# Is it ok to breed Turquoise & Bronze auratus with Green/Blue & Bronze?



## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

Is it true that Turquoise & Bronze auratus can be bred with Green or Blue (or super blue) & Bronze auratus? I just got a proven male Turquoise & Bronze auratus and want to either find him a female or even a small breeding group. Are they all from the same import?

Thanks ahead of time for the assistance. I want to make sure of this before I get anything.

Thanks!

Andy


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

aahhh NO!!!


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

Julio said:


> aahhh NO!!!


So only with Turqoise & Bronze? that was what I thought, but then someone told me they were from the same importation. So then i was wondering if they were kind of like basti pumilios w/ regard to coloring. Does anyone know of anyone who breeds the turquoise and bronze?


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## Jason (Oct 14, 2004)

I don't know either way, but you will find this thread interesting.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/32893-ms-turquoise-bronze-pn-green-bronze.html


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I remember reading that turquoise and bronze thread originally, but I can't remember how much was discussed with the turquoise. Seems like it kinda talked about variations within froglets from parents.


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

I don't think it has anything to do with the importation number or group. All to do with their original locale data. If there are groups of bronze auratus' located sporadically throughout different groups of auratus such as blues or greens then it is likely that you could breed them because chances are in the wild that they do anyways. If the bronzes are located in their own SEPARATE location then they are a separate group.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

these animals are a different color because they come from distinctly different population and come from different locality, so why crossbreed them in captivity?


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

If they are from different locations, then i completely agree w/ Julio...But, is that why their coloring is different or is it just a matter of the geneology (is that a word??) that dictates the color (such as in bastis or w/ the leucs)?

This is very confusing!

Andy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I remember in that other thread it was discussed that bronze auratus will throw out both blue and green offspring within the same clutch. I am not sure of the location info of yours and the super blues though. If they are from the same location then I would assume that they are a variation within the same morph based on the other bronze thread.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

taht is not always the case, maybe 1 out of 25 offsprings will turn out to be a alightly different coloration then the norm, but that is not a reason to cross breed morphs in the hobby! these are animals are becoming rare in nature and is up to us the hobbyist to preserve true morphs in captivity, hence the reason why they go by different names, they are from distinct populations.


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

I completely agree that if they don't breed in nature, then as hobbyists we should follow that. Ok, so does anyone have any idea where i might find some of the T & B's??

Thanks!

Andy


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Julio, nobody in this thread has advocated cross breeding morphs. It has been stated by both Andy and myself that we would not mix if they were from different populations. Andy had a legitimate reason for asking just based off the variation discussed in the other bronze auratus thread and I don't believe his intent was to crossbreed morphs.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i am just making a statement, sorry if it came accross a little harsh!


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

yeah I think the confusion is if you don't know the location or line data of a (insert shade of green) and bronze, then how can you know which frog to pair it up with. I suppose that problem is applicable to many other frogs, but if you have a turquise and bronze, but it's actually just a bluish green and bronze, unless the person you bought the first frog tells you, you wouldn't know if it should be paired with a T&B or a G&B... that other thread only made it more confusing to me, seeming like certain people said it didn't matter if it was not called a super blue, highland, or specific other locale, that you can put any color and bronze together because the first frogs line is unknown so you just buy another unknown something and bronze?


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Also, keep in mind: we don't _know_ where these frogs came from, where they were collected, if they were from a single contiguous population or multiple isolated populations in a general region, etc. We're working with nothing but appearance. It makes me nervous that frogs are sorted out and like frogs are placed with like frogs and sold as a morph or line as this could result in detrimental line breeding which results in loss of genetic and phenotypic variation. However, we could also be dealing with slight nuances between isolated populations that are being dissolved because we're breeding animals from different groups together that, in the wild, wouldn't be found together. The knife cuts both ways.

The truth is, we don't know. At this point in time we have no clue where these frogs came from and, in all honesty, will probably never know.

The "bronze" form of auratus in general throws a lot of question marks up in my mind (especially when so many produce such variable offspring), and I really wonder if we're not dealing with a rather widespread and extremely variable population...but who knows how many have been isolated between ridges and folds of the Cordillera Central, and if so, if any of the "X bronze" auratus we have are from any of these pocket populations. 

So we have to proceed carefully: acquire information about the frogs you purchase/keep. Ask about history and lineage and origin. Know what actually goes on in the collection>export/import>vendor cycle. There may be times when we have to keep frogs seperate, but there may also be times when we have to lump them together...and we need as much information as possible to make properly informed decisions regarding their care and management.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

andyoconnor83 said:


> ...that other thread only made it more confusing to me, seeming like certain people said it didn't matter if it was not called a super blue, highland, or specific other locale, that you can put any color and bronze together because the first frogs line is unknown so you just buy another unknown something and bronze?


This would not be a wise thing to do as we do know the origins of at least one of these types of bronze auratus.

I can't speak to the standard "green/turq/blue and bronze" morphs as I haven't researched or kept those varieties. As far as I know, they have come in as shipments, and as often happens, were sorted out based purely on visual appearance and similarities (there was no locale data for them).

The "Super Blue" auratus came in with another similar shipment, and out of a few hundred frogs, there were about a dozen or so that were very similar in pattern/appearance. These were singled out from the other frogs in the shipment and created the founding stock of this morph. Whether or not they were standard variation or a unique population...we don't know, because there was no locale data for this shipment, either. Also, these shipments could very likely include frogs that were collected over a rather broad range of regions and locales, and are then combined and boxed up together by the collectors for export.

The "Highland Bronze" or, as they're called in Europe, "Birkhahn" auratus were first collected by Holger Birkhahn in 1986 ("highland" is a bit of a misnomer as nearly all bronze morphs of auratus tend to inhabit higher elevations). He collected 8 frogs and kept the locale a secret (giving it a coded identity, similar to killifish breeders) to prevent further smuggling. These 8 frogs were seperated into two breeding groups, one kept by Birkhahn and the other by a name named Wassmann. Over the years the two would switch out and swap frogs in their groups to increase genetic diversity and variation. In the late 1990's Sean Stewart imported some frogs of this morph from a hobbyist in Germany. As far as I know, all frogs of this morph in the US hobby originated from the frogs Sean imported. So, these should not be bred with any other type of bronze auratus as we have specific info regarding their origins and lineage.


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## andyoconnor83 (Oct 6, 2008)

thank you, that does clarify a good bit of question for me.


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

My Turquoise and Bronze was originally acquired from Mike Schrom and I have no idea how to contact him. Also, I never thought Julio was being rude at all. As a mater of fact I know him and he is really one of the nicest and most helpful people is this hobby!!! 

for the record though, I'm still confused!

Andy


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I have some T&B Auratus from Mike Shrom. I see Mike at every Hamburg show and he goes to all the MD show too, I believe.

Which leads me to my next question and apologies to twisting the thread a little but...

Does anyone have a contact info, email, cell or other for Mike GRAHAM?
you can LMK privately and/ or anonymously as well.

He is in Philly or thereabouts.

If I don't get a response here, I'll start another thread soon......my contacting him does have something to do with the T&B Auratus.

Thanks,

Phil
[email protected]


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Julio said:


> i am just making a statement, sorry if it came accross a little harsh!


I didn't think you came off harsh at all. I just wasn't sure that you understood that the topic was made with the intention of not crossbreeding morphs. I'm sure I came off harsh as well.


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## asch803 (Nov 10, 2007)

Philsuma, do you possibly have any contact info for Mike Schrom? You don't have any females you might be willing to sell or trade by any chance, do you?

Thanks!

Andy


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Andy,

I wish I had an extra female for you but I am loathe to break up an otherwise successful breeding group. The females get along great with each other and both lay eggs constantly.

I would be willing to sell an extra calling male....but that won't help you I guess. I could trade you some tads but even that may take a while as I just sold a dozen in the past month and egg laying has slowed considerably...will all my tincs actually.

Mike SHROM is located in Ephrata PA...but I can already tell you he does not have any more T&B Auratus...in fact, he got out of PDF altogether and only breeds newts...of which he has like a dozen different cool species. That's my next breeding project.

Good luck and keep checking back with me for tads if you like....

Phil


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Green & Bronze or Turquoise & Bronze?

Don't look at the name of the image either.










This is actually a male Green & Bronze that throws both colors. Probably because his coloring is somewhere in the middle. Lighting also effects the coloring.

For what it's worth, these are from the group (2.1) the WC parents of the frogs Brian's Tropicals have thrown albinos. He is the only one who has gotten the offspring to produce them.


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