# Breeding tanks!



## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Hey guys, was looking around for a thread on breeding but couldn't find any that answered my questions.
i was going t setup a ten gallon breeder for a pair of citronellas but wasn't sure how to do so. i want to be able to see my frogs out but don't want it to be lacking hiding spots. wanted to know if you guys had any ideas on how i should set this up.

also was reading about ventilation and wanted to know if i needed a fan to circulate the air. also wanted to have a stagnant pond of water but couldn't figure out how id change the water in it?

Thanks Guys!


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## tarbo96 (Jan 12, 2006)

A ten gallon may be a little small. I would suggest a 20g set up as normal with cocohuts in which they will lay eggs. Pull the eggs close to development and place tads in deli cups...no stagnant pools.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

A 10 gallon tank for a pair of Citronellas is not exactly ideal (I would go with a 20 gal, they are on sale at Petco right now for $20). 
The citronella are going to want floor space, so after you put in a coconut hut for depositing their eggs, you aren't going to have a lot of room for decorations(i.e hiding spots) much less a pond. Maybe create a two tiered effect by laying a small piece of wood (Malaysian driftwood or ghostwood) on the floor and building up the soil behind it. 
If you need a pond that you can clean, I would just sink a deli cup into the ground so you can change the water easily. Why do you think you need a pond? 
You won't need active ventilation (a fan) as long as you have the top vented.


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Thanks guys!, from the youtube videos i have been watching i have seen most of them setup in ten gallons... and i didn't think i needed a pond and i knew stagnent water is bad, i had a exo terra dish that i think ill use, with a stone in the middle due to the fact that they can't swim and will drown.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I use a 4 oz plastic cup inset in the substrate and fill it with about an inch of spring water once a week or so...varies per tank/frogs etc...but they love it, and will even lay eggs in it when the really get going.

I would feel bad for my cits in a ten...I've considered it, to conserve space, but when I watch them dominate the 20 long they're in I stop considering the ten...I'll post a pic of my breeder tank in a bit.


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

jdooley195 said:


> I use a 4 oz plastic cup inset in the substrate and fill it with about an inch of spring water once a week or so...varies per tank/frogs etc...but they love it, and will even lay eggs in it when the really get going.
> 
> I would feel bad for my cits in a ten...I've considered it, to conserve space, but when I watch them dominate the 20 long they're in I stop considering the ten...I'll post a pic of my breeder tank in a bit.



I felt the same after looking at the size of the ten gallon and the size of the frog, I've read that the bigger the tank the more they hide so i wasn't sure. and that'd be great thanks!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the tank is set up properly so the frogs feel secure they aren't likely to hide more in a larger tank. (Well unless your in it every day mucking around scaring them all the time). If you keep your enclosure interventions as limited as possible then your going to have happier frogs. If the frogs feel they have places they can retreat to when they feel threatened again, it should help them feel bolder. 

There is a long history of success in the hobby using ten gallon tanks for breeding tinctorius but you'll probably see a greater variation in behavior and activity in a larger tank as opposed to a smaller enclosure. 

If your willing to go with a larger enclosure, do you have the space for a 20 gallon long as opposed to the 20 gallon high? Tinctorius are known to climb in the wild but the greater floor space is going to work out better for them than the height in the 20 high. Also tinctorius *do not need bromeliads* in their enclosure so you can skip the height needed to have them in the tank. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

They were actually gettin busy when I turned the lights on...






Little cave I made...they sleep there a lot


You can see the salsa cup in the back...looks like a leaf got in there...but ya, I just squirt some water in there when I think of it






I left this 4" long by about 1/2" gap or so without silicone for heat to release through...gotta keep the plants trimmed under it.

Hope this helps


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Ed said:


> If the tank is set up properly so the frogs feel secure they aren't likely to hide more in a larger tank. (Well unless your in it every day mucking around scaring them all the time). If you keep your enclosure interventions as limited as possible then your going to have happier frogs. If the frogs feel they have places they can retreat to when they feel threatened again, it should help them feel bolder.
> 
> There is a long history of success in the hobby using ten gallon tanks for breeding tinctorius but you'll probably see a greater variation in behavior and activity in a larger tank as opposed to a smaller enclosure.
> 
> ...


Thanks ed, I understand that the tin species are not arboreal, I have a 30 gallon lon that was considering i also have a 18hx18wx36l ex terra from opener but i thought it would be to big. would you say this to big or should i use it?i had a pair of leucs in there that didn't do well at all so i wasn't sure. Thanks for your thoughts
Bay


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Thanks jdooley195 This is great thanks for the pictures those helped me out a lot! beautiful frogs btw!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BaysExotics said:


> Thanks ed, I understand that the tin species are not arboreal, I have a 30 gallon lon that was considering i also have a 18hx18wx36l ex terra from opener but i thought it would be to big. would you say this to big or should i use it?i had a pair of leucs in there that didn't do well at all so i wasn't sure. Thanks for your thoughts
> Bay


In a general manner, larger is generally better as it can provide multiple microclimates for the frogs. In what way do you think the size of the enclosure was a problem? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Ed said:


> In a general manner, larger is generally better as it can provide multiple microclimates for the frogs. In what way do you think the size of the enclosure was a problem?
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I had a pair of leucs that didn't do well in a 30 gallon because they had trouble finding food


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## Aldross (Dec 30, 2013)

BaysExotics said:


> I had a pair of leucs that didn't do well in a 30 gallon because they had trouble finding food


if finding the feeders was truly the issue than you can always set up a feeding station. were the frogs losing weight or did you just assume they had trouble finding them?

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Aldross said:


> if finding the feeders was truly the issue than you can always set up a feeding station. were the frogs losing weight or did you just assume they had trouble finding them?
> 
> Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2


they were losing weight, were constantly hiding and then stopped eating, i was told that it was the tank size


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## ecichlid (Dec 26, 2012)

You were given some bad advice is all.


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

ecichlid said:


> You were given some bad advice is all.


Maybe, but, IMO if frogs were very young I wouldn't put them in that large of an enclosure. I'm with you on the fact that it's not to large for adult frogs, but I wouldn't put say 2 3mos old leucs in there.


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

toostrange said:


> Maybe, but, IMO if frogs were very young I wouldn't put them in that large of an enclosure. I'm with you on the fact that it's not to large for adult frogs, but I wouldn't put say 2 3mos old leucs in there.


Agreed...I've seen this a lot. I'll give a very nice large grow out to some new froglets and they wont do well. Then I'll put them in a shoe box size tub with a coco hut and 5 magnolia leaves, and within a month or two they'll be as healthy looking as can be.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Size of vivarium should not be an issue if it has been properly seeded with micro fauna, has proper temps and humidity and has plenty of hiding spots and leaf litter. I have raised thumbnails in 40g breeders with no issues and have pumilio froglets in a 36x18x36 exo as we speak that are steadily growing having no issues finding the food I provide for them. Your frogs will forage for food all day assuming they are comfortable enough to come out of hiding in a properly set up environment. If there is food available, they will find it. Feeding stations can make it easier, but I dont find the to be a requirement.


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## MWAInverts (Oct 7, 2014)

To add to this and in support of what has already been said. A properly maintained and seeded ecosystem is key here. Ever since I got my BriBri, I've never seen them eat, heck I don't see them most of the time lol. But every time I catch a glance, they'e both fat and healthy. They're also tiny in their huge tank and I don't use feeding stations in my tanks. I drop dusted flies in 2-3 parts of the viv and the pair pick them off under the leaf litter while also eating a ton of springs and isos.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdooley195 said:


> Agreed...I've seen this a lot. I'll give a very nice large grow out to some new froglets and they wont do well. Then I'll put them in a shoe box size tub with a coco hut and 5 magnolia leaves, and within a month or two they'll be as healthy looking as can be.


Is it due to the size of the enclosure or due to a problem with the frogs themselves? For example, frogs with hypovitaminosis of A may not be as able to capture prey in a larger enclosure where the prey is more distributed due to having to forage between captures as opposed to having the prey concentrated in a show box? 

That is one potential scenario I can think of as an issue right off the bat.... 

How about the density of microfauna was insufficient in the larger enclosure due to some variable and insufficiently supplemented while the frogs were in the larger enclosure. 

Think about it.... If size was an issue, then it would be a problem in the wild. Anytime we hear of an issue and solution that fits this pattern, we shouldn't think that the size of the enclosure is the problem. Instead we should look at other aspects of the husbandry. The idea that size of enclosure is the problem is an example of dogma and keeping the froglets in a smaller tank is simply a bandaid for a symptom without correcting the underlying issues. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

Ed said:


> Is it due to the size of the enclosure or due to a problem with the frogs themselves? For example, frogs with hypovitaminosis of A may not be as able to capture prey in a larger enclosure where the prey is more distributed due to having to forage between captures as opposed to having the prey concentrated in a show box?
> 
> That is one potential scenario I can think of as an issue right off the bat....
> 
> ...


this makes sense to me!, i am working on planting my tank this week and i will post pictures to this thread, when i do let me know what you guys think!


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

Well, in the wild, frogs can continue to travel to hunt their food...in captivity, they're obviously limited to the confines of the tank, so when the food is gone its gone...there's no catching up to it.

When the food is concentrated and frogs can line up and chow down, they've done better in my care. A feeder station can provide this, but I honestly stopped using them after it appeared to not be working well enough.

I've seen this with older frogs as well...I've taken not so plump adult frogs out of tanks and put them in smaller enclosures and seen them thrive. So, I don't know what else to say about that....I've proven it to myself, I guess.

Also, none of the frogs I was talking about stopped eating. It was more like they were only able to eat a dozen or so flies before there were no more to be seen at the moment.

I should've mentioned too though the importance of microfauna for smaller frogs...a must have for thumbnails and pumilio in my house. And indeed, in a larger enclosure, not having enough springs wide spread could have been a contributor to what I experienced...very possible. But with tincs, I prefer to see them eat fruit flies.

Supplementation and husbandry...damn near all of my breeder pairs come from different sources in an attempt to diversify the blood a bit. I only feed my springtails bug burger, and keep my supplements fresh.

It's great to give every frog tons of room, but not every frog completely benefits from having it.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Just to be clear, if you are using the tank the leucs died in, you will be sanitizing it properly first, right?


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

jdooley195 said:


> Well, in the wild, frogs can continue to travel to hunt their food...in captivity, they're obviously limited to the confines of the tank, so when the food is gone its gone...there's no catching up to it.
> 
> When the food is concentrated and frogs can line up and chow down, they've done better in my care. A feeder station can provide this, but I honestly stopped using them after it appeared to not be working well enough.
> 
> ...


I have a smaller the gallon should i use this instead??


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm sure there are plenty of people with healthy pairs of citronellas in ten gallon tanks, but they are arguably the largest tinc in the hobby, and as adults, would probably 'enjoy' a larger tank (20 long and so forth).

If you are putting a pair of froglets in (am guessing not though, because of your avatar), they would be fine in a ten gallon tank...

As mentioned, temps, humidity, and cover/hides are very important. If you have feeding issues I'd address them here as soon as they happen with pics and info. But to speculate on how your frogs will do feeding wise in an enclosure that isn't built yet is kind of a far stretch. 'Personality' of the frog may come into play as well.


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

jdooley195 said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of people with healthy pairs of citronellas in ten gallon tanks, but they are arguably the largest tinc in the hobby, and as adults, would probably 'enjoy' a larger tank (20 long and so forth).
> 
> If you are putting a pair of froglets in (am guessing not though, because of your avatar), they would be fine in a ten gallon tank...
> 
> As mentioned, temps, humidity, and cover/hides are very important. If you have feeding issues I'd address them here as soon as they happen with pics and info. But to speculate on how your frogs will do feeding wise in an enclosure that isn't built yet is kind of a far stretch. 'Personality' of the frog may come into play as well.


i finished the tank today just have to finish planting, i will set up a ten gallon as well and put them where they do best! thanks for your help


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdooley195 said:


> Well, in the wild, frogs can continue to travel to hunt their food...in captivity, they're obviously limited to the confines of the tank, so when the food is gone its gone...there's no catching up to it.


And this is a symptom of poor husbandry if the owner is not providing adequate food sources in the enclosure. 



jdooley195 said:


> When the food is concentrated and frogs can line up and chow down, they've done better in my care. A feeder station can provide this, but I honestly stopped using them after it appeared to not be working well enough.
> 
> I've seen this with older frogs as well...I've taken not so plump adult frogs out of tanks and put them in smaller enclosures and seen them thrive. So, I don't know what else to say about that....I've proven it to myself, I guess.


And most of the time when someone refers to a plump frog, they are referring to one that is morbidly obese. If you can see the plumpness of the frog, it is obese. 



jdooley195 said:


> Also, none of the frogs I was talking about stopped eating. It was more like they were only able to eat a dozen or so flies before there were no more to be seen at the moment.


Hyovitaminosis of A and short tongue system don't have to mean that the frog has stopped feeding but that there is a reduction in the ability to capture prey. That reduction is the issue. 

The frogs should be able to forage for feeders as that encourages more natural behaviors as well as reducing the problems with obesity. Dart frogs require far fewer fruit flies than many people think. A small frog can do perfectly well on less than 100 flies a day at 75 F. So seeing them capture a dozen or so flies before having to forage is a good thing. 



jdooley195 said:


> It's great to give every frog tons of room, but not every frog completely benefits from having it.


And this should be a huge red warning flag that something in the system isn't right for the animals. Keep in mind that this can be a perception problem where the person thinks an obese frog is a frog that is doing well. Obesity can cause significant issues for the frogs just as it can with other taxa such as people, dogs and so forth. One of the most common is fatty infiltration of the liver. This damages the liver and can cause issues with the ability of the liver to function properly. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

okay...I have a question that may be part of the thread.....there is no way to "count" how many FFs a particular frog may eat...what is the expectation for a healthy frog...Tincs, thumbs...etc. And what happens to the ones that do get away?? I have read about the obese frogs vs. lean, healthy, hunting frogs...but that is such a subtle observation ... (not like watching my horses graze all day....) So how many FFs do you dump in every day, two days, three days....and expect them to eat XXXXX many flies???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Judy,

See if this helps http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/9031-how-many-flies-mealtime.html 

Ed


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

To the OP: Sorry we derailed your thread, but Ed has posted some good info on Vitamin A, feeding frequencies, and obesity that you'll need to know anyways, so it worked out. He has a great range of knowledge on these animals and obviously does not mind sharing.

Hope all goes well with your tank and glad my pictures have helped. Also, I've seen your other threads and am glad you're doing the research. 

To Ed...to be honest, I don't see how strictly Hypovitaminosis A could have been the cause of my situation unless it was due to the fact that the lower number of flies they were able to catch before escaping in a larger environment (due to poor husbandry) had caused it, and the more flies they had access to in the smaller setup corrected it...Without making any changes to the supplementation of the feeders in the two different setups, I just cant see how the number of flies isn't the issue...especially if it was Hypovitaminosis A....more food=more vitamins.

Lol, maybe you agreed with me from a different angle?  not that it seemed like it...don't think I'd get that lucky.

And yes, it would be poor husbandry...but changing their environment (even though it is to a smaller setup) and in short-time seeing more active, healthy-looking frogs (obese to the wild) would be an improvement to their husbandry from the hobby's viewpoint.

Ed, I'll leave it be, I know you run marathons when it comes to most anything in this field, and I am definitely not capable of keeping up. Thank you again for sharing what you know.


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## BaysExotics (Dec 28, 2014)

jdooley195 said:


> To the OP: Sorry we derailed your thread, but Ed has posted some good info on Vitamin A, feeding frequencies, and obesity that you'll need to know anyways, so it worked out. He has a great range of knowledge on these animals and obviously does not mind sharing.
> 
> Hope all goes well with your tank and glad my pictures have helped. Also, I've seen your other threads and am glad you're doing the research.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the help youve been giving me, i think im now ready to get into this great hobby, also thanks to Ed i enjoyed reading both of your different point of views on the situation!


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