# Cheap fruit fly culture media?



## Spuddy

Ok so I've just bought everything I need to start producing my own cultures, except the media. 

There seems to be many different medias available to purchase or produce yourself. Im looking to produce my own for the least amount of money possible. 

Does anyone have a go-to cheap recipe?


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## Serafim

How many cultures do you need to make per week? 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/58072-best-homemade-ff-media.html


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## Serafim

I use the recipe Julio recommends with a slight change and it produces tons of flies


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## serial hobbiest

*Maggot Chow dry mix recipe*
6 cups potato flakes
1/2 cup nutritional yeast (health food stores)
2 tablespoons spirulina (health food stores)
4 teaspoons cinnamon (controls mold)

*To make a 1 quart culture*
1/2 cup Maggot Chow
1/4 cup white vinegar (controls mold)
Enough boiling water to mix this into a cookie dough like consistency

Enjoy!

The spirulina is expensive stuff, and honestly not even necessary, but a little goes a long way. I only use it because I'm in the camp that believes the maggots will inevitably eat it, thereby supercharging them with nutrients, ensuring strong development in the pupa stage, and consequently higher yields, and maybe even more nutritious flies. I think this is purely speculative, however. Use it or not at your discretion.

Some people might also sprinkle a little active yeast over the surface of the media after it has been mixed and allowed to cool, as an further measure to control mold, which makes sense, as a healthy dose of active yeast will rapidly spread across the medium effectively locking it away from stray mold spores. I personally don't bother. Mold's not an issue for me, the recipe works great as-is. Flies themselves will inoculate the medium with wild yeasts anyhow, it just takes a few days to spread and grow.


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## serial hobbiest

I should note that nutritional yeast is simply dead brewer's yeast. In the link Serafim provided, I see people complaining of the smell of the cultures when using _active_ brewer's yeast. I also see people adding sugar, or fruit... 

Fermentation is not the goal here, so why add sugar? Brewer's yeast is an aggressive multiplier and fermenter. It's also important to note that fermentation is an anaerobic process. If this occurs, you are depriving the maggots of oxygen and producing alcohol. So how do we address this? By using dead brewer's yeast only, and enough of it.

Wild yeasts (Brettanomyces sp.) reproduce and ferment much more slowly than brewer's yeast, and happen to be what wild fruit flies would be primarily feeding on. They're what attacks the skins of ripe fruit. Unlike brewer's yeast, they are capable of breaking down starches into sugars, so there is no need for sugar or fruit in your cultures for the propagation of wild yeasts (which is not even a concern anyhow thanks to all the nutritional yeast in the mix).


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## Spaff

6 parts instant potatoes
2 parts nutritional yeast
1 part powdered sugar 

When making individual cultures, mix 1/3 cup above with 1/4 cup vinegar and approximately 1/4 cup hot water. Sprinkle a touch of cinnamon on the top and mix thoroughly. 

I've been using this method for almost 7 years and my frogs don't go hungry.


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## Serafim

serial hobbiest said:


> I should note that nutritional yeast is simply dead brewer's yeast. In the link Serafim provided, I see people complaining of the smell of the cultures when using _active_ brewer's yeast. I also see people adding sugar, or fruit...
> 
> Fermentation is not the goal here, so why add sugar? Brewer's yeast is an aggressive multiplier and fermenter. It's also important to note that fermentation is an anaerobic process. If this occurs, you are depriving the maggots of oxygen and producing alcohol. So how do we address this? By using dead brewer's yeast only, and enough of it.
> 
> Wild yeasts (Brettanomyces sp.) reproduce and ferment much more slowly than brewer's yeast, and happen to be what wild fruit flies would be primarily feeding on. They're what attacks the skins of ripe fruit. Unlike brewer's yeast, they are capable of breaking down starches into sugars, so there is no need for sugar or fruit in your cultures for the propagation of wild yeasts (which is not even a concern anyhow thanks to all the nutritional yeast in the mix).


I may try a small batch without the sugar. the brewers yeast does produce an aroma of beer but I dont mind it and its a cheap recipe that has worked. Always open to learning though.


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## Ed

The above media recipes have some potential deficiencies... 

see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/180770-fly-media.html#post1950330

some comments 

Ed


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## pa.walt

why do people use boiling water. i use room temp water. i know a few people who just use room temp water.


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## serial hobbiest

pa.walt said:


> why do people use boiling water. i use room temp water. i know a few people who just use room temp water.


I can't speak for everyone, but for me it makes sense because the instant potatoes will hydrate almost instantly, allowing me to mix to the thickness I'm looking for. I've never tried cool water, though.


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## S2G

There's so many recipes and recipe threads out there it's ridiculous. I like repashy, but I hate paying for shipping that equals/ exceeds the price of what I'm buying.

6 cups of potato flakes
2 cups of brewers yeast
1 cup of powder sugar
2 table spoons of cinnamon

50/50 mix hot water/vinegar
Sprinkle active bakers yeast on top

I like parchment paper instead of excelsior/coffee filters


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## serial hobbiest

Ed said:


> The above media recipes have some potential deficiencies...
> 
> see for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/180770-fly-media.html#post1950330
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


That thread was a good read, Ed, thanks. 

Re a quote of yours in that thread, "After the issues with frogs and beta carotene came out, I substituted astaxanthin for the spirulina and had good results with it including deepening of red and orange colors."

Would you recommend I do the same in my home made mix posted above?
Perhaps the addition of a few notable other carotenoids would also benefit?
Canthaxanthin? Beta carotene? If were to collect these from the pharmacy, have you any idea how much I should add to my dry mix recipe? A few tablets of each, crushed, or something?


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## carola1155

S2G said:


> There's so many recipes and recipe threads out there it's ridiculous. I like repashy, but I hate paying for shipping that equals/ exceeds the price of what I'm buying.


derailing a bit... but FWIW you can get free shipping from Dr. Fosters and Smith pretty easily. I think they recently lowered the minimum order size too, because I usually would just order 2 containers to get the minimum... it looks like now it would only take 1.


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## Spuddy

Thanks guys for all the replies, apologies also in the time it has taken for me to return to this thread. With regards to how many cultures I need, I presume only one? 

I currently only have two juvenile Leucomelas. I have some 32oz deli cups, should I create one culture a week or every fortnight? 


I'll have to have a lookout for potato flakes although personally I don't think I've ever seen them for sale in shops over here in the UK. Never heard of them.


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## S2G

carola1155 said:


> derailing a bit... but FWIW you can get free shipping from Dr. Fosters and Smith pretty easily. I think they recently lowered the minimum order size too, because I usually would just order 2 containers to get the minimum... it looks like now it would only take 1.


That is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't know they carried it.


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## Bengt

Spuddy said:


> I'll have to have a lookout for potato flakes although personally I don't think I've ever seen them for sale in shops over here in the UK. Never heard of them.




I use Instant Mashed potatoes instead. I think it's the same?


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## serial hobbiest

Spuddy said:


> I'll have to have a lookout for potato flakes although personally I don't think I've ever seen them for sale in shops over here in the UK. Never heard of them.


Instant mashed potatoes is the same thing. Just be sure that what you're buying is pure, 100% potato, and not any of the buttery, or seasoned varieties. In the UK, you have Smash instant potatoes for example.


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## Spuddy

serial hobbiest said:


> Instant mashed potatoes is the same thing. Just be sure that what you're buying is pure, 100% potato, and not any of the buttery, or seasoned varieties. In the UK, you have Smash instant potatoes for example.



Ahhh yes I know of that stuff. Thanks


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## Pumilo

Just a thought. Is the cheapest fly culture media, really the one that costs less right now?
One could argue that it may instead be the one that is best amended, with the best carotenoid profile in the hobby. You know, the one that keeps your frogs the healthiest, and allows them to live the longest.

I made my own for years, but did eventually switch. If I have to say what brand I eventually switched to, then I probably haven't talked about vitamins, supplementation, rotation and storage, and deficiencies and how to start correcting them, enough over the years.


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## Ed

serial hobbiest said:


> Would you recommend I do the same in my home made mix posted above?
> Perhaps the addition of a few notable other carotenoids would also benefit?
> Canthaxanthin? Beta carotene? If were to collect these from the pharmacy, have you any idea how much I should add to my dry mix recipe? A few tablets of each, crushed, or something?


at that point you might want to just use Repashy as the your going to end up wasting a lot of ingredients as they are going to go rancid over time so your going to be buying small volumes that have to then be stored. There are (thinking off the cuff) 6 carotenoids commonly found in amphibians and the Repashy product has all of them in the mix. 

As a incomplete modification, you could just use a good source of astaxanthin, canthaxanthin along with spirulina... but your still going to be short a couple of the carotenoids. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

Pumilo said:


> I made my own for years, but did eventually switch. If I have to say what brand I eventually switched to, then I probably haven't talked about vitamins, supplementation, rotation and storage, and deficiencies and how to start correcting them, enough over the years.


Pffftt.... your a late attendee to that party... 

some comments 

Ed


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## S2G

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ptive_Strawberry_Poison_Frogs_Oophaga_Pumilio

I had the pdf of this and thought I'd share a link


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## Serafim

Is it better to use a media that is fine and powdery or does this not make a difference? Did not see much mention with all the recipes.


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## Ed

Serafim said:


> Is it better to use a media that is fine and powdery or does this not make a difference? Did not see much mention with all the recipes.


It doesn't really matter as long as the ingredients are evenly distributed. 

some comments 

Ed


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## serial hobbiest

Serafim said:


> I may try a small batch without the sugar. the brewers yeast does produce an aroma of beer but I dont mind it and its a cheap recipe that has worked. Always open to learning though.


Yeah, okay... I take it back...
I'd never want to give anyone bad advice, so I gotta say I'll be modifying my recipe. Better have a read of this thread I started:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/322106-inconsistent-results-my-hydei-cultures.html


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## Serafim

No worries I have a few sugar free cultures going and they are booming as well.


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## Serafim

after reading the other thread I will probably go back to what I was using. Its cheap and it works. I figure all the more experienced froggers have done the trial and error and it works for them..


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## serial hobbiest

Serafim said:


> after reading the other thread I will probably go back to what I was using. Its cheap and it works. I figure all the more experienced froggers have done the trial and error and it works for them..


... and the MOST experienced froggers have switched to Rapashy Superfly. I'm giving up on "cheap." But in my searches today, looking for ways to enrich the flies with carotenoids, I found this, and it may be of interest to you:

www.rzlab.pitt.edu/Publications/Dugas-et-al-2013.pdf

It includes a recipe like the one you use but with 3 more ingredients to supply carotenoids, and compares the reproductive capability of O. pumilio which were fed flies from that media, with those who were fed flies without the supplementation. The results have gotta make you think twice. If the frogs on the basic fly are so nutrient deficient that they can hardly breed, you have to wonder what other health issues they may have, right? The extra ingredients are in such small amounts, it won't raise your cost significantly, provided you can source them. If I can find them, I may have a go with that recipe, but in the meantime, I'm ordering my Repashy.


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## Ed

serial hobbiest said:


> www.rzlab.pitt.edu/Publications/Dugas-et-al-2013.pdf


A friend of mine is the second author on that paper (he actually used to be a frogger as well). 

The thing to keep in mind is that carotenoids can go rancid so if you doing it yourself, you need to be able to store the carotenoids to reduce this problem and turn them over fairly regularly as well. It was this problem that in no small part led me to switching over to the Repashy products as sourcing them and making it cost effective was a pain in the neck. Now I just add astaxanthin to the dusting supplements and feed spirulina as part of the diet to my roaches and crickets. 

some comments 

Ed


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## serial hobbiest

Ed said:


> A friend of mine is the second author on that paper (he actually used to be a frogger as well).
> 
> The thing to keep in mind is that carotenoids can go rancid so if you doing it yourself, you need to be able to store the carotenoids to reduce this problem and turn them over fairly regularly as well. It was this problem that in no small part led me to switching over to the Repashy products as sourcing them and making it cost effective was a pain in the neck. Now I just add astaxanthin to the dusting supplements and feed spirulina as part of the diet to my roaches and crickets.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


 Surely storing your media supplements in the freezer would preserve them, no?

What form of astaxanthin are you adding to the dusting supplements (and why)? 

Is a weekly vitamin A dusting still recommended even when your flies are grown on Superfly, and vitamin A is a part of whichever vitamin supplement you use anyhow (ie Dendrocare, as in my case)? 

My Superfly is ordered, and my Dendrocare dust is in the fridge. Do I really need anything else?


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## Serafim

serial hobbiest said:


> ... and the MOST experienced froggers have switched to Rapashy Superfly. I'm giving up on "cheap." But in my searches today, looking for ways to enrich the flies with carotenoids, I found this, and it may be of interest to you:


 Cheap was probably the wrong term. Its cost effective for me.I know several very experienced froggers who make their own and even sell media. I think in the end it comes down to preference.


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## Ed

serial hobbiest said:


> Surely storing your media supplements in the freezer would preserve them, no?


You would need to identify a source that is willing to offer standardized carotenoid levels of the material and turns over the stock on a regular basis to enable you to have the highest levels at the start of making your media. People often forget that carotenoids are efficient antioxidants and as such are prone to reacting with oxygen which is why they tend to go rancid. 

Secondly, storage in a regular home freezer doesn't really keep the material as cold as you need for the best reduction of the carotenoid loss, you really should be considering something at around -18 C(-0.4 F) or lower. In addition, the freeze thaw cycles of home freezers that are used to reduce or eliminate frost buildup affect the stability of the carotenoids and the loss of the carotenoids can be surprisingly quick under some of those kinds of conditions. So you still end up having to turn over your carotenoids fairly frequently to ensure that you have enough to meet the metabolic needs of the animals much less to ensure that they have enough for pigmentation. 

Çinar, Inci. "Carotenoid pigment loss of freeze-dried plant samples under different storage conditions." LWT-Food Science and Technology 37.3 (2004): 363-367.
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...conditions/links/0deec52f8ceb8a28d1000000.pdf

You really need to store them under reduced oxygen conditions (as well as reduce moisture) to slow the oxidation. 



serial hobbiest said:


> What form of astaxanthin are you adding to the dusting supplements (and why)?


I use a paracoccus powder with a 2.1% astaxanthin content but I've been tempted to use the artificial astaxanthins as that is 10% astaxanthin. 

I've found that in frogs that are deficient in red colors due to prior diets and breeding and have lost color to the point that they are a pale orange, a greater level of astaxanthin is needed to return the frogs to color approximating the wild populations. I'll attach a couple of pictures. 



serial hobbiest said:


> Is a weekly vitamin A dusting still recommended even when your flies are grown on Superfly, and vitamin A is a part of whichever vitamin supplement you use anyhow (ie Dendrocare, as in my case)?


It depends, based on anecodotal reporting, frogs that were showing symptoms of a vitamin A deficiency (like early egg death, swollen tadpoles in the egg, spindly leg) usage of the fruit fly media and a dusting supplement that already contains a preformed vitamin A (Repashy or Dendrocare), doesn't reduce the symptoms. I suspect it would if the reproduction is shut down for a number of months but most hobbyists either are unwilling or the conditions are so optimal for reproduction that it still occurs. This ensures that the frogs will not be able to store sufficient carotenoids or vitamin A. In those cases at least several months of supplementing an additional vitamin A source solves the issues. There haven't been many (or any) reports that the frogs redevelop symptoms on that rotation but some prefer to include the additional vitamin A once a month as "insurance". 

I should note that Dendrocare is deficient in other carotenoids which is why frogs on it don't result in deeper coloration over time. One of the reasons I stopped using it a long time ago... (the additional reasons are the time in transit from Europe and the risk of improper storage conditions during that time in transit). This induces a variable in the shelf life that I'd prefer to control by acquiring supplements closer to home and more direct. 



serial hobbiest said:


> My Superfly is ordered, and my Dendrocare dust is in the fridge. Do I really need anything else?


The answer to this is maybe... it depends a lot on what your looking to have happen with the frogs. Keep in mind that carotenoids in the fruit fly media may increase reproduction but there was no increase in intensity of color during the study. 

These two pictures are before and after pictures of the adult frogs, this is a pair I acquired back about 8 years ago.. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

If you can get a copy of this article it has some great information in it as well. 

Ogilvy, V., R. F. Preziosi, and A. L. Fidgett. "A brighter future for frogs? The influence of carotenoids on the health, development and reproductive success of the red‐eye tree frog." Animal Conservation 15.5 (2012): 480-488.

some comments 

Ed


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## serial hobbiest

Ed;2921210
The answer to this is maybe... it depends a lot on what your looking to have happen with the frogs. Keep in mind that carotenoids in the fruit fly media may increase reproduction but there was no increase in intensity of color during the study.
These two pictures are before and after pictures of the adult frogs said:


> Interesting stuff, Ed. I'm not looking to breed or anything, I just want healthy frogs (azureus).


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## S2G

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-do-you-dust-your-frogs-food-supplements.html

The juice is not worth the squeeze unless you have a bunch of frogs really. Ive made my own, but the cost was pretty close to respashy with I think 5-6 tanks going. The truth is they did great on both. I alternated between calc and vit. Hydei were a pain so i dropped them in favor of Turk gliders. Then i found out about bean beetles and cultured 4 of those. 

Azureus are super easy. Start with a quality animal. Culture some flies with repashy or other appropriate media use some excelsior or coffee filters. Pick a day of the week to make cultures and stay consistent. Dust in alternating fashion calc/vit (keep vit in freezer & chunk in 6 months). Keep your temps in 70-80F range and humidity 70-80% (keep below 90). Another overlooked aspect is a very healthy spring/iso population with several spare cultures. They will do great.

The media isn't life or death really unless you try some crazy concoction.
Potato flakes, brewers yeast, powdered sugar, cinnamon = around $17-18 for 3lbs items bought locally
Repashy = $23-25 for 3lbs and it has other helpful ingredients.

For 6 tanks that was a no brainer for me. Now if I had 30 tanks I probably would of made a different call as it would of been cheaper buying in bulk. Ive seen tons of healthy quality frogs raised off that recipe I listed. It's your call really


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## Ed

S2G said:


> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...-do-you-dust-your-frogs-food-supplements.html


I should note that a lot of that thread was predicated on the idea that the frogs could convert beta carotene to vitamin A efficiently. It has since become clear that this does not happen efficiently (or at all) in post metamorphic frogs so anything in that thread has to be considered with the advances of the last 10 years in mind. 

At this point in time, there isn't any reason to alternate between the vitamins and mineral supplements to deal with interactions and competitions between the vitamins. You can just use a quality all in one supplment. 



S2G said:


> (keep vit in freezer & chunk in 6 months). Keep your temps in 70-80F range and humidity 70-80% (keep below 90). Another overlooked aspect is a very healthy spring/iso population with several spare cultures. They will do great.


Do not freeze the supplements, if you freeze them you can damage the particulates and increase oxidation rates, refrigerate the bulk of the supplements. In addition, any supplements that are stored outside of the refrigerator should be stored in as low a humidity as possible so a low end point should not be recommended. As an upper endpoint that one is fine. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

serial hobbiest said:


> Interesting stuff, Ed. I'm not looking to breed or anything, I just want healthy frogs (azureus).


You can add your own carotenoids but if you want to stick with the dendrocare, then it might be cost effective to just use Superpig as a supplement with the dusting material. If you want to mix them you'll probably have to grind them to get a good stick to the flies. I use a mortar and pestle and do about two weeks worth at a time to minimize degradation (this is in addition to the Superfly). 

To some extent one of the things that drives me crazy is that the perception that carotenoids are mainly used for pigmentation in the frogs (often described as a color enhancer) but this is not the case as the carotenoids are used for vitamin A (just not beta carotene) synthesis, provisioning of the yolk, and as an antioxidant where they play important roles in a number of systems including the immune system. We can see that the pigmentation of the skin is the last area where the carotenoids make their appearance as those colors are not immediately replenished upon adding carotenoids to the diet..... (there is a similar perception problem with vitamin D3 ..) 

I should note that since blues are due to the reflection of light off of the crystalline iridophores, carotenoids aren't going to change the color of the azureus. 


some comments 

Ed


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## S2G

Ed said:


> I should note that a lot of that thread was predicated on the idea that the frogs could convert beta carotene to vitamin A efficiently. It has since become clear that this does not happen efficiently (or at all) in post metamorphic frogs so anything in that thread has to be considered with the advances of the last 10 years in mind.
> 
> At this point in time, there isn't any reason to alternate between the vitamins and mineral supplements to deal with interactions and competitions between the vitamins. You can just use a quality all in one supplment.
> 
> 
> 
> Do not freeze the supplements, if you freeze them you can damage the particulates and increase oxidation rates, refrigerate the bulk of the supplements. In addition, any supplements that are stored outside of the refrigerator should be stored in as low a humidity as possible so a low end point should not be recommended. As an upper endpoint that one is fine.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I actual switched to calcium plus but I wasn't sure if using it all the time was 100% right so I suggested something more standard issue. Sorry I meant fridge but predictive text changed it on me. Thanks for correcting that.

I appreciate you taking the time to post in this thread. I think you've answered every question I've ever had on media.


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## serial hobbiest

Ed said:


> ... but this is not the case as the carotenoids are used for vitamin A (just not beta carotene) synthesis, provisioning of the yolk, and as an antioxidant where they play important roles in a number of systems including the immune system.





Ed said:


> I should note that a lot of that thread was predicated on the idea that the frogs could convert beta carotene to vitamin A efficiently. It has since become clear that this does not happen efficiently (or at all) in post metamorphic frogs.


Oooooohhhhh!
So let me see if I got this... Tadpoles are capable of vitamin A synthesis, whereas adults are not? Weird.


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## Ed

serial hobbiest said:


> Oooooohhhhh!
> So let me see if I got this... Tadpoles are capable of vitamin A synthesis, whereas adults are not? Weird.


Not quite, I guess because I've discussed it so much.... 
Tadpoles on analysis (in a number of taxa) can convert beta carotene to vitamin A, (but they can also convert astaxanthin) but this ability is lost or greatly reduced on metamorphosis. The conversion occurs in the intestines which if you think about it, explains the loss at metamorphosis as there are significant changes to the digestive tract. 

There are other carotenoids that can be converted to vitamin A but at this moment, the studies documenting which ones do so in adult anurans (but a diet where the majority is beta carotene end up with deficiencies) haven't been conclusive but based on the forms of vitamin A found in the tissues it isn't astaxanthin (except in the eyes). 

some comments 

Ed


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## S2G

Repashy is on the right, homemade is on left. Very close to same amount of seeding flies. 3 wks old. 1/2 cup media. Same temps etc. No mites. Both were a mixture of first emerge and 2nd emerge. Boiling water

Homemade roughly $18(sourced cheap locally) with leftover sugar/yeast
8cups potato flake | 1 cup powdered sugar | 2/3 cup brwers yeast...sprinkle of cinnamon on top.

Repashy 3.3lb $24 - alot leftover

Ive had to stay on top of the really booming one to avoid a crowded crash. The other has plenty of flies don't get me wrong, but the repashy ones are more active along with being slightly bigger. Not a super controlled study, but I thought id post the 2 differences I see.


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## S2G

Scratch that. I have to find another way to post pics now. It shows 2 32oz deli containers. The one on the right has cases all the way to the top with flies out the a$$ trying to pry the lid off. The other is half that and they are more toward middle.


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## Ed

S2G said:


> Ive had to stay on top of the really booming one to avoid a crowded crash. The other has plenty of flies don't get me wrong, but the repashy ones are more active along with being slightly bigger. Not a super controlled study, but I thought id post the 2 differences I see.


If you have the genetic variation in the cultures, you shouldn't have to worry about a "crowded crash". That happens when there are a lot of selection for intolerance for conditions later in the cultures. 

some comments 

Ed


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## S2G

Ed said:


> If you have the genetic variation in the cultures, you shouldn't have to worry about a "crowded crash". That happens when there are a lot of selection for intolerance for conditions later in the cultures.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


I didn't know that. I thought avoiding overcrowded cultures was one of the rules of keeping ff's. Thanks for letting me know.


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## Ed

S2G said:


> I didn't know that. I thought avoiding overcrowded cultures was one of the rules of keeping ff's. Thanks for letting me know.


See http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/~mueller/pdf/JEvolBio00.pdf 

Borash, D. J., et al. "Density-dependent natural selection in Drosophila: correlations between feeding rate, development time and viability." Journal of Evolutionary Biology 13.2 (2000): 181-187. 

should be free access. I think the practice is left over from the time when people were selecting from the first emergence to start new cultures to try and out run the mites. This then led to the selection of the flies to be intolerant of culture conditions later in the cycle of cultures (the boom and the culture crashes). 

some comments 

Ed


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## S2G

Ed said:


> See http://darwin.bio.uci.edu/~mueller/pdf/JEvolBio00.pdf
> 
> Borash, D. J., et al. "Density-dependent natural selection in Drosophila: correlations between feeding rate, development time and viability." Journal of Evolutionary Biology 13.2 (2000): 181-187.
> 
> should be free access. I think the practice is left over from the time when people were selecting from the first emergence to start new cultures to try and out run the mites. This then led to the selection of the flies to be intolerant of culture conditions later in the cycle of cultures (the boom and the culture crashes).
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Interesting read. You didn't have to post it for me to believe you, but I'm glad you did. I think I'm going to start using 3 cultures at different stages to seed.

Out of curiosity would it be beneficial to add a higher percentage of a specific stage vs another (melanogaster)? Example: If you want to maximize production would you use a 70/30 split of first emergence vs later more tolerant? Just a general example and not trying to get that exact of course.


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## serial hobbiest

Ed said:


> . I think the practice is left over from the time when people were selecting from the first emergence to start new cultures to try and out run the mites. This then led to the selection of the flies to be intolerant of culture conditions later in the cycle of cultures (the boom and the culture crashes).
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


If been scratching my head a little over exactly how long does this first emergence last? When my hydei start to emerge, it seems to be a continual process, rather than "stages" of emergences. Specifically, what I'm trying to boil down is, how much time after I notice first emergers should I allow before using those flies to seed the next culture? If the culture is running on "schedule," that is, I have 1st emergers in 21 days, and then on day 23 or 24, I have a huge mass of flies. Is the best approach just to feed off these, then cull the majority of the rest, and then use flies for seeding when my swarm repopulates?



S2G said:


> Interesting read. You didn't have to post it for me to believe you, but I'm glad you did. I think I'm going to start using 3 cultures at different stages to seed.


Funny, I just did this yesterday. Two of those cultures I started the same day, but one was a week behind in development (the stronger one was made from flies during a population crash, just FYI...). [/QUOTE]



> Out of curiosity would it be beneficial to add a higher percentage of a specific stage vs another (melanogaster)? Example: If you want to maximize production would you use a 70/30 split of first emergence vs later more tolerant? Just a general example and not trying to get that exact of course.


I'm curious about this as well, but I'll hazard a guess and say no. I'm sure Ed will be along shortly to straighten us out. The first emergence is heavily skewed female like 90%ish, so by blending those with later flies, you'll still be creating a female majority, not that it's necessarily a bad thing, however if you seed a little heavy, and you have enough males to satisfy all the females, I think there is a risk of egg/ maggot overpopulation- something that occurred in one of my cultures (I think). I had one, tiny little emergence (before I noticed even a single pupa), but the media was completely churned over and thick with maggots which weren't growing. I started adding nutritional yeast each day for a few days, which got them growing, and finally started seeing pupae, when at that point, I stopped adding additional yeast. The pupae never developed/ emerged, so I trashed the whole thing.


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## Ed

S2G said:


> Interesting read. You didn't have to post it for me to believe you, but I'm glad you did. I think I'm going to start using 3 cultures at different stages to seed.
> 
> Out of curiosity would it be beneficial to add a higher percentage of a specific stage vs another (melanogaster)? Example: If you want to maximize production would you use a 70/30 split of first emergence vs later more tolerant? Just a general example and not trying to get that exact of course.


In my opinion, you should shoot for a random mixture as that way you can avoid selection more easily. I use several cultures of different ages and then seed the new cultures. 

If you go back and look at a lot of my posts, I tend to post the articles to show that I'm working from a real base as opposed to repeating dogma or personal opinion. Doing it in this way allows people (not necessarily the person I answered) to read the information for themselves and make their own decisions. I can avoid a lot of the attempts of ad hominem attacks that inevitably arise when dogma and/or opinion is challenged. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed

serial hobbiest said:


> If been scratching my head a little over exactly how long does this first emergence last? When my hydei start to emerge, it seems to be a continual process, rather than "stages" of emergences.


There is a gradation in tolerance and that tolerance is linked to the time in the larval stage as well as feeding efficiency. If you pulled and used all of the first 3-5 days of emergence, as opposed to the last 3-5 days of the emergences (if you want to do the study, you want to add females after they've been bred and then pull them out of the culture after 24 hours so all of the eggs have been laid in the same time frame) you would be shifting the culture to be less tolerant but develop more quickly, if you used just the last 3-5 days you would be shifting it towards a longer development time. When all of the flies aren't pulled from a culture, you get a continuum of egg depositions which makes the booms less obvious as it spreads them out further regardless of tolerance (this is why it is more apparent in melanogaster than hydei due to the differences in time of development). 




serial hobbiest said:


> Specifically, what I'm trying to boil down is, how much time after I notice first emergers should I allow before using those flies to seed the next culture? If the culture is running on "schedule," that is, I have 1st emergers in 21 days, and then on day 23 or 24, I have a huge mass of flies. Is the best approach just to feed off these, then cull the majority of the rest, and then use flies for seeding when my swarm repopulates?


Once you get a number of cultures running you should have the option of pulling from more than one culture stage so you can vary the point in time the flies emerged from the pupal cases. This allows you to continue to have a diverse pool of development times and tolerances. As I noted above, it was the practice to not use later stages as that would introduce mites which were believed to crash the cultures so there was extreme selection for intolerance and if you go back to the 2004-2008 era, there were a lot more crashes and suggestions on how to avoid them, much of which is really nothing more than voodoo husbandry. 





serial hobbiest said:


> I'm curious about this as well, but I'll hazard a guess and say no. I'm sure Ed will be along shortly to straighten us out. The first emergence is heavily skewed female like 90%ish, so by blending those with later flies, you'll still be creating a female majority, not that it's necessarily a bad thing, however if you seed a little heavy, and you have enough males to satisfy all the females, I think there is a risk of egg/ maggot overpopulation- something that occurred in one of my cultures (I think). I had one, tiny little emergence (before I noticed even a single pupa), but the media was completely churned over and thick with maggots which weren't growing. I started adding nutritional yeast each day for a few days, which got them growing, and finally started seeing pupae, when at that point, I stopped adding additional yeast. The pupae never developed/ emerged, so I trashed the whole thing.


Adding just the yeast adds a lot of ammonia to the media both due to the digestion of the yeast by the larvae but also the microbes so you could have accidentally poisoned the culture or you could have had them suffocate due to excess CO2. 

Was this before you updated your recipe? 

some comments 

Ed


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## serial hobbiest

Ed said:


> Adding just the yeast adds a lot of ammonia to the media both due to the digestion of the yeast by the larvae but also the microbes so you could have accidentally poisoned the culture or you could have had them suffocate due to excess CO2.
> 
> Was this before you updated your recipe?
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


Yeah, (sugarless, no active yeast) and you were responding to a thread I started about it:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/322106-inconsistent-results-my-hydei-cultures.html

Back then, I was in the habit of making a culture every Saturday, and using flies from the newest emergence (freshest culture, I mean) each time, so the oldest flies were just 6 days. I wish I could _know_ the actual cause of its non-development, but by your description of what happens when you select out the survival traits by culturing first emergences, I think we can rule it out. It just never developed in the first place... and my mix is all pre-made, so there's no variability there. That's why I'm leaning in the direction of starvation (well at first... then they got fed, then poisoned, and suffocated later. Now I feel kinda bad. Poor little things ). There was a heck of a lot of maggots. Maybe I had a few more boys than usual in that jar, and consequently more fertilized eggs.

I've only got the one jar on the updated recipe FYI, (onto Repashy now) and honestly, there are bigger maggots in that one than I've seen so far. I wasn't exaggerating when I mentioned the fly that looked like an engorged mosquito. It was full of the beet red media, and ready to pop. Now I've seen two of them so far. 

Thanks for getting me on track, Ed. I'll try to keep my seed flies as diverse as possible.


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## Atrain217

serial hobbiest said:


> Serafim said:
> 
> 
> 
> after reading the other thread I will probably go back to what I was using. Its cheap and it works. I figure all the more experienced froggers have done the trial and error and it works for them..
> 
> 
> 
> ... and the MOST experienced froggers have switched to Rapashy Superfly. I'm giving up on "cheap." But in my searches today, looking for ways to enrich the flies with carotenoids, I found this, and it may be of interest to you:
> 
> www.rzlab.pitt.edu/Publications/Dugas-et-al-2013.pdf
> 
> It includes a recipe like the one you use but with 3 more ingredients to supply carotenoids, and compares the reproductive capability of O. pumilio which were fed flies from that media, with those who were fed flies without the supplementation. The results have gotta make you think twice. If the frogs on the basic fly are so nutrient deficient that they can hardly breed, you have to wonder what other health issues they may have, right? The extra ingredients are in such small amounts, it won't raise your cost significantly, provided you can source them. If I can find them, I may have a go with that recipe, but in the meantime, I'm ordering my Repashy.
Click to expand...


Link doesn't work. Is there a synopsis available?


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## Atrain217

Also, has anyone added any additional carotenoids to the Repashy superfood? Or would that be overkill?


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## S2G

Not necessary.


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## D0S81

Spuddy said:


> Thanks guys for all the replies, apologies also in the time it has taken for me to return to this thread. With regards to how many cultures I need, I presume only one?
> 
> I currently only have two juvenile Leucomelas. I have some 32oz deli cups, should I create one culture a week or every fortnight?
> 
> 
> I'll have to have a lookout for potato flakes although personally I don't think I've ever seen them for sale in shops over here in the UK. Never heard of them.


They just mean powdered tatties, some of which come in flakes. I've seen them in Asda's. You could probably get them in a an off license or corner shop. I think the brand SMASH is flakes. They used to give us dried mash potatoes at junior school served using an icecream scoop. Two scoops of tattie at dinner, and youd ways get powder in the middle. But I doubt flies would mind.


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