# Fern-related emergency



## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

I haven't had any issues like this so far, so hoping someone can help.

This is a fern "machu picchu" that I just got yesterday.

Here's a picture from last night, right after I mounted it (sorry for the low resolution):



I wanted to put it right in the vivarium rather than my tabletop greenhouse, since the vivarium has better light and humidity. The person I bought it from said they like a lot of light and humidity. So I processed it right away - soaked in water about 15 min, then 5% bleach solution for 2 min., then rinsed, then soaked in RO water for another 10-15 min. 

I planted it up at the very top of the vivarium. I've seen it planted in this location in other threads. It's just a couple inches from the LED lights. I wrapped some sphagnum around the roots and jammed it in a big crack in the cork bark, then I gave it a good misting.

Then within about 4 hours the leaves started turning slightly brownish/yellowish, and still in this condition 24 hours later.

Here's a picture of the worst-affected frond:



Here's how I have it mounted, which shows the condition of some of the other fronds:




Possible explanations that I can think of:

1. Normal settling in period. I've read some plants can have a little "ugly duckling" period after you stick them in the vivarium, but it's odd to me that this happened in a matter of hours.

2. Damage from bleach. I only used a 5% bleach solution, and only for 2 minutes, and I thought I rinsed it off well, but who knows. Maybe this one is more fragile than most, but I've used this same treatment on stuff like selaginella and jewel orchids without causing damage.

3. Damage from heat during shipping. Was shipped USPS priority and received within 2 days. Looked fine when I opened the package, packed with moist sphagnum. I picked up the package right after it was delivered, so it wasn't sitting on my porch all day. But before that it was basically on a truck from New Jersey to Omaha for 36 hours. It for delivery for about 4 hours, and presumably spent the rest of the time in USPS shipping facilities. I don't know if it could have been subjected to heat, especially while on the truck, that would have stressed it out.

4. Water damage - I don't believe I could have overwatered it in a matter of hours, but maybe I let it soak too long, or maybe it doesn't like water on its leaves. I misted it right after I mounted it in the cork bark, and there was still water on the leaves a couple hours later before I turned the lights off, so I shook the excess water off.


Usually with more fragile plants, I'll put them in my tabletop greenhouse for several days to let them "recover" from shipping, before I put them in bleach solution. I might have made a mistake and jumped the gun with this one.

I'd appreciate any advice on what I might have done wrong, and what I should to do solve this. I feel bad because this is a rare fern and I thought I was confident enough to not kill it. I'd really like to take preventative action before this gets any worse.

Thanks for reading,
Thane


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

Were I to make a guess, off hand I'd be thinking shipping stress + bleach + (maybe) delicate plant = trauma. 

At this point what's done is done and all you can is make sure all the environmental conditions are A+ n hope for the best


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks - I appreciate it. I wish I hadn't gotten impatient this time and just let it recuperate for a week or so before I put it in the bleach solution. Hopefully I can save it. It hasn't gotten any worse in the last 24 hours, so I hope that's a good sign.

Thanks again,
Thane


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

sometimes ferns, as you probably already know, can be tricky to transplant--even something as a change of water--can affect them. The pH, or other things in your water might have a negative impact....if it were me, I'd cut the fronds back by half to give it more energy to recover...you would probably not want those fronds at some point anyway...


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks Judy - 

Update: After 2 days they still had the kind of brownish streaks in them. I was worried I was at risk of overwatering it and/or the roots rotting - the high corner where I put it doesn't get a lot of air movement, and I had the sphagnum wrapped around the roots. So I took it and put it in the substrate with no sphagnum to give it some good drainage. The brown areas have not spread any further, so I'm hopeful I can save it. However the fronds are kind of more yellowish than I would want. I wonder if I might need to move it back closer to the light to correct that.

So you think at this point I should trim away the more damaged fronds? Usually I've done that on my established ferns, but they typically only have a couple brown ones, not throughout the whole plant, so I hadn't thought to on this one. Is the thinking that the plant expends more energy repairing the damaged leaves than they are producing through photosynthesis?

Thanks again,
Thane


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Here's some updated photos from today. When I compare, the brown spots look a little darker, but the center looks a little greener. Might just be the lighting though.






Side by side:


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

I've had that same thing happen to mine, I'm not sure but I think it's due to lack of air movement. I guess it could be coincidental but a small fan seemed to solve the problem for me.


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks Sammie - I saw your post on another thread about this fern but couldn't find much care information anywhere. Do you have any other suggestions? I was told it likes a lot of light and humidity, but was not able to find out how much water it likes. I assume this is one that doesn't like to have water on its leaves all the time, but to be allowed to dry out? I've got wetter and dryer areas of the vivarium I can move it to. 

I've only seen it mounted epiphytically also, so not sure if I can grow it in the substrate or have to put it back on my cork background at some point either. Also not sure whether to mount with or without sphagnum around the roots? I have almost everything in the wall mounted in sphagnum, but took this one off because I was worried about the roots rotting.

The problem trying to find a place with good air movement is the vents in my vivarium are towards the front, so at the top of the wall where I had it, there's not much air movement. I keep a ceiling fan on in the room to promote air movement through the vents, though, and I've had success with tillandsia, which people say like a lot of air movement, mounted epiphytically.

If I can figure out all the different factors, what works best for this one, I should be able to find a good spot for it. Some plants I've had to move around 4 times just to find the perfect spot.

Thank you so much for your assistance. I just wish there was a little more information about this fern out there. I was hoping I could have some success with it to get it more established in the US.

Tusen tack,
Thane


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Removing the sphagnum was probably a good idea. My best looking ones are pinned to cork without any substrate at all to allow the roots to breathe and to let it "dry out" slightly between mistings. "Drying out" might be a poor choice of words though, I never let it dry out completely. "Less moist" would be more accurate. 

For me it grows better epiphytically (it seems to really like some air movement around the roots.) but I had a couple in pots (50/50 mix of peat and tree fern fiber) and they did alright too. 

Luckily this is not one of those ferns that melts over night if the conditions are wrong and it doesn't seem too bothered by having it's roots disturbed either so it should be okay to move it around a bit to find that perfect spot.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

when you remove half the foliage, in it's survival mode it will try to better establish itself...it may seem counter intuitive, but it will recover faster without having to support the whole frond....when you propagate cuttings, you remove half the leaf...same premise for recovery of your fern. Seriously...test your water and perhaps even check with the buyer...you have nothing to lose except your fern...since the fern is an Asplenium, perhaps looking at care and cultivation of that family might give you some ideas..


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

Are you sure about the genus?


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks Judy and Sammie,

That's a lot of good info. It did look a little better this morning. I didn't realize you could just leave the roots exposed in the air like that, but the roots did seem to be extra "hairy" compared to others, perhaps they're better at retaining moisture that way.

Judy - it's a good thought but I don't know why I'd have water issues. I just buy jugs of RO water, no minerals added, from a hydroponic store and that's all I use to mist. I think I might have stressed it out from the bleach solution though. I checked with the buyer - he had told me it likes a lot of humidity and light, so I was going with that. I don't think there was any issue on his part, I think it just ended up being a little warmer than expected and I suspect it got stressed out in shipping. I'm getting some more plants next week and I'll see if I can get them shipped with a cold pack, and wait another week or two before putting them in the vivarium.

I will look up care info on that genus. I searched online and the only reference to a "machu picchu" fern that looks like this one is here on dendroboard. So I suspect it's either called something else, or just a fern that hasn't been identified elsewhere. I don't know enough about ferns (other than the common ones I can find locally) to even make a guess. The only info I could find is that it seems to be more established in the European hobby, so I was really glad Sammie was able to give some first-hand info on it's care.

Thank you both again,
Thane


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Update for anyone who's curious: 

Fern still has some brown spots on all the leaves, but has not gotten worse. Brown spots appear to be just around the edges now, and the center parts are looking healthier. I don't know if the center is where new growth occurs or what, but to me it seems to be looking healthier. 

I took Judy's advice and removed some of the most damaged fronds. I also took Sammie's advice and just stuck it in a big crack in the cork with no sphagnum or anything around the roots. I mist it every day or so on the roots, trying not to leave any standing water on the fronds.


Here's an updated picture from today:




I also hope this is a good sign - seeing some small new fronds around the base now. Sorry the picture quality is not great.




Thanks again,
Thane


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Bleach, when it comes to plants and, in my own opinion is entirely unnecessary for anything other than a false sense of security. Bare root it and use a mild surfactant with plenty of fresh water. Dry foliage, and insert as you please.


EDIT: not really my opinion based on empirical knowledge but, i seem to remember reading something while staying at a Holiday Inn Express.




chin_monster said:


> Were I to make a guess, off hand I'd be thinking shipping stress + bleach + (maybe) delicate plant = trauma.
> 
> At this point what's done is done and all you can is make sure all the environmental conditions are A+ n hope for the best


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

aspidites73 said:


> Bleach, when it comes to plants and, in my own opinion is entirely unnecessary for anything other than a false sense of security. Bare root it and use a mild surfactant with plenty of fresh water. Dry foliage, and insert as you please.
> 
> 
> EDIT: not really my opinion based on empirical knowledge but, i seem to remember reading something while staying at a Holiday Inn Express.


Thank you - I just got some other more sensitive plants (dracula lotax orchid and utricularia sandersonii), and was a little shell shocked about bleaching these. I got them about a week ago and have just been keeping them in containers to let them recouperate from shipping. Hadn't decided whether I'd try and bleach these before putting in the tank.

When you say mild surfactant, do you mean just maybe get a little dish soap on the leaves then rinse a whole lot? My main fear isn't even plant pathogens, it's getting slugs or snails in the tank. From what I've read, it's a nightmare to try and get rid of them.

Thanks,
Thane


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## aspidites73 (Oct 2, 2012)

Slugs, Snails, and a number of other nasty flora and fauna pests is exactly my point. A mild dish soap without any scents is what I use. I don't even like the concept of using anti-bacterial soaps on a regular basis. Rinse very well in lukewarm water to help the soap work and aid in removal. I also like your idea of holding off on any processing and let the plant establish itself in similar conditions. Process and repot when you see fresh growth. Personally, I like to keep a mother plant and trim clippings for use in vivs. Especially if the plants came from someone using harsh pesticides and ferts.



thane said:


> Thank you - I just got some other more sensitive plants (dracula lotax orchid and utricularia sandersonii), and was a little shell shocked about bleaching these. I got them about a week ago and have just been keeping them in containers to let them recouperate from shipping. Hadn't decided whether I'd try and bleach these before putting in the tank.
> 
> When you say mild surfactant, do you mean just maybe get a little dish soap on the leaves then rinse a whole lot? My main fear isn't even plant pathogens, it's getting slugs or snails in the tank. From what I've read, it's a nightmare to try and get rid of them.
> 
> ...


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

aspidites73 said:


> Bleach, when it comes to plants and, in my own opinion is entirely unnecessary for anything other than a false sense of security. Bare root it and use a mild surfactant with plenty of fresh water. Dry foliage, and insert as you please.
> 
> 
> EDIT: not really my opinion based on empirical knowledge but, i seem to remember reading something while staying at a Holiday Inn Express.


I very much agree with this. Bleach is terrible on living things, and plants are no different (even diluted). When I first started keeping plants, my mentor told me nothing good ever comes from bleaching a plant and I think she was right. I bleached a few things very early on and it never went well.

By the way it's a really pretty plant you've got!


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks - I think the next ones I do I'll try using the dish soap instead of bleach.

To give an update, the last couple days the leaves seem to be a little big browner. I just don't think the affected ones are ever going to get better. There's more of the very small new fronds, which appear to be healthy. 

I'm considering just trimming away ALL of the old ones, but don't know if that would be wise. So far I have just removed some of the worse ones here and there. But I was afraid to remove all affected ones, because basically every one on the plant was affected, so it would have no leaves at all. Now that I'm seeing a little growth I wonder if I could do that. Seems like a bold move, but if someone could give me a little guidance, I'm definitely willing to consider it.

Thanks everyone for your continued support,
Thane


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

So I figured some pictures might be more helpful.

The good: Seeing more and more new fronds at the base. These look good to me. They've got some reddish color on them but I think that's normal for some species. Look how pretty these are:



The bad: All of the existing fronds have at least this much damage. 


I can't figure out whether they're stable, and just not getting worse, or actually getting worse. Here's a picture of the whole plant for reference. I made the picture pretty large so it should show good detail:


The ugly: Here's a picture of the worst one. I had been trimming the very worst ones, as Judy suggested above, hoping it could encourage the plant to focus on new growth and establishing roots. I figure one that looks like this isn't going to get better anyways.



I guess I'm seeing some new growth, but worried that all of the larger fronds could be considered "damaged." Should I be removing all of them, or are the less damaged ones better to leave on? Where do I draw the line? Is it possible to cut all of the larger ones away at this point without killing the plant?

Thanks for anyone who's reading this and can provide some guidance. I feel bad because it was my own impatience and inexperience that caused this in the first place. The person who sold me this has been exceedingly helpful and I really don't want to let him down.

Thanks again,
Thane


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

thane said:


> So I figured some pictures might be more helpful.
> 
> The good: Seeing more and more new fronds at the base. These look good to me. They've got some reddish color on them but I think that's normal for some species. Look how pretty these are:
> 
> ...


I really struggle with knowing when to cut and when not too. I hate cutting something off that might be fine if I leave it a little longer. I recently lost an entire fern and I kept betting myself up over if i'd only done x or only did y earlier. It's a constant struggle for me...i have a lot of plants.. 

I think sticking with Sally's suggestion and just cutting the worse is a good rule of thumb. I'm not sure what time scale we're talking about here, I forgot already. But maybe cut a frond after a week if you see it worsen. You've been documenting with pictures really well, maybe photograph the worse frond every day and compare day 1 with day 7 and see if you can note a difference? 

Good luck and I hope it recovers.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I bought Davallia feejensis (mounted) and some Microsorum 'trident' in early July. After a few days an extraordinary summer heat (according to meteorologists) came here, that still continues. The ferns began to have brown leaves (Microsorum also dry leaves). I cut off all the leaves. Now from the rhizome of Davallia new leaves are growing... So if the rhizome is healthy, there are no problems for ferns.
I admit, however, I am not an expert in ferns, in the sense that I have just Microsorum spp., Bolbitis difformis (great fern) and an NOID fern sprout of the orchid bark.


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

My opinion - let the new fronds develop a little more. Right now the damaged fronds are still helping with photosynthesis and providing energy to the plant. Cutting the damaged parts off now will slow the new growth and force the plant to use its reserves to continue to put out new fronds. The damage doesn't seem to be hurting the plant overall, just a little unsightly. Give it a little more time.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

not being familiar with the specifics of that particular fern...can you look up whether the "brown spots" on the frond margins aren't, in fact, sori (spores)? A lot of ferns do have sori in that manner....I'd Google that fern, but am so busy right this minute, and know myself well enough that if I do that, will get sidetracked for the next couple of hours!!


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks Judy,

That's an interesting idea. I'll run that by a couple of the people I know who keep this one (it's just called "machu picchu" on here. I haven't seen any equivalent outside dendroboard (but feel free to spend hours searching if you feel like it!). 

What makes me think they're probably not spores is all the brown spots developed within a matter of hours after me bleaching the plant and putting it in the vivarium. Like it was green, then brown streaks/spots within 4 hours. It was a real downer. 

So I'll ask around, because that would be good news, and a great reason to leave on some of those fronds. Based one what I'm reading here, though, I think I'm going to remove a couple of the most damaged ones, leave the healthier ones on there, and be happy there's some new growth showing.

Thanks again everyone,
Thane


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

In case anyone was curious, I thought I'd post one final update. So basically, over time, I've ended up removing almost all of the original fronds as they've died off. There's only a couple left now and I'll probably end up having to remove them in the next week or two. 





BUT, There's also lots more new growth, which all appears healthy from what I can tell, but it's tiny and I assume will be verrrrry slow growing. So I'm hopeful that it will be full and healthy .... eventually .... someday.



"Life finds a way"
---- Dr. Ian Malcolm 



Biggest lesson learned: don't go dunking sensitive plants in bleach, especially after they've been shipped in hot conditions. I've actually got a order of rare plants coming from Ecuador in the next couple weeks, and decided to make a plants-only terrarium, just so I don't have to treat them. These will take a lot longer to ship, and be treated with harsh chemicals, so I just didn't want to stress them out any further. Hoping I can receive them in good condition and set them up for success. I'm keeping a build log here for any of you plant people who are curious to see if I can pull that one off.

Thanks again for all your help and support. Sorry if I geeked out a little hard on this plant, but I felt bad and really didn't want this one to die.

Thane


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Yay! looks like it's on the road to recovery. Also thumbs up for the Jurassic Park reference.


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

Well I thought I'd post another update just for fun. This frog keeps climbing up to the top corner of the tank (2 feet up), and hangs out there about half the time, right above the fern. Not sure if he thinks the good flies are there, or he's trying to escape or what. So I took a picture. You can see the fern right below the frog. Fronds are looking nice and healthy and bright green now. So I think it likes the light and moisture it's getting. Just very slow growing. I bet it will take a year before they reach the original size. There's another interesting fern that came out of the New Zealand sphagnum to the right, also slow growing, but I don't have an ID on that yet.



I think I learned my lesson with this and another plant shipment. I got some plants shipped internationally that were shipped in warmer weather (highs in the 80s), and another shipment in cooler weather (highs in the 60s) and the cooler weather were in FAR better condition. So I'm just going to stick with that from now on out.


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