# Pumilio ID



## nish07

Hi, any guess what morph this guy might be?


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## UmbraSprite

Kind of a dark photo but my first guess is Bri-Bri.


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## KeroKero

Can we get more source info on this frog? Is this a random pumilio recently purchased, or a photo you found on the internet or of someone's frog that you'd like to know the ID of? BriBri are rare so I'd be shocked if you bought one and didn't know what it was... meanwhile I'd be normal for a panama FR import (of which it could be a dark pic of an el dorado if it's orange, or a mostly red man creek if it's red).


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## boricorso

Nish07,

Did you ever get more information on this frog?

I recently got an e-mail from a friend with the same frog? He has no information on it and was hoping to find out more.


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## boricorso

Well I have found a little bit more info on the possible frog in the picture.
The person that is selling this frogs told me he got them from wholesaler/supplier (not sure if this is the correct terminology) that works out of Fort Myers Fla. They are supposed to be captive bred. I know its not a lot of info but if anyone has any other information that migh help I would apreciate it. 

My wife got me for fathers day a frog that comes from this supplier ( doubt its the one in the picture, but its form the same person that posted the add on another website) and i decided to get 2 more just to try and have a sexable pair.

I will try to post pictures sometime this week. To me the frog looks dark orange with dark blue (could pass for black on all 4 lower extremities.

Thank you!


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## Roadrunner

If it was from a wholesaler in fla it wasn`t captive bred


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## boricorso

Yea thats why I said supposedly...... He did say he gets some pumilo form some1 in Miamai that are WC and supposedly the one form Fort Myers has captive bred. Guess I will never get the full story.

All in all im happy with the frog an dhope to post pictures sometime this week to see if i can get some sort of ID.


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## boricorso

Any ideas on what this little guy might be?







Same storry as above, although not refering to the frog mentioned in previous posts...I still need to post pictures of that one. Since its origins are the same figured I keep this post alive.

Basically from a wholesaler in Ft. Myers Fl. The person I got it from asked for a sexed pair but one was DOA so he's buyer did not want the one that was alive, he contacted me with this pictures. 

Any sugestions are welcomed on what morph he might be...although I know this is a long shot.

Thanks.


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## boricorso

No one willing to give it a shot? Im just interested on knowing posibilities on the morph it could be.

Thanks in advance,

m


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## rjmarchisi

Looks like a pretty scarred/beat up El Dorado, but you will never know....


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## boricorso

Well I ended up gettign the little guy, the person that had him did not want to keep him and offered it to me. 

At first I though he looked bad (from the pictures), but in person he seems a lot better. He eats and hunts quite vividly and seems to be doing great (of course Ive only had him a few days so still need to see how he does). He is actually a pig, he really goes after the flies.

Thanks for the reply...and yes Ill never really know, hehe.

m

PS-BTW...not sure why the same picture was posted 3 times....ill try posting the other 2.


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## boricorso

Thats the other 2 pictures.

Sorry have no clue on how to make them appear bigger.

m


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## trow

El dorado look's like to me and he does look a little banged up.I know the co you got them from and they are offering el dorado's as well as cauchero's.
Goodluck


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## boricorso

Im not entirely sure of where he came from. Its a chain of peopel before it got to me. But the original person that got it and shipped it to the person I got it from suposedly gets his pumilio from the Fort myers supplier or the Miami supplier. The Miami one was also selling caucheros, so you are probably right.

As for being banged up, he hides it very well. He is extremely active, eats very well as is very bold. 

Why does he look banged up? Is it because of his black markings?

Thanks fo rthe info,

m


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## trow

Mine dont have any black marking's maybe it's a eldi juvenile thing I dont have any babies to compare but people on this forum are having babies with this morph so check around.
Goodluck 
they are great I should have gotten more of these instead of the cauchero's way to shy for my taste.


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## Rich Frye

trow said:


> Mine dont have any black marking's maybe it's a eldi juvenile thing I dont have any babies to compare but people on this forum are having babies with this morph so check around.
> Goodluck
> they are great I should have gotten more of these instead of the cauchero's way to shy for my taste.


"They " and "these" being what exactly again?...


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## Rich Frye

Just wondering. Because I know that my Darklands (sometimes Caucheroes being mis-labeled "darklands" by those looking at pics to ID, being that there is once again no other way to ID these imports but to _guess_ unless you have absolute local info, which almost none do) are quite bold. And we are far from IDing this/these morphs in question.


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## boricorso

I still need to post pctures of my other one. Its a darker red/orange, and while it has no dark markings on the upper body, the leg pattern is very similar. Seems a bit smaller also.

Im waiting for my brothers camera and Ill take some pictures then.

Mine are very bold (the orange with blaack dots being the boldest), eat like crazy, but IMO they are not fat. Guess hunting around for flying FF's keeps them in shape. They seem to be well, or at least i hope so. Im still waiting for the fecal results. 

While I know Ill never know exactly what they are, it be great if some of the more experienced frogers could give a somewhat educated guess of what they could be.

thanks for all the replies, greatly apreciated.

m


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## trow

Sorry,My cauchero's(darkland's) are very shy I also know alot of people who have very bold cauchero,mine however are not. I know who your frog's are from and considering I got some as well and by looking at other so called more experianced frogger's example's your's fall's neatly into that group.What it truly is who know's but el dorado sure sound's nice. 
Goodluck


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## Rich Frye

trow said:


> Sorry,My cauchero's(darkland's) are very shy I also know alot of people who have very bold cauchero,mine however are not. I know who your frog's are from and considering I got some as well and by looking at other so called more experianced frogger's example's your's fall's neatly into that group.What it truly is who know's but el dorado sure sound's nice.
> Goodluck


Just to let you know , if you do not already, Caucheros and Darklands are two different pumilio. Unfortunately what has become SOP is to looky at a pic and proclaim it to be the animal in the pic. Not a great way to ID a frog.

Rich


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## UmbraSprite

Rich,

As you know I attempted to get a look at both of these populations and they were extremely variable in each location and definitely have morphological overlap. I had a discussion with Chris van der Lingen at NAAC about them who also feels that the populations themselves overlap as there is minimal to no development in that area. Chris has done quite a bit of field work out there but we won't know for sure until his project reaches that locale.

As part of his PPP Project he has teams of grad students mapping entire islands and locations using GPS and cataloging morphology hectacre by hectacre. It will be the best look we will have. Currently they have finished Isla Colon and have almost completed Bastimentos. I am trying to get ahold of the presentations from the meeting as you would have really enjoyed seeing the morphs he has found that no one has seen. He also confirmed there is overlap (at least morphologically) of all the morphs on Bastimentos. 

When this is finished we will have mapping of each distinct population...I am extremely excited about his work.

I have to get on Matt about obtaining the presentations... Matt?

Chris


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## Rich Frye

UmbraSprite said:


> Rich,
> 
> As you know I attempted to get a look at both of these populations and they were extremely variable in each location and definitely have morphological overlap. I had a discussion with Chris van der Lingen at NAAC about them who also feels that the populations themselves overlap as there is minimal to no development in that area. Chris has done quite a bit of field work out there but we won't know for sure until his project reaches that locale.
> 
> As part of his PPP Project he has teams of grad students mapping entire islands and locations using GPS and cataloging morphology hectacre by hectacre. It will be the best look we will have. Currently they have finished Isla Colon and have almost completed Bastimentos. I am trying to get ahold of the presentations from the meeting as you would have really enjoyed seeing the morphs he has found that no one has seen. He also confirmed there is overlap (at least morphologically) of all the morphs on Bastimentos.
> 
> When this is finished we will have mapping of each distinct population...I am extremely excited about his work.
> 
> I have to get on Matt about obtaining the presentations... Matt?
> 
> Chris


Interesting.
A few things though. I doubt that all basti morphs overlap. If so we would be seeing Salt Creek AKA the $ making scam term 'Solarte' (NOT to be confused with true Isle Solarte which are Nancies) mixed with the larger and totally different 'true' spotted basti morphs. Also , being that the area involved with Darklands, Caucheros, and Esperanza 'morphs' is fairly huge, and using the same 'arguments' of overlapping, I would still not feel right crossing Darklands with Esperanzas. So , at some point there also needs to be a cut-off point where we don't cross Darklands with Caucheros. Where that point is, I don't know because I only know exactly where MY stuff comes from. So, once again coming full circle, unless you know exactly where your stuff came from it can open big , huge , smelly cans of worms when trying to manage populations.
I look forward to reading the studies.

Rich


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## KeroKero

Going back to the original post, the frogs pictured in this post are El Dorados... they range from more yellow to closer to red, and can either have no markings to heavier markings (similar to BriBris). As for captive bred vs. WC... the frogs are farm-raised in Panama and imported, and are sold as "CB" or "WC" since the FR delegation could mean either... but FR doesn't sell well in the trade so they delegate WC or CB as they see fit.


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## jvhistri

I'm going to agree with Corey that they are the El Dorado morph. As far as variation goes here are a couple pics of a pair that I have. Also, notice the blue on the legs on the female. 

the female









the male


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## Rich Frye

jvhistri said:


> I'm going to agree with Corey that they are the El Dorado morph. As far as variation goes here are a couple pics of a pair that I have. Also, notice the blue on the legs on the female.
> 
> the female
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the male


Those two pics are a perfect example of how it is impossible to ID frogs by pics alone. IF, if those are both "EL D's" then the first one looks surpisingly like a San Cristobal Island, or a Blackjean, or a Bluejean, or a "cristobal", or, or ...
And again, if you are the person, or know very very well the person who grabbed them off the ground then you can say with certainty that they are in-fact "El Dorados". Is this the case?

Rich


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## nish07

One thing seems to be certain. The frogs coming from the North of Panama around the Mountain area that are being labeled ElDorado are much larger than normal Pums and are more the size of Bribris.

-Nish


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## Rich Frye

nish07 said:


> One thing seems to be certain. The frogs coming from the North of Panama around the Mountain area that are being labeled ElDorado are much larger than normal Pums and are more the size of Bribris.
> 
> -Nish


I have heard this also. 
How about this. Since these frogs are quite literally being snatched up off the ground, and they are relatively new to the U.S., it would make sense that we don't know how big they really can get. If you have a juvi (you don't know it is a juvi, it just came in the ship along with adults), you could be easily fooled into thinking that due to it's smaller size it is not an "El Dorado". And, Since I have never seen (and quite possibly importers also) a blue legged "El Dorado" someone could have easily thrown that blue legged "El Dorado" into the "cristobal" pile. Or, I could have taken a "cristobal" that I had extra (as an exporter) and simply thrown it in with the rest of my "El Dorados". Or, there may be a sub-population at a different local than the main population of "El Dorados" that throw blue legs (much as Darklands and Esperanzas ) that maybe should not be mixed. Or...or...or...


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## nish07

Mmmm Esperanza...

Yeah, it's possible. I hear within the major area there are a lot of differences in color (Yellow/Gold to Orange to Reds). It's also possible that some mixing might happen. I would have to assume that those few people who are doing the research and getting correct information on locality would be able to tell the difference.

-Nish


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## nish07

Deleted Post.


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## Rich Frye

nish07 said:


> Mmmm Esperanza...
> 
> Yeah, it's possible. I hear within the major area there are a lot of differences in color (Yellow/Gold to Orange to Reds). It's also possible that some mixing might happen. I would have to assume that those few people who are doing the research and getting correct information on locality would be able to tell the difference.
> 
> -Nish


But "those few people" have yet to come to a conclusion on a number of morphs. Such as the Darklands , Cauchero and Esperanza issues. Where do we divide the 'not to be interbred' line between Darklands, Caucheros, and Esperonzas? And these are morphs we know a bit more about...


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## jvhistri

> Rich Frye
> Those two pics are a perfect example of how it is impossible to ID frogs by pics alone. IF, if those are both "EL D's" then the first one looks surpisingly like a San Cristobal Island, or a Blackjean, or a Bluejean, or a "cristobal", or, or ...
> And again, if you are the person, or know very very well the person who grabbed them off the ground then you can say with certainty that they are in-fact "El Dorados". Is this the case?


Yes, I agree that by pics alone it's really not the best way to ID these new pumilio morphs. But you can't rule out variation or odd balls. What are the average sizes of the above morphs that you stated? I am not very familiar with pumilio, have only seen a few in person. I picked these frogs up straight from a wholesaler and do have to admit that this female did stick out a bit, but still has many similarities. As far as size on these guys I would say they are about 20-22mm give or take, female being roughly the same size as both males. They are almost about twice the size of the other imported morph being called "Guarumo". 
No, I can't say with certainty that these are "El Dorados", was just agreeing as to that being the best possibility considering what I have seen with this morph. 



> Rich Frye
> And again, if you are the person, or know very very well the person who grabbed them off the ground then you can say with certainty that they are in-fact "El Dorados". Is this the case?


No of course not, unfortunately. But then how certain are you with all the morphs you have?

I doubt that this will help by very much but here are some more pics...by the way, all 3 frogs do have blue on their toes/finger tips.

2nd male









females belly









1st males belly


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## Rich Frye

"No of course not, unfortunately. But then how certain are you with all the morphs you have?"

Actually, 100%. I am that sure.
And I would say , by pics alone, that the female you think is an "El Dorado" is not.

Rich


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## Rich Frye

To answer the question of how big the other pums I noted are, I don't know about the two BJs I noted or the mutt/best guess "cristobals", but the San Cristolbal Island pums fall well into the 20mm range. Pums also will continue to grow for years. I would not mix the female in with the other "El Dorados" without further info. It sticks out more than a bit. Looks very, very much like a SC, but again, when buying best guesses you get anything out there.

Rich


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## jvhistri

Man this sucks, was really looking to breed these. But, I have been looking at many pics of the San Cristobal pumilios and agree with you in that the female is more likely just that and even more aggravating is still not being able to actually call her that. I will definitely separate her from the 'El Dorados". Also, just yesterday I found a clutch of eggs but luckily they are molded over. The male that is in with her doesn't seem to be very interested in her as he really doesn't call very much and seems to keep his distance. Well, thanks for the info Rich...I guess it's time to look for a female 'El Dorado'.


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## markpulawski

Looking at Pigface's ElDorado offspring it is totally reticulated, are not San Critobals and El Dorado's significantly different in size. with ED's being quite a bit larger?


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## Rich Frye

markpulawski said:


> Looking at Pigface's ElDorado offspring it is totally reticulated, are not San Critobals and El Dorado's significantly different in size. with ED's being quite a bit larger?


Totally reticulated _ with blue legs_??
No, there is not. I am the only one I know who has site specific San Cristobal Island pumilio and they fall well within the stated "el D'" measurements of 20-22mm.

Rich


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## nish07

Pic of one of my new ElDorados.










-Nish

P.S. Sorry about the clarity (it's through a tub lid).


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## jvhistri

Just came across this, maybe there is hope that they are El Dorados? 

http://repstyle.org/discuz/thread-1857-1-1.html

Don't think I have seen the pics of Pigface's El Dorados, got any links?


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## pigface

Here are a couple of my froglets . ( The parents are from Marcus ) They are more spotted than reticulated and a little more orange than the parents which have very little or no spots .But a couple of my adults do show the black markings , scaring or color variations I don't know . 


















one of the parents .









I would also agree that the spotted frog dosen't look like a Eldorado , the blue legs look like they have some reticulations too , all the eldo pics look like they have grey legs almost silver with no reticulations , even with all the supposed variations with the ElDorado's .


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## Rich Frye

As sad as the situation is, if we do not know exactly where (and I don't mean we need to know exactly where "El Dorado" is , could use some of that gold right about now, I mean that the pum in question comes exactly from where all others of the label come from.) then we are guessing and the pum will always be a best guess pumilio. 
Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about. There are a few "locals" of Pope Island pumilio. These locals should not be mixed or mutted .Some look like Cayo de Aguas, some are predominantly orange or yellow backed with green bellies and blueish legs, and some are what has come in the last couple years, North Pope Island pums. All of the North Popes I have seen in person, being a couple dozen or so, were green backed with green bellies and blueish legs. JP, who studied them down there, said he saw exactly one in all the Norths that was orange/yellow while studying them. One out of hundreds?? Thousands??
Bottom line, one of my 1:2 trios of all green Norths just produced an orange North Pope. It's tank mate/brom mate was green , just like the parents. But I now have an orange North Pope. If I had to rely only on site recognition, I would have tagged this a Pope Island , not from the North Pope local though. A very important distinction.

Rich


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## Jeremiah

That is by far one of the most amazing el dorados I've seen,, and yes, I would guess that it is el dorado, just my opinion tho. There is a good amount of variation with them..

If you wanna get rid of her, I'll buy her! 
Shoot me an email: [email protected]


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