# Irritation



## AzureusTadpole (Jan 3, 2014)

I went to the portland aquarium today. I heard they had a dart frog exhibit, so I was going to check it out. I was appalled. 
Leucs, azureus, tincs, and auratus were being kept in a 30 gallon terrarium. They were all extremely skinny and were chasing each other around. One leucs leg was rubbery and was being dragged around as it was being chased.
I asked who was in charge and they replied that it was his day off. Apparently, when its a zookeepers day off , only he take care of his animals and no one else can. 


Someone might have to die...


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Quite depressing to hear. I've heard nothing good about that place. You should come to my store: hammer + vine | I have a couple fat healthy pairs of tincs on display there, no charge either. Thinking about adding some more tanks too.


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## AzureusTadpole (Jan 3, 2014)

BrainBug said:


> Quite depressing to hear. I've heard nothing good about that place. You should come to my store: hammer + vine | I have a couple fat healthy pairs of tincs on display there, no charge either. Thinking about adding some more tanks too.


Yep, wont be going back. But seeing your tincs would be quite a refreshing sight! Ive heard of your store, but Ive never been. I would love to check it out though!


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Always nice to see another local frogger on here.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I have a friend that works there. I know I'm putting myself out there, but, I'll call him in the morning and see what's up. The luec with the bad leg should be taken care of Absolutely. If there are problems I'll work with him to help get it fixed in what limited capacity I can. Some of your comments are very misguided though. They do have a very good staff of hard working, dedicated and caring people working there who do care about their animals. I am also no stranger to the difficulties they've had in the media there. I also know that much of those stories are blown out of proportion media sensationalism and are not based on actual facts. The person working there was the best man, and I his, at my wedding and I would implicitly trust his word. We also worked together for several years. He is one of the most honest people I've ever met. Let me ask you though, did you point out the problem to any Zookeepers(you only state you asked who was in charge)? Or did you just rush home to post how bad these guys suck? Did you take any pictures? How many frogs of each species/morph?

Zookeepers can't be everywhere at once. Perhaps the injury happened very recently. Having been a zookeeper, often guests are the first to notice a recent injury or even see one occur and alert staff. It has happened to all of us. No keeper can possibly be everywhere observing every animal at all times and sometimes crap just happens. For example, while working as a keeper, a guest noticed one our spider monkeys had gotten tangled in a plastic bag that a guest had thrown into the exhibit and keepers were able to quickly help her. 

Rest assured though, that if they're effing up, I'll bust his ass, you have my word on that. Unfortunately, for all I know, he has nothing to do with the darts and may not have any capacity to exact change.

Mixed Vivs are pretty par for the course for most Zoo's. Some of the most well respected(and some not) zoological institutions in the world have mixed species displays. I've seen mixed Species dart frog exhibits at every single zoo I've ever been to(El Paso, Houston, Denver, Dallas, San Antonio, to name a few). They simply don't see it the way we see it. This is not to defend them, but for you to understand that there is a lot more to consider than "rawr" mixed species tanks bad! Dartfrog nerd smash!

For example, the Zoo I used to work for, the El Paso zoo had a mixed species tank of Azureus and Auratus. Despite my strong objections, the curator made the decision to go forward with it. Working within my limited framework of authority, I was able to create a safe healthy group. We had over 40 animals total and they were rotated on and off exhibit. Behind the scenes holding areas were available IF we had bullied or thin animals, but this never manifested itself. A protocol for dealing with eggs was developed, they were culled, so as to prevent hybrids. It still rubs me the wrong way that I had to do this and I would still NOT advocate not doing it, especially for hobbyists, but it Can be done. Also so do many VERY well respected hobbyists. One of if not quite possibly the most well respected dart frog breeders, conservationists, and authorities in our hobby has some very big mixed species vivariums.


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## AzureusTadpole (Jan 3, 2014)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I have a friend that works there. I know I'm putting myself out there, but, I'll call him in the morning and see what's up. The luec with the bad leg should be taken care of Absolutely. If there are problems I'll work with him to help get it fixed in what limited capacity I can. Some of your comments are very misguided though. They do have a very good staff of hard working, dedicated and caring people working there who do care about their animals. I am also no stranger to the difficulties they've had in the media there. I also know that much of those stories are blown out of proportion media sensationalism and are not based on actual facts. The person working there was the best man, and I his, at my wedding and I would implicitly trust his word. We also worked together for several years. He is one of the most honest people I've ever met. Let me ask you though, did you point out the problem to any Zookeepers(you only state you asked who was in charge)? Or did you just rush home to post how bad these guys suck? Did you take any pictures? How many frogs of each species/morph?
> 
> Zookeepers can't be everywhere at once. Perhaps the injury happened very recently. Having been a zookeeper, often guests are the first to notice a recent injury or even see one occur and alert staff. It has happened to all of us. No keeper can possibly be everywhere observing every animal at all times and sometimes crap just happens. For example, while working as a keeper, a guest noticed one our spider monkeys had gotten tangled in a plastic bag that a guest had thrown into the exhibit and keepers were able to quickly help her.
> 
> ...


 Please do call! Im a shy person, so I didnt bring up any specific problems with the person who was there. I saw at least 1 azureus, 2 leucs, 2 tincs and 2-3 auratus. I wouldnt be so upset if the frogs werent so skinny! If the little guys were fat, you wouldnt be hearing anything from me. Thanks Doug for your help!


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Well if people go to a Zoo and see a mixed species exhibit, then you can't fault them when they come to a forum and want to do it. From their perspective they are going to be thinking, who knows what they are talking about? The professional zoo with people trained and educated in the field, or a bunch of random forum goers they know nothing about?

My point is if you really feel strongly about mixed species then you have to make a point, to let people know about it and not make exceptions just because its a zoo. I can say that pretty much EVERY publicly viewable poison dart frog exhibit I have every seen in person in my life was always a mixed species exhibit. And zoos are often behind the times on many issues so what's to say not time for them to start learning about the proper care as well?

I think most people are going to have a hard time logically accepting a no mixing stance when there are so many exceptions. And personally I can't tell someone not to mix if its OK for other people to do it. 

What I find most ironic is that pretty much every mixed species exhibit I have seen, not only mixes species but breaks every other "rule" as well. They mix ones that can hybridize and mix ones from very different geographical locations. So by the standards of this particular forum zoos are Satan to PDFs. 

I have a local pet store that mixes hardcore and sometimes, because I have talked to the owner and the guy who keeps the reptile area, I think about mentioning that this is frowned upon. But I never seem to bring myself to do it because well its OK for zoos you know. And its OK if you have a big enough tank, or are experienced enough it seems. And every time people bring it up, its kinda like well its a zoo they got to do it. But they don't, because they are a zoo and they have a budget that is way bigger than most normal people, and if they can't afford it then why is it unacceptable to have 1 species? But its not OK for you, because you are not a ZOO, or a person with a big cool tank. 

You can't have it both ways. If you support zoos mixing then the hobbyist are going to mix too. If one zoo sees another zoo mix, they are going to do it. But if you start pushing and showing the zoo that its bad publicity and form to mix then maybe they will start changing.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

AzureusTadpole said:


> Leucs, azureus, tincs, and auratus were being kept in a 30 gallon terrarium. They were all extremely skinny and were chasing each other around. One leucs leg was rubbery and was being dragged around as it was being chased.


Most zoo`s have mixed tanks, it`s just easier to have all the pretty colors
in one enclosure.
But to me, that is inexcusable no matter what zoo and who ever is in charge.
I was at the aquarium in Baltimore recently, I think they had about a dozen
tanks, none mixed in their exhibit.(if I remember correctly)
It can be done, most just don`t for lack of space or money

EDIT-think about the people who had to look at that disaster who probable said ''sure I can do that"


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Pubfiction said:


> And personally I can't tell someone not to mix if its OK for other people to do it.


Sure you can, if their inexperienced or they want to breed and sell them


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

AzureusTadpole said:


> Please do call! Im a shy person, so I didnt bring up any specific problems with the person who was there. I saw at least 1 azureus, 2 leucs, 2 tincs and 2-3 auratus. I wouldnt be so upset if the frogs werent so skinny! If the little guys were fat, you wouldnt be hearing anything from me. Thanks Doug for your help!


I understand and I apologize if I was a bit harsh. It is still early there so I still have not talked to my friend yet.

Did you happen to take any pictures? The reason I ask isn't to question you or try to burden you with proof, but many people have widely varied ideas of what constitutes a skinny frog.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I just want to be clear first and formost, I'm not advocating mixing, I don't think Zoos should mix darts, and I'm not trying to defend them. My point was to provide a prospective of someone who has been in this difficult spot as a keeper myself.

That said, I'm not entirely anti mixing. I do have the opinion that their are exceptions. I've seen it done right, done well, and to exceptional affect. There are mods here with mixed tanks, there are sponsors here with mixed tanks, there are people here who will scream until the cows come home that you shouldn't mix, but they do it themself. 



Pubfiction said:


> Well if people go to a Zoo and see a mixed species exhibit, then you can't fault them when they come to a forum and want to do it. From their perspective they are going to be thinking, who knows what they are talking about? The professional zoo with people trained and educated in the field, or a bunch of random forum goers they know nothing about?


Of course you can fault them.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this logic. So people who visit zoos think can or should do what zoos do? By the same thought process are they thinking, well, The zoo keeps an eagle, tiger, zebra so I can too?

I guess my perception is the exact opposite. I think people go to zoos and know that these are professionals working with animals that they shouldn't be.

And interestingly that is the exact thought process going on at a lot of zoos. They don't think generally, that the public has much business if any, keeping exotics, and as such, they're not concerned about setting an example for the general public should or shouldn't do. Its just not a concern for them.

In fact, I brought this up as an arguement as to why I didn't think our zoo at the time, should have a mixed species exhibit. And that was the exact rebuttal, that our zoo does not advocate the public keeping exotics and we're not there to set an example for how the public should keep any of our animals because the zoo doesn't think they have any business doing it in the first place. My disagreement was..... not well recieved.



> My point is if you really feel strongly about mixed species then you have to make a point, to let people know about it and not make exceptions just because its a zoo. I can say that pretty much EVERY publicly viewable poison dart frog exhibit I have every seen in person in my life was always a mixed species exhibit. And zoos are often behind the times on many issues so what's to say not time for them to start learning about the proper care as well?


In principal I agree, and I think my post record shows, I take a pretty damn strong stance against mixing in the vast majority of cases.

I also agree, in terms of many of the nuances of captive husbandry of some species, Zoos are woefully lacking, and even worse, not all zoos are even up to the same standards. As someone who has worked privately with exotics and fw/sw fish, I cant even begin to tell you how many frustrations I had as a keeper in this respect.

But to say that because Zoo's do frequently mix, suggests that they need to start learning about proper care is inaccurate. They know, I can assure you they know, but zoos and aquariums make compromises all the time for a huge variety of reasons, many good, many bad.



> I think most people are going to have a hard time logically accepting a no mixing stance when there are so many exceptions. And personally I can't tell someone not to mix if its OK for other people to do it.


I can. Its not hard to explain with a reasonable explanation, I've been doing it for years, and not just with darts. EnlightendRouge made a good point in a previous post.




> What I find most ironic is that pretty much every mixed species exhibit I have seen, not only mixes species but breaks every other "rule" as well. They mix ones that can hybridize and mix ones from very different geographical locations. So by the standards of this particular forum zoos are Satan to PDFs.


Have you communicated with staff to see what they do about potential hybrids? Every time I have, I've found the staff well informed and with a proper plan for culling eggs to prevent possible hybrids being created.

What other rules?

As for geographical issues, I agree, but at the same time there are two other issues to consider here. Where else in zoos have you seen animals from different geography mixed? Here is a hint, EVERYWHERE.

Second, zoos have full time staffed exotic vetrinarians and employ some pretty strict quaranine protocols and health checks, which help mitigate concerns about cross regional disease concerns



> I have a local pet store that mixes hardcore and sometimes, because I have talked to the owner and the guy who keeps the reptile area, I think about mentioning that this is frowned upon. But I never seem to bring myself to do it because well its OK for zoos you know. And its OK if you have a big enough tank, or are experienced enough it seems. And every time people bring it up, its kinda like well its a zoo they got to do it. But they don't, because they are a zoo and they have a budget that is way bigger than most normal people, and if they can't afford it then why is it unacceptable to have 1 species? But its not OK for you, because you are not a ZOO, or a person with a big cool tank.


So your earlier point was that you have to make a point and can't make exceptions, yet you yourself are admitting you won't make a point with this shop? 

As far as zoo budgets. Yes, zoos have big budgets, but if you knew just how little is allocated to their PDFs you wouldn't make this statement. Furthermore, the vast majority are all vastly more cash strapped than you probably realize.

Its pretty clear you've misinterpreted my point. In principal I agree with you, zoos shouldn't mix, but they do. I was trying to give some perspective on the subject.



> You can't have it both ways. If you support zoos mixing then the hobbyist are going to mix too. If one zoo sees another zoo mix, they are going to do it. But if you start pushing and showing the zoo that its bad publicity and form to mix then maybe they will start changing.


Yes and no. First, again, it bears repeating, I don't support Zoo's mixing. But that statement is just fallacious logic. Proper education and information on the subject will have far greater impact on what hobbyists do and don't do. I seriously still don't get how you assume that people are going to see a zoo doing something and do it them self. Its almost silly, its like that old saying. "If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you?"

I can also promise you that if you suggest to a zoo that they shouldn't be mixing because you think it is bad form and sets a bad example, they're going to tell you you shouldn't be keeping darts in the first place. I've also shown, how, I tried to show that it was bad form and practice from within, and that had little effect. I don't think you're going to gain any traction from the outside either. But by all means, try.

In the end, I think we're in basic general agreement. Zoo's mixing is not a good thing, neither is it for hobbiests. But it happens. And if we help others understand why, whats going on, and why some make exceptions, they can make a more informed choice themself.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> But to me, that is inexcusable no matter what zoo and who ever is in charge.


Why?

I agree in general principal, just curious what YOUR justification for that statement is?



> EDIT-think about the people who had to look at that disaster who probable said ''sure I can do that"



Hmmm, maybe I'm wrong. Are people really going to zoos and thinking, well they can do it, so I can do it do? You might be on to something here. This could explain why so many idiots try to keep large cats in their backyard in some states.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ok so I talked with my friend.

First and foremost, he is an aquarist there and does not have any direct interaction with the dart frogs. They're the responsibility of another set keepers.

He will be discussing your concerns with the appropriate staff members and see what actual issues exist and work to resolve them. He was not at all defensive and actually welcomed your concern and criticism. He doesn't see the frogs often personally. This may seem odd, but if you understand how zoos work, things are often compartmentalized for good reasons.

He did want to make sure it was clear, the terrarrium is 2x2x2 ft, which is 60 gallons. It is a mixed species display.

They do have a hybridization contingency. They're aware of the potential problem and have a specific plan and protocol. The frogs are not being bred. Any eggs that are laid, would be culled, though they have not gotten any eggs. They also have off exhibit holding areas set up and available in the event of any issues of aggression.

I was told they do have someone there who works with them who is also a dart frog enthusiast.

My friend promised to send me pictures, and with his permission, I will share them. I'm going to reserve comment on their health until I see them. He actually wants my opinion of them because he respects my knowledge and passion for them and wants my independent and straightforward assessment. I think a lot of people keep really fat unhealthy frogs so there is often a perception that frogs are too skinny when they're not. I'm not doubting you OP, but this may just be a difference of opinion.


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## asunderco (Apr 4, 2011)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ok so I talked with my friend.
> 
> First and foremost, he is an aquarist there and does not have any direct interaction with the dart frogs. They're the responsibility of another set keepers.
> 
> ...


ZookeeperDoug, you're a stand up guy. I commend you.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I have seen some cell phone shots of the frogs; an azureus, alanis, patricia, and an auratus that looks to be costarican. I have to respectfully disagree with the OP. The frogs are thin, but not skinny or sickly looking at all in my opinion. Sorry to disagree with your assessment of their health OP, but these frogs are just fine. The viv could use a little work, but I've seen far worse proudly shared here.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

asunderco said:


> ZookeeperDoug, you're a stand up guy. I commend you.


Yea, wait till you really get to know him!

Joke/of coarse


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Yea, wait till you really get to know him!
> 
> Joke/of coarse


It's true, I don't stand up strait at all, and practically drag my knuckles on the floor. Just ask my former female coworkers...


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you for your assistance with this, Doug. You didn't have to dirty your hand or risk your rep, but you did. I always appreciate your view on this kind of thing. You are in a unique position here, allowing you a different view than the rest of us can see.

I fail to see anything hypocritical in doing your job to the best of your ability, enacting changes where required, and educating as you do so.

Hey Doug, you remember when you first got here and you wanted thumbnails? I was more than a little reluctant, as you were a...(gasp) zookeeper. Do you recall that I made you agree that any frogs purchased from me would NOT be kept in any mixed viv? I'm dropping that condition. There are few I would trust more, to pull off a properly done mixed viv.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Thank you for your assistance with this, Doug. You didn't have to dirty your hand or risk your rep, but you did. I always appreciate your view on this kind of thing. You are in a unique position here, allowing you a different view than the rest of us can see.
> 
> I fail to see anything hypocritical in doing your job to the best of your ability, enacting changes where required, and educating as you do so.
> 
> Hey Doug, you remember when you first got here and you wanted thumbnails? I was more than a little reluctant, as you were a...(gasp) zookeeper. Do you recall that I made you agree that any frogs purchased from me would NOT be kept in any mixed viv? I'm dropping that condition. There are few I would trust more, to pull off a properly done mixed viv.


Thanks for the Kind words Doug. I do appreciate it. I do remember that visit. You were most generous and helpful. I even remember the very interesting, if not youthfully ideological recommendation of your son. It was even a learning experience for him about the realities of being an adult and having make the choice between taking a stand and sacrificing ideals to make what difference you can.

I am no stranger to some of the hobby stigmas around being, having been a zookeeper. People tend to initially lump you into one category until they get to know you better. Thankfully guys like you, Scott, and others overlooked just the name and met and helped me along the way. I'd like to think we've all learned from each other, but I still know I've taken far more than I've given back.


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## AzureusTadpole (Jan 3, 2014)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Thanks for the Kind words Doug. I do appreciate it. I do remember that visit. You were most generous and helpful. I even remember the very interesting, if not youthfully ideological recommendation of your son. It was even a learning experience for him about the realities of being an adult and having make the choice between taking a stand and sacrificing ideals to make what difference you can.
> 
> I am no stranger to some of the hobby stigmas around being, having been a zookeeper. People tend to initially lump you into one category until they get to know you better. Thankfully guys like you, Scott, and others overlooked just the name and met and helped me along the way. I'd like to think we've all learned from each other, but I still know I've taken far more than I've given back.


Im so glad that I was wrong! Thank you for having this taken care of! In no way, shape or form did I think that you were being harsh. Just thought I should mention something. Kudos to you for doing this. Whoop Whoop!


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

AzureusTadpole said:


> Im so glad that I was wrong! Thank you for having this taken care of! In no way, shape or form did I think that you were being harsh. Just thought I should mention something. Kudos to you for doing this. Whoop Whoop!


And in no way shape or form should you feel like you shouldn't bring your concerns about possible problems with something you see in public. My friend knows that I and most of the PDF community have a big issue with mixed species displays. I don't like seeing it anymore than anyone else but it is what it is. I'm glad we talked about it. Gave me an excuse to call up an old buddy I haven't talked to in far too long.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

BrainBug said:


> Quite depressing to hear. I've heard nothing good about that place. You should come to my store: hammer + vine | I have a couple fat healthy pairs of tincs on display there, no charge either. Thinking about adding some more tanks too.


Hey man, just wanted say that your store looks sharp. Give the Portland aquarium a chance at least before basing your judgement on the opinions of others. They are trying to put something really cool together. They know they've had some issues and how the community feels, but they're working on it hard. It's part of why my friend is there, to help them get it right.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Hey man, just wanted say that your store looks sharp. Give the Portland aquarium a chance at least before basing your judgement on the opinions of others. They are trying to put something really cool together. They know they've had some issues and how the community feels, but they're working on it hard. It's part of why my friend is there, to help them get it right.


Wow, just rechecked this forum and it blew up! 

Doug, I'm not criticizing zoos or other public displays for keeping mixed species. I am agreeing with the op based on 2 opinions I have heard from coworkers at a hospital I work at. The general consensus was that for the price the exhibit was very small and comments about cleanliness where made. Based on your comments here alone I will go. I'll refrain from posting links but all it takes is a google search on the place to find multiple reasons to dislike this place.

Please don't take this personally Doug, I'm not trying to bash your best friend and it's commendable that your looking out for him and if he's trying to clean it up then that's commendable too. When I visit I would like to meet him and see what kind of progress they are making. I really had no idea what a high profile bad rep they had until looking into them after your response.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Because people haven't learned how to do things right doesn't mean they're bad or dumb. They'll get it sorted out. The whole intention is for good. I just hate seeing people getting bashed when they make a mistake because of lack of knowledge which everyone can do at some point or another D= 

I actually let one of my leucs die when I was treating it for disease in a ringers solution because I walked away it became exhausted and it drown... I felt horrible but what can you do? It won't happen again tho -_-

-Nish


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

nish07 said:


> Because people haven't learned how to do things right doesn't mean they're bad or dumb. They'll get it sorted out. The whole intention is for good. I just hate seeing people getting bashed when they make a mistake because of lack of knowledge which everyone can do at some point or another D=
> 
> I actually let one of my leucs die when I was treating it for disease in a ringers solution because I walked away it became exhausted and it drown... I felt horrible but what can you do? It won't happen again tho -_-
> 
> -Nish


No one said anyone was bad or dumb. No one is bashing a person here. A statement of concern was merely brought up in regards to a private, for-profit facility that makes a living displaying animals. 

Yes everyone makes mistakes but being such a facility you should not be making the same mistakes that novices can easily avoid by reading a forum. Now in regards to the situation and behaviors described one would assume that was a result of bullying, again just an assumption but a likely scenario based on what the op observed. I think it's safe to say that most responsible keepers would pull either the bully or the bullied upon observance of aggressive behavior. Who knows? Maybe it was the first time the frog got bullied, 10 seconds before the op came and saw it. Apparently they have holding tanks for such circumstances so maybe everything was fine until right then. Maybe it got it's leg caught in a plant and freaked out. Maybe, but less likely and had this place had a good reputation to begin with then that would be more plausible.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

No controversy, just an observation. 
If we can give disgust to see a tank with mixed species, the same thing can not be said of the public who visit the zoo. But I think a zoo has an important function of education and science. It would be nice that they make education and science respecting the basic rules of keeping the animals and show them to people in an appropriate manner. This is just my 2 cents.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

BrainBug said:


> Wow, just rechecked this forum and it blew up!
> 
> Doug, I'm not criticizing zoos or other public displays for keeping mixed species. I am agreeing with the op based on 2 opinions I have heard from coworkers at a hospital I work at. The general consensus was that for the price the exhibit was very small and comments about cleanliness where made. Based on your comments here alone I will go. I'll refrain from posting links but all it takes is a google search on the place to find multiple reasons to dislike this place.


I know you weren't. My comments were directed more at others and in general.

I understand you concerns, I'm sure the Portland Aquarium does too. I'm just always wary of others opinions, who know what your friends biases are? 

As an example, when I started working at the El Paso Zoo, I almost immediately started hearing bad things, but they didn't jive with what I knew as an employee. I personally challenged people to visit the zoo with me and form an opinion of their own. I'd say most if not all left with a much better opinion, and certainly a better understanding of what that Zoo, and all zoos face.

I can't say the same would be true for the POrtland Aquarium, because I've never been there. But at least give it a shot. They're really new and from what I understand making progress everyday. As I understand it they have big plans to improve the PDF exhibit as well. Havin seen the pictures of your shop, perhaps you'ld be able to offer some insights and constructive criticisms? Who knows, you might just meet a fellow Frogger there.



> Please don't take this personally Doug, I'm not trying to bash your best friend and it's commendable that your looking out for him and if he's trying to clean it up then that's commendable too. When I visit I would like to meet him and see what kind of progress they are making. I really had no idea what a high profile bad rep they had until looking into them after your response.


I know it isn't personal. Take the profile and bad rep with a rain of salt though at least. There are always two sides to everystory.

For the record though, my guy has been there from the start. I didn't mean to make it sound like he was hired to "clean it up". But they are always striving to improve. I'll see what I can do to set up a meeting. Remember though, my guy isn't a PDF guy, he's an aquarist. But I'm sure he'd be happy to show you around, answer questions, or put you in touch with someone, who will.

I did get some texts from my buddy the other day that thanked me for bringing things to his attention. As it brought it to the attention of others. As I understand it, the vet did see the frogs yesterday just out of an abundance of caution. I also learned the vivarium is much bigger than even previously thought, it's a 150.


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## AzureusTadpole (Jan 3, 2014)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I know you weren't. My comments were directed more at others and in general.
> 
> I understand you concerns, I'm sure the Portland Aquarium does too. I'm just always wary of others opinions, who know what your friends biases are?
> 
> ...


 They have plans for the PDF exhibit? I'd go back to check it out ,once they're done. Sorry about my horrid estimate (30 gallons) XD


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Zookeeper Doug,now I'll just call ya Doug. 

Doug total admiration for how how went about,all that is contained in this thread.Quite possibly we differ on some points of view,agree on others,probably more agreement than the other stuff,but lay that aside,I like your style here Doug, I am compelled to say so!! 

Having worked in a specialist field where the pubic were able to "view" my work I appreciate both sides of what our hobby would like to see and the realities of looking out for animals on a large scale,the "confines" of a work environment,plus the goals of an individual keeper and how they can be restrained by the realities of a collection,open to the public.I won't ever see the institution mentioned here,but I do appreciate your thoughts for the animals and both sides of this debate.

Totally stand up Doug,good for you!! 

thank you

Stu


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

In fact, I like how you, Doug, come forward to find a solution or an explanation on the reason of this thread. Too often we prefer to let loose and "to wash the hand of it," as they say here.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I think for the most part this has been taken care of, so I wonder if we can make a slight detour for a moment.
Doug, you have special insight to things that we do not. After years of frustration regarding something, perhaps you can give me an answer.

I was NOT the first to frag corals. Far from it. I was, however, instrumental in bringing fragging corals to Colorado. I had my hands on many ultra rare corals. Corals way more colorful and rare than what they kept at the Denver Zoo, and also at Colorado's Ocean Journey Aquarium. I cannot tell you how many times I pressed a card into (the wrong?) hands and never heard back. I tried so hard to give them so many beautiful corals for free. It always seemed sheer idiocy to turn down such an offer. 
I can only imagine now that there must be a million regulations and hoops for them to jump through, preventing such a donation? Or is it more likely that every one of those many cards simply hit the trash can within 3 seconds of me turning my back?


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

rigel10 said:


> In fact, I like how you, Doug, come forward to find a solution or an explanation on the reason of this thread. Too often we prefer to let loose and "to wash the hand of it," as they say here.


Thanks. This is of course one situation where I had special insite and most importantly ACCESS.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> I think for the most part this has been taken care of, so I wonder if we can make a slight detour for a moment.
> Doug, you have special insight to things that we do not. After years of frustration regarding something, perhaps you can give me an answer.
> 
> I was NOT the first to frag corals. Far from it. I was, however, instrumental in bringing fragging corals to Colorado. I had my hands on many ultra rare corals. Corals way more colorful and rare than what they kept at the Denver Zoo, and also at Colorado's Ocean Journey Aquarium. I cannot tell you how many times I pressed a card into (the wrong?) hands and never heard back. I tried so hard to give them so many beautiful corals for free. It always seemed sheer idiocy to turn down such an offer.
> I can only imagine now that there must be a million regulations and hoops for them to jump through, preventing such a donation? Or is it more likely that every one of those many cards simply hit the trash can within 3 seconds of me turning my back?


I suspect a combination of the two. Breaking into supplying an AZA institution is a very hard thing to do, Especially for live animals. The beaurocracy and red tape is sometimes absurd. They have trusted vendors and most zoos simply don't want to go thru the red tape of getting anyone else approved. I was once tasked with purchasing some new fish for some zoo aquariums, and after seeing the limited selection of vendors that you couldn't pay me to buy fish from, and the failure to get approved good quality vendors I knew I could trust approved, I just washed my hands of the process oddly enough later, local regulations required all city entities to "choose local" first and we had to go to local shops looking for fish first. You can imagine what a disaster that was. All it took was for me to point out to out vet that I saw visible signs of a myriad of diseases to end that charade.

I don't remember Oceans Journey that well, I only went once. It may have simply been a case of them, thinking that your corals were not a fit with their focus? Did they even have a reef tank? I only remember the tigers and trout. Now that landrys bought them out, who knows what has happened to the place?

Back then there was and still is a process for getting yourself approved as an AZA vendor with all kinds of hoops to jump through. You'ld honestly have had better luck shipping the corals somewhere illegally, having them confiscated by USFW who would probably then have no choice but to donate them.

Last thing to keep in mind, most zoos/aquariums don't have much focus on reef keeping. I have Never seen a zoo reef I was impressed with. They just want to do a simple, easy to care fore, low overhead cost reeftank to display a reef environment and that's it. I've seen many try, and you can see where they were going, but it obvious they ran out of money, time, passion to keep them going so they always turn into zooanthid, aiptasia, hair algea, creeping gorgonian, Xenia infested nightmares. You might be lucky to find an occasional employee who is passionate about reefs doing a decent reef at a zoo.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Xenia infested nightmares.


Haha, I had a "Xenia infested nightmare" tank that I referred to as my Christmas Tank. It paid for Christmas with a good December harvest, for about 10 years. You could NOT get Xenia to make it Colorado alive. It was always reef soup. I brought home 5 or 6 types from GARF and to this day it makes up most of the Xenia in Colorado.

Thanks for the info Doug.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Haha, I had a "Xenia infested nightmare" tank that I referred to as my Christmas Tank. It paid for Christmas with a good December harvest, for about 10 years. You could NOT get Xenia to make it Colorado alive. It was always reef soup. I brought home 5 or 6 types from GARF and to this day it makes up most of the Xenia in Colorado.
> 
> Thanks for the info Doug.


It's funny how hardly anyone could get it to grow back in the day and now you can't pay people to put it in tanks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I suspect a combination of the two. Breaking into supplying an AZA institution is a very hard thing to do, Especially for live animals.


This varies from institution to institution.... One of the major hurdles is the regulations by AZA that the facility needed to have been seen by a person who could judge whether or not you were running a outfit that had good husbandry and ethics. Past that, having sold or donated corals to an institution generally would get you grandfathered into the approved list. 
The facility I worked for was very strict on these requirements having been burned several times in the past. 



ZookeeperDoug said:


> The beaurocracy and red tape is sometimes absurd. They have trusted vendors and most zoos simply don't want to go thru the red tape of getting anyone else approved.


This is because the logistics of getting someone on site to look at their setups is a pain in the ass. Often people would put a request out on one of the TAG lists if someone has dealt with a person or company. Generally, the registrars searched the ISIS (now ZIMS) data base for prior transactions and contacted the zoo that dealt with them. 
In general, I've seen it the other way... most companies or individuals don't want to wait through the approval process... these are the typical steps a very strict institution follows 

1) Curator wants animal(s)
2) files paperwork for the Animal Disposition Committee
3) Discussion may or may not be taken up at the next meeting (which are typically monthly)
4) Discussion at committee requires vet approval, possibly nutritionist approval
5) If the animals are being brought in as part of a study or breeding project has to be put before the institutions IACUC committee (see here for what it is Welcome To IACUC) and be approved
6) quarantine space and keeper availability is required to care for the animals (some zoos plan quarantine openings months in advance) when they are going to be shipped. If something happens, quarantine space may be reallocated requiring a postponement of the shipment. 
7) all required permits need to be in order (including those required by the zoo to exhibit the animals).
8) The graphics for the exhibit need to be ready to go once the animals are past quarantine. 
9) Shipping of the animals and payment need to be scheduled (payment is typically 30-60 day purchase order). Weather has to be acceptable for shipment

Donations typically don't require the same hoops that purchases require.. In those typically approval of the aquisition, IACUC and quarantine space typically allows these to occur. Most zoos use a standard donation form that has the standard that the animals were to the best of the person's knowledge obtained legally and that the person relinquishes all rights to the animals to the zoo regardless if the zoo keeps them or sends them to another zoo. 

With respect to Doug (Pumilo) not hearing from the institutions, I would suspect that there was insufficient communication or politics for the donations. In that kind of reaction, sending a inquiry e-mail to the listed contacts or cold calling the department typically gives the best results. 

I used xenia back in the day to pay for many things as well... If I still had a tank set up, I'd still have it in there. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks Ed for a much more in depth and detailed explanation.


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