# mixing species in 12x12x18 exo terra



## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

Because the kids at the local reptile store are morons. And I hope the title gets me some good responses LOL

I was sold 2 12X12X18 Exo terra terrariums and told each could house up to 3 frogs. I was also told that it was A OK to keep several species in the same tank.


So after some basic research I have come to realize this is incredibly wrong, and potentially harmful for my froggies. So this post is intended to state my current plan of action to rectify the bad situation I was sold. (Technically my fault as I based an impulse buy on a reptile store employee's advice)

So. I have 5 darts. All Different species, and all are juveniles (less than 1") that all need their own enclosure ASAP, and eventually a mate.

My plan is to devote the 2 exoterras i have to two of the frogs I have now. For the remaining 3 frogs I was wondering If I could section out a 55 gallon with 2 dividers into 3 sections?

I have an old 55 gallon that with pond foam, curing, silicon etc I could design build and scape out in about 10 to 14days?

Is the 55 gal a viable option, or should I just do more 12X12X18s?

As they mature and I can sex them, is is going to be possible to round up 5 mates for these guys? (4 dendrobates and a Phyllobate)


I want to keep them all, but not at a cost to them? can I do this? Please help me...


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## harrisbt (Feb 19, 2013)

You don't want water moving between the three sections of the 55gal tank. Water can spread the nasties between the sections. You'd need a damn good sealant and barrier between each. 

What you can do is get some plastic tubs (ones with latching lids), long fiber sphagnum moss, magnolia leaf litter, and vining/creeping, easy to care for, and fast growing plants that root easily and set your frogs up in temporary enclosures while you sort something else out.

Some things you probably want to search here on the boards (if you haven't already): temporary enclosures; froglet/grow-out tanks; plant sterilization.

Good luck, and remember to research first, buy third (after researching again second).


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

what are the specific species of the frogs?

we can make better suggestions on future cages with the specifics.

Also, best way to a temporary solution is some rubbermaid bins from home depot or something similar while you plan out the other tanks. That way you aren't in a hurry to build their permanent homes. You'll always have a use for the bins in the future from QT to froglet raising.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

What if I got 3 more 12X12x18 Exo terras? 

Based on a few 10gal vertical conversion builds, that size tank would be small, but sufficent for a pair of dendros right?

I have a leopard blue dendro

A yellow banded dendro, 

a dyeing dart frog

a sky blue dendro 

and a phyllobates vittalius?


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

Okay. So the frogs i have are;

Phyllobates vittatus

Dendrobates azureus

Dendrobates tinctorius

Dendrobates leucomelas

Dendrobates auratus

And i went back to the pet store...

And got a part time job lol. I went in and started talking to them and explain what I needed and why. 

After explaining the actual requirements for the frogs and having a pretty decent background in a reef and freshwater aquariums the owner gave me a part time job on the weekends.

They have two 24x 24x 18 used terrariums and another 12x12x18. Im going to work those off on Saturday. Then i can set them up an have a viv per frog...

How hard is it going to he to sex and find mates?


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

you may have to post a picture of the tinc, as there are a lot of morphs


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## cml1287 (Mar 29, 2012)

That's awesome you got a job out of it!

I'm curious where those names originated from though...


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

The auratus might be best kept without a mate. Many morphs can be very similar in appearance and are impossible to differentiate without knowing its history. As you already know, mixing is highly frowned upon in this hobby.

John


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Just so you know, Azureus are not a separate species.They were formally D. azureus until 2006 when they were reclassified as a morph of D. tinctorius. You still should not mix them with other D. tinctorius morphs.

Also, 12x12x18 tanks aren't ideal for any of these frogs. All of these frogs are fairly large and will do better in a tank more suited towards a terrestrial orientation. They should be okay for a bit while they're small, but something with a larger footprint will be better long-term. Both the D. leucomelas and D. auratus will appreciate more head room for climbing, something like a 20 gallon high would be appropriate.

If I were you I would go with the temporary tubs until you can procure some better tanks. There's lots of useful info in this thread: Temporary frog storage / home 

I also second what was said about not trying to find mates for frogs you don't know the specific lineage of. Unless you can be sure of the exact morph/locale you have, you shouldn't attempt to breed the frog. 

Also, if you add your location you might be able to find local froggers who are willing to help you out.

I am curious what the fine folks at the reptile shop recommended you feed and supplement with?


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

Is it okay to house them alone? In a 12x12x18? Like they wont be lonely and such?

And im feeding 2 types of fruit flys and pin head crickets. Ive ordered. Silvertails and pods from joshs frogs.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

No supplements. Though...


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Long term, not really. I reserve all of my 12x12x18 tanks for my Ranitomeya species. A standard 10 gallon or a 20 gallon high would better suit the frogs' needs. The ten gallon should be alright for a single auratus, although bigger is definitely better. A twenty gallon would be good for a pair of any of them.

John

Edit: Supplements are crucial to keeping darts! I feed my frogs every day and dust their flies with Repashy calcium plus every other feeding. I also recommend giving them Repashy vitamin A plus once a month. It sounds like you have a nice variety of feeder items, and that is awesome, but it doesn't replace the need for supplements


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## L8apex (May 2, 2014)

Those names were interesting. Your tinc must be a cobalt of some sort. That's the dyeing one, I've actually heard that before. The leopard blue auratus is new to me  just a thought but figure out who the supplier is, they should still be breeding the same morphs that you could introduce safely. Ask them first if they're lines have changed. I doubt it though. I still have my "bumblebee arrow frogs" that started it all from my LFS. I just don't morph out froglets. A lot of pet stores seem to use black jungle in my experience, I bet you can have whoever does orders get you some more once the tanks are sorted.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

FroggyKnight said:


> The auratus might be best kept without a mate. Many morphs can be very similar in appearance and are impossible to differentiate without knowing its history. As you already know, mixing is highly frowned upon in this hobby.
> 
> John





L8apex said:


> Those names were interesting. Your tinc must be a cobalt of some sort. That's the dyeing one, I've actually heard that before. The leopard blue auratus is new to me  just a thought but figure out who the supplier is, they should still be breeding the same morphs that you could introduce safely. Ask them first if they're lines have changed. I doubt it though. I still have my "bumblebee arrow frogs" that started it all from my LFS. I just don't morph out froglets. A lot of pet stores seem to use black jungle in my experience, I bet you can have whoever does orders get you some more once the tanks are sorted.



I uploaded pictures to my gallery


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## scooter7728 (Sep 1, 2014)

Why dont you just get them all their own 10 gal tanks those you can pick up at petland for like $10. At least its a start then you can hit a reptile show and piece together nicer tanks as they grow out. Exo terra tanks are nice but expensive.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

are the 12x12x18 not bigger than a 10 gallon?

I can get used and a new one with a discount this weekend. 

I may take a frog or 2 back and see if I can set up 3 or 4 12X12X18, or 3 or 4 10gallons depending on what would be best for the frogs...


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Beelzebob said:


> I uploaded pictures to my gallery


Member Profile - Dendroboard Gallery

Not to be an alarmist... but most of those frogs are in desperate need of food (and supplements). Get some bananas to slice up and make feeding stations, and get those frogs fed. That needs to be priority #1. If your local store has Repashy Calcium+ or Rep-Cal Calcium you should go out and buy it right now to use it with your very next feeding. 

Just be careful not to overfeed to the point where there are lots of extra flies in the tank as stressing out an already thin frog will likely end poorly. Feed small amounts every day (or maybe twice a day) and keep a piece of fruit in there for the flies to congregate on instead of the frog



As for the tank recommendations... most of those frogs will benefit from a larger footprint than a higher tank... so a 10 gallon horizontal (or better yet a 20H) would be better than a 12x12x18

Good luck and keep us updated please.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

So a 10 gallon is bigger than the 12x12x18? I can buy 5 of those like now!

I honestly thought that a 10 gallon was smaller


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

Also I've been feeding them 2 types of fruit flies and gut loaded pin heads all dusted in repashy vitamin A frog stuff. 

I thought they all looked emaciated


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

The P. vittatus doesn't look too bad, all the other frogs look alarmingly skinny. I'm assuming the vittatus was being kept with the others in the store? He was likely out competing the rest of the frogs for the food in the tank. Phyllobates can be very aggressive eaters. 

Are you dusting with Repashy Calcium Plus or Vitamin A? This is crucial, the vitamin A isn't _as_ important right now, and will only need to be used once or twice a month. The Calcium Plus should be used every feeding (except when you dust with vitamin A).


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Beelzebob said:


> So a 10 gallon is bigger than the 12x12x18? I can buy 5 of those like now!
> 
> I honestly thought that a 10 gallon was smaller


They are about the same, but your frogs will benifit from the extra floor space and leaf litter for foraging.

John


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Beelzebob said:


> So a 10 gallon is bigger than the 12x12x18? I can buy 5 of those like now!
> 
> I honestly thought that a 10 gallon was smaller


Volume is about the same but with frogs the usable space is more of a concern. That's why the 10 gallon is better. It's not like fish where they can swim anywhere in the tank, the frogs are stuck with where they can hop/climb.


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## L8apex (May 2, 2014)

Beelzebob said:


> So a 10 gallon is bigger than the 12x12x18? I can buy 5 of those like now!
> 
> I honestly thought that a 10 gallon was smaller


12x12x18=2592 divide by 231 to get 11.2 gallons. As mentioned though horizontal would be better for these guys.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

Okay,

So I took back the P. Vittatus and the D Leucomelas. 

I traded ones credit towards a new 18x18x18 Terrarium, and the other for another D. Azureus (Which I have not taken home yet, but soon)

The plan is to take back a 12x12x18 for more credit towards the larger one,and put the 2 Azureus' in the new 18x18x18 this weekend/ next week.

I will temporaily keep the Tinc and Auratus in alone in the remaining 12x12x18's, until I can transition each into 18x18x18 enclosures as time and $$ permits this month.

Then all my frogs will be happy, and I don't need 5 tanks LOL. I may set one up at work.


Also, I really like having a water feature/ waterfall in the viv's for the asthetics and keeping the humidity up and my live plants happy. Is that okay?

I have 4" of bioballs, .75" of pea gravel, and inch of "frog moss" (which is actually rejuvenating and greening up nicely) as my bottom. I have about 6 live plants in each setup and a water feature too.

I need to get some leaf litter.

I also just got a silver tail culture from Josh's Frogs, how do I get these little things in the tank? LOL


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

The waterfall will be more trouble than it is worth.
Do you not have any form of soil in the viv?
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...ular-helpful-beginner-discussion-threads.html
You should really read everything in that thread.


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## Itsalltender (Sep 6, 2014)

Dont mix he frogs


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

Itsalltender said:


> Dont mix he frogs


Wow, did you even read the opening post? He already knows not to mix. It would be much more helpful to others if you would read the thread before posting 

John


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

FroggyKnight said:


> Wow, did you even read the opening post? He already knows not to mix. It would be much more helpful to others if you would read the thread before posting
> 
> 
> 
> John



It's ok, you can ignore that post. He was just poking through the forum leaving quick nonsense answers to get his post count up over 25 and probably didn't realize that there is a wait period too....


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## FroggyKnight (Mar 14, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> It's ok, you can ignore that post. He was just poking through the forum leaving quick nonsense answers to get his post count up over 25 and probably didn't realize that there is a wait period too....


Ahh, gotcha. Thanks Tom, not sure why I didn't notice that. My post is still relevant though

John


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## scooter7728 (Sep 1, 2014)

So how did you make out with your frogs and tanks


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

So,

I bought the 18x18x18 and have the 2 Azureus in there.

I took the Tinc and the Auratus and completely rebuilt the 12x12x18's to be more accommodating of their needs.

I redid the ground layers to incorporate a good soil layer. I spent about $300 on live plants and ghost wood.

I made an effort to create more "terrestrial" surface area in the 2 12x12x18s. One has a "balcony" and the other has a large water fall that takes up very little ground space, but makes a nice ground area from top to bottom

I'd like to upgrade them to a 18x18x18 with a buddy eventually.

The frogs are noticeably happier. Much more active, and honestly hilarious to watch.

I will post pics tonight.

I don't know what it is, but I love my frogs. Plus the vivarium concept is extremely appealing to me.

thank all of you for handeling a big ole idiot so gently. We will all be better for it.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

Pics of the frog lairs


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## Scootin Newton (May 15, 2014)

Those are some Really NICE looking terrariums
Newton


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## highvoltagerob (Apr 14, 2012)

They are looking good! I really like the balcony, it looks like it adds a bunch of usable space.


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## Beelzebob (Sep 9, 2014)

it really does!! He loves it up there.

I let my lady design that one. I uses the foam from the 12x12x12 exo terra and cut up a 12x18 zoo med cork board.

I made a 3" ledge and the water feature, and told her to go to town. She did a really good job.


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## Slurpeesnow (Feb 13, 2014)

eating issues arrise from mixing species, they will fatten up quick..


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