# Paludariums vs Vivariums



## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

I have run across quite a few paludariums housing frogs lately. I am curious as to how these frogs are not drowning in the water section. The only real explanation I can get it seems is that there are areas for the frogs to climb out. Apparently they are not evident in the pics I have seen. Can anyone tell me how this is accomplished? How frogs are able to be kept in paludariums? Are there any advantages/disadvantages to keeping frogs this way? Anyone have any real world experience with both maybe?


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## DorisSlammington (Jan 12, 2014)

PDF do not do well in vivariums with large water features. They need leaf litter. But other species can do very well living their whole lives next to a pool of water and can easily climb the glass or jump out. Reed frogs, tree frogs, and many toads do well. I have a paludarium with 10 gallons of water but mine is animal free. I simply enjoy collecting rare plants and creating a little slice of jungle. Maybe someday I'll add a few fish. I still feel paludariums need to be for looks first. If someone wants to make his or her frog happy, leave the water feature out.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

DorisSlammington said:


> PDF do not do well in vivariums with large water features. They need leaf litter. But other species can do very well living their whole lives next to a pool of water and can easily climb the glass or jump out. Reed frogs, tree frogs, and many toads do well. I have a paludarium with 10 gallons of water but mine is animal free. I simply enjoy collecting rare plants and creating a little slice of jungle. Maybe someday I'll add a few fish. I still feel paludariums need to be for looks first. If someone wants to make his or her frog happy, leave the water feature out.


While I appreciate the fast response, I think what I was getting at is why specifically PDFs wouldn't do well in a paludarium, and why specifically your opinion is that water features can or should be left out. 

I see so many pictures and videos of not only PDFs with water features, but PDFs in paludariums that seem to be doing just fine. There has to be specific reasons as to why not to do these things...right?


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

irish said:


> While I appreciate the fast response, I think what I was getting at is why specifically PDFs wouldn't do well in a paludarium, and why specifically your opinion is that water features can or should be left out.
> 
> I see so many pictures and videos of not only PDFs with water features, but PDFs in paludariums that seem to be doing just fine. There has to be specific reasons as to why not to do these things...right?


dart frogs are not aquatic animals. they are either terrestrial (land) or arboreal (branches). they also eat microfauna. microfauna lives on land, so the more land and leaf litter you have, the more microfauna you can have. for the most part, adding a water feature has absolutely no benefit whatsoever to dart frogs because they are land/tree dwellers. because of this, if given the choice, dart frogs will prefer land over water.


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

irish said:


> While I appreciate the fast response, I think what I was getting at is why specifically PDFs wouldn't do well in a paludarium, and why specifically your opinion is that water features can or should be left out.
> 
> I see so many pictures and videos of not only PDFs with water features, but PDFs in paludariums that seem to be doing just fine. There has to be specific reasons as to why not to do these things...right?


PDFs need a lot of ground space and usually a water feature greatly takes away from that. I tried to house my auratus with a ~4gal water feature and the only time I ever saw it in use by the frogs was when one accidently fell in and immediately swam out. PDFs don't swim like other frogs. They are land creatures. A water feature looks nice, but it will take away from the much needed land space the frogs need. Also, the problems associated with cleaning algae off a water feature and having to do water changes in a body of water at the bottom of your tank are horrendous. Changing water while making sure your frogs don't get out is a major pain. You also run the risk of a really soggy substrate or if you use a glass or acrylic divider to isolate the water, it will risk the chance of failing when the tank is moved (mine did).

You CAN have a water feature but it is a major pain. I would personally go with a drip wall or small waterfall without a large body of water. Make sure you use a false bottom and watch your "splash" from any water feature. A couple drops on the substrate here and there really add up and your substrate will turn to mud before you know it.

There are plenty of small, natural looking water dishes you can use for your frogs to soak if that's your concern. I got a small 7'' diameter one that looks like a tree stump. The frogs will actually use this and it won't take up a ton of space.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Frogs can absolutely be kept in a lot of paludariums. Just like dogs can be kept in cages and Orcas can be kept in pens. However, it is generally not ideal and does not offer much for the frog or for the viewer to see natural behaviors of the frogs. If you are talking about a paludarium with basically a well-planted background and no real groundspace, frogs should not be kept there. That being said, with careful planning it can be done. 

Also, to say that water features add no benefit for dart frogs is incorrect. There are some dart frogs that can do well with and even benefit from having water features. Think Ameerega and Epipedobates species. The natural habitat for many of these species is the banks of streams. The problem most people run into is size. I wouldn't do a substantial water section with less than a 60-70gallon viv that has at least half of that being usable ground space for the frogs. A lot of times people will come here with a 20 gallon tank and want to have it half land/half water and that just doesn't work. So the gut reaction is to usually say no. However, larger size and the right land/water ratio can compensate for any space-related issues. 

If it is something you want to do, I think we need to take a step back and look at what your goals are before we get more generalizations in the answers. 

So before we get any further here, what kind of size/dimensions are you looking to build?

What kind of layout were you looking for? mostly water? even mix of water and land? 

Did you have a species in mind or are you looking to find info on a species that would be appropriate?


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

yea, unless op specifies what frog he wants to keep and what size tank he has, i'm assuming the frogs are thumbs, tincs, leucs, and the tank size is 10-20ish gallons.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, I am still deciding on the specific frog to keep, but the real idea that flashed to me when seeing paludariums were some of the larger ones I have seen that were able to accomodate not only the needs of the PDFs, but to also have some aquatic plants and small fish or shrimp. Almost like having a 2 in 1 enclosure. (I also enjoy aquariums)

I realize that planning on a particular basis would be needed in such a setup for all animals involved and that certain animals would just never do well together in general. The focus of this post was the fact that I could not ever seem to get an answer as to 1) How a large paludarium could be done in the manner I have described without being a danger to the frogs, and 2) What specifically prompts people to say that paludariums for PDFs are just a flat no go.

If there are PDFs that would specifically enjoy a paludarium, I would love to hear which ones as i am still in the planning stages and welcome all info even if I never need it. Part of the process is learning everything I can. 

Also, in terms of size, I understand that a paludarium would need to be very large to accomodate every species involved. But I see 18x18x18 Exo Terras being suggested for groups of 3 for terrestrial frogs such as Auratus or Tinctorius. How much room do these frogs actually need? I do realize that bigger is most likely better. (Same for fish)


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## FrogTim (Oct 1, 2015)

irish said:


> ...
> Also, in terms of size, I understand that a paludarium would need to be very large to accomodate every species involved. But I see 18x18x18 Exo Terras being suggested for groups of 3 for terrestrial frogs such as Auratus or Tinctorius. How much room do these frogs actually need? I do realize that bigger is most likely better. (Same for fish)



I house 4 juvenile auratus in a 24x18x18 and they use every inch of that thing top to bottom. I would be hesitant to put 3 in an 18x18x18. 

The general consensus is 10gallons per frog and/or 1sq ft per frog for the larger dendrobates like auratus, tincs and leucs.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

irish said:


> I realize that planning on a particular basis would be needed in such a setup for all animals involved and that certain animals would just never do well together in general. The focus of this post was the fact that I could not ever seem to get an answer as to 1) How a large paludarium could be done in the manner I have described without being a danger to the frogs, and 2) What specifically prompts people to say that paludariums for PDFs are just a flat no go.


Your best bet is to truly go by the size needs for the niche of each animal you are trying to keep. So if a trio of leucs would work well in an 18x18x18, then make sure that whatever size paludarium you are creating has at least the same kind of volume and terrestrial area to it and then add the aquatic portion to that. 



irish said:


> If there are PDFs that would specifically enjoy a paludarium, I would love to hear which ones as i am still in the planning stages and welcome all info even if I never need it. Part of the process is learning everything I can.


Most of the larger-clutch (15+eggs) breeders would appreciate some sort of running water and at least a small body of water. These species tend to be stream breeders (hence the larger clutches), so they are around water a lot. Like I mentioned before, Ameerega and epipedobates species are a great option.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

FrogTim said:


> I house 4 juvenile auratus in a 24x18x18 and they use every inch of that thing top to bottom. I would be hesitant to put 3 in an 18x18x18.
> 
> The general consensus is 10gallons per frog and/or 1sq ft per frog for the larger dendrobates like auratus, tincs and leucs.


I was not aware of this. This helps alot. I appreciate it.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

carola1155 said:


> Your best bet is to truly go by the size needs for the niche of each animal you are trying to keep. So if a trio of leucs would work well in an 18x18x18, then make sure that whatever size paludarium you are creating has at least the same kind of volume and terrestrial area to it and then add the aquatic portion to that.
> 
> Most of the larger-clutch (15+eggs) breeders would appreciate some sort of running water and at least a small body of water. These species tend to be stream breeders (hence the larger clutches), so they are around water a lot. Like I mentioned before, Ameerega and epipedobates species are a great option.


I was thinking this as well. Is there any thing that is done to keep the PDFs out of the aquatic part specifically? 
I will have to look into this. I appreciate the feedback. I haven't even heard of Ameerega frogs before. Thanks.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

I don't think it's exactly a bad thing to have a water feature in a PDF viv IF done right. First of all you never want to downsize on the amount of land you need for a species to accommodate a water feature. Always consider it an addon to the land needed for a species. As to some of the complaints like water changes and flooding land....that can be avoided with some planning ahead of time. You will probably want to use a sump with one (especially if fish are kept in it, which tends to not be easy). so all you need is a standpipe drain to maintain constant water level. With a sump system water changes are much easier as well. Also if you have enough plants in the system (throw some pothos in the sump) and enough biofiltration in theory you would never see spikes of ammonia or nitrates that would necessitate water changes in the first place. Still a good idea to frequently monitor water conditions though. It's definitely not as easy as a straight terrestrial tank, but it's not that hard either with planning.

As far as them using it, there are some reports here and there of frogs using the ponds, the only thing to be careful of is if fights break out in the water so it's probably best also to stick with a group that you know doesn't have aggression problems towards each other (good rule of thumb anyway I guess).


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

An inch or two in depth is completely safe in my experience. A nice slope @ the shore will help a greatly. Nothing like watching Tads/Froglets growing and emerging from one. A well planned false bottom will eliminate any land flooding as well.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

I appreciate your input guys, and you are right. A sump would be much easier. When i think of a paludarium though, I think of more than just a water feature like a stream or waterfall, I think of a bottom full of water and fish and plants ect. I have seen this done all over the internet, some hold PDFs and fish and others don't seem to hold anything other than fish. I realize that there would need to be alot of planning in something like this for both fish and PDFs. The ones I have seen though seem to have open access to the water though. It looks like they have suspended the land parts above the water and have the water filled up to the land or just below. I realize that PDFs aren't accomplished swimmers. How could one keep the PDFs from drowning in a setup like this?


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

If you mix fish with PDFs it's a tricky ballgame. You need to be quite a understocked on fish for your total gallonage and you need to watch your parameters like a hawk. A pretty decent sized sump is a good idea. I'm sure it's fairly rare that they actually defecate in the water but when they do it will cause a spike that must be buffered and biofiltered quickly or the fish will stress. Frankly a lot of people that are doing it, probably aren't doing it right and are at least ending up with mildly stressed fish if not dead fish. It can be done right though, just takes planning.


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## Rushthezeppelin (Oct 6, 2015)

Also with regards to how they have it setup, they are using a false bottom and you have to ensure that the water level stays below that. Also short of fights in the water I've heard no reports of drowning from darts. There is one person on here who had a ton of them in a giant 1700 gallon setup that had a very large water feature (I think 400g with a ray in it). He never lost a single dart for years in the water that was over a foot deep and very expansive. I honestly think people don't give them credit for how well they do in the rare occasion they go swimming. They may not be as graceful as an african dwarf frog in the water, but they live in riparian areas often in nature, it's not like water is foreign to them.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

Rush, I think I may have seen the 1700 gallon tank with the frogs and rays before. It was amazing. The more research I do though, the more I think that something like that on a scale like that needs to be left to the people who can do 1700 gallon tanks. The more I look at it, the bigger it needs to be. lol

Thanks very much for all the advice. I apparently just can't make up my mind at all on what I want. Each frog has different needs, so the viv will need to be sized appropriately, and the plants (I assume) will need to reflect this as well. It's very daunting. Oh man, not to mention the live food cultures too.


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

irish said:


> 2) What specifically prompts people to say that paludariums for PDFs are just a flat no go.





irish said:


> It's very daunting. Oh man, not to mention the live food cultures too.


its not that paludariums for pdfs is a flat no go, its that once people fully understand the scope of the project, they usually decide for themselves that its a no go.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, I think that starting "small" and gaining skill would be in order before trying to do something like the 1700 gallon approach as previously mentioned. I have been an aquatic enthusiast for years and know my way around pretty well. (If I do say so myself)

But with frogs it seems like a completely different ballgame. I'm having a very hard time picking a frog to begin with, then everything else hinges on that. So it seems very hard to plan. I could tell you right now what I would use a tank for fish, and the next one, and the one after that. lol


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## macuser (Oct 8, 2015)

what are some other characteristics youre looking for in a frog? i'm sure people here can offer suggestions. you can also browse the frog classified section for ideas on whats readily available.


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## irish (Apr 7, 2008)

I have just put up another post in general asking about a specific frog and what kind it is. I really would like something bigger like an Auratus or a Tinctorius rather than a thumbnail to being with. The idea that i have is a very lush jungle look in a vivarium, but wide or tall depends on the frog. I do very much like the frogs with white and black contrasting colorations, but they seem either rare or unobtainable currently.


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## DorisSlammington (Jan 12, 2014)

irish said:


> I have just put up another post in general asking about a specific frog and what kind it is. I really would like something bigger like an Auratus or a Tinctorius rather than a thumbnail to being with. The idea that i have is a very lush jungle look in a vivarium, but wide or tall depends on the frog. I do very much like the frogs with white and black contrasting colorations, but they seem either rare or unobtainable currently.


large, black and white, likes water, loves dense plants. Sounds to me like the perfect frog for that is the Starry Night Reed frog. They like to lay eggs at a waters edge, they're easy the feed because they will except larger prey like pinhead crickets. they have a pleasant call and are very social, also they're as long as an adult's thumb from the last knuckle up. I'd say this frog is ideal. Not a PDF but still similar. Look at Josh's frogs.com


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