# Orange Banded Leucs



## Kempire (Sep 10, 2012)

Hey guys. I'm started this thread just because I really am confused and not to open a "can of worms". I have recently acquired some "orange banded leucs" as the breeder has told me. So I was trying to do some research, and the definition of a banded leuc says that if "has solid bands that are rarely broken up by spots". So, in the case of my frogs this is not true, they have many spots. Now I know the feeling of educated dart frog owners is not to cross breed morphs of the species, but how would I know if I just go by what the breeder says? In this case, I want to believe they are what I was told, and will make every effort not to "mix" and to be honest, I'm not planning on breeding, but this is just plain confusing to me. 










Rarely broken by spots?? Orange banded??


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Look up some pics of the banded leucs, these look different. Honestly, they just look like standard leucs to me, some have more orange than others. Anyone else care to elaborate...


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## Absolutbill (Aug 23, 2011)

I have three all with orange tinged, even though they were from very yellow frogs. I think it is from using good supplements? 


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## Kempire (Sep 10, 2012)

But that is exactly my point. Lets say I wanted to breed these, and I buy more orange banded from a different well known breeder. The result would undoubtedly be "orange banded" according to 2 very well known and reputable breeders. But in reality I would be mixing morphs, and that is a huge no-no according to most dart frog enthusiasts, correct?


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

most leucs in the hobby as i understand it were collected without locality data, and many have already been mixed and matched. Because of this, it can be pretty hard to tell which came from what population and to what degree of certainty it is in fact a true population. 

There is a fairly subtle and not well understood variation throughout their range as a species. There are definitely banded forms from Guyana, and the green foot population seems to be fairly distinct. Those may be part of the natural variation, or they may be distinct locales (and if they were, have they in fact really been treated as such?). Without actual data, nothing can be certain. Anyone please correct me if any of that is wrong


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## Kempire (Sep 10, 2012)

CJW said:


> most leucs in the hobby as i understand it were collected without locality data, and many have already been mixed and matched. Because of this, it can be pretty hard to tell which came from what population and to what degree of certainty it is in fact a true population.
> 
> There is a fairly subtle and not well understood variation throughout their range as a species. There are definitely banded forms from Guyana, and the green foot population seems to be fairly distinct. Those may be part of the natural variation, or they may be distinct locales (and if they were, have they in fact really been treated as such?).u Without actual data, nothing can be certain. Anyone please correct me if any of that is wrong


So, if that is the case, should I be free to breed these leucs with any other morph, and just call them leucs? Or should I only breed with "orange banded" and continue to taint the morph further? Again guys, I am not trying to stir the pot, I am just curious as I am very new to the hobby, but I see such very strong comments about keeping morphs, and locals separate, but I don't know how accurate it can be when there is such a HUGE margin of error.


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

Kempire said:


> So, if that is the case, should I be free to breed these leucs with any other morph, and just call them leucs? Or should I only breed with "orange banded" and continue to taint the morph further? Again guys, I am not trying to stir the pot, I am just curious as I am very new to the hobby, but I see such very strong comments about keeping morphs, and locals separate, but I don't know how accurate it can be when there is such a HUGE margin of error.


Well that's the tricky part, it's very dangerous to assume they're all the same, mostly because they might not be. I would keep the ones i had mentioned separate for sure, but as for the "orange banded", i believe that's going to fall into the mixed and matched category. Zach Brinks knows a ton about this species and their history, search for some of his posts on the subject. He can give you a more clear cut less headachy answer


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## CJW (Nov 14, 2011)

This would be why it is best to keep different localities separate and to play it safe on such issues, to avoid this very uncertainty


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

as far as I know they're a couple of accepted morphs; small-spot, banded, green foot, and standard. These morphs are not to be interbred. The rest might just be guess work as others have pointed out...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

^^ add blue foot and any year specific imports like 1996^^^

Orange banded...just banded leucs fed naturose or super pig


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

My bandeds have no spots.

Those look like standards as has been expressed above.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Where did you get them from?


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## Kempire (Sep 10, 2012)

joshbaker14t said:


> Where did you get them from?


I got them from a very well known and reputable breeder in canada. I also sent a follow up email to them to verify that they were "orange banded leucs". Now I don't care their bloodline, morph, etc, I think they are great, I am just using them for argument sake on " mixed breeding".

Mike


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

cbreon said:


> as far as I know they're a couple of accepted morphs; small-spot, banded, green foot, and standard. These morphs are not to be interbred. The rest might just be guess work as others have pointed out...


This is pretty correct, there were a few imports of Banded Luecs from Guyana during the 2000's, they were called the poor man's Lehmanni as many had solid yellow bands going across the body but there were also many with spots in the bands. They were a bit larger than standard Luecs but that pattern also did not cover a lot of the body as standards sometimes will do. There was also a standard looking morph that came out of Guyana as well that was larger than the Venezualen standard morph, Understory was working with those.
It is common practice to throw all the standards into the same group to be bred, though I am sure there are different localities of them the site data as far as I know was never available. All of the Bandeds should be bred with only Banded's as they are a locality specific morph, same with the Blue Foot, Green Foot and most would say same with the Fine Spot. Also anyone who has the Guyana Standard should keep them seperate as well.
It would be good if you posted pics of all 3 of your frogs, it would be easier to get a visual ID on them based on the variability, if all 3 look like the 1 in your picture they probably are the Guyana Banded morph.


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## Kempire (Sep 10, 2012)




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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

You cannot always judge a book by its cover. I would go by what the breeder has told you.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

I just got a Orange Galact that is yellow. It came from orange parents but I could pass it off as a yellow galact. Regardless, I will keep it with oranges.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I have never heard of an 'orange banded' leuc. I won't claim to be familiar with all the darts floating around in Canada, but I'd double check with your breeder and find out the past history of the line. As far as I know, there appear to be at least 4 phenotypically distinct leucomelas coming out of British Guyana. Based on what I've observed (breeding habits, physical traits, call differences, behavior, etc), I'd *assume* they were distinct populations. Here's what I'm currently working with from British Guyana:

'Guyana Yellow' leucomelas - these are from Mark Pepper of Understory Enterprises. They tend to be a bit larger than your standard/Venezuelan leucs, and a bit more shy.









'2009 Import' British Guyana leucomelas - I was able to get some F1s. They appear very similar to Venezuelan leucomelas (especially the old Kahn line, which was more or less the first line of leucs in the hobby), but the few animals I've seen have more, regular spotting and a less intense yellow.









British Guyana leucomelas - Josh of JoshsFrogs.com got some wild caught animals in 2006, and they have bred true (we've produced up through F3s so far). These start off about 50% black, and gain substantial amounts of black as they age, until they resemble giant summersi. These guys are pretty shy, and larger than the standard/Venezuelan leucomelas.









British Guyana Banded leucomelas - the poor man's lehmanni. By far the most striking of the British Guyana leucomelas, these guys were imported in the first half of the 2000s. The largest morph of leucomelas I've ever worked with, they are also the most shy. These tend to lay HUGE egg clutches (I've had up to 17 eggs in one clutch) compared to all the other leucs I work with.


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