# New to the fabulous world of dart frogs



## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

Hi, everyone. I come from aquariums, fish keeping, shrimp keeping, and aquatic plant growing, so I thought getting into dart frogs would be fun, if not also completely dreadful for my wallet. But hey, hobbies are hobbies, right?










I got myself a 65 gallon tank. I'll be setting up a false bottom before I start working on the background. I'm in search of good wood pieces, and I plan to make a waterfall with an aquatic portion at the level of the false bottom.










Regarding the background, I've read that Great Stuff doesn't stay permanently bonded to glass. This isn't a huge issue for me as I am thinking of not building the background directly onto the tank in case I ever want to take it out or replace it. Does Great Stuff bond well to acrylic or other plastics? Also, how do people make realistic looking fake rocks with Great Stuff? What paints, resins, etc. do people use? I've never been much of DIYer, but I'm slowly getting into it.

All this new flora and fauna for me to learn about... I'm excited! It's awesome that I can use some of the plants that I'm familiar with in the aquatic world that have emersed forms, i.e., anubias, hydrocotyle, microsorum, crytocoryne, bolbitus, ranunculus, hemianthus, eriocaulon, bucephalandra, etc. Creating that aquatic portion of the vivarium is going to be fun.

And dart frogs! I'm thinking Ranitomeya imitator 'Varadero' as my first? How difficult are they? I love spots and I love orange, so these little guys are perfect.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Hey, welcome! I don't have answers to most of your questions, but here is a great article on the care for imitators:

Frog Forum - Imitating Dart Frog, Ranitomeya imitator / Dendrobates imitator (Schulte, 1986) - Care and Breeding

I think I've read on the site that many people are quite successful with imis as their first frogs, so best of luck!


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> Hey, welcome! I don't have answers to most of your questions, but here is a great article on the care for imitators:
> 
> Frog Forum - Imitating Dart Frog, Ranitomeya imitator / Dendrobates imitator (Schulte, 1986) - Care and Breeding
> 
> I think I've read on the site that many people are quite successful with imis as their first frogs, so best of luck!


Thanks for the link! It seems to me that the "difficulty" of dart frog care mostly refers to the difficulty of successfully breeding them. Is this correct? And in general, juvenile/adult frogs are pretty hardy?


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## Amphibian addict (May 15, 2012)

outrageouslyfabulous said:


> Thanks for the link! It seems to me that the "difficulty" of dart frog care mostly refers to the difficulty of successfully breeding them. Is this correct? And in general, juvenile/adult frogs are pretty hardy?


I keep a few different phenotypes, and for the most part they are resilient frogs. And breeding wise, i have a decent amount of eggs coming through so if the tank's good, i'm sure they'll lay for you.


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

Amphibian addict said:


> I keep a few different phenotypes, and for the most part they are resilient frogs. And breeding wise, i have a decent amount of eggs coming through so if the tank's good, i'm sure they'll lay for you.


That's good news. Can't wait to get started building this thing.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

outrageouslyfabulous said:


> Thanks for the link! It seems to me that the "difficulty" of dart frog care mostly refers to the difficulty of successfully breeding them. Is this correct? And in general, juvenile/adult frogs are pretty hardy?


Yes, this is what I've come to understand of the difficulty as well, since most of the adult frogs in the hobby are kept in pretty much the same way.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Crumbling Ruins is a fantastic thread for realistic rocks. He explains the process further down. Good luck with the viv!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Welcome! 

Yes I think it's mostly about breeding. However, it is also about size and speed of the frog vs how fast we can slam the tank door shut.


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

I won't worry about breeding frogs just yet, but it's good to know it's not too difficult. 

I'm really interested in flora. Is there a list of suitable plant species for vivariums, with pictures and descriptions of size, requirements, and such? I'm also a bit of a moss and fern snob.


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## GP dynamite (Feb 19, 2013)

Imis are great dart frog to keep. I'm assuming by the size of your selected tank that you're looking for a group. Be forewarned that imitators are territorial and females will eat eggs. Groups can be successful kept in large enclosures so long as you provide breaks in line of sight with wood, plants leaf litter background. Aggression in darts causes stress. If we don't identify aggression in time, it will definitely lead to the demise of the frog. 

Thumbnails are fun frogs and if you're set on starting with ranitomeya, may I suggest a more group oriented frog such as Amazonica formerly know as ventrimaculatus or variabilis. You still have to watch for aggression but likelihood of success is much greater. 

I don't know of a plant list but anything non toxic and tropical will fit the bill. Most ferns that i know of are acceptable as well as mosses. 

One way to ensure adhesion to acrylic or other canvas for a background is to rub either titebond or silicone to the surface first. This creates a tacky and uneven surface for the GS to adhere to. Best of luck and keep us posted on your build.


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

WELCOME!!!!!!! Glad to see a convert Ready for a real hobby. Just kidding I love aquascapes. Really I do. there is an amazing amount of plant life that can be placed in a viv. I don't have one myself But when my life stops falling apart . I have plans OH YES I have plans. Lol. But I have been looking at vivs for years off and on. and over the past year read.read.read.and oh yeah read more. About dart care. And viv setup. You will not be disappointed with what you find. Best advice I can give you. 1. This forum is full of great people with a ton of knowledge. Best part is 99% of them are more than happy to help.or answer any questions that you could possibly have. 2. If you want to know some of things you can plant. You can check some of the sponsors. And see what they have available. And other members can expand greatly on that. If you can find local people you may be able help take some stress of your wallet also. Ok I'll stop typing now. Again welcome and I hope you enjoy this hobby as much as I do (thru everyone on this forum. Thanks everyone.)


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Heh, the flora and designing vivariums are the best part of the hobby after the frogs!

The forum sponsors have lots of viv friendly plants for sale (Dendroboard.com - Sponsors). Moss and ferns are very widely used in dart frog vivariums. Another favorite are orchids. I think my favorite two plants in my viv are heart fern and the jewel orchid macodes petola.

Black Jungle actually has a section on their website of " Vivarium Plants ...for Dart Frog Habitats" (...for Dart Frog Habitats) where you can get some plant ideas. You might also get some more ideas looking at member's vivs -- Member's Frogs & Vivariums - Dendroboard Parts & Construction - Dendroboard


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Welcome to dart frogs. It seems to me that froggers who come from an fish keeping background tend to do pretty well with frogs. Best of luck to you. Welcome to the addiction.


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## Athena (Mar 20, 2013)

outrageouslyfabulous said:


> I'm really interested in flora. Is there a list of suitable plant species for vivariums, with pictures and descriptions of size, requirements, and such? I'm also a bit of a moss and fern snob.


Holla!!! Now you're talking my language! I plan to make a bryophyte, lycophyte, and pteridophytes only tank... *ANGIOSPERMS NOT INVITED!!!!* Hehehe, but seriously, there are a remarkable number of plants "in the hobby," and even more that could be....

Go here for droolage: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/26599-what-have-you-got-foliage.html

As far as what's "right" think new world tropics in wet tropical to moist/wet montane. 
(cool map here explaining wth I mean by this --> Map! and a site explaining what that map means --> Huh? 
Holdridge... thou art a genius! RIP buddy. Basically tropical plant distribution can be determined really, scarily, well by three factors: altitude, annual precipitation and humidity. 

Oh and this guy figured it out in 1947. He's still right.)

As far as what "works", most people prefer slower growers and small(ish) size.

So asplenium... duh.


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## BenW (Apr 23, 2013)

You have some nice aquascapes.Having planted aquariums will seem like so much work after your first frog tank.


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

Got some new manzanita wood in. Don't mind the incomplete false bottom.


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## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

outrageouslyfabulous said:


> Got some new manzanita wood in. Don't mind the incomplete false bottom.


That is an interesting piece of wood.

I can't wait for more pics you are really good with aquascaping.

I have never seen an "Amano Aquarium" outside of magazines.

They seem impossible to me.

How hard is it to do that?


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

that Frog Guy said:


> That is an interesting piece of wood.
> 
> I can't wait for more pics you are really good with aquascaping.
> 
> ...


Thanks! There are actually 4 pieces of wood in there. It's just a preliminary design, but now I can start working on incorporating a background. 

There are many people who have had success with Amano scapes. It takes a lot of time and maintenance. Low foreground plants that are often used for that vast grass-like image take time to grow and require high CO2 injection, which then leads to mandatory high lighting and regulated fert dosing. Constant water changes are necessary to remove the excess nutrients in the water column to prevent the growth of algae. Once algae takes hold, it can be extremely difficult to eliminate. Lots of maintenance. I prefer a more dutch, low light/maintenance style with low demanding plants like mosses and ferns.


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## that Frog Guy (May 13, 2012)

outrageouslyfabulous said:


> Thanks! There are actually 4 pieces of wood in there. It's just a preliminary design, but now I can start working on incorporating a background.
> 
> There are many people who have had success with Amano scapes. It takes a lot of time and maintenance. Low foreground plants that are often used for that vast grass-like image take time to grow and require high CO2 injection, which then leads to mandatory high lighting and regulated fert dosing. Constant water changes are necessary to remove the excess nutrients in the water column to prevent the growth of algae. Once algae takes hold, it can be extremely difficult to eliminate. Lots of maintenance. I prefer a more dutch, low light/maintenance style with low demanding plants like mosses and ferns.


*I have two questions*

So basically you have to have a CO2 Machine to do an "Amano Aquarium"?
It is impossible to do it without one?

And where do you get your Plants?

I never see the short "Amano" Plants at any of the LFS (Local Fish Stores) here in Michigan.

Do you have to order the small plants online or can you find them in stores?


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

that Frog Guy said:


> *I have two questions*
> 
> So basically you have to have a CO2 Machine to do an "Amano Aquarium"?
> It is impossible to do it without one?
> ...


If your're talking about the standard Iwagumi layout, where plants like Hemianthus callitrichoides, Utricularia graminifolia, dwarf Eleocharis sp., etc., are commonly used, then CO2 injection is pretty much mandatory. They require high CO2 levels, adequate fert dosing (of both the water column and substrate), and high light to thrive and create that nice, thick, green landscape that you see in Iwagumi aquascapes. However, you can achieve a similar look with mosses and liverworts that are less demanding, but in any case, CO2 injection would still be beneficial. 

There are quite a few places online where you can purchase aquatic plants, but given the choice, I would choose to deal with hobbists. You could probably get plants from local people or simply visit sites like plantedforums.net for their sale forums. You can also learn a bit about Iwagumi/Amano style layouts, plants, and general planted fish keeping there, as well as look around people's aquarium journals for inspiration and tips.


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

Speaking of where to buy aquarium plants online, where can I buy vivarium/terrarium plants online?


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

outrageouslyfabulous said:


> where can I buy vivarium/terrarium plants online?


Several vendors here on Dendroboard sell terrarium/vivarium plants, check out the "Plants and Supplies" classifieds section.


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

jacobi said:


> Several vendors here on Dendroboard sell terrarium/vivarium plants, check out the "Plants and Supplies" classifieds section.


Are there specific websites that sell plants? Being new to the hobby, pictures and descriptions of plants would be helpful. I easily get lost in long lists of scientific names with no images.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Most (if not all) of the sponsors sell plants. See my previous post:



hypostatic said:


> The forum sponsors have lots of viv friendly plants for sale (Dendroboard.com - Sponsors). Moss and ferns are very widely used in dart frog vivariums. Another favorite are orchids. I think my favorite two plants in my viv are heart fern and the jewel orchid macodes petola.
> 
> Black Jungle actually has a section on their website of " Vivarium Plants ...for Dart Frog Habitats" (...for Dart Frog Habitats) where you can get some plant ideas. You might also get some more ideas looking at member's vivs -- Member's Frogs & Vivariums - Dendroboard Parts & Construction - Dendroboard


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> Most (if not all) of the sponsors sell plants. See my previous post:


Hmm, nothing shows up when I click on the sponsors page.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Ah, you must have adblock enabled  . If you disable it you'll see all the sponsors.


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## outrageouslyfabulous (Feb 5, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> Ah, you must have adblock enabled  . If you disable it you'll see all the sponsors.


LOL, that did the trick. First time I've ever had to disable Adblock. Thanks!


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You should post pics of your build when you get started -- I'm sure people would love to see it


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