# Multi species vivarium



## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

I am thinking about doing a multi species vivarium or paladarium and was wondering if anyone has had any luck with multi species enclosures if so what animals and any tips?


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## cmk (Aug 29, 2014)

Not being mean, but use the search bar on the top right and look at previous threads.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

cmk said:


> Not being mean, but use the search bar on the top right and look at previous threads.




There are people that have done it before that haven't posted and new users that have done its that's why I posted it....


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Carolina Vivariums said:


> There are people that have done it before that haven't posted and new users that have done its that's why I posted it....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


But you have read through the many threads already on the forum about that topic, correct?


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

Dane said:


> But you have read through the many threads already on the forum about that topic, correct?




Yes I read through a good many of them and found some stuff but was still curious on some more! 


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

in my large viv I have found that a mix of dart frogs seems to cohabitate without any real problems. I also have a mix of small arboreal lizards that seem to ignore the frogs. it is important to keep the food requirements of the different animals in mind when you are putting them together. I also have a viv with mantellas, tree frogs, and gold dust day geckos that seem to do well together.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Conventional wisdom states that 'If you have to ask, you're not experienced enough to do it." I tend to believe that is mostly correct. Too many factors come into play if you're working with species you're unfamiliar with to make it a worthwhile endeavor.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

TarantulaGuy said:


> Conventional wisdom states that 'If you have to ask, you're not experienced enough to do it." I tend to believe that is mostly correct. Too many factors come into play if you're working with species you're unfamiliar with to make it a worthwhile endeavor.



Well I don't think that's true then no one would expand there knowledge I've built tons of vivariums and have many different species of reptiles and amphibians I'm just curious what other people have done to learn from their successes and mistakes! That's what the forum is for! Gaining knowledge from other people. I have taken care of many different species just never in the same enclosure. 



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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

You're entitled to think whatever you like. That being said, there are probably at this point, literal dozens of threads on this topic. You should know well in advance the species you are going to consider mixing without having to ask anyone. You should have worked with both; and know the habits and ecology of both well enough before you ever put them together that you can form a reasonable expectation of their needs and how they will interact and utilize their respective niches in the environment. Like I said mate, if you have to ask, you're not ready.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

TarantulaGuy said:


> You're entitled to think whatever you like. That being said, there are probably at this point, literal dozens of threads on this topic. You should know well in advance the species you are going to consider mixing without having to ask anyone. You should have worked with both; and know the habits and ecology of both well enough before you ever put them together that you can form a reasonable expectation of their needs and how they will interact and utilize their respective niches in the environment. Like I said mate, if you have to ask, you're not ready.



I read all the ones posted all I was trying to do was learn as much as I can rather than jump into and make tons of mistakes all I want is what best for the animals no need to jump down my throat


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

I keep isopods, springtails and frogs together. That mix seems to work well...


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I hate how hostile people get here. They want people in the hobby, but they wanna have a crap attitude if you do anything new or different. They scare away people all the time. In actuality, they scare them off and the people still end up making a viv, except without telling the forum about it. 

Basically, "mixed viv" is a sure way to get dendroboard to pretty much hate you. (It's frowned upon here)


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

Basically, if you want a mixed viv, you'll have a bad experience here on the forum. UNLESS you can create one that holds up over time with no casualties.


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## Lisaxaphona (Nov 2, 2016)

Lokirathehunter said:


> Basically, if you want a mixed viv, you'll have a bad experience here on the forum. UNLESS you can create one that holds up over time with no casualties.



Ive noticed a bit of hostility too. But there are still a few really nice, knowledgeable contributors here. It's a little daunting going through so many pages of topics, and sometimes results will show up for a 50 page thread where the keywords are only mentioned once and there is no additional information. I think its always best to ask about others expierence, conversation and personal questions are the best way to learn. The original poster may not be knowledgeable enough to mix species yet, but research and discussion is a good way to get ready. I can vouch for this personally, just last month I could have made a bad mistake when creating my viv, but luckily a very nice (and patient) user on this forum exchanged multiple emails with me and responded to all my dumb questions, but in the end I learned so much and was very grateful for their help.

Carolina Vivariums, I hope you are able to find someone to help!


I do not want to change the subject, but Lokirathehunter do you know of any other fourms that have nice threads for diy vivarium construction? I keep reptiles, mainly pythons, so it would be cool to find a forum like dendroboard that is geared more towards snakes and viv construction. My searches on google ousually only result in forums that are dead or have like one user that had created a custom tank.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I've looked, but like you said, most forums are dead. Dendroboard is really the only one I've found that's worth it. I used to be a member on vivarium forum but they died out too. There is quite a bit to see there though.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Lokirathehunter said:


> I hate how hostile people get here. They want people in the hobby, but they wanna have a crap attitude if you do anything new or different. They scare away people all the time. In actuality, they scare them off and the people still end up making a viv, except without telling the forum about it.
> 
> Basically, "mixed viv" is a sure way to get dendroboard to pretty much hate you. (It's frowned upon here)


I guess I see things a little bit differently, Lokira. There is no doubt that there are a couple of topics around here about which most veterans are galvanized in their opinions. The two that come to mind are mixed species and, to a lesser extent, water features. The latter is more subjective and most folks will just step out of the way and let the lesson teach itself (at least the lesson taught itself to me and seemingly with lots of other folks). The former, though, can lead to diminished health or death of frogs. This is not something that people are as willing to just let slide. 

The pattern that I have seen is that some folks come in here and ask these questions, are told that it's not a good idea by people with quite a bit of experience, and are not happy with the response they get. That's when things go sideways, it seems. If you want to do something that people with many more years of experience than you have told you is not a good idea, that's up to you, but don't expect a medal for it. 

If you are new to the hobby, there is just no getting around the fact that the simplest way and the way most likely to succeed is to start out with a single species in a tank. That's my recommendation, and most folks on this board that have been doing this for a while will probably agree. Maybe you will want to try mixing species down the line when you get some more experience. Maybe just wait a bit, though, and learn the ropes while the stakes aren't so high. Getting the lighting and plants and flies etc. correct is tough enough without having to pay attention to interspecies behavior, especially when you are probably not capable of picking up on the subtle behavioral queues that might indicate stress.

Every keeper has to make these decisions for themselves. You are going to do whatever you want. However, I think it's too much to expect people to go against their own experience and pat you on the back for doing something that they think is not going to work out for the frogs. I think there's a difference between hostility and people trying to look out for the welfare of frogs in captivity. You may have your opinion, but maybe the next person that reads these threads may make a different decision based on what is said here. That's why people may seem a bit pushier in this type of thread than in other kinds of threads.

Anyway, that's my $0.02. My hope is that no one gets run off of Dendroboard that we all exist peacefully, but there are just some topics that will illicit a stronger response and this happens to be one of them.

Happy froggin',

Mark


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## Stryker (Nov 7, 2016)

First off let me say that I am new to frog keeping and I have done a ton of research from everything from vivs to the frogs themselves. I have watched countless videos and observed what the experts are and are not doing. The one thing across the board that they are not doing is mixing species. I watched one video with a 245gallon viv and it was dedicated to one species.

I from my research have accounted this to two reasons: perhaps I am wrong but its what I have gathered. 

First is that multi-species tanks will encounter each other at some time. Some of the species can be very aggressive and will not only bully but pursue the bullied species stressing it out till it dies. 

The second reason is ethics, mixing them can run into cross breeding and this will ruin and potentially introduce "mules" into the hobby. This would be devastating not only to the purity of the species but to the hobby if they were sold off because they resembled one of the parents.

As hobbyist it is our responsibility to maintain purity and safety of the animals we keep. If a guy with a 245 gallon viv couldn't keep mixed species tank I don't see how anything smaller would work.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Lokirathehunter said:


> I hate how hostile people get here. They want people in the hobby, but they wanna have a crap attitude if you do anything new or different.(It's frowned upon here)


That's a bit of over-generalization bordering on over-exaggeration, don't you think? If a lot of experienced hobbyists have a strong opinion on a matter and can back it up with sound reasoning then that's a crap attitude and a fear of anything new or different? 

At least the OP asked the question they wanted the answer to. He asked if anyone who had success with a multi-species vivarium could share tips. Kudos for that. The reason people get frustrated and point him to the search function when this topic comes up is because usually... 

1) The OP hasn't really read any of the scores of heated threads on this topic. They've just skimmed them which becomes apparent in the ensuing debate.

2) They've asked a question they don't want an answer to (What do you guys think of mixed vivs?) instead of the question they wan't the answer to (Who has successful mixed vivs and what can you tell me?) and...

3) They aren't really interested in real answers, they just missed out on previous debates and they wan't their turn.

Some questions to get a good handle on before entering the topic are what constitutes a success when keeping mixed species ( acceptable vs. desirable fatalities, bullying, stress, breeding, thriving, predation)? What are my priorities when building such a tank (appearance, longevity, individual animal well being)? Why do I want to keep a mixed species tank?

*edit - I'm not accusing the OP of any of these things in this instance, but if you look at the old threads you'll see they are true more often than not.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Boondoggle said:


> That's a bit of over-generalization bordering on over-exaggeration, don't you think? If a lot of experienced hobbyists have a strong opinion on a matter and can back it up with sound reasoning then that's a crap attitude and a fear of anything new or different?
> 
> At least the OP asked the question they wanted the answer to. He asked if anyone who had success with a multi-species vivarium could share tips. Kudos for that. The reason people get frustrated and point him to the search function when this topic comes up is because usually...
> 
> ...


In many cases the OP (not necessarily this OP) looks for affirmation that what they are about to do is ok. When they don't get that, their attitude changes to "Well I have all kinds of experience with other animals that are NOT dart frogs. So even though scores of more experienced dart frog keepers haven't been able to pull this off, I can because I'm special" 
Then they just get mad when they don't get the answer they want to hear. 

Many of these issues would never ever ever be an issue with a heaping amount of Search function use. Newbies, please remember, these "ideas" have been posted by newbs for years. There are several dozen threads about your topic already on this thread. USE the SEARCH function. You can see how these topics have evolved through the years.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

Thanks for all the feed back I can see this is a touch subject and although I did use the search function I can see how t might have been frustrating. Just trying to figure out what's safe for my pets thanks for the help! 


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

Here's an honest tip:

IF you're going to do it (I recommend against it), make sure your vivarium is HUGE. I would say the SHORTEST footprint length should be 3 feet.


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## Dr.Hoatzin (Jul 28, 2014)

I think a lot of what is seen as hostility is frustration--many experienced hobbyists have fielded this question every day of the week and twice on Sundays for a very long time and the answer should be obvious to anyone who has searched. Could it be phrased a little more gently and less brusquely? Sure. Could the response be less defensive and more willing to accept the advice for which they asked? Sure again. In the end, the meat of the subject will be the same but we can be a bit kinder, on all sides.

That said, if you feel passionately enough about frogs to invest the time and money in keeping them, do it well and for their longterm health and propogation. And in most cases that will mean single species setups.


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## Carolina Vivariums (Oct 27, 2016)

npaull said:


> Here's an honest tip:
> 
> 
> 
> IF you're going to do it (I recommend against it), make sure your vivarium is HUGE. I would say the SHORTEST footprint length should be 3 feet.




Yea I have a 75gal which is 4ft long but I think I'm going to just do fish and frogs but not darts (as much as I would like too) because I don't want the water section to pose any problems for them! 


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## greenthumbs (Nov 6, 2015)

As said multiple times in this thread, the search function is your friend.

I've only ever had experience with one mixed viv, which is a 5 ft long display tank I set up for an elementary school. It contains 3 bassleri and 7 imitators. The bassleri stay on the ground, and the imitators climb on the background and plants and forage in the leaf litter. I closely monitored the tank for a few months and saw no signs of aggression, and the teachers currently maintaining the tank report that all the frogs are active and healthy. The tank is set up as a demonstration of different species in the same family and same geographic region occupying different ecological niches, and were this not an educational display, I would not be keeping different species in the same tank.

Some dart frogs (Ameerega and Epipedobates species, and some others) would do well with a shallow water feature, as long as it doesn't take up too much of the ground space, and do occupy similar habitats in the wild as some popular aquarium fish (shallow, clear Amazonian streams in Ameerega trivittata's habitat are, if I'm not mistaken, shared with cardinal tetras).

In my opinion, based on my own experience and the experiences that other hobbyists have shared on this forum, a mixed-species vivarium could work IF the frogs occupy very different ecological niches AND the tank is large enough and set up so that the different habitats of the different species are present in the tank. The frogs would also should not be closely related because of the risk of hybridization.

If you end up keeping a multi-species exhibit, make sure your tank is very large and provides different types of habitat for the different species. Please do keep us posted on your progress, new knowledge is always welcome in this hobby.

If we seem hostile to unorthodox ideas, it's only because our collective experience makes us inclined to oppose certain practices, and we want to make sure frogs in captivity have the best possible living conditions and that new hobbyists have the best possible experience keeping frogs. Best wishes, and welcome to the hobby.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A large problem is the term multi-species as it doesn't help to define the actual question as there isn't any indication of what the person(s) consider multi-species. Are they referring to different dendrobatids? one species of dendrobatid and something else, a combination of the two ideas? This changes the whole dynamics of the enclosure. 

There have been several reasons given above regarding the impact of keeping different dendrobatid species together and with non-dendrobatid taxa (and dendrobatid taxa) there are some other questions that have to be answered before populating the enclosure. 
First and foremost, it is suggested to stick with zoogeographic correct animals as these will have the best probability to have the same parasite and pathogen exposures which reduces the risk of novel pathogen developing due to different carriers (an example of this is the translocation of strains of tiger salamander virus via the movement of infected larvae intended for use as fish bait having some resistance to the virus from that specific population but the animals in new local do not resulting in massive mortalities of not only salamanders but other amphibians and in some locals, fish, and reptiles as well). 
Second you really need to consider the niches required by the different species and be able to supply the disparate needs of both species. This often means that the future inhabitants have to be chosen before construction so that the different needs are met. Too often people add the additional species after set-up sometimes as an after thought which does not help long-term success. 

Third, you need to be sure that there aren't negative cues inherent in the presence of the other species for example some amphibians are able to detect the presence of potential predators of the tadpoles which may cause deviations from expected normal behaviors. The goal is to maximize the normal behaviors of the animals involved and minimize aberrations. If your getting aberrant behaviors it is a good indication that something isn't right with the system. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Lisaxaphona (Nov 2, 2016)

To the original poster a good way to make it look like a mixed species viv without actually mixing the species is to put tanks together in a riw, where the sides are connecting. You can even add the background and make it look continously one piece through all the tanks. Then each tank you can put in a different species.

You would have to do some research, but you might look up putting glass dividers in your 75 gallon so it will act as if it's multiple tanks. There is A LOT more to it though than just putting in a glass divider and throwing in frogs. So please, whatever you decide, research research research!

Maybe someone can help out with a link on the fourm, I know I've seen some really really nice ones on here. Id find a link but I've got to go to work tho and stop being nearly late because of dendroboard!

By the way, making vivs is a fun hobby! I'd rather do three or four instead of one.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I agree that newbies should stop trying to stick more than one species in a tank, and should stop trying to put a waterfall in a tiny tank. My point was, don't come to the forum trying to mix species and build waterfalls on your first viv, it's a sure way to screw something up. Every time someone posts about it, there's at least one person coming along being flat out rude. We can easily be nice about why these things are a bad idea. 

I'm not good at getting my point across, and i end up using words that aren't quite what I'm looking for. I didn't mean "hate" but it's very apparent that things do not go all rainbows and kittens when we bring up mixed vivs... try to sugar coat it, but we all see the responses to someone wanting to mix.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Sugar coating just makes it seem more ok than it really is. We are (mostly) adults here. If you can't take constructive criticisms; that tends to speak more about your character rather than the person offering the help. None of us here in this thread, and I've been around long enough at this point to recognize almost all the names who have been around, are 'mean' people. We ARE however people who thoroughly enjoy this hobby, and have a fair bit of combined experience. We know what we're about, and we know the do's and dont's of setting up vivs. We also know that the most useful function of this forum is the search engine and we want people to be able to use it. We won't sugar coat our posts just for delicate sensibilities who aren't used to hearing 'No.' We care deeply about this hobby and the animals in it; we WANT people to get into this hobby and enjoy it as much as we do, but we want them to do it the right way, and occasionally that means being brusque in order to get the point across efficiently. Hopefully our brusqueness will prevent a harder lesson down the line for the OP, preventing an implosion of a poorly thought out multi-species tank.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Lokirathehunter said:


> . Every time someone posts about it, there's at least one person coming along being flat out rude. We can easily be nice about why these things are a bad idea.


Consider that I've been answering questions and making comments on this sort of topic since 2004 on this forum, how many times do you think I've seen these sorts of questions pretty much only by beginners? According to google there are over *230 threads* where I made at least one comment on this topic ...which should give you a rough idea on how many posts have been made about this subject including a pinned and summarized thread in the beginner's section. 
Given the number of times this has been hashed over and over again, it shouldn't be unexpected that the answers are going to be blunt and often include the reference to use the search function. 

some comments 

Ed


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Lokirathehunter said:


> I hate how hostile people get here. They want people in the hobby, but they wanna have a crap attitude if you do anything new or different. They scare away people all the time. In actuality, they scare them off and the people still end up making a viv, except without telling the forum about it.
> 
> Basically, "mixed viv" is a sure way to get dendroboard to pretty much hate you. (It's frowned upon here)


I thought I gave an excellent example of a successful mixed-species vivarium...


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I've been on here and other forums for about 8 years, I've seen a lot of the posts, I totally understand. I came off really rude, that wasn't my intention. I'm not a fan of seeing the same questions popping up (every week/few days/whatever) I did notice a few posts go dead after being shot down for a mixed viv. I haven't been extremely active on the forums for a while so it might not be very recent.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Lokirathehunter said:


> I hate how hostile people get here. They want people in the hobby, but they wanna have a crap attitude if you do anything new or different. They scare away people all the time. In actuality, they scare them off and the people still end up making a viv, except without telling the forum about it.
> 
> Basically, "mixed viv" is a sure way to get dendroboard to pretty much hate you. (It's frowned upon here)


It's not new or different. This has been a topic that's been brought up for years, and it's been tried many times over. And yes, the vast majority of the time, they absolutely don't work. If you have to ask, you probably aren't ready.

In my experience the best thing you can do though, is a tank with species that inhabit thet same area in the wild. This way they evolved together, inhabit different niches, and more than likely can't hybridize. some examples are variabilis and bassleri, auratus and pumilio, imitator and trivittata, etc. Of course it matters with population/morph you're talking about. 

If you do what most people do who try this, like throw tincs and leucs into the same tank, your chances are pretty low of everything being fine. they're separated by hundreds of miles, they're territorial, and they inhabit the same relative niche.

Just my 2 cents after years of seeing this topic, trying some various things, and knowing people it did and didn't work for.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

My last post, I've been around the forums for almost a decade. I've seen the newbies ask this so many times. Maybe a sticky thread that links to reasons why mixing is a bad idea.


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## Stryker (Nov 7, 2016)

Lokirathehunter said:


> My last post, I've been around the forums for almost a decade. I've seen the newbies ask this so many times. Maybe a sticky thread that links to reasons why mixing is a bad idea.


I am new to this hobby and I don't think you have anything to be sorry about. The passion you have to the frogs happiness is to be commended. So I say to you Lokirathehunter don't stop posting your passion for these little animals that depend on us for their lives.

I will say this to the original poster, just because they are frogs doesn't mean they would be happy together. You would never put an African Lion and an Indian Tiger in the same enclosure just because they are both big cats.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

The Groundhog enters the fray.

To the OP: You could have avoided any of this nonsense if you had qualified your post, with something like, "Okay, I read the threads, and I have a couple of specific questions," but the way you phrased it was way too broad. Can you understand why it came off as a kid's question, rather than a "serious" question? There is a reason why these people are called "serious hobbyists."

Now Ed has pointed out the the question "mixed species" needs to be clarified. Mixing frogs? Frogs with other animals? I, for one, do mixed species, and it works for me. Hey, a community aquarium is essentially mixed-species vivarium! I've made the list before, I shall do it one more time. 

Now let's get busy:

1) Big set up.
2) Zoogeographic accuracy. This is important for behavioral as well as pathogenic reasons. Do you know why? 
3) Low bioload. And stratify the set up. Meaning, do not keep pets that do the same thing! This way they do not compete with other (keeping it simple here, Ed 


Here are some set ups that can and do work:

1) American green anoles with American hylids.
2) Red eyed tree frogs with Leucs (can both tolerate a bit warmer and dryer)
3) Terribilis with smaller neotropical hylids.
4) Corytophanes cristasus with larger neotropical hylids. 
5) Chuckwallas and/or desert iguanas with Gila monsters (forget plants).
6) Uromastyx with Schneider's skinks.
7) Smaller cordylids with African lacertids.
8) Reed frogs with small day geckos.
9) Bombina with Paramesotriton.
10) Theloderma with Crocodile skinks.
11) Flying geckos with Hylarana.
12) Water dragons with Asian box turtles (big enclosure).
13) Timon lacertas with Sheltopusik.
14) Striped water dragons with larger Litoria.
15) Mudskippers with fiddler crabs.


Now, I used to keep mudskippers with water skinks; pH above 7, salted for livebearers. Amusing to watch them bicker. But it wasn't quite right ;- 0

Also, the Bronx Zoo keeps it caiman lizards with sideneck turtles and green basilisks, every one is cool. But the enclosure is literally the size of your living room, with an even taller ceiling. 

Now--if your question was specifically about mixing frogs, then it was your job to specify that, not mine to guess. 

Questions?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Sorry to hijack, but since the title is "multi species" I couldn't resist--especially after the big cat comment (which was not incorrect, btw). We foster for an animal rescue in Manhattan, and it happens that the animals are in each others' lines of sight. So, I let the gang play. I find this is actually easier, as it really reduces stress.

Then again, I have a serious background in animal behavior and extensive experience in animal training. I guess I should still say I don't recommend this, don't try it at home?


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Lokirathehunter said:


> My last post, I've been around the forums for almost a decade. I've seen the newbies ask this so many times. Maybe a sticky thread that links to reasons why mixing is a bad idea.


I've learned that apparently nobody pays attention to sticky threads... because there literally is a sticky that talks all about the pros/cons of mixing. It has barely 4200 views in over 6 years. Maybe it needs a new title to catch people's eye better? I dunno. 
2nd Sticky:
Beginner Discussion - Dendroboard
Here is the thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/173258-multispecies-reference-page.html

Also, the compilation thread I created to hand-feed beginners with great threads includes a good thread about this started by Ed:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...ular-helpful-beginner-discussion-threads.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

The information is there. It is readily accessible. This is why people get annoyed when another new thread is started.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Carola: You are quite correct, but we should still find a way to a bit more civil about it. If the poster then insists on being stubborn, then let em have it.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Now to Carolina, the OP: What animals were you seriously contemplating? 

Now do not say, you were just wondering, because we will call Hit Girl and Negan, and they will find you...


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

I'm saying a sticky that is at the top of every area of the forum. I've seen new users post in "parts and construction" without ever posting in the beginner section. That's the popular area of the forum.


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## Lokirathehunter (Oct 16, 2015)

carola1155 said:


> Lokirathehunter said:
> 
> 
> > My last post, I've been around the forums for almost a decade. I've seen the newbies ask this so many times. Maybe a sticky thread that links to reasons why mixing is a bad idea.
> ...



Absolutely needs a refresh, updated with whatever new information.


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## carolparente7 (Dec 4, 2016)

Alright then, I'm the only noob that goes thru stickies and old posts. Lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> The Groundhog enters the fray.
> Also, the Bronx Zoo keeps it caiman lizards with sideneck turtles and green basilisks, every one is cool. But the enclosure is literally the size of your living room, with an even taller ceiling.


I should point out that another issue with aquatic animals like turtles is that they are resistant to amoeba infections and in fact can and do act as carriers. When considering multispecies with a turtle in the mix, you are much more likely to have success with other aquatic species like the caiman lizard than if you try a more terrestrial species like boas or spinytail iguanas. 

some comments 

Ed


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Lokirathehunter said:


> I'm saying a sticky that is at the top of every area of the forum. I've seen new users post in "parts and construction" without ever posting in the beginner section. That's the popular area of the forum.


Yes, that is a popular area of the forum but it is not the only one. You can see the post counts in each forum from this page: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/
There are other very large sections of this forum. If someone is only reading one subforum then it is their own fault for not taking the simple step of clicking a couple other links. 

You can only lead a horse to water.....



Lokirathehunter said:


> Absolutely needs a refresh, updated with whatever new information.


I think you are making a false assumption that there _is_ new information. Most, if not all of the points made in that thread still apply. It would be a waste just to create a new thread periodically to rehash the same information. If there is new info, it should be added to the existing thread. That is how forums are supposed to work. 

Seriously though, there's no reason to double down on your position here. I've been watching this forum for many years and moderating it for 3. I have a pretty good idea of posting habits and what types of threads get read. Most people browse by threads that are recently updated, so sticky threads (unless they are constantly getting posted in) often end up getting ignored. Its the stuff that pops up on the home page or if you click "new posts" that gets all the traction. Why do you think people "bump" things? 

Before I created the compilation threads, sticky threads made up half the front page of some subforums and they got pretty much completely ignored. It was as though too much information was being thrown out there and people just glazed right over them. That's why we worked to consolidate them. The people that wanted to do the research and read have it all in one quick spot now.

From what I see, a sticky is mostly just useful to the person trying to answer a question... because they can quickly find a thread they know is useful.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

carola1155 said:


> Yes, that is a popular area of the forum but it is not the only one. You can see the post counts in each forum from this page: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/
> There are other very large sections of this forum. If someone is only reading one subforum then it is their own fault for not taking the simple step of clicking a couple other links.
> 
> You can only lead a horse to water.....
> ...


Tom, do you think it would help for those of us that know that those sticky threads exist link to those in new threads like this so that they are kept "alive" more effectively?

Mark


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Encyclia said:


> Tom, do you think it would help for those of us that know that those sticky threads exist link to those in new threads like this so that they are kept "alive" more effectively?
> 
> Mark


It might! I know for a little while after I made them, people were posting the "beginner" sticky as a suggestion for newbies and it seemed to help... but then it lost traction. 

I always thought it was a great response to those "hey I'm new here and looking for info" introduction threads. You can simply go "Welcome aboard, here's a great place to start:" instead of the typical "welcome aboard, use the search function". It puts information directly in front of new members (which is great) instead of hoping they can navigate the right search terms. 

Now, some things like "mixing" are easy and the search is great for... but when you are new and a little lost, the compilation threads are your best bet IMO (though I may be biased of course )


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## Yazz (Oct 30, 2016)

I'm a frog newbie and pretty much a lurker on this board. I've been on forums long time and in most, there are stickies.

To me, stickies are the first thing to read to get a handle on basic information. Love how y'all have stickies with threads and within those more pasted threads. I can read on one subject for half a day. Everyone has a little different slant on the subject to give you well rounded information coming from all different angles. Love it!

Being new to the forum, it's not my place to advise the moderators and members. Just want to say that a couple forums routinely refer newbs to stickies. IMHO, it helps the OP to understand the information in all it's different facets. It also helps some posters from saying the same thing over and over again.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

I still believe that this is a question which can be a subject of intelligent discussion. Anything that comes off like a dictum or command is not going to persuade many people.

The problem is this (and I am amazed more people do not see the analogy): Many people who get into this hobby are aquarists, or at least acquainted with fishkeeping. As such, they have heard, "community tanks are fine unless you are breeding." So, it makes sense to me that a kid might wonder, "If I can keep tetras with corys and dwarf cichlids, why not herps?" This is not a bad question for a kid or beginner.

Logic 101, people: Because frogs are not fish is not an answer, it is circumlocution.

The fact is--and it is a fact--it quite possible to keep a dendrobatid, an arboreal frog species and an anole species in a large stratified vivarium. It really is not that difficult. And it is absolutely not the same as, "So, can I keep dart frogs with crested geckos? Can I? Please?? But I know a dude who..." Yes, we all want to smack that guy. I get it. 

The real answers have to do with experience and careful planning. (I know that Ed has addressed many of these parameters in detail, and his posts should be required reading ). You may choose not to do a mixed vivarium, and may feel you are being cautious. Fine. But there are plenty of aquarists who will be left scratching their heads. 

There is a lot to be gained from intelligent discussion. I, for one, find comparisons to be illuminating, I think they help to educate both sides. 

P. S.

I am also a bit perturbed that the OP is nowhere to be found. Guess our time is not as important as his...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Groundhog said:


> I still believe that this is a question which can be a subject of intelligent discussion. Anything that comes off like a dictum or command is not going to persuade many people.
> 
> The problem is this (and I am amazed more people do not see the analogy): Many people who get into this hobby are aquarists, or at least acquainted with fishkeeping. As such, they have heard, "community tanks are fine unless you are breeding." So, it makes sense to me that a kid might wonder, "If I can keep tetras with corys and dwarf cichlids, why not herps?" This is not a bad question for a kid or beginner.


If you consider many of the points I've made about these sorts of enclosures, there should also be a connection with how aquarists should set up aquariums. As an example visual barriers and complexity is important when setting up many aquariums even when considering single species aquariums as individuals are going to need to be able to get away from more aggressive or dominant tankmates ... Plan before you begin. 

some comments 

Ed


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## DanConnor (Apr 12, 2009)

People start conversations without searching because they want to have a conversation. If you don't want to be a participant, then don't be. No need to be a dick.

People are against mixing species because most people her keep small enclosures, and mixing there can present problems. If this forum was devoted to very large enclosures, mixing would be the norm. 

Those are my unsolicited opinions.


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## Fingolfin (Jan 31, 2016)

With a large tank, you could probably get away with mixing species that naturally occur together. When I was in Costa Rica a couple years ago, there was O. Pumillo and D. Auratus both active within a couple feet of each other and didn't seem to have a problem with each other.

Ok, now that answering the question is out of the way, time to join the argument! 
Here is opinion, for what it's worth.
When I joined this forum almost a year ago, there were some people who were rude, but in their rudeness there was always constructive criticism. To be fair, I did then, and still do, ask some pretty dumb questions.

Personally I find the sticky threads quite helpful and filled with good information, I find myself looking through one at least one a week. I would hope everyone who has a question would first go through them before creating a new thread.

Also, it would always be a good idea to listen to the more experienced members. Even if they answer your question in a not so polite way, they tend to know what they are talking about. 

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Fingolfin said:


> With a large tank, you could probably get away with mixing species that naturally occur together. When I was in Costa Rica a couple years ago, there was O. Pumillo and D. Auratus both active within a couple feet of each other and didn't seem to have a problem with each other.


In the wild there is forced niche partitioning between auratus and pumilio and granulifera with respect to tadpole placement as the auratus tadpoles eat the Oophaga tadpoles if they end up in the same deposition sites. This is one of the reasons those frogs utilize such small phytotelmata in the wild. See for example 

Ryan, Mason J., and Deborah S. Barry. "Competitive interactions in phytotelmata-breeding pools of two poison-dart frogs (Anura: Dendrobatidae) in Costa Rica." Journal of Herpetology 45.4 (2011): 438-443.

http://www.academia.edu/download/34749237/Ryan_Barry_J_Herp_2011.pdf

some comments 

Ed


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Groundhog said:


> I still believe that this is a question which can be a subject of intelligent discussion. Anything that comes off like a dictum or command is not going to persuade many people.
> 
> The problem is this (and I am amazed more people do not see the analogy): Many people who get into this hobby are aquarists, or at least acquainted with fishkeeping. As such, they have heard, "community tanks are fine unless you are breeding." So, it makes sense to me that a kid might wonder, "If I can keep tetras with corys and dwarf cichlids, why not herps?" This is not a bad question for a kid or beginner.
> 
> ...




Wow this whole thing right here summed up my experience perfectly. Found dart frogs after I got bored of aquariums and felt like I'd research into darts since I've loved them since a very young age due to the colouration. I asked the exact question as everyone else who came from the aquarium hobby. Can I mix frogs? Why not? I'm very glad I asked this question and didn't make the mistake. However to be fair to the people coming from the aquarium hobby or even in general logically it's completely possible to mix species of frogs because look at where they originate from. BUT most beginners don't think outside of the box when answering this question, in the wild the frogs have TONS of space. 

Just my $0.02 as a noob.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DunderBear said:


> , in the wild the frogs have TONS of space.


This is an oft repeated trope that in and of itself not a valid argument. While it appears that the frogs have tons of space in the wild as people think that the animals can move in any direction as far as they want but this isn't true for several reasons. First and foremost is that there has been home site fidelity shown in two genera of dart frogs and this right off the bat limits the distance that a frog is going to be willing to move. The frogs are going to want to return to that location barring some significantly difficult barrier and in fact the frog may die due to its attempts to return. 

Second there is the issues of suitable habitat, these animals are in general patchily distributed where there is suitable habitat so if a frog is forced to move into an area of unsuitable habitat its prospects of survival not to mention reproduction are severely limited and could mean that the individual is functionally extinct with respect to that population unless something permits it to return to the suitable habitat. Ax exaggerated example of this for illustration would be to consider a 30' by 30' room where all of the cover and reproductive needs are found in one patch of 2' by 1' area. The size of the room is immaterial if the majority of it is filled with unsuitable habitat. 

some comments 

Ed


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Ed said:


> This is an oft repeated trope that in and of itself not a valid argument. While it appears that the frogs have tons of space in the wild as people think that the animals can move in any direction as far as they want but this isn't true for several reasons. First and foremost is that there has been home site fidelity shown in two genera of dart frogs and this right off the bat limits the distance that a frog is going to be willing to move. The frogs are going to want to return to that location barring some significantly difficult barrier and in fact the frog may die due to its attempts to return.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fair enough I just thought that compared to even a large viv it's no where near the amount of space compared to the wild hence why they don't coexist well.


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Some species have a home range of 1 square meter. I'll try and dig up the paper that was in if you're curious. For a more anecdotal demonstration, I was lucky to spend a week in central Ecuador and I came across an Ameerega species very close to huts/lodge we were staying at. I found him/her in the exact same spot almost every day for the whole week we were staying there, under the same tree. Small home range indeed.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

The more things change, the more they stay the same around here....people were asking this question when I was a new guy lol....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

DunderBear said:


> Fair enough I just thought that compared to even a large viv it's no where near the amount of space compared to the wild hence why they don't coexist well.


But the problem as I noted above that still doesn't account for niche usages. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

TarantulaGuy said:


> Some species have a home range of 1 square meter. I'll try and dig up the paper that was in if you're curious. For a more anecdotal demonstration, I was lucky to spend a week in central Ecuador and I came across an Ameerega species very close to huts/lodge we were staying at. I found him/her in the exact same spot almost every day for the whole week we were staying there, under the same tree. Small home range indeed.


If I remember correctly I think that was referring to amazonicus/ventrimaculatus and it referred to the total area of a bromeliad. This is to some extent a point I'm trying to get people to think about ... in many taxa that guard reproductive resources, it is the density of the resources that determines the needed size of the territory. This is further complicated by how the territory is utilized but the size argument *isn't valid as an argument against multispecies enclosures as the spatial needs of the animals are typically determined by how they guard resources against the same not other species*. In the majority of cases dissimilar animals are going to be treated more like furniture than competitors. 

some comments 

Ed


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## MasterOogway (Mar 22, 2011)

Ed said:


> If I remember correctly I think that was referring to amazonicus/ventrimaculatus and it referred to the total area of a bromeliad. This is to some extent a point I'm trying to get people to think about ... in many taxa that guard reproductive resources, it is the density of the resources that determines the needed size of the territory. This is further complicated by how the territory is utilized but the size argument *isn't valid as an argument against multispecies enclosures as the spatial needs of the animals are typically determined by how they guard resources against the same not other species*. In the majority of cases dissimilar animals are going to be treated more like furniture than competitors.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


That sounds right; I know that I just read a paper studying habitat usage where the limiting factor in population density was the number of Bromeliads in the territory. The other paper I was trying to recollect was this one:

_Home range size and location in relation to reproductive resources in poison frogs (Dendrobatidae): a Monte Carlo approach using GIS data; Brown, et. al._

Studying variabilis and imitator, home ranges were between 8-30 square meters. Again, host plants seemed to be the limiting factor for at least the imitators, if not variabilis.


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## DunderBear (Feb 5, 2016)

Alright well this thread was a good read for me personally and I'm glad OP ended up asking the question even if it gets repetitive. Thanks Ed and others for the information


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Ed said:


> Second there is the issues of suitable habitat, these animals are in general patchily distributed where there is suitable habitat so if a frog is forced to move into an area of unsuitable habitat its prospects of survival not to mention reproduction are severely limited and could mean that the individual is functionally extinct with respect to that population unless something permits it to return to the suitable habitat. Ax exaggerated example of this for illustration would be to consider a 30' by 30' room where all of the cover and reproductive needs are found in one patch of 2' by 1' area. The size of the room is immaterial if the majority of it is filled with unsuitable habitat.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I'm sure I already know the answer to this, but to confirm my suspicions, does this mean that provided thermoregulatory, physical and territorial needs (i.e. numerous males for certain spp.) are met, a cage could be "too" big, and the extra space is essentially wasted space? Not that this would necessarily be easy to achieve in captivity (aside from your exaggerated example above).



TarantulaGuy said:


> That sounds right; I know that I just read a paper studying habitat usage where the limiting factor in population density was the number of Bromeliads in the territory. The other paper I was trying to recollect was this one:
> 
> _Home range size and location in relation to reproductive resources in poison frogs (Dendrobatidae): a Monte Carlo approach using GIS data; Brown, et. al._
> 
> Studying variabilis and imitator, home ranges were between 8-30 square meters. Again, host plants seemed to be the limiting factor for at least the imitators, if not variabilis.


For those who are trying to find this paper, put it into Google scholar, and a pdf link should pop up.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

My first and and last post on this thread.

If you have not kept frogs before, your first vivarium should not be mixed.

Learn the behaviors of the frogs you're keeping. Learn their habits. Keep them for quite awhile - they'll keep teaching you if you keep paying attention.

I know a few people who keep mixed vivs - and they only attempted it long after they actually had a pretty good feel for the species behavior.

If your first attempt at keeping frogs is a mixed vivarium - you'll never really know if a frogs behavior is natural for the species, or because they're (more) stressed out in a mixed situation.

My advice, don't start with mixed. Period.

s


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## Denny (Jul 1, 2016)

In our hobby this is seen as a bad idea, because if your mixed frogs were to mate then you sold the offspring they would no longer be pure locales. Potentially ruining captive locales and making more people go and take more frogs from the wild


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Denny said:


> In our hobby this is seen as a bad idea, because if your mixed frogs were to mate then you sold the offspring they would no longer be pure locales. Potentially ruining captive locales and making more people go and take more frogs from the wild


This is a ballsy thread to drop your first post in, my friend. Welcome to the board!

Mark


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## jpm995 (Sep 15, 2013)

What makes this even more difficult and complex is even if you do everything right it still could go wrong. I had an 8' long 240 gallon saltwater tank and had just bought a Queen angle for @ $300. Everything was fine, eating good, no ich. Wife got me a French angle for @ $250 for birthday present, added to tank eating and looking good. They largely ignored each other so i thought i was ok but the Queen just stopped eating. Zero aggression from the French. Returned the French [no return policy, ate the cost]. The Queen never started eating and eventually died. Wife never bought me another fish. Point is you have to deal with animals 'personalities' and they can be unique. Just getting the setup correct for multi species is very difficult than getting everything else right can be almost impossible. And it can still go wrong.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

boabab95 said:


> I'm sure I already know the answer to this, but to confirm my suspicions, does this mean that provided thermoregulatory, physical and territorial needs (i.e. numerous males for certain spp.) are met, a cage could be "too" big, and the extra space is essentially wasted space? Not that this would necessarily be easy to achieve in captivity (aside from your exaggerated example above)..


Yes ... however many people are unlikely to see how this functions in the enclosure due to the relatively small size of the enclosures and the fact that the frogs may transverse the wasted space to get to another area/location (consider tadpole placement for an example) but in reality not use it for much else. It is more easily seen in wild animals where despite how it looks on a range map, the animals are not evenly distributed across the landscape but are instead patchily distributed based on resources with the area inbetween those resources unused except as an area to transverse between patches. 

This gets into the idea of core areas versus territory, when you say territory to a person they think that the entire area is defended against other males/females when reality territories actually overlap. As an example in the wild male pumilio do not demonstrate aggression towards non-calling males, females or juveniles, the area is defended against actively calling males ... who are invading the territory. 

As a further example using pumilio, females establish territories that are centered on tadpole deposition sites and then the males establish territories within the females territories allowing multiple females to choose mates from the calling males. See for example Pröhl, Heike, and Olaf Berke. "Spatial distributions of male and female strawberry poison frogs and their relation to female reproductive resources." Oecologia 129.4 (2001): 534-542.

some comments 

Ed


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