# Substrate Mesh Q



## KjH (Jan 14, 2008)

I am building a 55g vivarium with a false bottom and I have the false bottom done and ready for the most part (still need to make a removable section for the waterfall pump) 

I was wondering though and can't find a lot of detail about it.. 
I have a 3inch false bottom, and then am going to have the clay pellets (much like teralite I believe but since I couldn't get that shipped to me I bought what joshs frogs had to offer) but between the egg crate and the pellets, what kind of mesh is appropriate/safe and where would I get it? 

I read somewhere on another site that needlepoint mesh was used with success, so I went to a fabric store and have a large roll, just now looking at it, since its like a fabric I think it may rot or mold or something that could be harmful and a pain later. Theres a wire mesh at Home Depot that I believe is for windows or screen doors or something, but am also unsure if it would contaminate the tank in any way.

Also the wire mesh would mold around the false bottom better, so if its safe I would like to buy the home depot stuff... I know you can buy mesh from some PDF websites that is like a penny per square inch but that would be like 30 dollars worth of mesh not to mention shipping. I will buy it if the home depot stuff is unsafe. any info?

thanks
-Kal


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Just buy screen at home depot of lowes. If you have a very fine substrate then just double the screen to prevent the substrate from falling through. I believe that HD has different kinds of screen but I've never had a problem with any, just buy the cheapest.


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## KjH (Jan 14, 2008)

alright thanks. Home depot it is


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

You can pick up what they call mosquito screen at lowe's. I got a roll of it for 8$ It is the finest mesh they have and it is fiberglass. Metal screning is a bad choice IMO. 

Alot of the metal screens are aluminium, aluminium corrodes when wet for prolonged periods. Although i honestly don't have any evidence to back it up i really don't think that the chemicals given off from aluminium as it is corroding would be at all good for the frogs or other critters in the tank. (there is actually studies going on that are linking chemicals given off from aluminium to alztimers in people)

Some metal screen is stainless, while this is a better option IMO than aluminium there is problems with this too. 
1. it is a more expensive option than aluminium or fiberglass. 
2. Stainless contains iron, iron rusts, stainless is an alloy that is supposed to supress oxidation (rusting) do to high content of nickle. However the grade of stainless used for screen is not a high grade of stainless and it WILL rust even if it is just surface rust. 

Surface rust is actually worse due to the fact it will flake off and sooner or later your pump,filter,waterfall, and any substrate in contact with the water will absorb this making for if nothing else an unattractive appearence and one hell of a cleaning job.


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## KjH (Jan 14, 2008)

thanks! those were all the worries i had about using metal also... ill go to home depot and ask for mosquito netting


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Chano said:


> Alot of the metal screens are aluminium, aluminium corrodes when wet for prolonged periods. Although i honestly don't have any evidence to back it up i really don't think that the chemicals given off from aluminium as it is corroding would be at all good for the frogs or other critters in the tank. (there is actually studies going on that are linking chemicals given off from aluminium to alztimers in people)


When aluminum comes in contact with water and/or oxygen, it rapidly converts to aluminum oxide. However, this outer layer of aluminum oxide is chemically inert and protects the remaining aluminum metal from exposure and prevents it from rusting. This is why aircraft that are made with extensive amounts of aluminum do not readily rust. Similarly for aluminum cans.

Aluminum does not corrode the way certain other metals do (such as iron that shows flaking) and therefore is not going to release harmful chemicals.

The link between aluminum and Alzheimer's has never been scientifically established though there are those who make a living trying to do so.

BTW aluminum is the third most abundant element in the earth's crust (about 8% by weight) after oxygen and silicon and is found combined within over 270 different minerals. So it's a fair bet that any of our frog vivs contain appreciable amounts of aluminum in some form. In addition this also speaks against the aluminum-Alzheimer's link as we are exposed to massive amounts of aluminum over our lifetimes from soil and dust.

Bill


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

elmoisfive said:


> This is why aircraft that are made with extensive amounts of aluminum do not readily rust. Similarly for aluminum cans.
> 
> 
> Bill


Aluminium does not rust because it does not contain iron. Aircraft and cans (among many other products) are made from aluminium because it is lightweight,cheap, and easy to work with (however it is fairly difficult to extract from ore as compared to iron). It has nothing to do with rusting or lack there of. When iron oxidizes it creats iron oxide (Fe2O3) or more commonly known as rust. It can also be a couple other forms but this is the one that concerns us. Antoher thing about aluminium as far as your "fair bet" Uranium is found more plentifully than one would imagine i assume you don't dissagree that is a highly toxic element yet it is also found in the earth crust as is arsneic. Different forms have different effects on different orginisims. Personally if you wish to use it for your tanks you are welcomed to do so. I however would not and i would not reccomend anyone to do the same and i have good reason i have seen with my own eyes.

We used to set out aluminium barstock outside as the scale would be easily machined off, we figured it would be a good spot for it rather than to take up much needed room in the shop for stainless and castings. To this day nothing grows in the spot the aluminium sat for 6 months and that was 5 years ago. I'll skip the metals in my tank, being in my trade i have learned to much about metal properties and long term effect studies haven't really been done much. Better safe than sorry IMO. Also you are right that the link has not been proven but there is enough suggestion there to warrent federal and private funding so it isn't just a crackpot theory. 

I belive i have some pieces of barend arround someplace maby ill put them in a container of water and let them sit just to see what happens. I have a powerhead that barely puts out any water i could use to simulate a gentle flow I am interested to see if the corrosion will flake over time as i know you can take a shop rag and wipe the outer layers off after a fairly short time.

P.S. I hope you don't take this as me being rude or anything of the sort I simply disagree and felt i should point a few things out


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

actually... im going to have to agree with bill on this one... when aluminum reacts with the atmosphere it forms a protective film on the outside, which then prevents further corrosion. There are a lot of other metals that do this, like copper, and especially zinc (galvanization uses a lot of zinc if im remembering correctly my building tech class) Soo anyway... a lot of things contain aluminum for this reason. 

I dont think bill was trying to imply that aluminum _rusts_ anyway, it was just a misused word... 

As for the uranium thing... I've never seen info on that... kinda curious about that now though

Now that this thread is getting pretty much hijacked though... im gonna say that you should just go get the fiberglass stuff... It cuts easier


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Actually I don't bother with mesh so it's a non issue for me :wink: 

Bill


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

aluminum cans may be made out of aluminum, but they are also coated in tin. without the tin coating, the cans would eventually leak from the contents inside corroding the aluminum. same with aluminum foil, and other aluminum products used to hold food.


anyway...besides screens, there is also plastic Weed Cloth.


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## jtrasap (Sep 19, 2007)

*Screen*

On the last couple of tanks that I built I used weed barrier cloth. On all of the tanks before that I used fiberglass screen. Weed barrier is a bit finer than the fiberglass screen but I have used both without any problems. I myself would probably steer clear of the Aluminum. Better safe than sorry. :wink: .


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

i should have mentioned that i'm using weed cloth in my large viv and so far it seems to still be doing fine after almost 2 years of being set up now.


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## KjH (Jan 14, 2008)

wow! thanks for all the responses. I have no problem with it getting side tracked.. good info.

even with popcans coated in tin, the acid will eat through it in not as much time as you would think. I had 2 sitting on a shelf and probably within 3 years they both sprung pin sized holes and leaked. though that has nothing to do with anything :wink: 

thanks for all the help, i did go with the fiberglass netting. so hopefully things will work out well... I'll post pictures after I get substrates in


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

Here is a question kinda on topic i wonder if anyone has thought about or maby has some info on. The weed cloth i have seen (there could be more types as i havent looked into it much) is pretty thin stuff. I wonder how long it would take to begin breaking down and biodegrading(sp?)


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

yea chano i was kinda thinking about that too... a lot of that stuff is rated for like 5 or 10 years or so... and would imagine it would be much less in a viv


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

hard to say. under the ground outside in a garden or flower bed its kept constantly wet as well. unless of course you let your flower beds or gardens get bone dry


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Weed cloth is quality stuff. The stuff I yanked out of a tank after one year of use was as good as when I put it in. 



Chano said:


> Aluminium does not rust because it does not contain iron. Aircraft and cans (among many other products) are made from aluminium because it is lightweight,cheap, and easy to work with (however it is fairly difficult to extract from ore as compared to iron).


The price depends on the alloy. CP is going to be significantly less expensive than 2195 for example. Aluminum is not less expensive than iron. Aluminum is used in the aircraft industry for its strength to weight ratio; the automotive industry would like to move to it for the same reason. For military application, it's used for that in addition to its ballistic properties. Ease of working with it has nothing to do with its choice. If the stuff were easy to work with, there wouldn't be millions if not billions of dollars being pured into R&D to address the numerous manufacturing problems with aluminum. 



> We used to set out aluminium barstock outside as the scale would be easily machined off, we figured it would be a good spot for it rather than to take up much needed room in the shop for stainless and castings. To this day nothing grows in the spot the aluminium sat for 6 months and that was 5 years ago.I'll skip the metals in my tank, being in my trade i have learned to much about metal properties and long term effect studies haven't really been done much. Better safe than sorry IMO. Also you are right that the link has not been proven but there is enough suggestion there to warrent federal and private funding so it isn't just a crackpot theory.


There are plenty of metals suitable for use in our tanks, they just aren't exactly inexpensive. For example, 316L and Ti-6-4 are two materials used for implants which I would not hesitate to use in my tanks, and have (316L specifically). 



> I belive i have some pieces of barend arround someplace maby ill put them in a container of water and let them sit just to see what happens. I have a powerhead that barely puts out any water i could use to simulate a gentle flow I am interested to see if the corrosion will flake over time as i know you can take a shop rag and wipe the outer layers off after a fairly short time.


What are you interested in proving by doing this? Simple things as local water chemistry are going to nullify your results unless you quantify them in a control, temperature is another biggy. Corrosion is also highly alloy dependent. For example, 6061 is generally corrosion resistant because of the passive Al2O3 oxide layer - which Bill already brought up - however, in salt water, it actively corrodes.


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## Chano (Oct 29, 2007)

defaced said:


> Ease of working with it has nothing to do with its choice. If the stuff were easy to work with, there wouldn't be millions if not billions of dollars being pured into R&D to address the numerous manufacturing problems with aluminum.


If you consider machineability of aluminium compared to Iron, stainless, titanium ect. aluminium is far easier to work with and cheaper due to tool life,wear and actual tools used. For example try to use 5% cobalt high speed steel to cut titanium or even stainless. Your tool life is going to be reduced drasticly when compared to aluminium. There will alwyas be millions of dollars poured into refining machining practices to reduce costs and increase profits. I did not mean that it is easy to work with like soft plastics such as delrin or vynal. Also those were reasons one would choose aluminium not all of those reasons will be eveident or even relivent in all situations. maby i did not make that clear. Yes iron may be cheaper in raw form but to work the metal is not at least not in my experience.



defaced said:


> There are plenty of metals suitable for use in our tanks, they just aren't exactly inexpensive. For example, 316L and Ti-6-4 are two materials used for implants which I would not hesitate to use in my tanks, and have (316L specifically).


I never intended to deny this but if you are going to use something like that in your tank you are pretty much crazy as the cost is insane compared to any reasonable material. I was talking about practical materials. Not to mention where do you plan on finding screen made of either of these alloys? In general most people would not have access to these materials let alone screen made from these materials



> What are you interested in proving by doing this? Simple things as local water chemistry are going to nullify your results unless you quantify them in a control, temperature is another biggy. Corrosion is also highly alloy dependent. For example, 6061 is generally corrosion resistant because of the passive Al2O3 oxide layer - which Bill already brought up - however, in salt water, it actively corrodes.


I am interested in finding out if the corosion will come off on its own or if it has to be phisically removed. The change in the water chemistry from those added minerals. (in theory) COULD effect the health of our frogs or inverts. I have a RO/DI unit so my water is pretty pure. (which would be my control) I can also sample water from several different sources and several different grades of aluminium. (6061, 7075, may have some others not 100% sure, but if not one phone call and i could get some.) and the temp range i would use would be the temp range our frogs are kept. I really dont care about any other environment as this conversation revolves around the safty of our animals in an area where no studies (that i am aware of) have been conducted.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> If you consider machineability of aluminium compared to Iron, stainless, titanium ect. aluminium is far easier to work with and cheaper due to tool life,wear and actual tools used.


Knew you were going to say that. 
Machining is only one of the many metalworking techniques needed to fabricate something. When you say "easy to work with", you encompass the entire metalworking pallet that can be done to that material. Limiting your view to just considering machining is, well, naive. There's not really any other way to put it. 

My larger point is that there are many materials that are an absolute bear to work with that are being used everyday in demanding applications. Inconel 625 is a good example. Sucks to machine, sucks to weld, sucks to cold form, sucks to hot form. "easy to work with" = negligible for many applications




> I never intended to deny this but if you are going to use something like that in your tank you are pretty much crazy as the cost is insane compared to any reasonable material. I was talking about practical materials. Not to mention where do you plan on finding screen made of either of these alloys?


Yea, they're expensive by the pound, but I'm only using a fraction of a pound usually. 
I don't use 316L mesh, but I do use 316L for certain things. More broadly though, I wouldn't really have any reservations of using any of the common austenitic stainless steel in a tank. I'd look at the chemistry before I used it, but off the top of my head, none of them are particularly objectionable. 

Spare yourself the time of the corrosion testing and read some papers on the topic. Aluminum is widely studied. 

Local water chemistry is not going to be representative of the water chemistry in the tank, and at that, the chemistry from one tank is not going to be the same as the chemistry in another tank. There is also more to consider than just water chemistry because of the application of using aluminum screen as a barrier between a drainage layer and a substrate. What is the chemistry of the substrate? What is the level of oxygen available to the aluminum? Does the aluminum actually stay completely submerged? Does the level of submersion have an effect - water that just barely covers the surface vs total submersion. There's alot more to a corrosion test than meets the eye, and there are alot more corrosion tests (assuming you're interested in a standardized one) than you can shake a stick at.


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