# Besides PDFs, what could live in a viv?



## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

Hi,
Im currently working on my next viv set up, but not sure what to do put in there.

Ive done PDFs, Tree Frogs, and some toads.
I love making vivs but am not sure what to put in my next vivarium besides PDFs.
I am looking for something affordable and interesting!
I was thinking pygmy chameleons, but every website i look at seems to be sold out constantly 

Any ideas are welcome! Thanks


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Arachnids make great displays and there are just as many colors of them as there are frogs. Feeding is much easier as well. Other than that I would say some smaller aroreal colubrids.

Michael


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Arachnids make great displays and there are just as many colors of them as there are frogs. Feeding is much easier as well. Other than that I would say some smaller aroreal colubrids.
> 
> Michael


I should have mentioned earlier, snakes and spiders are my two bugagoos. They freak me out 
So anything besides spiders and snakes please 

Thanks for your post, though!


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## frogboy (Sep 25, 2010)

Mantellas or lizards.


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## chinoanoah (Mar 9, 2009)

poison beauties said:


> Arachnids make great displays and there are just as many colors of them as there are frogs. Feeding is much easier as well. Other than that I would say some smaller aroreal colubrids.
> 
> Michael


Gimme examples of these colors......!


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Other then the things already mentioned Day geckos, related species like Lygodactylus williamsi, several other species of geckos and also anoles are all good choices. Vampire crabs and some salamanders and newts are also possible, maybe even some large land snails if you can find them. I actually had real good luck with fire bellied newts in vivs even though that generally isn't the habitat associated with them. They were mostly terrestrial and grew huge, but you won't see them except at night or early morning usually. In a screen top or partial screen top viv HOLASPIS GUENTHERI may be an option. Think they like it a little drier then darts if I remember correctly. Some of the smaller southern or tropical musk/mud turtles may be options also. Larger turtles are doable in bigger enclosures.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Avicularia Minatrix, Avicularia Purpurea, Avicularia Versicolor, Brachypelma Boehmei, Grammostola Pulchra, Pamphobeteus Antinous, Poecilotheria Metallica, Pterinochilus Murinus are just a few flashy ones I have. Some like terrestrial vivs and others verts but they are all living vivs like we create for darts,

Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dwarf chameleons, small tree dragons, solomon eye lash frogs, reed frogs, and thats just for starter


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

frogboy said:


> Mantellas or lizards.


Mantellas seem cool! I will do some more research on them
Thanks


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Other then the things already mentioned Day geckos, related species like Lygodactylus williamsi, several other species of geckos and also anoles are all good choices. Vampire crabs and some salamanders and newts are also possible, maybe even some large land snails if you can find them. I actually had real good luck with fire bellied newts in vivs even though that generally isn't the habitat associated with them. They were mostly terrestrial and grew huge, but you won't see them except at night or early morning usually. In a screen top or partial screen top viv HOLASPIS GUENTHERI may be an option. Think they like it a little drier then darts if I remember correctly. Some of the smaller southern or tropical musk/mud turtles may be options also. Larger turtles are doable in bigger enclosures.


Thanks for the help!
That picture is really stunning, definitely something I will look into. 
Appreciate the help


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Avicularia Minatrix, Avicularia Purpurea, Avicularia Versicolor, Brachypelma Boehmei, Grammostola Pulchra, Pamphobeteus Antinous, Poecilotheria Metallica, Pterinochilus Murinus are just a few flashy ones I have. Some like terrestrial vivs and others verts but they are all living vivs like we create for darts,
> 
> Michael


I just googled some of those, the colors are amazing! Wow
Says someone who fears spiders.. lol


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> Avicularia Minatrix, Avicularia Purpurea, Avicularia Versicolor, Brachypelma Boehmei, Grammostola Pulchra, Pamphobeteus Antinous, Poecilotheria Metallica, Pterinochilus Murinus are just a few flashy ones I have. Some like terrestrial vivs and others verts but they are all living vivs like we create for darts,
> 
> Michael


I think a spider would be a waste of a viv. You literally can breed them in nothing but a deli cup with some dirt on the bottom. Not to mention many of the spiders you listed like to hide in their webs except for feeding.

Much better for a viv would be a diurnal lizard.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

From what I've seen on here, Vampire Crabs seem to fit the bill. Their viv build is the exact same as a PDF.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> dwarf chameleons, small tree dragons, solomon eye lash frogs, reed frogs, and thats just for starter


Those ideas are awesome. thanks for the help!!
the reed frogs are adorable


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## Pssh (Oct 23, 2010)

Flchams.com has Pygmy chameleons. Reptile depot as well. Firstchoicereptiles.com will have the cheapest ones that are still good quality. Flchams has really high quality little guys though. 

If it is big enough, some butterflies and/or moths are nice to keep in more ventilated vivs. Stick bugs and leaf bugs make for great showcase animals. Some exotic cockroaches would be cool, though many like to burrow.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

A praying mantis. Their are tons of species you can get, not just the average looking ones. I have a carolina and she did great. They're cheap (except for the exotic orchid mantids) and easy to feed.

Here are some:

































For more specific info and examples mantid forums is a good place to start.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> From what I've seen on here, Vampire Crabs seem to fit the bill. Their viv build is the exact same as a PDF.


Another cool idea! thanks!!



rollinkansas said:


> I think a spider would be a waste of a viv. You literally can breed them in nothing but a deli cup with some dirt on the bottom. Not to mention many of the spiders you listed like to hide in their webs except for feeding.
> 
> Much better for a viv would be a diurnal lizard.


Could you possibly give examples of certain lizards that do well in vivs? Thanks



Pssh said:


> Flchams.com has Pygmy chameleons. Reptile depot as well. Firstchoicereptiles.com will have the cheapest ones that are still good quality. Flchams has really high quality little guys though.
> 
> If it is big enough, some butterflies and/or moths are nice to keep in more ventilated vivs. Stick bugs and leaf bugs make for great showcase animals. Some exotic cockroaches would be cool, though many like to burrow.


The problem with Flchams.com is that their pygmies are Wild Caught (WC). The same problem is with Firstchoicereptiles.com. 
I also believe that Reptile Depot has closed, not sure about that though.

If anyone knows of a website that sells CAPTIVE adult pygmies, please let me know!!

Thanks for all of the responses so far


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> A praying mantis. Their are tons of species you can get, not just the average looking ones. I have a carolina and she did great. They're cheap (except for the exotic orchid mantids) and easy to feed.
> 
> Here are some:
> 
> ...


Those pictures are stunning!
If you have any photos, we would sure love to see yours!
thanks for the idea


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Those ideas are awesome. thanks for the help!!
> the reed frogs are adorable


As I mentioned to some one else if you want an eye popping geographicly correct display consider setting a large semi-aquatic tank with emergent vegetation coming out of the water. Butterfly fish and african leaf fish in the water section and a group of reed frogs and possibly blue-tail tree lizards and or lygodactylus on the land. It's a bit of work to set up but the end result will knock you socks of.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

Does anyone know if buying Wild Caught pygmies is a bad idea?
Thanks in advance


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

rollinkansas said:


> I think a spider would be a waste of a viv. You literally can breed them in nothing but a deli cup with some dirt on the bottom. Not to mention many of the spiders you listed like to hide in their webs except for feeding.
> 
> Much better for a viv would be a diurnal lizard.


A waste of a viv? Where did your desire to create a healthy ecosystem for whatever critter go? If you think all of these will breed in a deli cup you are very wrong. Some of these arachnids are tricky and worth as much or more than most Dart Frogs. As for seeing them regularly do you mean like darts because in a well planted vivs some people almost never see their frogs. Many arachnids like frogs and other critters are nocturnal and can be seen plenty at the right time. Besides I and many set up a viv as an all around display, the critters inside are just a part of it.

Michael


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

dendroman1234 said:


> Could you possibly give examples of certain lizards that do well in vivs? Thanks


Gonatodes sp, Anolis sp, Phelsuma sp, Lygodactylus sp, Sphaerodactylus sp to start.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> As I mentioned to some one else if you want an eye popping geographicly correct display consider setting a large semi-aquatic tank with emergent vegetation coming out of the water. Butterfly fish and african leaf fish in the water section and a group of reed frogs and possibly blue-tail tree lizards and or lygodactylus on the land. It's a bit of work to set up but the end result will knock you socks of.


I have seen some INCREDIBLE vivs done with leaf fish and other sorts of fish combined with frogs of all sorts.
Are you sure that the leaf fish won't interact with the frogs at all? id hate to see my frogs half eaten by leaf fish.. lol


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Does anyone know if buying Wild Caught pygmies is a bad idea?
> Thanks in advance


Many die due to improper care. I have taken on quite a few wc chams that did well. Reducing stress is probably the most important thing for them. You should also ask whether or not they have been tested or treated for parasites.

Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Does anyone know if buying Wild Caught pygmies is a bad idea?
> Thanks in advance


Wc Pygmies will do fine, but they have a naturally short life span figure 3-5 years on average. You can keep them just like darts. Just be careful since they will drown in even relatively shallow water areas.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

rollinkansas said:


> Gonatodes sp, Anolis sp, Phelsuma sp, Lygodactylus sp, Sphaerodactylus sp to start.


Thanks for the specific names!
I am going to start searching them up.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> I have seen some INCREDIBLE vivs done with leaf fish and other sorts of fish combined with frogs of all sorts.
> Are you sure that the leaf fish won't interact with the frogs at all? id hate to see my frogs half eaten by leaf fish.. lol


I have two leaf fish in a 18"by18"by18" Exoterra now with a bunch of reeds and have never seen a negative interaction in the almost 2 and 1/2 years that the tank has been set up. On the other hand if the reeds breed and you let the eggs hatch naturally the tads would certainly be fair game.


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> A waste of a viv? Where did your desire to create a healthy ecosystem for whatever critter go? If you think all of these will breed in a deli cup you are very wrong. Some of these arachnids are tricky and worth as much or more than most Dart Frogs. As for seeing them regularly do you mean like darts because in a well planted vivs some people almost never see their frogs. Many arachnids like frogs and other critters are nocturnal and can be seen plenty at the right time. Besides I and many set up a viv as an all around display, the critters inside are just a part of it.
> 
> Michael


I can go 5 minutes away to my friends house who has bred every spider you listed and much much more...not to mention the first eggsac in the US from Monocentropus balfouri, and the only person in the US to successfully breed Theraphosa blondi (just published an article about it for the ATS I believe). Every single species is kept in the exact same way...with the only difference being some containers are taller than others. 

Do I think they can be fascinating to keep? Yes, I do, but not in a planted vivarium type setting. For that, I do believe there are much better candidates. Spiders are great in their own way, but a nicely planted tank, to me, would be going to waste for an animal thats going to hide in its web 80% of the time.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Many die due to improper care. I have taken on quite a few wc chams that did well. Reducing stress is probably the most important thing for them. You should also ask whether or not they have been tested or treated for parasites.
> 
> Michael





mantisdragon91 said:


> Wc Pygmies will do fine, but they have a naturally short life span figure 3-5 years on average. You can keep them just like darts. Just be careful since they will drown in even relatively shallow water areas.


Thanks for both of your replies.

I have read numerous times on different sites about debates between wether or not pygmy chameleons need UVB lighting. Now the viv I currently have set up for them had a glass lid, which means that the UVB rays will not go through. 

I chose the glass lid for the sake of keeping the tank more moist and for the sake of the plants, inhabitants, etc. 
I was thinking about upgrading the tank before I put anything living (besides plants, springtails, etc)
Should i get a screen top to get the UVB rays?

I am worried that the amount of air flow will be too much for the viv, and it will dry out.
I want to do this right the first time, being that WC pygmies are usually harder the keep happy.

Thanks!


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I have two leaf fish in a 18"by18"by18" Exoterra now with a bunch of reeds and have never seen a negative interaction in the almost 2 and 1/2 years that the tank has been set up. On the other hand if the reeds breed and you let the eggs hatch naturally the tads would certainly be fair game.


Is your Exo on the forums? I would love to see some pictures!

What about keeping leaf fish with PDF or some tree frogs?

Thanks again for your help


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Thanks for both of your replies.
> 
> I have read numerous times on different sites about debates between wether or not pygmy chameleons need UVB lighting. Now the viv I currently have set up for them had a glass lid, which means that the UVB rays will not go through.
> 
> ...


absolutely not pigmy's will usually flee from very bright light. They prefer shady, damp areas with a heavy leaf ground cover and dense plantings they can climb among


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Is your Exo on the forums? I would love to see some pictures!
> 
> What about keeping leaf fish with PDF or some tree frogs?
> 
> Thanks again for your help


Can be done but unless you have a ton of experience I would highly recomend against mixing animals from diffrent geographic areas together for fear of introducin against them to diseases that they would not naturally be exposed to and thus have no immunity to. You can substitute big eye tre frog(leptodactylus) for the reeds just don't mix the two or the reed will get eaten. 

I dont own a camera but the next time I have friends over I'll try to get some pics taken of the tank to give you some ideas.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I have two leaf fish in a 18"by18"by18" Exoterra now with a bunch of reeds and have never seen a negative interaction in the almost 2 and 1/2 years that the tank has been set up. On the other hand if the reeds breed and you let the eggs hatch naturally the tads would certainly be fair game.





mantisdragon91 said:


> absolutely not pigmy's will usually flee from very bright light. They prefer shady, damp areas with a heavy leaf ground cover and dense plantings they can climb among


The viv i have set up for them currently is a 10 gallon VERTICAL tank thats got tons of plants up and down the walls and bottom. I've got leaf litter, branches, and all sorts of stuff. I feel like I can do an even better job, if I upgrade the tank to a larger size. 

So bottom line, they do not need to use UVB lighting?

I just worry if i spend my money and time into a better viv, and then the pygmies I get that are WC are not in good shape. I guess i can always move some of my PDF to the viv if all goes wrong. 

Anything else i should know? ive done a good amount of research on these guys.

I've just always been worried about WC chams.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Can be done but unless you have a ton of experience I would highly recomend against mixing animals from diffrent geographic areas together for fear of introducin against them to diseases that they would not naturally be exposed to and thus have no immunity to. You can substitute big eye tre frog(leptodactylus) for the reeds just don't mix the two or the reed will get eaten.
> 
> I dont own a camera but the next time I have friends over I'll try to get some pics taken of the tank to give you some ideas.


Thanks a lot! sounds like an awesome set up!

So I should be fine mixing reeds and leaf fish together?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Thanks a lot! sounds like an awesome set up!
> 
> So I should be fine mixing reeds and leaf fish together?


As long as the reeds are close to adult size. If they are on the smaller size say 3/4" or less the leaf fish will try to pick them off.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> The viv i have set up for them currently is a 10 gallon VERTICAL tank thats got tons of plants up and down the walls and bottom. I've got leaf litter, branches, and all sorts of stuff. I feel like I can do an even better job, if I upgrade the tank to a larger size.
> 
> So bottom line, they do not need to use UVB lighting?
> 
> ...


The 10 would be fine for pigmies but lay it horizontaly. They need more ground area then vertical and will do fine with fairly subdued light(no uv needed) just keep in mind that they need bigger food then darts say 1/4 to 3/8" crickets. Also provide a ton of leaf litter and they will even lay eggs for you if you can get a pair or a trio.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

rollinkansas said:


> I can go 5 minutes away to my friends house who has bred every spider you listed and much much more...not to mention the first eggsac in the US from Monocentropus balfouri, and the only person in the US to successfully breed Theraphosa blondi (just published an article about it for the ATS I believe). Every single species is kept in the exact same way...with the only difference being some containers are taller than others.
> 
> Do I think they can be fascinating to keep? Yes, I do, but not in a planted vivarium type setting. For that, I do believe there are much better candidates. Spiders are great in their own way, but a nicely planted tank, to me, would be going to waste for an animal thats going to hide in its web 80% of the time.


So you don't believe there are any stress factors in keeping them in empty tubs or containers? Ive been keeping and breeding arachnids for more than ten years and I have seen the differences. Yes nice work on the Monocentropus balfouri and the bird eater but its likely just that not many have tried to breed them. Many dont want to risk a prized male or dont want 500 slings sitting around. They are no different than some of the thumbs and other darts or herps I kept over the years. Some just like to hide out and play in the night.

Michael


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> So you don't believe there are any stress factors in keeping them in empty tubs or containers? Ive been keeping and breeding arachnids for more than ten years and I have seen the differences. Yes nice work on the Monocentropus balfouri and the bird eater but its likely just that not many have tried to breed them. Many dont want to risk a prized male or dont want 500 slings sitting around. They are no different than some of the thumbs and other darts or herps I kept over the years. Some just like to hide out and play in the night.
> 
> Michael


To add to what Michael is saying you can keep many snakes in very sterile enclosures as well. But they will be much more active and show a much bigger range of behavior when kept in a more naturalistic setup.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> As long as the reeds are close to adult size. If they are on the smaller size say 3/4" or less the leaf fish will try to pick them off.


Will do. Thanks for the help!!



mantisdragon91 said:


> The 10 would be fine for pigmies but lay it horizontaly. They need more ground area then vertical and will do fine with fairly subdued light(no uv needed) just keep in mind that they need bigger food then darts say 1/4 to 3/8" crickets. Also provide a ton of leaf litter and they will even lay eggs for you if you can get a pair or a trio.


Im considering upgrading to a 30. Id keep the bottom heavily planted.
What do you do once they lay eggs? Do you remove them?

Also, are you sure that WC pygmies are known to do well in the right conditions?

Im bothering you so much about these because you said, if i recall correctly, that you've successfully kept WC pygmies multiple times.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Will do. Thanks for the help!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've always let the eggs hatch in the tank especially since if you have a nice deep layer of leaf litter you will never find the eggs anyway

WC Pigmies will do fine as long as you make sure that you get animals that are well hydrated( chameleons that are not well hydrated tend to have sunken eye sockets and the skin has a dry scratchy look to it)

Dehydration and warm temps are the big killers of pigmies not parasites. Just make sure to keep the temp at 78 or below and don't leave standing water in the tank, and as long as you get animals that are healthy to start with you should be fine. LLL reptile is ussually a decent source as well as Nick Mole at First Choice reptiles.


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## alex111683 (Sep 11, 2010)

Wallace Grover said:


> A praying mantis. Their are tons of species you can get, not just the average looking ones. I have a carolina and she did great. They're cheap (except for the exotic orchid mantids) and easy to feed.
> 
> Here are some:
> 
> ...


Those are very beautiful. But isnt their life span lass than half a year?


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I've always let the eggs hatch in the tank especially since if you have a nice deep layer of leaf litter you will never find the eggs anyway
> 
> WC Pigmies will do fine as long as you make sure that you get animals that are well hydrated( chameleons that are not well hydrated tend to have sunken eye sockets and the skin has a dry scratchy look to it)
> 
> Dehydration and warm temps are the big killers of pigmies not parasites. Just make sure to keep the temp at 78 or below and don't leave standing water in the tank, and as long as you get animals that are healthy to start with you should be fine. LLL reptile is ussually a decent source as well as Nick Mole at First Choice reptiles.


Thanks for all of the info! Appreciate all the help.

Now with frogs I have never had a fear of over misting the vivs cause it only helps the frogs and plants.

I worry with drowning the pygmies. Should i not spray any mist at them directly? Should it not be AS moist as an average viv?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

alex111683 said:


> Those are very beautiful. But isnt their life span lass than half a year?


Depends on the species. Some of the tropical mantids aren't as tied to the seasons as our Carolina mantids are and thus can live quite a bit longer, but yes they are among the shortest lived species of terrarium animals commonly kept in the hobby.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Thanks for all of the info! Appreciate all the help.
> 
> Now with frogs I have never had a fear of over misting the vivs cause it only helps the frogs and plants.
> 
> I worry with drowning the pygmies. Should i not spray any mist at them directly? Should it not be AS moist as an average viv?


Shoot for an ambient humidity of 70-85% you can certainly mist them and they will enjoy it, but they seem to be tragicly unequiped to deal with standing water. Keep in mind I am basing this on my experiences and the losses I suffered when keepig them with even a shallow water feature. Other keepers may have a diffrent experience with them.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Here's my Herbert on the front of her viv...


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Shoot for an ambient humidity of 70-85% you can certainly mist them and they will enjoy it, but they seem to be tragicly unequiped to deal with standing water. Keep in mind I am basing this on my experiences and the losses I suffered when keepig them with even a shallow water feature. Other keepers may have a diffrent experience with them.


Thanks for the clarification on that. 
I have to break it to you, but i googled Nick Mole and found multiple threads on different forums saying "STAY AWAY FROM NICK MOLE"

Lol, sorry to have to share that. Also, LLL reptiles did not have any pygmies. 

Do you have any experience with any of these sites?
Bearded Pygmy Chameleon [Rieppeleon brevicaudatus]
Pygmy Leaf Chameleons
Pygmy Leaf Chameleons for sale: Pygmy Chameleon Breeders of various types of pygmy chameleons for sale at FL Chams. Dwarf Chameleons for sale. Leaf Chameleons and Stumptail Chameleons for sale.
Bearded Pygmy Chameleon For Sale Online, Buy Now With UPS Overnight Shipping

Thanks in advance!


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

dendroman1234 said:


> Thanks for the clarification on that.
> I have to break it to you, but i googled Nick Mole and found multiple threads on different forums saying "STAY AWAY FROM NICK MOLE"
> 
> Lol, sorry to have to share that. Also, LLL reptiles did not have any pygmies.
> ...


Sorry about that I have dealt with Nick for years and know he won't screw me, but I forgot that he can be scetchy at times with people he doesn't know. Try FL Chameleons or Mark Lucas( He cherry picks Strictly Reptiles imports but he knows what he is doing and is ethical) I think he goes by Herps Etc on Kingsnake.


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Sorry about that I have dealt with Nick for years and know he won't screw me, but I forgot that he can be scetchy at times with people he doesn't know. Try FL Chameleons or Mark Lucas( He cherry picks Strictly Reptiles imports but he knows what he is doing and is ethical) I think he goes by Herps Etc on Kingsnake.


Thanks a bunch, ill check him out.
Appreciate all the info too!!


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> So you don't believe there are any stress factors in keeping them in empty tubs or containers? Ive been keeping and breeding arachnids for more than ten years and I have seen the differences. Yes nice work on the Monocentropus balfouri and the bird eater but its likely just that not many have tried to breed them. Many dont want to risk a prized male or dont want 500 slings sitting around. They are no different than some of the thumbs and other darts or herps I kept over the years. Some just like to hide out and play in the night.
> 
> Michael


I do agree with your and mantisdragons point of view. My only qualm was with this sentence:

"If you think all of these will breed in a deli cup you are very wrong."

I think the list of species he has successfully kept and bred speaks for itself, spartan cages, or not.

And who is to say what behaviors are more naturalistic? I keep my phelsuma in tanks with about 1/8" dirt, a pot of sanservia and some pvc pipes. Every species breeds like a champ, some through multiple generations. Are these animals displaying less naturalistic, stressed out tendencies than those who keep them in 100 gallon fully planted tanks? Do the animals really care what they are perching on as long as they have food, warmth, cover?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

rollinkansas said:


> I do agree with your and mantisdragons point of view. My only qualm was with this sentence:
> 
> "If you think all of these will breed in a deli cup you are very wrong."
> 
> ...


I guess it really depends on the animal. Keep in mind many of the critters in our hobby are wc and imported in for sale. So yes I would say a more naturalistic viv is more beneficial. And I do know what your saying there are many that will breed in a cup but why not go the xtra mile after all you bought the critter because you like it. I do know many who have ad issues though trying to breed them the way you describe. Most were Avs and Poecis.

Michael


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> As I mentioned to some one else if you want an eye popping geographicly correct display consider setting a large semi-aquatic tank with emergent vegetation coming out of the water. Butterfly fish and african leaf fish in the water section and a group of reed frogs and possibly blue-tail tree lizards and or lygodactylus on the land. It's a bit of work to set up but the end result will knock you socks of.


so you can combined those frogs and lizards together??


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

myersboy6 said:


> so you can combined those frogs and lizards together??


Many would say not a good idea, though many would also argue it would be fine if you had a lot of experience keeping various animals and especially with each animal being considered for mixing individually and the tank was properly constructed to suit each's needs. Some would think it is ok to just throw them all in there with minimal experience or knowledge and hope it all works out. The majority of us don't hold much respect for that last group


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

myersboy6 said:


> so you can combined those frogs and lizards together??


Without a good amount of A) experience, B) know-how, and C) careful planning, you'd be asking for trouble.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

myersboy6 said:


> so you can combined those frogs and lizards together??


You can but you would have to keep a careful attention to providing the right mx of terrain and making sure one group doesn't monopolize the food supply. Reeds like leaves they can sleep on while sunning or reedy type plants that emerge from the water(hence the common name). Blue tail gliders and Lygodactylus like thin tree branches to perch on and use as look out for food/mates/predators and the Blue tail tree lizards like cork bark or large pieces of wood with decaying bark that they can hide in to avoid potential or percieved predators( Blue tails tend to be very flighty and nervous and will stress heavily if this is not provided) The reason the combination works well is that despite occupying the same strata within a tank(the upper reaches) Reeds are nocturnal while lygos and blue tail gliders are diurinal and thus can share the same space without conflict.


*Sorry guys rather than state blindly that it can't shouldn't be tried I'd rather explain how and why it can be be and what are the pitfalls to be watched for. Our Hobby doesn't grow if we just tell people not to do things. Unless you have attempted it yourself you are simply not qualified to advise others. Sorry in advance if I ruffle any feathers.*


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## sgvreptiles (Jan 26, 2009)

I would say Phelsumas or anolis. They have very bright colors(most species, some are dull) active all day long. Some are more shy then others. But over all are a very fun genus to keep. Its been my main focus since 06 is to be working with Phelsumas. And just look at these colors








They are the dart frog of the gecko world!


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## dendroman1234 (Dec 4, 2010)

sgvreptiles said:


> I would say Phelsumas or anolis. They have very bright colors(most species, some are dull) active all day long. Some are more shy then others. But over all are a very fun genus to keep. Its been my main focus since 06 is to be working with Phelsumas. And just look at these colors
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats a great looking gecko!
thanks for the response


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## myersboy6 (Aug 23, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> You can but you would have to keep a careful attention to providing the right mx of terrain and making sure one group doesn't monopolize the food supply. Reeds like leaves they can sleep on while sunning or reedy type plants that emerge from the water(hence the common name). Blue tail gliders and Lygodactylus like thin tree branches to perch on and use as look out for food/mates/predators and the Blue tail tree lizards like cork bark or large pieces of wood with decaying bark that they can hide in to avoid potential or percieved predators( Blue tails tend to be very flighty and nervous and will stress heavily if this is not provided) The reason the combination works well is that despite occupying the same strata within a tank(the upper reaches) Reeds are nocturnal while lygos and blue tail gliders are diurinal and thus can share the same space without conflict.
> 
> 
> *Sorry guys rather than state blindly that it can't shouldn't be tried I'd rather explain how and why it can be be and what are the pitfalls to be watched for. Our Hobby doesn't grow if we just tell people not to do things. Unless you have attempted it yourself you are simply not qualified to advise others. Sorry in advance if I ruffle any feathers.*



thanks for info! I not going to try this anytime soon and i may never but If i ever do get a giant tank it would be something i would really like to try. i want some reed frogs they are soo cool!


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

myersboy6 said:


> thanks for info! I not going to try this anytime soon and i may never but If i ever do get a giant tank it would be something i would really like to try. i want some reed frogs they are soo cool!


Bottom line is simple. Research whatever you are looking at keeping, make sure that there is no possibility of predation or territorial aggression, and then observe at least 5-10 minutes a day for the first 6 months are more to make sure that none of the animals are getting suppressed or outcompteted for food then others.

Even if the combination works initially don't get complacent. Things change and you have to be prepared to separate animals if the are no longer compatible(for instance during breeding season) also keep in mind that if you are keeping pairs or breeding groups there is always the possibility of predation within the tank on any potential offspring.


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