# Anyone know why my frog does this?



## smilexelectric (Mar 14, 2009)

Every breeding day they go into a hut with a dish, then the male circles the dish stomping his back legs. Is their a reason he does this, do your frogs do this? I am currently watching them prepare their whole day adventure of layin eggs.

Interesting to watch.


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## Wallace Grover (Dec 6, 2009)

Perhaps he is signaling the female to lay her eggs there? 

It seems and awful lot like the way a Thumbnail might call a female over to specific broms to lay her eggs...


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## dartdevil1 (Apr 23, 2011)

My panamanian auratus do that,the female will go into the hut and the male stays in front of the door and stomps his back feet or if she comes out he will follow her around doing this.


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## Baltimore Bryan (Sep 6, 2006)

My leucs do this "dance" a lot when they breed. The male and even the female do "happy feet" and rapidly start stepping in place. I don't know if maybe they are checking to see if they have found a suitable place to lay eggs, or if it's just courtship, or something else.
Bryan


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

My p.aurotaenia did that the first day in the viv,not all of them did this though,could this be males marking territory?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If you get a copy of Breeding Terrarium Animals by Elke Zimmerman, you can compare the behaviors described in there with the ones you are seeing. 

It is probably part of a courtship ritual. 

Ed


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> If you get a copy of Breeding Terrarium Animals by Elke Zimmerman, you can compare the behaviors described in there with the ones you are seeing.
> 
> It is probably part of a courtship ritual.
> 
> Ed


My aurotaenia aren't sexually mature though


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendroguy said:


> My aurotaenia aren't sexually mature though


I was referring to the OP... 

In reference to your comment, while there is evidence that some dendrobatids can use olfaction to locate thier home range, there isn't anything that demonstrates territorial marking (in pumilio they can find a certain bromeliad..). In any case, territorial marking isn't common in subadult vertebrates.. one of the reasons is because if subadults began to mark territories they would be in competition with the adults which means that aggression would start with them as juveniles....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I should also add that no glands for territorial marking have been identified in anurans....


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Riverdance??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Odd,very odd indeed,could this be a new behavior expressed in certain phyllobates species not yet identified or seen already but given no thought to?


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## kylesmoney (Mar 29, 2010)

rusty_shackleford said:


> riverdance??


lol!!!!!!!!


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## btcope (Jan 7, 2009)

was it like this??? 






This was a few weeks ago right before my Amazonica laid a clutch. I just caught my FG vent doing the same dance right before finding a clutch of 12. Clearly it drives the ladies wild.

-brett


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

my leucs do the foot stamping thing a lot. My imis do the robot walk. Its very jerky, and deliberate looking. Just part of the awesomness of witnessing animal behavior


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> I was referring to the OP...
> 
> In reference to your comment, while there is evidence that some dendrobatids can use olfaction to locate thier home range, there isn't anything that demonstrates territorial marking (in pumilio they can find a certain bromeliad..). In any case, territorial marking isn't common in subadult vertebrates.. one of the reasons is because if subadults began to mark territories they would be in competition with the adults which means that aggression would start with them as juveniles....


i was thinking visual marking, for instance if another frog(possibly male)saw a tankmate doing this he/she would not go near that area


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendroguy said:


> i was thinking visual marking, for instance if another frog(possibly male)saw a tankmate doing this he/she would not go near that area


 
Visually marking or visual signaling? They are two different things.. In addition, if the subadults begin to "mark" or "signal" territorial claims, they are going to be in direct competition with the adults, which means that there will be strong aggression from adults on the juveniles. The reason for this is that the amount of time that an animal remains in a territory, the better it may be able to defend that territory.


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## smilexelectric (Mar 14, 2009)

btcope said:


> was it like this???
> 
> YouTube - Ranitomeya Ventrimaculata "Amazonica" courting
> 
> ...


It was not that, but it was this:

MVI_0979.mp4 video by smilexelectric - Photobucket

Note: These are my frogs in the video.

All I have to say to that video is, dont stop get it get it, dont stop get it get it. Hahaha.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Visually marking or visual signaling? They are two different things.. In addition, if the subadults begin to "mark" or "signal" territorial claims, they are going to be in direct competition with the adults, which means that there will be strong aggression from adults on the juveniles. The reason for this is that the amount of time that an animal remains in a territory, the better it may be able to defend that territory.


visual signaling,for an example when a frog sees another frog do this it would not go near,it would seem that if the juveniles were far enough from the adults territory they could do this and fight among fellow juveniles in that area to establish dominance and territory,then when the next generatuon gets to the juvenail stage they migrate to another region and this goes on throughout the generations


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Given that dendrobatids are known to defend egg and tadpole deposition sites and that territorial actions are known to be triggered when a frog can see a conspecific that is behaving like an adult (and showing territorial displays qualifys), and it is stretching the idea that the juveniles would come out of the water in unoccupied territory.. (particularly when some species can defend an area as large as 81 square meters under certain conditions)... and that juveniles would have a hard time defending against an adult that is already occupying the territory, it seems pretty counter to survivial to have immature animals engaging in territorial displays that would get the snot kicked out of them by an adult of the same species. 

There is a fair bit of literature on this topic and this is a decent start http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0502587/Nectophrynoides_tornieri_files/Proehl,%20territorial%20behavior%20in%20dendrobatid%20frogs.pdf 


For those that have a copy, I also suggest checking out the diagrams of the courtship rituals in Terrarium Animals by Elke Zimmerman, TFH Publications.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Given that dendrobatids are known to defend egg and tadpole deposition sites and that territorial actions are known to be triggered when a frog can see a conspecific that is behaving like an adult (and showing territorial displays qualifys), and it is stretching the idea that the juveniles would come out of the water in unoccupied territory.. (particularly when some species can defend an area as large as 81 square meters under certain conditions)... and that juveniles would have a hard time defending against an adult that is already occupying the territory, it seems pretty counter to survivial to have immature animals engaging in territorial displays that would get the snot kicked out of them by an adult of the same species.
> 
> There is a fair bit of literature on this topic and this is a decent start http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0502587/Nectophrynoides_tornieri_files/Proehl,%20territorial%20behavior%20in%20dendrobatid%20frogs.pdf
> 
> ...


i meant that the tads come out of the water IN an occupied area but then at the juvenial stage migrate TO an unoccupied area,sorry for the confusion


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendroguy said:


> i meant that the tads come out of the water IN an occupied area but then at the juvenial stage migrate TO an unoccupied area,sorry for the confusion


 
How are the metamorphs going to come out of the water in an unoccupied area? In this scenario.. the areas around the water would either be unsuitable for the frogs or already claimed, so when the metamorphs emerged they would get the stuffings beaten out of them until they have been able to migrate (potentially a large distance) out of all of the claimed territories or end up in a population sink and probably die.... This is not a favorable scenario as it is going to increase mortality and the opposite is going to be heavily favored evolutionarly..


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Could it be something as simple as this... Frogs do not have an elaborate spoken language. They are able to communicate through posture, action,and calling. It is up to interpretation what these all mean, but these are the limitations. I am sure there are nuances of frog behavior we miss, but are forms of communication.

JBear


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Given that dendrobatids are known to defend egg and tadpole deposition sites and that territorial actions are known to be triggered when a frog can see a conspecific that is behaving like an adult (and showing territorial displays qualifys), and it is stretching the idea that the juveniles would come out of the water in unoccupied territory.. (particularly when some species can defend an area as large as 81 square meters under certain conditions)... and that juveniles would have a hard time defending against an adult that is already occupying the territory, *it seems pretty counter to survivial to have immature animals engaging in territorial displays that would get the snot kicked out of them by an adult of the same species.*
> 
> There is a fair bit of literature on this topic and this is a decent start http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0502587/Nectophrynoides_tornieri_files/Proehl,%20territorial%20behavior%20in%20dendrobatid%20frogs.pdf
> 
> ...


But it happens...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sigh.... do you see the differences in the habitat requirements? In your example you are attempting to compare an animal that is adapted to to an enviroment in which the resources (food, water and shelter) are very patchily distributed requiring a defense against all competitors as any decrease (even by juveniles) in resources can result in non-viability. This is very different than that of dendrobatid frogs which do not show a territorial defense for food, water or shelter. Dendrobatids defend calling, egg and tadpole deposition sites...there is no need to defend food or water resources due to the extreme prevelence of prey items and the frogs ability to absorb water from damp surfaces including soils... this is a very different dynamic than that of the chameleon. Dendrobatids may also exhibit mate guarding behavior... but that shouldn't be a concern for a juvenile frogs..

In the example I was debating, an attempt was made to provide a novel explaination for a behavior that is not only contradictory to the known behaviors in other dendrobatids but contradictiory to the life style of the dendrobatid frogs.... I have been questioning that novel description.. as juvenile dendrobatids have no need to engage in terrotorial displays as they do not need calling, egg or tadpole deposition sites or engage in mate guarding...

There is already too much voodoo going on with dart frogs without adding to the rituals..


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

jbherpin said:


> Could it be something as simple as this... Frogs do not have an elaborate spoken language. They are able to communicate through posture, action,and calling. It is up to interpretation what these all mean, but these are the limitations. I am sure there are nuances of frog behavior we miss, but are forms of communication.
> 
> JBear


so could the juvenials just be communicating?


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Ed said:


> Sigh.... do you see the differences in the habitat requirements? In your example you are attempting to compare an animal that is adapted to to an enviroment in which the resources (food, water and shelter) are very patchily distributed requiring a defense against all competitors as any decrease (even by juveniles) in resources can result in non-viability. This is very different than that of dendrobatid frogs which do not show a territorial defense for food, water or shelter. Dendrobatids defend calling, egg and tadpole deposition sites...there is no need to defend food or water resources due to the extreme prevelence of prey items and the frogs ability to absorb water from damp surfaces including soils... this is a very different dynamic than that of the chameleon. Dendrobatids may also exhibit mate guarding behavior... but that shouldn't be a concern for a juvenile frogs..
> 
> In the example I was debating, an attempt was made to provide a novel explaination for a behavior that is not only contradictory to the known behaviors in other dendrobatids but contradictiory to the life style of the dendrobatid frogs.... I have been questioning that novel description.. as juvenile dendrobatids have no need to engage in terrotorial displays as they do not need calling, egg or tadpole deposition sites or engage in mate guarding...
> 
> There is already too much voodoo going on with dart frogs without adding to the rituals..


No, I think what you are saying is very valid. It just reminded me of that video. I understand the dynamic there is very different. No voodoo here, just a funny video.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendroguy said:


> so could the juvenials just be communicating?


 
See my comments above...


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## Finchfrogs15 (Apr 28, 2011)

one of my male leucs was doing this "dance" today. it is about 6 months old and it just started to call about a week ago. I dont know why he is calling already but im thinking this dance thing is territorial. I have 4 leucs and 2 of them started calling already. way too immature to be trying to get a females attention.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

Finchfrogs15 said:


> one of my male leucs was doing this "dance" today. it is about 6 months old and it just started to call about a week ago. I dont know why he is calling already but im thinking this dance thing is territorial. I have 4 leucs and 2 of them started calling already. way too immature to be trying to get a females attention.


Perhaps it is related to the female's pheromones, or an internal hormone change within the frog. Funny.


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