# About to build my first verts, 2 20 Longs! UPDATE On Page 7



## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Hi everyone,

I'm wanting to build my very first ten gallon vert. Depending on how it goes, I might go one to build a vert out of a 20 long.

My question is(are);

I've never had glass cut before. I do know that home depot doesn't do it. At least not here in my part of NYC. Does Lowes cut glass for you in even in NYC? Hope so.

Ok, I pretty much want to follow the intructions given in Josh's Frogs's website on how to construct a vertical tank. However I want a bottom piece, the piece that opens, and then a third piece at the top with a rectangular opening in the center. Thats so I can silicone some wire netting material for ventilation. Then attach a small fan to suck out stagnant air. Since I don't know anything about cutting glass, do they cut glass the way I want it, with the rectangular whole in the middle?

One last question. How big should the bottom piece be? That is, how tall?
Oh, and I can just silicone these glass pieces to the black rim on the tank right???(just making sure).

Thanks all!


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

I just looked up Lowes locations in NYC, I can't believe there aren't any in Queens New York! There are 3 total in the entire city of New York!!!!! And we have wayyyyyy to many Home Depots! :evil:


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I don't know if there are glass shops in the city, but there must. I'm in the country and we have about 5 glass shops around me. The range in prices is quite large, so make sure you call around. The guy I use goes on vacation a lot, but when he is in town, he charges $4 a square foot. Others were as much as $10 a square foot.

Cutting a rectangle out of the glass may be hard. I know to cut my glass the guy scores (sp?) it and then breaks it (like drywall). Not sure how we could do that with a rectangle. They can drill holes (for $15) though and you can use a hole instead of a rectangle.

But, whatever you do, take pics.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Thansk Josh. I've found a few by looking it up on yellow pages on line. Can you believe it, my office has yellow pages for all the surrounding areas of my county, but not the yellow pages for my county!! Too funny.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Forget siliconing screen to the glass, go with screen frame, it will look much classier, and if you have to, or just want to replace the screen, all you have to do is take out the spline.
The screen frame kits should be right around the same area as the glass in the hdw store.
See examples on Ben Green's site 
I don't have the link on hand, so just search it for you're self.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I totally agree with Brian. I have two tanks with the screen using Ben's method. I like it, but it isn't fly proof unless you netting (from like JoAnn's or wally world). Easy to make and very cheap. It also looks pretty nice.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Thanks guys. 
Here is that link:

http://www.thechocohut.com/
I agree that is a better idea!
Uhmm....Do they sell little framed meshes like that anywhere?  
That looks like the hardest part of the whole operation.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Thanks guys.
> Here is that link:
> 
> http://www.thechocohut.com/
> ...


Its not - I made one in about two minutes  If I can do it, anyone can. All you do is cut the frame down to size (theyre about 6' long, the one I got from HD) and on the corners pieces you cut the piece that slides into the frame down (only do this if you want the screened area to be about an inch, inch and a half wide or so, you dont have to cut it down if you dont mind a wider screen frame) and thats about it. Real easy.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Thanks, I'll try it. I think I know what you are talking about. I wouldn't need any special tools to cut this right??? Well I suppose if I did, HD would cut it for me. :?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2006)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Thanks, I'll try it. I think I know what you are talking about. I wouldn't need any special tools to cut this right??? Well I suppose if I did, HD would cut it for me. :?


Nah, its just flimsy aluminum (they might even have plastic ones, didnt see any at my HD). I used a hacksaw, one slice and its cut. You could probably even use a steak knife :lol: The corner pieces are just plastic.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

Ok, I bought some stuff. I'll post pics later. 
I bought the decorative framers, took me a while to cut these. I didnt have a hack saw.

It also took me a while to find hinges and latches. And I forgot to get a pull. Oh well. 
All I know, is that when I walked into that hardware store, I felt more disoriented than a nun gone clubbing.
But when I left with all the stuff I needed, I already felt handy.
I think my girlfriend got the distinct impression it was my first time at a hard ware store. :roll:


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

I love hardware stores, so many neat things that I don't need..yet I want. I just put together my first vert today (25 gal)..there was a lot of swearing.  But not bad for a first time.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh cool! Post a journal, or make one up.


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

Khamul,

Arent you in Piermont? Isnt that Rockland County? There's a Lowes in Orangeburg, just outside the Palisades Parkway, exit 5.


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2006)

No Sir, Im in Queens NY.
Thanks anyways.


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## ErickG (Nov 28, 2004)

Where in queens? Queens is not a city. I used to live in Astoria.

But you used to live in Piermont, right?! I remember seeing your profile with that when you first joined.


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## Guest (Jul 1, 2006)

I've never even heard of Piermont, at least not much. Hehe. Elmhurst.


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## Haroldo (Mar 14, 2006)

Khamul1of9 said: Hmmm. maybe Im not making sense. Please feel free to continue this conversation on this thread which I started for this purpose.

Whats a living hinge? Is that the type they use for the glass tops they sell?




RGB said:


> The living hinge was reaaly easy. I didn't take many pictures because it went so fast but i'll give a quick step by step:
> 
> Step 1: Obtain your glass and give it a good cleaning to remove any residue.
> 
> ...


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## Haroldo (Mar 14, 2006)

Khamul1of9 said: And yea, I am planning to silicone the brass to the glass. I havent opened the packages the hinges are in yet, so I'm not sure how feasible this will be. 
Thanks.


Very doable. I know several glaziers that make custom vivs all the time using plain ol' brass hinges. Works like a charm from what I can see. I would just make sure to use alot of silicone adhering the hinges. Don't want a big piece of glass just falling out or breaking one day under stress. :wink:


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2006)

Thanks Haroldo for all your help!


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## Haroldo (Mar 14, 2006)

Khamul1of9 said:


> Thanks Haroldo for all your help!


No problemo.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2006)

*UPDATE*

Here are some of the supplies I bought for the vertical tank. I made the screen frame for the ventilation part. It was easier than I ever imagined, though it took about an hour to make two of them.










Thats the kit I got at Home Depot, and the spline tool I got so I could put the spline in once I get the no see-um mosquito mesh netting.










And here is the name of the kit incase anyone ever wants to find one.
My biggest problem was knowing what to look for.









And here are the tools I used, the hammer, the hack saw, the ruler, the china pencil (wax pencil), and the window frame itself. Also the kit comes with corners.








I cut the frame with the hack saw, and used the hammer to push in the corner pieces. I also used a file to smooth out the rough edges after cutting the frame.
I was pretty proud of myself for being so handy all of a sudden. 
Here is what it will look like once I silicone it in place, again, imagine it with the screen on it.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2006)

Told ya it wasnt so bad :wink: Did the kit come with everything minus the tool? I couldnt find any like that, all the kits around here just have the frames.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Cesar,

These are exactly the kind of how-to posts I love, starting with pictures of the supplies and tools and going step-by-step from there. A picture is worth a thousand words! Thank you so much. There are so many posts in the Parts forum that just lose me after the first few sentences...  

How gratifying to have accomplished this all by yourself. I always love to master something new at the home store. A while ago you were asking about having glass cut--I recently had 3 pieces cut at Lowes for my new 18g high tank at the whopping cost of 25¢ each. For 75¢ I walked out with most of what I need for my new lid!

Question--do you remember if the Home Depot kits come in different colors? My Lowes offered no kits but did have the framing available in white, gray (or maybe it was "silver"), or black...A kit sounds as if it would be cheaper but I'm not sure I could find one in the color I want. Still lots of home stores to visit, though!

Congrats on your progress!


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2006)

Nawth21, The kit comes with everything minus the tool. I had to buy an extra set of corners for the second screen frame, for some reason I didnt realize it at the time.

Diane, The kit also comes in black and aluminum color. I should have used aluminum since I really did a number on the white paint while sawing the frames. Oh well.
One of the frames has a warning; "Warning, screen will not stop child from falling out window. Keep child away from open window." I thought it was kinda funny since Im gonna use it to keep frogs and fruitflies in. Maybe I should change it to read, "Warning, Poison Dart frogs, Do not disturb."
Im gonna get the glass cut today, the guy said it would cost me about 6 bucks for the glass and cutting together. Cross your fingers and hope I dont give the guy the wrong measurments!


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## asydabass (Jul 12, 2005)

Looking good so far. Make sure you give him the measurements for the inside of the frame. I made a similar mistake a while ago. I measured the outside real quick. Needless to say...it didn't fit. I know it sounds stupid, but sometimes you just get those brainfarts. And you come home going WTF is wrong with me, lol. Good luck!


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## Haroldo (Mar 14, 2006)

Looking good.  Your local home stores have black frames? I can't find them anywhere local to me. Must be nice.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Cesar,

Thanks for the info. And I'll looking forward to the report on your glass adventure.


Donald,

"Measure once, curse twice."


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2006)

I went to a glass cutter and he will supply me with 4 pieces of glass, each 1/4" inch thick, 11 1/2" wide, 2 will be 6 inches tall(long), and 2 will be 19 1/4". The reason I chose 1/4" thick glass was so that it matches up to the thickness of the screen frames. Other wise you can easily use 1/8" thick, as this is the same thickness they use for standard glass tops. Maybe he will have them ready by today, maybe mondays. I hope measured everything right, wish me luck!


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2006)

Ok, I got the glass cut. It fits extremely tightly. I should have gotten one of the pieces cut about 1/16" shorter than my measurements. Well as long as it actually closes.
None of the pieces in the pics have been siliconed in place yet. The reason is cuase Im not sure what my next step is. :? 









And here are the hinges and the latch that I bought for the door.


















All I need now is a pull so I can open the door with ease. Home Depot has a ton of variety, lets hope I find one stylish enough.
So, I want to use handi foam(which I already have two cans of) to create a background. I also bought some malaysian drift wood at a local petstore.
Should I smear silicone throughout the back of panels, then the handi foam, then more silicone on which I put bed-a-beast substrate??? And then silicone the door and screen in place???
Thanks.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Looking very nice.. can't wait to see the next steps.. I love construction journals too.. you can learn so much.

When you silicone the brass hinges in place, can i recommend you use loctite silicone adhesive ($3.50 in walmart, they all sell it). I find it a lot stronger than just silicone. I used to have a 30" by 18" by 3/16" glass door, side opening on my 55 gal vert.. i used gorilla glue on it.. one day we heard a loud crash.. and viola a lovelly jigsaw puzzle of glass on the floor. I found the loctite stuff after i had used gorilla glue, i was never happy with the gorilla stuff and always said i would take it down one day and change the glue. One day i didn't need to!

I always use silicone adhesive now for hinges, catches etc.

Keep up the good work and keep us posted.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2006)

Steve said:


> Looking very nice.. can't wait to see the next steps.. I love construction journals too.. you can learn so much.
> 
> When you silicone the brass hinges in place, can i recommend you use loctite silicone adhesive ($3.50 in walmart, they all sell it).


I've never heard of it before. Thanks for suggesting it. I will look it up! Now, you intilled the fear of broken glass and free frogs in me! :?


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2006)

Ok, I siliconed the first piece of glass, the bottom glass, to the tank. I also felt I needed to add some silicone to the inside of the black rim to avoid possible leaks. I know these are made to prevent leaks, but I have seen enough of the rims fall off old vivariums to take the extra precuation.










I used black silicone to attach the glass to the black rim of the tank.










I used clear silicone and a spatula pictured above to reinforce the silicone seal on the inside of the black rim to avoid leaks. I know, Im paranoid,  .









A closer look.

Also I attached the no-see um mesh that sbreland gave me. I was impressed at how fine the netting is, and how strong. Thanks again!!!


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

I wouldn't be paranoid.. i always silicone the plastic trim when i make a vert.. i have taken apart tanks before and they are not always sealed around the rim..

Are you going to have a water feature inside? are you going to drill the tank?

Good start.. looking forward to seeing the rest.

Steve


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2006)

Im not going to drill the tank becuase they told me it was tempered. I'm planning to just have a little depression in the front onthe tank so that gravel is exposed or just glass is exposed to form a little pond of some kind. THat way I can have some control over the water level.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

The reason i ask is because if you wanted to use a water feature, but didn't want to drill the tank for power cables, you can cut a small corner off the glass to make a cut out then run your power cables through this then silicone over the top.

Works ok if thats what you wanted to do. I you did want to try this, pm me with an e mail address and i can send you some photo's of the way i did this on my 55 gal vert.

Steve


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2006)

I don't know if I want to do it anymore  , but sure am interested in your method! WHy not post it here where everyone can benefit. Im sure many would be interested.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

Yeah, i was thinking we could start a contruction hints and ideas here in the construction part, kidna like a care sheet for building vivs.. converting vivs etc.. I got a few days off work now so hopefully i will get a chance and i will post the photos for running power without drilling on here.

Mods, what do you think about a sub section in construction for ideas and 'how to'? or do you think its covered enough here anyway.

thoughts please. (if you like this idea start a new thread please so as not to hijack the current thread, thanks).

Steve


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

If I ever get off my ass and write an article...  (see sig)


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2006)

I'd like to see a step by step how to for water features without drilling. I cant even figure out the basics :lol: I need pics or something. Just cant understand it


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

That I can do because I'm doing a water feature like that right now.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2006)

Hi all,

Ok I did the background last night with Handi Foam. It seems like the handi foam has cured. Should I silicone the bed-a-beast to the background today, or should I wait?

Thanks, I'll post pics of the foam background later tonight.


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

I recommend taking a bamboo skewer or long toothpick, and punching holes in the background. If you turn the tank around and look at the back, you may see pockets of deep black - that is uncured handifoam. I normally make small holes with a bamboo skewer, and wait another 24 hours - you will see more product expand from the small holes.

I am in the middle of contstructing a 20L vert as well.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2006)

Thanks, will do. If I dont punch the holes will that mean that the foam won't cure?


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

It will probably cure - but take quite a bit longer. And then, if you proceed to cover it with silicone - the stuff in the back will take even longer (if it ever fully does).


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Cesar,

About your no see'um mesh--it's more cloth-like than screen-like, right? But you still had no trouble with the screen tool, spline, etc., or getting out wrinkles?


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2006)

Yes, its more cloth like, but I could bounce a penny off of it if I wanted to. No trouble at all. Its all in the wrist  . You just keep stretching it with one hand and do the spline thing with the other. Actually at one point I made a little rip in the mesh with the spline tool. But no biggie!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Hey Cesar,

I can’t believe that I missed this thread! Looks like you are doing a really nice job. I’m a little confused on the size though. Are you doing a 10 and a 20 long or two 20 longs? Anyway, it looks like I will be making a 25 vert for my new fish and frog room. 

By the way, whatcha gona put in there?


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2006)

Hey Chris, 

Glad you hopped aboard! Here is a pic of the tank with the foam on.










This is my practice viv, so my Green Tree Frog (currently languishing in a little horizontal 10 gallon tank), is going to enjoy this one.

Once I get the hang of it, I want to get some pumilio for the other one. People breed those in a ten, so I suppose they would be happier in a 20 long.

Also I tried to silicone some bed-a-beast on to the back ground. Im not sure, but I think I was having trouble getting the bed-a-beast to stick to the background. It was like the stuff was sucking up all the silicone and detaching it from foam.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Wow, what a nice job on the foam!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Looks good Cesar!

I’ve only made one viv with coco fiber on Handi Foam. I used Gorilla Glue to attach the coco fiber but I will not use it again. The Gorilla Glue foams as it cures and I had to keep touching up patches where the light colored glue-foam showed through. 

What name brand of tank is that? I haven’t seen many 10s made with tempered glass.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

The one time I helped someone with the silicone/coco method for backgrounds, we basically dumped a load of silicone on the foam, smeared it around, dumped a load of coco on the silicone and then smashed it in. Not a pretty process, and it's not exact by any means, but we got pretty good results. Even after only doing it once I knew I woudln't be doing it again and have used the concrete binder/peat process for my newest tanks and much prefer it, mainly just because the end results are better.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2006)

How does the concrete binder/peat method work? Sounds interesting. Is there a specific recipe to use?


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

I, too, would like to hear more. This certainly isn't mentioned nearly as often as the silicone/coco method...


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

It comes up about month and the method is slowly gaining acceptance. Here's a recent thread about it, not the greatest, but it'll get you going. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17644


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2006)

Thanks for the link, I've seen it come up but never really understood what it is. So you mix the binder and peat and slap that on the foam, correct? Is there a pic floating around of the finished product?

oops nevermind, I found a few sites showing it:
http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e030223.html
http://imageevent.com/audiomaster/40gallonhexagon


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Exactly. It looks like damp dirt when it's done. Here's one of the tanks I used it in:


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2006)

Wow, its not too heavy for the foam? I gotta say, this is my first time using foam of any kind and It doesnt look like it can hold up that much weight.

Chris, I dont remember the brand name of the tanks but they are not all glass aquariums you find at Petland.
Oh and they are 20 gallon Longs.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Stratigic placing my good friend. None of that is being held up by the foam, all of its weight is resting on the false bottom. Even then, that's only about 10lbs of wood. But lets say that the foam was holding the wood, or you wanted to do your next tank that way, the weight of the wood is spread across its surface area. Because of that, the foam is actually only holding very little at any one point. On your next tank, spray a little extra on in a place or two and try to "carve" it by riping the extra off. The foam is alot stronger than you think. 

Same tank, just wood. 










Since I usually use dirt to fill behind the wood in my tanks, I've got in the habit of doing things this way. Now I'm using foam basically to occupy volume behind wood because it's so much lighter than dirt.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Wow, what a great system--and great looking tanks!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

C’mon Cesar, get that camera out and show us how it is coming along.

Mike,
Looken good, my friend, looken good.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Diane, Chris, 
Thanks! 

And yea, Ceasar, get on the ball buddy, we're an anxious crowd over here. (Coming from somone who can't keep updates close together for his life)


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2006)

Hey guys. I'll try to post some updates. Im working on the tank now, trying to silicone the rest of the coco fiber on to the great stuff. I don't think I have enough silicone. However, the two little spots I did on Thursday look much better than I expected!!!

Now here is a question. For this tank I put black silicone on to the glass and then added handi foam. Is this really necessary? Does it help to make the background(foam) stronger, or will foam attach itself to glass with the same strength? I sprayed some foam on an extra piece of glass and wasn't to impressed with how easily I could rip it off.

Thanks.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Cesar, I’ve also seen how easily a small piece is removed from glass. On the other hand, I made a large viv with a Handi Foam background (no silicone underneath), where I can’t pull the ghost wood out of the Handi Foam. You would think it would pull away from the glass but it’s not budging. I decided not to use that viv (technical problem) and would like to use the ghost wood for something else. It’s really stuck in there though. With this in mind, I’m not sure that the silicone under the foam is necessary.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2006)

I don't think I will apply a first coat of silicone to the glass on the second 20 L.

Furthur more, I've been applying some clear silicone to the foam to attach the coco fiber. It seems to look just like the black silicone. Are there any particular reasons why I shouldnt use clear silicone? Shipping for all glass aquarium black silicone is such a hassel.

What was the verdict on the GE Silicone with Bioseal???


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

If the foam tears, it's a failure of the foam and isn't due to what it was put on. If it was a failure of the bond, then the substrate is a factor for sufficient bonding. From my experience, the foam will fail in almost all cases. 

Keep in mind though, that when the foam expands it will cover part of the substrate and appear to be bonded to it when it all reality it is not. That is just the nature of the foam and that it cures from the outside in and doesn't relate to the substrate. if you want that area to be bonded, let it cure, then spray a small amount of foam between the cured foam and the substrate. 

Since silicone and polyurethane (what the foam is made of) don't adhear well to each other, I would expect a worse bond between the silicone and the foam than the glass and the foam. Silicone is usually just used to black out the glass so the foam can't be seen. That was one of the big things about handi foam - it's black so the silicone step could be skipped and it woudldn't look horrible.


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2006)

Would a no/low foaming polyurethane glue work better than silicone when attaching the mix to the GS?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Cesar,

Some people have used silicone with Bioseal, and say that they haven’t had any problems. Historically silicone has had Arsenic added to it, to prevent molding. I don’t know what the bioseal is, but if it is not food safe, I would question it. I don’t think you want Arsenic in your viv!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

nawth21,
If you were thinking of Gorilla Glue, read my comments on page 4. :wink:


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## Guest (Jul 17, 2006)

Grassypeak said:


> nawth21,
> If you were thinking of Gorilla Glue, read my comments on page 4. :wink:


I did :wink: But I've seen some so called no foaming polyurethane glues on the market and was wondering if those would work better.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Possibly, the Gorilla Glue was a major PITA!


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2006)

Oh wow, I thought I had posted the update with the pictures. Anyway, here they are:

Here is what it looked like yesterday morning:









Then after some work throughout the day I ended up here:









Obvioulsy the best way to do this is by applying the silicone in small patches and throwing, pressing the coco fiber on quickly. Then you work your way around the whole background by sections. Spreading the silicone on the foam is even less fun that it is to spread it on the glass! I think I won't be doing the other until at least a month from now.

I ran out of silicone and will go out and buy more. I don't see the advantage in using black silicone over clear in applying coco fiber. It all ends up looking like, well, coco fiber. So Im going to continue by trying to find a store that sells all glass aquarium clear silicone, in large amounts.
So for the quality of the pictures, I had to use my cell phone as my regular camera is out on loan :roll: .

Oh and I also trimmed off a section of the foam, about an 1 1/2" off the bottom. It wasn't touching the glass there. However I found that the foam has adhered very nicely to the silicone on the glass. I even tried to pull it off and I had to exert alot of force just to get a grip on it. I think it will hold!


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## Devi (May 24, 2006)

Wow! Your background looks really good!
I'm working on that part of my 18x18x24 right now too!
I was also impressed at the strength of the foam...
It held my Cork and Ghostwood a lot better than I thought it would!

You're right... your Green Tree Frog is going
to be really, really happy in there.


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## Guest (Jul 19, 2006)

Thanks Devi!

Yesterday I completely finished the background, clear silicone looks bad on the edges, not a big deal. I left the viv open facing an AC unit to dry out the silicone, there was no smell this morning, yeay!! Also I left it with 2 inches of water to test the lower glass insert for leaks. Its dry as a bone on the outside,  .
I cleaned the glass up as much as I could with Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. It works well in getting rid of silicone finger prints and smudges. I used a razor blade for anything thicker.
Now Im ready for the door and screen. Yikes!! Wish me luck!!!!!!


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2006)

Here is a little update. I siliconed the screen for ventilation on to the top of the tank. I siliconed the brass hinges and the latch to the glass door too. This morning it was all cured and looked great.









If you squint you can see the latch attached to the screen on the lower left corner of the screen.

I used some clamps to make sure the screen would stick as close to the rim of the tank as possible. I was worried that the glass door was to long (by a millimeter).








And it worked. It now opens smoothly as opposed to before when it was really really tight.

And here are the brass hinges. They work like a charm. Im happy!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Lookin’ good Cesar, What are you going to do about a substrate? Have you thought about using PrimeAgra?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2006)

Yes, I was to use a mix of Leca Balls and Prime Agra (basically identical) as drainage. Are you suggesting I use only that? Though I don't know if I want it all to be Leca. I suppose Im not sure. What do you think?


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2006)

Update time:

I got some plants from Antone. They are great, to say the least.
I used leca and primeagra (I know, same thing) as the bottom drainage layer, about 4 inches high. I put gravel on the sides of the glass as I don't like the way leca looks. I used some mosquito netting to separate the soil from the gravel, (wait what soil you ask). The soil that I put ontop of the mesh netting covered leca and gravel.
Then I added some leaf litter. I didnt like the way the leaf litter looked when it covered the whole foot print of the viv, so I only covered most of the tank.


























I really like the way the screen came out. It really keeps the front glass clear. I'm gonna put in a hygrometer or two, to see how the humidity is acting.
So far, I LOVE VERTICALS!!!! I could fit my whole head inside the tank!! Not that I would do that with the frogs in there, but it was fun.

Sorry for the pic quality, I was using the camera phone, at least there is no flash.
I will take some descent pics tomorrow once I get my camera back!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2006)

*UPDATE*

Well update with better pics. Nothing new!










Thats the full frontal shot!
You can see the new digital temp and humidity reader with min/max memmory.









Leaf litter, Magnolias from a few branches that fell during the storms last week.









Thats a little pond in the front. 










Top of the viv. All those cuttings and broms I got from Antone, more on the way!


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

What does your warning sticker say?


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2006)

:lol:

Just says "WARNING: Screen will not stop children from falling out window. Keep child away from open window."


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Cesar,

How do you expect the frogs to read that when they're on the inside?!


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2006)

Well, I don't. I expect it to be read by passers by and think "Crap, maybe whatever is inside that will get out too!!"


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2006)

Cesar, i just read this whole thread. great documentation!! im really slow at updates so im going to post my next journal all at once. my last one took 6 months to complete :lol:


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Yea, me too. Mine is taking around two months. I think it's the 80ish pictures that are slowing the process down though. 

I've considered putting warnings on my tanks, just for people who don't "get it", but I haven't made a decision yet. Anyway as I ramble on, very nice work. So, when you starting your next ones?


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

I'm hoping to start the next one in the next few weeks. That is, the second 20 Long. This time for sure for the little green tree frog.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Hey Cesar,

I’ve seen green tree frogs in the wild. They love to cram themselves down into the area where the leaf meets a plant. I found them in this thorny Agave type of plant. I suffered many puncture wounds that day! They were well protected tucked way down by the plant’s “stem” (for want of a better word). A large brom would probably make a perfect substitute. Something like Inca X Fireball might be perfect in a 20LV. 

Also, the frogs that I found were in a dry area. You may already know this, but I’ve heard that tree frogs generally like less humidity than darts. A larger vent area may be in order on the second tank.

Cheers,
Chris


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

Thanks chris. I didnt know that. Or more likely I forgot.
I think instead of putting in a bigger vent, I will attach a fan to this one. 

I found that I don't have to attach a fan to the pumilio tank as the front glass stays dry all the time, but the humidity reads at 87% towards the front at only 5" below the vent.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

I have a fan on my 25 gal vert, doesnt affect the humidity much but works well enough to get some air flow and drop the temps a few degrees. My whites TF likes humidity between 50-70%, not sure on the green ones.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

Is it better to have the fan suck air out, or blow air in?? That is, which is better if you want to keep the humidity down between 50%-70%.
When I was still letting the tank dry out a bit (silicone) the humidity was 56%, so I suppose I will never get humididty that low, not so long as I insist on closing the door lol.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

I dont know, mines blowing air in..the suction doesnt seem all that powerful but maybe someone who has it set up that way will chime in. But, I havent let the humidity get all that low so I dont really know just how much it will drop with the fan going. I also have a heat bulb on my TF cage so that helps dry it out a bit.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Is it better to have the fan suck air out, or blow air in??


Makes no difference as long as new air can come it while the old air is being pulled out. If you put a fan on your vent, it'll work pretty much the same either way.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2006)

i always point the air out. i had a fire in my house and the tanks with fans blowing in were completely black. the ones with air going out looked just like normal. i figure dust in the house works just like this on a smaller scale, so for piece of mind i blow mine out.

as for the tree frogs i dont think youll have aproblem having them at higher humidity. ive heard the same about them, but when i kept them at around 60% i didnt get to see them much, unless i looked inside a cork tube. keeping them at 80% or so seemed to bring them out a bit more. also, if you can get some type of dusk/dawn effect, it may help bring it out. the last viv i had with green tree frogs in it, was set up with a large waterfall and a lot of water. once the first set of lights went off you would see the males move to their prefered calling spots, and shortly after begin to sing. this viv stayed between 80-100% depending if you measured at the end with the waterfall. good luck!!


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## Guest (Aug 21, 2006)

*UPDATE*

I'm almost finsihed with my 2nd 20 Long. I made alot of short cuts on this one. I didn't use any silicone on the back glass to hide the handi foam. 
I also ran out of fomo (used to much as I was spraying), and didn't bother to get more. So I filled in the gaps with Osmunda for plants. 
I did find out that Handi foam will bond to glass without any problems. Infact, I only siliconed one piece of drift wood to the back glass, and used only handi foam to hold the other two. The two being supported by foam are actually stronger than the one stuck with silicone!!! :shock: 

I also somehow ended up scratching all the glass involved, :roll:. That includes the side glasses, the front door, the bottom glass, the top, etc.....

Here are the pics. The drift wood I think is killer!

Tomorrow, I will fill it in with gravel near the glass, and LECA in the center. The substrate will be my left over coco-fiber. No fancy shmancy terrarium soil.










Here you can see the position of the latch. In this position the opening and closing of the front door does not loosen the latch, as it does in my first 20. Go to the beggining of this thread to see where I put the latch in the first one.









Move over Rhino Rock ( :twisted: )


















Since this is going to be for a green tree frog and needs less humidity, I will be putting a large computer fan on top of the screen front.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Glad to see an update. I like the wood, too. Looking good!


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2006)

A little update. I added the gravel, leca, and substrate. 









I'm probably gonna have to add more coco earth once it gets moist and it no longer is fluffy.
Thats the pond area (mostly for drainage) in the lower right corner. Its actually very deep.










Oh, and a nice little ledge that worked out with my drift wood. I wonder what nice little plant will call that ledge a home?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Looking good. The driftwood arrangement is nice.


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## Guest (Aug 26, 2006)

Ok, started planting this one. I've decided to go for only orchids in this one.
I will be adding a fan, or maybe two to this one.










I've put in a Ludisia discolor cutting, 








And a Phalaenopsis Mini Mark 'Holm' which came in bloom








a Keferstenia tolimensis








An Angraecum scottianum all the way at the top for max lighting








And a Bulbophyllum dearei


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Cesar you are a thief! You stole that all orchid idea from me, and you know it!

Just kiddin’ :wink: . The tank looks good. I think the idea of making an orchid viv for tree frogs is great. The requirements of the tree frog, gives you much more room as far as available orchids goes.

Good luck with your little treasures.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Oh, how pretty! I love that phal! All those orchids look so nice in there.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2006)

Thanks!!!!


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