# how do you get those European looking tanks?



## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

does anybody know how one gets tanks so lushly planted without roasting the frogs? From experience, too much light causes the greenhouse effect even if you use fans. From seeing somebody's dutch tank with all that lush ground cover makes me wonder. Also, many orchids do not like stagnant conditions our darts like as far as air flow, but I see them quuite a bit in euro tanks.

any ideas?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

check out this website: http://www.vivaria.nl (i think)

They custom make vivariums in the Neatherlands. I think the key is air movement, but at the same time, keeping the humidity up through water features, fogging, and misting. Some day, I'll have the time and money to play around with it.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I think you hit the nail on the head.. air flow...


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

Most of those tanks are custom builds or built by the owner.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Rain_Frog said:


> does anybody know how one gets tanks so lushly planted without roasting the frogs? From experience, too much light causes the greenhouse effect even if you use fans. From seeing somebody's dutch tank with all that lush ground cover makes me wonder. *Also, many orchids do not like stagnant conditions our darts like as far as air flow*, but I see them quuite a bit in euro tanks.
> 
> any ideas?


The rainforest I visited didn't have stagnant air. I think the frogs just put up with it. I get amazed b/c a lot of people think their vivs need to be sealed tight with a billion percent humidity to get their frogs to breed. My vivs have medium air flow, enough to dry the front and the plants in front every day and my male frogs call like there is no tomorrow.

Ventilation isn't goint to hurt anything. I think thats something we on this side of the pond need to learn to get used to.


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

There's a few viv builders here in the UK and Europe and some people make thier own.

as said many times ti key is ventalation.. the Euro viv's have front vents under the doors and a vent strip maybe 3/4 of the way back this creates air flow and the frogs do fine.

also here we dont have forced air heat nor do we have AC so the houses dont dry out as much in the summer or winter sooo that being said the tanks dont get as hot nor as dry as they would in the states with all that ventalation.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Some people here have Euro looking tanks. Once again, it seems to be those who are fortunate enough to have a misting system and a good ventilation system. It's not economical right now for me to purchase a misting system, as my tanks are somewhat spread out in different rooms.


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Frogtofall said:


> people think their vivs need to be sealed tight with a billion percent humidity


I couldn't agree more Antone!

I see so many folks pushing their humidity to 90%-100%. I keep my viv around 75% (-/+ 5%) and I've not had any problems with my frogs or plants.

Does anyone else out there keep their humidity down around here?


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## PoohMac (Aug 22, 2006)

DartMan said:


> Frogtofall said:
> 
> 
> > people think their vivs need to be sealed tight with a billion percent humidity
> ...


Yes I been discussing this issue with Steve from Repti-Racks, we both agree that some people think they need to have high humidity(100%) and its a good think to see moister on the walls of the enclosure. No, you do not need 100% humidity (my opinion). I keep mine around 80% to 90%. Like MJ said it’s about Ventilation. I've been working on some idea for better venting on acrylic caging to help promote clear viewing of the frog, keeping the temp at a responsible level and to keep the front door from any type of warping(warping has to do with the temp of the room vs. the temp in the tank). This weekend Steve as invited me over to show him some of my ideas and cross ref. with his ideas. We are going to make about 4 acrylic cages with different types of venting, using a thicker acrylic for the front panel and door, using glass for door only. We are going to mix all of the above and see how they hold up to temps in the house/temp in the enclosure and what humidity it will hold with misting once a day to using a misting system. As for fans, I recommended a fan no bigger then 2" inches any tanks from 14”-30” because I tried a 2” and 3/8” fan and it works to good causing the tank to dry up and loss to much moister. All tanks will be setup 1st with no fans to see do with no moving current of air, then a fan will be added at the end to see what humidity it holds at.

This is a brief summery of what is planned for this weekend. I will be take pics of everything and post them soon.


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## Repti-racks (Oct 2, 2006)

*air flow*



zBrinks said:


> check out this website: http://www.vivaria.nl (i think)
> 
> They custom make vivariums in the Neatherlands. I think the key is air movement, but at the same time, keeping the humidity up through water features, fogging, and misting. Some day, I'll have the time and money to play around with it.


I agree with that airflow is the key some think moisture on the sides of the vivariums is high humidity and seal off every air gap with glass to keep humidity levels up. Ive been doing Arboreal gtps and etb's for some time now and the require the same humidity levels as darts do. My units have a good amount of air flow and humidity is still high with daily misting by hand or with an misting system. Given you have an substrate that absorbs moister it will release it into the cage or vivarium. dart frog set ups with hydro pellets,soil mixture and mosses. will release moisture into the air keeping humidity levels up high, even with a few vents used for air flow. Placing an heat pad under the vivarium will also raise temps up along with humidity with heat raising it will bring mositure up with it into the air. Were currently working on some new venting ideas with our vivariums having more air movment without fans being used. Were also tring some other ideas as to using different materials for an vivarium such as PVC and glass *Check back with us for this new Design Vivarium Concept will post new pictures on our web site as well.*


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> Ventilation isn't goint to hurt anything. I think thats something we on this side of the pond need to learn to get used to.


Easily said for someone in Florida. Come to Montana where a humid day is 30% and see how much you want to open your tanks ;-)

But there is a difference between ventilation and circulation. You can get good air movement and considerable cooling effect by just circulating air in the vivarium without a lot of exchange of air with the outside.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

_Easily said for someone in Florida. Come to Montana where a humid day is 30% and see how much you want to open your tanks ;-) 

But there is a difference between ventilation and circulation. You can get good air movement and considerable cooling effect by just circulating air in the vivarium without a lot of exchange of air with the outside_

That is true, except the fact that many of our DIY fans probably wouldn't be safe to be exposed to that much moisture.

I'd really like to see how long these orchids I see in tanks last because orchids actually do need their roots dried off quickly or that causes them to rot.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Rain_Frog said:


> That is true, except the fact that many of our DIY fans probably wouldn't be safe to be exposed to that much moisture.


I've been running circulating fans in vivs for years and haven't seen any problems with longevity. I buy my fans cheap at electronics goldmine but always make sure I'm getting roller bearing fans. I've got one little $2 fan that has been humming away in the bottom of a wet viv for about 7 years now. I want to try some of the Silenx fans that are reported to be the quietest on the market. A bit more expensive than what I've been using but I hate fan noise.



> I'd really like to see how long these orchids I see in tanks last because orchids actually do need their roots dried off quickly or that causes them to rot.


It varies but without air movement it is fair to say that more die than survive.


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## jejton (Sep 3, 2006)

Do the fans require any diy wiring or they simply ' plug and play ' ?


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## PoohMac (Aug 22, 2006)

jejton said:


> Do the fans require any diy wiring or they simply ' plug and play ' ?



DIY wiring...red and black and you just use a transformer that matches the Ma. You can get these at radio shack or any electronic store should have them. Repti-racks sells them with transformer.


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

I've recently seen some fans come out that are wired and ready to go for our hobby. I've seen them at Black Jungle for sale for those who wish not to DIY: http://www.blackjungle.com/Merchant2/me ... _Code=BJTS


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

That kit will still require some DIY to use for circulation because you need to screen them off to prevent the fans from becoming a RONCO Frog-O-Matic. Forget Radio Shack unless you are having a hard time spending all of your money. Check out Electronic Goldmine: http://www.goldmine-elec.com/

Basic wiring is simple. As was already said, you just need to choose a transformer rated for at least as many amps (usually milliamps - mA) as the sum total of all the fans you will run off of it. If you get an adjustable voltage transformer, you can adjust the volage for a crude speed control. If you want to get fancy, you can try this: http://www.bbrock.frognet.org/vivarium_cooling.htm

Maybe some day I'll get around to posting pictures of my large viv with ducted air circulation.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> Do the fans require any diy wiring or they simply ' plug and play ' ?


They are not plug and play. You have to know a little about electrical things to hook them up. Some fans are DC, some are AC. Most PC fans are DC and can use a wall transformer that produces the correct DC voltage. Not all wall transformers output DC. Some output AC. DC wall transformers have a rated DC output voltage and current. Some are regulated, some are not. 
Best to start with the label on the fan and get a transformer that matches. If you use a transformer with a higher output voltage then labeled on the fan it will turn faster and likely break at some point depending how much higher the voltage is. Use a lower voltage transformer and the fan will turn slower or not at all. The transformer should have at least the same, and preferably higher current rating(ma). 
Now for the rub. Some wall transformers are regulated, some are not. A regulated DC transformer is one that maintains the same output voltage up to it's rated load current. These are the ones you want. Unregulated wall transformers only produce their rated voltage at their rated current. Draw less current and the voltage will be higher. Draw more current then rated and the voltage will be less.

Post what your thinking of getting and many of us can help tell you if it will work OK.

EricG.NH


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Ok, I'm a bit confused... which type of Euro tank are we talking about here? The smaller tanks that we've adapted the styles to for our rack systems, or the huge rain forest taking up one side of a room tanks? You just can't get the lushness of the big tanks in the smaller tanks.


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## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

i think he was talking about the post with the dutch tanks from a couple days ago. ones like that


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

KeroKero said:


> Ok, I'm a bit confused... which type of Euro tank are we talking about here? The smaller tanks that we've adapted the styles to for our rack systems, or the huge rain forest taking up one side of a room tanks? *You just can't get the lushness of the big tanks in the smaller tanks.*


I wholeheartedly disagree. :wink: 

bbrock, I spent 20yrs of my life in the Chicago area. I'm all too familiar with those dry freakin' winters. :lol: 

Florida rules though. It was 80F today. 

Circulation via fans would be the ultimate addition for your orchids but I am pretty sure that if you have decent ventilation a similar effect will take place. I forget the name of the Principle. Where's Clayton...


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I'm looking for the ultimate in fan control, a pulse width modulated controller.
Allows slower speeds without stalling.

I kind of wonder if frogs' tolerance for higher temperatures would be a little better with a little circulation vs. a sealed, stagnant tank.

In most of my newer tanks, I set them up with a permanantly attatched siphon hose made up of aquarium air hose, I was kind of wondering if the little amount of air an aquarium air pump could push through there would do much good for anything. The air would be bubbling trough any water in the bottom of the tank, and up through the substrate.
Not expecting a whole lot, but the hose is already there so what the heck, why not try it?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

jejton said:


> Do the fans require any diy wiring or they simply ' plug and play ' ?


Here's a full write up on how to wire the fans, with pictures for each step. It also details how to properly select a power supply. http://diyvivs.com/articles/how_to-fan-1.htm


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Frogtofall said:


> Florida rules though. It was 80F today.


Good god! And you aren't planning to move?



> Circulation via fans would be the ultimate addition for your orchids but I am pretty sure that if you have decent ventilation a similar effect will take place. I forget the name of the Principle. Where's Clayton...


Yes and no on the ventilation. Orchids are susceptible to what is know as the boundary layer where a layer of stagnant air sticks around the leaf due to surface tension. When this happens, O2 builds up around the leaf and prevents CO2 from entering the leaf, thus inhibiting photosynthesis and promoting fungal growth. So it is the movement of air around the plant that is important to create a little turbulence and break up the boundary layer - plus help dry the roots. That's why even in greenhouses, orchidists use fans to keep the air moving. If you passively ventilate a vivarium, then warm air will rise and cool air will take its place. How much draft this creates will depend on the placement of intake and outlet vents as well as the temperature differential. Usually this isn't enough to create the kind of movement needed to break the boundary layer.

If you go to active ventilation with a fan, then you can create the movement but if you have that dry Chicago winter air coming into the viv, you will dry it out. When I was in Kansas, I had a small computer fan hooked up to run slowly as a ventilation fan on my auratus. This vivarium was hooked up to a fogger which ran every hour during the day for 2 minutes and about 25% of the vivarium floor was water feature. But the frogs went into hiding and never came out. This went on for a month. Finally I stuck a hygrometer in the viv to monitor the humidity. What I found was the humidity would rise to 100% while the fogger was on but within 2 minutes of it shutting off, the humidity would start to fall. By 20 minutes after the fogger quit, the humidity was below 50% and continued to drop toward the ambient room humidity (about 40%) until the next fogger cycle started things over. I shut off the fan and I kid you not, within 1 hour all of the auratus were out hopping around and acting normal again.

The point being that ventilation and ambient room humidity can have profound effects on the vivarium environment. In Florida you could probably keep pdf in screen cages (in fact, I know someone who did that in HI). But in dryer areas, that sort of ventilation might be overkill.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Antone, I don't think we are going to agree on the "lushness" issue... but then again, maybe its not the best term. In the larger tanks you can often grow much different species, and some species we like to use in smaller tanks will reach their full potential only in the larger tanks (the hobby has a tendency to stuff plants that are not appropriate into the tanks with little care... much like adding fish to the pond... why is it that the frogs are the only living organisms that people put research into?). The larger tanks also can eventually develop the micro climates that you can't get in the smaller tanks... which are small enough that they are a micro climate into themselves... 

While sure, you can fill up a small tank with lots of green (or various colors with the variety of plants accessible today) a lot of the problems we often run into with the smaller tanks may be remedied by the larger size... plant wise, working with such huge tanks a few hundred gallons) is different than working with the tiny tanks that we have.


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## Ronm (Oct 1, 2006)

Hi Everyone,

First of all let me congratulate all of you with the level of discussions on your forum. I like it better then our Dutch forum.
I think that we in the Netherlands don't have any problems maintaining our RV levels. 
I don't know much about your tanks, but quite a lot of us have a false botton set up with a aquarium heater.
A small ventilation in the front and two small ventilation strips at the top. 
I have bought mine at Rana http://www.kwekerijrana.nl/IndexNE.html

Best of luck with your frogs...if you wnat to know anything...please contact me at mu mail: [email protected]

Ron


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## DartMan (Nov 29, 2005)

Ron,

Thanks for that link to Rana. I had totally forgot about that website, GREAT Photos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had another look at the photos there at Rana and one thing jumped out at me about their vivariums ........ most, if not all, of their vivs have THREE sides covered in some form of growing media. It seems here in the states we're pretty much hung up doing just doing backgrounds strictly on the "back" and leaving or sides as glass. Yes, there a few folks that have vivs around here with three sides covered, but not many. I would think with three sides covered it would:

help insluate the viv
help maintain a more even temp throughout the day/night range
help maintain humidity level better

ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

DartMan said:


> help insluate the viv
> help maintain a more even temp throughout the day/night range
> help maintain humidity level better
> 
> ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD?


provide more habitat
allow a greater diversity of plants
looks better

All of my vivs except some temp tanks have 3-sided backgrounds. The question I always ask when designing a tank is whether I will be viewing the tank by looking through the side. The answer is usually no which means it gets covered with a background.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Hey bbrock, I see your points. I will say though that here in the Summer, the room humidity is pretty low due to the A/C constantly running, so I understand your points.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

bbrock said:


> All of my vivs except some temp tanks have 3-sided backgrounds. The question I always ask when designing a tank is whether I will be viewing the tank by looking through the side. The answer is usually no which means it gets covered with a background.


That is something I think I will start doing more on my terrariums. Empty sides allows valuable light to escape. I'm looking forward to trying this.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Also, more habitat from more background includes the ever valuble mirofauna...I can always find springtails and young woodlice on the backgroud materials...


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## Ronm (Oct 1, 2006)

In my (Rana) show vivarium I not only have back cover, but also the left side. And that corner is the favourite of my amazonicus. 
I'm thinking about couvering the right side to create a new home for my 2nd pair.

Ron


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## PoohMac (Aug 22, 2006)

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22521

check it out guys; what do you think?


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

I have actually been moving away from backgrounds all together, going to hexagonal tanks laid out specifically to be viewable from all sides. With larger hexagonal tanks (my imis are in a 60 gallon) you can make stunning "dead tree" setups without dealing with all the background chemical crap.

Hexes are more expensive, but craigslist is awesome (found the 60 gallon for under 50 bucks)... plus, time and money saved on backgrounds is a really valuable thing (I think).

Clearly, more space is available for plants etc when tanks are heavily "backgrounded" so it's not like this way is any better, but I find it much easier, more visually pleasing, etc. 

I still like backgrounds for some tanks (particularly standard rectangular ones) but it is wonderful to experiment with background-free enclosures. Plus, many of the thumbs seem to love the feel of moist glass on their bellies...


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## Jussi_K (Nov 17, 2006)

*re*

Hello,

I'm an euro grower (hopefully have some day an euro viv) have made a viv only and only plants in mind. As someone said up there for orchids the keys are high ventilation, rapid dehydration and high or should I say relatively low humidity.
When you grow plants you should always look up where they grow well. For example 70% cultivated orchid species come from low highland cloud forests. Almost every cultivated species grows there well. Aerangis, bulbophyllum, cattleya, laelia, paphiopedilum and dendrobium and most others like it there. Phalaenopsis is really a lowland species, but it groes well as long as temps don't drop below 16 degrees clesius. There are few key points:

- High humidity, depending how much soil your plants have 60 (lot spaghum) - 85 (no spaghum).
- high - really high ventilation. Inside air should CIRCULATE several times in a minute. The key is to circulate not to give new air, if you give new air several times a minute you surely drop your air humidity way too low. Air humidity and circulation should be in balance. If you have lot spaghum moss you should have lower humidity though higher ventilation. In contrast to if you have no soi (like I) the humidity has to be higher and ventilation also higher. 

Orchids come from these wet cloud forests, but from the driest places there. Most of them aree epiphytes, capable to reserve water for weeks without watering (sympodial, for example dendrobium's resting period). Orchid roots are covered with fungus. If they stay long wet (more than a day) they can't get oxygen and die. In their natural habitat they grow in trees and when the rain comes the tree gets most of the water with its leaves and ground roots. Orchids get just a bit and dry rapidly. Their roots are often exposed to air and almost alway they grow in huge ventilation.

Bromeliads are little easier because they manage while they stay wet. They also manage without roots. Some Tillandsia species don't even have ones.

So the key in many good europe terrariums actually is not to grow orchids. There are really few good looking orchid vivs. Tropical ferns and broms have just better and more beatiful foliage and are much easier to grow.

If you still want to grow orchids, or if you are obsessed to them like me, the most important single factor is fast dehydration. It is possible only with mega ventilation. Soil dehydrates just as fast as low the humidity is. But orchids need the high humidity (60-85) so you have to have huge air ventilation to get them dry fast. It is also important to have just a little or no soil that roots dry fast. So be careful with soil, it really kills most plants. 
Humidity is also not same as misting. Misting is actually pretty bad for orchids. Nevertheless it humidifies it also makes root wet. And orchids don't like that too often. So in many cases ultrasonic humidifier is better.
Personally I have all three of them. Fogger, Misting system and backwall watering pump. They all moist the air. Key is to moist the air and dry the back wall. So Backwall watering is only to water plants not to humidify them. Misting system is just 3 seconds on every half an hour to maintain humidity and fogger runs 24/7. Mister is good to provide water also for air roots, but you have to be careful with it. 

Pictures and info http://web.mac.com/jussi_kaijasilta/iWe ... arium.html


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## coolhand (Dec 12, 2006)

Ok I know this is an old thread but I was wondering if anyone could tellme how they set up the fans in their tanks.. are the up high down low... on the sides in the middle .. pulling air in or pushing air out? Does anyone have any knowledge of being able to set up a tank like a paint booth is set up? something where .. the temp and the setup of the tank circulates the air without a fan? I guess if you could it would only be possible in larger tanks? any help would be appreciated... 

I have a 75 gal with one fan just dropped in it now .. no frogs yet just seeing if I can get the plants to grow and keep the humidity constant the is about a 24"x10" screen section on top but I have lights covering it so it may not be venting well the hum is around 90% all the time and I think the plants are suffering


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## fishmommy (Dec 23, 2006)

This thread ROCKS!

I recently saw something that Hans posted on his website about the airflow in one of his Vivs. It illustrated that the vents in the bottom are where the cool air comes in. Also those lower vents are positioned over a water pool, which entrains even more cool air. This air is pulled upward by fans near the top.
He has a diagram of the entire airflow - I forget right now where it is but if I can find it I will post a link (unless one of you nice folks finds it first)

I am learning so much here! thanks all!


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

fishmommy said:


> This thread ROCKS!
> 
> I recently saw something that Hans posted on his website about the airflow in one of his Vivs. It illustrated that the vents in the bottom are where the cool air comes in. Also those lower vents are positioned over a water pool, which entrains even more cool air. This air is pulled upward by fans near the top.
> He has a diagram of the entire airflow - I forget right now where it is but if I can find it I will post a link (unless one of you nice folks finds it first)
> ...


http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... entilation


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## fishmommy (Dec 23, 2006)

that's the one!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Actually, I do have a "Euro" vivarium, but it is for my firebellied toads.

My FCA cube has a 27 watt AND a 20 watt CF. The tank is roughly an 18 gallon. Water temperature barely rises two degrees, air temp about four.

The key trick, is the sump. I do have a fan blowing over the lights, but the sump drains off the heat from the pump and the light by evaporative cooling very effectively.

I do keep my bombina at a much lower humidity, about 60-80%.

However, there is no misting or fog system to get that extra lush look.


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## hans7 (Aug 11, 2006)

I’m one off the Dutch and i have no problem with RV. 
Already keeping mine tank in the same conditions and have a wonderful grow of mine plants. 
RV is constantly 85 %. 
The ventilation is running 24 H p/d 
But i have also 1000 lt of water keeping the RV up to 70 % 
I just make mine automatically rv with a censor i put the rv on 85 and the Censor keeping it on set point. 
For more technical details see the home page below. 
Regards. 
Hans


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## Ronm (Oct 1, 2006)

coolhand,

In my terri I've got two openings covered with metal netting(?) in my top glass, one over the entire length in the front an one in the back (Rana terri) I've got 4 computer vents on the front netting blowing inside and lifting the temp each day with 4/5 degrees C and taking care of the damp front window. In summer I simply flip them over to get ride of the high temp caused by the lamps.
Ron


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