# help me settle this debate!



## nottelling (Nov 19, 2010)

Ok, so here's the deal. I don't actually own frogs, nor have I ever. My boyfriend, whom I live with, does. This is fine, I think they're cool and I don't mind the hobby at all! I have no problem with having the tanks around, or even the plastic containers full of fly cultures. Here's where we're having the issue. For some reason, our apartment has an unusual abundance of fruit flies... lose and flying around. Now I'm not saying I'm martha stewart, but I do keep a clean home. My boyfriend (whom I will not name as I'm fairly certain he posts on here) insists that there is NO possible way that his flies escape from the tanks or their cultures, even though I've been near one of his tanks and a little family of flies flew from behind the tank. I can't imagine where else they're coming from! So, is it possible for flightless or wingless cultures to produce "fliers", and has anyone had them escape from their tanks? He can do no wrong so I don't exactly trust when he says it's impossible, so I figured I'd ask you guys!


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Yes. usually after breeding a few cycles they do breed the ability back in and start flying again.


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

sorry..more - usually start with flightless fruit flies and in about 4 or 5 weeks theyre up and flying within the culture again lol


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

It is possible...

If a wild type came in, during warm weather or on fresh produce, and mated with some of the flightless flies, then the dominant flyable gene would cause a generation of flyable flies.

Sometime in the hundreds of flies produced, a mutation could pop up causing the recessive flightless gene not to work.

Some fruit fly cultures will produce fliers if exposed to high temperatures. The cause of their inability to fly is a recessive gene that creates a faulty protein. In higher heat that protein is altered in such a way that it serves its intended purpose.

Fungus gnats look like fruit flies, and breed in the high humidity environment of vivariums rapidly.

At my old apartment, fruit flies were breeding in the wet wall, and coming out around the kitchen sink. All I had pet wise back then was fish and a cat.


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## RecycledAgain (Oct 26, 2008)

I would wager they are escaping from the tanks, I would also wager that the 
"flying around" remark was an exaggeration on your part ..
I have seen a Turk GLIDE down an land on my wifes glass of wine and she would claim that it flew.. I just shake my head ..

Please disregard sktdvs's comments as facts , because it couldn't be further from the truth unless gross negligence is used in preparation of cultures.

Dan


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## diver123 (Aug 26, 2009)

sktdvs said:


> sorry..more - usually start with flightless fruit flies and in about 4 or 5 weeks theyre up and flying within the culture again lol


That statement isnot accurate. Some other factor in the breeding allows them to become fliers again. To warm or outside intruder could be it. I have not purchased FF in more than a year and continue the same culture line over and over without ever a flyer.

So is it possible you have escapes..... sure. If an outside flier did get in, it would take about 12 days before you would know. Thats about the cycle of eggs to flys. Any extra flys hanging out in the tank that dont get eaten are great at waiting by the lid to leap for freedom as soon as lid is open. Often flightless may look like they are flying because they can cover a short distance and combined with a leap towards the floor appear to "fly". Other than that fungus gnats are a possiblility as stated by okapi.


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

I dont care what you want to "technically" call it...but if theyre hoping and "using" their wings with ability to "glide", well then, theyre still flying to me. Theyre still getting from point A to point B with their wings. =)

So to me, theyre flying =)


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I would be willing to bet that the flies flying around are not from his cultures, or even escapes from his tanks, but actually from new plants that have been purchased. Whenever I get a new plant I have an abundance of flying flies in and around the tanks. After a few days with the frogs, I dont see anymore.

Do you have any potted plants outside of the tanks? Chances ae that is where they are comming from.


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks Diver 123. I do live in warm/sunny Southern California...and well I've never sat and actually cared to see if they were flapping wings or not, I have seen them "glide" by my face a good 30 feet away, so I figured they were flying by. 

Same goes for the cup, peeking through and seeing them buzzing..I guess they were "hoping" and "gliding" so figure with that and the fact that they wizz by from time to time, that it was flight.

That and the fact that I was told as they cycle it can be bred back in, I just put the 2 together. But thanks Diver for clearing that up =)


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## nottelling (Nov 19, 2010)

I can't be sure if they're flying or gliding... a lot of the time they appear to be hopping. Either way, they're OUT, lol, And flying/hopping/gliding into my food, around my kitchen and bathroom, and across my face while we're eating dinner! Like I said, I really don't care if he likes to keep bugs, I just don't want them out of their containers!


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## sktdvs (Nov 1, 2010)

No, not any new plants. I actually used to buy my vivs set up from a well known breeder, whos name I will not say...so I never had plants shipped because then, I had no idea how to set them up 10 years ago. 

SO they came with moss and broms ready to go. And I was told by the same breeder that the gene for flight gets bred out but eventually if they breed enough it can be bred back in.


So that and the fact Id see then wizz by, well easy to just put the 2 together and figure flight. Anyway no biggie, I have no issues with them, just trying to help explain that they can get from point A to point B =)


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## RecycledAgain (Oct 26, 2008)

As I suggested ,, Disregard the stated facts ,, Back to the original question,,

I'm curious how the tanks are set up?.. Full glass lids ,, standard fish tank lids ,, Exo..

Dan


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

You should be able to attract the escapees/fliers with some vinegar. They'll be attracted to it and hopefully go in for a drink and drown.


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## nottelling (Nov 19, 2010)

The lid he has currently on his main tank is a screen, with a plastic sheet covering it, but he insists that it's sealed. He also still insists there is just no possible way these little guys are coming from his tank.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

nottelling said:


> The lid he has currently on his main tank is a screen, with a plastic sheet covering it, but he insists that it's sealed. He also still insists there is just no possible way these little guys are coming from his tank.


Unless the lid is siliconed on that tank will leak flies like a sieve. 

Bet you'll be happy to hear that.  Is this a fish tank or a front opening tank?

All of our tanks leak flies a lil. As mentioned already, vinegar traps work very well. Just place them close to the tank. 

I find that overfeeding also contributes HUGE to escaped flies. You could have fungas knats or phlorid flies too. These tanks are magnets for other critter's wanting in. The perfect breeding ground for lotsa critters...


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Wow this little thread has a bit of a nasty tone.

Lets try and clear some things up.

1. "flyers" can occur from gliders or less commonly vestigial winged FF's. Typically if exposed to heat, but also if a 'wild type' FF gets into the cx when they are being made. They love the smell of the media and fly over from your kitchen 
2. "flyers" usual dont just occur after normal rounds of repeat cx. I've had cx going for many years without flyers, as have others. That said a spontaneous mutation back to wild type abilities is theoretically possible.
3. Turkish Gliders are a common FF in the hobby. They glide....down hill....like a paper airplane. So if you FF are buzzing around the tank and your head, they arent likely gliding.
4. A completely ff proof tank is almost impossible to make....btw. We've all tried. LOL. 
5. If you have PDF, and FF's, you will have escapees. And eventually spiders 
6. Vinegar, beer, wine left out near the tanks will collect a lot of the escapees.
7. A tiny cutting of an orange or banana left in the tank will attract the FF and make them MUCH less likely to venture out of the tanks. Try it.

S


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I would listen to Shawn. 

At this time of year it is very common to see wild type fruit flies come into the house and they will follow the scent of fruit and the cultures. 

If the flies are only hopping or crawling then they may be escapes or they could have been spilled when the frogs were being fed. As Shawn noted above, placing a small piece of fruit (and I also use orange) goes a long way to reducing wanders. 
You can also set up fruit fly traps, using a small container (a small soda bottle works well and can be used several times before recycling) with about a 50/50 mixture of balsamic vinegar or apple cider vinegar and water with one or two drops of dish soap in it. These traps will lure loose flies and drown them. Discard and refill after a week. 

Ed


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## nottelling (Nov 19, 2010)

Thanks for all of your replies! This definitely brings a bit of light to the situation. I've attached a pic of one of the offending buggers I found this morning taking a dip with a few friends in my dog's water bowl... he oddly enough did not have any wings.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

ah...that settles it then....one of the BF's progeny FF's for sure  He's in trouble....

"Notellin" what will happen to him.....


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

nottelling said:


> Thanks for all of your replies! This definitely brings a bit of light to the situation. I've attached a pic of one of the offending buggers I found this morning taking a dip with a few friends in my dog's water bowl... he oddly enough did not have any wings.



That would be dart frog food. Now you have evidence. 

Be gentle with him...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

How do you feel about ferrets and foxes? I'm a single guy who can admit when I'm wrong


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## ab1502 (Jun 27, 2007)

I used to have a FF problem.. now I have FF-sized spiders in the corners of my house and no more FFs! spiders are much better.


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## nottelling (Nov 19, 2010)

Haha, thanks you guys! Like I said, I don't MIND the frogs, I like them, and the bugs I can deal with, so long as he does what he can to minimize the escapees! He puts up with my 2 silly yappy dogs so I really can't complain. I DO mind that he won't just admit he's wrong. But don't worry, I won't be that hard on him, I'll just make sure a few escapees find their way into his dinner


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## nottelling (Nov 19, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> How do you feel about ferrets and foxes? I'm a single guy who can admit when I'm wrong


Ferrets, meh, but foxes! That's awesome!


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Put a couple inches of apple cider vinegar in a cup with a drop of dish soap, and set it near the vivarium. That will attract, then drown, the escapees.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

nottelling said:


> Haha, thanks you guys! Like I said, I don't MIND the frogs, I like them, and the bugs I can deal with, so long as he does what he can to minimize the escapees! He puts up with my 2 silly yappy dogs so I really can't complain. I DO mind that he won't just admit he's wrong. But don't worry, I won't be that hard on him, I'll just make sure a few escapees find their way into his dinner


 
You really don't have to add extras... just go down the list here and choose one that has a high level of permissible defects 
Defect Levels Handbook


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## Ulisesfrb (Dec 8, 2008)

nottelling said:


> I DO mind that he won't just admit he's wrong. But don't worry, I won't be that hard on him, I'll just make sure a few escapees find their way into his dinner


LMAO, that should change his mind.


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## eldalote2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Ugh Ed, I really didn't want to know whats in our food. Kinda like hot dogs, ignorance is bliss.


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> You really don't have to add extras... just go down the list here and choose one that has a high level of permissible defects
> Defect Levels Handbook



Okay, this makes me just that much happier to be a home canner for all our fruit/tomatoes/jams, etc.

And commercial Fig Newtons are OUT! 13+ insect heads per 100 grams!? Ewww, I know, it's just protein and I constantly pick ff's out of whatever I bring with me to the frog room to drink while I'm working. But at least there they've been seasoned with a nice nutritional vitamin powder! 

Deb


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Now this thread is hilarious! Thanks Ed and Dave!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Just use a lot of cracked pepper in your recipes.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

salix said:


> Okay, this makes me just that much happier to be a home canner for all our fruit/tomatoes/jams, etc.
> 
> And commercial Fig Newtons are OUT! 13+ insect heads per 100 grams!? Ewww, I know, it's just protein and I constantly pick ff's out of whatever I bring with me to the frog room to drink while I'm working. But at least there they've been seasoned with a nice nutritional vitamin powder!
> 
> Deb


 
I do a lot of home canning and I've always seen flies etc trying to get into the fruit and stuff while I'm prepping it.. Don't forget that there are lots of small things you don't see in the sugar, and other things used to can... 

I had a hard time keeping the fruit flies out of the salsa and green tomato chutney as they wanted to access the vinegar. 

I knew a farmer when I was little who when he would run across a worm in a fresh picked apple he would just keep right on eating it.. .

Ed


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## salix (Mar 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> I do a lot of home canning and I've always seen flies etc trying to get into the fruit and stuff while I'm prepping it.. Don't forget that there are lots of small things you don't see in the sugar, and other things used to can...
> 
> I had a hard time keeping the fruit flies out of the salsa and green tomato chutney as they wanted to access the vinegar.
> 
> ...


At least I've looked at the fruit, etc I put in the canning pot. Intellectually I know the processors just dump in the whole truck load.

And that reminds me of the old joke my dad would always tell. What's worse than finding a worm in your apple? Finding half a worm in your apple! 

Deb


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Ed said:


> You really don't have to add extras... just go down the list here and choose one that has a high level of permissible defects
> Defect Levels Handbook


thanks, Ed, ignorance was bliss....


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