# leg thrashing



## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

I noticed my probable female el cope auratus thrashing its rear legs as if to kick off something. I had noticed this behavior in my leuc juvies a few weeks ago and came to the conclusion it was a calcium deficiency i ordered some repashy calcium plus and started using that at every feeding for all my frogs. The leucs have since stopped the leg thrashing, but i just noticed it for the first time in the el cope last night while it was eating. Temps are in the low to mid 70s humidity 80% to95%. Could this be a deficiency presenting itself after i began using the proper supplements? The cal plus is less than 2 weeks old. 

To put more details about the trashing; it didnt look like a seizure or spasms per say more like kicking off substrate or a fly. It lasted about 10 seconds, then stopped and started again a few seconds later, this went on for about a minute. The frog was standing on top of excess supplements on the leaf litter though ive never seen another frog do that on supplements. I dust every feeding and feed everyday but skip a day or 2 a week. It otherwise looks healthy and very active and bold.

Please help, it really freaked me out.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I see my leucs do that when they walk across dust that has dropped into the tank during feeding. Also, one of Bill Schwinn's tinc pairs would do that when I misted the tank. They acted like I was spraying them with flesh melting acid. I think they are just uncomfortable and trying to shake it off.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogface said:


> I see my leucs do that when they walk across dust that has dropped into the tank during feeding. Also, one of Bill Schwinn's tinc pairs would do that when I misted the tank. They acted like I was spraying them with flesh melting acid. I think they are just uncomfortable and trying to shake it off.


Oh my gosh THANK YOU Kris. It did look like it was uncomfortable. Thanks so much. Made me feel alot better. Ill keep a close eye on it still to make sure. On a side note, i appreciate you chiming in, i read alot of your threads and hold you up there with all the other awesome froggers here on dendroboard.


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## IEatBugs (May 15, 2012)

Not sure I am of much assistance but I don't believe you have anything to worry about unless it seems to be constant. My citronella pair do this every time the mister goes off. Just as the previous poster said they act as if it were melting their skin. It's only this pair of mine that seem to hate the water do much. Others will stay in it or hide under some foilage or litter.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks. Like i said i saw it in my leuc juvies when i had been using repashy supervite as a stand alone supplement (i failed to fully read the label and missed the fact that it didnt have sufficient calcium. Dont make the same mistake READ LABELS FULLY.) Then they stopped within 3 days of switching to cal plus. Its good to hear that this is not an isolated incident. Thanks again for the insight yall.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Do they have somewhere to soak to wash themselves off? I watched a Leuc, with a bit of substrate stuck to his leg, do summersaults across the tank and roll right into his pond. It was hysterical


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

frogface said:


> Do they have somewhere to soak to wash themselves off? I watched a Leuc, with a bit of substrate stuck to his leg, do summersaults across the tank and roll right into his pond. It was hysterical


I would like to see video of that.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogface said:


> Do they have somewhere to soak to wash themselves off? I watched a Leuc, with a bit of substrate stuck to his leg, do summersaults across the tank and roll right into his pond. It was hysterical


They dont, i had put a petri dish with water in it for the leucs but they ignored it for a week so i pulled it out. The el cope is in a sterlite QT box due to supposed feeding agression between her and her tank mate. ("he" went from being semi bold then disappeared for a week and re-appeared very skinny. My fault for worrying so much about over feeding that i was underfeeding) im hoping to reunite them soon, im just waiting for the probable male to pack on some weight. Speaking of, instead of opening a new thread, could someone post a picture of a male auratus? El cope preferred, but im sure i can get a general idea of the weight im looking for. They have been seperated for almost a month, and while the female is nice and round looking the other no longer looks unhealthily skinny, it is not close to the girth of the other. Also i should add that from the info i got from the seller if they are not a pair there is a 95% chance they are both female. I dont know how much toe pad size factors into sexing auratus, they both have almost identical sized toes, with the probable males being slightly bigger.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

and her tank mate. ("he" went from being semi bold then disappeared for a week and re-appeared very skinny

This would make sense if they were both females and one was dominant.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I find auratus to be very difficult to sex. There are some pics on my computer at home that show a 1.1 pair. I'll post them up for you tonight.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

billschwinn said:


> and her tank mate. ("he" went from being semi bold then disappeared for a week and re-appeared very skinny
> 
> This would make sense if they were both females and one was dominant.


That was my first guess but according to the seller (whom i trust his judgement) they arent old enough to be showing sexual agression. They are about 11 to 13 months old


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

papajuggalo said:


> That was my first guess but according to the seller (whom i trust his judgement) they arent old enough to be showing sexual agression. They are about 11 to 13 months old


That may have been his experience, in my experiences I have had Auratus and Tincs breed at 11 months old. Just remember the frogs did not read the book explaining how they are supposed to be, they can behave out of the ordinary.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

billschwinn said:


> That may have been his experience, in my experiences I have had Auratus and Tincs breed at 11 months old. Just remember the frogs did not read the book explaining how they are supposed to be, they can behave out of the ordinary.


Very good point. What makes me lean more towards feeding aggression is that the one showing agression was also losing weight. Another thing is the only time i saw aggression (i didn't realize it was aggression at the time) was once during feeding, the probable female launched at the other when it was coming out to feed, and once when i played a call.

Edit: i am not ruling out sexual agression completely. I am making sure it isnt a case of "user error" (for lack of a better term) before coming to that conclusion. The seller bought these as a group, raised them communally, then paired them out. They showed no signs of aggression during that time, and the other pairs are doing just fine together. It is definitely possible they are both females. I want to add that i place no blame on the seller, i know he didnt knowingly sell me 2 females. He even offered up his male from his personal pair to make mine a pair.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Something to consider, aggression many times can be mental which you will not see. Also, what better way to eliminate your adversary than to gradually weaken him by depriving of food, further weakening of the victim through starvation.In the wild the victim would have moved along away from the aggressor long before going hungry, something it cannot do in the tank.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

What would you suggest i do? My plan was to fatten them both up the reintroduce them in the tank. Should i go with that and keep a close eye on them or keep them seperate until i can accurately sex them? Also, about what age would you say it would be apparent? The one who was being bullied is smaller in length and even after putting on some weight still has the somewhat linear appearance of a male, while the aggressor has rounded out. They are both on the same general feeding schedule but the smaller one tends to eat less.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Here are some pics of an auratus pair I had.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

frogface said:


> Here are some pics of an auratus pair I had.


Thanks! These actually look very close to mine in body shape, but mine look smaller. The smaller one decided to grace me with his presence and looks muuuch better. Hes been eating well and active (but very skittish and shy) so i decided to pop in the female and see how it went. Within 10 minutes both were out and about. I moved their favorite hiding spot before i did and now theyre both hanging out in there, so i guess well see how it goes. Im going to watch close and see if theres any aggression at all and will pull the smaller if there is. Now if they do end up having to be split is there a chance ill ever be able to put them together with a male and get along?


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## mrzoggs (May 27, 2012)

Just figured I'd chime in and let you know my luecs do the same when being misted. Same as frogface said.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

billschwinn said:


> That may have been his experience, in my experiences I have had Auratus and Tincs breed at 11 months old. Just remember the frogs did not read the book explaining how they are supposed to be, they can behave out of the ordinary.


Bill, when I caught my frogs reading up on Dendroboard, I took away their computer. If they learn too much, it's just a matter of time before they rise up and rebel against us!

Seriously though, for the OP, I just want to add that you should also be trying to limit the amount of extra supplement dust that goes into your viv. Besides the issues you've already seen, excess dust will kill mosses. It can also be a problem with microfauna. Isopods LOVE to eat extra supplement dust. That can be a problem if too much is consumed over time. Some of the vitamins, like vitamin E (tocopherols), can be stored in the bugs at hundreds or even thousands of times the natural levels. Then, when your frogs eat enough isopods, the vitamin E in the frogs is too high. If the vitamin E levels in your frogs get high enough, this can block vitamin A and Vitamin D uptake. Once the vitamin D is blocked, your calcium becomes useless. If your frogs cannot utilize the calcium, then it's only a matter of time before seizures set in, followed by death.

Yes, dust your flies, but try to avoid dumping in the dust that is not sticking to your flies.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks doug! I remember reading that on one of your microfauna threads talking about giving the excess to cultures. I hadnt even thought about it happening in the tank! I do try to limit but i have been slacking a bit. I always pour the flies out of the supp. Cup into another to go in the tanks so what was in there wasnt much but like you said, over time it adds up. Thanks for the heads up, ill try my best to keep it to an absolute minimum.


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Males will look very skinny next to plump females. Just keep that in mind when deciding if they are "too skinny". A quick way to fatten them up is to put a piece of banana in the QT tank with him and some flies. The flies will lay eggs, which will turn into larva on the banana. The larva is a nice fatty food for them. The frogs will eat up the larva and get fat fast. I have taken an underweight frog and significantly increased the size this way. Post some pictures of your frogs


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

papajuggalo said:


> Thanks doug! I remember reading that on one of your microfauna threads talking about giving the excess to cultures. I hadnt even thought about it happening in the tank! I do try to limit but i have been slacking a bit. I always pour the flies out of the supp. Cup into another to go in the tanks so what was in there wasnt much but like you said, over time it adds up. Thanks for the heads up, ill try my best to keep it to an absolute minimum.


Yes, I did once discuss giving old, expired supplements to my isopod cultures. I have since learned differently. One short comment by Ed inspired a good bit of research, and led me to change a few of my practices. 


Ed said:


> Aren't you concerned about tocopherol sequestering?


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

These pictures are while they were in the process of fattening up so they may look a bit skinny, i will try to get some new ones if they give me the chance.

Female belly shot









Male belly









Male









Female









And 2 of my leucs just because 









Thanks for the insight everybody. It is very much appreciated and i feel honored to have some of my frogger idols chip in on my thread.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Beautiful! I think they look good. Could be a pair but I defer to others because auratus are tough for me. Maybe give them more cover so they are more at ease. Have we seen a pic of the tank?


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

A closer picture of the feet would help in sexing. They both look good. The male might be a tad thin when looking at the picture from the top. However, his belly shot made his legs look much thicker and fatter. Has the leg thrashing stopped?


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Im trying to post a tank shot but imgur is being difficult. Im going to try to attach it. The leg thrashing has stopped, im pretty sure it was the excess supplements. The tank isnt as grown in as they would like i think. Its pretty heavily planted but it probably couldve used more time before they were introduced. First frogs and tank so mistakes were made :/

Imgur decided to work so heres a tank shot. Its about a month old so theres been some growth but it still needs to fill out. I added a few black film cans to give them somewhere to dive for cover besides the cork tube and leaf litter.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

That looks pretty good for cover, imo. Leaves and hidey places for them to get away from each other.


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Well heres the FTS i meant to post lol


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## jeeperrs (Jan 14, 2010)

Nice tank! It is looking great!


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Thanks jeepers! Ill be the first to admit the my leuc tank looks better though lmao. 

I know its too soon to tell but theyve been doing very well since theyve been back together. The male is still very skittish UNLESS the female is out first. Then i can walk straight up to the tank and they dont bat an eye. I am doing my best to give them space for the time being while still keeping a close eye. Ill keep you all updated. No signs of leg thrashing  ive also been making a conscious effort to cut down on the excess supplements. Thanks to all yet again for putting my mind at ease!!!


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Update for anyone following 
The auratus are doing great! Almost a week and no signs of aggression. Both are eating very well and gaining weight fast. I added about another 1" or 2" of leaf litter and they seem to love it. Has noticeably made them less skittish. No pictures yet as im giving them as much space as possible, but they have gone from being hidden almost all day to coming out at least a few times a day. No calling at all but the one we are hoping to be male is still smaller and has a smaller "frame" than the supposed female. Not sure if i should attempt to encourage courtship or let them settle in longer. Any opinions? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Edit: i guess its been just about a week. Even better. Short time but huge improvements.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I would leave them be, for now. Frogs know how to court on their own


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## papafrogger (Oct 21, 2012)

Well for anyone who was following......

I just heard the male call!!!! I recently seperated them due to supposed aggression and just heard a faint buzz from his tub!

Officially my first dart frog call. Is it sad that i did a happy dance?

Sent from my LG-LS840 using Tapatalk 2


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

Grats! I understand completely. The first time I heard one of my frogs call, he got his own, long, 'my frog is calling!' thread.


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