# Bean beetle/weeville shipping?



## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

We've noticed a vendor recently started shipping bean beetle cultures, stating they have acquired the proper permits to do so. Curius how they handle shipping, and if anyone has had them shipped in winter without overnight shipping? Not specifically "the" vendor, just in general. Are they small enough for Pumilio to take? (although more interested in feeding our Tincs and Teribilis with them).


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Dunno about permits, but the Beatles are pretty big by comparison to other feeders. Tincs and large frogs think they're great, I personally don't know if I'd give them to pumilios frequently. 



There super clean to culture though. I love them. 


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
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## hun73r (Jul 1, 2013)

They are easy to culture and very clean as has been stated. The smaller pums will probably not eat them as they are fairly large. I have added a pic for you with a size comparison to a penny.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

They're too big for my thumbnails to show any interest, but Phyllobates hit them like a train.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Sounds like the perfect food supplement for our Tincs and Mints. Can they fly? Anyone experienced any "infestation", getting into food?


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> Sounds like the perfect food supplement for our Tincs and Mints. Can they fly? Anyone experienced any "infestation", getting into food?


Assuming that they are the typical _Callosobruchus maculatus_ beetle, they have a limited potential diet, and will only utilize a few bean species. Since I rarely keep black eyed peas, mung, or adzuki beans around the house, I have never seen them in my cupboard, but I HAVE seen them get past a twist-tie into the excess beans that I store to start new cultures. They are fairly strong for their size, and will squeeze through anything that they can force.

Edit: I have seen a few fly for short distances, but it is very rare.


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## toostrange (Sep 19, 2013)

Seems the only beans that people are having any luck with are Black eyed peas, mung beans, and adzuki. So I wouldn't think you would have to work to much about an infestation. I've been using them for a little over a year. I have way more wandering fruit flys, don't really remember seeing one outside the frog room.


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Doubtful the APHIS permitting is done lawfully, as both the shipper and receiver must have the permit.
Here are a couple threads discussing this issue.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/84688-bean-beetles-question-all.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/88580-confused-over-shipping-bean-beetles.html

Adults (actual beetles) shouldn't be able to infest anything other than by laying eggs, since they do not have mouth parts designed for chewing. They only live as a beetle for about 10 days.


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## medusa (Oct 30, 2011)

Can you tell us who this vendor is? Certainly not me BTW, but it looks like I am the only one with bean beetles listed in the marketplace at the moment. I don't want anyone the make the assumption that it's me LOL. I just made a few extra and though I would pass them along. But doesn't seem worth it if it means undies in a bunch.

Reef_Haven, thanks for linking to the previous thread on the subject.
If they are APHIS controlled, then yes both supplier AND receiver would need a permit, only granted to inspected facilities with double containment, disposal protocol, a lot of other details etc. A supplier simply having one means nothing. Shipping to someone without a permit is a quick way to loose your permit. I can't imagine anyone risking their permit after all the headache to get it. I know this because I used to work with a large insect collection at an APHIS regulated facility. 

Too bad though. As others have said, they are a great food.


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## Gary_Whitmore (Aug 18, 2014)

I have two cultures of my own and trying to get them going and will try to sell them when I get more


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## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

Gary_Whitmore said:


> I have two cultures of my own and trying to get them going and will try to sell them when I get more


That would be perfectly fine, within your own state. I sell both bean beetle and termite cultures at Repticon in my own state. Never had an issue. I just wouldn't consider shipping them across state lines.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

One thing is that us mail isn't inspected unless it's to Hawaii and even then it's a limited amount. The reason most new rare plants make it into the country is from, well smuggling since only 10% or less of the incoming package bins are able to be selected at random for search. I'm not condoning it, just stating that it happens in large numbers all around us, just look at eBay and the numbers are staggering. 

If you live in a bean growing area I would suggest not cultivating them and using good judgement as ot is a pretty bad pest in the south but for most people that is not the case. It has become less of an issue since the use of parasitic wasps started being deployed and it has helped dramatically. It's native to Mexico and has been established in the bean industry so it's already out and spread so it's kind of a mute point now. 

Japanese beetles are found in Oregon and Washington every year at bait stations and in the days before checking were brought in in droves but something here keeps them from getting a foothold. I always wonder what it is that is keeping them at bay here o the West coast but something is as I know many well know Nurserymen that remember them coming in on shipment in the 60's all the time but you never find them except at the usda port bait sites. Sounds like a fun dissertation topic for someone.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Mexican jumping beans might be next on the list, but since it's Mexico's 5 largest export we will see if that happens. Unlikely with that much cash involved even with the possibility of infestations if they found a new host plant.


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## Gary_Whitmore (Aug 18, 2014)

I don't think it would be a problem but not for sure


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I don't think you would need to worry about it. Your not supposed to do a lot of things concerning bugs and plants but most of us still do it.


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## Gary_Whitmore (Aug 18, 2014)

As soon as I get enough I will be selling and shipping so we will now I currently selling ship dubia roaches and have no problem


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Only Florida, Hawaii and i believe a northern state bans roaches. Fruit flies are shipped into California and I'm sure technically that is a big no, no so most things are just government bureaucracy at work "pay me and I will give you a paper and it's ok". In the nursery industry in Oregon you have to have the crop certified California brown snail free when bringing in crops from California; however, we have huge populations that have been living and breeding here for so long it makes it the dumbest thing there is. Makes them look pretty foolish to most people, making us certify we aren't bring something in that we already have in our yards already lol.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

One of the ironies of bean beetles is that people claim you cannot ship them across state line and I don't even though tons of people ask me for them (ironic given all the crap I have bean beetles seem to be the only thing anyone wants). But vendors that goto shows carry them across state lines all the time and sell them publicly. One has to wonder what anyone gains by not allowing people to ship them when vendors take them to shows and sell them. They are clearly spread across the whole country in this hobby. 

They are one of the best feeders out there because they add variety to your frogs diet and take so little work. Beans is all you need, pour them into a container done. Every dart frogger should have them if they have larger species.

That said they definitely are a little harder to down, they have spikes and a hard exo skeleton and I definitely see my frogs react a little more to them than other feeders. I wouldn't try to feed these to something as small as pumilio really. At the end of a culture they can be smaller though just like flies if you want to pick them out.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

It is just bureaucracy no one wins they try to stop something that is already here and really in time would have been here anyway as Mexico is connected to us. I think it's all crap no shipping to and from Canada, well hello Agriculture ministry and USDA we are one continent not some separate island. I'm sure all the bugs and birds read all those policies and wash their feet and clear out the bugs or other pests before flying over the border. Gotta love government policy.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

I want to caution anyone from taking the advice planted-tank-guy is saying about smuggling plants illegally via the post. It has become a major issue and the authorities are cracking down. Fines can range from 10k and higher with jail time. 

Especially since you're doing this knowingly, not in ignorance. 

I've heard through the grapevine that they're starting to take this stuff seriously now. There have been people being fined and other things. They started cracking down on this and coral frags coming in illegally. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Please don't mince my words, I quote what I said below, I said you probably have nothing to worry about as us mail is not searched maybe in AZ they have the resources to do that. I said it happens all the time and I would bet money not every plant in most of our collections is of legal orgin, with or without your knowledge. 
What I wrote is below and I don't condone it but it happens, so people need to use judgment as I said. 

The reason most new rare plants make it into the country is from, well smuggling since only 10% or less of the incoming package bins are able to be selected at random for search. I'm not condoning it, just stating that it happens in large numbers all around us, just look at eBay and the numbers are staggering. 

If you live in a bean growing area I would suggest not cultivating them and using good judgement


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I know I could start a large list of things that I see for sale that I know are brought in or where brought in illegally. I will not knowingly buy plants that have been smuggled and I have my permits to import and export and I pay my fees but I still think it's bureaucratic garbage for the most part. Its ok to bulldoze a field of wild Cypripedium but you cannot collect them for resale to even save them. Many laws have good intentions but are bad policy in practice. As for the large vendors, the likelihood of those vendors being caught is very, very low and they know it, so they do it.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Words were certainly not minced nor did I quote you. 

Suggesting it's acceptable behavior is the problem. 

These instances were not in AZ. I have been in the planted aquarium world for a decade now. There is a change in response and an increase in cracking things down. In part because domestic farms can't compete as well. 

Buying plants from Anywhere outside the your country without proper documents is just a bad idea. 

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

We were talking in the states and about the Beatles in my last comments not about plants. Bringing in a plant or bug from California to AZ is smuggling without a permit even though it's in the us. That is were I mentioned smuggling and if I wrote something in a matter that was able to be read wrong I apologize. 

I stand with my I don't condone or participate in the purchase of illegal items. I will not purchase Bucephelandra unless, I know the orgin and who brought it in either as I don't want them go be stripped from Borneo as I want to see them in all their glory. Aquarium plants are the worst for smuggling problems and I know the problem. I won't own a bean beatle in Oregon as I'm in a farm area and it's not worth the risk to me. I uphold my permits and abide by my quarantine agreement. I suggest everyone does but I know not everyone does so I said people should use good judgement beyond the bad judgment of bringing in whatever they bring in even if it's not yet listed.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I apologize Andrew and thank you for letting me clarify what I actually mean rather than my poor attempt of saying some government policy is just a bit badly written. I suppose that is what I was trying to say, obviously very poorly.
Sometimes I think faster than my brain will process and poo falls out so again my apologies.


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Just because this subject has come up I am actually curious about the specific laws regarding bean beetles. Mostly I want to know if what vendors do by selling bean beetles at shows in states they are not based out of is legal or not. Does their driving bean beetles across state lines constitute breaking the law?


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

I would also like to add to anyone that does buy a plant from overseas even on ebay if it's on Cites lists I guarantee you will have federal officers at your doorstep if they find your package. Cites listed items are internationally protected and they don't just shake a finger at you for it like they might for a few non protected plants. You will also be put on a watch list for 5 years and they will stop you at the airport even. I have a friend who learned that when they forgot they had oranges in their car on there way back from Canada they got hit with a 300.00 fine and added to the usda watch list for 5 years for that mistake.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Yes, transportation of any agricultural pest across state lines is a crime.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Yes. AZ is a quarantine state. I learned this somewhat recently. With that said I have an account with a nursery in AZ that is a approved facility. So I'm going through them. 

It's become A huge pain in the ass. Because now I know, plants in this hobby from another hobbyist I need to figure out a way to legally receive them. 

So far I haven't found a simple solution except to give a plant list to my nursery and them call around. 

Ps. I did understand what you meant, yet it's the Internet, and especially with young people reading the forums, it could have been bad. 

All that said, the chance for example if you were to send me clippings, then I place them in my tanks, which are sealed and nonvented acrylic cubes, is pretty much guaranteed to have no contamination. Yet, I can't say I'd do it as of now with my understanding of the rules. 

I wrote this bit in my first response, but deleted it via edit because it was a bit too specific. 

I bought my bean Beatles at a local shop, so I'm good there. The other microfauna we use are composters so it seems they're exempt. 


It's a nightmare. 
Ironically, when I traveled to Singapore and back, there were no checks and I had a sandwich and fruit and things in my bag that by that time I had forgotten about. I could've had a salad of all types of exotic plants and no one would've noticed. (For the record, it was from Starbucks, nothing exotic there)

-Andrew

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Wow, didnt anticipate how this thread would TAKE OFF, lol. Anyhow, we recieved our culture. Initially, didnt appear to be alot of beetles in there, but after picking through, found enough to start 4 FF sized cultures on black eyed peas. So were off and running. Dont want to contaminate this thread, so If anyone wants to know who the vendor is, please, dont hesitate to contact us, but a quick google search should identify them.

Krissy and Chris


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## Spaff (Jan 8, 2011)

Folks, please watch what you advocate in your posts here. Shipping/having these things shipped to you without knowledge of the regulations is one thing. Saying "oh yeah, go ahead and do it. You won't get caught..." is another. Both break the laws, one brings much more attention to you. 

Do you think that people who work in state/federal ag, wildlife, pest regulatory agencies do not read these sites? I guarantee that there are both members and lurkers from these industries on this site right now.

My advice...find a local seller who has these and pick them up there. As far as selling, do it among your local buddies, Repticons, etc. Making $5 selling a big culture across lines isn't worth fines or jail time.


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## planted-tnk-guy (Mar 9, 2014)

Not knowing isn't a defense of breaking a law either you could still potentially be fined. Just check bags of cheap dry black Eyed Peas from a grundy old nasty market (you know the ones) look for ones that have dead larva in the bag  and the same goes with rice flour beetles. I guarantee we have all eaten at least a few of each.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Hey, hope this isn't derailing the thread, but does anyone feed rice flour beetles? Do frogs like em? How do they compare in size to FFs and bean beetles?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

After seeing a lot of speculation surrounding the sale of bean beetles, I thought I'd chime in. We do have the proper permits in place to ship bean beetles across state lines. To do this, it took a lot of time (over a year after many rejected applications for permits). We also were visited by a couple of USDA agents whom inspected our facility. Looking back at the paperwork, in all it's been about a 4 year process including rejected application attempts.

In addition to getting the USDA permit, we also had to contact each state we wanted to ship the insects to. This was a lengthy process. I've attached a copy of our license below. This is why we do not ship to Hawaii, Wisconsin, and Utah - based on state law, it is illegal to ship bean beetles to those states. We are required to include a state-specific permit (either paper copy or electronically) to each customer who purchases regulated insects. This protects us, as well as the customer. This permit allows the individual to keep the regulated insects in state, but does not cover them shipping the insects across state lines.

The USDA also required that we include a document informing the end recipient how to properly dispose/rehome bean beetles and associated materials. We took this a step further and rewrote it, so that it is applicable to all feeder insects and pets (this is a part of responsible pet keeping, especially with the threat of emergent exotic diseases). Yet another document that had to be approved by the USDA, but it was.

Transporting bean beetles across state lines without a permit is illegal. Mailing bean beetles across state lines without a permit is illegal. So, if a vendor without permits takes bean beetles to a show in another state, they are breaking federal law. If a person (business, hobbyist, whatever) mails a bean beetle culture to another state without proper permits, they are breaking federal law. People do this all the time, but we were told by the USDA that they would be stepping up enforcement. 

Non-plant pests, such as fruit flies, springtails, isopods, etc are not regulated by the USDA, and as such do not require permits. The banded crickets we sell require permits, as well.

At this time, we are the only pet business that has the proper permits in place with the USDA to ship bean beetles across state lines, or to transport them to shows in other states.


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

joshsfrogs said:


> After seeing a lot of speculation surrounding the sale of bean beetles, I thought I'd chime in.



This is excellent to know. I was wondering about that, since you guys have it on your home page now!

Do you know if they have any plans to attempt to regulate the stuff you listed that we use hat are not at the moment?

-Andrew


Smiling when unhappy makes you happier. 
Transcribed via Siri.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

I can't really say, but I got the impression they were going to be stepping up enforcement on what is already regulated, more than worrying about what currently isn't. The inspectors that visited our facility were not at all interested in flies, springtails, or isopods. We will still be including tips for proper disposal with all live insects we sell, as we feel it is responsible.


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