# Silkworms for frogs to eat...



## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

I am ordering silkworms for the little guys. They'll eat them in addition to their normal diet of fruit flies until the silkworm colony is well-established. I am thinking of making the switch-over to silkworms entirely b/c they have a lot more protein and other vitamins than the flies do, and they don't stink or have as many issues with mold/decay in their breeding environment. Anyone had experience with these guys that they'd like to share?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I'd start with eggs, and test out what frogs will eat them freshly hatched (the best size for the most acceptance). I wouldn't go whole hog until you know they are worth getting into as they are a lot of work. I would recomend them mostly for the large eating PDFs (phyllobates, epipedobates, etc) rather than tinc group frogs, but if you're will eat them all the better!

Also... I hope you have more than PDFs you're trying to feed these to. These are not a feeder particularly worth the effort unless you have a use for the larger larvae (bearded dragons, chameleons, etc). These can be somewhat pricey to raise (in time, space, and money for food) unless you have a need for feeders of the larger sizes too and make it more worth it.


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## fishfry (Aug 20, 2006)

I have tried feeding baby silkworms (tiny tiny tiny) to PDFs and they wouldn't take any of them. I offered them to the Phyllobates first knowing they take larger prey and no dice, I then offered them to some galacs and auratus and no takers. Luckily there are many other animals that love them so they didn't go to waste, the bug lady gave me a TON of them. I don't know how big an insect an adult Phyllobates terribilis can take but I have found some animals prefer the silk moths to the larvae...it could also be that the frogs I am working with have never had a varied diet so I just need to experiment longer or leave the food items in the tank longer? Also, if you have a ready supply of mulberry leaves like I am fortunate to have access too they are not hard at all to raise, if you have to go out of your way to collect the leaves then it is a lot more challenging.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

It's more challenging unless you buy the silkworm food... which if you get the powder and make yourself it reeks :shock: Maybe it was just me, and the food at the time (this was when the powdered food just came out) but ugh... nasty. Many places that have the powder have it premade into the gel too, but then shipping is more $$$. Also, once the larvae get a taste of real leaves, they won't go back to the gel.

PDF tips... get the eggs and hatch them, freshly hatched they are a better size for most PDFs. 

Second... the only reason my frogs ate them was because they were in the bowl and showed vague signs of movement. Outside the bowl they were generally ignored. They aren't terribly active little bugs, and are typically had fed to other animals (hold them in your fingers and they squirm, I've had my bicolor take them this way). Most of my frogs are bowl fed, and they will eat anything in the bowl that shows signs of movement - even things they would ignore outside the bowl. Start the bowl feeding with termites, and when they clean the bowl of RFB larvae in 45min you know you've got them set for the bowl, and likely will be able feed the silkworms out. Other than by hand or by bowl, I've not had much luck with the inactive larvae... I believe the caterpillars and such aren't as appitizung to PDFs since they aren't a major part of the wild diet.

The moths are too big for PDFs, but I raise lesser wax worms to feed to my phyllobates... they love the little moths


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Second... the only reason my frogs ate them was because they were in the bowl and showed vague signs of movement. Outside the bowl they were generally ignored. They aren't terribly active little bugs, and are typically had fed to other animals (hold them in your fingers and they squirm, I've had my bicolor take them this way). Most of my frogs are bowl fed, and they will eat anything in the bowl that shows signs of movement - even things they would ignore outside the bowl. Start the bowl feeding with termites, and when they clean the bowl of RFB larvae in 45min you know you've got them set for the bowl, and likely will be able feed the silkworms out. Other than by hand or by bowl, I've not had much luck with the inactive larvae... I believe the caterpillars and such aren't as appitizung to PDFs since they aren't a major part of the wild diet.


I've never really tried bowl feeding the PDFs, but will tell you that the newts and salamanders zone in on the forceps like nobody's business (even freshly collected WC adults)! I prefer feeding this way because it allows me to monitor the exact food intake of each of the sals in an enclosure. Always entertaining to see the tiger and fire sals lunging at the forceps to snag that piece of earthworm, waxworm, mealie, etc. I'm not surprised that the Phyllobates take to handfeeding quickly- little piranhas.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Yeah, you sould see the video of terrbilis attacking my fingers... purely because my hands were in the tank :roll: I do tend to hand feed the bicolor (and likely terribilis if I had them) since I have issues with certain animals eating all the food, but a larger tank with multiple food bowls works well too.

Even my shy species now come out and sit around the bowl soon after I put it in! :mrgreen:


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## flyangler18 (Oct 26, 2007)

> Yeah, you sould see the video of terrbilis attacking my fingers... purely because my hands were in the tank


Ahem, I was there  

For the edification of everyone else: http://www.frognet.org/albums/mjm23-frogs/DSCN1999.mov


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Hah! You were weren't you... I didn't know if you were watching... I was in the midst of mono and only have vague memories of the event. I know at one point I mistook Greg for Dan and about all they have in visual similarity is hair color/cut and height :lol: 

Vicious little terribs!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Thanks everyone---I am also looking forward to raising them and having them lay their own eggs. I ordered a pound of premade food and am planning on keeping them as a sort of lower-on-the-food-chain pet. I have kept them before and if I can get a mulberry tree this next spring, I can stop ordering food online. 

I am going to go ahead and try them out---the eggs will hatch in a day or so. I know the worms go through growth phases where they stop moving, so it is best to wait until that stage is over and they're back to feeding before giving them to the frogs.


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## housevibe7 (Sep 24, 2006)

I tried them and I tend to agree with Corey on this one. Much more work than they are worth, and they also are very susceptible to mold and old food. If you dont take it out right away they will go mushy and die. I think I will stick to lesser waxworms and other feeders.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

housevibe7 said:


> I tried them and I tend to agree with Corey on this one. Much more work than they are worth, and they also are very susceptible to mold and old food. If you dont take it out right away they will go mushy and die. I think I will stick to lesser waxworms and other feeders.


I think they are really cool--I've raised them before. I am going to invest in a mulberry tree so that the moldy food thing isn't a year-round issue. I know fruit flies have their own issues, and so far I have had good luck with the cultures, but they smell awful and sometimes turn into flighted fruit flies. I was looking for something more sanitary---we'll see how it goes. But it's more maintenance than the FFs, for sure.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

"but they smell awful" - change your media. I use Ed's media and people coming into my house rarely notice them. Lots of reasons for the flying flies, just have to take all the measures to prevent them. Not sure what you mean by more sanitary... since I'd say the silkies are messier :shock: Both silks and FFs can be kept very clean, so I'm kinda confused to what you mean?

Key bit about the mulberry... they only like fresh leaves (so you can't feed them this all year around) and if you ever feed the gel fed worms mulberry leaves they will not go back to the gel. This is fine to start them on gel and switch over, but at the end of the season that you can harvest the soft mulberry leaves they will eat (particularly tricky for the tiny babies which need the softest and are best started on gel anyways) this can really be detrimental... unless you can have a lot of leaves available all year around, you may be better sticking to the gel all the time.

Moldy food just meant you put out too much. Smaller meals more often!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

KeroKero said:


> "but they smell awful" - change your media. I use Ed's media and people coming into my house rarely notice them. Lots of reasons for the flying flies, just have to take all the measures to prevent them. Not sure what you mean by more sanitary... since I'd say the silkies are messier :shock: Both silks and FFs can be kept very clean, so I'm kinda confused to what you mean?
> 
> Key bit about the mulberry... they only like fresh leaves (so you can't feed them this all year around) and if you ever feed the gel fed worms mulberry leaves they will not go back to the gel. This is fine to start them on gel and switch over, but at the end of the season that you can harvest the soft mulberry leaves they will eat (particularly tricky for the tiny babies which need the softest and are best started on gel anyways) this can really be detrimental... unless you can have a lot of leaves available all year around, you may be better sticking to the gel all the time.
> 
> Moldy food just meant you put out too much. Smaller meals more often!


Thanks for the tips. I raised some previously on just leaves----this may be the difference in smell---who knows. I kept my crate really clean, esp. as they grew larger, and the smell was not an issue. What I mean by more sanitary is the food they eat---it's not a goopy, sticky rotten mess that smells like old cheese throughout the room, as it is with the flies---I guess if you left the poop in there it would get pretty ripe. I'm thinking it would be wise to get a grate for the bottom of the cage to make it easier to get the poop out.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I agree, that stuff is pretty rank. May want to contact some of the silkworm suppliers and ask about feeding fresh leaves to the worms... specifically which leaves, will one tree be enough, are you in a place where you'd have the leaves all year around, etc. Better to have it one way or another.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i have tried them in the past the frogs love them, but they are a pain to pick out little worms just like flour beetle larvae, so is more of a task consuming thing than anything else, they are better to grow out to about 1/4 inch and feed to larger frogs like tincts and terriblis, they are high nutritios and very high in fat so if you have a finicky eater or skinny frog they are great for that purpose.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I always hatched them out in petri dishes, and usually fed them out before they were too big to leave the dish. If you buy them as loose eggs (or get loose eggs from your moths) you can simply put as many eggs in a dish as you'd like to feed out at one time.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

KeroKero said:


> I always hatched them out in petri dishes, and usually fed them out before they were too big to leave the dish. If you buy them as loose eggs (or get loose eggs from your moths) you can simply put as many eggs in a dish as you'd like to feed out at one time.


I am planning on raising ten of them or so to adulthood and keep the culture going. I think it will work out OK, esp. since I can freeze some extra food if I get it in large quantities. I know I live in an area where I will not have fresh leaves all year---however, with bright window light you can keep a smaller mulberry tree indoors---but then you might not have enough food to go around should they eat all the leaves within three months!


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Definately something to bug a silky breeder about - they should know. 

Also... new thing on the market are "Zebra Silkworms" (saw it on Coastal's site, don't know who else sells them). I'm not totally sure how they relate to the originals (special line bred variation or something? Can't find much info) and while more expensive, they are supposed to be hardier, and grow faster (but I've also read that they really aren't that different). Extra bonus... being able to sex them young since only one sex is striped... if you want to breed them this is very handy so you can keep a few and get the sex ratio you want. Mulberry Farms (the original place to sell silks for Chams I believe) says they are a hardier strain than the typical chinese strain... dunno, but something to think about. Just the sexing would make life easier.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

KeroKero said:


> Definately something to bug a silky breeder about - they should know.
> 
> Also... new thing on the market are "Zebra Silkworms" (saw it on Coastal's site, don't know who else sells them). I'm not totally sure how they relate to the originals (special line bred variation or something? Can't find much info) and while more expensive, they are supposed to be hardier, and grow faster (but I've also read that they really aren't that different). Extra bonus... being able to sex them young since only one sex is striped... if you want to breed them this is very handy so you can keep a few and get the sex ratio you want. Mulberry Farms (the original place to sell silks for Chams I believe) says they are a hardier strain than the typical chinese strain... dunno, but something to think about. Just the sexing would make life easier.


Cool, thanks!


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