# Better-Gro Orchid Moss at Lowe's is Sweet...



## Smashtoad

Just an FYI...the "Better-Gro" brand sphagnum moss sold at Lowe's, over the last year that I have been using it...has proven to consistently begin growing anew and looks like a million bucks...it also throws small lacy ferns out of nowhere, which is sweet. My plants all grow real well in it, too. I've got Cryptanthus, Drosera capensis, heart fern, scindapsus, Neos, jewel orchids, selaginella, and Mediocalcar in it with no soil or coir and they are all thriving. The Drosera has thrown so many baby plants I don't know exactly how I am going to seperate it without tearing the parent up...

Anyway...if you're sick of killing tropical pillow moss...grow some sphagnum...I'll post a pick of some of it later...


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## jackj921

I just purchased a brick of this stuff at Lowes but would love to see a few pictures before I use it.

Thanks

JACK


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## postal

Curious as well- can we get a pic?


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## Smashtoad

Sorry guys...here they are. The top pic, except for the Mediocalcar orchid, is all sphagnum that started growing. Every bit of mine came from Lowe's and is the Better-Gro stuff in the bale package. The second pick is where it grew over the edges of another piece of wood. I like Selaginalla well enough...but the way this stuff grows, I doubt I'll ever use it again.


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## jackj921

That stuff looks great! I bought a brick of it the other day at Lowes and will use it today.

THANKS AGAIN.
JACK


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## Smashtoad

Yeah, I was kinda skeptical about moss in general at first. The tropical mosses are VERY cool but appeared expensive and picky, from what I read, if you don't put them in just the right spot. Selaginella is cool, but turns into more of a spreading green hair pad that is hard to keep pruned and needs a large area...but the frogs can't really climb on it well.

This stuff, because I used it on the entire surface of the tank...showed me where it would grow, and actually...there aren't really any spots that haven't turned green. I am putting a 56 column together now for some terribilius, and am planning wide open areas for this stuff...it is just beautiful.


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## onefstsnake

have a pic of what it looks like in the package?


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## kristy55303

IMO nothing can outcompete new zealand moss. i saw that moss at lowes and was skeptical about it personally. They had it in a small package as well....and my lowes was spendy where you could get the new zealand moss from one of the sponsors that will also grow and in a larger amount. kristy


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## gretchenellie

thanks for this info, smashtoad!

i will have to stop by my local Lowes tomorrow and see if i cant find some of this stuff...

what type of lighting are you using on the tank it is growing in?

thanks!


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## kristy55303

NO..no...no.no...no...do not buy that moss. buy the nice new zealand moss. i believe this is the cause to my mint bacterial/fungal infection. he is 1/3 size of tank mates and will see if he makes it through treatments. here is a pic of him. I strongly recommend you buy only new zealand moss. i do know some orchid sellers sell it, vivarium concepts and also azdr. It is high quality sphagnum and it will grow under the right conditions . here are pics of my mint terribillis from using sphagnum other than the new zealand kind ans also make sure it is seeded with springtails. if for quarantine, change out and re-seed every 2-3 weeks. here are pics to sway some of your decisions, price doesn't matter to me. the health of my darts does. 

















luckily this only happened to one of them. the other three mints are three times its size and show no signs. rich also made a point that some chilean infected moss a few yrs ago may have caused some dart deaths. do as you wish, but i strongly advise against it. i just hope that my dart makes it through treat,ment with baytril and silver sulfa drug. 
regards, kristy


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## kristy55303

Smashtoad said:


> Yeah, I was kinda skeptical about moss in general at first. The tropical mosses are VERY cool but appeared expensive and picky, from what I read, if you don't put them in just the right spot. Selaginella is cool, but turns into more of a spreading green hair pad that is hard to keep pruned and needs a large area...but the frogs can't really climb on it well.
> 
> This stuff, because I used it on the entire surface of the tank...showed me where it would grow, and actually...there aren't really any spots that haven't turned green. I am putting a 56 column together now for some terribilius, and am planning wide open areas for this stuff...it is just beautiful.


sorry to be honest, but like my above post shopwed, good luck with your teribillis. kristy


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## Smashtoad

kristy55303 said:


> sorry to be honest, but like my above post shopwed, good luck with your teribillis. kristy


No, it's fine...I appreciate honesty...here's some more.

Are all of the terribilus you mentioned in the same tank? If so, you think the moss has caused stunted growth and a bacterial infection on only one of the frogs? That seem like an incredibly amateuristic and reaching observation made by someone that has a runt that simply isn't as healthy as the others. 

And your post "showed" nothing but assumptions.

I think you should gather some real evidence before trashing a product that has performed fantastically for someone. My P. bicolor and several species of plants have been in a tank for a year and all are thriving on a thick bed of this moss, gravel, and nothing else.

And I will be using it in the 56 column...


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## asplundii

Smashtoad said:


>


I do not think that is sphag, I think that is another moss that tends to pop up often from the BetterGro bales. Sphag has a more "foxtail" look to it. Like this:


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## kristy55303

Smashtoad said:


> No, it's fine...I appreciate honesty...here's some more.
> 
> Are all of the terribilus you mentioned in the same tank? If so, you think the moss has caused stunted growth and a bacterial infection on only one of the frogs? That seem like an incredibly amateuristic and reaching observation made by someone that has a runt that simply isn't as healthy as the others.
> 
> And your post "showed" nothing but assumptions.
> 
> I think you should gather some real evidence before trashing a product that has performed fantastically for someone. My P. bicolor and several species of plants have been in a tank for a year and all are thriving on a thick bed of this moss, gravel, and nothing else.
> 
> And I will be using it in the 56 column...


do as you wish. i was only informing you of the dangers to not using high quality sphagnum moss. two were in one quarantine and the other two in another. This one was just as fat originally and has no stunted growth. they are twelve month mints. amateuristic. i dont think so. it was just as big as its quarantine mate before the bacterial/ fungus infection. had been in quarantine for 2-3 months. three consecutive clean fecals. also today i have noticed the same condition on a couple other terribillis but not to the extent of my photo,minimal, and assume it will go away with treatment or without likely. like i said, do as you wish. I happen to care deeply about my darts and am unwilling to chance things if at all possible. question: are the vendors selling that great product found at lowes? kristy


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## melissa68

Kristy, 

This moss just like any other can be an issue. We have used and recommended this moss for years. 

The fact this happened to only one of your frogs first vs others makes me "believe" that there were some other issues at work instead of the sphagnum. 

What we tend to forget, is that all frogs are individuals & unique genetically. Our techniques of artificially rearing tads & froglets the way we do allows weaker frogs to survive in our collections that would not have survived in nature. So, it could have been a weaker frog than the rest and more susceptible to other issues. Since he was smaller that the others in the first place it suggests an existing issue, he could also been stressed by the others in the tank. Also, since the frog was smaller, he could have been picked on, etc.

Most imported products (mosses, food, cork, wood, furniture) has to be fumigated or cleansed in some way prior to entry into the US. So, contamination to animals is always a possibility for any substance you use (even ones from your own backyard).

Melissa





kristy55303 said:


> NO..no...no.no...no...do not buy that moss. buy the nice new zealand moss. i believe this is the cause to my mint bacterial/fungal infection. he is 1/3 size of tank mates and will see if he makes it through treatments. here is a pic of him. I strongly recommend you buy only new zealand moss. i do know some orchid sellers sell it, vivarium concepts and also azdr. It is high quality sphagnum and it will grow under the right conditions . here are pics of my mint terribillis from using sphagnum other than the new zealand kind ans also make sure it is seeded with springtails. if for quarantine, change out and re-seed every 2-3 weeks. here are pics to sway some of your decisions, price doesn't matter to me. the health of my darts does.
> 
> luckily this only happened to one of them. the other three mints are three times its size and show no signs. rich also made a point that some chilean infected moss a few yrs ago may have caused some dart deaths. do as you wish, but i strongly advise against it. i just hope that my dart makes it through treat,ment with baytril and silver sulfa drug.
> regards, kristy


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## melissa68

Frogs can have issues with clean fecals. Obtaining clean fecals on a frog doesn't mean the frog is healthy. Frogs can have other health issues & do that we will never know about. Did you ever think the other frog could have been immune (or more resistant) to the issue which affected the other one?

Chilean moss IS high quality moss. There are multiple grades of both Chilean & NZ. What is sold at Lowes isn't the highest grade available - but in the world of mosses it is an easily accessible high quality moss. 

And, your answer is yes...there are orchid vendors who sell Chilean moss. I think the reason it hasn't shown up on frog sites is there isn't a wholesale source for the product. I am not saying there isn't one out there - I just haven't been able to find one & I have searched repeatedly in the past for wholesale NZ & Chilean...NZ was the only one I was able to find that offered 150g - 3kg sizes. 



kristy55303 said:


> do as you wish. i was only informing you of the dangers to not using high quality sphagnum moss. two were in one quarantine and the other two in another. This one was just as fat originally and has no stunted growth. they are twelve month mints. amateuristic. i dont think so. it was just as big as its quarantine mate before the bacterial/ fungus infection. had been in quarantine for 2-3 months. three consecutive clean fecals. also today i have noticed the same condition on a couple other terribillis but not to the extent of my photo,minimal, and assume it will go away with treatment or without likely. like i said, do as you wish. I happen to care deeply about my darts and am unwilling to chance things if at all possible. question: are the vendors selling that great product found at lowes? kristy


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## kristy55303

melissa68 said:


> Kristy,
> 
> This moss just like any other can be an issue. We have used and recommended this moss for years.
> 
> The fact this happened to only one of your frogs out of three that were housed on it makes me "believe" that there were some other issues at work instead of the spaghum.
> 
> What we tend to forget, is that all frogs are individuals & unique genetically. Our techniques of artificially reariny tads & froglets the way we do allows weaker frogs to survive in our collections that would not have survived in nature. So, it could have been a weaker frog than the rest and more suseptible to other issues. Since he was smaller, he could also been stressed by the others in the tank. Also, since the frog was smaller, he could have been picked on, etc.
> 
> Most imported products (mosses, food, cork, wood, furniture) has to be fumigated or cleansed in some way prior to entry into the US. So, contamination to animals is always a possibility for any substance you use (even ones from your own backyard).
> 
> Melissa


i agree and not trying to get down on others seriously about using lowes moss. My mints were all not stunted, not skinny and very healthy IMO. I just didnt want to see this happen to someone else. thats why i prefer to use the new zealand quality moss. Believe me, it would either be cheaper for me to go to lowes and get this...and maybe it is fine, or maybe i got a bad batch of moss, but i don't want to take the risk either. if that is understandable. all 4 frogs separated in two quarantines...12 months of age just a week ago were the same size...no runts here. If lowes is working for people, go ahead and use it. I was just concerned if it could cause the same effects is all. i have noticed the other three have some tiny dots also that have appeared. Who knows scientifically what exactly caused it. yes the pics of this moss are great. really great photos. Made me want to go buy some when i saw my price at lowes as well. So i want trying to be offensive, honest. Please dont take it that way. Just a caution. I have since changed my quarantines to new zealand AAA grade sphagnum for now on. i am very critical on germs lol in my darts. i boil, bake, or bleach anything that i can. Great job on the photos of the moss by the way. it looks gorgeous. I just can't due to my germ phobia go out and buy it and tes it on my darts. It could very well be fine and dandy. no puns inteneded. kristy


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## melissa68

Do you have a drainage layer in your containers? 

Both of them are high quality moss, and like I said contamination can happen to any product. 

Any animal can get sick - and we can't save them all. You are doing a good job at eliminating issues - but since are now coming down with it, I would look at cross contamination and start eliminating things from the equation. For example...get new containers - I would not reuse them yet. I would clean them out & put them outside in the sun. 

I have actually seen mints look like this before & heard about it too. In each instance there was a bug infestation in the tank and they were getting bit. Mints when their skin is damaged shows up black. The bites stressed the frogs out, they lost weight & developed other issues. In the few instances I know about they died - but that doesn't mean it will happen here.


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## kristy55303

melissa68 said:


> Frogs can have issues with clean fecals. Obtaining clean fecals on a frog doesn't mean the frog is healthy. Frogs can have other health issues & do that we will never know about. Did you ever think the other frog could have been immune (or more resistant) to the issue which affected the other one?
> 
> Chilean moss IS high quality moss. There are multiple grades of both Chilean & NZ. What is sold at Lowes isn't the highest grade available - but in the world of mosses it is an easily accessible high quality moss.
> 
> And, your answer is yes...there are orchid vendors who sell Chilean moss. I think the reason it hasn't shown up on frog sites is there isn't a wholesale source for the product. I am not saying there isn't one out there - I just haven't been able to find one & I have searched repeatedly in the past for wholesale NZ & Chilean...NZ was the only one I was able to find that offered 150g - 3kg sizes.


i was talking about vendors selling this specific moss and orchid sellers that sell the AAA new zealand moss and yes i know there are other things that can not be detected in fecals. chytrid, fungal infections, viruses to name a few. Look...wasnt trying to get down on people. more of a heads up? sometimes things typed can be misinterpreted. I apologize if i came off strong and like this. didn't mean for it to sound argumentative, as that's not me at all. so in saying that, i thought the moss from lowes looked outstanding in the pics and great job on the viv! kristy


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## kristy55303

melissa68 said:


> Do you have a drainage layer in your containers?
> 
> Both of them are high quality moss, and like I said contamination can happen to any product.
> 
> Any animal can get sick - and we can't save them all. You are doing a good job at eliminating issues - but since are now coming down with it, I would look at cross contamination and start eliminating things from the equation. For example...get new containers - I would not reuse them yet. I would clean them out & put them outside in the sun.
> 
> I have actually seen mints look like this before & heard about it too. In each instance there was a bug infestation in the tank and they were getting bit. Mints when their skin is damaged shows up black. The bites stressed the frogs out, they lost weight & developed other issues. In the few instances I know about they died - but that doesn't mean it will happen here.


melissa...i do all my quarantines per asn and also no drainage. I change out the moss....sanitize the container thouroghly and reseed with springs every 2-3 weeks. the containers are ff proof. so i don't think another bug got in both, but who knows right?  I am treating and hopefully they will get better. the one bad mint in the pic seems to be handling things fine as far as treatments and the spots look smaller just a bit today. the other container and the one this was in the mints also showed me a tiny bite mark maybe? maybe fungal issue? maybe bacterial? who can really know for certain. 

p.s. since the board got changed did you have that item available i asked you for...pm me for details on it as i lost your pm kristy


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## melissa68

The reason I suggested getting new containers is that plastic is porous & can absorb stuff over time. I am not saying that to scare anyone, but if I have an animal in a plastic container develop an issue I usually toss it or reuse it for something non frog related. When I use 190 oz ones I only keep them in use for a certain amount of time & then replace with new ones. 

I actually switched from using sphagnum in tanks and containers to using coconut chips. I still use it for other things, but have been pretty happy with the change. Provides better drainage & I noticed the frogs were eatting more ffs. Froglets actually will burrow in it as well. 

Are you seeding your Terribilis containers with springs? I would stop doing that, small stuff like that is more annoying to them then anything. My adults ignore them so I don't supply them unless it is to froglets. 

There has only been 1 form of sphagnum I have ever had trouble with and that was North American. I stay away from that stuff.

No, I don't remember the pm - can you send it again?


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## kristy55303

melissa68 said:


> The reason I suggested getting new containers is that plastic is porous & can absorb stuff over time. I am not saying that to scare anyone, but if I have an animal in a plastic container develop an issue I usually toss it or reuse it for something non frog related. When I use 190 oz ones I only keep them in use for a certain amount of time & then replace with new ones.
> 
> I actually switched from using sphagnum in tanks and containers to using coconut chips. I still use it for other things, but have been pretty happy with the change. Provides better drainage & I noticed the frogs were eatting more ffs. Froglets actually will burrow in it as well.
> 
> Are you seeding your Terribilis containers with springs? I would stop doing that, small stuff like that is more annoying to them then anything. My adults ignore them so I don't supply them unless it is to froglets.
> 
> There has only been 1 form of sphagnum I have ever had trouble with and that was North American. I stay away from that stuff.
> 
> No, I don't remember the pm - can you send it again?


yes they will go in new containers. i too throw out anything with issues. I use 190 0z tubs or sterilte bins. i only add springs to help as decomposers, not as a food source unless it is for froglets. so the sphagnum doesnt have to be changed for 2-3 weeks. i'llm pm you melissa. thanks kristy


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## Smashtoad

asplundii said:


> I do not think that is sphag, I think that is another moss that tends to pop up often from the BetterGro bales. Sphag has a more "foxtail" look to it...


Thanks, Kristi...I kinda wondered about that, to be honest. So I have a wild moss from parts unknown in my tank that creeps over wood...that is freakin awesome.


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## kristy55303

Smashtoad said:


> Thanks, Kristi...I kinda wondered about that, to be honest. So I have a wild moss from parts unknown in my tank that creeps over wood...that is freakin awesome.


in that case...maybe i'll try some if i can find a lowes without a heaping amount of dust on it  lol i just was worried about spagnum but i also worry alot. germ phobiac here. when you have 40 darts like me. invested money etc etc, you tend to get this way. on a sidenote, that moss looks amazing kristy


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## james67

kristy, didnt you microwave it???????? i know youve said before that you're a germaphobe. i have to assume that you disinfected it somehow before you introduced it to the tank. is this conclusion for the source of infection still standing or have you come up with something else through that long post on these little guys in the disease/ treatment area? 

james


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## kristy55303

james67 said:


> kristy, didnt you microwave it???????? i know youve said before that you're a germaphobe. i have to assume that you disinfected it somehow before you introduced it to the tank. is this conclusion for the source of infection still standing or have you come up with something else through that long post on these little guys in the disease/ treatment area?
> 
> james


james i boil my sphagnum. It could be fungal still yes. but it could also be some sort of mite that caused the infection making it bacterial versus fungal or a combo of both. I have stuck with dr.fryes suggestions as i have the utmost respect for him. the mint seems better, minorly better. we'll see over the upcoming days. in the meantime, I am sticking to 190 0z containers, one frog(adult) per container with sphagnum seeded with springs. i change out every 2-3 weeks and i also put leaf litter/pothos clippings sanitized in with it along with a non-porous makeshift cocohut. ff proof and esier tahn the steriltie bins anyhow. plus i know a bulk supplier for them. i can not say for certain what the source is, thats impossible at this point, only guesses right now and educated ones at that from dr.frye. kristy


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## Dendrobait

I doubt "high quality" sphagnum makes any difference as far as our frogs are concerned since it isn't marketed at frog hobbyists.

Whatever is doing so well in this guys tank isn't sphagnum. 

Also, sphagnum moss tends to have a low ph so keeping frogs on it may not be such a good idea. From what I saw in Costa Rica moss tends to grow mainly on wood and whatnot...the rainforest floor is almost entirely leaflitter, sticks, and bark bits ontop of clay.


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## KevinS

I just went across the street on my lunch break and got a bale of this stuff from Lowe's. I'd like to go ahead and try to get some of it growing so I can transfer it to the frog tank later on (it's not set up yet). Can you give me any advice on getting some live stuff to sprout from it? I'm mainly wondering if it seems to like much light or not. Assuming lighting is ok, does it just take off on its own when kept moist? Thanks for the information, I'm hoping for results like yours.


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## Smashtoad

kristy55303 said:


> james i boil my sphagnum.


Kristy...boiling the moss kills every living thing within it. My guess would be that when you then throw the devastated moss into a warm, tropical environment, it has no choice but to rot, and coming back to life would, in my opinion, be highly unlikely. Your frogs are much tougher than you are giving them credit for.

This may make you cringe, but I am going to tell you anyway, as I hope it will help you. I had a 6" Bufo guttata in a 56 column tank for six years on 5 inches of potting soil, sand, and peat moss. In that time I changed the substrate maybe six times...maybe. In the interim I would just remove the toad and stir it. It never smelled like anything but a forest and the toad thrived.

Keeping our animals in natural vivaria, in my opinion, benefits them in ways that translate directly to their immune systems. If I was a treefrog or snake being kept in a sweater box on paper towels...I'd want to die I think.


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## Smashtoad

KevinS said:


> I just went across the street on my lunch break and got a bale of this stuff from Lowe's. I'd like to go ahead and try to get some of it growing so I can transfer it to the frog tank later on (it's not set up yet). Can you give me any advice on getting some live stuff to sprout from it? I'm mainly wondering if it seems to like much light or not. Assuming lighting is ok, does it just take off on its own when kept moist? Thanks for the information, I'm hoping for results like yours.


Just mist it often and light that sucker up good (do some wattage research)...you'll start to see the green with a couple weeks.


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## kristy55303

i dont put it in my vivs. in quarantines for 2-3 weeks seeded with springtails. i get the whole need for microfauna. my vivs have or will have hydroton as a base layer.....separated by screen mesh, and i like vivarium concepts special abg mix myself toped with a layer of leaf litter. no i dont boil her abg mix it has a bit of sphagnum in it as i look at it. your post didnt make me cringe lol. natural vivaria ois what we are looking for but there are some things i do sanitize. not everything though. kristy

p.s. i use paper towel substrate for treatment. worked wonders on my mint in question. I think it was a bad block of sphagnum, and that sphagnum i didnt boil. i was in a hurry. and i almost regretted it, well i do, for having the poor thing so ill and having to treat everuy single day. i have no idea about better grow orchid moss. does it contain fertilizers? certainly looks amazing, yes. kristy

EDIT: my quarantines are 3 months long, three fecals, so i have to change out sphagnum once every 2-3 weeks, use new zealand now, no probs, and if i am treating darts it is usually a every week change out but i make sure they have a lot of hiding spots to feel secure.


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## gold3nku5h

To the guy who said that wasn't sphagnum moss, im with you on that, as you do actually have some, I also have gotten some, live from an online vendor, i'll tell if anyones intersted, but for the price i was VERY dissatisfied. I almost wanted to complain, but over the internet, seems almost impossible to get anything of seriousness across. Anyways, your picture inspired me to bring it back to life. Theres alot, so i might dry some out, and make a moss paste out of it and see if that comes back, with the majority i might just repot it and let it grow on or try and get it to come back. It was shipped with what looked like regular old sphagnum that was rewetted and added to some green parts. Anyways another thing is the tips of some of it is black, any ideas?


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## lizardstowe

Everyone, 
I have been using the better-gro stuff from Lowes for about four years now, I have it on just about all my tanks. I boil it because, once upon a time I spotted a healthy brood of mites coming from a newly planted tank. I blamed the moss but it could have been the plants, not sure so I opt for safe than sorry. As for health concerns, like I said I have used it for four years and never had a problem. It's in everything from my Azureus tanks to my Retic tanks, I also use it in my "grow out" boxes that house the very sensitive newly morphed frogs. Of the countless froglets that I have raised on it, I have never lost one! I also haven't noticed any that grew slowly or were stunted in any way. 

Matt


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## KevinS

Smashtoad said:


> Just mist it often and light that sucker up good (do some wattage research)...you'll start to see the green with a couple weeks.


Thanks, I wasn't sure if I should be giving it a lot of light or keeping it well shaded. I appreciate the information.


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## Dakota05

Just curious on how much it cost and how big of a package it is.


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## Marty71

^Picked some up at Lowes a few weeks ago. Think it was $4 for the normal size bag (the only size they sell.) Bag is about the same size as a small shoebox but covers a fair amount....


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