# Pertaining to laws about dart frogs...



## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

I was told dart frogs were illegal in CT...

As it turns out - they don't appear to be! They aren't "potentially dangerous" or "venomous" since they are all captive bred - and that's all the law says pertaining to reptiles and amphibians. 

Good news for us CT guys. 

Anyone interested in the CT law should read the CT Section 26-40a. (google it)

People in other states - check this out:
Summary of State Laws Relating to Private Possession of Exotic Animals

Really good info.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Sadly, that is completely subject to the interpretation of whoever may choose to confiscate your animals, or prosecute you. I wouldn't count on "But they aren't potentially dangerous, or venemous, since they are captive bred" stopping some busybody from hauling off your animals for disposal.

Plenty of people choose to live with the risk of that, and keep various reptiles/amphibians that _might_ be subject to the law in places like Connecticut, but I wouldn't delude yourself that you are home free under the law, unless there is some legal judgment or dictum from on high to that effect.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Did you get that in writing from the relevant state officials? I would be careful with that interpretation as there isn't any way for the average enforcement individual to determine which are cb and which are imported wc animals which can be purchased. 
Your argument is basically the same that people have tried with venomoid snakes only to discover that argument doesn't work. 

The NJ regs listed on that link appear to be incomplete based on a quick scan... 

Ed


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

The other thing your over looking here
"No person shall import or introduce into the state, or possess or liberate therein, any live fish, wild bird, wild mammal, reptile, amphibian or invertebrate unless such person has obtained a permit therefor from the commissioner provided nothing in this section shall be construed to require such permit for any primate species that weighs not more than fifty pounds at maturity that was imported or possessed in the state prior to October 1, 2003."

So you cant bring in anything without getting a permit from the state first with means if you can prove their not dangerous if you don't have a permit you don't have a leg to stand on. Fish and Game have allot more power then allot of people tend to relies..if they what to nail you one something they can..Thats why they have clause after clause after clause.I have hasted it out more then once with my locale fish and game.....this is why I no longer hold a permit for chameleons quit simpley put they have to much frecan power..
Brian


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## MeiKVR6 (Sep 16, 2008)

I downloaded the actual statute... (PDF form) It's definitely up to interpretation a bit - but the wording off of 26-40A says simply, "No person shall possess a potentially dangerous animal" (THIS IS FOR CT ONLY)

Simple as that.  By no means are us CT guys home free - but i'm sure they'd have to PROVE the animals are dangerous before taking them. If not - they'd be in for one big potential legal issue.

There's TONS of info available for people to read about how captive bred darts have NO toxicity. We'd have to be importing plant and insect life from out of the country, introducing it to the animals, and only then could they be even **potentially** toxic. 

As for importing into the state. (this seems to be the big issue) It seems that we really would need a permit to bring these into the state! Getting around this would be difficult - unless we can find a store somewhere selling these in CT... Which due to this silly law - isn't going to be easy.

Hrm. We'll see what I can do. I haven't gotten any PDFs yet - but if I've already gone this far - there's no reason I shouldn't at least try to keep it legal first.


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

MeiKVR6 said:


> Simple as that.  By no means are us CT guys home free - but i'm sure they'd have to PROVE the animals are dangerous before taking them. If not - they'd be in for one big potential legal issue.


 Not shore how it works in CT but in Mass thanks to governor Michael Dukakis they don't have to prove any thing to be able to take your animal they only answer to the governor and the states attitude is thier the experts so let them do their thing. My father worked with a guy who was getting into investment reptiles so he could have them when he retired as some play money..he unfortunately also has frilled dragons and panther chameleons witch we cant have up here ...when he got raided they took every thing even the stuff he could have...ow did i mention that up here they don't need a warrant to enter your home..fun...the bottom line is it probably better to not really talk about it or put that you live in CT in you profile.
Brian


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

MeiKVR6 said:


> I downloaded the actual statute... (PDF form) It's definitely up to interpretation a bit - but the wording off of 26-40A says simply, "No person shall possess a potentially dangerous animal" (THIS IS FOR CT ONLY)
> 
> Simple as that.  By no means are us CT guys home free - but i'm sure they'd have to PROVE the animals are dangerous before taking them. If not - they'd be in for one big potential legal issue.



The phrase that would hang you is right there in your quotes.. "potentially" as the state has no way to demonstrate that there is a difference between cb and wc any dart frog is potentially dangerous. 
This argument was tried a number of times back when people began legislating against venomous species and the animals were confiscated. 
If you want to test out the waters, I would suggest contacting a couple of lawyers and getting a legal opinion first, otherwise you could end up with not only your animals confiscated, court costs, fines, etc. 



MeiKVR6 said:


> There's TONS of info available for people to read about how captive bred darts have NO toxicity.


And in that tons of information, how does it tell you in a way that a lay person would understand to be able to tell cb from wc on a visual inspection? If they can't tell them apart on a visual inspection, then how can they be sure that it is not a potentially dangerous animal? 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

What it all comes down to though is that as long as your not parading your frogs around town your probably not going to have problems. Typically with things like this your not going to have any issues at all, even if the local enforcement knows of your collection. It's going to take a complaint from someone locally to get the gears in motion typically. I don't think I would worry too much about it if I were you.


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## karl47 (Sep 3, 2008)

Tim,
I've learned the hard way that it's best not to tell non-froggers what you're keeping in your house in "their town". Most just don't believe that CB darts are not poisonous and they think that I can't possibly be as responsible as the Baltimore Aquarium with keeping them safely(?) Talk about pouring cold water on my hot enthusiasm!
Worse than that, is the well published Animal Control Officer who would probably invent some reason to shut me down just to gain some more notariety.
Now I only talk about my Darts on here and at pet stores with employees I know and who are also in the hobby.
See Ya,
Karl


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

karl47 said:


> Tim,
> I've learned the hard way that it's best not to tell non-froggers what you're keeping in your house in "their town". Most just don't believe that CB darts are not poisonous and they think that I can't possibly be as responsible as the Baltimore Aquarium with keeping them safely(?) Talk about pouring cold water on my hot enthusiasm!
> Worse than that, is the well published Animal Control Officer who would probably invent some reason to shut me down just to gain some more notariety.
> Now I only talk about my Darts on here and at pet stores with employees I know and who are also in the hobby.
> ...


I've noticed the same thing with non froggers. I've got an aunt who is an animal control officer, but she has the mind set that if your not bothering anyone she's not going to bother you. Her and a coworker actually helped a guy find an escaped viper that he was keeping illegally and told him that he needed to snake proof his herp room and that if it happened again they would put the gears of justice into action. In this instance the snake never left the guys house or they would have taken action as they are trained to do. I think from talking to her that most animal officers try to use a bit of common sense and realize that most herpers of this sort use the utmost responsibility with their animals and choose to look away most times. I'm sure that there are many who don't though.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

curious. i dont see any top breeders excluding conneticut? not in their shipping terms and agreements. unless someone can point out a top dart frog breeder to me? I could be wrong. kristy


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## JJuchems (Feb 16, 2004)

I would also advise treading lightly. Illinois Dangerous Animal Act states “poisonous reptiles” are illegal to be owned. They used poisonous and not venomous so people think it is ok to have a cobra. It’s not, it is illegal.


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## iridebmx (Oct 29, 2008)

can't find anything on ohio laws .so im guessing its legal?............................


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## ahinkle (Oct 15, 2007)

This is how the site mentioned earlier summarizes the law:

"A permit is required to possess any non-domestic mammal, or any hybrids thereof of the following orders: Carnivora (Felidae – non-domestic, Canidae – non-domestic, Ursidae – bears, Mustelidae, and Hyaenidae); Artiodactyla (hoofed animals); Perissodactyla (Tapiridae and Rhinocerotidae). In addition, all animals (including those listed above and non-human primates and reptiles) must be examined by a veterinarian and be free of any contagious, infectious, epidemic, or communicable disease. No person may possess non-domestic pigs or raccoon dogs."

So far so good for the few of us in South Dakota, right?

But upon further inspection within the same site you find this sentence:

"A permit from the board is required to import nondomestic animals."

As for how my state statutes actually read is thus:

_Definition: "Animals," any mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian, or fish, except humans;
_
_40-5-8.4. Requirements for movement of nondomestic animal into state--Violation as misdemeanor. No nondomestic animal may be moved into the state unless the animal is determined to be free of contagious or infectious diseases or parasites harmful to the domestic and nondomestic animals native to South Dakota. A violation of this section is a Class 1 misdemeanor._

And this is where they can nail me up by my feet.

40-5-8.3. Authority to seize and destroy nondomestic animals--Coordination with Department of Game, Fish and Parks. The Animal Industry Board may seize and destroy any nondomestic animal that is *determined by the board to endanger the health and well-being of domestic animal populations.* 

I would advise against using the out that the frogs are for scientific purposes (i.e. zoological, research and such) as this will then (possibly) subjugate you to the IACUC (Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee) guidelines. If you think the state regulations are bad, then its a wake up call with a sledgehammer with these folks.

All and all just don't parade the poison part about. Just tell people you are keeping tropical frogs, they don't need to know they are the potentially poisonous type. 

Anyone know of any states that *Don't* have any restrictions that apply to us?

Keep you head down and keep on rocking,


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## ahinkle (Oct 15, 2007)

iridebmx said:


> can't find anything on ohio laws .so im guessing its legal?............................


No not really legal at all (the way I read it).

Check these out and good luck.

Lawriter - OAC - 901:1-17-01 General Requirements.
Lawriter - OAC - 901:1-17-02 Definitions.
Lawriter - OAC - 901:1-17-12 Non-domestic animals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kristy55303 said:


> curious. i dont see any top breeders excluding conneticut? not in their shipping terms and agreements. unless someone can point out a top dart frog breeder to me? I could be wrong. kristy


Typically most suppliers state that it is incumbent on the purchaser to know thier laws..


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ahinkle said:


> Anyone know of any states that *Don't* have any restrictions that apply to us?


New Jersey at this time only requires the state possession permit which is updated annually. Its a ten dollar fee for all animals in your collection. There are restrictions against owning venomous species without a specific permit as well as crocodilians and anacondas however last I checked you did not been a permit to own boa constrictors or several other species of herps. 

Ed


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

Ed said:


> Typically most suppliers state that it is incumbent on the purchaser to know thier laws..


clarrified good to know for those in these states thanks for clarrification. kristy


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Has to be a way to generate documentation you can keep on hand with your collection proving the animals are not a risk. Im fine with the purpose of the laws, but im not fine with 2 aspects of the issue at hand:
- what happened to innocent till proven guilty?
- Law makers and the people enforcing them are not properly trained to understand what is and is not a risk.


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## basshummper (Jan 13, 2008)

Brian Ferriera said:


> Not shore how it works in CT but in Mass thanks to governor Michael Dukakis they don't have to prove any thing to be able to take your animal they only answer to the governor and the states attitude is thier the experts so let them do their thing. My father worked with a guy who was getting into investment reptiles so he could have them when he retired as some play money..he unfortunately also has frilled dragons and panther chameleons witch we cant have up here ...when he got raided they took every thing even the stuff he could have...ow did i mention that up here they don't need a warrant to enter your home..fun...the bottom line is it probably better to not really talk about it or put that you live in CT in you profile.
> Brian


Brian, what prompted the state to raid your father's coworker's house?


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Brian Ferriera said:


> The other thing your over looking here
> "No person shall import or introduce into the state, or possess or liberate therein, any live fish, wild bird, wild mammal, reptile, amphibian or invertebrate unless such person has obtained a permit therefor from the commissioner provided nothing in this section shall be construed to require such permit for any primate species that weighs not more than fifty pounds at maturity that was imported or possessed in the state prior to October 1, 2003."
> 
> So you cant bring in anything without getting a permit from the state first with means if you can prove their not dangerous if you don't have a permit you don't have a leg to stand on. Fish and Game have allot more power then allot of people tend to relies..if they what to nail you one something they can..Thats why they have clause after clause after clause.I have hasted it out more then once with my locale fish and game.....this is why I no longer hold a permit for chameleons quit simpley put they have to much frecan power..
> Brian


Thanks Brian, I was going to point this thread ot to you.

I'd to some research and see if they actually uphold these laws, but remember, be careful.

EDIT: oops, I somehow changed threads, must have clicked a link and not noticed. I was here:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/36944-legal-keep-dart-frogs-ct.html


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