# Population breeding and INIBICO D. imitator



## npaull (May 8, 2005)

There have been several excellent discussions on this board about the importance of population breeding and the potential problems with pointless "line breeding."

I see an instance of what appears to me to be ridiculous subdivision of an importation that warrants addressing before it gets too prominent - the division of recent INIBICO D. imitator importations into a "yellow" and "green" morph. 

What information I have read (and it may not be all that is available) indicates that they are collected from the same location. People with on-the-ground experience also have indicated that they are from the same location.

It would therefore seem to stretch the imagination that these sympatric forms represent anything other than random variation. I worry about isolating these into lines, though we are already seeing it happen with different prices. I can already imagine "don't mix" zealousness expanding to encompass this intrapopulational variation...

Thoughts? Anyone know for sure that I am wrong and that these are geographically distinct?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

It`s the same problem w/ the super blue/turqnbrnz and the blue and red/blue escudos. The difference in appearance warrants different price or you end up w/ all the red escudos not selling or the turqnbrnz not selling and a wait list for the super blues. I don`t have an answer but it is a problem w/ any variable morphs. The new lowland fants also. If most people want the yellow banded form and noone wants the white form we loose the variation in the captive population.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

npaull said:


> Thoughts? Anyone know for sure that I am wrong and that these are geographically distinct?


My only thought is that I agree with you 100% If we want to maintain wild type frogs into the future, then we need to learn to embrace the natural variability in their populations. There is a very, very, thin line between "not mixing" and selective breeding.

The other comment I will make is that there is this idea that the frogs can be re-mixed later if needed. This is only partially true. Maintaining wild type populations means trying to maintain gene frequencies similar to those found in the wild. This is easy to do if we identify our founding stock and try to have each founder contribute about the same proportion of offspring to the next generation of breeders. But if you selectively breen the animals by segregating by morph, you completely skew the natural gene frequencies in the captive population. So although it is possible to reintroduce lost genes back to the population after selective breeding, it will usually be impossible to actually get the gene frequencies back to something that is representative of wild popualations.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> t`s the same problem w/ the super blue/turqnbrnz and the blue and red/blue escudos. The difference in appearance warrants different price or you end up w/ all the red escudos not selling or the turqnbrnz not selling and a wait list for the super blues. I don`t have an answer but it is a problem w/ any variable morphs. The new lowland fants also. If most people want the yellow banded form and noone wants the white form we loose the variation in the captive population.


At a basic level, the only/most important thing we can do about breeding for preference is to make sure we don't *discourage* or condemn mixing of different variations when we know they are sympatric. I agree with you that it may be impossible to stop someone from buying four frogs of only one variation, but when someone comes along who wants both, it should be encouraged. I guess what I'm saying is we need to keep the idea of sympatry alive in our collective conscience, where applicable. THis is particularly true for the casual hobbyist. Efforts such as ASN will hopefully help maintain larger populations of established, interbreeding, population-based pedigree.

In some ways, I could see this being a fallout of over-zealous use of the "don't mix" harangue. Don't get me wrong - I don't think mixing morphs with known geographic separation is a good thing. But this general principle seems to have mutated (no pun intended) into a fear of housing in the same tank any two frogs that look even slightly different. 

Another example of this is may be "standard imitator" already established in the hobby. People talk about different behaviors and slightly different shades of leg color, but I am extremely skeptical that these are actually from different founding populations. A more likely explanation (to me, anyway) is that line breeding has established these minute differences. It's not too hard to believe given that we're already seeing this kind of separation starting with the INIBICO imports. To ask a variation of the above question, is there any evidence whatsoever that Sens line and Saurian line imitators are actually from different stock? I don't know one way or the other, but I suspect there isn't. I'll be embarrassed if there is.

I think it's a really important concept that doesn't get enough attention. We need as much attention paid to needless subdivision as we do to inappropriate mixing.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Then why are they being divided and sold as such.If in fact they are from the exact same location that would be wrong wouldn't it.
I am talking about the imi's


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

trow said:


> Then why are they being divided and sold as such.If in fact they are from the exact same location that would be wrong wouldn't it.
> I am talking about the imi's


It is wrong, in my opinion. It's being done because it can be done.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

These kinda thing's are what will drive the new wave of greed in our hobby's.I assume that some people are doing this with good intension's just possibly bad result's further down the road.


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

npaull said:


> > To ask a variation of the above question, is there any evidence whatsoever that Sens line and Saurian line imitators are actually from different stock? I don't know one way or the other, but I suspect there isn't. I'll be embarrassed if there is.
> > .


Depends on what you mean by "stock".

The lineage I was given when I got my imi from patrick is that they, for the most part, are based on Kelly lines...I'd have to look up which, but I think I remember one was a Result of a Kelly line imi crossed with one from a zoo, one was from Tom Horn, and someone else...I can look it up in my records if you'd like the exacts, but I'm pretty sure the Sens line is not part of Patricks lines.

So then am I saying the Sens are different...I don't know firsthand, I didn't collect them in the wild to be exported, I didn't import them...I'm just going by what I have read from well respected froggers.

Not to say because they are respected they can't be wrong...

Most that breed the Sens line say they should not be mixed with the Kelly line...being that the Nabors lines are for the most part Kelly lines, I would say they should also not be mixed with Sens lines.

Everyone and their brother (I think) will agree that the older lines should not be mixed with the new imports...

So then, if you are just going to start calling them all "nominat" imitator, and interbreed everything that has already been here a while...why not also breed the Inibco "green" or "yellow" with the Kelly and Sens lines?

Maybee we should consider breeding the new stuff with the old...my Nabors line imi look about identical to the "yellows" I have.

Not suggesting anyone do so, just said that to make a point, and looks aren't everything.


Long story short, I don't have an answer to the Q, but these are some of my thoughts.


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## ETwomey (Jul 22, 2004)

> So then, if you are just going to start calling them all "nominat" imitator, and interbreed everything that has already been here a while...why not also breed the Inibco "green" or "yellow" with the Kelly and Sens lines?


I can pretty much guarantee that all the nominat imitator were collected between km. 30 and km. 36 on the Tarapoto-Yurimaguas road. So for me, I would take a Kelly imitator, a Sens imitator, one each of these new INIBICO morphs, and throw them in a big tank together.

-Evan


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I was told that these species will live in a range and that within these ranges occur areas where a certain color morph will predominate. Do all colors exist where one is dominant, or are there integrades where one color goes into another? All interesting and valid but what to do until we know for sure, put the yellow with yellow and the greens together??? I would hate to destroy natural variability or mix when not appropriate.
And are the circumstances for Imitator the same for Variabilis, I would assume so.
I have a group of the yellow Variabilis and would not mix them with the blue leg or standard Variabilis.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

Now I know why I don't work with imi's it's bad enough with pumilio this would just push me over the edge.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> I can pretty much guarantee that all the nominat imitator were collected between km. 30 and km. 36 on the Tarapoto-Yurimaguas road. So for me, I would take a Kelly imitator, a Sens imitator, one each of these new INIBICO morphs, and throw them in a big tank together.
> 
> -Evan


MODS - Can we post this to the imitator caresheet? Maybe make it a flashing banner at the top of the main page? (I'm serious about the caresheet bit...)

I think this is a very profound statement from one of the individuals most qualified to make it on Earth, and really stabs in the heart a much-hyped paranoia about "morph mixing," which, (in my opinion now) has metastasized beyond its important original intent.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

In the interest of giving credit where credit is due, I'd like to applaud Sean Stewart for listing both the yellow and green varieties of INIBICO imitator as the same frog in the most recent classified post.


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## trow (Aug 25, 2005)

I agree. 8)


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## SeaDuck (Nov 8, 2006)

It should also be noted that the Cainarachi Valley Dendrobates variabilis should not be separated into morphs. They are a grab bag of wonderful color and pattern variation. I would hope they stay that way in the hobby. Robert


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