# Gut loading Fruit flies



## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I am trying to interpret this and i am having a hard time. Does this mean that it is a waste of effort to supplement flies with calcium due to them secreting "excess" calcium to maintain homeostasis, or are they implying that it is safe to supplement because they can maintain homeostasis with increased levels of calcium in their bodies. 

Calcium homeostasis in larval and adult Drosophila melanogaster. 2000 Archives of Insect Biochemistry and Physiology
44: 27-39
Calcium homeostasis in Drosophila melanogaster was examined in response to the challenges imposed by growth, reproduction and variations in dietary calcium content. Turnover time for calcium, calculated as the time for Ca to accumulate to half the steady state value of 3.46 nmol/fly, was 3.3 days. Although larvae weighed 2X as much as adults, they contained 3–4X as much calcium. Anterior Malpighian tubules (MTs) contain much more calcium than posterior MTs, accounting for 25–30% of the calcium content of the whole fly. In response to a 6.2-fold increase in dietary calcium level, calcium content of whole flies increased only 10%. Hemolymph calcium concentration (~0.5 mM) was similar in males and females and in animals raised on diets differing in calcium content. Fluid secretion rate, secreted fluid calcium concentration, and transepithelial calcium flux in tubules isolated from flies raised on high and low calcium diets did not differ significantly. Malpighian tubules secrete calcium at rates sufficient to eliminate whole body calcium content in 0.5 and 3 days for tubules secreting fluid at basal and maximal rates, respectively. It is suggested that flies absorb high quantities of calcium from the diet and maintain homeostasis through the combined effects of elimination of calcium in fluid secreted by the Malpighian tubules and the sequestration of calcium in granules, especially within the distal segment of the anterior pair of Malpighian tubules.


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

PhylloBroTM said:


> Does this mean that it is a waste of effort to supplement flies with calcium due to them secreting "excess" calcium to maintain homeostasis


That is how I am understanding it. Where's Ed?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

There is (or used to be, before the term 'gut loading' got reinterpreted as 'feeding better foods' or something like that) a distinction between 'supplementing' and 'gut loading': supplementing is adding something to an animal's diet to effect some improvement or difference, while 'gut loading' is (or was) 'feeding something special to a feeder animal immediately before using that animal as a feeder so that the predator is supplemented by the stomach contents of the prey animal'.

To answer your question sort of obliquely, you'd have to raise the D3 levels for the Ca to be a 'supplement' for the FFs, and then you run the risk of elevated D3 levels in your frogs. Ca, D3, A and E must be in balance and raising one of them in relation to the others wouldn't have any positive effect.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

The reason i am so unsure is they do say it increases by "only 10%" which can be seen as "hey cool 10% more calcium content!" or, "Wow, only 10%?" i guess thats where the confusion lies. Also if any of these effects will be passed on to the frogs is the main question.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

So is it pointless to supplement the flies media when there is dust supplements? Is potato and yeast enough for a media? If so then why does anyone buy premade media??


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

PhylloBroTM said:


> So is it pointless to supplement the flies media when there is dust supplements? Is potato and yeast enough for a media? If so then why does anyone buy premade media??


Yes it is and dangerous to your frogs to do so.

Typical Carolina mix gives you the basic requirements for the flies and people buy premade due to it being cheaper. It's not cost effective to buy small quantities the bigger stores are able to buy in bulk so therefore can provide a cheaper cost for a smaller quantity.

Closest your going to get to gut loading is repashy superfly. Carotenoids. There was a study showing the benefits with pumilio. Trying to create your own repashy is expensive. I can't replicate repashy or say neherp for what I can buy it for I've tried.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

PhylloBroTM said:


> So is it pointless to supplement the flies media when there is dust supplements? Is potato and yeast enough for a media? If so then why does anyone buy premade media??


You don't supplement the flies' media, you purchase or make a complete media. As S2G said, you can't make it for the price you can buy it. I'd go farther and say you can't make it as good as you can buy it; I base this on old threads on media and supplementation (search for them) that proved (mostly based on exchanges between Allen Repashy and Ed) that designing a media is PhD level science.

Your FF media (plus whatever you dust them with) is _the only thing your frogs are eating, ever_. So, no, frogs will not do well eating only potatoes and yeast. That we can only feed them fruit flies (and a couple other incidental feeders, maybe) is bad enough (so bad, the poor little guys aren't even toxic anymore); we should make sure that those FFs are as good as current science can make them.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Im not giving the frogs potatoes and yeast thats a couple ingredients i seen in a homemade recipe. That said does it matter if thats what i use as media? Does it actually even matter? the flies lives are so short anyway


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

PhylloBroTM said:


> Im not giving the frogs potatoes and yeast thats a couple ingredients i seen in a homemade recipe. That said does it matter if thats what i use as media? Does it actually even matter? the flies lives are so short anyway


 I don't want to spew info like a just created fire and I don't want to take credit for others work. So here's a thread to get you started. Just search around and you'll find everything you need.

https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/180770-fly-media.html#post1950330


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

PhylloBroTM said:


> Does it actually even matter? the flies lives are so short anyway


We're all under the impression here that you're going to be feeding these flies to frogs. If that is the case, then the lives of the flies are not a matter for concern, you're right. The point that is relevant in using the flies for feeding to frogs is that the ingredients in the media you use to raise your flies are going to be the prime determinants of the nutritional content of your frogs' diet. 

So, most folks here take questions about fruit flies to be in fact questions about raising frogs. So yes, it does matter, and that mattering has really nothing to do with fruit flies. 

If you're asking some other question, please do ask away.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Socratic Monologue said:


> We're all under the impression here that you're going to be feeding these flies to frogs. If that is the case, then the lives of the flies are not a matter for concern, you're right. The point that is relevant in using the flies for feeding to frogs is that the ingredients in the media you use to raise your flies are going to be the prime determinants of the nutritional content of your frogs' diet.
> 
> So, most folks here take questions about fruit flies to be in fact questions about raising frogs. So yes, it does matter, and that mattering has really nothing to do with fruit flies.
> 
> If you're asking some other question, please do ask away.


I didnt fully understand what you were saying in your previous post sorry. My original thought was that the media also went into the frogs like you just said, but then from another post i got the idea that the media isnt terribly important because the supplementation comes from dusting. 

I have made my own media. it works. but i dont want to short my frogs for a few dollars. I want to provide the best/healthiest diet possible for my frogs. 

I read in another post fruit flies do not retain carotenoids, retain too much vitamin E, and extrude calcium to maintain homeostasis. Can anyone explain how the commercial medias deal with these issues? I dont doubt that they have just curious how. It would make ordering everytime a lot easier as well. Any recommended commercial FF medias that you use would be appreciated.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

PhylloBroTM said:


> I didnt fully understand what you were saying in your previous post sorry. My original thought was that the media also went into the frogs like you just said, but then from another post i got the idea that the media isnt terribly important because the supplementation comes from dusting.
> 
> I have made my own media. it works. but i dont want to short my frogs for a few dollars. I want to provide the best/healthiest diet possible for my frogs.
> 
> I read in another post fruit flies do not retain carotenoids, retain too much vitamin E, and extrude calcium to maintain homeostasis. Can anyone explain how the commercial medias deal with these issues? I dont doubt that they have just curious how. It would make ordering everytime a lot easier as well. Any recommended commercial FF medias that you use would be appreciated.


I think the issue is that once it goes through the flies, you can't really predict what the balance of the vitamins will be. That's why we rely on dusting. The dust is relatively stable in the balance of the different nutrients. They also are relatively stable over the amount of time we need them to be (as opposed to going into the flies and potentially being changed chemically). That doesn't mean that it's a waste to grow healthy flies, though, both for your frogs' nutrition and for the long-term health of your fly lines. I use Repashy Superfly. I have tried a few commercial media but I trust Repashy and have had good luck with it. I have never been unhappy with anything I have bought from that company.

Mark


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

Encyclia said:


> I think the issue is that once it goes through the flies, you can't really predict what the balance of the vitamins will be. That's why we rely on dusting. The dust is relatively stable in the balance of the different nutrients. They also are relatively stable over the amount of time we need them to be (as opposed to going into the flies and potentially being changed chemically). That doesn't mean that it's a waste to grow healthy flies, though, both for your frogs' nutrition and for the long-term health of your fly lines. I use Repashy Superfly. I have tried a few commercial media but I trust Repashy and have had good luck with it. I have never been unhappy with anything I have bought from that company.
> 
> Mark


I am the same way with ZooMed. Looking at the label its everything I want/need and im already using Repashy supplements I trust the company as well. When i went to look for prices and where i can pick this stuff up for the best price i came across this video. 

I dont have an opinion on it. This video does not reflect my beliefs. just sharing.


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I picked up a FF culture kit from Glass Box Tropicals. It comes with their media. If anyone has tried their media and can offer any type of review that would be kind of cool.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

PhylloBroTM said:


> I am the same way with ZooMed. Looking at the label its everything I want/need and im already using Repashy supplements I trust the company as well. When i went to look for prices and where i can pick this stuff up for the best price i came across this video.
> 
> I dont have an opinion on it. This video does not reflect my beliefs. just sharing.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26F9bM00_Qo


Thanks for sharing the video. It was an interesting watch. I remain unconvinced, though. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few things that the video didn't do a good job of explaining. I don't know if the guy is right about the equivalence between the ingredients he uses in his medium and what Repashy lists in his ingredients list. There are lots of forms of the same chemical that could all appear the same in a list of ingredients. Most importantly, though, the guy doesn't say anything about how he arrives at how much of each ingredient he uses (maybe it's in a different video or I missed it in this one). My understanding is that Repashy did quite a bit of research on the balance of the ingredients in his mix. And, finally, how surprising is it that Repashy won't tell the guy what's in his mix or provide the guy with the research that he did? This is his livelihood. Why give other people the recipe so they don't have to buy Superfly, etc.? That's what he would be doing if he released his research. Regardless, the main reason that I use Superfly is that Ed uses it  (or at least he did at one point - maybe he has changed to a different medium). I am going to continue to just dip out the dry ingredients out of a single big tub and mix with water. The video medium is a hassle! 

Again, thanks for posting the video, though. I am always interested in alternatives, even if I don't choose to use them.

Mark


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## PhylloBro (Sep 21, 2018)

I am also going to use Superfly once i run out of Glass Box's media. I agree completely. This guy could be making poison.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

To be fair, I have never tried Glass Box medium. It could be the best thing ever and I wouldn't know  I have actually never tried a commercial medium that didn't grow flies well. I trust Repashy, though, to have a good understanding of frog nutrition. It may not have been Repashy all by himself, but I really believe that the reason you rarely hear about Spindly Leg Syndrome anymore is due to the availability of higher-quality supplements.

Mark


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

That video is a combination of BS and gross exaggerations, as is most everything that guy posts. He was a member here for a short while here until he was banned for being aggressive, insulting, and violating the User Agreement when people politely (but firmly) challenged his ludicrous claims.

He left a pretty ridiculous trail of destruction on a few fb groups too after he went after Repashy and Mistking there.


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## Kalle (May 14, 2010)

carola1155 said:


> That video is a combination of BS and gross exaggerations, as is most everything that guy posts. He was a member here for a short while here until he was banned for being aggressive, insulting, and violating the User Agreement when people politely (but firmly) challenged his ludicrous claims.
> 
> 
> 
> He left a pretty ridiculous trail of destruction on a few fb groups too after he went after Repashy and Mistking there.




Just recently out of curiosity checked one of his videos out. He had basically just collected cuts from other creators and edited it to a new video. Had a long legal disclaimer below of how he had legal right to do that. What an ass...


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

You can't really "gut load" FFs like you can crickets. This is why it is essential to dust your FFs with the appropriate supplements.

That being said, having the proper nutrients in the FF media DOES have noticeable effects on your frogs. A 2013 study found that pumilio feeding on carotenoid supplemented FFs raised offspring almost 3X as successfully as pumilio that fed on unsupplemented FFs:
Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive Success in Captive Strawberry Poison Frogs (Oophaga Pumilio)​
There is a DB thread on this article, but I couldn't find it


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## Okapi (Oct 12, 2007)

Kalle said:


> Just recently out of curiosity checked one of his videos out. He had basically just collected cuts from other creators and edited it to a new video. Had a long legal disclaimer below of how he had legal right to do that. What an ass...


I saw it and was though "Oh hey, its a video from the guy who says that all hybrid frogs are infertile and not to believe anything you hear about mixing on the internet." 

Read his replies to the comments to most of his videos. He can do no wrong and insults anyone who tries to say anything that he doesn't agree with or twist it into something else rather than defend his position with facts. He tells people who disagree with him to find one source that contradicts him and then afterwards acts like their source backs his argument up. I sometimes find his channel when researching things but once I see who it is I pass.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Encyclia said:


> My understanding is that Repashy did quite a bit of research on the balance of the ingredients in his mix. And, finally, how surprising is it that Repashy won't tell the guy what's in his mix or provide the guy with the research that he did? This is his livelihood.
> Mark


That guy is apparently blind as Allen posted the third party nutritional analysis right on the product page for superfly. 

Not to mention he has to account for the interactions of the vitamins and minerals and precursors needed for them to be effective and stable for a long shelf life.


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