# Feedback Poll - Show Sales: Table vs. Meeting



## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

One of the moderators' responsibilities here on Dendroboard is to read and approve items for sale. The rules are generally simple and straightforward. However, there has been concern about ads posted for events such as regional reptile shows. While Dendroboard is not directly affiliated with any of these shows, some of the vendors are members and/or sponsors of this forum. 

Some members feel as though moderators should not allow advertisements if the seller is not a vendor of the show. On the other hand, others believe that if sales are going to happen via Dendroboard anyway, and both buyer and seller will be going to the show, there should not be a reason for moderators to stop a pre-arranged transaction from taking place. 

We would like to "unmud" our policy, and we are reaching out to the community for input. Please answer yes or no, and feel free to leave us your comments. 
*
The question is: Should the moderation team allow ads of people who are not paying vendors of a show if the show's name is mentioned in the ad?*


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Just a couple things...

This is an anonymous poll so if you want to keep your answer hidden that is fine... However, we do encourage everyone to please share their opinions in the thread here. We understand that the votes may end up getting skewed simply due to the fact there are more people here that aren't paying vendors at the shows than those that are. 

We also understand that this may not be a total black and white situation. Sharing your views allows us to factor all the good talking points into our final decision. 

Thank you in advance!


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

If I'm on the list to bring animals into the show under a different vendors name, why do I have to disclose this to dendroboard? I am bringing the animals into the shows with permission of the show organizers.


I'd like to know if any other forums feel they are the self appointed police of these shows? None that I go on but this one that I've noticed.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I think you would have a more definitive poll if you had the moderators who are in support of this actually write a proposed policy and then poll that.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Pretty sure your opinion would change if you bought a table, were a vendor, at more shows.

Why should THEY (the people who PAY for the show) support YOUR sales activities? Let them do the heavy lifting and you just float along and sell anyway?

I have no respect for that.

There ARE ways to do this without *advertising* to that effect.

s


mydumname said:


> If I'm on the list to bring animals into the show under a different vendors name, why do I have to disclose this to dendroboard? I am bringing the animals into the shows with permission of the show organizers.
> 
> 
> I'd like to know if any other forums feel they are the self appointed police of these shows? None that I go on but this one that I've noticed.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I attend and assist a vendor at the main show I go to and in turn put animals on the table. The other shows I have brought stuff to vendors and also arranged some other sales but just choose not to actually put additional animals on the table though I could.

I don't see why there is something wrong with that.


Feel free to pm me why you disrespect that so much. Many people don't actually get a table but use some space on others tables to help fill theirs if they are low on inventory or just because.

Also, I actually didn't vote or express my opinion as to whether I think it's right or wrong so not sure what opinion of mine you feel would change since I didn't even say mine.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is fine as they're paying for the privilege. It's been a common practice for a long time.

s


mydumname said:


> ... Feel free to pm me why you disrespect that so much. Many people don't actually get a table but use some space on others tables to help fill theirs if they are low on inventory or just because.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

ecichlid said:


> I think you would have a more definitive poll if you had the moderators who are in support of this actually write a proposed policy and then poll that.


I would think the wording would be something like:

"You cannot explicitly mention a show in a thread unless you are a registered vendor of that show". 

Though the goal of this thread is kinda to hone that and see what people thought was appropriate.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Yep. I don't get the initial reaction ....but moving on.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I have no problem with others posting parking lot classifieds for show dates that I am vending...

In some cases, a certain frog wont be available inside the expo...it doesn't seem fair to deprive someone from being alerted of that frogs availability to be there.

Also, I stand behind my frogs proudly for thousands to see at these expos, and have no doubt that if it were up to a buyer to meet someone in a parking lot, or walk through an expo and look at multiple vendors' frogs to choose from, the vendors would get the sale...and if not, it's probably a pricing issue, and I wouldn't want to and don't sell my frogs to hagglers anyway.

*Let them post.*


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

From being a vendor I have sometimes spent hours packing and 100's of dollars to attend a show and not made enough to cover costs. I have seen people make more in one transaction than I did at the whole show when using my table as a meeting place. The shows and the vendors have to make money. They have sales tax license' to be able to vend at an event. I'm pretty sure Pa stopped people from having tables who didn't have a tax license, NY doesn't allow it. Some of these vendors drive hours to take a risk at attending a show. The reason it is a meeting place is because vendors are spending a lot of money to make it happen and taking a risk in the process. Seems quite unfair to me.
Why not ask a vendor to front the transaction. Offer a percent for being able to stand at their table and wait for a customer. Most places I was at had me give a list of people bringing animals into the show. I think they do that for a reason. Maybe so it doesn't turn into a meeting place and the vendors drop.
Do people grow veggies in their garden and advertise they'll be at the farmers market and then sell them in the parking lot?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Just so we have a more focused discussion, the issue on hand here is not whether selling at shows' "parking lot" is ethical or not. The issue here is whether it is the moderators' responsibility to block ads of such sales.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

While I understand the point of view of the vendors, most of the people on this forum are here because this is their hobby and aren't in it to be rich. The shows offer a chance for hobbiest that may not live close to each other a chance to kill two birds with one stone, by allowing you to see and exchange frogs from a fellow hobbiest without paying shipping and attend the show. I suspect many of the people selling frogs outside of the shows are doing so that they will have the funds to purchase the supplies and animals from the vendors inside. Not every type of frog that you may want will be offered for sale by a vendor.


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

JPccusa said:


> Just so we have a more focused discussion, the issue on hand here is not whether selling at shows' "parking lot" is ethical or not. The issue here is whether it is the moderators' responsibility to block ads of such sales.


I guess when someone signs up to be a sponsor in this forum and the agreement for doing so is that they will have special privileges such as a special vendor section. If part of those special privileges is that non sponsors can't advertise sales at reptile shows then yes you should moderate the ads. If the mention of reptile shows was not in the agreement then you shouldn't moderate them. What do you guys do when a non sponsor buys a table and advertises here? Is it your job to contact the show and verify that such person has a table?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

If the Mod team's position is that the issue is not about being ethical, or not, You are suggesting that even if it is ethical, it shouldn't be allowed. In fact, by banning such ads, you are inferring a position of it being unethical. Aside from that, what you are essentially asking is: Should DB mods stand up for the show, or the hobbyist? Personally, I believe this to be overreaching of DB's hand. It is up to the show to police their policies. If they want to allow anyone to show up with animals, the vendors beef is with the the show organizers. If the show forbids it, and people do discrete "parking lot sales", that would be a failure of the shows policing. 


EDIT: At what point does it become censorship?



JPccusa said:


> Just so we have a more focused discussion, the issue on hand here is not whether selling at shows' "parking lot" is ethical or not. The issue here is whether it is the moderators' responsibility to block ads of such sales.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Most of the time they are common frogs that most vendors have for sale.I've never seen a frog trying to be sold this way that was rare or something that the vendors won't have.If they want to sell them at the show,they should buy a table like the other vendors.If a vendor has a table and has space on their table for you that is different,but in my opinion if you don't have table space you should not sell frogs and undercut the vendors paying for the privilege to sell there animals.That's like going to Mcdonalds and having a guy selling burgers in the parkinglot for half price.It's just a lack of respect to your fellow froggers who've paid to do it and it's not fair to do to them.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Greg if you are doing labor for a vendor and your payment is putting animals on their table you are in essence paying for your right to put animals on their table. If you merely went in an said hey let me sell some animals on your table, I would agree that scenario is wrong and not fair to those supporting the show by buying tables and space.
I think if a member here is attending a show and buying a table they should be able to advertise it in the regional forum, if buying frogs locally or not paying to ship and adding that stress to the animals is an option people should be able to find out about it and see an ad stating it.
I do not believe however that a show should be allowed to advertise itself without being a sponsor, for certain reptiles shows to clog Regional Threads with announcements of their shows is not fair to the sponsors here, even if they are not direct competition to that vendor. If a member wants to tell everybody they are going to be at that show, fair game but if the show wants to announce it without sponsoring this site I say delete their ads. So my answer is if a show is a sponsor it should be protected, if not people should be able to pass frogs to each other in the parking lot and say so here.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

mongo77 said:


> ...What do you guys do when a non sponsor buys a table and advertises here?


That should fly without a glitch. 


mongo77 said:


> Is it your job to contact the show and verify that such person has a table?


It is not our job, but we usually know the shows' organizers and/or have access to the shows' official vendors list. Most of the time, we ask the person placing the "for sale" ad via PM.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Suppose the vender wanted more diversity in their offerings, and requested someone bring them more frogs to sell?


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

I'm willing to bet that the vendors themselves have bought frogs from people at shows who did not have a table.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

aspidites73 said:


> Suppose the vender wanted more diversity in their offerings, and requested someone bring them more frogs to sell?


I don't see a problem with that as the vendor is the one assuming the responsibility of the final sales.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> So my answer is if a show is a sponsor it should be protected, if not people should be able to pass frogs to each other in the parking lot and say so here.


From what I can gather... this debate has kinda originated from that position. With events like Microcosm and Frog Day being set up and organized largely in part by this hobby and members of this board, it became the norm to refuse outside ads for those events "out of respect for the vendors". My assumption is because the community as a whole understands that those vendor fees are going to a cause we all stand behind.

that's where this kinda comes into play: 


aspidites73 said:


> what you are essentially asking is: Should DB mods stand up for the show, or the hobbyist? Personally, I believe this to be overreaching of DB's hand. It is up to the show to police their policies. If they want to allow anyone to show up with animals, the vendors beef is with the the show organizers. If the show forbids it, and people do discrete "parking lot sales", that would be a failure of the shows policing.


So, our debate behind the scenes has kind of evolved to the question of: should this rule be applied to all events, no matter their organizers? There are obvious ethical/moral questions behind this that we were unsure of the answers to... hence why we are asking.

Thank you everyone so far for your opinions/suggestions. Keep them coming!


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

aspidites73 said:


> If the Mod team's position is that the issue is not about being ethical, or not, You are suggesting that even if it is ethical, it shouldn't be allowed. In fact, by banning such ads, you are inferring a position of it being unethical. Aside from that, what you are essentially asking is: Should DB mods stand up for the show, or the hobbyist? Personally, I believe this to be overreaching of DB's hand. It is up to the show to police their policies. If they want to allow anyone to show up with animals, the vendors beef is with the the show organizers. If the show forbids it, and people do discrete "parking lot sales", that would be a failure of the shows policing.
> 
> 
> EDIT: At what point does it become censorship?


I generally agree with this statement. 

As someone that has worked a table at dozens and dozens of trade shows (completely non-frog related) I believe it is the facility's and event organizer's responsibility to police the event. DB does a service now by policing this behind the scenes it seems which is a great gesture imo, but does not need to be made policy. 

You guys have to be busy enough as it is eh?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

ckays said:


> DB does a service now by policing this behind the scenes it seems which is a great gesture imo, but does not need to be made policy.


Are you saying we should not allow such ads but still not make a policy that would support our actions? That would not help unmuddy the waters.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

JPccusa said:


> Are you saying we should not allow such ads but still not make a policy that would support our actions? That would not help unmuddy the waters.


How will you police the difference between people asked to bring animals to a vendor, people who are friends of a vendor and with said vendor's approval, people who advertise I live in Hamburg (while the Hamburg show is going on), and people who are parking lot vendors?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

oddlot said:


> That's like going to Mcdonalds and having a guy selling burgers in the parkinglot for half price.It's just a lack of respect to your fellow froggers who've paid to do it and it's not fair to do to them.


While food is a different story, I can certainly meet someone in the parking lot of a pet store and sell them a frog.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

oddlot said:


> Most of the time they are common frogs that most vendors have for sale.I've never seen a frog trying to be sold this way that was rare or something that the vendors won't have.


I have on multiple occasions including at some events like the old IADs. 

There are a couple of things missing from this discussion so far. For example, what are the rules put forth by the events? For example, at IADs, it was against the rules of the event to conduct sales in the parking lot or rooms or to sell or trade non-captive bred animals. Too often many of those people wouldn't even enter the show or pay to watch the lectures. So it's more than just depriving the vendors of income. It can also be a direct hit against the ability of the show to continue due to declining revenue. This was one of the problems that plagued IAD. Too little income made it difficult to keep the show solvent so those who just had to do the sales outside the vendor's room to save a couple of bucks can pat themselves on the back for adding some nails to IADs coffin. 

If the rules of the event ban it, then it shouldn't be approved as it would be tacit approval of unethical behavior. 

Secondly, the hobby really has nothing to complain about other than being inconvenienced if there is a ban on advertising what people are taking to some regional events. They can simply post it in the regular classified section for free and state that no shipping at that time. 

Third, bringing animals for a vendor at a show is not the same as bringing animals for a person to do a parking lot sale. This is because the vendor has paid for a table and it's really a non-issue as based from this topic of conversation. 

I see no problems banning advertising in the regional sections for people not vending at shows. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As a further point to this discussion.. 

People should consider that these parking lot transactions are having the same impact on a vendor as the company that started out as Dart Frog Warehouse. Your undercutting a vendor and hitting them where it is important right in the pocket because your taking advantage of having reduced overhead costs because you're not paying for a table. 
I find it discouraging, that the hobby can take a stand against something like DFW as long as it isn't in their interest but the moment they can make a few dollars, they don't mind doing what in essence is the exact same thing. 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, support the sponsors and vendors at shows. If you want to help keep DFW from redefining the dart frog hobby sell to a vendor at a table at a cost to put the squeeze on DFW. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

aspidites73 said:


> How will you police the difference between people asked to bring animals to a vendor, people who are friends of a vendor and with said vendor's approval, people who advertise I live in Hamburg (while the Hamburg show is going on), and people who are parking lot vendors?


This is about the ads, not about the actual show. I'm not sure I understand your different scenarios. 

In our eyes, either you are a vendor or you are not. All the behind the scenes talks and whose frogs are being sold at the tables are not of our concern.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Neither are the vendors.


mongo77 said:


> While I understand the point of view of the vendors, most of the people on this forum are here because this is their hobby and aren't in it to be rich. The shows offer a chance for hobbiest that may not live close to each other a chance to kill two birds with one stone, by allowing you to see and exchange frogs from a fellow hobbiest without paying shipping and attend the show. I suspect many of the people selling frogs outside of the shows are doing so that they will have the funds to purchase the supplies and animals from the vendors inside. Not every type of frog that you may want will be offered for sale by a vendor.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Ed said:


> ...What are the rules put forth by the events?
> ...If the rules of the event ban it, then it shouldn't be approved as it would be tacit approval of unethical behavior.


Is it Dendroboard's job to know the different events' rules and enforce them?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

One of the other points that has been brought up in the past is the "intent" of the ad.

Some people said:

"if the intention of the ad is to sell frogs no matter what, whether it is meeting up locally/at someone's house or shipping... it shouldn't be an issue if the person mentions they are going to be attending a local show, so long as they are not advertising as though they are a vendor"

This would differ from the person that has a bunch of frogs they are sitting on and just decides "Well, xyz show is coming up, better post an ad and see if I can sell some" while not actually being interested in the effort required to sell them otherwise.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

There is a distinct difference between cutting vendor prices and selling animals in the parking lot. There are people here who greatly undercut prices. Are we to ban them, too? Why not? they're having the same effect. I do agree with Ed that the regionals is no place to advertise frogs for sale. That's what the classifieds are for. Regionals should be for show/meeting/event promotions, not individual frog sales.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ads are permitted in the regional sections for shows:



> Informational classifieds are permitted in the "Regional Group & Event Announcements" section as long as they are posted in relation to a meeting or show. Classifieds posted as standalone threads or posted in a unrelated thread in this section will be removed.


(User Agreement)

Generally, these are the "Hey I'm a vendor at this show and I have these frogs for sale" kind of ads. These are "unmoderated" in that they don't need approval and are not subject to the typical requirements of a 'Marketplace' ad.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

JPccusa said:


> This is about the ads, not about the actual show. I'm not sure I understand your different scenarios.
> 
> In our eyes, either you are a vendor or you are not. All the behind the scenes talks and whose frogs are being sold at the tables are not of our concern.



Your saying there is a problem with people posting ads saying they are a vendor, when they aren't? If I live in/around Hamburg, and advertise my frogs during the Hamburg event, this is wrong simply because i'm not a vendor?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I'm pretty sure they all require a tax license now. How many hobbyists have a tax license for their own state alone traveling to shows? And every show I've been to requires a vendor to be able to bring animals into the show and I don't remember any that allowed open sales in the parking lot. Dig around they may all be the same.

If it wants to be ethical it wouldn't allow open advertising knowing the rules.



JPccusa said:


> Is it Dendroboard's job to know the different events' rules and enforce them?


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I see your point, and agree. Non vendors should not be able to post in regional sections. If in the non vendor classifieds section I see no harm.



carola1155 said:


> Ads are permitted in the regional sections for shows:
> 
> 
> (User Agreement)
> ...


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## Calivet (Aug 12, 2013)

Going to shows and seeing frogs on tables is what gets new blood into the hobby. Being able to get good advice from the people at those tables is what keeps the frogs alive in the hands of those new hobbyists. That should be protected - people selling in the parking lot have an element of parasitism and are taking advantage of the crowds brought by the people who actually pay to set up a table. It may be convenient but it certainly isn't a "right". Either buy a table, have an arrangement with someone at a table (in which case saying you'll be at the show e should be fine), or state that you're only selling locally and set up the where of it behind the scenes.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

aspidites73 said:


> I see your point, and agree. Non vendors should not be able to post in regional sections. JP's questions specified classifieds ads. If in the non vendor classifieds section I see no harm.



The grey area is... what if someone chimes in on an existing show thread and says something like "hey I need a male standard imitator" ?

Or if someone starts a thread asking "who is going to be at this show? I'm looking for some terribilis". That could be geared towards vendors but they may get responses from non-vendors. (privately or publicly)

It is tough to draw lines there... (I'm just offering food for thought on all this)


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

aspidites73 said:


> Your saying there is a problem with people posting ads saying they are a vendor, when they aren't? If I live in/around Hamburg, and advertise my frogs during the Hamburg event, this is wrong simply because i'm not a vendor?


No. The problem is when people say "I'll be at the show" while not having a table at said show. 
If you live in Hamburg/nearby the show and do not mention the show by name in your ad, it would be approved without a problem.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JPccusa said:


> Is it Dendroboard's job to know the different events' rules and enforce them?


No, that is the job of the vendors/sponsors. If they are the ones complaining then they can supply a copy of the shows rules to justify that the complaint is valid. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

If these ads are in the regional section, they should not be there unless your putting on a show/meeting/event, or vending at said show/meeting /event. If it's a DB marketplace ad stating i'll be at the show I see no problem with it. If the show doesn't allow animals to be brought there by non vendors, the show should police that. If they do allow animals from non vendors, the vendors beef is with the show, not DB



JPccusa said:


> No. The problem is when people say "I'll be at the show" while not having a table at said show.
> If you live in Hamburg/nearby the show and do not mention the show by name in your ad, it would be approved without a problem.


I do not believe personal frog requests should be allowed in the Regional section either. We have a Wanted Section in the Marketplace for that.



carola1155 said:


> The grey area is... what if someone chimes in on an existing show thread and says something like "hey I need a male standard imitator" ?
> 
> Or if someone starts a thread asking "who is going to be at this show? I'm looking for some terribilis". That could be geared towards vendors but they may get responses from non-vendors. (privately or publicly)
> 
> It is tough to draw lines there... (I'm just offering food for thought on all this)


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

JPccusa said:


> Are you saying we should not allow such ads but still not make a policy that would support our actions? That would not help unmuddy the waters.


No. Sorry to be unclear.

I was saying allowing the ads is fine and it is nice of you guys to check up on things/let event organizers know what you are seeing on the boards.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Should be easy enough for someone to circumvent any ad censorship. Rather than mention "Repticon" in Sarasota on Aug 9. They can simply say "we can meet up somewhere in Sarasota on Aug 9, send PM for details."
...or would the mods try to prevent that as well?


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Ed said:


> No, that is the job of the vendors/sponsors. If they are the ones complaining then they can supply a copy of the shows rules to justify that the complaint is valid.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Just to clarify, we have not received any complaints about "parking lot sellers." What prompted this thread was a lack of policy in our User Agreement allowing/forbidding such sales from taking place via our classifieds. 

Also, I use "parking lot sellers" as an umbrella term that refers to anyone using shows' names to setup sales locations, be it in nearby hotels, restaurants, or parking lots.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

aspidites73 said:


> There is a distinct difference between cutting vendor prices and selling animals in the parking lot. There are people here who greatly undercut prices. Are we to ban them, too?


That is different than using the forum outside of the classifieds to reduce the revenue at a show or meet. Your example is part of the free market in action while the second is taking advantage of a loophole for personal gain to the detriment of specific parties. 

The difference is because those vending in the parking lot doesn't have the overhead costs and can choose to take less for the animal so each animal sold in the parking lot removes revenue from the vendor as well as the show itself. 

This is one of the self reinforcing cycles in the hobby.... people tell newer people to buy from a reputable hobbyist breeder and avoid those who "flip" frogs. Most of the people who resell frogs are found at shows so sponsors and breeders who do get tables are already at a disadvantage due to marketing (some out of a considerable self interest by certain parties) and this hurts the regional shows where there is additional overhead. The hobby needs to be more aware of what they are doing to themselves. 

There is a difference between those who choose to sell for less via the regular classifieds or to vendor than those who use the show/event without any of the associated fees. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Reef_Haven said:


> Should be easy enough for someone to circumvent any ad censorship. Rather than mention "Repticon" in Sarasota on Aug 9. They can simply say "we can meet up somewhere in Sarasota on Aug 9, send PM for details."
> ...or would the mods try to prevent that as well?


No, that would be fine. I (we?) can't keep track of where each show is happening and would approve it.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I disagree that it is a free market, it's a subsidized market. The people selling for less do not include the costs a business would have to.



Ed said:


> That is different than using the forum outside of the classifieds to reduce the revenue at a show or meet. Your example is part of the free market in action while the second is taking advantage of a loophole for personal gain to the detriment of specific parties.
> 
> The difference is because those vending in the parking lot doesn't have the overhead costs and can choose to take less for the animal so each animal sold in the parking lot removes revenue from the vendor as well as the show itself.
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JPccusa said:


> Just to clarify, we have not received any complaints about "parking lot sellers." What prompted this thread was a lack of policy in our User Agreement allowing/forbidding such sales from taking place via our classifieds.
> 
> Also, I use "parking lot sellers" as an umbrella term that refers to anyone using shows' names to setup sales locations, be it in nearby hotels, restaurants, or parking lots.


I understood the overall umbrella idea of the parking lot sellers. When IAD was still alive, the IAD committee did get complaints about it and then took it to the forum at that time to get some support from the forum. 

In the absence of a complaint, then I would simply make the people use the regular classifieds to advertise availability as that would clean up the regional thread as well as limit complaints or other issues. Right now (and I've done it in the past), the regional's are used as a free zone to advertise for events. This means that a person who had their ability to post in the regular classifieds but still had rights to post in non-classified threads could still continue to advertise without getting the original issues resolved. 

Some comments 

Ed .


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Roadrunner said:


> I disagree that it is a free market, it's a subsidized market. The people selling for less do not include the costs a business would have to.


The free market comment was in reference to people advertising in the regular classified animals for sale at prices below the cost of a sponsor/vendor, not those who were going to the show. I guess you could say that it is a subsidized market as it is a hobby but it is the action that is setting the overall valuation of an animal sold in the regular classified. People often forget that prices of animals in this (and many other hobbies) function as a pyramid scheme. The few with the most desirable animals will profit the most while those further down the line see reduced prices until the market bottoms out and more people divest themselves of those animals setting the market back up for another boom and bust. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Ed said:


> ... In the absence of a complaint, then I would simply make the people use the regular classifieds to advertise availability as that would clean up the regional thread as well as limit complaints or other issues. Right now (and I've done it in the past), the regional's are used as a free zone to advertise for events. This means that a person who had their ability to post in the regular classifieds but still had rights to post in non-classified threads could still continue to advertise without getting the original issues resolved.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed .


The mod team has talked about ads in the Regionals before, but decided to leave the User Agreement as is (quoted above by Tom). Perhaps we should consider changing that part of the Agreement if that would solve the "parking lot sellers" issue as well.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I agree that allowing ads in the regional section could allow someone to post an ad that has lost his privileges but I believe that allowing ads in the regional section helps promote the handing off of frogs be it from a table or the parking lot which is really good for a large % of our hobby. I would suggest these ads should be allowed in regional sections as they are now, I think it also promotes a regional or near local network of resources.
As for the large frog shows, IAD, Microcosm and Frog Day, I think they should have a different set of rules, those vending should be offered protection but as Kevin mentioned if someone wants to PM info to others about being there should be allowed...now if they said hey I have lots of stuff PM me in a post, I think that would be over the line. PMing people behind the scenes though is someone's own personal business and should be allowed as such.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> I agree that allowing ads in the regional section could allow someone to post an ad that has lost his privileges


If it is clear someone is posting in the regional section simply to avoid the moderation behind posting in the marketplace... they will receive the appropriate warnings/infractions/time off and have their posts removed. There is no question about that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> If it is clear someone is posting in the regional section simply to avoid the moderation behind posting in the marketplace... they will receive the appropriate warnings/infractions/time off and have their posts removed. There is no question about that.


But to some extent that is closing the barn door after the horse is gone... 

The only way to control it is to either moderate the regional ads like the regular classifieds or to make people use the regular classifieds for what they can bring to a meet. 

For the mods to have to differentiate between what is a parking lot sale for a "protected" event versus a non-protected event is pushing the boundry in the absence of a complaint by a sponsor/vendor. The whole argument about reduced stress on the frogs is simply a justification to continue what is potentially problematic behavior to the hobby at large. Pms can handle any discussion of trades or swaps in the parking lots all a person has to do is ask who is going to so and so swap etc. People have a good idea what the people in their area keep and are likely to have available. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> But to some extent that is closing the barn door after the horse is gone...
> 
> The only way to control it is to either moderate the regional ads like the regular classifieds or to make people use the regular classifieds for what they can bring to a meet.


Someone that is intent on posting "somewhere else" could just as easily post it in the general discussion section too.

While I understand your point about it being reactionary as opposed to proactive... An idiot trying to avoid the rules and having an ad up for 30-60 minutes before it gets noticed/reported can happen anywhere. There is a point where we have to rely on people reporting things and helping us out.


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## Tincman (Jan 18, 2013)

Good Job for addressing this, it is interesting & illuminating for me personally having been someone thats done this a couple times & been sort of on both sides of this.. for ex listing: "Available at show" Ive done, but I wasnt technically vending with a table, however I did have a right to sell frogs based on me wholesaling to vendors at the show (you had to receive vendor sticker to do this at the show I attended). I just had a few customers grab presold frogs from me to save shipping since I was attending the show as well.. I agree with what Mark wrote about if the Sponsors are vending then the adds should be removed as it would seem that if someone is supporting the site the site should support them & it would be a conflict of interest to allow an ad to undercut a sponsor paying to vend at a show. After reading this, I feel people should not use the show in the ads unless vending, but if DB sponsors arent there it really doesnt need to be moderated by DB IMO...The only issue here is the using of the show to get the sale, not the using of the show for premade sales as a meet point or using the show as a swapping point as far as I see it. For example if a guy IVe sold frog to finds out we are both going to the show & wants to save on shipping thats fine, but I wont list being at the show to attract sales, especially if DB Sponsors are involved I will not do it on this site. I will find another way to economize & still sell at shows, perhaps *splitting a table a few ways* is a better alternative to listing availability at shows youre not vending. ITs a tough balance if you dont really have much inventory to weigh out the price of a table so I dont fault those that may not have known or considered the possible vendor/sponsor ramifications of listing show availability as a non vendor. This thread is good because people will be aware of what happens when you list this way.


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

I'm not in conflict with differentiating between the Regional Market and Marketplace Classifieds. To be clear, I do NOT support personnel/for sale ads in the Regional Section.





Ed said:


> That is different than using the forum outside of the classifieds to reduce the revenue at a show or meet. Your example is part of the free market in action while the second is taking advantage of a loophole for personal gain to the detriment of specific parties.
> 
> The difference is because those vending in the parking lot doesn't have the overhead costs and can choose to take less for the animal so each animal sold in the parking lot removes revenue from the vendor as well as the show itself.
> 
> ...


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ethical vs unethical debates are meaningless and circular there will be no clear winner. What ultimately matters here is one simple issue. What will happen to dendroboard? If dendroboard enforces this policy then perhaps people like myself will find another board to post on that allows us to connect with people at shows. If dendroboard does not enforce this policy then perhaps sponsors will stop paying. 

That's all there is too it nothing more than dendroboards selfish motivations matter here. It is not dendroboards job to help extend a local monopoly from a show venue out on to the internet. If repticon wants that, then tell them to pony up some cash. All the crying by certain vendors is just their selfish desire to enforce a local monopoly and their misguided understanding of how capitalism works and the value a show offers them. it seems obvious to me by the mere fact people are even allowed to post classifieds at all without becoming a sponsor that dendroboard values the traffic those people bring, I have been to forums where you cannot post a classified at all without paying. (didn't stay there long)

IMO the correct pole would be, if dendroboard enforces such a policy how many of you will post on another forum??? they can pole sponsors privately. And of course dendrboard mods will have to carefully guess if that would really be the tipping point that moves people off to another forum or if the respondents are more talk than action.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Take your ball and go home then.....


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pubfiction said:


> Ethical vs unethical debates are meaningless and circular there will be no clear winner. What ultimately matters here is one simple issue. What will happen to dendroboard? If dendroboard enforces this policy then perhaps people like myself will find another board to post on that allows us to connect with people at shows. If dendroboard does not enforce this policy then perhaps sponsors will stop paying.
> 
> That's all there is too it nothing more than dendroboards selfish motivations matter here. It is not dendroboards job to help extend a local monopoly from a show venue out on to the internet. If repticon wants that, then tell them to pony up some cash. All the crying by certain vendors is just their selfish desire to enforce a local monopoly and their misguided understanding of how capitalism works and the value a show offers them. it seems obvious to me by the mere fact people are even allowed to post classifieds at all without becoming a sponsor that dendroboard values the traffic those people bring, I have been to forums where you cannot post a classified at all without paying. (didn't stay there long)
> 
> IMO the correct pole would be, if dendroboard enforces such a policy how many of you will post on another forum??? they can pole sponsors privately. And of course dendrboard mods will have to carefully guess if that would really be the tipping point that moves people off to another forum or if the respondents are more talk than action.


Obviously I'm not going to actually show you... But if you saw all the conversation about this behind the scenes you would put down the tin foil hat and relax. Never has this been about driving traffic on the forum or making sponsors happy. This is about just trying to do what is right for the community. 

While we are at it with the conspiracy theories... Before anyone mentions it... Nothing, I repeat, _nothing_ has been said to us by the owners of the forum about this. This is strictly the moderators trying to adjust how we operate within the community. (That we are all a part of)

I apologize if I'm being dismissive of an actual concern of yours here, but at face value it seems pretty ridiculous.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> Obviously I'm not going to actually show you... But if you saw all the conversation about this behind the scenes you would put down the tin foil hat and relax. Never has this been about driving traffic on the forum or making sponsors happy. This is about just trying to do what is right for the community.
> 
> While we are at it with the conspiracy theories... Before anyone mentions it... Nothing, I repeat, _nothing_ has been said to us by the owners of the forum about this. This is strictly the moderators trying to adjust how we operate within the community. (That we are all a part of)
> 
> I apologize if I'm being dismissive of an actual concern of yours here, but at face value it seems pretty ridiculous.


I don't believe I made any statement which suggests I assumed or know anything about what happened behind the scenes at dendroboard... Nor did I make any claim of a conspiracy. If you mistakenly quoted the wrong post sorry, if not I suggest you reread it for what it says.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Take your ball and go home then.....


 Is that comment really needed? Does it move the discussion forward?

No and no.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> Is that comment really needed? Does it move the discussion forward?
> 
> No and no.


Maybe not to you. 

Sometimes the best way to point out the absurdities of someone's argument is a simple satirical summarization of their ridiculous statements.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pubfiction said:


> I don't believe I made any statement which suggests I assumed or know anything about what happened behind the scenes at dendroboard... Nor did I make any claim of a conspiracy. If you mistakenly quoted the wrong post sorry, if not I suggest you reread it for what it says.


I must have misinterpreted your post then.. sorry. From what I read, it appeared as though you were kinda inserting assumptions about the operations/concerns of the forum.

This debate started entirely between the moderators ourselves. We did not have a sponsor say anything to us. We did not have a vendor complain. We did not have a show complain to us. It was strictly started as a "is this the right thing?" debate. 

Your proposed change to the poll therefore made no sense to me, as people going somewhere else to post classifieds is not the concern of the moderators. We aren't here to drive traffic. It is the job of the moderators to enforce the User Agreement and promote the board's Mission. 

From the board's "Mission":


> This site was created to promote a growing and very rewarding hobby, and consolidate as much useful information in one location as possible.


There are plenty of facebook groups and other avenues to buy/sell animals. The main focus of this forum has always been the sharing of information about the care of dart frogs and vivarium building. The classifieds are not what "makes" this forum. The information about care and construction is what drives most of the traffic.

Also from the "Mission" and what could be considered responsible for this debate:


> This site will continue to be a volunteer based initiative, dedicated to building a friendly community and academic resource.


We want this place to be friendly. Unfortunately, there always seems to be some sort of hostility over something every week. With this topic, we are just trying to take steps to align our moderation practices with what the community at large prefers. It is an attempt to be proactive instead of reactive for once.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

This is what I mean by being subtle.

You can do this - just don't ride coattails explicitly.

s



Reef_Haven said:


> Should be easy enough for someone to circumvent any ad censorship. Rather than mention "Repticon" in Sarasota on Aug 9. They can simply say "we can meet up somewhere in Sarasota on Aug 9, send PM for details."
> ...or would the mods try to prevent that as well?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Wrong.

It's been mentioned. 

s


carola1155 said:


> ... This debate started entirely between the moderators ourselves. We did not have a sponsor say anything to us. We did not have a vendor complain. We did not have a show complain to us. It was strictly started as a "is this the right thing?" debate.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Well that was never portrayed to the entire moderator team... 

So then, I guess I need to modify my previous statement:

For myself and at least one of the other moderators that was not made aware of the complaint, this has always just been a "is this the right thing" debate.

I apologize for any confusion.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> I must have misinterpreted your post then.. sorry. From what I read, it appeared as though you were kinda inserting assumptions about the operations/concerns of the forum.
> 
> This debate started entirely between the moderators ourselves. We did not have a sponsor say anything to us. We did not have a vendor complain. We did not have a show complain to us. It was strictly started as a "is this the right thing?" debate.
> 
> ...


If you really mean what you say, this is an issue about right and wrong, IE and ethical dilemma, then what exactly is the ethically wrong with posting that you will be in the area of a show? 

Second how does a classifieds section at all fit with the mission if you so strictly define it and feel that information is what this site is all about? Why not remove the classified section then and tell people to do that elsewhere?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pubfiction said:


> If you really mean what you say, this is an issue about right and wrong, IE and ethical dilemma, then what exactly is the ethically wrong with posting that you will be in the area of a show?


I do mean it... and to be honest I don't know the answer to that question. I'm hoping to learn both sides of the story via this thread and make my own opinion. Anyone can look at my old ads... I've done exactly this before. Was I in the wrong? maybe. I honestly don't really know how I feel about it at this point. There have been good arguments for both sides of it. Right now I'm in agreement that it is a bit of a shady practice... but at the moment I am not really sure if it is Dendroboard's responsibility to enforce it. 



Pubfiction said:


> Second how does a classifieds section at all fit with the mission if you so strictly define it and feel that information is what this site is all about? Why not remove the classified section then and tell people to do that elsewhere?


Don't get me wrong, the classified section can serve as a great aid to the community. I just don't think it is what drive this community. It does offer us some benefits like being able to weed out the people that have caused harm to members in the past. The ability to post there is a privilege that can be revoked. I know the forum isn't the center of the entire hobby, but eventually (though sometimes not as quickly as we would like) bad dealings do get brought to light and people exposed for things. The forum has the ability to serve as a place people build (and lose) reputations... and then the classifieds section connects those people with new members and new frogs. To me, that is important.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Maybe not to you.
> 
> Sometimes the best way to point out the absurdities of someone's argument is a simple satirical summarization of their ridiculous statements.


 Until someone does it to you.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> I do mean it... and to be honest I don't know the answer to that question. I'm hoping to learn both sides of the story via this thread and make my own opinion. Anyone can look at my old ads... I've done exactly this before. Was I in the wrong? maybe. I honestly don't really know how I feel about it at this point. There have been good arguments for both sides of it. Right now I'm in agreement that it is a bit of a shady practice... but at the moment I am not really sure if it is Dendroboard's responsibility to enforce it.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, the classified section can serve as a great aid to the community. I just don't think it is what drive this community. It does offer us some benefits like being able to weed out the people that have caused harm to members in the past. The ability to post there is a privilege that can be revoked. I know the forum isn't the center of the entire hobby, but eventually (though sometimes not as quickly as we would like) bad dealings do get brought to light and people exposed for things. The forum has the ability to serve as a place people build (and lose) reputations... and then the classifieds section connects those people with new members and new frogs. To me, that is important.


I would say if you have come this far and not found a clear wrong, then it isn't wrong. 

I have read through most of this thread and what I see is mostly opinions and sob stories. There is only 1 legitimate wrong. A show states that no one is allowed to buy or sell whom is not a vendor authorized by them. So if some one directly states that they will in fact break this rule that is the only time you have a wrong taking place. Now is it your job at dendroboard to police that? No not at all, but if you look at it strictly as a right and wrong issue and you are willing to be the morality police for an independent organization then you could enact this rule based on your criteria of only looking at it being right or wrong. 

However the exact wording and enforcement of the rule would also be something that would need to be carefully fleshed out and presented for review. As I saw the wish and intent of many here I do not think that would be OK or right to say that no one can mention a show in a classified post. Because it is certainly not wrong to mention that you will be attending a show and are looking to trade or sell. Because that doesn't mean that the trade will actually happen on the physical premises of the show unless you explicitly state I will be making trades at the alligator in the front lobby at the show or something to that effect. And unless a trade happens at the physical premises it is not in any way at all wrong. If I walk out to a public sidewalk my trade is not ethically wrong. It is only on the private property of the venue where the venue can make these rules and has jurisdiction.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ecichlid said:


> Until someone does it to you.


Wrong again.

It's obviously this is about your problem with me. I suggest you contact a moderator or the whambulance.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

My response is simple, if you do it for one do it for all. If you are going to ban ads for the amphibian only shows, do it for all shows.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> My response is simple, if you do it for one do it for all. If you are going to ban ads for the amphibian only shows, do it for all shows.


Creating the policy will help us be more consistent with all show-related ads, either by allowing or blocking them all.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

If mods are going to protect sponsors by censoring/blocking ads of members that compete with the sponsor at a show then the mods should also be bound to protect the members of this forum and not allow sponsors to place ads in the classifieds section of the forum. 

And I have no dog in this fight because I do not use the forum to sell or make any money. 

I do believe that the sponsors forget that without the members of the forum they really have no reason to even be here. The sponsors need the members but the members do not need the sponsors.

I have also contacted sponsors of a forum that I knew would be at a show so I could meet them outside the show to avoid paying the admission fee and have never had a sponsor have an ethical problem bringing an animal or product out the lobby or parking lot.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> If mods are going to protect sponsors by censoring/blocking ads of members that compete with the sponsor at a show then the mods should also be bound to protect the members of this forum and not allow sponsors to place ads in the classifieds section of the forum.
> 
> And I have no dog in this fight because I do not use the forum to sell or make any money.
> 
> ...


No one said this is a sponsor protection or it was brought out by a sponsor. If that was the case then there would be thread on revamping the Classified section on tags, logos, website referrals, ect. Plus the use screen names, signatures, avatar, ect as advertisement of non sponsors. This forum is one of the least restrictive that I am a part of when it comes to those matters. 

The issue is do you allow someone to open advertise animals for sale at show when they are not a registered vendor. I am of the opinion if you do it for one you do it for all shows. I see nothing wrong, and I am biased, about people advertising about what they will have on other peoples table, clearly they have made arrangements to do so. I split and share my table and have friends who offer me table space at the big shows like NARBC, Daytona, ect to add variety. 

Other than that, it is really up to DB on weather they feel it is entirely up to the show to police. It is annoying to spend an hour packing, 6 hours round trip driving (plus fuel), table fees to show up and set up at a show to have the same item you are offering sold in the lobby for $5 cheaper. This is why I vend with friends, cause that gets old and I end up having a good time catching up and goofing off with friends at shows.


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> If mods are going to protect sponsors by censoring/blocking ads of members that compete with the sponsor at a show then the mods should also be bound to protect the members of this forum and not allow sponsors to place ads in the classifieds section of the forum./QUOTE]
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Also is there a vendor feedback section for the sponsors of this website?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Just to be clear... this is not going to turn into a debate about sponsor posting privileges or anything like that. They can post in both the sponsor section and the regular section. 

None of that is on our radar and we will not be implementing any change there any time soon.

Lets move on from that and back to the original topic please.

Side note, Hayden... several of the sponsors do have their own feedback threads. I recommend using the "search this forum" function (it is at the top right of the threads just below the page numbers) and finding a specific vendor that way if you wish to leave feedback. If a sponsor doesn't have a feedback thread you are always welcome to message them and encourage them to create one just as you can with an individual. Any other concerns about this can be addressed with myself or another mod privately or in a thread in the "feedback, help desk and questions" subforum.


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## Hayden (Feb 4, 2007)

I am well aware of the search feature and have used it to search for a feedback page for a particular sponsor in which I've had issues with in the past, but there is no feedback section for them and I'm sure there won't be in the foreseable future. Anyway, I'm getting off topic so I'll end my comment with that.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Is there a rule against starting a feedback thread for a sponsor, if one has not already been started? unless of course they are banned from dendroboard.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Guys, we've been trying to keep this thread on topic... I don't want to have to start moving posts around. Please, if you have these questions... ask them in the appropriate place or send a moderator/admin a message.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JJuchems said:


> The issue is do you allow someone to open advertise animals for sale at show when they are not a registered vendor. I am of the opinion if you do it for one you do it for all shows. I see nothing wrong, and I am biased, about people advertising about what they will have on other peoples table, clearly they have made arrangements to do so. I split and share my table and have friends who offer me table space at the big shows like NARBC, Daytona, ect to add variety.


Splitting/sharing a table is all part vending at a show. The show and it's programs are being supported through the ticket sales and the table rentals. 

Back with IAD, the profit sections (everything above the cost, no one got any form of payment for their volunteer time except for some of the speakers (and not a few of them declined the payment)) went to support amphibian conservation. This included things like donations to project Golden Frog and to those who were working on WIKIRI. 

Anytime you have someone using the show's venue as a method to avoid the costs of the show (going into the show, buying whatever inside as opposed to the parking lot), those people are putting their short-term self interest above that of the hobby at large. 

In the case of IAD, it was not only a violation of the show's rules but reducing the amount of money that was going to conservation.. 

The loss of revenue does the same thing to FrogDay as well as Microcosm. A lot of people in the hobby like to talk about how important conservation is to this hobby all the way until it becomes an inconvenience to them or they can save a few dollars, then it becomes just that a little talk. 

If your meeting at a show at least go inside and pay the admission fee and buy something from one of the vendors. If the vendors consistently lose money at a show, then they aren't going to continue to vend at that show and everyone loses in that kind of scenario. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> If mods are going to protect sponsors by censoring/blocking ads of members that compete with the sponsor at a show then the mods should also be bound to protect the members of this forum and not allow sponsors to place ads in the classifieds section of the forum.


I'm not sure how you got to the idea that the discussion is of censorship in favor of the sponsors as some shows I don't thing the sponsors even attend... 

First off... the discussion is about the unregulated use of the regional section to post for sale ads. People aren't using it for just get togethers at a person's house and are using it to advertise parking lot transactions at shows where neither party is vending and can even avoid paying an admission price to the show. 



Jellyman said:


> I do believe that the sponsors forget that without the members of the forum they really have no reason to even be here. The sponsors need the members but the members do not need the sponsors.


The members of the forum do need the sponsors.. for one thing, their economic contribution to the costs of keeping the forum alive help to keep it from being totally spammed by ads from the owners or continually begging for donations to keep it afloat or both... Second, the sponsors pull together a lot of supplies often for a pretty reasonable costs allowing a person to get a number of things from one place. Third, the sponsors are often people with not inconsiderable knowledge and experience whose web sites often contain good information for the hobbyist. 



Jellyman said:


> I have also contacted sponsors of a forum that I knew would be at a show so I could meet them outside the show to avoid paying the admission fee and have never had a sponsor have an ethical problem bringing an animal or product out the lobby or parking lot.


All I can say to this is really dude? Saving those few dollars was that important given the potential long-term consequences? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> First off... the discussion is about the unregulated use of the regional section to post for sale ads. People aren't using it for just get togethers at a person's house and are using it to advertise parking lot transactions at shows where neither party is vending and can even avoid paying an admission price to the show.


Just a bit of clarification... the discussion is mostly about the fact that there is currently no guideline for the actual "frog classifieds" subforum. At the moment, people can post frogs for sale and say "for delivery to Hamburg" or "for delivery to Repticon" and so on without actually being vendors at those shows.

The Regional section posts are just a side topic of this that has come out during the discussion because "informational classifieds" for shows are currently permitted there under the current guidelines.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Ed said:


> I'm not sure how you got to the idea that the discussion is of censorship in favor of the sponsors as some shows I don't thing the sponsors even attend...
> 
> First off... the discussion is about the unregulated use of the regional section to post for sale ads. People aren't using it for just get togethers at a person's house and are using it to advertise parking lot transactions at shows where neither party is vending and can even avoid paying an admission price to the show.
> 
> ...


First off Ed, the issue is also about people simply posting for sale ads in the classifieds and meeting at the show.
Second, the forum would do just fine without sponsor dollars. Probably better. Most members would probably have little problem supporting the site with a $10 per year user fee to eliminate any "economic contribution"(advertising) from sponsors.
Third, how I spend my money is none of your business. And yes, saving those few dollars allows me to do the things I feel passionate about. My dollars are not dictated by how you feel I should spend them.


So I'll simplify my statement. The forum is a tool for the hobbyist to communicate and exchange information. Moderation should be mostly unnoticeable and should be contained to keeping threads on topic and making sure members are being civil to one another. 

I really have nothing else to say on this topic.
unsubscribed


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> Second, the forum would do just fine without sponsor dollars. Probably better. Most members would probably have little problem supporting the site with a $10 per year user fee to eliminate any "economic contribution"(advertising) from sponsors.



Ask VS how that has worked on their 100's of other forums...it killed them. Ask Kyle how that would have worked when this was still a private forum, it does not work. People want free.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

This seems like a difficult policy to enforce because for each post moderators would have to verify whether the poster is a vendor or partnered with a vendor that is registered for the show. Do the moderators really have time to take that on?

I am of the opinion that trades are ok at shows, but sales not so much.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Again - there is NO difference between trades/sales.

Trades are just an exchange of $.

Sales is $ in one direction only.

s


oldlady25715 said:


> This seems like a difficult policy to enforce because for each post moderators would have to verify whether the poster is a vendor or partnered with a vendor that is registered for the show. Do the moderators really have time to take that on?
> 
> I am of the opinion that trades are ok at shows, but sales not so much.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> Moderation should be mostly unnoticeable .
> 
> I really have nothing else to say on this topic.
> unsubscribed


I love how you say this now,until someone calls you out on your crossbreeds or something and then you want us to jump in and "be noticeable".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Jellyman said:


> First off Ed, the issue is also about people simply posting for sale ads in the classifieds and meeting at the show.
> Second, the forum would do just fine without sponsor dollars. Probably better. Most members would probably have little problem supporting the site with a $10 per year user fee to eliminate any "economic contribution"(advertising) from sponsors.
> Third, how I spend my money is none of your business. And yes, saving those few dollars allows me to do the things I feel passionate about. My dollars are not dictated by how you feel I should spend them.


So the guy who tries to save a few bucks by exploiting a loophole regarding shows thinks people would pony up ten dollars to be members of the forum? Somehow I find that more than a little incredulous.. It seems to me that just like the shows you avoid paying fees to attend, you'd be looking for free access as that would fit your modus operendi by your own admission. 

Some comments... 

Ed


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

I'm coming to this discussion late as always, but since I've put on more than a dozen shows and helped with other I think I'm well enough acquainted with the subject to voice an opinion. I have no problem with vendors sharing tables. They paid for the table and within the limits set by the show its their to do with what they wish. I do have a big problem with anyone else selling frogs or supplies, period. The vendors have spent a lot of money attending the show and they shouldn't have to compete with someone showing up to the show with a few extra frogs. There are plenty of places to sell frogs on the internet you don't need to take away some vendors sales because your cheap or lazy. That's what it comes down to. 

I was talking with Jeremy Mott (JL Exotics) this evening about Frog Day last month. Nearly all the vendors had poor sales. Some of those sale were taken away by people selling outside the venue. A number of those vendors may not attend Frog Day again in the future. Not worth the expense. So what, Frog Day disappears after 20 years. You may think I'm being overly pessimistic. The hobby has changed and putting on shows isn't working well anymore. We might see their end in the next decade. My opinion yes, but things aren't working the way they have in the past and we either have to find a new way of doing shows or they will end. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Chuck has given it to you - definitively in my opinion.

There is no room for coattail slackers. Either "invest" in a table or DO NOT MENTION THE SHOW in your Ads.

It's simple. And you're seeing why with Chuck's (and others) opinions.

s


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Perfectly put chuck and Scott! That Is exactly My point as well and where I stand on this too!


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## scoy (Jan 22, 2013)

Isnt there a difference between showing up to a show with a trunk full of frogs and handing off a presold frog?


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

No. People should not be allowed to use shows to advertise if they are not involved. There's really no argument for it that isn't selfish or questionable. Either in the classifieds or regional.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

By the way - if you *LIKE *going to these shows, you need to support them - and not abuse them (and using them to sell frogs outside of the show itself is abuse).

These types of shows are proving less successful than they have in the past (too much of a good thing?). It wouldn't take much too make many of them go away for good.

s


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Should we also ban Scott Smith from posting his shows that occur at the same time as NARBC?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

A legitimate show?

Quit making comments that do not address the topic.

s


Pubfiction said:


> Should we also ban Scott Smith from posting his shows that occur at the same time as NARBC?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I had an experience at a Repticon show here in FL where I was legitimately vending at the show and an attendee walked up to my table, set down his back pack and pulled out a dozen frogs in small cups and asked if I was interested in buying them. I believe Repticon has strict rules against bringing outside animals into the show and security was looking for this indvidual the rest of the day. How does toting around a dozen frogs in a back pack benefit the frogs or the hobby? No deal was pre-arranged with anyone. How does riding on the coat tails of a show help the legitimate vendors? It doesn't. It hurts them, it hurts the show they've paid good money to. If you can't come up with the $50-$100 to purchase a table, split it with some frogger buddies. What have you got to lose? Are people so lazy they'll raise frogs up for 4 months and try to sell them without getting a table and making a commitment to sit at that table for 8 hours on a weekend? That's half the fun of vending at a show. It's all about talking to people, informing people, even people that would never purchase a frog, being an ambassador for the hobby. You never know who you might meet or run into at a show you are vending at. Every show I've ever vended at has been a great time. So even if you split a table with 4 of your frog buddies and each of you has to sit at the table for a 4 hour shift, just do it. Don't be the guy standing outside the doors saying "Psst, buddy. You need a couple of auratus? Have I got a deal for you."


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

I don't think a policy one way or another here is going to make any impact that any vendor will notice.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

I just read this whole thread. I do not believe that DB has any business policing these posts. Please don't attack!!
You asked for opinions. 
Typically aren't the vendor lists public? What is to stop me from looking at the vendor list and saying "Im with Bob at bobs Snakes." My ad gets approved and I meet my person in front of bobs snakes, who cares none about frogs. 
Again, I'm not going to do this. Just a thought. 

Isn't the purpose of this forum to share information and bring people together who otherwise would not know each existed. IMO, you are creating a lot of extra work for yourselves. 
Availabe for pickup at the Hamburg McDonalds...

I do not think people should bring stuff and set up a table in the parking lot. However if I know somebody from PA and they want one of my frogs, saying We can meet up at Hamburg seems harmless to me.
I would think vendors sales are more impulse buys when somebody sees something sitting on the table. I dont know.

just thoughts...


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

ecichlid said:


> I don't think a policy one way or another here is going to make any impact that any vendor will notice.


How can you say that.If each vendor sold 1 or 2 leucs that would have been bought from dishonest backpack guy,that would pay for their table,then the other frogs sold would be for gas,tolls,cost to raise the frogs ,leaving possibly a small profit,enough for them to decide to vend at the next show,but once you have a couple greedy,lazy backpack guys under cutting the vendors and they start to lose those sales,then they don't make money,decide not to do anymore shows which in turn, the whole show loses money eventually closing it for good.It's simple math and will eventually happen whether you see it or not.

That and it's just lazy and wrong.You may think policy here won't make a difference,but we don't have to advertise for the deadbeats doing it and to some degree it will make a difference.It's always going to happen,but I don't understand why it's so hard to do it discreetly.There is no reason to have to advertise in an ad that you are trying to undercut the show.If you are selling frogs and post local only and you are within the general area,and someone is interested,they will pm you and ask if you are going to the show.It's really not rocket science,


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Depending on time - I'd follow up.

Also - it would say a lot about ... YOU.

s


joshbaker14t said:


> I just read this whole thread. I do not believe that DB has any business policing these posts. Please don't attack!!
> You asked for opinions.
> Typically aren't the vendor lists public? What is to stop me from looking at the vendor list and saying "Im with Bob at bobs Snakes." My ad gets approved and I meet my person in front of bobs snakes, who cares none about frogs.
> Again, I'm not going to do this. Just a thought.
> ...


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

This is just a reflection of the way the hobby is going. Everyone's a "breeder" looking to unload frogs, at whatever cost. Everyone is undercutting, everyone is trying to unload surplus, or import and resell at over 100% markup. The days of going to an established breeder/ vendor are over for this hobby. All these hobby breeders are looking to make $$ however possible ( who can really blame anyone for wanting to make $$?) but it hurts the vendors: sponsors etc in the long run. I don't think many people think about that. And why should they care? Private hobbyists are importing all kinds of cool shit from Europe, or getting breeding age frogs from understory thst are breeding for them within a week of getting them. These hobbyists don't NEED bigger vendors anymore, so why should they care? The whole piggybacking onto vendor/ show ads to me seems like a shitty thing to do- but you can't blame these people for wanting an easy way to make $. 

Unless the hobby changes- I see this as the new status quo- not going away anytime soon. 
Even if they don't specifically take advantage of vendors/ show ads... These transactions are still going to happen at a table, or in a parking lot. Reptile/ herp/ exotic breeding seems to be more about a way to make $$ than a way to appreciate these animals these days. Until that mentality changes- expect things to get worse for people who pay to play at these events

To put my 0.02$ in to the original question- don't bother moderating it. It's gonna happen regardless, and peoe will find a way to do the same thing regardless. If keeping these shows going is important to people- they'll do the right thing. If not- there will just be a complete absence of frog vendors at these shows and it will become 99% ball pythons/ leopard geckos instead of 97.5%.

I see better sales at regional meets, where the community is closer knit and more supportive of each other'. But that can only persist for so long too. A consistent influx of new hobbyists certainly helps, but eventually it's the same people passing the same stuff .


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

There is one other thing I forgot to mention. And that is that neither Jeremy or I made any money on the show - for entrance fee, for tables, for anything but our own supplies and the animals we sold at our tables. We donated all the money we collected and it went to conservation programs or helped to pay for putting on the show. So by robbing the vendors of potential sale you maybe ultimately be harming conservation projects. I see here on Dendroboard people saying they support conservation - well attending shows like Frog Day and Microcosm is a good way to do just that. 

Best,

Chuck


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

We recognize it will happen. We (OK - me and at least one other ... ) are against blatantly doing this.

We've said all along - if this is what you want to do, be subtle about it.

I'll say it again - it's happened all along - but the line is crossed when you advertise your availability to bring frogs to a show that you have *not* paid to Vend at - and others have.

This crosses the line - and is completely unacceptable.

s


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Given the feedback from this thread I am withdrawing my vendor status at NAE and I will be in Indy near Butler University on Aug 9 with several frogs for sale. We can meet at McDonald's. I need my half cut sweet tea. 




My question is: does that sound ridiculous?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Scott said:


> A legitimate show?
> 
> Quit making comments that do not address the topic.
> 
> s


Look no one here is even arguing the core and only reasonable argument, it was mostly me stating the legit argument isn't that sad? What people here are arguing is different. People are making the claim that these pre arranged trades are going to kill shows, stop vendors from attending and destroy donations to non profits sounds like Armageddon for the hobby doesn't it? They are claiming it is clear and irrefutable that these things will happen, the fear mongering could scare me strait to hell. And their solution to the problem is to try to enforce and extend the local monopoly a show has and limit freedom of speech. 

So it immediately becomes clear to me that Mr. Scott Smith is in fact a part of this problem based on vendor comments. After all he runs a show which he conveniently schedules during the NARBC show, with cheaper entrance fees and cheaper vendor fees. And he makes no mention of how much if any of his proceeds go to charity. So maybe Dart Froggers will see lost sales at NARBC due to people who go to Scott Smiths show instead, or first and buy cheaper products. Here after they will stop attending NARBC, the show will go bankrupt and USARK will fire their unpaid interns. 

So why shouldn't we legitimately tell Scott Smith that he either schedules his show for a different weekend or stops posting? If I rent a room in a hotel near the show and tell anyone they can come trade at my place for $1 and hang out and drink beer does that make me a legit show? What if I donate my $10 in profits to USARK? What about if I meet at buffalo wild wings after the show and trade? At what point do I become a legit show and at what distance from a show does the local monopoly end?

My comments are no less legitimate than many other here such as Chuck pointing out that he made no money. What does how much money you made at a show matter to a policy at an internet forum? Should we not enforce this rule against NARBC because they are laughing all the way to the bank with a half a million dollars in admission fees while only farting 22K over to USARK, much of which was actually donated by vendors / patrons? I think we can all clearly say we have no chance of knowing how much money everyone is making at shows and therefore it is ridiculous to make any arguments or decisions based on those anecdotes. Some people are losing their shirts, others are making it rain its just business something many of you would do good to read up on a little before blaming all your problems on a random hobbyist trading frogs out of his backpack, maybe he's just a smarter business man who knows?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I just read here that if dendroboard doesn't stop this, all the shows are going away. Frogs are such a small percentage of the animals being sold at the shows. The majority being snakes and geckos. Oh and during conversation with show promoters, a dry goods vendor is key to the shows. Are we being dramatic here to stress a point or does dendroboard really think there reach of control goes beyond this forum? Burger stands at mcdonalds....as if people are in the parking lot setting up a table....not at any shows I have gone too. A few people bringing something to unload into a show....sure of course it happens. Probably has been for years. I would imagine if anything ruins the shows it's that market in general, being over saturated, online sales more abundant, and people not willing to drop as much money on animals like in the past (snakes).


I just read frogparty's post....I agree with his point for the most part. At least at the bigger shows I wouldn't think the frog vendors would stop attending. Tables are something hard to come by at some of those shows.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I had an experience at a Repticon show here in FL where I was legitimately vending at the show and an attendee walked up to my table, set down his back pack and pulled out a dozen frogs in small cups and asked if I was interested in buying them. I believe Repticon has strict rules against bringing outside animals into the show and security was looking for this indvidual the rest of the day. How does toting around a dozen frogs in a back pack benefit the frogs or the hobby? No deal was pre-arranged with anyone. How does riding on the coat tails of a show help the legitimate vendors? It doesn't. It hurts them, it hurts the show they've paid good money to. If you can't come up with the $50-$100 to purchase a table, split it with some frogger buddies. What have you got to lose? Are people so lazy they'll raise frogs up for 4 months and try to sell them without getting a table and making a commitment to sit at that table for 8 hours on a weekend? That's half the fun of vending at a show. It's all about talking to people, informing people, even people that would never purchase a frog, being an ambassador for the hobby. You never know who you might meet or run into at a show you are vending at. Every show I've ever vended at has been a great time. So even if you split a table with 4 of your frog buddies and each of you has to sit at the table for a 4 hour shift, just do it. Don't be the guy standing outside the doors saying "Psst, buddy. You need a couple of auratus? Have I got a deal for you."


I agree with Rusty about briging frogs to a show to sell, should not happen be it a dozen or a trio but there is a difference in this and me selling a pair of frogs to someone here in Florida and finding out they are going to a show that I am going to and giving them the frogs at that show....this could be then pushed into a gray area by the person saying what else do you have for sale that you can bring as well. Now is me bringing frogs to hand off at a show considered me selling at a show? I feel bringing frogs to sell at a show without participating in the show is wrong no matter what type of show it is but I don't feel handing frogs off at a show is selling at a show. Some one brought it up in a previous post in saying "delivery to hamburg", if I am going to Hamburg and so is someone else handing them off to me is always the best delivery method. I always hand deliver frogs if possible, now the difference in this scenario... title a post Delivery to Hamburg....wrong if you are not a vendor but at the end of list of frogs for sale, i am going Hamburg and can give you the frogs there, or even local delivery available, similar yes but a subtle difference and OK in my book. Every regional section has had shows listed, usually those that list frogs for sale at the shows are those vending at the shows. I don't see a lot of ads here in the southeast where people are blatantly trying to circumvent buying a table and reaping reward from a reptile show going on. I don't see a need for mod intervention here in the south east but I don't vend at shows, maybe somebody who buys a table here has a different opinion on that.
Chuck i also heard frog day was tough for vendors but this used to be the show where new, different, RARE many times showed up for the only time in a year, sadly the new and rare seem to happen pretty often these days, someone mentioned oversaturation...here here to that comment. The opportunity to purchase something rare dart frog wise happens nearly on a monthly basis these days, between Understory, CRARC, Tesoros, WIKIRI and Central American imports there seems to be a never ending list of new and different options for those with $$ to spend, this without a doubt has done far more damage to amphibian events than someone selling some frogs that does not have a table.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

For the people who are advocating ads that do not mention the show's name: What good does it do to stop a "parking lot" transaction? Who are we trying to fool here? The buyers, the shows' vendors, the mods, the shows' rules? What if a show says "Frogs can be delivered at (city name) next weekend" instead of "Frogs can be delivered to (show name) next weekend." Is there any different? 

By asking "parking lot sellers" to be subtle in their ads here on DB, aren't we condoning bad practices (being shady, circumventing rules, and still undercutting shows' vendors)? 

Ultimately, I go back to a question from earlier in the thread: Why is Dendroboard responsible for controlling if a person submitting for sale ads has a table at a show or not? Who/what are we protecting, and why?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mark, 

I edited down the post to the one sections so if you feel it changes what you were saying then my apologies but I want to make a point I personally witnessed happening at IAD. 



markpulawski said:


> I don't see a lot of ads here in the southeast where people are blatantly trying to circumvent buying a table and reaping reward from a reptile show going on.


Mark, while you go into the show, does the person you delivered the frog to go into the show or since many shows don't admit outside animals (a rule to help support vendors...) do they then just leave? If that is the case then while your not necessarily not depriving the show of funds (just possibly vendors at the show), the person your selling to is certainly using the show to get the frogs. Hand delivery while often ideal, is only ideal if the frogs are able to avoid the issues such as being left in the box for extended periods of time or having the box exposed to extremes of temperature. 

Yet we had a person in the thread admitting to setting up a sale to meet in the parking lot just to avoid paying the admission fee to the show. 



markpulawski said:


> Chuck i also heard frog day was tough for vendors but this used to be the show where new, different, RARE many times showed up for the only time in a year, sadly the new and rare seem to happen pretty often these days,


The problem wasn't limited to just frogday. It was also a problem for the IADs and it did have an impact on the sales as well as the total amount of money raised for conservation. One year a person brought a bunch of cb golden mantellas and didn't sell a single one of them. Another vendor decided to not vend the following year and instead invited people to come out to meet at his house.. 

And yes we had people come to IAD, meet up in the parking lot transfer frogs and both parties leave without either person even coming into the show. 




markpulawski said:


> someone mentioned oversaturation...here here to that comment.


If oversaturation is the problem, then it actually becomes more important to support the sponsors even if you don't purchase the frogs from them... get supplies from them, plants from them. People tend to forget that species popularity tends to run in cycles and sometimes those vendors are the people who keep some of the animals extent in the hobby. It's too easy to let something go extinct because the sell price gets too low. 

The following is just an addition comment

Some of this is the fault of the hobby and the focus on certain frogs as being "better" starter frogs. For some reason a number of years ago, people started pushing leucomelas over many other frogs that are just as easy to keep. This has certainly pushed the population of leucomelas higher as possible issue. 
The old recommendations used to include tinctorius and auratus giving the potential newer person a wide choice of frogs with which to start the hobby. Back in the late 1990s and early 2000s the influx of thumbnails and then pumilio decreased the interest in the larger dendrobatids resulting in a number of them becoming less common. It has only been relatively recently that we've started to see an uptick in those animals being sold again. 

There is also the "status" of having bred a frog artificially inflating the population by demand for sexed pairs as this gives those who are looking for status the fastest path...... (I have to admit that breeding a dendrobatid doesn't impress me as much as keeping the same frogs alive for a decade or more...) As a result of this inflation, people are having to hold onto frogs longer which results in a greater desire to move animals that those who want pairs aren't interested in acquiring until they are older. This in turn can drive the price of younger frogs down as there has to be a compensation to make the same more desirable to the buyer. The way to resolve this is for people to get over the whole "negative" connotation to flippers and sell to some resellers. People should pick one or more of the resellers that have a decent reputation and sell their surplus animals. This accomplishes more than one thing, the first is it lowers the pressures on a breeder to sell cheaply to the hobby, it increases the pool of buyers for the frogs, it expands the people who join the hobby and it puts a group of frogs that are much more likely to do well in the care of people as they are not wild caught stressed animals and finally it helps support the sponsors and those who put on the shows by increasing the supply of animals at a reasonable price and those who will go and look for the frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> I feel bringing frogs to sell at a show without participating in the show is wrong no matter what type of show it is but I don't feel handing frogs off at a show is selling at a show. Some one brought it up in a previous post in saying "delivery to hamburg", if I am going to Hamburg and so is someone else handing them off to me is always the best delivery method. I always hand deliver frogs if possible, now the difference in this scenario... title a post Delivery to Hamburg....wrong if you are not a vendor but at the end of list of frogs for sale, i am going Hamburg and can give you the frogs there, or even local delivery available, similar yes but a subtle difference and OK in my book.


I haven't totally made up my mind yet on this... but this is generally where I am. For someone to post an entire ad with the title like "Hamburg availability" and to not actually be a vendor is really shady. That makes it seem like you are a vendor and/or affiliated with the show, when you are not. However, if someone is posting items for sale anyway and just offers that as a meeting point... I don't see the problem. If it is worth both of them making the drive to that show they are likely close enough already that they could meet up somewhere else and this very well could be a "hey I can grab some other stuff while I'm there too".

To me... having a pre-arranged sale between two people that may not have made the trip and someone walking around at a show with extra cash burning a hole in their pocket could be seen as a potential boon to the show. I think people would be hard pressed to find any legitimate information substantiating their claims that pre-arranged sales _really_ hurt their business. That is why part of me believes it is not Dendroboard's job to enforce this rule. It will be a lot of work and a lot of headache over something that would be tough to prove.

Also, this may be getting a bit off topic... but any discussion about "everyone being a breeder" and "undercutting each other" should be directed towards vitamins. Most of these frogs are not difficult to breed and since I first started here the improvement in vitamins/supplements has made the tadpole survival rate jump big time. (SLS? whats that? oh here... this will fix it but now you'll have 400 vent froglets) *That* is what is driving prices down. Availability is WAY up. Allen Repashy has done a great thing for the health of our frogs but apparently a disservice to everyone trying to make money off of them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JPccusa said:


> Ultimately, I go back to a question from earlier in the thread: Why is Dendroboard responsible for controlling if a person submitting for sale ads has a table at a show or not? Who/what are we protecting, and why?


We have seen one amphibian show go extinct... we know another one is having trouble raising funds and could also go extinct. I know of other shows that while not totally amphibian oriented go under and I've seen a decline of cb amphibian vendors at one show decline over the years (in part due to insufficient sales). 

Does Dendroboard want to overtly allow the problem, tacitly encourage the problem or take some other action? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I just read here that if dendroboard doesn't stop this, all the shows are going away


Greg, 
One show did go away. Another one as noted by Chuck is having issues as the vendors didn't do well. How many does it take before it becomes an issue? 

I've seen a decline over the years in the number of people offering cb amphibians due to costs of vending. How many people have to stop selling at a show before all that can be purchased there are wild caught animals that are more of an after thought to the regular reptiles? 




mydumname said:


> Frogs are such a small percentage of the animals being sold at the shows. The majority being snakes and geckos. Oh and during conversation with show promoters, a dry goods vendor is key to the shows.


So your okay with the amphibian oriented shows going under as long as you can still to Hamburg? Do you even remember the old Pottstown show? Vendors stopped using that show due to insufficient funds and it went under. It was resurrected briefly but then one of the people passed away and it went under a second time. 



mydumname said:


> I just read frogparty's post....I agree with his point for the most part. At least at the bigger shows I wouldn't think the frog vendors would stop attending. Tables are something hard to come by at some of those shows.


If you don't make enough sales to cover the trip, table and food, why would you continue to vend at a show where all you do is lose money? Not a sustainable business model. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> The way to resolve this is for people to get over the whole "negative" connotation to flippers and sell to some resellers. People should pick one or more of the resellers that have a decent reputation and sell their surplus animals. This accomplishes more than one thing, the first is it lowers the pressures on a breeder to sell cheaply to the hobby, it increases the pool of buyers for the frogs, it expands the people who join the hobby and it puts a group of frogs that are much more likely to do well in the care of people as they are not wild caught stressed animals and finally it helps support the sponsors and those who put on the shows by increasing the supply of animals at a reasonable price and those who will go and look for the frogs.


I'm with you on this one... I've never understood the negative connotation given to flippers... It is only bad if you are concealing the source and lying about what you are really selling. Beyond that, what does it matter


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> Look no one here is even arguing the core and only reasonable argument,
> 
> If this was the core and reasonable arugment, then other people would be arguing it.
> 
> ...


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

carola1155 said:


> I'm with you on this one... I've never understood the negative connotation given to flippers... It is only bad if you are concealing the source and lying about what you are really selling. Beyond that, what does it matter


I think most of the concern about flippers stems from those people who have been notorious flippers in the past and how they treated their animals. If a person wants to buy and resell, but takes good care of the animals and offers good quality animals and is up front about it, I guess I'm ok with that.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

As someone who occasionally vends at shows I have no problem with people who have arranged deals via whatever classified using the show parking lot to do the transaction.

I think most of these transactions would have taken place anyway but since one or both parties where going to be attending the show it is a matter of convenience, whether they do it at the show parking lot or a restaurant next store really does not matter to me, either way it seems better for the animal then shipping it.

If someone came to a show with a surplus of animals that had not been prearranged to sell or trade and was selling them in the parking lot then I would have a problem.

I think the intent of most of these posts is innocent and the point of mentioning the show is to make it easier to complete the transaction in person because the two parties where going to be in the same place anyway.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I think most of the concern about flippers stems from those people who have been notorious flippers in the past and how they treated their animals. If a person wants to buy and resell, but takes good care of the animals and offers good quality animals and is up front about it, I guess I'm ok with that.


It goes much further than that. If you look at some of the old threads, there are a lot of arguments to never do it regardless of who the reseller is... See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/de...-sticky-bulk-sales-seller-discrimination.html 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/82814-least-expensive-frogs.html 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I loose track of points when this many posts are involved but has any one mentioned the great possibility that right after a parking lot sale is finished the seller will likely walk right in to the show and buy frogs they don't have from a vendor?

It's hard enough being there without money to spend....but if it's in my pocket...it won't make it out with me.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ed said:


> It goes much further than that. If you look at some of the old threads, there are a lot of arguments to never do it regardless of who the reseller is... See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/de...-sticky-bulk-sales-seller-discrimination.html
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/82814-least-expensive-frogs.html
> 
> ...


Which is why I said, *most*.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdooley195 said:


> I loose track of points when this many posts are involved but has any one mentioned the great possibility that right after a parking lot sale is finished the seller will likely walk right in to the show and buy frogs they don't have from a vendor?


If this was the general practice then it would probably be of much less concern but how many people are going to stash the animals in the car (at risk of overheating or getting too cold) while they go into the show to make purchases? 

I often point out that the frogs are much tougher than people often give them credit for particularly since they are getting a much better diet but the general idea in the hobby is that they are very sensitive to many thing... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Which is why I said, *most*.


Doug,

It wasn't that long ago, when the position was to never sell to any people who resell... regardless of who they were/are. That is what those threads show the idealogy behind the position 

Some comments 

Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ed said:


> Doug,
> 
> It wasn't that long ago, when the position was to never sell to any people who resell... regardless of who they were/are. That is what those threads show the idealogy behind the position
> 
> ...


I'm well aware of that, thank you.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> If this was the general practice then it would probably be of much less concern but how many people are going to stash the animals in the car (at risk of overheating or getting too cold) while they go into the show to make purchases?
> 
> I often point out that the frogs are much tougher than people often give them credit for particularly since they are getting a much better diet but the general idea in the hobby is that they are very sensitive to many thing...
> 
> ...


Ya, I wouldn't chance it.

I should've elaborated a bit...I mean if someone were to advertise here and bring per sold frogs to meet up with...that the seller is going to walk right into that show afterward and likely get something they don't have.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

I think flippers get a negative rep because the being a "flipper" implies you are primarily interested in the hobby to profit from it rather then an appreciation for the traits and husbandry of the animals. I'm not saying this is always true but it certainly is in a lot of cases.

I have much more respect for vendors when I see them selling animals they bred and raised themselves rather then those that ship in most of there stock from out of state or cross country from who knows where.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

To answer your question Ed, yes I and anyone I have ever brought anything to at a show have gone into the show and walked to see if anything could entice us...usually ending up with some repashy day gecko food or the like but rarely if ever have I bought an animal at one. I think Tom mentioned it, if someone handed me the money for the frogs they got at the show there was strong likely hood some of that money was going be left at the show be it for some type of supplies or even a plant or 2. You also mentioned IAD, I throw all 3 big events into the hurt by the new stuff showing up regularly, people used to go to all of these events to find the new and rare stuff, even the Daytona Expo was the site where new morph Tincs used to show up but no more. These new and arguably rare frogs are showing monthly through ads here or Face book or some other method. Do I buy from vendors, usually supplies and some more than others. i just 2 weeks ago got my repashy from Folious but my frogs if not imports or frogs from Understory or someone that has bought from Understory. I will expand that to tesoros as soon as some of the yellow Auratus become available. Frog hobbyist activites of any type certainly don't effect the typical reptile show, we do however influence IAD, Microcosm and Frog Day. It will be interesting to see how successful the amphib expo in Indy does this summer, hopefully Jason will not ruin it by selling frogs at the Waffle House.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> If this was the general practice then it would probably be of much less concern but how many people are going to stash the animals in the car (at risk of overheating or getting too cold) while they go into the show to make purchases?
> 
> I often point out that the frogs are much tougher than people often give them credit for particularly since they are getting a much better diet but the general idea in the hobby is that they are very sensitive to many thing...
> 
> ...


I would *hope* that if someone was actually doing this... that they would plan ahead and be prepared to store the animal for a little while... A nice thick cooler with some phase packs will do just fine for the hour or two it takes to wander around a bit at a show.

Again... I HOPE that's the case... if it isn't these people shouldn't have the animals in the first place. It doesn't take too much planning and some common sense (park in a garage or the shade if you can, etc).


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Every animal I have ever handed off has gone into a cooler with some type of gel pack but living in Florida people have to prepare for the heat. Most people have even carried them into the show and walked around with them in the cooler if that is permitted.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Ed said:


> ...And yes we had people come to IAD, meet up in the parking lot transfer frogs and both parties leave without either person even coming into the show.


Why do you think that transaction was related to the show at all? They could have picked a different time and location to make that transfer and still do not go inside the event. 



Ed said:


> We have seen one amphibian show go extinct... we know another one is having trouble raising funds and could also go extinct. I know of other shows that while not totally amphibian oriented go under and I've seen a decline of cb amphibian vendors at one show decline over the years (in part due to insufficient sales).


Is this an indication that the vast majority of consumers want something different and that the days of shows with thousands of attendees and hundred vendors are reaching an end, as someone else in this thread suggested earlier?

At the same token, isn't it naive of us to think "parking lot sellers" (which may include pre-arranged transactions) have the ability to demise legacy reptile shows, and if we truly believe so, shouldn't, then, the entire classifieds section be eliminated in order to support the shows' sales? 



Ed said:


> Does Dendroboard want to overtly allow the problem, tacitly encourage the problem or take some other action?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


* Overtly allow the problem = Mods do not monitor any ads that mention the show's name.
* Tacitly encourage the problem = Mods only allow ads from non-vendors that do not mention the show's name (sneaky route). 
* Some other action = ?

I believe what you call "the problem" is the continuous decline of shows' attendance and revenue, which in part affects conservation efforts. Am I correct? 

What we are trying to determine here is where to draw the line Dendroboard/Shows, but I understand this is a very sticky subject as there are many facets to it - the forum members, sponsors, conservation, hobby vs. business, etc.

Keep the ideas flowing. Good discussion.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed said:


> Greg,
> One show did go away. Another one as noted by Chuck is having issues as the vendors didn't do well. How many does it take before it becomes an issue?
> 
> I've seen a decline over the years in the number of people offering cb amphibians due to costs of vending. How many people have to stop selling at a show before all that can be purchased there are wild caught animals that are more of an after thought to the regular reptiles?
> ...


What's the personal stab at me going to hamburg? I didn't even mention it in that post. I go there cause I have a good time. I don't sell frogs for a living. I make enough at my day job that I don't need the frog income.

I attended and vended at frog day this past year as well. I think there would be other issues why people would back out of vending again....not cause of ads on dendroboard....based on how the show went.

Yeah it sucks about IAD. Why did that one stop though? That to date was still my favorite show.

As for a business model, if you can't cover your expenses vending at hamburg, I'm sure you have bigger issues then ads on dendroboard.


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

I will admit I am guilty of "parkinglot handoff". That being said it was prearranged deal he had what I wanted so I bought them. In process of deal was disclosed we would both be attending said event . I posted a want ad for what I was looking for here. Did even one vendor at said show respond to me? No they didn't. They place ads here plenty of them. If one of them responded to my ad I would have more than likely purchased from them. With that being said I still dropped over $800 that weekend. $100 for VIP tickets and around $500 to various sponsers. Point is if your goin to the show your gonna spend money. I don't think there should be ads by non vendors targeting a specific show, I don't think that a few hobbyist exchanging money and frogs is gonna kill said show. If your just gonna meet in lot and not go in you weren't gonna go in in the first place. I personally couldn't attend and not spend my money. That's why wife will be attending all shows with me. And lastly I have never met this backpack guy are his frogs any good?


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> Your conflating your argument in an attempt to make it sound to be the same when it's not the same thing. It would be helpful if you didn't attempt to take the argument off in a direction that isn't the same as an attempt to justify your claim.
> 
> Two legitimate events regardless of when they are scheduled is not the same as the item under discussion despite your claims to the contrary.
> 
> ...


Pretty much all anyone here including yourself are doing is conflation. Yet I am the one you single out only because you think my opinion does not support yours on the issue. 

In fact your argument rests entirely on profits and cash flow... So explain to me exactly how this is not just as legitimate a concern as the inability of a vendor to understand their own business?


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Pubfiction said:


> Pretty much all anyone here including yourself are doing is conflation. Yet I am the one you single out only because you think my opinion does not support yours on the issue.
> 
> In fact your argument rests entirely on profits and cash flow... So explain to me exactly how this is not just as legitimate a concern as the inability of a vendor to understand their own business?


Actually,I agree with Ed 100% You're comparing apples and oranges and nothing to do with the discussion at hand.A legitimate show on the same day as another show is a show.You in a hotel room with a few cheap people ,no that's not a show!


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

oddlot said:


> How can you say that.If each vendor sold 1 or 2 leucs that would have been bought from dishonest backpack guy...


 This is an assumption without any basis in fact. I really don't think this policy, enforced or not, will make a difference on results you see reported by frog vendors at shows. 

I think a much bigger positive impact would result if there were banner ads on DB promoting the shows.


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

oddlot said:


> Actually,I agree with Ed 100% You're comparing apples and oranges and nothing to do with the discussion at hand.A legitimate show on the same day as another show is a show.You in a hotel room with a few cheap people ,no that's not a show!


wouldn't hosting a show on the same day as another show produce the same result this thread about? undermining the vendors etc...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

No,there will be paying vendors at both shows.Both being legit shows,apples and oranges.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

oddlot said:


> No,there will be paying vendors at both shows.Both being legit shows,apples and oranges.


So if I open my hotel room near a show and charge people $1 to come in and trade its a legit show? Or maybe I just open the back of a van?


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## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

Why all the arguing? Look at the results of your poll.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Yep.

The results are in - this is true.

Now let's consider how many people who voted are Vendors (or have been) - and how many are not.

I actually think this poll should have been limited to only Vendors - now or in the last five years. They're the opinion that matter here.

s


TheCoon said:


> Why all the arguing? Look at the results of your poll.


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## TheCoon (Feb 8, 2011)

Scott said:


> Now let's consider how many people who voted are Vendors (or have been) - and how many are not.
> 
> I actually think this poll should have been limited to only Vendors - now or in the last five years. They're the opinion that matter here.
> 
> s


Does this forum serve the whole or just the vendors?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

It serves who they want it to, when they want it to. See missing feedback posts.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

LMAO - see screwed up, malformed, Feedback.

People who can't follow a simple format don't get their Feedback posted. That's what is about.

You wouldn't last a day Greg.

Of course that isn't the topic here.

s


mydumname said:


> It serves who they want it to, when they want it to. See missing feedback posts.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

To be clear, this is how I see it....

"Hey peeps, I will be at Microcosm and/or Frog Day [insert show], and will have some stock to sell off. I didn't volunteer, buy a vendor table nor will I be sitting inside with a registered vendor. I want to meet in the parking lot and sell my animals to you for cash [or prepay] since you might be going to the show too. I don't care if you have extra money to buy inside the show, just as long as you get these animals from me before you enter. Hopefully a paid vendor doesn't have the same stuff inside for better price, or larger, or nicer looking but it doesn't matter anyway since you agreed to buy these from me off my Dendroboard Ad that the Moderators approved!"

Seems a no brainer to me. Down with Censorship!!


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Last a day doing what? I meant feedback being removed for certain people. Not those not following a format.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

There is so much crap in this thread that my head is spinning. My comments have little to do with advertising but with the underlying problem - the shows themselves. Do we want good shows to continue? And what makes a good show? I believe a good show should work towards conservation. I don't go to a lot of show and only have experience with Frogday and Microcosm. These are the two shows I'm familiar with and they are both dedicated to conservation - I prefer it that way. So we, individually and as a hobby, need to decide are we in this hobby for ourselves or, as many state here, are we in the hobby for the frogs? Its really an easy question. Which is more important to you - the frogs in your tank or the frogs in the wild?

Best,

Chuck


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You're acting like we, as moderators, CONTROL THAT.

We do not. It's a rule set in place by the previous owner - followed by the current owner.

WE DO WHAT THE RULES SAY TO DO. Not what we "want" to do.

Me? I'd have that Negative Feedback hanging out there like dirty sheets in the wind. 

Not my decision - or any other Moderators decision. Clear?

BACK TO THE REAL TOPIC PLEASE (even if the topic disgusts me).

s


mydumname said:


> Last a day doing what? I meant feedback being removed for certain people. Not those not following a format.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

TheCoon said:


> Why all the arguing? Look at the results of your poll.


Take a look at the second post in this thread:


carola1155 said:


> Just a couple things...
> 
> This is an anonymous poll so if you want to keep your answer hidden that is fine... However, we do encourage everyone to please share their opinions in the thread here. We understand that the votes may end up getting skewed simply due to the fact there are more people here that aren't paying vendors at the shows than those that are.
> 
> ...


We've been clear about our intentions up front. If I'm going to be brutally honest, this isn't exactly a democracy around here. We have to do what we think is best for the forum. The poll is a great way to get people engaged and interested in the debate.... but the information and the viewpoints shared in the comment section are likely going to weigh more towards the final decision than the vote.

I suspect a lot of the push-back is "you're taking away something I've been doing". If we had never allowed this to begin with, I bet the results would be much different.

Personally, I've tried to stay as neutral as possible in this... I see both sides of the argument. A lot of my questions/responses have just been me playing devil's advocate to try to understand this all better. Part of me says "why is it dendroboard's job to have to enforce this?" but another part of me recognizes that we can lead by example to protect the hobby. That being said, I still haven't seen anything other than anecdotal evidence about shows being "slower" and that is somehow equated to the pre-sale of animals and not on a variety of other factors that have been brought up here.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

chuckpowell said:


> There is so much crap in this thread that my head is spinning. My comments have little to do with advertising but with the underlying problem - the shows themselves. Do we want good shows to continue? And what makes a good show? I believe a good show should work towards conservation. I don't go to a lot of show and only have experience with Frogday and Microcosm. These are the two shows I'm familiar with and they are both dedicated to conservation - I prefer it that way. So we, individually and as a hobby, need to decide are we in this hobby for ourselves or, as many state here, are we in the hobby for the frogs? Its really an easy question. Which is more important to you - the frogs in your tank or the frogs in the wild?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck



I'm totally with you on this Chuck... and I have never had an issue with "protecting" the shows that are raising money for conservation. Especially since most of those shows are actually organized by members and sponsors of this community.

It has been customary in the past to politely ask for no outside sales at Frog Day and Microcosm and people never seemed to have an issue with it.

My big question is why should we be protecting for-profit shows organized by companies that have no loyalties to this community?


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Scott said:


> You're acting like we, as moderators, CONTROL THAT.
> 
> We do not. It's a rule set in place by the previous owner - followed by the current owner.
> 
> ...


I never said moderators...I said "it" meaning the forum. 

What's with every post people infer or change what I am saying? Anyway....


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I am going to say a couple things after doing a little prodding and trying to get to the bottom of the motivations here. First a little about my background, you know because surely someone will say you don’t know if you haven’t done it, and it is relevant to the post suggesting we should only count vendors votes. I am married to an artist, I do art myself, and we are vendors at shows numbering 20-40 per year that are similar to reptile shows but far more diverse. Most are art shows but we also attend orchids shows. The vendor fee of these shows is as little as $25 and as much as $2300 for a weekend. Shows range from inside a small school room to massive multi show complexes that consume the entire central area of a city. I have seen all the stuff in this thread a million times by now. This is the strait answer to all your problems. If you don’t make money it is your fault. You don’t know how to run your business. Maybe it’s because you don’t understand your customers, or maybe because you are terrible at picking shows, maybe your product just isn’t desirable or your prices are out of touch, maybe you shouldn’t be at the show at all because you do not know what a show is really about. The sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you will be free to stop blame shifting and start fixing your problems. If you can’t do that and you give up? Fine make room for someone hungrier to make things work to come in and take over, maybe that is better for the hobby as a whole. The way America works is the ones who aren’t good fail, so stop with this protectionism and force the vendors to work out something that is real and lasting and sustainable on their own. When people say you are going to kill shows, I laugh so hard I can barely stay in my chair, oh trust me someone else will be along trying to grab the power of running a show I can say that for sure. Don’t even get me started, repticon is coming to a neighborhood near you. 

When we attend shows we want as many people there as possible to walk by our stuff, because we intend to deliver a product that the customer likes and want as many chances as possible to make that happen and make a connection a show is in part about developing new leads not about forcing some guy who already knows me to cover my booth fee through a monopoly. Oh but trust me I have run into plenty of artist who think that everything is not their own fault and want to force higher profit through ridiculous measures. Unlike many here I am not so short sighted that I cannot see the value in all people nor am I naive enough to think that the shows have my best interest at heart. I want those people there, the ones who come to a show just to make a trade, end up with some spare money, or make an impulse buy they had not counted on. The ones who are picky and want just the right product and want to see it in person. The patient ones who go all around the show looking at everything. And I pay the show so I can clearly display what I have and I fully expect that show to bring the people. If they don’t I put the blame squarely where it belongs, myself first for not researching the show and its surrounding population and the show for not advertising and bringing people. I do not blame some street artist who setup up on the corner sidewalk.

Now what about the good of the hobby? And that is what this should be about. This should not be about protecting the profit margins of some vendor. It’s not about artificially bailing out a vendor who is incapable of turning a profit. It is hypocritical how many people say it’s all about the hobby and conservation but then flip a comment like someone else undercut me or I didn’t make money. Wait you said it was all about the hobby and conservation? Clearly it is all about the money based on the comments. Well guess what the guy in the parking lot who doesn’t attend the show is probably more like you then you will admit. I personally find it hard to believe that a significant number of people would travel all that way and then just not bother to walk in and see so many of the frogs they love. I happen to think that encouraging shows as a meeting place is good for the hobby, the net flux of free goods that went into the hobby and networking at NARBC seemed like a pretty positive thing to me. If people have a chance to move frogs around and diversify their blood lines more readily and cheaper that is a good thing. It’s certainly better than telling a person their blood line isn’t good enough because they didn’t pay for a table. And granting certain pairs of frogs owned by certain vendors a near genetic monopoly in the hobby. Maybe shows would be smarter to let those people trade in the show so they don’t run away without stopping in as Ed suggested they might do. And that doesn’t even get into the unfair nature of cronyism in the reptile industry at shows, some people get free space at shows because they have buddies. There are shows that won’t allow you to vend because they protect their buddies, and some people don’t have friends to share a table with. And still yet some shows just run out of space. All these issues are the fault of the show promoters. In addition do we want to go down the path and really read the user agreement for the table you purchased and find out if it really is legal for you to sell space to your buddies which was a huge argument in here? None of those issues are supportive of the hobbyist, you know the people this forum is really supposed to be about. 

Look at the other side of any argument you make and stop only leaving it at a one sided issue. I have seen customers who would not pay to get into an art show, I took the art out to them and mentioned there is very nice stuff in there and I even have more stuff to look at. But I have seen so many more customers who came to the show just to get a piece of art from me and then paid to get in and looked at everything else and purchased more than they came for. I have seen crazy artist who ban customers from taking pictures because they stupidly think that will force them to pay for the art or the person is going to copy their design. But I let people snap all the pictures they want because I recognize the possibility that that picture might bring them back, it might be their way of taking notes or maybe they are sending it to someone to check if that person wants the item, I shove my business card out to them and say don’t forget me. At any reptile show I have ever been to there has been no giant line of people milling about on the sidewalk trading, but there has been a line of people waiting to get into the show. I am sorry if this is anecdotal but the claims I have seen here just are not consistent in anything I have experienced in life. And if you all don’t know it yet, I will tell you one more time, the customer is always right if you take the customers out of the poll. Well… figure it out for yourself. When you stop trying to force an increased profit and start trying to earn an increased profit, I think things will get better for you.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

markpulawski said:


> It will be interesting to see how successful the amphib expo in Indy does this summer, hopefully Jason will not ruin it by selling frogs at the Waffle House.


I was just trying to be sarcastic buddy. Already a paid vendor.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JPccusa said:


> Why do you think that transaction was related to the show at all? They could have picked a different time and location to make that transfer and still do not go inside the event.


One of the interesting things at the old IADs was that there was a bar in the hotel lobby so people would sit and chat in the lobby between talks, demonstrations or visiting the showroom. I spoke to some of those who were doing the transaction and they flat out said they knew the show was in town so they could meet up and sell frogs without getting a table. So... anecodotal.... 



JPccusa said:


> Is this an indication that the vast majority of consumers want something different and that the days of shows with thousands of attendees and hundred vendors are reaching an end, as someone else in this thread suggested earlier?


I have doubts that this is the case. In the earlier posts the indication is that the market is saturated but I suspect that is because the forums have primarily focused on selling mainly to themselves so there is a limited demand for certain animals. I spoke with one of the larger vendors at a Have de Grace show not that long ago, and he admitted his overall frog sales were up while animals like ball pythons were flat or declining. He was actually looking for sources for captive bred frogs to diversify his sales. He doesn't go to the amphibian conservation shows to vend so he is selling to the general market. So again anecdotal but interesting. 

The best selection of captive bred amphibians I have ever seen was actually at the very first IAD. There was everything from captive bred toadlets of Pedostibes hosii to several Phyllomedusa as well as a selection of dendrobatids and some other oddballs. 

At the same token, isn't it naive of us to think "parking lot sellers" (which may include pre-arranged transactions) have the ability to demise legacy reptile shows, and if we truly believe so, shouldn't, then, the entire classifieds section be eliminated in order to support the shows' sales? 



JPccusa said:


> I believe what you call "the problem" is the continuous decline of shows' attendance and revenue, which in part affects conservation efforts. Am I correct?


Yes, there are a number of shows that directly support conservation of amphibians and/or reptiles in various ways and anything that hurts the bottom line of the show detracts from amount that would be available for for conservation. 
However it should be noted that supporting the local shows by either splitting a table or selling frogs to a vendor(s) should also be considered as I noted above, the forums are pretty much selling to themselves which is going to drive down the price as well as limit the people who may get frogs that are in good condition as opposed to wild caught animals and be much more likely to stay in the hobby. 



JPccusa said:


> What we are trying to determine here is where to draw the line Dendroboard/Shows, but I understand this is a very sticky subject as there are many facets to it - the forum members, sponsors, conservation, hobby vs. business, etc.


I understand it, and I'm trying to get people to think about the larger picture and how going for the short term gain is probably not the best for long-term interest. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BrainBug said:


> I think flippers get a negative rep because the being a "flipper" implies you are primarily interested in the hobby to profit from it rather then an appreciation for the traits and husbandry of the animals. I'm not saying this is always true but it certainly is in a lot of cases.
> 
> I have much more respect for vendors when I see them selling animals they bred and raised themselves rather then those that ship in most of there stock from out of state or cross country from who knows where.


The problem here is that someone can send frogs to a show for a table with someone else.. Technically the person who rented the table is a flipper as they didn't breed the animals themselves but they know where the animals originated. Under your definition, these people shouldn't get the same respect as another person who actually bred the animals. 

This is part of the whole image thing with resellers and the hobby. There is only so many people on a forum to whom you can market relatively common frogs. The small market is easily saturated and then you have people attempting to save a few dollars any which way they can on getting some frogs. 
People need to sell to those outside of the forums and ideally to those who have a larger audience that may purchase the frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> What's the personal stab at me going to hamburg? I didn't even mention it in that post. I go there cause I have a good time. I don't sell frogs for a living. I make enough at my day job that I don't need the frog income.


I mentioned it because I know you go to it, and your reference about snakes and lizards fits that show much more than it would Frogday, IAD or Microcosm. It's also a common venue for people to conduct parking lot sales. 



mydumname said:


> I attended and vended at frog day this past year as well. I think there would be other issues why people would back out of vending again....not cause of ads on dendroboard....based on how the show went.


So if the ads on the forum for deals in the hotel rooms and parking lot resulted in lost sales for the vendors at Frogday, how does that not play into how the show went? 



mydumname said:


> Yeah it sucks about IAD. Why did that one stop though? That to date was still my favorite show.


A combination of things.. problems with revenue, lack of newer faces willing to do the grunt work to organize it, having to convience vendors that the show should be supported even though they lost a lot of money the previous, year, two or even three years, a lack of participation in the auctions... being able to get new speaker readily.... and the final nail was the hotel changed owners and the vibe was not animal show friendly going forward. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> Pretty much all anyone here including yourself are doing is conflation. Yet I am the one you single out only because you think my opinion does not support yours on the issue.


I'm not the one attempting to compare two shows operating on the same days as the same as someone who takes advantage of a show's presence to avoid the costs of the show. Sorry but the attempted claim of being a victim and the accusation doesn't wash... I've disagreed with more than you... 

Problems with your argument... 
first and right off the bat, the two shows are competing events. This is different than your claim. Neither of the shows is attempting to use the other show for their own personal gain. They both have costs such as liability, rent, utilities and have to recover those costs by renting tables and selling admission. They are competing events... not attempts at what is effectively being a revenue parasite. 

This is in direct contrast to the person in the parking lot who is using the scheduling of the show as a method to benefit themselves without incurring any of the overhead costs. 
This is why your argument is an attempt to conflate two separate issues that are not the same as the same thing. 



Pubfiction said:


> In fact your argument rests entirely on profits and cash flow... So explain to me exactly how this is not just as legitimate a concern as the inability of a vendor to understand their own business?


See above. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

My main motivation isn't (wasn't) about making money. Is about making friends and keeping beautiful frogs. When I was doing Frog Day it wasn't a business it was spending time with like minded people - it was about developing a community, opening my house and making friends I still have today 20 years later. Not everything is about money. I ended up losing a bit of money at the first four Frog Day before I figured things out and I never made much money at it - probably not more than a few cents per hour of work I put in putting the show together. And the problem is less about making money at show than do we want to save these show or should we? The way things are going now they will be lost. I'm not talking about the many reptile shows that have tons of bearded dragons, ball pythons, and leopard geckos. I'm talking about shows that cater to our hobby. Do we want them around in the future - if so things have to change. 

Best,

Chuck



Pubfiction said:


> I am going to say a couple things after doing a little prodding and trying to get to the bottom of the motivations here. First a little about my background, you know because surely someone will say you don’t know if you haven’t done it, and it is relevant to the post suggesting we should only count vendors votes. I am married to an artist, I do art myself, and we are vendors at shows numbering 20-40 per year that are similar to reptile shows but far more diverse. Most are art shows but we also attend orchids shows. The vendor fee of these shows is as little as $25 and as much as $2300 for a weekend. Shows range from inside a small school room to massive multi show complexes that consume the entire central area of a city. I have seen all the stuff in this thread a million times by now. This is the strait answer to all your problems. If you don’t make money it is your fault. You don’t know how to run your business. Maybe it’s because you don’t understand your customers, or maybe because you are terrible at picking shows, maybe your product just isn’t desirable or your prices are out of touch, maybe you shouldn’t be at the show at all because you do not know what a show is really about. The sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you will be free to stop blame shifting and start fixing your problems. If you can’t do that and you give up? Fine make room for someone hungrier to make things work to come in and take over, maybe that is better for the hobby as a whole. The way America works is the ones who aren’t good fail, so stop with this protectionism and force the vendors to work out something that is real and lasting and sustainable on their own. When people say you are going to kill shows, I laugh so hard I can barely stay in my chair, oh trust me someone else will be along trying to grab the power of running a show I can say that for sure. Don’t even get me started, repticon is coming to a neighborhood near you.
> 
> When we attend shows we want as many people there as possible to walk by our stuff, because we intend to deliver a product that the customer likes and want as many chances as possible to make that happen and make a connection a show is in part about developing new leads not about forcing some guy who already knows me to cover my booth fee through a monopoly. Oh but trust me I have run into plenty of artist who think that everything is not their own fault and want to force higher profit through ridiculous measures. Unlike many here I am not so short sighted that I cannot see the value in all people nor am I naive enough to think that the shows have my best interest at heart. I want those people there, the ones who come to a show just to make a trade, end up with some spare money, or make an impulse buy they had not counted on. The ones who are picky and want just the right product and want to see it in person. The patient ones who go all around the show looking at everything. And I pay the show so I can clearly display what I have and I fully expect that show to bring the people. If they don’t I put the blame squarely where it belongs, myself first for not researching the show and its surrounding population and the show for not advertising and bringing people. I do not blame some street artist who setup up on the corner sidewalk.
> 
> ...


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

The ability to get vendors is key to having a show. In the case of those that are fundraisers/conservation supporters a table offsets the cost of the venue/insurance/printing/publicity/advertising. Table fees are the upfront funds to start a show in the black and have the door support the organization(s). Auctions, raffles, ect are just added support. I know of a few I have been a part of without the auctions/raffles there would have been little to no contribution. 

This thread and pole may have damaged the amphibian only shows. Talking with some friends damage has been done.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

JJuchems said:


> This thread and pole may have damaged the amphibian only shows. Talking with some friends damage has been done.


...how has this thread damaged shows? Everything I've seen so far has talked about how there were already issues. If anything, this thread brought them to light so people could talk about them instead of just bickering about them amongst themselves. 

You said yourself on a facebook thread about this "It was a good conversation that needs to be had whether a DB conversation or not. It is a hobby etiquette concern".


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> This thread and pole may have damaged the amphibian only shows. Talking with some friends damage has been done.


How so, Jason?


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

Vendors are only half the problem. This years Frog Day wasn't that well attended and speaking to people who attended neither was Microcosm. Both had more advertising then ever before; lots of advertising. I don't think vendors or advertising were the problem. I also know there were at least a few parking lot sale of expensive frogs. If someone spends there money in the parking lot of the event they are not going to spend it inside. We all have limited funds for such things. There is a problem and preventing people from advertising parking lot sale will help but not really all that much. 

I'm continuing on this thread in the hope that the vast community here will come up with solutions to the problem. How can we run the existing shows (in particular Frog Day and Microcosm) in the future so they are better attended both by vendors and people attending (The profits of both these shows funds conservation). I see over and over here on Dendroboard that people are in favor of conservation. Well then lets find a way to keep some wonderful shows going and support conservation. What more could you ask?

Best,

Chuck



JJuchems said:


> The ability to get vendors is key to having a show. In the case of those that are fundraisers/conservation supporters a table offsets the cost of the venue/insurance/printing/publicity/advertising. Table fees are the upfront funds to start a show in the black and have the door support the organization(s). Auctions, raffles, ect are just added support. I know of a few I have been a part of without the auctions/raffles there would have been little to no contribution.
> 
> This thread and pole may have damaged the amphibian only shows. Talking with some friends damage has been done.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

This thread is sort of overwhelming, so I wonder if we could start a new thread with Chuck's questions as the focus? I think it would be great to work constructively to preserve events like Frog Day and Microcosm. 



chuckpowell said:


> I'm continuing on this thread in the hope that the vast community here will come up with solutions to the problem. How can we run the existing shows (in particular Frog Day and Microcosm) in the future so they are better attended both by vendors and people attending (The profits of both these shows funds conservation). I see over and over here on Dendroboard that people are in favor of conservation. Well then lets find a way to keep some wonderful shows going and support conservation. What more could you ask?
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

JPccusa said:


> *
> The question is: Should the moderation team allow ads of people who are not paying vendors of a show if the show's name is mentioned in the ad?*


Such a simple question, my vote was no, it is still no.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I stated it is a good conversation on etiquette as it was already started. I stated earlier (on deleted post) that damage was already done. Now just keep the conversation going. 

How so: I pointed the thread out to a few vendors/friends for there thoughts. And the general consensus was why vend an amphibian only event. Given the poll numbers majority want to see advertising parking lot availability. Why compete?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

First off Chuck, thank you for being engaged here... Personally, I think your insight has been fantastic. 



chuckpowell said:


> If someone spends there money in the parking lot of the event they are not going to spend it inside. We all have limited funds for such things. There is a problem and preventing people from advertising parking lot sale will help but not really all that much.


I agree, people only have so much money for frogs. That being said... with the internet and availability of these frogs what it is, I know that if I were going to a show I would prefer to know exactly what I am getting. Impulse buying of frogs because "they are available" is a thing of the past. It's not totally dead... but it is no longer the "norm". Most people that frequent this forum know what they want. Going to a show looking for something specific and not finding it would be disappointing... especially if you could have made arrangements ahead of time to have that frog. 

The only times I have ever gone to a local show with the intention to actually buy frogs... was for something I had pre-arranged with a vendor. How did that happen? The vendor posted on this forum what they were bringing to the show. They took the initiative to let people know what they had available. Why a lot of vendors avoid doing this blows my mind. To expect to show up and just make tons of sales off of impulse buys is naive. In this Amazon.com world we live in... people pick what they want and buy it when they want it. Pubfiction hit this one on the head IMO, people need to maybe do a _little_ more work ahead of time and market themselves. Otherwise, someone is just going to order the frogs online or elsewhere... because they KNOW they can get them... instead of driving to a show and spending all that time there on the off chance they may find what they want. So, Mike Novy does this... Jarred Ruffing does this... Ron from Alpha Pro used to do this... and I have bought frogs from them because of it. A little effort goes a long way.

Now, don't get me wrong, chatting with people is great but I don't want to stand in front of someone's table and monopolize their time when they are apparently trying to make money. I've run my own business... I know what it is like to be out there trying to push product when someone is monopolizing your time with no intention of buying. I'll save all the side conversations and bullshitting for the local meet-ups.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

JJuchems said:


> I stated it is a good conversation on etiquette as it was already started. I stated earlier (on deleted post) that damage was already done. Now just keep the conversation going.
> 
> How so: I pointed the thread out to a few vendors/friends for there thoughts. And the general consensus was why vend an amphibian only event. Given the poll numbers majority want to see advertising parking lot availability. Why compete?


ok... but it is not like we have made any sort of final decision about it... People were already doing it. They have been doing it for YEARS. This thread is about whether or not we should be allowing it going forward.

Plus, I'll refer to my first post in this thread again:


carola1155 said:


> Just a couple things...
> 
> This is an anonymous poll so if you want to keep your answer hidden that is fine... However, we do encourage everyone to please share their opinions in the thread here. We understand that the votes may end up getting skewed simply due to the fact there are more people here that aren't paying vendors at the shows than those that are.
> 
> ...


So, what if we do ban it? and what if things still don't improve for vendors at these shows? What is going to be the next scapegoat for people's inability to adapt with the times?

I think Chuck has the right approach here. He's willing to listen and learn... not just be stuck in his ways. That gives me hope for this stuff going forward.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> ok... but it is not like we have made any sort of final decision about it... People were already doing it. They have been doing it for YEARS. This thread is about whether or not we should be allowing it going forward.


I disagree Tom, I would say this part is inaccurate as this forum has protected amphibian only shows for the last several years. It has been posted in the classifieds not post met up ads. 

My point is poll alone just help bring the issue more into light showing the number of active hobbyist who don't care where they sell their frogs. 




carola1155 said:


> I think Chuck has the right approach here. He's willing to listen and learn... not just be stuck in his ways. That gives me hope for this stuff going forward.


I don't believe that is the topic of this thread. Thus why I am sticking to the topic at hand, the classified ads yes or no. If we continue on that thought we add more than what people are willing to read plus a probably more beneficial conversation for its own thread.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

JJuchems said:


> My point is poll alone just help bring the issue more into light showing the number of active hobbyist who don't care where they sell their frogs.


I don't consider that a bad thing. It give shows' vendors a better perspective of the current hobby/market. 

It would be damaging if the thread created the idea of "parking lot sellers" or induced the practice. This thread/poll does neither.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

JJuchems said:


> I disagree Tom, I would say this part is inaccurate as this forum has protected amphibian only shows for the last several years. It has been posted in the classifieds not post met up ads.
> 
> My point is poll alone just help bring the issue more into light showing the number of active hobbyist who don't care where they sell their frogs.


Yes, the forum has protected the amphibian only shows for the last several years... and people still complain about the shows not doing well. I think that's why all this debate has come from it. Part of the original debate behind the scenes about whether we should expand that "protection" to every show. Some, including myself, felt it may be overstretching our hand to protect something that isn't even totally geared towards this hobby and doesn't really have any proven benefit to us. That is why we are having this discussion.



JJuchems said:


> I don't believe that is the topic of this thread. Thus why I am sticking to the topic at hand, the classified ads yes or no. If we continue on that thought we add more than what people are willing to read plus a probably more beneficial conversation for its own thread.


I agree with you here... There probably does need to be a constructive talk about revamping the amphibian shows everyone keeps mentioning. I'll try to start one later if nobody else does by the time I get home from work.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Ed said:


> The problem here is that someone can send frogs to a show for a table with someone else.. Technically the person who rented the table is a flipper as they didn't breed the animals themselves but they know where the animals originated. Under your definition, these people shouldn't get the same respect as another person who actually bred the animals.
> 
> This is part of the whole image thing with resellers and the hobby. There is only so many people on a forum to whom you can market relatively common frogs. The small market is easily saturated and then you have people attempting to save a few dollars any which way they can on getting some frogs.
> People need to sell to those outside of the forums and ideally to those who have a larger audience that may purchase the frogs.
> ...


Yes, that's true, I would have a little less respect for the person offering only animals that they were reselling or selling for someone else rather then seeing the breeder themselves being there. The flippers I was referring to however are not the people who may have some offerings from friends or respected sources, they are the people who bulk purchase animals with the sole intent to sell them, the guy who as an azureus labeled a blue auratus at his table who tells you to feed them crickets.

I agree with expanding the market beyond the hobby, that's why I do shows. I've even sold wholesale to reputable pet stores before but I would still find it distasteful if I sold someone a group of frogs thinking it was for them only to see them turn around and sell the same group for more within a month.

I wasn't trying to define what a flipper was, merely describing what I envision when I hear "flipper" based on my own encounters.
If I had to try and define what an animal flipper was it would look like this...

*flip.per*
_noun_
*1.*An individual not involved with a legitimate business who frequently buys and sells animals based primarily on the monetary value of said animals with the sole intent of reselling the animal for a profit.
*2.* That guy you know who always has really cool animals but never seems to have the same ones for more then a couple months.
*3.*The character and title of a popular television series from 1964-1967. The role of Flipper was played primarily by dolphin actress's Sussie and Kathy and occasionally by dolphin actress's Patty, Scotty and Squirt.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

*Flippers seems to be outside of the bounds of the conversation here. I'd like to table this?*

Now, having said that - I don't have an issue with Flippers. I have an issue with Flippers who are less than honest about the source of their frogs (both when *BUYING* them and *SELLING *them).

s


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> I'm not the one attempting to compare two shows operating on the same days as the same as someone who takes advantage of a show's presence to avoid the costs of the show. Sorry but the attempted claim of being a victim and the accusation doesn't wash... I've disagreed with more than you...
> 
> Problems with your argument...
> first and right off the bat, the two shows are competing events. This is different than your claim. Neither of the shows is attempting to use the other show for their own personal gain. They both have costs such as liability, rent, utilities and have to recover those costs by renting tables and selling admission. They are competing events... not attempts at what is effectively being a revenue parasite.
> ...


If neither show is trying to use the other for gain then why do you suppose that Scott Smith whom runs shows at various times of the month all year long always positions one show directly on the day that NARBC runs? (I think one time he even ran 2 shows in a month to do this) Do you think that this is just a coincidence?

What does the cost structure and overhead have to do with the legitimacy of a show? Everyone and everything has overhead....


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> If neither show is trying to use the other for gain then why do you suppose that Scott Smith whom runs shows at various times of the month all year long always positions one show directly on the day that NARBC runs? (I think one time he even ran 2 shows in a month to do this) Do you think that this is just a coincidence?


He has always ran 2 shows a month except during 4H season when the building is not available. AAE/Scott Smith is the same as the old Lee Watson's Reptile Swap. It has ran this way for over 10 years: 1st Saturday and 3rd Sunday of the month.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> Impulse buying of frogs because "they are available" is a thing of the past. It's not totally dead... but it is no longer the "norm".


Tom, 
I'm going to disagree little with you here. Its not the "norm" in the established hobby but it is very much the norm with people who have yet to join the online community. I've seen a number of people at shows purchase what are clearly impulse buys of dendrobatids. 



carola1155 said:


> Why a lot of vendors avoid doing this blows my mind. To expect to show up and just make tons of sales off of impulse buys is naive. In this Amazon.com world we live in... people pick what they want and buy it when they want it.


If you think about this a little, it should be apparent why it was noted above that amphibian only events weren't worth the vendor's time or costs (and yes, I've had some discussions with some east coast vendors who feel that vending at amphibian only events is nothing but a loss of money). Within the forums, there is a limited market particularly with "beginner" animals. There is a huge amount of competition on the forums to move these frogs... and for those who want to save a few bucks, the people who pay to advertise or pay to support on a forum that has free classifieds is already economically handicapped for recovering costs. This is before the convenience of meeting up at an amphibian only show to save a few dollars. 

This is why I keep pointing out that people need to sell animals to those outside of the forum. 
First off, it helps ensure newer people join the hobby 
second, it reduces the competition that drives the price down so that it can reduce the popularity cycles of the frogs (which is good for captive population conservation)
third, it lets sponsors and vendors have more of a even footing with those selling to the hobby 
fourth, in theory it could reduce people new to dendrobatids from purchasing fresh imports as there would be more captive bred options available to the general public 
fifth decreasing the in-forum sales could encourage people to attend the amphibian only shows as it reduces availability of the commoner frogs.. 




carola1155 said:


> Pubfiction hit this one on the head IMO, people need to maybe do a _little_ more work ahead of time and market themselves. Otherwise, someone is just going to order the frogs online or elsewhere... because they KNOW they can get them... instead of driving to a show and spending all that time there on the off chance they may find what they want. So, Mike Novy does this... Jarred Ruffing does this... Ron from Alpha Pro used to do this... and I have bought frogs from them because of it. A little effort goes a long way.


Setting up a prepurchase with a vendor to pick up from the vendor at the show isn't a problem with the shows. Its enabling the vendor to make cash and its not the same as using the show to avoid purchasing from a vendor. In this discussion, preadvertising seems like a simple fix but does it really benefit them to advertise on the forum where the sponsors have overhead costs that the rest of the forum doesn't so they earn less per frog than the hobbyists in addition to the hobby being able to undercut the vendor's price simply because they don't need the money (as Greg noted) and/or don't that the same costs? 

It also doesn't address the issue about people not going to the show for the information or to meet other people that enjoy the hobby? 

TO me the elephant in the room is the fact that the forums push purchasing only from people who advertise on the forum, have feedback on the specific forum, and who breed all of the frogs that they offer for sale. This policy that is pushed so often on the forums in addition to the other issues enumerated above, push customers not only away from some of the sponsors/vendors but can push people away from the shows as well. While there are a lot of people selling animals they bred at these shows, some also bring other animals for resell so in purchasing animals from them, they are going against on the main things that are commonly pushed on the forums. 
What happens if the sponsors decide that they can't compete with the hobby prices and stop supporting the forum? What do people think happens then? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> If neither show is trying to use the other for gain then why do you suppose that Scott Smith whom runs shows at various times of the month all year long always positions one show directly on the day that NARBC runs? (I think one time he even ran 2 shows in a month to do this) Do you think that this is just a coincidence?
> 
> What does the cost structure and overhead have to do with the legitimacy of a show? Everyone and everything has overhead....


Sorry, I've pointed out how they can't be using each other for gain... I want to know why you think that two seperate events set up by non-affiliated groups are able to use the other show for gain..... For example, the number of people who are able to vend at the show is decreased by the presence of the other show... the number of people who could attend a show is reduced.... 

If you don't understand the how costs and overhead are indications of a legitimate show versus someone who is acting like a monetary parasite, then your being deliberately contrary. 

Some comments

Ed


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## joshbaker14t (Jun 11, 2012)

Ed said:


> ...
> 
> This is why I keep pointing out that people need to sell animals to those outside of the forum.
> First off, it helps ensure newer people join the hobby
> ...


Ed, 

I think this is a good point. Another option would be for hobbyist to wholesale their frogs to vendors. I personally do this. While you may make less per frog, there is much less work involved in the sale. Also it allows you and the vendor to make some money.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> Tom,
> I'm going to disagree little with you here. Its not the "norm" in the established hobby but it is very much the norm with people who have yet to join the online community. I've seen a number of people at shows purchase what are clearly impulse buys of dendrobatids.


I'm with you on that... but if we can acknowledge the "established hobby" (the online community) isn't going to be as conducive to impulse buys... then why is it an issue if the online community pre-purchases? Aren't we then acknowledging that the people vending at a show are looking for the impulse buyers and shouldn't be affected by pre-sales? 



Ed said:


> If you think about this a little, it should be apparent why it was noted above that amphibian only events weren't worth the vendor's time or costs (and yes, I've had some discussions with some east coast vendors who feel that vending at amphibian only events is nothing but a loss of money). Within the forums, there is a limited market particularly with "beginner" animals. There is a huge amount of competition on the forums to move these frogs... and for those who want to save a few bucks, the people who pay to advertise or pay to support on a forum that has free classifieds is already economically handicapped for recovering costs. This is before the convenience of meeting up at an amphibian only show to save a few dollars.


To kinda bring this back to my last point... if what the vendors at shows should be looking for is new people and impulse buyers... then the event needs to think of other ways to draw people in. How many "impulse buyers" of dendrobatids probably went to the show to see snakes or bearded dragons? I'd bet a lot. Piggybacking off of another event that has a larger draw isn't a bad thing. Nobody is going to go to a Kettle Corn festival but you can be damn sure that the Kettle Corn guy is still gonna sell tons of that stuff at whatever festival he goes to. The issue is the size of the hobby and the information that is out there to the general herp enthusiast. I don't think we're past the point of needing the support of the other shows. 



Ed said:


> This is why I keep pointing out that people need to sell animals to those outside of the forum.
> First off, it helps ensure newer people join the hobby
> second, it reduces the competition that drives the price down so that it can reduce the popularity cycles of the frogs (which is good for captive population conservation)
> third, it lets sponsors and vendors have more of a even footing with those selling to the hobby
> ...


I agree with most of this... heck even those guys I wont name down in Tennessee realized that there are plenty of people out there that could join the hobby but haven't yet. They just had a real wacky idea on how to do it and alienated themselves real quick. 



Ed said:


> TO me the elephant in the room is the fact that the forums push purchasing only from people who advertise on the forum, have feedback on the specific forum, and who breed all of the frogs that they offer for sale. This policy that is pushed so often on the forums in addition to the other issues enumerated above, push customers not only away from some of the sponsors/vendors but can push people away from the shows as well. While there are a lot of people selling animals they bred at these shows, some also bring other animals for resell so in purchasing animals from them, they are going against on the main things that are commonly pushed on the forums.


I'm with you on that. A healthy frog is a healthy frog... but a liar is a liar too. There isn't much to argue there. If a vendor is bringing someone else's healthy frogs to sell at a show who cares? Not me. Now, if a vendor is lying about those frogs then there is an issue. Like when someone sells a "proven pair" of vanzolinii that are over a year old but only 2 months ago had that same "pair" vanzolinii on their table listed as 4 months old. I think this is what has pushed the current mentality. People were tired of getting taken advantage of. Reactionary? yes. Avoidable? I don't know.

I think it also comes down to some things being more marketable than others. Bigger frogs sell better at shows than thumbnails... because an outsider buying their first frog wants that big colorful thing that isn't scrunched up in a corner and hiding under a leaf. Thumbnails will probably never have a big appeal outside of the forums and experienced keepers... so prices here are probably just going to continue to be low due to the limited market. When UE releases a new thumbnail people in the hobby go nuts for them and they sell really well... but then when you have things like the adult standard intermedius I can't even sell for $40 each there is clearly something wrong. They are old news. There isn't enough of a market for them within the community and something that small and delicate doesn't appeal to a lot of new buyers. 

Part of me isn't even sure that expanding the hobby will really do that much for them because when people take the time to keep a thumbnail they are eventually going to be breeding them and then trying to sell them right back into the hobby again. At some point people are going to have to keep killing their frogs or they are going to have to not breed them. The advances in supplements have made breeding incredibly easy for pretty much anyone to do. Everyone scoffed at those Tennessee folks for touting their "genius breeder" and talked about how he was just breeding tincs and "they are easy"... yet they still want to turn around and be able to charge high prices and rest on their laurels and make a ton of money on the same frogs that they are selling? It seems a bit hypocritical to me.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> Sorry, I've pointed out how they can't be using each other for gain... I want to know why you think that two seperate events set up by non-affiliated groups are able to use the other show for gain..... For example, the number of people who are able to vend at the show is decreased by the presence of the other show... the number of people who could attend a show is reduced....
> 
> If you don't understand the how costs and overhead are indications of a legitimate show versus someone who is acting like a monetary parasite, then your being deliberately contrary.
> 
> ...


You can easily gain. However as Jason pointed out it was probably just a really crazy coincidence in this case that the 3 times I attended NARBC Scott Smith ran a show at the same time. But that doesn't dismiss the point. Competition with a show and its vendors is the problem cited for trying to limit free communication here. And I argue that if you are to do something as silly and ridiculous as trying to stop people from even mentioning shows in their ads then you have to also extend that argument to any other competition for that show you wish to protect as any of them could be as you put it parasites or bad for the hobby. 

This happens all the time in the art show world. An event gets going and then other people start creating what we call leech shows. It can be as small as a single person sitting on the corner of a sidewalk, or as large or larger than the original show. And it was all definitely done to purposely gain from the other show. Sometimes it eventually kills the original show, other times it becomes a positive feedback and results in both shows growing larger and better. So if you are going to make the claim that a single person in the parking lot is a leech and a problem then you have to also recognize that any other competing entity in the area can be a leech as well, be it from another show, to a local pet store that makes a sale or tries to pick up more sales due to the show or a single person. Now what you seem to be doing is separating them based on overhead, also ridiculous.

Overhead is your own problem and having more overhead doesn't make you more legitimate than someone who has less over head. That is ridiculous because then you would have to say things like someone who is bad at saving money and makes poor decisions is more legitimate than someone who finds cheaper / better ways to complete a task.

A simple example 2 people mow lawns for a living 1 does everything out of his garage and backyard, the other rents a store front. Which one is more legitimate? You just made the ridiculous claim that the second guy is more legitimate because he wastes money on a store front. As a person who knew 2 guys like this I knew guy 1 had higher end clients, obtained both more money and more jobs as well as delivering a higher quality mowing he also paid taxes honestly and did it all by the book. He also had higher profit because he wasn't wasting money. In the real world we say he was just smarter, in your world you are claiming he is less legitimate. 

I repeat clearly and strait forward. How much money a show makes and how much it costs for a show to run are completely irrelevant to how you should treat them or enforce rules for or against them and neither of those issues makes anyone more legitimate than anyone else. It is the show promoters job to decide if the money they are spending results in value that is worth vendors paying for. If the over head is too high its not right or sensible for anyone to simply plop down extra money for the incompetence of a show promoter or vendor in how they structure their business and spend their money. Another counter point what if the parking lot trader flew a first class nonstop plane to get to the show and dropped $1000 to get there, does that make him more legitimate than the local vendor or whom only spent $200 in gas and vendor fees?

What makes something legitimate is if they are abiding by the law. If a person doesn't enter a show and trades on the sidewalk or outside the venue, you have no evidence that they are breaking any rules or law. Once they go home if they claim their sale on their taxes and run by the book they are just as legitimate as ANYONE else. Likewise if NARBC is cheating on taxes or not claiming anything or even allowing illegal activities then they are less legitimate. Legitimacy has nothing to do with your overhead or how big you appear or how apparent your name brand is. If you think it does I have some extenZe to sell you.


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

Put up free banner ads for the show vendors. That will do much more than this proposed policy would.


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## gogi (Mar 21, 2014)

pubfiction said:


> you can easily gain. However as jason pointed out it was probably just a really crazy coincidence in this case that the 3 times i attended narbc scott smith ran a show at the same time. But that doesn't dismiss the point. Competition with a show and its vendors is the problem cited for trying to limit free communication here. And i argue that if you are to do something as silly and ridiculous as trying to stop people from even mentioning shows in their ads then you have to also extend that argument to any other competition for that show you wish to protect as any of them could be as you put it parasites or bad for the hobby.
> 
> This happens all the time in the art show world. An event gets going and then other people start creating what we call leech shows. It can be as small as a single person sitting on the corner of a sidewalk, or as large or larger than the original show. And it was all definitely done to purposely gain from the other show. Sometimes it eventually kills the original show, other times it becomes a positive feedback and results in both shows growing larger and better. So if you are going to make the claim that a single person in the parking lot is a leech and a problem then you have to also recognize that any other competing entity in the area can be a leech as well, be it from another show, to a local pet store that makes a sale or tries to pick up more sales due to the show or a single person. Now what you seem to be doing is separating them based on overhead, also ridiculous.
> 
> ...


here here, pubfiction, cheers


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I've created another thread to continue the conversation about "amphibian shows". 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...nservation-what-hobby-can-do.html#post2004658

Let's take all the side topics over there and leave this thread to it's original purpose:

Is it Dendroboard's responsibility to be regulating advertising of "show related" classifieds posts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> I'm with you on that... but if we can acknowledge the "established hobby" (the online community) isn't going to be as conducive to impulse buys... then why is it an issue if the online community pre-purchases? Aren't we then acknowledging that the people vending at a show are looking for the impulse buyers and shouldn't be affected by pre-sales?


As I noted above, presales with vendors is one thing, they are the ones out supporting the shows and are also typically the sponsors support the forum. 



carola1155 said:


> To kinda bring this back to my last point... if what the vendors at shows should be looking for is new people and impulse buyers... then the event needs to think of other ways to draw people in. How many "impulse buyers" of dendrobatids probably went to the show to see snakes or bearded dragons? I'd bet a lot. Piggybacking off of another event that has a larger draw isn't a bad thing.


This means that the amphibian only shows are going to go extinct then..as those shows are the ones with too little draw and a huge amount of backroom dealing. 



carola1155 said:


> The issue is the size of the hobby and the information that is out there to the general herp enthusiast. I don't think we're past the point of needing the support of the other shows.


Just so I'm clear are you referring to amphibian/conservation shows or the larger all mutlitaxa shows? 




carola1155 said:


> I'm with you on that. A healthy frog is a healthy frog... but a liar is a liar too. There isn't much to argue there. If a vendor is bringing someone else's healthy frogs to sell at a show who cares? Not me. Now, if a vendor is lying about those frogs then there is an issue. Like when someone sells a "proven pair" of vanzolinii that are over a year old but only 2 months ago had that same "pair" vanzolinii on their table listed as 4 months old. I think this is what has pushed the current mentality. People were tired of getting taken advantage of. Reactionary? yes. Avoidable? I don't know.


How about getting people to instead of suggesting to only get them from a breeder from the forum, to check out the sponsors as well and that some of them may vend at a show near them? It isn't hard to expand the message. Also it wasn't all that long ago we had a vendor on the forum who had a lot of support because he had access to "new populations of frogs" and had a shady history and ended up screwing over a bunch of people. That vendor even had people including one moderator going onto another forum and defending that vendor.. So for the whole shady argument isn't as clear cut to me given recent history and even past history. 



carola1155 said:


> I think it also comes down to some things being more marketable than others. Bigger frogs sell better at shows than thumbnails... because an outsider buying their first frog wants that big colorful thing that isn't scrunched up in a corner and hiding under a leaf.


This is a plausible scenario andI have to admit that some of the frogs I've wanted for a long time are in the thumbnail group... Banded imitators is one example. I've just had a lot of other things on my plate for awhile now (right now I'm chasing down some interesting feeder invertebrate facts...). 



carola1155 said:


> Thumbnails will probably never have a big appeal outside of the forums and experienced keepers... so prices here are probably just going to continue to be low due to the limited market.


It wasn't that long ago that I had a conversation about how poorly some of the imported pumilio were selling with a vendor. So it's not just the thumbnails. 



carola1155 said:


> Part of me isn't even sure that expanding the hobby will really do that much for them because when people take the time to keep a thumbnail they are eventually going to be breeding them and then trying to sell them right back into the hobby again.


The hobby needs to shift some of the emphasis and status of artificial rearing towards other aspects of good husbandry because breeding something doesn't really prove that the husbandry is anything special particularly in this day and age of "recipe" husbandry. One of the things that has always really bothered me about the hobby is the short median lifespan of many of the frogs. The changes in nutrition should be pushing the lifespans of the average frog much further than in the past... (maybe I'm too impatient and the trend just hasn't become noticeable yet.). 

Maybe more emphasis has to be placed on letting the parents rear the tadpoles as that will help with several things including reducing artificial selection for adaptation in captivity to the numbers being dumped on the market. 




carola1155 said:


> At some point people are going to have to keep killing their frogs or they are going to have to not breed them. The advances in supplements have made breeding incredibly easy for pretty much anyone to do. Everyone scoffed at those Tennessee folks for touting their "genius breeder" and talked about how he was just breeding tincs and "they are easy"... yet they still want to turn around and be able to charge high prices and rest on their laurels and make a ton of money on the same frogs that they are selling? It seems a bit hypocritical to me.


I think people are still killing frogs with great regularity. I suspect that when it happens now, people either quietly replace them or move onto another morph. We're seeing small swings in popularity of different species and populations right now (at least to my bleary eyes) as opposed to the huge booms and busts in the past. 

I'd still encourage people that instead of using that space to house another species, they should set up a backup group of a species that they have... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pubfiction said:


> You can easily gain. However as Jason pointed out it was probably just a really crazy coincidence in this case that the 3 times I attended NARBC Scott Smith ran a show at the same time. But that doesn't dismiss the point. Competition with a show and its vendors is the problem cited for trying to limit free communication here. And I argue that if you are to do something as silly and ridiculous as trying to stop people from even mentioning shows in their ads then you have to also extend that argument to any other competition for that show you wish to protect as any of them could be as you put it parasites or bad for the hobby.
> 
> .


Edited for briefness.... 
Under your position and argument, people should be allowed to market counterfeit merchandise as not only ethically acceptable but legal. We should as adults know that it isn't ethically correct... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Ed said:


> This means that the amphibian only shows are going to go extinct then..as those shows are the ones with too little draw and a huge amount of backroom dealing.


and that would suck... but apparently their current form isnt working anyway. Is "backroom dealing" the only thing killing them? I doubt it. They need to grow beyond their niche or they will fall victim to their niche leaving them behind.




Ed said:


> Just so I'm clear are you referring to amphibian/conservation shows or the larger all mutlitaxa shows?


I was referring to the shows like Repticon and Hamburg and White Plains... the dendrobatid hobby is so small compared to the larger herp hobby and in order to expand maybe we need to lean on those things to get new members. I think there is a better chance of getting new members into the hobby by converting existing herp enthusiasts at a big show than by just selling within the community of people that attend an "all amphibian" show. 

That doesn't mean the "all amphibian" shows can't exist... just that they may need to be refocused somehow if people are really serious about raising money for conservation. That's why I started that other thread...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

carola1155 said:


> and that would suck... but apparently their current form isnt working anyway. Is "backroom dealing" the only thing killing them? I doubt it. They need to grow beyond their niche or they will fall victim to their niche leaving them behind.


It may be more than the backroom dealing but at some point the vendors are going to stop renting tables, at that point, the show is dead. I've been to large and small shows where talks and field trips are part of the package and where they weren't. To some extent at IAD, people stopped wanting to go the aquarium for a tour... 
I think for some reason the hobby has stopped wanting to see and hear the talks about different aspects of the husbandry. Last Oct, I made it up to Frogtoberfest and gave a much updated talk on amphibian nutrition and how important increased carotenoid availability is to the frogs. I think they had about 20 people show up for the talk. At Midwest Herp conference, I spoke to a much larger audience on the captive husbandry of three species of caecilians.... A similar talk was well received at one of the NY Frogdays. 
I don't know if it is the topics or what but the hobby seems less interested in a broader knowledge base. Look at what happened with the American Dendrobatid Society Newsletter. Chuck Powell had problems getting interest in it after a few years... 




carola1155 said:


> I was referring to the shows like Repticon and Hamburg and White Plains... the dendrobatid hobby is so small compared to the larger herp hobby and in order to expand maybe we need to lean on those things to get new members. I think there is a better chance of getting new members into the hobby by converting existing herp enthusiasts at a big show than by just selling within the community of people that attend an "all amphibian" show.


So your proposing that the amphibian shows expand to other herps? Does that mean that the talks should be on a greater diversity of subjects? To some extent that is what Microcosm is about... 

Already moved over to the other thread 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> Edited for briefness....
> Under your position and argument, people should be allowed to market counterfeit merchandise as not only ethically acceptable but legal. We should as adults know that it isn't ethically correct...
> 
> Some comments
> ...


No counterfeit merchandise breaks laws typically a trade mark or copyright this makes it an actual illegitimate practice, a person trading or selling frogs near a show but not on the physical property is perfectly legal unless there is a specific ordinance or law that says they cannot do it. It does not become unethical until they do it on the property where they are allowed to be so long as they abide by the policy of the facility which may prohibit them from bringing the product onto the property. If such a law exists I have not seen it mentioned so far. I do not believe the typical frogs sold at shows are trade marked unless DFW is there.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Ed said:


> As I noted above, presales with vendors is one thing, they are the ones out supporting the shows and are also typically the sponsors support the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> This means that the amphibian only shows are going to go extinct then..as those shows are the ones with too little draw and a huge amount of backroom dealing.


Presales with vendors are fine but if the vendor leaves the show space to provide a frog to someone outside the doors who is escaping and entrance fee to the show, then the vendor may actually be breaking the rules of the show, especially since most shows I have seen charge the vendors and patrons. That means technically a vendor is cheating the show out of an admission fee if they complete a sale outside of the gates or wherever tickets are checked. But IMO that is a job for the show promoter to police not dendroboard. 

Back room dealings and so on have been taking place as long as shows have been around. Many people seem to be forgetting a pretty key issue here, if a trade happens at a show, it means at least 1 party involved almost certainly must be supporting the show in some way. Otherwise they would have no reason at all to meet at the show. The problems with shows are far more likely to be one of many other issues beside the subject of the OP.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> Is "backroom dealing" the only thing killing them?


 The only thing,Probably not,but it certainly isn't helping, and encouraging it definitely won't help.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Pubfiction said:


> a person trading or selling frogs near a show but not on the physical property is perfectly legal unless there is a specific ordinance or law that says they cannot do it. It does not become unethical until they do it on the property where they are allowed to be so long as they abide by the policy of the facility which may prohibit them from bringing the product onto the property.


Hello,Are we all reading the same thread here? We are talking about people doing Parking lot sales,which the last time I checked is on the property of the facility.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

JPccusa said:


> Just to clarify, we have not received any complaints about "parking lot sellers." What prompted this thread was a lack of policy in our User Agreement allowing/forbidding such sales from taking place via our classifieds.
> 
> Also, I use "parking lot sellers" as an umbrella term that refers to anyone using shows' names to setup sales locations, be it in nearby hotels, restaurants, or parking lots.


Let's not limit the transaction location to the show's property... For the sake of the poll/question, please consider nearby hotels, restaurants, etc. as possible exchange locations as well. Many of the ads we see just say "Going to X show... this is what I have for sale."


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

I think there are too many variables in this thread.I think the show grounds is what's key here.If they are meeting at a hotel or elsewhere they have no intention on going to the show and have probably made arrangements in private (but should not be advertised as a show thread period).That is what it is.Where I have a problem is when the ads come up as "I'd be willing to meet at show "x" " which means they have zero intention on going in and they are just riding the shows coattails.I know some comments say we will be adding more work for ourselves,but not really.We have to approve them anyway,so no difference really.It's as easy as approve ,edit,or delete.Simple morals here.Either you have them or you don't period.


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

oddlot said:


> I think there are too many variables in this thread.I think the show grounds is what's key here.If they are meeting at a hotel or elsewhere they have no intention on going to the show and have probably made arrangements in private (but should not be advertised as a show thread period).That is what it is.Where I have a problem is when the ads come up as "I'd be willing to meet at show "x" " which means they have zero intention on going in and they are just riding the shows coattails.I know some comments say we will be adding more work for ourselves,but not really.We have to approve them anyway,so no difference really.It's as easy as approve ,edit,or delete.Simple morals here.Either you have them or you don't period.


Given that, is there any down side to not allowing the ads in question? As discussed it's easy enough for people to work around this proposed ban if they really want to.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Would it be different if the seller said



> Willing to deliver *near* XYZ Show


 instead of


> Willing to deliver *to* XYZ Show


?


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

My opinion, no difference. 

Delivery can be arranged via PM. If dendroboard wants to support the shows by not allowing these types of ads, I would think they would want to go all the way with it. 

If hobbyists need to rely on putting the show in their ad to sell frogs, then they should probably buck up and get or split a table inside the show. If it's just a matter of convenience for the buyer and seller, it need not be advertised.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

ckays said:


> My opinion, no difference.
> 
> Delivery can be arranged via PM. If dendroboard wants to support the shows by not allowing these types of ads, I would think they would want to go all the way with it.
> 
> If hobbyists need to rely on putting the show in their ad to sell frogs, then they should probably buck up and get or split a table inside the show. If it's just a matter of convenience for the buyer and seller, it need not be advertised.


Perfectly said all around! My feeling is the show shouldn't be mentioned in the ad at all, period.If someone can't sell frogs without riding the coattails of someone elses hard work then they shouldn't breed the frogs.Enjoy them ,but don't breed them.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Do these people selling frogs have a sales tax license? I'm pretty sure all the vendors have to. In NYS you definitely have to. Pa also. If they are selling frogs in those states they aren't perfectly legal. 



Pubfiction said:


> No counterfeit merchandise breaks laws typically a trade mark or copyright this makes it an actual illegitimate practice, a person trading or selling frogs near a show but not on the physical property is perfectly legal unless there is a specific ordinance or law that says they cannot do it. It does not become unethical until they do it on the property where they are allowed to be so long as they abide by the policy of the facility which may prohibit them from bringing the product onto the property. If such a law exists I have not seen it mentioned so far. I do not believe the typical frogs sold at shows are trade marked unless DFW is there.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Roadrunner said:


> Do these people selling frogs have a sales tax license? I'm pretty sure all the vendors have to. In NYS you definitely have to. Pa also. If they are selling frogs in those states they aren't perfectly legal.


You are just going to muddy the waters even further here. Sales tax license rules vary by state. Some states have limits where if you sell less than a certain amount you don't need to pay taxes or pull a license. For instance in MI if you are a temporary vendor you can just fill out a form write a check and mail it in. But if your volume goes over a certain dollar amount you need to pay yearly, step up it becomes quarterly, and eventually monthly. I would be willing to bet some of the vendors selling at shows do not have a sales tax license. I will also bet that some of them only have a license in one state but actually sell in more states than that. This gets back the legitimacy issue, just because you bought a table doesn't mean you are any more legitimate thatn anyone else. You could be a tax cheater. Once again this issue is between the show, vendor and the state revenue service and getting dendroboard involved is just a load of work and verification that isn't worth it. Lets take it a step further ANY classified ad by the law of many states could be subject to the need for a sales tax license should we verify that? You don't know what volume of sales any given person has nor do you know the rules of every state why complicate the issue? 



ckays said:


> Given that, is there any down side to not allowing the ads in question? As discussed it's easy enough for people to work around this proposed ban if they really want to.


I have already pointed out multiple times that IF a person is meeting at a show or near it, it is almost certain that 1 of the 2 parties involved has supported the show in some way. IE is a vendor or is going into the show to look and paid for admission. See bottom post for more on this. 



oddlot said:


> The only thing,Probably not,but it certainly isn't helping, and encouraging it definitely won't help.


See above. 



oddlot said:


> Hello,Are we all reading the same thread here? We are talking about people doing Parking lot sales,which the last time I checked is on the property of the facility.


Yes, I have already said in the past if a post specifically mentions intent to directly break rules it is fine to remove the post. But people are innocent until proven guilty and much of what I see here is policies and desires that take the opposite stance attempting to ban any form of even mentioning the show. And many forms of that are not breaking any rules of shows. 



JPccusa said:


> Let's not limit the transaction location to the show's property... For the sake of the poll/question, please consider nearby hotels, restaurants, etc. as possible exchange locations as well. Many of the ads we see just say "Going to X show... this is what I have for sale."


This gets ridiculous, what is the range of a show is it right to limit competition and do things that may actually be illegal? If its not the show property you nor anyone else has an ethical stand to attempt to limit what people do. If I post I am traveling to NARBC and willing to meet on the way what could possibly be wrong with that? 



oddlot said:


> I think there are too many variables in this thread.I think the show grounds is what's key here.If they are meeting at a hotel or elsewhere they have no intention on going to the show and have probably made arrangements in private (but should not be advertised as a show thread period).That is what it is.Where I have a problem is when the ads come up as "I'd be willing to meet at show "x" " which means they have zero intention on going in and they are just riding the shows coattails.I know some comments say we will be adding more work for ourselves,but not really.We have to approve them anyway,so no difference really.It's as easy as approve ,edit,or delete.Simple morals here.Either you have them or you don't period.


You do not know this at all. In fact the very last show I visited was a great example. I threw up a trade thread stating I had intentions of trading around NARBC. I orchestrated a trade which took place at buffalo wild wings parking lot. The ONLY reason I attended that show was to make that trade. I paid admission to go in for myself and 3 kids, I spent $100 at Jared Ruffings / Mike Novys booth and money at other booths including Joshs frogs and Glass Box Tropicals. All because I made a trade. Around $200 would not have entered the NARBC economy at all if I didn't have a trade to tempt me to make the trip. This has to be one of the biggest crimes of this thread is how many people are completely convinced with extreme paranoia that rational people are making the completely irrational decision to drive or fly all the way to a show and then not even go in. Lol its ridiculous I will repeat for however many times now, a trade happens at a show because someone is supporting the show and the trade probably supports that person. How can people completely fail to see that many of the people make a trade or sale at around a show an excuse to go to the show. If that excuse did not exist many wouldn't go to the show. The other seeming conclusion which is also based on no reasonable evidence at all is that people who trade would have spent all that money at a vendors table. Once again you don't know this and so far as I have seen none of the herp shows are organized enough to get this data. 

Also for a show, exposure and publicity is important. If I keep making posts saying I am going to NARBC that increases exposure, and it is perfectly reasonable to think that some one or many people may actually end up going to the show because of the hype surrounding it and part of that hype comes from the classifieds and other threads. Its a feedback mechanism. For all you know banning this practice could actually result in even lower sales for vendors and admissions to shows.

Also another note, I have been to coral meetings, where people pay for a table to vend, but in addition one of the tables will actually be a swap table where just about anyone can display a few corals and set a price to them or trade them. Then 1 or a group of people man the table. Ask yourself if your convictions are true then how is this practice possible? Why would anyone buy a table to vend when they could just leech off the swap table? Maybe the people understand what the real value of purchasing space is because many of these swaps have no problem filling lots of tables with vendors.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Pubfiction said:


> I would be willing to bet some of the vendors selling at shows do not have a sales tax license. I will also bet that some of them only have a license in one state but actually sell in more states than that. Lets take it a step further ANY classified ad by the law of many states could be subject to the need for a sales tax license should we verify that? You don't know what volume of sales any given person has nor do you know the rules of every state why complicate the issue?


You can't prove that,as you keep telling everyone!How can you be so sure any of the vendors don't pay tax.You CAN'T!As far as the volume goes,You're just being ridiculous now.Your just trying to divert the conversations to Fabricate nonsense to try and support your unfounded claims!


> I have already pointed out multiple times that IF a person is meeting at a show or near it, it is almost certain that 1 of the 2 parties involved has supported the show in some way. IE is a vendor or is going into the show to look and paid for admission. See bottom post for more on this.


You keep pointing things out over and over,but you CAN'T Prove this either! Can you? NO YOU CAN'T!!! So stop spewing crap you can't prove.You keep saying it can't be proved about everyone else's posts.Live by your own words!


> Yes, I have already said in the past if a post specifically mentions intent to directly break rules it is fine to remove the post. But people are innocent until proven guilty and much of what I see here is policies and desires that take the opposite stance attempting to ban any form of even mentioning the show. And many forms of that are not breaking any rules of shows.


Again I call BS!You said in your earlier post that if it were show rules not to sell on their grounds.......It is their rules!You just keep beating the same dead horse.Eventually your "opinions" don't matter as they are the same old thing you keep saying over and over, and incorrectly at that.


> This gets ridiculous, what is the range of a show is it right to limit competition and do things that may actually be illegal? If its not the show property you nor anyone else has an ethical stand to attempt to limit what people do. If I post I am traveling to NARBC and willing to meet on the way what could possibly be wrong with that?


Any "legal" competition is "in" the show building.You peddling frogs outside is NOT legal competition,so no,it's not illegal! Get a grip.


> You do not know this at all. In fact the very last show I visited was a great example. I threw up a trade thread stating I had intentions of trading around NARBC. Around $200 would not have entered the NARBC economy at all if I didn't have a trade to tempt me to make the trip.
> This has to be one of the biggest crimes of this thread is how many people are completely convinced with extreme paranoia that rational people are making the completely irrational decision to drive or fly all the way to a show and then not even go in. Lol its ridiculous I will repeat for however many times now, a trade happens at a show because someone is supporting the show and the trade probably supports that person.
> 
> Also for a show, exposure and publicity is important. If I keep making posts saying I am going to NARBC that increases exposure, and it is perfectly reasonable to think that some one or many people may actually end up going to the show because of the hype surrounding it and part of that hype comes from the classifieds and other threads. Its a feedback mechanism. For all you know banning this practice could actually result in even lower sales for vendors and admissions to shows.
> ...


It is a great example and now exposes ALL of your unfounded posts trying to make comments about anyone that doesn't fit your arguement.You are one of those guys.I kind of figured that by your posts.It's all clear now.You can't prove that money wouldn't of made it to the show.The guy you sold frogs too (while riding the show name in your ad) may have went to the show and spent more money,so you CAN'T prove that!So what you're saying is, someone is flying all the way to a show for a few of your parkinglot sales?I don't think so!

Haha and yeah you're coattail riding and potentially steeling profits by riding on the shows coattails by advertising your frogs (which you can't sell without the show) is giving them so much exposure that without it they would fold...Hahaha I call BUNK again and again! Can YOU prove that banning your ads for selling frogs is going to hurt the shows outcome? NO YOU CAN'T!!!!! BUNK BUNK BUNK! And I highly doubt it,if anything,more money could go into the show,and before you pull the can you prove it crap,no and neither can you.

On another note.We're NOT talking about Corals here.Again Stop comparing apples and oranges! There is NO swap tables at any frog shows.That's not how it works....that's not how any of this works.So in conclusion,thanks for exposing your true motives here and you will be someone I will NEVER buy frogs from.Will that hurt your sales? I can prove that it will not help.Additionally if you read the thread you will see that my stand is no adverting the shows name in the thread.If you made a deal privately and didn't sell on show grounds I don't have a problem with that.So stop quoting what I say and try twisting it around to fit your argument! In the last quote I clearly state "show grounds are what's key here" did you read the quote? Bottom line if you can't sell your frogs without using someone elses name,You shouldn't be breeding them period or stop being so cheap and buy a table! Not enough frogs,then go in on one with someone else,period.So going forward familiarize yourself on the topic and stay there or don't post.Tom has already started another thread ,take it there if it's constructive.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

You said they are perfectly legal otherwise. I merely pointed out if they are not collecting sales tax, they are not perfectly legal. If a vendor has a table and no tax license they are "more" legal than someone vending outside the show.
In NYS you couldn't vend without one. In Pa they enacted that no one would be able to vend the Hamburg show without a tax license in PA. Actaully I know vendors because I've done 100's of shows and most were displayed on the table as the shows I attended checked for a while to make sure all vendors had a license. White Plains you had to send in a copy before you were able to get a table. I stopped going to shows because it wasn't worth the added effort of getting a tax license because there weren't enough sales. And yes there were lots of "meet up" deals at those shows. People actually used my table for handoffs. I had to go to the door for some of them and decided the hobbyists have this show covered. $100 in sales can sometimes make or break you attending a show.



Pubfiction said:


> You are just going to muddy the waters even further here. Sales tax license rules vary by state. Some states have limits where if you sell less than a certain amount you don't need to pay taxes or pull a license. For instance in MI if you are a temporary vendor you can just fill out a form write a check and mail it in. But if your volume goes over a certain dollar amount you need to pay yearly, step up it becomes quarterly, and eventually monthly. I would be willing to bet some of the vendors selling at shows do not have a sales tax license. I will also bet that some of them only have a license in one state but actually sell in more states than that. This gets back the legitimacy issue, just because you bought a table doesn't mean you are any more legitimate thatn anyone else. You could be a tax cheater. Once again this issue is between the show, vendor and the state revenue service and getting dendroboard involved is just a load of work and verification that isn't worth it. Lets take it a step further ANY classified ad by the law of many states could be subject to the need for a sales tax license should we verify that? You don't know what volume of sales any given person has nor do you know the rules of every state why complicate the issue?


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

oddlot said:


> You can't prove that,as you keep telling everyone!How can you be so sure any of the vendors don't pay tax.You CAN'T!As far as the volume goes,You're just being ridiculous now.Your just trying to divert the conversations to Fabricate nonsense to try and support your unfounded claims!
> 
> You keep pointing things out over and over,but you CAN'T Prove this either! Can you? NO YOU CAN'T!!! So stop spewing crap you can't prove.You keep saying it can't be proved about everyone else's posts.Live by your own words!
> 
> ...


 This post is not what I would expect from a moderator.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

What's wrong with it? He quoted everything I said and was incorrect.Should I just let him do so and not have my say about what he quoted? Sorry,I'm a person as well and have the right to call someone out too.I do a lot here and I usually try to bite my tongue more than you know.I wasn't mean or disrespectful.He's been off topic and trying to twist this thread to better suit his actions.Sorry if you feel that way,but I said my peace,and answered his quotes. Now lets keep on topic here please.

Thankyou


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

it depends on the seller and how many frogs they are bringing in. if he/she is advertising 100+ frogs for sale cheap, in the lot, then block the ad. otherwise leave it


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

waynowon said:


> it depends on the seller and how many frogs they are bringing in. if he/she is advertising 100+ frogs for sale cheap, in the lot, then block the ad. otherwise leave it


Thats an unwanted loophole and too fine a line for the mods to walk if you ask me.


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

So who prefers to buy their candy from a white van in the movie plex parking lot? 

Because that is what the topic at hand is basically asking. 

Do you let someone advertise they have M&M's, popcorn, Skittles, ect for sale in the parking lot...in a white Chevy conversion van...it says candy on it... Underselling the movie theater on their own property/naming rights.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

waynowon said:


> it depends on the seller and how many frogs they are bringing in. if he/she is advertising 100+ frogs for sale cheap, in the lot, then block the ad. otherwise leave it


Why should it make a difference on who is selling the frogs or the amount?
That's just perprosterous.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

I think the vendors are a bit paranoid. This never happens at any of the shows I've been to ,and I think the majority of hobbyist would avoid this type of purchase. How many frogs can someone be selling without setting up shop? (Unless they pull up in a Chevy conversion van)I'm picturing a guy walking around like a beer vendor at the ballpark with little containers stacked to his chin, shouting "frogs here! Getchya frogs here!" 
That would be wrong. 
But if I have frogs to sell and won't ship them, meeting someone at a show saves the commute if we were both planning on attending. I see no problem making a deal before hand and making the transaction in the parking lot.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

If the seller is a breeder with 100+frogs I think it's wrong. If it's a hobbyist with 6 froglets I think it's fine. And oddlot you are perprosterous, and I think you may need a timeout


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

So you don't want my opinion. You want to change it


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

oddlot said:


> What's wrong with it? He quoted everything I said and was incorrect.Should I just let him do so and not have my say about what he quoted? Sorry,I'm a person as well and have the right to call someone out too.I do a lot here and I usually try to bite my tongue more than you know.I wasn't mean or disrespectful.He's been off topic and trying to twist this thread to better suit his actions.Sorry if you feel that way,but I said my peace,and answered his quotes. Now lets keep on topic here please.
> 
> 
> 
> Thankyou



Do you sincerely want me to answer the questions you directed at me or do you want to have the last word and tell me to "keep on topic".


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

waynowon said:


> So you don't want my opinion. You want to change it


I want to argue against it. Civily. 

The vendors are not driving this issue. Dendroboard is. Perhaps they have mentioned this issue behind the scenes, perhaps not. I don't know. But calling them paranoid seems extreme since they are not pushing this topic. 

And there is no difference between a guy with a 100 frogs using a show to his benefit without contributing to the show and a guy with one frog. 

The topic is should people be able to draw attention to themselves publicly by mentioning a show they are not a part of to draw sales. 

They more I re read this thread, the more I think the answer is obvious....


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

Me too. I can mention anything I want to


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Really?

We'll remember that.

s


waynowon said:


> Me too. I can mention anything I want to


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