# misting flys



## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

Has anyone tried lightly misting flies before dusting them with supplements? Anyone think this would be beneficial to the frogs getting more supplements in the long run?


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

It's not necessary,it would probably cake up on the flys and possibly suffocate them.You get plenty of supplements on them by dusting with every feeding.

Lou


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

I just tried it and it is stupid. All the flies remained stuck to the bottom of the cup so I through my fly duster cup in the garbage.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

What'sAGoonToAGoblin? said:


> I just tried it and it is stupid. All the flies remained stuck to the bottom of the cup so I through my fly duster cup in the garbage.


Haha i felt the same when I did something similar. I rinsed out my duster cup a while back and didn't really dry it. well the supplements and flys were added, shaken up, and low and behold the water dropplets mixed with the supplements and clumped up and stuck to the walls of the cup. The flies stuck to the walls as well. Disaster.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Here's how you do it, as it takes practice to mist them in the cup after they're dusted (which could be done with a fogger, but still troublesome)---

Dust the flies well, put them in the tank, then spritz them finely with a hand sprayer for a second. Bada bing. The vitamins seem to stay on them for at least an hour after that, if not more.


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

earthfrog said:


> Here's how you do it, as it takes practice to mist them in the cup after they're dusted (which could be done with a fogger, but still troublesome)---
> 
> Dust the flies well, put them in the tank, then spritz them finely with a hand sprayer for a second. Bada bing. The vitamins seem to stay on them for at least an hour after that, if not more.


I've misted the tank shortly after feeding. It seemed to wash some of the supplements off the flies. It may assist in making the powder stick to them longer. I may try that myself and see if it does indeed make the supplements adhere to the flys longer.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> Here's how you do it, as it takes practice to mist them in the cup after they're dusted (which could be done with a fogger, but still troublesome)---
> 
> Dust the flies well, put them in the tank, then spritz them finely with a hand sprayer for a second. Bada bing. The vitamins seem to stay on them for at least an hour after that, if not more.


There is a real concern with oversupplementing with fruit flies as the supplements are manufacutured with crickets in mind and there was one unpublished study (referenced in the Nutrition chapter in Mader's text (Reptile Medicine and Surgery) that indicates that fruit flies actually have the potential to retain enough supplements that over supplementing is a risk. In addition, (I think in the same source), supplement retention runs as long as 12 hours (and I have seen crickets at least still dusted 24 hours later when ultrafine powders are used). 

wetting the flies in a attempt to increase supplement retention time is not needed. 

Ed


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

varanoid said:


> I've misted the tank shortly after feeding. It seemed to wash some of the supplements off the flies. It may assist in making the powder stick to them longer. I may try that myself and see if it does indeed make the supplements adhere to the flys longer.


Yeah, if it's more than one or two quick spritzes done high above the flies it will not work right---needs to be at least a foot above and aimed across them, not down at them.


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## Mworks (Mar 23, 2008)

I have checked fruit flies under the microscope 12 hours after dusting to see what if any 'dust' was left on the bodies. Even after 12 hours there is obvious signs of the vit supplement still there in fact some still had small amounts 18 hours later.

Regards
Marcus


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## varanoid (Jan 21, 2011)

earthfrog said:


> Yeah, if it's more than one or two quick spritzes done high above the flies it will not work right---needs to be at least a foot above and aimed across them, not down at them.


thanks for the tip



Mworks said:


> I have checked fruit flies under the microscope 12 hours after dusting to see what if any 'dust' was left on the bodies. Even after 12 hours there is obvious signs of the vit supplement still there in fact some still had small amounts 18 hours later.
> 
> Regards
> Marcus


Good to know. Clever idea as well thanks for sharing.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> There is a real concern with oversupplementing with fruit flies as the supplements are manufacutured with crickets in mind and there was one unpublished study (referenced in the Nutrition chapter in Mader's text (Reptile Medicine and Surgery) that indicates that fruit flies actually have the potential to retain enough supplements that over supplementing is a risk. In addition, (I think in the same source), supplement retention runs as long as 12 hours (and I have seen crickets at least still dusted 24 hours later when ultrafine powders are used).
> 
> wetting the flies in a attempt to increase supplement retention time is not needed.
> 
> Ed


Is there info in there that helps you determine how much vitamin powder you would use on the flies per feeding? I 'lightly coat' mine, and primarily sprayed them so that the dust would not so easily get on plant leaves and promote algae growth on valued rarer plants. 
Does that info suggest that wetting the flies would prolong the supplement retention time, or that it is simply unnecessary?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

earthfrog said:


> Is there info in there that helps you determine how much vitamin powder you would use on the flies per feeding? I 'lightly coat' mine, and primarily sprayed them so that the dust would not so easily get on plant leaves and promote algae growth on valued rarer plants.
> Does that info suggest that wetting the flies would prolong the supplement retention time, or that it is simply unnecessary?


Actually it doesn't say anything about wetting the flies.. but given that flies tend to retain at least some level of supplements for 12 hours, wetting the flies is unneccessary as the problem with oversupplementing is because the ratio of the size of the fly to the amount of supplements retained combined with the fact that frogs are programmed to eat as much as possible during times of abundence causes the risk of oversupplementation. This even an issue with some of the other small feeders like pinhead crickets. 


Ed


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

So, even though the flies immediatley begin cleaning themselves after being dusted, there is presumably enough powder still on them 12 hours later to benefit the frogs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tim13 said:


> So, even though the flies immediatley begin cleaning themselves after being dusted, there is presumably enough powder still on them 12 hours later to benefit the frogs?


Yes. 
In addition to supplying vitamins, the real reason we dust the flies is to correct thier calcum to phosphorus ratio. Virtually all invertebrates that the frogs may feed on have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio.. This results in insufficient calcium uptake when this is combined with sufficient vitamin D3, and prevents one of the forms of "MBD". 

Ed


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## What'sAGoonToAGoblin? (Sep 4, 2010)

tim13 said:


> So, even though the flies immediatley begin cleaning themselves after being dusted, there is presumably enough powder still on them 12 hours later to benefit the frogs?


Yes. Ever notice how flies and crickets dusted with calcium/vitamins etc. tend to die a few hours or a day later? In many instances the insects die because their spiracles are coated/blocked with calcium/vitamin dust and they die due to a lack of oxygen (personal observation under the stereomicroscope).


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> Yes.
> In addition to supplying vitamins, the real reason we dust the flies is to correct thier calcum to phosphorus ratio. Virtually all invertebrates that the frogs may feed on have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio.. This results in insufficient calcium uptake when this is combined with sufficient vitamin D3, and prevents one of the forms of "MBD".
> 
> Ed


What are the frogs eating in the wild that has the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Actually it doesn't say anything about wetting the flies.. but given that flies tend to retain at least some level of supplements for 12 hours, wetting the flies is unneccessary as the problem with oversupplementing is because the ratio of the size of the fly to the amount of supplements retained combined with the fact that frogs are programmed to eat as much as possible during times of abundence causes the risk of oversupplementation. This even an issue with some of the other small feeders like pinhead crickets.
> 
> 
> Ed


Perhaps we presume that wetting the flies results in the fly retaining supplements longer...maybe all that results is the fly removing the powder in larger globules instead of small specks. I've not actually done/seen anything that says wetting the flies keeps supps on them longer, but misting them does make them more active just after dusting (and thus attractive to predators), when otherwise they would be stationary and busy themselves with cleaning. This factor alone may result in more of them eaten, which might increase the amount of supplements the frogs consume.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

What'sAGoonToAGoblin? said:


> I just tried it and it is stupid. All the flies remained stuck to the bottom of the cup so I through my fly duster cup in the garbage.


ever hear of cleaning?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> What are the frogs eating in the wild that has the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio?


Soil dwelling invertebrates who have soil particles stuck to them or ingested by them, as well as dirt accidentally ingested. There is also evidence that calcium it taken up through the skin from the enviroment.. 

Ed


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

So, by dusting we are basically just mimicking dirt sticking to the insects the frogs eat?


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> Soil dwelling invertebrates who have soil particles stuck to them or ingested by them, as well as dirt accidentally ingested. There is also evidence that calcium it taken up through the skin from the enviroment..
> 
> Ed


Can we assume that the invertebrates in the wild have a comparable Ca ratio as our standard feeder insects?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Can we assume that the invertebrates in the wild have a comparable Ca ratio as our standard feeder insects?


In general yes.. some like isopods have more calcium but the ratios tend to still be off. 

One of the differences is that in the wild, substrates tend to not be calcium poor. 

Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Then would it be possible 'in theory' to eliminate the need for calcium supplementation if the proper calcium enriched substrate were provided?

Essentially supplementing the environment with calcium rather then the feeder insects themselves...

I guess the real question would be which is easier to control?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

JL-Exotics said:


> Then would it be possible 'in theory' to eliminate the need for calcium supplementation if the proper calcium enriched substrate were provided?
> 
> Essentially supplementing the environment with calcium rather then the feeder insects themselves...
> 
> I guess the real question would be which is easier to control?


In theory, to do that you would have to combine that calcium enriched substrate, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/63732-clay-substrate-how.html , with a UVB bulb so they could also get vitamin D. Vitamin D is necessary for the proper absorption of calcium.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Then would it be possible 'in theory' to eliminate the need for calcium supplementation if the proper calcium enriched substrate were provided?
> 
> Essentially supplementing the environment with calcium rather then the feeder insects themselves...
> 
> I guess the real question would be which is easier to control?


You would still need to provide D3... Mark Budde set up a test enclosure to see how sustainable a long term tank would be.. It was a thread here somewhere 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/25846-self-sustaining-terrariums-depth.html 

Ed


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

I've read that a UVB bulb is not ideal for amphibians. So, would it be better to have a low output UVB bulb with a clay calcium rich substrate?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

tim13 said:


> I've read that a UVB bulb is not ideal for amphibians. So, would it be better to have a low output UVB bulb with a clay calcium rich substrate?


A UVB bulb is not necessary for Darts because we use a complete supplement. If we are talking about dropping the supplements in favor of enriching the environment, the rules change. I am NOT knowledgeable enough to tell you UVB wattages / sizes.
While I am in complete support of improving substrates in favor of calcium enriched clay substrates, please remember that the bugs we feed are limited in variety and were not all raised on perfect foods. I for one, will still be supplementing.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> A UVB bulb is not necessary for Darts because we use a complete supplement. If we are talking about dropping the supplements in favor of enriching the environment, the rules change. I am NOT knowledgeable enough to tell you UVB wattages / sizes.
> While I am in complete support of improving substrates in favor of calcium enriched clay substrates, please remember that the bugs we feed are limited in variety and were not all raised on perfect foods. I for one, will still be supplementing.


Doug has it right.. If you wish to use a UVB bulb, it isn't so much about the size as the ability for the frog to get away from the UVB as they choose. 
Even if we fed the insects a diet optimized for them, there is still a huge variation in the ability to achieve a proper level of vitamins. 

Ed


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