# Mourning geckos with frogs



## Caitlin

What are people's opinions on putting a mourning gecko (Lepidodactylus lugubris) in with some dart frogs? I've read that mourning geckos are one of the few types of non-dart frog creatures that are okay to put in with darts.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'd really like to pick up a gecko at Northwest Captive Breeders Expo this weekend. I'd of course quarantine it for a couple months before putting it in with my leucs.

What do you guys think? Anyone have personal experience with putting mourning geckos and darts together?


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## stchupa

Can't say but the potential is there for them to carry pathogen/parasites.
I deffinately wouldn't mix with smaller frogs. I wouldn't worry about a terribilis having trouble with it.


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## Caitlin

I think leucs are big enough, though...and mourning geckos are pretty small. My thought is that the leucs would inhabit mainly the lower portions of the tank (it's a 30-gal cube) and the gecko would inhabit primarily the upper part...maybe?

And I'd definitely quarantine the geck because of the possibility of pathogens/parasites. Maybe have a fecal done, too.

So has anyone else mixed mourning geckos with darts?


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## stchupa

Caitlin said:


> I think leucs are big enough, though...and mourning geckos are pretty small. My thought is that the leucs would inhabit mainly the lower portions of the tank (it's a 30-gal cube) and the gecko would inhabit primarily the upper part...maybe?


They will no doubt have there 'interactions' at some point.



> And I'd definitely quarantine the geck because of the possibility of pathogens/parasites. Maybe have a fecal done, too.


Quarantine won't rid of these things. Only a precautionary method to observe stress impact, which reveils potential disease/parasites. Unless medications are used.



> So has anyone else mixed mourning geckos with darts?


I've heard, never seen.


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## CanadianAmphibian

That' s interesting. How big does this geckos grow? Maybe I' ll do the same thing. Hehe.  

Fred


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## Ed

snip " I think leucs are big enough, though...and mourning geckos are pretty small. My thought is that the leucs would inhabit mainly the lower portions of the tank (it's a 30-gal cube) and the gecko would inhabit primarily the upper part...maybe? endquote

They will no doubt have there 'interactions' at some point."endsnip

The thing to remember here is that the frogs are too large for the geckos to consider as a prey species and vice versa. In the same vein, the frogs and the geckos do not consider the other to be potential predators. 

As neither species is going to be climbing all over the other species all of the time, then the interactions will be limited and thus negligible. 

If you look through the thread on multispecies enclosures, you will see that Chuck Powell has kept Anoles in with darts for many years (and bred both species) without an issue (and the geckos are a little smaller (if my memory serves me correctly) than large male anoles). 

Ed


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## back2eight

where would one buy a mourning gecko? Is this a common gecko typically found in pet stores?


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## Ben_C

L. lugubris and D. auratus live in the same areas on O'ahu. L. lugubris is nocturnal though and it's little clicks can get loud in the middle of the night.
Just thought I'd warn you... 
They're also parthenogenic and can/will produce LOTS of offspring in short amounts of time...

~B


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## joshsfrogs

I looked for months for this gecko a year or two ago. Then some guy on Kingsnake was offering them for like $10 a piece. I bought 10 and 4 arrived dead (it was winter). Three more died in a couple of days. I had one in quarantine for months. Finally added it to a display tank with some auratus (it was a 30 gallon tank). I never saw the lizard. Then one day my wife was getting the cat water and she screamed "there's a lizard in our house!". Then a couple of weeks later she saw the lizard on the stove. I haven't seen the lizard in probably a year now. I heard these things are pretty prolific, but I keep telling myself if that if it was breeding like crazy, I would at least see one of them...they are nocturnal though...maybe I'll rent some night vision goggles and camp out in my living room...


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## CanadianAmphibian

Guys, what other small geckos or lizards you can put with PDFs? What' s the size of Mourning Gecko? 

Fred


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## GSXR_MURRHEE

I've heard and read about of day geckos being put with darts. Never actually seen it though.


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## Ed

Some of the Gonatodes, Spaerodactylus and possible small Norops are acceptable in the enclosure. I do not suggest using non-sympatric species due to the risk of disease pathogens. 

Ed


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## cubby23

Mourning geckos are really cool, i would love to get one. They are asexual and are all females and lay fertile eggs by themselves, each is a cloneof its mother. Cool stuff, the babies are CRAZY small.


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## back2eight

I have looked into them thanks to this thread and I have found a breeder that sells them. I want some but will probably have to wait until spring to get some.

One problem, though, is that this breeder says she has been breeding them for 18 years and she NEVER gives them vitamin A. It is not good for them. So I don't see how someone could successfulyl keep them in a dart viv because our vitamins have vitamin A. They do need calcium and other vitamins, just not vitamin A. So there is one thing to think about.

Another thing is she said the enclosers can be small, she keeps up to 6 in a 10 gallon viv. So that is good for someone with not a lot of space for a big viv.


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## Ed

I find that statement suspicious as this would make thier metabolism different than any other known vertebrate. 

Ed


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## ralph

About the vitamin A; I've read that its not good for them in excess. But I dunno about none at all. :?

_"Balance the amount of vitamin A judiciously, because vitamin A toxicity can be a problem."_ -- from care sheet

Do you think they will like the high humidity of a PDF viv?


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## Ed

Most supplements at this time do not add vitamin A as retinol. The supplements these days (and for the last 10 years or so) use beta carotene which as needed is converted to retinol. This prevents the level of retinol from reaching levels sufficient to cause issues. 

There is a conversion ratio depending on the isomer of beta carotene which provides an indication of activity as vitamin A (as retinol). 

In any case vitamin A in excess is bad for everything. If it is part of a supplement then it initially interferes with absorbtion of D3 and E. In even larger amounts it can be liver toxic causing death. 

In general, if there is ventilation of the enclosure then it should be okay for the geckos. 

Ed


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## CanadianAmphibian

Ed said:


> Some of the Gonatodes, Spaerodactylus and possible small Norops are acceptable in the enclosure. I do not suggest using non-sympatric species due to the risk of disease pathogens.
> 
> Ed


Gonatodes looks cool eh? :wink: But where would you find them? :?


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## Dendrobait

Patrick Nabors breeds Gonatodes albogularis I believe. Cool stuff. Probably not affordable for me but it is tempting to try a setup with mourning geckos and darts.


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## *GREASER*

i have kept these geckos before. They are very easy to maintain esp if you already keep frogs. There really isnt much of a difference in keeping them. And they love the ffs. And they breed fairly easy and the offspring are adorable. 

here are some pics of eggs they produced for me


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## Dendrobait

Wow. Thats from 3 females right?

Its odd that they seem a little tough to find though. Not many bother with them.


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## Caitlin

Well, I picked up a mourning gecko at NWCBE on Saturday. I got her from Elizabeth Freer for $10, and she's really cute! Someone mentioned in a previous post that mourning geckos are not only noisy but also parthenogenic---I'm aware of both but thanks anyway  However, I haven't heard any calling yet. I think she'll have to get settled before any noisiness will occur. 
I'm keeping her in a Kritter Keeper with sphagnum moss and a couple plants until I can move her into something a little larger (probably this weekend), and I'm feeding her fruit flies and baby food :lol: 
I'll quarantine her for a couple months until I put her in with my froggies, and I'll remove any eggs unless I decide I want more geckos.

Here's picture of her in her little house:


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## TimsViv

I have kept house geckos and anoles together with Leucs and Tincs without any issues. The only thing was, I rarely saw the geckos because they were nocturnal - I eventually took them out. Also, I eventually removed the Anoles, but only because I got tired of crickets.

Tim


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## Caitlin

Well, we'll see how visible the mourning gecko turns out to be. She's so adorable, I really hope I can see her! But I've read that in captivity, they're pretty active durnig the day. Anyway, I'm excited because I've wanted a mourning gecko for YEARS, ever since I went to the Cook Islands when I was 12 and saw them all over the place, and now I finally have one!


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## back2eight

How funny, I have been talking with Elizabeth Freer about buying some as well!!


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## bwood1979

They are really cool but I would not put them in pumilio tanks where the parents are raising the offspring. Also, mine don't make any calling noises that I have heard. From one comes many (trust me). :shock:


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## *GREASER*

yeah they do make a bit of noise esp at night. But I enjoyed it. They seem to be a little social.


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## Rain_Frog

what about crickets preying on sleeping frogs?


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## wuness

Some of the comments I've seen here (and in the other forum) regarding geckos and parthenogenesis suggest there may be some confusion about the process and outcome. You may have learned in high school that eggs (and sperm) normally result from meiosis occurring in the gonads and, as such, are each genetically unique. Consequently, when these eggs develop, even without fertilization, the offspring will be genetically dissimilar. Therefore, to say that the offspring are clones of the mother is technically incorrect. Clones are genetically identical offspring.

As a sidelight, parthenogenesis apparently may occur in several ways in higher forms. One possibility is that two eggs may fuse in the fertilization process. And, in at least one species of lizard in the southwest. mating between females and males of a different species occurs but the sperm apparently serves only to initiate the development of the egg and does not contribute any DNA to the offspring. In both cases, only females result.

wuness


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## CanadianAmphibian

TimsViv said:


> I have kept house geckos and anoles together with Leucs and Tincs without any issues. The only thing was, I rarely saw the geckos because they were nocturnal - I eventually took them out. Also, I eventually removed the Anoles, but only because I got tired of crickets.
> 
> Tim


I' m considering Anoles with my Darts. Would Anoles bite my frogs?


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## CanadianAmphibian

I e-mailed Patrick Nabors and he said that only Phelsuma (Day Geckos) can mix Dart Frogs. But only if you have a 100 gallon tank. Day Geckos looks nice and bright.


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## back2eight

Okay, so how about these people who are saying that they have kept mourning geckos for years with darts?


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## Ed

"endsnip" I' m considering Anoles with my Darts. Would Anoles bite my frogs"endsnip

Charles Powell who has been around for a long time (Look up American Dendrobatid Society) has kept anoles in with dart frogs with no problems (to the point both were successfully reproducing in the enclosure). 
Can they bite the dart frogs, the answer is yes. I wouldn't keep them with thumbnails or egg feeders because frogs that small may be a temptation to try or the metamorphs maybe small enough but frogs like tinctorius, auratus, leucomelas, etc are too large. Can a freak accident occur, sure (but then these occur anyway). would there likely be any significant damage, no. 

I can think back to talking to people keeping mourning geckos with dart frogs going back into the early 1990s..... (people have also done this with the smaller phelsuma for about the same length of time). 

Ed


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## jejton

Ed said:


> Most supplements at this time do not add vitamin A as retinol. The supplements these days (and for the last 10 years or so) use beta carotene which as needed is converted to retinol. This prevents the level of retinol from reaching levels sufficient to cause issues.
> 
> There is a conversion ratio depending on the isomer of beta carotene which provides an indication of activity as vitamin A (as retinol).
> 
> In any case vitamin A in excess is bad for everything. If it is part of a supplement then it initially interferes with absorbtion of D3 and E. In even larger amounts it can be liver toxic causing death.
> 
> Ed


Vitamin A is a fat soluble vitamin, so the body has a hard time getting rid of excess. 

It is also a teratogen, in humans at least. That is why women have to take monthly pregnancy tests if they want to take Accutane ( an acne medicine which is a high dose of vitamin A derivative). If they should happen to take it while they are pregnant it causes horrible birth defects.


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## Ed

Retinol has to be taken in excess of 10,000 IU a day before there are risks as a teratogen. 

This is not the case with some of the retinol analogs such as isotretinoin (Accutane). These show an increased risk. 

(see Rothman KJ, Moore LL, Singer MR, Nguyen U-SDT, Mannino S, Milunsky A (1995): Teratogenicity of high vitamin A intake.N Engl J Med 333:1369-1373. 

Oakley GP Jr, Erickson, JD (1995): Vitamin A and Birth Defects (Editorial). Ibid 333:1414-1415)

Ed


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## *GREASER*

Rain_Frog said:


> what about crickets preying on sleeping frogs?


They feed on FFs that one of teh reasons they mix so well with darts.


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## bwood1979

When I was breeding Phelsuma, I raised all of the juveniles in my frog tanks. I would however not recomed keeping adults like this for long periods of time. Maybe klemmeri or other small phelsuma would be fime but you really need a large enclosure IMO. Also, remember that Phelsuma need basking lights and a fruit mixture. Having your frogs jumping in this mixture would not be a great idea. I have often thought about keeping Anolis with my frogs but I'm sure that you would have to chose the right species.


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