# Good beginner thumbnail



## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

I am looking for info on hardy beginner thumbnail. I have kept auratus for the past year but I want a thumbnail species now also. Any info is greatly appreciated


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

i would recommend vents or imis, kept in a vertically oriented enclosure.
Others can elaborate more on this, i would also recommend doing a search, this question has been asked countless times before.


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## Guest (Feb 13, 2006)

D.ventrimaculatus is relatively easy to keep if you want some info you can send me a PM


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

this really doesn't count 100% (as its not a quint) but a tricolor is a good choice. However, they are best kept in something larger than a 10 vert.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Like said above, either Vents or Imitators.



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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I have made this post a sticky as it is a common question that comes up from time to time.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

D. ventrimaculatus and D. imitator tend to be the first thumbnails that froggers take on for a few reasons. Compared to many other thumbnails they are relatively easy to obtain, less expensive, do well in group settings and acclimate to new surroundings without much difficulty. Both species are relatively straightforward to breed either as pairs or in groups although the sex ratio need to be considered in group settings. Eggs or tadpoles can be left in the viv for the parents to raise (provided there are adequate water sources for such a purpose) or pulled and raised outside the viv. The tadpoles are highly cannibalistic and are normally raised individually. Some frog hobbyists have experienced success in keeping these tadpoles in groups provided that adequate plant cover and food were available.

These frogs are arboreal and will be found up in the foliage and on the sides of the viv at most times. Items to be considered in successful husbandry of either species are a well planted viv with plenty of hiding spots and sufficient space for frogs to establish territories. The relative boldness of either vents or imis is the subject of much discussion and appears to be related to personal experience. Both species will make themselves visible within the viv provided that they feel secure in their surroundings and are especially visible when breeding. 

D. imitator intermedius is closely related to D. imitator and is also a robust frog. However, they tend to be less available compared to vents or imis and more expensive.

Species that are not considered good beginner thumbnails include D. fantasticus, D. lamasi, D. quinquevittatus, D. castaneoticus and D. reticulatus for reasons of availability (compared to vents and imis), expense and in a few species/morphs, difficulty in acclimation to new surroundings. However, an experienced frogger should have no problems with these species. D. amazonicus are considered by many to be a form of vent as opposed to their own species but have a lower supply and higher price in the hobby.

Bill


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

This is an excellent sticky. I found myself in this exact situation a week ago... wanting a good beginner thumbnail.

For elmoisfive: Not once did you mentino D. pumilio. Is there a reason you excluded this frog from your response? Is it a good beginner, not a good beginner or is it mixed between the varieties of the species?


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## Jordan B (Oct 8, 2004)

Dendrobates Pumilio are not "true" thumbnails. A true thumbnail is a frog in the quinquevittatus group, like retics, fants, imitator, etc. Pumilio could be considered more difficult to breed than some of the frogs Bill mentioned, as they are obligate egg-feeders and raise their own young.

Jordan


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

D. pumilio are also not recommended as starter frogs due to their expense and the fact that most pumilio in the hobby are farm raised with the concomitant concern about parasite load. In the absence of treatment, these animals can run into real health issues and pose a threat to your other frogs. Proper treatment in quarantine is time consuming, stresses the frogs to a certain extent and increases the expense.

However, parasite free adult pumilio are pretty hardy frogs in captivity. 

Plus as Jordan mentions, pums are not considered thumbs in the strictest sense.

Bill


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

This is interesting. Being a "newb" to the thumbs, I had no real idea that Pums weren't considered thumbnails. If you go to a few people's sites (Saurian.net being one), they have Pumilio listed under the "thumbnail species" section. I figured thumbnail was just any smaller dart frog that was somewhat arboreal.

I guess I learn something everyday!


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## OneTwentySix (Nov 11, 2004)

Thumbnail typically seems to refer to two things. The currently accepted "correct" definition seems to be the quinquevittatus group frogs, whereas otherwise, people simply refer to anything that matures under a certain size as a thumbnail. Both definitions are used in the hobby, though I'm more inclined to believe that the quin group as thumbnail definition is more correct as it makes considerable sense from a scientific viewpoint to group a frog by relationship as opposed to appearance.


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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

Well, technically the "quinq group" includes D. galactonotus and D. castaneoticus, not any of the other "thumbnail" frogs, which are actually the D. vanzolinii species group. Quinqs are more closely related to tinctorius and truncatus than D. imitator. So, that would call into question the conventional wisdom that D. pumilio is not a thumbnail frog. We can't pretend that our groupings of different frogs are actually based on science when they are really based on similar husbandry (and in that, the so called thumbnail group is similar).

Alexander


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

AlexanderStubbs said:


> Well, technically the "quinq group" includes D. galactonotus and D. castaneoticus, not any of the other "thumbnail" frogs, which are actually the D. vanzolinii species group. Quinqs are more closely related to tinctorius and truncatus than D. imitator. So, that would call into question the conventional wisdom that D. pumilio is not a thumbnail frog. We can't pretend that our groupings of different frogs are actually based on science when they are really based on similar husbandry (and in that, the so called thumbnail group is similar).
> 
> Alexander


Oddly, this http://www.dendrobase.de/show.cgi?a=Den ... &c=ENG&d=0 web site puts D. vanzonlinii in the "quinq" group which includes D. imitator and a few others...


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Well, technically the "quinq group" includes D. galactonotus and D. castaneoticus, not any of the other "thumbnail" frogs, which are actually the D. vanzolinii species group. Quinqs are more closely related to tinctorius and truncatus than D. imitator.


Source?



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## AlexanderStubbs (Feb 18, 2004)

The fairly recent genetic analysis shows us these links. I believe that the site http://www.dendrobates.org explains it under the "evolution" section. Also, that is by no means the only error on dendrobase, there are a few pics that are mislabeled/under the wrong genus. They fixed quite a few issues in the 2nd version but it is clearly a work in progress.

Alexander


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## themann42 (Apr 12, 2005)

nice write-up bill. think you could elaborate though where you say "sex ratio need to be considered in group settings". what's a good sex ratio? i'm interested as vents for my first thumbnail so i'm curious as to how i would obtain a group with a good sex ratio.


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## twisner (Jul 7, 2005)

themann42, sex ratio is important for a variety of reasons including space, aggresion, and breeding, but vents are some of the most docile frogs.
The sex ratio doesnt really matter for them, and there is really no issue with crowding them in a tank, within reason. I believe taht if you have more females than males, however, the males will breed with more than one frog, making it more productive, but these guys lay so much anyway that it doesnt really matter.
I would suggest putting 3 in a 10 vert, 4 in a 18high, or something along those lines. You can put even more in a larger tank, and they are reletively affordable (40-50$)
You dont really need to pay for sexed frogs to get a ratio, just buy the number you want and as long as you have at least one female and at least one male, you will be fine.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2006)

Are intermedius harder to keep than vents or imitators?


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

No, in my opinion they are not.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2006)

Thanks becasue I have read in different places that they are harder.


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## Zerandise (Sep 14, 2007)

WOW great thread! I have been doing my research and this one was a nice find!


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## fishdoc (Apr 24, 2007)

I agree on the thread value. I'm confused, and was going to pose the question: what is a thumbnail, because I also thought pums were thumbnails, based on ignorance, not any good logic. Also, azureus are tincs? Is there a list somewhere that puts these into the right categories? I can't even tell mites from springtails... I need a spirit guide!!


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## RoadShenanigans (Jan 10, 2011)

What is the price range for 'vents'? 

I have about a 10/12 gal. enclosure being constructed now. Was thinking of 3 frogs, prefferably 2 males and 1 female, since I have read that females fight. 

My first experience with darts, so your advise is appreciated, and much needed before I get started.


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## Suzanne (Dec 28, 2008)

female agression is primarily a tinctorius thing. With vents, the females are very tolerant towards each other. Males also, but in a trio I would suggest 1.2


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Vents are like a Hippie commune...They all just gonna love each other! Seriously, Vents do great in groups. Any sex ratio is usually fine.
Doug


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## RoadShenanigans (Jan 10, 2011)

lol, hippies huh? I like it! Thanks!


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## Quaz (Nov 13, 2005)

I really like my trio of vents I got from joshsfrogs a few months ago. I do have to say that mine have been a bit shy though. I have them in a 12 12 18 zoo med naturalistic terrarium. It was awesome though, that not more then a month after getting my frogs one started calling and within two months I noticed a clutch of five fertile eggs. Didn't know they were adults!


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