# Dark Grey spot(s) on my Leucomelas



## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

I intend to take my frog to the vet, but unfortunately life has lined up in such a way that I'll have to wait until the weekends so I'd like some opinions on what to do in the meantime.

The issue: yesterday I noticed a greyish spot on the frog's back, near one of its two back humps (I'm not sure what the proper term for it is). I'd thought it was initially just some loose leaf litter or whatever stuck to the frog's back. However, after examining it today and seeing that it'd gotten darker in color (blackish grey), and is potentially spreading (noticed another spot close to it or what looked like one), and gently spraying it down with some water to make sure, the spot persisted so it's very unlikely to just be some substrate.

The spot is circled in red in only one of the images below to point out where it is, but not in the other images as to not be distracting. Most of the images were taken immediately after misting so things appear wetting than they usually are.


















































































1. What species ? How long have you had the frog(s) and where did you acquire them ?

*Leucomelas "Fine Spot" that I've had for over three months now. I got them from a local breeder*

2. What are your temperatures (day and night - highs and lows) and how do you measure those temperatures? Does the vivarium have any supplemental heating, and if so, what type?

*My frogs are kept at about 77f all day long because I use my AC. I measure it using a temp gun and an acurite thermometer/hygrometer. There is no supplemental heating.*

3. What lighting is on the enclosure (brand, type, wattage) and does the lighting add heat to the vivarium?

*Chihiros WRGB Slim II, turned on at 50% brightness. The amount of heat it adds should be minimal since I have a small fan blowing heat away from it.*

4. What is the Humidity like (percentage or guesstimate)? What type of water are you using? What is your misting procedure (automated or hand mister, how long and how often)?

*According to the Acurite, it's high 70s to low 80s. In terms of how fast the leaves of plants dry, approximately 1-2 hours after watering if I have my fans on through the entire process. I'm using RO water. I mist twice a day for 30 seconds each. Once half an hour after the lights come on (9:30) and once at 3:30. I mist by hand since I'm currently working from home.*

5. Describe your tank/enclosure and its lid or top, and give details about the ventilation (how many vents, where are they positioned, how large are they).

*It's an 24x18x24 ExoTerra with a cork bark mosaic background (with moss added) and gravel as substrate. There's a generous layer of leaf litter. There are two vents, one at the back top and the front vents provided by the tank. The back vents are about 3 inches. The vents have fans over them that I turn on for an hour or two after watering to make sure everything dries out.*

6. What kind of food are you providing, how much and are you dusting it? What superfine powdered supplements (brand and exact product name) are you using and are they fresh (i.e. how long has the container been open, and how is it stored)?

*I feed it Melanogasters on a daily basis. I dust with Repashy Calcium + that has been stored in the fridge. The supplement is currently about 1.5 months old. Before Calcium + I was using Dendrocare. On Sundays I add a little extra superpig to the Calcium +.*

7. Any other animals in the enclosure currently or recently? Tankmates / other frogs ?

*Other than Dwarf whites, tropical spring tails, miscellaneous mites, small white worms (not nemertean), and fungus gnats, there are no organisms that I know of.*

8. Any type of behavior you would consider 'odd' ?

*Other than the dark grey spot, no, the frog seems healthy thus far, hopping around and exploring the tank. It's activity levels are no different than the usual. It's active for about two hours in the morning and then in the evening. During the day it can be seen hanging around in the vriesea or hiding in leaf litter, not doing much. There also doesn't' seem to be any discernable weight loss.*

9. Have you handled or touched the frogs recently ? Any cleansers, paint, perfumes, bug sprays etc near the tank ?

*I have never touched the frog. The only chemical I use near the tank is rubbing alcohol.*

10. Take pictures of EVERYTHING -- the frogs, the enclosure, the vents. Take numerous pics of everything - that will be of great help.

*Please let me know if additional photos would be helpful.

The plastic thing in the back is just some saran wrap that I've wrapped over a plant that's currently having a hard time. I don't believe the frog's come in contact with it at all.








*
The back area near the vents are a little drier than the rest of the tank as evident by the struggling moss. The frog doesn't seem to particularly prefer the drier area, but will hang out there sometimes. Currently it's hanging out in the bromeliad to give a sense of the humidity level it prefers.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

More images since I've hit the upload cap for the previous post.

I've also forgotten to mention: there's only one frog in there at the moment.






































Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Have you tried using a cotton swab with some water on it to make sure it isn't just dirt? I had a frog I was concerned about having a scrape / infection but when I swabbed it the mark was just a bit of dirt  .

Otherwise it looks, to me at least, like a scrape.


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## amfrogs (Jul 14, 2020)

Doesnt look too concerning to me, husbandry seems excellent. I’d watch it for a day or two and make sure it doesn’t spread, but IMO it looks in good health and you want to avoid the stress of an unnecessary vet trip. Perhaps it scraped its back while crawling under something? 

I‘d monitor for change and if the spot grows or the frog becomes lethargic/stops eating/loses weight etc make a vet appointment


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Thank you for your replies.



fishingguy12345 said:


> Have you tried using a cotton swab with some water on it to make sure it isn't just dirt?


No, I'd thought of doing that but settled on just using a hand mister (at very low pressure) to try to wash it off as I'm uncertain of whether using the cotton swab would make things worse if it were an infection. I'd sprayed the frog down last night. I'm assuming a cotton swab won't cause any issues?



fishingguy12345 said:


> Otherwise it looks, to me at least, like a scrape.





amfrogs said:


> Perhaps it scraped its back while crawling under something?


If you don't mind me asking what made you diagnose it as a scrape rather than a potential fungus/ bacterial issue. From the images I've seen of scrapes (terribilis and their nose rubs etc), scrapes tend to be on the silvery side? But the spot appears more of a dark grey.

But aside from the spot that I believe has darken in color since — it's gotten very noticeable (could just be my mind fooling me and photographs are no help due to questionable color accuracy), the frog still seems to be happily decimating the springtail population.


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## amfrogs (Jul 14, 2020)

Is this a wound?


One of my terribilis has a grey and blue spot that I have never noticed before. Should I be worry?




www.dendroboard.com





in the post above someone said 
“The black border indicate melanocytes which frequently aggregate along the margin of healing abrasions along with new cell migration.”
which made me think scrape rather than bacteria or fungus, which ime (although I’ve seen this on tree frogs rather than darts) are lighter rather than darker.

Here is an example of (I think) a fungal infection which gives lighter pigmentation 








Strawberry Dart Frog Bacterial Infection?


Hi All Major concerns over my recent 5x Strawberry Dart Frog purchase a week ago and their progression of what looks like a bacterial infection on their heads. Talking to others, it seems that the entire shipped of frogs (15 so far have the same issue), they were claimed to be purchased from...




www.dendroboard.com





all frogs are different though so trust your gut!


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Thanks for your insight. I guess I'll wait until I see any noticeable changes in the frog's behavior before taking it to a vet rather than stressing it out unnecessarily.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Two possibilities (Disclaimer: I Am Not A Vet).

1. It's a minor, superficial abrasion that will resolve on its own so long as its not aggravated by persistent scraping along a rock or rough edge somewhere -- i.e. if the frog is attempting to jam itself into a crevice where it habitually sleeps. Seen that happen.

2. D. leucomelas continue to gain spots over at least the first year and a half. These spots begin as gray or dark gray marks with blurry outlines, before they sharpen into the deep black, sharply delineated spots and blotches typical of this species. It _might_ just be new spots coming in.

Obviously, observe it very carefully to see if it's actually a wound or infection that needs veterinary attention.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Fahad said:


> 2. D. leucomelas continue to gain spots over at least the first year and a half. These spots begin as gray or dark gray marks with blurry outlines, before they sharpen into the deep black, sharply delineated spots and blotches typical of this species. It _might_ just be new spots coming in.


That's certainly interesting, I'd thought it was the other way around; black spots form as the frogs get more yellow over time and the yellow cuts into the black. So do the frogs get more black over time?


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Anon123 said:


> That's certainly interesting, I'd thought it was the other way around; black spots form as the frogs get more yellow over time and the yellow cuts into the black. So do the frogs get more black over time?


Well, it's just additional markings. I have a 'standard' female that had an almost solid yellow band around her mid-body, but slowly gained two spots in the fashion I described -- it took a long time over the course of a year. Other standard types I have, gained a few spots or blotches this way around their pelvic girdle or legs.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

A quick update. It looks like the dot was caused by an abrasion. Which is fortunate since that means that it isn't something that's too threatening.

The unfortunate part is that as Fahad to alluded:


Fahad said:


> i.e. if the frog is attempting to jam itself into a crevice where it habitually sleeps. Seen that happen.


It seems to be a persistent scraping as seen by how the frog now has an extra line (scratch) where its humps are located on the back. Frog seems to be doing perfectly fine in terms of activity levels though.











































Do any of you have any tips for identifying the source of the scraping? Before putting any hardscape into the tank I've ran my finger through everything (or at least I think I did) to test for sharpness and sanded things down. Are these minor scratches something to worry about? Or are they to be expected as I'm sure it happens in the wild fairly often. I tried to find older threads about scratches but they ended up being about frogs scratching themselves with their own body parts, not exactly what's happening here.

Thank you.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

If it's a minor scratch from a collision with something it's not likely to be an issue if the frogs are healthy, the habitat/husbandry are keeping bacteria levels down (which you can't exactly see but obviously a sodden, grimy tank will harbour more bacteria than one with adequate circulation etc.) and the scratch is very superficial.

Frog skin has good antimicrobial properties but when there's a real break you can have issues with opportunistic bacteria attacking. My concern here would be that it's the same spot happening continuously, which could maybe cause problems.

Besides inspecting the habitat again to see if anything has changed, you might try providing other opportunities to hide where abrasion isn't an issue. Given multiple choices the frog may decide it likes it better under a coconut shell or something, instead of jamming itself into a crevice somewhere.

Just from the photos nothing looks like cause for alarm as of yet, near as I can tell in terms of the abrasion being superficial. It's something I see periodically on my terribilis because they're lunatics (no really) and usually resolves on its own.

There was one stretch where I saw the abrasions happening repeatedly in the same spot on a female; I saw the small area between branches she was jamming into and filled it with compressed sphagnum moss, problem solved.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Fahad said:


> inspecting the habitat again to see if anything has changed,


How would one go about this? Sticking one's hand into the tank and just running it across any hardscape to see if it's sharp? Would this not scare the frogs? Or should one remove the frog first?



Fahad said:


> you might try providing other opportunities to hide where abrasion isn't an issue. Given multiple choices the frog may decide it likes it better under a coconut shell or something, instead of jamming itself into a crevice somewhere.


Thank you, I'll see if I can source some coconut shells that I know are pesticide free (a hard task given where I'm located). In the mean time, I'll try making a few more leaf "caves" — leaves that are curved downwards and provide ample room between the leaf and the substrate so the frog has a place to hide and feast on springtails.



Fahad said:


> It's something I see periodically on my terribilis because they're lunatics (no really) and usually resolves on its own.


If you don't mind me asking, how long does it take for them to resolve usually?



Fahad said:


> There was one stretch where I saw the abrasions happening repeatedly in the same spot on a female; I saw the small area between branches she was jamming into and filled it with compressed sphagnum moss, problem solved.


I wish I could do the same with ample observation and find out where the frog went to keep on scratching itself against, but unfortunately the back half of my tank is a black box that I can't peer into unless I completely take apart the hardscape. But I guess it's just something that has to be done if the frog keeps on getting more scratches in the same area.

Thank you for your response.


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## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

Anon123 said:


> How would one go about this? Sticking one's hand into the tank and just running it across any hardscape to see if it's sharp? Would this not scare the frogs? Or should one remove the frog first?


The frog will probably resent the intrusion and go to ground for a bit, but not as much as it'd resent being captured and moved. I'd just do a quick manual inspection with the frog present. Nobody likes contractors but as long you don't gouge him on the quote he'll get over it.



Anon123 said:


> Thank you, I'll see if I can source some coconut shells that I know are pesticide free (a hard task given where I'm located). In the mean time, I'll try making a few more leaf "caves" — leaves that are curved downwards and provide ample room between the leaf and the substrate so the frog has a place to hide and feast on springtails.


Good plan ... lots of choices is always a good thing.



Anon123 said:


> If you don't mind me asking, how long does it take for them to resolve usually?


It's so inconsequential I don't really time it, but I'd say 2-7 days if they're not aggravating it. That's a guess ... these are not raw wounds, but very superficial scratches or scuffs.



Anon123 said:


> Thank you for your response.


No worries.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Fahad said:


> The frog will probably resent the intrusion and go to ground for a bit, but not as much as it'd resent being captured and moved. I'd just do a quick manual inspection with the frog present. Nobody likes contractors but as long you don't gouge him on the quote he'll get over it.


Yeah that makes sense. I'll inspect the tank the next time I'm feeding it so I know where it is and can keep my intrusion and risk of accidentally harming it to a minimum.


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