# tadpoles for sale



## Dave II

Hello, so I have been seeing this more & more. I can't say how I really feel about it. It depends on who is buying them for me personally. Just was wondering what other members thought of selling tads. 
Thanks in advance.


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## frogparty

There's a LOT of threads on this already. I'd suggest doing a quick search. I personally say, if they're cheap, it's worth a gamble


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## Dave II

> There's a LOT of threads on this already. I'd suggest doing a quick search.


I realize there are other threads on this I'm saying does it seem to be becoming/is more common/acceptable.


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## frogparty

I don't think so. Always been fairly common. I think if anything it's safer these days because so many froggers do such a good job of caring for their breeders.


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## Scott

Yes, there are a lot of threads on this.

To me, someone who is selling tadpoles is someone who cannot raise them to froglets.

Try to get some $ out of it while you can (by selling the tads).

s


Dave II said:


> Hello, so I have been seeing this more & more. I can't say how I really feel about it. It depends on who is buying them for me personally. Just was wondering what other members thought of selling tads.
> Thanks in advance.


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## pdfCrazy

Scott said:


> Yes, there are a lot of threads on this.
> 
> To me, someone who is selling tadpoles is someone who cannot raise them to froglets.
> 
> Try to get some $ out of it while you can (by selling the tads).
> 
> s


I couldn't disagree more. I have a 2.3 group of green sirensis that put out so many tads and eggs, at times I have more tadpoles than space. A good alternative to taking their film cans away is to sell the tads after they are a couple weeks old. This allows other froggers an economical way to obtain a species they maybe cant afford, or allows them to get a bigger group than if purchasing froglets. Myself....I have purchased tads from 3 different sources in the last year. And for the most part, all have grown into healthy froglets. I have someone (I will not name them, don't ask) who right now is dealing with a new addition to the family, and does not have the time to care for tads and froglets. So, I am purchasing the majority of all his tads on a regular basis. This has allowed me to add multiple species to my collection at a rapid rate, for much less than buying froglets. I've found that if care is taken when shipping, tads arrive just fine. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the practice of selling tads. Honestly must be the rule and practice. If your having problems getting tads to morph, or spindly leg showing up, you either should NOT sell (preferable) or, this should be disclosed to the receiving party so they can make an informed decision. I realize this is not what always happens, I'm just saying it is what SHOULD happen.


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## frogface

I haven't sold any tadpoles but I've given lots away. Sadly, some that I shipped recently didn't make it. Still working that part out. But, for now, if you're local and I have extras, stop on by 

Personally, I have no problem paying for tads. With that comes the knowledge that it's up to me to get them to froglet stage and there are no guarantees.


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## RobR

The better part of my collection has been raised from tads. I wouldn't hesitate to buy or sell. I've had tads shipped all the way from Hawaii.


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## whitethumb

i purchased tads that were shipped to me. not because the seller was looking to get rid of them or didnt have the space. i asked around and found someone willing to sale me some tads. all arrived alive and all morphed into froglets. id do it again in a heartbeat but i think shipping them is different than shipping froglets. if your seller knows what he's doing, i dont see a problem.


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## oneshot

frogface said:


> Sadly, some that I shipped recently didn't make it. Still working that part out.


If you want to practice shipping tads, you can ship a bunch to me...


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## chuckpowell

Something else you all should consider. Selling eggs is much easier and much less costly to ship (and usually to buy) than tadpoles or frogs and the results are the same for the buyer after some months. Details need to be worked out between the selling and buyer probably more than usual, but I've done it a number of times without a problem. I remember giving a friend a group of eggs to get him familiar with the frogs very early in his hobby. The results are spectacular - he's now well respected in the hobby and maintains an excellent collection. Just a thought. 

Best,

Chuck

P.S. I can raise tadpoles and eggs to froglets. I've bought and sold and given away eggs and tadpoles - it doesn't imply anything on my abilities. I like to raise tadpoles - its fun.


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## GP dynamite

I have to agree with PDF on this one. I purchased some tads for some higher end frogs that I otherwise wouldn't be able to afford. The person that I purchased them from ensured that I was familiar with the species. So far, thanks in large part to some research on this board, the tads are starting to show some color and patterning. I am also raising 17 tads from 2 different clutches from my own frogs and have 5 froglets from yet another clutch. 

If the breeder is responsible about ensuring that the buyer is educated about tadpole care, the tads can have just as good of an outcome as they would with the original breeder. Tadpole purchase can allow froggers on a limited budget access to some higher end frogs. As long as the buyer understands the risks of loss, I don't see a problem. 

If anyone wants to sell me a few tads, for the right price, this guy is interested


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## frogparty

GP dynamite said:


> I have to agree with PDF on this one. I purchased some tads for some higher end frogs that I otherwise wouldn't be able to afford. The person that I purchased them from ensured that I was familiar with the species. So far, thanks in large part to some research on this board, the tads are starting to show some color and patterning. I am also raising 17 tads from 2 different clutches from my own frogs and have 5 froglets from yet another clutch.
> 
> If the breeder is responsible about ensuring that the buyer is educated about tadpole care, the tads can have just as good of an outcome as they would with the original breeder. Tadpole purchase can allow froggers on a limited budget access to some higher end frogs. As long as the buyer understands the risks of loss, I don't see a problem.
> 
> If anyone wants to sell me a few tads, for the right price, this guy is interested


WOAH- In my opinion, the breeder is NOT responsible. It is the responsibility of ANYONE purchasing ANY ANIMAL AT ANY DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE to educate themselves as to the specific care needs required. 

The supplier could definitely provide tips on what the tadpoles have been getting as far as water changes, food type etc, but if I was going to sell someone from the board frogs, tadpoles, etc Id be expecting that that individual had at least read the stickies!!!!


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## Amphinityfrogs

frogparty said:


> WOAH- In my opinion, the breeder is NOT responsible. It is the responsibility of ANYONE purchasing ANY ANIMAL AT ANY DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE to educate themselves as to the specific care needs required.
> 
> The supplier could definitely provide tips on what the tadpoles have been getting as far as water changes, food type etc, but if I was going to sell someone from the board frogs, tadpoles, etc Id be expecting that that individual had at least read the stickies!!!!


I think its a little of both. The breeder is responsible in offering information needed for raising to the buyer and so on, but it is also the responsibility of the buyer to educate themselves on the frog they are buying.


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## Pumilo

I have to agree with Frogparty on this. The breeder is NOT responsible to teach the purchaser. Learning about the animals you want to keep is your own responsibility. Do your homework BEFORE you bring home a new pet.


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## whitethumb

ditto! besides, why would any responsible person buy an animal without looking into its care and husbandry? 



Pumilo said:


> I have to agree with Frogparty on this. The breeder is NOT responsible to teach the purchaser. Learning about the animals you want to keep is your own responsibility. Do your homework BEFORE you bring home a new pet.


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## oldlady25715

Dave II said:


> Hello, so I have been seeing this more & more. I can't say how I really feel about it. It depends on who is buying them for me personally. Just was wondering what other members thought of selling tads.
> Thanks in advance.


I'll let anyone buy me tadpoles.


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## SDRiding

The breeder might not have the obligation to ensure the purchaser is educated and the animal goes to a safe home... 

I have a lot of respect for the ones that do.


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## frog dude

frogparty said:


> WOAH- In my opinion, the breeder is NOT responsible. It is the responsibility of ANYONE purchasing ANY ANIMAL AT ANY DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE to educate themselves as to the specific care needs required.
> 
> The supplier could definitely provide tips on what the tadpoles have been getting as far as water changes, food type etc, but if I was going to sell someone from the board frogs, tadpoles, etc Id be expecting that that individual had at least read the stickies!!!!


I do absolutely agree. As soon as the frog/s are purchased, it is from then on the buyer's responsibility to test fecals and treat any illnesses the frog/s may have that was not present or noticeable at the time of purchase unless there is a guarantee and everything is inside the sellers terms. If that is the case, I do believe that the seller should fulfill that guarantee, as I have said before, as long as everything is within the sellers guarantee terms.

That said, being so young it is quite hard to get the money needed for some of these frogs. Selling tadpoles is a great idea to expand your collection with nice frogs rather inexpensively. I do believe that you should have proper experience raising tadpoles of similar species and have read up plenty of info on the young froglets. I absolutely do think that people with some nicer species should start selling tadpoles and I do think that there will be a good market for that. You can imagine that a twelve year old's income isn't that large, and one of the only ways I have made it this far into this hobby is by all you peoples willingness to give and share experience with me. I am forever thankful for that. And because of the small income I do receive, as long as I have done proper research on that particular species and I do have experience raising tadpoles of similar species, I think buying tadpoles is a great and inexpensive way to get nice frogs into your collection.

Just my thoughts,

-Josiah


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## chuckpowell

IMO, this is a hobby, not a business for all but a few of us and both the seller and buyer should be responsible for the frogs. Also most of the business I'm aware of are responsible for making sure the buyer is educated and, hopefully, the animals will be well cared for. Once they leave your hands there is little you can do, but both people need to take responsibility that the animals are well cared for. 

Best,

Chuck



frogparty said:


> WOAH- In my opinion, the breeder is NOT responsible. It is the responsibility of ANYONE purchasing ANY ANIMAL AT ANY DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE to educate themselves as to the specific care needs required.


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## frogparty

when someone throws out the phrase the BREEDER is responsible, I get irked. THat basically implies to me that the buyer need take no proactive measures to ensure the well being of the animals theyre purchasing. When I was young, I spent ALL my spare $ on exotics, and all my spare tie in the library or at pet stores learning everything I could from whomever would tell me anything. 

This goes back to my early days of herp/invert care PRE INTERNET. Where you actually had to work to get the information you needed and couldnt post questions that make it blaringly obvious that you have done ZERO prior research on your own. 

I think its super irresponsible to assume that youll get all the info you need from a breeder. To me thats setting yourself up for failure


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## mora

check this is,the matter of quality shipping.


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## frogparty

Quality shipping is a whole other matter entirely. That really comes with practice and a keen eye for detail


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## Dave II

THANK YOU EVERYONE! this thread really kind of opened my eyes a bit more and made me think more on others opinions.


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## Scott

That's fine - you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I'm telling you what I've seen over the last 15+ years. More often than not in the past - people were selling tads seemingly bc/ they could not raise them up - and wanted to get *something* out of them.

It's possible this has changed, but it will not have changed for everyone (all sellers).

s


pdfCrazy said:


> I couldn't disagree more. I have a 2.3 group of green sirensis that put out so many tads and eggs, at times I have more tadpoles than space.


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## frogparty

Are people selling tadpoles giving a SLS reacement/refund? That's what I'd be concerned with most


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## RobR

frogparty said:


> Are people selling tadpoles giving a SLS reacement/refund? That's what I'd be concerned with most


That is what I was offered and would do the same. I'm not arguing only sharing my perspective but I don't see how someone could care for frogs but be unable to raise a tadpole?


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## pdfCrazy

Personally, I wouldn't be selling tads of a species that I may have had SLS show up in. I'd feel comfortable guaranteeing no sls in my tads. Bu the subject has never come up. Normally, the people I have purchased from myself only gaurentee live arrival. And I'm fine with that. Buying tads versus froglets IS a little bit of a gamble, and with that gamble comes risk, but with that risk comes reduced pricing........

Scott, I wasn't attacking your opinion, just stating I strongly disagree with the implication that people selling tads are unsuccessful at raising them to frog-adult-hood. Some of the people I've purchased tads from are some of the most respected individuals in our little niche community.


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## Dave II

I'll add to this, as far as me. I care(not that others don't) for the welfare of what I'm selling as something living. So I would not have a problem selling tads to someone who has/has kept pdfs but to someone new to frogs I would not. Unless they could prove to me they at least have the knowledge to raise them. That is just me though.


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## frogparty

Dave II said:


> I'll add to this, as far as me. I care(not that others don't) for the welfare of what I'm selling as something living. So I would not have a problem selling tads to someone who has/has kept pdfs but to someone new to frogs I would not. Unless they could prove to me they at least have the knowledge to raise them. That is just me though.


Some people talk a really good game, but when it comes down to it don't have the slightest clue as to what's really going on. I think the sad truth about the exotics hobby is that you have to assume that a certain % of all the animals you sell will perish at the hands of their purchaser. If what you're selling is a rarity, has significant value to the hobby etc, then I'd be doing a bit more research into the buyer.

If someone wanted leuc tadpoles, I wouldn't do much questioning.


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## Pumilo

RobR said:


> That is what I was offered and would do the same. I'm not arguing only sharing my perspective but I don't see how someone could care for frogs but be unable to raise a tadpole?


You would be surprised how many people are still unaware of the need for a usable form of Vitamin A for their frogs. Our frogs require preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) and most vitamin dust manufacturers still do not include this! (Now you have to ask yourself, if the knowledge about retinol has been around this long, and they choose not to change their formula, what do they really care about...your frogs or your dollars?) I have walked more than a few people through their problems with morphing out good froglets, due to improper supplementation to the parent frogs. In fact, that is how I finally got my hands on a trio of Highland Sirensis/Standard Lamasi! He was doing great with his parents, but was losing all the eggs and tads. I helped him with the supplementation issues he was having, so I got a beautiful deal on the first three successful offspring!

Another comment. Yes, I agree that you should question why tads may be offered for sale. I would worry that they are not being properly raised before they are in your hands. However, that is not always the case. I choose to raise my tads to froglets. To me, that is an important part of the hobby and to this day, it thrills me to morph out a successful froglet. This winter, however, was tough on the glass business and I decided to sell a couple groups of Benedicta tadpoles. I sold them to 2 of the people who are commenting in this thread (you guys are welcome to say who you are if you care to). I DO know how to raise a tadpole. I included some of my tadpole food with one the the groups of tadpoles. The other gentleman was already using a custom tad food very similar to mine, so he used his own. Both people morphed them out fine, and now have groups of Benedicta. The were able to save some money on an otherwise, fairly high priced frog. I was able to put some cash back into the family funds.
I believe the details are important on a transaction like this. I guaranteed live delivery, but made it crystal clear that once they are out of my care, I can't promise they will morph out properly. This is a risk that the buyer takes. The buyers were aware of this, and knew that the reduced price reflected the risk.
Before I get a ton of requests, I don't make it a practice of selling tadpoles. Thanks.


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## frogface

Funny Doug, I was planning to give a local fella some tadpoles and packed up some of your delicious tad food to go with them. I ended up giving him froglets instead. Worked out really well. I got a surprise zoomed tank in exchange


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## Pumilo

frogface said:


> Funny Doug, .... some of your delicious tad food....


Kris buys it in bulk. She likes it for a quick, between meal snack. It's great on the road!


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## RobR

I see what your saying. My statement came from having only dealt with reputable people who have been producing froglets already and knowing the time and attention I give to my animals. I was looking at it as who can't basically care for a betta until it sprouts four legs, then give it land. I appreciate the people who have sold me tads for just that reason, that I enjoy morphing them out just like plants from seed or birds from eggs.


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## GP dynamite

frogparty said:


> WOAH- In my opinion, the breeder is NOT responsible. It is the responsibility of ANYONE purchasing ANY ANIMAL AT ANY DEVELOPMENTAL STAGE to educate themselves as to the specific care needs required.
> 
> The supplier could definitely provide tips on what the tadpoles have been getting as far as water changes, food type etc, but if I was going to sell someone from the board frogs, tadpoles, etc Id be expecting that that individual had at least read the stickies!!!!


My statement didnt come off as intended. I'm not saying its solely on the breeder. A dog breeder wouldn't give a dog to a kid. Why? The kid won't be responsible and wont be familiar with care and needs of the dog. I'm just saying that ensuring that the customer Has educated themselves should be a good practice. It's as simple as asking a few questions about their preparation. That's all. I agree its on the customer to learn.


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## DarkElvis

GP dynamite said:


> My statement didnt come off as intended. I'm not saying its solely on the breeder. A dog breeder wouldn't give a dog to a kid. Why? The kid won't be responsible and wont be familiar with care and needs of the dog. I'm just saying that ensuring that the customer Has educated themselves should be a good practice. It's as simple as asking a few questions about their preparation. That's all. I agree its on the customer to learn.


im gonna call BS on this. yes a dog breeder would just give a dog to a kid...why? because the [email protected]*@*strds sold it for 2000. 

then when said kid tried to return it after the "puppy love" wore off ( basically it crapped everywhere and wouldnt stop crying all the time) the buyer would have to forfit 75% of purchase price...

lets not bring dogs into this....and that kid was my little sister. 

similar, but not the same. we dont have PDF roaming the streets because of irresponsible owners.


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## GP dynamite

DarkElvis said:


> im gonna call BS on this. yes a dog breeder would just give a dog to a kid...why? because the [email protected]*@*strds sold it for 2000.
> 
> then when said kid tried to return it after the "puppy love" wore off ( basically it crapped everywhere and wouldnt stop crying all the time) the buyer would have to forfit 75% of purchase price...
> 
> lets not bring dogs into this....and that kid was my little sister.
> 
> similar, but not the same. we dont have PDF roaming the streets because of irresponsible owners.


No we don't. Just frogs given away, sold, or dead that end up thrown away. you dont see pdfs in the streets because they wouldn't survive. Look into invasive frogs in Hawaii and other pacific islands. 
http://www.hawaiiinvasivespecies.org/pests/coqui.html
They do very well there due t irresponsible buyers importers and sellers. Bottom line it's everyone's responsibility to know what they're getting into.

Secondly, settle down. I didn't sell your sister or any other kid a dog. I don't even own one. Where did your little sister get 2 grand for a dog? Why are we off topic?


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## Mike1980

DarkElvis said:


> im gonna call BS on this. yes a dog breeder would just give a dog to a kid...why? because the [email protected]*@*strds sold it for 2000.
> 
> then when said kid tried to return it after the "puppy love" wore off ( basically it crapped everywhere and wouldnt stop crying all the time) the buyer would have to forfit 75% of purchase price...
> 
> lets not bring dogs into this....and that kid was my little sister.
> 
> similar, but not the same. we dont have PDF roaming the streets because of irresponsible owners.


makes no sense whatsoever? what does this even mean with regards to anything thats been said or discussed?


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## DarkElvis

GP dynamite said:


> Secondly, settle down. I didn't sell your sister or any other kid a dog. I don't even own one. Where did your little sister get 2 grand for a dog? Why are we off topic?


i will not settle down, and blame you directly for her spending 2k on a dog. 

you stated, and i quote " a dog breeder wouldnt sell a dog to a kid..." and i called BS. reason being. the all mighty dollar. case in point, puppy mills. they dont really care, they just want the money. which is why someone MIGHT sell tadpoles. quicker turn around. they are not really worried about them because they have a breeding stock pumping out more. less work involved im sure if they are not worried about development. if the customer is unhappy (dead tad) its simple to just send another....much less work involved. 

now there are exceptions of course and responsible breeders. 

we are not "off topic" its called an analogy. 

where there is a potential buyer, there is a seller. 

its been said before, its the buyers responsibility to know what they are getting into. seller guarantee or not. 

as far as hawaii goes....yeah, it sucks. and thats why its really hard to get a lot of tropical fish/corals(pets) in and out of that state. but the case you pointed out by link was an introduction via cargo/plant that was not properly QT. not an irresponsible hobbiest/breeder. 

people abandon dogs all the time, i doubt we will ever see abandoned frogs because 90% of the time they wouldnt survive. 

my internet should make me subimt to a breathalizer test before allowing me to log in. 

i really didnt have anything to contribute. thanks for letting me waste your time


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## pdfCrazy

Pumilo said:


> This winter, however, was tough on the glass business and I decided to sell a couple groups of Benedicta tadpoles. I sold them to 2 of the people who are commenting in this thread (you guys are welcome to say who you are if you care to). I DO know how to raise a tadpole. I included some of my tadpole food with one the the groups of tadpoles. The other gentleman was already using a custom tad food very similar to mine, so he used his own. Both people morphed them out fine, and now have groups of Benedicta. The were able to save some money on an otherwise, fairly high priced frog. I was able to put some cash back into the family funds.




And what Beautiful froglets those Benedicta tuned into! I love em! (when I see them  )


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## whitethumb

love all 4 of my bennies. all morphed out and look great! 



Pumilo said:


> Another comment. Yes, I agree that you should question why tads may be offered for sale. I would worry that they are not being properly raised before they are in your hands. However, that is not always the case. I choose to raise my tads to froglets. To me, that is an important part of the hobby and to this day, it thrills me to morph out a successful froglet. This winter, however, was tough on the glass business and I decided to sell a couple groups of Benedicta tadpoles. I sold them to 2 of the people who are commenting in this thread (you guys are welcome to say who you are if you care to). I DO know how to raise a tadpole. I included some of my tadpole food with one the the groups of tadpoles. The other gentleman was already using a custom tad food very similar to mine, so he used his own. Both people morphed them out fine, and now have groups of Benedicta. The were able to save some money on an otherwise, fairly high priced frog. I was able to put some cash back into the family funds.
> I believe the details are important on a transaction like this. I guaranteed live delivery, but made it crystal clear that once they are out of my care, I can't promise they will morph out properly. This is a risk that the buyer takes. The buyers were aware of this, and knew that the reduced price reflected the risk.
> Before I get a ton of requests, I don't make it a practice of selling tadpoles. Thanks.


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## mydumname

DarkElvis said:


> im gonna call BS on this. yes a dog breeder would just give a dog to a kid...why? because the [email protected]*@*strds sold it for 2000.
> 
> then when said kid tried to return it after the "puppy love" wore off ( basically it crapped everywhere and wouldnt stop crying all the time) the buyer would have to forfit 75% of purchase price...
> 
> lets not bring dogs into this....and that kid was my little sister.
> 
> similar, but not the same. we dont have PDF roaming the streets because of irresponsible owners.


Ha wow wtf.....


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## Ed

pdfCrazy said:


> Personally, I wouldn't be selling tads of a species that I may have had SLS show up in. I'd feel comfortable guaranteeing no sls in my tads. .


The problem is that you cannot guarantee that SLS won't show up in the tadpoles due to conditions you *cannot control..* A classic example of this occurred with a number of zoos in the north-eastern US... they never had problems with SLS until they installed a new water system specifically a carbon filter to strip the chlorine out of the water... The side effect was that the carbon leached phosphate which when combined with the phosphate added to the tap water, it resulted in 100% SLS in multiple taxa (I personally saw it occur in Epipidobates, Dendrobates, Mantella, Smilesca and several other genera...)... Bottled water is often tap water that has been filtered to remove chlorine and other things affecting taste... So it is easily possible to get this as an issue from bottled water (or if the person uses their own carbon filtered system). So you can sell someone tadpoles that in clutches you raise never show SLS but all of the ones that are purchased show SLS..... It is way to easy with tadpoles to end up with one or more people bitching about "bad tadpoles" to their friends or people they meet at a get together... (since if phosphate is the issue replacing the tadpoles won't change a thing...)... and get a bad rap for it.... 

I would never sell tadpoles with any guarantee since there are too many factors that I cannot control with metamorphosis... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## pdfCrazy

Ed, I have a 4 stage RO that I make water for my misting system. It of course has a sediment filter, a carbon filter, Ion exchange resin, and the membrane. Water comes out very pure tds wise. When I use this water for my tads, I mix it 50/50 with my tap water which is rather hard. I treat the tap water with prime and let it age and de-gas a day or two before use. Should I be testing it for phosphates? I have not had a problem with SLS except one froglet that was a very first clutch from my green sirensis.


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## frogparty

A decent ion exchange resin system should include anion exchange as well as cation exchange resins. The anion x resin will remove phosphates, nitrates, nitrites, sulfates and the conjugate bases of organic acids. The cation x resin will capture calcium, iron, potassium 

Low pressure ion chromatography is what I do!!


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## pdfCrazy

Now if I only knew which resin was currently in my RO......


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## frogparty

Usually they do a mixed bed- combination of cation and anion exchange.


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## Ed

pdfCrazy said:


> Ed, I have a 4 stage RO that I make water for my misting system. It of course has a sediment filter, a carbon filter, Ion exchange resin, and the membrane. Water comes out very pure tds wise. When I use this water for my tads, I mix it 50/50 with my tap water which is rather hard. I treat the tap water with prime and let it age and de-gas a day or two before use. Should I be testing it for phosphates? I have not had a problem with SLS except one froglet that was a very first clutch from my green sirensis.


The problem with phosphate only occurred at institutions that had a municipal water supply that used high levels of phosphate to control corrosion of the pipes. This level in addition to that leached by the carbon in the filters crossed a threshold that induced the issue. It actually took awhile to tease out the cause because people first focused on the idea that the carbon was probably binding up a required micronutrient instead of what it was leaching. 
In your case you probably don't need to test for phosphate (in no small part because the carbon filter is before the RO membrane and you are further diluting the tap water. 
You can always check with your water supplier on whether or not they add phosphate to control corrosion (some companies use silicates or a combination of phosphate and silicates). 

Ed


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## srrrio

So this thread has been on my mind. Occasionally selling or giving tads or eggs to friends seems fine to me. I just am not to thrilled about people or businesses raising them for the purpose of selling them as tads. 

Just had to say it out loud.


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## pdfCrazy

srrrio said:


> So this thread has been on my mind. Occasionally selling or giving tads or eggs to friends seems fine to me. I just am not to thrilled about people or businesses raising them for the purpose of selling them as tads.
> 
> Just had to say it out loud.


So giving them away is ok, but sellign them is bad? I fail to see ANY logic in that. Can you explain your thinking to me on this? Cause your basically sayign its about the money, and if it is, you should be giving your froglets away to rahter than selling them. Whats the difference?


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## epiphytes etc.

Maybe you should re-read her post.


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## srrrio

pdfCrazy said:


> So giving them away is ok, but sellign them is bad? I fail to see ANY logic in that. Can you explain your thinking to me on this?


Sure, but you should read my post again, I did not say selling tads/eggs was bad. I said purposely breeding frogs for a quick easy sale of their tads was not something I support. 
Amongst several reasons, the main one would be the overbreeding of the frogs. Secondly if tads are super cheap and a person buys many and they all morph nicely, they can quickly be overwhelmed. Shortages of food, adequate housing... usually does not end well for the frogs.


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## mydumname

To just play the other side here.....I am guessing considering the company selling tadpoles also sells frogs, that they are not breeding the frogs to sell the tadpoles, but rather are just making both available. Their appears to be a market for them, which I am not surprised considering how frugal many on the forum are (reference the many posts about people wanting to cut corners/costs/etc, yes some of the cost saving methods surprise me). 

And to counter the argument that someone buying too many tadpoles has a chance of being overwhelmed, lack of food/housing....well people do that often with the actual frogs they purchase (even with one tank of frogs). Add life to the mix and random occurences, people can become short on time/food with one tank alone (see posts in need of flies and collection sales due to time constraints), so of course people could be overwhelmed. But that is the responsibility of the buyer. 

Now I am not supporting either side, . Everyone is going to have their own opinion, I have mine (not indicated here in this post). Some people have had luck with tads, while others have not.


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## pdfCrazy

So, thought I'd share what I got in the mail today. A HUGE shipment of tads. Not from a bussiness, from another member (who will go un-named so he is not bombarded with requests).

10 Yellowback tincs
7 Surinam Cobalt tincs
1 Azureus tinc
14 A. Bassleri black
6 Highland Tricolor
2 Moraspungo tricolor


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## pdfCrazy

Sally, sorry, misread your post. Yes, I think we ALL know who you are talking about. But, I still don't think that there is anything wrong necessarily wrong with even a bussiness selling tads IF it is done responsibly and in a manner which ensure the health and long term viability of the tads.


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## James

So many tads.... You have space for all of those? I can't even imagine your frog room


Maybe if said person was overwhelmed with the cobalt tads I could relieve them of their stash....  I'm still on the hunt for some


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## pdfCrazy

You should see what that amount of tads looks like once they were all broken down into individual deli cups. The bassleri, highlands, and Moraspungos were all communal in their own deli cups (the three on the left), pic of that to follow later



pdfCrazy said:


> So, thought I'd share what I got in the mail today. A HUGE shipment of tads. Not from a bussiness, from another member (who will go un-named so he is not bombarded with requests).
> 
> 10 Yellowback tincs
> 7 Surinam Cobalt tincs
> 1 Azureus tinc
> 14 A. Bassleri black
> 6 Highland Tricolor
> 2 Moraspungo tricolor


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## pdfCrazy

duplicate post deleted


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## lhu659982

I don't want to say that I am cheap but I am definitely not able to buy frogs outright all the time. I do not sell tadpoles simply because what I have is what I raise. I appreciate people that are able and willing to sell tadpoles because it allows people on a budget to get awesome frogs that they normally would not be able to afford . 

I agree that people can definitely get overwhelmed, but if you do your research and prepare appropriately, you stand a lower chance of facing a problem. Sometimes it's not to ones fault (but mr. murphy's) that we do not have sufficient amounts of food. When cultures crash you are left scrambling to find any tasty morsel you can muster (all comes back to being responsible and prepared). 

I haven't had tads shipped to me before so I cannot speak on that topic, but I think it's awesome that I can make arrangements with people to purchase or trade for tads at shows, meets or in parking lots  not to be taken creepily. I will say that once a few people start selling tads on a regular basis you will see a lot more people following suit. And who knows maybe it could lead to someone finding more efficient and safe methods of shipping tads in the future. (not saying the way it is done now isn't efficient or safe) 

Tads are fun, I know I enjoy watching the development happen right in front me. It's cool seeing the different morphs and sizes of tadpoles as they grow and change. 

I for one am not against selling tads but do believe it should be done through responsible and safe manners.


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## Dendro Dave

I've had 3 tad orders this year...1 order was a total loss, and ironically enough it looked to be the best packed order of all 3 (more water, better insulation, better box), though all were packed well IMO. I've definately recieved worse packed animal shipments and those made it here alive (I've mostly been pretty lucky in my animal purchases and dealings with vendors)....of the other 2 tad orders I only lost 1 other tad...all that made it to me alive, are still alive as of tonight.

So that first try this year didn't work out even though it was packed awesome. The only thing I can think of really is the temps were chilly but not super cold and maybe the small heatpack was enough to heat the water up to much, but it didn't feel unsually warm when I unpacked them...The other 2 worked out good except for the 1 dead tad in one order. Not sure what happened there, he looked in good shape...just not moving...I gave him the day but he didn't wake up ;( 

So that is my tadpole shipping experience, I think loosing that entire first shipment probably puts me at having worse luck then average. It almost soured me on tadpole shipping (Experience with the vendor was great though), but I'm kinda desperate to build my collection back up so I decided to try again...and it was good, and it was overall good the 3rd time too, except for one doa ;( (vendor handled it awesomely)

I haven't done it enough times to decide whether or not it is worth it in the long term to continue to buy tads and have them shipped. If I have more bad luck I may give up on tadpole shipping, but if orders go like the last two the vast majority of the time I may keep going for tads...because I'll have 10 frogs if they all make it that will be worth 3-5 times what I paid for them...though the plan is to keep them all, pair em up, maybe trade/sell any spares after I get pairs, and get them breeding. Also money is usually tight for me (though I've been a little stupid lately with how much I've spent), so it is a good way for me to build my collection back up post ice storm disaster that wiped me out a few years ago.

I probably won't offer tads myself except perhaps locally or in special circumstances...I have plenty of room and not a ton of frogs right now so I got the time and space to raise them up to juvies and sell/trade them then or just keep my favorites. 

So basically I'm just conveying my experience to help you all decide for yourselves...I'm still kinda undecided but overall If someone is willing to risk it I think it usually works out well enough that I can understand them being willing to take what risk there is...and especially if you know the vendor is awesome and ships excellently it is probably worth the risk. Time of year may factor in as well as many other factors...basically decide for yourself, but maybe don't be judgemental if others decide differently. It is probably best to take it on a case by case basis.

*So for now* anyone selling tads feel free to PM me when you have them available. If I can afford it and they are species I'm willing to make room for we may just have a deal....if I have more bad luck that may change but for now I'm willing. (Though I tend to buy from people I know, or can look up references/have good BOI threads etc..etc.. If you only have a few posts I may be less inclined to risk it)


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## pdfCrazy

See my recent ad dave. I have Vanzo's, green sirensis and Leuc tads for sale.


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## carola1155

Dendro Dave said:


> *So for now* anyone selling tads feel free to PM me when you have them available. If I can afford it and they are species I'm willing to make room for we may just have a deal....


It seemed to me like Dave was looking for a _good_ deal...


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## Dendro Dave

carola1155 said:


> It seemed to me like Dave was looking for a _good_ deal...


Dave's always looking for a good deal...because Dave still has a lot of work to do to get his collection back up to where it was at pre-Ice storm destruction days 

I've been out of touch for a few days in a nyquil/and ambien induced coma trying to avoid most of a bad sinus infection so I probably missed a good deal but let me go take a look


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## Scott

The "more water" might have been the issue.

You need air here - I don't know what the best mix would be (water/air), but since the water container HAS to be sealed, this is ALL the air they're going to get. 

If you HAVE to ship tads (eggs are easier as someone else said earlier ... ) - you need about 2/3rd water, some aquatic plant, and air. Without light I doubt the aquatic plants produce any oxygen - but you never know.

s


Dendro Dave said:


> I've had 3 tad orders this year...1 order was a total loss, and ironically enough it looked to be the best packed order of all 3 (more water, better insulation, better box), though all were packed well IMO. ...)


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## Dendro Dave

Scott said:


> The "more water" might have been the issue.
> 
> You need air here - I don't know what the best mix would be (water/air), but since the water container HAS to be sealed, this is ALL the air they're going to get.
> 
> If you HAVE to ship tads (eggs are easier as someone else said earlier ... ) - you need about 2/3rd water, some aquatic plant, and air. Without light I doubt the aquatic plants produce any oxygen - but you never know.
> 
> s


They actually did leave some air in the tops of the bottles, like where they start to go in to the neck/cap portion of the bottle....basically if you had taken a few drinks out of bottle. The main body of the bottle was full of water...the dome/cap left empty...that probably makes for a simpler visual example 

My main theory is there was a heat pack, and we shipped at a time of year when it wasn't super cold, nor was it warm...I don't remember feeling any excess heat when I opened the box/felt the bottles but it could have been enough at some point in the journey to get them a little to warm for a little to long. 

The other possible culprit (or together), was that it was about 48 hours from their door to mine, and my call on the slightly slower shipping method so that is on me, and that may have made all the difference. 

It was my first time receiving tads and their first shipping them I believe and I had read that overnight wasn't really necessary somewhere (Meh, is/isn't not risking it again either way), and the shipping was crazy high for the overnight... so I chanced it...and got bit for it.


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## Taari

I really wanted a group of 5-6 vents. I already had one adult that I got from a friend that was a calling male, so I wanted to get him some friends, but I'm a student on a tight budget. I ended up buying 5 tadpoles from Aqua Tropics here on the forum and 4 of them morphed out into beautiful frogs. The last one died a couple days after it popped it's front legs. I don't know why it died, but I paid less for 5 tadpoles than I would have for 1 adult frog, and I still have 4 healthy growing froglets, so I am very happy with them. To me it was worth the gamble.


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## Dendro Dave

Taari said:


> I really wanted a group of 5-6 vents. I already had one adult that I got from a friend that was a calling male, so I wanted to get him some friends, but I'm a student on a tight budget. I ended up buying 5 tadpoles from Aqua Tropics here on the forum and 4 of them morphed out into beautiful frogs. The last one died a couple days after it popped it's front legs. I don't know why it died, but I paid less for 5 tadpoles than I would have for 1 adult frog, and I still have 4 healthy growing froglets, so I am very happy with them. To me it was worth the gamble.


Who are these aquatropics guys? gotta link to a site or DB forum name a can look up?


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## pdfCrazy

Another round of Tadpoles have arrived!!

8 Phyllobates Auroteania 'Green'
5 Ranitomeya Amazonica 'Red' Kelley line
2 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Patricia'
4 Adelphobates Galactonotus 'Yelow'


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## Dendro Dave

pdfCrazy said:


> Another round of Tadpoles have arrived!!
> 
> 8 Phyllobates Auroteania 'Green'
> 5 Ranitomeya Amazonica 'Red' Kelley line
> 2 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Patricia'
> 4 Adelphobates Galactonotus 'Yelow'


Got any pics of the Red amy parents?


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## KC3

I'm still confused on proper tad packing even though the picts and vid were great. Does the tad sloshing around in the water bag/container not cause a lot of stress that can lead to death? Or are they tougher then I thought?



carola1155 said:


> It seemed to me like Dave was looking for a _good_ deal...


And I'll be sure to keep my burn cream handy for our conversations Tom lol geez


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## Dendro Dave

KC3 said:


> I'm still confused on proper tad packing even though the picts and vid were great. Does the tad sloshing around in the water bag/container not cause a lot of stress that can lead to death? Or are they tougher then I thought?
> 
> 
> And I'll be sure to keep my burn cream handy for our conversations Tom lol geez


I think there is some debate about that...I'm not sure what the consensus is. I think all the ones I got had some space for air though.


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## pdfCrazy

small 3-4 ounce tupperware that is 2/3 or 3/4 full of tad water. Seal them, tape them closed for safety. Lots of packing peanuts in the box with phase 22 soft packs. Ship just liek normal. I've never lost a tad in shipment to or from me.


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## KC3

pdfCrazy said:


> small 3-4 ounce tupperware that is 2/3 or 3/4 full of tad water. Seal them, tape them closed for safety. Lots of packing peanuts in the box with phase 22 soft packs. Ship just liek normal. I've never lost a tad in shipment to or from me.


I think it just boggles my mind that we're capable of shipping tads now lol what's the price range on tads is it like 25% or 50% the cost of a froglet?


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## frog dude

KC3 said:


> I think it just boggles my mind that we're capable of shipping tads now lol what's the price range on tads is it like 25% or 50% the cost of a froglet?


I would sell tads under 1 1/2 months old for 1/3 the price of subadult of the same species. Tads older then 1 1/2 months old would be 1/2 the price of a subadult, IMO


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## mydumname

Wow of a subadult? If I could sell my tads for 1/3-1/2 the price of a subadult of that frog.....I would absolutely do so. That would be almost as much as a froglet for some species. Though I really couldn't imagine someone would actually pay that much. I don't usually sell tads so not sure where the market really is though.


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## Pubfiction

I think there are several issues with tads, IMO one of the largest costs with frogs is the shipping. But I assume that tads cost just as much as the frogs to ship. Maybe more if the water is heavier. So I would think that the price of tads would have to be very low to overcome this and all other risks. I tend to think the norms in the business are about market demand. If there was huge demand for tads we would not have this conversation now, because everyone would be selling tads. But I think the majority of buyers just want a frog that is old enough that they can see the color pattern and features if they are going to pay that much for shipping. 

People cut corners and try to save money that's nothing new, It honestly cannot be considered good to sell frog groups from the same parents / clutch but you can bet most groups from most breeders are sold like that. Yet people do it anyway? Once again IMO this probably comes down to shipping. I don't have any frogs yet but want to get a group and I am trying to figure out what I can source from diverse parents and I will probably add $200 to my cost in shipping alone if I want to do that. 

So IMO tads are no less responsible than many other practices in the trade they just don't have huge demand to drive it. But who knows the trade changes and maybe at some point we will have tad rearing down so well there will be almost no risk to going with tads. And people will be willing. If someone is going to start with a group of subadults that are unsexed from the same parents and not even know what they look like, then why not save money and get the same thing out of a group of tads?

At least on our first frogs I think most people like myself will pay more to see the color / pattern and know exactly how many we are getting. 

One other issue is raising, maybe some people feel they can raise a tad better than a mass breeder and would rather do that. I have seen various orange frogs with dingy colors at shows and information here seems to suggest that better supplements might help that issue.


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## mydumname

I disagree....I haven't seen an increase in costs to ship tads. I have shipped before and it was actually no different. Play on syr website and add a pound to a box....it often males no difference. Plus it is easier to do 2 day with tads then frogs.

As far as seeing the frogs before you buy.....I have purchased more frogs site unseen then I have seen. And I have sold more unseen then people have seen beforehand. I get pics in most situations if buying pairs. I also couldn't imagine some breeders taking individual pics of frogs.

And for it being a problem to buy related frogs.....well guess that's a whole separate discussion and topic.


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## frog dude

mydumname said:


> Wow of a subadult? If I could sell my tads for 1/3-1/2 the price of a subadult of that frog.....I would absolutely do so. That would be almost as much as a froglet for some species. Though I really couldn't imagine someone would actually pay that much. I don't usually sell tads so not sure where the market really is though.


I probably should have made it clear that what I said was based on my opinion, what *I* would sell a subadult for. I would sell a subadult azureus for about $30, so a tad would be $10-$15 ea. I wouldn't sell a Shucushuyacu Benedicta tad for more then $45, even though I would sell a subadult for $125. I would vary the price of a tadpole depending on the value of a subadult. It won't always be based on the 1/2-1/3 method.


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## KC3

frog dude said:


> I probably should have made it clear that what I said was based on my opinion, what *I* would sell a subadult for. I would sell a subadult azureus for about $30, so a tad would be $10-$15 ea. I wouldn't sell a Shucushuyacu Benedicta tad for more then $45, even though I would sell a subadult for $125. I would vary the price of a tadpole depending on the value of a subadult. It won't always be based on the 1/2-1/3 method.


Even $45 would be a lot for such a gamble wouldn't it? I don't know the success rate of buying/shipping tads it just seems like a bigger risk for something that is still developing. But I honestly have no idea so that is why I'm curious. Is it usually worth the risk?


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## frog dude

KC3 said:


> Even $45 would be a lot for such a gamble wouldn't it? I don't know the success rate of buying/shipping tads it just seems like a bigger risk for something that is still developing. But I honestly have no idea so that is why I'm curious. Is it usually worth the risk?


Well, I do remember seeing some benedicta tads with red heads and small legs for $50. That was also local only. I should add that especially with something like benedicta I would only sell to somebody with experience morphing out similar/the same species. I am not sure I would ship them if I ever had tads to sell quite yet.


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## KC3

Well that answers my question then, thanks lol


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## pdfCrazy

Well, as someone who has shipped/recieved tads multiple times, and I've obviously commented on this subject extensivly, I think I have a bit of insight and knowledge on the subject, so here goes:

I had a single tadpole die in a shipment I recieved. To my knowledge, of my tads I've sent out, all have made it no problem. I've recieved almost 100 tads in the last year, and over the course of morphing out, I HAVE lost a few. These were species that were new to me, that I had not worked with, and a few drowned before I "got it right" in morphing them out. Temperatures with frogs/boxes can swing wildly in shipping, thats why we use phase 22's with them. They act as a sort of heat/cold sink stabilizign the temp. "Back in the day", 20 ounce soda bottles filled with water were often placed into frog shipments because they would insulate against wide/sudden temp swings. Lots of small containers of water for tads do the same thing and act the same way. IMO, tads ship better than frogs do. Myself, prices for tads vary depending both on the price of froglets in comparison, and the rarity or how common the species are. Honestly, I'd love to know who's selling 50.00 Benny tads, I'm tempted to call BS. Prices......well, supply and demand. And yes, tads are in HIGH demand. Just on the pic I posted of the tads I had recieved a few days ago, I recieved NUMEROUS requests for tads/prices.


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## Dendro Dave

I think tads should remain a niche in the market... frankly if you have the time/space it is just smarter to hold onto them. But if you wanna reduce your workload, and help people get frogs they might not other otherwise be able to afford then it is a good idea.

I think it would be nice to see vendors release a few of their more prolific species while holding the majority for sale as froglets...Think of it as hedging your bet, while spreading a little good will. You get some instant money with very little overhead from tadpole sales, but have the majority to sell as froglets for the bigger money.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

pdfCrazy said:


> Well, as someone who has shipped/recieved tads multiple times, and I've obviously commented on this subject extensivly, I think I have a bit of insight and knowledge on the subject, so here goes:
> 
> I had a single tadpole die in a shipment I recieved. To my knowledge, of my tads I've sent out, all have made it no problem. I've recieved almost 100 tads in the last year, and over the course of morphing out, I HAVE lost a few. These were species that were new to me, that I had not worked with, and a few drowned before I "got it right" in morphing them out. Temperatures with frogs/boxes can swing wildly in shipping, thats why we use phase 22's with them. They act as a sort of heat/cold sink stabilizign the temp. "Back in the day", 20 ounce soda bottles filled with water were often placed into frog shipments because they would insulate against wide/sudden temp swings. Lots of small containers of water for tads do the same thing and act the same way. IMO, tads ship better than frogs do. Myself, prices for tads vary depending both on the price of froglets in comparison, and the rarity or how common the species are. Honestly, I'd love to know who's selling 50.00 Benny tads, I'm tempted to call BS. Prices......well, supply and demand. And yes, tads are in HIGH demand. Just on the pic I posted of the tads I had recieved a few days ago, I recieved NUMEROUS requests for tads/prices.


Tads are in high demand because of a combination of things.
1. People are cheap. They can buy 4 tads for the price of 1 froglet that's 2 months oow. Even if 3 out of the 4 die they are still right on track. 
2. With more froggers in the hobby, either inexperienced or unwilling to do the necessary work with tads, more are available. 
3. See #1 above.



Dendro Dave said:


> I think tads should remain a niche in the market... frankly if you have the time/space it is just smarter to hold onto them. But if you wanna reduce your workload, and help people get frogs they might not other otherwise be able to afford then it is a good idea.
> 
> I think it would be nice to see vendors release a few of their more prolific species while holding the majority for sale as froglets...Think of it as hedging your bet, while spreading a little good will. You get some instant money with very little overhead from tadpole sales, but have the majority to sell as froglets for the bigger money.


I currently have over 200 tads from 12 different species in the water. I know very well not every tad will make it to morph out healthy. I'd rather take that risk than ship out weak tads to a customer. I'm willing to wait for 2 to 3 months after the froglet morphs out to raise the froglet to a good size, making sure it's eating and growing normally before selling it. The only advantages I can see to selling tads is the buyer doesn't spend much money, and the seller doesn't have to do much work. What cost does this come at though? Allowing weaker frogs in to the hobby? Lessening the demand and price for froglets and juvis? What's next, shipping eggs?


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## Scott Richardson

Jon,
I will add #4...So kids can raise the tads to morph out.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

Scott Richardson said:


> Jon,
> I will add #4...So kids can raise the tads to morph out.


Bullfrog or leopard frog tads are available at a lot of pet stores and pond stores.


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## srrrio

I am happy to give local kids tadpoles to raise. I do ask that when they morph and they don't want to raise the froglets (or fruit flies), that they either return them to me or sell them to the local pet stores.

You can get 2-3 month old froglets for $25 right now in the classifieds ..nice tincs, etc, etc.


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## pdfCrazy

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> What's next, shipping eggs?


As a matter of fact............I recieved a shipment of beatiful Costa Rican auratus eggs from a fellow in a trade recently. Not only did they ship to me well, but I have not lost a single one, and they are all morphing now. On top of that, they were shipped in the worst heat of the summer, but packaged excellently. (if your reading this, you shall remain anonymous, no worries)

I think there is a distorted and incorrect view that selling tads is a "short cut", and only people without experience to raise them to froglets would sell tads. Heres my motivation.......I currently have well over 100 subadult and adult frogs. Of those, only 4 species are currently actively breeding for me, the rest are still too young. I'm not ashamed to say, in my career, I dont make alot of money, certainly not enough to grow and add alot of species/tanks to my collection. Raising tads to froglets that are old enough to ship is certainly the preferable and more profitable way. However, with the selling and trading of species of tads I had alot of, I was able to add many new species, build new tanks, aquire plants and supplies, all of which I would NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO AFFORD on my rather limited income. Yes, if I had waited till this winter, those tads would bring me twice as much as froglets. Its a trade off. Right now, I have over 30 standard leuc tadpoles, and I'm contemplating offering up at least a dozen or so.


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## pdfCrazy

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Allowing weaker frogs in to the hobby? Lessening the demand and price for froglets and juvis?


So do you cull your weaker smaller froglets and euthanize them?


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## WendySHall

I've been on both ends (buyer/seller) of this topic. I personally believe that this is fine...just know the background and experience of the seller.

As a buyer, I've had great results raising the tads and getting them to morph out and grow into beautiful adult frogs. Only with one particular seller did I experience a disaster. The first shipment arrived basically waterless and all of those tads were dead or died within a few days. The second shipment arrived safely, but only two (out of I believe 6) of the tads morphed out (and one remained tiny). So, the bad experience was partially my own fault. It was before I realized in full the reputation of the seller.

When I have sold tads, it was only because I had an abundance. (Tincs can breed a lot when they get going!) I made sure they were over a month old (seems like if there's gonna be a problem, it occurs early), a good size, appeared healthy, and were from frogs that I had previous morph-out success with. So, I expected them to turn into healthy froglets. My reasoning for selling them:

---I can fit 18 8oz containers stacked in a single row on my rack. Each morph can have up to this much space for tads each month. That is all they are allotted. (Read on to see why.)
---Tinc tads have to be housed separately. Too many tads equals a lot of containers, a lot of space, and a lot of time towards feeding and water changes.
---Too many of one morph makes it harder to sell all of the froglets while they are young.
---If I can't sell them all while they are very young, I need a lot more space to house them.
---If I can't sell them all while they are very young, I need a lot more time for frog care and maintenance of even more enclosures.
---If I can't sell them all while young, I need a lot more food (which means money, time, and yet more space).

Right now, I spend an average of 2-8 hours a day in my frogroom Monday through Friday...I try make myself stay out of there on the weekends, but I'm hopeless and still find myself sneaking in there at least for a little bit.  I don't sell tads very often and I don't consider myself lazy, unable to raise froglets, or out to make a quick buck. My frogs are well-cared for and cherished. So, based on my experience...I say if you can get tads, go for it. Just be careful of who you are buying them from.


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## Rusty_Shackleford

pdfCrazy said:


> So do you cull your weaker smaller froglets and euthanize them?


Absolutely I do. Sometimes I'll even cull tads if they aren't growing as well as their siblings.


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## Dendro Dave

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> I currently have over 200 tads from 12 different species in the water. I know very well not every tad will make it to morph out healthy. I'd rather take that risk than ship out weak tads to a customer. I'm willing to wait for 2 to 3 months after the froglet morphs out to raise the froglet to a good size, making sure it's eating and growing normally before selling it. The only advantages I can see to selling tads is the buyer doesn't spend much money, and the seller doesn't have to do much work. What cost does this come at though? Allowing weaker frogs in to the hobby? Lessening the demand and price for froglets and juvis? What's next, shipping eggs?


Ya that is a lot of why I'd rather see it as a niche/occasional thing rather then a standard practice. But, I think though most are not willing to cull any froglet/tad that isn't really messed up (and that may be an argument for not making tad sales a habit). Whether that should be standard practice, and what qualifies a frog/tad for the cull or for a chance to live might be a good thread to have. My only tads were ones I bought, as only my red galacts are mature enough to breed and I don't know If I have a pair, and my azureus are 2 females. So I'm keeping anything that morphs out at the moment, but I don't have the luxury of 200 tads and froglets... If was breeding on that scale then I very well would likely consider culling in some cases.

The other reason to see this remain as a niche market, is it becomes very easy to get screwed by people who have SLS or other health issues or who's frogs just put out dud tads/froglets repeatedly. Essentially we need to make sure people who sell tads that never morph, or most die/die quickly after morphing are not encourage to keep at it. This is tricky though because who knows if the tad I got was a dud, or if I killed it?...or it was just one of the bad ones to start with? 

So selling a few tads now and then when you're overwhelmed...Ok, but maybe we don't make a habit of it? (And remember this is coming from the broke guy who will buy tads, and really wants to expand his collection...but would rather see the hobby thrive)

Having said all that though, for now I am still willing to buy tads if your frogs/husbandry has shown that most of those tads should morph into healthy froglets... So hit me up


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## Chanceum10

whitethumb said:


> i purchased tads that were shipped to me. not because the seller was looking to get rid of them or didnt have the space. i asked around and found someone willing to sale me some tads. all arrived alive and all morphed into froglets. id do it again in a heartbeat but i think shipping them is different than shipping froglets. if your seller knows what he's doing, i dont see a problem.


Hey man, I was wondering how did u get tadpoles from hawaii because I found thats illegal to have dart frogs in your possession. I mean I would like to be a breeder here but the fine is hefty if caught lol. So how did u do it?


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## carola1155

Chanceum10 said:


> Hey man, I was wondering how did u get tadpoles from hawaii because I found thats illegal to have dart frogs in your possession. I mean I would like to be a breeder here but the fine is hefty if caught lol. So how did u do it?



not talking/asking about it on an open forum is a pretty good place to start...


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## whitethumb

you might want to reread my post. nowhere does it say the word hawaii. i don't live there and neither does the seller.



Chanceum10 said:


> Hey man, I was wondering how did u get tadpoles from hawaii because I found thats illegal to have dart frogs in your possession. I mean I would like to be a breeder here but the fine is hefty if caught lol. So how did u do it?


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## carola1155

I think he actually meant to quote the post before yours


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## pdfCrazy

Bump for a good thread....spring is just around the corner, and we're going to be looking for lots of tadpoles of species we aren't currently working with.


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