# Frog Smuggling...Reality check



## MPepper (Feb 29, 2004)

Seeing the recent threads regarding the legalization of mystis, pros or cons, and the talk of vanzolini (amongst other smuggled frogs) being offering in UK, and europe as a whole i thought many would find this interesting.

On may 28 a shipment of 470 dendrobates was confiscated in lima en route to Holland. 114 were dead when the box was opened in lima, and surely all would have been dead when they arrived in holland.

28 more died on subsequent shipment back to Iquitos.

species included in shipment and approximate breakdown are as follows

mysteriosus 70
vanzolini 120
fantasticus standard 50
green legged lamasi 230

numbers might not be exact but are close.

vanzolini took the hardest hit and only about 40 remain alive.

regarding the mysteriousus better than half were juvenile, and many appeared to be only a few weeks out of the water, very small. all appeared to be cb, as all were flawless, no scaring as is common in many wild frogs. interesting...

Believe me when i say ther is NO justification for this, no one gains, not conservation, and not the hobby, and obvioulsy not the frogs, this is just another huge black eye for the hobby and will mean more delays before any legal exports are ever allowed from peru. many more of these frogs WILL die. Is this the price we are willing to pay to get new frog in the hobby. This is not an isolated incident, illegal shipments are leaving regularily, and are usually horribly packed. what we never hear about are the shipments where all arrive dead, and im sure there are many. When you purchase laundered frogs from europe, you are proactively supporting this type of behaviour.
If my words are not enough, ill post pics of a pile of dead mysteriousus and vanzolini when i return from peru in a few days. 

mark


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## Devin Edmonds (Mar 2, 2004)

Good post Mark. It's the depressing reality that many hobbyists aren't aware of, and that many who are aware choose to ignore. Please do post photographs.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

What a shame that these beautiful and rare animals have to suffer in the name of greed.

Thanks for the post.


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## ryalan (Mar 19, 2005)

*From Peru*

Yes is very sad how possible too nice frogs died
Those frogs were confiscated in a Tropical Fish shipment from a local aquarium here, the owner of that aquarium is a German guy who now says he rent his fish export License to the Holland collector, it menas that this holland guy were in several parts of our country and finally he deal with this german guy, I am sure about it cos any of the confiscated species are from Iquitos region, all are from diferent locations 
It happens all the times, 95% of the cases of smuggling comes from forein people (european, american, canadian guys too) they come here collect themselves or buy and then go back home with frogs or send any way. but the truth is that the huge problem will be for the german guy now
The other big problem is that for those smuggled frogs there are always customers ready to buy in your countries
The only way to buy non-smuggled frogs would be from reliable breeders-exporters with CITES documents


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## Guest (Jun 4, 2005)

Great post 

Very sad too. there should better harder laws to protect these frogs or any other animal being smmugled.

Ps: Mark please post the pictures in Canadart too.

Thanks

Xavier.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Newt said:


> Very sad too. there should better harder laws to protect these frogs or any other animal being smmugled.
> 
> Ps: Mark please post the pictures in Canadart too.
> 
> ...


And hobbyists need to be made to understand that when they obtain any of these questionable frogs, they are feeding these smuggling groups and all that goes with it.


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

I think what's even worse is the fact that a group of people can claim wild animals belong to them... 

Just because some people live in a land, does not mean that the wild animals there belong to them... 

I believe wild animals belong to the world and not just a group of people....


SB


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## hockeyboy (Oct 7, 2012)

It is sad what people will sacrifice just to make a quick buck


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

You would think that smugglers would realize that they don't make money on dead frogs. But, I guess if they get a few in alive they think it's worth it. Idiots!


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

This thread is 7 years old..


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

boabab95 said:


> This thread is 7 years old..


But the issue isn't!


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## JeremyHuff (Apr 22, 2008)

JeremyHuff said:


> But the issue isn't!


And it is pretty sad that this only got 6 replies back in 2005 with no real discussion about it. I guess everyone was busy designing their tanks for their new vanzolini...


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

JeremyHuff said:


> But the issue isn't!


Fair enough 

If vanzos are all smuggled, how come they are being flaunted around by SOME of those keeping them and being advertised so much?


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

boabab95 said:


> Fair enough
> 
> If vanzos are all smuggled, how come they are being flaunted around by SOME of those keeping them and being advertised so much?


UE sells them (legally). 

Ranitomeya vanzolini | Understory Enterprises

Unfortunately, it is pretty much impossible to know which ones are from the UE stock. It is all seller honesty.


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## SnakePaparazzi (Jul 20, 2008)

MPepper said:


> Is this the price we are willing to pay to get new frog in the hobby.


Sadly, there are many in the hobby who are willing to do exactly what Mark mentioned above. There are people who would put the welfare of wild populations aside just so they can have something more than what they want... They'll have something that they think everyone else is envious of. Unfortunately, there are people who see others with frogs in their collections that are obviously of illegal or very questionable origin. Instead of making a stand and not associating with these people or not buying from or trading with, they continue on like nothing ever happened. I think a good start to trying to mitigate this threat is to take a stand; refuse any dealings with these people. Lets starve them out of our precious hobby.

-Christian


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

boabab95 said:


> This thread is 7 years old..


Haha... I didn't even see that...LOL


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

easternversant said:


> UE sells them (legally).
> 
> Ranitomeya vanzolini | Understory Enterprises
> 
> Unfortunately, it is pretty much impossible to know which ones are from the UE stock.


Hi Adam,

You can get a receipt from UE and show it to the buyer.

Best,


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

True, for people who initially bought their frogs from UE. It quickly becomes harder when Joe got frogs from Sue who got them from Bob who bought them from UE. I guess this is neither here nor there though, there are much bigger issues.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

From what I understand (its been covered on this board before) of the vanzos that UE brought in, the only surviving individuals are all the same sex and I think, all belong to the same person.

That means all vanzos currently being bred, originally came from Europe.


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## gary1218 (Dec 31, 2005)

phender said:


> From what I understand (its been covered on this board before) of the vanzos that UE brought in, the only surviving individuals are all the same sex and I think, all belong to the same person.
> 
> That means all vanzos currently being bred, originally came from Europe.


That would be 100% correct.

I'm still hoping at some point in the future Mark brings them in again and gets me a male or two so we can get these guys established here in the states.

For those of you in Canada, there was a hobbyists up there that got them the same time I did and he has had success getting his to breed.


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## claymore (Feb 24, 2010)

I think that the smuggling of illegal frogs is a very over looked subject...

I bought a great Pair of Vanzolini from a reputable breeder at Frog Day May 2012.
I only found out about 2 months ago from a prior thread, that all the Vanzo Frogs in the hobby here in the U.S. are from imports from Europe... Only if I would have known before I picked them up.

And we all know that the origin of the European Vanzo stock came from illegal smuggling...

So now that Myself and other people as well have these Vanzolini, and the frogs we own are breeding, What should we do???

The best way to eliminating the Illegal Importation of Frogs or of any other animals is to limit the people buying illegal animals through the means of education. Posts like this, are one of the most important reasons to have open forums! 

Lets face it, the Vanzolini are here. 

I myself will have some Vanzolini froglets available for purchase in the near future...

The best advice I can give anybody that has their hearts on owning Vanzolini, is to make sure you are buying your frogs from good and reputable breeders. And make sure that all your frogs are bred in the USA and not brought in from illegal importers! 

A good rule of thumb, is to stay away from any European imports.

In other words, lets not make the situation any worse.

Bottom line if your buying any frog, always ask questions like: what line they are from, how old the frog, etc... The more information you have the better it is for you, your frogs, and the rest of the hobby!

And I would like to say a Thank You to Understory Enterprises and all the other people that import frogs legally and safely into the U.S.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

claymore said:


> I think that the smuggling of illegal frogs is a very over looked subject...
> 
> I bought a great Pair of Vanzolini from a reputable breeder at Frog Day May 2012.
> I only found out about 2 months ago from a prior thread, that all the Vanzo Frogs in the hobby here in the U.S. are from imports from Europe... Only if I would have known before I picked them up.
> ...


Wow! That post didn't turn out like I thought. 

So you are going to "limit the people buying illegal animals" buy creating more for them to buy?

I thought maybe you were going to say that your frogs are illegal and now that you know, you will keep the babies and separate the parents so they don't make anymore.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I thought Vanzos were in the US already I've been seeing posts about new vanzos and such, I never paid attention to whether they were in the US or EU. damn.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

phender said:


> Wow! That post didn't turn out like I thought.
> 
> So you are going to "limit the people buying illegal animals" buy creating more for them to buy?
> 
> I thought maybe you were going to say that your frogs are illegal and now that you know, you will keep the babies and separate the parents so they don't make anymore.


That doesn't make any sense either. Since the Vanzos are here and he obviously does have them breeding it would be better to let them breed, sell the babies to lessen the demand for smuggled ones.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

I'd agree. Smugglers are going to smuggle regardless. Those who have them now should breed them and get them out there.

Smugglers are like drug dealers. i would bet money that if the govt legalized weed, dealers would still smuggle some in because people wanted to buy wild grown weed and not farm grown stuff.  Stupid


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Most people who are new or go to the pet store/reptile show have no idea about illegal frogs. You go to the store buy a frog and that's it your done. I'm a pretty conservation minded kinda guy but the thought of a frog being illegal is new to me. I mean its there for sale right out in the open, who would think to question it? Obviously I get it now... I think the people buying these frogs either know they are illegal or don't, I don't really see much of a grey area. The problem in my opinion needs to be fixed at the smuggler, dealer, flipper level. The average consumer just doesn't know any better. As far as I know ads are reviewed before posted, doesn't seem real difficult to me to not let an ad be posted with a questionable frog. 
I like more rare kinda things so I would buy the more rare frogs but having an illegal frog does nothing for me and if I knew I would avoid them. You can't always expect the average consumer to do hours, days or weeks of research - has to be fixed at the top.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

outofreach said:


> Most people who are new or go to the pet store/reptile show have no idea about illegal frogs. You go to the store buy a frog and that's it your done. I'm a pretty conservation minded kinda guy but the thought of a frog being illegal is new to me. I mean its there for sale right out in the open, who would think to question it? Obviously I get it now... I think the people buying these frogs either know they are illegal or don't, I don't really see much of a grey area. The problem in my opinion needs to be fixed at the smuggler, dealer, flipper level. The average consumer just doesn't know any better. As far as I know ads are reviewed before posted, doesn't seem real difficult to me to not let an ad be posted with a questionable frog.
> I like more rare kinda things so I would buy the more rare frogs but having an illegal frog does nothing for me and if I knew I would avoid them. You can't always expect the average consumer to do hours, days or weeks of research - has to be fixed at the top.


Are you kidding yourself? Do you think you're gonna find illegal frog at a pet store or out in the open at a show? There are Fish & Wildlife agents walking around at show, that would be kinda stupid of the vendors to sell them out in the open at a show. Illegal frogs are dealt in a clandestine manner, friend of a friend crap. Very hush hush. Except for morons like Taron who posts an ad on DB.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Are you kidding yourself? Do you think you're gonna find illegal frog at a pet store or out in the open at a show? There are Fish & Wildlife agents walking around at show, that would be kinda stupid of the vendors to sell them out in the open at a show. Illegal frogs are dealt in a clandestine manner, friend of a friend crap. Very hush hush. Except for morons like Taron who posts an ad on DB.


Then I must of misread the thread about the blue jeans at the "show" or the frogs being posted here and many, many other threads here......

Could be my reading comprehension.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Are you kidding yourself? Do you think you're gonna find illegal frog at a pet store or out in the open at a show? There are Fish & Wildlife agents walking around at show, that would be kinda stupid of the vendors to sell them out in the open at a show. Illegal frogs are dealt in a clandestine manner, friend of a friend crap. Very hush hush. Except for morons like Taron who posts an ad on DB.


My knowledge is limited in this area, only know what I've read here.

I got a rash of $%$# for keeping froglets in a 2.5 gallon tank, I was told to buy a "shoe box ", its the same size.....

Consistent information would be good for the guy that hasn't read the whole internet yet.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Well obviously there is gonna be an exception to every rule, but for the most part. You're not gonna find anyone overtly advertising illegal frogs for sale.


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## claymore (Feb 24, 2010)

phender said:


> Wow! That post didn't turn out like I thought.
> 
> So you are going to "limit the people buying illegal animals" buy creating more for them to buy?
> 
> I thought maybe you were going to say that your frogs are illegal and now that you know, you will keep the babies and separate the parents so they don't make anymore.


The message (more of an idea) that I'm trying to relay is, that instead of relying on future frogs from shady sources or Illegal/European imports. We should focus on getting frogs from breeders in the U.S. and getting frogs from Legal Imports.

Considering that there are a lot of people out there including myself that are keeping R. Vanzolini. And most of us that are keeping Vanzolini are keeping pairs and those pairs are producing offspring....
At this point the R. Vanzolini that are in the U.S. are not illegal. To the best of my knowledge they were legally imported from Europe.
Bottom line we can't fix the past but we can change the future of this hobby.

Now I bought my Vanzos as a Proven Pair. Since most Ranitomeya do better in pairs and groups, I don't think it would be best in the frogs welfare to separate them. And I really don't see it necessary to euthanize the Vanzos offspring.

The damage has been done when it comes to the R. Vanzolini issue...
And since there are so many people keeping Vanzolini, the only damage control we can do is make sure we don't buy anymore illegal imports or European imports. 

And I'm sure that Vanzolini is not the only illegal frog stock that is floating around the hobby. In fact I wouldn't doubt that allot of the "old blood lines" came from Shady sources... And they are still in circulation.

When I buy frogs now I make sure that they have a proper origin in the hobby. In fact I just recently picked up a juvinal group of Baja Huallaga Imitators. One of the main reasons I picked these up was because they are of the U.E. line.


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## claymore (Feb 24, 2010)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> That doesn't make any sense either. Since the Vanzos are here and he obviously does have them breeding it would be better to let them breed, sell the babies to lessen the demand for smuggled ones.


Wow John, you said it way more simpler, I guess I didn't need to type that much.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> That doesn't make any sense either. Since the Vanzos are here and he obviously does have them breeding it would be better to let them breed, sell the babies to lessen the demand for smuggled ones.


Except there is no proof that this actually decreases demand for smuggled animals.. Instead the more typical scenario is that it actually increases demand until the point that the captive bred animals are cheaper and less desirable than the smuggled animals. See for example PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect 

The whole conservation through captive breeding idealogy sounds great but doesn't hold up to scrutiny.. See this discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

claymore said:


> .
> 
> Now I bought my Vanzos as a Proven Pair. Since most Ranitomeya do better in pairs and groups, I don't think it would be best in the frogs welfare to separate them. And I really don't see it necessary to euthanize the Vanzos offspring.


There is a large stretch between doing well in pairs and having to keep them together as opposed to singly... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> I'd agree. Smugglers are going to smuggle regardless. Those who have them now should breed them and get them out there.


Except your driving up demand and causing more demand for smuggled animals.. See my response above... 

Ed


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Except there is no proof that this actually decreases demand for smuggled animals.. Instead the more typical scenario is that it actually increases demand until the point that the captive bred animals are cheaper and less desirable than the smuggled animals. See for example PLOS Biology: Rarity Value and Species Extinction: The Anthropogenic Allee Effect
> 
> The whole conservation through captive breeding idealogy sounds great but doesn't hold up to scrutiny.. See this discussion starting here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511
> 
> Ed


Well what's an effective measure against smuggling? Lynch mobs? Waterboarding? Bamboo under the fingernails?
I say that in jest, but there has to be some measures that the hobby as a whole can take. Like number one would be to not buy smuggled frogs and put the smugglers out of business.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Well what's an effective measure against smuggling? Lynch mobs? Waterboarding? Bamboo under the fingernails?
> I say that in jest, but there has to be some measures that the hobby as a whole can take. Like number one would be to not buy smuggled frogs and put the smugglers out of business.


The best method to stop smuggling is to set in place a conservation program that provides some form of sustainable harvest so the locals are on board in protecting the animals since they are able to earn a better price than that paid by smugglers..... 

As I noted in my discussion on when does captive breeding become conservation, it doesn't do anything unless there is some form of incentive to not only protect the ecosystem but the animals in question. 

For a fuller analysis I suggest reading the link to the when does captive breeding become conservation thread... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

Rusty_Shackleford said:


> Well what's an effective measure against smuggling? Lynch mobs? Waterboarding? Bamboo under the fingernails?
> I say that in jest, but there has to be some measures that the hobby as a whole can take. Like number one would be to not buy smuggled frogs and put the smugglers out of business.


How would you know whether or not the adult auratus or tinc you are looking at a show is smuggled or not. Its not just the rare thumbs or oophaga that get smuggled. How would you know that any frog purchased on this board wasn't smuggled back in someone's luggage? Lets be honest. The only way to stop the smuggling of frogs is to stop buying frogs, all frogs. I'm thinking we are not willing to do that.

Am I the only one who is seeing a bit of a double standard here? Why is it horrible to sell sylvatica (sp?) that were smuggled into Europe but legally imported into the US, but OK to sell vanzos that were smuggled into Europe but legally imported into the US. It seems the same to me. I would think that if you were against one, you would be against the other.
What if I would have purchased the sylvatica that were floating around at a show (I actually could have) not knowing that they were probably smuggled (which I didn't at the time), would it be OK for me to sell the babies, since "they are already here" or would my frogs and I be forever tainted? 

I don't think selling more vanzos deters smuggling. It just assures the smugglers that they have a market for their frogs.

P.S. I never said you should euthanize the baby vanzos. I said I thought you would keep them.


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

I'll be waiting till UE releases their stock of legal vanzolinii before I get any. Unfortunately by then, they definitely won't sell as well as they would have if people hadn't bought all the Euro ones. 

This has happened with quite a few frogs in the hobby, especially Ranitomeya.


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## PumilioTurkey (Feb 25, 2010)

phender said:


> The only way to stop the smuggling of frogs is to stop buying frogs, all frogs. I'm thinking we are not willing to do that.




I think there is nothing else needed to add to this...


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

PumilioTurkey said:


> I think there is nothing else needed to add to this...


That isn't much of an answer or a solution. It would be much easier to just not buy smuggled frogs. Think of all the money we have brought in and can continue to bring in for amphibian conservation by supporting Wikiri, CRARC, UE, and Tesoros.


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm still fairly new to the hobby, but I think this information not only needs to circulate this forum regularly, but laid out for most of the newbies before they even get their first frogs. I don't think personally frog smuggling will ever be nipped in the butt completely, but it can definitely be mitigated by not supporting companies/people that illegally sell frogs, supporting companies that do sell legal frogs/work hard in conservation efforts, and getting the word out to old timers and frog newbies. 

Just trying to further understand, when you say don't buy smuggled frogs are you saying to also not buy any frog that is offspring with lines to EU? What are the people to do that don't know about this that have frogs from older lines supposed to do with their frogs? Please be gentle, as I am no expert, just trying to understand. Thanks


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Brian317 said:


> I'm still fairly new to the hobby, but I think this information not only needs to circulate this forum regularly, but laid out for most of the newbies before they even get their first frogs.


This topic is fairly common and often quite contentious due to the grey areas. Search illegal or smuggled and check out all of the discussions. 




Brian317 said:


> I don't think personally frog smuggling will ever be nipped in the butt completely, but it can definitely be mitigated by not supporting companies/people that illegally sell frogs, supporting companies that do sell legal frogs/work hard in conservation efforts, and getting the word out to old timers and frog newbies.


You are correct in the fact that there will probably always be some level of smuggling... There are always people who want that newer or previously unattainable frog... Just like there are people who pay for art to be stolen just so they can have it. 



Brian317 said:


> Just trying to further understand, when you say don't buy smuggled frogs are you saying to also not buy any frog that is offspring with lines to EU? What are the people to do that don't know about this that have frogs from older lines supposed to do with their frogs? Please be gentle, as I am no expert, just trying to understand. Thanks


As was noted here http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/88094-wikiri-smuggled-frogs-4.html#post779361 there are a lot of grey areas when considering frogs from the EU. There are legal frogs from the EU but there are also a lot of frogs that have ended up in the hobby over there through smuggled animals. It is hard to be sure which is going to be which. 

Some comments

Ed


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## FRISCHFROGS (Jan 15, 2012)

As Devil's advocate
Do the strict blanket laws help or hinder? All or Nothing!
I think these countries should release some of these animals to established zoos and (hobbyist) breeders. There are many top notch hobbyist breeders in this world. 
In their hands these legally imported frogs would produce many off spring that would help ease the illegal import business. Do Red Eyed tree frogs get
smuggled in?

Yes, I know the law makers go for "all or nothing" when it comes to the laws making animals illegal. One of their reasons is you cannot tell illegal animals from illegal ones. Lame!

Thank you to all you zoos, hobbyists and pro breeders who have worked so hard and learned so much in the wonderful world of captive bred frogs, snakes, lizards, tortoises, turtles , and all them other critters we keep.
Thanks, Fran


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

FRISCHFROGS said:


> As Devil's advocate
> Do the strict blanket laws help or hinder? All or Nothing!
> I think these countries should release some of these animals to established zoos and (hobbyist) breeders. There are many top notch hobbyist breeders in this world.
> In their hands these legally imported frogs would produce many off spring that would help ease the illegal import business. Do Red Eyed tree frogs get smuggled in?


This is a classic statement of the fallacy of conservation through captive breeding. You may want to read the link I provided above since it challenges these arguments. 

And as for the question on red eye treefrogs, it depends on what you mean by smuggling... It is clear that wild caught red eyes are being shipped out of Nicaragua in violation of thier laws requiring all of the exports to be captive bred... See _www.traffic.org/*cites*-cop.../CoP15_Prop13_Analysis.pdf_The export of the illegal red eyes from Nicaragua does meet what is considered illegal trafficking and thus smuggling... 



FRISCHFROGS said:


> Yes, I know the law makers go for "all or nothing" when it comes to the laws making animals illegal. One of their reasons is you cannot tell illegal animals from illegal ones. Lame!


How is that not true? 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Except your driving up demand and causing more demand for smuggled animals.. See my response above...
> 
> Ed


Again, still won't stop smugglers. They only way to really stop them is eliminate all interest in frogs, then they wouldn't have a reason to smuggle them. That's not going to happen.

Hell, look at parrots. Just about every colorful breed is bred by alot of pet stores and people in the US but yet smugglers still try to bring them across the border from mexico..stuffed in spare tires and wheel wells. Why are they doing this if you can go to the pet store and get one for cheap?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Again, still won't stop smugglers. They only way to really stop them is eliminate all interest in frogs, then they wouldn't have a reason to smuggle them. That's not going to happen.
> 
> Hell, look at parrots. Just about every colorful breed is bred by alot of pet stores and people in the US but yet smugglers still try to bring them across the border from mexico..stuffed in spare tires and wheel wells. Why are they doing this if you can go to the pet store and get one for cheap?


I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read any of the links I provided earlier since they covered an anwer that works quite well.... 

Some comments

Ed


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## amplexed (Jun 17, 2010)

claymore said:


> I think that the smuggling of illegal frogs is a very over looked subject...
> 
> I bought a great Pair of Vanzolini from a reputable breeder at Frog Day May 2012.
> I only found out about 2 months ago from a prior thread, that all the Vanzo Frogs in the hobby here in the U.S. are from imports from Europe... Only if I would have known before I picked them up.
> ...


If you feel strongly about the issue, you could sell the offspring and donate money from the sales to UE, or another conservation organization; UE comes to mind w/ the connection to efforts in Peru...


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## pdfCrazy (Feb 28, 2012)

Put simply, there is not one "end all, be all" solution to smuggling. It will be ever present in a hobby like this no matter what. It CANNOT be eliminated. There are certain methods that we as a group can utilize to lessen the demand for smuggled frogs, but that will only do so much, and in the end, it is a fact of life in this hobby.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm guessing that you didn't bother to read any of the links I provided earlier since they covered an anwer that works quite well....
> 
> Some comments
> 
> Ed


Nah, I'd rather hear it from you. Seems more official.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

pdfCrazy said:


> Put simply, there is not one "end all, be all" solution to smuggling. It will be ever present in a hobby like this no matter what. It CANNOT be eliminated. There are certain methods that we as a group can utilize to lessen the demand for smuggled frogs, but that will only do so much, and in the end, it is a fact of life in this hobby.


Actually there are methods... and one of the most effective methods is to work out a sustainable harvest program. This means that the locals are going to be able to produce a quality animal that can be sold for a higher price at thier level than they are recieving right now from smugglers and/or collection for the pet trade. This puts people on the ground who are invested in protecting the animals since they are directly earning money from them. Much more effective than attempting to police them through law enforcement or rangers... The people aren't going to want other people removing them since they are going to lose money. It also encourages protection for the local enviroment... 

The economics of it work to make smuggling economically unfeasible for those species... Getting the locals involved has actually worked well for reducing or eliminating poaching for a number of animals. 

Some comments 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> Getting the locals involved has actually worked well for reducing or eliminating poaching for a number of animals.


Yeah, that's working well for the gorillas I see. I guess it's hard to stop poachers when there's an ak-47 in your face.


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## Rusty_Shackleford (Sep 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Actually there are methods... and one of the most effective methods is to work out a sustainable harvest program. This means that the locals are going to be able to produce a quality animal that can be sold for a higher price at thier level than they are recieving right now from smugglers and/or collection for the pet trade. This puts people on the ground who are invested in protecting the animals since they are directly earning money from them. Much more effective than attempting to police them through law enforcement or rangers... The people aren't going to want other people removing them since they are going to lose money. It also encourages protection for the local enviroment...
> 
> The economics of it work to make smuggling economically unfeasible for those species... Getting the locals involved has actually worked well for reducing or eliminating poaching for a number of animals.
> 
> ...


Another good method is to quit rewarding bad behavior by buying frogs from these smuggler/vendors. Even by buying a perfectly legal frog from these people all you are doing is funding their smuggling.


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## JPccusa (Mar 10, 2009)

Unfortunately, not everyone has the same ethical values as you and I share in regards to frogs. Following that line of thought, it is easy to understand why there will always be a market for smugglers unless something ELSE is done. Leaving up to people will never suffice.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JaredJ said:


> Yeah, that's working well for the gorillas I see. I guess it's hard to stop poachers when there's an ak-47 in your face.


I'm beginning to think that either your clueless on the issues or are simply trolling in the thread... 

There are significant differences when the area is home to armed conflict from up to three different armies are attempting to control the region.... 


Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Ed said:


> There are significant differences when the area is home to armed conflict from up to three different armies are attempting to control the region....
> Ed


Of course there are differences, duh. Frogs aren't gorillas but the same basic principle is there. Point is, like JP said, smuggling is not going to be stopped... whether by supporting UE or not. Supporting UE is good because the gov'ts will eventually allow more frogs to be exported when they see the benefits to their people but it won't stop poaching. The more you try to stop it the more they will do it.



> trolling in the thread


lol.. arent you the pot calling the kettle black.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

JaredJ said:


> Of course there are differences, duh. Frogs aren't gorillas but the same basic principle is there. Point is, like JP said, smuggling is not going to be stopped... whether by supporting UE or not. Supporting UE is good because the gov'ts will eventually allow more frogs to be exported when they see the benefits to their people but it won't stop poaching. The more you try to stop it the more they will do it.
> 
> 
> lol.. arent you the pot calling the kettle black.


Ed is anything but a troll Jared. He's offering real solutions and explainations. Sometimes I don't know why he bothers.

Thanks Ed for all the useful information on the subject. I've taken the time to read almost every link you've posted in this thread and feel much better informed than before on the subject.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> Ed is anything but a troll Jared. He's offering real solutions and explainations. Sometimes I don't know why he bothers.
> 
> Thanks Ed for all the useful information on the subject. I've taken the time to read almost every link you've posted in this thread and feel much better informed than before on the subject.


Oh cause i came across some of his posts on a newt forum where he does the same as on here.

Ok...thanks for letting me know of his expertise. Why is he not working with ue or others in some sort of conservationalist role  maybe there he could do some real good.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

1) Maybe he has
2) Maybe he can't
3) Maybe you shouldn't worry about it - we've got him here and that's enough for us

s


JaredJ said:


> Oh cause i came across some of his posts on a newt forum where he does the same as on here.
> 
> Ok...thanks for letting me know of his expertise. Why is he not working with ue or others in some sort of conservationalist role  maybe there he could do some real good.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

Scott said:


> 1) Maybe he has
> 2) Maybe he can't
> 3) Maybe you shouldn't worry about it - we've got him here and that's enough for us
> 
> s


Woo hoo, praise god for that. I would have to agree.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

JaredJ said:


> Oh cause i came across some of his posts on a newt forum where he does the same as on here.


Good to know he is providing meaningful and useful information there as well. Not sure how you can even remotely insunuate that he is trolling. Look, I know it can be annoying when you think you've made a well reasoned thought out arguement, and then someone comes along and pokes it full of holes. This is what Ed does, not because he is a Troll, but because he is a well informed hobbiest and professional. I'm glad he takes the time to debunk some of the misinformation that is smeared around.




> Ok...thanks for letting me know of his expertise. Why is he not working with ue or others in some sort of conservationalist role  maybe there he could do some real good.


Maybe you're new here, I'm just gonna chalk this up to ignorance on your part, but pretty much everyone knows that Ed knows his stuff. Its almost a running joke now. Anytime someone posts misleading, wrong, irrelevant, rediculous, etc information, its a waiting game to see how long it is before Ed corrects you and backs it up with supporting information to prove it so that you know where that information comes from.

I'll leave it up to Ed wether he feels like he needs to provide his credentials to you, but I can assure you that his expertise in the amphibian husbandry field is more than sufficient. He's a well respected member with over *FIFTEEN THOUSAND* posts. Feel free to continue your discussion with him, as everytime this happens, inevitably Ed posts even more information that we all benifit from. You should read it too, you'll probably learn something.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

ZookeeperDoug said:


> . He's a well respected member with over *FIFTEEN THOUSAND* posts.


Hijack here... I actually find this a somewhat source of embarassment and frustration since it is usually due to me having to repeat information over and over again... one of the reasons I keep doing it is because the better you understand the animals, thier feeders and some of the impacts of captive husbandry, the better care we can provide for the animals. 

Thanks for the support everyone. 

Ed


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

> with over FIFTEEN THOUSAND posts


Oh my god, that explains it all then. Thanks Doug.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> I'm beginning to think that either your clueless on the issues or are simply trolling in the thread...
> 
> There are significant differences when the area is home to armed conflict from up to three different armies are attempting to control the region....
> 
> ...


if you're referring to the congo and surrounding areas, it's probably more than three groups of belligerents. 

that place is a hellish mess ATM


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> Hijack here... I actually find this a somewhat source of embarassment and frustration since it is usually due to me having to repeat information over and over again... one of the reasons I keep doing it is because the better you understand the animals, thier feeders and some of the impacts of captive husbandry, the better care we can provide for the animals.
> 
> Thanks for the support everyone.
> 
> Ed


I should also add, I don't like putting my credentials out front.. I've found that when credentials are out front, people tend to be swayed more by credentials than the actual information. I would prefer to see people read the information and make a decision based on that basis without changing thier perceptions based on authority. 

Ed


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

JaredJ said:


> Oh my god, that explains it all then. Thanks Doug.


No problem. I knew it was simply a matter of pointing out the right credentials in order to persuade you. Glad we're all on the same page now.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

JaredJ said:


> Oh my god, that explains it all then. Thanks Doug.


Don't go there JaredJ. Ed is my secret online boyfriend. 

Seriously, though, step back and read his posts objectively and you'll see how lucky we are to have him.

eta: There is one thing I don't like about Ed, though. I used to think I was smart, lol.


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

Ed said:


> I should also add, I don't like putting my credentials out front.. I've found that when credentials are out front, people tend to be swayed more by credentials than the actual information. I would prefer to see people read the information and make a decision based on that basis without changing thier perceptions based on authority.
> 
> Ed


I completely agree. The overwhelming wealth of information you've provided from other sources should be enough in this case, but of course since jared is a skeptic and all but asked for your expertise to be proven, I felt compelled to get your back, especially since you've been so helpful to me in the past. It really does bother me when people are so beligerant toward members who are so well intentioned and helpful such as yourself. 

I realize now though, that he is probably all too familiar with who you are and what you know and probably knows full well enough of your credentials to all but affirm your secondary analysis of the situation; he's just trolling the thread.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogface said:


> eta: There is one thing I don't like about Ed, though. I used to think I was smart, lol.


Don't equate a good memory and some level of OCD on information with intelligence...... I wouldn't say you weren't intelligent. 


But that is enough of a love fest in the middle of an important topic. 
Ed


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

frogface said:


> Don't go there JaredJ. Ed is my secret online boyfriend.
> 
> Seriously, though, step back and read his posts objectively and you'll see how lucky we are to have him.
> 
> eta: There is one thing I don't like about Ed, though. I used to think I was smart, lol.


I am jealous.


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## outofreach (Aug 21, 2012)

billschwinn said:


> I am jealous.


I'm new and all but is this a dating site?

If it is.....

I like candlelight dinners, long walks on the beach, snuggling on the couch watching a scary movie..............

Contact me. [email protected]


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Topic, on please.

s


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Getting slightly back on track... I believe in Africa in some areas one of the tactics to reduce poaching is reeducating the locals, and hiring them as game wardens...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jacobi said:


> Getting slightly back on track... I believe in Africa in some areas one of the tactics to reduce poaching is reeducating the locals, and hiring them as game wardens...


Yes, and the people hired in as the wardens in some locals have shown amazing tenacity in attempting to protect thier charges (mountain gorillas for example). The problem is that these are govermental positions and thier mandates may conflict with the local politics resulting in issues with enforcement.... see the comparision in this article http://pubpages.unh.edu/~jnz6/Professional/Publications/Hartter and Goldman 2009.pdf 

Ed


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

The reality is we all care about frogs way more than their native countries. Smuggled or not, their native locales are being exterminated mostly for timber, construction or even coca. If the frogs don't "escape" into the hobby, they will become extinct. Since Central America as a whole doesn't really care, does everyone really believe UE can save thousands of species? Don't have specific references Ed, but just Google "amphibian extinction" and you can spend all day. Do we as a hobby even have an organized, meaningful conservation effort from the US side? As long as the supply demand gap exists, there will be smugglers and people who buy from them will figure out how to slowly get sales. Does this really matter or are you worried about the frogs? Even at 8000 imports per year of total frogs (Eds #'s) this is minimal to most populations. Watching the presentations from Columbia and CostaRica at the Exoterra symposium in Daytona, it was blatantly obvious the real conservationists are focused on deforestation. Brian in CR was asked and told us he had seen 1 smuggler in his whole career! Granted Panama is different, but worldwide I think we are largely missing the problem.
What will happen when Red Frog beach is full of condos and no pums exist there? The government of Panama will be making more tax $, won't care, and.. no pums! As a hobby, maybe we should be more aggressive and responsible on the conservation side (? treewalkers) as what I see so far (ex. UE) has yet to build support of any endangered species or repopulate anywhere, unlike other efforts in US. (manatee, sea turtle, avian species like sea pipers, tortoises)


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## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Turningdoc said:


> If the frogs don't "escape" into the hobby, they will become extinct.


This is merely a justification for the hobby. Ed has cited multiple examples about how this doesn't really work in the hobby because they aren't managed. It isn't "our" job to do this--that is why we have scientists who legally collect species at extreme risk for ark programs (ex Atelopus zeteki).





Turningdoc said:


> As long as the supply demand gap exists, there will be smugglers and people who buy from them will figure out how to slowly get sales. Does this really matter or are you worried about the frogs?


Yes, this does. Go to the conservation section of the Brown et al. 2011 massive monograph (www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/PDFs/Brown_Twomey_etal_2011_Revision_of_Ranitomeya.pdf). They specifically write about how heavily smuggled morphs/species can in some instances not be found in the wild despite hard work by a lot of truly great biologists (one example: vanzo). This makes a huge impact in some instances.



Turningdoc said:


> Even at 8000 imports per year of total frogs (Eds #'s) this is minimal to most populations.


I'd like to see your supporting data on this, and so would the scientific community. In many instances (pumilio for example) countries are 'legally' exporting animals at a 'sustainable harvest' without any real data to back it up.



Turningdoc said:


> Watching the presentations from Columbia and CostaRica at the Exoterra symposium in Daytona, it was blatantly obvious the real conservationists are focused on deforestation.


I will agree with you on this, deforestation is a major concern, more so than smuggling. It doesn't do any good to prevent smuggling if the habitat is no longer there. Unfortunately, deforestation is a huge concern and is really up to each country and local governments to prevent.




Turningdoc said:


> as what I see so far (ex. UE) has yet to build support of any endangered species or repopulate anywhere, unlike other efforts in US. (manatee, sea turtle, avian species like sea pipers, tortoises)


Keep in mind that as great as UE is, it is a business. It is not their job, nor do they have permits, to repopulate. They do own and maintain 2 sites in Peru (one near Iquitos and one near the town of Chazuta) and the Chazuta site does contain Ranitomeya summersi, an endangered species. This site is in an area that has been heavily deforested for farms. It is very hard to get people in developing nations interested in saving their forest and species when they are concerned that they won't be able to feed their families. Chazuta has recently made great strides towards saving some land and bringing in eco-tourism. I think this is in large part due to UE owning the land and parading a whole bunch of poison frog biologists into the town to live and work since ~2005 as well as employing locals to maintain their land.

Just some thoughts to continue this discussion...


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

^Well said.

Only thing I would add is in response to the other countries not caring about the frogs and forests. This is not true at all. Most of these nations don't have the means to buy and protect land, or to enforce laws against smuggling and illegal deforestation. The laws are in place, but they don't have the man power. This makes sense when you realize the majority of the money is going towards stopping large drug cartels, crime syndicates, and lowering the poverty level.

Also, in the 70's, Costa Rica only had around 25% of their original forest cover. Then the government put several protections and conservation easements in place and now they have over 70% forest cover. The nations care, it's just a matter of acquiring funds. Which is where we can come in, even if it is in small ways.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Turningdoc said:


> The reality is we all care about frogs way more than their native countries. Smuggled or not, their native locales are being exterminated mostly for timber, construction or even coca.


There are two further points that have to be made here..
1) a number of dendrobatids can show high population density in disturbed habitat so to argue that clearing is always negative isn't totally correct. Lotter's et al. The amount of clearing is also important and to claim that development will extirpate pumilio populations also is not a given since this is one of the species that thrives in disturbed habitat. 

2) the reason we see so much logging is that this is the most profitable and there are often little other sources of significant revenue. We can see the changes with things like brazil nuts which allow an increased revenue stream resulting in protection of the forest. http://ainfo.cnptia.embrapa.br/digital/bitstream/item/42810/1/AP-2011-Brazilnut.pdf 




Turningdoc said:


> If the frogs don't "escape" into the hobby, they will become extinct.


"Escaping" into the hobby doesn't stop extinction... this would require 
1) management of the population for genetic stability
2) management of the population for stability of numbers 

This is a common argument of those who promote the flawed conservation to captive breeding approach. ( for a discussion on this see thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/sc...e-bred-conservation-efforts-2.html#post576511). 



Turningdoc said:


> Since Central America as a whole doesn't really care, does everyone really believe UE can save thousands of species? Don't have specific references Ed, but just Google "amphibian extinction" and you can spend all day.


And in a huge number of those animals, pet trade is recognized as a significant threat...possibly not as much as habitat destruction, but it is still very high so to imply that we aren't a significant part of the problem is looking at the problem through rose colored glasses... 



Turningdoc said:


> Does this really matter or are you worried about the frogs? Even at 8000 imports per year of total frogs (Eds #'s) this is minimal to most populations.


Point of clarity. These are not my numbers, they are the numbers registered in the CITES trade database. I would have added a link to the pages but since they are the result of a customized search on thier site, links don't take you to the actual search results.... You can register and use it yourself to confirm those numbers CITES trade database

As for removal of 8000 animals, to claim it is minimal to most populations is misleading since it ignores how much damage it can do to populations on a local level which is important when we are considering animals that are extremely localized in thier population (example pumilio color variations)... 




Turningdoc said:


> What will happen when Red Frog beach is full of condos and no pums exist there? The government of Panama will be making more tax $, won't care, and.. no pums!


While this is a repeated rallying cry, there isn't any proof that this will actually cause the local pumilio populations to go extinct given that pumilio actually can thrive in human disturbed sites. 



Turningdoc said:


> As a hobby, maybe we should be more aggressive and responsible on the conservation side (? treewalkers) as what I see so far (ex. UE) has yet to build support of any endangered species or repopulate anywhere, unlike other efforts in US. (manatee, sea turtle, avian species like sea pipers, tortoises)


While I agree the hobby could do better on focusing thier efforts into sustainable usages, to attempt to require repatriation or population supplementation as part of the equation is not only unrealistic (for multiple reasons (see the wild caught link above)) but a potential disaster for the wild populations. In short for this to be viable, exposure to novel pathogens, outbreeding depression and adaption to captivity have to be managed and virtually no sections of the hobby as it is today are managing any of these issues. Instead programs like UE (See what they do here Poison Frog Conservation, New Land | Understory Enterprises) do help with conservation since they protect local areas of importance or when UE, imports frogs from WIKIRI, that goes directly into research and land protection... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Turningdoc (May 24, 2012)

Great points Ed. I just feel like a lot of time is spent discussing this topic without any real substantive change.

Originally Posted by Turningdoc<br />
If the frogs don't "escape" into the hobby, they will become extinct.[/quote] <br />
<br />
"Escaping" into the hobby doesn't stop extinction... this would require <br />
1) management of the population for genetic stability<br />
2) management of the population for stability of numbers <br />
<br />

Why couldn't this be done? It has been done with many other endangered populations.
Also, being somewhat new to frog politics I have to ask, but you all don't have to respond. What's up with Treewalkers? Seemed like a good start, but not much substance or progress in education w data like Ed is citing or unification on goals like population managment. Maybe if more people understood the facts, they would be willing to help w change in how they purchase hobby animals or contributing to efforts to conserve them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Turningdoc said:


> Great points Ed. I just feel like a lot of time is spent discussing this topic without any real substantive change.


This is not a new topic... It's been discussed repeatedly over the years yet we see a lot of apathy and in some cases direct misinformation being passed around the hobby.. for example, there are people who claim that frogs in general and dendrobatids in particular are resistent to multiple generational inbreeding so there is little or no need to manage the populations for sustainability. 

In addition, this is further compounded with the popularity cycles of the frogs with boom and bust populations occuring in the hobby which further contribute to not only a loss of genetics but potentially frogs. 




Turningdoc said:


> Why couldn't this be done? It has been done with many other endangered populations.
> Also, being somewhat new to frog politics I have to ask, but you all don't have to respond. What's up with Treewalkers? Seemed like a good start, but not much substance or progress in education w data like Ed is citing or unification on goals like population managment. Maybe if more people understood the facts, they would be willing to help w change in how they purchase hobby animals or contributing to efforts to conserve them.


TWI is a great program and is totally run by volunteers so basically it can only progress as fast as those who are trying have time to deal with issues.. TWI isn't the first attempt to help people manage the populations.. first there was frogtrax run by Robb Melancon.. needless to say he also experienced poor participation by the hobby.. and frogtrax is still going.... 

Overall, the hobby has not been interested in these sorts of programs despite losing one "morph" already ("Giron Valley form of E. anthyoni) and having had at least one cycle of extinction before people were able to replenish thier animals through further imports (Melanophryniscus stelzneri). 

A thread on this topic from last year http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/science-conservation/71994-keeping-species-morphs-going-hobby.html 

and a related one..... http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/71935-rarest-frog-hobby-7.html

Some comments

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

My understanding is that there was a seizure of illegally imported R. vanzolinis that were released back to hobbyists in the EU. This created a de facto legal line and is used as the justification for legal US imports from Europe.

That's my understanding of the issue.

Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Woodsman said:


> My understanding is that there was a seizure of illegally imported R. vanzolinis that were released back to hobbyists in the EU. This created a de facto legal line and is used as the justification for legal US imports from Europe.
> 
> That's my understanding of the issue.
> 
> Richard.


This is another one of the grey areas since not all countries accept these releases as legal. In most cases the US has allowed importation of these animals with proper permits. 

Some comments 

Ed


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