# New to forum, not to frogs. Few ?'s



## Linda Jean (Oct 24, 2012)

Hi all!

I am somewhat new to the forum. I have been using my son's account this past year to buy frogs, but I thought that it was about time to join in the community. 

I currently have a 24" cube set up with 4 _R. Imitator_ "tarapotos" from the Tor Limbo line. I recently broke down my 60g long aquarium which housed my D. auratus and_ D. leucomelas _ and am currently setting up an 80g tall with a whole new style of a cage. The dimensions of my new cage are 36 X 15 X 32. I am getting some highland bronze and other frogs that enjoy climbing. 

*Any thoughts of a maximum population of frogs in the new 80g cage? *

*Now here is another question, and it is somewhat of a controversial one. I would like to add more blood lines to my personal tank, different morphs of imitators in one cage. This is for personal collection only, none of the possible offspring will be sold, given away, or leave this house. Any colorations that would / could contaminate the pure lines would all remain in my care, and for my enjoyment. That being said, is there any reason that one could not mix imitators without having issues between the frogs? What are you experiences with this type of herpetoculture, and is there any scientific backing or studying that has been done to prove one way or another? *

*My third question is similar to the second. Keep in mind I want these frogs for my own personal collection; not to sell, trade, or create new species ( which would happen by pure accident of nature in the first place ). Can a variety of the Genus Ranitomeya cohabitate in the same enclosure? *

Again, I would like to hear from people with experience on this matter, or references to validated scientific information regarding this subject. 

I appreciate all your thoughts and input on this subject;
Thank you,
-Linda


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/85358-scientific-reasons-not-mixing-frogs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/85165-ideology-behind-not-mixing-morphs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/75040-hot-topic.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/68908-what-deal-mixing-frogs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/65959-making-people-care-about-mixing.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/40870-so-you-want-reason-not-mix-species.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...-frogs-also-how-build-stream-though-tank.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/38183-mixing-species.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38335-crossbreeds-update.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/37060-hybrid-dart-frogs-dont-shoot.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/36732-questioin-about-mixing-species.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/36285-people-who-have-no-idea-what-theyre-talking-about.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/35467-mixing-frogs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/9709-mixed-tank-verdict.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/feedback-questions/31970-possible-get-giant-mixing-sticky.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/31439-mixed-tank-leucomela-thumbnails.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/30496-mixed-species.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/30053-hybridization-question.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/35702-keeping-different-frogs-same-tank.html



....I have a feeling you won't read through half of that, so let me paraphrase it all for you: *NO*


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

randommind said:


> ....I have a feeling you won't read through half of that, so let me paraphrase it all for you: *NO*


You forgot the mother of all threads! http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Linda Jean said:


> This is for personal collection only, none of the possible offspring will be sold, given away, or leave this house.
> -Linda


Said by the 90% of people who get out of the hobby after a year.....


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## bsr8129 (Sep 23, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/86056-my-large-mixed-viv-thread.html


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## InHoc1855 (Apr 28, 2011)

No...

Wait let me think....

No.


If you were looking in to having a multi-something viv, then try geckos.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Carpet bombing the new person is probably counter productive. 


Everyone on the bandwagon


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Hi and welcome 

I saw this in your post and wanted to clear up something in case it is misunderstood:



> Any colorations that would / could contaminate the pure lines would all remain in my care, and for my enjoyment.


The mixing of morphs/lines is not about color variations. These are separate populations of frogs. There will be color variations between even the closest of relations. Color cannot be used to determine the line or morph of the frog. That's why it is so important to keep them separate from the start or the line is lost. They cannot be separated again by color. Crossbred frogs cannot be separated back to their original line/morphs, ever.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I suggest not keeping more than two imitators in a tank, as they are a true monogamous animals. Keeping a group is the equivalent to having two or more husbands/wives, it usually doesn't work out. If you do feel the 'urge' to mix species in an 80 gallon vivarium, try the Oyapok morph of tinctorious and blue leg ventrimaculatus. These frogs occasionally come into contact in the wild and cannot interbreed. Or perhaps some sort of pumilio and auratus.

But I would not recommend mixing in any manner. People make promises and say "I won't let these frogs get mixed with purebreds yada yada". But a year later they get out and sell those 'un-pure' frogs. Just my two cents.

D


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Your imitator question makes it sound like you want to see a lot of variation. You may do well with imitator from a population with a lot of variation in appearance like "Chazuta" imitators from UE UE imitator. This population has a ton of variation, and are quite charming. 

Just an idea.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Linda Jean what did you do for the last year? Did you just use Dendroboard as a means to buy frogs? Did you read any other posts on husbandry issues? Certainly just browsing this forum once a week for a year you would have come across the answers to most of these questions. Hitting the search button now and typing in "Mixing" would probably give you all the information you need to make and educated, informed descion concerning the housing and husbandry of your frogs. 

What happened to your D. auratus and D. leucomelas? You mentioned you broke down their tank but what are they housed in now, where will the be housed in the future?

My apologies if this sounds terse to you, it's not meant to be. This thread is just another in a long line of "I'm gonna do what I want" threads. 
Best of luck to you.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Not to mention using your son's account is a violation of the db user agreement.


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## mimic711 (Oct 18, 2012)

I'll put it to you from a liberal stand point, 99.9% of all people on this forum will tell you not do it, but in reality its your $ do what you want.


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

As said on another like thread, pass the popcorn......


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Turningdoc said:


> As said on another like thread, pass the popcorn......


*Passes popcorn and coke*. You want some butter?

D


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## Linda Jean (Oct 24, 2012)

oneshot said:


> Said by the 90% of people who get out of the hobby after a year.....


I have owned and raised poison frogs for about 5 years now, so apparently I am in the %10



InHoc1855 said:


> No...
> 
> Wait let me think....
> 
> ...


Completely unhelpful, rude answer. Infact it wasn't an answer to any questions. Show me your scientific backing and try again. 



outofreach said:


> Carpet bombing the new person is probably counter productive.
> 
> 
> Everyone on the bandwagon


Thank you.


And I appreciate very few of your answers. I like the Idea of setting up another vivy with a more variant prone frog. Thank you for the good articles to read, to explain why. 
I was able to talk to Sean Stewart's sister this morning, and she was much more polite, and gave me some good advice. She also provided scientific references, and recommended a few textbooks to look over. 

Exactly why I never made my own account on here is because of the rude, uneducated people who are completely unopen to reason, or being at all helpful with any answers. 

But I appreciate some of the answers I was given. 


The frogs I had that I took down are right now, in temporary cages until my 80g tall is finished and ready for the frogs to go back in. 

Why I never searched this forum for answers is because honestly, I am not good with computers and I do not know how. Whenever a compatible frog species came up, my son would let me know and show me. Then occasionally I would get one to add to my _auratus_ collection.


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

gonna need a LARGE coke
Countdown to Ed in 3..2...1...


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

Linda Jean said:


> and is there any scientific backing or studying that has been done to prove one way or another?
> or references to validated scientific information regarding this subject.





Linda Jean said:


> Completely unhelpful, rude answer. Infact it wasn't an answer to any questions. Show me your scientific backing and try again.


So, you didn't find ANY scientific backing in the 21 linked threads? 

Here's some I found in a thread ironically called "scientific reasons for not mixing"


Okay, we can break this down into a couple of different issues that have a scientific background.. 

The first is stress where behavioral mechanisms cause some form of negative interaction. The most simple of these is the consumption of one animal by another but that is rarely an issue in dendrobatid enclosures.. so we have to look at the more complex issues.. One of these occurs when you have animals that have similar body shapes and behaviors in the same enclosure. This would be more than one species of dendrobatid housed in the same enclosure. Where this can cause stress issues are where the two species interact with territorial or resource guarding behaviors. In this case we can see two possible scenarios, 
1) where territorial displays are not recognized by one species resulting in non-stop display in one species,
2) territorial/resource guarding behaviors are recognized but submission/release behaviors are not recognized. This results in stress for both species. 

Contary to a lot of opinions, you typically do not get stress from two disparate species inhabiting the same enclosure provided that the enclosure supports the correct conditions for all species. Typically people do not design the enclosures to meet the specific requirements of all species resulting in enviromental stress for one or more species. 

The other main "scientific" reason is to avoid using species from seperate regions (ideally they should be from the exact same region) is the issues from novel pathogens jumping species. This has been seen in multiple taxa including frogs.. The evolution of chytrid into a global pathogen is probably due to more than one strain sharing genetics (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...15108.full.pdf).... There are other pathogens that are a risk as well, for example the group of iridoviruses (including ranaviruses), are known to jump host species and taxa (see http://potomacwildlife.org/disease/ranavirus.pdf), including from/to invertebrates (see for example http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/19/6/674.full.pdf and further (short mention) http://www.biosecurity.govt.nz/files...ata-aus-ra.pdf..... 

This is a real risk since few people in the pet trade take appropriate action to help reduce or prevent novel pathogens from becoming established in both the hobby and in the local enviroment even though the precautions are fairly simple (double bag all solid waste including plant cuttings and discard into the appropriate waste stream (do not plant outside or where water can run into the enviroment, do not compost), and bleach all waste water). We have seen multiple pathogens make the escape to the enviroment (for example mycoplasma infections in native tortoises and box turtles)..... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Linda Jean (Oct 24, 2012)

oneshot said:


> So, you didn't find ANY scientific backing in the 21 linked threads?
> 
> Here's some I found in a thread ironically called "scientific reasons for not mixing"


I did get some great information from those articles, and I acknowledged that I appreciated all the posts that were helpful. 

You, oneshot, did not provide anything but a sneer and rude comment. Think about it.


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## Linda Jean (Oct 24, 2012)

I have all the information now to make a good decision. Please close if an admin can please close this thread, I feel there is no need for any more contributing comments.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

I must say that by no means do I think mixing is ok and I do not have any mixed tanks myself but the responses on here are childish. It seems the whole board is just waiting for someone to post something that the members here don't like so they can act like idiots and give dumb ass answers like use the search function and also post shit that puts people down cause of lack of experience. Well this board would be nothing if all we did at this point is just search for answers. It would be filled with my first Viv threads which gets a lot older faster then topics like this. Everyone needs to stop thinking they are experts and stop posting if your not helping the OP. how does this hobby grow if you bash ever person that has a question you don't like. You all talk like your perfect or something and it seems to be the same people calling everyone out all the time and those people need to get a life. 

Sorry for spelling and grammar mistakes it is 230 am and I am on my phone but I could not resist posting in this thread. I am sure I will have my misakes pointed out to me by our great community


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

shrum said:


> I must say that by no means do I think mixing is ok and I do not have any mixed tanks myself but the responses on here are childish. It seems the whole board is just waiting for someone to post something that the members here don't like so they can act like idiots and give dumb ass answers like use the search function and also post shit that puts people down cause of lack of experience. Well this board would be nothing if all we did at this point is just search for answers. It would be filled with my first Viv threads which gets a lot older faster then topics like this. Everyone needs to stop thinking they are experts and stop posting if your not helping the OP. how does this hobby grow if you bash ever person that has a question you don't like. You all talk like your perfect or something and it seems to be the same people calling everyone out all the time and those people need to get a life.
> 
> Sorry for spelling and grammar mistakes it is 230 am and I am on my phone but I could not resist posting in this thread. I am sure I will have my misakes pointed out to me by our great community


Shrum,
I'd like to counter your opinion by saying the search function is a useful and vastly under used tool on this forum. Is it perfect? No, sometimes you have to search through multiple pages to find the thread you really want. There are many many topics which new users could easily find the information at the click of a button as opposed to starting a new thread for which the topic that has already been covered ad nauseum. Of course if it's no big deal to you I'll make sure to refer every noob asking "How many darts can I keep in a 10 gallon tank?" and "What temps can I keep darts at?" or "How do I culture fruit flies?" straight to you. It does get very old to see the same questions asked over and over and over again. It's get so old that personally I don't want to even want to post on those threads. Neither do many other experienced keepers. That just leads to other noobs just starting their first build, regurgitating answers for other people. Let's face it people are lazy, why would they use the search function when they could start a new thread asking the same old question and wait for an answer. 
There is such a wealth of information here. Including reasons to not mix frogs. Any user that has been on this board for a year, should be familiar with the reasons why not to mix. IMO there is no excuse for being ignorant of basic husbandry practices for these animals. If a person can't take care of these animals properly, perhaps they should consider getting a pet rock.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Shrum,
> I'd like to counter your opinion by saying the search function is a useful and vastly under used tool on this forum. Is it perfect? No, sometimes you have to search through multiple pages to find the thread you really want. There are many many topics which new users could easily find the information at the click of a button as opposed to starting a new thread for which the topic that has already been covered ad nauseum. Of course if it's no big deal to you I'll make sure to refer every noob asking "How many darts can I keep in a 10 gallon tank?" and "What temps can I keep darts at?" or "How do I culture fruit flies?" straight to you. It does get very old to see the same questions asked over and over and over again. It's get so old that personally I don't want to even want to post on those threads. Neither do many other experienced keepers. That just leads to other noobs just starting their first build, regurgitating answers for other people. Let's face it people are lazy, why would they use the search function when they could start a new thread asking the same old question and wait for an answer.
> There is such a wealth of information here. Including reasons to not mix frogs. Any user that has been on this board for a year, should be familiar with the reasons why not to mix. IMO there is no excuse for being ignorant of basic husbandry practices for these animals. If a person can't take care of these animals properly, perhaps they should consider getting a pet rock.


Please do send the noobs my way for any question they may have because I love to help people with anything i can but you must be above all that so i see why you can’t be bothered....Your post to her was rude and you try to say to the OP not to take it that way but you would never say that if you didn’t know yourself you came off like a snob. As for being ignorant that is a strong statement to make for someone who has less experience then you or so you say you have. And if we never repeat posts on here then we all have to see the new viv threads with dumb ass comments like nice tank needs leaf litter or move this plant here or make this background that.....Are you telling me that the search function can’t explain those questions. Stop trying to be a DB cop and if you don’t like the thread then don’t post anything, most of us don’t want to hear you stupid smart ass answers...I wonder why people are giving me thanks on my post maybe it is because I have no idea what I am talking about. I think maybe it is you who needs to learn something. 1500 post since 2010 i am sure all those posts you have are just filled with helpful info......


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

shrum said:


> Please do send the noobs my way for any question they may have because I love to help people with anything i can but you must be above all that so i see why you can’t be bothered....Your post to her was rude and you try to say to the OP not to take it that way but you would never say that if you didn’t know yourself you came off like a snob. As for being ignorant that is a strong statement to make for someone who has less experience then you or so you say you have. And if we never repeat posts on here then we all have to see the new viv threads with dumb ass comments like nice tank needs leaf litter or move this plant here or make this background that.....Are you telling me that the search function can’t explain those questions. Stop trying to be a DB cop and if you don’t like the thread then don’t post anything, most of us don’t want to hear you stupid smart ass answers...I wonder why people are giving me thanks on my post maybe it is because I have no idea what I am talking about. I think maybe it is you who needs to learn something. 1500 post since 2010 i am sure all those posts you have are just filled with helpful info......


As of this moment, not one person has thanked you for that post. They've liked it, not thanked you.
Mixing *is* being ignorant of proper husbandry practices. Especially mixing different morphs of the same species, such as oh, imitator morphs as originally posted. Or proper quarantine procedures which I'm sure many keepers totally ignore. I'm all for the discussion of new and different techniques for the proper care of our frogs. Many noobs do have valid questions. IMO after spending a year on this forum and keeping frogs you aren't a noob anymore and you should have a better grasp on what you're doing with the frogs. Especially when lately it seems there is a new thread on mixing every week. 
Let me ask you this? Are you in favor of experienced keepers giving their advice or for noobs just starting their first build to give advice to other noobs by regurgitating information they have no actual experience with but they've read somewhere? Yes your 157 posts in 4 years certainly shows you jump right in and share your vast wealth of knowledge.
Clearly what we have here is a difference in ethics. The difference between people who oppose mixing, flipping, smuggling, and want the best for their frogs, and people like you.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> As of this moment, not one person has thanked you for that post. They've liked it, not thanked you.
> Mixing *is* being ignorant of proper husbandry practices. Especially mixing different morphs of the same species, such as oh, imitator morphs as originally posted. Or proper quarantine procedures which I'm sure many keepers totally ignore. I'm all for the discussion of new and different techniques for the proper care of our frogs. Many noobs do have valid questions. IMO after spending a year on this forum and keeping frogs you aren't a noob anymore and you should have a better grasp on what you're doing with the frogs. Especially when lately it seems there is a new thread on mixing every week.
> Let me ask you this? Are you in favor of experienced keepers giving their advice or for noobs just starting their first build to give advice to other noobs by regurgitating information they have no actual experience with but they've read somewhere? Yes your 157 posts in 4 years certainly shows you jump right in and share your vast wealth of knowledge.
> Clearly what we have here is a difference in ethics. The difference between people who oppose mixing, flipping, smuggling, and want the best for their frogs, and people like you.


My number of post just shows that I have been here for awhile and I don’t find the need to post on every single topic like you do especially ones that are no help to anyone. I am not here to argue with you because it does no good. IMO you were rude and just like you hate the mixing posts I hate to see the bashing posts and you seem to be the ring leader. As for the thanks and likes who cares it is all the same.... point was that people agreed with me and that says something. If you think you were being constructive then that is fine I personally don’t see it that way. I guess you skipped being new and went right to being a pro well good for you buddy but me I had a lot of questions and some were probably stupid but people were nice to guide me in the right way not bash me remember this is a community not a cult. Did your mom not teach you if you have nothing nice to say don’t say anything at all? I wonder if she asked you that question in person if you would be so rude....Internet tough guy  BTW I am far from offended this has nothing to do with me I am actually laughing as i post looking at your avatar lol Hey rusty have a good day buddy and thanks for being our forum rent a cop Noobs would be running ramped if you were not around geez


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I think being polite is always a good practice. However, in Jon's defense, she did introduce herself as someone with experience, or, at least, not new.



> Re: New to forum, not to frogs. Few ?'s


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## MrBiggs (Oct 3, 2006)

shrum said:


> Please do send the noobs my way for any question they may have because I love to help people with anything i can but you must be above all that so i see why you can’t be bothered....


No. You don't care about helping others, you care about being heard. There is a HUGE difference. Someone who cares about helping others provides them with useful information, whether that's specific to their question or information on the 'how' of finding such information.

For example, a couple years ago I too had questions about mixing species and the like. So rather than post a new thread I searched and searched and searched to find the crazy amount of information available on the subject. Then after I'd done that I thought 'hey, maybe this information could be useful to others'. So what did I do? I created this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html by collecting, combining, linking, referencing, and posting the information I'd found, including various Q&A's, general information from more knowledgeable members (Thanks Ed!), as well as various examples of how multispecies enclosures had been done by others.

That's what helping looks like. What you're doing is NOT helping.

As an aside, want to take a bet on which of our posts will receive the most 'likes' and 'thanks'?


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

frogface said:


> I think being polite is always a good practice. However, in Jon's defense, she did introduce herself as someone with experience, or, at least, not new.


The point of this is not if she is right or wrong. The point was how we answer people in our posts is all. I think things rusty said was spot on I just don't like the delivery. But that is just my opinion....


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

frogface said:


> I think being polite is always a good practice. However, in Jon's defense, she did introduce herself as someone with experience, or, at least, not new.


And she started with, "I know this is a controversial subject...." so she had to have already known that it's frowned upon.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

shrum said:


> My number of post just shows that I have been here for awhile and I don’t find the need to post on every single topic like you do especially ones that are no help to anyone. I am not here to argue with you because it does no good. IMO you were rude and just like you hate the mixing posts I hate to see the bashing posts and you seem to be the ring leader. As for the thanks and likes who cares it is all the same.... point was that people agreed with me and that says something. If you think you were being constructive then that is fine I personally don’t see it that way. I guess you skipped being new and went right to being a pro well good for you buddy but me I had a lot of questions and some were probably stupid but people were nice to guide me in the right way not bash me remember this is a community not a cult. Did your mom not teach you if you have nothing nice to say don’t say anything at all? I wonder if she asked you that question in person if you would be so rude....Internet tough guy  BTW I am far from offended this has nothing to do with me I am actually laughing as i post looking at your avatar lol Hey rusty have a good day buddy and thanks for being our forum rent a cop Noobs would be running ramped if you were not around geez


You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. I'm not going to berate you for having a different opinion and say your remarks are "smart ass."
Think about this, this is *OUR* hobby. All of us. If I don't take a stand, if you don't take a stand, against those things we believe are wrong, who will? Will then smuggling, mixing, become common place and acceptable? Will then hybrids become the norm? 
I'm not here to win friends and influence people. I could give a damn. Though I have made a good number of very good friends in the frog hobby. I'm here to be myself. I'm not here getting paid to be a teacher and answer every basic frog 101 question from every noob. Sure I don't mind helping them and I do it quite often. But there are many many things they can learn on their own by putting forth a bit of effort, just like I did when I started. If they aren't willing to put forth the effort on their own to learn, will they be willing to put forth the effort to make ensure the continued health of their frogs? Or is the hobby a 6 month or 1 year thing to them? Because it's not for me. There are some things you only learn from experience. Everyone has to learn them through experience, there are no shortcuts. 
I make statements based on my experience and my morals and ethical values. Sorry they don't agree with yours, that's just the way that it goes. 
I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you. I'm here to share the knowledge I have gained through my experience, and to express my opinions on subjects that I feel are important to me and to the hobby in general. With that...I'm done with this crap.


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

MrBiggs said:


> No. You don't care about helping others, you care about being heard. There is a HUGE difference. Someone who cares about helping others provides them with useful information, whether that's specific to their question or information on the 'how' of finding such information.
> 
> For example, a couple years ago I too had questions about mixing species and the like. So rather than post a new thread I searched and searched and searched to find the crazy amount of information available on the subject. Then after I'd done that I thought 'hey, maybe this information could be useful to others'. So what did I do? I created this thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html by collecting, combining, linking, referencing, and posting the information I'd found, including various Q&A's, general information from more knowledgeable members (Thanks Ed!), as well as various examples of how multispecies enclosures had been done by others.
> 
> ...


You got more likes then me darn lol. If i just wanna be heard I think I would have more post then 150 since 08. That is just dumb


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## shrum (Dec 1, 2008)

Then lets agree to disagree I appreciate the conversation and will try my best to take your opinions and use them the next time I post. I just suggest we all do the same.. Have a great day all....and sorry about my grammar and sentence structure the phone is not so forgiving..


Rusty_Shackleford said:


> You are certainly entitled to your opinion, as am I. I'm not going to berate you for having a different opinion and say your remarks are "smart ass."
> Think about this, this is *OUR* hobby. All of us. If I don't take a stand, if you don't take a stand, against those things we believe are wrong, who will? Will then smuggling, mixing, become common place and acceptable? Will then hybrids become the norm?
> I'm not here to win friends and influence people. I could give a damn. Though I have made a good number of very good friends in the frog hobby. I'm here to be myself. I'm not here getting paid to be a teacher and answer every basic frog 101 question from every noob. Sure I don't mind helping them and I do it quite often. But there are many many things they can learn on their own by putting forth a bit of effort, just like I did when I started. If they aren't willing to put forth the effort on their own to learn, will they be willing to put forth the effort to make ensure the continued health of their frogs? Or is the hobby a 6 month or 1 year thing to them? Because it's not for me. There are some things you only learn from experience. Everyone has to learn them through experience, there are no shortcuts.
> I make statements based on my experience and my morals and ethical values. Sorry they don't agree with yours, that's just the way that it goes.
> I'm not here to get into a pissing match with you. I'm here to share the knowledge I have gained through my experience, and to express my opinions on subjects that I feel are important to me and to the hobby in general. With that...I'm done with this crap.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

This place is gonna drive me to drink.....and it's a short road.


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

Again, want some popcorn?


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

This has worked out well.


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

Linda Jean said:


> Hi all!
> 
> I am somewhat new to the forum. I have been using my son's account this past year to buy frogs, but I thought that it was about time to join in the community.
> 
> ...



In this post you mention, 

my 60g long aquarium which housed my D. auratus and_ D. leucomelas

I am getting some highland bronze 

a maximum population of frogs in the new 80g cage

add more blood lines to my personal tank, different morphs of imitators in one cage

Any colorations that would / could contaminate the pure lines would all remain in my care, and for my enjoyment

Can a variety of the Genus Ranitomeya cohabitate in the same enclosure?

These are all questions that raise red flags about the seriousness of your husbandry. You are aware these are animals and not decorations right? With frogs long lives and active breeding, how do you plan on caring for the offspring exactly especially if you keep "maximum populations"? If you "add more bloodlines" how do you plan to track them or identify breeding problems?
Bottom line, if you want to be taken seriously, step up and show some knowledge or don't be surprised when you piss off those that do and try to provide you with guidance.

Sorry Jon, spilled the popcorn. Sure there will be more later though._


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

An example for the OP. The frog in the link I'm posting is labeled as Azureus. Based on it's color and markings, it could also be a New River, Koetari River, or Sipawilini. That's why we need to know what it's origins are. They can't be separated based on physical features, alone.

Azureus_4-26_9_ - Dendroboard Gallery


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

Turningdoc said:


> In this post you mention,
> 
> my 60g long aquarium which housed my D. auratus and_ D. leucomelas
> 
> ...


_

This reply I did not find as offensive as some, you made some good points here. This is one reply I thought I would dignify with a comment. Red flags may have gone up yes, but where are the answers? You did not provide any in this reply, you raised more questions. 

" step up and show some knowledge or don't be surprised when you piss off those that do and try to provide you with guidance. "

That statement is somewhat of a double negative. If one seeks guidance, they should not have to live in fear of asking questions. I don't believe that a person should have to prove how much they know in order to be *worthy* of more knowledge. If this was the case, no one would ever learn and mankind in general would sink into darkness. You share information with those who need it. And if they ask for it, you do not demand that they already know the answers in which they seek. That is extremely hypocritical. 

A lot of you are just going back and forth with defensive or aggressive answers, and one or more party is in the wrong. I don't see anyone apologizing for anything; for being rude, mean, unhelpful, quick to type out a comment they may have later regretted. They just keep perpetuating this snowball effect of hate and nothing is getting resolved. 

Now allow me to respond:



Hello everyone. This is the son of Linda Jean here. I have worked hand in hand with my mother and her frogs, in fact I was the person who gave her my 150g set up years ago when I got out of poison frogs. I told her to go on this forum to get some good answers, and good info. Well, it seems like there has been some issues to clear up, maybe a little more information to add to help clear the air I hope. *Whenever I refer to "me" or "I"; I am refering to both of us, as I have worked hand in hand with all of her frog care.*

For well over 5 years I kept blue auratus, leucs, hawian green auratus, and brown auratus together, and every single frog got along just fine. I had no interbreeding. Once one of my frogs started calling, I would separate them so I knew which where males. I had a pair of costa rican green auratus that I bred for 2 years, and I raised dozens of tadpoles to maturity. I even got some very nice reticulated offspring from them, and eventually sold the mated pair.

For 5 years I have kept " beginner " species of poison frogs, and now that I am on to the Ranitomeya, I was curious about keeping a variety of them together like I did with the auratus. After talking to John Stewart's sister I got my well educated answers. She was not only extremely helpful, but VERY kind in her answers to my questions. She even spent well over an hour of her busy day to sit and talk to me on the phone. And she was happy to answer these some what " noob " questions. Now in that case that was my mother who called and talked to her, not me. She sought out the information from a professional, also calling Understory Enterprizes asking a million questions about R. imatators. 

As for asking what " maximum " amount of auratus frogs I can keep in my new 80g was to keep them from getting over crowded. From what I remember, there was a limit on how many frogs to keep per 10 gallons, and since I have not set up any new vivy in 5 years ( besides my quarantine tanks, and separate 10g breeding tanks ) I could not remember if there was a general rule of thumb. Most of the time I would stick with 1 frog per 10g, and make sure that I had many many hiding places ( atleast 3 good ones per frogs, and a jungle so thick no frog ever saw another if they didn't want to), and see how comfortable each frog was before adding another. The most I had in my 60g was 7 at once, because all frogs got along great. They all ate together, socialized, and NEVER once did I see any fighting or aggression between them in the 1,000's of hours spent observing them. I would like the same conditions in my new cage, and I do not want my frogs overcrowded. That is why I asked the question. 

-- Now here is a reply to the community just from me --

I don't have all the time in the world to manage every person I know operations with what I have going on ( breeding / raising Tegus, fresh water Planted Aquariums, breeding / raising tranchulas, managing my pond with Turtles and Terriapans, being a part time forest Ranger, growing many plant species, taking care of 6 snakes, AND THE LIST GOES ON! ). I spend more time studying, reading, learning, and getting hands on experience with Reptiles and Amphibians then probably all of you here ( no offense, it is just my entire life's work ). You can not imagine how many questions I get asked on a daily basis. I have found after many years that 'teaching a man to fish' is the best way to work with people when it comes to exotic animals. I could run over to everyone's house every time there is an issue or a question, but that is unrealistic and I have found that most people don't learn anything if I do the study and work for them. I think that is a fact that all people come to realize at some point. 

I know people get tired of answering the same questions over and over again. I do it all the time with people that are new to setting up fresh water planted aquariums. It get frustrating after answering the same question for the 500th time, when a lot of the basic knowledge is right there. I use to tell people to "just use the search button", but some don't know how, and some don't simply have the time to, and they just need a few easy questions asked. Should they make the time if they are in such a hobby? More then likely yes. But no one knows the circumstances of the other person behind the screen. I never lash out, spew out hatred, or get overly defensive with people. You attract more more flies with honey then crap, and I always find that true when giving advice. More people will listen to what you have to say, rather then just seeing anger and mockery; then they will turn to a different source. And if you have the right answers, and you make them turn to another source, they could be given false answers. 

This is one of the least frequently visited forums; "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less then of you half as well as you deserve" lol. I have seen some great forums, and I have seen some that have a large amount of 'know it all' "experts" that are always harsh, rash, mean, and quickly jump down someones throat when someone comes in off colored. My mother did not reply to any of your answers with disinterest, or with negativity. She asked the questions because she wanted to learn, and then apply what she learned so as to not be harming any of her animals; which is wise. I see a lot of people on a lot of forums that are starting to get this mentality of being arrogant and rude. I have quit going on a few just because of that, because anything question you ever ask is picked apart to see what was wrong, and not what is right. And when they find the wrong, they beat people over the head with it, rather then just answering the person's question and helping the person get to a good place. *If you can't do that, you should keep your mouth shut, because you are not helping anyone. You are not helping yourself, you are not helping people, you are not helping the community, and you are not helping the hobby or your own cause!*

Now I have come across a great wealth of information on this forum, and most of you really know what you are doing. I hate to see forums with such a vast amount of knowledge and wisdom squander it because of personal feelings, arrogance, pride, self assumption, or whatever it is that causes each person to react with such unsavory words. 

I would implore all of you to think of how you can make this place a better, pleasant, more meaningful, and more productive place of learning. That is what forums are all about. I hate to see this negative trend increase, of which have been an eye witness to over the past few years. 

-Caleb_


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

I would like to add one more thing.

I personally know some people who are quite brilliant in their field, wither it be herpetology, entomology, Ichthyology, Ornithology, Botany, or any specialized field of the natural world. Some I know in person, people I have meet through forums. They don't always have 10,000 posts to their name, but they know more then their people with 100 times more posts then they do. 

These people are the ones that normally take a lot of time to write articles in a forum or otherwise. Why not do the same? I never judge someone by the amount of posts they have, but the quality of posts that they produce. 

I doubt that any of you here think that taking care of poison frogs, your particular interest in Herpetology is a *science*. So remember, to write a scientific article ( or reply, answer ect), you have to follow one basic rule of science. *The scientific method. *. I think we all learned what that is in grade school. One aspect of the scientific method that a lot of people miss is that it is not bias. If you are bias, or have harbor favoritism toward your solution and / or your problem, then your results will be flawed. 

You have to stick with facts, and leave your emotions out of it. *Which is not an easy thing to do at all. * Especially in a field that you are passionate for, and care a lot about. If you veer into ethics without solid scientific backing that is NOT BIAS, your words hold no real meaning. They may to some, because your argument is impelling. But in the end, flawed is flawed. There is a measure of responsibility that comes with knowledge, and if you use it to persuade people to believe you, and believe in your ethics by throwing in human emotions or guilt; that is unethical in itself.

-Caleb


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Respectfully, all of the questions were answered in the second post

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/782985-post2.html


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

Respectfully, what hypothesis are you testing with maximal mixed populations of frogs? Will be very hard to test and draw conclusions with a million variables.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Turningdoc said:


> Respectfully, what hypothesis are you testing with maximal mixed populations of frogs? Will be very hard to test and draw conclusions with a million variables.


respectfully,

With a million variables we will all need to join together and mix as many frogs as possible. Of course to get more accurate results. 

I have a 200 pound tortoise I was wanting to house with my vanzos but was concerned with size difference. But then again the tortoise does very little climbing.

By request lol


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

CanewtReps said:


> For well over 5 years I kept blue auratus, leucs, hawian green auratus, and brown auratus together, and every single frog got along just fine. I had no interbreeding.


Not here to bash, just to point out this scientific fact. The only way to be absolutely, 100% sure no interbreeding takes place, is to house each species/morph separately.

Edit: Given the presence of both sexes of Dendrobatidae, the only way to be absolutely, 100% sure no interbreeding takes place, is to house each species/morph separately.


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## srrrio (May 12, 2007)

frogface said:


> Respectfully, all of the questions were answered in the second post
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/782985-post2.html


I agree Kris. 

However I do have to wonder how the thread would have gone, if after that post the OP was given some time to read the info, without all the following posts, how her response would have been.The board has a tendency to dog pile these posts, then I think the odds are not very great that the OP will not feel defensive and it all goes downhill from there.


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

frogface said:


> Respectfully, all of the questions were answered in the second post
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/782985-post2.html


Exactly frogface, and thank you for being the only person using respectfully in an un sarcastic tone. There was no need for all the following remarks after all the links to read up on were laid out. 2 posts answered every question, dozens of posts followed with blind stabs in the dark. 



Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Not here to bash, just to point out this scientific fact. The only way to be absolutely, 100% sure no interbreeding takes place, is to house each species/morph separately.
> 
> Edit: Given the presence of both sexes of Dendrobatidae, the only way to be absolutely, 100% sure no interbreeding takes place, is to house each species/morph separately.


How right you are Rusty. There is no way to be 100% sure, _unless sex was predetermined prior to cohabitation. _

Let me go a step further (and why I bother at this point is beyond me) to say that around 6 years ago or so, I personally was told by a few people I respected, that you can house all _auratus_ species together. Besides that, and normal husbandry care, I knew nothing of mixing species. And since I never ONCE had a problem, not even one, there was never a need to research for a change. I can still go today, ask the same people the same question, and they will tell me that I can keep _auratus_ together. I did not find more information on the housing of these frogs until 2 year or so ago. But at that point, I already had an established colony of various frogs that had lived together quite well for many many years. 

I believe of course that no one should house Ranitomeya with auratus, that would be a disaster. I believe the original question was, *can you*, without putting the frogs in physical harm, house R. imatator variants together. The answer to that question is yes... But *should* you? For the sake of interbreeding bloodlines ect NO.


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

outofreach said:


> respectfully,
> 
> With a million variables we will all need to join together and mix as many frogs as possible. Of course to get more accurate results.
> 
> ...


Disrespectfully, this use of a hyperbole (I'm sure you don't know what that word means so go ahead and google it) is ridiculous. You are not even comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to Rhynos. 

I never suggested or have done myself, a mixing of frogs of a different genus, and none that varied with an adult size any more the -.25".

This asinine comment is exactly what I was talking about. Many points I stated clearly went right over your head, and all you know is frogs, nothing more. 



Turningdoc said:


> Respectfully, what hypothesis are you testing with maximal mixed populations of frogs? Will be very hard to test and draw conclusions with a million variables.


You guys seem to be unable comprehend a word I have said. I was referring to general statements, general thesis writing, general frog care sheets that I would encourage you, yourself to write, even if not shared to the public, for the sake of gaining true knowledge. 

Where on Earth did you get me testing putting frog species together as test? When I read your posts, I literally thought, are these people high? or just completely blinded to reason and study. 

If I wanted to test out how many genus of frog I could get to cohabitate, I could set up a study lab and come up with real results. " Very hard " for you maybe, but it is clear that many simple sciences are far beyond your reach, and all you are able to do it parrot what you read, without any individual thought or reason.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

CanewtReps said:


> Disrespectfully, this use of a hyperbole (I'm sure you don't know what that word means so go ahead and google it) is ridiculous. You are not even comparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to Rhynos.
> 
> I never suggested or have done myself, a mixing of frogs of a different genus, and none that varied with an adult size any more the -.25".
> 
> ...


Huh? No I don't have a parrot. 

May I suggest a couple deep breaths, use a paper bag if necessary.

Humor, try it.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CanewtReps said:


> Let me go a step further (and why I bother at this point is beyond me) to say that around 6 years ago or so, I personally was told by a few people I respected, that you can house all _auratus_ species together.


Point of clarity. There is only one species of auratus. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CanewtReps said:


> If you are bias, or have harbor favoritism toward your solution and / or your problem, then your results will be flawed.
> 
> You have to stick with facts, and leave your emotions out of it. *Which is not an easy thing to do at all. *Especially in a field that you are passionate for, and care a lot about. If you veer into ethics without solid scientific backing that is NOT BIAS, your words hold no real meaning. They may to some, because your argument is impelling. But in the end, flawed is flawed. There is a measure of responsibility that comes with knowledge, and if you use it to persuade people to believe you, and believe in your ethics by throwing in human emotions or guilt; that is unethical in itself.
> 
> -Caleb


Actually it is only when you permit your desire for a specific result change the interpretation or the data used to get to the end point that emotion is a problem. Outside of that, emotion is fine... And regarding the whole comment on ethics.. there is an entire field that actually requires evaluation of science through ethics since there are potentially real problems when it is ignored.. a classical example of the lack of ethics causing issues, is the Tuskegee syphilis experiment.... I am referring to the entire field of bioethics. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CanewtReps said:


> As for asking what " maximum " amount of auratus frogs I can keep in my new 80g was to keep them from getting over crowded. From what I remember, there was a limit on how many frogs to keep per 10 gallons, and since I have not set up any new vivy in 5 years ( besides my quarantine tanks, and separate 10g breeding tanks ) I could not remember if there was a general rule of thumb. Most of the time I would stick with 1 frog per 10g, and make sure that I had many many hiding places ( atleast 3 good ones per frogs, and a jungle so thick no frog ever saw another if they didn't want to), and see how comfortable each frog was before adding another.


The whole frog/gallon ratio thing when you stop to think about it is pretty useless since it has issues with space not increasing at the same rate as the volume as well as whether or not the enclosure provides equal quality habitat at all locations. This thread breaks down the flaws with those sort of recommendations http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html. 

I'm not a big fan of of the over planted enclosures since most of the frogs aren't found in those enviroments.

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

After parsing through this thread.. I'm going to throw something out there for pondering and discussion.. 

If there aren't any tadpole deposition sites, outside of potential novel parasite issues, what is the concern with housing various imitators together? 

They have the same behaviors including how to act towards one another. 


Some comments 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If there are at least 3 different morphs of Auratus in one viv, and at least one of these morphs includes a male and a female, how can you possibly say that crossbreeding is impossible? At an absolute minimum, you have one male and three different types of females. Why is it impossible for him to breed with the other two? It doesn't matter if you go the other way. Then you have one female and three different morphs of males. 
It is entirely possible that the dozens of frogs you produced, were, in fact, crossed morphs. I'm curious if these dozens of unknown lineage frogs have all been released into the hobby.


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

Ed said:


> After parsing through this thread.. I'm going to throw something out there for pondering and discussion..
> 
> If there aren't any tadpole deposition sites, outside of potential novel parasite issues, what is the concern with housing various imitators together?
> 
> ...


A good question that I have been waiting for an answer.



Pumilo said:


> If there are at least 3 different morphs of Auratus in one viv, and at least one of these morphs includes a male and a female, how can you possibly say that crossbreeding is impossible? At an absolute minimum, you have one male and three different types of females. Why is it impossible for him to breed with the other two? It doesn't matter if you go the other way. Then you have one female and three different morphs of males.
> It is entirely possible that the dozens of frogs you produced, were, in fact, crossed morphs. I'm curious if these dozens of unknown lineage frogs have all been released into the hobby.


I quote myself "sex was predetermined prior to cohabitation"

I only ever bred my mated pair of costa rician greens in a* separate* breeding tank, go back and re read what I wrote. I never had _auratus _ offspring that were cross species, I wouldn't have sold them. I would have kept them, and raised them their entire life until they died of natural causes. 

Several beers later and I am still shaking my head lol


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I'm completely sober and I'm shaking my head.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

CanewtReps said:


> I quote myself "sex was predetermined prior to cohabitation"
> 
> I only ever bred my mated pair of costa rician greens in a* separate* breeding tank, go back and re read what I wrote. I never had _auratus _ offspring that were cross species, I wouldn't have sold them. I would have kept them, and raised them their entire life until they died of natural causes.
> 
> Several beers later and I am still shaking my head lol


You were not clear about that in this post. 



CanewtReps said:


> For well over 5 years I kept blue auratus, leucs, hawian green auratus, and brown auratus together, and every single frog got along just fine. I had no interbreeding. Once one of my frogs started calling, I would separate them so I knew which where males. I had a pair of costa rican green auratus that I bred for 2 years, and I raised dozens of tadpoles to maturity. I even got some very nice reticulated offspring from them, and eventually sold the mated pair.
> -Caleb



I had a real question for you with no smarta** comments, so who's being rude now? Perhaps you should read this.




CanewtReps said:


> I would implore all of you to think of how you can make this place a better, pleasant, more meaningful, and more productive place of learning. That is what forums are all about. I hate to see this negative trend increase, of which have been an eye witness to over the past few years.
> 
> -Caleb


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> I had a real question for you with no smarta** comments, so who's being rude now? Perhaps you should read this.


I'm sorry Pumilo, my frustration shouldn't be taken out on you, or anyone else. You did make a valid point there. 
I tried replying in a nice, civilized manner. And appeal to human decency. And yet still I mostly got back, as you say, smartass comments. So I am basicly over being nice if all people want is a fight. But I apologize to you.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Thank you. Accepted.
Hey, back to Ed's post, you did see the part about the creation of novel pathogens, right? When you put two frogs from different parts of the world together, there is always a chance that they are being exposed to a pathogen/set of pathogens that they have no natural defense against. Pathogens can also change/mutate when put into different conditions. They may mutate to be able to survive in conditions that they could not survive, before. They may begin to attack organisms that they did not affect before. This novel pathogen can escape your enclosure pretty easily through waste water, plant clippings, or through something you may not even consider. A single fruit fly or even a springtail escaping could release the pathogen into the wild. You could step on a droplet of water that fell from your lid, and carry it outside. It is possible that the next Chytrid will be created somewhere in captivity. Ed is much better qualified to explain this more. 
Ed also mentioned this. 
Ed: _"If there aren't any tadpole deposition sites, outside of potential novel parasite issues, what is the concern with housing various imitators together?
They have the same behaviors including how to act towards one another."._
Your reply was: _"A good question that I have been waiting for an answer."_
That actually was an answer, formed as a question. If I know Ed, that was carefully phrased to spark a better conversation about this, and also to get you and your mom to research the points he mentioned. He pointed out the following:
1) Look into the dangers of creating a novel pathogen.
2) If you do NOT include any broms, film canisters, or pools or water of any kind, then it is impossible for any froglets to develop.
3) He pointed out that they will have the same behavior whether they are a mix of Imitator morphs, or just a group of multiple imitators. So what you need to do is look into keeping Imitators as a group. Imitators CAN be kept as a group, but they are not the best choice of Ranitomeya for a group setting, especially if you have no experience with Imitators. They can intimidate and stress each other to death. Typically, if a group of Imitators are just thrown together without a properly built viv, you may begin to see one or more, less and less often. You see them one last time and notice they are a bit skinny. They you never see them again. You need to be watching for stressed frogs, frogs that are not behaving naturally, or are losing weight.
You need to take into account that they need extra space, but even more so, you need to create proper conditions for them. You need multiple prime calling spots up high and prominant. They want the girls to see them. If there is only one really great spot, one male will be left frustrated and that stress will build and build. Let's say you have 3 males. You need 3 prime calling spots, right? Wrong. 2 frogs still get the best 2 spots and the third male has no choice. He wants a choice too. So you need at least 4 prime calling spots and more is better. 
You will need to establish several "territories". This can be done with physical and visual obstructions. A good physical obstruction could be a cork bark tube used as a fallen log, or perhaps a raised portion of the viv. This raised portion is probably easier seen than described, so take a look at the pics below. 
Visual obstructions could include broad leafed plants and a good canopy cover. Frogs down low can easily escape from frogs up high.
You'll also want to include a deep base of leaf litter, like 2" deep. Again, a more submissive frog can escape the dominant one.
If you were breeding, you would want multiple egg laying sites and multiple tad deposit sites (but we already discussed eliminating that).
You'll need to make sure they don't have to compete over food.
You have probably avoided overplanting in the past, so your terrestrial frogs have plenty of space. My thumbs love a well planted viv.
Make use of your negative space. If all you have is the ground and the back wall, you are wasting a LOT of tank space that your thumbs cannot ever use. A well placed piece of ghost wood can stick up into that negative space, making a regular "jungle gym" for them. Plus you can fill that with epiphytes.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Just wanted to say I saw that tank at Dougs in March, grown in, and it was great. Good looking summersi in there too Doug. I know when my wife and I finally settle down somewhere where I know I'll be for 5+ years I'll be doing some clay backgrounds and substrates.


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

A question about pathogens then. By they way great post.

If you were worrying about a pathogen getting from one species to another, wouldn't that thought be a moot point if you have many generations of frogs captive born and raised? Or, would they carry them on with them, just with a high immunity built up?

Just a thought that popped into my mind after reading the post.

Amphibians are a section of the natural world that I have little hands on experience with. Little compared to reptiles. I have dealt with quite a few newts, but always from the same locale with extremely sanitized condition. Each specimen was also checked over, and observed for parasites, bacteria, and the like; so no new contaminate was ever introduced. I kept track of the poison frogs that I owned for all these years. But to me, they were incredablly easy to care for, and I never ran into any bumps in the road with them.

I wouldn't mind checking the frogs under a microscope for anything living external, but I don't have the tools to harvest tissue or blood samples from such a small creature like the R. imatator. If given enough time, I could more then likely make them. To me, that would be a fun project to do, when I have the time to take on something new.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

*Every* animal carries it's own set of pathogens, bacteria, and parasites. There is no such thing as a completely clean animal. Normally, their own immune system should be able to keep things in check. If they are then stressed badly, the system can go out of whack and the frog could drop, overwhelmed by the pathogen.
The point is, the frog's immune system is prepared to deal with the challenge as the population has lived hand in hand with a given set of pathogens for perhaps hundreds of years or more. Introduce this pathogen to a frog with no natural defense against it and it could drop dead.
The worst case scenario could be a pathogen mutating, killing off every frog in your viv, then finding that it has spread to other vivs and wipe out an entire collection. During the clean up, all it takes is one fallen leaf making it's way outside, and you could have a virtually unstoppable problem that could theoretically sweep the planet. Look at Chytrid. It is killing billions of amphibians across the planet.
The real danger of a novel pathogen is not about you. It is about what _could_ happen when it escapes.
All I can give you is a hobbyists grasp of this possibility. Ed is much better qualified with the science behind it.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

QUOTE=CanewtReps;783851]
I spend more time studying, reading, learning, and getting hands on experience with Reptiles and Amphibians then probably all of you here ( no offense, it is just my entire life's work ). 

Now I have come across a great wealth of information on this forum, and most of you really know what you are doing.

-Caleb[/QUOTE]



CanewtReps said:


> -Caleb





CanewtReps said:


> This asinine comment is exactly what I was talking about. Many points I stated clearly went right over your head, and all you know is frogs, nothing more.
> quote]
> 
> Amphibians are a section of the natural world that I have little hands on experience with. Little compared to reptiles.
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Pumilo said:


> That actually was an answer, formed as a question. If I know Ed, that was carefully phrased to spark a better conversation about this, and also to get you and your mom to research the points he mentioned.


Thanks Doug, it's always nice to see when someone pays attention. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CanewtReps said:


> If you were worrying about a pathogen getting from one species to another, wouldn't that thought be a moot point if you have many generations of frogs captive born and raised? Or, would they carry them on with them, just with a high immunity built up?


Contrary to what many people think even frogs bred for multiple generations can carry pathogens and/or parasites. In some cases, there may be local adaptation which confers resistence to the disease that is not shared by even the same species from other locations. One of the diseases in which we see this as a big issue is with some of the strains of tiger salamander virus. see for example EcoHealth, Volume 6, Number 3 - SpringerLink Other types of viruses in this group (ranaviruses) are implicated in global declines and are a potential real problem with captive amphibians. 

This is before we consider that various parasites are commonly found in captive bred frogs (such as lungworms, hookworms and coccidians)..... 

Chytrid is another issue since various strains of it are found globally but even in this case it appears that human movement of amphibians was initially a potential cause for the pathogenicity since at the very least it gave it access to unexposed sensitive populations... 




CanewtReps said:


> I wouldn't mind checking the frogs under a microscope for anything living external, but I don't have the tools to harvest tissue or blood samples from such a small creature like the R. imatator. If given enough time, I could more then likely make them. To me, that would be a fun project to do, when I have the time to take on something new.


While a good practice it actually doesn't always tell you a lot about the potential risks or pathogens.. for example one of the known pathogens is Mycobacterium marinum.. which is also normally found in the enclosure (a common feature in both reptile and amphibian bacterial infections). M. marinum is also a potential zoonotic and can infect you as well.... Most parasites are only going to be detected in fecals (or in rare cases necropsies), while pathogens are going to require histopathology and potentially culture methods. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Hey, I have 2 threads waiting for comments and answers. Wanna use all the time and energy wasted in this "mixed tank question of the week" there? I sure would appreciate it.


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> QUOTE=CanewtReps;783851]
> I spend more time studying, reading, learning, and getting hands on experience with Reptiles and Amphibians then probably all of you here ( no offense, it is just my entire life's work ).
> 
> Now I have come across a great wealth of information on this forum, and most of you really know what you are doing.
> ...







CanewtReps said:


> This asinine comment is exactly what I was talking about. Many points I stated clearly went right over your head, and all you know is frogs, nothing more.
> quote]
> 
> Amphibians are a section of the natural world that I have little hands on experience with. Little compared to reptiles.
> ...


Yes I know more about Reptiles and Arachnids than amphibians, as far as hands on work. That doesn't mean I an ignorant of them by any means. I have been talking about hands on work here. I believe you can study day and night and have a p.HD in 5 sciences, but if you have never had hands on experience.. Well that is something that can not be taught. My work with Newts doesn't really cross over here much. It does help a bit though. 



Ed said:


> Contrary to what many people think even frogs bred for multiple generations can carry pathogens and/or parasites. In some cases, there may be local adaptation which confers resistence to the disease that is not shared by even the same species from other locations. One of the diseases in which we see this as a big issue is with some of the strains of tiger salamander virus. see for example EcoHealth, Volume 6, Number 3 - SpringerLink Other types of viruses in this group (ranaviruses) are implicated in global declines and are a potential real problem with captive amphibians.
> 
> This is before we consider that various parasites are commonly found in captive bred frogs (such as lungworms, hookworms and coccidians).....
> 
> ...


I agree with this a lot 

"detected in fecals (or in rare cases necropsies), while pathogens are going to require histopathology and potentially culture methods."

The problem seems to be able to isolate and identify what "pathogen" is in environment, and in living creature. Another complication is testing probable symbiotic bacteria that reside within an animal as well. 

I was given a frog that has a deformed leg. If it is just out of place, or broken, I can fix that. For now though he is alone. If he is unable to be fixed, this may be my first candidate for dissection. What I could find could be more then just what the carry, but what they need, and also identification of of a harmful pathogen could lead to finding a cure, If was I also able to culture the found pathogens. 

Thoughts?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CanewtReps said:


> The problem seems to be able to isolate and identify what "pathogen" is in environment, and in living creature. Another complication is testing probable symbiotic bacteria that reside within an animal as well.


I think you don't have a good understanding of reptile and amphibian bacterial infection and thier normal flora and fauna. 

As with reptiles, the most common disease causing bacteria are the ones that are normally found in thier body as well as thier enviroment... a classic example of this is Aeromonas hydrophilia. This bacteria is readily cultured from any moist area in a reptile enclosure, amphibian enclosure or from the actual body of the amphibian or reptile. This bacteria is considered to be one of a group that are linked to septic conditions which cause the symptoms which result in "red leg" (note, red leg is a symptom since it could be due to a septicemia, viral infections, fungal infections, irritation... and not a disease no matter what the hobby thinks...). 
I think you may want to pick up a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry to clear up your misconceptions. 



CanewtReps said:


> I was given a frog that has a deformed leg. If it is just out of place, or broken, I can fix that. For now though he is alone. If he is unable to be fixed, this may be my first candidate for dissection. What I could find could be more then just what the carry, but what they need, and also identification of of a harmful pathogen could lead to finding a cure, If was I also able to culture the found pathogens.


See my comments above... 
1) a gross necropsy isn't going to tell you what they need unless you are able to perform histopathology and have the ability to determine (as an example) the different forms of metaplasia apart so you can tell that one is possibly due to vitamin A deficiency as opposed to other changes... 
2) a gross necropsy isn't going to tell you anything about thier pathogens unless you also perform histopathology and know how to do differential stains as well as differential culturing methods (and have the tools). 

As for "leading" to a cure, it is clear that you have a poor understanding of the state of amphibian and reptile medicine with respect to pathogens. Before sacrificing an animal for no other apparent reason than it isn't perfect, you need to educate yourself a whole lot more.... and even then you aren't likely to have the tools to do a correct diagnosis. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Hey I had some questions in another thread I started. Maybe a little input when you get a break here? It doesn't concern lexan, foam, fecals or mixing though.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brief Hijack Alert... 




outofreach said:


> Hey I had some questions in another thread I started. Maybe a little input when you get a break here? It doesn't concern lexan, foam, fecals or mixing though.....


I'm not sure why you have your pants in a knot.... If you were referring to your temperature and activity thread, you recieved answers that were correct. I'm not sure why you think you need to have a volume of answers since you already have good information. 

Some comments 

Ed
Hijack done.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Ed said:


> Brief Hijack Alert...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure there is room for elaboration, especially these folks.

Note... im not wearing any panties


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

This thread is actually finally turning out some real information. I think it's in poor taste to tell those who are giving some real information to *get out* because we should only expend any energy on YOUR thread.
I will answer those threads that I feel qualified to comment on. If I am not qualified to answer, I'm not going to. What good does it do for me to enter a plant ID thread, only to answer, "Umm, it's green". More specific? "Umm, it's various shades of green".

If somebody cares to PM me and ask for my input on a thread, that's one thing, but when I'm told to get out because only your thread matters, well...it's not gonna happen.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> This thread is actually finally turning out some real information. I think it's in poor taste to tell those who are giving some real information to *get out* because we should only expend any energy on YOUR thread.
> I will answer those threads that I feel qualified to comment on. If I am not qualified to answer, I'm not going to. What good does it do for me to enter a plant ID thread, only to answer, "Umm, it's green". More specific? "Umm, it's various shades of green".
> 
> If somebody cares to PM me and ask for my input on a thread, that's one thing, but when I'm told to get out because only your thread matters, well...it's not gonna happen.


Sure good information here. 

I have poor taste. Please continue


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Sure good information here.
> 
> I have poor taste. Please continue


Now you are just flat out insulting. There is good details regarding how to group imitators even of the same morph. There is good information regarding the creation of novel pathogens and what that really means.
Insulting me in public is a wonderful way to get my input.


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## CanewtReps (Jun 29, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> This thread is actually finally turning out some real information. I think it's in poor taste to tell those who are giving some real information to *get out* because we should only expend any energy on YOUR thread.


I to am happy to see this progress and information developing here. 



Ed said:


> I think you don't have a good understanding of reptile and amphibian bacterial infection and their normal flora and fauna.
> 
> As with reptiles, the most common disease causing bacteria are the ones that are normally found in their body as well as their environment..
> 
> ...


Do you have a good text book in mind to study? I believe you are right, learn a little bit on the (literal) smaller scale, and build from that. 

The Issue with the frog with the bum leg is, that if it is not going to be able to forage or survive with his condition, see an opportunity to study pathogens hands on. I want the frog to live, but if it comes down to it I would say that so far he is just a candidate. 


My brother is a doctor, graduated top of his class from Stanford University. My sister, works in veterinary medicine and has for years. I think I just may be able to acquire the tools needed for this study. Someone with a better base knowledge I would welcome greatly to be part of it if they wanted. 

Let me rephrase what I said earlier, about a "cure". I was thinking more of medicine or method to counter an unwanted pathogen.


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

"detected in fecals (or in rare cases necropsies), while pathogens are going to require histopathology and potentially culture methods."

The problem seems to be able to isolate and identify what "pathogen" is in environment, and in living creature. Another complication is testing probable symbiotic bacteria that reside within an animal as well. 

I was given a frog that has a deformed leg. If it is just out of place, or broken, I can fix that. For now though he is alone. If he is unable to be fixed, this may be my first candidate for dissection. What I could find could be more then just what the carry, but what they need, and also identification of of a harmful pathogen could lead to finding a cure, If was I also able to culture the found pathogens. 

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

All good thoughts. The thing to understand is that culturing bacteria, viruses, yeast or fungi from an animal or its enclosure is not proof it is a pathogen. You need to first identify it AND prove it caused the infection. This is why necropsy alone is unlikely to yield a true answer unless you get lucky and happen to ID some highly unusual organism present, which is much less likely than an ordinary bacteria, yeast, or virus causing a known disease state. ie Staph bacteria are always present on your skin, but also are the #1 cause of skin infections.


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

Pumilo said:


> Hey, back to Ed's post, you did see the part about the creation of novel pathogens, right? When you put two frogs from different parts of the world together, there is always a chance that they are being exposed to a pathogen/set of pathogens that they have no natural defense against. Pathogens can also change/mutate when put into different conditions. They may mutate to be able to survive in conditions that they could not survive, before. They may begin to attack organisms that they did not affect before. This novel pathogen can escape your enclosure pretty easily through waste water, plant clippings, or through something you may not even consider. A single fruit fly or even a springtail escaping could release the pathogen into the wild. You could step on a droplet of water that fell from your lid, and carry it outside. .


I only have 2 vivs at the moment, in different rooms of the house. I guess this is a question for those lucky enough to have their own frog rooms. Have any of you had 1st hand experience with something like this happening? Maybe one species makes another more susceptible to illness? I'd be pretty upset if I had sets of all healthy frogs and then something so minute could spread and cause so much havoc and potentially wipe out a tank or multiple tanks. I'm guessing though that it's pretty rare with proper care and some common sense since I've saw a lot of collections housed in the same room. Now I'm paranoid and going to scrounge around for different isolation techinques like bleach soaking plants, dealing with escaping bugs, etc.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

JayMillz said:


> I only have 2 vivs at the moment, in different rooms of the house. I guess this is a question for those lucky enough to have their own frog rooms. Have any of you had 1st hand experience with something like this happening? Maybe one species makes another more susceptible to illness? I'd be pretty upset if I had sets of all healthy frogs and then something so minute could spread and cause so much havoc and potentially wipe out a tank or multiple tanks. I'm guessing though that it's pretty rare with proper care and some common sense since I've saw a lot of collections housed in the same room. Now I'm paranoid and going to scrounge around for different isolation techinques like bleach soaking plants, dealing with escaping bugs, etc.


Bleaching plants should be in your regular routine with any viv you set up, be it in a separate room or not. It helps to prevent unwanted critters like snails or slugs from hitching a ride right into your viv. They'll treat your plants like their own private smorgasbord.


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## JayMillz (Jun 27, 2012)

I know, it was just an example. Not a good one though lol. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of airborne illnesses that could spread through a room, or the example of a small bug escaping. When I get home tonight I'm going to poke around for some extra husbandry techniques to prevent stuff like that from happening. Go Dendroboard!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

CanewtReps said:


> Do you have a good text book in mind to study? I believe you are right, learn a little bit on the (literal) smaller scale, and build from that.


It depends on your background and how well you are able to understand the concepts... If you have a good grasp of it, then as I mentioned above, Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry (which involved some of the premier specialists in that field), Reptile Medicine and Surgery (2nd edition if you have a good technical grasp otherwise, try the first edition). For a decent source of photographic documentation, then I suggest Biomedical and Surgical Aspects of Captive Reptile Husbandry. For a good understanding of stress I suggest Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles... All in all, probably somewhere between $500 and a $1000 new (and yes, I have copies of all of them).... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Turningdoc said:


> All good thoughts. The thing to understand is that culturing bacteria, viruses, yeast or fungi from an animal or its enclosure is not proof it is a pathogen. You need to first identify it AND prove it caused the infection. This is why necropsy alone is unlikely to yield a true answer unless you get lucky and happen to ID some highly unusual organism present, which is much less likely than an ordinary bacteria, yeast, or virus causing a known disease state. ie Staph bacteria are always present on your skin, but also are the #1 cause of skin infections.


Thanks for the emphasis on this.. as I noted earlier, a large number of the bacteria found in and around the frogs are the ones typically associated with diseases... You can't assume that because on swabbing the frog has Aeromonas hydrophila that it is causing a disease process in the frog... 

For example one of the most common fungal pathogens is Saprolegnia but it is considered to be ubiquitous in the enviroment so to discover it in the frog's enviroment doesn't mean that it is going to cause a problem with the frogs. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JayMillz said:


> I know, it was just an example. Not a good one though lol. I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of airborne illnesses that could spread through a room, or the example of a small bug escaping. When I get home tonight I'm going to poke around for some extra husbandry techniques to prevent stuff like that from happening. Go Dendroboard!!


Ranavirus can be transmitted by infected/contaminated insects (as one example). The best thing a person can do is to quarantine any frogs for at least 30 days and for more than one fecal testing. Testing for chytrid and ranaviruses can be accomplished via pcr swabbing. This is why as a best practice, quarantining all animals should be done in a seperate area from the established collection. 

Ed


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