# First Tank W/ Flevopol



## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

I used a 15gl tank for this project (24x12x12). I cut out the piece of vine I want to use and taped them in place. I then used black handi-foam to fill in the background. I must say; the black handi-foam is a lot easier to work with than greatstuff. Not only does it come out of the can more dense and uniformly, it dries in like 5min, which could be good or bad. Any by dry I mean the surface hardness to the point where it's not sticky any more and it's hard to mold. 



After around 18 hours, I carved out the excess foam and got rid of the foam bubbles. I then started to mix my first flevopol mixture. I used ACE Concrete Primer and Bonding Additive as the glue compound. The mixture consisted of 4parts peat, 4parts osmunda fiber, 3parts concrete primer, 1part water. After mixing and mashing this in a bucket for a few minutes, it reached the consistency of dough. I felt like I was making a cake. I then applied it as thin as I could on top of the handi-foam and pressed it. I then stood the tank up and directed a fan at it for the next ~18 hours.

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At this point the background was pretty much rock hard and I could barely press it in using a lot of force. The detail of the background came out very very nicely and I really like the texture or it also.





After this experience, I honestly think that I will not return to the silicone/greatstuff method. The flevopol method is much less messy, much faster and easier, much easier to work with, seems less toxic (less compounds involved and no fumes), and I think looks much better and more natural.

Luke


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

This is very very nice. I might give this a try here this weekend. Might you have any pics of the supplies you used to make the mixture? I know you listed them, but sometimes pictures help me locate them in the store.  

You have any pics of it mixed in the bucket before you put it in the viv?

I'm very impressed with this. Its so attractive to me b/c I can't stand the mess involved with spreading the dang silicone then pressing in background mixtures and the waiting and the smell and and and.....

Again, very nice. Can't wait to see it planted.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Thanks for posting your mixture ratios. I'm getting started on my 125 this weekend, and I'm planning on using the Flevopol method for a couple of the larger features.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Oh yeah, I also wanted to know where you got the osmunda fiber. As well as the amounts you used to cover that size viv. Was it pints, gallons or cups??


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

Ok, pics of the supplies.

Well the peat is actually peat moss. Got a huge bag of it at HD. It is very dusty and fine just like dry coco brick.





The osmunda fiber, I purchased at a local nursery. It is the same as tree fern bark. The one I purchased is grown and harvested in florida so it is not taken from the wild. Just break it up with your hands until it falls apart into little pieces. The original recipe for flevopol used 4parts of coco fiber instead of the tree fern, but I didn't feel like soaking a coco brick for several hours and thought the tree fern would look better.





I mixed the peat moss and tree fern fiber together and made sure it was mixed up before I put in the concrete primer.



Then just put on rubber gloves, pour in the glue, and start mashing away. It's kinda fun  At the end I put in the water because it wasn't sticky enough, and on the bottle it said to wet the surface before application, so I knew it wouldn't be bad if I added water. Keep mashing until it all sticks into a big ball. Then just apply. 

I jused cups as the parts; so 4c peat moss, 4c tree fern, 3c primer, and 1c water, and I ended up not using it all. I was left with about a softball size amount of the mixture, which i wrapped in a ziplock back and tried to get all the air out. 24 hours later it hasn't started to harden, so I think it can be stored like this for a bit.



The ratio of supplies I used I got from another board member, but his ratio did not include the water. After I mixed it up, it was still a bit to dry and brittle, so I ended up adding water, which of course shouldn't adversely affect a concrete binding additive. Anyway, it became a lot more mushy and sticky and applying it was really easy. I think adding the water also helped to decrease the amount of cracking once it dried. Now I can only see a few cracks and honestly they are so small that you wouldn't find them if you didn't look for them.

Luke


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## rzlinux (Feb 16, 2006)

I think it looks great. I will try this very soon.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2006)

How are you going to plant this? What plants will grow on the background?[/url]

EDIT: How much $ is the concrete primer and how large is the bottle?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Have “we all” decided that the ACE stuff is safe? Looks great, and easy but I’m afraid of toxicity issues.


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## jsagcincy (May 2, 2005)

Chris, 

I've used a similar product that I posted on the board in vivs for about 8 months now. I've had no problems with the health of my frogs and have successfully bred bastis and imitators in that environment. I'm not putting a "safe" stamp on it but this is my experience with it. 

Jeff


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Where does one get the ACE Concrete primer and bonding additive? Is it only available at ACE hardware stores? If so, are there acceptable substitutes, that are chemically similar/identical, but marketed under different names? Thanks!


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## Darks!de (Nov 16, 2004)

The concrete primer I bought came in a 1qt bottle and was around $10. There is a larger gallon bottle also though.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14487

Luke


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

have two things to say. While I bet its probably safe, keep in mind we used to think a lot of things are safe for humans but then we later found out they were toxic...but they were long term FX that couldn't be detected within a few months to a few years.

I believe many archaeologists that dug up remains from Pompei said the people had high amounts of lead in their bones from their cookware. 

Cocaine used to be in Coca Cola, Bestus used to be in our walls.

However, there are plenty of things as well that are said to be "known to cause cancer in laboratory animals" but the poor creatures are fed like a pound of it. Asia has higher rates of stomach cancer due to too much sodium even though it is an important element in the human body. (from lots of salted food items like salted/dried seafood) I am meaning to try it myself, but I'd like to hear more about it as I know very little about acrylics. What is the chemical makeup?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

In Sledder23’s coating for background thread, 
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=14169&start=0, Cory mentions that concrete primer is not good with constantly running water. Can anyone add to this? Will it stand up to heavy misting?


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

> Will it stand up to heavy misting?


From what I have read, it will. There are several folks that have used this mix for some time and it seems to stand up in at least the short term. Probably won't know more until it's been used for quite a bit longer.

I've also seen that it will not work in submersed, or constant water situations. I'm not sure if that's a problem with the bonding additive though as much as the peat, etc that is mixed in. From what I've been able to glean from the Dutch sites, this mix can/will expand a bit when wet, so I imagine that the peat is soaking up some water, and is causing the entire mass to expand. I would think that this expansion and contraction as water is soaked up and evaporates and/or drains would shorten the lifetime of the mix, but it appears to last for at least a few years as long as it is not submerged. The bonding additive is acrylic based, so should be fairly flexible to this action, but I'm sure it has it's limits. For this reason, I'm not sure I would use it for a back ground, except if used as Luke did where the black foam behind it wouldn't look as bad as standard GS showing through if some did come loose.

This is all from reading the experiences of others though, not my own, so maybe just my $.01.

Luke, keep up the good work! I'm still chasing you on that awesome 115. My 90g from GS.com is in the basement now, and the background is being made. Guess now I have more catching up to do... :wink:


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## neilr (Oct 9, 2004)

I have used this meathod on most of my tanks. I think it is the best for making backgrounds. There is also another brand that is more readily available that works: "quickcrete-concrete bonding additive". I also used tree fern fibre and peat, but also new zealand sphagnum and gravel. My tanks have been set up for about a year and a half now with no (obvious) bad effects. The backgrounds turn rock hard and do not break down in my experience. And plants grow very well on this. 

Here is a pic of one of my vivs using this meathod (I have posted this before, nothing new):


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Thanks for the reassurance neilr. Beautiful viv as well.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

It looks great, but I still would appreciate some information on acrylic. I know nothing about that stuff except plexiglass acrylic.

Unfortunately, I could only use it on my tinctorius vivarium as there is no running water. About the swelling problem, could potentially adding cocopeat as the last layer (assuming it could be the peat) solve this problem of expanding?

It sounds like this stuff is basically Weld Bond...just cheaper.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Acrylic by itself is non toxic to the best of my knowledge, but I'm sure that's not the only component of this stuff.

re: the similarity to weldbond, I'm no chemist, but it sure seems like you're right.

As far as waterproofing, I'm not sure coco peat would help, it might make it worse. I was wondering if a final coat of JUST the bonding additive might do the trick...? In any case, from what I've read on the Dutch sites re: flevopol and from the few folks in the US using the Ace stuff, it doesn't seem to matter so far.

I might try to figure out a test for just how "waterproof" it is. If so, I'll post in another thread to not further hijack Luke's.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

deja vu


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

BTW, I believe I read on Frognet an article submitted by Marcos (Blort). I am currently asking him now if it truly was him that made the reply, but the person did say that it generally is nontoxic (assuming ACE didn't add anything extra) and is biodegradable. Generally, things that are biodegradable are more likely not going to be toxic unless they interfere with pH, etc. Now, this is assuming it isn't going to be heated as silicone is very toxic when heated at high temperatures (but generally nothing to worry about).

If it was Marcos replying, I think I'm going to try it as that is the chemical information I was looking for. I sent an email to confirm it was him.

If its the cocopeat that is causing it to swell, perhaps its better to mix sand with it (which is what it originally was intended for other than concrete) and just use cocopeat as a top dressing.

I also believe now that latex is nontoxic (if you go to ACE's site, it says its latex based). Many dog toys are made from latex and I read on google that latex is generally nontoxic.

However, what about the Quikrete stuff?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Doug,

That is an email I posted to FrogNet. There is a follow up two about the difference between PVA and something else, even though I don't remember the specifics. I would recommend that book I referenced or something similar if you want more details about plastics.

Marcos


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Here's some more information.
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p5282.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_alcohol

The only possible things that could go wrong (but then again, I thought methyl alcohol can make you go blind and deaf?) are low hemoglobin contents and potential carcinogens, but other than that, it looks fairly safe.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Meoh can blind you if you get it in your eyes. They used to say drinking it would blind you, but we all know it will kill you first.

On subject: Keep us updated on things. I decided to hold off on using it myself and let you be the guinea pig. Haha.


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