# Atelopus hoogmoedi divergence - what is being imported?



## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I'd like to start a discussion of the recent (last few years) imports of Atelopus hoogmoedi from Surinam. As many of you are aware, we have seen yellow/black reticulated, white/black reticulated, and a mix of the two phenotypes be imported. Despite these phenotypic variations, among the 50 or so that I've seen in person there appear to be certain consistent attributes that mirror the data in the literature (Lotters et al). These include size and call. 

However, in contrast to the above imports, I received a trio of very distinct Atelopus sp. that appeared to be a mixed ratio but have all vocalized. These came in with the normal A. hoogmoedi phenotype but diverge greatly in size, body shape, call, and behavior based on my general observations. Ive spoken to S. Lotters and he said that they are likely from another A. hoogmoedi population. However, now that my larger group is in their temp setup, I've caught a few male members of the standard phenotype in amplexus with male members of the unknown phenotype. Its all a little funny and amusing (seeing both males calling while in amplexus) but more seriously it raises my earlier suspicions that my trio may not necessarily be A. hoogmoedi. 

In any case, Im open to constructive thoughts on the matter.

And without further ado, the photos..

male/male



























Male Unknown phenotype


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Additional photos here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/toads/79689-new-atelopus-sp.html


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## JRoe (Jan 24, 2012)

This is just my opinion, but I may be wrong. I believe your frogs are different subspecies. A. S. Hoogmoedi and And A. S. ?

Another opinion that may be wrong. I think the "mint" colored hoogmoedi may be the nominate species spumarius.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Did you hear about the purple hoogmoedi that went to the EU and lost their color after a few months? I heard it from someone but can't find the account.


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## JRoe (Jan 24, 2012)

Strange. I thought the purple ones were described as another subspecies. If they just fade to normal, maybe that population is just eating some strange bugs.  Much like how darts lose their toxin in captivity.


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

So they all turned out to be Male? Those were the animals I sent correct?


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Yeah, though I don't fault you at all. If I had to guess I would have said they were a 1.2 by body shape/size. However, all three call like crazy. It's a very distinct, really nice bird whistle, as opposed to the other slower croak that the hoogmoedi use.


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## JRoe (Jan 24, 2012)

Eric you should import more of those.


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## EricIvins (Jan 4, 2010)

Those animals came from a different Exporter than who I usually deal with. They are different, but that is about all I can say. I don't know where they came from, or if more of that type will be brought in. I though for sure that there were at least one Female in that group......


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I believe that a bunch went to Canada but arrived DOA. Otherwise, I haven't heard or seen photos of any similar ones. 

That said, this group is doing spectacular. They are eating and calling machines.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

If they have a very different call you can bet your bottom dollar they are different species. That's about all I can offer in insight.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

That has been my thinking. I'm going to record and obtain some software to analyze.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

How similar in age are the 2 males pictured? The yellow is by far the more robust and larger example. Thank you for sharing your findings and allowing us all to be a part of the process.

JBear


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

All WC, and all adult size based on comparisons among a larger sample population (as well as the literature). Might just need to take some samples when they die and have them sequenced.


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## JRoe (Jan 24, 2012)

Please post some recordings of your Atelopus stemcelli's calls.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

From a fellow that does a lot of work in Suriname in response to whether he has seen this population:

"No I haven't and I've been throughout much of the country a number of times. I've only encountered A. spumarius hoogmoedi, A. spumarius barbotini and A. flavescens. This is a very interesting Atelopid."


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

stemcellular said:


> All WC, and all adult size based on comparisons among a larger sample population (as well as the literature). Might just need to take some samples when they die and have them sequenced.


You don't have to wait- have a vet remove a toe tip. Or talk to your favorite amphibian systematist about using an egg, or maybe even fecal sample. If you do wait, they have to go into ethanol or another DNA buffer immediately.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Yeah, I have a friend in the genomics lab that might be able to swing some sequencing. Also, might try to have someone in the morphology lab take a look. I'm bringing home the nice video camera this weekend so will hopefully get some really good clips and calls for analysis.


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## Afemoralis (Mar 17, 2005)

Taking a quick look at Genbank, there are some 42 sequences for A. hoogmoedi from a few different gene regions. This means you'll have access to comparison material even without hitting up researchers for more information. Pretty straightforward project.


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