# Anoles with Dart frogs?



## Matt020593

I've posted this on Dendroworld.co.uk too but I am looking for more answers from people who have actually tried this.
Has anybody succesfully kept Anoles with Dart frogs? I will soon be moving my group of Anoles into a fully planted vivarium with a false bottom, and was wondering what experiences people had had mixing Darts with Anmoles

It'll be a 2'x2'x15" viv.


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## zBrinks

I've personally never tried this, but would not attempt it in a vivarium of those dimensions.


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## scott r

I have kept anoles with dart frogs with no problems. However, The enclosure was 48" tall, and there was alot of driftwood branches between the 24 to 40 inch height from the floor of the enclosure. There were also alot of vines from branch to branch and most floor plants were 24 to 36 inches tall so the anoles stayed up in the canopy and didn't venture to the floor. The anoles were also fed from a deep sided dish up in the canopy so the crickets weren't on the floor either.

With a height of 15 inches, I would say it is not worth it.


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## Matt020593

Sorry, it's a 2' high+long viv, 15" wide.


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## tkromer

I'd say it can work out, but in a tank close to double that size. At that size there will be a lot of competition possibly.


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## Otis

I wouldn't do it, there both are pleny entertaining by themselves. If you are set on mixing though, the mourning gecko, L. lugubris can be housed with the larger darts. Blackjungle is the only place I know of that is selling cb ones. But with anything, make sure you quarentine not just dump the frogs and geckos in the first day you get them.


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## Brian Ferriera

Most anoles are WC and most darts are CB and even if they where WC they are from 2 completely different regions.. does any one else see why this is a bad idea?
Brian


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## Philsuma

Everyone seems to want a community tank of this or that...

Never works for a myriad of reasons.

I've kept both _Anolis_ and _Dendrobates_. Stress from everyday living, daily movement and food aquisition are going to take it's toll and someone is, at best, not going to thrive and more than likely, perish.

You BEST chance would be a heavily planted 90 gallon or bigger with one or two _bark Anolis_, selected for their small size and their gecko-like amusing scurrying...and then possibly 2 terrestrial _Dedrobates_ such as _Leucomelas _or _Auratus_ which are tough, good feeding frogs that will possibly take a tiny cricket or two and conversly ,not be overly bothered by a stray cricket or two in the event they will not eat them

Animal stress....it's a MF'er.....  

Oh..BTW...think about _Phelsuma Klemeri_, now that I caught myself. They can eat fruit babyfood and FF's and are actually smaller than _Anolis_.....a better choice AND more colorful with yellow and green.


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## hobbyuniverse

Philsuma said:


> and then possibly 2 terrestrial Dedrobates such as Leucomelas or Auratus
> 
> 
> 
> I thought leucs were climbers. Is this not correct? Im putting a few in my terrarium and I built it with climbers in mind. Sorry to jack your thread...
Click to expand...


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## Philsuma

Leucs are going to climb a little, especially when younger but I think they are considered a terrestrial species. Heavy-bodied and using more horizontal space....


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## zBrinks

We have to keep in mind that 'terrestrial' does not mean that the frog will utilize only 'ground space', but most likely the lower 36'' or so as well.


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## Philsuma

> We have to keep in mind that 'terrestrial' does not mean that the frog will utilize only 'ground space', but most likely the lower 36'' or so as well.


Exactly..."Terrestrial"....meaning MOSTLY occupying the lower level of an enclosure....not "Truely" terrestrial.....hope thats clear as terrestrial mud now.....lol


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## jeffreyvmd

To be honest, I have had a few friends who have tried anoles with dart frogs and have only been frustrated. 2 of them had rather large enclosures but had dart frog deaths that may be attributed to stress. The third was using a 65 hex and had issues with skinny dart frogs until they removed the anoles at which point they started doing better. In each case, there was only a single type, ie leucs, of dart frog. 

Jeff


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## Otis

> Most anoles are WC and most darts are CB and even if they where WC they are from 2 completely different regions.. does any one else see why this is a bad idea?


i agree, there's a huge problem with that. plus there's just no point.


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## Philsuma

> i agree, there's a huge problem with that. plus there's just no point.


1. _Anolis Capito, A. Humilis _and _A. Limifons_ are all found in the same area as _Dendrobates Auratus_....Costa Rica.

2. And by problem, I am also assuming you mean from disease and parasites ect coming from the Anole and passed to the frog. I highly doubt that, but I have no academic science or biology background.

3.As to no point......there is an _obvious_ point to having community enclosures from an asthetic viewpoint and possibly from a scientific one. Most are not going to be viable but that doesn't mean that a responsible, informed and intelligent attempt should never be made.

99% of all dart frog keepers agree, that mixed frog species tanks should be avoided, especially for beginners, as do I, but a large vivarium with a single small size _Anolis _or _Phelsuma_ can be attempted provided that one be attentive to possible stress and then seperate the animals if problems occur.


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## Otis

1.


> Anolis Capito, A. Humilis and A. Limifons are all found in the same area as Dendrobates Auratus....Costa Rica.


If the darts are cb, then they are probably comming from the states not Costa Rica, so the fact that they live together in the wild only enables them to have the same kind of viv with the same temps, humidity... it has nothing to do with the pathogens that either species has. 

2.


> And by problem, I am also assuming you mean from disease and parasites ect coming from the Anole and passed to the frog. I highly doubt that, but I have no academic science or biology background.


Why do you highly doubt that? if the anole is wc it will have parasites and if they are kept in the same cage the dart will get whatever the anole has eventually. 

3.


> As to no point......there is an obvious point to having community enclosures from an asthetic viewpoint and possibly from a scientific one. Most are not going to be viable but that doesn't mean that a responsible, informed and intelligent attempt should never be made.


I guess what I meant by no point is, there is no reasonable point. IMO just making a viv look cool is not enough to risk the healthy of any of the inhabitants. And how scientific? see if one eats the other? thats just an experiment, not science. 

4.


> 99% of all dart frog keepers agree, that mixed frog species tanks should be avoided, especially for beginners, as do I, but a large vivarium with a single small size Anolis or Phelsuma can be attempted provided that one be attentive to possible stress and then seperate the animals if problems occur.


But the tank isn't huge, it's 2'x2'x15'' and this person is a beginner so thats is pretty irrevalent.


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## Philsuma

> If the darts are cb, then they are probably comming from the states not Costa Rica, so the fact that they live together in the wild only enables them to have the same kind of viv with the same temps, humidity... it has nothing to do with the pathogens that either species has.


Your original argument was that the _Anolis _and "Dart frogs" were from "Different regions". Nobody except you assumed that the OP meant any of the 1 native Florida and 10 introduced Anoles.



> Why do you highly doubt that? if the anole is wc it will have parasites and if they are kept in the same cage the dart will get whatever the anole has eventually.


I just don't think that "anything the anole has" will be passed to the frog. The two animals in question have very different biological systems (Amphibian and Reptile) but again, it appears neither one of us has any hard information or academic background, so this part of the argument kinda falls down for us both.



> I guess what I meant by no point is, there is no reasonable point. IMO just making a viv look cool is not enough to risk the healthy of any of the inhabitants. And how scientific? see if one eats the other? thats just an experiment, not science.


I guarantee a bark anole or Small day gecko is not going to eat even a 3-4 month old Tinc type frog. 



> But the tank isn't huge, it's 2'x2'x15'' and this person is a beginner so thats is pretty irrevalent.


By the very purpose of this forum - Education and Information, the OP has already been advised (by me) that a much larger vivarium is needed. Would you rather he have "performed an experiment" and never sought out help and guidence by posting here?


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## Otis

> Your original argument was that the Anolis and "Dart frogs" were from "Different regions". Nobody except you assumed that the OP meant any of the 1 native Florida and 10 introduced Anoles.


Still not relavent, one is wc and the other is cb. So unless you are getting them from somebody who breeds anoles and frogs they are going to both carry different pathogens. 



> I just don't think that "anything the anole has" will be passed to the frog. The two animals in question have very different biological systems (Amphibian and Reptile) but again, it appears neither one of us has any hard information or academic background, so this part of the argument kinda falls down for us both.


We don't need to have experience with this personally to know that if two animals are put in the same tank they both will end up having the same pathogens. This is a fact, even if they inhabit different areas of the tank, there is mircofauna in all natural vivs. Sprigs, isopods, grindel worms ect all eat poop and inhabit most parts of the tank. And just because the anoels are arboreal it does not mean they never go on the ground, and just because the tincs are terrestrial it does not mean they don't climb. My tincs go all over the glass daily. When a tank is misted the poop gets washed down to the bottom, thats why a lot of people mist, to clean off the plants so if the anole poops up higher it will eventually make it's way down. Not to mention the fruit flies or crickets being fed will spread whatever is in the poop. 

Think of it on a people basis, if one person has meningitas or some other highly contagious disease and is roommates with another person, chances are the roommate will catch it. And with the animals, whatever pathogens they have will not go away. That is one of the reasons why many zoos have a separate room for quarentining animals, disease spreads. Even from tank to tank, and certainly within the same tank. 



> I guarantee a bark anole or Small day gecko is not going to eat even a 3-4 month old Tinc type frog.


You still didn't answer my question, how is it scientific? I have no problem with doing expiroments that have not been done before, but doing the same one over and hoping for different results is just shooting in the dark. 



> By the very purpose of this forum - Education and Information, the OP has already been advised (by me) that a much larger vivarium is needed. Would you rather he have "performed an experiment" and never sought out help and guidence by posting here?


I am not by any means saying that this person should not have posted, I just want to make sure that this person gets the correct answer and I'm not really sure why you were under the impression.


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## Brian Ferriera

> And by problem, I am also assuming you mean from disease and parasites ect coming from the Anole and passed to the frog. I highly doubt that, but I have no academic science or biology background.


Heres my problum..I am willing to bet that an anole chould very easly carry chytrid into the tank..something no one whant to deal with



> 3.As to no point......there is an _obvious_ point to having community enclosures from an asthetic viewpoint a\


If you need to add more asthetics to a dart frog tank nothing is going to make you happy..it be much easer to set up 2 tanks..1 for anolis and 1 for darts you whould not need nearley as mutch room. 

Brian


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## Philsuma

> Still not relavent, one is wc and the other is cb. So unless you are getting them from somebody who breeds anoles and frogs they are going to both carry different pathogens.


OK, lets just close out the WC vs CB argument. Everyone here agrees that animals should be CB for optium health and least risk of "pathogens", not to mention all the conservation issues...so, both animals should be CB.


> We don't need to have experience with this personally to know that if two animals are put in the same tank they both will end up having the same pathogens. This is a fact, even if they inhabit different areas of the tank, there is mircofauna in all natural vivs. Sprigs, isopods, grindel worms ect all eat poop and inhabit most parts of the tank. And just because the anoels are arboreal it does not mean they never go on the ground, and just because the tincs are terrestrial it does not mean they don't climb. My tincs go all over the glass daily. When a tank is misted the poop gets washed down to the bottom, thats why a lot of people mist, to clean off the plants so if the anole poops up higher it will eventually make it's way down. Not to mention the fruit flies or crickets being fed will spread whatever is in the poop.


Yes yes....we all know about the deposition / location of the _Anolis_ feces and how microfauna behaves in vivariums.

For the THIRD time...when you say "Pathogens" please be more specific. Do you mean salmonellae or perhaps chytrid ? If you (or anyone else) can cite some data on just what pathogens can be transfered from the Anole to the frog, I would be very interested. I haven't read anything that suggests chytrid can come from reptiles.....have you?



> Think of it on a people basis, if one person has meningitas or some other highly contagious disease and is roommates with another person, chances are the roommate will catch it. And with the animals, whatever pathogens they have will not go away. That is one of the reasons why many zoos have a separate room for quarentining animals, disease spreads. Even from tank to tank, and certainly within the same tank.


Again,please cite the type of pathogen that is "highly contagious" that will be passed from the Anole to the frog.

Zoos and most hobbyists realize the value of Quarentine tanks as well as proper disenfectant.
Most zoos have reptile / Amphibian species tanks....what do you think about those?



> You still didn't answer my question, how is it scientific? I have no problem with doing expiroments that have not been done before, but doing the same one over and hoping for different results is just shooting in the dark.


I keep reptiles and amphibians with the aim of captive breeding and I take it as a compliment when they breed as it tells me their needs have been met and I'm doing a decent job of husbandry.
I also enjoy their beauty and grace and I believe it brings me closer to God.
Finally, I approach every aspect of the animal and it's care with a eye to constantly learning about it and passing , sharing my triumphs and failures with anyone else who cares.
If that isn't at all scientific to you...I don't know what is.


_I am not by any means saying that this person should not have posted, I just want to make sure that this person gets the correct answer and I'm not really sure why you were under the impression._

And your answer is the correct one? 

Is there an absolute correct answer?


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## Otis

> For the THIRD time...when you say "Pathogens" please be more specific. Do you mean salmonellae or perhaps chytrid ? If you (or anyone else) can cite some data on just what pathogens can be transfered from the Anole to the frog, I would be very interested. I haven't read anything that suggests chytrid can come from reptiles.....have you?


Pathogens: hookworm, lungworm, coccidia, mites, tapeworms, there is a lot that are transferable. I just dont want to list them every time I say pathogens. Not to mention bacterial infections and virusus. What makes you think they aren't transferable? Hookworms don't discriminate, a host is a host and anoles are similiar enough to frogs that they can transfer. 



> Again,please cite the type of pathogen that is "highly contagious" that will be passed from the Anole to the frog.


See above. 



> Zoos and most hobbyists realize the value of Quarentine tanks as well as proper disenfectant.
> Most zoos have reptile / Amphibian species tanks....what do you think about those?


I think some of them are good, some are bad, but you will get that anywhere. The difference is that this person isn't a zoo, they don't have enclosures large enough to comfortable house both species so again, irrevalent. And also, zoos are doing quarentine, haven't you seen the pics of their intense quarentine facilities, separate misters, food, cleaning supplies for every single animal. So when they are putting the animals together both are healthy, so what are you arguing about? This proves nothing. 



> I also enjoy their beauty and grace and I believe it brings me closer to God.


Lets keep this scientific not religous. 



> Finally, I approach every aspect of the animal and it's care with a eye to constantly learning about it and passing , sharing my triumphs and failures with anyone else who cares.
> If that isn't at all scientific to you...I don't know what is.


Again, I have no problem with doing something that hasn't been done before in the name of science, but people have tried this on a private basis (this does not include zoos, aquariums...) and the results are not good. I just don't see the point of repeating an experiment and thinking you will get different results when none of the variables have changed.


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## Philsuma

> Pathogens: hookworm, lungworm, coccidia, mites, tapeworms, there is a lot that are transferable. I just dont want to list them every time I say pathogens.


Ok, I'm pretty sure all your examples are parasites and not pathogens. Again, please do a little better and cite an example of anything that someone has documented as "coming from a CB Anolis or Gecko". You are just throwing out names. It is your burden to provide an example here....not mine. Perhaps an Anole could have Avian Flu or West Nile or perhaps I could have it and transfer it to a frog. You just cannot hope to sucessfully post something like..."Don't do it", "wouldn't be prudent", "Been done before and hasn't worked". CITE something or SOMEONE to make me believe you know what the heck you are talking about. If you personally had a bad experience where an Anole ate a frog, harassed a frog to death or ANYTHING else...please post it. 



> The difference is that this person isn't a zoo


Not now he isn't .He could be a 15 year old boy from Manchester, but SOMEDAY he just may RUN or OWN a zoo. Wouldn't it be great if an Anole and a Dart frog and Dendroboard were directly responsible for this?



> haven't you seen the pics of their intense quarentine facilities, separate misters, food, cleaning supplies for every single animal. So when they are putting the animals together both are healthy, so what are you arguing about? This proves nothing


Yep. I've been on the backside of every frog exhibit at the National Aquarium in Baltimore several times. They do a decent job of quarantine and off exhibit care but I think the word "intense" is a little too strong. I have seen private collections in smaller enclosures worth tens of thousands of dollars with healthy, breeding animals. I have also seen twelve year olds with thumbnails in a small exoterra in their bedrooms...all healthy. You do not have to be a Zoo to have healthy animals, excellent quarantine facilities or a large viv. Whats YOUR argument here?



> I also enjoy their beauty and grace and I believe it brings me closer to God.
> 
> Lets keep this scientific not religous.


That was a comment from my personal reasons for keeping animals and not even close to a new argument but it is interesting that you chose to take offense to it.



> Again, I have no problem with doing something that hasn't been done before in the name of science


So you consider that "someone" or "some people" have done this before and failed and you see fit to close the book on it? Wow.....and you can't even speak from personal knowledge!



> and the results are not good


Please post the link for this data...source?...Magazine, Journal?


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## jdart16

Hmmm you should also do your research before you start calling someone out. There is just no GOOD reason to do this how does it benefit either the dart or the anole?

It may not be a leuc or auratus but it is a dart.

"_After discussing waht would be a good frog in it that would be consistent with the setting i choose the dendorbates imitator. I was worried about the combination with the anoles, but the breeder kept some phelsumas together with this tiny frog, which convinced me enough. 3 days later the stressfull message came from my wife that the anole had a frog in its mouth_"

Website- http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e05.html

It can happen and has happened more reason as to why this is not a benefitial relationship.

Justin


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## Otis

I am not going to repeat what they say in these articles/threads, just read them yourself. And really read them, don't just skim them. 
http://amphibiancare.com/frogs/articles/communitytank.html
http://exoticpets.about.com/od/reptilesandamphibians/f/mixingspecies.htm
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/35374-mixing-species-please-read.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/beginner-discussion/topic4532.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/general-health-disease-treatment/topic36707.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/general-discussion/topic17217.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/general-health-disease-treatment/topic12955.html


> Ok, I'm pretty sure all your examples are parasites and not pathogens


I said plus viruses and bacterial infections.



> Not now he isn't .He could be a 15 year old boy from Manchester, but SOMEDAY he just may RUN or OWN a zoo. Wouldn't it be great if an Anole and a Dart frog and Dendroboard were directly responsible for this?


yeah, but he's not. and he doesn't have the space, so while he may some day he doens't now. 



> You do not have to be a Zoo to have healthy animals, excellent quarantine facilities or a large viv. Whats YOUR argument here?


no argument, just that we should try and mimic what the zoos are doing, they are the people who know the most about this stuff so i think we should do what they do, just like anything. learn from the best. 



> So you consider that "someone" or "some people" have done this before and failed and you see fit to close the book on it? Wow.....and you can't even speak from personal knowledge!


look above, and what exactly are you basing your argument on? i have yet to see you site anything. and i mean text, not what you have seen at zoos or whatever because i have been to zoos also. find an articile about why you should mix written by someone who has published anything who works at a zoo. 

as far as me speaking from personal experience, i am happy i cannot speak from personal experience.


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## Philsuma

> Hmmm you should also do your research before you start calling someone out.


Justin,
I have HAD a Phelsuma Klemmeri and an Auratus in a heavily planted 80 gallon with both eating and growing and I have seen no signs of aggression. I think personal knowledge and experience is considered research.

Thanks for finding and posting an example ,even if it's not the greatest .

Now lets discuss if there are any glaring problems with that Anole / Frog example you found:
1. The frog was "TINY". This started out badly. 
2. That _Anolis _looked like a large male _Anolis carolinensis_....and probably WC to boot!

My suggestion was for a 3-4 month old, OR preferably older,tinc or Auratus and a single SMALL Klemmeri or possibly a _Anolis distichus_. You can find those all over Broward Co and they are easy to breed.I think things could have gone better.Please don't hang your hat on this one bad example that began with obvious poor planning.

I also no longer have my Klemmeri and Auratus together for a few other reasons. I have yet to read a posting where someone was advocating the wholesale mixing of anoles and frogs or geckos and frogs and touting it as the way to go.

Look at my first posting and notice how I DO NOT RECOMMEND a community vivarium. I am NOT advocating it, only trying to give a little advice from my previous experience. IF the OP is going to attempt it, I at least want to prevent that which you cited, Justin. Can't that be considered helpful without being an endorsement?

I just cannot accept someone's post saying "Don't do that", "Been done before and didn't work" either. The OP is owed a little more than that don't you think?

And as to what the benefits there are to the Lizard / frog proximity?
How about....no chance of cross breeding and producing mutant offspring? 8) 

The real question is....If there is adequate food intake and limited stress (remember this IS a vivarium so there is always some stressors)......what are the Negatives?


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## Philsuma

> http://amphibiancare.com/frogs/articles/communitytank.html
> http://exoticpets.about.com/od/reptiles ... pecies.htm
> http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/ ... -read.html
> beginner-discussion/topic4532.html
> general-health-disease-treatment/topic36707.html
> general-discussion/topic17217.html
> general-health-disease-treatment/topic12955.html


Thank you.

The last time I was in baltimore, there was a _bothrops schlegeli_ (Captive bred there) in one of their displays with some frogs.MOST zoos have some frog exhibits with reptiles or fish.


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## jdart16

I am enjoying this quite a bit you are bringing up valid points.

Questions for you.
1.) I am still looking for reasons as to how this benefits or is good for either animal? I enjoyed your answer but I am trying to make the reason for mixing as weak as possible.
2.)I see how you are trying to bring up valid points but to someone who does not read fully into this thread it seems as if you support the mixing.
3.)What were your reasons for seperating them?
4.)We have overlooked viv size what is your opinion on this?


it is the example you requested nonetheless if it does not meet your exact standards it still shows the negative side effects and it may also help that it was mentioned. Not completely useless :wink: 


I am open to what you are saying and I am not "hanging my hat"


Justin


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## kristy55303

i can only see this discussion going down the wrong road. darts belong with darts, nothing else. thats my opinion. darts of the same species/morph specifically as well. Never would i even consider putting anoles, no matter how big the viv is, in my tank. Not trying to bust anyones bubble here, but this subject has long been debated in the past. You are looking at different requirements per species, different diseases that can be harmful, and stress on the darts. Like i said, this is my opinion. kristy


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## Otis

thats what i've been saying  hmmm...philsuma


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## kristy55303

otis07 said:


> thats what i've been saying  hmmm...philsuma


exactly...and lets not get started on the zoos displays. thats another debate i'd rather keep my head out of. :wink: kristy


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## Otis

i'm with you on that one kristy.


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## kristy55303

lol :lol: emily...these are two big cans of worms! kristy


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## Matt020593

otis07 said:


> Still not relavent, one is wc and the other is cb. So unless you are getting them from somebody who breeds anoles and frogs they are going to both carry different pathogens.


I breed my Anoles so the ones that would be living in the mixed species vivarium would be CB
So that cancels out the CB vs WC argument.

Due to the advice been given, it would seem I don't have the experience required to attempt this and I have decided against keeping Anoles and PDFs together in the vivarium I mentioned earlier. But, when I have had a bit more experience with PDFs, I will look into trying this in a well planted 4'Hx3'Lx2'D.



> Not now he isn't .He could be a 15 year old boy from Manchester, but SOMEDAY he just may RUN or OWN a zoo. Wouldn't it be great if an Anole and a Dart frog and Dendroboard were directly responsible for this?


Close I'm from Leeds.


Thank you for this huge amount of information. 

Matt


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## Otis

> I breed my Anoles so the ones that would be living in the mixed species vivarium would be CB
> So that cancels out the CB vs WC argument.


You're right, I didn't know you bred them, not a lot of people do for how popular anoles are. 

I think not doing this in a smaller tank is a great idea, with the larger size mentioned it would work better. Just make sure you have the larger tinc sized frogs. And if you decide not to have anoles mourning geckos go well with darts.


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## Philsuma

> Due to the advice been given, it would seem I don't have the experience required to attempt this and I have decided against keeping Anoles and PDFs together in the vivarium I mentioned earlier. But, when I have had a bit more experience with PDFs, I will look into trying this in a well planted 4'Hx3'Lx2'D.


Bravo....well done Matt. I take it the information presented by all was helpful to you.That's what we are here for afterall, despite any different opinions.

Leeds huh? How did I even get that close? It' been quite a few years since I was in the UK, but I guess I am still pretty good on picking up cyber-accents. Now if you are close to 15 years old, LMK and then I'm going straight out to buy a few lottery tickets.

Justin:



> 1.) I am still looking for reasons as to how this benefits or is good for either animal? I enjoyed your answer but I am trying to make the reason for mixing as weak as possible.


It's hard to qualify what is "good" or benefits ANY combination of lizards and frogs. I know of no communal advantage that even exists in nature. Would feeding behavior of the one animal increase the ease of prey aquisition of the other by way of stirring up insects that the other would then be able to more easily capture? I have no argument for any "benefits" instead I would choose to concentrate on removing any NEGATIVE aspects of husbandry. Look for ways to minimize stress ect. Why must you make the debate "as weak as possible"? Shouldn't you just try to bolster the con argument thru cites and examples. You did provide a good reason why a novice hobbyist with a small tank, small frog and large WC anole did not do well, which was helpful.



> 3.)What were your reasons for seperating them?


Good question. I was more worried about the gecko more than the frog. I have frog tanks with such high levels of microfauna that sometimes I wonder if they could not become self sustaining, self "feeding" even for adult frogs. The same cannot be done with Geckos. Their metabolism requires much more dilligence with regards to feeding and their prey size should be larger and more substantial than Melanogaster. I was concerned because other than "hand feedings", I was unsure the gecko was obtaining enough "foraging" food.Even with babyfood and trying different "easy" food items, I was not willing to put a such a large amount of time into such a large tank with two small residents. This is not to say that I consider it a failure...just much more time and effort intensive.



> I am open to what you are saying and I am not "hanging my hat"


Thanks for being engaging and not hanging.  



> You're right, I didn't know you bred them, not a lot of people do for how popular anoles are.
> 
> I think not doing this in a smaller tank is a great idea, with the larger size mentioned it would work better. Just make sure you have the larger tinc sized frogs. And if you decide not to have anoles mourning geckos go well with darts.


Emily, you put me through all that and now you do the U-Turn??? ..lol....it's ok as long as Matt from Croydon...uh...Leeds got some information that was helpful.

Justin, are you going to the timonium Mid atlantic show sept 13/14? I'll be there.

Phil


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## kristy55303

otis07 said:


> I breed my Anoles so the ones that would be living in the mixed species vivarium would be CB
> So that cancels out the CB vs WC argument.
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, I didn't know you bred them, not a lot of people do for how popular anoles are.
> 
> I think not doing this in a smaller tank is a great idea, with the larger size mentioned it would work better. Just make sure you have the larger tinc sized frogs. And if you decide not to have anoles mourning geckos go well with darts.
Click to expand...

i'm still on the other side of the fence. this will be my last post to this, no worries. darts belong with darts of the same morph/species. cb or wc.....does not make any difference. just because they are cb doesnt mean anything pertaining to what i was trying to get across. good luck. kristy


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## jdart16

The purpose for making the pro argument as weak as possible is to make the con one even stronger.

Ha ha North East PA is a town in the northwest tip of Pa complete opposite side of the state.
Unless Im in for 10 hours of driving I think not :wink: 

Justin


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## DocChris

I love a passionate argument here, because people put in more information when they are defending their opinions than one normally sees with the normal "here's your answer, live with it" approach to newbie questions. 

I do have a clarification and an observation to add:

1) Pathogens are organisms which cause disease. Parasites are organisms which rely on a host for access to its needs for survival and reproduction. Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis is a bacteria which exists as a parasite in the African Clawed Frog, however, in innumberable other species, it causes Chytriomycosis, the disease we refer to as Chytrid, and is routinely fatal. Thus B. dendrobatidis is a parasite as well as a pathogen. 

2) To address the question of benefit to darts of having anoles in their viv. Isn't the purpose of this hobby to promote conservation and preservation of the species of darts? What good does it do to keep the frogs alive if we don't also work to preserve their ability to function in their native environment, where they have to interact with the other inhabitants of the rainforest? 

I apologize for being argumentative, sort of... I love playing devil's advocate, and certain portions or my anatomy are excessively educated....

Chris


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## jdart16

Valid points.

But as far as being part of the natural environment.

These species aren't going to interact at all normally and especially not as often as they do in a small viv.
Correct me if I'm wrong but anoles dwell higher up in trees while the species of dart we are discussing are on ground level. 

So do they interact possibly but it is not an everyday occurance.

When put together in a viv this interaction is forced in the wild if they choose to they can avoid each other not so in a viv.

You are almost stating it as if they are well....buddies :wink: 


Justin


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## Otis

It's not like they like to interact with animals 5 times their size, and I certainly don't think this is doing anything to promote the conservation. If you look at professional breeders they don't have mixed species tanks, and I bet theres a good reason for that. 


> Emily, you put me through all that and now you do the U-Turn??? ..lol....it's ok as long as Matt from Croydon...uh...Leeds got some information that was helpful.


I'm not, I just don't like repeating the same info all over again and I feel like thats what im doing.


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## Philsuma

Chris,

Pathogens or Parasites or anything else. Can an _Anolis _carry and cause to be transfered to the frog, Chytrid or anything else?

We should stop using the word "benefit". Benefit implies communial, social or some other advantageous relationship. A pack animal like a cainine obtains a benefit from another animal or packmate in close proximity. I doubt any frog or lizard ever gets lonely or would enjoy any other animal in it's viv. Many successful gecko breeders start with introducing a male into an enclosure occupied by a lone female kept by herself at all other times of the year. It is well known that "less is better" as a rule of thumb for most all herp husbandry specie quantities. 

I get a *Whole lot more* out of this hobby than conservation and preservation.



> What good does it do to keep the frogs alive if we don't also work to preserve their ability to function in their native environment, where they have to interact with the other inhabitants of the rainforest?


They function pretty darn good in their environment and have been doing so without human "help" for quite a while. I think you mean habitat preservation and what we can do to not harm the environment. For me personally, knowing how they breed in captivity and all their conditions that I met up until that point is about as far as I can go without personally studying them in the wild, which I have also done and will continue to do.

My Leucs have called 4 times, from two different males as I am typing this and its truly magical.

Justin, I'm familiar with almost all of southern PA from West to East (not sure thats even a Good thing) and I've never heard of "North East" but I am guilty of ASSuming it was in the...well...North East. :roll: Too bad because that show is one of the best on the East coast for Frogs.



> The purpose for making the pro argument as weak as possible is to make the con one even stronger.


I wish I would have taken a class or two on debating. When I was in HS, the debate team did not get any girls....has that changed?


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## Philsuma

> It's not like they like to interact with animals 5 times their size.


P. Klemmeri - Total length 90mm.
D.Tinctorious Total length 65mm for some morphs.

And I bet the weight is close to being equal. 


> and I certainly don't think this is doing anything to promote the conservation


Conservation may be your main reason for keeping frogs but it's not mine.I don't think everyone on this board is aiming for conservation.


> If you look at professional breeders they don't have mixed species tanks, and I bet theres a good reason for that.


Its obvious that requirements for breeding for maximum healthy commercial output are completely different from keeping a large exquisitely planted "Dutch" vivarium in one's living room for visitors to ooh and ahh over. Google and read some articles by Phillippe de Vasjoli who is both a "commercial frog breeder" and a hobbyist.


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## Otis

We are talking about anoles, not phlesuma. 


> They function pretty darn good in their environment and have been doing so without human "help" for quite a while. I think you mean habitat preservation and what we can do to not harm the environment. For me personally, knowing how they breed in captivity and all their conditions that I met up until that point is about as far as I can go without personally studying them in the wild, which I have also done and will continue to do.


There was a discussion about this on frognet, and if culling should be done in captivity, to make it more natural. Relating this to this discussion, we CANNOT mirror the conditions these animals have in the wild, it is impossible to have that much mircofauna, biodiversity, and space in a tank. Animals have parasites in the wild, but people don't introduce them to their tanks to make it more natural. So if you are truly concerned about making the environment more natural for the frog then you would need a lot more. You would need a few different lights, dimmer swithces, a misting system that you manually changed to match the daily rainfall and mistings. You would need to culture hundreds of different kinds of bugs to satisfy the variety of insects these animals eat in the wild, plus the plants, trees, wood...

My point is, there are many other aspects of a vivarium that can be make the vivarium more natural for it's inhabitants, but introducing another animal should be on the bottom of the list. 



> Pathogens or Parasites or anything else. Can an Anolis carry and cause to be transfered to the frog, Chytrid or anything else?


the answer is still yes for the parasites. I have no idea about chytrid, you'de have to ask Ed or Brent.


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## Philsuma

> My point is, there are many other aspects of a vivarium that can be make the vivarium more natural for it's inhabitants, but introducing another animal should be on the bottom of the list.


If you don't have a lot of experience with herps especially frogs, then you are absolutely right! Concentrate on the myriad of basic needs to include breeding,before even considering different animals. We all agree about experience and first things first.

I think everyone was going to let the OP know that he needed a boatload of frog experience before he starts and I think he acknowledged that. He found the answers and the flaws in his design fairly quickly by posting on this board.


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## Otis

We actually agree on something, yeah!


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## Philsuma

> We actually agree on something, yeah!


lol...took a little while huh?

You are also correct by stating that this has been debated many times before and I'm sure it will continue long after we are gone.

It's always good to find people who are passionate and concerned about animals.

BTW, you have a very nice website...the Gecko care sheets are well done.

Regards,

Phil


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## Otis

> lol...took a little while huh?


na, I wouldn't say so :wink: 
Thank you, and I think it will be updated very soon with a Mixing Species articile


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## Philsuma

> Thank you, and I think it will be updated very soon with a Mixing Species articile


Can't wait! 8)


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## jehitch

jdart16 said:


> Hmmm you should also do your research before you start calling someone out. There is just no GOOD reason to do this how does it benefit either the dart or the anole?
> 
> It may not be a leuc or auratus but it is a dart.
> 
> "_After discussing waht would be a good frog in it that would be consistent with the setting i choose the dendorbates imitator. I was worried about the combination with the anoles, but the breeder kept some phelsumas together with this tiny frog, which convinced me enough. 3 days later the stressfull message came from my wife that the anole had a frog in its mouth_"
> 
> Website- http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e05.html
> Justin


I once put a Bahamian anole in with a White's tree frog that I thought was too fat and lazy to climb. The next day there was only a frog in the tank.
That evens the score to Anoles: 1; Frogs: 1


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## Philsuma

Cuban Tree Frogs are Anole eating machines too......it's not always the poor frog....lol


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## Matt020593

Whites tree frogs will eat anything so I have heard.
But I have had success with Anoles and American Green Tree frogs as they both inhabit similar areas in the wild and have similar snout to vent lengths(so have a few others that have tried it). But that's a whole different mixing topic :lol: 



Philsuma said:


> Due to the advice been given, it would seem I don't have the experience required to attempt this and I have decided against keeping Anoles and PDFs together in the vivarium I mentioned earlier. But, when I have had a bit more experience with PDFs, I will look into trying this in a well planted 4'Hx3'Lx2'D.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leeds huh? How did I even get that close? It' been quite a few years since I was in the UK, but I guess I am still pretty good on picking up cyber-accents. Now if you are close to 15 years old, LMK and then I'm going straight out to buy a few lottery tickets.
Click to expand...

 :lol: I am 15. Anything else you want to guess?


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## Philsuma

> I am 15. Anything else you want to guess?


NOWAY :shock: 

Ok...let me channel a little bit here....

You once had a cat named treacle and there is a Hedgehog living in your parents garden.

Welcome to the Forum Matt! You will find most information you need here and as always, don't be afraid to ask any questions.

Cheers,

Phil


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## Matt020593

Philsuma said:


> NOWAY :shock:
> 
> Ok...let me channel a little bit here....
> 
> You once had a cat named treacle and there is a Hedgehog living in your parents garden.
> 
> Welcome to the Forum Matt! You will find most information you need here and as always, don't be afraid to ask any questions.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Phil


No, we had a hedgehog once in our garden, I think.
Thanks for the informatioin.


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