# Post mortem pics, bloat?



## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Well I stupidly thought breeding was about to go on because the female (below) put on some weight, the male stopped calling for the most part and they were hanging out together under leaf litter a lot - then last night she was submerged nose down in the axil of a brom. So would anyone call this bloat?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm not sure what to call it. It really sucks though. Is there the possibility that she was egg bound? I don't know if darts have a problem with that or not. I can't say that I've ever heard of it with them.


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## bwebb (Apr 4, 2007)

I had a green tree frog way back that looked just like that when it died. I took it in the lab and opened it up to see if I could find anything. I noticed bead-like cysts clumped together in a mass around the intestines. I can't say for sure that they are what caused it but it would be interesting if you opened up the abdomen and took a look.


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Most animals bloat when they die due to the bacteria in their digestive system consuming the inside of the body and creating gas. Yes, not a nice picture, but it causes bloating.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

bobberly1 said:


> Most animals bloat when they die due to the bacteria in their digestive system consuming the inside of the body and creating gas. Yes, not a nice picture, but it causes bloating.


He mentioned that this frog had been putting on some weight recently though so it doesn't sound like the bloat is from death in this case.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah those pics were taken just a short while after


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Cut her open?


Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

...And I would not say that is a stupid mistake at all. Bloat can be very tricky and not often cured .

Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

particuarly since bloat is a symptom and not a disease in and of itself. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Well I'm not sure I possess the right tools to do any type of an autopsy (or what I should be looking for), the closest might be a razor boxcutter. Does this look like definite bloat though?


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

Man, sorry for your loss Chris. That really sucks. 



Ulises


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks a lot, luckily someone might be sending me a female soon


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

The frog does look bloated. If you cut her open and find a bunch of eggs I'd say we may be able to eliminate bloat though. A simple razor , small scissors, what ever . You're not going to be able to run a full necropsy by yourself, but something (like eggs) may jump out at you. You already know what she looks like on the outside...
Or , you could send her out.


Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

ChrisK said:


> Thanks a lot, luckily someone might be sending me a female soon


 Have you found ones that look like her?

Rich


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Really just by coincidence recently, yeah an exact match and from the same original sources




Rich Frye said:


> Have you found ones that look like her?
> 
> Rich


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Rich Frye said:


> The frog does look bloated. If you cut her open and find a bunch of eggs I'd say we may be able to eliminate bloat though. A simple razor , small scissors, what ever . You're not going to be able to run a full necropsy by yourself, but something (like eggs) may jump out at you. You already know what she looks like on the outside...
> Or , you could send her out.
> 
> 
> Rich


OK wasn't really too into this confidence-wise but if it can help someone or add to the knowledge base then here you go. These are the best pics because any more poking around just looked like these but a little more messy.


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## syble (Mar 20, 2007)

really you need to go deeper, the liver moves out of the way fairly easily, once thats done you should have a better idea, the pic attached is of an auratus done in by egg bind. the darker discolouration on the back of the frog in your post mortum pics makes me think of sgg bind. You should continue examination if you still have her.
Sib


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

well she was a pretty small frog and like i said any deeper digging just got kind of messy, especially since i was just using a razor blade, in the first pic you can see the corner of the blade at the edge of the pic, the different coloration on her back was always there, the lower back was blue and the upper back was bright green the colors just didnt come through right. she's not around any longer


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

So sad, I am sorry for your loss. 
You are braver than me, to look for a cause with a razor blade, but I guess you have to try to determine it. 
-Beth


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

ChrisK said:


> well she was a pretty small frog and like i said any deeper digging just got kind of messy, especially since i was just using a razor blade, in the first pic you can see the corner of the blade at the edge of the pic, the different coloration on her back was always there, the lower back was blue and the upper back was bright green the colors just didnt come through right. she's not around any longer


You had nothing to lose...
Any eggs found? Any strange spots on the liver? Hard to tell by the pics. 
To run a full necropsy you'd need a scope and be able to look at different organs for infection and the like.
Sorry you lost her.
Rich


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you can remove the liver you can do a test to see if it is fatty by seeing if it floats in water... (this is not always accurate but its one of the things you can do.) 

You need to remove some of the organs to see if anything looks odd. You have the basic view but need to check out more. You are probably going to need a pair of tweezers to move around the different tissues. 

Was there a lot of fluid in the body cavity or does it appear to be contained in one or more organs? 

If interested I would suggest getting the basic how to necropsy techniques in the ADG newsletter and possibly a copy of 
Elsevier 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Those pics are pretty much a perfect picture of what could be seen in person, 
didn't see any eggs but i didn't keep looking for them much more because i thought maybe that would be the first thing that popped out if it was the cause since she was small to begin with and seemed bloated, 
like Ed said more precise tools woulda been needed to keep going because of the small size, any more looking really just got messy with the razor blade, 
it kinda looks like the self contained gel or fluid there is spilling out around the cut if that helps but it definitely wasn't watery,
luckily those pics were taken before any more looking around, thinking maybe that huge black coloration that popped out in front was abnormal or something and someone could ID it,
that whole package went right into the incinerator after that because the rotting smell was happening, she died friday night


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## Devanny (Jul 11, 2008)

Im really sorry about your loss chris.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks Devanny, Beth and everyone. It would be nice if something could be ruled in or out from the pics to help other frogs in the future but it doesn't look like it - could any parasites be maybe ruled out?


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