# Newbie needs advice - 1 frog died, 1 with reduced appetite



## Guest (Jun 6, 2006)

Hello everyone,

I've been reading your posts for months now and, with your help, I thought I was doing a good job taking care of my frogs. I purchased
my first dart frogs about 6 months ago (_D. azureus_). The frogs were about 8 months old at the time and I think that they were male and female. They were eating very well, until recently. About a week ago I noticed the the 'female' was getting VERY fat and the male (who has always been smaller) was a bit less active and not eating. Two days ago I
also noticed that the male's front toes were crossed when he was in a sitting position (not normal). I removed the male from the tank and relocated him to another room (I thought he might be stressed out due to the female or because of the noise levels in the room...dogs, parrot, humans - I moved him to a quiet location in the house). Yesterday I found him dead in the tank, but he wasn't skinny (he didn't waste away) - all of this happened very, very quickly. He was never listless - just less active (if that makes sense). The 'female' (I really don't know if it is a male or female) is still very fat, but she is not as active and her appetite has decreased significantly in the past couple of days. At this point, I cannot find any fecal matter in the terrerium to have tested. What do you suggest as the next course of action? Is there medication that I can try (where would I buy this)?? I don't want to lose my other frog - I am VERY fond of these animals. I've contacted Dr. Frye to see what he suggests, but I thought I would throw this out to as many experts as possible. 

I should also mention that the terrerium is at the recommended temp/humidity, they have running water with a gravel/dendrobark bedding. I've been feeding fruit flies and dusting with dendrocare. The water I'm using is bottled spring water, but the pH is a bit low at ~6.5 (I'm not sure how to bring that up). I took some pictures of the fat (bloated??) 'female' this morning, but I can't figure out how to post them to the site. 

Thank you for reading this, and for any suggestions you may have - 

Catherine


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2006)

I've been trying to post some pictures so that you can see the frog that I still have left. She/he is not eating (please see prior post). Do you think that he/she is bloated, or just fat??

I hope that you are able to access these pictures...

Thanks.

http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... frog_5.jpg

http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... frog_1.jpg

http://www.dendroboard.com/coppermine/a ... frog_2.jpg


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

I would say bloated or EXTREMELY gravid. I don't see the normal fat deposits that would accompany a frog of that size if it were due to being overweight. The swelling looks to be entirely around the abdomen.


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2006)

Hmmmm...I hope it isn't bloat (prognosis doesn't sound good, based on what I've read so far). I noticed that some people noticed water retention in their frogs with bloat, whereas I don't (but I honestly don't yet know what I'm looking for).

So, you think that this frog is definitely female? If she is extremely gravid, could the stress be from retaining all of those eggs (what do females with eggs do if there is no male around?). I have a female parrot and a female lizard and I always worry about them when they are gravid. I'm hoping that dart frogs just resorb them(??).

I've ordered some panacur and some metronidizole - hopefully I'll be able to get this little gal to eat again soon.

Boy, the frogs were so much more enjoyable when they were doing well. I didn't realize how quickly problems arise. I'm so sad that I lost Wally, the male. I hope that I can figure out how to help them. 

Thanks for your input, Dane-

Catherine


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

I'm comfortable saying that's a female. 

I notice my female Dwarf Cobalt looking like this after she has been fed well _and_ is carrying eggs. She goes from being a plumb frog, to a very round frog after she gorges herself. If your male had not died recently, I woudln't be concerned but that's not the case and it's very good you're taking action. 

When you say she's not eating, is that a visual observation? I ask because I judge my frog's eating habbits by body size, not action. I think this is because I rarely see my Auratus eat so I learned to watch his body to clue me into how he's doing.


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2006)

Thank you for your insights, Mike.

I picked out this particular frog because she was a total pig and I wanted my first frog to be easy. She's been a total pig since I got her. She waits under the area on the lid where I normally feed every morning and then gobbles as many flies as she can, as fast as she can (I started sprinkling them around better so that she'd have to do a little bit of work). Two days ago she just stopped eating and hasn't eaten a fly since. The day before that, she ate a couple of flies, but wasn't very interested. I hope that the medication that I bought gets here soon!

If I manage to get her out of this danger zone and get her eating again, will I have continued health problems with her since she appears to be gravid but doesn't have a male? Or, will she lay her eggs anyway (in the absence of a mating partner), or resorb them or something?

Thanks,

Catherine


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

I am concerned that you said you use bottled spring water. Make sure it does not have added minerals or salts. A lot of the drinking water will have that. I buy distilled water. The only time I have used water that was not distilled water from the store was last week when I tried twice going to the store and they were completely out of water both times. I was afraid to buy any other kind so I got some water out of my container that I have sitting outside to mist the tank with because it was looking pretty dry. The water in question was originally tap water, but it had been sitting out for a while, and it had rained as well so it had rain water in it. Check your water label very closely and see if it has anything added to it. It should say purified by reverse osmosis or by steam distillation, and should absolutely not have any added salt, etc.


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## Guest (Jun 10, 2006)

Thank you for the advice on water. I avoided using distilled water initially because it is lacking everything (no +ions, etc) and I thought that it would cause problems. The spring water that I use does not have added sodium, but if they add anything else to it, they don't mention it. I left the spring water in the tank (in the water feature) and switched from misting with spring water to distilled water.

My frog is still not eating and she is starting to lose weight. Medications arrived yesterday and I started dosing her with metronidazole HCl (2-3 drops on the back every day). I also provided her with flies dusted with panacur. So far, she hasn't eaten one. She's only received treatment for two days so far, but I was really hoping that she'd start eating after the first dose. How long does it take this metronidazole to take effect. I'm running out of ideas and getting more and more stress with each meal-free day.


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## back2eight (Dec 19, 2005)

I am so sorry to hear about your frog! I have never treated one, still being fairly new to this myself. I have lost one frog. It never grew, and even after seperating it it still died. I thought maybe the others were beating it up when I wasn't looking. This frog never stopped eating. It just didn't grow, and I wonder if the shock of putting him in a quarantine cage might have killed him. I will never know. I'm sure there is not anybody who has been in the hobby for a time that has not lost one. Although I hope you can save yours. You seem to be doing everything right.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

There is a thread somewhere around here about force feeding you may want to review and perhaps PM some of the authors or ask your vet about this option.


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## josh raysin (Nov 28, 2005)

she may have short tounge syndrome. its cause by a lack of calcium among other things. calcuim must be given with D3 for proper uptake.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

short tongue isn't caused by lack of calcium or D3. If the frog is having feeding issues due to lack of calcium then it has a form of MBD not STS. 

STS is caused by hypovitaminosis A. 

Ed


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2006)

Hmmm...I think that you guys might be onto something. I managed to get in touch with the breeder today. My vivarium is designed the same way as his and I'm doing everything the same (as far as we can tell), except...I was dusting the ff daily with Dendrocare. I've researched STS, and I realize that the male (the one who died) was very clumsy at catching flies before he quit eating altogether. I didn't think anything of it at the time (I just noted that he was kind of a dork) because I didn't know what I was looking at. Can too much Vit. A cause STS? I didn't notice my female having problems catching flies prior to quitting eating, but I was still pretty focused on the male at that time.

Dendrocare has 450.0 IE vit. A per Kg. It says to use it with every feeding. I suspect that the daily dose was too much. Does anyone have suggestions on what I can do with a frog who has been oversupplemented...possibly a frog with STS? I'll keep digging around on the website to see what I can learn about this, and I'll increase the humidity in her tank. I may try force feeding soon. 

As an aside, I noticed that when my male died, his tongue was sticking out. Is this normal on a dead frog? He is still in the freezer - is there any change in tongue morphology with STS that I can look for on him? 

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. 

Catherine


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Oversupplementation of vitamin A does not cause STS only an undersupplementation of vitamin A causes STS. 

Please review the following thead on vitamin A http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... n&start=15

It is not that uncommon for the tongue to be protruding particuarly if the frog had some form condition that caused the frog to retain fluids or it had been dead long enough to start to bloat (which can occur fairly quickly in amphibians) to name a couple of possible causes. 


Ed


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2006)

Thanks, Ed. I can't imagine how this gal could have a Vit. A deficiency, so maybe I should think past STS. 

I was considering trying some different supplements - the breeder uses Rep-Cal with D3 exclusively - the frogs were never given anything else prior to my tinkering with their diet. I purchased some Rep-cal recently but I never got a chance to use it. If I can keep this gal alive, I will try using different combinations of supplements. I've noticed that some people have had a problem with expired supplements, but I don't think that's a problem here (it is good until 2007...at least that's what it says). I don't know why I'm worried about supplements at this point, I can't get the frog to eat. She's moving around the tank - quite active, but shows no interest in food. 

I'm hopefully going to a reptile show next weekend (June 17th, near Portland, OR), and I hope to see what other people are doing. Is anyone on this board going to be there? 

Take care,
Catherine


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

snip "the breeder uses Rep-Cal with D3 exclusively - the frogs were never given anything else prior to my tinkering with their diet. I purchased some Rep-cal recently but I never got a chance to use it. If I can keep this gal alive, I will try using different combinations of supplements. I've noticed that some people have had a problem with expired supplements,"

If the breeder uses only Rep-Cal with D3 and no other supplements then the supplements may be insufficient with respect to vitamin A. 

Ed


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2006)

Would an inefficiency present itself 4 months after I purchased the frogs? They were really acting very healthy when I bought them and up to the time they stopped eating- it wasn't until after I had them for 4 months that they stopped eating and died (the female died on Wednesday). That's why I figured it was something that I did (too much vit. A, or...something). I'm very sad and disappointed. I've bleached out the terrarium and I'm going to wait a few months for the next reptile/amphibian show (locally) before I purchase more frogs. I want to learn a few more tricks of the trade before I do this again. I definitely won't be dusting with every feeding.

Thank you to everyone who shared thoughts and advice.

Catherine


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In other genera it typically takes from 6 months to a year before showing up (unless correctly supplied with the supplements) but it has been seen in anurans as soon as 2-3 months and longer than the year. 
Just keep in mind that without a necropsy confirming the cause of death, all of this is total speculation. 

Ed


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