# Noob question about ffs



## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I've seen videos and read posts on culturing ffs. I've got the ingredients and there are some ffs on their way to me now. Should get them tomorrow. So I'm ready to get practicing.

Anyway, my question: in the posts and videos they show folding up coffee filters and other substances to go inside the culture. However, I haven't seen why that is done. What purpose does this item have? I think I would help me to do it right if I understood it better. 

Thanks


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## jig1 (Sep 7, 2008)

It gives the fruit flies a surface area to crawl on.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Aaah of course! Many thanks.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

frogface said:


> I've seen videos and read posts on culturing ffs. I've got the ingredients and there are some ffs on their way to me now. Should get them tomorrow. So I'm ready to get practicing.
> 
> Anyway, my question: in the posts and videos they show folding up coffee filters and other substances to go inside the culture. However, I haven't seen why that is done. What purpose does this item have? I think I would help me to do it right if I understood it better.
> 
> Thanks


The stuff you see them putting in makes more surface area for the flies to walk on. When the flies lay eggs it is down in the media. They hatch into larva which is down in the media, you will see them. Then they turn into flies. The extra surface area gives them more room to move and not be on top of each other. This is the simple reason why  More surface area = good fly culture


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you!


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Got my ffs yesterday and set them up using the recipe I found here: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/18630-fruit-fly-culturing-mini-howto.html

I used fiberglass window screen, scrunched up, rather than coffee filter. I used coffee filter to cover the top. I got one of those plastic set of drawers from Lowe's to put them in. I shook the full ff canister into the new ones. Not sure I got enough into them though.

They are sitting on top of paper towel that was sprayed with miticide.

Would you guys look at them and let me know if you think it's alright? I don't have frogs yet so there is plenty of time to change it around if I need to. 


























The reason I have them in a drawer


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## inflight (Jun 12, 2007)

My opinion is that there is too much screen in the cup. I would try it anyway and see what results you get. I would however make another culture(if possible) with a bit less screen, or try coffee filters they work great! I once crammed my first cultures with excelsior and it seemed that they died out rather rapidly after booming. 
again this is just my opinion from my experience...
Thom O


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thank you for the advice. I'll make a couple more with less screen. Then sit back and let them do their thing, or not.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I'd change the recipe you found just a little bit. Instead of white vinegar I'd use apple cider vinegar. I've found this increases the production in my cultures.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I'd change the recipe you found just a little bit. Instead of white vinegar I'd use apple cider vinegar. I've found this increases the production in my cultures.


That's good to hear, since apple cider vinegar is all I had in my cabinets. I figured, eh, apple, flies like that


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inflight said:


> I once crammed my first cultures with excelsior and it seemed that they died out rather rapidly after booming.
> Thom O


The scenario of the culture crashing after booming is more typically related to the genetics of the flies as culturing from the first emergences will rapidly select for a fly that is very intolerant of the conditions found in the cultures post emergence. It would be unusual for this to be due to the amount of climbing material in the cultures. 

Ed


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

I have good cultures with

water, vinegar, sugar, yeast and bran/oats.

instead of coffe filter I use wood wool.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Yay! My cultures crashed! No I haven't been drinking 

I made up the cultures posted above. Since that time I expanded to 4 more cultures. Then I pretty much ignored them except to peek at them occasionally.

Today, I took a look and found lots and lots of maggots but very few flies. This is a crash, right? That's part of the reason why I was hoping to get a crash, so I would know what it looked like. And, so I would be ready to respond if it happened after I get frogs.

So, I made up a few new containers and put what little bit of flies I could find into them. 

My question today is, should I be transferring some of the maggots from the previous cultures into the new ones? If not, please let me know why, because, I did move some of the bigger ones into the new cultures.

Oh another question. I see posts about ffs where people note they make up new cultures every weekend. I thought this was primarily because they had exhausted them by feeding them out to their frogs. Now I'm thinking maybe it's to keep them stable. Is this right? Should I be making new cultures each week and tossing the old, regardless?

As for the inserts, I am ditching the fiberglass screen. I had some big idea that I'd be washing the old containers and reusing. After today, no way! So I'll be using the much cheaper, standard coffee filter. 

Anyway, some lessons learned and very glad this happened before I got a frog. 

Thanks!


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

frogface said:


> Yay! My cultures crashed! No I haven't been drinking
> 
> I made up the cultures posted above. Since that time I expanded to 4 more cultures. Then I pretty much ignored them except to peek at them occasionally.
> 
> Today, I took a look and found lots and lots of maggots but very few flies. This is a crash, right? That's part of the reason why I was hoping to get a crash, so I would know what it looked like. And, so I would be ready to respond if it happened after I get frogs.


No, that's not really a crash. A crash in my book is when you end up with little to no offspring. Something happens which kills off the flies and their offspring, mites, mold, etc. It sounds like you have lots of maggots eating and starting the next generation of fly production. In looking at your photos, I agree that you likely have to much screening material in there.



> So, I made up a few new containers and put what little bit of flies I could find into them.
> 
> My question today is, should I be transferring some of the maggots from the previous cultures into the new ones? If not, please let me know why, because, I did move some of the bigger ones into the new cultures.


I understand your concern, not really knowing what to expect. In a week or so the maggots will start crawling up the sides of the jar and will then pupate, form into an encased chrysalis like structure where the larva will change into a fly.




> Oh another question. I see posts about ffs where people note they make up new cultures every weekend. I thought this was primarily because they had exhausted them by feeding them out to their frogs. Now I'm thinking maybe it's to keep them stable. Is this right? Should I be making new cultures each week and tossing the old, regardless?


No, not really. The flies will keep hatching out over a period of time, replenishing the number of new flies in the culture. They will feed, hatch some more, feed, etc. Folks do develop a routine about when they make up new cultures. It is a good habit to get into. Cultures are cheap to make up anywhere from 5 - 20 cents per culture, so in order to make sure that they have enough for their frogs they will make up new ones to keep ahead of the game and make sure that even if they get a crash, they have plenty of flies to feed. Some cultures I never end up using, because I have plenty for my frogs.




> As for the inserts, I am ditching the fiberglass screen. I had some big idea that I'd be washing the old containers and reusing. After today, no way! So I'll be using the much cheaper, standard coffee filter.


I wondered why you were using the screen, if you were planning on reusing it or something. Coffee filters work fine. I use spanish mass that I get at the dollar store. It is cheap, tends to hold up better then the coffee filters, but breaks down in my compost pile much faster and is much cheaper than excelsior. Many folks do just great with coffee filters so after you raise a few cultures, play around with things to see what you end up liking best. I use canning jars, with cut up paper towel squares held in place with the metal ring canning jar lids. It is cheaper than buying new cups all the time in that I never replace the jars, I just wash the jars in the dishwasher. I don't wash the metal ring lids as they tend to rust.




> Anyway, some lessons learned and very glad this happened before I got a frog.
> 
> Thanks!


You did a smart thing, starting to make up cultures before you got your frogs. Not everyone does, typically to the detriment of their frogs. Good job.

In reading through the Mini-How-To, which is did a great job with photos etc. there are a few things that I do that take less time and give me lots of flies.

*My recipe*
I use a modified version of the home made “Carolina Mix” which is similar to the recipe you use.

My original Fruit Fly Media
*Ingredients:*

1 cup of powdered sugar sifted
1 cup of Brewers yeast / Nutritional yeast
8 cups Instant Mashed Potato flakes.
4 cups of "Chick Starter Mash" (without antibiotics). _Not required but adds nutritional value._
2 - 3 tablespoons of cinnamon.

*My latest Recipe Ingredients:*

8 cups Instant Mashed Potato flakes.
4 cups of "Chick Starter Mash" (without antibiotics). _Not required but adds nutritional value._
1 cup of Powdered Sugar sifted
1 cup of Brewers yeast / Nutritional yeast
1 cup of Flax Seed
1 cup of Corn Meal
1 cup of Rice Meal
¼ cup Cinnamon.



*Discussion of some of the ingredients:*
I have found that I really like the cheapest brand of potato flakes that can be purchased at Walmart or in the bulk food section in stores like Winco. It seems that the cheaper they are, the better the texture is for our purposes. In the more expensive brands, the potato buds for example, while they may produce a thicker mashed potato with their larger flakes, I’ve found that these products seem to slow setting, gelling times for the culture and that when this happens some of the ingredients will invariably settle out down into the bottom. I really don't know if this separation affects FF nutrition or yields, but I like the quicker set times and I am guessing that the nutritional value of the flies will differ when the chicken mash and nutritional yeast settles to the bottom.. The cheaper brands while they may produce thinner mashed potatoes, they seem to allow my cultures set up much faster which allows the nutrients to stay well mixed within the substrate.


I get the baby chick starter mash a local farmers coop but I’m sure that they would have it at a farmer store like “Coastal”. A ten pound bag runs $1.50 - .$2.00 I found that running the chick mash through the blender made a world of difference in how well it mixes into the culture. Before blending, the mix tended to separate out very quickly and easily from the culture. Adding the Chick Starter Mash does help to increase nutritional value and the overall yield of the flies. It contains all of the nutrients needed for young baby chicks to grow quickly.


Without the cinnamon, the culture, as it progresses and ages, does tend to develop the smell, which is something like human excrement. The cinnamon helps to counteract this and the mixture will smell rather nice.


I mix everything in a big bowl by first adding together the Powdered Sugar, Brewers yeast, Flax Seed Meal, Corn Meal, Rice Meal, and Cinnamon and then mix everything. Then add the Potato Flakes and Chick Starter Mash, and blend everything well.

Then I store everything in gallon zip-lock bags or large 1 gallon plastic jars.

*The process:*
When making cultures, I use pint size canning jars which I cover with the canning lids and squares cut out of paper towels or napkins.

I used to add 4 teaspoons Tegosept or Methyl paraben to the media for mold prevention. I no longer add this.

Instead I have 12 oz. plastic pop bottle with a screw on lid which has lines marking ¼ cup increments marked on the side. To this I will add 50% water & 50%_ vinegar which does a fine job of preventing mold. _

I start off by microwaving ¼ of a cup of the Vinegar Water for each culture I am making. I nuke this for 30 seconds for each ¼ cup, but I've found that when I'm making more than one culture I may nuke it only for a minute. Sometimes it boils sometimes not, doesn't seem to matter a great deal.

While the water is heating, I add the media that I need to each culture jar.

For melanogaster, I put 1/8 cup of media mix into each pint jar.
For hydei because of their longer breeding cycle, I will add 1/4 cup of media mix into the pint jar.
After the water is hot.

For melanogaster which has 1/8 cup of media I'll add 1/4 cup of the hot vinegar water.
For hydei which has 1/4 cup of media I'll add 1/2 cup of hot vinegar water.
If the water was boiling, the mix will set within a few seconds. I may need to stir or shake the mix a little before it sets to make sure that all of the media is mixed and moist.

If I am only making one culture I will pop the culture back into the microwave for another 30 seconds. No need to cook the media for 10 minutes.

Depending upon your local climate, you may need to add more or less vinegar water. For folks in Arizona's desert you probably will need to add more water, those in areas with high humidity may need to add less.

After all the dry ingredients are added together, I make up all of the cultures I am going to use for the week, all at one time, all in a matter of a couple of minutes. I used to keep the unused ones in the refrigerator until I am ready to add flies. I now just cover them with a napkin, or a square cut paper towel, or a coffee filter.

I used to put the cultures in the refrigerator. Now I just put the covered culture on the shelf to cool until I'm ready to add the flies.

*Adding Flies:*
On days that I feed, I will make a new culture.

To the cooled medial, I shake out a pinch of bakers yeast to the top of each culture.
Then add a pupating media.

As far as pupating media, I don't use coffee filters or excelsior any more. I found that excelsior didn’t break down very quickly in my compost pile, so I started using "Decorative Spanish Moss." (Walmart or the Dollar Store) I find that it breaks down much quicker in the compost pile but does a great job for the life of the culture.

When I want to make a culture, out comes a jar, add the pinch of bakers yeast, in go 50 or so flies, re-cover with the paper towel square or napkin square, write the date when each culture was started on the paper towel and plop it to the back of the shelf rotating the cultures newest to the back / oldest to the front, all in less than 30 seconds.


I created an Media Culture Cost Calculator using MS Excel to track the costs of my cultures. My batches come out to about 6 to 10 cents per culture which includes the cost of the Spanish Moss. Your total costs will depend upon what you get your ingredients for, but for me, this mix produces the highest FF production at the overall cheapest costs.

Also, I have had only one culture that went moldy with the black mold of death in several years of using the formula.

Dusting the flies with products like Paprika is often used to dust the flies to increase the carotenoid content of the flies. In the past I’ve read that paprika might not be the best carotenoid to add, red chilli powder is another source that I have heard some have used, Others use products like Nekton Labs R Beta Red Color Bird Supplement which contain natural carotenoid Beta-carotene. I rotate my dusting with each feeding, one feeding I dust with vitamins, the next I dust with a calcium / vitamin D3 mix, etc. I actually use a coffee grinder to grind up calcium / vitamin D3 tablets as an inexpensive way to keep fresh dusting powder.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh wow, thank you so much! I've got this bookmarked


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## RMB (Nov 26, 2009)

The reason people make new cultures so frequently is so they have time to start producing before the old ones die off. At any one time you may have a couple cultures of different ages producing, and a couple getting ready to produce. This insures (hopefully) an uninterupted supply. Expect a culture to last 3-4 weeks or so for Melos, 4-6 for Hydei, and take at least a week to start producing, so you want to start a new one a week before the old one dies.


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## Josh (Apr 5, 2010)

Has anyone ever thought of using Fishing line all bundled up instead of coffee filters..would that work?


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## davecalk (Dec 17, 2008)

Josh said:


> Has anyone ever thought of using Fishing line all bundled up instead of coffee filters..would that work?


i don't see why it wouldn't work. Any reason you want to use something quite so expensive long term? Other products are much cheaper.


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## SmartyZ (Mar 16, 2010)

I'm new very new to this hobby and culturing FF's but I found a post on this board for a FF culture and I gave it a try and I'm very impressed with it.

I also bought a commercial medium and have been running a test to see which one works best and the winner is (in my limited experience)...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/47806-crazy-fruit-fly-mix-im-glad-i-tried.html

I've used the recipe posted above with both excelsior and coffee filters and surprisingly to me, the coffee filter cultures are producing twice the flies! Again, I in no way am trying to profess that I'm in any way shape or form a FF culturing guru. I'm only passing on what I've observed in my recent experience as a newbie.

The tests I've run so far are with melanos and I'm trying out the same mixes with hydei but I have not started a hydei culture using coffee filters yet; only excelsior.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm very glad I tried ffs way ahead of time. I'm happy with using coffee filters. They are working out just fine and a lot cheaper than fiberglass screen. Besides, I have a cabinet full of coffee filters that I have no other use for (switched to espresso machine).

The day of my last post, I moved my ffs to canning jars with coffee filters over the top (gotta use them up somehow!). I got as many flies as I could into each one (not many) and then scraped as many maggots as I could into them. 

I am happy to announce that today they are all thriving cultures. On the downside, I now have 16 thriving ff cultures and no frogs, lmao.


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Hey FrogFace!

To help answer your question why people would start a new culture every week i remembered see on one of the sponsor's sites a good chart explaining why it is good practice... here is the link it has alot of good reading material on culturing fruit flies
JL-Exotics | How to: Culturing Fruit Flies at www.shop.JL-Exotics.com

I also did photobucket of the chart just so everyone can see it without clicking that link i took the chart from jl-exotics.com 









I actually took this chart and printed it out and taped it to my sterilite drawer setup to help me keep track of my cultures also, i got these sterilite drawers that stack 7 high, on side on the bottom drawer (not on the drawer) i wrote with a magic marker WK1, and the one above that i wrote WK2, so on and so forth, until WK7. now all i have to do, is start a culture every friday, and move the drawers accordingly up. and i just dump the WK7's as they are now expired...

Its a good system jl-exotics has their, and you can incorporate your own method as on how to keep track of your FF setup... if i was to give someone a price estimate of the setup i have i would tell them 17$ for a organized, clean, and well setup FF culturing station. 

and if you put a half inch of water in the bottom of the drawers, and dont let the FF cultures touch the sides of the drawers and dont let the cultures touch each others lids, you wont have to buy mite spray or mite paper, and the water will prohibit mites from infesting your culture, saving you even more money on not having to purchase spray or paper. (water is also environmentally friendly  )


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## Nicholas (Mar 16, 2010)

Oh, BTW

excelsior is also a good alternative to coffee filters and screen. 1 bag lasts for literally a hundred cultures... its a bit more expensive but a little goes a long way and lasts for a long time, so thats why i buy it (i find that in the long run i would end up spending more on coffee filters then excelsior but thats my experience) and i have never had a culture crash after using excelsior, i agree with ed... it would make no sense for a culture to crash based on the "filler" material be it screen, coffee filters or excelsior.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Thanks. I might try excelsior once I run out of coffee filters.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Hey Guys

The chart is very good info but I would recommend throwing out cultures after 28 days. 

This in itself helps to control mites.


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