# Museum selling hybrid dart frogs to the public



## rcteem

So I had the day off and had heard that a local museum had a dart frog exhibit. This museum in Durham, NC isnt state funded from what I gathered. When I got there I was completely in shock to see what I saw. 

I met with the guy in charge and played as a dumb person at first trying to see how much he knew....not much. In the 110 gallon tank were Tinc hybrids, pumilio, leucs, galacts, and auratus. I believe there were 18-20 frogs in this viv. He began to brag to me that he had a success rate from eggs to froglets of 50-60%. 

I then let him know a lil about me and my experience with dart frogs...should pictures and all to him. I even offered to give up my time to help them set up a proper viv for the frogs. He said he would think about it and would get back to me thankfully. Then he asked if I would like to buy some of these hybrids. He told me he sells them to people when they show enough intrest in the darts. It was a very sad day to hear of a museum selling hybrids to people as pets and not willing to cull the eggs.

I have attached some pictures of the frogs and the viv. I didnt talk much about the viv cause the pictures will speak for itself. The viv had 4-5 plants and maybe 5 leaves on the floor total in the viv.


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## tim13

im new to all this and i know enough to think its sad..... did the guy seem willing to listen to advice. did you try to direct him to this forum?


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## rcteem

tim13 said:


> im new to all this and i know enough to think its sad..... did the guy seem willing to listen to advice. did you try to direct him to this forum?


He seemed somewhat open but after asking around about this museum I wasn't the first person to offer help. He seems to be a person that is "If it aint broke, why fix it". Until he starts having dart frogs die he probably wont change it to much, I hope I am wrong though and will hear back from him soon.


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## Woodsman

So, according to Marcus at Tropical Experience, this is an out-cross (not a hybrid) called D.t. X "Agreja" (Powderblue times Azureus). These were the two tinctorius morphs in the vivarium together?

If you can get an address and contact name for the institution, I think we should send a letter describing the situation as we see it, the goals of the hobby to keep our frogs as close to the look they would have in nature, and the confusion it creates when institution purposely release these out-crosses into the hobby.

That would be my approach, Richard.


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## DJboston

I just went to the New England Aquarium and while their enclosure for Darts is kind of cool, they mix tons of species and the frogs looked like they haven't eaten in 2 weeks. Some of them were so skinny. Really sad to see. One volunteer there mentioned that he doesn't like to see exotics in the hands of the general public after my girlfriend mentioned I am huge into dart frogs. After he said that, she replied "well I think it's sad that his frogs are in 10 times as better condition as the ones in a giant metro-aquarium." I thought it was hilarious.


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## rcteem

DJboston said:


> I just went to the New England Aquarium and while their enclosure for Darts is kind of cool, they mix tons of species and the frogs looked like they haven't eaten in 2 weeks. Some of them were so skinny. Really sad to see. One volunteer there mentioned that he doesn't like to see exotics in the hands of the general public after my girlfriend mentioned I am huge into dart frogs. After he said that, she replied "well I think it's sad that his frogs are in 10 times as better condition as the ones in a giant metro-aquarium." I thought it was hilarious.


I understand the mix tank reasoning for museums. What my issue was the selling of the hybrids to the public...That affects us as a hobby now!!!


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## rcteem

Woodsman said:


> So, according to Marcus at Tropical Experience, this is an out-cross (not a hybrid) called D.t. X "Agreja" (Powderblue times Azureus). These were the two tinctorius morphs in the vivarium together?
> 
> If you can get an address and contact name for the institution, I think we should send a letter describing the situation as we see it, the goals of the hobby to keep our frogs as close to the look they would have in nature, and the confusion it creates when institution purposely release these out-crosses into the hobby.
> 
> That would be my approach, Richard.


Thats what it looks like to me too Richard. I have already addressed the director of that department about the situation and the letter isnt a bad idea either.


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## botanyboy03

I know which museum you're talking about, I did a plant rescue years ago when they were expanding their PARKING LOT into their wooded and planted trail system. This is appalling though. Thank god its not the museum in Raleigh though.

Zac


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## boabab95

The only think I like about it, is the hardscaping in the viv...LOL

That's ridiclous...


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## frogface

Thanks for bringing this up, Chris.

If you do hear back from him, I'd be willing to help too. Heck, we could make it a project for the SC/NC group.


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## stemcellular

DJboston said:


> I just went to the New England Aquarium and while their enclosure for Darts is kind of cool, they mix tons of species and the frogs looked like they haven't eaten in 2 weeks. Some of them were so skinny. Really sad to see. One volunteer there mentioned that he doesn't like to see exotics in the hands of the general public after my girlfriend mentioned I am huge into dart frogs. After he said that, she replied "well I think it's sad that his frogs are in 10 times as better condition as the ones in a giant metro-aquarium." I thought it was hilarious.


yeah, sadly the frogs in the NE exhibit are in pretty poor shape. Check out the exhibit at the Calif. Academy of Sciences in San Fran next time you are out that way, they are in fine shape.


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## skylsdale

Just to reiterate what Richard pointed out: these are not hybrids, but outcrosses. Hybrids are the result of two different _species_ being bred together (i.e. tinctorius with leucomelas, etc.). An outcross is the result of breeding together frogs from two different locales (still within the same species, but from genetically isolated populations). 

Breeding a rainbow and cutthroat trout together is hybridization (producing what anglers call a "cutbow")...breeding two cutthroat trout together from seperate and isolated river systems is an outcross.


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## vivlover10

Since I am a boy scout and all and my little brother is a cub. he had a feild trip to sleep over at the local aquarium, Atlantis marine world. It was pretty sad to see 4 mixed speices in a less ten gallon tank. They were azerius and arutus, she also had a group of 5 Leucs In a normal ten. But she lost three who probably became fish food. Now she has two that became a pair. 
I asked her about them and told I got a thumb and it was a varadero, no clue what I was saying.


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## poison beauties

If he doesn't respond or change anything perhaps an ad in their local paper is due explaining what the frog hobby has against this along with some info on what the mixed overpopulated vivs cause both outcrossed offspring along with heavy parasite loads and other possible infections. Make it sound like a puppy mill which is what it seems to be since you say he is readily selling froglets. Make it clear you and the hobby has offered free help on the matter to help better conditions and were turned down.

Michael


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## dtfleming

stemcellular said:


> yeah, sadly the frogs in the NE exhibit are in pretty poor shape. Check out the exhibit at the Calif. Academy of Sciences in San Fran next time you are out that way, they are in fine shape.


I plan on going this summer when we go to visit my wife's parents and sister.


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## Woodsman

Hi Michael,

The mission of most museums is education, so I think one would have better success explaining the situation to the museum director rather than try to strong arm them. I doubt that the museum started-out with the intention of "destroying" the dart frog hobby and I think the approach you've outlined sounds pretty punative.

Just my though, Richard.



poison beauties said:


> If he doesn't respond or change anything perhaps an ad in their local paper is due explaining what the frog hobby has against this along with some info on what the mixed overpopulated vivs cause both outcrossed offspring along with heavy parasite loads and other possible infections. Make it sound like a puppy mill which is what it seems to be since you say he is readily selling froglets. Make it clear you and the hobby has offered free help on the matter to help better conditions and were turned down.
> 
> Michael


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## Philsuma

Chris or anyone else willing to help,

Please get me the point of contact for this museum, or the person you spoke to earlier. I'll type a letter and it will be succinct and professsional, I assure you. 

Regardless of the verbiage we use...outcrossing or any other label....

There are a lot of care and husbandry issues that need to be discussed with the caretaker of that exhibit.


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## poison beauties

Woodsman said:


> Hi Michael,
> 
> The mission of most museums is education, so I think one would have better success explaining the situation to the museum director rather than try to strong arm them. I doubt that the museum started-out with the intention of "destroying" the dart frog hobby and I think the approach you've outlined sounds pretty punative.
> 
> Just my though, Richard.


Richard,

This I do agree with as far as not trying to bully them but I took it as Chris and others have tried to go about respectfully confronting them and offering help. I do not see it as an educational issue when he is trying to sell froglets without being able to educate people on the frogs themselves. What did he call them?
Letters to the director are due in this case but if ears fall short of caring than hurting their pockets is the only way to get things changed for the best in some cases.
Id honestly rather see them give up the display due to it being too much work for them to do the right way rather than leave it as is.

Michael


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## jubjub47

poison beauties said:


> If he doesn't respond or change anything perhaps an ad in their local paper is due explaining what the frog hobby has against this along with some info on what the mixed overpopulated vivs cause both outcrossed offspring along with heavy parasite loads and other possible infections. Make it sound like a puppy mill which is what it seems to be since you say he is readily selling froglets. Make it clear you and the hobby has offered free help on the matter to help better conditions and were turned down.
> 
> Michael


I think this would more than fall short. The general public isn't going to rally around anything that isn't furry. While there are a core of local people that would care, it's probably already been seen by them. This situation is likely only going to get solved by hobbyist intervention at the museum.


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## Ed

The correct path would be to ask for the IACUC policy of the institution on the release of animals to the public. A IACUC policy is required by federal guidelines for any institutional use of animals (regardless if it is for exhibition or not). That is the point where any addressing of the situation should start. 

Ed


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## Woodsman

I remember the first time I saw poison dart frogs "in the flesh" and it was a pretty magical experience. I know that there are often very serious problems with the displays at zoos and museums and aquaria, but I think the benefits of displaying these wonderful animals to the public should never be minimized.

Perhaps we, as the hobby, should consider it our "mission" to educate and help these institutions to properly care for their collections. I think having more people be able to see these gems will only help the hobby in the long run.

Richard.



poison beauties said:


> Richard,
> 
> This I do agree with as far as not trying to bully them but I took it as Chris and others have tried to go about respectfully confronting them and offering help. I do not see it as an educational issue when he is trying to sell froglets without being able to educate people on the frogs themselves. What did he call them?
> Letters to the director are due in this case but if ears fall short of caring than hurting their pockets is the only way to get things changed for the best in some cases.
> Id honestly rather see them give up the display due to it being too much work for them to do the right way rather than leave it as is.
> 
> Michael


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## Philsuma

Woodsman said:


> I remember the first time I saw poison dart frogs "in the flesh" and it was a pretty magical experience. I know that there are often very serious problems with the displays at zoos and museums and aquaria, but I think the benefits of displaying these wonderful animals to the public should never be minimized.
> 
> Perhaps we, as the hobby, should consider it our "mission" to educate and help these institutions to properly care for their collections. I think having more people be able to see these gems will only help the hobby in the long run.
> 
> Richard.


Exactly.

We don't want that exhibit to go away and have the caretaker rebuked....we want to open up a dialogue, have the enclosure become a little more suitable and even perhaps help them open a second exhibit.


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## frogface

I would like to 'thanks' you guys but I can't. My intention would be to help them construct a better exhibit; better for the frogs and more informative for the public. I'm not looking to get them pissed off or shut down.


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## poison beauties

I hear you Richard and Phil but some places don't care and I would rather not see mismanaged viv's than to have them displayed and cared for this way which educates people in the wrong way. Its not the hobbyists that these displays mislead people to what is accepted as proper care, Maybe we as a hobby can push to help these issues go away.

Michael


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## fishr

> Hybrids are the result of two different species being bred together


In the reptile hobby, hybrids to us are when two different genuses are crossed to create hybrids. When two of the same genus but different species are bred, we call it an intergrade. Not sure if this applies to the frog hobby as well?


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## Ed

fishr said:


> In the reptile hobby, hybrids to us are when two different genuses are crossed to create hybrids. When two of the same genus but different species are bred, we call it an intergrade. Not sure if this applies to the frog hobby as well?


Actually in this case intergrades are another word for hybrids... see for one example (of many examples) 

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1440676

Ed


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## fishr

We learn something new everyday.  Thanks for the link. Reading it now.


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## Dendro Dave

Wow this sux, tragic...and they are even selling them thats really sux...ATTACK!!!  Seriously, hope people can get them to stop.


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## WendySHall

Honestly, one person writing a letter and "saying" that it was from all of us wouldn't really grab their attention, would it? Wouldn't it be more effective to have someone create the letter (offering help, of course) and then upload it here as a pdf file that we ALL could print off, sign and send in??? It would cost us each what....37 cents and a minute of our time to do? (Who knows what a stamp costs anymore!)

I just think that a flood of friendly letters would perhaps give them a bit more of a nudge.


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## JoshK

My concern is not with the mixing or selling. The selling isn't on a level of concern if this is the first we're hearing about it. My concern is that the viv is WAY under-planted to be so over crowded. Too many frogs in a poorly designed viv.


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## BOOSHIFIED

WendySHall said:


> Honestly, one person writing a letter and "saying" that it was from all of us wouldn't really grab their attention, would it? Wouldn't it be more effective to have someone create the letter (offering help, of course) and then upload it here as a pdf file that we ALL could print off, sign and send in??? It would cost us each what....37 cents and a minute of our time to do? (Who knows what a stamp costs anymore!)
> 
> I just think that a flood of *friendly* letters would perhaps give them a bit more of a nudge.


think that word is key...at least in the begining


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## WendySHall

Yes...you don't want to come off as overbearing and condescending... I would take the concerned and helpful approach and also let them know that we appreciate what they are "trying" to do.


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## markpulawski

Usually institutions have a pretty severe protocal releasing animals to anyone, including vet sign off and the like. Like Ed said have them check their rules, releasing animals to the general public should be a no-no unless they are a for profit privately held business.


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## rcteem

I believe they are not state funded which makes them a private group


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## Gumby

WendySHall said:


> I just think that a flood of friendly letters would perhaps give them a bit more of a nudge.


I agree 100%. This needs to stop. I would like to send a letter as well. They can't ignore a flood of letters!

-Chris


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## mattolsen

Don't you people have better things to do? 

I mean, I don't have, own, breed, or support hybridization. However, people and institutions are able to have different views or beliefs. They may be sending the wrong message to potential hobbyists. Although, if these hybrids stay within the confines of the zoo and get people more interested in nature then what's the harm? Don't be so selfish to think that there is only one way to do things, and that whatever belief is shared among this forum is law for everyone and anyone that keeps frogs. Do whatever you personally believe is right and inform others without the sense of self righteousness. Drama, drama, and more drama.


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## Ed

mattolsen said:


> Don't you people have better things to do?
> 
> I mean, I don't have, own, breed, or support hybridization. However, people and institutions are able to have different views or beliefs. They may be sending the wrong message to potential hobbyists. Although, if these hybrids stay within the confines of the zoo and get people more interested in nature then what's the harm? Don't be so selfish to think that there is only one way to do things, and that whatever belief is shared among this forum is law for everyone and anyone that keeps frogs. Do whatever you personally believe is right and inform others without the sense of self righteousness. Drama, drama, and more drama.


 
Did you really have to necro this thread? It had recently gone quietly to the grave..


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## Scott

Ironic statement from someone digging up a 3 month old thread.

s


mattolsen said:


> Don't you people have better things to do? ...


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## rcteem

I posted this to warn local froggers in my area...please let's dont make this a useless post...I am working with this museum now, building a new set-up, and hopefully will stop the selling of hybrid frogs...it's a tough battle though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bshmerlie

Just wanted to point one thing out that may not have been considered....this guy may be selling these frogs "on the side" without the institutions knowledge. Of course he's not going to tell you that.


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## rcteem

bshmerlie said:


> Just wanted to point one thing out that may not have been considered....this guy may be selling these frogs "on the side" without the institutions knowledge. Of course he's not going to tell you that.


No they know, it's not a state funded museum, it's a private one


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## Philsuma

Good on ya' for helping out and trying to get involved and raise awareness, Chris.

Not a waste of time in my book.


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## fleshfrombone

You could start an online petition and post it here. Easier than having a bunch of people write letters. Just write one, have us all sign it electronically and send it to them. That guy is a douche Chris, thanks for mentioning this


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## Dendro Dave

Maybe we are finally making progress if someone had to dig up this old thread to go on about how close minded we are (while ironically complaining about drama)


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## WendySHall

Ed said:


> Did you really have to necro this thread? It had recently gone quietly to the grave..


No disrespect intended...but I don't understand...

If we were unhappy with the enclosure, the mixing, and the selling of the offspring to the public...WHY are we sorry this is being brought back up? It previously ended without anyone thinking that anything had been done. Honestly, I think we should be ashamed that we totally forgot about this thread.

Although now, I must say I am happy knowing that Chris is in there working with them.


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## Ed

An action was decided upon by a number of parties, whether they followed through or not was up to them.. is there really any need to resurrect the thread just so people can put thier foot on the dead body and beat thier chest like something out of an old Tarzan show... 

Look at the thread.. here we are a number of ongoing posts after Chris lets us know he is working to resolve the problem and not to let the thread devolve into uselessness...


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## WendySHall

rcteem said:


> He seemed somewhat open but after asking around about this museum I wasn't the first person to offer help. He seems to be a person that is "If it aint broke, why fix it". Until he starts having dart frogs die he probably wont change it to much, I hope I am wrong though and will hear back from him soon.





rcteem said:


> Thats what it looks like to me too Richard. I have already addressed the director of that department about the situation and the letter isnt a bad idea either.


I'm sorry, but I went back through the threads and found the above...but didn't see any clue as to anyone working with them or trying to educate them beyond that. This led me to believe it was simply forgotten since we didn't hear about any reply from the director, etc. However, as I said...I'm glad now to know that they are working with Chris.


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## Scott Richardson

I think the whole thing is pointless. If it is a private museum, the frogs are private property. 
Getting him to listen to others would be like getting some of the members here to listen to others. And that will never happen. 

I just was gonna comment on the frogs. The gray and black cross is kinda cool looking if you look past the outbreeding.


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## earthfrog

Scott Richardson said:


> I think the whole thing is pointless. If it is a private museum, the frogs are private property.
> Getting him to listen to others would be like getting some of the members here to listen to others. And that will never happen.
> 
> I just was gonna comment on the frogs. The gray and black cross is kinda cool looking if you look past the outbreeding.





rcteem said:


> I posted this to warn local froggers in my area...please let's dont make this a useless post...I am working with this museum now, building a new set-up, and hopefully will stop the selling of hybrid frogs...it's a tough battle though.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think I'm going to vote 'glass is half full'. Some people will listen to reason.


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## frogface

Scott Richardson said:


> I think the whole thing is pointless. If it is a private museum, the frogs are private property.
> Getting him to listen to others would be like getting some of the members here to listen to others. And that will never happen.
> 
> I just was gonna comment on the frogs. The gray and black cross is kinda cool looking if you look past the outbreeding.


I believe the plan is to offer information and assistance. Help him out with tanks and frog care if he wishes. No one's going in there with guns drawn. 

Not sure where the information comes from that *"Getting him to listen to others would be like getting some of the members here to listen to others. And that will never happen."* Do you know this guy to be resistant to well meaning advice?


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## Jellyman

Anyone actually have the name of this museum?


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## earthfrog

Jellyman said:


> Anyone actually have the name of this museum?


Not I...I don't want to go and encourage someone who is selling hybrids to the public to try a mixed tank. That will make it all the more attractive to them to sell the offspring. It doesn't seem that they are a good candidate for this at this point in the game, anyway.


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## Pumilo

I don't get the concept of, "Some people don't listen so we shouldn't bother trying to educate anyone." This is an utterly ridiculous concept! Do you realize that if we all bought into that, we wouldn't have any true morphs left by now?


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## earthfrog

Pumilo said:


> I don't get the concept of, "Some people don't listen so we shouldn't bother trying to educate anyone." This is an utterly ridiculous concept! Do you realize that if we all bought into that, we wouldn't have any true morphs left by now?


I agree. IME when it comes to controversial issues, it seems that most of the respondents publically don't get or can't relate to what you're saying; however, there are a select few that really understand or at least are willing to walk in your shoes for a bit. These are generally the ones who will talk with you via PM b/c the rest of the respondents simply get in the way of understanding. This knowledge is the grain of salt that helps me at times.


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## rcteem

Pumilo said:


> I don't get the concept of, "Some people don't listen so we shouldn't bother trying to educate anyone." This is an utterly ridiculous concept! Do you realize that if we all bought into that, we wouldn't have any true morphs left by now?


Well said doug!!! I dont want to realize the name of the museum if I haven't yet...Im making head way right now and dont want to see him shut down because of being swamped and attacked by emails, letters, and phone calls. I hope you understand my stance on this as a person was just attacked on here about some hybrids that werent even theirs. If the plan fails by all means you can pm me for the info. Those of yall locally around me, be looking on the group page about this project!!! Should be really fun.


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## edwardsatc

Pumilo said:


> I don't get the concept of, "Some people don't listen so we shouldn't bother trying to educate anyone." This is an utterly ridiculous concept! Do you realize that if we all bought into that, we wouldn't have any true morphs left by now?


No kidding Doug. Gotta be one of the most ridiculous statements I've heard on here in a long time. 

If we followed that line of thought, education would be useless across the board, since there are always a few people that wouldn't listen ...


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## frogfreak

Pumilo said:


> I don't get the concept of, "Some people don't listen so we shouldn't bother trying to educate anyone." This is an utterly ridiculous concept! Do you realize that if we all bought into that, we wouldn't have any true morphs left by now?


I agree 100% Doug. I also don't know why we think people on the froum are stubborn and don't listen. There may be some, but there are more that do listen and do research than not IMO. I've learned a ton in the last couple of years!


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## Scott Richardson

frogface said:


> I believe the plan is to offer information and assistance. Help him out with tanks and frog care if he wishes. No one's going in there with guns drawn.
> 
> Not sure where the information comes from that *"Getting him to listen to others would be like getting some of the members here to listen to others. And that will never happen."* Do you know this guy to be resistant to well meaning advice?


You believe the plan is to offer advise and not go in guns blazing??? *I read--let's take a full page ad in the local paper! let's start a petition against this guy! *

That is some way to offer advise?????????????????

I am not condoning what he is doing, but I don't believe that forcing one beliefs on him until he caves is right either.


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## Scott Richardson

poison beauties said:


> If he doesn't respond or change anything perhaps an ad in their local paper is due explaining what the frog hobby has against this along with some info on what the mixed overpopulated vivs cause both outcrossed offspring along with heavy parasite loads and other possible infections. *Make it sound like a puppy mill which is what it seems to be since you say he is readily selling froglets. Make it clear you and the hobby has offered free help on the matter to help better conditions and were turned down.*Michael


Is calling the museum a PUPPY MILL in the local paper information or assistence???????????????????


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## frogface

Scott Richardson said:


> You believe the plan is to offer advise and not go in guns blazing??? *I read--let's take a full page ad in the local paper! let's start a petition against this guy! *
> 
> That is some way to offer advise?????????????????
> 
> I am not condoning what he is doing, but I don't believe that forcing one beliefs on him until he caves is right either.


I think you are confusing the denizens of the message board with the actual locals who will be participating in this project. Just because a board member suggests petitions or ads or letter writing campaigns, it does not mean that the people who are actually involved will be doing so.


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## Philsuma

Jellyman said:


> Anyone actually have the name of this museum?


 
Anyone else besides me, terrified by seeing this particular post ?


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## Woodsman

UGH!

In my opinion, time to move on. There must be something else we can all disagree about.

Richard.


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## rcteem

frogface said:


> I think you are confusing the denizens of the message board with the actual locals who will be participating in this project. Just because a board member suggests petitions or ads or letter writing campaigns, it does not mean that the people who are actually involved will be doing so.


Well said!!!


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## WendySHall

Scott Richardson said:


> You believe the plan is to offer advise and not go in guns blazing??? *I read--let's take a full page ad in the local paper! let's start a petition against this guy! *
> 
> That is some way to offer advise?????????????????
> 
> I am not condoning what he is doing, but I don't believe that forcing one beliefs on him until he caves is right either.


I did not plan on any blazing guns, newspaper ads, or petitions. I have no desire to force anything on anyone. Previously I mentioned a friendly letter...to let them know that many were concerned and offer an opportunity to educate. If it was simply let go with nothing being attempted...I think that would've been a shame. Such a place affects the thoughts of the public...and eventually future dart frog owners and breeders...and eventually all of us. However, I see that it's not needed now and am happy with the current situation.


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## rcteem

Can we please let it end and I'll keep y'all posted on what happens...don't need another 50 page thread on hybrids


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## earthfrog

rcteem said:


> Can we please let it end and I'll keep y'all posted on what happens...don't need another 50 page thread on hybrids
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I vote yes, is there a motion to second?


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## WendySHall

I'll second.


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## Scott Richardson

My comments have nothing to do with the topic of hybrids. Although I do think that frog is pretty. 

My comments are about the total disrespect that this board has become. And I was referring to the denizens of the board, not the locals. 

Bullying and name calling have nothing to do with help. 

When I first joined years ago, it was a great forum. It has really gone down hill since. 

And scaring away beginners does not help the hobby.


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## rcteem

Scott Richardson said:


> My comments have nothing to do with the topic of hybrids. Although I do think that frog is pretty.
> 
> My comments are about the total disrespect that this board has become. And I was referring to the denizens of the board, not the locals.
> 
> Bullying and name calling have nothing to do with help.
> 
> When I first joined years ago, it was a great forum. It has really gone down hill since.
> 
> And scaring away beginners does not help the hobby.


I agree that scaring away beginners doesn't help...perhaps though this needs to be carried on another thread so this one doesn't become fluff...thx


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## fleshfrombone

Philsuma said:


> Anyone else besides me, terrified by seeing this particular post ?


Seriously, like he isn't trying to make his own.


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## Terribillis

How much for the Agrejas, those are hot!


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## rcteem

Terribillis said:


> How much for the Agrejas, those are hot!


For you, I'll work a great price out with him for you...lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## earthfrog

Terribillis said:


> How much for the Agrejas, those are hot!


Agrejas breeding is egregious.


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## Terribillis

rcteem said:


> For you, I'll work a great price out with him for you...lol
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


awesome thanks man!
i have been working on some lamamelas, from those lamasi I got from you


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## earthfrog

Terribillis said:


> awesome thanks man!
> i have been working on some lamamelas, from those lamasi I got from you


Might you be interested in a _Bahama Breeze_? They are a sublime pairing of the 'fine spot' bumblebee leuc and the 'fine spot' azureus. For you, they are only $99.95.


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## Jellyman

earthfrog said:


> Might you be interested in a _Bahama Breeze_? They are a sublime pairing of the 'fine spot' bumblebee leuc and the 'fine spot' azureus. For you, they are only $99.95.


Or maybe you could put them in with your hybrid begonia's. Plants ok to ruin the genes but not the frogs right?


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## earthfrog

Jellyman said:


> Or maybe you could put them in with your hybrid begonia's. Plants ok to ruin the genes but not the frogs right?


Oh mercy. 

A begonia does not a dart frog make. 

Hybridizing begonias is above and beyond my talent, and doing so with begonias does not ruin the species due to their reproductive behavior and the inherent difficulty in creating a hybrid, MUCH unlike dart frogs. Begonias, like all plants, have specific external, physical characteristics that make it impossible to mistake a hybrid for a regular plant, to the experienced eye. 

Dart frog hybrids often may be indistinguishable from true species in some cases since the skin patterning is all that can be seen. That is why there is a danger there.

My Begonia Hybridizing primer is still for sale if you want it. That would be a more reputable avenue for you than mixing frog species, I think. 

The comparison of the two is laughable. I'm done now. 

Keep up the good work on keeping DF species separate, community.


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## Jellyman

earthfrog said:


> Oh mercy.
> 
> A begonia does not a dart frog make.
> 
> Hybridizing begonias is above and beyond my talent, and doing so with begonias does not ruin the species due to their reproductive behavior and the inherent difficulty in creating a hybrid, MUCH unlike dart frogs. Begonias, like all plants, have specific external, physical characteristics that make it impossible to mistake a hybrid for a regular plant, to the experienced eye.
> 
> Dart frog hybrids often may be indistinguishable from true species in some cases since the skin patterning is all that can be seen. That is why there is a danger there.
> 
> My Begonia Hybridizing primer is still for sale if you want it. That would be a more reputable avenue for you than mixing frog species, I think.
> 
> The comparison of the two is laughable. I'm done now.
> 
> Keep up the good work on keeping DF species separate, community.


What is laughable is that is ok to feed mutated fruit flies and decorate with hybrid plant species but heaven forbid we have a hybrid frog. 

How are hybrids working out for the identification of orchid species?


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## fleshfrombone

I didn't realize we were in the fruit fly and plant hobby. I was under the impression that this was about the frog hobby and the other two were byproducts of dart frog husbandry. What is laughable is you don't get it.


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## earthfrog

Jellyman said:


> What is laughable is that is ok to feed mutated fruit flies and decorate with hybrid plant species but heaven forbid we have a hybrid frog.
> 
> How are hybrids working out for the identification of orchid species?


Maybe if you stand back and consider your argument, even pretend you didn't just write it, you can see how damning it looks for hybrid _anything_, most especially dart frogs...

Can we let this thread alone now...?

Chris you rock! Keep up the good work.


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## Jellyman

fleshfrombone said:


> I didn't realize we were in the fruit fly and plant hobby. I was under the impression that this was about the frog hobby and the other two were byproducts of dart frog husbandry. What is laughable is you don't get it.


So everything else is fair game? Well as long as the frogs are pure.


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## fleshfrombone

Uh.... Yeah. Obviously.


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## Sabotage

stemcellular said:


> yeah, sadly the frogs in the NE exhibit are in pretty poor shape. Check out the exhibit at the Calif. Academy of Sciences in San Fran next time you are out that way, they are in fine shape.


My friend is a biologist at the SF Academy of Sciences (the person who got me into PDF hobby). He doesn't even work with the frogs, but he is more learned than most about them. You can tell when he talks about the frogs that the people who do care for them care about their well being and sustainability.


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## frogparty

Jellyman said:


> What is laughable is that is ok to feed mutated fruit flies and decorate with hybrid plant species but heaven forbid we have a hybrid frog.
> 
> How are hybrids working out for the identification of orchid species?


Hybrid orchids are not valuable UNLESS the proper identification and clone name of the parents is known. Natural hybrids are more confusing than man made hybrids. 
Individual orchids can live a hundred years, and provide pollen or seed every single year. You can maintain it as a species through division or meristem cloning, true breed with the same species, AND create hybrids of known ancestry every year. Can't ahieve all that with dart frogs, where individuals valuable to the gene pool might not ever provide more than a handful of successful offspring.


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## Scott

Since the original purpose of the thread has been satisfied ...

And in attempt to preempt another flame war ...

I hereby CLOSE this thread.

s


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