# I don't get how you handle fruit flies



## Patricia1234 (May 1, 2012)

So I got a Josh's FF starter and I had to transfer them outside because they were climbing out in what seemed to be by the hundreds!?!??!?! How do you transfer them from cup to tank inside without them going everywhere? Because I have no froglets yet perhaps my huge colony would have been more manageable if they the current flies had been becoming supper daily?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Patricia1234 said:


> So I got a Josh's FF starter and I had to transfer them outside because they were climbing out in what seemed to be by the hundreds!?!??!?! How do you transfer them from cup to tank inside without them going everywhere? Because I have no froglets yet perhaps my huge colony would have been more manageable if they the current flies had been becoming supper daily?


When the lid is on tap it on the counter several times until they are all at the bottom. Quickly take the lid off and tap them into the feeding cup. It helps if you have powder in the feeding cup as it helps keep them from climbing out. Practice a few times outside or over a sink with hot water flowing. You will get the hang of it


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## Patricia1234 (May 1, 2012)

I tapped it like 5 times and BOOM up to the top they roared!!! Fast little bleepers.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Here you go, and note how if the top of the FF culture is off you are either dumping flies or tapping it on the table...


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

it doesn't matter what you do. some are bound to have some escape. it comes with the hobby. you can always tap the lid before you open it to reduce the numbers of the escapees, but still, some will get out. there is something you can to to attract and kill the flies is to get a shallow bowl and put some white wine into it and then some dish soap. the wine to attract the flies and the dish soap to trap them. it worked pretty well for me.


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## heckler (Dec 28, 2011)

Ive found that while holding it, if you gently shake it and let your pinky finger tap the cup, it prevents many from escape. I still get the odd fly out here or there, but I get next to no escapes most of the time


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

Put the culture in the fridge for 2 or 3 minutes before feeding out ... the cooler temps will slow them down enough for you to safely feed out without having to worry about escapees.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Gamble said:


> Put the culture in the fridge for 2 or 3 minutes before feeding out ... the cooler temps will slow them down enough for you to safely feed out without having to worry about escapees.


I just go outside or do it over the sink. My frogs and I could potentially be homeless if "you know who" opened the fridge and saw a fly culture. I still have to hear, "that is disgusting" whenever I feed, even after all this time.


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## Gamble (Aug 1, 2010)

jeeperrs said:


> I just go outside or do it over the sink. My frogs and I could potentially be homeless if "you know who" opened the fridge and saw a fly culture. I still have to hear, "that is disgusting" whenever I feed, even after all this time.


Just explain ... "would u rather the flies be in here for a couple minutes, or have them crawling all over the house?" ... im sure she will be a little more agreeable then.


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## Ozydego (Mar 26, 2012)

or she could say I want neither.... in my very short experience, tapping the cup side with 2 fingers really keeps themstuck in the bottom... its the container I am pouring into that I have the issue... I already am thinking about a vibration plate to keep them in the container that I am putting them in...


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## XxExoticPsychExX (Mar 12, 2012)

Ozydego said:


> ... its the container I am pouring into that I have the issue... I already am thinking about a vibration plate to keep them in the container that I am putting them in...



This is what I do:

1. Cut a water bottle in half and use only the bottom half (empty of course).
2. Pour a little bit of supplement into the bottom half of the cut water bottle.
3. Tap fruit flies into bottom half of the cut water bottle.
4. After closing main fruit fly culture, swirl fruit flies around in the half cut water bottle.
5. Tap supplement covered fruit flies into viv.

I have found that putting some supplement into the feeding container first before tapping fruit flies into it will drastically help to curb their escape. They get so covered in the powder upon impact that they are unable to do anything else except try to take it off while others are helplessly rolling around. 

Mwuahahaha


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

Here is my technique.

I use an iced tea bottle, Like Snapple, with the wider mouth. I put in some powder. Then I use a funnel in the top and tap in the flies. I bang the funnel a bit as flies go in. Once in the bottle, I shake and swirl a bit to get them dusted. Then I tip the bottle on its side for a bit, allowing the flies to get out of the powder some. Then I tip and tap them out into the terrarium and lose very little loose powder. I leave remaining powder in the bottle for next feeding.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gamble said:


> Put the culture in the fridge for 2 or 3 minutes before feeding out ... the cooler temps will slow them down enough for you to safely feed out without having to worry about escapees.


Becareful when using this method since if you forget them you can do some real damage to the culture. 

A wide mouth funnel of some form is a good investment. I use a vial that fits tightly to the end of a large funnel and then for additional support, I place it into a fruit fly cup. The whole thing goes into the sink since escapees (and/or catestrophic failure (spilling the collected flies)) can be contained with a little hot water. I shaply tap the base of the culture onto the counter and then tap the side several times to knock any of the flies down to the bottom, pop the top and invert the culture. Make sure to squeeze the container a little above the level of the media to prevent the media from seperating and falling as a solid chunk down into the funnel (one of the catestrophic failures...). Rinse any escapees down with the hot tap water (which kills the flies) take care to not get the collected flies too hot since this can sterilize them (which can mess up making new cultures) or kill them. Cap and head to the container to feed the frogs (when you get some). 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I leave remaining powder in the bottle for next feeding.


Left over supplements should be discarded since 

1) very few supplements are of an even particle size so you can significantly change the ratio of the vitamins and minerals between placing the supplement into the cup 

2) supplements degrade more rapidly when exposed to excess moisture (respiration etc from the flies), and if the container is left in the frog room, increased temperatures further speed the oxidation (some of which are catalyzed by the minerals), which can further skew the ratios of the vitamins and minerals in the supplement. 

Ed


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Ed said:


> The whole thing goes into the sink since escapees (and/or catestrophic failure (spilling the collected flies)) can be contained with a little hot water.
> 
> Ed


God, don"t you hate the slow motion as you spill a cup full of hundreds of flies. 

I use a 14"x14" tupperware under my feed cup. I hold my culture more sideways and tap them down to one side of the cup. I hold tapped cup sideways over supplement cup that is sitting in the tupperware. Remove lid, and most fall right into the cup. A few quick taps then replace lid, put the culture back quickly. The flies that missed the cup "should", if you are fast, still be in the tupperware. Just tap them into the supplement cup. Like everyone has said, supplements in the cup will slow them down climbing. If i am feeding hydei, once they are in the supp cup I will throw them in the freezer for a min before feeding them to the frogs to slow them down a bit. Otherwise they are fast up the glass. You might want to use a lid because they will get to the top of the cup before the cold shuts them down and wives dont like them in the freezer, dead or not. Master mels first before you even think about hydei, they are next to impossible to contain and they are fast.


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I once forgot to seal the lid on a booming culture. They were Hydei and I think every single one was above the table on the ceiling.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

I do something similar to what I think Ed is describing. As you can see in the picture, I have a funnel and a plastic test tube holder. I've changed my method from when this picture was taken to further reduce the number or flies that used to escape from trying to shake them into the small red funnel. I picked up a much larger funnel at an auto parts store that allows the entire fly container to fit inside the opening. The lager funnel allows me to shake the fruit fly container from side to side indies the funnel opening so virtually no flies escape, I then transfer the dusted flies into the test tube via the smaller funnel. I can screw a lid on the test tube and carry it in my pocket to feed at will. Note: you can only leave them in a closed test tube for 5 minutes before they start dying.
Brian


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

How do you keep from pouring excess powder into the viv? That is what I had issue with. The tea bottle helps, but isn't perfect. 

I don't always dust my flies, never dust the mels because they are too hard to separate from the excess powder. I do also keep the excess powder in the jar. I don't worry about fly breath contaminating it since they are in it like 10 seconds tops. My frogs have always seemed pretty healthy despite my imperfect methods. I do use a quality media for the flies and also feed springs and isopods and pinhead crickets at times.

How often do people have problems from lack of dusting, using only one dust, not dusting every feeding? Is this maybe better as a new post?

Lunch over have to run!


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Brian, 
With me still being new and curious, what is the ground cinnamon in the picture for? A trick to the trade that I haven't learned yet? Or just prepared to feed yourself some toast while feeding them?
-Chris


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Once again, I'm still new and learning some of the tricks too. Thankfully, the guys at Josh's explained things to me pretty well at FrogDay. Haven't had too much problem with escapees, but I do still always seem to have a little excess supplement when dusting. I just use a tiny pinch, very tiny, and put it into the container, then add flies and swirl. When I dump the flies into the viv, there is always just a tiny bit of excess powder that comes with the flies. With humidity and misting, it seems that little bit of powder turns into unattractive paste that I need to clean up later. So, question is, what is the best way to separate the dusted flies from the extra dust?


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

When I was getting accustomed to feeding, I used a mesh frying pan cover to sift the flies from supplement. You definitely have to throw them in the freezer for a min first to keep them from escaping off the mesh, but eliminated every bit of excess. Just poured them onto the mesh, gave a couple shakes, then poured them into the 14"x14" tupperware (only because it was hard to hit the cup), then into the cup. I'm sure you could rig something up with window screen even.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

kitcolebay said:


> Brian,
> With me still being new and curious, what is the ground cinnamon in the picture for? A trick to the trade that I haven't learned yet? Or just prepared to feed yourself some toast while feeding them?
> -Chris


I like to munch a few flies while I'm feeding and the cinnamon masks the taste LOL
I put it in the media to help with mold.

Brian


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

ShelbyFFS said:


> How do you keep from pouring excess powder into the viv? That is what I had issue with. The tea bottle helps, but isn't perfect.
> 
> I don't always dust my flies, never dust the mels because they are too hard to separate from the excess powder. I do also keep the excess powder in the jar. I don't worry about fly breath contaminating it since they are in it like 10 seconds tops. My frogs have always seemed pretty healthy despite my imperfect methods. I do use a quality media for the flies and also feed springs and isopods and pinhead crickets at times.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you may be using too much supplement powder. I try not to pour the remaining powder out but if some powder goes in I don't worry about it, try not to dump it on your frogs though. As for using supplement on every feeding I feed every other day and do rotate between four different supplements.

Brian


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

BR5 said:


> . Note: you can only leave them in a closed test tube for 5 minutes before they start dying.
> Brian


If you look at the flies carefully what you may see is that the supplement has turned to a paste on the flies from the moisture from thier respiration (and the culture). This can immobilize the flies (not dead yet, but soon), leading to a lack of feeding due to a lack of movement. I've seen this happen even with larger feeders (like ten day old crickets). 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I don't have to worry about dumping stuff on my frogs. Not because I am careful rather because they are smart. Whenever I mist they come over and wait off to the side of where I dump the flies. Once I do they come over and eat.

I do wonder if anyone has had issues with supplementing only twice a week or so only. I have not and I don't rotate, I use Repashy Tree Frog.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I don't always dust my flies, never dust the mels because they are too hard to separate from the excess powder. I do also keep the excess powder in the jar. I don't worry about fly breath contaminating it since they are in it like 10 seconds tops.


Keeping it in a jar does not mean that it isn't decomposing. Warmth (like that found in a frog room), humidity (room and result from the breathing), and the mixture of vitamins and minerals adds up to increase the catalyzed oxidation of some of the fat soluble vitamins (which throws calcium metabolism ("MBD" (which is really multiple issues under one name) off as well as contributing to short tongue syndrome and other issues) and degredation of the B vitamins. Due to the different sizes of the particles used to make the supplement, the ratio of the vitamins and minerals changes after the first dusting which can result in the above issues as well as increased risk of developmental issues in the tadpoles and several other potential issues. See for example this reference http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...regular-treatment-parasites-7.html#post300129 (Kevin is one of the author/editors of the definitive book on amphibian medicine (Amphibian Medicine and Husbandry, Krieger Press, 2001). 




ShelbyFFS said:


> My frogs have always seemed pretty healthy despite my imperfect methods. I do use a quality media for the flies and also feed springs and isopods and pinhead crickets at times.


If you had any issues necropsied and checked, I'm willing to bet that vitamin A deficiency would show up in the workup since that is a very common health issue when dusting with a supplement isn't done properly, consistently or uses an insufficient source of vitamin A. 



ShelbyFFS said:


> How often do people have problems from lack of dusting, using only one dust, not dusting every feeding? Is this maybe better as a new post?


Typically when you don't dust the frogs aren't getting the proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus (another cause of potential "MBD"), vitamin A (since cultured insects are typically very poor sources of vitamin A (and the majority of gut loading diets emphasize beta carotene which is at best poorly converted to vitamin A by the frogs), and vitamin D3 (unless you are using UVB lighting with a special optical glass or solacryl..). The vast majority of substrates used in enclosure are deficient in calcium which means that springtails and other feeders are going to be lacking the appropriate calcium to phosphorus ratios. 
It is most apparent in froglets particularly those that are small enough to prefer to feed on things that aren't typically dusted like pumilio..but it should be noted that deficiencies of vitamin A are documented to be wide spread and common in frogs that were consistently supplemented so a habit of not dusting when it is inconvient (like the melanogaster). 

An easy way to seperate the melanogaster from the supplement is to use a narrower collection container (one of the reasons I use a culture tube), the excess dust settles to the bottom (and reduces mites) and the melanogaster rise above it allowing for easy pouring into the tank. If you feed two or more different sized feeders at the same time, you will see the larger feeder primarily to be on top, then a mixture, then the smaller and then the dust. 

Ed


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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

moral of the story: listen to Ed.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

goof901 said:


> moral of the story: listen to Ed.


Skepticism is healthy, I've been wrong before and I expect to be wrong again..... 

Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I wouldn't say I am skeptical. I supplement my frogs and turtles just not all the time. I haven't experienced an issue. I wonder if others that have would talk about it.

I do also believe the varied diet helps. I also believe using quality insect feed (you are what you eat idea) helps. I know here that is generally not believed but I think that is a mistake. Being around farms i know quality feed produces quality animals. Quality soil produces quality plants. I would find it hard to believe quality media doesn't produce quality fruit flies that in turn produce healthier frogs. I buy supplemented media.

Is anyone out here willing to admit they may not be supplementing all the time? What were the results? I'm not really arguing the point rather am looking for experiences from different individuals.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I wouldn't say I am skeptical. I supplement my frogs and turtles just not all the time. I haven't experienced an issue. I wonder if others that have would talk about it.


And how often have you checked for a problem? 
What methods of evaluation were used to make that determination? 



ShelbyFFS said:


> I do also believe the varied diet helps.


Based on what evidence? That claim is not supported by the analysis of feeders.... Please supply a reference to support that claim. 



ShelbyFFS said:


> I also believe using quality insect feed (you are what you eat idea) helps. I know here that is generally not believed but I think that is a mistake. Being around farms i know quality feed produces quality animals. Quality soil produces quality plants. I would find it hard to believe quality media doesn't produce quality fruit flies that in turn produce healthier frogs. I buy supplemented media.


In this case you are making an generalized inference that is clearly not supported on analysis. For example, if you are using a media that contains vitamin E as well as other fat soluble vitamins, the flies will uptake and store vitamin E to levels of hundreds of time the levels found in the media (sufficient to disrupt vitamin A and D3 uptake by the frogs)... they utilize vitamin D3 as a precursor to cholesterol and vitamin A other than what is needed to form the retinyl in the eyes is also not stored (which is why melanogaster on analysis for vitamin A are reported as none detected.... 
With respect to calcium, it has also been shown on analysis that fruit flies are able to excrete calcium at a rate that prevents being able to adjust thier calcium to phosphorus ratio via diet. 
You may want to review 
Cooke, J.; Sang, J.H.; 1970; Utilization of sterols by by larvae of Drosophila melanogaster; J. Insect Physiol. 16: 801-812
Draper, Harold H.; Philbrick, Diana P.; Agarwal, Sanjiv; Meidiger, Roy; Phillips, John P.; 2000; Avid uptake of lineolic acid and vitamin E by Drosophila melanogaster; Nutrition Research 20(1):113-120 since they don't support your statement.. 



ShelbyFFS said:


> Is anyone out here willing to admit they may not be supplementing all the time? What were the results? I'm not really arguing the point rather am looking for experiences from different individuals.


If your not arguing it, you have an odd way of phrasing that really gives a different impression. It also looks like you are fishing for people to agree with you as a method of justifying not following best practices. I have to say that for a person advertising feeders for sale, you are not inspiring me to a lot of confidence... What "supplemented" media are you purchasing? 


Ed


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I will say this again as nice as possible.

You seem to have a need to be always right and always argue. I won't elaborate further on that shortcoming.

I dont need studies. There are plenty of bad studies out there that contradict each other. Pseudscience is a huge issue. A study from 1970 isn't what I'd call state of the art. Instead I will use common sense. My animals aren't sick or dying. They are thriving.

Animals need good nutrition. If they didnt we could feed them straight sugar and they'd live well. People wouldnt by premium dog food theyd all buy Old Roy. No one would care about mineral depletion of soil as the lack of them in the resulting vegetables would be meaningless. Eating McDonalds would be awesome and salads would disappear. No more broccolli.

I use Repashy. I have read a lot from Allen Repashy (an expert on nutrition for animals and plants). He is unmistakeably more of an expert than you on nutrition and is doing current studies not being regurgitated from 1970. For instance you talk about degredation:



> There is a statement that many people tend to take for granted about mixing vitamins and minerals together, and this statement needs to be addressed. "Calcium degrades minerals, and they should not be mixed together" This has been accepted as common knowledge, but today, it is not necessarily the truth. Minerals CAN contribute to the degradation of vitamins, but the concerns many have about this issue have been dealt with by much advancement in the stability of vitamins that have been engineered to be much more stable than in the past.
> 
> Today, vitamins can be coated or encapsulated into tiny beadlets that are quite stable and resistant to oxidation. In the last ten years, the advertised stability of many stabilized vitamin forms has increased to the point that it is equal to the shelf life of most supplements even if it is in a high calcium mixture. In fact, when a vitamin manufacturer sells a premix ( concentrated vitamin formula designed to be mixed into a feed) today, it always has some kind of a carrier that is mixed with it to create a certain feed ratio and flow characteristics, depending on the application. It is the common practice of the manufacturer I deal with (one of the best in the business) to use cellulose and Calcium Carbonate in the premix. My premixes use nearly 50% Calcium Carbonate as a carrier. I inquired about this degrading the vitamins, and was told that with today's vitamins, that there is absolutely no problem in this regard.


Reading his artcles he has gone through alot to make near perfect dusts. Why would I need to rotate? I trust his products. If he says his supplemented fly media is better I believe him. He has done the studies and frankly you are quoting ones from 1970. Then there is good old common sense again. No one dusts wild insects so the nutrition comes from elsewhere. I can see it being from a better diet.

So you can find it suspect that I believe in Repashy over you if you want to.

I suspect part of the problem is you dont get people. I am simply asking for real life experiences. I could never control whether people agree or disagree. I want to know if someone supplemented less than 100% of the time and if they have problems or not. I want to learn more. You want to be correct. That is the difference.

Yes I sell feeders. I feed them premium media. If someone thinks premium media is inferior to potato flakes and sugar then they should raise their own on that. I dont insist that people agree with me. That is what you do.

I suggest if you want to be the expert in nutrition that you repeat the studied Repashy is doing and prove him wrong. Until then I will rely on his products. I am sorry this offends you.


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I hope not relying on Ed as the only expert isn't against the TOS. I like Chuck Powell too.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

ShelbyFFS said:


> Is anyone out here willing to admit they may not be supplementing all the time? What were the results? I'm not really arguing the point rather am looking for experiences from different individuals.


When I first got into the hobby (and had only one pair of PDFs) I think I was only supplementing twice a week. Things went well for a while. They didn't appear any different, but I noticed that after a certain point, after a few clutches, all of their tadpoles developed SLS. I began supplementing daily after that and the issue went away.

A few years later, I noticed more SLS. I checked the label on my supplements and saw that they were out of date. I replaced them and again the issue resolved itself.

Because of my experience I now supplement daily. I dust with new powder every time and keep the bulk of what I'm not using in the freezer. I can't think of a compelling reason not to.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I feed 3 times a week.

1st Feeding: Repashy Calcium Plus and Superpig

2nd Feeding: Just flies, no supplementation

3rd Feeding: Repashy Supervit

If/when I pick up MinerAll again - I'll add it to the rotation. But I feed 3 times a week - and I always feed plain fruit flies once a week.

And I get plenty of breeding and no SLS (knock on wood).

s


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Don't you love it when people come on here for advice then deny it when it is given. Ed does have his -isms, but he was attempting to help by sharing his knowledge. Is that NOT why you are here?


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

Yes I come to learn. I am not interested in being insulted because I dont agree lockstep with someone. A couple people responded to the question. One who had issues one that didn't. Neither of them felt the need to make an unneeded assumption of my motives something the other person seems to do in every topic. It is creepy.

Reread his last post. Is it necessary to bash me and attack my feeder sales because I believe in the Repashy media that contains supplements? Can I not choose who I believe without back door attempts to call me stupid? Worst case would Repashy superfly medium hurt? NO!

I stand up to bullies.


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

Scott what media do you feed the flies?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

This is for the OP. You do not need much power to dust your flies. Just get a tiny bit. I always have a little bit left over and just dump it into the substrate. Now, when I say a little bit, I mean a little bit. After my next misting it is gone. I hope you are getting the hang of it. Once you get your method down, it is easy as pie.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I dont need studies. There are plenty of bad studies out there that contradict each other. Pseudscience is a huge issue. A study from 1970 isn't what I'd call state of the art. Instead I will use common sense. My animals aren't sick or dying. They are thriving.


Oddly enough what you are engaging in is actually pseudoscience. All because a study is from 1970 doesn't mean that the data is invalid or isn't state of the art. If you ignore the studies then you aren't going to be able to gain an understanding of the animals or their feeders. 



ShelbyFFS said:


> use Repashy. I have read a lot from Allen Repashy (an expert on nutrition for animals and plants). He is unmistakeably more of an expert than you on nutrition and is doing current studies not being regurgitated from 1970. For instance you talk about degredation:


I actually find this amusing...particularly since I had a little bit of a hand in how the final formulation ended up.. and even more oddly that information you are attempting to dismiss since it was published in 1970 was instrumental in the final formulation... 

You also may want to look at http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/44182-repashy-supplements-9.html#post423904 .... 



ShelbyFFS said:


> Then there is good old common sense again. No one dusts wild insects so the nutrition comes from elsewhere. I can see it being from a better diet.


This is why you need to look at the literature.. there are some significant differences between the analysis of what is in the feeders and what is available to the animals from wild invertebrates.... And yes there are studies on them... I suggest reviewing the Nutrition Chapter in Reptile Medicine and Surgery, by Dr. Susan Donoghue (a vet and exotic animal nutritionist)..... 
What is supplied by the dusting makes up for the lack of various sources including a lack of exposure to UVB light (for vitamin D3) in many captive animals... 



ShelbyFFS said:


> So you can find it suspect that I believe in Repashy over you if you want to.


You didn't specify the media you were using so I asked.. And what I find suspect is your refusal to look at the science behind the nutrition and the blind reliance on belief... 



ShelbyFFS said:


> Yes I sell feeders. I feed them premium media. If someone thinks premium media is inferior to potato flakes and sugar then they should raise their own on that. I dont insist that people agree with me. That is what you do.


If you are going to be vending feeders then you should take it upon yourself to learn about optimizing the nutrition of the animals your taking care of since people are going to ask questions. I can cite the earlier post where 
1) you stated you didn't dust melanogaster because you had a hard time seperating the dust from the flies
2) you felt that a varied diet met the needs of the animals. 

Those two statements are problematic on several levels since 
1) you are making a statement that convience is more important than making sure to meet the nutritonal needs of the frogs. This is even more important when you realize that melanogaster are a staple food item and you are saying it is okay to not dust them if you are feeding other invertbrates. 
2) a varied diet of cultures invertebrates doesn't mean that you are supplying a good nutritional basis for the frogs that makes up for the lack of dusting. It has been established in multiple studies that this is not the case.... 



ShelbyFFS said:


> I suggest if you want to be the expert in nutrition that you repeat the studied Repashy is doing and prove him wrong. Until then I will rely on his products. I am sorry this offends you.


See my above comments on Allen's products.... and the link I provided.. 

Ed


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I dont need studies. [snip] Instead I will use common sense.


The problem is, that common sense is often wrong. There are too many examples of that: Counterintuitive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But more specifically with regards to frogs, common sense might tell you many things, like (examples from my own thinking) "It's got to be fine to mix supplements because they are each fine by themselves so what would be the difference if I gave them to the frog together?" which I learned was not right. "What difference would it make if the supplements are left in the cup until the next feeding?" Again, wrong. "Why should I bother tearing down an old tank to put these new frogs in it? The frogs that were in here were doing "fine" and looked "healthy". I was wrong again. I could think of a ton more, but the point is, just because something makes sense to you, doesn't make them correct or the best practice. And the best practice, even if it was from 1970 is probably going to be better than guessing and using common sense.

Ed frequently posts things like this:

"In this case you are making an generalized inference that is clearly not supported on analysis. For example, if you are using a media that contains vitamin E as well as other fat soluble vitamins, the flies will uptake and store vitamin E to levels of hundreds of time the levels found in the media (sufficient to disrupt vitamin A and D3 uptake by the frogs)... they utilize vitamin D3 as a precursor to cholesterol and vitamin A other than what is needed to form the retinyl in the eyes is also not stored (which is why melanogaster on analysis for vitamin A are reported as none detected.... 
With respect to calcium, it has also been shown on analysis that fruit flies are able to excrete calcium at a rate that prevents being able to adjust thier calcium to phosphorus ratio via diet. 
You may want to review 
Cooke, J.; Sang, J.H.; 1970; Utilization of sterols by by larvae of Drosophila melanogaster; J. Insect Physiol. 16: 801-812
Draper, Harold H.; Philbrick, Diana P.; Agarwal, Sanjiv; Meidiger, Roy; Phillips, John P.; 2000; Avid uptake of lineolic acid and vitamin E by Drosophila melanogaster; Nutrition Research 20(1):113-120 since they don't support your statement.. " 

whenever people make generalized blanket statements. But I would be willing to bet that basically ZERO people actually do go read them. Normal people don't want to put in the time/effort/money to really learn. There are very few people who actually STUDY all aspects of this hobby. Most people come on here and read a few threads, keep their frogs alive for a year or two, and assume they must be doing it "right".

I also feel that people who are "science-minded" are hard-wired to notice things that most people do not notice. Like when someone comes on here and posts something like, "Hey everyone! I figured out something. I made up two cultures a week ago, one with excelsior and one that I put 3 empty toilet paper rolls in for surface area, and the one with the paper rolls is booming! You should all try it!" It screams to the "science-minded" people, "how many of each fly did they put in, what temperature was each culture at, etc." So when someone makes a statement that they present as a fact, some people expect it to be backed up by something, especially because other people reading it will take it as a fact if there's no alternative offered.

Some comments,  (if you don't get that, you probably haven't done enough reading on this forum)

Brian


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## ShelbyFFS (Apr 30, 2012)

I have been given advice by several people here to just dont engage with Ed as he always has this problem. I think I will follow that advice.

Just read his last post again. All his logic is gone because he assumed too much misstated too much misquoted too much and got lost in his own ego. He tries to twist what you said to meet his own argument even though it isnt even close to what was actually said. I have followed a few of his past topics. It seems he attacks many people and ruins his own logic in most of them.

I can simply state one true fact: Repashy makes a supplemented media because his studies show it is better for the animals. I believe in that.

Scott the mod here dusts twice a week like I do also with Repashy products per his post. Maybe Ed should insult him (actually by extension he already did) and say he is lazy too because dusting is inconvenient like he did me.

Think about it. I dust Hydei Monday and Friday for feedings. Undusted Mels on Wednesday. I like to keep springtails and isopods in there as well for variety. Occasional crickets round off the menu (dusted). Yet Ed wants to insult me and imply I am neglectful? I hope the moderators take note of these personal attacks and take action. Because one of them feeds in a very similar manner to myself so did I deserve it? I dont think this kind of bullying should be allowed without suspension.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I have been given advice by several people here to just dont engage with Ed as he always has this problem. I think I will follow that advice.
> 
> Just read his last post again. All his logic is gone because he assumed too much misstated too much misquoted too much and got lost in his own ego. He tries to twist what you said to meet his own argument even though it isnt even close to what was actually said. I have followed a few of his past topics. It seems he attacks many people and ruins his own logic in most of them.
> 
> ...


Wow, talk about always wanting to be right...

You stated, "I believe a varied diet helps", and he says, "here are multiple sources that say you're wrong" and you stick your fingers in your ears and don't listen and call him a bully. If you said "I think the moon is made of green cheese" and someone said "Here's some books that tell you what it's really made of" would you still reply, "I don't need studies, I'll use my common sense."?

And I'd be willing to bet that if anyone, including mods, asked if dusting twice a week was the "best way" he would tell them what the scientists that have studied this have concluded by citing references.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

theres always one problematic poster here isnt there?

one: separating melanogaster from supplement is difficult? i have to agree with Ed here, if this seems like an unsolvable riddle, its suspect that you sell feeders with any sort of quality. this is really the most simple part of the feeding regimen. flies and supplement are in a cup... you tap the cup, and the larger flies rise to the surface, away from the fine supplement, and can be poured off with virtually no supplement being poured in the enclosure.

two: as Ed said in a previous post, he and Allen worked closely in the creation of the Calcium plus product. your comments,


> He is unmistakeably more of an expert than you on nutrition


 are making it clear that your simply talking out your ass.

three: admit that your methods may not be right, no one is infallible. healthy discussion is important, however defending an incorrect position in the face of hard evidence is foolish and shows a serious lack of character and responsibility for one's actions.

four: potato flake based media has been, and continues to be, a tried and true method of fly culture, and is used by everyone from hobbyist, to scientist. is Allen's "Super Fly" a good product? sure, is it the only way to provide healthy feeders? NO! I've been using homemade media for over a decade and it works fine, others here have used homemade medias for 20+ years. 

to conclude, your new here so a certain amount of resistance/defiance to factual information (with a firm grounding in science) is accepted, but i warn you, others in the past have trod down this path and made fools of themselves. this is a close knit community, and members are more like friends and family than faceless screen names. word travels fast and reputations are hard to shake.

james


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Dust your big funnel


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ShelbyFFS said:


> Just read his last post again. All his logic is gone because he assumed too much misstated too much misquoted too much and got lost in his own ego. He tries to twist what you said to meet his own argument even though it isnt even close to what was actually said. I have followed a few of his past topics. It seems he attacks many people and ruins his own logic in most of them.


Actually I didn't twist anything nor did I misquote you since I can quote you directly (and oddly enough my logic is intact). Are you now attempting to deny that you said that dusting melanogaster was "inconvient" since you couldn't get them seperated from the dusting supplement? 
You engaged in making generalized statements that are unsupported by the various studies and I pointed that out and you in response engaged in denying the evidence, attempting to down play the evidence and invoking other authorities as a method to attempt to discredit me. No where have you supplied any evidence to support your vague claims... 



ShelbyFFS said:


> I can simply state one true fact: Repashy makes a supplemented media because his studies show it is better for the animals. I believe in that.


No one here is denying that Allen makes a good product but this is not the argument nor the discussion.. You stated the exact following quote 


> I buy supplemented media.


Which is very different than anyone saying there is something wrong with Allen's product.... so you can stop attempting to divert the attention off of yourself by trying to make like people were attacking Allen's product instead of your vague statements....



ShelbyFFS said:


> Scott the mod here dusts twice a week like I do also with Repashy products per his post. Maybe Ed should insult him (actually by extension he already did) and say he is lazy too because dusting is inconvenient like he did me.


Actually what Scott said is very different than what you have presented in the argument to date. In addition, he wasn't the one claiming that it was too inconvient to dust melanogaster. You are again attempting to start arguments between other parties by making the unsupported claim that I insulted Scott as an attempt to start a diversion. 
And thank you for confirming my point that you were fishing for people to justify what you were attempting to claim (which is in and of itself pseudoscience....(and this isn't an insult to Scott either....). 




ShelbyFFS said:


> Think about it. I dust Hydei Monday and Friday for feedings. Undusted Mels on Wednesday. I like to keep springtails and isopods in there as well for variety. Occasional crickets round off the menu (dusted). Yet Ed wants to insult me and imply I am neglectful? I hope the moderators take note of these personal attacks and take action. Because one of them feeds in a very similar manner to myself so did I deserve it? I dont think this kind of bullying should be allowed without suspension.


1) no where in the thread prior to this have you indicated a feeding schedule. Instead we have you stating that dusting melanogaster is inconvient, that you don't dust regularly and that your evaluation is that your frogs appear healthy without using any accepted methods to actually determine if they are indeed healthy (just nebulous claims about how they must automatically be healthy). So I am still waiting for evidence that varying feeders automatically supplies the needed nutrition (which is a claim you made)

2) You are claiming that you are being bullied and are the victim, yet you are the one who has thrown the unsupported insults out at me in addition to attempting to start arguments with other people as a diversion... I have simply pointed out where your statements are not in line with best practices and where I saw them as questionable.... 

3) You started with infered insults very early in posting on this forum... yet have issues when you get caught by your own statements... remember the insults about what I should do if I wanted to be an "expert" on nutrition? It is funny that you are trying to play the victim when it is your own words that you can't defend. 

4) It is also very unusual for a person who is a vendor to not want customers to know who they are and where they are located.... not a great way to help generate crediability..... 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pl259 said:


> Dust your big funnel


 
And I totally missed this step. I second this as an important step to help contain the flies. 

Ed


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I have been given advice by several people here to just dont engage with Ed as he always has this problem. I think I will follow that advice.
> 
> ...


I find this particularly baffling. IMO, Ed is utterly charming. Make an effort to get to know him and I think you'll agree. 

edit: LMAO now I have to change my signature. Combined with my post, and his signature above, it looks like I'm stalking Ed


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## Shinosuke (Aug 10, 2011)

Shelby,

I think some people misinterpret Ed's posts as "bullying" or attacking but I reallllly doubt that's how he intends them. Being a fellow geek I see most of his posts as sharing information without worrying about whether he's going to hurt someone's feelings or not. And really, that's a boon for those who can handle / understand it.

Please take a step back, breathe for a second, and then re-read Ed's posts. Keep in mind that it's NOT about who's right or wrong. No one cares if you come to this board knowing all the right answers or not. Heck, go read some of my posts. You'll see how little I know / how often I'm wrong and how much people still help me around here. 

What it IS about is sharing info so we can all be more successful in the hobby and have healthier animals. If you look at these conversations as logically trying to improve the hobby and stop worrying about whether you're personally right or wrong you'll probably come to appreciate Ed's posts as I have. He evidently has the time and inclination to do the hardcore sciencey stuff AND share the results with us. 

On the other hand, if you're just feeling touchy and want to argue about something you should come on down and join us in the thunderdome section.

Some opinions,

Adam


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Ed said:


> And I totally missed this step. I second this as an important step to help contain the flies.
> 
> Ed


After my brief read and filtering of this thread, it looked like everyone missed that step.

Dust funnels, feeding cups, and whatever else FFs will be moved around in. They can't climb smooth walled, dusted things.


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

ShelbyFFS said:


> I don't always dust my flies,


but when I do I drink Dosequis


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## XxExoticPsychExX (Mar 12, 2012)

^^^^


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I should keep popcorn stocked for threads like these...


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## Froggywv (Aug 9, 2010)

I'm just gonna skip through the rest of it... Here's what I do, I put my supplements in the feeding cup before the flies, swirl it around, making sure to get some on the sides. The flies can't climb up the sides when the sides are covered in dust. Then, give the culture a couple of hard taps, open and tap flies into the feeding container. Once I have enough, I tip the culture back up and tap hard to put the flies back on the bottom, then snap the lid back on. Before I started doing this method I would have flies everywhere and was constantly having to go after them. Now, I rarely ever loose one. If I do have a BIG blooming culture with a massive amount of flies I will transfer them over the sink just in case I do loose some. By the time they are in the cup and the culture closed, you can catch the escapees with a squirt of water from the sprayer on the sink. 

Also, when your feeding them out and they are covered in supplements, don't just dump them in the tank, supplements and all. Tip and tap. Supplements will stay (for the most part) in the bottom and flies will come out.


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## yumyow (Apr 28, 2012)

This has been a very informative thread for a newbie like myself. How long should I start culturing FF's before i get frogs?


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