that maximizing humidity as close to 100% as possible is a problem as well as not necessary for a successful enclosure. Both of those points have been made clear in multiple threads. In fact at least one major source indicates that the frogs are active at humidities as low as 60% (Lotters et al) and that is referenced in at least one evaporative cooling thread. For example this came up under the evaporative cooling search... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/185937-can-you-have-2-species-together.html 
This is before we consider the risks of CO2 induced suffocation due to poor or insufficient air flow. 



Dendro Dave said:


> Its hard for me to imagine the average lay person thinking to search for those,


Except one was directly suggested twice before the hack mods were put into place early in the thread.... That in combination with the comment are what provided the post. 



Dendro Dave said:


> The frequent fogging I agree could turn into an issue.


No maybe about it. 



Dendro Dave said:


> Another possibility is running a centimeter-1/2 inch or so diameter tube (like aquarim gravel vac clear tubing, or a section of garden hose), into a sponge brick partially imbedded in the drainage layer, effectively forcing the cold air through the wet sponge as it enters the viv. I think that would ease the force of the air entering the viv while maximising the humidity it holds??? Or direct the fog through the cold air line so that both air and fog slam into a sponge jammed up there like I suggested. Either method should kinda work like a swamp cooler and cut the violence with which cold air enters the viv, and also maximise the humidity of that air???


The problem with reducing the ability of the AC unit to push air (which is already reduced by each bend in the piping) which is going to run up the electric bill far more than necessary as well as shorten the life of the AC unit. I suspect that even over the short-term, the cost in electricity during the warm months is going to more than a proper cooling system for the tank (having the bottom of the tank drilled and plumbed would allow even a relatively small drop in chiller to recirculate cool water under a false bottom much more effectively than this hack. It would even mimic how the temperatures of some of the springs work in the natal environment of the frogs... 

Dave if you run across a used copy I suggest grabbing one (if you don't already have one (mine is packed right now)) of these The Marine Aquarium Reference: Systems and Invertebrates: Martin A. Moe Jr.: 9780939960057: Amazon.com: Books as it will provide you with endless hours of adaptations to use... 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

I see he mentions the humidity quickly recovering up to 99%, but I don't see him saying he is continuing to target that number... Like you i hope he doesn't, hence my comments about frogs not being fish.

I took opening up a vent and the continued tweaks based on suggestions as evidence that was listening to us and likely doing the suggested reading. I don't think he said one way or the other if he had or not. So OP do the reading if you haven't!  

I don't know enough about the internal mecahnics of AC units to comment on how much wear or extra cost will be incurred using one this way. I do think my way of only diverting a portion of the flow and letting the rest blow into the area near the viv, especially since he's getting to much cooling would work and likely minimize extra cost/wear and still work. 

I run 3 5000 btu ACs, and seal off a spare bedroom. My bill is about the same as when my regular AC was working. Running one even all year around, especially if he finds he can get away with running it on low/econ mode, I wouldn't think would be much more costly then other methods. I could be wrong though. Possible increased wear is a more unknown variable. He's the Guinea pig for my theoretical system so admittedly their is some self interest here, but I honestly think this can work with the right tweaks.

My gut says this can work. I dont know the math, or physics formulas but my gut + creative tweaking tends to achieve my desired goals. The things i build in my head usually work... I think he can do this.

I think that he got such rapid cooling from the start, suggests there is a lot that can be done to this system to get it working and probably reduce the issues of wear and costs. I am in agreement though this should have been sorted out before frogs went in. Hopefully our help will get him frog safe ASAP. As long as he's willing to listen and learn from his mistakes, count me in to help.

Oh and Ed, I put that book on my amazon wish list


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Okay Dave, I'll let you talk me off the ledge. 

When considering plumbing problems keep in mind that for those type of functions air acts as a compressible fluid. As the pressure builds it decrease the ability of a motor to push the air in that direction which in turn increases wear as the machine is now functioning in a manner that it was not made to handle. Instead of a sponge I would suggest using a split pvc join as that would allow for the excess to be pushed off without increasing the pressure beyond what is required to get it to flow through the pipe. Adding a set of gate valves would probably work better for controlling the amount of air allowed into the tank (or if money is available a solenoid system but I can't help with them as I've only seen them used in an institutional setting and managed/maintained by engineering staff). The problem is that depending on the time of day and the outside weather, the system could literally be running constantly in an attempt to manage the temperature in the tank. That in turn is going to effectively cause the humidifier to run constantly... That much water input isn't good for anything in the tank particularly if it hasn't been plumbed to prevent water buildup and drain quickly (and the substrate is still likely to be waterlogged). 

I apologize to the OP. 

To the OP if your goal is to keep the humidity as close to 90+% then I think you need to seriously reconsider the setup. Only having one vent open doesn't tell us anything about the potential air flow ability of the enclosure. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

You are RAD Ed 

...and I didn't read anything there I can really argue aagainst. OP: Ed's suggestion of splitting the air might be better. Not sure which tweak is better, and im out of ideas for now . 

OP has a few things he can try now, interested to see the results.... and then see what if anything we can improve upon. My hope is that a balance can be struck between cold airnin and any need to run the humidifier/fogger. I think the OP said humidity only dropped to a low of 70 with the arctic blast, so it seems doable. Best wishes and good luck!

My P. Rubber setup is still just a twinkle in my eye, so I'm living vicariously through the OP for now


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## Hashbaz (May 14, 2011)

BryanMC1988, I don't think you have been rude or snide in any of your comments. Nor would I call your setup "hack mods". But I do agree with some of the comments/suggestions.

Yes there are gusts of wind in nature, but in nature the wind will be very close in temperature and humidity. Your current setup sounds like blasting the rain forest with a short gust of artic wind (I like to exaggerate  ).

Too much restriction on the air flow coming out of the AC is bad for a few reasons. The back pressure on the blower will probably reduce the life of the blower motor. And restricting the air flow will decrease the efficiency of the AC (wastes $) and might cause the evaporator coils to freeze over.

A slow constant trickle of cold air would be better than an occasional blast. I liked the suggestion of a valve to limit/adjust flow into the viv. Your viv is a lot smaller than the room and somewhat insulated. Your AC is designed to cool off an entire room. You might want to leave some of the output free to go into the room (only block off part of the flow).

Is there a way to spread out the cold air coming into the vivarium? I don't remember if you have a raised bottom or not, but I think it would work rather well to put the cold air under the raised bottom. (If this is wrong, someone please correct me).

I'm not sure how well this would work but if you simply blow the AC onto the viv, it might be enough to keep it cool enough. It would also help cool the room more this way. Yes, the room is not insulated or closed off, but you could probably lower the temperature of one corner.

I think simply putting the viv in front of the AC output is simple enough that it's worth a try. You are very correct that the foam background will act as an insulator, but if you blow cold air on the back of the viv, you will still cool off the viv. The insulation might even be helpful in keeping the AC from cooling off the viv too much, too quickly.

I don't want to go too far off topic, but what are you using for a controller/datalogger? I don't know much about them, but would like to learn.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

You know that suggestion of putting the vivs in front of the Ac might just work. Between the cold air blowing against the back glass and the cooler micro climate created in the area of the vivs it might work. 

If not then I like the idea of only diverting some of the flow into the vivs and letting the rest into the room.

I bet a half inch diameter hose hooked to a funnel over a portion of the ac vent would be enough cold air into the vivs, especially with the rest of the ac air free to cool the room. Should also minimize wear from backflow pressure.

You could use this stuff where it blows into the viv to slow it down a bit and "diffuse" the air like I was saying earlier. Come in handy as a substrate barrier and all kinds of other uses too...
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...c-filter-foam-fans-vents-ff-lids-etc-etc.html


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

ok so after closely looking over all the comments i have split the 2 outlets from the ac to 2 different area which reduce the air flow into the vivarium but half.

also when you say not to black the air build up... well i never blocked it...? it was always blowing into the vivarium then if it was building up pressure then it would escape from the vent which was big enough to deplete the build up fast.



what i am using as a controller and a data logger is a custom format code for an arduino project board with a 3.2 tft touch screen which will allow me to not only monitor 1 temp but the whole tank temp as in left side, middle, and right side...

this also lets me control when the ac should be turned on and when it should be turned off... if your not a tec kind guy, looking at the code would mean nothing. lol because its a touch screen, i can do all the setting and data logging reviews right off the screen without having to remove the unit... best of all its low power consumption and small to place anywhere


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

So the other half is going into the room right? How's it workin for you? Is it actually managing to cool the room some at lwast in the area near the viv? 

Nice to have another arduino guy in the hobby. Wish I knew how to do that stuff.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

Dendro Dave said:


> So the other half is going into the room right? How's it workin for you? Is it actually managing to cool the room some at lwast in the area near the viv?
> 
> Nice to have another arduino guy in the hobby. Wish I knew how to do that stuff.


its not blowing into a room i had to insulate a book case for the feeder as the temp in the room got in the high 90's and wipe more then half of my feeder's out... so i insulated the book case all around and split the ac to cool the inside of the book case for the feeder, i have to say tho my insulation for the book case was to good lol it keeps the cold are in even with vent holes the temp drops down to the 16-19 degree C (60F-66F) in a 91 degree room which is a good insulation job but i believe thats really low for feeder's so i removed the middle door and left a SMALL vertical opening and hope this can at less raise the temp up a bit trying to aim for around the 75-78F is the ideal temp for my feeder

with the split pvc the vivarium seems to be cooling a bit slower but its a good thing and hard gust wind in the vivarium from the ac air now... so far so good





i went to a pet store called "pet kingdom" in san diego ca today and it seems as if they had their dart frogs in temp of 85F and 81% HR isnt this a bit high for tincs but they seem to be fine in their tanks... all they have is a small water dish in the tank with the frogs and the normal thing like substrate, small amount of plants and a log. the frogs weren't hiding or any thing... they where out looking around hopping here and there...


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

The temps are certainly on the higher portion of the acceptable range, but it should not be an issue as long as evaporative cooling is in effect. Ed has stated in the past that, during a heat wave, his truncatus were actively hunting and breeding at 90 degrees (with evaporative cooling in effect). I believe the same would be true for tinctorius. these frogs are much more adaptable than we give them credit for. 

John


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

ok so with that being said do i really need a ac unit blowing in the vivarium then? i mean temp here has spike in the 90-mid 90's due to a heat wave we are getting do you think an ac is even needed if they can handle that kinda temp?


i do have a pool of water in the tank and humidity is always high so would evaporation cooling be enough for these bakuis frogs?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Lol nice insulation job and use of the split air. I didn't even think about keeping feeders cool. 

Froggy pretty much said it so ill just agree, that the pet store frogs situation sounds less then ideal. If the substrate is moist and they aren't trying to feed them big ass crickets like many stores do out of my ignorance then they should be ok for awhile if they are in good health. But prolonged environmental stress tends to eventually cause or at least worsen health issues. Some stores listen to people so.u might mention that's a bit on the warm side if u go back... but don't be surprised if they do nothing.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Jun 22, 2014)

i already told them that dart frogs should be keep around 74-80 max and they told me they had no issues with them in that temp. so i think to my self... what a dick... i'm sure he can care less as he is just an employee and trying to sit around making money then do cleaning or caring for the animals..


there is just so much one can advice them, do they listen...? most wont but you have that 10% that will...


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