# Are tadpoles supposed to be removed from tank?



## spe3de3 (Nov 6, 2013)

I have four cobalts that recently started reproducing like crazy. 

There's about 6 tads in the terrarium right now, and I can't catch them. Is it okay to let them grow into the terrarium with the larger adults, or do I have to find a way to transfer them into a separate tank?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

How large is the enclosure, any pictures?


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## spe3de3 (Nov 6, 2013)

It's an 18 18 24 but has different layers of magnaturals, so there are three different land height levels in the tank.

Also two males are constantly fighting in the tank.


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## Andy27012 (Jul 23, 2016)

I am newer to the forum but from everything I have read tincs do best in pairs. I would think removal of tads is prudent as the tinc azureus females will eat other females eggs. Again, someone with more experience will chime in but regardless of levels I would not try more then one pair of frogs in that size tank. It may Just be the photo but there does not appear to be leaf litter which is suppose to be beneficial to the more terrestrial frogs.


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## spe3de3 (Nov 6, 2013)

I don't have leaf litter in the tank, but the ground is ABG mix. 

Is there a technique to catching the tadpoles without making a mess in the terrarium?


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Well I'm going to start out by saying if you have a confirmed male and a confirmed female that's already an issue. The max a 18x18x24 should have is an adult pair, so I recommend removing the other two confirmed or not confirmed gender frogs. Male on male agression will happen and so will female on female hence why they are recommended to keep in pairs. Leaf litter is also a huge thing for terrestrial frogs it helps create visual barriers, keeping the substrate humid and allows the frogs to not collect the ABG mix all over em. As for tadpoles where are they exactly?


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## rpping (Sep 5, 2015)

Wholeheartedly agree on the leaf litter suggestions. Not only will it help with humidity and provide the frogs areas to hide, but it will provide a place for your clean-up crew to live and additional nutrients for the clean-up crew. Get yourself some live oak leaves and a scattering of magnolia leaves.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DunderBear said:


> Well I'm going to start out by saying if you have a confirmed male and a confirmed female that's already an issue. The max a 18x18x24 should have is an adult pair,


Based on what criteria? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Ed said:


> Based on what criteria?
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Sorry let me rephrase that an 18x18x24 can hold max a trio of tincs with a 2.1 ratio but that's cutting it close in my opinion. What criteria? Based on what I've read and other members have stated I mean sure you could do 2.2 but the aggression between females can lead to deaths in a tank that small.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DunderBear said:


> Sorry let me rephrase that an 18x18x24 can hold max a trio of tincs with a 2.1 ratio but that's cutting it close in my opinion. What criteria? Based on what I've read and other members have stated I mean sure you could do 2.2 but the aggression between females can lead to deaths in a tank that small.


This is another great example of dogma that is a result of people following cookie cutter directions. It fails to realize that until about 2006 the vast majority of people breeding these frog had them at much higher densities. It gets passed along because people don't have to learn the behaviors of the frogs or how to properly design an enclosure for them. 

some comments 

Ed


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Ed said:


> This is another great example of dogma that is a result of people following cookie cutter directions. It fails to realize that until about 2006 the vast majority of people breeding these frog had them at much higher densities. It gets passed along because people don't have to learn the behaviors of the frogs or how to properly design an enclosure for them.
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I mean when you think about them in the a wild setting they have a much larger territory than most tanks and considering that tincs are one of the more territorial frogs, I can see why minimum requirements like these are said. Again it's my opinion and other hobbyists who will agree that tincs should be kept in pairs or a higher male ratio if in groups. It's like the aquarium hobby you can put any fish in a fishbowl the best example would be a goldfish. Goldfish can live in fishbowls but will be no where near thrive. As the hobby progresses with the community it's members opinions change.


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## spe3de3 (Nov 6, 2013)

I added flat surfaces by using two large and one small magnaturals. That almost doubles the flat surface for them. It's like a condo with different levels. I'll have to monitor the frogs to identify the pairs. Maybe the best bet is to remove the adults. I just know that if I move them into a different tank, they won't begin reproducing right away. It may take several months.


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

spe3de3 said:


> I added flat surfaces by using two large and one small magnaturals. That almost doubles the flat surface for them. It's like a condo with different levels. I'll have to monitor the frogs to identify the pairs. Maybe the best bet is to remove the adults. I just know that if I move them into a different tank, they won't begin reproducing right away. It may take several months.




I get the ledges create multiple other surfaces increasing the surface area but still idk it's just my opinion. People's opinions vary but it all comes down to what you want to personally do, was just trying to input something.


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

Getting back to your original question:
I assume you have a water feature that the tadpoles are hiding in? If the tads are really small you can try using a turkey baster to suck them up. Just be sure they are smaller than the size of the opening of the baster or you can damage them. Try to draw them up as slowly and gently as possible. OR You can wait for the tadpoles to grow larger, which will make them easier to catch with a net or cup. OR you can let them morph out in the tank if you think they will be easier to catch as froglets. They should be removed as froglets at the latest though. Good luck!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

medusa said:


> OR you can let them morph out in the tank if you think they will be easier to catch as froglets. They should be removed as froglets at the latest though. Good luck!


As noted here there isn't anything wrong with them completing development in the enclosure. You want to remove them before they get too big as there is going to be competition for food and as they grow potential territorial issues but to reiterate letting them transform in the tank is fine. They do not have to be pulled as eggs or tadpoles (in fact leaving some tadpoles in the water will reduce the number of tadpoles through cannibalization by the bigger tadpoles. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DunderBear said:


> I mean when you think about them in the a wild setting they have a much larger territory than most tanks and considering that tincs are one of the more territorial frogs,


More territorial than what? This is part of the dogma so for example more territorial than calling male pumilio versus calling male pumilio? What about the dendrobatids that are known for pair formation such as imitator or vanzolini ? Is this a comparison to Epidobates or Ameerga? Claiming they are one of the more territorial dendrobatids is heavily lacking as a fact as this "aggression" is heavily influenced by how the enclosure is set-up as well as a number of other factors. As I noted above if you understand the biology and behavior of the frogs you can work with the animal. Without that understanding your promoting the perpetuation of "cookie cutter recipes" which means that people don't have to actually know anything about the animal. 

The reason it drew my attention is that you aren't stating an opinion, your stating it as a fact and this is how dogma becomes entrenched in the hobby much to the detriment to the animals as well as the hobby. 

some comments 

Ed


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Ed said:


> More territorial than what? This is part of the dogma so for example more territorial than calling male pumilio versus calling male pumilio? What about the dendrobatids that are known for pair formation such as imitator or vanzolini ? Is this a comparison to Epidobates or Ameerga? Claiming they are one of the more territorial dendrobatids is heavily lacking as a fact as this "aggression" is heavily influenced by how the enclosure is set-up as well as a number of other factors. As I noted above if you understand the biology and behavior of the frogs you can work with the animal. Without that understanding your promoting the perpetuation of "cookie cutter recipes" which means that people don't have to actually know anything about the animal.
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Not trying to state it as a fact I've said it's up to him to decide what he wants to do. My opinion is based off of what I have read about other peoples experience and not personal experience. I am still a beginner and was just trying to suggest something. I get where your opinion is coming from but I also don't think that the "rules" are bull shit. Again it depends on how the tank is set up, personally though I'm viewing it from a beginner's perspective so that's why.


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## Vinegaroonie (Jul 31, 2015)

Maybe a better way to phrase it is it is RECOMMENDED to keep only "blank" number of frogs in a "blank" terrarium. I do agree that an 18x18x24 is a bit small for 4 tincs, and you should probably separate the pair. 

Also, if the new tank is set up well your pair could begin breeding immediately. They'll breed as soon as they feel comfortable so as long as you don't make it too stressful on them they should be calling within a week or two (based off my recent tank change). 

Good luck!

-Niko


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vinegaroonie said:


> Maybe a better way to phrase it is it is RECOMMENDED to keep only "blank" number of frogs in a "blank" terrarium. I do agree that an 18x18x24 is a bit small for 4 tincs, and you should probably separate the pair.


I guess I need to break down why this sort of recommendation is a problem. 

First off you two are making recommendations based on volume, which does nothing to tell one about the available space for the frog. In fact when using volume to recommend an enclosure size for x number of frogs (whether it is 2 or 100), it tells you nothing about the amount of suitable habitat/space. As an example you could have a 30 foot or 30 foot area and if all of the basic needs of the frogs are found in two square feet, you would only be able to house a small number of frogs in that room (and a much smaller enclosure could easily be better habitat for the frogs). Consider this that as the surface area squares, the volume cubes so your actually losing surface area as the enclosure gets bigger. This is why a properly set up smaller enclosure can better support a proportionally greater number of animals than a badly set up larger enclosure and why any recommendation the two of you are engaging in based on volume is a problem. 

Look how I broke it down here many many years ago http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

Second, all your doing is perpetuating dogma that has been shown to be an issue in more than one way. 

Third, in the wild the frogs can be found in densities that are much higher than those "recommended" by the hobby. This means that there are aspects of the hobby that are inferior in one or more ways and perpetuating the stereo type enclosure only inhibits any advances that can be made in this manner. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Vinegaroonie (Jul 31, 2015)

Ed said:


> I guess I need to break down why this sort of recommendation is a problem.
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What I was referring to is the issue of female aggression. With tincs, is any enclosed space big enough for two adult females? I definitely should have made it clearer. 

Sorry if I miscommunicated! 


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vinegaroonie said:


> What I was referring to is the issue of female aggression. With tincs, is any enclosed space big enough for two adult females? I definitely should have made it clearer.


Yes if you understand the behavior/biology of the frogs. People forget that the females are not actually defending territory but are defending access to a male (typically one who is taking care of her clutch of eggs). 

In the above case why would you jump to requiring the frogs to be separated when not only successful reproduction has happened and there have been no reports of significant aggression? 

some comments 

Ed


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## Vinegaroonie (Jul 31, 2015)

Ed said:


> Yes if you understand the behavior/biology of the frogs. People forget that the females are not actually defending territory but are defending access to a male (typically one who is taking care of her clutch of eggs).
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It was my understanding that two of the frogs were still young and unsexed and that may be the reason why there is no aggression. Also, as a beginner, wouldn't it be safer to separate them anyways as he may not be able to spot aggression? I can see no problem with keeping them together if there is no aggression (although bigger is always better) but he may not be able to spot aggression occurring. 

In any case, I would take Ed's advice over mine any day as he is definitely more experienced, and I think I may have miscommunicated my thoughts. However, he did say he was willing to separate them. So why not encourage him to give them more room if he's willing to make the change? Providing each enclosure has enough usable space. 

-Niko


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Vinegaroonie said:


> It was my understanding that two of the frogs were still young and unsexed and that may be the reason why there is no aggression. Also, as a beginner, wouldn't it be safer to separate them anyways as he may not be able to spot aggression? I can see no problem with keeping them together if there is no aggression (although bigger is always better) but he may not be able to spot aggression occurring.


I've always argued that bigger is better but its more important to know how to set an enclosure properly as a badly set up big enclosure is worse than a well set up smaller one in terms of animals health. 

Resource defense in female tinctorious is pretty easy to recognize as it is done through wrestling (and its not like they don't have a posture to signal who is the winner and who isn't). If the hobbyists do everything to avoid it, then how will they know what it is when they see it?). 

Some resource defense is normal and should be taken as normal, it is only when it continues for a long-period of time is it an issue as that typically signals that the two are so evenly matched one can't gain an advantage or when one doesn't stop being aggressive over several days and is preventing one from feeding/normal behaviors. 



Vinegaroonie said:


> However, he did say he was willing to separate them. So why not encourage him to give them more room if he's willing to make the change? Providing each enclosure has enough usable space.


If he wants to separate them that is his choice, I've been addressing the problems with jumping right to having to separate them when there aren't any issues at the time particularly since the frogs have historically been kept and bred in groups with great success. Much of the enclosure argument has evolved out of the original attempt to use the 5 gallon/frog as the recommendation for minimal enclosure size. This has been shown to be a error as the size of the aquariums tend to result in less space per frog as the size of the enclosure increases as a result people have jumped the size (again arbitrarily) and have again made it into dogma often with the exact justification you are using in that it is to help make the newer hobbyist successful ... perpetuating the cycle and removing any encouragement to learn anything about the biology and behaviors of the animals. 

some comments 

Ed


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