# Name that tinc. Little help please.



## hpglow

Here is the background story on these. A friend in my local reef club came to me about three months agao and said "hey I have a friend with some dart frogs that are breeding like crazy and needs a good home for three juviniles that he has no room for." I told him no problem but I would need a couple days to set up a viv for them, so I asked what kind of dart frog they were and I was told "standard blue." Well that didn't help me at all, I figured they would be Azereus so I setup for that. I got the frogs a couple days later and they looked like they could be Cobalts, but the more I look at them compared to pics of cobalts the less I am convinced. The owner of the breeding pair bought them from a pet store and has no idea the breed either. Lets face it he was lucky the pet store knew the dietary needs of these creatures. So there you have it look at my piss poor pic and tell me what you think. I am thinking that they are Oyopok now. This picture is of the most yellow of the three I have, the other two are much more baby blue but the same pattern.


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## frogparty

im guessing oyapok or patricia, but without proper id you will NEVER be sure


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## frogmanroth

my vote is for patricia- need a better pic though and maybe a belly shot. or a pic of all 3?


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## billschwinn

To me it looks like an Azurius cross with cobalt maybe.


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## hpglow

frogmanroth said:


> my vote is for patricia- need a better pic though and maybe a belly shot. or a pic of all 3?


It is hard to get a shot of these guys, they are out often but when I get close to the tank they run and hide. I should have gotten a pic when they were in the deli cups.


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## hpglow

billschwinn said:


> To me it looks like an Azurius cross with cobalt maybe.


That is actually a small concern of mine. I know that there are a few hobbyists in the area cross breading tincs. It wouldn't surprise me if they found their way into pet stores after the breeder found out that most enthusiasts wouldn't buy them.


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## Philsuma

You could....find the pet store.

Inquire about the breeder.

Let us know what you find out.


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## Woodsman

Oyapoks don't have any yellow coloration to them. The frog is still young, so it may change over time. Given it's current appearance, a good guess would be Patricia.

I agree, though, with Phil. You should do as much fact-finding as possible. While many pet stores are not really set-up for dart frogs, they shouldn't be thought of as black market dealers trying to push "hybrid" frogs on an unaware public. It is our work to become as informed about our frogs as possible.

Good luck, Richard.


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## hpglow

I will do my best to track down the store that they were purchased at and talk to someone who knows something. I am not expecting much, but I suppose there is someone there that may know something.

I don't really feel that these are hybrids. I have seen a Cobalt-Azurius mix in person before and it didn't quite look the same. At the same time I am not going to rule out the possibility.


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## Arrynia

hpglow said:


> I will do my best to track down the store that they were purchased at and talk to someone who knows something. I am not expecting much, but I suppose there is someone there that may know something.
> 
> I don't really feel that these are hybrids. I have seen a Cobalt-Azurius mix in person before and it didn't quite look the same. At the same time I am not going to rule out the possibility.


While you are 'interogating'  , do some advocacy and inform the pet stores about the potential of purchasing hybrids and what hybrids mean to the DF keeper community.


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## laylow

I've seen young Oyapock froglets that have a yellow hue to them but as they get older loose it. I dont see the patricia in that picture, may be just me but my patricias are BRIGHT yellow, there is no mistaken them from a oyapock. Just my two cents but I'd say Oyapock if there is any white at all. How old are these froglets any idea?


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## JoshK

laylow said:


> I've seen young Oyapock froglets that have a yellow hue to them but as they get older loose it. I dont see the patricia in that picture, may be just me but my patricias are BRIGHT yellow, there is no mistaken them from a oyapock. Just my two cents but I'd say Oyapock if there is any white at all. How old are these froglets any idea?



I would agree, that looks nothing like any Patricia I have ever seen. *

If *it were a cross, I would guess Oyapock and Cobalt. If it isn't, I would guess Oyapok. 
If it were me, I would put 100% effort into finding out where these frogs came from, and the sooner the better.


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## Arrynia

bakhuis or blue sip, perhaps?


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## WVFROGGER23

Bakhuis have a lot of bright yellow and black even as froglets.


Withought better pics it is hard to tell. Might even be a patricia. It would be easier to tell under better lighting so we could get a look at the colors better. Here is a link from one of the sponsors, might help. http://www.simplynaturaldartfrogs.com/galleryfstinc.html


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## snmreptiles

I have both Oyapoks and Patricia...There really is a HUGE difference in the two, and the pic you have doesn't look like either! Sorry to make it tougher. You could come look for yourself at both if you think it would help, I am about 40 minutes from ya!!

Mike
Welcome to the home of


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## hpglow

laylow said:


> I've seen young Oyapock froglets that have a yellow hue to them but as they get older loose it. I dont see the patricia in that picture, may be just me but my patricias are BRIGHT yellow, there is no mistaken them from a oyapock. Just my two cents but I'd say Oyapock if there is any white at all. How old are these froglets any idea?


Based on the size of them I would be willing to guess about 10 months old. Like I said in the original post that pic is of the most abnormal one. The other two have little to no yellow in their pattern.


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## Tony

New River maybe? It looks very similar to my New River froglets, here is one:


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## hpglow

JoshK said:


> I would agree, that looks nothing like any Patricia I have ever seen. *
> 
> If *it were a cross, I would guess Oyapock and Cobalt. If it isn't, I would guess Oyapok.
> If it were me, I would put 100% effort into finding out where these frogs came from, and the sooner the better.


I went down the chain of people that these frogs came from. The owner of the mating pair says they were sold to them as "standard blue poision dart frogs." The pet store they purcased them is no longer in business. So that is where the research dead ended. If I realized this discussion was still going on I would have posted sooner, sorry.

They are getting more bold and come out more often, so I will get some better pics of the other two that don't look quite so odd.


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## hpglow

Definatly not a new river, once I post the pic of the other two. You will see there is no resemblance.


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## hpglow

Here is a pic I snapped of the 3 of them the other day. The one that is in the first post is on the far right. The other two that I have not gotten photos of until recently are on the left of the photo.


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## Woodsman

They still look very Oyapocky to me. Oyapocks can vary widely in the amount of white lines and the width of the lines (males tend to have more white than females), but they are black and white bodied with cobalt blue legs. They are also a smaller tinctorius, so males will be about 1 1/2" and females about 1 3/4" at maturity.

Good luck with them, Richard.


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## james67

doesnt look like any oyapock ive ever seen, and the pattern on the sides looks all wrong.

james


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## nathan

Have you considered trying to get a pic of the parents and posting them on here? That might help . . . .


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## Taron

looks like a cobalt to me but we need a picture of the legs


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## hpglow

nathan said:


> Have you considered trying to get a pic of the parents and posting them on here? That might help . . . .


No, I have never seen the parents. So actually if I could just get a look at them I would have a much better idea. Next time I make a trip out of town to where these originated from I will see if I can arrange a meeting. It is about a 200mi round trip, but I make it for work now and then.


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## laylow

Every picture I've seen says oyapock. It is easier to tell in person maybe you can get help from other local froggers? I dont see ANY yellow in those pictures so my final answer oyapock not cobalt. . .


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## james67

Tony said:


> New River maybe? It looks very similar to my New River froglets, here is one:


the sides do NOT look like an oyapock (at least none that ive seen)

heres a few pics of an oyapock (sourced from google) that show what im talking about

james


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## hpglow

laylow said:


> Every picture I've seen says oyapock. It is easier to tell in person maybe you can get help from other local froggers? I dont see ANY yellow in those pictures so my final answer oyapock not cobalt. . .


I don't really know any in the area. Plus I mostly deal with Thumbs, these guys were just a gift. Someone said "I know a guy that needs to get rid of some froglets."

I know a couple breeders in my area I will ask one to come over sometime and have a look-see.


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## Tony

james67 said:


> the sides do NOT look like an oyapock (at least none that ive seen)
> 
> heres a few pics of an oyapock (sourced from google) that show what im talking about
> 
> james


That is a New River from my collection that I posted as a comparison to his original shot, not the frog in question.


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## nathan

Maybe see if the guy that knows the guy who bred them can get you his contact info. Maybe instead of a 200 mi trip he can email you some pics of the parents. Plus Im sure he wouldnt mind figureing out what they were too . . .


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## james67

oops! i missed that (i cant believe i actually quoted it and missed that!)

well either way the sides are nearly identical to your pic and my post (IMO) still illustrates the problem. here is the original pic next to the same oyapock pics.



hpglow said:


>


whatever it is, our speculation, on what morph this is, certainly isnt good enough for breeding purposes. without an actual morph name/ locality from a reputable breeder or hobbyist, its really not worth debating IMO. if the OP can contact the breeder (and trust what they say) then good, if not then just enjoy them for what they are; unknown, and cull any offspring.

james


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## Dartfrogfreak

If you can get some better pics. That pic you posted of the 3 of them is starting to show some good markings.. but its not quite a close enough shot.

I agree the original pic looks like a cross. but not a cross of Cobalt x Azureus. I have seen this cross. The offspring tend to end up looking like True Sips.

From the pic of the 3 they are looking like they belong somewhere in the Sip/ new River complex...

Keep gettin pix and I dont youll get a real answer until they reach maturaty as those patterns and colors could change alot over the next year

Todd


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