# Confused about Ivomec/ivermectin



## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

OK so I had 3 leucs for over a year, and one of them was always really skinny but seemingly healthy. He ate and was very active but was always small. I posted pics quite a while ago but nobody seemed concerned. I just figured that he was the runt of the litter.

Anyway, he died about 2 months ago and now within the last month one of my other leucs has gotten skinny insanely fast. Again he eats but just gets skinnier. I have been using fenbendazole to dust the flies once per week for the past 3 weeks with no effect. Anyway, I want to try and use some ivomec that my dad uses on his homing pigeons but I cant figure out how to dilute it.

I know that the doseage is 0.2 mg/kg for ivomec. So hypothetically if a frog weighs 2.8 grams how would you figure out the ivomec to distilled water ratio?


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

I wish I could help with your question, but I can't. I have a very small leuc, also, and I just seperated him from the others today. He eats, but he is less than half the size of the others. I am considering worming him.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Yeah, Mine is skin and bones.
Good luck with your leuc.

What are you going to use?


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

Yeah, math is a tricky bastard.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

0.2 mg/1000g = X/2.8g, so you'd need .00056 mg for the frog. To dilute it I think you'd need .56mg of the drug and 1000mg of water, then dose the frog with 1 mg of the mix. Someone needs to verify this because I don't do meds and don't have the experience to say that's 100% correct.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

The answer is E. Not enough information provided.

Okay... You are assuming that the frog weighs 2.8 grams. (Did you weigh it?) If it does indeed weigh 2.8 grams, that means it is 2.8/1000 kilograms. (there are 1000 grams per kilogram - kilo = one thousand)
So the frog weighs 0.0028 grams. If your dose is accurate, the frog needs 0.0028 kg x 0.2mg/kg of medicine. The kilograms on the denometer and numerator cancel out, so the frog needs .00056 mg of medicine.

Now here's the kicker... what concentration is the Ivomec you have access to?

Assuming your information is correct, we can come up with a dose, but to come up with a proper dilution we must know the original concentration.

Then... what will you dilute it with? And how will you administer it? What is the difference in absorption depending upon what route you choose to utilize for administration and the active and inactive ingredients you cut the drug with? This is interesting to me. Let me know what you come up with.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

Oh yeah.... dumb question, but did you ever have a fecal run to see if the problem is parasitic? If it is worms (which you obviously meant to cure with the Ivomec,) why didn't the fenbendazole alleviate the signs?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Then... what will you dilute it with?


Distilled water if I'm understanding this correctly:



> So hypothetically if a frog weighs 2.8 grams how would you figure out the ivomec to distilled water ratio?


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Locke said:


> The answer is E. Not enough information provided.
> 
> Okay... You are assuming that the frog weighs 2.8 grams. (Did you weigh it?)


 Not yet. I just saw that weight for another leuc when I was searching for info. I was only using it as a hypothetical for now to better understand the mixing process. My dad has a digital Gem scale around here somewhere but I can't find it untill he comes home.




> Now here's the kicker... what concentration is the Ivomec you have access to?


0.08% solution



> Assuming your information is correct, we can come up with a dose, but to come up with a proper dilution we must know the original concentration.
> 
> Then... what will you dilute it with? And how will you administer it? What is the difference in absorption depending upon what route you choose to utilize for administration and the active and inactive ingredients you cut the drug with? This is interesting to me. Let me know what you come up with


.

I'll dilute it with some R/O water and place a drop on the back of the frog unless somebody knows something better. BTW, I was mistaken, it is the sheep formula not the cow formula. Not sure if there is a difference.

Yeah, I got up to the 0.0028 part but then I got confused. To many years and a severe concusion since my last math class. :lol: 

I'll try to get a weight on the Frog ASAP.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

Fair enough. Doesn't really answer the rest of the questions though. Also, is Ivomec stable is distilled water?

We crossed paths. This response was actually aimed toward defaced.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Locke said:


> Oh yeah.... dumb question, but did you ever have a fecal run to see if the problem is parasitic? If it is worms (which you obviously meant to cure with the Ivomec,) why didn't the fenbendazole alleviate the signs?


To be honest it all just happened so fast I have not yet done so. it seemed that the frog gained a little bit of weight in the beginning but then lost the weight again. He litterally went from a fat, happy frog to a skinny frog in 1 month. During which time I began using fenbendazole. I'm just afraid that if I 
wait for a fecal he will be dead before I get the results. He is still pretty active though.

Anybody know of a qualified vet in the phoenix-metro area?


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

oops. tried to answer the question aimed at defaced.
Thanks for the quick replies.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

I guess my next question would be - how much of the Ivomec applied to the back of a frog is actively absorbed? If it is only 20% then you would have to times the amount applied by 5. This is only an example (and I am not suggesting in anyway that I know the absorption of topically applied Ivomec in amphibians.)


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Man, this is much more complicated than i thought. 

Anobody know how we could figure out the absobtion rate in DF's?


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

No need to appologize, polliwog, in fact the question you last quoted was indeed aimed at you.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Locke said:


> Fair enough. Doesn't really answer the rest of the questions though. Also, is Ivomec stable is distilled water?
> 
> We crossed paths. This response was actually aimed toward defaced.


I meant this quote. I started to rply then realized my mistake.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

Paul E. Wog said:


> Man, this is much more complicated than i thought.
> 
> Anobody know how we could figure out the absobtion rate in DF's?


Ask a qualified vet.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I think this is for me:


> Fair enough. Doesn't really answer the rest of the questions though. Also, is Ivomec stable is distilled water?
> 
> We crossed paths. This response was actually aimed toward defaced.


I haven't the slightest clue. Wouldn't the bottle say what it's diluted with since it's .08% and not a concentrate?

Would it be safest to err on the side of caution and assume the frog can asorb 100% of the meds, or is it possible for the parasite to form a tolerance for it if applied in too small of a dose?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Ask a qualified vet.


And there's one who works in the hobby, shoot an email Dr. Frye's way: http://www.fryebrothersfrogs.com/page3.htm


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

I play poker and can't really think of any safe assumptions.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Good point. If you've got an assistant, it's possible to give the meds orally, that would solve the absorption problem. I've seen pictures of how to hold a frog to administer meds, but can't think of the site they're on.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

defaced said:


> Good point. If you've got an assistant, it's possible to give the meds orally, that would solve the absorption problem. I've seen pictures of how to hold a frog to administer meds, but can't think of the site they're on.


I think I could pull that off. I can administer oral meds to a very hesitant homing pigeon by myself. So I could handle that with a little help. I was just reading an article about an african clawed frog having it administered through a water bowl.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

Original Messgae Deleted.

It turns out I was just repeating some unfounded rumors told to me by biased individuals.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

deleted


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Yeah thats kind of a can of worms that shouldnt be opened again.
He's an honest guy to the best of my knowlege


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

Deleted.


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## Guest (May 7, 2006)

I was just made aware of the war that occured between the XXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXX. I would like to say that my earlier statements were not of my own experience or opinion, but just what had been told to me by people I met at a herp show and seemed nice.

Edited.


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Well I treated the frog with the ivermectin the day before yesterday and he has litterally doubled his weight in that short amount of time.
Amazing how resilient they are. he's still bony, but he is getting a little belly that he previously never had and he acts super active.


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

My recollection is that Ivomec (the brand name labeled for pigs and cattle) is at a 1% concentration. That's 1 g ivermection per 100 mls liquid. So 10mg per ml. 
You would need an extraordinary small amount for your frog at .2 mg/kg so some serial dilution would be in order. I'm sure there are other Ivomec concerntrations, so go based on the whatever concentration you're using.

Next question. Are you sure parasites are the problem? Do you know if it's one that Ivermectin would help? Ivomec would get some of the strongylid worms. I don't think it will even touch tapes and coccidia species. That's why fecals are recommended. 
Additionally, if it is a partasite issue, the other frogs are most likely infected and so is the tank. Treatment may help temporarily, but they will most lilkey infect themself afterward. 
Best of luck.
John


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

I'm going to throw away the old tank and start over. Both frogs the sick and healthy one will be in sepparate quarentine for about a month before being put into another tank. I am in the process of collecting feces to have fecals run.

But like I said the frog started gaining wait in just two days after treatment. Literally doubling his weight apearance wise, so the Ivermectin seems to have definately helped. The frog is also super active now. 

The ivomec that I had was an 8% sollution and yes I had to dilute it a lot. Something like 1/3rd of a gallon to 3ml of ivomec. I have the exact mesurements around here somewhere but can't find them now, but that doesnt really matter because it will vary based on the weight of the frog.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Paul E. Wog said:


> To be honest it all just happened so fast I have not yet done so. it seemed that the frog gained a little bit of weight in the beginning but then lost the weight again. He litterally went from a fat, happy frog to a skinny frog in 1 month. During which time I began using fenbendazole. I'm just afraid that if I
> wait for a fecal he will be dead before I get the results. He is still pretty active though.
> 
> Anybody know of a qualified vet in the phoenix-metro area?


Here are two vets a search turned up....both work with herps so they may or may not have experience with amphibians...

Sheri Sabo, DVM
Alta Vista Veterinary Hospital
4730 N. 7th Avenue
Phoenix, AZ 85013
Tel: 602-277-1464
Fax: 602-241-1548

Michail J. Kiedrowski, DVM
Mountain View Animal Hospital
9812 North 7th Street #1
Phoenix, AZ 85020
Tel: (602) 861-1355

Unless one has experience with diagnosing frog disease and subsequent medication, your best bet is working with a vet (locally or someone like Dr. Frye). Otherwise you may do more damage than good. Wrong dose, dosage form, schedule can turn a beneficial medicine into a toxin. Also the incorrect diagnosis and inappropriate medication may increase your problem.

Good luck.

Bill


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Thanks Bill I'll give them a call.


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## AZDR_A (Mar 20, 2004)

University Animal Hospital- 480-968-9275

Dr. Kevin Wright is our vet and Dr. Jay Johnson also works on exotics in the same office.

Good luck!


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## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

Awesome, thanks Amanda.


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