# Basti color genetics



## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I have done several searches and know that most folks here agree that it is OK (if not preferred) to mix colors of the "cemetery" population of bastimentos pumilio. 

My question is, does anyone have any results of mixing different colors. For example do Gold dust x orange produce all orange with the F1 offspring producing both gold dust and orange or does gold dust x orange produce a rainbow of fruit flavors?

I am guessing that orange is the dominant color based on the predominance of that color in the hobby, but OTOH they might just be the easiest to see/catch or viewed as the most desirable by the collectors.

So, anybody who has actually bred different colors together have any info on what color offspring were produced?

Thanks


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Parents:








Offspring:















There is now one in the process of coming ootw that looks exactly like his mother (red w/ small spots).


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

All colors from the cemetary locale can be mixed... Red Frog Beach & Salt Creek are the ones that should be kept separately.


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

I was under the impression, and Nabors stated to me that his and others research confirms that RFB and "Cemetary" are a contiguous population. 
I can understand the difference with Salt Creek because they are on opposite sides of the islands. Although, I don't know all the geographic details of the island to say for sure but there could be significant geographic barriers to have kept them separate. 
That being said I'm not sure if anyone in the hobby has true RFB's. I know of at least one person with Nabors "RFB's" and his throw both red and orange. From what I understand of the wild population and saw first hand RFB's are all bright red. Not all of them had white underbellies or feet though. 
This one had the white feet but up the road near the beach there was a kid holding one that was solid red. I didn't want to reward him for man handling the poor thing and didn't pay him for a picture.








This one is from the cemetary.








Who knows for sure though. If I knew for sure I had RFB's I personally wouldn't mix them. Maybe they're like the pepperi morphs and are certain color/pattern on one end of their range and change as you move further to the other end.


When I had my two original pairs of bastis, one pair was red and orange the other was white and orange. BOTH produced highly variable offspring. Whites, tans, oranges, and reds. Unfortunately I no longer have them and didn't know better at the time to hang on to them and see what else they produced. I have 4 more in the works, two of which are the "yellow". I plan to mix them according to sex ratios and see what they produce.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Jeff R said:


> I was under the impression, and Nabors stated to me that his and others research confirms that RFB and "Cemetary" are a contiguous population.


That's interesting, because Nabors's website says differently- 



> The Red Frog Beach population is a different population from the frogs which have been imported in the last five years, and should not be bred with these frogs.


Guess he hasn't updated it yet....


Edit- he also has them listed (and priced) differently. I'm not debating what he told you, just stating there's a slight difference between what he's telling you and what he has on his site for public viewing. I guess either the research was very recent or wasn't 100% conclusive, or it's a marketing thing.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

I hope JP won't mind me quoting him here, but this should help to clear it up-



MonarchzMan said:


> There are several populations of pumilio on Bastimentos, including Red Frog Beach, Salt Creek, and the Cemetery. There are some other populations as well, but I won't get into that for ease of explanation.
> 
> The only population that I know of that is polymorphic is the cemetery population. These frogs come from a relatively small region on the western part of the island. They actually occur right next to the town of Bastimentos, so I would guess that most of the individuals collected for import were from this polymorphic populations for no other reason than it was very easy to grab frogs that you only had to walk up some stairs to get to. The red frog beach population, based on my observations, breeds true to orange-red frogs with small spots. Unfortunately, there is overlap with the cemetery population, so unless they were described initially, the likely would be mixed into the cemetery population unknowingly.
> 
> The salt creek population actually is comprised of smaller individuals and they are on the eastern end of the island, so those should not be mixed with other Bastimentos populations. I guess at this point, if you get frogs from Bastimentos that are spotted and aren't specifically described as RFB, then I would assume that they're from the polymorphic cemetery population and okay to mix different colors.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Thanks for the info Jeff. Did your orange x red pair produce white, tan and yellow individuals as well or were they limited to shades of orange?

Teddy,
If we could keep this to the phenotypes of the offspring resulting from crossing the different colors of bastis I would appreciate it.
The Salt Creek vs. Cemetery vs. Red Frog beach populations has been covered pretty well in other threads already.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

phender said:


> Thanks for the info Jeff. Did your orange x red pair produce white, tan and yellow individuals as well or were they limited to shades of orange?
> 
> Teddy,
> If we could keep this to the phenotypes of the offspring resulting from crossing the different colors of bastis I would appreciate it.
> The Salt Creek vs. Cemetery vs. Red Frog beach populations has been covered pretty well in other threads already.


The last paragraph of the quote is one of the reasons I felt comfortable putting that here without straying too far off-topic, it answers your original question pretty directly... JP/MonarchzMan is well-known for his work with pumilio. Hope that helps.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

phender said:


> I have done several searches and know that most folks here agree that it is OK (if not preferred) to mix colors of the "cemetery" population of bastimentos pumilio.
> 
> My question is, does anyone have any results of mixing different colors. For example do Gold dust x orange produce all orange with the F1 offspring producing both gold dust and orange or does gold dust x orange produce a rainbow of fruit flavors?.........


I think you may have misread the OP. All of your posts are directed at whether or not the "cemetery" population can be mixed or not. I already know that it is OK to mix the different colors varieties found in the "cemetery" population.



tclipse said:


> The last paragraph of the quote is one of the reasons I felt comfortable putting that here without straying too far off-topic, it answers your original question pretty directly... JP/MonarchzMan is well-known for his work with pumilio. Hope that helps.


A nice quote, and one that I have already read, but it has nothing to do with my original question. I want to know what color offspring a Gold dust x orange basti will produce or if two orange bastis can produce gold dust, yellow, green or blue offspring or are they limited to shades of orange. I was hoping to hear from those with personal experience.

I do appreciate the effort.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Sorry Phil, fault, totally misread the original post's first sentence, I'm blind. Most have said that cemetery Basti's are very variable regardless of parental color, but I'll defer to those with personal experience until I get some froglets from mine 

Just to be clear, I wasn't taking a shot at you Jeff, hope you didn't take it that way.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

I don't really have any experience with these frogs, but in general from pictures that I've seen of parents and offspring I think that the color genetics of these frogs is based on incomplete/semi-dominance (probably at several loci).

So, if you cross Gold dust x orange, I would expect you to get offspring that can be anywhere from white to yellow to orange. I think it would be unlikely that you would get blue and green offspring in this scenario.

I a parallel could be drawn to human skin color, which is known to operate under incomplete dominance. If two people have kids, the children will most likely have some sort of intermediate skin, but not a skin color that is totally different than both the parents.


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## Lance (Sep 8, 2008)

Hmm another thought that came to mind while reading this was the *Recessive *genetics with in these frogs could possess. Just b/c you have a red daddy and a gold momma just going through your mind you could see orange, yellow, white, red for possible offspring colors, But what genetics do mom and dad have? 1 out of 25 offspring could produce a blue or even a green Pum. Just something to keep in mind all are frogs originally came from the wild one way or another so even to guess what genetics are frogs hold is impossible, you cant beat mother natures lil game.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

yeah there might be some other genetic factors at play, and it just might not be that simple. like, i think its known that two red parents can give yellow offspring.

its a hard call to make because these frogs dont give tons of offspring at a time (mendel had hundreds of peas to work with), so its hard to say anything with a lot if certainty. also i dont think that there are a lot of board members working with the blue and green bastis, so i think its generally unknown how they come into the mix


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

phender said:


> Thanks for the info Jeff. Did your orange x red pair produce white, tan and yellow individuals as well or were they limited to shades of orange?.


My orange/red pair produced tans, oranges and reds. My white/orange pair produced tan, oranges and off whites.

Talking about it makes me regret selling them off.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

I just returned from panama two weeks ago and while I was on the island of bastimentos i did encounter a pale almost gold dust looking individual in what I would consider the area of red frog beach. The location was on the trail between wizard beach and red frog beach.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'll be there next month. Looking forward to seeing them in person.


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