# Appropriate occupants for swamp-type paludarium?



## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

I apologize if this is in the wrong section. First off, not really in the construction phase yet, but I'm musing about how to go about putting together a specific type of vivarium. What I'd like to do is create a paludarium modeled after a swamp - a few inches of water, with the land area composed of pieces of wood emerging from the aquatic portion. I've attached a picture of the type of habitat I'm referring to for clarity. I already know how I'd go about constructing it, my only concern is I'm not sure what I'd like to keep in it. I know there are several possibilities, but I'm having a hard time making up my mind. I guess what I'm asking is if you were to build a similar enclosure, what would you keep in it?


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

Shrimp or crabs. Vampire crabs are pretty cool. They're purple and yellow too!


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

depends on the enclosure size.

ive thought of doing a dendrophylax lindenii tank with some of FLs endemic tillys. which could be done in a 10 vert. 

fish will obviously work (catfish would be nice), as will turtles (which would however require a large tank) i could see a decent size catfish in a 40B though. with enough space an alligator snapper could be housed (although only as a grow out). its probably the hands down coolest swamp creature IMO. but, unfortunately a turtle that lives to 150 years, and gets 300lbs isnt exactly the type of animal that makes a good pet. there are some cool swamp type turtles that stay small though. like this Graptemys nigrinoda nigrinoda from the SE which lives in a few of its rivers.









james


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

james67 said:


> depends on the enclosure size.
> 
> ive thought of doing a dendrophylax lindenii tank with some of FLs endemic tillys. which could be done in a 10 vert.
> 
> ...


that turtle is amazing looking, almost like something from a giger print


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Regardless of what else goes in I will be seeding the tank with crystal shrimp as a type of aquatic micro-fauna.

As for enclosure size, I will more than likely be going with a 36x18x24 exo-terra tank. The door height provides an excellent marker for water depth and I like the aesthetics of the front-opening design.

I had considered turtles, and they are certainly an option, however if at all possible I'd prefer something a bit more personable that could be handled - that doesn't mean however that it shouldn't have a good "show" quality to it.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

as far as swamp animals go you really wont be able to handle anything that you could fit in a tank that size. i mean you CAN handle turtles, but i like to think they are more happy w/o our interacting with them in that way (particularly small turtles). and with a tank that has a top like that (rather than an open top layout) your really restricting the type of plants available as well. you could do a carolina anole tank but they are not "handleable" either.

with a more secure tank, the correct laws (in your area) and some land area a water moccasin would also be an interesting display animal as would a coral snake, both of which live in or adjacent to swamps.

do you have any idea as to what kind of animal your looking for?

james


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Snakes (particularly hots) are not an option. Personally I wouldn't mind having one, but I'd be worried of the stigma that comes with being a "snake owner".

Handleable is really an after-thought - it'd be nice, but if I found an animal that I liked well enough for a display, I could look past the interaction factor. My only worry with turtles other than handleability is their waste.

I'd prefer something that was semi-aquatic - something that would utilize both the aquatic portions of the tank and terrestrial. Newts and salamanders certainly come to mind, but none of them seem to really grab my attention thus far, other than the tiger salamander and from what I read they require more land area than would be provided in this type of enclosure.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

rudukai13 said:


> ..... but I'd be worried of the stigma that comes with being a "snake owner".....


what do you mean?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think before we get to animals we need to find out how you plan to control the water temperature and how you are going to keep it from stagnating. 

Turtles of any size (and babies will out grow that size space pretty quickly) are going to foul the water pretty quickly requiring frequent water changes or heavy filtration. 

Ed


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

There are simply quite a few people who are scared of snakes, and if I'm looking to create a display enclosure I'd like something that a large number of people would appreciate.

As for heating/filtering, the water portion will be filtered with a canister filter, and the water can be heated or cooled depending on the needs of the animal that I end up choosing.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Musk turtles!


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

I would be REALLY careful about designing this enclosure....as others have asked, how exactly do you plan on doing it? 


Do realize that Swamps are BREEDING GROUNDS for bacteria, algae, and the like. Controlling the growth of these things in an enclosed viv is going to be very, very hard....especially when you are purposely creating stagnant water.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

zBrinks said:


> Musk turtles!


If it wasn't for darts I would have musk turtles. I was about to get some but stumbled across dendroboard.

You might want mossy frogs


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I have 2 yearling musk turtles on my desk at work - they're very active, will eat from my hand, and very hardy!


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

im surprised nobody has mentioned fire belly toads yet. I think they're pretty sweet. They really don't need a big enclosure either.


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## frog22 (Sep 8, 2010)

Fire belly toads or a few leopard frogs would do really well in there.


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Let me clarify, when I say I want to make a swamp, I mean I want to create an enclosure that _looks_ like a swamp. The water will be filters, not stagnant, and will be changed on a regular basis.

Musk turtles are definitely a possibility, as are fire belly toads. My one concern with fire belly toads is that I hear they prefer only live food. While that's not necessarily a deal breaker, I would prefer not to have to keep crickets as well...


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

rudukai13 said:


> Let me clarify, when I say I want to make a swamp, I mean I want to create an enclosure that _looks_ like a swamp. The water will be filters, not stagnant, and will be changed on a regular basis.
> 
> Musk turtles are definitely a possibility, as are fire belly toads. My one concern with fire belly toads is that I hear they prefer only live food. While that's not necessarily a deal breaker, I would prefer not to have to keep crickets as well...


I don't blame you there. Crickets are expensive and i hear that they are difficult to breed and keep a steady population going. I bet FBT's could have a staple diet of d. hydei if you preferred though. 

As for the water feature part of your build, how many gallons of water will it approximately hold? If its under about 3, then water parameters fluctuations will be more dramatic which = more maintenance. If you have a larger volume of water, then algae, nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, etc will be less of a hassle for you. 

I know its a lot of work, but have you considered a sump system? you could drill 2 holes in the bottom of your tank. One would be an overflow leading into a ten gallon tank below the main one. In there you could house a heater, filter, thermometer, and all the other stuff you would need. Then, an aquarium powerhead would pump the filtered, heated water back into the main tank through the other hole. 

doing this is good for a couple reasons. You have more water which means your water parameters would fluctuate less making it easier to care for. also, you have your filter, heater, and everything else that takes up space out of sight. Just my $.02 though.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

ryan10517 said:


> . I bet FBT's could have a staple diet of d. hydei if you preferred though.


 I would not attempt to keep Bombina orientalis on a staple diet of hydei FFs. I have kept them for years, and can not see them doing well on that diet. They also tend to like shallower water (.5-1.5"), so that they can rest their feet on the bottom while keeping their eyes above the water.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ryan10517 said:


> I bet FBT's could have a staple diet of d. hydei if you preferred though.
> .


I'm with Zach I think you would have a hard time keeping the toads in good condition on a diet of hydei. Fire belly toads are adapted as a larger generalist prey feeder as is shown by thier feeding behaviors and adaptions to facilitate those behaviors. They don't have the adaptations to feed readily on such a small food item consistently. 

Ed


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks for clarifying that for me zbrinks and ed. I personally have never kept fire belly toads. The last thing i want is to give the OP (or anybody else for that matter) false information that could be harmful to their animals. Perhaps i should do a little more research next time


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! I would love to be able to keep a group of fire belly toads, the only thing really holding me back is the annoyance of crickets. Would it be possible to feed them a staple of guppies or earthworms? Otherwise I may look into getting a group of a smaller species of newts that could be maintained with a staple of bloodworms...


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

IMO, in order to find what inhabitants would work, you need to calculate how many gallons it will hold.

I've found that in to order to find the depth of the "resevior" on an exo[the part that holds water] you take the height of the exo, and divide by 4.8 [i.e. for a 18'' high exo, its roughly 3 3/4'' deep, which is correct]


SO, since you want to use a 36''X18''X24, the deepest the water can be is roughly 5 inches. so 36*18*5/231=14.025 but with "substrate", filter, fake vines/roots/trees/etc... it will probably end up being around 12.5 - 13 gallons MAX. but if a land area is added, it would maybe be 10-11 gallons

after a little research, these are what i think would work:

- 1 or 2 leopard frogs
- 1 musk turtle
- non-venemous water snake
- 2 to 3 fire bellied toads
- a few small semi-aquatic crabs [depending on type of crab]
- a couple spring peepers [please correct me if i'm wrong]


if you want something that'll use the whole cage, top to bottom:

- mossy frogs
- reed frogs
- garter snake? [it woud have to be atleast 50% land]


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Of the animals on that list, I'd be most interested in mossy frogs or fire belly toads, but again my concern is having to maintain crickets as a staple as well. Additionally, if someone might be able to suggest a brighter colored newt species that would be appropriate, that might sway my opinions. I'd prefer something other than fire belly newts, as I feel they're a bit too bland in their coloring...


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## neonr0se (Feb 16, 2011)

Neat idea! 
Personally I'd keep a musk turtle in it, but thats just me


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hm...I might try going for a larger regular aquarium to be able to provide a larger water area and worry less about waste accumulating in the aquatic portion. Plus it'd provide just a larger overall area to maintain an animal. Think something like a 90 gallon would be the perfect size...


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## REBEL_PAWS (Dec 26, 2010)

U ever thought of building a mangrove tank? With fish and coral. Or a brackish mangrove.


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

It had crossed my mind but for some reason a fw swamp enclosure with some type of amphibian is more appealing to me.

Borrowing a bit from another thread, would this type of enclosure work for a kaiser newt? I love the look of them and think they'd contrast well with the overall look of the tank.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

rudukai13 said:


> It had crossed my mind but for some reason a fw swamp enclosure with some type of amphibian is more appealing to me.
> 
> Borrowing a bit from another thread, would this type of enclosure work for a kaiser newt? I love the look of them and think they'd contrast well with the overall look of the tank.


It would but they won't use the land area much, and you will want to increase the water depth to at least 6". Try and keep the temps at below 75 degrees year round and in the low 60's in the winter if you would like to attempt breeding.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

Diadophis p. punctatus.

would work and they can be handled. i didnt think about them until just now  you'd need a decent land area though.

james


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

I vote for a Mata Mata turtle. Those guys are pretty badass!

Very impressive species especially once they get some hefty size to them.

-Matt


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## Morgan Freeman (Feb 26, 2009)

What about newts or salamanders?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

McBobs said:


> I vote for a Mata Mata turtle. Those guys are pretty badass!
> 
> Very impressive species especially once they get some hefty size to them.
> 
> -Matt


Would never work in anything smaller than a kiddie wading pool. The adults get to damn big for most tanks.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

Good point. I had it in my head that this was going to be a very large aquarium. That and the photo at the beginning made me think LARGE style viv. 

Oh well... Would have been cool.

In that case, I highly recommend mossy frogs. They're about bullet proof as tadpoles and very hardy adults. You might even get lucky and snag a female if you get juveniles or tadpoles to begin with.

-Matt


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

This is just a suggestion, but I think a mangrove swamp with mudskippers would be cool. It would just require some research. I'm not too sure if they would really utilize the whole tank though, I think I remember some videos of them climbing trees in addition to the usual sanbars...


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## slipperheads (Oct 17, 2007)

vietnamese mossys would look amazing in something like that


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Mata Mata is out, the largest I'd be able to go is a tank about 100 gallons, and preferably something a bit smaller than that.

The more I think about it the more I'd like to go with a decent sized grouping of some kind of newt. So...Any suggestions for mostly aquatic newts? Would prefer something brightly colored...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Your going to have to commit to keeping them cool (less than 75 and below 70 is more optimal).. as most caudates do not tolerate temperatures above that range well for long periods. Lighting on the tank is going to bring up the temperature inside the tank. I would suggest looking at pictures of Cynops ensicauda ensicauda and Cynops ensicauda popei as both of those readily take temperatures a little over 80 F without any issues. Other options are going to be Cynops cyanurus or some of the Southern Notopthalmus ssp. 

Ed


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Ed, thanks! I'll definitely take a look at those species. If anyone else has any suggestions either please post up!


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

rudukai13 said:


> Ed, thanks! I'll definitely take a look at those species. If anyone else has any suggestions either please post up!


Spanish Ribbed Newts would also be able to tolerate heat fairly well, they are large(for newts), outgoing and even available in a leucistic form if the wild coloration doesn't cut it for you.


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Spanish Ribbed newts are certainly another option. Looks like I just need to do a bit more research for myself to figure out what I want to end up going with.


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## Lilypad87 (Feb 21, 2007)

Just an idea since you are going for the "swamp look", maybe try the blackwater extract used for piranhas or similar Amazon fish? Ive used it in a 55 gallon tanking holding pacus and other Amazon species, looked great has that "murky" sort of look to it but the water was still clean and being run through a filter.


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## kylesmoney (Mar 29, 2010)

Lilypad87 said:


> Just an idea since you are going for the "swamp look", maybe try the blackwater extract used for piranhas or similar Amazon fish? Ive used it in a 55 gallon tanking holding pacus and other Amazon species, looked great has that "murky" sort of look to it but the water was still clean and being run through a filter.


Do the fish actually prefer this? I can see how they would if its a more natural thing for them but doesn't it make them harder to see too?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

blackwater tanks generally ARE more difficult to see into. although in nature the rivers and streams where many fish come from are heavily saturated with sediment (like solimoes in the amazon) or tannins, (like the rio *****) these things however are not what we are accustom to seeing in aquaria. as the community at large sees it (and by that i mean the people who professionally design and judge aquaria) some tannins (blackwater) is great. too much and you loose some depth to the tank. and as far as sediment, while its very natural, its just plain ugly and should be avoided. 

heres one of my favorite examples of a blackwater tank (i did not make this tank!!!):










inhabitants:


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## leuc11 (Nov 1, 2010)

Get some mudskippers they are the perfect paludarium pet and live both in and out of the water. just make sure you have brackish water from1.003-1.004


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

james67 said:


> blackwater tanks generally ARE more difficult to see into. although in nature the rivers and streams where many fish come from are heavily saturated with sediment (like solimoes in the amazon) or tannins, (like the rio *****) these things however are not what we are accustom to seeing in aquaria. as the community at large sees it (and by that i mean the people who professionally design and judge aquaria) some tannins (blackwater) is great. too much and you loose some depth to the tank. and as far as sediment, while its very natural, its just plain ugly and should be avoided.
> 
> heres one of my favorite examples of a blackwater tank (i did not make this tank!!!):
> 
> ...


That's just about exactly the look I'm going for, just with an emersed portion as well. So take that tank, add a bit more driftwood, and drop the water level to half and it'd be just about perfect!


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

You could try a mangrove swamp tank with Indian Dwarf mudskippers, fiddler crabs, and some small brackish tolerant fish (I used Endler's livebearers, the fry made for nutritious snacks for the skippers)... I miss the setup I used to have, it will always be one of my all-time favorite tanks, and I definitely plan on doing it again.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Would this work?


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Assuming the tank is large enough, what about some sort of siren or amphiuma? That would be the first thing I'd want to try in a setup like that.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Other than A. pholeter, and the genus Pseudobranchus, you would need a very large tank due to the size of the animals in the long run. Also the larger Sirens and Amphiumas are likely to prey on anything else in the tank and there is a risk that if Greater Sirens are used that they will consume plants (see http://accstr.ufl.edu/publications/Pryor_et_al_JHerp2006.pdf) that are come into the water. 

Ed


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

In terms of a mangrove swamp, I'd rather keep it freshwater as that's the environment I prefer to emulate and due to ease of maintanence.

ExoticPocket, that's somewhat the look that I'm going for but not quite.

I had considered trying to find a lesser siren, as I think anything much larger than that would simply require too much water volume to fit into the proper sized tank that I'm wanting.

I've also recently been considering a Swamp Snake - Seminatrix pygaea (yes, my views on snake ownership have changed somewhat), as it appears they would appreciate the extremely aquatic environment I'm attempting to create. They also stay relatively small and can be maintained on a staple of small fish, earthworms and the occasional tadpole or two.


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Go on kingsnake.com. While they are most likley WC there are ads for sirens. Have you considered a mudpuppy?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rudukai13 said:


> I had considered trying to find a lesser siren, as I think anything much larger than that would simply require too much water volume to fit into the proper sized tank that I'm wanting.


Lesser Sirens are surprisingly large for being called lesser... as they can reach 27 inches in length (see Caudata Culture Species Entry - Siren intermedia ) 



rudukai13 said:


> I've also recently been considering a Swamp Snake - Seminatrix pygaea (yes, my views on snake ownership have changed somewhat), as it appears they would appreciate the extremely aquatic environment I'm attempting to create. They also stay relatively small and can be maintained on a staple of small fish, earthworms and the occasional tadpole or two.


In captivity, species like this that are primarily aquatic should still have access to dry areas in which to bask as well as aquatic areas with a basking light.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

rudukai13 said:


> In terms of a mangrove swamp, I'd rather keep it freshwater as that's the environment I prefer to emulate and due to ease of maintanence.
> 
> ExoticPocket, that's somewhat the look that I'm going for but not quite.
> 
> ...


Yes, the lesser siren was pretty much what I was trying to get at.

If you're changing your tune for the snakes, what about a tentacled snake (Erpeton tentaculatum)?


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Tentacled snakes are another option, though I've heard they are notoriously difficult to maintain in captivity?


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## rudukai13 (Jul 22, 2010)

Ed, if I do end up going with any kind of semi aquatic species I will be certain to build enough of a dry land area with the appropriate basking equipment. While I do have an idea for how I want to set up the enclosure, the animal's best interest is still my first and foremost concern.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rudukai13 said:


> Ed, if I do end up going with any kind of semi aquatic species I will be certain to build enough of a dry land area with the appropriate basking equipment. While I do have an idea for how I want to set up the enclosure, the animal's best interest is still my first and foremost concern.


If you went with tentacled snakes, they are totally aquatic,so no dry area is required. Only the wild caught animals are difficult to take care of, captive bred animals that haven't been shipped totally dry do very well. Captive bred/born animals do show up from time to time and typically do very well. 

Ed


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## sarahatl (Jun 22, 2011)

Interesting idea! What have you thought about for filtration? I do like the idea of a sump and perhaps even a canister filter or would that be over kill?
Also, what kind of back ground are you doing ? How do you plan on separting the land from the water?


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## sarahatl (Jun 22, 2011)

Any updates on this tank?


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## swampy459 (Jun 18, 2009)

EvilLost said:


> I would be REALLY careful about designing this enclosure....as others have asked, how exactly do you plan on doing it?
> 
> 
> Do realize that Swamps are BREEDING GROUNDS for bacteria, algae, and the like. Controlling the growth of these things in an enclosed viv is going to be very, very hard....especially when you are purposely creating stagnant water.


Swamp does not equal stagnant.

Most swamps have extremely active biological and chemical filtration processes constantly churning the water. All those aquatic plants and algae are constantly taking in CO2 and spouting out copious amounts of oxygen while at the same time moving the water constantly.

Tannins from decaying oak and cypress kill most of the bacteria that are associated with "stagnant" water.

The water in the Okefenokee Swamp is, to this day, clean enough to drink and I have done so several times with no ill effects!!

Swamps are absolutely one of the last real clean places left on this earth.


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

wow this thread has been going on for a while... im interested to see where it goes after i contemplated doing this as a biotope (plant only) for my dendrophylax lindenii


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