# Tadpols with mouth fungus



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

We have the occassion problem with mouth fungus,in our tadpols.This always happens,in the first week and before i start feeding so we can rule out high protien food.I realise i might have an underlying problem with my water,but losses are for the most part sporadic,generally all is well, i'm after a treatment for the few and to find out if there has been any progress on this recently 
as most of the threads i have serched are quite old,i would like to know what the available treatments are today.I have come across saline as a potential treatment,in what dosage would this be used. Whist reading up before posting i noticed somebody mentioned that there is an organ that detaches in the first few days,this is used by the tad to hold on to dad during transport,is this true? 
If a tadpole gets this problem then mortality is 100%,normally within 24 hrs occassionally 48 hrs,of us spotting it.
We are using oakleaf tea but are also just starting to experiment with aldercone as i have been told this is a natural fungicide. and we might also investigate indian almond,i'm lead to beieve tannin content is higher in these two alternatives?
Finally is this fungal or bacterial?
thanks to all in advance
regards
Stu


----------



## mordoria (Jan 28, 2011)

I know the indian almond leaves have a high anti-bacterial effect.
I also keep an aldercone or two floating in my water in the tanks. My water never gets funky


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

thanks David,
Stu


----------



## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

I used to get this problem back when I used tad tea after they had already come out of the egg. I was told by another breeder to use only bottled water safe for making baby food (because the quality never changes) once they hatch out and when I switched the issue went away.


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

hexentanz said:


> I used to get this problem back when I used tad tea after they had already come out of the egg. I was told by another breeder to use only bottled water safe for making baby food (because the quality never changes) once they hatch out and when I switched the issue went away.


very interesting do you use no tad tea now for the whole reaing process?
thankyou
Stu


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a number of different fungal pathogens that can cause this sort of issue and they can invade a water source via dust in the air carrying the fungus. This means that the source of the water is not guaranteed to prevent the infections. 

Often these are opportunistic pathogens targeting stressed animals and/or abrasions on the tadpoles. Cooler temperatures favor these fungal infections. 

Salt dips/baths have been commonly used to treat fish eggs and fish (see for example (not a free copy) Taylor & Francis Online :: The Use of Salt Solutions to Control Fungus (Saprolegnia) Infestations on Salmon Eggs - The Progressive Fish-Culturist - Volume 55, Issue 1 


I am not a vet but there is evidence that salt baths can help this sort of issue see Caudata Culture Articles - Salt Solutions in Treating Salamanders. It is up to you to decide if you want to see if this works. 


Ed


----------



## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

Altough i am no fan of using medication to much,
you might check into using eSHa 2000.

eSHa 2000 treats a wide range of fungal, bacterial and parasitic infections, helps heal wounds and protects the skin layer. Use eSHa 2000 for Fungus, Dropsy, bacteria, skin problems, gill problems, fin rot, tail rot, ulcers and wounds

One property is it cures mouth fungus in fish, reading the leaflet it tells that the cause of this is a bacteria called flexibacter.
However, i used it now and then in some species that looked excessively prone to the mouth fungus.
Whenever i used the eSHa 2000 it turned out fine and the froglets just grew up normally.


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> There are a number of different fungal pathogens that can cause this sort of issue and they can invade a water source via dust in the air carrying the fungus. This means that the source of the water is not guaranteed to prevent the infections.
> 
> Often these are opportunistic pathogens targeting stressed animals and/or abrasions on the tadpoles. Cooler temperatures favor these fungal infections.
> 
> ...


as always thank you sir i'm aware of the fish guys using this,i have not yet read the links i'm hoping there is a dilution rate to go off. tis late here i just wondered is there any truth in this organ developed for holding on to dad becoming detached,or is this a myth,curious i am.
I'm kind of of the view Ed that seen as everysingle one has died when we see this,i have absolutly nothing else to offer the tadpole,so it must be worth a try,
thanks i am going to read the last link before sleep 
regards
stu


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I was unable to locate anything discussing a structure on the the tadpole that assists in adhesion. In Tadpoles: The biology of anuran larva there is discussion about changes in the skin of the adult that allows for a better adhesion. 
Do you have a source from where you heard that bit of information? 
Ed


----------



## hexentanz (Sep 18, 2008)

stu&shaz said:


> very interesting do you use no tad tea now for the whole reaing process?
> thankyou
> Stu


I used tad tea for the days until they left the egg and then moved them to separate cups filled with the baby food safe water. Once every two weeks I removed a bit of the water and added new, this was done until they were about to pop legs. Morph containers also got baby safe water added to them.


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

wesleybrouwer said:


> Altough i am no fan of using medication to much,
> you might check into using eSHa 2000.
> 
> eSHa 2000 treats a wide range of fungal, bacterial and parasitic infections, helps heal wounds and protects the skin layer. Use eSHa 2000 for Fungus, Dropsy, bacteria, skin problems, gill problems, fin rot, tail rot, ulcers and wounds
> ...


thankyou Wesley,could you give me a makers name,i am in the uk,so it might help with locating this,very interesting,it would be nice to be armed with some,forms of treatment,when we next see this,i will try the salt bath possibly first if it occurs before we find this,
thanks again
Stu


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> I was unable to locate anything discussing a structure on the the tadpole that assists in adhesion. In Tadpoles: The biology of anuran larva there is discussion about changes in the skin of the adult that allows for a better adhesion.
> Do you have a source from where you heard that bit of information?
> Ed


i read it here Ed,before posting i did various serches,centered around mouth fungus in tadpols,it came up on one of those threads,damned if i can remember which one though,apologies,i read alot before posting,TRY not to waste peoples valuble time,repeating themselves.i'll look later,to see if i can ref. it.Thanks again
Stu


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

hexentanz said:


> I used tad tea for the days until they left the egg and then moved them to separate cups filled with the baby food safe water. Once every two weeks I removed a bit of the water and added new, this was done until they were about to pop legs. Morph containers also got baby safe water added to them.


Thankyou Maureen for the clarification,again very interesting
regards
Stu


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wesleybrouwer said:


> Altough i am no fan of using medication to much,
> you might check into using eSHa 2000.
> 
> eSHa 2000 treats a wide range of fungal, bacterial and parasitic infections, helps heal wounds and protects the skin layer. Use eSHa 2000 for Fungus, Dropsy, bacteria, skin problems, gill problems, fin rot, tail rot, ulcers and wounds
> ...


 
I'm always very leery of over the counter medications that make huge claims with vague information on what the medication actually contains. However if one looks hard enough it is possible to locate the ingredients. See Medicine Ingredients - The Turquoise Aquarium and scroll down the list. I would not suggest using anything that contains copper ions on tadpoles as they are considered very sensitive to copper with results ranging from slowed growth and decreased size at metamorphosis. 
Flexibacter columnaris tends to be a problem at temperatures above 78 F and before making a presumptive diagnosis checking it under a microscope is suggested to make sure that you are not dealing with a fungal pathogen. 

Ed


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> i read it here Ed,before posting i did various serches,centered around mouth fungus in tadpols,it came up on one of those threads,damned if i can remember which one though,apologies,i read alot before posting,TRY not to waste peoples valuble time,repeating themselves.i'll look later,to see if i can ref. it.Thanks again
> Stu


Just checking as it sounded a little odd. 

Ed


----------



## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm always very leery of over the counter medications that make huge claims with vague information on what the medication actually contains. However if one looks hard enough it is possible to locate the ingredients. See Medicine Ingredients - The Turquoise Aquarium and scroll down the list. I would not suggest using anything that contains copper ions on tadpoles as they are considered very sensitive to copper with results ranging from slowed growth and decreased size at metamorphosis.
> Flexibacter columnaris tends to be a problem at temperatures above 78 F and before making a presumptive diagnosis checking it under a microscope is suggested to make sure that you are not dealing with a fungal pathogen.
> 
> Ed


I'm just sharing my experience, and that is that it helped against the exact symptoms as described here.
Whether the cause are bacteria or fungi, it worked 90% of the times i was in time with the treatment.

Still have some frogs i raised as tadpoles using this.
No problems at all regarding growth or anything.
I just used it highly diluted and never experienced any problems using it.


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> Just checking as it sounded a little odd.
> 
> Ed


It did to me to Ed thats why i asked,about it,i have tried to find the post but now my search results are either directing me here or giving a different set of threads,i have read the salamander thread,presumably the lowest dose of salt would be appicable here,of course this last batch of tadpols are not showing any signs yet so i'll have to wait untill it rears its ugly head again before i can learn anything more,but it would be nice to be at least armed with something next time,then hopefully the law of sod will come into play and i won't see it,its very occassional for the most part,
thankyou
regards
Stu


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wesleybrouwer said:


> I'm just sharing my experience, and that is that it helped against the exact symptoms as described here.
> Whether the cause are bacteria or fungi, it worked 90% of the times i was in time with the treatment.
> 
> Still have some frogs i raised as tadpoles using this.
> ...


If you highly diluted it then you probably took it below the theraputic dose and the use of the medication had nothing to do with the recovery. There is a reason they suggest specific dosages as those are the minimal dose in which theraputic activity is known to occur. 

On digging through the literature, copper has no effect on Flavobacterium (Flexibacter columaris) columnare (see abstract here Acute columnaris infection in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque): efficacy of practical treatments for warmwater aquaculture ponds - Thomas-Jinu - 2004 - Journal of Fish Diseases - Wiley Online Library) and ethacridine lactate has poor activity against F. columnare as F. columnare is a gram negative bacteria (http://www.ppme.eu/layout/set/print/content/download/1826/6431/file/2007-E3 p56-7 Feature.pdf), proflavin is also not effective against gram negative bacteria (see Proflavine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and methyl orange does not have any indication that it is of value as an antibiotic as it is an indicator dye, which is probably added so people can see that there is a dose in the tank. 

So if your tadpoles had Flavobacterium (Flexibacter columnaris) columnare infection of the mouth parts, the medication you used does on real analysis have any action on that bacteria much less any chance in a highly diluted form. 
Outside of copper the above drugs are also pretty ineffectual against fungal infections and this is before we get to the issue of dilutions... 

When using medications, unless you really know what you are doing, dilution is one of the worst decisions you can make as all you are really doing is selecting for resistence in the bacteria and exposing the tadpoles to harm without any real justification. 

Ed


----------



## wesleybrouwer (Apr 17, 2010)

On the package a dosage is given,
as it is for aquarium use, they speak about it in drops per Litre.
So i suppose the dosage they are giving isn't to weak.

I'm not saying you have to use it.
But i know it has worked for me.
Feel free to give it a try, or don't.....

Maybe it's a language barrier of some sort,
but as i tried saying,
90% of the times i used the eSHa 2000 when i found the tadpoles with the mouth fungus, if it is a fungus,
they healed up nicely without any side effects.

The ones i did not treat died of it.
For me that is enough reason to believe that it works in the dose they are giving in the leaflet.
Otherwise it would be to much of a coincedence that the ones untreated died short after and the ones that were treated healed up 9 out of 10 times.

The catappa leaves i use now seem to work preventively,
but don't seem to do much when an outbreak already occured.


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

wesleybrouwer said:


> On the package a dosage is given,
> as it is for aquarium use, they speak about it in drops per Litre.
> So i suppose the dosage they are giving isn't to weak.
> 
> ...


Wesly i am very greatful for your thoughts on this,i have been using alder cone tea since i posted this,and so far have not seen this again,but its too early to tell,if this will rid us of the problem completely,it may well be acting like your cappata leaves preventatively,a few weeks and i'll know more
thankyou again
regards
Stu


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wesleybrouwer said:


> On the package a dosage is given,
> as it is for aquarium use, they speak about it in drops per Litre.
> So i suppose the dosage they are giving isn't to weak.
> 
> ...


So it can't be coincidence that they survived? Isn't that the logic used for spontaneous generation? 

You are correct in the fact that I won't use it for any tadpoles that I get with mouth fungus as I would prefer to actually use a product that contains a ingredient that is known to work on it.. as opposed to using one that has no ingredients that work for that pathogen. 

Ed


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed, ,are the tannins different in oak almond,and alder,or do they all belong to the same family of tannins.From what i've read oak was widely used,now indain almond seems more widespread for teas,i've been told it has a much higher tannin content than oak refering to leaves here. I have read alcones are very high in tannin content much higher than the others do you know if this is the case.Still very early to know if we have prevented this but no reoccurance so far, using alder tea and then adding a bit of oak leaf later in the week,we have also started to wash all tad glasses in the "incubator" before use with a bit of alder tea and added a couple of drops to the eggs mass,thought being to prevent any fungus geting to the eggs before hatch,although we have seem no presence of mold/fungus on any egg masses,previously,so a precautionary measure,a bit like i would have done with my poutry eggs but obviously with a different set of parameters.i am thinking that as this fungus strikes so early in the tadpoles life it might just be presant before hatch day, would you have any thoughts against this? i'm aware that folks use methylene blue,but would rather utilise natures resourses if possible,especially something as sustainable as an aldercone.
once again thankyou for your thoughts and wisdom very greatful 
regards
Stu


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ian Hiller has for a long time used red alder cones to supply tannins for his frogs. He gave a nice presentation on this at one of the early International Amphibian Days (IAD). 

I do not think the fungus/bacteria is present before the eggs hatch. It is simply an opportunistic infection that attacks tadpoles that are weakened for some reason or another. 

Personally I think with the information that we now know about nutritional needs we should see a reduction in these sorts of issues. I've reared a lot of tadpoles from multiple taxa without ever seeing a case of mouth fungus in the last couple of decades. 

Ed


----------



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

thanks again,all the little ones are still going well,so fingers crossed we have seen the back of this, time will tell! 
regards
Stu


----------

