# Can you get a stomach virus from your frog tank?



## arkay (Dec 26, 2007)

This weekend I completely tore apart one of my tanks down to bare glass like new. Needless to say I had my hands all in the dirt and crap in the tank. I had a raised floor so had to ciphen out the water too (not something I havent done 100 times before). 

2 days later I came down with what seems like food poisoning where no one else in my family did and we all ate basically the same stuff. I was wondering if it was possible to pick up a bacteria from the dirty water or dirt from clearing the tank? Like Giardiasis or Salmonellosis. 

Anyone else have any experiences like this?


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

possible yes but likely no. much more likely you picked it up from another human. things like giardia are transmitted from human fecal contamination of something that goes into your mouth. just assuming that nothing in your tank has been pooped on, its unlikely most GI parasites or disease causing bacteria have been introduced to your tank. just to correct a bit neither organism you listed is a virus.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

My non-medical advice is to go to a doctor if your symptoms do not start improving, and tell them about sucking on frog siphoning tubes. 

I manually siphon from my tanks, too, and yea, blech.


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## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

Yes, it's very possible that you could contract something from your frog tank. A virus, I'm not sure of the likelihood, but a bacterial infection or some sort of parasite is possible. It really depends on how you were in contact with any water, etc. If you used your lips to siphon the water you could obviously get some in your mouth. Overall, there's tons of stuff in frog tanks that could infect you. Bacteria, parasites, and other pathogens can be present very easily. For instance, if you have snails in your tank they can carry a parasite that's responsible for a lot of disease worldwide. Plus a tank that's generally wet and in the best temperature zone for bacteria growth can be full of bacteria. 

I've looked into this as I had a similar experience but it turned out to be something else. Overall, it's probably not very likely but depending on how you were exposed would determine the likelihood of you contracting something from your tank. I'm a biologist and one day I was bored so I looked at several slides I prepared from a few frog tanks just to see what was swimming around. I found some really interesting organisms running around, from spirillum to flukes along with a ton of unidentified little creatures. Having a background in food sanitation I can tell you that if you were sick very quickly after you ate, and you hadn't just eaten seafood, it would not be likely it was because of what you ate. Generally salmonella and E. coli take 36-72 hours to make you sick. While the only food that will do so almost immediately after is seafood. If problems persist check with your doc but you should be fine. Hope this helped.


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## suztor (Aug 14, 2011)

I got my self super sick when I was lazy, cheap and enierly stupid and used an old seriously molded 20 ft siphon hose and did it erm... manually? (sucking to get it going). Sore body, sore breathing and high fever for 2 days. Luckily I got better w/o going to doc but I learned my lesson! Scared the crap out of me!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skanderson said:


> possible yes but likely no. much more likely you picked it up from another human. things like giardia are transmitted from human fecal contamination of something that goes into your mouth. just assuming that nothing in your tank has been pooped on, its unlikely most GI parasites or disease causing bacteria have been introduced to your tank. just to correct a bit neither organism you listed is a virus.


 
Giardia is also carried by raccoons,beavers and a number of other mammals.. so basically you have a risk giardia from any unsanitized water that is in contact with wildlife....it doesn't have to be humans. 

There are a lot of different bacteria that can inhabit the enclosure and be suspended in the water that can make you sick.. for example Listeria, Shigella ssp, Staphylococcus sp, Streptococcus sp, Proteus ssp.... If you have a good population of cyanobacteria in the enclosure, you could also have cyanobacterial poisoning.. 

Siphoning by mouth is a bad idea.... 

Ed


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

guess I won't do that anymore...you all scared the BeJesus out of me...and here I thought it was the Big Mac....


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Ed said:


> Giardia is also carried by raccoons,beavers and a number of other mammals.. so basically you have a risk giardia from any unsanitized water that is in contact with wildlife....it doesn't have to be humans.
> 
> There are a lot of different bacteria that can inhabit the enclosure and be suspended in the water that can make you sick.. for example Listeria, Shigella ssp, Staphylococcus sp, Streptococcus sp, Proteus ssp.... If you have a good population of cyanobacteria in the enclosure, you could also have cyanobacterial poisoning..
> 
> ...


Second that Ed. All I can think about is this show Monster Inside Me, I think its on NatGeo. I'm not a big TV watcher, but if its on I watch it. Very scary stuff, primarily about parsites that humans contract usually from exotic foods, animals, but sometimes very ordinary situations. Recently had one about Listeria and Acanthamoeba both seem possible in viv water. Anyway, after watching that show, I would strongly advise against manual siphoning frog water. You wouldn't drink water from a swamp or a pond or even most streams so...

either way, hope your OK Arkay


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I have gotten rather sick from detritus in a reef tank. I was trying to get a syphion going and got a nasty shot of ick down my throat. Ive seen what lives in that water I can only imagine what kind of nasties are in the stagnant filth of viv drainage. If only I didnt fry my digital microscope by accidently plugging in the wrong power supply.


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

hey D3monic, did you ever heal from that polytoxin in the eye?


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

cbreon said:


> Second that Ed. All I can think about is this show Monster Inside Me, I think its on NatGeo. I'm not a big TV watcher, but if its on I watch it. Very scary stuff, primarily about parsites that humans contract usually from exotic foods, animals, but sometimes very ordinary situations. Recently had one about Listeria and Acanthamoeba both seem possible in viv water. Anyway, after watching that show, I would strongly advise against manual siphoning frog water. You wouldn't drink water from a swamp or a pond or even most streams so...
> 
> either way, hope your OK Arkay


check out hotzone. 

http://www.amazon.com/Hot-Zone-Terrifying-True-Story/dp/0385479565


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## itsott (Nov 25, 2010)

Im sure you could catch something from it. However, working at a hospital has taught me there is always a new bug, virus or infection going around. Infact sunday morning i woke up sick as all get out. I wont go into details to spare those with weak something but i had it rough. Stomach cramps and spent most of sunday in the bathroom and bed. Woke up monday and was fine. The only tank contact i had saturday was misting a few temp tanks. I also always sanitize my hands throughly after touching anything in my vivs. Might want to invest in an auto siphon. Its not overly expensive but it saves you mouthfuls of crap really crap.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

For anyone that doesn't know they do make a siphon that you don't need to use you mouth for. It looks like a turkey baster with a tube comeing out the side. All you do is squeez the top a few times to get it going. They are ment for fule and are sold at ace hardware for $5. 

thinking about suck starting one just makes me gag


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## gardennub (Dec 10, 2011)

I think a lot of reptiles and amphibians have a good chance of carrying salmonella. Correct me if im wrong


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I found something for us, arkay. Only 5 bucks! Much better than a mouth full of frog poo water. 

Custom® Siphon Pump (36668) - Funnels, Pans & Syphons - Ace Hardware


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## tahir tareen (Dec 17, 2009)

for what its worth i manually siphon my aquariums(freshwater) weekly and have done so for quite awhile with no ill effects. I am always very cautious about not getting tank water in my mouth and promptly spitting it out and washing my mouth out if i do. 

I will definitely be getting a hand-pump start siphon though... parasites are quite an unpleasant thought!


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

curlykid said:


> hey D3monic, did you ever heal from that polytoxin in the eye?


Not sure that was what caused it but yes eventually I did. I went blind for several weeks due bilateral optic neuritis. Most likely from getting super baked during the peak of allergy season. My body started attacking my optic nerves. after weeks of tests from MRIs, cats, spinal taps ect they finally figured out what was wrong. My vision was at 20-2600 I couldnt even recognize faces everything was just a big color blur (also couldnt see the color orange. wierd I know) they started me on daily steroid infusions via IV for a week. Almost immediatly after the first day my visions started to improve. It got better but not back to 20-10. My right eye is fine but my left is a tiny bit blurry. Along with half the pics I take since thats my camera eye. My first MRIs returned with what they thought was a lesion but i got another one a few months back when i was having nerve problems and it was clean. Thanks for asking.

I have one of those crappy syphons with a check valve. You have to shake it up and down to get it to prime. Never really worked that good though.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

D3monic said:


> Not sure that was what caused it but yes eventually I did. I went blind for several weeks due bilateral optic neuritis. Most likely from getting super baked during the peak of allergy season. My body started attacking my optic nerves. after weeks of tests from MRIs, cats, spinal taps ect they finally figured out what was wrong. My vision was at 20-2600 I couldnt even recognize faces everything was just a big color blur (also couldnt see the color orange. wierd I know) they started me on daily steroid infusions via IV for a week. Almost immediatly after the first day my visions started to improve. It got better but not back to 20-10. My right eye is fine but my left is a tiny bit blurry. Along with half the pics I take since thats my camera eye.


OMG! Very glad you improved. How frightening.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

What about a removable mouth piece that you could stick on the end of a tube and then remove and sterilize between, umm, tank slurping?


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## BethInAK (Jul 12, 2011)

My dad got a bad staph infection, the dr said most likely from his fish tank, although he does work in a medical building. When dealing with dirty tank water, be sure to wash your hands thoroughly.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

I've been siphoning tanks for years, starting the siphon by hand and have never gotten sick. The trick is learning to start your siphon without actually placing your mouth in contact with the hose. 

Start with clean hands
Place the end of the hose about 1/4 of the way into your closed fist pinky side.
Press your fingertips firmly into your palm but leave an airspace
Place lips on the end of your fist with thumb and forefinger
Suck hard and fast and then quickly divert to the container of choice

Your mouth is only ever in contact with your clean hand if done correctly. I've literally serviced thousands of aquariums, vivs, etc, starting the siphon this way. It takes a bit of practice but is second nature to me. I can start a siphon with anything from an airline tube to a large 1" diameter siphon hose. All the other mechanical devices or methods just seem to be a big hassle, waste of time, etc.


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

Kris - same principle as what i have just slightly different


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## BR5 (Dec 7, 2009)

I just fill my siphon hose up with tap water and then put a thumb over each end, once I have the hose in the tank I just take my thumb off the other end. The trick is to use a small enough hose so that the water doesn't flow back into the tank before you get the siphon going, and one large enough that it doesn’t take to long. Best part is no mouth involved.
Brian


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## curlykid (Jan 28, 2011)

frogface, it was definitely scary reading about it. everyone on NanoReef was waiting for the next day's update. now everyone uses titanium plated gloves and a welding mask when they frag!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> I've been siphoning tanks for years, starting the siphon by hand and have never gotten sick. The trick is learning to start your siphon without actually placing your mouth in contact with the hose.
> 
> Start with clean hands
> Place the end of the hose about 1/4 of the way into your closed fist pinky side.
> ...


The problem with this method is that you can still be aspirating small droplets into your mouth and lungs... It is way way safer to start the siphon via the tap. Even if some of the water backflows into the tank if you have enough of the siphon below the level of the tank, it will still start. 

There are a number of microbes that can be found in the tank but is really considered a risk for hobbyists working with fish and amphibians.. those are the bacteria in the Mycobacterium marinum group... 

Ed


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

If you breathe the airborne vapor, or take anything into your mouth from siphoning or your hands most definitely. 
Please wash your hands after working in your frog room.

Daryl


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

not to repeat myself but you are much more likely to get an infection from other humans than from your vivs and tanks. anyone who works in a medical building who gets a bad staph infection, most likely MRSA, methocillin resistant Staph aureus got it at work. the average colonization rate in the general public is in the low single digits. if you spend 1 week in a nursing home that rate climbs into the 60s. same type of infection pattern is seen with Clostridium dificile that causes lower GI distress. yes there are alot of different pathogens that can infect humans that spend part or most of their life cycle in other organisms but many of those require cycling between hosts. i would not think that the water coming out of your viv is any more dangerous than the water that people but in their netti pots, and yes i do know about the 2 deaths from ameoba brain infections down in the south from using those things. my advice would be it is always a good idea to be carefull with what you put into your body, but dont get too worried about it. after all your are almost certainly more likely to die from something that is on the meat or veggies you eat than anything coming out of an isolated ecosystem that isnt exposed to human waste.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The risk of infection from the herps isn't what I would call insignificant.. good cleanliness practices are what keep people from ending up as a statistic (and potentially a statistic used to regulate ownership)... 

See for example 
Salmonella Serovars in the Herpetofauna of Indiana County, Pennsylvania (in which 62% of animals tested were positive for salmonella... 

Reptiles, Amphibians, and Human Salmonella Infection: A Population-Based, Case-Control Study 

http://www.cdc.gov/HEALTHYPETS/pdf/javiana.pdf

And these are the rates of prevelence of only one potential pathogen.... 
...

Given that we are discussing the potential to self inoculate through several different methods (swallowing, inhalation, open wounds/lesions (such as breaks in the skin caused by brushing the teeth).. and that there is a significant chance that the frogs are infected with at least one potential pathogen, the risk isn't insignificant. If we simply employ good husbandry and sanitation practices (do not use your mouth to start the siphon (particularly if the hose wasn't disinfected from the last time) ever, we can avoid adding to the statistics... 

Ed


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

im not disagreeing that the pathogens exist but just that the risk of infection is slight. by way of comparison remember that the majority of nursing home and long stay hospital patients are carrying MRSA but only a small number end up with infections.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

skanderson said:


> im not disagreeing that the pathogens exist but just that the risk of infection is slight. by way of comparison remember that the majority of nursing home and long stay hospital patients are carrying MRSA but only a small number end up with infections.


And by comparision, the vast majority of the frogs are carriers for multiple human pathogens (I only pulled up the data that I knew would be easiest to access and most convient) and standard is that all of thier enclosures should be considered positive for multiple pathogens since many of those flourish in the conditions in the enclosures.. Amphibians are considered to be non-clinical carriers of salmonella and can shed salmonella either sporadically or continously... 


This is the recommendations from the CDC on MRSA CDC - MRSA and the Workplace - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic. The risk of infection can be greatly reduced through hand washing or sanitation by the health care workers... so insist on the nurse or caretaker to wash thier hands..... 
This is unlike the discussion at hand since we are looking at the risk to a person who is ignoring the best practices and directly risking inhalation, swallowing or exposure of a cut or scrape by direct exposure to solution that can have multiple pathogens (not even considering exposure through routine maintanence of the enclosure..)... this is a signficant difference compared to your MRSA example... If we were to make a apples to apples comparision, it would require that the person siphoning a solution by mouth that has a greater than 65% chance of containing enough MRSA bugs to cause an infection.... 

Ed


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## Wusserton (Feb 21, 2014)

suztor said:


> I got my self super sick when I was lazy, cheap and enierly stupid and used an old seriously molded 20 ft siphon hose and did it erm... manually? (sucking to get it going). Sore body, sore breathing and high fever for 2 days. Luckily I got better w/o going to doc but I learned my lesson! Scared the crap out of me!


Have you people ever heard of a vampire pump?, they can be sterilized! i plan to pick one up when needed, they make some pretty affordable options too, check into it


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## Pubfiction (Feb 3, 2013)

I may have missed it, but how I always started a siphon was just fill the whole thing up with water, usually the tank water. Cap the out end with my thumb, then bring it down to the bucket and let go with my thumb. No mouth required at all. If you have a small reservoir you can just hold the hose like a U and fill it up at the sink. 

Worst siphon I ever used was those shake ones. Utter garbage, while they can start a siphon the mechanism also slows it down so its painfully long to get anything done.


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

frogface said:


> I found something for us, arkay. Only 5 bucks! Much better than a mouth full of frog poo water.
> 
> Custom® Siphon Pump (36668) - Funnels, Pans & Syphons - Ace Hardware


Frogface, and Eric...you mind guys mind if I post that in the vivarium tech finds thread? ...I'll give you all credit of course 

P.S. I've manually siphoned tanks before too... amazed I didn't get sick, or hell maybe I am and don't even know it


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

Have at it dave


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## Eric Walker (Aug 22, 2009)

Napa auto also carries something similar I use


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## fishfreak2009 (Sep 23, 2011)

Ed said:


> Giardia is also carried by raccoons,beavers and a number of other mammals.. so basically you have a risk giardia from any unsanitized water that is in contact with wildlife....it doesn't have to be humans.
> 
> There are a lot of different bacteria that can inhabit the enclosure and be suspended in the water that can make you sick.. for example Listeria, Shigella ssp, Staphylococcus sp, Streptococcus sp, Proteus ssp.... If you have a good population of cyanobacteria in the enclosure, you could also have cyanobacterial poisoning..
> 
> ...


Two years ago I started a siphon by mouth on my saltwater tank. The tank was going through a cyanobacteria bloom. I got incredibly sick for over a week. Actually had to go to the urgent care. Never again will I do something so stupid.


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## Dev30ils (May 1, 2012)

Aqueon and some other aquarium supply companies make siphons that hook up to your faucet in order to start the siphon process. Slightly more expensive than the manual ones but could be worth it for those of you who do a lot of water changing.

For example


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed: It seems difficult to measure the risk of different reptile/amphibian pets and different activities. For example. children going to a zoo and touching outreach animals. I have done a few of the programs myself and I always clean the animals well beforehand(soap, water, and then rubbing alcohol), and make sure kids use alcohol based hand sanitizer immediately afterward. 

In keeping tanks keepers are exposed to salmonella by cleaning them(especially if cage tools/cages make it into a common sink which is not recommended), handling animals and their food, vapors, any residual contamination if animal is allowed out or escapes...

Poor husbandry(which is sadly the norm) probably increases risk in various ways. 

But we also happily bring raw poultry and meat into our homes(contamination rates of which are quite high)...which seems to be just as bad as a reptile. I think if reptile supplies ought to be kept out of the kitchen sink then what about a chicken carcass? I don't see the difference here. And while it is recommended that households with infants not keep reptiles(as well as young poultry), the same is not said that households with infants go vegetarian for a year.

I'm going to say that dart frogs are probably one of the lowest risk pets in regards to contamination due to the amount of cleaning that needs to be done(namely-almost none). I haven't found the need to siphon my vivs(I just reduce misting). Other than that and escaped insects from the tanks their are very few routes of contamination that frogs present.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Most institutions conduce surveillance for animals that are actively passing salmonella and those animals are typically pulled from being outreach animals until either the animal stops shedding or it is surplused to another program. A large portion of that was due to the outbreak of salmonella in Denver zoo.... 
With respect to Zoos see for example (An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie). So we can't really compare zoo outreach animals with chicken... 

One of the issues is that many of the serotypes isolated from herps are actually much more virulent than those generally isolated from people who aquired it via food sources. See for example An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 

It should also be noted that fruit flies are an effective source of transmission particularly if they can access food or drinks. See the source below for a discussion on fruit. 
anisicwicz, W. J., W. S. Conway, M. W. Brown, G. M.
Sapers, P. Frantamico and R. L. Buchanan. (1999).
Fate of Escherichia coli 0157:H7 on fresh cut
apples tissue and its potential for transmission by
fruit flies. Environ. Microbial., 65: 1-5.

Now if we compare the prevalence of salmonella detected in meats (See Prevalence of Campylobacter spp., Escherichia coli, and Salmonella Serovars in Retail Chicken, Turkey, Pork, and Beef from the Greater Washington, D.C., Area) which is much much smaller than the predicted number of herps that are infected (can reach more than 90% see for example http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/v...hibian carried salmonella serotype virulence"). So in reality the risk is significantly greater when people have herps in their home as opposed to preparing and cooking chicken in the kitchen. The reason it seems much more risky with the chicken is because so many more people are working with chicken than they are with herps or both chicken and herps. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

fishfreak2009 said:


> Two years ago I started a siphon by mouth on my saltwater tank. The tank was going through a cyanobacteria bloom. I got incredibly sick for over a week. Actually had to go to the urgent care. Never again will I do something so stupid.


Even inhalation of small water droplets from upset cyanobacteria can cause some significant symptoms. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,

Your first and second article are identical-would be interested in the second as I have seen that point brought up.

What are your thoughts on the continued use of reptiles as outreach animals? And the widespread keeping of them as pets?

I'm sure many herpers here have reared families and had reptiles. On most other forums those who bring up this topic are poo-pooed...so it is nice to see it receive some scholarly review.

It is interesting as at the same time as we are becoming more aware of zoonotic disease and other things, we are also trying to figure out how to keep children exposed to nature.(or at least "nature" in the form of zoo/domestic animals)

The book 'Last Child in the Woods' has a picture of a kid holding a frog...I'm sure the CDC likes that. I do wonder if the kid cleaned up afterward, and if I'd be considered paranoid for suggesting that. I as well as all of you I'm sure have handled tons of filthy animals without cleaning up when younger, and in certain work situations(biological consulting) it is pretty much unavoidable.


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## Jeremy M (Oct 19, 2012)

sheesh, yall are making me think twice about drinking from my freshwater aquarium...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Your first and second article are identical-would be interested in the second as I have seen that point brought up.


Sorry, my fault, I'm studying for a final and wasn't as careful as I normally try to be.... 
Here is a better example of how zoos try to manage it. 
Isolation of Salmonella enterica and Shiga-Toxigenic Escherichia coli O157 from Feces of Animals in Public Contact Areas of United States Zoological Parks 

And I'm having trouble relocating the one article that broke down the virulence but this one has a good picture of it as well 
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1297-9716-42-34.pdf 



Dendrobait said:


> What are your thoughts on the continued use of reptiles as outreach animals? And the widespread keeping of them as pets?


I'm all for their continued use... For example my wife and I host the local 4-H herp club and the kids do get to handle herps. The difference here is that we limited the club age to 6 and up and we enforce good sanitation, (no herps around necks, on shoulders etc) as these both reduce the risks. 
In general, the attitude of legal opinions is that we are unlikely to see further legislation to reduce contact but instead increased liability is what will push a reduction in these activities. 



Dendrobait said:


> I'm sure many herpers here have reared families and had reptiles. On most other forums those who bring up this topic are poo-pooed...so it is nice to see it receive some scholarly review.


There is a surprisingly robust body of literature on the risk of reptile associated-salmonellosis including further studies published within the last decade. This topic should never be downplayed as all it would take to push a lot of harm to the herp hobby is several sensational news breaks to drive up the uninformed public hysteria. You can be sure that several animal rights groups would push that issue hard via lobbying. 



Dendrobait said:


> It is interesting as at the same time as we are becoming more aware of zoonotic disease and other things, we are also trying to figure out how to keep children exposed to nature.(or at least "nature" in the form of zoo/domestic animals)


It's well documented that engagement is a direct result of exposure to animals so it's an important issue. However one should always look to minimize the risks that are likely to cause harm. One of the things I do right now is keep the frogs in a room on the opposite end of the house from the kitchen so it really reduces the risk of fruit flies carrying salmonella. I've also tightened up the tanks to reduce or prevent invertebrate escapees.



Dendrobait said:


> The book 'Last Child in the Woods' has a picture of a kid holding a frog...I'm sure the CDC likes that. I do wonder if the kid cleaned up afterward, and if I'd be considered paranoid for suggesting that. I as well as all of you I'm sure have handled tons of filthy animals without cleaning up when younger, and in certain work situations(biological consulting) it is pretty much unavoidable.


Yes I've handled a lot of dirty animals and have worked in some conditions that were conducive to transmission (ASPCA, really old pet stores, reptile house) and always took care to limit my risks of exposure. That is the point where too many people make the mistake... cleaning herp related issues in the kitchen sink, or bathtub... and then failing to properly disinfect everything including the splash zone. People often forget that these pathogens can survive for a considerable periods of time outside of the cages/animals...for example one study was able to isolate viable salmonella from a reptile fecal that was 30 days old. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Ed,
I'm pretty clumsy with the multiquote, so hopefully this is easy to follow.

Final? What is that? Aren't you a bit at the point beyond such things as finals? haha

Excellent articles! Nice to have diagnostics available to pull animals like that(and presumably place them at non AZA institutions or something). Of course, with reptiles you gave to live with the fact that they are all shedding salmonella. 
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
A look at what people handling reptiles would potentially be exposed to.
I wonder what the risk level is for clean captive animals who have not recently crawled through fecal material-particularly if they are given some sort of washing before the outreach event. I would suspect the smooth surface and lack of frequent bowel movements would make this a more useful method of risk mitigation than with, say, outreach mammals/birds.


On sensational news articles-their already are many. So far as I can tell no fatalities associated with reptile associated salmonellosis have been publicized widely. A lot of reptile keepers(especially with the increased media coverage of fatalities associated with large constrictors) are VERY sensitive to any notion that reptiles are a riskier pet than any other the idea being partly that dog and cat keepers can lambast reptile keepers on their dangerous and disgusting pets and continue to share beds and kisses with their animals. 

But I do think it is also inappropriate to be lulled into a false sense that the zoonotic potential of all pets are equal. 

I think it is difficult to quantify the risk especially of repeat exposure to lower risk pets. As mentioned in the paper-lots of factors such as diet come into play.

With reptiles I think a lot of people are lulled into a false sense of security due to thoughts of dryness killing bacteria and since reptiles can appear to be more hygienic than larger domestic animals.

That is an excellent point on control of animals during outreach as well as the age group cutoff. Note first incident here.

Reptile-Associated Salmonellosis --- Selected States, 1998--2002


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendrobait said:


> Ed,
> I'm pretty clumsy with the multiquote, so hopefully this is easy to follow.


It's easier than most people think.. simply hit quote and when the option pops up, highlight and copy the the entire link including the two brackets. Paste this at the beginning of the section you want to seperate out. At the end of the quote from the other person, type "[/quote]" and then write your answer. 



Dendrobait said:


> Final? What is that? Aren't you a bit at the point beyond such things as finals? haha


There is always more to learn... And something you'll never hear me say is that I don't need any further knowledge... 




Dendrobait said:


> A look at what people handling reptiles would potentially be exposed to.
> I wonder what the risk level is for clean captive animals who have not recently crawled through fecal material-particularly if they are given some sort of washing before the outreach event.


The washing event is the key point here as salmonella can persist in the average environment for at least two weeks. If you get most of it off of them and then place them in a clean carrier (I disinfect my coolers with three different disinfectents (wescodyne (for ameobas), ammonia (for cryptosporidia), and bleach (for most other pathogens like viruses)) between visits for the herp club. 



Dendrobait said:


> can lambast reptile keepers on their dangerous and disgusting pets and continue to share beds and kisses with their animals.


That is actually a good thing to hear. It's those behaviors that put people at the most risk. 



Dendrobait said:


> I think it is difficult to quantify the risk especially of repeat exposure to lower risk pets. As mentioned in the paper-lots of factors such as diet come into play.


Things like raw diets really bump up the chance that your dog or cat would be carrying salmonella. Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets

Bacteriological evaluation of commercial canine and feline raw diets

Prevalence of Salmonella in Raw Meat used in Diets of Racing Greyhounds


Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,

Just out of curiosity, what species are you using for the 4H club?

Also, do the kids get husbandry experience? If so, what procedures are in place to minimize zoonotic transmission risk? (gloves?)

A huge general problem with outdoor ed. boy scout, and other youth clubs is the rising cost of liability insurance in response to the increased costs you mentioned. I'm not sure what is the best solution to the problem. Part of this is increased diagnostic power that enables things to be figured out-it is no longer a mystery stomach flu that sickens folk(or worse) but we can now trace it to the exact food processor(or pet owner) who can then be held liable-and rightly but scarily so. 

Will it get too costly for organizations to allow structured time for kids to climb trees and handle snakes? The solution now is to keep them indoors on computers where they are the "safest" and "healthiest"...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

We use a variety of animals ranging from leopard geckos to ball pythons to some of the dart frogs and yes we do go over husbandry issues with each type of animal. At the last meeting I brought in silk moth larvae and the kids who had lizards that would eat them got to take them home and try them on their lizards. 
We enforce no eating/drinking in the room (except for drinking for me as otherwise I would have issues from some medicine side effects), and require handwashing and the use of hand sanitizers during the program. 
After the meeting the tables are wiped down to make sure. 
We encourage the parents to participate as well and we are clear each meeting on the risks of zoonotics. One of the parents is actually a nurse and she has several different herps at home.. 

As you have noted, it is possible that these programs will be eliminated due to liability risks but we are doing what little we can to help stem the time. 
This has actually had a "term" coined for it. It's called "nature deficit disorder" and you can pull up articles on google scholar but this is where most of that phrase started NRDC: OnEarth Magazine, Summer 2005 - Reviews 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Hello Ed,

Yes, I've read Richard Louv's book...it is an excellent read.

Another neat one I read recently is 'The Wildlife of our Bodies' which among other ideas the author pokes with a stick is the hygiene hypothesis. I wonder if anyone has done research on snake charmers or other groups who traditionally work heavily with/eat reptiles. Usually emphasis is on snakebite but zoonotic transmission could be an issue as well.


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