# Mixing azureus



## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

I'm new to frogs and while I set up the vivarium I'm deciding on species. I really like cobalt azureus so I think I'll go that route. From my research I see that you shouldn't mix species, but what about different color of the same species? Like a yellowback and cobalt if they are both azureus?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

although they are the same species they are different morphs and occur in different regions so they should not be mixed.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

liriel said:


> I'm new to frogs and while I set up the vivarium I'm deciding on species. I really like cobalt azureus so I think I'll go that route. From my research I see that you shouldn't mix species, but what about different color of the same species? Like a yellowback and cobalt if they are both azureus?


what do you mean by cobalt azureus? these are two different morphs that are part of the Dendrobates Tinctorius species... Dendrobates Tinctorius (yellow back), Dendrobates Tinctorius (Cobalt), Dendrobates Tinctorius (Azureus). . . 
- As Julio said it is frowned upon to mix morphs here for the reason that they may cross - breed, and to our current knowledge, there have not been any studies on the matter if it does happen or not... so therefore especially for you being a beginner. Go for Either 2 yellow backs, 2 Azureus, or 2 cobalts


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

I'm still learning all the names and species. I saw yellowbacks and cobalt on the tinc/azureus care sheet and wasn't sure if they were the same species or not. I have a 60 gallon tank and know I'll want more than 2 frogs eventually. Is inbreeding between subspecies the only concern? I was more worried about fighting. I need to do more reading but I'm trying to wrap my head around all the species details.

I guess my generic newbie question is: can you ever have more than one color of frogs in a single viv?


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## steelheader (Oct 25, 2008)

liriel said:


> I'm still learning all the names and species. I saw yellowbacks and cobalt on the tinc/azureus care sheet and wasn't sure if they were the same species or not. I have a 60 gallon tank and know I'll want more than 2 frogs eventually. Is inbreeding between subspecies the only concern? I was more worried about fighting. I need to do more reading but I'm trying to wrap my head around all the species details.
> 
> I guess my generic newbie question is: can you ever have more than one color of frogs in a single viv?


Do a search for "mixing". There are many very long threads on the topic. Welcome to the hobby


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Yes, you can have more, but like I said it is frowned upon, I wouldn't be all that worried about fighting, As long as the frogs grow up together in the tank they should be ok, with very little to no fighting. Cross breeding is the major concern here on the board... some feel very against it, others are kinda up in the air about it. I know from experience, you do not want to cross. . . 

on another note lets look for the best option for you in the 60 gallon Viv...


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

Ill definitely do a search on mixing. It's a 24x24x24 tank I believe. I like the cobalts (I'm still confused about tinc vs azureus) that are yellow and blue. I would live to start with 2-3 of these. My husband really likes the yellow/blacks or oranges. I know, I'm still not comfortable with scientific names. If I have to just have cobalts I'm ok with that, but can I add 2-3 more down the road after my originals settle in? 

I really need to decide how I feel about having diff colors... I am guessing they should be added when everyone is small if I go that route. 

I am just not sure how to start. Do I get the final number of the one I want up front? I wanted them from different broods to help mitigate inbreeding. 

What would you guys suggest fir a giant 60 gallon starter viv fir someone who loves bright colors and big brightly colored bold frogs?


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## Dragas (Sep 4, 2008)

D. Leucomelas sound perfect. (Yellow/Black) and you can house a group. I have 4 in a 55g. 

Great beginner frogs, not too shy either. 


These were my first frogs as well. I have recently just set up another viv for some D. Azureus.


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

Azureus is not its own species....its a morph from the Dendrobates tinctorius species, for a 24 x 24 x 24, you have to realize that tinctorius are a terrestrial frog, while they will climb they spend most of the time on the floor. I'd say 4 cobalts MAX on a 24 x 24 ground area, and do not add to the collection after the original has settled in, that is when problems occur, territories are al ready established, and when a new frog comes in, this is usually when the fighting takes place... If you love Bright, Big, Bold frogs, Id say Cobalts, Citronella, or I was confused by what u mean by yellow/black or orange, are you talking about the splashback dart frog, Dendrobates Galactonotus? Or Dendrobates Leucomelas, .....or even Yellowback tinc?





liriel said:


> Ill definitely do a search on mixing. It's a 24x24x24 tank I believe. I like the cobalts (I'm still confused about tinc vs azureus) that are yellow and blue. I would live to start with 2-3 of these. My husband really likes the yellow/blacks or oranges. I know, I'm still not comfortable with scientific names. If I have to just have cobalts I'm ok with that, but can I add 2-3 more down the road after my originals settle in?
> 
> I really need to decide how I feel about having diff colors... I am guessing they should be added when everyone is small if I go that route.
> 
> ...


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

RedEyeTroyFrog said:


> If you love Bright, Big, Bold frogs, Id say Cobalts, Citronella, or I was confused by what u mean by yellow/black or orange, are you talking about the splashback dart frog, Dendrobates Galactonotus? Or Dendrobates Leucomelas, .....or even Yellowback tinc?


I keep reef tanks and these silly frogs seem way more complicated! I thought azureus was a species... I guess I mean tinc! I have no idea on the kinds of yellow or orange frogs, those are just the general colors my hubby likes. I was hoping I could have yellowbacks with cobalts (both appear to be tincs) but I need to do more detailed research on that, clearly. I'll look up everything you guys suggested. I'm going slow on this and I'm trying to learn as much as I can. It doesn't help that everything is so controversal! 

I appreciate all the feedback and suggestions. I'm so excited!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

It's okay.

Azureus used to be classified as a separate species until DNA analysis proved them to be genetically the same as D. tinctorius. However, older literature and information found on the web calls them Dendrobates azureus. Plus, many frog species like the imitator group have been renamed Ranitomeya as their genus name. They were once classified as the quinquevitattus group, but now DNA analysis proves this relationship to quinquevitattus to be incorrect. Former members of Epipedobates are now called Ameerega. Strawberry frogs (D. pumilio) are now called Oophaga and not Dendrobates.

With that said, Mantella nigricans and baroni are genetically identical, but are classified as separate species. O. lehmanni is genetically the same as O. histrionicus-- someone correct me if I am incorrect. Why? I am not sure.

About mixing, there wouldn't be much harm mixing two male tincs/ azureus of separate morphs in a large enough vivarium-- as long as the frogs are similar size. I wouldn't mix Regina tincs with dwarf morphs like Oyopok. But as a beginner, it's a waste of time and money to search for single males when it'd be cheaper and more fun just to set up two different tanks and start breeding-- if that's your goal.

Frogs are more fun to watch grow up anyway. Adult tincs can be nasty to each other if you're not careful-- and often beginners (even people that have kept them a long time) notice problems too late.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 12, 2008)

Rain_Frog said:


> With that said, Mantella nigricans and baroni are genetically identical, but are classified as separate species. O. lehmanni is genetically the same as O. histrionicus-- someone correct me if I am incorrect. Why? I am not sure.


Rain Frog, the definition of the word species is rapidly changing at this point. The line used to be "can produce fertile offspring". Clearly, that's not good enough. Some say that if they can produce fertile offspring, whether or not they regularly do in the wild. Still not good enough. 

The truth is, its not a clean line. If the animals don't share a common territory, they can be classified as different species despite being genetically similar, they're just early in speciation. The lack of population interbreeding will cause continued drift. 


There's no real consensus on what a species actually is, so, who knows?



"I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties" - Charles Darwin


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

so what's the least shy species that you can keep in groups? The more I read, the more I see that adult tincs should be kept in pairs only (azureus specifically). I think I'd like 4-5 frogs, of a decent size and bolder temperment


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

If I were you I would look up leucomelas (leucs). They can be kept in groups just fine, would love your tank's shape, are usually pretty darn bold, and if you are dead set on different colors you can get regular (nominant), and mix in some chocolate. Mixing them is fine since they are actually the same frog with a recessive trait.


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

ooo! Thanks jim. That sounds like a perfect solution for me  I was reading up on them last night and they were highest on my list. I'll do some more reading, but they sound like they are exactly what I'm looking for


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Definately do some leucs. They'd utilize all that vertical space, if your tank really is 24x24x24 there will be plenty of space for five or six of them. I have four and I can always find at least three of them at any given time at first glance.


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## ckreef (Aug 29, 2008)

I have a 60 gallon cube with luecs. They are all over the tank. You will love luecs in this tank.


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

Looks like the tanks is 24x24x24 and my husband loves the leucs! Thanks for the suggestions, I'm doing more reading up but I really like these little guys 

Here's my next silly question. I saw pictures where the tulsa zoo has the Yellow-Banded Poison Frog (Dendrobates Leucomelas) and the Green and Black Poison Dart Frog (Dendrobates Auratus) in the same tank. Is it ok to have those two species together? I assume they can't really cross breed... or is there then a fighting issue between species?


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## Geckoguy (Dec 10, 2008)

The aratus and the leucs could def. cross breed. You'll find many zoos mix species but generally they are of all the same sex and are kept in very large enclosures to prevent territorial issues. Id say go with the leucs I love mine and they are not shy at all... when I come home from work they are usually staring out the front of the viv waiting for feeding time and watching the cat watch them lol! ( I think they like to tease her). They are always out and about looking for food and even though they are provided with many hides they rarely use them unless Im reaching in the tank to do some trimming; even then they dont always hide. They are a blast to watch feed too they are very fast and love to eat; bit of pig in um I think Good luck with what ever you decide and keep researching. And If you want more then one species just go with another viv; half the fun of the hobby is building vivs to house the frogs in. Be prepared for addiction!


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

Geckoguy said:


> And If you want more then one species just go with another viv; half the fun of the hobby is building vivs to house the frogs in. Be prepared for addiction!


My first addiction are coral reef tanks, of which I have 3. I have a frag tank in the works, as well as a plan for another huge tank in the study... this cube happens to be a custom built tank that had an issue with the seams and won't hold water. I didn't have the heart to toss out that much material, especially with it's beautiful handcrafted matching stand, and so it's sat there for a long time empty. I finally decided that frogs would be PERFECT in this tank. I have been obsessed with frogs since I was a kid, and even kept green tree frogs as a teenager. 

I know I'm going to love this hobby, but I really want to keep it to one tank for now. Since it's such a nice size, I'm just trying to figure out what best to do with it. I know I say that now and will end up with a viv in the bedroom by the end of summer, but i'm really just focusing on one tank for now to see how it goes 

and right now I'm not really happy with the building part, but it's my own fault. Did you know it takes nearly a week to get dried great stuff out of the pores of your hands?? I shoulda read the mistake thread BEFORE I started the build! I love how it's going, but man it's a lot of work! 

anyhow, thank you for all the wonderful feedback. I am looking in to local breeders and want to see what colors of leucs are available around here. I think I could easily get my fill with some color variations of the standards. I'm just trying to figure out all the ins and outs of the hobby


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I would recommend either Leucs: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13015-dendrobates-leucomelas-novice.html

or Terribilis: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13856-phyllobates-terribilis-bicolor-novice.html

Terribilis are cool because they will eat larger prey and do great in groups. They are also very bold frogs.


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## liriel (Aug 14, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> Terribilis are cool because they will eat larger prey and do great in groups. They are also very bold frogs.


You had to go and throw the Terribilis in there when I had my mind all made up! hehe. Those are some nice looking frogs, too. I think I'll probably go the leuc route mainly because I like the coloration a tad better, and I so don't want to deal with crickets! I think FF will be way easier for me (altho crickets are more easily available at the pet store...).

Thanks for the links!


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## ryanf (May 29, 2007)

i like the mint bicolors alot- maybe my second frog choice after i get enough time under my belt with azures


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