# Sticky  Supplementation -- reasons and recommendations



## Socratic Monologue

*Supplementing insect feeders for frogs*

_Why supplement? _​
Most captive insectivores, such as dart frogs, are fed insects that are raised either commercially or by the keeper. Supplementing these prey items is both necessary and misunderstood; this article aims to explain both points, and to recommend research-based protocols and products for supplementation.

The recommendations here are intended only for dart frogs (though the needs of many insectivorous herptiles are quite similar, and so much here will be applicable to other taxa) that can be fed supplemented prey — so not, for example, new frog metamorphs that cannot or do not accept fruit flies. Frogs that are actively breeding may have different nutritional needs motivated by regular egg production; these needs are not addressed here.

_The importance of calcium_​
Keepers sometimes assume that calcium must be provided because insects do not contain enough calcium for frogs. This is only partially correct, and is a misleading understanding. Though many feeder insects are calcium deficient, all contain much more phosphorus than calcium, and this imbalance is what causes health problems.

When a captive animal’s diet contains too much phosphorus in relation to calcium, parathyroid hormone (PTH) is secreted to reestablish proper levels. PTH causes a removal of calcium, first from blood plasma, then from bone — ‘nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism’. (7) This removal of calcium leads to a failure of bones to properly form and eventually a degradation of existing bone — ‘metabolic bone disease’ (MBD).

Supplementing commercially produced feeder insects is necessary to correct the inverse calcium to phosphorus ratio of those insects (1,3,5), ideally targeting 1.5/1 Ca/P (9). Only certain calcium compounds are suitable for use as supplements, as the amount of elemental calcium delivered has to be sufficient to offset the amount of P in feeder insects. The Ca content of various possible calcium sources per gram of compound are (3):


Calcium carbonate: 400mg
citrate 211mg
lactate 130mg
gluconate 93mg
glubionate 66mg

Calcium carbonate is the standard for supplementation; calcium citrate can also yield acceptable results (3).

Failing to offer supplements at every feeding, often motivated by a hesitancy to “overdose”, is thus ill-advised. At least in regards to calcium, the overall dose is not so important as is offsetting the high levels of phosphorus.

_Vitamin D3 is necessary_​
Vitamin D3 is required for proper uptake of calcium, and so needs to be provided. Though at least some species of dart frogs can synthesize Vitamin D through UVB exposure, all species also use dietary D3 very effectively. The simplest, least expensive and least potentially harmful way to provide Vitamin D3 to dart frogs is through supplementation. The risk of overdosing Vitamin D through supplementation is less than many keepers assume; though the daily requirements of amphibians are not well known, for most animals the presumed safe dose is 4 - 10 times the minimum requirement (3). Thus, an acceptable supplement product will contain Vitamin D3.

_Preformed vitamin A is necessary_​
Vitamin A is also deficient in commercial feeder insects (2) Hypovitaminosis A is common in dart frogs, and is a cause of short tongue syndrome (STS) and pathologies of the eyes and reproductive organs (2), and general lack of immune response that can predispose the frog to infectious disease (3).

There is a misconception among keepers of many species of amphibians and reptiles that preformed Vitamin A (retinol A) is an overdose danger and should be replaced in the diet by previtamin A (carotenoids). This belief stems from a decades-old misinterpretation of chelonian respiratory issues as Vitamin A deficiency (most cases were due to Mycoplasmosis) that was treated by aggressive Vitamin A therapy (often via injection) (3). This practice led to widespread hypervitaminosis A, which in turn spurred a false assumption that preformed A is dangerous.

In fact, hypervitaminosis A is uncommon in captive herptiles, and the few cases that occur are typically due to the use of injectable A or the excessive feeding of mammalian liver (3).

Providing Vitamin A in the form of carotenoids was a response to the mistaken overdose worry. Some animals — herbivores and omnivores, primarily (8) — can convert carotenes to Vitamin A, and for these animals carotenoids may be a good source of Vitamin A. There is substantial evidence, though, that frogs cannot metabolize previtamin A (carotenoids) to Vitamin A (2, 3, 9). Providing frogs only carotenoids as a Vitamin A source is documented to lead to conjunctival (eye) lesions (3) and anecdotally the practice leads to death of the frogs, likely through inability to catch prey (12). Therefore, retinol A (performed Vitamin A) should be provided as a Vitamin A source. Carotenes have other benefits for frogs, though, and can be included in the diet in modest amounts (11).

_B complex Vitamins are (probably) necessary_​
The B complex vitamins play a role in frog health, as well. Nerve issues, scoliosis, and spindly leg syndrome (SLS) have been associated with Vitamin B deficiency (9). Though feeder insects are not typically deficient in the B vitamins (4), an ideal supplement might include B vitamins.

_How often to supplement_​
Supplementation protocols are thus best thought of as primarily correcting deficiencies in the food source, rather than providing vitamins and minerals to the frogs (about which vitamin and mineral intake needs are not well established (3, 4)). This is especially the case for calcium, which offsets the excess amount of phosphorus in feeder insects. Also, the vitamin content levels of every currently available all-in-one supplements are designed to meet the target animals’ needs when applied to all prey items offered. As such, every prey item should be supplemented at every feeding.

_Which supplements are useful?_​
A satisfactory supplement dust must:


rectify the Ca/P ratio of insects
contain adequate Vitamin D3 for Ca metabolism
contain Vitamin A as retinol (preformed Vitamin A)
contain a wide range of other vitamins including E and the B complex
optionally contain other dietary supplements for which benefits have been established (e.g. carotenoids)
There are scores of supplements available, and nearly all of them are not suitable for dart frogs. Supplements most commonly marketed to frog keepers include:


ZooMed Reptivite with D3






ReptiVite™ with D3 | Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc.







zoomed.com





Though this supplement meets all the other needs of frogs, since its primary ingredient is calcium phosphate it does not rectify the Ca/P ratio of feeder insects and is *not *suitable for use with dart frogs


Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-all and Vit - all 









Miner-All Indoor (2 Cans)


Order the only human-grade calcium mineral supplement for optimum health of reptiles and amphibians, snakes, lizards, frogs, toads, newts, and more. Shop Here!




www.stickytonguefarms.com












Vit-All (2 Cans)


Feeder prey supplement Essential amino acids and vitamins Scientifically formulated Guaranteed fresh Includes two 4-ounce cans (8 oz total) DESCRIPTION After years of herpetologists and breeders raving about how well Miner-all works, the demand for a comparable vitamin formula to use with it has...




www.stickytonguefarms.com





These two products are designed to be used together by gutloading prey with Vit - All, and dusting same prey with Miner - All. Beyond the tedious procedure recommended, the Sticky Tongue Farms supplements do not contain preformed Vitamin A and are *not* suitable for use with dart frogs. Additionally, Miner-all has been tested for D3 content and found to exceed the label claims by over three times; manufacturing consistency is suspect. (13)


Flukers Reptile Vitamin









Reptile Vitamin


Reptile Vitamin is an essential vitamin for any reptile to have good health.




flukerfarms.com





The main calcium source in Fluker’s Reptile Vitamin is calcium phosphate, and for this reason is not suitable for use with dart frogs.


RepCal Herptivite and Calcium with D3 



Rep-Cal Supplements



These are two separate supplements that are designed to be mixed immediately before use. Aside from the disadvantage of the tedious premixing procedure (necessary since RepCal does not use microencapsulated vitamins), RepCal products do not contain preformed Vitamin A and are *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.


Birkhahn A-Vital









Birkhahn A-Vital Vitamin Powder, 12,95 €


Dendrobates,Phelsuma,frogs,lizards Science has known for a long time the necessity of vitamins, protein building blocks (amino acids), minerals and trace elements for the living organism ?These essential building blocks are needed for cell and skelet




www.dendroshop.de





I could find no direct manufacturer information on Birkhahn A-Vital. The first five ingredients (translated from German by Google) according to a retailer’s listings/product label are:

Stärke = starch (a filler)
Tricalciumphosphat = Calcium phosphate
Gelatine = gelatine
Mannit = mannitol (a sugar substitute with poor intestinal absorption; probably used here as a filler or flavor enhancer) Mannitol - Wikipedia
Tricalciumcitrat = calcium citrate

Though Birkhahn A-Vital contains all the major and minor vitamins of importance (though with a very elevated Vitamin A level, it is worth noting), it uses only unsuitable calcium sources (a common feature of many “legacy” supplements; Birkhahn A-Vital was formulated in the early 1990s) . Calcium phosphate cannot correct Ca/P ratios of insects because of its phosphate level, nor can calcium citrate as it contains insufficient amounts of Ca (3). For this reason, Birkhahn A-Vital is is *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.


Ranarium Cal Bee + D3 
Cal-Bee + D3 | Ranarium

Though Cal Bee + D3 does contain a useful form of Ca (calcium carbonate) and Vitamin D3 neceesary for uptake of that Ca, it contains no further vitamins such as Vitamin A or E. It does contain a large amount (20%) of bee pollen. Bee pollen is a source of B-complex vitamins (though a highly variable source Dried bee pollen: B complex vitamins, physicochemical and botanical composition) (Chemical composition and botanical evaluation of dried bee pollen pellets)

I could find no studies whatsoever on the effects or value of bee pollen in amphibian diets.

Cal Bee + D3 is *not *a complete supplement for dart frogs, and contains an ingredient of questionable utility.


Repashy Supervite






Products by Size :: 3 oz Jar :: SuperVite 3 oz JAR - Repashy Ventures - Specialty Pet Products


Supervite Micro-Fine Vitamin Supplement Our Micro Fine Vitamin Supplement powder Contains both Preformed Vitamin A and Beta Carotene INFORMATION SuperVite is the same Vitamin formula that has been the backbone of the SuperFoods line of complete diets and supplements INGREDIENTS Cellulose




www.store.repashy.com





Despite being superficially similar to Repashy Calcium Plus (evaluated below) and bearing a label claim that "This product can be used as a stand-alone supplement", Repashy Supervite does not contain a sufficient calcium level to be used as a stand alone supplement (14). Repashy Supervite is *not *a complete supplement for dart frogs.


Various liquid ‘Calcium spray’ products (e.g. Fluker’s, Zilla)

Calcium spray products contain insufficient levels of calcium because they use unsuitable calcium sources (for example, calcium gluconate in Zilla’s product) or are simply mostly water (Fluker’s contains 6% calcium, compared to Repashy Calcium Plus 17%), and do not contain Vitamin D3, so Ca will not be absorbed by the animal. No spray products provide all the vitamins and minerals needed in a complete supplement. Calcium spray products are *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.


Ranarium Rana-Vit









Rana-Vit | Ranarium


Nutritional needs of amphibians are closely related with husbandry needs, stages of development and unforeseen stress. Common examples of stress are previous overcrowding, shipping, improperly maintained enclosures. Proper supplementation is crucial. Rana Vit is a complete multivitamin...




www.ranarium.com





Rana-Vit contains a useful form of Ca, as well as Vitamin D3 and retinol. The inclusion of bee pollen is likely intended as a source of B Vitamins; as mentioned, this is a highly variable source. Rana Vit includes a small amount (0.6%) of Maca root, a human food source that is sometimes used as a libido and sexual performance stimulant. I could find no studies whatsoever on the effects or value of Maca root in amphibian diets.

Aside from the mentioned ingredients of questionable value, Rana Vit *is suitable for use with dart frogs*.


Dendrocare






Dendrocare | Products | Dendrocare


Jar of Dendrocare 50, 100 and 500 grams for sale vitamin and minerals for frogs and dendrobates



www.dendrocare.com





Dendrocare contains a suitable source of calcium, and all the major and minor vitamins needed for dart frog health. It does not contain any carotenoids, though some keepers may choose to supplement carotenoids separately. * Dendrocare is suitable for use with dart frogs.*


Repashy Calcium Plus






Products by Size :: 3 oz Jar :: Calcium Plus 3 oz (85g) JAR - Repashy Ventures - Specialty Pet Products


Calcium Plus VITAMIN AND CALCIUM SUPPLEMENT Our “All-in-One” Calcium Supplement with added Vitamins Trace Minerals and Carotenoids for Dusting Insects No need for a Separate Vitamin Supplement DIRECTIONS Use with every insect feeding Best applied by placing insects in a plastic bag or




www.store.repashy.com





Repashy Calcium Plus is the current gold standard for dart frog supplements. It includes the proper form of calcium, all the major and minor vitamins, preformed Vitamin A and a range of carotenoids. *Repashy Calcium Plus is suitable for use with dart frogs,* and should be the first choice for an all in one supplement.


_How to dust with supplement_​
Dusting feeders with supplement is simple. Place a small amount of the supplement dust in a cup or plastic bag. Add the feeder insects and swirl (if a cup) or hold shut and shake (if a bag) until all the insects are fully coated with supplement. Pour off the insects and offer to the frogs; discard the excess dust that remains in the cup or bag.

Though supplement dust adheres to insects for a handful of hours — at least five (10) — too many insects in the enclosure can be stressful to frogs. Feeding only as many as will be consumed by the end of the day is advisable. Remember that every insect offered should be dusted at every feeding.


_An aside on gutloading_​
Some keepers attempt to “gutload” feeder insects as a substitute for dusting. To be a substitute for dusting, gutloading must:



rectify the Ca/P ratio of insects
contain adequate Vitamin D3 for Ca metabolism
contain Vitamin A as retinol (preformed Vitamin A)
contain a wide range of other vitamins including E and the B complex
optionally contain other dietary supplements for which benefits have been established (e.g. carotenoids)

_What to use as a gutload_​
Over time, the common conception of ‘gutloading’ has lost its original meaning and come to mean simply offering food to insects before feeding them to the target animal (3). This practice does not accomplish any of the five supplementation goals listed above.

Contrary to much internet misinformation, very few diets are suitable for use as a gutload. No moist diets tested improved the calcium content of insects (5). Calcium enriched water crystals do not improve the calcium content of insects (4). Fresh fruits and vegetables do not contain sufficient calcium, nor usable Vitamin A, nor Vitamin D3 and so are not suitable as gutload diets; in fact offering moist foods along with a proper gutload diet actually reduces the effectiveness of the gutload procedure (1), as the digestive tract of the insects must fill only with calcium rich dry food for gutloading to be effective.

Research has shown that gutload diets with irregular particle size (0.5mm - 3mm) do not improve the calcium content of insects regardless of the calcium content of the diet (6). It is unlikely that homemade from scratch diets would meet the homogeneity requirements of an effective gutload diet, regardless of their vitamin and mineral content.

Furthermore, very few commercial products sold as gutload diets actually work, both due to poor manufacturing standards (particle size) as well as significant content deviations from labeled guarantees. In a test of five such products (Timberline Cricket Power Food, Fluker’s High Calcium Cricket Feed, ESU Reptile Gutload, JurassiDiet Gutload, and T-Rex Calcium Plus Food For Crickets) only one (T-Rex) improved the vitamin and mineral profile of feeder insects sufficiently (6).

Even using a suitable product, gutloading is only effective if the proper diet is fed to feeder insects for 48 hours before offering the prey (1). Clearly, gutloading is not at all a straightforward substitute for dusting, and is in almost every case unknowingly used improperly, and thus ineffectively.

_Summary_​

All feeder insects offered to frogs need to be supplemented at every feeding.
Only Repashy Calcium Plus or Dendrocare are fully effective supplements dusts.
Gutloading is a very difficult, and almost always ineffective, substitute for dusting.




_References, and for further study_​
1) Allen and Oftedal, 1989, “Dietary Manipulation of the Calcium Content of Feed Crickets” Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine, 20 (1). (PDF) Dietary Manipulation of the Calcium Content of Feed Crickets

2) Clugston and Blainer, 2014 “Vitamin A (Retinoid) Metabolism and Actions: What We Know and What We Need to Know About Amphibians” Zoo Biology, 33(6). Vitamin A (Retinoid) Metabolism and Actions: What We Know and What We Need to Know About Amphibians

3) Divers and Stahl, eds. Mader’s Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery, 3rd. ed. 2019 Mader's Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery | ScienceDirect

4) Ferrie, et al. 2015. “Nutrition and Health in Amphibian Husbandry” Nutrition and Health in Amphibian Husbandry

5) Finke, et al, 2004, “Evaluation of Various Calcium-fortified High Moisture Commercial Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus” Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery. https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm.../Evaluation-of-Various-Calcium-fortified-High

6) Finke, et al, 2005, “Evaluation of Four Dry Commercial Gut Loading Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus” Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery (2005) 15 (1) https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm...Evaluation-of-Four-Dry-Commercial-Gut-Loading

7) Frye, F. 2007 “The importance of calcium in relation to phosphorus, especially in folivorous reptiles” The importance of calcium in relation to phosphorus, especially in folivorous reptiles | Proceedings of the Nutrition Society | Cambridge Core

8) Green, A. 2016. Meeting the Vitamin A Requirement: The Efficacy and Importance of β-Carotene in Animal Species. Meeting the Vitamin A Requirement: The Efficacy and Importance of β-Carotene in Animal Species - PubMed

9) McWilliams, 2008. "Nutrition Recommendations for some Captive Amphibian Species (Anura and Caudata) “ https://www.caza-narg.ca/ref/amphibian nutrition report CAZA 2008.pdf


10) Michaels, et al, 2014. "Manipulation of the calcium content of insectivore diets through supplementary dusting" , Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research, 2 (3) usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/36715/1/Manipulation%20of%20calcium%20content%20of%20feeder%20insects.pdf

11) Dugas, et al, 2013. "Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive Success in Captive
Strawberry Poison Frogs (Oophaga Pumilio)" (PDF) Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive Success in Captive Strawberry Poison Frogs (Oophaga Pumilio)

12) 10 year old frogs legs collapsing

13) Oonincx, et al, 2020. "The nocturnal leopard gecko (Eublepharis macularius) uses UVb radiation for vitamin D3 synthesis"
Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part B: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Volume 250, December 2020. The nocturnal leopard gecko (Eublepharis macularius) uses UVb radiation for vitamin D3 synthesis

14) Repashy Supervite question










​


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## fishingguy12345

This is wonderful, thank you for this. Would it be possible for you to do an analysis of the ranarium brand of supplements and include in the treatise post above? 

Cal-Bee + D3 | Ranarium

Rana-Vit | Ranarium


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## Philsuma

please review 
*BIRKHAHN A-Vital 75 Gram (supplement for amphibians & reptiles)*


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## Chris S

It may also be useful to talk about additional supplementation of Vitamin A.


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## Socratic Monologue

Chris S said:


> It may also be useful to talk about additional supplementation of Vitamin A.


Thanks for the suggestion. I had a disclaimer in an earlier draft that I wasn't going to go into breeding -- my intent here was for this to instruct newer keepers who needed a science-based antidote to misinformation and common-sense assumptions --- that seems to have fallen away at some point. I've added it back in. 

Vitamin A and breeding needs to be another article. It takes too many hours to do something like this, and I need a little rest.


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## Chris S

I think I was more referring to how it isn't necessarily needed, unless breeding or deficiencies are noticed. Either way, good article


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## Socratic Monologue

fishingguy12345 said:


> This is wonderful, thank you for this. Would it be possible for you to do an analysis of the ranarium brand of supplements and include in the treatise post above?
> 
> Cal-Bee + D3 | Ranarium
> 
> Rana-Vit | Ranarium





Philsuma said:


> please review
> BIRKHAHN A-Vital 75 Gram (supplement for amphibians & reptiles)


Putting this here for now, and I'll integrate it into the first post shortly.

******

Birkhahn A-Vital 








Birkhahn A-Vital Vitamin Powder, 12,95 €


Dendrobates,Phelsuma,frogs,lizards Science has known for a long time the necessity of vitamins, protein building blocks (amino acids), minerals and trace elements for the living organism ?These essential building blocks are needed for cell and skelet




www.dendroshop.de





I could find no direct manufacturer information on Birkhahn A-Vital. The first five ingredients (translated from German by Google) according to a retailer’s listings/product label are:

Stärke = starch (a filler)
Tricalciumphosphat = Calcium phosphate
Gelatine = gelatine 
Mannit = mannitol (a sugar substitute with poor intestinal absorption; probably used here as a filler or flavor enhancer) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannitol
Tricalciumcitrat = calcium citrate

Though Birkhahn A-Vital contains all the major and minor vitamins of importance (though with a very elevated Vitamin A level, it is worth noting), it uses only unsuitable calcium sources (a common feature of many “legacy” supplements; Birkhahn A-Vital was formulated in the early 1990s) . Calcium phosphate cannot correct Ca/P ratios of insects because of its phosphate level, nor can calcium citrate as it contains insufficient amounts of Ca (3). For this reason, Birkhahn A-Vital is is *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.



Ranarium Cal Bee + D3 
Cal-Bee + D3 | Ranarium 

Though Cal Bee + D3 does contain a useful form of Ca (calcium carbonate) and Vitamin D3 neceesary for uptake of that Ca, it contains no further vitamins such as Vitamin A or E. It does contain a large amount (20%) of bee pollen. Bee pollen is a source of B-complex vitamins (though a highly variable source Dried bee pollen: B complex vitamins, physicochemical and botanical composition) (Chemical composition and botanical evaluation of dried bee pollen pellets)

I could find no studies whatsoever on the effects or value of bee pollen in amphibian diets.

Cal Bee + D3 is *not *a complete supplement for dart frogs, and contains an ingredient of questionable utility.

Ranarium Rana-Vit








Rana-Vit | Ranarium


Nutritional needs of amphibians are closely related with husbandry needs, stages of development and unforeseen stress. Common examples of stress are previous overcrowding, shipping, improperly maintained enclosures. Proper supplementation is crucial. Rana Vit is a complete multivitamin...




www.ranarium.com





Rana-Vit contains a useful form of Ca, as well as Vitamin D3 and retinol. The inclusion of bee pollen is likely intended as a source of B Vitamins; as mentioned, this is a highly variable source. Rana Vit includes a small amount (0.6%) of Maca root, a human food source that is sometimes used as a libido and sexual performance stimulant. I could find no studies whatsoever on the effects or value of Maca root in amphibian diets.

Aside from the mentioned ingredients of questionable value, Rana Vit is is suitable for use with dart frogs.


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## Socratic Monologue

OK, added to the main post, and I improved the formatting there.

As a kind of aside, in researching this I bumped into older threads with discussions of supplement R&D from @Allen Repashy . I suspect that some of the "me too" supplements (all the 1990's era CaPO4 based ones, for example) were formulated without any formula improvements, lab testing of ingredients, or vetting of manufacturing processes like Repashy did. 

Since my recommendations above were intentionally pretty strictly science-based, these sorts of considerations aren't going to be part of that post -- but personally I think they're very relevant.


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## npaull

Serious work, SM. Thanks. Great stuff.

I still throw Miner-All into my rotation for trace minerals here and there.


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## DendroJoris

Very good read, thank you! I think supplements is one of the most important reasons that we can keep dart frogs successfully.


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## Socratic Monologue

npaull said:


> I still throw Miner-All into my rotation for trace minerals here and there.


Yes, I agree that there's certainly room for educated, goal-driven rotation protocols by keepers who've thought through the possible benefits and possible risks and who have a solid baseline understanding of their frogs' health status and know how to recognize if that status changes. 

I'd warn other readers of this against the "rotate supplements to make sure your frogs aren't missing anything" recommendations by people who are in the business of selling you supplements, or people who just crawled out of a time machine from 1985 and haven't caught up with the current state of product quality and formulations.


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## Johanovich

With regard to the benefits of carotenoids, I can provide more references and more evidence for their health benefits (and vit A activity across different types of carotenoids). I'm in the process of moving house so don't have much time at the moment. But when I have a bit of spare time I'll post them here to be included.


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## Socratic Monologue

I'd love any info you have, but that would be included in some other write up. This one is intended for basic supplementation information and is directed toward novice keepers who may have absorbed misinformation.

Another writeup concerning supplementation for breeding, and for other needs that are over and above basic frog preventative health (e.g. carotenoids, UVB, avoidance of SLS, treatments for STS, MBD, seizures, etc) would certainly be valuable, and I'd be happy to collect information on it.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep

Info on UVB and frogs would be much appreciated. Very confusing that stuff UVB is...


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## Johanovich

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Info on UVB and frogs would be much appreciated. Very confusing that stuff UVB is...


I also have some good references about this topic. I'll make sure to provide those as well.

@socratic: would you prefer that I post them here or send them in a message to you?


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## Socratic Monologue

Eh, post them here. This thread is going to get messy anyway, and then everyone can take a look into them.


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## Socratic Monologue

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> Info on UVB and frogs would be much appreciated. Very confusing that stuff UVB is...


For now I think it is safest to say that there are no known captive species of frogs for which UVB is established by either research or common anecdotal cases to be necessary for a healthy captive life, and no known captive species of frog that cannot use dietary D3 supplementation exclusively for a healthy captive life.


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## Dr. Manhattan

Socratic,

Is it still ok to gut load my crickets (sorry no dart frogs, but I keep mossy frogs, turtles, crested gecko, flying gecko, and a Cuban False Chameleon in separate enclosures) with a hearty mix of different kinds of fish flakes, oatmeal, and orange slices for hydration before dusting them with Repashy Calcium Plus ?


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## Socratic Monologue

What you describe there isn't gutloading -- it is feeding. It is fine to feed crickets; in fact, they'll die without eating. 

I hold my crickets exactly the same way, actually. I use organic oat bran instead of oatmeal (same thing, basically), but they seem to do well with that and some fish flakes. I think orange slices the very best hydration method for crickets and roaches, judged in terms of cricket lifespan and reproductive rate of roaches.

To repeat, though, none of this is gutloading.


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## Dr. Manhattan

Socratic Monologue said:


> What you describe there isn't gutloading -- it is feeding. It is fine to feed crickets; in fact, they'll die without eating.
> 
> I hold my crickets exactly the same way, actually. I use organic oat bran instead of oatmeal (same thing, basically), but they seem to do well with that and some fish flakes. I think orange slices the very best hydration method for crickets and roaches, judged in terms of cricket lifespan and reproductive rate of roaches.
> 
> To repeat, though, none of this is gutloading.



Agreed, feeding not gut loading. I'll make the switch to organic oat bran. I've seen Repashy Bug Burger but I've never tried it. I wonder if anyone on here has used it ? Once again I would dust my crickets every feeding time as I do now.


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## fishingguy12345

Dr. Manhattan said:


> Agreed, feeding not gut loading. I'll make the switch to organic oat bran. I've seen Repashy Bug Burger but I've never tried it. I wonder if anyone on here has used it ? Once again I would dust my crickets every feeding time as I do now.


I use Repashy Bug Burger for my Isopods. They love it. Don't see why crickets wouldn't eat it.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep

Dr. Manhattan said:


> Agreed, feeding not gut loading. I'll make the switch to organic oat bran. I've seen Repashy Bug Burger but I've never tried it. I wonder if anyone on here has used it ? Once again I would dust my crickets every feeding time as I do now.


I use the flukers cricket meal, mixed in a 1/8 ratio with C+, this is sorta gutloading but I only do it cause dust tends to wash off the crickets in my mossyfrog tank. What I do is just my attempt at ensuring at least some C+ is ingested with feeding.


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## John J M

Nice job. It must have taken you a lot of work to put all that together. Much appreciated the effort involved. Thanks!

I hate to be picky but in reference 11 there were 3 authors and Dugas was first author, not Yeager.


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## Socratic Monologue

Thanks. Yes, it did. I got a lot out of working through all the info, though -- writing is a good way to get one's thoughts straight.

I appreciate the correction -- it isn't picky at all. I was, admittedly, sloppy on the references formatting. Fixed the one mentioned.


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## cjwhitsett

Thank you for putting this together. It sounds like I may need to rethink my supplementation routine as I’ve been using Birkhahn every feeding + Ranarium carotenoids once every two weeks (and mixed into ff media because I have plenty and figure it can’t hurt). I think the carotenoids usage is fine as-is, but based on the info above, it looks like I should be concerned that my frogs may not be receiving the correct proportion of Calcium and Phosphate. I shied away from Repashy only because of remarks that it falls off ffs pretty quick - maybe not the best when keeping Ranitomeya that don’t greet you at the door come feeding time. I’ve seen the research about acceptable levels of supplement being present on feeders up to 24 hrs later, but still… finer powder just seemed like the better option regardless, all else being, for all practical purposes, equal (or so I thought).

I am a very new keeper and haven’t noticed any health problems with this routine over the past ~3-4 months but I have no basis for comparison, so maybe I’m missing something? I did a considerable amount of reading before deciding to use Birkhahn, because it isn’t as well-known in the US hobby. Commentary from other keepers who have used it is very positive from what I’ve seen, but maybe there is some confirmation bias at play with regards to what info stuck out to me.

Do you think I’ve harmed my darts by using this over the last four months? I have imitators and variabilis that I acquired at ~4 months oow which are now 8-9 mos oow.


----------



## Chris S

fishingguy12345 said:


> I use Repashy Bug Burger for my Isopods. They love it. Don't see why crickets wouldn't eat it.


I use this exclusively, as a powder, to feed crickets.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

cjwhitsett said:


> Do you think I’ve harmed my darts by using this over the last four months?


I have no real info on this. If it were me, I'd just switch to Repashy Calcium Plus and not lose any sleep over it. 

Animals can go long periods of time under severely suboptimal conditions without showing overt signs of illness. There was a thread here lately about a keeper who used (IIRC) RepCal for some years; one frog died early, another only after a few years from the expected hypovitaminosis A, and another was apparently OK.

People are animals, too; as a familiar comparison, think about what we know about human nutrition and what is in fact the case about many people's diets and other health-relevant behaviors. Four years of junk food at college isn't likely to kill any college-age people, but a lifetime of it makes that lifetime shorter, statistically speaking, and less pleasant in some ways.

In part because of the lack of clarity (from issues like confirmation bias, as you mention) that real-world experience gives, I made a conscious decision to not include anecdotal claims (one way or the other) as supporting evidence in the main write up. Everything up there follows from controlled research and/or professionally documented findings (well, except the one DB thread I cited for illustration purposes ).


----------



## cjwhitsett

Thank you for your wonderful reply. I just ordered a bottle of Calcium Plus and will begin using that as my primary supplement as soon as it arrives.

FWIW, I checked out the info on the webpage for Birkhahn that you linked in your initial post. It lists a ~2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus (5,062 mg Ca to 2,504 mg P per 100g). This makes sense as calcium phosphate is ~38% calcium and 20% phosphorus by mass (there is also calcium citrate and other ingredients with phosphate, but it seems things basically balance out to a 2:1 Ca : P ratio). With that in mind, are we really sure calcium phosphate is unsuitable for use in supplements? Do you think I'm overlooking something?

I think it's fair to say calcium carbonate is probably a _better_ choice, but ultimately, I think whether calcium phosphate is suitable or not depends on how much calcium and phosphorus frogs receive from supplementation relative to the insects themselves during a typical feeding. I did manage to find a nutritional breakdown of D. Melonagaster and D. Hydei from a Russian publication related to aquaculture. No clue as to the credibility of this source, and I can't help but wonder how much effect the ff's diet has on these numbers, but the figure is here. Melonagaster have a roughly 0.25:1 Ca : P ratio and Hydei have a roughly 0.5:1 Ca: P ratio. Not as low as I was expecting, but like you said in your initial post: supplementation has to make up some ground in order to achieve an optimal Ca : P ratio overall.

Not trying to cast doubt on what you have shared, and it is absolutely not my intention to sound like a Birkhahn fanboy.


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## Socratic Monologue

cjwhitsett said:


> FWIW, I checked out the info on the webpage for Birkhahn that you linked in your initial post. It lists a ~2:1 ratio of calcium to phosphorus (5,062 mg Ca to 2,504 mg P per 100g). This makes sense as calcium phosphate is ~38% calcium and 20% phosphorus by mass (there is also calcium citrate and other ingredients with phosphate, but it seems things basically balance out to a 2:1 Ca : P ratio). With that in mind, are we really sure calcium phosphate is unsuitable for use in supplements? Do you think I'm overlooking something?


Great info, and questions.

From Mader's Amphibian and Reptile Medicine and Surgery (3rd ed) (reference #3 above): "Most insects have a 1:10 Ca: P ratio, therefore a supplement with a 2:1 Ca: P ratio (common with bonemeal products) will never achieve a positive Ca: P ratio until the mass of the supplement is greater than the mass of the insect" (page 206).

I personally am skeptical of specifically the last claim about dust mass vs insect mass, and this is sort of your point. Mader's lists mels as 0.303% Ca and 1.476% P by weight (different than the source you cite, but the principle is the same); the claim implies that the insect has a P content of something like the Ca content of a supplement (i.e. 38% of the FF). Given the numbers you and I have laid out here, someone with more math than I have could calculate exactly how much dust (as a percentage of FF total weight) would be needed to bring the dusted FF up to 1.5/1 Ca/P; that number would be substantially less than 100%, clearly. 

Whether that number (how much dust per unit of insect) is more or less than is actually sticking to a FF at the time it is eaten would be good to know, but in the absence of that information hedging one's bets by using a supplement that has more "wiggle room" in regards to Ca/P ratio is likely prudent; this may be a consideration that motivates the veterinary recommendations.

Hope this doesn't just muddy the waters further.


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## John J M

I just found this little gem for consideration. 


https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&catId=102919&id=8017945


Upshot on retinol is high D3 levels in the diet may negatively impact Vit A levels and since most of us do D3 supplimentation this could be a problem. Perhaps we need to consider whether Ca carbonate with added D3 is necessary at every dusting. Any thoughts?


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## Socratic Monologue

Yes, it is known that a supplement will ideally have Vitamins A, D and E in the ratio of 100 to 10 to 1 to avoid problems with competition for uptake. I didn't include this in the write up as I didn't take it to be a point of misinformation that needed correction -- though it is certainly relevant and important. Thanks for pointing it out. 

FWIW, that consideration makes Dendrocare (100 to 26.6 to 2.3) and RanaVit (100 to 24.5 to 2.4) unsuitable, though I don't have any info on how far from the ideal ratio is tolerable. Repashy Calcium Plus meets the 100 to 10 to 1 ratio.

Since we have a supplement available that avoids the competitive uptake problem (which, at least anecdotally, doesn't exist with these supplements since hypovitaminosis A is not reported more from Dendrocare than Repashy, AFAIK), I'd be very wary of mix and match dusting procedures to address the issue. Using no D3 at only every other feeding would require 2X dose (or less? will it get better absorbed?) of D3 at the D3 feeding (using a product that doesn't exist; there aren't any supplements that simply increase D3 over baseline), which would (probably? how much?) change uptake of A and E at that D3 feeding, necessitating use of a more concentrated (how much more?) A and E product that also doesn't exist. It would, at any rate, be a solution in search of a problem.


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## Johanovich

Took me a while to get back to this, but here are some (ok a lot) references about the influence of carotenoids on frog health, vitamin A etc.

First one is probably the most broad one, as it just compares carotenoid transformation in the liver and eye of humans to frogs and quail. They found that frogs and quail possess similar enzymes and therefore chances are high that they can convert carotenoids similar to humans.

_Khachik et al., 2002 “Transformations of Selected Carotenoids in Plasma, Liver, and Ocular Tissues of Humans and in Nonprimate Animal Models” Investigative Ophthalmology & Visual Science, November 2002, Vol. 43, No. 11_

Second one shows that tadpoles of at least two species can convert lutein and B-carotene into forms of vit A.

_Baruah & Goswami, 2012 “In vitro metabolism of carotenoids, ß carotene and lutein into retinoids in Amphibians” Journal of Ecobiotechnology 2012, 4(1): 46-50_

Then a bunch of references illustrating the positive effects of carotenoids on the endangered corroboree frog (including improved coloration, growth, escape performance and skin bacterial flora)

_Umbers et al., 2016 “Dietary carotenoids change the colour of Southern corroboree frogs” Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2016, 119, 436–444

McInerney, Silla and Byrne, 2019 “Effect of carotenoid class and dose on the larval growth and development of the critically endangered southern corroboree frog” Conserv Physiol 7(1): coz009; doi:10.1093/conphys/coz009.

Silla, McInerney and Byrne, 2016 “Dietary carotenoid supplementation improves the escape performance of the southern corroboree frog” Animal Behaviour 112 (2016) 213e220

Edwards et al., 2017 “Dietary Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances the Cutaneous Bacterial Communities of the Critically Endangered Southern Corroboree Frog (Pseudophryne corroboree)” Microb Ecol (2017) 73:435–444, DOI 10.1007/s00248-016-0853-2

Byrne & Silla, 2017 “Testing the effect of dietary carotenoids on larval survival, growth and development in the critically endangered southern corroboree frog” Zoo Biology. 2017;36:161–169

McInerney, Silla & Byrne, 2016 “The influence of carotenoid supplementation at different life-stages on the foraging performance of the Southern Corroboree frog (Pseudophryne corroboree): A test of the Silver Spoon and Environmental Matching Hypotheses” Behavioural Processes 125 (2016) 26–33_

And another reference about the Booroolong frog, showing that the effect of carotenoids is dose- and life stage dependant.

_Keogh et al., 2018 “Dose and life stage-dependent effects of dietary beta-carotene supplementation on the growth and development of the Booroolong frog” Conservation Physiology, Volume 6_

A reference providing evidence for (carotenoid based) coloration being linked with body condition and health status in amphibians, with animals with higher levels of glucose and protein concentration in the blood showing a darker yellow and orange colouration.

_Brenes-Soto, Dierenfeld & Janssens, 2017 “Colouration in amphibians as a reflection of nutritional status: The case of tree frogs in Costa Rica” PLoS ONE 12(8): e0182020._

A PhD thesis by Victoria Ogilvy, specifically about carotenoids in frogs and their effects on health, development and color. Overall this contains some real gems of information regarding amphibian nutrition, both for tadpoles and adult frogs.

_Ogilvy, 2011 “THE INFLUENCE OF CAROTENOIDS ON FITNESS RELATED TRAITS IN ANURANS: IMPLICATIONS FOR EX SITU CONSERVATION” Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Manchester_

A paper by Ogilvy about the effect of carotenoids on red-eye tree frog coloration. With some very striking photographs showing the effects of dietary supplementation.

_Ogilvy, Preziosi & Fidgett, 2012 “A brighter future for frogs? The influence of carotenoids on the health, development and reproductive success of the red-eye tree frog” Animal Conservation 15 (2012) 480–488_

A paper about the carotenoids found in Rhacophorous bipunctatus. This paper has a short but interesting section in the discussion regarding which carotenoids could be effective precursors for vitamin A in frogs (discussing Lutein, Cryptoxanthin and Astaxanthin).

_Baruah & Goswami, 2012 “Characterization of carotenoid pigments in amphibian, Rhacophorous bipunctatus” Journal of research in Biology, 2, 114-118._

Two papers about the effects of diertary carotenoids on tadpole immunity and growth.

_Szuroczki, Koprivnikar & Baker, 2016 “Dietary antioxidants enhance immunocompetence in larval amphibians” Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, Part A 201: 182–188

Szuroczki, Koprivnikar & Baker, 2019 “Effects of dietary antioxidants and environmental stressors on immune function and condition in Lithobates (Rana) sylvaticus” Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, Part A 229, 25–32_

A very interesting study where false tomato frogs were tested after being fed carotenoid enriched crickets. Main interesting results are the improved vitamin A status of the frogs (particularly when fed a mix of different carotenoids) and the coloration becoming more vivid. The photographs of the frogs really speak for themselves in this paper.

_Brenes‐Soto & Dierenfeld, “Effect of Dietary Carotenoids on Vitamin A Status and Skin Pigmentation in False Tomato Frogs (Dyscophus guineti)” Zoo Biology 33: 544–552_

A general review and guide to amphibian nutrition bundled into a master thesis, with some nice sections about carotenoids. A fair amount of the references mentioned above are also referenced here.

_Keulen, 2017 “NUTRITION OF CAPTIVE AMPHIBIANS” FACULTY OF VETERINARY MEDICINE, Ghent University_

Another paper illustrating the effects of carotenoids on amphibian (red-eye tree frog) skin bacterial flora, with animals being fed carotenoids rich diets supporting higher diversity in bacteria.

_Antwis et al., 2014 “Ex situ Diet Influences the Bacterial Community Associated with the Skin of Red-Eyed Tree Frogs (Agalychnis callidryas)” Plos One 9(1):e85563_

And finally a paper by Ogilvy again, showing that not all feeder insects are equal with regards to gut loading, storing and transferring carotenoids (and thus potentially also other nutrition) to frogs.

_Ogilvy, Fidgett & Preziosi, 2012 “Differences in Carotenoid Accumulation Among Three Feeder-Cricket Species: Implications for Carotenoid Delivery to Captive Insectivores” Zoo Biology 31 : 470–478_


----------



## Encyclia

Johanovich said:


> Took me a while to get back to this, but here are some (ok a lot) references about the influence of carotenoids on frog health, vitamin A etc.
> 
> First one is probably the most broad one, as it just compares carotenoid transformation in the liver and eye of humans to frogs and quail. They found that frogs and quail possess similar enzymes and therefore chances are high that they can convert carotenoids similar to humans.
> 
> _Khachik et al., 2002 “Transformations of Selected Carotenoids in Plasma, Liver, and Ocular Tissues of Humans and in Nonprimate Animal Models” Investigative Ophthalmology & Visual Science, November 2002, Vol. 43, No. 11_
> 
> Second one shows that tadpoles of at least two species can convert lutein and B-carotene into forms of vit A.
> 
> _Baruah & Goswami, 2012 “In vitro metabolism of carotenoids, ß carotene and lutein into retinoids in Amphibians” Journal of Ecobiotechnology 2012, 4(1): 46-50_
> 
> Then a bunch of references illustrating the positive effects of carotenoids on the endangered corroboree frog (including improved coloration, growth, escape performance and skin bacterial flora)
> 
> _Umbers et al., 2016 “Dietary carotenoids change the colour of Southern corroboree frogs” Biological Journal of the Linnean Society, 2016, 119, 436–444
> 
> McInerney, Silla and Byrne, 2019 “Effect of carotenoid class and dose on the larval growth and development of the critically endangered southern corroboree frog” Conserv Physiol 7(1): coz009; doi:10.1093/conphys/coz009.
> 
> Silla, McInerney and Byrne, 2016 “Dietary carotenoid supplementation improves the escape performance of the southern corroboree frog” Animal Behaviour 112 (2016) 213e220
> 
> Edwards et al., 2017 “Dietary Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances the Cutaneous Bacterial Communities of the Critically Endangered Southern Corroboree Frog (Pseudophryne corroboree)” Microb Ecol (2017) 73:435–444, DOI 10.1007/s00248-016-0853-2
> 
> Byrne & Silla, 2017 “Testing the effect of dietary carotenoids on larval survival, growth and development in the critically endangered southern corroboree frog” Zoo Biology. 2017;36:161–169
> 
> McInerney, Silla & Byrne, 2016 “The influence of carotenoid supplementation at different life-stages on the foraging performance of the Southern Corroboree frog (Pseudophryne corroboree): A test of the Silver Spoon and Environmental Matching Hypotheses” Behavioural Processes 125 (2016) 26–33_
> 
> And another reference about the Booroolong frog, showing that the effect of carotenoids is dose- and life stage dependant.
> 
> _Keogh et al., 2018 “Dose and life stage-dependent effects of dietary beta-carotene supplementation on the growth and development of the Booroolong frog” Conservation Physiology, Volume 6_
> 
> A reference providing evidence for (carotenoid based) coloration being linked with body condition and health status in amphibians, with animals with higher levels of glucose and protein concentration in the blood showing a darker yellow and orange colouration.
> 
> _Brenes-Soto, Dierenfeld & Janssens, 2017 “Colouration in amphibians as a reflection of nutritional status: The case of tree frogs in Costa Rica” PLoS ONE 12(8): e0182020._
> 
> A PhD thesis by Victoria Ogilvy, specifically about carotenoids in frogs and their effects on health, development and color. Overall this contains some real gems of information regarding amphibian nutrition, both for tadpoles and adult frogs.
> 
> _Ogilvy, 2011 “THE INFLUENCE OF CAROTENOIDS ON FITNESS RELATED TRAITS IN ANURANS: IMPLICATIONS FOR EX SITU CONSERVATION” Faculty of Life Sciences, University of Manchester_
> 
> A paper by Ogilvy about the effect of carotenoids on red-eye tree frog coloration. With some very striking photographs showing the effects of dietary supplementation.
> 
> _Ogilvy, Preziosi & Fidgett, 2012 “A brighter future for frogs? The influence of carotenoids on the health, development and reproductive success of the red-eye tree frog” Animal Conservation 15 (2012) 480–488_
> 
> A paper about the carotenoids found in Rhacophorous bipunctatus. This paper has a short but interesting section in the discussion regarding which carotenoids could be effective precursors for vitamin A in frogs (discussing Lutein, Cryptoxanthin and Astaxanthin).
> 
> _Baruah & Goswami, 2012 “Characterization of carotenoid pigments in amphibian, Rhacophorous bipunctatus” Journal of research in Biology, 2, 114-118._
> 
> Two papers about the effects of diertary carotenoids on tadpole immunity and growth.
> 
> _Szuroczki, Koprivnikar & Baker, 2016 “Dietary antioxidants enhance immunocompetence in larval amphibians” Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, Part A 201: 182–188
> 
> Szuroczki, Koprivnikar & Baker, 2019 “Effects of dietary antioxidants and environmental stressors on immune function and condition in Lithobates (Rana) sylvaticus” Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology, Part A 229, 25–32_
> 
> A very interesting study where false tomato frogs were tested after being fed carotenoid enriched crickets. Main interesting results are the improved vitamin A status of the frogs (particularly when fed a mix of different carotenoids) and the coloration becoming more vivid. The photographs of the frogs really speak for themselves in this paper.
> 
> _Brenes‐Soto & Dierenfeld, “Effect of Dietary Carotenoids on Vitamin A Status and Skin Pigmentation in False Tomato Frogs (Dyscophus guineti)” Zoo Biology 33: 544–552_
> 
> A general review and guide to amphibian nutrition bundled into a master thesis, with some nice sections about carotenoids. A fair amount of the references mentioned above are also referenced here.
> 
> _Keulen, 2017 “NUTRITION OF CAPTIVE AMPHIBIANS” FACULTY OF VETERINARY MEDICINE, Ghent University_
> 
> Another paper illustrating the effects of carotenoids on amphibian (red-eye tree frog) skin bacterial flora, with animals being fed carotenoids rich diets supporting higher diversity in bacteria.
> 
> _Antwis et al., 2014 “Ex situ Diet Influences the Bacterial Community Associated with the Skin of Red-Eyed Tree Frogs (Agalychnis callidryas)” Plos One 9(1):e85563_
> 
> And finally a paper by Ogilvy again, showing that not all feeder insects are equal with regards to gut loading, storing and transferring carotenoids (and thus potentially also other nutrition) to frogs.
> 
> _Ogilvy, Fidgett & Preziosi, 2012 “Differences in Carotenoid Accumulation Among Three Feeder-Cricket Species: Implications for Carotenoid Delivery to Captive Insectivores” Zoo Biology 31 : 470–478_


Truly impressive work, @Johanovich . Thanks for taking the time.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Great resources, @Johanovich ! Fantastic contribution.


----------



## John J M

The main reason why I've been providing carotenoids in the diet is more for coloration. I've read quite a bit about astaxanthin in particular and it's a great antioxidant (100 x more powerful than Vit C), can cross the blood brain barrier and it responsible for a wide range of color from blue to yellow and most notably red. In fish, especially marine, it increases hatch and fry survival rates. But it's primarily a marine carotenoid and it's doubtful that it would find its way into the natural dart frog diet. Still, I feel it's worth including in the diet.

This discussion, while excellent, only serves to remind me of the major difficulty of nutritional biochemistry, which is everything effects everything else in the diet and you can go NUTS trying to figure it all out. Probably the most important thing is to feed as wide a variety of foods as possible, alternate between several high quality supplements and let nature take its course while keeping your fingers crossed.

I'm flabbergasted by the overwhelming scholarship of this group, and as a published researcher, I commend you all!!! I've never encountered a group with more hunger and consumption of the literature. But I fear that there's no ultimate solution to the perfect diet other than perhaps variety. I've been surprised to learn that bean beetles may actually have an ideal Ca ratio and I previously provided that reference on this site. Also I believe that I previously mentioned that annelids contain an ideal Ca ratio as well. I've recently experimented with feeding Grindal worms to my frogs and found them to be readily accepted. So I've even tried to make them a part of the vivarium bioactive inhabitants. And also keep in mind that some of what we feed our frog cultures also makes it into their diets. FFs while Ca supplements won't improve their Ca uptake but may actually cause decreased production, carotenoids will be incorporated. And I also know that Grindals will also incorporate dietary carotenoids because I've seen that when fed astaxanthin rich foods with turn from beige to reddish brown in color. Sorry if I'm coming off as a pessimist but I've gone through this exercise of ideal dietary futility with birds, fish and a host of mammals including humans, and found the problem to be without an ultimate solution.

edit: I've just discovered that my Ca ratios are being converted and should read as Ca : P and not the creepy little face.


----------



## Johanovich

John J M said:


> The main reason why I've been providing carotenoids in the diet is more for coloration. I've read quite a bit about astaxanthin in particular and it's a great antioxidant (100 x more powerful than Vit C), can cross the blood brain barrier and it responsible for a wide range of color from blue to yellow and most notably red. In fish, especially marine, it increases hatch and fry survival rates. But it's primarily a marine carotenoid and it's doubtful that it would find its way into the natural dart frog diet. Still, I feel it's worth including in the diet.
> 
> This discussion, while excellent, only serves to remind me of the major difficulty of nutritional biochemistry, which is everything effects everything else in the diet and you can go NUTS trying to figure it all out. Probably the most important thing is to feed as wide a variety of foods as possible, alternate between several high quality supplements and let nature take its course while keeping your fingers crossed.
> 
> I'm flabbergasted by the overwhelming scholarship of this group, and as a published researcher, I commend you all!!! I've never encountered a group with more hunger and consumption of the literature. But I fear that there's no ultimate solution to the perfect diet other than perhaps variety. I've been surprised to learn that bean beetles may actually have an ideal Ca ratio and I previously provided that reference on this site. Also I believe that I previously mentioned that annelids contain an ideal Ca ratio as well. I've recently experimented with feeding Grindal worms to my frogs and found them to be readily accepted. So I've even tried to make them a part of the vivarium bioactive inhabitants. And also keep in mind that some of what we feed our frog cultures also makes it into their diets. FFs while Ca supplements won't improve their Ca uptake but may actually cause decreased production, carotenoids will be incorporated. And I also know that Grindals will also incorporate dietary carotenoids because I've seen that when fed astaxanthin rich foods with turn from beige to reddish brown in color. Sorry if I'm coming off as a pessimist but I've gone through this exercise of ideal dietary futility with birds, fish and a host of mammals including humans, and found the problem to be without an ultimate solution.


To be fair, I am a molecular biologist and currently trying to finish my PhD (which as nothing to do with frogs though). 

Astaxanthin and canthaxanthin are actually present in a lot of insects, mites and other terrestrial crustaceans. A lot of algae (e.g. Chlorella) produce astaxanthin, albeit in much lower amounts compared to haematococcus (which occurs in tadpole habitats as well btw as it is a freshwater algae species). These algae are eaten by insects and other critters (AKA frog food) and thereby find their way into froggy stomachs. Several crustacean (and potentially insect) species also have the metabolic pathway available to them to convert betacarotene and/or zeaxanthin to astaxanthin.

See for example this paper about Melanophryniscus rubriventris, where the discussion specifically states that "Most of the arthropods that constitute the diet of M. rubriventris (see Bonansea & Vaira 2007) were reported as potential sources of β-carotene, canthaxanthin, lycopene, and astaxanthin (Goodwin 1954, Kayser 1982)."

_Bonansea, Heit & Vaira, 2017 "Pigment composition of the bright skin in the poison toad Melanophryniscus rubriventris (Anura: Bufonidae) from Argentina" SALAMANDRA 53(1)_



Socratic Monologue said:


> Great resources, @Johanovich ! Fantastic contribution.


Give me a few weeks when I've moved house and I'll do the same for the UV literature about frogs I have on my laptop


----------



## John J M

@Johanovich , very interesting indeed! I had read previously that *Haematococcus* was strictly a marine algae. If it is indeed freshwater as well, and I have no reason to doubt you, then I'm sure that astaxanthin has made it into the food chain and into wild frog populations as well. Which probably also means the EPA and DHA are also present in the diet as well, even if at low levels.


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## John J M

Well perhaps not but certainly ALA



https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236859650_Omega-3_fatty_acid_composition_and_biological_activity_of_three_microalgae_species


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## John J M

Found this today about Vit A1 content of FFs and diet/ight effects.









Dependency on light and vitamin A derivatives of the biogenesis of 3-hydroxyretinal and visual pigment in the compound eyes of Drosophila melanogaster - PubMed


When the fruitfly, Drosophila melanogaster, was reared on media deficient in carotenoids and retinoids, the level of 3-hydroxyretinal (the chromophore of fly rhodopsin) in the retina decreased to less than 1% compared with normal flies. The level of 3-hydroxyretinal increased markedly in flies...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





May suggest the need for near UV light as well as addition of vitamin A to FF media. But it can be increased.


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## Socratic Monologue

Added a note about the inaccurately labeled D3 level in Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-all that I ran across recently.


----------



## Colborne

Thanks, Socratic Monologue, for such a detailed posting. My following statement is not intended as a criticism of the knowledge contained in your article but rather is a criticism of all of us in the hobby who have grown to accept that coating of feeder insects is the best way to keep our frogs healthy.
I am not aware of any observer of frogs in nature having witnessed frogs eating insects coated with human-manufactured powder. Nor am I aware of any observer finding frogs dusted with powder and attributing the dusting to Mother Nature or some Divine source. 
So most of us who strive to provide a micro-climate in a "naturalistic" tank setting actually fall way short of the mark by providing dusted insects as food instead of demanding to know what we could be doing as a natural solution. Do we need to import insects native to the original habitat in the wild? Do we need to find a way to adequately and non-dangerously provide UVA and UVB in our lighting setup? I don't know, but I suggest that we as individuals, as clubs, as online groups should express our frustration at the scientific community and the commercial hobby interests for the lack of progress in getting to a practical solution instead of the wholly unnatural one of dusting our amphibian's meal in human-manufactured powder.


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## Johanovich

Colborne said:


> Thanks, Socratic Monologue, for such a detailed posting. My following statement is not intended as a criticism of the knowledge contained in your article but rather is a criticism of all of us in the hobby who have grown to accept that coating of feeder insects is the best way to keep our frogs healthy.
> I am not aware of any observer of frogs in nature having witnessed frogs eating insects coated with human-manufactured powder. Nor am I aware of any observer finding frogs dusted with powder and attributing the dusting to Mother Nature or some Divine source.
> So most of us who strive to provide a micro-climate in a "naturalistic" tank setting actually fall way short of the mark by providing dusted insects as food instead of demanding to know what we could be doing as a natural solution. Do we need to import insects native to the original habitat in the wild? Do we need to find a way to adequately and non-dangerously provide UVA and UVB in our lighting setup? I don't know, but I suggest that we as individuals, as clubs, as online groups should express our frustration at the scientific community and the commercial hobby interests for the lack of progress in getting to a practical solution instead of the wholly unnatural one of dusting our amphibian's meal in human-manufactured powder.


Well no, bugs (used here to encompass everything in a wild dart frog diet) aren't coated in the same way that we coat fruit flies. However the natural diet of a frog is pretty diverse, as are the diets of all the consumed bugs. On top of that, those bugs are coated with bits of soil, plant material, etc. and are gutloaded with this stuff as well.

There is no way that we can replicate this in captivity, and we definitely should not be importing loads of bugs that can develop into potential invasive species and disease vectors. We use these vitamin powders because the diets we can easily provide are fairly limited in diversity and do not naturally contain everything the frogs need. So we compensate this by dusting so the frogs get all the nutrition they need.


----------



## Socratic Monologue

Colborne said:


> Thanks, Socratic Monologue, for such a detailed posting. My following statement is not intended as a criticism of the knowledge contained in your article but rather is a criticism of all of us in the hobby who have grown to accept that coating of feeder insects is the best way to keep our frogs healthy.
> I am not aware of any observer of frogs in nature having witnessed frogs eating insects coated with human-manufactured powder. Nor am I aware of any observer finding frogs dusted with powder and attributing the dusting to Mother Nature or some Divine source.
> So most of us who strive to provide a micro-climate in a "naturalistic" tank setting actually fall way short of the mark by providing dusted insects as food instead of demanding to know what we could be doing as a natural solution. Do we need to import insects native to the original habitat in the wild? Do we need to find a way to adequately and non-dangerously provide UVA and UVB in our lighting setup? I don't know, but I suggest that we as individuals, as clubs, as online groups should express our frustration at the scientific community and the commercial hobby interests for the lack of progress in getting to a practical solution instead of the wholly unnatural one of dusting our amphibian's meal in human-manufactured powder.


The reason why captive insectivores need their prey supplemented (most easily by dusting, with difficulty and a low success rate by gutloading) is simply that captive produced insect prey is nutritionally deficient in relation to wild prey. Feeding wild collected 'meadow plankton' is thought to provide a satisfactorily complete diet without dusting (though it might reasonably be assumed that UV would have to be provided for a meadow plankton diet to be nutritionally comparable, and possibly providing other environmental similarities such as clay substrate might be part of the package too).

The thought that native insect prey would be needed is undermined by the success of all sorts of invasive species, most relevantly to us Hawaiian _D. auratus_ that are apparently thriving and also are toxic (though with a different alkaloid profile than those in their natural range).

I don't think "natural = better". That is, in fact, a categorized logical fallacy. It is also subject to an innumerable number of counterexamples, and has been used to justify all sorts of questionable recommendations throughout human history (a practice which, tragically, is no less common now than at any horrible time in the past). The 'natural/artificial' distinction is pretty problematic as well for those of us who don't postulate that _H. sapiens_ is somehow sui generis -- its own thing that is categorically different from everything else.

I also don't think (and could provide scads of reasons in case this isn't patently obvious) that 'naturalistic' or 'bioactive' vivs are anything remotely close to 'natural' in the wild environment sense. They're simply a way to produce better outcomes in certain (though certainly not all) captive herp species. We don't -- and shouldn't -- strive to perfectly replicate nature in a box. For one thing, it isn't possible; Biosphere 2 was (and is) really cool, but never a success, exactly (O2 shortages had to be artificially fixed, and the people inside were on their way to starvation at the end of a relatively short mission). For another thing, the success of captive animal keeping ought to be measured by the health and well being of the captive. The means to reaching that goal are irrelevant (so long as they meet typical content-neutral standards of moral permissibility, practicality, and so on).

I think dusting feeders is perfectly practical. It is really cheap, really simple and works well. Given the evidence that sequestered alkaloids are used by frogs for more than defense I think the next step in dart nutrition would ideally be the provisioning of those compounds in supplement dust or some other part of the diet.


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## Chris S

Colborne said:


> Thanks, Socratic Monologue, for such a detailed posting. My following statement is not intended as a criticism of the knowledge contained in your article but rather is a criticism of all of us in the hobby who have grown to accept that coating of feeder insects is the best way to keep our frogs healthy.
> I am not aware of any observer of frogs in nature having witnessed frogs eating insects coated with human-manufactured powder. Nor am I aware of any observer finding frogs dusted with powder and attributing the dusting to Mother Nature or some Divine source.
> So most of us who strive to provide a micro-climate in a "naturalistic" tank setting actually fall way short of the mark by providing dusted insects as food instead of demanding to know what we could be doing as a natural solution. Do we need to import insects native to the original habitat in the wild? Do we need to find a way to adequately and non-dangerously provide UVA and UVB in our lighting setup? I don't know, but I suggest that we as individuals, as clubs, as online groups should express our frustration at the scientific community and the commercial hobby interests for the lack of progress in getting to a practical solution instead of the wholly unnatural one of dusting our amphibian's meal in human-manufactured powder.


Your statement above just shows you have a fundamental lack of understanding on the captive husbandry needs of amphibians and their practical care. In addition, it shows your inexperience in the hobby. Supplementation has been instrumental in the ability to keep most of these animals long term. I'm not sure why we would in any way express any frustration towards the scientific community.

You can import all the insects you want, but how are you going to provide them with the food, vitamin and mineral sources that are abundantly available to them in the wild? It is just not practical in any manner.

In addition, UVA and UVB are both readily available for captive animals. Measuring them properly is the main concern, not their availability.

Do some more reading before posting absurd statements like the above...


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## fishingguy12345

Colborne said:


> I don't know, but I suggest that we as individuals, as clubs, as online groups should express our frustration at the scientific community and the commercial hobby interests for the lack of progress in getting to a practical solution instead of the wholly unnatural one of dusting our amphibian's meal in human-manufactured powder.


Given the legalities of importing insects, I'm very thankful we have access to high-quality supplements. 

If I had to import, feed, breed, etc. a multitude of insects and HOPE that I find a combination of feeders that provides sufficient nutrients for my frogs then I can tell you, for sure, that I wouldn't have frogs.


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## Socratic Monologue

Updated to include a brief evaluation of Repashy Supervite. Shout out to @Jsvand for uncovering this information.


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## Lemons/g

Socratic Monologue said:


> *Supplementing insect feeders for frogs*
> 
> _Why supplement? _​
> Most captive insectivores, such as dart frogs, are fed insects that are raised either commercially or by the keeper. Supplementing these prey items is both necessary and misunderstood; this article aims to explain both points, and to recommend research-based protocols and products for supplementation.
> 
> The recommendations here are intended only for dart frogs (though the needs of many insectivorous herptiles are quite similar, and so much here will be applicable to other taxa) that can be fed supplemented prey — so not, for example, new frog metamorphs that cannot or do not accept fruit flies. Frogs that are actively breeding may have different nutritional needs motivated by regular egg production; these needs are not addressed here.
> 
> _The importance of calcium_​
> Keepers sometimes assume that calcium must be provided because insects do not contain enough calcium for frogs. This is only partially correct, and is a misleading understanding. Though many feeder insects are calcium deficient, all contain much more phosphorus than calcium, and this imbalance is what causes health problems.
> 
> When a captive animal’s diet contains too much phosphorus in relation to calcium, parathyroid hormone (PTH) is secreted to reestablish proper levels. PTH causes a removal of calcium, first from blood plasma, then from bone — ‘nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism’. (7) This removal of calcium leads to a failure of bones to properly form and eventually a degradation of existing bone — ‘metabolic bone disease’ (MBD).
> 
> Supplementing commercially produced feeder insects is necessary to correct the inverse calcium to phosphorus ratio of those insects (1,3,5), ideally targeting 1.5/1 Ca/P (9). Only certain calcium compounds are suitable for use as supplements, as the amount of elemental calcium delivered has to be sufficient to offset the amount of P in feeder insects. The Ca content of various possible calcium sources per gram of compound are (3):
> 
> 
> Calcium carbonate: 400mg
> citrate 211mg
> lactate 130mg
> gluconate 93mg
> glubionate 66mg
> 
> Calcium carbonate is the standard for supplementation; calcium citrate can also yield acceptable results (3).
> 
> Failing to offer supplements at every feeding, often motivated by a hesitancy to “overdose”, is thus ill-advised. At least in regards to calcium, the overall dose is not so important as is offsetting the high levels of phosphorus.
> 
> _Vitamin D3 is necessary_​
> Vitamin D3 is required for proper uptake of calcium, and so needs to be provided. Though at least some species of dart frogs can synthesize Vitamin D through UVB exposure, all species also use dietary D3 very effectively. The simplest, least expensive and least potentially harmful way to provide Vitamin D3 to dart frogs is through supplementation. The risk of overdosing Vitamin D through supplementation is less than many keepers assume; though the daily requirements of amphibians are not well known, for most animals the presumed safe dose is 4 - 10 times the minimum requirement (3). Thus, an acceptable supplement product will contain Vitamin D3.
> 
> _Preformed vitamin A is necessary_​
> Vitamin A is also deficient in commercial feeder insects (2) Hypovitaminosis A is common in dart frogs, and is a cause of short tongue syndrome (STS) and pathologies of the eyes and reproductive organs (2), and general lack of immune response that can predispose the frog to infectious disease (3).
> 
> There is a misconception among keepers of many species of amphibians and reptiles that preformed Vitamin A (retinol A) is an overdose danger and should be replaced in the diet by previtamin A (carotenoids). This belief stems from a decades-old misinterpretation of chelonian respiratory issues as Vitamin A deficiency (most cases were due to Mycoplasmosis) that was treated by aggressive Vitamin A therapy (often via injection) (3). This practice led to widespread hypervitaminosis A, which in turn spurred a false assumption that preformed A is dangerous.
> 
> In fact, hypervitaminosis A is uncommon in captive herptiles, and the few cases that occur are typically due to the use of injectable A or the excessive feeding of mammalian liver (3).
> 
> Providing Vitamin A in the form of carotenoids was a response to the mistaken overdose worry. Some animals — herbivores and omnivores, primarily (8) — can convert carotenes to Vitamin A, and for these animals carotenoids may be a good source of Vitamin A. There is substantial evidence, though, that frogs cannot metabolize previtamin A (carotenoids) to Vitamin A (2, 3, 9). Providing frogs only carotenoids as a Vitamin A source is documented to lead to conjunctival (eye) lesions (3) and anecdotally the practice leads to death of the frogs, likely through inability to catch prey (12). Therefore, retinol A (performed Vitamin A) should be provided as a Vitamin A source. Carotenes have other benefits for frogs, though, and can be included in the diet in modest amounts (11).
> 
> _B complex Vitamins are (probably) necessary_​
> The B complex vitamins play a role in frog health, as well. Nerve issues, scoliosis, and spindly leg syndrome (SLS) have been associated with Vitamin B deficiency (9). Though feeder insects are not typically deficient in the B vitamins (4), an ideal supplement might include B vitamins.
> 
> _How often to supplement_​
> Supplementation protocols are thus best thought of as primarily correcting deficiencies in the food source, rather than providing vitamins and minerals to the frogs (about which vitamin and mineral intake needs are not well established (3, 4)). This is especially the case for calcium, which offsets the excess amount of phosphorus in feeder insects. Also, the vitamin content levels of every currently available all-in-one supplements are designed to meet the target animals’ needs when applied to all prey items offered. As such, every prey item should be supplemented at every feeding.
> 
> _Which supplements are useful?_​
> A satisfactory supplement dust must:
> 
> 
> rectify the Ca/P ratio of insects
> contain adequate Vitamin D3 for Ca metabolism
> contain Vitamin A as retinol (preformed Vitamin A)
> contain a wide range of other vitamins including E and the B complex
> optionally contain other dietary supplements for which benefits have been established (e.g. carotenoids)
> There are scores of supplements available, and nearly all of them are not suitable for dart frogs. Supplements most commonly marketed to frog keepers include:
> 
> 
> ZooMed Reptivite with D3
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ReptiVite™ with D3 | Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zoomed.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though this supplement meets all the other needs of frogs, since its primary ingredient is calcium phosphate it does not rectify the Ca/P ratio of feeder insects and is *not *suitable for use with dart frogs
> 
> 
> Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-all and Vit - all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Miner-All Indoor (2 Cans)
> 
> 
> Order the only human-grade calcium mineral supplement for optimum health of reptiles and amphibians, snakes, lizards, frogs, toads, newts, and more. Shop Here!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stickytonguefarms.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vit-All (2 Cans)
> 
> 
> Feeder prey supplement Essential amino acids and vitamins Scientifically formulated Guaranteed fresh Includes two 4-ounce cans (8 oz total) DESCRIPTION After years of herpetologists and breeders raving about how well Miner-all works, the demand for a comparable vitamin formula to use with it has...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.stickytonguefarms.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These two products are designed to be used together by gutloading prey with Vit - All, and dusting same prey with Miner - All. Beyond the tedious procedure recommended, the Sticky Tongue Farms supplements do not contain preformed Vitamin A and are *not* suitable for use with dart frogs. Additionally, Miner-all has been tested for D3 content and found to exceed the label claims by over three times; manufacturing consistency is suspect. (13)
> 
> 
> Flukers Reptile Vitamin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reptile Vitamin
> 
> 
> Reptile Vitamin is an essential vitamin for any reptile to have good health.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> flukerfarms.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main calcium source in Fluker’s Reptile Vitamin is calcium phosphate, and for this reason is not suitable for use with dart frogs.
> 
> 
> RepCal Herptivite and Calcium with D3
> 
> 
> 
> Rep-Cal Supplements
> 
> 
> 
> These are two separate supplements that are designed to be mixed immediately before use. Aside from the disadvantage of the tedious premixing procedure (necessary since RepCal does not use microencapsulated vitamins), RepCal products do not contain preformed Vitamin A and are *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.
> 
> 
> Birkhahn A-Vital
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Birkhahn A-Vital Vitamin Powder, 12,95 €
> 
> 
> Dendrobates,Phelsuma,frogs,lizards Science has known for a long time the necessity of vitamins, protein building blocks (amino acids), minerals and trace elements for the living organism ?These essential building blocks are needed for cell and skelet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dendroshop.de
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could find no direct manufacturer information on Birkhahn A-Vital. The first five ingredients (translated from German by Google) according to a retailer’s listings/product label are:
> 
> Stärke = starch (a filler)
> Tricalciumphosphat = Calcium phosphate
> Gelatine = gelatine
> Mannit = mannitol (a sugar substitute with poor intestinal absorption; probably used here as a filler or flavor enhancer) Mannitol - Wikipedia
> Tricalciumcitrat = calcium citrate
> 
> Though Birkhahn A-Vital contains all the major and minor vitamins of importance (though with a very elevated Vitamin A level, it is worth noting), it uses only unsuitable calcium sources (a common feature of many “legacy” supplements; Birkhahn A-Vital was formulated in the early 1990s) . Calcium phosphate cannot correct Ca/P ratios of insects because of its phosphate level, nor can calcium citrate as it contains insufficient amounts of Ca (3). For this reason, Birkhahn A-Vital is is *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.
> 
> 
> Ranarium Cal Bee + D3
> Cal-Bee + D3 | Ranarium
> 
> Though Cal Bee + D3 does contain a useful form of Ca (calcium carbonate) and Vitamin D3 neceesary for uptake of that Ca, it contains no further vitamins such as Vitamin A or E. It does contain a large amount (20%) of bee pollen. Bee pollen is a source of B-complex vitamins (though a highly variable source Dried bee pollen: B complex vitamins, physicochemical and botanical composition) (Chemical composition and botanical evaluation of dried bee pollen pellets)
> 
> I could find no studies whatsoever on the effects or value of bee pollen in amphibian diets.
> 
> Cal Bee + D3 is *not *a complete supplement for dart frogs, and contains an ingredient of questionable utility.
> 
> 
> Repashy Supervite
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Products by Size :: 3 oz Jar :: SuperVite 3 oz JAR - Repashy Ventures - Specialty Pet Products
> 
> 
> Supervite Micro-Fine Vitamin Supplement Our Micro Fine Vitamin Supplement powder Contains both Preformed Vitamin A and Beta Carotene INFORMATION SuperVite is the same Vitamin formula that has been the backbone of the SuperFoods line of complete diets and supplements INGREDIENTS Cellulose
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.store.repashy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Despite being superficially similar to Repashy Calcium Plus (evaluated below) and bearing a label claim that "This product can be used as a stand-alone supplement", Repashy Supervite does not contain a sufficient calcium level to be used as a stand alone supplement (14). Repashy Supervite is *not *a complete supplement for dart frogs.
> 
> 
> Various liquid ‘Calcium spray’ products (e.g. Fluker’s, Zilla)
> 
> Calcium spray products contain insufficient levels of calcium because they use unsuitable calcium sources (for example, calcium gluconate in Zilla’s product) or are simply mostly water (Fluker’s contains 6% calcium, compared to Repashy Calcium Plus 17%), and do not contain Vitamin D3, so Ca will not be absorbed by the animal. No spray products provide all the vitamins and minerals needed in a complete supplement. Calcium spray products are *not* suitable for use with dart frogs.
> 
> 
> Ranarium Rana-Vit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rana-Vit | Ranarium
> 
> 
> Nutritional needs of amphibians are closely related with husbandry needs, stages of development and unforeseen stress. Common examples of stress are previous overcrowding, shipping, improperly maintained enclosures. Proper supplementation is crucial. Rana Vit is a complete multivitamin...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ranarium.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rana-Vit contains a useful form of Ca, as well as Vitamin D3 and retinol. The inclusion of bee pollen is likely intended as a source of B Vitamins; as mentioned, this is a highly variable source. Rana Vit includes a small amount (0.6%) of Maca root, a human food source that is sometimes used as a libido and sexual performance stimulant. I could find no studies whatsoever on the effects or value of Maca root in amphibian diets.
> 
> Aside from the mentioned ingredients of questionable value, Rana Vit *is suitable for use with dart frogs*.
> 
> 
> Dendrocare
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dendrocare | Products | Dendrocare
> 
> 
> Jar of Dendrocare 50, 100 and 500 grams for sale vitamin and minerals for frogs and dendrobates
> 
> 
> 
> www.dendrocare.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dendrocare contains a suitable source of calcium, and all the major and minor vitamins needed for dart frog health. It does not contain any carotenoids, though some keepers may choose to supplement carotenoids separately. * Dendrocare is suitable for use with dart frogs.*
> 
> 
> Repashy Calcium Plus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Products by Size :: 3 oz Jar :: Calcium Plus 3 oz (85g) JAR - Repashy Ventures - Specialty Pet Products
> 
> 
> Calcium Plus VITAMIN AND CALCIUM SUPPLEMENT Our “All-in-One” Calcium Supplement with added Vitamins Trace Minerals and Carotenoids for Dusting Insects No need for a Separate Vitamin Supplement DIRECTIONS Use with every insect feeding Best applied by placing insects in a plastic bag or
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.store.repashy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Repashy Calcium Plus is the current gold standard for dart frog supplements. It includes the proper form of calcium, all the major and minor vitamins, preformed Vitamin A and a range of carotenoids. *Repashy Calcium Plus is suitable for use with dart frogs,* and should be the first choice for an all in one supplement.
> 
> 
> _How to dust with supplement_​
> Dusting feeders with supplement is simple. Place a small amount of the supplement dust in a cup or plastic bag. Add the feeder insects and swirl (if a cup) or hold shut and shake (if a bag) until all the insects are fully coated with supplement. Pour off the insects and offer to the frogs; discard the excess dust that remains in the cup or bag.
> 
> Though supplement dust adheres to insects for a handful of hours — at least five (10) — too many insects in the enclosure can be stressful to frogs. Feeding only as many as will be consumed by the end of the day is advisable. Remember that every insect offered should be dusted at every feeding.
> 
> 
> _An aside on gutloading_​
> Some keepers attempt to “gutload” feeder insects as a substitute for dusting. To be a substitute for dusting, gutloading must:
> 
> 
> 
> rectify the Ca/P ratio of insects
> contain adequate Vitamin D3 for Ca metabolism
> contain Vitamin A as retinol (preformed Vitamin A)
> contain a wide range of other vitamins including E and the B complex
> optionally contain other dietary supplements for which benefits have been established (e.g. carotenoids)
> 
> _What to use as a gutload_​
> Over time, the common conception of ‘gutloading’ has lost its original meaning and come to mean simply offering food to insects before feeding them to the target animal (3). This practice does not accomplish any of the five supplementation goals listed above.
> 
> Contrary to much internet misinformation, very few diets are suitable for use as a gutload. No moist diets tested improved the calcium content of insects (5). Calcium enriched water crystals do not improve the calcium content of insects (4). Fresh fruits and vegetables do not contain sufficient calcium, nor usable Vitamin A, nor Vitamin D3 and so are not suitable as gutload diets; in fact offering moist foods along with a proper gutload diet actually reduces the effectiveness of the gutload procedure (1), as the digestive tract of the insects must fill only with calcium rich dry food for gutloading to be effective.
> 
> Research has shown that gutload diets with irregular particle size (0.5mm - 3mm) do not improve the calcium content of insects regardless of the calcium content of the diet (6). It is unlikely that homemade from scratch diets would meet the homogeneity requirements of an effective gutload diet, regardless of their vitamin and mineral content.
> 
> Furthermore, very few commercial products sold as gutload diets actually work, both due to poor manufacturing standards (particle size) as well as significant content deviations from labeled guarantees. In a test of five such products (Timberline Cricket Power Food, Fluker’s High Calcium Cricket Feed, ESU Reptile Gutload, JurassiDiet Gutload, and T-Rex Calcium Plus Food For Crickets) only one (T-Rex) improved the vitamin and mineral profile of feeder insects sufficiently (6).
> 
> Even using a suitable product, gutloading is only effective if the proper diet is fed to feeder insects for 48 hours before offering the prey (1). Clearly, gutloading is not at all a straightforward substitute for dusting, and is in almost every case unknowingly used improperly, and thus ineffectively.
> 
> _Summary_​
> 
> All feeder insects offered to frogs need to be supplemented at every feeding.
> Only Repashy Calcium Plus or Dendrocare are fully effective supplements dusts.
> Gutloading is a very difficult, and almost always ineffective, substitute for dusting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _References, and for further study_​
> 1) Allen and Oftedal, 1989, “Dietary Manipulation of the Calcium Content of Feed Crickets” Journal of Zoo and Wildlife Medicine, 20 (1). (PDF) Dietary Manipulation of the Calcium Content of Feed Crickets
> 
> 2) Clugston and Blainer, 2014 “Vitamin A (Retinoid) Metabolism and Actions: What We Know and What We Need to Know About Amphibians” Zoo Biology, 33(6). Vitamin A (Retinoid) Metabolism and Actions: What We Know and What We Need to Know About Amphibians
> 
> 3) Divers and Stahl, eds. Mader’s Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery, 3rd. ed. 2019 Mader's Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery | ScienceDirect
> 
> 4) Ferrie, et al. 2015. “Nutrition and Health in Amphibian Husbandry” Nutrition and Health in Amphibian Husbandry
> 
> 5) Finke, et al, 2004, “Evaluation of Various Calcium-fortified High Moisture Commercial Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus” Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery. https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm.../Evaluation-of-Various-Calcium-fortified-High
> 
> 6) Finke, et al, 2005, “Evaluation of Four Dry Commercial Gut Loading Products for Improving the Calcium Content of Crickets, Acheta domesticus” Journal of Herpetological Medicine and Surgery (2005) 15 (1) https://meridian.allenpress.com/jhm...Evaluation-of-Four-Dry-Commercial-Gut-Loading
> 
> 7) Frye, F. 2007 “The importance of calcium in relation to phosphorus, especially in folivorous reptiles” The importance of calcium in relation to phosphorus, especially in folivorous reptiles | Proceedings of the Nutrition Society | Cambridge Core
> 
> 8) Green, A. 2016. Meeting the Vitamin A Requirement: The Efficacy and Importance of β-Carotene in Animal Species. Meeting the Vitamin A Requirement: The Efficacy and Importance of β-Carotene in Animal Species - PubMed
> 
> 9) McWilliams, 2008. "Nutrition Recommendations for some Captive Amphibian Species (Anura and Caudata) “ https://www.caza-narg.ca/ref/amphibian nutrition report CAZA 2008.pdf
> 
> 
> 10) Michaels, et al, 2014. "Manipulation of the calcium content of insectivore diets through supplementary dusting" , Journal of Zoo and Aquarium Research, 2 (3) usir.salford.ac.uk/id/eprint/36715/1/Manipulation%20of%20calcium%20content%20of%20feeder%20insects.pdf
> 
> 11) Dugas, et al, 2013. "Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive Success in Captive
> Strawberry Poison Frogs (Oophaga Pumilio)" (PDF) Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive Success in Captive Strawberry Poison Frogs (Oophaga Pumilio)
> 
> 12) 10 year old frogs legs collapsing
> 
> 13) Oonincx, et al, 2020. "The nocturnal leopard gecko (Eublepharis macularius) uses UVb radiation for vitamin D3 synthesis"
> Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology Part B: Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Volume 250, December 2020. The nocturnal leopard gecko (Eublepharis macularius) uses UVb radiation for vitamin D3 synthesis
> 
> 14) Repashy Supervite question



Hello, I’m new here. I’m currently using a dusting schedule of Nekton-Multi-Rep and Nekton-Rep-Calcium-Pur+. The first 4 ingredients of Nekton-Multi-Rep is Dicalcium phosphate, dextrose, calcium carbonate, and magnesium carbonate. Can I see the specific studies that show that the inclusion of calcium phosphate in supplements prevents the calcium to phosphorus ratio from being corrected? I used to use ZooMed Reptivite with D3.


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## Socratic Monologue

Lemons/g said:


> Can I see the specific studies that show that the inclusion of calcium phosphate in supplements prevents the calcium to phosphorus ratio from being corrected?


That claim comes directly from Maders (Divers and Stahl, reference #3). I quoted a centrally relevant passage above:



Socratic Monologue said:


> From Mader's Amphibian and Reptile Medicine and Surgery (3rd ed) (reference #3 above): "Most insects have a 1:10 Ca: P ratio, therefore a supplement with a 2:1 Ca: P ratio (common with bonemeal products) will never achieve a positive Ca: P ratio until the mass of the supplement is greater than the mass of the insect" (page 206).


The claim isn't based so much on direct study data as it is a mathematical inference from the tested Ca/P ratios of feeder insects and the known Ca/P ratio of various calcium compounds. "Bonemeal products" are calcium phosphate based.


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## Socratic Monologue

Lemons/g said:


> Hello, I’m new here. I’m currently using a dusting schedule of Nekton-Multi-Rep and Nekton-Rep-Calcium-Pur+. The first 4 ingredients of Nekton-Multi-Rep is Dicalcium phosphate, dextrose, calcium carbonate, and magnesium carbonate. Can I see the specific studies that show that the inclusion of calcium phosphate in supplements prevents the calcium to phosphorus ratio from being corrected? I used to use ZooMed Reptivite with D3.


A bit more info to add: the Nekton-Rep-Calcium-Pur+ is a calcium supplement, nothing more. Rotating in a supplement that doesn't contain Vitamins D and A necessitates providing those vitamins separately in the amounts needed. 

While some keepers (not me) depend on UVB to provide D3, providing less Vitamin A than is contained in Nekton-Multi-Rep is not a good idea; anecdotally, and for a number of frog species, Vitamin A levels in all-in-one supplements are borderline deficient (Nekton-Multi-Rep has the same Vit A level as do recommended supplements). A keeper could rotate in a dedicated Vitamin A supplement, but at this point the supplement program is primarily geared toward correcting the deficiencies in the various products themselves, rather than simply using a suitable supplement to begin with (actually, the same criticism of the Nekton-Multi-Rep and Nekton-Rep-Calcium-Pur+ pairing holds).

Contrary to the manufacturer's claim that "NEKTON-Multi-Rep has been developed in accordance with the latest scientific findings", this is a legacy product (so is ZooMed Reptivite, by the way, which I too used back in the day; and so is RepCal Herptivite). The use of calcium phosphate, and the idea that turtles should have a low level of Vitamin A in their diet, dates back to the 1980s-90s when these supplements were in their infancy and there was a common problem with people overdosing Vitamin A in turtles through other means than routine supplements.


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## Lemons/g

Socratic Monologue said:


> A bit more info to add: the Nekton-Rep-Calcium-Pur+ is a calcium supplement, nothing more. Rotating in a supplement that doesn't contain Vitamins D and A necessitates providing those vitamins separately in the amounts needed.
> 
> While some keepers (not me) depend on UVB to provide D3, providing less Vitamin A than is contained in Nekton-Multi-Rep is not a good idea; anecdotally, and for a number of frog species, Vitamin A levels in all-in-one supplements are borderline deficient (Nekton-Multi-Rep has the same Vit A level as do recommended supplements). A keeper could rotate in a dedicated Vitamin A supplement, but at this point the supplement program is primarily geared toward correcting the deficiencies in the various products themselves, rather than simply using a suitable supplement to begin with (actually, the same criticism of the Nekton-Multi-Rep and Nekton-Rep-Calcium-Pur+ pairing holds).
> 
> Contrary to the manufacturer's claim that "NEKTON-Multi-Rep has been developed in accordance with the latest scientific findings", this is a legacy product (so is ZooMed Reptivite, by the way, which I too used back in the day; and so is RepCal Herptivite). The use of calcium phosphate, and the idea that turtles should have a low level of Vitamin A in their diet, dates back to the 1980s-90s when these supplements were in their infancy and there was a common problem with people overdosing Vitamin A in turtles through other means than routine supplements.


Thanks, is Dendrocare all in one supplement borderline deficient in Vitamin A too? Do all in one supplements lack vitamin A for all frogs and lizards too, or is it only not enough for the number of frog species that you mentioned?


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## Socratic Monologue

It seems based on anecdotal reports that some species of frogs may have higher needs for Vitamin A in some situations than do many other herps generally. 

I don't say this to imply that keepers should just automatically give their frogs more Vitamin A (that's a big part of how that whole turtle thing that I mentioned happened). I say this to give more evidence for why certain supplements, or certain rotation schemes, simply aren't a good choice for certain species.

Dusting every prey item at every feeding with Repashy Calcium Plus is the most reliable and foolproof supplementation practice.


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## Kraken_Overlord

Thank you! I've been stressing over supplementing and this confirms that half of what I've read online is hokum. I'll stick to repashy calcium plus at every feeding and look for your vitamin A article if it turns out i get a breeding set 😊


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