# D azureus and Rhampholeon brevicaudata (stump tail chamelon)



## Guest (Dec 18, 2004)

Hi, I recently set up a false bottom vivarium in a 20 gallon aquarium. I have since added a trio of R. brevicaudata. I have a 12" bonsai tree (twisted juniper) that the chameleons spend most of their time in. I found a great deal on an adult pair of azureus and was thinking about adding them. I've searched the forum and I know this in frowned upon by some people but I don't want to get into that. I have felt the grip of the chameleons and don't feel their claws could really damage the frogs if they happened to accidentally grab onto them. They also take pinheads which I think these large frogs should readily accept. I also am aware that the chameleons may be wild caught and harbor parasites, but they have been quarantined for a while so I am willing to risk it. 

I am wondering what the benefits of buying adult frogs vs. froglets is? I have the choice of buying 3 froglets and a 75% chance of getting a pair then selling of the oddball or buying a sexed adult pair. I'm not sure what the better option is since the adults could be any age. I was also wondering about small frogs with the chameleons. 3/4" frogs should be bigger than the chameleons head so I dont' really see a problem with them trying to eat them. I also don't think the frogs could pull them into their mouth if they tried. I do however realize if they try they could potentially ingest some toxins. 

My real question pertains mostly to whether to go with the sexed pair or the trio of froglets. I realize how opinions vary as to mixing species, but I do not intend to add anything other than these two species. I feel there is plenty of space and hiding spaces and that the chameleons spend most of their time high up in the bonsai tree. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate.


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2004)

not to be negative but the juniper will die in a vivarium setting they need a hibernation period. sorry i know it's off topic but oh well


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2004)

Are you sure? I bought it at a place that specializes in bonsai and the lady said it would be fine. She might have only been looking to make a sale, but it was only ten bucks. My parents grow a few juniper bonsais in the yard and they have been thriving for literally decades. We live in Southern California and have few seasonal changes. I also have a friend whose dad lives in Hawaii. He keeps dozens of bonsais and makes them out of all different species of trees including juniper. Hawaii really has no winter season. Will it survive until next winter so I can sit it outdoors for about 3 months then put it back into the viviarium? I buried it's pot into the substrate so it will be possible to remove it.


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

I frown upon keeping Rhampholeon species and dart frogs together for reasons that I've stated in other threads. If you do a search you'll probably be able to come up with the old posts. That being said, if you are going to do it I would advise keeping both species seperate for a while before hand so that you can monitor each animal to make sure it's healthy and so that you get the hang of what's involved with their care prior to keeping both species in one cage.

I think it's really up to you whether you choose to buy froglets or adult frogs. As long as you get well-started young frogs (3+ months) from a reliable source you probably won't run into any problems. Adult frogs are more expensive but will be larger and usually are more tolerant of a wide range of care conditions. Good luck,


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

I'm going to have to agree with the above. Junipers like well drianed soil and lots of light..and very little watering. I work at a greenhouse and would never recommend using this plant in a vivarium. They are native to rocky, sand soil, in drier and arid areas. Aso for the chameleons...I worked with chameleons for over 10 years before getting into darts later on. Just because they were in quarentine does not mean that they could not harbor a bacteria, fungal, or parasite that the frogs could not fight off. You have to remember that these guys are from completely different continents and therefor have no developed complex imunity to the others pathogens. I understand your interest in mixing but you still need to keep that in mind while contimplating spending $200-$250 on an adult pair of azureus. If your still going to mix I would say go with a juvenile trio. The R. Brev will not be able to ingest them (I doubt they will try) and the price for a trio would be a bit cheaper. Just keep an eye on things. My last recommendation is to look into other bonzai's if you want to keep with the tree for the chameleon. Sheffeleria bonzais are more tolerant of water and low light conditions....see this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3397 Good luck.
-Mike

yellowback
citronella
patricia
azureus
leucs
vents
d. pumilio bruno
d. pumilio bastimentos
d. pumilio almirante
intermedius
imitator
golden mantella


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Based upon your comments it appears you have read some of my comments.

Heres what I don't understand. My objective when I get into a hobby like this, whether it be herps, fish, etc I try and give them the best environment possible. Obviously they are there for my enjoyment, but I want them to be in the best situation possible. I also see those out there that are ignorant of care, sometimes do stupid things, no excuse but more of an excuse than knowing better and still putting these animals in an obvious sub-par setup/situation. 

Maybe your objective is completely self-serving and its just for your entertainment. I guess I just don't understand why anyone would intentially jeopardize the health of their animals. 

Set up another tank, or can this mixing idea, you WILL regret doing it. It might not be right away, but problems will occur directly related to mixing these animals.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Schism-

I’m sorry but there is no way of saying that this person is going to be 100% SURE that there are going to be problems and regrets down the road. I know of some very good breeders who mix day geckos (from Madagascar) with dart frogs (from Central and South America) and have had great success. In fact, many prominent dart breeders in Europe do that. I am by no means suggesting this person do it, but saying that mixing of species has been done with some success. You can try to curb someone away from doing this but being nasty about it isn’t the right way to go about it...just not professional. If this person MUST mix species..then they should take all precautions necessary. Sorry..just a friendly disagreement but I'm sure if you look even at some major institutions like the Baltimore aquarium..you'll see this goes on and I would hate to think that you are suggesting some of the best breeders "are doing it for their own entertainment" without the frogs well being in mind.

-Mike


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## Guest (Dec 18, 2004)

Yea that's why I didn't want to start this debate. I think a lot of the problem starts when people try to attach their human emotions to animals that obviously do not have the capacity to feel them. A frog is "happy" so long as it is healthy, well fed, etc. If frogs are breeding in these situations I would say that nobody is in any place to comment as to the "happiness" or how content these animals are over ones housed by themselves. The fact of the matter is these frogs have natural predators and encounter other animals in the wild. Bottom line! My frogs may experience health problems, but I for one doubt it. If they don't; I don't feel anybody can judge me. I also don't think anybody in this hobby is keeping the animals for anything other than exactly that, a hobby. Few people who keep exotic animals are rehabilitating them and releasing them. If you are "in it for the sake of the animals" go rescue a dog or volunteer the time you put into your darts at a shelter or rehabilitation center. 

Unless you have extensive knowledge in animal behavior; then you are not qualified to tell me how my frogs are "going through hell" although they appear happy. Or that they are "constantly living in fear".


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Going through hell? Constantly living in fear? where did that come from? 
They might not be living in fear, just possibly living with a belly full of worms parasitic worms. 

'in it for the sake of the animals', no I'm not a conservationist, nor is probably anyone on this board with respect to dart frogs. Did I ever elude to that? nope actually the opposite. 

Since you are obviously in it for strictly entertainment value why don't you try saltwater for your water, that would be interesting.... Maybe try adding a water dragon, it shouldn't acknowledge the frogs as food, after all they are from different continents. Maybe try a desert setup for your frogs, but be sure you get them as adults, their much more adaptable. 

On a more serious note, when you get your frogs, obviously you will, give 'em each a four leaf clover for me. Maybe plant some in the tank, they are going to need some luck.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "Yea that's why I didn't want to start this debate. I think a lot of the problem starts when people try to attach their human emotions to animals that obviously do not have the capacity to feel them. A frog is "happy" so long as it is healthy, well fed, etc. If frogs are breeding in these situations I would say that nobody is in any place to comment as to the "happiness" or how content these animals are over ones housed by themselves."

If you think this is inappropriate then why were you the person to attach human emotion descriptions to frogs when there had been no mention of it in the earlier posts? 
Anyway, reproduction has nothing to do with (to use your phrase) "happiness" of the animal. Most reproductive cues are hardwired into the responding amphibian once minimal physiological needs are met. The "happiness" of the animal is a moot point when this occurs as reproduction will occur. A better discussion will actually reference negative stressors and their potential effects on reproduction but as long as the stressor is constant and does not kill the animal immediatly then the animal adapts and continues on with life. This does not mean that the animal is happy, instead it means that the trigger for that stressor has become elevated. 

snip " I also don't think anybody in this hobby is keeping the animals for anything other than exactly that, a hobby."

What about those of us, where part of our employment is in keeping the frogs? This is an inappropriate absolutist statement. 


snip "Unless you have extensive knowledge in animal behavior; then you are not qualified to tell me how my frogs are "going through hell" although they appear happy. Or that they are "constantly living in fear"."

Again you are the first person (in the entire thread) to attach an emotional value judgement to this topic. 

Why would a person need to have extensive knowledge in animal behavior to be qualified as opposed to experience and knowledge in dart frog behavior to be able to answer this question. You seemed awful quick to jump to an attack on an issue that had not been referenced in any of the above thread. Are you trying to begin a confilict? 

Ed


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Ed said:


> Why would a person need to have extensive knowledge in animal behavior to be qualified as opposed to experience and knowledge in dart frog behavior to be able to answer this question. You seemed awful quick to jump to an attack on an issue that had not been referenced in any of the above thread. Are you trying to begin a confilict?
> 
> Ed


I don't think he's trying to start a conflict as much as he is trying to justify doiing something he knows is completely wrong. 

He also may be setting himself up with an excuse for his own conscious when he runs into the exact problems everyone warns him of. 

I did what he is planning on doing, not exactly but close enough with a reeftank. This was about 5 years ago, when I thought I knew enough and didn't want to listen to those with more experience than myself. I was as sure as I could be that everything would be fine, although I was warned not to put that fish in that type of tank, but of course the fish slowly dwindled away. He probably has slightly better odds than I did, but research is truly invaluable when it comes to situations and planning like this. You can hear from 50 different sources that it won't work, but you _see the light_ and know it will work. Then your hear about someones success with a day gecko, and whuala; its doable, when geckos and chameleons are well as different (almost) as dart frogs and chameleons. 

Unfortunately when it comes to people like this, this is a hobby and people will do what they will. Its just too bad it is at the expense of these awesome animals. 
It reminds me of those idiots that buy baby anacondas or salcutta tortoises just so they can see how large and cool they'll be, meanwhile they end up outgrowing their cages and either left in the mobile home the person was renting or donated to a zoo. Its purely entertainment, with zero regard for the animals.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

Wow, im glad to know that therre ARE people out there as passionate about not mixing as I. 
I am completely and totally against the idea for obvious reasons, that even the most simple minded person could see (even though they may completely ignore the fact). 
If you think about the people who mix darts with phelsuma, its always in a very large (tall) enclosure with a wide temperature range from the top to bottom, and a diverse landscape (not a 20 gallon with a bonsai) :lol: . The darts are usually a terrestrial dart (tinctorious), so they stay closer to the bottom where it is cooler, whereas the day gecko stays at the top where it is warmer. 
Even in cases such as these i still think mixing is wrong.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

Well I know Ed and I aren't against mixing, but only certain things and under certain conditions. I am very glad he posted as I was writing as similar one, but his was more elequent than mine was going to be. This really has been discussed in more than adequate amounts in the past, so there's no need to rehash it.
j


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Im not really against mixing either. I generally stick to mixing things like plants and soil, or frog tongues and fruit flies. :lol:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I have had long term (measured in years) success with mixed exhibits but then I tend to pay attention to what I am placing with what. In general I am against mixing that is not genrally zoogeographically correct. I have had excellant success for example with adult Emerald Tree Boas (Corallus caninus) with red eye tree frogs (to the point the RETF died of old age), I have also had excellant success with Atelopus zeteki with Abronia graminea. 

I have some other examples but that is for another time. Anytime I see a post where someone is responding to a nonexistant attack I automatically assume there is a hidden agenda. 

Ed


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

I didn’t really have time to read all the posts so if I am restating what others have already said I do apologize. 

Rhampholeons will die in a moist environment with out proper ventilation. I kept them for several years and bred many generations of offspring. You might be able to keep them for 6 months to a year under these moist conditions but they will not thrive and will eventually die. I made this mistake several years ago when I first started keeping them and eventually lost all of my collection (including some Brookesia now listed as CITES1). You need to keep them pretty dry with a light daily misting. Also these are most probably coming in WC so I highly recommend an extended quarantine period. All most all of mine were infected with some nasty little parasites. 

I'm all about keeping several species of animal together and Rhampholeon are very rewarding to work with but why would you want to mix chameleons from Africa with frogs from South America? You should probably try to mix something that, at least, comes from the same continent. Just my two cents.

-Blake


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

When I was littler, I usto mix things like snakes and toads, foolish little boy I was. You might think the frog was the one to get eaten, well... your right, but the bad thing is the frog released its toxins and the snake got sick... and didnt look like living so I let it go. Dont worry, it wasn't a PDF. :lol: Ok, heres a question that didn't get answered in the 75 G post, I dont think anyone knew, but here it is. Can I keep stump tailed chamelions and dendrobates auratus in a 75 gallon terrarium, and will the mixing affect the frogs breeding habits and fedding? Also, will the chamelions eat the fruitflies? Will I have to feed the chamelions waxworms? If so, where can I purchase waxworms? Ok, please tell me if I mis-spelled anything wrong so I can learn from the errors of my bad spelling and grammer ways. Thanks for the help.  

Paul


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

FrogKid said:


> When I was littler, I usto mix things like snakes and toads, foolish little boy I was. You might think the frog was the one to get eaten, well... your right, but the bad thing is the frog released its toxins and the snake got sick... and didnt look like living so I let it go. Dont worry, it wasn't a PDF. :lol: Ok, heres a question that didn't get answered in the 75 G post, I dont think anyone knew, but here it is. Can I keep stump tailed chamelions and dendrobates auratus in a 75 gallon terrarium, and will the mixing affect the frogs breeding habits and fedding? Also, will the chamelions eat the fruitflies? Will I have to feed the chamelions waxworms? If so, where can I purchase waxworms? Ok, please tell me if I mis-spelled anything wrong so I can learn from the errors of my bad spelling and grammer ways. Thanks for the help.
> 
> Paul


Put it this way, tank size is not really the issue. It will help a little, but 95% of this post applies if it were a 75 gallon.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

I have an airpump going into my vivarium to provide air for my ephiphytes and chameleons. I am also wondering how many of these parasites are species specific and how many have been known to be transimitted to dart frogs?


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

That’s hard to tell. I know a few of the nematodes that come in with rhampholeon could transfer to your frogs, I am sure that some bacterial infections could as well. I am going to have to agree with Blake that your Rhampholeon would probably suffer more adverse effects from the moist environment. When a field study was conducted around 1998 in Tanzinia..most of the rhampholeon collected were found in small shrubs, vines, and dry leaf litter on the forest floor. They are a species that enjoys misting everyday, but need to air out. Constant moisture could certainly cause upper respiratory problems and bacterial/fungal infections in this species (I housed all my chameleons in screened in enclosure for better air movement). Brookesia have even more arid requirements than rhampholeon. The risk of mixing these guys and having a problem is there and that is what I tried to post in my previous statement. It’s a bit annoying to hear people sit on the forum and cast stones at others. I don’t mix species because I am afraid of the adverse effects. Don't sit hear and call people thoughtless and selfish and make a huge ordeal...The best way to try and prevent mixing of species is to further educate a person contemplating to do this on the possible problems mixing species might cause. To debate an animals "happiness" when it comes to mixing..I don't think it’s realistic to think that these frogs or rhampholeon don't come into contact with any other species in the wild (certainly not each other). But when your placing either of these species in close proximity to another in an enclosed environment, you should consider all possibilities before moving forward. It isn’t your responsibility as a frog lover/breeder/expert to label and yell at others...educate them on the possible problems of doing this your bound to get a better response.

-Mike


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Some types of parasites are species specific however many parasites can infect and live quite well in hosts other than the targeted host. (This can occur in humans as well which is why personal hygiene is pretty important whern working around herps). When a parasite infects the wrong host there are a several possible outcomes (I'm using human examples here as its easier for me to think of them when I first wake up). 
1) the parasite dies in the larval stages (example larval migrans in humans, the parasite cannot complete the infection because it lacks the enzyme necessary to complete pentration of the tissues)
2) it infects the wrong host, completed development but cannot reproduce (reptile/amphibian host specific pentastomids infecting in humans)
3) the parasite encysts in the body tissues in the non-targeted host and waits for the new host to die/be consumed by a suitable host (see sparganosis in humans). 
4) the parasite completes its life cycle in the new host (example cat tapeworms in people). 

Ed


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

Ohh. Then I would probably just keep my dendrobates in the 75 gallon and keep the Chamelions in the 20 gallon. That is, if i get chamelions. 
Well, ill think about it. Thanks for the help.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

troymcclure said:


> I have an airpump going into my vivarium to provide air for my ephiphytes and chameleons. I am also wondering how many of these parasites are species specific and how many have been known to be transimitted to dart frogs?


An air pump, if it is an aquarium air pump won't do the trick for ventelation for the chameleons. Although many people keep leaf chameleons in aquariums with moderate levels of success they do need a lot of ventelation. They really should be kept in screen cages. 
You might be ok with a fan adding ventelation, but this will most likely cause humidity problems.


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## TimsViv (Feb 16, 2004)

This may not be the popular opinion of the forum, but I think R. brevicaudatus is a good canidate to mix with dart frogs in a large vivarium. 

Size wise, they should be compatable with any of the frogs from the Tinctorius group.

Their temperature range is from 74 to 82, so you could meet the needs of both the frogs and the Stump Tail Chameleons if you kept the vivarium between 72 to 78.

And unlike most Chameleons, R. brevicaudatus require high humidity - 80 to 100%. Stump Tail Chameleons will thrive in a vivarium set up.

I think to be successful you would need a large vivarium and would have to provide specific niches for the Chameleons. They would, also, need some UV lighting. I would provide the chameleons with one or more bonsi ficus trees. For the most part they will occupy the trees, except for feeding and egg laying.

So to answer your question, yes, I believe that you can succesfully house R. brevicaudatus and D. azureus together. As for getting adults or juvinile frogs, I would base that decision on the current size of your chameleons. 

My biggest concern would be the parasite load. I have considered this combination as well, but have been unable to locate good captive bred Stump Tails.

Just my opinion.
Tim


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

Thanks Tim. That solves my problim, cause I have Cobalt tincs. Would a 50 gallon suffice for the chamelions?

Paul


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Did you miss the 20 gallon part of the equation? How about the proper ventelation within a high humidity environment? 

You say Most chameleons don't need a high humidity environment. This is a pretty bold statement. If I were to say most, it would without a doubt be that most need high humidity. There are a number of species that don't, some from lower elevations in Africa, and those in europe, however most species require very high humidity. We see more of the low humidity species in the hobby, why? They are easier to maintain for the most part. 

When you look at care sheets it sounds very doable, but in reality your just not very likely to succeed.


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

Well, some people know what there doing. I dont know what you mean 20 gallon equation. I cant have the 20 gallon now cause i have 2 tanks, 75 and 50, and i cant have 3 tanks, at least not in the house. Ohh, will the stump tail chamelions eat fruitflies, or will i have to supplement the chamelions with other food sources? 
Paul


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Tim, 

From my personal experience, I must disagree with you humidity requirements for brevicaudata. It is possible that in the wild they humidity reaches 80-100% but we are talking about keeping them in glass fish tanks. I guarantee that if these humidity levels are kept your chameleons will die within a very short time. It is just not possible to keep this high level of humidity and proper ventilation in an indoor enclosure. Maybe if you live in Florida and have screened in enclosures that are out door, these levels of humidity could be reached and your chameleons would thrive.


Paul, 

You can believe whomever you want. These chameleons are really cheep so if you kill off a few, I guess you can just buy some more. I personally believe that all animals that I care for should be kept under optimal conditions and I think that you would be wise to listen to those of us who have been down the path that you are planning to take. These are being taken from the wild and possibly being over collected. Who knows how long these populations can sustain losing this number of animals to the pet trade and to me every animal is priceless. Just think about what you are really trying to accomplish and if it is really worth risking the health of your animals because you think that it would look cool to keep two species form different ecosystems together, then by all means go right ahead.

Best regards,
Blake


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## Guest (Dec 19, 2004)

Lots of pygmy chameleons sites will tell you that they thrive in vivariums. Also the fish pumps move more air than you think, especially the large ones that use two tubes. I know lots of tarantula keepers that use them to ventilate their arboreals and they work great. A muffin fan is waaaay overkill. Those things would replace all the air in the enclosure in a matter of seconds.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

The point of ventelation for chameleons is not to get them oxygen, its to prevent stagnation which causes resperatory infections. A fan is hardly overkill, your are trying to prevent stagnant pockets of air. If you don't use a screen enclosure you need overkill to prevent stagnation. 

This is PRECISELY why chameleons are best kept in screen cages. You don't need fans to blow dry/fresh air in the cage. In a glass cube you DO. 


I bred 15 or so species of chameleons, I've kept hundreds if not thousands of them, I have a definite knowledge of their requirements. Chameleons ARE extremely tolerant and resiliant for a time. They will act and look healthy under many circumstances, just to 'suddenly' die although the problems have existed for months. I never did, never would, and never will think about keeping ANY species of chameleon in a vivarium, it just doesn't provide enough ventelation. 
Yes there are lots of sites out there that tell you that vivariums are ok, there are also a lot of sites that tell you anacondas can be kept in aquariums. In reality a half grown snake needs a bedroom, not a tank. Its easy to put up a website with little to no knowledge, and its even easier when you write a care sheet that allows you to SELL more animals. 
Try talking to a breeder of that species, I'm sure there are a few out there now, ask them how they cage that animal.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

LOL, I've read many brookesia sites from hobbyists who do NOT sell their animals! They all agree that they can be kept in vivariums. These people have been keeping them for years. Get off of your high horse man. I do know what ventilation is for. Did you miss the part about keeping arboreal tarantula species? Do you honestly think that I thought they needed ventilation for oxygen?!? I keep over 20 species of tarantulas on moist peat moss and have NEVER had a mold problem. A muffin fan would dry the hell out of a vivarium and is MAJOR overkill. A strong aquarium air pump will move PLENTY of air.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/s ... kesia.html

tell me that is not an excellent site :roll:


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

Since chameleons and tarantulas are so similar you obviously know MUCH MUCH MUCH more than I. 

In three months when you have dead chameleons, and frogs read this thread again, you'll figure out how to do it right.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

Yea so I assume you also think the chameleon news article is BS as well :roll: :roll: :roll: 

I never said anything about tarantulas and chameleons being the same. I was stating that I obviously know the purpose of proper ventilation and that is not to provide oxygen.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

There are some OBVIOUS errors and innaccuracies in that article. 

Of course its always a good idea to keep chameleons in an outdoor setup in a hot and dry environment, of course if you add a mister. :roll: :roll: 

Its a snazzy site, pretty pictures, lots of words, its correct. 


This thread is closed for me. You have little to no regard for your animals, I have no regard for you. You'll learn the hard way, to bad its at the expense of awesome animals. 


Good day


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

Like I said the aquarium pump will move a lot of air. If new air is coming in where do you think the old air is going? Chilling and becoming stagnant as the aquarium expands and blows up like a balloon???


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## dvknight (Feb 20, 2004)

I would just like to point out that "vivarium" is a very loose term. There are people keeping corn snakes on newspaper with a stick and a bowl of water that consider the enclosure to be a vivarium. 

Granted, I know *zero * regarding chameleons, but every picture in that article shows them climbing on open, airy vegetation.

The author suggests keeping 5 different Malagasy species with these animals. Maybe add a lemur or two while you are at it?

Rarely do I post, but using this obviously mis-informed article as a evidence of your cause does not make sense.

Regards,

David


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

Chameleon news is a good site and they point out in many other articles the benefits of keeping chameleons in screen enclosures. Pygmy chameleons have different requirements than many other chameleons.


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## bwood1979 (Apr 27, 2004)

Troy- I thought that we were talking about Rhampholeon. The article that you provided a link to shows the requirements for Brookesia. Since you seem to have a vast knowledge of this subject then I must assume that you are aware of the fact that all Brookesia species require an estivation period with an extreme drop humidity, as well as temperature. This would of course, make them unsuitable to house with dendrobates for an extended period of time. 

If you are intent on mixing darts with chameleons, you might want to consider using a low speed computer fan for ventilation. I do believe that you will still run into problems but give it a try. I don't think that anyone here is trying to discount your intelligence or knowledge of animal husbandry. We are all just trying to help you out. If you weren’t so defensive, you might learn a thing or two.

I would suggest some small species of anolis or phelsuma for a large "vivarium", both of these would be a better alternative.

Sorry for all of the typos, I'm really tired and can't be bothered to proof read.

-Blake


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

I am talking about Rhampholeon but they can generally be housed the same as Brookesia. Muffin fans move a LOT of air and also require a power supply. I have one that can be hooked directly to a lamp cord, but that is 4" and moves waaaay too much air for a vivarium. I put the air pump hoses leading right into the area that they chameleons hang out and it moves more air than you might think. I may end up moving them out of the viarium in the future, but for now I'm going to give it a try.


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

If there's a possiblity that problems might occur (for either or both species), why risk it? Whether you're close to your animals or not, they both represent a significant monentary value. If you can afford to buy the dart frogs, is it really such a stretch to buy a seperate enclosure? It might cost a bit more, but if you're dead-set on mixing species, well, then you've got two tanks where you can mix two different sets of animals with more similar care.

Personally, coming from the "mixing is a terrible idea" in caudates, I was surprised to hear that some non-hybridizing dart species could be kept together. Given the beauty of dart frog tanks, isn't that all the mixing anyone really needs to do?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just a couple of questions and comments. How long do you expect the muffin fan to be on when it is used to turn the air over? In the systems I have seen not only is it only on for a few minutes (just long enough to turn over the air) but it is usually set to a rheostat and the rate of fan's output is decreased. This way the rate of turn over controlled. If you think tarantulas are sensitive to drying out amphibians in general are far more sensitive so your argument about this being overkill is a little specious. 

In moist or wet terraria there is some need to turn over for oxygen as there are anecdotal incidences of carbon dioxide buildup from the bacterial action in the substrates of the enclosures and the respiration of the plants at night. 

You state that a muffin fan needs a power source and the manner in which you state it seems to make it a problem but then doesn't any airpump need a power source? See above for my comments on controlling the air flow from the fan. 

Just a comment on the manner in which you handled the discussion. You came onto the board and posted a question looking for a specific answer. When you did not get the answer youwanted you then went on the attack on topics that were not part of the thread until you made them part of the thread. When that was pointed out you then continued to argue your point in a manner that was gives the appearence that you were trying to bring people around to your point of view. You could have saved everyone a lot of aggrevation by simply saying thank you for the advice but I think I'll try it anyway as opposed to trying to show us all how well researched you are with regards to the specific animals. 

Ed


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

A muffin fan needs a DC power source. Those run about 10 bucks. Then you have your muffin fan that runs between 15-25. Add in your 20 dollar digital timer and you've got a 45 dollar add on. This is more than a new enclosure. I use a muffin fan on my tarantula cabinet to turn the air over in there. I run it for 5 minutes every four hours. The aquarium pump is constantly drawing in air. As this air moves in old air moves out. Granted it is slow, but if it's constant combined with the O2 provided from the plants and moss I would think it should do a decent job.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

Totally unrelated to the discussion, but are these chameleons (Brookesia and Rhampholeon bred often or commonly available? I remember reading an article on them on the vivaria site a few years ago, but never really heard much about them until this discussion again.
j


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Glad I found this threwad now, and not early, because I've been known to get into arguments over mixing species.

Just one question for all of the "animal mixers":

*Why would you mix/want to mix animals together in the same tank?*

The only reasons I can see are:
1) for your enjoyment (which means putting your needs before the animal's)
2)you don't have enough tnaks for all of your animals and want to join (you shouldn't have so many animals if can't provide terrariums for each
3) you HEARD it works and want to try it yourself, to prove others wrong. (using the animals to prove a point in your favor is not right)

I think that all species mixing is not right. No reason to do it.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

Ok, it seems to me the arguments are you simply trying to clear your conscience in advance of anything negative that might happen as a result of what you want to attempt. If you really cared about the animals and you really want a nice display to look at with them, then they should be kept separate. You seem to be all about spending all that money on the frogs, but when buying extra equipment comes into play you complain it costs too much. 
"


> A muffin fan needs a DC power source. Those run about 10 bucks. Then you have your muffin fan that runs between 15-25. Add in your 20 dollar digital timer and you've got a 45 dollar add on. This is more than a new enclosure.


Most people on this forum spend hundreds of dollars to get everything set up just the way they want it, from $30.00 for a peice of wood to that custom made vivarium that costs around $150.00 to the misting system that runs about $70.00. They know that if you do it right that you'll never have to do it again, and that their frogs will live a long life in the vivarium. They don't complain about a fan costing $25.00, that's the least of their costs involved.
I really feel that you are just arguing to get the answers you want so that when it does happen you can blame someone else for giving you faulty advice.
I've seen that tactic used so many times and nearly every time the person has come back whining when their animal died due to improper care or mixing or whatever hair brained scheme they wanted to try.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Derek
Belief statements are belief statements and your whole post is predicated on a belief statement as a prelude to an argument. 
Until/unless you are willing to accept other arguments, then a belief statement precludes reaching an agreement or consensus. 

All three of your bullet points are predicated on the assumption that all mixing is detrimental to the animals involved. This is an incorrect assumption. 
It is possible to choose animals within correct zoogeograhic boundries that do not place negative stressors upon one another. 
For example at work I have had Bombina in with Cynops cyanureus for the last 9 years. I still have all of the original adults. Another example is that I had auratus in with Eyelash vipers (B. schlegeli) for more than 10 years at one point without losing an auratus. This has been done at other institutions for longer periods of time. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Regarding the muffin fan, if you had specified that you were too cheap to use a muffing fan set-up then there would have been a lot less recommendations for its use. 

I am done with discussing the troll's issues as I think I made my point in the last stament where I addressed his behavior. 

Ed


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> For example at work I have had Bombina in with Cynops cyanureus for the last 9 years. I still have all of the original adults. Another example is that I had auratus in with Eyelash vipers (B. schlegeli) for more than 10 years at one point without losing an auratus. This has been done at other institutions for longer periods of time.
> 
> Ed


Can you provide your reasoning behind doing this?


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

LOL @ too cheap. I spent nearly 200 on my vivarium and another 120 on my frogs. I was making the point that it would not be COST EFFICIENT to setup a muffin fan! I just bought an enclosure for the chameleons for 15 bucks. It's screen on two of the sides and on the top and glass on the other two sides and the bottom. This should be great for holding humidity and ventilation. Now I can go buy some moss, ficus, etc. etc. with the other 35 that it would have cost me to put in a muffin fan! Plus I'll have two awesome looking enclosures. 

I'll also be purchasing a group of cintronellas and setting up another viv for them. Not to mention my on going obsession with tarantulas. If you knew anything about me you would know I am far from cheap when it comes to my animals. I did not need to install a muffin fan on my tarantula cabinet or a heating element/thermostat. That ran me an extra 75 bucks where as most keepers keep their animals at room temps with air holes for ventilation.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

funny how you guys call me the troll. here are two more care sheets for R brevicaudatus for you pots calling the kettle black

http://www.adcham.com/html/taxonomy/spe ... datus.html

http://www.martinsreptiles.co.uk/ukcham ... ilcare.htm

I'd like to see ones that say it's detrimental to the health of the chameleons to have keep them this way. Either way I still have an enclosure now that is screen on three sides.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They are exhibits covering various biogeographical zones.

Another example, Pseduobranchus a. axantha, Notopthalmus v. louisianensis and Hyla squirella. That one was only up for a mere six years before we decided to go in a different direction. 

Is that sufficient justification........

You have yet to demonstrate any reasonable problem with the idea of well thought out zoogeographically correct multispecies exhibits other than your belief statements from the original post yet you ask me to justfy why I had multiple species enclosures. 


Ed


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Not trying to start an argument, just trying to see the other side of the story.

About your multi species tanks. Why would you do it? To prove that they can be kept in same tank? People know that they are in the same area in the wild. In the wild, the area is much larger than any terrarium that can be created. Even a large zoo exhibit cannot compare to the actual space that an animal occupies in it's niche. By craming the animals together in smaller habitats, it will stress the animals out. They aren't going to go hug another species, they will stay away from them, therefore limiting their already limited space int he terrarium.

As far as the mix with the newt, dwarf siren, and tree frog, that's possible. People mix darts with tetras, that's comparable to tree frog and siren. They occupy different areas of the terrarium. But animals that occupy the same area shouldn't be mixed in my opinion.

I'm listening to your side of the mixing issue, but have not heard anythoing as to why it makes sense. If it's not broke, don't fix it. If you don't HAVE to mix them, then why?

Just my two cents.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2004)

I mix fruitflys with my dart frogs regularly I find it to be extremely beneficial (well for the frogs). I also mix springtails and wood lice, tends to be beneficial for the frogs and the vivarium. 

-Tad


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The answer for why was in my last response 
snip "They are exhibits covering various biogeographical zones."

There is nothing about having to prove anything in the design and maintence of the exhibits. 

I hate to correct an impression in your last post but the average member of the public does not know the animals live in the same regions/areas much less what the animals are. 

Area inhabited/area needed (territorial, feeding etc) and area actually used are very different in wild and captive situations. 
Let us use a red back salamander which is a highly territorial salamander and readily defends both resources and territory as an example. In the wild this salamander may live with a member of the opposite sex in an area that ranges greater than a square meter. However this highly territorial species can be readily maintained for years in a plastic shoebox. In fact if there are suitable hides placed on opposite ends of the shoebox, two pairs will happily live in these conditons for a decade or more. 
When arguing spatial requirements, comparisions between wild and captive animals are usually invalid as they fail to take into account that the amount of space "needed to support" the animal is less in captivity as the resource requirements are being met (there are some exceptions but this is much more of a rule than most people believe). Breeding sites, food availablilty and even mates are all maintained at artificial densities decreasing the spatial usages of the animal. The species in question usually only needs that much space in the wild to meet its minimal requirements, in captivity as these needs are met the amount of space required decreases.
When you say cramming the animals into a smaller space will stress them out, are you still referring to amphibians and what size space are you referring to? I would say that this statement is correct with respect to say placing 20 RETFs in a 1 gallon jar, I would say that this is not correct when referring to placing 20 RETFs in 55 gallon tank. Both spaces are significantly less than the "range" occupied by one RETF in the wild, yet in the second example, the frogs will not only breed (which is not always good indicator of a successful set-up) but will live to a maximal lifespan (assuming good husbandry practices are followed).

snip " If it's not broke, don't fix it." 
I can say the same thing with regard to multispecies exhibits. If it works then why not? 



Ed


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Take a human being. We live in a large area, but lets just say our city. This will be like the territory of your salamander. The salamander is territorial over it's area, like people are of their house. Most of us live with a member of the opposite sex as well. A person can live in a single room for their whole life. Even with a partner and another pair. Are they comfortable? Depends. Now throw in another species. I'm not sure of a god example of a species that's not really harmful, but about same size. How about a small cow? Can you live with a cow? Sure. Would you like living with a cow? Depending on the person, but majority no. Why wouldn't you? You would occupy same space (here in kansas anyways), and you are around same size, both mammals, etc. See what I'm trying to say?

20 red-eyed treefrogs in a 55 gallon is ridiculous. That's cramped space.



> snip " If it's not broke, don't fix it."
> I can say the same thing with regard to multispecies exhibits. If it works then why not?


How did someobdy come about finding that 2 or more animals can be placed with each other? Experimentation. The animal's well being is sacrificed to see if it can live with another animal? Humans and tigers, nope that doesn't work, so let's try....bears. Nope, doesn't work. And finally the cow, yep it works, they must be able to live together, and be just fine...


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

this thread is getting to be a little ridiculous, and kinda reminds me of the stuff that happens on kingsnake. 

anyways, my personal opinion is that mixing species is for the most part, needless. In a worse case scenario, the species kill each other (whether directly, through stress, or differing requirements). and in a best case scenario they both live long lives, continue to breed etc. The best case scenario can be achieved without mixing two species, so what is the point? I believe this thread was started because the person who started it is only allowed to have two tanks in his house. In that case, I believe that it is best to err on the side of caution, and not sacrifice animal's comfort and health just to get another species of pet. 

I agree that a mixed species would be very cool, but there are just too many possible problems for it to be plausible, unless one has the resources to create a large well planted tank that can suit the specific needs of every inhabitant.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually with the Plethodon cinereus, this is observed in the wild as resources become more abundent territorial requirements shrink (and if the resources are sufficient the space defended becomes the sheltering rock). This reduction in spatial requirements applies equally among all of the amphibian models I am aware of.. Do you know of any exceptions to the rule in amphibians? 

The mammalian example you cited is inappropriate as you predicate it based on your feelings. Anthropomorphism have no place in this discussion. 
For a person to be the same general size of a cow they must mass between 2.5 and 5 times as much on average to be equivalent. Again, the spatial requirements from your example are extreme to the point where they have no value in the argument. 

On what do you base 20 RETFs in 55 gallon is ridiculous? Is there some nebulous inch of frog per gallon of tank rule like that which has been passed around for years in the pet trade (according to that rule, a ten inch oscar requires the same amount of space 10 one inch tetras require. Which produces more waste? ) This is a value judgement without support. 

You are aware that a 55 gallon tank (48 x 12 x 18) yields a little over 10,000 cubic inches of space right? This is about 500 cubic inches per frog.... But wait you say, not all of that space has things the frogs can use.
Okays lets look at the total surface area excluding the bottom for the frogs this giuves us a total of 2160 square inches for the frogs to use. Which divided among 20 frogs gives each frog its own 108 square inches to use as it sees fit. (This does not take into account the bottom nor any decorations/plants which will significantly increase the available surface area). 
I think when the amount of space provided by a 55 gallon tank is looked at objectively, the numbers indicate that it is more than sufficient for 20 RETFs. 

How do you know that the animal's well being was sacrificed? If the study was based on territorial requirements and the animals were seperated when actual aggression occured then how was the animal's well being sacrificed? 
Once again, you use inappropriate examples. Do you know of any amphibian that has the same territorial requirements as humans, tigers and bears? Do you have any citations to back that analogy up? If not please stick to the topic at hand. 

You have not adequately addressed any of my points in the previous post as you have strayed into tangential areas. Can you address the disparity in spatial resource needs between captive and wild animals? 
On a final note you keep throwing around the following statment "the animal's well being". This is an inexact statement, please define it. I have referred to negative stressors for which the definition can be looked up (Try The Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles for a good definition). 

Ed


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

Bottom line: Mixing species isn't right. It's unecessary and should be avoided. If you wish to continue this, reply to the PM.

As far the the 55 gallon aquaroium goes, yes I disagree. I don't care about inches. Inches don't matter. I've spent years on treefrog forums and have kept them for years. A pair or trio of red-eyes does well in a 20 gallon tank. Therefore 4-6 in a 40, and around 7-9 in a 55 gallon. You are saying that each frog gets 2.75 gallons each. *That's ridiculous*. Look at what everyone recomends for adult dart frogs. 5 gallons eahc. Red-eyes are atleast double in size and twice as active. Putting that many frogs in a tank that size is something that I'd expect from someone jsut starting out in frog keeping to imagine. Not a person who works at a zoo.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

kinetic said:


> I believe this thread was started because the person who started it is only allowed to have two tanks in his house. In that case, I believe that it is best to err on the side of caution, and not sacrifice animal's comfort and health just to get another species of pet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

oh wow, big error on my part. I thought this thread was started by frogkid.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Just curious what the number of herps you keep has to do with anything? If you can supply the space for them, why sacrifice another poor animal?

Ryan


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

Ryan said:


> Just curious what the number of herps you keep has to do with anything? If you can supply the space for them, why sacrifice another poor animal?
> 
> Ryan


Did you even read the thread? He posted that he thought I could only keep 2 tanks in my house. The number of "herps" (since when did birds, fish, and arachnids become included in this catergory?) I keep shows that I obviously have well over 2 tanks in my house. Once again I think you too missed that I now have a different enclosure for the chameleons.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

Yes, he has decided to keep them separate. No more arguing people. This thread has been beaten to death now. Time to lock it up and throw away the key mods.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

> Schism:
> "It reminds me of those idiots that buy baby anacondas or salcutta tortoises just so they can see how large and cool they'll be, meanwhile they end up outgrowing their cages and either left in the mobile home the person was renting or donated to a zoo. "





> troymcclure
> "Uh I have two adult columbian red tail boas, 30 tarantulas, a pair of sandfire bearded dragons, a green wing macaw, two colonies of roaches, black widows, love birds, parrotlets, a 14" sulcatta tortoise a siberian husky a 120 gallon aqurarium and the list goes on."


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

Ok, I believe in what seems the best for my chamilions and frogs. I certainly might accidentially kill 1 or 2, but my enclosure is as the habitat of Madagascar's lowland forests. I dont know how the chamilions are, but I will NOT try to buy wc things anymore. I was collecting a ton of caudata when I was 11 and younger, about 10 overall were living throught the past 1/2 year, and I still have one today, its a 2 lined salamander that was in a piece of wood in my pdf tank, yesterday I tried to grab it( in nightime ) but its fast reflexes made it literally jump away from my hands. As for the chamilion tanks, I have allot of small twigs that are the size of pencils all over the tank. Sadly, my fogger broke, so less humidity has occured, and my mosses are not thriving as great as they were in the past. At least I still have some moss growing on the glass. Well, I am still looking at diferent subspecies of there chamilions, and I will look into buying some in the future.
;
Paul :
`----> ! Merry christmas ! / honica / other.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

FrogKid said:


> Ok, i believe what seems the best. I certainly might accidentially kill 1 or 2, btu my enclosute is as the habitat of Madagascars lowland forests. I dont know how much they are, but i will NOT try to buy wc things anymore. I was collecting a ton of caudata when i was 11 and younger, about 10 overall were living throught the past 1/2 year, and i still have one today, its a 2 lined salamander that was in a piece of wood in my pdf tank, yesterday i tried to grab it( in nightime ) but its fast feflexed made it literally jump away from my hands. As for the chamilion tank, i have allot of small twigs that are the size of pencils all over the tank. Sadly, my fogger broks, so less humidity has occured, and my mosses are not thriving as great as they were in the past. At least i still have some moss growing on the glass. Well, i am still looking at diferent subspecies of there chamilions, and i will look into buying some in the future.
> ;
> Paul :
> `----> ! Merry christmas ! / honica / other.


huh?

Try typing in WORD then spell check, the paste it here. I don't understand hardly anything you are trying to say.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

HuH? Not all people can spell or write good, i'm one of those people. I dont try to make enemies since I am going to mix chamilions with my herps. If it were up to me, If it naturally lives near them, you can mix them, one might kill the other( your fault) but the one who killed the other will have something to eat, its wrong, but thats the persons fault. I fell mixing chamilions with frogs isnt bad, unless you put them a small tank, overcroud them, or only feed what the chamilion eats, and not what the frog eats, which will result in neglect, which again is the owners fault. I know most people dont know what I mean, but it seems "ok" to me.
Paul Merry Christmas / honica/ other !


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

I'm not trying to insult you, but I honestly had no idea what point you were trying to get across. 

try proofreading your posts, I try to all the time and I always find things that make no sense. You post was really scattered and all over the place, I just didn't 'get' it.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

Thats ok.


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

LMAO, I have a HUGE backyard that my sulcatta roams free in, and she is provided with a warm hide at night. She has much much more space than the sulcattas at the San Diego zoo. You don't know WTF you are talking about but still continue to make accusations. Don't you have a tree sit with the NAU Campus Greens to attend?


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## Guest (Dec 21, 2004)

aren't there moderators? can't we just close this pointless thread?


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2004)

Yes, can someone please close this thread, i am tired of hearing about these peoples crazy ideas and even neglect to animals, whether it be directly or not. This is just beating a dead horse and causing tension on the board.


And in the future, if anyone wants to mix animals, dont come here and ask or post about it, it is just too contriversial of a topic. Just keep it to yourself, it would save alot of people stress.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2004)

Ya right about that. But, wheres the info about stub tail chams. ? didnt anyone pay attention, and not argue, ( no offense ) but this isnt what dendroboards about. Its about learning about pdf's and how to take care of em. 

Paul


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

I stand corrected.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

(there will be some relevent dart frog info in this post). 

Derek you still have not been able to supply a reason why mixing is a problem other than the nebulous claim of detrimental to the animal. In addition you have not been able to defend your stand on the decrease in spatial requirements. Instead you have resorted to an argument response that is remarkably similar to an Is to, Is not argument. 

Within a complex setup, not all of the space is used or even required by one species as an inhabitant, this is what allows an educated decision as to what can share the enclosure with another animal. 

When it comes to many animals including many pdfs, there is often a recommendation of minimal space based on gallons. I am not sure why, or even based on what reasoning, but the number thrown around is 5 gallons. Now this is a volume measurment, not a space measurement. 5 gallons can be any dimension as long as the sum of the cubic inches is about 1155 cubic inches. To use an extreme as an example, the cage could be two inches deep by two inches high and many feet long (lets see I think that works out to be 24 feet). Now this is a 5 gallon cage but is it suitable for an anuran? (Even though it contains 5 gallons of volume.) These recommendations (and that is all they are is recommendations) need to be looked at with a skeptical eye as they are often without supporting information other than this is what worked for me. 
As a rebuttel on the topic of RETFs, I have kept, bred and had RETF's finally die after 9 years at the density of 20 to a 55 gallon. I have had groups of 4-5 tincts in 20 longs live for more than 10 years and produce multiple clutches (the animals were already 4-6 years old when set-up). 

Now "everyone" says, that it has to be 5 gallons. I have also seen this posted in many places and on many sites but have yet to see a legitimate reason for it other than "someone" says so. (Has anyone else ever noticed that there is never any supporting information for this reasoning). 
I have to say, that the 5 gallon rule for RETFs and even many PDFs goes against almost 18 years of experience with these species. 

A comment on the phrase "everyone says" something, everyone used to say that if a man traveled faster than a horse could run they would die (just before the advent of the steam locomotive). 

Ed


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

We'll continue over PM, this thread is ridiculous


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2004)

LOL, that is a god post, Ed. Now, i personally think that 10 gallons is the best amount for each pdf. But, im only going to keep 4 cobalt tincs in a go gallon with 3 chams. 1 male cham, 2 females.


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## Schism (Nov 12, 2004)

troymcclure said:


> You don't know WTF you are talking about but still continue to make accusations. Don't you have a tree sit with the NAU Campus Greens to attend?


lol, who made accusations? Please tell me what I am thinking now.... 

Its just funny that I made a point that only idiots own salcutta tortoises, then you chime in later saying you have one. Now that is FUNNY. How that is an accusation, I don't know. The closest to an accusation that occured was pointing out the obvious (stated above). 

As for NAU, I finished my degrees (yes plural) years (yes plural) ago. 
You can try to take shots at people, you have no idea who your talking to or what your talking about. If your upset because your have been badgered by this thread you've made yourself look careless about your animals. 

Its funny how your posts have turned from defensive to emotional.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2004)

Alright guys, let's calm down. I enjoy debates, even if they get heated to some extent, but some of this is silly. I'm going to lock down this thread, but feel free to start relevant ones on the topics that this has split into. I like Ed and Derek's discussion, as long as there is intellectual debate-- which it is on the brink of. So start new threads, but keep things calm. No one wants to see fighting during the holiday season, nor do any of us moderators really want to have to patrol things much.
J


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