# Sex my vanzoliniis please? :)



## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Good evening, all!

I have a bit of a conundrum. I have twos of frogs labeled as proven pairs, and was hoping to identify who is who. Could you guys help me identify which frog is which? I have been listening for calls and such, and thus far, I have not heard any, but they are also fairly new acquisitions as well. First up is my vanzolinii pair (There is another thread about my tarapoto pair asking the sane thing. Thank you in advance for the help!

Vanzolinii A:









Vanzolinii B:









Melody


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

Looks like A is Male and B is female. It is hard to tell from that angle though. A good profile shot or side by side shot would make the ID easier.

Kevin


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Melody if one is bigger than the other that would be you female, in thumbs females are usually longer and wider than males.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Thanks for all of the responses. I'll be honest, with respect to my vanzolinis, they look very similar to me. While neither have officially called as of yet, I can say that upon hearing other vanzo calls, one of the frogs approached the source of the call and stomped its foot a couple of times, listening intently and posed as if to call, and the other one stood up and appeared to be prepping to call other the other vanzo came into site, and then proceeded to hunker down and appear to just 'listen'. 

I took some updated pictures - my apologies on the quality, but my cell phone was not being cooperative in getting me decent pictures. I am hoping these pictures will give everyone a clearer example for sexing purposes, as to me, they look identical.

Vanzo A again:

















































Vanzo B again:

































There is serious question as to whether this is an actual pair or not - would appreciate any help in helping me figure out if this is indeed a pair, which I am fearing is not. Thanks again, everyone!

Melody


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

A tip I received from very helpful members on the board (thank you, you all know who you are) is to try separating them. Play your calls once they're separated and it may help them be bold enough to call aloud instead of doing that little macho pounce they do when they are a male but still too shy to call in fear of being wrestled about. If you have a male it may call as soon as it's separated which is what happened to me, mine were all a year or older before calling though. Also I bought 5 and 4 turned out to be males :/ A lot of times it seems males/females are similar in size compared to other thumbs and often male heavy too. 

Kevin your male and female were similar in size weren't they because I know we talked of how most of my males were very femininely shaped.

Best of Luck and I hope you have a pair


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

I attempted that yesterday, actually and after a few hours, had to move them back into their vivs... neither called when separated into deli cups in different rooms, nor when a call was played for them. There was interest in the call, whether it be approaching the sound source to the best of their ability, or sitting up a bit more straight, but no official calls yet.


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

I actually had to wait several days before they were comfortable enough to call and some took even longer, maybe even a month or 2. It's all about patience and I'll be the first to say it is so hard to wait and see the outcome for something as exciting as having a pair. 

Good Luck



msb5446 said:


> I attempted that yesterday, actually and after a few hours, had to move them back into their vivs... neither called when separated into deli cups in different rooms, nor when a call was played for them. There was interest in the call, whether it be approaching the sound source to the best of their ability, or sitting up a bit more straight, but no official calls yet.


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

I agree. Normally I wouldn't be too anxious - there is just some serious concern on whether this is indeed a pair or not, which is why I am a bit anxious. Was really hoping these guys would give me a clearer answer a bit sooner (by these guys, I mean the froggies) so I can verify if I was indeed 'had' with their purchase as I am fearing. 

Labelled online as a sexed pair that was calling but not breeding/no eggs at 14 months old, and was later sold to me as a 'very proven pair' that has been laying eggs/tads. 

Melody


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

That is a whole different ballgame, I really hope you didn't get burned. Hopefully some other member will chime in and help you out because I can only give you from my experience. If you are that worried you may want to contact your seller now though.

Hope everything works out okay


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

That's where my concern lies right now, KC3, hence my 'urgency' in trying to identify sexes. Forgive the lazy copy and paste here, but I got into a bit more detail under my tarapoto posting and don't want to have to retype it again, heh... here is what I posted under that thread to better explain the reason behind my 'urgency in sexing':

*snip*

I was trying to handle this in a somewhat discreet manor, but unfortunately, I am not sure how to do this without looking like a complete buffoon anymore. These frogs, along with my pair of vanzolinis were purchased from a seller who I have later found out is very questionable to say the least, and depending on the response I receive in my pm to this seller, will dictate what I openly discuss versus pm. I do understand everything regarding the possibility of stress and environmental change being a factor that could potentially cause a known pair to cease breeding, and other factors as well. The problem lies in the fact that I am seriously suspicious of being lied to about these being a 'very proven pair', let alone even a 'sexed pair' after a trail of lies from this seller is being discovered. Friends of mine were bs'ed to about their purchases, which between that, information I learned through further investigating, as well as observing my frogs, has led me to seriously question whether I too, was had. Short of talking froggie-eese to them and getting themselves to tell me whether they are male or female, I am trying to do what I can to verify sexes in as soon as possible so that I can pursue action, if necessary against the seller for misrepresenting their frogs to me. I am already aware these frogs were not the seller's own breeding stock as initially claimed by the seller, so I know I was already lied to there. So now the question is is if these two are even a pair at all. I can wait for eggs and such - that is fine. I just want to be sure these two are indeed a pair and not just two males as I am beginning to suspect here. I hope this clarifies what this thread is for. While I would love to give these guys weeks/months to let me know on their terms, it makes it very difficult to pursue anything against the seller if I handle this several weeks/months after the purchase. My apologies if this response comes off as harsh, I am just livid at the possibility that I shelled out good money that I had to scrape together as it stood for frogs that were most likely not what I paid for. Thanks again, all.

*snip*

Hope this makes things a bit clearer for everyone as to why I am not just patiently waiting and giving them time to let them do their thing on their own terms.

Melody


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

KC3 said:


> Kevin your male and female were similar in size weren't they because I know we talked of how most of my males were very femininely shaped.


Yes, my pair is close enough in size that you really need to see them side-by-side. Honestly, the additional pics don't give me any better idea of sexes. The method mentioned by Kyle (KC3) is the best way I've been able to be 100% sure of the sexes. Male vanzos seem to call often when housed alone. But as he mentioned, this will take at least a few days and possibly a few months until the frogs become comfortable enough to call. Submissive males will likely not call in the presence of a dominant male. You will most likely have to separate them the get calling out of both if they are male. If only one calls and you are sufficiently satisfied the other isn't going to call, reintroduce them and you may start to see courtship.

Any guesses made at the sexes at this point wouldn't be a guarantee anyway. Calling, eggs, fighting, and courting are the only guarantee (and even that is debatable). 

Thanks,
Kevin


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## KC3 (Sep 12, 2012)

If you are this questionable now and you already know you've been lied to once then I would assume your suspicion may be correct. The only thing I can say for myself is I would not wait weeks or months and act now if you are truly this concerned. It seems as though you have the right to be if not only you but friends have been lied to already no matter how big or small. That's just what I would do though.

Kevin and I have talked a bit about this since 3 of my vanzos were of his froglets. Some of my males have only called one time when separated which I saw with my own two eyes and know for a fact they are males. But since I have so many others calling all throughout the day I've yet to see them call again. I waited a 9-10 months to see this even though many people say theirs have called at 5-6 months it certainly was not the case for me. This is another reason why I suggest you do something while there may be still time only because Kevin is right again that there is no sure way to tell unless you have calling males, eggs, ect...

I wish you the best



khoff said:


> Yes, my pair is close enough in size that you really need to see them side-by-side. Honestly, the additional pics don't give me any better idea of sexes. The method mentioned by Kyle (KC3) is the best way I've been able to be 100% sure of the sexes. Male vanzos seem to call often when housed alone. But as he mentioned, this will take at least a few days and possibly a few months until the frogs become comfortable enough to call. Submissive males will likely not call in the presence of a dominant male. You will most likely have to separate them the get calling out of both if they are male. If only one calls and you are sufficiently satisfied the other isn't going to call, reintroduce them and you may start to see courtship.
> 
> Any guesses made at the sexes at this point wouldn't be a guarantee anyway. Calling, eggs, fighting, and courting are the only guarantee (and even that is debatable).
> 
> ...


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## msb5446 (Apr 7, 2013)

Thank you - and thanks for the information regarding your vanzo experience. I am in the process of doing just that, actually. I have pm'ed the seller and depending on if/what his response is this evening to dictate how I pursue things. I've already spoken to local authorities who have advised me of my rights and will gladly pursue legal action if this situation is not rectified. I don't tolerate liars or being lied to. Hopefully it wont come down to that, but time will time soon enough.

Melody


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think you have every right to be suspicious of your purchases. However, I don't think we really know, one way or the other, yet, about these frogs. 

With the OleMarie we know that they are captive bread because we know where and who they came from. We also know that these tincs are not a naturally thinner tinc, explaining their thin appearance. These issues were easy for us to sort out. IMO, he is better off with CB frogs than WC, even if they are too thin right now (assuming it is a lack of food issue and not something more serious). That doesn't excuse the seller lying about the origin or health of the frogs. Those were stupid lies that there was no point in telling. 

With your frogs it's a little different. They could be proven pairs (although I'd be surprised given what we know of the other transaction), they could be unproven pairs, they could be 4 males, they could be 1 male and 3 females. We just don't know yet. 

Really, until I see calling out of one end or eggs out of the other, I hate to say with any certainty what sex these smaller frogs are.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

It looks like she's getting these pairs sorted out and has at least one male/male proven pair. That's pretty amazing! 

Thank you, hon, for your hard work and determination and for bringing this situation to the light for us.


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