# Acquiring Clay Substrate Materials?



## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

So I've finally decided to jump on the clay-based substrate bandwagon. I'm planning on using Matt's recipe. To all of the people who have found the materials locally: what stores can I acquire those specific materials? I live in Chicago so hopefully it's doable. I really don't want to pay the shipping charges if possible. The materials are listed below

Thanks.

kaolinite (EPK) 1100 56%
Bentonite (absorbent clay kitty litter) 550 28%
Fe Oxide red 70 4%
Fe Oxide Yellow 70 4%
Al oxide 60 3%
sugar 15 1%
cornstarch 15 1%
gelatin 10 1%
soy protein 10 1%
CaCO3 20 1%


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Really you need to find a pottery supply store, the stuff is really cheap but it weighs a lot


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

Thanks, Chris. Should the pottery store carry the calcium carbonate and aluminum oxide? I'm having a little trouble with those.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Calcium carbonate can be purchased from a lot of different sources.. such as nutrition stores You can even get it in bulk as a dusting supplement for reptiles as ground up shells etc.. 
Aluminum oxide can probably be most easily aquired from a custom paint mixing store as it used in manufacture of paints. 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

I got the aluminum oxide from the store with the other stuff, you can use old repcal or something for the calcium otherwise they usually know it as whiting in the store


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

Oh okay, whiting. Got it, thanks again. Still having trouble with the Al Oxide. My pottery supply store definitely doesn't have it (unless it's under some really obscure name). Any other places that I can get it besides a custom paint mixing place?


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Aluminum species like your aluminum oxide toxic to plants. Its because of its high concentration in kitty litter is why I haven’t jumped onto this “clay” bandwagon just yet. I'm waiting for a better option to become available than the kitty litter. If you want to use your Iron Oxides, no problem. They'll act as a fertilizer, but the Aluminum, is definitely something you DONT want to be adding into your tank. Its bad enough it will be in the kitty litter.

Aluminum toxicity in plants causes death in high concentrations and apical root meristem abnormalities. Both bad things. Especially since it’s a closed environment where it can't be washed away and the plants will be exposed to it continuously.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The compositions of the clays we are using are very very similar to the make up of the tropical oxisoils which also contain aluminum oxides in the same concentrations....


Ed


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Oh ok. Well I guess that makes my statements completely null and void. Since no pollution has ever washed into rainforest soils; that the plants found in those soils haven’t had to adapt to the Aluminum concentrations; and that were not talking about an enclosed system where soluble Aluminum species will remain until absorbed by one of your plants or animals.

But never mind all that. Please feel free to add a toxic metal species to your soil that has no benefit to the plants, animals, or soil properties.

Needless to say, I won't be adding it to my tanks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A couple of examples of growing in clay with AlO content..
The bromeliad (and there is a jewel orchid behind the bromelaid). Note the bromeliad roots that grew not only through the clay but a half inch air gap and into the water...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure why you think the aluminum is going to be free and able to affect the roots.. Al in these sorts of soils end up bound into the matrix as part of an ion exchange which frees other ions. 
See for example 
http://earth.geology.yale.edu/~ajs/1985/10.1985.01.Tardy.pdf

http://pdf.usaid.gov/pdf_docs/PNABK004.pdf

and if you really want to parse it out, you can contact Matt Mirabella as his graduate work was in this exact field studying the soils... 

Ed


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Your papers are great geology but miss the point on what I'm talking about and are not really relevant.

You’re talking about ion exchange properties and geological complexes and I'm talking about plant heavy metal toxicity. While the former does affect the latter, you’re still missing the point.

See in example here:
Molecular Physiology of Aluminum Toxicity and Tolerance in Plants
The Botanical Review 73(4): 326-347
SANJIB KUMAR PANDA and HIDEAKI MATSUMOTO

"Acid soils, present mostly in humid tropical and subtropical areas of the world, are characterized by having excess H-, Mn 2+, and Al3+, with deficiencies of Ca 2+, Mg 2+, and PO43- (Foy, 1984). Additionally, sulfur dioxide and other air pollutants cause acid soil stress in areas other than the tropics. In acidic soils, hydroxyl-rich aluminum compounds solubilize to an extent in the soil solution. Forty percent of the arable land globally is acidic because of solubilization of the abundantly present aluminum, greatly limiting crop productivity."

"The mechanism responsible for decreased cell division with root exposure to aluminum is uncertain. Aluminum can accumulate inside cells at the root tip within 30 minutes to several hours of exposure, and the intracellular aluminum then binds to cell nuclei and DNA (Matsumoto, 1991; Vasquez et al., 1999)."

Your second paper refers to the Aluminum as a possible means of causing error in the potentiometric titration method and while is nice evidence of it being in the soil, really doesn’t address the issue.
Yes in natural soils the Al can be bound with the Iron as your first paper shows but that’s only AFTER it has gone through a series of reactions all of which require it to be in a soluble form first, of which the silica, water, and iron concentrations must be right to fix all the Al. You’re not adding into your tank an already bound mineral, but a soluble one and hoping that you have the proper concentrations to fix it all before it can affect your organisms. Of which the amount of time required to fix this, is what? I didn't see that anywhere in the paper. On top of this, even if it is bound, it can still affect the plants as it can be unbound by the low pH of the soil, and low pH plant exudates secreted by the roots to free up ions from the soil, thereby making it available again. True it’s the plants fault in this case, but it is still going to be something that will harm it.

So again, I'm talking about reducing the stress on your vivarium plants by not adding in a toxic substance that the plant will have to fight against. There is no real reason to add this in. None. So yes you can do it and HOPE that you have the proper ratios and time to form your Al-Fe complexes, but if it takes a much lower amount of time to damage the plants than to form the complex, why bother? It’s not like forming this complex is important for any reason other than your hoping to achieve exact 1:1 of what is found in the rainforest, but again, the plant found there, will be either evolved to tolerate this stress, or will die when it’s become too much for them. And there is no guarantee that the plants your putting into your tank will be able to handle this Al toxicity, and even if they can, why do it? There is no benefit. You'll be reducing the fitness of your plants as they will have to use resources and energy to ward off this. 


So in summery:

Don't put the Aluminum Oxide in your soil. It’s not needed and will either kill or stress your plants. Even IF it’s bound and it’s an Aluminum tolerant plant. 

If you still don’t want to believe any of this, then go ahead, maybe nothing will happen. Perhaps the concentrations will be too low to damage anything or it will become permanently bound never to be unbound. But the simple fact is that there is no reason to add it, it’s hard to find, and is something you’ll have to buy. So why are we doing this? Seems to me like someone read a journal on rainforest soil properties once and said “oh that’s the ONLY way to make a good vivarium soil” and left critical thinking at home.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VivariumWorks said:


> If you still don’t want to believe any of this, then go ahead, maybe nothing will happen. Perhaps the concentrations will be too low to damage anything or it will become permanently bound never to be unbound. But the simple fact is that there is no reason to add it, it’s hard to find, and is something you’ll have to buy. So why are we doing this? Seems to me like someone read a journal on rainforest soil properties once and said “oh that’s the ONLY way to make a good vivarium soil” and left critical thinking at home.


I suggest you contact Matt Mirabella and discuss it with him as the properties and studies on the soils which we are discussing were his grad studies and thesis.. and one of the major originators of the recipes in use (including the addition of the aluminum)... He could easily answer the question. 



Ed


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

I understand what you're trying to say here, VivariumWorks, but you really should try to be more respectful. This is a forum, but that doesn't mean you can bash other people's work. Matt Mirabello really knows what he's talking about, he's studying solely tropical soils (as Ed said). In my opinion, we should try to replicate the natural environment as much as possible. You do not know that the AlO has no positive impact for a fact.

Plus, this soil is going into a vertical viv. There's probably only going to be leaf litter and one plant max down there.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

The oxides role is not entirely understood but they are associated with pseudosanding/microaggregation the oxides seem to interact with other soil cations (Ca, Mg, etc) and soil organic matter to help promote structure. The paradox of tropical soils is that the oxides in them should be leaching out from all the rain... but they don't so something is helping them stay in the soil. - Matt Mirabella


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

I'm not bashing anybody's work. I AM stating that from a plant biochemistry standpoint Al is not a good addition to the soil. Plain and simple.

Just because its found in nature doesn't automatically mean that its something you want to adding to an enclosed vivarium system. And unless adding it in greatly adds to the physical properties of your soil, enough to offset the plant issues, I don't agree with adding it. 

Mr. Mirabella (whom I am unfamiliar with) is more than welcome to comment on any of this at any time. And while I'm sure his work on this subject is quite detailed, I doubt he would disagree on the well documented phytotoxic effects of soluble Al.


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

VivariumWorks said:


> Aluminum species like your aluminum oxide toxic to plants. Its because of its high concentration in kitty litter is why I haven’t jumped onto this “clay” bandwagon just yet. I'm waiting for a better option to become available than the kitty litter. If you want to use your Iron Oxides, no problem. They'll act as a fertilizer, but the Aluminum, is definitely something you DONT want to be adding into your tank. Its bad enough it will be in the kitty litter.
> 
> Aluminum toxicity in plants causes death in high concentrations and apical root meristem abnormalities. Both bad things. Especially since it’s a closed environment where it can't be washed away and the plants will be exposed to it continuously.


I have to question part of this statement.

Yes, aluminum is toxic, but only if it becomes soluble, and Aluminum Oxide in it's self is not only not soluble but extremely stable and considered non-toxic ( the EPA took Al2O3 off of it's chemical list in 1988 ) - it is my understanding that even soluble forms of aluminum does not become biologically available until the pH drops down towards 5, something that I doubt that is going to happen in a normal viv.


Thought's?


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## Lycosa (Jul 13, 2010)

If any of you are old planted aquarium keepers, you can make calcium carbonate by making a saturated solution of Kalkwasser or Calcium Hydroxide or Pickling Lime (available at Walmart) and running an airstone in it with CO2.. you can use atmospheric air, but it'll take a lot longer.

The CO2 reacts with the calcium hydroxide and precipitates calcium carbonate out of the water. Running a regular airstone without CO2 works also, but takes a lot longer. When the water clears, on the bottom of the container you have calcium carbonate. 

I'm just offering this bit of advice if you want to add it but are finding it difficult to get. Pickling lime is easy to get and the work involved isn't all that difficult, just takes a while.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Lycosa said:


> If any of you are old planted aquarium keepers, you can make calcium carbonate by making a saturated solution of Kalkwasser or Calcium Hydroxide or Pickling Lime (available at Walmart) and running an airstone in it with CO2.. you can use atmospheric air, but it'll take a lot longer.
> 
> The CO2 reacts with the calcium hydroxide and precipitates calcium carbonate out of the water. Running a regular airstone without CO2 works also, but takes a lot longer. When the water clears, on the bottom of the container you have calcium carbonate.
> 
> I'm just offering this bit of advice if you want to add it but are finding it difficult to get. Pickling lime is easy to get and the work involved isn't all that difficult, just takes a while.


Considering it's "us" who is looking for the ingredients, it would probably be easier just to use a spoonful of RepCal since that's about all you'll need (and its age doesn't matter, the calcium stays good - it's the D3 that degrades so it can be an old jar of RepCal). I only used RepCal for the calcium in the recipe so far.


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## Lycosa (Jul 13, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Considering it's "us" who is looking for the ingredients, it would probably be easier just to use a spoonful of RepCal since that's about all you'll need (and its age doesn't matter, the calcium stays good - it's the D3 that degrades so it can be an old jar of RepCal). I only used RepCal for the calcium in the recipe so far.


Ya, I know it's a bit extreme.. but who knows, maybe someone will want to do it just for the sheer experience of it all. lol The only reason it came to mind is that I have a large jar of Kalk from when I kept reef tanks and I used it to make CaCO3 for a planted tank since I had it on hand. 

I buy dry chemicals and mix my own rather than use commercially available ferts.. I just find it cheaper and I know exactly what's going in my tanks.

Just wondering, wouldn't CaNO3 work as a good (maybe better) substitute? I'm asking because it's quite easy to get for $2.50 a pound.


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## costaricalvr12 (Oct 5, 2006)

I got 1lb of Calcium Carbonate for $1.25...


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Correct the pH of the soil does play a factor as the availablility of the most toxic forms of Aluminum. But it can become soluble, especially when the organic acids from your bacteria and plant root exudates are concerned.

To again quote the review listed above:

"Aluminum chemistry is quite complex. It has a high ionic charge and a small crystalline
radius, which give it a level of reactivity that is unmatched by other soluble metals.
When the pH of a solution is raised above 4.0, A13+ forms the mononuclear species
AIOH 2+, AI(OH)2 +, AI(OH) 3, and AI(OH)4+, and soluble complexes with inorganic ligands
such as sulfate and fluoride, that is, A1F -'+, AIF 3+, AI(SO)4 +, and also with a host of organic
compounds. Larger polynuclear hydroxyl aluminum species also form as metastable intermediates
during AI(OH) 3 precipitation. The mononuclear A1 3+ species seems to be
most toxic at low pH, at which it exists as an octahedral hexahydrate. With increasing
pH, AI(H20)3+ 6 undergoes repeated deprotonations to form insoluble AI(OH)3 at pH 7.0.
At cytosolic pH, 7.4, AI(OH)~-, that is, aluminate ion, is formed. In near neutral solutions,
polynuclear forms of aluminum, which contain more than one aluminum atom,
form, one of the most important being triskaidekaaluminum, AIO4AIjz(OH)24(H20)E27+,
referred to as Alt3 Parker & Bertsch, 1992)."


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

VivariumWorks said:


> Correct the pH of the soil does play a factor as the availablility of the most toxic forms of Aluminum. But it can become soluble, especially when the organic acids from your bacteria and plant root exudates are concerned.


Even Alum Oxide? 

I agree that organic acids could release aluminum from compounds ( especially those that are involve more reactive elements ), but the aluminum / oxygen bond is one of the strongest, normally requiring a tremendous amount of energy to break.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

On basis are we making the assumption that the resulting clay mixture os going to be in the pH range of less than 5? There are a lot of buffers incorporated into the clay mixtures which result in a higher pH.. 

(and just as a point of clarification, your reactions are for gibbsite (aluminum hydroxide not aluminum oxide..) 

I am not a soil scientist but a very brief review of the literature shows that there are a lot of differences in different soils and soils that are made of different clays have differnet activities with respect to the ability of Al to move.. even under adverse pH conditions... And this also ignores the wide variations in plants both within and between species to resist Al toxicity.. 

Ed


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Ok, so why is it necessary to add to the soil?

How does it help? I'm failing to see the reason of adding it in, and as it can become soluble, why hunt it down, buy it, and add it to your soil? 

Unless the addition of it greatly improves the physical properties of your soil, again, I'm failing to see why people are so interested in it.

Besides, tropical rainforest soils are historically known for being very nutrient poor. That’s why the slash and burn of the forests for agricultural land is a continual thing. They can only get a few harvests out of the soil before they have to move on. So why we want to replicate this low nutrient soil for our vivarium is also something I question. But since some like the idea of replicating the exact conditions seen in nature, then I go along with this idea up to the prospect of the addition of pure Al2O3.

Now I do understand that wanting to have a more structurally stable soil for long term vivs is something to be desired, but how the aluminum oxide plays into this is???? 


Risk management for hazardous chemicals, Volume 1 By Jeffrey W. Vincoli

“Acute (short-term) toxic effects may include the death of animals, birds, or fish and death or low growth rate in plants. Acute effects are seen 2 to 4 days after animals or plants are exposed to aluminum oxide.” 

“Aluminum oxide has slight acute toxicity to aquatic life, but its toxicity will be increased under alkaline conditions. Insufficient data are available to evaluate or predict the short-term effects of aluminum oxide to plants, birds, and land animals.”
“Aluminum oxide is slightly solubity in water. Concentrations of 1 milligram or less will mix with a liter of water.”

I agree it seems some what like its contradicting itself but to claim that it isn't soluble and isn't hazardous to plant life is not true. And since I'm haven’t found any evidence of it aiding plant growth, but there is evidence of it becoming available and toxic in conditions likely to be seen in a vivarium, then again, why add this?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Having to reread up on everything to try and give a coherent answer... 



VivariumWorks said:


> Ok, so why is it necessary to add to the soil?
> 
> How does it help? I'm failing to see the reason of adding it in, and as it can become soluble, why hunt it down, buy it, and add it to your soil?
> 
> Unless the addition of it greatly improves the physical properties of your soil, again, I'm failing to see why people are so interested in it.


The idea behind the addition, starts with the premise that we are probably missing some aspects of the husbandry in these species (see the ultimate clay thread and the discussions in frognet as this idea was long in evolving before it was really put into practice) which could possibly be dealt with through the use of a substrate as close as possible to the soils in the natural enviroment of the frogs. There are perennial discussions on poor quality frogs, frog nutrition, problems with oophagous metamorphs etc... I would suggest reviewing some of them (particularly on frognet) as well. 



VivariumWorks said:


> Besides, tropical rainforest soils are historically known for being very nutrient poor. That’s why the slash and burn of the forests for agricultural land is a continual thing. They can only get a few harvests out of the soil before they have to move on. So why we want to replicate this low nutrient soil for our vivarium is also something I question. But since some like the idea of replicating the exact conditions seen in nature, then I go along with this idea up to the prospect of the addition of pure Al2O3.


And what is the problem with using low nutrient soils? One of the reasons the soils are so low nutrient is because in the areas that are not under cultivation, the nutrients get bound up almost as soon as they are dropped. There is a huge level of consumers ranging from microbes on up that rapidly recycles the nutrients. One of the problems with the areas that are under cultivation is that there is little recycling of the nutrients (as the input was primarily the result of burning (releasing the nutrients into ash (although black soils found in the Amazon are a stable long lasting nutrient release that appears to be from a different form of burning (see Reproducing the Amazons black soil could bolster fertility and remove carbon from atmosphere)). 
The low levels of nutrients encourages the microfauna to scavenge any waste.. 




VivariumWorks said:


> Now I do understand that wanting to have a more structurally stable soil for long term vivs is something to be desired, but how the aluminum oxide plays into this is????


You'll really need to contact Matt for the whole breakdown but as I understand it, it ends up in a stable bonding arrangement in/on the clay where it enables the clay to bind up a variety of molecules ranging from phosphate to humic acids (fulvic acid). It appears to help the clay reform into the particles that function more like particles than an impervious layer of clay and as a result not only forms a more suitable habitat for microfauna but potentially the roots (as it is not solublized but instead is bound up into the clay). 




VivariumWorks said:


> Risk management for hazardous chemicals, Volume 1 By Jeffrey W. Vincoli
> 
> “Acute (short-term) toxic effects may include the death of animals, birds, or fish and death or low growth rate in plants. Acute effects are seen 2 to 4 days after animals or plants are exposed to aluminum oxide.”
> 
> ...


How old is that reference? In (I think) 1989, it was was removed from the list of toxic ingredients. 
With respect to the plant toxicity etc, I could not find a reference for aluminum oxide itself.. only for aluminum hydroxide or aluminum sulphate..

Where did you get your reference for aluminum oxide dissolving into water? According to the CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry, Al203 is very insoluble.. It is also listed as such on many MSDS.. insoluble means that it does not dissolve to any real level in the water. 

If there is sufficient aluminum oxide it binds up with silica to become kaolin.. a very insoluble clay...


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

I will conced two things:

One that Al2O3 is not soluble.

I've found mixed results on solubility of the Aluminum Oxide. That previous citation being one of them, but since I go by The Merck Index says and it says "Insol in water", then I guess thats right. 


And two that by itself it is not a problem.

Al-toxicity studies in yeast using gallium as an aluminum analogue
Biometals (2008) 21:379–393
Raymond J. Ritchie and Shyam Sundar Raghupathi

"Aluminum (Al) is normally present in soils as the insoluble, harmless Al2O3. The highly toxic Al3+ and AlOH2+ monomeric cations are formed in acid soils but there is little consensus on the physiological basis of Al toxicity in plants. A major factor that has retarded progress in understanding aluminum toxicity in vascular plants is the lack of a convenient radioisotope for Al."

"The chemistry of Al ions in solution is complex (Greenwood and Earnshaw 1984; Delhaize and Ryan 1995; Kochian 1995; Marschner 1995). At low pH (below pH 4) the trivalent Al3+ cation (more accurately Al(H2O)6 3+) dominates: this is replaced by the Al(OH)2+ and Al(OH)2+ ions as the pH increases. At near neutral pH the insoluble Al (OH)3 or gibbsite is formed. The Al3+ cation is toxic to plants at micromolar external concentrations (Kinraide 1991; Kinraide et al. 1992; Ryan et al. 1992; Delhaize and Ryan 1995). The polynuclear form of Al cation (AlO4Al12(OH)24(H2O)12) 7+, commonly called Al13, which forms from the hydrolysis of Al3+, is also highly toxic (Kinraide 1991; Kochian 1995). Formation of Al13 is catalysed by plant cell walls (Masion and Bertsch 1997): the 7+ charge on Al13 binds it strongly to the fixed negative charges of plant cell walls. Other Al-ions (such as Al(OH)2+, Al(OH)2+ and Al(OH)4-) are considered non-toxic or only mildly toxic."


However,

In acidic conditions this reaction can occurr:

Al2O3(s) + 6H(aq) --> 2Al3+(aq) + 3H2O(l) 

The Al3+ is the problem.

Between acidic root exudates, bacteria, and root respiration giving off carbon dioxide, then forming carbonic acid, the H+ availablilty is there.


Using low nutrient soils to have the critters scavange waste faster is a good idea. I was thinking from the plants perspective and I could see how having that could be useful in a critter filled tank.

The previous reference was from 1997.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That is why I dug out my copy of the CRC Handbook of Physics and Chemistry... 

Yes the Al+3 ion can be a problem. I had to refresh myself on my biochem (which is my background and read through what I could gather up on the soil chem..). 

So does this bring us around to the discussion that there is a wide variation in Al resistence in plants along with various mechanisms to reduce Al+3 problems ranging from releasing nitric oxide and citric acid to neutralize the Al+3 to in cell detoxification to genetic based resistence. Is there value in having that discussion? 

Ed


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed said:


> And what is the problem with using low nutrient soils? One of the reasons the soils are so low nutrient is because in the areas that are not under cultivation, the nutrients get bound up almost as soon as they are dropped. There is a huge level of consumers ranging from microbes on up that rapidly recycles the nutrients. One of the problems with the areas that are under cultivation is that there is little recycling of the nutrients (as the input was primarily the result of burning (releasing the nutrients into ash (although black soils found in the Amazon are a stable long lasting nutrient release that appears to be from a different form of burning (see Reproducing the Amazon’s black soil could bolster fertility and remove carbon from atmosphere)).
> The low levels of nutrients encourages the microfauna to scavenge any waste..


( I have been quietly wondering if this discussion was going to touch on the different nature of Terra Preta as compared to standard tropical red/yellow clay soil, and personally this was a direction I would be more inclined to take from my own studies of it over the past 5 yrs or so )

I would say that Terra Preta is probably about a fertile as you might expect on a Iowa cornfield, but for different reasons - some of the pic's I have seen of it, it appears to also induce a more loamy texture over what I might expect as well.

Modern studies of Terra Preta, indicate that the charcoal in the soil acts in 3 major ways:

It increases microbial life and activity.
It act's as a nutrient sponge, by increasing the CEC over soil alone.
It lightens the texture of the soil, making it easier for roots to penetrate and water to drain.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Chopper Greg said:


> ( I have been quietly wondering if this discussion was going to touch on the different nature of Terra Preta as compared to standard tropical red/yellow clay soil, and personally this was a direction I would be more inclined to take from my own studies of it over the past 5 yrs or so )
> 
> I would say that Terra Preta is probably about a fertile as you might expect on a Iowa cornfield, but for different reasons - some of the pic's I have seen of it, it appears to also induce a more loamy texture over what I might expect as well.
> 
> ...


I has the opportunity to talk to some reasearchers working on replicating the soil in this case and the process is interesting and not that difficult (If I understood it correctly). 

Ed


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

I have also talked to folks trying to recreate it and have also come to the conclusion that in it's most basic form ( adding a good quality low temperature lump charcoal to soil ) it is doable by most people, and should be possible to do small scale for a Viv.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From what I understand, you want to heat the wood without any air flow into the burn at all but with someway to allow the extra gases to escape. This supposedly forms the charcoal that is very functionally similar to the charcoal in those soils. 

Ed


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## DougP (Feb 9, 2010)

Ed said:


> From what I understand, you want to heat the wood without any air flow into the burn at all but with someway to allow the extra gases to escape. This supposedly forms the charcoal that is very functionally similar to the charcoal in those soils.
> 
> Ed


Charcoal used in fireworks is made in this way all the time. To make it on a small scale for a Viv put your wood of choice in a new unused paint can (pieces the size of your thumb) put the lid on and drill 1 or 2 quarter inch holes in the lid. Put it on a hot fire and rotate so it heats evenly. When it stops spitting out smoke it's done. Take it out of the fire and set it on the ground with the holes facing down. Don't open it until it is completely cool.

If you want to make the charcoal into smaller chunks put it into a five gallon bucket and crush it with the end of a 2x4.

Doug


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## silentRI (Nov 9, 2009)

ok so i called my local art store today to look for the ingredients for my substrate. they told me that they had kaolin clay, but that they had 3 types of it. I am really not sure what type i am supposed to be looking for. The rep also told me that they had bentonite but wasnt sure what type it was. they had the red oxide but not the yellow, can i do without the yellow?? they have black. everything else was in stock.
in regards to vivariumworks comments about the alumnium oxide. would it be better to create the substrate with it and leave it out in the mixture for the background. i am not concered about the substrate as i am going to have it covered with leaf litter but the background. i wanted some plants on it


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

silentRI said:


> ok so i called my local art store today to look for the ingredients for my substrate. they told me that they had kaolin clay, but that they had 3 types of it. I am really not sure what type i am supposed to be looking for. The rep also told me that they had bentonite but wasnt sure what type it was. they had the red oxide but not the yellow, can i do without the yellow?? they have black. everything else was in stock.
> in regards to vivariumworks comments about the alumnium oxide. would it be better to create the substrate with it and leave it out in the mixture for the background. i am not concered about the substrate as i am going to have it covered with leaf litter but the background. i wanted some plants on it


In the amount that is in the mix isn't that great and if the mixture is followed the pH of the soil is well above the levels where the Al+3 ions become available (assuming that the bonding of the Al2O3 to the clay is going to allow it to dissolve..).. 

All of the ingredients are those that are required to mimic the soil composition (and if the process is followed) and characteristics of the tropical soil where many of these frogs originate. With that said, one can probably leave out an ingredient with no harm.. 
I've used a number of other recipes with good success. 

Ed


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed said:


> From what I understand, you want to heat the wood without any air flow into the burn at all but with someway to allow the extra gases to escape. This supposedly forms the charcoal that is very functionally similar to the charcoal in those soils.
> 
> Ed





DougP said:


> Charcoal used in fireworks is made in this way all the time. To make it on a small scale for a Viv put your wood of choice in a new unused paint can (pieces the size of your thumb) put the lid on and drill 1 or 2 quarter inch holes in the lid. Put it on a hot fire and rotate so it heats evenly. When it stops spitting out smoke it's done. Take it out of the fire and set it on the ground with the holes facing down. Don't open it until it is completely cool.
> 
> If you want to make the charcoal into smaller chunks put it into a five gallon bucket and crush it with the end of a 2x4.
> 
> Doug


Instead of making charcoal from scratch, you can buy it in the form of natural lump charcoal for BBQing - be sure that it is not formed briquettes, but lump charcoal, and marked " hardwood ".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Chopper Greg said:


> Instead of making charcoal from scratch, you can buy it in the form of natural lump charcoal for BBQing - be sure that it is not formed briquettes, but lump charcoal, and marked " hardwood ".


It doesn't function the same way as the charcoal we are discussing in the black earth posts above. There are real functional differences. 

Ed


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

Maybe and maybe not.


See the problem is, that no one knows how and why Terra Preta was made - whether it was a fortuitous mistake when the indigenous people tossed out their waste products ( including the debris from the fireplace ) and noticed that the mix of char and other things caused better growth in plants or if someone put some serious thought behind it.

The fact is, people are getting surprisingly good results from a variety of charcoal types, including natural lump charcoal that was reduced to 2-3 mm cross section and even large chunks will soon have roots and other things growing through them ( which after a year or so of weathering will crush and break apart in someones fingers ).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Chopper Greg said:


> Maybe and maybe not.
> 
> 
> See the problem is, that no one knows how and why Terra Preta was made - whether it was a fortuitous mistake when the indigenous people tossed out their waste products ( including the debris from the fireplace ) and noticed that the mix of char and other things caused better growth in plants or if someone put some serious thought behind it.
> ...


I am not speculating on whether Terra Preta was an accident or not.. 
Charcoal has long been known to be a good soil additive once it has been weathered (one of the reasons for slash and burn) but there appear to be differences in structure and function between charcoals formed at low temperatures (such as those found in Terra Preta) and high temperatures such as the charcoals used in grilling and this accounts for some of the differences in how the carbonized material functions in Terra Preta. 

Ed


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## Chopper Greg (Jun 17, 2010)

Ed said:


> Charcoal has long been known to be a good soil additive once it has been weathered (one of the reasons for slash and burn) but there appear to be differences in structure and function between charcoals formed at low temperatures (such as those found in Terra Preta) and high temperatures such as the charcoals used in grilling and this accounts for some of the differences in how the carbonized material functions in Terra Preta.
> 
> Ed


Not nessesarly.....

If a charcoal was made at high temperatures, then allot of the "smoky" flavor that would go into the meat when cooked with charcoal is lost, that is why good lump charcoal is usually made at under 500*-600* - so it retains as much of the phenols and aromatics that a good cooking charcoal releases during cooking.



OTOH, there is also a fair amount of debate about the phenols and aromatics, and how plants react to them.

Some of these compounds are toxic, and the debate that is currently going on revolves around if the char should be made at higher temperatures 700*+, so as to remove as much of these compounds as possible, the only problem is that higher amounts of ash are produced and a glassy "slag" ( from the ash ) starts to form on the cells walls of the char above about 800*-850* that requires more weathering to break down - but the char made at higher temps also shows a higher CEC than char made at lower temps.


Among many experimenters, the thought is that most types of charcoal ( as long as it isn't activated charcoal, which appears to have contrary physical properties ), can be used with varying degree's of immediate success, and quality can be made up with quantity, and in the very long term ( decades ), it's probably not going to matter if it was high temperature charcoal or low temperature charcoal - I tend to take this view myself, as the techniques that the indigenous people used, would have resulted in both high temperature and low temperature charcoal. ( this is where the debate about whether of not Terra Preta is an accidental occurrence or intentionally made, comes in )


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