# Mixing Darts and Tarantulas



## spiderman43 (Jun 4, 2008)

i've had dart frogs and various tarantulas for some years now, and today the idea of mixing them in the same tank popped into my head. I was wondering if anyone has tried this before, or has an opinion on how safe for the frogs it would be. The only reason i thought of this, stemmed from a trip to the atlanta batanical gardens. They had had a pinktoe tarantula living in one of their dart tanks. And wouldn't you know it, I have a pinktoe taratula. I just think I would be really badass to add my pinktoe into the new 75 i've been building! What do you think?


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## boyaminalnurse (May 7, 2008)

First I'd like to say (no offense) I HATE spiders. They are creepy. so here is some infor I found on your spider. 

Insects and Arthropods » Tarantulas » Pink Toed Tarantula Main Page
Pink Toed Tarantulas are not commonly seen during the daylight hours. You are much more likely to run into one at night as this is when it is usually hunts for prey. The Pink Toed Tarantula is an arboreal species and is also a web builder. Its tubular webs are commonly seen in folded leaves in the tree of the rainforests where they live. In the wild the Pink Toed Tarantula commonly preys on insects, reptiles and tree frogs. Some have noted that they will occasionally eat small roosting birds.

I personally do not think it is a good idea. Pink Toed Tarantulas hunt for food at night while darts are trying to sleep. I would be afraid of the beast trying to eat my darts. If they eat tree frogs in the wild why not darts??? That is my opinion


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Looked up the care sheet on one of these spiders...
Pinktoe Tarantula Care Sheet

_Ventilation is very important with this species, and many people have lost tarantulas due to the poor ventilation. These tarantulas need higher humidity than most other species as well, making ventilation even more important! If the air in the tank is damp and stale, *molds can grow, making it a dangerous environment for the tarantula. Death can occur from molds growing in the spiders' lungs. (your tank can get mold in it)*_

_Spiderlings eat flightless fruit flies, pinhead crickets, and other small insects. Adults eat crickets, moths, flies, other large insects, and an *occasional small lizard or pinkie mouse*_*. ( if they will eat a lizzard or a baby mouse...most likely they will eat a frog)*

*Temperature*75 to 85° *( 85 is too warm for darts)* F.*Humidity*78 to 82%.*(the highest required for the spider is the low side the frogs need)*


A group of us went to the ABG a few months ago and did the Behind the Scenes tour of the amphibian room and we spent a very long time at the dart frog exhibits. The gentleman who takes care of the frogs never mentioned a spider in the tanks..I would have remembered!! I would have picked up my skirt and ran like the girl I am if a tarantula was mentioned. Especially since the guy opened the doors of the tanks for us so we could get good pictures. Which tank did you see the spider in?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Click this link and scroll down (you'll know the photos when you see them): www.DendroBase.de


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## Link3898 (Sep 18, 2008)

hummm... that links not working....

i have to agree with other people... darts and turantulas... though they live in the same places in the wild in captivity its probally really not a good idea.. im sure dart frogs are on the menu since other frogs are. not to mention feeder crickets die and rot all over in a humid enviornment. i had that problem with red eyed tree frogs.. the crickets they miss are dead by morning and smell pretty bad


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## boyaminalnurse (May 7, 2008)

I am with you divingne1. The local pet store knows when I come in if I need something where those creatures are they have to bring it to me. You will see a full grown man scream like a little girl and run the hell away. I dont even deal well with small spiders. YUK!!!
A few years ago I had been offered a job as a manager at a veterinary hospital so I quit the current job. On the last day (like 10 mins before I was off) they had petco bring in a tarantula and put it in a box in the room. Told me I had to go weigh it. HELL NO I WASNT GONNA WEIGH THAT THING. The DVM was like you have to. Um, no I dont I already gave my notice, I have 10 mins y'all have a nice night. They decided it would be funny to chase me around the hospital with it. Man I was in my car in seconds I would have ran them over they came near my car with that thing.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I'm weird like that I can handle Tarantualas and larger scorpions but I hate the little buggers. I think it's because they can sneak up on your easier.

On the mixing frogs and tarantulas, I'm not trying to be rude, but the fact you even have them and are thinking about mixing makes me wonder about your knowledge of the animals you have.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

boyaminalnurse said:


> I am with you divingne1. The local pet store knows when I come in if I need something where those creatures are they have to bring it to me. You will see a full grown man scream like a little girl and run the hell away. I dont even deal well with small spiders. YUK!!!
> A few years ago I had been offered a job as a manager at a veterinary hospital so I quit the current job. On the last day (like 10 mins before I was off) they had petco bring in a tarantula and put it in a box in the room. Told me I had to go weigh it. HELL NO I WASNT GONNA WEIGH THAT THING. The DVM was like you have to. Um, no I dont I already gave my notice, I have 10 mins y'all have a nice night. They decided it would be funny to chase me around the hospital with it. Man I was in my car in seconds I would have ran them over they came near my car with that thing.


ok....dont mix. politely stated. bad bad idea. i agree with ev eryones posts.....boyanimalnurse that had me rolling. i would have done the same thing though lol kristy


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## kamazza (Sep 2, 2008)

Yea not a good idea, no offense. I would think this is basically mixing predator with prey.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Never read up on spiders at bedtime when you know you are prone to nightmares. Holy cow I had a long restless night.

BTW..those pictures of that tarantula eating that auratus should get the point across if nothing else does.

Candy


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## calvinyhob (Dec 18, 2007)

spiderman43 said:


> i've had dart frogs and various tarantulas for some years now, and today the idea of mixing them in the same tank popped into my head. I was wondering if anyone has tried this before, or has an opinion on how safe for the frogs it would be. The only reason i thought of this, stemmed from a trip to the atlanta batanical gardens. They had had a pinktoe tarantula living in one of their dart tanks. And wouldn't you know it, I have a pinktoe taratula. I just think I would be really badass to add my pinktoe into the new 75 i've been building! What do you think?


And i thought i had seen it all asked on here!!! WOW


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## Nillocean (Oct 3, 2008)

hello 

I have a giant frog eating snake and today i was thinking....Darts and a giant frog eating snake....YES!!!they would look sooooo cool in the same tank. What do you guys think? I Also have a lion & lamb combo in my basement terrarium. They are so cute and friendly to each other, always wrestling and nibbling on each other, so cool.


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## asplundii (Jul 15, 2008)

divingne1 said:


> A group of us went to the ABG a few months ago and did the Behind the Scenes tour of the amphibian room and we spent a very long time at the dart frog exhibits. The gentleman who takes care of the frogs never mentioned a spider in the tanks..I would have remembered!! I would have picked up my skirt and ran like the girl I am if a tarantula was mentioned. Especially since the guy opened the doors of the tanks for us so we could get good pictures. Which tank did you see the spider in?



I have had free roam of ABG for about the last 7 years and I have never seen a Tarantula in with the frogs. 

I am not even sure I have seen a Tarantula over at ABG ever... I know there have been the occasional rogue house spiders in some of the tanks and even a large orb weaver of some sort...


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## rhill (Oct 17, 2008)

Just to be totally clear, we do not mix tarantulas and frogs at the Atlanta Botanical Garden nor have we at any point in the past that I am aware of. 

Thank you,

Robert Hill
Amphibian Specialist
Atlanta Botanical Garden


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

There is a tarantula at the Baltimore Aquarium - under the glass pyramid.

But it is in a funky log type container with a glass end. It doesn't have free movement about the tropical forest under the pyramid.

s


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Sounds like a death sentence for both the frogs and the tarantulas

I don't even think they would look cool together


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## spiderman43 (Jun 4, 2008)

Yes, you all think i'm an idiot and I know nothing of animals right now but I have logical reasoning. I volunteered John Ball zoo in Grand Rapids, I work at an exotic pet store in the area and I am a Bio Major. So thanks, for those who said I don't know about these animals habits. Not, to mention I've done extensive research on both of theses animals for my own personal gain as well as various projects. So, I have quit the extensive amount of knowlage about their indivigual habits, not to metion the many years of experience i've had owning them both. I asked the question, because atlanta botanical gardens, DID! mix the 2, and I was reading about it in national geographic. 

Without being to technical, taratulas have terrible eyesight, so they rely almost exclusively on touch. In the national geographic I was reading, they said that the tarantulas that overlap the dartfrog bounderies can sense the feel of the frog and know it is dangerous. The same way they don't go lunging for my had when I brush them in the cage. And as soon as a cricket touch it ever so slightly it is dead in in instant.

thanks to those who wern't so rude about my question. I just thought it would be cool to see what people think.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

spiderman43 said:


> Yes, you all think i'm an idiot and I know nothing of animals right now but I have logical reasoning. I volunteered John Ball zoo in Grand Rapids, I work at an exotic pet store in the area and I am a Bio Major. So thanks, for those who said I don't know about these animals habits. Not, to mention I've done extensive research on both of theses animals for my own personal gain as well as various projects. So, I have quit the extensive amount of knowlage about their indivigual habits, not to metion the many years of experience i've had owning them both. I asked the question, because atlanta botanical gardens, DID! mix the 2, and I was reading about it in national geographic.
> 
> Without being to technical, taratulas have terrible eyesight, so they rely almost exclusively on touch. In the national geographic I was reading, they said that the tarantulas that overlap the dartfrog bounderies can sense the feel of the frog and know it is dangerous. The same way they don't go lunging for my had when I brush them in the cage. And as soon as a cricket touch it ever so slightly it is dead in in instant.
> 
> thanks to those who wern't so rude about my question. I just thought it would be cool to see what people think.


One of the issues with this statement is that several people have said they don't mix tarantulas at Atlanta Botanical Gardens...

If you want the full on answer to that unless you have the ability to create a zoo quality vivarium (ie: several hundred gallons) then considering "they" did it and so there for you can isn't valid.

Saying that the tarantula will know the frog is dangerous by touch does not work either because as you should know with all your extensive knowledge dart frogs do not maintain their levels of toxicity in captivity unless they are fed very specific diets that are not common to hobbyists.

The fact that you mentioned tarantulas have very poor eye sight further lends to say that they wouldn't know the difference between a dart frog and a tree frog if the dart frog had no toxins.

I understand some people were rude in this post however, your response does not credit you one iota. All it says is that you know better than everyone who posted here to begin with and you were just asking the question to see what kind of reaction you would get. Not that you were posting it for informational reasons.

In all honesty all of the credentials you have stated really aren't that credible to being an "all animals expert". Plenty of people work at pet stores that don't have a clue, volunteering at the zoo might have you working with monkeys and donkeys not frogs and tarantulas, and being a bio student could mean anything from marine biology to microbiology or anything in between.

Just trying to point out why you may not be getting all the warm fuzzies.


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## spiderman43 (Jun 4, 2008)

Oh, and on the comment about atlanta batanical gardens, this was about 5 years back now. When I first saw the tarantula it in there dispaly I wonderd if it should have been in there or not. I had pics at one time, but over time they have got lost and I can't find them. But, there was DEFINATLLY a pinktoe tarantula with the dart frogs, in the display tank by the restrooms, if it is still there now.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

In theory the idea seems very cool to have animals coexisting with eachother in a naturalistic enviroment similar to that of their original habitats. But being that they are in a viv, no matter how big it is ( and we are speaking realistically in your home) the animals do not have the ability to escape or find shelter to hide from predators. Given the tarantula and frogs would be together even if the tarantula doesn't usually eat the frogs in the wild, he could eat him by mistake. And I know of this as a fact, that even though tarantulas don't atack people I have known people that have gotten bit by accident.
Also their is the fact that a predator like a spider even if its a small tarantula could greatly stress out the frogs and lead to their demise, or certainly shorten their life span. Not only would they be stressed, normal behavior would probably be greatly altered, they would probably hide, not feed well, nor breed. Which I know isn't the point of keeping these frogs but definitly is a great advantage of them. I think overall it could be interesting if the frogs could get away but then they wouldn't be in a pratical viv in your home.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A couple of comments... 

1) while dendrobatids lose thier most dangerous toxins, this does not mean that they are toxin free.. all amphibians produce a lot of different peptides for defence, as well as antimicrobial action. For those who are really interested in it I recommend, Amphibian Biology, the Integument edited by Heatwold. If you choose to make your own test of this, (against my advice), badly stress a terriblis and lick it. Make sure you have someone who can take you to the hospital if you have a really bad reaction..... (search the frognet archives there is a first hand account of someone trying it and I know I posted it here). 

2) I couldn't put my hands on it right now, but cohabitation by "tarantulas" with anurans has been documented from North America (with Gastrophryne and trap-door spiders) all the way down to Peru (see Cocroft, R. and K. Hambler. 1989. Observations on a commensal relationship of the microhylid frog Chiasmocleis ventrimaculata and the burrowing theraphosid spider Xenesthis immanis in southeastern Peru. Biotropica. 21(1):2-8.) and I remember a reference to a tarantula and D. auratus where the auratus sheltered in the tarantula burrow and were rejected as a food item due to thier taste. So it might be the alkaloids that caused them to reject the dendrobatids but other peptides could also function in the same way. 

Ed


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## spiderman43 (Jun 4, 2008)

Thanks Ed! That was the information I was pointing toward in my original post, But I wasn't able to find the documentation.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Did everyone miss the picture on dendrobase of a tarantula eating an auratus in the wild? In my mind that ends the argument right there. Furthermore, this is now the second time I've heard this happening - Kyle Summers witnessed the same thing (tarantula eating auratus) a few years back.

-Evan


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## spiderman43 (Jun 4, 2008)

Yeah, I wasn't saying that it never happens. I just thought it was cool that there is some documention about cohabitation. It is a cool pic though!


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

This might be slightly off topic but how is it cool to watch one animal eat another? I'm not a vegitarian or anything but unless I have some kind of personal grudge against the specific specimen being fed (incident with a hamster...) I find no gratification in seeing the death of an animal.

I do of course accept that it needs to happen but do not take joy in it or get entertainment from it. I like animals much more than I like people and I can say I don't even know that I would take joy in seeing 100 people fed out to animals even though it's natural if they were lions etc.



spiderman43 said:


> Yeah, I wasn't saying that it never happens. I just thought it was cool that there is some documention about cohabitation. It is a cool pic though!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ric Sanchez said:


> Did everyone miss the picture on dendrobase of a tarantula eating an auratus in the wild? In my mind that ends the argument right there. Furthermore, this is now the second time I've heard this happening - Kyle Summers witnessed the same thing (tarantula eating auratus) a few years back.
> 
> -Evan


Going a little off-topic here... 

One of the problems I see in this hobby is that we tend to get stuck in ruts and do not evaluate the question or the idea based solely on plausibility or available information.. For example, despite data indicating that at least some spiders do coinhabit with anurans and that at least some dendrobatids are unpalatable (see link posted below this paragraph) to a number of spiders, the consensus from the respondents is that it won't work. There is a report in the literature from Summers about predation on auratus.. but this then begs the question, is this by all spiders? If the literature is reviewed then there is one species of theraphosid that may be the major predator of of D. auratus but this does not implicate all species of theraphosids.. More research needs to be done before this can be answered. (for a review of this in the literature for many amphibians see http://ppbio.inpa.gov.br/Port/public/an/aranhasmenin.pdf which to me indicates there is a lot we don't know). 
Insect Repellents: Principles ... - Google Book Search) 

In the end, is it plausible? Yes provided the correct species of spider can be determined and if the question can be answered if it is the aquired alkaloids that cause the frogs to be unpalatable or are they the other secretions found in the skin of the frogs. Are these the secretions that are present when the frog is stressed or are the normal levels a suitable deterrant? 

Some further comments,

Ed


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Ed said:


> Going a little off-topic here...
> 
> One of the problems I see in this hobby is that we tend to get stuck in ruts and do not evaluate the question or the idea based solely on plausibility or available information.. For example, despite data indicating that at least some spiders do coinhabit with anurans and that at least some dendrobatids are unpalatable (see link posted below this paragraph) to a number of spiders, the consensus from the respondents is that it won't work. There is a report in the literature from Summers about predation on auratus.. but this then begs the question, is this by all spiders? If the literature is reviewed then there is one species of theraphosid that may be the major predator of of D. auratus but this does not implicate all species of theraphosids.. More research needs to be done before this can be answered. (for a review of this in the literature for many amphibians see http://ppbio.inpa.gov.br/Port/public/an/aranhasmenin.pdf which to me indicates there is a lot we don't know).
> Insect Repellents: Principles ... - Google Book Search)
> ...


Ed, 

I think one of the problems is that Joe Q. Frogger, who's primary interest is a cool tank, isn't the person to be evaluating these questions. Any outcomes Joe has aren't likely to be of any great scientific worth.

It'd be a substantially different story if Joe came on and said "I wanna run a scientific experiment, to determine whether or not some certain dartfrogs can potentially cohabitate with some certain tarantula." But that's not what's going on here.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

When I first responded to this post, I pasted the information from a site where I researched the caresheet for the named spider. It stated a few things that would lead me to believe that the environment would not be healthy for the spider. The one that stood out the most was the high side of the humidity for the specified spider was 82%. If the tank got mold in it, the mold could possibly grow in the spiders lungs which could kill it. If I was into spiders (shutter) I would not risk this. 
Candy


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Catfur said:


> Ed,
> 
> I think one of the problems is that Joe Q. Frogger, who's primary interest is a cool tank, isn't the person to be evaluating these questions. Any outcomes Joe has aren't likely to be of any great scientific worth.
> 
> It'd be a substantially different story if Joe came on and said "I wanna run a scientific experiment, to determine whether or not some certain dartfrogs can potentially cohabitate with some certain tarantula." But that's not what's going on here.


Absolutely.
I would say that most of those who either have to ask about mixing , or say they are going to mix outright , may have problems discussing the above average to expert issues needed to go into why and how in fact it is possible to mix many different animals when done correctly. 
Yes, most scientific minded posts don't start out by saying how "badass" it would be to add darts and tarantulas to a 75 gal. viv.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Another aspect of this that unless I've overlooked in the thread is the web. Sure there is the chance that the spider won't eat the frog, but the web is going to be a huge danger. How long is it going to take for fruitflies to get stuck in the web and the frog thinks, easy target and bam. Back in my pet store days we kept pink toes, but I can't remember how sticky their webs were. I think that the web may even be a bigger threat than the spider itself. It's a pretty interesting topic to discuss, but way out of the realm of possible for the general viv enthusiast I imagine.


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## Sarkany (Mar 11, 2008)

dwdragon said:


> Saying that the tarantula will know the frog is dangerous by touch does not work either because as you should know with all your extensive knowledge dart frogs do not maintain their levels of toxicity in captivity unless they are fed very specific diets that are not common to hobbyists.


Oookay... not taking into account the bad eyesight of the animal... if the spider had a way to recognize the dart frog as a dart frog, it would know the dart frog is dangerous because it was in it's _genes_ to instinctively know "dangerous, stay away/don't eat". Of course, since a predator species would need a long time to genetically "learn" that one particular prey species is poisonous to them, this would only apply if the spider species and the frog species really came across each other in nature. The spiders would have developed some way to recognize the frog, color, shape, whatever. This is the reason the frogs' are so brightly colored, after all - so that predators can easily recognize them and know to stay the heck away from them. If that didn't work, what would there even be mimicry for? 
Which renders the fact that the frog's no longer poisonous in captivity totally irrelevant - since the spider instinctively wouldn't eat it - except of course, if the way to recognize the frog were via "smelling" the amount of poison in it's skin...
Mind you, we're talking about predators here that would have such an animal on its (somewhat) regular diet... not about a species where an individual tries one paricular food (out of sheer dumbness ) that is poisonous, and might even kill them, but if that food isn't eaten by others of the same species (too regularly), well, what's one individual more or less to nature anyway? 

Of course, if the spider species were not very vulnerable to the frog species' poison in the first place, it might not care very much that the frog is somewhat poisonous... D. auratus isn't all that poisonous to begin with, and if one's registered on Dendrobase, one can, on the D. auratus caresheet, see a bird spider (as I have little interest in and therefore little knowledge about spiders, I couldn't say whether it also counts as a tarantula) having caught a wild D. auratus. The spider is (I just checked since I was on Dendrobase.de anyway ) _Sericopelma rubronitens_.


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