# Substrate mix



## ponies999 (Aug 10, 2010)

I am trying to figure out what kind of substrate would be best to use. Going to have red eyed tree frogs and PDF's. Not planning on using a false bottom so i definitely plan on using about 2" of hydroton in the bottom. Just trying to figure out the correct mixture for the substrate. I originally assumed you would just use dirt but i am finding from my research that that is not the case. I found one recipe that sounded like it was a good one but i wanted other people's opinions on what works for them since i am a complete noob at this.

Recipe
2 parts fine fir bark
2 parts fine tree fern fiber
2 parts milled sphagnum moss
1 part peat moss
1 part fine charcoal

not sure what the purpose of mixing this many things together or what the use of the individual items are for so if anyone could offer some insight about that it would be greatly appreciated.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

The overall characteristics of good a substrate is for it to be durable (not rot fast), retain sufficient moisture but also have adequate drainage, and to provide a good environment for microfauna (springtails, isopods, etc.) as well as vivarium plants. I am no expert and I've used recipes similar to the one you describe, but you should seriously look at the clay-based substrate blends. Use the search function and search for clay substrate. 

I have six vivs and have had good luck with the organic substrates, but I now have a pair of pumilio that I want to breed. Given that they will rear their own tadpoles, I need a set up that maximizes populations of microfauna. The clay-based substrates apparently make the microfauna more nutritious, particularly with respect to calcium. 

I just finished my pumilio build and I am using clay-based substrate in addition to a clay-based mix for the background (in place of cork or fern panels, or foam such as Great Stuff). I must say that it all looks great. I expect that the plants will grow better as well. I did glue some pieces of cork bark to the glass before adding the clay background and the combination looks more natural that any of my other vivs.

I imagine clay would be tricky with a water feature having vigorous water flow, but since it sounds like you are not constructing a false bottom with a water feature, clay substrate might work out well for you.

Consider looking into it.

As far as the organic recipe you have goes, the fern tree fiber and sphagnum are both very durable under wet conditions and the sphagnum retains moisture well. I imagine the charcoal is recommended as an ingredient to promote drainage, but I've never used it. The fir bark helps keep the substrate from being too compacted and dense. Personally, I prefer coco fiber to peat, but that is just my preference. Coco fiber does tend to hold up pretty well under wet conditions also. Some folks use coconut husk in place of the fir bark (it comes in bags with pieces ranging from pea sized to quarter sized). Fir bark is easier to find, since it is carried at Home Depot and Lowe's and usually labelled as an orchid mix.

If you're considering plants, I'd wash all the soil off the roots before planting unless you buy it from a knowledgeable frogger who uses substrate suitable to the vivarium in place of common soil. Potting soil breaks down quickly under wet conditions and it can contain chemical residues from the nursery. Also, potting soil often contains small particles of styrofoam which can cause compaction in frogs if they accidentally eat a piece while going after prey.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but I am happy to help a fellow frogger avoid some of the mistakes that I have made.

Good luck!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

That is a classic 'Carolina' mix,
I use it but add coco husk/bedding instead of peat moss, and Ca+2 sand.

S



ponies999 said:


> I am trying to figure out what kind of substrate would be best to use. Going to have red eyed tree frogs and PDF's. Not planning on using a false bottom so i definitely plan on using about 2" of hydroton in the bottom. Just trying to figure out the correct mixture for the substrate. I originally assumed you would just use dirt but i am finding from my research that that is not the case. I found one recipe that sounded like it was a good one but i wanted other people's opinions on what works for them since i am a complete noob at this.
> 
> Recipe
> 2 parts fine fir bark
> ...


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## ponies999 (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks for your responses  i will have to look into the clay mixtures...i hadnt heard about them. I found another recipe that i think i might like better. Hydroton with a mixture of 2 parts fir and sphagum peat moss mix and 1 part coco fiber over it. 

Not sure if anyone has any experience with red tail boas but i was looking to do a viv for the red tail as well but i wasnt sure if the same substrate would work for her. I am a little concerned with it being too wet for her and her getting scale/belly rot from the substrate always being damp.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

For your Redtail you would probably be better off using a cypress mulch. You can get a big bag for $5 at home depot or a garden center. With the amount you would need and the mess a large snake makes this would be a better choice $$ wise. I also find that it works well for holding humidity, but can dry out easily with good air flow. I've used it with tortoises, monitors, snakes, and many other herps.


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## ponies999 (Aug 10, 2010)

johnachilli said:


> For your Redtail you would probably be better off using a cypress mulch. You can get a big bag for $5 at home depot or a garden center. With the amount you would need and the mess a large snake makes this would be a better choice $$ wise. I also find that it works well for holding humidity, but can dry out easily with good air flow. I've used it with tortoises, monitors, snakes, and many other herps.


The only problem with the cypress mulch is i want to do a planted viv for her if possible and cypress mulch definitely doesnt fit with that. I currently have her on eco-earth (switched from newspaper) and i like that. I might have to just plant the background and keep everything in pots or something for the floor. Im just concerned with the substrate staying too damp all the time for her.


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## ravengritz (Mar 2, 2009)

A planted viv for a redtail is going to require some pretty sturdy plants with deep root systems. I did this for our redtail but kept everything potted and then mulched around the pots.



ponies999 said:


> The only problem with the cypress mulch is i want to do a planted viv for her if possible and cypress mulch definitely doesnt fit with that. I currently have her on eco-earth (switched from newspaper) and i like that. I might have to just plant the background and keep everything in pots or something for the floor. Im just concerned with the substrate staying too damp all the time for her.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

I would agree that the best bet is to keep the plants in pots and mulch around them.


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## mainbutter (Sep 2, 2010)

I use the atlanta botanical garden mix available from Josh's Frogs in my semi-arboreal neonate/juvi snake terrariums.

I don't know the exact mix, but eyeballing the contents, it looks a lot like what you have posted for your recipe.

I didn't want to bother mixing it myself so it was nice having a supplier that had a good terrarium mix already available.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

sports_doc said:


> That is a classic 'Carolina' mix,
> I use it but add coco husk/bedding instead of peat moss, and Ca+2 sand.
> 
> S


Your variation may be classic "Corolina" mix but the posted recipe is ABG mix. While I agree that clay substrates are worth checking out, the ABG mix was tried and true when I started in frogs about 9 years ago. It is a wonderful substrate for very humid environments. The Tree Fern is super long lasting and keeps air pockets in the substrate making it very well drained. The Fir bark does the same thing but also holds some moisture. The Sphagnum and Peat moss hold moisture and work as the "dirt" so to speak. The Charcoal keeps air pockets in the mix, is very long lasting, and helps to keep it fresh.

I personally run the ABG mix with 2 to 5 times as much charcoal as the recipe calls for.


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