# Denatured Alcohol instead of toluene?



## quack (May 14, 2011)

I've been thinking about building a new viv sometime soon and was wondering if paint thinner(denatured alcohol) could be used instead of toluene, as I haven't found toluene anywhere in my area. Would I be able to use this or would there be some chemicals left in my viv due to its impurities?


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## bobrez (Sep 10, 2011)

Paint thinner and alcohol are two diferent things. What do you want to use it for? Toluene is used for thinning silicone, xylene will also work ive heard, thinner or alcohol will not.


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## quack (May 14, 2011)

I guess i forgot to mention that i was planning on using it for thinning silicone but thanks for the info anyway. I guess ill look for xylene and keep looking for toluene then.


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## aricall (Feb 5, 2010)

I think I just read on here someone posted they found it at sherwin williams I believe. But what is it used for exactly? Lol


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

Home Depot has something called Industrial Maintenance Coating Thinner that works fine.

Klean-Strip Automotive®

At least out here in the people's republic of california it's really difficult to find toulene -it's been banned for use in many applications.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

i wouldnt use that paint stripper. the naptha would worry me. your talking about something that not only affects the nervous system, but is quite irritating topically as well. the acetic acid is also powerfully corrosive and can cause a number of problems that can be fatal in both humans and animals.

Hazardous Components (Chemical Name) CAS # Concentration

1.Light aliphatic solvent naphtha (petroleum) 64742-89-8 15.0 -40.0 %
2. Acetic acid, ethyl ester {Ethyl acetate} 141-78-6 15.0 -40.0 %
3. Petroleum Hydrocarbons 64742-95-6 10.0 -30.0 %
4. 1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene {Pseudocumene} 95-63-6 7.0 -13.0 %
5. Xylene (mixed isomers) {Benzene, dimethyl-} 1330-20-7 1.0 -5.0 %


both toluene and xylene are derived from benzene. the difference is simply that toluene has a single methyl group in the first position and xylene has 2 methyl groups in the 1,2 /1,3 /or 1,4 positions.

they both should evaporate leaving minimal residuals behind. 

xylene is available at most hardware stores

james


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

Xylene too is banned by the people's republic of california.

Any of these things are incredibly nasty solvents that cause all sorts of problems with prolonged and repeated exposure. The "pure" versions definately evaporate and outgas much sooner than the mutilated versions allowed by CARB, but EVENTUALLY they do outgas.

If you've got access to the nastier chems, by all means use them -they are much more effective solvents than the adulterated versions


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## WeeNe858 (Sep 13, 2010)

So is this suitable? 

1 qt. Industrial Maintenance Coating Thinner-QKIM34630 at The Home Depot


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## erik s (Apr 12, 2010)

chin_monster said:


> Xylene too is banned by the people's republic of california.
> 
> Any of these things are incredibly nasty solvents that cause all sorts of problems with prolonged and repeated exposure. The "pure" versions definately evaporate and outgas much sooner than the mutilated versions allowed by CARB, but EVENTUALLY they do outgas.
> 
> If you've got access to the nastier chems, by all means use them -they are much more effective solvents than the adulterated versions


I have found it (xylene/toluene) here at Dixieline and a local hardware store in Ramona.....


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

I use mineral spirits, it works great, and is a lot cheaper too!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

James--are the mineral spirits safe to use??? It would be a whole lot easier to use than toulene...not to hijack, but when do we get Part 2 of the fan video???


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

chin_monster said:


> Xylene too is banned by the people's republic of california.
> 
> Any of these things are incredibly nasty solvents that cause all sorts of problems with prolonged and repeated exposure. The "pure" versions definately evaporate and outgas much sooner than the mutilated versions allowed by CARB, but EVENTUALLY they do outgas.
> 
> If you've got access to the nastier chems, by all means use them -they are much more effective solvents than the adulterated versions


The reason some places have banned them is due to the improper disposal of the solvents along with the long term risks they can pose to people... (see for example http://oehha.ca.gov/water/phg/pdf/xylen_c.pdf) 

Not only do those chemicals present a risk for things like neurotoxicity but they can interfere with DNA. 

If your going to use these materials you really need to make sure that you take the proper precautions during the use and subsequent outgassing. 

Ed


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Personally, I'd use an epoxy....

Instead of messing around with hazardous chemicals.


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Can someone explain the purpose of thinning the silicone? I've seen it mentioned around here a lot recently but I can't seem to figure out why this is the latest fad. 

Also how "thin" do you want it? Thin enough that you can brush it onto a background with a paintbrush instead of smearing with a gloved finger? I mean if it's too thin won't it pool into the cracks and recesses?

I ask because I've got a fix-all for the thinning issue that doesn't involve hazardous materials,VOC's, or otherwise anything nasty, I just need to know what properties/uses you are going for to see if it's worth bothering to investigate.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

VivariumWorks said:


> Can someone explain the purpose of thinning the silicone? I've seen it mentioned around here a lot recently but I can't seem to figure out why this is the latest fad.
> 
> Also how "thin" do you want it? Thin enough that you can brush it onto a background with a paintbrush instead of smearing with a gloved finger? I mean if it's too thin won't it pool into the cracks and recesses?
> 
> I ask because I've got a fix-all for the thinning issue that doesn't involve hazardous materials,VOC's, or otherwise anything nasty, I just need to know what properties/uses you are going for to see if it's worth bothering to investigate.


I'm puzzled as well;... So don't leave us hanging... 

Ed


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## ckays (Jul 26, 2011)

Curious as well...

. That stuff gets everywhere as it is. Why would I want it less viscous?

Silicone falls anyone..?


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Sorry bout' this  I did it on my build, and people liked the end result, so they want to use the same method. I definitely didnt come up with it though, I just seemed to make it popular. I keep telling peole it isnt neccessary, and that I only did it because I had hard to reach places on my background. Thinning it made application with a paintbrush possible, and gave me a longer working time before adding peat to the surface. There is a long discussion in my thread about how toluene is the only thinning agent that should be used because of its molecular composition... Also that proper precautions should be used when exposed to it. People dont read all +50 pages though so some things are missed. Cant blaim em' either lol


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## VivariumWorks (Feb 27, 2008)

Yea toluene is some nasty stuff. I've worked with it before as a thinner for silicone dyes for use in an air-brush. The organic vapor mask was almost not enough. Yuck.

I'll need to do a bit more testing but so far the preliminary tests of my theory seem to be holding well. Basically it involves extending the polymer chain rather than using a solvent. Main thing is I want to make sure that the final matrix's properties are still capable of meeting our needs. Adhesion, flexibility, etc...


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## chin_monster (Mar 12, 2006)

My take on thinning silicone is this:

First, it makes the "wet" silicon much easier to control. Second, I never got worthwhile results pressing peat/ coco into uncured silicon to make the results practical/ good looking, thinning the silicon and incorporating the fiber into the slurry solved this issue (doesn't work so well trying to mix fiber into unthinned silicon)

Toulene does seem to dissolve cured silicon which is at least somewhat problematic in an aquarium or at least the solvent releases the adhesive attachment. This does make clean up less problematic too though.

It's really not a good idea to do though, the fumes really are that nasty.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> Sorry bout' this  I did it on my build, and people liked the end result, so they want to use the same method. I definitely didnt come up with it though, I just seemed to make it popular. I keep telling peole it isnt neccessary, and that I only did it because I had hard to reach places on my background. Thinning it made application with a paintbrush possible, and gave me a longer working time before adding peat to the surface. There is a long discussion in my thread about how toluene is the only thinning agent that should be used because of its molecular composition... Also that proper precautions should be used when exposed to it. People dont read all +50 pages though so some things are missed. Cant blaim em' either lol


some of us reread the 50+ pages to get back up to speed...and enjoyed it all over again. The cautions on the use of Toluene is significant, so people are looking for a SAFE alternative to it. Epoxy is even more difficult to work with because of the "open" time with which to use it. Personally, although I was able to buy a gallon of the toluene, I'm scared to death to use it!!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Judy S said:


> some of us reread the 50+ pages to get back up to speed...and enjoyed it all over again. The cautions on the use of Toluene is significant, so people are looking for a SAFE alternative to it. Epoxy is even more difficult to work with because of the "open" time with which to use it. Personally, although I was able to buy a gallon of the toluene, I'm scared to death to use it!!


Don't be terrified to use it.. It just requires some common sense when using it. Don't pour excess down the drain or on the ground... take to a proper disposal location (for example, hazardous wastecollection days for some communities (or for us the local dump has a collection point for proper disposal). Use only in a well ventilated area (having your head stuck inside of a tank even if it is outside is not well ventilated) and if working closely with it, use a respirator. Don't smoke while using it... 

Ed


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I mean, if you have a good mask and can work outside its really not _that_ bad. The hassle arises when you cant actually move your tank outside and have to stink up your house. Within 4 hours of application, and a few fans blowing, the toluene smell was gone and only the gross vinegar silicone smell was left though.

You get the SAME end result using toluene when compared to just using straight silicone. It doesnt change the composition or anything, and evaporates completely. I will say, using toluene when trying to cover ropes works much better, because the ropes will actually absorb the mixture. Toluene isnt at all neccessary when trying to cover large surfaces or backgrounds without small details/crevices that are difficult to reach.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Judy S said:


> Personally, although I was able to buy a gallon of the toluene, I'm scared to death to use it!!


Personally, I'd take it back. I'm been using Toly (Slang) for most of my life. I wouldn't recommend it for viv building myself. You need to use it in open spaces, with a respirator, proper gloves and eye protection. If you've never worn a respirator make sure to follow the instructions in detail!

One other reason I wouldn't use it is the environmental impact. It has very high VOC emissions and I don't see the need to be introducing them into the environment just to build a background. They are trying to ban it altogether, but have been unable to come up with a substitute.

This is not a knock on what you did Grimm. You NEEDED it it for small spaces. Most of us don't. Let's give up the* new** "Toluene addiction"* people. 

My 2 cents...

Best

EDIT Wow I type slow. haha Two responses before I spit this one out^^^


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## FIT BMX (Jun 10, 2011)

The mineral spirits work very nicely, and evaporates out really well! I made some vines first for a test, and once dry there is no smell, and the silicone looks like nothing was ever added. Plus mineral spirits are not as harsh.

Pleas don't tell me there is a problem with it, or I will have to shoot my self!!!


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I did use mineral spirits yesterday mixed with silicone--was very pasty and not as easy to apply to the nylon rope as I had hoped...the silicone mix was pressed onto the roping, it did not stick very well just placed in the peat mix and rolled around... as you, hope that there are no real negative effects for having used it...


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## DrSalsa (Nov 4, 2007)

Subscribed to the thead! 
Been looking into this lately too. I cant find Toluene nor Xylene locally in any hardware stores, so was looking at other options. 

Found this page stating which solvents work with silicone: 
http://www.clearcoproducts.com/pdf/library/Solubility1.pdf

Before I saw the post, I tried pure ethanol on a little bit of silicone, and although it somewhat thinned it, and stuck a piece of wood, I could pick/peel it out easily after it dried (rather crubly/curdled texture). So no success, as the sheet above states. 

Mineral spirits (white spirit over here) is supposed to be a solvent for silicone, but would it leave any residues after drying? or would it all evaporate? It is less toxic than Toluene, Xylene or Turpentine. 

Those experimenting with mineral spirit, what was your veredict? Consitency and drying? 

Nik


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

I made a post a little while ago on the same subject. I cant buy xylene unless its in gallon jugs. I looked into acetone. anyone used it? its a simple ketone that is miscible in water and degrades with UV exposure, highly volatile and from research is used for evaporative purposed like we are looking for. similar to the benzene derivatives there is little residue to be left over unlike the mineral spirits that are full of everything under then sun. this is pure acetone fyi (there are always chances for contaminates). also, acetone has not been noted as a player in cancer, environmental issues (from what I can find) there is always a paper to refute something in the scientific world. But it seems less toxic than toluene and xylene...anyone got anything against it or fellow chem buffs see anything I have missed?


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Just emailed the site mentioned in your post...it pulled up a little chart...and the notation about the product led me to a company in Ohio...so I have emailed them for a small sample...would be a good (pardon the pun...wait...) solution to the thinning of silicone...


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts21.pdf

http://jmloveridge.com/cosh/Acetone.pdf


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not sure that you are going to get the thinning you really want with acetone since it is much much more polar than the benzene derivitives used in thinning silicone.... 

Ed


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

thats true its not fully dissolvable, ill give it a ago and report back and see how messy it is. even if its not a liquid it may still work...maybe.


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## CREEPlNG_DEATH (Nov 28, 2009)

So has anyone tried klean-strip odorless mineral spirits? I can't find toleune or xylene anywhere and this seems to be a better alternative. I am not sure if it would leave any sulfur residue or not. Any info on this would be greatly appreciated as I have a lot of vines I would like to get covered soon and it has to be done indoors.

Thank's Matt


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