# Oophaga histrionicus



## FlyingPollock (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi guys and gals,

I've been trying to track down Oophaga histrionicus for...ever. Does anyone know a breeder or a link, or an ancient scroll that will lead me to them.
Thanks everybody


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

If your looking to buy, your SOL. Very few people have them and the ones who do won't sell them for unless you have a few thousand dollars ($5000+). Here is an article on them. www.DendroBase.de

D


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

That is incorrect. Understory Enterprise, has worked hard to import Histos. He is also trying to get more localities into the hobby. He charges 500 dollars a frog and they are legal imports.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

500 dollars is a good deal for them!


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Understory brings in Sylvaticas legally through WIKRI, Histos might start coming in legally again in the next 2-3 years from Colombia through the efforts of some good dedicated ppl like Mark Pepper.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Take a look at this site: Frogs.


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## FlyingPollock (Jan 30, 2012)

I checked understory and they don't seem to have any listed, I'll send an email to be sure, thanks. It's really a shame that these frogs are so rare in the hobby considering their coloration and patterns, lol, I mean have you SEEN the red morph, I'm drooling.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

The problem is that these frogs live in "dangerous" places! (Narcos. ..)


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

FlyingPollock said:


> I checked understory and they don't seem to have any listed, I'll send an email to be sure, thanks. It's really a shame that these frogs are so rare in the hobby considering their coloration and patterns, lol, I mean have you SEEN the red morph, I'm drooling.


All the Paru sylvaticas in the hobby are coming from Understory, however there is a wait list, so you wont see them listed on their site. you are better off calling them.


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

FlyingPollock said:


> Hi guys and gals,
> 
> or an ancient scroll that will lead me to them.


The ancient scroll probably wouldn't be found in the "beginner" section...


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

VenomR00 said:


> That is incorrect. Understory Enterprise, has worked hard to import Histos. He is also trying to get more localities into the hobby. He charges 500 dollars a frog and they are legal imports.


WOOOOAAAAAAH, really?!?!

D


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It's possible this thread didn't start there either.

s


oneshot said:


> The ancient scroll probably wouldn't be found in the "beginner" section...


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Julio said:


> All the Paru sylvaticas in the hobby are coming from Understory, however there is a wait list, so you wont see them listed on their site. you are better off calling them.


It is not accurate to say that all the paru in the hobby are coming from Understory. There were paru in the US before Understory started selling them, and they are still around. Although, I would agree that most of the Paru that are floating around are from Understory.

Sylvatica and Histrionica are both from the Oophaga genus but they are classified as difference species. The hobby seems to use the two species names interchangeably sometimes, but they are different. 

If the op asking specifically about histrionica, they are around but hard to come by. If sylvatica are of interest, they are a bit easier to come by. 

Brad


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

The 5,000 figure is WAY off the mark. I kept Histo's back in the 90's when they were a $50.00 frog and coming in on legal imports. When I got back into the hobby last year, I did alot researching, contacting, and putting feelers out, trying to find out who still had them, whether they were breeding, and if they were willing to sell to me, and for how much. First, understand, do not PM asking WHO these people are. These contacts were hard one, and confidential. I don't think they want their info out there, nor every yahoo contactign them about price and availablility. Primary concern for each one was the same. (1) What quaifies you to keep, breed care for and reproduce these frogs. (2) Next of course was price, and yes, not cheap. Average price was 1200 to 1500 per frog. There was one crazy wanting 3750 per frog, but thats never going to happen, at least not from my bank account. 2/3 of these individuals were on the board, the others not. Owning Histo's or Lehmani is sort of like belonging to a secret underground club. Your not going to get in without the secret password. While I'm exagerating a little, theres truth in it. While money talks, these individuals do not want to pass on their (few and far between) offspring to someone who will be ill equipped to care for them experience wise, and risk killing them. For those with the experience, money and contacts, they ARE out there.


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## FlyingPollock (Jan 30, 2012)

oneshot said:


> The ancient scroll probably wouldn't be found in the "beginner" section...


Um, this isn't the beginner section friendo...


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

actually its in the beginner discussion

Just asking, do you keep any pumilio or thumbs?


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## mtndendros (Feb 10, 2012)

pdfCrazy said:


> Owning Histo's or Lehmani is sort of like belonging to a secret underground club. Your not going to get in without the secret password. While I'm exagerating a little, theres truth in it. While money talks, these individuals do not want to pass on their (few and far between) offspring to someone who will be ill equipped to care for them experience wise, and risk killing them. For those with the experience, money and contacts, they ARE out there.


The first frog I fell for was in a picture of a blue histo on a breeders website. When I inquired, I was politely told to "fuhget about it". Lol 

As a newbie, I slunk away and decided to wait for a more experienced day, when I have the secret password.


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## FlyingPollock (Jan 30, 2012)

vivlover10 said:


> actually its in the beginner discussion
> 
> Just asking, do you keep any pumilio or thumbs?


Lol, it is in beginner section, whoops. ANYWAY, yes I keep R. Fantastica, 'tarapoto' imitators, and variabilis no Oophagus yet though.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

If you want to get the experienced aspect down I would start trying out oophaga. Not that they are any harder to keep than fants care wise but they are much harder to breed and to raise frolets due to their size.


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Sorry that was my mistake. I always get histo's and slyvatica mixed up. But to my knowledge UE is currently working on getting more Slyvatica into the hobby. I did hear from an unnamed source that there is more of an effort to bring histo's back in legally but I don't feel that is was a worthy enough source. Reason I say this is mainly because they were also trying to establish a way to bring in some tincs from brazil.

Will see though, since I know there are some individuals that are as dedicated as Mark Pepper out there I don't see it completely infeasible.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

rigel10 posted a link on the first page to the Tesoro de Colombia (a UE affiliate) website that says that they are working with histo's and hope to be exporting them soon.

But, there is a big difference in working with histo's and producing enough to export them in any numbers.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You likely mean the "more available" oophaga (pumilio), since his whole post is inquiring about histos (which are oophaga).

s


vivlover10 said:


> If you want to get the experienced aspect down I would start trying out oophaga. Not that they are any harder to keep than fants care wise but they are much harder to breed and to raise frolets due to their size.


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## vivlover10 (Oct 10, 2010)

Yes that is what I meant Scott.


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

Not to be the negative guy in the room, but this post has likely set you back a good ways in your quest to find large obligates. In very few words you have demonstrated the lack of experience / resources necessary to handle these animals effectively. I understand it is not for lack of enthusiasm, and that should always be championed, but this is one of those situations where if you don't already know the answer to the question you are asking, you are not ready to be asking it...

Again, I don't mean to dissuade natural curiosity about these animals, but this type of inquiry does nothing to further your cause. Those with the animals you seek, if they have seen this thread, are extremely unlikely to view you as a viable candidate for keeping large obligates.

Nothing personal. Just passing on information for you to consider.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I agree with all of you. But the initial question was to track down Oophaga histrionica. You need a lot of experience to raise these frogs (as well as sylvatica), which are not for all froggers, especially beginners. For myself, I'm happy of the most common pumilio I breed. Greetings


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## A&MGecko (Sep 17, 2010)

rigel10 said:


> I agree with all of you. But the initial question was to track down Oophaga histrionica. You need a lot of experience to raise these frogs (as well as sylvatica), which are not for all froggers, especially beginners. For myself, I'm happy of the most common pumilio I breed. Greetings


This is a concept I disagree with and a concept completely different that what happens in the gecko world as I remember it. I have over 15 years experience breeding geckos of all sort, I breed some of the most rare and south after animals having absolutely no experience with them. I am not trying to be tacky, but in my experience is all about how much information and money are you willing to invest in your hobby and how much information the breeders are willing to share. For an unfortunate allergy I developed to feeders insects like mealworms and crickets I had to sell out my gecko business/hobby and I started my venture in the PDF world. Before I even started I visited as many breeders as I could around my area to get as much info as possible and also to see in which direction I wanted to start my new adventure. I decide that oophaga was going to be my way because I didn't really want to deal with the raising of the tadpoles to save most of my time for the enjoyment of the frogs. As of now I have been working with oophaga for around 2 years or a bit more and even tho I was suggested not to start with egg feeders I was confident I had gathered enough info to be successful. As fact now I can say I been able to breed every species of oophaga I owned. When I was given the opportunity to try for the sylvatica, thanks to Mark of UE, I got my group of animals and I am very confident I will be able to breed those as well. You see, I am in love now with these large egg feeders but I have no opportunity to get any others because I don't know the right people or because I am considered a noob. I tell you that much, if any seller/breeder of these frogs will be willing to share enough info about them to the buyer there are a lot of people out there that are willing to build just the right tank for them and have the budget to do it properly. The only way for people to gain experience is to actually work with the animals, so my strategy when I was selling rare animals to people whom had no experience was actually talking to them over the phone and check if they were willing to get all the right equipment for the animals need. I was more then willing to share every possible information about the animals and wanted to see more and more people interested in it. I had never cut of a "noob" just because.
Just my 2 cents on the whole situation about these.
Alberto


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

A&MGecko said:


> This is a concept I disagree with and a concept completely different that what happens in the gecko world as I remember it. I have over 15 years experience breeding geckos of all sort, I breed some of the most rare and south after animals having absolutely no experience with them. I am not trying to be tacky, but in my experience is all about how much information and money are you willing to invest in your hobby and how much information the breeders are willing to share. For an unfortunate allergy I developed to feeders insects like mealworms and crickets I had to sell out my gecko business/hobby and I started my venture in the PDF world. Before I even started I visited as many breeders as I could around my area to get as much info as possible and also to see in which direction I wanted to start my new adventure. I decide that oophaga was going to be my way because I didn't really want to deal with the raising of the tadpoles to save most of my time for the enjoyment of the frogs. As of now I have been working with oophaga for around 2 years or a bit more and even tho I was suggested not to start with egg feeders I was confident I had gathered enough info to be successful. As fact now I can say I been able to breed every species of oophaga I owned. When I was given the opportunity to try for the sylvatica, thanks to Mark of UE, I got my group of animals and I am very confident I will be able to breed those as well. You see, I am in love now with these large egg feeders but I have no opportunity to get any others because I don't know the right people or because I am considered a noob. I tell you that much, if any seller/breeder of these frogs will be willing to share enough info about them to the buyer there are a lot of people out there that are willing to build just the right tank for them and have the budget to do it properly. The only way for people to gain experience is to actually work with the animals, so my strategy when I was selling rare animals to people whom had no experience was actually talking to them over the phone and check if they were willing to get all the right equipment for the animals need. I was more then willing to share every possible information about the animals and wanted to see more and more people interested in it. I had never cut of a "noob" just because.
> Just my 2 cents on the whole situation about these.
> Alberto


I kinda agree with these sentiments. I think we make these things out to be much harder then they are, but there are some people who come into the hobby really green and not of the type to really delve into the forums/books and do the research, and some people just aren't...I don't know the word, "handy" or something as others. There are people that pick this stuff up like it is second nature to them and others that really somehow struggle with basic husbandry, viv construction and frog/tad care....and really green people that don't have any buisness with some of the rarer frogs.

So a few points to consider...

You've got a ton of experience in the herp hobby...and while darts aren't geckos, there are certainly enough parallels to make getting into darts for you much easier then say someone who had a fishtank when they were 12.

I think a lot of us also want to see the first imports and f1-f3 batches of frogs go to the more experienced people...because if that isn't us, or we can't afford them at that time...we want them to still be in the hobby later so we and everyone else can have the chance to enjoy them. I know it was probably a mistake for me to pick up 2 black bassleri when they were new...was all I could afford and I had new frog fever....then I lost them. Luckily other people invested more in them and got them fairly established in the hobby. I also lost my little colony of L. Williamsi geckos...the first 2 just to new import stress/health stuff I think, but then 1 I think to stress caused by the other animals and I wasn't been attentive enough and should seperated them, and the last 2 to heating/air issues. So I bought some space heaters and second ac unit just in case. But I screwed up with both these species, so now I feel like I really owe them...and the hobby.

So while you may have the occasional person who is a frog prodigy...and really most people who have breed a few of the easier species that would be ok with most frogs...I'd rather see them go to the most experienced, most successful keepers first...and frankly I'm not even sure that is me because I went through some periods where I didn't neglect my small collection but wasn't as attentive as I usually would be and lost an animal or 2 that may not have been necessary. So between that and my financial situation you aren't likely to see me jumping on new imports/rare frogs any time soon. I've wanted Benedicta for so long


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## A&MGecko (Sep 17, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> I kinda agree with these sentiments. I think we make these things out to be much harder then they are, but there are some people who come into the hobby really green and not of the type to really delve into the forums/books and do the research, and some people just aren't...I don't know the word, "handy" or something as others. There are people that pick this stuff up like it is second nature to them and others that really somehow struggle with basic husbandry, viv construction and frog/tad care....and really green people that don't have any buisness with some of the rarer frogs.
> 
> So a few points to consider...
> 
> ...


I agree on the first part, yes there are some people more capable then others, hence the responsibility from the seller to communicate with a potential buyer and understand what his/her potentials are instead of just going, have you bred some of these before? No? OK you not good for it. Hence why I absolutely do not agree with your second part, you get me (I am sure there are others like me out there) an F1 or 2 or 3 of anything I want, share informations and I assure you that those animals will be treated and have the same potentials in my hand then another more "expert" breeder. Just FYI, I bought some more rare oophaga from a breeder which I paid the airline ticket to come to my house to make sure I am setting them up right, and I will pay one more time to have him come to my house when my tanks are ready to delivery the animals and make sure my set up have been done the right way, I go as far as possible to assure the health of my animals and I am not afraid to take any challenges that come my way. So far I have lost only 1 frog, do not want to make another long story, but it wasn't my fault, I had got wrong information from the breeder I bought the animals from. Again, not trying to sound tacky but I am confident that given the opportunity and information I can do as well as an expert and in contrary to what you said, if I see any new imports I am interested in I will jump all over it. Financial situation permitting of course.
Alberto


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

So, once again, I admire the passion for the animals being discussed here. It really does seem that your head / heart is in the right place. That said, the situation in the hobby as it relates to these types of animals is exactly the way it is for good reason. "Establishing" and animal in captivity goes FAR beyond just having a bunch of passionate people with the supposed experience to breed "any dart frog in existence". Recent imports aside, the people who have kept Sylvaticus and Histrionicus going in this hobby since their countries of origin essentially shut down exports have done so meticulously and quietly. If you don't know them / how to contact them / experience keeping oophaga, you are being excluded for a reason.

Again, recent imports excluded, this is not about "having enough money". Why would a stranger that treasures these animals enough NOT to publicly post ego-boost pictures of them every other day, send offspring to someone they don't know? Why would they EVER send such animals to a person who posts on forums openly seeking them? What exactly do you think prior experience with herbs entitles you to? 

Finally, and I think this point needs to be restated, if you truly "love" these animals, you must understand that you are not simply acquiring them in a vacuum. Your goal, if you truly are passionate about these animals, should be sustainability. Inbreeding your own offsping in the garage does nothing positive for the population as a whole. If you are unwilling to make the connections necessary to be in it for the long haul, you are making a profound statement as to your true motivations. For the record, there is no shame in honestly believing such an expectation is beyond your means.

Please understand I am not accusing the OP or any others of mal-intent. I am simply highlighting that there is a way to go about this endeavor if you are legitimately willing to commit. This is not that way.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

A&MGecko said:


> I agree on the first part, yes there are some people more capable then others, hence the responsibility from the seller to communicate with a potential buyer and understand what his/her potentials are instead of just going, have you bred some of these before? No? OK you not good for it. Hence why I absolutely do not agree with your second part, you get me (I am sure there are others like me out there) an F1 or 2 or 3 of anything I want, share informations and I assure you that those animals will be treated and have the same potentials in my hand then another more "expert" breeder. Just FYI, I bought some more rare oophaga from a breeder which I paid the airline ticket to come to my house to make sure I am setting them up right, and I will pay one more time to have him come to my house when my tanks are ready to delivery the animals and make sure my set up have been done the right way, I go as far as possible to assure the health of my animals and I am not afraid to take any challenges that come my way. So far I have lost only 1 frog, do not want to make another long story, but it wasn't my fault, I had got wrong information from the breeder I bought the animals from. Again, not trying to sound tacky but I am confident that given the opportunity and information I can do as well as an expert and in contrary to what you said, if I see any new imports I am interested in I will jump all over it. Financial situation permitting of course.
> Alberto


Well that all points to you being an exception rather then the rule with a lot of keepers. Your past experience helps make that so. I would be much more comfortable selling to you, or having you be one of the first to get new imports or f1-3 offspring...

My basic point was many people don't have that past experience to help them, nor do they have that kind of commitment to ensure success right from the start. You've negated much of the "trial and error" period that many new dart keepers have to go through with your past experience and your personality/general level of competency 

I agree that people like you would likely be just as successful with any frog as just about anyone else all other things being equal. Maybe more experienced dart people would get results a little faster, and have a few tricks up their sleeves but chances are you'd have similar ones with all that gecko experience.

And...
Super frog expert may get a group that just won't breed much or at all when you do everything right...and new kid on the block may get a pair of horny toads that can't keep their hands off each other and breed like rabbits...My points were all about maximizing the chances for success for the benefit of all in the hobby by making sure the frogs become established. Experienced dart breeders, then people like you are probably the best for that...everyone else may or may not do as well but the odds are more against them, to the point where maybe for the benefit of all it is best if they hold off for awhile and earn their merit badges with more common stuff.


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## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

I always try to stay out of these kinds of conversations. They can easily become heated or misunderstood. Text is permanent and might not always come across as intended. However, I’ll chime in as a keeper to some of these rare frogs in question and as one of the few that have posted sylvatica for sale on Dendroboard. 

I came into the hobby only a few years ago never having kept any dart frogs before. I had a pixie frog, Igor was his name, who I greatly loved. I also had a great deal of animal experience and a great passion for all animals. I kept and breed rare goats as well as some normal chickens and other foul. 

Like many, I fell in love with dart frogs, especially Oophagas. I had no question in my mind that I could provide adequate care for a rare frog, nonetheless breed them. Finding these were more difficult. As depicted in this thread, most people holding these frogs are very very protective of them. I respect this and understand it. We all want these rear and hard to breed frogs to have longevity in the hobby. I too agree they need to be cherished.

I’ve acquired a very respectable collection and have done very well with them. I don’t post much about them, as most people do not as there is sort of a stigma about it. A stigmas especially because some people frown upon someone like myself who may have only been around for a few years to have such frogs. I protest that the length of time being in the hobby is not reflective of the ability to care for and breed rare frogs or common frogs. 

As with any living thing, life is delicate. There are losses under any circumstance. Sometimes they are avoidable, sometimes they are not. To me, it is a tragedy to find a frog that has perished, regardless of its monetary value. I do however feel that the hobby is impacted greater when the loss is of a frog that has a hobby population of 5 verses a frog that has a hobby population of 2,000. This is why the frogs are so protected and why they remain so protect.

With all of that said, it is difficult to judge someone’s ability to care for such frogs. Just because they are already doing it does not mean they are good at it nor does it mean they are responsible. There are financial risks associated to a $50 and to a $1,000 frog. Someone who is willing to take the higher risk isn’t necessarily the person who will take the best care and have the best success breeding. 

My conclusion is that if you’re new to frogs, we welcome you and encourage you to learn on more common frogs. However, I for one will not assume someone is not qualified only because they are relatively new.

Those are my thoughts, I welcome yours.

Brad


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## A&MGecko (Sep 17, 2010)

Dendro Dave said:


> Well that all points to you being an exception rather then the rule with a lot of keepers. Your past experience helps make that so. I would be much more comfortable selling to you, or having you be one of the first to get new imports or f1-3 offspring...
> 
> My basic point was many people don't have that past experience to help them, nor do they have that kind of commitment to ensure success right from the start. You've negated much of the "trial and error" period that many new dart keepers have to go through with your past experience and your personality/general level of competency
> 
> ...


I agree with you, of course people that commit to something like I do from the get go are not many but being a noob doesn't mean you not capable from the get go even tho in most cases is true. This world (PDF) is definitely opposite then the one I was in before. When I was doing geckos mostly anyone that had rare animals will show them off on forums and share informations on how to better ourself in the husbandry, I never neglect to answer an email even if I knew it was a little kid possible wasting my time, but I always thought that little kid could be the future me, so I always took my time to answer any questions. In the PDF world, looks like the more rare stuff you have the more underground you go, I do not understand this part of creating a "secret society" about them. I was always proud of my "kids" and was always willing to show them off, that has nothing to do with ego. I guess I got to learn how to get access to this secret society, so maybe I should keep my mouth shot on the forums and hope one day someone will read my mind and shoot me an email with good news, lol. The only way I know to let people know what I am about is by talking about it. I understand all the protection around the rare animals and the selectiveness on choosing a buyer to ensure their longevity in captivity, I do not understand the secrecy around them. But I learn fast and I will stay out of these conversations.
Alberto


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## brad0608 (Jun 5, 2012)

Although I have paid hundreds for groups of frogs. I dont have grannies, histos or slyvies because I've not got to the point of shelling out over a thousand bucks on a group of frogs that I don't know all the details on ventilation and temperatures that they need. When I could pick up a nice AR 15 for the same price and I know "that" is not gonna die. Maybe two conflicting hobbies or I'm broker than most, not sure which.
I don't know if it's a good thing or bad that there is such smoke and mirrors around these species. I do think that once you have the experience you will have the connections, once you have the connections, these frogs will find you not the other way around. But, that's just my experience. Get some blue jeans and black jeans going, the people producing those will get you closer. 
I'm sure one day I'll work with these species but not today and not tomorrow. Unless some has some cuapos grannies for 100 bucks each


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

I did not mean to suggest you stay away from anything, my friend. I was just trying to help. If you are truly interested in these animals, they are out there. You will not access them via forums. It is just a different culture than geckos. The grey-area legalities alone push people away from public forums.

Behaviorly speaking, there is very little difference between the glut of pumilio coming into the country and the other oophaga. If it is the life-cycle you enjoy, there are plenty of opportunities in that arena that are far easier to come by. 

Anyway, good luck! It was not my intention to be a downer. I am just sharing some of my experience in an attempt to help.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

A&MGecko said:


> I agree with you, of course people that commit to something like I do from the get go are not many but being a noob doesn't mean you not capable from the get go even tho in most cases is true. This world (PDF) is definitely opposite then the one I was in before. When I was doing geckos mostly anyone that had rare animals will show them off on forums and share informations on how to better ourself in the husbandry, I never neglect to answer an email even if I knew it was a little kid possible wasting my time, but I always thought that little kid could be the future me, so I always took my time to answer any questions. In the PDF world, looks like the more rare stuff you have the more underground you go, I do not understand this part of creating a "secret society" about them. I was always proud of my "kids" and was always willing to show them off, that has nothing to do with ego. I guess I got to learn how to get access to this secret society, so maybe I should keep my mouth shot on the forums and hope one day someone will read my mind and shoot me an email with good news, lol. The only way I know to let people know what I am about is by talking about it. I understand all the protection around the rare animals and the selectiveness on choosing a buyer to ensure their longevity in captivity, I do not understand the secrecy around them. But I learn fast and I will stay out of these conversations.
> Alberto


Ya that is all true, and I agree it is unfortunate. When I had my darklands pumilio I was one of a relatively small number who had them at that time when Tuss and Frye were about the only suppliers of them that were public about it (though I was definitely not one of the first to have them) and they were all the rage as rare frogs, and it was fairly rare for most to talk to much about having them... And there is still that mentality that if you post your new rare frog your bragging or something...which I think is kinda BS...I mean ya there are people like that, that kinda wanna rub it in everyone's face but it is fairly rare and I think people deserve the benefit of the doubt. I wanted to post more about them then I did, but frankly I was afraid I was going to get jumped on by the community, or some would take it wrong...I was even advised by a few that If I got them I should probably keep it quiet. 

Really the only reason I find it kinda understandable is once you are known to have something rare you inevitably have to field requests for them, "Put me on the list!!!"  etc..etc... Which can get a little bothersome at times..,but I've been guilty of making those requests too...though I had at least a couple years in the hobby and was known by many. And I think that is one thing for people who may think about asking for rare frogs to consider... If no one knows who you are you aren't likely to get them, but if you PM/email people all the time asking for them then your adding to/motivating that secrecy by annoying them into it  

Some people don't deal with that kinda thing all that well, while others might not mind...Like my fox... I pimp poor Echo on this board and everywhere else every chance I get ...but I also try to answer everyone's questions and address the difficulties of keeping an exotic like her. Am I a bragging or do I just love having a Fox? Both suckas!!!!!  ...? (Kidding...mostly, LOL) 

I don't think it is as bad now as it was. More people seem willing to talk about what they have. There was a time when if something like benedicta was imported just once or twice, the people who got them would just disappear off the face of the earth, occasionally surfacing like international froggers of mystery or something 

As the hobby grows more and more people are willing to come out of the closet with the rare frogs...ironic since there are now more people to PM them...but there is still a few intersecting/kinda secretive inner circles trading lehmanni, histos etc... It would be nice if they shared more info if not the actual frogs themselves with the larger community. I get wanting the make sure they go to the best keepers but at least tell us about your experiences with them and how it is progressing.

Some of it too is that those guys have been around for a long time, and many of them have forum burnout...and pretty much keep to themselves and their circle of frogger friends because they've done the forums, answered all the questions a million times etc..etc... Maybe in person it is different, easier to endure/enjoy that aspect...but online not everyone can hang year after year after year. That's one reason I was kinda a ghost for a year or 2...forum burnout...plus I wasn't keeping many frogs/doing anything new so nothing for me to do but field the same questions I'd been fielding for a few years, over and over. 

I think it is all getting better though....slowly.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

brad0608 said:


> Although I have paid hundreds for groups of frogs. I dont have grannies, histos or slyvies because I've not got to the point of shelling out over a thousand bucks on a group of frogs that I don't know all the details on ventilation and temperatures that they need. When I could pick up a nice AR 15 for the same price and I know "that" is not gonna die. Maybe two conflicting hobbies or I'm broker than most, not sure which.
> I don't know if it's a good thing or bad that there is such smoke and mirrors around these species. I do think that once you have the experience you will have the connections, once you have the connections, these frogs will find you not the other way around. But, that's just my experience. Get some blue jeans and black jeans going, the people producing those will get you closer.
> I'm sure one day I'll work with these species but not today and not tomorrow. Unless some has some cuapos grannies for 100 bucks each


There is a lot of truth to that but then there are those of us that live in a frog vacuum and don't have the opportunity/desire to travel out of state much. I dove into this hobby and quickly had what I believe was the largest collection of darts at least # of species/morph wise for darts and mantella in Oklahoma. But other then, I think Ben and maybe some lady that worked for the zoo that may have had me beat in shear volume by actually producing more froglets and getting them out there though as I was still in the process of just buying up whatever I could get my hands on when I could afford it, there weren't to many of us.

My breeding efforts other then darklands were just really starting to pay off when the ice storm wiped me out. There were very few froggers, and I was begging all the the vendors at our crappy little local show to bring me darts...by the time they started listening I had moved beyond most of the more common species (as in I had the ones I wanted...not as in, I was above all that)

Basically 98% of my participation in this hobby has been online...I occasionally go to our local show, but mostly keep to myself and I've only met other froggers here a couple times. Being in this part of the country my only real chance to get into the inner circle and hook up with the people with rarer stuff is online unless I'm willing to start making more trips out of state. So there are those of us that are fairly experienced that don't have as much access to rarer stuff as we might if we were a little more social in real life and lived in another part of the country...Doesn't help often being broke either


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

I agree with Dendrobati, but also what Brad0608 writes is right for me. Nothing prohibit taking frog rare and expensive, if someone wants to sell them to a beginner. Experience is formed with try things, in addition to sharing them with others. As for the fact that info are not shared, it's true, but honestly I'm learning a lot from you, comparing with you. This forum exists for this. But I’m aware of my limitations and I want to take small steps. Maybe in the next future I will have histrionica and sylvatica, but now I’m happy with the most common pumilios. This is my opinion. 

P.S.: Sorry if I'm not very clear in what I say, but my English is rusty. Regards


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

Why exactly is it so hard to find legal imports? I mean what exactly makes the process hard from a legal standpoint? I see some people mentioned unstable areas but why is that a problem? Do the governments of the US or Columbia purposely ban their export to try to remove a money source for others? Seems to me people from unstable areas would be more inclined to be willing to gather and export them or at least move them to traders.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

Pubfiction said:


> Why exactly is it so hard to find legal imports? I mean what exactly makes the process hard from a legal standpoint? I see some people mentioned unstable areas but why is that a problem? Do the governments of the US or Columbia purposely ban their export to try to remove a money source for others? Seems to me people from unstable areas would be more inclined to be willing to gather and export them or at least move them to traders.


Well I've been out of the loop for awhile but I'll take a stab at this...

Many of the countries that have these species are not exporting them. They have no legal quota set, so legit collectors are not allowed to collect/export them. Also with some countries past exports to zoos or researchers have found their way into private hands which kind PO'd the export country (Right?)
And places like Columbia are not places where many researchers are comfortable roaming the jungles for fear that cartel/general crooks will chop off their head, or hold them for ransom...Some jungles are not friendly places  On the up side it seems that even a lot of smugglers are afraid to go there so the frogs are kinda being protected by that in some ways. I'm kinda surprised those crooks/cartel people haven't gotten into the frog smuggling business (or maybe they have?)...but maybe the foreign people they'd have to deal with as intermediaries are all to scared to take the risk of getting into bed with those kinda people. 

Then you have the fact that Europe and Asia seem to be more accepting of animals with questionable origins... And while some of the people over there that have them may be willing to export them to here, and sometimes they can get legal documents, our US hobby tends to ask a lot of uncomfortable questions and frown on frogs with these questionable origins, that to our knowledge have never or not recently been allowed to be exported legally. So what there is of this going on here is mostly kept quiet. 

From a legal standpoint it is a pain in the butt to get the paper work, and generally only worth it for a large shipment of rare frogs, but shipping them across the pond is risky so you have more of a chance of getting frogs DOA...and loosing all that cash. That keeps a lot of people from even bothering to try. There have also been issues with people faking paperwork and stuff like that... basically it is just a big mess trying to import/export these species and then you have to deal with all the questions about how legit they are if you do.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

swampfoxjjr said:


> If you are truly interested in these animals, they are out there. You will not access them via forums.



I completely disagree with this statement. An hour usign the search feature, and I identified 4-5 people who keep histrionicus. I contacted them, they contacted me back. That has lead to further contacts of people not on board who keep them. Yes, they are a bit secretive. Most are "old-line" histo's are were legally imported years ago in the 80's-90's


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## swampfoxjjr (Nov 13, 2007)

pdfCrazy said:


> I completely disagree with this statement. An hour usign the search feature, and I identified 4-5 people who keep histrionicus. I contacted them, they contacted me back. That has lead to further contacts of people not on board who keep them. Yes, they are a bit secretive. Most are "old-line" histo's are were legally imported years ago in the 80's-90's


Yea? And how many of them ended up in your collection?

Actually, I don't really care. Not worth arguing semantics. If you equate what you did with starting a thread in the beginner section of the forums with "Who Haz Histos for ME??!!", you missed the point of my post. Your way = better.

Good luck to you all.


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

If I wanted to pull the trigger and purchase them, I could have. I decided against it ONLY because I could have ten tanks of ten species for the same price. When finances better permit, they will still be there, since people like you think they are totally inaccessible.

Last words on the subject:
Thread closed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Doesn't appear closed to me.

s


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## Blue_Pumilio (Feb 22, 2009)

Scott,

Sometimes you have to use your imagination. 



Scott said:


> Doesn't appear closed to me.
> 
> s


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

By the authority vested in me by myself, the Elves of the elder wood, the council of dragons, the keeper of the grand design, the keeper of mysteries, the internet universal life church, Buddha, and my pet Fox I here by declare this thread reopened! Cake at my place...you bring the cake!


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

I wonder if anyone will have anything crazy like histos or Sylvatica at Microcosm? Maybe there will be a misty back room where the big boys play.


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

oldlady25715 said:


> I wonder if anyone will have anything crazy like histos or Sylvatica at Microcosm? Maybe there will be a misty back room where the big boys play.


The mental image of a bunch of guys like Rich, Mark, Sean, ect sitting in a dim lit room smoking big Cuban cigars trading histos and sylvatica gave me a big smile on my face. In reality though sylvatica and granulifera aren't that hard to get a hold of. A quick email to Rich or Mark and you have access to some of the most desirable frogs in the US.

D


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Thankfully you did not say mysty back room. 

s


oldlady25715 said:


> I wonder if anyone will have anything crazy like histos or Sylvatica at Microcosm? Maybe there will be a misty back room where the big boys play.


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