# Pum Sexing Question



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

I picked up a group of the new pums that came in and I'm trying my best to sex them. Out of seven, I know I have 4 males, 1 female and 2 unknowns. Both of the two unknowns have been set up with a calling male and neither have made a pip. 

Aside from the obvious, calling and eggs, is there anyother way to know for sure? If I had two males set up together would they show any aggression towards one another? Are they uninterested females? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Luke


----------



## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

No, there really aren't any other ways. Calling=male, Eggs=pair. Everything else is just an "educated" guess.


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

From some stuff I've pulled up from the archives:



> Place a group of frogs in a tank and watch for breeding behavior. When you observe the behavior, pull that pair out. Continue with this process until you have determined the sex of all the frogs. I know this is more time consuming, but I think it is reliable.
> 
> In addition, I have noticed with the pumilio we had (which you now own) the males seem to be more timid and hide more. There is also the size difference with the females & the males but I don't know how reliable that will be since the frogs will be stressed.





> some trends to look for is males will be generally more slender, will have the darkened throat pouch, and males will generally seem a little more anxious, while female will tend to be more tranquil. For some reason the males often will be the ones that are running around collecting containers, while females seem to more often than not hunker down and "relax", or are often not as agitated or excitable . Also, mist the frogs like mad early in the morning and this will almost definetely ensure that any healthy mature males will call. simply separate out the calling males. Keep misting as you separate, because as you potentially remove larger, possible more dominant males, others smaller, younger, weaker? males may begin to call. In most cases healthy pumilio males should call.





> Sexing pumilio by the science is not very accurate. I have seen fat males and skinny females. Patrick has a pic of a very fat male and normal looking female if you go and d/l the pdf on raising and breeding pumilios (file size is 23mb). The dark gray spot on the throat is a dead give away that a male has called recently.


----------



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Thanks for the input guys! We'll see what happens.


----------



## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

I've got a pair and the bigger of the two is actually the male! These guys are pretty much a guess, unless calling and eggs are seen.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Mark Pepper showed me a way to sex pums. Put the frog into a jar or a see through fly container. Wet it of course. When he/she sticks to the side of it, look at the throat. Males will have 2 slanted vertical lines on their throats. Since you have some sure males, take them first so you can make sure you know what you're looking at. Then take the unknowns. Look carefully as the first time it's tricky to see those lines. One you know what the lines look like, it will be much easier


----------



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Marty,

That sounds like a good idea. Will these lines be on either side of the throat towards the sides of the head or closer in? I'll try that.

Thanks again,

LUke


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Yes, they will be on either side of the throat, delicate lines but you'll definitely see it. Try it with a known male first. 




Lukeomelas said:


> Marty,
> 
> That sounds like a good idea. Will these lines be on either side of the throat towards the sides of the head or closer in? I'll try that.
> 
> ...


----------



## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

How reliable is this method ... can you sex 100% of the time if you know what you are looking for.




Reed


----------



## Jesse (Sep 19, 2005)

*Good..*

Good question I would also like to know the answer as I am trying to sex some of my pums?

Jesse


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

*Re: Good..*

I believe if the pum is an adult, you will see the vertical lines on the throat. When I was at Mark's place he had a bunch of them in containers, so I was sexing up a storm. 



Jesse said:


> Good question I would also like to know the answer as I am trying to sex some of my pums?
> 
> Jesse


----------



## Jesse (Sep 19, 2005)

*Okay..*

Okay, Thanks Marty. I for sure have a calling male and will take a look at the other one.

Jesse


----------



## verbal (Sep 8, 2004)

I'll try with my known males too. If I can, I'll try to get a picture of the lines!

Ryan


----------



## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

Has anyone else been able to do this. I'm having a hard time ... if someone could get a picture that would be great.


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

pic would be hard to do... Lines are very fine and you'd need a macro and probably 8mpix camera, then lighting would need to be perfect and focus dead on...good luck


hm... this is close you can see one of the lines here 

http://dendroboard.com/coppermine/displ ... 211&pos=10






VTHokie said:


> Has anyone else been able to do this. I'm having a hard time ... if someone could get a picture that would be great.


----------



## treefrog (Jan 23, 2005)

Hi there,
I use the exact some methods as Marty for sexing pums and up to date it has been 100% accurate.
I don't know about the last shipment that came in in the US but here in Canada, there was about 200 pums that came in and near 90% were female. Is it the same in the US?
Also, when looking at all the pums at the same time, I can't see a clear difference between the San Christobal and the Broncos...there is a lot of intermediate forms between the two morphs which make impossible to separate them in two clear group.


----------



## VTHokie (Jun 28, 2005)

Just to clarify it doesn't have to have been recently calling to see these lines does it?


----------



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Hey Marty,

Thanks for posting the pic. Are we talking about the little short line inbetween the two finger pads, just to the right of the center of the throat?


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

Lukeomelas said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> Thanks for posting the pic. Are we talking about the little short line inbetween the two finger pads, just to the right of the center of the throat?


Yes, there will be two of these lines, on either side of the throat. In this pic only one side is visible. Remember this line will be pretty thin, it's easy to see on this pic because the frog is 20 times larger then in real life. Once you have the little guy in a test tube or in a container you'll need to look hard, but you'll see it


----------



## Guest (May 14, 2006)

*i was wondering?*

Sexing pumilio by the science is not very accurate. I have seen fat males and skinny females. Patrick has a pic of a very fat male and normal looking female if you go and d/l the pdf on raising and breeding pumilios (file size is 23mb). The dark gray spot on the throat is a dead give away that a male has called recently. 


I saw this posted and was wondering what the web site was to download the pdf file. thank you...


----------



## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

See pdf slide show here:

http://www.saurian.net/images2/pumilio.pdf

And other articles by Patrick here:

http://www.saurian.net/htm/dartfrogs1.htm

Great stuff!  

--Diane


----------



## Marty (Feb 27, 2004)

No problems, the pic is not mine however. It's from somone named 'kinetic' in the gallery





Lukeomelas said:


> Hey Marty,
> 
> Thanks for posting the pic. Are we talking about the little short line inbetween the two finger pads, just to the right of the center of the throat?


----------



## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Hi All,
What sex do you think this Shepherds Island Pum is, based on the line sexing technique?


----------



## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

From speaking with alot of people, it seems that the US shipments were extremely female heavy too. I know many people are looking for males.

Rob


----------



## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

rjmarchisi said:


> From speaking with alot of people, it seems that the US shipments were extremely female heavy too. I know many people are looking for males.
> 
> Rob


Which pum shipments?


----------



## Paul E. Wog (Jan 2, 2005)

rjmarchisi said:


> From speaking with alot of people, it seems that the US shipments were extremely female heavy too. I know many people are looking for males.
> 
> Rob


No kidding, I have bought six WC pums recently and I think that they are all female. :evil:


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'll know for sure in a few weeks, but I think I'm male heavy. I can see the lines on one of my Rios, and both of my Uyamas look male too. I'm not going to make a decision though untill I see calling.


----------



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Thats funny to hear, I got four males right out of the box. Only one known female and two unknowns. I picked up another frog this week which I'm hoping is a female. I guess time will tell.

Haven't been able to see any lines on my males yet.


----------



## El_Rana (May 29, 2004)

I might need a M. yellow (not orange) R. Branco, I already have orange!! Please keep me posted guys, if you have one extra!!


----------

