# Any dart frogs that like cold temps?



## instantramen125 (May 24, 2021)

Hi, very very new to dart frogs. I have a 20 gal terrarium where I grow cool growing orchids and other small plants. Daytime temps are about 75 F, nighttime is about 60. Are there any frog species that would thrive in these temps? Thanks!


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## fishingguy12345 (Apr 7, 2019)

Hello, I'll answer your question with this: my frog room averages 65F in the winter, the tanks themselves are a bit warmer on the inside from the lighting but not much warmer than that.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Have you taken any temperature readings at substrate level during the coldest periods? Leaf litter, soils, substrates, and accumulated water in a drainage layer will all act as thermal mass that will resist temperature swings for a longer period than air. It's possible that there are places in the vivarium that will not drop as low as 60*F in your situation.


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## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Just an aside, as an orchid/rare plant grower who does not keep frogs: a tank set up for frogs has very different requirements and aesthetics than a tank set up for orchids, and 20 gallons is a pretty small amount of space in which to attempt both.

Please take a look at some of the frog tanks made by experienced members here - how sparse the plantings are, the forest floor covered in leaf litter rather than moss or plants, the exposed branches - and decide if you can provide that ideal environment for frogs while still preserving your plantings. It’s certainly possible, but I know in my case my plants are _dense_ because I have packed as many species as I can into my space, and my tank would be entirely unsuitable for frogs.


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## SilverShaded (Apr 2, 2018)

Yes, Epipedobates anthonyi will take down to 10C possibly as low as 7C overnight as long as daytime is warmer. Tadpoles also survive at these temperatures but obviously take a very long time to grow. Ideal summer temperatures are around 15-25C night to day, winter cooler.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I would regularly let my anthonyi get around 60 degrees F in the winter, I purposely kept them in the basement because I heard they preferred cooler temperatures.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A "hobby" default exists more tied into hobbiests lack of ability to control temperature and lack of confidence with equipments than what is a true reflective of preferred optimum gradient zones.
The sad part is canonization of less skilled pluralistic opinion

Unfortunate for the frogs.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

A "hobby" default exists more tied into hobbiests lack of ability to control temperature and lack of confidence with equipments than what is a true reflective of preferred optimum gradient zones.
The sad part is canonization of less skilled pluralistic opinion

Unfortunate for the frogs.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The result is an animal living their entire lives in the lower spectrum of temperature zone - and that becoming a canonized "care sheet" pluralistic recomendation.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

While I definitely would agree our frogs are more tolerant of a wider variety of temperatures we give them credit for, since we're keeping them in glass boxes with often times little ventilation and no other variables like a gradient from a canopy layer to the edge of a cooler forest stream, I would have to say what is often canon is likely the safer route. I rarely worry about my frogs experiencing colder temperatures (heck, I wouldn't have had such success in the past with breeding mantellas if I didn't have a basement) and intentionally subject them to it, but temperatures above 78 degrees for longer stretches of time I start to panic, particularly with mantellas. However, and the threads still might be there, but there are some people who had pumilio and auratus experience temperatures in the 90s for a few days without losses. I have heard though more than one person lose terribilis above 80 degrees.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Good points, though I'll add that persistent lower temps often motivate many species of darts to hide for extended periods, with all the negative effects that can have on frogs and the stress on their keepers.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

The other big problem with the "standard" temp recommendations is that we're talking about a family of organisms that spans half a continent. There is no one-sized fits all. As someone who has caught multiple reticulata in the wild, let me just tell you that it is hot as all f&@K where they are found, and the idea that temps above 80 could be "dangerous" for them is laughable. I think temps _below_ 80 are almost certainly suboptimal for retics. Just as an example.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

npaull said:


> As someone who has caught multiple reticulata in the wild, let me just tell you that it is hot as all f&@K where they are found, and the idea that temps above 80 could be "dangerous" for them is laughable.


Darts (generally; there are certainly species differences like you mention) routinely die in captivity from temps they would tolerate in the wild. There are differences in other parameters (air movement is likely the crucial one) and microclimate choices (wild frogs can move to cooler areas at ground level at will, whereas frogs in a cubic meter of ExoTerra cannot) that make their tolerances for captive conditions lower than in the wild. 

This phenomenon is known for other parameters with other herp species. Running wild levels of moisture for many snake species, for example, leads fairly reliably to RIs and skin rot. Captivity isn't simply a copy of wild conditions.

It isn't "laughable" at all to make very conservative husbandry recommendations on a forum that will be read by keepers of sometimes very basic skill levels.


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

Just some anecdotal observations from my collection which is varied consisting of phyllobates, tincs, auratus, leucs, oopaga, and adelphobates.

In the summer even with my frogroom AC on full blast my tanks that are the highest on my rack will routinely reach up to 85. However, being that I live in Los Angeles my average indoor humidity is quite low around 40% or less, often times as low as 20%. I have a good portion of their tanks ventilated with screens like most here, I think this provides a good amount of evaporative cooling which keeps the frogs comfortable despite the higher temp range. I have observed a notable increase in their overall activity and foraging behavior when the temps are on this higher range. I also get almost all of my breeding during this season. When Los Angeles "winter" comes my temps drop to around 60 to 65 during the day and the internal temp of the same tanks usually hover around 72. The frogs seem fine in this range as well, but they are noticeably out less and do not breed for me at all during the winter months despite all other variables being the same such as misting, feeding, and lighting schedules.

As mentioned in the above posts, I don't think one temp fits all. The greater local climate and indoor climate will greatly effect what is ideal for any given area. The general rule should always lean towards the safer known temps especially for newer keepers, and with experience they can slowly adjust to their individual needs.


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## npaull (May 8, 2005)

> It isn't "laughable" at all to make very conservative husbandry recommendations on a forum that will be read by keepers of sometimes very basic skill levels.


I don't think differentiating temperature requirements for different species is any harder for new keepers than understanding that, for example, terribilis can eat bigger food than retics, but I see where you're coming from. I think my comment stands as a criticism of the blanket statement "temps for dart frogs should be in the 70s." That's as silly as saying "temps for snakes should be in the 80s."

Regardless, I think most dart frogs are kept too cold. Probably this stems from difficulty with maintaining high humidity in concert with higher temps, which has led to historically bad outcomes with temps on the higher end. Warm, wet, AND ventilated is a hard parameter to maintain and stabilize, so trial and error has settled on cooler temps. I think the general solution to this is less _ventilation,_ more _circulation_, and raising room temps where possible while using low-heat light (ie LED). Of course, not everyone has a dedicated room for frogs to mess with the background temp. I suspect a background temp of high 70s-low 80s is probably closer to correct as a "general" statement, but even then I wonder for certain species like pumilio and retics, which I really think require higher temps to thrive, particularly as froglets.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

npaull said:


> I don't think differentiating temperature requirements for different species is any harder for new keepers than understanding that, for example, terribilis can eat bigger food than retics, but I see where you're coming from. I think my comment stands as a criticism of the blanket statement "temps for dart frogs should be in the 70s." That's as silly as saying "temps for snakes should be in the 80s."
> 
> Regardless, I think most dart frogs are kept too cold. Probably this stems from difficulty with maintaining high humidity in concert with higher temps, which has led to historically bad outcomes with temps on the higher end. Warm, wet, AND ventilated is a hard parameter to maintain and stabilize, so trial and error has settled on cooler temps. I think the general solution to this is less _ventilation,_ more _circulation_, and raising room temps where possible while using low-heat light (ie LED). Of course, not everyone has a dedicated room for frogs to mess with the background temp. I suspect a background temp of high 70s-low 80s is probably closer to correct as a "general" statement, but even then I wonder for certain species like pumilio and retics, which I really think require higher temps to thrive, particularly as froglets.


Why are they kept too cold?

If they are active, breeding and healthy in the mid-70's, what is wrong with keeping them at that temperature?

Sometimes animals exist in the wild in certain areas because they can tolerate certain extremes - it doesn't mean they are ideal. Trying to replicate those extremes, or anywhere near them in captivity can be dangerous.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I understand your stance too, @npauli, even if I disagree with some of the details. 

Oh, and this isn't a fair analogy:



npaull said:


> I think my comment stands as a criticism of the blanket statement "temps for dart frogs should be in the 70s." That's as silly as saying "temps for snakes should be in the 80s."


Comparing a fairly homogeneous family with about 30 genera from barely two continents to a worldwide suborder with 500+ genera isn't fair at all. A closer analogy would be "ambient temps for pythons should be about 80 F" which is really close to accurate, with about as few exceptions as there are for dendrobatids.

Part of the broad generalizations is a fatigue response. Often enough, mentioning the exceptions gets missed -- can't see the trees for the forest, I guess.

Putting together a list of darts organized by temperature preferences might be a useful project that could be referred to in cases like this one.


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