# Large vivarium project!!



## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

Im in the process of constructing my first vivarium. Any and ALL advise is very welcome... I don't believe in doing anything on a small scale. With that said, the housing is already constructed out of 1/2" Cell Cast Acrylic. 
48" Wide x 48" tall x 24" deep. I based the design off of a similar one I saw on Black Jungles website in the gallery section. If you go on that site you will see my inspiration and guide. I plan on using the same materials:
Malaysian driftwood, Great Stuff, 100% silicone, coco bedding, Water ways at many different locations, etc....

I plan on using Sun Systems New Wave T5 48" 4 bulb system for lighting.
Do I need to heat??

Any ideas??
Lighting, pump, ways to move water, electric cords, etc...
Helpful links.....

Trying to get ready before Reptile and Breeder Show in Daytona by the end of August.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Even though you dont believe in doing anything on a small scale, getting practice will only help you avoid mistakes...Problems will come proportional to the size of you build, so beware. I would advise everyone who is jumping into the hobby with 2 feet and no cord, to step back and try a few different building methods on smaller tanks. 

The co-co fiber/silicone method is fine, except it WILL degrade quickly on a drip wall. I have a larger viv with a waterfall, and after 10 months of being in service I still find a lot of peices of co-co in my water feature. I dont care how well the silicone has a grip on it as you are building, it eventually fails under constant water flow. I now have bare spots, and no way of fixing them because I cannot relocate my frog until another tank is finished.

There are many ways to have a water feature withstand the test of time, but I dont believe the silicone method is the way to go. Concrete, would be advisable, or a Titebond mixture. I tried using the Titebond mixture over the foam on my last build...Hard as a rock after 2 weeks of being submerged. It costs a lot more, but you wont have bald silicone spots after 1 year.

And I forgot to add....Trying to complete a vivarium of this size, within 1 month, is very unrealistic. Being as this is your first viv, everything will take 3 times longer then you think. Mistake will be made, and changes take time. Most peoples grow-in times are much longer then your entire estimated build time. Definately not the way to go imo. I would slow down and do a lot of research, take your time building it perfectly as you imagine it. I might sound like a jerk right now, but you will thank me in the long run. I wish I had someone telling me this when I started my first large build.


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

@ grimm about the time frame.

I completed my first viv "46 gal bowfront" and it looks amazing imo. it took me about 5 days to complete.

you can see it in the forum.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Thats great....but his viv is a wopping 240 Gallons, and seems like he has come pretty ambitious/complicated ideas. IMO the nicest vivs end up having the best planning, and execution over time.


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

I don't take anything personal. Im seeking peoples advice.
I hear what you have to say and agree on many levels.
I have spent months doing research and feel confident in my abilities.

I have both silicone AND Titebond on hand, plastic and ceramic planting pots
among many other pieces and parts to choose from when its time to construct. 

My idea for the water is to flow over the pieces of driftwood placed throughout the vivarium on many levels.
The coco bedding is being used to cover the exposed Great Stuff. 

How about lighting for plants, darts, heating yes or no, suggestions for setting up for future maintenance issues....

Heres one for the experienced:
If I have a submersible pump inside moving water up to top of vivarium into a distribution manifold, How do I run the tubing, pump cord to the top and be able to remove in the future in case of pump failure or a clogged line?
Keep in mind the entire back will be covered in layers of Great Stuff.

I thought about running a 1" pvc pipe bottom to top and run everything inside of that.

Helpful links, photos, ideas, etc...

Thanks


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## Adamrl018 (Jun 18, 2010)

what i did with my tank, is made a screen box around the pumps and lid on top, covered the top of the box with a thin layer of GS. very unlikely that you would get a clog if there is no way for debris to get into the box. and if you had a failure then just cut back the thin layer of GS to access the box.


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks for the idea, I'll take them all. Duly noted....


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

If you're going to run mechanicals (i.e. power cord for submersible pumps) through a pipe, I suggest using 1 1/2" PVC. I found the hard way last week that it isn't easy to bend a cord at the plug through a 1" PVC section (as one day you WILL have to repair/replace the pump). Look for some cork bark tubes to cover the PVC in exposed areas.

For your water tubing, use fairly rigid tubing (esp. if it is to be encapsulated in foam or concrete. You don't want a water line to collapse. If you are planning on building a drip wall like on the Black Jungle website--be sure to use a proper manifold for your tubing. See: No. AD6, Adjustable Dripper, 6 Out Sprinkler Drip Head - AD6 at The Home Depot . Use a 1/2"MPT x barb (whatever tubing size) to connect this part to the outflow tubing from your pump. Be sure to keep this part in an area that is reasonably easy to access (i.e.--you don't have to disassemble anything to reach it. It's best to set up the "hardscaping" in the vivarium and run this for a while and adjust the valves as needed prior to "finishing" the tank. Over a couple of weeks, the flow WILL change--and will need adjustment.

Be sure your pump will push enough water to the height of the tank. You will want a fountain or waterfall pump if you're going over 2' up the back with your water feature. Remember, if the pump is loud to you, it will be very loud for the inhabitants inside an enclosed box.

A sump box for the pump is a necessity! As stated before--keep easy direct access. A nice piece of flat slate will also work for a lid!

Lighting--4' is a lot of depth. With 4x T-5's, you're still going to be very limited on the plants that will grow at the bottom of that enclosure. You'll want to look for plants like _Calathea sp._, _Syngonium wendlandii, S. rayii,_ and some _Selaginella sp._. 

Heat--you most likely will not need to heat the enclosure. Normal house temp's are fine for any PDF (65F-80F). Most people like their house in the 70's--so that shouldn't be an issue (unless you live someplace where your house temp's drop lower than that overnight). Vivariums will usuallly stay within a couple of degrees of the house temperature. With a water feature in that size enclosure, and with 4x T-5's above--you will find that during "daylight" hours the top of your vivarium will be a little warmer than the room air temp, while the lower levels will be about equal with the house. 

Planters--be sure to have a way for any planter areas to drain--or at least keep them at an angle. If you don't, water can collect in a planter in a background--and can "drown" the root system. Extra planters in a concrete background are a good thing! Even if you don't plant them initially, it will give plants another place to root in as they grow.

Take your time. While I know it would be great to have this up and running by the Daytona show, pushing to finish quickly can lead to mistakes--and you may find something at the show that "would have been perfect" for the tank. If you're planning on buying frogs at the show--they'll need to be quarrantined for about 30-45 days, so you'll have a little extra time for the finishing touches. Also, let your plants root in for a few weeks prior to adding frogs. Some thing may not make it, and others need a chance to root in prior to the addition of moving leaf weights.

Good luck with the project, and keep us updated with pics of your progress.


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

WOW!! and THANK YOU Is all I can say about the last post.
This is the information I have been seeking. 
I am totally open to any and ALL suggestions and ideas.

Lighting: open to suggestions. 
I went to the local Hydroponic store to do research on the light system. 
Of course they are geared towards growing other plants however, they have great fixtures. 

Pump: I have a couple Little Giant fountian pumps. I haven't tried them out on height or noise. Any other sugestions?

Heating the environment? no research here...

Plantings: I haven't even started on this. I have seen a lot of great ideas however, I'm not real sure what would work best for the environment.

I live in Orlando Florida and look forward every year to the show in Daytona.
Yes, you are right on spot about not rushing my project because there is always something new and interesting at that show. 

I was totally unaware of the quarantine process ot time for the frogs. 

I will post photos and keep an update on this project for all interested parties.

GREAT information and thanks again. If and when you feel like it please pass along more ideas and wisdom. Will you be attending the Daytona show?

I have put a LOT of time and money in this project and don't expect it to end any time soon. No worries on either.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

The lighting is for the plants, the frogs just need a "cycle" of day and night. Where they live on the rainforest floor there is very little light. Many of the plants we choose to decorate a vivarium with either reside as epiphytes higher in the canopy, along the edge of watercourses/clearings where more light penetrates, or at higher altitudes where the canopy isn't as dense--hence the plants need more light than many PDF's natural environment.

Make sure you allow some room to keep your lights a couple of inches above the top of the vivarium to keep from building up too much heat at the top of the enclosure.

Another thing to plan for is air circulation. Without any air circulation, the humidity in the air will "cling" to plant leaves--and many plants need their leaves to dry between watering/misting. You will, however, need to keep your humidity between 75%-100% in the vivarium for the frogs.

Little Giant makes some pretty reliable fountain pumps. I suggest cutting some tubing about the max height you want water in the vivarium, and attach it to the pump. Submerge the pump in a 5 gal. bucket of water outside and turn it on while holding the tubing straight up. This will give you an idea about the amount of flow at "head height". Simultaneously, you'll have a chance to hear how much noise the pump makes while in operation. 

If you're in Orlando, you won't need to heat your vivarium--just make sure it's in the air conditioning! Like I say, PDF's like temp's that humans do--keep it between 65F and 80F!

Plantings are a matter of personal taste, experience, and budget. I'm a professional horticulturist, and rare plant collector--so I view my vivariums as show pieces for plants that I otherwise could not grow in Florida's varying climate. There are many plants that, while a little more common, grow very well in vivariums and can create a lush "rainforest" look without breaking the budget. Some people also choose to plant their vivariums as a "biotope"--with plants from the same region as the frogs that inhabit the vivarium. This is a really fun idea, and a challenge--but might not be something for a first vivarium....

As others have said, it might not be a bad idea to get some "practice" prior to final construction of your big vivarium. I built my "showpiece" vivarium as my 4th, and still wish I had waited. I've since found things that I could have done better. You may want to spend $15-$20 and pick up a 10 gallon aquarium and build a practice background. This will give you a feel for the materials, how they work, and look for improvement room prior to working on your expensive show enclosure. You can use this as a quarrantine tank for new frogs (so you haven't "wasted" the money).

There are some other things you'll need to do: Use the "Search" tool here on the board, and read about culturing Fruit Flys (FF's), culturing isopods, quarrantine, and fecal tests. 

With new frogs, you will want to quarrantine them for a minimum of 30 days in a smaller, fairly plain enclosure. Give the frogs a place to hide, place a feeding station (small dish/bottle lid with a piece of fruit--like banana in it) to keep flies in an easy to access place for the frogs--and not climbing on the frogs. It is *highly recommended* that you collect a fecal sample and have it tested to be sure your new frogs don't have any parasites. The last thing you want is to introduce animals into a large enclosure to find that they have a medical issue--that will require dismantling and sterilizing a large enclosure. Order some fruit fly culturing supplies now, and start getting food ready. It takes a little time to get things "just right" with raising flies. You'll also want to order some springtails--these small insects will help "clean" up the frog deposits, mold, and decomposing leaves in a vivarium. They also serve as an additional food source for your frogs. They'll need to be in the enclosure well before the frogs so they can get started breeding prior to the frogs gobbling them all up!

Read the care sheets on the different species. There are several species that would make excellent use of your large vivarium. One of the simplest to keep is Dendrobates leucomelas. They have a beautiful call, are fairly bold, and will climb when the space is available (to make use of the height). Leucomelas can also be kept in a "colony" or group. Many Dendrobates auratus morphs will also make use of the height, but they can be a little more "shy" than the Leucs. While I have not raised them myself, others here post that Adelphobates galactonotus are also a frog that will do well in a group and make use of a tank with plenty of floor and vertical space.
Of course, you could also keep a number of thumbnails like Ranitomeya imitator in a space this size. Imitators are great frogs: bold, nice call, vibrant colors. The only down-side is that they are lightning fast--and can easily escape if you have the slightest gap in an enclosure.

The important thing is to settle on a species you like--and keep *only one morph of one species* in the enclosure. Do a search here on "mixing" or "mixing species" here for more details. You can build more vivarium later for other species (and you will!).

Welcome to the hobby! I sent you a Private Message as well. Feel free to ask any questions. If I can't answer them, I'll point you to someone who can.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

So its September now...Lets see those finished tank pics!


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

Took some good advice and built a smaller enclosure to use for quarantine and practice. Large enclosure is coming along well. should have the coco fibre going on the GS this weekend. I have changed direction many times since my last post. 
Alasdair has been extremly helpful and I was able to meet him at the Daytona Breeders Expo. 
I have been taking many photos along the way and plan on sharing them once I get the fibre on and stand it upright.

Thanks for your interest and stay tuned.


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

YES, HERE IT IS SEPTEMBER AND WHERE IS MY VIVARIUM PROJECT?
After many weeks and changes, here is where I am at. Please take into consideration this is my first vivarium.

























































I hope this worked. If not I'll try it again another time.
I have a lot more photos of all the stages, pieces, parts, etc...


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

Looking good, Dave. Are you going to go with a false bottom, or using hydroton?


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

False bottom. The way I have it designed, the entire bottom will be filled with about six inches of water. I plan on putting a few tropical fish in that area.
I have an external filter system that draws from the bottom and feeds the drip wall.
I have 4" stands for the base to rest on, "MATALA"
Then build up from there.
I will post more photos soon that shows more of the pieces and parts
as well as sources.


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## dendrothusiast (Sep 16, 2010)

that's your first man? your doing an awesome job.

i was about that far with a similar size project until it caught on fire back in july. keep the pics coming! im sure there are many other people eager to see your final result too!


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## ClintonJ (May 11, 2009)

Subscribed! Keep those pics coming! I've got a big viv, though not as big as this, in the works too. Yours looks great!


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

Thanks for the encouragement. I really have enjoyed putting this together.
Here are a couple more pics to show you where I'm at now. I moved the project indoors over the weekend. I placed the lights on top to see my progress. I'm really pleased with it so far. 

Right now I'm toying with what to do for the bottom. I have a free form piece of Matala covered in weed block resting on 4"pvc pipe covered in small natural gravel. 
The idea here is to have a land mass that can be viewed from above and
tropical fish in the water below. Remember I have a canister filter feeding the entire drip wall.

Notice in the first PIC the reclaimed teak wood table I had made specifically for this project.

Stay tuned for more pics. Please excuse the photo quality. My camera is on 
vacation with another family member.

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz310/daauerbach/353.jpg

http://i838.photobucket.com/albums/zz310/daauerbach/351.jpg


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## vivbulider (Jan 23, 2010)

Very nice I'm buliding a tank the same size I hope mine is half as nice as yours


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

@vivbuilder.... Yours are always nice lol... they mae me jealous =(

Just want to make a quick suggestion if you read this on time.... If you use PVC to hold the eggcrate up for the false bottom CUT it to allow water to fill into the gap.... I found out that pvc under waterpressure weakens fast =( my 65gal collapsed in a move and I was forced to rebuild the whole thing... this time with a much simpler water feature =P


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## DanConnor (Apr 12, 2009)

A couple years ago I built one exactly that size from cell cast 1/2 inch acrylic. Over about 6 months the desire of the acrylic became stronger than the quality of my seams- which I thought were good. One seam after another failed- and eventually the 3 inches of water under the false bottom dumped on the floor. 

I think the problem was my router cuts weren't smooth enough to make a tight bond. Was my first acrylic project. But the doors warped badly too- not sure what I could have done about that.


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## DanConnor (Apr 12, 2009)

Sorry, I meant to say "the desire of the acrylic to warp."

I thought my plumbing system worked pretty well though and would use it again: I had 3 holes drilled in the back. The was a pump and inline heater sitting underneath in the cabinet. This delivered water to a creek, and ran back out a hole under the false bottom. The third hole was a pipe that maintained water level, and drained to a bucket. As the misting system delivered a bit of excess water to the system, the bucket would fill at that rate- I only had to empty it ever week or so. So it was a slow automatic water change to the system.


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)

Hopefully I won't have the same problem with the seams getting weak.
I would have to agree with you about the cuts making the seams weak.
I did a lot of research before proceeding forward. Accuracy of cuts seemed
to be an important factor in insuring the strength and integrity of the seams.
With that being said I had a local acrylic fabricator make my cuts with a laser cutter. Quite an amazing piece of equipment.

Here are a couple of pics I took Monday morning. 
I mounted the five fans on the top and if all goes well I will mount the spray heads this weekend. I have made really good progress and hope to be adding water the following weekend. Once complete, I will do a complete DIY with sources, pics, etc...

I am so pleased with this project I am contemplating making an enclosure the size of a small room. One you can actually walk inside and really be a part of.

Here are the pics:


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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)




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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)




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## david64 (Aug 7, 2010)




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## BOOSHIFIED (Jun 23, 2009)

any update?


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## AaronAcker (Aug 15, 2007)

Very interested in seeing this one completed!


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

very nice!

What exactly is going on with that land area? (I'm assuming its land area?) If you are using a liner, how exactly will the soil drain....and if the soil is draining directly into your fish area, how will you prevent murky water?


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

We definitely want an update


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## Tex22seg (Dec 3, 2010)

What will be living in this " kingdom"


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