# explain the blue jeans debate



## RentaPig311 (Jul 6, 2009)

So I told my wife to pick out some frogs she likes and of course she picked blue jeans. Anyway I saw in another post that they are quite expensive and haven't been exported for 10 years. I'm not a beginner but I'm far from expert. I've lost two frogs and I'm not gonna kill a $400 frog. I remember a long time ago there was a huge debate about someone selling fake blue jeans for $90. I tuned out and never got to see the end of the debate. Is there a look alike frog being sold as blue jeans? If so what's the difference? Id like to get some of them if they are of the pumillo species to practice with.


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

There are quite alot pumilio morphs that can confused with blue jeans: cristobal, almirante but most of all black jeans. In my book, the 'real' blue jeans are from Costa Rica, pretty big and have bright blue legs. You'll often see black jeans being sold as blue jeans. 

Anyway, i don't think this morph qualifies as a 'beginner' pumilio.


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

If someone is selling black jeans , please let me know where.
Thanks,
Daryl


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## RentaPig311 (Jul 6, 2009)

Thanks for the quick good info. Black jeans would be great for us. Any suggestions on beginer pumillos?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

ErikHa said:


> There are quite alot pumilio morphs that can confused with blue jeans: cristobal, almirante but most of all black jeans. In my book, the 'real' blue jeans are from Costa Rica, pretty big and have bright blue legs. You'll often see black jeans being sold as blue jeans.
> 
> Anyway, i don't think this morph qualifies as a 'beginner' pumilio.


U wont often see 'black jeans' for sale. True Siquirres blk jeans pumilio are rare, which is what Daryl is trying to say 

CR Blue Jeans are not a common frog, nor has there been a lot of success in breeding them consistently, hence the cost.

Now there are a number of great 'beginner' pumilio like Bastis, Cayo/Yellow belly, Man creeks that can all be purchased CB for reasonable money IMO. 

S


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

sports_doc said:


> Now there are a number of great 'beginner' pumilio like Bastis, Cayo/Yellow belly, Man creeks that can all be purchased CB for reasonable money IMO.
> 
> S


Definitely, and the Man Creeks and Almirantes look a lot like Blue Jeans


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

sports_doc said:


> U wont often see 'black jeans' for sale. True Siquirres blk jeans pumilio are rare, which is what Daryl is trying to say
> 
> 
> S


Sorry, i was talking about the situation in Europe. There are actually alot of CB black jeans being offered in Germany.


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## flapjax3000 (Jul 4, 2009)

Black jeans are still rare in Europe. It is most likely a man creek that is being sold there. 

There are people who have consistently bred blue jeans since that import so there are occasionally CB animals available. Also some over time were most likely smuggled and mixed into the population here. They used to cost 35 dollars a frog, but since at one point they were too common, hard to breed and export shut off they have become quite rare in the states. 

If your wife loves the BJ's she might also like Almirante, Solarte, Red frog beach Bastis or Man Creeks. All of those I have seen in the 70 to 125 dollar price range.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I have seen and know of true blue jeans and black jeans for sale. I think the black jeans cost more though so Im not sure they would be handed over as blue jeans.

Michael


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

here is a pic of a true black jean for comparison


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## hukilausurfer (Aug 31, 2009)

Is that yours? Awesome frog!!!



Julio said:


> here is a pic of a true black jean for comparison


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Yes it is.....


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## nathan (Jul 24, 2009)

You stated you allready killed a couple frogs and dont want to kill $400 dollar frogs. I wouldnt want to kill $125 frogs either ( or any frogs). I wouldnt consider any pumilio to be great starter frogs. You may want to consider something else for a starter frog. Like leucs or azureus for example. Get your feet wet and if everything goes ok get yourself some pumilio down the road.

Just my opinion


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

It's a bit of a non-issue really, in my opinion Man Creeks look just as good as the blue jeans. Same colourscheme, just a bit smaller especially compared to the 'big blue jeans'-morph which comes close to Bribri in size.


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

There are a lot of CR Blue Jeans coming to the states here soon though I promise!!!


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

rcteem said:


> There are a lot of CR Blue Jeans coming to the states here soon though I promise!!!




That bold statement being said , is this supposedly due to sudden awesome captive breeding or smuggling? Only really two options, right?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

rcteem said:


> There are a lot of CR Blue Jeans coming to the states here soon though I promise!!!


Who?

and

How?


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## Lance (Sep 8, 2008)

And another debate begins...


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## puckplaya32 (Jan 6, 2008)

I hope he's referring to the frogs CRARC MAY import in the future (let me emphasize may import) and not the rumored shipment of smuggled "panamanian" blue jeans that's expected to arrive in the coming months.


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

daryl34 said:


> That bold statement being said , is this supposedly due to sudden awesome captive breeding or smuggling? Only really two options, right?


I'd say smuggling, as they are hard to breed and now they are showing up as sexed adults. Someone must have been to Costa-Rica recently... 

But there is also alot of other morphs being sold as blue jeans. I can see why, looking at the prices being asked! Don't underestimat the number of Cristobals, Almirante of black jeans being sold as blue jeans. 

The 'real' blue jeans are big, brightly coloured frogs. Without spots on the back, the legs should be really bright blue and not just under light 

Frankly, the picture shown above is a prima example of a cristobal or blackjeans as the legs are too dark and the back spotted.


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## gbeauvin (Aug 3, 2010)

ErikHa said:


> Frankly, the picture shown above is a prima example of a cristobal or *blackjeans* as the legs are too dark and the back spotted.


 (bolding mine)

I'm pretty sure the frog in that picture was advertised as a blackjeans.

-GB (who has no frog in this fight, so to speak)


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

ErikHa said:


> But there is also alot of other morphs being sold as blue jeans. I can see why, looking at the prices being asked! Don't underestimat the number of Cristobals, Almirante of black jeans being sold as blue jeans.
> 
> The 'real' blue jeans are big, brightly coloured frogs. Without spots on the back, the legs should be really bright blue and not just under light


You're saying blackjeans are trying to be passed off as bluejeans? I doubt it.
'Rea'l bluejeans can not only have spots but also dark legs. Blackjeans are much larger than bluejeans as a whole.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

daryl34 said:


> You're saying blackjeans are trying to be passed off as bluejeans? I doubt it.
> 'Rea'l bluejeans can not only have spots but also dark legs.


Absolutely correct


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Black Jeans are rarer and cost more as well. It makes no sence that they would be used as fake Blue Jeans for sale.

Michael


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

poison beauties said:


> Black Jeans are rarer and cost more as well. It makes no sence that they would be used as fake Blue Jeans for sale.
> 
> Michael


exactly! 

james


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## MD_Frogger (Sep 9, 2008)

With that last importation of Blue Jeans i don't see how you could call them rare at this moment in time. I am almost positive that anyone that wanted them that had the funds to purchase them now has them and there are still numerous extras floating around. 

And in my experience they are easier to breed than bastis.


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

daryl34 said:


> You're saying blackjeans are trying to be passed off as bluejeans? I doubt it.
> 'Rea'l bluejeans can not only have spots but also dark legs. Blackjeans are much larger than bluejeans as a whole.


Similar looking, cheaper morphs have been sold in Europe as blue jeans before, so why shouldn't it be happening here? Sticking a different name to a frog means alot more money to sellers. 

Check the pumilio morphguide here:
Oophaga pumilio Morphguide

As you can see, the 'real' blue jeans doesn't have spots on the back and their legs can not be confused with any other colour than blue. So no black, grey or 'dark blue'. No holding a flashlight to them to get a blue colour. 

Make up your own mind, but if you're paying these BIG summs for a frog called blue jeans, i'd make 100 percent sure it really is one.

@MD Frogger
Where are these imports from?


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## yours (Nov 11, 2007)

The ones in those pictures do have tiny black spots on their back  it's variable.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

ErikHa said:


> Check the pumilio morphguide here:
> Oophaga pumilio Morphguide
> 
> As you can see, the 'real' blue jeans doesn't have spots on the back and their legs can not be confused with any other colour than blue. So no black, grey or 'dark blue'. No holding a flashlight to them to get a blue colour.


So you're 100% sure those pics weren't taken with a flash? As has been stated many times before, pictures are not a reliable way to identify pumilio - and just ask anyone who has been there, plenty of them are spotted, not spotted, darker, lighter............


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

I was all over the East Coast of Costa Rica last Nov-Dec and got a chance to see a lot of Pumilio. They are indeed somewhat variable with regards to spots and dashmarks , whatever you want to call it. The one fairly constant is the dark blue legs....not black....not grey or greyish like the Panamanian Alimirante group.

Winter 2009 - Spring 2010, @ 100 Blue jeans arrived in the East coast and many advanced hobbyists have them. Add to that, the small amount already existing, and I am going to say that the CB breeding successes from those should be enough to sustain demand in the U.S for that particular morph.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

nathan said:


> You stated you allready killed a couple frogs and dont want to kill $400 dollar frogs. I wouldnt want to kill $125 frogs either ( or any frogs). I wouldnt consider any pumilio to be great starter frogs. You may want to consider something else for a starter frog. Like leucs or azureus for example. Get your feet wet and if everything goes ok get yourself some pumilio down the road.
> 
> Just my opinion


Not to get too far off topic but in my opinion, thumbs and pums are far easier to keep than any tinc. Mostly bc they are far easier to fill. I found out the hard way when I first got into this hobby how fast a tinc can starve or how hard it can be to produce enough FFs for them. The little guys fill up easy and can even be sustained on Springs should the need arise.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Forgive the naive question, but how do true blue jeans compare in size to something like a Imitator Intermedius (my only thumbnail and frame of reference)?


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

JimO said:


> Forgive the naive question, but how do true blue jeans compare in size to something like a Imitator Intermedius (my only thumbnail and frame of reference)?


They're probably around 1.5x larger or more


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

Here's one of my bj pairs courting tonight, from the same source side by side looking nothing alike:


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

Philsuma said:


> Winter 2009 - Spring 2010, @ 100 Blue jeans arrived in the East coast and many advanced hobbyists have them. Add to that, the small amount already existing, and I am going to say that the CB breeding successes from those should be enough to sustain demand in the U.S for that particular morph.


So are you suggesting they were legally exported to the US? I'd find that really surprising, since Costa-Rica doesn't allow export of its fauna...

Anyway, i've seen plenty of blue jeans and imho they are no frog to pay these extortionate amounts for. Even if they are real blue jeans, which again i highly doubt in some cases. Chris, the frog on the left...Are you sure that's a blue jeans? The legs are too dark. Was the breeder perhaps also keeping almirante?


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

ErikHa said:


> So are you suggesting they were legally exported to the US? I'd find that really surprising, since Costa-Rica doesn't allow export of its fauna...


You know me .....not suggesting a darn thing....



ErikHa said:


> Anyway, i've seen plenty of blue jeans and imho they are no frog to pay these extortionate amounts for. Even if they are real blue jeans, which again i highly doubt in some cases. Chris, the frog on the left...Are you sure that's a blue jeans? The legs are too dark. Was the breeder perhaps also keeping almirante?


I don't like the fact that they were being sold to beginning hobbyists for large sums either. I'm against any importer trying to juice-up and promote the next big morph hit. I realize that without imported frogs, the breeders wouldn't have froglets...ect.ect.


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

ErikHa said:


> Chris, the frog on the left...Are you sure that's a blue jeans? The legs are too dark. Was the breeder perhaps also keeping almirante?


Absolutely sure, I didn't pay a huge amount, I know who I got them from, and they're much bigger than almirantes.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Ok Chris, I would like to see some paperwork and the name of the person you got these from.

Sorry buddy, I just couldn`t help myself.

John


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## ChrisK (Oct 28, 2008)

OK fr..... errrrrrrrr John


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## ErikHa (Jun 10, 2010)

I must say it's quite extraordinary that breeders have managed to generate almost adult sexable blue jeans and are now offering them all at once...

Am i the only one curious about this? In Europe i've rarely seen real CB blue jeans, a pumilio morph that is very difficult to breed. Most offered under that name were other morphs or simply smuggled frogs that were far too big to be passed off as 'captive bred'.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ErikHa said:


> I must say it's quite extraordinary that breeders have managed to generate almost adult sexable blue jeans and are now offering them all at once...
> 
> Am i the only one curious about this? In Europe i've rarely seen real CB blue jeans, a pumilio morph that is very difficult to breed. Most offered under that name were other morphs or simply smuggled frogs that were far too big to be passed off as 'captive bred'.


Erik,

How do you reconcile the above statement with the fact that pumilio are reported in the literature to reach sexual maturity at about 19 mm (which can take ten months or less in captivity)? See paragraph below for some additional comments...

One of the things, that initially slowed down distribution of a number of pumilio variations was the high mortality of froglets under 6 months of age (which is anecdotally well documented..). This for a long time resulted in few trades and/or sales of froglets under the age of six months. So for a long time, trades and sales were of animals that were of six months of age or more. Some relatively recent advances have allowed for greater survial of froglets past 3 months allowing for a greater number of animals in the 3 month and older bracket to be sold and traded. 

Now this does not mean that there have not been in my opinion suspicious imports but due to the problems with froglets and rapid age of maturation, sexed adults cannot be used as the sole criteria in determining whether or not a frog is legal or illegal. 

I personally know people that have been consistently producing BJ froglets from the original imports (see above for why they are not more common).

As for patterning, according to the field guides of Costa Rica, there are variations within the patterning of blue jeans... 

Ed


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## EricM (Feb 15, 2004)

This is a pair of the costa rican blue jeans from the original import back in 90s. Not many of them survived due to the way they were shipped, lots of frogs in a box, climbing all over each other, smearing their own toxic glue on one another. It's real sticky and it smells real funky. 

In the last few years there has been a major improvement in collecting, housing, feeding, and packaging of dart frogs in the reptile trade. Hence we have a much improved survivability in shipments not only of pumilio but others such as tincts.

There are a good number of froggers who have surviving memebers of blue jeans in the hobby, and in the last 5 years we have been swapping animals to further vary the gene pool of what we have left here. This has been spearheaded by folks in TWI. One of the reasons they don't show up for sale or trade often, we are still placing them in stewardship that gives the frog the best chance to be bred and bred for many years to come. 

thanks
Eric


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