# OOOOh this burns my a$$



## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

I was looking for supplies to repair my tank (or a new tank to replace it ) In the pet store they have a bunch of frogs in LITTLE cages (cricket cages!!! :shock: ) and among the "inmates" were a group of auratus :shock: :shock: in a teeny tiny cricket box! I about striped a gear. in the box with the frogs was a bunch of large crickets!!! I could have died. I asked to speak to someone (manager was out) and told him that number one: these frogs were juvies and they don't eat crickets- even adults don't eats crickets unless they are pinhead. I told him they eat fruitflies and where to get them. I also told him that the frogs needed higher humidity ( larger enclosure and a glass lid with some live plants)and if they were determined to have these frogs then they damn well need to learn how to care for them so they don't kill them or sell them to other idiots who don't know how to care for them and the frogs end up DEAD. 
The guy said I should work there! HA as if! But I am going to talk to the mgr and refer him to this board and the care sheets at the very least! Hopefully it will open his eyes.
grrrr! 

We need dedicated individuals out there. Because I really fear that in order to conserve these animals we are going to have to have a large healthy captive population of them. In order to do that - the people keeping them need to be educated. I wish they were as simple to care for as your garden variety goldfish. but then if that were the case , much interest in the hobby would be lost and they probably wouldn't be endangered in the first place.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Terrible.I think were also having problems with zoos,giving out wrong information about darts,labeling them wrong,putting them in too small of enclosures (saw too citronella tincs in a 2 gallon tank at a zoo),and not taking good care of them.One zoo had 3 galactonotus escape from their custom built cage.


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## Lucille (May 9, 2008)

Many times if an animal dies or remains unsold the store will get credit from the seller. They can always deduct those costs also.
I'm not saying what you saw is right, of course it isn't; but sometimes right and wrong do not figure on the bottom line which is profit. Which brings me to the point of my post: if the store does not really have adverse financial effects whatever way they treat their stock, IMHO it is best to approach gently and helpfully rather than adversarially.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Your right,but what about the zoos,who have plenty of $$$ to spend.It seems as if they only spend it on their big exibits.


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## Fidel (May 11, 2007)

Not all zoos have plenty of money to spend. Especially on frogs.


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## Lucille (May 9, 2008)

Zoos are a whole different ball game. A pet store is involved in making money; zoos are all about politics. Zookeepers as a group are remarkably educated; and there is no better group of people if you need information. I've called the local Houston zoo several times on different topics and each time I am eventually connected with someone who is courteous and helpful and sounds glad to talk to me about whatever critter I am calling about.
But I have heard from some of them that there is a lot of background politicking going on between departments and so on.


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## littlefrog (Sep 13, 2005)

I had quite a long and I hope polite conversation a few weeks ago with a lady who was exhibiting some azureus up on Mackinac Island (the butterfly house). She obviously tried to get an enclosure correct, but it was way too dry and there weren't any real plants or places for the animals to hide, and they looked pretty stressed out. She was trying, just didn't have very good information to work with.

Hopefully I'll hear from her soon, and we can get that straightened out. I do the same thing when I see the poor things at pet stores with awful conditions. I look at it as an opportunity to educate, rather than berate. Some people will take the opportunity to learn something, and many people won't. If I go back to the pet store and nothing has changed I get an idea of which one I'm working with pretty quickly! And I usually won't go back a third time if it is the wrong kind of learners.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

I know my post sounded like I chewed the guy out  Actually I didn't- I tend to be very non confrontational. But I did tell him that the tank was way too small, the humidity was way too low and a glass lid on at least a ten gal would be better, I sold him that the frogs were juvies and would not likely ever eat crickets, flightless fruitflies are much better and very easy to culture. I gave him this web site address and told him to read the care sheets and that the people here are very helpful and informative if he or the manager have any questions. 

The thing is (and this is why I came across so aggressively in my post)- I know it won't make any difference. Bottom line it is a business thing and the $$ is all that really matters. Ironically, if they took the time and a minimum of money to set up a decent enclosure they could sell the frogs and equipment and supplies etc for more than he had them priced.


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

This is what it comes down to today,what rakes in the most cash.At the zoo (where the frogs were I was talking about) had a lot of big exibits that were fancy and had way too much money spent into them,but they couldnt spare a few bucks to fix up there dart frog tanks?


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Moothefrog,

The zookeepers are not the ones who typically decide where the money goes. Frogs are not exactly something that lures the average Joe through the gates. Its also common for donations made to the zoo to be set for a specific project or animal.

Bring back copies of the care sheets to the pet store, and maybe a FF culture. This way, the employees know you are serious, and not just another customer ragging on someone.


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## cindre2000 (Dec 17, 2007)

It really depends on the pet store, sometimes you get a good store w/ open minded individuals that realize they are not the "know-all-god-of-pets"; and other times you get close minded individuals that are just a buisness out for the bottom line. The secret is to find a store that is open minded, and then provide your support, even if it costs a little more: _its all about customer service_.

Most stores will realize that pdf's maybe to difficult to keep for anything but a special order. They require a high humidity setup (not hard, but still a little work), can be delicate, are generally not bold (which makes selling them harder), and most importantly, require a specilized food (one they will have to culture and may not be able to sell or use on other animals). _You may even get a special 'deal' if the manager decides to get rid of them; since frogs are almost _never _guaranteed except to arrive alive._

I work at a pet store, and have set up a PDF tank; and we have yet to make back the money it took to set up the tank after 5 months. Frogs are just not big sellers, and on top of that, unless the store is selling the feeder insects that the frog eats, frogs do not encourage customers to come back!


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## moothefrog (May 16, 2008)

Yes I should bring them caresheets.I was just talking about getting a bigger tank,perhaps a 20 so the frogs can move around instead of them being being in cramped condition in a 2 gallon.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

If I had a larger tank to "donate" I would - these frogs were not even in a 1 gal tank. They were in a small cricket cage. 

Here is a really bad cop out on my part- it is a long drive to get to this store and with 4 little kids; it is a stressful trip as well. But I will try to get out there this week with a care sheet in hand :wink:


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

There is another problem here. From what source is this particular pet store obtaining the dart frogs from? Most honest, reliable breeders don't sell wholesale to just any "pet store," and make sure they have all of the information to keep them, if they happen to do this. So I tend to think these frogs may be "wild-caught illegal imports."


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

I had thought of that as well. I can't think of anything to offer in regards to that. But I can at least give the care sheets and some ff


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## Greg (Dec 25, 2007)

You should have told that bonehead manager at the pet store, or who ever else takes care of the frogs, that they should go and check out the Dendroboard website. Maybe then they could figure out that they are abuseing those poor frogs, and if they read the care sheets in Dendroboard they could learn to treat them the right way.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

slaytonp said:


> There is another problem here. From what source is this particular pet store obtaining the dart frogs from? Most honest, reliable breeders don't sell wholesale to just any "pet store," and make sure they have all of the information to keep them, if they happen to do this. So I tend to think these frogs may be "wild-caught illegal imports."



Hi Patty,

There are legal imports of auratus coming into the country right now. They are probably off of some dealer's list or could have even come from a fish dealer. 

Ed


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

hey tadpole what part of Georgia do you live in?


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

NE- outside ATL between Athens (Bulldawg country :wink: ) and Lawrenceville.
I am in the middle of a building project and I am actually looking for a group of frogs to inhabit this viv- One of the choices on the list is Ironically enough- Auratus.

But I am not going to support this kind of "business"


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## scream-aim-fire (Mar 1, 2008)

repticon will be here july 26-27 you might be able to find a good deal on some frogs there. im gonna go i need to get some more frogs to go in my new 29gal viv that im in the middle of building right now too. im either getting azureus or tincs, i havent decided yet.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

Oooh oooh oooh - where is repticon going to be held??? Details!!


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Lawrenceville. A lot of us are going to meet up there an maybe have lunch afterwards. We also want to rotate cookouts and such every now and then.
Candy


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

AWESOME!!! I want to come too  I would also love to join in a BBQ rotation 8) I make killer pulled pork sandwiches!! :lol: :lol:


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## divingne1 (Mar 21, 2008)

Killer pulled pork sandwiches!?! You are in my friend. My favorite bbq sandwich.
Candy


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## Sarra (Jul 5, 2008)

I suppose the pet stores around me are better... They have some smaller darts in a 10 gallon tank with moss and a good hiding place for them.

The pet store I got my Auratus from had a planted tank, even.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

There is something to be said about having these frogs be just a little bit harder to get hold of than running down to the local pet store. they are beautiful animals and I think more of them would end up as impulse buys without adequate understanding as to their needs and proper care.

I'm not being elitist when I say they require special care and not everyone is prepared to go to the lengths required to provide that care; so it is a good thing that they are a little harder to get.


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## Sarra (Jul 5, 2008)

I understood that these frogs require a planted, humid, decent sized vivarium. I had one setup for 3 weeks before I got my frogs. But the general public won't know that, which is where the people selling the frogs come in. But, breeder or pet store, there's still a chance that someone will want it enough to lie about it get it.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

Well yeah exactly- That person may want them enough to actually take the time to learn about them and follow up with proper care.

I'm not suggesting that we not allow people to buy the frogs if they want them. I only mean that the problem with the pet store is that the person selling them doesn't necessarily know any more about them than the person buying them. And so cannot tell the buyer what they are getting themselves into. Or even direct them to the resources to help them as they navigate the learning curve.


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## DocChris (Jul 8, 2008)

Alright, so I was doing like I was told, and reading the forums before asking a question, and stumbled across this thread.
In regards to the pet store's abuse, I sometimes wonder if they do this intentionally (not all businessmen are exactly scrupulous) in order to sucker punch ppl who actually give a damn about the herps & frogs they have into purchasing their substandardly housed specimens. I've seen many posts in other forums across the net indicating that many herp enthusiasts tend to try and rescue abused pet-store specimens.

In regards to the poor quality/conditions of dendros and their kin in the zoo, yes, most zoos don't have exactly an unlimited budget, and the principles of trickle-down economics dictates that the vast majority of those funds are spent in the elephant house, the big cat cages, etc.

_*However,*_ many zoos have a volunteer program of some sort. The one locally encourages members of the community to become involved in the zoo through spending time, rather than just money (although, of course, they're happy to accept that too.) So if your local zoo has substandard PDF enclosures, volunteer to help them bring them up to par. Few professionals, and none worth their salary, will turn down the advice and assistance of a "subject matter expert," especially those offering their service free of charge. 

Just a few thoughts on how to be proactive in improving the quality of life for the dendros not so lucky to be housed in the utopic enclosures we work so hard to establish and maintain.


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

No My local zoo is the Atlanta zoo and the Atlanta Botanical Gardens- Actually top notch Pdf exhibit from what I understand. its the local pet store :roll: not so top notch.


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

Any update on what the manager did?

This is interesting!  :roll:


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## tItAnIuMhOpPeR (Jun 14, 2008)

I was at my local pet shop yesterday, and noticed that some green tree frogs and a single RETF were in a small enclosure and had nose rub. There were about 8 or 9 frogs in a 12x12x18. Mean while, there was a single PDF in an 18x18x24. I came home, looked at a few things and let them know how to fix their situation. I like this pet store a lot. It is the best in town. Sometimes people just need a little coaching or a reminder that they have some pets in the back that may get over looked once in awhile.

Good on you for bringing to light their mistakes and "helping" instead of "beating" them to fix the situation. :mrgreen:


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## Tadpole4 (Mar 16, 2006)

No- I gave the frog guy?? :? the pages I printed off the care sheets, FF culturing info and a few sources from the links here and also gave him this website.
But he seemed kind of -- "oh uh thanks" about it. Not really responsive and I haven't had the chance to get back there since then.


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## tItAnIuMhOpPeR (Jun 14, 2008)

Tadpole4 said:


> No- I gave the frog guy?? :? the pages I printed off the care sheets, FF culturing info and a few sources from the links here and also gave him this website.
> But he seemed kind of -- "oh uh thanks" about it. Not really responsive and I haven't had the chance to get back there since then.



That is a bummer. I would like to think people in the pet business are in it for the love of the animals. Naive me.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Some are in it for the money...it is more important that the animals. I have known a few pet stores that have encouraged customers/hobbists to bring them their dead animals to toss in their freezer so they could have a better tax right off at the end of the year.

We are pretty picky about pet stores buying our frogs. We don't sell to many & have been known to stop in to see how their displays for the frogs are.


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## tItAnIuMhOpPeR (Jun 14, 2008)

melissa68 said:


> Some are in it for the money...it is more important that the animals. I have known a few pet stores that have encouraged customers/hobbists to bring them their dead animals to toss in their freezer so they could have a better tax right off at the end of the year.
> 
> We are pretty picky about pet stores buying our frogs. We don't sell to many & have been known to stop in to see how their displays for the frogs are.


That is very unfortunate that people do that. I can understand things like rabbits and other animals that do not need a whole lot of anything to get by other than food and water. But animals that need so much to mimic the actual terrain that they live in just to keep them semi happy. You would think they would pay more attention to things like that.

I think it is very good that you guys stop by to see how your "products" are doing.


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## Sarra (Jul 5, 2008)

The owner of one of the better LPS/LFS here has a genuine love for animals, fish, and inverts. Not only do they at least attempt to keep things right, like keeping their dart frogs in a proper, planted, misted enclosure, they can and will listen when someone tells them that they're doing it wrong. The Owner will literally drop what he's doing to rectify the situation.

He's certainly not in it for the money. He knows me, and often asks how my previously purchased animal is doing, and if I say "it died", he'll 80% of the time go back to the display, pull another one out, and give it to me for free, after questioning me to make sure I'm keeping it properly. It's because of him, and my best friend, that I'm still doing herps, despite my recent losses.


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## froggiefriend (Jan 4, 2008)

okay so on the same lines I was at the local zoo... They had auratus, tincs and leucs (2 of each) in what looked like no bigger than a 20g (at most) tank. It did have plants but really no hiding places... How do you go about talking to someone about it? I was very disturbed by this...


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## Sarra (Jul 5, 2008)

Find an employee and ask if they can point you who to talk to about it. Remember, don't be rude, or your advice and knowledge will be wasted on them.


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## tItAnIuMhOpPeR (Jun 14, 2008)

froggiefriend said:


> okay so on the same lines I was at the local zoo... They had auratus, tincs and leucs (2 of each) in what looked like no bigger than a 20g (at most) tank. It did have plants but really no hiding places... How do you go about talking to someone about it? I was very disturbed by this...


Smash and grab  

I agree with Sarra. Someone should be able to get you to the keeper that deals with them. Like was said before, bring this place to their attention. It is a world of help and hopefully we can help out another set of helpless frogs.


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