# Euro vivs-what makes them so different?



## wishIwereAnExpert (Jul 18, 2005)

I've been thinking a lot lately about why there are so many top-notch vivariums in Europe--especially in the Netherlands. On georgecramer.com, and on poison-frogs.nl, the vivs just blow me away. They obviously have very different styles--I have never seen a dutch vivarium with a false bottom, but what conditions does everyone think make them (in general) so much more impressive?

One option I consider is their ventilation systems: poison-frogs.nl suggests 1-2 times tank volume PER MINUTE, which I think is much more than anybody in america is using. This might help tillie's and orchids to dry out between waterings, but what happens to the humidity?

Your thoughts??

-Solly


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Most of the really impressive Euro vivs are either a partial Paludarium, or include some kind of water feature, so humidity may not need to be as high. I think another thing that really enhances the look of their tanks is the choice/positioning of plants. It's necessary to take an artistic approach in order to get that level of aesthetic appeal. I'm sure the availability of Sika and Flevopol doesn't hurt either, but I've seen some recent posts that make me think that we aren't too far behind in finding an American made substitute.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

I also think that these massive european vivs that we drool over is a differnt aproach to the hobby. Its ONE LARGE tanked usualy mixed with several different kind of species. Where alot of the serious hobbyists here build many samll species tanks. I know there must be many froggers in europe that also keeps lots of small species tanks. I just think that the people keep the huge displays put all there eggs in one basket and make that there focus of the hobby.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

It may also have something to do with the fact that many of us in the U.S. use standard fish aquariums as a basis for our frog vivariums, while hobbyists in the Netherlands and other parts of Europe seem to build theirs with a more inventive initial approach.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

They are more patient and dedicated to their hobbys alot of americans simply get tired of it and move along.Alot of them truly are in this for the fun and pleasure not just trying to cash in they have passion we have dollar signs.

I know there are people here with the same values but I have met very few.
cya


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

what is Sika and Flevopol?

Trow, I could not disagree with you more (respectfully). I realize that some people are in it for the money but I think that it is really, really harsh to say that a lot of us only see dollar signs. The members of this board by and large are testament to the fact that we love or hobby just as much. on top of that many people that I know who breed frogs do so just to supplament their hobby and buy more frogs that they would otherwise be unable to afford.

Also BTW, Germans spend tons of money on their hobbies. My dad races homing pigeons and it is not uncommon to here about a wealthy german paying 20k or more for a champion pigeon. Same thing to a somewhat lesser degree with reef keeping


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Yeah it may seem harsh but I have been proven right so many times it makes me sick.
cya


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Getting back to the topic- I would like to say that Europeans have a different approach to landscaping their terraria. They tend to use "brick" technique, which means they use gravel for a base and then place soaked peat bricks to build their land areas. As it was aforementioned, having flevopool and cocos panels (cheap ones that aren't shipped and then prices doubled) at your disposal helps. To get a good idea of stylistic differences check out the Terrarium Gallery on Wildsky.net.

Best,

J


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2006)

i think time is the biggest factor. they have been doing this longer than most people in the USA. in time, quality increases. people learn more; can afford more; become more creative; supplies, plants, etc. are more readily available to serve the needs of the hobbyists. 

finding what i need/want is mostly impossible in my area. people are too hung up on cats and dogs here. i hate them both. there are a few pet shops i visit, but only rarely, because the proprietors aren't hobbyists, but entrepeneurs that know less than i do. it is quite depressing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

another thought: people in the USA are short sighted, unimaginative, unmotivated, etc. i blame technology, in part. a bit more thought, effort, and research would result in a better balance of flora and fauna and a more natural landscape. i think we tend to forget the most important thing of all: you should be creating art. most people have no artistic vision. 

the following links help express what i mean. freshwater aquarium enthusiasts do it best from what i've seen. i've found very few paludariums/vivariums that Really impress me.

http://www.aquadesign.pl/
http://members.tripod.com/~Tropic_Cove/aquariums/penjing.html
http://www.aquabotanic.com/

check out the Aquabotanic Aquascaping Contests (or others) to get an idea of the kinds of things one should consider when designing a tank to impress the judges.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Like I said they are just better.It is ok to admit it.
cya


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Ive noticed it recently that vivs are getting nicer and nicer in the US. Look at the members section, and look at different vivs. They have different supplies then us, and we are still in the experimental stage. Look at what brent brock did by creating the trees he did. The viv with that tree looks amazing, along wtih other recent viv posts. I think we are just a little bit behing and will catch up. I also think its narrowminded and childish to say that americans are unimaginative and uncreative. We have to get the basics of the different materials to use first, along with the care of the animals. Also, blaming technology is annoying, they have just as much, and in many cases, more technology then over here.

Ryan


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Ryan said:


> I also think its narrowminded and childish to say that americans are unimaginative and uncreative. We have to get the basics of the different materials to use first, along with the care of the animals. Also, blaming technology is annoying, they have just as much, and in many cases, more technology then over here.
> 
> Ryan


Agreed, but you forgot insulting.

I am a 3D animator just six months off from my degree and I am surrounded by talent, imagination and creativity on a daily basis, and our lives are consumed by technology of every concievable type. I am sick of hearing people gripe about America as if those other counrtries have no problems of their own. 

I for one have noticed that a great deal of the people on this board are highschool to college age which means that a lot of us are on an extremely fixed income which is probably why many of us have very simple, inexpensive setups. I for one had to wait for a whole year until this Cristmas before I was able to get more DFs because I just couldn't afford it otherwise; and as far as I am concerned for the money that I spent, my viv looks pretty darn good.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

When you realize technology isnt the answer then you will be a master.
cya


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

I would appreciate it if this thread would stay on topic and turn into a debate on whether technology is good or not. Please save the humanism debates for the lounge or elsewhere.

Cheers,

J


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## rattler_mt (Apr 15, 2005)

there is no real reason why Americans cant build the same tanks. the two main things holding most of us back is space and funds. as some one pointed out most on this forum are somewhere between bout 16 and 26, not the best ages to have a ton of money laying around for major project. the only thing holding me back is space, not that i have alot of money laying around but i would divert funds from other hobbies to this one if i had the space. right now my frog tanks are in my kitchen/dining room and the wife is only allowing me so much space. my passion has always been plants, not critters. i would love to do a large tank just to grow orchids and ferns and such "naturally" who cares about frogs :wink:


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2006)

Most of this has already been said, but I figured I should recapitulate.
It seems that in Europe they are really experienced in building their own vivs, so that makes it easier to pack them with humidifiers, misters, fans, heaters, coolers, and the best of lights. I dont know if they do this becuase they know how, or is it that they know how becuase they had no other choice. Learn to custom make you own vivs or dont keep them kinda situation. 
Another thing, Europe has been doing this for many more years than the Americas. While this country was still struggling to get enough crops for the winter, the Europeans were building Wardian cases and green houses and things like that. Im sure that there were some elite people here in the US keeping these things too, but lets face it folks, they probably had it all done for them by the Europeans.
Last point, 
I am 25 now, and it wasnt till this past year 2005 that I was finally able to start building vivs. I just didnt have the money. I cant be expected to create a contest worthy viv with just one year and two vivs worth of practice. Its not fair to expect that. I believe that as the members of this forum get older and have more and more monetary success (thats me wishing all of you a Happy and Prosperous New Year), that our vivs will get better and better. GRADUALLY.

A couple of last things.
My vivs dont look fantastic cuase I'm afraid of the complicate great stuff and fomo, and am phobic of high technology like fans and misters and egg crates. Im sorry, that just me and my manias. Im a big coward when it comes to that stuff. Im afraid to mess things up and I dont have the money to test stuff out and learn by trial and error. I've never been good with my hands.

Also, I dont like egg crates at all. I'm sure they give great results and seem easier, but I never liked them.

Comments??


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Khamul1of9 said:



> It seems that in Europe they are really experienced in building their own vivs, so that makes it easier to pack them with humidifiers, misters, fans, heaters, coolers, and the best of lights.


On that note does anybody know of a thourough, step by step resource on how they make their beautiful tanks. This thread has really got me thinking aboiut the possibilities that my unused 55 gal tank could have. Not that I would be able to set it up any time soon. But its always nice to dream and plan things out for the future.



Khamul1of9 said:


> My vivs dont look fantastic cuase I'm afraid of the complicate great stuff and fomo


You should try to find someone in your area with a little more experience that can help you set one up.



Trow said:


> When you realize technology isnt the answer then you will be a master.


Agreed, asuming you are refering to keeping dart frogs. Same thing happened for years and is still happening to a lesser extent today in the reef hobby. For the longest time you would see people with these insanely expensive technologically overboard reef setups and they would'nt get any better results than those of us who went with natural filtration methods e.g. live rock, sand and coral.



rattler_mt said:


> the wife is only allowing me so much space.


You shoujls try to get her to let you have a small wall space then buid a 3-4 teared cabinet for vertical 10s or 20s. :wink: 

Appologies for not staying completely on topic.


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## jsagcincy (May 2, 2005)

Here you go Paul.

http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e03.html


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I think a lot of it may be a matter of simply effort and priorities. Many American frog keepers simply don't have a zoo quality display as their top priority, and so don't expend the time and effort necessary to set up and maintain (it takes a lot of work to keep a display tank looking tip top) these tanks. 

Superior display tanks also are not so much natural as idealized. A truly natural vivarium would probably include just a pile of leaf litter next to a simulated tree trunk (coco fiber wall or somesuch), and maybe one terrestrial and one epiphytic plant. Or with a plain streambed and rocks and a plant or two. Nature doesn't come with a Takashi Amano design.

Also, it seems silly to say Americans are dependent on technology and Europeans free from it's "constraints" when so much vivarium and aquarium technology originates in Europe, and is merely imported to here.


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## valledelcauca (Apr 13, 2004)

One said that the humidity is lower in european tanks, which is actually not true. The humidity is the same, up to 100%, but the ventilation is better and you`d have to mist more often. But that`s not the problem as there are misting systems ;-)
I think the tanks we use in Europe are better for the frogs because of the ventilation.
But there is also a big difference in the price, so I`d use those fishtanks (with some changes) too if I lived in the states.


Greetings from Germany
Andreas


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## Guest (Jan 2, 2006)

Ryan said:


> I also think its narrowminded and childish to say that americans are unimaginative and uncreative. We have to get the basics of the different materials to use first, along with the care of the animals. Also, blaming technology is annoying, they have just as much, and in many cases, more technology then over here.
> 
> Ryan


that all depends on how you look at it. it is a chicken vs. egg issue. i would call it 'stereotyping' rather than 'narrowminded'. in any case, i stand by my statement. americans just don't put forth as much effort. the idea tends to be better than the result. knowledge and responsibility aren't prerequisites to pet ownership. simplicity takes priority over well-being. 

btw, i am an american griping about americans. we don't all fit perfectly into the stereotypes. we all know that a good terrarium can be set up with very little money and it can function just as well as a high tech setup. the person who designs it makes the difference. this thread was started because europeans do it better. i'm not trying to insult anyone. i'm simply saying that americans need to try harder.



troy said:


> When you realize technology isnt the answer then you will be a master.


funny. that is neither an american nor a european concept.



Catfur said:


> Also, it seems silly to say Americans are dependent on technology and Europeans free from it's "constraints" when so much vivarium and aquarium technology originates in Europe, and is merely imported to here.
> 
> who said that? everything people have said about technology has surprised me. perhaps what i should have said is that most americans don't ever consider whether they should be using technology. they don't learn enough to know the difference.





Catfur said:


> I think a lot of it may be a matter of simply effort and priorities. Many American frog keepers simply don't have a zoo quality display as their top priority, and so don't expend the time and effort necessary to set up and maintain (it takes a lot of work to keep a display tank looking tip top) these tanks. well said.
> 
> Superior display tanks also are not so much natural as idealized. A truly natural vivarium would probably include just a pile of leaf litter next to a simulated tree trunk (coco fiber wall or somesuch), and maybe one terrestrial and one epiphytic plant. Or with a plain streambed and rocks and a plant or two. Nature doesn't come with a Takashi Amano design.
> 
> i absolutely agree. however, nature doesn't normally come in a tank or in a pot. bonsai, penjing, suiseki, etc. are methods of displaying natural objects in a way that accentuates their beauty. this is where americans usually fall short. technology keeps people from being creative; getting outdoors and experiencing the natural world; learning to appreciate it.


if my point of view still seems a bit twisted, then consider this: i am a landscaper. you wouldn't believe how many people think i mow lawns. :?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have to agree with catfur... Its just a matter of priorities. We could make a large tank if we wanted, whats to say they don't save for years to build some of those monsters. 

My issue with building a "HUGE" display tank is if I would ever move. How would you move it? They make a 150gal tall that I keep dreaming about and would love to make into a huge tank. Id guess though it would cost at least $1500 before frogs, and to do it right would be pushing $2000+. I personally like variety and plan to make a couple more smaller display tanks for my living room.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Hello all: 

I have to agree with Kyle on the whole moving dilemma. I had a 55 gallon setup at my old house that was still there 6 months later because I couldn't get anyone strong enough to help me pick it up...lol. 

Who ever said displays had to be large? I have often emailed people photos of my tanks and have received statements like "Wow! that must be a 40 gallon".... then I have to tell them it's a 10 gallon tank. I have a 15 gallon that I am very fond of and want to find a way to display it in my home. Here's the kicker though- It's not just me! Believe me, there are a lot of awesome viv's out their that haven't been posted on Dboard. 

-J


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Another thing I have to bring up with a lot of the European tanks - those tanks are more than a couple of frogs and technology. And while we have different supplies available to use on different sides of the pond, I don't think thats stopping us either (we just have to be a little different and can't follow a blueprint from one of their tanks step for step). Yes, these tanks are idealistic, but with enough of the right knowledge, we can keep our pretty tanks pretty and the inhabitants happy. One thing I've seen not mentioned at all in this thread - the plants.

I think the european tanks are much more thought out plant wise than most of our tanks. I keep seeing people's tanks where they can't ID the majority of the plants in there, much less how they grow, what their requirements are. This is why I'm working on the plant swap... know what you're putting in your tank, plant out your tank, use the knowledge, and you can have the same tanks. Planted right you won't have an overgrown jungle, you'll have a fine bit of idealistic rainforest that may need a trim here or there.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Great I might have some plant questions soon.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> I think the european tanks are much more thought out plant wise than most of our tanks. I keep seeing people's tanks where they can't ID the majority of the plants in there, much less how they grow, what their requirements are. This is why I'm working on the plant swap... know what you're putting in your tank, plant out your tank, use the knowledge, and you can have the same tanks. Planted right you won't have an overgrown jungle, you'll have a fine bit of idealistic rainforest that may need a trim here or there.


absolutely. this is what i was, in part, refering to. you can't toss just anything into a tank and expect it to look good. many professionals will replicate actual existing ecosystems by using only species living in that environment. very few people realize that sort of thing, but when somebody does, it makes the extra effort worthwhile. 

plants have diffferent light, water, nutrient requirements, and growth habits that are often overlooked. if you know enough about the plants, then you can better position them within your tank. arrangement and selection make all the difference. the same goes for the rocks and wood that you choose. everything should be seamless.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I don't agree with those saying that the European experience isn't a large determinant of the fact that European tanks are better than American tanks. Experience is hella important. I compare my first tank to my third, and there is an immense difference in it's astethic appeal, animal well-being, and upkeep. I have friends who keep dart frogs who haven't seen any of the amazing European tanks OR any of the just-as-amazing American tanks, and say wow to simple false bottom set ups. 

Corey said something along the lines of plants being key. There isn't a truer statement. Moss doesn't typically grow well with 18 hours of direct sunlight everyday (in my outdoors experience, which is extensive for my age). Yet, it's not atypical to see set-up's in the Member's Vivariums section with moss, where? Out in the open. Also, Black Jungle made a great statement, which speaks of details. Details count. The little lichens, dead mosses, minute cavities- all of these make the difference between good and great.

The Europeans have the dedication to make this happen. Typically, Americans live a fast paced lifestyle. I spend much of my free time here on the boards, leaving even less free time for other things. Many Americans are limited to just 3 or 4 hours to themselves a day. That is why we have fast food; that is why we have bagged, processed bread chocked full of preservatives; it's why we take vitamins. Americans don't go to the bakery anymore to pick up bread, Americans don't get their milk delivered to them on a regular basis. Much of this is still present in Europe. But it's not the fault of technology, it's the forward motion of American society compounded with the fact that we're willing to part with the little things. We lose detail. Europeans laugh at us for taking vitamins. They haven't lost the little things.

Overall, it's the attention to detail that the Europeans give their vivariums that many Americans leave absent. Maybe that attention is simply better planing. Maybe it is there only bebause of better access to supplies, either hard or monetary. It's the little things that seperate good from great. Just don't let these take away from the amazing American tanks, you just have to look a little harder to find them.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'm going to come from far left field with this, but I really don't see what makes European tanks so great. Aside from their size giving them their impressiveness, from what I've seen they're essentially a back wall filled with plants, a small amount of basically flat land, and a water area up front. IMO that's very very boring. No depth and nothing to keep the eye moving throughout the tank looking for new and different things and layers. I would much rather see a 20g with some depth and personality, then a 450g that's essentially just a back wall filled with plants.



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## Guest (Jan 4, 2006)

defaced said:


> I'm going to come from far left field with this, but I really don't see what makes European tanks so great. Aside from their size giving them their impressiveness, from what I've seen they're essentiall a back wall filled with plants, a small amount of basically flat land, and a water area up front. IMO that's very very boring. No depth and nothing to keep the eye moving throughout the tank looking for new and different things and layers. I would much rater see a 20g with some depth and personality, then a 450g that's essentially just a back wall filled with plants.


hmmm, good point.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

ya i sorta agree, but the initial shock of so many plants in a space and such color and interesting plants makes up for it mostly, dont you think?
If someone made a big 450 gallon tank with a back wall filled with plants and a water feature up front AND different layers and terrain, then that would be totally sweet.


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

I agree with size being a consideration in why European (Dutch, mainly) look so great. Most of the sites I've seen show the gi-normous, national contest finalist-type tanks...or set-ups of professional breeders with the beautiful uniformity. Money and equipment are definitely the differences here. But I think that we're (at least me, I guess) not seeing enough vivariums of the 'average-on-a-budget' hobbyist to get a true sense of the scale. 

Carlos


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> ya i sorta agree, but the initial shock of so many plants in a space and such color and interesting plants makes up for it mostly, dont you think?
> If someone made a big 450 gallon tank with a back wall filled with plants and a water feature up front AND different layers and terrain, then that would be totally sweet.


I totally agree, at first you're just in awe at the size and number of plants, but for me there's nothing to keep me looking at the tank, which for a tank with that much potential is such a shame IMO. 

I don't know the gallon equivelan off hand, but I'll soon start work on a 32" x 30" x 36" viv made from some salvaged 9 light wood framed windows. I'm expecting to be finished with the project in the summer or as funds allow, but that's exactly what I'm going for, size, water, and land structure. With some inginuity and imigination I don't see any reason why Americans can't make as good or better large scale vivs.



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## OneSmallFrog (Apr 27, 2005)

> I don't know the gallon equivelan off hand, but I'll soon start work on a 32" x 30" x 36" viv


A quick tip: google "32*30*36 cubic inches in gallons", and you get "32 * 30 * (36 (cubic inches)) = 149.610389 US gallons"

Bev


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Yea, I use Google for most of my unit conversions, I'm an engineering student. I just didn't think of it.



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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

I want to address the original question posed: "Why are European vivaria different?"

I think this is important, as I keep hearing everyone talk about which is "better." That is a completely different subject, and you have to first determine what your goal is before you can determine if something is better. Then, you have to add in subjectivity with a word like "better."

Next, I'm guessing that by "different," we are comparing the monstrous vivaria that are highlighted on websites versus the multiple terraria in rack systems that many Dendroboard members sport.

Well, I think the difference comes from a difference in goals and priorities. If you are going to make one large enclosure, it is probably going to be a focal point in the room. So, then you are going to consider the aesthetics and artistic aspects much more than if you had multiple setups where no one setup was the focal point. At some point, the focus becomes the vivaria itself more than the inhabitants. I am not saying that the inhabitants are neglected in these setups, but I am saying that the artistic statement of the vivarium becomes the main focus, with the inhabitants being just one consideration in that artistic statement.

On the other hand, you cannot keep very many different species of frogs if you only own one big vivarium—at least if you subscribe to the oft quoted "don't mix" mantra that is largely endorsed in the U.S. hobby. (Coincidentally, many of the large Euro viv's do mix species). Since many of us here enjoy keeping frogs-and more than one species--it becomes difficult to have a 6 foot by 6 foot by 4 foot enclosure for each species group you keep. And those 300 gallon froglet rearing tanks are a pain to seed with springtails.

Further, large enclosures often make it more difficult to produce a substantial number of offspring, unless you are raising pumilio or other egg feeders (and even then, a 50 gallon tank is not necessarily going to produce twice as many frogs as a 25 gallon tank). Look at the most well-known breeders. How big are their tanks? Not 500 gallons each, I assure you. Even if they are huge, they are built to be functional more than aesthetic. Consider the greenhouse wall Rich Frye built: It's a huge enclosure that was built to see if more space would equate to more production for an egg feeder. It's by no means an artistic masterpiece—you can barely see in the thing. But it was built for function rather than form. So, why is it different from the large Dutch vivaria? It is built for a different purpose. I think that most of us here want to have great success in breeding these animals, and that we want to breed more than one species. 

So, why are the European tanks different? Because they are being built for different purposes—to achieve different goals. Are they better? In some respects, yes. In other respects, no. It all depends upon what your goal is.


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## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

Well I personally use the European style tank for several reasons over and above the aesthetic:

Ventalion, which is far better than that in a standerd fish tank type set-up.

Cost, the cost of building my own tanks to the specification of what I require is lower than the cost of haveing to adapt a fish tank.

Size, I am limitted by of the shelf sizes of fish tanks, I can build what I need.

Access to interior of tank, the european style tank is front opening in oder to allow easy access, but also allows more tank to be stored in a given space as I do not have to leave addiotnal space above the tank to gain access nor do I have to move a tank of a shelving system to do so. But approaching the animals from the side and not the top (as a predator would do) I find that they are less stressed and I have better breeding results.

I do not know what the average cost of e.g. 10 gallon set is in the US, But I can build and equip one here in the UK for about £55. That works out to about $80.

Below is an example:


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Hey Darryl,
that is a really interesting design. What is the purpose of the raised glass layer at the bottom. If you know of a site that has step by step instructions on the construction of that style tank that would be great.


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## Homer (Feb 15, 2004)

Darryl said:


> Well I personally use the European style tank for several reasons over and above the aesthetic:
> 
> Ventalion, which is far better than that in a standerd fish tank type set-up.
> 
> ...


Darryl, 

I think most people were talking about the huge Dutch style Euro-vivs . . . or at least that was my impression. Here, we tend to use vertically oriented 10, 15, or 18 gallon tanks with front opening doors (that swing down). The ventillation is great, and you can set one up for about $40-$60 US (without lighting). Check out http://www.chocohut.org for a general design. Several of us around here also build our own . . . but they don't tend to be 6' cubes.


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## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

Let start by saying that not all my tanks have this raised glass section.

Those tanks that do have them, the pupose of the sloping raising section is to assist with drainage.

I am curently working on a step by step instruction with drawing and photo's for building this type of viv.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Darryl said:


> I am curently working on a step by step instruction with drawing and photo's for building this type of viv.


Cool, let us know when you have it finished.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I find the solid "false bottom" on that tank really interesting, especially compared to our "egg crate" false bottoms. Seems like it would hold less water due to the smaller lower area for it to collect, tho that is hardly a bad thing. Can you explain more why its designed that way, how you guys get water out of it? (I know a lot of us over here like to put drains in the tanks).


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## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

The tank pictured does not have a sump, but almost all the other tanks that are in a bank or rack have drain bulkhead in this small sump area, even those tanks that do not have this solid false bottom will have a drain bulkhead fitted.

Those few tanks that do not have a drain simply get the plain old "Turkey baster" treatment.


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2006)

Let me start off by saying all of my tanks have to be WOW! ....from my 175 gal custom show tank to my 5 1/2 gal thumbnail verts (and maybe thats why I'll go broke). I started out loving the frogs, but that soon became secondary to making the enclosures for them. If I was going to do this frog thing, then I was going to do it right. I had to learn about plants, humidity, temps, everything. For a long time I did not have access to the materials use to create such a vivarium, evcept from Home Depot and Lowes. Now I do thanks to supply shops like Black Jungle and many others. Take your time, get advice, share ideas. It's worth it. I've seen some great euro tanks and just as many in the US.

Lastly, the pics I seen and info I got from the euro site has helped me step up in the area of terrarium design. I began damn there totally dismanteling my aquariums to get a effective terrarium (open front, ventilation, drain holes) and not an aquarium made into a terrarium. Top access to your tanks is so 1995. TAKE YOU TIME and put in a little work, and you tanks will be just as good as the ones you see on the euro sites.

Check these sites out. They're not in english but worth taking the time to use Google to translate.
http://www.dendrogrove.com/autre/index. ... sformation
http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en
http://home.hetnet.nl/~josje94/main.htm
http://www.dendrogrove.com/index.php


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2006)

Interesting thread. I agree with much of what Homer said above, just have a couple things to add.

I think to some degree large planted vivaria have just not caught one here yet, but I suspect they will. Back in the late 80s and early 90s there were beautiful reef tanks in Germany and Holland, but in the US we were mostly keeping just marine fish in comparatively primitive aquariums. It cought on here eventually, and now reef aquaria in the US are second to none. I think this situation is very similar.

Regarding aquaria, I've notice the highlights of different groups are that Europeans have the innovation to work out the initial technology to make the system possible, Americans are particularly good at husbandry, and Japanese are very strong with aesthetics.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

But you've also got to realize that American collections tend to have as many frogs as possible lol. A lot of us probibly wouldn't be happy with a big gorgeous tank, as its that many less frogs we can have. Why have one or two really big tanks with basiaclly one kinda of frog in it (since we think mixing is a serious no-no) when the same spaces can hold a rack with 16 ten gallons on it, potentially 16 different kinds of frogs? Sometimes it gets like pokemon - gotta get them all.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2006)

I'd have to agree on several points. 

One, in general, americans lead a pretty fast-paced lifestyle...how many of you come home in the middle of the day to take a siesta? I speak from experience here, I've lived in europe several times for extended periods, and the overall pace of life there is just not as quick. They tend (generalizing here) to live in smaller houses or appartments, have fewer cars, and fewer hobbies overall. I suspect that the time and money spent on hobbies in europe is more focused. Also, they tend to work fewer hours. (NO, I'M NOT CALLING YOU LAZY. There are just more regulations and union membership) My average week is 60-70 hours, and I rarely get home much before 7 pm. I just didn't experience that over there.

In some respects, climate may have something to do with it, also. Ever spend winter in northern europe/scandinavia? I have. Several of them. Its long, dark, cold, and generally inhospitable. You don't really wanna be outside a whole lot.

As for vivarium size and quality. How many design contests have you entered....or even head of. They actually exist in europe. That certainly would be a factor in how I approached the hobby. Then again, I just want lots of diffferent frogs. I tore down my only semi sizable tank, and replaced it with four 10 gal verts. More frogs (at least in variety), and actually easier upkeep. Point being, I don't think there is any real technical advantage in europe, just different motivation for the style of viv being set up.

My .02, Ron


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## Roots (Mar 7, 2008)

I am currently in the process of building a viv from scratch based on vivaria projects designs. H=40",W=50",D=20".I have spent many months tracking down info and parts to accomplish this, If anyone is looking to do the same I may be of some help.


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## arielelf (May 23, 2007)

WELL! I don't know if any of you have been to Amsterdam or not, but they have an EXTREME abundance of, how shall I say it, Home growing equiptment shops on every other corner. By home growing, I don't mean they are growing daisies! Certain plants are legal to grow at home in Holland for many years now, so they have acess to very high end growning supplies that we have a very hard time finding. They have had high power, low heat growing lights, misting systems, hydroponics, and many other supplies at thier fingertips, at the corner store you might say. Where as we hunt high and low through Home supply stores and aquarium supply stores just to find mediocre equiptment for outragious prices. This gives them quite an edge on us.

I also agree that thier plant selection is very nice. I don't know if it is because they have a better selection or if they just have a different asthetic, but they do seem to understand how to create very natural environments. Sometimes I see tanks here that have too much going on, mine included. The Dutch tanks seem to have a restrained use of plant species. Some I have seen use plants of similar color palette but create interest by varying the textures and sizes of plants, where as we tend to use too many different colored plants with similar size and texture. They seem to use plants that create a sense of scale(plants with lots if little parts like lots of ferns) so that the environment looks like a larger space in the distance, kind of like a diarama. I really like this tecnique, it creates a tiny world rather than just a cut out of a section of a jungle. I don;t know if this makes sense or not.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Just a heads up, but it may be easier to start a new thread than digging up one that has been inactive for two years... especially since much of this has been addressed in this thread already.

I also recomend keeping in mind that a lot of the Euro tanks we see are finished projects, established, and done by people who know what they are doing (or helped by someone who does). On this forum we see the whole range from new and unknowing up to people who've been designing tanks for years. Believe me, there are just as many "Dutch" tanks that aren't that appealing as there are tanks over on this side of the pond, we just aren't looking at the right sites :lol: It takes a while to develop the knowledge for the plants and some people just have that artistic ability to place stuff where it works.

Often with the Euro tanks, it isn't just making it look like a larger space in the distance - it actually is a larger space! It's nearly impossible to pull it off in a 10g tank... but in a 4' wide, 2' deep, 4' tall tank, that's a whole other story...


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

*Re:*



Igofastr said:


> Also, they tend to work fewer hours. (NO, I'M NOT CALLING YOU LAZY. There are just more regulations and union membership) My average week is 60-70 hours, and I rarely get home much before 7 pm. I just didn't experience that over there.


Lucky you. :wink: I happen to know some people over here in Europe who regularly work from 6am to 10pm (on Saturdays too, and half a day on Sunday; it's horrible). It appears being a lawyer is hard (and unhealthy) work. :roll: Now, that's a bit of an extreme, but working from 7am to 8pm/9pm is not as uncommon as you might think. :| Well, I guess it depends on where exactly you live (in Europe, that is).

Now... on to what I really wanted to say:

While we do use somewhat bigger tanks than a lot of Americans do, mixing species (and morphs is even worse) is also a big no-no over here. Some people with these really HUGE tanks might put two different species in it, but it's generally rather frowned upon. 
The general consensus is that the frogs' needs come first, aesthetics way later.  
It's just that there are some set rules that new frog-owners had better adhere to, or else. :wink: Like, a 50*50*50 cm tank (=125 liters or about 33 gallons) is really seen as the absolute minimum for a breeding pair. If you're below that... well. 
So, we got more space to work with from the go.

Really though, I've seen some American tanks wich were pretty damn amazing, too. Frankly, I don't know why you guys are complaining. :wink:


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## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

Paul E. Wog said:


> Hey Darryl,
> that is a really interesting design. What is the purpose of the raised glass layer at the bottom. If you know of a site that has step by step instructions on the construction of that style tank that would be great.


As promised, step by step, set of instructions:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...tructing-euopean-type-vivarium-step-step.html


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## edward (Apr 20, 2008)

I grew up in Europe, but have lived most of my life in North America.
First of all, I think that the herp. hobby took off in Europe much earlier
than here in North America. For example, I bought my first vivarium 
in Europe back in 1971 and to this day was still better than any I can
find in the local pet shop here. Hobbyists in Europe started off with
naturalistic vivaria, even in a pet shop environment, whereas here 
up until a few years ago it has always been sterile set-ups (was in a 
shop yesterday where they had fake plants and wood etc.).
I bought my first poison dart frog in 1973 (o. granulifera) and know
people in Europe that have been breeding PDF's for 30 plus years.
Look at the herp. specific magazines. I have the first issue of 'herpetofauna'
dated July 1979 with a 4 page article on d. siverstonei by Rainer Schulte.
How about the magazine 'Salamandra', just pulled one out of my pile 
dated Sept. 1988 and see a 20 page article on "The behavioral repertoire of 32
species of the family Dendrobatidae is described on the basis of 62 behavioral
parameters..." When did any North American herp. specific mags start.
If I remember correctly it was in the mid 90's with Vivarium, Reptiles etc.
I will sometimes spend half a year getting a tank set-up, all my other
PDF friends will take a few days at the most. I also tend to agree with some
other comments that it is more money oriented here, i.e. I bought a trio (1.2)
of Gonatodes ocellatus over in Europe a few years ago for $30. I saw a pair
listed on Kingsnake a few weeks ago for around $350!


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## fraser2009 (Jan 4, 2009)

also i have noticed a lot of the great euro vivs are made by second gen builders who have grown up with the hobby. give it 10 years and im sure we will see the same quality if not better with the use of the net to share ideas.
sorry if this has been said
Fraser


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Dendrobatids frogs have been kept as long in the US as in Europe, or pretty close. If you go back to some of the early literature (which no one looks at) they were being kept in zoos in the early 70's (perhaps late 60's) and by individuals by the mid- to late-70's that I know about, perhaps earlier. The ISSD Newsletter came out in the late 70's and ended in the early 80's, followed by the ADG Newsletter, both of which I was editor of (for a short while for the former). Frog keeping has been much more popular in Europe for far longer, but there they've been kept here about as long as in Europe. 

Now on to tanks. The European style tank are and have been made here in the US for much more than a decade. A close friend of mine made one and delivered it yesterday and its absolute beautiful. He's been making them for year. But, unless you know him you'll never be able to see his tanks. They aren't on a web page. The web isn't the end all and be all of the hobby. There's a lot going on that will never make it to this medium. 


Best,

Chuck


edward said:


> I bought my first poison dart frog in 1973 (o. granulifera) and know
> people in Europe that have been breeding PDF's for 30 plus years.
> Look at the herp. specific magazines. I have the first issue of 'herpetofauna'
> dated July 1979 with a 4 page article on d. siverstonei by Rainer Schulte.
> ...


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