# Simple/Functional; The JBear Way



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Here is a new viv I built. The emphasis is: Simple and Functional. This is intended for froglet Vents. Any criticisms are welcome. I have never supported water features, but I wanted to create a water reserve, if not for tads, for easy drainage via baster. I will be adding some Java Moss to the "bank" of the water and also some Wandering Jew and Creeping Fig in the background of the viv. New pics soon to come. I would love to hear suggestions, etc. This viv is a few months away from having any frogs in it.

FB is styrofoam sheets, screening, pea gravel, soil mix, and then oak leaves.

JBear


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

What would be the purpose of a styrofoam background if it is not decorative?
A lot of people use styrofoam in their vivs but it should be known that Polystyrene (styrofoam) is a known endocrine disruptor. It might not be a huge deal if all drainage goes into a false bottom, but with standing water, keep in mind that whatever leaches out of your styrofoam will end up in the pond.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> *What would be the purpose of a styrofoam background if it is not decorative?*A lot of people use styrofoam in their vivs but it should be known that Polystyrene (styrofoam) is a known *endocrine disruptor*. It might not be a huge deal if all drainage goes into a false bottom, but with standing water, keep in mind that whatever leaches out of your styrofoam will end up in the pond.


I didn't say anything about a Styro BG. However the tip on potential leaching is nice info. 

I have used styro FB's in many vivs, admittedly, not with an accessable water reserve/pool. If it poses a true risk, it can be easily covered over. Thanks Doug!

JB


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> I didn't say anything about a Styro BG. However the tip on potential leaching is nice info.
> 
> I have used styro FB's in many vivs, admittedly, not with a water reserve/pool. If it poses a true risk, it can be easily covered over. Thanks Doug!
> 
> JB


My bad. I saw the FB (false bottom) as a BG (background).


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> My bad. I saw the FB (false bottom) as a BG (background).


It's cool! We all make mistakes... Well some of us...

JB


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> What would be the purpose of a styrofoam background if it is not decorative?
> A lot of people use styrofoam in their vivs but *it should be known that Polystyrene (styrofoam) is a known endocrine disruptor*. It might not be a huge deal if all drainage goes into a false bottom, but with standing water, keep in mind that whatever leaches out of your styrofoam will end up in the pond.


Can you elaborate a bit? I really would not want to put my frogs at risk. However, like I said, I have used styro in almost all my vivs, whether as a FB or simply as a wedge to hold something in place...

JB


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Your endocrine system, or your frogs in this case, consists of your glands, hormone, and receptors. An endocrine disruptor can work several ways. It can mimic a hormone, block the effects of a hormone, or stimulate or inhibit the proper production of a hormone. This can cause problems all kinds of fun problems in you or your frogs bodies. This goes into a little more detail. What Are Endocrine Disruptors?| Endocrine Disruptor Screening Program | US EPA
A google search will provide pages and pages of information saying that polystyrene is a proven endocrine disruptor and that it does leach compounds. polystyrene endocrine disruptor - Google Search

In short...Styrofoam's bad unkay? Polystyrene...It's bad.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

So if I were to cover over/fill in the pool, would that lessen the risks drastically, or would leaching still be a real concern? Thanks for the link.

JBear



Pumilo said:


> Your endocrine system, or your frogs in this case, consists of your glands, hormone, and receptors. An endocrine disruptor can work several ways. It can mimic a hormone, block the effects of a hormone, or stimulate or inhibit the proper production of a hormone. This can cause problems all kinds of fun problems in you or your frogs bodies. This goes into a little more detail. What Are Endocrine Disruptors?| Endocrine Disruptor Screening Program | US EPA
> A google search will provide pages and pages of information saying that polystyrene is a proven endocrine disruptor and that it does leach compounds. polystyrene endocrine disruptor - Google Search
> 
> In short...Styrofoam's bad unkay? Polystyrene...It's bad.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> So if I were to cover over/fill in the pool, would that lessen the risks drastically, or would leaching still be a real concern? Thanks for the link.
> 
> JBear


That is a choice you will have to make for yourself. I do not know how well the compounds will migrate upwards through the substrate. Do not forget about wicking and the possibilities of microfauna eating it, then your frogs eating the microfauna.
My personal decision is that NO styrofoam is used in any of my vivs. Not a single styrofoam pellot. I'll bet you didn't want to hear that.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> That is a choice you will have to make for yourself. I do not know how well the compounds will migrate upwards through the substrate. Do not forget about wicking and the possibilities of microfauna eating it, then your frogs eating the microfauna.
> My personal decision is that NO styrofoam is used in any of my vivs. Not a single styrofoam pellot. I'll bet you didn't want to hear that.


What I want to hear and what I need to hear are two different things...  

Thanks as always!

JBear


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> What I want to hear and what I need to hear are two different things...
> 
> Thanks as always!
> 
> JBear


I agree JBear. Ed has told me a few things I didn't want to hear but advancing our knowledge is always a good thing.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I've been asked if that compressible floral foam is the same and should be avoided. It is different. It is not polystyrene, but looking up the MSDS on it makes it look even worse! Is is irritating to eyes, skin, and respiratory tract. May contain Formaldehyde. Prolonged exposure causes cancer. http://www.fdionline.net/fdi/public/files/msds/SO-Oasis_Sahara_Floral_Foam.pdf


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Your endocrine system, or your frogs in this case, consists of your glands, hormone, and receptors. An endocrine disruptor can work several ways. It can mimic a hormone, block the effects of a hormone, or stimulate or inhibit the proper production of a hormone. This can cause problems all kinds of fun problems in you or your frogs bodies. This goes into a little more detail. What Are Endocrine Disruptors?| Endocrine Disruptor Screening Program | US EPA
> A google search will provide pages and pages of information saying that polystyrene is a proven endocrine disruptor and that it does leach compounds. polystyrene endocrine disruptor - Google Search
> 
> In short...Styrofoam's bad unkay? Polystyrene...It's bad.



Doug, thanks Endocrine Disruptor is a GREAT band name!!


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

By the way, a shout out and thumbs up to Melas who first made me aware about styrofoam being an endocrine disruptor.


----------



## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> That is a choice you will have to make for yourself. I do not know how well the compounds will migrate upwards through the substrate. Do not forget about wicking and the possibilities of microfauna eating it, then your frogs eating the microfauna.
> My personal decision is that NO styrofoam is used in any of my vivs. Not a single styrofoam pellot. I'll bet you didn't want to hear that.


isn't GS polystyrene too? so does that mean GS is bad too? what about Tetra waterfall pond sealant?


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Great Stuff is polyurethane-based, not polystyrene. The Tetra is _probably_ the same.


----------



## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

alright thanks for clearing it up. i got polyurestene and polystyrene mixed up


----------



## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

This is a displeasing thread. Just closed off a new tank with a huge styro or poly sumthin WATER feature. The front surfaces are covered with epoxy, but the back and bottom are not so much. Thanks for the info


----------



## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

JK  seriously thanks for passing it along


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> Your endocrine system, or your frogs in this case, consists of your glands, hormone, and receptors. An endocrine disruptor can work several ways. It can mimic a hormone, block the effects of a hormone, or stimulate or inhibit the proper production of a hormone. This can cause problems all kinds of fun problems in you or your frogs bodies. This goes into a little more detail. What Are Endocrine Disruptors?| Endocrine Disruptor Screening Program | US EPA
> A google search will provide pages and pages of information saying that polystyrene is a proven endocrine disruptor and that it does leach compounds. polystyrene endocrine disruptor - Google Search
> 
> In short...Styrofoam's bad unkay? Polystyrene...It's bad.



https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...CEcybn&sig=AHIEtbQKtbAsAOwrhx8-68-SLT8JiF9eqQ


I guess the internet is full of 'both sides', and since all the exoterra backgrounds many have been using for years are foam I am not sure what to think.

I havent seen any noticeable issues ...yet


----------



## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I think it may be hurting my frogs. They are fat and lazy. Unless it could be the 400 fruit flies I feed them everyday


----------



## parkanz2 (Sep 25, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> I guess the internet is full of 'both sides', and since all the exoterra backgrounds many have been using for years are foam I am not sure what to think.
> 
> I havent seen any noticeable issues ...yet


I agree that there's a lot of anecdotal evidence of no ill effects, but it's also probably a safe bet that most endocrine problems don't present with visible clinical signs until a much later stage of disease. For example, you can lose 90% of your adrenal gland cortex without ill effects, but beyond that you start showing signs of Addison's disease.

Also, although several studies have been done regarding the safety of polystyrene in regards to food containers etc, those containers are typically kept chilled and are relatively temporary when compared to our vivs. The dose of leachate has been deemed acceptable for most ploystyrene food packages that I know of, but what about exposure to products like this multiple times a day, everyday, for years? As far as I know, there haven't been studies on that (albeit I haven't really looked very hard.) And, there's the potential concentrating effect that occurs in a closed system like a viv. If it concentrates in the water/substrate, the inverts are surely exposed, possibly at higher doses than most studies have shown safety at, and there's not good info on how polystyrene leachate will affect amphibians.

I'm with Doug on this one, I'm avoiding it in vivs just to be safe. Maybe GS will become controversial down there road too, but there's less eyebrow raising evidence about PU foams than there are with polystyrene.

Cheers

Edit: By the way Shawn, some of the things in that document you linked are so backwards it borders on hilarity.

Quote from the paper:

Myth: Polystyrene does not biodegrade.

Fact: Polystyrene has been designed specifically to be an inert material that does not break down
in a landfill and release harmful substances, such as greenhouse gases.

End quote

So... it's a myth that polystyrene does not biodegrade, but it's a fact that it is inert and does not break down. Isn't being inert and not breaking down the definition of not biodegrading? haha


----------



## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

sports_doc said:


> https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...CEcybn&sig=AHIEtbQKtbAsAOwrhx8-68-SLT8JiF9eqQ
> 
> 
> I guess the internet is full of 'both sides', and since all the exoterra backgrounds many have been using for years are foam I am not sure what to think.
> ...



Well, I guess it depends on what effects we are looking for. Most endocrine disruptors must be present during "critical periods". For instance, a boy with XY chromosomes will be born with girl genitals if the disruptor happens during specific times of prenatal development (believe it or not boys don't have DNA for a penis but it is how the cells react to high levels of androgens which are created by the male gonads, which are created from the protein on the Y chromosome). A large number of studies concerned with endocrine disruptors are focused on the reproductive issues the disruptors create. One noted scientific finding in FL was that after a high exposure to an endocrine disruptor, the average alligators penis size was smaller (which is consistent to normal problems associated to endocrine problems). However, that finding could not make any greater assumption. I tried to find articles specifically to amphibians and development problems due to styrofoam but I couldn't find anything of substance in journals. Ed may know of one. However, the main take home conclusion of the article for the effects on humans is "The role of endocrine disruptors and human disease has not been fully resolved; however, at present the evidence is not compelling". This is quoted from researcher Stephen Safe with the Department of Veterinary Physiology and Pharmacology, Texas A&M University. 2000. 

The reason this is compelling is that earlier in the article they acknowledge that there have been correlations. However, those correlations are weak and explained the problems with correlations. It is an interesting read for people that seem concerned with this topic. Title: Endocrine disruptors and human health--is there a problem? An update

Here is another that states "the current tolerable daily intake value (TDI) of 0.05 mg/kg body weight [bw]/day are safe." "Overall, the Committee concluded that the current TDI for BPA is adequately justified and that the available evidence indicates that BPA exposure represents no noteworthy risk to the health of the human population, including newborns and babies." Title: Critical evaluation of key evidence on the human health hazards of exposure to bisphenol A, 2010, Critical Reviews in Toxicology. 

I guess the key question is, how much is leaking into the water and how much is safe for the frog (I can't find anything on that yet). However, I agree with Pumilo that it is better to be safe than sorry. However, maybe this is why companies like Exo-Terra use the styrofoam and why Sports_doc doesn't have noticeable effect. Maybe they can't find any evidence of harm (but not every smoker gets cancer either). 

Keep in mind the articles are about human development. The first article specifically talks about evidence to many species and may be a good launch point for people who want to take it further.n


----------



## frankpayne32 (Mar 17, 2007)

This turned out to be a great thread. Lots of good food for thought about polystyrene. Considering the fact that people in the states have been using PS in herp backgrounds for at least a decade and our European friends across the pond for at least two decades it is PROBABLY something that is not harmful to our critters in many situations. However, like Pumilo said, it's probably not worth the risk in enclosed aquatic/semi-aquatic conditions where animals with rather permeable skins are kept and other alternatives are available. I for one did not use PS as originally planned in my most recent build because of the info gathered on this subject from this forum. Thanks  I do however still feel comfortable using it in non-aquatic habitats when it is sealed in either epoxy or drylok.


----------



## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks Frank, I agree about it's use elsewhere. My shipping boxes are lined with styrofoam and I have blue sheets of styrofoam in my frogroom to cover up my windows and keep that Colorado winter chill out of there.


----------



## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Another example.

JBear


----------



## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Well that looks already for some frogs to move in. Wait till that java moss takes off on that piece of wood. It will cover it in no time. Looking good bud!!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jeeperrs said:


> Well, I guess it depends on what effects we are looking for. Most endocrine disruptors must be present during "critical periods".


Actually the more we find out about thier effects, the more we see that we have to look at it in a more global light 

Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, Volume 75, Number 1 - SpringerLink 
Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, Volume 77, Number 1 - SpringerLink 

Impact on the thyroid... The Xenoestrogen Bisphenol A Inhibits Postembryonic Vertebrate Development by Antagonizing Gene Regulation by Thyroid Hormone 

So to only consider it in the light of expression of gender is going to miss a wide variety of potential issues. 



jeeperrs said:


> I tried to find articles specifically to amphibians and development problems due to styrofoam but I couldn't find anything of substance in journals. Ed may know of one.


When we consider styrofoam, you need to search the literature for styrene since it is the monomers, dimers and trimers that are relevent in this context. 
See for example a week effect Effects of styrene monomer and trimer on gonadal... [Environ Res. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI 

disruption of rentinoid metabolism (styrene dimer) http://jhs.pharm.or.jp/data/56(3)/56_221.pdf 

Now some forms of polystyrene also release alkylphenols which can also be significant endocrine disruptors see for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1519400/pdf/envhper00388-0165.pdf 

one of the ones that has been repeatedly tested is nonylphenol and it has been shown to be an issue with a number of frogs.. see Gonadal differentiation in frogs exposed to estrogenic and antiestrogenic compounds - Mackenzie - 2009 - Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry - Wiley Online Library 

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

It is also probable that the release of the alkylphenols is going to be higher in styrofoam that is not destined for food contact... 


Some food for thought..... 

Ed


----------



## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Whoa. Lots of reading. Thanks Ed


----------



## Venutus1 (Feb 13, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> That is a choice you will have to make for yourself. I do not know how well the compounds will migrate upwards through the substrate. Do not forget about wicking and the possibilities of microfauna eating it, then your frogs eating the microfauna.
> My personal decision is that NO styrofoam is used in any of my vivs. Not a single styrofoam pellot. I'll bet you didn't want to hear that.


I am with you!
I try to avoid any plastics if at all possible.

Cheers.


----------

