# Zoo Hybrids



## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

I took my family to the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado Springs over the holiday weekend. They have some amazing exhibits for for the giraffes an elephants. They should stick to big animals!

Every color of the rainbow!


















Pretty sad. It blows me away they can work on conservation projects like A. zeteki but are clueless when it comes to darts. 


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## xIslanderx (Dec 8, 2012)

Is that a Green Sip crossed with an Auratus?



Lukeomelas said:


> I took my family to the Cheyenne Mountain Zoo in Colorado Springs over the holiday weekend. They have some amazing exhibits for for the giraffes an elephants. They should stick to big animals!
> 
> Every color of the rainbow!
> 
> ...


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

xIslanderx said:


> Is that a Green Sip crossed with an Auratus?


Sadly this is not the first post on this. And from what I gather. The zoo's intrest is more to show them off as cool frogs than to keep the genetic lines pure. Correct me if I am wrong anyone. I am very much a novice in this and if am out of line let me know please. Im not trying to misinform anyone its just my oppinion based on what I have seen.

I do want to add that the zoo has no intention to release any of these frogs in anyway from there posesion. (not that makes it ok.) Again my opinion I may be tottaly out of line there two. I probly should not even respong to this thread without doing more leg work. But am more than open to being corrected an educated if anyone knows more than I do about it.


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

xIslanderx said:


> Is that a Green Sip crossed with an Auratus?


That's what it looks like. They also had some terribilis in there. 

This is really common in zoos. Just thought I would post some pics. I just am not a fan, that's all.


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## Wings (Apr 1, 2012)

You think that's bad, you should see the Gatlinburg Ripleys aquarium xD

Azureus, Auratus, Leucs, and Tincs all in the same enclosure. I didn't see any hybrids though. Maybe they had the common sense to pull and destroy.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

I wouldn't assume that they are hybrids or outcross. The tincs may be green sips but here are also auratus in the tank too. Many zoos have knowledgeable herpetologist on staff and they create displays that are friendly to the general public. This isn't necessarily friendly to what we like as hobbyest. Many zoo's do mix species and localities but normally the staff herp people will not raise offspring from the mixed environment. 

I recently went to the Bronx zoo and enjoyed their wonderful display tank of tincs, auratus, and Atelopus zeteki all mixed together. The Zeteki were amazing! I didn't get to talk with any of the herp people there, but they do have some smaller (younger) zeteki in this mixed tank, which tells me that they are likely breeding some behind the scenes. 

Brad


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Dendrobati said:


> I wouldn't assume that they are hybrids or outcross. The tincs may be green sips but here are also auratus in the tank too. Many zoos have knowledgeable herpetologist on staff and they create displays that are friendly to the general public. This isn't necessarily friendly to what we like as hobbyest. Many zoo's do mix species and localities but normally the staff herp people will not raise offspring from the mixed environment.
> 
> I recently went to the Bronx zoo and enjoyed their wonderful display tank of tincs, auratus, and Atelopus zeteki all mixed together. The Zeteki were amazing! I didn't get to talk with any of the herp people there, but they do have some smaller (younger) zeteki in this mixed tank, which tells me that they are likely breeding some behind the scenes.
> 
> Brad


Atlanta botanical gardens also has some great mixed tanks with no hybrids. But, they took the time to do it right. Take a look at the first pic, that is an obvious auratus/tinc hybrid. No question about it. 


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Lukeomelas said:


> Atlanta botanical gardens also has some great mixed tanks with no hybrids. But, they took the time to do it right. Take a look at the first pic, that is an obvious auratus/tinc hybrid. No question about it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Isn't the issue with hybridization the chance it will be released into the hobby? There doesn't seem much a chance of that here.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Well, it's also nice for zoo's to depict "our frogs" as natural as possible. Hybrids do not do that. 

The funny looking Auratus, front right of the 1st picture, might just be a funny looking auratus. He's thick bodied and could be puffing up, being aggressive with the frog on the other side of the rock.

Brad


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Come on Brad, you really think that's a standard auratus? It was very obvious in person. Not trying to argue with you. 


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Lukeomelas said:


> Come on Brad, you really think that's a standard auratus? It was very obvious in person. Not trying to argue with you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My professional opinion is that I'm sure the zoo's herp staff does a great job.
My personal opinion is that it looks like a Tincatus.


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Dendrobati said:


> My professional opinion is that I'm sure the zoo's herp staff does a great job.
> My personal opinion is that it looks like a Tincatus.


Good answer! I agree!


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

frogwatcher said:


> Sadly this is not the first post on this. And from what I gather. The zoo's interest is more to show them off as cool frogs than to keep the genetic lines pure. Correct me if I am wrong anyone. I am very much a novice in this and if am out of line let me know please. Im not trying to misinform anyone its just my opinion based on what I have seen.


Not to promote hybrids or anything, but I think "showing them off as cool frogs" is pretty important (and this can be achieved without hybrids). The more interest these frogs create the better for the conservation of frogs in general -- it's hard to garner conservation interests in relatively obscure animals like frogs, compared to large terrestrial mammals.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Could this lax be due to the fact that the zoo has no plans on moving these frogs anywhere and since dendrobatid frogs are not endangered it isn't seen as an important issue?


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## KevinS (Sep 23, 2008)

Dendrobait said:


> Could this lax be due to the fact that the zoo has no plans on moving these frogs anywhere and since dendrobatid frogs are not endangered it isn't seen as an important issue?


Yep, sounds like a reasonable assumption to me.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

KevinS said:


> Yep, sounds like a reasonable assumption to me.


I also doubt it was anything more than an accidental breeding. Hell, people miss eggs on here all the time, and I'm sure they are dealing with less husbandry demands than a zoo keeper


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## Athena (Mar 20, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> Not to promote hybrids or anything, but I think "showing them off as cool frogs" is pretty important (and this can be achieved without hybrids). The more interest these frogs create the better for the conservation of frogs in general -- it's hard to garner conservation interests in relatively obscure animals like frogs, compared to large terrestrial mammals.


This is a great point and is something that is a really serious issue that educational organizations (like zoos) have to think about all the time. 

A more dramatic example would be touch tanks in aquariums. On the one hand they're a HUGE hit with visitors, create some fantastic conversation and engagement, as well as just being a good interactive activity (for all visitors, 4 or 40 yrs old and isn't language dependent) in a setting where interactivity is... difficult. On the other hand touch tanks have _enormous_ mortality. Sometimes these animals don't last the day, never mind the week or the month. (this is *not* true of all touch tanks, for instance the "touch a skate" ones often have turn over... because they outgrow the tank!)

So where do they draw the line? If even a handful of those thousands of visitors are inspired to become a scientist, or donate money to a conservation fund, is the "wrong doing" worth it? 

It would be nice if we could always get that result with absolutely minimal negative impact to the health of animals or the integrity of their genetics/conservation, but that just isn't always the case.

As a personal story, I can tell you for a fact that one of those 'hybridiot' tanks at my aquarium (and zoo for that matter) inspired me, years and years later to get into dart frogs. I then found you guys and learned that it's wrong to do and why -- BEFORE mixing  

Would I have been equally as captivated with fewer frogs of the same morph in one tank? No idea, but maybe not. Community fish tanks have always been WAY cooler to me than single species tanks, even though as an aquarist there are some species that I keep that are in single species tanks for their health and safety.

Deep breath. 

Ok, so anyways, as someone who has worked in organizations like this I can tell you that *a LOT of thought goes into issues like this*. While it may have just been careless oversight or ignorance, chances are it was a deliberate decision and they understand the consequences.

Now..... that being said, they could always put up a little signage that says "hey! don't do this at home kids! Want to learn more, check out these cool sites: QR code/whatever" But that's where the folks from PR get involved and the people on the floor don't always get their way...


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## frogwatcher (May 9, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> Not to promote hybrids or anything, but I think "showing them off as cool frogs" is pretty important (and this can be achieved without hybrids). The more interest these frogs create the better for the conservation of frogs in general -- it's hard to garner conservation interests in relatively obscure animals like frogs, compared to large terrestrial mammals.


Dont get me wrong im not bashing them at all. I think it would be neat to see what can happen and all the different variations there kan be and since it is an environment were they wont make it into the hobby. I was just commenting on how they don't hold the same stricked rules of mixing.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

The other thing is that there's a lot more going on behind the scenes at good zoos than most people realize, in regards to breeding, quaranting, stud book info, and breeding efforts with other zoos.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It often happens that people leave their animals at the zoo because they no longer want to keep them or they can not keep them (especially with reptiles or snakes). Zoos make do as they can, regardless of anything other than keep them. They often have no protection projects or other about it. It's the only excuse that I can find. Otherwise, if it does so with awareness of the facts, the hybridization is a crime. That's my opinion of course!

PS: (I don't know if what I said was clear enough)


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

rigel10 said:


> It often happens that people leave their animals at the zoo because they no longer want to keep them or they can not keep them (especially with reptiles or snakes). Zoos make do as they can, regardless of anything other than keep them. They often have no protection projects or other about it. It's the only excuse that I can find. Otherwise, if it does so with awareness of the facts, the hybridization is a crime. That's my opinion of course!
> 
> PS: (I don't know if what I said was clear enough)


again, if there is no chance of the animal being released into the hobby what is the objection based on?


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## Logqan (Sep 24, 2008)

I worked in a herp for a while and we had a mixed dart tank. Tincs, auratus, leucs all together. I will certainly say that the guy in charge of the herp saw them as nothing more than a colorful attraction. They were taken care of just fine but there was no intention to breed, while there were breeding programs for other species. 

This is just one institution but I believe breeding of darts in most zoos is not a priority and if it happens the eggs are not a focus, unless there is a keeper with some down time.
Most zoos I have been to as well and met the staff hardly ever have an amphibian nerd in the crowd. So im sure something some of us take seriously they may not even see the issue. Im sure if the dart was threatened or endangered protocol would be different. Sad but the way it seems to go.


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

The Buffalo Zoo, at least, doesn't mix its darts, and the Toronto Zoo doesn't anymore. The Toronto Zoo used to mix auratus, azureus and leucomelas, but they appear to have separated them. Kind of unfortunate that zoos do this, but it's not the end of the world IMHO, as they aren't releasing the offspring. Mixing probably wouldn't be harmful if eggs that were found were destroyed before they hatched.


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## lhu659982 (Aug 31, 2012)

Whether the zoo groups the frogs together to create gorgeous hybrids or just to give them a home. I would say that in the words of the great fictional character Ian Malcolm, "No, I'm, I'm simply saying that life, uh... finds a way." I mean you put yourself in the frogs shoes. You spend your whole with with a certain group of people then one day you are moved to a new environment with all kinds of new people. You never know, maybe the girls/guys are a little better looking or don't talk so much (basically more desirable). Basically what I'm trying to say is if you open the door to it, breeding will more than likely happen. No matter how beautiful they are they have to stay yours and will always be yours. I am one who doesn't think it should happen. But last time I checked, only myself, my mom and my god care what I think.  

Nevertheless, that Auratorius looks pretty cool.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Phyllobates azureus said:


> The Buffalo Zoo, at least, doesn't mix its darts, and the Toronto Zoo doesn't anymore. The Toronto Zoo used to mix auratus, azureus and leucomelas, but they appear to have separated them. Kind of unfortunate that zoos do this, but it's not the end of the world IMHO, as they aren't releasing the offspring. Mixing probably wouldn't be harmful if eggs that were found were destroyed before they hatched.


Again, what is the basis for the issue if nothing is being released into the hobby? Are you guys part of some aryan-esque frog society that emphasizes "blood purity".

Because I fail to see the issue as anything more than reactionary


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

I think the main issues in zoos is that they could potentially be released to the wild, if say a population were to crash. However, I think many zoos are concerned with hybrids. We had a hybrid Victoria crowned pidgeon for years, until someone checked out her genetics and decided to swap her with another non-hybrid, with the intention to breed. So, if these guys are hybrids, they won't be sent into the breeding population of frogs, so I don't think there's anything to worry about.

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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Any shots of the whole setup. The frogs look rather healthy. Seems like it is a good viv but hard to tell with the tight shot on the frogs. Do you have an estimate on the size?


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## Lukeomelas (Mar 15, 2005)

Those were the only pics I grabbed. The tank was probably a standard 75 or 90 gallon tank. There was a bunch of frogs, probably 15-20 frogs in total. Nice viv and the frogs were well cared for.

I wasn't trying to point out "evil" zoo keepers. I just wanted to share my experience with others. Hybrid animals can be easily created and as a hobby it is important to keep our eyes open and point out poor husbandry choices weather that is a guy down the street or an accredited institution. I'm sure the zoo does a great job, but their dart frogs are being over looked and that is a shame. Coolest animals in the building and it leaves so much to be desired. At least for a frog dork like myself.


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Honestly, most of us keep darts better than the zoos I have seen. And this is behind the scenes as well. I heard so many horror stories about the Baltimore Aquarium from people I knew that volunteered there, that it is just shocking. They had hybrid azureus with I believe a cobalt tinc, or yellow head tinc. I can't remember for sure. They were odd though. Also poor hygiene stories along with very poor record keeping. Another thing I always find amusing is they will post one of the least toxic darts and not toxic to humans at all, describing how deadly and poisonous darts can be, and this is at most zoos I have been in. Now of course this is not 100% of them, but these are first hand accounts from the two closest to myself.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Why hybridize frogs? For what purpose? It is not to be reactionary or aryans. Here, on this forum, I learned that in America you were careful not only in frogs of the same species but even to look for frogs of the same import or the same breeder. I admire your accuracy! If you have any hybrid and you do not release these frogs in the hobby, there are no problems. But of course you can have a different opinion.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

> It is not to be reactionary or aryans.


Well, if the issue rests simply on the act of hybridization, it just seems without merit. Because there to be no inherent risk to the act itself. So it just leaves me perplexed that someone would take issue with it



> Here, on this forum, I learned that in America you were careful not only in frogs of the same species but even to look for frogs of the same import or the same breeder. I admire your accuracy!


Right, but that's about maintaining species and bloodlines for the hobby. With an aim to avoid a situation where frogs cannot be correctly identified and managed (like with Argus monitors)


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

To me it looks like those frogs (except perhaps the Auratus in the front) are morphing into a homogeneous phenotype. If the zoo wants to show "cool looking frogs" not mixing them would provide a broader array of colors and patterns to display. 

Say these guys are breeding somewhere in their enclosure, what do zoos do when they have too many of something? I thought they passed them on to responsible hobbyists or other zoos? If so, hybrids could spread into the hobby.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

oldlady25715 said:


> Say these guys are breeding somewhere in their enclosure, what do zoos do when they have too many of something? I thought they passed them on to responsible hobbyists or other zoos? If so, hybrids could spread into the hobby.


I don't believe that they ever give the animals to hobbists. The zoo I worked at frequently just lost frogs, and had new batches shipped in from other zoos, so it's only zoo to zoo transference.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Fantastica said:


> I think the main issues in zoos is that they could potentially be released to the wild, if say a population were to crash.


What? No. Zoos don't just release animals into the wild.


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

jacobi said:


> What? No. Zoos don't just release animals into the wild.


AZA zoos participate in the Species Survival Plan, so if a species is critically endangered, they'll have release programs in place. Some zoos are planning on doing this with Panama Golden Frogs.

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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Fantastica said:


> AZA zoos participate in the Species Survival Plan, so if a species is critically endangered, they'll have release programs in place. Some zoos are planning on doing this with Panama Golden Frogs.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2


But those are from managed populations, right? i think his meaning was that they wouldn't just release random frogs


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## Fantastica (May 5, 2013)

Splash&Dash said:


> But those are from managed populations, right? i think his meaning was that they wouldn't just release random frogs


Usually yes, especially with the Golden Frog. Right now, there's no breeding programs for aratus or azureus, or else they wouldn't be mixing them, so that's my point that it's not really a concern. But, if they do need to start breeding them, the zoos might be a bit ignorant with their studbooks if they're producing hybrids.


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## Splash&Dash (Oct 16, 2012)

Fantastica said:


> Usually yes, especially with the Golden Frog. Right now, there's no breeding programs for aratus or azureus, or else they wouldn't be mixing them, so that's my point that it's not really a concern. But, if they do need to start breeding them, the zoos might be a bit ignorant with their studbooks if they're producing hybrids.


as I mentioned before, this could have been nothing more than an accidental pairing in the tank


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