# What weird things can I dust FFs with?



## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

So far I've been content with dusting only Herptivite and calcium with D3, but another frogger friend dusts with Naturose and Cyclopeez also which seems useful for color-enchancing-ness... And I've heard of paprika being used on FFs as well for similar reasons.

Would there be any benefit (or no harm) to dusting with things simply for possible enrichment? Say, bee pollen? Perhaps a little crushed fish flake? Some spirulina? 

I have a nifty small mortar and pestle so there are many possibilities. Is there a list somewhere of safe things to dust?


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## Mac (Aug 14, 2007)

great idea I would love to see what people say about it, but no I cant answer your question.


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## Mikee (Oct 23, 2007)

I might try cyclopeez now that you give me the idea i have a bunch that i use for my reef tank.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

we should probably just go ahead and direct this question right at Ed... haha, word on the street is that hes the man for this kinda stuff


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

I have read about someone who collected all sorts of bugs during the summer. he would feed the small and harmeless one to his frogs and put the rest in het freezer. in the winter he grinded all the collected bugs to get a powder an dusted the ff with this.
apparantly he could see a huge difference in his frogs (more vivid colors, very healthy frogs) but after a while his frogs started to get really fat. he believed this was because he collected the bugs from blooming plants and they where filled with nectar/(whatever it is the eat) and contained far too much sugars.

I have wanted to try this with the insects you can find freeze-dried or deep-freezed at the aquarium shops (as they are not nectar-feeders but do have a different nutritional content I presume) but haven't gotten around to researching this a bit more.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

NathalieB said:


> I have read about someone who collected all sorts of bugs during the summer. he would feed the small and harmeless one to his frogs and put the rest in het freezer. in the winter he grinded all the collected bugs to get a powder an dusted the ff with this.
> apparantly he could see a huge difference in his frogs (more vivid colors, very healthy frogs) but after a while his frogs started to get really fat. he believed this was because he collected the bugs from blooming plants and they where filled with nectar/(whatever it is the eat) and contained far too much sugars.
> 
> I have wanted to try this with the insects you can find freeze-dried or deep-freezed at the aquarium shops (as they are not nectar-feeders but do have a different nutritional content I presume) but haven't gotten around to researching this a bit more.


This is a complex topic where a lot of things overlap. In the comment above, it is more probable that he was overfeeding the frogs. This is very common in this hobby and the frogs have surprisingly low metabolic needs (one of the reasons they may not get grossly obese is due to the complexity of the enclosures but in general the frogs are overfed). 

To start out, you need to keep in mind that as you change the components of the supplement you can change not only the metabolism but the vitamins and minerals needed to keep the diet balanced (anurans with some exceptions have basically the same metabolic needs as do domestic animals) so for example, if you consistantly increase the protien level in the diet by adding bee pollen you can modify the circulating insuline levels.... 

So to start out you need to be aware of what is in the item you are adding to the diet, (more fat, more protien, increased carotenoids, increased one or more fat soluable vitamins... and so forth) then you should check to see what the possible effects on the diet are (for example, some items can contain levels of phytoestrogens which can cause endocrine disruptions). 
With respect to spirulina, this contains high levels of beta carotene and lesser amounts of some other carotenoids so it can increase levels of yellow and maybe orange colors but you are already supplying a lot of beta carotene in the dusting supplements. 
Cyclopeeze is a source of astaxanthin which is a good colorant for reds in the frogs but not all the frogs will change colors once they are adults. A better source of astaxanthin can be found in Nature Rose (search astaxanthin). 
Using the commercially available insects isn't going to do much good as they are not going to have good soures of carotenoids (yes they have been analyzed). Some people do have good results with meadow plankton but it can depend on where and what you are collecting and you need to also have access to areas well away from pesticide and herbicide usages. Also when frozen, carotenoids can oxidize and become useless over time unless properly stored. 

There is nothing wrong with experimenting but for the health of the frogs and to prevent wasting money, you should pay attention to what is in the changes and what it may do... 
There is a lot we don't know about amphibian nutrition but to increase our knowledge we need to learn in a methodical manner. 
Also paprika is a good source of beta carotene but is not that great for red colors because the carotenoids in paprika are polar carotenoids and are not well absorbed... 
(most of this has been covered multiple times in different threads often under a number of titles, do a search for beta carotene or astaxanthin or color supplementing, or supplements or dusting....) 

Also keep in mind that as you use other sources of items (like fish food) you are also not dusting the flies with a vitamin/mineral supplement (depending on the regimen you have chosen) and as a result maybe causing deficiencies in the diet of different vitamins and minerals. Fish food is not balanced with frogs in mind.... 
It is a complex topic and changes should be well thought out before leaping off the deep end... 

Ed


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

Thanks for the responses and the super detailed post Ed... I figured this was probably a complex question. I'm not dead set on changing what is already working for me, and I certainly don't want to experiment with my frogs. The ground-up meadow plankton does seem neat though - just extra insect bits. I probably won't be sprinkling bee pollen on any FFs soon.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

In addition to the standard vitamin and mineral supplements, I dust regurlarly with naturerose, less often with spirulina, and occassionally with a special carotenoid rich powder I made by dehydrating various fruits and vegetables and grinding them with mortar and pestel. I forget the exact ingredients but it is on DB somewhere under color enhancement. I've also dusted with paprika in the past. Mostly my standard dustings are vitamin powder, calcium, and Naturerose (which I am a huge fan of).

Spirulina and Naturerose are spiked into fruit fly media in a somewhat random way.


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## stevemc (Aug 13, 2007)

I routinely dust FF with Repti cal and same brand vitamin powder, and I also feed fine ground Cyclopeez and reef flake fish food to freshly hatched crickets. Their bellies are pinkish orange and red. Th eflake food has axanthin? in it, plus all kinds of stuff. I have a dedicated Krups coffee grinder just for that. I also feed the crickets a few shakes of paprika. In the winter-starting about now when citrus is ripe, I have several grapefruit trees and I start a pile of rotten fruit. I dont spray any poison and nobody nearby does either. I use a net I made from a 5 gallon paint strainer sewn onto a wire coathanger, and net 1000s of wild fruitflies. There will be a constant cloud of fruitflies around it. Just swing the net around quickly to catch about a heaping tablespoon full of them. I feed these by putting the full net in the freezer for about 15 seconds, which stuns them. Then I dump them into a big plastic cup with a pinch of cal or vit powder and shake it and pour in. I also do occaisional meadow sweeping and kill any big stuff-wasps, ants etc, and do the same with the wild-freezer and stun. It is getting harder to find a known organic field that you can get access to. I find that the flies really move around compared to flightless types which just crawl around slowly. It makes the frogs actually hunt. Only problem is when you open it up-make sure most are eaten, they get in the house, and sometimes end up floating in a glass of wine. Good thing my fiance likes the frogs as much as me, and she just takes them out like nothing happened! I open a door early in the morning and let the flies fly outside, before many lights come on. I havent done the wild insect thing for a while, but it really does supplement them well. I also collect termites and feed them as often as possible. It has been a drought here in Florida for a couple years now, so they arent real common. I dig a hole in the ground near a known termite log or spot, away from homes etc, and put a coil of cardboard in and cover good and wait a few weeks. That really makes them lay good, and put on weight and grow. A big can of termites will last a long time.


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

Ed said:


> it is more probable that he was overfeeding the frogs. This is very common in this hobby and the frogs have surprisingly low metabolic needs (one of the reasons they may not get grossly obese is due to the complexity of the enclosures but in general the frogs are overfed).


possibly but apparantly the frogs didn't get fat anymore when he collected insects that hadn't been on flowering plants.
this has made me wonder about the pea aphids I use as basic food for all my big frogs: wouldn't they contain a lot of sugar too?
or do you think sugar is not a real problem for our frogs?

I am well aware of the fact that it's a very complicated topic and I haven't gotten around to digging into it some more but it seemed interesting enough to further explore when I have more time. (not for color-enhancing specifically but for an upgrade of the frog's diet in general)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

For a couple of years at several of the IADs I did a presentation on Amphibian Nutrition and what we don't know. 

With aphids, they tend to excrete the excess sugars.. 
Even with the anecdotal comment about the flowers, it is likely to have been due more to caloric intake that anything else. (to get an idea of how easy it is to over feed 
see http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... s&start=15

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... s&start=15 

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ight=ohaus

Ed


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

Ed, I used to buy vegetable powder for my fruit fly cultures from this place:

http://www.barryfarm.com/veggies.htm

According to what you said about oxidization, are dried fruits and vegetables worthless? I know what you said about paprika not doing jackcrap for coloration, but I'm assuming the vitamin content gets damaged too? 

The carrot powder from Barry Farm is "drum-dried." The site gives a brief description how each product (either drum, air, or freeze dried) is dried. 

I will say, everytime I add paprika, carrot, or beet powder, it really boosts production of fruit flies. So, even though I don't pay much attention to coloring up my frogs, I have found it to be an excellent source of getting good fruit fly production. I have not had good luck using spirulina or herptivite to my media.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

They aren't worthless right away but like supplements over time (which can vary depending on how and where they are stored) the will lose thier value. 

Depending on the moisture and fat content, dried vegetables and fruit (that are not refrigerated after opening) typically have shelf lives around 6 -9 months (average some are longer). This can be expanded if the containers are air tight, oxygen is removed from the container and it is kept below 70 F. 

Dried herbs are recommended to be replaced about every 6 months as they lose flavor..... (this is an indication that they are also losing other ingredients....) 

I have no problem getting massive fly production with spirulina but then I don't add too much to the mix. Keep in mind that you may also be selecting the flies to boom on the vegetable media. 

Ed


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

Ed said:


> With aphids, they tend to excrete the excess sugars..


Ed, would you mind explaining how this affects the frogs? I have been culturing pea aphids but haven't fed with them yet.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Corpus Callosum said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > With aphids, they tend to excrete the excess sugars..
> ...


I don't think it really affects the frogs (with respect to the sugar). People need to be aware that with the aphids, they are actually having to pass sugars as they are ingesting them in excess (at levels that if they tried to utilize all of the sugar, it would be at levels sufficient to kill them). This is the honeydew or "lerp" produced by aphids. The limiting growth portion of the aphid diet are actually the diluted minerals in the sap which is why they have to process so much sap to meet thier needs. (this is also why aphids often prefer to be located at the growing points of the plants...)


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## Nick K (Jan 3, 2008)

I have a question for more experienced frog keepers:

How do you determine whether or not one is overfeeding, before the frogs start looking fat?

Is there a general schedule you follow depending on frog size or species?


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Anyone concerned w/ feeding aphids I can assure you they will not make your frogs fat. Or at least not in a practical setting. On the other hand I wouldn't make it the basis for a dart diet. I think of them as vitamins, not a whole lot of meat to them, but they contain some of the harder to come by/less common nutrients (as far as for what most commonly feed i.e. farmed/artifically raised insects).


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stchupa said:


> but they contain some of the harder to come by/less common nutrients (as far as for what most commonly feed i.e. farmed/artifically raised insects).


On what data do you based that statement? 

Ed


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

Ed said:


> On what data do you based that statement?
> 
> Ed


The usual..

me own..


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## NathalieB (Apr 23, 2007)

From personal experience I can tell you: aphids can and will make your frogs fat (I wouldn't know why not, I think it's a question of quantity, no?)

And I am very curious why you wouldn't make it the basis for a frog's diet?

I feed my azureus mainly pea aphids (I also feed dusted large and small ff regularly and occasionally waxmoth larvae, RFB larvae and beetles, firebrats and bean beetles and there are different types of springtails and woodlice living and reproducing in their viv, but aphids make up the biggest part of their diet) and they look very healthy and produce healthy offspring. 

This is pure anecdotal but when my aphid-cultures crashed and I switched to ff as base of their diet for a few months they didn't produce any healthy tadpoles that made it into frogs (usually tads didn't make it out of their egg). of course there can be other, unknown, elements that have influenced this and my observations are far from scientific, but a few weeks after resuming feeding aphids they started producing good clutches again.

Not to say you are wrong about them not being a good base for their diet… I just would like to know why you say this, because maybe I should change my feeding habits. After all I am culturing the aphids only 18 months or so, so I don’t know about long-term effects.


@Ed: thank you for the links to those interesting threads. It has given me a good starting point for my search. Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

stchupa said:


> Ed said:
> 
> 
> > On what data do you based that statement?
> ...


So there isn't any supporting documentation? 

So what different nutrients are you proposing that the aphids are retaining that are lacking in other feeders? 


Ed


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

So there isn't any supporting documentation? [/quote]

There may be, none that I know of other than personal comparable observational results . The documentation that might should be of interest is what are the nutritional values of the plants being fed and the comprised value of the soil in which sown/raised. That would as well include the viability/nutritional richness of the seeds used and where they came from/ parent plant health.

But in reality it just falls into the catagory of "CS". Then to publish any 



> So what different nutrients are you proposing that the aphids are retaining that are lacking in other feeders?
> 
> 
> Ed


That's just it, they probably don't retain much if any more true value in the tissues. Then again, maybe the tissues of an aphid out weight the mineral density of most of our feeders, I don't know. I don't have access of ways to scientifically measure these things w/ a solid #. I'll explain it the best I can w/ things we can all know as fact. Compare to a cricket, the mineral density of the skeloton may far outweigh that of an aphid, but the protein in the chitin of an aphid is going to be much easier to fully digest in order to release the locked mineral content (just to thrown in mites for the same reason[chitin:mass ratio/chtin stabiltiy], which I see as essential for rearing pumilio w/ what I would consider to be the only exceptable results (e.i. no dead/weak froglets). But that's not my interest w/ aphids it's more what they are ingesting, as soon as they ingest it. They are basically just a sac which is mostly water. OOOh water. Although still mostly water when broken down while taken by the aphid the plant fluids are more concentrated in the aphid than the plant. So I look at it as a soup of living water packaged fresh, alive, some what comparable to a cricket gut-loaded w/ algae/greens (chlorophyll), but now hopefully you can see my point. MMMM plant bloood. But again what makes it different than feeding most "cultured" insects is just that, they are about the furthest thing we (at least me) have from cultured insects we rear/feed ourselves (gruel) and the closest thing we have to what we all are trying to always get (or should be), feild plankton. Not so seperated from passing on it's living environment. Sugar is the spice of life.

This would also similarily apply to other less often used feeders, such as mites, scale, mealy, moth/butter/fly larvae (those that feed off live plants), beetles and perhaps some weevils, herbivorous aquatic larvae (tads). One subject that should give hope to all people (the "pest" of all "pests") are things like grazing isopods (this if they have somethings to graze on [i.e. algae moss]), but even then I would suspect w/ the often heavy availability of poop/detris they would be more inclined to feed on the decaying, odor procing. Something to think about when trying to rid a tank of algae which could (very 'directly') effect /up set supporting niches to what could've been ongoing stable developement in process. Not only that but established mosses/algae will continue to support an otherwise non-existant niche while specialized bacteria/fungi colonize and filter biomass which then adds the attraction needed for it to be further converted eventually/ hopefully ending w/ the frog.

I could end up writing an entire assessment here if I don't stop.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Why would you say they didn`t supply different micronutrients?
Every different feeder has a different makeup. If you fed crickets pea plants they may be able to supply a diiferent, more common to pea aphid nutritional value(other than the makeup of the skeleton ratio etc.)
Every cricket I feed has a different nutritional value. You can tell by the color. Orange means their filled w/ carrot, green means turnips greens, purple means their filled w/ arugula?, black and red means fish food and brown is dog food. Comparing their gut content weight compared to their body mass would give you the percentage of "other" nutrients compared to a starved cricket.
Another correction from a former post I can`t find:
Ed you say springs eat bacteria and fungi exclusively, correct? And can`t be gutloaded?
I can dump a pile of vit-all gutload in a spring culture and the pile is gone in under 1 hour. How can these springs not be feeding on the pollend, ground herbs and such present in the hi vitamin feed. It`s not in there long enough to furnish bacterial and fungal growth before it`s eaten. 
All the things you feed your frogs are different, slightly, according to gut content alone. A starved fly isn`t going to have the same nutritional value as a fat, well fed one.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> Why would you say they didn`t supply different micronutrients? Every different feeder has a different makeup..


I was initially questioning the following statement by stchupa 
snip "but they contain some of the harder to come by/less common nutrients (as far as for what most commonly feed i.e. farmed/artifically raised insects)."endsnip

There is not a single bit of reliable data supporting this idea. 

Now onto your idea there... different feeders do have different makeups I am not saying that they don't what I am getting on here is the idea that they supply "harder to come by/less common" micronutrients. 

With respect to any amphibians what are the harder to come by micronutrirents? 
What are we referring to here? 
If someone is going to make a statment like that I want to know what micronutrients and where the data came from.... otherwise its at best an anecdotal observation and at worst a bunch of bull....

Looking at this idea about micronutrients we first have to understand that this means that the animal only needs very small amounts to meet its metabolic needs..(for example copper in tiny amounts is needed for some enzymes but above that amount you poison the animal..) and most animals are efficient at scavenging these nutritents out of any sources. If you are dusting with a good quality supplement then you will already be meeting the micronutrient needs as these are well supplied by good quality supplements (as it has already been shown that frogs and other amphibians are well within the known paramaters of what is required for thier nutrition). 





frogfarm said:


> a If you fed crickets pea plants they may be able to supply a diiferent, more common to pea aphid nutritional value(other than the makeup of the skeleton ratio etc.) ..


Why? On what level are you making this assumption? 




frogfarm said:


> Every cricket I feed has a different nutritional value. You can tell by the color. Orange means their filled w/ carrot, green means turnips greens, purple means their filled w/ arugula?, black and red means fish food and brown is dog food.


All because the carotenoid and flavenoid content in the media causes a different pigment to show through the gut wall of the cricket does not automatically mean that you have changed the nutritional value of the cricket in a significant way. 



frogfarm said:


> Comparing their gut content weight compared to their body mass would give you the percentage of "other" nutrients compared to a starved cricket.


Starved crickets (even those starved for a short time) on analysis show losses of fats, protiens and some minerals by feeding the crickets you are enabling the cricket to replace these items but simply offering them different greens does not mean that you are significantly modifying the overall nutrition of the cricket. There was an analysis done using caterpillars where they were analyzed with and without gut contents... fat and protien levels were very similar between the two (there were other similarities but I can't remember all of the details off hand). 



frogfarm said:


> Another correction from a former post I can`t find:
> Ed you say springs eat bacteria and fungi exclusively, correct? And can`t be gutloaded?.


Actually I have never said they cannot be gut loaded (if you look into the frognet archives there should be a reference I posted on modifying the springs HUFA content. I do have singificant questions about how effective the type of gutloading people try... 



frogfarm said:


> I can dump a pile of vit-all gutload in a spring culture and the pile is gone in under 1 hour. How can these springs not be feeding on the pollend, ground herbs and such present in the hi vitamin feed. It`s not in there long enough to furnish bacterial and fungal growth before it`s eaten..


Aaron, I can easily question the time of conversion by fungal and other items..(see immediately below this) 

Have you considered the idea that the springtails are only consuming part and are ignoring the rest? Given that they can graze on bacteria its an indication that they can concentrate on very small items. 
That the other items may be masticated into smaller pieces that dissapear into the substrate? (given how small an item can be consumed?) Or after mastication are absorbed by items growing on the substrate (like bacterial colonies and fungal hyphae)? 

The bottom line is that you don't know what the springtails are actually consuming out of a mixture of different sized particles. You also don't know what the moisture in the colony is doing to the mixture (such as making some particles lose cohesion or degrade in other ways) or are being mechanically degraded and which are being consumed. 
My first thoughts might be that the springtails are feeding on it to gain access to calcium for chitin synthesis...and that anything else consumed is secondary at best (most springtail culture recipes are calcium deficient). 
We also don't know the excretion rate of the springtails.. 




frogfarm said:


> All the things you feed your frogs are different, slightly, according to gut content alone. A starved fly isn`t going to have the same nutritional value as a fat, well fed one.


I don't think I have ever argued against this general idea.. 
I do however have problems with statements that are cannot be supported by any evidence... (such as the beginning of this post).... There is too much voodoo in this hobby as it is without deliberately adding more to the mix. 

Ed


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## Thinair (Aug 27, 2005)

Thank you for all of your input on this tricky subject, Ed.

I'm considering getting a bumper sticker that reads "W.W.E.D?" (What Would Ed Do?)


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'm not so sure I would want that on a bumper sticker... I have some knowledge about nutrition and some other aspects of the husbandry processess but there are definetly things I defer to other people over (for example I don't have a lot of experience with egg feeders and would happily defer to Aaron on that topic...). 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Unfortunately, I have no evidence over what I see. I believe the fungi and bacteria can double at alarming rates. Maybe they do scatter a bunch or it liquifies and gets colonized quickly. 
If 1/2 the body weight is in the gut the nutritional value of the gut should weigh equal to the weight of the crickets nutritional value. Things like pinkies may have a belly full of milk and that may up the calcium value of a well fed pinkie but overall it`s miniscule comparatively. Such as a human, maybe up to 3-5 pounds of food in a 200 or more pound person. Big cats may compare(eating up to 1/4 their body weight if I remember correct, maybe it was less), but they eat something similar, I imagine in makeup to them.
I learned tonite on nat`l geo channel that a female mosquito can suck down 4x it`s weight in blood. The protein level(i guess amount) of a well fed compared to an un fed mosquito would have to be much higher. If mosguitos normal mineral and vit, protein, etc levels are close to that of human blood than that wouldn`t change the overall comparison much but a cricket that oozes green when you pick it up may have maybe 1/4 of there body weight in there gut? More maybe? I always thought of insect just being machines carrying a cross section of the plant nutrients of the forest to the frogs. The nutritional makeup of plant and insect should be quite different? I always though most insects generally held more in the gut/body weight ratio. 
I agree pea aphids probably don`t exist in darts environs and as for micronutrients, I don`t know. I never used them and I guess they get them elsewhere from crix, springs, isos and ff`s.
I just have a hard time trusting the quality of unregulated vitamins and minerals and their solubility and how they react w/ the micronutrients/ metals in the mix over time. What`s to keep them from missing d3 in a batch of calcium or letting the vit sit in contact w/ air long enough to oxidize the vit c and other volatile? vitamins or post marking expiration dates. I hear most of our vit supps are crap what`s the hope for good pet vitamins and minerals?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

> (for example I don't have a lot of experience with egg feeders and would happily defer to Aaron on that topic...).


Thanks, but it`s mostly a zen thing. I`m an observational scientist. I observe and try to draw conclusions, definately pseudoscience. Beyond set up and care you`ve got me on diseases, nutritional requirements and a bunch of other aspects of any of these frogs. I just breed them well. :lol: 
If we get someone to apprentice under you then apprentice under me, in a couple years we could make a superfrogger! :lol:


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> Unfortunately, I have no evidence over what I see.?


This is a very important statement (and you are one of the few who will make it..). This statement is what we are often lacking in the discussions here leading to voodoo frog keeping... If people would keep in mind that much of this is not hard science then a lot of issues would be avoided. 



frogfarm said:


> If 1/2 the body weight is in the gut the nutritional value of the gut should weigh equal to the weight of the crickets nutritional value..?


The only problem with this assumption is that in practice most of this will be water weight. Digestion is by working in a solution and this means that the nutrients are automatically diluted. This is why nutritional analysis are often expressed as dry weight numbers. Unlike fat and some other nutrients which can be stored in quantity in a cell moisture is being added and the cells are being broken down... 



frogfarm said:


> Things like pinkies may have a belly full of milk and that may up the calcium value of a well fed pinkie but overall it`s miniscule comparatively...?


But keep in mind that a small amount of calcium may be all that is needed to modify the calcium to phosphorus ratio. 




frogfarm said:


> More maybe? I always thought of insect just being machines carrying a cross section of the plant nutrients of the forest to the frogs. The nutritional makeup of plant and insect should be quite different? I always though most insects generally held more in the gut/body weight ratio. ...


If you want I can dig up that caterpillar reference... 




frogfarm said:


> I just have a hard time trusting the quality of unregulated vitamins and minerals and their solubility and how they react w/ the micronutrients/ metals in the mix over time. What`s to keep them from missing d3 in a batch of calcium or letting the vit sit in contact w/ air long enough to oxidize the vit c and other volatile? vitamins or post marking expiration dates. I hear most of our vit supps are crap what`s the hope for good pet vitamins and minerals?


This is a rational fear.. and normally nothing except that places Zoos do test samples of the stuff and won't use those that are outside the parameters.. 

Ed


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## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Alright - this thread was cleaned up. 

All posts to DB must fall within terms of the UA that everyone read and agreed to when they signed up. It can be found here: http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13738

If you disagree with a point that is being made - then present contradictory evidence (anecdotal, published, etc.) - and keep the discussion civil. 

And for those that are unsure, resorting to personal attacks or name calling generally fails to add credence to your argument :roll:


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

I know this doesn't exactly fall under the dusting category, but maybe someone warn me of any long-term problems, I've been doin it for 6 months. I'm currently using the premade FF mix from Ed's Fly Meat and split the recomended mixture into 2 cultures(1/6cup each). Every time I make the 2 cultures (1WL, 1Glider), I squirt 5 drops into each from a 4mg astaxanthin softgel then add the water(1/4 cup) to swirl the mix. It turns orange and deffinatly gut loads the maggots. The mags seem to eat faster. It might be the safflower oil in the "pills" that helps me most. The dusting powder realy sticks to the FFs, often for a few days. Another plus is that it makes cleanig cultures easier. I get a few caseing that stick to the lid, everything else just slides out.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

IN2DEEP said:


> I know this doesn't exactly fall under the dusting category, but maybe someone warn me of any long-term problems, I've been doin it for 6 months. I'm currently using the premade FF mix from Ed's Fly Meat and split the recomended mixture into 2 cultures(1/6cup each). Every time I make the 2 cultures (1WL, 1Glider), I squirt 5 drops into each from a 4mg astaxanthin softgel then add the water(1/4 cup) to swirl the mix. It turns orange and deffinatly gut loads the maggots. The mags seem to eat faster. It might be the safflower oil in the "pills" that helps me most. The dusting powder realy sticks to the FFs, often for a few days. Another plus is that it makes cleanig cultures easier. I get a few caseing that stick to the lid, everything else just slides out.


What else is in the soft gel? 
The problem is there isn't any way to quantify how much of anything is being passed on with the flies unless they are analyzed which requires rigerous controls of the culturing (so the stage being analyzed is as close to the same age as possible), large amounts (about 1kg of the flies at the right stage) and a lot of money. 
That said, the data on astaxanthin indicates that it is safe in moderately high levels (see my post here http://www.dendroboard.com/general-disc ... 08-15.html ) unless you have metabolic issues like those seen in smokers and alcoholics. 

Ed


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Thanks for the reply Ed.

Each soft gel contains: Calories 5 (from fat 4 +or- 1%)), Vit. A 105IU, Vit E 50IU, BioAstin 4 mg (from haematoccus pluaialis Extract), Luitein 40 mg, + Other ingredients Saflower oil, geletin, Gelatin, Glycerin, Water, Carbo Extract. some ingredients get lost since I pitch the caseing and and 1 softgel supplies 2 culures.

Unfortunately I don't think using astaxathin will ever benefit the coloration of my PDFs I keep (blue and brone colors). From my observation, it seems to benifit my FF cultures the most. The production rate is predictiable, development seems to be accelerated, and cleaning a culture is now much easier for me. The oil in the mix seems to the best by-procuct. The FFs are sticky and the "dust" is hard for them to remove. I plan to keep the FFs and PDFs on this "system/experiment" and time will tell. I'll update when if I run into a problem. Thanks, again!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

IN2DEEP said:


> Thanks for the reply Ed.
> 
> Each soft gel contains: Calories 5 (from fat 4 +or- 1%)), Vit. A 105IU, Vit E 50IU, BioAstin 4 mg (from haematoccus pluaialis Extract), Luitein 40 mg, + Other ingredients Saflower oil, geletin, Gelatin, Glycerin, Water, Carbo Extract. some ingredients get lost since I pitch the caseing and and 1 softgel supplies 2 culures.


If the luitein is a misspelling of lutein then it is another carotenoid known to be converted to retinol (vitamin A) however if the vitamin A in the capsule is retinol then you need to be careful that you are not upsetting the ratio of vitamin A to D3 to E in the diet (this should be 10:1:0.1) as this can lead to a form of calcium insufficiency. This is why I was asking as to what else is in the soft gel. 

Ed


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## IN2DEEP (Aug 7, 2007)

Ed, I misspelled a few words. (I had my beer goggles on last night.) It should have been Lutein. This is what I'm using: http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdet ... m_id=17101 The Nutritional Info box on the bottle lists Vitamin A(100% as Natural Beta-Carotene)** 105 IU, **Equivalent to Vitamin A-Retinol activity (RE). Their page on astaxanthin, http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php?actio ... m_id=19979 , is intriguing. So is the process on how astanthin is harvested, I saw it on Discovery Channel's Dirty Jobs: Micro-Algae man.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

IN2DEEP said:


> Ed, I misspelled a few words. (I had my beer goggles on last night.) It should have been Lutein. This is what I'm using: http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdet ... m_id=17101 The Nutritional Info box on the bottle lists Vitamin A(100% as Natural Beta-Carotene)** 105 IU, **Equivalent to Vitamin A-Retinol activity (RE). Their page on astaxanthin, http://www.nowfoods.com/index.php?actio ... m_id=19979 , is intriguing. So is the process on how astanthin is harvested, I saw it on Discovery Channel's Dirty Jobs: Micro-Algae man.



Okay lutein is fine. As the vitamin A is supplied as beta carotene (and lutein) then it won't cause any disruptions in the calcium metabolism. 

With respect to the increased production of ffs.. people should also keep in mind that the flies will adapt (within reason) to your culture methods which can increase production over time (one of the most common is the initial boom and subsequent failure of the colony to continue to produce due to selecting the flies from the initial hatch as this rapidly selects for flies that are rapid maturing and intolerant of high levels of ammonia in the media (which is why production goes down when after the intial boom and die off). The fact that the flies hold the dust longer may not be as much help as you would like with respect to the fat soluable vitamins as these vitamins can show increased oxidation rates in warm humid enviroments.. 

Ed


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