# Orchid peoplePAR needed to grow orchids



## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I'm building a large Paludarium with lots of branches for epiphyte orchids to grow on. I have been using growing needs from Andy's orchids website. His light requirements for orchids are all in foot candles & light (looking at LEDs) use PAR readings to measure there out put. 

So my question is. If a orchid needs a very bright light 2500-3500 foot candles of sun light, what amount of PAR of LEDs or T5s would that be? 

I have been told manufactured lights may have a very high FC & very low PAR & vice versa, so a standard conversion formula really doesn't work


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Honestly, I love the enthusiasm, but think youre overthinking the lighting requirements. 

Tell me what orchids youre looking at, and Ill give you an idea of how much lighting to use. 

2500-3500 FOOT CANDLES tells me youre looking at HIGH LIGHT loving orchids. Perhaps smaller Dendrobiums or Cattleyas.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Knowing the exact dimensions of the tank would be helpful too. One lighting setup may give you 100 par at 12 inches... but if the tanks is 40 inches high you'll have a lot less PAR at floor level so some plants may not do well there. So where you plant things in the vivarium will be important too.

It may be difficult to get high PAR at floor level without cooking everything at the top, so plant high light stuff near the top and lower light stuff near the bottom.

Need more info basically.


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I am a commercial photographer so I understand how light falls off the farther it is from the source. This question is less about what type or how much light do I need for this tank but more about a light measurement in Par that a HIGH LIGHT loving orchid would need. 

Since you ask, the tank is 60X30X48" tall. Because light falls off less proportionally the farther it is from the source, I have the lights about a foot above the top of the tank. Also the first several inches of the tank will be more for a basking area for lizards & will not be misted much if any. So the first orchids will be 18" or so from the lights & the last ones about 40" from the lights. I have access to a PAR meter from my days in reef tanks & will work out what orchids would be happy in which places once I get the highest level established.

I could get a foot candle meter & a PAR meter & go out & find a spot in sun light that has 3500 foot-candle & then take a PAR reading & go by that. From what I have read since the light in a green house or under a tree changes from day to day & minute to minute, growing orchids under lights that are at a constant level they can have some what lower levels than the highest level under sun light.

As for which orchids I'm interested in isn't really a good gauge to go by because that may not be what I will find or be able to afford. I am sure I would like to be able to keep high light loving plants when I find some nice ones.

I guess over thinking a thing is just my way of being sure I will have what is needed when the thing is done. Not wanting to bother every one with all these variables is why I only ask what amount of PAR would keep a high light loving orchid happy?

So with all that, what do you think?


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You don't really need to worry about PAR in terrariums/vivariums. The light source isn't traveling through a medium where different wavelengths get absorbed differently (such as in water in aquariums), so you dont need to worry about the PAR.

As such, you wont really find "PAR levels" for orchid culture. You'll usually find a very unscientific brightness level such as "indirect sunlight" or "bright shade". Andy's is pretty helpful because he actually give you the light levels in LUX/FC.

Here's a website that's useful in describing greenhouse light levels in FC. It even tells you how to figure it out with your camera.
Greenhouse Light Levels

This article describes how to convert LUX to PAR. It gives you the equation, so you could do the reverse calculation if you wanted also
Product Review: Lighting for Reef Aquaria: Tips on Taking Light Measurements — Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Lastly, LUX/FC light meters are pretty cheap -- you could get one for less that $20 if you wanted to
Amazon.com: HDE Lx 1010B 50000 Lux LCD Display Digital Luxmeter Light Meter: Camera & Photo


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

hypostatic said:


> You don't really need to worry about PAR in terrariums/vivariums. The light source isn't traveling through a medium where different wavelengths get absorbed differently (such as in water in aquariums), so you dont need to worry about the PAR.
> 
> As such, you wont really find "PAR levels" for orchid culture. You'll usually find a very unscientific brightness level such as "indirect sunlight" or "bright shade". Andy's is pretty helpful because he actually give you the light levels in LUX/FC.
> 
> ...


PAR still matters, at the depths of most aquariums PAR is not changing because of water its changing for the same reason it disperses from any light source, it is spreading out. 

The real answer is the PDF world just doesn't pay much attention to PAR because our main concern is the frogs not the plants. We just go low tech and rule of thumb all the time so you are unlikely to get an answer here. It is not because PAR is not important it is because no one seems to have the equipment or care. In fact the main lights used by the PDF community do not even bother to list Lumens or any important measure of light output. So its not surprising that no one here knows because even the light makers don't care.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

No, i stand by my ground that PAR doesn't matter much. Most orchid growers and hobbyists do not make use of PAR readings. For example, last week i went to an orchid show, and I asked J&L Orchids what lighting should certain orchids get. They said the usual "shade", "bright", etc. And when I asked what it was in lumens/LUX/FC they said that they don't really measure light levels. It's not widely done for that fact that PAR is not necessary. Keep in mind also, that there are lots of people on this board that also grow orchids as a hobby...

I'm not saying that no one should take PAR readings, and that it's stupid to do so. I'm saying that in order to grow orchids and keep them healthy, you do not need to know the PAR. If you want to build a super complex LED array and you're worried about the fact that certain colors are throwing off your PAR spectra, and you're also worried about color mixing/balance and the optimal growth of the plants, then getting a PAR meter and knowing the readings could be useful. But if you're just getting normal daylight lights and you're worried about whether your orchids are getting enough light, then knowing the PAR is not necessary.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fullmonti said:


> I am a commercial photographer so I understand how light falls off the farther it is from the source. This question is less about what type or how much light do I need for this tank but more about a light measurement in Par that a HIGH LIGHT loving orchid would need.
> 
> Since you ask, the tank is 60X30X48" tall. Because light falls off less proportionally the farther it is from the source, I have the lights about a foot above the top of the tank. Also the first several inches of the tank will be more for a basking area for lizards & will not be misted much if any. So the first orchids will be 18" or so from the lights & the last ones about 40" from the lights. I have access to a PAR meter from my days in reef tanks & will work out what orchids would be happy in which places once I get the highest level established.
> 
> ...


This only goes to 30" and is for corals, but it might give you something to go off of...
Aqualight LED | Aquatic Lighting From Coralife Marine & Freshwater Aquarium Supplies


This may be more useful, PAR ratings for aquatic freshwater plants...
fresh water plant PAR levels - Seneye

I've grown some of the plants on that list semi aquatically or even terrestrially, so kinda comparing how they did vs standard terrestrial plants and my lighting level... Ballpark I'd say you'd want at least 50 Par at the floor, but 75+ might be better 

This section of a paper or something I found has a lot of info that might be useful to you...
http://www.bryoecol.mtu.edu/chapters/9-1LightShade.pdf

*Ok now here is how I would do it... (Because I honestly have no idea how to light at tank working off of PAR levels, but I can guestimate and eyeball it and generally get pretty close to where I need to be to grow what I want to grow in my vivs)*

I use the watts per gallon guidelines for vivs made in most standard sized aquariums for my starting place. Seems like for LED in tanks up to 24" tall that works out to be a minimum of .5 watts per gal for very short tanks, .75 for for tanks up to 1.5 feet, and 1 watts per gallon for tanks up to 30" and probably about 2 (maybe up to 3) watts per gallon for tanks 4 feet tall (Depending on LED types, and lenses). 

For fluorescent lighting lighting I find 1.5-3.5 watts per gallon for tanks up to 24" tall seems to work... So a 4 ft tank may need 4-5.5 maybe even 6 watts per gal  I've never lit a tank that tall so I'm not sure. I've never worked with metal halide so I can't say there either. And HO T-5 may knock the watts per gal you need down a bit.

So Given the height of your tank If I was going to go LED, I'd be looking for at least 350 watts of LED lighting probably. That would be about 1 watt per gallon and most LED fixtures that size will likely use 1-3 watt LEDs with lenses that focus the light a bit more, and LED's tend to be a more focused directional light then fluorescent anyways so with the extra focus from optics you can get away with much less watts per gallon, but cost of LED lighting is pretty high still. *I'd probably anticipate needing more like 400-500 watts of full spectrum led lighting though. *

Probably looking at needing 700-1000+ watts of lighting with flourescent lights... which is going to be a lot of heat coming off the top of that tank. 

I don't know much about metal halides but my guess is your either gonna want to go LED, or Metal halide rather then trying t-5's. Probably high powered LED spot lights in cheap dome fixtures would be the most cost effective way to light something that tall and deep. I don't know maybe metal halide spots, or even incandescent spots would be cheaper if you use cheap dome fixtures.

Build my LED might be the way to go here. (or buy several cheap off brand fixtures from someone like topdogsellers on ebay)
Freshwater - Build My LED, LLC

You could have them custom make you 2 60" fixtures.. say one in 6300k, and one in 5000K.

I went through their build a fixture thing for XP lights and got $395 for 60" fixture with 60 degree leds, for 270 gallon tank (you may have to call to custom order), in "High light level"... They suggest you need 4 fixtures, so almost $1200. *What you might be able to do though is have one fixture with really really focused leds that punch through down to the floor, and then another fixture with wider angle lenses to fill in the back/sides a bit.* Like put the really focused fixture in the very front then a wide one in back if you just do 2... If you do 3, or 4 fixtures lined up parallel maybe do 2-4 different beam angles... Like 2 30 degree fixtures in front then a 60 degree and then a 90 degree behind those, or maybe they'll customize the individual led bulbs with optics you specify, so you could have the very outer most leds wide angle but the ones just inside those shoot straight down so you fill the top sides and back, but then start punching through to the floor after that, and let light spill from the punchers fill in the rest ???

Oh here is another PAR chart from them... (I might be wrong but I think you can get away with a bit less PAR for terrestrial plants vs aquatic or corals)


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Oh another option for custom LED fixtures is...
Rapid LED


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Please define bright then hypostatic. Because I don't know what bright means. It is just an adjective, my monitor is bright can I grow orchids with it?


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

Pubfiction said:


> Please define bright then hypostatic. Because I don't know what bright means. It is just an adjective, my monitor is bright can I grow orchids with it?


That is possibly the oddest post I've seen. Hypostatic? I looked it up & the definition didn't help.

Looks like PAR is not used much if any in the vivarium realm. I'll figure something out.

Thanks
Jim


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Pubfiction said:


> Please define bright then hypostatic. Because I don't know what bright means. It is just an adjective, my monitor is bright can I grow orchids with it?


If we are talking about orchids, then "bright" is a condition at the placement of the plant where the light intensity reaches about 1500-3000 FC. Converted to PAR, using the link I provided, the PAR level for that orchid should be around 300-600 µmol·m2·sec. I hope this sufficiently answers your question.

EDIT:

Here would be some other common lighting terms, converted to PAR for your convenience

Full sun: 600-1000 µmol·m2·sec
Shade: 100-500 µmol·m2·sec

If you google the particular species of orchid you are looking for, you'll probably find somewhere the lighting requirement in FC. You can easily convert it to PAR if you wish using the formula on the link I previously provided


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

All of that is well & good. Let me ask the question again or in an other way. Given that the lights in a vivarium are on at the same level all day every day. Assuming the FC guid lines listed for veracious orchids is more or less the brightest part of the day & we all know there are cloudy days, rainy days & shadows that move across any give place though out the day. It has been said that in a vivarium the lighting doesn't need to be as bright, because it is a constant light.

The question then is what is that factor. Is it 10% less, 40% less? I'm fine with it if no one really has that answer. I was only asking so if some one had a good rule of thumb it would save me some trial and error. Which is why boards like this are so very helpful, people sharing their experiences.

Jim


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Usually, if you can find a light level, it will give you a footcandle "range". Lets take Dendrobium kingianum for example.

Andy's Orchids - Orchid Species - Dendrobium - kingianum

The light requirements are listed as "Bright to Full Sun; 2750-3750 Footcandles (midday shade required)"

This means that for optimal growing, you should have it somewhere in the 2750-3750 FC range (550-750 µmol·m2·sec). Since they give you a whole range, you don't need to do percentage of an absolute number.

The "bright to full sun" is for people who are used to growing by eye. So you could grow it outside in full sun, but it would need shade during the midday, since that's the brightest part of the day, and the lighting can be way too strong and might damage the leaves.

Orchid growing is something that requires finesse. You need to be constantly reevaluating the plant and the conditions it's in. Lighting is the least of your worries when dealing with orchids. More important are temperature, air flow, water schedule, humidity, and fertilization schedule.

So to sum it up: place your orchid in a location where it is falling within the FC range. What you should REALLY worry about and monitor are temperature/air flow/water/humidity/fertilization.

I hope this is helpful

EDIT:

I figured i should just post that to go from FC to PAR, either multiply FC by 0.2, or divide FC by 5.
2750*.2 = 550
2750/5 = 550


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

That the temp, humidity, air flow etc needs need to also be met is a given. The thing I'm not getting across is the ratio of PAR to visible light (brightness) which is what FC is measuring, can & does vary wildly from one kind of artificial light to another. LEDs especially vary a great deal depending on what bulbs are use & what part of the spectrum is being produced. 

What we see & what light meters measure is not the same part of the spectrum that plants use for photosynthesis. Par is a measurement of what plants use. This is not a big deal with natural sun light because the conversion formulas are based on sun light
It becomes a big deal with artificial light because the ratio between the two is so variable from one type of light to another.

Could well be orchids are less picky than other things, that is one reason why I ask if any one knew what Par they have had success with. Sorry this has drug out so, I thought I was asking a pretty simple question.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

fullmonti said:


> What we see & what light meters measure is not the same part of the spectrum that plants use for photosynthesis. Par is a measurement of what plants use. This is not a big deal with natural sun light because the conversion formulas are based on sun light
> It becomes a big deal with artificial light because the ratio between the two is so variable from one type of light to another.


You are correct. You should assume the the FC values that are are given are for sunlight, since this is what greenhouses use as their light source. When converting from FC to PAR there are different coefficients depending on the light source -- for this thread I have been using the coefficient for sunlight.

To answer your first question in the OP:


> So my question is. If a orchid needs a very bright light 2500-3500 foot candles of sun light, what amount of PAR of LEDs or T5s would that be?


You would need a PAR of 500-700 µmol·m2·sec.

You know, I might as well recommend you over to Orchid Board. People can get very technical on there about their orchids, and you'll probably find a good amount of people that actually break out the PAR-meter.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fullmonti said:


> All of that is well & good. Let me ask the question again or in an other way. Given that the lights in a vivarium are on at the same level all day every day. Assuming the FC guid lines listed for veracious orchids is more or less the brightest part of the day & we all know there are cloudy days, rainy days & shadows that move across any give place though out the day. It has been said that in a vivarium the lighting doesn't need to be as bright, because it is a constant light.
> 
> The question then is what is that factor. Is it 10% less, 40% less? I'm fine with it if no one really has that answer. I was only asking so if some one had a good rule of thumb it would save me some trial and error. Which is why boards like this are so very helpful, people sharing their experiences.
> 
> Jim


That is very difficult to quantify when dealing with multiple plant varieties and multiple potential light sources with different spectrum outputs, and other variables.

From my experience I would say the fact that our lights can be set to a long daylight period, are full intensity form the moment they come on till they go off (or have very short sunrise/sunset cycles)... Well... it actually doesn't even equal out. Probably we rarely approach the brightness of a partly cloudy day. We're only able to make up the difference because of how close the plants are to the light source, lack of cloud cover, and plant types that don't need full direct sun.

If I had to quantify it I guess I'd say maybe 15% but depending on lighting setup and plant choice, distance from the plants that 15% could go in either direction... Which probably isn't very helpful 

... Most of the plants we grow are ones that are going to be growing in or under a forest canopy and will rarely see full sun all day long, so we kinda luck out there and find we can get away with a lot less light then what full sun would be.



fullmonti said:


> That the temp, humidity, air flow etc needs need to also be met is a given. The thing I'm not getting across is the ratio of PAR to visible light (brightness) which is what FC is measuring, can & does vary wildly from one kind of artificial light to another. LEDs especially vary a great deal depending on what bulbs are use & what part of the spectrum is being produced.
> 
> What we see & what light meters measure is not the same part of the spectrum that plants use for photosynthesis. Par is a measurement of what plants use. This is not a big deal with natural sun light because the conversion formulas are based on sun light
> It becomes a big deal with artificial light because the ratio between the two is so variable from one type of light to another.
> ...


This is true... I mean you can just throw a 50/50 mix of red and blue leds over your plants and hit the sweet spot in spectrums for growth and get away with much less "bright" or intense light. So it boils down to throwing enough wattage (possibly supplemented with optics/beam angles) of 6500K, or a mix of various color temps that produce an aesthetically pleasing light to look at, but also have enough of the growth spectrum to satisfy the plants. 

You can supplement those lights and their spectrum by adding in blue/red leds and then use other colors to tune the apparent color temp so your CRI (color rendering index is high) and the light continues to be aesthetically pleasing even when boosting certain spectrum ranges for plant growth. Basically you've gotta find the balance between what looks good and what works.

One way you could help tune the color spectrum so that it looks good but also gives good growth spectrum is cheap rolls of LED strip lights and led controllers to manipulate the color spectrums some.

Like these...








Amazon.com: Lycheers 16.4ft 5M Waterproof Flexible strip 300leds Color Changing RGB SMD5050 LED Light Strip Kit RGB 5M + 44Key Remote+12V 5A Power Supply: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Once you get a roll you can buy the IR and remote units and a splitter to run several strip lengths cut from the same roll using the same same power adapter, but you'll have to run 2+ strips with a remote and IR receiver for each strip since you can't control the individual led bulbs. Basically you can only set the strip to one color at any given time, plus a flash or sound activated mode. So to do red/blue you'd need one length of strip set to red, and another set to blue. You can also use these on sound controllers/timers as lightning FX, or as part of a dawn/dusk setup

These 133 mode controllers offer a bit more flexibility and certain modes could be adapted to produce cloud cover FX and what not... 








Amazon.com : SUPERNIGHT (TM) Full Kit Waterproof 5M 16.4Ft IC 6803 5050 Dream Magic RGB LED Strip 133 Color Change + RF Remote Controller + 12V 6A Power Supply : Led Lighting : Home Improvement

Anyways I know that stuff isn't exactly on topic but it might aid you in supplementing whatever lighting solution you use to get the best look and most functional growth spectrums, so I thought I'd toss it out there 

In the end you're probably going to have to find a starting point like my earlier post dealing with how much LED wattage you might need for a tank with those dimensions, factor in optics/beam angles, overall spectrum, lumens, PAR estimates and then wing it a bit. Basically though if you can put enough light over it that is overall in the 6500K color range you should be able to grow most anything pretty well... It is just a matter of getting that light down to the floor without cooking everything at the top.

Oh those Led strips can help with that too, because they're bright enough to fill in the areas and light the plants at the very top of the background and sides, allowing your main light sources to be positioned right over the deepest parts of the vivarium (Light spill should take care of the middle/lower side and middle/lower background plants if you've got enough intensity for the floor plants to do well)

So my suggestion is throw at least 1 watt of full spectrum Led lighting per gallon as your starting point, and then go from there. The nice thing about the LED solutions is most of them aren't very wide so you can fit several. So if you find you'll need more light you'll probably have the room to add it, but I don't think you'll find that 1 watt per/gal is to much on this viv given how tall it is, so that is at least a starting point.

Unfortunately you're kinda pioneering new territory here because this just isn't the methodology most of us use to light tanks, and not many people have vivs this large. So maybe you'll be the guy who helps set the standard here  All I can tell you about my methodology is that it seems to work for me and at least get me close to where I need to be and then I have room to tweak things from there. Getting it exactly right on a viv that size, first try right from the start is a tall order.


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I have ask this on the orchid board already. So far with much the same results.

Was really hoping not to be a pioneer on this. So much of vivariums are new to me, time consuming & expensive would have been nice to skip the trial & error part of this one.

500-700 Par is practically speaking unobtainable, hence the trial & error. I will post what happens with all this though. For sure it wont be any time soon. 

Thanks


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

So can I ask you why not just get a light meter and measure the FC/LUX?


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

Sure. I will meter what that is. The issue is that is measuring how bright the visible light is. Not useless info, just not as true an indicator of how much usable light is present. 

As I said, a given artificial light may be very bright in visible light & have much less of the part of the spectrum plants actually use, & vice versa. That's why reef people that use many different kinds of light sources & different spectrums (warmer light produces more growth but corals look better with very very blue light) use Par to see how much usable light is present. From what I know of plant growth above water, the lights that produce the most Par & growth have a lot of extra red. The more red the more growth until it's looks so unnatural to our eye they are generally not used for displays.

I am not a lighting engineer or scientist but have researched this a good bit & have a few years of experience with aquatic plants & coral. The above water part not so much. But to one degree or another I feel sure the Par vs visible light thing still holds true above water.

Hope this whole subject hasn't been irritating to everyone. Maybe it will help bring Par readings into the vivarium world.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Hog's turn--not a physicist, botanist or photographer. Still, I think I can be of help here.

It is true that terms like "bright," "part-shade" are too subkective, but there is a good reason; these mean different things in different places. Full sun in the tropics is much more intense than full sun in temperate regions.

What the OP has not explained, as hypostatic asks, is why the hell is PAR so crucial a concept here? I have never heard of any serious horticulturist even discuss it (and some of these cats _are_ physicists, botanists, photographers!)

The OP mentions lizard--may I ask what kind? I am going to assume tropical anoles and/or day geckos. If I'm even close, let's get busy: 

1) At 48" tall, what you need is penetrating light. HO T5s will work, as will a suspended metal halide. This will give you the intensity;
2) But, as you have lizards, it may be a good bet to go with:
--two suspended 100 W mercury vapor lamps. These provide heat, a broad visible spectrum, as well as uv A &B;
--In addition, at those dimensions, I would use a double HO T5 strip running the length of the tank. That's four bulbs, they will do the trick. It is not difficult to find "daylight" bulbs with a color temp in the 5500-6500 range, with a relatively high CRI (as Dave alluded to, above). 
3) With lizards, you need ventilation;
4) I take it you are not going to provide drastic day/night temperature fluctuations. As such, stay the #@!* away from pleurothallids. What yer lookin for are plants that deal with some heat, ventilation and being danced on.

Neotropical:
Tolumnia (Oncidium)
Encyclias
Sophronitis cernua
some Epidendrums/mini cats

Afrotropical:
several angraecoids, grown lower!

Asia/Oz:
Some warmer growing Dendrobiums
Dockrillia
Sederia 
Phals (grown lower)

5) One thing though: With that kind of light and ventilation, you will need to mist daily.
6) Finally, some do not pay that much attention to light intensity through the day; I do. Do not need a dimmer--you merely need to turn the lights on at different times (to create a dawn/dusk). I bring my tubes on before my heat lamps, and the heat lamps go off first in the evening.

But I must concur with previous posters--there is no tangible need to over-think this. K-I-S-S really applies here. Over-complicate it, and it's a recipe for disappointment. Relax, buddy--it ain't rocket science

Hope this helps.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Pubfiction said:


> PAR still matters, at the depths of most aquariums PAR is not changing because of water its changing for the same reason it disperses from any light source, it is spreading out.
> 
> The real answer is the PDF world just doesn't pay much attention to PAR because our main concern is the frogs not the plants. We just go low tech and rule of thumb all the time so you are unlikely to get an answer here. It is not because PAR is not important it is because no one seems to have the equipment or care. In fact the main lights used by the PDF community do not even bother to list Lumens or any important measure of light output. So its not surprising that no one here knows because even the light makers don't care.


Pub, I must respectfully demur here: If you think we don't care--then you'd be appalled by most serious horticulturists! Most think this all a bunch of (expensive) bullshit, and are perfectly content to stick with combos of cool white / warm white. 

Who actually cares about lighting specs:
--reefers;
--commercial growers (producing flats of geraniums, petunias, peppers, tomatoes, etc
--growers of dope (seriously, much of what we know about this nonsense was pioneered by _High Times_ cats...)

But most serious indoor growers I know go either greenhouse, bright windows, 4 tubes of verilux, etc--they can't be bothered with the latest high tech. The only exception I know are those who, for whatever reason are into true full sun plants--e.g., potted citrus trees, barrel cacti, but have no access to good natural light (e.g. "the new building now blocks my bay window!!!"); these guys will try metal halides--and are often disappointed. There people move, learn to like other plants, or sometimes give up...

Bottom line is, I hear more about lighting here in one week, than in a year of plant society meetings


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

fullmonti said:


> Sure. I will meter what that is. The issue is that is measuring how bright the visible light is. Not useless info, just not as true an indicator of how much usable light is present.
> 
> As I said, a given artificial light may be very bright in visible light & have much less of the part of the spectrum plants actually use, & vice versa. That's why reef people that use many different kinds of light sources & different spectrums (warmer light produces more growth but corals look better with very very blue light) use Par to see how much usable light is present. From what I know of plant growth above water, the lights that produce the most Par & growth have a lot of extra red. The more red the more growth until it's looks so unnatural to our eye they are generally not used for displays.
> 
> ...


I completely understand where you're coming from. I am also involved in the reefing hobby (and I know many froggers are ex/current reefers), so I know how important PAR levels can be in that setting.

I did a search on orchid board and I found this discussion on PAR and lighting sources. Maybe it will be of help to you. Perhaps the people engaging in the discussion might have the answer you want, or you could PM them.
PAR meter - Orchid Board - Most Complete Orchid Forum on the web !

I don't know if this has been asked: what kind of lighting do you intend to use? As in type and colors.

Also, you can get a free light meter app for your smartphone if you search for it. I think it's called light meter free lol


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

fullmonti if you want to get at better information I encourage you to hit up plantedtank.net. There is a guy over there named hoppy and he makes ghetto PAR meters that are very affordable. They also produce alot of numbers for a wide range of fixtures. 

You can also look at reef societies or maybe you know a pot head. 

As you can see here there is resistance and apologists people sort of turn a blind eye to the issue.


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## TerraFerma (Feb 20, 2011)

DIY some CREE XM-L or that new Phillips 12 watt thing. I have no knowledge of anyone running them firsthand on a 48" tall orchid tank. But the things are bright as all get out and can roast corals on a 30" deep tank so I'm reasonably sure those would do the trick. Overbuild you fixture and you can always dim it.


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I do appreciate all the replies (well maybe one or two less than the some others) and suggestions and options offered. I will be checking out the links! But basically I really only ask if anyone knew or had experience with what PAR level would keep a high light loving orchid happy. 

To me at least, it doesn't matter at all how you get to that point. It is simply a target to aim for. All the variables like size & shape of the tank, what type light, how close or far away the light is etc etc is only how you get there. No one here may use PAR, know any thing about it, think it unnecessary info or even think it silly, & that's OK too. We all have or own opinions & ways of going about things. I'm guessing most think theirs is the best?

We're here to share!

The new guy
Jim





PS I did a quick search (I haven't read it all yet) on the planted tank forum for hoppy. If you would care to read any more about this or if you thought I was a full of it & was the only one, you might check this out. I'm not the only one that thinks this is a better way of knowing how much light (they can use) we give our plants.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368&highlight=


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

I am considering building an LED unit. I am mainly taking into consideration the amount of watts and the wavelengths that I want. Even within PAR there are wavelengths that are much better absorbed than others by the plant and within those wavelengths there are some that are much more efficiently used by the plant. For my design I'll be targeting the most efficiently used wavelengths, followed by best absorbed and everything else will be geared toward making it something you want to look at. 

I don't totally understand everything about LEDs and most people don't. So it will be tough to not be doing any trial and error.


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I looked into a DIY but I'm not very good with electronics. I'm probably going to get a couple high output units from Build My LED, plus some T5s & hope it's enough. The people at BML are very knowledgeable & helpful with choosing the spectrum/wavelength that suits the application.

Your right the bulb/wavelength options & combinations seem to be nearly endless. By choosing ones aimed at the wavelength plants can use best you will get more PAR per watt. That is a big part of the problem with the watts per gallon method with any light but LEDs especially. Should keep in mind the best wavelengths for plants don't look natural, so some balance between what looks good to you & what is most usable by your plants is another trial & error area.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Now can't you just keep adding white lights until it looks acceptable?


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

That is pretty much exactly what is done. Check out Build My LED website, the DIY spectrum page too. What I'm looking at is a 6000K riparium XB series (high output series) mostly two kinds of white one warm white & a few reds added for the plants.

You could build a multi channel unit with dimmers for all the different bulb groups so you could change the color balance/spectrum as you like. That is what I have on my small cold water reef tank. I have it dialed in with almost all red, blue & UV. Not natural looking at all but really looks good with livestock in that tank. They are all non-photsynthetic so no worries about PAR on that one.

Like your avatar. They are what I'm going to keep in my tank.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

ive been lighting deep vivs and growing and flowering orchids for a couple of years now. I used my old reef rule of thumb to light my vivs. I shoot for 100 par at the substrate of the viv. when I get light to that level I am able to grow whatever I want as long as I watch placement. using 100 lumen per watt leds this rule works out to just around 1 watt per gallon of viv. all of my vivs are lit using these 2 rules and are doing well. im my big viv when the bulbs are new the par values near the lights are closing in on the 500 range you said is almost unobtainable. I will be switching out the t5ho lights over my big viv for a diy led that I will make, but I am awaiting the next generation of efficient warm whites. I have read a few sites that say a 200 lumen per watt warm white will be available in a year or so. as long as they aren't outrageously priced that will be a game changer for plant lighting.


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

That is the kind of info I was looking for, thanks! That gives me an idea of what has worked before. 

When I said 500-700 was practically speaking unobtainable, I meant more for me than in general. It looks like I would need 4 48" high output BML units to get that much PAR. That would cost about $1300 which I just can't do at this point. Plus Because of some other things I only physically have room for two & then something 36" long, more LEDs or T5s. 

I'm guessing you mix some blues with the warm whites, to get back up to around 6000K?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

skanderson said:


> ive been lighting deep vivs and growing and flowering orchids for a couple of years now. I used my old reef rule of thumb to light my vivs. I shoot for 100 par at the substrate of the viv. when I get light to that level I am able to grow whatever I want as long as I watch placement. using 100 lumen per watt leds this rule works out to just around 1 watt per gallon of viv. all of my vivs are lit using these 2 rules and are doing well. im my big viv when the bulbs are new the par values near the lights are closing in on the 500 range you said is almost unobtainable. I will be switching out the t5ho lights over my big viv for a diy led that I will make, but I am awaiting the next generation of efficient warm whites. I have read a few sites that say a 200 lumen per watt warm white will be available in a year or so. as long as they aren't outrageously priced that will be a game changer for plant lighting.


Cool, good info.... Sounds like my estimates weren't to far off on LED wattage and whatnot. 




fullmonti said:


> That is the kind of info I was looking for, thanks! That gives me an idea of what has worked before.
> 
> When I said 500-700 was practically speaking unobtainable, I meant more for me than in general. It looks like I would need 4 48" high output BML units to get that much PAR. That would cost about $1300 which I just can't do at this point. Plus Because of some other things I only physically have room for two & then something 36" long, more LEDs or T5s.
> 
> I'm guessing you mix some blues with the warm whites, to get back up to around 6000K?




I played with their configuration thing and I was able to get a CRI of 99 using this setup. This might not be helpful to you since they're so expensive, but I'll put it out there for you and anyone else trying to configure a light...

I grouped the near by led's to make sure you got white light near the sides at the top of the viv, and the colors nearby each other should help balance each other out so that you get a fairly uniform white light overall. Remember this pattern will repeat every 12", which will further balance out the look of the light. 

Looks like it should be under 7000K overall, so aesthetically it should look a little bit more "cool white" then if you used all 6500K bulbs, and with a CRI of 99 the colors should really pop and look fairly natural I'd think. I don't know if it is optimal for uniform "whiteness", but looks like it should be pretty decent. Can always play with the placement of the individual colors to get better uniform whiteness if your well versed in color theory.

6500K
4500K
3500K
505nm
590nm
470nm
730nm
525nm
405nm
660nm
5700K
505nm
3500K
4500K
6500K
- See more at: Custom LED Strip - BML Custom
--------------------------
Estimated Electrical Watts
18.2 (Per foot)
Radiometric Watts
3.9
Wall Plug Efficiency
21%
Lumens
911 (Per foot)
Lumens per Watt
50
CIE X-Coordinate
0.300
CIE Y-Coordinate
0.322
CCT
7307
CRI
99
PPF (micromoles/sec)
16.9
PPF Efficacy (PPF/Joule)
0.9
Blue (400 – 499nm)
30%
Green (500 – 599nm)
37%
Red (600 – 699nm)
26%
Far Red (700 – 750nm)
6%
- See more at: Custom LED Strip - BML Custom

(You can replace 1 5700k with a 4500K to get a color temp a little closer to 6500K and still get CRI 99, but you get 17 less lumens per foot, 1 less lumens per watt)
I may have to get a short one to try. I'm curious how that setup would look over a viv. (when I get my first paychecks from new job)


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Here is how I visualize the problem: The OP wants to successfully create a very tall--48"-enclosure. However, what we don't want is to cook the epiphytes. Let me make clear, I am not claiming that PAR is not a valid concept; rather, there are many (very) successful growers who do not use it. I am still unclear as to why it is a more useful concept than foot candles or lumens to measure light intensity (and we don't need to penetrate water).

Having said that:
1) What is problematic about using HO "daylight" bulbs, with a color temp between 5000 and 6700? I have seen no empirical evidence that plants really grow and flower better with adding bulb A to add some reds, bulb B to add some blues, etc. (May I suggest that anyone who claims otherwise needs to control for temperature and plant nutrition before making such a claim.) Does anyone here have problems with HO T5s?

2) When I wrote my reply last night, I meant to write two *125* W mercury vapor lamps and *four* HO strips--sorry This would, in fact, create a real gradient from top to bottom. After all, most forest floors are dimmer places. Is the goal to create a very brightly lit floor/water area? For what, Amazon swords? Dwarf water lilies? In that case, if I may suggest an alternative: The best similar set ups I have seen were/are placed in well-lit rooms (not in direct sun, of course). The additional natural light really helps.

3) I do, however, like the idea of creating dawn/dusk effects, especially for the animals;

4) Consideration of other parameters: The OP mentions mentions that this will be a tank for lizards, and that he intends to grow orchids. Which lizards, which orchids? I maintain that there are other parameters, such as uv B, day/night temp, humidity, ventilation which are more important for the long term health of the tank denizens. I say this as someone who has been growing epiphytes in lizard tanks (or if you prefer, keeping lizards in epiphyte tanks) for 27 years.


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

I never wanted to say there was any problem using any combo of lighting. If anyone has been using some system & it been working by all means us it. But if you don't have some previous knowledge of what or how much will be needed or if your doing something so out of your norm & not using natural light, then a PAR reading is I think the best way of knowing how much useable light is reaching the plants in any given spot in your tank.

Pleas I would truly welcome any insight into keeping Anoles & epiphytes together you might want to share with me. Here is the link to my build thread. There will be a UV basking area, plenty of air flow, have a misting system in already but no info on temp till the light issue is in place. There will be 70gal of water in the mix as well, between the water & misting humidity shouldn't be a problem. 
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me.../133898-jims-display-paludarium-my-first.html

I have just about decided I will only be able to get two 48" BML XB units which by themselves give 200Par 18" from the lights. I already have two 48" 2 tube T5s & have found a closeout sale on a 4tube 36" T5 unit so what ever all that works out to be is all I'll be able to do for a while. May have to adjust what orchids I get.

This thread has run a lot longer than I ever dreamed, but good!

Hey Dendro Dave isn't BML great? 


Thanks all
Jim


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fullmonti said:


> I never wanted to say there was any problem using any combo of lighting. If anyone has been using some system & it been working by all means us it. But if you don't have some previous knowledge of what or how much will be needed or if your doing something so out of your norm & not using natural light, then a PAR reading is I think the best way of knowing how much useable light is reaching the plants in any given spot in your tank.
> 
> Pleas I would truly welcome any insight into keeping Anoles & epiphytes together you might want to share with me. Here is the link to my build thread. There will be a UV basking area, plenty of air flow, have a misting system in already but no info on temp till the light issue is in place. There will be 70gal of water in the mix as well, between the water & misting humidity shouldn't be a problem.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me.../133898-jims-display-paludarium-my-first.html
> ...


I think 2 XB's and then some T5's will probably work well enough. Sounds like you'll get at least 50 PAR on the floor after all that, and that should be enough for most medium/low light plants according to those aquatic plant charts.

And ya I like configuring stuff like that... I'll have to buy at least a small version and see how my config works. Actually I just came up with a better config that still has 99 CRI... I also figured out that their "CCT" stat means "correlated color temp" which = Kelvin (K). I was confused why their stats didn't have a "K" number but turns out they did, it was just written as CCT.

Turns out I was able to drop the Deep RED LED and replace it with a 4000k or all the way down to a 2700K and still get the CRI 99. 4000k seems the best choice since it boosts the lumen output the most and lowers the color temperature to a more aesthetically pleasing 6750K which should look very similar to most of the 6500k full spectrum lights we use on vivs, but with a much much better CRI. This new config also boosts the lumens per watt by 3, and increases the lumens per foot from 911 to 980, so 69 more lumens per foot (In 4' fixture that is like getting 2 extra LEDs!). I think this will be a more uniform white light too... (Blue green and red = white, so those being so close should blend into a mostly white light, and all the white light should balance out the cyans, amber, and UV... and the green will make the plants "POP". 3 versions of white bulbs on each end should keep the sides looking good without a blue or other color light hitting a plant or something and showing a funky color

6500K
4500K
3500K
505nm Cyan
4000K
470nm Blue
590nm Amber
525nm Green
405nm Ultra-Violet
660nm Deep Red
4500K
505nm Cyan
3500K
4500K
650
- See more at: Custom LED Report

Here is a slightly different version that bunches up the red/blue/uv to make one section of purplish light... with green on one side, amber on the other and a bunch of white to further balance it out on both ends... so this might actually be the best to make an even white light across the length of the fixture... (Same overall stats as the above config)

6500K (On each end makes sure if the light hits a plant on the sides of the viv or part of the hardscape it doesn't look wonky, life if a RED led had hit that area. Also blends well with the lower K white and the cyan)
4500K
3500K
505nm cyan
4000K
525nm geen (geen/red/blue = white)
660nm deep red (red/blue = purple)
470nm blue
405nm UV (pretty much purple)
590nm amber (all the other bulbs should balance out the amber and the green)
4500K (only a 500K difference between the corresponding LED on the other end... not noticeable)
505nm cyan (the Lower "K" bulbs around the cyan on each end should balance it out, along with helping to balance out the amber and the green and the purple/UV)
3500K
4500K
6500K
- See more at: Custom LED Strip - BML Custom

*I'm really curious to see what a 6750K light with a CRI of 99 looks like over a viv*, because I've used 6500-6700K CFL and LED bulbs and they look great but since they didn't have all those multi colored leds they only had a CRI in the 80's at most. 

I wonder how they do the 18" one, because that is the most useful/cost effective one for me to try my config with... but my pattern relies on being repeated every 12 inches.


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## gturmindright (Mar 15, 2006)

Would you really need to use all those useless greens and cyans to make it look white when you're using so many full spectrum bulbs? Maybe you could replace those with much more efficient colors instead and still have a good look...


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

gturmindright said:


> Would you really need to use all those useless greens and cyans to make it look white when you're using so many full spectrum bulbs? Maybe you could replace those with much more efficient colors instead and still have a good look...


A strategy like that is more practical for just lighting the viv so it looks nice and growing some plants, and being cost effective.

But...
They're not really useless, because they raise the CRI. Going with just various white bulbs in different kelvin ranges it is hard to get a CRI above the 80's. Now that isn't terrible because the 6500K CFL bulbs most of us use look pretty decent over a viv and they only have a CRI in the high 70's or 80's. So you you can use just a couple red/blue LEDs and/or a mix of 2700-6500K bulbs and get a spectrum that grows plants well and looks decent, but after trying numerous configs, I had difficulty hitting a CRI over 90, or hitting the overall optimum Kelvin range so the light would look aesthetically pleasing over a vivarium.

If you try to add a red and blue LED in there to add more plant growth spectrum (getting more growth with less light because you focus on the optimal growth spectrum (red and blue)) that throws off the CRI, and you have to balance it out with other colors. You also wanna shoot for a color temp around 5500k-6500K or at least close because to much more "K" and the light starts looking a little to blue (cool white), to little and it starts looking kinda yellow/orange (warm white). 


The config below still has a pretty decent CRI of 88 and an overall color temp (K) of 6033 which is in the sweet spot. It also has a red/blue led targeting the optimum growth spectrums. It has 1280 lumens per foot, which is 300+ more then my CRI 99 config. That is significant especially x 4 feet. 1200 extra lumens on a 4ft light is nothing to sneeze at. So if you compromise on CRI you seem to get higher lumen output. Ideally you wouldn't have to compromise CRI, and you'd be able to get a good 6000K(ish) color temp, and all those extra lumens... But I haven't found a config that does that at 98-99 CRI yet. 

A mostly white led with only 1 red/blue set of Leds per foot might be something the OP wants to do since they are trying to light the tank in an affordable way and going with mostly white leds and sacrificing some CRI does dramatically raise the lumen output.

It probably would be worth them sacrificing some CRI for more light intensity, but they may also be giving up some plant growth spectrum since some of those multi color LEDs do touch on some usable plant spectrum. That green led is almost useless for growth, but plants reflect green light so the Green LED makes the green plant color really "pop". You can do that with red and blue frogs too. I mixed in a more red light (coral life color max bulb) with other 6500K (full spectrum) bulbs over my benedicta frogs and even though I didn't notice the red light much mixed with the 6500k, the red on the frogs popped more because of that red light I'd put over them. 

* Earlier I was just trying to come up with something that would look good over a viv but actually have much higher CRI then most of the lights we get to work with.* I'm really curious to see how colors look when they are theoretically true to life with a higher CRI and an aesthetically pleasing color temp around 6000K.(Though CRI is based off a reference light source like a 4000K incandescent light so sometimes even with a high CRI colors can look strange.) 

If I used all 3500K bulbs I'd get a CRI of 86 which sounds pretty decent and is only 2 less then the config below, but the color temp would be 3500k instead of 6500k, so even though the CRI is nearly the same the colors would look strange to us because the overall color temp was 3500K (yellow/orangish warm white). That is why I was trying to get a high CRI with overall color temp around 6500, because I've never seen what colors look like under a light that color temp with a CRI at 90+. I think it would look really good 

Anyways here is that config with mostly white leds, and much higher lumen output, with a little bit better then average CRI then many 5500-6500 CFL bulbs I think....
6500K
4000K
6500K
3500K
6500K
4000K
660nm
470nm
6500K
4000K
6500K
3500K
6500K
4000K
6500K
- See more at: Custom LED Strip - BML Custom

So ya there is definite validity in using your strategy. It all depends on what you are trying to achieve though. In my config I was trying for the highest CRI in an aesthetically pleasing 6500K(ish) white light which most people seem to like over a viv. If I was going for just growth and brightness your way would be more cost effective, but I'm curious to see what 99 CRI looks like at 6500K over a viv, because I've never seen it


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

Just ordered my lights!. Two 48" XB BML fixtures. They are all 6500K bulbs with 3 deep reds per foot. Nick said he made some like this for one of the big wigs in the orchid society & that guy loved it. He said it looked great & some orchids he had owned for years bloomed for the first time with those lights. Could not argue with that!

I ask about & gave him Nick a sample configuration of a spectrum with a good many colored bulbs & a mix of whites, that all together made 6500K & ask what he thought. He said it would be great for an aquarium but in a vivarium through air you would get colored shadows. I did get colored shadows with one of their lights in my little cold water tank even through water. It was an easy fix, I just sanded the acrylic top on the tank with 600grit wet dry & no more problem.

Just thought some would like to know


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

fullmonti said:


> I looked into a DIY but I'm not very good with electronics. I'm probably going to get a couple high output units from Build My LED, plus some T5s & hope it's enough. The people at BML are very knowledgeable & helpful with choosing the spectrum/wavelength that suits the application.
> 
> Your right the bulb/wavelength options & combinations seem to be nearly endless. By choosing ones aimed at the wavelength plants can use best you will get more PAR per watt. That is a big part of the problem with the watts per gallon method with any light but LEDs especially. Should keep in mind the best wavelengths for plants don't look natural, so some balance between what looks good to you & what is most usable by your plants is another trial & error area.


This is exactly why PAR is coming into the limelight. In the past most people had very limited choices to work this means that 1 or a few individuals could give their experience with a setup and everyone else could sort of extrapolate from there. For instance people keep mentioning horticulturists. Well most of them are probably using sunlight in green houses they they are all on the same level. Someone else mentioned marijuana, users, why would they be into PAR? The answer is because they are probably all hiding their setups and need to keep everything including electricity on the down low. With LEDs their are millions of possible combinations. No standard fixture. And so now we can't just sit around rule of thumbing it anymore if we want to have options and limit mistakes and trial and error. 

PAR is not the end all be all of measures but its more accurate than any other measure we have. Sure successful people can get away without using it, but mostly those people have had tons of experience. For instance Mike at glassbox tropicals often says to me well I just figure if the plant likes the light its good. Great for him but by the time I can tell if an orchid does not like the light its got burn marks that will be stuck with if for years. People keep referencing experts and saying they are evidence you don't need PAR. That's completely wrong thinking. I bet I can take my car into the tire shop and the guy there can eye ball it and now if the pressure is right. Me I cant do that I need the gauge and the manual to make sure its right. 

Also we all know that subjective measures are highly skewed by BIAS and individual experience. Quantitative measures are something we should strive for to make the hobby better. 

In some hobbies like the planted tank world the makers deliver PAR values because they know the hobbyist use and expect it. Its really not that big of a deal for someone selling hundreds of lights to produce the numbers and they should.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

post pics of the viv with the lights on so we can have an idea of how it looks. ideal light temperature is a very individual choice. everyone seems to like a different color temp in my opinion and a lot of people do not like a high cri light better than some funky combo that makes things "pop". I would also agree that I would in general leave the cyans and greens out of a led build if I was going for efficiency. green is a straggler in efficiency and lots of good looking lights have been made without them. im still debugging the colored leds on my freshwater planted tank build but will post pics of them lit up when I do finally get the all working. that light does have a little bit of turquoise in it just to see if it makes a difference.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

fullmonti said:


> Just ordered my lights!. Two 48" XB BML fixtures. They are all 6500K bulbs with 3 deep reds per foot. Nick said he made some like this for one of the big wigs in the orchid society & that guy loved it. He said it looked great & some orchids he had owned for years bloomed for the first time with those lights. Could not argue with that!


Yeah a lot of people have trouble getting their orchids to rebloom after they've brought it home because it's often way darker inside your home in direct sunlight than it is outside in the shade.

Supplementing with red/blue helps to remediate that without having to overhaul everything or increase the total output.



Pubfiction said:


> Someone else mentioned marijuana, users, why would they be into PAR? The answer is because they are probably all hiding their setups and need to keep everything including electricity on the down low.


Well, the marijuanas is legal in CO and WA now I think, so maybe going on some pot growing forums might be a good idea for this sort of information lol. They certainly aren't shy about commenting on their hobby on social media lol.

Also, I think pot growers mostly use MH -- because not only does it need to be insanely bright, but I think it also needs to be fairly warm so the lights help in this regard also. In fact this is often how law enforcement catches larger output growers -- by using a thermal camera.

On one social media image site, someone even posted about the glasses that they need to wear to work to protect their eyes:










Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if there's growers out there using LEDs and measuring PAR.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

fullmonti said:


> Just ordered my lights!. Two 48" XB BML fixtures. They are all 6500K bulbs with 3 deep reds per foot. Nick said he made some like this for one of the big wigs in the orchid society & that guy loved it. He said it looked great & some orchids he had owned for years bloomed for the first time with those lights. Could not argue with that!
> 
> I ask about & gave him Nick a sample configuration of a spectrum with a good many colored bulbs & a mix of whites, that all together made 6500K & ask what he thought. He said it would be great for an aquarium but in a vivarium through air you would get colored shadows. I did get colored shadows with one of their lights in my little cold water tank even through water. It was an easy fix, I just sanded the acrylic top on the tank with 600grit wet dry & no more problem.
> 
> Just thought some would like to know


Cool... That should work pretty well. I'd expect a config like that might become the standard for vivariums as time progresses and LED's get better and cheaper.

I checked that config, and CRI 89, which is better then most off the shelf bulbs we use in vivs I think. CCT is 5479K, and the 5500K bulbs I've seen over vivs look nice so that gives you a good kelvin range (I actually think 5500-6000K looks better (more natural) then 6500K). The lumens are 1300+ so more bang for the buck with all those extra lumens.

You've already paid, but other people could exchange a 6500k bulb for cyan and boost CRI to 92 and Kelvin to 5700+. Or you could exchange the 6500 for a blue and boost the growth spectrum for plants, maintain the 89 CRI, but you would push the light to almost 7000K, which would still look pretty good but it would be slightly more cool white looking then vivs with standard 6500k bulbs over them. 

Oh one thing you can do with the multicolor leds is put a sheet of wax paper under them. That should difffuse the light and help the colors blend but you will loose some brightness.

Anyways, I think those will work great for you, but I still wanna see what 99 CRI looks like at around 5500-6500k 

I go to orientation for my new job Wednesday, so maybe I'll get to try one of these out soon.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

skanderson said:


> post pics of the viv with the lights on so we can have an idea of how it looks. ideal light temperature is a very individual choice. everyone seems to like a different color temp in my opinion and a lot of people do not like a high cri light better than some funky combo that makes things "pop". I would also agree that I would in general leave the cyans and greens out of a led build if I was going for efficiency. green is a straggler in efficiency and lots of good looking lights have been made without them. im still debugging the colored leds on my freshwater planted tank build but will post pics of them lit up when I do finally get the all working. that light does have a little bit of turquoise in it just to see if it makes a difference.


I touched on this earlier but just to reiterate...

The CRI and how good it actually makes colors look to our eye with one bulb vs another bulb depends on the color temp to some degree...

*"The technical definition of Color Rendering Index, or CRI for short, from Wikipedia is:
"Color rendering index, or CRI, is a measure of the quality of color light, devised by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE). It generally ranges from zero for a source like a low-pressure sodium vapor lamp, which is monochromatic, to one hundred, for a source like an incandescent light bulb, which emits essentially blackbody radiation. It is related to color temperature, in that the CRI measures for a pair of light sources can only be compared if they have the same color temperature. A standard "cool white" fluorescent lamp will have a CRI near 62. 
CRI is a quantitatively measurable index, not a subjective one. A reference source, such as blackbody radiation, is defined as having a CRI of 100 (this is why incandescent lamps have that rating, as they are, in effect, blackbody radiators), and the test source with the same color temperature is compared against this. Both sources are used to illuminate several standard samples. The perceived colors under the reference and test illumination (measured in CIE 1931 form) are compared using a standard formula, and averaged over the number of samples taken (usually eight) to get the final CRI. Because eight samples are usually used, manufacturers use the prefix "octo-" on their high-CRI lamps. 
The standard formula consists of taking the color differences ΔEi, between the test color and the eight samples, on the 1964 W*U*V* uniform color space (which is now obsolete). The color rendering index Ri is calculated for each of the eight samples:
Ri=100-4.6ΔEi, 
which gives the color rendering index with respect to each sample. The general color rendering index Ra is then the average of these eight separate indices."*

Source of quote and more detailed explanation here...
Color Rendering Index (CRI) Explained

So you could have a 3500K bulb with CRI of 85, and colors would look strange to our eyes... but if the bulb was 6500K with a CRI of 85 it would likely look much more aesthetically pleasing even though the CRI is the same for both bulbs. 

From searching online, seems Cyan is mostly for balancing out other colors or bringing out certain colors a bit more in corals. I also found some anecdotal reports that it made shapes crisper and like green made certain things "pop" and since it is green/blue light it may help with perceived brightness along with green leds since our eyes see green light best. So are green/cyan necessary? ...No, not unless your trying to balance out other colors to fine tune PAR, color temp and CRI, but doing that could help bring out some colors in your frogs and plants and improve your view 

For me I enjoy the display aspect of the hobby as much as the actual frog husbandry, so it might be fun for people like me to play with these multicolored LEDs to make the frog and plant colors really "pop" and improve/fine tune the display. Sometimes part of the fun is making it all so much more complicated then you really need to


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Hypostatic asked me to take a look at this thread, so I'll just start by throwing out a few thoughts about lighting specifications and PAR.

PAR is important, but I tend to agree that it probably isn't something to be overly concerned about, because we have very little control over it. I've been growing orchids for over 40 years and have never measured it once.

If I use the proper lighting spectrum, all I really need to worry about is the intensity. When I started out, the standard was 50/50 wattage wise, incandescent and cool while fluorescent (which was the only phosphor available at the time) bulbs. Better phosphors that corrected the spectrum improved things a great deal, allowing the use of fluorescents only.

PAR is a volumetric measure of photons hitting the plant per unit time per unit area, in wavelengths from 400 to 700 nm. The unit is usually expressed as micromoles per square meter per second (µmol/M2/sec. A micromole, in this case, about 602,000,000,000,000,000 photons.

One of the problems with relying on a PAR "number" is that it still doesn't tell you anything about the spectrum - 1000 µmol photons/sq M/sec at 400nm and 1000 µmol photons/sq M/sec at 700 nm would each give you a PAR value of "1000", but obviously neither would be good for growing anything. 

PAR is great if you're growing commercially in a greenhouse, where you know the spectrum is pretty solid, as it is really useful in allowing you to determine the amount of supplemental light needed during winter months - i.e., seasonally-reduced natural light + electrically generated light = natural summer levels required for your crop. A farmer growing in a field has no need for PAR, as "Mother Nature" controls it.

In a home environment, it is common to have lights on for a fixed time period, even if seasonally adjusted - usually 12 to 14 hours/day, so that locks down the "per second" aspect. If we buy lights that are intended for plants, we can pretty safely assume that the "necessary" wavelengths will be well represented, so the spectrum can also be generally disregarded, and the leaf surface area is what it is. That leaves us with "intensity" as the only variable we need to be concerned about, and that is controlled by the combination of output of the light source, area to be covered, and the distance to the plants.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

So I'd like to repost a question the OP had:



> So my question is. If a orchid needs a very bright light 2500-3500 foot candles of sun light, what amount of PAR of LEDs or T5s would that be?


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## Noel Calvert (Jan 8, 2013)

Dendro Dave said:


> Knowing the exact dimensions of the tank would be helpful too. One lighting setup may give you 100 par at 12 inches... but if the tanks is 40 inches high you'll have a lot less PAR at floor level so some plants may not do well there. So where you plant things in the vivarium will be important too.
> 
> It may be difficult to get high PAR at floor level without cooking everything at the top, so plant high light stuff near the top and lower light stuff near the bottom.
> 
> Need more info basically.


You could also use side lighting for the length of the tank. That actually might reduce the overall output needs as well... <shrugs>


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

The question never did involve what direction of lighting or what size or shape of the tank is or if your talking about the top or the floor of the tank. It was asking for a target number to aim for, how any one gets to that number is their own thing.

I later added that a straight conversion isn't really the whole story. You would also need to consider that the tank light is at a constant level all day every day & that daylight varies by season, rainy days, cloudy days & shadows. So it would seem you would need some amount less than a straight conversion. I hoped someone that keeps light loving orchids would know what Par they had in their tank, not simply a mathematical conversion.

In the end I doubt I'll have enough light for the biggest light hogs but would still like to know the target number so I'll have a better idea how much to adjust what orchids I do get.

I understand that people who have been doing this for a long time have found out what works & don't worry with any of this. But if your new or are doing something very different from your dorm or change what kind of lights your using, this info could be very helpful.


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## Ray (May 12, 2009)

Hypostatic, that's not really an easy question, as the so-called "conversion factors" vary with the light source, because of the differences in the spectral output.

According to the Apogee instruments website, 2500-3500 fc of sunlight is roughly equivalent to an instantaneous flux of 500-700 µmol/m2/sec.

If the light source was a cool white fluorescent, with a different, typically more blue/less red spectrum, in order to match the solar PAR, your fluorescent intensity should be about 37% higher, or roughly 3400-4800 fc. A T5 lamp with a plant-favorable phosphor, would likely be somewhere in between the two.

What would be required from LEDs? I have no idea, as it would depend upon the wavelengths used, the blend of colors, their individual outputs, etc.

Apogee shows their meter's response to different light sources - you tell me the equivalents!


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## fullmonti (May 10, 2013)

It's my understanding that is what a Par reading is for. It is a measurement of the part of the spectrum plans use most, more or less separate from the rest of the spectrum, no matter what kind of light source is being used.

I pretty much have accepted that I will not get that target number & will be doing the trial & error thing


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