# manure



## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

I can't believe how many times I keep asking this question and keep getting no answer, but if there is manure present in the vivarium, and it's covered in leaf litter and/or moss, will it pose any health problem? I really can't say that any more straight forward.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

pure manure...unaged... can burn plant roots, so yes it can be a problem


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## mrfrogdude (Jun 26, 2011)

I just read your other post and it has been answered very clearly.....what else do you want? A fight perhaps? Quit creating threads for no reason...


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

How was it answered clearly? I asked more about it and got a comepletly different answer from Ed, someone that really knows what they're talking about. No, it's not pure manure, it was organic potting soil, but I covered up the potting soil (the plants were in it) and convered it with a good 2 inches of ABG.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Succinctly.

I sincerely doubt anything other than frog manure would be a good idea.

Clear enough?

s


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Leaf litter and moss will not form an impermeable seal to keep out pathogens. If a springtail can crawl through it a virus can definitely migrate through it.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> Leaf litter and moss will not form an impermeable seal to keep out pathogens. If a springtail can crawl through it a virus can definitely migrate through it.


What if I don't use springtails? I don't have any in, and haven't seen any mold for a few months....


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

What part of this are you NOT GETTING?

We are ALL saying no, not a good idea.

Do you understand?

s


johnyrocks said:


> What if I don't use springtails? I don't have any in, and haven't seen any mold for a few months....


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## mrfrogdude (Jun 26, 2011)

That doesn't change the fact that pathogens can spread throughout the viv...springs or no springs.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> What part of this are you NOT GETTING?
> 
> We are ALL saying no, not a good idea.
> 
> ...


If I re read the tiny print on a crumbled up organic potting soil bag 2 months ago before I put everything in, I wouldn't even be asking this. I'm saying i've already built the tank and it's growing with plants for 2 months. THATS why i'm asking, to see if I really need to undo months of work.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

mrfrogdude said:


> That doesn't change the fact that pathogens can spread throughout the viv...springs or no springs.


So are you saying I will have to tear everything out to get rid of the soil, no matter what i do?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yay! You get it.

Yes. Good place for the stuff might be the compost bin.

s


johnyrocks said:


> So are you saying I will have to tear everything out to get rid of the soil, no matter what i do?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

I meant that there will be plenty of spaces for pathogens to migrate to the upper layers, springtails were just to give an idea of scale (if springs can fit through, something 1/1000th their size can definitely fit through). Essentially what I was saying is that it doesn't matter what you put on top, any pathogens present can get through. If you wrapped a dead mouse in some moss and put it in your fridge, you probably wouldn't want to eat the lettuce right next to it, but if you put that same mouse in a ziplock bag, you might not be as worried about eating the lettuce...dead mouse=manure, you=frogs...hope that is more clear.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Yes you guys have cleared everything up much more clear, I tore out the substrate and plantsand re did it. Plants probably didnt like it, but its for the frogs


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You did that in 20 minutes?

s


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> You did that in 20 minutes?
> 
> s


Yes? It's not that hard, I had some extra ABG laying around That I bought recently, and i just took the plants out and put the stuff back in, and I did the substrate by ripping it all out and putting new stuff back in, it felt like 5 minutes...


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

johnyrocks said:


> Yes? It's not that hard, I had some extra ABG laying around That I bought recently, and i just took the plants out and put the stuff back in, and I did the substrate by ripping it all out and putting new stuff back in, it felt like 5 minutes...


do you have a false bottom, or some type of drainage layer?


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> do you have a false bottom, or some type of drainage layer?


Yes, of course
forgot, why does that matter?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Scott said:


> You did that in 20 minutes?
> 
> s


Haha I thought the exact same thing...

Did you sanitize everything before you rebuilt the tank? Just because the manure has been removed does not mean that its clean. You may want to clean the tank, plants, and false bottom...just to be safe.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

omg O.O .


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Haste gets you nowhere dude.

s


johnyrocks said:


> omg O.O


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Scott said:


> Haste gets you nowhere dude.
> 
> s


You know from hearing all of this, I think it would just be best for me to start over unfortonatly. You are right, rushing does get no one no where. Ugh. I really wish I just did everything correct in the first place.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

johnyrocks said:


> omg O.O .


Dude, I wasn't trying to be a jerk...I was really trying to help. I'm not sure you understand the persistence of pathogens. Would you lick a doorknob in a public bathroom if it looked clean? Just because you can't see a virus or bacterium doesn't mean it's not there. Just thinking pragmatically, darts aren't cheap, it makes sense to do your best to keep them healthy or you are throwing your money away. I truly find it hard to believe your claim that you redid your viv in so little time, especially on the same day your honesty has been called into question.


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

johnyrocks said:


> You know from hearing all of this, I think it would just be best for me to start over unfortonatly. You are right, rushing does get no one no where. Ugh. I really wish I just did everything correct in the first place.


that sucks, but we've all been there (or nearly all of us).......you're in a hurry to redo a tank or get the frogs, and then you have to spend more time doing something.......it's better to go slow, but it's hard to wait!


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

johnyrocks said:


> You are right, rushing does get no one no where. Ugh. I really wish I just did everything correct in the first place.


Thy clouds hath parted and thine angels sang,hallelujah...


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> Dude, I wasn't trying to be a jerk...I was really trying to help. I'm not sure you understand the persistence of pathogens. Would you lick a doorknob in a public bathroom if it looked clean? Just because you can't see a virus or bacterium doesn't mean it's not there. Just thinking pragmatically, darts aren't cheap, it makes sense to do your best to keep them healthy or you are throwing your money away. I truly find it hard to believe your claim that you redid your viv in so little time, especially on the same day your honesty has been called into question.


I didn't redo my whole viv, yet. It really doesn't take that long to take the plants out and change the substrate, but since i'm probably going to have to redo it anyways, it doesn't matter anymore. Oh yeah and forgot to mention, a bathroom doorhandle has just as much bacteria as one to your bedroom LOL


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

lincolnrailers said:


> that sucks, but we've all been there (or nearly all of us).......you're in a hurry to redo a tank or get the frogs, and then you have to spend more time doing something.......it's better to go slow, but it's hard to wait!


Or the fourth time, for me. lol. I'm not kidding either.


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

johnyrocks said:


> I didn't redo my whole viv, yet. It really doesn't take that long to take the plants out and change the substrate, but since i'm probably going to have to redo it anyways, it doesn't matter anymore.


I know it sucks having to redo it, but in the end its worth it. My first dart frog viv was all wrong and I ended up losing all my frogs (this was about 6 years ago before I knew about DB). I have spent hours and hours making vivs only to find something I did wrong (frickin waterfalls!) and have to tear everything apart, sometimes more than once, so I understand where you are coming from. It doesn't take long to set up a temp viv, so if you just can't wait to get some frogs just set up a simple tank and take your time building your permanent viv. I really like your 20L btw.
Side note: there's no way my doorknob has more bacteria, I wipe that joker with lysol wipes all the time, yes ocd sucks


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> I know it sucks having to redo it, but in the end its worth it. My first dart frog viv was all wrong and I ended up losing all my frogs (this was about 6 years ago before I knew about DB). I have spent hours and hours making vivs only to find something I did wrong (frickin waterfalls!) and have to tear everything apart, sometimes more than once, so I understand where you are coming from. It doesn't take long to set up a temp viv, so if you just can't wait to get some frogs just set up a simple tank and take your time building your permanent viv. I really like your 20L btw.
> Side note: there's no way my doorknob has more bacteria, I wipe that joker with lysol wipes all the time, yes ocd sucks


It's all good now. Actually when I put my ABG mix in, I lft it open, and flies went into the tank EVERYWHERE. So i'm taking everything out, and just because I didn't have a whole lot of ABG left, I couldn't fill all of my pots, so I'm baking all of my soil in the oven at 200f for an hour or so, to kill any bacteria and eggs. Hopefully i'll feel much better about everything. And thanks for liking my 20L


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

johnyrocks said:


> I didn't redo my whole viv, yet. It really doesn't take that long to take the plants out and change the substrate, but since i'm probably going to have to redo it anyways, it doesn't matter anymore. Oh yeah and forgot to mention, a bathroom doorhandle has just as much bacteria as one to your bedroom LOL


If you understand that your bathroom doorknob has just as much bacteria as the one on your bathroom door, then you do understand that the manure in your viv has contaminated EVERY SQUARE INCH of your viv and EVERYTHING in it, right?? 
I gave you very clear answers about manure in your viv a week or two ago. Your complete dismissal of the information I gave you is, well, annoying at best.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

I comepletly forgot about that, thanks for the heads up pumilo. No, I did not forget what everyone said. I will give everything a mild bleach bath (background, false bottom, plants, glass, etc) then rinse it down. I am trying my best, and i'm cooking the soils in the oven right now, then I will prepare the bleach solution, then I will rinse. Again thanks for the reminder


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Don't forget to wipe down the outside, and other things you've touched after working in there. Things like light fixture, culturing supplies, etc. Better safe than sorry.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Pumilo said:


> Better safe than sorry.


That's exactly what came to my mind when making this thread. I will wipe down everything.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Well the substrate is still cooking, i'll give it another 20 minutes. But I finished cleaning the tank up with bleach. Bleach = stinky lol. Well i'll tell you guys after I get everything rinsed in water. If after I finish that and there's still a bleach smell, what do I do?


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Alright, everything is sparkling clean! I took off a bit of peat from the GS in the process, but atleast it's clean. I really appreciate it guys. Thanks. Now just gotta wait for the soils to finish baking so I can plant.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

Alright. It's baked and oh boy was it hot and steamy! Gonna have to let it cool down. If a mod could close this thread, thx.


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## jpstod (Sep 8, 2005)

Do you all keep your frogs in a Sealed Environment with air scrubbers and UV Sterilizers?
Do you scrub into your rooms?
If not their are pathogens in the air. 

I use compost as soil in my tanks mixed with play sand. Covered with leaf litter.

My only concerns is that most "potting soil" contains perilite or other man made particles which do not decompose and can be digested


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

jpstod said:


> Do you all keep your frogs in a Sealed Environment with air scrubbers and UV Sterilizers?
> Do you scrub into your rooms?
> If not their are pathogens in the air.
> 
> ...


Very good point on the pathogens, but manure presents major pathogens darts have never been exposed to, and bacteria is an issue. I used Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil, which has no vermiculite or perlite. But here are the ingredients that I can list off the top of my head that's in it: Decomposed Wood Chips, Cow manure, Chicken manure, Peat. I think those are almost all, if not all. Doesn't compost contain more bacteria than manure though? Have you had any long term affects?


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

Manure!? I HATE manure!!!

B2TF anyone?

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

JakkBauer said:


> Manure!? I HATE manure!!!
> 
> B2TF anyone?
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


B2TF? Is that just something you couldn't find a use for but used it anyways? what does back to the future have to do with anything? lol?


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

Not trying to hijack or anything but I have a question about the poopy subject..
If you're frogs and other herps deficate everywhere and your background isn't removable and you don't wanna remove all those plants wil the springtails consume all the poo?
I have some tree frogs, anoles, and geckos and its such a pain to have to clean the tanks so often.
Will the poo pose a problem or are y'all just worried about the manure that was in the potting soil?

I've always wondered how y'all clean your vivs but PDFs poo is minute compared to my herps lol and I'm sure y'all down tear down your vivs and clean them.
Will the poo be ok in there on the plants and whatnot?
There is a few more questions but I don't wanna annoy you all with these questions lol.
If you can explain to me how y'all keep yall's vivs poo free or if the poo is ok or direct me to some threads I'd appreciate it. Or shoot me a PM
Thanks


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> Not trying to hijack or anything but I have a question about the poopy subject..
> If you're frogs and other herps deficate everywhere and your background isn't removable and you don't wanna remove all those plants wil the springtails consume all the poo?
> I have some tree frogs, anoles, and geckos and its such a pain to have to clean the tanks so often.
> Will the poo pose a problem or are y'all just worried about the manure that was in the potting soil?
> ...


The springtails won't consume ALL of it, mut the plants and springs will consume some. But the only issue, even if you wait until a year after you've seeded the viv with springs, there still is traces of the manure. In a dart vivarium, the plants and springs can easily take care of darts waste, but as for tree frogs and geckos (all heavy wasters IME) even having tons of plants and springs/isos isn't enough.


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

johnyrocks said:


> B2TF? Is that just something you couldn't find a use for but used it anyways? what does back to the future have to do with anything? lol?


Well obviously you have never seen it good sir.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

johnyrocks said:


> The springtails won't consume ALL of it, mut the plants and springs will consume some. But the only issue, even if you wait until a year after you've seeded the viv with springs, there still is traces of the manure. In a dart vivarium, the plants and springs can easily take care of darts waste, but as for tree frogs and geckos (all heavy wasters IME) even having tons of plants and springs/isos isn't enough.


So I'm stuck with cleaning vivariums every 2 weeks? -.-'
Kinda hard to clean a viv when you can't remove anything lol


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

Wow this thread is chaos. For the record, I know many guys here use miracle grow organic ( which contains aged manure). I have also used a small amount of organic powdered fert in my soil mix. Everyone seems fine. 

As for cleaning the viv, all u do is scrape the poop and junk off the glass. All the huge turds that are in the soil break down naturally. No need to clean.


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## johnyrocks (Jun 25, 2011)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So I'm stuck with cleaning vivariums every 2 weeks? -.-'
> Kinda hard to clean a viv when you can't remove anything lol


it doesn't have to be thorough cleaning, just minor poo scaping lol./


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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I also happen to know a very reputable breeder (most of you have frogs from his offspring) rarely cleans his glass even. 
You can also use a spray bottle with an adjustable stream to blast the poop blobs off the glass. It one of my favorite morning activities. Who needs an Atari?


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## JakkBauer (Jul 11, 2011)

mordoria said:


> I also happen to know a very reputable breeder (most of you have frogs from his offspring) rarely cleans his glass even.
> You can also use a spray bottle with an adjustable stream to blast the poop blobs off the glass. It one of my favorite morning activities. Who needs an Atari?


Bwahahaha this post makes me crack up! I totally have a mental picture of that .

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## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

sorry to double post but im annoyed that people compare PDF to all the other herps out there. They are like apples and oranges. I dont understand why people on here think snakes and lizards are anything like PDFs. Frogs are more similar to fish.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> So I'm stuck with cleaning vivariums every 2 weeks? -.-'


Here's my basic "cleaning" routine...

Wipe the front glass in the morning (mine vivs are fully sealed so it gets fogged easily)
Spray any "yuck" off the glass once or twice a week.
Every once in a while, I have to pull a dead leaf or two.
Once in a great while (weeks), I wipe the rest of the glass down (sides, tops of viv, etc).
Every couple of months, I drain the vivs and add some leaf litter.

Mmm...that's about it I think. It takes very little effort to maintain a viv. You'll probably spend more time feeding them each day than actually on viv maintenace.


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