# glass thickness?



## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

I have started my first custom tank. The frame measurements for the glass are 50Lx29Wx29H. Any input as to what thickness the glass should be? It will not be holding water. At least no less than what would be in a false bottom. I will create a photo journal throughout the development process to entertain the dendroboard community when I am complete. Thanks for any advice!


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## frogboy (Sep 25, 2010)

Me and my Dad (Pumilo) use Triple-strength glass on the bottom and double-strength on the sides, top and lid.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

frogboy said:


> Me and my Dad (Pumilo) use Triple-strength glass on the bottom and double-strength on the sides, top and lid.


Thanks Frogboy. I do value yours and your fathers opinion because if I recall, your father works with glass for a living? If you don't mind me inching for specifics, what thickness glass and treatments are you using for triple/double strength glass? Will 3/16" do the trick?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Single strength is 1/8". Double strength is 1/4" - I'd use that. A 40 breeder tank, which measure 36 long x18 wide x16 tall inches are 3/16" on the sides - I don't know what the bottom thickness is.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

johnc said:


> Double strength is 1/8". I'd use that. A 40 breeder tank, which measure 36 long x18 wide x16 tall inches are 3/16" on the sides - I don't know what the bottom thickness is.


So 1/8" all the way around would be suitable? Or should I play it safe and use 3/16"? or combine the two?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Sorry, I made a mistake. 1/4" is double thickness, 1/8" is single thickness/strength. Damn US measurements (I'm European).


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

lol... that sounds more like it.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

frogboy said:


> Me and my Dad (Pumilo) use Triple-strength glass on the bottom and double-strength on the sides, top and lid.


You're absolutely right for our smaller, 25 gallon size. He's going to need thicker for that size, though.



johnc said:


> Sorry, I made a mistake. 1/4" is double thickness, 1/8" is single thickness/strength. Damn US measurements (I'm European).


Hee Hee! I get to teach you something for a change, John! Single Strength, or SS glass is only 1/16 inch thick and is really too thin to be used in tank construction. Double Strength glass is 1/8 inch thick and we use this for anything up to 25 or 30 gallons. We do however, upgrade to Triple Strength, or 3/16 inch glass on the bottom. Anything over 3/16 we usually just call it by the thickness. So the next size would just be quarter inch glass. 



kinison said:


> I have started my first custom tank. The frame measurements for the glass are 50Lx29Wx29H. Any input as to what thickness the glass should be? It will not be holding water. At least no less than what would be in a false bottom. I will create a photo journal throughout the development process to entertain the dendroboard community when I am complete. Thanks for any advice!


Wow! That is huge! 50"x29"x29" divided by 231 gives us 182 gallon Viv! I am a glazier for the last 20 plus years and I do build my own vivs so lets see if I can help you out here. I've never built anything that big so I have consulted a couple of Aquarium glass thickness calculators. The recommended thickness for an *Aquarium* that size is .47 inches...or 1/2 inch thick glass! That's not gonna be cheap! So lets figure that it's not an aquarium, but a Viv. It only has to hold a couple of inches of water. I think if you take that into account, you can get away with a little thinner glass. You could probably get away with 3/8 inch thick glass. *Remember*, you are going less than is recommended and you will lose some strength here! You would have to be very careful if moving it. You would also have to make sure you support it well. Any imperfections or bowing of your stand could cause it to crack. I gotta add this...for liabilities sake...I recommend the 1/2 inch thick glass for a viv of this size. 

Now lets take a look at a real gray area. This is to be considered *NOT* recommended but *I* might try it anyway, for my own, personal viv. If I were to build this *IN PLACE*, and never move it, I might consider even going down to 1/4 inch. Now to get away with this, your stand would have to be very strong, straight, and true. I would cover the corners/edges of all exposed glass with wood corner trim. Glass is the most fragile from the edge and this would protect your vulnerable areas. You would also have to be careful about leaning over your viv at the center so that you don't put pressure there. Again, this would be breaking the rules and I do NOT recommend going this thin! _(but *I* might try it anyway)_ Please by sure that you are not figuring too tall and too wide. You need to make sure that you can reach all areas of your viv to work on plants later, collecting eggs, stuff like that. 
Doug


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks for setting me straight.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

I think you summed it up for me Pumilo. Thank you so much. I have built a frame that will support the glass very well and intend to cover the corners with a nice trim. I think the end result will be impressive. I will be sure to post images however this will be a winter long project of mine. I will head over to the glass shop this weekend and get some quotes now that I know what Im looking for. Thanks again!


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Rather than have the glass shop polish or rough sand the edges, you can save some money by sanding the edges yourself. I use a belt sander and it only takes a few seconds. You could do it by hand, though, or just with an orbital sander. Use the more expensive sandpaper so it lasts longer as glass is rough on it. I think the good stuff is silicone carbide? I use anywhere for 100 to about 220 grit. Just enough to take the edge off so you don't slash yourself open while working on it. Feel free to PM me with questions as you go along. I'd be interested to see what thickness you went with and how it's working out for you. Have you seen the thread for the tanks I built? I'll post or PM you the link if you are interested.
Doug


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Lets set things straight:
Single strength is 3/32" or 2.5mm
Double strength is 1/8", or 3.2mm

There is also a huge difference in the ease of cutting between 1/8 and 1/4", and I'm sure increasingly so up from there. I could cut strips 1/2" wide and 24" long out of SS, but in 1/4"... forget about it.

Personally with a viv that size, I'd be comfortable doing 1/4" all the way around except the bottom which would either be a double (laminated) layer or permanently attached to a piece of plywood or a stand.

Keep us updated on your plans and don't hesitate to ask questions so you don't end up with a non-functional viv.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

btw, I just made 8 vivs from scratch which I'm mostly happy with, so I might be able to give you some pointers on your design.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Right then...I said single strength is 1/16, because it's a measurement that most people can easily picture. When you get into 32nds a bunch of us are going to have to pull out a tape measure. It's also commonly referred to as sixteenth in the industry. Besides...It simply didn't matter in relation to what we were talking about. It's too thin to be building vivs with. So I stand corrected. Single strength glass is 1/32nd of an inch thicker than I stated.

Laminated glass is not necessary or recommended. It's roughly 4 times the price of the same thickness of standard, annealed glass. The strength of laminated glass varies widely depending on the thickness and make up of the interlayer. Some types are weaker than the same thickness of annealed (standard) glass and some of the newer, even more expensive types may be up to twice as strong. Summary-maybe weaker, maybe twice as strong for about 400 percent more money!
Tempered glass, on the other hand is 4 to 5 times stronger than standard, annealed glass. This would make it at least twice as strong as the best laminated unit ever produced. Tempered glass would add about 50 percent to the price. Summary--4 to 5 times as strong for 50 percent more.
This makes laminated a poor choice. Generally laminated glass is used for safety, not strength.
Please keep in mind that tempered glass cannot be drilled or cut after tempering process.

As I professional, for liability, I have provided the industry standard, recommended thickness. I think the Original Poster fully understands the thickness that I would personally choose.
Doug


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I'd be interested to see what thickness you went with and how it's working out for you. Have you seen the thread for the tanks I built? I'll post or PM you the link if you are interested.
> Doug


I will be sure to update you on the thickness I choose w/images to show progress. I would love to see the tanks you have built if you could pm me the link.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

RMB said:


> btw, I just made 8 vivs from scratch which I'm mostly happy with, so I might be able to give you some pointers on your design.


Anything of this size? I would love to hear any "what not to do's" or "oops why didnt I do that."


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

RMB said:


> or permanently attached to a piece of plywood or a stand.


What are some permanent alternatives for the bottom? I fear plywood will warp over time but my bottom does not have to be glass. If there is something that will work better for a bottom I would use it instead of glass. any ideas?


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

That explains that then Pumilo, I'm glad you knew. I'm a cabinetmaker, so I think in 64ths pretty easily.
The biggest vivs I've built have a 17x22.5" footprint and are 1/4" glass. I've moved those several times after completion with everything in them.

What I was thinking about laminated glass was actually siliconing two 1/4" sheets together, just on the bottom. I think that would have sufficient strength. You could even set the top sheet back 1/4" from each side to have a lip to set the sides on. If you went with factory laminated glass you'd have to order it to the exact size, and I think ordering cut pieces gets pretty expensive. What I did was searched craigslist until I found a glass shop that was moving who sold me full sheets of 1/4" plate glass at cost, which was about 35$/sheet. That was lucky for me, hopefully you can find a similar deal. I got all my vivs built for about 150$ in glass, and I broke a lot of pieces and still have some left over. On that note, get at least 50% extra if you're cutting your own glass and aren't used to 1/4". My biggest pitfalls that you may avoid where cutting the doors as calculated off my plans, which ended up being 1/16" too tall once everything was siliconed in and the tracks where on. Other than that, I way over siliconed everything, which doesn't look great, but they where watertight on the first try. What kind of door system are you planning? You should post up a plan of some kind, even if it's a Paint drawing.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Oh, the other bottom option I had thought of was just to silicone 1/4" glass to the top of some kind of plywood, then paint the ply really well to seal it against warpage. I wouldn't recommend doing just a plywood bottom unless you do a fully plywood tank, which is doable, just takes some sealing.


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

RMB said:


> Oh, the other bottom option I had thought of was just to silicone 1/4" glass to the top of some kind of plywood, then paint the ply really well to seal it against warpage.


great. I have plywood already cut to fit the bottom ironically. So I will take that approach.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

RMB said:


> Oh, the other bottom option I had thought of was just to silicone 1/4" glass to the top of some kind of plywood, then paint the ply really well to seal it against warpage.


This would work quite well. Remember that you might want to trim the exposed edge in wood for both looks, and to protect that vulnerable edge. Reinforcing the bottom of the plywood platform/stand with 2x4's would also add a lot of strength and help with warping. Simply the weight of the tank on the plywood will help with warping.



kinison said:


> What are some permanent alternatives for the bottom? I fear plywood will warp over time but my bottom does not have to be glass. If there is something that will work better for a bottom I would use it instead of glass. any ideas?


Glass is definately the way to go. Start mixing materials and you could have problems with silicone sticking and different expansion/contraction over time. Upgrading just the bottom piece to Tempered will get you 4 times the strength. But then, of course, you will need to plan on your drain (if used) coming out the back towards the bottom. Tempered glass cannot be drilled.



RMB said:


> That explains that then Pumilo, I'm glad you knew. I'm a cabinetmaker, so I think in 64ths pretty easily.
> The biggest vivs I've built have a 17x22.5" footprint and are 1/4" glass. I've moved those several times after completion with everything in them.
> 
> What I was thinking about laminated glass was actually siliconing two 1/4" sheets together, just on the bottom. I think that would have sufficient strength. You could even set the top sheet back 1/4" from each side to have a lip to set the sides on. If you went with factory laminated glass you'd have to order it to the exact size, and I think ordering cut pieces gets pretty expensive. What I did was searched craigslist until I found a glass shop that was moving who sold me full sheets of 1/4" plate glass at cost, which was about 35$/sheet. That was lucky for me, hopefully you can find a similar deal. I got all my vivs built for about 150$ in glass, and I broke a lot of pieces and still have some left over. On that note, get at least 50% extra if you're cutting your own glass and aren't used to 1/4". My biggest pitfalls that you may avoid where cutting the doors as calculated off my plans, which ended up being 1/16" too tall once everything was siliconed in and the tracks where on. Other than that, I way over siliconed everything, which doesn't look great, but they where watertight on the first try. What kind of door system are you planning? You should post up a plan of some kind, even if it's a Paint drawing.


RMB, sorry if I overreacted a little there. One sixteenth too tall is not a major problem. Granted, cutting off a sixteenth is most likely impossible. But a belt sander would make short work of it. Just let it cool now and then. If it gets too hot it could break. When you silicone, if you use masking tape, it helps. So if you decide on a 3/16 bead you put the masking tape on 3/16ths from the edge. Silicone it up, smooth out the bead, and quickly strip off the tape while the silicone is still wet. This makes for a crisp, clean bead. I don't usually bother, but I'm making breeder tanks, not display tanks. Also I've applied about umpteen thousand tubes of silicone in the last 25 years! I did use the masking method on my brother's display tank and it worked great.
The glass for my last 60 vivs cost me...NUTHIN! My glass manufacturer gives me their mistake units and factory rejects!!
There was a thread on here about silicones...can't seem to find it now. But in summary, use GE silicone 1 and NOT GE silicone 2.
My biggest Vivs are 24"x24"x24" in 3/16" glass. I have moved it fully loaded once without a bottom plywood piece. It's your 50" long that's going to make yours more fragile.



kinison said:


> I will be sure to update you on the thickness I choose w/images to show progress. I would love to see the tanks you have built if you could pm me the link.


I do Euro slope fronts for ease of egg/tad collection. I'll pm that to you.
Doug


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> This would work quite well. Remember that you might want to trim the exposed edge in wood for both looks, and to protect that vulnerable edge. Reinforcing the bottom of the plywood platform/stand with 2x4's would also add a lot of strength and help with warping. Simply the weight of the tank on the plywood will help with warping.


I have a nice strong steel frame I have tacked together. On top of that will lay the plywood and then the glass. Let me get a picture up later today.


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

Problem was that I was using sliding doors in a track and they just wouldn't get into the track, good thing the top of the glass is hidden by the track so I was able to just nibble it off. With a hinged front it of course wouldn't be a big deal.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

RMB said:


> Problem was that I was using sliding doors in a track and they just wouldn't get into the track, good thing the top of the glass is hidden by the track so I was able to just nibble it off. With a hinged front it of course wouldn't be a big deal.


Yeah, I figured that. I was just pointing out a belt sander for a possible option if there is a next time. You could still use a belt sander to clean up those "nibbled" edges.
Doug


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

Pumilo, may I also get that link. I'm interested in seeing how you do your tanks.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ryangreenway said:


> Pumilo, may I also get that link. I'm interested in seeing how you do your tanks.


Sure thing, already sent. I just didn't want to post it without an invite...I feel like that's Thread Hijacking. I am going to do a full construction thread, including a lesson on cutting glass. If you want to watch for it it will probably be called SLOPE FRONT CONSTRUCTION. Might still be a month.
Doug


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## kinison (Jul 1, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I am going to do a full construction thread, including a lesson on cutting glass. If you want to watch for it it will probably be called SLOPE FRONT CONSTRUCTION. Might still be a month.
> Doug


That will end up on my bookmark list. Cant wait.


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## ryangreenway (Apr 30, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sure thing, already sent. I just didn't want to post it without an invite...I feel like that's Thread Hijacking. I am going to do a full construction thread, including a lesson on cutting glass. If you want to watch for it it will probably be called SLOPE FRONT CONSTRUCTION. Might still be a month.
> Doug


I love the look of those tanks, can't wait for you to post the build thread so I can build my own.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

ryangreenway said:


> I love the look of those tanks, can't wait for you to post the build thread so I can build my own.


Thanks guys, I'll try to get moving on it.
Doug


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