# Healthy or too fat?



## trendkill (Nov 5, 2012)

This frog in particular has really plumped up since I got him. Just wondering if this is a healthy looking froglet still growing (he's about 4 months out of the water), or if I shouldn't be feeding as much. I feed daily, or skip a day if there are still flies left over from the previous afternoon.



















Hard to capture in photos, but he has quite the gut. When he sits up, his belly sticks out from underneath as well. The other two froglets he is with look good and eat their fair share, but aren't quite as um, piggish or round in the tummy as this one.


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## Daleo (Jan 31, 2012)

Looks healthy to me. IMO a fat froglet is better than a skinny one. If it were an adult it could be more of an issue but I wouldn't worry. 

Maybe someone with more experience will chime in to give their take on it.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

It looks good to me. Beautiful tinc.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Adorable! I think he looks good


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## Julie7741 (Sep 13, 2012)

I have tinc froglets right now. Mine are about 10 weeks out of water. Some are more "plump" than others. I try to move them around and separate the skinnier ones from chubby ones. Just keep an eye and make sure your others aren't getting too skinny. I have found that sometimes the more aggressive eaters can overwhelm skinnier ones. I think he looks good!


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

if that is fat i need to have an intervention with our female Azureus. lol. I like to keep ours plump and well fed. Makes for some excellent breeding! You can literally count the eggs when the female is ready! Keep up the solid work, it looks great!


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## trendkill (Nov 5, 2012)

Thanks guys. I just don't want any problems from rapid growth or being too chubby. These are my first darts so it's hard to tell.  The other two look like this:




























They eat well.. just not as much as the first.


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## frog dude (Nov 11, 2011)

Those are beautiful! They are cobalts, correct?


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## trendkill (Nov 5, 2012)

Thank you! I picked them out in person from the breeder which was great.. I had quite a few to choose from and really liked to color on these. They are cobalts, yep.


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

in my opinion, froglets can't be overly fat (think chubby human baby's ) just my 2 cents


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

It looks perfectly healthy to me. Froglets are often a bit chubbier than the adults and may even have s slightly different posture. It should become thinner over time and take on a typical adult shape.


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## mavhammer45 (Apr 7, 2011)

Your froglet looks fine.

Remember, fat is always better then too skinny.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As a general rule of thumb, if you have to ask if a frog or froglet is too fat then it is.... Obesity is extremely common in captive dendrobatids. 

The comments that fat is better than too skinny is incorrect as fat frogs are subject to many issues that can significantly compromise thier health both in the short and long-term... The main stores of fat in the body of frogs and toads are pads of fat in the abdominal cavity and as they get larger, they not only compress the internal organs (which can not only interfere with breathing but cause other issues) but at a certain point the liver begins to also store fat... Fatty livers are compromised livers and cannot function as well and the result can be death (including slower lingering deaths from "bloating").... 

Obesity and the conditions under which the frogs are kept can also result in precocious breeding which will stunt the long-term growth of the frog... 

Due to how the fat pads are placed, by the time you can see that the frog looks fat it has gone past fat into obese.... I strongly suggest getting a good picture reference (like Poison Frogs by Lotters et al) and comparing how the frogs in the wild look to the captive ones.... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Nismo95 said:


> You can literally count the eggs when the female is ready! Keep up the solid work, it looks great!


If you can do this then your frog is morbidly obese... The fat pads are so large that they are actively displacing the ovulated eggs and it is highly likely that it also has a very fatty liver which is a significant risk for damage to the liver... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## trendkill (Nov 5, 2012)

Thank you Ed. It's difficult to see the "roundness" of the belly in my photos, but the frog is very chubby. Chubby enough for me to worry and start this thread. 

I appreciate the info on fat stores. This is exactly what I'm concerned about. I feed my reptiles moderately and have had great success with them by keeping them lean and healthy. Fat snakes often have a very difficult time reproducing, and obesity takes years off the lifespan. Fatty food items fed too often can lead to many issues, yet keepers continue to overfeed. And somehow what many consider a "healthy snake" is actually a chubby, overfed snake. I've also seen comments about frogs looking too thin, when to me they look just fine. But like I said, I'm new to keeping these guys so I have a lot to learn. As with almost every animal we keep in captivity, fat and even obese pets have become more of the norm. As you said, wild and healthy specimens look drastically different. It's just so easy to overfeed, for many reasons. 

The other two froglets who share the viv with this frog are becoming more bold and are eating out in the open more often now. Because of this I've been able to cut back on the amount of flies I feed, and not have to worry about the others getting enough to eat. I'll post some updated pictures in a few weeks. I hope a little growth and a little less food will trim back the gut on this one.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It can take a lot less food to enable a frog to lose weight than most people think and a lot longer... For example if you calculate it out a 1 gram frog at 25 C (if I remember correctly) can have it's resting metabolic rate met by about 6 flies a day.... And since they can reduce thier metabolic rate to meet conditions, you can see why dieting is difficult in herps... (obese snakes can take more than one to two years to lose significant amount of weight when on calorie controlled diets.)... 
Don't forget if you can see the pudge then it has substantial fat pads... If you can get access to copy of Lotter's book and look at the frogs in the wild, you'll get a good idea on how fat most of the captive ones are... 


Some comments 

Ed


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