# So many species... can't decide first frog



## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

I know it seems like I've posted a lot lately so sorry if its too much haha. All the info I've gotten has been really helpful in decision-making and preparedness so far.

Ive been reading a TON everywhere all over this forum in search of my perfect first frog, including the "Popular and Helpful beginner discussion threads". I've also gone through and looked at practically every species that is available for sale, then made a list of candidates based on color and patterns I liked best. I ran searches through this forum for every one of those species and then ruled out the ones that I feel weren't very good fits either based on difficultly or shyness. I finally have a top 5, but I am pretty stuck at this point, so Im hoping to get some final input or catch any red flags on why any of these may not be good first frogs. I am going to get the Insitu Amazonia, which is 22.5X17.5X24. Plants, hardscape, and background will be tailored to whatever suits the selected species best. As a side note, I see Leucs come up a LOT for first dart frogs, but I am not the biggest fan of their color pattern which is why they arent on this list... but they are in the back of my head to keep in mind.

Main things I am looking for in order of importance:

Visibility. I won't have to spend forever looking for them in the tank. Ill also be able to watch them eat.
Bold. They wont always feel the need to hide and arent afraid to sit out in the open.
Active. They wont just hang out in the same spot all day.
Social. I want to get at least 2 or 3, so it'd be sweet if they had unique social interactions. For the ones that cant be kept in groups Ill start with 3 or 4 and then sell a few once a pair has been established. I slightly favor ones that can be kept in groups because then I wont have to worry about fighting and removing/selling some as time passes.


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## Shazace (Jul 19, 2020)

BlueJohn said:


> As a side note, I see Leucs come up a LOT for first dart frogs, but I am not the biggest fan of their color pattern which is why they arent on this list... but they are in the back of my head to keep in mind.


All of them? There's standard, fine spot, banded, and blue foot. I have standard leucs.
Visibility: I see mine all the time and they have plenty of hiding spots. They respond quickly to feeding time.
Bold: They tend to hang out in the open pretty often but I contribute that to tank design. 
Active: Out of all my frogs, they are the most active (I have tincs, ranitomeya, and epipedobates). I built a 36x18x18 just for my trio with lots of branches to climb and they use every single branch. 
Social: I've never seen any aggression in my group.

I really love leucs. Tincs are great too. Mine act a bit like dogs now that they're older. They come up to the front whenever I open the doors to check if I have flies. If I do, they'll try to jump into the cup. My leucs don't do that, but both dendrobates come to the front to look out their tank and watch me every now and then. 

My second choice would be either tinc. Although, I don't know if I would put them in an insitu amazonia. 


BlueJohn said:


> I slightly favor ones that can be kept in groups because then I wont have to worry about fighting and removing/selling some as time passes.


IMO, that would leave ranitomeya variabilis as the best choice. I don't keep galacts or imitators so I can't speak on those two. I don't see thumbnails being recommended much for beginners but I think it's due to their size and speed. Since you're doing plenty of research first, I think you'll be fine. They do check all 4 points. 

It's tough picking a first frog. I picked epipedobates anthonyi 'santa isabel' as my first.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Dendrobates auratus panama special were my first frogs (panama special is the same as birkahn or highland bronze). I'm still pretty happy with them as a first pick. I lost my female in the first year due to illness and only found a new female last year, but they are back to breeding nowand the group is doing splendidly. Not that I want to make your choice more difficult, but here are my thoughts on your criteria with my first frogs:


Visibility. although many people will say that auratus hides and is not very visible. I see all 7 every day throughout most of the day. I believe this is mainly due to morph, tank setup and people not having enough patience to allow the frogs to settle in for at least 3-6 months before deciding that they are an "invisible" species.
Bold. My daughter watches them very often and taps the glass, the frogs don't care and stare back at her. They also wait for me to bring food and half of them don't even jump away when I pour in their flies.
Active. depends on how much they've eaten in the last day. They are much more active and hunting around if they have not been fed for a day or two. But they are always doing something and hopping around.
Social. I have a group of 7, which is a 6.1 group. Although there is some wrestling happening, all frogs are plump and healthy. The "alpha" rank of breeding changes between 3 frogs regularly and they do not seem too bothered by this. They will occasionally eat eggs from each other if I leave them in the tank. With any social frog, they will fight once every now and then to establish who is boss. As long as the animals all appear in good health this usually is not an issue, but even in the most "social" of dart frogs you have to consider the possibility that you might have to separate individuals.
Personally I would go for azureus if I were you. It's easily one of the most iconic of the dart frogs, and it is one of the easiest and boldest if kept in a properly prepared tank. The only downside from your list of criteria is that they are definitely not social.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Shazace said:


> All of them? There's standard, fine spot, banded, and blue foot. I have standard leucs.


Of all the variations I like fine spot the most, but its still not my absolute favorite. But when I showed the leucs to my wife (who also actually wants dart frogs and isn't just going along for the ride) she just flat said no so there's that. It'd take really extra convicing.



Shazace said:


> Visibility: I see mine all the time and they have plenty of hiding spots. They respond quickly to feeding time.
> Bold: They tend to hang out in the open pretty often but I contribute that to tank design.
> Active: Out of all my frogs, they are the most active (I have tincs, ranitomeya, and epipedobates). I built a 36x18x18 just for my trio with lots of branches to climb and they use every single branch.
> Social: I've never seen any aggression in my group.


-sigh- yes they check every box perfectly. I just wish I liked the pattern more than I do.



Shazace said:


> I really love leucs. Tincs are great too. Mine act a bit like dogs now that they're older. They come up to the front whenever I open the doors to check if I have flies. If I do, they'll try to jump into the cup. My leucs don't do that, but both dendrobates come to the front to look out their tank and watch me every now and then.


😂 Sounds awesome. +1 for the tincs for sure.



Shazace said:


> My second choice would be either tinc. Although, I don't know if I would put them in an insitu amazonia.


Is it the size of the viv or something else?



Shazace said:


> IMO, that would leave ranitomeya variabilis as the best choice. I don't keep galacts or imitators so I can't speak on those two. I don't see thumbnails being recommended much for beginners but I think it's due to their size and speed. Since you're doing plenty of research first, I think you'll be fine. They do check all 4 points.


I'd be 100% lying if I said I am nervous about them jumping out of the tank during feeding or cleaning and trying to catch them. Does that actually happen or is it just something to be aware of that _might_ happen?



Shazace said:


> It's tough picking a first frog.


Understatement of the year. Especially after doing research on them. Thanks for your input!


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Johanovich said:


> Although there is some wrestling happening, all frogs are plump and healthy. The "alpha" rank of breeding changes between 3 frogs regularly and they do not seem too bothered by this.


How do you tell if the wrestling is harmless or if they need to be separated? The only wrestling I've seen in on "Life in Color" on Netflix when those 2 pumilios crossed paths.



Johanovich said:


> Personally I would go for azureus if I were you. It's easily one of the most iconic of the dart frogs, and it is one of the easiest and boldest if kept in a properly prepared tank. The only downside from your list of criteria is that they are definitely not social.


I don't mind only having 2 in the viv by the time they are mature, I just don't know how to really identify which ones will have to be booted out. Plus I'd have to sell them fast since I have no spare tank and would probably just have to keep them in a Rubbermaid container or something.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

local hobbyist. I would easily give a 25-40% discount on most stuff if someone local came and got it. Shipping is both $$ and potentially hazardous.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

BlueJohn said:


> I know it seems like I've posted a lot lately so sorry if its too much haha. All the info I've gotten has been really helpful in decision-making and preparedness so far.
> 
> Main things I am looking for in order of importance:
> 
> ...


1) I think it’s awesome that you’re doing your research and asking these questions before jumping into things.
2) Also just going to throw it out there, because I love my little guys and think they’ve been an awesome behinner species…e. Anthonyi! They check mark all those boxes, are visible, bold, active, great in groups…but also very hardy and adorable! They may breed a lot if you have a mixed sex group and are a bit loud, are the only potential downsides. Anyway, worth considering, I think.


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## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

BlueJohn said:


> Of all the variations I like fine spot the most, but its still not my absolute favorite. But when I showed the leucs to my wife (who also actually wants dart frogs and isn't just going along for the ride) she just flat said no so there's that. It'd take really extra convicing.


lol, yes, I went through similar with my partner. He was like flat out no to any yellow frogs (but too bad when we get golden mantellas someday!) and expressed preference for blue ones…but we got these red frogs instead.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Lovelyk said:


> 1) I think it’s awesome that you’re doing your research and asking these questions before jumping into things.


Yeah I figure it’s better to say “what kind of viv should I build for the frog I want” rather than “what frog can I put in this viv I already made”



Lovelyk said:


> Also just going to throw it out there, because I love my little guys and think they’ve been an awesome behinner species…e. Anthonyi! They check mark all those boxes, are visible, bold, active, great in groups…but also very hardy and adorable! They may breed a lot if you have a mixed sex group and are a bit loud, are the only potential downsides. Anyway, worth considering, I think.
> View attachment 302158


Definitely some cool little guys! I think the loud call may start to bother my wife though if it gets too frequent 😂 also since we won’t be raising tadpoles I’ll either have to freeze eggs or find another hobbyist or close by store that would buy the tadpoles



Lovelyk said:


> lol, yes, I went through similar with my partner. He was like flat out no to any yellow frogs (but too bad when we get golden mantellas someday!) and expressed preference for blue ones…but we got these red frogs instead.


It’s not even that they are yellow, haha. We were actually planning on a yellow terrib until I really looked into their needs as far as tank size goes. I think it’s just the black and white stripes that look too much like a bumble bee.


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## mikestra (Oct 16, 2008)

Azureus. They were my first frogs 15 years ago and despite focusing more on obligate eggfeeders with my return to the hobby last year, Azureus have always been my favorite. There is just something about a completely blue frog that (at least to me) is incredibly captivating. Not to mention, they exhibit a nice bold, almost interactive personality. I missed keeping them so badly I just picked up some froglets, despite telling myself I'm not a fan of tincs. (For no particular reason, they're just not my favorite) Azureus excluded from this of course. Ultimately, the decision is yours and I'm confident your preparation and research will set you up for a very rewarding experience in the hobby. 

PS. Don't be so sure that tad raising isn't for you. I find it too be one of the most fascinating parts of the hobby along with the parental behaviors specific to each species. I'd be willing to bet you'll have a hard suppressing your excitement if/when you find some eggs. Best of luck, and welcome to the hobby.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

BlueJohn said:


> Definitely some cool little guys! I think the loud call may start to bother my wife though if it gets too frequent 😂 also since we won’t be raising tadpoles I’ll either have to freeze eggs or find another hobbyist or close by store that would buy the tadpoles


I sure hope local shops aren't reselling tadpoles. 

Anyway, since you're shopping in part by appearance, and think you're comfortable with variabilis, you might consider a pair of _R. imitator_ -- some locales mimic variabilis, and imitators raise their own tads -- so you pull froglets once they're half to almost fully grown or so. An Amazonia is an ideal viv for imitators.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

mikestra said:


> Not to mention, they exhibit a nice bold, almost interactive personality.


Yeah that interactive personality definitely draws me to them, as well as being totally blue. I mean how often do you see a blue animal that isn’t in a body of water?



mikestra said:


> PS. Don't be so sure that tad raising isn't for you. I find it too be one of the most fascinating parts of the hobby along with the parental behaviors specific to each species. I'd be willing to bet you'll have a hard suppressing your excitement if/when you find some eggs. Best of luck, and welcome to the hobby.


When I was maybe 12 or so I had a water dragon, chameleon, ball python, green anole, and 2 leopard geckos in my room. I was so surprised and excited when I saw the leopard geckos laid an egg. I was going to raise that but then my mom thought their red night time heat lamp bothered me so she covered it with a blanket to block the light… ended up cooking the geckos and the egg. So it’d be cool to get one more chance 😂 thing is though I don’t have the space or budget to get another viv every time the tadpoles morph and then reach maturity. In a few years when I finish my basement I’ll have room for one more viv and my wife and I agreed to get one more species. Maybe if that species is group friendly I can raise those eggs and then once they are little froglets put them back in the same viv as their parents? Unless children shouldn’t be housed with their parents or even kept together if incest is a problem?


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I sure hope local shops aren't reselling tadpoles.


I was more meaning they’d raise the tadpoles into frogs and then sell the frogs



Socratic Monologue said:


> Anyway, since you're shopping in part by appearance, and think you're comfortable with variabilis, you might consider a pair of _R. imitator_ -- some locales mimic variabilis, and imitators raise their own tads -- so you pull froglets once they're half to almost fully grown or so. An Amazonia is an ideal viv for imitators.


Yeah imitators are on this list as well. But even if they raise their own tads I don’t have room to put them anywhere once they have to be taken out. So I don’t know. I’m curious though why an Amazonia isn’t “ideal” for tincs? The care sheet for tincs says “A sexed pair could be housed in an enclosure with a minimum 18" x 18" footprint, and like most dart frogs, are avid climbers and will use all the height provided.” The Amazonia is 22x18x24 so it exceeds the minimum footprint for a pair and gives them extra height compared to the typically recommended 18x18x18. In fact probably 8” of extra height considering the 2-3 inches of drainage layer that the Amazonia doesn’t require. Am I missing something?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

BlueJohn said:


> I’m curious though why an Amazonia isn’t “ideal” for tincs?


I don't see where that was mentioned in this thread, but maybe I missed it.

Anyway, these two concepts are very different:



BlueJohn said:


> “ideal”





BlueJohn said:


> minimum


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Has anyone mentioned Costa Rican auratus?

Extremely bold, especially once they're sexually mature. Larger than other auratus. They're gorgeous and you'll see them all the time. Also, no where as aggressive as tincs or some ranitomeya. I never had any aggression with any of my groups. 

I really can't recommend auratus enough when it comes to new keepers.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

@Socratic Monologue I guess I just read between the lines



Shazace said:


> My second choice would be either tinc. Although, I don't know if I would put them in an insitu amazonia.


Why not put tincs in the amzonia?



Socratic Monologue said:


> An Amazonia is an ideal viv for imitators.


Why not ideal for tincs?

When I mentioned minimum I was quoting the care sheet. If the care sheet recommends a minimum 18x18x18, and I provide a 22.5x17x24, that's 20% more floor space, 53% more height, and 80% more total volume if the negative space is properly designed. I mean "ideal" is their natural environment where even 500 gallons isnt even close, so where do you draw the line between "minimum" and "ideal"? And running a search of tinc tank sizes and ignoring all the 10 gallon BS I found 18x18x18 or 24x18x18 to be the most common recommended sizes, and the amazonia is larger than both of those. Sorry if this comes across as defensive I really don't mean it to be but Im just slightly taken back by the fact that I am providing a larger tank than what is recommended by the care sheet (and the rest of the internet) and yet it still doesn't seem to be enough.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> @Socratic Monologue
> Sorry if this comes across as defensive I really don't mean it to be but Im just slightly taken back by the fact that I am providing a larger tank than what is recommended by the care sheet (and the rest of the internet) and yet it still doesn't seem to be enough.


Our hobby is constantly evolving. The majority opinion 5 years ago was that an 18x18x18 was big enough for most frogs. Today we look at these tanks as too small for most frogs. Personally I don't find 18" of height to be sufficient for any of our frogs.

So while the caresheet says 18" cube, most of us now believe species like tincs need more floor space than that. I recommend 36" long for any terrestrial frog. And really for any frog IMO. 

Most of those caresheets are over 5 years old so that's the discrepancy you're seeing.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

And I'm sorry if anything I say comes off other than helpful and supportive -- sincerely. 



kyle1745 said:


> Being larger, active frogs, Tincs require a good amount of floor space. A sexed pair could be housed in an enclosure with a minimum 18" x 18" footprint, and like most dart frogs, are avid climbers and will use all the height provided, taking advantage of all climbable surfaces such as large sturdy leaves, ledges and branches.


Here's the caresheet bit, I didn't see any height measurement except "all the height provided" which means taller is better. Note that care sheet, while some updating was done to eliminate the most egregious claims, is fifteen years old. We're working on making new care sheets, but it has been slow going -- it is more work than a person might think, and takes the help of many people who have many irons of their own in the fire.

Default thinking here seems to be that 24" high is the minimum for general landscaping reasons as well as microhabitat provision -- thermal, moisture, and illumination gradients are important to provide, and easier to provide in taller vivs.

There's no sharp line between 'ideal' and 'minimum' and even 'abusive', and different keepers will have different reasons for their recommendations. "Ideal" has to accommodate practicality, so I wouldn't say that an indoor hobby enclosure with a volume of 1000 cubic meters (reasonable estimate of a dart's home range) is ideal. There's a sweet spot, I think, and for a pair of imitator an Amazonia might be it (actually, an Alto might be slightly more it, but financial considerations have to play some role, too, and there's definitely a point of diminishing returns somewhere). 

Tincs, I don't quite know -- I have a pair of 'Bakhuis' (well, a trio currently, as I'm rotating frogs through to find a pair) which is a dwarf locale in a 18 x 18 x 24 and it feels close to 'minimum' to me right now, even though I took a lot of pains to maximize usable space, both in the viv generally and given the particular natural habitat of the species. I personally would be uncomfortable with a pair of a larger tinc locale in there.

I have the same situation with a pair of 'Fine Spot' leucs in an 18 x 18 x 24. It is OK, but they're the smallest locale, and socially easygoing, but I don't think a smaller viv, or a much larger locale, or a trio would be a better situation in that viv.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

To piggy back on what @Socratic Monologue said. I had a pair of azureus in an 18x18x24" when I first got into the hobby. Within 6 months I had moved them to a 40 gallon breeder because it became obvious it wasn't enough space for them.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

I don't keep hardly any of t


JasonE said:


> To piggy back on what @Socratic Monologue said. I had a pair of azureus in an 18x18x24" when I first got into the hobby. Within 6 months I had moved them to a 40 gallon breeder because it became obvious it wasn't enough space for them.


I've done the same with a group of Adelphobates galactonatus, moved them from an 18x18x24" to 39x19x19" terrarium since they clearly wanted more space to use.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Okay gotcha. If I did go with the imitators or variabilis how many do you think would be appropriate for this size? I have read that both of these do great in groups, so since they are so small it'd be nice to have a good size group so at least a few will always be active. 

I also really like the look of the fantastica and pumilio but those seem to meet the bullet points I am looking for (namely very hard to spot in a tank or extremely hard to care for).


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BlueJohn said:


> Okay gotcha. If I did go with the imitators or variabilis how many do you think would be appropriate for this size? I have read that both of these do great in groups, so since they are so small it'd be nice to have a good size group so at least a few will always be active.
> 
> I also really like the look of the fantastica and pumilio but those seem to meet the bullet points I am looking for (namely very hard to spot in a tank or extremely hard to care for).


Imitators are not reputed to do well in groups , tend to do best in pairs.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

No more than a pair of imitators, and I wouldn't put more than 4 variabilis in an Amazonia.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I definitely recommend variablis. I've got a group and they're just so bold for a ranitomeya. My males don't care what I do. Clip plants, feed, water an orchid, whatever. They aren't moving. They're not going to stop calling or depositing tads. Females are a little more skittish but still bolder than any other female thumb I've had. 

And no kind of aggression (if any at all) that forces you to break up a group as long as your viv is set up right.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I definitely recommend variablis. I've got a group and they're just so bold for a ranitomeya. My males don't care what I do. Clip plants, feed, water an orchid, whatever. They aren't moving. They're not going to stop calling or depositing tads. Females are a little more skittish but still bolder than any other female thumb I've had.
> 
> And no kind of aggression (if any at all) that forces you to break up a group as long as your viv is set up right.


Well if the Amazonia is too small for tincs then Variabilis is probably my best choice it sounds like.

Amazonia, charcoal drainage, mistking and nozzles, plumbing hose and reservoir, silicone, foam, background mix, cork flat ledges, moss slurry, ABG, leaf litter, plants, hardscape, 3 Variabilis, springtails, FF, and calcium plus all add up to $1300  Let’s hope for a big Christmas bonus this year.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> Well if the Amazonia is too small for tincs then Variabilis is probably my best choice it sounds like.
> 
> Amazonia, charcoal drainage, mistking and nozzles, plumbing hose and reservoir, silicone, foam, background mix, cork flat ledges, moss slurry, ABG, leaf litter, plants, hardscape, 3 Variabilis, springtails, FF, and calcium plus all add up to $1300  Let’s hope for a big Christmas bonus this year.


Oh it's going to be much more than that I'm sure. There's so many things you have to buy as a new keeper. Also a lot of stuff you buy to build is going to be bought in bulk. There's a lot of people on this forum that could probably assemble an entire vivarium with just parts and leftovers sitting in a closet. So you're going to have too much of a bunch of stuff. And with this being your first build, there's going to be a lot of waste. 

Hardscaping can be much more expensive than you think. I think with cork, ghostwood, great stuff, and silicone I easily spent $500. Probably closer to $600. That was for a 36x36" so maybe cut off $100 or so.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

JasonE said:


> Oh it's going to be much more than that I'm sure. There's so many things you have to buy as a new keeper. Also a lot of stuff you buy to build is going to be bought in bulk. There's a lot of people on this forum that could probably assemble an entire vivarium with just parts and leftovers sitting in a closet. So you're going to have too much of a bunch of stuff. And with this being your first build, there's going to be a lot of waste.
> 
> Hardscaping can be much more expensive than you think. I think with cork, ghostwood, great stuff, and silicone I easily spent $500. Probably closer to $600. That was for a 36x36" so maybe cut off $100 or so.


So far everything is from NEHERP, I mean they are out of stock for ghostwood branches and Malaysian driftwood and a few other things, but for the most part I think I have most of it covered? But I’ll keep that in mind that it may not be enough. I’m planning a background and similar to this (not a foam background, but just silicone against the glass, then cork flats creating lots of ledges, then background mix and small cork flats with moss slurry to cover the silicone, I’ll add squiggling lines of foam for a “root” look but nothing like the entire back covered in foam. So far that’s looked like the best way to fill negative space. Do you think that would be good for tincs too or are they more terrestrial and wouldn’t care about ledges?

Also, you’ve got some pumilios right? Besides territorial issues and breeding, are they really that much more difficult? I just feel like the red pumilio may stand out more than green variabilis against green plants. And it looks like there is one in stock here. So maybe I could get a known pair or one single one and then later introduce the opposite sex into the viv?


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BlueJohn said:


> So far everything is from NEHERP, I mean they are out of stock for ghostwood branches and Malaysian driftwood and a few other things, but for the most part I think I have most of it covered? But I’ll keep that in mind that it may not be enough. I’m planning a background and similar to this (not a foam background, but just silicone against the glass, then cork flats creating lots of ledges, then background mix and small cork flats with moss slurry to cover the silicone, I’ll add squiggling lines of foam for a “root” look but nothing like the entire back covered in foam. So far that’s looked like the best way to fill negative space. Do you think that would be good for tincs too or are they more terrestrial and wouldn’t care about ledges?
> 
> Also, you’ve got some pumilios right? Besides territorial issues and breeding, are they really that much more difficult? I just feel like the red pumilio may stand out more than green variabilis against green plants. And it looks like there is one in stock here. So maybe I could get a known pair or one single one and then later introduce the opposite sex into the viv?


I'm thrilled that my build is inspiring people. 

The total cost for the wood for that build is probably around $50 plus a tube of silicone, and 2L or so of peat moss. 

My experience (not with Tincs, I don't have any) with Ameerega and Adelphobates is that they will use every bit of space that they can. If I was building a tank for tincs I would make sure that I used cork pieces placed diagonally, ramping up, so that they can access the higher places in the tank.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> So far everything is from NEHERP, I mean they are out of stock for ghostwood branches and Malaysian driftwood and a few other things, but for the most part I think I have most of it covered? But I’ll keep that in mind that it may not be enough. I’m planning a background and similar to this (not a foam background, but just silicone against the glass, then cork flats creating lots of ledges, then background mix and small cork flats with moss slurry to cover the silicone, I’ll add squiggling lines of foam for a “root” look but nothing like the entire back covered in foam. So far that’s looked like the best way to fill negative space. Do you think that would be good for tincs too or are they more terrestrial and wouldn’t care about ledges?
> 
> Also, you’ve got some pumilios right? Besides territorial issues and breeding, are they really that much more difficult? I just feel like the red pumilio may stand out more than green variabilis against green plants. And it looks like there is one in stock here. So maybe I could get a known pair or one single one and then later introduce the opposite sex into the viv?


Not doing a full foam background will save you about $30.

Yes pumilio are that much more difficult and it's for the two reasons you mentioned. They can't be overlooked. Go check out videos of male pumilio fighting. Pumilio froglets are smaller than other froglets and have to be grown in the cage. Which means your enclosure has to have a constant supply of springtails. Which means you need to keep lots of springtails on hand. Those froglets can't take dusted melos for 2-6 weeks, or longer depending on the species. Some keepers use uvb to aid with froglets. This brings in so much more difficulty. You need enough uvb for the froglets but you can't flood the cage with it or you'll kill your frogs. So you're going to need a light meter and to know what you're doing.

No beginner should have an obligate for a first frog. We have lost many locales of pumilio in this hobby, partially because inexperienced keepers bought them and failed. Either by not getting them to breed or not having the required experience to deal with imported frogs and the health problems that can arise.

Your first frogs need to be captive bred. And a captive bred pumilio pair will cost you $400+. Learn first. Pumilio are a reward for getting to that level of a keeper.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

It isn't that tincs are terrestrial (no dart is) but that when they climb, they walk/hop up rather than climb like spiderman. They're kind of harder to make usable space for, I think. 

Thumbnails can and do climb pretty much anything, so you can just toss a jumble of medium-thick sticks in there and call it good, and they climb glass just fine so backgrounds aren't as necessary. My pair of Insitus set up for thumbs didn't cost more than about $50 each for a couple nice ghostwood branches and a cork round.

You can easily hold off on the MistKing. If you have less than five or so vivs, and you don't leave the frogs alone for more than about five days hand misting is a superior husbandry technique. Easier to control, keeps the keeper much more in touch with the viv.

You can save money on moss slurry too. Dart frogs don't really like moss, and if you don't let them watch YouTube they'll never even know it exists.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Agreed on the misting system. Hand misting is so much better for new keepers. Not investing in one when I started was probably the greatest learning experience I didn't know I needed.

Also, I don't see anything in your list for mite prevention. If you aren't aware, your cultures need to be kept on either mite paper or a surface treated with provent-a-mite spray.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I'm thrilled that my build is inspiring people.


Well it is a sweet build and great use of negative space.



fishingguy12345 said:


> The total cost for the wood for that build is probably around $50 plus a tube of silicone, and 2L or so of peat moss.


Only $50? Am I getting way too much wood or something? I am up to $114 for the background even after getting rid of the moss slurry.











JasonE said:


> No beginner should have an obligate for a first frog. We have lost many locales of pumilio in this hobby, partially because inexperienced keepers bought them and failed.


Noted. No pumilios until later then.



Socratic Monologue said:


> You can easily hold off on the MistKing. If you have less than five or so vivs, and you don't leave the frogs alone for more than about five days hand misting is a superior husbandry technique. Easier to control, keeps the keeper much more in touch with the viv.
> 
> You can save money on moss slurry too. Dart frogs don't really like moss, and if you don't let them watch YouTube they'll never even know it exists.





JasonE said:


> Agreed on the misting system. Hand misting is so much better for new keepers. Not investing in one when I started was probably the greatest learning experience I didn't know I needed.


Mistking gone then. That saves a good chunk of change. I mainly was thinking of that because sometimes I have to leave for work/school around 7 and dont get back until 6, so it'd be up to my wife to mist them in the morning then I could mist and feed at night. Do you think after like a year or so it'd be long enough to get a mistking?



JasonE said:


> Also, I don't see anything in your list for mite prevention. If you aren't aware, your cultures need to be kept on either mite paper or a surface treated with provent-a-mite spray.


I thought the cultures and culture kits from Josh's came with mite prevention stuff? Ill look into it more.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

BlueJohn said:


> Also, you’ve got some pumilios right? Besides territorial issues and breeding, are they really that much more difficult? I just feel like the red pumilio may stand out more than green variabilis against green plants. And it looks like there is one in stock here. So maybe I could get a known pair or one single one and then later introduce the opposite sex into the viv?


If you get red or dark colored broms (like neoregelia domino for example), variabilis will stand out just as much. They will also stand out more against a dark background, which is another reason to leave out the moss slurry.



JasonE said:


> Also, I don't see anything in your list for mite prevention. If you aren't aware, your cultures need to be kept on either mite paper or a surface treated with provent-a-mite spray.


I've never used either and I don't have any mite problems. Drosophila hydei blatantly does not care about mites at all, and for melanogaster I use lids with a nylon cloth that prevents mites from entering. I use the self-raising flour plus sieve method to prevent mite transmission.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BlueJohn said:


> Only $50? Am I getting way too much wood or something? I am up to $114 for the background even after getting rid of the moss slurry.


Yes, that's my best guess at the cost of my background.

I used 2 cork rounds that I broke in half (and used both halves) and a third one where I broke it in half and only used one of the halves. On top of this I used the Vining sticks and they were $6 total. Add in a tube of silicone and the total would be roughly $50. (I buy my cork bark in bulk so it's fairly economical per piece).



BlueJohn said:


> I just feel like the red pumilio may stand out more than green variabilis against green plants


My pumilio are the Punta Laurel locale which are green and yellow with black spots. They stand out easily against the plants in the tank despite being a similar color. 

You'll find that most all dart frogs "shimmer" making them easy to find in a tank if any light hits them .

Another option for a Ranitomeya group are Ranitomeya sirensis. I love my group, they are probably my second favorite tank of Frogs. Social, inquisitive, pleasant call, nice coloring (I have the Rio Pachitea yellow locale), you could do a group of 4 in a tank the size you planning. I'll leave you with a picture of one just to whet your appetite .


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Mite prevention, IME and in that of many follks here, is a must (not a, uh, _might_). Racking one's brains trying to figure out why FF cxs aren't doing what they're supposed to only to finally figure out that you're breeding more grain mites than FFs is frustrating and pretty easy to avoid from the get go. 

Since you seem to use a certain vendor a lot, I'll point out this: DE (diatomaceous earth, my favorite mite barrier), either by that name or some branded markup product, should not be used directly on any insect that you don't want dead. So, a moat of DE around cxs is good, DE directly on FFs is bad. Getting generic DE is often the cheapest option, and all DE is the same (use food grade, not pool grade -- very important).


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Johanovich said:


> I've never used either and I don't have any mite problems. Drosophila hydei blatantly does not care about mites at all, and for melanogaster I use lids with a nylon cloth that prevents mites from entering. I use the self-raising flour plus sieve method to prevent mite transmission.


I definitely can't endorse this. We all use fabric lids. Mites get through those. They will absolutely crash your cultures. I've lost more springtails to mites than flies, but I had an entire shelf of cultures die because I didn't use mite prevention. 

Use mite prevention.


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## BrianTL (Sep 13, 2021)

Seems like we're in the same boat. I actually just received my Amazonia, hoping to open it up tonight after work. Starting to collect material for my build while trying to research and absorb as much knowledge as possible. 

I'm having the same problem with picking frogs. I know the general consensus seems to be pick a species you want first, then optimize the build for that frog - just hard to ID the right frog first! 

I feel like I could have written the OP myself. Sticking to the OP topic though, at this point I believe my top choices are Ranitomeya - Imitator, Variabilis and Sirensis maybe being top 3. I also think the Fantasticas are a beautiful frog. I prefer the coloring/patterning on the imitator, but was hoping to keep a trio - may lean to the variabilis, esepecially if I could get away with 4.

Also looking at Leuc's and Azureus. 

I'll start my own thread here in a bit, but I read yours and like I said, felt like I could have written it myself


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Yes, that's my best guess at the cost of my background.
> 
> I used 2 cork rounds that I broke in half (and used both halves) and a third one where I broke it in half and only used one of the halves. On top of this I used the Vining sticks and they were $6 total. Add in a tube of silicone and the total would be roughly $50. (I buy my cork bark in bulk so it's fairly economical per piece).


So I take it that its better to buy one of NEHERP "bulk cork" bags and hope for the best and break pieces apart rather than go through and itemize like I did with "2 flats <8", "2 flats 8-10", "2 flats 10-13", etc?



Socratic Monologue said:


> Mite prevention, IME and in that of many follks here, is a must (not a, uh, _might_). Racking one's brains trying to figure out why FF cxs aren't doing what they're supposed to only to finally figure out that you're breeding more grain mites than FFs is frustrating and pretty easy to avoid from the get go.





JasonE said:


> I definitely can't endorse this. We all use fabric lids. Mites get through those. They will absolutely crash your cultures. I've lost more springtails to mites than flies, but I had an entire shelf of cultures die because I didn't use mite prevention.
> 
> Use mite prevention.


Good to know, Ill definitely use mite prevention. Sounds like it doesn't actually go _inside_ the culture cup but surrounds the cup not to let any in?



Socratic Monologue said:


> Since you seem to use a certain vendor a lot...


When I first googled dart frogs for sale Josh's frogs came up and what with their blog post, instructional videos, kits, etc. they seemed to be the experts so I figured I'd get everything from them. Since being on this forum though, I've decided to go with InSitu for the actual viv, NEHERP for background, plants, and wood. I feel that with NEHERP I have a better idea of what the wood will actually look like before I receive it, and with their plant kits they will pick the plants based off what species you tell them its for. I am pretty lost about where I should ACTUALLY be getting my frog from. I heard that Dendrobati was the best breeder from a post back in 2013 but the website doesn't seem to be up anymore, so I don't know what breeder to go with.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

BrianTL said:


> Seems like we're in the same boat. I actually just received my Amazonia, hoping to open it up tonight after work. Starting to collect material for my build while trying to research and absorb as much knowledge as possible.
> 
> I'm having the same problem with picking frogs. I know the general consensus seems to be pick a species you want first, then optimize the build for that frog - just hard to ID the right frog first!
> 
> ...


Glad Im not alone in the picking process haha. The Fantasticas were definitely near the top of my list until I learned that you hardly ever see them and are wicked fast that it's basically popcorn popping around the viv. Im pretty split between 3-4 variabilis or 2 azureus, the main factor being whether I feel I can create more usable space for the azureus in the viv.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BlueJohn said:


> So I take it that its better to buy one of NEHERP "bulk cork" bags and hope for the best and break pieces apart rather than go through and itemize like I did with "2 flats <8", "2 flats 8-10", "2 flats 10-13", etc?


I love having a bin of cork bark just sitting around for whatever I need it. I'm running to the end of my last 15 pound cork box and will be buying another one soon. This lets you pick and choose the exact piece (from your own box) you want for any build at a cheaper cost than buying individual pieces.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> I love having a bin of cork bark just sitting around for whatever I need it. I'm running to the end of my last 15 pound cork box and will be buying another one soon. This lets you pick and choose the exact piece (from your own box) you want for any build at a cheaper cost than buying individual pieces.


Well the 5lb wholesale cork is cheaper than the gallon bag and 6 flats I specified. Do you think a 5lb bag, 1-2 ghostwood branches, and 1 Malaysian driftwood will be enough hardscape for one viv? Or do you think that will be to much? I'll be coupling that with the 24x18x24 Plant kit.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

BlueJohn said:


> Well the 5lb wholesale cork is cheaper than the gallon bag and 6 flats I specified. Do you think a 5lb bag, 1-2 ghostwood branches, and 1 Malaysian driftwood will be enough hardscape for one viv? Or do you think that will be to much? I'll be coupling that with the 24x18x24 Plant kit.


Almost no such thing as "too much" cork , you can just keep any leftovers for the next build . 

Before you buy plants you should decide on a frog species. 

Ranitomeya will need bromeliads (or at least use them regularly) while tincs won't. You could do a vivarium using only bromeliads and a few smaller plants for Ranitomeya and they'd be as comfortable as a vivarium with a ton of terrestrial plants, in my experience..


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

fishingguy12345 said:


> Before you buy plants you should decide on a frog species.


This is the main reason I am going with NEHERP for plants. You say what species you are building for, and they will pick plants appropriate for that species.

And following the rules as best as I can while still trying to decide which breeder to buy from... where did you get your frogs from?


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I buy cork in bulk from NEherp. I buy most of my supplies from them actually. For ghostwood though I went to ebay. I was able to find the exact pieces I wanted. And I got lucky because it was from a pet store here in state. Ebay has a few vendors that sell ghostwood. You can search pet world of lawrence on there. They sell pieces by the size. There's also a guy from TX on there. He sells individual pieces with photos and measurements. He does charge a bit more though.

Re: Moss slurry. I happen to love moss growth on my backgrounds and wood. I wouldn't recommend NE herps though because of it's mostly java moss. I bought some when I did this tank and I'm ready to glove up and go scrape off every inch of that stuff. That said, I've got some awesome ferns coming in from it so not all bad.

Mite prevention: Yes. We treat the area where the cultures are kept so mites can't transfer from one culture to another. Pesticides for mites would also kill your flies and springs. 

Where to buy or who to buy from: Forget vendors and whoever was recommended in '13. It's better to buy from hobbyists who keep these species for the love of the frogs and not to make a profit. Whatever frog you decide on, we either breed them, or know people who do. When you're ready to buy just let us know and we'll make sure you get healthy frogs from a reliable source.

Plants: I hate plant packages from non-frog specific vendors. You're going to end up over paying for many things that you could get at a local nursery or even someplace like Home Depot. There are people on this site that can put together some impressive plant packages. Also, look at places like Houston Frogs and Glass Box Tropicals for plants. They have great selections and you can usually find some cool plants in your budget.


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## BrianTL (Sep 13, 2021)

BlueJohn said:


> When I first googled dart frogs for sale Josh's frogs came up and what with their blog post, instructional videos, kits, etc. they seemed to be the experts so I figured I'd get everything from them. Since being on this forum though, I've decided to go with InSitu for the actual viv, NEHERP for background, plants, and wood. I feel that with NEHERP I have a better idea of what the wood will actually look like before I receive it, and with their plant kits they will pick the plants based off what species you tell them its for. I am pretty lost about where I should ACTUALLY be getting my frog from. I heard that Dendrobati was the best breeder from a post back in 2013 but the website doesn't seem to be up anymore, so I don't know what breeder to go with.


For what its worth I had a similar experience as well. I always wanted PDFs but never really was in a position to do so, seriously started entertaining the idea about 2 years ago, started doing research and spent a lot of time on Josh's page. Got busy with life, had to pause again, but this time around - I've decided, personally, I am much more comfortable researching and buying elsewhere. 

If I end up on Ranitomeya, I'll probably try to pick up from Ruffing's. I'm sure I'll be posting here when the time comes anyway, to look at other reliable and responsible sources. I also would definitely take a look through the marketplace here but I dont have enough time/posts to peek in there yet. 



BlueJohn said:


> Glad Im not alone in the picking process haha. The Fantasticas were definitely near the top of my list until I learned that you hardly ever see them and are wicked fast that it's basically popcorn popping around the viv. Im pretty split between 3-4 variabilis or 2 azureus, the main factor being whether I feel I can create more usable space for the azureus in the viv.


Admittedly I haven't looked into the Fantasticas much at all yet, that's on my to-do list! Good to know about the visibility though, kind of changes that for me. 

Feel free to PM me if you want to compare anything! Could be helpful as we both seem to be in similar positions


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I buy cork in bulk from NEherp. I buy most of my supplies from them actually. For ghostwood though I went to ebay. I was able to find the exact pieces I wanted. And I got lucky because it was from a pet store here in state. Ebay has a few vendors that sell ghostwood. You can search pet world of lawrence on there. They sell pieces by the size. There's also a guy from TX on there. He sells individual pieces with photos and measurements. He does charge a bit more though.
> 
> Re: Moss slurry. I happen to love moss growth on my backgrounds and wood. I wouldn't recommend NE herps though because of it's mostly java moss. I bought some when I did this tank and I'm ready to glove up and go scrape off every inch of that stuff. That said, I've got some awesome ferns coming in from it so not all bad.
> 
> ...


Extremely helpful, thank you. On NEHERP its $87 for 3 terrestrials, 4 tropicals, 8 trailing, and 12x12 moss. If buying from someone on here will be cheaper and better selections then I'm all for it once I get marketplace access. And that's great to hear about the frogs. When I am ready to buy Ill definitely let you know.

Moss slurry does sound awesome for background and wood. When I am ready to buy Ill search on here for it.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> Extremely helpful, thank you. On NEHERP its $87 for 3 terrestrials, 4 tropicals, 8 trailing, and 12x12 moss. If buying from someone on here will be cheaper and better selections then I'm all for it once I get marketplace access. And that's great to hear about the frogs. When I am ready to buy Ill definitely let you know.
> 
> Moss slurry does sound awesome for background and wood. When I am ready to buy Ill search on here for it.


You can definitely get better for $87 from someone here. Typically if you tell someone the size cage and your budget, they'll come up with some great selections to fill your enclosure. There's a guy named Daniel Tall that has an amazing plant collection. I paid $40 for plants to just grow out and add variety. I'm extremely impressed with what he sent me. I can get you his contact info if you like. Also, since you were already on frogsdirect, there are several vendors on there that offer plant packages as well. Daniel might be on there too for all I know. I'm sure there are people active here who could also help you out. But as much as I like using NE herp, I would not go to them for plant packages.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

JasonE said:


> You can definitely get better for $87 from someone here. Typically if you tell someone the size cage and your budget, they'll come up with some great selections to fill your enclosure. There's a guy named Daniel Tall that has an amazing plant collection. I paid $40 for plants to just grow out and add variety. I'm extremely impressed with what he sent me. I can get you his contact info if you like. Also, since you were already on frogsdirect, there are several vendors on there that offer plant packages as well. Daniel might be on there too for all I know. I'm sure there are people active here who could also help you out. But as much as I like using NE herp, I would not go to them for plant packages.


Once I buy the viv then I'll ask you for his info, along with someone reliable to get frogs from. Once the viv arrives Ill put the background and hardscape together, then add moss slurry to the background and wood, let that grow in for a few weeks, then add plants, then let those grow in for a few more weeks, then add the frogs.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

One last thing for your supplies list (almost assuredly not the last thing), seagrape leaves. I always do a base layer of these in a new viv. They break down pretty quickly and serve as a great layer for isopods and springtails to feed on and establish in.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

JasonE said:


> I definitely can't endorse this. We all use fabric lids. Mites get through those. They will absolutely crash your cultures. I've lost more springtails to mites than flies, but I had an entire shelf of cultures die because I didn't use mite prevention.
> 
> Use mite prevention.


Note that I did not say fabric. Mites can indeed get through most fabrics like cotton or similar, but nylon cloth has small enough "pores" that they cannot pass through. Think like shower curtain nylon, not the mesh used for socks or a panty. I have not had mite problems in my cultures for over two years, and I don't have any mite prevention outside of the nylon. My hydei cultures don't even have that as they don't like the higher humidity that comes with the nylon, and they really don't care about mites.

I am also still convinced that mites entering a culture from outside is less of an issue compared to introducing them together with the flies, and I have not seen any evidence so far to show otherwise. Making sure that flies are mite-free when they are used to set up new cultures is imo more important than preventing mites running between cultures.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Johanovich said:


> I am also still convinced that mites entering a culture from outside is less of an issue compared to introducing them together with the flies, and I have not seen any evidence so far to show otherwise. Making sure that flies are mite-free when they are used to set up new cultures is imo more important than preventing mites running between cultures.


I certainly can't disagree with this part. I dust my flies with calcium powder before adding them to a new culture. Supposedly this kills the mites. And I haven't had any ff crashes since I started doing this. 

But I have had springtails crash from mites. And that had nothing to do with transferring from one culture to another. So I'm still going to strongly suggest using mite spray or paper to keep cultures on.


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## ParrotAlex (Aug 7, 2021)

As for obtaining cork and other supplies, definitely look into local shops if you can. My LPS which stocks only herp-related supplies has a really great selection of cork for decent prices, and they've got plants as well. Perhaps more expensive than usual, but you needn't pay for shipping!


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I will now make my usual pitch for community. There is no substitute for having some friends in the hobby that are local to you. This is the best place for frogs, supplies, plants, etc. Take a minute to go to the Regional Group & Events section of the Sub-forum List and see what's going on in your region. If there is nothing recent in there, drop a post in there asking if there is anyone in your area. 

This hobby is a whole lot easier when you have a community that you can bounce ideas off of, trade with, and maybe combine purchasing power with. I buy big boxes of cork and have them in my garage. My frog friends know this and whenever they start up a new tank, they come over and rummage through my cork. I don't need all of that cork myself, but I know I will eventually sell it and my friends are still getting a better deal than they would if they bought it piecemeal. I also send folks home with plant clippings every time they come over. It's that kind of stuff that helped me a ton when I was getting started and it makes the hobby a lot more fun for me, too. Look around and see who you have around you. It might surprise you who is in your neck of the woods.

Mark


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> I will now make my usual pitch for community. There is no substitute for having some friends in the hobby that are local to you. This is the best place for frogs, supplies, plants, etc. Take a minute to go to the Regional Group & Events section of the Sub-forum List and see what's going on in your region. If there is nothing recent in there, drop a post in there asking if there is anyone in your area.
> 
> This hobby is a whole lot easier when you have a community that you can bounce ideas off of, trade with, and maybe combine purchasing power with. I buy big boxes of cork and have them in my garage. My frog friends know this and whenever they start up a new tank, they come over and rummage through my cork. I don't need all of that cork myself, but I know I will eventually sell it and my friends are still getting a better deal than they would if they bought it piecemeal. I also send folks home with plant clippings every time they come over. It's that kind of stuff that helped me a ton when I was getting started and it makes the hobby a lot more fun for me, too. Look around and see who you have around you. It might surprise you who is in your neck of the woods.
> 
> Mark


Mark makes a great point, meeting people local to you to talk frogs and share things is a great idea , can get you the plant cuttings to start a vivarium for virtually nothing.

And yet I have a bin of plants I'm trying to give away that no one near me wants to come pick up... Guess I just live too far away from the rest of the Canadian froggers...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Johanovich said:


> I am also still convinced that mites entering a culture from outside is less of an issue compared to introducing them together with the flies, and I have not seen any evidence so far to show otherwise.


My FF rack:









The cup each cx sits in to keep DE off the bottom of the cx. Brown dust is dead mites:










The DE moat. White stuff is DE, big black chunks are detritus from who knows where, and brown dust is three years worth of dead mites (I've not cleaned this since setting it up this way):










Before I set up the DE moat, my cups were crawling with mites on the outside. Certainly they got in (a) when I open and close the cups, and (b) when a lid doesn't quite seat right, which is not infrequently.


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## BlueJohn (Sep 13, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> My FF rack:
> View attachment 302247
> 
> 
> ...


Yikes, haha. Looks like a good system though. Thats a lot of cultures, but Im guessing you have a million vivs. For 1 viv do you think 3 ongoing cultures is enough? If a culture lasts 3 weeks, and each freshly started culture takes 3 weeks to start producing, then I can start a new culture every 2 weeks and that gives me a week of overlap time for safety.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I always suggest starting a culture a week, regardless of how few tanks you have. Two weeks doesn't leave you much flexibility in how you address any problems that occur. You will have way too many flies, but I can't tell you how much better of a problem that is to have than not having enough flies. I still remember the feeling in the pit of my stomach when I don't have the flies to feed my guys because of some random production problem. This is especially true for new folks who are more likely to have catastrophic failures in their fly cultures. 

Mark


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Yep, one cx a week is the minimum.

I have 15 frog vivs in total currently; what you see there is adequate, but not excessive. I start 3 or so ever five-ish days. I also run a couple hydei cxs mostly for geckos, but frogs get the excess.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

BlueJohn said:


> Yikes, haha. Looks like a good system though. Thats a lot of cultures, but Im guessing you have a million vivs. For 1 viv do you think 3 ongoing cultures is enough? If a culture lasts 3 weeks, and each freshly started culture takes 3 weeks to start producing, then I can start a new culture every 2 weeks and that gives me a week of overlap time for safety.


I do one culture every 10 days. Once a week is a good place to start though. You'll learn how your production works as you go along. For me, at my temps, my cultures boom about every 10 days. I always have at least 3 cultures going - one post-boom, one booming, and one waiting to boom. And one culture at a time is more than enough for my 10 ranitomeya.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Agreed with what was said before, once a week is a good habit. I still only set up once a week, and I'm currently on 6 melanogaster and 3 hydei cultures every week. I keep my cultures in an old refrigerator (stripped from electronics). I only have 4 tanks, of which only 3 eat fruit flies, but I've got over 200 offspring to feed currently and reed frogs are voracious eating machines. Without offspring I only need two of each, but I do one extra melanogaster to be sure. Having surplus is better than coming up short.


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