# Are orchids particularly difficult? Would you recommend them to a newbie who has never grown orchids?



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

I saw some orchids while I was shopping for plants last night that were very small and very beautiful. I didn't buy any because I have heard orchid care is really hard. Also, the tag on the plant said something like "I need 1 ice cube a week" so I thought maybe they couldn't handle a humid vivarium? But then I saw that a lot of people here grow orchids just fine in their vivariums.

How difficult would you say it is to grow orchids? Also, I heard they are like broms and that they don't go in the abg mix like some other plants but instead are mounted on wood.


----------



## Fahad (Aug 25, 2019)

There are orchid forums just like this frog forum where you can learn the ins and outs from seasoned growers.  -- I say that because different species, even within the same genus, have different requirements and varying degrees of difficulty based on the altitude they evolved in, moisture requirements, day-night temperatures, seasonal dormancy, etc.

The very few I use are considered 'beginner' species and are generally labeled as 'intermediate-warm' or tolerate a wide range of conditions -- they do well mounted in the conditions my vivaria provide and aren't constantly wet, given sufficient air movement etc. Lighting matters too, of course.

Not all orchids are difficult, but you need to know what you're buying, the conditions inside your vivarium, and be prepared to move them around a bit inside to find a spot that works. I'm pretty sure @Harpspiel knows *a lot* more about it than I do, maybe they can advise. My only accomplishment is not murdering the ones I selected, so that's setting the bar a bit low. 😬


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I've grown "potted" orchids -- mini _Cattleya_ hybrids, mostly -- for a dozen or so years; my wife grows _Paphiopedilum_ and _Oncidium. _I've grown houseplants for decades, and I find orchids distinctly more challenging (even though I'm growing easy stuff). I find growing orchids in frog vivs even more challenging (I'm optimizing for frogs, and anything that doesn't like that is going to die), and somewhat pointless since orchids don't provide any distinct benefit for frogs (their leaf shapes are mostly not useful for frogs). 

As with all these mashups, I'd suggest learning how to care for frogs and orchids first, separately, and then if you see a reason and a way to combine them, go for it. There is a moderately steep learning curve on each. 

But, yeah, I also defer to @Harpspiel in all things orchid.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I've grown "potted" orchids -- mini _Cattleya_ hybrids, mostly -- for a dozen or so years; my wife grows _Paphiopedilum_ and _Oncidium. _I've grown houseplants for decades, and I find orchids distinctly more challenging (even though I'm growing easy stuff). I find growing orchids in frog vivs even more challenging (I'm optimizing for frogs, and anything that doesn't like that is going to die), and somewhat pointless since orchids don't provide any distinct benefit for frogs (their leaf shapes are mostly not useful for frogs).
> 
> As with all these mashups, I'd suggest learning how to care for frogs and orchids first, separately, and then if you see a reason and a way to combine them, go for it. There is a moderately steep learning curve on each.
> 
> But, yeah, I also defer to @Harpspiel in all things orchid.


Thank you! I might try growing some orchids separately then because I think they're lovely but I will avoid putting them in my viv, at least for now.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Fahad said:


> There are orchid forums just like this frog forum where you can learn the ins and outs from seasoned growers.  -- I say that because different species, even within the same genus, have different requirements and varying degrees of difficulty based on the altitude they evolved in, moisture requirements, day-night temperatures, seasonal dormancy, etc.
> 
> The very few I use are considered 'beginner' species and are generally labeled as 'intermediate-warm' or tolerate a wide range of conditions -- they do well mounted in the conditions my vivaria provide and aren't constantly wet, given sufficient air movement etc. Lighting matters too, of course.
> 
> Not all orchids are difficult, but you need to know what you're buying, the conditions inside your vivarium, and be prepared to move them around a bit inside to find a spot that works. I'm pretty sure @Harpspiel knows *a lot* more about it than I do, maybe they can advise. My only accomplishment is not murdering the ones I selected, so that's setting the bar a bit low. 😬


lol Thank you for the advice! I appreciate your help.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Nepenthesx said:


> I saw some orchids while I was shopping for plants last night that were very small and very beautiful. I didn't buy any because I have heard orchid care is really hard. Also, the tag on the plant said something like "I need 1 ice cube a week" so I thought maybe they couldn't handle a humid vivarium? But then I saw that a lot of people here grow orchids just fine in their vivariums.
> 
> How difficult would you say it is to grow orchids? Also, I heard they are like broms and that they don't go in the abg mix like some other plants but instead are mounted on wood.


The “ice cube” orchid you’re referring to is a mini Phalaenopsis hybrid. And that’s terrible watering advice but that’s another subject. I don’t get along with Phals too well, I am growing one species in my tank at the moment and I wouldn’t say it’s thriving, but my understanding is that most tanks will be a little too consistently wet for Phals. The orchids that tend to be easy and do well in dart frog tanks are warm-growing pleurothallids, which ironically are renowned for being difficult outside of a tank. If you want to try an orchid, I’d recommend researching and buying a (warmth-tolerant) Restrepia, they tend to be relatively tough as pleurothallids go and aren’t hard to find. I would say _Lepanthopsis astrophora_ because it’s “easy” and I adore it, but it can be hard to source for some reason.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> The “ice cube” orchid you’re referring to is a mini Phalaenopsis hybrid. And that’s terrible watering advice but that’s another subject. I don’t get along with Phals too well, I am growing one species in my tank at the moment and I wouldn’t say it’s thriving, but my understanding is that most tanks will be a little too consistently wet for Phals. The orchids that tend to be easy and do well in dart frog tanks are warm-growing pleurothallids, which ironically are renowned for being difficult outside of a tank. If you want to try an orchid, I’d recommend researching and buying a (warmth-tolerant) Restrepia, they tend to be relatively tough as pleurothallids go and aren’t hard to find. I would say _Lepanthopsis astrophora_ because it’s “easy” and I adore it, but it can be hard to source for some reason.


I just looked up Restrepia and they are adorable little things. Thank you for the advice!


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Oh and I would let things grow in for a while and let the initial fungus and mold bloom pass. I just lost a Masdevallia to what I suspect was a persistent fungal infection it picked up from the initial fungal bloom in my tank, and I have a few other orchids that aren’t thriving possibly for the same reason. Give it a few months and make sure your other plants are thriving before springing for that orchid.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Harpspiel said:


> Oh and I would let things grow in for a while and let the initial fungus and mold bloom pass. I just lost a Masdevallia to what I suspect was a persistent fungal infection it picked up from the initial fungal bloom in my tank, and I have a few other orchids that aren’t thriving possibly for the same reason. Give it a few months and make sure your other plants are thriving before springing for that orchid.


Oh that's a good idea. I heard orchids can be pretty expensive.


----------



## JasonE (Feb 7, 2011)

I'm having a lot of success with restrepia cymbula. It does well in warmer temps (78-80) and doesn't mind being wet as long as the leaves can dry. I keep it in the driest corner of my tank near the back vent. I've consistently have flowers and I've got a couple of keikis that I'll be able to mount soon.

I agree that you should let your tank run for a month before you try adding an orchid.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

JasonE said:


> I'm having a lot of success with restrepia cymbula. It does well in warmer temps (78-80) and doesn't mind being wet as long as the leaves can dry. I keep it in the driest corner of my tank near the back vent. I've consistently have flowers and I've got a couple of keikis that I'll be able to mount soon.
> 
> I agree that you should let your tank run for a month before you try adding an orchid.
> View attachment 300351
> View attachment 300352


Oh your orchids are so pretty! They look like little slippers! Thank you for the advice


----------



## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

I’m an orchid newbie and I put a few in my tank a couple months ago, a while into the tank cycling and just before adding in the frogs. They're neither noticeably dying nor thriving… but I will warn you, my frogs have been kind of trampling one of them! It’s hanging in, but placement is something to carefully consider (besides for temp, light, humidity, and air flow needs—frog traffic). Which can be tricky to predict. I had no idea that would be such a preferred corner to hang out.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Lovelyk said:


> I’m an orchid newbie and I put a few in my tank a couple months ago, a while into the tank cycling and just before adding in the frogs. They're neither noticeably dying nor thriving… but I will warn you, my frogs have been kind of trampling one of them! It’s hanging in, but placement is something to carefully consider (besides for temp, light, humidity, and air flow needs—frog traffic). Which can be tricky to predict. I had no idea that would be such a preferred corner to hang out.


In a vivarium is there a way to tell which areas the frogs will use the most before you get them? Or does it just mean arboreal/terrestrial? Thank you for your advice, I will keep that in mind


----------



## Lovelyk (Feb 7, 2021)

Nepenthesx said:


> In a vivarium is there a way to tell which areas the frogs will use the most before you get them? Or does it just mean arboreal/terrestrial? Thank you for your advice, I will keep that in mind


Well there is generally knowing which types of space (terrestrial, arboreal) frogs use, but I guess I meant in terms of nooks and crannies. This is a close up screen shot, pre-frog of the trampled orchid. They like to use it as an extra outcrop off the tree fern panel ledge (and the ledge is one of the frogs’ main spot in general). They also use it to climb onto the ledge and jump up onto the fan. Whole tank and one of them likes to climb up onto the fan, silly guy. 🤷🏻‍♀️


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Lovelyk said:


> Well there is generally knowing which types of space (terrestrial, arboreal) frogs use, but I guess I meant in terms of nooks and crannies. This is a close up screen shot, pre-frog of the trampled orchid. They like to use it as an extra outcrop off the tree fern panel ledge (and the ledge is one of the frogs’ main spot in general). They also use it to climb onto the ledge and jump up onto the fan. Whole tank and one of them likes to climb up onto the fan, silly guy. 🤷🏻‍♀️
> View attachment 300354


Oh how neat! What a silly little frog


----------



## Anda (Jan 18, 2020)

Maybe this could be turned around completely. There are hundreds, if not thousands of orchids that thrive in 80% humidity, around 20-25 degrees and with good ventilation or air movement. Aren't these the ideal conditions for most dart frogs? Given sufficient light, if these orchids keep dying off, maybe the conditions (in a theoretical terrarium) are not ideal for the frogs either?


----------



## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Anda said:


> Maybe this could be turned around completely. There are hundreds, if not thousands of orchids that thrive in 80% humidity, around 20-25 degrees and with good ventilation or air movement. Aren't these the ideal conditions for most dart frogs? Given sufficient light, if these orchids keep dying off, maybe the conditions (in a theoretical terrarium) are not ideal for the frogs either?


A simple answer is that the microhabitat of many of those plants (canopy, or at least exposed surface) is different than that of the frogs (within a meter of the ground, except for occasional excursions). Environmental parameters, and the daily variance of those parameters, are different in each, and many orchids seem to be quite a bit less tolerant of deviations from their ideal parameters than are many other vivarium plants. 

Providing actually distinct microhabitats in a couple cubic feet of glass box isn't at all straightforward (hence the hurdle for novice keepers). Without a lot of attention to viv design -- guided by experience with all the organisms that will be housed in it -- balancing even something as simple as the moisture needs of a viv that should get an overall drying out each evening with an orchid that needs a little water in the evening is simply complication without benefit to the primary inhabitants. 

There are quite a few keepers who have kept darts with many orchids very successfully. I don't think any of them were novice keepers of both the plants and the frogs.


----------



## Anda (Jan 18, 2020)

My point was, novice or not, if you follow the instructions and create a proper PDF vivarium, you have automatically made it suitable for a range of really nice orchids. No need for extra microhabitats and no need to make it difficult.


----------



## Harpspiel (Jan 18, 2015)

Anda said:


> My point was, novice or not, if you follow the instructions and create a proper PDF vivarium, you have automatically made it suitable for a range of really nice orchids. No need for extra microhabitats and no need to make it difficult.


Sort of. You will still likely need to move the orchid around a bit in the enclosure to find the perfect spot, and having orchid growing experience could go a long way to diagnosing issues. But like I said, pleurothallids tend to work well in dart frog conditions as a group.

Orchids with pseudobulbs tend to want a distinct wet/dry cycle, which I can provide in my tank with an automated misting system by misting lightly multiple times a day and then deeply twice a week. But then I don’t keep dart frogs, and I have a pretty extreme humidity stratification from bottom to top of my tank (85% at the bottom to 30% at the top) so I have a variety of microclimates that stay wetter or drier. You could mimic this in a dart frog enclosure but it might get more complicated to dial in just the right misting amount for both frogs and orchids...pleurothallids, which want a constant moisture level, seem like a safer bet.


----------



## eMCRay (Mar 24, 2020)

Agree with what everyone has said here - a lot depends on the size of your tank, but most orchids are very susceptible to fungus / rot. Meaning that you need to make sure they can dry out on occasion (at a bare minimum the leaves).

I've had good success with Paphs (including Rothschildianum in my larger builds), most South American species (e.g. Peristeria) as well as Bulbophyllums (wetter dart tanks) and Phals and Vandas (for drier and arboreal vivs).


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Wow orchids sound really complicated, thank you for all of your help. I really appreciate all of the info and before I get orchids I want to learn a lot about them. It's important to me to keep living creatures and plants well and make sure they are well taken care of.


----------



## Anda (Jan 18, 2020)

It is unfortunate that you got that impression from this thread. There are 25-30 000 different species of orchids. Some are virtually impossible to grow artificially, but a whole lot of them are easy to keep in terrariums. I don't think I'm supposed to name vendors here, but there is an American company that currently has 7 000 different species for sale, I bet they could advice you on a few beginner-terrarium species. 
If you like vine-type orchids try _Vanilla planifolia, _it loves terrariums and you can get one (a cutling) really cheap. It needs to reach a certain size to bloom. Meanwhile it grows fast and is very decorative.


----------



## Nepenthesx (Jun 4, 2021)

Anda said:


> It is unfortunate that you got that impression from this thread. There are 25-30 000 different species of orchids. Some are virtually impossible to grow artificially, but a whole lot of them are easy to keep in terrariums. I don't think I'm supposed to name vendors here, but there is an American company that currently has 7 000 different species for sale, I bet they could advice you on a few beginner-terrarium species.
> If you like vine-type orchids try _Vanilla planifolia, _it loves terrariums and you can get one (a cutling) really cheap. It needs to reach a certain size to bloom. Meanwhile it grows fast and is very decorative.
> 
> View attachment 300412


I had no idea you could buy climbing orchids like that! It's so cool! I might join an orchid forum. I used to be really into carnivorous plants (hence my username having Nepenthes in it) Unfortunately after a surprise move that I had to do quickly I lost all of my little plant babies. Nepenthes are my favorites. A lot of people say that carnivorous plants are complicated too but if you learn how to care for them and everything first it's pretty simple to keep most species alive. I appreciate you letting me know it doesn't have to be complicated. I really miss my plant collection =( In addition to my carnivorous plants I had houseplants of many types in all of my windows and the place looked like a greenhouse because it was mostly just a glass box I was living in instead of a house! LOL that's how many windows I had. 

I don't have access to much light from windows in the current place that I live. Here there are basically no windows and we have cats now so that really cuts down on the places we can sit plants. I do have a small growlight set up though for a couple african violets and a Jade. I'm happy those plants have been doing very well.

I never got into orchids before though, perhaps now is a good time to start learning how to take care of them and maybe I can add them to my vivariums one day. Thank you!


----------



## DendroJoris (Apr 13, 2021)

If you have experience with nepenthes, you probably wont have much problems with most species of orchids.

I find my nepenthes much harder than my orchids.


----------



## TeddytheFinger (May 8, 2019)

I bought a bunch, with no experience, and I haven't lost any...well...except my jewel orchid, but my mini and micros seem to be doing great.


----------

