# This can't be good. . .



## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

I was skimming through kingsnake and found this: kingsnake.com Classifieds: *ARROW FROG SALE* Bumble Bee, Suriname Cobalt Tincs, Green & Black Auratus, Tinc x Auratus, More!

It says they have Cobalt Tincs crossed with G&B Auratus. I have asked for pictures and am waiting. I'm not sure why, but it really rubs me the wrong way. They have them priced pretty high like the mutt is worth more than the real thing. 

I am wondering how common this is. I think it is safe to say that this is one of the biggest concerns of mixing. I do understand it could be a worse situation and the seller is being honest about what they are, but it appears to be only because he thinks the mix makes them more valuable.

If they don't sell will he try to sell them as Cobalts?


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## tangelo (Oct 20, 2007)

That really is sad, especially from a company that has dealt in reptiles and amphibians for a long time. You would think they would know better


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Horrible...

Lately, there have been two threads with a couple "Kingsnakers".....sad.


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## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

maybe it was a typo... chill out


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## M_Rybecky (Mar 16, 2009)

Its not a typo.... it you click the link then go to the website of the people selling the frogs it says the exact same thing on their more then once...


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

sNApple said:


> maybe it was a typo... chill out


Its not a typo, Cobalt Tinc x Green Auratus Arrow Frogs

I sent them off an email, maybe if a lot of people do they will get the idea.


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## Nate (Jan 5, 2009)

...

Dang, I was looking through their chameleons wondering whether I would by a pygmy and try out my hand building a huge viv for them and some tincs, now I'm not sure whether I will buy from them at all.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Peace said:


> ...
> 
> Dang, I was looking through their chameleons wondering whether I would by a pygmy and try out my hand building a huge viv for them and some tincs, now I'm not sure whether I will buy from them at all.


Good thing there are a lot of people selling Chameleons.....lot of choices...


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I think this goes on a lot more often than most are aware of. Although I disagree with it, at least they are selling the animals for what they truly are. 

That being said, I really hope that this trend does not continue. Dart frogs already come in almost any color and pattern combination imaginable: why try to improve on nature?


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## Trey (Sep 10, 2008)

Maybe someone should inform them of their blasphemy!! lol jk, but seriously i wonder if they even know that hybridization is frowned upon?? Id really like to find out where they get their stock from and give that person a piece of my mind, or better yet turn them over to all of you, yikes!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

this goes to show the importance of purchasing frogs from reputable breeders. Encourage and support those who support good husbandry and breeding methods. Boycott those who do not.

Although on the flip side, purchasing _only_ from reputable breeders may discourage those who are newer to the hobby who are _trying_ to support those customs....

Maybe this goes to show the importance of asking a lot of questions....


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## Paul G (Feb 27, 2007)

This really angers me.

Honestly, I'm sure they have no idea its frowned upon. This type of breeding has been going on so long with reptiles most people don't even think twice. (especially if they can make more money)
Amphibians are secondary to most herp sellers to begin with.


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

these guys are based in San Diego and have two brick and mortars here. needless to say, i won't be shopping there anymore. they are also likely vending at the Reptile Super Show. they've been there at least the past two years. we'll see if they try and bring their hybrids anywhere near Rich, the Sihlers, Dane and Jason. that should be interesting.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

I did find it funny the ad notated they are captive bred...........uh...........duh!


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## JoshK (Jan 5, 2009)

I recieved an email from them stating simply "Sorry, these frogs are no longer available."

I hope I do not offend anyone by saying that I would prefer they perished rather than got sold.


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

joshieluv said:


> I recieved an email from them stating simply "Sorry, these frogs are no longer available."
> 
> I hope I do not offend anyone by saying that I would prefer they perished rather than got sold.



They were sold. I wanted to see a picture so I emailed them and was told they had already sold them.


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## Dean (Mar 1, 2008)

At least you can tell that they are morphs in the chameleon world ( panthers) all the females of the locales look very similar and when you get them you have to be sure that they are the locale you want . Nothing to go on other then reputation of the breeder that's why we frown on cross breeding. Two different locale females but they both look the same.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This speaks to a larger issue... (one I have commented on several times).. 

How often does someone assist in identifying a frog posted in the identification forum? Does anyone think that this may not also contribute to the problem???? 


Ed


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## bobberly1 (Jul 16, 2008)

Dean said:


> At least you can tell that they are morphs in the chameleon world ( panthers) all the females of the locales look very similar and when you get them you have to be sure that they are the locale you want . Nothing to go on other then reputation of the breeder that's why we frown on cross breeding. Two different locale females but they both look the same.


Same thing with female killifish, it's a huge pain, because you can never mix fry or females you aren't familiar with. The universal identification is definitely a positive to dart frogs.


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## bmasar (Dec 13, 2007)

Ed said:


> This speaks to a larger issue... (one I have commented on several times)..
> 
> How often does someone assist in identifying a frog posted in the identification forum? Does anyone think that this may not also contribute to the problem????
> 
> ...


sorry, Ed. i think i get your point, but could you clarify?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hybrids/integrades can be intermediate between different established morphs and/or species... when a frog is sold as one thing or sold as an unknown and it is then identified based on the pattern via a opinion poll, what is the probability that the frog is being truely attributed to the right group? 

We haven't even discussed variations within a morph that can cause confustion in polymorphic species (like pumilio)... 

Ed


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## Paul G (Feb 27, 2007)

message back from LLL Reptile about my distaste for selling these frogs....

"Thank you for your email.

We did not breed those frogs ourselves, they were brought in by a customer of ours that is obviously not a professional frog breeder. We do understand the need for pure bloodlines in captive bred species like arrow frogs, which is why they are clearly advertised as crosses.

We don't believe in culling any of our animals here, but the frogs have been taken off the website. We'll find homes for them locally with people who will appreciate them as cool pets, not as part of a greater breeding project."

Just thought everybody would like to know.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hybrids/integrades can be intermediate between different established morphs and/or species... when a frog is sold as one thing or sold as an unknown and it is then identified based on the pattern via a opinion poll, what is the probability that the frog is being truely attributed to the right group?
> 
> We haven't even discussed variations within a morph that can cause confustion in polymorphic species (like pumilio)...
> 
> Ed




Ed, I would bet that its more common than we think. In some cases, its less of an issue, IE, with undocumented Leucs, and the like, but with animals attributed to specific collection locations(like Pumilio), its a huge issue. If you don't know that it was collected at "Chiriqui River", then its not a O.Pumilio "Chiriqui River", no matter what it looks like. 


Location data can not be added to a frog. once its gone, its gone, and the frog is now just an _sp_


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rich Conley said:


> Ed, I would bet that its more common than we think. In some cases, its less of an issue, IE, with undocumented Leucs, and the like, but with animals attributed to specific collection locations(like Pumilio), its a huge issue. If you don't know that it was collected at "Chiriqui River", then its not a O.Pumilio "Chiriqui River", no matter what it looks like.


Often enough I have thought about keeping antacid pills in a jar next to my computer. 




Rich Conley said:


> Location data can not be added to a frog. once its gone, its gone, and the frog is now just an _sp_


This is exactly what I was trying to convey. Instead of attempting to label it with a "locality" it could be labled with a import designation like APR08-Op (April, 2008, Ooophaga pumilio)... which would track the frogs just as well. 

Ed


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> This is exactly what I was trying to convey. Instead of attempting to label it with a "locality" it could be labled with a import designation like APR08-Op (April, 2008, Ooophaga pumilio)... which would track the frogs just as well.


Of course, but its still something that needs to be kept with the frog, and can't be put back on once its gone. 


The "what is this frog" threads sure can be aggravating with respect to that.


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