# My First Dart Frog Den



## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Hello everyone, I just wanted to introduce myself as I've decided to start my first vivarium with the goal of keeping 1-2 dart frogs sometime in the future and I figured this website would be a great place to start and get quality advice. I started a reef aquarium last year and it has be going very successfully but I didn't want a new tank that would require serious water changes. I've always enjoyed exotic animals/environments so I thought a vivarium with some frogs would be a great choice. I'm looking for any advice/suggestions/feedback on my current plans and what I can do to ensure success in the future.

*Equipment/Supplies:*
I decided to go with a 20H tank as I didn't want to start in over my head with a huge tank (also trying to keep costs/maintenance low). I purchased enough materials from NEHERP to create a 2-3" water table along with a 2-3" substrate layer (everything is arriving July 1st). I also ordered a cork bark backboard and bought some cork bark pieces for depth/texture. I plan on securing most stuff with aquarium silicone and using GreatStuff foam to create height/ledges for the substrate layer. Not going to do a water feature like I originally planned as I read they serve no purpose in dart frog vivariums, but I do want to create some sort of small pool with a stone water dish. Part of the cooling/ventilation system will be an 80mm fan with temperature based fan controller for ON/OFF and fan speed setting. For lighting I went with 2x24W SunBlaster T5HO w/ reflectors and 6400K spectrum bulbs (very pleased with the quality of these). 

I will be installing a DIY misting system once I decide on what type of nozzles I want to use. Any suggestions here are greatly appreciated but my only requirement is they need to be connectable to 1/4" tubing. So far I was thinking of using 1/4" Delavan Whirl Rain nozzles (225 micron droplet size at 40psi). I will be connecting these nozzles to my 5-Stage RO/DI water filter which I will only be using up to the RO filtration stage (possibly only sediment/carbon block stages for more head pressure).


*Future Stocking List:*
I plan on getting some springtails and pill bugs to seed the substrate but I'm not really sure what type of pill bugs would be best for my tank (I was thinking dwarf white/purple). I definitely want to get some bromeliads (for future frogs) but apart from these I have no idea what other plants would be good for a beginner or for dart frogs (definitely need help in this area). If anyone knows of a good source for purchasing plants online or a quality nursery in the Orlando, FL area I would greatly appreciate the recommendation. 

Here are some pictures of what I have so far...it's not much but I will add more as the build progresses over the following weeks.


















Thanks for taking a look and again please feel free to post any constructive advice/suggestions.


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## VPardoel (Apr 2, 2010)

Can't wait to see more of the tank.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

So everything arrived today and I've got the background started. I'm trying to leave as much open space as I can while trying to bring depth to this cork tile background. I added a siphon which I plan on using with a ball valve so I can simulate rain with my misting system without flooding my tank. It is 2.25" above the bottom of the tank which should allow for an adequate water table under the substrate layer. The fan will be controlled with a temperature probe to maintain temps between 72F and 76F. Essentially it will come on when temps reach 76 and stay on till they hit 72. 

Pictures of progress, Day 1:


















More to follow...


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Drainage layer and side panel installed.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

I'm very pleased with the look so far for my first attempt at this. I need to find a piece of ghostwood that will fit the tank well and tomorrow I plan on getting a couple plants and some little critters for the substrate. Still not sure what exactly I should get other than a bromeliad though 

End of Day 2:









More to follow...


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## srexob (Sep 1, 2013)

Off to a great start for your 1st tank. Get a couple of broms(hopefully attach a few to the driftwood you get) along with some ferns and a vine or two. Adding plants from smallest to largest, from front to back will also help you achieve some depth to your viv.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Plants!!! The orchid is a little tall for my tank but it will work for now. Now just time to wait for everything to grow in. I need to get a vine and some moss but wasn't able to find any that I liked at the nursery.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Orchids and Broms should not be put in the ground, because they are epiphytes. I hope your viv has good drainage, because even the ferns are at risk of 'rot'. Apart from the temps, I would go fans a bit every now to move air in the tank.
Of course, these are tips not criticisms.


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## ollie (Oct 26, 2014)

scroll down to the 20th post to visually see one way of mounting broms

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/79872-bad-plant-order-good-deal.html


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

ollie said:


> scroll down to the 20th post to visually see one way of mounting broms
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/79872-bad-plant-order-good-deal.html


Thanks that's a really good idea. That will probably allow me to get one or two on the back wall.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

rigel10 said:


> Orchids and Broms should not be put in the ground, because they are epiphytes. I hope your viv has good drainage, because even the ferns are at risk of 'rot'. Apart from the temps, I would go fans a bit every now to move air in the tank.
> Of course, these are tips not criticisms.


The orchid is pretty much in a bed of spaghnum (I read this is a good way to plant them in a basket) so I hope thats ok. I'll try to mount the broms I just planted them since thats how they were all kept at the nursery. I have some extra cork bark I'll set them on so they can root to it. I think I have adequate drainage. I try to make sure the soil stays moist but not swampy. And the drainage water level is about an inch below the soil line. Trying to do things right and thanks for the advice.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Okay so I rearranged my tank so that the epiphytes are now able to root themselves to a piece of wood. The orchid is actually sitting on a piece of cork even though it still looks planted in the substrate I just covered the roots to help keep them moist. I like the new layout better as well. I will add the water dish back in a couple months when I get the frogs.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Just a small update on progress, seeded the tank with dwarf purple isopods and springtails from a local store that grows various worm/bug cultures for exotic pets. I also moved the heart fern towards the back as I didn't want it to be cramped against the glass. My temperatures have been staying between 73 at night and 75-77 during the day (ambient temperature). The misting system I ordered should be here by the end of the week so I will be getting that installed and figure out a good timing schedule for the plants and future frogs. Hopefully this will allow me to get the temperatures a little cooler at night as I'm trying to hit the 68-70 range. I'm planning to go find some vines/moss for the back wall either today or tomorrow as well so I can get the back well greened up. I have also decided that I will be putting "Super Blue" D. auratus in the tank in about 4-6 weeks once the bromeliads have rooted themselves to the cork nice and strong. Hopefully I can get two males as I don't want to have to worry about any breeding frogs (keeping them healthy is enough for me).

Current FTS


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

It looks good: simple and natural. I really like how you've arranged the plants. I would add a bit of leaf litter. Excellent choice of frogs, IMO.


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

Is the fan pulling air from outside into your terrarium? If so, be careful how long you let it run, and make sure that you mist, because pumping outside air into the tank can really drop the humidity (especially if you run AC/heat in your house). 

A lot people who use fans put them in the tank (screened off from the fauna) to circulate air. Circulating air is is better for the plants, clear glass, and may let the frogs tolerate higher temps, since they can more easily regulate body temperature through evaporative cooling. When used in this manner, the fan should not have a drastic cooling effect, though.

Nice setup!


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

ivas said:


> Is the fan pulling air from outside into your terrarium? If so, be careful how long you let it run, and make sure that you mist, because pumping outside air into the tank can really drop the humidity (especially if you run AC/heat in your house).
> 
> A lot people who use fans put them in the tank (screened off from the fauna) to circulate air. Circulating air is is better for the plants, clear glass, and may let the frogs tolerate higher temps, since they can more easily regulate body temperature through evaporative cooling. When used in this manner, the fan should not have a drastic cooling effect, though.
> 
> Nice setup!


Thanks for the kind words rigel and ivas. I need to get a hygrometer to see how this fan is affecting the humidity but I wanted to get my misting system installed first so I can have all the variables in place to figure out how to keep humidity at 70% or higher. The fan is set so when the tank hits 78 it stays on till it reaches 74 which usually takes about 5-10min and only comes on every few hours. I'm really trying to figure out a way to cool the tank at night since my temps will not drop below 73. I think I may try using a low voltage Peltier thermoelectric cooling unit hooked up to my USB thermostat to cool the tank using the glass. If I do decide to use a Peltier I'll post picture of how I did it so other people can cool their tanks into the 60s without cooling the whole room/house.


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

How hot does your house get? You can use the fans to draw heat off the lights, which will keep the terrarium cooler. As long as your house doesn't get too warm, the frogs should be cool enough. I keep all of my terrariums totally sealed (others use screen vents) and just keep the lights elevated off the tanks with my air conditioning ~71 degrees. I am pretty sure this is what most of the hobbiests on this here forum do. In my tank with Auratus, temperatures peak at around 80 degrees near the top of the viv, and 76 (or a little higher) where I can measure it near the floor. And my frogs have been doing excellent in this habitat for 5 years.

If the fan is cooling the tank off that quickly, it means it's drawing in a lot of outside air. Outside air = low humidity. Furthermore, swings in temperature and humidity like that may be stressful to the frogs. The hygrometers that are sold for pet keepers are pretty unreliable. Also, remember that temperature in the tank fluctuates (heat rises), and cool spots may be found.

You have a very nice looking setup and you have picked a very nice looking and hardy species of frog--try not to overthink the small details.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

Thanks I'm just worried about overheating the future frogs. Well if I don't use the fan the temp never rises above 79 and that's with my house at 78. The lights are sitting about one inch off the glass but they produce so little heat (main reason I chose this brand) it takes about 3-4 hours to fully heat the tank to 79-80. I may set it to just run on it's lowest speed while misting to bring in fresh air and leave it off otherwise. I can just make my house a little cooler at nights to get the tank a little cooler.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I do not know where you live, I do not know how is your climate, but vivs must have a temperature 'controllable', which means that the heat produced by lights and other stuff nothing should interfere - as much as possible - with the ambient temperature. Otherwise you might find in serious difficulties, as regards the vivs, even if the environmental temps are acceptable.
I do not know if I explained well.
For be clear, now, at 12:30 am, here where I live (Southern Italy), temps are 36.7° C (98° F) otuside and 28.8° C (84° F) inside. As you see it is very hot, it is hot (extraordinary hot) even in my home, which is usually cooler. Vivs temps are now in the 80° F thanks to LED (cheap LED) and fans.
Before, with t5 and PL lights, vivs reached and exceeded 80° F even with lower ambient temp, forcing me to turn off the lights.
Very important is also passive ventilation, as well as to have the viv in a cool place, little tricks that can help you when summer heat is normal.
In my case, the summer heat of these days is not normal, especially for the high humidity.
I have no AC here because I live at 2000 feet elevation, and even in summer the climate is pleasant - but this can not be for vivs! 
I hope that temps do not go up more, otherwise I will be in trouble.
That's why I say that lamps (and others) must produce heat 'acceptable'. I hope I well explained myself - and sorry for this long post.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

rigel10 said:


> I do not know where you live, I do not know how is your climate, but vivs must have a temperature 'controllable', which means that the heat produced by lights and other stuff nothing should interfere - as much as possible - with the ambient temperature. Otherwise you might find in serious difficulties, as regards the vivs, even if the environmental temps are acceptable.
> I do not know if I explained well.
> For be clear, now, at 12:30 am, here where I live (Southern Italy), temps are 36.7° C (98° F) otuside and 28.8° C (84° F) inside. As you see it is very hot, it is hot (extraordinary hot) even in my home, which is usually cooler. Vivs temps are now in the 80° F thanks to LED (cheap LED) and fans.
> Before, with t5 and PL lights, vivs reached and exceeded 80° F even with lower ambient temp, forcing me to turn off the lights.
> ...


I appreciate the info, it's good knowledge for me to have since I'm still new to this vivarium thing. I'm from Orlando, FL where it is always hot and humid so the A/C runs quite often. So today I didn't run the fan to see if just passive ventilation would be enough and the temperature peaked at 79F (started at 73F) after about 5 hours and stayed at that level until lights out. Very happy with that result so I know now that my lights will never overheat the tank (in theory). Now I need to see if I can get the night time temp to hit 70 with my house thermostat turned down a few more degrees at night. I also just got my misting system installed (only one nozzle for now) so I need to figure out a good schedule for my tank now that won't drown out my plants. I plan to start with the following:

7:00AM - 40 seconds
10:00 AM - 15 seconds
12:00 PM -15 seconds
4:30 PM - 1 minute 30 seconds
8:30 PM - 40 seconds
1:30 AM - 15 seconds

My goal is to keep humidity around 80% so I will adjust the misting as needed.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

_*My goal is to keep humidity around 80% so I will adjust the misting as needed.[/QUOTE]
*_
It is the best thing. I misted often at first, in my freshy made vivs, then over time - and after many plants rotted and superwet vivs - I mist now ten seconds per day, in normal weather conditions.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

My first new leaf!









I also added a bunch of leaf litter and have a decent amount of mold now. I'm just waiting for these springtails to reproduce, eat it all up and hopefully the tank will be ready for frogs by then. Going to go get a glass top today since I'm not getting the humidity levels I want with the lid that came with the tank.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

I understand mold is pretty normal since my tank is new but is there a point when it becomes too much? I would say about 50% or more of my substrate has a white fuzzy mold growing on top of it and it continues to spread. It's not affecting any of the health of the plants so I haven't been concerned but its growth seems to be getting a little out of control now. Should I just expect the springtail culture I added to catch up to it or should I think about removing some manually?


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

I added a few things to the tank to give more variety and so the future frogs will have some more climbing spots. Instead of the azureus I was originally planning to buy, I've decided to get 2-3 renitomeya varadero. I've read they are more arborial than terrestrial and I want to have frogs that will spend a lot of time in my bromeliads. I'm hoping that these frogs will be visible more often because of this and I would also like to see them use my bromeliads for breeding. The mold is no longer spreading and seems to be getting under control. The springtails are also multiplying quickly so hopefully by the beginning of August I can place an order for some frogs once the new plants root themselves securely.

New FTS:


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Good choice! They are stunning and bold frogs! Varadero like a background of climbing plants and leaf litter, so I suggest you provide it.


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## CronicdenDro (Jun 27, 2015)

rigel10 said:


> Good choice! They are stunning and bold frogs! Varadero like a background of climbing plants and leaf litter, so I suggest you provide it.


I put three clippings of purple wandering jew around so I'll try to train those to climb up the walls . I'm going to add some more fresh oak leaves once I place an order for the frogs and I've also got a seed pod I may throw in there somewhere as a small shelter area.


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