# SAFE Adhesive for PVC.



## Cyber Locc (Mar 29, 2020)

Hey guys, so I had a question that I figured this would be the best place to ask. 

I need a way to attach PVC panels, to a metal frame AND attach cork background to the PVC. 

I have read that Silicon will not adhere to PVC, Acrylic Latex caulk will I seen, however folks say that is not safe for animals, nor standing water (anyone used that?). 

I would prefer to just use Glass, but I am in a rock and a hardspot lol. I live 6 hours from a city with large pet stores, my local shop wants 500 for a 24x18x36, that I am after. So my plan is to buy one of those Exoterra screen terrariums and yank the screen and replace it with PVC panels.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

Are you talking about using expanded PVC (opaque) or polycarbonate (transparent)?


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## Cyber Locc (Mar 29, 2020)

kimcmich said:


> Greetings,
> 
> Are you talking about using expanded PVC (opaque) or polycarbonate (transparent)?


PVC, Opaque, White, PVC Foam Board. 


I guess I could use Polycarbonate, its twice the price of PVC though, the walls will be lined with cork anyhow so no sense buying clear material.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

A quick search of the forum using the terms "PVC vivarium" yields several really good construction builds of... "PVC vivariums"

Off the top of my head, you could attach PVC panels to metal framing using stainless steel screws through predrilled holes. But if you chemically bond the panels together, I don't think you would need metal framing. (the bonds are very strong) I offer no guarantees on the toxicity of the bonding agents, you'd have to search that yourself. 

Looks like in some of the example builds, polyurethane foam was used to stick cork and wood to the panels.


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## Cyber Locc (Mar 29, 2020)

Broseph said:


> A quick search of the forum using the terms "PVC vivarium" yields several really good construction builds of... "PVC vivariums"
> 
> Off the top of my head, you could attach PVC panels to metal framing using stainless steel screws through predrilled holes. But if you chemically bond the panels together, I don't think you would need metal framing. (the bonds are very strong) I offer no guarantees on the toxicity of the bonding agents, you'd have to search that yourself.
> 
> Looks like in some of the example builds, polyurethane foam was used to stick cork and wood to the panels.


Thanks, the issue with that is that I want the metal framing as i do not want sliding doors, and need the door to be solid screen. 

I could build a viv out of all PVC, and still have a screen door i guess. however that is more akin to a wood build, that uses large thick PVC panels, which cost more than this method and only come in White, I want black, which only comes up to 1/4 inch from my supplier. 

I am aware of the foam, piece of cork bark and eco earth topped backgrounds. That is not what I am after, I am lining the inside with the cork tiles. I need to do too many of these, and these are for arboreal animals, ecoearth walls are not natural. 

The steel screws, are not an option without modifications to the screen frames, by putting it in between them and adapting hardware. I have done that in the past, however for my current plans, that is not going to work, or fulfill my current need. 

I need 8 of these vivs right now, with another 10 later this year. Foam backgrounds, adapting hardware, ect, that is simply not in the cards for this project. I need an Adhesive, like silicon that is not toxic, that will adhere to PVC, which Silicon will not. there is a cage company that makes them, with SS to attach the panels, they are currently redoing their line, or I would buy those (and still might) BUT, that still doesnt solve the background panel issue.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> But if you chemically bond the panels together, I don't think you would need metal framing. (the bonds are very strong)


Yeah, OP you lost me at "metal frame". WTF?!?!? No dude. Just no. I mean you could, but _why_?



> I offer no guarantees on the toxicity of the bonding agents, you'd have to search that yourself.


Yeah but


> A quick search of the forum using the terms "PVC vivarium" yields several really good construction builds of... "PVC vivariums"


Ah, the tautology. The beauty of the circular form. Ha ha. Anyway - PVC cages have been around a long time now. Plenty of large commercial squamate breeders now have cultured multiple generations in PVC cages. It doesn't say much about frog safety, but it's something to consider.

Another thing you could consider is painting the inside of the assembled hull. Proper, thorough prep is - as usual - essential. But you can paint PVC. If you top-coat with e.g. Drylok, well, you know that's fish- and frog-safe. If you have any concerns, just separate the animals from what worries you.

Good luck!


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## Cyber Locc (Mar 29, 2020)

jgragg said:


> Yeah, OP you lost me at "metal frame". WTF?!?!? No dude. Just no. I mean you could, but _why_?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I could, not use the metal and that has been done. It also requires more work, a lot more money (those use thick PVC boards, I am using 1/8 inch PVC, not half inch), and time to build those. When I need 18 of them in the next 6 months or so, you can see how that becomes an issue. 

These vivs are not for frogs, I asked here, because you guys work with PVC more than the Chameleons people that the vivs are for. 










That company makes the vivs, that I am after, and thats a picture. They do wedge the PVC between the frames as the other posted suggested, however doing so, to a stock screen cage is more difficult as it requires changing hardware ect, the cage really needs to be designed for it. They are redesigning their cages, ATM, so thats out for now (no stock for a few months) and even then, I want Black PVC, not white, and I still need to adhere background Panels. NOT Foam and pieces of Cork, Chameleons use and climb on the panel, foam backgrounds is not what I am after and defiantly dont have the time to do 18 of them. 

So I want to remove the Screen, and Silicon in the PVC panels that you see above. 


As to the "Plethora of PVC cages" thats true, and I would go that route, but even the folks that make those in "Arboreal Versions" do not do so correctly, and I do not want Sliding glass doors. The Arboreal cages have the ventilation of a Bearded dragon cage, as snakes and Beardies are who those company's focus on, and that does not work for the Arboreal Chameleons and Leaf Tail Geckos that will be kept in these vivs. 

Exoterras would work great, but again are cost prohibitive due to shipping prices. The custom viv makers, have better shipping rates, but sliding doors that I do not want the "Knockdown guys" either have no Venting (see beardie guys) or Venting on the sides, the vivariums will be side by side in shelves, side venting is not going to work, and there will need to be visual barriers. 
So I kind of have to build it myself. 

I would love for there to be a "Boxed" offering, that is Glass and not 500 dollars each, but there simply isnt.


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## Broseph (Dec 5, 2011)

Cyber Locc said:


> I am aware of the foam, piece of cork bark and eco earth topped backgrounds. That is not what I am after, I am lining the inside with the cork tiles. I need to do too many of these, and these are for arboreal animals, ecoearth walls are not natural.


Gotcha. If expanding foam (polyurethane) sticks, then Gorilla Glue (polyurethane) should also stick. I also use cork tiles for a lot of vivs. 



jragg said:


> Ah, the tautology. The beauty of the circular form.


Ha ha, yeah... I’m reluctant to give hard advice around here; froggers seem to REALLY like solid scientific references and absolute certainty of safety. I can rarely offer either of those things.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

My experience building with sheet PVC is somewhat limited (a 28 qt snake rack, a 32-hole hatchling rack, and a 30 x 24 x 36 cham cage), so take this for what it's worth.

I've used 6mm (~1/4") for backing, and it is not very confidence inspiring even at that thickness. I myself wouldn't want to use anything less for anything, even framed. I use 12mm, and even that depends on the strength of the overall structure for rigidity. Melamine (junky Menards stuff even)/wood is such a different material it isn't even funny.

I've used Lexel to (try to seal), and failed. Silicone caulk sort of is, kind of, watertight-ish on the seams, but neither are structural at all.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings again,

Have you tried PVC pipe glue? I would experiment on the expanded version of PVC since PVC glue is a solvent cement. But considering it is approved for potable water use and widely-used in reefing, it should be safe for viv construction.

That said, I share Socratic's concern about the strength of the material - especially for the _bottom_ of the viv. I would also be concerned about caulk providing a dependable bond - with smooth plastics you usually want to get substrate-specific glue.


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## Cyber Locc (Mar 29, 2020)

kimcmich said:


> Greetings again,
> 
> Have you tried PVC pipe glue? I would experiment on the expanded version of PVC since PVC glue is a solvent cement. But considering it is approved for potable water use and widely-used in reefing, it should be safe for viv construction.
> 
> That said, I share Socratic's concern about the strength of the material - especially for the _bottom_ of the viv. I would also be concerned about caulk providing a dependable bond - with smooth plastics you usually want to get substrate-specific glue.


The PVC Glue wont adhere to the Alu Frame. 


And thats good to know, about the strength as Mentioned. I think Dragonstrand actually uses the regular PVC sheets, not the foam board now that he mentions it. 

So that increases price, quite a bit. Actually puts it to polycarbonate pricing. So in that case, I may lean to the Polycarb, as I know that is more rigid in the sizes needed. 

Silicon will stick to Polycarb right? I will have to black out or cork the side panels in that case, but thats okay.


As for the bottom, I am in between ideas with that. They use a PVC floor by default, the screen is sold with one. However, I am not sure if I am going to Panel that off, and use the screen on the door. Or Polycarb the door and use that screen bottom, and a Custom Made Substrate tray (or buy one) and build a EU style vent. If I do my own tray (Most likely) I will make it from 1/2 pvc board most likely.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I will throw a few ideas out there, in case you have not thought of them. 

I think the point of the aluminum frame is just to create structure, you dont need the PVC to stick that well to the metal. And honestly IME nothing sticks to metal that well. When you try to mix vastly different materials things get tricky. Think of the metal more like the plastic on a cheap aquarium,its not suppose to seal, its just supposed to provide a guide and some structure. I would lay a bead of silicone in the metal, then drop the PVC in and let it cure. Once its cured I would then use PVC cement to secure the PVC pieces to each other. I bet the combination of those would be strong and yet at the same time flexible. It should provide enough structure to last for years. 

I assume when making this post that you are cost-constrained for this project, so you aren't going to find the perfect material. 

But if you want to try the next level you can try this, use west systems epoxy and use sandpaper to rough up any surface it is trying to connect. I actually have a big project where I have many different materials and that's one of the products that I have used that seems to be able to connect various different materials together decently well, but it absolutely requires you to try to create lots of texture for it to grab well. 

Another idea, you can make silicone or epoxy work with anything that does not need to be watertight, you just make holes or grooves for the product to go through. I have fixed many things that did not last this way. Once silicone goes through the holes it's essentially like a rubber band holding things together.

Lastly, you can put a thick PVC on 2 sides and thin PVC on the others, this is a fun trick that furniture makers do to get away with less materials.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

> Silicon will stick to Polycarb right?


No - silicon*e* will not bond to polycarb. It sticks when wet but you can peel it right off as soon as it cures. I've actually used polycarb as a non-stick substrate for making silicone letters.

How many sides of the viv do you want to be transparent? If you only want the front and top transparent, you could build the other 4 sides from wood with a water-proof coating or paint (epoxy or polyurethane are options).


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Lastly, you can put a thick PVC on 2 sides and thin PVC on the others, this is a fun trick that furniture makers do to get away with less materials.


That's a helpful idea. I was wondering about using plywood instead of thicker PVC on some of the panels. Definitely the base, and maybe the rear? Just to give something rigid to work out from. Quarter inch PVC is pretty damn floppy, I agree wholeheartedly.

If you're got a real hard-on for black, you could use black Pond Shield to waterproof the plywood. I've never yet used it, but by most accounts it's good stuff.

Another notion was something like extruded PVC profiles, or maybe the "fillet epoxy" someone showed us here the other day. Silver something. Here, I just looked it up - System 3's "SilverTip EZ Fillet". This link - a vendor, not the mfr'r - provides a lot of comparative info. Fiberglass Supply - Epoxy Resins, West System Epoxy, System Three Epoxies

With good prep, and maybe adding Pubfiction's idea about drilling holes for the epoxy to push through for "grab", fillets could work. Or just use more PVC for framing - 1" square profiles or whatever, and the same cement you'll use for the panel edges. 

Understanding your application and situation better now, I wonder also if maybe you could just rivet your aluminum materials to the PVC sheeting. Make a face-frame of the aluminum framing, to which you could screw your little door hinges and latches.

So - there's a little basket of competing ideas to toy with. Hope this helps some. Seems like you're in quite a pickle, time-wise. And you've got *quite a lot* of construction work ahead. Yeah, whoa, whole lotta work staring at you. Whatcha got, a chams shipment coming in or something?

Good luck!!!


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