# Amazonica vs Variabilis



## DendroDaniel (Jan 24, 2020)

I am currently in the process of choosing thumbnails for my 29 gallon setup (30x12x18). I have done a copious amount of research and have narrowed my list down to the Ranitomeya Amazonica “Red” and Ranitomeya Variabilis “Southern” or “Highland”. My two main criteria when picking out my next thumbnails were boldness and positive social behavior in a group setting. Going through the different threads, it looks like everyone’s experiences with their thumbnails differ drastically from the next keeper due to tank setup and individual frog’s personality/behavior amongst many other factors. I would love any additional insight and personal experience with one or both of the thumbnails. Which Ranitomeya would you recommend?


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Only have limited experience, 6 months, but same as you I've done research and asked around.

Got 4 variabilis, borja ridge 2.2. Definitely on the shy side. But I've noticed that after misting, they come out a lot. Males are bolder for mine. Plenty of leaf litter definitely helps in helping mine be bolder. Also noticed that they all got a little bit holder with age and after they started breeding. I was considering selling mine, not because they are shy, but because they still haven't produced any good eggs. But decided not to after research. I'm just hoping that soon they will be able to since they're only a year old and quite new to breeding.

Very beautiful colours and I love that they are shy and skittish. Variabilis are apparently known to be less aggressive as a group. 

My other recommendation, although I've no experience, is imitators. Lots of varieties. I like them because they take care of their tadpoles. Variabilis has a different way of "taking care" of their tads lol


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

I was very much in the same boat as you, knew we wanted Ranitomeya, also wanted to lower the chance of aggression to deal with as we were new to keeping them. Had the exact same short list but went for Amazonica purely on looks (they are the two colour my sons plays football in).

My limited experience had found Amazonica to differ in behaviour frog to frog. I have 1 very bold one and 1 very shy one. The shy one we can go days (and a couple of times, weeks) without seeing. The bold one is out almost certainly every time we go to the tank. The two others (which we think are the males) both look the same (have exactly the same pattern) and behave very similar in that you can see them but they are certainly wary of being out in the open.

Personally didn't see a difference with leaf litter amount as ours spend all their time high up in the tank. Added more ledges later on thinking I would give them more options, but they stick to the same ones they originally used a lot.

I personally enjoy the fact you have to look for ours, because they are small you really have to hunt them out and they're certainly fantastic to watch.

Not sure your experience with frogs but it's also a bit of a comfort that they are shy, early on we had one escape because I spooked him opening the door and they are rapid, more rapid than I could ever imagine. The fact they are shy means they shoot to the back when they know the door is opening, that's far more preferential for me.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

DendroDaniel said:


> have narrowed my list down to the Ranitomeya Amazonica “Red” and Ranitomeya Variabilis “Southern” or “Highland”. My two main criteria when picking out my next thumbnails were boldness and positive social behavior in a group setting.


If you end up choosing _R. amazonica_, there are lines that are of known legal origin that might be worth seeking out (Understory Enterprises lines). I see some WC amazonica ("Amazonian Red Striped") being offered lately that should definitely be avoided.

You imply that you currently keep thumbs. Which ones?


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## DendroDaniel (Jan 24, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> If you end up choosing _R. amazonica_, there are lines that are of known legal origin that might be worth seeking out (Understory Enterprises lines). I see some WC amazonica ("Amazonian Red Striped") being offered lately that should definitely be avoided.
> 
> You imply that you currently keep thumbs. Which ones?


I have definitely seen the “Amazonian Red Striped” line floating around. I‘ve emailed some of the places carrying them for more details and have gotten very vague responses. So far, I’ve only found one breeder who is working with the true “Red” line from Todd Kelley. I love the darker orange/red tint on the “Red”. I’ve noticed some of “Iquitos” are more yellow-orange. 

I currently do not own any thumbnails. These would be my first. Any recommendations?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

You said "my next thumbnails", so I thought you already kept some. And no, don't buy WC frogs.

I was going to point out that "boldness" in thumbs is a relative term. Even imitators, which I think are considered among the most bold, are going to be hiding at least as much as they're out (not that I'm recommending imis in a group, I'm just referring to a frog I know). 

Would you be crushed if you ended up with frogs that don't come out when friends come over to see them? That's typically thumbnail behavior.



DendroDaniel said:


> I have definitely seen the “Amazonian Red Striped” line floating around. I‘ve emailed some of the places carrying them for more details and have gotten very vague responses. So far, I’ve only found one breeder who is working with the true “Red” line from Todd Kelley. I love the darker orange/red tint on the “Red”. I’ve noticed some of “Iquitos” are more yellow-orange.
> 
> I currently do not own any thumbnails. These would be my first. Any recommendations?


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## DendroDaniel (Jan 24, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> You said "my next thumbnails", so I thought you already kept some. And no, don't buy WC frogs.
> 
> I was going to point out that "boldness" in thumbs is a relative term. Even imitators, which I think are considered among the most bold, are going to be hiding at least as much as they're out (not that I'm recommending imis in a group, I'm just referring to a frog I know).
> 
> Would you be crushed if you ended up with frogs that don't come out when friends come over to see them? That's typically thumbnail behavior.


Sorry, I meant to say my next frogs. I’m pretty new to dart frog keeping. I’m not looking for Leuc-level boldness. I would just like seeing them from time to time. I currently have a couple of Auratus darts, maybe something a little more bold than them.


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## DendroDaniel (Jan 24, 2020)

Jand1k said:


> Only have limited experience, 6 months, but same as you I've done research and asked around.
> 
> Got 4 variabilis, borja ridge 2.2. Definitely on the shy side. But I've noticed that after misting, they come out a lot. Males are bolder for mine. Plenty of leaf litter definitely helps in helping mine be bolder. Also noticed that they all got a little bit holder with age and after they started breeding. I was considering selling mine, not because they are shy, but because they still haven't produced any good eggs. But decided not to after research. I'm just hoping that soon they will be able to since they're only a year old and quite new to breeding.
> 
> ...


I’m really hoping to keep a group of four thumbnails for my tank as well. How big is your enclosure if you don’t mind me asking? Have you witnessed any aggression or egg-eating? 

I love the colors and patterns of the Imis but have read they are not good group frogs. I want to avoid having to rehome frogs due to aggression.


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

DendroDaniel said:


> I’m really hoping to keep a group of four thumbnails for my tank as well. How big is your enclosure if you don’t mind me asking? Have you witnessed any aggression or egg-eating?
> 
> I love the colors and patterns of the Imis but have read they are not good group frogs. I want to avoid having to rehome frogs due to aggression.


I agree with Socratic Monologue. 

My enclosure is currently 30x30x45 ZooMed. Originally had 3(2.1), a latest addition was from hobbyist who was moving country so grabbed the chance to get a female from a different line. On the process now of building a 20 gallon. 

I've seen 2 males chasing each other for a couple of minutes and then stops. Happens maybe once a week. But the funny thing is when they breed, all 4 go into one canister when there are 2 canisters in the viv. I've seen and have been told by breeders that it's a common behaviour for them to have a group breeding session lol. I've planted as much bromeliad with pups in my current viv to hopefully increase territorial boundaries. But again, these kinds are known to be the 'least' aggressive in the ranitomeya species. 'Least' being the keyword as they will still display some level of aggressiveness. 

No egg eating at all after the 9th clutch they had. Still no fertile egg though. I'm so sad. Lol I'll just persevere. 

Yes that's the downside of imis, as Socratic has pointed out. And I do agree that it would be sad to rehome them due to agresssivenes, but I've also seen that a big viv with lots of plants works with a group of imis. They're territorial so with enough space it is possible to work. If in nature they still manage to find each other and can get aggressive then is it for us to try and change their nature/behaviour? It's in their genes. If you don't want to see any aggressiveness then I guess the best thing to do is just keep a pair. 

The red amazonicas are beautiful. I say go with what you like haha


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

I echo the sentiment of going with the frogs you desire. Everyone also will report different boldness levels which can even vary between morphs of the same species. 

My thumbnails ranked in boldness most to least:
1. Uakarii gold leg
2. R. Benedicta (tie)
2. R. Variabilis southern (tie)
4. R. Amazonica blackwater
5. R. Sirensis highland

In general the southerns will be bolder and bigger than amazonica. Southerns are also bolder than variabilis highlands (in general). Your results may vary as some people report Benedicta as shy when mine are always out. Just go with the frogs you want.

Amazonica red aren't always available so if you see them know opportunity doesn't come around often 

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## DendroDaniel (Jan 24, 2020)

FrogTim said:


> I echo the sentiment of going with the frogs you desire. Everyone also will report different boldness levels which can even vary between morphs of the same species.
> 
> My thumbnails ranked in boldness most to least:
> 1. Uakarii gold leg
> ...



Would you consider the Uakarii to be a good group frog? Any aggression? Are they breeding for you? I wonder if the 'Tamshiyacu' are just as bold as the 'Gold Legged'. Would love to keep these guys at one point.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

DendroDaniel said:


> Would you consider the Uakarii to be a good group frog? Any aggression? Are they breeding for you? I wonder if the 'Tamshiyacu' are just as bold as the 'Gold Legged'. Would love to keep these guys at one point.


Uakarii are not great group frogs. They will fight in groups.
My uakarii are great, bold fun frogs


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

DendroDaniel said:


> Would you consider the Uakarii to be a good group frog? Any aggression? Are they breeding for you? I wonder if the 'Tamshiyacu' are just as bold as the 'Gold Legged'. Would love to keep these guys at one point.


My gold legged I purchased as a 0.0.4 less than a year old. Only had them a few months no calling yet. Eyeballing it I have a 1.3 or 2.2. very bold almost as much as the intermedius I briefly kept. I have all 4 in a 12x18 growout. Planned on separating into pairs. No aggression yet

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## Bioguy77 (Apr 26, 2018)

Can anyone explain what the numbers 0.0.4, 1.2 etc mean?

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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Bioguy77 said:


> Can anyone explain what the numbers 0.0.4, 1.2 etc mean?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk


https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/355122-what-do-numbers-mean.html


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## gladiatorsgi (Sep 26, 2011)

I've had a large group of 10+ r. variabilis highland (UE Line) in a 18x18x36 inch exo-terra for over 5 years with no issues. The enclosure has 2-3 calling males, sometimes at once. In my experience the highlands do well in groups and are relatively bold compared to some imitator and fantastics species I also work with.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Wow.. 10+ frogs.. in such a small space.. Lost for words..


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> Wow.. 10+ frogs.. in such a small space.. Lost for words..


Tijl, I do sincerely respect your opinion on viv size for frogs. Sincerely, and very much. I really do hope you keep providing it to us.

I suspect your knowledge of appropriate viv sizing is based on extensive experience with tincs and Oophaga. Thumbnails are quite different, not only in size but in space usage -- they really are pretty secretive, and when out and about they seem to respect each others' space really well (well, much, much better than leucomelas, which is the only non-thumb I have experience with). I only have a couple years experience with thumbs, and 10 of them in a viv that size, especially if they have all grown up in there together, seems cozy but not at all excessive. I've read of pairs of thumbs in a 12 x 12 x 18 breeding and growing to a group that size without the keeper knowing that there were that many frogs in the viv (they can be very secretive; I've never seen all 4 of my sirensis at once).

I really do not want to sound condescending when I say this, because that is not at all what I'm trying to do. If I am, please do holler at me, and I will apologize.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

You don't have to appolagize for annything? 😄

I have kept and bred benedicta for 6 years so I have personal experience with one species of Ranitomeya tho.

Nevertheless 18 inches is still nothing.. I'd say keep a pair max 3 frogs in that size.. It's just not right for the well being of the animals.. Those are living creatures...

There is not even room for dominant behavior for these frogs so I would have absolutely no idea how these could be doing ok. It feels like this frog's are just kept alive and that's a big difference..

For arguments sake : let's say a healthy 1.1 pair lays clutches of 5 eggs max 2 a month? 
Correct?

That's pretty standard numbers for normal breeding R.Variablis I think..

That would mean 1.1 Will produce +-90 offspring a year, considering 3 month dry seasons and no clutches.. 

That would mean the defenition of 10 healthy frogs or 5 couples (in the best case ofc..) that are doing good, should provide +-900 offspring a year.
But even more realisticly let's say they are not the best breeders and they are not all pairs. My understanding is if this group should still produce around 400 juveniles a year. 
Correct?

I am pretty sure this will not be the case here..

R.Variablis arnt difficult frogs to keep it breed. This does not mean these frogs should not be given the best life possible in captivity..
But that is what I am reading here..

People always tend to give their animals the absolute minimal care and space possible just cause its more convinient for the keepers..

Why don't people focus on giving their animals the most they can?


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## Jand1k (Nov 19, 2019)

Having 2.2 in my current 12"x12"18" and only months of experience I do agree with what Tijl is saying...🤔 

It's difficult isn't it to balance what we can provide for them with our busy lives and for them to feel happy. I definitely don't want them to be there just to live. I want them to be happy. Again, difficult to provide as they've never known the real world and we will never fully understand them. 

I'm just gonna say that for whoever is thinking getting some as pets, or is keeping these as pets already, to always remember that these are living creature and they're a gift to make our life in this world pleasant. Really, it's people's actions that has biggest effect here. But hey, who am I to talk?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Jand1k said:


> Having 2.2 in my current 12"x12"18" and only months of experience I do agree with what Tijl is saying...🤔


Just for reference, four frogs in that viv is ~2 usable gallons/frog; 10 frogs in a 18" skyscraper is ~4 gallons/frog.


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## gladiatorsgi (Sep 26, 2011)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Just for reference, four frogs in that viv is ~2 usable gallons/frog; 10 frogs in a 18" skyscraper is ~4 gallons/frog.


Yep, math is hard for some people. 

@Tijl, I wont waste more than 1 min to respond to this. Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. You sure have time to write 691 novel like posts, educating us all, in the last 15 months. So that's what, 53 per month? Maybe take that time learning about ranitomeya.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Let’s keep this civil. I don’t want to have to close this thread. What works for some people doesn’t work for everyone. If you’re comparing 2.2 to an 12x12x18 , op’s tank is 3 of those tanks! Which would equate to 12 frogs in the same space so if you agree with tij then you’re removing frogs from your tank? Everyone please stay on topic. This is a discussion where the op is asking to learn. Please be helpful or don’t respond. There is no need to be nasty to each other because people do things different. If someone is asking if they should keep 10 terribilis in a 12x12x18 then I’d recommend not doing it. If someone with experience does something that you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean you have to attack them. Some things work and experience can make all the difference. So keep this thread clean and no need to attack. If you don’t agree or have concerns pm the person in question. Thank you!


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## LCBeckett (Dec 20, 2018)

Amazonica wise (the only ones I've kept so I have limited knowledge) I could see 10 fitting in the Small X Tall tank as we have Small Tall with 4 and the useable space in one 30 cm taller would mean they would have many spaces to choose from in a well thought out setup. I think it would need to be a well stepped and broken up space though.


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