# ~330 gallon terrarium setup. (+ some questions)



## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Hi all,

So, I am trying to build a terrarium out of a gigantic armoire I acquired through Facebook Marketplace. Its interior space is a little less than 5.5ft x 4ft x 2ft. It is quite large, and so I know that some traditional rules of terrarium maintenance / health will not apply and that I will need to ask some questions.

[_I want to say, no animal beyond microfauna is going to inhabit this terrarium, so strategies to help it grow are free from that restriction. It is not a vivarium._]

The amoire, after the doors have been temporarily removed and the shelves sawn out, looks like this:

https://imgur.com/8Jipw7r

I plan to do several things with the final setup, which I have drawn up in a notebook. It's going to include such things as:

- A waterfall, which will not be active all the time, which consists of water spilling from a piece of driftwood that resembles a dragon's skull.
- The ruins of a castle, which will surround a small indoor-friendly tree that I hope to get to grow branches through the castle.
- A background constructed of traditional spray foam + silicone + background texture + driftwood, etc. 

For some sense of what I'm doing, here's a pic of the dragon skull for the waterfall:









And a pic of (a piece of) the ruined castle wall:









So far I've used part of the shelves I cut up to make a lip to contain the false bottom and substrate, and this is what it looks like currently:









Next up on the chopping block, not necessarily in this order, are:
1) Painting the interior of the substrate / false bottom area with _several_ layers of West System epoxy or FlexSeal across several days.
2) Creating a chamber from the back of the armoire in which the waterfall pump is accessible, so that I can remove it if I absolutely have to.
3) Installing many PVC pipe pillars to hold up the eggcrate that divides false bottom and substrate.
4) Putting in the waterfall pump, surrounding by some kind of filtering foam or other substance that is both i) higher than the waterfall pump and the drainage layer's maximum height, and ii) able to permit enough water through to the waterfall pump that it can operate continuously. (If this is even possible.)

...and many other things during or after that.

I have some questions, and I'm sure I will have many more later, so that I hope someone with more knowledge than I have will be able to help me.

- *Is there anything better than layers of epoxy or flexseal for waterproofing an enclosed area? How many layers would I need to apply of one or the other?* I already have some West System epoxy, but I doubt it's enough to coat the space ~5 times, which is what I was going to aim for to make leaks impossible.

- *Is there a better substance than pond foam filter to allow water through to the pump but filter out everything else, and still allow enough water through quickly enough to operate the pump?* I will get a picture of what I'm referring to by "pond foam filter" later if needed. My tests with it right now suggest that the water flow up to the waterfall starting point is going to be interrupted frequently, because the foam only allows a tiny bit of water through while the pump is needing much more water.

I can clarify if needed. Thanks for your consideration. I know this is an ambitious project, and probably some things I've planned won't really work as I think they will. So I'd love any input.


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## Imajenn (Aug 9, 2017)

I can't wait to see the progress of this very ambitious project. If you can get everything to work out I bet it will be amazing. I hope you never want to move it though...lol


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you. I probably will have to move it one day, years from now I hope. But I will make the castle with as few connections as possible so it can be disassembled, and I will of course have to dig up all the substrate. (It was heavy enough to get in, without anything in it.)

Just a couple of notes, to myself as much to anyone else:

- Because I'm using driftwood, I decided to seal it. I already sealed the dragon head with polyurethane, which changed its appearance, too, in a more or less attractive way. I have yet to seal the "ribs" or the "arm," though. (I'm thinking of having a driftwood arm attach from across the terrarium to a piece of the ruined castle, as that will provide some support for it and provide a sort of backstory to this terrarium.)

- Regarding the castle, I'm having trouble figuring out how to make it support itself above the ground. This castle is _very_ ruined, and as such I didn't even design it in one piece, but several very broken pieces. Really, it's more of a tower than a castle. One thing I thought I could do is seal parts of the castle to the walls of the armoire before GS-foaming it and texturing it, then attach other parts to those parts. I don't know if that will work, though, and I don't have much way of knowing before I actually get most of the terrarium finished.


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Greetings,

I've had multiple vivs over the years with several having water falls or dribble walls. Three coats of West system epoxy should be sufficient to fully seal your wood but you should allow/test for any deformation of your structure due to weight. Cured west epoxy is somewhat flexible but it has its limits.

As for your water intake, I would suggest a couple of things:

Assuming you will have front access to your viv. I highly suggest using a powerhead as your water pump and placing it where you can reach into the viv from the front (maybe at the bottom of the waterfall?) to service it. A pump running 24x7 will clog no matter what your filter method and easy access will make your life more enjoyable.
Don't worry about filter foam - it won't do much for you beyond clogging the power head quickly. Instead, the plastic intake diffuser that comes with many powerheads will generally do a decent job of blocking large debris but letting small stuff (that will clog filter foam) through. I've had good luck with Rio brand power heads - they are small and cheap and they do well as waterfall pumps in false bottoms (they resist clogging pretty well).

I would have recommended against trying to seal your driftwood. Even the tiniest unsealed surface, bubble or crack will let water into the wood; the wood will swell and cause runaway failure of the sealant.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, I read your message only after I had sawn out a square in the bottom of the back wall, for retrieval for the pump from the back --- access which I believed would allow me to keep the pump entirely subterranean. My intention was to leave enough hand space for me to unscrew the pump and clean it or, if necessary, replace it, all while having it entirely underwater.

I should note:



I had intended the waterfall not to be on except for observation. The only exception to this, I think, would be if I found that the humidity it afforded for the plant life made a difference.

In the interest of better filtering the pump, I had earlier today thought to make multiple layers of eggcrate (maybe only 2), each with double-netted mosquito netting (or another filtering substance). My idea was that water should still be able to return to the waterfall pump quickly enough to replenish it, even with two eggcrates with doubly-thick netting filtering out the substrate. Of course, I recognize that even that is not a perfect solution.

It is true that I sealed the "dragon skull," although I did not seal any other driftwood. I guess I will just have to go with what i've done and hope it doesn't get warped / destroyed by soaking, because it's far too valuable to the setup to get rid of. I doubt there is another piece of wood on the planet that so perfectly gets across the image I am trying to convey.
Even though I don't think there's much I can change at this point, I am very grateful for the input. I don't know much about water-related technology like powerheads, so this intel is much needed for a project like this and future projects, too. (I will definitely consider switching out my waterfall pump, but I already have a couple of them and I've tested one of them, so I'd prefer to stick with what I have.)

EDIT: Also, after doing some searching, I can't seem to find the Rio powerhead I need! I'm using a 300-500 G/PH-capable pump that is set to 300 GPH, which is still a little strong. The closest equivalent would be the 990 L/PH model (about ~262 GPH or so), but I can't seem to find it for sale, only listed on one site.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Likely you could shave off a few GPH with a ball valve on the outlet side, or use smaller tubing to restrict the flow. Or, you could wait until the pump and lines gunk up and then you'll be right where you want to be.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Well, I was thinking of doing what I had done to past waterfalls, that is, sticking a crumpled piece of mosquito netting or something like that just into the head of the waterfall to slow down (or otherwise alter) the flow a bit. Does that mess up the water pump in any way, to have its flow restricted?

I have a couple of photographs to show a little progress:









^This is the hole I sawed into the back. I already made the eggcrate cage for it and netted it many times over, but I can't put it in until the waterproofer cures. I know it doesn't look like the height of professionalism, but the back board split while I was cutting it for reasons I didn't expect. Anyway, it's big enough for me to fit a couple hands inside and remove the pump from the tube.









^This isn't really progress, but my _ficus retusa_ came in. I know that having a tree ordinarily reserved for use as a bonsai inside of a terrarium instead is unconventional and reckless, but I've at least taken many precautions. I have a huge amount of ceiling space for light fixtures as well as some powerful lights coming in, and the _ficus retusa_ is going to be raised on a mound (within castle walls) so that it isn't swamped with moisture. (And if the waterfall proves dangerous to it, I'll just keep it off.)


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I understand that any pump can safely be restricted by restricting the flow downstream from the pump, so long as you leave enough flow to cool the pump (e.g. if you restrict a 1000gph pump to 2 gph, it will likely overheat and fail). If you restrict the flow upstream of the pump, the pump will cavitate and fail. So, restricting a moderate amount and after the pump is acceptable.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I should be fine, then. The stuffing isn't just to restrict the water, but to alter it so that it looks less like a hose shooting out water, which is what it really is.

I have a question regarding the castle walls, which I am including another photograph of:









So, to describe what exactly you are looking at, it's crossed lengths of aluminum wire attached and decorated with "Apoxie" brand epoxy clay. As far as I can remember it's nothing besides those two substances.

Now, the piece in the picture is going to be suspended above the ground; I have another piece that is going to be on the ground below but *not *connected to it, so that the two pieces are separated and display part of the _ficus retusa_ within them.

There are other fragmented pieces of the castle that are going to be in the air, so my question is, *how do I connect these pieces and keep them suspended?* They are up to 3 or 4 pounds of weight, so that epoxy clay alone --- powerful though it is --- can't connect them alone.

My options right now appear to be:

1) Attach fragments of the castle wall to the sides of the armoire and glue them + cover them in Great Stuff and silicone (which I'll be doing to build the castle, anyway), then attach the "floating" castle wall pieces to the other ones via aluminum wires and epoxy clay. This makes the weight and stability of the castle wall fragments dependent on the strength of GS foam, though, the strength of which I'm uncertain.

2) Attach those heavier castle wall fragments to the ceiling of the armoire. They'll have plenty of strength, but they may dangle, and they may interfere with maintaining the lights.

3) Give up and just lengthen every "floating" castle wall piece so that it touches the ground. The only problem with this is that it somewhat clashes with the aesthetic I'm going for, although if that's necessary, it's necessary.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Some notes to myself:


I need to consider some things for the walls of the terrarium, besides the usual spray foam + silicone + coco coir / coco husk / peat moss texture. I've played around with the usual things, like driftwood, rocks, and niches dug to allow for trailing plants, although I also have slate and pieces of castle walls available to insert. One type of item I've had around for a while that I never used due to risks to animals is the selenite crystal "wand". It can dissolve slightly in water, making it dangerous to animals drinking that water, but without any animals around, it could be a nice aesthetic, if it ends up complementing the rest of the setup. A picture of what I'm talking about, although not my exact crystals:










I need to determine whether or not these Jungle Dawn lights will survive in the humidity of my setup. It will indeed be rather humid, and these lights come with fans to prevent overheating. If they'll be safe inside an enclosure, that would be great, as that will put them closer to the plants as well, but these were expensive lights, and I want them to last a very, very long time.


I have frozen magnolia leaves I've gathered for leaf litter, and I have springtails ready to eat them and keep up the soil, but I'm not sure if I need to mix some of the leaves in with the soil (substrate I mean) to keep up the underground springtails. Or if springtails will be helpful for this kind of setup.


For that matter, I don't know if ABG mix, which I'm used to using, will be good for my _ficus retusa_.


I've gone to the Mississippi River and found a good selection of driftwood to serve as ribs and arm bones. I'm tempted to pressure wash them to get off all the rotty-ness, but I don't know if that is a good idea yet. I also don't know how I'm going to make the dragon arm that connects to the castle, because it needs to be supported both by GS foam and by the castle. It seems like a Catch-22: I have to have the foam to make the castle, but I have to have the castle to support the dragon arm, while at the same time I need the foam to support the dragon arm, too.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Is there anything else people have used to texture their foam walls with besides the usual coco coir / coco husk / peat moss / etc. ? I might consider leaving it just as cut-up black GS foam, but I don't know if that will really complement the look I'm going for.

EDIT: I'm wondering what drylok looks like, not on pink foam but on black GS spray foam? It may make more sense.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

So, some updates and explanations.









^I put the armoire on its back with some help three days ago, in order to attend to thinks like spray foaming. I live alone, so help had to be called in, as it will the next few times I have to shift the armoire.









^The driftwood intended as the dragon's head / skull had a hole drilled for the waterfall pipe, which isn't visible in the photograph. This was the first thing I did once the armoire was on its back. The pipe was long enough for the pump to rest comfortably in its cut-out chamber. I hadn't applied foam at the time of the photograph.

One of the things I did foam in, yesterday, was this castle fragment. I only did enough to fix it in place, as I'm not yet sure how the background will work:









^A brief explanation of how I make the castle fragments: a few pieces of aluminum armature wire are crossed and sealed together at the joints with epoxy clay. Once the clay links have hardened, I start adding wires in different directions, joining them where they meet. (Later, I can use a wire cutter to remove some links in order to make the castle look more "ruined".) When the aluminum-wire skeleton is made, I use epoxy clay to solidify the lines of wire that are crossing each other. Depending on the fragment, other things may be added, like walls (which are patterned like bricks and mortar using a dime), stairs, and little supplies like boxes and cannonballs. I'm not really talented enough with clay to make things finer than that.









^These eggcrate pieces, double-wrapped with mosquito netting, were made about a week ago, but I haven't fixed them inside the armoire, mostly because I haven't tested the waterfall, yet. I may be having a friend come over later this morning in order to pick it up, let me test it really quickly, then turn it off. I have, however, fitted the pieces in and am pretty close to certain that they will cover the area, excepting the cracks along the wall, which I will close with silicone.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Nice! This is a cool project


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you! It's always good to hear feedback.

I've made some progress:









^This is one of the two doors --- specifically, the left door --- sprayed with Flexseal spray on the inside. It was not a wise choice aesthetically; there are clusters of bubbles / foam that look like large scuff marks from a distance. But my limited understanding of the interactions between humidity and wood led me to go down the safe road and coat the interior of the door.

Same with the ceiling:









^Two of the three "segments" of the ceiling have been sprayed so far; I am waiting to spray the 2nd door in order to use the remainder of the spray can on that door, just as I did for the first door.

The holes are rather messy, being the product of a jab saw. I cut an outline of the hole with a circular Lenox saw bit, which made it easier for the jab saw to follow the shape. This was not intentional: I bought the saw bit thinking it could do the job itself, but found it was too much work for the power drill, being 5" in diameter. But it did do a good job of making a groove and being a compass at the same time, so I can't complain.

https://youtu.be/nKZIj0iokYs

^If this video loads, you can get kind of an idea how the waterfall works. Due to time constraints (specifically the need to put it back down and the need for another person to help me do it), I couldn't get better lighting; the clamp bracket was as far from the socket as it could be stretched.

It worked as intended --- after a clump of mosquito netting was jammed into the skull. The water dribbles down from the "chin" and the "cheek" of the skull, so that it falls more or less on the chamber where the pump will be housed, which will be covered in rocks.

There were still some leaks in the bottom, so that I will have to silicone some more to make sure everything works. I intend to leave it filled for a couple of days before I give it the thumbs up. There was a leaking spot in the front and two tiny leaking spots in the back-left wall.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I've suffered sleepless nights trying to find a proper background texture for this terrarium. I don't want to go the traditional coco coir / coco husk / peat moss route because, in my experience, that surface washes away over time, leaving black silicone that clashes with the terrarium look.

I've considered many things --- castle pieces embedded in spray foam and made of pink foam and drylok? selenite crystals? the moss-and-cork mosaic? lianas made of rope, etc.? drylok'd rock walls?

Right now, I'm considering a mix of several of those things. My inspiration came from a video game I played a long time ago, Final Fantasy XI, and a map I found very beautiful: "Sanctuary of Zi'tah." A couple of pictures:

















It was an area that combined glowing crystals, small pools, and tremendous trees. Now, I can't have all that in a terrarium, but it did get me to thinking that I could combine the idea of a moss mosaic with the crystals. This would complement spaces of plain cut Great Stuff foam, which looks like rough black rocks, especially when matched up with those other things.

Two points about the crystals:


If I am going to use selenite crystals (which would look beautiful in the light), I am sure I will need to waterproof them so they don't dissolve in bits over time. This was the very reason I chose not to include them in a vivarium; watering them could endanger animals.


Selenite crystals don't naturally converge in points, I believe; they are usually sliced at two ends by the people who extract them, as far as I can tell. To avoid this artificial look, I would need to cover both ends in spray foam or moss (or something else).


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## Pitbull (Feb 11, 2017)

Kinstrome said:


> Selenite crystals don't naturally converge in points, I believe; they are usually sliced at two ends by the people who extract them, as far as I can tell. To avoid this artificial look, I would need to cover both ends in spray foam or moss (or something else).


Selenite is also commonly sold in "tower" or "skyscraper" formations, artificially cut into a point. Those formations may fit the look you're going for without any additional scultping or crafting.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thanks, although the incremental selenite "tower" --- the one that appears to have steps cut into it and is commonly sold as a lamp --- isn't really the kind of look I would like to use. I prefer the obelisk shape of quartz crystals, but as far as I can tell selenite crystals can't be made to look like that without also looking very artificial. Obelisk selenite crystals seem to look unnaturally smoothed-over, although the natural crystals are not glass-smooth.

I thought I would show some photographs to illustrate my castle and how I am doing it:









^These are most of the materials I use to create the castle fragments. Gray epoxy clay (Part 'A' and Part 'B'), 1/8" and 1/16" aluminum armature wire, pliers-wire cutters combo tool, a wax-carving tool to make that flowery filigree on the outer-wall pillars, a utensil I used for scooping out that hard-to-extricate clay at the bottom of the container, and nitrile gloves. Not pictured but invaluable is the dime I used to create patterns.









^Some of the castle pieces that have been fixed in place with foam. I don't expect this to look comprehensible yet; the pieces look randomly placed and the foam (including some already-cut foam bits) is distracting. But there is a method! Those aluminum wires you can perhaps see circling up from the back wall are going to connect the "floating" castle piece (the one in the next photograph) to the back wall and right wall.









^Here are (most of) the castle pieces that haven't been fixed into the terrarium yet. The big, tall piece to the left is the "floating" piece that will won't touch the ground but won't directly be fixed to the walls. It will, however, be attached to other castle pieces by the aluminum wires in those pieces, as well as to the ceiling by that aluminum wire you can't see at the very top. To the right of this piece is a piece that is going to lie at the base. The floating piece and that base piece are (in theory) going to form what almost looked like a mouth when they are fixed into the proper positions, although I am skeptical that it will work as easily as I hope.

*EDIT*: What is a reasonable way to seal selenite crystals that does not mar their luster? I am sure I need to seal them, but I want them to be as beautiful afterwards as they were before.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

A bit more progress and some notes.









^I've had these couplings around for a while, but I finally got around to notching them. They are 3" long and 3" in diameter, good measurements for my purpose. They will support the eggcrate layer above the waterfall pump, but not far above it, so that the water can get high enough to cover the pump but not high enough to spill out the pump-retrieval hatch. They aren't really "notched," of course; I thought it would be good to have a cut through the whole length of them, so water can't possibly not get out.









^My springtail culture. I suppose microfauna are probably not even necessary for this kind of animal-free terrarium, but I wanted to ensure the health of the plants.









^Some polymer clay decorations, made in order to accentuate the "stories" going on in this terrarium. The gold may be put in an open wooden chest, perhaps, and the spear inserted into the bones of the dragon skeleton. Some of these (like the animals) probably won't make it into the final version, but the gold and weaponry will probably be multiplied many times over if I decide to keep them.









^The "wings" of the dragon, which have in the last couple of hours been inserted into the terrarium back wall. Like all other bones, they have been coated in polyurethane, not for waterproofing anymore but to match the tone of the skull.

This was a difficult piece for which to decide a final position, because unlike the other body parts included, wings on a reptilian animal like a lizard don't have a really clear form. I had simply to go with what looked good. There was also limited space, and the problem of keeping it suspended while the GS foam was (is) drying. My late grandmother's pill box has actually been sealed forever underneath it, as it was being used to support the wing at the correct angle.









^The right arm of the dragon. The hand will be resting on a part of the ruined castle, which it was presumably in the process of ripping apart when it perished. The wrist is technically not attached to the arm yet, as I have to wait until basically the entire castle is done to figure out what position it's going to be fastened in, but this is basically what it's going to look like.

And most importantly...









^My fire-elemental model inspects the terrarium. He says it's going in the right direction, but that it could use more fire.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Some more stuff:









^I've had this resin around for a while. Originally I bought it planning to make some form of art with it --- I had become enamored with multimedia projects like making eggs out of colored resin and root burls --- but that never manifested.

Like I said earlier, I wanted to include selenite crystals in this terrarium, but I didn't want them to dissolve in a few years from exposure to water. Yet I didn't want to lose the luster of their pearly filaments, so I looked for something to seal the crystals with. I originally tested clear Flexseal spray on the selenite, but that took away almost all of the sheen. I begrudgingly went for the epoxy resin, although something told me it would turn out exactly the same.









^Fortunately, it didn't. I won't say the crystals had the same look to them as before, but they were still rather beautiful, and in a different way. The filaments are less visible, so they look more like quartz crystals. But I've bought myself peace of mind.

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I wasn't going to post this until the project was complete, but here is a drawing of the "dragon skeleton" I made earlier for the sake of viewers who might not see the dragon in the driftwood:









^ Some notes: The vertebrae are not going to be included in the final terrarium, they are just there to give some sense of anatomy. Also, there will probably be a bit of the left hand just barely visible to the top-right of the skull, even though there is no left hand depicted.

And here are some labels for your convenience:


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

^I installed the "floating" castle piece this morning. It had to be supported by dowels in order to prevent it from falling in on itself, a challenge I had not foreseen, but like all challenges in art, it is also an opportunity to make more art. Now that I have something running through the middle of the castle, I can make more branching lines throughout it and give it a more intricate, ruined appearance.

My two concerns are:


The crossing lines may obstruct the growth of the ficus retusa in a way that I can't predict. This could also be a good thing, if it grows around it, but I don't know enough about the plant to know how it will grow in this setting.

The bigger concern, though, is:

The crossing lines may obstruct the passage of light from multiple directions. This is also very hard to predict at this point. There are, of course, six different lights, all of them flood lights (right now). It may end up being all right.

*EDIT*: A note about the castle: it's far from finished. So if there seems to be a paucity of detail somewhere, that's because I haven't attended to that area yet. I will be able to continue editing the castle even after the terrarium is "done," too.









^These aren't that important at this stage in the development, but I did want to run these past the forum in case there is a problem with using them. I purchased these at a Lowe's with the intention of using them as the "substrate" above the waterfall pump's cage / chamber. My thinking is that, being rather large and round stones, they will have big gaps between them. Thus, water will trickle through them quickly and replenish the pool from which the pump draws water. They won't cover the whole floor of the terrarium, though, just the space where the waterfall makes impact with the floor (and perhaps a little further out, where it splashes).

*EDIT*: It seems the list screwed up, although I put "LIST=2" instead of "LIST=1" for the second item.

*EDIT*: Never mind, figured out how it works.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi,

I'm not sure if you've decided on a final solution for your background texture (honestly I didn't read everything about the selenite crystals etc etc) but I did note the mention of West Systems epoxy.

Something I have done many times in the past, and with some builds am still enjoying the results of today, is to: 
1) carve/sculpt texture into my foam with a pointed, serrated blade; besides cutting in cracks, ledges etc, know that you can use the tip to peck out little pockmarks for a karst or "wonderstone" look, then
2) seal the foam with a couple coats of brushable epoxy, and finally
3) color the epoxy (either with powdered mineral pigments, or with acrylic paints). I like to start coloring maybe 30 minutes after applying the last epoxy coat, since although it's extremely sticky when still uncured, epoxy is conversely extremely non-stick when it's cured; I find it best to work with it, than to fight it (it tends to win, if you don't know how to work with it).

This method can produce some very pleasing "fake rock" that weights nothing, is utterly waterproof, and is hard-shelled and durable. I share your disdain for organics pressed into silicone as a background. These days I'm liking a combination of this "fake rock" and "cork mosaic" for my larger backgrounds.

Anyway - congrats, you've got yourself an interesting, ambitious project. I'm sure you are learning so, so, soooo much. Hopefully this project turns out well enough to stoke you to do it all again in the not-too-distant future, but even better. Take your time, do your homework, and prepare your surfaces for good adhesion whenever applicable. It'll all pay off.

good luck!


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

jgragg,

Would you happen to be able to post a photograph of one or more of your setups using this colored-epoxy method? I'm very interested.

I wouldn't say I have a disdain for organics in the background (although I'm sure I wrote something that made it sound that way), only that there are some struggles to be sure. I actually rather like three-dimensional plant life representations, but with the great amount of light that this enclosure is going to enjoy, using moss to "pretty up" the background, all the way to the top wall, is probably going to result in a lot of dead moss and an ugly dead background.

I am a little skeptical that your method of background coloration will be viable in my situation when the walls of this particular enclosure are so massive, covering so much surface area. I may not have time to paint the last layer before it totally cures! And there are so many objects in the back walls that the epoxy would surely leak over onto, say, the dragon bones or the castle. (Plus, with so much surface area, the cost of multiple epoxy layers is sure to be expensive! IIRC one gallon of West System's 105 + 207 [clear cure] is a little less than $200 USD.)

Even so, I am absolutely grateful for hearing new methods of decorating enclosures. I'd be very happy if you could produce a picture or a few pictures of this method used in a vivarium.

I also wanted to say, I am pretty much exactly at the point in development in which all the foam has been cut but no silicone or any other adhesive has been applied to decorate the cut foam. The selenite crystals have been inserted, of course, but they don't occupy much space.

This photograph I recently uploaded gives a decent idea of what the foam background looks like, although at this point the whole back wall is covered in foam. There are also a few epoxy-clad selenite crystals in the background, although some of them may be difficult to see.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I prefer to not put images online, but I can describe a few options or aspects of what I have done with foam, epoxy, and pigments. I could also text you some pics if you like. Just PM me.

First, while epoxy is like silicone and doesn't like to stick to its cured self, it sticks just fine to its partially-cured self. Basically if it still has a bit of "tack" to it, I consider it sufficiently adherent to go ahead and add another layer, or to overlap along an edge. This enables the user to not have to do a full-width coat every time they need to put on some more epoxy. My biggest wooden viv, with bulkhead, sump, and stream, was about 60"T x 33"W x 28"D. Yours might be bigger, but...that was a big viv, and I used the method I described to you (with the pigment being acrylic paints, in that case). 

_You are quite right_ to be leery of the mess-making potential of epoxy. Sweet Jesus it gets everywhere. For this reason, I blundered into a (for me...) new method, that of building my foam backgrounds in sections, coating & coloring them on all sides except that to be adhered to the viv walls, and then adhering the otherwise-completed pieces to the viv walls. If the walls are glass, great - just use silicone. If the walls are wood, and have been covered already in epoxy, you just have to scuff the epoxy on the walls, and use fresh epoxy as the adhesive to stick the foam to the walls.

West is definitely expensive stuff! I have never used it. However I have used both Polygem and Smooth-on products.
https://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/habitat-cast-coat/
https://www.polygem.com/products/zoopoxy

With Polygem I have only used the 307 lite, and with the Smooth-on I have only used their Cast & Coat. I have also used a thickening agent from Polygem, with both companies' stuff. I can heartily recommend all these, though I now prefer brushable over putty formulation for most coating applications.

Two layers of brushable will do you, if you've taken care to not leave any bare spots with the first layer. Honestly, one layer of putty will probably do you, unless you've got amazing technique with a trowel and can get that crap on there thin. I tend to lay putty on thick (thicker than necessary, but it's a bit hard to master the tool and material) - one of the reasons I now prefer the brushable formulation. Note that both companies now offer brushable and putty formulations, and also thickening agents in case the texture you want to work with is either 1) somewhere between the off-the-shelf offerings, or 2) stiffer (and less sticky!) than off-the-shelf putty.


Basically the putty is good for laying onto minimally-prepped foam, and then adding texture to that (with e.g. stippling with a thick brush, denting with crumpled tin foil or an actual rock, or creasing / "cracking" with a knife or trowel).

The brushable on the other hand, is good for when you've taken substantial care texturing your foam, and want to retain almost all that texture after the epoxy is applied. 

If you were a good hand-thrower, already a good ceramic artist or potter for example, you could add thickening agent to putty and just form up your caves or whatever. No foam.



> I actually rather like three-dimensional plant life representations, but with the great amount of light that this enclosure is going to enjoy, using moss to "pretty up" the background, all the way to the top wall, is probably going to result in a lot of dead moss and an ugly dead background.


The trick is layering placement such that the upper strata don't hog all the light. E.g., just do mini broms up top, and only run them along the back and sides. Don't fly anything into space, on branches or whatever, way up high. This is the best zone for the cork mosaic, as you can have nice drier feet for the broms by mounting to the cork, and you can have mosses occupying the dead LFS packed into the interstices. Moss won't do well lower down, with less light, anyway. There are plenty of vascular plants that will however.

Anyway, long post here - I'll sign off.

Good luck, and have fun!


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

It might also be helpful to point out - the brushable formulation I know is of a consistency much like cool (~65F?) honey. It flows (yeah, slowly, but oh it flows), and it self-levels, and interestingly, if it's applied overhead and it drips (and oh, it does drip!), the place it dripped from does not dry to a sharp point but instead it retracts into a very mild little bump. I guess there's a lot of surface tension, despite the high viscosity. If you brush it heavily onto a vertical wall, it slowly sags and runs down, and runs out onto any connecting horizontal surfaces, but a substantial thickness remains on the vertical plane too. A lot of the craft of using this stuff, is learning how much / how little to brush onto vertical and overhead surfaces, to avoid winding up with a floor coat that's about 5x thicker than everything else. But also avoid gaps in coverage. Not quite art, but definitely skilled craft.

The putty formulation on the other hand is of a consistency much like cool peanut butter. The cheap, well-emulsified, sugary stuff, not the good "nuttin' but peanuts" stuff that is much stiffer, that you have to stir yourself. You can trowel putty overhead or on vertical surfaces and it stays there just like you placed it. No sag, no drip, no nothing.

Adding the thickening agent reduces the stickiness and viscosity of either formulation (which starts out as super-duper sticky!), such that you can form shapes by gloved hand. It's easy to just start small and keep adding agent and kneading it in until you get the consistency right where you like it. Without the thickening agent, you can do a bit of that hand-placing and hand-shaping with the putty formulation *if you keep dipping* your hand (or other tool, like putty knife or trowel) in water. Otherwise it's hopelessly sticky. 


When I'm working with putty I always have a roll of paper towels, a trash can, a box of disposable gloves, and a disposable vessel full of water, large enough to accommodate dipping my tool(s) and paper towels into it. I use a lot of paper towels to keep my gloved hands quite clean, and the tool(s) cleanish. Avoid heavy build-up, or the stickiness starts to dominate. Just moisten a paper towel, grab the tool or wipe your hand with it, and pull or wipe off as much putty as you can. Repeat until clean/cleanish.

When I'm working with the brushable stuff I have the paper towels, the gloves, and the trash can. Just no water. No dipping the tool, which is just a non-shedding brush. 

Putty is less messy for your surrounding environment. It can only move where you accidentally transfer it (and you will!). The brushable is VASTLY more messy, because it drips, or self-vectors if you prefer. Much like with painting, working with epoxy requires wearing "garbage clothes and shoes".

It is my impression that West Systems epoxy is much, much runnier than either of the off-the-shelf formulations I have described. It appears to be somewhere between water and hot syrup, I'd say. Anyway - maybe that's where "5 coats" of West comes from? That could well be what's recommended for their stuff.

Incidentally, last weekend I killed the dregs of a 1.5-gal kit of Habitat Cast & Coat (brushable) I had bought over the winter. Being a voracious viv crafter, last night I re-upped, and bought a 2-gal kit of 307-lite (putty). Straight from the manufacturer, the 2-gal kit cost about $120. Just a point of reference to West, and your mention of ~$200/gal.

OK, hope you also find this useful and interesting. Good luck moving ahead productively, with minimal frustration and waste.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

jgragg,

As before, I am very grateful for these greatly detailed posts. The former of the two more recent posts, the one explaining the putty versus the brushable, this post I read twice over thoroughly, because I know that this information will be invaluable as I continue making terraria / vivaria. (I have only had a moment to skim over the latter of these two posts, but I will scrutinize it more later.)

I will say, however, that I am likely not going to be able to take advantage of these substances for this particular terrarium, due to the aesthetic I am aiming for --- if, of course, I am imagining what these backgrounds of yours have the potential to look like.

This is an issue I have struggled with even during the early concepts of this project. *What is an appropriate background for a scene with a dragon and a ruined castle?* Those are not typical terrarium or vivarium (and definitely not paludarium) subject matter. An ordinary terrarium tries to mimic nature, not fantasy. Even the ones that incorporate fantastical elements --- like the recent fairy-garden vivarium --- do so on a smaller scale and with subjects like fairy buildings that can work easily with a natural setting.

I had thought about embedding pink foam _beneath_ the Great Stuff foam to give the idea of a castle gate peeking through the earthen walls under which it has been buried. That was probably the nearest to a plausible setting for the dragon and the "keep" of the castle. But I didn't like the idea of another castle wall made out of another material surrounding the first castle (what one could call the "keep"), which was made out of epoxy clay.

Moss --- or a crapload of epiphytes --- along with shiny crystals is the nearest I can get to the aesthetic I am going for, which is somewhat muddy and vague. I am basing the idea of crystals and forests together off of _The Sanctuary of Zi'Tah_, a part of an MMORPG I played when I was much younger.

I was thinking of the intel you gave about putting moss or neoregelias here or there on the wall to help them survive. I had a bit of trouble understanding it completely. *Do you think it would be a good idea for me to make a graph with divided parts so you could better point out which sections of the wall need which kinds of plant life?* For instance, the last foot below the ceiling of the terrarium could have a bracket designated "A", then the foot below that as "B", etc. I would try to make it as easy as possible to see what I'm talking about.

Thanks again for the intel.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I went ahead and made a diagram anyway, because I had time:









^ "A," "B," "C," and "D" correspond to segments of the terrarium's total height from the substrate to the ceiling. I was hoping somebody could tell me something like " 'A' is exclusively for neoregelias," or " 'C' and 'D' are bad zones to mount mosses" or "All epiphytes want to be at least as high as 'C' if they want to have enough light," or something that uses those lettered zones to explain where different types of wall-mounted plants should be.

I also include a photograph of what the terrarium looks like right now, to better understand the graph, although I didn't really want to preview my whole terrarium until it was practically done:









^In case this looks like utter chaos, I'll explain a little. The dragon is what you see in all the driftwood; the castle is the gray structure that occupies the right side of the terrarium; all the black bits that look like dried lava are cut (or yet-to-be-cut) Great Stuff foam.

*EDIT*: Because the forum seems to adjust vertical photos to be horizontal, the dragon on the "left" half is actually on the bottom half and the castle on the "right" half is actually on the top half.









^This is the left arm that had been planned for part of the terrarium. It was going to be mounted above-right of the skull, and would have had its fingers spread under one of the lights, creating an interesting trick of light. 

For now, though, unless I find some unforeseen way to make it work, I've decided to exclude it from the terrarium. I found great difficulty in making it look like it was really part of this dragon, when it emerges from the foam.

(A note: The pieces in the photograph would have been cut shorter than they are; otherwise, they would never have fit at all. I just never ended up cutting those pieces of driftwood, because I realize the left hand would not work.)


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi again,

Your graph paper chart was helpful. In short, lighting really tall vivs (I know this won't have animals, but it's a viv to me 'cause there's "life in a box") is a bitch. While some of the material (e.g. there's more linear LEDs around now) is aging, the basics of this (e.g., the inverse square rule) are still helpful:

NEHERP - Vivarium Lighting 101 - Everything you need to know, to grow plants in a live vivarium

You could also call the guy at Spectral Designs for a consultation and a custom-build quote.

Elsewhere I saw you respond to Dane's info about growing lush mosses etc. Whether or not you install fans, I think you'll want (well, need) some passive ventilation. Basically, put "some holes" (either go for technical detail, or wing it with a fudge factor) down by the substrate, preferably in the front, and some holes up top, preferably in the back.

Hand misting can be fine, but you may tire of it. And, don't you ever leave town for a while? Visit family at Christmas, go on business trips, or whatever? Maintaining, and especially establishing, a lush viv with hand misting alone is tricky - all it takes is a few dry days to set you back weeks or worse. Luckily amending your armoire to accept an automated system won't be hard. Just a little drilling and screwing. More important will be to - up front, now - install drainage. In a wood box, you need drainage! (And air flow...)

Hey FWIW I think with the dragon & castle theme (love the whimsy BTW), _plants with smaller leaves_ are gonna look better, for the most part. There are some epiphytic ferns (e.g., _Microgramma vaccinifolia_), a few hardy club mosses (e.g. "peacock moss", _Selaginella uncinat_a), a number of small-leaved vascular plants such as baby's tears, etc. And of course, plenty of true mosses.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I read the NEHERP guide a while ago, although I could use a refresher and will read it again. I have some Jungle Dawn lights ready for the terrarium, if they are a wise fit for it. I probably won't be able to mount one of the vertical strips because of the cutting I've already done (all the circles made for a specific size of lamp), unless the lights I have are entirely inadequate, in which case I suppose I can seal those holes.

I have the materials to create drainage; I only have had reservations about doing so because of my experience with bulkheads in the past. In my previous large-scale terrarium, which was also wood-built, I was preeeeetty darn sure I had tightened the bulkhead to the point that it could not possibly leak. But 6 months later I noticed the wood on the outside starting to rot. In this terrarium's case, I have taken pretty good precautions against leaking in the drainage layer, so if I can install a bulkhead safely, I have no opposition to doing so. Only I fear the consequences of a not-perfectly-installed bulkhead.

On the subject of ventilation, I think that that will not be as impossible as I thought, if the PC fans that I can buy are easily hooked up to a power source and are as small as I'm thinking they are.

The misting system won't be bad, either, if I can get by with the basic Mistking system or, at most, the Ultimate. I looked up some videos on how to install it, and it doesn't seem too bad.

I agree that smaller-leaved plants will probably look better, especially because the non-plant imagery in the terrarium already requires people to squint to see what's supposed to be going on. That's part of the reason I wanted moss in the background.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> In my previous large-scale terrarium, which was also wood-built, I was preeeeetty darn sure I had tightened the bulkhead to the point that it could not possibly leak. But 6 months later I noticed the wood on the outside starting to rot.


A cheap insurance policy is to carry your epoxy or other waterproofing from the inside of the viv, right down & out through the bulkhead penetration, and lap it around the bottom/outside of the hole about 2".


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

A silly question: where am I putting this bulkhead? The one I have doesn't appear to have a stopper to prevent it from running all the time, so I am assuming that it's supposed to be run as a preventative against the water getting too high, and thus is positioned _above_ the desired water line. But, of course, I have the rectangular pump access chamber that already performs roughly the same function.

Should I put this just above where the water is supposed to go to, or should I find one with a stopper on the outside and just put it "underwater" so to speak?

Also, which dimensions / stats should I look for in a PC fan, and how many do you think I will need considering the dimensions of my terrarium (roughly ~250 gallons of non-substrate open space)?


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

I'll leave the fan thing to others, as I do not use them. I keep snakes; active ventilation would literally be the death of them. Passive ventilation _and plenty of it_, is how I roll.

I prefer bottom mounts for bulkheads, period. That way you have very little dead pool - gravity alone will just about empty you out. If you want to maintain some depth you can just install a standpipe. When I do this, I like the bulkhead out in the open (like, in the bottom of an exposed pool, and *not* hidden away inside the false bottom) and the standpipe not glued in, so I can just reach in & pull the plug, so to speak, and get a full-volume dump. I have even seen some guys (fish guys, in their formative years I guess?) have a strainer atop the standpipe and also some little holes or slits down near the bottom and half-way to the top, so they were pulling off different elevations of the water column. Dirty water would be skimming off the surface, and also sucking in off the bottom. This is more for hyper-messy animals like turtles. But it's also cheap insurance against clogs & overflows - there's another route out for the water, somewhere along the length of the standpipe, until the top-most strainer is also clogged & then you're done for.

I have done some tanks with rear-or side-mounted bulkheads. Those were accommodations to the shelving I was using. Since then, I always go bottom mount, and if need be I will now lift the tank on rails or stilts or whatever, so there's room for the hose and such coming out the bottom. It's just where experience has got me to; I'm sure there are plenty of guys still happy with their side or rear - or even front - mounts.

If it helps, imagine the water pressure imparted by different depths. That pressure is always working against your waterproofing materials & methods. Less pressure is better - no pressure (just humid air!) is best. At an extreme, you could form the bottom of your viv like the bottom of a shower - everything sloping towards the drain. No standing water, period. I don't go that far, but I do now shoot for minimal standing water in all new builds.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Unfortunately, I am just about not going to be able to avoid having a standing water supply if I am going to have a waterfall working at all. If I can install a standing pipe that happens to be above the level of water necessary to maintain the waterfall, I will consider a bottom-of-the-box drainage system, although there isn't much room under the armoire to put that kind of thing.

Really, I'd like to have drainage only present beyond the water level, because of how afraid I am that a drainage port located within the "normal" water level will screw up and perhaps render the entire terrarium unusable. (And certainly render the waterfall unusable.)

Is there an inherent problem with standing water in a non-vivarium, a problem that isn't related to leaking? I've put so many layers of waterproofing agents that I would find it hard to imagine leakage occurring once the armoire is back on its feet. Does the water fester if it sits for too long, and become dangerous to the plant life?

I must say, I am *very* interested in the idea of a safe snake vivarium. I, too, own only snakes as far as herps go --- a ball python and a BCI --- and my history of trying to build an attractive terrarium for them is a lengthy chronicle that ultimately ended in just putting them in plain acrylic enclosures with newspaper floors, plastic hides, and no plant life whatsoever.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh, I'm sorry - in looking at the pictures of the armoire I imagined the "floor" of the display space (not the "working" space) being suspended above the void where you've got your access hole cut in the back. 

I saw what I suppose is the framework for a drawer (2 "rings" of 1x2 looking millwork) and assumed the upper "ring" (or something in that neighborhood) was going to support a sheet of plywood. 
That is where I'd put a bulkhead. 
The access hole would permit access to the pump/filter, and to a sump/drain bucket or other vessel (even just a plastic shoebox could work, if it would hold enough water to produce your stream; it is critical that your vessel be large enough to hold _the entire volume_ of system water).

Hmm. I suppose something like a vertical partition, running across the width of the armoire in that lower area, could serve your needs. The front could hold your reservoir of water. The back could house your pump (not a submesible pump, more like a canister filter). If the pump sits lower than the top of the water, I think that would keep it happier. You'd have to break the suction every time you service the pump, otherwise you've got a mess on the floor. And you'd need a dependably self-priming pump, to get the water up over the partition. But...it could work. Maybe we need some more pictures (better than thumbnails?) of the bottom end of the armoire, and some more guidance on how you hope to use it?



> Is there an inherent problem with standing water in a non-vivarium, a problem that isn't related to leaking? I've put so many layers of waterproofing agents that I would find it hard to imagine leakage occurring once the armoire is back on its feet. Does the water fester if it sits for too long, and become dangerous to the plant life?


Oh, this is a tiny naughty bit humorous. Many would answer that the inherent problem, _is the water feature itself_! But I would answer "no, not really". Many might also imagine a smart-assed crack like "don't let your limited imagination fool you into hoping for the best!" (Water _is_ kind of a bastard, I will admit.) I'd say water that doesn't have stuff leaching into it, and that is being used and acted on by aerobic life forms, does not tend to fester. Particularly if there is some agitation, and plenty of air contact. You could, if you wanted, put in an inline charcoal canister (or use a canister filter for your pump). That would remove odors and colors from the water.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I'm going to attempt to link photographs with Imgur, although that hasn't worked well all of the time, because of some stupid crap Imgur does in which it doesn't let me load images from my laptop or phone. (it's the main reason I use the in-forum system of photo linking.)

Some of these photos will probably be unintentionally sideways, but I can't change that because I can't re-take some photos.



^This is the armoire when the only things that had been done to it were cutting out the shelves (which is what I assume you mean by "drawers") and using the boards from one of the shelves to create a barrier to contain the drainage layer / substrate layer. Some notes to clarify what you're seeing:


The three open circles you see cut into the back wall are *NOT* in any way related to the project. They were presumably created by the armoire-builders in order to allow power cords through the different shelf layers (which makes NO sense given how old this piece of furniture otherwise appears to be). Since the time of this photograph, they have been sealed shut completely and waterproofed several times over.


The rectangle that allows access to the waterfall pump has not been cut yet.


I assume what you mean by "rings" are the remains of the shelves, which had to be jig saw'd out because they were neither removable nor desired. If that is what you are referring to, there are two of them. The lower of the two --- which closely lines up with the vertical barrier that I put up in the front of the armoire --- is more or less the demarcation line for the substrate.

Now, the next photograph --- which is not that good, but which couldn't be any better considering that the armoire is on its side right now --- has the waterfall pump's rectangle-shaped opening:



(Okay, maybe that photo could have been taken a little bit better, but my hands are shaky right now.)

What you see in this photo, at about the middle, are the waterfall pump dangling by its serrated hose, and the power cord dangling from the pump. That rectangle that the serrated hose is passing through is the rectangular opening I'm referring to. It starts about ~4.5 inches off of the floor of the armoire (to the left of it in this picture) and ends about 3 inches below the first cut-out shelf.

Now here are front-and-back photographs of what the eggcrate / PVC pipe / mosquito netting part of the false bottom are going to look like:




It's a basic eggcrate + PVC + filtering material setup, but I created an extra box to protect the pump from the substrate while also allowing water to pass easily into it.

(I'm waiting for the "holy crap, you need to start all over" shoe to drop!)

I can see how, if water purity is the goal, this is not a perfect solution. I will say that I've zip-tied several layers of mosquito netting to each segment of eggcrate, but I am not so foolish to think that that means no particles, ever, will make their way to the waterfall pump. That's why I left the serrated hose loose, so I can pull the pump out and clean it out once in a while.

I'm not quite sure how I could create a vertical partition in this particular terrarium even if I started all over with the drainage layer and scrapped everything drainage-related that I did so far. My reason for saying this is that the whole surface of the ground is going to be ground, and even though the waterfall is only supposed to land in one place, likely the water from misting and from whatever else is going to seep into the drainage layer from every part of the substrate. I may be misunderstanding, though.

Thank you again for another detailed response. I know dealing with all these questions must be trying, and I am very grateful for your indulging my concerns and answering them. Have a good one !


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh, these pictures & text are most instructive, thanks.



> (I'm waiting for the "holy crap, you need to start all over" shoe to drop!)


Nope, not gonna happen! I can definitely see your setup working. I would strongly recommend some energetic leak-testing ASAP however - does your sealed wooden basin hold water? If you discover you have a problem, might I suggest "going nuclear" - go get yourself a piece of pond liner e.g., EPDM.



> I assume what you mean by "rings" are the remains of the shelves, which had to be jig saw'd out because they were neither removable nor desired. If that is what you are referring to, there are two of them. The lower of the two --- which closely lines up with the vertical barrier that I put up in the front of the armoire --- is more or less the demarcation line for the substrate.


Yes, I see now. They looked like the sort of wooden rails old-school chests of drawers used. I assume when you say "demarcation line" you mean the top or "finish" elevation of the substrate.

Here's what may be a jarring few questions. Do you need an organic substrate? Heck, do you even need a particulate substrate? Using something inorganic will help maintain water quality - "don't make tea!". Could you get away with something as simple as a centimeter of TurfAce? Or maybe even something like artificial turf right atop your screen? If weight is not a concern, how about pea gravel or larger cobbles? Or angular stones of...whatever size seems right for your application? Many cliffs have a steep colluvial deposit below them - a talus ramp, if you will. 

Something motivating the questions - that height (even with ZERO intervening objects like branches, leaves etc) is hard to light adequately for ground-stratum live plants. And, as your upper-strata plants mature and grow, the shade down low will deepen into a true gloom. What if you let that problem just go away? Just have plants mounted on the background, sides (if you wish) and maybe on some branches? And turn the bug (the gloom) into a feature (some fantasy Hell-land, or where the Dwarves or Gollum live, or some such?).

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Glad to hear the eggcrate doesn't need to be re-done  Cutting all those eggcrate pieces to the unusual contours of the armoire's interior was a hassle and made a huge mess in what is not really even my living room to make a mess in.

As far as surface plants go: it is true that I could make an inorganic surface feasible _except_ for one feature of this terrarium that I only briefly touched on: the _ficus retusa_. 

[I can't load a non-thumbnail pic of the _retusa_ because I'm typing on my laptop and it is mysteriously impossible for Imgur to load images, even though my laptop and my PC are virtually the same in every meaningful way.

There is a sideways pic earlier in the thread, though.]

The very original premise of this terrarium, which preceded all others, was of a ruined castle being consumed by a living plant. I was advised on this board to get _ficus microcarpa_, but I settled on _retusa_ for price-related reasons.

Because evidently _retusa_ dislikes being saturated in water, I was going to build it on a mound inside the castle ... it's kind of complicated to explain, or to convey a faithful mental picture of what it's supposed to look like. Basically, I wanted the tree to grow through the intricate interior of the castle under a Jungle Dawn "mega spotlight" (or two), and the mound of earth would both aid in the tree not being saturated by the water in the rest of the substrate and aid also in it getting enough light from the Jungle Dawn light.

That's 100% theory. I recognize that that isn't exactly a scientific strategy for making the plant grow safely. I had also heard recently, from you or someone else, that fertilizer isn't a good idea. 

I _could_ make the entire substrate except for the tree part just be river stones, the relatively inexpensive kind that I photographed earlier in the thread. Although that would be attractive in some way, I don't know if that's really the look I'm going for. Besides, I already have something like 10 gallons of ABG mix* ready right now. Plus many gallons of already-frozen magnolia leaves for leaf litter / springtail food.

*I wanted to say, I have NO IDEA about whether or not ABG mix is suitable substrate for a ficus tree like the one I am going to put in. I wasn't able to find that information, probably because not that many people want to put bonsai trees inside their terrariums.

*EDIT*: I should clarify about the water testing: I think I said something misleading about the waterproofing testing that I've done. I _have_ tested it two separate times, but I haven't done the final test for ~48 hours that confirms it's watertight. In both of the tests, I discovered leaks, which I then siliconed and epoxy'd. I will see what's up in the final test.

The good news was that it was hole-related leaks, and not water seeping through the wood. Well, I guess that's good news.

*EDIT*: Not to make a long post longer, but I wanted also to acknowledge the point about lighting substrate-level plants. I was planning to create the "sunken" look that my other terrarium has, by which I mean, I was going to cheat and use a tradescantia / wandering jew-like plant that just about can't die and covers the ground quickly. My other terrarium has this plant growing all the way from the ground, 4 feet down, and it's using a bulb with less than half the illuminance that this Jungle Dawn bulb evidently has.

Not a long-term strategy, clearly, but I can always remove it if it truly takes over.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

OK, you're going for some kind of Angkor Wat / Tikal look, with the banyan coming out of the ruin. I get that. Should be fun.

No woody ficus I know of likes wet feet. 

Nope, I didn't say anything about fertilizer. I'm not sure - given there will be no animals - why that would be a terrible idea. If used lightly - ideally, only apply as much as the plant will consume. I expect you'd like some rapid growth up to desired size, then you'll back off the food and prune aggressively, so as to +/- bonsai it.



> *I wanted to say, I have NO IDEA about whether or not ABG mix is suitable substrate for a ficus tree like the one I am going to put in. I wasn't able to find that information, probably because not that many people want to put bonsai trees inside their terrariums.


*I think it'll love it.* Non-compacting, moisture holding, and well drained? Few plants don't appreciate those attributes. Certainly not terrestrial ones from the humid tropics.

Idea - most woody ficus have pretty assertive aerial adventitious roots. You could build into the background, suitable colonization sites (pockets of terrestrial substrate, or, some cork mosaic with moss packed between the cork bits). Eventually you could wind up with a very exotic "strangler fig" kind of look, with woody, weaving, barked roots creeping all over.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Before I get going any further, I wanted to ask --- is there any problem with just using aquarium safe silicone to stick moss on the GS foam and create a moss-wall (with some epiphytes on cork bits) ? It seems kind of harebrained, and I haven't run the idea past anybody. It's not totally too late for me to just line the whole background with cork flats to support moss, if that's what's needed, but that would be tough and I'm not sure it would look quite right.

Anyway!

Thanks for the input, I'm much more confident about the ABG mix for the tree.

Yeah, I'm sort of going for the Angkor Wat look in concept, but not the exact banyan-over-asian-ruins kind. The castle is meant to look a tad more like a European fantasy castle. But yes, it is meant to have the plant peeking through the different cracks and ruined areas of the castle, and if the aerial roots want to take over the bottom parts, I have no problem with that.

I'd like the roots to do that, but I guess I'll need cork bark at the base to make it work. For that matter, is it necessary to have cork for the moss to stay stable and alive, or can the moss just be supported by silicone, get its light and misting, and survive? I want to know before I appear with a pic of a moss-covered wall and hear, "...yeah, that's probably all going to die."


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> is there any problem with just using aquarium safe silicone to stick moss on the GS foam and create a moss-wall (with some epiphytes on cork bits) ?


Well, no. I happen to think there are better ways to do it, though. More below. In short, I hate the way silicone shines through, once whatever you've stuck to it wears off. It's f*ckin ugly is all.



> It's not totally too late for me to just line the whole background with cork flats to support moss, if that's what's needed, but that would be tough and I'm not sure it would look quite right.


Also not necessary, and I happen to agree with your aesthetic instincts. More below.



> But yes, it is meant to have the plant peeking through the different cracks and ruined areas of the castle, and if the aerial roots want to take over the bottom parts, I have no problem with that.
> 
> I'd like the roots to do that, but I guess I'll need cork bark at the base to make it work. For that matter, is it necessary to have cork for the moss to stay stable and alive, or can the moss just be supported by silicone, get its light and misting, and survive?


OK, so, once again I'm giving this just a portion of my attention, and I'm also not quite able to resolve a picture of your final product in my imagination. Specifically, the relative height of the castle (halfway up the back? a third?) and how far towards the front it sticks (and how much light will get down there past it).

Anyway - of more immediate import - I suggest a "cork mosaic" using cork pieces, and intentional gaps just friction-stuffed with dead horticultural long-fiber sphagnum (LFS). For example the compressed stuff for sale on Glassbox Tropicals. Or the cheap bales you can get in the garden section of WalMart. Whichever. (The cheap stuff throws more "volunteers", the fancier stuff is pretty well killed dead, which gives you an easier blank canvas, if you like.) So you would silicone or otherwise adhere the cork bits, and just stuff the cracks a few days later with your LFS. The LFS, if adequately misted, dripped, whatever, will support live moss & other plants. It will also be happily invaded by adventitious roots of anything growing nearby (broms, epiphyic ferns, orchids, ficus, etc etc). You can mount many of those to the nearby cork. And, some mosses will venture out onto the cork. The margins at least, if you're niggardly with water. If you're generous some may cover most of the cork. But at that point, you're disadvantaging many other plants, so...I wouldn't aim for that. The LFS holds water great, if you just soak it once a day the moss will be stoked.

The key thing to remember is, moss needs light too! Hence my questions about overall layout, where's this castle going, etc. Another big thing - moss grows best on organic surfaces. Jeez, with enough light and frequent watering you can get it to grow on glass for God's sake, but do it a favor and _offer it something more conducive_. It will reward you with faster growth, better coverage, better resilience to vagaries of watering etc etc etc.

Hope this quick note is more helpful than confusing.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

> I'm also not quite able to resolve a picture of your final product in my imagination. Specifically, the relative height of the castle (halfway up the back? a third?) and how far towards the front it sticks (and how much light will get down there past it).


That's a good question for the both of us! I really don't have a clear idea of how the light will interact with the whole castle installed, and that's because:


Part of the castle had to be installed while the armoire was on its back, and it hasn't been on its feet since then.

It's not reasonable to lift the armoire all the way up to standing without someone else's help.

The JD "mega spotlights" that provide a crapload of light can only really be tested over the castle while the armoire is standing, because they're in wire fixtures that don't fix to the hole in the wall like the broad floodlights + solid fixtures do.

What I _suspect_ is that about 4 of the 6 ceiling lights will reach the right wall (which is the wall most blocked by the castle) in some capacity, some being blocked by some castle bits but not by others, others passing through those castle bits but being blocked elsewhere.

It is unfortunate, though, that without taking very good video footage (with a tripod or something) that curves around the castle, it is really hard to give a good idea of what the castle looks like. It is a thoroughly three-dimensional object. I wouldn't want someone to bore themselves, either, scrutinizing a video of ... a clay castle, moving back and forth.



> Anyway - of more immediate import - I suggest a "cork mosaic" using cork pieces, and intentional gaps just friction-stuffed with dead horticultural long-fiber sphagnum (LFS). For example the compressed stuff for sale on Glassbox Tropicals. Or the cheap bales you can get in the garden section of WalMart. Whichever. (The cheap stuff throws more "volunteers", the fancier stuff is pretty well killed dead, which gives you an easier blank canvas, if you like.) So you would silicone or otherwise adhere the cork bits, and just stuff the cracks a few days later with your LFS.


I had done a little research into the cork mosaic a year or two ago, whenever I mostly lurked here. It seems like a neat idea, and I have a great supply of cork flats and LFS to work it, but I ran aground trying to understand it, both then and now:



> The LFS, if adequately misted, dripped, whatever, will support live moss & other plants.


I'm not quite sure I understood how a bunch of loose strands of sphagnum keep a patch of moss in place?

[I should clarify something I had been meaning to post about, that is: I'm planning to use the many mosses that live naturally around Louisiana, which I put in a large pot, clean for 24 hours in water, and wring out and put in sealed plastic bags (which are put under light, of course).

So my moss is mostly in living patches, not the Dusk slurry, etc. if that's a problem?]

It just seems like the moss --- the desired moss, not the LFS that roots it there --- is likely to just plop out of the mosaic cracks, which are going to be already partially filled by LFS.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. The mosaic has always sounded wonderful, except for this one hangup.

[Another sidenote if you care, which I'm going to find an interesting color for in order to delineate the different thoughts in this big post:

I have an old "moss bank" I've mostly forgotten about, in completely airtight / watertight Ziploc-brand plastic boxes. They are outside, but they get pretty limited light, being stacked on top of one another. This is where I am confused about the moss / light matter: even with limited light, they *EXPLODED* in growth. Like, I have never seen moss anywhere in real life that has done as well as these mosses. I'll post a photograph later if that will clarify why this is the case.]


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

The crevices one forms by adhering the thick cork bits fairly close to each other should be about as wide as the cork is thick. So, between two pieces of 1" thick cork, would be a gap about 1" wide.

Into those crevices, you just stuff the bejeezus out of that LFS. I like to take a bucket and use that for rehydrating my LFS. Just toss in the dry LFS, add a pint or two of water, and go away for 15-20 minutes. Then pour off the excess water, give the moss a bit of a squeeze (not back into the bucket - elsewhere) to wring out the excess. and chuck the limp wet moss back in the bucket.

I like to grab handfuls of the wet LFS, twist them into "sausages" or "units" or "cigars", and then stuff those bodily into the crevices. Pack it hard. If the crevice depth isn't filled flush, I like to push on the end(s) of the "unit" so as to reduce its length and thicken it up, until the outer surface of the LFS is flush with that of the cork. The next "unit" goes right next to, and butted up against, the last one. Pack them all hard. You want water squeezing out of every push on every "unit", and when you're done emptying your bucket, which may take 20-30 minutes, sore tired fingers.

Continue until all the crevices are full. You'll be amazed how much LFS this consumes. A lot, OK? Ha ha. About 100g dry weight of LFS, to a gallon of cork pieces is my consumption rate, given my crevice width. 100g of dry LFS - which can compress to a little dinky flat-pack, expands to about a gallon of wet LFS.

Now, about establishing moss on this stuff. There's several ways to go about it:

if you use the cheap stuff, you'll probably get volunteers
if you use the expensive stuff, you'll definitely need to "seed it"
to "seed it" you could use a commercial slurry, and just "paint" it right onto the LFS, once you've finished packing
however, you (like me) seem interested in harvesting local wild moss - in that case, I think maybe you want to collect some of that first, and chop it up into maybe BB-sized pieces, and stir that into your wrung-out bucket of LFS, before packing it
alternatively you can make your own slurry and paint it on, just like you would with a commercially-sourced moss mix
finally, you can toothpick pieces of wild moss (maybe your "moss bank"?) onto your LFS; some growth forms readily facilitate such "farming", while others are more prone to falling apart and being a PITA - those forms might be better to chop & mix as described above



> I have an old "moss bank" I've mostly forgotten about, in completely airtight / watertight Ziploc-brand plastic boxes. They are outside, but they get pretty limited light, being stacked on top of one another. This is where I am confused about the moss / light matter: even with limited light, they EXPLODED in growth. Like, I have never seen moss anywhere in real life that has done as well as these mosses. I'll post a photograph later if that will clarify why this is the case.]


When I collect moss from the wild, I use ziplocs with wet paper towels in them. Grown chunks of moss will tolerate surprising amounts of manhandling and neglect. Establishing new moss is a whole different proposition. As is maintaining long-term survival. And finally, the sun is bright as hell. Even "shade" outside is relatively bright as hell. No matter how intense your indoor light, I doubt you'll be providing what those baggies were getting outside. And, the 100% humidity provided by the bags no doubt has buffered other difficult circumstances like being stacked. All this is a long way to say, don't expect similar performance indoors in your armoire, as outdoors in those baggies. You could get lucky...but I wouldn't plan on it. You're probably going to have to put a little effort into it.

Hopefully this helps!

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

This is very good and helpful information, and I'll get to work on it. I'm not sure how I'll mount the cork, except by putting the armoire back on all the sides I thought I was done putting it on. (Unless I can somehow safely silicone the cork pieces onto the walls while the armoire is vertical by use of wires and such.)

If every form of moss can be chopped-and-mixed without certain death from the chopping part --- that is to say, if every form of moss can be chopped into bits and still survive and grow --- then I have no opposition to cutting up my many gallons of moss and stirring them into LFS in order to create a mix that grows out of the LFS in the cracks.

I am a wee bit concerned that as complicated a background as mine will be able to support without losing the parts of the design. The driftwood dragon may become hard to discern for a while, what with cork bits between its ribs and arm and wings. I guess I will just have to take it on faith that the moss will grow onto the cork bits and hide it. I suspect it is already difficult for viewers of this thread to distinguish the dragon from the surrounding images and textures.

I meant to post images that would illustrate what my background looks like up close, but I'm a tad fatigued from a dodgeball playoff last night. Besides the driftwood and the clay castle, it's basically just fields of cut-up black GS foam interrupted occasionally by cork flat bits and selenite crystals.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned - 

1) WEAR GLOVES. There's a yucky little fungal disease you can get from moss. I forget what they call it. Rose gardener's disease or something. It's rare but you don't want it.

2) Layout. I spend quite a lot of time - say, 20 minutes a gallon of cork pieces - just playing jigsaw puzzle with my pieces. Arrange, and rearrange, and rearrange them, until you've got them laying like you want. There's big pieces and small pieces, long skinny ones and squarish ones, maybe some triangular ones. Plus some are thicker, some are thinner. The thick ones allow for bigger gaps, whereas the thin ones require closer spacing. Also, some pieces don't look good along the margins. Or, a piece will have a clearly superior "outside edge". Some pieces are real flat, others are quite cupped. The cup ones are great at the top, or along the front edge, as planters. My point is, there's _a ton of options_ for how to fit any population of cork bits together. Give it some time. *You'll be looking at your work for years.* Regrets kind of suck...

Part of this is aesthetic - do the ridges and shapes of the bark "flow" harmoniously - maybe even flowing in an arc or curve, or together from 2 streams into a bigger one - like they do on a real tree, or do they look like some demented clown vomited them onto the viv? (_Obviously I have an opinion on the right way to do this...ha ha ha. But do as you like!_)
Part of this is functional - how is water going to flow, or be restricted from flowing, through the LFS? Even something as simple as having the pieces going vertically, or horizontally, or diagonally, will have a big effect on how easy it is to get water to everything rooted into that LFS later. Google some pictures of brick bonds. Think about water flowing through the mortar cracks. Then think about your cork layout. Obviously you're not going to do something as regular and monotonous as a bricklayer. But I find it helps, in imagining the water movement through my LFS, around my cork pieces (mostly around - some water, a minority of the total volume, will ooze out and just drip straight down off or over the cork, hopefully running into the LFS below, maybe falling all the way to the substrate).

It's WAY easiest if you've got your viv laid back so the cork can just lay there. You can tape it up, but that's a damned hassle. For one thing, cork is perversely resistant to masking tape stickiness! It does not stay stuck, it just slips down. You really have to support it from below, not just across, if trying to tape it

Note that the cork pieces may lay there nice and firmly, or they may want to rock around on e.g. 3 points of contact. You can improve (enlarge & flatten) your contact points with judicious trimming. I like an oscillating multitool for this job. (I don't try to _eliminate_ gaps behind the cork, as I can fill these with LFS during packing, or with ABG mix if it's a top-edge piece, and support more roots there.)

Once you've got your layout, leave everything in place. Take your black fish-safe silicone and squirt blobs or lines onto the contact points of one piece. It may or may not matter which piece you start with - figure that out before you begin! I like to whip through this glue-down phase, as I find the fumes pretty nasty. When you're done you can toss some wet paper towels, or some wet LFS, atop the cork to provide curing moisture for the silicone.

Once again, I hope this is more helpful than confusing or annoying. Obviously I love the subject..._man I gotta get another build going!_


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

It looks like most of this silicone-the-cork-mosaic-into-place process is going to have to be done while the armoire is standing up --- I can't within reason continue to ask my friend to come all the way over here to move it. Tomorrow has to be the last move, and that move has to be to a standing position.

My strategy for holding the cork pieces up while the black silicone dries is to use a length of steel wire as a platform. It will be poked into the foam at a diagonal direction that will make it so that the weight of the cork won't push it out from its lodging.

My #1 concern with this is that *the black GS foam layer covering the terrarium isn't level at all* due to the fact that this is an armoire, not a tank, and it has various contours. Trying to "plane" it with a knife or whatever would result in wood getting exposed, plus it would be a huge amount of work that might not even, well, work.

I imagine, though, that the way water travels down the LFS in the mosaic is that it doesn't really drip straight down, but is, for lack of a better immediate term, _sucked into_ the adjacent LFS. So a part of the LFS that is jutting out a little, will not drip water straight down, but sort of move it into the adjacent LFS that is lower down.

(It is also a concern of mine that LFS that is on the underside of the "jutting out" spot will just plain out _fall out_ if the friction holding it in the crevasses isn't strong enough.)

P.S.: I'm probably going to install my bulkhead, but I'll have to do it above the desired waterline and just let it spill through when it gets too high; I don't have any stopper with this bulkhead and besides, I don't want to risk a malfunction below that desired waterline and never be able to hold enough water to run the waterfall.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> My strategy for holding the cork pieces up while the black silicone dries is to use a length of steel wire as a platform.


That should work, with some tinkering perhaps. Tinker first, tinker much, silicone later, once you've found and worked out all the kinks. It's important to not have the cork sag or slide while the silicone is curing. Especially if you have multiple pieces curing at once. I have found balled-up pieces of newspaper also serve well as "spacers" to maintain separation. The uncured silicone prevents a cork piece from actually pulling off the wall, but sag is a bitch. So if you start siliconing at the bottom cork pieces, and really wire them up solidly, you can then work upwards, using "spacers", and not have to fight your way through a growing forest of wires. At least one of which you will surely knock out of place, and have the cork piece crash down through your work getting silicone who-knows-where. Besides the wires and the spacers, you can probably get some masking tape action going too. Remember, it doesn't stick to cork, but it sticks great to wood furniture.



> I imagine, though, that the way water travels down the LFS in the mosaic is that it doesn't really drip straight down, but is, for lack of a better immediate term, sucked into the adjacent LFS.


That's right; it depends somewhat on the application rate however. Also on how much you let the LFS dry out between wettings. 

If you let it really dry out, it's slower to start absorbing. Water just runs down the face at first, if applied to the surface (mist) and not from above (drip). After a little bit it starts absorbing though.
If you apply too much water too fast, the absorbed water does then go straight down.
If the LFS isn't too dry, and you don't apply too much water too fast, it will start to absorb right away, and also wick nicely in all directions.

I use both misting and drip hose to wet most of my cork mosaic walls and water the plants. I just run each twice a day (~10 AM & ~3 PM), about a minute for the drips (takes a bit for them to even start dripping) and more like 15-20 seconds for the misting. And I do a little hand-watering maybe 2x/week also. I find it best to use automation to provide most needed water, but not all of it. That way I don't overwater, and I also don't over-ignore. I just add a cycle to the timers for long out-of-town trips. For weekends away, I don't have to do anything. Just top off my reservoirs.



> (It is also a concern of mine that LFS that is on the underside of the "jutting out" spot will just plain out fall out if the friction holding it in the crevasses isn't strong enough.)


Not if you pack it like I described. No way, no how, huh uh.



> P.S.: I'm probably going to install my bulkhead, but I'll have to do it above the desired waterline and just let it spill through when it gets too high; I don't have any stopper with this bulkhead and besides, I don't want to risk a malfunction below that desired waterline and never be able to hold enough water to run the waterfall.


Bulkhead placement is a fine way to set your control elevation. You should be fine. Hey, remember this mantra - "_water features - what could go wrong_?" Ha ha. Seriously though - there's nothing like experience. Nothing.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

You should get a medal for "helping a new guy through the entire process of making a terrarium." Like a forum medal. But I guess a real medal is fine, too.

An update: _T9_ (which is a code name I give to my large-scale *T*erraria, in the order I've made them) _is standing again!_

A couple notes:

The bulkhead looks ... more difficult to place than I thought it would. Check out this photograph:



^This is a view of the left half of the bottom-back wall, but the problem is the same on the right half, too: the part of the back that seems to be _exactly_ the right vertical point to install the bulkhead --- not too low that it accidentally drains too much water but not too high that it doesn't drain water at all --- is two different level-surfaces. Bulkheads, as far as I can tell, need a completely flat surface, at least on the inside of the tank where water is being sucked in.

What do you advise in this regard? I'm not in a rush to solve this problem, because I have to do "watertight testing" right now anyway. Although I suppose I have to do it with the bulkhead, too.

Also of importance: now that T9 is standing, I got to test the lights!



^This is with three Jungle Dawn spotlights in the back (in order to light the back wall's mosses more effectively) and three Cree "100w replacement" floodlights in the front. I know that some Cree bulbs from Home Depot aren't exactly hobbyist-grade choices, and I couldn't find the PAR ratings anywhere for them, but I'll be damned if I was going to spend another ~$250 for those Jungle Dawns that will fizzle out in less than a decade.

[You can also see the rough contours I was referring to, which I guess aren't really that rough after all.]



^This is the Lux at the substrate base level, 12,500, although repositioning it can make it go as low as 9,600 or so. I don't know if that's enough to grow ordinary terrarium plants on the substrate level, but it should be good for the moss higher up, I guess?

Thanks again for the advice about the cork mosaic. While I'm waiting for the watertight test to pass (which should take some ~48 hours to be reasonably certain I guess?) I can test the steel wires and arrange cork bits and, if both work, I can start siliconin'.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

By the way, you may have noticed a patch of bare wooden wall by the dragon-skull driftwood piece, untouched by spray foam. This is intentional, but it may not have been a wise idea, now that I'm going the cork mosaic. My intention had been to have a bit of less-raised space to put moss in, because (and this may or may not be evident from pictures of it) the skull is very close to the wall and spray foam might choke it.

[This would be a good time to bring up the "planter" within one of the skull's "horns." It's a cupped area that can hold about a pint's worth of substrate without it spilling out, and even has a little hole for drainage. I intended to put some kind of terrestrial trailing plant in at some point, and I don't want to have too much spray foam for that reason: it would make planting that plant impossible.

*EDIT*: I do have a pic of it! Here goes:



The "planter" is that shadow-cast area towards the middle of the photo. To its left is a hole (the "eye") and a little further left (and a tad down) is the jaw. All backwards, of course.]

Also, although there is one selenite crystal that is super-prominent up top, and is probably close to impossible to hide attractively --- yet if the other ones look rather ugly and clash with the setting, I am not opposed to covering them with cork or whatever. Just thought I'd air that thought.

EDIT: To save e-trees, I may as well include this other stuff in this post:



^This is (some of) my hand-gathered Magnolia leaf litter, which were frozen for 48 hours and will not be removed from their bags until they need to be put in the terrarium(s).

My understanding of springtails is that they munch on dead leaves, which made me think it might be a good idea to water down my ABG mix with leaves in between so the subterranean springtails can feed on something, instead of just the leaf litter on top.



^This is an example of a 24-hour moss-cleaning process, although this is neither the normal pot used nor the usual amount of moss cleaned at one time. Even if the moss is going to be chopped up to bits, I still am fond of a good cleaning. (I'm basing this practice off of a YT video I saw a long time ago that suggested this.)


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Really starting to doubt the possibility of carving up cork in a way that allows as little as a 1" gap for LFS.

My main reason for saying this is that there is already so much crap on the walls that there are a ton of areas that just can't get cork bits in. Take the "ribs" for example. How will I fit cork in there such that LFS can be jammed inside? If I were dealing with a flat surface that had no decorations on it, no driftwood, no castle, no nothing, I could easily start with the cork mosaic.

It's looking like part of the walls will need some other strategy, or perhaps resorting to the "directly siliconing moss to foam" method.

*EDIT*: I did have an idea, which won't work as well as a cork mosaic under ideal conditions, but might function here.

The foam wall is already pocked with holes from the carving process, a large part of which involved just ripping bits of foam out and leaving what were, at the time, unfortunate holes.

Now, I think I can stuff LFS into them without it being pulled out easily. That won't cover the whole wall surface, but it will grow outward and leave few gaps. And anywhere I just _can't_ fit LFS in, I'll silicone cork bits together as support.

I haven't completely thought this through, just thought that I'd air the thought.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Not to quadruple post, but I think I may have found an answer here:

Do you see the green wire?



No? I can't either, even taking that close-up photo of wire-bound LFS hanging comfortably over the abyss.

It isn't stuffed into a crack; if I take out the wire, it will fall right now.

Now that I'm done with this test piece, I can start dicing up mosses and mixing them into LFS.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Hey, you've been busy! Isn't it fun!!! Ha ha, seriously, I just LOVE working on these things. All of it, even the stuff you'll never see again, like waterproofing wood.



> the part of the back that seems to be exactly the right vertical point to install the bulkhead --- not too low that it accidentally drains too much water but not too high that it doesn't drain water at all --- is two different level-surfaces. Bulkheads, as far as I can tell, need a completely flat surface, at least on the inside of the tank where water is being sucked in.
> 
> What do you advise in this regard?


Yeah I see the issue. You are correct - you need a flat plane for the bulkhead - definitely the wet side, but really, both sides. There are 2 options - add wood (or solid plastic I suppose) to the thin part, or remove wood from the thick part. Adding is simple if you have a table saw or even just a chop saw. Removing might be even easier, with a Forstner bit. Since you need to make a wider excavation than the ultimate full-penetration to pass the neck of the bulkhead through, you can't use a hole saw. You could use a spade bit, but...for good seating of the bulkhead I suggest something tidier. A Forstner bit would be my go-to tool for this job. The spade bit could make a mess of things for you.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Now, I think I can stuff LFS into them without it being pulled out easily. That won't cover the whole wall surface, but it will grow outward and leave few gaps. And anywhere I just can't fit LFS in, I'll silicone cork bits together as support.


Great. Honestly I think some gaps look better than full coverage anyway. And, if you really roll up the LFS in your fingers, roll it up tight, and quickly stuff it - like, it barely stuffs in there, it's so big and dense - into cracks and gaps, it will want to puff back up and it'll wedge itself in real good.

Silicone works very well to adhere cork to glass. Probably works fine to adhere cork to cork. I was thinking, if you let the LFS dry back out, you could also use Gorilla glue to adhere it to...anything.

Great progress you're making, well done. There's nothing like just hucking yourself at it. Thinking and planning are essential, but they don't change facts on the ground.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thanks, although I think I'm just going to drill through the thick part that lies in the "sweet spot" between eggrcate and waterfall pump. The threaded neck of the bulkhead is just long enough to go through the entire thing and still be fastented on the other side --- at least, it looks that way right now.

Another thing that would make this easier is if I understood waterfall pump mechanics better. Mainly, *does the the intake part of the waterfall pump have to be completely submerged in order for it not to malfunction?* I ask this because I'll have a lot more vertical space to work the bulkhead into, if the water level doesn't have to be quite as high for the waterfall to flow. Like a centimeter lower. I don't care if it slightly affects the speed / volume of the waterfall --- I just don't want the waterfall pump to screw up.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Well, sure, there are liquids pumps that can handle sucking some air, but that's _probably not what you paid for_. *RTFM in any case*, but...if it was my pump, I'd figure out a way to get the intake submerged. Even if it means rigging some kind of pipe or hose downward from the intake port (which is where? fully atop the body? upper lateral?).

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Well, I worry with manuals, which are super-conservative about risking things, they're likely going to say something like "Don't let water fall below the line EVER or the pump will explode and kill your family" when the de facto rule might be "meh, you can kind of get by with an inch of water below it once in a while."

BUT I think I have a solution, if my calculations are correct.

So, my bulkhead starts off like this:



But what if I take the filter off and do this?



My thought is, if I can combine a short length of hose (this one or some other) that has a similar O.D. to the bulkhead's I.D., then silicone it up real well, I can run the hose up to the _top_ of the water line, even though the bulkhead is installed well below it! I can just zip-tie or silicone it to the eggcrate, which it's going to need to be almost level with anyway.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah, sure - that would be a standpipe. (Did I not mention standpipes earlier? Huh, maybe not.)

I think I see your inlet side is female pipe-threaded (FPT). Just get a MPT PVC elbow, and (for the vert side) cut a length of PVC pipe however long it needs to be to establish your desired control elevation. 

If you don't want to use rigid pipe you could use vinyl hose on a barbed elbow - MPT on one side, then push-fit the hose onto the other side.

For this application, do I recall correctly that leaks through the bulkhead (as opposed to _around_ the bulhead) would not matter? This is a continuous-flow system, so as long as the through-leak is small, enough water will cover the pump so you're all good, right?

If memory fails and minor leaks would be bad, you can just teflon tape the threaded elbow or threaded barb fitting. 

But if it is a SLIP not a threaded bulkhead, and you're using a SLIP PVC fitting, then be sure to use proper ABS-to-PVC cement (it's kind of a minty green color). 
In this case I would go with rigid pipe, and cement, over a hose and (submerged) hose clamp. 
If you must do a hose clamp, get a stainless one.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

> Yeah, sure - that would be a standpipe. (Did I not mention standpipes earlier? Huh, maybe not.)


You did, I just thought that a standpipe referred only to a straight vertical tower from the floor of the basin, not a flexible bent tube from the wall.



> For this application, do I recall correctly that leaks through the bulkhead (as opposed to around the bulkhead) would not matter? This is a continuous-flow system, so as long as the through-leak is small, enough water will cover the pump so you're all good, right?


That's correct *if* I use a system in which the bulkhead is vertically above the waterfall pump, so that no matter how much it leaks, the water level could never fall below the bulkhead or its leaky spot.

But if I were to do this sort-of-a-standpipe method, it would be done with the bulkhead lower down, and that's basically the whole reason I'd do this method: because there are a lot more comfortable spots to drill a bulkhead-hole at or below the water pump's level than above it. Basically, the standpipery would be done in order to compensate for the bulkhead being at or below the water pump's level.

Thanks for the intel about the cement and the rigid pipe --- I would not have thought of it at all. I just ordered them.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

... aaaannnnd I didn't even end up using them.

I wish I had taken more photos, and that would make things comprehensible, but for my own records I'll write down what's happened in the last 24 hours or so:


I realized that the vertical distance between the topmost vent of the waterfall pump and the bottom of the eggcrate was borderline-nonexistent. There was no way a bulkhead tube could pull water between those two, which was exactly where it had to pull water from.


Fortunately, I had a good fix to this: I just got a full sheet of eggcrate and put it underneath the PVC pillars to raise the whole eggcrate-drainage-layer, and I cut out an area for the pump-chamber in this new sheet of eggcrate so that the waterfall pump _wasn't_ raised up with everything else. (This is where photographs would really help make sense of things.)


Sometime during this I finally succeeded in getting the entire water basin completely leak-free. But I hadn't put in the bulkhead yet.


A slight elevation in the wood on the sides of the armoire's floor meant that that "extra sheet of eggcrate" supporting the pillars was bent up on those sides, so that the bulkhead had even more room over there to get water above the pump but below the eggcrate that delineates substrate and false bottom. So I chose there.


The 1" hole saw didn't really work that well ... I ended up having to kind of fool around with a drill bit. The threaded part of the bulkhead just barely didn't fit through, so I used a piece of scrap wood and a mallet to hammer it through. This turned out to be not such a bad thing, as the hole was so long that the threaded ended only stucked out barely --- and the screw-on ring that tightens it doesn't have enough thread to stay on. It just falls off, no matter how much it's turned. It is fortunate that there is incredible friction holding it in place.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> The threaded part of the bulkhead just barely didn't fit through


Yeah, I always do a one and one eighths inch (9/8") hole for them, whether it's glass or wood. Sometimes you have to search for that size hole saw or whatever you use. 

- Alternatively, there's also a rasp bit you can put in a drill, that you can use to ream out a hole in wood. It makes for a slightly messier-finish job, but in a case like this, once you've bored a hole through and you no longer have any holding wood to get another hole-saw job started, it's your best bet. And besides, the slightly janky-looking wood is hidden by the bulkhead. These rasp bits cost like $5-10 at Home Depot or wherever, and come in a variety of diameters. You would use a 5/8" or 3/4" for that 1" hole. 



> as the hole was so long that the threaded ended only stucked out barely --- and the screw-on ring that tightens it doesn't have enough thread to stay on. It just falls off, no matter how much it's turned. It is fortunate that there is incredible friction holding it in place.


Hmm, I personally am more of a belt & suspenders kind of guy, than a believer in good fortune. As in, you wear the belt, AND you wear the suspenders. "Redundancy will _cover your ass_, cowboy!" Ha ha ha. Jesus, my wife and her love of awful puns is starting to rub off. Only took 20 years. Heh heh heh.

Also, consider this - _friction tight ain't likely water tight_. Do you think the grommet is well-enough seated, and will stay there? What if the freshly-daylighted wood dries and shrinks a little, releasing the bulkhead from its iron grip?

In all seriousness, right here is an example of where a Forstner bit is the best thing since indoor plumbing. To avoid having to do more waterproofing, I'd use it on the dry side of the armoire, to accommodate the nut so you can get it all the way onto the threads. I _strongly encourage_ the use of the threads the manufacturer has so kindly provided! If you need to, glue back in the plug you cut out with the hole saw, and then re-cut it (through the glue) with the hole saw, after you do the Forstner job.

But hey, it's your floor (or your landlord's), and maybe your neighbor's ceiling! Ha ha ha.

Good luck, man! You too may learn why the phrase "water feature" is a cussword with viv lovers.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

> Also, consider this - friction tight ain't likely water tight. Do you think the grommet is well-enough seated, and will stay there? What if the freshly-daylighted wood dries and shrinks a little, releasing the bulkhead from its iron grip?


Well, I didn't mention this in the last post out of fear of chastisement, but ... I did actually seal the various bulkhead parts and possible cracks. Just, well, not with ABS-to-PVC cement. More like "good ole black silicone and West System epoxy resin to top it off."

Trust me, though, I know the danger of thinking something is waterproof, hastily finishing the terrarium, then discovering a leak, and living through years of self-reproach. I will be testing this setup repeatedly.

In the meantime, I can get back to moss-staplin'.



> In all seriousness, right here is an example of where a Forstner bit is the best thing since indoor plumbing. To avoid having to do more waterproofing, I'd use it on the dry side of the armoire, to accommodate the nut so you can get it all the way onto the threads. I strongly encourage the use of the threads the manufacturer has so kindly provided! If you need to, glue back in the plug you cut out with the hole saw, and then re-cut it (through the glue) with the hole saw, after you do the Forstner job.


The problem with the threads is that the thickness of the wall is almost the same as the length of the threaded part --- only about half a centimeter shorter. It's not that the bulkhead didn't go all the way in (hell, it probably dented into the wood, as hard as I hit it). It's that I miscalculated how much exposed thread was going to be needed to tighten the nut onto it.

I'm afraid I don't see the value of a forstner bit unless I get one BIGGER than the diamater of the bulkhead-hole --- approximately the diameter of the nut, instead --- then use that bit to drill out wood from the armoire such that the nut has more thread to screw up into. (Or is that what you were suggesting? I may have misunderstood.)


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> The problem with the threads is that the thickness of the wall is almost the same as the length of the threaded part --- only about half a centimeter shorter. It's not that the bulkhead didn't go all the way in (hell, it probably dented into the wood, as hard as I hit it). It's that I miscalculated how much exposed thread was going to be needed to tighten the nut onto it.


Yeah, I get that. The purpose of the FB would be to reduce the thickness of the wall, so that there's room to screw the nut onto the threads.



> I'm afraid I don't see the value of a forstner bit unless I get one BIGGER than the diamater of the bulkhead-hole --- approximately the diameter of the nut, instead --- then use that bit to drill out wood from the armoire such that the nut has more thread to screw up into. (Or is that what you were suggesting? I may have misunderstood.)


Yeah, exactly. You'd need to size the FB so you can get the nut onto the threads, and also turn the nut. The FB would need to be about an inch wider than the diameter of the nut, for your fingers to squeeze in there and grip the nut. You could use an adjustable ("crescent") wrench, which could permit a smaller FB to be used, but _easy does it_ - no need to crank (and crack) it.



> Well, I didn't mention this in the last post out of fear of chastisement, but ... I did actually seal the various bulkhead parts and possible cracks. Just, well, not with ABS-to-PVC cement. More like "good ole black silicone and West System epoxy resin to top it off."


Aw hell, is that how I'm coming across? Sorry man. I will offer that, uh, silicone and epoxy ain't buddy-buddy. Not like there's a bad reaction or anything, they just don't adhere to each other. In fact, molds for casting with epoxy are made of silicone. Because, you know, it's easy to pull the mold off your cast once the resin cures. Anyway - I think I mentioned this before, and you probably already found that out yourself and took steps to not get screwed over by this factor - but I mention it for readers who may not have realized it yet.

Sounds like you're getting closer and closer. Good on ya!


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

> Anyway - I think I mentioned this before, and you probably already found that out yourself and took steps to not get screwed over by this factor - *but I mention it for readers who may not have realized it yet.*


Yeah, I have no problem with you clarifying or correcting things I do so that this post can safely be read by future hobbyists. Part of the reason I'm writing all of this out --- some of it very boring to current readers --- is so future readers will have a better idea of what works and doesn't work.

For me, although I knew already that cured silicone and cured epoxy don't like to stick (although I put the epoxy on before the silicone had entirely cured), mostly it was just insurance / peace of mind. I had a pretty good feeling that I had stuffed silicone all the way into the hole(s) as far as it would go, but I just wanted to get some other substance, less viscous, into the holes that might exist between the wall and the silicone itself. Filling the cracks of the thing that filled the cracks, so to speak.



> Yeah, exactly. You'd need to size the FB so you can get the nut onto the threads, and also turn the nut. The FB would need to be about an inch wider than the diameter of the nut, for your fingers to squeeze in there and grip the nut. You could use an adjustable ("crescent") wrench, which could permit a smaller FB to be used, but easy does it - no need to crank (and crack) it.


This may be a decision that bites me in the ass later, but because the bulkhead is already fixed in place and sealed, and because it's held water for about 24 hours so far, I may just ride with it.

My other concern is that, just getting the bulkhead OUT of the hole to use the forstner bit and try again, may be disastrous. It's so solidly in there that an attempt to hammer it back out may result in it breaking on the inside or tearing up the wood.

Also, because I'd have to hammer it out, and because the only thing I'd have as a surface area to hammer is the barely-exposed end of the threaded pipe --- I may hammer it once, get it slightly moved in the direction I want it to move, and then be forever unable to dislodge it, because there's hardly anything for the hammer to hit.

But the bigger reason is simply that, at this point, I'm superstitiously afraid of leakage, and I fear I may never get the bulkhead as watertight as I somehow managed to make it.

[P.S.: This armoire is _extremely brittle_, especially after sawing out the shelves. I didn't mention this earlier, but once when my father and I were lifting it, one of us lifted too quickly on one side and we heard a "CREAK." Then, the next time I tested water idly, it was leaking out of a _new crack_. So my fear is that, as hard as I'd have to strike a hammer to get it out, I might open another crack that doesn't become evident immediately. It may not actually happen, but it's a worry.]

*EDIT*: Would it be wise to include Turface or some other substance above the eggcrate / false bottom but below the ABG mix soil? I had read on it and thought it might have some usefulness in what I am doing, but I'm far from certain.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I'm posting an update because I think I figured out how to get the moss onto the wall:



^I found some bird netting at Lowe's and decided to see which adhesives would cooperate. Well, to cut a long story short, I went back to black aquarium-safe silicone.

What I did was bag a bunch of moss together, then bunch up the ends of the netting on the back, and silicone that part to the cut foam. The bunching of the netting on the back provides extra surface for the silicone to stick to. It sticks pretty well with some pressure held for a few seconds; probably some other caulk-tubed adhesive would work better. (Not Loctite PowerGrab, though, that's crap.)

The moss will, I hope, grow through the squares and obscure the netting, although from a distance the netting isn't really visible. Bird netting seems to have the perfect square size for moss holding: neither too small for it to grow out, nor too big for it to stay put.

Some other stuff:



^The false bottom layer installed.



^The substrate so far. (It IS probably unnecessarily deep, but because of the way I designed other things I needed to fill it up, or risk awkward bare spaces elsewhere. Anyway, it's possible I'll plant another tree there, which may appreciate the depth.)



^A view of the waterfall pump-retrieval chamber, mostly underground now. If the waterfall pump becomes too noisy, I'll design a door-flap to close the chamber.



^An overall view of the terrarium as it looks right now. Still some ways to go.


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## gonzalez (Mar 28, 2018)

This is pretty incredible and I’m excited to see how it will turn out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Thank you! Compliments like that are what keep hobbyists like me going. Really appreciated!

I made some developments on the process I'm using to get moss onto the wall:



^Toothpicks are no stranger to hobbyists of all kinds, vivarists or otherwise. I had started having problems with the larger bundles of moss falling off even if I pressed them into the silicone for half a minute. So I started sticking toothpicks through them, into the foam wall behind them, and the toothpicks stay put pretty well. That stabilizes the bundle long enough for the silicone to harden and cure.

I also discovered somewhat of a problem:



^It may not be too visible from a photograph, but ... my test plants are blanching! I had thrown these plants into the terrarium to test the lights --- they grow like kudzu, so they're easily replaced --- and they've gone pale green in about 24 hours.

Other people, either here or through email correspondence, had expressed concerns that it would even conceivably be possible to light such a tall terrarium. Well, I don't know for sure yet, but it looks like the light is actually a little too strong, even about 5ft above the ground. This is almost certainly from the Jungle Dawn mega bulbs and not from the Cree floodlights. At any rate, I'll wait and see what happens. Maybe this tradescantia-like plant is just ultra-sensitive to light.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Tossing a few ideas around in my head:

1) *Stained-glass windows in the castle.* Not real stained glass, of course, but using model-making tricks to make it seem like they are indeed stained glass. This would make the castle's castle-ness more noticeable, as right now it's somewhat hard to discern from the other features. It would be attractive, too, to see the light pass through them.

2) *An eye in the driftwood dragon's skull.* This one, I'm not so certain about, because the "eye socket" is too narrow for a marble naturally, and a round marble would be the most attractive choice for an eye. I'd have to drill, and drill carefully. Anyway, dead animals don't hold onto their eyes for long, so it would probably look unrealistic. The main reason I'm considering this is because the driftwood dragon is not easy to discern if you aren't sure where to look. Same problem that the castle has.

3) *A canopy made of plastic foliage.* I am skeptical about this idea, too, because I don't like to go half-and-half on my terrariums. It's usually either all live or all fake for me. But a canopy _would _look rather pretty, the plastic plants wouldn't be noticeably plastic from a modest distance, and the split light from overhead may be useful for some plants on the ground.

These are just my notes, but if a reader here does find something in them that will or will not work, feel free to let me know your thoughts on the matter.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

A reader of this thread might have noticed that there are no glass doors installed in this terrarium. It's true; I believed the danger of putting two large, heavy pieces of glass on the "lip" (the modified shelf that is holding in the substrate) would become a liability eventually. So when the wooden doors open, the whole terrarium is open.

This does have its own liabilities, like the fact that humidity lowers while the doors are open, and that I can never view the interior for long because of the humidity issue. But having glass would make it more difficult to work on the terrarium interior if I ever need to modify it after it's done, which is likely. So I believe that that's the right decision. At any rate, the interior of the doors is water-sealed, and looks to be doing well.

Here's an updated pic of the terrarium, with "test" branches of a Ficus (benjamina or ginseng) for shade in the top-left area:



^I know that the clumps of moss look rather nasty right now, and not at all natural. But you can see that, where the moss clumps join together, they look more natural.


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## SoloSK71 (Dec 25, 2018)

If you are worries about weight, then maybe plexiglass? You will need the humidity for most of the plants and any frogs you get.

Solo


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

SoloSK71 said:


> If you are worries about weight, then maybe plexiglass? You will need the humidity for most of the plants and any frogs you get.
> 
> Solo


I won't be keeping frogs in this. I don't plan on keeping any animal in it right now, but if I do, it won't be any kind of frog or amphibian.

I will say, the humidity higher up has been lacking. Two hours after misting, it falls to around ~75%.

But I worry that sliding glass (or plexiglass) doors --- which are the only doors I believe I could install --- would severely hinder my ability to modify the terrarium, besides marring its appearance.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi again,

Wow, you've been very busy, making big progress. Congrats!



> I will say, the humidity higher up has been lacking. Two hours after misting, it falls to around ~75%.


That does not seem like a problem to me. The real test will be once you've got some vascular plants in there, and live moss, and you see what can thrive - even spread into - where. Versus just hang on, or retreat to another region of the tank, or perhaps just give up and die. 

You're basically setting up a multi-species cage match. There will be winners and losers, overall and also microsite-by-microsite. If the ones you want to be winners aren't winning, you will need to either adjust the environment to favor them, or adjust your attitude about who's actually winning, where. Maybe you can't grow moss all the way up to the very top - but would you be happy with a nice belt of it, stopping a few inches short of the top? Just a made-up example. "No plan survives contact with the enemy, but a good general ensures his army does." Conjecture and speculation can't replace first-hand experience. Dive in, pay attention (even take some notes, and periodic photos), and adjust parameters - or inhabitants - as needed.

Personally I concur on the advice about a nice canopy of e.g. Neoregelias providing some light moderation for the lower plants. Blast those with light and you'll get fabulous color. Just water them enough.



> But I worry that sliding glass (or plexiglass) doors --- which are the only doors I believe I could install --- would severely hinder my ability to modify the terrarium, besides marring its appearance.


Have you considered cutting out "windows" in the wooden doors, and fitting glass, acrylic, or polycarbonate (since there will be no animals) into them? In this scenario you (well, I) would cut each hole with a jigsaw, then rout out the inside margin to accept the translucent sheet. Glazier's points and silicone would hold the sheet in place, and waterproof the wood.

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I already decided to buy sliding glass doors, actually. It's too likely that I'll want to view the interior for a while, and I don't want the humidity to plummet. It also won't be quite as expensive as I thought it would be, provided I go with glass and not a plastic product.

[By the way, any woodworkers / other measure-intensive hobby enthusiasts here who would happen to know the best way to ensure that two stick-on handles are attached in exactly the same place as each other on the glass door? I've made mistakes before, even when I planned ahead, and as such I had to live with asymmetrical handles on my terrariums.]

I've no problem with some of the plants not taking off. Yellow LFS is not unattractive, so if some of the moss wall never develops, it's fine. I'm used to plants (and terrariums) failing, so I've learned to appreciate what works and not fret over what doesn't work.



> Personally I concur on the advice about a nice canopy of e.g. Neoregelias providing some light moderation for the lower plants. Blast those with light and you'll get fabulous color. Just water them enough.


They will definitely get enough light, and I suspect enough water, given how well they seem to catch the mist.

I am not so sure they will provide a canopy, unless they grow massively bigger than I've ever seen them. (It's not unlikely I've been raising them poorly and they just haven't reached full size.) The dimensions of the ceiling are roughly 4' x 2', or 48" x 24". A 6" neoregelia won't even reach the lights near the side of the ceiling, if it is indeed only able to stick out about 6". (I'm 100% not certain about that, though.)

Speaking of light, I have an artistic development:



^Stained-glass windows! It was possible to make this by plexiglass with an alcohol-ink marker, but I didn't personally like how the products of that method turned out. So, I used aluminum modeling mesh, spray-painted it black, weighed it down in a pool of crystal lacquer, then used alcohol ink markers to make the design on the back of the solidified lacquer. 

I thought at first I'd cut it to size, removing the broken up parts on the left and right (or top and bottom), but right now I think I'm going to keep that to enhance the sense of ruination.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> A 6" neoregelia won't even reach the lights near the side of the ceiling, if it is indeed only able to stick out about 6".


Oh, but they pup, and then the pups pup, and then..._well_. You can't have just one Neo! Just give them some time, you will have substantial clumps. Many tillies are the same way, but can be even "worse". It's a great problem. Ha ha ha. You just have to build more vivs to house all those new babies. Or, enjoy the "natural shaggy look" of clumps. Bromeliads as singletons, for the most part, is a highly unnatural look. Get into their native range some time, and just start looking around. Mostly they occur in clumps you couldn't get your arms around.

Nice stained glass, I can appreciate the creativity and the problem-solving. And thank you - previously I could not have answered "what is crystal lacquer"?

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've only ever gotten one or two pups in the couple of years I've used Neoregelias. Or, more likely, I haven't had the right lighting / air flow / humidity for them.

I was curious to know something: I transplanted my Ficus Retusa into the terrarium yesterday evening, and although I didn't take any before-pictures to know for sure, I could _swear_ it shot up like 4" in some places within about 12-16 hours of being planted. Is that a thing? Do plants get optimistic when they're exposed to new light sources and new substrates, in a similar manner to how the stock market goes up when investors hear news about a new president / policy even before it has taken effect?

And just to save e-space, I'll include this not entirely relevant question:



^This is a Silver Pothos I idly planted in a planter in a different terrarium after whatever the previous specimen was died. I didn't examine it closely for a while, just watered it when I watered the terrarium.

I recently noticed that it has grown all these roots out, into the background, through the net, and one up in the air and back down again.

Is this a signal about something? I find the look very attractive, just what I'd want to make a natural-looking terrarium, and I'd love to reproduce the effect in the future, too.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> I've only ever gotten one or two pups in the couple of years I've used Neoregelias


Can't speak to why - don't know your setups - but this sounds _really pretty freaky_ to me. All mine pup pretty hard; you get the odd one that just sits there, but mostly they all throw a pup or two (at the same time, on different stolons) every 6 months or so. I don't think it's 'cause I'm making them unhappy...but who knows maybe I am. The other plants all seem happy though.



> I could swear it shot up like 4" in some places within about 12-16 hours of being planted. Is that a thing? Do plants get optimistic when they're exposed to new light sources and new substrates


Hmm. Don't know what to tell you. I don't think so - how confident are you about what you saw? I've got some of that "lucky bamboo" _Dracaena_ stuff in one of my wetter vivs, man it really jumps, but 4" in a half a day? Hmm. Double-check your data, I'd say.



> I recently noticed that it has grown all these roots out, into the background, through the net, and one up in the air and back down again...Is this a signal about something?


Oh yeah, it's a signal: 
WARNING! HAPPY POTHOS!!! *YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!!*

When the leaves get really big, *the end is nigh!*

Ha ha ha ha ha. OK seriously, yeah man, the plant is happy. With the packed LFS in your background, good lights, and adequate water, you will find many plants will do this sort of thing - adventitious rooting. They'll just throw roots to hook into whatever is handy nearby. Many many aroids do this, but also many watery-stemmed things do as well. And, many woody-stemmers also do it. Using toothpicks to keep a bit of stem pressed up against some moss is a good way to stimulate it where you want it to happen. One way to look this up online or in books is to ask "does this species air-layer?" Air layering kicks ass.

Many woody Ficus species air-layer readily. It's a good way to produce new rooted plants that you can cut off and transplant or give away. Or sell, I suppose. You could probably use this technique to initiate & baby (for faster growth) some aerial roots in especially scenic spots in your not-a-viv. Give it a whirl, what's it gonna cost you?

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Before I say anything else, I noticed a nasty development: My epoxy clay castle is *DISSOLVING*. (in some places.) 

I knew that the uncured clay dissolved in water, but I had assumed from something or other that I read that the cured stuff was totally waterproof, similarly to polymer clay.

I may be reacting too soon. It's possible that only the not-properly-cured parts of the clay castle are dissolving, due to improper epoxy / hardener ratios.



> Can't speak to why - don't know your setups - but this sounds really pretty freaky to me. All mine pup pretty hard; you get the odd one that just sits there, but mostly they all throw a pup or two (at the same time, on different stolons) every 6 months or so. I don't think it's 'cause I'm making them unhappy...but who knows maybe I am. The other plants all seem happy though.


Well, I just noticed a couple of pups sprouting behind my Fireballs. Took them long enough, though...

I'll take that back, there was one bromeliad --- not a neoregelia, I don't think, but one of those bromes that Lowe's or Home Depot sells --- that did what I now believe was pupping, although the original part of the plant died soon afterwards. The surviving part became huge, like 12" tall.



> Hmm. Don't know what to tell you. I don't think so - how confident are you about what you saw? I've got some of that "lucky bamboo" Dracaena stuff in one of my wetter vivs, man it really jumps, but 4" in a half a day? Hmm. Double-check your data, I'd say.


I assumed that that was the case. I was hopeful that maybe this was a phenomenon I'd never heard of, but I have to be realistic.



> Ha ha ha ha ha. OK seriously, yeah man, the plant is happy. With the packed LFS in your background, good lights, and adequate water, you will find many plants will do this sort of thing - adventitious rooting. They'll just throw roots to hook into whatever is handy nearby. Many many aroids do this, but also many watery-stemmed things do as well. And, many woody-stemmers also do it. Using toothpicks to keep a bit of stem pressed up against some moss is a good way to stimulate it where you want it to happen. One way to look this up online or in books is to ask "does this species air-layer?" Air layering kicks ass.


Well, this ficus definitely air-roots readily (and it has already started), so if that's an indicator ... that's an indicator. 

I'm not really sure all about the method of doing this, though. Do I just wait until an air-root is pretty long --- but hasn't reached anything yet --- then pull it to a nearby organic surface and toothpick it in? If it's that simple, then I'm really looking forward to it.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> there was one bromeliad --- not a neoregelia, I don't think, but one of those bromes that Lowe's or Home Depot sells --- that did what I now believe was pupping, although the original part of the plant died soon afterwards. The surviving part became huge, like 12" tall


Definitely smells like pupping.



> Well, this ficus definitely air-roots readily (and it has already started), so if that's an indicator ... that's an indicator.


Love the tautology. Ha ha. Anyway, glad to hear it.



> I'm not really sure all about the method of doing this, though. Do I just wait until an air-root is pretty long --- but hasn't reached anything yet --- then pull it to a nearby organic surface and toothpick it in? If it's that simple, then I'm really looking forward to it.



Short answer - yeah, it really is that simple.
Longer answer - traditionally, the purpose of air-layering (traditionally done with some moist moss, some plastic wrap, and some twist-ties, all to keep the RH at 100% along a short length of stem) is to create "clones" that you can separate to create new plants. That is to say, once you have what looks to be enough root material, you break out the sharp knife and slice the stem below your new rooting area. Typically, the stem-stump will throw two or three new stems, and you're off and running in your plant propagation. However, the in application I described (just made up) the purpose is not to create roots for the sake of cuttings, it's to create roots for the sake of roots. So...it's up to you to decide what is "pretty long", and ready to pin. If you just want to grow the dangling unpinned root longer and longer for a bit, I would probably try to keep it happy by tying a little bit of LFS to it. Probably I would just use LFS as my "twine", too.



> My epoxy clay castle is DISSOLVING. (in some places.)


Ah, pisser. Hopefully you're just over-reacting (I _may_ detect some such tendency, ha ha ha). I think you're probably right, that only the off-ratio areas are dissolving, due to their lack of curing.


Glass half full take? It'll add to that decrepit look you're after. 
Or, if you're thinking more along the lines of "_what son of a bitch drank some of my water?!?!?_", you could repair what's melting. I think you can slap newly-mixed stuff right onto the old stuff (definitely try scraping it down to sound material first).

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Yeah, all I'm seeing about Apoxie (the brand of epoxy clay I use) is that it's "waterproof." Obviously it _isn't _waterproof before it's cured, so it must be only waterproof when it's cured. Which means the parts dissolving are the parts that didn't properly cure.

And, yeah, I thought about the value of a decrepit appearance / ruination from dissolving clay, but almost every part of the clay has an aluminum or galvanized steel wire running through it, and armature wire doesn't particularly look real when it's exposed. Not for this kind of dark, bleak castle, anyway.

The info about creating extra roots and promoting root growth is appreciated. I'll get on it when I get back to my terrarium.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Posting an update, with some pictures.



^I tried out new lights that are supposed to be pretty strong, although they only have 4400K color temperature rather than the higher recommended values. Lux ratings are high, almost as high as the Jungle Dawn lights, but I don't have anything to measure PAR right now.

If anyone is interested, I can figure out which bulbs they were. They are about $39.99 IIRC and consume 40 watts.



^Moss growth! This is only one netting's worth of moss, but the phenomenon is happening all around the terrarium. It seems to be mostly the real-world moss I gathered, rather than the many Dusk Moss mixes I mixed in. I have seen the latter starting to grow, but it is definitely slower.



^Just sort of an aside, in order to better make a "story" to this terrarium, I added treasure chests full of polyclay gold coins, half visible through the cracks, off-balance and near to falling apart. There are holes drilled in the bottom of the wooden chests to let water through. They were also painted with polyurethane, although this was mostly in order to change their color, rather than to seal them.



^This has been installed for almost a week, but I never got around to taking a photograph of it until today. The tree you see is a _Ficus retusa_, and it is planted where it is in order to grow up through the many complex ruins of the castle. Leaning against it is a septarian egg, one that I thought looked greatly like a hatching dragon egg, and a moisture meter to the left, which tells me whether or not the tree is getting too much water. _Ficus retusa_ is easily overwatered, so I will keep a close eye on this meter.

Also of note is the new castle fragment, which is what you see on the left-ish side of the photograph. It gives the castle a more round, tower-like appearance, and it fleshes it out more.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Sliding glass doors have been installed, but apparently it's not possible to email photos of >5.00mb, so I'll wait till later.

Idly wondering, *what kind of animal could inhabit this terrarium?* 

Don't worry --- I don't intend to put anything in, although I don't think I've crossed any of the bridges-of-no-return for herps in this terrarium yet. But I get asked every time I bring up or show anybody this terrarium, "Well, what lives in it?" I'd like to change my response from "Well, nothing lives in there" to "Well, nothing lives in there, but I could get a [species] or two inside of it."

Again, no pressure --- I'm not going to run off and buy an animal just because it could [theoretically] live in there.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

^This is a more up-to-date photograph of what the terrarium looks like. Glass sliding doors have been installed. There are several not-quite-visible epiphytes and terrestrials hanging around.

I have enough moss to finish that top part that isn't yet covered, but the LFS I most recently bought --- from a local garden center --- is much darker than the LFS I used for the rest of the terrarium, and so I have decided to save it for another build.

The ribs of the dragon are almost invisible in the photograph, having been consumed by LFS bundles. This has been one of my bigger regrets regarding the terrarium, that I didn't get more pronounced ribs. It is, however, very difficult to find pieces of driftwood that are that rounded. I was lucky to even find mildly rounded driftwood branches like I did.

Note: The rather gaudy Ficus branches sticking out of the wall will probably not stay; they were mostly an experiment in seeing what could act as a canopy. Also, if you've noticed the Neoregelia lodged in the substrate, I can assure you that that is a temporary arrangement; it will find home in the upper walls once the upper walls have LFS in the right places to house it.

*EDIT*: Also, so far I have not risked filling the water basin with water to test the waterfall. I don't know what it will do to the water / humidity in the visible parts of the terrarium, and further, I am anxious about whether or not this ship is really watertight ... even though I tested it weeks ago.

When I do get around to testing the waterfall again, I will likely build a part of the castle wall that goes under the dragon and is hit by the falling water, thus making the flow of the waterfall more intricate.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

So, I "officially" finished the terrarium a few days ago. It will still have plants added, LFS cracks filled, and minor aesthetic modifications made for a while yet. But the goalpost has been reached.

Some pictures, reduced in size because I suspect my normal pics are an eyesore:



^Stelis Argentata in a castle piece.



^A Marcgravia and Microgramma sp "Ecuador", I believe.



^Neoregelia "Ruby Throat" et al.



^A bunch of Muehlenbeckia and a bit of Ficus Ginseng / Benjamina branch.



^Pilea sp. Purple Ecuador? from Pubfiction.



^A couple of Ficus.



^Two experimental trees, from hydrophyte.



\

^Ardisia japonica and Pellonia repens, also from hydrophyte & Pubfiction.





^Stained-glass windows



^Upper part of the castle.



^Neoregelias "Blueberry Tart" & "Edge of Night"



^A variety of moss growth from local moss and Dusk mix, and...



^The terrarium as a whole.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Looks great! Please post growth shots add it grows in


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

*~1 month later*​
Things have grown in, including some weeds I will probably cut (which I've kept alive to this point to illustrate the growth of this terrarium). I've started calling it the "Immortal Vale" because nothing in it seems to die, although I haven't exactly been aggressive in testing that rule.


^Overall view. The glass is a bit foggy, but I didn't feel like waiting around to take a better photo. I got new quarter-inch glass doors yesterday and haven't put the handles on yet.


^A couple of Ficus, plus weeds. One ficus should be _Ficus thunbergii_, and the other I believe is _Ficus pumila 'Quercifolia'_.


^_Drymonia cuyabonensis_ and a wandering jew species having a race. They've kept together pretty well the last couple of weeks.


^_Marcgravia sintenisii_.


^_Neoregelia 'Ruby Throat'_ pupping at last. To my surprise, it is the neoregelias that have shown slow growth, even with very high light.


^_Microgramma 'Ecuador #2'_ and _Stelis argentata_. The latter was deliberately planted in a "castle piece" in order to look almost like a potted plant.


^_Ficus burtt-davyii_ and _Ficus benjamina (?)_ growing in. It's hard to see, but they've sent out dozens and dozens of roots through the wall of LFS.


^A couple of plants. One is another planting of _Drymonia cuyabonensis_ and the other may be _Begonia Scutifolia_.


^A _Costus _and a _Monocostus_, I believe.


^_Ardisia japonica_ in front of the castle wall and _Pellionia repens_ growing on it. To the left a bit of _Tectaria zeilanica_ is visible.


^A Chinese fir, I believe (somewhat of an experiment), and a Philodendron called 'Wings'.


^A neat, furry Microgramma I received as _Micro. sp. #2_.


^If memory serves, this extraordinarily long cutting was _Microgramma lycopodioides_. Spelling may be wrong.


^A peperomia (I believe), and _Encyclia polybulbon_.


^More ficus branches and _Neoregelia 'Deep of Night'_ with a barely visible pup.


^Just another photo of _Ficus benjamina_ branches, trying to form a canopy that may or may not actually happen.


^_Nepenthes aristolochioides x burkei_, officially installed in order to cull the fruit fly infestation, but mostly because carnivorous plants are AWESOME.


^A sundew, Drosera spatulata, for the same fly-catching purpose.


^_Ficus retusa_ growing through the castle walls, with a hoarded dragon's egg.


^Stained-glass windows, already somewhat deteriorated by misting.


^Two gold- and weapon-filled chests, already starting to rot from the water.


^The skeletal arm / claw is still going strong, although it takes a little maintenance. A _Pilea 'Purple Ecuador'_ is growing between its fingers, as are many weeds.


^The skull, now with an eerie, supernatural-lookin eye. Part of the hole that had been the empty eye socket rotted away, allowing enough space to wedge this in. It keeps watch over the Immortal Vale, even in death.


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Thanks for the update and labeling the plants, makes it easier for me to see what different species look like


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## highvoltagerob (Apr 14, 2012)

I love the look you’ve got going on! I know you said much earlier your not having animals, but then you seem to have left the door slightly open to the idea. So....

As far as species suggestions, and going only by the landscaping, without knowing all the parameters of the enclosure, I can picture a long tailed grass lizard climbing those ruins! I had a small group in a large (3’x2’x4’) terrarium and they were very entertaining and interactive. Their group dynamic was quite interesting. They also loved to drink from bromeliad cups. They would however need a heat lamp to bask under.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

That's interesting, because I had kept such a lizard in the past, although in too small an enclosure. I have always enjoyed the rainbow whiptail.

There is enough heat coming from the Jungle Dawn lights that such an animal could get by with (ambient temperature too is like 80 F), although I'd have to build some kind of perch, and there would be no place to hide up there (I don't know the hiding needs of lizards).

The most important impediment is that I have already (lightly) sprayed the interior of the enclosure with a permethrin-based fly spray, and I also sprayed it down once with a diluted liquid fertilizer. The spray doesn't seem to be killing off newborn flies, certainly, but I don't know what that means for a lizard, especially one that would have to be living there for years.

Also, I'd have to feed it.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

I take back what I said about the basking spot; there is a spot that reaches an appropriate temperature for basking, which also affords an excellent hiding place (the inside of the dragon's horns). 

There are, however, two other issues I didn't mention:

1) Because of the lumpy nature of the moss-netting process that built the whole background, the glass doors don't close flush with the walls. A small lizard would eventually find them and exit the enclosure. I could cut away some of the moss, but it would look messy. I'd only do it if I were certain I could otherwise maintain an animal.

2) Any kind of animal that eats vegetation even very infrequently, would be a big no. Some of the plants I have in there are expensive, and if I'm gone for a couple of days, those plants might be gone, too.


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## highvoltagerob (Apr 14, 2012)

You wouldn’t have to worry about them eating your plants, the most they would do is lick water droplets off the leaves or drink from the bromeliad cups. 

They would find places to get out of sight if they choose, especially as the plants grow in. Mine all slept together in a small hollow in a piece of drift wood that was part of my background.

I don’t have any experience with the fly spray that you mentioned so I can’t comment on that, the fertilizer could be a problem if it was a chemical fertilizer, but if it was just a diluted organic fertilizer such as kelp/ fish emulsion than I wouldn’t be concerned about it.

The big concern would definitely be the gaps around the doors, as they are only about as thick as a pencil. 

I don’t want to push you towards stocking your tank if that’s not what you are looking to do, the longtails are just the first thing I thought of when I saw your last full tank shot. It looks great!


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## GTYLER04 (Jul 11, 2019)

Looks good where did you get all the plants


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

GTYLER04 said:


> Looks good where did you get all the plants


Most of them come from Glass Box Tropicals, and a good bit of the remainder are from vendors on Dendroboard. The Ficus benjamina and Ficus retusa are from Walmart or something and Bonsai Boy.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

*~2 months later*​
I probably won't be updating every month from now on, unless there is significant growth / change.

Important notes:

- *The Ficus stems are taking over.* There are roots growing more than 24" away from the nearest stem. Practically every moss clump has roots somewhere in it. Shit, why did I do this, again? Something about creating a canopy? _Sigh_

- *The fruit fly numbers have been culled a little.* There are still plenty of them lurking in the moss walls, but the number flying around is significantly lower. I owe this to the carnivorous plants, mostly.

- *Moss everywhere.* Moss has grown on pretty much every spot of yellow. There is only one place that moisture doesn't penetrate enough to grow moss.


^Overall view


^Newcomer _Selaginella willdenowii_, introduced here because it doesn't seem to be taking off anywhere else.


^_Geogenanthus ciliatus_ was going to be too big for its container, so I moved it here. (That was a while ago, so it may have been in a previous update.)


^A couple of not-especially-well-positioned _Ficus benjamina_ branches that were intended to grow differently than they have. Also, _Neoregelia 'Deep of Night'_ again.


^A _Ficus benjamina_ branch twisting around.


^...and another.


^Example of the spread of roots, over a foot away.


^Here the roots are covering the "bones" rather attractively. In some spots the roots take over to good effect, but it's hard to control.


^The _Ficus retusa_ tree was removed from the substrate a couple of weeks ago or so, and the substrate was replaced with turface. I saw too many of the tree's leaves yellowing and falling off, and I attributed that to poor drainage around the roots. I don't know if it's done any better; it's hard to tell yet.


^The Costus and _Monocostus uniflorus_ that I am increasingly suspecting are the same plant.


^_Nepenthes aristolochioides x burkei_ hard at work.


^_Microgramma 'Ecuador #1'_ is a real winner in this terrarium. It has grown more than I believed it would in the best of conditions.

Does anyone know enough about glass to know if it's possible to replace this ordinary glass with some kind of glass a little less reflective? I do not know enough about the science / industry of glass to even tell if the products I am browsing are what I'm looking for.


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

*~8 months later*​
A lot of time has passed, but there isn't a very striking visual change. The moss had grown so thick that I could simply pulled it off the LFS bundles like it was cotton. The fruit flies disappeared (as other users here told me they would) and I transplanted my _Nepenthes _elsewhere. Some of the _Ficus _roots have grown so thick that it would be difficult to cut them even with a plant clipper.

Also, it started leaking a couple months ago. It only happens once in a while, and I don't know where it is coming from or at what level of water in the drainage layer it begins to leak at, but I keep water siphoned out of the false bottom to prevent leaking. As such, the waterfall can no longer be used.









^
Main photograph of the whole interior.









^
The canopy. I've had to clip the _Ficus _branches often to keep them from blocking the light, but it is starting to look like an actual canopy, which is good.









^
A cluster of Costus.









^
A growing _Geogenanthus ciliatus_ and the "tree" of _Begonia foliosa_.









^
Multi-pupping _Neoregelia "Ruby Throat"_, plus some plants that they are concealing.









^
The "beanstalk" of _Peperomia scandens_ growing up the castle, and to the left, a cluster of _Pilea "Purple Ecuador"_ growing on the skeletal hand.









^
The dragon egg geode nestled by the _Ficus microcarpa_, which has not grown that much, but it isn't any big thing.









^
The dragon skull with its marble eye still intact.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Looks good, and looks like a handful to keep under control. 

Do you have anything interesting to say about _Costus_? I have it in a few vivs, and I'd like to appreciate it more. It flowers, yes?


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Do you have anything interesting to say about _Costus_? I have it in a few vivs, and I'd like to appreciate it more. It flowers, yes?


Well, I'm not sure exactly which plant it is. I had a plant named _Costus _from a vendor here, and a plant named _Monocostus uniflorus_ with a (?) attached to it, from Glass Box Tropicals. I planted them next to each other and they are indistinguishable.

It may well flower, but even as big and extensive as it has gotten at its best, I do not recall ever seeing a flower.

My most notable remarks about _Costus _are things that you probably already know: it gets big, it has a beautiful gradient of green shades, and it seems to be very hardy. I have a couple of cuttings outside in Ziploc bags with LFS from a month or two ago, and they are still alive, apparently.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> Looks good, and looks like a handful to keep under control.


+1, absolutely

Looks like you've achieved most of what you were after, and learned a ton in the process. What to do again, what not to do again, etc. Congrats!!!


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

jgragg said:


> > Looks good, and looks like a handful to keep under control.
> 
> 
> +1, absolutely
> ...


Thanks to you!

Yeah, I definitely learned a lot. I can't count the number of things I learned across the thread.

The only major problem has been the leak; I suspect one of the gigantic ficus roots got into one of the armoire cracks and split the epoxy resin that had waterproofed it.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

Roots are amazing. They destroy cities; one must respect roots. It would be interesting to tear into the substrate and see if that was the problem - you could be right. If you were, what would you do next time? No ficus, no wood hull, what?


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

jgragg said:


> Roots are amazing. They destroy cities; one must respect roots. It would be interesting to tear into the substrate and see if that was the problem - you could be right. If you were, what would you do next time? No ficus, no wood hull, what?


I don't think I'm likely to use either _Ficus benjamina_ (which is a prolific grower and is the culprit in the root problem if the problem is, indeed, roots) or wood tanks again, to put it shortly.

If I use wood tanks, it will be furniture or self-built boxes with extremely few cracks and not made of old, easy-splitting wood.

If I use _Ficus benjamina_ again (which I have, in a smaller setting), it will only be in glass tanks. But I am not likely to use it anymore. The leaves are too big for the growing tree to really resemble a miniature tree inside of a small viv / box.

To answer your question more directly, then, I won't be quick to use either ficus or wooden frames whether or not the problem was indeed roots. The truth is, whether or not roots were the problem, the armoire _did _cease to become watertight. One way or the other, a piece of furniture with that many lines and crevasses at its base, is not a great candidate for a viv.

It's funny when I remember that you suggested pond liner if I couldn't get the leaking issue resolved, way back when. If I had heeded that advice, I would probably not have the leak at this point --- besides the fact that I would have saved a load of money!


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

> It's funny when I remember that you suggested pond liner if I couldn't get the leaking issue resolved, way back when. If I had heeded that advice, I would probably not have the leak at this point --- besides the fact that I would have saved a load of money!


It's a tad funny to me that you remember that, and I don't. Ah, memory - _the faculty that forgets_. Ha ha.

Meh, don't feel too bad for being a perfectly normal human. People generally seem to have a Really Hard Time learning any way but the hard way. My understanding is that for nearly our entire history, we lived in small groups. And of course there was no mass communication. So maybe we are hard-wired with an inability to truly learn much verbally. To remember, sure - to "learn" in our heads, but not learn in our guts, in a way that really makes us behave differently. Anyway - sometimes I grope for explanations of why again and again, we see people - ourselves, even - do dumb shit that someone else (even a trusted, beloved family member) told us was a bad idea. Hey, I'm as guilty as anyone.

I think woody _Ficus_ could be successfully kept in terraria if one used a bonsai approach (confined roots, pruned tops). There are some small-leaved woody _Ficus_. I'm toying with the idea of installing one of them in a near-future build.

You got any time, space, money, or energy for a new build any time soon? Or a massive tear-down and remodel?

cheers


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## Kinstrome (Oct 6, 2017)

jgragg said:


> I think woody _Ficus_ could be successfully kept in terraria if one used a bonsai approach (confined roots, pruned tops). There are some small-leaved woody _Ficus_. I'm toying with the idea of installing one of them in a near-future build.


Yes, I think this is wise. I did not confine or trim the roots of my Ficus benjamina limbs on the moss walls or my Ficus microcarpa; the latter I wanted to grow wild, and take over the castle ruins that were spaces for it to take over. A truly bonsai'd ficus tree would look very attractive, although it may take years for it to achieve a really beautiful shape.



jgragg said:


> You got any time, space, money, or energy for a new build any time soon? Or a massive tear-down and remodel?


I did finish another terrarium recently, although I haven't posted the latest photographs of it yet.

It was another learn-the-hard-way learning experience, seeing valuable plants melt overnight next to a polymer clay castle and learning that polymer clay is, well, more than just weird-smelling. (The new castle is made of epoxy clay and has not harmed any plants so far.)


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