# Dieing Mint Terribilis



## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

So I had 5 Mint Terribilis, all had been doing great, eating, no issues with them fighting, etc... I would literally sit and watch and make sure they all got some flies or crickets to eat at each feeding. Then I noticed one hanging out in the waterfall or sitting on the edge of the pond a lot, didnt think much of it, and about a week later, found him dead in the tank. Same thing just happened again today, all had been eating, even saw them all eat YESTERDAY afternoon, today, one that I had seen recently hanging out around the water, dead. Today I saw all three around the water more than normal, and the smallest of the three sitting in the water. I only have one quarantine container so I pulled out the guy that was sitting in the water and put him in it. The other two are the two largest, and are around the water, but not sitting in it, but around it more than I have seen them before.

They are fed daily with fruit flies that are dusted, and maybe once a week they will get some 10-day old pin head crickets.

I mist their tank a couple times a week with RO water, and they have a water fall with a small pond (maybe a cup of water in the pond at most), which is also all RO water that I change out every month or so.

The tank itself is kept pretty consistently around 69-71 degrees, and is well planted with plenty of areas for each to have their own hiding spot without any fighting. Humidity is obviously kept up due to the water fall and pond. The misting is mostly done for the plants that are mounted to the background away from the water fall.

I really have no clue what is wrong with them... any help would really be appreciated... I am getting really frusterated...


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Do you have a humidity gauge? I know that you have the waterfall and all, but that doesn't mean that your humidity is ok. If you don't have one I would recommend getting one. It sounds to me like they may be getting too dry.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> Do you have a humidity gauge? I know that you have the waterfall and all, but that doesn't mean that your humidity is ok. If you don't have one I would recommend getting one. It sounds to me like they may be getting too dry.


Just checked the humidity with a digital guage and it is at 83% with a temp of 72.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

The temperature on your tank is a bit low. I would suggest a temperature in the 75-78 range during the day with a drop at night. 

Any time my frogs have been kept at the temperatures you have yours at for any length of time I have had issues - including deaths.



therizman2 said:


> So I had 5 Mint Terribilis, all had been doing great, eating, no issues with them fighting, etc... I would literally sit and watch and make sure they all got some flies or crickets to eat at each feeding. Then I noticed one hanging out in the waterfall or sitting on the edge of the pond a lot, didnt think much of it, and about a week later, found him dead in the tank. Same thing just happened again today, all had been eating, even saw them all eat YESTERDAY afternoon, today, one that I had seen recently hanging out around the water, dead. Today I saw all three around the water more than normal, and the smallest of the three sitting in the water. I only have one quarantine container so I pulled out the guy that was sitting in the water and put him in it. The other two are the two largest, and are around the water, but not sitting in it, but around it more than I have seen them before.
> 
> They are fed daily with fruit flies that are dusted, and maybe once a week they will get some 10-day old pin head crickets.
> 
> ...


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

Ok, I can just move my lights closer and easily increase the temperature to within 75-77 degrees pretty easily. Do you think it could all just be temperature related?


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

Just be careful with raising them too high. I have heard of people losing entire groups because the temps got over 80. I keep mine on the bottom shelf and my frog room stays about 70-74 degrees, lower at night. I have not had any problems with the adults or froglets at these temps. I hope you can figure it out. It sucks to lose a frog, especially if you don't know why.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

this seems really strange to me, but seems like they are drawn to the water for some reason so im in agree with jubjub, but your guage seems like normal temps and humidity... were they bloated or skinny or anything? this seems like its gonna be really hard to get to the bottom of this one...good luck with the others, what is your pond made from? is it possible that there could be something in the water that is killing them?

p.s. my terribs are doing really well and at 10 months old, their tank temps and humidity change all the time never drops below 73, normal is around 77 but ive seen it at 82 before sometimes and they always seem to be acting completely normal


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

reggorf said:


> Just be careful with raising them too high. I have heard of people losing entire groups because the temps got over 80. I keep mine on the bottom shelf and my frog room stays about 70-74 degrees, lower at night. I have not had any problems with the adults or froglets at these temps. I hope you can figure it out. It sucks to lose a frog, especially if you don't know why.


Thanks Stacey, the 5 orange guys I have are perfectly fine in a tank right next to these guys, basically exact same specs for heat, temp, etc. All are growing well, all their back are almost all orange now and looking quite beautiful!


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> this seems really strange to me, but seems like they are drawn to the water for some reason so im in agree with jubjub, but your guage seems like normal temps and humidity... were they bloated or skinny or anything? this seems like its gonna be really hard to get to the bottom of this one...good luck with the others, what is your pond made from? is it possible that there could be something in the water that is killing them?


The water thing really confused me. Not bloated or skinny, eating normally (if anything, the largest one eats till he cant find any more food and he is the one who has hardly been near the water) Pond is created from a false bottom and is lined with stuff called soilmaster select (use it in my planted aquariums) and is completely inert. Water is pure RO water that I buy from my local pet store and is the same water I use in all my other tanks where all of the frogs are fine.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

seems like your doing everything right,,, maybe send out fecals?


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## reggorf (Oct 24, 2006)

I was going to suggest fecals as well. I have heard that frogs with parasites tend to sit in the water a lot.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

I don't know if I would go so far as to say only frogs with parasites tend to sit in water....often what I have seen is any frog that is sick, stressed or unhealthy is drawn to water. At least that has been my experience.

I don't know why - might be some natural reaction - but I have noticed the sitting in water behavior before I lost a frog as well. 

My suggestion about the temperature is just that, a suggestion. It does seem a little low. If the frogs are having issues with it, they are probably stressed out which will make them more susceptible to infections, fungus, and any other 'nasty' out there. If you do decide to raise it, do it slowly. 

Even though you have two tanks of terribilis side by side, the environments in the tank might be very different. 

One other thing - you mentioned that you have a water fall in the tank with a small pond. You are changing the water in the tank out every month...correct? Why??? When was the last water change? Just curious as to your answer - I only add water to my tanks with water falls - and will seldom do a change. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but my thoughts on removing water in a tank is that you have a biological filter in place. Disturbing the water by draining it regularly runs the risk of breaking the filter - which could result in a short term increase in the bacteria levels of the tank, correct? 

Just thinking about my limited knowledge of fish tanks, but isn't that part of the reason for only doing partial water changes, and having underground filters. If you disturb too much while cleaning you can have other issues....

Might be wrong, but I am curious as to what others think. 



reggorf said:


> I was going to suggest fecals as well. I have heard that frogs with parasites tend to sit in the water a lot.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

melissa68 said:


> I don't know if I would go so far as to say only frogs with parasites tend to sit in water....often what I have seen is any frog that is sick, stressed or unhealthy is drawn to water. At least that has been my experience.
> 
> I don't know why - might be some natural reaction - but I have noticed the sitting in water behavior before I lost a frog as well.
> 
> ...


I will increase it slowly, I moved the lights a bit closer and I turned up the space heater in my room another degree which will help.

The last water change was about three weeks ago now. The false bottom holds somewhere around 10gallons of water and I change out around 5gals a month (half of the water that is circulating). All of my fish tanks I change out around 15-20% every two weeks at minimum, so I figured the same should be done in my frog tank to just keep the water clean and minimize any bacteria, etc that might accumulate in the water. If this is not necessary, I would be more than glad to stop doing it, it is not an easy process for me due to the position of the tank in my room. Also, I should mention the water is running through an actual fish tank filter (Rena Filstar XP1), so the biological filtration is never disturbed when I do the water changes.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

Well I just got home from work and they are all dead now... are local vets usually able to determine what caused the death? I have them each in their own ziploc bag in the fridge to preserve them.


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

First, let me say I am very sorry for your losses.. it is very disappointing to loose any pet and I am sorry.
If you want a someone to do a necropsy, it is very important that you contact that vet (hopefully one experienced with dart frogs ) right away to find out how they want the frog(s) preserved until they get them as my understanding is this that they have very specific guidelines to make sure that they gain the necessary information from the body.
I don't believe Dr Frye does necropsies any more, but I am sure he can suggest who you could contact that would be experienced in this area. YOu can find his contact information on Frye Brothers Frogs website or there is a sticky I believe in the vendors section or somewhere near the bottom of the forum...
The thing that I would do at this point that I personally think would be your most cost effective method of likely diagnosis would be to collect a fecal on the frogs...The sticky that was posted by Rich Frye gives a detailed explanation of how to collect this... If I am understanding correctly the last of your frogs died today, so the fecal samples should still be fresh enough for testing and Dr Frye is even running a sale this month, so I believe it is only $12 per sample... one per tank... collect 5-6 poo samples and put in an airtight container on a damp papertowel and overnight to him tomorrow morning... for arrival on Friday... then he can run a fecal and find out what was wrong with the frogs(presuming it is something you can diagnosis via a fecal but I think it is fairly likely you will find something).
From everything I have read, the behavior you described is very typical of sick frogs... they go to water before they die... and if one frog in the tank is sick with something contagious they will all become sick since they are all housed in the same tank.
At this point, the fecal holds very important information for you because if it was something that you can diagnosis via a fecal, it would mean that your tank is likely infected and if you put any future frogs in an infected tank, they will likely die or become sick too, so if you do find they were sick, you will probably need to break down the tank and start again before getting any new frogs. 
In my opinion, the quarantine is every bit as important and if not more important for the healthy frogs as for the sick frogs... to keep the healthy ones from being infected or to treat them if they were and to keep from infecting your tank... 
I quarantine and test every new frog I get into my collection and all but two of my frogs are captive breed and I treat and retest every sick frog before placing into a permanent viv and even with captive breed frogs from reputable breeders you would not believe the very high percentage of new frogs I get that come back positive for something... at least hookworm.. it is very common. 
I am sure if you want to go the necropsy route Dr Frye can recommend someone, but I would at least start with the inexpensive fecal to rule out many of the potential causes and if they come back with a high load of something you will at least know for sure that you would need to break down your tank and start again.
Good luck,
Marissa


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

I have an experience that I wanted to add that might be helpful to you and others: I wanted to mention that since I have started testing every new aquisition, I have found that over 50% of the captive breed frogs that I have purchased have come back with something.. and I have purchased all of them through reputable breeders that many people seem to think could never sell an infected frog or through purchases on Dendroboard. 

The most common thing that I have found is hookworm and is found in low or high loads in may new frogs I have purchased. I have also had a new group of frogs come back positive for lungworm and another new group of frogs that even came back with Coccidia! While all of the frogs that came back sick were very upsetting, Coccidia was a heartbreaking diagnosis because this is incurable in dart frogs and due to the fact that it could in theory be spread to other frogs in your collection even via a fruitfly, it is something I would never keep in the same house with the rest of my collection that I care so much for and have spent so much on. Coccidia is also very difficult and or near impossible to remove from a tank and I would never reuse any tank or other anythign that has been used to house infected frogs.

I can't tell you how many people, including those who have breed many frogs who seem to think that parasites do not occur in captive breed frogs and that they are safe since they are not purchasing wild caught frogs. This is simply not true and from the research I have done and the experienced people I have spoken to, it is quite the opposite since frogs in the wild have so much space to roam and things such as UV light to break down the poo and any potential parasites... CB frogs are in a closed environment where their poo builds up over time and it is not hard to understand the risks to them when this happens or when they are housed with a sick frog... they all become sick.

Early on I used to do the same as many people who "quarantine" their frogs simply by putting them in a small container and observing for some time... or even with my first frogs just putting straight in the viv since they are all from the same reputable breeder... no more.

I changed my practice when I bought my first very expensive frogs. I sent out my first fecals just as a precaution not expecting to find anything, but just to be sure since I spent so much... sure enough they came back with a small load of hookworm.. and so did two other new also high priced aquisitions & also some frogs from a very well known breeder and those came back with a very high load of hookworm... all were new in my collection and in brand new quarantine containers.. I was SO disappointed. I could not believe that I had spent so much on them and they were sick. However, in talking to the vet, I found out that this is very very common. So I treated the frogs and began testing my whole collection and now test every new frog I bring into my house.

This is how I caught the Coccidia frogs. They looked completely healthy... they were a new group of proven breeders I bought and from watching them in quarantine and looking at them you would never be able to tell they are sick.. it is only because I routinely test every frog when I get it in that I caught this. Otherwise I would have had these frogs in my collection, housed on a shelf near my other frogs where they could have potentially infected my other frogs. It was such a disappointing experience, but one I was so lucky that I learned before than to fecal them all as I could have infected any of my other frogs if I had not. Luckily I caught and was able to separate right away and of course as a result they also never infected one of my vivs.

Since I know how disappointing it is to purchase and receive sick frogs, I have also started testing my baby frogs that I raise once they reach an age (over 1 month) where they can be tested. While we can never be sure our frogs are completely healthy, I am doing everything in my power to make sure that I don't provide that experience for anyone else.

I know I used to think and I also know several of my friends used to think fecaling was somewhat cost restrictive, but since I have had this close call with the coccidia frogs, i have realized that in the scheme of the cost of most peoples collections, fecalling is such a low cost.. especially since you only need to test any group of frogs that is housed in the same viv.. not each frog separately. Several of my friends have also changed their view and have begun testing their collection and/ or new aquisitions from seeing the experience I had with this.

The other good thing about quarantining AND testing is that from what I have found from most of the positive tests that I have received, luckily most things that I have seen- usually hookworm and also the case of lungworm are easily and safely treatable with panacur. In those cases, I have found it easy to just keep a longer quarantine and treatment period and in the end, when frogs are finally put into their vivs when completely healthy, then you don't risk any frogs housed with them and you also don't risk the loss of the time and cost put into your viv. It is so cheap and easy to change out and break down quarantines within a few minutes, but quite a different story if you infect a viv by adding a frog that has not been tested and turns out to be sick.

I am sorry for such a long post, but my friends were encouraging me to tell others on Dendroboard about this and I have been contemplating starting a thread in hopes that others will save the disappointment of finding a sick frog or frogs too late, but I thought that this was an appropriate place to mention it and I hope that it will be helpful to many people but also to the person who started this thread just in case his/her viv is infected with something that could infect future frogs so he/ she does not loose any more.

Marissa


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Marissa,

There are a ton of threads on this subject already. 

Dr. Kevin Wright DVM has started posting & has over 20 years experience with amphibians. What I found interesting in this post that fecals done on frogs poo more than a few hours old might not tell the entire story of what is going on. 

The thread above would be a good place to add your comments and observations.


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

melissa68 said:


> One other thing - you mentioned that you have a water fall in the tank with a small pond. You are changing the water in the tank out every month...correct? Why??? When was the last water change? Just curious as to your answer - I only add water to my tanks with water falls - and will seldom do a change. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but my thoughts on removing water in a tank is that you have a biological filter in place. Disturbing the water by draining it regularly runs the risk of breaking the filter - which could result in a short term increase in the bacteria levels of the tank, correct?
> 
> Just thinking about my limited knowledge of fish tanks, but isn't that part of the reason for only doing partial water changes, and having underground filters. If you disturb too much while cleaning you can have other issues....
> 
> Might be wrong, but I am curious as to what others think.


Doing regular water changes is good to avoid the build-up of nitrate. Biological filters will turn amonia into nirtite then convert nitrite to nitrate. The best way to get rid of nitrate is by dong partial water changes. You could do a full water change and not really affect the amount of biological filtration as long as the filter remains wet. The bacteria will remain but could lower in numbers due to lack of "food" source for them, but they should be ok. 

It is best however to do partial water changes (20% per month) especially if you have creatures living in the water (fish, inverts, plants). If you do more than 20% water change you run the chance of changing too much (temp, chlorine, nitrates, pH) which could cause stress.

Water changes are a good thing. There are just some things your filter can't get rid of. Just keep in small.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Won't the presence of live plants help the entire process? Help with the nitrate build up?


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

To the OP. Just like others have said, get fecals run and up the temp for now, but do it gradually to avoid stress.



melissa68 said:


> Won't the presence of live plants help the entire process? Help with the nitrate build up?


Yes they will help to keep it in check, but you need to have a lot of them and they need to be interacting with the water. Melissa68, next time you feel like doing an experiment, take some of your water feature water into a pet store (if you don't have a test kit) and have them test it for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It should be free. It would be interesting to see what is really there.

According to Tom Barr's EI paper, a well-fertilized, densely planted aquarium, with intense lighting will "consume" between 1 and 4 ppm of NO3 per day.
The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Jason said:


> Doing regular water changes is good to avoid the build-up of nitrate. Biological filters will turn amonia into nirtite then convert nitrite to nitrate. The best way to get rid of nitrate is by dong partial water changes. You could do a full water change and not really affect the amount of biological filtration as long as the filter remains wet. The bacteria will remain but could lower in numbers due to lack of "food" source for them, but they should be ok.
> 
> It is best however to do partial water changes (20% per month) especially if you have creatures living in the water (fish, inverts, plants). If you do more than 20% water change you run the chance of changing too much (temp, chlorine, nitrates, pH) which could cause stress.
> 
> Water changes are a good thing. There are just some things your filter can't get rid of. Just keep in small.


To elaborate a bit more on this...the only way to remove nitrates from the water is to do partial water changes. Nitrates is the biological bacteria's dead end. The way that nature uses nitrates is by algae growth using the nitrates as a natural fertilizer and plants whose roots interact with the water. One good way to naturally filter nitrates in the viv is with the use of aquatic plants. If you have a deeper area of water and have flowing water your options are going to be far greater. I've found in the past that duckweed does a very good job of filtering nitrates, but it needs to be cultivated often to keep it from taking over the water feature. On shallower and stagnant water sections you can grow several plants such as anubias, java moss and moneywart. Typically nitrates are not going to be harmful to fish or amphibians unless they are very high. I would be interested to see what a water sample of the water feature in this viv showed. It could be a contributor to the health problems of these frogs and I would imagine that the other vivs in this collection may have water features that this could pertain too as well.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

hmm...well, most of my tanks with water features have aquatic plants, algae, and other plants are usually overgrown to the point of poppin' the lid off. 

If you take a side view of the terrarium, they are usually full of roots. The sides of the tank and the water features are covered with algae and I let them go. 

Overall, I take a pretty passive role on all my tanks. I try to disturb them as little as possible and only open them to feed, trim plants or do an occasional water change. I am honest when I say I am never going to win any awards for pretty tanks. 

Honestly, my biggest problems with any tanks I have is having too vigorous plant growth. 

Over the last few years I have been cutting back on the number of waterfall tanks because of their weight and an unfortunate incident where the pump shorted and killed the 1st azureus pair I owned. 

Well, guess it is time to get the python out & do some water changes, huh?





Jason said:


> To the OP. Just like others have said, get fecals run and up the temp for now, but do it gradually to avoid stress.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

melissa68 said:


> Marissa,
> 
> There are a ton of threads on this subject already.
> 
> ...



Melissa-
I'm not sure if I am doing this quotation thing properly as this is my first time attempting, but yes, I have read that thread before... if I remember correctly it really started more as a poll to see whether people TREAT their collection based on test results, or just as a preventative or whether they never treat, rather than a post on the importance of testing per se or even a poll on how many people do test fecal samples. The point I was trying to make had more to do with the importance of having fecal tests done-especially if you have reason to suspect that something may be amiss- such as the frogger that started this thread for help because his frogs in one of his tanks were dying one by one rather quickly. 

I do thank you for re-directing me as someone has since provided the answer to a question I had asked in that thread and Dr. Wright joined the thread and posted after I read it and his information is and was very valuable to me, so I appreciate seeing that- thank you. 

However, I did not take his post to mean that people should not run fecals if they cannot have them read within 4 hours of deposition. He did mention that the best information is provided from fecal samples that are less than 4 hours old which of course makes sense, but I don't think that is realistic to expect that most people would have access to a vet who is experienced with darts who could test within 4 hours of the frog providing the sample. Unless you have the necessary equipment and know how and enough experience with fecals to identify different parasites, eggs, etc , then you would have to rely on a vet for help with this. I know that there are people on this board with access to a high quality microscope and the ID knowlege that they can and do test themselves and that is fantastic, but I would guess that a very high percentage of hobbiests do not or do not wish to take this on themselves and so rely on a vet for these tests. If so, for most of us, that means overnighting a sample to an DVM with Dart frog experience which means that the test would not be run within 4 hours. They always ask that you collect the freshest fecal matter, but I think this is also one of the reasons you have to provide 5-6 samples to make sure that you do end up with fresh ones (as you can't always tell for sure- they never seem to want to go on the paper towel when I try that trick)... and this way the DVM can assess the samples for the most useful information. 

I am not arguing that this gives the "full story" as Dr Wright explained it does not, but it still provides plenty of useful and helpful information if your frogs are carrying a parasite. The three specific parasites I mentioned that I have come across in frogs I have purchased are three that I believe Dr. Wright specifically mentioned as being ones to worry about. If the person who started this thread were to overnight a fresh fecal sample to a qualified DVM and have it come back with a positive test for any of these- especially if it is in a very high load or if it is Coccidia then he would at least know that they WERE in fact sick and second, perhaps more important since the frogs are now deceased, he would at least know for sure that the tank needs to be fully broken down and rebuilt or in the case of coccidia to likely start with a new tank all together. For $12-18 + approximately $15 overnight USPS shipping from most areas, this is a relatively inexpensive test that has the chance to provide him with a lot of useful information if done right away.

If he goes the route of only testing the tank/ water and finds that things are Ok in that arena, are you suggesting that he simply add more frogs and try again? 

At the time I posted my suggestion last night I believe it was within hours of the last frogs deaths and therefore as fresh as any other fecal sample that most of us would send out overnight if sent the next day and are often able to find hookworm, lungworm and or coccidia in those samples and would at least tell him that he positively might need to break down and or rebuild the tank. I would just hate to hear that he puts in and looses more frogs when a simple, inexpensive test could be used to help prevent this ... so while there may be other issues as well- husbandry, temps, humidity, water, etc, I can't see any reason why this would not also be a prudent test to run since he was smart enough/ lucky enough to ask right away. I never suggested it as a sole factor to look at, but I think it would be silly not to glean whatever information is available through this test, even if it is not the "full story" and there may also be a secondary thing going on as well. I have not seen any vet, Dr Wrights posts included, that I understood to mean that you should not do a fecal if your only choice is overnight mail to do it. While it may not provide as much information as a brand new sample, it still can catch many common and harmful parasites. If these turn up negative, that would not preclude him from testing the water samples, experimenting with temps and humidity, or looking into more husbandry issues before getting replacement frogs. But if they or a necropsy were to come back positive, this would be very useful information in preventing further deaths of new frogs.

It is a shame he lost the whole group of 5 and it does not look like they were in their new gorgeous tank for long before that happened, so I just hope he does not have any more preventable deaths in the future. I was just trying to help with that as I have found in questioning fellow hobbiests and people listing frogs in the classifieds that I am interested in buying from that there are relatively few that have actually fecaled the frogs, a surprisingly high number of them that think that CB frogs are not at risk for these parasites (or that because they purchased their frogs from a well respected experienced breeder that they could not have parasites) or that these sick frogs can be caught by simply observing in quarantine rather than actual testing. I just hope that more people realize the importance of testing new aquisitions before introducing to other frogs or to their tanks and also especially in red flag situations (such as loosing 5 of 5 frogs in a tank one by one when the inhabitants in the tank right next to them seem fine) as it might save a lot of heartbreak. 

Good luck to the person who started this post and please update us and let us know if you have figured anything out... I hope you do not have any future losses and I hope we were of some help. I know the water change and water testing information in this thread was new to me and something I have learned from and will read more on and look into in the future. I hope we all continue to learn from each other.

Marissa


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Well I just got home from work and they are all dead now... are local vets usually able to determine what caused the death? I have them each in their own ziploc bag in the fridge to preserve them. 

It`s too late he already said they all died. I`m terribly sorry for your losses.
All this fecals and such wouldn`t tell you much. Parasite loads don`t kill a whole tank that fast, nor do nitrate or nitrite unless they were fertilized. You would have been better to test for chytrid. You really can`t test for virus` which could be another culprit. Or the other is an environmental toxin, such as gases built up, pesticides on plants or cleaners left in the tank. I have had darts for 12+ years now and have never had anything wipe thru a whole tank. I have had lungworm, hookworm and coccidia w/ minimal losses. The temps suggest that they were at the lethal level for chytrid.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

frogfarm said:


> It`s too late he already said they all died. I`m terribly sorry for your losses.


Yes they did die, but he has other groups of frogs so any information may still be useful in helping the other frogs in the collection.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> Yes they did die, but he has other groups of frogs so any information may still be useful in helping the other frogs in the collection.



It would. I am taking them for necropsy today to see if I can find out what caused it and have fecals to take as well that I got from the last two before they died.

All of my other frogs have been moved to another room in my house, everything that had been in my old tank or that I had kept near it I just threw out and bought new stuff just in case. No idea what I am going to do with the actual tank... I guess I will see if the vet can tell me anything, otherwise I have a ton of plants and wood that I guess Ill just need to throw out and start new.


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

Let us know what you find with the vet... Sounds like you are taking the proper precautions to protect your other frogs until you know more which is great. I really am sorry to hear about loosing your whole group and also that tank... it was gorgeous and I can't imagine having to break it down, but I guess if they come back positive for something you will have no other choice. 
I do agree with the previous post that also said to look into chytrid... especially since your temps were lower that might possibly make it show up if it were there... don't know if there is anyway they can test something from the tank or test the deceased frogs (it does not show on a fecal) but if so, I would definately have the vet check for that too if possible. 
Good luck and let us know what you find.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

therizman2 said:


> It would. I am taking them for necropsy today to see if I can find out what caused it and have fecals to take as well that I got from the last two before they died.
> 
> All of my other frogs have been moved to another room in my house, everything that had been in my old tank or that I had kept near it I just threw out and bought new stuff just in case. No idea what I am going to do with the actual tank... I guess I will see if the vet can tell me anything, otherwise I have a ton of plants and wood that I guess Ill just need to throw out and start new.


As stated in another thread IF it is something bacterial or viral if you just throw the stuff away from the tank it is possible that will spread whatever disease was in your tank. Especially if you dump substrate or water from your tank outside in your yard.


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## therizman2 (Jul 20, 2008)

Well, this thread was brought up in another where someone lost an entire tank so I figured I would update... I had necropsies done on all of the frogs, and nothing was found to be wrong. As I stated before, they had all previously been healthy in terms of appearance and had been eating readily (fruit flies and crickets) and were all very active. Within a few days of seeing them hanging around close to the water, or in the water, I would find them dead.

I am still very puzzled and now have a tank full of plants that Im afraid Im going to have to throw out, not to mention the tank and stand.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

some reason, I sense some toxin got into your tank. This is the main reason why I don't use any of these "new" vivarium building materials like Great stuff and flevopol. I used to use great stuff, but no longer do so. 

How long have they been in the tank?

Did the vet test for chytrid? Frogs with chytrid will act very strange before they die.

I once had a cobalt that got really sick and slowly declined over the course of several months. He was also soaking a lot. I called Frye, he gave me metronidazole and some panacur. I gave him a shot of metro, and he started to recover. I also gave him a little panacur, waited a few weeks, and tested for parasites and he had none.

He also had lesions on his skin that took a long time to heal, even when he was in quarantine. Now that he's in a tank by himself after a year, he gained a ton of weight and the scars are nearly gone.


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