# Assisting tads to hatch



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've got a clutch of vent eggs that 1 hatched out on Sunday, but 2 are still in the eggs. I'm still pretty new with vents so I'm just curious if I should try and assist these guys or just let them do it themselves. They aren't straightened out like usual when they hatch so I'm thinking maybe they're not ready to go. Any thoughts?


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

I would give them a couple days still. Some of my imi tads will take a little while longer to hatch sometimes and then if they still haven't hatched out, a very sharp, sterile razor blade and steady hands should suffice. I have yet to have any problems with them after "artificial" hatching and they all seem to do really well. 

-Matt


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for the info Matt. I really want them to do it on their own, I'm just not sure how long is too long to wait with these guys.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I have always cut my eggs the min the fist tail goes straight.. I use a pr of cuticle scissors...I slit one side of the egg then push the tad to where I just cut..it takes some practice but I have not killed one yet. Personally if it was me I would cut them... Unless that 1st tad hatched out to early.
Brian


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

You would cut them out even without the tail going straight? These guys don't have a straight tail even though the other hatched out on Sunday.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

jubjub47 said:


> You would cut them out even without the tail going straight? These guys don't have a straight tail even though the other hatched out on Sunday.


How long has it been since they where laid? I cut at 15 days...
Brian


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm unsure on the date they were laid. I found these guys while digging through the viv. The first day I found them there were 4 of them. The next couple days no changes. Then on about the 4th day I knew of them 1 was gone...I assume they transported it somewhere. Another was hatched and the other 2 still in the eggs. Seems like they should be out.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I would wait..might have been 2 .. 2 clutch eggs..if you notice the jell around them shrinking or drying out cut them but if its still plump I would not worry about it.
Brian


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for the opinion Brian.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Np man 
Brian


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I had a clutch of vent eggs that had been pulled and given to me, so obviously they were being incubated outside the tank. About half of them had hatched and the other half struggled, but couldn't seem to break through. I upped the temperature I had them at by a couple of degrees and they all hatched within an hour.

Just an idea.

Deb


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Out of curiosity , are these the first good clutch you have found from these? Have you had issues with tads dieing while still in the egg before? I only "help" them out if there tends to be issues with in-egg death. Otherwise there really is no reason to prematurely hatch out, and can in-fact lead to possible accidents when a tad takes a quick turn just as you are snipping...
Rich


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Rich Frye said:


> Out of curiosity , are these the first good clutch you have found from these? Have you had issues with tads dieing while still in the egg before? I only "help" them out if there tends to be issues with in-egg death. Otherwise there really is no reason to prematurely hatch out, and can in-fact lead to possible accidents when a tad takes a quick turn just as you are snipping...
> Rich


+1

Sometimes we do...."too much".


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for the reply Rich. This is a 1.2 group that have produced viable eggs, but I'm unsure which female laid these. They are a young group that have been laying eggs since january. I have had some tads develop in the viv that have died in the eggs and also had this happen to 3 of the first 5 eggs found in the viv.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

jubjub47 said:


> Thanks for the reply Rich. This is a 1.2 group that have produced viable eggs, but I'm unsure which female laid these. They are a young group that have been laying eggs since january. I have had some tads develop in the viv that have died in the eggs and also had this happen to 3 of the first 5 eggs found in the viv.


 
If you are having issues with tad death then by all means cut them out. If they are a young group it may or may not help. Sometimes it just takes awhile them to get their stuff together.
On a side note. I don't cut often at all. But ,you need not always wait until the tails are straight. I'm not a vent expert, but to go to the very extreme of how young you can cut tads out of the eggs I have cut terribilis tads out as young as four days old. Four days. As soon as I see the clutch going downhill I cut them. Terribilis are probably the exception to the rule , but it can be done none the less. Many have survived the extreme early cut out.

Rich


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Interesting

I would agree with Rich about the terribs, in fact they will often break from the egg 'prematurely' on their own. They are the ONLY frog I've seen success with an early 'escape'.

As for others...including vents...I am NOT inclined to help Mother Nature. I think they will eventually give strong enough tads to get it done naturally. If they are too weak, then I'm not inclined to help them along too much... IMO weak tad = weak froglet.

S


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## stitchb (Jan 26, 2009)

sports_doc said:


> Interesting
> 
> I would agree with Rich about the terribs, in fact they will often break from the egg 'prematurely' on their own. They are the ONLY frog I've seen success with an early 'escape'.
> 
> ...


I agree with Doc. Though I am not an expert by ANY means, it seems wrong to dilute an already thinning gene pool with weak genes...There is of course the opposite-allow the pool to evaporate-which seems just as bad. Man, tough choice!

Good luck!


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> Interesting
> 
> I would agree with Rich about the terribs, in fact they will often break from the egg 'prematurely' on their own. They are the ONLY frog I've seen success with an early 'escape'.
> 
> ...


I agree on weakening the gene pool by assisting. I know that it's thought that some of the species will stomp the eggs to help the tads hatch and didn't know if vents were one of those speculated to do so. From this clutch, the only 2 that I know have hatched happened in the viv which leads me to think maybe they will assist if necessary. Like I said earlier, I've not bred vents up until now so their breeding is new territory for me.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jubjub47 said:


> I agree on weakening the gene pool by assisting. I know that it's thought that some of the species will stomp the eggs to help the tads hatch and didn't know if vents were one of those speculated to do so. .


This is the second time I have seen the reference to stomping the eggs to assist hatching.. is there a reference for this is or is this a "friend of friend" story..

Due to the parental behaviors in caring for the eggs as well as how the actual process of hatching occurs I'm having some serious doubts that the stomping is deliberate.. For example, what cue(s) are the frogs using to determine when the eggs need to be assisted in hatching? What prevents the eggs from hatching prematurely when the parent waters or otherwise interacts with the clutch? How has this "stomping" been differentiated from the normal care behaviors of the parents? How do we know that the hatching is simply not an artifact of the tapoles being close to hatching and the enzymatically digested portion of the egg giving way under the extra pressure? How have we differentiated this from a adult attemting to position for tadpole transport and the enzymatically digested egg wall giving way? Given that the tadpoles can readily hatch on thier own provided they are healthy I'm not sure what advantage early forced hatching achives for the tadpoles when an additional day or two to finish developing may be more advantageous to the tadpoles. Real assisted hatching is extremely rare in egg laying vertebrates so this makes me very skeptical.... 


Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've read it somewhere Ed, but can't for the life of me remember where. I'm honestly not wanting to assist the hatching of these guys either. I don't remember in the past when I bred tincs and auratus having tads hatch out more then 3 or 4 days apart. It's now been 6 days since the first tads in this clutch hatched out which seems like a long time, but may be common with vents...I just don't have the experience with them to know.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Here's a point I always consider when I have eggs and tads that are "difficult".

What is your ultimate consideration?

Frogs for yourself?

Compassion for the animal - wishing to do everything possible to see it live?

The sale or transfer of the frog to another person / hobbyist?


I discard bad eggs, cull weak tads and refuse to transfer froglets that are not above average to superior in size and condition.

Just my philosophy.....


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Philsuma said:


> Here's a point I always consider when I have eggs and tads that are "difficult".
> 
> What is your ultimate consideration?
> 
> ...


Honestly at the moment I'm just wanting to get some more experience with the tads since I haven't bred darts for several years. I've got a few tads from these guys at various stages and it seems like the process reminds me of something I had forgotten in the past almost every week.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One of the things to consider is that if the tadpoles are having problems hatching then they may have been insufficiently supplied with nutrients.... 


Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I've considered that as well Ed. I feed every other day and alternate between repcal and herptivite with every feeding. I've been replacing supplements at around 5 months as well to be on the safe side. Hopefully that is not the issue here, but I guess you never know.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the frogs are insufficient in retinol then these supplements won't address that problem without a significant time out from breeding to enable sufficient sequestering of retinol from conversion from beta carotene. 

Ed


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

After reading all this I may stop cutting eggs. Truth is I am not really shore why I cut the eggs...I have had them hatch without problem but still cut them most of the times..not shore why I ever started that..I think it might be from my days of keeping snakes..when the first egg hatched you cut them (well some people do ...the guy that taught me did)..and I have always used the same mentality with darts.
Brian


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## Cheryl (Oct 20, 2009)

this is where I am at. One egg deflated, but the tad doesn't seem to swim in water. I don't want to drown him. The others are still full so I am leaving them. Should I put the deflated egg one in the water or leave him on the moist leaf?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Cheryl said:


> this is where I am at. One egg deflated, but the tad doesn't seem to swim in water. I don't want to drown him. The others are still full so I am leaving them. Should I put the deflated egg one in the water or leave him on the moist leaf?


 
What species?....


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## Cheryl (Oct 20, 2009)

*Re: help needed asap Assisting tads to hatch*

I have green and bronze. First clutch. lost one tad. three still good. now one has deflated. I have a tad with a deflated egg. He doesn't seem to want to swim in the water. Should I leave him on the leaf, or put him in the water. I don't want to drown him.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I would cut the leaf off or other wise try to transfer the eggs to a petri dish. A lot more managable that way.

Use spring water or aged tap and try to keep the water level just even with the eggs and not submerge them.

Try for *STEADY* day and night temps of 75F and enclose the petri dish in a plastic wal mart type shoebox or similar.

Misting the eggs lightly everyday is good too. When you say "deflated" that is almost always dessication - critical loss of water and most likely death. Add water to that one anyway and see what happens.

Tads "not swimming" is perfectly normal. Sometimes they don't even move at all. Just keep them in 2-3 inches of water, not too deep - I use a 5oz solo plastic food cup for each individual tad.

Keep us posted.


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## Cheryl (Oct 20, 2009)

It is about day 14. He is actually out of the egg. the others are fine and I am keeping them misted on a tuperware lid. I have kept them wet, and he looks like he is ready to be out of the egg. But I don't know what to do with him. Put him in water and watch him sit on the bottom ,drown?, and look dead, or leave him on the leaf and have him not have oxygen. does the daddies leave them a while or putthem in water right away?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

You are trying to do too much -very common.

Just keep water up to the sides of the egg or if the tad is totally free of the egg - go ahead and place the leaf and all into 2 inches of aged tap or spring water.

as long as it is moist, it should not die.

remember....it is very common for some tads to not move much at all. Don't equate inactivity with anything bad.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

If he's out of the egg there is no more that you can do. I've seen tads just lay on the bottom after hatching for days and finally perk up and be fine.


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## Cheryl (Oct 20, 2009)

OK I put him in the water I had prepared for them. He is just laying there, but I guess he will be fine. I will watch for the others to hatch and put them in too. Thanks.


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