# Pumilio going to die?



## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

I noticed my blue jeans male on the ground of his enclosure looking a bit skinny. I noticed him today as well, when he went to go climb a leaf in the tank he fell onto his back and just stayed there. He has been extremely lethargic.

I quickly set up a quarantine 10G tank and pulled the pair out and put them in there. The female is fat and very active. The male barely moves when picked up and has not moved in the 2 hours he has been in the new tank. He is holding himself upright but that's about it. I suspect he might not make it through the night. If anybody has any suggestions if he is still alive tomorrow or please please help. The same thing happened to my male Azureus about 5 months ago right before he died.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Contact dr frye. Hopefully he can make it long enough to run fecals or explain to him issue. Type up rich frye and dr frye and you should get a link. Good luck bud


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Seperate the pair If the male does have something you dont want it given to the female.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

saruchan said:


> Seperate the pair If the male does have something you dont want it given to the female.


Since they were housed together, anything infectious was probably already passed on to the female. There is something going on since a different frog was lost with the same symptoms several months prior to this incidence.


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Update: Got home early from work today and the frog is still alive. He is in much worse shape and is no longer even holding himself up. I'm positive he is not going to make it. 

My usual vet is in the process of moving to a new office and is unavailable. I have been calling all area vets to see if they can help me and only 1 so far (Dr. Burgis) would even see this type of animal and are booked. 
*Just got off the phone with another clinic in Washington who will see the frog but has no experience in PDF's. He said he would euthanize the frog and send it for a necropsy to Monroe WA which would cost around $100-$150 . 

I spoke to a receptionist at another clinic who is a recovering PDF addict and she was going to send me the info for Oregon State University necropsy protocol. 

Not sure what to do. I figure at this point the frog is as good as dead and will need a necropsy. I have access to formalin and I figure if I'm going to send it off I might as well send it to Dr. Frye (these are Frye line BJ's too). I'm going to e-mail him now. 

My main concern now is this, it won't be until tomorrow when I get the formalin. Should I let little buddy hang on as much as he can or should I euthanize him now (with a drop of lidocaine) and refrigerate him until I can introduce him into the fromalin? Any other advice? I appreciate the advice of those of you who chimed in. Thanks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

You should find out what each necropsy is going to give you. You are going to need histopathology to rule out a number of issues such as chytrid. A gross necropsy may point an issue but there may be several things going on that may be missed without the histopathology. 
I would be very concerned since if I remember correctly you had an issue very similar to this with another species. Many vets send out exotics to Northwest ZooPath - Specializing in the Pathology of nondomestic species (which is what many Zoos use). 

Ed


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

Thanks Ed. That must be the place. I hope his quote was right as the posted price seems to be double that. I am concerned and plan to get a necropsy. I e-mailed Dr. Frye as well about sending it out to him to get it done. I might end up just going in to the clinic tonight to get it euthanized and sent off.

The similar issue I had was with the male of a pair of azureus who was also very lethargic for 2 days before he died. He displayed a bit more erratic behavior then I observed with this one prior to death. It seemed to have a pretty fast onset. The female that was cohabiting with him has remained very healthy and is breeding with another male.

Two days ago was the first time I had even seen the male pumilio in weeks so I am not sure how long this has been going on with him.


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

If I remember correctly Dr. Frye does not do necropsy's now.
However, it does not hurt to ask.


-Beth


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## BrainBug (Aug 25, 2010)

When I checked in on the little guy Friday to my amazement he looked perfect. That's right, fat and happy and jumping around and looking as if nothing ever happened. 

I had noticed him on the ground of his tank looking a bit slim Tuesday the 12th. 

On the 13th I noticed him again the ground of his enclosure very lethargic and he fell over on his back when trying to climb on his cocohut. I moved both he and the female to a 10G quarantine. 

On the 14th and 15th he was immobile, just splayed out limp, barely keeping his head up, I thought for sure he was a goner and I was extremely close to euthanizing him. I had necropsy paperwork filled out ready to go. I had talked to a couple of vets on the 14th who both said that he would probably have to be euthanized If I took him in.

On the 16th, per recommendation of a helpful member here I moved him into a 24oz tupperware with a moist paper towel, film canister and a leaf.
At about this point I decided I would let him pass and not euthanize him.

On the 17th I checked on him, he had not moved at all, his wrists where crimped in and his back legs splayed out, he was now very skinny. I put about 10 flies dusted with repashy calcium in and hoped for a miracle.

On the 18th he still had not moved but he looked a bit fatter and it seemed like a few flies might have been missing. I figured it was swelling from predeath ascites. 

On the 19th it looked like he might have moved about an inch, off of the leaf. His limbs were still not moving, his back legs still splayed out and his front still folded in. I moved him into another 24oz tupperware with a fresh paper towel and moved the leaf and canister with him.

On the 20th after speaking with the gentlemen who I got the frogs from and describing the symptoms he said it sounded like a calcium deficiency and the frog was probably doomed. I figured at this point there was nothing I could do that could make the situation worse so I got a sterile cotton swab, moistened it and dipped it in Repashy Calcium +ICB and rubbed some on his back then misted most of it off with the intention being that it would create a diluted topical calcium agent. I put about 15 more dusted flies in with him.

By the 21st he had moved into the film canister but was still in a laying position.

On the 22nd I checked in on him and he was upright, healthy looking and hopping around. I watched him a couple hours then introduced him back into the 10g quarantine.

Today is the 24th and he and the female both seem to be doing well.

I spoke once more with the guy I got them from and he said that it was probably a spider bite and the venom just ran it's course. It's very plausible as when I was gutting the tank I did notice several small spiders (thin legs and large buts, about the side of a Hydei.) Whatever it was I am blown away that he made such an astounding recovery, I have never seen a small animal in such horrible shape come back from the brink of death like that.

Thanks everyone for your advice. I'll post some before and after pictures soon.


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## cairo11 (Jan 8, 2011)

Wooho!!! Thats right! Froglets from that little soldier whem ready. Congrats


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That is so great to hear! You still may want to consider getting fecals done, just to make sure there is not another problem.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Pumilo said:


> That is so great to hear! You still may want to consider getting fecals done, just to make sure there is not another problem.


Definitely, send in some fecals, they're $18 and it's worth knowing so you don't lose him. It wouldn't be the first time a frog seemed to be making a turnaround and then ended up passing away. 

Could it possibly have been a heat issue?


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