# Atelopus spumarius hoogmoedi



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Some quick photos after being reintroduced to his tank after a long car ride. More to come in the following days/weeks...


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow, outstanding. Find that guy a girlfriend!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

now just find him a lady and get the rest of us some babies!!!!

whats going on w/ his left rear thighin the second to last pic? theres some brownish spot...

james


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

yeah, i wish. 

haha, i saw that as well and freaked for a second, until i realized it was a piece of a rotting leaf on his thigh.


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

my jealousy cannot be formed into words, was he part of the European import a year or two ago?


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

cloning instead of finding a female?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

He is a LTC import from a few years ago, I believe.

I've considered that Doug, but what to use as an oocyte host? Either way, with mitochondrial DNA any resulting offspring wouldn't be exact genotypic matches.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Sorry I missed this fellow while I still lived in Boston. Good luck with him and I hope you can find a partner.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

johnc said:


> Sorry I missed this fellow while I still lived in Boston. Good luck with him and I hope you can find a partner.


I know, wish you could be here to photograph him!!


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> I know, wish you could be here to photograph him!!


It looks like I'll be in Boston the night before Shawn's BBQ if you want to meet up. I'd love to see this fellow.


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

Amazing!!! How big are these toads?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ghettopieninja said:


> my jealousy cannot be formed into words, was he part of the European import a year or two ago?


No, he was not part of the European imports. I don't think any of those made it over here as I was unable to find a match at that time as well. There were about three consecutive years of small imports ending about 5 years ago and he is from the last imports of that time (most of the prior years were picked up by ABG). 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks for chiming in Ed!


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

Ed said:


> No, he was not part of the European imports. I don't think any of those made it over here as I was unable to find a match at that time as well. There were about three consecutive years of small imports ending about 5 years ago and he is from the last imports of that time (most of the prior years were picked up by ABG).
> 
> Ed



I had always wondered what happened to those last american imports as little is ever said about them, I'm glad ABG acquire most of them.


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## frogandtoad (Apr 24, 2009)

Nice! Atelopus are so beautiful... You can't really describe it unless you see them in person.

Even though you probably won't find a mate for him, at least he's in good hands.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

hukilausurfer said:


> Amazing!!! How big are these toads?


Yeah really nice, how big do they get? Howcome you took him for a ride?


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> He is a LTC import from a few years ago, I believe.
> 
> I've considered that Doug, but what to use as an oocyte host? Either way, with mitochondrial DNA any resulting offspring wouldn't be exact genotypic matches.


It seems like I remember seeing somewhere that you can use dinosaur DNA to fill in the gaps.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

hahaha... I'd likely use Xenopus since the oocytes are damn huge but hey, dino DNA works for me.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

ChrisK said:


> Yeah really nice, how big do they get? Howcome you took him for a ride?


He is about the size of a large bumblebee toad. This video will give you a very good estimate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T00cnsrsFiI

Picked him up in NJ while visiting the folks.... also came home with my first hyla.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Cool pretty small, got some ebracatta too huh? Don't keep them anywhere near where you plan on sleeping haha...........


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

haha, are they loud? My wife asked the question when I mentioned that they are noctural....should be reallll interesting.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Yeah they got a nice sharp little call to 'em


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

very nie Ray, hope you can get a mate for him soon.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ghettopieninja said:


> I had always wondered what happened to those last american imports as little is ever said about them, I'm glad ABG acquire most of them.


Little is ever said about them as they had slightly better luck than most of the people that aquired them but about the same luck in breeding them that I did (although they did get two infertile clutches). As in my case they lost the females before the males and when I asked about them about 2 years ago, they only had some males left. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Cool pretty small, got some ebracatta too huh? Don't keep them anywhere near where you plan on sleeping haha...........


My ebracattus live across the hall from the bed room.. it isn't too bad unless they think it has been raining... 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Nice, I'm really digging them, love how they really use the large aroids to swing around their enclosure.


On another note, pretty interesting paper:
http://www.atelopus.com/pdf/Noonan_Gaucher_05.pdf


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

Ed said:


> Little is ever said about them as they had slightly better luck than most of the people that aquired them but about the same luck in breeding them that I did (although they did get two infertile clutches). As in my case they lost the females before the males and when I asked about them about 2 years ago, they only had some males left.
> 
> Ed


I knew they had a lot of trouble with the females, would they fail to release the eggs and then die? that's what I seem to remember people saying.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ghettopieninja said:


> I knew they had a lot of trouble with the females, would they fail to release the eggs and then die? that's what I seem to remember people saying.


Or they would prolapse the eggs and die. 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

YouTube - Atelopus spumarius 'hoogmoedi'


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Very nice, Ray. Now that signature needs a serious update .


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Cool to see how active it is.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)




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## Elphaba (Aug 26, 2007)

Sweet pics.  What a gorgeous little guy!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

That is his roost. He climbs up there about 45 min before lights out and climbs down a bit after lights on, without fail, every day. Its freakishly cool.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

We need a Facebook-esque "Like" button.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I used to estimate when I had to do somethings by his actions.. 
Glad to see he has settled in so well for you and that you are enjoying him. 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Bump for those interested in working with this species....


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## Zombie Frawg (Aug 31, 2010)

I was just talking to Ed about Atelopus! Wish my budget would allow me to get some.


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

Ray,
I worked with and bred_ A. zetecki_ while I was at the Bronx Zoo. Does _A. spumarius hoogmoedi_ wave also?

Thanks,
Jim


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Cool! No, they don't. That characteristic evolved due to the noise surrounding the rivers they inhabit. A. spumarius is a lowland species of Atelopus. 

That said, they are still pretty damn cool.


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## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

Ray,
Do you know Dr. Kevin Zippel? I feel he might be a good resource for the natural behavior of this species. If you don't let me know and I will see what he can do.

Jim


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

I love the wave.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Dendrobatid said:


> Ray,
> I worked with and bred_ A. zetecki_ while I was at the Bronx Zoo. Does _A. spumarius hoogmoedi_ wave also?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jim


Hey Jim,

what years were you there?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)




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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Hahaha, I figured you would be making a post like this soon! 

Nice shots. How many in all did you end up getting? (looks like 3?)

Good luck on the QT etc etc!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, would have been 12 but do to a hellish day, just 6. More soon.


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## Ross (Feb 10, 2008)

Best of luck with these! I'm sure most of us would like to see more of these guys available in the hobby.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, got a female, and a whole bunch more males. Good times! Now the really, really hard part starts....

Here she is (check out the bespeckled venter!)


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## tim13 (Feb 1, 2011)

These are great looking animals! Are they that hard to take care of? Everything I read on these guys says its impossible to find a female, and harder still to breed them.


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Here she is (check out the bespeckled venter!)



Is that a sex indicator? Thanks, JVK


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Looks to be. I read field notes that stated females have more black venter markings and she is def indicative of this observation.


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Awesome luck Ray!

They still going to stay in QT or are you going to try the rain chamber?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Prob qt until I decide


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Awesome pictures Ray. I won't bug you again about Danny Boy wanting a spare male but I'll trade my first born son. hahah just kidding...Next time you see my with Kingsley don't tell her I said that lol 

Glad to see they're healthy!


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

If she's ovulating, I would think you would have no choice, I guess. Seems the genus is incapable of reabsorbing egg masses? Have you heard all the presumed males call? I would set them up immediately in a fast powerhead over rocks if she is "fat", IMO. The thing is, I've found some conjecture online that the species lays in restricted locations? For instance, i found something about "casti" tads feeding on the eggs of spumarius etc.? That would mean nut pods etc.? That just makes no sense for the genus! 

Mine are DOA, very sad...and beyond... to say the least.  

Both were "males" based on your earlier observation of lacking pigment on the venter, to be expected, but would have liked to see them in action though. Didn't realize they are so tiny! Good luck, JVK


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

jkooiman said:


> If she's ovulating, I would think you would have no choice, I guess. Seems the genus is incapable of reabsorbing egg masses? Have you heard all the presumed males call? I would set them up immediately in a fast powerhead over rocks if she is "fat", IMO. The thing is, I've found some conjecture online that the species lays in restricted locations? For instance, i found something about "casti" tads feeding on the eggs of spumarius etc.? That would mean nut pods etc.? That just makes no sense for the genus!


 I've heard from several hobbyists that there is misinformation circulating that A. spumarius (or A. hoogmoedi, for Corey ) will lay in small, still water (like darts). This apparently is not true, as they require moving, highly oxygenated water. The eggs are also sensitive to light, and are generally laid on the underside of rocks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

zBrinks said:


> I've heard from several hobbyists that there is misinformation circulating that A. spumarius (or A. hoogmoedi, for Corey ) will lay in small, still water (like darts). This apparently is not true, as they require moving, highly oxygenated water. The eggs are also sensitive to light, and are generally laid on the underside of rocks.


 
I have had several people report the same thing to me as well... It was even circulating overseas... 

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

What about getting a large, clear, rubbermaid bin and drill holes and install bulkheads?

Then, get a maxijet powerhead with aerator, put it in a sump, and then have it circulate back to the tank? Would making a rain chamber help?


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

jkooiman said:


> If she's ovulating, I would think you would have no choice, I guess. Seems the genus is incapable of reabsorbing egg masses? Have you heard all the presumed males call? I would set them up immediately in a fast powerhead over rocks if she is "fat", IMO. The thing is, I've found some conjecture online that the species lays in restricted locations? For instance, i found something about "casti" tads feeding on the eggs of spumarius etc.? That would mean nut pods etc.? That just makes no sense for the genus!
> 
> Mine are DOA, very sad...and beyond... to say the least.
> 
> Both were "males" based on your earlier observation of lacking pigment on the venter, to be expected, but would have liked to see them in action though. Didn't realize they are so tiny! Good luck, JVK


I'm sorry to hear that!  

I've seen this species at Ray's house before....it's pretty small as far as others in the genus huh? 

Anyone have a species list of atelopus?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

As I've seen in person almost all that came in with these recent imports, I can say that the first group was in much better condition, much more fat reserves, etc. The males from the last import were also bigger than those which I received today. Not sure if that means thru are being held longer in suriname or what but just FYI. Also, the mix of yellow with yellow venters and white with white venters is interesting to say the least. Of the 18 males and 1 female I've looked at, about 5 were white on white, all males. 

Regarding the female, she doesn't look thin but def doesn't look gravid (like some of the boys do). I'm going to feed her, get her acclimated, and then decide what to do.

Jesse, I had 7 arrive frozen last week....it kills. So sorry. I'll have extra boys for sure in a few months after they are acclimated.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

DJboston said:


> Anyone have a species list of atelopus?


http://amphibiaweb.org/cgi-bin/amphib_query?rel-common_name=like&rel-family=equals&rel-ordr=equals&rel-isocc=like&rel-description=like&rel-distribution=like&rel-life_history=like&rel-trends_and_threats=like&rel-relation_to_humans=like&rel-comments=like&rel-submittedby=like&query_src=aw_search_index&max=200&orderbyaw=Family&where-scientific_name=Atelopus&where-common_name=&where-subfamily=&where-family=any&where-ordr=any&where-isocc=&rel-species_account=matchboolean&where-species_account=&rel-declinecauses=equals&where-declinecauses=&rel-iucn=equals&where-iucn=&rel-cites=equals&where-cites=&where-submittedby=


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Rain_Frog said:


> What about getting a large, clear, rubbermaid bin and drill holes and install bulkheads?
> 
> Then, get a maxijet powerhead with aerator, put it in a sump, and then have it circulate back to the tank? Would making a rain chamber help?


Pretty much the plan, Doug. Either that or a 55 gallon.


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

Thanks for the list..didn't realize it was such a huge list. 

Ray, I knew breeding wouldn't be easy but I had no idea you'd have to rig up such an involved system. If you need an extra hand around putting it together let me know. I know it's tough trying to juggle something like this alone.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Female is settled in, some bad photos below.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ray, can you stick a male next to her in a photo please.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Start cranking those bad boys out!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> Ray, can you stick a male next to her in a photo please.


yeah, I'll try, been trying to keep each isolated as the males like to wrestle. Now everyone has their own large bin with lots of leaf litter and aroids...and i have zero room to move in my frog room.


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## Phyllobates (Dec 12, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> yeah, I'll try, been trying to keep each isolated as the males like to wrestle. Now everyone has their own large bin with lots of leaf litter and aroids...and i have zero room to move in my frog room.


That might warrant a photo in and of itself


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'd need a panoramic lens... seriously, I have so much stuff growing up and coming oow its crazy. I can't wait for Frogday to just clear stuff out!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

why wait? just send it all my way 

james


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

haha, yeah, i really wanted to wait and avoid shipping but ive started to ship some things. looking forward to making room after frogday (assuming i can refrain from buying anything there...)


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## DJboston (Oct 25, 2008)

stemcellular said:


> haha, yeah, i really wanted to wait and avoid shipping but ive started to ship some things. looking forward to making room after frogday (assuming i can refrain from buying anything there...)


Refrain from buying anything there? hahahahahah I don't think that will be easy.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

http://homepage.univie.ac.at/walter.hoedl/Luger etal Stud_neotrop 2008.pdf

http://evolutionsbiologie.univie.ac...oad/dep_evolutionsbiologie/Hödl/luger2009.pdf


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

"The streambed is 3 m wide
on average; water depth varies between 10
and 80 cm. nie stream gradient results in
numerous small cascades with splash zones
and pools below. Stream banks consist of
sand, gravel and large boulders. Several fallen
trees are found alongside and across the
stream. The vegetation bordering the stream
margin was mainly composed of Heliconia
sp. and other herbaceous plants such as ferns
and palms. Mean air temperature during the
study period (taken every two hours day and
night with four Gemini data loggers) was
23.0 tr 0.96 'C (range 20.8-27.6 'C; n = 1,500);
total precipitation was 1,250 mm (measured
continuously with an automatic rain gauge)."


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

thanks for the two papers, I pulled like 15 papers off of JSTOR the other day in hopes of find any further information I could about spumarius, especially habitat descriptions so this was great!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

If you have received some of the recent import, I'd like to keep your information on record as we should do our best to maximize the genetics of these guys in the hobby. I'd be especially interested in talking to others with females as we need to do all we can to make sure any potential offspring are managed properly.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Breeding setup

Pre-planted





Planted





Boys were calling like nuts last night and this morning...will introduce the female sometime this week.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Has anyone else gotten any from the latest imports?

We are keeping a record, so please chime in or PM. There is a small discussion going on amongst the known keepers, in hopes of increasing out success.

Best,


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Has the "speckled venter sexing method" proven to be cast-iron on the few females that came in? Thanks, JVK


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I believe so


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

I assume the "whiter" colored individuals are entirely a simple population color variance. Your female possesses the "whiter" coloration judging the pics. Has anyone noticed the females are predominantly of this coloration? Or is their coloration all over the place? Are "they," (the females that came in) noticeably ovulating? Thanks! JVK


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

that looks like a good breeding setup Ray. I've never bred Atelopus in such shallow water or with such a gentile flow so it will be interesting to see how they take to it. Do you plan on raising the tads in the same enclosure?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

thanks, yeah, its going to be trial and error. Thankfully I have the ability to add/detract, add more water, filtration/flow, depending on the circumstances. 

Ron G. recommended using the breeding tank and if tads result then taking the adults out and raising the water level, etc. Totally possible in this setup and I would then add a bulkhead, etc for increased H20 flow.


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

One of mine is a bit "robins egg blue" though you can't tell from the pic. Pretty skinny though  , I'm going on a termite collecting mission here in a bit. JVK


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It doesn't look that skinny from that picture. 

Ed


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> It doesn't look that skinny from that picture.
> 
> Ed


They're both eating, just a little thin. Not nearly as voracious as Melanophryniscus though. That pic sure is crappy, he's really quite blue. JVK


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Inventive setup but don't these frogs like fast moving highly oxygenated streams?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jkooiman said:


> They're both eating, just a little thin. Not nearly as voracious as Melanophryniscus though. That pic sure is crappy, he's really quite blue. JVK


Even when they have good weight, they look thin if you compare them to dendrobatids or standard bufonids.... Think more along the lines of how some Phyllomedusa (like hypochondrialis) look when compared to H. cinerea or H. gratiosa.... 
They much slower hunters than most species people have worked with (and this is the same in A. zeteki or A. varius)

Ed


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## asturianu (Jul 23, 2005)

Ray,

Quick question. I see in the videos that you use the Steralite containers and you were able to cut out a section in the middle of the lid. How did you do it? I tried, but had some difficulty doing it.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

asturianu said:


> Ray,
> 
> Quick question. I see in the videos that you use the Steralite containers and you were able to cut out a section in the middle of the lid. How did you do it? I tried, but had some difficulty doing it.


Carefully, using a knife to start and then scissors.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

i use a jigsaw cutter.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

asturianu said:


> Ray,
> 
> Quick question. I see in the videos that you use the Steralite containers and you were able to cut out a section in the middle of the lid. How did you do it? I tried, but had some difficulty doing it.


Hole saw. 

Ed


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## asturianu (Jul 23, 2005)

Ed, 

With the hole saw, do you just make a bunch of small holes in the lid and cover them with screen or what do you do?


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## frogboy (Sep 25, 2010)

I wish i could get some of these, but my dad (pumilo) doesn't want any other frogs besides darts in the house. So I will probably get some when i move out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

asturianu said:


> Ed,
> 
> With the hole saw, do you just make a bunch of small holes in the lid and cover them with screen or what do you do?


 
For my quarantine containers I make two 2.5 inch holes on one end of the lid and hot glue fruit fly proof mesk to the outside and then trim to neaten it up. I also usually put two on the side of the containerjabout an inch above the substrate line and hot glue to cover them. This way I can either set the lid on so it creates air circulation from one end up and out or I can place them the same side which changes the draft, or I can place an unmodified lid on the cage to keep up the moisture while still allowing some fresh air circulation (as the holes are lower in the container, CO2 will drain out.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)




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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Decided to try to get them going. Within 30minutes of turning on the water, amplexus! Hope it pans out!


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Good luck! Mine are doing well, seem to have an affinity for bean beetles. JVK


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)




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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

Don't miss your show! Ha,ha. Weird behavior in the female though, that jerky motion. Is that a good=receptive behavior, or the opposite? Good luck!JVK


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

looks normal to me...based on personal experience.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Getting them to amplex is easy, getting them to deposit fertile eggs is hard. 

Males will amplex females even when there isn't any rain or other breeding stimulation. People have to keep in mind that the females don't approach the streams to breed until they are ready to deposit eggs. So unlike a lot of other anurans, raining them doesn't mean that the females will go into breeding condition. 

Ed


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

thanks Ed. hope it works out, if not, can always try later.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

You're in actual induced-by-keeper breeding territory now as opposed to letting them do their thing (dartfrogs). Good luck!


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

thanks! its been six months and the female seems very happy. so that is a step forward...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Some new photos:

Male






















































Female


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Wow that's a really cool frog.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ray we can't see the videos of the breeding set up,did you change something,also what were the results of amplexus?
regards
Stu


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Round 2, year 2.

Lets hope I have more success this time....

Shawn


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

OMG i want that frog lol. I love yellow or orange frogs, thats why Im goin with leucs as my first.


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

I love this shot!

Female


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Is it the camera flash or the viv lights in the pic? From what I know those eggs are light sensitive. If they being hit by the lights from the vivs Id probably kill the lights.

COngrats on the breeding again.



sports_doc said:


> Round 2, year 2.
> 
> Lets hope I have more success this time....
> 
> Shawn


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^

yeah, lights are off now....


although they developed last year, and I didnt go to any real lengths to shade them much.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Who is importing these legally? Are they as fragile as once believed? I would like some A. flavs eventually, but for some reason I thought they were not legally imported. Is everyone's stock offspring from illegal imports? This is in no way an attempt to say someone in this thread has done something wrong/illegal, I just was hoping for some clarity. Beautiful pics from Ray, and interesting pics from Shawn, all my thanks for sharing! Is it fair to assume(based on pics provided) that females have more angular facial structure compared to the males, or is this simply individual variation? Again, all my thanks!

Best of luck with the eggs Shawn, and congrats to you on a job well done...!

JBear


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

They were legally imported from Suriname in relatively small numbers. From what I understand, they will not be coming in again any time soon. I don't believe anyone has had luck breeding them and raising the offspring up to adults, either.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

zBrinks said:


> They were legally imported from Suriname in relatively small numbers. *From what I understand, they will not be coming in again any time soon*. I don't believe anyone has had luck breeding them and raising the offspring up to adults, either.


Any reasons for the stopped importation? Again, simply out of curiousity...

Thanks for the info!!!

JBear


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

They are fairly difficult to collect in large numbers, from what I understand. The quota was set fairly high last year, and they didn't even come close to meeting it.


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

Good luck! I'll donate an extra canister filter to anyone who needs more flow. (Eheim 2213)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jbherpin said:


> Any reasons for the stopped importation? Again, simply out of curiousity...
> 
> Thanks for the info!!!
> 
> JBear


One of the main reasons there is such spotty importation is because they are only easily collected when they come down to the streams to breed (which is why there is such a huge disparity between males and females when they come in.. on occasion the sex ration exceeds ten to 1). Outside of that time they disperse widely into the surrounding forest and since they aren't territorial, they are hard to find out of season. 

Ed


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Ed said:


> One of the main reasons there is such spotty importation is because they are only easily collected when they come down to the streams to breed (which is why there is such a huge disparity between males and females when they come in.. on occasion the sex ration exceeds ten to 1). Outside of that time they disperse widely into the surrounding forest and since they aren't territorial, they are hard to find out of season.
> 
> Ed


To avoid the hijacking of a *GOOD* thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/689628-post1.html

JBear


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Ed,

Start me off again on the right path for feeding the tads...

Last year they only lasted a few weeks.

This time the tank certainly is covered in algae/ green and brown.

And I have 5 containers aside growing also....green/brown algae.

I think though....it isnt enough.

Growing diatoms outside in containers, in January....isnt gonna happen.

How can I get more food for them??

Then NEVER took to the spirulina paste idea we tried last year.

S


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

don't diatoms need silica in order to form?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

You could grow the diatoms in tubs of temp controlled water with rocks. Switching out the rocks in the tad tads should be easy enough. Going to need some decent water curculation as well. Im sure your already on top of that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

sports_doc said:


> Ed,
> Start me off again on the right path for feeding the tads...
> Last year they only lasted a few weeks.
> This time the tank certainly is covered in algae/ green and brown.
> ...


Hi Shawn,

If they follow the behaviors of zeteki and varius, then they won't feed on the sides/bottom/surface of the tank. They need something simulating a smooth round stone... As for growing diatoms outside, the first clutch of zeteki (the ones laid in the plastic bag during the flight into the US), were fed off of diatom collected stones collected from a nearby stream through the winter (the keepers had to go and break the ice to collect them). 

Later clutches, were offered a fish flake (complete not just spirulina) paste spread onto the stones. However if the tadpoles follow the reports for zeteki, varius and flavescens, the tadpoles won't feed unless the water quality is extremely good (ammonia <0, nitrite <0, nitrate < 20 ppm). Typically stream dwelling species are intolerant of water quality issues... For example if I remember correctly, one of the reports for flavescens had the tadpoles refusing food, piling up in the corners of the tanks and dieing and this was thought to be related to water quality. 

Good luck, 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> You could grow the diatoms in tubs of temp controlled water with rocks. Switching out the rocks in the tad tads should be easy enough. Going to need some decent water curculation as well. Im sure your already on top of that.


ceramic tiles might be a good alternative to rocks


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

PVC spacers work well too - that's what the Detroit Zoo did with A. zeteki.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

They also used liquid fertilizers/supplements to encourage brown diatom growth. I have some at home that I used with success. I can post the info for you later if you'd like; I got it from one of the zoo staff that worked with the original AZA imports. 

Edit - I found the email:

"About diatoms, you can order the nutrients from Aquatic Ecosystems F/2 Solution A and B and make sure when growing diatoms to order the sodium metasilicate. They sell only 1gallon sizes of each solution, so he may want to get it from Florida Aqua Farms if he is doing this small scale. He can find both places online. Florida Aquafarms sells it as Micro Algae Grow. Again,, make sure he gets the sodium metasilicate with it. He can order some diatoms from these guys as well, or just do what we used to and use the generic diatom that appears in any fish tank and scatter that over any object he is going to use for feeding the tadpoles, add nutrients and high light and wait. "


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

^ I contacted them by email tonight....will see what they can do to help.

S


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

sports_doc said:


> ^ I contacted them by email tonight....will see what they can do to help.
> 
> S


since they are rather adverse to water purity issues, I take it you'll be culturing in a separate container? If so, what type of set-up were you thinking about?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

PRODUCT INFORMATION--

Quantity: 1
Product: MICRO ALGAE GROW MASS PACK™ ( ea.)
Options: Choose from the following list............................
FA-MPSl ............. One Mass Pack with silicate( specify dry or moist pack) . 2.9 lbs $ 26.70
Cost (each): $ 26.70
Item Subtotal: $ 26.70


Quantity: 1
Product: LIQUID SILICATE SOLUTION ( ea.)
Options: FA-SS6............... Silicate solution, 6oz (200ml) .............................................. 7 oz $ 3.50
Cost (each): $ 3.50
Item Subtotal: $ 3.50


Order placed for nutrients.
Unfortunately they no longer sell Diatoms themselves.

I will try and culture from tanks, using fishtanks/ air stone and the nutrients.....on PVC.

S


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## stevenhman (Feb 19, 2008)

You may be able to source some diatoms from various fish forums...?

It seems like they consider it a pest/problem.

Here are a couple of sites to get you started (just in case you haven't tried them already):

The Planted Tank - Articles, Forums, Pictures, Links
Cichlid-Forum.com


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

From what can be determined from varius and zeteki, diatoms are not required to rear them (hence the smearing of a fish flake paste working).,. That is just the algae that is prevelent in thier habitat. Structure in the other species along with water quality seem to be the more important determinents. 

Ed


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

You need some silica sand and lots of phosphate in the water. Then some good lighting. Bam, you got diatomic algae. Of course, seeding it will get it going quickly. I hate the stuff in some of my tanks. 



sports_doc said:


> Ed,
> 
> Start me off again on the right path for feeding the tads...
> 
> ...


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, after a dry cycle, followed by a few weeks of heavy feeding, and now frequent misting, Ive moved them into the rainchamber.

Here's hoping!


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## Frog pool13 (Oct 30, 2013)

Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but any breeding activities so far this year? I am going to be attempting to breed my 2.1.0 trio of atelopus spumarius hoogmoedi and atelopus spumarius bartoleminus this year and am looking for any info I can get on breeding them. So far I've had lots of courting and calling from the males in just their housing tank. I am intending to introduce them to their breeding set up later this month.

Frog Pool


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