# Ventilation advice



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Please excuse my newb questions here, I've been reading up on different ways of setting up ventilation but I've seen a lot of mixed advice. As of right now I'm trying to finish up a 10g vert I'm building for a pair of thumbnails. I made the tank with a vent on the top of the front panel, about 2 inches tall, going all the way across. I also have a computer fan running inside the tank, 24/7. Day one, I could not keep the humidity up, so I decided to throw duct tape over the vent. Now the humidity is at almost 100 percent and the condensation on the glass is horrible. What should I do to keep a good balance? I'm considering redoing the whole front of the tank... 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

The way the fan is setup is temporary until I figure what to do with the vents. But this is currently the way it's looking.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Frog (Sep 30, 2015)

All of my vivs have no vents. I open them every day to feed so they get fresh air then.


----------



## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

Try just partially covering the vent, and I'd put the fan on a timer and experiment with how long & how often to run it. You need to find the balance between the vent, fan , and misting.


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I sometimes just tape plastic wrap over part of the screen if I am having issues keeping humidity in. Like gope said, you might consider a timer. Unless you have some seriously fussy plants (some orchids fit this bill, as well as some other plants), the air movement won't be necessary all of the time. I would figure out when you plan on doing your misting and set the fan to come on for a half hour or so afterward to clear the front glass. That's all that's needed. One other option is maybe you could use a controller and dial back the speed of the fan?

Mr.Frog, what is the humidity in your tanks? That setup sounds like a recipe for 100% humidity 100% of the time, which is too much. 60-80% is all you should be shooting for. If this is where you are with humidity, I am sorry if I have misunderstood your setup. I have friends who have used a similar setup that have had issues with rotting plant roots, anaerobic substrate conditions, etc. when they kept the humidity too high for too long. There are some other good threads on ventilation that you might want to check out if you use the search function.

Mark


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

How long/often do you recommend leaving the fan on?

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Frog (Sep 30, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> I sometimes just tape plastic wrap over part of the screen if I am having issues keeping humidity in. Like gope said, you might consider a timer. Unless you have some seriously fussy plants (some orchids fit this bill, as well as some other plants), the air movement won't be necessary all of the time. I would figure out when you plan on doing your misting and set the fan to come on for a half hour or so afterward to clear the front glass. That's all that's needed. One other option is maybe you could use a controller and dial back the speed of the fan?
> 
> Mr.Frog, what is the humidity in your tanks? That setup sounds like a recipe for 100% humidity 100% of the time, which is too much. 60-80% is all you should be shooting for. If this is where you are with humidity, I am sorry if I have misunderstood your setup. I have friends who have used a similar setup that have had issues with rotting plant roots, anaerobic substrate conditions, etc. when they kept the humidity too high for too long. There are some other good threads on ventilation that you might want to check out if you use the search function.
> 
> Mark



Honestly I don't worry about humidity that much. All my tanks are like this without a problem. Now seeing this I am going to drill my tips and add vents. Thanks for motivating me to do this


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

That was some good info, thanks mark. I think I'm going to change up my vent a bit, I'm not very happy with how it came out. I read somewhere about a Sherman vent that interested me. Maybe I will do that and redo the door so it's side opening as well. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Of course! I used to think that since these frogs are from the rain forest that they wanted it 100% all the time. I have learned, since reading up on this board, that there are real disadvantages to having 100% humidity. For one thing, as Ed has pointed out multiple times, the frogs can't cool themselves by evaporative cooling if there is no humidity gradient between their skin and the air.

One way to do add a vent to top-access tank is to cut a strip at the back (or, if you setup allows it, the front is even better since it can help with condensation) and to either make a little narrow screen like people use in vertical conversions or just silicone screen to the frame and the remaining glass top. This wouldn't allow you to easily remove the top completely but I haven't missed that very often in my tanks where I have done this. I must admit, though, that all of my tanks where I have done this have had the typical hinged two-piece glass setup where only the front piece of glass tips up and the other half stays in place all the time.

Good luck!

Mark


----------



## Mr.Frog (Sep 30, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> Of course! I used to think that since these frogs are from the rain forest that they wanted it 100% all the time. I have learned, since reading up on this board, that there are real disadvantages to having 100% humidity. For one thing, as Ed has pointed out multiple times, the frogs can't cool themselves by evaporative cooling if there is no humidity gradient between their skin and the air.
> 
> One way to do add a vent to top-access tank is to cut a strip at the back (or, if you setup allows it, the front is even better since it can help with condensation) and to either make a little narrow screen like people use in vertical conversions or just silicone screen to the frame and the remaining glass top. This wouldn't allow you to easily remove the top completely but I haven't missed that very often in my tanks where I have done this. I must admit, though, that all of my tanks where I have done this have had the typical hinged two-piece glass setup where only the front piece of glass tips up and the other half stays in place all the time.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of drilling holes in the top and adding bushings with screen like these 
8136266 - Burnham 8136266 - Black Snap-Bushing HEYCO SB-2000-26, #2400


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Zach, Shermans are super cool, but they require a lot of modifications to incorporate. They are wider and recessed in the designs I have seen. It might be tough to modify your existing setup without having to start from scratch. You can still do that, but I have a lot of tanks that look just like yours and they work great and I don't even have fans in any of them so you have options for humidity control that I don't. I would just experiment with various amounts of the vent covered and play with your fan timing some. I bet you can find the perfect balance without tearing down a perfectly good setup. You already did well with it. I would hate for you to have to junk it when it is very salvageable. Check out Shermans for the next build! Also, I usually see them used with slide-opening setups. I suspect there is a reason for this.

Mark


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Those are cool, Mr.Frog. I would say, though, that you can get away with silicone and a little piece of fiberglass screen. Just put a bead of silicone around the hole and sort of press the screen into it and slide your fingers around it good so that there are no parts of the screen that have a gap in the silicone where a wee frog could escape. I this type of setup on my tanks, too. I think it would work great and it would save you the 85 cents!

Sorry to hijack your thread, Zach.

Mark


----------



## Mr.Frog (Sep 30, 2015)

Encyclia said:


> Those are cool, Mr.Frog. I would say, though, that you can get away with silicone and a little piece of fiberglass screen. Just put a bead of silicone around the hole and sort of press the screen into it and slide your fingers around it good so that there are no parts of the screen that have a gap in the silicone where a wee frog could escape. I this type of setup on my tanks, too. I think it would work great and it would save you the 85 cents!
> 
> Sorry to hijack your thread, Zach.
> 
> Mark


That works too. Sorry Zach for hijacking your thread.


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

You guys are totally fine, I appreciate the ideas. I actually really like the grommets, I think you could make it look really clean and not block all visibility. Looking back at the Sherman vent, I don't think it's going to work for this tank, I'm likely not going the redo the whole tank. I don't even want to move plants honestly. But the vent should be redone, the silicone is already failing in one corner and I don't like the way it turned out. I'm thinking about simply replacing the top vent with a piece of glass the same size, with 3 or 4 holes drilled in it with screen. I may or may not use grommets. As for the fan, I think if I can, changing the fan speeds for different times of the day would be optimal. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ventilation and air movement are related but aren't exactly the same when we are discussing the enclosures. Air movement can occur without ventilation but ventilation can't occur without air movement. Air movement inside a sealed enclosure can prevent pockets of carbon dioxide and to some extent stagnation but it doesn't prevent excessive humidity and temperature buildup. This can only be accomplished by venting the tanks so there is enough air exchange that the tank and the frogs can cool themselves by evaporative cooling. This will also facilitate the drying out of the water on the leaves which helps prevent rotting of bromeliads and other plants. 

To avoid the temperature issues one of the recommendations that has persisted in the hobby is to keep the enclosures at temperature far below what they are exposed to in the wild and in the few that have been studied below the temperature the animals choose for themselves. An example of this is that D. auratus if given the choice will select tadpole deposition sites that are at 78 F. Prior recommendations were to keep the tanks below 75 F as above that temperature it was possible to have deaths due to overheating. This raised the question as to why those conditions in captivity while not resulting in deaths in the wild. One of the main things was the conditions did not allow for ventilation of the enclosures. The high levels of humidity not only prevent evaporative cooling but they also equalized conditions across microniches which also reduces the ability of the frogs to behavioral regulate their body temperature. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks ed, I appreciate the good information. It gave me a lot to think about. 
So, today I made a lot of changes and I'm extremely pleased with the results. I got rid of the vent up top and replaced it with a much cleaner looking piece of lexan with 3/4 inch holes in it, I then pushed grommets with window screen into the holes. The vents turned out awesome and seem to be doing everything they need to do. Also added a latch and ditched the magnets on the door, and put a lower voltage plug on the fan to slow it down a bit. Right now the temp is staying at 76 degrees and humidity is at 88 percent. 








Sorry about the tape, waiting for the epoxy the cure.

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Mr.Frog (Sep 30, 2015)

zachary.t.timoth said:


> Thanks ed, I appreciate the good information. It gave me a lot to think about.
> So, today I made a lot of changes and I'm extremely pleased with the results. I got rid of the vent up top and replaced it with a much cleaner looking piece of lexan with 3/4 inch holes in it, I then pushed grommets with window screen into the holes. The vents turned out awesome and seem to be doing everything they need to do. Also added a latch and ditched the magnets on the door, and put a lower voltage plug on the fan to slow it down a bit. Right now the temp is staying at 76 degrees and humidity is at 88 percent.
> 
> 
> ...



Where did you get those sized grommets?


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

I just picked them up at lowes

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Looks good, Zach. Nice work 

Mark


----------



## Mr.Frog (Sep 30, 2015)

zachary.t.timoth said:


> I just picked them up at lowes
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Great thanks.


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks! I really appreciate all of your guys help I'm still very new with vivs. Oh, I also ordered a voltage controller and a smaller fan. I was hoping for something I could program for different times of the day but those were significantly more expensive. The one I got will do the job and should allow me to fine tune the temp/humidity at the push of a button. Right now my temp is at 83 and humidity 86 percent. Both higher than what I'm shooting for so hopefully the new fan fixes that. Also, my front glass is staying completely clear! 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Excellent! That is a touch high in temp. Does your light physically touch the glass on the top? I dropped the temps in some of my vivs by just putting a folded piece of paper between the metal of the light (they had Jungle Dawn LEDs) and the glass. This dropped the interior temps a few degrees, which is all I needed.

Have you looked at port_plz' thread on Arduino controllers? I know nothing about these, but maybe they could do something like what you wanted to do with the fans?

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/254914-easy-20-arduino-vivarium-controller.html

Keep up the good work!

Mark


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Yeah the light is physically resting on top of the glass, it's putting out a little more heat than I expected from a CFL. I will try using some paper under the light. 
That controller is way awesome! Unfortunately it's way over my head, that guy has got to be a computer programmer or something. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Yeah, Nate is some sort of rocket scientist ;-) I am betting he would answer questions if you were interested in getting started, though. He offered to help me and he knew for sure what he was getting into there...

Just to be clear, I put the folded pieces of paper under the edges of the light/hood/whatever. I am sure that little rubber feet would do the same thing and look a lot better, too.

Mark


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Encyclia said:


> Excellent! That is a touch high in temp.


Hmm, I wouldn't consider it getting a touch high until he goes over 80 F at the substrate level of the enclosure. If the measurement is not at the substrate level then I would argue that his tank is actually on the cool side. Somewhat of a stratification of temperatures will allow the frogs to thermoregulate themselves which can have an important role in things like immune response. 

Some comments 

Ed


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

I put those rubber feet under the light to elevate slightly over the glass, the change was minimal unfortunately. Still staying around 80.. The probe is located a few inches from the bottom so actually I bet it's a few degrees warmer in the upper portion of the tank. I didn't even think about it until you mentioned it. I'm going to hold off on messing with it further until I get the new fan and controller. 
In other news, my plant order will be here today! 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

zachary.t.timoth said:


> I put those rubber feet under the light to elevate slightly over the glass, the change was minimal unfortunately. Still staying around 80.. The probe is located a few inches from the bottom so actually I bet it's a few degrees warmer in the upper portion of the tank. I didn't even think about it until you mentioned it. I'm going to hold off on messing with it further until I get the new fan and controller.
> In other news, my plant order will be here today!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


Woohoo!  With that clarification from Ed, it sounds like you may be just fine with the temps they way they are. Thanks, Ed!

Mark


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Plants came in! I love the way it turned out  I ended up not using 2 of the bromeliads I ordered... oh well, guess it's time for another tank lol

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Way to go! Looks good! Just a couple of things you might want to consider. If that's a brom planted in the substrate at the bottom, you might want to get its roots up out of the substrate. I can't tell from the picture if that's a brom or not. Also those air plants (Tillandsias) that you have mounted downwards at the back tend to like to dry out between mistings. I tend to put those close to vents in my tanks or they get too wet and rot. I am not sure how well they will do that far away from your vents. Maybe your fancy fans can help out with that situation, too  Regardless, I wouldn't mist them much if you are misting by hand.

Keep up the good work 

Mark


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Thanks! Yeah the one on the very bottom is cryptanthus, which is terrestrial rather than epithetic. Grows great in the substrate in another tank.. I read somewhere that mounting tillandsia upside down initially will help keep water from collecting and causing it to rot. Not sure if that's right or not, do you suggest I flip them? I've never had tillandsia before so I have no clue. Hopefully the fan will be beneficial to the plants! I guess we will find out how it all works out. Thanks again for the help!

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Yeah, I wondered about that being a cryptanthus. Mine are all mounted up high in my tanks where there is more light and they get super pink so I am not used to a green one  That seems like a good tip on the air plants upside down, but I don't know enough to know whether that will help or not. Maybe someone wiser in the ways of Tillandsia will chime in 

Mark


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Yeah I got the cryptanthus at lowes on the discount rack, was completely green when I got it. There's a little bit of pink coming back to it.  I will agree though, i think being mounted up higher would help it out alot. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I think they can be just fine without being green. I like the look of them when they are pink, but they don't need that kind of light to be healthy, in my experience.

Mark


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

Kind of random, but what humidity gauges do most people use? I'm starting to question the accuracy of the one I have. 

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------



## zachary.t.timoth (Jul 12, 2015)

So, today I decided to go buy an infrared thermometer to measure the surface temperatures in the tank as well as gradient heat. I'm kind of surprised at the differences I got between ambient temperature and surface temperature of the substrate and some of the plants. I am getting 69 degrees in many areas of the substrate and a good gradient up to 78 degrees on the top of the highest plant. My ambient temperature is at exactly 75 degrees right in the middle of the tank. Just thought I'd share because I thought it was interesting. Also are these Temps normal for most species of dart frogs?

Sent from my SM-G386T using Tapatalk


----------

