# Ideology behind NOT mixing morphs?



## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

So,
I've been lurking on the forums for a few months now, soaking up tons of info, but I have a question that's been stuck in my mind. I figured I might as well go ahead and post and "break" my cherry. Please be gentle, it's my first time.... 

What is the true ideology behind not mixing morphs of the same species? I understand that hybrids are looked down on, as dendrohobbyists seem fixated on maintaining naturally occurring morphs. Thus, the reason why most morph names are based on locality. 

At face value, that answer is enough, but why the difference between dart frogs, and almost every reptile species bred in captivity. Crested geckos, Ball pythons, Leopard Geckos; the list goes on. Is it because the phenotypes of frogs are already so varied, that the urge to explore new patterns and colors is already satiated?

Basically, why are dart frog enthusiasts so radically different in ideology from the rest of the herping world? I have my own thoughts on the matter, but want to see what the community believes about it (or feels about itself, if you will)


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## ConFuCiuZ (Jul 13, 2011)

Heres a good thread. If you havent read it. .Normally frogs dont mix in the wild. So why should we? Let mother nature take care of that. Hybrids dont live as long. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10507-mixing-101-a.html


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Trickishleaf said:


> Basically, why are dart frog enthusiasts so radically different in ideology from the rest of the herping world? I have my own thoughts on the matter, but want to see what the community believes about it (or feels about itself, if you will)


I would venture that among many other reasons we are more interested in the biology and ecology of the species under consideration than a large number of reptile keepers, esp. those that work with the species that you mentioned. There is also the financial component associated with creating the hot new morph, etc., that seems pervasive within the larger herp community. That isn't to say that there are plenty of respectable folks that are interested but that when it comes to the mainstream many are more interested in reptiles because they are "cool" and can "make money" as opposed to finding them interesting from a biological or ecological perspective.

I also have a few biotopic tanks so not all amphib keepers adopt the simplistic "no mixing" dogma. 

Just my two cents.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Trickishleaf said:


> the urge to explore new patterns and colors


I can honestly say, I have NEVER had this "urge" and will NEVER support anyone who does!




ConFuCiuZ said:


> frogs dont mix in the wild. So why should we?


Exactly!


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## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

ConFuCiuZ said:


> Heres a good thread. If you havent read it. .Normally frogs dont mix in the wild. So why should we? Let mother nature take care of that. Hybrids dont live as long.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/10507-mixing-101-a.html


To clarify, I am not advocating mixing morphs. Just seeking to understand the mindset on the topic. 
My thoughts are that the initial keepers of dart frogs were motivated by conservation and ecology, rather than having an exotic pet. That conservationist mindset pervades the hobby as a result. People don't just all decide, oh well I 'm not going to mix morphs, so no one in the hobby should. It has to start from some initial ideas on the subject, and is then passed on to others as they join the hobby. Can you honestly say when you first became fascinated with dart frogs that you were deadset against mixing a highland bronze with a super blue?


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

Trickishleaf said:


> What is the true ideology behind not mixing morphs of the same species? I understand that hybrids are looked down on, as dendrohobbyists seem fixated on maintaining naturally occurring morphs.





Trickishleaf said:


> Is it because the phenotypes of frogs are already so varied, that the urge to explore new patterns and colors is already satiated?


You've answered your own question right there. It shows that you've been doing a little reading. 

Best


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

I can't speak for the other hobbies, but I know that a lot of froggers prefer the health and well-being of their frogs more than risking a frogs safety by mixing for whatever reason.


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## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

At its most basic form the question I suppose is, are people who think "I will not play God" attracted to the hobby, or is that idea learned from being a member of the hobby, or is it a combination of the two? 

I'm mostly interested in individual reasons for maintaining this attitude, I.e why YOU personally hold that belief, when do you remember first thinking those thoughts after joining the hobby? Or were you interested in the hobby because of a predisposition toward that belief on your part.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'm more interested why you can't just let it be. Lousy topic for your first posts.

I'm more interested why you might want to mix them, not why we do not want to.

I'm more interested ...

s



Trickishleaf said:


> ... I'm mostly interested in individual reasons for maintaining this attitude, I.e why YOU personally hold that belief, when do you remember first thinking those thoughts after joining the hobby? Or were you interested in the hobby because of a predisposition toward that belief on your part.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Trickishleaf said:


> So,
> What is the true ideology behind not mixing morphs of the same species? I understand that hybrids are looked down on, as dendrohobbyists seem fixated on maintaining naturally occurring morphs. Thus, the reason why most morph names are based on locality.
> 
> At face value, that answer is enough, but why the difference between dart frogs, and almost every reptile species bred in captivity. Crested geckos, Ball pythons, Leopard Geckos; the list goes on. Is it because the phenotypes of frogs are already so varied, that the urge to explore new patterns and colors is already satiated?
> ...


Well I guess it was time for someone to try and stir the mud. If you've been reading on here for awhile I'm surprised that you weren't able to answer your question.... 

You do realize that attempting to compare "morphs" in the dendrobatid hobby to the vast majority of the herp hobby "morphs" is an apples and oranges comparision? This is because the vast majority of the "morphs" in the broader hobby are the result of artificial selection while the "morphs" in the dendrobatid hobby are typically from a naturally occuring population that has fixed that pattern. There are very few of the fixed artificial morphs in the dendrobatid hobby. 

As for further reading, I suggest searching the forum for outbreeding depression.. as that is a direct discussion on crossing different populations and the risk to the hobby as a whole..... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

... and some of us are tired of having the same discussion over and over and over and over ...

Enough already.

s


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## XxExoticPsychExX (Mar 12, 2012)

I was attracted to the hobby because of how cool and cute dart frogs look! Lol. People, don't kill me! I AM attracted to the cuteness of an animal, but know that it takes a lot of research and work to properly take care of them. Personally, I haven't been attracted to any other amphibians other than a few select dart frogs. I already love how they naturally look in the wild and it was all those years of watching Discovery Channel and National Geographic that got me to fall in love with them.

I am not into mixing for a number of reasons:
1. I'm too lazy to even get into that myself.
2. There is already a vast selection from which I could choose from.
3. I look at the hybrids of dogs and cats (not together obviously) created by humans and many breeds now have their own set of ailments (i.e. golden retrievers are prone to hip dysplasia, pugs and other "smooshed face" dogs and cats can have breathing problems, etc.). I don't know about you, but I'd rather not complicate things.
4. Getting into hybrids, I'm definitely not ready to memorize that AxB=AB and looks like (insert description here) and should cost X amount of money so that I don't get ripped off by someone.
5. KISS. Keep It Simple, Stupid (not calling you stupid or anyone else. It's just part of the acronym ).


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

God help me, I'm in a mixing thread.



Trickishleaf said:


> My thoughts are that the initial keepers of dart frogs were motivated by conservation and ecology, rather than having an exotic pet. That conservationist mindset pervades the hobby as a result.


I actually think there is some truth to this...at least it explains the visceral reaction that we are all expecting. With respect to Ed's "apples and oranges" analogy (which is true) I think the kid with the clown-bumblegum-super-sunglow-het-for-magenta ball python is concerned with 2 things...having the coolest looking animal on the block, and the money that any new babies could make. He doesn't really care about the status of ball pythons in the wild. Most froggers that are in the hobby for long wouldn't list either of those two aspects as being in the top 5.

Most of us know it's not "conservation" in any real sense, but still place an importance on conserving the status/bloodlines of the animals we produce, and have nightmares that we may find out that some animal we bought/bred in good faith turned out to be half corn-snake.


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## Enlightened Rogue (Mar 21, 2006)

Dammit, I burned my popcorn.

John


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## guylovesreef (May 3, 2012)

burnt popcorn smells not good!


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## kitcolebay (Apr 7, 2012)

Scott said:


> ... and some of us are tired of having the same discussion over and over and over and over ...
> 
> Enough already.
> 
> s




I understand that some people who have been a part of these forums for years do get tired of seeing some of the same subjects brought up and discussed over and over again. I've only been reading these forums for less than 6 months and I've witnessed it myself...over and over. Please keep in mind though that these forums have a tremendous amount of information to share that takes a considerable amount of time to absorb. Longer for some. I occasionally get disappointed or frustrated at the lack of respect given by some on here towards newer members or certain questions. Some people are made to feel very unwanted when asking a question on here and scared off.
A few basic thoughts I wish would be kept in mind when posting...
Please treat others how you wish to be treated.
Treat others with respect.
Please understand what it was like when you were new to the hobby.
If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything at all.

Thankfully, I have been treated very well on here and have met some truly great people. I've really come to enjoy the hobby and the special group of people that are a part of it. Everyday I browse these forums, learn a little more, and sometimes get to know a few members a little better. I am proud of the kind, helpful, and knowledgeable members. I am sometimes ashamed of the behavior and negativity of a few others. I'd like to hold you to a higher standard.

Sorry for the rant. 
I thank you for the better part of the community.

Thanks, Chris.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

I don't know if it's just me, but I think trickishleaf is asking a slightly different question, then the norm. This is the very first time I am posting (or even considered posting)in one of these types of threads, and I can definitely understand the fatigue from the regulars. I could be wrong, but I don't think this question is coming from a commercial, conservation, scientific, or moral perspective. The OP can correct me if I'm wrong and I'll remove myself from the mudpit!

If I were to guess why the dartfrog hobby is so different, I would say it is due to parts of it's origins. Many of the early hobbyists came from specialty aquarium groups, such as the killifish hobby. If you know anything about the killifish hobby, they are even more specific as to where a particular fish is from. This was due to the difficulty in acquiring killifish back in the earlier days. First, there were very few commercial collections of these fish and if you screwed up and lost the purity of the stock, it could be a long, long time before someone went back in and collected more. Secondly, the taxonomy of many of these fish were in question at the time, so it was a puzzle as to where one species ended and the next began. The end result was that a killifish from the puddle on the right shouldn't be bred with what looked to be the same species from the puddle on the left. Now, that's definitely an exaggeration, but generally how it worked.

In the early days of this dartfrog hobby (and even now to some degree), the same issues existed. Getting breeding stock of dart frogs was not an easy task, and if you lost (or ruined the purity of) the stock, it would be a long, long time before you got the chance to replace it. Also, I think to a small degree we in the hobby have always wrestled with where the lines are drawn, not necessarily between species, but more where one population ends and another begins. So, historically there has always been a very conservative approach to the problem and the hobby was very reluctant to mix much of anything. Now that the hobby has grown, matured, and educated itself, it turns out that these attitudes were helpful and have served us well. Especially now that some of the issues facing us are even more complicated.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

I think your post should be the final say...


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Chuck - very well said.

Thank you for taking the time to type up an excellent reply.

s


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Scott said:


> ... and some of us are tired of having the same discussion over and over and over and over ...
> 
> Enough already.
> 
> s


Didn't realize this forum revolved around the desires if the few. Don't like the topic move on. People have a right to discuss this as many times as they like.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

Scott said:


> Chuck - very well said.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to type up an excellent reply.
> 
> s


Thanks Scott. Time-wise, I'm sure it pales in comparison to moderating!
I can barely read 1 long thread without tuning out! lol I don't know how you all do it.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It would be preferable if the OP had better read the contents here (DB), and they did say that they had read a bit, but it would be better to really well inform yourself and know that it's not a good subject.

Especially in regards to what time of first impression it possibly leaves.

Now if you're not worried about what type of impression it might leave (seems to be your method ... ), you just plunge ahead anyhow.

s


mantisdragon91 said:


> Didn't realize this forum revolved around the desires if the few. Don't like the topic move on. People have a right to discuss this as many times as they like.


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## Trickishleaf (Jun 29, 2012)

Manuran said:


> I don't know if it's just me, but I think trickishleaf is asking a slightly different question, then the norm. This is the very first time I am posting (or even considered posting)in one of these types of threads, and I can definitely understand the fatigue from the regulars. I could be wrong, but I don't think this question is coming from a commercial, conservation, scientific, or moral perspective. The OP can correct me if I'm wrong and I'll remove myself from the mudpit!
> 
> If I were to guess why the dartfrog hobby is so different, I would say it is due to parts of it's origins. Many of the early hobbyists came from specialty aquarium groups, such as the killifish hobby. If you know anything about the killifish hobby, they are even more specific as to where a particular fish is from. This was due to the difficulty in acquiring killifish back in the earlier days. First, there were very few commercial collections of these fish and if you screwed up and lost the purity of the stock, it could be a long, long time before someone went back in and collected more. Secondly, the taxonomy of many of these fish were in question at the time, so it was a puzzle as to where one species ended and the next began. The end result was that a killifish from the puddle on the right shouldn't be bred with what looked to be the same species from the puddle on the left. Now, that's definitely an exaggeration, but generally how it worked.
> 
> In the early days of this dartfrog hobby (and even now to some degree), the same issues existed. Getting breeding stock of dart frogs was not an easy task, and if you lost (or ruined the purity of) the stock, it would be a long, long time before you got the chance to replace it. Also, I think to a small degree we in the hobby have always wrestled with where the lines are drawn, not necessarily between species, but more where one population ends and another begins. So, historically there has always been a very conservative approach to the problem and the hobby was very reluctant to mix much of anything. Now that the hobby has grown, matured, and educated itself, it turns out that these attitudes were helpful and have served us well. Especially now that some of the issues facing us are even more complicated.


That answers my question almost exactly. Thank you for taking the time to write that out. I appreciate it a great deal. I may have miscommunicated what I meant, but you understood what I intended. 
It seems like there a billion threads on whether it's ok to mix or not, but none seemed to answer the deeper fundamental why's, and for me, those are the most important ones. If I'm going to be part of a community, I want to understand what drives it, especially on some of the most deeply rooted ideas. So, I appreciate all the feedback, and sorry for beating what may be a very dead horse to others. That was not my intention, I assure you.


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## lynnstorm (Nov 23, 2009)

These frogs created by nature are so beautiful to begin with why would we want to mess with that? 

Lynn


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Scott said:


> *It would be preferable if the OP had better read the contents here (DB), and they did say that they had read a bit, but it would be better to really well inform yourself and know that it's not a good subject.*Especially in regards to what time of first impression it possibly leaves.
> 
> Now if you're not worried about what type of impression it might leave (seems to be your method ... ), you just plunge ahead anyhow.
> 
> s


Didn't realize that a homework assignment needed to be completed to participate in this forum

In a open format there should be no taboo subjects, and if there are who determines what they are... you, me or some other person who is no more relevant than anyone else on here. People have the right to ask questions on any topic that is dart related. When we start discouraging people from asking questions and instead just tell them to go look it up in old threads, we stunt the growth of the hobby and discourage the participation of new comers. How many threads do you think would actually be on Dendroboard if only topics and questions that have not previously been addressed were allowed to be posted?


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

It is also because most species of Darts we could are or was endangered.
Buddy

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


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## drewman1962 (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm am new, gathering info and materials for my first build. I have always been interested in darts and in my search of info on the internet, came across this place. 

I was impressed right away with the care and love for the animal here. People here are really interested in doing what is the right and proper things to be considered a good steward of this fasinating hobbie. (I'm a really bad speller) 

I have learned so much and the more I learn the more I realize I need to learn. Plants, bugs, frogs, water, light, dirt, air, it is all inter-connected.

As you read and ask questions, don't be shy. Some of the old-timers  do seem a bit harse at times hearing the same things over and over, but they only are trying to do the best for the darts and this hobby (I really do not like that word, it is so much more than a hobby)

I think if people would put as much time into their dogs, cats, and other animals as the people here try to do and promot, we would not have all of the health issues and unwanted pets as we see.

Just read and search the forums here, and if something is not clear, feel free to ask, someone well help. You should see the info I got on lights when I started asking about LEDS. WOW!!!

Sorry about rambling, but I really find this place helpful and hope others do also. I can't wait until I get enough knowledge to maybe help someone else out here.


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## chuckpowell (May 12, 2004)

To take this thread a little off point. I'm of the opinion that this forum is here to help people. The question is valid and if you don't like it or have read it a million time, don't post, don't read it, pass it over and go to something that interests you. I've always considered the people I deal in the hobby more important than the animals. I think we should keep it that way here and in the rest of our lives. Sure there are bad people out there - don't deal with them. Ignore them - they'll get bored and go away. But lets try not to be rude- we're better than that. At least I am. 

Best,

Chuck


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## cschub13 (Apr 27, 2011)

I am not trying to get involved in this topic but simply making a statement that I feel will hopefully clear up some things...

The topic of mixing,hybrids,etc. is brought up several times a month usually by someone knew looking to find out answers on the concept. The fact is there are hundreds of threads discussing this topic and they all end with the same priciples that it is heavily frowned upon. A simple search and a bit of reading and literally you should completely understand that it should not be done. I am not bashing the OP for making this thread, as he is entitled to do so. I also have no issue with others helping him out and answering the questions, regardless of how overdone they are. I am just simply stating that this topic shouldn't even be coming up anymore and people should be doing the proper research!!

As for those that are getting irritated by the constant stream of mixing threads I stand with them. As previously stated it is difficult to get on here and see yet another person taking a swing at this issue that has such a readily available answer...NO.

As for those claiming that people like Scott shouldn't read or comment on this topics, it is my understanding that as a moderator of this forum it is part of his daily duty to read through threads and posts. I am sure someone with his responsibilities and experience gets a wee bit tired of this nightmare of a subject.


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## pgravis (Dec 29, 2010)

I find it interesting that many of us state we get into this hobby because of a scientific mindset and that is one I the reasons we don't mix (which I agree with) but we expect new people to just accept the answer "no" without explaining the process. Most scientist (loose use of the title, more like armchair scientist) scoff at the idea of an answer without the process being explained. We come here for knowledge an just like in a class some can read a book and get all the info they need but others must raise their hand and ask questions (that are answered in the book) but don't grasp the concept until it is specifically answered to them with their set of questions. 
It seems like many on here would like the forum to be more of a searchable database of knowledge than a living growing thing. It's an interesting concept for a forum. Not good or bad, just different than many other forums I'm on. Just my newbie two cents!
Cheers
Pj


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

cschub13 said:


> I am not trying to get involved in this topic but simply making a statement that I feel will hopefully clear up some things...
> 
> The topic of mixing,hybrids,etc. is brought up several times a month usually by someone knew looking to find out answers on the concept. The fact is there are hundreds of threads discussing this topic and they all end with the same priciples that it is heavily frowned upon. A simple search and a bit of reading and literally you should completely understand that it should not be done. I am not bashing the OP for making this thread, as he is entitled to do so. I also have no issue with others helping him out and answering the questions, regardless of how overdone they are. I am just simply stating that this topic shouldn't even be coming up anymore and people should be doing the proper research!!
> 
> ...


And I have a diffrent take on this issue. This forum was created to allow people of diffrent experience levels to share information and view points with each other. It's bad enough when a member posts things like this:

*I'm more interested why you can't just let it be. Lousy topic for your first posts.

I'm more interested why you might want to mix them, not why we do not want to.

I'm more interested ...*

and this:

*... and some of us are tired of having the same discussion over and over and over and over ...

Enough already.*


On a thread that is obviously not a "troll" thread but a thread started by someone trying to expand their understanding of the topic. It becomes that much more damaging when posted by a "Moderator" since it can have a chilling effect on people(especially new comers to the forum) wanting to ask questions in the future.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Sigh...lecturing people on the search function. I am not a fan of it for a few reasons.

1. Someone new to forums may not know how to use the search feature....or that it is easier to use google and type dendroboard after your google search
2. Someone may not be as familiar with internet sites and the tricks to find what you want. I highly doubt I would go to a library and get lectured because I didn't know how the dewey decimal system works prior to me going (if you never heard of it then I think my point should be made about crossing unfamiliar territory for the first time)
3. People may see a similar question that they have but it may be worded in a way that is unclear to them and maybe they feel more comfortable if they phrase it how they prefer and have an answer given to them that they feel is more directed at the way they worded it. How many people accidentally misinterpreted something at some point in life that if they asked for better clarification, they may not have made the mistake? I don't know the definition of every word out there and im sure words are used incorrectly by people that think they know what they are saying, also risking possible misinterpretation. Sometimes clarification is nice to have. It may be redundant but sometimes necessary for ones own understanding. 

To go along with number 3, maybe you are smarter than some people. I know I have tried to teach people stuff that I feel is simple and they should understand, but my background on whatever the subject is may be different than theirs, or just an intelligence level difference. Putting myself in their shoes is sometimes necessary. Hard at times, yes. Guess that's why im not a teacher.

Done my rant, sorry bored at work.

Ps....the OP didn't ask if it was right or wrong to mix. People see mixing discussed and immediately seem to assume that is the question.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Something that cracks me up is when you see someone lecturing about searching who a month prior was the one getting lectured to about it. 

Like it was an initiation.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

To start, the OP's question is valid. I've read a lot of mixing posts, but I don't know of an original post that comes from quite a standpoint. Manuran did an excellent job of giving a possible (very possible) origin of where the mindset first originated. But since then there are a lot of additional reasons which back the practice. Ed mentioned outbreeding depression. There are also novel pathogens. And probably half a dozen others that can be found by reading old mixing threads....



kitcolebay said:


> I understand that some people who have been a part of these forums for years do get tired of seeing some of the same subjects brought up and discussed over and over again. I've only been reading these forums for less than 6 months and I've witnessed it myself...over and over. Please keep in mind though that these forums have a tremendous amount of information to share that takes a considerable amount of time to absorb. Longer for some. I occasionally get disappointed or frustrated at the lack of respect given by some on here towards newer members or certain questions. Some people are made to feel very unwanted when asking a question on here and scared off.
> A few basic thoughts I wish would be kept in mind when posting...
> Please treat others how you wish to be treated.
> Treat others with respect.
> ...


I remember when I used to have this mentality. But after... four years on the forum? I know a bit about what the guys who've been on the forum for twelve years feel like....



mantisdragon91 said:


> Didn't realize this forum revolved around the desires if the few. Don't like the topic move on. People have a right to discuss this as many times as they like.






mantisdragon91 said:


> Didn't realize that a homework assignment needed to be completed to participate in this forum
> 
> In a open format there should be no taboo subjects, and if there are who determines what they are... you, me or some other person who is no more relevant than anyone else on here. People have the right to ask questions on any topic that is dart related. When we start discouraging people from asking questions and instead just tell them to go look it up in old threads, we stunt the growth of the hobby and discourage the participation of new comers. How many threads do you think would actually be on Dendroboard if only topics and questions that have not previously been addressed were allowed to be posted?


People have the right to discuss whatever they like (as long as it's not violent, bullying, pornographic, etc). Homework is not required to participate in the forum. Mixing is a taboo practice, not a taboo subject. However, without older, more knowledgeable members willing to respond to a post, what do you have? You have a bunch of people who have been keeping darts for six months playing Telephone. No, you should not be condemned for posting about something that has already been posted before. But yes, you should do a little research (especially first coming in to the forum) on a topic to at least TRY to mitigate the number of times an older user has to make the same post....


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

Just as you are all saying the OP has a right to ask questions, the experienced and long-time board members have a right to voice their frustrations, it goes both ways.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

this wasn't an ordinary mixing question thread. plus the person who started this thread clearly read material on the topic.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

whitethumb said:


> this wasn't an ordinary mixing question thread. plus the person who started this thread clearly read material on the topic.


I feel like every post lately about mixing has started with "I know long time members get frustrated with this question, but..." or "I know it's heavily frowned upon, but..." Clearly almost every posted who posts about mixing has read some applicable material on the topic. Which, in my mind, makes it worse. It shows that they've found a thread or two about mixing and didn't even bother to read the whole way through it to see if their questions have been answered in that thread.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> I feel like every post lately about mixing has started with "I know long time members get frustrated with this question, but..." or "I know it's heavily frowned upon, but..." Clearly almost every posted who posts about mixing has read some applicable material on the topic. Which, in my mind, makes it worse. It shows that they've found a thread or two about mixing and didn't even bother to read the whole way through it to see if their questions have been answered in that thread.


So what? Last time I checked it is still an open forum. If you are tired of seeing something than don't read it. No one is holding a gun to your head to read these threads, much less post on them. No one has the right to tell people they can't post something just because something similar may have been posted a week, a day or even an hour ago. If that ever occurs then this will no longer be a forum that I will want to be a part of.


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## Herpelcano (May 1, 2010)

This post will probably ruin any chance i have of becoming a contributing member of this forum but regardless I feel compelled to enter in the discussion. I am curious how many of the people who have entered into this discussion know what they are talking about. For example people often mention that crossing multiple populations could lead to less healthy animals. Yes this is a possibility but just as likely and probably more likely is the possibility of hybrid vigor(im not speaking of crossing species but lines in the same sense as you would cross two breeds of dogs that are still in the same species. Then their are the people who come up with answers like why would you or or you are just not educated enough in dart frog husbandry. These responses to me are just an attempt to cognitive dissonance they are experiencing because at some point before they thought through the debate someone told them not to mix morphs and they took that advice as law without considering anything else. Now when questioned on the subject they can not figure out why they feel that way or simply choose not find a reason for why they believe something.

Their are two solid reasons not to mix morphs in the dart frog hobby. The first is the fact that unlike most reptile and amphibian species dart frog populations tend to be highly differentiated in outward appearance based on locales. Where as ball pythons typically look very similar no matter where they are collected from darts can have entirely different colors as well as patterns. For this reason many wish to not mix morphs so as to preserve this variability found in nature as opposed to artificially creating it through selective breeding and crossing of various colors. The second reason given is the fact that the wild dart frog populations along with the ecosystems they inhabit are extremely fragile and now with the onslaught of chytrid fungus these frogs face the possibility of extinction in the wild. The idea of keeping the bloodlines pure is that in the event of extinction captive bred frogs could be used to repopulate their wild locales. 

Although I can respect both points and the efforts people are making to preserve the originality of the frogs I can also respect anyone elses choice to mix morphs or selectively breed them for whatever trait they choose as long as they do it in a responsible manner. This includes labeling any progency as crossbreds and ensuring that no crossbreds reenter the original lines.

At the end of the day I think think the reason crossing frogs and selective breeding of frogs has become such a taboo is because dart frogs tend to be at the more advanced end of the spectrum of herpotological husbandry. Like any other hobby Their is a certain amount of politics and elitism. The heads of any hobby especially in those that involve breeding animals have placed value in certain aspects and in the case of darts that aspect that has the most value attributed to it is the how true the specimen is to it's original locale. For this reason anyone who thinks differently, just as someone who believes a dog breed looks best with a trait that is not part of the breed standard, is considered for lack of better words noobish.


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## Tarkah (Jun 6, 2009)

You know what? I like this thread. The Op wasn't asking "why can't I mix?" 

They were asking why YOU people of the community did not mix.

Ya we do our homework and we read mixing 101, and all the other thousands of mixing threads and you know what? None of them ever answers that question. 

Thread after thread it goes like this: Why can't i mix? 
"No", "cause it makes you a terrible frog owner", "hybrids are bad", "cause only terrible people do it". "only dense people ask that question!"

That is what newbies get from those threads. 

But Op has asked why you agree. 

But none of these threads ever explain how that came into existence, why does the community follow this mindset. 

In part i venture out far enough to believe that some follow this "no mix rule" so that they dont get yelled at by other members. And then in turn they too yell at newbies because that's the thing to do.

But do half of the people who say "people who mix are dumb" really know the reasoning behind it? 

I'm not saying that I endorse people to mix, or think mixing is great myself.

but i'm tired of having the same shallow answer with no explanation over and over and over again


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

I feel that if someone thinks the hobby keeping frogs hybrid free will help repopulate the wild in the event of extinction, has really high and naive expectations.

And on that topic since chytrid was used as a reason for extinction.....why would someone release frogs back into the wild in an area where the frogs were wiped out by chytrid? Does the chytrid simply disappear?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Herpelcano said:


> For example people often mention that crossing multiple populations could lead to less healthy animals. Yes this is a possibility but just as likely and probably more likely is the possibility of hybrid vigor(im not speaking of crossing species but lines in the same sense as you would cross two breeds of dogs that are still in the same species.


Actually this is technically not "hybrid" vigor but "crossbred" vigor. Hybrid vigor is correct when used to discuss crossing different populations of plants but not animals (there have been discussions on this in the past (see . And it is also considered a big risk for captive populations since you can end up with crossbred vigor in say generation one and two and outbreeding depression in generations three, four and five which can actually result in extinction of the population. This reference (free access) actually does a good job of discussing the risks of outbreeding depression and inbreeding depression... http://www.uvm.edu/rsenr/wfb224/edmands.pdf 




Herpelcano said:


> At the end of the day I think think the reason crossing frogs and selective breeding of frogs has become such a taboo is because dart frogs tend to be at the more advanced end of the spectrum of herpotological husbandry.


I certainly don't consider it to be more advanced particularly since it has advanced to the point of having recipes for success that enable a large number of people to care for and breed the frogs without understanding the actual needs of the frogs..... I will stop that discussion here since it will take us off topic..... 




Herpelcano said:


> Like any other hobby Their is a certain amount of politics and elitism. The heads of any hobby especially in those that involve breeding animals have placed value in certain aspects and in the case of darts that aspect that has the most value attributed to it is the how true the specimen is to it's original locale. For this reason anyone who thinks differently, just as someone who believes a dog breed looks best with a trait that is not part of the breed standard, is considered for lack of better words noobish.


I think this last paragraph is a bunch of bull... There are way too many people producing frogs to attempt to do what you are alleging here.... In addition, I haven't seen the elitism your claiming to be a major player in this hobby. People actually tend to be very interested in helping others find the frogs they want and helping provide information for thier care.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> I feel that if someone thinks the hobby keeping frogs hybrid free will help repopulate the wild in the event of extinction, has really high and naive expectations.
> 
> And on that topic since chytrid was used as a reason for extinction.....why would someone release frogs back into the wild in an area where the frogs were wiped out by chytrid? Does the chytrid simply disappear?


I think the idea that frogs from the hobby would be used as founders have been pretty throughly debunked and at this time, it does not appear that chytrid disappears from a region. 

Some comments

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Tarkah said:


> You know what? I like this thread. The Op wasn't asking "why can't I mix?"
> 
> They were asking why YOU people of the community did not mix.
> 
> Ya we do our homework and we read mixing 101, and all the other thousands of mixing threads and you know what? None of them ever answers that question.


Actually, the answer has been provided repeatedly in multiple threads..... For example we can see a shorter version of Chuck's comment here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...70-please-define-hybrid-pdf-2.html#post648510 

As for other reasons to not cross the "morphs" we have repeatedly discussed outbreeding depression and it's risk to a captive population including a lot of literature on the risk both from frogs and other taxa..... 

So to claim that this is a novel question is actually not correct.... and the question has been answered repeatedly and even relatively frequently..... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> And I have a diffrent take on this issue. This forum was created to allow people of diffrent experience levels to share information and view points with each other. It's bad enough when a member posts things like this:
> 
> *I'm more interested why you can't just let it be. Lousy topic for your first posts.*
> 
> ...


Roman, one of the things that your response ignores is that most forums expect at least a little research on a topic particularly one that is sensitive to the membership at large, as that is considered polite. As I noted in posts above this one, this is not a novel question and it has been discussed repeatedly including the exact answer they recieved. I find it a little hard to believe that a person who has been reading about crossbreeding on the forum for even a short period of time to have missed the prior disucssions....... 

The etiquette is what Scott was getting at in his posts..... 

Some comments

Ed


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

I largley agree with Maunuran's statement earlier in this thread. To me there are two reasons to not mix morphs, an moral reason and a scientific reason.
Though I've kept herps since I was 14 (42 now) my passion for many years was Cichlids, particularly African Rift Lake Cichlids. 
Those fish hold many parallels to our beloved Dart Frogs. If you look at Lake Malawi or Tanganyika for example, you will find many species of fish spread throughout the lake but yet isolated from other populations of the same species. These isoloated populations have developed into morphs just like the frogs. Moreover they are currently evolving into their own seperate, distinct species. The same is true with Dart Frogs. One day in the future, all the various Tinc morphs for example, will be classified as their own species. 
If we mix all those morphs together through planned or unplanned breeding we are undoing thousands of years worth of natural selection. 
Even when I was keeping fish I was aware that I could keep a community tank of fish, but I could never distribute any babies from that tank. Too many possible crosses were likely. I could never be sure who bred with who. 
Could one keep a "community" of dart frogs? Maybe. I'm not advocating it, nor would I ever want to do it personally. I for one think if something like that is going to be attemepted it should be by a seasoned frog keeper and not someone one new to frogs. Any offspring produced in such a community or mixed setting are worthless, should be culled, destroyed, lest they get into the hobby somehow.
I'm not sure that we as hobbyistis are doing the heavy lifting when it comes to conservation, but think about this. If hypothetically all the wild dart frogs were wiped out all at once, this hobby could still continue. Yes we would have a smaller gene pool to work with without regular importations. The same could not be said about the reef hobby which would die an instant death. 
The moral question is just as cut and dried for me. I appreciate the natural beauty of animals as they were created in the wild. I'm against all forms of man made animals such as parrot cichlids, leatherback bearded dragons, the 10,000 different varities of ball pythons and corn snakes, etc. I don't even think albino animals are attractive, though I realize that is a naturally occuring variation. But how many albino animals would actually survive to adulthood and reproduce in the wild? Why does man feel they have the right to play God if you will? Who the hell do you think you are? Are the umpteen different morphs of Tincs, Pumilio, etc not enough? You could never keep all of them in a lifetime so why try and create new ones? 
When it comes down to it, it takes zero talent or skill to mix different morphs, breed them and distribute the offspring. It DOES however take dedication to work with a species generation after generation, keeping it a pure bred morph. Those are the people I want to associate with. 

Herpelcano, that is a somewhat provacative first post. Any reason you choose not to identify yourself to the forum? All the elitists want to put you on their no buy list.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed said:


> I think the idea that frogs from the hobby would be used as founders have been pretty throughly debunked and at this time, it does not appear that chytrid disappears from a region.
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


I was more asking the question as a way of making a point that using frogs in a location where chytrid wiped out the frog population...to repopulate seemed like a silly idea. Glad to have your confirmation on it though.


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

Ed said:


> Actually, the answer has been provided repeatedly in multiple threads..... For example we can see a shorter version of Chuck's comment here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/be...70-please-define-hybrid-pdf-2.html#post648510
> 
> As for other reasons to not cross the "morphs" we have repeatedly discussed outbreeding depression and it's risk to a captive population including a lot of literature on the risk both from frogs and other taxa.....
> 
> ...


Hi Ed,
Certainly all the possible conversations about this have been discussed in depth many, many times on this forum. With a lot of fantastic answers. 
The reason I felt that this was a new question is that it asked not why we as a hobby believe in what we do, but where did these ideas come from. Has it been expanded and do we have a much more sophisticated reason for doing what we do? Absolutely! But, if the question is where did this belief come from, that has created a hobby with such a strong self-awareness, then I saw that as fairly unique. 

Anyway, just my take on it.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Roman, one of the things that your response ignores is that most forums expect at least a little research on a topic particularly one that is sensitive to the membership at large, as that is considered polite. As I noted in posts above this one, this is not a novel question and it has been discussed repeatedly including the exact answer they recieved. I find it a little hard to believe that a person who has been reading about crossbreeding on the forum for even a short period of time to have missed the prior disucssions.......
> 
> *The etiquette is what Scott was getting at in his posts..... *
> 
> ...


Ed,

Even if I agree with your premise at face value, I strongly believe that as a "Moderator" Scott should have chosen his words more carefully. Even more offensively in my eyes and what drew me into this conversation was his second post less than half an hour after his first one which can be clearly seen in the thread was not triggered by the OP or any one else:

*... and some of us are tired of having the same discussion over and over and over and over ...

Enough already.

s *

And as for etiquette perhaps I should share Scott's PM to me imediatly after my first post accusing me of starting a flame war, and questioning my commitment to the hobby and whether I actually even owned any frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Manuran said:


> Hi Ed,
> Certainly all the possible conversations about this have been discussed in depth many, many times on this forum. With a lot of fantastic answers.
> The reason I felt that this was a new question is that it asked not why we as a hobby believe in what we do, but where did these ideas come from. Has it been expanded and do we have a much more sophisticated reason for doing what we do? Absolutely! But, if the question is where did this belief come from, that has created a hobby with such a strong self-awareness, then I saw that as fairly unique.
> 
> Anyway, just my take on it.


I can accept your extremely reasonable interpretation of it. 

Thanks for the original write up and follow up. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Ed,
> 
> Even if I agree with your premise at face value, I strongly believe that as a "Moderator" Scott should have chosen his words more carefully. Even more offensively in my eyes and what drew me into this conversation was his second post less than half an hour after his first one which can be clearly seen in the thread was not triggered by the OP or any one else:
> 
> ...


Roman,

Regardless of any other point, when did becoming a moderator preclude a person from having thier own opinion? As far as I know and I've seen, everyone is entitled to thier own opinion including the moderators (and we've seen them repeatedly post thier own thoughts on topics since there isn't any "Dendroboard" positional policy on these topics). To expect a moderator to play political word games is unreasonable.... 

I have to say, when I saw the title, I thought crud here we go another flame war... As someone who has been on here for quite awhile I've seen more than a few of them on this topic and it is virtually always a real pain in the neck for the moderators. 

As for the rest of it, that was between Scott and you, and the fact that you took it to the forum even through inference, is a strong indication you do want to start a flame war. Personally I've recieved more than my fair share of nasty pms and I've dealt with them off the board, and I have to say that you decided to charge it right onto the boards is disappointing. 

I'm not going to respond to this topic further since it would be too much of a further hijack... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> So what? Last time I checked it is still an open forum. If you are tired of seeing something than don't read it. No one is holding a gun to your head to read these threads, much less post on them. No one has the right to tell people they can't post something just because something similar may have been posted a week, a day or even an hour ago. If that ever occurs then this will no longer be a forum that I will want to be a part of.


You're right. Maybe, from now on, instead of looking at threads like this and attempting to provide some insight from my limited perspective on an issue (regardless of my feeling to whether or not the question should have been asked in the first place) I'll lurk until I can start correcting other members of the forum on the proper etiquette on how to answer a n00bie's post. That's a way more productive use of my time.



Herpelcano said:


> This post will probably ruin any chance i have of becoming a contributing member of this forum but regardless I feel compelled to enter in the discussion. I am curious how many of the people who have entered into this discussion know what they are talking about. For example people often mention that crossing multiple populations could lead to less healthy animals. Yes this is a possibility but just as likely and probably more likely is the possibility of hybrid vigor(im not speaking of crossing species but lines in the same sense as you would cross two breeds of dogs that are still in the same species. Then their are the people who come up with answers like why would you or or you are just not educated enough in dart frog husbandry. These responses to me are just an attempt to cognitive dissonance they are experiencing because at some point before they thought through the debate someone told them not to mix morphs and they took that advice as law without considering anything else. Now when questioned on the subject they can not figure out why they feel that way or simply choose not find a reason for why they believe something.
> 
> Their are two solid reasons not to mix morphs in the dart frog hobby. The first is the fact that unlike most reptile and amphibian species dart frog populations tend to be highly differentiated in outward appearance based on locales. Where as ball pythons typically look very similar no matter where they are collected from darts can have entirely different colors as well as patterns. For this reason many wish to not mix morphs so as to preserve this variability found in nature as opposed to artificially creating it through selective breeding and crossing of various colors. The second reason given is the fact that the wild dart frog populations along with the ecosystems they inhabit are extremely fragile and now with the onslaught of chytrid fungus these frogs face the possibility of extinction in the wild. The idea of keeping the bloodlines pure is that in the event of extinction captive bred frogs could be used to repopulate their wild locales.
> 
> ...


Ed has debunked a lot of the misinformation in this post (not that all of it is wrong, that is). But your second reason for keeping morphs away from one another might once have been a reason... but it's been shown on the board a few times that few or no captive frogs are suitable for a repopulation project.... Also, there are a lot more reasons than the two you have listed to keep localities separated from one another.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

SmackoftheGods said:


> You're right. Maybe, from now on, instead of looking at threads like this and attempting to provide some insight from my limited perspective on an issue (regardless of my feeling to whether or not the question should have been asked in the first place) I'll lurk until I can start correcting other members of the forum on the proper etiquette on how to answer a n00bie's post. That's a way more productive use of my time.


Obviously based on your response a more productive use of your time seems to be defending someone who left two back to back abrasive posts with no clear provocation. This certainly makes new members feel warm and fuzzy about listing new questions on here.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I should have gone back and deleted my posts. They were done in a moment of extreme impatience.

Manuran's post is the definitive answer here - everything else since then is just conjecture.

Case closed.

s


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