# Darts with Chameleons



## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

I am thinking of setting up a 300+gallon vivarium and was wondering if I could mix chameleons in the viv with the frogs. One issue I thought I might have is the large crickets being used to feed the chameleon messing with the frogs. Anyone tried this yet???

Please post if you have experience with this or if you have any suggestions. I'm not looking for endorsements or opinions. I've kept a chameleon in the past and would simply like to know if this has been tried before and if so with what sucess or failure.
Thanks for helping.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Chameleons are Old World, PDFs are New World.

I can't endorse it, but you'll no doubt do what you want.


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## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

Years ago.................. Petco happily said you could mix chameleons with dumpy tree frogs to me, so being a newb I tried it and i learned that chameleons can get pretty pissed off from this and the way I learned this was by the fact that it ate one of my frogs. Since darts are way smaller I would recommend against this.

Now a small day gecko if you have enough height, is another story.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Have you researched chameleons and their care? Which kind are you wanting to know if they can live with darts?

Just a quick google search yields an explanation of the chameleons enclosure requirements:
_"Chameleons require a *full screen enclosure* in order to facilitate continual fresh air. In addition, *seeing their reflections in the glass of an aquarium type enclosure will stress the chameleon*."_

"_During the day, the gradient of heat in the cage should be 80_F to 95_F, while at night 70_F to 85_F"_

"_Crickets should be set loose within the enclosure_" ...a sure way to stress the dart frogs.

Candy


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

divingne1 said:


> Have you researched chameleons and their care? Which kind are you wanting to know if they can live with darts?
> 
> Just a quick google search yields an explanation of the chameleons enclosure requirements:
> _"Chameleons require a *full screen enclosure* in order to facilitate continual fresh air. In addition, *seeing their reflections in the glass of an aquarium type enclosure will stress the chameleon*."_
> ...


I've kept paradalis in the past. They are awesome creatures. I just had not heard if anyone has tried to keep them with darts or not. Ventilation in an enclosed viv would not be an issue in the case because I would have vent fans for air exchange just as i do with my current dart frog tank. I had not heard about them getting stressed over their reflection but that makes alot of sense. 

Sounds like it would not work out to well. That's too bad. That would be pretty sweet have a chameleon hanging out in the canopy and the frogs down on the ground. I also started thinking about how much poop chameleons produce and I think it would foul up the vivarium pretty quickly.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

flyangler18 said:


> Chameleons are Old World, PDFs are New World.
> 
> I can't endorse it, but you'll no doubt do what you want.


Do you have any experience or information that would help me out other then just your opinion??? I'm really not asking for anyone's endorsement but rather if they have any insight from experience.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

hexentanz said:


> Years ago.................. Petco happily said you could mix chameleons with dumpy tree frogs to me, so being a newb I tried it and i learned that chameleons can get pretty pissed off from this and the way I learned this was by the fact that it ate one of my frogs. Since darts are way smaller I would recommend against this.
> 
> Now a small day gecko if you have enough height, is another story.



The frogs being eaten is a big concern since chameleons hunt on motion.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Panther chameleons are beautiful chameleons and after researching their care and husbandry requirements myself, I joined Chameleon Forums As a matter of fact, you can go there are read my post on "why a glass tank isn't an ideal enclosure for chameleons...even with a series of fans installed".
Candy


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

wow!


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

divingne1 said:


> Panther chameleons are beautiful chameleons and after researching their care and husbandry requirements myself, I joined Chameleon Forums As a matter of fact, you can go there are read my post on "why a glass tank isn't an ideal enclosure for chameleons...even with a series of fans installed".
> Candy


Do you have a link to it and/or are you the same user name on that board. My previous panther chameleon was in an enclosure that was a corner tank that was acrylic on the two wall sides and screen on the entire front. I had a fan that blew in from the top of the enclosure and he loved it for almost 7 years.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Yes I have the same user name divingne1
Candy


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

iridebmx said:


> wow!



Do you have any experience with this that would be useful??


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

divingne1 said:


> Yes I have the same user name divingne1
> Candy



Thanks, I'll check it out. A friend of mine pointed me to that forum a few weeks ago. It is a very nice forum.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> Do you have any experience or information that would help me out other then just your opinion??? I'm really not asking for anyone's endorsement but rather if they have any insight from experience.


You are asking about mixing species from parts of the globe that are incredibly different from one another, with equally different husbandry requirements. What do you think the insights will be? Neither species' needs will be met and will likely result in the death of one or more. 

From my understanding, the larger chams need screen enclosures for both ventilation and to minimize stress. If you like chams that would be suitable in a tropical vivarium setting, the pygmy leaf chams are quite cool; however, they are still not mixable with PDFs.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

flyangler18 said:


> You are asking about mixing species from parts of the globe that are incredibly different from one another, with equally different husbandry requirements. What do you think the insights will be? Neither species' needs will be met and will likely result in the death of one or more.
> 
> From my understanding, the larger chams need screen enclosures for both ventilation and to minimize stress. If you like chams that would be suitable in a tropical vivarium setting, the pygmy leaf chams are quite cool; however, they are still not mixable with PDFs.


Excellent. That is very helpful info and is appreciated.


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## Leucomelas18 (Jun 12, 2008)

I have successfully raised leuc's and golden day geckos in the same tank. They never bothered each other and they both lived off of FF. I also made sure that they had plenty of room to move and separate areas to get away if they even did get stressed out. I am not sure though if chameleons would work or not with PDF's. Some species might do better than others.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

divingne1 said:


> Yes I have the same user name divingne1
> Candy


They have some really good points in your thread on the cham website. I really found the UB light issue interesting. That really would not be an issue with what I was thinking of doing because I would have a ventilated top. Either way it is looking like the combo is out. I have a nice 3'X3'X1 1/2' H set up that I was using for beraded dragons. I could put a nice tall screen top on and setup a sweet cham enclsure in that.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Chameleons are solitary animals. They prefer being in well ventillated vivs. Depending on the species depends on the requirements of that specific species. 

Any species that isn't a dwarf is out of the questions. First they will try to eat the frogs if big enough or they will become stressed and die, and this is if they don't die before hand due to the improper setup.

The dwarf species in the other hand maybe able to deal with higher humidity and will probably become stressed.

Chameleons are hard enough to keep in some respect and should only be kept singly or in pairs depending on the species.

So basically if you mix chameleons and darts you have a very high probability of death. Hopefully I don't sound harsh, but its just the way it is with these creatures.

Certain species of small gecko will probably fair much much better.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Keep in mind also that the chameleon is a much larger animal then the pdfs. Even if you could keep them contained in a viv that would meet the needs of both, which is not possible unless your making a viv the size of a room, the stress to the frogs as they see and can't escape the range of this relative in size "monster" would be tremendous.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

and..and....and then, you build a nice water feature and put a nice little _Paleosuchus palpebrosus_ or two in it.....

I could write a paragraph on Chameleons I have kept and my opinions on why 95% of all such animals would not do well in a high humidity environ......but I already know you don't want to hear my opinions 


We will be friends one day Jel....really we will !


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> Keep in mind also that the chameleon is a much larger animal then the pdfs. Even if you could keep them contained in a viv that would meet the needs of both, which is not possible unless your making a viv the size of a room, the stress to the frogs as they see and can't escape the range of this relative in size "monster" would be tremendous.


That's a really good point. The looming presence of the chameleon over their heads.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> and..and....and then, you build a nice water feature and put a nice little _Paleosuchus palpebrosus_ or two in it.....
> 
> I could write a paragraph on Chameleons I have kept and my opinions on why 95% of all such animals would not do well in a high humidity environ......but I already know you don't want to hear my opinions
> 
> ...


You and I butted heads once about something. I can't even remember what it was(guess it probably wasn't important)....and I've never held it against you in any way. I think we are actually pretty similar to be honest. I could see you two making friendly

Your right about the chameleons and the humidity. I think really all animals would prefer fresh air of some sort given it's properly humidified.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Philsuma said:


> and..and....and then, you build a nice water feature and put a nice little _Paleosuchus palpebrosus_ or two in it.....
> 
> I could write a paragraph on Chameleons I have kept and my opinions on why 95% of all such animals would not do well in a high humidity environ......but I already know you don't want to hear my opinions
> 
> ...


Just please keep it constructive and informative. I thought about geckos but I've never really been into geckos.


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## Jerseyzuks (Dec 6, 2008)

I bred Veiled Chameleons both when I lived in NJ, and when I lived in FL

There was a serious learning curve in the begining, mostly because 15 years ago there was not that much knowledge out there about old world chameleons, and much of the info that was available was through outdated books. 

Originally, I read and was told that veiled chameleons needed extremely high humidity, and should be kept in vivariums that were similar to our frogs... including the substrate. Through heartbreaking trial and error, dead chameleons, and a lot of vet money, I can tell you that it won't work. 

The high humidity environment and little air flow leads to respitory issues. Using a mulch type substrate will lead to bowel obstructions, because the mulch will stick to their tounge when hunting. 

The best my chameleons ever did was in no enclosure at all. They lived on my balcony in Florida, on ficus trees that were in deep planters. They got all of the sunlight and fresh air they needed, and grew rapidly. 

Chameleons are not rain forest creatures, and can not be kept as such


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Another issue with keeping chameleons in vivariums with substrate of any kind is that they can become 'impacted' while hunting prey, the tongue essentially grabbing substrate material and whipping it back into the mouth only to become lodged in the airway 

Bill


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

With a viv of that size, have you thought about doing a Madagascar viv, possibly with mantellas and Brookesia chameleons? I recall seeing some pics on here (or possibly another forum) of a viv that mixed the two, maybe 2-3 years ago. I believe they fed FFs and small crickets, and both thrived and reproduced.


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## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

Definitely 100% no on any species of chameleon except Brookesia, and possibly Rhampholeon (now Rieppeleon). Any other genus will FOR SURE try to eat the frogs.

Personally, I'd recommend some gold dust day geckos. They're active and beautiful just like the frogs are, and the fruit puree you'd feed them would keep fruit flies in the tank.

If you're dead set on chameleons:

Adcham Species Profile Database

There are some Brookesia care sheets. Good luck.

Make sure the frogs are larger than the head of the chameleons though! Some people might tell you to go with Mantellas if you are going to keep Brookesia because they are both from Madagascar, however, some Brookesia can get big enough to eat some small Mantellas. Chameleons will even go for other chameleons smaller than them (though the dwarf species are better at being communal than the others).


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

Originally, I read and was told that veiled chameleons needed extremely high humidity, and should be kept in vivariums that were similar to our frogs... including the substrate. Through heartbreaking trial and error, dead chameleons, and a lot of vet money, I can tell you that it won't work. 

The high humidity environment and little air flow leads to respitory issues. Using a mulch type substrate will lead to bowel obstructions, because the mulch will stick to their tounge when hunting. 



I have kept chameleons on and off for the past 12 years or so and can 100% agree with what you said. I too was told and read they need high hunidity and lost so many baby veils. I had some die from respiratory problems, some from inpaction other got infections. Very discouraging and heartbreaking. Plus the cost of bringing them to the vet is insane.

Anyways I have not had extensive luck keeping chameleons unless if they are kept in 100% ventilatied cages. The veil I have now is a year and half and doing quite well.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Adcham Species Profile Database

What a great site and one that somehow escaped my searches and bookmarks.

Thank you!

..and.....thanks for the great Chameleon advice. I was going to post (of course) but you guys covered everything nicely.

or are they calling them "Chams" theses days?

Crickets.....Crix.... .Ah....the text generation....lol


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

I have kept "chams" for over 10 years now and am currently breeding panther chameleons. I am Jerm on chameleon forums and most other cham or herp forum. I used to go on there before there were a lot of younger members who like to waste time on posts, but there is a lot of good info on there. The best forum was CCIN which isn't around anymore, I heard it might come back eventually. Check out the chameleon e-zine by Chris Anderson: Chameleons! Online E-Zine. Look into some of their old issues for Rieppeleon brevicaudatus setups and you will notice that it is similar to pdfs. I know Chris, he has done a lot of research over the years and has great information. Adcham has been around for years, good info but not completely updated. Panthers and veileds would not be good candidates for a viv type setup, one of the problems that you would have that I haven't heard described on here yet is that they love to try to eat shiny objects, which most darts can be shiny. I have had many of them try to eat rings and earrings while I was holding them.I think that this is due to them drinking droplets of water off of leaves, they are constantly looking for this. They would even try to eat things that were reflecting in the glass because it was shiny. Another problem that they have is that they are a solitary animal and are stressed out by others of their kind except for breeding which is usually only for a week or two when the female is showing receptive coloration, and they will constantly see their reflection in the glass which will make them try to avoid the "other chameleon" that they see. I have a screen cage that I built to fit on top of a 70 gallon tank that is setup for a chameleon because I wanted a live tree for it to live in that was planted in the cage. The tank is almost half full of soil and the tree grows up into the screen cage. The cham spends almost all of its time in the screen portion of the enclosure, and I have noticed her seeing her reflection when she goes down into the lower tank part. Veileds are from Yemen which isn't a high humidity environment. They will have respiratory problems and can get a fungus on the skin from the humidity. If you insist on putting a cham with darts, brevicaudatus is the only readily available one that I would say might do ok with them in a large enough enclosure.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Brock said:


> Definitely 100% no on any species of chameleon except Brookesia, and possibly Rhampholeon (now Rieppeleon). Any other genus will FOR SURE try to eat the frogs.
> 
> Personally, I'd recommend some gold dust day geckos. They're active and beautiful just like the frogs are, and the fruit puree you'd feed them would keep fruit flies in the tank.
> 
> ...



I'm definitely going to get another paradalis but it will definitely not be with the frogs. I'm going to go ahead with the screen build on a current setup that will work perfectly.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Jerm,

Thanks for that post. I did not know about the attraction to objects that glisten or shine. Very interesting.

I read that Chameleon 'zine all the time. It is very good.

I just got back from the largest "pet" store here in central PA. They are selling those 1/2 screen tops that fit on top of a glass tank. That seems to be a really good feature that is finally being mass produced.

I will be in Orlando the end of this month. Can I check out your collection.

You know all about the invasive Veiled Chameleon populations in South west Florida, I assume. I caught a really really large male. So odd to see a "real" Chameleon in FL....


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Jerm,
> I will be in Orlando the end of this month. Can I check out your collection.
> 
> You know all about the invasive Veiled Chameleon populations in South west Florida, I assume. I caught a really really large male. So odd to see a "real" Chameleon in FL....


Sure, send me a pm and let me know the dates. I have heard about the veileds, me and a couple of people off of the chameleon forums were going to go out an look but i've heard they are hard to find. I hear there is a colony of them near Fort Meyers. I had someone bring me a female jacksons that they found in there yard near Orlando, but it was alone, probably just a released pet.


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## Brock (Jun 29, 2007)

Jellyman,

Cool! The Ambilobe, Ankaramy and blue bar Ambanja locales are my favorites. Do you know which locale you'll be getting? There are a ton of breeders in the US, I've always been jealous of your chameleon selection down there.

For some shopping around:

Chameleons: Chameleons for sale,Panther Chameleon Breeders: Kammerflage Kreations (my personal fav)
Panther Chameleon For Sale, Buy Chameleons, Panther Chameleons For Sale (close second)

I would still recommend the dwarf chams if you're making your 300g vivarium, they are very interesting.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Brock said:


> Jellyman,
> 
> Cool! The Ambilobe, Ankaramy and blue bar Ambanja locales are my favorites. Do you know which locale you'll be getting? There are a ton of breeders in the US, I've always been jealous of your chameleon selection down there.
> 
> ...



I am looking into a CB RED BAR AMBILOBE. I had a blue bar Ambanja and he was awesome.


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## Jerm (May 20, 2008)

Check out this male ambilobe that I picked up last month..
















He doesn't even have his adult coloration yet. I am breeding blue bar ambanjas. Won't have any babies again until the end of the year though.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

sweet panther!!! the males are great, but you look at a female the wrong way and she will drop dead on you.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brock said:


> Make sure the frogs are larger than the head of the chameleons though! Some people might tell you to go with Mantellas if you are going to keep Brookesia because they are both from Madagascar, however, some Brookesia can get big enough to eat some small Mantellas. [\QUOTE]
> 
> This rule of thumb should be considered exactly that a rule of thumb. If the chameleon can manipulate the prey species around to get it into thier mouth to eat it they will. One of the Zoos tried housing Parsons with Adult Standing's Day geckos only to have the Parsons zap the geckos right off the walls and eat them.
> 
> ...


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Things that get stuffed in mouths.....

I have seen several large to medium sized Chameleons in free range enclosures, in Fl, stalk, catch and comsume brown anolis that were certainly longer, SVL, if not broader than their head.

They did have to manipulate the anolis and it took some time, but it was interesting to watch.

Also, a large Cuban tree frog will stuff prey items of virtually any kind in it's mouth and will do the same thing....keep repositioning the prey or even snapping off the tail somehow.

They were Large brown Anoles too....none of that _Distichus _stuff...


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

speaking of things to big going in mouths 
craig 
yea it moves they eat them , used green tree frogs anoles house geckos and other geckos as feeders from time to time.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Wow....Phasmid sammich.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Jerm,
> 
> Thanks for that post. I did not know about the attraction to objects that glisten or shine. Very interesting.
> 
> ...


befor my grandpa moved to oklahoma he lived in florida and one morning he went in his backyard and he saw a big chameleon sitting right on his fence


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Did he live near Ft Myers on the gulf coast?


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Ed said:


> Our first male was about six years old when we got him and he lasted another 4 years.
> Ed


I was researching Chams for a bit and really wanted a male Sambava but decided against it after reading their about their short life spans. It is good to hear that they sometimes can live past 8 years. 
Candy


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

flyangler18 said:


> Chameleons are Old World, PDFs are New World.
> 
> I can't endorse it, but you'll no doubt do what you want.


Jason, Humans are Old World, PDFs are New World......Perhaps we shouldn't mix the two!!

Should we only use New World plants in our terrariums? Respectfully, Richard in Staten Island.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> Jason, Humans are Old World, PDFs are New World......Perhaps we shouldn't mix the two!!


I agree. A human, even a small juvenile, would out-compete the frog for food not to mention the bullying that would undoubtably occur.


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## heatfreakk3 (Oct 15, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Did he live near Ft Myers on the gulf coast?


he lived in flortlauderdale. i most likly speelled it wrong though


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## sageghost (Jan 12, 2009)

Here is the link to that thread on Chameleon Forums. 

Have a question regarding husbandry - Chameleon Forums




Jellyman said:


> Do you have a link to it and/or are you the same user name on that board. My previous panther chameleon was in an enclosure that was a corner tank that was acrylic on the two wall sides and screen on the entire front. I had a fan that blew in from the top of the enclosure and he loved it for almost 7 years.


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

Woodsman said:


> Jason, Humans are Old World, PDFs are New World......Perhaps we shouldn't mix the two!!


Very true, Richard.  Whenever these threads about mixed species enclosures arise, I always like to point out that if it is to be attempted, the keeper should _at the very least _keep things zoogeographically correct.

Ed has an excellent thread on the topic and I link to it often: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

divingne1 said:


> I was researching Chams for a bit and really wanted a male Sambava but decided against it after reading their about their short life spans. It is good to hear that they sometimes can live past 8 years.
> Candy


Panthers if well cared for have a pretty good life span. I liked the old male the best, he would come over and take crickets, mealworms and pinks right from your hand. Our current two have no interest in hand feeding and I'm not about to shorten thier rations to get them to come over to feed. 

Ed


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

I think I will eventually break down and get a Chameleon but I won't until I know I can properly house and care for them so they will have a better chance to live a long healthy life (funny I called the panther cham a leopard cham in my post someone linked...DUHHH). It will probably end up being a Sambava or A Red Barred Ambilobe. My preference will always be a male. 
Candy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

divingne1 said:


> I think I will eventually break down and get a Chameleon but I won't until I know I can properly house and care for them so they will have a better chance to live a long healthy life (funny I called the panther cham a leopard cham in my post someone linked...DUHHH). It will probably end up being a Sambava or A Red Barred Ambilobe. My preference will always be a male.
> Candy


etymology pardus = panther/leopard 

Ed


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

My friend Sean got my interest sparked into getting another panther chameleon last year when we spoke about the reptile show in Germany. I finally had a captive born male shipped in from San Diego two weeks ago. Just thought I would share a few pics:


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Wow - that is a good looking fella.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Your not worried about impaction w/ a sand substrate? Are you hand feeding him?
Setup looks awesome. I wish mine looked that nice when I had chams. Wow nice custom glass tank too. Hard to find those odd sizes!


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## Ep3Drew (Feb 10, 2009)

One good point not brought up yet is that just about all non pygmy chams are poop machines and thier poop is bigger than an average PDF..
There has been some threads on the cham forums about PDFs + pygmys (R. Brev) but from keeping a few pygmys i would say the chance for interaction is too high.. They are aboreal but not as much as other chams, they dont venture too far from the ground and sometimes take a stroll to another plant via the ground.. 
if the tank is too large (ie: 300gal) it would be very difficult for them to find food and would be very difficult for the keeper to find them pygs themselves..

btw some beautiful chams here.. heres my juvi blue bar


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

frogfarm said:


> Your not worried about impaction w/ a sand substrate? Are you hand feeding him?
> Setup looks awesome. I wish mine looked that nice when I had chams. Wow nice custom glass tank too. Hard to find those odd sizes!


Thanks, he seems to be right at home in the ficus.

It's actually crushed walnut shell and is digestable but he eats out of a feeding cup so he is not hunting on the ground anyway. 

I had a friend build the tank for me and I built the screened enclosure part for the top.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Ep3Drew said:


> One good point not brought up yet is that just about all non pygmy chams are poop machines and thier poop is bigger than an average PDF..
> There has been some threads on the cham forums about PDFs + pygmys (R. Brev) but from keeping a few pygmys i would say the chance for interaction is too high.. They are aboreal but not as much as other chams, they dont venture too far from the ground and sometimes take a stroll to another plant via the ground..
> if the tank is too large (ie: 300gal) it would be very difficult for them to find food and would be very difficult for the keeper to find them pygs themselves..
> 
> ...


Nice looking cham. I had a blue bar about 8 years ago. They are very pretty. I decided not to try and attempt a frog/cham display. Figured it would freak out the frogs too much with the cham looming overhead.


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