# Difficult Decision, Opinions?



## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

i've posted about this frog previously on the kingsnake forums, but things have taken a turn for the worst.

first of all, this frog is part of a quartet of panama D. Auratus i got on sept 4th at the raleigh exotic show from under the canopy farms. the other 3 frogs besides this one are doing great, look really healthy and are growing pretty fast. but alas, this particular frog was a runt. he is very skinny and has problems correctly attacking prey (many attempts with his tongue, but most miss) he also has seizures which i at first attributed to calcium deficiency and started dusting his flies more aggresively with rec-cal. i didn't really think of SLS, but now that i look at it his front legs are extremely thin, so i'm not sure what exactly his problem has been. so skip to last night and i find him sitting in a strange position, it is feeding time so i always make sure i drop a large quantity of flies around him since he seems to have trouble. when i agitate the tank removing the lid he kinda just flops over, spreads out and goes dead. now i know this can be a defensive behavior so i remove him and closely examine with a flashlight, i see a heartbeat and muscle tremors so i assume he is having another seizure. i make sure i stand watch over him until it passes and he seems to come out of it. i replaced him in the tank and he hopped away under the mini violet. i woke up this morning to find him stretched out covered in fruit flies... he's dead i'm assuming and i remove him. however, when i flipped him over i could still see a heartbeat. i had to go to class so i put him in a small deli cup with some damp moss. i've come back from class 3 hours later and he's in the same exact stretched out position but his heart just keeps on beating and i see a twitch from his throat every now and then. my dilemma is, should i just finally euthanize him and chaulk it up to SLS or a deficiency or some other neurological trauma? or should i continue to let him sit in the deli cup heart beating, hoping he'll come out of it like he has before? (he's never been like this for more than maybe 20 mins before though.... i think i'm leaning towards putting him out of any pain he might be going through, but at the same time i've grown kinda attached to him... i think of him as the underdog and he's made it a ways so far against the odds


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

How's the little guy doing.....or is it too late?
Did you try the neo calgluconate bath?
I hope all is OK. Good Luck.
Mike


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

he's still got a heartbeat, but he's comatose. doesn't respond to any stimulus. i haven't tried the bath, but i honestly think it is probably something a lot more complicated than calcium deficiency (since i've been duesting his food aggressively with rep-cal calcium powder for the past 2 weeks). i think i just got a young frog with sls. i'm gonna talk to the people at under the canopy farms at the end of october at the SC show and see if they had any others recently that had sls. i've crushed some fruit flies up with vitamins and calcium today and used a small blunt probe to force feed him and he's still got a heartbeat and a full tummy. but i really think tommorrow i'm going to euthanize him if he isn't at least responding to stimulus. i've been keeping a much closer eye on the other three now as well. they are all real fat and happy and besides me frightening one to make sure he was ok (went into the dead mode) look great. after i euthanize the runt i'm gonna whip out my disections kit and look for parasites in his intestinal tract as well just to see if he had a large parasite load.


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

Well, we can use this as a learning tool. Please keep us informed on what you find out.
Mike


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

this is a picture of him the day after i got him... obviously the size difference was already evident. i also noticed he was a different color morph than the other 3. even when he was "healthy" he really didn't look it


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

He looks just my 4. Same size and all. Obviously a different morph. Who'd you get them from? Check out my web site (I just set it up but there a couple of pics on it).
Mike


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

any pics of just him?


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

unfortunately no, they came out all fuzzy. yours do look about the same size, but a lot healthier. yours have much thicker fore arms than he had.


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## Dunner97074 (Sep 19, 2004)

poor guy keep us posted.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

i decided it wasn't fair to him to keep him in that state force feeding him when he was obviously brain dead/comatose. his heart kept beating right up until i euthanized him. i performed a cursory autopsy. organs looked ok, had a small load of intestinal worms. obviously need to pick up some dewormer for the other 3 just in case


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

That's too bad. I'm hoping I never have to do that with any of my frogs. I had to put down a newly hatched gecko once. Its belly never sealed completely. I felt terrible.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

*different color morph*



NCSUdart said:


> this is a picture of him the day after i got him... obviously the size difference was already evident. i also noticed he was a different color morph than the other 3. even when he was "healthy" he really didn't look it





Dunner97074 said:


> He looks just my 4. Same size and all. Obviously a different morph. Who'd you get them from? Check out my web site (I just set it up but there a couple of pics on it).
> Mike


I think making the assumption that 1 or the 4 frogs is a different color morph, is jumping the gun. As you stated, these are D. Auratus, panamanian morph. Anyone who has bred these guys can attest to the wide variation of colors these guys will throw off. 

We get frogs that are turquoise to lime green from our breeding group. The company you purchased these from is reputable and I am sure they would identify the difference in any auratus morphs they sell. 

Also, you didn't mention anything about how you were housing your frogs. The image you have posted was taken on the first day you got your frogs concerns me. Did you keep them in a set up such as this? Not providing proper drainage can contribute to bacterial blooms in tanks which can harm your frogs. 

Good luck with your other 3.

Melis


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

no, the setup has changed. i had not finished setting up their permanent vivarium. their current setup has a drainage layer of gravel with a layer of sphagnum moss over that for half the tank, the other side of the tank is live moss with mini african violets. a coconut hut is kept on the side with the sphagnum moss, although most of the time the grogs stay under and around the base of the violets. i know under the canopy is reputable, they were very nice and informative at the show and i do plan on purchasing more from them.


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## amphibianfreak (Jul 21, 2004)

how do you euthanize a frog?


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Most people stick them in the freezer.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2004)

I may be old school in this department, but I think the only way to do it is Phenobarbital or an equivalent. When I purchase an animal Iagree to ensure it health, since I am intervening nature. Therefore, when things get past me, I think its only fair to end the creatures life with as little pain as possible. I'm not convinced that freezers are painless, and a $15 visit to the vet is no imposition.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

i euthanized him the same way i euthanize mice for freezing to feed to snakes. i placed him in a small container and pumped it full of CO2. the animals pass out and then die. i believe it is the least painful way of euthanizing an animal w/o going to the vet. it takes about a minute or so with this method. we also use this method in many of my biology labs, to euthanize chickens, etc.


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## Guest (Oct 5, 2004)

I the past I have euthanized frog with "Anbesol Oral Gel" 
The active ingredients is Benzocaine, and it is used to numb your skin.
After putting 1-2 drops on the frogs back, and they stop moving I place them in the freezer over night just to make sure. I haven't tried the Co2 method before. NCSUdart, how do you have your "gas chamber" set up?

As far as your frog I have a few questions. Could it bend its arms at the elbows and could it support its front end off the ground? Pedialyte baths are also one of the first things I give a skinny frog. It gives them a little more energy.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

*acceptable methods of euthanasia*

These are currently the acceptable methods of euthanizing an amphibian. 

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml (icludes references for those who want to look them up). 

As an additional point there was a recent paper that indicated that dissolving the oragel in water and then placing the amphibian in the water until anesthetized and then completing the euthanasia procedure may be even more effective. 

Ed 
Ed Kowalski
South Jersey


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## snmreptiles (Feb 26, 2004)

Someone directed me to that same site. I also used the oragel method, and can I just say THAT SUCKED!!! :evil: I hated that! I have used the freezer method for many ill geckos and I thought that was hard. I do like your idea of anesthetizing them first in water and oragel. Thanks for the mention.

-Shelley


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Note: The oragel is not been approved as a humane method by the National Research Council on Pain and Distress in Laboratory Animals as it has not to my knowledge been reviewed and approved but it has been shown to be effectitive in anesthetizing and euthanizing amphibians involved in field studies (including large numbers of amphibians). 
I am not sure why you had a problem with it but whenever one works with a live biological organism there is always the possibility for unseen variables. 

Ed


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

*Re: acceptable methods of euthanasia*



Ed said:


> These are currently the acceptable methods of euthanizing an amphibian.
> 
> http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml (icludes references for those who want to look them up).
> 
> ...


Ed, I have easy access to lidocaine (1%) and marcaine (0.25%) liquid, used for local anesthetic injection. Can either be used in place of Benzocaine?

Shawn


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Shawn,

All I can say is that I don't know. I don't have any references for their use in amphibians. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

An additional note benzocaine is now accepted as a humane methods by National Research Council on Pain and Distress in Laboratory Animals 
Ed


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

I've found dilute lidocaine to be irritating to amphibians, at least based on their reaction. 
The dilute ethanol, followed by stronger ethonol method appears to be an acceptable way of euthanizing. I've used it several times, and it looks quick, and relatively painless. I would choose it over freezing in a freezer. 
John


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## dopederson (Mar 26, 2006)

*Anesthetic*

If you were looking for a list of drugs that act through the same mechanism as benzocaine here you go. All of these have similar chemical structures (esters) and differ from the chemical structures of drugs like lidocaine (amides), which one person mentioned to be an irritant. In general I would say, put yourself in the place of the being your are going to be euthanizing; I would much rather become intoxicated (ethanol bath) and just stop breathing (which is how the ethanol induced its euthanizing effects). Freezing might be easy on you, the one watching, but it is not an acceptable means to induce euthanasia.


procaine (Novocain®) 
cocaine (probably shouldn't have this on hand)
chloroprocaine (Nesacaine®) 
tetracaine
benzocaine (Cetacaine®)


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

Lidocaine's irritation (to frogs and other animals) is mostly due to it's pH. I imagine if you dilute it correctly, or even raise the pH slightly using another fluid, is can become less irritating. 
J


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