# plan to culture phoenix worms



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

the more I think about, the more I'm willing to try it this spring.

Check this out:

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/9008/pvccage.html

Instead, I could attach fiberglass window screening. I could add a roof to the cage by using a plastic rubbermaid lid. Since most insects always fly to the top, it isn't necessary to have a true bottom of the cage. I could simply lift it up to get to the culture cups.

Putting a a small, potted herb bush in the enclosure would be a place where the adults could rest.

The flies only live a few days. Therefore, I could pupate some adults (refrigerate the rest of the larvae) and put them in this "tent" so they could mate. In a few days, I could remove the cultures and put them indoors. This way, I could "time" breeding. I would only need to "mate" flies when I run low or larvae are growing too large.

The negative side, it would be good only for the summer. The only way to restart a new culture is to refrigerate some maggots for the spring, in which I could pupate the adults.


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## chadbandman (Dec 3, 2007)

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthrea ... 32&fpart=1

I think I'm going to try this method. 

Lot's of good info there.

LMK what you think.

Chad


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I've seen that method, but as Corey pointed out on amphibianforum.com, too much exposure to the elements could be a health hazard for frogs and people. Corey (kerokero) remarked that after feeding houseflies to her bicolor, the frog started to have nasty loads of parasites in thes tool.

With the method I'm proposing, one has better control since the cultures will only be outside long enough for the soldier flies to lay eggs. They only live 3-5 days. Window screen will prevent houseflies from entering. Unfortunately, fruit flies will still be able to bypass the screen. But I think there is less to worry about wild fruit flies than wild blue bottle or green bottle flies.

However, if you use a media that has low sugar, with cabbage and alfalfa as a base, it would be less likely that the fruit flies will be attracted. The house flies won't be able to enter if there is screening (in case you use something stinky like cabbage).


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are still health issues due to the fact that while parasites may be less of an issue, the germs that really make me cringe still are unless you're going to make sure to clean the eggs before they hatch, so you don't have to worry about the larvae carrying the germs as well. 

I'm getting a little confused with why you guys are willing to go through all this effort to try and breed phoenix worms for yourself when you can breed houseflies just as easily and be able to keep them in a MUCH smaller (as in a couple of liters) tank where they will breed perfectly fine, give you nice little maggots to feed out, no complications with breeding, and give you the same annoyances with flying and food. The only thing I've been able to see that is better about phoenix worms vs. houseflies is that the phoenix/calciworms are sold at more pet stores and offered in more sizes, and there is a bit of hype over calcium (which shouldn't be as huge a deal if you are already supplementing and how many of us are paying the $$$ to feed these expensive worms to our juvies?). I'll stick with my cheaper, less space needy, and easier houseflies for my frogs.


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## jejton (Sep 3, 2006)

Any link to breeding houseflies?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Here is a thread that is a good read about them, and on the last page is a link to a really good sheet on culturing them (everything except the low smell media which that site sells so he doesn't give it away).

Either species tho, the media isn't going to be as low smell as FF media... I've not messed with breeding the housflies since I get them so cheaply as grubs and don't actually need the smaller larvae size right now (since I can just feed out FF larvae and I get the grubs to pupate to flies mostly) so I've got a bag of low smell housefly media that I've not tried to see how low smell it is since I cannot keep up a consistant schedule to breed the darn things.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

One of the ways to cut the odor down on the media is to use a substrate that the flies use to oviposit that is then transferred to a different media that has less of an odor. 
You need a smelly media to get them to lay the eggs but once the eggs are laid you can transfer them to a different media... One of the standard lab medias for rearing the larva is as follows "The larval medium prepared from agar (20 g), dried milk (100 g), yeast (100 g) and water (1000 ml)" however other balanced high protien foods should also work... I don't have time to track down the low odor media but some variation on the above mixture will probably work. 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Corey, do you prefer to feed maggots or the flies? 

One thing I like about phoenix worms is that they grow larger and contain more calcium.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

If I need something to grow larger, I usually just jump to waxies or silkworms, and honeslty it's only for the largest TFs I have (which often prefer those moths over the larvae too LOL). 

I don't totally buy the more calcium bit (it has a lot to do with what they are fed) but I've not studied the numbers enough to know if there is a significant difference with housefly larvae, plus I supplement their diet so this isn't as much of an issue - remember oversupplementation is more common than we think! I think Ed can give a better idea of the calcium contents as he's studied the foods more, and if the houseflies and soldier fly larvae are relatively similar, or worth the hype in nutrition differences. Every time I hear a new feeder being hyped by it's calcium content, I get wary.

I feed out both the maggots (I prefer the term larvae) and the flies. It's like two feeders in one! I've got plenty of frogs that will eat one but not the other, and the rest go for both it seems - I can't go wrong with them. Houseflies are particularly handy for small anoles, geckos and smaller/juvie treefrogs, as well as the larger food preferences of say, E./A. bassleri, the larger Phyllobates species, etc. I buy them in bulk to keep my cricket bill down a lot lol.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

My interest in these versus houseflies is that houseflies seem ickier. Soldier flies as adults do not feed and thus don't bother youmans much. Soldier flies also are said to clean themselves out in a way before leaving the medium. The fact that they can scale a 45 degree angle means that it is easy to collect out and pupate all the mature larvae. Also, although they do occur in dung, any decaying organic material(including plant matter) is suitable. So it seems to me growing these guys could be no dirtier than raising earthworms.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> I don't totally buy the more calcium bit (it has a lot to do with what they are fed) but I've not studied the numbers enough to know if there is a significant difference with housefly larvae, plus I supplement their diet so this isn't as much of an issue - remember oversupplementation is more common than we think! I think Ed can give a better idea of the calcium contents as he's studied the foods more, and if the houseflies and soldier fly larvae are relatively similar, or worth the hype in nutrition differences. Every time I hear a new feeder being hyped by it's calcium content, I get wary.
> .


Soldier fly larva do accumulate calcium for pupation so the end stage larva have more calcium than the earlier stages but the amount they accumulate is also dependent on the amount available in the food source. A food source deficient in calcium will result in low calcium levels in the fly larva especially in the early (small) sizes. 
Calcium can be over supplemented and of some of the common nutritional needs it has one of the lowest levels of safety. Oversupplementation can result in disruption of the calcium to phosphorus ratio (there is a reason it is recommended to be between 1 and 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorus and not say 6 or 10 to 1). In addition too much calcium in the diet can also cause conditional deficiencies in trace nutrients like zinc by competing for uptake. 
Also you have to keep in mind that unless there is sufficient D3 in the bloodstream for the frogs to be able to metabolize the calcium you are just causing a lot of problems. 

Ed


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Houseflies are occuring in some of the same areas as solider flies... that's why solider flies are often liked because they can outcompete the houseflies. When raised in captivity, they aren't any dirtier or cleaner, its all on how they raise them. The difference is tho, that houseflies can be raised indoors - where quality can be controlled - with MUCH less room than the soldier flies because they don't need the aerial breeding room. I don't have that much room sitting around, and I refuse to do it outside where they can can contaminated thru the mesh.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

well, that is the risk I'm willing to take. The risk is probably the same as using meadow plankton. But I know all too well that feeding wild termites, (taking the risk of coccidia, parasites, and pesticides into consideration) produced outstanding mantella and tinc froglets.

However, I have a perfect area outside to put a little PVC screen enclosure up. I have nothing else to put there, and it just grows weeds in that abandoned flower bed anyway.

The problem I have with houseflies is that their adult stage. Soldier flies only live 3-5 days. Houseflies can live 20-30 days, and they need food too.

I would need a small enclosure / tank to rear the adult houseflies, and that is a pain because I would end up cleaning it periodically. Soldier flies outside will not need to be cleaned of fly spots or dead flies, because I can easily brush them into the grass and let nature take care of them.

Soldier flies, minus the larger enclosure, take less work and are easier to control if they get loose in my house. While houseflies can delay their pupation, I like how much more variable it is for soldier flies. All I have to do if I want more soldier larvae is to pupate some larvae and release them in the enclosure with some bait to get them to lay the eggs. Then, I move the eggs into culture cups like waxworms, fruit flies, etc.

Also, referring to the comment about earthworms, most nightcrawlers for live food are Canadian WC worms because they are nonnative to the US.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Just thought I'd throw it out there that some people are starting to use them for composting instead of worms, since the soldier fly larva can process compost faster than earthworms and emit pheromones that keep other types of flies away and attract female soldier flies to lay more eggs. Many areas already have indigenous populations. 

There's even a composting unit made for soldier flies you can buy for your table scraps, though it's a bit expensive. Since the adults don't eat, I wouldn't expect there would be as high a risk of parasites and other nasties being picked up as there would be with other wild food. It might be possible to start off a self perpetuating culture and not have to worry about providing a caged area for the adults at all. Just let them go outside and they return to the composting unit to lay.

This is all just idle speculation, of course. But if anyone wants to take a closer look, here's the web site for the company selling the composting unit.

http://www.thebiopod.com/index.html


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have seen it offered. If you visit amphibianforum.com, greenghost posted a message from the creators of the biopod if one wants to use it to culture phoenix worms for fish and frogs.

But, house flies and bluebottles will visit first before the soldier flies do. While the soldier flies are good at cleaning themselves and emit pheromones, it's better to still err on the side of caution.

Placing a bunch of adult soldiers in a screened enclosure will ensure that they'll find the culture cups easily before other flies get a chance.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

You could start out with some soldier fly maggots instead of relying totally on a native population to start the process. They sell 1000+ counts for $45. The Biopod people also sell starters, though I'm not sure how many maggots are in theirs.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

That was my plan.

My tricolor love FF larvae, but I would rather not solely rely on D. melanogaster for all of my frogs' nutrition. Even a different species of maggot will have a different nutrient profile since soldier fly larvae can feed on totally different substances.


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