# Mud baths



## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

I started following dart frog posts on Instagram and saw some of Fahad's terribilis photos with them enjoying "mud baths" (petri dishes filled with nice-looking gray mud). I hadn't heard of this before so now I'm curious - are there any other species that enjoy a mud bath? Is it a hydration thing that they enjoy? And what mud do you use/make?

I know my azureus hang out in a monkey pot filled with moist sphagnum periodically, and I'm guessing it's a similar thing?

@Fahad I'd love to hear more info! (And i love your ig photos!)


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Thanks! I always have my phone on me in the frog room, so I fire off snapshots often. Some are better than others but it's useful to compile a narrative instead of looking for perfect shots.

There are different kinds of mineral-bearing muds you can purchase or mix yourself, but I use Montmorrillonite clay sold for Koi.

Besides simply experiencing a different stimulus in their environment, the frogs are exposed to negative ions and minerals. It's hard to quantify but they do seem to have a bit more of a 'glow' when they have it regularly, and they have all been observed to go out of their way for it.

The practice is something I actually stole from European keepers and so far I've observed terribilis, leucomelas and auratus to utilize it as well as large Oophaga species in other keepers' collections like @Tijl 's.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

I have a koi vendor near me, I'll have to pick up some clay and see if any of mine like it!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ime all the frogs hang out in the claybaths from time to time. Larger species more than 'thumbnails'


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

Fahad said:


> Besides simply experiencing a different stimulus in their environment, the frogs are exposed to negative ions and minerals. It's hard to quantify but they do seem to have a bit more of a 'glow' when they have it regularly, and they have all been observed to go out of their way for it.


What anions are you referring to?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

DPfarr said:


> What anions are you referring to?


I read a paper that's bookmarked somewhere in my browser -- let me hunt it down.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

@DPfarr can't find the bookmark but I'm sure I can hunt down the reference again. At any rate, the minerals in wet Bentonite clay (both locality specific Montmorillonite and Bentonite clays are Smectites) become negatively charged. These claims are common on various alternative health sites but they're backed up by other sources including winemakers (in another life I almost went for my International Sommelier's Guild diploma but took a U-turn).


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Fahad said:


> Thanks! I always have my phone on me in the frog room, so I fire off snapshots often. Some are better than others but it's useful to compile a narrative instead of looking for perfect shots.
> 
> There are different kinds of mineral-bearing muds you can purchase or mix yourself, but I use Montmorrillonite clay sold for Koi.
> 
> ...


This is compelling.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

At least one of the tincs is pleased with the experiment!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If I may make a suggestion of seating the petri a little deeper into the ground and perhaps adding a pebble or 2 to the mud set up? Ive finessed petri water puddle applications for seating and it adds an ergo pizzaz. I think it would serve same. 

Its completely optional as pictured by the azureus, clearly not needed, but blending dish margin into the terra creates a subtle use improvement better witnessed than described. 

It makes it more fun for them.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Some years ago i had a conversation with a Ukrainian herpetologist who described seasonal gatherings of a frog species on mudflats. He showed me a photo, laterally flattened squat anurans pressing themselves distinctively into the mud. I lost touch with him and have tried to find/recall sp; our conversation was rushed and punctuated by noise and interruption. But it always stuck in my mind and I still try to find data on it. 

If one species of frog did this, i wondered, it seemed possible that other sp would.


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## macg (Apr 19, 2018)

I have had success with the substrate clay recipe (unbaked) from pumilo pressed into a coconut half and moistened with water. It seems to last for months to years. Just keep adding water as needed. The clay doesn't seem to foul, and clean up crews are frequently consuming from it.

It also looks quite natural in my opinion.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Tiny wet/dry dung busters. Cool.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

I like the coco half idea, I may have to try that route now that I've verified that the tincs like it (the SIs and leucs haven't checked their petri dishes out yet, although I did just move the leucs into a larger viv so they may need more time to settle in)


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)




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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I want to work this in my husbandry but have concerns safety, origin, metals etc.

I dont know where to get the good stuff. My fantasy of virginal media from native localities does not look like its going to happen.

If a person could share with me source of what they have used long term, i would be very grateful.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Kmc said:


> I want to work this in my husbandry but have concerns safety, origin, metals etc.
> 
> I dont know where to get the good stuff. My fantasy of virginal media from native localities does not look like its going to happen.
> 
> If a person could share with me source of what they have used long term, i would be very grateful.


I've been using this for about 2 years at most? I use a brand called Microbe Lift that packages and sells Montmorillonite clay for koi ponds.

There are other similar clays sold for human consumption that likely have very similar make-up.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Ah Thank you.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

MicrobeLift is the brand I bought as well, off Amazon


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Any thought on whether 'MicrobeLift' or RedArt clay (pumilo recipe) would be more beneficial?


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## Vanadium Cobalt (Jul 19, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Any thought on whether 'MicrobeLift' or RedArt clay (pumilo recipe) would be more beneficial?


Been looking at clay baths too. What about this recipe for Springtail cultures? Culturing springtails on clay


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Vanadium Cobalt said:


> Been looking at clay baths too. What about this recipe for Springtail cultures? Culturing springtails on clay


 That's the pumilo recipe mentioned here:



macg said:


> I have had success with the substrate clay recipe (unbaked) from pumilo pressed into a coconut half and moistened with water. It seems to last for months to years. Just keep adding water as needed. The clay doesn't seem to foul, and clean up crews are frequently consuming from it.
> 
> It also looks quite natural in my opinion.


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## Vanadium Cobalt (Jul 19, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> That's the pumilo recipe mentioned here
> 
> Yes, I think that is the one I will be trying. Found a supplier for the Redart clay in the UK also.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

@Fahad , have you used the microbe lift montmorillonite clay as springtail culture media?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

fishingguy12345 said:


> @Fahad , have you used the microbe lift montmorillonite clay as springtail culture media?


On my ever-growing list of Things To Do. I have a small break from work this week, I'll give it a shot and report back. I still have Jungle Jewel Exotics' calcium bearing clay from a while back that I have yet to crack open and try. Maybe it's time for a Pepsi Challenge. 

Pretty sure I just carbon dated myself there. 😐


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Fahad said:


> On my ever-growing list of Things To Do. I have a small break from work this week, I'll give it a shot and report back. I still have Jungle Jewel Exotics' calcium bearing clay from a while back that I have yet to crack open and try. Maybe it's time for a Pepsi Challenge.
> 
> Pretty sure I just carbon dated myself there. 😐


Please let me know the results. I have some of the microbe lift on the way and will try it with springtail cultures.

PS, I know the Pepsi challenge reference... Maybe I'm aging myself too


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## Frogmanjared (Jul 17, 2020)

fishingguy12345 said:


> @Fahad , have you used the microbe lift montmorillonite clay as springtail culture media?


I started a test 16oz culture. It has been producing well. It appears to have less than the calcium bearing substrate clay I’ve used in another of the same size. But it’s hard to say because it’s a light color and more difficult to see the tiny babies. It’s fairly new and I’ve harvested from it multiple times. I think the last was a few days ago.

I plan on making a larger size to compare on a different scale. I have 5 pounds of the stuff, what else to do with it!?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Clay arrived and had been made into a clay bath for one tank (Ameerega pepperi) , and I've started a springtail culture on clay as well.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Within hours of having put the clay bath in, I had a frog already using it.


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