# Eco-Friendly Frogging



## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

Hi,
So it has recently occurred to me that there are alot of common herp-keeping practices that are not very eco-friendly. For example, I think everyone uses alot of electricity lighting or heating enclosures.

My question is what are some eco-friendly, sustainable husbandry practices that you utilize? 

Now, from a conservation stand point, the breeding of frogs and the selling and buying of captive bred animals have an obvious positive effect on wild populations. As we all know, when we buy captive bred animals we lessen the pressure on wild populations.

Personally, I breed all my own feeders, eliminating the need for them to be shipped. Many of my feeders are also fed food scraps which would otherwise take up space in landfills. 

I"m also fortunate enough to be able to house many of my herps outdoors, so no/little electricity is required. 

Finally, I'm experimenting with running an aquaponics system (the growing of plants in a closed system that is watered and fertilized by fish water) that utilizes frogs and tadpoles (as opposed to fish) in order to grow some of my own vegetables and herbs.

Anyway, I feel that it is of great importance for us as amphibian keepers to use husbandry practices that have the least amount of impact on natural environments as possible.

So, what do you all do that would be considered eco-friendly frogging?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

This is probably more for my pocketbook than being eco-friendly, but, I use ambient light for my tanks during most of the day. On weekends the plants get better light.

It's also because I'm afraid my 12 year old AC will go out on me when I'm not there and at least the frogs won't have hot lights beating down on them.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

My lights are just normal CFLs, which if I believe the hype are pretty eco-friendly. I don't use extra electricity for heat (I think it's only a rare few who actually have any need to heat their frogs). I do my best to culture my flies in house. I keep hearing about how good these LED bulbs are and I'd think that they probably use even less electricity.

I will say that I really really like the look of tree fern panels, but I'm told they are eco unfriendly. I don't have any in my tanks, but I still like the way they look.

I compare this to when I kept tortoises. With my torts I had a heat pad, large 160 watt-ish mercury vapor bulb, and another separate heat light (it was a large enclosure). I also ran a humidifier into the enclosure. I'm sure that keeping them indoors was a whole lot more taxing on both my electricity bill and the environment than the frogs are.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jwthought said:


> .
> 
> 
> Now, from a conservation stand point, the breeding of frogs and the selling and buying of captive bred animals have an obvious positive effect on wild populations. As we all know, when we buy captive bred animals we lessen the pressure on wild populations.


Actually this is a very questionable conclusion see for example the discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511



jwthought said:


> . Finally, I'm experimenting with running an aquaponics system (the growing of plants in a closed system that is watered and fertilized by fish water) that utilizes frogs and tadpoles (as opposed to fish) in order to grow some of my own vegetables and herbs.


Are you only using one locality of animals for the system or are you housing multiple taxa in this system? The reason I ask is how are you dealing with the potential exposure to novel pathogens. 

Ed


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

I think one of the biggest things a person can do, which is often overlooked, is to be careful with wastewater, materials, etc. so as to not harm native amphibians with your pets' pathogens. If you unknowingly carry something like chytrid in your collection, then dump out water or old dirt, etc. from your tanks, you could be putting the native frogs at risk of getting a devastating disease.
Bryan


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Baltimore Bryan said:


> I think one of the biggest things a person can do, which is often overlooked, is to be careful with wastewater, materials, etc. so as to not harm native amphibians with your pets' pathogens. If you unknowingly carry something like chytrid in your collection, then dump out water or old dirt, etc. from your tanks, you could be putting the native frogs at risk of getting a devastating disease.
> Bryan


Ok, in addition to not running my lights during the day, I also do the stuff posted above. It's a pain in the neck but small price to pay for the rewards of having frogs.


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

Ed said:


> Actually this is a very questionable conclusion see for example the discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting read. Thanks for the link. 

Would it then be more appropriate to say that genetically responsible captive breeding is helpful in terms of conservation?

Personally, I feel that animals bred in captivity specifically for the pet trade, that are not intended to be released in order to re-populate a species, are a much better option than wild caught animals. This is strictly in terms of decreasing the pressure put on wild populations due to over-collection, however.

As for the aquaponics, I assume you mean any animals in the system being exposed to pathogens, correct? If so, Im only using locally collected cuban tree frog tadpoles at this point while Im in the experimental stage. If things go well, I may try other varieties of frogs, but never more than one species or local at any one point. The systems are also indoors, so I have better control over it. Ultimately, I'd like to incorporate aquaponics into rain chambers, but Im working on the logistics of it.

I've had great success with aquaponics using locally caught tilapia and other cichlids, but so far the plants have not responded too well to the amphibians. Im thinking their waste is of the wrong ph for the plants.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jwthought said:


> Interesting read. Thanks for the link.
> 
> Would it then be more appropriate to say that genetically responsible captive breeding is helpful in terms of conservation?


Maybe, how does it directly or indirectly benefit the wild ecosystem that the frogs are from? 



jwthought said:


> Personally, I feel that animals bred in captivity specifically for the pet trade, that are not intended to be released in order to re-populate a species, are a much better option than wild caught animals.


It doesn't have to mean that animals for the pet trade have to be unsuitable. That is simple an artifact from how it is done and managed. 




jwthought said:


> This is strictly in terms of decreasing the pressure put on wild populations due to over-collection, however.


For the vast majority of animals this has yet to be seen.. for example, one would expect that with the massive number of captive bred ball pythons, that exports for the pet trade would have shown a steady decline but this isn't the case if one looks at the reports in the CITES Trade database. 

For this to work, it means that the cost for a wild caught animal has to be higher than the cost of a captive bred animals starting at the point of collection (it has to be unprofitable versus captive bred stock), unfortunately since the populations are unmanaged for genetic diversity,typically wild caught animals of even widely established types are valuable as new stock for outcrossing. 



jwthought said:


> As for the aquaponics, I assume you mean any animals in the system being exposed to pathogens, correct? If so, Im only using locally collected cuban tree frog tadpoles at this point while Im in the experimental stage. If things go well, I may try other varieties of frogs, but never more than one species or local at any one point. The systems are also indoors, so I have better control over it. Ultimately, I'd like to incorporate aquaponics into rain chambers, but Im working on the logistics of it.
> 
> I've had great success with aquaponics using locally caught tilapia and other cichlids, but so far the plants have not responded too well to the amphibians. Im thinking their waste is of the wrong ph for the plants.


Yes, that is what I am referring to, the fish and the amphibians should be from the same locality ideally to prevent novel infections (as examples look up ranaviruses). 

The pH shouldn't be the issue as the vast majority of anurans produce ammonia as the wast main nitrogen waste product. The amount of ammonia (and subsequent nitrate) may simply be too small in comparision to tilapia (biomass). 

There are concerns with utilizing a recycling system as you need to control baterial levels as well as nitrogen levels. 

Ed


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

Ed said:


> For this to work, it means that the cost for a wild caught animal has to be higher than the cost of a captive bred animals starting at the point of collection (it has to be unprofitable versus captive bred stock), unfortunately since the populations are unmanaged for genetic diversity,typically wild caught animals of even widely established types are valuable as new stock for outcrossing.


Yes, unfortunately, like everything else, money talks. Which is why I feel it is important for us as the consumer to select captive bred to the point that wc is no longer profitable. I do appreciate the need, however, for the occasional import to deepen the captive genetic pool.




Ed said:


> Yes, that is what I am referring to, the fish and the amphibians should be from the same locality ideally to prevent novel infections (as examples look up ranaviruses).
> 
> The pH shouldn't be the issue as the vast majority of anurans produce ammonia as the wast main nitrogen waste product. The amount of ammonia (and subsequent nitrate) may simply be too small in comparision to tilapia (biomass).
> 
> ...


To be clear, the system either uses fish or tadpoles, never both at the same time, although if I were to, technically the fish and tadpoles are from the same biotope, being that they were all collected from the same stretch of a Miami canal system. Gotta love the invasives! The plants show signs of low ph, so naturally I attributed that to a more acidic waste product from the tadpoles. I have not seen signs of lack of nitrogen, but Im no botanist so it could be a matter of bio-mass

As for the bacteria, at least the bacteria that account for the nitrogen cycle, the water is tested every couple of days for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates to be sure that the bacteria levels are were they should be. I think you might be referring to pathogenic bacteria, tho. In which case, yes, it is a concern.

At any rate, I dont want to de-rail this thread too much. I want to stay focused on, for example, who reuses their fruit fly cups, haha!

Thanks for the input, Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I wash and reuse my lids and cups.. 

I recycle the cups that eventually split. When I've shipped things, I've given a discount if the box and phase change panels are mailed back to me so they can be reused. 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Ed said:


> I wash and reuse my lids and cups..
> 
> I recycle the cups that eventually split. When I've shipped things, I've given a discount if the box and phase change panels are mailed back to me so they can be reused.
> 
> Ed


I do the same. However I am pretty sure that the washing fruit fly cups is my least favorite part of raising PDFs!

Sally


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

srrrio said:


> However I am pretty sure that the washing fruit fly cups is my least favorite part of raising PDFs!
> 
> Sally


Agreed!

What about water conservation? We do use a good deal of water in this hobby. Anyone doing anything interesting to cut down? I try to use as much rain water in my tanks as I can. I always put out a few collection containers out when i know its going to storm.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jwthought said:


> Agreed!
> 
> What about water conservation? We do use a good deal of water in this hobby. Anyone doing anything interesting to cut down? I try to use as much rain water in my tanks as I can. I always put out a few collection containers out when i know its going to storm.


 
Rainwater can be problematic due to the large number of things that get washed out of the atmosphere. See for example this paper discussing atrazine content of rainwater http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241446/pdf/ehp0111-000568.pdf 

Waste water from my frog tanks is collected, bleached, neutralized and then used to water the garden that aren't used for food production. Waste water from the RO system is also used for the garden. 

Ed


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

Thanks again for the article. Man, tryin to do the right thing is tough! I've seen similar articles that speak of hermaphrodism in populations of smallmouth bass due to contaminants. Environmental Estrogens or Xenoestrogens are Ubiquitous

Being from Philadelphia, I've always been aware of possible (or likely) contaminants in the rainwater. So much so that when I lived up there, using rain water was not even an option. 

I now live in the Florida Keys where I feel better about the purity of the rain water. I have no evidence to really back this up, but being so far from major farms or polluters must equal cleaner rain, I would think.

Our tap water is piped in from a source up in central Florida and the spring water that is offered locally has been accused of being nothing more than tap water, rain water might be the best option here. In fact, rainwater was recommended to me by my vet, Dr. Doug Mader, who is an authority on reptile and amphibian medicine.

That being said, I should add the disclaimer that some, or maybe most, areas might not be suitable for using un-filtered rainwater.

Thanks again for the insight.


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

You sir are very lucky to have that vet  I don't know many vets, but I have heard plenty about Dr. Mader being awesome and I know many people who use his books as references.

Sorry for the off-topic. I'm just a bit jealous.


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

PeanutbuttER said:


> You sir are very lucky to have that vet  I don't know many vets, but I have heard plenty about Dr. Mader being awesome and I know many people who use his books as references.
> 
> Sorry for the off-topic. I'm just a bit jealous.


Haha, yeah, his practice is here in Marathon. Nice guy, too. He does alot of volunteer work for the sea turtle and marine mammal rehabilitation facilities in town. He really knows his stuff. 

But dont be too jealous, he's not cheap! jk!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jwthought said:


> I now live in the Florida Keys where I feel better about the purity of the rain water. I have no evidence to really back this up, but being so far from major farms or polluters must equal cleaner rain, I would think.


 
Except down there you have issues with pollution from overseas which it turns out is the one of the major reasons there are so many consumption advisories for fish in Florida see for example Florida State University's Research in Review

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

We grow nearly all our own plants,buy one make the rest
We use filtered rainwater i except that there might be risks,bleech frog waste water dilute then utilise it on the plants in the garden (thanks Ed).We use old sweetjars (trash from sweetshops) to culture our ff's and try not to buy many in,4 cutures so far,2 of which failed straight away due to mite infestations that they came with. our frogs diet is suplimented heavily with wild caught local food.Same with 3 types of iso and a wild culture we are experimenting with. springtials i need to source more of.Nearly all the ingredients for our iso cultures are picked up ...leaflitter,rotton plum wood leaves,and a bit of bought charcoal,some i make. All the wood in our vivs is local sourced mainly oak but a bit of native lonicera(we are in England by the way),all dead when found,then i pop it up in the air probably for months untill usage. most of the glass in our vivs, which we make ourselves, is rubbish sourced from glaziers or old greenhouses,(oh and its a nightmare to clean and cut,but it can be done...well most times) i have to buy the optiwhite though but use mostly offcuts but that doesn't really count here as i guess that could be recycled. We use mainly leds, which are cheep to run,but i don't know about manufactuing costs) supplimented by t5tube lighting for the uvb side of things.We compost everything we can and grab frog grub here too,again i except there might be risks.Ha my frogroom floor is constructed partly of rubbish out of a skip on a building site,the double glazed window secondary glazing unit was made totally out of rubbish,but i had to buy 8 screws A good portion of our tads diet is sourced from too big old waterbutts bloodworms/midge larvea,duckweed,carrying algea, risks here i guess too but maybe not more than buying in bloodworm plus associated transport costs ect..
Does this make any difference in the big ol scheme of things,probably not much,but a tiny tiny bit less ends up in landfill,for quite alot of extra effort and time,but maybe a lot of tiny bits will one day add up. Does this realistically offset bringing a dartfrog from america to canada to germany to england because i adore them and am selfishly infatuated with them TOUGH for me to say but i guess,not!! But i might just be able to put a miniscule bit back to my little phib friends by selling a few frogs that we breed,getting rid of the associated travel to england and chucking say a tenth (which is totally my intention), at some clever guys working in conserving darts or their habitat.
Do i think we can do ecofriendly frogging,big question, that wonderful nieve kid in me ruddy wants to.... but realistically,as a 47yr old nah i don't think so,but maybe we can do just a bit,and i suppose thats the essence of it!
bring it on
Stu


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

Ed said:


> Except down there you have issues with pollution from overseas which it turns out is the one of the major reasons there are so many consumption advisories for fish in Florida see for example Florida State University's Research in Review
> 
> Ed


"...long-range atmospheric transport of elemental mercury". Ugh. You're such a killjoy, Ed. 




stu&shaz said:


> ... maybe a lot of tiny bits will one day add up.


I think that's about all we can hope for at this point. You have some interesting ideas. Thanks for sharing.


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## ravengritz (Mar 2, 2009)

In addition to many of the practices already listed I choose glass over plastic whenever possible (fly rearing, tadpole rearing, petri dishes etc.).
Melissa


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jwthought said:


> "...long-range atmospheric transport of elemental mercury". Ugh. You're such a killjoy, Ed.


 
And the mercury is just the tip of the ice burg... pesticides, herbicides, and other pleasent things are also transported from other areas in the atmosphere... 

Sorry... but you asked someone with a background in biochem and who worked in a conservation organization for 17 years.... 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Wow Stu! Nice work. I don't even know where I would find usable scraps. Maybe I'll look around just to see.

Well, I do use glass jars for ffs and wash/reuse them. Oh, and, to offset the increase in water usage, I've stopped bathing.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

thanks Kris,its just little things we do,its kinda how we live really quite a simple life close to nature. I am fearerful over some of the things and having Ed's profound wisdom tell me what can go wrong as above with water,has not gone without consideration. i am also influenced particularly on the water by a guy called Alan Cann,he lives about an hour from us as the crow flys.Alan is also extraordinarily clever and utilises rainwater,so we have taken his model and tried to up it a bit. Its the longterm slow poisons that scare me to death,but Alan recently lost his old tinc at i think 20plus yrs so it might be ok. Trouble is this polution that we cause may well be everywhere rainforests too.
Ahh mate you made me smile,with the bathing,got a soln for ya,don't think the neibours would approve though,just run about naked in the rain,works for me,nah not really,i know us english are eccentric,but were are mostly quite reserved!
Oh yeah don't we hate washing old cultures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
regards
Stu


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## SutorS (Feb 20, 2011)

> I will say that I really really like the look of tree fern panels, but I'm told they are eco unfriendly. I don't have any in my tanks, but I still like the way they look.


You're right. Those tree fern panels are taken from the base of tree ferns, killing the plant. Some of the plants harvested may be common species, least concern for conservation, but some are very rare species. Sadly they are very popular for many things...herp backgrounds, pots for plants, etc.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

SutorS said:


> You're right. Those tree fern panels are taken from the base of tree ferns, killing the plant. Some of the plants harvested may be common species, least concern for conservation, but some are very rare species. Sadly they are very popular for many things...herp backgrounds, pots for plants, etc.


I'd read on some orchid boards about conservation concerns regarding tree ferns. So, I don't buy it, but I will reuse it if something comes in on it.


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## jwthought (Oct 30, 2004)

There are also environmental concerns about the harvesting or mining of sphagnum peat moss. Evidently, coir is a better alternative.

Here's a simple article: For Peat


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

we have not yet used treefernpanels, in our vivs,but last winter was the hardest here in the uk for a long long time,many many gardeners were cought out by it,thats where we come in. i now have 2 massive dicksonia antartica trunks drying in our garden,once again they would have ended up in landfill ,but for a quiet word with all my gardening friends,don't know whether i will be able to cut them yet but,where there's a will there's a way. .
We have a brand of coco fiber here,it is widely touted for viv use,personnally i use it for backgrounds,its absolutly awful to grow in or as a substrate,because it holds so much water,we use orchid bark to open it up.I have used a bit of peat though,i guess its my really big sin,although very sparingly,one bag will do our 18-24viv room. Suposedly its harvested by suction,which is said to retain the integrety of the peat bog,folks more knowledgable than i have told me this is true.i have reservations about this though,and am fastidious about its use,don't make it right though. The price of peat here went stupid last year because it was too wet to harvest.I have worked in horticulture the amount of peat used there is horrendous,the gardening industry here is trying to get away from peat use but its struggling 
realistically i shouldn't have bought the peat,the use of composted leaflitter is a much better alternative. How hard is it to buy plants over there that are not grown in a peat based compost? its very difficult here
sStu


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