# What 3 hrs of work will get you...! *New pics 2-12-07*



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

The only concern is the water level I have to keep if I want the water feature to function as the two lowest broms have their roots in water constantly if so. That a problem?

Enjoy everyone,
Chris


----------



## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

*Re: What 3 hrs of work will get you...!*



tinctoritus said:


> The only concern is the water level I have to keep if I want the water feature to function as the two *lowest broms have their roots in water constantly if so. That a problem?*
> 
> Enjoy everyone,
> Chris


Yes it is. Maybe not as bad as having the actual bottom of the brom in the water. What are you putting this viv?


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

I was thinkin imitator, vent, or lamasi. It really falls down to what is available when I get enough money to get a sm group.

The two broms are pretty much in the water. I'll prolly lower the water level and turn off the water feature. Even at that level it still cavitates air and is noisy.


----------



## RGB (Jan 15, 2006)

I like the soil-less idea, it looks really cool. How many gallons is that? It looks like the frogs won't have as much useable space with this design, so i'd be conservative on how many you put in there. I definitely like it though, good work!


----------



## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

I agree with Ron but would like to add I wouldn't keep darts in there period. Just far too much water. A nice group of Mossy frogs or Bombina would be sweet in there though.


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

They certainly wont have much if any groundspace to use. The tank is a 58 gallon. I may go with just a trio or quad of frogs. I really like imitator so I think I will go with them. 

Now do i have to worry about them drowning? :? 

C


----------



## Fishinfl321 (Aug 10, 2006)

tinctoritus said:


> They certainly wont have much if any groundspace to use. The tank is a 58 gallon. I may go with just a trio or quad of frogs. I really like imitator so I think I will go with them.
> 
> Now do i have to worry about them drowning? :?
> 
> C


Yes... it is a possibility. Like Antone said, some type of water frog would be better in there.


Troy


----------



## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

Ditto. Eventhough contrary to popular belive, PDFs are great swimmers its just that you really don't want them to be around THAT much water all the time. The constant swimming could be undue stress IMO.


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Antone, didnt even see your post there, mustve had it up as I was typing my own. 

I think Im gonna do away with the water. Mossies are nice, but I prolly would never be able to see them in this type of set up. All the water (except for a tiny amount for the riccia to grow) is comin out.

EDIT: I have a solution to the water depth. Add more gravel!


----------



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Hey tinctoritus,

That is an awesome looking viv. I'd be interested to see what type of frogs you end up with in there. At 58 gallons, that's a lot of space for a small group of frogs, espeically considering poeple will throw a trio in a 10g vert. I'd be supprised if you didn't have more availiable space in your viv than that. 

I don't know about the water. Has anyone had some imis or intermedius drown in this type of set up? I know I have a trio of imis in a much smaller tank with with about 30% water and haven't had any problems yet. 

Cool viv,

Luke


----------



## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

i actually prefer deeper water to prevent drowning, since its usually due to another frog holding them down...deeper water or a steeper inclined shore makes it harder for that to occur. 

But i see a problem if you do leave the water in....looks like there are plenty of places they could swim to to get out...but also looks like there are a ton of nooks and crannies they could swim into and become trapped in.

also be sure to subtract the water area from the total tanks space to determine your actual Frog usable tank space. I'd say the way that tank is setup you've lost atleast a quarter of your usable tank space. The structure of the "island increases its overall surface area...but the lack of a background cuts down on usable space so thats partially how i arrived at my very rough/aribtrary guess 

Ofcourse this is only if you decided to keep all the water...which sounds like you havent. Might use some drift wood and foam to seal off a corner and turn it into a pond. then fill the rest of the water area up with gravel and try growing a riccia lawn


----------



## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

it looks awsome
it would look very good if you took the water out except for the front middle and filled in the rest with land and maybe even have a waterfall on the wood


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Water isn't a bad thing if done correctly, and there are a number of problems with the original set up. PDFs are not the most graceful of swimmers, especially dendrobates, but they can swim. Its a matter of making sure they can get out.

Many of the cases of drowning have involved bodies of water in which the frog could not navigate out of... while they do have intelligence, its seriously lacking in some respects... they basically see what is in front of them, so if land is behind them, they aren't going to see that, they are going to keep going forward. They will continue to swim perimeters and into corners until they tire out, which is when they have a drowning risk. The way around this would be to put rocks or some other thing they can climb out on, in the corners, and you set it up that if they swim against the glass within a few inches is a pull out spot.


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Yup that was the new plan. I was going to lower the water level just enough to where the water feature would function (about 2" depth) and fill in the rest with more gravel while leaving the middle open to form a pool. I used ground lava rock underneath and behind the wood and most all of that will be exposed when I take some more of the water out. this tank still needs some tweaks and refinements before and live animals go in here.

Joey, its not visible in the pic (i know bad pic, need a new cam) but theres a sm waterfall effect in the middle. Ill take a new pic tonight when I get off work.


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Tweaked the tank a little.


















I may just have to scrap the water idea altogether...


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Actually, that pond is excellent! if they swim along the glass, they will eventually hit land, no corners to get caught in, and the water is easy to get out of. Great modification  To make it more foresty and to contrast the plants better, toss some leaf litter (oak, magnolia, wild almond) over the gravel acting as land. It will make the broms and frogs pop out. The aquatic moss will also start spreading into the land area and up the waterfall where it likes. Give it a few months and you'll really start to see the moss spread where it likes.

Now other than leaves and frogs, don't add anything! lol, less is better in this case, and over time the broms will pup and fill in a lot of the space anyways.


----------



## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

I like it A LOT now, and second corey's suggestion about leaves.


----------



## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

That tank looks like it came right out of Panama! Congrats! THe modifications look great, and actually add interest to the display. I was going to suggest that you add some islands to the original setup to give the frogs somewhere to land. But you did that already. By the way, is that sand? If so, it look great! Where did you get it?


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks for the compliments everyone  

Khamul, thats actually a very fine gravel. CaribSea makes it. Part of their 'Super Natural' line of substrate. Almost any good aquarium store should have it. It comes in 50 lb bags. Theres the fine stuff and slight larger grained size.

Ive got a huge magnolia tree in my backyard to no shortage of leaves for sure!

Cheers!
Chris


----------



## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

Yea, that gravel looks like sand and it looks so natural.


----------



## masterbreed (May 9, 2006)

pics?


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Took some new shots tonight. leaf litter sure makes a difference. I figured out moving the light to the front makes the pic show better.










You can see the water feature a bit better here.









Enjoy everyone, 
Chris


----------



## joeyo90 (Nov 5, 2006)

that looks very nice


----------



## masterbreed (May 9, 2006)

yeah that looks really goood


----------



## Guest (Jan 11, 2007)

THose look some much nicer. Lighting does make the diff. Now, what is that green plant in the water feature?


----------



## JoshKaptur (Feb 17, 2004)

A+
your frogs will love climbin the mountain o' wood I suspect.


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Looks like java moss or something similar, the photo isn't up close enough to tell. In its place, most aquatic moss, not just java, would work, as well as the moss look-a-likes (actually liverworts) riccia and _Monosolenium tenerum_ (erroneously “Pellia”). 

These plants are usually grown aquatically, and the best way to get them to grow terrestrially is similar to how it is done in this tank... stick them in the pond under the waterfall and near the pond banks and if the moss likes the conditions, it will spread (likely up the waterfall). Lack of success growing these plants in more terrestrial conditions often has to do with taking aquatic stock and placing it in terrestrial conditions that the plant doesn't like... not enough light or water usually. This tank will probibly have good luck due to the lighting for the bromeliads (nice and strong) and lacks the heavy plantings of other tanks that would eventually block light to the mosses. Plants may spread from the waterways, but usually have part of the plant wicking water away from the stream to keep the whole plant moist. When these mosses grow terrestrially in the substrate, this is often substrate wet enough that most truly terrestrial mosses would just rot, and the plants suitable for the conditions are semi aquatic plants that love wet feet.

My only other recommendation... going back to leaf litter  I use two or three different types of leaves to get the effect I want. My goal is to develop the leaf litter into a couple of layers so that the frogs rarely come into contact with the substrate (in this case, the sand might stick to the frogs). I use oak leaves and magnolia leaves, with occasional wild almond leaves (used the same way as oak leaves, they just cover more ground). Wild almond leaves tend to be somewhat expensive, up to a dollar a leaf if you don't buy in bulk, but one leaf covers what would take me a half gallon bag of oak leaf to do otherwise :shock: The first layer is the layer that blocks the frogs from the substrate, and for this I soak the oak and wild almond leaves in water to make them super pliable... its like working with wet paper. They are layered over the substrate so that none of it is visible, and form a nice barrier. This layer goes right up to the edge, and often into the ponds. I only use oak and wild almond in the ponds, and usually toss a couple leaves in. Magnolia is not used for tadpoles, and I don't know how well it holds up to water, so I generally avoid magnolia in water, but I don't think there is anything bad about it. 

The second layer of leaves involves the stiffer magnolia leaves, which hold their structure for the better part of a year. This is where much of the springtail and frog hiding activity will occur. Basically do what is currently in the tank.

As the leaves break down, a "substrate" layer will develop over the sand... this is good. Keep adding fresh leaves on top as needed (whenever the magnolia stops holding most of its shape) and toss in some oak with fresh leaves. You'll get the broken down leaf layer (mmm compost), partially broken down/laying flat leaves, then the fresh leaves. Your pond water will turn a nice tannic color due to the leaves, unless you've got a filter in the water that has charcoal in it.


----------



## thekidgecko (Oct 30, 2006)

Dang that riccia grew fast lol


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Lookin good!


----------



## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Wow that looks good but time for some critical constructive critisism :lol: 

I am one for a nice lushly planted tank if i were you i would definatley toss in some dischida and pepperomia cuttings to climb on the wood. 

By the way i really do like the tank style!


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I think the 'under planted' look makes it stand out, and appear much more natural. I could see some more leaf litter in there, of different types, to provide more cover, and maybe a couple of selaginella to give some ground cover. For some reason, I think Truncs would look really cool in there.


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Yeup the green in the pond is Riccia fluitans. 

I think I can squeeze in a few more mag leaves. They're all kinda the same size however...

I only did the four broms with no other support plants so the tank wouldnt look too busy. 

After looking at peperomia I think that would look very nice as accents as the wood does look a bit naked.

Im glad people like this tank. Please feel free to add any other comments, criticism or whatever! I love new ideas!


----------



## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Given time the riccia will climb the wood and likely give you the cover you're looking for. Riccia needs high light, and having other plants in there could disrupt where the riccia might spread too, putting a tad bit of shade where the riccia is hoping to go... right now it looks like the riccia would likely spread all over the wood. You can give the riccia a kick start by taking some small chunks and placing them on the wood farther up the stream if you can secure it.


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Got me new froggies! Thanks Jon for some awesome lookin vents. My first thumbnails. So far they have been the most visible of any dart Ive kept. I can look in almost any time and find almost all five out in the open where I can see them.

I changed out the magnolia for oak leaves.










































Enjoy everyone!

Chris


----------



## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Looks great, good job!Im sure those vents will be breeding in no time!


----------



## nburns (May 3, 2005)

Nice shots, I love the coloring of that one brom.


----------



## raimeiken (Dec 24, 2006)

Wow, i really love the setup

how big is your tank and what's the temp/humidity in there? Oh and how much light you got in there?


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

Id like to know what kind of brom that is. Ive seen nothing like it anywhere.

Raim, the tank is a standard 58G. The lighting consists of two 3" VHOs (dont know the wattages off top of my head) and a standard watt 3" fluorescent strip. Humidity runs around 80%.


----------

