# "Time" - 60x45x90cm



## Greasy

Hey guys!

Thought I would show off a build I've been working on. Its been up for about a year and a half. But since this was my first tropical vivarium, it took me a little while troubleshooting and tweaking the conditions to get things to grow in nicely. I am going for an eroded hillside look that exposed some tree roots and over time got colonized by other vegetation. 

Anyway here are the build specs:

*Tank:*
Exo Terra Medium/X-Tall - 60x45x90 cm / 24”x18”x36” (WxDxH), glass canopy w/1.5" screened vent.

*Equipment:*
1x 60mm fan, 4x Mistking nozzles. 

*Lighting:*
14x XP-G Cree LEDs DIY dimmable solderless kit from rapidled. Mix of Cool(6000k) and Warm(3000k) whites w/ 40degree(front), 80degree(middle and back) lenses. Driven around 50%.

*Substrate:*
Hygrolon on the background. Peat, coco husk, sphagnum, sand, lava rocks, magnolia leaves on the bottom. 

*Hardscape:*
Removable background - expandable foam on egg crates and wires, cork bark, and rocks from a local rock yard. 

*Microfuana:*
Temperate and Silver Springtails, Dwarf Purple Isopods

*Flora:* (11/14*)
_Neoregelia inca x fireball

Hymenasplenium obscurum
Fern sp.

Ficus pumila var. quercifolia
Marcgravia rectifolia
Peperomia prostrata

Philodendron verrucosum
Syngonium erythrophyllum

Dossinia marmorata
Dracula lotax
Pleurothallis allenii
Stelis barbata

Utricularia asplundii
Utricularia jamesoniana 
Utricularia quelchii

Taxiphyllum sp. "peacock"
Vesicularia sp. "mini Xmas"
Sphagnum_

Some build photos...








I made the background by spraying expandable foam onto egg crates backed with weed blocker. I think it worked out pretty well, the egg crates with all those cubes adds surface area and acts like a spine. I wanted the background to be removable if I ever decide to redo the tank, also to help hold the resale value if I ever had to sell it. 









Everything was done outside the tank, including the silicon + peat coating. I made the "roots" independent to the rest of the background and much how you would do paper mache: wires, newspaper and tape as a base. Layer it up with GS and carve it down. I made them first, then wrapped the ends in wax paper, placed them where I wanted them on the background and finished up the rest with GS. I only attached them when the whole background was completed with silicon + peat. One problem I ran into is on the really thick areas of GS, it contracted and pulled in the egg crate. I had to cut slits into the background to help relieve the tension. 









Everything sealed up, attached and ready for planting. The whole background is held in place by a silicon bead at the side of both upper corners and by all the substrate and rocks at the bottom. I should be able to just cut free the corners if ever want to remove it. I eventually covered some of the background and roots with hygrolon to help hold a bit more moisture. I wasn't too concerned on how real the roots looked as I planned to have them covered with moss anyway. I just needed a nice shape. 









How it looks as of Nov '14. I made some adjustments, mainly flattening the background a bit to help allow more light to reach the bottom of the tank. I think it would look pretty good once the Philo fills up the upper right corner and the Syngonium fills up the middle void and the left side.









Different angle. I do plan to add a few more plants, I've been mostly waiting for the moss to fill in to provide a nice base. I was thinking of colonizing the "roots" with Peperomia sp. Isla Colon or maybe some Microgramma to help darken the overall look a bit. I also want to add some broms in the area to the left of the Neo. I tried Vriesea racinae, I'm not sure if it was my conditions or the fact it was flowering and therefore on its way out, but it didn't take very well. Anyone have any luck growing this in a viv? Any tips? Also anyone have any tips on growing Microsorum thailandicum? I thought it was suppose to be pretty bomb proof. Maybe my conditions are too cool... upper 70's/low 80's summer, 70 +/-5 spring and autumn and low 60's/high 50's winter.

Bonus pics:








Blooming Pleurothallis allenii









Pretty old pic, taken a few month after the tank was set up. Anyone know what sort of shroom that is?

Thanks for looking!


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## Polypodium

This is a great looking tank. Well done! What frogs are or will be living in there?


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## epiphytes etc.

That's your first viv huh? I tip my hat, great job. It looks both very natural and well managed at the same time.


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## jpg

This is one of the best vivariums I have had the pleasure of seeing here . Bravo sir bravo ...


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## diggenem

Your tank looks boss! What kind of moss you have growing?


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## Bunsincunsin

Wonderful vivarium! You did a fantastic job on the moss-covered branches/roots; I think they would look really nice with some filmy ferns or _Microgramma_ species snaking along them. The _P. verrucosum_ will look gorgeous, as well, once it fills in that back corner.

How are you liking your lights, so far?


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## xIslanderx

Holy crap, well done. I like how you broke down the list at the top there. Nice idea of what equipment you are using, size of Viv, etc. 
Great pics, keep them coming.


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## Greasy

Thanks for the compliments!

To answer your questions.



Polypodium said:


> This is a great looking tank. Well done! What frogs are or will be living in there?


I originally planned this tank for either leucs or the smaller tinc morphs. I toyed with the idea of having (get the torch and pitchforks ready) a tinc morph at the bottom and a Epipedobates species utilizing the top. But right now, sadly this tank is probably going to stay empty for awhile. I'm trying to change careers atm and I don't have the time to add another responsibility. I have other pets and a whole collection of carnivorous plants to take care of. =/ Right now its all automated, just add water. =P



diggenem said:


> Your tank looks boss! What kind of moss you have growing?


The moss you mostly see is Vesicularia sp. "mini Xmas". Oddly this took me awhile to get right, I tried a bunch of different mosses. I first tried some sort of aquatic moss, if I had to guess I would say some sort of frontinalis sp. That just looked bad. So I tried sheet moss next, the problem with that is that it grew upwards for me and looked very bushy and straggly. So I replaced that with Taxiphyllum sp. "peacock." I had issues with that being light sensitive and it turned yellow and bleached out on me. I also realized that it never produced rhizoids and therefore never attached itself to anything so It would keep falling off where ever I would place it. I do keep some growing at the bottom of the tank near the puddle area, looks much better. I mostly keep it just in case I go back into the planted aquarium hobby. Vesicularia seems to be working out, it attaches, grows low and compact and it seems to be able to handle the higher light level better. Though some at the top is a bit yellowed. It looks pretty nice if grown as an aquatic as well http://img2.sprzedajemy.pl/540x405_christmas-moss-mech--1142277.jpg
I try to avoid java moss at all cost...



Bunsincunsin said:


> Wonderful vivarium! You did a fantastic job on the moss-covered branches/roots; I think they would look really nice with some filmy ferns or _Microgramma_ species snaking along them. The _P. verrucosum_ will look gorgeous, as well, once it fills in that back corner.
> 
> How are you liking your lights, so far?


Haha, yah I was thinking of Microgramma lycopodioides, it sort of reminds me of java ferns. Ideally if I could find a species that is laced/strapped leafed and stays around 3inches in length that would be perfect, do you know any that would fit this criteria? I also plan to add more U. quelchii to the root when my current gets large enough to propagate.

The lights are not bad. They are extremely bright, can easily burn your plants if you have them turned up too high. They run cool as well, though I have them on a pretty massive finned heatsink. It makes taking photos of the tank a bit of challenge though...

I did have some issues growing a few plants that I thought were suppose to be pretty indestructible in a vivarium. I tried Cissus amazonica, Ludisia discolor and Microsorum thailandicum and a few other "easy" to grow plants. All failed to thrive, they didn't die and they did grow a little, but not at the rate I would expect. Oddly I took out the Ludisia and put it on the windowsill, open air, it is growing much better now. I still have a bit of that Cissus in the tank, but really hasn't grown at all and I had it there since the beginning of the year... From my understanding it is suppose to grow like a weed? I had this in a closed grow out terrarium by a window and it did much better at the time as well. I'm not to sure if this is an issue with the light or some other underlying problem. Some plants do really well tho... it's weird. Any suggestions? At any rate I recently replaced 2 cool whites with 2 warms to get more red into the tank. For a total of 4 warms, 10 cools, I may swap out more in the future. Or add in deep reds...

My lighting solution is a bit dated, I think I purchased everything about 2 years ago. There are better options now. If I were to make a new rig I would look into the new Bridgelux Veros. They are massive and extremely bright, I would go with the Vero 10s and a dimmer for sure. Vero® Series - Bridgelux
They come in high color rendering indexes, 90s for cools and 97 for the warms white decor line. The warm white decor line spikes really close to the 660nm wavelength. I would imagine this, mixed with cool whites would make a pretty nice setup and cover the spectrum pretty nicely. They don't seem to be too readily available, I've asked rapidled if they would carry them, they told me they would look into it. If anyone is interested in trying them I would suggest also emailing them requesting them. =) I see potential in these.
Beast mode vero rig on plantedtank:
LED Build, 526 Watts (Vero LEDs and Colored LEDs) *Updated 2014-10-10*


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## Spaff

This is a very well-done tank, and I think with a few accents is going to look great! I'm curious as to which fern is to the left of the P. verrucosum in the pictures? Is that the Hymenasplenium obscurum or just the un-ID'ed species?

Also how have your Utrics faired so far? I've tried a few other species from the Orchidioides section in my tanks, thinking they'd do well since they're epiphytic but all that I've tried have struggled so far.


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## stkupprnces

A very elegant tank...my hat's of to you!


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## Dendro Dave

Great viv! ...So all that moss on the main trunks/roots is growing on hygrolon or peat covered GS? ...looked like peat in the pic, but then you mentioned hygro... just wanted to make sure I got it right.


I've grown Cissus amazonica, Ludisia discolor (or other jewel orchids at least) and Microsorum thailandicum over the years and managed to kill them all at one time or another. Usually it seems to be root rot. Things start OK but as the viv grows in the plant density seems to increase humid microclimates and probably effect airflow from passive vents or even fans.

I think leaf litter kinda smothers them too having the same effect on the roots. So my theory is problems were possibly from the leaf litter (if u tried to grow them on the floor), increased humidity from more plant density, and cool temps part of the year probably added to the problem, and you have a fairly tall viv with a relatively shallow substrate layer, all things that might possibly make some plants in the wrong spots fail. 

For the floor you might try those plants in fern pots to raise them off the floor a bit, maybe with a coarser/faster draining substrate in the pot. Might add a extra fan or replace the 60mm with an 80mm or something. The tank looks moist/lush enough it could probably stand more airflow without drying out the moss and stuff.

I've also noticed when I leave new plants in their pots and let them acclimate to viv conditions they do better once unpotted usually. For example I had 2 begonia pavoninas... Unpotted one it quickly died, left the other in pot and it would show rapid new growth that would then rot away, did that over and over for a couple months like it was in turbo mode, then it settled down and the new mature leaves and roots would stay and not rot.

Every other pavonina I tried before that would also quickly die...but that one I let acclimate is still alive after more then a year I think. So I've taken to acclimating important plants in their pots and/or taking small cuttings or divisions and starting them in grow out containers that simulate viv conditions rather then the open air or greenhouse conditions many of our plants are used to when we get them. 

If you are up for paying a bit more for shipping to get some cool stuff like iridescent plants that are hard to come by here check out Siamgreenculture - Mail and Wholesale order fern, moss and other terrarium plants - Home

Tell them the plants are for a vivs and they won't use the harsh chemicals but you may get snails or slugs, so definitely wanna wash or even QT the mother plant and/or just take divisions/cuttings for the vivs. There is a chance you may even get bioluminescent snails! As the grower said they were common there. I didn't wash or Qt though in the hope of that and instead got slugs... non glowing jerk off slugs


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## Exasperatus2002

Awesome build! Thank you for sharing. Keep us updated.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## SDK

Very, very, very nice first effort 

Yours is a great example of "less is more" and I love the splash of color. Reminds me of a terrestrial interpretation of an Amano aquarium design..


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## rigel10

Before I see your pictures I thought your job was at the beginning, and I thought to write you that you could not put LED at 3000 ° K, saving money. But... It's all wonderful! Excellent solution for the background, great choice of plants (viv does not look overcrowded with plants, but it look balanced and natural), great choice of lights.
Well done! Bravo!


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## Greasy

Thanks guys!



Spaff said:


> This is a very well-done tank, and I think with a few accents is going to look great! I'm curious as to which fern is to the left of the P. verrucosum in the pictures? Is that the Hymenasplenium obscurum or just the un-ID'ed species?
> 
> Also how have your Utrics faired so far? I've tried a few other species from the Orchidioides section in my tanks, thinking they'd do well since they're epiphytic but all that I've tried have struggled so far.


That fern is the un-IDed one, I was hoping someone here could tell me what it is! Right now I'm just really hoping it doesn't grow larger then a foot long. I originally tried the H. obscurum in that spot, that didn't work out too well. So I tried Adiantum caudatum, too bright and too wet. I'm still kinda looking for a weeping fern. Something like this... http://131.230.176.4/users/pelserpb/7_5_11/5jul11/Aspleniumnormale.jpg Compound fronds that are long and narrow. There doesn't seem like there are any available that doesn't get massive. 

I think the Utrics are doing ok. As in a see a ton of subterranean growth, but not a whole lot of leaves yet. I would know if they are happy sometime next spring. I had the asplundii and alpina for years and grew them on the windowsill, they bloom for me each year in the spring. I acquired the quelchii and endresii last year, almost lost both on the windowsill. They bounced back once I added them into the tank. Its not in the pic but I keep all four in little 2 inch pots in that puddle area. Both asplundii and alpina are growing smaller and produce much less robust leaves in the tank then they did on the windowsill, but at the same time the underground growth is much stronger. I think the key for these guys is high light levels, and cool conditions. During this summer none of them really grew, but now that the temps are around 70 they are resuming growth. What are your temps and what species did you try?



Dendro Dave said:


> Great viv! ...So all that moss on the main trunks/roots is growing on hygrolon or peat covered GS? ...looked like peat in the pic, but then you mentioned hygro... just wanted to make sure I got it right.(


I originally had just the peat, but I eventually covered it with the hygrolon when I tried the current moss. 

Thanks for the tips. The only one I tried on the floor was the Ludisia, I can see your point with the leaf litter smothering the roots. I had this really weird issue the other month. Up until then I had Macodes petola growing around a Dossinia marmorata var dayii. It grew really well, well enough that I had to give some away. But all a sudden the whole group just collapse and rotted away. I suspected the soil became too waterlogged or something and the plant caught a pathogen, but oddly the Dossinia was fine. I eventually changed the soil and swapped the var. dayii for a "typical" one. I wanted a bit a green on the leaves. Honestly I'm not even sure if it was that, I saw the Macodes that I gave my sister over the weekend, she kept it like a marsh plant, completely waterlogged and sealed! And it is some how still alive and blooming! I dunno man. Just wondering have you grown Syngonium erythrophyllum and Peperomia prostrata? These have always been a bit slow growing for me. I'll look into swapping out that 60mm for a 80mm fan. 

Thanks for the link, I love ferns! I wanted to incorporate more ferns on to the background, but most seem to get too big for this sort of application. =/ 



SDK said:


> Very, very, very nice first effort
> 
> Yours is a great example of "less is more" and I love the splash of color. Reminds me of a terrestrial interpretation of an Amano aquarium design..


Hehe, I drew a lot of inspiration from Nature style aquariums.  I tried to limit my plant selection to around 10ish... It's hard, too many options.


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## FroggyKnight

This tank is awesome! Great job, I just love the moss growth! 

John


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## Spaff

IceDragon said:


> Thanks guys!
> 
> That fern is the un-IDed one, I was hoping someone here could tell me what it is! Right now I'm just really hoping it doesn't grow larger then a foot long. I originally tried the H. obscurum in that spot, that didn't work out too well. So I tried Adiantum caudatum, too bright and too wet. I'm still kinda looking for a weeping fern. Something like this... http://131.230.176.4/users/pelserpb/7_5_11/5jul11/Aspleniumnormale.jpg Compound fronds that are long and narrow. There doesn't seem like there are any available that doesn't get massive.
> 
> I think the Utrics are doing ok. As in a see a ton of subterranean growth, but not a whole lot of leaves yet. I would know if they are happy sometime next spring. I had the asplundii and alpina for years and grew them on the windowsill, they bloom for me each year in the spring. I acquired the quelchii and endresii last year, almost lost both on the windowsill. They bounced back once I added them into the tank. Its not in the pic but I keep all four in little 2 inch pots in that puddle area. Both asplundii and alpina are growing smaller and produce much less robust leaves in the tank then they did on the windowsill, but at the same time the underground growth is much stronger. I think the key for these guys is high light levels, and cool conditions. During this summer none of them really grew, but now that the temps are around 70 they are resuming growth. What are your temps and what species did you try?


As far as fern suggestions, take a look at the Madagascan Asplenium species that Andy's orchids sell. From what I've seen the individual plants stay relatively compact and have a leaf shape similar to what you describe. They do produce plantlets from the tips of fronds, but those could be pinched off if you didn't like where they were growing. Those species seem relatively easy to grow in-viv as well. 

I've tried U. alpina and asplundii in frog tanks before, and they struggled. My tanks run a bit warmer than most people, topping out in the low 80s. I also grew them truly mounted in there, whereas is seems like you're growing them with wet feet. I have grown (or have had in the past) U. alpina, asplundii, quelchii, Jitka, praetermissa, and reniformis in a tank designed to grow orchids. I had moderate success blooming alpina and asplundii until the tank overheated one summer and caused them to crash. The others were stolon cuttings that I still have but I've been getting mainly submerged grown with minimal leaf development.


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## Greasy

Spaff said:


> As far as fern suggestions, take a look at the Madagascan Asplenium species that Andy's orchids sell. From what I've seen the individual plants stay relatively compact and have a leaf shape similar to what you describe. They do produce plantlets from the tips of fronds, but those could be pinched off if you didn't like where they were growing. Those species seem relatively easy to grow in-viv as well.
> 
> I've tried U. alpina and asplundii in frog tanks before, and they struggled. My tanks run a bit warmer than most people, topping out in the low 80s. I also grew them truly mounted in there, whereas is seems like you're growing them with wet feet. I have grown (or have had in the past) U. alpina, asplundii, quelchii, Jitka, praetermissa, and reniformis in a tank designed to grow orchids. I had moderate success blooming alpina and asplundii until the tank overheated one summer and caused them to crash. The others were stolon cuttings that I still have but I've been getting mainly submerged grown with minimal leaf development.


Alright, I'll take a look. 
It may have been your temps, is it like that the whole year? I know some people over on Terraforums grows them pretty waterlogged, some mentioned they also have better growth with warm white lights. I have some asplundii on the background as well, you could sorta see them in that P. allenii pic. Those are old leaves when I placed them there earlier this year, but all those faint white lines are the stolons reaching out. I'm a bit worried it will be hard to contain later. I've been slowly migrating some of the U. quelchii up on that root with that unIDed fern. U. jamesoniana is in that area as well.


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## Dendro Dave

IceDragon said:


> I originally had just the peat, but I eventually covered it with the hygrolon when I tried the current moss.
> 
> Thanks for the tips. The only one I tried on the floor was the Ludisia, I can see your point with the leaf litter smothering the roots. I had this really weird issue the other month. Up until then I had Macodes petola growing around a Dossinia marmorata var dayii. It grew really well, well enough that I had to give some away. But all a sudden the whole group just collapse and rotted away. I suspected the soil became too waterlogged or something and the plant caught a pathogen, but oddly the Dossinia was fine. I eventually changed the soil and swapped the var. dayii for a "typical" one. I wanted a bit a green on the leaves. Honestly I'm not even sure if it was that, I saw the Macodes that I gave my sister over the weekend, she kept it like a marsh plant, completely waterlogged and sealed! And it is some how still alive and blooming! I dunno man. Just wondering have you grown Syngonium erythrophyllum and Peperomia prostrata? These have always been a bit slow growing for me. I'll look into swapping out that 60mm for a 80mm fan.
> 
> Thanks for the link, I love ferns! I wanted to incorporate more ferns on to the background, but most seem to get too big for this sort of application. =/
> 
> 
> 
> Hehe, I drew a lot of inspiration from Nature style aquariums.  I tried to limit my plant selection to around 10ish... It's hard, too many options.


Thanks, and no prob. Don't think I've grown the 2 you asked about, sorry. Everytime it looks like I'm finally getting it right with jewel orchids it all goes horribly wrong. I plan to keep trying though, and I've had similar experiences where all a sudden things just collapse with them or other plants. I think it is the microclimate and soil changes in a mostly closed system. Hard to predict and account for in the long term, and sometimes happen so fast we and the plant can't cope. Sometimes its other plants shading or crowding them out. I've lost a lot of plants cuz I got lazy with the pruning 

If you get any thing cool from siamgreen (especially iridescent) and have some success please keep me in mind for some cuttings/divisions. I also like ultrics... I'm to poor for a big international order for now, but can usually come up with a few bucks for domestically sourced plants  .

I'm also trying to move towards the nature aquarium Amano like style 

Best wishes and again great viv. Nice to have new people join us with lots of plant and aquarium experience that can jump right in with a great viv and share their knowledge/experience with us.


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## brendan0923

That is an awesome viv, I like the moss on the background! Also, beautiful plants! ☺ Good work!


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## Drewbacca

Very well done sir. 👏 this is such an inspiration to anyone who is looking to add a similar look to their vivs. A lot of us try to create this type of fixture, but loose sight of what are trying to accomplish. 10 out of 10 stars!!!


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## ChrisAZ

Very nice! I appreciate clean artistic design and you've done it well here. I do have some questions for you if that's alright.

1) Would you be willing to explain the substrate layering on the floor of vivarium in a little more detail?

2)As far as the mini-xmas moss, I've only found it for sale in small golf ball sized pieces on ebay and it's not cheep. My questions are how much moss did you start out with, how long did it take to fill in completely and do you have a method for fast propagation outside the terarrium such as growing it out aquatically first?

Thanks for for taking the time to share your experience.


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## Greasy

Dendro Dave said:


> If you get any thing cool from siamgreen (especially iridescent) and have some success please keep me in mind for some cuttings/divisions.


Heh, I looked into it. I don't think I will be ordering anytime soon, they suggest Cal people to get import permits... =/



ChrisAZ said:


> Very nice! I appreciate clean artistic design and you've done it well here. I do have some questions for you if that's alright.
> 
> 1) Would you be willing to explain the substrate layering on the floor of vivarium in a little more detail?
> 
> 2)As far as the mini-xmas moss, I've only found it for sale in small golf ball sized pieces on ebay and it's not cheep. My questions are how much moss did you start out with, how long did it take to fill in completely and do you have a method for fast propagation outside the terarrium such as growing it out aquatically first?
> 
> Thanks for for taking the time to share your experience.


Hmm, it's been awhile I think on top of the drainage level I have lava rocks, then a mix of coco husk, peat and sand, then coco husk a sphagnum on top of that, finally leaf litter. Around the jewel orchid tho is just lava rocks and sphagnum. For the most part I don't plan to plant much on the ground level. If I ever get frogs I want them to be able to hop around unimpeded.

I got my moss off plantedtank, as a golf ball size portion $10. What you see is about a years worth of growth, I haven't thinned it out yet, at most I trim a bit to seed other areas. My suggestion is spread it thin and let it fill it, it grows in more natural that way. If you have a aquarium with CO2, it would grow pretty quickly I would imagine. 

Also a word of warning for those that plan to use aquarium moss. There is a lot of misIDed aquarium moss and liverworts circulating out there, and to the untrained eye they look all the same. To make matters worse they often take on different phenotypes depending on growing conditions. But as I demonstrated different genus have different attributes. I suggest looking for sellers that offer a wide selection of different mosses, presumably they should be able properly ID their stocks, and don't be afraid to ask questions.


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## AlexMak

Wow!! This is absolutely fantastic!! Can you please give us some updates?


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## cam1941

How's this badboy holding up? Really an incredible set up as you know. Any updated pics?


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## Greasy

I've been meaning too, but honestly the growth hasn't been as good as I have hoped. I recently changed the light, swapped out more cools for neutral whites. Maybe this weekend... I will snap some overall tank pics. But I have been having some good blooms lately! 

D. lotax









U. asplundii 









This one isn't part of the display but I grow it in a small pot at the bottom of the tank...
U. alpina


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## cam1941

Very cool man, looking forward to it... One of the best parts of this hobby is being able to watch a great set-up mature. 

Those flowers and pics are gorgeous, I especially like the U. asplundii.


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## inka4040

Wow. A really spectacular build. Really loving the utrics!


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## SMenigoz

Greasy said:


> The moss you mostly see is Vesicularia sp. "mini Xmas". Oddly this took me awhile to get right, I tried a bunch of different mosses. I first tried some sort of aquatic moss, if I had to guess I would say some sort of frontinalis sp. That just looked bad. So I tried sheet moss next, the problem with that is that it grew upwards for me and looked very bushy and straggly. So I replaced that with Taxiphyllum sp. "peacock." I had issues with that being light sensitive and it turned yellow and bleached out on me. I also realized that it never produced rhizoids and therefore never attached itself to anything so It would keep falling off where ever I would place it. I do keep some growing at the bottom of the tank near the puddle area, looks much better. I mostly keep it just in case I go back into the planted aquarium hobby. Vesicularia seems to be working out, it attaches, grows low and compact and it seems to be able to handle the higher light level better. Though some at the top is a bit yellowed. It looks pretty nice if grown as an aquatic as well http://img2.sprzedajemy.pl/540x405_christmas-moss-mech--1142277.jpg
> I try to avoid java moss at all cost...


I liked the way you described the successes and failures with establishing moss. Good experience for us all.


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## ChrisAZ

This thread has definitely been very useful and inspiring to me as well. I put some of your moss experience into practice and tried some of the mini Xmass moss myself. It's doing well. There are many other potential moss species available for experimentation in the planted tank hobby as well. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Greasy

Glad the info is useful! One thing I noticed about mini xmas moss, is that it doesn't spread on its own a whole lot. Which could be a good thing depending on how manicured you want to keep your display... I always have to take clipping to seed other areas. 

If you guys do decide to try other aquarium moss, share some pics! I am also curious how the others look emersed.


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## pdfCrazy

Fresh FTS's!!


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## Greasy

Alright took a quick pic... Not too much has changed, as far as growth goes. 

Some changes includes:

- Switched the 60mm fan for an 80mm
- Added an additional misting nozzle for a total of 5

- Lights are now 6 cool, 4 neutral, and 4 warm whites Cree XP-G and XP-G2. Raised lights higher above the tank. 

Plant list (11/15): 

_Neoregelia inca x fireball

Hymenasplenium obscurum
Microgramma sp. 
Fern sp.

Ficus pumila var. quercifolia
Marcgravia rectifolia
Peperomia sp. Isla Colon

Philodendron verrucosum
Syngonium erythrophyllum

Dracula lotax
Pleurothallis allenii
Stelis barbata

Utricularia asplundii
Utricularia jamesoniana
Utricularia quelchii

Taxiphyllum sp. "peacock"
Vesicularia sp. "mini Xmas"
Sphagnum sp._


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## Greasy

For those interested in mosses, this EU retailer has a nice list of mosses that could be of some use in a emersed set up. https://www.aquasabi.com/aquatic-plants/mosses/

Difficult to import... but its a nice reference... the 1-2-Grow! cups can be found from various online retailers in the states however.


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## Drewbacca

What a beautiful setup you have created! This is just one example of what I aspire to accomplish one day with my builds. ;P Thanks for the update with the full tank shot!

-Drew


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## rigel10

My experience with these mosses grown "in vitro" with a gelatinous substrate. In any viv I put this kind of moss, I lost frogs! I personally will not use these products more - better normal moss.
If you use this moss grown with gel substrate, I highly recommend you clean well well well and rinse very very very much.
This is my experience!


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## ChrisAZ

rigel10 said:


> My experience with these mosses grown "in vitro" with a gelatinous substrate. In any viv I put this kind of moss, I lost frogs! I personally will not use these products more - better normal moss.
> 
> If you use this moss grown with gel substrate, I highly recommend you clean well well well and rinse very very very much.
> 
> This is my experience!



The good news is aquatic mosses like most of the ones mentioned and many more are available here in the states and are usually sold tied to stainless steel mesh or just rolled up in a ball (often sold in golf ball sized portions). The mosses themselves are of course safe, the water crystal gels mentioned may be the threat to frogs, but I'm experienced with the mosses not the gels just to be clear. A great source for those types of mosses would be in the classified adds in freshwater aquarium forums like 'the planted tank forum' and many others. Most mosses used in the aquarium trade are just regular mosses that will grow on land(emersed) or underwater(submerged).


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## rigel10

I refer to the gel. I knew that it was harmful to shrimp. I find no other explanation for the deaths of the frogs - they were alive and kicking until a few days before. For this suspicion, I will not use more moss with gel, but only "normal" aquatic mosses, like the one you mentioned on stainless steel - but coming from unfertilized aquariums.


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## a hill

rigel10 said:


> I refer to the gel. I knew that it was harmful to shrimp. I find no other explanation for the deaths of the frogs - they were alive and kicking until a few days before. For this suspicion, I will not use more moss with gel, but only "normal" aquatic mosses, like the one you mentioned on stainless steel - but coming from unfertilized aquariums.



I can almost guarantee that the moss and "gel" (which is agar; see wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar) did not kill your frogs. Something else did. 

Also, aquarium fertilizer for growing moss will not endanger frogs. Maybe soaking them in it will, but barely any are on the plants. 

Now if the plants were dipped in a bath containing copper to kill snails or other stuffs, that could kill some stuff, yet highly unlikely since the plant is supposed to be rinsed with rodi water if done properly. 

At one point I had the largest collection of aquatic mosses in North America, and was corresponding with a bryologist in Singapore. 

It's more likely residue on your hands killed the frogs. 

-Andrew


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## a hill

Rigel, it looks like you're in Italy. This country is one that is required to bath plants if memory serves me correctly. So you may have gotten badly handled plants. 

A few years back people I know across Europe lost many sensitive invertebrates in their aquariums due to this practice. 

-Andrew


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## outrageouslyfabulous

Nice viv! How are the Utricularia plants doing now? Where did you get them?


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## TheCoop

Beautiful Viv, my first looked like a forest vomited/then exploded


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## rigel10

a hill said:


> Rigel, it looks like you're in Italy. This country is one that is required to bath plants if memory serves me correctly. So you may have gotten badly handled plants.
> 
> A few years back people I know across Europe lost many sensitive invertebrates in their aquariums due to this practice.
> 
> -Andrew


Thank you. Mine is just a hunch, of course, but unfortunately frogs where I put that moss died, not others.
@Greasy: Sorry for my OT.


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## tardis101

It's really nice. I envy the folks who have moss. I'm still working on getting that to grow. It's great though!


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## rulzunivrs

The allenii is such a great Viv plant. Mine is pretty much always in bloom. Have you tried luctuosa? It's a great little multi floral. Beautiful vivarium!


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## Greasy

a hill said:


> I can almost guarantee that the moss and "gel" (which is agar; see wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agar) did not kill your frogs. Something else did.
> 
> Also, aquarium fertilizer for growing moss will not endanger frogs. Maybe soaking them in it will, but barely any are on the plants.
> 
> Now if the plants were dipped in a bath containing copper to kill snails or other stuffs, that could kill some stuff, yet highly unlikely since the plant is supposed to be rinsed with rodi water if done properly.
> 
> At one point I had the largest collection of aquatic mosses in North America, and was corresponding with a bryologist in Singapore.
> 
> It's more likely residue on your hands killed the frogs.
> 
> -Andrew


I agree I doubt the agar or aquarium ferts would damage anything. Probably some other contaminates. Did you ever document the mosses you had Andrew?

The user that I bought my moss from on plantedtank apparently started his own business. I would recommend getting moss from him, he has a nice selection as well. Plants - Mosses - Han Aquatics




outrageouslyfabulous said:


> Nice viv! How are the Utricularia plants doing now? Where did you get them?


I think they are doing alright, during the summer I had a bit of die back. They are highland plants that like things a bit cooler then I can provide during that time of year. They should start to perk up a bit. I got them from all over the place, private growers and from UCD's conservatory when I attended college. Most of the time you have to watch carnivorous plant forums, they pop up from time to time. Native Exotics I think is selling a bunch of different species real soon. 



rulzunivrs said:


> The allenii is such a great Viv plant. Mine is pretty much always in bloom. Have you tried luctuosa? It's a great little multi floral. Beautiful vivarium!


Yah mine blooms a lot too! I haven't tried that species, it looks nice. Just no room atm!


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## rigel10

Is this the same Utricularia we can find in aquarium shops? They are quite common here, but "difficult" plants, not for novices to aquariums.


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## Greasy

rigel10 said:


> Is this the same Utricularia we can find in aquarium shops? They are quite common here, but "difficult" plants, not for novices to aquariums.


Nope! These are Orchidioides utrics, epiphytes from the highlands of South America.


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## rigel10

Thanks, I did not know this plant. Beautiful flowers!


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## Marty

Looks gorgeous !


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## TJ_Burton

Any updates?

Would love to see more photos.


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## Damon Ryan

So the two mosses you used is peacock and Mini xmas? Did you mix them? It looks amazing 


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## Greasy

Yup two mosses used intentionally are the peacock and mini xmas. They are separate. Peacock do not produce rhizoids, so they do not attach to anything. I use it for the bottom of the tank. Mini Xmas does, so I can get it to grow vertical on the background. 

I probably won't have any new pictures for awhile. =/ I've moved out of the country for a bit... I may be able to get an updated photo later in the year tho.


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## Damon Ryan

Greasy said:


> Yup two mosses used intentionally are the peacock and mini xmas. They are separate. Peacock do not produce rhizoids, so they do not attach to anything. I use it for the bottom of the tank. Mini Xmas does, so I can get it to grow vertical on the background.
> 
> 
> 
> I probably won't have any new pictures for awhile. =/ I've moved out of the country for a bit... I may be able to get an updated photo later in the year tho.



Awesome thanks. Did you just lay the moss where you wanted it? How did you get it to wrap around everything so nice? Thank you. 


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## Greasy

Yup! spread it thin and keep it very wet till it attaches. It doesn't spread much, so when it gets long you have to pull it to new areas.


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## Damon Ryan

Greasy said:


> Yup! spread it thin and keep it very wet till it attaches. It doesn't spread much, so when it gets long you have to pull it to new areas.



I put it in my tank recently and it drying up a little but I'm going to get it more wet. 


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## Mork

This is a stunning tank - I love the intense moss growth. 

What is your misting / fogging regime?


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## oldlady25715

Mork said:


> This is a stunning tank - I love the intense moss growth.
> 
> What is your misting / fogging regime?


And curious as to where is the drain on the tank? 

Very cool setup!


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## Greasy

Mork said:


> This is a stunning tank - I love the intense moss growth.
> 
> What is your misting / fogging regime?


I right now it is once a day, around 4ishpm for I think 30-45 seconds. I've been slowing cutting it down as the plants grow in. 



oldlady25715 said:


> And curious as to where is the drain on the tank?
> 
> Very cool setup!


I have to manually drain the tank. Usually when that little pond area gets about an inch or two, I siphon it out. Takes a few months before I have to go in and do it though. So not too bad.


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## sumer

Greasy said:


> I have to manually drain the tank. Usually when that little pond area gets about an inch or two, I siphon it out. Takes a few months before I have to go in and do it though. So not too bad.


Why did you not make a drain? Just wondering!


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## urbanjungle

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## Greasy

A mini update of sorts. I haven't seen my tank for the past 4 months or so, but my folks were kind enough to send me a pic of it, the photo is enhanced. Getting pretty over grown! Going to need some maintenance, whenever I return to the states. 

I really wish the Syngonium erythrophyllum and the philo would grow faster. Anybody have any tips on these? Temp, water, lighting conditions? 

If you look closely above the fern in the middle, there is a tiny Utricularia jamesoniana flower. Pretty happy about that. 

As far as the drain goes, just didn't feel like drilling a hole...


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## Gibbs.JP

Oh man, that's just stunning! I love the look of the Philodendron verrucosum


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## baskis

Wow that is ridiculous. Definitely saving this one


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## Lake

Wow, that's so lush and nice!


-Lake


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## Damon Ryan

That's mini xmas moss? That's amazing. What kind of lighting do you have? 


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## Drewbacca

Very, VERY nice!!! That is an amazing progress shot...

-Drew


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## erikm

Fantastic growth! I love all of the trailing peperomia.


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## roundfrog

that is BEAUTIFUL!!!!! It is literally like a slice or the jungle.


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## dentex

O. M. G.
This is one of the best picture of its kind I've ever seen (a bit too much post-produced, but still awesome).


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## epiphytes etc.

Spectacular , well done!


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## Greasy

Thanks!

Yes most of the moss you see is mini xmas, though there is a bit of sphagnum in there. I really need to thin it out this winter though. It is the same growth as when I started the tank.

Lights are cree XP-G, though I think the off the shelf fixtures are good enough now a days, that you don't have to do custom builds now. Shooting photos under these lights are a bit hard, you tend to get really dark shadows and very over exposed spots. Besides this most recent photo, that had some post-processing, the previous photos I had to turn down the lights to the absolute lowest setting to get a decent picture without having to edit it.


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## diggenem

That viv looks amazing!!!

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## TheForSaken

Nicely done!
I'm curious on your fan placement, do you have it inside the viv circulating air within or is it placed elsewhere sucking or blowing?


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## Greasy

TheForSaken said:


> Nicely done!
> I'm curious on your fan placement, do you have it inside the viv circulating air within or is it placed elsewhere sucking or blowing?


I have the fan inside the tank on the left side blowing at the background, it is visible in some of the pictures I posted. There is a partially covered vent right above it so I wouldn't be surprised if a little air is being blown out of the tank.


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## bikerdawg

Wow. Very impressive. Well laid out and beautiful viv.


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## Greasy

It's been awhile since I last saw my tank. I am back in the area for a bit so here is an update! 









The state of the tank while overgrown, is pretty poor so I decided to start over. 


I decided to flatten the back as much as possible and reduce overhang. I felt overall it just blocked lighting to the bottom and prevented even distribution of watering. There was always a spot in the middle where nothing could grow. I also removed the main "root" and reshaped it a bit so it sits higher from the ground. The whole background is on eggcrate and removable, that made things so much easier to work with. The false bottom has been shortened and the soil replaced with aquarium substrate, Fluval stratum.










Mostly kept the same plants, though I did lose some over the years. I decided to remove the Syngonium erythrophyllum, didn't look quite right. Replaced it with some Syngonium rayii I had around. 

Replaced the old neo with a "grapevine", the leaves are wider and the plant looks more full. If I can find another neo with the same pattern as the inca x fireball, but with the same shape as the grapevine that would be ideal. If anyone has any suggestion let me know! 

Moss has been replaced with typical xmas moss. The mini collapsed awhile ago... hopefully this one species will be a bit hardier.










Plant list (1/19):

_Neoregelia 'grapevine'

Hymenasplenium obscurum
Microgramma sp.

Ficus pumila var. quercifolia
Marcgravia rectifolia
Peperomia sp. Isla Colon

Philodendron verrucosum
Syngonium rayii

Dracula lotax
Pleurothallis allenii

Utricularia asplundii


Fissiden geppi/nobilis
Plagiochilaceae sp. "Cameroon Moss"
Sphagnum sp.
Vesicularia montagnei_










Maybe I'll get some frogs this year, thinking thumbnails...


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## hydrophyte

This is really nice. I just discovered this and scrolled through the old pictures as well. I look forward to seeing how this refurbish grows in.


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## dentex

It's already looking great! Back then, I fell in love with the "post produced" picture from the 2016... Basically it's one of those photos that got me into building my own terrarium.


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## chillplants

I do like seeing the "overgrown" look, very natural and undisturbed over time. It is, however, not very aesthetically pleasing. I had a tank that was very successful growing plants and looking wild, but I couldn't enjoy it. Looking forward to seeing what happens with the latest adjustments.


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## Greasy

Glad you guys find it inspirational. 

The overgrown look can work, but in this case all the leaves at the top were all deformed and bleached! And the combination of two large leafed plants kind of smothered all the smaller plants too. Hence why one of them, the syngonium had to go. I think my soil was also pretty depleted, even some of the plants at the bottom looked a bit off. 

Anyway I am trying out some new plants in the tank. A vriesea and M. thailandicum. I tried them years ago but they started to declined so I pulled them. That was before i changed the spectrum though. Have anyone had any luck with M. thailandicum? I seen other people use them, but I found this plant difficult to keep, even in my spare cutting tank it slowly declined over the past few years.


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## asteroids

Any updates?


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## Greasy

asteroids said:


> Any updates?


Sort of, Got stuck in Aus at the start of the pandemic and just waiting for things to get better now. Last I seen the tank doesn't look too great, too little maintenance, so the microclimates are sort of out of balance and some things are dying, due to overgrowth and crowding and probably too much humidity. I did get frogs though, those are doing alright. Whenever I go home I'll probably have to do another major redesign on it.


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## asteroids

yeah a redesign would be cool. I saw the fake vines u made with the paper machay, and then u covered with foam. Do u think PVC pipes could work too? I would heat them up and then get desired shape, but I dont know if the foam would stick. If the foam did stick, i dont know how I would foam them since they r pretty small. How did u foam ur vines? its probably pretty self explanatory but for some reason it seems complicated to me. Any tips? thanks


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## tinc2344

You can wrap PVC with twin then foam over that so it adheres. I did that to make structures for a reef tank, except used a cement mixture instead of foam.


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## asteroids

I just came across some threads of seeing the effects of burning PVC... I dont want to do it anymore. Even if I am fully protected with a respirator I wouldn’t want that stuff going into the environment and hurting animals. I think I am going to use Greasy’s method of wire as structure, then building up with newspaper and finally foam. I’d rather be safe than sorry.


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## tinc2344

Depending on what diameter you want you could use spaflex, coats more than pvc but easily bendable and don't have to burn it.


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## Greasy

asteroids said:


> I just came across some threads of seeing the effects of burning PVC... I dont want to do it anymore. Even if I am fully protected with a respirator I wouldn’t want that stuff going into the environment and hurting animals. I think I am going to use Greasy’s method of wire as structure, then building up with newspaper and finally foam. I’d rather be safe than sorry.


Yah, fairly easy, the newspaper is just for surface area. Spray in layers, one side at a time. I placed them on wax paper while they cured so the foam wont stick to stuff. Once you get the bulk to what you want just carve down. I will say one of the reasons I want to redesign the tank is, the foam holds zero water even with all the holes. They hygrolon didn't really help either. Maybe a dryloc coating would be better? It's hard to get things started without always misting. The next build I want to do is all natural material. Cork pushpin panels and a corkbark mosaic log of sorts.


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## asteroids

From what I’ve heard other people say, drylock doesnt hold much moisture. Maybe the hygrolon needs to be frequently misted to really wick a lot of water. I am looking forward to that build ur talking about, it seems like it will be good.


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