# housing froglets with subadults questions



## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

I recently purchased one frog sub adult from my local pet store the next day I received my 3 others azureus all 4 from joshs frogs once they arrived I noticed that my pet store frog was quite bigger and did not realize my joshs frogs would be their size how do I know if all the frogs will be getting adequate food?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

The first thing you should be concerned with is quarantining them separately to make sure they don't cross infect each other, in the event that they are carrying some pathogen of parasite.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

They been together for a week at this point I think that would be irrelevant I was just wondering if anyone had advice who may have had a similar situation where you have to raise smaller frogs with a larger one I am unable to to get another tank so building one is unfortunately not an option at this point


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Oh well, best of luck


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Never said I was professional right? first tank first frogs kinda thought this site was built to help people right? That last comment was in no way of any help but thanks anyway


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

monty89 said:


> first tank first frogs kinda thought this site was built to help people right?


He tried.....


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Well that's after he deleted his comment that said apparently good husbandry is irrelevant and replaced that with good luck


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> The first thing you should be concerned with is quarantining them separately to make sure they don't cross infect each other, in the event that they are carrying some pathogen of parasite.


^^^ So this wasn't helpful?


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Yea that was a great idea how ever the comment that followed was kinda uneccesarry


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

You planning on getting fecals done?


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

No I don't think that I'm going to have that done


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

That's exactly my point. If you're not willing to follow basic frog husbandry 101, step 1...why should I bother?

You'll be out of the hobby in a year anyway.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

monty89 said:


> No I don't think that I'm going to have that done


Out of curiosity, why not?


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

First of all none of this has anything at all to do with my original question! I wanted advice regarding housing froglets with sub adults let's say they all came from the same place so no fecal testing neccessary are there any signs that I should be aware of that in the event it will be something that I will notice early. And rusty really ur opinions stupid I'm sure u have 1000 frogs and knew everything there was to know about them the day you bought them. I did research online for about 6 months before even building my tank about what they eat humidity temp pairs breeding feeding mating building my tank misting systems "irrelevant" good husbandry that you keep preaching for my first frogs they are all healthy active bold and eating I wanted advice from someone who may have had a similar experience or maybe could give advice with out preaching in a demeaning fashion. Only reason I'm not I've never heard of it I'm not dismissing it as good advice but I feel like if that were very very important I would have at least read about, and doubt there are vets for darts near me nor do I have the money to spend on something that may not be even neccesarry at this point.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

To answer your question, research indicates *robot voice*, that there will almost always be rivalry between smaller and larger frogs, maybe the larger frogs will dominate more while feeding, or bully smaller frogs off certain areas of the tank cause it belongs to them.

I'd maybe just watch them for any aggression, but i would defiantly have another tank just in case they do start fighting or wrestling with each other, you will have another tank for them to be separated to and that could easily save your frogs.

Pics?


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks for the advice that's all I was looking for and yea I have some pics hold one one second I have to upload them to photobucket


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> That's exactly my point. If you're not willing to follow basic frog husbandry 101, step 1...why should I bother?
> 
> You'll be out of the hobby in a year anyway.


First tank and first frogs.

Your advise to house seperate was a week late. Kinda like after a car accident telling someone they should of stopped faster....

They don't want to get fecals , so you basically say $%$ off?

You expect everyone to do months or years of research before buying frogs....
Not really realistic. Many impulse buys.....

We could go to congress and see about a application / qualification process, with maybe a 6 month waiting period


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Rusty and jacobi would you at least look at my pics through the link and tell me what you think? I think it was well thought out for my first tank.


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## Amphibian addict (May 15, 2012)

Rusty's right, and you shouldn't be talking down to him considering he's one of the most knowledgeable members on this forum. Hes just trying to make a point and by fussing about it your doing nothing but putting yourself up for those kinds of comments. And on the side of getting your question answered, if the difference in size is that dramatic you could separate the larger one and feed them like that until maturity. But with that your also looking at introducing older frogs, and that doesn't necessarily work out that well sometimes. On a side note i currently have a group of terrabilis and one of them is incredibly smaller than the others but still eats twice as much as the larger ones. So really the decision is up to you, you could try to keep them together at the start, but if it really doesn't work out then you could always try that alternative.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Pictures by monty8989 - Photobucket


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## simonphelps (May 29, 2012)

Sorry for all the disrespect from others. PM sent answering your question.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

simonphelps said:


> Sorry for all the disrespect from others. PM sent answering your question.


Thankyou very much I appreciate the help. I dont look through forums and search plants and food and frog species and care sheets just to come here ask questions and have people act like your a complete idiot because you haven't done things exactly the right way. Everyone has to start somewhere, everyone makes mistakes. Approaching a mistake with ur an idiot and you will be out of the hobby in a year is in my opinion, someone who is arrogant. If you knew so much about this hobby you would understand the newness factor you would understand how to communicate or answer the question in a way that someone new might understand and if you can't then just don't answer it at all wouldnt that be easier than looking like an idiot.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Pictures by monty8989 - Photobucket


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

How big is this viv?


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## LarryLee (Jan 15, 2012)

tank looks good, need to add leaf litter, the pics with large frog having foot on smaller ones could be a sign of agression... Leaf litter will give any of the shyer smaller frogs a place to hide...
Larry


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

LarryLee is right. You need leaf litter, and you could throw a few pieces of cork bark in there to give them more hiding spaces. I may have missed it, but what are you using for substrate? Is the vivarium vented at all, or completely air tight? What are the interior temperatures?

Nobody was trying to be rude yesterday. However, I would suggest that you search the forums for threads about fecal testing, parasites, pathogens, and fungal issues. Even if you don't think these things are an issue, by the time you realise it is, it may be to late. Do you know where the pet store got the frogs from? Most pet stores are sadly not known for their attention to the animals health in regards to quarantining and disinfecting enclosures between occupants. There IS a risk of them harbouring some form of pathogen, and it may have been transferred to the frogs you bought from Josh's (who I would still quarantine frogs from, even though I trust them). 

People here are willing to help... Don't mistake terseness for rudeness.

Apart from that, nice frogs


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Rusty is right...the proper thing to do is to quarantine frogs from different sources seperately and perform fecals for parasites. There are actually many members on here (newbies and older) who never do either one and have been lucky. BUT...you may want to read up on this and find out why they are both highly recommended so that you can make a more informed decision for yourself. I'm sorry that you were shut down so early in the discussion...that won't help anything. If we (members) really want what is best for the frogs and for new people to join the hobby and become better frog keepers...we need to teach what we know and not turn people away. Rusty is usually a nice guy. Hopefully your opinion of him will change in the future.


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

LarryLee said:


> tank looks good, need to add leaf litter, the pics with large frog having foot on smaller ones could be a sign of agression... Leaf litter will give any of the shyer smaller frogs a place to hide...
> Larry


Larry is right, add some leaf litter. Giving frogs a place to hide makes them more bold. 

You should also consider seeding your tank with some microfauna like springtails. This provides your frogs an extra source of food. It'll also give you a little extra leeway when your fly cultures crash the first time. I'm not saying that because you are new (though it does increase the possibility until you get a system worked out) but it does happen to most people eventually.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Where did the rest of my post go???

I also said ...

One way to ensure that your frogs have a better chance at receiving enough food is to sprinkle it throughout the viv instead of just dumping flies in one spot. Another is to set up feeding stations...just place slices of banana in different areas of the viv for the flies to be attracted to.

Tincs are not known to be great group frogs. As they start to mature, aggression often becomes an issue. Female on female aggression is the most talked about, but I have also witnessed male on male aggression quite a few times. It also may not be an out-and-out brawl...stress is a less obvious problem. It may often go unnoticed until your frog is thin, weak, hiding all the time, climbing the walls constantly, or even dead.

You should really find a way to seperate if necessary. It doesn't have to be an elaborate viv. You can get a cheap 10 gallon at Walmart for about $13 (sometimes cheaper on Craigslist, but disinfect well), throw in some sphagnum moss and pothos clippings, cover with saran wrap and your frog will be much happier than being stuck in a well-decorated viv with a frog that is bullying it to possible death.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

I would recommend that you have fecals done and build a separate tank in case the larger animals do stress or dominate the smaller ones. If you don't have the money to properly care for your animals I would recommend that you sell them to someone who does.

My $.02


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

This is completely unrelated to the housing thing, but If that is irish/scotish moss, I would recommend removing it and using it in your garden, it needs a dormancy period and Literally melts in humid conditions....


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

I think you should increase the number of hiding spots and feed more heavily and often. Stand back and watch to make sure everyone is getting feed. If you notice aggression with the larger frog, you should put him in a smaller viv for a month or two, to let them catch up in size. Once you return him, you will need to watch the others to make sure they do not get aggressive to him, as they will have made their own territory. Hope this helps.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

jeeperrs said:


> I think you should increase the number of hiding spots and feed more heavily and often. Stand back and watch to make sure everyone is getting feed. If you notice aggression with the larger frog, you should put him in a smaller viv for a month or two, to let them catch up in size. Once you return him, you will need to watch the others to make sure they do not get aggressive to him, as they will have made their own territory. Hope this helps.


Yes, you can also counter act there aggression to a new frog by rearranging the tank, but this could be a pain depending on how you have your set up.

In salt water systems, you can accomplish this the same way when you add a new fish, you can rearrange the live rock to make it look like a new tank so that there are no "territory" issues.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks for those who provided helpful advice I usually feed in multiple locations in my viv I'm waiting on a shipment of leaf litter already so far I haven't seen any of the smaller frogs being bullied by the latter one you can't see it from the pics but both pieces of bark that are placed in the background have more than enough places for them to hide there are lots of deep crevices in the wood and they often go there at night. Also in my actual titebond background I carved two tunnels that go into the wall about an inch and are 3 inches long and come out of the wall 3 inches horizontally. The log in the bottom is shaped like a u and is pressed into the substrate and has an opening and goes down about 3 inches into the substrate creating a cave like hut. All the frogs are as of now healthy active bright bold and don't hide or jump away when I feed them.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

MrBiggs said:


> I would recommend that you have fecals done and build a separate tank in case the larger animals do stress or dominate the smaller ones. If you don't have the money to properly care for your animals I would recommend that you sell them to someone who does.
> 
> My $.02


Well you can keep ur $.02 cents its pretty much as worthless to me as it is to all other new people who are looking for constructive advice. I can afford my frogs but having two tanks is not neccesarry at this point if I saw a noticeable amount of agressiion or hiding all day or not eating I would make a smaller viv at this point its not neccesarry and, what I've read correct me if I'm wrong which I very well may be I am new, I thought I read that a lot of things that are contagious from frogs are very easy to transfer and would assume that being together for two weeks is kind of to late. I'm not denying that its important or that I understand its a precautionary measure but now that they are mixed I'm not taking them to have it done.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

monty89 said:


> Well you can keep ur $.02 cents its pretty much as worthless to me


Constructive advice is rarely taken by those who've already made up their minds about something before they even post their thread. No worries though, I'll continue giving my $.02 whether you're interested in it or not. Perhaps someone else will find it of more value.



monty89 said:


> as it is to all other new people who are looking for constructive advice.


My advice was constructive, you just didn't like it. Those two are not mutually exclusive.



monty89 said:


> I can afford my frogs but having two tanks is not neccesarry


Being able to afford something means being able to take care of all their needs. While a second may or may not be necessary, you obviously didn't know that prior to experimenting on your animals. Such actions are a sign of poor husbandry.



monty89 said:


> lot of things that are contagious from frogs are very easy to transfer and would assume that being together for two weeks is kind of to late.


It's too late to prevent cross infection, true, but it's not too late to have fecals done to see if there is anything there that needs to be treated.



monty89 said:


> I'm not denying that its important or that I understand its a precautionary measure but now that they are mixed I'm not taking them to have it done.


And why, exactly, is that?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

monty89 said:


> I can afford my frogs but having two tanks is not neccesarry at this point if I saw a noticeable amount of agressiion or hiding all day or not eating I would make a smaller viv at this point its not neccesarry


In your situation, it *is* necessary to have two tanks. When they hit breeding age, it's possible, for all hell to break loose...Everyone should have a spare tank kicking around...MrBiggs made a good point!


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Sounds good thanks.


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

monty89 said:


> Sounds good thanks.


Translation: I understand what you're saying but have absolutely no plans whatsoever to act on your advice. :thumbsdown:


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Either way I'm sure you know what your doing, there your frogs and I am sure you watch them all the time, just keep a close eye and do what you think is right, like anything keeping frogs is a learning curve just like when I started getting into salt water aquariums, man I didnt know too much but after a couple of dead corals, i figured it out pretty quickly lol.

I am sure you will be fine, people on this thread take there hobby pretty darn serious, as these animals are really cool no one wants to see any of them taken care of in a "wrong manner" some people may or may not give you good advice its all how you take it, the way I see it personally is as long as you are doing what you can to the best of your ability with what tools and budget you have, then your alright by me. 

Best of luck, and please keep us posted.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

This is also what I was trying to nicely say. Although it is too late to avoid cross-contamination...there are other issues that you should be aware of and prepared for such as aggression. It can literally be fine one day in a tinc tank and then an all-out war situation the next. It is best to have another tank ready for separation.

Also, I agree that fecals would be a good idea, especially in a tank with 4 tincs of different ages from different sources where stress can put them at a disadvantage and allow the parasites to grow unchecked.

And, you're right, Monty...many people don't realize how easy it is for parasites and pathogens to cross-contaminate tanks. If you are using the same paper towel to wipe viv glass, mist using the same mister, feed from the same feeding cup, etc or even a fruit fly escaping from one tank into another...you're frogs are at risk. It's truly mind-boggling the things you must do and protect against to ensure that cross-contamination does not occur.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

mimic711 said:


> Either way I'm sure you know what your doing, there your frogs and I am sure you watch them all the time, just keep a close eye and do what you think is right, like anything keeping frogs is a learning curve just like when I started getting into salt water aquariums, man I didnt know too much but after a couple of dead corals, i figured it out pretty quickly lol.
> 
> I am sure you will be fine, people on this thread take there hobby pretty darn serious, as these animals are really cool no one wants to see any of them taken care of in a "wrong manner" some people may or may not give you good advice its all how you take it, the way I see it personally is as long as you are doing what you can to the best of your ability with what tools and budget you have, then your alright by me.
> 
> Best of luck, and please keep us posted.


 Thanks man appreciate it I may not be the best keeper in the world but I am addicted to this hobby I would love to have a side job just building the tanks for others obviously not near enough of the skill level yet but I really enjoy it. Ever since I've had them I've been glued to my tank always watching checking temp humidity checking for agression I always watch them eat to ensure the smallest do eat if they don't then later I come back and put a few flies in near the small frog if I think they didn't get enough. I love the hobby plan on getting more frogs but maybe two years down the road. I have isopods pill bugs in there as alternative food and cleaning also gettin springs . Feed them hydei fff. But I appreciate the criticism that is helpful much more than someone talking to you like ur dumb. I pretty much disregard rude comments weather they are right or wrong I would rather just carry on a normal conversation. I'm sure being a smart @$$ has gotten them very far in life Congrats, along with waiting till there friend comments and others jump on board barking out their opinions of horrible of an owner u are. I don't need any of that so keep giving ur two cents and ill keep skipping over to the next post. Thanks


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

MrBiggs said:


> Translation: I understand what you're saying but have absolutely no plans whatsoever to act on your advice. :thumbsdown:


Pretty much not everyone's just urs two thumbs up


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

monty89 said:


> Pretty much not everyone's just urs two thumbs up


No one here was (at first) or should be disrespecting anyone on any level. People gave their honest, experienced, and truthful input to be taken purely as helpful information and constructive criticism. Whether you chose to follow it or not is your own prerogative, but there should be a mutual respect between the OP and those people posting. If you choose to take their input with a grain of salt and bite the bullet to follow their lead, then great. If you chose not to, that is fine to, but you take on the responsibility of possibly learning from mistakes. There is nothing wrong with this and most people on here have at one point in time had a similar experience, but they were just trying to prevent such occurrences. Best of luck with the frogs, I am sure it will work out fine and you are taking the responsibility in stride to make any efforts based on the frogs best interests. Just keep a really close eye on them and separate if needed, even if it is a simple temp setup.

One thing I will mention however is you would be wise to show respect to anyone about any post they make. Coming off hostel and abrasive as a noobie on here is a quick-fire way to fall out of favor with those who have the experience and knowledge to help you out in this hobby. I haven't even been a member that long, but I have seem many times where people have come and gone quickly due to their lack of acceptance and respect of others.

Cheers!


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Thanks also appreciate the advice weather I was abrasive or not obviously sometimes things get taken out of context or w/e but there's plenty of people on here I don't have to like them all such is life. I belive that I've gotten my question answered from those who put in the effort to answer my original question and not go off on a tangent that's a whole different thread so thanks to all who actually gave helpful advice to those of you who posted to tell me that I have no idea what I'm doing good for you there will always be others who answer. I'm out on this, oh and good examples set as well by " the most experienced on the site" kinda figured someone you look up to not someone who looks down on you. And I quote " obviously good husbandry is irrelevant" sounds very helpful


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

monty89 said:


> thanks to all who actually gave helpful advice


You're welcome.



monty89 said:


> And I quote " obviously good husbandry is irrelevant" sounds very helpful


It's an admonishment. Wise people listen to and learn from the mistakes of others. The foolish heed only their own advice.

As an aside, how old are you by chance? Just curious.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Biggs, age is irrelevant. and in my line of business you need a form executed and notarized to request that information LOL. just giving you hard time, im 26 if anyone cares 0.0


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

BTW monty, I'd love to see photos if you can snap a couple


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

mimic711 said:


> BTW monty, I'd love to see photos if you can snap a couple


I agree with that.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

mimic711 said:


> BTW monty, I'd love to see photos if you can snap a couple


 Pictures by monty8989 - Photobucket


There ya go what ya think


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

23 years old


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

BEAUTIFUL Frogs m8, those black circles make the blue POP.

It was a tough choice between azures or leucs, I went with Yellow & Black instead .

Azures will be 2nd.


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## monty89 (Sep 2, 2012)

Just want to be a good owner and do things properly that's why I asked my original question all the bs answers the skewed my opinion of this site weren't necessary but I will continue to use it I just realize that when some people say things its easier to just wait for the next reply with actual helpful advice


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Welcome Monty,

Believe it or not, most of the advice given so far regarding pathogens is pretty beginner stuff and pretty accurate as well. There is nothing more discouraging, and nothing that will make you give up the hobby more effectively, than watching your frogs slowly waste away without explanation. Even the commenters that were terse were trying to help you avoid that situation. I can certainly see why they got their hackles up when you told them their comments were not welcome.

I've had frogs that I have had tested and I've not tested others in the past. I've been both careful and lucky. I'm not saying that's necessarily been smart (I test all new acquisitions now) but I certainly would never trust a purchase from most pet stores. Usually their hygiene is poor. The animals often have questionable sources and they are famous for housing animals together that shouldn't be. The fear that I would have (assume) is that the pet store animal could have infected the other 4 and now your dealing with more treatments than if you would have kept them separate. I'm not telling you anything you don't know, though.

As regards aggression in that tank toward the smaller froglet, you may get it, you may not. But "watching for it" isn't as easy as you think. What do you expect to see? How does frog aggression look? Often it's wrestling, but usually it's not. Usually it's just intimidation. Everything will look fine, the bullied frog will just get skinny, wither away, and eventually disappear. Now since you haven't had anything tested, if that happens you wont know if he was being bullied, if there was a parasite load that just hit him harder because he's small, or if he's just the first to go with others following.

That kind of thing can take the joy out of the hobby.

Also, I can't see the tank because photobucket never works on my browser, but you would have to have a pretty large tank and just the right gender combination for their not to be some pretty grand scale aggression in your future when these frogs hit sexual maturity. Azureus do much better in pairs or male heavy trios...5 is tough.

So at the LEAST, I would have the pet store frog tested. I suspect it's not as expensive as you are expecting. If a treatment is needed I would apply it to all the frogs and sanitize the tank. I would also start making plans about how to break these frogs up when they do start fighting. It's a hassle, but only because you got things out of order due to inexperience. It's up to you. You can do nothing and hope to get lucky, but even at this point an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Good luck either way. 

<Redacted, Catfur>


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Boondoggle said:


> Everything will look fine, the bullied frog will just get skinny, wither away, and eventually disappear. Now since you haven't had anything tested, if that happens you wont know if he was being bullied, if there was a parasite load that just hit him harder because he's small, or if he's just the first to go with others following.


I'm going to emphasize one of the points here... if one or more of the frogs is infected with lungworms or hookworms, then your also probably going to have to trash the decorations, substrate and anything that is organic since the lungworms (Rhabdius ssp), have a free living form that produces both infectious and free living offspring, and hookworm eggs and larva can persist quite awhile in the enclosures (think potentially months)... Both of these parasites are known to occur in captive bred dendrobatid frogs.... so the advice on quarantine and testing is actually quite serious since you could have spent a lot of money on plants, wood, cork etc only to have to toss it out. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ed said:


> I'm going to emphasize one of the points here... if one or more of the frogs is infected with lungworms or hookworms, then your also probably going to have to trash the decorations, substrate and anything that is organic since the lungworms (Rhabdius ssp), have a free living form that produces both infectious and free living offspring, and hookworm eggs and larva can persist quite awhile in the enclosures (think potentially months)... Both of these parasites are known to occur in captive bred dendrobatid frogs.... so the advice on quarantine and testing is actually quite serious since you could have spent a lot of money on plants, wood, cork etc only to have to toss it out.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Damn, I'll be the first to admit, I wasnt going to initially send stool samples to get tested, but after reading that, I feel almost obligated, your right i'm dumping well over $1000 on my first 2 tanks, would be freakin PISSED if it all died.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Arrrgh!

Thread locked for cleanup.

PEOPLE!!!!


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Thread re-opened.

Be NICE, dangit!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Hey monty89. Welcome to the DB jungle! 

My opinions, as someone who has not forgotten what it's like to be a noob:

The frogs are already together. No point in worrying about quarantine now. As for fecals, it is better to get them. However, they have already been introduced to their tank, so, really not as important now. If they start losing weight, I would get fecals and move them to a new, clean, tank.

It is a good idea to have one or two extra tanks set up. They don't have to be as elaborate as the one you already have (which I really like, btw). Azureus are territorial and are better kept in pairs when they reach breeding age. So, be sure to keep an eye on them and be ready to separate them out. Frog fighting is funny to watch, but dart frogs will fight to the death.


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