# bug spray



## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

dose any one use bug spray in there frog room? im just wondering if it will afect the frogs. i dont spray for bugs however my mother almost sprayed my room. lucky i was home to stop her... but what if i wasnt. what would hppen hypotheticaly (wow spelt wrong!)


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Insecticides in general are not good for your frogs and given their ability to rapidly absorb materials through their skin, they are more vulnerable to them than some other animals (including ourselves).

Many insecticides act as neurotoxins and while vertebrate nervous systems bear only partial homology to invertebrate ones at the gene level, at high enough concentrations you will get cross reactivity and toxicity.

In addition, don't forget that your feeder insects will be just as vulnerable as other insects to insecticides.

Having said all this, to keep on your mother's good side you need to consider how you will keep your room free of undesirables so that she isn't compelled to spray. Mothers are like that...not wanting a bunch of random invertebrates wandering around the house. She is tolerating your creatures and you will want to accomodate her concerns as well...

Good luck.

Bill


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Use a vacuum cleaner, often. This should surprise and please your mother, while it sucks up the bugs. But do not allow any insecticide spraying. That's instant death to your frogs and their food source. It's not all that good for humans, either.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

There are 100% organic bug sprays that my g-f's father uses in his business that are safe for all living creatures, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. He sprays inside my house, but I still don't let him spray in my frog room. He does however spray directly outside the frog room in the back and side yards and I have had no problems. I am not recommending you use them in your frog rooms, but it may be a good idea to make sure the Orkin man uses these types of pesticides if he does come to handle an ant breakout or anything of that kind.


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## Jungle_John (Feb 19, 2007)

well my parrents know not to spray around my room. just they just move back in with me and they froget alot of things like this. however i posted a sign about 15 feet from my frog room hopfuly this will stop them from going even into my frog room. however i think im going to look into the organic stuff and give that to them so that if they must spray the house they can use that.
thanks guys


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> There are 100% organic bug sprays that my g-f's father uses in his business that are safe for all living creatures, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals.


I think you are wise to keep them out of your frog room. Personally, I wouldn't use them anywhere inside my house where there were frogs. Just because a substance is organic does not mean it is safe. Some of the most toxic substances known are organic (cobra venom, frog toxins...) I've seen nicotine sold as an organic pesticide and that is pretty nasty stuff. Also, when a pesticide is labeled as "safe" for certain organisms (most notably humans), that does not mean it has no toxic effect. It just means that any KNOWN effects are deemed acceptable according to testing and labeling standards. And technically, there is no such thing as a pesticide safe for all creatures because all pests are creatures and it wouldn't be much of a pesticide if it didn't kill them. If you ever want to find out about a pesticide, you can look them up on the EPA web site and get their fact sheets. I have yet to see a pesticide that has absolutely no toxic effects on non-target species.

I personally would not use any aerosol pesticide inside my house if I had frogs. Baits are probably okay so long as there is no chance the baited pests will wind up as food for the frogs. It's just much better to be safe than sorry. And in many cases, the pesticides pose more of a health threat than the bugs they are being used to kill.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> There are 100% organic bug sprays that my g-f's father uses in his business that are safe for all living creatures, including amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals. He sprays inside my house, but I still don't let him spray in my frog room. He does however spray directly outside the frog room in the back and side yards and I have had no problems. I am not recommending you use them in your frog rooms, but it may be a good idea to make sure the Orkin man uses these types of pesticides if he does come to handle an ant breakout or anything of that kind.


The two organic bug sprays that I can think of off hand are Pyrethrin and Rotenone (usually combined with Piperonyl Butoxide which increases the toxicity of these compounds). Rotenone is substantially more toxic to people/pets/etc... than Pyrethrin so I suspect it is Pyrethrin. Pyrethrin is certainly not 100% safe to amphibians (I was not able to find specific toxicity data in a quick search, though), though it is relatively safe to people and mammals. 

For ants and roaches, I have always found baits to be the best solution, the poison is contained that way, and doesn't get into you or your pets (as long as you keep them out of the dog's reach).


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Another thing to be aware of is that there is more than one definition of "organic". An organic compound is essentially any chemical that contains carbon which includes more than half of all known chemical compounds including petroleum and most pesticides. Another definition refers to "organically" grown foods which usually means using no synthetic pesticides or fertilizers. And lastly, organic is sometimes used to mean something that is derived from nature rather than synthesized in a lab. It is this latter definition most likely being invoked for organic pesticides. But it is a pretty bogus term intended to make us feel safer or more responsible about their use. Like I said earlier, some of the most dangerous compounds known come from nature.

The way pesticides are labeled and used makes me crazy. I'm not opposed to chemical pesticides and use them occassionally myself. But the way they are labeled and marketed leads people to thing many of them are perfectly safe and there are no consequences for their use. Which, of course, pretty much guarantees they are overused and used unsafely and irresponsibly.


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## MELLOWROO421 (Feb 21, 2007)

Here is a link to what it is that he uses. It uses things like thyme and spiramint oils. From what I'm told it only affects octopamine (sp?) sensors that are only found in insects and spiders. It is mixed in a pump sprayer so it is not an aerosol. I don't know nearly as much as many of you do I am sure, but this is the info I was given. Still sounds better than any chemical based bug sprays. 
http://www.critterridders.com/ecopco.htm
Also, I have seen plants die from heavy pyrethrin applications while trying to control spider mites. (just thought I'd throw that in there.
1 more thing.


> If you ever want to find out about a pesticide, you can look them up on the EPA web site and get their fact sheets. I have yet to see a pesticide that has absolutely no toxic effects on non-target species.


From what I understand, this "eco exempt" pesticide is actually exempt from having to be listed with the EPA, which is probably why you haven't seen it. Not trying to make waves, just passing on the info I have been given.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

MELLOWROO421 said:


> Here is a link to what it is that he uses. It uses things like thyme and spiramint oils. From what I'm told it only affects octopamine (sp?) sensors that are only found in insects and spiders. It is mixed in a pump sprayer so it is not an aerosol. I don't know nearly as much as many of you do I am sure, but this is the info I was given. Still sounds better than any chemical based bug sprays.
> http://www.critterridders.com/ecopco.htm
> Also, I have seen plants die from heavy pyrethrin applications while trying to control spider mites. (just thought I'd throw that in there.
> 1 more thing.
> ...


When I said aerosol before, I meant any pesticide that is sprayed. Spraying puts fine droplets of the substance in the air where it can drift. Of course the finer the spray, the more it drifts. But even if it is squirted in a stream, it still creates airborne particles.

In some respects, these types of pesticides make me more nervous than regular pesticides. Because of the very fact they lure people into believing they are perfectly harmless. And when you believe something is harmless, you are more likely to use it when it isn't really necessary. I found this on the MSD label from the link you posted:



> 12. ENVIRONMENTAL INFORMATION
> While specific data regarding toxicity to fish or other aquatic organisms is
> not available for this product, care should always be taken to prevent pesticides from entering aquifers.


The important thing to remember is that there are thousands upon thousands of "natural plant oils" that are extremely toxic. And all pesticides are designed to be extremely toxic to something. 

And don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that this particular product is dangerous to use around your frogs. What I'm saying is that I see no way to reasonably determine its safety. Things like "organic" and "100% natural plant oils" really say nothing about the safety of these products in the environment.

Here is the link to the EPA guidelines for "minimum risk pesticides" ingredients:

http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/regtools/25b_list.htm

One interesting thing pops out that currently there is no regulation to make sure these Minimum Risk Pesticides are actually effective at doing what their manufacturers claim. It looks like that is going to be fixed soon though.

Again, I'm not trying to say that this particular product is bad. If may be a fantastic product for all I know. I'm just trying to point out how the labeling of these things is very confusing and can leave us scratching our heads even after reading all of the material data. I just prefer to treat all products that are designed to kill living organisms as suspect anywhere near my frogs unless I have some good evidence that it will be safe. Finding that evidence can be very tricky.

BTW, I did a quick google on this product and could find nothing negative about it, which is pretty rare for any pesticide.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Actually the belief that trace amines (such as octopamine) and their receptors are restricted to lower invertebrates such as insects has fallen by the wayside. See 

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/98/16/8966

for a description of mammalian trace amine receptors.

In addition octopamine has demonstrated activity on adrenergic receptors in vertebrates given its structural and functional similarities to norepineprhine. See

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/full/299/1/96

for more details.

Having said that, in the absence of both a detailed receptor profile screen for the ingredients of this 'natural' insecticide and a thorough understanding of exposure that would be seen by your frogs, it's hard to say if it would or would not be a problem. I'm with Brent though in saying that many of these natural agents are pretty nasty in their own right and better safe than sorry. I am always concerned that amphibians given their large surface area capable of directly absorbing materials from the environment can be supersensitive to chemical agents.

I won't allow spraying anywhere around my frogs, other animals and quite honestly my children as well.

Best of luck.

Bill


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