# mixing of species



## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

I recently posted some questions on the board in the parts section and have become the target of the firing squad. Apparently the mixing of species isn't tolerated. But I have been mixing species of herps for a long time.(well about 8 years) i understand that it isn't recomended but i have had nothing but success. My current mix is this; 2 rhampholeon bravicaudatus( 1 male, 1 female), 3 painted mantella, and a peacock day gecko(he's a male if it makes any difference). All are in a 25 long aquarium and have been there for at least 7 months. Today i finished my 70 gallon up and I am waiting for a cobalt tinc that will join the others later when he is larger. 
What i am wondering is if anyone has really tried and also had success and enjoyed the variety. and what i can't comprehend is that why everyone just dismisses the fact and calls me neglegent to not


Ryan said:


> Spend the extra effort to care for them and put htem in their own enclosure.


 To me it seems like there is minimal stress because nothing had died and all are very bold when exploring the environment. I myself think that all my animals remain active because of the cagemates and are provoked to interact. I pay close attention to all my herps and moniter them and seperate if i see a problem, but so far all my herps are great eaters( i feed everyday) and my male mantella is calling alot.
what i am hoping to recieve is good news on this and not a verbal bashing. if you cant say something nice............................... then shut up.
Well i thought i would post this message on the advanced board because i would assume that some of you might have experience in this area and could maybe see my point of view.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Oh boy here we go


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

You've already gotten the news that you'll keep getting.

You must enjoy pain though.

s


k2bordr03 said:


> ... what i am hoping to recieve is good news on this and not a verbal bashing. if you cant say something nice............................... then shut up.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2004)

In the past I have mixed several things, but not to the extent you have. I have seen Phelsuma eating E. tricolor sub-adults-- so that's one I don't like; except in things like P. klemmeri. I know people have also mixed P. laticauda (though that was the one who ate my friend's E. tricolor), P. guimbeaui, and some of the other high humidity Phelsuma. I've never mixed chameleons, nor would I ever in that small of a tank. 

As far as stress goes, I like Ed K's description that was posted on frognet some time back (which we discussed on a drive later on). I think if you cut back on half of the animals in the mix, it would be more productive. I loosely advocate mixing, but on more strict guidelines. 
j


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

If you are not interested in breeding any of the darts that you are mixing and can provide a large enough enclosure (large enough is of course subjective) you can probably keep the inhabitants alive and possibly even "happy". Just keep a very close eye for signs of stress like always cowering in the same corner, constantly climbing the walls, not coming out to feed, etc. Just keep in mind that even a 90 gallon tank is tiny compared to your backyard, which is tiny compared to an acre of rainforest.


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## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

*thanks*

im glad that someone on this board actually can agree with me to some extent. but a word of wisdom: chameleons stress really easy and i lost my gravid female today  . my diagnosis of the situation is that i put her in the new tank to fast and now i must face the pain of losing my female. as for the rest of the cage my mantellas are loving it and the gecko just cant stay off those glass walls. my poor male chameleon will have no mate but oh well. one is enough to worry about in 70 gallons of a tropical haven.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

You lost that Cham because it got stressed out from the others in the tank!


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

> You lost that Cham because it got stressed out from the others in the tank!


Agreed


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2004)

> You lost that Cham because it got stressed out from the others in the tank!


spot on. chams are extremely solitary animals, apart from pigmy and rudis which can tolerate another of the opposite sex. 



> my diagnosis of the situation is that i put her in the new tank to fast and now i must face the pain of losing my female


thats an extremely stupid diagnosis. laughable. chameleons should *NEVER* be kept in a glass tank of any kind. the reflection given by the glass will give the chameleon the impression that there is another chameleon on its territory, thus stressing it out. chameleons hide any signs of illness untill its too late generally. also, the main factor... ventilation, chameleons need at LEAST 3/4 of the viv screened as they are prone to upper respiritory infection, keeping them in such a humid environment like darts require will also lead to respiritory infection. 
i hope you take into concideration the death of your female chameleon before even thinking of owning another one. it really isnt fair on the animals what your putting them through.
the only side i can see to mixing species is purely a selfish side unless its for research obviously. the animals dont get anything out of it. they may tolerate eachother but no real good can come from it. 




> what i am hoping to recieve is good news on this and not a verbal bashing


do you honestly think thats what you will receive when you blatantly disregard the animals well being and advice of others?

i could post so much more but i have better things to do than shout at the idiocy of incapable keepers.

shame on you


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2004)

Dont u guys think ure a little harsh. Let k2bordr03 learn forom his mistake and give him some KIND advice after all that is what the board is for, but relax. 8)


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

arena said:


> > You lost that Cham because it got stressed out from the others in the tank!
> 
> 
> spot on. chams are extremely solitary animals, apart from pigmy and rudis which can tolerate another of the opposite sex.


Umm, he said in another post he had pygmy chams. I agree that housing them in a glass tank is inappropriate for chameleons, from what I know about them. I've never kept one and am not familiar with pygmies.

And I also agree that stress was probably a factor in the cham's death, since all the animals were housed in a 20 gallon long previously.

But let's not string him up and gut him like a fish.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2004)

some very reputable breeders of pygmys recommend they be kept in terrariums.....glass terrariums


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Yes with screen lids though. They need alot of ventalation compared to darts.


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## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

This is a reply for you Arena.
first thing: next time you post try to do a little research before posting your own "idiocy"
second thing: i am not some kid who just hap hazardly throws a bunch of animals in a tank. i look for specific species and suit the individuals needs.
third: i am doing my own research on the interactions of all my herps. watching the interactions between the species and gathering information on all of them.
fourth: I dont need yours, or anybody elses, approval of my actions, nor do i need the "ima knowitall" speech.
if you are a herpetologist or veternarian you can post what you opinion is.
i have close contacts with both where i live and both have told me that my research was fine and with what i was trying to do and should be able to learn alot from each individual.
as for your comment on not owning another chameleon, i still have my male. he is a great eater and is healthier than when i got him. my diagnosis of the death of my female was not exact because i didn't know you were such an expert. i had my local herpetologist look at it and it had actually died because of the cage change. the females are more sensitive to transition. she went from a 25 gal to a 70 gal. so next time you decide to attack another person on this board why dont you just stop while you are ahead.


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2004)

> first thing: next time you post try to do a little research before posting your own "idiocy"


please quote my "idiocy" and lack of knowledge in my first post.



> second thing: i am not some kid who just hap hazardly throws a bunch of animals in a tank. i look for specific species and suit the individuals needs.


i see a contradiction there, what you HAVE done is hazardly thrown a bunch of animals in a tank. hence the chams death.



> third: i am doing my own research on the interactions of all my herps. watching the interactions between the species and gathering information on all of them.


when i said for research, i was aimin toward official projects,books etc. not some guy that doesnt seem to comprehend what he is doing to the animals.



> fourth: I dont need yours, or anybody elses, approval of my actions, nor do i need the "ima knowitall" speech.


correct you dont need anyones approval, but by such a large disapproval of what your doing, doesnt it make you think; "maybe i shouldnt be doing this"? you may not like the "ima knowitall" speech, but it could well save their lives or make them happier.



> i had my local herpetologist look at it and it had actually died because of the cage change. the females are more sensitive to transition.


that really is HIGHLY unlikely, the cham may take a day or two to adjust to its new surroundings but that wouldnt be the one and only factor to its death. theres going to be more to it and you need to find out for the health and safety of your male.

im not going to reply to any posts from now on as some people will never learn. :roll:


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

I'm gonna have to agree with arena. Let's look at the facts.

Mantellas: Ideal Temp: 68-70F Humidity: 70%-80% Country of Origin: Madagascar.

Bearded Pygmy Chameleon: Ideal Temp: 65-80F Humidity: 80%-90% Country of Origin: Tanzania Attitude: Territorial

Peacock Day Gecko: Ideal Temp: 80-85F w/ spotlight of 90F for basking. Humidity: 65%-85% Country of Origin: Madagascar Attitude: Territorial

Cobalt Tinc: Ideal Temp: 75-80F Humidity: 80%-100% Country of Origin: Surinam or Brazil depending on morph, lets just say South American rainforest.

First, most of these animals would never see each other in the wild. Even though the gecko and the mantellas are both from Madagascar, the gecko is arboreal and the mantellas are terrestrial. I could see, from a research point of view, how you could want to see how these 2 species might interact, but the other animals would never interact in the wild at all.

Another point is the temperature. The day gecko needs an ambient temperature that's too hot for the mantellas and the cobalt tinc, and the spotlight is way too hot for any of the animals.

Let's say you keep the humidity at 85%. That would be fine for the day gecko, the tinc, and probably the chameleon, but that's just too high for the mantellas. So then let's say you lower the humidity to 80%, that's fine for the day gecko and the chameleon, but that's the high limit for the mantellas, and that's the low limit for the cobalt tinc.

Another issue for me would be how territorial the animals are. I have read that peacock day geckos can be territorial, and so can bearded pygmy chameleons. You said you've housed them together before so I guess it's not a problem for you, I just wouldn't want to take the risk. The "What If" factor is just too scary for me. What would happen if one day your day gecko and your male chameleon faced off? I would guess that the larger, faster day gecko would dominate the smaller, slower chameleon. Just something to think about.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

arena said:


> > ..... chameleons should *NEVER* be kept in a glass tank of any kind. the reflection given by the glass will give the chameleon the impression that there is another chameleon on its territory, thus stressing it out. chameleons hide any signs of illness untill its too late generally. also, the main factor... ventilation, chameleons need at LEAST 3/4 of the viv screened as they are prone to upper respiritory infection, keeping them in such a humid environment like darts require will also lead to respiritory infection.



Arena....
Have you ever bred chameleons? I have, I have bred Chameleo calyptratus (veileds) as well as Furcifer pardalis (panthers) and I have kept them in glass enclosures with screen fronts. Ventilation is the issue rather than reflection generally. A longtime friend of mine has bred C. calyptratus and F. pardalis for around 6 years now... and guess what.... he uses glass tanks. He has extremely productive females, and his males are excellent breeders as well. The only problem that we have encountered using glass tanks is that ONE male chameleon out of our combined collections of C. calyptratus ( around 20 adults) was aggravated by his reflection. He was still a great breeder while he was housed in glass nonetheless, though he (and only he) was moved to a screen tank. I keep my veileds in screen tanks now only because I can move them outside in the summer. 
I agree that screen is BETTER than glass with regards to housing some species of chameleons, but I don't buy into this glass=abuse mentality. I think that somewhere along the line, somebody suggested that screen is better than glass, and then people in places like kingsnake blew it way out of proportion until it became "divine law." 
I do agree that the death of the chameleon in question is *likely* due to improper housing (the "community" tank). As for the "diagnosis" of "she was put in her tank to fast"... I find this well..... silly. 
Now that the owner of the tank wants to add some dendrobatids to the tank... this brings a new issue into the mix. I doubt that frog will last more than 6 months in there. The issue is essentially "new world syndrome." When you mix wild animals from entirely different contintents, well.... we all know here (most of us anyway) what the consequences will be. Can anybody tell me why entire populations of native north americans died when the europeans came to the americas (aside from genocide and assimilation)? European diseases which they had zero immunity to. I fear that this is precisely what will happen to the little dart frog that will be introduced into the "big happy community" of wild animals from Madagascar. Without a doubt, this frog will wither away in a few months time.
People hear what they want to hear, and will do what they want to do. People will come up with silly excuses to cover their own negligence. The only thing you can do is offer assistance, and if they don't want to listen it will be their loss, but unfortunately a frog will have to suffer by it.

Double J


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

*time...*

We also must consider how we define "successfully" and "a long time."
To me, seven months is only a short time to have a mixed tank running, and is not a long enough window to ordain the setup as successful.


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

Bill, Kyle or Someone,

Please remove or move this post from here, as it has turned from a credible mixing species debate to a bash of a member by another . It reminds me too much of kingsnake and why I stopped posting there.

Dany


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

Danny,

This is actually a good discussion, sans the bashing. The next hint of bashing we see will most likely result in the banning of certain members though.

-Bill J.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

I whole hartidly agree with Greenstar, educated arguments are okay but bashing and throwing around bull is by no means helpfull. 
So administrators please do something about this. This has migrated into atleast 4 threads starting with k2bordr03 bi#$*&^% about people not agreeing with him and slamming him, yes the impuning of poples ablities isn't neccesary but if he is just going to go and make a new thread about the same thing and have the whole cycle start again then maybe he shouldnt post here because no one is making him.


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## Guest (Jul 27, 2004)

I agree fully with Bill. Additionally, please keep this post HERE. If I see any more new threads about Pygmy Chameleons giving Painted Mantellas piggy back rides, its going to be deleted.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

*posts....*

Are you guys refering to me at all? I thought I was fairly behaved. If I have crossed over any lines, I apologize.


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## Greenstar (Feb 28, 2004)

as far as I am concerned DJ you have not overstepped your bounds, though I am not an admin :twisted:


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

> Have you ever bred chameleons? I have, I have bred Chameleo calyptratus (veileds) as well as Furcifer pardalis (panthers) and I have kept them in glass enclosures with screen fronts. Ventilation is the issue rather than reflection generally. A longtime friend of mine has bred C. calyptratus and F. pardalis for around 6 years now... and guess what.... he uses glass tanks. He has extremely productive females, and his males are excellent breeders as well. The only problem that we have encountered using glass tanks is that ONE male chameleon out of our combined collections of C. calyptratus ( around 20 adults) was aggravated by his reflection. He was still a great breeder while he was housed in glass nonetheless, though he (and only he) was moved to a screen tank. I keep my veileds in screen tanks now only because I can move them outside in the summer.


Depends on the size of the tank, and im guessing with colonys like that he has very small tanks. You wont get a Simeze fighting fish to go nuts at its reflection in the tank walls in anything less than a 80G tank. Just because your freind does it, doesn't mean its right.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2004)

What??? Small tanks?

How did you come up with that? Glass can be reflective regardless of the size of the tank. For the record, my veileds are housed in 50 gallon cages. 
Though I personally use screen out of the convenience it offers, I will never buy into this glass=abuse mentality. I think it is absolutely ridiculous. Is glass *better* than screen? Absolutely not. Screen can be a superior alternative provided it is used *properly*. I have seen a number of poorly built screen cages made with aluminum screening, and the animals are continously poked with the frayed screen edges. Is screen then *always* better than glass? Clearly not in this case. If every chameleon was as seriously stressed out as you imply they would be, why has his entire colony not dropped dead yet? What about the stress colors? Why are they not showing them? Here is my hypothesis. Some keepers house their chameleons in glass..... Due to poor husbandry, poor supplementation, poor lighting or poor feeding, or even a b-grade animal... their animal dies. Then they go to a *chameleon forum* laden with "experts" .. tell their tale, and the so called gurus immediately hop on the glass tank as the culprit. 

Simply put, I think glass is often blamed for simple poor husbandry. 


Let's get back to our colorful little Dendrobatid friends.


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## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

this is kinda funny. you guys are changing the subject like every other post. just wanted to point out how funny i think this post has become


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2004)

With a discussion like this one, alot of us are glad to change the subject. You bring up ridiculous topics, you can exxpect ridiculous responses. 

-Bill J.


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## *GREASER* (Apr 11, 2004)

Topics/Questions like there arent cut and dry. There are alot off different things that could be discussed at great length. One of the greatest things abotu this hobby is that its always growing and the information amatures and profesionals are gathering is getting larger everyday. And each and every frogger no matter how big or small that takes the time to observe his or her frogs and keep tabs on there developent and he development of there habitat can really offer alot to the community.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2004)

I agree with Greaser and would like to add to this thread.
I think that we are almost all in agreement that hybrid frogs should not be sold. I do not believe that most mixed species Darts (hybrids)could propagate so this should not be a huge point ( this being the offspring from two different dart species. Some even have different numbers of chromosomes).
What I would like to add is that controled, educated, experimentation is essential to the betterment/foreward movement of this hobby. I know of a few mixed species tanks that are working very nicely. Arboreals with ground dwellers work well at times. The thought of having such a tank must be in the back of quite a few frogger's minds. 
Good luck to those trying such vivs.

Rich


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Rich are you working with D. quinquevittatus


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2004)

Jacob,
Please contact me through our site. Thanks.

Rich


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Sorry, but I had to jump on this topic. I know it is late but, WHAT KIND OF RESEARCH COULD YOU POSSIBLY BE DOING BY KEEPING ANIMALS THAT WILL NEVER HAVE NATURAL CONTACT TOGETHER PROVE???? This would have to be the stupidest thing I have heard of. I just can't comprehendwhat you are trying to prove. Each one of these species has its own individual needs. Come on man, mantella's alone are too rare and precious to threaten like this. If you provide heat for the other species, the mantella will surely suffer. Even if you have a m. baroni, The temps to support the gecko would be too much. I am sorry for being rude, I just can't imagine what you are trying to prove, or "research" as you call it. This just won't happen. If you want to do research, do it to each species in INDIVIDUAL setups. And, I would definitely say your poor chameleon succumbed to stress. Moving a GRAVID chameleon is not a very brillian thing to do. SHe is already super vulnerable as it is. Why don't you document that in your research, gosh all mighty. This is why when I get selling critters, I am going to make sure my customers aren't going to do something silly and foolish. And sure your critters might be eating, and calling, but, that doesn't truly mean they are happy. Especially for a baroni. I better stop, this just upsets me that someone would purposely torment their poor critters. If anything, DIVIDE the cage, and make sure each critter has it's OWN specific habitat. and 7 months is not a very long time at all. ok, I am done for now, sorry too anyone else I may have offended. But I do definitely agree with Lucidblue's previous post. Everyone else, good luck. And hey, k2, if you want, I will adopt that poor mantella from you. I hate to see such rarities go to waste. See you all later

ED :x


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

not to be argumentative, but how do you figure mantellas a rare??? Places like reptile depot sell about 100 of them grouped together in plastic show boxes at shows for $14. If mantellas as a whole were "rare" you would think they would be sold in seperate deli cups like the darts they sell. 

I keep a breeding trio of rhapholeon spectrum and I would say the genus rhampholeon and brookesia NEED to be housed in glass terrrariums. Also, rhampholeons display sometimes, but rarely get in physical fights, they are unlike other chameleons in many ways.

I actually asked a similiar question in a thread just below this one, so once everyone is through throwing around their weight, i'll be interested to hear the actual opinions of people on the board (minus the harshness.)

Dustin


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

*Mantella's are VERY rare*

Dude, I highly recommend you study up on the precarious position of wild mantella's. Why do you think it is very much impossible to get MOST species of mantella's these days. There are a few that are not quite thought of as endangered yet, such as betsileo, baroni, and expectata. That is because they inhabitat large ranges. Others such as m. viridis inhabit areas that may not even be larger than a foot ball field. It does depend on which type of mantella, but WILD mantella's in general are becoming very endangered. The only reason you see so many in the pet trade is because of the lack of control in madagascar. I do believe they are FINALLY doing something about it though. I would just ask you to see if you can find any wild caught aurantiaca's being imported, good luck. Anyway, I would study up on it before I asked silly questions if I were you. Soon, don't worry, WC mantella's will not be available

Ed


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

xjokerx said:

"not to be argumentative, but how do you figure mantellas a rare??? Places like reptile depot sell about 100 of them grouped together in plastic show boxes at shows for $14. If mantellas as a whole were "rare" you would think they would be sold in seperate deli cups like the darts they sell."
End quote

Joker....

I have to disagree with you completely on this subject.

Lets face it....

Mantella populations are being raped and pillaged by collecting, not to mention deforestation. 
Simply because you see 100 mantellas in a rubbermaid at the table of dealer X, does not mean that there is an unending supply of these animals in Madagascar. In 5-10 years, maybe sooner, I am sure that mantellas will be incredibly rare in the hobby, and the price will rise considerably. I am certain that wild populations viable for collection will be nearly exhausted in the next decade if this collecting and deforestation continues at this rate. 
Simply because these animals are inexpensive and abundant, we should not treat them like feeder guppies and goldfish. 
How many people with mantellas are actually breeding them these days? And how many are tossing them in a tank with other things for novelty value?
Does anybody remember when wild histos and atelopus were under 50 dollars? Where are all of these frogs now?

Double J


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

*mantellaprince
I agree that they are rare in the wild, I would never say that they weren't. But RIGHT NOW they are commonly offered as wc's. If you read between the lines, it was implied they were common in the hobby, as of right now. You know mantellaprince, in every post ive heard from you, you come off rather brash, I'd be curious to see if you were this bold in person...

double J
as mentioned above I was not commenting on the wild status of mantella or thier future, just basically the 2 or 3 species availible right now. I also wasn't implying that they should be treated as goldfish, I would agree with you on that one. Furthermore, I actually think it would fascinating to mix (very) small numbers of mantellas and darts in a HUGE tank, and I think it could be done w/ the right preporations. If i did follow through with such an experiment, it would be for keeps, and the animals would not be "testers". But thats just me, im certainly not asking you to agree, but I find your's and other's opinion important. So thanks for the input.

Dustin


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

I just don't see the purpose of mixing frog species, even if they are from relatively similar habitats. I mean, these species would never see each other in the wild. This type of research is ridiculous because any point you prove will have no natural credability. Any hypothesis that you have is pointless because, no matter the conclusion, it will not prove anything about either species because they would never interact in the wild. If you want to do symbiotic relationship experiments, do it with species that actually interact with each other in their natural environment. To put two different species together, in whatever size tank, just because you think it would be interesting seems rather selfish to me. Of course, this is just my opinion.


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

[No message]


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

it wouldn't be to prove anthing....

with that logic, wouldn't keeping frogs in general be considered selfish?


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## Guest (Sep 12, 2004)

lucidblue, one other thing.....

lol where did 'symbiotic relationship' come from????? To my knowledge, neither frog has symbiotic relationships with any other organisms (exept broms). Do you know the definition of the word?


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

xjokerx said:


> Furthermore, I actually think it would fascinating to mix (very) small numbers of mantellas and darts in a HUGE tank, and I think it could be done w/ the right preporations. If i did follow through with such an experiment, it would be for keeps, and the animals would not be "testers". But thats just me, im certainly not asking you to agree, but I find your's and other's opinion important. So thanks for the input.
> 
> Dustin


When you use the word "experiment" you lead me to believe that there would be a desired point (hypothesis) to prove.

Obviously you missed my point. Mixing species such as mantellas and dart frogs can only be done purely for aesthitic value. It is therefore selfish on the owners part because by doing so the owner neglects the well being of the frogs in order to have an eye-pleasing display. To my understanding, the goal of this hobby is to provide the animals the same type of environment that they would inhabit in the wild so that they may flourish in captivity. 

Now, you could say that keeping dart frogs or mantellas is selfish altogether, but you could say that about keeping any kind of exotic pet in captivity. You could say that keeping and breeding rhinocerous iguanas is selfish, but when dedicated hobbyists produce offspring this helps the overall population. Take the American alligator for example. They were nearly extinct, but thanks to the restriction of hunting, zoos, and alligator farms they have bounced back quit well. I know it's hard to look to the future and imagine that certain species of dart frogs or mantellas might be severely close to extinction, but with deforestation and the gradual decline in their habitats, this could happen. And if it does happen I would hope that zoos and dedicated hobbyists would do all they could to help replenish the populations.


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

xjokerx said:


> lucidblue, one other thing.....
> 
> lol where did 'symbiotic relationship' come from????? To my knowledge, neither frog has symbiotic relationships with any other organisms (exept broms). Do you know the definition of the word?


That's kind of the point, there's no benefit to either species, so why risk it?

No need to be rude. You're the one who wanted to mix different species to see how they would coexist.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

sorry if it came off as rude, I was actually kidding and trying to prove a point. I do not think keeping darts is selfish, I was again trying to play by your logic. 

read my post again...the key point to the project that would make it successful was to only introduce healthy animals (as well as any other variable I might think up.) therefore, no risk to either species :wink:. But your right, there would be no benefit per say to either species (no harm either) but aesthetics is not the word. More like variety. 

Also, this was already discussed. If it came to the point were officials were banging on hobbyist's doors asking for frogs to replenish the world, it was in general agreement that no one would be giving up their frogs for this purpose.


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## Lucidblue (Jul 23, 2004)

With the reproductive rates of these frogs, I personally would hope that some hobbyists would come forward and donate some of their froglets to respective zoos. I guess it's an optimistic view.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

I believe that the "door banging" you were refereing to Dustin, was a topic in which I added . I was never expecting nor wishing for the general public to offer up their frogs to be reintroduced to the wild. As I stated in that thread, I wanted to throw a little philosophy and "what if" into a discusion in which a frogger or two found no real reason for keeping track of bloodlines. I would also say that in the next decade or so you may very well see a transplant or reintroduction. I do not wish this upon the "hobby", but it is not exactly as far fetched as some would think.
I would like to say again that I see no problem keeping ground dwelling Darts, such as P. terribilis, with arborials, such as D. intermedius. ect. No chance of interbreeding, makes for a nice view. Info is key, be it bloodlines or temps or humidity, know your animals , keep them true.

Rich


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

xjokerx said:


> Also, this was already discussed. If it came to the point were officials were banging on hobbyist's doors asking for frogs to replenish the world, it was in general agreement that no one would be giving up their frogs for this purpose.


This would never happen. There are so many pathogens floating around, that these frogs would contaminate ones in the wild and they would die off even quicker. I do know that for some species of tree frogs, people breed them down there in their natural habitat and release once stable. Keeping frogs in captivity is for the owner's enjoyment. I suppose their is assurance, that if the species somehow went extinct in the wild, they'd still be represented in captivity.


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

I think most people find it acceptable to keep arboreal thumbs w/ large ground dwelling darts (correct me if i'm wrong), but the question is do you find mantellas w/ darts acceptable?

Also, I found your blatent photo shop doctoring hilarious, bravo!

Dustin


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

> Keeping frogs in captivity is for the owner's enjoyment.


Thank you Derek, keeping frogs _is_ for our enjoyment, or aesthetics if you will. therefore, if neither gets hurt in the process, is keeping mantellas and darts together not the same...for our enjoyment? Just a thought.

Dustin


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Dustin,

I would disagree with you that most people find it acceptable to keep thumbs with ground dwelling darts. I think the opposite is true. 

Unexplained deaths in tanks such as these do occur. 

I also don't agree with mixing darts & mantellas.

My question is why? What is the reason people (not zoos, but individuals) would want mix? A cool tank? An experiment? etc...

Overall, I think putting the frogs into this situation in the first place is something most experienced frogers choose not to do. 

Melis



xjokerx said:


> I think most people find it acceptable to keep arboreal thumbs w/ large ground dwelling darts (correct me if i'm wrong), but the question is do you find mantellas w/ darts acceptable?
> 
> Also, I found your blatent photo shop doctoring hilarious, bravo!
> 
> Dustin


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

Dustin, 
Oh, you got that joke? It is good to see that some of us still have senses of humor.

I have no problem with others keeping animals of different species together as long as all of the animals needs are seen to. 

I would also add that the only tanks that we mix species in are our "show" tanks. Ones that are in our living rooms that we watch , all the time, to make sure that unexplained deaths are kept to a minimum (zero to this date). It can work, watch your frogs.

Rich


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

*Dr. Frye
the name's Dustin...


*Melissa
Well I _did_ say correct me if im wrong. I personally am more into species tanks myself for the better breeding potential, but I still argue for this theoretical dart/mantella tank. the coexistence and breeding of the two in a large enclosure would be a sight to behold, and bring great color and variety to such a tank. The tank would be originally setup for the enjoyment of it, and in a way would be an experiment of sorts to test to see how you would set it up so that it would work. 

I agree that many experienced froggers keep their species seperate-most experienced froggers also breed their frogs so this would make sense.

I hope this answers your questions melissa.

Dustin


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

Sorry Dustin got that mixed up.
My brother is the doctor.

Rich


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## Derek Benson (Feb 19, 2004)

The ReturnOfJ105 said:


> I have no problem with others keeping animals of different species together as long as all of the animals needs are seen to.
> 
> I would also add that the only tanks that we mix species in are our "show" tanks. Ones that are in our living rooms that we watch , all the time, to make sure that unexplained deaths are kept to a minimum (zero to this date). It can work, watch your frogs.
> 
> Rich


Examples, please


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

I think that I cited one already but here goes:

P. terribilis w/ D. intermedius
D. azureus w/ D. imitator
D. tintorius Powder Blues w/ D. ventrimaculatus

As long as ALL of the species NEEDS are seen to.
Rich


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## froglady (Feb 21, 2004)

Sorry about that, Sarah didn't log out from the computer.... this is Melissa using her account. 

Bad me.... :shock: 

Melis


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

I too think those combos would be fine living together, but whats your opinion on breeding potential in such a setup?

Dustin


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

If the frogs are all happy, what do you think the potential would be? This is not however our main goal in these tanks.

Rich


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

Rich sorry about the mix up, I knew you weren't the Doc.

Well, I think they would breed, but w/ less frequency. And of course these tanks aren't for that purpose. I actually wanted to hear from people who have done this kind of setup.

Dustin


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## Guest (Sep 13, 2004)

Derek,




> This would never happen. There are so many pathogens floating around that these frogs would contaminate ones in the wild


Exactly what pathogens do you think a CB has that a WC would not.

The realy cool thing is , if you know your frogs, and raise healthy frogs, you have nothing to worry about .

Rich


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## k2bordr03 (Jul 15, 2004)

first things first......
i thought this post was over with. guess not!? first I'd like to say this........
i have neither the p.quad or the cham in with my frogs. I lost 2 chams while in seperate setups due to complications during gestation.
(that was for you mantellaprince)
as for selfishness......... i must say that pulling an animal out of its natural habitat and putting it in a cage that is dwindled in size is pretty selfish. And this stays true for all exotic animals. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. but we as human desire to own things. things which we feel we can feel a sense of bonding with. this is why we own animals, cars, houses, children etc..... but to attack me after over 3 months thats qiute some time without looking at any of later posts. i mix, you dont. i mixed darts and mantellas and suited each of the needs. i have the right temp range for both and maintain a half and half setup.
furthermore i am "experimenting" now, not research as previously stated. i used the incorrect term. 
I will not allow hybrids and my frogs are for show. nothing more, nothing less. i am not interested in breeding mix's or selling. If i am lucky i will be able to breed my 2 azuereus. but only time will tell if I have a male and female. as far as crosses and hybrids, I ll destroy the eggs. Plain and simple.
As far as "happinness" level of the animals................ how can you tell if the animals are "unhappy". Do you speak frog?  (that was a joke for all the offended)
as far as i'm concerned i havent seen a single flaw and my frogs have coexisted quite happily( i do speak frog) :lol: Let me rephrase... ive seen no signs of stress on either the darts or the mantellas. they are all growing day by day and I can reflect and say i see no problem with my setup.
thats it folks and this isnt posted to bash. only to clear up a few things for future posters who come in 3 months later to bash and not read other posts.


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