# Do Tincs 'climb'?



## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

As title, do Tincs only use the vivarium floor? I understand they're not arboreal as such but how much climbing do they actually do, what are their limitations - and why?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Which tinc?


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Tincs in general I suppose?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

its been documented that tinc eggs have been found 20 meters up in a tree hole, in situ


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Thanks. I ask because I keep reading that they ‘need’ floor space in a viv. They’re doubtless happier on the ground but just how much vertical space will they actually use?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Ime, they use every inch available.


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## DPfarr (Nov 24, 2017)

My azureus climb some challenging obstacles. Their graceful movement is not why I keep them. They struggle to do some things but they get floor to the highest perches. 

My largest cobalt can move quite well up and well she’s got descent problems. My cobalt male has a Frank Reynolds physique and isn’t a fan of climbing and going up. 

Yes, give them height to move up and down.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

I haven't kept tinctorius in years, but I seem to remember them easily climbing a couple of feet high, and would have gone higher if they had the chance. 

They weren't particularly good at it but managed well enough.

How high is 'terrestrial'? 3, 4, 5, 6 feet? What does that entail in terms of inclines, perches, obstacles etc.?

I think giving them as much space as is practical is always a good idea. Just maybe have a few levels of plants to break their fall.


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## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

All my tincs are in 24 inch high tanks and I regularly find them climbing to the top and staying there for several days to a week until coming back down. My tanks also all have different levels so that all their weight is supported and they feel comfortable. I think in the grand scheme of things, climbing just 2 feet high doesn't really make an animal 'arboreal'. 24 inches is nothing.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

All Dart Frogs climb.

Some 'roost' high at night to avoid predators.

There is a certain percentage of time the frog will be high or low - usually based on body habitus.

We basically have two choices in this hobby - to make a 'tall' tank or a 'flatter' tank. Yes, there are square tanks, but for the sake of this discussion....

I use Tall for thumbnails and pumilio / types

I use flatter tanks for heavy bodied frogs like tincs and phylos and those types.


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## Tinc Tank (Jun 29, 2019)

Philsuma said:


> Some 'roost' high at night to avoid predators.


I have definitely noticed this 'roosting'. When ever I see my tincs camped out in a cork round embedded in the background it always reminds me of a bird in a birdhouse.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Thanks all.

And to counter (it's about species choice!) do Ranitomeya use ground level even if just for feeding?


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

It just depends on the frogs. My Nominal Fants seem to value the floor space quite a bit. They hang out low more often. I rarely see my Reticulata on the ground. Vanzos are somewhere in between. My pums and other obligates seem to use it all fairly equally. Tincs and Terribs will go everywhere but spend the majority of time on the ground. Just remember that all of the above could be as much about a response to how I have my tanks set up as to a genuine preference toward a specific "level."

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

PBM3000 said:


> Thanks all.
> 
> And to counter (it's about species choice!) do Ranitomeya use ground level even if just for feeding?


Same answer, all of the frogs should (be able to) use every inch of our tanks... C'mon guys, we are only talking about a few inches... I realy don't understand why some people say their frogs live on the botom of their tank or some only live higher. Than I can only say they have a problem with their tank or the tank does not have enougf surface or the botom is to wet or the top is too hot,....

Last weekend I was at a lecture were Guido Sterkendries told me that he found O.Vincentei in trees at a hight of 14meters during the dry period and they climb to 40meters during the rainseason... Thats 26meters difference for a frog thats about 2centimeters tall. When you see clips of insitu frogs, you notice they jump meters in just a few seconds. 

I hope this answer helps.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Sorry you don't like how my frogs behave, Tijl  I guess they haven't read the papers! I agree that most frogs will use the whole tank eventually. However, there are very definite patterns to where many (most?) frogs spend the majority of their time. Why would you not choose a tank design and form factor that support the majority of where they spend their time? Should I invest all the time and money in a super tall enclosure for frogs that will use it maybe 5% of their lives? I think it's a perfectly valid strategy to build tanks with the most common habits of the frogs in mind. That's the way I do all of my tanks. I wouldn't waste a 36" tall enclosure on my Terribs. It just isn't worth it. I will invest that money and space in a species that takes more advantage of it. If I had the money and space, all of my frogs would be in 36x18x36 tanks or larger. That's not my reality, though, so I make what I feel are appropriate compromises.

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> Sorry you don't like how my frogs behave, Tijl  I guess they haven't read the papers! I agree that most frogs will use the whole tank eventually. However, there are very definite patterns to where many (most?) frogs spend the majority of their time. Why would you not choose a tank design and form factor that support the majority of where they spend their time? Should I invest all the time and money in a super tall enclosure for frogs that will use it maybe 5% of their lives? I think it's a perfectly valid strategy to build tanks with the most common habits of the frogs in mind. That's the way I do all of my tanks. I wouldn't waste a 36" tall enclosure on my Terribs. It just isn't worth it. I will invest that money and space in a species that takes more advantage of it. If I had the money and space, all of my frogs would be in 36x18x36 tanks or larger. That's not my reality, though, so I make what I feel are appropriate compromises.
> 
> Mark


haha, I totaly understand what your are saying tho. I am just not as good with words and the English language as you are.  I 100% agree with you saying that most frogs don't need a very huge tank, but all the tanks should be designed for the individual behavior and needs of a specific type of frog. When we accomplish that, you we see the frogs all over the tank and or space that they are given and they can use. Even terribilis


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Your English is great, Tijl, and a lot better than I am with French, German or Dutch! I get what you are saying, too. I have enough experience with different species in different tanks, though, that I don't buy into the idea that frogs don't have a preference as to where they spend their time. I can't accept that tank design would lead to my Terribs spending more time in the heights of the tank than on the ground. Almost all frogs will follow food into the heights of the tank, but I think that some will return to spending time in the places in the tank where they are most comfortable (lower). I stand by what I said about where my frogs tend to spend time. It is possible that it is all tank design that drives them to these locations, but I don't think that's it completely. My Retics have every opportunity to spend more time on the ground and they don't. It's just not where they are comfortable.

Good discussion!

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Encyclia said:


> Your English is great, Tijl, and a lot better than I am with French, German or Dutch! I get what you are saying, too. I have enough experience with different species in different tanks, though, that I don't buy into the idea that frogs don't have a preference as to where they spend their time. I can't accept that tank design would lead to my Terribs spending more time in the heights of the tank than on the ground. Almost all frogs will follow food into the heights of the tank, but I think that some will return to spending time in the places in the tank where they are most comfortable (lower). I stand by what I said about where my frogs tend to spend time. It is possible that it is all tank design that drives them to these locations, but I don't think that's it completely. My Retics have every opportunity to spend more time on the ground and they don't. It's just not where they are comfortable.
> 
> Good discussion!
> 
> Mark


Yes, this is a good discussion. My believe is that we just cannot create enougf comfterable space that they CAN use. We have to be aware of airflow, temperatures, humidity, microclimate, light intensity,... This is hard to perfect or optimize is our small enclosures. That is why they prefer some spots is the tank that suit them as being the best. I am sure if I change they layout of the tank, our adjust the lighting or airflow, the frogs change their "regular" spots. So they can move from the upper part of the tank, to sundely being at the ground all the time.

I am sure your reticulata can be made comftrable at the ground, if the ground space or another factor get adjusted to suits their needs better than the other spots in the tank. Sometimes something as simple as adding or removing a plant can cause this to happen.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

I suppose I need my question answering subjectively... what species would _you_ put in this 55g?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

tincs or 'tinc' types...auratus, phyllobates. Heavy bodied large frogs.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Philsuma said:


> tincs or 'tinc' types...auratus, phyllobates. Heavy bodied large frogs.


That surprises me. I would have thought they wouldn’t make use of the relatively thin branches? I’d also be limited to a max of 4 and they’d look lost in there I think.

I’m looking (hoping) for a group of Ranitomeya. Would they not be a better fit?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The way we as modern humans have been habitualized to see and intellectually organize space is probably not the same as other organisms experience it. 

Especially when we look at a Framed Space; we tend to diorama-ize its scale in defined levels that may not represent an actual piece of habitat.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Tijl said:


> Yes, this is a good discussion. My believe is that we just cannot create enougf comfterable space that they CAN use. We have to be aware of airflow, temperatures, humidity, microclimate, light intensity,... This is hard to perfect or optimize is our small enclosures. That is why they prefer some spots is the tank that suit them as being the best. I am sure if I change they layout of the tank, our adjust the lighting or airflow, the frogs change their "regular" spots. So they can move from the upper part of the tank, to sundely being at the ground all the time.
> 
> I am sure your reticulata can be made comftrable at the ground, if the ground space or another factor get adjusted to suits their needs better than the other spots in the tank. Sometimes something as simple as adding or removing a plant can cause this to happen.


Yeah, I hear you, and you maybe right, but I am not so sure. I think we are both just guessing  That's just fine. There isn't always a clear, research-derived path forward in keeping our frogs. I am certain that both of us are doing what we think is best for our frogs 

Mark


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

PBM3000 said:


> That surprises me. I would have thought they wouldn’t make use of the relatively thin branches? I’d also be limited to a max of 4 and they’d look lost in there I think.
> 
> I’m looking (hoping) for a group of Ranitomeya. Would they not be a better fit?


I wouldn't be so sure. I agree with Philsuma that this tank lends itself well to larger, heavy-bodied frogs. You have a lot of floor space in there which would be helpful for larger frogs. I am not seeing a ton of climbing opportunities in the negative space, either, but maybe I am missing it. There do seem to be plenty of hiding opportunities.

The difference between Tincs and Terribs (not Auratus, in my experience, they hide) and Ranitomeya (again, in my experience) is that I rarely have trouble finding my larger frogs in the tank whereas some of my Ranitomeya hide enough that I rarely see them all at once. So, you might want to ask yourself if you would rather see all 4-6 of your Terribs/both of your Tinc pair or would you rather see 1 or 2 of your 8 Ranitomeya? That might be one way to look at things, anyway.

Mark


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

To me, this tank screams for a big pair of Tinctorius Cironella!
A group of 5 Phyllobates Bicolor would also be amazing! I think a group of Terribilis will make your tank look smaller than it is due to the size of terribilis... A pair of Terribilis would also work fine! But that is my opinion on what the eye wants.

Anyway, yellow it is!



And again, Mark just gave realy some good advice in seeing 2 out of 8 smal frogs or... You know.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

I'm grateful for these opinions and I'm glad it's sparked some healthy discussion.

I've checked out Phyllobates Bicolor and they're out due to the call being too loud (for the wife, not me). Same for Terribs.

You see, I'm rather smitten by Ranitomeya Amazonica due to their colouration and quiet call. Not only are they colourful; they can be kept in groups apparently. I still feel that a pair of Tincs, although fun, would be woefully lost in there and perhaps unable to use the branches/heights. All things graciously considered, yes I'd rather see 1 or 2 of my 8 R. Amazonica than just two Tincs rattling around a large enclosure like two marbles in a tin. At least I'd _know_ the tank's being fully used with the smaller, nimble Ranis. I do get what you're saying though and I _am_ quite tempted just to get Tincs as they're much cheaper compared to Ranis. 

That said, I'm a plant guy too and I get as much joy out of flora as I do fauna. Now that it's been put to me, however, I don't think I'd be at all upset at not seeing all my frogs at once. One or two at a time* would be just fine and I'd enjoy the hunt to spot them (up there in amongst the 'branches' and walkways). If they're hiding today, well that's fine - it's their home, not mine. I still have a halfway decent enclosure to admire. 

Are you saying I could keep _eight_ Ranis in there? This is getting expensive! 

* Would Ranitomeya show as a group at feeding times? 
.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

PBM3000 said:


> All things graciously considered, yes I'd rather see 1 or 2 of my 8 R. Amazonica than just two Tincs rattling around a large enclosure like two marbles in a tin.
> .


I'd rather have one thumbnail than a whole bucketful of Tincs. I understand your desire. 

I don't have amazonica, but my sirensis don't show themselves at feeding time much, and my vanzolinii aren't much better. Imitators do, but groups are not recommended.

I don't see any problem with eight group-tolerant thumbs in there, but I don't have much experience grouping them (I run most of mine in pairs).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Just for fun, here's a video clip of amazonica in situ (with some calling!).






I don't know why they live there; I wouldn't design a thumbnail viv to look like that.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Just for fun, here's a video clip of amazonica in situ (with some calling!).
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuM_5f9Lt10
> 
> I don't know why they live there; I wouldn't design a thumbnail viv to look like that.


I love it when people share these insitu clips! Thank you for doing this, feel free to post more


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## Cakers (Sep 10, 2017)

I have one adventurous Azureus climbs to top of my 24' exo tank waits by gecko feeder cup that attracks ff's. She will stay a long time by that cup. Smart right.


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## raycentral (Oct 25, 2019)

I have seen tics use vertical space. They will explore and take advantage of their encloser


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Thanks all so far. 

Anyone else have suggestions? I'm dead set on yellow/blue/orange colouration (think D. Tinc. 'Robertus' / R. Amazonica / Iquitos), must play well in a group.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

play well in a group absolutely leaves out Dendrobates tinctorius 'Robertus'.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Even a 2.1?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

PBM3000 said:


> Even a 2.1?


that's the most recommended ratio, yes but I'd call that a 'trio'

not to be utterly pedantic but a group is more than 3...more like 4-5 or 6. Def not recommended for Tincs.


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## PBM3000 (Oct 4, 2019)

Thanks. I’m really struggling with species choice for this. I gather that one would normally buy four (or more) Tincs then separate out if (when) issues arise? I won’t have any other tanks to house them, bar a small quarantine tank. Tincs are bold and active and I realise now that three would be enough for a 55g but I wouldn’t want just two. 

Going for Ranitomeya on the other hand would ‘fill’ the enclosure (and my colour preferences) but it wouldn’t seem occupied at first glance due to their size and their reclusive nature. 

What a quandary. Can someone breed some Ranitomeya Amazinctorious for me? 😄


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## raycentral (Oct 25, 2019)

PBM3000 said:


> Even a 2.1?


Ive heard that called a reverse trio where a 1.2 is a trio. just my .02


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

raycentral said:


> Ive heard that called a reverse trio where a 1.2 is a trio. just my .02


Yes, but the distinction being made here was that between a 'group' and 'not a group'.


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## bssknox (Apr 24, 2017)

PBM3000 said:


> Thanks all so far.
> 
> Anyone else have suggestions? I'm dead set on yellow/blue/orange colouration (think D. Tinc. 'Robertus' / R. Amazonica / Iquitos), must play well in a group.


Orange A. galactonotus would fall into this. Most cases do well in a group and easy to care for.


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## Fullmoonwanderer (Nov 14, 2019)

Maybe in the wild they’re considered terrestrial because they generally stay “low” but they definitely love to climb and venture all over the vivarium, and they’re very good at it, even my large female I’ve seen clinging to glass


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