# Phoenix Worms



## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

I have seen where people have been talking about feeding small mealworms to their PDFs, and I was curious to see if anyone has tried phoenix worms. Are mealworms or phoenix worms readily taken by frogs? Could this be fed as a staple diet to frogs willing to take them? Could it replace flies, or springtails?

Thanks -
Irish


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

people have used phoenix worms. The problem is that they're expensive and difficult to get out of the bran medium.

Currently I'm planning on breeding them over the summer to have an extra food source than just fruit flies.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

Rain_Frog said:


> people have used phoenix worms. The problem is that they're expensive and difficult to get out of the bran medium.
> 
> Currently I'm planning on breeding them over the summer to have an extra food source than just fruit flies.


Would you say that they are nutritionally equivalent to FFs? Or do they need to be kept to strictly be used as an alternative food source? Do the pdfs take the phoenix worms as readily as they take FFs? Could you pass along any info on how they are bred/cultured?

Thanks-
Irish


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

There is an old thread somewhere on food feeding about my "plan." It's still going to be tested.

The problem with phoenix worms is that soldier flies need a "flight cage" for aerial mating. They will not breed in little containers.

Therefore, they are not practical during the winter months to try and raise. However, they make an excellent food source, but probably best as a supplement since they are difficult to rear.

If you can avoid potential infestations in your vivarium, b. lateralis roach nymphs make excellent food for frogs that like bigger food items, like phyllobates, epipedobates, and mantellas.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

my vittatus and tricolors loved them my tincs leucs auratus wouldnt bother very much with them
craig


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

somecanadianguy said:


> my vittatus and tricolors loved them my tincs leucs auratus wouldnt bother very much with them
> craig


Wow, that is suprising that the larger frogs wouldnt go for them more readily. Thanks.

Irish


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

i only tried the one time , i was given a bunch as a sample to try out.i would sugest trying a few out yourselfs before making your minds up 
craig


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, I dont have any frogs as of yet, but I am trying to get an idea of what foods to feed and have them ready for when I do get frogs. My wife is not happy with the FF idea. She will go with it, but if there is something that can be substituted like Phoenix worms, so much the better. Plus, my son has 3 leopard geckos so I know that none will go to waste.

Irish


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## grumpyzooguy (Aug 31, 2007)

all5 of my leucs go crazy for the pheonix worms. ive also had luck feeding them to my vietnamese mossy frog


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Pheonix worms have had mixed success in the frog hobby, and a lot of it has to do with how the "test frogs" were fed before you offered them Pheonix worms. I've not had an issue feeding any of my PDFs pheonix worms BUT I feed a varied diet (they are used to getting food similar to pheonix worms) and bowl feed (anything twitches in the bowl and it's dinner) so unless they tasted nasty they were pretty much going to be a go. If you feed pretty much only melanogaster FFs, you'll have a harder time feeding out pheonix worms, eve the tiniest size, because they aren't used to eating something like that and will have to get used to it. It's got nothing to do with size of the frog, but food size preference... Mantellas, Phyllobates, Epipedobates, and basically anything that isn't a former Dendrobates will eat foods larger than FFs readily... the former Dendrobates all prefer smaller food items, even the larger species. That being said, I've had tincs, azureus (a well known large frog that prefers smaller food items) and auratus pound the pheonix larvae... but they were also used to eating FF larvae which aren't much different.

Pheonix worms are space intensive to breed due to the fact that they have aerial mating and thus need a large flight cage (which can cause contamination issues) so they are not bred by the average keeper, and cannot be kept in the tiny little 32oz containers for their whole life cycle like FFs.

No, they are not nutritionally equivalent to FFs, and I don't recomend them as a staple. The only feeders I'd recomend as a staple would be FFs, crickets (you'd need to raise your own), or possibly feeder roaches for some frogs. Everything else is a supplement for variation in the diet. As a general rule larvae tend to be a bit on the "too fatty" side.

Mealworms would be taken by frogs but only when they are at their youngest stages... you'd have to breed your own. Froggers usually breed rice flour beetles to get similar micro mini sized mealies from the beetles, but since they come from such tiny beetles they don't outgrow the size range we'd want to use them.

My personal feelings on pheonix worms... unless I'm going to breed them outside like Doug, they aren't worth my time and money. They are expensive, and I've got comparable food items (FF larvae, housefly larvae, silkworms, etc) that are cheaper and I'm raising in good amounts already, and unless I go through the effort to give them food, they are probably suffering from lack of nutrition (and won't grow to a larger size for other critters).

FFs tend to be a neccessary evil for PDFs. When the tanks are set up correctly and FF proofed, and you are comfortable with culturing the flies, very few are out and about, and it's not like they are flying around. Most people who visit me don't realize that they've got 20-30 cultures in sweater boxes teeming with flies, because they aren't running all over my apartment. Some tips... 1) take the time to make your tanks completely FF proof before you get the frogs and all the bugs, 2) use wingless FFs... they produce a bit less (but with a small collection this really isn't the issue people make it out to be) but they are incredibly easy to handle... you can "pour" them into containers without worrying about them hoppy and/or gliding short distances. When I handle flies, the ones that are out are always those annoying gliders :? Between those two and some practice, loose flies aren't a big deal.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

Thanks Kero. I plan on breeding crickets and adding phoenix worms to their diet as well. I just feel that i can feed all of my animals with this mixture and it will save time and money in the longrun. As well as the fact that the wife doesnt like the flies. I see it as a win win.

Thanks again -
Irish


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Most PDFs will do just fine on pinhead crickets, and for the first few years I had them that's what all mine were fed on. I mainly bred and raised geckos at the time, so I was breeding crickets to lower my cricket bill (bought adults, bred them, fed them out, fed pinheads to frogs, couple week olds to baby gex, etc). If you can manage that crix are actually a better staple for PDFs than FFs, but tend to not be used as much since the majority of their life stages can't be fed to the most common PDFs.

I'm still not sure the pheonix worms are worth the price for you... I know mealworms would be able to be used for both frogs and geckos if you make sure to harvest the young small enough to feed to the PDFs (use them instead of rice flour beetles, you can use a system similar to the schedule I've set up for RFBs to be able to harvest mealies of a certain size when you want them). Silkworms would be a good treat to for some PDFs... get eggs, hatch them out, fed out, raise them up more, feed geckos. Fly larvae wise, I either feed out FF larvae or buy some housefly larvae from grubco for the bigger eaters (like phyllobates).


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

as soon as I finish this semester, I'm going to build a little enclosure outside since I have tons of leftover PVC piping.

I don't think I can get around roaches, crickets, or termites for mantellas, but tricolors, tincs, clawed frogs, etc. should like them. 

You think dog food would smell too much? I've read that phoenix worms eat so quickly, you won't smell anything. I thought maybe a small supplement of dog food periodically placed on top of the medium (vegetable based) would be a good supplement.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I think my tricolors would like phoenix worms over termites. Ironically, my tincs and mantellas go hogwild over termites, but my tricolors never take much of an interest.

I threw some termites in their tank today and they immediately went for a 1/4" cricket when given the choice. 

It's weird because tricolors love maggots but aren't crazy about termites. If it wasn't that roaches tend to get loose in the tank, that would be their staple.

Corey, have you had much success feeding phoenix worms to mantellas? My ebenaui ignore fruit fly larvae. However, phoenix worms are significantly larger so it might make a difference.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

They took them when offered, and will also go after tiny wax worms... but my mantella don't seemed to be picky as long as it's large. I've only fed out hydei larvae just about to pupate with no issues, didn't try the melano since I feed the larvae to big eaters generally and the melano tend to be small for their tastes.


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

One of my Azureus will just watch a phoenix worm but won't eat it. The other azureus comes out of nowhere to snap up the worm before it can burrow under a leaf.

Candy


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

corey, any individual species preferences? Rich Terrell told me that his baroni and aurantiaca would eat them, but his milos would not.
(However, he says they still might have, but he didn't pay a lot of attention to the situation)


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

One thing I've realized is that it's really up to the individual frog, and I can only give general preferences that agree with how I feed my frogs... I noticed my frogs tend to eat a broader range of foods because I feed them a huge range and bowl feed (if it twitches in the bowl, they will eat it). All the mantellas I've tried it with ate them, but they were used to eating larvae at that point... I haven't worked with the species you mentioned Rich talking about. I tried them with blushings, expectata, and the sunset aff "ebenaui", and they all ate them, but they will eat just about anything.


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