# Shipping temps? Day time high or night time low?



## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

I've been pondering this for a while and I would like to here what you guys do.
When you ship do you need to wait until the day time high is around 75 or can you ship once the night time low is between 70 and 60? I plan on using Fedex overnight and having the package held at a Fedex location near the buyer (it will arrive there around 10am). I've really been wondering why you should have to wait until the day temps are right when the shipment will hardly be affected by the high temps? Right now, here in Nebraska, the night time low over this week is an average of 50 degrees. The day time high is about 85. And the temp doesn't reach the high until around 3-5pm. The mornings are still about 5 to 10 degrees warmer than the overnight low. 
Those of you that have been shipping for a while, I'd like to here your thoughts on this


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## khoff (Feb 18, 2004)

-Hold at facility is a must (as you already stated)
-Phase 22 packs are essential and need to be "primed" for shipping (if it's hot outside put them in the fridge until they solidify; if it's cold outside warm them up until they liquify). Low quantities of phase 22 packs or panels can be purchase from a couple different sponsors.
-Proper styrofoam box (no loose seams that allow air flow). I prefer the molded styrofoam boxes used to ship meds to vets/doctors/hospitals....air tight and thick styrofoam walls. Usually you can get these for free if you ask (I get mine from my vet).

If the frogs are packed and shipped properly, you can ship with Highs in the 90's and lows down to around 40. But I can't stress enough that you have to utilize all the precautionary steps above.

Kevin


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

khoff said:


> -Phase 22 packs are essential and need to be "primed" for shipping (if it's hot outside put them in the fridge until they solidify; if it's cold outside warm them up until they liquify).


Is there ever a temp when the phase 22 pack is pointless to use because there isn't extremes of hot or cold? Obviously when it is 90 degrees (as a high) outside you want to chill the pack and when it is 50 (as a high) you want to heat it. My thinking is that if the outdoor temps reach a range where will maintain the proper temp inside the box. Why even use a pack? 



khoff said:


> If the frogs are packed and shipped properly, you can ship with Highs in the 90's and lows down to around 40.


When you say "highs in 90's and lows in the 40's" is 90 the daytime high and 40 the nighttime low? 
What I am confused about is why it is said that it is safe to ship when the HIGH is around 75. They don't say what the Nighttime LOW needs to be. When it is 75 during the day it will be at least 45 during the night. 
The likelihood of the frogs ever being affected by the daytime high is quite low. So why are we gauging "suitable" shipping temps by the daytime high?


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## mallorymccarroll (Jun 13, 2012)

Elliot I am wondering the exact same thing! I will be hoping and watching for an answer as well 

Mallory


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

If you have a daytime high of 75, and you decide to ship without any packs, can you answer the following?
1) How accurate is your weather person? Dart frogs could be in trouble not too far above 80 F, so you are not allowing much room for error if they are wrong.
2) How hot does a dark brown truck get in the sun?
3) Mistakes happen. Frogs and other shipments have been stuck in trucks all day, out in the hot sun, and even through multiple days sometimes. So to repeat number 2, How hot does a dark brown truck get in the sun, when left for an extended period of time? 
4) If your shipment takes multiple days, have you checked that the weather won't go above 75 for the next several days?
Before anyone says that this is extreme, it happens. The last time a shipping company lost a package of mine, it was missing for 10 days. They didn't even have a clue what state it might be in. Now 10 days is very extreme, granted, but this happened to me. I like to hope for the best, but plan for the worst. Fortunately, I am a big proponent of Phase 22 Packs/Panels, and of course I had packed my box using them. 10 days later, the purchaser received them in New York. All 4 Vanzolini were safe and sound. They are now breeding for their new owner.
Lost. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68064-cheap-shipping-too-good-true.html
And found. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/68461-miracle.html

Looking in the other direction, if your low is 45 and you have no protection in place, How cold does the cargo compartment of a cargo plane get at 30,000 feet? Outside the plane should be around negative 65 F.

Technology for shipping has come so far and is now so inexpensive. With so much that can go so wrong, I am glad that such a small investment can save my frogs lives, my customers peace of mind, and my checking accounts balance!
The four Vanzo's I sent to New York could have cost me $360 in frogs and the return of around $55 in shipping fees. That's a total of $415. Instead, I used 4 Phase 22 packs at a cost of $3 each. That's a whopping $12, friends! That $12 investment saved me $415! Generally, the customer either pays for the Phase packs, or pays a deposit and returns them. So either way, either the customer payed for them, or he returned them and I can use them on the next shipment.
So all in all, the extra protection costs me...nada...diddly...Jack squat...the infinate Zero...
I'm sorry, but I do not understand the mindset of cutting corners here.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> Technology for shipping has come so far and is now so inexpensive. With so much that can go so wrong, I am glad that such a small investment can save my frogs lives, my customers peace of mind, and my checking accounts balance!
> The four Vanzo's I sent to New York could have cost me $360 in frogs and the return of around $55 in shipping fees. That's a total of $415. Instead, I used 4 Phase 22 packs at a cost of $3 each. That's a whopping $12, friends! That $12 investment saved me $415! Generally, the customer either pays for the Phase packs, or pays a deposit and returns them. So either way, either the customer payed for them, or he returned them and I can use them on the next shipment.
> So all in all, the extra protection costs me...nada...diddly...Jack squat...the infinate Zero...
> I'm sorry, but I do not understand the mindset of cutting corners here.


Amen to that! 

I just wanted to add that if you use SYR the insurance is fairly cheap and most likely worth the peace of mind for your wallet. In the end... we can only do so much on our side before we hand it over to the middle man. Obviously the health and safety of my animals come first and I would prefer to not have to face this situation... but I sure wouldn't mind paying $10 to insure $400 in profit I'm getting from something I love to do. Don't most of our proceeds go towards buying more frogs anyway? (Mine sure do )


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I have to 100% agree with everthing that Doug and Tom just stated. Another thing to remember when using FedEx is it's gonna go through a 3rd city other than the city of origin and the city of destination. You have to take into account what the weather is going to be like there too. 
Good boxes, phase 22 panels, and common sense are all requirements for shipping now days.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Yes...all FedEx boxes take a pitstop in Memphis, TN (37501). Even boxes/frogs going from San Diego to Los Angeles....spend the night in Memphis.

What would a person do if the origin is hot (75) and the destination is cool (50) or vise versa in terms of using Phase 22 packs ?


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

holidayhanson said:


> Yes...all FedEx boxes take a pitstop in Memphis, TN (37501). Even boxes/frogs going from San Diego to Los Angeles....spend the night in Memphis.
> 
> What would a person do if the origin is hot (75) and the destination is cool (50) or vise versa in terms of using Phase 22 packs ?


Actually that's not true anymore. Fed Ex uses "regional hubs" when shipping express. Yesterday I shipped frogs from Chicago to NJ and they stopped in Indianapolis. A few weeks ago I shipped from Chicago to VA and they stopped in Memphis. I've shipped from Chicago to Atlanta, GA and they stopped in Indy too.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Based on expected temps vs. the solid/liquid state of the phase22 packs on arrival, and the handful of tests I conducted shipping a data-logger around the country, the packages I've sent seem to see much lower temperatures than you would intuitively suspect. I don't know if that's because the package sits on a tarmac or two overnight or if temperatures drops much lower in the hull of the cargo plane than advertised.

On more than a few occasions I have sent packages from a location of high 70's/low 80's to a location that was experiencing high 70's/low 80's and had the packs show up solid...which means it was cold enough to solidify the phase gel packs completely through a very well insulated box.

Doug is right. Phase change gel is relatively cheap and miraculous. It keeps forever so if you receive a package with packs don't throw them out, re-use them. Eventually we will all have a stack of them.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

holidayhanson said:


> What would a person do if the origin is hot (75) and the destination is cool (50) or vise versa in terms of using Phase 22 packs ?


A hot pack adds heat. A cold pack adds cold. Used together, they would fight each other, with no controls. The heat could overpower the cold and cook your frogs.
Phase 22 panels basically absorb excess heat or excess cold depending on how you prepare them. Whether charged for heat or charged for cold, they will sit comfortably at about the same temperature, without quickly exhausting themselves. When shipping in conditions similar to yours, a little worse actually, I have used one or two Phase 22 panels charged for heat and one for cool. One is slightly chilled. You basically chill it enough to harden the liquid inside. It is now prepared to absorb excess heat and is good for summer weather. One is slightly warmed to "melt" or liquify the center. It is now prepared to absorb excess cold.
Put one on one side of the box and one on the other. Unlike heat or cold packs, Phase packs cannot, by themselves, get too hot or too cold. Sure, they can exhaust themselves and cease to work, but they absolutely cannot overheat or over chill a package the way heat packs or ice/cold packs can.

What do I mean by "excess heat"? We use Phase 22 Panels. The 22 means it is designed to try to hold the temperature of your shipment at 22 degrees Celsius. That just happens to be right about 71 degrees Fahrenheit which is a pretty good temp for most of our frogs to ship at. Cryopak also offers Phase 5 and Phase -20, but those, of course, would not be suitable for our uses.
So one pack will try to absorb excess heat (anything over 71 F) and the other will try to absorb excess cool (anything below 71 F). 
Of course you want to keep in mind too, that Phase Panels are infinitely re-usable.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Actually that's not true anymore. Fed Ex uses "regional hubs" when shipping express. Yesterday I shipped frogs from Chicago to NJ and they stopped in Indianapolis. A few weeks ago I shipped from Chicago to VA and they stopped in Memphis. I've shipped from Chicago to Atlanta, GA and they stopped in Indy too.


Okay...thanks. This is good to know.


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

Okay, now you guys are making more sense! It's not so much a matter of temps as it is being prepared for whatever mistakes the shipping company can make. That shines a whole new light on why you guys use the High temp instead of the Low.


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## mallorymccarroll (Jun 13, 2012)

Agreed! Does anyone know if they are available at local stores (reptile stores, grocery, etc.) or only online? I don't mind paying extra for local.

Thanks!
Mallory


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Hey Mallory, they are a highly specialized item and therefor very doubtful you can find them online. I know you can get them from NeHerp, Josh's Frogs, and Alpha pro breeders. Here is a little more info on their use. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/69949-phase-praise.html http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html


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## mallorymccarroll (Jun 13, 2012)

that is a great thread! do you personally have a preference between the SafT packs and the Phase 22 for frogs? I read that they both are good but I have no experience with them.

Thanks!
Mallory


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

The phase 22 Gel packs are cheaper than the Saf t packs. I think Phase 22 Panels are about the same as the Saf t packs.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

I prefer the phase 22 packs over the panels because it gives you some flexibility in the packages. Now, this can be good or bad but if you secure so they don't move around during shipping you should be in good shape. Also... they're fun to play with too... Dip them in a container of icewater and you can watch them freeze in all sorts of cool patterns.

I think I do remember something a little while back where someone had one break on them during shipping... so you probably have to keep an eye on the shelf life of them and make sure the plastic doesnt start getting weak.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tom, I've had more than a few leak in shipping. Usually on returns. That's why I quit buying the packs and switched to panels.


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