# Amazonicus pricing



## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I've been shopping for Amazonicus the last couple weeks and I find something very odd. It seems it is accepted now that Amazonicus are more or less the nominant or unlocated form of amazonica, right? Little to no collection data. Most likely they are from near the same Iquitos area as what we are calling "Iquitos". Why then are the "Iquitos", which have specific collection data only 50-65$, where as amazonicus (quite possibly the same frog without data) range from 70-100$. How does this make sense? I know it is not known for sure that they are the same frog, but really no other species is like this as far as I have experienced. Do the "old" amazonicus represent a nostalgia or what? Curious what everyone thinks, and I'm not really complaining about it, just wondered.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Not sure who will get more upset here, those looking to sell amazonicus for 100$ or those looking to buy Iquitos for 50$.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Maybe it's because Amazonicus can be difficult to find, if you are looking for a particular line.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

the amazonicus that have no site data tend to be smaller and reder than the Iquitos. I keep and breed both....as for the price not sure why the differnece.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Clear as MUD


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

What lines are there of Amazonica? Isn't it just Todd Kelly and the older Understory line (not the current Iquitos) that people seem to have lost track of location data for?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

The one's that don't have data are rarer and seem to be a bit more difficult to breed. That's pretty much it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I've been trying to find a mate for my Todd Kelley line female Amazonicus for well over a year. As has eazyezcape. I guess he finally gave up and is now selling his female. Iquitos are all over the place. Is it a matter of supply and demand? 

Once someone tells me that we no longer have to keep the Todd Kelley line separate, I'll happily buy a 50 dollar Iquitos


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I would imagine supply and demand does play a huge roll because you are right, Iquitos are everywhere. Is there a visual difference between the two old lines of amazonicus? TheDude, When you say the ones that don't have data, are you referring to the old line that is not Todd Kelly's or both when compared to the new Iquitos? Geeeze I have a headache


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

frogface said:


> I've been trying to find a mate for my Todd Kelley line female Amazonicus for well over a year. As has eazyezcape. I guess he finally gave up and is now selling his female. Iquitos are all over the place. Is it a matter of supply and demand?
> 
> Once someone tells me that we no longer have to keep the Todd Kelley line separate, I'll happily buy a 50 dollar Iquitos


Supply and demand always plays a role. The old line amazonicus that have been around a while are more difficult to breed, so supply goes down. Because everyone wants what others don't have, demand goes up and so does pricing.

We will always have to keep them separate because we don't have data on the old ones but we do on the new one's. 



Erikb3113 said:


> I would imagine supply and demand does play a huge roll because you are right, Iquitos are everywhere. Is there a visual difference between the two old lines of amazonicus? TheDude, When you say the ones that don't have data, are you referring to the old line that is not Todd Kelly's or both, when compared to the new Iquitos? Geeeze I have a headache


The UE 'Red/orange Iquitos' have data and the old lines don't. Although I heard from someone that Todd does have data on one of the lines, and they are distinct from the Iquitos population. I don't remember which one it is, and until more data is available, it would be best to keep them all separate.

As another example, the 'Blackwater' amazonica look quite similar to the 'Iquitos' frogs, but go for around $85. That is because they are harder to breed (although I haven't seen that).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I was one of the first to have the pleasure of working with Todd Kelly's line of Amazonica years ago. Rick White received 10 of Todd Kelly's Amazonica direct from Todd. We were told they were the first he had released. I got 4 from that group of 10. 
If they are supposed to be harder to breed, I must have been doing something right. Mine bred like rabbits! I also found mine to be a good bit bolder the the Understory Iquitos I had a while back. Of course, you have to keep in mine that boldness is subjective from frog to frog and viv to viv.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

This is all so confusing. I dont know whether to refer to mine as Amazonica or Iquitos. Sean Stewart now refers to his as Iquitos but as I mentioned before they are Kelley and Understory... this would make me think that they are Amazonica. sooo.... yea im confused


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> This is all so confusing. I dont know whether to refer to mine as Amazonica or Iquitos. Sean Stewart now refers to his as Iquitos but as I mentioned before they are Kelly and Understory... this would make me think that they are Amazonica. sooo.... yea im confused


You mean they are a cross between Todd Kelly Amazonica and Understory Iquitos? Ideally, that shouldn't exist.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Well where did Todd Kelley get his? were they an Understory Import that he just had success with? or did he import them directly?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> Well where did Todd Kelly get his? were they an Understory Import that he just had success with? or did he import them directly?


Todd Kelly imported a group of wild Reticulata. Red Amazonica were living intermingled with the population of Reticulata and Todd's Amazonica were collected and imported by mistake.



skylsdale said:


> Basically, yes. The "Iquitos" (which are not to be mixed with the UE Iquitos frogs) are there own population...and tend to be more orange/yellowish in color. They were collected alongside striped reticulata (assumed to be the same species by the collectors), and were separated out upon importation, the whole group going to Todd. Here is an example of this population:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As the Understory Iquitos are from both a known local and date, they should never have been mixed/crossed with ANY of the older lines of Amazonica. 

This thread details it pretty nicely. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ranitomeya/69890-amazonicus-lines.html

As I understand it, this crossing of Todd Kelly Amazonica and Understory Iquitos should never have been created. (I know you didn't do it)


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I was a part of that thread and I'm still confused Doug  What I gathered confuses me more. It seems like Todd Kelly line Amazonicus should be getting called "iquitos" or "red vent"? Sean Stuart's are a cross of Kelly X Understory? Killin me! Might have to switch to PM's so I can quit lookin a fool to everybody.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Erikb3113 said:


> I was a part of that thread and I'm still confused Doug  What I gathered confuses me more. It seems like Todd Kelly line Amazonicus should be getting called "iquitos" or "red vent"? Sean Stuart's are a cross of Kelly X Understory? Killin me! Might have to switch to PM's so I can quit lookin a fool to everybody.


haha yea im gonna stick to behind the scenes digging for a bit until I get things clarified... dont need this getting blown up due to speculation.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

And which were the one's collected alongside the Reticulata? The eventual "Kelly Iquitos" or the "Kelly red vents"? "Kelly Iquitos" right? not be confused with Understory Iquitos..............disregard this post I just learned to read apparently.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

I have red frog  ......so simple....click click.....BOOM


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

^ Ok maybe a little over dramatic, I was in a bad place then.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sorry guys, I don't have all the answers to ironing this out. When we received our Todd Kelly Red Amazonica, that's what they were being called...Todd Kelly line Red Amazonica. I don't know what else he may have called them or what other lines he is working with. The one thing that is clear to me though, is that a known lineage and import date frog (Understory Enterprises Iquitos), should not be crossed with any of the older lines.
Ron (Skysdale) would be in a much better position to comment on the rest.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> I was one of the first to have the pleasure of working with Todd Kelly's line of Amazonica years ago. Rick White received 10 of Todd Kelly's Amazonica direct from Todd. We were told they were the first he had released. I got 4 from that group of 10.
> If they are supposed to be harder to breed, I must have been doing something right. Mine bred like rabbits! I also found mine to be a good bit bolder the the Understory Iquitos I had a while back. Of course, you have to keep in mine that boldness is subjective from frog to frog and viv to viv.


You would have also been getting F1's. By now, they may have been inbred a lot and so have complications with breeding. Who knows that, it's just speculation.



carola1155 said:


> This is all so confusing. I dont know whether to refer to mine as Amazonica or Iquitos. Sean Stewart now refers to his as Iquitos but as I mentioned before they are Kelley and Understory... this would make me think that they are Amazonica. sooo.... yea im confused


Sorry if I missed it but what do you buy yours as and from who? If they aren't UE Iquitos, then they should NOT be referred to as iquitos. I'm not sure why Sean would have mixed them, but that shouldn't have happened. 

As of right now, these are what would be referred to as Ranitomeya amazonica in the US hobby:

'Red/Orange Iquitos' - UE
'Blackwater' - UE
"Red amazonicus" - Kelley
"Red ventrimaculatas" - Kelley
"Orange amazonicus" - Not sure
"Golden amazonicus" - Not sure
French Guiana Yellow (both gray and blue leg) - A bunch of lines all can be mixed but below
French Guiana Cayenne - UE

Notice the one's with quotes. They are old names and may as well be left alone. And as I said before, one of the Kelley lines supposedly has site data.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

So no old UE amazonicus? I think that helps my brain a lot. Thank you


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

thedude said:


> You would have also been getting F1's. By now, they may have been inbred a lot and so have complications with breeding. Who knows that, it's just speculation.


That's true Adam. Mine were nice and fresh. I think sometimes, too, you just stumble across really good conditions for them. I understand Kaity was having pretty good production with her Todd Kelly Amazonica, but did have problems morphing at first. I think in the end she fixed that with a higher protein tad diet.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/60793-holy-over-production-batman.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/64488-tads-die-after-front-legs-pop.html


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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

Can everybody post pics of their "amazonicus type frogs"?


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here are some pics. Todd Kelley line:

oops wait, wrong frog 

Ok here are the right pics. 

My female








eazyezcape's female








The pics in the thumbnails are orange vents


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Here are some pics of mine. I bought them directly from Ron Skysdale (Todd Kelly frogs). These were sold as Kelly 'Iquitos' and I was told that they were the line that was brought in mixed with the striped retics.








I like this one because it shows the "chinstrap" that almost all of my frogs have. (different frog than the one above)








Please excuse the debrie on thes next two.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Here's some pics of Kelley line 'Amazonicus':


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

So apparently, Sean Stewart has been selling this mixed lineage cross of a Todd Kelly Amazonica and an Understory Enterprises Iquitos, for years now! I hate to think how many must be out there.


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## eazyezcape (Nov 29, 2010)

My Iquitos and Amazonicus look identical in size and coloration. My wife seems to believe the legs of our Amazonicus is a different shade of blue and larger spots, but I do not see it. -- Sorry hun.


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## eazyezcape (Nov 29, 2010)

Here are some shots of our Iquitos from Sean Stewart. 

Female Iquitos









Male Iquitos


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Any one know what line Kris Dietz worked with? I think he ran Dendroid darts.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Zach that frog has really wide red bands. Does not look like the colors are very well represented though (on my monitor anyway). The legs look really dark. Beautiful frog though..they all are


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## Yobosayo (Sep 27, 2009)

Here are a few of my Kelly line Amazonicus. Solo pic is a female.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Erikb3113 said:


> Zach that frog has really wide red bands. Does not look like the colors are very well represented though (on my monitor anyway). The legs look really dark. Beautiful frog though..they all are


 They're wide because she's about to pop. She laid 6 eggs a couple hours after I took this picture.


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Ok... two weeks later and I'm still confused. The Kelley frogs that started as amazonicus collected with the retics became "Iquitos", not be confused with the understory Iquitos. There are still frogs out there being called Kelley Amazonicus too though, were did they come from? Same as the " K Iquitos" just did not get the memo to change names? Sorry to keep dredging this up, just seems like this species is a mass of confusion.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Erikb3113 said:


> Ok... two weeks later and I'm still confused. The Kelley frogs that started as amazonicus collected with the retics became "Iquitos", not be confused with the understory Iquitos. There are still frogs out there being called Kelley Amazonicus too though, were did they come from? Same as the " K Iquitos" just did not get the memo to change names? Sorry to keep dredging this up, just seems like this species is a mass of confusion.


Yes, I would imagine not everyone knew to change the name. The other thing is, we don't know for sure they are from Iquitos, so some may not be changing it for that reason.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Todd Kelly has two lines of amazonicus. He has the Red Vents and the 'Iquitos'. The hash marks above the Iquitos are important, I don't remember why.  The 'Iquitos' are the ones that came in with the retics and are different from other UE Iquitos.

There is only one way to get the straight scoop and that is to pm, email or call Todd Kelly or Ron Skylsdale (Skylsdale). They are partners and they would be the ones to talk to to get your questions answered completely.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

from a recent brief conversation with Mark Pepper, the UE Iquitos were collected about 20km away from the location that the "iquitos" that came in with the retics were collected...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I think that might be news to them.

s


phender said:


> ... There is only one way to get the straight scoop and that is to pm, email or call Todd Kelly or Ron Skylsdale (Skylsdale). They are partners and they would be the ones to talk to to get your questions answered completely.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Oops! Apparently I was misinformed or maybe I just misunderstood (info not from Ron or Todd). Ron does however have both lines of Todd's amazonicus and can tell you a lot about them and their relationship to other lines.

My apologies to both parties.


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

I'll take "Amazonicus" for $50 please


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## Erikb3113 (Oct 1, 2008)

Sorry we are so far off the original topic, I led my own thread astray. The conversation kind of evolved away from the title making any sense. Not complaining because I like were it went.


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