# Thin looking dart frog



## --Mark--

I got a pair of dendrobates tinctorius 'lorenzo' on Saturday and I noticed tonight that the male is looking a bit thin. He's been eating fine and is full of energy, just looks a bit bony.


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## Aldross

He is terribly thin. He needs to be placed by himself and fed daily preferably at a feeding station so as to not waste extra energy hunting.

Edit: Did he look like when you bought him?


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## --Mark--

No. He seemed a little fatter before I got him. I've been feeding fruit flies dusted with both of the exo terra supplements.


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## Aldross

--Mark-- said:


> No. He seemed a little fatter before I got him. I've been feeding fruit flies dusted with both of the exo terra supplements.


Exo terra supplements doesn't tell me much as they make many and I have yet to use one. I doubt that within the small time frame you have had them it could be a vit deficiency. By the looks of the pic he is not in quarantine. Since that protocol was not followed then I assume that there has been no testing done on them. Rapid weight loss could be do to major health issues.


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## --Mark--

These are the supplements:


I have not had any testing done as I only really noticed how skinny he was tonight. Would you reccommend any high fat foods to get him to start gaining weight?


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## --Mark--

This was him the day I got him:


He was a little thin but not hugely so I don't think? I tried to fatten him up but he has just been getting thinner. Neither are on the Saturday and then both have been eating since.


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## Aldross

If you have them or access then for sure. You could also do FF larva. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/38080-feeding-ff-larvae-worked-pretty-good.html


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## frogfreak

The weight loss can be due to stress as well. Moving dart frogs causes a great deal of stress.


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## Aldross

frogfreak said:


> The weight loss can be due to stress as well. Moving dart frogs causes a great deal of stress.


True but I don't think that a frog that was in good shape 4 days ago could then look like if it's only stress. Especially is that frog is eating and as active as claimed.


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## carola1155

any chance we could get some more information on how the frog is being kept? Maybe some info detailing the conditions of their home? Pictures?


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## Judy S

worms?????


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## frogfreak

Aldross said:


> True but I don't think that a frog that was in good shape 4 days ago could then look like if it's only stress. Especially is that frog is eating and as active as claimed.


It wasn't in 'great' shape to start out. It didn't have a whole lot of fat reserves and was underweight. 

You can see bone structure in the as purchased photo. It wouldn't take long to lose more weight when it was shipped/moved when underweight to begin with.

The FF larvae is a very good idea.


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## Aldross

I see that now that I'm home. 

Was this purchased from someone you know or at a show? Elsewhere?


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## markpulawski

How old are they? Also he does not look terribly thin but definitely could use some fattening up. Feed small amounts 3 to 4 times per day, as long as he is eating you should see him gradually fatten up, it won't happen over night and don't over feed.


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## s0082

Stress can really affect some froggies  The move was probably too much for him  How big is his enclosure? Id try to keep the food near him so he doesn't have to work too hard to hunt, but don't have the tank filled with food, sometimes too many can stress them also. I would offer him food a couple times a day in small amounts. Maybe make sure you have ff, springtails, maybe some isopods or ff larvae to have a couple different sources to fatten him up. Make sure humidity and temp are in range too. Too hot or too cold can make a difference or not enough humidity. Make sure you don't have a heat lamp (reptile light) that is a NO NO... just some things for you to check out 
I would also contact whoever you got him from and ask for pics of his former home, ask if any of the animals have been tested etc... let them know what is going on too. He was a little thin when you bought him from the looks of it.  GOOD LUCK!


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## --Mark--

I've managed to get a bit of weight on him! Hard to tell from the pic but he's gaining a bit.


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## --Mark--

He's still looking thin. Still full of energy but is looking about the same as before. I've tried working with Levacol and still no change. I've tried feeding with calci worms but they didn't like them. I have some confused flour beetles on the way. They must be about 12-14 months old now. The vivarium is kept between 24-26C and +85% humidity. Any ideas on where I should go next?


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## Dane

--Mark-- said:


> He's still looking thin. Still full of energy but is looking about the same as before. I've tried working with Levacol and still no change. I've tried feeding with calci worms but they didn't like them. I have some confused flour beetles on the way. They must be about 12-14 months old now. The vivarium is kept between 24-26C and +85% humidity. Any ideas on where I should go next?


Any microfauna in the enclosure? Stressed animals will often prefer smaller prey and a consistent food source that they can utilize as they see fit.


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## joneill809

I've got three adult pair of Lorenzo, and, in general, the males can appear to be pretty skinny relative to other tinctorius males due to their small size. At ~1.25", they seem to "pinch-in" behind the front legs quite a bit, often looking skinny on dorsal shots. Lorenzo profile shots usually show a decent round belly, but depending on the angle, they often look a lot skinner than males from larger tinc locales. I'd suggest trying to get a few pictures of him from several angles to give us a better idea of what he looks like.

I've also noticed adult male Lorezno are skittish, and usually do not feed as aggressively as other male tincs. My female Lorenzos are usually out and snatching up flies while the males are hiding in the shadows. I try to scatter flies around the viv to give the males a chance to forage after I step away from the glass. You could try separating them to see if he puts on weight over the course of a month or two.

_Are you sure it's a male? Has he called?_ I had a smaller animal that I thought was a male for quite some time, but it turned out to be a stressed skinny female. The initial group was a suspected 2.2 that turned out to be a 1.3. I pulled the skinny female and the 1.2 did fine. The third female put on weight in isolation, so there's another thought for separating them for a while. Toe pads are tough with Lorenzo - their tips are black and not white, so it's hard to see. They are so tiny it's hard to get a good look at their sloped back, so a skinny female can be easily mistaken for a male. Though far from proven, in general, male Lorenzo have higher yellow coverage than females - most males have a thick crest that runs down their back. Female crests tend to end just behind the eye, with faint yellowing further down the back. The last dorsal shot looks more female than male. If they are only 12 to 14 months, I would be leery about making a call on sexing them.

Mine feed mostly on Turkish gliders, supplemented with Hydei and Bean Beetles. I use Repashy Ca Plus, Repashy Vit A and Dendrocare in my rotation. I don't see anything wrong with the rotation you are using, I'd try separating them for a while and see what happens. Good luck!


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## --Mark--

I'm not sure if I have a male and female. I know I definitely have at least 1 female because she is a ghost. There are plenty of springtails in the tank. Fortunately, my 'male' has blue feet so the toe pads are quite noticeable:


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## --Mark--

This is probably a better one to show his or her back:


Could it be just that they are still recovering from the shock of the Levacol? I've heard it can be very strong? They only finished worming about a week and a half ago? I would have expected a bit of weight to appear on it by this point but am I expecting a bit much?


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## joneill809

Yeah the legs are really thin in that last photo - maybe thinner than the earlier photos? I have not used lavacol so I can't help much there. I'd agree with earlier advice on stress and I would isolate the two and try to get weight on the thin one and contact your vet for further treatment options (my vet had me use Metronidazole as an appetite stimulant with a thin frog).


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## justcoolforyou

I heard once the thinning is cuz it was a bad egg genetics


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## Celtic Aaron

I am with Jim in that I cannot speak to the Levacol and that you should isolate. However, it sounds like your frog is being treated by a vet? If that is the case, great! What I think you can do, if you haven't already is isolate your frog in a smaller, plastic container with lots of leaf litter for security and lots of microfauna as Dane has suggested. Introduce small amounts of flies at a time as to not overwhelm your frog but still try get him some supplements. You can also try using some fruit fly larvae to fatten him up...


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## joneill809

justcoolforyou said:


> I heard once the thinning is cuz it was a bad egg genetics


In my experience with Lorenzo (which are likely more bottlenecked in the US compared to EU) froglets morph out relatively strong and don't show long term wasting. The challenge is getting fertile eggs and viable tads, but once you get viable tadpoles, they typically yield strong froglets. My sample size is only ~20 froglet / juvenile Lorenzo, but none have demonstrated this kind of weight loss. The only animal I have seen struggle was the the mis-identified female I mentioned earlier that was stressed by other females in her grow out. She gained weight in isolation. This is my best guess, but the continued wasting over 6 months points to stress to me (and others commenting before me).


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## --Mark--

When I bought them, the breeder did say he would be happy to swap the 'male' for another if he turned out to be a female. I will try to get in touch with him and see about a switch.


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## Celtic Aaron

--Mark-- said:


> When I bought them, the breeder did say he would be happy to swap the 'male' for another if he turned out to be a female. I will try to get in touch with him and see about a switch.


Hmmm. I was under the impression that you were not sure the sex of the frog. Am I mistaken? 

I am curious about the other frog and the rest of the enclosure. Can you provide some pictures of the enclosure as well as the other frog? I ask because if the frog is sick and has been sick for 6 months, whatever that frog has, the other would likely have as well. Maybe I am wrong, but I would expect to see similar symptoms in the other frog if it is disease. If, however, this is a case of stress, it may only affect the one animal and it would be helpful to see what the enclosure looks like. Either way, you should really isolate that frog in a much smaller container with lots of leaf litter and microfauna. What has your vet had to say?


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## --Mark--

You are correct in saying that we were unsure of the sex of one of the frogs. The other frog has lost some weight too but I wouldn't say as much as this one.



What size of container would you suggest for the isolation tank? There are plenty of springtails and other natural life that I see the frogs picking at during the day. I do notice that the 'male' tends to hide when he sees the flies being dropped in and it takes about a minute for him to realise what it is, even after this amount of time.


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## Celtic Aaron

Thanks for the pics Mark. While your tank looks nice, I am not sure how well suited it is for a more terrestrial frog. Certainly dendrobatids will use climbing space available to them and it is a good idea, but with terrestrial frogs, you must first give them the floor space that they need for comfort and security. Living mainly on the forest floor, they will move in and out of leaf litter and void spaces created by roots, sticks, etc. as they forage for food. Without this, they may feel insecure and vulnerable, which could create stress. Water features and pools are not the worst idea; however, they often take up valuable floor space that should be use a different way and typically add no value to the frog's health. I am not saying this is the only problem; however, it will likely contribute to it.

As for an isolation container, I typically use a Sterilite 12 or 16 quart container (about 15"x9"x7") with a tight-fitting lid. There are many ways to do this, but at a bare minimum you should have lots of leaf litter and springs. I also add a small amount of sphagnum at the bottom of mine. This will help them feel secure and will provide them plenty of opportunity to eat without working too hard for it as they hopefully recover.

What I recommend:

1. Isolate the frogs immediately. This will give them the best opportunity to recover for the reasons above. Also, if the frog is sick, you do not want to continuously reintroduce the frog to those pathogens.

2. See a vet if you haven't already. Without proper testing and treatment from a qualified vet, you may be delaying much needed treatment. A vet who is well versed in amphibian care will help to direct you in the testing and treatment of your frogs.


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## --Mark--

I had planned on removing the pool but my fogger has had to go to be replaced so I left it just to keep humidity a bit more stable. What about plant life in the isolation container. Should I add some foliage plants?


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## Celtic Aaron

--Mark-- said:


> I had planned on removing the pool but my fogger has had to go to be replaced so I left it just to keep humidity a bit more stable. What about plant life in the isolation container. Should I add some foliage plants?



If you have a good false bottom with a little water in it, that should keep the humidity stable also and still give you the floor space. While they can be really nice, I only have one water feature in all of my tanks.

I typically put small cuttings in the grow outs, but it is not necessary. If you have the means, it's a good thing, but be sure they are free from pathogens (not from your current tank) and also free from pesticides or other chemicals (properly process plants you buy).


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## --Mark--

Yesterday I noticed the ghost female in the coco hut lying sprawled out in the little pool that had collected in there. This morning she was still lying there and I haven't seen here eat at all. Yesterday morning she was active and eating and starting to put on a bit of weight I think but now she's suddenly stopped. She was the one I was least worried about.... From this sudden downturn it seems to me like it could be disease? Yesterday morning fine if a little skinny and then today she looks half dead.


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## Judy S

sorry to read that.....


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## --Mark--

Haven't checked on her this morning yet as lights aren't on yet and she's jet black so can't find her. I'm worried as to what I might find though. She was in a bad way...


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## --Mark--

If she is dead, is there a recommended "fallow" period for the viv? Just incase it is a disease?


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## --Mark--

Not been a good day for me livestock wise. First I find a dead frog and then my nano goby managed to jump through the slats of my tank cover and I found it crispy on the floor :/. Ghost female has passed on :/. Male is still active so I'm hoping he won't be affected.


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## Aldross

--Mark-- said:


> If she is dead, is there a recommended "fallow" period for the viv? Just incase it is a disease?


If it is a disease then slash and burn is really the only action to take.


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## Celtic Aaron

Yeah, I agree. Sorry to hear about that.


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## --Mark--

Slash and burn? So start again?


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## Aldross

--Mark-- said:


> Slash and burn? So start again?


Take it down to just glass and bleach out. 
This should be done anytime you change occupants but much more so with any form of sudden death.


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## Judy S

The thing that occurs to me is--if the other occupant was with the "ghost" female--would it be fitting to give some period of time before tearing the tank apart? It may have been something for just the one frog. If he stays healthy why not leave things as they are? What would you do with the one frog if it is also infected or whatever...it would have to be isolated, tested, etc. It is an assumption that the dead frog had a disease...Curious about how old they are/were...were they from the same place --same time going into the newly built tank...things of that sort. My 2cents' worth is wait and see... if the other frog shows any symptoms of disease--then tear that tank down--if he is healthy, eating...it will be healthy and eating in isolation--and the stress for him should not be ignored. Fecal testing, and repeating fecals might be worth looking at...and perhaps cytrid and rana as well... Good luck..please keep us posted--there is always someone who learns from other people's experience--especially the negative ones--unfortunately.


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## --Mark--

They were added at the same time. The ghost was about 14 months or so at time of death and the other is about 11 months. Breeder has offered to give me 2 free ones in a couple of months once they get past the tadpole stage. Hopefully there'll be a match in there. Since the ghost's death I have noticed the other frog is eating and is a bit bolder. While I was waiting for springtails to put in the isolation I had put up a net to separate them. Even with this up I have noticed a difference since the death, so fingers crossed this one pulls through..,


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## Judy S

that sounds promising...would be interesting to have some of the "greybeards" to weigh in with their experience before you tear the tank apart...but sounds as though you enough time to make another tank from scratch, let the plants mature--put in the isos and springs...and go from there...


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## Celtic Aaron

Judy S said:


> The thing that occurs to me is--if the other occupant was with the "ghost" female--would it be fitting to give some period of time before tearing the tank apart? It may have been something for just the one frog. If he stays healthy why not leave things as they are? What would you do with the one frog if it is also infected or whatever...it would have to be isolated, tested, etc. It is an assumption that the dead frog had a disease...Curious about how old they are/were...were they from the same place --same time going into the newly built tank...things of that sort. My 2cents' worth is wait and see... if the other frog shows any symptoms of disease--then tear that tank down--if he is healthy, eating...it will be healthy and eating in isolation--and the stress for him should not be ignored. Fecal testing, and repeating fecals might be worth looking at...and perhaps cytrid and rana as well... Good luck..please keep us posted--there is always someone who learns from other people's experience--especially the negative ones--unfortunately.


I understand what you are saying here Judy. The only problem that I have is that both seem to have an issue and he has had them a good 6 months or so. Initially we thought it was only the skinny frog, but suddenly the other one (that was supposed to be healthy) died. In my opinion, this is a game of risk management. Unless Mark is willing to get a necropsy and ensure that his frogs are not dying of a disease that could be spread through the tank, I would not even take the risk. In my opinion it is much better to scrap a tank and start over than to risk other frog's health. Especially when he is talking about getting new frogs in a couple of months that will likely go into that same enclosure.


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## Celtic Aaron

--Mark-- said:


> They were added at the same time. The ghost was about 14 months or so at time of death and the other is about 11 months. Breeder has offered to give me 2 free ones in a couple of months once they get past the tadpole stage. Hopefully there'll be a match in there. Since the ghost's death I have noticed the other frog is eating and is a bit bolder. While I was waiting for springtails to put in the isolation I had put up a net to separate them. Even with this up I have noticed a difference since the death, so fingers crossed this one pulls through..,


I sure hope this works out for the other frog. Where are you located? Have you tried reaching out to local froggers for help? Maybe someone would be willing to help you set up a QT tank for this frog, as well as all future frogs.


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## --Mark--

So I've been watching him all day and he's eating a lot more. I added a piece of apple so he's eating at least double the amount of flies and I'm even seeing him chasing after springtails! I'm located in Glasgow in the UK so I don't know how many local keepers there are.


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## Celtic Aaron

Glad to hear that he is eating a lot more! I know there are some folks from the UK on this board. Try reaching out.


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## --Mark--

The other frog died today. Was looking much better too. He even had a bit more weight on him. I'm going to strip the tank and sterilise it. What should I do with the plants? I don't really want to bin them especially as my orchid is just starting to flower but I will if I have to.


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## Judy S

cheaper to replace the plants than another pair of frogs....the orchid could probably do quite well in its own terrarium...along with other orchids!!!


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## Celtic Aaron

--Mark-- said:


> The other frog died today. Was looking much better too. He even had a bit more weight on him. I'm going to strip the tank and sterilise it. What should I do with the plants? I don't really want to bin them especially as my orchid is just starting to flower but I will if I have to.


Sorry for the loss . I think it is a good idea to scrap the plants too. As Judy said, I would not take the chance of reintroducing pathogens into another animal enclosure. I know that it is inconvenient and costly, but better that now than going through this again. That is my take on it anyway.


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## --Mark--

I was talking to the breeder and he suggested soaking them in F10 disinfectant solution for 30minutes? Or would you say just get rid?


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## Aldross

--Mark-- said:


> I was talking to the breeder and he suggested soaking them in F10 disinfectant solution for 30minutes? Or would you say just get rid?


When in doubt the best method is always fully stripping the tank. Take the it down to glass and treat with bleach. Background and everything needs to be properly disposed of. You have no clue what really caused these deaths and considering it wasn't rapid they had to have something  wrong with them. I myself would not want anything from that tank even in my house.


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## Celtic Aaron

--Mark-- said:


> I was talking to the breeder and he suggested soaking them in F10 disinfectant solution for 30minutes? Or would you say just get rid?


This is just me, but I would not reuse any plants from a viv where I had likely sick frogs. I know that you can disinfect plants in bleach solution, but that is not the same as sterilizing them. To me, the risk of going through what you just went through again is not worth using those plants. I do not know what the risk really is, but peace of mind is worth something for me. I would feel horrible if new frogs got sick possibly because I reused something I could have easily replaced. Also, I put too much time, money, and effort into these vivs.

Take it all out. Sterilize the tank. Rebuild with all new and disinfected stuff. Enjoy!...My two cents.


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## Aldross

On another note.
This breeder that you got the frogs from. Is he a friend of yours that you buy from for that reason or because he is local?
Due to the fact that you got frogs that were an issue from day one I wold consider a new source.
Where are you located. There are many of us spread out across the US that would be more than willing to help you get some new frogs.
Since you have spent so much time working on these and trying your hardest to do the right thing I will offer you a couple Surinam Cobalts for the cost of shipping when my next batch morphs and grows out as long as you are willing to fully tear the viv down. 
I would say the beginning of fall would be safe bet and that would give you plenty of time to strip the tank, rebuild it and give you some good grow in time for your plants and microfauna.


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## Judy S

THAT is a generous and sincere offer of help....the best that DB members can do for each other...props


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## --Mark--

Thanks so much for the offer. I would jump at it except I live in the UK. The breeder is one of the only ones in Scotland so it's just convenience I guess. I have been considering a new species or a new breeder. I was thinking some Azureus or leucomelas. I will say to the breeder if you also think I should. Thanks again for the offer.


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## --Mark--

I will get rid of the plants too. Thanks For all your advice! I was considering another tank for a while before this but that will have to go on hold. Just to check, should I bin hard scape (logs, rocks etc.) too? I'm guessing yes?


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## Aldross

--Mark-- said:


> I will get rid of the plants too. Thanks For all your advice! I was considering another tank for a while before this but that will have to go on hold. Just to check, should I bin hard scape (logs, rocks etc.) too? I'm guessing yes?


Sadly yes I would toss everything. 
Scotland is a bit hard to ship to. 
You can't go wrong with either of the 2 you listed. I have both and they were my 1st darts. The Azureus took a bit to become bold but the leucs were active from day one.


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## stu&shaz

Mark,first up i'm sorry to read of your hard start into our hobby,things don't all ways run like this buddy. All credit to you for wanting to keep going. Buddy i'm in England,so first up if ever I can help in any way shout buddy shoot me a pm,if i can help,it will be done. Bro you have a vet school in Edinburough I believe. for future ref if you ever have problems,i'd speak to them,I'd actually make contact anyway,to see what help they can give,they might reffer you to another party,but at least this way you will have a head start,in contacting a vet,with exotic experience if needed. i've not kept lorenzo and only know that they are not one of the commoner morphs,but I suspect our gene pool to be a bit stronger than what our colleagues stateside have to work with. I suspect I know the breeder and he is a good guy if my guess is right, the offer of replacement is what I would expect from him. But I really wonder if some leucs might be for the best for you to start with after what has happened. They I would think are a bit stronger for a newer guy than the lorenzo to start with .It is also evident that you are really trying to do the best for them,so you deserve a flying start with the next ones and I think leucs will be the best chance of giving you that.

Mate i'm right down in the midlands and would sort some ,but I only have a couple of tank reared at this time and have no way of getting them up to you. Having a bigger collection I only breed these sporadically almost specifically for new guys, I keep them much longer than is usual here,so these big strong things have the best chance of success with their new keeper learning all this. Ask the breeder if he knows of any leuc breeders up there he might have contacts closer than I,if not i'll give you some names to speak too.

Mark you can get all your repashy vit products here: repashy.co.uk Nick and Amanda are lovely folks,I've been dealing with them for years now,everything is right about them,postage is free,if you need any help with which specific products,just ask mate.

Again with feeders either I or one of my froggy mates might be able to help if you are short on anything,just ask.

Buddy I have a lot on my plate at the momment if I miss posts here by you please PM me. Oh kiddo pop your location up on your sig,I thought you were in USA,so our friends here had your back,or I would have tried to help a bit earlier on. One of them was kind enough to make me aware. I'm nothing special in the hobby mate, it's just I talk too much so they know me. but I do have some largish threads here and on some US fora,members frogs and vivs here,Da dartroom will find me. I did then whole thing from scratch made my vivs, my racking, grew plants, the whole thing!! So there might just be facets of that that could be of use,with me being here too. We do have access to some products that our american friends don't so reading my insanity might be of us to you,hell I dunno.

As far as the vivs and all the husbandry stuff,while the crew at DB seem to have everything covered for you as always,so not really anything much to add there. Plants and things like that I don't know who you used,but there are quite a few specialist guys we have access to not only here but EU too,ask and I'll make you aware of some,if needed.

good luck 

Stu


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## --Mark--

Thanks a lot Stu. There's actually a guy I found in Glasgow that keeps dart frogs. I knew him for a while but only through reef keeping, I didn't realise he also kept darts. There's also another guy that has azureus and breeds them here in Glasgow. The lorenzo breeder also suggested a few azureus breeders. I get all my plants and supplements from Dartfrog.co.uk. Thanks for the advice! I've torn apart and disinfected the viv already so I can start putting it back together again....

Mark


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## stu&shaz

--Mark-- said:


> Thanks a lot Stu. There's actually a guy I found in Glasgow that keeps dart frogs. I knew him for a while but only through reef keeping, I didn't realise he also kept darts. There's also another guy that has azureus and breeds them here in Glasgow. The lorenzo breeder also suggested a few azureus breeders. I get all my plants and supplements from Dartfrog.co.uk. Thanks for the advice! I've torn apart and disinfected the viv already so I can start putting it back together again....
> 
> Mark


Buddy you are welcome,as I said earlier all kudos for trying bro,new keepers that try like what you have need all the help they can get and deserve it!! If there is anything you need mate just shout, 

Take your time with the viv, make sure each stage is cured out properly and try and get levels into it. Try and maximise the 3D space with the jungle gym,think how will they use.... this... if I put that there,where will they like to roost. I try to think like I'm a frog in the tank I'm making,it really helps me to build for them,not me. It's a mindset I guess ok fair dues a mad one,but then I talk to them as well so there is little hope for me anyway

good luck 

Stu


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## --Mark--

I've redone the tank. Will add leaf litter once my springtails arrive then I'll leave everything to grow in until about September.


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