# Dislocated Leg



## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

ok i have many PD F's, and a couple of them seem to have the dislocated leg thing going on. Now the Green Sip i separated from the tank and nothing was happening, so i decided to handle the frog and sort of try to relocate the shoulder socket...to my surprise it was a success now im not sure how long the front arm will stay like it should but for the time being it is in place...
the other frog is a Azureus now i did the same procedure to that frog and it worked for a couple minutes then the frog would jump against something to take it back out of place... does any one have any suggestions...i could not find any helpful use on the site as of now...i mean the frogs are as healthy as can be in regards of their weight and color and mobility...it just looks....awkward sometimes when they are feeding


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

i also should have mentioned its not its leg. it is its shoulder


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## Jayson745 (Dec 13, 2006)

seems pretty odd to have something like that happen twice. Are you using fresh calcium to dust their food with?


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

yes i am now but there was a short period of time where i ran out of suppliments. but the past month or so i have been giving them fresh sups so hopefully things will turn up.... and alos the green sip i checked on her today and she is doing very well but the azureus female is not doing so well


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Updates on this situation?
I have one azureus that is not doing so well.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Holiday,

It looks like you have not got a suggestion or advice yet so I will throw this out there. Do a little research on MBD, metabolic bone disease I think. If I remember right, if your frog is suffering from it, it is not necessarily because he lacked getting supplements but perhaps was not processing calcium correctly. It also would not be corrected by using regular supplements whether it be repashy, or the others we commonly use. So vet advice would be great.

Someone will hopefully correct me if I am totally out of the ball park. 



Sally


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Thank you srrrio.

Things have turned for the worse. I tried a calcium bath using Flukers Liquid Calcium. I watered it down, but maybe not enough. He spent about 15 minutes partially submerged, just lower legs and belly in the solution.

This calcium bath has paralyzed my sick guy. I hope he is just in shock from it and will bounce back. He was lifeless but breathing afterwards. I watered him down to wash the solution off. After a few hours he leaned up against the side of the QT tub and has remained in the same position for 12 hours now. It is not apparent that he can move. His rear legs seem as though they cannot move.

I will look into MBD and speak with a vet.

Thanks for the help.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If there is a calcium issue with a frog (it may need an x-ray to confirm that it does have a calcium issue) it could be from a number of different things, including but not limited to insufficient D3 in the supplement, poor ratio of vitamin A to D3, poor ratio of De to vitamin E, poor calcium to phosphorus ratio or insufficient calcium. 

If the frog isn't getting enough D3 (either from diet or UVB), then it can't metabolize the calicum so soaking it in a solution containing calcium isn't going to help. 

How old was the liquid calcium? when was the bottle opened? If you were using a calcium gluconate or calcium glubionate solution it would have been diluted down to 2.2%... When were the dusting supplements you were using opened and where were they stored? 

The frog actually should be seen by a vet to confirm that the problem is due to a calcium insufficiency as some of the bones that can readily deform are the bones that control the tongue and jaw which can prevent the frog from feeding successfully. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

srrrio said:


> Holiday,
> 
> It looks like you have not got a suggestion or advice yet so I will throw this out there. Do a little research on MBD, metabolic bone disease I think. If I remember right, if your frog is suffering from it, it is not necessarily because he lacked getting supplements but perhaps was not processing calcium correctly. It also would not be corrected by using regular supplements whether it be repashy, or the others we commonly use. So vet advice would be great.
> 
> ...


If the issue is a minor calcium metabolism issue and the frog could still feed and the supplements were still good it can be corrected using any of the calcium D3 dusting supplements. If there is severe deformation then it probably needs veterinary support as other important bones are going to deform which can prevent the frog from feeding. However the only way to be sure that this is going on with the frog before it deforms too much would be to x-ray it. A vet in cases like this is invaluable. 

Ed


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## Uncle_Benny (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm nearly positive a lack of calcium would cause paralysis, not a surplus of it. I think a surplus would cause the opposite and induce seizures. I'm definitely not an expert but from my basic knowledge of calcium in solution (not in the bones but in the blood) it is used as a signaling molecule to activate muscles. Without it the signal from the brain cannot be passed to the muscles and the muscles are unable to contract. This is why a common symptom of rickets is trembling. The trembles are the muscles being unable to maintain contraction and so they are rapidly being activated and inactivated, reducing the motility of the affected.

So if I'm on the right path it's not your bath that harmed your PDF, any calcium absorbed via the bath should have generated some kind of improvement, not paralysis. If your from has had low calcium levels is may have depleted the available calcium for muscle contraction whilst holding itself up in the bath. As a result you are seeing temporary paralysis.

Again this is really just a rough thought, nothing other than mammalian physiology knowledge being extrapolated to your issue. So I could be totally wrong but at least you have another idea.

Hope everything works out for you and the little guy!

Ben


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Thanks Ed.

I will head to the vet soon. Most vets in Montana specialize in larger and hairy animals though. I will see what they say or if they can x-ray.

The Flukers Liquid Calcium I purchased was at Petco. I used it as soon as I got home. I also picked up some Repashy vitamins which I believe has D3 in it, need to check on that. 

I think the problem I have now is the guy cannot mobilize to catch flies or will get stressed from flies crawling on him. Maybe I can dangle some dusted larve in front of his nose.

Would any lights be able to provide D3 through plastic or glass?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Uncle_Benny said:


> I'm nearly positive a lack of calcium would cause paralysis, not a surplus of it. I think a surplus would cause the opposite and induce seizures. I'm definitely not an expert but from my basic knowledge of calcium in solution (not in the bones but in the blood) it is used as a signaling molecule to activate muscles. Without it the signal from the brain cannot be passed to the muscles and the muscles are unable to contract. This is why a common symptom of rickets is trembling. The trembles are the muscles being unable to maintain contraction and so they are rapidly being activated and inactivated, reducing the motility of the affected.
> 
> So if I'm on the right path it's not your bath that harmed your PDF, any calcium absorbed via the bath should have generated some kind of improvement, not paralysis. If your from has had low calcium levels is may have depleted the available calcium for muscle contraction whilst holding itself up in the bath. As a result you are seeing temporary paralysis.
> 
> ...


Hi Ben,

The issues are conserved so the same symptoms are seen in frogs that are seen in mammals... 
I'm going back into my distant past and I remember something about extracellular calcium potentially impacting the loss and subsequent uptake of sodium ions through actions of the sodium pump in the frog's skin. It has been a number of years since I looked at that data so I could easily be misremembering it. If the frog loses enough sodium into solution and can't readily uptake it due to the calcium couldn't that result in a paralysis as well? Normally the suggestions in the literature for severe cases of calcium disruption are to soak the frog in a solution of calcium glubionate/gluconate of no more than 2.2% calcium gluconate/glubionate along with vitamin D3 supportive measures. In minor cases, replacing the supplements are often all that is needed as the fat soluble vitamins oxidize when exposed to moisture and air and multisupplements can catalyze increased rates of oxidation of the fat soluble vitamins which is where the rule of thumb to replace all supplements every six months originated. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Uncle_Benny (Aug 7, 2009)

holidayhanson said:


> Would any lights be able to provide D3 through plastic or glass?


It's not the lights themselves that are providing the D3. The lights emit UV-A and UV-B, the latter is responsible for catalyzing the metabolism of vitamin D to it's active form D3, which is an accessory hormone to assist with calcium ion re-absorption into the bones and muscles.

Ben


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## Uncle_Benny (Aug 7, 2009)

Ed said:


> Hi Ben,
> 
> The issues are conserved so the same symptoms are seen in frogs that are seen in mammals...
> I'm going back into my distant past and I remember something about extracellular calcium potentially impacting the loss and subsequent uptake of sodium ions through actions of the sodium pump in the frog's skin. It has been a number of years since I looked at that data so I could easily be misremembering it. If the frog loses enough sodium into solution and can't readily uptake it due to the calcium couldn't that result in a paralysis as well? Normally the suggestions in the literature for severe cases of calcium disruption are to soak the frog in a solution of calcium glubionate/gluconate of no more than 2.2% calcium gluconate/glubionate along with vitamin D3 supportive measures. In minor cases, replacing the supplements are often all that is needed as the fat soluble vitamins oxidize when exposed to moisture and air and multisupplements can catalyze increased rates of oxidation of the fat soluble vitamins which is where the rule of thumb to replace all supplements every six months originated.
> ...


Hey Ed,

I just had a thought as I was writing my reply just previous to this and you could be on to something. Your knowledge seems more advanced than my own in this discipline so excuse me if I'm going the wrong way.

You could be right with your mentioning of the sodium pumps. Because sodium and calcium ions are both positively charged, excess calcium could upset the membrane potential across the frogs neurons and impact the ability for an action potential to travel along the axon of a neuron and therefore inhibit muscle activity.

My other thought was that because calcium ions are charged, they must be very tightly regulated and only a small amount is allowed to circulate. If an excess is in circulation the body works to remove it by storing it in bone and muscle or excreting it in the urine. If the solution the frog was bathed in had a concentration too high in calcium it could have resulted in such a need for the frogs body to remove calcium from the extracellular space and blood, that enough of it was moved into the muscle to cause calcification of the musculature. In this case the muscles would solidify with calcium deposits and be unable to contract.

Again I may be off with these ideas, but this is an interesting case regardless of that.

Ben


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Ben,

I doubt my recalling informantion from awhile ago is better than your information.

I do know a bit about calcification of the soft tissues, in the literature this is not something that happens quickly and is almost always to my knowledge linked to the hypervitaminosis of D3. In hypervitaminosis, the soft tissues including the kidneys become calcified. With respect to ingested calcium, calcium has one of the narrowest safe tolerance of the major nutrients. I can pull up the information but I'd have to pull out the reference, but I think calcium in excess of 4% of the total dry diet results in conditional deficiencies of micronutrients (including zinc) and in conjunction with a high fat diet can even result in the formation of calcium soaps in the digestive tract. 



Ed


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Thanks Ben and Ed...this is getting interesting as I really have no idea what is going on. Your knowledge of what could be happening is incredible.

Let me describe a little more on the signs displayed after the calcium bath. For about 45-60 minutes after the bath the frogs fore extremities had no life, the fingers would fold and did not have their usual "spring" or strength to stand on his toepads.

The hind feet/digits looked hyper extended. As if you tried to straighten out your fingers so much as your fingers started to bend back toward your hand, I guess the very extreme opposite as making a clenched fist. After he was able to recover for a bit just his middle "toe tapping" toe was in the "up" position.

I hope he pulled around today. I will keep you posted on what I find out.

Thank you again.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

I talked with a local vet and he had a similar explanation to what Ben and Ed have explained above. The calcium bath could have forced some other nutrients out of the frogs cells. 

The vets advice is to make a fruit fly and vitamin supplement paste with a bit of water. Try and get three feedings into his mouth tonight. He also said to increase the QT container temp by a few degrees to help out with the metabolic rate.

He suggested if he shows some signs of improvement and a will to live we should then take an x-ray to determine if the shoulder is injured in some way or if he has some deficiency problem. He said for a 4 year old frog to develop a deficiency problem at this age is more uncommon. Usually these problems develop with much younger frogs. If the forced feeding does not work he said he can try injections with Cal and D3, he said the trouble is to get them into a form that will work with an injection is the hard part. I have read about pedialye baths to help replenish nutrients but I am not sold on baths really.

My supplements are now fresh again, I purchased Repashy Calcium Plus. I was using Rep-cal Calcium w/ D3 and Herptivite, alternating with every feeding. They are stored in the freezer and dated them as opened in April 2011, putting them at 7 months old.


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## Freeradical53 (Jan 25, 2008)

Sometimes there is not a lot that can be done for a pet. Tiny systems are hard to diagnose and treat. You just have to do what you can. It sounds like you are doing all that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you search the forum, there are several discussions on pedialyte and that it isn't suitable for use in cases when hypocalcemia is suspected as it does not contain any calcium. 

A product that is commonly used as a liquid supportive diet for frogs and other omnivorous or carniverous herps is feline clinicare or similar products. It is partly digested, and balanced towards what the frog's need. 

There is a fair bit of good information on the whole topic in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. 

Ed


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Wow, force feeding. Not very fun but once you get some needed nutrition into your little friend it feels much better. Better than watching your helpless buddy suffer and soon starve.

I found some excellent information on force feeding and much of the same discussion on this thread from 2005. Ed, you also had some great information on this thread. I (and many others on Dboard), are very appreciative of your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. It truly is a great resource. 

I need to learn to make some ringers solution.

I was able to get 4 toothpick scoops of Melano-Mash-a-la-Repashy in to my sick boy blue. I dripped some pond water from his tank onto his back, for lack of any ringer solution. I figured this might be a bit better than just RO.

Hoping for the best tomorrow.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you have a decent local pet store instead of using pond water (potentially infecting the frog with chytrid, ranavirus or some other pain in the neck pathogens) get a container of RO right and follow the directions. While not the same as Amphibian Ringers, it is at least no contaminated (if made with RO water) and has some of the ions for the frog so there isn't the stress from having to deal with ion loss and recovery in RO water. 

You can also order premade Amphibian Ringer's solution from FIsher Scientific See Fisher Scientific - Search Results= 

Or go to their website and search it. 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

Wow, I am so glad the big guns came in! 

I have nothing to add other then that I am really impressed how you are really working to save this guy. Keep up the good work, and I hope he improves. 

Sally


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Thanks Ed.

I have a fellow chemistry teacher mixing up some Ringers Solution for me today. 

During the force feed this morning the guy was still sitting still and had not moved since I set him down last night. As I tried to pick him up he mustered enough energy to make a few escape attempts. 

I gave him two more mouthfuls of flies and repashy and set him back down. 

It is good to see him move, though he still does not have muscle strength to sit upright. A sign of improvement but we are far from normal.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

The pond water I was dripping onto my frogs back was from his tank; not from the pond down the road. I figured this would have some nutrients in it, more than just RO water.

Just to clarify.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Update....

I have been able to get 7 mouthfuls of ff and repashy supplement into the frog. He can now move on his own and but will more likely move to escape being caught. He is able to sit a bit more upright but still does not appear normal.

No response to a ff walking in front of his nose.
His hind legs are still not functioning correctly, the extremity below the knee rests on top of the thigh. The rear feet are still hyper extended. 

I have a liter of ringers solution now. I dripped some onto his back and extremities. I am afraid to try any type of bath with the ringers solution.

*What would be the prescribed application to this frog using the ringers solution?* Partially submerged bath with basting over the body for 5 min, 10, 15....?

I hope the ringers solution will help his limbs relax and resume their anatomical positions.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

the primary use for ARS solution is to support frogs that are osmotically challenged. The frog is typically kept either on a sterile substrate like unbleached papertowels that are moistened with the ARS or are given a bath in it for typically an hour or more.

Ed


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Friday night frog update for all the followers on this frog story....

Last night the frog went into an ARS bath (amphibian ringers solution) for an hour. I can get about two mouthfuls of food into the guy each morning and two times at night. Likely much less than this pig was accustomed to eating in his viv days of flies a plenty. 

He can now move, though his lower extremities, below the knees at the hind limbs, and below the wrist of the fore limbs still do not rest in their anatomical positions.

He cannot see flies, but will respond when a fly crawls on him. 

The hardest part of this situation is speculation. 

Will this frog become normal again? 
Will he be able to hunt on his own? 
Will the abnormality that got the frog to this point still remain a problem in the future? 
Is this guy stressed out from being force fed 3-4 times a day? 
Will force feeding stress this frog out so much that he will never want to eat on his own? 
Maybe he prefers being force fed as opposed to hunting....


What goes on in the minds of our frogs? ( I can guess it is typically..."flies, oooh, flies, oh, more flies, mmmm, flies")


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Get your vet to show you how to tube feed him so you can get the appropriate amount of food into the frog with the least stress. You don't know the amount of food those feedings are giving the frog and a severely stressed/sick frog can have a significantly higher metabolic rate. 

Severe stress from handling can prevent the frog from feeding. How do you know that it can't see the fly as opposed to attempting to freeze to avoid a predator? 

Ed


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## EPI (Dec 22, 2009)

I am following this and I think it is very positive that the frog is getting a little better...so much to learn here!


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

The frog is getting stronger. He will make several attempts to escape from being caught for his next feeding. He can now sit up but his hid legs still od not have the strength to hold his butt or stomach off the ground. Once I can catch him and turn him onto his back he relaxes and can be wrapped in a wet towel to take a few mouthfuls. The bottom of the QT tank is soaked with the ringer solution which should help. I am considering another ARS bath but don't want to over do it. 

Ed: "Severe stress from handling can prevent the frog from feeding. How do you know that it can't see the fly as opposed to attempting to freeze to avoid a predator?"

If I move my hand into the QT container, or waive a pencil in front of the frog he will react by trying to seek shelter into some magnolia leaves. He can sense motion. If I drop a few flies in front of his nose he will not strike at the flies, but will not seek shelter or hide. I assume he can sense the fly movement but does not react to them as he does a pencil tip or my hand.

I would suggest the frog is stressed from the amount of handling that he may not be willing to feed on his own. You are right Ed, the tiny mouthfuls I can deliver are not nearly the normal amount his guy was eating normally. He really was a big pig when it came to feeding time. I feel the feline goo will deliver a higher caloric/protein/calcium dose per handling. The tooth pick fulls I can administer are comparable to 3-4 flies at a time.

I wonder what can be done to remedy the metabolic problems that has caused this problem in the first place. Is there any solution to the metabolic bone disease problem? 

Seeing the frog stress is causing my wife to stress which cause me to stress....ah the web of life in our tiny dwelling. 

Saturday night with the frogs....

Thanks for the support. It really is helping to guide us through this situation.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A work up to determine if the frog does have actual bone damage is the first thing that should be done. An x-ray will go a long way to determine if that is an issue. 

The second thing is to get a good food supplement for the frog. Tube feeding a diet like Feline Clinicare would go a long way. It would also supply vitamins that are needed by the frog in a manner that makes them more easy to uptake (as vitamin A for example requires fat in the diet to be absorbed). 

While you are present (given that you have been handling the frog and have transferred to a new enclosure) the frog may be inhibited from feeding.. since it views you as a predator, movement to feed could attract your attention... you have been providing a huge negative reinforcement.... If the frog has a deficiency in vitamin A it may be unable to feed on it's own until the deficiency has been resolved. The same may be the case for deficiencies in D3 and E. The amount of food you are gettting into the frog is not suffiicient to meet the resting metabolic needs of the frog much less increased activity/stress which can significantly increase nutrient demands. 

Ed 

Ed


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

At the vet now. About to get a mini froggy X-ray.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

The X-ray shows good bone density. No signs of bone metabolic disease. The shoulder does look as though it has been injured at some time in the past. The vet said if he has made it this far he has a good chance of recovery if he can get back to eating on his own. 

I now have a tube feeder and syringe. I need to track down some feline clinicare. My vet did not have any. 

What would be the recommended dose in ml for an adult azureus? I don't want to fill him up too much.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

holidayhanson said:


> The X-ray shows good bone density. No signs of bone metabolic disease. The shoulder does look as though it has been injured at some time in the past. The vet said if he has made it this far he has a good chance of recovery if he can get back to eating on his own.
> 
> I now have a tube feeder and syringe. I need to track down some feline clinicare. My vet did not have any.
> 
> What would be the recommended dose in ml for an adult azureus? I don't want to fill him up too much.


The dosage would have to be calculated based on the weight of the frog. Did the vet discuss refeeding syndrome with you? Didn't he provide you with an amount to feed the frog when you get some? 

(I have to admit, I'm surprised he doesn't have any at the practice as it is very commonly used with sick felines...). 

Ed


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

I would imagine you could probably walk into another vets office and buy a can of the feline clinicare. My vet gave me a can awhile back, I did not end up having to use it, but she did give me a tip that I could freeze tiny portions and unthaw it as needed.

Thanks for sharing the x-ray results, I am glad it sounds like you have a good shot at recovery.

Sally


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Ed said:


> The dosage would have to be calculated based on the weight of the frog. Did the vet discuss refeeding syndrome with you? Didn't he provide you with an amount to feed the frog when you get some?
> 
> (I have to admit, I'm surprised he doesn't have any at the practice as it is very commonly used with sick felines...).
> 
> Ed


The vet did not mention referring syndrome nor did he give any feeding serving suggestions. 

I called all the vet clinics around here and nobody had any and most had never heard of the product. I found some on ebay and it was at my door in two days.

I warmed up the clinicare to the same temp as the frog. My best guess was to start with .05mL. He didn't struggle too much taking it. I would like to alter the feeding tube. It has two holes in the tube. One hole is close to the end while and the other is about a cm up the tube. The clinicare seeps out of the top hole only. When the tube is in the frog the top hole is located near the back of the frogs throat. 

He is still alive...still not eating and getting skinnier. Strong and responds to my hands trying to catch him. Hopefully he will warm up to belly fulls of clinicare. 

I am going to start with small doses of .05mL and work up to .1mL doses. 

He has been in QT for a month now...I feel the boring brown leaves and tighter quarters are not helping him much either. I am going to create a larger QT tank for the guy and maybe spruce it up with some live cuttings and a few broms.

Thank you for all the help everyone... I will post some updates.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You can cut the end of the catheter to ensure that it comes out of the end. 

Ed


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Ed, can you explain what refeeding syndrome is? 

Could you suggest a dosage amount and frequency I should administer to an azureus? I am not sure of the precise weight of the frog but I would estimate he is between 6-8 grams. 

How long should I allow for a dose of clinicare to absorb or process before administering another dose?


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Update to anyone following this thread. Tube feeding is a task for two people. It is not difficult but just a little tricky.

Mark the tube at a distance that will reach from the front of his mouth to the last rib. Don't want to poke the tube in too far. Hold the tube about 8 inches from the end. This way it will bend if the end of the tube meets resistance. Prime the tube prior to handling the frog. Make sure there is no air in the tube or syringe. Lube the tube with some clinicare to make it slide in easier. 

I found it is easiest to handle the frog with clean dry hands. A dry thumb can draw the throat down to open the mouth. Insert and provide a froggy milk shake. I have been warming the clinicare on my lights until it get to the same temp or just above the frogs body temp. Laser temp guns are so handy. 

The frog is doing much better. Very strong and fast. He has the strength to squirm out of my fingers and can really hop! 

I have seen him strike at flies but it seems like he has lost his touch with the tongue. I think it might just take a few weeks on the clinicare before he is able to flick the tongue again. Maybe I damaged his tongue.... Time will tell. 

Until then...the tube feeding continues. I am going to build him a larger recovery tank so it is easy to catch the guy but a little more jungle like than the 8 gal QT tank.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Today he hunts again! 

I was just thinking this morning of how long can I possibly nurse this little guy along, 5 months of tube feeding, 12 months, 2 years? 

Well, after two months of some near death and sickly times...the little bugger has finally built up his appetite again. If it was anything like it was before I had better start an extra culture to keep up with him. 

Whew, what an ordeal. 

Lots of lessons learned. Frogs are resilient. They are much tougher than you think. They can be handled with out injury. They are pretty strong for their size and weight. The best way to get a frogs mouth open is when they are on their back and you have a dry thumb. Pull down on their throat and the mouth opens up. Don't bother with tooth picks, credit cards, guitar pics, Q-tips broken in half...the pry method does not work. 

I hope someone out there will learn from this one. 

Don't use Liquid Calcium for a calcium bath. 

Thank you to everyone who chimed in here. Ed, I really appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge. It really made up for what my local vet didn't quite understand.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

That is really pretty terrific, nice job with the little guy for sure. Thanks for the updates, it is great to hear a success story , especially when it did not sound very promising at all. 

Sally


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## PeanutbuttER (Jan 1, 2011)

That's great news! Thanks for updating us!


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