# Frogs Swapping Tanks...Any Issues?



## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

I have a 10 gallon tank that is well established with plants and microfauna which currently houses two juvenille mint terribilis. They will soon need a larger viv as they continue to grow. My question is, what sort of precautions should I take before moving new frogs into the tank. I know that the mints are very fat and healthy, and I have had them from very young without any health problems. Is it safe to assume they are not carrying any sort of parasite that would cause concern? Any advice is well needed! Thanks.

-Cam


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Do you mean using the 10gal they are in now for other frogs after you move them?

I would pull everything out and clean it thoroughly before introducing new frogs to the same enclosure. With all the recent talk of ranavirus, and other potentially "silent" pathogens, I would take precautions accordingly. These can just hang for a while without symptoms until there are sufficient numbers of the pathogen, or there's sufficient stress on the animals to suppress their immune systems.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cschub13 said:


> I have a 10 gallon tank that is well established with plants and microfauna which currently houses two juvenille mint terribilis. They will soon need a larger viv as they continue to grow. My question is, what sort of precautions should I take before moving new frogs into the tank. I know that the mints are very fat and healthy, and I have had them from very young without any health problems. Is it safe to assume they are not carrying any sort of parasite that would cause concern? Any advice is well needed! Thanks.
> 
> -Cam


 
A "healthy" looking frog doesn't mean that it is free of parasites or pathogens. It could simply mean that the immune system is doing it's job keeping the issue under control for that frog. Adding new frogs which are going to be at risk of being immunocomprimised due to stress (which can reduce immune system function for more than a month) is going to put them at greater risk. This is even before we get to the issues of exposures to novel pathogens for animals from different regions. 

Even a negative fecal test doesn't mean that a frog is free of parasites. It just means that there weren't any detected in that fecal (which is why, three fecals at least 7 days apart are typically suggested in a good quarantine program). 

As was noted above, all materials that cannot be disinfected (plants, wood, cork, substrate) should be double bagged and discarded into the proper trash stream and the rest should be scrubbed and bleached. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, I understand everything said. The thing that confuses me is I hear often about people introducing say a current from with a newly purchased mate for example. It seems some quarantine and some don't, and I have heard stories of either no issues at all and healthy frogs, or some sort of health concern passed on from frog to frog. I assume your same explanations relate to this issue as well? Is it just dumb luck that a non quarantined frog doesn't pass on any parasites or pathogens?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> all materials that cannot be disinfected (plants, wood, cork, substrate) should be double bagged and discarded into the proper trash stream and the rest should be scrubbed and bleached.


Plants: Vinegar
Wood: Bake it
Cork: Bake it
Soil: What Ed said


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## WeeNe858 (Sep 13, 2010)

cschub13 said:


> Thanks for the replies, I understand everything said. The thing that confuses me is I hear often about people introducing say a current from with a newly purchased mate for example. It seems some quarantine and some don't, and I have heard stories of either no issues at all and healthy frogs, or some sort of health concern passed on from frog to frog. I assume your same explanations relate to this issue as well? Is it just dumb luck that a non quarantined frog doesn't pass on any parasites or pathogens?



As with a lot of things in the pet hobby, its a matter of personal choice. Like you said, some people are religious about sterilizing while others are more lenient. Its usually suggested to QT any new frog to make sure its eating and healthy. Others take the next step and send in fecal samples to test, once they pass then its onto the main tank. As the hobbyist, you can only lessen the chance of transferring pathogen and parasites by taking precautionary steps, everything else is up to the frog.

The only guarantee on a clean tank for new frogs is to rebuild it which doesn't have to be a bad thing. Its a fun chance to re-scape the tank.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

Also I should have mentioned as it may make some sort of difference not sure...But the new inhabitats were intended to be a few auratus that I personally morphed out...

So even if you are only moving frogs that have been in your posession it is still best to take necessary precautions with a tank that have previously held other frogs?


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## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

cschub13 said:


> Also I should have mentioned as it may make some sort of difference not sure...But the new inhabitats were intended to be a few auratus that I personally morphed out...
> 
> So even if you are only moving frogs that have been in your posession it is still best to take necessary precautions with a tank that have previously held other frogs?


It's still a risk. How much you're willing to risk is up to you. I would say that freshly morphed froglets being moved into a new tank would be significantly stressed and therefore would be immuno-compromised. If you're not careful about touching things with your hands or utensils while moving from tank to tank, then there's a chance you've already spread microbes/parasites from your teribs to your auratus, but who's to say for sure?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cschub13 said:


> Also I should have mentioned as it may make some sort of difference not sure...But the new inhabitats were intended to be a few auratus that I personally morphed out...
> 
> So even if you are only moving frogs that have been in your posession it is still best to take necessary precautions with a tank that have previously held other frogs?


Lets look at it another way... Why would it be better to ensure that all of the frogs in your collection have the same parasites and pathogens particularly when some like coccidia, hookworms, lungworms, chytridmycosis and ranavirus can cause significant damage to the collection over time? What about the collection of a person who get's some frogs from you? 

Since you have asked some variation of "why it would be okay" more than once in this thread makes it sound like your fishing to get a consensus for the answer you want regardless of what are considered good practices to ensure the health and safety of not only your frogs, but the frogs people can get from you or even those in the local enviroment.... Cross infecting is a big risk and a big problem to the point we are seeing attempts to regulate the hobby due to novel disease risks (see for example http://www.fws.gov/fisheries/ANS/pdf_files/Petition_Salazar_Bd_amphibian.pdf) that are made worse by husbandry decisions that can cause an amplification of the problem. We are already seeing novel pathogens show up in wild herp populations that are due to the cross infection (Mycoplasma infections in box turtles for example) from different taxa and escape of the pathogen into the wild. Why choose to make things worse to simply save some effort? [I should note that the petition, that I linked above is before USF&W and the first part of comment was already held on it. Now we have to wait for the second period after they review to make comments and see if we are going to have issues....). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> Plants: Vinegar
> Wood: Bake it
> Cork: Bake it
> Soil: What Ed said


 
Okay, what does vinegar actually disinfect against? Is it effective against coccidians? or nematodes? It does work as a weed killer if you spray on the plant... 

With respect to the cork and wood, baking it unless you are going to run it for hours (like at least overnight) until the interior achieves a temperature that will ensure disinfection, should be discarded with the substrate. People have baked wood for shorter periods of time only to discover that there were still live invertebrates (like a whole ant colony) inside the wood much less pathogens or parasites that could be an issue....


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Ed said:


> With respect to the cork and wood, baking it unless you are going to run it for hours (like at least overnight) until the interior achieves a temperature that will ensure disinfection, should be discarded with the substrate. People have baked wood for shorter periods of time only to discover that there were still live invertebrates (like a whole ant colony) inside the wood much less pathogens or parasites that could be an issue....


So Ed, when we buy wood from a pet store, couldn't it also have something we don't want in or on it? And if so, what is the best practice?


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## mark c (Jun 17, 2010)

You always take a risk every time you add something to your vivarium, or step off the curb in front of the house. Risk is everywhere and unavoidable, but you mitigate it. Hopefully, everything you purchased came from a frog-free, clean environment, but you never know. In the case of reusing materials from a frog-filled tank, your risk of spreading pathogens is greater. In a 10-gallon tank, the amount of discarded materials is going to be pretty minimal. Unless there is something that is difficult to replace like a rare plant, why not dump it? 

Maybe someone could offer advice to clean up the rare plants? Maybe a grow-out tank would help? I would be scared to put vinegar on a plant I cared about.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

oneshot said:


> So Ed, when we buy wood from a pet store, couldn't it also have something we don't want in or on it? And if so, what is the best practice?


Apparently throwing it out 


Ed, So far vinegar has worked for me, as well as the froggers that told me about it. Yes, it kills nemerteans.

Also, What would you recommend as far as wood? So far, it sounds like wood is something you can't put in your tanks according to you.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

thedude said:


> Ed, So far vinegar has worked for me, as well as the froggers that told me about it. Yes, it kills nemerteans.


Does it kill the resting phase of the nemertean? How about coccidia? Does it penetrate protected areas like overlapped bromeliad leaves better than other dips? Is it effective against nematode or hookworm eggs? Are there any studies that demonstrate it as effective or is this more of the voodoo husbandry methods that persist in the hobby such as baking or boiling for periods of time insufficient to disinfect much less sterilize? 

How are you avoiding the herbicidial effects of vinegar? 



thedude said:


> Also, What would you recommend as far as wood? So far, it sounds like wood is something you can't put in your tanks according to you.


Actually that is not what I was saying and I was clear on it... I was pointing out that the recommendation to simply bake the wood and/or cork is insufficient for disinfection much less sterilization unless you are going to bake it for very extended periods to ensure that *all of the wood including the core reaches the appropriate temperature *which is why the recommendations for best practices in the literature are to discard it (or you can have it follow the frogs into the next enclosure).... In addition your comment ignores the fact that all imported woods (like cork) are sterilized through the use of specific fumigants which under pressure penetrate and kill organisms in or on the wood so if you get it from a clean selller, it is safe to use.... 

So which is better, to pass pathogens and parasites around your collection because only token efforts are made to prevent cross contamination because convience is more important than anything else? Keep in mind that pathogens and parasites jumping cross taxa and novel emergences can be a direct result of this sort of methodology which actually includes a threat to the hobby via the petition submitted to USF&W in 2009 to prevent interstate transport of amphibians unless shown to be free of chytrid...... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oneshot said:


> So Ed, when we buy wood from a pet store, couldn't it also have something we don't want in or on it? And if so, what is the best practice?


Get it from a store that keeps it's materials clean (doesn't use them with animals and then put it on the floor for sale) or bake it for really extended periods of time or pressure cook it. 

Baking and boiling things like wood are part of the voodoo husbandry methods that have persisted in the hobby. Virtually all of the recommendations passed around are insufficient to accomplish anything since the interior of the wood doesn't reach a temperature to deactivate anything that could be an issue for the enclosure.... A much longer period of heat treatment (or autoclaving/pressure cooking) is required... 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Just to give people an analogy that is easily understood, think about a big roast you cooked in the oven. How long does it take for the interior of the meat to become well done? It could take 3-4 hours. Now think along the same lines for a piece of wood. How long does it take the center to reach a high enough temperature to kill EVERYTHING? Bear in mind, this may need to be over 200°F, whereas meat is considered well done at about 180°F. So the 45 minutes in the oven thing that is thrown around MAY be sufficient to heat the external surface of the wood, but that's about it. Personally, if you want my advice, for those of you who don't have access to an autoclave, I'd buy a large aluminum pan, put in several inches of water, put in the wood, cover with aluminum foil, and bake at about 350°F for at least 4 hours. Serve with red wine. Lol
The water will stop the wood from burning, and the steam will help penetrate the wood. 6-8 hours might be better, and make sure the water doesn't dry out. 

There may be other things to consider, such as the flash point of any oils in the wood, so make sure you have a smoke alarm and fire extinguisher.


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

So clearly it comes down to personal preference and risk taking, but the best bet is more than likely to break it down and start over after taking all precautions. Just breaks my heart to tear down any established tank, think of the poor healthy mini ecosystem.


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