# Sticky  So you've made a vivarium...are you ready for dart frogs?



## Harpspiel




----------



## Harpspiel

I made this handy flow chart after watching lots of new threads with similar questions recently, and repeating some of the info myself. Unfortunately, lots of people build a vivarium that looks great...and then find out that it doesn't quite match the requirements of the future inhabitants. I'm all for non-dart frog vivariums and paludariums (hopefully that comes across, since I don't actually keep dart frogs myself), but I'm also all for treating little critters in our care as well as we possibly can. Hope you find this amusing and informative!


----------



## Encyclia

This is great information, Ariel! Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

Mark


----------



## FroggerFrog

Next time I do a tank, I am definitely keeping this in mind!






(I like how it says “is your heart set on dart frogs?” and then you say yes and it literally says no.)


----------



## FroggerFrog

I actually added this to my photos so I don’t forget. I mean it’s literally pinned but still, valuable information.


----------



## CharlieN

Thanks for this its definitely a good idea and worth saving. I have started my build and the one thing i was wondering was if i had enough ventilation. Going to rethink what my ventilation plan was. So if you don't keep DF what do you keep?


----------



## Chris S

This is the best part (Yes--->No.). Makes me laugh!

Awesome chart!


----------



## Lovelyk

I have to say, Imfollowed the Josh’s frogs build tutorial and they tell people to put a full spaghnum layer below the leaf litter. ( I’ve since realized several issues with theirs). Is any amount of spaghnum for retaining moisture in the substrate okay (like near edges, plants)?


----------



## Fahad

Lovelyk said:


> I have to say, Imfollowed the Josh’s frogs build tutorial and they tell people to put a full spaghnum layer below the leaf litter. ( I’ve since realized several issues with theirs). Is any amount of spaghnum for retaining moisture in the substrate okay (like near edges, plants)?


While I guess it may depend on the plants you're growing, I'm just not convinced it's usually necessary. I haven't used it since a decade ago and haven't seen any appreciable difference. I don't use soil of any kind anymore, just fired clay with leaf litter. Not much fired clay either.


----------



## Harpspiel

Lovelyk said:


> I have to say, Imfollowed the Josh’s frogs build tutorial and they tell people to put a full spaghnum layer below the leaf litter. ( I’ve since realized several issues with theirs). Is any amount of spaghnum for retaining moisture in the substrate okay (like near edges, plants)?


Long fiber sphagnum is an ingredient in ABG mix, I assume to aid in consistent moisture retention throughout the mix. However I have personally found with automated misting systems that the issue is too much moisture in the substrate, not too little. LFS is great up in the air to keep epiphytic roots moist, but I wouldn't recommend large pockets or layers of it in the substrate.


----------



## Harpspiel

CharlieN said:


> Thanks for this its definitely a good idea and worth saving. I have started my build and the one thing i was wondering was if i had enough ventilation. Going to rethink what my ventilation plan was. So if you don't keep DF what do you keep?


I have a paludarium with currently 110 different species of plants (mostly orchids), a handful of cherry shrimp, and a nerite snail.


----------



## Lovelyk

Harpspiel said:


> Long fiber sphagnum is an ingredient in ABG mix, I assume to aid in consistent moisture retention throughout the mix. However I have personally found with automated misting systems that the issue is too much moisture in the substrate, not too little. LFS is great up in the air to keep epiphytic roots moist, but I wouldn't recommend large pockets or layers of it in the substrate.


I don’t have an automated misting system, just hand misting. But yeah, I do have ABG with spaghnum bits. I did have some spaghnum around my epiphyte roots, but it seemed to moist...kind of rotted a neoregelia. So probably not all that necessary for moisture retention, in any case.


----------



## kkylerush

Do you possibly have more info on good air flow whether its your opinion or an article? I'm semi new to dart frogs, so I know enough to keep them happy and healthy but I've been trying to find very good and knowledge info on the best flow for your dart frogs. I seem many people that say you should be covering all the open areas on tanks such as exo Terras with glass (Which I understand to keep a higher humidity) but then don't really mention anything on good air flow.


----------



## Harpspiel

kkylerush said:


> Do you possibly have more info on good air flow whether its your opinion or an article? I'm semi new to dart frogs, so I know enough to keep them happy and healthy but I've been trying to find very good and knowledge info on the best flow for your dart frogs. I seem many people that say you should be covering all the open areas on tanks such as exo Terras with glass (Which I understand to keep a higher humidity) but then don't really mention anything on good air flow.


As the flow chart states, you should have a strip of ventilation (screen) at least 1.5" deep that runs the entire width of the tank. It's ideal to be able to adjust the depth until you find the amount that works for you - I would suggest plastic wrap before you get glass cut to the right size, other people might have other suggestions for an adjustable gap.

If you have an InSitu or Exo Terra tank, both have some amount of built in air circulation. InSitus have built in fans, and Exo Terras just have that passive ventilation from the bottom front vents. If you have the gap in the top back of an Exo Terra tank, you should be getting a small passive air current that goes diagonally through your tank, and you _may_ not need a circulation fan. If you have an aquarium-style tank, you will definitely need a circulation fan, and ideally you can experiment with placement and schedule before you put frogs in the tank by monitoring plant health. Mold growing on plants means too little ventilation and/or circulation. It's a balancing act - you want plants to get wet when you mist them, and then mostly dry off before they are misted again. Once frogs are introduced, you want some relatively dry spots that they can climb to, because they are prone to foot rot.


----------



## KWITT

I have to say I am very surprised that you suggest anything less than 18x18x24 is too small for these tiny creatures.


----------



## Chris S

Harpspiel said:


> If you have an InSitu or Exo Terra tank, both have some amount of built in air circulation. InSitus have built in fans, and Exo Terras just have that passive ventilation from the bottom front vents. If you have the gap in the top back of an Exo Terra tank, you should be getting a small passive air current that goes diagonally through your tank, and you _may_ not need a circulation fan.


To be more accurate here, the higher end model In Situ (Amazonia) is the only one that comes with internal circulation fans.

I would also maybe add here that internal air circulation isn't 100% necessary to keep frogs, at least in my experience. I don't have anything beyond passive air circulation in any of my tanks (I do run fans over top my tanks when needed), and I don't think there are any huge issues in terms of husbandry for the frogs. It might be ideal, but ideal and necessary are not always the same thing.


----------



## Harpspiel

Chris S said:


> To be more accurate here, the higher end model In Situ (Amazonia) is the only one that comes with internal circulation fans.
> 
> I would also maybe add here that internal air circulation isn't 100% necessary to keep frogs, at least in my experience. I don't have anything beyond passive air circulation in any of my tanks (I do run fans over top my tanks when needed), and I don't think there are any huge issues in terms of husbandry for the frogs. It might be ideal, but ideal and necessary are not always the same thing.


What type of tanks do you have? Passive circulation caused by well-placed vents is still circulation.


----------



## fishingguy12345

Not a single one of my tanks has any fan or other mechanical air circulation, only passive ventilation.


----------



## fishingguy12345

KWITT said:


> I have to say I am very surprised that you suggest anything less than 18x18x24 is too small for these tiny creatures.


Tiny is relative. 

Dart frogs will use every square inch of space that they can, saying "this is a small frog, it only needs a 12" square footprint" isn't an ideal approach to caring for these creatures. The more space they have the more comfortable they'll be, the more temperature and humidity gradient you can achieve.


----------



## geginn64

I have a pump mister (no frogs yet until April). My humidity hovers from mid to low 80s to 100+. If the humidity gets a little on the lower numbers I have a fogger to give the tank a little boost from time to time. the water I use is distilled water.
I have leaf litter, but could use more. I also have nice patches of moss. According to the chart it states; "get rid of it replace with leaf litter." So with that I guess it can be move off the floor for additional LL?
Sphagnum moss – I use it to wrap around the roots of my orchids and broms as they are not planted in the substrate. There is Sphagnum mixed in the substrate too.
Fans – I have 2. One the left and right sides of the viv. 
The top has drilled holes ⅛ to ¼ (I cannot remember which bit I used) then covered with fine mesh screen. 

If there is anything further I should do, or not do please let me know. I am here to learn so I don't fail my future forgs.


Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Chris S

Harpspiel said:


> What type of tanks do you have? Passive circulation caused by well-placed vents is still circulation.


Yes, sorry, my wording did not come across not as intended. It was meant more to say I do not use any internal circulation fans, but your graph sort of implies you need them.

I use a myriad of different tanks...Exo Terra, In Situ, 10G/15G/20G aquariums, custom builds, etc.


----------



## Harpspiel

Chris S said:


> Yes, sorry, my wording did not come across not as intended. It was meant more to say I do not use any internal circulation fans, but your graph sort of implies you need them.
> 
> I use a myriad of different tanks...Exo Terra, In Situ, 10G/15G/20G aquariums, custom builds, etc.


If you follow the flow chart, it actually skips the “fan” step and goes straight to a ventilation strip if you have an Exo Terra or InSitu.


----------



## Chris S

Harpspiel said:


> If you follow the flow chart, it actually skips the “fan” step and goes straight to a ventilation strip if you have an Exo Terra or InSitu.


Yes, but why would other types of setups need an active internal circulation fan, but those do not? Not trying to be nitpicky, but that was how I interpreted it.


----------



## Kribensis

KWITT said:


> I have to say I am very surprised that you suggest anything less than 18x18x24 is too small for these tiny creatures.


They may be tiny, but they’re very active. Any space you give them will be used. Imagine how much space they would have in their natural habitat, compared to a little box.

Some people are surprised to see their terrestrial frogs like _P. terribilis_ climbing. In reality, these frogs do climb. They live within a few feet of the ground, meaning they’re terrestrial, but even a few feet is considered high up for a vivarium.

I’m currently using an 18x18x24 to grow out a couple baby terribs, but it feels far too small. I 100% plan to upgrade them, along with my adults, to a far larger tank when they grow up & when I can afford it.

Even _Ranitomeya_ require plenty of space. I don’t personally keep them, but my friend has a few types. I’ve watched them quite a bit, and though shy, they seem very active. They truly do utilize every inch of space.

So yes, I would say that 18x18x24 is the minimum size in which frogs should be kept. They may seem too small to utilize all of the area provided to them, but they truly do.


----------



## Harpspiel

Chris S said:


> Yes, but why would other types of setups need an active internal circulation fan, but those do not? Not trying to be nitpicky, but that was how I interpreted it.


Because those are the most popular/accessible tank brands that have a built in passive circulation system, with vents on the bottom of the doors and on the top, so that hot air will naturally rise out of the top and pull cooler air in through the door vents, creating air movement. Sure, someone could build a custom tank that had the same built-in ventilation, but at that point that person knows what they are doing and really doesn't need this flow chart.

Aquariums only have 1 wall available for any sort of ventilation, and if it's placed so the opening is on top rather than in front, hot air will still rise out of the top of the tank, but there's nowhere lower in the tank to draw in cooler air, so it really won't create any air eddies or currents moving through the whole tank. Conversion kits where the "top" of the aquarium becomes the front may have slightly better passive air circulation, but it's still only along one wall and not through the tank. I will hazard that _most_ people, in _most_ conditions, when repurposing an aquarium to use as a tank, will need a circulation fan in order to grow _most_ plants that are associated with keeping dart frogs.

Personally, I have circulation fans in both of my Exo Terra tanks, because I grow a whole lot of fussy plants that hate water on their leaves (Begonias, _Pleurothallis tripterantha_ for some reason), and the best way to get water droplets off of leaves after misting is with a stiff breeze. But I don't necessarily recommend this to dart frog people, just be aware that with some plants water droplets = bad, whereas with frogs usually water droplets = good (as long as they also have somewhere drier to go).


----------



## Chris S

Harpspiel said:


> I will hazard that _most_ people, in _most_ conditions, when repurposing an aquarium to use as a tank, will need a circulation fan in order to grow _most_ plants that are associated with keeping dart frogs.


I don't disagree that the above can be beneficial, but the lack of a circulation fan doesn't necessarily rule it out as an appropriate setup for Dendrobatinae, and there is certainly nothing limiting the creation of passive ventilation on a converted aquarium. I think the need for an active fan is not really a requirement in any scenario, given proper ventilation is in place and humidity levels are within safe ranges. They can be added to supplement as warranted and/or required. 

The passive ventilation aspect is really the most important, and often something that can't be corrected after adding residents.


----------



## Encyclia

@Chris S, you make some great points, but you have to remember that this is the beginner sub-forum and the advice has to pitch to the lowest common denominator. I think Ariel is right that most folks that use a fish tank are not doing anything fancy with it (vertical conversion, holes drilled for ventilation, for instance). That being said, most beginners using a fish tank as a frog tank will struggle with ventilation in the absence of a fan. That's true of the only remaining simple fish tank conversion in my collection, for sure.

Mark


----------



## Harpspiel

GEG64 said:


> I have a pump mister (no frogs yet until April). My humidity hovers from mid to low 80s to 100+. If the humidity gets a little on the lower numbers I have a fogger to give the tank a little boost from time to time. the water I use is distilled water.
> I have leaf litter, but could use more. I also have nice patches of moss. According to the chart it states; "get rid of it replace with leaf litter." So with that I guess it can be move off the floor for additional LL?
> Sphagnum moss – I use it to wrap around the roots of my orchids and broms as they are not planted in the substrate. There is Sphagnum mixed in the substrate too.
> Fans – I have 2. One the left and right sides of the viv.
> The top has drilled holes ⅛ to ¼ (I cannot remember which bit I used) then covered with fine mesh screen.
> 
> If there is anything further I should do, or not do please let me know. I am here to learn so I don't fail my future forgs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


With your humidity that high, just keep an eye on things for rot. I don't think that you'll have dry patches on branches with humidity in the 80s, but it also depends on where you're measuring humidity, because it definitely does stratify from bottom to top of your tank. If you have some branches that visually appear dry and your plants aren't covered in fungus/mold/rotting away, you're probably fine.

Someone else will have to answer about ratio of moss to leaf litter. Some amount of moss on the substrate might be OK, I just keep seeing posts that more leaf litter = better.


----------



## Ookami

Great flow chart (reminds me a bit too much of work 😄!!)!! and i'm glad to see that with all the stuff I ordered, have already or plan to setup, I will hopefully get through to "I'll be ready for dart frogs". But that's thanks to the amazing info you, froggers, share here and in other places. And good I'm taking my time to get ready. As my girlfriend said, it will be a long awaited 2021 Christmas gift considering all the preparation and cycling of the vivarium, reservation at tadpole stage, etc !


----------



## Robru

The main disadvantage of using a fan in a tank compared to passive ventilation is that the fan can break down 

If you do good research on how to place the fans in the correct way and location, and ensure that fresh air can flow in through the ventilation grilles in the hood, you will see and measure that using a tank has few disadvantages compared to an exo terra viv or something similar.


----------



## geginn64

Harpspiel said:


> With your humidity that high, just keep an eye on things for rot. I don't think that you'll have dry patches on branches with humidity in the 80s, but it also depends on where you're measuring humidity, because it definitely does stratify from bottom to top of your tank. If you have some branches that visually appear dry and your plants aren't covered in fungus/mold/rotting away, you're probably fine.
> 
> Someone else will have to answer about ratio of moss to leaf litter. Some amount of moss on the substrate might be OK, I just keep seeing posts that more leaf litter = better.


Thank you Harpspiel for your feedback. 
I've been letting it dry out bringing the humidity to the high 70s. I have a few dry spots as of now for a frog to dry off.
I set April as the month to introduce frogs or until I get a plentiful supply of flies stocked. But, i will wait until I get things leveled out before getting frogs. 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------



## E man

I feel a fan I’d beneficial but not required to raising healthy dart frogs


----------



## geginn64

E man said:


> I feel a fan I’d beneficial but not required to raising healthy dart frogs


I have 2 fans, one on the left side and one on the right side. I went to Lowe's last night and got 2 soffit vents for ventilation. The vents have a mesh screen backing. I'll start with one vent, it's 6" x 4".

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


----------



## Khazixstann

How does one obtain and apply a ventilation strip?


----------



## CharlieN

Khazixstann said:


> How does one obtain and apply a ventilation strip?


Check out this thread








Screen vent construction how to


A little guide on how I construct the screens for my Vivs. I've been building screens professionally for 20 years now but I find these tiny little things to be more time consuming and more difficult than the full size house screens I build! Still, if you can manage a hack saw, you can build a...




www.dendroboard.com


----------



## eMCRay

If you want something circular (easy to cut into glass), I can also recommend a PC fan grill (like these ModRight FilterRight 80mm Clear Aluminum Fan Filter - FrozenCPU.com)


----------



## Chris S

eMCRay said:


> If you want something circular (easy to cut into glass), I can also recommend a PC fan grill (like these ModRight FilterRight 80mm Clear Aluminum Fan Filter - FrozenCPU.com)


Do you use these? Can you show them in action if you do?


----------



## eMCRay

Chris S said:


> Do you use these? Can you show them in action if you do?


Of course I do - wouldn't recommend them otherwise.

Here it is attached to a fan (I sealed up some of the extra gaps with silicone to avoid thumbs getting any stupid ideas or dirt / FFs making it in). Works great - and in many cases have been running for a few years. They obviously last longer if you seal them up like this to avoid dirt or feeders clogging them up (but I can still take them out and swap them if I needed to).

















Here is the same assembly in a thumb viv. I attach it to the top beneath a cut-out / vent so it can circulate a nice balance of outside and inside air. So 4 total of these filters for one viv - two on each side of the fan assembly, one on the outside of each vent (I use two). The huge benefit of this is that I can manually control how much outside air is taken in by partially covering up the vent.

This is the "intake" / re-circulation (sometimes the frogs even climb all over it if its more humid...).










Here is the outflow.










It's also available in different sizes - here is a 20 or 25cm version in one of my larger builds (with geckos, hence the bamboo).


----------



## Chris S

eMCRay said:


> Of course I do - wouldn't recommend them otherwise.
> 
> Here it is attached to a fan (I sealed up some of the extra gaps with silicone to avoid thumbs getting any stupid ideas or dirt / FFs making it in). Works great - and in many cases have been running for a few years. They obviously last longer if you seal them up like this to avoid dirt or feeders clogging them up (but I can still take them out and swap them if I needed to).
> 
> Here is the same assembly in a thumb viv. I attach it to the top beneath a cut-out / vent so it can circulate a nice balance of outside and inside air. So 4 total of these filters for one viv - two on each side of the fan assembly, one on the outside of each vent (I use two). The huge benefit of this is that I can manually control how much outside air is taken in by partially covering up the vent.


Interesting, thanks for sharing!


----------



## mikemakesapps

@eMCRay what direction do you have the fans pointing? Pulling outside air in, or vice versa?


----------



## eMCRay

mikemakesapps said:


> @eMCRay what direction do you have the fans pointing? Pulling outside air in, or vice versa?


Pointing inwards / down. Since there is about a half-inch gap between the fan and the top of the viv, it will recirculate a nice mix of viv and outside air - and I can then also cover up the vent from the outside to control it during the drier months.


----------



## Khazixstann

eMCRay said:


> Of course I do - wouldn't recommend them otherwise.
> 
> Here it is attached to a fan (I sealed up some of the extra gaps with silicone to avoid thumbs getting any stupid ideas or dirt / FFs making it in). Works great - and in many cases have been running for a few years. They obviously last longer if you seal them up like this to avoid dirt or feeders clogging them up (but I can still take them out and swap them if I needed to).
> 
> View attachment 298235
> View attachment 298236
> 
> 
> Here is the same assembly in a thumb viv. I attach it to the top beneath a cut-out / vent so it can circulate a nice balance of outside and inside air. So 4 total of these filters for one viv - two on each side of the fan assembly, one on the outside of each vent (I use two). The huge benefit of this is that I can manually control how much outside air is taken in by partially covering up the vent.
> 
> This is the "intake" / re-circulation (sometimes the frogs even climb all over it if its more humid...).
> 
> View attachment 298237
> 
> 
> Here is the outflow.
> 
> View attachment 298238
> 
> 
> It's also available in different sizes - here is a 20 or 25cm version in one of my larger builds (with geckos, hence the bamboo).
> 
> View attachment 298239


What fan is this? And for one tank do you need two different fans? I also have no clue how I would cut them into glass


----------



## eMCRay

Khazixstann said:


> What fan is this? And for one tank do you need two different fans? I also have no clue how I would cut them into glass


Just one fan on one side (to keep a nice diagonal airflow with some pockets of moving and some less-moving air). 

4 of the filters (2x for both sides of the fan and one each to close up the vents from the outside).
Fan I used Evercool 80mm x 10mm Fan (EC8010M12CA) - FrozenCPU.com (tried to keep a low profile) - you can adjust the size based on the size your viv; they can get quite large - I've used the 80mm, 120mm, 140mm and 200mm.
Filter: ModRight FilterRight 80mm Clear Aluminum Fan Filter - FrozenCPU.com

The picture I took is from a 1/4 inch custom acrylic build, so it's a bit easier to work with (and lighter) - my own design that I might post a design & build log on soon. Downside is that it scratches easier and can warp at high humidities if it's too thin / not reinforced properly.

You can cut glass (and I've done it too) with diamond hole saws (like 15-20 bucks at home depot or amazon). Here is a good tutorial (and wear leather gloves / eye protection):


----------



## BlueJohn

For some reason this part made me laugh so hard 😂


----------



## Alpine Amphibian

This is a wonderful flow chart for newbies! Thanks for this!


----------



## FloraLaura

Well done! The analyst in me loves an explanation via flow chart. I've been gathering information on this site for weeks, and this chart summarizes everything a newbie like me needs to know about creating a healthy environment. I wish I had noticed it at the beginning of my journey. It's a perfect launchpad.


----------



## Bannef

Thank you for this. I haven't started any sort of frog journey, more just frog considering, and this is really helpful.

I keep reading that these frogs are happier with horizontal space than vertical. Would a 24" wide x 18" deep x 18" wide be better for them, as a a result? Or do they seem content in an 18" wide x 18" deep by 24" tall space?


----------



## fishingguy12345

Bannef said:


> Thank you for this. I haven't started any sort of frog journey, more just frog considering, and this is really helpful.
> 
> I keep reading that these frogs are happier with horizontal space than vertical. Would a 24" wide x 18" deep x 18" wide be better for them, as a a result? Or do they seem content in an 18" wide x 18" deep by 24" tall space?


The answer is going to depend on the species of dart frogs.


----------



## FrogNewt

I'm late, but this is a neat chart!


----------



## Jos van hengel

Harpspiel said:


> View attachment 297493


haha thats great


----------



## kheckeroth

Cool chart  thanks for creating!


----------

