# Do female tincs transport tadpoles



## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Bit of fun this one but am genuinely curious as to the replies
regards
Stu


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I have not seen this.

Richard


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> I have not seen this.
> 
> Richard


there you are Richard you have now,tell me,you study and care for alot of tincs has this been documented before? I had to clear out the front of our euro viv so she could deposit it. The water was not a great enough depth, the tad is so high up her back,but she knew exactly what she was trying to achieve and where she wanted that tad to go,the minute she had the water depth so she could get the tad low enough to actually be in the water all was well,and all the time today she has been courting our male as in the pics,what an absolute joy 
sorry pretty excited


























thanks
Stu


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## mcaiger53 (Jan 3, 2011)

pretty cool, I also have never seen this, I usually pull eggs tho. I have only seen any tincs transporting a couple times when they had eggs hidden.


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## LadyBullseye (Oct 17, 2011)

Awesome Stu! What magic do you and Shaz do to your frogs?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I have seen both males and females transporting tadpoles (sometimes at the same time!).


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for documenting this Stu. Pretty cool. I also pull my clutches, so really don't see my tincs transporting in general. I also have groups of tincs that refuse to transport and will lay several clutches in a row in the same dish without transporting. Just lazy I guess.

Take care, Richard.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

LadyBullseye said:


> Awesome Stu! What magic do you and Shaz do to your frogs?


thanks Lisa
I think we just try real hard. Lisa,we don't ever stop until every little thing that we can think of to do is done,we are also shown huge kindness by others whom have great knowledge,they go truly out of their way to help us,which is pretty awesome really,so any success we have is really down to the comeraderie and pateince shown,by those good folks,we have so much to thank them for!!!!!! .
Beyond that we just talk to them constantly  maybe a good dose of madness helps 
Stu


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

zBrinks said:


> I have seen both males and females transporting tadpoles (sometimes at the same time!).


wow Zac thats something i'd like to see,thankyou for the imput
Stu


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Thanks for documenting this Stu. Pretty cool. I also pull my clutches, so really don't see my tincs transporting in general. I also have groups of tincs that refuse to transport and will lay several clutches in a row in the same dish without transporting. Just lazy I guess.
> 
> Take care, Richard.


your welcome Richard,of note to me is the last bit of your post.As i mentioned she was courting him all day,she was clearing her site ready so she could lay the next clutch,which we have duely, found i can also now add we have,2 tadpoles that she deposited in the front water area not one, so she was very intent on clearing her hut for laying it seems,i pulled the rest as way too little water for 8 tads,but am going to leave the 2 to see how they get on
thanks again for the interest
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sounds like more aberrant behaviors due to captivity.. particularly since the females do not prepare the deposition site ahead of time.. the male guides the female to a site he has chosen not the other way around. 

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Given that the pairs are breeding in the same dish all the time, I wonder if tadpoles from a previous clutch would take the opportunity to ride on a female that was currently mating/laying a new clutch. In nature it seems highly unlikely that pairs would choose to use the exact same site twice to lay eggs,

Just a thought. Richard.


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> Sounds like more aberrant behaviors due to captivity.. particularly since the females do not prepare the deposition site ahead of time.. the male guides the female to a site he has chosen not the other way around.
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed,hope you are well! is there anything i should be concearned about,from this behaviour...does it point to something i might be doing wrong. We do get quite close to our animals in that we spend alot of time with them so they know us...they react to our voices,I've always thought that this would aliviate stress,you know that quiet calming stockmans banter,just letting them know we are around really so no sudden shocks or movement that type of thing,which i've always thought would give a shyer animal time to retreat if it wanted before opening a viv door etc,not terribly natural i guess 
thankyou for your thoughts
Stu


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Given that the pairs are breeding in the same dish all the time, I wonder if tadpoles from a previous clutch would take the opportunity to ride on a female that was currently mating/laying a new clutch. In nature it seems highly unlikely that pairs would choose to use the exact same site twice to lay eggs,
> 
> Just a thought. Richard.


They have a choice of spawning sites Richard and have used others,but this one is their favourite...most often used. honestly i don't know whether in the wild a male would have a favoured site,well not with darts anyway,our natives here,few species that there are, return, it is said to spawn in the same body of water,that they were raised.But again i couldn't confirm that to be true and it might be of no relevance whatsoever to these dartfrogs. The last spawning before this was in a different site. What really surprised me was watching her try to drop the tad,although again this observation could be intrupreted in different ways,fascinating to see anyway
as with Ed thankyou for your thoughts
regards
Stu


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> Hi Ed,hope you are well! is there anything i should be concearned about,from this behaviour...does it point to something i might be doing wrong. We do get quite close to our animals in that we spend alot of time with them so they know us...they react to our voices,I've always thought that this would aliviate stress,you know that quiet calming stockmans banter,just letting them know we are around really so no sudden shocks or movement that type of thing,which i've always thought would give a shyer animal time to retreat if it wanted before opening a viv door etc,not terribly natural i guess
> thankyou for your thoughts
> Stu


I think Richard is on the right track... In the wild, there are typically longer periods of time between clutches (since ovulation is triggered by fat availability) and the female doesn't interact with the clutch once it is deposited...so less favorable sites in an enclosure may be ignored while more favorable sites may see clutches deposited on-top of one another (since in the wild the time between clutches is greater). Since this interaction would occur (if it occurs at all) rarely in wild populations there isn't anything to indicate that there would be selection against the tadpoles attempting to use any adult tinctorius in the clutch at that time so we see behaviors break down. 
Males in the wild wouldn't lead other females to the same site as a previous clutch since the female may then engage in egg predation....which would be a direct selection against reusing the same site repeatedly. People need to keep in mind that the deposition sites are much much more limited in an enclosure than they are in the wild (and in enclosures tend to be much more "permanent" since they are often cage furnishings). Deposition sites in the wild populations (leaves for example) are going to be transitory as they will break down... 

Ed


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> I think Richard is on the right track... In the wild, there are typically longer periods of time between clutches (since ovulation is triggered by fat availability) and the female doesn't interact with the clutch once it is deposited...so less favorable sites in an enclosure may be ignored while more favorable sites may see clutches deposited on-top of one another (since in the wild the time between clutches is greater). Since this interaction would occur (if it occurs at all) rarely in wild populations there isn't anything to indicate that there would be selection against the tadpoles attempting to use any adult tinctorius in the clutch at that time so we see behaviors break down.
> Males in the wild wouldn't lead other females to the same site as a previous clutch since the female may then engage in egg predation....which would be a direct selection against reusing the same site repeatedly. People need to keep in mind that the deposition sites are much much more limited in an enclosure than they are in the wild (and in enclosures tend to be much more "permanent" since they are often cage furnishings). Deposition sites in the wild populations (leaves for example) are going to be transitory as they will break down...
> 
> Ed


So essentially not much i can do to avoid this kind of behaviour apart from maybe feed a bit less so she lays less frequently,coupled with providing more deposition sites that the male,deems suitable. Ed do we have a ball park period for how often a female tinc will spawn in the wild,during their breeding season,should we aim our feeding regime to reflect this ,if there is such a figure? I don't want them to over produce i want them to live long lives with plenty of downtime from breeding,i have read alot of posts about obese frogs/over breeding and tried as best we can to stop some of our frogs that have bred well by lessening the food,and humidity levels with some success. 
thankyou
Stu


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Stu,


I have D. tinctorius pairs that produce over a hundred froglets a year without any consequences to their health. Winter frog room temps (68 at night to 72 daytime) reduces breeding significantly. With appropriate feeding and supplementation in late Winter, the frogs are well set for the next breeding season.

You may want to consider remvoing clutches after they are laid and rearing the tads separately. With my tincs, they breed regularly, whether I have removed the existing clutches or not. So you might as well try to provide the best chances for the tads to mature (which, I believe, is outside of the viv).

Take care, Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stu&shaz said:


> So essentially not much i can do to avoid this kind of behaviour apart from maybe feed a bit less so she lays less frequently,coupled with providing more deposition sites that the male,deems suitable. Ed do we have a ball park period for how often a female tinc will spawn in the wild,during their breeding season,should we aim our feeding regime to reflect this ,if there is such a figure? I don't want them to over produce i want them to live long lives with plenty of downtime from breeding,i have read alot of posts about obese frogs/over breeding and tried as best we can to stop some of our frogs that have bred well by lessening the food,and humidity levels with some success.
> thankyou
> Stu


I think the majority of things we see when we are discussing overbreeding is that the eggs end up being provisioned less ideally which can reduce color in the froglets and/or lead to issues like SLS or short tongue syndrome. 
We don't see the same level of decline in production that we see with wild caught pumilio where animals may initially produce multiple froglets out of the water at the same time for a year or more and then decline in production until only a single froglet is what is seen from a clutch. 

Ed


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## Paul G (Feb 27, 2007)

Yup, me too.



zBrinks said:


> I have seen both males and females transporting tadpoles (sometimes at the same time!).


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Woodsman said:


> Hi Stu,
> 
> 
> I have D. tinctorius pairs that produce over a hundred froglets a year without any consequences to their health. Winter frog room temps (68 at night to 72 daytime) reduces breeding significantly. With appropriate feeding and supplementation in late Winter, the frogs are well set for the next breeding season.
> ...


thankyou for this Richard,we do actually pull most eggs,she must have laid twice in close succession as i have another batch of her offspring that hatched the next day after i took these photos,so i guess she caught us off guard. Thankyou for the thoughts especially the numbers,she is going to be very productive i can see that already,this pr have alot of tads in the water! We'll watch her,and try to slow her up a little bit later on
cheers
Stu


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## stu&shaz (Nov 19, 2009)

Ed said:


> I think the majority of things we see when we are discussing overbreeding is that the eggs end up being provisioned less ideally which can reduce color in the froglets and/or lead to issues like SLS or short tongue syndrome.
> We don't see the same level of decline in production that we see with wild caught pumilio where animals may initially produce multiple froglets out of the water at the same time for a year or more and then decline in production until only a single froglet is what is seen from a clutch.
> 
> Ed


As always thankyou for your wisdom sir,
regards
Stu


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## laar (Aug 24, 2005)

zBrinks said:


> I have seen both males and females transporting tadpoles (sometimes at the same time!).


Both of my Azureus pair transport tadpoles, left is female. I saw two times, maybe the mon love her baby too much. 



www.uforest.com.tw


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

that's an awesome shot. it's the whole family together


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