# Illegal frogs on this forum



## fred

Hi everyone,

I am very surprised to see that people talk and show illegal and international protected frogs here on this forum; i didn't expect this to be possible in the U.S.

For example the histrionica's in the thread about Breeding eggs & tadpoles at this moment.

We all know that in Germany many illegal frogs are imported every year (smuggled) and the authorities take no action against it.
Some smugglers from Germany offer the frogs openly on the internet, even with 'papers'..
Well, these papers are fake, or they use copies from very old documents.

Like the few histrionica's that ever seems to be 'legal' imported in the eighties where 'bulls eyes', nobody have bred with them, and still the papers are used for all different illegal imported other histrionica morphs.

It is very simple; Colombia doesn't export any frogs, everything that is being offered is illegal.
Also there is nothing bred in captivity from legal histrionica parents.

There are people here in Colombia working very hard on protection and conservation-programs, and at the same time criminal organizations take the frogs from the wild to make fast money.
Don't help these criminals to exterminate the species in the wild, so please don't buy these frogs.
Try to controll your greed and wait untill the frogs reach the hobby in a legal and responsible, good controlled way without wiping out species.

The O. lehmanni is allready allmost extinct mainly because of the poaching, and several other species are severely reduced in numbers.

Is this what we want to achieve with our hobby? i can't believe that..
People who buy these endangered, illegal species are not only helping to exterminate them out, but also break down the good name of our hobby.

Different organizations are looking for excuses to stop the keeping of reptiles and amphibians, in this way they can get a good grip..
We must all fight against this and be clear that his is not what we want.

Are the authorities in the U.S. not taking action against illegal frogs? 
Like in Holland and Belgium you will quickly have a big problem if you show that you keep frogs like Histrionica on the internet..

For example; last frog-day in Holland the frog-trader 'Ben-jungle' is held by the authorities, trying to sell illegal frogs (histrionica, sylvatica, granulifera) on the parking place.

Keeping illigal endangered species is not something to be proud on.


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## sports_doc

Fred, 

Welcome to the forum 

I suspect many of the animals being bred here and elsewhere arent directly 'smuggled' species. Bringing animals into the USA is a challenging task to say the least. Are far as I know you must be licensed with USFW and go through Customs, pay tax, be inspected, and have shipment from licensed and inspected exporters etc. 

Perhaps the bigger problems exist elsewhere if documentation/papers are truly being forged, or traded in parking lots..... but hobbyists here go through great lengths to acquire their animals properly and from CB stock.

That said, many in our community are VERY concerned about the protection of species in their natural habitat and support aggressively the captive breeding and true 'farming' operations out there. 

For the most part the traded animals within the US are well documented.

I know you are passionate, I can see that.


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## ChrisK

sports_doc said:


> Bringing animals into the USA is a challenging task to say the least. Are far as I know you must be licensed with USFW and go through Customs, pay tax, be inspected, and have shipment from licensed and inspected exporters etc.


Correct Shawn, and this process (and more steps actually at the airport with USFW) took place with those frogs being discussed in the thread about Breeding, Eggs and Tadpoles at this moment.


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## frankpayne32

All that is true, but like the OP said...ALL of them in the US are illegal. One way or another they likely came from frogs illegally brought into the country. And, also, smuggling in smaller animals like frogs is actually not that difficult and is done all the time.


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## MPepper

Fred, well said!
Nice to see some representation from Colombia on here.
Mark


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## ChrisK

Frank, did you read my post right before yours?

And fred honestly I'm starting to take personal issue with you (and anyone else really) singling my frogs out personally as illegal, they were quite young when I got them in WITH THE PROPER PAPERWORK, their lineage in other countries I know nothing about, maybe their parents or grandparents were illegally exported into another country, I know nothing about that, EXACTLY the same as anyone who has any frogs that originated in Brazil etc (Castis, Galacts, BYHs, etc), what I do know about are the hoops that were jumped through legally to get THESE frogs.


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## fred

Hi Shawn,

Thanks for the welcome.
I'm affraid the authorities are being mislead with the papers..
In no way it is possible the histrionica's are legal.

Hi Chris, 

Probably you are also mislead by the dealer, I have no reason to believe you are not honest, otherwise you wouldn't expose them on the internet.. if i may ask; did you buy them from Germany?
(by the way and off topic here; the tads are looking good, and it is rain season here at the moment..)

Hi Frank, you are right.

Hi Mark,

Thanks.
Pity i didn't see you in the Cali Zoo, i work there frequently with German.
Keep up your good work!


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## JeremyHuff

Fred,

I agree completely. The fact is many of the dart frogs in the hobby were originally smuggled illegally. Any frogs from Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, French Guiana or Brazil had their founding stock smuggled originally. Many are now well established and haven't been WC in some time. You eluded that legal, captive bred Colombian frogs may be available in the future. Are you aware of any efforts in Colombia to begin farming frogs?


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## zBrinks

JeremyHuff said:


> Any frogs from Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, French Guiana or Brazil had their founding stock smuggled originally.


 This is not true. It's my understanding that there were numerous legal shipments from Venezuela that came in during the early/mid 1990s.


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## ChrisK

JeremyHuff said:


> You eluded that legal, captive bred Colombian frogs may be available in the future. Are you aware of any efforts in Colombia to begin farming frogs?


Yeah that's something I would be really interested in hearing more about also


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Like the few histrionica's that ever seems to be 'legal' imported in the eighties where 'bulls eyes', nobody have bred with them, and still the papers are used for all different illegal imported other histrionica morphs.


Just as an aside, I know of at least two people in the US alone who are still breeding bullseyes


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## markpulawski

You can add all of the Terribilis, Bicolor & Aurotaenia to that list as well. And as Ed usually adds, the most smuggled frog Auratus!! The good thing is the species I just mentioned were smuggled in smaller numbers and their proclivity to breeding in captivity has kept pressure from continued smuggling low.
I would suggest if Colombia does not start some type of frog "farming" program in a true conservationist way many of these species/moprh's will be gone in the wild. Not to mention where the Lehmanni come from most of the habitat has been turned into cow pasture, that type of pressure from both ends would be enough to wipe out a species.


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## DF20

I don't see a problem with the frogs being in America, because apparently its "okay" to have millions of illegal people living in America. Especially because a lot of the people the rare frogs are going into, are treating the frogs BETTER then the native people of where the frogs come from who smuggle them out to make a quick buck. Be mad at your own people for smuggling in the first place, not the people buying them who want to breed them and "save" them from extinction.


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## Topete

DF20 said:


> I don't see a problem with the frogs being in America, because apparently its "okay" to have millions of illegal people living in America. Especially because a lot of the people the rare frogs are going into, are treating the frogs BETTER then the native people of where the frogs come from who smuggle them out to make a quick buck. Be mad at your own people for smuggling in the first place, not the people buying them who want to breed them and "save" them from extinction.


I agree, i don't condone smuggling of any animal, but some times this smuggling has helped other countries to help some animals thrive when they are being literately wiped out of their native land due to development. as far as the ILLEGAL PEOPLE comment.... AMERICA IS ALL ILLEGAL, the only people that have a right to speak their mind on this would be the native americans.

Good luck with your tads Chris, they in fact represent good since this successful breeding also put an ease in smuggling.


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## fred

Hi Jeremy,

I'm in this hobby for about thirty years, and i know in the old days there where not much rules, we all thought it was a bottemless pit where the animals where coming from; now we know its nothing like that..
Like you said, many species are now established and being bred for many years, but O. histrionicus is not one of them, we all know that for a fact.

About a farm in Colombia; i can't do any announcements at this moment, but lets say that there is allways hope..especially if we work together in conservation-projects and protect the animals in the wild.

Chris, don't take it personal..I believe that you believe your frogs are legal, but they are not.
If you want me to prove it for you, send me a copy from your papers (pm) and i'll check this with the authorities here in Colombia, i'm in close contact with the people in charge, so that's no problem.

For many years 'bull's eyes' are also being smuggled, together with a lot of other different histrionica morphs.
The first imports of histrionica and lehmanni in the eighties all died quickly because of the bad condition they where imported, and the lack of knowledge from the people who bought them (me included)..

Very few succeeded to keep them for a longer period of time, but never bred with them, or at least very little.
Also the few young frogs didn't survive for a long time, exactly the same like the pumilio's in those days.

But did you get your frogs from Germany? if they are legal there is nothing to hide.


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## ChrisK

Like I said I know nothing about the parents' or grandparents' history, but as far as the US is concerned they're legal.


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## JimO

I understand and agree with the concern for conserving species expressed by the OP. I don't collect local reptiles and amphibians that are uncommon even if they are not regulated, and I eventually release all the local animals that me or one of my sons has collected. So, I consider myself a passionate conservationist. 

As I see it, and as others have pointed out, probably a large percentage of dart frogs in the U.S. have illegal stock in their lineage. It is what it is. Many of us might own frogs that are common in the hobby that have a decendant that was smuggled illegally. For that reason, I have to come to Chris's defense. 

First, he apparently did everything someone could do to import the frogs legally and it sounds like the frogs were captive bred.

Second, none of us should accuse anyone directly or indirectly of owning illegal animals if we cannot be absolutely certain that everything we own comes from legitimate stock. I believe that it would be difficult to say for certain that a given G&B auratus, for example, has no smuggled relatives unless they were bought from a legally imported group of wild caught or farmed specimens.

Third, no individual should be singled out and essentially accused of owning illegal animals. Aside from common courtesy and respect for one another, this could have the effect of making people less likely to share their successes with the rest of us out of fear of being accused of something. Even though I only have species/morphs that are common in the hobby, I know that I will be more hesitant about identifying the animals I have after reading this thread.

Just my 2 cents.

Jim


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## rmelancon

While I agree there are probalby many illegal histrionicus in the US, there are a few long time breeders int the US that have bullseye, red heads and ecuadorian valley to name a few which were brought in to the country legally way back when. The CB offspring of these animals are few and far between but they are out there. Regardless, your point is still well taken.


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## fred

Wow, it is going fast here..and my English writing is not so fast..

But anyway; for those who thinks they are helping to protect the frogs by smuggling and trying to breed them at home:

In the first place, the frogs belong in their habitat, they are evolved to live there.
Offcourse there is fragmentation of the habitats, but it doesn't help to make it worse and take more of them away..specially if there are legal organizations working on conservation.

Don't underestimate the poaching; still thousands are being smuggled every year for world-wide illegal trade.
Most of these frogs don't survive long, the reason that some species are not available in big numbers anymore, is just because there are not much to find anymore..

O. lehmanni is being smuggled with thousands; now they can't find them nomore.

If you want to do something in saving the frogs in their habitat, don't buy illegal animals and give your support to legal programs.


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## JimO

fred said:


> Chris, don't take it personal..I believe that you believe your frogs are legal, but they are not.
> If you want me to prove it for you, send me a copy from your papers (pm) and i'll check this with the authorities here in Colombia, i'm in close contact with the people in charge, so that's no problem.
> 
> 
> But did you get your frogs from Germany? if they are legal there is nothing to hide.


I think this is out of line. You are new to Dendroboard and you are essentially asking an individual hobbyist to prove to you that his frogs are legal even though you claim that it is impossible for them to be. So, you are essentially trying to publicly prove that his frogs are illegal.

If you've been in the hobby for 30 years, can you prove that all your frogs have been legally obtained or descended from legally obtained specimens?

A very wise man once said "remove the plank from your own eye so you can see to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


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## Ed

JeremyHuff said:


> Fred,
> 
> I agree completely. The fact is many of the dart frogs in the hobby were originally smuggled illegally. Any frogs from Ecuador, Colombia, Venezuela, French Guiana or Brazil had their founding stock smuggled originally. Many are now well established and haven't been WC in some time. You eluded that legal, captive bred Colombian frogs may be available in the future. Are you aware of any efforts in Colombia to begin farming frogs?


There is actually information in the literature that allows for some clarification of some of this..

According to Gorzula, Stefan;1996; The trade in dendrobatid frogs from 1987 to 1993; Herpetological Review 27(3): 116-123

1) Columbia has exported Dendrobatids legally, 226 were exported in 1988, and 25 were exported in 1992
2) As French Guiana is/was a Overseas Department of France, therefor export from French Guiana to mainland France does not require any CITES permits or export/import permits (at least at one time...)
3) Ecuador exported 52 Dendrobatids in 1987, and again in 1989, 18 were exported. 

There were some legal exports from the countries in question which was where some of the older lines of some types were established either in the US or overseas. 

Yes there was smuggling, but there was also some legal shipments. 

Ed


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## Topete

JimO said:


> I think this is out of line. You are new to Dendroboard and you are essentially asking an individual hobbyist to prove to you that his frogs are legal even though you claim that it is impossible for them to be. So, you are essentially trying to publicly prove that his frogs are illegal.
> 
> If you've been in the hobby for 30 years, can you prove that all your frogs have been legally obtained or descended from legally obtained specimens?
> 
> A very wise man once said "remove the plank from your own eye so you can see to remove the speck from your brother's eye."



Agreed, Hierarchy rules in the board and one of the rules of Dendro is to show respect to those before you and guide those in front of you. We all hate poaching and smugglers, please be at peace, we are not the enemy.


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## ChrisK

I also got the Ecuadorian Valley histrionicus in the 90's, those were legal also right?


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## Ed

fred said:


> The first imports of histrionica and lehmanni in the eighties all died quickly because of the bad condition they where imported, and the lack of knowledge from the people who bought them (me included)..
> 
> Very few succeeded to keep them for a longer period of time, but never bred with them, or at least very little.
> Also the few young frogs didn't survive for a long time, exactly the same like the pumilio's in those days.


There are people in the US who have frogs from those imports and have since started breeding them. Success is infrequent but it occurs sufficiently to expand the population in captivity slowly so it is a little premature to say that those frogs are no longer around. I've been around about that long and I've been aware of people with those frogs who were successful with them..... 

Ed


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## markpulawski

ChrisK said:


> I also got the Ecuadorian Valley histrionicus in the 90's, those were legal also right?


Yes Chris those frogs were exported legally however Ecuador shut down the farm/export when they found out they were simply gathering frogs from the wild. There were also a ton of Tricolor's brought in at the same time and those were being raised in large enclosure's. 
I remember the excitement when one of the people close to it said they had success breeing the Histo's on the farm, then later they found the Tricolors had infiltrated the histo area and they had found their tads and mistakenly ID'ed them as Histo tads.


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## fred

One more quick reply, then i have to go..

Chris, if you don't know where your frogs are coming from, you shouldn't buy them; there are smugglers who try to trick you into buying 'legal frogs', we should all be very carefull with that.

Specially with this type of frogs.

Hi Jim, 
I understand your statement, but still I think at this moment it is more important to talk about it, in order to stop the smuggling before it is too late.
This is in all our interest.

I don't think i'm out of line, no matter how long i'm on dendroboard, with all respect, but it sure looks like a open and democratic forum.

I'm not trying to accuse Chris or put him to shame, also i don't blame him for having these frogs, there is no reason to believe he is not honest because he show the frogs open on the internet, but i mentioned that before.
Also i asked him to send a copy from his papers by personal mail, so i could check it for him.

And offcourse i can't prove all of my frogs in the past where legally, this was impossible then.

But times have changed, and we cannot keep our heads sticking in the sand all the time.
It is necessary we do something about the smuggling right now.

haha, that's a very good one: "remove the plank from your own eye so you can see to remove the speck from your brother's eye." 

I agree totally, that's why i allready did that years ago!

by the way; thanks everyone for the reactions; i see there are many people here comitted, and that's a good thing for sure!


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## ChrisK

Thanks for the confidence but honestly I don't know you or anything about you, so the last thing I'm probably going to be doing is sending legal documents to a stranger on an online forum


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## Julio

Fred, is there any chance that there is a conservation project on teh way, sort of what Mark Pepper does in beeding the frogs in the country of origin and then exporting some of the captive bred animals?


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## Topete

ChrisK said:


> Thanks for the confidence but honestly I don't know you or anything about you, so the last thing I'm probably going to be doing is sending legal documents to a stranger on an online forum


wrongful use has happened with less.


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## bmore

slander refers to a malicious, false and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as *written words* or images. now i am new to this forum but am pretty versed in law and in my opinion what fred is saying in terms of "knowing for a *fact* that your frogs are illegal, etc" is a various serious accusation and if he was in this country might be held accountable for his words. I understand being passionate about helping preserve these animals but it is completing inappropriate and unlawful to make such statements without absolute proof. while some will say this is just some forum online, but as many of us know things said on internet, blogs, facebook, ect. have gone to court where there have been serious ramifications.
this forum is sharing ideas and helping each other out. so unless you want to add something enlightening and helpful i say keeping your *opinions* about legality of someones animals to yourself because they are indeed not *facts*.


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## Philsuma

Welcome Fred,

This is a topic that is of particular interest to me, personally. We all do what we can in terms of advancing this hobby and contributing to conservation and I try to advance this issue whenever I see it come up.

Secondly, like Chris said, we welcome you, but we still don't really know who you are. Almost all of the members of this forum and others, know each other through personal contact at various shows and conferences throughout the country. We really are a tight knit group. Can you provide us with a little bio on yourself so that we can get to know you a little better?

You have an excellent chance to contribute to the U.S hobby here and I think we all look forward to your continued postings.


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## SmackoftheGods

Fred, one of the issues I see, at least as far as the board goes, is that you've singled out Chris' frogs. I've seen others post their redhead histos, I've seen others post their granuliferus here on the board. If I were Chris I would probably take this personally because you _are_ singling him out. Instead of mentioning that illegal frogs are being shown or listing every person with a potentially illegal frog you've used Chris specifically to instantiate your claim. That's where a lot of the tension seems to be coming from.

I do agree, it sucks that smuggling occurs and I don't want to (at least knowingly) take a part in it. That's probably why Mark Pepper is one of my primary suppliers of frogs. But as others have mentioned, there _have_ been legal imports of the frogs in question and at this point unless focusing on a very recent shipment (I seem to remember a recent shipment of Blue Jeans that caused a lot of controversy legally) then trying to distinguish between the offspring of a frog that was smuggled and laundard versus imported legally will become highly convoluted. Should I come across someone who's offering an F3 bullseye or granuliferus whose original stock was imported fifteen years ago should I automatically assume that it was originally smuggled and reject the offer? That seems like a cynical approach to this hobby. 

I'm more than willing to reject highly questionable or obviously smuggled frogs. I desperately want to see conservation projects succeed and support conservationists. I want to be as honest as I can in my frog dealings. But to revert immediately to "that's a histrionicus, surely it _must_ be illegal" is a highly cynical and negative attitude to take toward my fellow hobbyists.


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## Philsuma

I know this chart is NOT going to transfer well as a re-post....sorry. Ed provided it a while ago and I did not retain the source info....sorry again

but

It does indicate that some histo's were legally imported to the U.S , no?

We also had Mark P, personally debunk the 30 mystis as frogs that were scheduled for import but "did not make it in", so the knowledge here is flowing. That said.....I'd be inclined to say that IF your blanket statement was of "all Mysti's are illegal" , I'd tend to go with you on that...but are you *sure* that *all* Histo's in the U.S are illegal?>



*Gross hobby frog import trade report into US*


*2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 *
D. spp. 398 25 0 0 0 6 0 580 0 
D. amazonicus 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 
D. arboreus 0 0 14 0 0 0 0 0 0 
D. auratus 2099 505 3834 4556 6283 8442 8184 7353 8730 
D. azureus 95 32 46 20 0 0 24 26 0 
D. duellmani 0 0 0 0 0 0 25 0 0 
D. fantasticus 30 0 0 0 0 0 19 75 0 
D. fulguritus 0 0 0 9 0 0 2 0 0 
D. galactonotus 244 47 0 40 42 31 0 2 0 
D. histrionicus 5 87 0 0 0 9 10 14 53 
D. imitator 63 0 24 5 20 59 34 196 0 
D. lamasi 48 16 8 0 0 0 44 25 5 
D. leucomelas 90 30 5 0 0 290 70 28 287 
D. minutus 0 0 0 0 0 14 0 0 0 
D. mysteriosus 0 0 0 30 0 0 0 0 0 
D. pumilio 3518 1117 28 10 1796 2399 4402 3084 3647 
D. quinquevittatus 90 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 
D. reticulatus 177 0 0 0 22 10 34 42 2 0
D. tinctorius 1301 1234 817 1191 44 48 28 27 52 
D. vanzolinii 0 0 0 0 0 0 33 11 5 0
D. variabilis 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 242 0 0
D. ventrimaculatus 154 0 24 25 47 86 155 124 16 
D. vicentei 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 
D. viridis 0 0 20 0 0 0 0 0 0


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## fred

Hi Julio,

There is a little hope and chance that in the future there wil be a project like that.
At this moment it is to early to say anything about it.

Sadly enough i think it is the only way to protect these frogs against people who -no matter what it takes- got to have these frogs, even if it means complete extermination.

Another thing is that many are thinking this will be a chance to legalize their illegal histrionica's, well, these frogs have all different patterns, like fingerprints, so there is a way to give them all their own identity, and also their hatchlings.
If there wil come a breeding-farm, there also wil be a system for this.

Hi bmore, 

Thanks for the warning, but tell me; is it the right thing to do, when something is not right, to look the other way and walk away?

Offcourse it is also the way how you want to read some words; you can read allready several times that i said i have no reason to believe Chris is not honest..


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## JeremyHuff

Philsuma said:


> It does indicate that some histo's were legally imported to the U.S , no?
> ...but are you *sure* that *all* Histo's in the U.S are illegal?>
> 
> Hey Phil,
> 
> Good to see you back in action. I suspect that those are from Europe and not Colombia/Ecuador. When you look up on the CITES page to get that info, it doesn't say country of export.


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## sports_doc

It is an emotionally charged topic Fred and everyone else, so lets not make it 'personal' here.

Very hard to 'discuss' without ruffling feathers but we can try....

I believe though Fred, that if there were projects to support, hobbyists here and elsewhere would rally behind them 100%.

I suspect [and hope Mark can confirm] that in his early days [your not that old yet are you Mark? ] contributions from hobbyists were helpful in getting his programs off the ground.

I have no idea how challenging it must have been for Mark initially, and maybe it still is a chore to keep projects moving forward and funded. I'd love to hear the stories sometime [maybe in Peru?].

I hear rumors of other breeding programs with Govt/Country of origin support being discussed now which is encouraging.

We all had big hopes that INIBICO would help supply us all with legit/sustainable stock years ago, but alas they werent as lucky as Mark has been.

Let's speculate though that if Chris can produce a few of these animals to distribute here and they become established....at least amongst the hardcore DB members and community we may not have any _desire_ to even consider importing further animals?? It's worked with other species.....

Best,


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## ktewell

Philsuma said:


> D. auratus 2099 505 3834 4556 6283 8442 8184 7353 8730


Holy shit.


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## Julio

Fred,
why do you feel taht there is little hope to setup a breeding conservation project?


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## Philsuma

ktewell said:


> Holy shit.


Yep.......


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## Philsuma

JeremyHuff said:


> Philsuma said:
> 
> 
> 
> It does indicate that some histo's were legally imported to the U.S , no?
> ...but are you *sure* that *all* Histo's in the U.S are illegal?>
> 
> 
> Good to see you back in action. I suspect that those are from Europe and not Colombia/Ecuador. When you look up on the CITES page to get that info, it doesn't say country of export.
> 
> 
> 
> Dude...I'm always in action....
> 
> Well then.....let's assume you are 100% correct and they are EU imports only. Fact of the matter is that Histo's are already in the U.S legally. Just like Vanzolinii (more recent). Chris's frogs could easily be the CB offspring of those legally imported EU frogs.
> 
> How is anyone going to say that any given U.S Histo is illegal unless it has obvious WC evidence - skin lessions, scaring, rubbing, parasite load - this one is sketchy, obviously unless is visible nematodes ect.
> 
> Now if someone was to be dealing in a large amount of any type of highly sought after frog - like numbers @ 100 or so. A case could be made that it is unlikely anyone in the EU is capable of producing that amount in a CB / hobbyist manner.
Click to expand...


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## fred

A lot of energy here..

Offcourse i can tell a little more about myself, no problem.
Well, only there is not much to say about me..I'm from Holland but live for some years in Colombia now, been keeping and breeding amphibians and reptiles all of my life, grazy about nature, and very worried what we leave behind from this for our children..
My work and hobby's are design and lay out gardens, build and decorate terrariums etc., breeding frogs.
I'm living for a few years in Colombia now, it's a beautifull country with a stunning natural diversity.

I learned that the more i learn about nature, the more i start to realize i know nothing..

Ok, let's not talk about the frogs from Chris anymore then, but the about the Histrionica in general.

I see a list with imports; what list is that and where is it coming from?
How can there be legal imports anywhere in the world if Colombia don't give permits for export..?

Julio, i ment to say there is hope! things are going on, more i can't say right now.
When i know some more, i will let you all know, ok?

And again; it's not my intention to offend people, so please don't take it like that.

I just want to put the attention on the smuggling-problem, not on someone personal, and ask everyone not to buy questionable frogs. 
It is not only a matter of the law; this doesn't function allways like it should..we have to take the respondsability our self..

Well, if you have any questions or i can help with something, just let me know, i can give answers to what i know, nothing more and nothing less.

And for Chris; good luck with the tadpoles; this is allways good news, offcourse!


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## james67

fred said:


> O. lehmanni is being smuggled with thousands; now they can't find them nomore.


i have it on good authority that when lehmanii were brought in originally they were VERY difficult to find as well, it took something like 5 days to find a reasonable amount of them. i realize that they are nearing extinction but ive yet to see anyone showing pictures of their lehmanii on a US forum yet you continue to talk about this sp. are you frequenting the Japanese forums with these same questions? how about the EU forums? 

the thing about the US is, the law is concrete, and we are innocent until PROVEN guilty. the burden of proof is on USF&W not any individual, so even accusing someone w/o proof is somewhat foolish. i would expect NO ONE to hand over any papers or show you anything. our society is built on a notion of privacy, dont expect to find out much.

so do you keep any of the frogs in question? since you live in Columbia you just collect them and there is no need for export/import hassles.

james


----------



## D3monic

There's only one thing I buy that originates from Columbia ...and it ain't frogs


----------



## james67

i think that originates from the surrounding countries, like Bolivia 

james


----------



## fred

Hi James,

I don't speak Japanese, but i know these frogs are there also, and i was in the first place not specially interested in this forum because of talking about illegal frogs, it just turnes out that way..
It looks like a good forum with a lot of enthousiastic people.

In Europe offcourse i have been writing a lot about this issue, and with me many others there put a lot of energy to stop the smoggling.

Also in Colombia it is not allowed to keep the frogs or take them from nature; they are protected.

The frogs in the Cali Zoo are most confiscated frogs that people tried to smuggle out of the country.
Also endangered species are being bred there, all with license.

Hi D3monic,

It took a while here; in Europe this would be one of the first remarks they would give..


----------



## poison beauties

I hope your talking about coffee!
Michael


----------



## zBrinks

I hope you guys are talking about coffee . . .

Phil, does that chart include things such as genetic samples transported for research, etc?

A couple years back, I was communicating with some EU hobbyists (mainly concerning Uroplatus geckos) - it was not an uncommon practice for breeders to hold back offspring for a couple/few years, then export them to the United States in one lot. We should not rule out this possibility.


----------



## Philsuma

zBrinks said:


> Phil, does that chart include things such as genetic samples transported for research, etc?


 
We need to get Ed in here or someone that can whip up that past thread and those posts a few months ago with the cites info and that "chart".

I've talked to a number of people including Rich Frye and the general concensus is that there *have been legal imports* of Histrionicus to the U.S. Definately from CB EU animals and possibly WC frogs from Columbia for scientific or zoological purposes (see same issue with _Dendrobates castaneoticus)._


I know what you are wondering now.....well, if they were legal at some point, why aren't we seeing more EU CB frogs coming in? I don't have that answer....

Has USFW "closed the door" on them?


----------



## tclipse

bmore said:


> slander refers to a malicious, false and defamatory spoken statement or report, while libel refers to any other form of communication such as *written words* or images. now i am new to this forum but am pretty versed in law and in my opinion what fred is saying in terms of "knowing for a *fact* that your frogs are illegal, etc" is a various serious accusation and if he was in this country might be held accountable for his words. I understand being passionate about helping preserve these animals but it is completing inappropriate and unlawful to make such statements without absolute proof. while some will say this is just some forum online, but as many of us know things said on internet, blogs, facebook, ect. have gone to court where there have been serious ramifications.
> this forum is sharing ideas and helping each other out. so unless you want to add something enlightening and helpful i say keeping your *opinions* about legality of someones animals to yourself because they are indeed not *facts*.


pretty slick for a rook  



fred said:


> A lot of energy here..
> 
> Offcourse i can tell a little more about myself, no problem.
> Well, only there is not much to say about me..I'm from Holland but live for some years in Colombia now, been keeping and breeding amphibians and reptiles all of my life, grazy about nature, and very worried what we leave behind from this for our children..
> My work and hobby's are design and lay out gardens, build and decorate terrariums etc., breeding frogs.
> I'm living for a few years in Colombia now, it's a beautifull country with a stunning natural diversity.
> 
> I learned that the more i learn about nature, the more i start to realize i know nothing..
> 
> Ok, let's not talk about the frogs from Chris anymore then, but the about the Histrionica in general.
> 
> *I see a list with imports; what list is that and where is it coming from?
> How can there be legal imports anywhere in the world if Colombia don't give permits for export..?*
> 
> Julio, i ment to say there is hope! things are going on, more i can't say right now.
> When i know some more, i will let you all know, ok?
> 
> And again; it's not my intention to offend people, so please don't take it like that.
> 
> I just want to put the attention on the smuggling-problem, not on someone personal, and ask everyone not to buy questionable frogs.
> It is not only a matter of the law; this doesn't function allways like it should..we have to take the respondsability our self..
> 
> Well, if you have any questions or i can help with something, just let me know, i can give answers to what i know, nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> And for Chris; good luck with the tadpoles; this is allways good news, offcourse!


Because they did allow for single exports in small numbers. I'm sure someone went through a HUGE hassle and paid a ton of money to do this. 

WE DO NOT SUPPORT FROG SMUGGLING. Have you seen a single, even ONE marketplace ad for an illegal frog specie? Use search, try to find one.


----------



## jaree2

As someone relatively new to the hobby, I'm very interested in what you have to say Fred, as well as everyone else with knowledge of this subject. I think this topic is something that is not readily apparent to those new to this community or the hobby, and I think its a serious enough issue for individuals to consider when deciding whether or not they are ready to enter the hobby, selecting a species of frog to keep, or choosing a breeder from whom they'll purchase these frogs. 

I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of members on this forum love keeping these animals, and that love is rooted in a deep appreciation for amphibians and reptiles alike. I, along with many others I'm sure, would gladly give up my limited collection if I thought it would achieve dividends in a reversal of fortune for these species in the wild. My enjoyment of observing these animals in my own home is linked to my very strong desire for their continued existence in their natural habitats. 

For these reasons, I readily check for updates on this and related threads to help me better understand this issue, and its impact on my future acquisitions in the hobby. So while others may tire of reading the same arguments I would really like to see this thread continue in scientific discussion, if only for the benefit of individuals, like myself, who do not yet have the years of experience and networking to learn the inside-out of this issue.


----------



## zBrinks

gtclipse01 said:


> Because they did allow for single exports in small numbers. I'm sure someone went through a HUGE hassle and paid a ton of money to do this.
> 
> WE DO NOT SUPPORT FROG SMUGGLING. Have you seen a single, even ONE marketplace ad for an illegal frog specie? Use search, try to find one.


 The OP is not accusing the board of supporting frog smuggling - he is saying that the recent imports of some frogs from the EU were smuggled in origin. 

Are you suggesting that the recent (ie 2008) import numbers for histos that came into the United States are live frogs legally exported from Columbia?


----------



## Philsuma

zBrinks said:


> Are you suggesting that the recent (ie 2008) import numbers for histos that came into the United States are live frogs legally exported from Columbia?


I think those recent ones (last 10 years or so) are the EU frogs. The Columbian WC imports have got to be much older.


----------



## Marty

I don't want to be a pessimist, but I'd think that since we're all tree huggers and pro conservation here, but also frog keepers...we cling to that ideal that the rarer (and maybe the not so rare) frogs in the hobby must have arrived in North America through legal channels... via legal/scientific/research/etc channels. I'm sure a percentage of them did. I remember getting some bastimentos from a legal shipment from Panama. Bunch of them died within few days/weeks. It would be interesting to see the statistics on how many of these legal imports didn't make it past the first 2,4,10,.. weeks. I was told by a guy that ran a pet store in the 80s that he used to order blue jeans pumilio from Florida for about $15-$20 each wholesale. Not many lasted though

I would bet that the reality is probably much different. Smuggling is big business. Most of the time I bet, you don't hear about it until someone big gets caught and that probably doesn't even make more than local news. This is probably an ongoing problem and WC smuggled animals, are probably quietly injected into the hobby all the time. Perhaps now with homeland security a bit less... however I cross the border 2 times per day b/w Canada and US and say in 300 times, I will be pulled over for an inspection maybe 4 times...that said, the inspection probably wouldn't find anything anyways.

Just because it's WC, doesn't mean it will come with scars and bruises. I've seen frogs all over south America that were in mint condition...my WC legal bastis from panama are mint... sure, I've seen few hacks too. Why wouldn't any smuggler knowing that any hacks will be automatically suspected as WC, not just reject them and pick only the mint condition frogs? You'd then pick a frog up at the show or wherever and you wouldn't even know... he'll sell you a story and drop few names and you go home happy. 

I just think that we're a bit too much to the right to acknowledge what the evil doers on the left are doing. Most of us probably don't even want to know once they see that coveted gorgeous frog.

just my personal opinion


----------



## Philsuma

_And is the F&W going to crack down on the other semi legal or illegal frogs like they are trying to do with the dartfrogs? Im guessing not._



Probably not for a number of reasons but that just means WE ,as ethical hobbyists, have to draw a line somewhere and that's a perfect place to start.

I recently turned down an offer to take possession of a pair of CB Castis just because of the above info.

I want to be a good example and make a positive and lasting impression in this hobby. I don't want to be a punch line or an illegal afterthought as someone with "suspect" animals or a speakeasy for a frogroom. 

Another issue to consider is perception from all angles, not just these forums either. I hope Fred from Columbia, or anyone else for that matter, doesn't think that the U.S dart frog hobby contains "a bunch of goofs" and I don't think it does.

Just my .02


----------



## fred

Phil,

For sure i do not think that the U.S. dart frog hobby contains 'a bunch of goofs', well, at least no more or less then elsewhere in the world, hahaha..
I see not much difference with the E.U.

There's a lot of serieus hobbyists on this forum, and interesting subjects, my compliments for that!

Another thing; about histrionica's illegal smuggled to the E.U.; it doesn't make them legal when they get imported from the E.U. to the U.S., they still remain illegal..


----------



## Ed

ktewell said:


> Holy shit.


And people keep wondering why I keep asking questions like where did all of the imported auratus go.. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> We need to get Ed in here or someone that can whip up that past thread and those posts a few months ago with the cites info and that "chart".
> 
> I've talked to a number of people including Rich Frye and the general concensus is that there *have been legal imports* of Histrionicus to the U.S. Definately from CB EU animals and possibly WC frogs from Columbia for scientific or zoological purposes (see same issue with _Dendrobates castaneoticus)._
> 
> 
> I know what you are wondering now.....well, if they were legal at some point, why aren't we seeing more EU CB frogs coming in? I don't have that answer....
> 
> Has USFW "closed the door" on them?


I was in here earlier and posted a reference to an article that covered some of the older trade... 

And I believe Phil is referring to this http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2009/ExportQuotas2009.pdf If one looks backwards, you can also see prior years quotas. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Marty said:


> Just because it's WC, doesn't mean it will come with scars and bruises. I've seen frogs all over south America that were in mint condition...my WC legal bastis from panama are


Most commonly the damage occurs during the various stages of collection, holding and transfer. It really depends on the handling. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Another thing; about histrionica's illegal smuggled to the E.U.; it doesn't make them legal when they get imported from the E.U. to the U.S., they still remain illegal..


There is some question on illegal/legal that still confuses the issue. Before the enactment of the Biopiracy Treaty (which we signed but never ratified the signature (which would allow countries to seek restitution to losses from issues like smuggling)), in some EU countries, smuggled frogs were released to Zoos or select individuals instead of destroying the frogs. The offspring of those frogs were permitted to be legally exported to other countries (at the country of import's discretion to recognize the legality of it or not). Those frogs may not be recognized by the country of origin as legally exported as they were not legally exported (and if pressed may raise a question under the Lacey Act) but have been recognized as legal by many other countries. 
Until the various countries decide what they consider those frogs, there is going to be some grey areas. (Unless there is action under the Biopiracy Treaty). 

Ed


----------



## stevenhman

Ed said:


> And people keep wondering why I keep asking questions like where did all of the imported auratus go..
> 
> Ed


I would (very sadly) guess that a large percentage of them are dead. I too was shocked by these numbers.

Although it is sad that these rare frogs get 'laundered' in Europe (Serbia, Kazakhstan, and other places I believe have been mentioned) I would assume their status in the US _is_ legal. It might be strange to call it an immoral frog, but that might be all it is. I know that we know/think the papers are/might be faked. Whether or not these frogs were illegally smuggled at some point now (in the US) they are certified "CB/legal" with all the right looking paperwork. 

I'm not sure if specific frogs can be tracked easily through this sort of paperwork because I have never had to deal with any.

If the frogs can't be tracked that specifically with the paperwork they came with then there is no way to say for 100% sure that they are illegally smuggled (at point of origin). You may "know" they are, but it might be very difficult to "prove" that they are.

Hopefully I got that out in a way that other people can understand what I am saying. Would I be correct in my assumption that this might be more of a moral issue rather then legal?


----------



## Philsuma

Every time I'm down south, I always say I'm going to go to the Miami Intl Airport and make an appointment to speak to their best herp customs guy and get "all the answers" on our frogs.

I simply _have_ to make this a priority so we can solve some of these issues.


----------



## tclipse

zBrinks said:


> The OP is not accusing the board of supporting frog smuggling - he is saying that the recent imports of some frogs from the EU were smuggled in origin.
> 
> Are you suggesting that the recent (ie 2008) import numbers for histos that came into the United States are live frogs legally exported from Columbia?





Philsuma said:


> I think those recent ones (last 10 years or so) are the EU frogs. The Columbian WC imports have got to be much older.


Phil's point pretty much sums up what I was trying to say. 

I'm suggesting that it was done legally in the past, which was mentioned several times in this thread, including a post by yourself regarding imports from Venezuela in the 1990's (histrionicus excluded there, but you get the idea).

Also:



> For many years 'bull's eyes' are also being smuggled, together with a lot of other different histrionica morphs.
> The first imports of histrionica and lehmanni in the eighties all died quickly because of the bad condition they where imported, and the lack of knowledge from the people who bought them (me included)..
> 
> Very few succeeded to keep them for a longer period of time, but never bred with them, *or at least very little.*
> Also the few young frogs didn't survive for a long time, exactly the same like the pumilio's in those days.


With the given life expectancy of captive PDF's, doesn't it seem *POSSIBLE* that at least one F1 or F2 pair from the 80's could still be alive today? He said *"at least very little" *while simultaneously claiming that *every single* frog must be illegal. 

Do I agree that conservation is important and should be the number one concern with these frogs? Yes. Do I believe that many of our frogs come from bloodlines that were originally smuggled? Most likely. Do I think that calling ChrisK out for having "illegal" frogs (with no proof of where, or more importantly *from when* the F1 frogs of that bloodline were exported/imported) is a hasty assumption and questions the integrity of this board? Absolutely, and that is why I made the first statement. Granted, I had just woken up from a nap and was feeling cranky so I generalized a bit, sorry for that much 


I do have a pretty interesting question. Exporting CB specimens would still be counted as smuggling under the current legal verbage, yes? Or is it illegal to keep natives if you live in Colombia?


----------



## Philsuma

gtclipse01 said:


> Phil's point pretty much sums up what I was trying to say.
> 
> I'm suggesting that it was done legally in the past, which was mentioned several times in this thread, including a post by yourself regarding imports from Venezuela in the 1990's (histrionicus excluded there, but you get the idea).


Please bear in mind that I'm throwing around only what I've heard older froggers or some guys that are more in the know, say. Nobody except Ed has produced any cites or documentation re this thread. So when a few of us say WC "Histos or Leucs" were legally imported into the U.S, it's still second hand info and still needs to be verified.


----------



## skylsdale

Marty said:


> ...we cling to that ideal that the rarer (and maybe the not so rare) frogs in the hobby must have arrived in North America through legal channels... via legal/scientific/research/etc channels... I would bet that the reality is probably much different. Smuggling is big business. Most of the time I bet, you don't hear about it until someone big gets caught and that probably doesn't even make more than local news. This is probably an ongoing problem and WC smuggled animals, are probably quietly injected into the hobby all the time.
> 
> I just think that we're a bit too much to the right to acknowledge what the evil doers on the left are doing. Most of us probably don't even want to know once they see that coveted gorgeous frog.


I would say this is fairly accurate.


----------



## Philsuma

fred said:


> For example; last frog-day in Holland the frog-trader 'Ben-jungle' is held by the authorities, trying to sell illegal frogs (histrionica, sylvatica, granulifera) on the parking place.
> 
> Keeping illigal endangered species is not something to be proud on.


 
and sometimes....it DOES make the news


----------



## StarFrog

I'm new here, not written much as I've been reading lots of threads and information and I do have a question, which maybe silly.

How do you know if you're buying legal CB stock? 

Matt


----------



## Ed

Technically you won't be able to tell unless your frog is accompanied by all of the paperwork. The reason, I mention it that way is that even frogs common in the hobby are often smuggled (for example, D. auratus are pretty much the most commonly imported dart frog for years, yet they are also one of the most frequently confiscated from smuggling attempts). 

In general, it is pretty safe to assume that most of the commonly available frogs are legal. 

Ed


----------



## SmackoftheGods

fred said:


> Another thing; about histrionica's illegal smuggled to the E.U.; it doesn't make them legal when they get imported from the E.U. to the U.S., they still remain illegal..


It makes them laundered. A smuggler can bring them to the EU and then a US hobbyist can file all the legal paperwork to legally bring them from the EU to the US. It may technically be an illegal frog in that the way it was taken from its original habitat was illegal, but they _become_ legal. I think often times this is done with the US hobbyist being none the wiser... then again perhaps that hobbyist intentionally (or unintentionally) doesn't do everything he/she can to find out the origin of that frog, it's really hard to speculate.

Either way, the discovery of the smuggling of the original frog may make the owner of that frog a bit of a pariah among the frogging community, but that doesn't make the frog illegal (at least as far as the US government is concerned).


----------



## Mr. Bronze

Saludos Fred,

Enviame tu numero de telefono por mensaje privado, quiero saber mas detalles del programa de conservacion Colombiano del q tu hablas aqui en este foro.


----------



## ChrisK

Mr. Bronze said:


> Saludos Fred,
> 
> Enviame tu numero de telefono por mensaje privado, quiero saber mas detalles del programa de conservacion Colombiano del q tu hablas aqui en este foro.



I think he's Dutch..........and that he speaks English. Unless you just wanted to ask in a language that ANYONE would understand lol, in this day and age (and especially being from NYC) I understood that as I was reading it


----------



## jubjub47

ChrisK said:


> I think he's Dutch..........and that he speaks English. Unless you just wanted to ask in a language that ANYONE would understand lol, in this day and age (and especially being from NYC) I understood that as I was reading it


Haha, even my limited grasp of the spanish language could fully make out that post. Kinda funny.


----------



## fred

Hi Matt,

How to see a frog is legal or not..well, i don't know how the rules are in the U.S., but in Holland we have a system for this, it is not totally waterproof, but it is better then nothing..

You have to keep up a bookkeeping from all your frogs; the w.c. frogs need the cites-papers, the c.b. frogs need a transfer from.

You have to keep up the frogs that get born with the date, the frogs that die with date, and the frogs you sell with the transfer from (one for you and a copy for the one who buy the frog)

Species like histrionica, sylvatica, granuliferus, mysteriosus, etc. which are not exported legal by the country's from origin need a very convincing prove that they are indeed legal, like a cites-form, or a copy from the cites-form from the parents, and even this is doubtfull if they will accept that..

These type of frogs from a very doubtfull origin are just not acceptable for the Dutch government, only if you can show they are imported with permission and papers from the country of origin.

There is a special department who is very able to recognize the species and they know what they are talkin' about, so they don't get fooled easy..
They know which frogs are for a long time in the hobby and are beeing bred for a long time, also they know about (for example) that the histrionica's where not being bred in the past, so everything in the hobby at this moment is illegal. (point)
The international protection of the animals get taken very serieus in Holland.
In Germany this is very different and you can see the result of this..

Also, the Dutch frog-club doesn't accept people with doubtfull frogs, and everyond new in the hobby get a lot of information about this, so everyone knows what is legal and what is not.

The Dutch frog club (Dendrobatidae Nederland) also takes protection very serieus and they see it as a part of this hobby, it is a respondsibility that frogs in the future not only wil be in the hobby, or even totally be wiped out because of our hobby..

Saludos Mr. Bronze,

I speak Spanish, but still my English is better..or if you speak Dutch is even more better..also i speak some German, French, Portugues, and just some words of 中文, but not enough 中文 to make a conversation, haha..
I don't have much details to tell at this moment, but you can write me a p.m. if you like.


----------



## Afemoralis

stevenhman said:


> Would I be correct in my assumption that this might be more of a moral issue rather then legal?



I think it is interesting that the Mantella situation hasn't been brought up yet. Many are species that are listed inside and outside Madagascar as endangered. Yet they get shipped from a notoriously corrupt country with lax enforcement and we consider it legal.

And hobbyists snatch them up in this country Legal? On some level, sure. A moral issue? From a conservation perspective without question. To me, it is reprehensible- on par with smuggling, yet few even blink.

I think the wake up call in this thread is a good one: Many frogs in this country came in illegally, many many more came in ways that are in opposition to the conservation ethic espoused by this board. 

Find out what you can, the facts are out there and take a stand.

And if your frogs are of illegal/unethical origin, what are you doing now that makes the conservation situation better?

Afemoralis


----------



## Web Wheeler

Without getting into any of the specific details of anyone's frogs, I'd like to clarify a few things with respect to the Lacy Act:



> (a) The term “fish or wildlife” means any wild animal, whether alive or dead, including without limitation any wild mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod, coelenterate, or other invertebrate, whether or not bred, hatched, or born in captivity, and includes any part, product, egg, *or offspring thereof*.
> 
> § 3372. Prohibited acts
> (a) Offenses other than marking offenses
> It is unlawful for any person—
> (1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;
> (2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce—
> (A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in *violation of any foreign law*;
> 
> Emphasis in *bold* is mine.
> 
> Source: United States Code: Title 16,3371. Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute


What this means is that, regardless of how long an animal has been in the hobby or how many generations removed from the wild that animal may be, if such an animal is taken in violation of any law, whether that law be U.S. or foreign, said animal is illegal to possess in the U.S. under the U.S. Lacy Act. Therefore, 1. if there have never been any legal exports of an animal from its country of origin, then all said animals in the U.S. are illegal and/or 2. if there have been legal exports of an animal from its country of origin, but a requirement of said animal's export is that it not be used for any commercial purpose, e.g. only exported for educational or scientific use, then any said animal in a private collection would again be illegal. So, one must be sure that all conditions of import and export are satisfied before a legal determination can be made.


----------



## Philsuma

Afemoralis said:


> I think it is interesting that the Mantella situation hasn't been brought up yet. Many are species that are listed inside and outside Madagascar as endangered. Yet they get shipped from a notoriously corrupt country with lax enforcement and we consider it legal.
> 
> And hobbyists snatch them up in this country Legal? On some level, sure. A moral issue? From a conservation perspective without question. To me, it is reprehensible- on par with smuggling, yet few even blink.
> 
> I think the wake up call in this thread is a good one: Many frogs in this country came in illegally, many many more came in ways that are in opposition to the conservation ethic espoused by this board.
> 
> Find out what you can, the facts are out there and take a stand.
> 
> And if your frogs are of illegal/unethical origin, what are you doing now that makes the conservation situation better?
> 
> Afemoralis


Very nice post. There are a ton of Mantella peeps on this forum, which you probably already know but since my Phelsuma days are way back....I'm sorry that I can't speak knowledgebly on Madagascar and it's herpetafuana.

You remind me of someone I know.....can't quite put my finger on it...


----------



## Philsuma

Web Wheeler said:


> The Lacy Act:.....all offspring........


I'm guessing that the archtypical species for the illegal offspring reference would be _Dendrobates castaneoticus_ ?

Shouldn't there be a list somewhere...and I've looked. Redbook, CITES, USFW, neatly listing all the species that absolutely cannot be imported or owned?


----------



## Julio

Fred,

Keeping careful records of your frogs is not full proof as to wether or not your frogs are wild caught or captive bred. 

When i first got in the hobby just about every frog on the market was wild caught and at that point CITES papers were never given with the frogs even after CITES was established, i dod remember that i was told by several breeders to document any egg laying and tads and froglets that morph out through the means of photography to prove that they are captive bred offsprings, in today's hobby there are so many frogs out there and so many people breeding them that is really hard to keep track of things like such i for one do have a camera at the ready near the frogs to take pics when i ever i see them showing any breeding behavior, but mainly just for my personal used, not because is required as it used to be.


----------



## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> I'm guessing that the archtypical species for the illegal offspring reference would be _Dendrobates castaneoticus_ ?


Well that would be any Brazilian frog right? Just out of curiosity, were any Colombian Phyllobates ever legally exported?


----------



## JimO

Web Wheeler said:


> Without getting into any of the specific details of anyone's frogs, I'd like to clarify a few things with respect to the Lacy Act:
> 
> 
> 
> What this means is that, regardless of how long an animal has been in the hobby or how many generations removed from the wild that animal may be, if such an animal is taken in violation of any law, whether that law be U.S. or foreign, said animal is illegal to possess in the U.S. under the U.S. Lacy Act. Therefore, 1. if there have never been any legal exports of an animal from its country of origin, then all said animals in the U.S. are illegal and/or 2. if there have been legal exports of an animal from its country of origin, but a requirement of said animal's export is that it not be used for any commercial purpose, e.g. only exported for educational or scientific use, then any said animal in a private collection would again be illegal. So, one must be sure that all conditions of import and export are satisfied before a legal determination can be made.


It would take an attorney to read the documentation that led to promulgation of this Act to determine what "offspring thereof" was intended to mean. Is it limited to the direct offspring of the smuggled animal but not to subsequent generations? Or, would each generation be illegal as offspring of the previous "illegal" generation leading all the way back to the original wild caught specimens? It would be difficult to trace bloodlines in such detail. And, most new regulations in the U.S. have a "grandfathering" provision so that the regulation isn't retroactive.

I do agree with Afemoralis that we need to purchase and trade animals, plants and materials derived from them from a conservationist point of view and not based simply on what is considered legal.

My earlier objections to the OP were not intended to disagree with his concern for conservation of wild populations, but the manner in which his comments were addressed to Chris (his first posts on the forum) and it appears that this has been resolved for the most part.

I think a discussion of the broader issues is incredibly valuable because many who are new to the hobby might not know anything about the conservation status of species/morphs and be completely naive with regards to how the frogs are collected and brought into the hobby. Perhaps there should be an ongoing Sticky thread where information on smuggling activities and which frogs to avoid could be posted.


----------



## Rain_Frog

> I think it is interesting that the Mantella situation hasn't been brought up yet. Many are species that are listed inside and outside Madagascar as endangered. Yet they get shipped from a notoriously corrupt country with lax enforcement and we consider it legal.
> 
> And hobbyists snatch them up in this country Legal? On some level, sure. A moral issue? From a conservation perspective without question. To me, it is reprehensible- on par with smuggling, yet few even blink.
> 
> I think the wake up call in this thread is a good one: Many frogs in this country came in illegally, many many more came in ways that are in opposition to the conservation ethic espoused by this board.
> 
> Find out what you can, the facts are out there and take a stand.
> 
> And if your frogs are of illegal/unethical origin, what are you doing now that makes the conservation situation better?


Thank you, Afemoralis.


----------



## Web Wheeler

Philsuma said:


> I'm guessing that the archtypical species for the illegal offspring reference would be _Dendrobates castaneoticus_ ?


Yes, that would be a good example. Both this question and JimO's question:



JimO said:


> It would take an attorney to read the documentation that led to promulgation of this Act to determine what "offspring thereof" was intended to mean. Is it limited to the direct offspring of the smuggled animal but not to subsequent generations? Or, would each generation be illegal as offspring of the previous "illegal" generation leading all the way back to the original wild caught specimens?


can be answered from this thread:

D. Castaneoticus Legal Status



> In a letter wrtten by US Fish & Wildlife:
> "It has come to our attention that the Brazil-nut poisen arrow frog is protected under Brazilain Laws as an endemic endangered species. Additionally, after further investigation and consultation with the CITES Management Authority of Brazil, this species was originally exported from Brazil under a CITES permit that retricted its US import to scientific purposes only. The import was also conditioned by stating that the Oklahoma Museum of Natural History, as the original US importer, could only transfer the imported frogs or any progeny thereof with the prior approval of Brazil. The CITES Management Authority of Brazil has indicated that they were never consulted prior to the transfers of specimens of this species by the Oklahoma Museum of Natural History to other institutions and individuals. Consequently, subsequent transfers leading to possession are contrary to the import conditions and therefore, we can no longer find legal acquisition in accordance with 50 CFR 23.15(d)(2)."


----------



## ChrisK

ChrisK said:


> Well that would be any Brazilian frog right? Just out of curiosity, were any Colombian Phyllobates ever legally exported?


Anyone know if this is correct?


----------



## zBrinks

I'm by no means a mantella expert, but why would CITES place export quotas on them?
http://cites.org/common/quotas/2010/ExportQuotas2010.pdf


----------



## skylsdale

Afemoralis said:


> I think it is interesting that the Mantella situation hasn't been brought up yet. Many are species that are listed inside and outside Madagascar as endangered. Yet they get shipped from a notoriously corrupt country with lax enforcement and we consider it legal.
> 
> And hobbyists snatch them up in this country. Legal?


Over the past few years I have searched off and on for CB _M. milotympanum_. I contacted various breeders and hobbyists working with them, and nearly every time I received an answer that both puzzled and concerned me: "Sure, there are some CB animals around...but why don't you just get some WC ones? A bunch will be coming into the country in a few months." So even in my attempt to procure CB animals, I was still encouraged to obtain WC ones. Sometimes this was done under the recommendation that getting WC ones would help add to the genetic diversity for future CB animals and offspring, and I understand that and fully support the _sustainable_ collection of founder stock for future CB progeny. The irony is that unless these animals are managed carefully and responsibly, that initial founding group will never happen: it just becomes one massive vacuum suck of demand on populations, as has been stated above, already serverely diminished in the wild. Always functioning under the assumption that next year there will always be another import could come crashing down fairly soon given the status of many of them in the wild, and as Afemoralis mentioned, the morality of which (and this is a personal decision for each hobbyist) could be extremely questionable given the dwindling numbers of wild populations.



> I think the wake up call in this thread is a good one: Many frogs in this country came in illegally, many many more came in ways that are in opposition to the conservation ethic espoused by this board.
> 
> And if your frogs are of illegal/unethical origin, what are you doing now that makes the conservation situation better?


Agreed. What I see a lot of is what sociologists and psychologists call "magical thinking" -- assuming that just by being aware of an issue, or even going so far as to discuss it with others ,we are somehow doing something about it (. Taking _action_ is doing something about it...anything prior to that, while good and necessary, isn't actually doing anything about the real situation. And _doing _something about it could simply include managing your animals better and keeping track of them and where they go and where they came from and not to rely on the assumption that there will always be another import from which to obtain more animals.

_At this moment in history, we are all caught in the hell of frenetic passivity._ 
-R.D. Laing


----------



## stevenhman

I think we can all agree that there are a number of quasi legal frogs in the hobby.

What do we do now? Try to ignore this problem? Call the USFW and tell them that we've all been naughty? Everyone who has (quasi) legal frogs register them with TWI/ASN?

I doubt that there is enough space in institutions for all such frogs. I do not think that destroying the animals is an option either.


----------



## Afemoralis

zBrinks said:


> I'm by no means a mantella expert, but why would CITES place export quotas on them?
> http://cites.org/common/quotas/2010/ExportQuotas2010.pdf


http://www.cites.org/eng/cop/11/prop/46.pdf

and

Raxworthy and Nassbaum (2000): Extinction and extinction vulnerability of amphibians and reptiles in Madagascar. Amphibian and Reptile Conservation 2:15-23


----------



## ChrisK

stevenhman said:


> I think we can all agree that there are a number of quasi legal frogs in the hobby.
> 
> What do we do now? Try to ignore this problem? Call the USFW and tell them that we've all been naughty? Everyone who has (quasi) legal frogs register them with TWI/ASN?
> 
> I doubt that there is enough space in institutions for all such frogs. I do not think that destroying the animals is an option either.


That was my point, using that as a guideline, anyone with CB galacts, BYHs, castis, terribilis, bicolors, etc is just as irresponsible as someone buying a freshly imported group of lehmanni or arboreus


----------



## Ed

zBrinks said:


> I'm by no means a mantella expert, but why would CITES place export quotas on them?
> http://cites.org/common/quotas/2010/ExportQuotas2010.pdf


The quota is usually set at the request of the exporting country along with a vote of the members of CITES. Since this includes a number of different interests there is always a lot of political baggage along with it. 

Keep in mind that zero is a quota. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Web Wheeler said:


> \ What this means is that, regardless of how long an animal has been in the hobby or how many generations removed from the wild that animal may be, if such an animal is taken in violation of any law, whether that law be U.S. or foreign, said animal is illegal to possess in the U.S. under the U.S. Lacy Act. Therefore, 1. if there have never been any legal exports of an animal from its country of origin, then all said animals in the U.S. are illegal and/or 2. if there have been legal exports of an animal from its country of origin, but a requirement of said animal's export is that it not be used for any commercial purpose, e.g. only exported for educational or scientific use, then any said animal in a private collection would again be illegal. So, one must be sure that all conditions of import and export are satisfied before a legal determination can be made.



There is also a statute of limitations that applies to the Lacey Act. The general federal statute of limitations of five years generally applies. Now how that works with respect to continously held animals is a good question as the original violation of commerce would have expired. However it seems to be very clear that each transaction in and of itself would be a seperate violation with its own clock. 

Ed


----------



## Web Wheeler

Ed said:


> There is also a statute of limitations that applies to the Lacey Act. The general federal statute of limitations of five years generally applies. Now how that works with respect to continously held animals is a good question as the original violation of commerce would have expired. *However it seems to be very clear that each transaction in and of itself would be a seperate violation with its own clock.*
> 
> Ed


I believe you are correct, Ed.



> c. Predicate Law's Statute Of Limitations Does Not Control
> 
> Because no statute of limitations is set forth in the Lacey Act, some defendants have sought dismissal of Lacey Act charges filed after the statute of limitations for the underlying violation has expired. In United States v. Borden, [FN399] the Fourth Circuit was asked to reverse a Lacey Act conviction in a case involving mussels that had been commercially harvested in violation of West Virginia law. The predicate law had a one-year statute of limitations, and the Lacey Act prosecution did not commence until after that period had expired. [FN400] After conviction, the defendant argued that the state statute of limitations should control, saying that a prosecutable violation of state law is necessary to support a Lacey Act charge. [FN401] Echoing prior decisions, [FN402] the Fourth Circuit disagreed, noting that the Lacey Act is a federal statute governed by federal procedure. Although the Act requires a showing that wildlife was taken in violation of state law, thereby incorporating the substantive elements of state law, "it is not designed to incorporate state procedural law." [FN403] The federal code provides a "catch-all" criminal statute of limitations, applicable to statutes like the Lacey Act that lack their own. [FN404] The federal statute states that a prosecution must commence within five years after commission of the offense. [FN405] The court held that because Lacey Act charges were filed within five years after the state violation was committed, they were timely, regardless of the state's shorter limitations period. [FN406]
> 
> Borden can be misleading however, as it seems to relate the five-year limitations period to the date on which the underlying predicate violation occurs. [FN407] *Commission of a Lacey Act trafficking violation occurs not when the wildlife has been taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of a predicate law, but rather when it is imported, exported, transported, received, acquired, or purchased in violation of sections 3371(a) and 3373(d). Thus, the five-year statute of limitations begins to run when any of these acts are committed, whether they occur simultaneously with, or long after, the underlying violation.*
> 
> Emphasis in *bold* is mine (W.W.).
> 
> Source: The Lacey Act: America's Premier Weapon


----------



## fred

Most frogs in the hobby are actually brought in illegal.

But there is a big difference between species like lehmanni/ histrionicus etc. and for example terribilis, truncatus, tinctosius, etc. 

The frogs that are 'from the beginning' in the hobby, are easy to breed, easy to maintain and stable, and are over the years tolerated and accepted in the hobby.

These are not species like lehmanni and histrionicus, i think everyone who is in this hobby for a while knows that, lets be honest..
These species that came in in the eighties might have given some young ones, but no second generation, and for sure not the numbers that are offered like some months ago..
The frogs in 'the old days' where very unstable to maintain with the knowledge there was in these days, and lets not even talk about breeding....lets also be honest about that..

Also the conditions in these days how the frogs where brought in where bad. (I know an example from a shop who received about 50 lehmanni's in garbage bags)
I have seen Mantella's hundred's of them piled in a little box, most died, only the ones on top stil (barely) alive..

These conditions have changed, and also the smugglers (mostly very experienced 'hobbyists') know how to transport them.

So don't put frogs like histrionicus and lehmanni on one line with terribilis and tinctorius..that's no comparison.

You have to draw a line somewhere, and ask yourself; is it worth it to have these doubtfull frogs in your collection which are obtained in a irrespondsible way, supporting poachers, causing damage to popolutions (maybe irreversibly), and putting down the whole reputation from this hobby, also from a lot of other hobbyists...?

Offcourse a big part is in the hands of the poachers, but remember: without question, no offer..

About Mantella's; Madagascar has a system with quota; every now and then there is research about how many there can be exported at that moment..so they are legal, but if it is justified, i don't know, i have my doubts..if you look on the IUCN redlist how is the status from the species, you can make your own judgement..


----------



## fred

Here is a call for help and understanding from a friend-biologist here in Colombia who does a lot of field-research, and put this on the internet last year november: 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
New! Oophaga lehmanni crisis
The smugglers have again taken the Colombian Oophaga as an easy option, especially the frogs of the Valle del Cauca province. According to our previous results, the red lehmanni morph lives only in 3 small patches of forest that had been previously unknown to local collectors, and the yellow morph, which had disappeared for years, was again located in an area now surrounded by coca crops. Months ago, a foreign smuggler started again to buy many frogs. First, as we understand, were asked 400 lehmanni . The collectors were unable to catch such amount, because they just did not find all those frogs, and supplemented this shippment with histrionica. While there, we were advised that again they are preparing a shipment, presumably of 1000 frogs. During a week of extensive searching in the previously known locations, we could locate only 2 frogs. However, that afternoon, the collectors, came in and collected another 8 frogs, which may well be some of the lastest.

It is often said that a smuggler could never collect all the frogs of an area, but that claim does note that this case involves a team of experienced collectors, in a very circumscribed area. That's why we think lehmanni is approaching a near total or total collapse of their populations. The authorities and entities responsible are doing their best to stop this smuggling tide, but is reality hard to control the extraction in an area like that with much poverty and sluggling history.

Given this complicated situation, we would like to create a mechanism for potential buyers to be aware, understand and can work with us stopping or at least reducing the demand.

Ideally, we could have some flyers and a small website explaining the situation. Given that the extraction and shippment is going to be this December, we need to be fast. Personally, I'll be working on the drafting of the material, but we need help. If you have time and want to help can contact me at my mail. We need graphic artists, page diagraming, and webmaster. Also, translators and editors for English, German and Dutch(does anyone translates Japanese?) Some of you own or manage excellent forums and magazines that might serve to publicize the initiative once it is ready.

This is a non-profit initiative that could later get institutional support. However, in view of the rush, the early stages will depend almost entirely on voluntary support.

Thank you very much
D. V., Colombia
Biologist
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

His call for help didn't help much; in the beginning of the year there where some lehmanni's brought in Germany; they couldn't find more..instead they brought the 'redheads' these are the so called 'c.b. with papers' you have seen appear everywhere in the last months..and also the 'anchicaya'. (this is a natural cross between the yellow lehmanni and the redhead, both frogs from the same area).

That's how the situation is.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Most frogs in the hobby are actually brought in illegal.


Let us look at this statement. I have a problem with it, as it is clearly not correct, I am going to assume that the reference to the hobby is to the dendrobatid hobby and not the frog/toad hobby overall or even the total amphibian hobby. For example let us look at the numbers of pumilio and auratus that were clearly legally exported to the USA each year. Between 2000 and the end of 2008 there almost 70,000 of those two species exported alone (and those numbers are literally a drop in the bucket when compared to firebelly toads and Cynops orientalis). 

So are you claiming that your statement includes all of the legally exported pumilio, auratus (and others such as tinctorius from Surinam...)? Are you claiming that the number of smuggled dendrobatids exceeds an approximation of 7800 dendrobatid frogs a year (this number came by dividing the total number of pumilio and auratus cited above by years reported)? 




fred said:


> But there is a big difference between species like lehmanni/ histrionicus etc. and for example terribilis, truncatus, tinctosius, etc.
> 
> The frogs that are 'from the beginning' in the hobby, are easy to breed, easy to maintain and stable, and are over the years tolerated and accepted in the hobby.
> 
> These are not species like lehmanni and histrionicus, i think everyone who is in this hobby for a while knows that, lets be honest..
> These species that came in in the eighties might have given some young ones, but no second generation, and for sure not the numbers that are offered like some months ago..
> The frogs in 'the old days' where very unstable to maintain with the knowledge there was in these days, and lets not even talk about breeding....lets also be honest about that..


You cannot automatically link the two as all being illegal. Lets be clear here. The frogs that were imported years ago that are still around and are producing are seperate from those more recent questionable imports into the EU and elsewhere. 




fred said:


> Also the conditions in these days how the frogs where brought in where bad. (I know an example from a shop who received about 50 lehmanni's in garbage bags)
> I have seen Mantella's hundred's of them piled in a little box, most died, only the ones on top stil (barely) alive..
> 
> These conditions have changed, and also the smugglers (mostly very experienced 'hobbyists') know how to transport them.
> 
> So don't put frogs like histrionicus and lehmanni on one line with terribilis and tinctorius..that's no comparison.


Actually when dealing with imports they are comparable. The same conditions apply to all of the species and poor transport conditions result in poor survivial and subsequent reproduction regardless. And the fact that there were high mortalities does not mean that none of the frogs survived long term (particularly when related species have been shown to live for more than 20 years) and that there cannot have been reproductions. often captive bred animals reproduce at a higher frequeny than the original wild caught animals and this has not been shown to be the case in this thread. I was working in the pet trade during that period and I saw the conditions etc... 




fred said:


> You have to draw a line somewhere, and ask yourself; is it worth it to have these doubtfull frogs in your collection which are obtained in a irrespondsible way, supporting poachers, causing damage to popolutions (maybe irreversibly), and putting down the whole reputation from this hobby, also from a lot of other hobbyists...?
> 
> Offcourse a big part is in the hands of the poachers, but remember: without question, no offer..


Still one cannot assume that the frogs or thier offspring from the legal imports are still not around when the offspring of those frogs have been documented in pictures etc for many years now. There is a difference between those frogs and any that have been exported illegally. The fact that they were exported with "paperwork" and initially accepted by USF&W does not make those frogs legal. There is a statute of limitations running on that paperwork.... 

Ed


----------



## fred

Hi Ed,

In the 70's and 80' many species where brought in the hobby, without any paper-work or permission from the country's from origin; it was a different time.
The frogs which survived and reproduced are tolerated now.

Histrionica and lehmanni etc. where too difficult to breed in those days.
The ones that first where bred succesfully, where from later (illegal) imports.
These where for sure no big numbers, and not all the morphs that are offered the last years.

Regular there where many illegal imports in Germany and also country's like Denmark, in the years between the 90's up to now.

Not only histrionicus and lehmanni, but also frogs like granuliferus, mysteriosus, sylvatica, ranitomeya-species, etc.

Often frogs just (re)discovered like captivus, and some months later, allready available in Germany..
For example benedicta; allready available illegal in Germany before they could be brought on the market in a legal way..

Last year the Dutch frog club realized together with the IUCN an PROAVES a reserve in Tolima, Colombia to save Ranitomeya tolimense and Ranitomeya dorisswansonae which live there; also R. dorisswansonae got offered this year on the German market..


----------



## SmackoftheGods

fred said:


> lets be honest..
> These species that came in in the eighties might have given some young ones, but no second generation


I don't have all the historical or scientific information that Ed does to have a legitimate problem with everything in this post, but I do have an issue with this statement. This statement suggests the impossibility of second generation animals. What _is_ impossible (or at least really really really difficult) is to have enough information to make that claim objectively and legitimately. I know people who have bred F2 generation histrionica. It's being done now, why is it so impossible to believe that it could've been done in the past? Has anyone gone about tracking the offspring of all of the original legal histrionica to prove that there are no more remnants of the original stock? Or are we willing to admit that without absolute transparancy (and there is none) from all the recipients of those frogs such a task would be impossible?


----------



## chuckpowell

Yes,

I got permits and imported Phyllobates on two separate occasions, D. histrionicus also, and many others. The animals were inspected and passed through customs and Fish and Wildlife as completely legal. I've been keeping and breeding Dendrobatids for a long time and many, many animals came in and were produced long before CITES took effect in the US. I did it and others have also and many of offspring of those animals are still around. In addition, names have chanced considerably over the years and what is now know with one name may not have been called that name 15 or 20 years ago. Remember these frogs can live for 15-20 years and produce offspring for most of those years. I personally find it offensive to calling many frogs in the US illegal - I don't believe they are. I've never heard of anyone smuggling frogs into the US. Yes laws have changed and what was once legal may not be now, but legal is legal. Morality is something different. 

Best,

Chuck



ChrisK said:


> Well that would be any Brazilian frog right? Just out of curiosity, were any Colombian Phyllobates ever legally exported?


----------



## JimO

Fred - There is a common thread in all your information about illegal frogs - Germany. Perhaps more international pressure should be put on German officials to crack down on smuggling. The USF&WS does a pretty good job with the resources they have, so it doesn't sound like the U.S. is the epicenter of frog smuggling. As much as I didn't care for the way this topic was brought up, I have learned a lot and will not purchase any frogs from Germany until there are better import controls in place there.


----------



## chuckpowell

Your blanket, black and white statements are wrong. I personally know both D. histrionicus (which included D. sylvatica at the time) and D. lehmanni were breed in the 1980's in the US. Admittedly not many, but they were. Even so I'd have to agree with you that most of the animals in the US are from much later importations, but these importations, at least the ones I know about, were legal by American standards of the time and these standards are fairly high now days. Also many of the newer Ranitomeya species (including R. benedicta) were legally available in the US in the 1980's and early 1990's and I personally breed, many and distributed them. They were mostly brought in under the name D. quinquivittatus or D. ventrimaculatus - as those were the names that applied to those frogs early on. Take a look at Silverstone's monograph on Dendrobatids (1975) - what was then D. quinquivittatus is now probably 10 different species if not more today and in at least two current genera. 

I'm in the US and know the hobby in the US so I can't speak to other countries. But it has been commented on for decades that many frogs available in Germany were and are of questionable origin. That's why you don't see D. mysterious in the US - its easy to breed, but was never exported from the country of origin so is NOT available in the US.

Best,

Chuck



fred said:


> Hi Ed,
> In the 70's and 80' many species where brought in the hobby, without any paper-work or permission from the country's from origin; it was a different time.
> The frogs which survived and reproduced are tolerated now.
> 
> Histrionica and lehmanni etc. where too difficult to breed in those days.
> The ones that first where bred succesfully, where from later (illegal) imports.
> These where for sure no big numbers, and not all the morphs that are offered the last years.
> 
> Regular there where many illegal imports in Germany and also country's like Denmark, in the years between the 90's up to now.
> 
> Not only histrionicus and lehmanni, but also frogs like granuliferus, mysteriosus, sylvatica, ranitomeya-species, etc.
> 
> Often frogs just (re)discovered like captivus, and some months later, allready available in Germany..
> For example benedicta; allready available illegal in Germany before they could be brought on the market in a legal way..
> 
> Last year the Dutch frog club realized together with the IUCN an PROAVES a reserve in Tolima, Colombia to save Ranitomeya tolimense and Ranitomeya dorisswansonae which live there; also R. dorisswansonae got offered this year on the German market..


----------



## fred

If frogs are illegally exported (smuggled) from Colombia (and they are, because there is for sure no export licenses) are getting imported and legalized in the U.S., i don't think i have anything more to say.

Very sad situation.

I would say; nothing to be proud of and worth defending..


----------



## ChrisK

Fred,

You're kind of contradicting yourself a little bit, it sounds like you don't want anyone working with any Colombian Oophaga, legally exported in the past or otherwise, which is fine, you're allowed your opinion, but then this thread should be titled "Do not work with Colombian Oophaga, legally exported in the past or otherwise." You may not know it but you corresponded in this thread with at least four people who did and/or are still working with legally exported histrionicus and/or the offspring of those legally exported frogs. There's no way you can look at a picture of a frog of a morph that has been legally exported in the past and say "That frog is illegal!" unless you can produce a photo of yourself with that frog that shows its unique pattern (I admit the male I posted definitely has a unique pattern), in the rainforest, with you holding a newspaper with a date on it. I agree, especially with lehmanni, some work needs to be done, and I think a great place to start would be habitat protection/reconstruction, which honestly would probably keep many of the smugglers away, at least during the project, and maybe some type of game warden action going on after.
You did name this thread "Illegal frogs on this forum", and with the data in this thread that says offspring of illegal frogs are also illegal, a frog is either legal or it isn't, so you CAN look at any picture posted of any galact, terribilis (as long as terribs weren't one of the morphs imported by Chuck, just using those morphs as an example), that are not in a zoo exhibit, and say "That frog is illegal!". I didn't see you do that yet.


----------



## Web Wheeler

Readily available, affordable DNA testing is the answer, not only to this issue, but to many other issues in the pet trade as well.

DNA Diagnostics, Inc. - Genetics, Forensics, Paternity, Human DNA Testing, & Animal DNA Testing


----------



## ChrisK

I'm curious if that would work with a frog that has deceased parents?


----------



## chuckpowell

I don't understand. How would genetic testing tell if a frog was legally imported or not. I'm not following your reasoning. 

Best,

Chuck



Web Wheeler said:


> Readily available, affordable DNA testing is the answer, not only to this issue, but to many other issues in the pet trade as well.
> 
> DNA Diagnostics, Inc. - Genetics, Forensics, Paternity, Human DNA Testing, & Animal DNA Testing


----------



## Web Wheeler

chuckpowell said:


> I don't understand. How would genetic testing tell if a frog was legally imported or not. I'm not following your reasoning.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


A DNA profile database for all legally imported animals could be used to certify the animals themselves, plus any resulting offspring, as legal. Additionally, the scientific benefits of having such a database are almost infinite.


----------



## Julio

Fred, in the mid 90s when i was just in middle school i woudl go to the local pet store to buy histos, they had a wide variety of them i even bought a few myself, i had to really beg my parents for it, but it worked out, however they came in with such a heavy parasite load that they did not make it very long, my point is that they were coming in at that time and i am sure they were not regulated then based on the ammount that were coming in.


----------



## chuckpowell

Yeah that might help in the future, but I'm not even sure of that. Each animal would have its own profile - so your going to sequence ever animal imported and all their offspring? It still won't tell you if animals were legally imported in the past. 

Best,

Chuck



Web Wheeler said:


> A DNA profile database for all legally imported animals could be used to certify the animals themselves, plus any resulting offspring, as legal. Additionally, the scientific benefits of having such a database are almost infinite.


----------



## Web Wheeler

chuckpowell said:


> Yeah that might help in the future, but I'm not even sure of that. Each animal would have its own profile - so your going to sequence ever animal imported and all their offspring?


Yes. DNA profiling will get cheaper, better and more readily available.



chuckpowell said:


> It still won't tell you if animals were legally imported in the past.


Perhaps it can. Even if the originally (legally) imported animals are no longer available, as long as one can trace at least one offspring back to one of those original animals, that offspring could be DNA profiled and subsequently all other heretofore untraceable offspring could be identified by that profile as well. At least that's my theory.


----------



## Philsuma

There is very strong and convincing argument here among highly experienced American hobbyists that Histrionicus have Definately been imported within lawful means. The time period - 1970's, 1980's to this day is irrelevant. I don't like the sound of the word "laundering" either but legal is legal. 

Unlike Holland, there is no "frog paperwork" that follows animals here in the US. I have gone to a TON of East Coast reptile shows and have yet to see someone demand proof of lineage with any froglet or OBVIOUS captive born frog.

.....And if someone ever uses the argument of "how does one tell a captive born frog from a wild caught adult " ? Then I submit that person is either being facitious or simply is not a very experienced frogger. Not always....not 100%.....but a fairly accurate guess can be made.

We can only fight the "win-able" battles. If someone is producing CB Histos for example and they show up in forums and shows and as long as that person is an experienced frogger with a history in the hobby and people that can vouch for him, I personally would not challenge and rail against that.

The person that I find reprehensible is someone that would tote around a dozen or more deli cups with rare or hard to get animals that have nose rubs, nematodes protruding from the skin, scaring ect and trying to "move" them to new people for an exorbitant price. These are the red flags for me. The very act of trying to sell new people - or new-er people a rare frog like a Histo, that obviously should ONLY be placed with advanced hobbyists is....not good. Not good for the frog or the hobby.

The U.S hobby is a small tight knit group .A lot of us know 90% of the people in it, either thru direct contact or else, word of mouth of others. The older guys and the "serious" guys already have a good idea on who has what and who is moving what. This isn't crack or weed. A lot of us have a pretty good handle of things.

To say that all US frogs came from illegal animals is just not a fair or even true statement to make.

just my 02. rant for the hour.....


----------



## fred

Well, if the descendants of the original legal imported histrionicus in the eighties (one color morph, 'bull's eye) are still in the hobby in the U.S., tell me why there is so much fuzz about it when someone has a clutch off eggs..?
Why are there waiting lists for the young frogs allready?

Or is this excitement because the 'bulls eye's' in the years changed into 'redheads' or other colour morphs, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon indeed..

And why do people go through so much trouble and pay so much money to get them imported out of Germany if there are being bred in the U.S. for such a long time?

In more then 25 years being in culture there must be more then enough available..

If they are being exported legally from Colombia, why doesn't the institutions who give out the permits know about this?

I do have a great respect for the U.S., and in many ways i find your country a big example for the rest of the world, but what i see here is not one of them.
I am really deeply disapointed in the attitude of some hobbyists i meet here.

Your system is obviously not set to filter out illegal, endandered and protected species, and many hobbyists clearly don't have the consience not to use this system.

The sincererely serious hobbyists and nature lovers over there have a difficult and heavy task to fulfill; i have a lot of respect for them!


----------



## jubjub47

fred said:


> Well, if the descendants of the original legal imported histrionicus in the eighties (one color morph, 'bull's eye) are still in the hobby in the U.S., tell me why there is so much fuzz about it when someone has a clutch off eggs..?
> Why are there waiting lists for the young frogs allready?
> 
> Or is this excitement because the 'bulls eye's' in the years changed into 'redheads' or other colour morphs, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon indeed..
> 
> And why do people go through so much trouble and pay so much money to get them imported out of Germany if there are being bred in the U.S. for such a long time?
> 
> In more then 25 years being in culture there must be more then enough available..
> 
> If they are being exported legally from Colombia, why doesn't the institutions who give out the permits know about this?
> 
> I do have a great respect for the U.S., and in many ways i find your country a big example for the rest of the world, but what i see here is not one of them.
> I am really deeply disapointed in the attitude of some hobbyists i meet here.
> 
> Your system is obviously not set to filter out illegal, endandered and protected species, and many hobbyists clearly don't have the consience not to use this system.
> 
> The sincererely serious hobbyists and nature lovers over there have a difficult and heavy task to fulfill; i have a lot of respect for them!


The original import frogs and their descendants are definitely around. The issue with these animals is that they are not the ready breeders that pumilio are and the experienced long time hobbyist that are working with them do so behind the scenes and only with other experienced long time hobbyist. Many of the long time hobbyist are just not active on the forums so you don't hear much about them and their animals. If you want to learn about who has what, researching and talking with certain people can and will get you the answers you want.


----------



## fred

Hi Tim,

'behind the scenes'?

That sounds a little dark..why would they work behind the scenes if they have the original imported frogs with papers?

So if this long time experienced hobbyists are only working behind the scenes with other longtime experienced hobbyists and they are not active on forums, that means there are no long time experienced hobbyists on this forum?

Also if the l.t.e. hobbyists have the descendants of the original imported frogs and only work together (so they don't exchange frogs with others), that's a confirmation that the rest of the histri's are all illegal.

Offcourse i want to learn about who has what, but even more i think it is imported for the people who have still original imported frogs to be open with it and show what frogs there are, and who has the real descendants..these l.t.e.hobbyists can't be a very big group of people..
Then it is possible to make a revieuw, filter out the illegal frogs and what source they are coming from in order to stop the smuggling and save the populations in the wild.

Cause like you say; these frogs are not the ready breeders that pumilio's are.


----------



## jubjub47

I cannot speak for the legalities of peoples frogs. I don't know how you can jump to the conclusion that all other frogs are illegal just based upon how many handle their time in the hobby. There are some long term hobbyist that do take part in the forums, but not nearly all. Others keep their participation to frognet and some just haven't made the jump into online participation at all.


----------



## jeffr

Fred,

What frogs do keep now?


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> And why do people go through so much trouble and pay so much money to get them imported out of Germany if there are being bred in the U.S. for such a long time?
> 
> In more then 25 years being in culture there must be more then enough available..


25 years does not provide any proof that sufficient offspring are being produced. If that was the case, then almost 70,000 (combined) O. pumilio and D. auratus would not have been legally imported in a 9 nine year period even though they have been in the hobby longer as long as or longer than histrionicus. D. auratus have been pretty consistently brought into the mainland USA for at least 20 years. In the years when they were not coming out of thier natural range, they were being exported from Hawaii to the mainland without captive breeding ever meeting the total demand for those two species. 



fred said:


> If they are being exported legally from Colombia, why doesn't the institutions who give out the permits know about this?


And how long does the respective institutions keep thier records? Can you demonstrate that for the last 30 years those institutions have not ever issued any export permits of any frogs of those species? Or the species complex that it would have been exported under during that time frame? 




fred said:


> I do have a great respect for the U.S., and in many ways i find your country a big example for the rest of the world, but what i see here is not one of them.
> I am really deeply disapointed in the attitude of some hobbyists i meet here.


When compared to the EU in general or Japan, the US is actually a pretty small market for smuggled/laundered species. It is a lot of effort to get the frogs here, the penalties for being caught are pretty signficant both financially and with respect to being jailed for a felony conviction, and the hobby does get monitored both externally by USF&W to some extent and internally by the hobbyists. 

I find it problematic that despite consistent reported evidence at least the older imports were legal, you continue to label them as illegal and refuse to believe that there is even some level of reproduction. 




fred said:


> Your system is obviously not set to filter out illegal, endandered and protected species, and many hobbyists clearly don't have the consience not to use this system.


This is a pretty strong statement that you really do not understand the regulations and laws to enforce it here. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Tim, because there has been no other legal exports.

Jeff, i don't keep frogs at this moment, because they are protected.
I do make observations in the wild, where possible and not too risky, and around my house are some nice (tree)frogs living like Dendropsophus colombianus.

There are many species in Colombia, accept for Brasil this country has the biggest variety of amphibians in the world.
Also here are stil species waiting to be discovered.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> Hi Tim,
> 
> 'behind the scenes'?
> 
> That sounds a little dark..why would they work behind the scenes if they have the original imported frogs with papers?


Behind the scenes means froggers that do not bother with the forum. They know each other and may show up at an event to sell some excess offspring. They have a reputation for keeping species for decades.. 



fred said:


> So if this long time experienced hobbyists are only working behind the scenes with other longtime experienced hobbyists and they are not active on forums, that means there are no long time experienced hobbyists on this forum?


For some odd reason, you haven't even bothered to pay attention to at least a couple of us long term people on here.. including the founder of the original American Dendrobatid Society and his comments on the hobby in the 70s and 80s. I've been around dendrobatids for more than 20 years now including 18 as a ZooKeeper. You have been pretty consistent in tossing around aspersions here.. 



fred said:


> Also if the l.t.e. hobbyists have the descendants of the original imported frogs and only work together (so they don't exchange frogs with others), that's a confirmation that the rest of the histri's are all illegal.


Really on what basis? That is a pretty heavy accusation against people who have had those frogs for 20 years or more with absolutely no evidence except your anecodotal experience. 



fred said:


> Offcourse i want to learn about who has what, but even more i think it is imported for the people who have still original imported frogs to be open with it and show what frogs there are, and who has the real descendants..these l.t.e.hobbyists can't be a very big group of people..
> Then it is possible to make a revieuw, filter out the illegal frogs and what source they are coming from in order to stop the smuggling and save the populations in the wild.
> 
> Cause like you say; these frogs are not the ready breeders that pumilio's are.


All because they don't want to mess around on a forum, does not mean that they aren't open with what they work with.. and personally if I was them I wouldn't respond to you as you have ignored the evidence of legal imports, the comments by people who have been in the hobby for a long time, and have continually made disparaging comments about the hobby. 

The hobby overall is pretty serious about not dealing with smuggled species regardless of what you think about it. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Ed, i can keep on repeating; there has been no other exports from Colombia.
The authorities here are very strickt and accurate.
You have to go through a big pack of papers and problems to export or do anything here.
Only to pickup a simple post-packedge you need to fill a lot of forms with fingerprints and everything.

The department of nature protection where they also give out the licenses, is a very modern well organized organization that works very accurate, they have stored all the information very well; if they didn't give export licenses, you can believe it.
These people take their work and nature protection very seriously.


----------



## chuckpowell

Fred,

I know you mean well, but once again your blanket statements are wrong - many morphs of D. histrionicus were imported into the US the past (I know of at least four, possible five). Also this forum is far from the total of the American Dendrobatid hobby. I answer few questions here and have never reported anything on what I breed and never will and I know many others who are the same. My ego is not tied up in what I keep and what I breed. And once again your statement of 25 years of a few people breeding a few animals must be able to supply demand for a popular animal across a huge country like the US - please. 

I will not argue with you that illegal animals are likely making their way into the hobby the way you define illegal. Frogs brought into Germany and imported into the US with questionable origin. I assume that the US Government is not allowing animals in without proper paper work. I do not have the ability to follow up on the US Government - I assume they do their job properly and well. I work for the US Government as a Geologists and everyone I work with does their work properly and well. I work with some of the smartest people in their chosen field and I assume that most of the US government works the same way. 

There has always been people in the hobby here and I'm sure in every country that have more money than brains. I argued this 20 years ago and I'm getting to old to do it now. The frogs are not my entire life, just a little part. 

We're also not responsible for what other counties do and the records they keep. I have no idea why Columbia doesn't have record of their exports (and really don't care). Knowing Customs and Fish and Wildlife in this country and working with them many years ago I know these institutions were (are) filled with good honest people doing their job well. There are exceptions, there are for everything, but they tend to move on - one way or the other. 

What exactly do you expect the American hobbyist to do? We import the animals legally by our laws (which are not lax). No animal is imported into the US unless it has been legally exported from the country of origin at one time or another. There is no way to trace what happens after that - we have to assume on the basis honesty of people and to do otherwise just leads to a miserable life and one I don't want to deal with. I want to assume people are generally good unless proven otherwise. 

Best,

Chuck 



fred said:


> Well, if the descendants of the original legal imported histrionicus in the eighties (one color morph, 'bull's eye) are still in the hobby in the U.S., tell me why there is so much fuzz about it when someone has a clutch off eggs..?
> Why are there waiting lists for the young frogs allready?
> 
> Or is this excitement because the 'bulls eye's' in the years changed into 'redheads' or other colour morphs, yeah, that's a strange phenomenon indeed..
> 
> And why do people go through so much trouble and pay so much money to get them imported out of Germany if there are being bred in the U.S. for such a long time?
> 
> In more then 25 years being in culture there must be more then enough available..
> 
> If they are being exported legally from Colombia, why doesn't the institutions who give out the permits know about this?
> 
> I do have a great respect for the U.S., and in many ways i find your country a big example for the rest of the world, but what i see here is not one of them.
> I am really deeply disapointed in the attitude of some hobbyists i meet here.
> 
> Your system is obviously not set to filter out illegal, endandered and protected species, and many hobbyists clearly don't have the consience not to use this system.
> 
> The sincererely serious hobbyists and nature lovers over there have a difficult and heavy task to fulfill; i have a lot of respect for them!


----------



## chuckpowell

This statement is basically correct. The few that view here rarely post. And many don't even view this forum. Look at how long I've been here and how many times I've posted. And I am one of the most vocal of the old timers. Its not our job to comment or answer all the little questions that are repeated again and again on this forum. I come here to learn something new, not answer questions. 

Best,

Chuck



fred said:


> So if this long time experienced hobbyists are only working behind the scenes with other longtime experienced hobbyists and they are not active on forums, that means there are no long time experienced hobbyists on this forum?.


----------



## Web Wheeler

fred said:


> Ed, i can keep on repeating; there has been no other exports from Colombia.
> The authorities here are very strickt and accurate.
> You have to go through a big pack of papers and problems to export or do anything here.
> Only to pickup a simple post-packedge you need to fill a lot of forms with fingerprints and everything.
> 
> The department of nature protection where they also give out the licenses, is a very modern well organized organization that works very accurate, they have stored all the information very well; if they didn't give export licenses, you can believe it.
> These people take their work and nature protection very seriously.


Fred,

A search of the CITES Trade Database for live Dendrobates exports from Columbia reports that in 1993 there were 2850 Dendrobates spp. legally exported from Columbia. 

Additionally, in 1994, the following Dendrobates were legally exported from Columbia:

Dendrobates spp. 3
Dendrobates arboreus 3
Dendrobates granuliferus 1
Dendrobates histrionicus 11
Dendrobates lehmanni 30


----------



## Roadrunner

The US Gov`t couldn`t tell an auratus from a mysteriosus to save their life.

They do a great job for what they can do but no person can be up on all the different gecko, frog, monitors, lizards, fish, birds, mammals etc. that they are expected to oversee. If someone can bring in a frog that looks similar to another(and a lot of thumbs are mimics) they probably will if it`ll make them more money than what it`s copying.
Besides that there are many morphs of each species. Once imitators are brought in of 1 morph virtually all the other morphs are now shown as being imported in the past. This means that new morphs of imitators can be imported from EU as it shows they were there before. So no F+W doesn`t do the job of tracking which MORPHS were previously imported.




chuckpowell said:


> Fred,
> 
> I know you mean well, but once again your blanket statements are wrong - many morphs of D. histrionicus were imported into the US the past (I know of at least four, possible five). Also this forum is far from the total of the American Dendrobatid hobby. I answer few questions here and have never reported anything on what I breed and never will and I know many others who are the same. My ego is not tied up in what I keep and what I breed. And once again your statement of 25 years of a few people breeding a few animals must be able to supply demand for a popular animal across a huge country like the US - please.
> 
> I will not argue with you that illegal animals are likely making their way into the hobby the way you define illegal. Frogs brought into Germany and imported into the US with questionable origin. I assume that the US Government is not allowing animals in without proper paper work. I do not have the ability to follow up on the US Government - I assume they do their job properly and well. I work for the US Government as a Geologists and everyone I work with does their work properly and well. I work with some of the smartest people in their chosen field and I assume that most of the US government works the same way.
> 
> There has always been people in the hobby here and I'm sure in every country that have more money than brains. I argued this 20 years ago and I'm getting to old to do it now. The frogs are not my entire life, just a little part.
> 
> We're also not responsible for what other counties do and the records they keep. I have no idea why Columbia doesn't have record of their exports (and really don't care). Knowing Customs and Fish and Wildlife in this country and working with them many years ago I know these institutions were (are) filled with good honest people doing their job well. There are exceptions, there are for everything, but they tend to move on - one way or the other.
> 
> What exactly do you expect the American hobbyist to do? We import the animals legally by our laws (which are not lax). No animal is imported into the US unless it has been legally exported from the country of origin at one time or another. There is no way to trace what happens after that - we have to assume on the basis honesty of people and to do otherwise just leads to a miserable life and one I don't want to deal with. I want to assume people are generally good unless proven otherwise.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


----------



## zBrinks

Check out the 2850 Dendrobates spp. exported in 1993.

I wasn't aware some of the species on the list occurred in Colombia . . .


----------



## fred

Hi Chuck,

Reading your letters i can see your a wise man.

I think it is not only important to keep on learning, but for experienced hobbyists it is a good thing to share with others what you have learned.

One more thing; frogs that are endangered by smuggling for our hobby is not a small issue, this concerns us all.

About the cites list:
In 1994 there where probably a lot more frogs smuggled from Colombia, but what surpises me is the GRANULIFERUS; this one must have been doing a lot of walking all the way from Costa Rica..
Oh, i missed one; the GRANULIFERUS didn't have to walk all the way alone; from Panama it got company form the ARBOREUS..

Anyway, we keep on going in circles, i have said what i had to say, there is not much to achieve here.
It is not any use to keep on going with this, so i'm leaving this forum now and take my distance.

I wish everyone here good luck with the hobby and offcourse all the good in life.


----------



## chuckpowell

This is a very interesting list as half of those species are not known from Columbia but from other countries in the region. 

Best,

Chuck



Web Wheeler said:


> Dendrobates arboreus 3
> Dendrobates granuliferus 1
> Dendrobates histrionicus 11
> Dendrobates lehmanni 30


----------



## Web Wheeler

fred said:


> About the cites list:
> In 1994 there where probably a lot more frogs smuggled from Colombia, but what surpises me is the GRANULIFERUS; this one must have been doing a lot of walking all the way from Costa Rica..


That first report included ALL live Dendrobates exports from Columbia. Here is a report which contains only WILD live Dendrobates from Columbia:


----------



## zBrinks

Would it be a safe assumption that the 'non wild' frogs were 'ranched'?


----------



## Web Wheeler

zBrinks said:


> Would it be a safe assumption that the 'non wild' frogs were 'ranched'?


Could be... I don't know. It might also be re-exports, but I'm NOT SURE about that either.


----------



## Philsuma

Well.....it may not be the "Holy Grail" of evidence but I'm satisifed with it:


Columbian exports to the USA - 1993, 1994....

_Dendrobates histrionicus_ 11
_Dendrobates lehmanni_ 30


There are only a few major outlets for moving a questionable frog in the U.S and when I say "move"...I mean sales to NEW people for Big money. That's the only way for a true smuggler to make money. The older guys....the experienced guys are TRADING their rare frogs more than buying. If a smuggler has to ONLY deal with older guys , he is going to starve! In order to profit and make an illegal venture worthwhile, VOLUME needs to happen and than means sales to newer hobbyists for bigger money.

Does that make sense?

Has anyone seen or heard of someone trying to deal,like, 12 adult Histos, or Sylvas at I.A.D or Frog Day?

Kingsnake.com, Fauna Classifieds?

Local Frog meetings?

I haven't and if I had.....you bet I would have followed it up. Here and with some "other people".

Are some animals coming into the country in a couple film cans in a pocket? Every hear of the old "frog that must have got caught in the lens cap of a camera story"? Fed Ex boxes with some live animals in them?

Well...we can't keep everything out, but when someone thinks we have a big smuggling problem in the U.S hobby, I don't see it. I saw some animals that I had some questions about a few months ago and you all know what I had to say about it. It's all (mostly) here in a couple other threads and it's also on another forum.

There's only a couple people that I've met in this hobby that say..."look the other way dude".....not many....only a couple.


----------



## Ed

fred said:


> About the cites list:
> In 1994 there where probably a lot more frogs smuggled from Colombia, but what surpises me is the GRANULIFERUS; this one must have been doing a lot of walking all the way from Costa Rica..
> Oh, i missed one; the GRANULIFERUS didn't have to walk all the way alone; from Panama it got company form the ARBOREUS..
> .


People continually forget that researchers at universites and elsewhere work with specimens that are live, preserved (in part or in whole). These animals can be shipped via loan or transfer to other institutions and will have to be listed on CITES. So it is easily possible that both of those species were shipped from Columbia and in no way constitutes any proof that there were errors in CITES as they could have been collected for a project and imported into Columbia and then subsequently exported back out. 

Ed


----------



## Philsuma

zBrinks said:


> Would it be a safe assumption that the 'non wild' frogs were 'ranched'?


nope...bad assumption.

THAT assumption screams for documentation. That's the thing we need to do and CAN do. Put the "frog farm" theories to rest. 

If someone is "farming" frogs, especially obligate eggfeeders - they better have serious documentation of their efforts. We just can't accept a few pictures of a couple rows of cinder block enclosures and say.....ok...they have "farms".....


----------



## Web Wheeler

Oops! I've erred. There's a category for "Illegal" in the CITES Trade Database Report which I didn't see at first. I'm NOT SURE what "Illegal" means or how/why "Illegal" frogs are exported. I ASSUME it means that "Illegal" frogs were confiscated and PERHAPS exported to zoos, etc. Here's the "Illegal" Trade Report for All live Dendrobates from Columbia:


----------



## Ed

Or the goverment could have then allowed them to be sold in the pet trade and accepted the profit as they probably weren't sure of the locality from which the frogs originated and could not repatriate them. 

Ed


----------



## Philsuma

Ok...wer'e back to square one again....lol

Like I promised. I'm going to do my part and next time I'm down south....I'll schedule a meeting with someone in charge at the Miami airport - customs. I'll get us some answers.


----------



## Ed

Hi Phil,

I was talking about the Columbian goverment. Back in that time, the US goverment was as likely to destroy confiscations as they were to place them with a Zoo. 
Ed


----------



## Web Wheeler

Philsuma said:


> nope...bad assumption.
> 
> THAT assumption screams for documentation. That's the thing we need to do and CAN do. Put the "frog farm" theories to rest.
> 
> If someone is "farming" frogs, especially obligate eggfeeders - they better have serious documentation of their efforts. We just can't accept a few pictures of a couple rows of cinder block enclosures and say.....ok...they have "farms".....


I just checked "Ranched", and there have NEVER been any "Ranched" live Dendrobates exported from Columbia.


----------



## Web Wheeler

For anyone who would like to confirm my CITES Trade Database results, here's the URL for doing that:

CITES Trade Database


----------



## Philsuma

Ed,

Is there a "history" to other exotic animals in the U.S hobby trade?

Would Bob Clark or someone have the complete history of Indian Pythons in the U.S Hobby?

or Dr Tim tytle have a history or Day Geckos imports and tracking?

Australian Geckos?

Jack Wattley...Discus? I would like to think they do. Anyone know?

*Where is our "history"?*


----------



## Web Wheeler

Interesting that you should mention Jack Wattley because he was also working with Dendrobates in the 1980's.


----------



## Philsuma

Web Wheeler said:


> Interesting that you should mention Jack Wattley because he was also working with Dendrobates in the 1980's.


 
yep...that was no accident. South American fish - frogs.

Is our history "scary" ? Are people afraid to say what happened in the past with frogs ?

I don't know and I don't care. These are my personal efforts to move forward and try to "build something" with my time and effort with this hobby. We all ultimately do what we think we must in life.


----------



## Ed

Web Wheeler said:


> Interesting that you should mention Jack Wattley because he was also working with Dendrobates in the 1980's.


Yep I remember those days very well. 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> Ed,
> 
> Is there a "history" to other exotic animals in the U.S hobby trade?
> 
> Would Bob Clark or someone have the complete history of Indian Pythons in the U.S Hobby?
> 
> or Dr Tim tytle have a history or Day Geckos imports and tracking?
> 
> Australian Geckos?
> 
> Jack Wattley...Discus? I would like to think they do. Anyone know?
> 
> *Where is our "history"?*



In the old time geeks who have worked to keep the history alive. Nope, there isn't going to be the type of time line you are looking for... the organization of various groups in Europe have us beat for the most part there. Look at the publication Salamandra for example. 

Ed 

Ed


----------



## Afemoralis

Put up or shut up time:

The problem is known and discussed. The situation is complex. If there are 'villians' in this situation, they aren't talking about their exploits and profits.

Enough harping. I understand the concern about Colombian frog populations- I'll venture to say all participating in this thread share it.

My question for Fred is this: If you were allowed to request the American Dendrobatid hobby do something to alleviate pressure on these frogs that you obviously care about, what would it be?

No complaints allowed unless you are willing to propose solutions.

-Afemoralis


----------



## zBrinks

Getting old publications, like the ADG newletters, have been pretty helpful in seeing where the hobby has been. Talking to older froggers has been very insightful into past history.


----------



## Ed

One could contact USF&W with any (within a reasonable period of time) imports and ask for a review on whether or not that by allowing them to be imported actually makes them legal if it later turns out that the paperwork was falsified in some manner. 

Ed


----------



## fred

Hi Afemoralis (can't find your name),

To answer your question: like i allready said; don't buy any frogs from a doubtfull origin, don't help smugglers wiping out species in the wild!!
Doesn't matter from what country.

Be aware of your respondsibility, like Ed said in his last mail; do some research and clean up your hobby.
If the system is not ok, change it; don't wait for the authorities to do it, be a step ahead.
People from the frogclub in Holland organized courses for the inspectors, so they are able to recognize the different species, the inspectors organized lectures on frogdays, to learn the hobbyists more about the law and cites-system, and now there is a good contact in between.
That is also a protection for the hobby in general.

It's not my intention to read anyone lessons, but i understand you have no system or bookkeeping where your frogs are coming from or going to; this is something very imported if you want to keep your 'kitchen' clean..

Also to keep up bloodlines it can be a big help.

Working together international can make us all more strong; things like nature-protection/ conservation-projects, working against smuggling, exchanging frog species and bloodlines, protection from our own hobby..and much more.


----------



## DCreptiles

fred said:


> Hi Afemoralis (can't find your name),
> 
> To answer your question: like i allready said; don't buy any frogs from a doubtfull origin, don't help smugglers wiping out species in the wild!!
> Doesn't matter from what country.
> 
> Be aware of your respondsibility, like Ed said in his last mail; do some research and clean up your hobby.
> If the system is not ok, change it; don't wait for the authorities to do it, be a step ahead.
> People from the frogclub in Holland organized courses for the inspectors, so they are able to recognize the different species, the inspectors organized lectures on frogdays, to learn the hobbyists more about the law and cites-system, and now there is a good contact in between.
> That is also a protection for the hobby in general.
> 
> It's not my intention to read anyone lessons, but i understand you have no system or bookkeeping where your frogs are coming from or going to; this is something very imported if you want to keep your 'kitchen' clean..
> 
> Also to keep up bloodlines it can be a big help.
> 
> Working together international can make us all more strong; things like nature-protection/ conservation-projects, working against smuggling, exchanging frog species and bloodlines, protection from our own hobby..and much more.



i have been following this thread for some time now and i have done my best to just sit back and read on to see what the true point of this was.. but i mean who is to say what origin is a "doubtful" one?
and i firmly dont believe our hobby is dirty to the point we need to "clean" it up. i mean you live in columbia and last time i checked... they had a very big illegal export business going on and it isnt frogs.. and they have yet to rectify that situation. like many of the people here posted. we truely dont know where most of these frogs are comming from.. if they exchange too many hands and make it to the board we all for the most part trust and respect that we are each doing our part to keep the hobby clean.. i doubt that anyone on here is directly aiding smuggling by any means. and to suggest it is wrong.


----------



## skylsdale

DCreptiles said:


> ii mean you live in columbia and last time i checked... they had a very big illegal export business going on and it isnt frogs..


You might find it an interesting research project to explore the United State's role in fueling the "big illegal export business" you mention.



> we truely dont know where most of these frogs are comming from..


The fact that we don't know exactly where these frogs are coming from...which populations and how large those populations may or may not be...whether or not they can handle such intense collection pressure (legal or otherwise)...we shouldn't worry about that? Or are we just focused on making sure we have access to the frogs we want to keep?



> if they exchange too many hands and make it to the board we all for the most part trust and respect that we are each doing our part to keep the hobby clean..
> 
> i doubt that anyone on here is directly aiding smuggling by any means. and to suggest it is wrong.


I think part of the point is that people aren't necessarily _directly_ aiding it...perhaps they are aiding it simply out of naivete and become implicit helpers in the smuggling trade.

For instance: we're pretty positive that official collection papers have never been issued to allow the collection of frogs from the island wildlife refuge of Escudo de Veraguas in Panama. To remove animals from wildlife refuges is illegal, even in Panama. However, to export the species _Oophaga/Dendrobates pumilio_ from the country is not. So here we have an animal that was technically exported as a species legally from the country, but illegally collected from a protected wildlife refuge.

So the support of smuggling may not be direct in that everyone keeping this frog was directly involved with the original collection and export...but are they perhaps indirectly supporting it? Do we become implicitly involved in the smuggling efforts?

I think it's a question worth asking, and it's one I ask myself.


----------



## Philsuma

skylsdale said:


> For instance: we're pretty positive that official collection papers have never been issued to allow the collection of frogs from the island wildlife refuge of Escudo de Veraguas in Panama. To remove animals from wildlife refuges is illegal, even in Panama. However, to export the species _Oophaga/Dendrobates pumilio_ from the country is not. So here we have an animal that was technically exported as a species legally from the country, but illegally collected from a protected wildlife refuge.


This is the kind of stuff we need to discuss.

I have heard this tossed around a few times, and now here. If this is true and it appears to be....everyone that acquired these recent imports ought to be ashamed of themselves.

I'd still like to see some documentation on this but man, if true...

Does USW&F simply not care upon import?...i.e.....they are just "various" _O. pumilio_, so who cares?

Was enough cash and "grease" applied in Panama so that the wildlife preserve violation was circumented.

I'd like to know more about this.....


----------



## LorenK

Thanks for the great thread. For new comers to the hobby, the biggest taboo seems to be mixing and everything else is overshadowed. Great to see this topic discussed.

It really makes me think twice before looking toward new frogs.


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> This is the kind of stuff we need to discuss.
> 
> I have heard this tossed around a few times, and now here. If this is true and it appears to be....everyone that acquired these recent imports ought to be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> I'd still like to see some documentation on this but man, if true...
> 
> Does USW&F simply not care upon import?...i.e.....they are just "various" _O. pumilio_, so who cares?
> 
> Was enough cash and "grease" applied in Panama so that the wildlife preserve violation was circumented.
> 
> I'd like to know more about this.....


Hi Phil,

Technically unless permits were included with the export showing that specific morph was not collected in violation of Panama's regulations, any imports and transactions of that morph would be subject Lacey act enforcement as the Lacey allows for the enforcment of ay wild life collected illegally regardless of whether it occured in country or out of country. That information would have been filed with the CITES import permit.. whether a copy of that permit can be located is another story. 

I suspect that the officer who inspected the import was unaware of the different morph localities and thus the potential regulations in Panama covering that morph. 

Ed


----------



## Nicholas

First off I would like to say this:

I love frogs. all frogs and amphibians. poison frogs are my favorite for obvious reasons. I am a soldier. I have fought plenty of times for reason i have agreed with and a few times for reason i have not. And a way to explain the respect i have for all animals is this. I would not feel it to be a loss of my life if i died protecting wildlife and habitat.

So... with that being said ^^^ 

I hope most of you can understand what i am about to say.



histrionica and other endangered species of frogs, fish, and every other animal that finds it's self in the illegal pet trade.

we are to at fault here. even if you only buy CB frogs or any other animal. you yes you are still to blame.

why? are we all still to blame... two reasons...

1. all of these animals were had to have been imported at one point or another.

2. by having a legal market for endangered animals allows smugglers a market to sell illegal animals into. rendering the ability for the illegal market of the pet trade to conceal or mask themselves and ensuring a profit margin to keep existing.

thats the worst. because as long as their is money in it. they will continue to be smuggled.

by having a legal market, makes it easier for smugglers to make money illegally. 


so as long as we have this hobby their will be illegal smuggling of these frogs, or any other animal for the pet trade...

from fish, frogs, even to ivory from elephants. if their are profits to be made. illegal smuggling will happen.


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## Philsuma

Ed said:


> I suspect that the officer who inspected the import was unaware of the different morph localities and thus the potential regulations in Panama covering that morph.


Missing something as big as this could be a career ending move from someone in USF&W.....probably should be.


----------



## jubjub47

Philsuma said:


> Missing something as big as this could be a career ending move from someone in USF&W.....probably should be.


I would suspect that for the USF&W agent to be held 100% accountable would be pretty tough. With the many different morphs and localities and on top of that the variation within populations how would USF&W be able to know if the paperwork accompanying the animals from the export country shows them as legal to leave. Look at how much trouble we as hobbyist have with identifying pumilio morphs just based on pics of the animals and then put yourself in the USF&W agents shoes. If the paperwork is legit as far as what is required from both countries, than his knowledge then becomes best guess just as ours does on all of the random pumilio in the hobby without site data. If the information being exported with the animals is lacking or misleading that is not in any way the fault of USF&W.


----------



## thedude

DCreptiles said:


> i have been following this thread for some time now and i have done my best to just sit back and read on to see what the true point of this was.. but i mean who is to say what origin is a "doubtful" one?
> and i firmly dont believe our hobby is dirty to the point we need to "clean" it up. i mean you live in columbia and last time i checked... they had a very big illegal export business going on and it isnt frogs.. and they have yet to rectify that situation. like many of the people here posted. we truely dont know where most of these frogs are comming from.. if they exchange too many hands and make it to the board we all for the most part trust and respect that we are each doing our part to keep the hobby clean.. i doubt that anyone on here is directly aiding smuggling by any means. and to suggest it is wrong.


i have explained something in many threads now, and i know you have read some of them, yet i still find myself writing it.

there is someone i cant mention that always brings in legal frogs from europe that we KNOW were originally smuggled to europe. take the varaderos, vanzolinii and sisa bassleri for example. ONLY mark pepper has had legal exports of these frogs from peru. yet before they were released to the european market from him, they showed up here as EU bloodlines. if he is the only one that was able to import them from peru, how do we have legal EU bloodlines, BEFORE he released them to europe?!?!?! the answer is obvious, they were smuggled to europe, then faked papers or whatever, and imported here legally. now, they may be legal, but buying them still fuels smuggling. by purchasing them, from this person, they will know they can make money off of EU imports of "new blood" so they will import more. if they import more, the EU hobbyists get more money, if they get more money, they know that smuggling is worth it(to them). SO, you are aiding smuggling by buying frogs like this. i cant make it easier to understand.

thanks for reading my little rant


----------



## Philsuma

jubjub47 said:


> I would suspect that for the USF&W agent to be held 100% accountable would be pretty tough. With the many different morphs and localities and on top of that the variation within populations how would USF&W be able to know if the paperwork accompanying the animals from the export country shows them as legal to leave. Look at how much trouble we as hobbyist have with identifying pumilio morphs just based on pics of the animals and then put yourself in the USF&W agents shoes. If the paperwork is legit as far as what is required from both countries, than his knowledge then becomes best guess just as ours does on all of the random pumilio in the hobby without site data. If the information being exported with the animals is lacking or misleading that is not in any way the fault of USF&W.


In law enforcement you are always held accountable. There is no such thing as "it's a tough job....doin' the best we can"....

When there is a screw up and someone catches it.....heads.....absolutely......roll........


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## Julio

well let's ask ourselves, what are the qualifications for working at USFW? Do they hire people with animals experience and knowledge, i was at the zoo, we often got a call to come inspect some animals that arrived at teh airport and let them know weather or not they were legal to import or not. I am sure this is still happening as well. I can only imagine what the Miami Dept of USFW is, everything comes in through there.


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## Philsuma

Julio said:


> well let's ask ourselves, what are the qualifications for working at USFW? Do they hire people with animals experience and knowledge, i was at the zoo, we often got a call to come inspect some animals that arrived at teh airport and let them know weather or not they were legal to import or not. I am sure this is still happening as well. I can only imagine what the Miami Dept of USFW is, everything comes in through there.


ok....if we want to be generous....let's let the poor USF&W guys off the hook for now.

What about the Importer?....lets discuss that.


----------



## skylsdale

Nicholas said:


> we are to at fault here. even if you only buy CB frogs or any other animal. you yes you are still to blame.
> 
> why? are we all still to blame... two reasons...
> 
> 1. all of these animals were had to have been imported at one point or another.


But this is where trying to turn this into a purely black/white issue begins to break down: I believe that it _is_ possible to sustainably collect animals for market demand. However, there are a few other factors that also need to be at play.

First, we need to know what the natural fecundity of a wild population is and how well it can bounce back from being collected in small numbers (if it would even impact that population at all). Unfortunately, these sorts of studies aren't conducted on the majority of animals (particularly Dendrobatids) being collected, so we simply don't know. Exercising caution and functioning under the assumption that wild populations should be collected as minimally as possible is, in my opinion, a good principle to go by.

Second, hobbyists need to be willing to exercise restraint and patience. Assuming a sustainable population was initially brought in, we need to be willing to wait (maybe a few years) to obtain CB specimens of a desired species that are the progeny of the original established group. Unfortunately people get so caught up in trying to be the first to have an animal and show it off to everyone else, or just to satisfy their urge to have something that hardly anyone else does...the hobby becomes a vacuum, sucking up exponentially greater numbers of freshly collected WC animals.



> 2. by having a legal market for endangered animals...


I just want to mention that the vast majority of most species of Dendrobatids aren't endangered...so we can't assume that by talking about the smuggling of certain species of Dendrobatids is the same as smuggling/selling officially listed endangered species.



> ...because as long as their is money in it. they will continue to be smuggled.


True...and hobbyists refusing to pay for animals they know are of illegal or at least extremely dubious provenance could go a very long way, especially if large numbers of hobbyists made it part of their practice. Yes, this may mean numbers of animals dying in the hands of the person trying to sell them, which none of us obviously want, but could be a sign for them not to continue collecting that particular species or population. However, the frustrating reality is that there will most likely always be someone who is willing to fork over the cash (for reasons stated above).


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## Julio

Yeah the importer plays a part, but USFW is allowing the frogs to come in.


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## skylsdale

thedude said:


> thanks for reading my little rant


That's not a rant at all--just pointing out what one would assume to be painfully obvious.


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## thedude

skylsdale said:


> That's not a rant at all--just pointing out what one would assume to be painfully obvious.


i realize its painfully obvious, but it still happens, and some people even argue against it. in fact, most of the time, nobody even acknowledges that i said it unfortunately.


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## jubjub47

Philsuma said:


> ok....if we want to be generous....let's let the poor USF&W guys off the hook for now.
> 
> What about the Importer?....lets discuss that.


I'm in now way in favor of passing the buck, but lets be serious. If the proper species is in front of the agent with the proper paperwork accompanying it.....

Like I said earlier, we the hobbyist can't identify many pumilio on looks so how can they be expected to.

The problem lies with the importer and more importantly to the exporter. I don't know exactly how the whole process works, but if the importer is requesting one thing and is told from the collectors that's what it is I don't see how they can be held accountable. Seems like if you want to have it done right and know it's right you have to do what Understory has done and I just don't see that happening.


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## skylsdale

jubjub47 said:


> The problem lies with the importer and more importantly to the exporter. I don't know exactly how the whole process works, but if the importer is requesting one thing and is told from the collectors that's what it is I don't see how they can be held accountable.


It's a complex issue. I've had very minimal interaction with direct importers, but I've heard things such as "If I bring in a frog, it needs to be something that can be collected in fairly large quantities, and something that's going to sell." We need to realize that this is always the bottom line: selling frogs. Importers aren't doing this "for the hobby" (as much as some hobbyists might want to believe that)...unless bringing in frogs "for the hobby" equates to good sales for them. Which makes sense: they are doing this primarily to make money, and even more, to make a living, so it should be expected. In that sense, we can't really fault them for bringing in animals (the supply) if those animals are going to sell (the demand). One thing to keep in mind is that there wouldn't be a business or system for them to participate in if there weren't folks at the end of the line willing to purchase these animals.

Now the exporters may be in business wtih some of the importers, so in that sense they may be one in the same. However, some exporters may simply be filling request lists/orders from importers on the other end and sending out collectors to gather up the necessary species and numbers.

However, like in Peru, there are native people living in various Dendrobatid-rich areas that are on the "regular route" made by various European collectors, traders, and smugglers. I've heard various accounts from folks who have visited certain areas and see the small boxes next to people's homes full of frogs, these people waiting for when the Europeans are going to come by next and collect them for export back to Europe. And I assume the motivation for these folks is money as well: if you can purcahse _E. silverstonei_ from locals at $5/each and then resell them for hundreds of dollars back home, or even more from potential buyers chomping at the bit in the states...the potential amount of money one could make is quite substantial.


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## Philsuma

jubjub47 said:


> I'm in now way in favor of passing the buck, but lets be serious. If the proper species is in front of the agent with the proper paperwork accompanying it.....
> 
> Like I said earlier, we the hobbyist can't identify many pumilio on looks so how can they be expected to.
> 
> The problem lies with the importer and more importantly to the exporter. I don't know exactly how the whole process works, but if the importer is requesting one thing and is told from the collectors that's what it is I don't see how they can be held accountable. Seems like if you want to have it done right and know it's right you have to do what Understory has done and I just don't see that happening.


I agree. I'm just trying to be conclusive and examine the whole senario.

Up until a few months ago....I had no idea about escudo being a protected reserve. I doubt too many hobbyists could even locate it on a map. That is no excuse though.

The next excuse is going to be..."Well....um.....the importer had them advertised on his website, so how can I possibly be held responsible for contributing to anything bad" ?


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## Ed

During the inspection, the CITES paperwork list O. pumilio, the inspector pulls out a guide and runs down the key (assuming that he hasn't seen pumilio before) and it keys out as pumilio so it gets the pass. If there was a second key that then indicated that these morphological characteristics are currently only known to be from a reserve or from a country that prohibits export then a flag would get raised for a closer evaluation and possible seizure, refusal of importation and charges. 

One has to keep in mind that they aren't just inspecting things imported for the pet trade and have to recognize all those species, but the same agent in the same day also are probably inspecting leathers, furs, feathers, teeth, ivory, and all other processed animalwildlife products that are within thier jurisdiction. 
So the fact that they don't recognize all of the potential implications of one species of amphibian within the huge group of things that they have to inspect isn't surprising. 

People should also remember that simply because it got a pass by USF&W does not mean that those animals are legal. If on review, it is shown that they came in under fale paperwork, those animals would then fall under the Lacey act.


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## Julio

Ed i have one of those CITES book that i bought from Phil, its good reference for us who know what the frogs are, but like you said, they dont' really know all the facts and it does not state that in the book either


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## Ed

Hi Julio,

its one of those ever evolving reference problems. At some point I wouldn't be surprised if they started using the individual recognition software they use on people on the animals..... 

Ed


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## Julio

on top of that, its all drawings too, they shoudl have a picture book for better identification


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## DizzyD

wow
Great topic, a little ugly here and there, but great topic. I really wish I knew more.

My brother currently works in Newark Airport checking passports and such (the young man can talk the doors off a barn, he has to have met someone). Maybe he would have some info or at least a contact or two to help w/ the discussion, information and misinformation (I'm not educated enough to know which is which; I'm simply trusting those experienced froggers from the board that have earned my trust). Maybe he knows nothing and is simply doing his job day in and day out attempting to keep those that don't belong here from being or staying here. It's a long shot, but I'll ask and report back. 

Yes, there will always be people who DESIRE and "NEED" the rarest of the rare. There will always be people who will go to any length to have that illegal/legal something or other b/c no-one else does.

In my mind, we all have to fight the good fight and continue to try and preserve it all; not attack each other. If I'm not mistaken, we were all lured in by how amazing these creatures and their natural habitats are (reguardless of country). And, sadly as we educated ourselves about their origin we've found that some are dissappearing in their natural habitats faster than others (smuggling, deforestation, environmental issues). 

My new neighbor's son saw my tanks for the first time this past weekend, and the young man couldn't grasp that people wanted to make a buck and didn't care what happened to the animals and their habitats long term. All I could do was ask his parents' permission and send him some links to websites, tell him to read up, voice his opinion, and recruit some of his buddies to fight the good fight. 

So, why don't we stop the bickering about this and that. AND TRY TO GET THINGS ACCOMPLISHED. 
Or maybe I'll just go back to doing what I normally do. Keep my fingers off the keyboard and just read to learn something new. 
Good luck to us all we're going to need it.


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## skylsdale

DizzyD said:


> My new neighbor's son saw my tanks for the first time this past weekend, and the young man couldn't grasp that people wanted to make a buck and didn't care what happened to the animals and their habitats long term.


As I said above, it's not always that simple: what about the people who care about what happens to the animals and their habitats longterm...yet still by questionable frogs? Yes, there is a dichotomy there, but I think it's one that exists. I think we have a tendency to say "They are selfish and greedy and bad and they don't care about the frogs." I don't think it's that blatant or clear cut at all.



> All I could do was ask his parents' permission and send him some links to websites, tell him to read up, voice his opinion, and recruit some of his buddies to fight the good fight.


I agree with you here, so don't take it as me arguing: but what does that "good fight" actually look like? Voicing opinions in minimally effective--how many people have voiced their opinions about this issue time and time and time again on this issue and on this forum? What specific things can we point to and say, "That right there...that was solved because I shared my opinion on the issue"?

I think this is the problem: we don't actually KNOW what it looks like. We have some ideas, but they are more often than not left on the cutting room floor, casualties of online arguments and soap box diatribes. So if we're going to encourage people to fight the good fight (which I encourage), we should at least take a serious look and try to exercise what that might look like.

I came to this hobby after reefkeeping for a number of years. I became disillusioned by that hobby and it's various banners of "conservation" that many would wave about all the "progress" that was being made in fish and coral collection. But what I realized after a while was that these so-called conservation efforts weren't actually a benefit for wild reefs and fish populations...they were just slightly minimizing the negative impacts the hobby was having on them. That's not conservation, that's just an attempt at impact mitigation.

I think a relevant question is: "What if the actions and habits of the hobby provide a _net benefit_ for wild amphibian populations?" What if we acted in such a way that what we did, what we kept, and what we gave didn't just minimize our negative impact on wild amphibian populations...but actually provided a net benefit for them?

Now THAT, I think, would be a good fight. And when we start determining what that would look like and then begin implementing it...well, I think we will finally be accomplishing what many of us have been talking about for quite a while now.


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## Roadrunner

My idea was to model after hunting and fishing. Automatically 11%(I think) of everything you buy(bait, bullets, camo etc.) all goes back into wildlife management and conservation. I fought for that in the classifieds. There`s just no way to implement it. I think you need a gov`t for that.
Mark is protecting habitat in Peru and I do everything I can to help that. There were the collections/auctions at the frog shows for conservation efforts which a lot of people have donated to. Mark also supports the CRARC w/ his research. There are efforts they just have to be supported instead of people always looking for the cheapest frogs or the first because those frogs will always be cheaper and first if they came from smuggling ops and not thru the main channels. 



skylsdale said:


> As I said above, it's not always that simple: what about the people who care about what happens to the animals and their habitats longterm...yet still by questionable frogs? Yes, there is a dichotomy there, but I think it's one that exists. I think we have a tendency to say "They are selfish and greedy and bad and they don't care about the frogs." I don't think it's that blatant or clear cut at all.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you here, so don't take it as me arguing: but what does that "good fight" actually look like? Voicing opinions in minimally effective--how many people have voiced their opinions about this issue time and time and time again on this issue and on this forum? What specific things can we point to and say, "That right there...that was solved because I shared my opinion on the issue"?
> 
> I think this is the problem: we don't actually KNOW what it looks like. We have some ideas, but they are more often than not left on the cutting room floor, casualties of online arguments and soap box diatribes. So if we're going to encourage people to fight the good fight (which I encourage), we should at least take a serious look and try to exercise what that might look like.
> 
> I came to this hobby after reefkeeping for a number of years. I became disillusioned by that hobby and it's various banners of "conservation" that many would wave about all the "progress" that was being made in fish and coral collection. But what I realized after a while was that these so-called conservation efforts weren't actually a benefit for wild reefs and fish populations...they were just slightly minimizing the negative impacts the hobby was having on them. That's not conservation, that's just an attempt at impact mitigation.
> 
> I think a relevant question is: "What if the actions and habits of the hobby provide a _net benefit_ for wild amphibian populations?" What if we acted in such a way that what we did, what we kept, and what we gave didn't just minimize our negative impact on wild amphibian populations...but actually provided a net benefit for them?
> 
> Now THAT, I think, would be a good fight. And when we start determining what that would look like and then begin implementing it...well, I think we will finally be accomplishing what many of us have been talking about for quite a while now.


----------



## 013

Hi Fred, 

Nice to see you here (too). It's funny to read that the man behind Ben's Jungle was arrested at the last frog day. I'm not at all surprised. He has offered me said species on several occassions. Without me asking for them. Two years back i emailed the organization that this person was offering illegal frogs at their own Frog Day. Nothing was done. I'm happy he's now finally caught, but they should have taken action against him earlier. 

I wholeheartedly agree with your point: it's virtually impossible for Lehmanni and Histrionicus that are being sold in Europe or the US to be the legal off-spring of frogs imported in the 90s. Keeping frogs was in its infancy back then, the frogs imported were in terrible condition. So it seems very very unlikely that they produced off-spring in the quantities that are now being offered.
Please don't yourself be fooled. 

Sure, i can relate to the appeal of these amazing looking frogs. But let's just take a second and think of the repercussions buying them has on the dwindling population in the wild. Do we WANT to give the government and animal-rights activists to give them a reason to ban this hobby? 
So let's count to 10 when these frogs are being offered and wait untill Fred manages to start his farm.


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## ChrisK

Sounds good. fred, can I be the first person to be on your wait list?


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## FrogNick

013 said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> Nice to see you here (too). It's funny to read that the man behind Ben's Jungle was arrested at the last frog day. I'm not at all surprised. He has offered me said species on several occassions. Without me asking for them. Two years back i emailed the organization that this person was offering illegal frogs at their own Frog Day. Nothing was done. I'm happy he's now finally caught, but they should have taken action against him earlier.


Ben is still dealing so why hasn't anything been done?

I presume buyers of these frogs would be able to tell if they are WC as they would still be poisons?


----------



## Ed

013 said:


> Hi Fred,
> 
> I wholeheartedly agree with your point: it's virtually impossible for Lehmanni and Histrionicus that are being sold in Europe or the US to be the legal off-spring of frogs imported in the 90s. Keeping frogs was in its infancy back then, the frogs imported were in terrible condition. So it seems very very unlikely that they produced off-spring in the quantities that are now being offered.
> Please don't yourself be fooled.


I don't think that anyone has claimed that the frogs imported in the old days are producing all of the offspring that are floating around today. We are claiming that they are producing some offspring. We are also refuting the claim that there are no legal animals ever imported, that animals of those species imported never survived or if they did survive never produced offspring beyond F2. 

Ed


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## fred

It's very good to see that people do care here!!
I was getting a little disappointed first, but now i see that there are really a lot of serieus, good willing people overthere, great!

Offcourse it is a complex subject, and not so easy to deal with.
The frogclub in Holland (DN) also started a battle some years ago, and it does pay off.
Problem is that mainly in Germany there are big smugglers who can work free and open; the government takes no action.
It is very clear who are the smugglers, but the Dutch government can't do nothing in Germany.

Sure, Ben Jungle is been caught in Holland, and there will be a continuation about it probably, but that won't be enough to stop them, and besides; he is not the only one.
It is a mud pit overthere; because the authorities take no action it gets a total anarchy on this point.
Smuggling pays off there, so the amount of smugglers grows.

Probably the only way that can help will be an international pressure on the German government to fulfill there duty.

When letters from different organizations wil go to the authorities in Germany they must react.
People from the Dutch DN allready wrote letters, but it doesn't have an impact.
It needs to be done international, so it will catch their attention and shows how deep this rabbit hole is.
And it is a international matter.

Offcourse there are also smugglers in other country's, for example Denmark but for as far as we know is Germany number one.

For the record i want to say that this doesn't mean that all Germans are dealing or keeping illegal frogs....there are a lot of very serious and skilled hobbyists overthere who can be an example for many others.


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## gluedl

> Yes, there will always be people who DESIRE and "NEED" the rarest of the rare. There will always be people who will go to any length to have that illegal/legal something or other b/c no-one else does.


I have been offered these frogs on various occasions, if you have the bucks it's frightingly easy to obtain those (except O. lehmani which I have never seen offered, yet I have seen it being kept as a pet on webpages).

... in the end the human ego is our worst enemy ...


gluedl


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## FrogNick

gluedl said:


> I have been offered these frogs on various occasions, if you have the bucks it's frightingly easy to obtain those (except O. lehmani which I have never seen offered, yet I have seen it being kept as a pet on webpages).
> 
> ... in the end the human ego is our worst enemy ...
> 
> 
> gluedl


Ben's Jungle had a pair of O. lehman for about 800E last year I was told.


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## Web Wheeler

Fred,

As I understand things, habitat destruction is the number one factor driving frogs to extinction. Down the list is invasive species, and further down the list is collection for the pet trade.

Can you shed some light on how the above factors are affecting frogs in Columbia?

Also, what do you think about the principle, "Conservation through Commercialization", where conservation is achieved through a realization that natural resources have economic value and that value must be protected; and how that principle may be used to benefit frogs in Columbia?


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## skylsdale

frogfarm said:


> My idea was to model after hunting and fishing. Automatically 11%(I think) of everything you buy(bait, bullets, camo etc.) all goes back into wildlife management and conservation. I fought for that in the classifieds. There`s just no way to implement it. I think you need a gov`t for that.
> Mark is protecting habitat in Peru and I do everything I can to help that. There were the collections/auctions at the frog shows for conservation efforts which a lot of people have donated to. Mark also supports the CRARC w/ his research. There are efforts they just have to be supported instead of people always looking for the cheapest frogs or the first because those frogs will always be cheaper and first if they came from smuggling ops and not thru the main channels.


But supporting these efforts in such a way is only mitigating the negative impact if we continue with the system as-is by creating such a huge vacuum of demand, purchasing every new frog as soon as we can get our hands on it, etc. Especially given the relatively small size of the hobby--we would need MUCH larger percentages of frog sales going toward actual conservation programs and practices to have much, if any, sort of real impact. Purchasing small pockets of rainforest here and there won't do much if we voraciously continue to fuel the extraction of so many frogs. 

For some reason we expect things to change while still supporting the very system that is creating the problem.

I want to believe that it won't take a government to bring about this change...that we don't need to rely on a top-down regulation. After all, look how well that's currently working--the purpose of this whole thread was that people are undermining the regulations currently in place and selling/buying illegal frogs anyway! I think actual change needs to be a more grassroots effort, and that it has to be a bottom-up force that takes place within the actual community, otherwise it will never be part of the fabric of that community.


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## sbreland

If this statement is true then perhaps you should put this government entity in charge or drug trafficking investigation because the current "authorities" don't seem to be getting it taken care of. Honestly, I doubt they are quite as thorough and serious as you say because a little greasing of the palm goes a long way so if you think the "authorities" are not at least aware (intimately) of what's going on I'd be surprised.


fred said:


> Ed, i can keep on repeating; there has been no other exports from Colombia.
> The authorities here are very strickt and accurate.
> You have to go through a big pack of papers and problems to export or do anything here.
> Only to pickup a simple post-packedge you need to fill a lot of forms with fingerprints and everything.
> 
> The department of nature protection where they also give out the licenses, is a very modern well organized organization that works very accurate, they have stored all the information very well; if they didn't give export licenses, you can believe it.
> These people take their work and nature protection very seriously.


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## fred

Yes offcourse is habitat destruction a big problem; without a habitat there is no place to live for the animals.
This is going on everywhere in the world, however, also from protected area's frogs are being smuggled..the smugglers take no interest in where or how they get the frogs, and don't hesitate to take the last ones.

Look for example at the lehmanni; the habitat is for the biggest part gone, but still the frogs could have survived on the spots where they still where livin', and probably expand from there again, if they would be left alone..

I think the smuggling problem is very underestimated; think world-wide how many hobbyists want to keep rare frogs and if they can't buy them legal, they will buy them illegal if the system allows it.

In my opinion there must be a good awareness of what is going on, no denial, and there must be a good control about what people keep.
A social controle system (indeed a community-matter), and a bookkeeping as an obligation.
Offcourse there will allways be people who keep illegal frogs, but the numbers can seriously be brought down with a good system.

Breeding farms can provide in frogs and conservation, working together with authorities and researchers.

When there are frogs being offered, totally legal with papers, bred in farms, why should people then still take the risks to buy illegal frogs?
Offcourse first the rules must be sharpened and there must be taken action against the smugglers.

About drugs, that is something i'm not familiar with and take no interest in, but the similarity i do see, is that also this 'product' is there because people ask for it and buy it, and those people who buy it are not living in the country's where it is produced....same kind of story like the illegal frogs, with this difference that drugs are being produced and frogs are getting wiped-out.


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## DCreptiles

fred said:


> Yes offcourse is habitat destruction a big problem; without a habitat there is no place to live for the animals.
> This is going on everywhere in the world, however, also from protected area's frogs are being smuggled..the smugglers take no interest in where or how they get the frogs, and don't hesitate to take the last ones.
> 
> Look for example at the lehmanni; the habitat is for the biggest part gone, but still the frogs could have survived on the spots where they still where livin', and probably expand from there again, if they would be left alone..
> 
> I think the smuggling problem is very underestimated; think world-wide how many hobbyists want to keep rare frogs and if they can't buy them legal, they will buy them illegal if the system allows it.
> 
> In my opinion there must be a good awareness of what is going on, no denial, and there must be a good control about what people keep.
> A social controle system (indeed a community-matter), and a bookkeeping as an obligation.
> Offcourse there will allways be people who keep illegal frogs, but the numbers can seriously be brought down with a good system.
> 
> Breeding farms can provide in frogs and conservation, working together with authorities and researchers.
> 
> When there are frogs being offered, totally legal with papers, bred in farms, why should people then still take the risks to buy illegal frogs?
> Offcourse first the rules must be sharpened and there must be taken action against the smugglers.
> 
> About drugs, that is something i'm not familiar with and take no interest in, but the similarity i do see, is that also this 'product' is there because people ask for it and buy it, and those people who buy it are not living in the country's where it is produced....same kind of story like the illegal frogs, with this difference that drugs are being produced and frogs are getting wiped-out.


drugs are killing people off....


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## Web Wheeler

fred said:


> Look for example at the lehmanni; the habitat is for the biggest part gone, but still the frogs could have survived on the spots where they still where livin', and probably expand from there again, if they would be left alone..


History shows this is not likely to happen, and those who don't learn from history are forever doomed to repeat it.



fred said:


> I think the smuggling problem is very underestimated; think world-wide how many hobbyists want to keep rare frogs and if they can't buy them legal, they will buy them illegal if the system allows it.


This shows that ignoring a commercial demand is a bad strategy.



fred said:


> In my opinion there must be a good awareness of what is going on, no denial, and there must be a good control about what people keep.
> A social controle system (indeed a community-matter), and a bookkeeping as an obligation.
> Offcourse there will allways be people who keep illegal frogs, but the numbers can seriously be brought down with a good system.


In my opinion, "Conservation through Commercialization" is a good system. The recovery of the American Alligator, which was brought back from the brink of extinction through commercial breeding, is a shining example of this approach.



fred said:


> Breeding farms can provide in frogs and conservation, working together with authorities and researchers.


Agreed!



fred said:


> When there are frogs being offered, totally legal with papers, bred in farms, why should people then still take the risks to buy illegal frogs?


The supply must be able to meet the demand.



fred said:


> Offcourse first the rules must be sharpened and there must be taken action against the smugglers.


Agreed, but commercialization should begin immediately.



fred said:


> About drugs, that is something i'm not familiar with and take no interest in, but the similarity i do see, is that also this 'product' is there because people ask for it and buy it, and those people who buy it are not living in the country's where it is produced....same kind of story like the illegal frogs, with this difference that drugs are being produced and frogs are getting wiped-out.


Hire the drug dealers to breed frogs for huge, legal commercial profits! Anyone who can live in the jungle, grow crops to produce drugs, harvest and refine the crops to make the drugs and then export said drugs to other countries would likely be a good frog breeder.


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## poimandres

I've been quietly reading this thread and aside from some of the bickering have seen many good points and have learned a ton. The facts are overwhelming, daunting, and disappointing...what has happened to those thousands upon thousands of frog imports? For the most part and unfortunately dead, I presume. 



skylsdale said:


> ...
> So if we're going to encourage people to fight the good fight (which I encourage), we should at least take a serious look and try to exercise what that might look like.
> ...
> I think a relevant question is: "What if the actions and habits of the hobby provide a _net benefit_ for wild amphibian populations?" What if we acted in such a way that what we did, what we kept, and what we gave didn't just minimize our negative impact on wild amphibian populations...but actually provided a net benefit for them?
> 
> Now THAT, I think, would be a good fight. And when we start determining what that would look like and then begin implementing it...well, I think we will finally be accomplishing what many of us have been talking about for quite a while now.


Ron makes some extremely valid points in this post . Particularly the distinction between impact mitigation and true conservation. I for one simply do not know enough about this and would like to see more discussion moving in this direction. How can we better the hobby and more importantly improve conservation efforts as hobbyist? Yes we can all write checks to conservation organizations, but i believe information,proper record keeping, and especially education can go even further. 

I for one have experienced this first hand, not with frogs but with archaeological artifacts. I worked in Bolivia and Peru for 4 years and along with others fought hard to minimize the number of artifacts that were surfacing in the black market. Our weapon of choice? Education, from the bottom up. We went out the communities themselves -the Aymara and Quechua campesinos and informed them how an artifact by itself (without detailed record of the context in which is was found) is simply a pretty item with little to no historical significance. We educated them about how they could preserve and propagate their own cultural history by ensuring that such artifacts were properly documented. When they learned that they were selling out their own history and that of their ancestors and their land, things quickly changed. Trust me it is a huge anglo-centric generalization when we dismiss the locals ability to value to their own cutlural/natural heritage in lieu of money. Make them question their own motives and we will see change. We saw it with archaeological artifacts coming out of Peru and Bolivia, no reason to suspect that the same wont happen with frogs.

Returning to frogs and the issue at hand, clearly many errors have been made - whether conscious or not. However, pointing fingers, labeling individuals as "bad people" or frogs as "illegal" and simply outlining those errors is NOT enough. We need to have more discussion on how to precisely remedy these situation for future improvement. What are some of the solutions proposed? I turn this question to those of you with years and decades of experience...yes, we have a problem, but what steps do we take to solve this problem? Blanket statements and cliches are not enough here, we need a detailed and direct vision. 

Another topic of discussion I would like to see is - How can the current captive frog populations of questionable origin now be properly managed? These frogs are here, do we just turn a blind eye to them or do we work together to properly document them and their future offspring. Posts about irresponsible ownership and importation/exportation of such frogs will only encourage the owners to hide and further divide the community. Perhaps we need to agree as a community to take steps together, we are all at fault - from the new comers who buy frogs without knowing their precise origins to the experienced hobbyists who keep quiet just to avoid confrontation. We must TRUST each other, have faith in the good intentions of or our members so that we can bring data and information to the table. Unfortunately, FEAR of retribution and ostracization from the frogger community forces many to keep quiet. Perhaps as a community we need to reassure each other that this is not about headhunting the (for the most part) well intentioned hobbyists, but about educating everyone from the veteran frogger to the ten year old keeping wild caught mixed morphs in a 10 gallon to the campesino gathering frogs in a coke bottle. 

I truly believe that we need transparency, we need to see and monitor these frogs in captivity and encourage open discussion and debate about them. If you are the owner of an import (recent or not) of questionable origin and you find it to be littered with parasites, or Chytrid, or other disease, POST about it, let others who may have made the same mistake know so they can do their best to at least keep these frogs alive. Open conversations, ask questions regarding records and responsible breeding plans, etc. The last thing we want to see are more of those exhorbant numbers of imports seemingly disappearing from the record books. Some die, yes, but perhaps even more disconcerting is that many likely just get mixed in with previous populations without most of us ever knowing. Information and large databases are the weapons to fight the good fight. Lets stop basking in the ills of the past and become proactive by accumulating information and unifying our community. 

Anyway, I am beginning to nonsensically rant. But I just want to stress that we need to see more ideas surface regarding SOLUTIONS if we hope to see a change for the better.


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## ChrisK

OK it's just a lot of dead horse beating now, fred doesn't believe any legal exports other than bulleyes in the 1980s occured, that's fine, no reason to try to convince him anymore, the direction this should go in now is what can be done going forward, right?

As long as there's a demand and no legal way to satisfy the demand, there will be smuggling (just like with other "items"). Complaining about who owns what on a couple of online forums won't change that much, there could be 500 people in Germany and France who don't belong to any forums, who want lehmanni and will be supplied (just as an example).

The real steps would probably start out with habitat protection and reconstruction, since the habitat for lehmanni is looking bleak, along with some type of breeding program/farming within that habitat, with people physically involved. Once that happens a lot of the smuggling will probably stop, since there will be people on site working with the frogs, as well as them being able to be offered for sale.

Since you're there fred, is any of this going on, and if not, why not?


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## Roadrunner

I think you read that wrong Ron. The tens of thousands of $`s of frogs posted here weekly would definatley go a ways to preserve tracts of habitat and PAYING LOCALS to keep people from collecting frogs or cutting down trees. I don`t know if you`ve ever added up the #`s on what`s posted here weekly. % from all plant sales and viv purchases? I just don`t think you`ve added things up.
And the #`s of frogs needed for the US hobby could be bred right here in the US(and canada). The demand could be filled if people became patient and didn`t jump on the newest and cheapest frogs. It`s not the demand for frogs that`s creating the problem it`s the niavity or uncaring of where the frogs are coming from. It`s people having to keep their mouth shut because no one can say anything about anyone openly. How many people are working on breeding auratus at the moment? It`s like we have no more new people in the hobby who start out w/ breeding auratus anymore. No wonder they`re the most smuggled frog.
The gov`t comment was facetious as they`d never impose a 10% charge for frog conservation. I was saying I tried w/ the "gov`t" here to try and get a mandatory donation for sales but it didn`t work.


skylsdale said:


> But supporting these efforts in such a way is only mitigating the negative impact if we continue with the system as-is by creating such a huge vacuum of demand, purchasing every new frog as soon as we can get our hands on it, etc. Especially given the relatively small size of the hobby--we would need MUCH larger percentages of frog sales going toward actual conservation programs and practices to have much, if any, sort of real impact. Purchasing small pockets of rainforest here and there won't do much if we voraciously continue to fuel the extraction of so many frogs.
> 
> For some reason we expect things to change while still supporting the very system that is creating the problem.
> 
> I want to believe that it won't take a government to bring about this change...that we don't need to rely on a top-down regulation. After all, look how well that's currently working--the purpose of this whole thread was that people are undermining the regulations currently in place and selling/buying illegal frogs anyway! I think actual change needs to be a more grassroots effort, and that it has to be a bottom-up force that takes place within the actual community, otherwise it will never be part of the fabric of that community.


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## Philsuma

The tools to move the hobby foward and combat smuggling:

These are items we, as a hobby, simply MUST have on had in order to be considered professional.

Every plan starts with a map....then data....then facts:

1. Develope a comprehensive *listing of all Dendrobatid Taxa* including the current accepted nomenclature, scientific as well as common or even "hobby" names. This is the first logical step so we know what species are out there. All the points below flow from this first list.

2. Divide that list into all source countries, i.e all Nicaraguan dart frog species (just a couple) , other species that naturally occur in 2 or more different countries would be repeated.

3. FURTHER list all known morphs by country. There are many people in the hobby that have no idea that the "blue jeans" _pumilio _morph is located in Costa Rica and not Panama and as such - cannot be legally exported.

4. Develope a map of approximate ranges. We don't need to be scientific and exact here either. For those morphs that are arguable rare and in immediate danger of extirpation - we can reserve a little latitide and agree to not list them on a map.

With these lists and a decent range map.....we are now "armed" with irrefutable knowledge and can start tactical game planning.

5. Make a colour guide to *all* the dendrobatid morphs. THIS has actually be done already by Andrew for the Histo, Sylva and Lehmanni and it's fantastic (I have it on my wall, it's just that spectacular).

6. List the CITES status and legality by country of ALL species. This one may prove to be the hardest task - obviously, if you take a look at all the experienced hobbyists that are perplexed.

7. List the approximate (year would be good, year + season is better) year of entry of species into the U.S dart frog hobby and how they came to be brought it. a_zureus_, _Dendrobates_ _castaneoticus..._ect..ect - The HISTORY of the hobby.

some thoughts....


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## zBrinks

Phil, ASN is working on such a thing on a per species basis - their TMPs. If you're interested, you should get involved. Shoot me a pm with your email address, and I'll send you an example.


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## fred

Hi web wheeler,

You can find many animals living in small 'left over' habitats, where they do survive, often these are area's that are not so easy to cultivate like very steep slopes.
Also many animals can adjust and move to surrounding area's; they just have to be left alone.
Offcourse protecting and expanding the area would be better.

Hi Chris,

You said: 'Complaining about who owns what on a couple of online forums won't change that much'

I'm not complaining, i think inform people and talking on a forum is actually a good way to reach many people; we are talking about it now? or aren't we?
But i can understand your irritation, knowing you are one of the people who recently bought redhead histrionicus, and coincidental just begin of this year there are many 'red heads' available from illegal imports again. 
I understand you don't feel comfortable with that.
By the way; why don't you answer the question if the country where you got them from was Germany.
I don't accuse you from anything, it is just that all information can help, and i think you are also concerned about where you're frogs are coming from?

Like you said; habitat protection is very important, we know that all.
Like I also said before; the smugglers don't care if the habitat is protected; the frogs are allready protected, they catch them anyway..
As long as people can't control themselves and keep on buying them.

Like i said before; here in Colombia are people working on conservation projects, studies, habitat-protection, etc.

I was a few times in the area where the 'redhead' histrionicus lives, and i was planning to go and have a look overthere again, but allmost don't have the courage to go there and see what i find, or more not wil find..

I just received a very disturbing email from a friend in Europe:

There are rumors that in a few weeks in Germany they again expect a new 'import' of frogs from Colombia, these wil be again 'redheads' and other histrionica morphs, and also ranitomeya species....

These rumors are mostly correct.


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## ESweet

I have not gone through all 20 pages of this thread, so I am not sure if someone posted this, but according to CITES data, almost 3000 non-species-specific Dendrobates frogs were exported with CITES information in 1993. In 1994, 30 lehmanni and 11 histronicus also were exported.. _According to CITES_, so I assume this was all legal

I should also note that this was all to the United States


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## thedude

fred said:


> I just received a very disturbing email from a friend in Europe:
> 
> There are rumors that in a few weeks in Germany they again expect a new 'import' of frogs from Colombia, these wil be again 'redheads' and other histrionica morphs, and also ranitomeya species....
> 
> These rumors are mostly correct.


fred,
if they are coming in a couple of weeks that means they plan to go down and collect them. so if you know what they are collecting, cant you have the authorities or a conservation group go to those populations and patrol? catch them in the act. stop them and throw them in jail where they belong.



DCreptiles,
drugs are killing people off, but thats because they are doing drugs. in other words, they are doing it to themselves. what exactly are the frogs doing to be killed? nothing.


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## ChrisK

fred said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> You said: 'Complaining about who owns what on a couple of online forums won't change that much'
> 
> I'm not complaining, i think inform people and talking on a forum is actually a good way to reach many people; we are talking about it now? or aren't we?
> But i can understand your irritation, knowing you are one of the people who recently bought redhead histrionicus, and coincidental just begin of this year there are many 'red heads' available from illegal imports again.
> I understand you don't feel comfortable with that.
> By the way; why don't you answer the question if the country where you got them from was Germany.
> I don't accuse you from anything, it is just that all information can help, and i think you are also concerned about where you're frogs are coming from?
> 
> Like you said; habitat protection is very important, we know that all.
> Like I also said before; the smugglers don't care if the habitat is protected; the frogs are allready protected, they catch them anyway..
> As long as people can't control themselves and keep on buying them.
> 
> Like i said before; here in Colombia are people working on conservation projects, studies, habitat-protection, etc.


My irritation is something other than the fact that I own some legal frogs, trust me, and if you don't know of any EU breeders that work with egg feeders for many years, then you're under-informed.
I said that if the actions I mentioned were going on, then the smugglers would be more likely to stay away, not just simply "protected", which is only a legal term in that manner. 
Trying to stop the buying will not work - just like blaming drug addicts for the drug smugglers doing the smuggling is a lame excuse and definitely not a solution.
So how about telling us about some of the projects, studies, habitat protection, etc, and how it's helping to restock populations and stop smuggling?


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## thedude

ChrisK said:


> I said that if the actions I mentioned were going on, then the smugglers would be more likely to stay away, not just simply "protected", which is only a legal term in that manner.


he doesnt just mean protected legally, but in protected reserves and parks. thats why just habitat protection wont do the trick.


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## ChrisK

thedude said:


> he doesnt just mean protected legally, but in protected reserves and parks. thats why just habitat protection wont do the trick.


That's also what I thought he meant, and I didn't mention any "reserves" or "parks" in my example


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## skylsdale

frogfarm said:


> I think you read that wrong Ron. The tens of thousands of $`s of frogs posted here weekly would definatley go a ways to preserve tracts of habitat and PAYING LOCALS to keep people from collecting frogs or cutting down trees. I don`t know if you`ve ever added up the #`s on what`s posted here weekly. % from all plant sales and viv purchases? I just don`t think you`ve added things up.


I'll be honest and admit that I haven't added things up, solely because I rarely visit the classifieds here on DB (or any, for that matter), so I am unaware in that regard as to the potential dollar amount we're dealing with. But I do think you are right. However (and I'm not arguing here, just filling in what you pointed out), although that money could actually do some real good, especially in preserving tracks of land and PAYING LOCALS (I very much agree with this)...that system, for the most part, isn't in place. Not to say it's impossible, but I don't think there's much of a framework for it in the hobby yet. However, it's something we've been discussing in a TWI project and hope gains some traction.



> And the #`s of frogs needed for the US hobby could be bred right here in the US(and canada). The demand could be filled if people became patient and didn`t jump on the newest and cheapest frogs.


Abso-freaking-lutely! I couldn't agree with you more on this point.



> It`s not the demand for frogs that`s creating the problem it`s the niavity or uncaring of where the frogs are coming from. It`s people having to keep their mouth shut because no one can say anything about anyone openly. How many people are working on breeding auratus at the moment?


I agree. I tried to actually focus on auratus for a while...and I must admit, they have proved to be a surprisingly challenging breeder for me. I think the "novice" label we slap on them is misleading. I think the same goes for other frogs we recommend to beginners, including tinctorius: keeping them alive is fairly easy, but breeding them can actually be quite difficult...and on top of that, raising offspring that match the size and overall health of the originally WC parents is even MORE difficult.

I think we need to get rid of the whole elitist mentality and bracketing of various frogs and morphs. They're all incredible species to work with, each having their own unique challenges. It goes back to the old hobby adage: keep what you like. Don't build a collection for investment or reputation or attention.


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## skylsdale

zBrinks said:


> Phil, ASN is working on such a thing on a per species basis - their TMPs.


Exactly. The possibilities for these are just about endless and because we make them open access for anyone to use, they have the potential of becoming a great tool, not just for captive care and husbandry, but for responsible longterm captive management. The more folks who sign on to put together a TMP, the easier the work is in getting it done. It's literally just a matter of folks stepping up to compile and organize the info.


----------



## Ed

I had to delete most of the references and cut this post into two as I keep getting a database error when I try to post. If someone wants the rest of the posts I can send them to them. First part



Web Wheeler said:


> In my opinion, "Conservation through Commercialization" is a good system. The recovery of the American Alligator, which was brought back from the brink of extinction through commercial breeding, is a shining example of this approach.


This program worked in part because of the adaptability of the American Alligator and in part due to the idea that there were no down sides to releasing head started animals into the wild particularly those that have been housed/reared in close proximity to non-native species. This has subsequently been shown to be a problem in other species with not only messing up the genetics of the wild populations and potentially putting them at greater risk of extinction but the introduction and translocation of parasites and pathogens to populations and areas where the disease did not exist before along with high mortality and possible locality extinctions. As a further complication it has been shown that feeder insects can become infected with novel pathogens (iridoviruses) which can then infect other hosts (as strains of iridovirus can infect reptiles, fish, amphibians and invertebrates causing high mortality in all of the above genera).


----------



## Ed

second part 

Now this isn't to say that there cannot be a conservation program that assists in making these species available. In oophagous frogs one of the main problems is that the parents have to rear the tadpoles. This means that one of the main limiting resources is tadpole deposition sites. Increasing tadpole deposition sites, increases the reproductive resources and allows for a greater population density. If the recruitment needs for the population are known then a sustainable harvesting program could be done for tadpoles that have started to metamorph, allowing the metamorphic process to be completed in captivity and the froglets to be exported once they have some size and growth. This would require significant oversight to prevent not only the harvesting and export of all of the tadpole but the harvesting of tadpoles/froglets from other areas. If handled in this manner, a value is attached to the frogs, as well as the enviroment and this then works as a umbrella program which protect the sympatric plant and animal species. 

There is some good background literature on manipulating pumilio populations in this manner but it wouldn't let me post the links to it.. 


Ed


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## thedude

ChrisK said:


> That's also what I thought he meant, and I didn't mention any "reserves" or "parks" in my example


well if you know he meant that frogs are smuggled out of parks and reserves then why are you still pushing for the topic of habitat protection? obviously just protecting an area and having some scientists working in it isnt going to cut it.


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## ChrisK

Ed said:


> second part
> 
> Now this isn't to say that there cannot be a conservation program that assists in making these species available. In oophagous frogs one of the main problems is that the parents have to rear the tadpoles. This means that one of the main limiting resources is tadpole deposition sites. Increasing tadpole deposition sites, increases the reproductive resources and allows for a greater population density. If the recruitment needs for the population are known then a sustainable harvesting program could be done for tadpoles that have started to metamorph, allowing the metamorphic process to be completed in captivity and the froglets to be exported once they have some size and growth. This would require significant oversight to prevent not only the harvesting and export of all of the tadpole but the harvesting of tadpoles/froglets from other areas. If handled in this manner, a value is attached to the frogs, as well as the enviroment and this then works as a umbrella program which protect the sympatric plant and animal species.
> 
> There is some good background literature on manipulating pumilio populations in this manner but it wouldn't let me post the links to it..
> 
> 
> Ed


Ed just did a great job in describing part of the farming/repopulation program I was talking about, which would in my opinion also help in keeping smugglers out of the area they would be working in if people were on site doing this. Much different than a park - not to mention people knowing they could legally get frogs in good condition would reduce the need even more for smuggling.


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## Web Wheeler

Ed said:


> Now this isn't to say that there cannot be a conservation program that assists in making these species available. In oophagous frogs one of the main problems is that the parents have to rear the tadpoles. This means that one of the main limiting resources is tadpole deposition sites. Increasing tadpole deposition sites, increases the reproductive resources and allows for a greater population density. If the recruitment needs for the population are known then a sustainable harvesting program could be done for tadpoles that have started to metamorph, allowing the metamorphic process to be completed in captivity and the froglets to be exported once they have some size and growth. This would require significant oversight to prevent not only the harvesting and export of all of the tadpole but the harvesting of tadpoles/froglets from other areas. If handled in this manner, a value is attached to the frogs, as well as the enviroment and this then works as a umbrella program which protect the sympatric plant and animal species.
> 
> There is some good background literature on manipulating pumilio populations in this manner but it wouldn't let me post the links to it..
> 
> 
> Ed


I didn't mean to imply that the same protocol for the commercial breeding of the American Alligator would, or should, be the same for Dart Frogs. But, as you have pointed out, there are strategies, such as increasing deposition sites, that can be used _in situ_ to produce a sustainable commercial harvest. In my opinion, availability of food is another factor that could be manipulated to increase production.


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## DCreptiles

now this is one hell of a thread.. its still civil this many pages down the line and im seeing that people are bringing really kick AZZ ideas to the table such as Phils game plan to re organize everything and Eds post for more dosition sites. but i have to agree with chrisk we cant blaim the people on DB or anywhere else for purchasing frogs that may or may not be smuggled i think that most of the people here ( that are new ) arent very educated on the backround of these frogs and really know whats legal and whats not. i know when i first joined the board if i seen it offered here the last thing on my mind was.. well it wouldnt be offered or allowed here if it wasnt..

we all agree on one thing we love this hobby and the frogs and want to keep them safe but we just have different opinions on whats the best way to do so. if the frogs were readily available from a CB source and a local source i firmly believe people would be more op to purchase their frogs through well know breeders on the board such as our vendors.

would it be possible to get a thread going not for discussion but for updates and info braught to the table by dendroboards finest froggers? maybe this would be a great way to keep people up to date on whats going on in the world of frogs and what countrys are allowing export and where some of the frogs here on the board are comming from.. i know its really up to the hobbyist to do their research and homework.. but if we want to keep our hobby strong maybe some of the more educated people and expierenced froggers can spread some of that knowledge to the newer guys and gals.


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## skylsdale

ChrisK said:


> Ed just did a great job in describing part of the farming/repopulation program I was talking about, which would in my opinion also help in keeping smugglers out of the area they would be working in if people were on site doing this. Much different than a park - not to mention people knowing they could legally get frogs in good condition would reduce the need even more for smuggling.


Your theory is just that: theory. In the real world we have seen that this simply isn't the case...and I doubt that increasing the number of legal farms (or even have REAL farms...not just folks collecting frogs on private property and calling them "farmed") would put much of a dent in the current smuggling problem. 

As Ed mentioned, especially with oophagous species, you need to rely on the parents to raise the juveniles. I'm not sure the collective patience required for that to occur and for properly, sustainably, and legally raised animals to help stem the tide. It still falls on the end purchaser to vote with their dollar.



DCReptiles said:


> but if we want to keep our hobby strong maybe some of the more educated people and expierenced froggers can spread some of that knowledge to the newer guys and gals.


I would say that some of the most educated hobbyists I'm aware of (especially those who are amazingly skilled with egg feeders) have never even registered for an account on DB, so this might be difficult. You might be successful in getting a small sampling of DB members, but you wouldn't necessarily be tapping into the vast hobby at large and the pool of hobbyists who have been keeping frogs for the last couple decades. It would need to be a larger effort, I think.


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## ChrisK

skylsdale said:


> Your theory is just that: theory. In the real world we have seen that this simply isn't the case...and I doubt that increasing the number of legal farms (or even have REAL farms...not just folks collecting frogs on private property and calling them "farmed") would put much of a dent in the current smuggling problem.
> 
> As Ed mentioned, especially with oophagous species, you need to rely on the parents to raise the juveniles. I'm not sure the collective patience required for that to occur and for properly, sustainably, and legally raised animals to help stem the tide. It still falls on the end purchaser to vote with their dollar.


OK, thought Ed was demonstrating what might be a possibly successful effort there. My mistake.


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## sbreland

I'm really surprised that nobody has mentioned this 20 pages in, but "fred", what is you suggestion for all the supposedly "illegal" frogs that you see here on the board? Let's just say they are illegal (which I do NOT think all are BTW)... what do you suggest we do with THOSE frogs?? Kill them? Ignore them? Never speak of them or never attempt to do anything with the offspring that they produce? Bullshit. I'm sorry, but whatever the means the frogs came in they are here now and they have to be managed and maintained and hopefully successfully bred. This will not stop smuggling, but it IS a step in the right direction. I can honestly say that I doubt Chris has/had any inclination that his frogs could be of questionable origin (which i don't think they are...) or he would have not bought them, just as anyone else that has them. People on this board tend to be mostly honest and if someone says it's CB, then you usually believe them. Is it the best policy? Mmmm... maybe not, but that's people's nature and GOOD LUCK ever changing that. So my question to you fred is this... What do you suggest we do with all the histrionicus that ARE in the US right now??? You say they are all illegal, so what do we do with them?

On a side note... I have TREMENDOUS issues with your assertions from the first page where you matter of factly state that there is little or no captive breeding of Histrionicus going on now or in the past. Hmm... I guess Chris is just making it up??? I guess the Histo froglets that I've seen with my own eyes (and the pics of eggs, then tads, then froglets that preceeded them) are a fairy tale and a figment of my imagination?? Did I see the Tooth Fairy?? I abso-freaking-loutely know that's not the case. I KNOW for a fact that there are and have been success stories with these frogs, and YES, many of them ARE descendants of the original LEGAL (yes, I said LEGAL) imports from long ago. You continually use the blanket statement that all histos are illegal... time to show some proof. Ed and others have show records on here of LEGAL exports and you keep disregarding them like that never really happened. Wake up, it happened and YES, some of those frogs (or their descendants) are still around. Period. You make some strong claims and without evidence I think you do your arguement a disservice.

Now, I know I look like I'm coming down on you and maybe I am. Your effort and your desire is admirable but it is honestly a bit off track. Your facts and assertions are not facts and are not completely true. You have great passion and a noble cause but your approach needs to be slightly tweaked... especially insisting that all histos are illegal.


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## sbreland

BTW... you want to know why the people that are long time froggers don't post on here about their successes? Like many pointed out, many don't and have never posted here. The ones that have don't like to talk about it because EVERY new person on the board fills their PM box with BS requests for a list or to get some. People get tired of it. Last, and maybe most important, is that they don't want to be persecuted like is going on here... personally I commend Chris for not being a lot more pissed off than he is... it takes a lot of restraint... more than I have as some here on the board that have been around awhile can attest to, LOL


----------



## Ed

Web Wheeler said:


> I didn't mean to imply that the same protocol for the commercial breeding of the American Alligator would, or should, be the same for Dart Frogs. But, as you have pointed out, there are strategies, such as increasing deposition sites, that can be used _in situ_ to produce a sustainable commercial harvest. In my opinion, availability of food is another factor that could be manipulated to increase production.


That was looked at to some extent and the real limiting resource is egg deposition sites... 

Ed


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## ChrisK

sbreland said:


> BTW... you want to know why the people that are long time froggers don't post on here about their successes? Like many pointed out, many don't and have never posted here. The ones that have don't like to talk about it because EVERY new person on the board fills their PM box with BS requests for a list or to get some. People get tired of it. Last, and maybe most important, is that they don't want to be persecuted like is going on here... personally I commend Chris for not being a lot more pissed off than he is... it takes a lot of restraint... more than I have as some here on the board that have been around awhile can attest to, LOL


Trust me, I get pissed each time I look at this thread, but I edit my responses before I send them, if this was going on in person (which I REALLY doubt it would), my response would probably be a little different. Just kidding........................


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## Ed

skylsdale said:


> As Ed mentioned, especially with oophagous species, you need to rely on the parents to raise the juveniles. I'm not sure the collective patience required for that to occur and for properly, sustainably, and legally raised animals to help stem the tide. It still falls on the end purchaser to vote with their dollar.


If it was accompanied by a much more intensive enforcement program (such as training dogs to sniff for the frogs or more intensive screening of potential smugglers (much like Australia does) then this method would help reduce smuggling and allow for a legal supply line to develop. 

If it was combined with a joint program say between the Columbian goverment and the German Goverment, it would be even more effective particularly if the penalties were increased... 

Ed


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## zBrinks

I would like to commend everyone for keeping it civil. Keep it up


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## Philsuma

I don't know if I mentioned this earlier, but if I didn't, it bears mentioning again, I think.

I recently had the opportunity to acquire 2 _Dendrobates castaneoticus._

I had NO doubt that they were CB as they were froglets. That's an easy one right? CB ! Already in the hobby.....nobody to claim they were adults and smuggled from Germany. Froglets from an experienced breeder who is respected and has no bad record whatsoever. All VERY good things....

I passed and respectfully declined after much consideration and consultation with froggers more senior than me.

I considered a few things:

1. This was a frog that has given the US hobby a veritable black eye. WE were given these animals with conditions that someone violated. I didn't want to be part of that.

2. I like having people over at my house to enjoy my frogroom and the animals under my care. I did not want to have to cover a viv, move a viv or directly explain a certain species to a visitor. I want my involvement in the hobby to be clean and transparent. I would like to think that all the people that visit me come away with a good feeling and I would be proud if they choose to copy everything that I do.

3. There are a few things, mostly with husbandry issues were we all say "Do as I say, not as I do"......I decided, this saying can _never_ pertain to acquiring animals. I have another thread on another forum which directly addresses moral and ethical issues re this hobby.

If I ever acquire Histrionicus, Sylvaticus or any other species that has even the remote perception of illegality, you can bet I'll have paperwork taped to the side of the viv. I will be able to recite the name of the person I got them from to any or all who ask and I won't get upset about it. It's the price to be paid for the "higher tier" of the hobby and I'm willing to go that extra mile and pay my dues.

Chris has an even higher obligation now that he is faced with the possiblity of potential offspring. Who to distribute them to. If he decides to only sell them for the highest prices - most likely to newer hobbyists, he risks being thought of as money grubbing bastard who thumbs his nose at the hobby.

Like anything else in life, there are moral considerations at every turn...

unless.

You are someone that just doesn't give a Fu*k. ...and there are some of those people here amongst us as well but I personally hope....not many.


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## fred

Hi Adam,

I agree with you, and for a fact, there are people watching and looking out for smugglers, but it is not easy.
Many collectors are people from the area who receive money for the frogs, and they are not so easy to track down or get caught in the act.

Hi Ed, 

Providing extra possibility's for the frogs to put their tadpoles won't do the trick for Histrionica. (for some other species this system can work, and is allready being used in the past)
Also food is not the problem.

Number one problem are the seasons; you can't change these in nature, but you can influence these conditions in a breeding-farm..

These frogs need good conditions to reproduce, and these conditions don't occur every year in nature.
That's also why these frogs are so vulnerable; they need a certain amount of induviduals to produce enough offspring to keep the population strong.
It is an Oophaga, but completely different than (the most) pumilio's.

Another thing; i hope eveybody can stay to the point and keep it constructive, the subject is allready complex enough. 

Lets go back to the problem with the illegal frogs and solutions.

Hi Phil, 

Just read your post, your totally right.


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## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> Chris has an even higher obligation now that he is faced with the possiblity of potential offspring. Who to distribute them to. If he decides to only sell them for the highest prices - most likely to newer hobbyists, he risks being thought of as money grubbing bastard who thumbs his nose at the hobby.
> 
> Like anything else in life, there are moral considerations at every turn...
> 
> unless.
> 
> You are someone that just doesn't give a Fu*k. ...and there are some of those people here amongst us as well but I personally hope....not many.


I think that's Phil's way of saying he wants to be on the wait list


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## Philsuma

ChrisK said:


> I think that's Phil's way of saying he wants to be on the wait list


Bingo.

Seriously.....I just hope some you don't see dollar signs and ship a bunch out to some dot.com newbie goofs in slicone valley that have a whole 6 months in the hobby.


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## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Seriously.....I just hope some you don't see dollar signs and ship a bunch out to some dot.com newbie goofs in slicone valley that have a whole 6 months in the hobby.


The only thing I do for the money is get up and go to work


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## Philsuma

here's a VERY good Columbian dart frog wesite that is apropos to this thread.

Have to spell it out as DB filitering must be high lately and is rejecting links...

www dot DartFrog dot tk


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## Ed

Well it appears that there isn't any way that this frog can be managed to allow for sustainable harvest of animals in a manner that encourages the sustainability of the local enviroment. Pulling animals from the wild for captive breeding in and of iteself does not encourage nor does it imply that conservation of the habitat will occur much less be encouraged. That is a conservation model Zoos tried much to thier sorrow as it pretty much is a total failure. What happens is that you end up with a extinct wild population and if one isn't careful, a captive population that cannot be released as it has adapted too much to captivity. I would post references for people to peruse but I get a database error and lose everything I typed. 

I'm done with the thread. 

Ed


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## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> here's a VERY good Columbian dart frog wesite that is apropos to this thread.
> 
> Have to spell it out as DB filitering must be high lately and is rejecting links...
> 
> www dot DartFrog dot tk


Strange how on that site they're displaying people's vivariums with bicolors and mystis eh?


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## sbreland

fred...
no answers to my direct question to you about what you would like done with the frogs already in the hobby?? Must be a hard question because you've answered all the rest...



fred said:


> Hi Adam,
> 
> I agree with you, and for a fact, there are people watching and looking out for smugglers, but it is not easy.
> Many collectors are people from the area who receive money for the frogs, and they are not so easy to track down or get caught in the act.
> 
> Hi Ed,
> 
> Providing extra possibility's for the frogs to put their tadpoles won't do the trick for Histrionica. (for some other species this system can work, and is allready being used in the past)
> Also food is not the problem.
> 
> Number one problem are the seasons; you can't change these in nature, but you can influence these conditions in a breeding-farm..
> 
> These frogs need good conditions to reproduce, and these conditions don't occur every year in nature.
> That's also why these frogs are so vulnerable; they need a certain amount of induviduals to produce enough offspring to keep the population strong.
> It is an Oophaga, but completely different than (the most) pumilio's.
> 
> Another thing; i hope eveybody can stay to the point and keep it constructive, the subject is allready complex enough.
> 
> Lets go back to the problem with the illegal frogs and solutions.
> 
> Hi Phil,
> 
> Just read your post, your totally right.


----------



## Philsuma

Nothing can be done with those frogs already in the hobby....Fred nor anyone else (Except PETA) will never suggest killing them or even giving them up.

The only things "that can be done" are:

1. Provide accurate information in order to raise awarness and level the playing field for the future.

2. Change attitudes within the hobby, resulting in less smuggled or illegal frogs.

What else is there?


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## sbreland

not really sure... BUT he seems to be very interested in pointing out the "illegal frogs on this forum" as evidenced by the title. There is NOTHING that can be done about frogs in the hobby already but manage them correctly but if that is the case then what's the point of singling out certain people and their frogs to try to make his point? nothing.


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## Peter Keane

Wow, what made me think this would come up... I have been in this hobby for nearly 36 years.. since I was 12 years old.. and my first frog was actually a D. lehmanni (now Oophaga) and I paid $12.99 at a pet store and these ONLY came in with tropical fish shipments (no seperate shipments for frogs from a reptile dealer). Through the years, I also had "bullseye" histrionicus, Ecuadorian histrionicus, red-headed histrionicus (D. histrionicus confluens).. I have had success breeding "Bullseye" and D. histrionicus confluens.. Much too small amounts to keep the hobby happy even way back then when there were only like 5-6 known in the hobby (aka: "the olden days"). Unfortunately, none of the froglets lasted a year. These were all legally acquired frogs. I have been recently attacked for merely mentioning I once had these. I responded and have not heard from that person since. (As far as a reply, LOL, nothing shady happened .. I promise, LOL).. It is our mission to obtain legal animals and hopefully breed them to sustain our hobby, as our hobby has come a LONG way.. from when I had little information to go by. Sorry for blabbing.. I think both sides have a point. Those who have these frogs are in good hands and are starting to get courting/breeding.. so, good luck with them.. <yawn, nodding off here>... and those countries that have dart frogs preserve them and their lands by farm raising them.. like they did in Peru with the assistance of the World Bank. 

Oh, and I also heard that Captivus are showing up in Asia.. I am trying to get my feelers out there to confirm this.. anyone else hear of this?

Peter Keane


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## skylsdale

Peter Keane said:


> Oh, and I also heard that Captivus are showing up in Japan.. I am trying to get my feelers out there to confirm this.. anyone else hear of this?


Most likely. I believe they have been for sale in Europe over the past year or so.


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## Peter Keane

BTW... I am willing to share information on a "Breeding Report" on Dendrobates (now Oophaga)histrionicus confluens (aka red-headed/faced histrionicus) it was in the 1989 Dendrobatidae Nederland English Translation.. YES, this was the first English Translation of this Dutch Dart Frog Society.. not the most recent one described as such.. (the new one is MUCH nicer and in magazine form).. let me know if anyone would like to see a copy of the report I will advise how to receive it. This was in a year when ventrimaculatus and others were ALL listed in the quinquvittatus group, LOL... it even has a color picture of my female histo... (RIP).. and she used to call also.. (more of a release call, based on actions after the call)

Peter Keane
JungleWorld


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## james67

Peter Keane said:


> Oh, and I also heard that Captivus are showing up in Asia.. I am trying to get my feelers out there to confirm this.. anyone else hear of this?
> 
> Peter Keane


from what i remember hearing there have been some in japan since just after they showed up in germany . 

james


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## 013

sbreland said:


> not really sure... BUT he seems to be very interested in pointing out the "illegal frogs on this forum" as evidenced by the title. There is NOTHING that can be done about frogs in the hobby already but manage them correctly but if that is the case then what's the point of singling out certain people and their frogs to try to make his point? nothing.


The argument 'the frogs are allready here' is sticking your head in the sand. It's just the kind of argument people use to justify buying critically endangered frogs.

Now, If all the smuggled German lehmanni produce off-spring in abundance and German laws are not being enforced, wouldn't they be offering lots of CB frogs in the open? But they don't. Hence, the (enormous) demand for the species is only being satisfied by smuggled frogs. Or do you still believe in virile 30 year old legal lehmanni?

Please don't kid yourself.


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## 013

Peter Keane said:


> Oh, and I also heard that Captivus are showing up in Asia.. I am trying to get my feelers out there to confirm this.. anyone else hear of this?
> 
> Peter Keane


Yes they are. They showed up in Germany the same month they were discoverd. Very sad...


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## flyingkip

013 said:


> Yes they are. They showed up in Germany the same month they were discoverd. Very sad...


Don't you mean they showed up in Germany the same month the discovery was announced? 
I know they kept it quiet for almost a year or so...


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## Roadrunner

This is a MAJOR part of the problem. And the authorities would disagree.



DCreptiles said:


> but i have to agree with chrisk we cant blaim the people on DB or anywhere else for purchasing frogs that may or may not be smuggled i think that most of the people here ( that are new ) arent very educated on the backround of these frogs and really know whats legal and whats not.


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## sports_doc

013 said:


> The argument 'the frogs are allready here' is sticking your head in the sand. It's just the kind of argument people use to justify buying critically endangered frogs.
> 
> Now, If all the smuggled German lehmanni produce off-spring in abundance and German laws are not being enforced, wouldn't they be offering lots of CB frogs in the open? But they don't. Hence, the (enormous) demand for the species is only being satisfied by smuggled frogs. Or do you still believe in virile 30 year old legal lehmanni?
> 
> Please don't kid yourself.


013
Please ID yourself...it would 'help' members if people knew who they were talking to.


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## fred

Chris,

Why do you avoid talking about, and don't you answer to answer the question from what country your frogs are coming from?
Why don't you want to say from which trader?
Why? don't you want to share this with the other hobbyists here, so they also have a chance to see where you can buy these frogs?
If everything is legal, there is nothing to hide?

Do they send you mailing-lists with the frog-species available every now and then? let us know!
Share this, we all would like to see what species there are more!

If your frogs are coming from a smuggler, wouldn't you like to know that??
Or don't you care about it?


How to filter out illegal frogs:

1. There are world-wide just a handfull old-timers in the hobby who have the frogs or better, their descendants from the original imports in the eighties.
They can produce just enough to maintain their own groups.
They have the original papers, or if they don't; having these frogs for so many years is not so difficult to prove with a little research; many people know would know about it. 

2. You can be sure that all Histrionica's and lehmanni's from the 90's up till today are smuggled, that is the way how it is, in Europe the hobby was in these years allready developed far enough that everybody knew that Colombia didn't export frogs. (I assume in the U.S. it's not much different, but maybe i'm wrong on this one)
I think the best line to draw is from 1990, before that time things are pretty shady; everybody who can prove to have them from before that date could have them legalized. (just a suggestion, but that's not up to me, is up to the local authorities)

All the rest of the frogs which are stolen from Colombia, should be confiscated and returned to Colombia to one of the conservation-projects. 
In my opinion that's the only right thing to do.
Another option is a lokal conservation-project, who is in contact (or can get in contact) with the ones in Colombia.

3. To make shure if protected animals are being stolen from their habitat, is an obligation from you authorities; if they made misstakes they should set it right.
These frogs, and also their offspring ARE ILLEGAL, because they slipped through 'the net' doesn't change that fact. 
These frogs should not have been allowed in the first place; they are protected animals; import them is a serious crime. (equal to import f.e. tiger-bones etc.)

4. Is it difficult to track down these frogs? no; from the thousants that are (and still get) smuggled, just a few here and there survived, the fact they are so wanted in the hobby makes it clear.

Eveyone who has these frogs can tell the authorities where they bought them, and the lines will lead right there.
There are no deep going generations, so that makes the research simple.
Most of these frogs are not to long in the hobby; people buy them, have them for a while, some people even for years, allmost nobody breeds with them, and they dissapear. (untill the next 'import', when eveybody has new 'culture breds' again).
This is the way how the habitats get sucked dry..

You can see how the reactions are on the tadpoles that Chris has at this moment....shouldn't be such a big deal..

5. Why are there country's where this doesn't happen on this big scale like in other country's? 

Because the authorities do their work and don't allow illegal protected animals in the hobby.

Because other hobbyists don't allow it eather and have a 'social control'.

Offcourse there are much more illegal and doubtfull frogs, from Colombia and other country's, for them the same rules i would say, makes no difference.

The more experienced hobbyists all know what i'm talking about, no need to deny that.

Keep the hobby clean, help protecting the wild-life; hobbyists/experts should be an example for others, and show we are working WITH nature, not AGAINST it.

Goodluck.


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## ChrisK

Well fred, why do YOU avoid lots of the questions being asked of you and why do you continually ignore the export data that is shown to you? 
Like I said, I don't know you or anything about you except that you came out of nowhere and started throwing accusations around that are based on assumptions, then started asking me to send you legal documents online, there seems to be less and less reasons for me to tell you anything as time goes on.
So how about addressing all the questions that were asked of you?


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## Philsuma

fred said:


> All the rest of the frogs which are stolen from Colombia, should be confiscated and returned to Colombia to one of the conservation-projects.
> In my opinion that's the only right thing to do.
> Another option is a lokal conservation-project, who is in contact (or can get in contact) with the ones in Colombia.


well.....I guess this is a third option that I forgot about. This is the reason I didn't acquire the Casti's - I heard Brazil was actually demanding them back.

I would still like see a formal document from a source country government addressing the issue in detail. Until we get a lot more offical info and "rulings" on the various species, I don't see how we can act.

There's just too much confusion....


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## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> This is the reason I didn't acquire the Casti's - I heard Brazil was actually demanding them back.


I thought the reason was the legacy you wanted to leave?


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## fred

Chris,

I answered many questions if you read everything again.

Also I said I can answer what I know, and i did and wil.

About your papers; i offered to check here if your papers (copy's) are real, this is something i would like to know when i bought these frogs..but i can understand you don't do that, because you don't know me, didn't think of that, it was just an idea.

It is getting a little confusing with so many things going on here now, so maybe i missed something, so ask me again what you think i didn't answer.
Fire away..

Anyway, i allready did answer a lot of questions, so maybe you can answer the questions too?
This questions:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you avoid talking about, and don't you answer to answer the question from what country your frogs are coming from?
Why don't you want to say from which trader?
Why? don't you want to share this with the other hobbyists here, so they also have a chance to see where you can buy these frogs?
If everything is legal, there is nothing to hide?

Do they send you mailing-lists with the frog-species available every now and then? let us know!
Share this, we all would like to see what species there are more!

If your frogs are coming from a smuggler, wouldn't you like to know that??
Or don't you care about it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## ChrisK

Well really after this experience I wouldn't name any breeders' names just to avoid them experiencing the same unfounded types of persecution that are going on here. If you want to witch-hunt, find your own targets. 
I'm not going to reiterate all the data that people like Ed provided here that you ignored or dismissed as untrue.
I'm not going to continue asking any questions about the protection/farming efforts going on there that you continue to ingore either.


----------



## Philsuma

ChrisK said:


> I thought the reason was the legacy you wanted to leave?


Ok Chris.....we can go this way too, if you want to get cute.

Who did you get your Histo's from?


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## ChrisK

See the above, and learn to laugh a little


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## sports_doc

Philsuma said:


> Ok Chris.....we can go this way too, if you want to get cute.


Please dont.

It's hard, I am sure, not to feel threatened by this thread, so let's keep it civil everyone.

--------------------------

We are no longer solving the worlds problems if the thread continues to spiral downhill.

This thread has provided me and I'm sure many others with new insight and information so I'd like not to see it 'lost' due to personal attacks.

--------------------------


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## fred

Chris,

Let me explain you things in another way; It is not my purpose to nail you to the wall, it is not even my purpose to nail the smugglers to the wall..

The main thing is to stop the smuggling right now.

Species are being wiped out, they need our protection, why? because we are for a big part respondsable.

I do understand you; you're a passionate hobbyist, otherwise you would not get tadpoles from your histri's; use your knowledge in a good way!
Help to stop this.

If you would come here (you're welcome), and you see the beauty of the frogs in their habitat, you'll understand.
If you think of them being wiped out, you'll understand better.
There are in the first place things more important then to have them in your collection.

I'm a passionate hobbyist too, and in the past i made misstakes too, i'm not affraid to say that.
I also in the past have had frogs that are for sure (like i know now) could never have been legal and i've been stupid to buy them.

Many years ago everything was much more unclear then now, but still i could have know.

The problem now is that the hobby has grown tremendously, and the demant for frogs also.

Understand that this must be stopped now.

Don't beat around the bush (i like that song from ac/dc) and let's work together on this.


----------



## ChrisK

I bought froglets with legal papers, that's the end of the story on my end and I'm not going to address it in any other form. My goal was to document their breeding from start to metamorphosis and beyond, hopefully to get some good info out that might help others and get hard to breed egg feeders more established, at least among people with the skills/experience for them, noting all the techniques and variables involved, along with their behaviors and actions, that's definitely not going to happen anymore.

I'm more than willing to work together on it, I asked you more than once about any farming/protection/repopulation efforts going on down there and made suggestions because I'm actually interested in it and wanted to help or get involved in some capacity like donations or a fund set up. That has gone unanswered like I noted.


----------



## fred

Chris,

Just reconsider this whole discussion, take your time to think about it and put everything in perspective.

I allready told you that the Cali Zoo in Colombia is working on research, conservation and education (people in the frog-area's)
This is a fact.

If you like, i can show series of pictures where i'm builing a terrarium with artificial rocks for the Cali Zoo conservation-project which they showed at a nature-protection exhibition.
(i hope my english is understandable, i'm not really good at it in writing..)

More important then donations is to stop the smuggling, and change the general attitude of the hobbyists.

Although donations are allways welcome.... (lol) (found the smileys)


----------



## gyuen

poimandres said:


> I for one have experienced this first hand, not with frogs but with archaeological artifacts. I worked in Bolivia and Peru for 4 years and along with others fought hard to minimize the number of artifacts that were surfacing in the black market. Our weapon of choice? Education, from the bottom up. We went out the communities themselves -the Aymara and Quechua campesinos and informed them how an artifact by itself (without detailed record of the context in which is was found) is simply a pretty item with little to no historical significance. We educated them about how they could preserve and propagate their own cultural history by ensuring that such artifacts were properly documented. When they learned that they were selling out their own history and that of their ancestors and their land, things quickly changed. Trust me it is a huge anglo-centric generalization when we dismiss the locals ability to value to their own cutlural/natural heritage in lieu of money. Make them question their own motives and we will see change. We saw it with archaeological artifacts coming out of Peru and Bolivia, no reason to suspect that the same wont happen with frogs.
> 
> Returning to frogs and the issue at hand, clearly many errors have been made - whether conscious or not. However, pointing fingers, labeling individuals as "bad people" or frogs as "illegal" and simply outlining those errors is NOT enough. We need to have more discussion on how to precisely remedy these situation for future improvement. What are some of the solutions proposed? I turn this question to those of you with years and decades of experience...yes, we have a problem, but what steps do we take to solve this problem? Blanket statements and cliches are not enough here, we need a detailed and direct vision.
> 
> Another topic of discussion I would like to see is - How can the current captive frog populations of questionable origin now be properly managed? These frogs are here, do we just turn a blind eye to them or do we work together to properly document them and their future offspring. Posts about irresponsible ownership and importation/exportation of such frogs will only encourage the owners to hide and further divide the community. Perhaps we need to agree as a community to take steps together, we are all at fault - from the new comers who buy frogs without knowing their precise origins to the experienced hobbyists who keep quiet just to avoid confrontation. We must TRUST each other, have faith in the good intentions of or our members so that we can bring data and information to the table. Unfortunately, FEAR of retribution and ostracization from the frogger community forces many to keep quiet. Perhaps as a community we need to reassure each other that this is not about headhunting the (for the most part) well intentioned hobbyists, but about educating everyone from the veteran frogger to the ten year old keeping wild caught mixed morphs in a 10 gallon to the campesino gathering frogs in a coke bottle.
> 
> I truly believe that we need transparency, we need to see and monitor these frogs in captivity and encourage open discussion and debate about them. If you are the owner of an import (recent or not) of questionable origin and you find it to be littered with parasites, or Chytrid, or other disease, POST about it, let others who may have made the same mistake know so they can do their best to at least keep these frogs alive. Open conversations, ask questions regarding records and responsible breeding plans, etc. The last thing we want to see are more of those exhorbant numbers of imports seemingly disappearing from the record books. Some die, yes, but perhaps even more disconcerting is that many likely just get mixed in with previous populations without most of us ever knowing. Information and large databases are the weapons to fight the good fight. Lets stop basking in the ills of the past and become proactive by accumulating information and unifying our community.
> 
> Anyway, I am beginning to nonsensically rant. But I just want to stress that we need to see more ideas surface regarding SOLUTIONS if we hope to see a change for the better.



This is the best post I ever see re: Smuggling frogs (or anything). Like you mention it, "Education" is what the solution to all this smuggling. Instead of wasting money trying to stop the smugglers (never work), money should goes to educate them as to teach them how to collect frogs in the forest without destroy the population. 

Chris, why bother to waste your time with someone not ever in the hobby. 

Fred, nothing personal, but your commends should be on conservation forum not here. Do come back to share info, husbandry, behavior of pdf when you start housing this.


g


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## sbreland

fred said:


> Chris,
> 
> 
> The main thing is to stop the smuggling right now.


And see fred, this is what you don't get... this is a responsibility on YOUR end. We can't stop smuggling if it ALREADY HAPPENED. You say if we reject the smuggled frogs and the demand is not there then the smugglers will stop? Really? Then explain why Ed (one of the most knowledgeable people on this board whos stats you've chosen to ignore) has said over and over and over the most smuggled frog is an AURATUS!!! Auratus are common here in the US... you could buy them easily and through LEGAL channels yet the smugglers STILL smuggle them. With the numbers of legally supplied auratus NOT stopping the smugglers from gathering auratus then WHY do you think it would work with histos and lehmanni?? NEWS FLASH!!!! It won't! There will be smugglers as long as they can make money, big or small, and the only way to stop them is to stop it at the source... nail them before they pick them up (or pay the local to do it). You say stuff like "oh, the locals are poor and don't think about that in the face of the money"... BULLSHIT! That's a cop out and just as poor an excuse as someone saying "oh, I didn't know they were smuggled". Then you persecute Chris (yes persecute... there is nothing friendly about what you are doing) to out who and where he got his frogs from. On a side note... Phil, poor form man. Anyways, you persecute Chris to say who he got his frogs from so you can what??? Accuse THEM of illegal frogs. No wonder he and anyone else who has these doesn't want to pop their head up and let it be known. You asked earlier why people who have these aren't out in the open and sharing their successes? This is the reason. Like the idiot who attacked Peter Keane a couple of weeks ago (good to hear he swallowed his accusations and turned with his tail between his legs) people don't want to be subject to the BS that seems to happen every time with these frogs. Fred, you aren't the authorities so I don't see where Chris has to prove anything to you. If you were maybe you'd wake up and see that the problem is not going to be solved by attacking the end user... you attack the heart of the problem and get them before the frogs are picked up. Since you so adamantly tout how great the authorities are down there then why haven't heavy fines or jail time been threatened for anyone (local or not) who are caught helping smuggling? If that's already in place, why isn't it working?? I'll tell you why... ENFORCEMENT. This is all stuff that need to happen on your end. You want to make a difference then attack the problem where it starts... in Colombia and quit crucifying hobbiest on an open forum. You want people that have these frogs legally to be open and share their successes but when what happens to Chris happened to them before, I'm not at all surprised they don't. You've driven yet another Histo owner to the point of saying "f*&* it" and not wanting to share their successes and I don't blame him. 

As for you answering questions... I have asked you several times to answer mine yet you've never directly responded to me and if your answer of "give them all back to Colombia" was your answer to my question.... well, then you haven't thought this out too well. Let's see... IF these frogs are legal they already made it through the stress of shipping once yet you want to put them through it again? And then what? You're going to take them out in the wild and just drop one here and one there??? Sorry, but that doesn't cut it. You don't have a plan. You don't have a solution for the frogs already in the hobby and that IS my point.

As for 013 (whoever you are)... I'm sticking my head in the sand a little less than you are. The "arguement" that they are already in the hobby IS a real arguement... they DO exist and you can't change the past. They are here so what do you do with them??? Let me guess... no answer from you just like fred. Here's another news flash (Jeez, feel like I work at the TV station today)... there will ALWAYS be a demand! Don't believe me??? See reference above to auratus. Auratus are one of the most common frogs in the hobby and yet they are STILL the most smuggled. Ed has proven that. They are LEGALLY imported in by the thousands and yet there is still a demand for smuggled frogs. The problem is not quelling the demand (because it's never going to happen), it's squashing the source, period. I can say pretty safely that if all countries of the world passed a law that you would get your hand cut off if you are found having these frogs it would change the demand some... but not completely. I GUARANTEE you that even knowing that they will lose their hand you will STILL find a demand and some people will want these frogs. You're pounding your head against an impossibly hard tree so perhaps it's time you pulled YOUR head out of the sand.

I remember now why arguements on DB are pointless... you never get people to listen.


----------



## Roadrunner

So, if Ben`s got busted selling illegal frogs, does that mean that any of the frogs he sent to the US, which are the same species he got busted for, also going to be checked into? Because, if he sold them to the US w/ falsified paperwork, the people who bought them should know.

The auratus problem is a different one. No one expects the auratus they buy to be smuggled, there are so many of them and they are being imported from panama at the moment. Any CB histos and lehmanni, ranatomeya,etc. should be able to be traced to a few select individuals and w/ the # of cb produced people who breed them would know if they sold to those individuals. Don`t fool yourself, people are already saying they got frogs from certain people that have never dealt w/ them.


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## gyuen

And if Fred and his government wants to get rid of smuggling, here's a solution, have Columbia government legalize all the animals. Give out license to smugglers, upgrade them to be license collectors. This way, government gets the license/export tax money to help conservation and maybe some to help citizen of the country. Win-Win??


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## rmelancon

The answer lies in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Ecuador, etc. The hobby has proven it will support legal farming/conservation efforts if given the option. Mark Pepper in Peru is a prime example, SNDF in Panama is another. It is not the hobbyists responsibility to police things happening in Columbia or Panama, it's a losing proposition and won't change a thing. Give us access to a legitimite conservation project in Columbia and we will support it. Without that, nothing will change.


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## gyuen

rmelancon said:


> The answer lies in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Ecuador, etc. The hobby has proven it will support legal farming/conservation efforts if given the option. Mark Pepper in Peru is a prime example, SNDF in Panama is another. It is not the hobbyists responsibility to police things happening in Columbia or Panama, it's a losing proposition and won't change a thing. Give us access to a legitimite conservation project in Columbia and we will support it. Without that, nothing will change.


If the frogs deals are as big in $ as in drugs then, yes, the governments will open the door for us.

And the last time I check with my best friend, Google.com re: forest being destroyed, here what comes up:

"WHY ARE RAINFORESTS BEING DESTROYED?

Every year an area of rainforest the size of New Jersey is cut down and destroyed. The plants and animals that used to live in these forests either die or must find a new forest to call their home. Why are rainforests being destroyed?

Humans are the main cause of rainforest destruction or deforestation. Humans are cutting down rainforests for many reasons, including:

* wood for both timber and wood for making fires;
* agriculture for both small and large farms;
* land for poor farmers who don't have anywhere else to live;
* grazing land for cattle; and
* road construction 
"

How come I don't see smuggling anywhere?


g


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## Julio

I dont condone smuggling, but keep in mind that the smugglers are not destroying the frog habitats but the people cutting down the forest are.


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## frogfreak

Julio said:


> I dont condone smuggling, but keep in mind that the smugglers are not destroying the frog habitats but the people cutting down the forest are.


I like how we point or fingers at the people that are cutting down the rainforest.

We're not guilty of destroying our own forests here in North america or importing lumber from these rainforests.? 

People love Brazlian hardwood flooring here in North america....


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## Julio

A lot of brazilian wood is illegal to be used and i am sure that is pretty strict here in the US last i checked


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## sbreland

rmelancon said:


> The answer lies in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Ecuador, etc. The hobby has proven it will support legal farming/conservation efforts if given the option. Mark Pepper in Peru is a prime example, SNDF in Panama is another. It is not the hobbyists responsibility to police things happening in Columbia or Panama, it's a losing proposition and won't change a thing. Give us access to a legitimite conservation project in Columbia and we will support it. Without that, nothing will change.


Amen... finally some sense to the arguement..


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## fred

Hi Aaron,

Ben got busted in Holland; if the German authorities further don't do nothing about it, probably nothing will happen.
Besides, he is not the only one..

Hi Gyuen, 

There is similarity between forests being destroyed and frogs populations being wiped out: if the consumer don't buy tropical hardwood and frogs, they can't sell.

We are the consumers, be respondsible.

Well, this discussion is again going nowhere, pity..but it does give a vision about the atmosphere in hobby overthere..

I also notice from pm's and emails that people are affraid to speak their mind over this matter.
Very sad.


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## frogfreak

Julio said:


> A lot of brazilian wood is illegal to be used and i am sure that is pretty strict here in the US last i checked


Or maybe not Julio. I tried to ad a link and it wouldn't let me. It's avaliable at Lowes. Bring up Lowes and do a search on Brazilian harwood flooring. It's there.

It seems that the Industrialized nations love to tell the third world Country's what they shoud be doing to protect there natural resources, when all we've done is raped and pilaged our own.


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## Julio

ok so then lets go buy the land and preserve it, its easy for us to say that we all play a part in its destruction, but let's do somethign about it, donate to a conservation society that will purchase rainforest land, I know Sting and Leo Decaprio has an organization that does this and they purchase a few acres every year.


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## sbreland

Hi fred, my name is Stace.

I am curious... you have brought up good points in your arguement here but when faced with hard questions you selectively ignore them. Why is that?? I've directly asked you several questions and you seem to answer everyone else (by name) but ignore mine completely... why is that? Maybe I'm sticking my head in the sand as 013 (whoever the hell that is) said but I think they are important angles that we need to know to understand where you are coming from. Someone coming on this board screaming "We need to stop the smuggling" serves no purpose as the town crier rarely gets attention. I really am curious now why you can't (or won't) answer me directly but now that you know my name you have no reason not to. No PMs necessary... public forum is fine for me.


fred said:


> Hi Aaron,
> 
> Ben got busted in Holland; if the German authorities further don't do nothing about it, probably nothing will happen.
> Besides, he is not the only one..
> 
> Hi Gyuen,
> 
> There is similarity between forests being destroyed and frogs populations being wiped out: if the consumer don't buy tropical hardwood and frogs, they can't sell.
> 
> We are the consumers, be respondsible.
> 
> Well, this discussion is again going nowhere, pity..but it does give a vision about the atmosphere in hobby overthere..
> 
> I also notice from pm's and emails that people are affraid to speak their mind over this matter.
> Very sad.


----------



## Philsuma

1. W.C Auratus
2. C.B Azureus
3. W.C Panamanian Pumilio

4. Histrionicus
5. Blue Jean pumilio - apparently sarapiqui Costa Rica morph
6. Escudo from protected reserve
7. CB _Dendrobates castaneoticus_

anyone see a distinction? or are all of these the same?

We can't take on every single battle but isn't there SOME SORT of line that the hobby should be maintaining?

My Azureus are from Patrick Nabors stock and were juveniles when I received them. Based on the low price, small size and that they are common in the hobby - I deduced that they are "ok to own", accepted and yes...legal.

as I stated in my earlier post, I don't know the entire history of this species and exactly who, how and when it arrived in the U.S. If I subsequently find out they were all brought in here by illegal means - guess what species is exiting my frog room. I don't *think* that will ever be the case, but I'm prepared to deal with it, if it is.

The "questionable" stuff.....

When you dip into the deep end of the pool and work with the rare stuff, you NEED to be prepared to take the weight that comes with that. Questions asked, no matter how probing. Inquirees from people in the source country - entirely appropriate in my book too.


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## Julio

Well, from what i know Azureus were never legally collected for Hobby distribution, they were collected for Scientific purposes by the NAIB as to how their line even got out in circulation among the hobby, beats me.


----------



## sbreland

well Phil,
based on your list you seem mostly right... EXCEPT that if you dig into deeper you can probably put about 90% of the frogs in the hobby on that list, so should we be keeping frogs at all??? 
I don't know the validity of it and I honestly can't even remember where I heard it but I heard that there may be some backlash about the benedicta coming as well... supposedly maybe they weren't allowed to be exported from Peru or something?? I don't know honestly and my memory of where I even heard it is hazy so I can't even remember who to ask about it. I KNOW Mark is an upstanding guy and would never do anything knowingly wrong or make a mistake like that so I don't think it was that, but I could be wrong. Anyone who has more info on that situation, it would be good to hear.

Point is though... aside from the VERY recent farming projects most frogs in the hobby "could" or do have shadowy backgrounds so should we all just "send them back to the jungle" as fred sort of suggested (if I could ever get him to answer my question we'd know for sure what he wants to do) or should we realize that you can't go back in the past and the fight is now in the present and future?


----------



## frogfreak

Julio said:


> ok so then lets go buy the land and preserve it, its easy for us to say that we all play a part in its destruction, but let's do somethign about it, donate to a conservation society that will purchase rainforest land, I know Sting and Leo Decaprio has an organization that does this and they purchase a few acres every year.


I agree. If you want to purchase land and help protect it, by all means go ahead. It's a great idea. Our family buy several homes for family's in Bolivia annually. Pick a cause. There's tons of them.

I'm not sure you understand what I was getting at. We have big problems right in our own backyard, yet we have a tendancy to point our fingers at other Country's.

Clearcutting our own forests.

Oil spills.

Air pollution.

Habiatat and species extintion.

Urban sprawl.

Garbage.

Better recycling programs.

Etc.

All I'm trying to get across is that WE have huge problems to overcome here as well.

For the reccord. I will not purchase any frogs that come from Colombia until this mess is figured out.


----------



## fred

Hi Stace, 

Well, you know my name allready, and i allready said where i'm coming from and where i live.
I'm sorry, but i think i have about answered all the questions people asked me, but i could have missed something..there's a lot of posts here..

So ask me again and i'll answer you about what i know.
No problem.


----------



## ChrisK

rmelancon said:


> The answer lies in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Ecuador, etc. The hobby has proven it will support legal farming/conservation efforts if given the option. Mark Pepper in Peru is a prime example, SNDF in Panama is another. It is not the hobbyists responsibility to police things happening in Columbia or Panama, it's a losing proposition and won't change a thing. Give us access to a legitimite conservation project in Columbia and we will support it. Without that, nothing will change.


Well fred, Robb is pretty much suggesting here in a nutshell what I was also suggesting, as Ed also did before, etc, what exactly is it you find wrong with this statement?


----------



## Philsuma

sbreland said:


> well Phil,
> based on your list you seem mostly right... EXCEPT that if you dig into deeper you can probably put about 90% of the frogs in the hobby on that list, so should we be keeping frogs at all???
> I don't know the validity of it and I honestly can't even remember where I heard it but I heard that there may be some backlash about the benedicta coming as well... supposedly maybe they weren't allowed to be exported from Peru or something?? I don't know honestly and my memory of where I even heard it is hazy so I can't even remember who to ask about it. I KNOW Mark is an upstanding guy and would never do anything knowingly wrong or make a mistake like that so I don't think it was that, but I could be wrong. Anyone who has more info on that situation, it would be good to hear.
> 
> Point is though... aside from the VERY recent farming projects most frogs in the hobby "could" or do have shadowy backgrounds so should we all just "send them back to the jungle" as fred sort of suggested (if I could ever get him to answer my question we'd know for sure what he wants to do) or should we realize that you can't go back in the past and the fight is now in the present and future?


Well.....we know for sure that W/C Panamanian Pumilio and Auratus are coming in legally. Check.

We also know that there are no such things as frog farms where campesinos tend to greenhouses full of obligate egg feeder frogs and film cans and culture FF, catch termites and seperate froglets. Check.

I have a friend from Hollywood (east coast, not west coast) who is dutch and Columbian. He used to post on here several years ago but only keeps a few Cauchero pums and is not active. Anyway....we talk quite a bit about the hobby and he provides a lot of insight into both of his parental countries and their laws ect. He is convinced that the Columbian govt will never allow any CB enterprise to provide legal exports.

Panama refuses to sign a CITES agreement on exports and although we now have to assume that all these pumilio are legal....the moral implications from unsustained harvesting especially from isolated and sensitive morph populations come into play.

This whole thing is a horrible ferris wheel of confusion and it's sad because we can all take a crack at working to fix it. 

We are going to need charts, lists and photoguides first. We have got to get on the same page and find out what is legal.....


----------



## sbreland

fred, this is the question that I have asked about 3 or 4 times now... I just got tired of retyping it when it never got answered...



sbreland said:


> I'm really surprised that nobody has mentioned this 20 pages in, but "fred", what is you suggestion for all the supposedly "illegal" frogs that you see here on the board? Let's just say they are illegal (which I do NOT think all are BTW)... what do you suggest we do with THOSE frogs?? Kill them? Ignore them? Never speak of them or never attempt to do anything with the offspring that they produce? Bullshit. I'm sorry, but whatever the means the frogs came in they are here now and they have to be managed and maintained and hopefully successfully bred. This will not stop smuggling, but it IS a step in the right direction. I can honestly say that I doubt Chris has/had any inclination that his frogs could be of questionable origin (which i don't think they are...) or he would have not bought them, just as anyone else that has them. People on this board tend to be mostly honest and if someone says it's CB, then you usually believe them. Is it the best policy? Mmmm... maybe not, but that's people's nature and GOOD LUCK ever changing that. So my question to you fred is this... What do you suggest we do with all the histrionicus that ARE in the US right now??? You say they are all illegal, so what do we do with them?
> 
> On a side note... I have TREMENDOUS issues with your assertions from the first page where you matter of factly state that there is little or no captive breeding of Histrionicus going on now or in the past. Hmm... I guess Chris is just making it up??? I guess the Histo froglets that I've seen with my own eyes (and the pics of eggs, then tads, then froglets that preceeded them) are a fairy tale and a figment of my imagination?? Did I see the Tooth Fairy?? I abso-freaking-loutely know that's not the case. I KNOW for a fact that there are and have been success stories with these frogs, and YES, many of them ARE descendants of the original LEGAL (yes, I said LEGAL) imports from long ago. You continually use the blanket statement that all histos are illegal... time to show some proof. Ed and others have show records on here of LEGAL exports and you keep disregarding them like that never really happened. Wake up, it happened and YES, some of those frogs (or their descendants) are still around. Period. You make some strong claims and without evidence I think you do your arguement a disservice.
> 
> Now, I know I look like I'm coming down on you and maybe I am. Your effort and your desire is admirable but it is honestly a bit off track. Your facts and assertions are not facts and are not completely true. You have great passion and a noble cause but your approach needs to be slightly tweaked... especially insisting that all histos are illegal.


----------



## Philsuma

rmelancon said:


> The answer lies in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Ecuador, etc. The hobby has proven it will support legal farming/conservation efforts if given the option. Mark Pepper in Peru is a prime example, SNDF in Panama is another.


Quite right. If you are professional and morally sound and "build it"...they WILL buy. I would go to Columbia tomorrow and help start this but I need to shop at Lloyds of London for kidnapping insurance first.



rmelancon said:


> It is not the hobbyists responsibility to police things happening in Columbia or Panama.


Not in other countries but it is our responsiblity to police everything here. You're back to the cocaine argument loop here otherwise. Just because drugs successfully make their way into the states doens't mean we give up trying to deal with the problem as best we can.


----------



## fred

Hi Chris,

Wel, like I said; we should not slide the problems away to the country's where we steal the frogs from, that's a little strange, don't you think?
People who buy smuggles frogs are in the first place the reason why the frogs get taken from their habitats in an irrespondsible way.

I don't see the connection here with Mark Pepper, i think he thinks the same about this like i do.

Do you think he is happy with the fact that he has a breeding farm, and works hard trying to protect the populations in the wild in this way, and the people buy the frogs from the smugglers, before he's got the chance to put them on the market legally?

They are taken the frogs that he is trying to protect, don't you see that?

I you want to protect these frogs, don't buy them from smugglers, and wait until they are available in the right way.

be respondsible.


----------



## sbreland

My point is you will never know what is legal... it's ALL been smuggled at some time or another. To complicate it more, almost all have been LEGALLY imported before. You know as well as anyone that 99.9% of hobbiest have NO paperwork attached to their frogs so how will we EVER know if they are of descent from legal or illegal imports??? Simple answer... we never will... EVER. The frogs that are here are never going to be "figured out" and only things coming in from now on will ever have a possibility to have any differentiation, but even then the problem is mostly NOT misidentification so we can chart and graph all we want... it won't change a thing. The problem (and what fred is harping on here) is frogs coming in through illegal channels. Honestly, I've seen this arguement or one like it come up once every 2 or 3 months on this board for about 4+ years and everyone has had noble ideas but not a damn thing has ever been done. The problem is bigger than us and needs a bigger solution and with the Colombian state of government and our problems here in the US with the economy and the damn oilspill I seriously doubt that you'll ever get anyone that can really make a difference listen. Think about it this way... recycling. can recycling be effective? Sure, but it takes a combined movement to see any real results. One person choosing to recycle or not to isn't going to change much so you need everyone in the community to do it (or at least the vast majority) but even if you get that you will still have SOME that decide to not recycle. It's the same with smuggled frogs. All the noble talk of changing the hobbiest mentality is good but you are NEVER going to change everyone's mind, so the problem will always exist to a greater or lesser degree. The only solution is to stop it before it happens... and I seriously doubt that is going to happen either. My rants are becoming more and more obscure so I think it's time for me to take a rest from this topic... as with the last 139 times it's been brought up this is not going to go anywhere. 


Philsuma said:


> Well.....we know for sure that W/C Panamanian Pumilio and Auratus are coming in legally. Check.
> 
> We also know that there are no such things as frog farms where campesinos tend to greenhouses full of obligate egg feeder frogs and film cans and culture FF, catch termites and seperate froglets. Check.
> 
> I have a friend from Hollywood (east coast, not west coast) who is dutch and Columbian. He used to post on here several years ago but only keeps a few Cauchero pums and is not active. Anyway....we talk quite a bit about the hobby and he provides a lot of insight into both of his parental countries and their laws ect. He is convinced that the Columbian govt will never allow any CB enterprise to provide legal exports.
> 
> Panama refuses to sign a CITES agreement on exports and although we now have to assume that all these pumilio are legal....the moral implications from unsustained harvesting especially from isolated and sensitive morph populations come into play.
> 
> This whole thing is a horrible ferris wheel of confusion and it's sad because we can all take a crack at working to fix it.
> 
> We are going to need charts, lists and photoguides first. We have got to get on the same page and find out what is legal.....


----------



## Roadrunner

So, if you don`t give it to us, we`ll have someone go down and steal it and we`ll pay them lots of money to do it?
There are projects being worked on that take time but people won`t wait.


ChrisK said:


> Well fred, Robb is pretty much suggesting here in a nutshell what I was also suggesting, as Ed also did before, etc, what exactly is it you find wrong with this statement?


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> I you want to protect these frogs, don't buy them from smugglers, and wait until they are available in the right way.
> 
> be respondsible.


Last point then I'm done... you totally just killed your arguement. The frogs we're arguing about ARE NOT available, and according to you will not be available anytime soon or maybe ever. If you try to convince someone with that arguement then you better be able to provide a timeline for when they would be available... and I can guarantee you if your answer is "never or in 3-5 years at the earliest" then you just lost. You aren't going to convince anyone to wait. Like I said, this arguement has been beaten to little tiny pieces so many times that I can't even count them but yet it still reemerges. Why? Because nothing is EVER done about it. Period. fred, you are in a place where you can make a change by leaning on the local authorities to change the laws/consequences for smuggling OUT OF YOUR COUNTRY. You can also pioneer the farming route if you have the same drive and desire as Mark Pepper. You have the most influence of anyone here on the situation AT THE ROOT since you live there and apparently have some connections so if you are not willing to undertake these steps then why should we feel guilty about your assertations of what we as a hobby should do?? Lead by example fred, instead of just being another crying voice on dendroboard... I can guarantee you from seeing past arguements that has never accomplished anything.


----------



## ChrisK

frogfarm said:


> So, if you don`t give it to us, we`ll have someone go down and steal it and we`ll pay them lots of money to do it?
> There are projects being worked on that take time but people won`t wait.


No that's not what I said. I was asking what was wrong with that type of a proposal since he kept refusing to acknowledge it.


----------



## Philsuma

sbreland said:


> My point is you will never know what is legal... it's ALL been smuggled at some time or another.


What's past is past. Energy used to argue the past is useless. We need to start with whats going on now. Can I get upset at Chuck Powell for any of this? Did the hobby "go bad" and was a mess made on his watch? No way. The past is no one's fault. It's time to move forward or even....wait for it......start over if need be. 

Can I roll up my sleeves and work to gather information and make sure facts are diseminated and people are aware of more than they were a year ago? Yes.



sbreland said:


> So we can chart and graph all we want... it won't change a thing. The problem (and what fred is harping on here) is frogs coming in through illegal channels. Honestly, I've seen this arguement or one like it come up once every 2 or 3 months on this board for about 4+ years and everyone has had noble ideas but not a damn thing has ever been done. The problem is bigger than us and needs a bigger solution and with the Colombian state of government and our problems here in the US with the economy and the damn oilspill I seriously doubt that you'll ever get anyone that can really make a difference listen.


You can give up if you want and I won't think worse of you but please don't belittle my efforts. I think more people are listening to this thread than you think.



sbreland said:


> Think about it this way... recycling. can recycling be effective? Sure, but it takes a combined movement to see any real results. One person choosing to recycle or not to isn't going to change much so you need everyone in the community to do it (or at least the vast majority) but even if you get that you will still have SOME that decide to not recycle.


In both homeowner communities that I belong to - recycling is mandatory and refusing to do so is against the law. In some municipalities in Florida the fine is $500.00 for the first offense. When I see my neighbor slamming green glass beer bottles into the metal non recyc dumpster that later gets smashed into shards and shakes out onto the blacktop and finally peircing my bare foot....I tend to say, "Hey Bill, you are supposed to put the glass bottles in the recycle bin and not loose in the metal dumpster". The next time it happens will not be a warning by me, but hopefully a fine.



sbreland said:


> It's the same with smuggled frogs. All the noble talk of changing the hobbiest mentality is good but you are NEVER going to change everyone's mind, so the problem will always exist to a greater or lesser degree. The only solution is to stop it before it happens... and I seriously doubt that is going to happen either.... as with the last 139 times it's been brought up this is not going to go anywhere.


Again...it's ok if you don't want to expend the energy to combat this, fix this or even of you feel it's a worthless cause...not a problem....but please don't just throw out negative statements and dismissals.


----------



## poimandres

There are three separate issues that are continually popping up in this thread, they are all connected, but not necessarily the same:

1. Protecting the species in its natural habitat and the habitat itself. 
2. Reducing and eventually stopping the illegal smuggling of said species.
3. Responsible management of those species of dubious origin already in the hobby.

These are the problems, we all agree on this. Now, what are the solutions?

Phil posted an outline for compiling data to help individuals be responsible when it comes to purchasing frogs and identifying the origins of those frogs they already own. This is a great step. Ron and Zach informed us that TWI/ASN is working on such documentation which is great news. These are solutions that will help organize the clusterf*ck of info and misinformation we are currently faced with, but will not solve the greater smuggling problem. Such a database will without a doubt help make individuals in our community more responsible, but this is only one front. 

While I wholeheartedly agree with protecting rainforest habitat, this will do very little to stop smuggling. IMO smuggling can only be deterred and eventually stopped through EDUCATING the very people who at the front (i.e. the campesinos). If they don't understand that by simply picking up frogs from anywhere they are damaging their own natural history, then what incentive do they have to stop? Earlier, I posted about my similar experience with illegally smuggled archaeological artifacts and how educating the locals was key in the battle - do we have anything similar going on with amphibians? Fred, this last question is posed to you since you are there - in Columbia. What are you and your organization doing to educate the locals? 

Lastly, what of the frogs that are already here? What is the responsible course of action? Throwing captive-bred and captivity acclimated frogs that where never properly managed for repatriation back into the wild is like throwing sheep into the lions den. So what is the appropriate course of action when we can't simply undo what has already been done?

Seems to me that what Chris K and others are doing is absolutely essential. We must keep track of these animals and their offspring. Information, transparency, and discussion is key! I do not know the origins of Chris' histos, but in my eyes he is doing the right thing. He is educating us, putting his own ass on the line and not hiding - despite the proverbial witch-hunt that he is faced with. If people don't step up to the plate and do this, then we are simply adding kindle to the fire. If the community (and Fred I include you in here) does not stand behind him and his efforts than we are forcing him and others to go into hiding. What will result is NO information, NO data, NO education and an abyss that will only be traversed every now and then when the offspring of such rare frogs appear next to a ridiculous price tag to be sold to the highest bidder.


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## sbreland

Phil,
Energy isn't the issue for me... frustration and time is. I don't know if you know (you probably don't since there is no reason for you to know) but I start medical school in about a month and half... not exactly like I'm going to have boatloads of time or patience to deal with this stuff right now or anytime soon. I'm not being negative... I'm being real. This argument has been fought so many times I think we've all lost count and NOTHING has ever been done so honestly, with all good intentions come failed ideas unless something is done, and to this point there hasn't been anything done. If this time is different then I'll gladly eat my words, but until then I will wait to see if anything comes of this. 
Let me make this straight and simple... I'm a hobbiest and not an activist. I keep frogs because I enjoy them, not because I'm looking for a cause to support or because I want to change the world. Do I care about the issues in the hobby?? Sure, but I honestly care more about finding out how to get this to breed and that to acclimate better... and looking at some honestly cool animals. For all the activist out there don't think I'm belittling you... it's not that. I commend you for you efforts but don't always assume that everyone should follow in your footsteps and be as active or become the activist you are. That type of mentality will get you the "PETA" like label and we all know you don't want that. Just remember, for some people it IS just a hobby and they want to enjoy their frogs and further the HOBBY... not save the world (or rainforests in this particular case, LOL). More power to all those out there that do and good luck...


----------



## zBrinks

Philsuma said:


> Can I roll up my sleeves and work to gather information and make sure facts are diseminated and people are aware of more than they were a year ago? Yes.


 Phil, my offer still stands to send you an example of ASN's TMP - I have a WIP copy of the Heterixalus madagascariensis TMP I can email you. TWI/ASN needs volunteers to gather the information and compile it into a form that has already been established. Not only will this provide information on the natural history of the species, but provide husbandry information, as well as a way to maintain the population in the hobby, thus removing or at least severely reducing the need for WC imports. 

Please, anyone interested in putting the work in to help this project succeed, please contact me and I'll put you in touch with the project overseer. Chances are, you'd be able to work with a species of your choice, or several of them, for that matter.


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## Philsuma

Nice post Leo....love the energy.

Here's how I see the "effort tree". You have to find out where you make your first battles - the most bang for the buck. Unfortuately, it does not start with the campesinos. They are scratching out a living and are thousands of miles away. It doesn't start with source countries, international treaties with cool acronyms or even tracts of purchased rainforsest.

It starts here.

On forums, where words and post reach out quickly to a hundred different countries in the span of minutes. Where posts and threads with valuable information stay archived for years and years, so that hundreds and hundreds of new hobbyists can access them and find what they need.

In the olden days of herpetoculture, it was the mail and the phone. Information took a long time to relay, husbandry breakthroughs? Haha. Once a year conferences and shows were about it. Now we are much better off. I have seen threads change people minds in the span of an hour. I know this because they have told me what they read here had effected them so profoundly that it changed thier whole thoughs and beliefs.

Powerful stuff.

The first line of battle takes place in the classifieds. Here. On kingsnake. Other forums. It takes place at member shows, conferences, meetings.

We need to take ownership of our hobby and what is going on here in the U.S first. The country of Columbia and it's potential frog farm is very nice and I hope it happens, but lets complile the info here first. Lets get a cannon of ethics going here first.

For pete's sake, Julio and I both cannot even figure out if we are allowed to keep Azureus!!!

We have some work to do.....


----------



## Philsuma

zBrinks said:


> Phil, my offer still stands to send you an example of ASN's TMP - I have a WIP copy of the Heterixalus madagascariensis TMP I can email you. TWI/ASN needs volunteers to gather the information and compile it into a form that has already been established. Not only will this provide information on the natural history of the species, but provide husbandry information, as well as a way to maintain the population in the hobby, thus removing or at least severely reducing the need for WC imports.
> 
> Please, anyone interested in putting the work in to help this project succeed, please contact me and I'll put you in touch with the project overseer. Chances are, you'd be able to work with a species of your choice, or several of them, for that matter.


Zach...I'm not ignoring you or TWI. I do have some knowledge of what you guys are currently doing and I do support all of it. I just need to streamline my energy at this point. Even though it appears I have a lot of free time ...I'm trying to get a few things going right now.


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## jaree2

zBrinks said:


> Please, anyone interested in putting the work in to help this project succeed, please contact me and I'll put you in touch with the project overseer. Chances are, you'd be able to work with a species of your choice, or several of them, for that matter.





Philsuma said:


> We have some work to do.....


I'm not sure I speak for many, but I've been following this thread word for word as it has developed. I haven't been in the hobby long, but as I posted some time ago, my interest and enjoyment of this hobby is very much intertwined with my passion for seeing these species succeed in their natural habitats, and this information is eye-opening.

My point is, as someone who has not been involved in the hobby for many years and who lacks experience with an array of species, its easy to feel relatively useless when confronted with these issues. I'm pretty confident there are probably others like me, chomping at the bit to help but not really knowing how to do so. 

I guess I was hoping you could throw out some ideas for involvement, I might not have the years of experience or infinite time, but certainly no lack of excitement or passion for the issue. I'm sure there are others of my 'stature' wondering the same thing, and it could be a great resource for a grassroots effort.


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## fred

I try to keep track here, but it all goes very fast, and i have some work to do in between, so forgive me if i can't answer immediatly..

Stace; your posts are very long and a little confusing, but i think your question was what to do with all the illegal frogs that are allready in the hobby.
I did gave you an answer on that question; read permalink # 232.

The words in this link are offcourse just a suggestion, you can read in permalink # 241 that the most important thing is to stop the smuggling, not to nail people to the wall.

In your last posts you are very honest and write this: 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Let me make this straight and simple... I'm a hobbiest and not an activist. I keep frogs because I enjoy them, not because I'm looking for a cause to support or because I want to change the world. Do I care about the issues in the hobby?? Sure, but I honestly care more about finding out how to get this to breed and that to acclimate better... and looking at some honestly cool animals. For all the activist out there don't think I'm belittling you... it's not that. I commend you for you efforts but don't always assume that everyone should follow in your footsteps and be as active or become the activist you are. That type of mentality will get you the "PETA" like label and we all know you don't want that. Just remember, for some people it IS just a hobby and they want to enjoy their frogs and further the HOBBY... not save the world (or rainforests in this particular case, LOL). More power to all those out there that do and good luck...'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's all ok, but why then do you spoil so much words and energy here?


Hi poimandres,

To answer your question; The Cali-Zoo works also with education.
I don't know if this is a good system, it could also 'awake the sleeping dogs'..if you aks me..
People who have nothing and hear that these frogs can bring them actually some fast cash don't need much time to think about it, food today is more important then frogs tomorrow.

They also give a lot of education to people; a lot of schools visit the Zoo, and there is a place where they have video's running where the importants of nature-protection and the animals is being explained, specially about the frogs and the conservation program.
I think on you tube you can also find video's from the Cali-Zoo project (and see some nice frogs they have there).


----------



## thedude

ok, to the people saying its the country of origins fault the frogs are coming in, and not ours...thats BS. it is partially our fault as well. they dont have the man power to track every single smuggling operation, illegal logging, gold mine, illegal chemical spill, drug ring, etc., etc. but we as the consumers can say NO. buy FSC certified wood, buy shade grown organic coffee, buy known legal frogs. its that easy people. dont place the blame on someone else for making something bad available to you. YOU are still responsible for taking it.

if a drug dealer offers you cocaine and you take it and you die....is it their fault because they made it available to you? maybe a little, but not completely. no, its your fault for taking it. 

and if you think it wont make a difference by buying good products (wood, fish, beef, and frogs) then thats fine. the people that do good in this world dont need your negative impact.


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## skylsdale

This thread is progressing faster than I have the time/energy to continue participating in it (dang job keeps getting in the way). And I hope it remains civil, even though some post(er)s are becoming increasingly vitriolic as it progresses.

But I do want to point something out:



sbreland said:


> _Think about it this way... recycling. can recycling be effective? Sure, but it takes a combined movement to see any real results. One person choosing to recycle or not to isn't going to change much so you need everyone in the community to do it (or at least the vast majority) but even if you get that you will still have SOME that decide to not recycle._


As far as actual numbers are concerned, even if EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES started recycling, it still wouldn't make much of an impact on the waste stream we have created. The reason being: residential waste comprises just under 5% of the total waste created in the U.S.--the other 95% or so is from industrial and commercial sources. So even if I "do my part" in the situation, it will hardly even make a dent...let alone curb or turn things around. At some point the entire _system_ needs to be changed and modified.

So on one hand we, as hobbyists and consumers and end-of-the-line purchasers, need to change our buying habits and exert a little extra patience toward what is available or what might someday become available through more sustainable means. But on the other hand, we also need to address the system as a whole, because it will keep on chugging along unless something is done to modify or stop it.

Everyone keeps making this a highly polarized issue: it's not a binary situation we're dealing with. It's a highly complex issue: BOTH aspects (the micro and macro levels) need to be considered and reformed, because they affect and influence one another. We can't say it's completely "their" fault...nor can we say it's completely "our" fault. It's a combination, and we need to deal with it as such.

If we're standing on the edge of a river and start seeing people who are being swept down by the current, it's a good thing to step in and rescue those people from the water. But after a while, when person after person after person is swept down, and we continue to rescue them...at some point we need to figure out who is upstream chucking people in the water and then deal with that issue, too. We have to deal with both the effects as well as the cause.


----------



## fred

Another thing i hear all the time is:

If there would be breeding-farms people will wait untill the frogs are there legal, otherwise they don't wait..what kind of a policy is that?

Just keep hands of protected animals, period.

Then, people don't wait; look at the new frogs Mark Pepper brings in the market legal, which are allready there illegal before he has the chance, also in the U.S.!

Like i see it from a distance, you have to get your things in order overthere, clubs; let everybody registrate their frogs and where they got them from.
Start a system you can work with.

Don't accept frogs with no or a doubtfull history anymore.

And talk with the respondsible authorities, teach them about the frogs and how to recognize them.

And something we say in Holland a lot: if you want to change the world, start with yourself..


----------



## AlexRible

I just wanted to add, Unlike Holland and Colombia, The USA has no specific law restricting this species. We do however have a law restricting Mysteriosus, A not uncommon frog in dutch collections... . Not that i am passing blame. This law seems to be working. You will find very few people here willing to risk all their frogs by keeping Mysteriosus.


----------



## ChrisK

Which scenario would be more realistic - 

trying to get hobbyists worldwide, who might not belong to any forum, or just might not care, to not desire any protected frog;

or try and prevent protected frogs from being exported from the countries they're in?

of course you want both, but which would be more effective?


----------



## sbreland

skylsdale said:


> If we're standing on the edge of a river and start seeing people who are being swept down by the current, it's a good thing to step in and rescue those people from the water. But after a while, when person after person after person is swept down, and we continue to rescue them...at some point we need to figure out who is upstream chucking people in the water and then deal with that issue, too. We have to deal with both the effects as well as the cause.


Ron, 
This is a great analogy and pretty much hits this on the head. 

fred,
I'll keep this semi short. I waste the words and energy because at this particular moment I have them. In a couple of weeks... not so much (really not at all). I am just kinda tired of hearing people blowing the warning whistle and telling people to be more responsible but having no legitimate logical plans in place to do anything about it. There are some good ideas here but until ideas become action then this is just another 30 page DB debate that produced no results. Mark Pepper and Understory are results. TWI/ASN are results. Let's see who in this thread with the ideas is willing to turn their ideas into results... honestly I hope it happens.


----------



## skylsdale

ChrisK said:


> Which scenario would be more realistic -
> 
> trying to get hobbyists worldwide, who might not belong to any forum, or just might not care, to not desire any protected frog;
> 
> or try and prevent protected frogs from being exported from the countries they're in?


Knowing the politics of both...I would say they are both equally unrealistic.


----------



## fred

Hi Alex,

Mysteriosus is illegal in Holland.
You will find not many people in Holland, risking all of their frogs to keep mysteriosus..

Many years ago they came in from Denmark, with papers! we thought....
The papers where false.

In Germany however, many people keep them, and they are even been sold in the open on the big rept./amph. days in Hamm.

Hi Chris,

To answer you question: you can't prevent frogs being exported from their country's without stopping hobbyist world-wide to keep on buying them..
and, if they only desire the frogs, it wouldn't be much of a problem..

So #1.


----------



## gyuen

fred said:


> Another thing i hear all the time is:
> 
> If there would be breeding-farms people will wait untill the frogs are there legal, otherwise they don't wait..what kind of a policy is that?
> 
> Just keep hands of protected animals, period.
> 
> Then, people don't wait; look at the new frogs Mark Pepper brings in the market legal, which are allready there illegal before he has the chance, also in the U.S.!
> 
> Like i see it from a distance, you have to get your things in order overthere, clubs; let everybody registrate their frogs and where they got them from.
> Start a system you can work with.
> 
> Don't accept frogs with no or a doubtfull history anymore.
> 
> And talk with the respondsible authorities, teach them about the frogs and how to recognize them.
> 
> And something we say in Holland a lot: if you want to change the world, start with yourself..


I do hope you do donate some money to Mark, since you can not have any frogs. I put Mark in my highest priority to order than others here. I don't like to just talk about helping and not actually doing something.

g


----------



## AlexRible

fred said:


> Hi Alex,
> 
> Mysteriosus is illegal in Holland.
> You will find not many people in Holland, risking all of their frogs to keep mysteriosus..
> 
> Many years ago they came in from Denmark, with papers! we thought....
> The papers where false.
> 
> In Germany however, many people keep them, and they are even been sold in the open on the big rept./amph. days in Hamm.


I am sorry fred, I stand corrected, but I believe my point is still valid. Mysteriosus are unable to be imported to the USA. Paper work or no paper work.


----------



## fred

Hi Gyuen,

I'm affraid that i'm not donating any money..but i do my best to do what i can in other ways.
Good to read you wait and buy your frogs legal by Mark and give your support there!

Hi Alex,

No problem, and a good thing that mysteriosus is not allowed in the USA; you do know what happend years ago, i think?

Only I wander; if mysteriosus is not alowed, why do they accept frogs like histrionicus, lehmanni, granuliferus, sylvatica etc. ?

That's a strange policy..


----------



## sbreland

fred said:


> Only I wander; if mysteriosus is not alowed, why do they accept frogs like histrionicus, lehmanni, granuliferus, sylvatica etc. ?
> 
> That's a strange policy..


Because histrionicus, lehmanni, granuliferus, and sylvaticus HAVE BEEN legally imported in the past... that's why. Mysteriosus NEVER have and have NEVER been legally exported from Peru. That's the difference that you refuse to accept... Colombia (and CR of course) HAS let those frogs out legally before but Peru never authorized Mystis... EVER. 

It is just me or do we seem to be going around in circles here?


----------



## thedude

sbreland said:


> Because histrionicus, lehmanni, granuliferus, and sylvaticus HAVE BEEN legally imported in the past... that's why. Mysteriosus NEVER have and have NEVER been legally exported from Peru. That's the difference that you refuse to accept... Colombia (and CR of course) HAS let those frogs out legally before but Peru never authorized Mystis... EVER.
> 
> It is just me or do we seem to be going around in circles here?


why was vazolinii legal before mark brought in the first shipment then? peru never allowed any to leave there before mark. so why did we have them legally from EU? im not saying your wrong, just curious. doesnt make sense to outlaw mysteriosus and not others from peru that werent ever imported.


----------



## AlexRible

fred said:


> Hi Gyuen,
> 
> I'm affraid that i'm not donating any money..but i do my best to do what i can in other ways.
> Good to read you wait and buy your frogs legal by Mark and give your support there!
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> No problem, and a good thing that mysteriosus is not allowed in the USA; you do know what happend years ago, i think?
> 
> Only I wander; if mysteriosus is not alowed, why do they accept frogs like histrionicus, lehmanni, granuliferus, sylvatica etc. ?
> 
> That's a strange policy..


I heard that there was a shipment of mysterious ceased many years back and given to a German breeder making them legal in many European countries. Is this what you speak of?

All the others have been exported from their country of origin in the past. Any captive bread animals would be considered legal and able to be brought in.

But anyways i pmed you back fred. I am not sure if my messages where lost.

-Alex


----------



## fred

Hi sbreland,

I think you're right; you do keep on going round in circles overthere..

Hi Alex,

Mysteriosus is never legalized in the EU, only the Germans can keep them without problems.

About 10 or 15 years ago -i don't exactly remember- they where allmost wiped out by German smugglers, to frustration of Inibico who was doing research and tried to conservate the frogs; they exactly knew the names from the smugglers, and could do nothing, and things are stil the same today..


----------



## Philsuma

despite all the circles and circles....all the cool analogies to trash and wood products.....

We can derive one thing from this monstrosity of a thread.

It drew over 10,000 views (not all are unique, I know) in like 48 hours and it's not because a few people wanted to see the "big boyz" spar....or for a chance to see me "do something".

People are honestly interested in what is going on with these animals ouside of their vivs. I am sure of it. They want to know more. They crave knowledge and completeness. This isn't the "goldfish bowl hobby". It's a unique hobby with a fairly accurate degree of scholarship and academia. More people want to contribute to conservation efforts, to some sort of degree than not and I like that. Most hobbyists want to do the right thing and just need information and to be aimed in the right direction. That's my observation.....


----------



## skylsdale

thedude said:


> why was vazolinii legal before mark brought in the first shipment then? peru never allowed any to leave there before mark. so why did we have them legally from EU?


I don't think they actually were legal...and that's the point some have been trying to make. Info on the paperwork can be falsified to make them appear legal, and if it's a species that isn't as high profile as mysteriosus, makes it easier to slip under the radar.

But someone can correct me if I'm wrong here as there might be something in that situation I'm unaware of. But from what I understand, only the UE frogs are technically the legally obtained and imported/exported ones. What can then easily happen is that, once the legal frogs are released into the hobby, the others can then be released and distributed and purchased under the assumption that since someone is working with and selling the species properly, then all individuals of that species in the country must be as well.


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> Hi sbreland,
> 
> I think you're right; you do keep on going round in circles overthere..


fred, once and for all, the circles are because you keep asking a question that keeps getting answered. There's no way you can prove a frog is illegal if it has been legally exported in the past - is that easily understood?


----------



## Web Wheeler

ChrisK said:


> fred, once and for all, the circles are because you keep asking a question that keeps getting answered. There's no way you can prove a frog is illegal if it has been legally exported in the past - is that easily understood?


Well, what if the frog showed up BEFORE its legal export. What do you call that?


----------



## sbreland

thedude said:


> why was vazolinii legal before mark brought in the first shipment then? peru never allowed any to leave there before mark. so why did we have them legally from EU? im not saying your wrong, just curious. doesnt make sense to outlaw mysteriosus and not others from peru that werent ever imported.


Easy answer... search for "Divossen" (not sure that's how it's spelled though) and it will tell you everything you want to know. It's been discussed many times on here.


----------



## ChrisK

Web Wheeler said:


> Well, what if the frog showed up BEFORE its legal export. What do you call that?


Depends on what the regulations of the time were, but by what you mean it would probably be illegal


----------



## Philsuma

Well....An East Coast Medical Doctor brought in the EU _Vanzolinii. _

They were part of a much larger shipment- over 20K, I believe. I would like to think that a professional person would not ever risk an expensive medical license in order to bring in questionable frogs that 9 out of 10 people in the hobby will soon either directly own or hear about within months.

but...as always.....feel free to question. I do.


----------



## fred

I think it is time to let all people who are protecting their own ..., -probably because they own illegal frogs- continue to deny the situation.

For all the others, who are serious and want to do something about it, come together and talk!
Come with more ideas (i've seen allready very good ones) and make it happen!
This is going on allready for much too long..


----------



## ChrisK

I guess it wasn't easily understood.


----------



## Vermfly

fred said:


> I think it is time to let all people who are protecting their own ..., -probably because they own illegal frogs- continue to deny the situation.


That's kind of a dickish thing to say. I don't own a single frog but I agree with Philsuma and ChrisK. If at any time a frog has legally been imported from the EU or anywhere else according to the laws of the United States then the offspring of those frogs is legal. You've lost the real point of your argument in your insane witch hunt to prove that someone here is doing something illegal. The point is that we should all do our best to support conservation and avoid supporting illegal smuggling by buying our frogs from reputable sources.


----------



## sbreland

Philsuma said:


> Well....An East Coast Medical Doctor brought in the EU _Vanzolinii. _
> 
> They were part of a much larger shipment- over 20K, I believe. I would like to think that a professional person would not ever risk an expensive medical license in order to bring in questionable frogs that 9 out of 10 people in the hobby will soon either directly own or hear about within months.
> 
> but...as always.....feel free to question. I do.


Wow... those are some pretty strong allegations, or at least veiled insinuations. I'd be careful, but to each their own I guess...
On a side note... you must not know what you can lose a medical license for, but that is a totally separate arguement not even worth going into...


----------



## Philsuma

sbreland said:


> Wow... those are some pretty strong allegations, or at least veiled insinuations. I'd be careful, but to each their own I guess...
> On a side note... you must not know what you can lose a medical license for, but that is a totally separate arguement not even worth going into...


I was careful to make no such insinuations.I thought I was as objective with that as possible. Are you asking me if I think that person's shipment of frogs was legal - YES I do. I am not questioning it.....but...YOU may feel free to question it. Is that clearer?

I think you are Assuming that I am "against everything" huh? You'll be suprised to know, that I WANT Chris to be able to not have any flack with those frogs. This is not an all black and white matter. It's complex. Don't be so quick to judge me or place me on one side of the fence or the other.

I have a professional license and although it is not an MD...I'm gonna have to assume a federal felony conviction would not "go well" with any professional license - needless to say one's ability to use it would be hampered by incarceration.


----------



## sbreland

I don't question it but you decided to bring it up, not me...


Philsuma said:


> I was careful to make no such insinuations.I thought I was as objective with that as possible. Are you asking me if I think that person's shipment of frogs was legal - YES I do. I am not questioning it.....but...YOU may feel free to question it. Is that clearer?
> 
> I think you are Assuming that I am "against everything" huh? You'll be suprised to know, that I WANT Chris to be able to not have any flack with those frogs. This is not an all black and white matter. It's complex. Don't be so quick to judge me or place me on one side of the fence or the other.
> 
> I have a professional license and although it is not an MD...I'm gonna have to assume a federal felony conviction would not "go well" with any professional license - needless to say one's ability to use it would be hampered by incarceration.


----------



## StarFrog

Surprisingly I have come away with more than when this thread started, in fact when I do decide to bless myself with two or three frogs I shall make sure they are or have been sourced from places like Mark Pepper's Understory as I want to support Captive Breeding from a well respected and documented source.

I hate to say this, but if I have any doubt about even common CB frogs I shall pass.

One last thing I wanted to inquire about? Frog Amnesty? So much confusion abounds, why not set a date for people to register (perhaps anonymously) the frogs they have so open and transparent breeding of current CB stock can occur? I know its never 100% perfect, but perhaps a chance to get the legality of the frogs which are breeding well in captivity squared away? This is probably a stupid question, but hey I am new so we should get some leeway with them .

Matt


----------



## puckplaya32

thedude said:


> why was vazolinii legal before mark brought in the first shipment then? peru never allowed any to leave there before mark. so why did we have them legally from EU? im not saying your wrong, just curious. doesnt make sense to outlaw mysteriosus and not others from peru that werent ever imported.


For your information, a shipment of vanzolinii was confiscated and given to Harold Divosen. The offspring of these animals were considered legal in the home country of Divosen (cant recall which country). Some other EU countries accepted this paperwork and others did not. By this time many other smuggled animals had begun breeding and are impossible to tell from Divosens animals at this point, are essentially grandfathered in. Despite this, paperwork was applied for and received for export to the US even though it is a violation of the lacey act(which is only a law that applies within the United States). Only recently have they been legally exported from Peru by UE.


In addition to the original vanzolinii imported into the US, the animals that are likely laundered are the histos/sylvaticus and blue jeans that have been recently imported from EU by a certain New York importer, these imports arrived just shortly after the smuggled shipments arrive in Germany.

Make no mistake their are legal histos/sylvaticus and blue jeans in the United States some even bred to several generations, but the majority of anything recently acquired likely left their home countries without that particular countries permission.


----------



## Philsuma

StarFrog said:


> Surprisingly I have come away with more than when this thread started, in fact when I do decide to bless myself with two or three frogs I shall make sure they are or have been sourced from places like Mark Pepper's Understory as I want to support Captive Breeding from a well respected and documented source.
> 
> I hate to say this, but if I have any doubt about even common CB frogs I shall pass.


THIS sounds like victory, folks. One hobbyist at a time.



StarFrog said:


> One last thing I wanted to inquire about? Frog Amnesty? So much confusion abounds, why not set a date for people to register (perhaps anonymously) the frogs they have so open and transparent breeding of current CB stock can occur? I know its never 100% perfect, but perhaps a chance to get the legality of the frogs which are breeding well in captivity squared away? This is probably a stupid question, but hey I am new so we should get some leeway with them .
> Matt


No stupid questions. Exotic animal amnesty programes have been successful recently. One in Miami, at the zoo brought in a lot of animals and not just illegals either. Some animals that the owners could not care for. Connnecticut just had an amnesty day too. Don't know if that one was more political or how it turned out but to answer your question - I'm sorry to say, I haven't given much thought to a frog amnesty. It would take a lot of planning and I think have a few more issues and ideas ahead of it, to be honest.


----------



## Philsuma

puckplaya32 said:


> For your information, a shipment of vanzolinii was confiscated and given to Harold Divosen. The offspring of these animals were considered legal in the home country of Divosen (cant recall which country). Some other EU countries accepted this paperwork and others did not. By this time many other smuggled animals had begun breeding and are impossible to tell from Divosens animals at this point, are essentially grandfathered in. Despite this, paperwork was applied for and received for export to the US even though it is a violation of the lacey act(which is only a law that applies within the United States). Only recently have they been legally exported from Peru by UE.
> 
> 
> In addition to the original vanzolinii imported into the US, the animals that are likely laundered are the histos/sylvaticus and blue jeans that have been recently imported from EU by a certain New York importer, these imports arrived just shortly after the smuggled shipments arrive in Germany.
> 
> Make no mistake their are legal histos/sylvaticus and blue jeans in the United States some even bred to several generations, but the majority of anything recently acquired likely left their home countries without that particular countries permission.


Thank you for stepping up and posting this!


----------



## skylsdale

Philsuma said:


> Thank you for stepping up and posting this!


I agree...it was a better and more thorough explanation than what I had time to post earlier.


----------



## thedude

puckplaya32 said:


> For your information, a shipment of vanzolinii was confiscated and given to Harold Divosen. The offspring of these animals were considered legal in the home country of Divosen (cant recall which country). Some other EU countries accepted this paperwork and others did not. By this time many other smuggled animals had begun breeding and are impossible to tell from Divosens animals at this point, are essentially grandfathered in. Despite this, paperwork was applied for and received for export to the US even though it is a violation of the lacey act(which is only a law that applies within the United States). Only recently have they been legally exported from Peru by UE.


thank you! i still have a problem with them as they were smuggled though. was peru notified about this confiscated shipment? or did the country that confiscated them just drop the ball on that one?

any insight on the EU varaderos, sisa bassleri, intermedius, panguana lamasi or the yurimaguensis that have came in? none of them were legally exported from peru before understory. except the lamasi still havent to my knowledge.

also, make no mistake, i know these animals are considered legal by our government. that doesnt mean they werent smuggled to europe first though. THATS what i have a problem with. not only that, but now all of these people have the EU vanzolinii, instead of the ones from mark. that greatly reduces the amount of conservation funds they could be bringing in.


----------



## skylsdale

thedude said:


> also, make no mistake, i know these animals are considered legal by our government. that doesnt mean they werent smuggled to europe first though. THATS what i have a problem with. not only that, but now all of these people have the EU vanzolinii, instead of the ones from mark. that greatly reduces the amount of conservation funds they could be bringing in.


Exactly...and that's the whole rub of the situation.


----------



## puckplaya32

thedude said:


> thank you! i still have a problem with them as they were smuggled though. was peru notified about this confiscated shipment? or did the country that confiscated them just drop the ball on that one?
> 
> any insight on the EU varaderos, sisa bassleri, intermedius, panguana lamasi or the yurimaguensis that have came in? none of them were legally exported from peru before understory. except the lamasi still havent to my knowledge.
> 
> also, make no mistake, i know these animals are considered legal by our government. that doesnt mean they werent smuggled to europe first though. THATS what i have a problem with. not only that, but now all of these people have the EU vanzolinii, instead of the ones from mark. that greatly reduces the amount of conservation funds they could be bringing in.



To the best of my knowledge Peru was not informed as is the likely the case of many laundered species. Divosen's home country just considered his animals offspring legal. If someone knows otherwise please speak up.

The case with EU Veraderos is similar to many other animals, they were smuggled into EU and imported across the pond with paperwork with insufficient information(paperwork is not morph specific). In addition to that the animals never left Peru legally, again a violation of the lacey act(making them illegal in the US), but impossible to see that they are different than UE's animals at this point. I dont know for sure about the other species you listed but it is very likely the same case.

I dont believe that USF&W is aware of the status of many of our frogs, as it is their job to keep track of more animals than they could possibly know the legality and issues surrounded by each species and morph. This is the part where Phils suggestion of modern accurate "history" of the hobby, and accurate pictures and descriptions of each morph would greatly help.

I too have a problem with the way things have appeared in both EU and our own country, I myself have purchased frogs in the past that I now believe to be part of this cycle. The way these frogs have showed up in the past does greatly undermine people like Mark and what they are trying to do. There is nothing we can do about the past as others have mentioned in this thread, we can only improve our hobby for the future. This does start with us the hobbyist, we are the the final result of the smuggling problem. If we were to give F&W the tools to only allow truely legal animals into the country we could start forming the hobby into a much more transparent and honest hobby.


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## Bananaman

A lot of great information on this thread and some compelling arguments. I'd like to welcome Fred to the forums, his and everyone else's input is much appreciated to a noob like me. For me legality is not really an issue (though I would never buy illegally imported frogs) - whether a frog is legal or illegal doesn't concern me as much as the status of the frog in the wild. That being said if a very rare/endangered frog does show up I would like it to be in the best hands possible. 

When I first stumbled on the forums and the hobby I found myself being drawn to the rarer species and steering clear of azureus and other very common frogs. My first purchase was a trio of Southern Variabilis (new at the time here I think) which I have since traded to better hands for some imitators. After getting my SV's I asked myself had azureus been rarer those would have been the frogs I just HAD to have. That type of logic doesnt make sense and since then Ive tried to not let rarity affect my decisions - I try to buy CB frogs from reputable sources. There are so many frogs that are well established in captivity already I see no need for a small keeper like myself to get/need wc/rare imports etc. Thats my humble opinion and I am not trying to preach to anybody!


----------



## fred

It's going the right direction now, stay in the zone..
That's what i'm talking about.
Great.

If somebody have questions; i can't answer nothing untill tomorrow night, cause i'm working out house.
So don't think again i'm not willing to answer questions, i'll check tomorrow night.
Goodluck!


----------



## thedude

puckplaya32 said:


> To the best of my knowledge Peru was not informed as is the likely the case of many laundered species. Divosen's home country just considered his animals offspring legal. If someone knows otherwise please speak up.
> 
> The case with EU Veraderos is similar to many other animals, they were smuggled into EU and imported across the pond with paperwork with insufficient information(paperwork is not morph specific). In addition to that the animals never left Peru legally, again a violation of the lacey act(making them illegal in the US), but impossible to see that they are different than UE's animals at this point. I dont know for sure about the other species you listed but it is very likely the same case.
> 
> I dont believe that USF&W is aware of the status of many of our frogs, as it is their job to keep track of more animals than they could possibly know the legality and issues surrounded by each species and morph. This is the part where Phils suggestion of modern accurate "history" of the hobby, and accurate pictures and descriptions of each morph would greatly help.
> 
> I too have a problem with the way things have appeared in both EU and our own country, I myself have purchased frogs in the past that I now believe to be part of this cycle. The way these frogs have showed up in the past does greatly undermine people like Mark and what they are trying to do. There is nothing we can do about the past as others have mentioned in this thread, we can only improve our hobby for the future. This does start with us the hobbyist, we are the the final result of the smuggling problem. If we were to give F&W the tools to only allow truely legal animals into the country we could start forming the hobby into a much more transparent and honest hobby.


thanks for the great info!

so now im curious. USF&W doesnt know the difference between UE varadero and EU varadero, but we do in a sense. as long as people tell the truth. so when EU bloodline varaderos and the other species i mentioned, show up on the board....what do we do about it? do we do what we have been doing and ignore it? or do we educate people not to buy those? there is only one breeder ive seen with them so far, and i believe talking to them about the issue could help. i know they are a veteran in the hobby, but thats no excuse.

maybe we could make a sticky in the classifieds showing what species, morphs, and bloodlines to steer clear of. if people care, they will follow.

thoughts?


----------



## Roadrunner

Or if they do a sting on recently smuggled animals. At the Ohio show they sold vendors wc turtles and then fined them for buying them. Fined people for selling ALBINO black rat snakes because normal ratsnakes were indigenous to Ohio. Sometimes they don`t check into things for years and then it gets called attention to and they set up a sting. 
Why would the LAcey act be good for 5 years after the sale of the animals? If they revisit recent shipments that the validity is called into question they can reverse the legality of those animals if paperwork has been falsified. That is why I asked that if Ben`s jungle was recently busted for smuggling can the cites paperwork for his shipments to the US for the last 5 years be called into question and possibly reversed to smuggled status on the Lacey act?



ChrisK said:


> fred, once and for all, the circles are because you keep asking a question that keeps getting answered. There's no way you can prove a frog is illegal if it has been legally exported in the past - is that easily understood?


----------



## ChrisK

frogfarm said:


> That is why I asked that if Ben`s jungle was recently busted for smuggling can the cites paperwork for his shipments to the US for the last 5 years be called into question and possibly reversed to smuggled status on the Lacey act?


I don't know if he was busted for smuggling, I heard that he was arrested in Holland with animals that were illegal in Holland.....


----------



## Afemoralis

So let's run with the idea of 'amnesty' for frogs of dubious lineages in the country (we can except those we know are just plain illegal in the US- i.e. mysteriosus). 

Amnesty day comes. Righteous froggers step up and bring thier frogs to the feds.

What happens now? We have the genetic tools to follow the genetic haplotypes in our captive population. (If we at least get a healthy number of folks who own the frogs in question to give up a tissue sample, and no, it doesn't have to be a whole toe!)

So if "new" potentially smuggled frogs show up *and are tested* we could potentially say "well, these are among the haplotypes we have in our captive population... they could be from here " or "nope- that's not in the bank- this is new" (meaning= chances are you're a crook, and bad for the froggies, go directly to jail.)

But who would run it? The feds have their hands full, and we haven't been able to convince the hobby as a whole to buy responsible frogs to begin with (poor mantellas...). 

And who would issue the challenge for on a frog? Surely we don't want witch-hunts like the one in this thread going on in our community? It's divisive, and pretty obnoxious, even if well meaning. The genetic markers we have at our disposal will never be visible. So it will always mean a challenge/test situation.

And it would cost money. Prices are coming down FAST, but it's still a few bucks to run a sequence. Perhaps doable on a club scale for "new imports" once all the ground work is created. 

On the up side, once the US house was in order, we'd be in a better position to fight poaching without taking out the innocent and well-meaning hobbyists. If only because we could produce genetic tools to aid in identification/prosecution. 

Thoughts? Other ideas to make Amnesty work?

-Afemoralis


----------



## Ed

frogfarm said:


> Or if they do a sting on recently smuggled animals. At the Ohio show they sold vendors wc turtles and then fined them for buying them. Fined people for selling ALBINO black rat snakes because normal ratsnakes were indigenous to Ohio. Sometimes they don`t check into things for years and then it gets called attention to and they set up a sting.
> Why would the LAcey act be good for 5 years after the sale of the animals? If they revisit recent shipments that the validity is called into question they can reverse the legality of those animals if paperwork has been falsified. That is why I asked that if Ben`s jungle was recently busted for smuggling can the cites paperwork for his shipments to the US for the last 5 years be called into question and possibly reversed to smuggled status on the Lacey act?


According to USF&W, initial passage of animals into the country does not grant the animal legal status as thier status can be reviewed if necessary. Technically, only the original import violation runs out the clock so the importer can get away with that one. But if the frogs were then sold or thier offspring were then sold or transported over a state border as part of a commercial transaction (which includes trades, buy the cage get the frog etc) all start thier own newer 5 year statute of limitiation. This was discussed early in the thread.


----------



## Ed

puckplaya32 said:


> For your information, a shipment of vanzolinii was confiscated and given to Harold Divosen. The offspring of these animals were considered legal in the home country of Divosen (cant recall which country). Some other EU countries accepted this paperwork and others did not. By this time many other smuggled animals had begun breeding and are impossible to tell from Divosens animals at this point, are essentially grandfathered in. Despite this, paperwork was applied for and received for export to the US even though it is a violation of the lacey act(which is only a law that applies within the United States). Only recently have they been legally exported from Peru by UE.
> 
> 
> In addition to the original vanzolinii imported into the US, the animals that are likely laundered are the histos/sylvaticus and blue jeans that have been recently imported from EU by a certain New York importer, these imports arrived just shortly after the smuggled shipments arrive in Germany.
> 
> Make no mistake their are legal histos/sylvaticus and blue jeans in the United States some even bred to several generations, but the majority of anything recently acquired likely left their home countries without that particular countries permission.


This may actually not a violation of the Lacey act. The frogs were confiscated and if the laws in that country allow the legal release to the hobby, with legal export of captive offspring. Then there is not a Lacey act violation in bringing the offspring to the US as the legalities of the exporting country allow it. If the frogs were smuggled into the US then they would all be illegal unless released to the hobby by the goverment. 

Ed


----------



## sbreland

Sea,
Good to see you still around and having good input.


----------



## puckplaya32

Ed said:


> This may actually not a violation of the Lacey act. The frogs were confiscated and if the laws in that country allow the legal release to the hobby, with legal export of captive offspring. Then there is not a Lacey act violation in bringing the offspring to the US as the legalities of the exporting country allow it. If the frogs were smuggled into the US then they would all be illegal unless released to the hobby by the goverment.
> 
> Ed


(a) The term “fish or wildlife” means any wild animal, whether alive or dead, including without limitation any wild mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod, coelenterate, or other invertebrate, whether or not bred, hatched, or born in captivity, and includes any part, product, egg, or offspring thereof.

§ 3372. Prohibited acts
(a) Offenses other than marking offenses
It is unlawful for any person—
(1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;
(2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce—
(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or IN VIOLATION OF ANY FOREIGN LAW;

Emphasis in bold is mine.

Source: United States Code: Title 16,3371. Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute

I m no lawyer, but I must disagree with you Ed on the basis that it would still be in violation of unlawfully removing Peruvian wildlife which under the lacy act would make them unlawful to possess within the United States


----------



## Paul G

Philsuma said:


> Well....An East Coast Medical Doctor brought in the EU _Vanzolinii. _
> 
> They were part of a much larger shipment- over 20K, I believe. I would like to think that a professional person would not ever risk an expensive medical license in order to bring in questionable frogs that 9 out of 10 people in the hobby will soon either directly own or hear about within months.
> 
> but...as always.....feel free to question. I do.


As someone pointed out. That is a pretty thinly veiled description. Whatever your opinions or points you were making here still kind of drag this persons' rep through the mud.
Not cool IMO.


----------



## Michael Shrom

puckplaya32 said:


> (a) The term “fish or wildlife” means any wild animal, whether alive or dead, ir sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation
> I m no lawyer, but I must disagree with you Ed on the basis that it would still be in violation of unlawfully removing Peruvian wildlife which under the lacy act would make them unlawful to possess within the United States


If it comes in with USFW paperwork it is legal. The importer is required to keep track of where he sells the imported animals. If USFW has questions later the animals can be recalled by them. This rarely happens. As long as you aren't misrepresenting the frogs to USFW their import paperwork makes the animals legal.


----------



## puckplaya32

Michael Shrom said:


> If it comes in with USFW paperwork it is legal. The importer is required to keep track of where he sells the imported animals. If USFW has questions later the animals can be recalled by them. This rarely happens. As long as you aren't misrepresenting the frogs to USFW their import paperwork makes the animals legal.


michael refer to permalink 322, it does not grant legal status


----------



## thedude

gothaicus said:


> As someone pointed out. That is a pretty thinly veiled description. Whatever your opinions or points you were making here still kind of drag this persons' rep through the mud.
> Not cool IMO.



i didnt think what he said was insulting in any way. what exactly is the problem? how did he "drag this persons rep through the mud"? i dont think ive ever seen phil say anything insulting to someone in the way you guys are describing it.


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## Paul G

He could have just said a "breeder" but he chose to describe the person.
I didn't think it was an insult but some people might look at said described person in another light cause of his post.


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## Tony

gothaicus said:


> He could have just said a "breeder" but he chose to describe the person.
> I didn't think it was an insult but some people might look at said described person in another light cause of his post.


Because of Phil's post, or because of that person's actions? It was a short, simple, factual description with no emotional bias.I'm not sure which of the MDs here he is referring to, but if that person's reputation is damaged by a simple description of a purchase he made it isn't Phil's fault, it is the fault of the person that made the questionable purchase.


----------



## Paul G

Tony said:


> Because of Phil's post, or because of that person's actions? It was a short, simple, factual description with no emotional bias.I'm not sure which of the MDs here he is referring to, but if that person's reputation is damaged by a simple description of a purchase he made it isn't Phil's fault, it is the fault of the person that made the questionable purchase.


Cause of Phil's post. If I had made that post I would have made the person I was talking about non descriptive. Thats just my opinion.
Some people get so caught up in their egos they forget some people make a living from this hobby and have reputations to uphold that can be slighted by "harmless" forum banter.


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## Ed

puckplaya32 said:


> (a) The term “fish or wildlife” means any wild animal, whether alive or dead, including without limitation any wild mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian, fish, mollusk, crustacean, arthropod, coelenterate, or other invertebrate, whether or not bred, hatched, or born in captivity, and includes any part, product, egg, or offspring thereof.
> 
> § 3372. Prohibited acts
> (a) Offenses other than marking offenses
> It is unlawful for any person—
> (1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;
> (2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce—
> (A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or IN VIOLATION OF ANY FOREIGN LAW;
> 
> Emphasis in bold is mine.
> 
> Source: United States Code: Title 16,3371. Definitions | LII / Legal Information Institute
> 
> I m no lawyer, but I must disagree with you Ed on the basis that it would still be in violation of unlawfully removing Peruvian wildlife which under the lacy act would make them unlawful to possess within the United States



This a grey area but there is ample precedent to indicate that this is not the interpretation applied to the law. The precedent is that if the second country has a legal process allowing the confiscated animals to be released as legal animals, then the US has the option to the animals to be legal. If it does so, then those animals are legal. 
A short list of the species that have come into the USA and been accepted as legal by USF&W under those exact conditions, 
Australian White's Treefrogs, Bearded Dragons, Australian Pygmy Monitors, the massive confiscations placed by the Turtle Survivial Alliance, to name a couple. Furthermore along those lines, this has occured with animals confiscated in the USA. For example Black Palm cockatoos and thread billed cockatoos have ended up at a private breeding facility in Florida from confiscations at the US border. In the 1980s, the policy was to destroy all those birds but a change in policy allowed thier placement.


----------



## Afemoralis

Those lovely morph posters that were mentioned earlier in the thread- could they be used as "border guards"?

It was pointed out that 'morph guides' exist for many of the species groups of Dendrobatids.

If arranged by country of origin, and then color and pattern- they could be very useful to frog population protection/anti-smuggling.

If we got the hobby oldtimers (sorry about that term... what would you prefer? Ancients? The wise-n-grizzled?) together with frog biologists like the Dendrobates.org guys, we could have at least a baseline as to what has been in this country in the past.

The posters could be created in a simple schematic (The snaps I've seen of the Histrionicus posters are lovely) with size, and some rating of concern....( i.e. Endangered, Never in the US, Looks a lot like 6B, etc). (Is Kerokero still around? She'd know exactly how to design it all...)

That way when Hank shows up at the airport with a box of frogs, Special Agent avid-but-unknowing-of-frogs Lucinda can check the paperwork...
WHERE ARE THESE FROGS COMING FROM?
"Germany ma'am".
MY SHEET SAYS THERE ARE NO POISON FROGS IN GERMANY SIR.
"No Ma'am, they are captive bred by my uncle Hanz."
WHAT SPECIES DID YOU SAY THEY WERE?
"Dendrobates imitator. Ma'am"
MY SHEET SAYS THAT IMITATOR CAN LOOK LIKE THIS, OR THIS, OR THIS... BUT THEY DONT LOOK LIKE YOURS. SIR. YOURS ARE BLACK WITH PURPLE SPOTS"
"..... mmmphmble...... uncle Hanz."
IT ALSO SAYS IMITATOR ARE ABOUT AN INCH LONG. THAT FROG IS THREE. SIR.
"......yeah....well.....it's a big one."
PLEASE STAY HERE SIR. I HAVE TO MAKE A PHONE CALL. MY DOG WILL KEEP YOU COMPANY.
"....nice doggie... Ma'am! Ma'am! He's Drooling! Ma'am?"


Plus, they could be used by general hobbyists as a "Sustainable Seafood" type card for frogs..... "oh, lovely, but critically endangered... think I'll pass"

AND I'll bet that almost everyone would pay $5 for one cause they'd be so darn gorgeous up on the wall.... TWI or whoever could make back the money it would cost to create them. 

AND if we made it into a phone App, we could update it so Understory-style-legal frogs would make it onto the green list, and other countries frog communities could create their own "border guards." 

Just an idea.

Afemoralis


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## seanstew

I think this is a great topic and more threads like this should be openly discussed. Just try to educate yourself prior to speaking so it is a constructive thread and not destructive. 

For the record, I imported Vanzolini for the first time in April 2009. These specimens came directly from Harold Diovson via a well respected frogger in Europe who I have had the pleasure to work with for years and who also works with Mark Pepper. I was issued CITES for this species and further documentation was provided in Europe in order for USFW to accept this shipment. I was told with 100% certainty that these frogs were legal by my trusted European friend. 

This import was in April 2009. There have been Vanzolini in the USA hobby for 2-3 years prior. None of which I imported or even owned. In fact, the EU issued CITES for vanzolini 5 years ago or more and I found the source to be illegal (with the help from friends in Peru) and declined the shipment. 

I imported Vanzolini a second time later in 2009. This second shipment of Vanzolini came from Mark Pepper's stock. I imported because my friend in Europe was having a hard time selling the frogs since vanzolini have been in the EU market for over 5 years. All smuggled specimens I have been told with exception of H.D.'s confiscated line of frogs. I paid for these frogs with the goal that money ultimately went back to Understory to support their cause. It was later discussed with Mark Pepper and my European contact that we would not continue to do this to avoid any competition with direct sales from Understory. No other import of vanzolini was done by me.

Great thread and thank you Philsuma for inviting my participation!

Regards,

Sean Stewart
[email protected]


----------



## seanstew

I also have been told many times that just because a species is listed on the CITES permit, it does not make it legal. In the past 17 years of importing frogs from Europe, I have been told by various exporters that they have legal specimens of species like mysteriosis, minyobates, arboreus, etc AND that exporter had indeed been issued CITES permits by the EU. When I asked USFW to research this prior to importation, they contacted the country of origin to verify there was legal exportation at one time. In the above mentioned cases, USFW has came back to me stating that they cannot confirm legal exportation, so these animals I refused to accept. Confiscation and releasing captive bred offspring may be an exception if permitted by the country of origin. It becomes even more difficult to patrol when the country of origin issues CITES for "farmed" specimens and these "farmed" specimens are actually wild collected. This is when the hobby needs to step up and do the enforcement IMO. Then you have all the species that were grandfathered and the species that have been exported legally in the past but now new morphs are smuggled and traded under the protection of previous legal documentation. The hobby will have to find its accepted ethics and different hobbyist will live by various levels of integrity. It is difficult to do if not all the facts are known and shared. That is why this thread is so useful IMO. 

Thanks for reading!

Sean


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## Philsuma

Thanks for posting Sean, I know you are busy. This is an admittedly tough subject and I hope you, of all people, got the gist of post and saw no offense.


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## stemcellular

Well said, Sean.


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## skylsdale

seanstew said:


> It becomes even more difficult to patrol when the country of origin issues CITES for "farmed" specimens and these "farmed" specimens are actually wild collected. This is when the hobby needs to step up and do the enforcement IMO. *Then you have all the species that were grandfathered and the species that have been exported legally in the past but now new morphs are smuggled and traded under the protection of previous legal documentation.* The hobby will have to find its accepted ethics and different hobbyist will live by various levels of integrity. It is difficult to do if not all the facts are known and shared.


Very good points regarding the issue.


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## Julio

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/54784-donating-rainforest-conservation.html


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## Tony

gothaicus said:


> Cause of Phil's post. If I had made that post I would have made the person I was talking about non descriptive. Thats just my opinion.
> Some people get so caught up in their egos they forget some people make a living from this hobby and have reputations to uphold that can be slighted by "harmless" forum banter.


It was non-descriptive enough that I don't know who he is referring to. I don't see how a simple statement of fact like "Person X imported frog species Y" is damaging unless the import was of questionable legality, in which case any damage is the fault of the person who made the illegal purchase, not the person who posted about it.


----------



## ETwomey

Afemoralis said:


> If we got the hobby oldtimers (sorry about that term... what would you prefer? Ancients? The wise-n-grizzled?) together with frog biologists like the Dendrobates.org guys, we could have at least a baseline as to what has been in this country in the past.


This is exactly what we tried to do with CITES when they wrote their guide a few years back. Jason Brown, Justin Yeager, and myself worked very closely with a woman from CITES for several months trying to get every possible morph, variation, etc, as well as their current status in the hobby. I mean, the thing is 263 pages long and has extremely detailed identification instructions for every frog. In my opinion this guide is impressive and no one is going to make a better one for quite a while.


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## Afemoralis

So... does it exist in digital form? Can we make it exist in digital form?

-Afemoralis


----------



## pl259

-Greater than 99% of us are well meaning, conservation minded hobbiests who would never knowingly purchase a smuggled animal.

-Greater than 99% of us likely own, at least one animal, whose lineage, legal or otherwise, is not 100% known. 

-Debating these legalities is unfocused and counter productive. Painting broad brushed, factless suspicions does not help the cause or benefit the hobby as a whole. 

Ultimately, we are all senior keepers of private collections. Maintaining a positive and constructive community is what gives us our strength. If we allow internal bickering and personal issues to degrade the community, we devolve to a state that would tend to foster, the exact behavior we're trying to avoid.

What's at the core here, is conservation, and how we can best and actively communicate, the issues that threaten it, both on the supply and the demand side. The part best of this thread, is the first hand info laying out the specifc and current threats to those wild Columbian populations. We should all take note of the species involved. We should continue to elevate these specifics as they arise.

We should also look beyond what is currently considered legal, because soon it may not be. Like it or not, the importing of these animals is a for profit business, whether done legally or not. Personally, I for one made the choice several years ago not to buy any of the legal, WC Pumilio that were coming in. Whether they're best guess or site specific to the nanometer, means little to me. What's of greatest concern is not where they came from, but where the 1000's upon 1000's went. How long can the wild populations truely sustain this? Do we even know?

Let's pick the battles to fight, not between each other, but between our own hearts and minds, and what makes sense beyond our own collections.

Kumbaya my froggy brothers (and sisters)


----------



## Afemoralis

Ric Sanchez said:


> This is exactly what we tried to do with CITES when they wrote their guide a few years back. Jason Brown, Justin Yeager, and myself worked very closely with a woman from CITES for several months trying to get every possible morph, variation, etc, as well as their current status in the hobby. I mean, the thing is 263 pages long and has extremely detailed identification instructions for every frog. In my opinion this guide is impressive and no one is going to make a better one for quite a while.


If this document was modified to reflect the status of the hobby in the USA, could we draw a line?

A question for the folks who transfer frogs between continents: I'm under the impression that at this point pretty much all of the legal shipments of frogs are coming to North America, and that most frogs actively imported from Europe are recent (and perhaps shady) additions to the hobby over there. Is this true? or are there long-term captive populations that the Eurofroggers have maintained that are not in the North American Pool? Or another way of asking: What happens if we just say "no more frog shipments from Europe"?

-Afemoralis


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## Tony

Afemoralis said:


> So... does it exist in digital form? Can we make it exist in digital form?
> 
> -Afemoralis


Here you go.


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## ETwomey

Tony said:


> Here you go.


Unfortunately that is only the first ~26 pages. I've got a PDF of the whole 263 page document on my computer, but I don't know how kosher it would be sending it around, seeing as how they cost $30 Canadian.


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## Tony

Ric Sanchez said:


> Unfortunately that is only the first ~26 pages. I've got a PDF of the whole 263 page document on my computer, but I don't know how kosher it would be sending it around, seeing as how they cost $30 Canadian.


That's weird, I downloaded it from that link a while back and it was the full paper...


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## puckplaya32

Ric Sanchez said:


> Unfortunately that is only the first ~26 pages. I've got a PDF of the whole 263 page document on my computer, but I don't know how kosher it would be sending it around, seeing as how they cost $30 Canadian.



I too have the complete document on PDF, but something along this line with more of specific emphasise on legality of the species involved in the hobby and including updated morphs and species.


----------



## Afemoralis

Ric Sanchez said:


> This is exactly what we tried to do with CITES when they wrote their guide a few years back. Jason Brown, Justin Yeager, and myself worked very closely with a woman from CITES for several months trying to get every possible morph, variation, etc, as well as their current status in the hobby. I mean, the thing is 263 pages long and has extremely detailed identification instructions for every frog. In my opinion this guide is impressive and no one is going to make a better one for quite a while.


Forgive me Mr. Sanchez! I forgot to ask the most important questions! 

Do you think it worked? 

How could it be improved?

-Afemoralis


----------



## puckplaya32

pl259 said:


> -Greater than 99% of us are well meaning, conservation minded hobbiests who would never knowingly purchase a smuggled animal.
> 
> -Greater than 99% of us likely own, at least one animal, whose lineage, legal or otherwise, is not 100% known.
> 
> -Debating these legalities is unfocused and counter productive. Painting broad brushed, factless suspicions does not help the cause or benefit the hobby as a whole.
> 
> Ultimately, we are all senior keepers of private collections. Maintaining a positive and constructive community is what gives us our strength. If we allow internal bickering and personal issues to degrade the community, we devolve to a state that would tend to foster, the exact behavior we're trying to avoid.
> 
> What's at the core here, is conservation, and how we can best and actively communicate, the issues that threaten it, both on the supply and the demand side. The part best of this thread, is the first hand info laying out the specifc and current threats to those wild Columbian populations. We should all take note of the species involved. We should continue to elevate these specifics as they arise.
> 
> We should also look beyond what is currently considered legal, because soon it may not be. Like it or not, the importing of these animals is a for profit business, whether done legally or not. Personally, I for one made the choice several years ago not to buy any of the legal, WC Pumilio that were coming in. Whether they're best guess or site specific to the nanometer, means little to me. What's of greatest concern is not where they came from, but where the 1000's upon 1000's went. How long can the wild populations truely sustain this? Do we even know?
> 
> Let's pick the battles to fight, not between each other, but between our own hearts and minds, and what makes sense beyond our own collections.
> 
> Kumbaya my froggy brothers (and sisters)


I dont believe your statement of 99% of us are conservation minded, its been stated by several people in this particular thread that they are not concerned about where their animals are from or their legality. However I can agree with that nearly everyone on this board owns at least one frog that has lineage that is not 100% known and possibly(likely) of illicit orgins.

Simply debating the legalities of some animals is in and of its self unfocused and counter productive, but much of the information is this thread is very constructive in straightening out the legal status of several of the species we keep as hobbyists. And that is exactly what needs to be done to further our little community, before we can proceed to advance our hobby we must understand where it came from and what we have both legally and illegally.

In addition I agree with conservation be a core objective and commend your restraint from purchasing these WC pums.


----------



## Philsuma

puckplaya32 said:


> I too have the complete document on PDF, but something along this line with more of specific emphasise on legality of the species involved in the hobby and including updated morphs and species.


I bought several of these professionally bound copies from CITES in Canada and had them shipped to me. I transfered one to Julio for use with all the other NYC guys.

It's a great guide, a beautiful effort, a little dated (4-5 years, I think)

BUT

it has no mention of what is actually forbidden to be imported. All it is, is a guide to be able to visually show you what a _O. pumilio_ is from a _dendrobates granuliferus._

It was not designed to tell you what to let in and what to keep out.

In short, it's of pretty limited use to us in the hobby.


----------



## Philsuma

pl259 said:


> -Greater than 99% of us are well meaning, conservation minded hobbiests who would never knowingly purchase a smuggled animal.


Respectfully, that's a pretty pollyanna approach.

My estimate would be 40% of hobbyists (us) would either purchase an outright known smuggled frog or one of "questionable origin".

Gauge it by this thread and the number of people that have rated it with a "one star" and posted in support of being allowed to own any frog.

This thread is important as evidenced by the views / hits.


----------



## poison beauties

Philsuma said:


> Respectfully, that's a pretty pollyanna approach.
> 
> My estimate would be 40% of hobbyists (us) would either purchase an outright known smuggled frog or one of "questionable origin".
> 
> Gauge it by this thread and the number of people that have rated it with a "one star" and posted in support of being allowed to own any frog.
> 
> This thread is important as evidenced by the views / hits.


I agree, More hobbyists should put their integrity and this hobby above the wants and dealings of iffy frogs. We can only lead by example..

Michael


----------



## devin mac

pl259 said:


> -Greater than 99% of us are well meaning, conservation minded hobbiests who would never knowingly purchase a smuggled animal.
> 
> -Greater than 99% of us likely own, at least one animal, whose lineage, legal or otherwise, is not 100% known.
> 
> -Debating these legalities is unfocused and counter productive. Painting broad brushed, factless suspicions does not help the cause or benefit the hobby as a whole.
> 
> Ultimately, we are all senior keepers of private collections. Maintaining a positive and constructive community is what gives us our strength. If we allow internal bickering and personal issues to degrade the community, we devolve to a state that would tend to foster, the exact behavior we're trying to avoid.
> 
> What's at the core here, is conservation, and how we can best and actively communicate, the issues that threaten it, both on the supply and the demand side. The part best of this thread, is the first hand info laying out the specifc and current threats to those wild Columbian populations. We should all take note of the species involved. We should continue to elevate these specifics as they arise.
> 
> We should also look beyond what is currently considered legal, because soon it may not be. Like it or not, the importing of these animals is a for profit business, whether done legally or not. Personally, I for one made the choice several years ago not to buy any of the legal, WC Pumilio that were coming in. Whether they're best guess or site specific to the nanometer, means little to me. What's of greatest concern is not where they came from, but where the 1000's upon 1000's went. How long can the wild populations truely sustain this? Do we even know?
> 
> Let's pick the battles to fight, not between each other, but between our own hearts and minds, and what makes sense beyond our own collections.
> 
> Kumbaya my froggy brothers (and sisters)



this needs to be said: 
eric g for president.


----------



## ChrisK

Honest question - what frogs can be considered non - "iffy"? Seems like other than recent UE imports, all other frogs are a nice mixture of legal and smuggled, with the exception of all Brazilian frogs and probably most Colombian Phyllobates


----------



## Julio

well from what i know Oyapocks tincts were never legally exported out fo the country of origin, they were actually smuggled out to EU and if anything coming out of Panama is not legal, then i saythe entire Hobby is compromise to the point that it woudl be really hard to clean it up


----------



## poison beauties

The fact is many smuggled frogs have been laundered through legal ones and we will never really know how many there are. I would think that we start with the ones that were brought in wc but clearly not farmed and the ones that can not be tracked back to a legal import date. I know its alot of work but I have done it with a few frogs. I would like to be able to say that I did my best to make sure all of my frogs originate back to legal dealings... Then again I have not had many Pumilio that are the bulk of this problem.
I know that there is alot of problems but I would think that fixing the past as a whole is impossible to do so I would say to keep an eye out for anything not right ethically or legal and start there.

Michael


----------



## sbreland

puckplaya32 said:


> I dont believe your statement of 99% of us are conservation minded, its been stated by several people in this particular thread that they are not concerned about where their animals are from or their legality.


Really? I must have missed those declarations of not being concerned about legality... can you point out who/what you are referring to... I'd like to read that.


----------



## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> Honest question - what frogs can be considered non - "iffy"? Seems like other than recent UE imports, all other frogs are a nice mixture of legal and smuggled, with the exception of all Brazilian frogs and probably most Colombian Phyllobates


There still are many legal frogs beyond UE type stock, as was stated earlier most of its been mixed and is impossible to tell anymore and will simply have to be treated as legal at this point. Besides the obvious species which were never supposed to be released to the hobby and came in for research purposes only a little research into any perspective species should yield a good idea of where that animals legal status sits.





sbreland said:


> Really? I must have missed those declarations of not being concerned about legality... can you point out who/what you are referring to... I'd like to read that.


#316


Bananaman said:


> For me legality is not really an issue (though I would never buy illegally imported frogs) - whether a frog is legal or illegal doesn't concern me as much as the status of the frog in the wild.


Theres a blatently obvious quote for you

#274


sbreland said:


> Phil,
> Let me make this straight and simple... I'm a hobbiest and not an activist. I keep frogs because I enjoy them, not because I'm looking for a cause to support or because I want to change the world. Do I care about the issues in the hobby?? Sure, but I honestly care more about finding out how to get this to breed and that to acclimate better... and looking at some honestly cool animals.


And your statements in this post infer more of an interest to acquire cool animals for your hobby, than to acquire only legal animals with known lineages. Your assertion of be interested in how to breed and acclimate something better likely refers to the more difficult egg feeders that are what have been suspect of their legal status, because nearly everything else in the hobby is be bred and acclimated just fine.


I believe it was stated once or twice more but dont have the time to comb nearly 40 pages on this thread.


----------



## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> There still are many legal frogs beyond UE type stock, as was stated earlier most of its been mixed and is impossible to tell anymore and will simply have to be treated as legal at this point. Besides the obvious species which were never supposed to be released to the hobby and came in for research purposes only a little research into any perspective species should yield a good idea of where that animals legal status sits.


I'm sure many ARE legal as well as illegal, but I don't really see any way of proving it one way or the other - look again at Ed's usual example of auratus being smuggled so much, but noone would usually bat an eye about buying an auratus or raise all sorts of *SHTT* when someone posts one, chances are a huge amount of them come from smuggled blood, not to mention the situation of galacts, terribilis............


----------



## sbreland

post 316 that you referred... I can't speak for him but my interpretation of what he said is different than yours, but oh well, it's interpretation and we're each allowed our own.

As for my post... you say I "infer" and "likely refer" to things... perhaps you stop putting words in people's mouth and ask for clarifications before accusing people of things that are blatantly wrong. I have PLENTY of frogs that are not eggfeeders and have a MUCH harder time getting them to breed than I do eggfeeders. Why do I care what's being bred successfully in the hobby?? I'm talking about breeding MY frogs! My statement was NOT "referring" to anything specific and was generally saying that I am more concerned about husbandry and "frog keeping" issues that I am concerned about tying myself to a tree. I am a hobbiest... plain and simple. I have NOTHING against people like Mark and Jason and Evan and everyone else that have literally dedicated their life to this cause and put themselves "in the shit" to support these activities, in fact I quite admire them. I am truly grateful that there are people in this hobby/world that ARE that dedicated to the frogs in the way that these guys are and I believe they should be commended, but with that said, I am not one of them. I love my frogs and really enjoy the HOBBY, but for me it's just that... a hobby, not a cause. I don't feel that my saying that this is a hobby to me and I'm interested in husbandry more than being an activist in any way says I don't give a shit about legality or doing the right thing but thanks for putting words in my mouth and trying to defame here on public forum... This again reminds me why I and SOOO many other people often choose not to post here. Good luck


----------



## pl259

Me said:


> -Greater than 99% of us are well meaning, conservation minded hobbiests who would never knowingly purchase a smuggled animal.





Philsuma said:


> Respectfully, that's a pretty pollyanna approach.


Perhaps. It's an exaggeration, somewhat, for effect. I'm also refering to established US hobbiests and not transients. 

We could waste bandwidth debating what "conservation minded" or "questionable origin" means too. 

I believe if I was to create a poll that asked "Do you think other froggers consider you a well meaning, conservation minded hobbiest? Yes or No" the results of the poll would be very strongly yes. What do you think it would be? Perhaps I have too much faith. One could also argue that true conservation minded people wouldn't keep frogs as pets. 

I can question the origin of almost every frog I own or have produced. There are no papers. It's all word of mouth. Do I really know the true origins of even the froglets I've produced? No.

Mixing "known smuggled" with "questionable origin" muddies the water. I'd say way more than 40% have purchased frogs of questionable origin. What percentage of US hobbiests do you think have knowingly purchased smuggled frogs? I think it's small. Again, perhaps I have too much faith.


----------



## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> I'm sure many ARE legal as well as illegal, but I don't really see any way of proving it one way or the other - look again at Ed's usual example of auratus being smuggled so much, but noone would usually bat an eye about buying an auratus or raising all sorts of *SHTT* when someone posts one, chances are a huge amount of them come from smuggled blood, not to mention the situation of galacts, terribilis............


Chris I agree with 100% that there is no way to prove it one way or another, but I for one would not like to be the person that deals with shady animals because the government cant prove they are illegal. Its an ethics questions for the frogs that are already in this country, and IMO a place to start to help stop that perpetual cycle from continuing. As for the auratus argument everyone seems to cling to so dearly, in one way ethically it is on the same level “a smuggled frog is a smuggled frog” but more so the histos/sylvaticus are being drove to extinction due to collectors taking them illicitly while the auratus are not. They are not likely to be established and become abundant , sure a few experienced hobbyiest can produce F1’s but very few can produce F2’s and F3’s. The numbers simply don’t add up and that species is being drove to extinction from a combination of people being naïve, and others who simply just want it. If a deal seems to good to be true it likely is, as is the case of the animals that people get all “iffy” about.




sbreland said:


> post 316 that you referred... I can't speak for him but my interpretation of what he said is different than yours, but oh well, it's interpretation and we're each allowed our own.
> 
> As for my post... you say I "infer" and "likely refer" to things... perhaps you stop putting words in people's mouth and ask for clarifications before accusing people of things that are blatantly wrong. I have PLENTY of frogs that are not eggfeeders and have a MUCH harder time getting them to breed than I do eggfeeders. Why do I care what's being bred successfully in the hobby?? I'm talking about breeding MY frogs! My statement was NOT "referring" to anything specific and was generally saying that I am more concerned about husbandry and "frog keeping" issues that I am concerned about tying myself to a tree. I am a hobbiest... plain and simple. I have NOTHING against people like Mark and Jason and Evan and everyone else that have literally dedicated their life to this cause and put themselves "in the shit" to support these activities, in fact I quite admire them. I am truly grateful that there are people in this hobby/world that ARE that dedicated to the frogs in the way that these guys are and I believe they should be commended, but with that said, I am not one of them. I love my frogs and really enjoy the HOBBY, but for me it's just that... a hobby, not a cause. I don't feel that my saying that this is a hobby to me and I'm interested in husbandry more than being an activist in any way says I don't give a shit about legality or doing the right thing but thanks for putting words in my mouth and trying to defame here on public forum... This again reminds me why I and SOOO many other people often choose not to post here. Good luck


I don’t know if you ve noticed this but every time you post you turn a discussion into an argument, maybe you should review the way you come across to people. And for someone who claims to not post often you sure seem to post a lot as of late. 

But onto the bulk of your statements Putting words in your mouth? I know others who came across your post with the same take at what you wrote as I did,.. Perhaps you should have clarified that before you put it on a public form and claimed to be done posting over and over again. how do you justify a claim to not care what is being successfully bred in the hobby? If something isn’t being bred in the hobby all of a sudden a demand for WC animals is needed, and this is where our smugglers fill the niche. Isnt that what this thread is about, the title clearly states “ILLEGAL FROGS ON THIS FORUM”, any questions? Were trying to keep the thread constructive and apply insight to possible solutions to help stop or at least reduce to number of illicit frogs entering the hobby. If you have any constructive ideas I and im sure many of 12,000 plus views on this thread would like to here them. I d love to hear some of your suggestions for fixing the problems associated with the way frogs have reached our hobby.



pl259 said:


> Perhaps. It's an exaggeration, somewhat, for effect. I'm also refering to established US hobbiests and not transients.
> 
> We could waste bandwidth debating what "conservation minded" or "questionable origin" means too.
> 
> I believe if I was to create a poll that asked "Do you think other froggers consider you a well meaning, conservation minded hobbiest? Yes or No" the results of the poll would be very strongly yes. What do you think it would be? Perhaps I have too much faith. One could also argue that true conservation minded people wouldn't keep frogs as pets.
> 
> I can question the origin of almost every frog I own or have produced. There are no papers. It's all word of mouth. Do I really know the true origins of even the froglets I've produced? No.
> 
> Mixing "known smuggled" with "questionable origin" muddies the water. I'd say way more than 40% have purchased frogs of questionable origin. What percentage of US hobbiests do you think have knowingly purchased smuggled frogs? I think it's small. Again, perhaps I have too much faith.


I do agree with you that it is probably a small percentage that have knowingly purchased frogs that are 100% known to be smuggled,. but i do believe that Phil's assessment of 40% for the purchase of frogs of questionable origins is in the ballpark, largely due to lack of research and simply being naive.


----------



## Philsuma

Julio said:


> then i say the entire Hobby is compromise to the point that it woudl be really hard to clean it up


That just means we have got some work to do.

I just can't believe the hobby wants to say "oh well, it's here now - whatever.....when can I get _my_ rare frog"

We have _got_ to be better than that. There has got to be more to the hobby than that.

Who wants to develope a colour guide like Andrews', for different species?

Who wants to start making a list of species and when, where and how, they came into the U.S hobby? Hit the phones.....talk to the old-timers.

Who wants to be a liason with the USWF and get some answers?

Providing a service like that to the hobby has got to be worth something.....Karma at least. The thanks of one's peers? The animals themselves?

or am I off crazy-off base here ?


----------



## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> “a smuggled frog is a smuggled frog” but more so the histos/sylvaticus are being drove to extinction due to collectors taking them illicitly while the auratus are not.


Are you 100% sure it's more smugglers than habitat destruction?


----------



## sbreland

Like I said... I'm done, have fun with your witch hunt and false accusations...


----------



## puckplaya32

Phil i dont think your off base at all I ve actually been working a list that sort of tells the history of particular species and morphs for awhile now. But its not going to be a one man show to change the hobby, and advance it towards the majority only acquiring animals with complete legal status. Theres nothing we can do about the past besides straighten it out and have all the information out there for people to see, but we can still prevent new frogs from coming in illegally.

Chris I dont think it is only smuggling but i do believe and have heard that its the majority of the reason, im sure habitat destruction hasnt helped.


----------



## Roadrunner

Auratus are not being extirpated from their habitat by collecting. I don`t think anyone is going to smuggle terribilis and call them CB. My galacts and terribilis are from 13 years ago beyond the Lacy act when I didn`t know better. At some point sooner or later we have to stop using the excuse that the hobby is already dirty.
As someone asked about EU frogs, I don`t know anyone who knows enough about who breeds what and who smuggles what to know for sure on anything. My idea is that I don`t make enough off breeding frogs to sweat out 5 years after my purchase to know? whether something is going to surface about my shipment, the fines are too much. Just because it doesn`t happen now doesn`t mean it never will and 5 years is a long time. Especially if I didn`t get them breeding, they die, I don`t get correct sexes, etc.



ChrisK said:


> I'm sure many ARE legal as well as illegal, but I don't really see any way of proving it one way or the other - look again at Ed's usual example of auratus being smuggled so much, but noone would usually bat an eye about buying an auratus or raise all sorts of *SHTT* when someone posts one, chances are a huge amount of them come from smuggled blood, not to mention the situation of galacts, terribilis............


----------



## thedude

Philsuma said:


> That just means we have got some work to do.
> 
> I just can't believe the hobby wants to say "oh well, it's here now - whatever.....when can I get _my_ rare frog"
> 
> We have _got_ to be better than that. There has got to be more to the hobby than that.
> 
> Who wants to develope a colour guide like Andrews', for different species?
> 
> Who wants to start making a list of species and when, where and how, they came into the U.S hobby? Hit the phones.....talk to the old-timers.
> 
> Who wants to be a liason with the USWF and get some answers?
> 
> Providing a service like that to the hobby has got to be worth something.....Karma at least. The thanks of one's peers? The animals themselves?
> 
> or am I off crazy-off base here ?


no, not off base at all. in fact, other than the color posters, isnt that what TWI is doing? i think they need a lot more help though. because barely any TMPs have come out. one of them needs to be updated too.

anyway, i think its a great idea. and this thread is the perfect place to start talking about it!

sbreland,
in a lot of the posts you have made in this thread, you are coming off very mean. so i kind of agree with puckplaya32. maybe you should read over your posts before you post them and edit them a little.


----------



## thedude

sbreland said:


> Like I said... I'm done, have fun with your witch hunt and false accusations...


havent seen anything like that in a while. everything seems to be on track now.


----------



## Bananaman

puckplaya32 said:


> #316
> 
> 
> Theres a blatently obvious quote for you


Perhaps I should have worded it differently...just because a frog has legal papers here in America it doesnt mean that it wasnt smuggled into Europe illegally. Also there are cases mentioned here where people have been using old legal papers for newer illegal imports. These kind of things damage the credibility of all the true legal papers hence the statement of mine you quoted. I think I made it pretty clear in the rest of my statement as to how I feel about this topic and singling out that statement misrepresents my standpoint.


----------



## pl259

puckplaya32 said:


> ...but i do believe that Phil's assessment of 40% for the purchase of frogs of questionable origins is in the ballpark, largely due to lack of research and simply being naive.


...and depending on our definition of "questionable origins", I think it's way higher than 40%.


----------



## ChrisK

thedude said:


> havent seen anything like that in a while. everything seems to be on track now.


Yeah MOSTLY because fred hasn't posted today


----------



## poison beauties

I think percentages should be proven before stated. You are puting a large group of our hobby into that 40+ percent. The fact is you will never know what is of illegal origins here unless the species as a whole has never been legally exported. They have all been mixed in well.
Its like the bate over chris's histo's, Why try and shake things up without proof. Not that they are illegal. I just think this stuff should be approached with respect and proof. Many of the frogs here very well could be the last of them the way its going down there.
I think more work should be towards keeping them healthy and breeding rather than trying to prove they are here on bad terms. Noone will ever know the 100% truth.
And if you are one of us who would rather not keep these iffy frogs then dont keep them but without proof why cause issue's that affect the legal keepers.

Michael


----------



## Afemoralis

Philsuma said:


> That just means we have got some work to do.
> 
> I just can't believe the hobby wants to say "oh well, it's here now - whatever.....when can I get _my_ rare frog"
> 
> We have _got_ to be better than that. There has got to be more to the hobby than that.
> 
> Who wants to develope a colour guide like Andrews', for different species?
> 
> Who wants to start making a list of species and when, where and how, they came into the U.S hobby? Hit the phones.....talk to the old-timers.
> 
> Who wants to be a liason with the USWF and get some answers?
> 
> Providing a service like that to the hobby has got to be worth something.....Karma at least. The thanks of one's peers? The animals themselves?
> 
> or am I off crazy-off base here ?



Yes. Let's do that.

Afemoralis


----------



## puckplaya32

I do think the thread is on track despite the inevitable little twist in the road.

Bananaman If i misinterpreted your message, i did not mean too. When I read "For me legality is not really an issue (though I would never buy illegally imported frogs) - whether a frog is legal or illegal doesn't concern me as much as the status of the frog in the wild.", it looks like legit frogs are not your concern. The rest of that post is not relevant to legality statement you made, but to trading off new frogs for more common ones.

I think the animostity between chris and fred needs to stop to keep the thread on track, theres no reason to name specific people for whatever reason publically. The majority of us are adults and can likely have a productive discussion. Correct??

I agree that without accurate statistics its tough to come to an accurate conclusion, However one cannot deny that there are a great deal of frogs in this hobby that have questionable origins at best. This is the reason for the past is past statements that have been repeated many times in this thread, and to stop using it as excuse for the future. There is absolutely no reason illicit frogs or even highly suspect frogs(deals to good to be true) should be continued to imported and purchased.


----------



## skylsdale

thedude said:


> in fact, other than the color posters, isnt that what TWI is doing? i think they need a lot more help though. because barely any TMPs have come out. one of them needs to be updated too.


For the most part, yes it is. But for some reason the tendency in his hobby is to try and reinvent the wheel on so many projects and goals...and I wonder if this isn't perhaps part of the reasons as to why very little ever seems to actually get beyond the idea phase in discussions/issues like this.

TWI was created to gather together and *focus* people's resources, passions, skills, etc. and use them more effectively so that things like this could actually get accomplished. There is LOTS that needs to be done, and the more folks that join in with their input and energy and willingness to work on a team, the more we can collectively accomplish.


----------



## fred

Hi Chris,

I see you missed me..
Sorry, but i was working out house.

Also I see many good plans and things going on here.
Didn't expect this after the first reactions on my posts..; my compliments, and my excuses if i might have misjudged someone!

Hi Michael,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You said: 'Many of the frogs here very well could be the last of them the way its going down there.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, they shouldn't have been there in the first place..

And what do you think what can happen if certain organizations (which allready would like to see this hobby be shutdown) find out that these frogs are illegal?

Better be in front of them and have everything clean before that happends.


----------



## Bananaman

puckplaya32 said:


> Bananaman If i misinterpreted your message, i did not mean too. When I read "For me legality is not really an issue (though I would never buy illegally imported frogs) - whether a frog is legal or illegal doesn't concern me as much as the status of the frog in the wild.", it looks like legit frogs are not your concern. The rest of that post is not relevant to legality statement you made, but to trading off new frogs for more common ones.


"I try to buy CB frogs from reputable sources. There are so many frogs that are well established in captivity already I see no need for a small keeper like myself to get/need wc/rare imports etc." 

I thought this statement might show that I dont care for illegal frogs but thats just me. 

Being new to the hobby I was just trying to give my input on this interesting topic but I should probably leave this thread to those with a greater knowledge of the situation. Until I give every bit of time/money I have to research and conservation (like many on this forum do ) Im not going to preach or judge others on how they should live or keep their animals because that would just make me a hippocrate in the end. This is not directed at anyone other than myself.


----------



## puckplaya32

Eric (Bananaman)
Participation in these threads is open to everyone, if you have ideas lets hear them . The more involved everyone is the better, just because you are a new hobbyist does not mean you dont have a perspective that someone may not have looked at yet.


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## Bananaman

cool thanks Bryce  - I do know that since I have started this hobby I have become more environmentally conscious than I was before


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## Afemoralis

skylsdale said:


> TWI was created to gather together and *focus* people's resources, passions, skills, etc. and use them more effectively so that things like this could actually get accomplished. There is LOTS that needs to be done, and the more folks that join in with their input and energy and willingness to work on a team, the more we can collectively accomplish.


Can we get an official TWI representative/recruiter to step in here and coordinate?
I agree it's not good to reinvent wheels, but the wheels need to make it onto the carts for anything to happen.

-Afemoralis


----------



## skylsdale

Afemoralis said:


> Can we get an official TWI representative/recruiter to step in here and coordinate?


I'm the Director...does that count? Ed is also on the TWI Executive Committee. Mike K (Corpus Callosum) is the ASN director. We are all fairly regular participants on here.

If a concerted effort toward some sort of initiative or project was really attempted, it would be best to gather a group of people to then begin an e-mail group or more focused dialogue in order to move this forward with minimal distractions (i.e. tangiential posts, random comments, etc.).


----------



## jaree2

fred said:


> And what do you think what can happen if certain organizations (which allready would like to see this hobby be shutdown) find out that these frogs are illegal?


This is a fairly good point. Granted this is a relatively small niche of the herp hobby as a whole, but it is rather frightening what an organization like the HSUS or even one of their grassroot followers could accomplish if they saw this as an opening to actualizing their long-term agenda.


----------



## Afemoralis

skylsdale said:


> I'm the Director...does that count?



Um... yes.... LOL.

So do you want to fill us in on what is going on on the TWI side, as far as projects along these lines go, and start channelling some of all the interest in this thread into action?

-Afemoralis


----------



## skylsdale

Afemoralis said:


> So do you want to fill us in on what is going on on the TWI side, as far as projects along these lines go, and start channelling some of all the interest in this thread into action?


Well, our role in the issue is a unique one: because we're not a regulatory agency or organization, we can't "crack down" on smuggling. TWI was founded to help spread awareness (education) and provide an opportunity for individuals to act on that awareness and knowledge. To a large degree we function as a sort of monitoring organization: through the ASN, with the amphibians that are accessioned into the ISIS database, we are able to track what frogs are being kept and in what numbers (this is why it's so important for as many people to participate and accession their frogs as possible, so we can gain a more accurate picture of what's currently out there). Theoretically, then, if we see numbers of a certain species and/or morph begin to drop, we can call attention to that specific morph and let people know it is on the verge of falling through the cracks and being lost from the captive hobby. Then there can be a concerted effort to build up the captive populations, distribute animals to form backup colonies, etc.

One big initiative we have been working on with some folks that put together the CACG (Commercial Amphibian Conservation Group) within TWI is a document that discusses hobby "best practices" and follows the entire supply chain, from collection all the way to purchase.

Another thing we have discussed over and over, but simply haven't had the manpower to pursue, is to develop a TWI "Fair Trade Frog" sort of stamp of approval. Assuming all the "best practices" I mentioned above are met, a frog (or importation, etc.) would receive the certification and hobbyists would know those frogs were collected sustainably, shipped safely, and were completely legal. And, ideally, we would like to set up a system where the money for the frogs actually goes back to conserving them in the wild, paying locals, etc. (we are currently looking at this with a Madagascar project as well).

Personally, I would LOVE to see this fair trade certification come together. If folks following this thread would like to participate in helping make it a reality, I really think it would be a huge step forward and show that the private sector of hobbyists truly are serious about supporting a sustainable and healthy hobby.

If anyone is interested, please don't hesitate to contact me!


----------



## puckplaya32

the fair trade stamp of approval I love that idea, it gets to the point of which frogs to support without getting the feds involved and receiving alot more problems and attention than this hobby needs. That combined with a comprehnsive history of each morph available in the US would answer every question a new comer would have regarding legal status. What sort of man power would be needed to get this done?


----------



## Peter Keane

AMEN!!!... 

Peter Keane



rmelancon said:


> The answer lies in Columbia, Peru, Panama, Ecuador, etc. The hobby has proven it will support legal farming/conservation efforts if given the option. Mark Pepper in Peru is a prime example, SNDF in Panama is another. It is not the hobbyists responsibility to police things happening in Columbia or Panama, it's a losing proposition and won't change a thing. Give us access to a legitimite conservation project in Columbia and we will support it. Without that, nothing will change.


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## frogparty

I really have to agree. If done well it would really benefit everyone. Hobbyists. Habitat. EVERYONE.


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## mathieuwoldhuis

I just read tis topic and a lot has been already said about it. Still I want to make my contribution for this topic. I’m a boardmember of the Dutch Dendrobatic Society , Dendrobatidae Nederland for many years. Therefore I have a lot of knowledge of the hobby and especially in the illegal trade of the frogs as this is one of the activities I do for the society.

For many years I received information that since the FARC is withdraw due to the government actions, the opportunities for research has been grown. Sadly also the oppurtunities for smuggling the beautiful frogs from Colombia has grown as well. The last years this is happening in a increasing rate. Many species like _Oophaga histrionica, O. lehmanni, Ranitomeya bombetes _and others are being smuggled to mainly Germany. The most effected way to do this is to packed them together with ornamental fish transport.
In January of 2009 the Ranita Dorada Reserve has been opened in Colombia for the protection of _Ranitomeya tolimense _and _R. dorisswanonae_. Our society took the initiative for this reserve and established it together with the IUCN, ProAes and Conservation International. In our English magazine there is an nice article about this reserve together with other interesting articles. You can order this magazine online at the website of Dendrobatidae Nederland.
Sadly a half year later at the reptile fair in Hamm, Germany these species of frogs were available for sale together with other Colombian species like _O. histrionica_ and_ O. lehmanni_. In that year I received from a Colombian biologist a alarming email that despite the untouched small habitat in which _O. lehmanni _occurred, there was no frog of this species being found. Surprisingly the same morph showed up again at fairs in Germany. The smuggling is now so huge that almost complete populations of morphs are being collected for the trade. This was also happened a couple of years ago with the Jerebos imitator in Peru and probably now with the red head fantasticus or Ranitomeya benedicta.
The last frog day in the Netherland a german trader was being held by the police after our society heard rumours that he was trying to sell _O. histrionica _and _O. granulifera_. When the police arrived after that we informed the Dutch authorities, the trader was in the possession of these frogs and trying to sell them to another person. It was a histrionca morph most likely for the ProAves nature Reserve “el Pangan” in southern Colombia. This morph was fully mature and beautiful colored and for my knowledge was never been legally imported in the years that this was possible. With some international authorities there is now a investigation going on to stop this trade. 
As you look at German fora on the internet the same persons are offering for years species of frogs, that were never available before for a lot of money. For me it is strange that the extreme small population of species that still lives of the early legal imports, are suddenly being bred at their old age in huge quantities. Where some serious breeders has some success but with very small numbers of offspring, now big adult offspring is suddenly available. My conclusion can only be that this must be smuggling.
The only way to stop the illegal trade of these endangered species is NOT BUYING THESE FROGS. There are a lot of beautiful species of legal frogs available, so in my opinion, there is no need for buying these frogs. The only justification I can think of to satisfy your own egoism above the sad impact this will have on the wild population.

Kind regards,
Mathieu Woldhuis
Amsetrdam, the Netherlands

some example of in my opinion illegal frog openly offered for sale:

Abzugeben Histrionicus / Tinctorius
Biete Histri-Männchen
Für RH A castanicoticus


----------



## Roadrunner

Have either of you ever been to Columbia? It`s quite a large and unhospitable area and very hard to police. 
I suppose it`s our problem that all these people are coming here illegally since we can`t police our borders too.
These things will eventually happen in all these countries(if there are any frogs left) it`s hobbyists inability to wait for them to happen. WE`re a quick fix society. People want it all and they want it now, as if there isn`t enough speices already here that people won`t manage properly. How many times have we seen "New bloodlines from EU" in the classifieds and see them sell. We KNOW that these "new" bloodlines from EU haven`t been legally exported from the country of origin, yet they still sell.



Peter Keane said:


> AMEN!!!...
> 
> Peter Keane


----------



## ChrisK

Hi Mathieu, welcome and thanks for the info and pics but most of that info has already been mentioned and mindlessly rehashed many times.

Aaron (and Mathieu), telling people not to buy frogs won't work. Half don't care and half can't hear you in the first place. "Don't buy possibly illegal frogs" means don't buy any oophaga, any Brazilian frogs, any Colombian phyllobates, any auratus, any azureus, etc, you think that's going to happen?


----------



## ErikHa

ChrisK said:


> Hi Mathieu, welcome and thanks for the info and pics but most of that info has already been mentioned and mindlessly rehashed many times.
> 
> Aaron (and Mathieu), telling people not to buy frogs won't work. Half don't care and half can't hear you in the first place. "Don't buy possibly illegal frogs" means don't buy any oophaga, any Brazilian frogs, any Colombian phyllobates, any auratus, any azureus, etc, you think that's going to happen?


There will always be greedy and irresponsible people. So we should let this slide because a minority just doesn't care? What is you alternative?


----------



## fred

As long this kind of hobbyists know they don't impress people with the collections of smuggled frogs they have, but instead they would know the community find it disgusting and repulsive, it think it would help some too..

Check this out: Herzlich Willkommen auf tropenfrösche.org

In Germany this is the way to show-off your smuggled frogs, (don't try this in Holland or Belgium f.e.), do you want this to be open showed in your Country too?

You are allready some steps on this road....right here on this forum.

I really hope that action will be taken; maybe an idea to start another thread (without all kind of other interruptions) only about actions to be taken now and volunteers who want to do it?

Hi Mathieu,

Good to see you here too..
Would be nice to see you visit Colombia again; i hope the next time when we visit the area of the 'redhead' histrionica again, they are still there to be found..

Maybe lucky we took some pictures the last time.


----------



## ChrisK

ErikHa said:


> There will always be greedy and irresponsible people. So we should let this slide because a minority just doesn't care? What is you alternative?


It's not a minority, I'm willing to bet MOST members here own at least one morph of the frogs I mentioned. What breeds/morphs do you keep? And like I said, I'm sure most of the hobby in the world doesn't read Dendroboard. The frogs not being available is the only way to stop people from buying them, as unlikely as that is and as upsetting it is for some people to hear said.


----------



## Afemoralis

It's gotta start somewhere though, and the more information folks have, the more likely they are to make the right choice. I really don't think people buy shady frogs out of any malice- they just don't know.

This is why the TWI "sustainable frog" program is such a great idea... it provides the consumer with more information.

Chris, Fred, what do you think of that idea? Do we have consensus that it is a step in the right direction?

-Afemoralis


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## ChrisK

Yeah definitely, the more education in anything the better and some people actually might not buy frogs that are possibly illegal. I just know it's not the solution though - I really don't see the hobby not buying any of those frogs I listed (and more) until there are sustainable breeding programs/farming/export operations going on


----------



## fred

Trying to involve hobbyists who keep commonly accepted frogs is a very poor excuse to use in attempting to make smuggled frogs look legal.

Frogs like D. tinctorius morphs, P. terribillis, bicolor, and many other frogs that have been imported long ago with or without papers, are been bred in big numbers, right from the beginning when they came in.
These are stabilized in the hobby for many years, and tolerated, no need to discuss that further.

Offcourse in some occasions also these frogs still are getting imported in a wrong way; like 'breeding-farms' who abuse the possibility given to them being able to do good work, and only have money for a motive..

Like the thousands of adult pumilio's that are coming in for many years now; with any logical thinking it's obvious such numbers of frogs could never have been farmed in such a short time..

But what i'm trying to say here is; we are no fools in this hobby, we know what is around the hobby and what can be called fair or not.

So c.t.c. (stop the nonsens).

Oh, didn't see your post;
Afemoralis, i think that's is a good step to take!


----------



## ChrisK

fred said:


> Trying to involve hobbyists who keep commonly accepted frogs is a very poor excuse to use in attempting to make smuggled frogs look legal.


I don't see anyone doing that



fred said:


> Frogs like D. tinctorius morphs, P. terribillis, bicolor, and many other frogs that have been imported long ago with or without papers, are been bred in big numbers, right from the beginning when they came in.
> These are stabilized in the hobby for many years, and tolerated, no need to discuss that further.


Good thing we're not being hypocritical here eh?


----------



## poison beauties

One thing I dont understand is legions of frogs have been brought in and we still cant supply enough cb for this hobby. Maybe its time to stop importing and put the projects to work within our own captive breeding programs. As long as imports are coming in we will not be able to stop the illegal problems. Allow a few rarities in? Yes but only with papers that are verified from the original country. Its to late for whats here already, Why not focus on what is to come?
Michael


----------



## DendroJoe

I have been following this thread for sometime. Can someone on this forum list all the Frogs that are Legal and all that is not. Stop all the BS and fightings.


----------



## ChrisK

Legal are frogs brought in from UE, illegal are any Brazilian frogs, most Colombian phyllobates and maybe azureus, the rest are unknown because legal imports as well as illegal imports occurred


----------



## Paul G

ChrisK said:


> Good thing we're not being hypocritical here eh?


I was thinking the same thing.
So Fred; if a species is prolific its somewhat ok if they were smuggled?
I'm sure even mentioned plentiful species still get smuggled for new bloodlines.


----------



## skylsdale

ChrisK said:


> I really don't see the hobby not buying any of those frogs I listed (and more) until there are sustainable breeding programs/farming/export operations going on


The TWI sustainable frog program would include frogs from these operations...assuming they met the qualifications laid out in the "best practices" guidelines.



poison beauties said:


> One thing I dont understand is legions of frogs have been brought in and we still cant supply enough cb for this hobby. Maybe its time to stop importing and put the projects to work within our own captive breeding programs.


It's nice to hear someone else saying this! Again: this is one of the primary points behind and goals of the Amphibian Steward Network. It is difficult to supply CB frogs if the current stock isn't being managed properly. The more people register their frogs, sign up for TMPs, and participate in the active management of various species, etc. according to the TMPs, the sooner this can start becoming a reality in the hobby.


----------



## skylsdale

puckplaya32 said:


> the fair trade stamp of approval I love that idea, it gets to the point of which frogs to support without getting the feds involved and receiving alot more problems and attention than this hobby needs. That combined with a comprehnsive history of each morph available in the US would answer every question a new comer would have regarding legal status. What sort of man power would be needed to get this done?


I think if we could get a solid working group together...maybe even half a dozen folks who can really spearhead this (and I would of course be part of it)...I think we could start piecing things together. Ideally, what we will want is a few representatives who have direct participation in various aspects of the system (collection, export, import, commercial trade, etc.) who know what goes on and what needs to be improved. Given that participation, I things could come together relatively quickly as each person would primarily focus on their specific area, and then we could compile it all. We would also need volunteers just willing to contact some of these folks, organize info, etc...so you don't need to be part of the system to participate, just willing to help.

Again, if you are interested in participating, please don't hesitate to contact me and we can get started on this!


----------



## MrBiggs

I have read through all 41 pages of this thread in the last 30-45 minutes, so my memory and mind is still pretty fresh with what has been discussed and talked about. 

After reading through all the material I have a few specific questions and comments. First of all, want to say that I think this has been a pretty darn good thread; it's certainly worth a read through for both experienced and new froggers alike.

My first question/comment is for Fred, who seems to ignore the hard questions and repeat a very narrow party line ad nauseum. Why in the world do you believe that it would be easier to convince a HUGE group of disconnected froggers from buying frogs that are, probably, illegal (at least in the eyes of the country of origin's government)? How do YOU, specifically, suggest that we go about that process? Yes, we can and should educate forum members and others in the hobby about the importance of conservation efforts as well as the importance of discouraging smuggling with our purchase decisions. HOWEVER, that CANNOT reach all potential frog buyers. It is literally impossible. Even if it did happen, miraculously, some people would still choose to purchase such animals.

Therefore, anyone with a brain realizes that it is much more logical to focus on stopping the original smuggling/collection/subtraction of these animals from their SOURCE! For Columbian frogs, that means that the logical step is to put the majority of the effort into preventing those things in COLUMBIA, not Europe, not Germany, not the USA. 

So, as a follow up to that obvious information, what are you SPECIFICALLY doing to aid such efforts? I don't want to hear that you visited the area where histronicus lives, I don't want to hear about the Columbian government, and I don't want to hear about what is and isn't legal. I want to know what organization you have started or have been involved with or what SPECIFIC efforts you have made in real life to stop the illegal smuggling of Columbian frogs. If you can be specific with those answers there are likely several of us who would be willing to contribute financially to aid those efforts. You coming in here and screaming about illegal frogs is absurd UNLESS you are doing something to help the situation. Not typing on a forum, not praising a Columbian government department that supposedly does its job, and not telling us how we don't have it figured out over here. So, specifically, what have you DONE?

Next, I love the idea that Philsuma brought up concerning a massive identification effort with cards, posters, photos, and legal/illegal status of every species and morph. It would surely be a massive effort to do, but I think it would be amazingly useful. It would also double as an amazing platform on which to build specific care sheets for every species and morph, to a much larger extent than what has already been produced. However, I'm confused as to why you suggested it without any intent (it seems) to help to produce it? You seemed so hung-ho at first, but then completely shied away from attempts to connect you with people to carry through. Why?

Last, concerning what should be done with animals that are/are probably illegal, it makes little sense to suggest that they be sent back to the country of origin. What benefit would that have? Not only would the animals be stressed in transit, they would not likely be able to be reintroduced into the wild. And, even if they were, if there is no ability/effort to directly stop the collection of animals illegally, there's a decent chance that those EXACT same animals would just be recaptured anyway! The logical step is to get those animals into the hands of the most responsible keepers available in order to give them the maximum chance of both survival and breeding. This seems obvious, although not simple, and I'm not sure that there have been any other reasonable explanation of what is to be done with those animals.

Sorry for the book, but there is a lot of good information here and I wanted to keep it going. Thanks to all who are actively participating.


----------



## skylsdale

MrBiggs said:


> Therefore, anyone with a brain realizes that it is much more logical to focus on stopping the original smuggling/collection/subtraction of these animals from their SOURCE! For Columbian frogs, that means that the logical step is to put the majority of the effort into preventing those things in COLUMBIA, not Europe, not Germany, not the USA.


Keep in mind...this isn't occuring JUST in Colombia, but also Peru (entire populations are being extirpated there as well) and now Costa Rica. To coordinate the efforts to deal with ALL of these countries, each with their own systems of law and government, etc. seems pretty overwhelming. Wouldn't Germany be a logical place to start, assuming that many of the operations and players are centered there?


----------



## fred

Some constructive ideas.

1. Register all frogs.

To begin with; give everyone the chance to register their frogs and give an opening date (like right now) and a deadline.
Every frog not registered before the deadline will be considered illegal.

Also how and where the frogs were obtained should be in the register.
In this way recently smuggled frogs can be detected and action can be taken to stop these smugglers.

2. Make it an obligation to have a bookkeeping of all your frogs; every frog should have a ID, when they get born, die, or get sold/ exchanged.
Every frog without ID is illegal.

Very rare and/or difficult/slow breeding frogs should have extra notification/ control and placed on a special list.


Hi Ron, you're on a good track, keep it going!


Hi Travis (mr. Big),

All these questions you named, i have answered for as far i could; maybe you've missed it while reading.

What have i done? maybe I started this thread?
Is it not working?
Sorry then, but i tried..

Now what have you done?


----------



## ChrisK

Travis, you're making too much sense, that was a great post, a lot of points a couple of us were trying to make this whole time, but fred just basically ignores most of it or brushes it off -

Ron, you're correct, but I think most of that was aimed specifically at fred for the mentioned and obvious reasons.


----------



## MrBiggs

skylsdale said:


> Keep in mind...this isn't occuring JUST in Colombia, but also Peru (entire populations are being extirpated there as well) and now Costa Rica. To coordinate the efforts to deal with ALL of these countries, each with their own systems of law and government, etc. seems pretty overwhelming. Wouldn't Germany be a logical place to start, assuming that many of the operations and players are centered there?


No, of course it's not just Columbia, I'm sorry if my post made it seem that way. I was just using Columbia as an example because that is Fred's country of residence. Germany would be a logical place to go to 2nd, because of so many operations players being there. However, if German players and operations can't get frogs in the first place, they don't matter. If you want to control a river you don't build a dam at the eventual basin, you build it upstream.



fred said:


> Some constructive ideas.
> 
> 1. Register all frogs.
> 
> To begin with; give everyone the chance to register their frogs and give an opening date (like right now) and a deadline.
> Every frog not registered before the deadline will be considered illegal.
> 
> Also how and where the frogs were obtained should be in the register.
> In this way recently smuggled frogs can be detected and action can be taken to stop these smugglers.


Great idea! Only one small problem, HOW? Seriously, in all reality, how could this possibly happen on the global scale that it would need to in order to be truly successful? The world's governments can't even stop illegal immigration of readily identifiable humans, how could they possibly coordinate to identify frogs? Can. not. be. done. At least not on the scale it would need to be.



fred said:


> Hi Travis (mr. Big),
> 
> All these questions you named, i have answered for as far i could; maybe you've missed it while reading.
> 
> What have i done? maybe I started this thread?
> Is it not working?
> Sorry then, but i tried..
> 
> Now what have you done?


First, my last name is Biggs. Next, I have missed NOTHING that you've written. I've read through EVERY post in this thread and I am a very good reader. You have blantantly ignored most of the hard questions asked of you. You may have have responded to the post, but that's very different than actually answering the questions asked. Do not confuse the two.

Nonetheless, you are telling me that you are actually in Columbia where a large part of the problem you are speaking out against occurs, and you've done nothing that matters? This is a good thread, but in and of itself it is USELESS. ACTION must be taken, and words do not count as action. Making things change does not happen via forum posts, however inflammatory. Change happens when people in the position to do something (you) take up the gauntlet, get off their lazy, forum-posting butts, and DO something. You want to make a difference? Then do!



ChrisK said:


> Travis, you're making too much sense, that was a great post, a lot of points a couple of us were trying to make this whole time, but fred just basically ignores most of it or brushes it off -


Well, at least someone thinks so.


----------



## puckplaya32

gothaicus said:


> I was thinking the same thing.
> So Fred; if a species is prolific its somewhat ok if they were smuggled?
> I'm sure even mentioned plentiful species still get smuggled for new bloodlines.





ChrisK said:


> Hi Mathieu, welcome and thanks for the info and pics but most of that info has already been mentioned and mindlessly rehashed many times.
> 
> Aaron (and Mathieu), telling people not to buy frogs won't work. Half don't care and half can't hear you in the first place. "Don't buy possibly illegal frogs" means don't buy any oophaga, any Brazilian frogs, any Colombian phyllobates, any auratus, any azureus, etc, you think that's going to happen?


The excuse of all these other frogs being of questionable origin just doesn’t fly, they are established in the hobby now. What was done in the past cant exactly be reversed can it? These frogs weren’t being driven to extinction as are your histos you keep trying to justify, should you have the right to keep these likely laundered frogs at the cost of driving them to extinction in the wild? IMO NO Its been discussed in this very thread so why keep bringing it up?




puckplaya32 said:


> Chris I agree with 100% that there is no way to prove it one way or another, but I for one would not like to be the person that deals with shady animals because the government cant prove they are illegal. Its an ethics questions for the frogs that are already in this country, and IMO a place to start to help stop that perpetual cycle from continuing. As for the auratus argument everyone seems to cling to so dearly, in one way ethically it is on the same level “a smuggled frog is a smuggled frog” but more so the histos/sylvaticus are being drove to extinction due to collectors taking them illicitly while the auratus are not. They are not likely to be established and become abundant , sure a few experienced hobbyiest can produce F1’s but very few can produce F2’s and F3’s. The numbers simply don’t add up and that species is being drove to extinction from a combination of people being naïve, and others who simply just want it. If a deal seems to good to be true it likely is, as is the case of the animals that people get all “iffy” about.





frogfarm said:


> Auratus are not being extirpated from their habitat by collecting. I don`t think anyone is going to smuggle terribilis and call them CB. My galacts and terribilis are from 13 years ago beyond the Lacy act when I didn`t know better. At some point sooner or later we have to stop using the excuse that the hobby is already dirty.
> As someone asked about EU frogs, I don`t know anyone who knows enough about who breeds what and who smuggles what to know for sure on anything. My idea is that I don`t make enough off breeding frogs to sweat out 5 years after my purchase to know? whether something is going to surface about my shipment, the fines are too much. Just because it doesn`t happen now doesn`t mean it never will and 5 years is a long time. Especially if I didn`t get them breeding, they die, I don`t get correct sexes, etc.


Mr.Biggs I like the idea of building the care sheets of the species morph identification cards.


And as to having individual nations police their frogs, most of these countries cant afford to feed their own people let alone worry about the frogs. What kind of thinking is this? The only people in a position to do anything is the hobbyiest in modern countries who can afford to blow their money on frogs, we are not a regulating body but people should demonstrate enough integrity and restraint to do whats right.


----------



## gyuen

ChrisK said:


> Travis, you're making too much sense, that was a great post, a lot of points a couple of us were trying to make this whole time, but fred just basically ignores most of it or brushes it off -
> 
> Ron, you're correct, but I think most of that was aimed specifically at fred for the mentioned and obvious reasons.


Second that!

another suggestion is to have everything open. all those countries should open the door for collectors and or people like Mark Pepper and Marcus. Let them buy lands for farming these frogs/animals, sell their offsprings to anyone in the world. Government collect tax, farmers, make money, we can have any frog we want. Win-Win-Win.

ex: cigarettes vs. drug, both kill, but governments make a lot of money from cigarettes manufacturers, but not drug dealer. and if cigarettes are illegal as drugs, people still would buy them, so why not legalize them and tax them?

g


----------



## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> The excuse of all these other frogs being of questionable origin just doesn’t fly, they are established in the hobby now. What was done in the past cant exactly be reversed can it? These frogs weren’t being driven to extinction as are your histos you keep trying to justify, should you have the right to keep these likely laundered frogs at the cost of driving them to extinction in the wild? IMO NO Its been discussed in this very thread so why keep bringing it up?


I'm not trying to justify ANYTHING because I don't need to, sounds like maybe YOU are because YOU probably own lots of those frogs I mentioned.


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## puckplaya32

Chris you still didnt answer why you keep bringing it up? And no i dont own any of those frogs.


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## gyuen

MrBiggs said:


> Nonetheless, you are telling me that you are actually in Columbia where a large part of the problem you are speaking out against occurs, and you've done nothing that matters? This is a good thread, but in and of itself it is USELESS. ACTION must be taken, and words do not count as action. Making things change does not happen via forum posts, however inflammatory. Change happens when people in the position to do something (you) take up the gauntlet, get off their lazy, forum-posting butts, and DO something. You want to make a difference? Then do!



I did ask Fred if he's doing any thing as to donate money to Marcus or Mark Peppers as to help them for their work on this conservation. At least I buy frogs from them, not just bs. 
As with the saying "bs walk, money talk"
Those say all these bs, why don't they actually do something, if not physically, at least donate. If you can't do either, then you are bs'ing and shouldn't bother post anything here.

my $0.02 


g


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## Julio

gyuen said:


> Second that!
> 
> another suggestion is to have everything open. all those countries should open the door for collectors and or people like Mark Pepper and Marcus. Let them buy lands for farming these frogs/animals, sell their offsprings to anyone in the world. Government collect tax, farmers, make money, we can have any frog we want. Win-Win-Win.
> 
> ex: cigarettes vs. drug, both kill, but governments make a lot of money from cigarettes manufacturers, but not drug dealer. and if cigarettes are illegal as drugs, people still would buy them, so why not legalize them and tax them?
> 
> g


The problem with opening it up for collectors is that they woudl wipe out the population in no time, so a conservation project started and going for a few years is best and then some captive breeding.


----------



## puckplaya32

gyuen said:


> another suggestion is to have everything open. all those countries should open the door for collectors and or people like Mark Pepper and Marcus. Let them buy lands for farming these frogs/animals, sell their offsprings to anyone in the world. Government collect tax, farmers, make money, we can have any frog we want. Win-Win-Win.


This is a good idea as well just how you could ever convince these govt's to do so, I have no clue. By letting sustainable collection programs in everyone could win.


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## ChrisK

What is it that I specifically keep bringing up? And what Adelphobates and Oophaga do you own that are listed in your signature?


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## MrBiggs

puckplaya32 said:


> The excuse of all these other frogs being of questionable origin just doesn’t fly, they are established in the hobby now. What was done in the past cant exactly be reversed can it? These frogs weren’t being driven to extinction as are your histos you keep trying to justify, should you have the right to keep these likely laundered frogs at the cost of driving them to extinction in the wild? IMO NO Its been discussed in this very thread so why keep bringing it up?


Actually, it does fly. Something is either wrong or it's not. If an older, more established species is illegal, it's just as illegal as a histo. It's an all or nothing affair.



puckplaya32 said:


> Mr.Biggs I like the idea of building the care sheets of the species morph identification cards.


It's an idea I've suggested in the past as well, and even started to attempt, but it's an amazingly huge job. I've not the knowledge to do it unfortunately.




puckplaya32 said:


> And as to having individual nations police their frogs, most of these countries cant afford to feed their own people let alone worry about the frogs. What kind of thinking is this? The only people in a position to do anything is the hobbyiest in modern countries who can afford to blow their money on frogs, we are not a regulating body but people should demonstrate enough integrity and restraint to do whats right.


That is exactly my point. We can't rely on those institutions to take care of these problems. Instead we need more individuals in critical areas (such as Columbia, Peru, Germany, etc...) to step up to the plate and start making progress. Individuals exactly like, well, almost exactly like, Fred who are passionate about the subject. Internet forum talking is pretty much pointless for issues that matter. Actions matter.



ChrisK said:


> I'm not trying to justify ANYTHING because I don't need to, sounds like maybe YOU are because YOU probably own lots of those frogs I mentioned.


Hey, no need to degrade what is an almost epicly good thread with unsubstantiated allegations. Step up, be the bigger man, and let it slide. Don't be juvenile and say, 'it takes one to know one!'


----------



## gyuen

Julio said:


> The problem with opening it up for collectors is that they woudl wipe out the population in no time, so a conservation project started and going for a few years is best and then some captive breeding.


at least they are still in the world some where. as i post yesterday, frogs/animal don't extinct from collecting. they extinct from losing their home from forest destroyed by cutting trees to turn them into golf courses, homes, etc..

also, my suggestion is to sell those lands to people like Mark Pepper or Marcus so they can farm these frogs at site and sell their offsprings like what Mark is doing now.

g


----------



## gyuen

puckplaya32 said:


> This is a good idea as well just how you could ever convince these govt's to do so, I have no clue. By letting sustainable collection programs in everyone could win.


well, money talk. tell those governments they can make money off mother nature. 

g


----------



## poison beauties

You guys are still making it about who has iffy frogs and it should be about how to prevent them. If you have a species that has had an iffy import practice it should be viewed as the past as it cant be fixed as getting rid of it would just be the transfer of an iffy frog. If you were holding an illegal or smuggled line froglet you wouldn't know. 
Its that simple, we have to stop them from coming in and work with what we have.
Michael


----------



## Julio

gyuen said:


> at least they are still in the world some where. as i post yesterday, frogs/animal don't extinct from collecting. they extinct from losing their home from forest destroyed by cutting trees to turn them into golf courses, homes, etc..
> 
> also, my suggestion is to sell those lands to people like Mark Pepper or Marcus so they can farm these frogs at site and sell their offsprings like what Mark is doing now.
> 
> g


Yeah, but the prob is acquiring the land, and more then likely it will be government property that won't be for sale.


----------



## puckplaya32

poison beauties said:


> You guys are still making it about who has iffy frogs and it should be about how to prevent them. If you have a species that has had an iffy import practice it should be viewed as the past as it cant be fixed as getting rid of it would just be the transfer of an iffy frog. If you were holding an illegal or smuggled line froglet you wouldn't know.
> Its that simple, we have to stop them from coming in and work with what we have.
> Michael


Agreed, the focus on the past by certain members is getting old.

QUOTE=MrBiggs;475530]Actually, it does fly. Something is either wrong or it's not. If an older, more established species is illegal, it's just as illegal as a histo. It's an all or nothing affair.[/QUOTE]

So if they all are illegal do you suggest we not own frogs that are of questionable origin? That really can only leave UE and SNDF stock for sure. The way I see it is to essentially consider everything that is here “legal” because its very difficult at best to prove otherwise and only regulate anything new that comes in. Looking for real ideas that arent either in left or right field if you know what I mean




MrBiggs said:


> That is exactly my point. We can't rely on those institutions to take care of these problems. Instead we need more individuals in critical areas (such as Columbia, Peru, Germany, etc...) to step up to the plate and start making progress. Individuals exactly like, well, almost exactly like, Fred who are passionate about the subject. Internet forum talking is pretty much pointless for issues that matter. Actions matter.


What sort of individuals are you suggesting? Government figures from their own nations wont have the resources to do so, are you referring to people from the hobby?


Chris,
The argument that driving histos to extinction is on par with the smuggled auratus and phyllobates and adelephobates that were not being driven to extinction and are now established in the hobby. Yes both are smuggled, but only the rare oophagas are being driven to the point of no return. Do you see a difference there? Or is it all black and white? 

And no if you’ve paid any attention to the classified ads as of late, I don’t own any of those frogs an


----------



## Roadrunner

ChrisK said:


> I don't see anyone doing that
> 
> 
> 
> Good thing we're not being hypocritical here eh?


What he said is true. All those frogs are being bred here and only being imported once in a while from EU. The problem here and now is people getting koi histos, which were not known when histos were brought in legally. The site specific ones that are now coming in is the problem. Terribilis smuggling isn`t happening because of the lethality, or bicolor. Tincs have all been imported legally except maybe the french guiana ones. A lot of others were smuggled long ago and are not going extinct because of it. there is a big difference. If people are shunned from having the newest morph that may be from suspect sources then at least the ego driven market may subside.


----------



## ChrisK

OK OK, I can accept the fact that people who point fingers don't like when a mirror is held in front of their face and see their finger pointing back at them.

Especially in the case of lehmanni, I think habitat destruction is more of a culprit than smuggling, and no I'm not making any excuse for smugglers, but why else then can other frogs stand the pressure of much more smuggling?


----------



## puckplaya32

ChrisK said:


> OK OK, I can accept the fact that people who point fingers don't like when a mirror is held in front of their face and see their finger pointing back at them.
> 
> Especially in the case of lehmanni, I think habitat destruction is more of a culprit than smuggling, and no I'm not making any excuse for smugglers, but why else then can other frogs stand the pressure of much more smuggling?


I dont know if you ve noticed NO ONE is pointing a finger at you, you keep making these posts against yourself. There are very few people in this hobby that dont own frogs of questionable origin, including myself in the past and yourself currently. This is about transparency and accepting what is done is done, what is in this country is not going anywhere unless you d rather see the hobby come to a very dramatic end. Is that clear enough for you? 

Lehmanni may be affected by habitat destruction as well, but smuggling is still the larger culprit. There have been first hand accounts given to support this, the habitat was still there but the frogs were gone. Histos/sylvaticus and lehmanni dont produce alot of offspring, they appear to be very choosy breeders some saying they dont even reproduce every year(whether that last part is true i dont know for sure). that and being obligates if the parents are frog-napped all the tads will die, big problem for sustaining a population. The other frogs are far more productive breeders and are able to bounce back from the occasionally smuggling hit, as well if the parents are frog-napped the tads still have a chance of surviving. this makes it easier for the population to repopulate.


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## Roadrunner

Not if they came in more than 5 years ago, the statute of limitations on convicting or catching you under the lacy act. My frogs(terribilis, bicolor, galacts, and azureus) were in this country more than 5 years, actually 13-26 years ago. Now if frogs come in from EU that didn`t come in over 5 years ago, that`s a different story. The problem lies in recent shipments which are still subject to prosecution under the Lacy Act. The problem is not frogs that have been in the country it`s those entering from the last couple years and from here on.



ChrisK said:


> Legal are frogs brought in from UE, illegal are any Brazilian frogs, most Colombian phyllobates and maybe azureus, the rest are unknown because legal imports as well as illegal imports occurred


----------



## ChrisK

puckplaya32 said:


> I dont know if you ve noticed NO ONE is pointing a finger at you, you keep making these posts against yourself.


Yeah you're right noone has pointed any finger at me.... uh, are you sure you read this thread from the beginning?

Yeah, that's just my other personality that keeps posting against myself - you gotta excuse him.


----------



## puckplaya32

Fred did at the beginning and than ceased and tried to bring the thread back on track to people with ideas and a legitimate discussion. You made the hypocritcal remarks and brought it back up.

As to your other personality, cant help you with that lol


----------



## fred

Hi Everyone, 

I started a new thread called: help against the smuggling of protected frogs.

There are a lot of good-willing people here with good ideas; but it all gets a little confusing here with so many posts, discussions and personal remarks going on here.

So lets come together in the other post and work on the problem!

Everyone who wants to go on with discussions, etc., please keep it going on here.

Thanks!


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## Roadrunner

Agreed, trace how there getting into the country considering all this should be listed thru cites and import export permits. Like I said, Peru, Columbia and Costa Rica are big jungley places, how are they supposed keep them from getting out? Check every tourists bag and film cans, look up their butts build a fence? We can`t even keep PEOPLE that are illegal out of ours (They are much harder to smuggle because of their size), so anyone saying don`t let them out of the country isn`t really thinking now are they? It`s just that no one wants to take the responsibility of thinking when purchasing there frogs and they don`t want to be shunned depending on how they get there frogs. 




skylsdale said:


> Keep in mind...this isn't occuring JUST in Colombia, but also Peru (entire populations are being extirpated there as well) and now Costa Rica. To coordinate the efforts to deal with ALL of these countries, each with their own systems of law and government, etc. seems pretty overwhelming. Wouldn't Germany be a logical place to start, assuming that many of the operations and players are centered there?


----------



## Roadrunner

The legality of my frogs that are on the list are not in question as they have been in the country more than 5 years. Have yours? AS Ed said, just because they are allowed into the country they are technically not legal, the import can be questioned for 5 years. After 5 years whether there were papers or not they are somewhat grandfathered I guess. So I guess in another couple years you can say that w/ conviction.



ChrisK said:


> I'm not trying to justify ANYTHING because I don't need to, sounds like maybe YOU are because YOU probably own lots of those frogs I mentioned.


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## Roadrunner

Not as far as the authorities are concerned. If frogs were taken 10 years ago the gov`t won`t go after them, if it is less than five years ago they will. It`s the falsifying of paperwork that makes it illegal. Just as if someone imported Koi Histos that were said to be in the country from past legal exports from Columbia. As that Koi histos weren`t in the hobby back then it would be false and subject to Lacy Act violation. If they weren`t in the hobby from back then as I don`t know.



MrBiggs said:


> Actually, it does fly. Something is either wrong or it's not. If an older, more established species is illegal, it's just as illegal as a histo. It's an all or nothing affair.
> 
> '


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## Roadrunner

Plain out wrong, I stopped buying suspect animals a long time ago after 1 import from EU. When you`ve had those frogs 13 years and I`m criticizing you then it would be a mirror response. As I said, Lacy Act. Statute of limitations.

Did I do wrong in the past, I`m no saint and I can admit it. But I learn and adjust my behavior.



ChrisK said:


> OK OK, I can accept the fact that people who point fingers don't like when a mirror is held in front of their face and see their finger pointing back at them.
> 
> Especially in the case of lehmanni, I think habitat destruction is more of a culprit than smuggling, and no I'm not making any excuse for smugglers, but why else then can other frogs stand the pressure of much more smuggling?


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## ChrisK

frogfarm said:


> Plain out wrong, I stopped buying suspect animals a long time ago after 1 import from EU. When you`ve had those frogs 13 years and I`m criticizing you then it would be a mirror response. As I said, Lacy Act. Statute of limitations.
> 
> Did I do wrong in the past, I`m no saint and I can admit it. But I learn and adjust my behavior.


OK that's great, but I wasn't talking about you.


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## MrBiggs

frogfarm said:


> Not as far as the authorities are concerned. If frogs were taken 10 years ago the gov`t won`t go after them, if it is less than five years ago they will. It`s the falsifying of paperwork that makes it illegal. Just as if someone imported Koi Histos that were said to be in the country from past legal exports from Columbia. As that Koi histos weren`t in the hobby back then it would be false and subject to Lacy Act violation. If they weren`t in the hobby from back then as I don`t know.


As has been discussed at some length, everytime that those illegal frogs are transferred or sold or whatever, the statute of limitations starts over on that infraction. Therefore, while the original illegality has passed into oblivion as far as prosecution goes, the new offenses are still illegal. A la, everything that is actually illegal should be treated equally.


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## skylsdale

ChrisK said:


> Especially in the case of lehmanni, I think habitat destruction is more of a culprit than smuggling, and no I'm not making any excuse for smugglers, but why else then can other frogs stand the pressure of much more smuggling?


I'm curious what studies and/or reports you have read to determine this? I haven't been able to find any that specifically point to habitat destruction in their locales.

Also, not all egg-feeders are the same: from what I understand, species like lehmanni have a generally lower rate of fecundity than species like pumilio. Actually, pumilio seem to THRIVE in areas disturbed by humans: population densities in secondary forest, backyard gardens, garbage piles...all of these types of habitat produce countless deposition sites that pumilio take advantage of. You can't project that onto other oophagous species like histrionica or lehmanni. 

So if they do in fact have a naturally low level of fecundity, and perhaps a preference for certain climatic conditions to arise before they breed well, the odds are already against them if smugglers start hitting them hard. Even researchers attempting to captive breed them in their own country of Colombia have had a difficult time. If you were to add habitat destruction as a factor, I think we end up with a perfect storm of conditions that will ultimately screw this frog...along with very little (if any) hope of it even surviving in captivity. So we could very likely be looking at the absolute extinction of a species.

From what I understand, many of their populations were considered safe because of the remoteness of their localities (e.g. even away from logging and similar practices)...so the fact that smugglers/collectors have managed to do so much damage to the wild populations caught many people off guard.


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## ChrisK

The reports were basically what I had read about the area (honestly I forget where), as well as second hand word of mouth that the whole area is basically cow pasture - one of my best friends is from Colombia and he and his sister pretty much say a lot of the same.


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## fred

Chris,
your best friend is from Colombia; there are about 44 million people in Colombia, do you think everyone has been in the area from the lehmanni, do you think a lot off people here know what is a lehmanni?
There are not many people going to that quiet area, and that has offcourse reasons; it is not very safe, and most people have nothing to seek for there.

The Anchicaya-valley is a beautifull place with a lot of nature; i have seen trees with more then 30 orchid-species on one branch.
There are many places there where the frog could do very well, and probably did, before the poaching began.


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## Ed

frogfarm said:


> The legality of my frogs that are on the list are not in question as they have been in the country more than 5 years. Have yours? AS Ed said, just because they are allowed into the country they are technically not legal, the import can be questioned for 5 years. After 5 years whether there were papers or not they are somewhat grandfathered I guess. So I guess in another couple years you can say that w/ conviction.


Aaron, 

You need to keep in mind that under the Lacey act language, the adults and all offspring remain illegal regardless of how much time has passed. The five years is for the original import, if you or anyone who has gotten the frogs from you then conducts a commercial transaction that ends up in the frogs crossing a state border then a new violation has occured and a new statute clock begins to run. 
If you or anyone else has the frogs, they never are legal. This is why people simply don't wait 5 years and start selling mysteriosis or other species..


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## fred

I can see the tactics people are using to continue the discussion on the other thread instead of here in order to sabotage the other thread, so i won't answer them there.

If you think you are smart, think twice; many people are reading this.

Also organizations who don't like frogs to be held in captivity..

Specially protected animals that are smuggled.

Keep that in mind, with every word you write here on this forum.

Also; everybody else who is not speaking, still gets judged by these words too, that's how it works.

Don't let your hobby be put to shame.


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## Ed

fred said:


> I can see the tactics people are using to continue the discussion on the other thread instead of here in order to sabotage the other thread, so i won't answer them there.
> 
> If you think you are smart, think twice; many people are reading this.
> 
> Also organizations who don't like frogs to be held in captivity..
> 
> Specially protected animals that are smuggled.
> 
> Keep that in mind, with every word you write here on this forum.
> 
> Also; everybody else who is not speaking, still gets judged by these words too, that's how it works.
> 
> Don't let your hobby be put to shame.



Fred, 

Have you considered that you are fear mongering? 

Ed


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## Julio

on top of that, the other threads are all tied into this one, so why go start others?


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## billschwinn

Is Fred trying to offer veiled threats now to conform to his way of thinking with no discourse, this sounds like PETA and the Humaniacs way of acting, bullying tacttics as well. What myself and others write are our opinion which is so far a freedom we still enjoy in our great country! I hope others will not stand for intimidation, Bill


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## MrBiggs

fred said:


> I can see the tactics people are using to continue the discussion on the other thread instead of here in order to sabotage the other thread, so i won't answer them there.


Tactics like logical reasoning, rational debate, multi-step thinking, and complex reasoning? Yes, you are correct, some of us do purposefully employ those 'tactics'. Please try them out sometime, they really are amazing tools.


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## thedude

Aaron, this right here....


frogfarm said:


> What he said is true. All those frogs are being bred here and only being imported once in a while from EU. The problem here and now is people getting koi histos, which were not known when histos were brought in legally. The site specific ones that are now coming in is the problem. Terribilis smuggling isn`t happening because of the lethality, or bicolor. Tincs have all been imported legally except maybe the french guiana ones. A lot of others were smuggled long ago and are not going extinct because of it. there is a big difference. If people are shunned from having the newest morph that may be from suspect sources then at least the ego driven market may subside.


THANK YOU. thats exactly the point.

chris...


ChrisK said:


> Especially in the case of lehmanni, I think habitat destruction is more of a culprit than smuggling, and no I'm not making any excuse for smugglers, but why else then can other frogs stand the pressure of much more smuggling?


it should be no secret that these frogs dont breed a lot. as ron said, they arent pumilio. all oophaga arent created equal.




frogfarm said:


> Agreed, trace how there getting into the country considering all this should be listed thru cites and import export permits. Like I said, Peru, Columbia and Costa Rica are big jungley places, how are they supposed keep them from getting out? Check every tourists bag and film cans, look up their butts build a fence? We can`t even keep PEOPLE that are illegal out of ours (They are much harder to smuggle because of their size), so anyone saying don`t let them out of the country isn`t really thinking now are they? It`s just that no one wants to take the responsibility of thinking when purchasing there frogs and they don`t want to be shunned depending on how they get there frogs.


again, this is exactly right, IMO.


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## Enlightened Rogue

I`m sorry to say this but this is seriously becoming laughable at this point.

2 threads and 50 pages.
You know what people- if you have Histo`s good luck with them and you might want to think twice about posting pictures of them here.
Again, sorry.

John


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## ChrisK

thedude said:


> chris...
> 
> 
> it should be no secret that these frogs dont breed a lot. as ron said, they arent pumilio. all oophaga arent created equal.


Thanks for the heads-up, but I got a little experience with Panamanian, Colombian and Costa Rican oophaga. That doesn't change my opinion that if lehmanni and their habitat were protected more than just administratively, they would be much better off


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## ChrisK

Enlightened Rogue said:


> I`m sorry to say this but this is seriously becoming laughable at this point.
> 
> 2 threads and 50 pages.
> You know what people- if you have Histo`s good luck with them and you might want to think twice about posting pictures of them here.
> Again, sorry.
> 
> John


Point very well taken.


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## thedude

ChrisK said:


> Thanks for the heads-up, but I got a little experience with Panamanian, Colombian and Costa Rican oophaga. That doesn't change my opinion that if lehmanni and their habitat were protected more than just administratively, they would be much better off


i know of your experience with oophaga, and its great. i applaud you. but as has been mentioned, there IS intact lehmanni habitat, yet no lehmanni. certain parts of their habitat just isnt accessible for agriculture or cow pasture, so its there and again, intact. if people werent taking every single one they found, the frogs would be just fine


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## ChrisK

thedude said:


> i know of your experience with oophaga, and its great. i applaud you. but as has been mentioned, there IS intact lehmanni habitat, yet no lehmanni. certain parts of their habitat just isnt accessible for agriculture or cow pasture, so its there and again, intact. if people werent taking every single one they found, the frogs would be just fine


I guess you didn't read my second sentence there, huh.


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## Baltimore Bryan

This thread has gotten really long...
Personally, I think we should not discourage the people who already have them. While I don't support illegal smuggling, I think what is done is done and as for what to do with the frogs already here, weather legal or not, captive bred or not, etc., I think sending them back to Colombia would not help much. I can't see them being re-introduced. Instead, I hope the people who have them can successfully breed and we can improve on methods of successful breeding with these frogs. I am afraid that because of things like this, people may be afraid to say they have these frogs. I am very glad that some people have been posting pictures and information about these guys. I unfortunately have not been able to see one in real life, and there isn't much info out there. I think informing people about success/ failure and having discussions and theories on these frogs will lead to a lot more learning and success with everyone working with these species, rather than keeping quiet about them all the time. Again, I have no experience with histrionicus, I just got my first pumilio to feed tads today so I'm still quite new to Oophaga, this is just my $.02. 
BTW, if there was some sort of farming/captive breeding program down in Colombia like UE, many people here (including myself,) would certainly be willing to donate/ support said programs.
Bryan


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## Catfur

Since we've passed the realm of productive discussion, and are headed at breakneck speed to the land of name calling and shouting, I'm closing this.


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