# Missing Blue Jeans for MADS meeting today!!!!



## rcteem

ATTENTION!!!!

I just wanted to say that I had a pair of Blue Jeans go missing at the meet. I realize that this was probably an accident but please send them back to me. We have someone who saw you take them and didnt think anything about it until I reported them missing. I am holding no hard feelings towards you and no questions asked. If you are to scared to let me know please feel free to PM Ray, Julio, Michael in NY, Scott, or Roman. I promise no hard feelings will be held against you again as Im sure it was an accident. I forgot to mention that one of the frogs has an unusual marking that will stand out if seen.


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## rcteem

Please let me know if you hear of anyone trying to sell a probable pair of BJ's in the NE area and Ohio/ WV.


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## Philsuma

Terrible....just terrible.

Chris....get me as much info as you have. As much as I have going on right now....this has to be looked at quickly as well.

Scott's gatherings are a favourite of mine for a long time now. I feel like someone stole *my frogs* after reading this.


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## poison beauties

That seems to be your luck as of late. Good luck with getting them back Chris. 

Michael


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## frogface

This is outrageous. Seriously. 

btw, I saw your joke Michael, and, I laughed. Erm, I mean I was flabbergasted that you would make such a joke!


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## fleshfrombone

Wow dude that's weak as shit.


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## Brotherly Monkey

RC, it might be better to post this to the "general discssion" section of the forum, being that this one doesn't show up in the "new posts" menu


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## pl259

Brotherly Monkey said:


> RC, it might be better to post this to the "general discssion" section of the forum, being that this one doesn't show up in the "new posts" menu


I agree..........


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## Brotherly Monkey

pl259 said:


> I agree..........


Sorry, i could have sworn this was posted in the Dome.


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## Enlightened Rogue

Brotherly Monkey said:


> Sorry, i could have sworn this was posted in the Dome.


It was. It was moved here by Eric.

John


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## topherlove

wow!!! Chris i'm sorry that is just ridiculous. They were and are gorgeous frogs


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## Baltimore Bryan

Wow, I'm very sorry to hear that. I checked, all I have are my three new bakhuis  I really hope that this was an honest accident and that you get them back quickly and without any issues.
Keep us updated.
Bryan


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## gary1218

Time to start naming names!!!


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## SMenigoz

As the host of this meeting, I'm truly hoping a mistake happened. See my response under the MADS thread in the Regional section for my thoughts...
Scott


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## UmbraSprite

Absolutely disgusted.

I am now glad I couldn't make the meeting. I additionally can't imagine how Scott feels after inviting everyone into his home. It's a pretty tight group but I know it has been growing by leaps and bounds.

Chris I will definitely keep my eyes and ears out.


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## Dendro Dave

If honest mistake ok, they should figure it out soon and get the frogs back to the owner, no hard feelings. If not...SUPER LAME. Grow a pair, man up and return the frogs. They are giving you an easy dignified way out...take it.


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## rcteem

Here is something Scott posted on the group that I was planning to post. I think it would be safe to say if these frogs arent reported to be found by the end of today they were stolen. But onto the post from Scott, host of the party.

Ok guys, lets deal with the facts (what we know):
1) There were Blue Jeans in 2 small 4oz deli cups. They were located on the washer behind a cooler.
2) I know for a fact that they were there as I picked them up and looked at them. Approximately 30 minutes later, they were missing.
3) I am completely in agreement that a mistake was made and someone inadvertantly placed them in their personal stuff.

Now on to what we don't know:
I opened my house/collection up to all who attended. I have only two scenerios to consider; they were accidently taken or intententionally taken. I REALLY want to believe that #3 happened; everyone should be unloading their possessions by now and can make everything whole again by simply agreeing a mistake happened--I WANT that outcome!


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## rcteem

VENDORS: 

Please beware of someone trying to sell you Blue Jeans. These to frogs are very unique and have pictures of there marking that are uncommon from any other Blue jean I have seen.


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## markpulawski

Chris perhaps you should post those pictures so we can all recognize them. That sucks man!!


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## Enlightened Rogue

I hate to say this, but if someone hasn`t realized by now that they took these by mistake...... I mean really- how do you just put these 2 frogs unknowingly with your belongings and just leave.

I really hope I`m wrong here.

John


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## Dendro Dave

rcteem said:


> Here is something Scott posted on the group that I was planning to post. I think it would be safe to say if these frogs arent reported to be found by the end of today they were stolen. But onto the post from Scott, host of the party.
> 
> Ok guys, lets deal with the facts (what we know):
> 1) There were Blue Jeans in 2 small 4oz deli cups. They were located on the washer behind a cooler.
> 2) I know for a fact that they were there as I picked them up and looked at them. Approximately 30 minutes later, they were missing.
> 3) I am completely in agreement that a mistake was made and someone inadvertantly placed them in their personal stuff.
> 
> Now on to what we don't know:
> I opened my house/collection up to all who attended. I have only two scenerios to consider; they were accidently taken or intententionally taken. I REALLY want to believe that #3 happened; everyone should be unloading their possessions by now and can make everything whole again by simply agreeing a mistake happened--I WANT that outcome!


I think that is the best way approach the situation and handle it.


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## BBoyette

rcteem said:


> Here is something Scott posted on the group that I was planning to post. I think it would be safe to say if these frogs arent reported to be found by the end of today they were stolen. But onto the post from Scott, host of the party.
> 
> Ok guys, lets deal with the facts (what we know):
> 1) There were Blue Jeans in 2 small 4oz deli cups. They were located on the washer behind a cooler.
> 2) I know for a fact that they were there as I picked them up and looked at them. Approximately 30 minutes later, they were missing.
> 3) I am completely in agreement that a mistake was made and someone inadvertantly placed them in their personal stuff.
> 
> Now on to what we don't know:
> I opened my house/collection up to all who attended. I have only two scenerios to consider; they were accidently taken or intententionally taken. I REALLY want to believe that #3 happened; everyone should be unloading their possessions by now and can make everything whole again by simply agreeing a mistake happened--I WANT that outcome!


I saw the blue jeans in that same location when me a Fraser got ready to go. This is a shame, Im not really in the hobby all like I use to be but I still enjoy Scotts meetings and seeing you all. I hope the problem gets fixed and soon.


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## Ed

I also want to point out that by not returning them to Chris, whoever has them, may have put a stop to a lot of people being invited to each other's houses to see the frogs. There were several people there, that after the frogs turned up missing flat out said they would have to reconsider inviting groups to thier house for meetings. 

Ed


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## botanyboy03

WOW, I hope you get them back and this was all a mistake.


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## poison beauties

I say post the guess list and let everyone know. Let them decide because if you dont find out who or get them back it would be nice for all to know who the possibilities are. This will make meet hosts start reconsidering this as Ed says. This kind of issue puts unneeded stress on the host and definitely will take the fun out of the meets if we have to worry about this happening.

Time to buy a set of lockers for local meets I guess.

Michael


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## angry gary

there is nothing i can add to what has already been said. i was there and had a great time meeting everyone. but for someone to STEAL frogs from others in the hobby is bullshit. as a frequent visitor to Scotts house i am very thankful to how he has helped me along in the hobby and how gracious of a host he has been. i now feel kind of sick to my stomach that someone would violate that trust and blatantly steal someone elses frogs. i agree a sticky post should be made on the dendroboard of the missing frogs. and i am in favor of naming names here too. there seems to be a trend starting that needs to stopped NOW! 

AG


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## poison beauties

Or... Throw the meet again and get a polygraph machine setup. Im sure all would contribute to out a thief in the hobby.

Michael


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## angry gary

i figure the thief will not do the right thing and return the frogs. i will donate a little money to chris to help offset the theft of his frogs. i think if all there pitch in we could make a difference. maybe not a difference in trust in everybody but a trust that 99% of us care about our fellow hobbiest.

AG


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## Zombie Frawg

Wow, this is sad and scary. We were considering opening up our house for a small meet in the future (even though we don't have much to show at the moment) but this makes me wonder. I am sure most of the people in this hobby and on DB are stand up folks but it only takes one. I sincerely hope this was a mistake and is rectified today. Good luck.


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## vivlover10

If I had some blue Jean froglets I would give some for free.


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## SMenigoz

poison beauties said:


> I say post the guess list and let everyone know. Let them decide because if you dont find out who or get them back it would be nice for all to know who the possibilities are. This will make meet hosts start reconsidering this as Ed says. This kind of issue puts unneeded stress on the host and definitely will take the fun out of the meets if we have to worry about this happening.
> Time to buy a set of lockers for local meets I guess.
> Michael


Lets try to prevent a witch hunt here people. Dendroboard does not promote that mentality. There's still the remote chance of someone who hasn't inspected their belongings...
There has been an offer of confidentiality extended by one of our moderators for the exchange of frogs back to their owner--if ever there was an opportunity to make a bad situation better, this is it. Now the person needs to take a step...
Scott


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## rcteem

I appriciate everyones generosity to help out. I dont want this to die down though until found so we know who may have taken them. *TO THE PERSON WHO MAY HAVE MY FROGS,* I understand that it was probably be an accident and may be scared to tell me. Ray, stemcellular, has offered to be the middle man and not tell me who it was. If I dont hear from you by 8pm tonight or from one of the middlemen listed I am considering these stolen and rightfully so as Im sure everyone unpacked there frogs last night or at least first thing when they woke up. I hope I can let this situation rest as an accident.please dont prove me wrong.* Also to the person with the frogs, PLEASE DO NOT BE A JACKASS AND RUIN EVERYONE THE CHANCE TO SEE DIFFERENT FROG ROOMS AND A CHANCE FOR US TO SHARE OUR KNOWLEDGE WITH EACH OTHER.*


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## HunterB

rcteem said:


> * Also to the person with the frogs, PLEASE DO NOT BE A JACKASS AND RUIN EVERYONE THE CHANCE TO SEE DIFFERENT FROG ROOMS AND A CHANCE FOR US TO SHARE OUR KNOWLEDGE WITH EACH OTHER.*


my sentiments.....
I haven't heard anything like this since that White Plains incident but now, here we go again


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## eos

Wow... this saddens me... I think it's time to name names foreal. We can't have this type of behavior in our hobby. What a way to ruin DB meets!


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## DCreptiles

I agree with Chris and Scott, a mod did make a great offer and a easy out for whoever did this and should take him up on it. There are a lot of good people feeling the sting of this persons actions. A band wagon is being set up. I urg anyone with info on this or may hav seen something they didn't think looked right to please tell someone they are comfortable giving his info to and I think that maybe someone should directly the possibilitys maybe they can provide more info if not the frogs.


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## angry gary

SMenigoz said:


> Lets try to prevent a witch hunt here people.


damn i already had my pitchfork and torch out getting ready for the hunt!


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## bgmike64

I say, post a list of attendees (screen names). The fun thing about attending these meets is to get on the board and express how much of a great time you had. Everybody usually checks in. If said person is M.I.A. from the board for any length of time, we'll know. They might make a post, but I doubt it if they know that someone knows their identity.

Also, what is the sex of the frog. Sooner or later they will want to make a pair, so, the few who have successfully breed these, a red flag will go off, especially if it's in that region.

I hope they spare themselves the angst and just return the frog. It's not worth it in the long run. I definitely wouldn't want to do business with this person.........


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## poison beauties

SMenigoz said:


> Lets try to prevent a witch hunt here people. Dendroboard does not promote that mentality. There's still the remote chance of someone who hasn't inspected their belongings...
> There has been an offer of confidentiality extended by one of our moderators for the exchange of frogs back to their owner--if ever there was an opportunity to make a bad situation better, this is it. Now the person needs to take a step...
> Scott


I did not say out that person publicly on here. I said we should be aware of all who made the meet. There is a difference. Some hobbyists would like to know. I think we are way passed someone realized they brought the wrong frogs home.

Michael


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## rcteem

bgmike64 said:


> I say, post a list of attendees (screen names). The fun thing about attending these meets is to get on the board and express how much of a great time you had. Everybody usually checks in. If said person is M.I.A. from the board for any length of time, we'll know. They might make a post, but I doubt it if they know that someone knows their identity.
> 
> Also, what is the sex of the frog. Sooner or later they will want to make a pair, so, the few who have successfully breed these, a red flag will go off, especially if it's in that region.
> 
> I hope they spare themselves the angst and just return the frog. It's not worth it in the long run. I definitely wouldn't want to do business with this person.........


They already have a pair...lets just hope by *pm I have a pm from someone. I really hope


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## DCreptiles

I have to agree with scott we cant just run around pointing fingers and throwing names around with out knowing beyond reasonable doubt who it was. but on the other hand this will all come to surface on its own. Just about everyone who attended the meet car pooled with someone else, just about everyone on the board has their home open to the public at any given time. so this tells me if this person attends to keep the frogs they will not be allowing people to view their collection OR plan on selling or trading these frogs off in the near future but since this topic is getting a lot of attention maybe in the far future. This hobby is small enough that the chatter spreads and we will be able to red flag this as soon as it happens. there are not that many people on the board with these frogs nor someone selling a lot of them. so everyone just keep your eyes and ears out for this and before purchasing or trading for these frogs ask questions where did they come from who did you get them from and check out the story. Just make sure you report your findings to a mod.


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## poison beauties

DCreptiles said:


> I have to agree with scott we cant just run around pointing fingers and throwing names around with out knowing beyond reasonable doubt who it was. but on the other hand this will all come to surface on its own. Just about everyone who attended the meet car pooled with someone else, just about everyone on the board has their home open to the public at any given time. so this tells me if this person attends to keep the frogs they will not be allowing people to view their collection OR plan on selling or trading these frogs off in the near future but since this topic is getting a lot of attention maybe in the far future. This hobby is small enough that the chatter spreads and we will be able to red flag this as soon as it happens. there are not that many people on the board with these frogs nor someone selling a lot of them. so everyone just keep your eyes and ears out for this and before purchasing or trading for these frogs ask questions where did they come from who did you get them from and check out the story. Just make sure you report your findings to a mod.


Derek people hide frogs in this hobby well. Its no different than the lehmanni, histo's, and the other rare or ilegal frogs. They can always be hidden and sold behind closed doors. I think the meet list is atleast a start and Chris you need to post pics of the frogs. 

Michael


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## Ed

Derek,

You forgot one important detail.. people may now choose to now allow others into thier home to view because of this misappropriation of the frogs.. 
So we cannot now go to the point, where we can say someone has those frogs because they will no longer invite people over. 

Hopefully the person returns the frogs and doesn't do something stupid like flush the frogs to avoid the risk of getting caught. 

Ed


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## DCreptiles

In a way you are right ed this may cause people to hesitate to let people into their homes. but some people here in our neck of the woods visit each other often to talk and hang out grab dinner ect... so i mean if someone in a particular group that normally communicates and hangs with people changes the way they act or routine then yeah this may be a indicator that something isnt right. I would hope that this incident does not break the hobby. i firmly believe that this person is panicing from all of the exposer this is getting and yes i do hope they dont harm the frogs in the panic and that there are many outs for this person.

the local froggers visit my place regularly to pick up fruit flys springtails ect.. and check out eggs or tads or froglets i may have available. i just hope this thing gets fixed, but i fear even if the person does return them people will still hesitate to hold meets and open their home. They would have good reason to feel this way. 

i just hopes this gets resolved soon before it starts to divide people and break bonds.


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## Tony

rcteem said:


> We have someone who saw you take them and didnt think anything about it until I reported them missing.


Why not contact that person directly and avoid all the board drama?


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## Philsuma

I'm hearing (all the way from MD to Miami) that there was damn near, an actual witness to this entire incident and that more than just a couple people have some information.

We need to stop the mamby pamby attitude and being afraid, and having to use "crutch" words like Witch hunt. We need to get the word out so that other people don't get ripped off.

This was NO accident....let's all be clear and real about this.


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## poison beauties

Glad to hear that said Phil. The minute someone got home they new they had taken the wrong frogs if it was an accident. And would have contacted someone by the next morning. I think we have issues in a hobby when naming names is frowned upon. 

Michael


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## JoshH

Holy crap.....that is the most rediculous and alarming thing I've seen in the hobby! Especially at an event where everyone is there to socialize and make some friends.....

And I think that if they haven't turned up now than you know it was not a mistake. I can pretty much guarentee that eveyone's frogs are unpacked by now...

Several thoughts:

1. What time did they go missing?
2. A lot of people took photos of everything, I'd say start analyzing them right now.
3. What is the chance that they could have fallen into the trash or accidently got tossed? Is there any possible way they could still be somewhere at Scott's?


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## DCreptiles

We need to look at this situation as a whole. Not piece by piece.

For sure 100% we do know is that a crime was commited and this was NO accident. I think we can all agree whoever deals with frogs gets them into their vivs or temp containers same evening.

What we don't know is Who did it. Some possibilitys have been discussed among different people but NO can say I seen so and so pick them up and pocket them or bag them ect.. Because if this was the case it would of been addressed when it happend and the entire thing laid to rest.

Now as for naming names. This is a matter in which names only need be said once what has happen has been proven. Names and faces shouldn't be thrown around and people be treated differently especially if it truely wasn't them. Yes we have a obligation to each other and this hobby to rule out the bad to keep the hobby good.

But we also owe it to the people who are not guilty the same respect to not throw their name around as a possibility.

But im sure that a few of the smalelr minded folk have already drawn up their conclusions and are well on their way to blowing this thing up.

What is it we are all looking for? Are we looking for chris to get his frogs back safely? Or are we really looking to use this situation as a way to point fingers at someone that we didn't already like?

Last thing anyone wants to do is point fingers accuse someone and then the truth later comes out and a bunch of people look stupid.

Who knows why this was done. Maybe if we spent more time working on why it happend then maybe we can figure out how to get chris	his frogs back.






poison beauties said:


> Derek people hide frogs in this hobby well. Its no different than the lehmanni, histo's, and the other rare or ilegal frogs. They can always be hidden and sold behind closed doors. I think the meet list is atleast a start and Chris you need to post pics of the frogs.
> 
> Michael


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## Baltimore Bryan

JoshH said:


> 1. What time did they go missing?


This is a good point. Scott, you said you saw them about thirty minutes before they went missing, do you know when this occurred? It was after the showing of the pictures from Peru, right?
Bryan


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## SMenigoz

JoshH said:


> Several thoughts:
> 1. What time did they go missing?
> 2. A lot of people took photos of everything, I'd say start analyzing them right now.
> 3. What is the chance that they could have fallen into the trash or accidently got tossed? Is there any possible way they could still be somewhere at Scott's?


Believe me Josh, we tore the room apart immediately after identifying their disappearance. Checked trash cans, behind the dryer...
I received a PM from a guest who stated that they saw two deli cups placed on top of the bowfront tank nearest the stairs. They thought that it may have been around 4pm. They also felt it "may" have been pumilio. I don't remember the timeframe that people started leaving, but this may have merit. Did anyone leave cups on that tank before leaving? 
I'm trying my best to remain rational with this situation. For those who are "out for blood", don't think for one minute I don't feel the same. I'm pissed! I'm pissed that somebody who accepted an invite FROM ME to come to my place has displayed one of the most vile acts that could be done. But tell me, what will displaying the screennames of the attendees do?? Ok, I'll follow that line of thought...I'm SMenigoz and consider me a suspect. Who next to say they were there?
Scott


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## Ed

I'm Ed

and I was there during the meet... 

Is everyone going to do the support group think and say Hi Ed! thing now?


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## mantisdragon91

My name in Roman, and I was having a conversation with Scott and his better half for the twenty or so minutes between the time he last saw them and the time they went missing. In theory I could have been an acessory to distract Scott while the crime( and at this point we all agree it was a crime) occurred.


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## Baltimore Bryan

I was there, but unfortunately I had to leave early so I wasn't able to stay for long. I think I might remember seeing a couple of deli cups on the first tank (was that the azureus bow front? Or am I thinking of a different tank?), but I didn't look in any of them. Also, if I am remembering correctly about the cups, they were there when I left right after the picture presentation started.
Bryan


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## Enlightened Rogue

I`m John and I wasn`t there.

This really shouldn`t be that hard to figure out.
I`m sure the person knows by now the deal here.
It`s not like this was White Plains with a thousand people.
Some how, some way his guilt will be obvious.

John


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## poison beauties

Derek Im all for making sure the innocent go unblamed. But if the frogs never show up, if this never dies do you guys keep it quiet as to who was there and chance it happening again?
We do owe it to the hobby to communicate and keep everyone aware of situations whether good or bad. In my opinion not naming names does two things, it gives the person who did it a free pass from being suspected or even watched in the future and it pretty much means you wont hear from them or the frogs.

Michael


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## JoshH

I was there up to about 4:30 or so, which was the time ToddS, BenE and I started to squeeze a bunch of terrariums into Todds car....then went home.

I never saw the frogs, or any pumilio for that matter; and did not see any cups besides those en mass on the table. Did anyone in particular show any interest in the frogs, as far as looking at them, inspecting, hovering in whatever area they resided in?


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## gyuen

I'm Gon, I was there. Didn't really pay much attention to the bj pair as I already have couple pairs of bj. I did inspect the pair when Chris have them next to the stair, and when he move them on top of the dryer, I didn't really pay any attention to them.


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## DendroJoe

I am Joe. As you all know was the only one sell bromes and spring cultures. Chris and Julio know that I have plenty of blue jeans. And there is a post on the board that I was trying to sell one pair. 
Chris and I have started to become good bodies and we have spend a few hrs talking on the phone recently. Almost everyday upto the meet.


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## SteveKnott

I was there and had a good time. It was great talking with people and seeing a report of the trip to Peru. It was great of Scott to open up his home like that. His wife and him were great hosts. I hope we can all get to the bottom of this in a civilized manner and find out what happened peaceably. If it truly was a crime, which appears likely, we should all try to work together to figure it out. As this kind of thing hurts the hobby as a whole. -steve


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## johnc

I'm John Clare and I was there until about 4:15 or so (I saw tanks being loaded outside by folks). Chris showed me the pair of Blue Jeans a while (30 - 60 mins?) before I left - they were lovely. That's the one time I saw them.


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## DCreptiles

Hi my names Derek I attended the meet. I drove up with Gon and Joe to the meet we hung out in the same area with chris. Also we purchased some tads from another member there and our stuff was placed right next to chris's stuff for the duration of the meet.

Mike if this does not get resolved whihc we all hope it does. But if it doesn't then I do believe that people within our area that do hold these events and take part in our area events can always call or pm scott on a private level and say hey im considering hosting a meet or attending a meet can you provide me with your personal opinion on what happen and who I should consider to becareful around. 

Remeber not everyone here on the board is mature. Some people really want to know because their concerned and will keep the info they get to them selves. Others will play telephone and call up friends and pass it on and this is how rumars not only start but also become inaccurate. 

I think again we should focus more on recovoring these frogs first once the act is un done then focus on bringing the person to justice.

With all the chatter of banning someone from the hobby do you think that this is helping the person feel comfortable about returning the frogs? I don't think it is.. I believe Ray and chris were on the right path by offering a easy way out. Obviously if the person gives the frogs back their identity will be out in the open and it will be up to the person they return them to to decide what to do with that info.

Again I urg the person who did this to find someone they are comfortable with and go to them for gauidance and help and they can contact ray scott or julio and get this issue fixed.


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## poison beauties

All I can guess it that they wont show up. There has been plenty of time for the person to make it right. If they stole the frogs they are deffinitely watching the boards to see whats going on.
By the chance they are returned it will make the need to know who did it worse. People will want to know who to avoid.
Good luck Chris,

Michael


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## angry gary

DCreptiles said:


> With all the chatter of banning someone from the hobby do you think that this is helping the person feel comfortable about returning the frogs? I don't think it is..



please don't equate some asshole who steals and to the ability to have a conscience about doing"the right thing". they already have proven their worth.


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## DCreptiles

I don't believe someone went to scotts home with the intent to do this. Which leads me to hope that it was just something they did that was stupid and out of character and I hope that they will make the right choice and return them to their rightful owner.

Sean stewart had some nice higher end frogs offered up, Jeramy and John c also had their frogs laid out in the back un attended many times, so I honestly don't believe someone did this with hate. They made a mistake by stealing from a fellow frogger its one of those things when a friend is attracted to a friends boyfriend or girlfriend ect.. And if given the chance they do something stupid. We are all just people NO1 is perfect. And if the frogs are given back I am not someone that will take part in a witch hunt because if they are returned that to me is a step in the right direction and will make chris happy. Chris is the victum here and he should have his frogs back AsAP!


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## MSteele

Chris
Sorry to hear what happened. I just went through the 7 pages of replies. I was thing to meet up with you, but I had to leave early. Went to scouts today and got your money for the Tara and frogs. Thanks


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## SMenigoz

DCreptiles said:


> so I honestly don't believe someone did this with hate. They made a mistake by stealing from a fellow frogger its one of those things when a friend is attracted to a friends boyfriend or girlfriend ect.. And if given the chance they do something stupid. We are all just people NO1 is perfect. And if the frogs are given back I am not someone that will take part in a witch hunt because if they are returned that to me is a step in the right direction and will make chris happy. Chris is the victum here and he should have his frogs back AsAP!


Derek,
Please don't insult this community by calling this a MISTAKE. It was theft --plain and simple. To steal from a fellow frogger (your words) ratchets it up to a whole different level.
I can't find the word to sugar coat it...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Scott


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## 21234rick

Wow!

I feel like I should post just to make sure I am not a suspect.

My name is Rick and I was at the meeting. I was at the meeting from 12:30 to about 2:30pm. I left shortly before the slide show. I believe that they didn’t end up missing until well after I was gone. I left with my bag that contained one springtail culture and two bags of cuttings. The only blue jeans I left with were the ones I was wearing! 

My final defense is my ignorance; I don’t even know what blue jean frogs look like


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## JeremyHuff

I left right after Johnc and didn't evens see Scott's pumilio let alone others.


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## sbye

Chris,

Would you, or anyone that was at the meeting, happen to have everybody's emails who attended? If you could get everybody's emails maybe you could send everyone a mass email about the frogs and include your address so whoever stole them could mail them to you. This way if whoever stole them is too embarrassed to hand them over to you or whoever offered to act as the middleman they could mail them anonymously. Just another way that might help get them back. I'm sorry to hear that this happend and I hope the person returns them to you personally and apologizes.

Spencer


----------



## poison beauties

SMenigoz said:


> Derek,
> Please don't insult this community by calling this a MISTAKE. It was theft --plain and simple. To steal from a fellow frogger (your words) ratchets it up to a whole different level.
> I can't find the word to sugar coat it...if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
> Scott


Exactly...

Derek this was likely a crime convenience. I doubt that it would have been as easy to pick up John's or the other frogs the way it sounds. I would hope he gets them back but I know how it go's after many years in the herp hobby.

Michael


----------



## angry gary

DCreptiles said:


> Sean stewart had some nice higher end frogs offered up, Jeramy and John c also had their frogs laid out in the back un attended many times, so I honestly don't believe someone did this with hate. They made a mistake by stealing from a fellow frogger its one of those things when a friend is attracted to a friends boyfriend or girlfriend ect..


i don't know where exactly to begin with this one..done with hate?? no.. simple greed is the answer. and the girlfriend thing?? not the type of friends i would like to associate with.

plain and simple there is NO justification , NO reasoning, NO what ifs...


----------



## jig1

This guy needs to be called out. If not here then maybe somewhere like frognet or somewhere his name can be exposed. This is just horrible to steal from a tightnit group and the situation. Others should be aware of who it is to prevent future dealings with this guy. To do that in someone's home where everyone is "friends" or just "trustworthy" because of such a small tight group is beyond shameful. Ofcourse this is just my opinion


----------



## ridinshotgun

DCreptiles said:


> I don't believe someone went to scotts home with the intent to do this. Which leads me to hope that it was just something they did that was stupid and out of character and I hope that they will make the right choice and return them to their rightful owner.
> 
> Sean stewart had some nice higher end frogs offered up, Jeramy and John c also had their frogs laid out in the back un attended many times, so I honestly don't believe someone did this with hate. They made a mistake by stealing from a fellow frogger its one of those things when a friend is attracted to a friends boyfriend or girlfriend ect.. And if given the chance they do something stupid.


This was no stupid mistake at this point. And yeah while they may not have had the intent to do this when they went to Scott's they damn sure had it when they picked them up and took them with them. No if and or buts about it at that point. 

This is a CRIME that involved a few hundred dollars that is in no way equatable to stealing someones significant other.

DON'T try and rationalize this criminal's act.


----------



## frogface

I'm pretty sure that some of the folk who were there have a good idea of who it was. 

I was not there, yet, I saw some odd board behavior following the meeting and it set off bells for me. I'll be PMing that info to Scott but won't post about it, because, as I said, I wasn't there and this is purely a gut feeling.


----------



## SMenigoz

jig1 said:


> This is just horrible to steal from a tightnit group and the situation. To do that in someone's home where everyone is "friends" or just "trustworthy" because of such a small tight group is beyond shameful.


...but it wasn't done with hate...


----------



## sktdvs

I think a list should be created of who attended, and then contact each of those people and see who they brought and so forth so make a compiling list of attendees. That way its fresh in everyones minds and details arent left out. Longer it go, people begin to forget important details.

Has the police been notified? It can be considered a burglury since it was commited in the home and the frog or frogs are of some value.

Process of elimination is one way to narrow it down using the list, or the list can be handed over to P.D.

I hope you guys catch the person!!


----------



## jaree2

I just wanted to repeat my sentiments from the other thread. I'm very thankful to Scott and everyone there for being so personable and welcoming to a new face. I hope that this situation is sorted out, as I'd hate to see an end to these types of gatherings now that I've discovered what a great experience they can be.


----------



## stemcellular

Based on timeframe and some observations we have a pretty good idea who done it. However, I get that this was likely a stupid act in the moment kinda thing and I hope that person takes me up on my post and contacts me - your name will not get out and you will be essentially granted a reprieve for manning up (only 3 women out of 50 dudes). However, if this isn't resolved ill be forced (along with many others I'm sure, to move to an invite only future for events).



frogface said:


> I'm pretty sure that some of the folk who were there have a good idea of who it was.
> 
> I was not there, yet, I saw some odd board behavior following the meeting and it set off bells for me. I'll be PMing that info to Scott but won't post about it, because, as I said, I wasn't there and this is purely a gut feeling.


----------



## DCreptiles

angry gary said:


> i don't know where exactly to begin with this one..done with hate?? no.. simple greed is the answer. and the girlfriend thing?? not the type of friends i would like to associate with.
> 
> plain and simple there is NO justification , NO reasoning, NO what ifs...



i agree but by openly saying basically that everyone is going to hang who ever did this does not help chris get his frogs back. back to what ed said. this will lead him to either hide the evadence or just fade into the backround. what is more important here? getting chris back his frogs? or feeding the dendroboard wolves that feed off this type of energy?

everyone will sway one way or the other and follow the theorys that will then turn into rumars which will then turn into arguments which will then turn into people taking sides and sticking up for each other, then shows and meets then become weird and so on and so on. and then this will make more work for kyle and the rest of the mods to have to step in and mod our discussions which turn arguments and then they get nasty which may or may not progress.

i firmly believe that certain people have a idea of one person and others have an idea of another. All i am saying is people should do more talking and asking the right questions then spreading around what they hear. but then again i guess everyone loves a good rumar.


----------



## SMenigoz

DCreptiles said:


> i agree but by openly saying basically that everyone is going to hang who ever did this does not help chris get his frogs back. back to what ed said. this will lead him to either hide the evadence or just fade into the backround. what is more important here? getting chris back his frogs? or feeding the dendroboard wolves that feed off this type of energy?
> i firmly believe that certain people have a idea of one person and others have an idea of another. All i am saying is people should do more talking and asking the right questions then spreading around what they hear. .


Finally Derek, I agree with your post. Please help us...
There are MORE than rumors circulating. An olive branch has been extended by Ray. If you have knowledge that would resolve this, share it privately with Ray. Please.
Scott


----------



## JoshK

What a shame, I hope whoever did this does the right thing.

Just out of curiosity, did the guys at Black Jungle ever catch the frog thieves from last year? I guess it is because I remembered they said it was a board member, and it was in the same area. I just wonder if it couldn't be the same person. . .


----------



## bmore

sktdvs said:


> I think a list should be created of who attended, and then contact each of those people and see who they brought and so forth so make a compiling list of attendees. That way its fresh in everyones minds and details arent left out. Longer it go, people begin to forget important details.
> 
> Has the police been notified? It can be considered a burglury since it was commited in the home and the frog or frogs are of some value.
> 
> Process of elimination is one way to narrow it down using the list, or the list can be handed over to P.D.
> 
> I hope you guys catch the person!!


i would agree with sktdvs. I wasn't there yesterday, sorry brandon i went out the night before and over slept.  Anyway i sincerely hope you catch the person who did this but i would highly suggest not to put peoples real names on the board. You can get into very sticky legal issues which could cost someone a lot more than frogs. if you think you know who did it tell the police. Let's be real chris is most likely not going to get his frogs back with people playing detective on db. Also the penalties from law enforcement will be much more harsh than and costly. Bottom line please be careful what you post when accusing someone of a crime and chris i hope u do get your frogs back.


----------



## Heartbreak7

I'm Matt, I was at the meeting too. Left shortly after the slide show, saw frogs sitting on the dryer before the slide show behind some other folks' stuff. The only frogs I left with were the ones I purchased from Scott and Mike (thanks again!). 

I had a great time at my first meeting and hope this doesn't have a negative affect on future ones.


----------



## Ed

Heartbreak7 said:


> I'm Matt, I was at the meeting too. Left shortly after the slide show, saw frogs sitting on the dryer before the slide show behind some other folks' stuff. The only frogs I left with were the ones I purchased from Scott and Mike (thanks again!).
> 
> I had a great time at my first meeting and hope this doesn't have a negative affect on future ones.


One of the potential result of the action on the part of one person is that meetings may be invite only.... 

Ed


----------



## angry gary

an invite only meeting will only serve to hurt the newcomers and in the long run only hurts the hobby. but sometimes you have to do the unpopular thing i guess....


----------



## Ed

angry gary said:


> an invite only meeting will only serve to hurt the newcomers and in the long run only hurts the hobby. but sometimes you have to do the unpopular thing i guess....


I am simply pointing out an ugly potential side effect.


----------



## pl259

Since I wasn't there either, and don't know many who were, I'll offer another Ray like path to resolution. 

I assume the person or persons who took the frogs are reading this. You will be found out and the longer it drags out, the more chance the owner will go to the police. The window for avoiding this is closing. 

Have a person you know, send an email to the addy below to arrange for an anonymous return of the frogs.

[email protected]

I'll coordinate their return anonymously. You can use someone none of us know, to physically return them.


----------



## stemcellular

In some ways, though in this case its pretty clear that the person who took the frogs knew what they were and was confident enough to take them. I'm holding a meeting in Jan and honestly, at this point, I'm only inviting those folks that I know weren't involved or know personally.


----------



## angry gary

ed,
i am full agreement with you. the invite only\no newcomers is just a sad byproduct of that.

ag


----------



## AlexRible

Sorry Chris to hear about your frogs, I'm sure the fact that a fellow frogger did it hurts alot more than the lost frogs. I hope they get back to you and things can become water under the bridge. 

Why where they left unattended and out in the open?

On a lighter note, this whole thread has become like a game of "Clue"

I say XFrogNaper32 did it in the Laundry Room with the pair of Blue jeans.


----------



## SMenigoz

angry gary said:


> ed,
> i am full agreement with you. the invite only\no newcomers is just a sad byproduct of that.
> ag


Don't think you're off the hook Gary, as both you and Ed were at the scene and considered suspects


----------



## Dendroguy

grrrrrrr. makes me MAD!!!!!!! and blue jeans are such a nice morph, who would do this act of evil!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?


----------



## mantisdragon91

SMenigoz said:


> Don't think you're off the hook Gary, as both you and Ed were at the scene and considered suspects


Can I be a suspect as well? I feel left out


----------



## Ed

AlexRible said:


> Why where they left unattended and out in the open?


 
The problem is that once this is used as an excuse, why should anyone be allowed to get near someone's collection unless they are invited and escorted... 

This is more closely related to inviting your friends over and having them steal stuff from your house. There were a lot of frog's sitting out and a lot of those were a little further out of the way... 

I'm going to add a personal comment to the mix.. if it comes out that someone else knows who did it and is hiding it or not coming clean (say those who rode in the car with that person), then they shouldn't be surprised at best to be treated with a lot of suspicion in the future and probably to not ever be invited to another meet...


----------



## Ed

SMenigoz said:


> Don't think you're off the hook Gary, as both you and Ed were at the scene and considered suspects


 
Hey I offered to let you handsome gents frisk me but it was declined...  

Ed


----------



## SMenigoz

mantisdragon91 said:


> Can I be a suspect as well? I feel left out


Step into the lineup Roman...please spread your feet.


----------



## GeorgiaB

This is seriously unfortunate... i really hope the person grows some balls and does the right thing, this is a hobby with a relatively small community and in order for it to grow we need to trust and help each other out. 

The person has been offered many easy solutions that lets them off the hook pretty darn easily. My two cents... just give the frogs back! Is it really worth the few hundred dollars it would cost to pick up a pair legitimately?? 

All the best, I really hope this gets resolved!
Georgia


----------



## sktdvs

Chris/rcteem - Im on the west coast, so I couldnt have been there, but I would like to donate some funds to help offset the finacial loss. I feel terrible, and I know how expensive some of these frogs are, especially blue jeans. 

Anyway, PM me your paypal addy and Ill shoot you over a bit to help offset the cost. Sorry to hear about everything and I hope you catch the person.


----------



## stemcellular

I am very pleased to say that I've been contacted by the individual and he has agreed to work with me to get the frogs back to Chris. I just want to publicly say that it takes a lot of courage to admit a mistake and seek to rectify the situation and I can respect that. 

three cheers for resolution!

Also, please don't ask me to divulge the person's name, as I've agreed to keep it in confidence. I can't speak for Chris or for other's but I'm willing to chalk this up to a teachable moment.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Just deleted what I wrote.
Glad it worked out.

John


----------



## SMenigoz

stemcellular said:


> I am very pleased to say that I've been contacted by the individual and he has agreed to work with me to get the frogs back to Chris. I just want to publicly say that it takes a lot of courage to admit a mistake and seek to rectify the situation and I can respect that.
> three cheers for resolution!
> Also, please don't ask me to divulge the person's name, as I've agreed to keep it in confidence. I can't speak for Chris or for other's but I'm willing to chalk this up to a teachable moment.


If he's reading this, I want to thank him for doing the right thing. I'm disappointed, but would be more so if he'd never spoke up. 
Good work Ray!
Scott


----------



## Julio

Glad to hear that Ray, there is a silver lining after all


----------



## Darmon

That is great news!


----------



## frogface

Excellent! I know Chris will be thrilled to hear this.


----------



## Ed

SMenigoz said:


> Step into the lineup Roman...please spread your feet.


 
Did they come clean because they couldn't bear the mental image of Roman getting frisked?? 

Ed


----------



## topherlove

Glad it was resolved, and glad they did the right thing i saw them and they were and are a beautiful pair of BJ's


----------



## Woodsman

This is very good news! 

I made the aweful mistake of stealing an Indian Star Tortoice from a pet store when I was about 12, felt sick about it for days, and only felt better when I returned the animal to the store. Oddly enough, the store owner and I became good friends afterward, as he understood that very often our wallets are not nearly as big as our desires when it comes to acquiring pets.

Good sleuthing, Ray!

Take care, Richard (sorry I missed all the goings-on at Scott's).


----------



## mantisdragon91

Ed said:


> Did they come clean because they couldn't bear the mental image of Roman getting frisked??
> 
> Ed


Nice Ed,

Lets hold off until the perpetrator actually follows through with their promise. If they do they would regain a measure of my respect for them. Lets hope there is a lesson learned on both ends. Unfortunately we tend to be a little too trusting in this subsection of the overall hobby and it is only a matter of time until the trust is abused especialy in a down economy.


----------



## KeroKero

OMG this was a bit of drama... but I'm happy it got resolved! I figured after page 8 that I was just going to have to post that I was there and that I hope it gets resolved. I hope the frogs get back safe and sound, and there is no harm done to them from this experience.

I don't even know about commenting on the rest, I'm still in a bit of shock after being told this happened!


----------



## stemcellular

and look who shows up on DB.... 

Really nice meeting you, Corey W.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Glad to hear it looks like this is being worked out...hope the hand off happens and goes smoothly. 

But sadly this makes my comic relief post of "IT WAS ME!...I DID IT!, AND I'M NOT GIVING THEM BACK!" ...Here is my GF modeling them"...Kinda pointless 

here is the pic that was to be included...


----------



## angry gary

SMenigoz said:


> Don't think you're off the hook Gary, as both you and Ed were at the scene and considered suspects


foiled again mr. holmes


----------



## JoshK

Just because you're sorry you got caught stealing doesn't mean you aren't still a scumbag thief, but that's just my opinion.

If someone stole a loaf of bread or something I could show some understanding, but to steal from a fellow frogger is one of the most disgusting things I can think of.


----------



## jig1

Good work stemcellular. Very nice job at working out a resolution thumbs up to you.


----------



## botanyboy03

Glad to see this almost resolved. Glad someone finally grew a pair and fessed up.


----------



## kinison

fleshfrombone said:


> Wow dude that's weak as shit.


Maybe its strong as piss?


----------



## gyuen

stemcellular said:


> I am very pleased to say that I've been contacted by the individual and he has agreed to work with me to get the frogs back to Chris. I just want to publicly say that it takes a lot of courage to admit a mistake and seek to rectify the situation and I can respect that.
> 
> three cheers for resolution!
> 
> Also, please don't ask me to divulge the person's name, as I've agreed to keep it in confidence. I can't speak for Chris or for other's but I'm willing to chalk this up to a teachable moment.


Glad this work out. I would have been the most suspected person since I was sitting next to the dryer in the last hour before we packed our frogs/plants/cultures.


----------



## DCreptiles

Wow I am EXTREMELY happy to hear that the person has taken ray up on his offer. this is very good news. 

This just goes to show that although we all knew the chances were very slim, we can still believe in people.

Ray by all means keep us posted on this transaction and let us know it was completed.


----------



## PantMan

Wow what great drama. I was glued to the thread all day. Too bad it revolved around such unfortunate circumstances. Well now that the witch hunt is over it's time now for something completely different.


----------



## Nightstalker

I just went through all the pages and am glad it was finally resolved. I really wanted to make it, but I had tickets to the Rammstein concert at The Garden. If it wasn't their only show in the US, I would have definitely been there. Quick note on this whole thing: it happened in Maryland, but the guests where Primarily from out of state. The value ($350?) would not warrant a cross state investigation. We are a small, specialized community. It is up to us to police ourselves. I also happen to agree with JoshK on this. 

Now that I have moved and my living arrangements are VERY different, I'm going to be able to make it to more gatherings. I also now have my own frog room (pictures posted when I find my camera) which has had a concideralble population increase in the past couple of weeks (from 4 to 14) I'm hoping to try and get a little get together planned in the next couple months. A Winter BBQ is always fun. 

Oh, and if someone decides to lift something that isn't theirs, they will be dealt. with on scene, by me. Those that know me, know what I do and also know that I'm larger than the average bear. Warning issued, have a nice day.


----------



## DCreptiles

Nightstalker said:


> I just went through all the pages and am glad it was finally resolved. I really wanted to make it, but I had tickets to the Rammstein concert at The Garden. If it wasn't their only show in the US, I would have definitely been there. Quick note on this whole thing: it happened in Maryland, but the guests where Primarily from out of state. The value ($350?) would not warrant a cross state investigation. We are a small, specialized community. It is up to us to police ourselves. I also happen to agree with JoshK on this.
> 
> Now that I have moved and my living arrangements are VERY different, I'm going to be able to make it to more gatherings. I also now have my own frog room (pictures posted when I find my camera) which has had a concideralble population increase in the past couple of weeks (from 4 to 14) I'm hoping to try and get a little get together planned in the next couple months. A Winter BBQ is always fun.
> 
> Oh, and if someone decides to lift something that isn't theirs, they will be dealt. with on scene, by me. Those that know me, know what I do and also know that I'm larger than the average bear. Warning issued, have a nice day.



that you are my friend that you are. John is a great dude new to the hobby and is one of the regulars that pick up FF's from me since hes a cop in my town.


----------



## frogface

Ed said:


> Did they come clean because they couldn't bear the mental image of Roman getting frisked??
> 
> Ed


Having met Roman, I have to say this couldn't be the reason


----------



## rcteem

Hey, finally got on and glad to hear they are being returned. I would like to honor my word by saying I will not say who and would ask not to pm me asking either. Im just surprised honestly to be getting them back. Thank you to whoever you are!!!


----------



## tclipse

Glad to hear they're on the way back to you, Chris... 

Now that that's out of the way, somebody post some pics in the MADS thread


----------



## rcteem

Ill let everyone know when I get them back safely and will be glad to post pictures of the BJs


----------



## earthfrog

I'm really glad to hear that. I was hoping it was just an accident where someone at the meeting got a bunch of frogs and other stuff and just put everything near them into their bag or something, then read the threads and freaked out, and after calming down sent the frogs back to you. Maybe so, maybe not...sorry for all your troubles lately.


----------



## SMenigoz

Great news everybody! I did another extensive search through my basement and found not only the pair of Blue Jeans, but also a few Histrionicus  

I guess, in light of the frustration/positive outcome yesterday, I can get away with a little humor...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Wow!!
I really need to make that next meeting.

John


----------



## ChrisK

SMenigoz said:


> Great news everybody! I did another extensive search through my basement and found not only the pair of Blue Jeans, but also a few Histrionicus
> 
> I guess, in light of the frustration/positive outcome yesterday, I can get away with a little humor...


Made me nervous for a second till I realized I didn't go to this one


----------



## NathanB

SMenigoz said:


> Great news everybody! I did another extensive search through my basement and found not only the pair of Blue Jeans, but also a few Histrionicus
> 
> I guess, in light of the frustration/positive outcome yesterday, I can get away with a little humor...


I was wondering where i left those


----------



## illinoisfrogs

If you find any D. mysteriosus, those are mine.


----------



## eos

Nightstalker said:


> Oh, and if someone decides to lift something that isn't theirs, they will be dealt. with on scene, by me. Those that know me, know what I do and also know that I'm larger than the average bear. Warning issued, have a nice day.


Yeah, you DEFINITELY wouldn't wanna cross this guy ^^


----------



## ridinshotgun

OK it has been five days now have the frogs been recieved?


----------



## Scott

It's been cold in New England (and thankfully I no longer live there) - so just relax about it.

Leave it up to the the three parties directly involved now (ok, four, if you want to count the host also).

s


----------



## rcteem

He is in contact with the middle man and will drop off the frogs next week. Ill be sure to post when I get them back.


----------



## ridinshotgun

Scott said:


> It's been cold in New England (and thankfully I no longer live there) - so just relax about it.
> 
> Leave it up to the the three parties directly involved now (ok, four, if you want to count the host also).
> 
> s


Actually everyone that was at that meet is involved either directly or indirectly whether you like it or not. Until this is put right it puts all future meets that we all attend in jeopardy. Go back and look at some of the comments from people that were the host or have hosted in the past to see what I say is true.


----------



## ridinshotgun

rcteem said:


> He is in contact with the middle man and will drop off the frogs next week. Ill be sure to post when I get them back.


Thanks for the update Chris.


----------



## SMenigoz

Scott said:


> Leave it up to the the three parties directly involved now (ok, four, if you want to count the host also).
> s


So here's the rub...Do you feel that I, as the host, deserve the right to know? 
Why I shouldn't:
Because it was a deal between the mod and the perp.
Because it "saves face" for the person who did it.
Can't think of anything else...
Why I should know:
Because future meets at my house will not happen until I know.
Because it happened in my house.
Because I supported the best approach to getting Chris' frogs back.
Because my openness towards helping fellow froggers is definately affected--always thinking, "was this the guy who took the frogs from my place"? 
Because I'm mature enough to handle knowing and not sharing. 

Hopefully Chris will get his frogs back soon; he will be made "whole". This community will suffer for it however, as I cannot see a reason to open my house up again without knowing. 
To the person who did it--you did the right thing (for Chris) by returning the frogs. Now how about doing the right thing for the hobby and PM'ing me. I am not a monster and will not "out" you in public...but I feel I deserve the right to know. You made a mistake; now how about taking steps to heal the wounds?
Scott


----------



## mantisdragon91

SMenigoz said:


> So here's the rub...Do you feel that I, as the host, deserve the right to know?
> Why I shouldn't:
> Because it was a deal between the mod and the perp.
> Because it "saves face" for the person who did it.
> Can't think of anything else...
> Why I should know:
> Because future meets at my house will not happen until I know.
> Because it happened in my house.
> Because I supported the best approach to getting Chris' frogs back.
> Because my openness towards helping fellow froggers is definately affected--always thinking, "was this the guy who took the frogs from my place"?
> Because I'm mature enough to handle knowing and not sharing.
> 
> Hopefully Chris will get his frogs back soon; he will be made "whole". This community will suffer for it however, as I cannot see a reason to open my house up again without knowing.
> To the person who did it--you did the right thing (for Chris) by returning the frogs. Now how about doing the right thing for the hobby and PM'ing me. I am not a monster and will not "out" you in public...but I feel I deserve the right to know. You made a mistake; now how about taking steps to heal the wounds?
> Scott


Couldn't agree with you more Scott and as some one who is thinking of having a meet at his house in the spring I would like to know as well. We are all human and we all have moments of weakness. However I would like to know what happened, why it happened and the reasons why it will never happen again. Would hate to think that I will have to install a "frog" detector at all the entrances and exits to my house come the spring


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Well Done.
I happen to agree with both Scotts.
The people involved should be the Mod.-Scott because it was his house-Chris because they were his frogs and the one who took them.
Yes, this will no doubt change the way things are done now at peoples houses-maybe for the better.
I remember saying to myself ''man, I`m glad I wasnt there''...but I also don`t to think that way if someone is going to nice enough to open up their house to me.

John


----------



## JoshH

SMenigoz said:


> Hopefully Chris will get his frogs back soon; he will be made "whole". This community will suffer for it however, as I cannot see a reason to open my house up again without knowing.


Maybe this whole ordeal is a sign that we (MADS, as a community) should start looking into the possibility of having the meetings at a nearby venue/room/hall, etc. The crowd has gotten bigger with every meeting, and eventually it will be too much to hold in a person's basement without losing control over the place. If everyone pitched in a small amount per meeting, it should be enough to cover hosting it somewhere else.

This could have the opportunity to be a scaled down show like IAD. And if local to Frederick, could still be accompanied with side trips to Scott's collection and other places. At this point I am just tossing thoughts and ideas out there, so feel free to pick it apart!


----------



## rollinkansas

JoshH said:


> Maybe this whole ordeal is a sign that we (MADS, as a community) should start looking into the possibility of having the meetings at a nearby venue/room/hall, etc. The crowd has gotten bigger with every meeting, and eventually it will be too much to hold in a person's basement without losing control over the place. If everyone pitched in a small amount per meeting, it should be enough to cover hosting it somewhere else.
> 
> This could have the opportunity to be a scaled down show like IAD. And if local to Frederick, could still be accompanied with side trips to Scott's collection and other places. At this point I am just tossing thoughts and ideas out there, so feel free to pick it apart!


For me at least, I like the meetings because I like seeing how other people keep their animals...tanks and all. If I wanted to see a bunch of frogs in deli cups on a table in a venue, Id just go to a reptile show.


----------



## JoshK

Oh no, we wouldn't want to expose worthless thieves for who they are. We should keep it a secret and let them continue stealing from the rest of the hobby. How many times have they done this, how many more times will they? Oh, but that doesn't matter as long as we all pretend everything is ok then everything will be. What a joke!


----------



## NathanB

SMenigoz said:


> So here's the rub...Do you feel that I, as the host, deserve the right to know?
> Why I shouldn't:
> Because it was a deal between the mod and the perp.
> Because it "saves face" for the person who did it.
> Can't think of anything else...
> Why I should know:
> Because future meets at my house will not happen until I know.
> Because it happened in my house.
> Because I supported the best approach to getting Chris' frogs back.
> Because my openness towards helping fellow froggers is definately affected--always thinking, "was this the guy who took the frogs from my place"?
> Because I'm mature enough to handle knowing and not sharing.
> 
> Hopefully Chris will get his frogs back soon; he will be made "whole". This community will suffer for it however, as I cannot see a reason to open my house up again without knowing.
> To the person who did it--you did the right thing (for Chris) by returning the frogs. Now how about doing the right thing for the hobby and PM'ing me. I am not a monster and will not "out" you in public...but I feel I deserve the right to know. You made a mistake; now how about taking steps to heal the wounds?
> Scott


Scott was just as violated as Chris was


----------



## JoshH

Scott should definately have access to any important information regarding the people that he lets into his home. Here are just a few reasons why this needs to be taken very seriously:
~ That could have been his frogs....he has a lot of unsecured tanks and one hell of a frog collection.
~ Other frog venders are starting to attend, Stewart, Dulany, etc.....and they also have their frogs laid out in the open, thus being vulnerable. 
~ The entire concept of bringing guest (many who are strangers) into your home to share experiences and ideas is based on trust and honesty....
~ At this point, there needs to be some control over who attends these meets.
~ It is insulting and violating to Scott and pretty much everyone in the MADS. Nobody at the meeting was too young to know what they were doing, personally I don't care what the motivating thought behind it was; it was quite simply wrong. It wasn't like taking a few tadpoles from a park pond, but more on the lines of reaching in your friends wallet and helping yourself to a few good hundred dollars...that's not something to let go so easily.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

So in what positive way without hurting someones feelings should the invatation list go.
Personally, I`ve been a member for almost 5 years. I`d like to consider myself pretty well known here, but I`ve only met a few of you in person and because I usually work week-ends I haven`t been able to attend one of these gatherings.
Do I not get invited because no one really knows me?
I know there`s a few people here who could speak on my behalf ( I hope)
So how should the guest list be handled?

John


----------



## poison beauties

Good luck finding out who it was Scott. I think the thief should be outed. Its funny how the saftey of everyones frogs at future shows and meets will be an issue while the one who screwed up gets to stay in the clear. Had this went to the police they would be a felon.

Michael


----------



## JoshH

Most importantly, Scott should know who it was. 

Secondly, the MADS meets should be invitation only. If the host (Scott, for now anyway) does not want to include that person, then they simply are not invited. The perp can still remain anonymous, and still participate on the boards like it never happened. No one has to know why someone isn't attending the meet...but at the same time.....I think that they should lose the privilage of participating in the group due to their past actions.


----------



## jig1

If the thief is a member here he should just out himself and apologize sincerly. You tried to rip off someone and in turn ripped off your self. Ripped off your reputation and friendships. Was it worth it?


----------



## NathanB

I dont think invitation only would work the way mads is set up. We dont even have a formal membership


----------



## theglassfrog

get a bouncer next time and have him look through everyones belongings as they leave. thats what they do at my local bar when something gets stolen. works 90% of the time too


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

I'm not sure why people are asking stemcellular to go back on his word


----------



## Ed

Regardless of my personal opinion on the whole matter, the deal was that the person would return the frogs if there was the equivalent of immunity from prosecution. Certainly if they were outed it would result in the equivalent of prosecution by the community.. look at the effect of shunning by a community for an example.


----------



## frogface

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I'm not sure why people are asking stemcellular to go back on his word


I agree. That was the deal, return the frogs and remain anonymous.


----------



## Philsuma

A couple people already know who is involved in this incident and it's more than one person. Seasoned criminals blab away serious crimes involving tens of thousands of dollars / drugs, for instance. Do you think a tiny hobby community with a small dollar item like frogs is going to be airtight, protected and no one find out? Nope.

I am personally waiting to get back up north and get all of my frog related items taken care of - my frog room, Bob Zarry's collection ect ect before I start to post more on this.

Scott M. I'll get with you in person on this as well....when I'm back.

The ONLY reason the MADS gatherngs are so well attended is because of Scott's hospitality...followed closely by his spectacular collection. Gatherings at a sterile venue like a fire hall or rented space will simply not work for this very reason - no collection to see, ect.

Should people ever be excluded from a gathering? youbetcha.


----------



## mantisdragon91

Brotherly Monkey said:


> I'm not sure why people are asking stemcellular to go back on his word


While I can't speak for any one else on here, I am not asking for Ray to reveal anything, I'm asking for the perp to man up and take accountability for his actions.


----------



## Philsuma

1. "Immunity" from prosecution (police) - thats up to Chris as he is 100% a victim.

2. "Immunity" from being made known to Scott M - As the generous host who's hospitality was violated and who has personally made known that he wishes the identity - I believe he deserves to know post haste.

3. "Immunity" from the community - As someone who is very active in said community, I don't care what deals were proposed or made. Anyone in the community or hobby can MAKE it their business to know this information.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Philsuma said:


> 1. "Immunity" from prosecution (police) - thats up to Chris as he is 100% a victim.
> 
> 2. "Immunity" from being made known to Scott M - As the generous host who's hospitality was violated and who has personally made known that he wishes the identity - I believe he deserves to know post haste.
> 
> 3. "Immunity" from the community - As someone who is very active in said community, I don't care what deals were proposed or made. Anyone in the community or hobby can MAKE it their business to know this information.


Stemcellular made it quite clear that he would hold the person's identity in confidence.

Also, I'm not sure tossing around accusations is really going to serve the hobby, being that it's almost impossible to prove ones innocence. So if you do choose to go that route, please make sure that the evidence is very credible, and not simply speculation


----------



## Yobosayo

I can't believe some of you are sugarcoating what happened. A mistake? C'mon.

A mistake is when you add or subtract numbers incorrectly. Deliberately taking, STEALING, property from another is hardly a mistake. What happened wasn't even a case of poor judgement, it was flat out thievery.

If I were going to open my house to a group of people, many of whom I may only "know" by a forum user name, I'd most definitely want to know and would expect to be told before hand if a known thief planned on being there. I wouldn't want this person in my house, around my property any more than I'd want a known child molester near my children.


----------



## stemcellular

Hi Phil,

I'm willing to wager that you havnet a clue what you are talking about. So please, for the sake of us all, quit trying to stir the pot. This isn't the time or place.

To the rest, I'm not about to go back on my word. Its a hard pill to stomach but in the absence of my proposal I can guarantee that we would have no idea who took the frogs. 

Now, re the return of the frogs, while the person in question has been responsive to coorespondence they have been waffling when it comes to getting the frogs back, despite our best attempts to arrange a dropoff. My feeling is that this person shouldn't enjoy the luxury of excuses, irrespective of her/his schedule, etc. Also, the person who has offered to invest their time in accepting, caring for, and ultimately shipping the frogs should not have to incur further time or expense. So here's the deal, if this whole thing isn't done this week, my deal is off. 







Philsuma said:


> A couple people already know who is involved in this incident and it's more than one person. Seasoned criminals blab away serious crimes involving tens of thousands of dollars / drugs, for instance. Do you think a tiny hobby community with a small dollar item like frogs is going to be airtight, protected and no one find out? Nope.
> 
> I am personally waiting to get back up north and get all of my frog related items taken care of - my frog room, Bob Zarry's collection ect ect before I start to post more on this.
> 
> Scott M. I'll get with you in person on this as well....when I'm back.
> 
> The ONLY reason the MADS gatherngs are so well attended is because of Scott's hospitality...followed closely by his spectacular collection. Gatherings at a sterile venue like a fire hall or rented space will simply not work for this very reason - no collection to see, ect.
> 
> Should people ever be excluded from a gathering? youbetcha.


----------



## paintballislife

stemcellular said:


> So here's the deal, if this whole thing isn't done this week, my deal is off.


Sounds more then fair.. A week is more then enough time to rectify.


----------



## NathanB

i want to know who you guys thought it was now haha


----------



## Philsuma

stemcellular said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I'm willing to wager that you havnet a clue what you are talking about.


Ray.....that's a wager you would lose.


----------



## Philsuma

paintballislife said:


> Sounds more then fair.. A week is more then enough time to rectify.


Would TWO weeks be fine....if they were YOUR frogs?

I think not.


----------



## stemcellular

Feel free to share then, Phil. 




Philsuma said:


> Ray.....that's a wager you would lose.


----------



## Philsuma

stemcellular said:


> Feel free to share then, Phil.


When this all comes out, someone's name will come up as the reason for the "speak up". I don't know if you'll acknowledge it though.

It's your barbeque Ray. I've made my one telephone call and was told to hold off....so hold off I will.


----------



## Taron

Mod fight lol

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Yobosayo said:


> I can't believe some of you are sugarcoating what happened. A mistake? C'mon.
> 
> A mistake is when you add or subtract numbers incorrectly. Deliberately taking, STEALING, property from another is hardly a mistake. What happened wasn't even a case of poor judgement, it was flat out thievery.
> 
> If I were going to open my house to a group of people, many of whom I may only "know" by a forum user name, I'd most definitely want to know and would expect to be told before hand if a known thief planned on being there. I wouldn't want this person in my house, around my property any more than I'd want a known child molester near my children.


This was thought to be a ''mistake'' about 10 pages back.
Keep up dude.

John


----------



## Yobosayo

Enlightened Rogue said:


> This was thought to be a ''mistake'' about 10 pages back.
> Keep up dude.
> 
> John


Point is, dude, the offender may be coming to your house next time.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Yobosayo said:


> Point is, dude, the offender may be coming to your house next time.


Are you kidding me?
I`d never have you maniacs over my house.

John


----------



## sbreland

KeroKero said:


> OMG this was a bit of drama... but I'm happy it got resolved! I figured after page 8 that I was just going to have to post that I was there and that I hope it gets resolved. I hope the frogs get back safe and sound, and there is no harm done to them from this experience.
> 
> I don't even know about commenting on the rest, I'm still in a bit of shock after being told this happened!


Wow, you're.... ALIVE! I know many people on here were starting to wonder about that...


----------



## heatfreakk3

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Are you kidding me?
> I`d never have you maniacs over my house.
> 
> John


Haha. That was funny


----------



## botanyboy03

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Are you kidding me?
> I`d never have you maniacs over my house.
> 
> John


Hehe. Yeah, thats hilarious.


----------



## yours

*a quarter to be placed into the jukebox*

"Jingle Bells
Robin Smells
Batman Laid an Egg..."

Erm, NO! *kicks that antique of a music player*

"Dashing through the snow
In a one horse open sleigh
Over the fields we go
LAUGHING all the way..."

Well, you can't blame a guy for trying, right?? 'Tis the Season!! Hehe

*looks around for streamers....balloons....confetti even(?), to turn those FROWNS, up-side DOWN's!* 



Alex


----------



## Ed

yours said:


> *a quarter to be placed into the jukebox*
> 
> "Alex


How about 



 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> When this all comes out, someone's name will come up as the reason for the "speak up". I don't know if you'll acknowledge it though.
> 
> It's your barbeque Ray. I've made my one telephone call and was told to hold off....so hold off I will.


preferably if it happens to...




 
and not as perferable...


----------



## tclipse

ridinshotgun said:


> Actually everyone that was at that meet is involved either directly or indirectly whether you like it or not. Until this is put right it puts all future meets that we all attend in jeopardy. Go back and look at some of the comments from people that were the host or have hosted in the past to see what I say is true.





JoshK said:


> Oh no, we wouldn't want to expose worthless thieves for who they are. We should keep it a secret and let them continue stealing from the rest of the hobby. How many times have they done this, how many more times will they? Oh, but that doesn't matter as long as we all pretend everything is ok then everything will be. What a joke!





Yobosayo said:


> I can't believe some of you are sugarcoating what happened. A mistake? C'mon.
> 
> A mistake is when you add or subtract numbers incorrectly. Deliberately taking, STEALING, property from another is hardly a mistake. What happened wasn't even a case of poor judgement, it was flat out thievery.
> 
> If I were going to open my house to a group of people, many of whom I may only "know" by a forum user name, I'd most definitely want to know and would expect to be told before hand if a known thief planned on being there. I wouldn't want this person in my house, around my property any more than I'd want a known child molester near my children.


I want to know just as badly as everyone else, I offered to have this specific meet at my house (bad location/only 10 vivs, Scott's was clearly the better choice).. BUT- anything that gets between Chris and the return of those frogs shouldn't be messed with. No matter what anyone wants to say, anything else is secondary, like it or not. I know I don't, but I'm not selfish enough to believe that it's worth giving away the only leverage Chris has. I do think Scott M. deserves to know, definitely way more than any of the rest of us. 


As for invitation only, I think it's not a terrible idea but would alienate new members without really getting rid of all of the risk... at what point would someone be deemed worthy of being invited? Me, for example.. I've only met Scott, Derek, Phil, and Roman (sorry if I forgot anyone, it's late as hell) off the top of my head, and only 1-2x apiece.. that doesn't necessarily make someone trustworthy. Also, the person who did this could easily be someone who would have been cleared for the invite list.. we just don't know. 

An official guest list with name, forum name, and phone number seems like a very good and easy idea... it would stop someone from just reading the thread and coming unannounced. That's what we do on the car forum I belong to... it also makes drinks/food way easier, you don't end up with 60 bags of chips and no soda- and any extra guests who come along with the forum member are also listed as such. 

Making MADS membership a little more official could help too... if nothing else, just a list of "trusted members" who have been to a number of meets and/or are known as trustworthy through marketplace transactions and word of mouth. It seems like someone would be less likely to try something stupid if they were one of 5-6 newcomers with 15 members, as opposed to being just one person out of 20.


----------



## Dendro Dave

stemcellular said:


> Hi Phil,
> 
> I'm willing to wager that you havnet a clue what you are talking about. So please, for the sake of us all, quit trying to stir the pot. This isn't the time or place.
> 
> To the rest, I'm not about to go back on my word. Its a hard pill to stomach but in the absence of my proposal I can guarantee that we would have no idea who took the frogs. I, like some others, thought I had a good notion of who took them, and let me tell you, we were way off base.
> 
> Now, re the return of the frogs, while the person in question has been responsive to coorespondence they have been waffling when it comes to getting the frogs back, despite our best attempts to arrange a dropoff. My feeling is that this person shouldn't enjoy the luxury of excuses, irrespective of her/his schedule, etc. Also, the person who has offered to invest their time in accepting, caring for, and ultimately shipping the frogs should not have to incur further time or expense. So here's the deal, if this whole thing isn't done this week, my deal is off.


Just a thought on this... I can completely understand the sentiment, and agree with everything said here except I'm concerned that the person in question could potentially use this as a bit of an "out", by saying...

"Well I was trying to give the frogs back, but my schedule was so hectic with the holidays and all, and I was concerned about the shipping with the weather (if they need to be shipped) that I just didn't get to it by the deadline"... "I had every intention of returning the frogs but now I've already been labeled a thief bla bla bla, etc...etc... so I guess I'll just keep them since everyone hates me now already"....Or something to that effect. 

Pretty thin and entirely BS and their rep will still end up just as trashed probably, but it may be enough in this person's mind to stop them from returning the frogs if they are hesitating already with the current pressure and opinions. But if they figure now they've got nothing to gain then they may just walk away from the deal. I personally think Scott has a right to know who it was, but that the number 1 priority should be getting Chris the frogs back, and the deal and promise gives the best chance of that happening. I can't speak for Scott, but I'd be willing to sacrifice my right to know to see someone get their property back, then I'd just deal with the consequences of the whole thing best I could.

Anyways just throwing that out there for consideration. Maybe it would be better to extend the deadline to at least 2 weeks from now or even a month. At that point I don't think any rational person would even begin to entertain excuses and it will be pretty clear to everyone this person didn't make a mistake but actually intended to steal. 

Also I'm not suggesting any threats be made or anyone take matters into their own hands but it may be helpful and even prudent to point out to the person in question that with no deal, there is no need to keep their name secret, and it is foolish to think given the number of people involved, and who are just angry about this that in such a large group there won't be at least 1 or 2 people willing to take matters into their own hands and get some retribution against this person and/or their personal property.

I don't necessarily condone that but that is a highly likely situation given the number of people angry about this, and the person in question should be advised of the risk and prepared to deal with that reality if they haven't considered it already. It may be a motivator. I know if I had to be concerned that some angry people may find out where I live or work and decide to pay me a visit I'd be highly motivated to make sure that didn't happen and return the property I "mistakenly" took ASAP.


----------



## markpulawski

wow just had this vision

Frankenstein Movie - Windmill Burns Down | Video « MOVIECLIPS


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Honestly, the way I see it is I can`t imagine why it`s taken this long.
If this person was close enough to drive to the meet why couldn`t everyone involved have met by now to return the frogs.
Whats it been 9-10 days?
Something stinks here-and it`s not one of my old cultures.

John


----------



## Philsuma

markpulawski said:


> wow just had this vision
> 
> Frankenstein Movie - Windmill Burns Down | Video « MOVIECLIPS


Mark,

Thats what would happen if someone stole your _histrionicus_ !


----------



## JoshK

tclipse said:


> I want to know just as badly as everyone else, I offered to have this specific meet at my house (bad location/only 10 vivs, Scott's was clearly the better choice).. BUT- anything that gets between Chris and the return of those frogs shouldn't be messed with. No matter what anyone wants to say, anything else is secondary, like it or not. I know I don't, but I'm not selfish enough to believe that it's worth giving away the only leverage Chris has. I do think Scott M. deserves to know, definitely way more than any of the rest of us.
> 
> 
> As for invitation only, I think it's not a terrible idea but would alienate new members without really getting rid of all of the risk... at what point would someone be deemed worthy of being invited? Me, for example.. I've only met Scott, Derek, Phil, and Roman (sorry if I forgot anyone, it's late as hell) off the top of my head, and only 1-2x apiece.. that doesn't necessarily make someone trustworthy. Also, the person who did this could easily be someone who would have been cleared for the invite list.. we just don't know.
> 
> An official guest list with name, forum name, and phone number seems like a very good and easy idea... it would stop someone from just reading the thread and coming unannounced. That's what we do on the car forum I belong to... it also makes drinks/food way easier, you don't end up with 60 bags of chips and no soda- and any extra guests who come along with the forum member are also listed as such.
> 
> Making MADS membership a little more official could help too... if nothing else, just a list of "trusted members" who have been to a number of meets and/or are known as trustworthy through marketplace transactions and word of mouth. It seems like someone would be less likely to try something stupid if they were one of 5-6 newcomers with 15 members, as opposed to being just one person out of 20.



Since you quoted me I will make my point clear. I don't give a rats ass about this persons name. I probably do not know them and I certainly do not want to know them. My issue is that there is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Someone was smiling to Scotts face in his home, while figuring out out the best way to steal some very expensive frogs and we should let them continue doing it to anyone nice enough to open their doors for them? I have had several people in my home that I didn't even know because for whatever stupid reason I thought we were a community of weirdo frog-lovers that could trust each other. 

Now we can all just have out elitist guest lists, leaving out the new froggers and anyone that doesn't fit into each little groups "click". 


Oh, and lets not forget about the people reading this saying "I can steal from the froggers on here, and if I get caught I just give them back with no repercussions and my identity protected but if I don't get caught it then I get new frogs!"


----------



## Philsuma

ok...here's another tact:

I'll offer up a sexed pair of Eldorados and 2 more sub adults to replace Chris's financial loss. He can either keep them or they can be sold at frogday or some other venue and turned into cash.

Now we won't have to worry about anyone holding the frogs "hostage".

The attitudes of some people relative to this incident makes me sick.


----------



## Ulisesfrb

Philsuma said:


> ok...here's another tact:
> 
> I'll offer up a sexed pair of Eldorados and 2 more sub adults to replace Chris's financial loss. He can either keep them or they can be sold at frogday or some other venue and turned into cash.
> 
> Now we won't have to worry about anyone holding the frogs "hostage".
> 
> The attitudes of some people relative to this incident makes me sick.


 This is true class. I'm not from the area and have never been in those meetings, but I've been reading this thread as much as a big part Of DB is. Now, Ray gave his word and by doing so he is now carrying a big burden. I don't think he should be pressed into telling who the thief is. I believe he should stay true to his word and if he ever sees the thief in one of the meetings again, he should ridicule him in front of everybody and point him out. If he doesn't return the frogs, he should be exposed. If that is the case, perhaps Phil can make a raffle on those eldorados. Have a set number of tickets at a price to compensate both of you for the frogs stolen and for the Eldos.


----------



## Ed

JoshK said:


> Oh, and lets not forget about the people reading this saying "I can steal from the froggers on here, and if I get caught I just give them back with no repercussions and my identity protected but if I don't get caught it then I get new frogs!"


 
I'm going to make few comments and then I'm going to let people say what they will as I'll be done with the thread 

When the frogs went missing, a large group of people were justifiably upset over not only that the frog's were stolen but the implication of what it meant for the group, upset that Scott's generosity was taken advantage of, but there was also a greater concern about Chris being out the frogs, and what could happen to the frogs. This resulted in the offer to make sure the frogs got back to Chris and that the person who took the frogs simply didn't just flush them to get rid of the evidence. 

There was a deal put out, that if the frogs were returned, they wouldn't be outed by the people making the transfer so Chris would be made whole, and the frog's would get the best care. This was initially accepted..whether we liked it or not. It was the deal made for the best interests of the frogs and Chris. 

It does not mean that people are going to read the thread an be encouraged that stealing frogs is easy and risk free as is alleged above. The response by us as an overall group is a good indication that not only is it not risk free but there are severe repercussion (as shown by the continued rage by the hobby at large (including a lot of people that weren't even at the meet). 

I will say that the person who has the frog's if they are reading this thread, that not returning the frogs is going to make the final response that much worse. 

If in the end, complaints and charges are filed, it should be considered that given that dendrobates are considered wildlife, they were stolen, and given the value, it is possible that Lacy act charges could also be filed (transport of illegally taken wildlife). The threshold value for felony charges under the act as $350, which the retail price of the frogs easily exceeds. 

Ed


----------



## markpulawski

I would also say that word was given that give them back and anonymous you will be, done promptly likely end of discussion and controversy. 
Putting a fire out is much easier when it starts.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

Two comments,

- I'm not sure how the person in question contacted Ray, but it wouldn't be difficult for this person to email Ray from an anonymous address and claim another person's name as his own. So I hope whoever thinks they know the identity of this person, or the full details of the situation, has made some effort to ensure the accuracy of that information before falling into false assumptions.

- The frogs in question were being sold by Julio to Chris. When I last checked at the time of the meeting, the transaction hadn't yet completed and the financial loss was just as much Julio's as it was Chris'. 

This situation damaged the local community in a few ways as has already been said. People lost frogs, were affected financially, felt violated and established trust was broken. Getting the frogs back is the first step in the process of repair, and I don't expect there to be another meeting at Scott's unless he is provided with some type of reassuring info (whether he knows the identity or the meeting becomes invite only), but it's important not to get so caught up in accountability that we lose sight of the search for accurate information and respecting agreements that were between other people.


----------



## billschwinn

In Florida when theft of wildlife occurs it is better to prosecute through Fl. Fish and Wildlife as they prosecute more aggressively and take into acct well being and lost productivity from the loss, etc. So the penalty and restitution phase of case is much more damaging to the thief. Many local police agencys don't take animal theft seriously, just something to consider if this victim keeps getting Played as it seems he is, Bill


----------



## frogface

I don't want to speak for Chris, but, I will. 

From the conversations I had with him, this wasn't about money or potential financial loss. It was about the frogs and the theft.

Please correct me if I've got this wrong, Chris.


----------



## stemcellular

Corpus Callosum said:


> Two comments,
> 
> - I'm not sure how the person in question contacted Ray, but it wouldn't be difficult for this person to email Ray from an anonymous address and claim another person's name as his own. So I hope whoever thinks they know the identity of this person, or the full details of the situation, has made some effort to ensure the accuracy of that information before falling into false assumptions.
> 
> - The frogs in question were being sold by Julio to Chris. When I last checked at the time of the meeting, the transaction hadn't yet completed and the financial loss was just as much Julio's as it was Chris'.
> 
> This situation damaged the local community in a few ways as has already been said. People lost frogs, were affected financially, felt violated and established trust was broken. Getting the frogs back is the first step in the process of repair, and I don't expect there to be another meeting at Scott's unless he is provided with some type of reassuring info (whether he knows the identity or the meeting becomes invite only), but it's important not to get so caught up in accountability that we lose sight of the search for accurate information and respecting agreements that were between other people.


Well put, Mike. As for this person's attendance at future meetings, etc., she/he pretty much guaranteed that they would self-exclude due to fear of retribution. I would really not worry about this person showing up as human nature pretty much dictates that they believe I will share their identity once this whole fiasco is over. 

Also, as a little background to assuage the fears of everyone, from talking with this person I think it was a crime of the moment, with the impetus for their coming forward both my offer and a real embarrassment and regret over how divisive this has proven within our community. My feeling is that he/she did not expect the amount of open hostility and real world implications on the community. I honestly think this situation will be resolved and we will be able to move forward with some semblance of restitution for all parties involved. 

However, while I understand the natural inclination to escalate, esp. by those not directly involved in this situation (ie. those that live outside our region, weren't at the meeting, etc), please understand that by doing so based on nothing but conjecture you run the risk of creating even more issues.

Happy Holidays, folks.


----------



## Brien

If the person used a anonymous email you can still find out who they really are you can get their secondary email from the fake email account they setup or you can get their ip address from the fake email account and back trace it to where he's using his computer or phone.


----------



## stemcellular

There really isn't any need as we know who the person is. It wasn't that large of a meeting!


----------



## Web Wheeler

Simple solution... if this person/persons ever shows up at another MADS meeting, just out him/her/them. Otherwise, keep your word/agreements.


----------



## stemcellular

We have now 100% identified the person who took the frogs. I hate to be like this but if I don't hear back by tomorrow I'm releasing your info to the masses.


----------



## Dartfrogfreak

Wow I thought this matter was resolved the last time I read the MADS thread.

I havent been following this thread.

I was at meeting atleast another hour after Josh left.

Scott and I looked at the frogs talking to each other and wondering what they were. These frogs were odd for Blue Jeans atleast from the photos Ive seen of the morph.

About 20 mins to half hour after Scott and I were talking about the frogs. someone noticed them gone. we all heavily looked for these animals and they were not in Scotts basement.



I REALLY hope this issue is resolved soon. BTW it is in my honest opinion this was no accident. and I wanna know who did it. 


Todd


----------



## jig1

Dartfrogfreak said:


> I REALLY hope this issue is resolved soon. BTW it is in my honest opinion this was no accident. and I wanna know who did it.
> 
> 
> Todd


tune in tomorrow same bat time same bat channel lol


----------



## billschwinn

frogface said:


> I don't want to speak for Chris, but, I will.
> 
> From the conversations I had with him, this wasn't about money or potential financial loss. It was about the frogs and the theft.
> 
> Please correct me if I've got this wrong, Chris.


Nothing gets results like a hit in the wallet thanks to our materialistic culture, that is why I posted that, some in law enforcement may not take frog theft seriously. I had a similar experience with orchid thefts until the Sherrif Office advised perp of the penaltys, Bill


----------



## frogface

billschwinn said:


> Nothing gets results like a hit in the wallet thanks to our materialistic culture, that is why I posted that, some in law enforcement may not take frog theft seriously. I had a similar experience with orchid thefts until the Sherrif Office advised perp of the penaltys, Bill


I may have been projecting, anyway. Chris might not get as unnaturally attached to his frogs as I do to mine.


----------



## AaronAcker

Philsuma said:


> ok...here's another tact:
> 
> I'll offer up a sexed pair of Eldorados and 2 more sub adults to replace Chris's financial loss. He can either keep them or they can be sold at frogday or some other venue and turned into cash.
> 
> Now we won't have to worry about anyone holding the frogs "hostage".
> 
> The attitudes of some people relative to this incident makes me sick.


This does show a lot of class. I hope that this gets resolved for everyone' sake. Chris send me a PM here soon.


----------



## rcteem

Well today is here and still no word from the perp. I understand that everyone wants to know who it was but first their are a few who deserve to know first. They are in order:

Me
Julio
Scott
Mods
then yall

I have tried to be polite about this and given you every chance possible just to have you delay more and more. I give the mods permission to due what they think best but I know facts are out there and I WANT ANSWERS!!!! Christmas is almost here and Im not going to ask Matt to reschedule his holiday for you.


----------



## rcteem

Phil,

I think that is very nice of you to offer your frogs to help me out. If you would please pm me your number again Ill call you tonight and fill you in on some things.

Kris,
This is 1st imortance of this issue is the balls this thief had. Second, the trust he betrayed that everyone has for each other in this hobby. Now I have to be an ass and not trust anyone. Third, it is a lil about the money as I dont have an extra $1,000 just laying around to buy two pairs of these frogs


----------



## billschwinn

I looked high and low, did I miss the announcement


----------



## Ulisesfrb

Not sure if my previous post was considered. The cash value of these frogs would be a huge dent on anyones wallet. I suggest Phil does a raffle on the frogs he offered to Chris. I'm not sure if it's possible, but perhaps he can sell a certain amount of ticket numbers here on DB. The proceeds would go to help Chris and Phil to cover for the frogs. I know the most important issue is the violation of trust that occurred, but we can't deny that none of us have money laying around.


----------



## stemcellular

You know what they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Sadly, I've been unable to get the person to confirm a delivery or dropoff. Its been more than enough time and I've invested a lot of energy trying to help this person right their wrong. However, I no longer believe that they are making a real effort to return the frogs and have given a final deadline of this evening, after which I'm done dealing with this in any form. I'll leave it up to Julio and Chris to decide upon the next steps.


----------



## afterdark

From an outside perspective, this has gone on for a long while and has been very well documented throughout (multiple witnesses, communications with the thief). Since the frogs have not been returned, I would expect that Chris and/or Julio and/or the host should be in contact with the police. I would imagine they would have to take this seriously, given the value of the frogs involved.


----------



## vivlover10

Who ever took the frogs, really? I am just a kid and just got into the hobby but common sense people steeling= bad, getting a second chance and return frogs=good. I would inform the police but this board I no for shore is filled with good people but am learning now that there may be bad. My parents always told me to do the right thing. obviously this has gone way to far.


----------



## rcteem

Ok, I done being held back by the mods and have permission to take it in my own hands from the mods so here we go!!!!

Ok here are the facts. I have your IP Address, I have your username on here, and I have the location of where your IP Adress is coming from. I might be even able to get your cell number form the email you sent an email from your blackberry. Your a dumbass for not solving this already with the easy way out. [email protected]#K YOU and dont let me hear of you doing this shit again.

Everyone, I can not post his name on the open forum here but can on another one . Feel free to pm me though and I will gladly share. I have requested that the mods ban this F'er from here just like they have with someone else. 

I hope that you are happy buddy for what you have done and damaged the trust of us all!!!!!! Julio and I both have decided to take a loss of possibly not seeing these frogs again as letting people know about this asshole is worth 10x more!!!!!

Prepared to be shocked people!!!!


----------



## JJuchems

"Like sand through the vivarium, so are the day of our live." 

It is really sad to read all of this, one idiot to break a great group of froggers.

Edit: Please don't become an invite only group. I would love to visit you guys on the east coast.


----------



## frogface

Chris I'm so sorry. That really sucks 

I have to say, though, I'm not shocked (saw your other post).


----------



## Scott

If you have enough evidence, why are you not taking this to the police?

Too much hassle? I'd understand if that's the reason - but that would really be a bummer that this person wouldn't get what's coming to him. Obviously none of us will ever do business with him again if that's how he wants it.

s


----------



## frogface

In addition to police


From Ed, post 185 on this thread:

I will say that the person who has the frog's if they are reading this thread, that not returning the frogs is going to make the final response that much worse.



> If in the end, complaints and charges are filed, it should be considered that given that dendrobates are considered wildlife, they were stolen, and given the value, it is possible that Lacy act charges could also be filed (transport of illegally taken wildlife). The threshold value for felony charges under the act as $350, which the retail price of the frogs easily exceeds.


----------



## SMenigoz

The cat is finally out of the bag. I've received notice and am truely disappointed. I believe the evidence which was presented to me and am confident. 
Looking forward, this person(and associates)shall never be welcomed to any MADS meetings, will be shunned at any and all shows I go to and hope they feel the BJ frogs were worth it.
Best of luck in this tight community.
Scott


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Well, lets hope when his baby grows up he won`t be following in daddys foot steps.

John


----------



## melas

Okay so this is out there now . . . I've kept quiet on this thread as I was trying to remain neutral. I was asked to meet the self-admitted thief to get the frogs so that I could get them to Chris. I was contacted by Ray because of my proximity to the thief. My main concern in all of this was to first get the frogs back. Since that is no longer on the table here is what I know:

I will not devulge the person's name on here either - please contact Chris for that info. I have to say that I am INCREDIBLY upset by this whole thing and am very angry that this all went down at Scott's house. He has been nothing but the most GRACIOUS host and to betray his trust like this is absolutely horrendous!

I was in contact with the individual, let's call him Beelzebub early last week. I sent many emails back and forth trying to arrange for a pick up. Beelzebub did not want to call me over the phone but only wanted to use email. It was obvious that he just went out to hotmail and created some bogus account. We lost contact with him for a day and he had to contact Ray again to get my info because he lost the credentials to his account. His new account was the same as before but with a 1 on the end of it . . . so it was incredibly obvious that the account was created for the sole purpose of this thing.

Beelzebub continued to stall and complain about the distance, the economy, blah blah blah. I tried to remain neutral and understanding while forceful in trying to get him to meet me ASAP. He told us the area he was from and it was only an hour away from where I worked so I didn't think it was a big deal.

Ray and I started becoming very agitated with the stalling and so Ray asked, with my IT background, if there was anything I could do. I did some digging on the email headers and found that the email was being sent from a specific IP address and that it was NOT from where Beelzebub said he was from. A few hundred miles away in fact . . . so I alerted Ray to this and he compared it to the DB login IP's and it matched. It matched one individual. Ray contacted this individual directly and called him out over his personal email. The email we received back from this individual (we'll call him Lucifer) just so happened to be sent from the exact same IP address as the one's sent from Beelzebub and was also the same as Lucifer's DB IP address . . . 

It would seem we had the thief caught red-handed. There are literally 4 billion possible IP address combinations. So the chance of this being a coincidence are essentially NONE. Presented with this information Lucifer denied the allegations and has tried to pass this off as being due to their involvement in play World of Warcraft. After several emails with Lucifer we found that he was holding to his "innocence" despite the information. At the same time we were making contact with Beelzebub. His attitude changed drastically - going from being extremely apologetic to antagonizing.

Also upon learning of the IP address issue BOTH Lucifer and Beelzebub's IP addresses changed. Beelzebub is now contacting us from a Blackberry that is also in the same area as Lucifer.

Another important clue that I found was that Beelzebub had continually misspelled the word "rough" - several times and spelled incorrectly in the same way each time. After doing a search on DB I found a post by Lucifer where he spelled it the same way . . .

I made no promises of confidentiality so here's everything I know. I have the emails, IP's, etc and will be MORE than happy to cooperate with the police. I would encourage Chris and Julio to pursue this as there is MORE than enough forensic network evidence to lock this up.

Sorry if this is a bit frazzled but I am really upset. I considered this guy a close friend. So many times I went back and forth on this but there is no denying this evidence . . . Lucifer . . . I considered you a true friend. I'm sorry this is the way it's going to go down but it was your choice.


----------



## rcteem

Scott said:


> If you have enough evidence, why are you not taking this to the police?
> 
> Too much hassle? I'd understand if that's the reason - but that would really be a bummer that this person wouldn't get what's coming to him. Obviously none of us will ever do business with him again if that's how he wants it.
> 
> s


It is a multi state case, afraid we have waited to long, and police probably wont take stolen frogs seriously and ask me for a drug test...lol.

JoshK, empty your pms so I can pm you 

Sorry again for a short response but have 15 pms and growing to answer. I greatly appreciate all your offers to help out in any way and your responses dont fall on deaf ears. I will talk with Julio and Phil later on tonight to figure something out.

I feel like though someone who deserves an apology just as much as Julio and I is Scott!!!! Scott, I am so sorry this asshole has done this to you and betrayed your trust and even insulted you. You have been an amazing help to the Mid-Atlantic people by your generosity and being a gracious host several times. I am honored to have the privileged to see your collection and hope the few of us involved in this affair can figure out a way not to punish the hobby because of this one DICK!!! Thank you again for everything Scott and am truly sorry for the way you have been effected.


----------



## NathanB

I'm not surprised at all. I hope charges can still be filed, Phil could be of help in that department.


----------



## rcteem

melas said:


> Okay so this is out there now . . . I've kept quiet on this thread as I was trying to remain neutral. I was asked to meet the self-admitted thief to get the frogs so that I could get them to Chris. I was contacted by Ray because of my proximity to the thief. My main concern in all of this was to first get the frogs back. Since that is no longer on the table here is what I know:
> 
> I will not devulge the person's name on here either - please contact Chris for that info. I have to say that I am INCREDIBLY upset by this whole thing and am very angry that this all went down at Scott's house. He has been nothing but the most GRACIOUS host and to betray his trust like this is absolutely horrendous!
> 
> I was in contact with the individual, let's call him Beelzebub early last week. I sent many emails back and forth trying to arrange for a pick up. Beelzebub did not want to call me over the phone but only wanted to use email. It was obvious that he just went out to hotmail and created some bogus account. We lost contact with him for a day and he had to contact Ray again to get my info because he lost the credentials to his account. His new account was the same as before but with a 1 on the end of it . . . so it was incredibly obvious that the account was created for the sole purpose of this thing.
> 
> Beelzebub continued to stall and complain about the distance, the economy, blah blah blah. I tried to remain neutral and understanding while forceful in trying to get him to meet me ASAP. He told us the area he was from and it was only an hour away from where I worked so I didn't think it was a big deal.
> 
> Ray and I started becoming very agitated with the stalling and so Ray asked, with my IT background, if there was anything I could do. I did some digging on the email headers and found that the email was being sent from a specific IP address and that it was NOT from where Beelzebub said he was from. A few hundred miles away in fact . . . so I alerted Ray to this and he compared it to the DB login IP's and it matched. It matched one individual. Ray contacted this individual directly and called him out over his personal email. The email we received back from this individual (we'll call him Lucifer) just so happened to be sent from the exact same IP address as the one's sent from Beelzebub and was also the same as Lucifer's DB IP address . . .
> 
> It would seem we had the thief caught red-handed. There are literally 4 billion possible IP address combinations. So the chance of this being a coincidence are essentially NONE. Presented with this information Lucifer denied the allegations and has tried to pass this off as being due to their involvement in play World of Warcraft. After several emails with Lucifer we found that he was holding to his "innocence" despite the information. At the same time we were making contact with Beelzebub. His attitude changed drastically - going from being extremely apologetic to antagonizing.
> 
> Also upon learning of the IP address issue BOTH Lucifer and Beelzebub's IP addresses changed. Beelzebub is now contacting us from a Blackberry that is also in the same area as Lucifer.
> 
> Another important clue that I found was that Beelzebub had continually misspelled the word "rough" - several times and spelled incorrectly in the same way each time. After doing a search on DB I found a post by Lucifer where he spelled it the same way . . .
> 
> I made no promises of confidentiality so here's everything I know. I have the emails, IP's, etc and will be MORE than happy to cooperate with the police. I would encourage Chris and Julio to pursue this as there is MORE than enough forensic network evidence to lock this up.
> 
> Sorry if this is a bit frazzled but I am really upset. I considered this guy a close friend. So many times I went back and forth on this but there is no denying this evidence . . . Lucifer . . . I considered you a true friend. I'm sorry this is the way it's going to go down but it was your choice.


^^Thx...dont have my button!!!!


----------



## GBIII

I'm at a loss for words....This is truly disappointing.

George


----------



## SMenigoz

rcteem said:


> Scott, I am so sorry this asshole has done this to you and betrayed your trust and even insulted you. You have been an amazing help to the Mid-Atlantic people by your generosity and being a gracious host several times.


Thanks for the kind words Chris--I will not let the actions of a few idiots spoil the benefits gained by the MADS group. 
If police action is the path forward, I will cooperate fully. With the speed at which this has gone tonight, I doubt the persons will be able to sell anything ever again. Thats just fine by me.
Now get back to your PMs!!
Scott


----------



## rcteem

SMenigoz said:


> Now get back to your PMs!!
> Scott


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Yes Sir gladly...also openly posted his name on another forum


----------



## Brotherly Monkey

Scott said:


> If you have enough evidence, why are you not taking this to the police?
> 
> Too much hassle? I'd understand if that's the reason - but that would really be a bummer that this person wouldn't get what's coming to him. Obviously none of us will ever do business with him again if that's how he wants it.
> 
> s



especially if there are emails from him confessing to the crime


----------



## melas

Brotherly Monkey said:


> especially if there are emails from him confessing to the crime


Oh there are . . . several actually . . . all from the same IP address as the emails coming from the Identified culprit . . .


----------



## Baltimore Bryan

Wow, I'm sorry to hear it had to go down this way. I never met the guy so I didn't know him, but that is disappointing and cowardly. Scott, I am truly sorry that this happened in your own home. This was my first MADS meeting and it's a shame what happened, but I hope we can still find a way to keep the meets going. Chris and Julio, again very sorry about what happened and let us know if there is anything we can do. Thanks to Matt and Ray and anyone else who was involved in trying to help rectify the situation.
Bryan


----------



## rcteem

Phil,

Sorry if I dont seem appreciative of your offer. I am very appreciative of your post and that is above and beyond necessary. I honestly dont know how to respond to this as Im in complete shock and awe still from the post. PM me with your number when you get a chance


----------



## Azurel

I would still contact the police, maybe State police, theft across state lines is a fed offense. I don't think it will matter if it is frogs but the $1000 value that can be proven based on the market price will be what is important. 

I would not wait longer to get it to the police that is where this should be taken A.S.A.P. 

Sorry this went down it is amazing how someones true colors come out at the least expected times. I know who I will not be doing business with ever........I hope in the end this person gets what they deserve, fate has a terrible way of finding it's way back to those that test it.


----------



## NathanB

I think scott would be the one to contact the police since it was taken from his home right?


----------



## SMenigoz

bussardnr said:


> I think scott would be the one to contact the police since it was taken from his home right?


My neighbor works for the D.C. Police-- I will inquire with him as to my options. Having said that, I believe the worst thing that could happen (for the thief) HAS happened--
Scott


----------



## Azurel

Honestly I am not sure, I would assume it would be Chris since he is the one that would since he was the one that was party to the cash transaction. I can see where both could do it though...


----------



## rcteem

bussardnr said:


> I think scott would be the one to contact the police since it was taken from his home right?


but wasnt his property...not sure how to handle this situation...Ill discuss this with Scott, Julio, and myself and we will make the call...thx for the help though. I am just worried though this will hurt the hobby more as questionable legal frogs were stolen and could cause more reasons for the USF&W to get involved in our hobby.


----------



## rcteem

SMenigoz said:


> Having said that, I believe the worst thing that could happen (for the thief) HAS happened--
> Scott


Couldn't agree more!!!!


----------



## frogface

I wonder if this should be taken to Fauna Classifieds BoI.


----------



## Philsuma

I just got in ......I'll start hitting people up by phone presently. If it's too late and you don't answer, I'll leave a message. I'll be availble to talk all day tomorrow ( Weds).

If my involvement is finally "green lit"......police involvement will be 100%.

I would like to thank Ray and Matt and any others for their supreme efforts to go the specific way that they tried to go. I understand the patience and the tolerance that you both attempted, even though that course of action would not have been my choice.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

I really don`t know what the hell you were thinking ( you must be following this thread)
I mean, part of the enjoyment of having frogs as special as these is sharing them with the community right?
You just lost about 100 good friends.
I hope you still don`t think it was worth it.

John


----------



## melas

Okay so Lucifer just text'd me. Threatened the need for Lawyers and sapenas(sic). 

Lucifer - I have only provided the FACTS. The impotetus is on YOU to provide a way that your IP address matches that of Beezlebubs! We are not trying to "pin" anything on you. The facts speak for themselves. This would be one HELL of an elaborate hoax if someone was trying "frame" you . . . sorry bud - this is the bed you have made. I would MUCH prefer this never happened. Believe me. I am crushed and have been SICK since I found this info out. And it is NOT against the law for me to pass out your IP. It would be against the law for anyone to use it unlawfully gain access to your computer systems . . . please . . .


----------



## SMenigoz

melas said:


> Okay so Lucifer just text'd me. Threatened the need for Lawyers and sapenas(sic).


Matt, you receive my FULL support, and gratitude, for simply stating the facts. 
Scott


----------



## melas

Philsuma said:


> I understand the patience and the tolerance that you both attempted, even though that course of action would not have been my choice.


You would have NOTHING otherwise . . . we have quite the trail and multiple confessions . . . what would you have?


----------



## Scott

Man, that's ruff.



melas said:


> Okay so Lucifer just text'd me. Threatened the need for Lawyers and sapenas(sic).


----------



## Philsuma

melas said:


> You would have NOTHING otherwise . . . we have quite the trail and multiple confessions . . . what would you have?


 
Are you chastising me ? Maybe you want to make fun of my law enforcement career while your'e at it Matt ?

Glad you are so sure of yourself.......*SO *great to see that post of yours


----------



## billschwinn

Could someone please pm me with what I missed( the who-dunnit!), thank you Bill Thank you all for the pm's


----------



## Ed

SMenigoz said:


> Matt, you receive my FULL support, and gratitude, for simply stating the facts.
> Scott


 
Ditto... 

Ed


----------



## ChrisK

OK well as a last ditch effort and for Chris' and the frogs' sake, anyone think a 24 hour window to get the frogs to Matt before LE is brought in would work?


----------



## M_Rybecky

I was just informed of who did this... I'm *not* supprised. I had a hunch when I first heard about it. This person lost my trust a few months ago when we traded some frogs. It involved him, another member on DB and myself. He still owed me the value of one female Leuc for months. At the time of the trade he didnt want to give me the money for her so we decided that he would pay me back when I wanted something he was breeding... I got the male leuc that the third party but only after I drove to his house to get him. It seemed sketchy cause I had to keep calling him and texting him to make an arrangemment, my boyfriend who came with me remembers how weird he was being. The time came that I was interested in something he had and he claimed that the leuc I gave him died so pretty much he didnt owe me anything.... From that day on I have not trused him. 

I'm sorry for my typing and long story... I'm not very good with words.

Chris, Julio, Scott. I'm sorry this happend. Its heart breaking. If there is some sort of raffle I will be sure to buy a ticket to help!!! I wish I had something useful or of value to offer but all I got is friendship, support and a promis that I and many others on this board CAN be trusted and would never even think of doing something like this.


----------



## Ed

Dude it wasn't worth it.. cough the frogs up.. go hide in the corner and hope someone, somewhere, someday will talk frogs with you again.. 

Bum bum bum

He blew it!

He's sorry

He knew it!

So sorry

He's very very sorry that he took the precious frogs! 

Last line deleted on purpose...


----------



## paintballislife

wheres this guy live? ill take a road trip with some friends.


----------



## SMenigoz

ChrisK said:


> OK well as a last ditch effort and for Chris' and the frogs' sake, anyone think a 24 hour window to get the frogs to Matt before LE is brought in would work?


Why bother? I say let him keep them as a reminder--look at them everyday--and think was it worth it?
Scott


----------



## JoshH

Now I'm curious as hell as to whether I've traded or sold to this person before...if someone could PM me the details it would be most appreciated. Thanks....


----------



## mantisdragon91

ChrisK said:


> OK well as a last ditch effort and for Chris' and the frogs' sake, anyone think a 24 hour window to get the frogs to Matt before LE is brought in would work?


The longer you wait at this point the more time there is for some to cover their trail. I think at this point this has dragged on way to long as it. Present whatever evidence there is and have the chips fall where they may.


----------



## Woodsman

I'm not surprised either. He always wanted to be big in the dart frog world. Guess he got what he wanted!

Richard.


----------



## paintballislife

mantisdragon91 said:


> The longer you wait at this point the more time there is for some to cover their trail. I think at this point this has dragged on way to long as it. Present whatever evidence there is and have the chips fall where they may.


I would tend to agree, limit the amount of time he has to hurt the frogs.


----------



## melas

Philsuma said:


> Are you chastising me ? Maybe you want to make fun of my law enforcement career while your'e at it Matt ?
> 
> Glad you are so sure of yourself.......*SO *great to see that post of yours


No Phil no chastising here  . . . just annoyed that the week and half worth of work on Ray and my part was still not enough for you. All we were worried about was the health and safety of the frogs. Pushing someone right off the bat would have surely ended up in flushed frogs. We do not have circumstantial evidence. We have cold hard facts. Data that can be backed up by an affidavit with the ISP's involved. 

If you WANT chastised perhaps I'll post a pic of that Auratus tank you had when I first met you . . . 

Get a life . . .


----------



## Philsuma

Go to Dartfrogz.com for more info

Marty's site will b blowin' up 2nite fer sur


----------



## rcteem

Please pm me if you want to know...more than happy to share!!!!!


----------



## rcteem

Philsuma said:


> Go to Dartfrogz.com for more info
> 
> Marty's site will b blowin' up 2nite fer sur


Thank you Marty for allowing me to post this there openly!!!!


----------



## paintballislife

melas said:


> Okay so Lucifer just text'd me. Threatened the need for Lawyers and sapenas(sic).
> 
> Lucifer - I have only provided the FACTS. .



BTW you dont need subpoenas for what you did. Any oddjob can do that.


----------



## MD_Frogger

Woodsman said:


> He always wanted to be big in the dart frog world.


Such high aspirations


----------



## melas

paintballislife said:


> BTW you dont need subpoenas for what you did. Any oddjob can do that.


Yeah HE threatened ME with that . . . I'm an Oracle DBA / Web Developer so yeah . . . I'm no networking genious . . .


----------



## Scott

Boy - I sure wish the person had followed through.

We can still believe in people - just not all of them.

s


DCreptiles said:


> Wow I am EXTREMELY happy to hear that the person has taken ray up on his offer. this is very good news.
> 
> This just goes to show that although we all knew the chances were very slim, we can still believe in people.
> 
> Ray by all means keep us posted on this transaction and let us know it was completed.


----------



## Philsuma

melas said:


> No Phil no chastising here  . . . just annoyed that the week and half worth of work on Ray and my part was still not enough for you. All we were worried about was the health and safety of the frogs. Pushing someone right off the bat would have surely ended up in flushed frogs. We do not have circumstantial evidence. We have cold hard facts. Data that can be backed up by an affidavit with the ISP's involved.
> 
> If you WANT chastised perhaps I'll post a pic of that Auratus tank you had when I first met you . . .
> 
> Get a life . . .


Now now Broseph....lets not get out the heavy North Korean artillery here. WE are ALL friends here with the exception of a couple of people...

I think your sarcasm alert is broken. I am honestly thankful to you and Ray both....even though Ray doesn't like me....I thank him too. 

You know me well enough by now....I'm still very much a type "A" personality and have retained the police mindset. It never leaves you -trust me. I would have done things differently but you did very well. I heard you were "on this" a few days ago and I was glad, because I know what you can do, as well.

Sorry for the confusion, my brother......I'm available....should you need me.


----------



## melas

Philsuma said:


> Now now Broseph....lets not get out the heavy North Korean artillery here. WE are ALL friends here with the exception of a couple of people...
> 
> I think your sarcasm alert is broken. I am honestly thankful to you and Ray both....even though Ray doesn't like me....I thank him too.
> 
> You know me well enough by now....I'm still very much a type "A" personality and have retained the police mindset. It never leaves you -trust me. I would have done things differently but you did very well. I heard you "on this" a few days ago and I was glad, because I know what you can do, as well.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, my brother......I'm available....should you need me.


Apology accepted . . . thank you. Just counted . . . 57 emails from Ray over the last few days . . . back to my "real" life . . .


----------



## DCreptiles

Generally speaking, defamation is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. Slander involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.

Typically, the elements of a cause of action for defamation include:

1. A false and defamatory statement concerning another;
2. The unprivileged publication of the statement to a third party (that is, somebody other than the person defamed by the statement);
3. If the defamatory matter is of public concern, fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher; and
4. Damage to the plaintiff.

In the context of defamation law, a statement is "published" when it is made to the third party. That term does not mean that the statement has to be in print.

Damages are typically to the reputation of the plaintiff, but depending upon the laws of the jurisdiction it may be enough to establish mental anguish.

Most jurisdictions also recognize "per se" defamation, where the allegations are presumed to cause damage to the plaintiff. Typically, the following may consititute defamation per se:

* Attacks on a person's professional character or standing;
* Allegations that an unmarried person is unchaste;
* Allegations that a person is infected with a sexually transmitted disease;
* Allegations that the person has committed a crime of moral turpitude;

While actions for defamation have their roots in common law, most jurisdictions have now enacted statutes which modify the common law. They may change the elements of the cause of action, limit when an action may be filed, or modify the defenses to an action for defamation. Some may even require that the defendant be given an opportunity to apologize before the plaintiff can seek non-economic damages.

so basically there has been lots of talk here and behind the scenes. will someone please pm me or email me of their findings?


----------



## SMenigoz

Scott said:


> Boy - I sure wish the person had followed through.
> 
> We can still believe in people - just not all of them.
> 
> s


Nice find Scott! Isn't it now past your bedtime


----------



## stemcellular

I don't dislike you Phil, I just think you can be a PITA! 



Philsuma said:


> Now now Broseph....lets not get out the heavy North Korean artillery here. WE are ALL friends here with the exception of a couple of people...
> 
> I think your sarcasm alert is broken. I am honestly thankful to you and Ray both....even though Ray doesn't like me....I thank him too.
> 
> You know me well enough by now....I'm still very much a type "A" personality and have retained the police mindset. It never leaves you -trust me. I would have done things differently but you did very well. I heard you "on this" a few days ago and I was glad, because I know what you can do, as well.
> 
> Sorry for the confusion, my brother......I'm available....should you need me.


----------



## mantisdragon91

stemcellular said:


> I don't dislike you Phil, I just think you can be a PITA!


A middle eastern flat bread? Well he is small and flaky

I kid I kid!!!


----------



## NathanB

> Yeah HE threatened ME with that . . . I'm an Oracle DBA / Web Developer so yeah . . . I'm no networking genious . . .


dont worry matt, I'll visit you in prison and you can look at my frogs though the glass


----------



## Scott

I live in AZ now - 2 hours earlier here.

But otherwise you're right - I'd be sound asleep by now.

What's your excuse?!?

Oh yeah ...

s


SMenigoz said:


> Nice find Scott! Isn't it now past your bedtime


----------



## JoshH

All I can say right now is....wow, not expected!


----------



## Philsuma

IP Addresses
Text messages
Emails

all easily subpoenaed. 

and the phone call I got early on indicated there IS a witness to this.

a....*witness*


----------



## melas

bussardnr said:


> dont worry matt, I'll visit you in prison and you can look at my frogs though the glass


Dang . . . glass . . . that's for real hard asses! Sweet! 

Though I did always imagine myself as more of a "bars" kind of guy . . . imagined hanging off of them and doing some sweet summersaults . . .


----------



## Philsuma

melas said:


> Dang . . . glass . . . that's for real hard asses! Sweet!
> 
> Though I did always imagine myself as more of a "bars" kind of guy . . . imagined hanging off of them and doing some sweet summersaults . . .


Here ya go Matt.....my DB "required" moment of levity for this sit-che-ation:


----------



## DCreptiles

from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense? 

so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


----------



## frogface

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


It's been 10 days. How much time should it take to drop the frogs off with a local go-between?


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Man, I was just about to go to bed.

John


----------



## SMenigoz

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


Hmm... lets ask the person who took the frogs. Why are we speaking in third person??


----------



## ChrisK

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Man, I was just about to go to bed.
> 
> John


Crack open a beer -


----------



## JoshH

I may have another plant package available if anyone wishes to decorate their jail cell


----------



## Ed

ChrisK said:


> Crack open a beer -


Making popcorn....


----------



## NathanB

SMenigoz said:


> Hmm... lets ask the person who took the frogs. Why are we speaking in third person??


i dont think thats really the 3rd person, I think hes going for the crazy defense


----------



## Ulisesfrb

ChrisK said:


> Crack open a beer -


Beer??? Please, I'm going for my tequila bottle.


----------



## ridinshotgun

ChrisK said:


> Crack open a beer -


Ohhh and I got the popcorn......

(Damn beaten by Ed!)


----------



## Marty71

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


Great insight. It almost seems like you were able to get into the mind of the guy that took the frogs....


----------



## topherlove

JoshH said:


> I may have another plant package available if anyone wishes to decorate their jail cell


do you have any low light epihytes i'm sure they'd grow great in the concrete cracks


----------



## SMenigoz

Refresh, refresh, refresh...


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

ChrisK said:


> Crack open a beer -


I don`t drink Chris.....But I do have something better.

John


----------



## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


Dude, Really??


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Marty71 said:


> Great insight. It almost seems like you were able to get into the mind of the guy that took the frogs....


Marty, you really need to post more often.

John


----------



## Woodsman

Announcing the new "frog man" of Alcatraz. Just give back the f'ing frogs!!!!!


----------



## Philsuma

and this, folks.....is what it looks like to utterly fall down.

Ugly, ain't it?


Chris...I PM'ed ya my cell....


----------



## Julio

Thanks to all who had a helping hand in bringing all the facts to light! 

Chris, Scott and I will talk things out and see where we will go further on this issue. 

The frog community is a close one and taking things from one another is not cool when more things are given away among each other then sold. Its too bad that this has put a big black eye on our meetings and we hope that things like this will certainly not happen in the future.


----------



## SMenigoz

Ed said:


> Dude, Really??


Phil. Phil....where are you Phil?


----------



## Julio

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


 the address was provided and the person did not know how to ship!


----------



## melas

This person stated that they had never shipped frogs before. We agreed that it would be better to deliver them by hand to avoid any mishaps. He agreed to that as well. We were working on ways to get them to me at work. He wouldn't have to get out of his car. No questions asked. I intended at the beginning to honor Ray's deal. He agreed. However, he kept bitching about how far it was (only an hour from the location he stated he was at). We told him to suck it up and consider himself lucky Law Enforcement wasn't being called. He kept suggesting we wait until January when he had more time. We said no. Gave him until the end of this week to deliver. We offered to let him drop them off to Ray along the side of a highway (he would be near one of his holiday travel routes for the holidays). He never got back to us . . . this is NOT a kangaroo court. I have the emails. You can review the headers yourself. The IP of the SELF ADMITTED CULPRIT and the IP of the person who has been identified MATCHED EXACTLY. That is all I am saying . . . If you want to believe that the russian mob is out to frame this guy for stealing some tropical frogs then so be it. I merely posted this info so the community could decide for themselves!

Brave . . .VERY BRAVE!


----------



## JJuchems

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


The frogs were taken at a meet-up, their is no need for shipping and risk the health of the frogs taken. Take the time to correct the error of "your" ways and learn a lesson. The shuffling of feet really speaks to character of the individual involved. 

"Kangaroo court" really, follow the terms or have charges pressed, a police investigation, and end up in a real court. Thats a tough choice. We all have made stupid mistakes. It is also about correcting "yourself" and the harm that has been done. The "person" involved has had plenty of time.

*Just give the frogs back!*


----------



## JeremyHuff

Very disappointed in you! I am glad you didn't decide to pocket some of my frogs which you were standing by all day. It is amazing that the 2 guys you were with and claim earlier in this thread to have so many blue jeans, couldn't give you one of their spare pairs.


----------



## Philsuma

SMenigoz said:


> Phil. Phil....where are you Phil?


oh, I'm here.....

This is an EASY one, folks. Plently of ammunition for an investigation and I would be VERY suprised if a Maryland L.E agency would not file charges even after 2 weeks. It can be done.

And what's that you say?.....no evidence? No corpus delecti (Frogs) ?

Corpus schmorpus....I've seen people put away for 10 years on theft charges with much less than what we have here.

Heh.


----------



## JoshH

melas said:


> However, he kept bitching about how far it was (only an hour from the location he stated he was at)


hmmmm......how inconvenient for him! It really takes a special breed of turd to do this, and then continue to deny the truth.


----------



## JeremyHuff

I'll offer to drive to Jersey City and pick them up and then drive them into the city to Julio. I am free tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## JoshH

If necessary, there are more than enough people on here to all participate and transfer the frogs south, without anyone going too far out of the way. It would be safer then shipping....


----------



## SMenigoz

JeremyHuff said:


> I'll offer to drive to Jersey City and pick them up and then drive them into the city to Julio. I am free tomorrow afternoon.


Who you gonna meet with Jeremy...we've never ID'd the perp yet....


----------



## Scott

So get working on your next excuse Perp. You gotta be running low on them by now.

s


JeremyHuff said:


> I'll offer to drive to Jersey City and pick them up and then drive them into the city to Julio. I am free tomorrow afternoon.


----------



## melas

Yeah there's no need to get them to me anymore as it turns out they are not actually that close to me (3 hours away) . . . I'm still more than willing to help get them back but I think Jeremy Huff's offer is about as good as you are going to get . . .


----------



## M_Rybecky




----------



## paintballislife

anyways we can get IP's listed? I could always call in a personal army


----------



## frogface

paintballislife said:


> anyways we can get IP's listed? I could always call in a personal army


Uh oh ....


----------



## Paul G

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


Oh....I wouldn't worry....things will turn out for the best. 
After all....look at said person's job.

Occupation 
Crime pervention


----------



## insularexotics

SO can Scott, Chris & Julio all leave negative feedback on the "transaction" in the person's DB profile?  They were all involved in the transaction. I'm just glad the person hadn't taken a liking to mantellas when I had a table full for sale!


----------



## melas

If you are able to do something with them beyond what I have done I will email them to you . . . otherwise they are of no use. I won't post them here though. Perhaps someone else will . . .


----------



## AaronAcker

The only relevant thing I have to say is this: Its the holiday season, this is a tight community, which is something to be very proud of. Not too many places where people are willing to take time, money and help people out if they need it. Do the right thing, better do the smarter thing. Get the frogs back to Chris, stay out of any legal bs. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


----------



## frogface

melas said:


> If you are able to do something with them beyond what I have done I will email them to you . . . otherwise they are of no use. I won't post them here though. Perhaps someone else will . . .


The personal army is worse than the police


----------



## stemcellular

insularexotics said:


> SO can Scott, Chris & Julio all leave negative feedback on the "transaction" in the person's DB profile?  They were all involved in the transaction. I'm just glad the person hadn't taken a liking to mantellas when I had a table full for sale!


oh rich, we can't even give mantellas away! why would anyone want to take them! haha


----------



## Philsuma

I got a request for "more pics".......uh.....I'll try......


----------



## SMenigoz

I'm satisfied I've read enough of this sad, sad situation....at least for tonight.
To the perp--look back thru these pages, look back thru the MADS thread. You had every opportunity to return something you stole and we even were willing to look the other way. You could still be active in all the local meets, still met with friendliness at shows...and now look where you've ended up. 
I hear the turtle hobby is looking for people...


----------



## Marty

Philsuma said:


> Go to Dartfrogz.com for more info
> Marty's site will b blowin' up 2nite fer sur





rcteem said:


> Thank you Marty for allowing me to post this there openly!!!!


No problems!


----------



## Ed

I'm surprised that his friend page on this site is still fairly populated.. 

Ed


----------



## melas

SMenigoz said:


> I hear the turtle hobby is looking for people...


No we're not . . . I did hear the hermit crab guys are though!


----------



## ChrisK

Here's a crazy offer - if the person is located close to me, my place is a couple of minutes from the GW bridge, they (or someone they know) can drop the frogs off with my doorman (at a pre-determined general time) who will then call me to come down for a package, then Julio can get them from me...........


----------



## melas

Ed said:


> I'm surprised that his friend page on this site is still fairly populated..
> 
> Ed


Nuked him on mine and FB when this broke . . .


----------



## SMenigoz

Ed said:


> I'm surprised that his friend page on this site is still fairly populated..
> 
> Ed


Unchecked from mine already.


----------



## Philsuma

SMenigoz said:


> I hear the turtle hobby is looking for people...


 
No Scott...the turtle hobby won't have him. I dunno if the snake hobby will either.






Disclaimer: Please don't kill me snake peeps. I'm only a frog geek, afterall.....


----------



## insularexotics

melas said:


> No we're not . . . I did hear the hermit crab guys are though!


We're full up here too! Maybe try the pet slug people. They're alittle closer to your level.


----------



## Scott

Ha! I was going to point that out.

Get busy Perps, er... Peeps! 

s


Ed said:


> I'm surprised that his friend page on this site is still fairly populated..
> 
> Ed


----------



## Jason

To whoever took them:


----------



## JJuchems

SMenigoz said:


> I hear the turtle hobby is looking for people...


We don't want you either.


----------



## Philsuma

Ed said:


> I'm surprised that his friend page on this site is still fairly populated..
> 
> Ed


 
oh.....good call, Edward......clickity clack.


----------



## Jason




----------



## ChrisK

ChrisK said:


> Here's a crazy offer - if the person is located close to me, my place is a couple of minutes from the GW bridge, they (or someone they know) can drop the frogs off with my doorman (at a pre-determined general time) who will then call me to come down for a package, then Julio can get them from me...........


Anyone???????


----------



## SMenigoz

ChrisK said:


> Anyone???????


I'll extend the offer to have you drop off the frogs at my place too...you know the location. I'l help you up the stairs on the way out...


----------



## Philsuma

Here's another thought.....no offense Chris T., but who here would want to piss Julio off in any way shape or form?

Not I.


----------



## frogface

ChrisK said:


> Here's a crazy offer - if the person is located close to me, my place is a couple of minutes from the GW bridge, they (or someone they know) can drop the frogs off with my doorman (at a pre-determined general time) who will then call me to come down for a package, then Julio can get them from me...........


This sounds like a reasonable way to do it.


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> oh.....good call, Edward......clickity clack.


Let the shunning commence... hmm on second thought, it be more appropriate to do a exocommunication from the frog community.. modified from the old catholic tradition which was introduced around the 9th century... 

quote "We separate him, together with his accomplices and abettors, from the precious group of the frog and from the society of all Froggers; we exclude him from our meets, the reptiles shows, and on earth; we declare him excommunicate and anathema; we judge him damned, with the Devil and his angels and all the reprobate, to eternal fire until he shall recover himself from the toils of the devil and return to amendment and to penitence."endquote 

After reciting this the froggers would respond "So be it!" The chief frogger would ring a bell to evoke a death toll, close Poison Frogs: Biology, Species & Captive Husbandryto symbolize the excommunicant's separation from the community, and snuff out a candle or candles, knocking them to the floor to represent the target's frog keeing being extinguished and removed from the light of frogs....


----------



## frogface

Philsuma said:


> Here's another thought.....no offense Chris, but who here would want to piss Julio off in any way shape or form?
> 
> Not I.


I think it's too late.


----------



## ChrisK

Philsuma said:


> Here's another thought.....no offense Chris, but who here would want to piss Julio off in any way shape or form?
> 
> Not I.


How would getting the frogs back piss Julio off?


----------



## SMenigoz

frogface said:


> This sounds like a reasonable way to do it.


Reasonable was two weeks (and 32 pages) ago...now we're up to pitiful.


----------



## fleshfrombone

I really would say I want to see proof but dude it's there. You know, you're done in this hobby man. We need to be able to trust each other and that breach of trust is way out of line. At this point if I played devils advocate, which is what I prefer, I would look like a horses ass along with you.


----------



## Philsuma

ChrisK said:


> How would getting the frogs back piss Julio off?


I meant, pissing Julio off in the first place.

I meant the other Chris....Chris...

Julio is not one of the _smaller_ DB members, is all......


----------



## rcteem

DCreptiles said:


> from what i can read and understand that someone offered to give the frogs back and has not done so? then why would someone offer them up? makes no sense?
> 
> so now the guy is not giving the frogs back? thats bs... has chris offered up his mailing address to be returned? no they cornered the person by asking him or her to drop them off. maybe the guy is afraid? did the guy offer to mail them? did he offer any type of terms? no info was given about this transaction at all. this sounds more like a kangaroo court.


Really, you dont know anything???


----------



## DCreptiles

again i will ask for proof to be pm or email directly to me.


but aside from that lets look at the numbers here and see if we can make 2 plus 2 be 4 ok?

when a crime takes place you need motive.. does anyone here have a motive?
i have proof that i have owned these frogs in the past. did not like them. GAVE THEM AWAY. so there goes that. if i wanted these frogs i carry more then enough cash to purchase them. then did i mention that some of my good friends here on the board do own a few? and could of easily got mine back.
so please tell me where is the motive?

i have been in the hobby for a few years now and i have done many transactions with many people all in which were clean. i have laid money out for other DB memebers at meets and shows. i have had people in the hobby lay out my end on group buys from marcus and paid them back at the agreed time.

i have middle maned many transactions for people had took frogs at a show and held them for pick up at my home to make transactions easier for many other people.

besides scotts last meet i have attended 2 times before with no issues...

i have attended andys meet no issues.. attended herper99 meet no issues...

mind you at andys meet damian had multiple pairs of blue jeans for sale which is what started that very nasty smuggling episode.

so again where is the track record? where is the motive?

i have opened my home to many froggers here on dendroboard and left my place open for people to come from far and spend the night.

MATT watched your car and drove your friends to the path station to save you guys money and a headache of driving into the city.. you offered me cash to compensate for my time. did i take the money? was anything missing from the car?

i have given frogs away for free for adoption to a good home. pa walt can agree.

i did a trade with rich frye's friend Daryl for some tri colors and the trade went by smooth.

i sell my cultures on the board and offer 100% gaurentee on them.

i give new commers what i call the newb package which is clippings and suppliments bag of leaf litter some FF media and a water conditioner for FREE just to help them get started...

someone mentioned this might be a race issue.. but idk.. lets see.. black jungle was ripped off at a show and had NO CLUE who it was. they got a email from someone saying that i told them personally i stole frogs from their booth.... i was with friends at the show the entire time that came on the board and vouched for me.. but wait it gets better... now at their BBQ plants were stolen from their greenhouse.. i didnt attend the BBQ... so... NO ONE was accused..

this is just people who dislike me starting a movement and then people looking at this 1 sided story will jump on it. i got a few friends here on dendroboard itching to get on here and speak up to vouch for the kind of person i am. but i ask.. will that prove anything? i doubt it. 

i am willing to stand up and provide any info i need to prove not guilty. my first reaction was i just really didnt care what anyone thinks. this is truely just a hobby for us all. but my friends feel that justice needs to be served. i told them justice is only found in the dictionary. 

i wanted to just let you guys do what ever it is you DB wolves do. but i was told to get on here and say my end.

i work in loss prevention my backround is criminal justice i am currently awaiting the process to be a cop in my area.
working in loss prevention we arent allowed to apprehend anyone with out the 5 steps which are.

1 see the person enter the store or the department ( to know what they came with and what is theirs).
2 see the person select the merchandise off the rack or shelf ( so we know its our merchandise )
3 watch them conceal the merchandise ( so when we stop them we can quickly recover the merchandise before they can play games or try and run )
4 have uninterrupted surveillance of the shoplifter ( so that if they ditch the merchandise you dont look like a ass at the door. )
5 they must past the last point of purchase. ( this proves intent. even though someone may come into the store with a back pack or put merchandise in their pocket doesnt mean they were going to steal although we all know they were we cant prove it until they hit the doors. )

this is what we need to prosecute a shiplifter/theif.

i have caught shoplifters on camera stuffing merchandise into bags and walking to the exit and me stopping them and the cops still argued not to take them.

I am a person of integrity and a lot of what is being said on here is very close to the fence of slander. and what was said on other forums is dead on to defamation and slander of character. with that being said.

I WANTED THESE FROGS RETURNED WHEN THESE FROGS ARE RETURNED I HOPE THIS WILL PROVE INNOCENCE!!! because truth be told if who ever did take them is watching all of this he is getting away with it! so i urg him to return them to whoever he can. i will personally pay out of pocket for them to be sent mailed or driven to their rightful owner TO SPITE the very nasty things he has said about me..

oh and 1 thing.. you said on the other forum dont let you find out i do this again? although i didnt do this.. please tell me what would you honestly do to me? i am not a aggressive person unless pushed. so please by all means.. PUSH.


----------



## Philsuma

Hottest DB thread Evah....


----------



## frogface

They traced the IP. You have any roommates you want to offer up as the perp?


----------



## Philsuma

You know a lot about retail theft Derek, I'll give ya that.

Now teach us how a criminal investigation works.

Subpoenas for emails, text messages, IP Addresses?

Witness statements? Depositions?

What is admissable in court?

Home work assignment: Can a person be convicted of murder when there is NO BODY found?


----------



## yours

yours said:


> *a quarter to be placed into the jukebox*
> 
> "Jingle Bells
> Robin Smells
> Batman Laid an Egg..."
> 
> Erm, NO! *kicks that antique of a music player*
> 
> "Dashing through the snow
> In a one horse open sleigh
> Over the fields we go
> LAUGHING all the way..."
> 
> Well, you can't blame a guy for trying, right?? 'Tis the Season!! Hehe
> 
> *looks around for streamers....balloons....confetti even(?), to turn those FROWNS, up-side DOWN's!*
> 
> 
> 
> Alex


Well.....I....feel extremely stupid....naive....WTF-slapp'ed-across-the-face, heart wrenchingly beyond belief at the......'possible'(pc huh?) identity..................and really really horrible for making this post in this thread above.

Y'see, I was under the impression---like everyone else---at the frogs were being returned.....and people were getting a lil' dramatically angry...............so thought the situation required some lightheartedness, what w/ the holidays and all....*points to post above*


But now............the reality that many of you have experienced(most notably rcteem, Julio, ScottM....Ray...Melas)......just really hit home. Now. My eyes are open. I'm awake. And it....doesn't......in anyway feel good. 

I.....met this person for the first and only time at MARS/IAD. I was happy because of that. I....feel violated as well(and I wasn't even at this month's meeting)...

Is this a bad dream? 

*need...to...vent**to get it out*

I was...sorta hoping I wouldn't "know" this person, to go along with the "outta sight, outta mind" mentality.......or so that it wouldn't connect on a 'personal' level..................I really didn't "know" the person, but I spoke to him through this platform, and like I said I "met" him.............once. 

*sp-speechless-ness?*

I really don't have much to offer myself(frogs, money, etc), but if there is some sort of fundraiser type deal, I'd like to.....at least....donate a little to help support the loss......

This is NOT a good way into the maw of the holiday season by any stretch of the imagination.......................this sorta drama belongs on television or in the movies....but then, that would anticipate POISON DART FROGS crossing over into a mainstream medium, hmm??

I just....do not like....when ugly stuff like this happens.....no, no, no......not in MY would-be-ideological mind.......

Sorry again for the losses as a result of this situation.....if there's anything I can humbly do, please let me know......(((((((((((



Sincerely,


Alex


----------



## DCreptiles

your right phil at least we can agree on something..

first during my time there was the Cross breeding situation that was interesting.

then there was black jungles bri bri's

then there was smuggling the blue jeans.

now the hottest thread ever! THIS!

so what ever happen to the use to be mod that ripped off people for thousands of $$$$$ is he in jail? maybe im just stiring the pot. but can we get a pole up to see what is the biggest scandal to ever hit dendroboard?


----------



## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> again i will ask for proof to be pm or email directly to me.
> 
> 
> but aside from that lets look at the numbers here and see if we can make 2 plus 2 be 4 ok?
> 
> when a crime takes place you need motive.. does anyone here have a motive?
> i have proof that i have owned these frogs in the past. did not like them. GAVE THEM AWAY. so there goes that. if i wanted these frogs i carry more then enough cash to purchase them. then did i mention that some of my good friends here on the board do own a few? and could of easily got mine back.
> so please tell me where is the motive?
> 
> i have been in the hobby for a few years now and i have done many transactions with many people all in which were clean. i have laid money out for other DB memebers at meets and shows. i have had people in the hobby lay out my end on group buys from marcus and paid them back at the agreed time.
> 
> i have middle maned many transactions for people had took frogs at a show and held them for pick up at my home to make transactions easier for many other people.
> 
> besides scotts last meet i have attended 2 times before with no issues...
> 
> i have attended andys meet no issues.. attended herper99 meet no issues...
> 
> mind you at andys meet damian had multiple pairs of blue jeans for sale which is what started that very nasty smuggling episode.
> 
> so again where is the track record? where is the motive?
> 
> i have opened my home to many froggers here on dendroboard and left my place open for people to come from far and spend the night.
> 
> MATT watched your car and drove your friends to the path station to save you guys money and a headache of driving into the city.. you offered me cash to compensate for my time. did i take the money? was anything missing from the car?
> 
> i have given frogs away for free for adoption to a good home. pa walt can agree.
> 
> i did a trade with rich frye's friend Daryl for some tri colors and the trade went by smooth.
> 
> i sell my cultures on the board and offer 100% gaurentee on them.
> 
> i give new commers what i call the newb package which is clippings and suppliments bag of leaf litter some FF media and a water conditioner for FREE just to help them get started...
> 
> someone mentioned this might be a race issue.. but idk.. lets see.. black jungle was ripped off at a show and had NO CLUE who it was. they got a email from someone saying that i told them personally i stole frogs from their booth.... i was with friends at the show the entire time that came on the board and vouched for me.. but wait it gets better... now at their BBQ plants were stolen from their greenhouse.. i didnt attend the BBQ... so... NO ONE was accused..
> 
> this is just people who dislike me starting a movement and then people looking at this 1 sided story will jump on it. i got a few friends here on dendroboard itching to get on here and speak up to vouch for the kind of person i am. but i ask.. will that prove anything? i doubt it.
> 
> i am willing to stand up and provide any info i need to prove not guilty. my first reaction was i just really didnt care what anyone thinks. this is truely just a hobby for us all. but my friends feel that justice needs to be served. i told them justice is only found in the dictionary.
> 
> i wanted to just let you guys do what ever it is you DB wolves do. but i was told to get on here and say my end.
> 
> i work in loss prevention my backround is criminal justice i am currently awaiting the process to be a cop in my area.
> working in loss prevention we arent allowed to apprehend anyone with out the 5 steps which are.
> 
> 1 see the person enter the store or the department ( to know what they came with and what is theirs).
> 2 see the person select the merchandise off the rack or shelf ( so we know its our merchandise )
> 3 watch them conceal the merchandise ( so when we stop them we can quickly recover the merchandise before they can play games or try and run )
> 4 have uninterrupted surveillance of the shoplifter ( so that if they ditch the merchandise you dont look like a ass at the door. )
> 5 they must past the last point of purchase. ( this proves intent. even though someone may come into the store with a back pack or put merchandise in their pocket doesnt mean they were going to steal although we all know they were we cant prove it until they hit the doors. )
> 
> this is what we need to prosecute a shiplifter/theif.
> 
> i have caught shoplifters on camera stuffing merchandise into bags and walking to the exit and me stopping them and the cops still argued not to take them.
> 
> I am a person of integrity and a lot of what is being said on here is very close to the fence of slander. and what was said on other forums is dead on to defamation and slander of character. with that being said.
> 
> I WANTED THESE FROGS RETURNED WHEN THESE FROGS ARE RETURNED I HOPE THIS WILL PROVE INNOCENCE!!! because truth be told if who ever did take them is watching all of this he is getting away with it! so i urg him to return them to whoever he can. i will personally pay out of pocket for them to be sent mailed or driven to their rightful owner TO SPITE the very nasty things he has said about me..
> 
> oh and 1 thing.. you said on the other forum dont let you find out i do this again? although i didnt do this.. please tell me what would you honestly do to me? i am not a aggressive person unless pushed. so please by all means.. PUSH.


 
Really dude? Come on... I'm going to have to dig out the dry suit and deep diving helmut...


----------



## jubjub47

Philsuma said:


> Hottest DB thread Evah....


We've had multiple "dudes" from Ed so far. I think that says it all. Lol


----------



## Ed

jubjub47 said:


> We've had multiple "dudes" from Ed so far. I think that says it all. Lol


Its a fall back as I can't say what I really would like to say without it being edited.. 

Ed


----------



## JeremyHuff

SMenigoz said:


> I'll extend the offer to have you drop off the frogs at my place too...you know the location. I'l help you up the stairs on the way out...


You would let him into your frog room?


----------



## SMenigoz

JeremyHuff said:


> You would let him into your frog room?


...and "aid" in his exit.


----------



## AaronAcker

jubjub47 said:


> We've had multiple "dudes" from Ed so far. I think that says it all. Lol


I was thinking the exact same thing. Even my girlfriend who normally zones out while on the pc is glued to this thread. Everyone here wants the same result. Give him his frogs back. As said you've had 30 some pages of offers to help you do the right thing. 

I will offer my help in any way *as so many have. If there is a raffle or something of the sort I will donate items to be given away, and buy tickets myself. Chris or Julio just pm me if there is anything we can do.


----------



## rcteem

DCreptiles said:


> your right phil at least we can agree on something..
> 
> first during my time there was the Cross breeding situation that was interesting.
> 
> then there was black jungles bri bri's
> 
> then there was smuggling the blue jeans.
> 
> now the hottest thread ever! THIS!
> 
> so what ever happen to the use to be mod that ripped off people for thousands of $$$$$ is he in jail? maybe im just stiring the pot. but can we get a pole up to see what is the biggest scandal to ever hit dendroboard?


Derek, please stop...your being to RUFF...lol. Man this thief has some balls. I gave the thief every chance and even have the IP Address that the guy who was going to return the frogs and it just so happens its the same one you use on here...hmm interesting!!!!! If its not you, be careful who your friends are cause they are framing you.


----------



## sbreland

Man, I'm late to the party.... looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue.

Derek,
I'd quote you but don't want to kill half a page of space. IF you are innocent (which you claim but pretty much everyone here refutes), how do you explain the IP address evidence they are talking about? I am not a computer expert but by damn man... WoW doesn't cause duplicate IPs or anything like that. I don't know man... eveyone said they wouldn't out you here but since you outed yourself and brought it up I guess it's fair game... what proof do you have that you didn't do it??? You said you have proof that you are not guilty... what is it???


----------



## rcteem

Would everyone who pmd me stories of bad transactions with this thief please post it here and make it public!!!!


----------



## sbreland

DCreptiles said:


> your right phil at least we can agree on something..
> 
> first during my time there was the Cross breeding situation that was interesting.
> 
> then there was black jungles bri bri's
> 
> then there was smuggling the blue jeans.
> 
> now the hottest thread ever! THIS!
> 
> so what ever happen to the use to be mod that ripped off people for thousands of $$$$$ is he in jail? maybe im just stiring the pot. but can we get a pole up to see what is the biggest scandal to ever hit dendroboard?


Do you mean pole or poll? A pole is something people get beaten with or strung up from when they are caught lying...


----------



## DCreptiles

Philsuma said:


> You know a lot about retail theft Derek, I'll give ya that.
> 
> Now teach us how a criminal investigation works.
> 
> Subpoenas for emails, text messages, IP Addresses?
> 
> Witness statements? Depositions?
> 
> What is admissable in court?
> 
> Home work assignment: Can a person be convicted of murder when there is NO BODY found?


sure Phil considering my dagree is cirminal justice. 

90% of the time internet proof is not admissable in court unless the info is found by a detective him self. this proof can not be given to him. especially if your proof is the i.p matched but now it doesnt. sounds more like a goose chase.

if there was a witness that seen me or someone physically taking the frogs. then this would not have drawn out as long as it has. especially if ray told me that he didnt think it was me until recently. that will shoot down any witness testimony since he was one of the people that stayed behind at the meet discussing this. so if there was a witness cops would have been called and the theif would of been found before reaching home and the frogs would of been found on their person and it be a open and shut case.

and as for emails those are barely enough to get you an order of protection from someone harassing you considering even though you have a i.p address which links lots of your info. you CANT PROVE who was the actual person sending those messages even if it came from their home. 

now text messaging is a great thing its majorly on the fence. text messaging is pretty incriminating yes! because you own the phone. but if the phone is reported stolen and it proves to be true. ( lets say its not true and you threw it in the trash ) then you cant be held liable for text messages again there is no way to prove you sent them and not someone else using your phone.

remember conviction needs beyond reasonable doubt. which isnt a reasonable doubt for you reasonable doubt for a jury. but before it even going that far you need proof to even have them make a arrest. and before they can be charged you need enough proof to have the district attorney's office feel comfortable with charging the suspect and having some what of a case. then they will offer a plea bargin which in most cases like this they offer restitution which is the value of the frogs plus court fee's. which would obviously be turn down. which then the district attorney's office will then weigh the evidence and say lets waste lots of money to have a trial for these not so legal frogs which by the way have paper work i am guessing?. then they will go to court and the prosecution will have a chance to present their evidence and then the defense will do their best to disprove this by saying. can you prove this person here in front of you stole the frogs? can you tell us how you know he physically wrote those emails? yes yes we know this i.p thing. is this i.p address consistant with his or does it change? can you prove why it changed? again can you prove he was the exact person?

i hope this helps you phil in your investigation to put me away for something i didnt do.

btw just wondering by show of hands. if they have me arrested for this and its prove in court that i didnt do it.. will i get a big hug and a im sorry?


----------



## sbreland

DCreptiles said:


> sure Phil considering my dagree is cirminal justice.


Out of curiousity... did your "dagree" require an English 101 class or at least a 2nd grade spelling class or was that too "ruff"? 

Sorry, couldn't resist.


----------



## DCreptiles

sorry i am using my cell phone to do most of the responding so i will have tons of typos especially when it trys to guess what your saying. but all i ask is that before people pass judgment they just see how this plays out.


----------



## Philsuma

DCreptiles said:


> btw just wondering by show of hands. if they have me arrested for this and its prove in court that i didnt do it.. will i get a big hug and a im sorry?


No Derek. No one thinks you did this. No one mentioned your name in connection to this. There is probably no crime here at all, when it all comes down to it -for the record, I still think it's all a big misunderstanding.

and finally,

Everything will be fine.....just fine. I'm sure we will all forget this in due time.......


----------



## sbreland

DCreptiles said:


> now text messaging is a great thing its majorly on the fence. text messaging is pretty incriminating yes! because you own the phone. but if the phone is reported stolen and it proves to be true. ( lets say its not true and you threw it in the trash ) then you cant be held liable for text messages again there is no way to prove you sent them and not someone else using your phone.


Wait... let me see if I'm following this correctly... so the theif (that you don't know) was at the SAME meeting as you were AND also stole your phone and started sending text messages to other DB members to frame you?? That crafty bastard... this guy is definitely one to keep an eye out for. I hope he hasn't hacked my email and rerouted my IP through the muffler bearings on my laptop to log into WoW with MY IP and place false admissions of his guilt!!! F*ck... I need to change my password...


----------



## NathanB

whos derek?


----------



## epiphytes etc.

this makes me really sad...


----------



## fleshfrombone

Alright you know what, proof keeps being mentioned by both sides. Post it here or elsewhere and prove it. Time to put up or shut up.


----------



## JeremyHuff

DCreptiles said:


> one should not haggle with out cash in hand.


True, but you could always steal....


----------



## Philsuma

DCreptiles said:


> if there was a witness that seen me or someone physically taking the frogs. then this would not have drawn out as long as it has. especially if ray told me that he didnt think it was me until recently. that will shoot down any witness testimony since he was one of the people that stayed behind at the meet discussing this. so if there was a witness cops would have been called and the theif would of been found before reaching home and the frogs would of been found on their person and it be a open and shut case.
> 
> and as for emails those are barely enough to get you an order of protection from someone harassing you considering even though you have a i.p address which links lots of your info. you CANT PROVE who was the actual person sending those messages even if it came from their home.
> 
> now text messaging is a great thing its majorly on the fence. text messaging is pretty incriminating yes! because you own the phone. but if the phone is reported stolen and it proves to be true. ( lets say its not true and you threw it in the trash ) then you cant be held liable for text messages again there is no way to prove you sent them and not someone else using your phone.
> 
> remember conviction needs beyond reasonable doubt. which isnt a reasonable doubt for you reasonable doubt for a jury. but before it even going that far you need proof to even have them make a arrest. and before they can be charged you need enough proof to have the district attorney's office feel comfortable with charging the suspect and having some what of a case. then they will offer a plea bargin which in most cases like this they offer restitution which is the value of the frogs plus court fee's. which would obviously be turn down. which then the district attorney's office will then weigh the evidence and say lets waste lots of money to have a trial for these not so legal frogs which by the way have paper work i am guessing?. then they will go to court and the prosecution will have a chance to present their evidence and then the defense will do their best to disprove this by saying. can you prove this person here in front of you stole the frogs? can you tell us how you know he physically wrote those emails? yes yes we know this i.p thing. is this i.p address consistant with his or does it change? can you prove why it changed? again can you prove he was the exact person?


Oh this is a priceless synopsis of the investigation and judical processes...I have absolutely nothing to add to it ,it's just that dead on !.....although I may have to cut / paste and frame it for people to believe it was actually written.


----------



## sbreland

DCreptiles said:


> sorry i am using my cell phone to do most of the responding so i will have tons of typos especially when it trys to guess what your saying. but all i ask is that before people pass judgment they just see how this plays out.


Would this cell phone happen to be a blackberry?????


----------



## DCreptiles

another comment from the guy who THINKS he knows everything. we all know i dont like you and you dont like me. so of course you jump on this topic like a pig on $h*t your by far my biggest fan of them all Phil. that is no secret there. but then again what else do i expect from a 20,19,18,17,16,15,14..... year man like your self.  The truth is your my idol and i admire your opinion. 

FYI this is The holidays as much as i would love to put on my boxing gloves and sit here and fight off the DB wolves i just dont have the time. if this was after the holidays this would be that much more entertaining.


----------



## DCreptiles

sbreland said:


> Would this cell phone happen to be a blackberry?????


no i own a Tmobile side kick model 2008 cell phone


----------



## sbreland

Oh boy... how I've missed Dendroboard and the love of the community in my absence, LOL! Can we just get it over and have someone call me an asshole already so I can feel like I'm officially back?!?


----------



## epiphytes etc.

DCreptiles said:


> another comment from the guy who THINKS he knows everything. we all know i dont like you and you dont like me. so of course you jump on this topic like a pig on $h*t your by far my biggest fan of them all Phil. that is no secret there. but then again what else do i expect from a 20,19,18,17,16,15,14..... year man like your self.  The truth is your my idol and i admire your opinion.
> 
> FYI this is The holidays as much as i would love to put on my boxing gloves and sit here and fight off the DB wolves i just dont have the time. if this was after the holidays this would be that much more entertaining.


entertaining?... is that what this is to you? holy s**t, you really don't get it do you?


----------



## WendySHall

This is my first post to this thread although I have been following it all along.

First, let me say that this is a very sad thing that has happened. I have been reading this board for many, many months and started realizing that it was a very close-knit community and was starting to "know" some of the members by the way they posted. Individual personalities were starting to shine through. There are many people on here I "like" without ever having written or spoke with them. I liked that. Now, so many people have had their trust in even each other shattered by the act of one individual. As I said...it's very sad and I hope this community doesn't fall apart. I hope everyone remembers those who banned together trying to help all of those affected.

On another note...

I searched all of his posts on this thread a little while ago. At the time, there were 11 posts which all seemed to expound upon gathering information, being fair and not pointing fingers, finding the culprit, and above all maintaining trust in the community. He's even been talking about the suspect in the third person. If what has been alleged IS true (and the ISP evidence is a hard one to beat!), then that is even sadder (and maybe a little crazy).

Here's a link to the posts if anyone cares to look:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1166081


----------



## epiphytes etc.

DCreptiles said:


> another comment from the guy who THINKS he knows everything. we all know i dont like you and you dont like me. so of course you jump on this topic like a pig on $h*t your by far my biggest fan of them all Phil. that is no secret there. but then again what else do i expect from a 20,19,18,17,16,15,14..... year man like your self.  The truth is your my idol and i admire your opinion.
> 
> FYI this is The holidays as much as i would love to put on my boxing gloves and sit here and fight off the DB wolves i just dont have the time. if this was after the holidays this would be that much more entertaining.


entertaining?.. is that what this is to you? holy s**t, you really don't get it, do you?


----------



## JoshK

sbreland said:


> Oh boy... how I've missed Dendroboard and the love of the community in my absence, LOL! Can we just get it over and have someone call me an asshole already so I can feel like I'm officially back?!?


Asshole



DCreptiles said:


> another comment from the guy who THINKS he knows everything. we all know i dont like you and you dont like me. so of course you jump on this topic like a pig on $h*t your by far my biggest fan of them all Phil. that is no secret there. but then again what else do i expect from a 20,19,18,17,16,15,14..... year man like your self.  The truth is your my idol and i admire your opinion.
> 
> FYI this is The holidays as much as i would love to put on my boxing gloves and sit here and fight off the DB wolves i just dont have the time. if this was after the holidays this would be that much more entertaining.


If only this person has stolen the frogs after the holidays, it would so much more convenient. Next time this person steals we'll all hope it is after the holidays so that you enjoy it more.


----------



## DCreptiles

epiphytes etc. said:


> entertaining?... is that what this is to you? holy s**t, you really don't get it do you?



im being falsely accused. what else would i consider this? if this was truly a issue this would of been handled like adults with a phone call and a convo about it all. not posting in open forum with name calling and chest bumping. i have nothing against anyone here..... well except... well anyway again i have had tons of clean transactions so where is the proof please refer to my previous post!


----------



## Philsuma

DCreptiles said:


> your by far my biggest fan of them all Phil.


au contraire...I think you are giving me too much credit, you have a *lot* of fans now. I'm sure some are bigger than me.


----------



## Chris Miller

DCreptiles said:


> especially if your proof is the i.p matched but now it doesnt. sounds more like a goose chase.


A good reason to start posting again then, reset the router to get a new IP, cover your tracks.

don't worry about ever returning my pm's regarding springs, I figure you really are working with them. Glad I didn't pay pal you. Thanks for stalling.


----------



## DCreptiles

well im off to bed you kiddies play nice.

good night all.


----------



## Philsuma

I'm still awake folks...

I know we really don't have much to go on but let's keep at this until we uncover who the culprit is !


----------



## rcteem

Sounds like we have two cases Phil... the first one someone stole my frogs and the second one is that someone broke into dereks house and framed him using his computer and cell...interesting!!!!


----------



## stemcellular

fleshfrombone said:


> Alright you know what, proof keeps being mentioned by both sides. Post it here or elsewhere and prove it. Time to put up or shut up.[/QUOTE
> 
> Here goes. To add to what Melas previously noted, I received a number of emails from an account. When the respondent failed to comply with the agreed upon terms, Melas, who was by this time also party to correspondence with the individual in question, used his skills to obtain the originating IP address for the email, as well as for a later (and different) account used by the individual. Melas then told me how to check the IP from my initial emails with the individual. We conferred and they were the same. Still having not heard back from the individual about the transfer, I decided to search the DB users for the IP. The hit that came back was for the person noted above. I was, needless to say, highly disappointed and upset since I had previously convinced myself that this was not the case.
> 
> To further support our hypothesis, Melas contrasted specific terminology used by both parties - in the emails to us and in DB posts. In both cases, the term "ruff" was used in place of "rough." Again, the hits for "ruff" matched the DB name for the person that matched the IP address of the email correspondent that admitted stealing the frogs.
> 
> There are more circumstantial examples that I will not get into here in detail but I'll leave you with this....While I cannot definitively claim that the person in question took the frogs, all evidence suggests that he knows who did or has been involved in some way. That said, I would be more than happy to be proven wrong, though at this point, I believe that is highly unlikely.


----------



## sbreland

JoshK said:


> Asshole


THANK GOD!! I was starting to feel like I was in a foreign land


----------



## Dendro Dave

Man I was really hoping it would be some no name dude I never heard of....sadly no. Get the cops involved, they may even get the frogs back for you...go through fish and wild life though like Ed said so you can prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. Its worth a shot at least. The ISP's should have logs of the IP and internet traffic and probably email traffic also (maybe even actual text of the emails), as will the cellular companies...they track that stuff back to gather evidence on pedophiles all the time. And if there really is a witness...then well he is pretty screwed probably. IP addresses can change unless you have a static IP set up but the odds that another DB member who was at the meet would end up with the same IP as the thief are astronomical.

Get fish and wild life involved, and the local cops in all relevant states/cities. Maybe we can start a DB prosecution fund to help with court/lawyer fees if necessary. And hey if it goes well you may even get the frogs back alive...If he kills them add cruelty to animals charge onto everything 

PRESS CHARGES!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## sbreland

Sadly I think it's time to do something productive like go study cranial nerves and head/neck anatomy. I'm SOOOOOO glad I was able to make the party, even if it was late. Maybe I'll come back sometime to check in and see how this turned out. All I can say is that I hope the frogs end up back with their rightful owner.


----------



## epiphytes etc.

DCreptiles said:


> well im off to bed you kiddies play nice.
> 
> good night all.


nice to know you won't lose any sleep...


----------



## GeorgiaB

Im really sorry to see this turn out so unfortunately. I would hope that the frogs are unharmed and may yet turn up. This is now about doing the right thing because it is right, so just return the frogs. I hope that this doesnt harm the community too much because there are still a lot of good people involved. I would love to meet many of the members and i really like the people here. 

To all of the victims, I am very sorry this has happened. Please dont let this ruin your holidays.

Georgia


----------



## Marty71

I don't know. If it was me I'd be rallying the troops. Friends that I went to the meeting with, people that saw me leave, people that could vouch for my character etc. Think I'd be spending more time doing that then trying to discredit what seems like pretty iron clad evidence. Good or bad, this isn't a court of law, and you are not given the benefit of the doubt unless you earn it. So far as an impartial observer, you haven't done anything to earn it. 

You may want to reconsider some of the offers you have been given, including dropping frogs off with a doorman. I can't see how you have a future here with your less than compelling argument to this point.


----------



## Philsuma

Dendro Dave said:


> Maybe we can start a DB prosecution fund to help with court/lawyer fees if necessary.


Didn't think of a civil suit yet.....that's a bonzer idea, mate.

I have 3 friends here in Ft Lauderdale who are Attorneys that file federal suits in lots of other states. I'll confer with them on some possibilities.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Philsuma said:


> Didn't think of a civil suit yet.....that's a bonzer idea, mate.
> 
> I have 3 friends here in Ft Lauderdale who are Attorneys that file federal suits in lots of other states. I'll confer with them on some possibilities.


Ya there doesn't just have to be a criminal trial, you can sue them in civil court also  I say do both, press charges, and sue...2 words, "Mental anguish"  ...2 more, "cha, ching" ;P A civil case may be easier to win also, because I don't think there is the same burden of proof exactly as there is in a criminal case. Really in a situation like this you just have to offer up some decent evidence and hope the jury sides with you and I think in this case there is enough to go on that they probably would. Then they award damages to you


----------



## rcteem

Philsuma said:


> Didn't think of a civil suit yet.....that's a bonzer idea, mate.
> 
> I have 3 friends here in Ft Lauderdale who are Attorneys that file federal suits in lots of other states. I'll confer with them on some possibilities.


If I have the facts wrong please correct them...both Ray and Matt have post some facts as to why the finger is being pointed. Would love to hear the thiefs proof as to why he is not guilty. 

**Sorry, didnt mean to quote Phil


----------



## Philsuma

Some parting thoughts before I rack out....

Derek is attempting to spin this into a "vs" Phil type of thing. A Classic deflection. If there is anyone here that can say that I have been manipulating anything, inserting Dereks name into anything or otherwise even calling or emailing Matt or Ray......_anytime_......let them post here.

There has been *no* involvment by me, in this investigation as of yet. I am confident that anyone reading this entire thread is intelligent and good hearted enough to see what they need to to draw their own conclusions.

Don't be sucked into being fooled that I am "out to get anyone" here, as it just ain't so.

But

What I _do_ have time for, is to stick up for people that are hurt or wronged. The handful of LEO's and like services found amongst this membership can testify to that fact. You can't "turn off" or ignore people that need help. Its hardwiring.


----------



## rcteem

Derek, sorry if we are pointing the finger at you and dont have enough evidence towards you as you believe...if this is the case please proof us wrong. Would you be willing to take a poly test to put this behind us all and move on to find the real criminal???


----------



## Tony

sbreland said:


> THANK GOD!! I was starting to feel like I was in a foreign land


There is no god.













Is it really DB without someone starting a holy war? Welcome home.


----------



## thedude

WHAT??? your telling me all these years ive been buying frogs i could have just stolen them and it would have just cost me some friends and any respect the hobby had for me?? DAMN, all the wasted money  

sorry for your loss chris. alteast you were able to expose a criminal out of it. and its also nice knowing that there are people willing to spend so much time and energy to keep it a great hobby! thanks to all who helped.


----------



## pl259

Philsuma said:


> Some parting thoughts before I rack out....
> 
> Derek is attempting to spin this into a "vs" Phil type of thing. A Classic deflection. If there is anyone here that can say that I have been manipulating anything, inserting Dereks name into anything or otherwise even calling or emailing Matt or Ray......_anytime_......let them post here.
> 
> There has been *no* involvment by me, in this investigation as of yet. I am confident that anyone reading this entire thread is intelligent and good hearted enough to see what they need to to draw their own conclusions.
> 
> Don't be sucked into being fooled that I am "out to get anyone" here, as it just ain't so.
> ...


You don't have anything to worry about, IMO. The attempted deflection is obvious, as is the rest of this person's otherwise pathetic defense. A classic guilt response.


----------



## melas

Just a point here:

My ISP as well as Ray's will have copies of all of the emails and logs of all of the transactions. Nothing will need to come directly from Ray or I to provide evidence. An affidavit to the ISP's can be used by Law Enforcement to reveal the individual in possession of the indicated IP address(es) at any point in time. The logs will specify the modem used as well as the internet account holder. Those logs are kept for quite some time. Beelzebub started emailing us from a blackberry AFTER we warned Lucifer about the IP address issue . . . after that they both changed but the locations for both are still the same (within 20 miles or so) . . . 

I will work with Ray to see if I can structure an email trail that is readable. I'm hesitant to post the information on a forum as it would be easy for me to edit it. I do not want this evidence to be scrutinized for that. As said above - if this is ever needed for an actual investigation "untainted" versions can be had from the ISP's involved.

Really it comes down to this: You guys have to take what has been presented and make your own judgement. There is nothing anyone of us can give you at this point that is better than our word. Ray and I have no skin in this game. Believe me I heard who people thought it was and instantly rejected the idea. I have stood up for that person in the past against other allegations and I was going to do the same in this case. However, once we had TWO sources of identical IP addresses match our admitted culprit I knew how it went down. The personal email and db login IP's matched exactly with the individual emailing Ray and I to return the frogs. *There is no question about these facts.* What exactly that means for this individual's involvement I can't say but he was CERTAINLY involved and knows who took/has them. My guess is they have been destroyed or passed on to another person.

Oh and my only contact with Phil over this issue has been in this post . . . as traumatic as that was . . .


----------



## markpulawski

Derek even all of the little subtle things point in your direction, I was scratching my head early on when you were posting things that seemed to rationalize or defend the theifs options in returning the frogs, and then in a message regarding the return...can we do it after the holidays when I have more time, would someone in loss prevention be busy right before the holidays?
Difuse the situation drop the frogs off with Chris's doorman, once they are returned there will little left to say and this will die quickly, leaving the wound open will cause it to fester, get infected, fill with ugly yellow oozing puss, puss that wreaks of dead rotting flesh, flesh that has yellowed and bloated...oops I digress. Just shoot over with the frogs, get it done with man.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Hey Matt, it`s nice to see you posting again-even tho it has to be over this sad and unfortunate incident.
Honestly, I see no need for you to have to keep explaining yourself.
From what I`ve been reading the facts are certainly there.
I think you guys absolutely handled this the right way, showing alot of self control and taking it step by step without jumping to any conclusions.
Well done and don`t be a stranger.

Oh yeah one more thing...remind me never to **** with you guys!

John


----------



## WendySHall

markpulawski said:


> Difuse the situation drop the frogs off with Chris's doorman, once they are returned there will little left to say and this will die quickly, leaving the wound open will cause it to fester, get infected, fill with ugly yellow oozing puss, puss that wreaks of dead rotting flesh, flesh that has yellowed and bloated...oops I digress. Just shoot over with the frogs, get it done with man.


This happened 11 days ago.

Everyone wanted to give a chance at redemption with anonymity.

During these 11 days, the members involved received nothing but stalling, lies, & denial even once hard evidence was presented....a slap in the face basically.

I know I'm new & I'm all for second chances...but, IMO...the opportunity for talking and redemption should now be over. He's made clear that he will not admit guilt...will not be handing over any frogs...and IF it was someone using his phone/computer, he's not telling.


----------



## DCreptiles

markpulawski said:


> Derek even all of the little subtle things point in your direction, I was scratching my head early on when you were posting things that seemed to rationalize or defend the theifs options in returning the frogs, and then in a message regarding the return...can we do it after the holidays when I have more time, would someone in loss prevention be busy right before the holidays?
> Difuse the situation drop the frogs off with Chris's doorman, once they are returned there will little left to say and this will die quickly, leaving the wound open will cause it to fester, get infected, fill with ugly yellow oozing puss, puss that wreaks of dead rotting flesh, flesh that has yellowed and bloated...oops I digress. Just shoot over with the frogs, get it done with man.



Mark your 100% right someone in my line would be busiest before the holidays but so are many other people in many different lines of work. O have asked many times to have the proof emailed or pm to me and those request have went unanswered. So how come proof is claimed and no sent to me? Did we forget they claim I changed I.p and emailed from a blackberry. My computer is being fixed so currently I have no computer so how could I be doing anything like changing my I.p? Proof I have no computer a db member drove me to drop it off. And he happens to be a cop and he will vouch to it.
2 I don't own a blackberry phone there is no record of me owning a blackberry ever. I own a t mobile sidekick an my email is registered to a tmail account. Man people on the board can vouch for that. So again.... .. Very confused... If this was a hacker crime some sort of Internet crime this would be very good proof. What we have here is theft and we need physical evidence in which we have none.

Chris a polygraph ? If you had a witness you wouldn't need a polygraph now would you? How about we give your witness a polygraph ?

I got a question? So what ended up happening to the guy that promised to return then? Does Chris not want the frogs back? I would like to seethe emails from this guy. Again I ask I am requesting the proof so people on my end can review it.


----------



## markpulawski

So Wendy in essence your saying the puss already reaks of dead rotting bloated yellowing flesh.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

markpulawski said:


> So Wendy in essence your saying the puss already reaks of dead rotting bloated yellowing flesh.


So much for my lunch.

John


----------



## melas

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Hey Matt, it`s nice to see you posting again-even tho it has to be over this sad and unfortunate incident.
> Honestly, I see no need for you to have to keep explaining yourself.
> From what I`ve been reading the facts are certainly there.
> I think you guys absolutely handled this the right way, showing alot of self control and taking it step by step without jumping to any conclusions.
> Well done and don`t be a stranger.
> 
> Oh yeah one more thing...remind me never to fuck with you guys!
> 
> John


haha! Thanks John! I've never left . . . I log on everyday - just don't have much to say.  I've been doing lots of reading - lots of interesting threads on parasites etc lately that have been great!


----------



## rcteem

DCreptiles said:


> Mark your 100% right someone in my line would be busiest before the holidays but so are many other people in many different lines of work. O have asked many times to have the proof emailed or pm to me and those request have went unanswered. So how come proof is claimed and no sent to me? Did we forget they claim I changed I.p and emailed from a blackberry. My computer is being fixed so currently I have no computer so how could I be doing anything like changing my I.p? Proof I have no computer a db member drove me to drop it off. And he happens to be a cop and he will vouch to it.
> 2 I don't own a blackberry phone there is no record of me owning a blackberry ever. I own a t mobile sidekick an my email is registered to a tmail account. Man people on the board can vouch for that. So again.... .. Very confused... If this was a hacker crime some sort of Internet crime this would be very good proof. What we have here is theft and we need physical evidence in which we have none.
> 
> Chris a polygraph ? If you had a witness you wouldn't need a polygraph now would you? How about we give your witness a polygraph ?
> 
> I got a question? So what ended up happening to the guy that promised to return then? Does Chris not want the frogs back? I would like to seethe emails from this guy. Again I ask I am requesting the proof so people on my end can review it.



Derek,

Now this is getting old...I have a witness who saw and spoke to you when he saw you around my stuff around the time you left. Scott and someone else saw the frogs 20 min before they were reported missing at the meet. We all know who left around that time and it was only yall. The facts are posted on here except the IP Address and the emails. No I will not send those to you as those will be sent to the authorities...Where is your proof you have as to why your not guilty besides was with so and so. If you have nothing to hide why wont you take a poly test...Hell, if you pass it ill say sorry and even kiss your ass. Stop playing games and lets get this resolved cause Im tired of all this shit and have plenty of well respected people on here who have seen/ know the facts. Again sorry if they are wrong but it sure looks like the finger is pointed to one person and would love to see your facts that you claim to have posted on here for everyone to see!!!!


----------



## Adven2er

I am very saddened to hear about all this. I think the evidence is pretty clear that there is at least some level of involvement. Makes me wonder about this post. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/other-classifieds/58158-leapster-game-systems-kids.html Does your career in loss prevention give you access to some serious discounts for these items? Five - finger maybe?


----------



## JoshH

DCreptiles ~ So aside from attempting to defend yourself....maybe you would like to volunteer to help Chris get his frogs back. Maybe you can offer insight on how to get them back?

Thats really the only thing left now, right? A missing/stolen pair of somewhat uncommon frogs that happen to be an important genetic resource to the entire hobby. A pair of frogs that could add diversity to our genetic pool...bottom line is that they are next to useless if dead or hidden away for the rest of their lives. I thought animal husbandry and species survival/conservation was the foundation of the dart frog hobby; maybe I was wrong :-(


----------



## DCreptiles

No it it's a clothing store not a toy store. But I do wholesale from aug to x mass it's great but I guess being a top rated power seller with 100% positive feedback on eBay is a bad thing right? For trying to pass on the savings to my fellow froggers. 

Chris if the info is being provided to the authorities why are we even talking about this? Pass it to them wish to press charged and let them sort this out right? If found innocent will you still Kiss my ass?

If we don't take this to a higher power, which I hope you do because that will clear me. I'll take a polygraph those are always fun. Then right after be ready to pucker up.


----------



## rcteem

Ok so should we have this poly done in NY/ NJ...oh wait im mean Allentown, PA...sorry your double identity has me confused

Oh, still waiting on your facts to be shared with us all too!!!!


----------



## DCreptiles

Well Josh when trying to get something back or a admition of guilt you should make your suspect feel comfortable but at the same time let them know your in charge. Try to relate to them on their level and make excuses for them to them kind of like if they feel you understand them they will seek comfort in you. This is establishing a relationship. Then provide options depending on what you want. If it's merchandise give them options provide address times locations safety. Fr example ere are re addresses of some trusted froggers in the area you can drop off at this time ect.. Or ship to these addresses ect with instructions on how to ship.

Once up provided this you sit back and wait. When someone feels cornered they will take a easy out for sure. You would have to be stupid not to. I wish the frogs would of been returned a while ago and this wouldn't of went this far.

So who ever has contact with this person just try and work his out within their comfort zone.

If you want. To I.d the person well I don't wan to say how is a good way publicly but it works every time. Remember I build cases to take to court I know what holds and doesn't. A lot of factors come onto play sometimes the district attorney is a go getter sometimes they play it super safe. But Ny jails are packed so shop lifters and employees I catch get fines or community service and let go next day. 






JoshH said:


> DCreptiles ~ So aside from attempting to defend yourself....maybe you would like to volunteer to help Chris get his frogs back. Maybe you can offer insight on how to get them back?
> 
> Thats really the only thing left now, right? A missing/stolen pair of somewhat uncommon frogs that happen to be an important genetic resource to the entire hobby. A pair of frogs that could add diversity to our genetic pool...bottom line is that they are next to useless if dead or hidden away for the rest of their lives. I thought animal husbandry and species survival/conservation was the foundation of the dart frog hobby; maybe I was wrong :-(


----------



## rcteem

DCreptiles said:


> Well Josh when trying to get something back or a admition of guilt you should make your suspect feel comfortable but at the same time let them know your in charge. Try to relate to them on their level and make excuses for them to them kind of like if they feel you understand them they will seek comfort in you. This is establishing a relationship. Then provide options depending on what you want. If it's merchandise give them options provide address times locations safety. Fr example ere are re addresses of some trusted froggers in the area you can drop off at this time ect.. Or ship to these addresses ect with instructions on how to ship.
> 
> Once up provided this you sit back and wait. When someone feels cornered they will take a easy out for sure. You would have to be stupid not to. I wish the frogs would of been returned a while ago and this wouldn't of went this far.
> 
> So who ever has contact with this person just try and work his out within their comfort zone.
> 
> If you want. To I.d the person well I don't wan to say how is a good way publicly but it works every time. Remember I build cases to take to court I know what holds and doesn't. A lot of factors come onto play sometimes the district attorney is a go getter sometimes they play it super safe. But Ny jails are packed so shop lifters and employees I catch get fines or community service and let go next day.


We have given every possible chance possible to this thief to return them...Read the forum...We offered several trusted frogs close to him...even had Ray offer to meet him in NJ this weekend cause he lives there but first said Allentown. His wife needs the car, he refuses to take a day off as it not confient for him, like this is all an inconfience for him...lol. Even Chris K has offered his place to drop them off secretly to his doorman...how many more ways/ days does this guy need???


----------



## DCreptiles

Chris you sound Like you don't want your frogs back bing humble is not your strong suit. But you come close to the line of being angry and being disrespectful. You want me to post my proof but yet you won't give me the info against me? You are afraid you will be discredited? Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law right? So apparently I'm innocent until you can actually have me arrested and prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So I ask you are you confident? Then I urg you to proceed with this. Because if I walk free evening here who doubts me will need to apologize.





rcteem said:


> Ok so should we have this poly done in NY/ NJ...oh wait im mean Allentown, PA...sorry your double identity has me confused
> 
> Oh, still waiting on your facts to be shared with us all too!!!!


----------



## JJuchems

DCreptiles said:


> No it it's a clothing store not a toy store. But I do wholesale from aug to x mass it's great but I guess being a top rated power seller with 100% positive feedback on eBay is a bad thing right? For trying to pass on the savings to my fellow froggers.


Hmm, I bet this lady had 100% feedback too. Woman accused of selling shoplifted items on eBay | News
The consumer does not know if it was shoplifted, that is one of the biggest issues Ebay has had to face.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

This was too good to pass up-

Unbelievable Facts: Man with Largest Testicles (testes) in the World

I believe we have a new winner.

John


----------



## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> Then I urg you to proceed with this. Because if I walk free evening here who doubts me will need to apologize.


 
No, actually they won't have to apologize... 

Ed


----------



## DCreptiles

Well I have 3 vehicals so going anywhere isn't a issue. You guys keep me out if the loop rather then havin me help. Chrisk lives close by to one of my good friends whom I visit often who is also on the board so if it was me it would of been done. So I offer any help I can. Your putting more focus into trying to make me look bad an a show for the people yet little effort into getting yor frogs back. Not once has anyone involved in this on your end accept ray has attempted to contact me to talk.






rcteem said:


> We have given every possible chance possible to this thief to return them...Read the forum...We offered several trusted frogs close to him...even had Ray offer to meet him in NJ this weekend cause he lives there but first said Allentown. His wife needs the car, he refuses to take a day off as it not confient for him, like this is all an inconfience for him...lol. Even Chris K has offered his place to drop them off secretly to his doorman...how many more ways/ days does this guy need???


----------



## DCreptiles

Ed said:


> No, actually they won't have to apologize...
> 
> Ed



So even after being proved innocent in a court of lawy you don't feel a apology would be in order? Hmmm sounds Like someone was just aiming for me then huh? I'd apologize if someone was proven innocent.


----------



## Zombie Frawg

DCreptiles said:


> Chris you sound Like you don't want your frogs back bing humble is not your strong suit. But you come close to the line of being angry and being disrespectful. You want me to post my proof but yet you won't give me the info against me? You are afraid you will be discredited? Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law right? So apparently I'm innocent until you can actually have me arrested and prove guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So I ask you are you confident? Then I urg you to proceed with this. Because if I walk free evening here who doubts me will need to apologize.


Really? You are really saying that it sounds like he doesn't want his frogs back? I'm new on DB and only know a few people but even I can see he (as well as others) have tried repeatedly to get the frogs back safe and sound. Multiple options have been offered to the "thief" and yet the frogs are still MIA. And to say Chris is coming "close to the line of being angry and being disrespectful" is absurd. If I were Chris I would have crossed that line long ago. I think it speaks a lot to his character that he has been so patient. You sir, are the one being disrespectful -"bing humble is not your strong suit". Just keep instigating. Karma is a b!tch and it looks like you have a lot of nasty coming your way.


----------



## Ed

DCreptiles said:


> So even after being proved innocent in a court of lawy you don't feel a apology would be in order? Hmmm sounds Like someone was just aiming for me then huh? I'd apologize if someone was proven innocent.


Being proven innocent in a court of law doesn't always mean that the person was innocent.. look at the OJ civil trial... 

If I was one of the injured parties I would have been asking for an investigation and arrest under violations of the Lacy Act as not only would the value of the theft exceed the minumum required for a felony, it would also provide an additional fine (of hundreds of thousands of dollars), along the potential of jail time. USF&W would have jurisdiction as it would have crossed state lines... 

Ed


----------



## WendySHall

markpulawski said:


> So Wendy in essence your saying the puss already reaks of dead rotting bloated yellowing flesh.


That's a little different wording than I would use...but, in essence, yes.



DCreptiles said:


> When someone feels cornered they will take a easy out for sure. You would have to be stupid not to.


Which is why at this point I don't believe the frogs will be seen again by the rightful owners.



DCreptiles said:


> But Ny jails are packed so shop lifters and employees I catch get fines or community service and let go next day.


Which means that this is thought to be simply a "slap-on-the-wrist" crime.



rcteem said:


> We have given every possible chance possible to this thief to return them...Read the forum...We offered several trusted frogs close to him...even had Ray offer to meet him in NJ this weekend cause he lives there but first said Allentown. His wife needs the car, he refuses to take a day off as it not confient for him, like this is all an inconfience for him...lol. Even Chris K has offered his place to drop them off secretly to his doorman...how many more ways/ days does this guy need???


Doesn't need any more... nothing has changed from day 1.


----------



## dartfrogs

This brings back a lot of memories.......let's see.....yep, getting clearer now.....That's right! Our White Plains show! Yeah- we actually had someone visually ID the guy that stole our frogs and then sold them at the same show. He happened to be back at our booth and the guy pointed him out to us. Yeah.....I knew something was familiar here.


----------



## frogface

DCreptiles said:


> Well I have 3 vehicals so going anywhere isn't a issue. You guys keep me out if the loop rather then havin me help. Chrisk lives close by to one of my good friends whom I visit often who is also on the board so if it was me it would of been done. So I offer any help I can. Your putting more focus into trying to make me look bad an a show for the people yet little effort into getting yor frogs back. *Not once has anyone involved in this on your end accept ray has attempted to contact me to talk*.


If they have the wrong guy, why would you be expecting people to get in contact with you?


----------



## WendySHall

DCreptiles said:


> So even after being proved innocent in a court of lawy you don't feel a apology would be in order? Hmmm sounds Like someone was just aiming for me then huh? I'd apologize if someone was proven innocent.


I wouldn't think apologies would be in order either. It was YOUR ISP / cell that was used...if you didn't do it, you MUST have knowledge of who did. And by continuing to deny EVERYTHING & making comments which are nothing more than blatantly laughing in the faces of everyone who trusted you...I see no need for apologies.


----------



## WendySHall

Okay...I'm probably out of place voicing my opinions / thoughts here. I'm still new and it's not my place. It just irritates the crap outta me when a friend stabs a friend (or entire community) in the back. That's just not supposed to happen.


----------



## TDK

I didn't have somone walk off with my frogs but my money and my trust through one of our suppliers and a fellow Dendroboard member. I wish we had a separate area on the forum to alert other members of possible problems with some of our own.


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

Ok , the women are now pissed...now it`s getting serious.

John


----------



## TDK

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok , the women are now pissed...now it`s getting serious.
> 
> John


And I thought you were a guy!


----------



## girlwithafrogtattoo

I just wanted to say I hope things are resolved to Chris's satisfaction. 
This whole thing stinks. Hopefully it won't affect meets too much, I've never gotten to attend one, and have only met 3 people from this board.
Good luck with getting this taken care of.


----------



## jig1

Dude just give back the frogs


----------



## Enlightened Rogue

TDK said:


> And I thought you were a guy!


I am.

John


----------



## JeremyHuff

Derek, amazing how your buddies haven't defended you once on here. Especially since they have in the past with other issues.


----------



## WendySHall

TDK said:


> I didn't have somone walk off with my frogs but my money and my trust through one of our suppliers and a fellow Dendroboard member. I wish we had a separate area on the forum to alert other members of possible problems with some of our own.


Sorry for your experience. I'd like to see something like that too...let you know when to be cautious, but I (sort of) understand some of the reasons for avoiding it. I keep hearing about the BOI, but never find anything dart-related on there.



Enlightened Rogue said:


> Ok , the women are now pissed...now it`s getting serious.
> 
> John


Lol! Believe it or not, it usually takes a LOT to make me that way!


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## ChrisK

Well here's another way to get it settled whether Derek did it or not - make Derek the middle man. 

Person with the frogs drops them off to Derek (who is sworn to secrecy), Derek drops them off to me, Julio picks them up from me, that way whether Derek did it, someone he knows did it, or someone he has no idea of did it, doesn't matter, he still is the one who drops them off, situation settled.


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## stemcellular

I already told the person to contact Julio to discuss delivering the frogs, as they indicated they still wish to settle this matter.


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## sports_doc

1 mississippi
2 mississippi

3......

[thread to be closed shortly]


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