# Legal status of D. vanzolinii?



## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Were there ever any legal exports of D. vanzolinii? I know some froggers who say that they have legal animals with CITES paperwork, but is there such a thing? They're such a neat frog that I would love to see established in the hobby.










No, I'm not going to name names.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2007)

I don't believe so. 

From Dendrobates.org: 



> This is a species that has been smuggled in extreme quantities for the past several years. We visited a region where they once had been extremely abundant only to find three individuals in nearly a week of intense searching. They are well known by the locals, and because of their nature to live in groups where host plants are found, it is easy to collect entire populations of them, essentially causing their extirpation. At least in Europe, they are now abundant in captivity from the original stock of illegal imports.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

Actually I've been meaning to update that list, some information has come to me about D. vanzolinii lately that changes its status a bit. Apparently there was a large smuggled shipment that was seized and then donated to Harold Divossen legally. Apparently he got permission to sell their offspring legally, so there are I guess some legal vanzolinii, as long as there is a paper trail to the legal frogs. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the parent frogs were originally smuggled...I still would not buy them.

Evan


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I do not know if these frogs came from that legalized shipment, so in this specific case I can't say much unless the members who have them choose to come forward.

As far as if people should buy these vanzolinii (the legal ones), I would and not just because they've been on my 'dream frog' list almost since I started keeping darts. There should be a financial incentive to breed these frogs and make them more available to the hobby. I don't think there's any doubt that if there were legal vanzolinii freely available that the smuggling would at least slow down because profits would drop. Which would the smugglers rather focus on? Frogs that they could get $30 each for, or frogs that they could get $300 each for? 

In the smuggling thread, auratus and leucomelas were mentioned as being smuggled frogs. Does anyone doubt that if these frogs were not available as captive bred, they would be more expensive and thus more attractive to smugglers? There are quite a few morphs in the hobby that came from smuggled individuals way back in the days of yore. Regina tincs and mint terribilis at least, if my memory recalls correctly.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "the smuggling would at least slow down because profits would drop. Which would the smugglers rather focus on? Frogs that they could get $30 each for, or frogs that they could get $300 each for? "endsnip

Given that auratus is still discovered in shipments of smuggled dart frogs, this argument doesn't hold up. It is more what they think they can 
1) get easily
2) move easily
3) make a profit (now they will maximize profit if they can but as they can still make money on auratus, they are still smuggled). 

Ed


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

My point is, they don't make as much money as they would if auratus were $300 apiece, thus they're not as attractive as other more expensive frogs. The ease of getting and moving the frogs are seperate issues. Given a choice between frogs that were identically easy to get and move, which one do you think they would they be smuggling?


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## Curt61 (Jan 16, 2007)

Hey, those are some very pretty frogs, what Ark is saying makes perfect to me, would you rather steal a porch or a chevy if you could steal both with ease? If these frogs get into the hobby and arn't really expancive,(which I am sure they are) I would love to get some.

Curt.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2007)

> Given a choice between frogs that were identically easy to get and move, which one do you think they would they be smuggling?


They'd choose both.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

If you're going to take the tack of "They're going to smuggle them anyway whether there's legal frogs or not." then what harm would legal vanzolinii do? I can't see any harm. It would just give people who want to own them legally like myself a route to do so.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

Just a thought of mine.

Auratus is found because they are very easy to find next to the pumilio's, they are very prolific. Mostly if they smuggle some animals together with the pumilio's for example. They keep these for personal collections. Because they breed massively. Lets say, you get 200pumilio, what does an extra 10 auratus mean for them? Nothing.
But if they have 4 breeding pairs setup after their travel. Every body can make the sum, think what you could get if you have 4 good breeding couples of Auratus without needing to grow them up and hope for a couple. You've got 4 adult couples that start breeding in no time, and will produce a very large number of eggs

I have no problems with believing that they are only smuggled for personal collections.

But they won't be exported for massive selling like the pumilio's. Because the price is low.

So having more of for example those Vanzolinii in the hobby will lower the price = less smuggling. They'll be smuggled together with others, because those others are still worth $$$. But they won't smuggle 50+ vanzolinii's anymore.

So if they legalise CB animals from those confiscated animals, they made a hughe difference to the numbers that will be smuggled in the future. I'm sure of that. So I still guess it's better to make those animals legal then to put them in zoo's, and keep the price high & have higher number of animals smuggled.


I know this might shock people, I'm not telling smuggling is a good thing, far from that, but the hobby has been given an oppertunity to get this specie legally established in the hobby. Let's show them that we know what we are doing. Smuggling number will drop in no time, I'd bet all my money on that.

And last, I hate to see reports of populations getting whiped because of smuggling, and I admire the people who are working for the Inibico project or who support it! They are doing a great job, I sure hope they'll manage to do everything that they want. To make sure every animals in the wild is safe for the Chyrid virus and to preserve there natural habitat.

And one last final note; Those vanzolinii are legal in most european countries, but guess what, not in Belgium (where I live). I think this is just STUPID! But they just don't accept the papers of Divossen here, even if they where approved by the German Governement. So I hope people don't think every thing is legal here in Europe. In belgium Histrionicus, with 100% correct CITES papers for about 10years ago aren't accepted anymore, don't ask me why but all of the 'legal' histrionicus in the world are considered illegal in Belgium...
In Germany and Denmark they are just weird when it comes to these kind of things, just like there isn't any control at all. But other countries aren't like that.

Grtz,
Thomas


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "My point is, they don't make as much money as they would if auratus were $300 apiece, thus they're not as attractive as other more expensive frogs."endsnip

If it takes a lot of effort to get the more expensive species then they are not as desirable as the easier to aquire species. It is more effort therefore the profit margin for the same risk (the smuggling part) is not as great. 

snip "The ease of getting and moving the frogs are seperate issues. "endsnip

Actually its not. Its all part of the supply and demand chain. If you spend a lot of time and effort to get something to sell then the net profit has to be greater than if you could make the net profit made by selling more of a less expensive item.... 


snip "Given a choice between frogs that were identically easy to get and move, which one do you think they would they be smuggling?"endsnip

Except that they are not the same...


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Mark Pepper may be offering legal Vanzolinii as early as late 2007 or early 2008.

I asked him a week ago about them and he said, "vanzolini will be available early next year/late this year".

Sounds like good news.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I must correct you...that is either great or excellent news!


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## El_Rana (May 29, 2004)

41714049 said:


> Mark Pepper may be offering legal Vanzolinii as early as late 2007 or early 2008.
> 
> I asked him a week ago about them and he said, "vanzolini will be available early next year/late this year".
> 
> Sounds like good news.


O.K. That is something to make me real HAPPY!...certainly, if it's true. :shock:


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

I imagine they will be VERY expensive at first though. I might have to wait a few years until the price drops...


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

you wont' have to wait that long, they breed very well from what i've heard from europe.

it'll be the same with mystis


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

I hope you're right. I gotta get some of these. They are just beautiful.


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## 41714049 (Feb 23, 2006)

Well thats what Mark said... He doesnt seem to be the lying type. So I already asked to be put on the list for some. Keeping fingers crossed.


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