# Mixing Species Help!



## New (Jun 12, 2011)

I am a beginner to the world of dart frogs, and am in the process of setting up a 12x12x18 vivarium. Ive heard a lot about the danger of un "pure" frogs and hybrids and am wondering why no one buys them/why they are a big deal? on a side note what would be a good number/type of dart frog (I dont want auratus  )


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

Nice first post....

I used the 'search' feature near the top of the page using (mixed species, hybrids,etc ) and found all of these..........enjoy the read.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/27177-hybrids-poll.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/68908-what-deal-mixing-frogs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/31709-mixing-morphs.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/38335-crossbreeds-update.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/44398-why-inter-breeding-so-bad.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/br...-accidental-hybrid-inter-breeding-update.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/56009-mixing-can-done-tons-pictures.html


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

pretty sure this is just a post meant to start another war on here but as for the viv size I would go bigger or lose the idea of how many. That vivs too small for even a pair of most adult darts to thrive in. Id forget about tincs, auratus, terribs, galacts and pretty much anything terrestrial.

Michael


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> pretty sure this is just a post meant to start another war on here but as for the viv size I would go bigger or lose the idea of how many. That vivs too small for even a pair of most adult darts to thrive in. Id forget about tincs, auratus, terribs, galacts and pretty much anything terrestrial.
> 
> Michael


Yup figured that. Posting the links to see that the thread would fade away. 
Figured the mention of tank size is another attempt at being a war starter.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Very first post a flame-thrower!


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Way to be helpful guys

New,
Because there are many morphs of the same species, People try to keep the different morphs seperate so the different morph lines remain pure, and people know what frogs they are buying and where the frogs are from. 

Hybrid frogs could be confused as one morph or another, and after a few generations, you would have a frog that does not resemble the morph line at all. 

There is no market for designer morphs or hybrids in the hobby as in say the gecko hobby, so why bother. If you raise hybrids, you will not find a buyer for them. 

You are not going to get very many helpful answers on this thread, as most act like children and revert to name calling and hostility whenever the subject comes up. 

I suggest leaving the topic alone. The links provided are bashing sessions, don't waste your time reading them, take my explaination and drop it. 

Oh, Welcome to the board


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

If you have serious questions feel free to send me a PM.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Jellyman said:


> If you have serious questions feel free to send me a PM.


Wonderful!!!!!!!!!! three members contributed with name calling, now Jellyman will be giving advise. 

This is why answering the question even though it comes up every week is necessary.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Scott Richardson said:


> Wonderful!!!!!!!!!! three members contributed with name calling, now Jellyman will be giving advise.


Name calling? I saw one member give a bit of realistic advice and another go to the trouble of researching and posting 7 previous threads where this was discussed. A flame-thrower is a post that starts flame wars, which this topic often does. I don't see any name calling.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> pretty sure this is just a post meant to start another war on here but as for the viv size I would go bigger or lose the idea of how many. That vivs too small for even a pair of most adult darts to thrive in. Id forget about tincs, auratus, terribs, galacts and pretty much anything terrestrial.
> 
> Michael


evolvstll Re: Mixing Species Help!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by poison beauties 
pretty sure this is just a post meant to start another war on here but as for the viv size I would go bigger or lose the idea of how many. That vivs too small for even a pair of most adult darts to thrive in. Id forget about tincs, auratus, terribs, galacts and pretty much anything terrestrial.

Michael 

Yup figured that. Posting the links to see that the thread would fade away. 
Figured the mention of tank size is another attempt at being a war starter.


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

So really? A first post that includes so many inflammatory topics? Someone that appears to have read enough to ask about mixing and then doesn't know not to put desired frogs in a 12x12x18? Really?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

evolvstll said:


> So really? A first post that includes so many inflammatory topics? Someone that appears to have read enough to ask about mixing and then doesn't know not to put desired frogs in a 12x12x18? Really?


Along these lines, if people bothered to check out his cp page, one can readily see that he has checked out the thread to see if the flame war has started.... 

As far as I can tell, we have one troll starting the war and another one starting a second front.... intentional or not...


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Scott Richardson said:


> Wonderful!!!!!!!!!! three members contributed with name calling, now Jellyman will be giving advise.
> 
> This is why answering the question even though it comes up every week is necessary.


What in the hell did I say wrong? ive seen enough of these posts to know when it sounds like the spark on an oncomming firestorm but you seem to be the one who is pouring gas on it. Are you the OP? sure sounds like it to me thought if Im wrong it just means you wanted to fan the flames. 

I simply made a statement on my view of the post before contributing the portion evolvstll decided to leave out. Two subjects both heated and you think we are the problem. 

like I said, 12x12x18 = too small and most know it to even bring up the numbers game. 

And by the way if this guy NEW is wanting to mix, Jelly is the go to guy! Atleast hes not sending hybrids out to people like others have.

Michael


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Scott Richardson said:


> Wonderful!!!!!!!!!! three members contributed with name calling, now Jellyman will be giving advise.
> 
> This is why answering the question even though it comes up every week is necessary.



I offer help to anyone interested. Posts like this are designed to start flame wars. I have yet to receive a PM from the OP. When individuals are honestly looking for advise on setting up a mixed enlosure they typically contact me within a few hours. These threads are typically started to put down mixing but they actually increase the amount of people contacting me for advise and suggestions.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

This is a nonsense post, certainly.

Most of the flame wars are started by people (such as yourself), who will mix no matter what anyone says. You're not happy enough mixing your own frogs; like religion, you seem to feel that everyone else has to conform to your personal belief system.

I've been around long enough now to know that this is true.

Richard.



Jellyman said:


> I offer help to anyone interested. Posts like this are designed to start flame wars. I have yet to receive a PM from the OP. When individuals are honestly looking for advise on setting up a mixed enlosure they typically contact me within a few hours. These threads are typically started to put down mixing but they actually increase the amount of people contacting me for advise and suggestions.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

I've gotta say, i was surprised to see that the username "NEW'' wasn't taken yet...

now...


Scott Richardson said:


> Wonderful!!!!!!!!!! three members contributed with name calling, now Jellyman will be giving advise.
> 
> This is why answering the question even though it comes up every week is necessary.


I don't know about everyone else, but it seems like you, Scott, are the one constantly starting the fights because of comments like these...

just my observation.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

boabab95 said:


> I've gotta say, i was surprised to see that the username "NEW'' wasn't taken yet...
> 
> now...
> 
> ...


Very good observation!!!! I am not trying to start a fight however. My point is everyone is tired of hearing about this topic. So no one wants to explain why the majority are against it, and think because they all said no that the OP won't mix. But there are members like Jellyman (who is open about his views on mixing and hybrids, which is his rights) who take the time to explain how to mix. So by not explaining, you are in a sense pushing them to go ahead and do it. Because the only ones taking the time to explain it are telling them it is ok.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> This is a nonsense post, certainly.
> 
> Most of the flame wars are started by people (such as yourself), who will mix no matter what anyone says. You're not happy enough mixing your own frogs; like religion, you seem to feel that everyone else has to conform to your personal belief system.
> 
> ...


Absolutely, You are spot on about the hybrid issues. I noticed though my take on packing frogs into small vivs went unanswered by you again. Whats this question #how many thousand.......You talk and teach regularly on cramming tinc pairs into tens and yet you go after another person involved in a heated issue? Your as big a hypocrite as any of us. 
Im really surprised you didnt tell the OP to message you about how many frogs really can fit into a small viv. You seem to be the poster boy of that war....

Yeah I know I just fanned the flames too. But Im special......
Michael


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Woodsman said:


> This is a nonsense post, certainly.
> 
> Most of the flame wars are started by people (such as yourself), who will mix no matter what anyone says. You're not happy enough mixing your own frogs; like religion, you seem to feel that everyone else has to conform to your personal belief system.
> 
> ...




You must not read any of the debates. I think it is great that hobbiest want to maintain pure lines. I think there is plenty of room in this hobby for both. I have never tried to pursuade any of the "non mixers" to do anything differently with ther frogs. So who exactly am I trying to make conform to "my beliefs"? I give out advise to those that ask based on my experience. If they choose to mix great if not then no skin off my nose. I just do not think that false statements are acceptable to justify an opinion.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

lol.......


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Dear man made of jelly,

If you were honest, you would confess that you do have an axe to grind.

Signed, a man not made of jelly.



Jellyman said:


> You must not read any of the debates. I think it is great that hobbiest want to maintain pure lines. I think there is plenty of room in this hobby for both. I have never tried to pursuade any of the "non mixers" to do anything differently with ther frogs. So who exactly am I trying to make conform to "my beliefs"? I give out advise to those that ask based on my experience. If they choose to mix great if not then no skin off my nose. I just do not think that false statements are acceptable to justify an opinion.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The Simpsons Videos - Electric Shock Aversion Therapy - Zimbio


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

You are such the defamatory little scoundrel! I bet you get extra rations of gruel from Rich Frye tonight! (or maybe an extra Robalo Pumilio).

You are so see through. I hope no one notices the little emperor has no clothes!

Richard.



poison beauties said:


> Absolutely, You are spot on about the hybrid issues. I noticed though my take on packing frogs into small vivs went unanswered by you again. Whats this question #how many thousand.......You talk and teach regularly on cramming tinc pairs into tens and yet you go after another person involved in a heated issue? Your as big a hypocrite as any of us.
> Im really surprised you didnt tell the OP to message you about how many frogs really can fit into a small viv. You seem to be the poster boy of that war....
> 
> Yeah I know I just fanned the flames too. But Im special......
> Michael


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

7/10 This thread delivers

AFK - Grabbing popcorn. 

I always wonder when I join a new forum what the flame wars on them will be about. I've posted on forums about everything from online gaming to import tuner cars. Some things never change.

I'm assuming that the forums use ip logging. Would be interesting to see who grabbed a "NEW" user name under which to commit forum arson. Unless they're really cleaver and are using some ip spoofing or multiple ip addresses to post.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Wow a BM finally made a great contribution to a FROG thread......


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

ChrisK said:


> Wow a BM finally made a great contribution to a FROG thread......


BM? (ten letters)


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

ChrisK said:


> Wow a BM finally made a great contribution to a FROG thread......


**blushes**


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Woodsman said:


> You are such the defamatory little scoundrel! I bet you get extra rations of gruel from Rich Frye tonight! (or maybe an extra Robalo Pumilio).
> 
> You are so see through. I hope no one notices the little emperor has no clothes!
> 
> Richard.



Sorry man, Rich, myself and others havent met for our quarterly ''What's wrong with Richard Lynch'' meeting. If you remember this issue wasnt about anyone but you and I. I asked you those questions repeatedly and you ran from them. I wont waste time, well too much time retrying. Still it wouldnt hurt to know why your packing your adult tincs into ten gallons with no will to go bigger. Seems like you settled for much less than the frogs deserve. You claim to be a guide for new hobbyists yet you lead with one of the worst examples. 
I will hold back on this as I wasnt expecting to get into it. Just remember you brought up other people I kept it between you and I.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Sorry man, Rich, myself and others havent met for our quarterly ''What's wrong with Richard Lynch'' meeting. If you remember this issue wasnt about anyone but you and I. I asked you those questions repeatedly and you ran from them. I wont waste time, well too much time retrying. Still it wouldnt hurt to know why your packing your adult tincs into ten gallons with no will to go bigger. Seems like you settled for much less than the frogs deserve. You claim to be a guide for new hobbyists yet you lead with one of the worst examples.
> I will hold back on this as I wasnt expecting to get into it. Just remember you brought up other people I kept it between you and I.
> 
> Michael


So is this a position you have landed at with research, or just your personal opinion?

If it's the later, then it strikes me as a bit counter productive to treat as some unassailable truth


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> So is this a position you have landed at with research, or just your personal opinion?
> 
> If it's the later, then it strikes me as a bit counter productive to treat as some unassailable truth


Im basing it on Richards words as wel as our very public past debates. I have nothing but respect for those who help to teach the new hobbyists but you need to lead by example. You cant jump on a thread and go after people over a hot topic when your guilty of being one yourself. 

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Im basing it on Richards words as wel as our very public past debates. I have nothing but respect for those who help to teach the new hobbyists but you need to lead by example. You cant jump on a thread and go after people over a hot topic when your guilty of being one yourself.
> 
> Michael


No, I am speaking of housing tincs in 10 gallon tanks, and what you think the frogs "deserve"

Is this actually based on anything more than your preference?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> No, I am speaking of housing tincs in 10 gallon tanks, and what you think the frogs "deserve"
> 
> Is this actually based on anything more than your preference?


well I'd rather repeat this to Richard for a responce but this is just as good. Tell me this though, why would you want 50 ten gallons of tinc pairs? Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.

When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly. 

Michael


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Jellyman said:


> You must not read any of the debates. I think it is great that hobbiest want to maintain pure lines. I think there is plenty of room in this hobby for both.


if your saying there is room in the hobby for both hybrids (and crossbreeds for those of you that consider them different) and pure line frogs then exactly how do you figure this? considering the hobby isnt even big enough to keep all the species and populations around that have come in over the years, id say there is no where near enough room.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.


These spatial "needs" arguments are getting tedious. 



poison beauties said:


> When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly.
> 
> Michae l


Spatial needs of the frogs are based on resource allocation. You can actually end up with less usable space per frog in a larger enclosure if a person isn't careful..., a simple argument on space isn't valid... as an example, a 30 foot by 30 foot enclosure with no shelter on the floor except for a small 12 square inch spot which is the only area kept moist in the enclosure is less usable space per frog than many smaller enclosures. 

With respect to the parasite argument, on what is this based? How do you know that there won't be the same density in a larger enclosure? On what are you assuming that larger enclosures won't end up with higher densities of parasites such as lungworms which have a freeliving reproductive form? 

The whole "most give" argument is a problem as "most" isn't even a percentage... 

The whole larger is better argument is usually presented without explaining how resource allocation works. It is simply tossed out there as a "*minimum* *spatial* *need*"argument and passed along with many other folklorish beliefs in the hobby. It is usually cited without any* valid supporting information only a mishmash of beliefs by rote repetition of adherents. *

There is a long history of using ten gallon tanks both by the hobby and by institutions that is consistently being ignored by many of the bigger is better crowd.. there has been success with many dendrobatids for a much longer time than most of you have ever been in the hobby. Those tanks were the standard for going on more than 20 years. 


*Can larger enclosures be better, yes, if they are designed properly.*
*Can they be worse than smaller enclosures? Absolutely.* 

As I have stated in the beginning, the whole spatial argument is getting very tedious.. if anyone is going to make the argument on spatial needs, then they should also be able to explain what it means and why instead of spouting unsupported "facts".


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

As usual in these threads, a flame war has started, personal grudges have been pulled out into the open, disparaging comments tossed about..all for what benefit? 

Anyone feeling better about themselves yet? Counted coup yet?


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> well I'd rather repeat this to Richard for a responce but this is just as good. Tell me this though, why would you want 50 ten gallons of tinc pairs? Seems most hobbyists would rather have say a dozen 40 gallons setup nice with the pairs. Its not like it would cost any more to do.
> 
> When your packing tinc pairs into tens it comes out to very little space per frog. Once plants, hides, soil and whatever else gos into the viv there is no space. Most give a thumb pair more space. We as a hobby for the most part have expressed its not for the best as it does increase the risk of an elevated parasite load. Air circulation, humidity and drainage issues also occur regularly.
> 
> Michael


Honestly, I'm really not concerned about what the "hobby" is expressing, or wants. I'm asking if there is any basis for what you are stating her, beyond your preferences. And the answer seems to be no

Which brings us back to my original point: since this is based on nothing more than mere opinion, doesn't it strike you as counter productive to treat such as a set of unassailable rules?


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## Ross (Feb 10, 2008)

I love this forum


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

I laughed my arse(yeah I said it,arse)off in that last post.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

*I CAN'T SPEAK FOR NON EGG FEEDERS*

With that out of the way, I can't see 10 gals being successful for many of the morphs I keep with regards to breeding and rearing successful offspring.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> As usual in these threads, a flame war has started, personal grudges have been pulled out into the open, disparaging comments tossed about..all for what benefit?
> 
> Anyone feeling better about themselves yet? Counted coup yet?


Yeah it's actually a GREAT way to get arguments started and hijacks going in all kinds of directions


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Holy Crap!!!!
I thought this thread was done when I went to bed last night and it only had like 6 posts.
Anyone besides me notice that the OP hasn`t posted?
Looks like we have another winner.

*Edit- of coarse, I only added to this nonsense with my post.

John


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Though I bet you ran right back to Rich to tell him about my post.

Believe me, I am not running from you (as you are unimportant to me). How I keep my frogs is MY business and not the business of the profundly misnamed "Dart Breeders Union". You keep your little club up in the rafters where it belongs!

I would say a lot more, but this is not in the Thunderdome.

Richard.



poison beauties said:


> Sorry man, Rich, myself and others havent met for our quarterly ''What's wrong with Richard Lynch'' meeting. If you remember this issue wasnt about anyone but you and I. I asked you those questions repeatedly and you ran from them. I wont waste time, well too much time retrying. Still it wouldnt hurt to know why your packing your adult tincs into ten gallons with no will to go bigger. Seems like you settled for much less than the frogs deserve. You claim to be a guide for new hobbyists yet you lead with one of the worst examples.
> I will hold back on this as I wasnt expecting to get into it. Just remember you brought up other people I kept it between you and I.
> 
> Michael


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## Allyn Loring (Sep 30, 2008)

Seems every time this gets brought up ,there is ALWAYS the question why not,that question,for some reason gets lost in between the verbal sparing,like it was never asked !!
People treat the question like its stupid to ask, why would you even bother to ask it, go use the search button.I've read some of those threads. The question inevitably ,if it is answered, gets LOST in the rocks being thrown around! After sifting through pages of that kind of content all the time I GIVE up !
I do tell you this I would not want to be duped by someone selling a Hybrid !
For I would not only, not trust myself again for some time, the seller I would never trust again!Ever!Be that a bit of the answer!
I also think of the mix breed thing like this-------I have an acre of land I build my house on it and move in. My neighbor buys the acre next door , and builds his house. The property lines are documented- a fence is erected on that property line.If one of us were to move that fence onto the others property ..........ooooooooh boy !
Each of us sets the line in the sand for ourselves!I myself will never mix or hybridize! That is my line!
I do not envy the mods or owner(s)? of this site, viewing topics of this kind for they sit at a very precarious perch indeed!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> Holy Crap!!!!
> I thought this thread was done when I went to bed last night and it only had like 6 posts.
> Anyone besides me notice that the OP hasn`t posted?
> Looks like we have another winner.
> ...


hi John,

I commented on the fact that he logged in as "new" and checked it more than an hour afterwards. I'm sure he/she is reading it without logging in and being amused.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> Though I bet you ran right back to Rich to tell him about my post.
> 
> Believe me, I am not running from you (as you are unimportant to me). How I keep my frogs is MY business and not the business of the profundly misnamed "Dart Breeders Union". You keep your little club up in the rafters where it belongs!
> 
> ...


Richard, 

How does this help the thread? It is clear that both you and Poison Beauties have an axe to grind.. but is this really the thread to grind that axe?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> *I CAN'T SPEAK FOR NON EGG FEEDERS*
> 
> With that out of the way, I can't see 10 gals being successful for many of the morphs I keep with regards to breeding and rearing successful offspring.


Hi Chris,

How do you know that this isn't an artifact due to a poor understanding of one or more needs of the frog? 
For example, it is documented in the literature that some obligate eggfeeders populations due to available resources can have reduced territories (see Lotter's book for a picture of this with pumilio) and much higher densities, yet the hobby has little understanding of how this works in the wild or an ability to recreat it. 
As a second example, the issue with some obligate froglets having a high mortality rate before the age of 6 months really speaks towards a lack of understanding of some requirement. In reality froglets should be able to be treated similarly to adults. The fact that this doesn't tend to be the case, speaks to our lacking some understanding of thier needs.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Seriously, almost afraid to post in this thread with all the hostility

There are a few debates popping up in here at once, but I'm most intrigued by the tank size debate. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing, but what are the actual benefits of smaller? It seems that it makes for a much more sensitive system with the lack of temperature and humidity gradients, and perhaps more stress for the frogs involved. But the argument for it seems to be if you're careful, it can be done. But in that case, what's really the point of doing it? Why not just give them more space? I'm not sure I see a down side in that.

And for those who say "well, how am I supposed to give a 29/30/40 gallon for all of my dozens of frogs?" or "I can only afford a 10 gallon tank" I think that it comes down to knowing where to stop...or whether to not even begin at the moment.

But then, just my opinion, and admittedly I have nothing I can cite to back it up other than personal experience. Not looking for flames, here, but I am very interested in this particular part of the debate.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

New said:


> I am a beginner to the world of dart frogs, and am in the process of setting up a 12x12x18 vivarium. *Ive heard a lot about the danger of un "pure" frogs and hybrids and am wondering why no one buys them/why they are a big deal? on a side note what would be a good number/type of dart frog (I dont want auratus  )*


*

Well, In a 12x12x18, You could probably keep a medium sized group of tincs, seven or eight pums, three or four Mystis', and maybe a pair or two of dwarf velociraptors. Oh, and don't forget the flock of sheep you'll need to keep in there, the velociraptors get hungry often.*


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

dravenxavier said:


> But then, just my opinion, and admittedly I have nothing I can cite to back it up other than personal experience. Not looking for flames, here, but I am very interested in this particular part of the debate.


my point here is that if it's simply your opinion, then one shouldn't be treating it like holy writ


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

The person in question here has already been banned from Db once for harassing me with precisely the question he puts forward here (yet again attempting to harass me). I have no intention of allowing him to defame me on Db by suggesting that I am not a good frogger. My house is open to anyone at (almost) anytime.

Richard.



Ed said:


> Richard,
> 
> How does this help the thread? It is clear that both you and Poison Beauties have an axe to grind.. but is this really the thread to grind that axe?


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain. There will be aggression/ territorial issues, stagnant water and drainage issues, ventilation issues as well as may fewer options for plants and other viv decor. You can not do any better with a ten gallon than a larger viv. Again if it cost you a couple hundred bucks for the frogs and you cant afford a bigger viv maybe this hobby isnt for you as its a hobby that costs with the needed diet and other supplies involved. The viv is just about the cheapest part of this hobby especially when there are $1 per gallon sales at petco.

Richard thunderdome or not keep it up and I wil hurt your feelings on this. Do I need to pull up the videos from recent wars? You just said its your business what you do with your frogs and vivs yes but when your using them as examples and you value yourself as a teacher to new hobbyists and outsiders who form opinions on this hobby easily expect counter points on the subject. You can not tell me you have better outcomes with you frogs in tens than you would larger vivs. You seem to be based more as a business than a hobbyist as far as I can tell by your practices. Im very surprised your not keeping tinc pairs in 190oz containers so you can stack them in and get more of them. Good luck with it Im out.,.

Michael


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain.


The point is that unless you can show, with actual facts and research, that a method that has been used for years is detrimental in someway, then it's nothing more than your mere opinion. And standing up and stating your opinion is sacrosanct, and somehow should be adopted by all members of the hobby, is silly.

Personally, I think the general plant selections, husbandry, and lighting used in the hobby suck. But being that it's my personal preference I'm not berating people for not conforming to my standards. Because I understand such behavior would make me look like a dogmatic douche


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> The point is that unless you can show, with actual facts and research, that a method that has been used for years is detrimental in someway, then it's nothing more than your mere opinion. And standing up and stating your opinion is sacrosanct, and somehow should be adopted by all members of the hobby, is silly.


Look at all the complaints about tincs being tiny compared to years past. It could be caused by any number of deficiencies in husbandry but cramming them into the smallest viv possible certainly can't be helping the situation.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

The phrase puppy mill comes to mind.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> There are a few debates popping up in here at once, but I'm most intrigued by the tank size debate. Maybe there's just something I'm not seeing, but what are the actual benefits of smaller? It seems that it makes for a much more sensitive system with the lack of temperature and humidity gradients, and perhaps more stress for the frogs involved. But the argument for it seems to be if you're careful, it can be done. But in that case, what's really the point of doing it? Why not just give them more space? I'm not sure I see a down side in that.
> where to stop...


I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion on it. The thing that is most commonly skipped over is that a well set up smaller enclosure can be a lot better for a frog than a poorly set up larger enclosure. Now don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate for larger enclosures but the level of dogma around this topic is becoming very tedious. 

We can start with some history.. up until about 2004, the iron clad rule that many in the hobby dictated was 5 gallons/frog particularly when setting up groups of frogs in larger sized enclosures. At that time, virtually all of the commonly used enclosures were aquariums which were designed for an animal (fish) because they used 3 dimensions. To cut the explanation short (you can read the whole argument here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html) as the size of the enclosures increased, the available area for the frogs decreased due to larger volumes of space that were not accessiable to the frogs (as they can't float or fly). 

In reality, the territorial needs of an animal are determined by how seperate different resources are needed for the animal. In this case we are looking at egg deposition, calling perches, (in some species) mate guarding, and tadpole deposition sites. Dendrobatids do not appear to guard feeding areas. 

The closer these are provided to one another, the smaller the resulting territory as there is less need to defend a larger area (saving important metabolic needs) from other competitors. 

This is why it is important to understand why resource allocation is important when setting up an enclosure. 

If the frogs are provided with shelters in which they can hide, then stress is typically not an issue.

One of the bigger issues, is that people may ignore the needs of the animals and set up aesthetically pleasing enclosures which are often considered to be a status symbol in the local hobby with both unofficial and (occasionally) official competitions. These enclosures often are planted to the point that primarily leaf litter species are obstructed from being able to move readily. 

That should be a good starting point.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> Look at all the complaints about tincs being tiny compared to years past. It could be caused by any number of deficiencies in husbandry but cramming them into the smallest viv possible certainly can't be helping the situation.


On what basis is placing them in a ten gallon tank going to induce a smaller size? Hwo is this not like the pet store employee telling someone that a burmese python will only grow to the size of the enclosure... 

I would suggest looking at feeding, humidity, photoperiod, and planting before we look at size of the enclosure.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> my point here is that if it's simply your opinion, then one shouldn't be treating it like holy writ


Hi BM,

I don't think this poster was acting like it was writ. He was actually asking why to get information. 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> Hi BM,
> 
> I don't think this poster was acting like it was writ. He was actually asking why to get information.
> 
> Ed


Maybe I was wording that poorly, but the "treating like holy writ" wasn't directed at him, but was more an attempt to explain my basis for questioning the claim regarding 10 gallon tanks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> The person in question here has already been banned from Db once for harassing me with precisely the question he puts forward here (yet again attempting to harass me). I have no intention of allowing him to defame me on Db by suggesting that I am not a good frogger. My house is open to anyone at (almost) anytime.
> 
> Richard.


 
Then instead of whacking around with an ax in a thread in a totally OT manner, either invite them to the dome or take it up with a moderator. Neither of you should have been throwing axes while others who have no part of the problem are in the way. 

The forum has a rule about treatment of others, baiting and both of you have violated it in my opinion. Be glad I'm not a moderator...


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

I really appreciate it when a member takes the time to actually threaten me before they make the insults.

Richard.



poison beauties said:


> If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain. There will be aggression/ territorial issues, stagnant water and drainage issues, ventilation issues as well as may fewer options for plants and other viv decor. You can not do any better with a ten gallon than a larger viv. Again if it cost you a couple hundred bucks for the frogs and you cant afford a bigger viv maybe this hobby isnt for you as its a hobby that costs with the needed diet and other supplies involved. The viv is just about the cheapest part of this hobby especially when there are $1 per gallon sales at petco.
> 
> Richard thunderdome or not keep it up and I wil hurt your feelings on this. Do I need to pull up the videos from recent wars? You just said its your business what you do with your frogs and vivs yes but when your using them as examples and you value yourself as a teacher to new hobbyists and outsiders who form opinions on this hobby easily expect counter points on the subject. You can not tell me you have better outcomes with you frogs in tens than you would larger vivs. You seem to be based more as a business than a hobbyist as far as I can tell by your practices. Im very surprised your not keeping tinc pairs in 190oz containers so you can stack them in and get more of them. Good luck with it Im out.,.
> 
> Michael


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion on it. The thing that is most commonly skipped over is that a well set up smaller enclosure can be a lot better for a frog than a poorly set up larger enclosure. Now don't get me wrong, I'm an advocate for larger enclosures but the level of dogma around this topic is becoming very tedious.
> 
> We can start with some history.. up until about 2004, the iron clad rule that many in the hobby dictated was 5 gallons/frog particularly when setting up groups of frogs in larger sized enclosures. At that time, virtually all of the commonly used enclosures were aquariums which were designed for an animal (fish) because they used 3 dimensions. To cut the explanation short (you can read the whole argument here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html) as the size of the enclosures increased, the available area for the frogs decreased due to larger volumes of space that were not accessiable to the frogs (as they can't float or fly).
> 
> ...


All good points. Part of the differences in opinion may stem from different groups of frogs being kept by different people. A 40 gallon breeder with leaf litter and some sparse planting would be far more useful for a pair of terrestrial frogs vs. a 40 vert with a heavily planted back wall, which would be more useful for a pair of Oophaga or thumbs.

This being said...if a particular person is prone to setting up an improper larger tank, then what would the odds be of the same person setting up a proper smaller tank, which is more sensitive and less forgiving in it's various parameters. Meaning, if someone could set up a 10 gallon that could (for argument's sake) work for a pair of tincs, then the same person should, in the best assumption, be able to set up a larger tank that would also be well suited (better suited?) to the species.

To me, it then comes down to a "we can, but should we?" sort of thing. I feel like it almost boils down to a competition to see who can keep and breed their frogs in the smallest given space, which just doesn't sit right with me. Or, fitting the largest number of frogs in the allotted space, which also doesn't really sit right with me. Again, though, all opinion.

The one thing that I can see about larger tanks, is that people do seem to overdo them sometimes. That there is so much space available, so a pond gets added, plus a moving water feature, and all sorts of other things that eat up available space to the frogs. I'm more trying to refer to the same keeper setting up a similar setup in two different sized tanks, if that makes more sense.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> If anyone has a better idea on how 10 gallons should be managed for tinc breeding Im all ears, My idea on it is they should not be used. Its simple, you can not tell me that a larger viv say 20-55 gallons is not easier to maintain. There will be aggression/ territorial issues, stagnant water and drainage issues, ventilation issues as well as may fewer options for plants and other viv decor. You can not do any better with a ten gallon than a larger viv. Again if it cost you a couple hundred bucks for the frogs and you cant afford a bigger viv maybe this hobby isnt for you as its a hobby that costs with the needed diet and other supplies involved. The viv is just about the cheapest part of this hobby especially when there are $1 per gallon sales at petco.


 

The problem is that this presents the whole idea that a larger enclosure regardless if it is properly set up or not is better than a smaller enclosure. 

Let us look at your comment on ventilation.. the current standard in the hobby is to reduce the ability of the enclosure to exchange air with the outside of the enclosure to maximize humidity so we can discard the ventilation argument. Even if we consider ventilation, why can't vent(s) be added to a ten to resolve the issue? 

The territorial argument, is moot as I understand the discussion has been around pairs and not groups. 

Drainage is readily addressed by raising the false bottom and/or plumbing the tank. The false bottom can be deeper as the frogs don't float or fly. This isn't setting up something for fish. 

Plant issues.. as I understood it we are mainly discussing tinctorius which do not need plants. Reduced selection isn't a big deal for them unless you are cramming the tank full of plants so the frogs can't move. 

Vivarium decor.. is this for the frogs or the person? If it is for a pair of frogs, what decor is considered something that the frog's can't do without? 






poison beauties said:


> Richard thunderdome or not keep it up and I wil hurt your feelings on this. Do I need to pull up the videos from recent wars? You just said its your business what you do with your frogs and vivs yes but when your using them as examples and you value yourself as a teacher to new hobbyists and outsiders who form opinions on this hobby easily expect counter points on the subject. You can not tell me you have better outcomes with you frogs in tens than you would larger vivs. You seem to be based more as a business than a hobbyist as far as I can tell by your practices. Im very surprised your not keeping tinc pairs in 190oz containers so you can stack them in and get more of them. Good luck with it Im out.,.
> 
> Michael


What I just said about Richard and the axes applies just as much to you Michael. The issue between the two of you should not be here on this part of the forum.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> All good points. Part of the differences in opinion may stem from different groups of frogs being kept by different people. A 40 gallon breeder with leaf litter and some sparse planting would be far more useful for a pair of terrestrial frogs vs. a 40 vert with a heavily planted back wall, which would be more useful for a pair of Oophaga or thumbs.
> 
> This being said...if a particular person is prone to setting up an improper larger tank, then what would the odds be of the same person setting up a proper smaller tank, which is more sensitive and less forgiving in it's various parameters. Meaning, if someone could set up a 10 gallon that could (for argument's sake) work for a pair of tincs, then the same person should, in the best assumption, be able to set up a larger tank that would also be well suited (better suited?) to the species.
> 
> To me, it then comes down to a "we can, but should we?" sort of thing. I feel like it almost boils down to a competition to see who can keep and breed their frogs in the smallest given space, which just doesn't sit right with me. Or, fitting the largest number of frogs in the allotted space, which also doesn't really sit right with me. Again, though, all opinion.


I'm going to pare this down a little for brevity's sake. If I missed something you felt was important, it wasn't intentional. 

I don't think it is a competition on who can do x in the smallest space as the standard for more than 20 years was ten gallon tanks for pairs of tincts etc. In reality it is a competition on who can provide the largest space for the frogs and others follow suit with a keeping up with the Joneses mentality and people who don't follow it are given grief for violating the dogma. 

I agree a person who can successfully do a smaller tank can do a larger tank but that is not how the rule is passed down to others. Newer people are told things like "I don't consider that a suitable tank for x,y,z)".. even if that type of frog was maintained in those size enclosures for decades... 

On these same lines, a person who doesn't understand why they are doing something are as likely to make a poor set up in a larger tank as a smaller one. This is why it is crucial for those advocating a larger enclosure to understand and be able to explain resource allocation and how it has to function with the frogs.. They should also point out that overplanting a tank so it looks good may not be in the best interest of the frogs...


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## saruchan (Jun 12, 2010)

Where did New go?


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

saruchan said:


> Where did New go?


New is now Old and gone to wreak havoc elsewhere.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

Ed said:


> On what basis is placing them in a ten gallon tank going to induce a smaller size?


I didn't say that it was, only that it was a possible contributor. Simple common sense dictates that a larger space will be more stable than a smaller one, taking longer to accumulate waste products and providing more surface area for beneficial microfauna. As has been brought up already, someone who can't design a suitable large viv won't be any better at designing a small one, but at least the larger one will be better to a small degree simply by the increased surface area. 

A small enclosure is at best a neutral factor in husbandry, but more likely to be a negative. Why not push for something better than "probably good enough"?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I didn't say that it was, only that it was a possible contributor.


And I asked you to justify that statement. Please supply an argument by which that would reduce size in a dendrobatid...



Tony said:


> Simple common sense dictates that a larger space will be more stable than a smaller one, taking longer to accumulate waste products and providing more surface area for beneficial microfauna.


What waste products? Where is it accumulating? 
What do you mean by beneficial microfauna? It seems like you are implying beneficial bacteria but I'm not going to take liberties with guessing.

People say common sense but are then unable to support thier argument.. just like the old adage that by following a rule of 5 or ten gallons/frog you will provide more space in larger tanks... It was common sense that more frogs could still be housed in larger tanks because larger tanks provided more space..... 



Tony said:


> As has been brought up already, someone who can't design a suitable large viv won't be any better at designing a small one, but at least the larger one will be better to a small degree simply by the increased surface area.


Actually this is an incorrect assumption. To use an extreme example, I have a 30 foot by 30 foot room in which I place a pair of frogs and I only place leaf litter and plants in one area which is 10 inches by 10 inches and that is the only area that I supply water how is this better than a ten gallon tank that is set up properly? 

Also see the multispecies thread I linked above that shows that with larger enclosures you may not get more room/frog. 



Tony said:


> A small enclosure is at best a neutral factor in husbandry, but more likely to be a negative. Why not push for something better than "probably good enough"?


It is often a neutral factor but if you are comparing improperly set up larger enclosures versus smaller properly set up enclosures it no longer is neutral but a positive. 

As I stated above I am actually an advocate for larger enclosures. My issue is that there is a lot of folklore and dogma associated with the larger is better recommendations and we have already seen a host of them in just this thread.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ugh,already 7 PAGES!?!? Let's just give it a break,the OP is banned,there is no point in arguing,actually there was no point in the first place.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Tony said:


> I didn't say that it was, only that it was a possible contributor. Simple common sense dictates that a larger space will be more stable than a smaller one, taking longer to accumulate waste products and providing more surface area for beneficial microfauna. As has been brought up already, someone who can't design a suitable large viv won't be any better at designing a small one, but at least the larger one will be better to a small degree simply by the increased surface area.
> 
> A small enclosure is at best a neutral factor in husbandry, but more likely to be a negative. Why not push for something better than "probably good enough"?


Actually I can state from experience with multiple species and not just darts that bigger is not always better. A couple of issues that I have seen with bigger tanks are as follows:

1) Food items are dispersed over a larger area and are harder to find. Keep in mind some species are also rather timid and need to have food cross their line of sight before they hunt(This is much harder to achive in a bigger rather than smaller tank)

2) In a bigger tank an animal may spend more time trying to actively patrol and defend their territory to the detriment of securing enough food to maintain proper body weight.

3) A smaller tank allows you to maintain more enclosures which is valuable at times to separate animals that are squabbling.


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## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

I have no interest in arguing semantics over common sense. Of course a 30'x30' room with a 100 in^2 area of leaf litter would be inadequate, but that is an absurd example of arguing just for the sake of arguing and I won't waste my time. When it comes down to it, I will take advice from guys like Chris K. and Rich Frye who actually have results to show over theory. Froglets trump "theoretically good enough", and if that's not good enough because they haven't been published in a journal that charges $15 to read each article then so be it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I've read this entire thread only because I have some time to kill before work. Sure did bounce all over the place...

Nobody will ever convince me that a 10g tank is ok for Tincs. Bigger is better IMO. Short and sweet. You can argue about it all week long.

My 2 cents


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

This is absolutely ridiculous.
You complain about the OP using this thread to start a flame-war, and that's exactly what he did. Don't you understand that all this arguing is *JUST* what the OP intended? Everyone has opinions, and around here people express those opinions.....enthusiastically, shall we say? But no matter how long you argue for, no matter how valid your points are, no one will win. If you put an atheist and a devout christian in the same room for a week, they'll argue and argue, but odds are when you take them out, they'll still be that atheist and that christian you left in there. Perhaps not the best metaphor, but I think you understand what I mean.
All this axe-grinding and shouting is pointless. After this thread dies, opinions will remain unchanged, and the argument will be forgotten. Until, of course, the next mixing thread.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tony said:


> I have no interest in arguing semantics over common sense. Of course a 30'x30' room with a 100 in^2 area of leaf litter would be inadequate, but that is an absurd example of arguing just for the sake of arguing and I won't waste my time.


Actually it isn't an argue over semantics, you threw an "reason" into the ring on why smaller tanks are inferior and were asked to justify it. Now you are dodging the question by claiming it is semantics. At this moment your example has as much validity as claiming it is because they put a traffic light outside of your room. 

Is it any more "absurd" than your contention that a larger enclosure is always better? I simply cited an example of how your position on larger enclosures breaks down... 



Tony said:


> When it comes down to it, I will take advice from guys like Chris K. and Rich Frye who actually have results to show over theory. Froglets trump "theoretically good enough", and if that's not good enough because they haven't been published in a journal that charges $15 to read each article then so be it, we'll just have to agree to disagree.


Interesting, if you are claiming froglets are the bottom line, then you are validating the 20 plus years those enclosures were used to churn out froglets .... so again your position breaks down. 

With respect to journal citations, this is an addition in an attempt to throw the trail into a different direction and has no validity in the discussion. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> I've read this entire thread only because I have some time to kill before work. Sure did bounce all over the place...
> 
> Nobody will ever convince me that a 10g tank is ok for Tincs. Bigger is better IMO. Short and sweet. You can argue about it all week long.
> 
> My 2 cents


 
And I have said bigger is better several times.. I'm simply breaking down the unsupported dogma that people cite as reasons on why. Some of the participents are clearly taking that personally... 

Ed


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Ed said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> How do you know that this isn't an artifact due to a poor understanding of one or more needs of the frog?
> For example, it is documented in the literature that some obligate eggfeeders populations due to available resources can have reduced territories (see Lotter's book for a picture of this with pumilio) and much higher densities, yet the hobby has little understanding of how this works in the wild or an ability to recreat it.
> As a second example, the issue with some obligate froglets having a high mortality rate before the age of 6 months really speaks towards a lack of understanding of some requirement. In reality froglets should be able to be treated similarly to adults. The fact that this doesn't tend to be the case, speaks to our lacking some understanding of thier needs.


Hey Ed,

Yeah I know some people are successful with pumilio in 10 g's, one guy in PA used to get pretty good production out of lots of pum morphs in 10 verts, I wouldn't do it myself though, some people also report production from them in qt containers and deli cups during transport, so who really knows.

I was talking more about the histrionicus/sylvaticus, SO MUCH anectodal stuff from the people with the most experience with them (as well as an anecdotal euro study) shows that the only real way we know of so far to get steady successful CB adults out of them is for the most part leaving the froglets in the tank with the parents until at least 5-6 months (or in some rare cases, leaving them in the tank they morphed in which is another discussion), one of my pairs can produce sometimes 5-7 froglets out of the water within a month of each other, the only way I can feel comfortable is with them in a larger tank (obviously set up correctly) - as well as seeing that they always choose the largest of broms to sleep/deposit in - they may choose the smaller ones or film cans if given no choice though, so anyway like I said I can't really picture any real kind of success with those in 10 g's.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

This thread is great.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

fleshfrombone said:


> This thread is great.


We should call up NBC and tell them to replace biggest losers or some other reality show with screenshots from dendroboard.
Now THAT's entertaining.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> And I have said bigger is better several times.. I'm simply breaking down the unsupported dogma that people cite as reasons on why. Some of the participents are clearly taking that personally...
> 
> Ed


With all due respect, then why are we arguing or trying to prove that a 20 is better than a ten. It's not something that can be proven now is it... So all this arguing is pointless then too...

It's simple, they have more elbow room...Anyone that looks at a pair of Tincs in a ten can see that they could use some more room. 

I don't get this at all...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ChrisK said:


> Hey Ed,
> 
> Yeah I know some people are successful with pumilio in 10 g's, one guy in PA used to get pretty good production out of lots of pum morphs in 10 verts, I wouldn't do it myself though, some people also report production from them in qt containers and deli cups during transport, so who really knows.
> 
> I was talking more about the histrionicus/sylvaticus, SO MUCH anectodal stuff from the people with the most experience with them (as well as an anecdotal euro study) shows that the only real way we know of so far to get steady successful CB adults out of them is for the most part leaving the froglets in the tank with the parents until at least 5-6 months (or in some rare cases, leaving them in the tank they morphed in which is another discussion), one of my pairs can produce sometimes 5-7 froglets out of the water within a month of each other, the only way I can feel comfortable is with them in a larger tank (obviously set up correctly) - as well as seeing that they always choose the largest of broms to sleep/deposit in - they may choose the smaller ones or film cans if given no choice though, so anyway like I said I can't really picture any real kind of success with those in 10 g's.


I get it and I don't have a problem with it. It's just the dogmatic and parroted arguments and reasons that get to me... 

I was just pointing out that this success often stops people from thinking about why the wild populations can be much denser and successful while captive populations are not.... We as a hobby are missing a large piece of the puzzle here... and we shouldn't stop trying to figure it out. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> With all due respect, then why are we arguing or trying to prove that a 20 is better than a ten. It's not something that can be proven now is it... So all this arguing is pointless then too...
> 
> It's simple, they have more elbow room...Anyone that looks at a pair of Tincs in a ten can see that they could use some more room.
> 
> I don't get this at all...


 
It is fine to suggest that a larger enclosure is better but the reasons that people cite are often at best baseless or even contradictory. The main thought is that larger is always better; even when this is patently not the case. A larger poorly set up enclosure is no better than a smaller badly set up enclosure and is worse than a smaller properly set up enclosure. People have to get out of the mind set that bigger is always better. 

In this thread, we have had many baseless comments about enclosure size affecting the size of the frogs, buildup of waste, ventilation, etc and all have been unsupported. 

If people are going to suggest larger enclosures then they should also show due diligence in providing direction on proper set-ups.. not simply throw out that is too small yada yada yada....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I seperated this on purpose.. 

I think we can readily discuss and come up with reasons why a properly set up larger enclosure is better than a properly set up smaller enclosure, however we have to recognize that properly set up is not going to be the same for all species. 

Right off the bat we can put out there that for primarily terrestrial species, leaf litter is important and moss is unimportant except for aesthetic purposes. 

for the tinctorius group, bromeliads are not needed in the enclosure.. some form of hut for courtship and egg deposition is needed... 

There are a lot more of these... 

Ed


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Mapp said:


> We should call up NBC and tell them to replace biggest losers or some other reality show with screenshots from dendroboard.
> Now THAT's entertaining.


Yes but keep the title.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Ed said:


> not simply throw out that is too small yada yada yada....


Why? Like I said before, all you have to do is look at 2 Tincs in a ten and see that they could use some more room. So, if people say a ten is to small, why to they have to back it up?

My wife and I sleep in a queen size bed. A double is to small. Do I have to prove that too?

Just saying...

and off to work I go


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfreak said:


> Why? Like I said before, all you have to do is look at 2 Tincs in a ten and see that they could use some more room. So, if people say a ten is to small, why to they have to back it up?
> 
> My wife and I sleep in a queen size bed. A double is to small. Do I have to prove that too?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Glenn,

So the fact that tens were standard and successful for more than 20 years doesn't have any weight in this discussion?

How are you seperating out anthropomorphism from the decision process?

Why do they need more room? Food is provided so foraging is out, egg deposition sites are provided, shelter is provided, the rooms are temperature controlled so they don't have to look for microniches to avoid extremes. So why? 

See my post above here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/69995-mixing-species-help-9.html#post612663


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Since its not going to end why should I, I do have a bit to add here. You explained away many of the valid reasons we have attempted to use as to why go bigger than atleast a ten. Back to ventilation.....We all know most with a ten just use a simple piece of glass, that said you wourself said the hobby leans towards a more closed in unventilated viv. With that comes the build up of CO2 and if your using a ten gallon I dont see your option to leave the viv unattended being a good one. I could and have left my vivs 55 gallons untouched for more than a week and even two when I had no choice. Who would do this with a ten? Would someone with a ten gallon of tincs be lwilling to test this out vs a larger viv? We all know of the talks in the past of darts dieing to CO2 build up. With a 10 gallon without much of or any plantlife since tincs dont require it I dont see it going well for the frogs. I would much rather leave my frogs in a larger viv with a better chance and more stable and abundant microfauna population. 

Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Actually I was hoping it would end with suggestions on how to do it successfully. Which I tried to start above. 

So why do you think that a larger enclosure with a larger biomass living it isn't at as much risk as a smaller enclosure?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Since its not going to end why should I, I do have a bit to add here. You explained away many of the valid reasons we have attempted to use as to why go bigger than atleast a ten. Back to ventilation.....We all know most with a ten just use a simple piece of glass, that said you wourself said the hobby leans towards a more closed in unventilated viv. With that comes the build up of CO2 and if your using a ten gallon I dont see your option to leave the viv unattended being a good one. I could and have left my vivs 55 gallons untouched for more than a week and even two when I had no choice. Who would do this with a ten? Would someone with a ten gallon of tincs be lwilling to test this out vs a larger viv? We all know of the talks in the past of darts dieing to CO2 build up. With a 10 gallon without much of or any plantlife since tincs dont require it I dont see it going well for the frogs. I would much rather leave my frogs in a larger viv with a better chance and more stable and abundant microfauna population.
> 
> Michael


I have tinc morphs living in 10 gallon tanks and in 40 gallon tanks. Can't say I have seen much diffrence in behavior, weight or heath of either groups(2 groups in each size tank)


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> I have tinc morphs living in 10 gallon tanks and in 40 gallon tanks. Can't say I have seen much diffrence in behavior, weight or heath of either groups(2 groups in each size tank)


Noted Roman, but what about the difference in a long term scenerio, and what about an unattended viv for a period of time. My guess is you will notice a difference.

Michael


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## evolvstll (Feb 17, 2007)

poison beauties said:


> Since its not going to end why should I, I do have a bit to add here. You explained away many of the valid reasons we have attempted to use as to why go bigger than atleast a ten. Back to ventilation.....We all know most with a ten just use a simple piece of glass, that said you wourself said the hobby leans towards a more closed in unventilated viv. With that comes the build up of CO2 and if your using a ten gallon I dont see your option to leave the viv unattended being a good one. I could and have left my vivs 55 gallons untouched for more than a week and even two when I had no choice. Who would do this with a ten? Would someone with a ten gallon of tincs be lwilling to test this out vs a larger viv? We all know of the talks in the past of darts dieing to CO2 build up. With a 10 gallon without much of or any plantlife since tincs dont require it I dont see it going well for the frogs. I would much rather leave my frogs in a larger viv with a better chance and more stable and abundant microfauna population.
> 
> Michael


Dieing from CO2 buildup? Really? I have not experienced any such thing.........ever. 

A 10 set up: Can have a sloped front, that can allow for egg deposit. Ghost wood placed to allow more space. Choosing plants with broad flat leaves that will allow even more space. Even fitting in 2 coco huts. Just a few for starters.


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## NathanB (Jan 21, 2008)

I for one don't want to think for myself. Bigger is always better.


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm a big fan of "bigger is better." but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a ten gallon for most species of tincs. I have an azureus pair breeding and living great in a ten gallon. I wouldn't put something as large as cobalts or terribilis in a ten, but most frogs are fine. 

And where is this CO2 death coming from? I've never heard anyone have this problem. Maybe if your tank was air tight and had no plants at all... However, no tank is going to be air tight. And who builds a viv without plants? Finally, who doesn't touch their vivs for a week? My frogs like to eat, and I'd like them to live. You're not going to leave your frogs viv closed up for weeks. If you do, and the frogs are dead, it's from a lack of food, not CO2. This theory is utterly ridiculous.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> I seperated this on purpose..
> 
> I think we can readily discuss and come up with reasons why a properly set up larger enclosure is better than a properly set up smaller enclosure, however we have to recognize that properly set up is not going to be the same for all species.
> 
> ...


My feelings exactly. I think this could be a good discussion, but it seems most people get too defensive. Let us assume that if someone were capable of setting up an appropriate 10 gallon, they are capable of setting up a suitable larger tank as well.

The notes on terrestrial setups having correct planting and leaf litter alludes to my earlier comment on the fact. However, I feel if someone is going to insist on heavy planting either way, a 10 gallon can become far overgrown much more quickly and uncontrollably than a larger tank. That space can be choked out of a smaller tank much more easily, especially given many of the large/fast-growing plants many people (especially beginners) tend to use.

The lack of difference in condition between frogs kept in smaller vs. larger enclosures is also noted. However, I'll also put out the question of quality of life and mental stimulation. I've gotten more and more into this line of thought the past few years, and I've become increasingly convinced that mental stimulation is important to many animals, including frogs. That the increase in quality of life for a frog or pair of frogs when given access to a larger space with more varied microclimates, foraging options, etc. It's a concept that may prove impossible to really substantiate in reptiles and amphibians, but it seems to have become a standard for many mammals in zoological institutions, and I have certainly seen a difference in behavior with some reptiles that are more active/attentive, like Kunishir Island ratsnakes when given a larger, more natural enclosure. That while the physical needs of the frogs may be met, I don't think that we've really gotten into the understanding of the mental well-being of many of these animals.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> Noted Roman, but what about the difference in a long term scenerio, and what about an unattended viv for a period of time. My guess is you will notice a difference.
> 
> Michael


Seeing as none of the tanks have a built in population of FFs I think they would starve equally quickly if left unattended. In terms of long term scenarios, all tanks in question have been going for longer than 18 months. I can only speculate what the impact would be on long term lifespan since we are nowhere near normal lifespan for any of the groups in question.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JasonE said:


> I'm a big fan of "bigger is better." but there is absolutely nothing wrong with a ten gallon for most species of tincs. I have an azureus pair breeding and living great in a ten gallon. I wouldn't put something as large as cobalts or terribilis in a ten, but most frogs are fine.
> 
> And where is this CO2 death coming from? I've never heard anyone have this problem. Maybe if your tank was air tight and had no plants at all... However, no tank is going to be air tight. And who builds a viv without plants? Finally, who doesn't touch their vivs for a week? My frogs like to eat, and I'd like them to live. You're not going to leave your frogs viv closed up for weeks. If you do, and the frogs are dead, it's from a lack of food, not CO2. This theory is utterly ridiculous.


There was an article published a while back in the Swedish Dendrobatid newsletter that was translated and published on the original British Dendrobatid site. The author was able to link CO2 to the deaths of some frogs in poorly ventilated enclosures. 

The original article was titled CO2 dangers in the vivarium and the author was Thomas Falk. 

I think there is a copy in the Frognet Archives and I believe I've cited it on here in the past. 

Ed


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## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

Fair enough. I still say if you leave your frogs alone for a week or more, and they are dead, it's probably from a lack of food.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Perhaps due to the plants respiring during the night, depleting oxygen when there is no photosynthesis occurring.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

First off a CO2 build up can and will happen in an unventilated viv and even in vivs such as verts with vents with no air circulation. I have not had the issues myself as I have always as far back as 1999 used 55 gallons for tinc pairs/trios as well as my thumb groups. But it has happened.

Second man shit happens and if you have a life, kids, a wife and a shitload on your plate to get done the vivs can and will sit sometimes and there is no helping it when it comes to emergencies and such. There has not been an active dart community in ATL like other places so without help I can trust I like many have gone above and beyond with the use of microfauna. You dont really think I busted ass to put out good thriving mixed cultures for no reason do you? I could walk away from my vivs for a month and I guarantee you the frogs would not starve. In this hobby with a well documented reach for expanding the frogs diets beyond ff I see no reason a dart would starve if your doing you part. Unless maybe you have a pair of tincs in a 10 that destroy a micro fauna population because it doesnt happen in a larger established viv like that. This BS of frogs straving first is nothing but a detour from my statements on CO2 build up.

Michael


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> My feelings exactly. I think this could be a good discussion, but it seems most people get too defensive. Let us assume that if someone were capable of setting up an appropriate 10 gallon, they are capable of setting up a suitable larger tank as well.
> 
> The notes on terrestrial setups having correct planting and leaf litter alludes to my earlier comment on the fact. However, I feel if someone is going to insist on heavy planting either way, a 10 gallon can become far overgrown much more quickly and uncontrollably than a larger tank. That space can be choked out of a smaller tank much more easily, especially given many of the large/fast-growing plants many people (especially beginners) tend to use.
> 
> The lack of difference in condition between frogs kept in smaller vs. larger enclosures is also noted. However, I'll also put out the question of quality of life and mental stimulation. I've gotten more and more into this line of thought the past few years, and I've become increasingly convinced that mental stimulation is important to many animals, including frogs. That the increase in quality of life for a frog or pair of frogs when given access to a larger space with more varied microclimates, foraging options, etc. It's a concept that may prove impossible to really substantiate in reptiles and amphibians, but it seems to have become a standard for many mammals in zoological institutions, and I have certainly seen a difference in behavior with some reptiles that are more active/attentive, like Kunishir Island ratsnakes when given a larger, more natural enclosure. That while the physical needs of the frogs may be met, I don't think that we've really gotten into the understanding of the mental well-being of many of these animals.


Well I just lost a long write up thanks to a backspace that jumped me three pages back instead of deleting the word I wanted to delete. 

Given what you are interested in with respect to husbandry, I strongly suggest getting a copy of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles as it talks about stress and in a roundabout way enrichment. There is a fine line between enrichment and stress which results in immune and hormone suppression.. Behaviors that can be interpreted as alertness may also be stress related so some care is often called for when going that route. 

Keep in mind that sterotypy has not been documented for anurans with the exception of behaviors that result from critical stressors like excessively high temperatures. In any case we already do a lot with these frogs that would count as enrichment with mammals such as broadcast feeding, foraging, enviromental enrichnment (misting as an example).. 

With respect to the comment about size differences, those have been noted between wild caught and captive bred animals not between the sizes of the enclosures. There has been several discussion on "poor quality frogs" and things to really consider with respect towards those frogs are based on how they are managed.. as an example, adult size is directly correlated with size when reproduction is reached with earlier reproducing adults staying smaller as resources are directed from growth to reproduction. This is an important point because virtually all of the frogs in the hobby are maintained in conditions which mimic conditions under which reproduction occurs year round even when those frogs would routinely undergo at least one and typically two non-breeding seasons in a yearly cycle. This husbandry method effectively prevents growth as the frogs are reproducing all year round.. 
As a second issue, most of the frogs until very recently were deficient in vitamin A, as all of the supplements used beta carotene as the source of vitamin A (due to bad information spread in the hobby), which it turns out that beta carotene is a poor source of A for the frogs. Other carotenoids are the most likely precursors in anurans. So we have diet and husbandry right off the bat as the two most likely causes of differences between wild caught and captive bred animals. There are other issues to be considered as well. I'm going to break this off as it is getting really long.. let me know if I missed something. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JasonE said:


> Fair enough. I still say if you leave your frogs alone for a week or more, and they are dead, it's probably from a lack of food.


It should take more than a week for the vast majority of frogs to starve to death even in enclosures that are lacking in microfauna. 

Ed


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> Well I just lost a long write up thanks to a backspace that jumped me three pages back instead of deleting the word I wanted to delete.
> 
> Given what you are interested in with respect to husbandry, I strongly suggest getting a copy of Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles as it talks about stress and in a roundabout way enrichment. There is a fine line between enrichment and stress which results in immune and hormone suppression.. Behaviors that can be interpreted as alertness may also be stress related so some care is often called for when going that route.
> 
> ...


I think that it's not a matter of making them engage in their environment, but I feel it's an important option to have available should they so choose. Small tanks do not really give that option, nor do they really give a lot of options for finding a niche to hide or get out of the way on their own, but rather be restricted to whatever hides are provided (i.e. coco huts).

Reasonably, how many options can there be for a 2" frog in a 10x20" enclosure? I'll use my latest pumilio enclosure as an example. It's a standard 20 high, with a 1-1.5" thick background with 3 pieces of wood protruding from the background, and a couple jutting up out of the substrate, no plants, a 1.5" layer of leaf litter, and the higher pieces of wood support a cluster of 10+ fireball bromeliads that form a canopy midway up the tank. This gives multitudes of hiding places amongst the leaf litter, the driftwood along the back of the tank, and among the bromeliads, all of which are utilized when necessary. I feel (couldn't possibly know for sure, as I'm not a frog) that the various options allow for an increased level of comfort and enrichment, beyond what could be achieved in a smaller tank such as a 10 vert. Translate this to larger frogs, especially terrestrial ones that would find little use for such a canopy, and the problem seems somewhat exacerbated.

I concede that this way of doing things is not the only way, but I feel when talking about what's BEST for the animals, that the more options that are provided to them, the better for the frogs, and perhaps even better for the keeper as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> I think that it's not a matter of making them engage in their environment, but I feel it's an important option to have available should they so choose. Small tanks do not really give that option, nor do they really give a lot of options for finding a niche to hide or get out of the way on their own, but rather be restricted to whatever hides are provided (i.e. coco huts). .


If they were suffering from an inability to engage thier enviroment then sterotypy would be noted as occurs in mammals and birds that suffer from lack of stimulation. As I noted above, sterotypy has not been reported for any anuran to date.. and there has been a lot of interest in working out things for them. Usually anurans do best with a form of benign neglect as the more thier enclosures are disrupted the greater the stress issues. 



dravenxavier said:


> Reasonably, how many options can there be for a 2" frog in a 10x20" enclosure? I'll use my latest pumilio enclosure as an example. It's a standard 20 high, with a 1-1.5" thick background with 3 pieces of wood protruding from the background, and a couple jutting up out of the substrate, no plants, a 1.5" layer of leaf litter, and the higher pieces of wood support a cluster of 10+ fireball bromeliads that form a canopy midway up the tank. This gives multitudes of hiding places amongst the leaf litter, the driftwood along the back of the tank, and among the bromeliads, all of which are utilized when necessary. I feel (couldn't possibly know for sure, as I'm not a frog) that the various options allow for an increased level of comfort and enrichment, beyond what could be achieved in a smaller tank such as a 10 vert. Translate this to larger frogs, especially terrestrial ones that would find little use for such a canopy, and the problem seems somewhat exacerbated.
> 
> I concede that this way of doing things is not the only way, but I feel when talking about what's BEST for the animals, that the more options that are provided to them, the better for the frogs, and perhaps even better for the keeper as well .


What you are looking at is simply a different phrasing for resource allocation. Pumilio and some of the other obligate egg feeders are poor examples to compare to tinctorius or other frogs in the tinctorius group or many of the Ranitomeya group. The reason for this is because in the wild, male and female pumilo have different resource needs. Males defend egg deposition sites and calling perches while females defend bromeliads that can be literally be tens of meters away vertically and/or horizontally. 

The ability to utilize resources depends on many things including how they are situated and whether or not they have to be defended against conspecifics. 

A properly set up larger enclosure will provide more resources than a smaller enclosure but the key is properly as improperly set up enclosures are going to be deficient in suitable niches. 

There are a couple of things that are a little more concrete and we can discuss them. 
The first is that a properly set up enclosure provides more niches and the possibility of more natural behaviors but this also depends on many factors including whether or not the frogs are allowed to care for the eggs and transport tadpoles. For example some behaviors can only occur when frogs are housed in groups, such as the social parasitism that occurs in R. ventrimaculatus. 

The second isn't as solid as larger enclosures allow for a greater establishment of microfauna which supplement feed the frogs allowing a more natural foraging behavior. However this has to have the following caveats applied to it.. the first is that this can also be contributing to the issues with obesity in the frogs in the hobby (which has other issues attached to it), and the second is that these feeders do not provide the supplements needed for the frogs (lack of D3 for example), which typically means more feedings to provide supplements which again contributes to obesity. Also microfauna can be supplementally added to the enclosures to make up the difference. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

bussardnr said:


> I for one don't want to think for myself. Bigger is always better.


Does this apply to possible dates?


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Ed said:


> Does this apply to possible dates?


Are you suggesting Nate likes mopeds?


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## ryan10517 (Oct 23, 2010)

ya i read the first page of this thread. not sure if i actually want to read the whole thing through. probably just another of the 1083753210 mixing debates here on the forum.... kinda sad


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Seeing as none of the tanks have a built in population of FFs I think they would starve equally quickly if left unattended.


hes not talking about ff populations in the tank. hes talking about microfauna like springs, isopods, and mites. its easier for populations of microfauna to survive in a tank thats larger than smaller tanks. for example, if i stopped feeding then the populations in my 18s would be depleted after probably a week and a half, but it would take another week to deplete my 26 gallons, and probably a month for my 75.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> What you are looking at is simply a different phrasing for resource allocation. Pumilio and some of the other obligate egg feeders are poor examples to compare to tinctorius or other frogs in the tinctorius group or many of the Ranitomeya group. The reason for this is because in the wild, male and female pumilo have different resource needs. Males defend egg deposition sites and calling perches while females defend bromeliads that can be literally be tens of meters away vertically and/or horizontally.
> 
> The ability to utilize resources depends on many things including how they are situated and whether or not they have to be defended against conspecifics.
> 
> ...


I think there are two basic ways that this should be split up. First, is for the overall benefit of the frogs. Dealing with larger enclosures, the larger number of niches and microhabitats alone, in my opinion, are worth the venture to larger tanks for these frogs. These available options are more of what I'm relating to in terms of giving the frogs more things to do and more places to be. Shaded spots, open spots, hiding spots, and so on. Personally, I feel that the more of these positive options that are available to the frogs, the better their quality of life as they are not as restricted to using one or two available hiding places, nor would the tank be as prone to problems like overgrown plants choking out usable space.

The second way to approach the subject is from the side of referring to beginners. Aside from the posturing that loves to happen here amongst more established hobbyists, this topic seems to pop up mostly with people just getting into the hobby. Starting out with a larger tank with more available niches, more available space for the establishment of microfauna, and more space to help disperse any possible aggression (since many frogs are bought as either two or a small group of juveniles which may or may not turn out to be the same sex) should give a beginner an easier time and more leeway in the care of their frogs. Using a tank that is large enough to provide various temperature and humidity microclimates and having an established microfauna can go a long way towards the ease of keeping these frogs. And I really hate to say it, but this is especially true if the new hobbyist begins losing interest, and neglecting the frogs...which I'm sure happens more than we even realize.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

thedude said:


> hes not talking about ff populations in the tank. hes talking about microfauna like springs, isopods, and mites. its easier for populations of microfauna to survive in a tank thats larger than smaller tanks. for example, if i stopped feeding then the populations in my 18s would be depleted after probably a week and a half, but it would take another week to deplete my 26 gallons, and probably a month for my 75.


Can't really see a frog as big as a tinc( and all of mine are larger morph likes Alanis and Citronella) being able to maintain proper body weight stricly on microfauna.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Dendroguy said:


> Ugh,already 7 PAGES!?!? Let's just give it a break,the OP is banned,there is no point in arguing,actually there was no point in the first place.


The OP hasn`t been banned. Other than starting this mess, he hasn`t broken any rules to justify a ban or infraction...that I could see anyway.
There actually is some useful info here.

John


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Can't really see a frog as big as a tinc( and all of mine are larger morph likes Alanis and Citronella) being able to maintain proper body weight stricly on microfauna.


When looking at these discussions.. keep in mind that unless you have been underfeeding the frogs for awhile, they will have abundent fat reserves. One has to also consider that many of the things that the hobby considers microfauna are not that small... for example many of the dwarf isopods are similar in size to fruit flies. 

With respect to the starvation comments, it takes much longer for these animals to starve as they can reduce thier metabolic demands and live off of thier fat stores for more than a week.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> I think there are two basic ways that this should be split up. First, is for the overall benefit of the frogs. Dealing with larger enclosures, the larger number of niches and microhabitats alone, in my opinion, are worth the venture to larger tanks for these frogs. These available options are more of what I'm relating to in terms of giving the frogs more things to do and more places to be. Shaded spots, open spots, hiding spots, and so on. Personally, I feel that the more of these positive options that are available to the frogs, the better their quality of life as they are not as restricted to using one or two available hiding places, nor would the tank be as prone to problems like overgrown plants choking out usable space.


As I've said all along I am an advocate for larger enclosures.. and this is a good example of what I consider valid reasons. 



dravenxavier said:


> The second way to approach the subject is from the side of referring to beginners. Aside from the posturing that loves to happen here amongst more established hobbyists, this topic seems to pop up mostly with people just getting into the hobby. Starting out with a larger tank with more available niches, more available space for the establishment of microfauna, and more space to help disperse any possible aggression (since many frogs are bought as either two or a small group of juveniles which may or may not turn out to be the same sex) should give a beginner an easier time and more leeway in the care of their frogs. Using a tank that is large enough to provide various temperature and humidity microclimates and having an established microfauna can go a long way towards the ease of keeping these frogs. And I really hate to say it, but this is especially true if the new hobbyist begins losing interest, and neglecting the frogs...which I'm sure happens more than we even realize.


This gets back to my original position that people who are recommending larger enclosures have to own the responsibility to get newer people the information on how to set up an enclosure correctly. Just telling someone that x tank is insufficient because it is too small isn't an accurate statement much less a helpful method to pass along the information. 

And to keep it clear for people, again we are considering only properly set up enclosures. 

In this thread except for a couple of side references we have been discussing pairs so aggression is not as big of a concern. 

With respect to quality of life and hobbyists losing interest, I'm not sure that hoping microfaunal presence will sustain the frogs is valid.. if they have lost interest to the point they aren't feeding them, then they probably don't have the interest to keep the enclosure moist.. 


This brings us full circle to the recommendations.. it is fine to recommend a bigger enclosure, but there is a lot of posturing about what constitutes the minimal size enclosure and that is surrounded by just as many voodoo beliefs... So we have a decades of history of tens being sufficient to meet minimal needs of the frogs at what point does the size enclosure become overly redundent (and we are talking pairs here just for continuity)?


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> As I've said all along I am an advocate for larger enclosures.. and this is a good example of what I consider valid reasons.


I hope you don't take any of this personally. I'm not coming after you with it, but rather enjoying the conversation on this.



Ed said:


> This gets back to my original position that people who are recommending larger enclosures have to own the responsibility to get newer people the information on how to set up an enclosure correctly. Just telling someone that x tank is insufficient because it is too small isn't an accurate statement much less a helpful method to pass along the information.


Understandable. So, rather than a response of "10 gallons is too small, you must have at least a 20L (or whatever)" a response of "10 gallons can sometimes work, but is generally too small...you should try for a 20L with a lot of leaf litter and some decent open space available on the ground"? Or are you referring to some other advice that should also be passed along? 




Ed said:


> With respect to quality of life and hobbyists losing interest, I'm not sure that hoping microfaunal presence will sustain the frogs is valid.. if they have lost interest to the point they aren't feeding them, then they probably don't have the interest to keep the enclosure moist..


Not really saying microfauna can sustain a frog long-term, but rather that as someone loses interest, they start skipping a day here and there...there's no immediate repercussion so they slack off a bit more...it's a situation I see all the time. At least it helps the frog maintain until the person (hopefully) realizes that it's in the best interest of the animal to find it a new home. The same note about keeping the enclosure moist is something that I was kind of alluding to, as the various niches in a larger tank give the frogs a better chance at finding a spot of suitable conditions compared to a smaller tank. That a 10 gallon can generally dry out completely more quickly than a 40 breeder (depending on various factors, of course). That there is a higher probability of there being some shadowy, moist spot that the frog can capitalize on when need be.



Ed said:


> This brings us full circle to the recommendations.. it is fine to recommend a bigger enclosure, but there is a lot of posturing about what constitutes the minimal size enclosure and that is surrounded by just as many voodoo beliefs... So we have a decades of history of tens being sufficient to meet minimal needs of the frogs at what point does the size enclosure become overly redundent (and we are talking pairs here just for continuity)?


I agree...sometimes the debate for larger enclosures becomes difficult with the long-term success of institutions using 10 gallon tanks for breeding purposes. I think I take it a bit more personally, and find myself thinking "why not do better, then?" Why settle for the minimum of what will keep the frogs healthy? What kind of real accomplishment is that? I like to think that we, as keepers of these animals, can not just meet what is required by the frogs, but exceed these needs. All completely personal bias, there, (and maybe a little pompous) but still...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> I hope you don't take any of this personally. I'm not coming after you with it, but rather enjoying the conversation on this.


Absolutely not.. I said I was hoping that a good discussion could come out of it instead of all of the unsupported dogma that is often thrown around. 




dravenxavier said:


> Understandable. So, rather than a response of "10 gallons is too small, you must have at least a 20L (or whatever)" a response of "10 gallons can sometimes work, but is generally too small...you should try for a 20L with a lot of leaf litter and some decent open space available on the ground"? Or are you referring to some other advice that should also be


That is actually a good start. Of course it has to be tailored somewhat to meet the needs of the frogs but that would actually a good start. As an example Ryan did a good example of this approach in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/pa...10-gallon-build-water-feature.html#post612978. 




dravenxavier said:


> Not really saying microfauna can sustain a frog long-term, but rather that as someone loses interest, they start skipping a day here and there...there's no immediate repercussion so they slack off a bit more...it's a situation I see all the time. At least it helps the frog maintain until the person (hopefully) realizes that it's in the best interest of the animal to find it a new home.


In my experience, if the person is slacking off on feeding they are also often slacking off on other things like adding water. The plants often don't show obvious signs of lack of water (or the substrate may be drying out and the roots down into the false bottom are sustaining the animals) before it is too dry for the frogs. When I worked in the pet trade, I've seen a lot of potato chip frogs....




dravenxavier said:


> I agree...sometimes the debate for larger enclosures becomes difficult with the long-term success of institutions using 10 gallon tanks for breeding purposes. I think I take it a bit more personally, and find myself thinking "why not do better, then?" Why settle for the minimum of what will keep the frogs healthy? What kind of real accomplishment is that? I like to think that we, as keepers of these animals, can not just meet what is required by the frogs, but exceed these needs. All completely personal bias, there, (and maybe a little pompous) but still...



Personal bias is acceptable as long as you aren't trying to ram it down someone's throat with little or no justification. As I noted above, the minimum is well established, not only by institutional but by the long history of some of the hobby. One can look in the old ADG newsletters for examples of this as well as several presentations at IHS or other conferences. If I remember correctly it is also documented in other literature like older issues of the British Herpetological Society. 

So that brings us back to at what point is larger overkill.


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

In regards to feeding small animals or else have them die of starvation, I have gone on vacation for 12 days without feeding any of my animals and when I came back they looked just as good as when I left them...oh, and that includes these guys, which a tinc could make a meal of:









I think people underestimate how long these animals can go without food and be fine.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

rollinkansas said:


> I think people underestimate how long these animals can go without food and be fine.


I think this is also the case. 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

rollinkansas said:


> In regards to feeding small animals or else have them die of starvation, I have gone on vacation for 12 days without feeding any of my animals and when I came back they looked just as good as when I left them...oh, and that includes these guys, which a tinc could make a meal of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


what is that?


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> So that brings us back to at what point is larger overkill.


Is there such a thing? I think it should be a bit more refined to "at what point is a standard recommendation of tank size overkill?"

Personally, my favorite size is the 20L/29 as far as floor space is concerned. Well, my absolute favorite is the 40B, but that may indeed be overkill.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Enlightened Rogue said:


> The OP hasn`t been banned. Other than starting this mess, he hasn`t broken any rules to justify a ban or infraction...that I could see anyway.
> There actually is some useful info here.
> 
> John


oh,I thought he sent 'unruly' pms to some members on here,my bad (by the way I like your signature)


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> what is that?


That would be a dime. It represents 10 cents of value in American currency.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> what is that?


Sphaerodactylus of some form or another there are about 40 plus species found in Central and South America and they can be a bear to key out.

Sphaerodactylus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## rollinkansas (Jun 9, 2008)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> what is that?


That is an adult Sphaerodactylus nicholsi, one of the smallest geckos in the world.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

> This gets back to my original position that people who are recommending larger enclosures have to own the responsibility to get newer people the information on how to set up an enclosure correctly. Just telling someone that x tank is insufficient because it is too small isn't an accurate statement much less a helpful method to pass along the information.


It seems like that would be even more important for those that are OK right off the bat for 10gs for new hobbyest to get that info for them as well right? 

I mean it seems that the smaller the tank/viv the more important it is to build it correctly from the get go where as a larger viv there is a bit more wiggle room.


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

Food for thought..................If it works it isn't broke. 

If someone is successful with a method other than your own, it isn't wrong. Just different.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

I think the idea (at least where I was trying to steer it) isn't necessarily about right/wrong, but rather trying to do better. Trying to improve. Also touching on what methods would make it easier for those just getting into it...whether it be a small tank or large tank, weighing the various options and pros/cons attributed to each.

It may work...but is it the best? Can we do better? Is it the best way for someone who is new to dart frogs to start off? But not really "no, you're doing it wrong!"


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## Scott Richardson (Dec 23, 2010)

I respect that. 

My comment was more to the bash on Richard. Richard and I disagree on some topics, but he has success with 10s, which were the standard not long ago, so what is wrong with it. 

As for new people, it is more about design than size. but I see where you are going.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> Is there such a thing? I think it should be a bit more refined to "at what point is a standard recommendation of tank size overkill?"
> 
> Personally, my favorite size is the 20L/29 as far as floor space is concerned. Well, my absolute favorite is the 40B, but that may indeed be overkill.


 
There is a personal opinion element in it (as with many things in the hobby) but one of the reasons I brought it up is because it could easily be used as a method of elitism. Tens were commonly used in past in part due to thier cost and availability. We have in this thread seen recommendations that 40 gallons is the lowest that should be recommended... This is a significant investment compared to a ten gallon aquarium as locally I can get brand new tens for $8-12 while the normal price for 40 gallon breeders runs $114. Almost a ten fold difference in price. 

I'm inclined to lean towards a 40 breeder being the upper limit for a pair of tinctorius frogs and may depending on how it is set up for a small group of frogs (as at one point, groups of tinctorius, auratus or other tinctorious groups were decided on based on 5 gallons/frog.. I'm not ready to go that far..) Is there really that much benefit to a 29 or 30 gallon over a 20 long as your increasing height and not floor space? For example aren't 20 longs close to 12 by 30 by 13 while 30s are close to close to 12 by 30 by 19 (slight variations between brands is why I've rounded numbers). The height allows for some taller plants but the trade off in accessing them in a rack set-up for maintence is a pain in the neck trade off.. 


Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Scott Richardson said:


> I respect that.
> 
> My comment was more to the bash on Richard. Richard and I disagree on some topics, but he has success with 10s, which were the standard not long ago, so what is wrong with it.
> 
> As for new people, it is more about design than size. but I see where you are going.


It is still the standard for some institutions and hobbyists.


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Ed said:


> I'm inclined to lean towards a 40 breeder being the upper limit for a pair of tinctorius frogs and may depending on how it is set up for a small group of frogs (as at one point, groups of tinctorius, auratus or other tinctorious groups were decided on based on 5 gallons/frog.. I'm not ready to go that far..) Is there really that much benefit to a 29 or 30 gallon over a 20 long as your increasing height and not floor space? For example aren't 20 longs close to 12 by 30 by 13 while 30s are close to close to 12 by 30 by 19 (slight variations between brands is why I've rounded numbers). The height allows for some taller plants but the trade off in accessing them in a rack set-up for maintence is a pain in the neck trade off..
> 
> 
> Ed



As for dimensions, I've noticed that the standard 30 has become something of a specialty around here. I forget the height, but the footprint was 36 x 12. Yes, the 20 long and 29 have the same footprint. My inclusion of both was pretty much offering them both up as equally good choices. However, I'm inclined to feel the 29 gallon may be slightly superior, as it (as you said) opens up plant options (a big part of this hobby, after all) and MAY help give a cooler temperature as you reach the bottom of the tank...important to note given the recent number of threads concerning overheating. Though as noted, that height can also be a down side.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> As for dimensions, I've noticed that the standard 30 has become something of a specialty around here. I forget the height, but the footprint was 36 x 12. Yes, the 20 long and 29 have the same footprint. My inclusion of both was pretty much offering them both up as equally good choices. However, I'm inclined to feel the 29 gallon may be slightly superior, as it (as you said) opens up plant options (a big part of this hobby, after all) and MAY help give a cooler temperature as you reach the bottom of the tank...important to note given the recent number of threads concerning overheating. Though as noted, that height can also be a down side.


A lot of the problems with overheating may in some part be due to the twin practices of high light to maximize plant selection and availability and sealing the tank to maximize humidity. This results in a lack of methods to vent the heat from the tanks. In addition, in rack style setups you also have a heat source warming the bottom of the tanks as well. 

So given the husbandry practices is a taller tank really a cure or just a placebo? 

Ed


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## Jellyman (Mar 6, 2006)

Question about humidity:
Even though the humidity where the frogs are is very high is this really ideal for the frogs? or can a lower humidity possibly be more beneficial?

I personally only keep the humidity around 70-75%. This helps keep the glass from fogging up and if I measure the humidty closer to the soil it is usually around 80-85% anyway.

Any thoughts?


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

Jellyman said:


> Question about humidity:
> Even though the humidity where the frogs are is very high is this really ideal for the frogs? or can a lower humidity possibly be more beneficial?
> 
> I personally only keep the humidity around 70-75%. This helps keep the glass from fogging up and if I measure the humidty closer to the soil it is usually around 80-85% anyway.
> ...


Benefical? Yes and No, it would give them a break with breeding, causing less stress... but might dry them out too much if it's too dry...


A good friend of mine stops misting completely in the winter for her Mantella and anthonyi, throws on a screen lid, and just uses the pond in the tank to keep humidity...then once spring hits, she puts the glass back on, and starts misting again, and she gets eggs within a week...

she says this keeps them breeding longer, and healthier, resulting in healthier tads, and froglets...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are multiple reasons to be suspicious of too little ventilation. Personally for the last 20 plus years I've tended to provide good ventilation and watch the behaviors of the frogs. It is easier to reduce ventilation if you have too much than to attempt to add ventilation in a sealed up enclosure. 

Ed


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## Paul (Nov 15, 2007)

just shy clear of these topics...better to talk about religion, abortion, etc... less headaches!


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## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

Paul said:


> just shy clear of these topics...better to talk about religion, abortion, etc... less headaches!


Actually I'd like to think that, while not exactly related to mixing species (but can be...) we made some pretty good discussion these last couple of pages.


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