# Paleo Viv Concept Thread



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*Paleo Viv Concept Thread*

I have a notion in mind to build a setup to showcase ancient groups of plants and animals. I haven't picked out a particular era or epoch to try to represent, but it would need to be a period not so far in the distant past becuase I would want to incorporate some diversity of fossil plant group that still have some extant representatives.

There are some really great plant possibilities...


cycads
various gymnosperm trees; _A Wollemia_ would be really cool.
other weird gymnosperms (e.g., _Gnetum_)
the oldest magnoliids (e.g., _Magnolia_)
the oldest monocots (e.g., _Pandanus_)
other weird old angiosperms (e.g., _Ascarina_)
horsetails
ferns
mosses, liverworts

I would do this as a forest floor kind of setup mainly because it would make the plants easier to manage. The 65G that I made for a Hyla tree frog might be a good model for the basic setup...










That viv incorporates a shadowbox background that I made with a photo image. A diorama/terrarium construction like this would be fun because I could include other elements of ancient environments (e.g., dinosaurs?). 

I gotta run right now but I will jot down more ideas later on. I have a couple of ideas for animals to include.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's another quick note.

Wow! This plant is apparently the sister group to all other angiosperms...

Google: _Amborella trichopoda_

It's apparently around in horticulture too. That would be a great one to go after.

...another quick link...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Amborella+trichopoda&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=fCZhT5LtH8zkggeQ8-WjCA&biw=1100&bih=611&sei=hCZhT77oM_GK0QGZ6JjZBw


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## ClintonJ (May 11, 2009)

Seems like not many of these plants have "mini" varieties. Would you just bonsai the plants that you plan to use? Could be a cool viv for sure. Sounds like a museum piece if done right.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

There are some pretty cool cycads that grow to only 12" or 18" tall, and they would take a long time to get that big. There are lots of different possibilites for ferns. I imagine using a nice cycad as a centerpiece plant with ferns or maybe a larger _Magnolia_ in the background, and then keep various of those trees and shrubs as foreground plants and trimmed to keep them seedling sized.

This might take me a long time to put this together, but many of these plants are rare in horticulture and I might only find them as seeds, if at all. I could start hunting and germinating seeds right away.


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

as far as animals, what about something weird like a couple of tropical vinagaroons. Alternately, you could just pick up a tuatara at the local herp show...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's a Wikipedia figure showing one proposed scheme for plant group relationships...

File:Seed plants evolutionary relationships with Amborella highlighted.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia









Water lilies and the Austrobaileyales (star anise) are also very old, basal groups.


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## chillplants (Jul 14, 2008)

Lol, that looks like something straight out of my Botany II lecture slides. I thought about doing something very similar using mosses, liverworts and ferns.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

They have several different _Chloranthus_ at PlantDelights.com...

Chloranthus sessilifolius is a Chinese shade perennial plant-Plant Delights Nursery, Inc.

They are all described as hardy to Zone 5 or 6, which makes me suspect they have a strong winter dormancy cycle and might not be so good in a terrarium.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

winstonamc said:


> as far as animals, what about something weird like a couple of tropical vinagaroons. Alternately, you could just pick up a tuatara at the local herp show...


Here are some animal ideas that I had...


a tarantula
vinegaroon or something like that
large stick insect; _Extatosoma tiaratum_ apparently available in the hobby in Europe, but not here(?).
a basal lizard such as _Oplurus_, don't know if this one is around in the trade(?)


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

RarePalmSeeds.com has some _Gnetum_ seeds...

Gnetum gnemon var. gnemon

...just forty bucks for ten seeds.


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## PoisonFrog (Jan 27, 2012)

hydrophyte said:


> Here are some animal ideas that I had...
> 
> 
> a tarantula
> ...


Or maybe a giant millepede!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh yeah that's an idea too.

Or how about a Mitchell's diurnal cockroach?

Google: _Polyzosteria mitchelli_

That looks like it could be a cool display animal. Too bad we can't get it here.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

They have a star anise at Plant Delights too...

Illicium parviflorum Florida Sunshine, Anise, Perennial, Nat-Plant Delights Nursery, Inc.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

for the magnolia type plant you could go with a mitchellia. i think you could probably keep it at a reasonable size if kept potbound and trimmed. i have done a similar themed tank accidentally with a neglected reef. nothing like all cyanobacteria to take you back in time.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's a conifer with very broad leaves like some of the fossils that I have seen...

Google: _Nageia nagi_ 

They have that one at RarepalmSeeds.com too.

Here's a blog by a gardener and paleontologist in England who keeps a collection of prehistoric plants as nice patio specimens...

We're Going To Need A Bigger Pot


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## Bearo (Oct 21, 2011)

Great idea! 

How about some ant fern, like Lecanopteris ?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I imagined this setup as having mainly terrestrial plants. Maybe I could plant an ant fern or other epiphytes on the side of a tree stump feature. There are a lot of fern possibilities to consider, but I think I will shoot for some ferns that are characteristic fossil groups.

_Cyrtomium_ holly fern, which is a terrestrial, looks like a prehistoric plant, but I don't know about its fossil/evolutionary history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cyrtomium_falcatum2.jpg


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This place specializes in smaller cycads. 

Plants for sale - Jurassic Plants Nursery

They are in Canada, so I wouldn't be able to order from them, but their list is good for reference.

Here's an article at DavesGarden.com by palmbob (he contributes a lot of cool articles there) all about_ Zamia_ spp. ...

http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/2422/


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Another tree that's a little more clear...

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/supplementary/1471-2229-8-59-s5.jpeg


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I could not resist. I found this _Zamia_ pretty cheap on ebay and jumped for it...

Zamia vazquezii LIVE CYCAD PLANT!! These are 18-24" tall!! | eBay

That plant will grow up largish with leaves to 1m long. I hope that I can keep it smaller by trimming it back and underpotting it. If not then I can try to just keep it as a houseplant.

Cycads are magnets for scale and mealybugs. So long as I keep everything clean it should be OK.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Pretty cheap _Illicium_...

Illicium floridanum Florida Anise Native Plant


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Are there tree fern species that stay under two feet? If so, that'd look great. 

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Oh yes definitely _Blechnum_ spp. are dwarf tree ferns and very attractive too.

I have _B. brasiliense_.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

One of these "dinosaur size" cones from Coulter pine (_Pinus coulteri_) could make a nice feature in a setup like this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Crw_1691-web.jpg









These things are huge, as big as a loaf of bread. 

Do you think that something like this would create trouble with volatile fumes the way that pine sawdust does?


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

For livestock, I would concentrate on animals that have changed very little.....tropical scorpions like Centroides.... millipedes, roaches, centipedes, thousand leggers, harvestmen.....esp if you also had a water feature with water insects in it.

Maybe some sort of weird primitive salamander or newt....

Or really cool but probably unattainable: Onychophora aka Velvet worms!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah I think that I will just use invertebrates in this setup. I wonder if with careful planning I might be able to get away with a community setup with two or three different species.

A lot of the best arthropods are nocturnal and will just hide all day long. It's too bad we can't keep phasmids because a giant walking stick would be a cool display animal.

I saw pictures of a really nice planted viv with an Onychophora. They found that a rich and diverse planted setup was the best way to keep them healthy.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just opened my copy of this book that I got a few years ago...

Evolution of the Insects (Cambridge Evolution Series): David Grimaldi, Michael S. Engel: 9780521821490: Amazon.com: Books

...such cool stuff in here. I am inspired to make this display idea interpret the fossil history of insects.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I found several _Podocarpus_ right here....

Tropical Plant List P

Stuff is always cheap there at GlassHouseWorks.com, and great if they ever get around to shipping your order.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

So what do you think about including two or three of these huge Coulter's pine cones to my 30G setup?...

coulter pine cone | eBay

I want to keep roaches and/or mantids in there. Will I into trouble with volatile chemicals from these pine cones? The setup is going to to be mostly closed up, humid and with a fan blowing inside.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I know people that sell and breed velvet worms


QUOTE=JoshH;710404]For livestock, I would concentrate on animals that have changed very little.....tropical scorpions like Centroides.... millipedes, roaches, centipedes, thousand leggers, harvestmen.....esp if you also had a water feature with water insects in it.

Maybe some sort of weird primitive salamander or newt....

Or really cool but probably unattainable: Onychophora aka Velvet worms![/QUOTE]


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Boy that sure would be cool to track down and Onycophora.

I am going through the Exotic Angel plant catalog and picking out a few of these commercially-available ferns that might be good choices...


Exotic Angel Plants® - Pteris Tricolor
Exotic Angel Plants® - Silver Lady
Exotic Angel Plants® - Mahogany
Exotic Angel Plants® - Maiden Hair
Exotic Angel Plants® - Medusa
Exotic Angel Plants® - Maiden Hair Fritz Luthii
Exotic Angel Plants® - Aglaomorpha
Exotic Angel Plants® - Lemon Button

I think that most of these are terrestrials and I also selected these among the list there on the website based on size and growth habit and texture.

Wow there are some pretty cool ferns on this page...

http://www.heatonsferns.com.au/mixed_thumbnails.htm

Too bad that nursery is in Australia. That _Doryopteris_ hand fern is cool and has the appearance of a primitive plant.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I found another roach source. This guy has a lot of different species.

Home - Roach Crossing


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## PatEmig09 (Oct 13, 2009)

Wow, picture perfect.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

hydrophyte said:


> I could not resist. I found this _Zamia_ pretty cheap on ebay and jumped for it...
> 
> Zamia vazquezii LIVE CYCAD PLANT!! These are 18-24" tall!! | eBay
> 
> ...


Sorry to be a little late to this thread. Zamia vazquezii will need very bright light to keep the leaves compact. I have specimens in the garden that are under two layers of canopy with leaves over 4' long. The most compact specimens are growing at one of my clients' property--they receive 3-4 hours of direct sun daily and are producing leaves about 16" in length. Restricting root mass on cycads really doesn't reduce leaf size. 

Your best bet would be a small specimen of Zamia pumilla, which is native to FL. They will handle high humidity, and stay fairly compact even in deep shade. I have specimens with 6"+ caudices that produce leaves under 2' even in deep shade (multiple layers of overhead canopy). 

For a Magnoliaceae tree, look at Michelia figo. They lend themselves nicely to potted cultivation, and will flower as 12" tall plants. (the flowers smell like Banana liqueur). This plant will require a cool/dry cycle to flower.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks! Those are great tips. I should try to get a couple of _Z. pumila_. They aren't hard to find. 

Maybe I should just keep this _Z. vasquezii_ as a houseplant. Do you have a preferred potting media to use with _Zamia_?

I might get a _Michelia figo_. I hope to have an _Illicium floridanum_ on the way this coming week. _Illicium_ is supposedly a lineage quite a bit older than _Magnolia_ and related plants. How much of a winter chill does the _M. figo_ need for flowering? And what is the flowering seaseon?

I was reading about roaches some more last night. If I get reproduction inside of the enclosure there will be very small nymphs crawling around, and they will just get trapped in the water under the void area. It will be smarter to just use adult single-sex roaches of whatever species I decide to go with as the display specimens.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

With most of the Central American Zamia spp. I use Fafard 3B potting mix (pH adjusted Peat, Pearlite, Composted pine bark), and add some medium horticultural charcoal. This suits my seedling and potted Z. pumilla, vazquezii, picta, fischeri, etc. However, there are a couple of species that require an alkalai soil, such as Z. angustifolia.

The Zamia vazquezii should make a great house plant. Make sure your pot has a good gravel drainage layer below the soil, and keep a drip tray with some water underneath to keep the humidity a little higher around the plant. Just don't keep the roots/caudex too wet. I've noticed that my plants (grown in ground) tend to experience a little drying/browning to the leaflet tips when the humidity stays below 60% for any length of time. A good misting with a spray bottle a couple times a week would also help. 

Michellia figo doesn't need much of a cool/cold cycle to flower. We only had 3 nights below 45F this winter, and mine bloomed just as well as any other year. The main triggers for blooming seem to be a shorter photo-period and a significant drop in night temps (at least a 15F temperature drop). The blooming season in FL starts in late December, as the days are significantly shorter, and our night temps drop into the 50's. They usually bloom until April, but it's been hot this year, and they finished blooming a couple weeks ago.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks again! I might just go ahead and repot the the _vasquezii_ as a houseplant. I wish that I hadn't trimmed the roots back the way I did. It was an inexpensive plant anyway.










I'll try to track down a few _pumila_ seedlings or small plants.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

I'll check in my nursery area later, as I may have some smaller Z. pumilla in pots.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey that would be great!

Do you have much experience with _Z. integrifolia_? The couple of descriptions that I ran into described it as even a bit smaller than _pumila_.

I'm also on the hunt for _Podocarpus_, _Afrocarpus_ and similar plants in case you might have anything like that around.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

hydrophyte said:


> Hey that would be great!
> 
> Do you have much experience with _Z. integrifolia_? The couple of descriptions that I ran into described it as even a bit smaller than _pumila_.


There's a big discussion (for years now) in the palm and cycad society of the identity of Zamia integrifolia/pumilla. The current US consensus is that they are all one species. That being said, there are a number of different forms/variants of this cycad in nature and in cultivation. One form of Z. pumilla is called "Palatka Giant" and grows to 5' tall and 8' in diameter, while I have another form from wild collected seed with leaves 8" long--in deep shade....


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yes while just looking around on the Internet I noticed that they might be synonyms, but I didn't dig too deep.

I had one other specific question about the _vasquezii_. How do they hold their foliage? This plant that I got in the mail is quite upright, but some of the pictures that I found show plants with horizontal foliage that looks like it would even have a trailing form if you were to hang the plant up. If I can keep it with an upright shape this plant of mine might look good in a large terrarium even if it will grow bigger leaves.


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## RarePlantBroker (Aug 3, 2008)

From the picture you posted, that plant looks like a fairly young specimen---all of which hold their leaves very erect. The leaf position can change as the plant matures. I have three specimens in my garden, two of them hold their leaves fairly erect, while the third holds its leaves in an erect arch (all are in fairly heavy shade). At one of my clients' properties, I have about 20 planted in a large bed, while most have fairly erect arching foliage, there are two that hold their leaves in a fairly low arc. There doesn't seem to be any reason for the change in how the foliage is carried.

What you may see in some pictures that look like "trailing" leaves may actually be a previous year's growth. In ideal cultivation conditions, this species will hold 3-4 years worth of foliage at one time, the older leaves will descend as the new growth emerges from the center of the caudex.

I do have two Zamia fischerii (which look VERY similar), but the leaves are nearly horizontal after they mature.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah like this picture of a _Z. fischeri_...

http://www.pacsoa.org.au/cycads/Zamia/fischeri.jpg

Thanks again! This is all helpful information while I try to get these largish plants to work visually inside of a terrarium enclosure.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just ordered my roaches from roachcrossing.com. I hope they well get here alright. Here is what I'm getting...

Google: _Gyna lurida_ "yellow"

Google: _Blaberus craniifer_

And I hope they will work with the terarrium system. My main concern is that they will find their way under the false bottom. So long as I use large nymphs or adults and so long as I keep the false bottom flush and tight it should be OK.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

What about running a very thin bead of silicone along the edge of the false bottom to seal it? Not a big deal to separate from the glass with a knife if you have to.

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think the screen will keep them out well enough. I just have to make sure everything is put together right and I'll use the large adult roaches.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my little _Z. integrifolia_ seedlings to use with my 30G setup. The seller was very generous and sent me a whole box of these. 










I hope they will grow, but not too fast.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here is my new little Nagi tree potted up. This is a cool plant.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

My roaches should get here today with the mail. I can't wait! 

I will try to post pictures.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> My roaches should get here today with the mail. I can't wait!
> 
> I will try to post pictures.


Yes please! Are they going right in or do they need a quarantine period?

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Didn't see 'em today...and I haven't gotten a shipping confirmation either. I'm not in any big hurry but I should email to see if they shipped.

I am just going to keep the roaches in growout for now. I ordered "medium" nymphs and it will be several months before I have adults. It's gonna take me a while to pull this project together too. I am growing most of the plants in a 30G but I want the display to be in a more spacious 65G or 90G fish tank.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my roaches. I hope to post some pictures this weekend. I found one nice hinged Tupperware but I have the second species in a yogurt jar and I need to find another sturdy container. It's gonna be a while before these go into a display.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a few pictures of my new little _Guna lurida_ nymphs tonight.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Like I think I mentioned earlier I intend to make this a diorama style setup with a shadowbox background. That's where I'll put the dinosaurs!

It looks like it's not too hard to get images printed onto large format clear film. There are a few different online businesses that offer this service. Here's one site that I was looking around earlier...

Movie Posters - Custom Standard and Backlit Movie Poster Printing

They offer a 24" X 36" printed sheet for $49, which isn't too bad.

This is the kind of image that I would want to find or create, _The Age of Reptiles_ mural at the Yale Peabody Museum of Natural History...

http://www.peabodystore.com/images/posters/reptileposter.jpg


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just ran into a cool blog all about paleontology. It includes a lot of pictures and discussion about paleoart. It looks like the author works at a museum....

Dave Hone's Archosaur Musings


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a few quick pictures to show the foliage in my 30G setup with the "living fossils" plants. Here's a view in through the top.










That _Zamia vasquezii_ fills up most of the tank. I pulled it out and got this shot to better show the rest of the plants.










They all look happy so far. That _Didymochleana_ fern grows really fast and it's a good one for filling in. The _Zamia integrifolia_ that I got from Florida all died back on top and I cut off the dead leaves, but the caudices are nice and firm and I hope they will resprout soon. The guy who sent them to me said that the leaves would dry up but resprout when I got the plants into stable conditions again.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Looks good. 

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks Jake! I hope it will look like more when I get the leaf litter in there.

I'm trying to track down a few more plants too.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I wonder if I could also keep a millipede with one or two roach species(?). LIke roaches millipedes can be expected to hide during the daytime, but mulitple individuals in the enclosure will increase the likelihood of seeing them from time to time. Here is the care sheet at bugsincyberspace.com...

Live Pet Millipede Care


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

I don't see why not. Neither are carnivorous, the'll probably just ignore each other. And they arent dart frogs so you wont get yelled at for mixing species  
If you could keep a stick insect in there... There are some really cool ones.

Jake


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah I imagine they would be OK. The only issue that came to mind is that most millipedes produce toxic exudates, but that probably wouldn't cause trouble in a big enclosure if there are just a few individuals.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I gotta remember to shop at Ecu Genera for ferns. They have quite a few unusual selections in their list...

Polypodeaceae -


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This would be another cool feature to add...a whole tree fern trunk postioned upright to look like the base of a live tree fern...

Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Buy Terrarium Supplies :: Terrarium Supplies :: Tree Fern Products :: Tree Fern Trunk

This would probably look best if you used a few of them. A great thing about using these is that they would also be excellent substrate for mounting various live epiphytic ferns.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

You could run them at an angle so they look like fallen trees.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

jacobi said:


> You could run them at an angle so they look like fallen trees.


Yeah that's a possibility too. Whether standing up straight or at an angle they would be very good fro growing some epiphytic ferns and that would look cool. I do want to incorporate fallen logs and I think something of diameter larger than those tree fern trunks might be better for that.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

You could strap 3 of them together with black zip ties. The plants and moss would cover the plastic fairly quickly.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm tracking down some Apheloria virginiensis millipedes that I hope to get in trade. I remember seeing these things on a hiking trip in the Smokies. They are pretty hefty.









Wikimedia Commons image... File:Apheloriavirginiensis.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

That looks fantastic. Not much info on them with a casual search. Are they readily available?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I hope to get some of them in trade maybe next week and I hope that I can get them to breed if I give them a good setup. 

When I went on that hiking trip I specifically remember seeing them crawling around during the day, especially during rainy days. I also found a number of them hiding beneath rotten logs.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I scored some new roaches today and they are pretty cool. I hope to post pictures later on.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Any updates?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

jacobi said:


> Any updates?


Hey I've been working on this a little bit more. We don't have an enclosure yet, but I been fleshing out some ideas and I will try to post some more updates.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

It took them a while, but most of the cycad seedlings have now grown a single new leaf. This one is _Zamia furfuracea_.



You can't really see it here, but the petioles stretched out really long. This one is almost a foot tall, but the leaf is only about 3" long. I think that they would stay more compact if I kept them under brighter light.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

And here is _Z. integrifolia_. This one also grew back with a tall petiole and rachis with leaflets just a few inches long.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

The majority of cycads definitely need a lot of light to stay nice. Think Cattleya alliance orchids.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Im super intertesrted in your cycad germination methods!!! I have seeds of Encephalartos ferox Id like to germinate soon


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

epiphytes etc. said:


> The majority of cycads definitely need a lot of light to stay nice. Think Cattleya alliance orchids.


Yep I hope that these might be OK if I have them up at the front of the enclosure with the brightest light.

I think that there are some rainforest_ Zamia_ that are more like understory plants and can grow well in the shade. 



frogparty said:


> Im super intertesrted in your cycad germination methods!!! I have seeds of Encephalartos ferox Id like to germinate soon


I did not start these. A real friendly nursery owner from Florida sent me a whole box of seedlings RAOK. He shipped them bare root and the tops died off, but they are just now all sprouting new fresh leaves.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

It took forever, but I finally have an adult _Gyna lurida_. I just noticed the freshly-molted adult in their container. It was still soft but I'll get a picture when tomorrow when it is fully dry. 

This is an older picture of nymphs.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm having a good week for roaches. I finally got an adult death's head. It is pretty attractive, for being a roach. I should get some pictures of it later on.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's this newly-eclosed _B. craniifer_. 










It _really_ did not want to be in the light. I had to cheat and chill it for 10 minutes in the fridge so it would settle down a littler bit for this picture.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

And here it is closer for a better view of the pronotum.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

The other day when we were out in the woods I got a few reference pictures. Dead fallen logs are a characteristic part of forest habitats and they can also be visually dramatic. I want to incorporate a big dead wood feature in this viv project.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here are a couple more...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Look! The Mexico cycad _Zamia vasquezii_ is growing two cones. This is pretty cool.










I don't know how well this plant will do in an enclosed viv. It hasn't grown any new leaves at all. However, I do see good root development on it.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I hope to make some more progress with this sometime soon.

I have pretty much decided that my preferred kind of animal to put in a setup like this would be an arboreal tarantula. I have had such good success with my 37G setup that I put together for that single _Avicularia metallica_ and I hope to do something similar with another spider species.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm working on this idea again. I have a spot in mind for it and I hope to get an enclosure for it sometime soon. I will probably use a standard 120G (48" X 24" X 24") fish tank. The taller 150G might be better, but hard to find and difficult to get down into the shop in the basement.

I'm pretty sure that I want to use a large fallen log as the main feature in the setup. This will provide a lot of space for planting cool little mosses and epiphytic ferns.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm still working on this, but it's slow.

The other day I took a trip over to the university to look for some ideas. I ran into some cool plants in the Botany Department greenhouse.

Look a this! This is an adder's tongue (_Ophioglossum_) fern. I don't know whay they call them adder's tongue; the fronds look more like spoons to me. You can also see the slender fertile fronds above the others. I was surprised to see it growing so vigorously in this tropical greenhouse. Pretty cool. 










I also went to see the Mesozoic Garden at the Discovery Center. These plants are bigger than the last time I saw it a couple of years ago. That big spiky plant is a _Pandanus_, but I don't know which species.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

They also had these cycads growing together in the greenhouse. When I have tried to grow cycads in a viv they have just gotten very spindly and leggy. Cycads also attract scale and mealybugs as bad as any kind of plant I have grown.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I gotta figure out livestock selection before I go much further with this plan. Here are the ideas that I have in mind...

terrestrial tarantula
arboreal tarantula
amblypygid
orb-weaving spider
roaches
millipedes
beetles(?)
mantis
Maybe I can combine roaches with millipedes(?). I could probably also stick a single mantis in there with roaches. I might also be able to use two or three different roach species. The most important constraint with roaches will be whether or not they decide to nibble on plants. The fallen log structure might serve as good habitat for roaches, an amblypygid or millipedes. 

The enclosure will probably be a 120G fish tank, but I am still pondering the idea of building another plywood tank.

If I decide on a tarantula I will probably opt for a large terrestrial species. For an arboreal I think I would prefer an enclosure and layout with a more vertical orientation. My 37G with the _Avicularia metallica_ is looking pretty good and here is a shot from the other night. If you look real close you will see the spider.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

A group of _Damon diadema_ would be really cool!
You could use cork tubes for the fallen tree which would double for a Amblypygi hotel

As much as I like tarantulas, it seems like a bit much space for one.

If you don't do this, I will


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Sammie said:


> A group of _Damon diadema_ would be really cool!
> You could use cork tubes for the fallen tree which would double for a Amblypygi hotel
> 
> As much as I like tarantulas, it seems like a bit much space for one.
> ...


I have thought the same thing about using a tarantula--it would be a lot of space for just one animal--but a single very large spider would be pretty cool.

I did not know that you could keep amblypygids as a group. I don't have any epxerience with them. That is good to know. Have you ever kept them? Could I hope to get reproduction if I keep them in a group in a roomy enclosure?

I intend for the fallen log(s) feature to have a good-sized, dark surface area on the bottom surface and up toward the front of the tank so that roaches or amblypygids might rest there in view most of the time. What do you think?


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I would not mix roaches and amblypygids-you will likely have losses(amblys knocked from perches while molting, eaten, etc.).

I know some people who have kept groups of Damon diadema in big setups. It is risky. IME male female pairs that have mated usually ignore each other, and often stay together. Females rear the young until they are near sexual maturity-so you could have a group of them for a while and then you'd have to remove all the "little" ones. Yes a piece of cork propped up against the front and they will stay in view. 

You could try the smaller Phrynus marginemaculatus from FL. Again, not really a group species but in such a large tank you could get away with it. 

Just about any species you mentioned can be kept with millipedes. You could try to get the african ones but they are not very common now. Any of the large NA Narceus would do fine. Bumblebee millipedes are small but very cute.

I personally would either do a few Damon diadema-or Princisia vanwaerbecki 'Big Black', Elliptorhina javanica, and a millipede species. Nephila clavipes would be neat too. Is that avic interesting at all in that big tank? I feel most T's just would not move much and would be rather boring. A large terrestrial may be worth a shot but again they don't do much.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> I would not mix roaches and amblypygids-you will likely have losses(amblys knocked from perches while molting, eaten, etc.).
> 
> I know some people who have kept groups of Damon diadema in big setups. It is risky. IME male female pairs that have mated usually ignore each other, and often stay together. Females rear the young until they are near sexual maturity-so you could have a group of them for a while and then you'd have to remove all the "little" ones. Yes a piece of cork propped up against the front and they will stay in view.
> 
> ...


Thanks for these details. I imagined that big roaches would be too rough to keep with amplypygids. I wondered about keeping some of the smaller roaches that might orient more toward foliage, such as a _Panchlora_ with various other things. With a large setup it would be cool if I could get the animals to use different micro-habitats.

How many other different things do you think I could keep with a _Nephila clavipes_?

For me the 37G is perfect for the avic. Hobbyists keep collections of T's, so tarantula enclosures are usually put together as cages with the minimum amount of space and habitat structure that the animal needs. I wanted this setup to be more like a naturalistic habitat display with a convincing planting: the scale of this enclosure in relation to the size of the spider works much better in this regard. Look at this older picture with the spider in view...










To me this looks a lot more natural than having the animal fill up 1/4 of the tank.

Every few days she also decides to take a 1/2-hour hike around the tank and she walks up and down and all over everything, so she uses the whole space. The larger tank with more surfaces also distributes the avic projectile poo, so I don't have to clean very often at all.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

I do have some experience with _D. diadema_, but I've never kept groups myself. I've seen it done though, but only 3 adults and plenty of half grown babies.

I've been *told* they do well in groups as long as it's plenty of hides in the tank, but Dendrobait may very well be right on this.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think that I should just plan on using roaches and then maybe I can add a millipede or something else compatible with them. If I'm lucky I might be able to use two or three different roaches that can get along. I can try to select one roach more likely to use the foliage, another more likely to use the fallen branch features and a third more likely to use the leaf litter & soil substrate. 

How does that sound? It's gonna take me a while to put the enclosure together, but in the meantime I could work on starting colonies of new roaches and that could be fun. RoachCrossing.com has such cool stuff.


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## Sammie (Oct 12, 2009)

My favorite roach, _Therea olegrandjeani_ climbs a lot and is very active in general. I suspect it doesn't quite have the appearance you're looking for though, but I thought I'd put it out there just in case.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Sammie said:


> My favorite roach, _Therea olegrandjeani_ climbs a lot and is very active in general. I suspect it doesn't quite have the appearance you're looking for though, but I thought I'd put it out there just in case.


I should totally got some of those. I think that that species combined with something big like a hisser or _Blaberus_ as well as somehting small that will climb on plants like a _Panchlora_ or _Pseudomops septentrionalis_ would be nice to have together. I will just have to watch for roaches nibbling on plants. 

Before I forget I wanted to link a couple of plant sources...

Giant Sequoia Trees | California Coastal Redwoods For Sale by SequoiaTrees.com

Forestfarm | Plant Nursery Online |

It might be cool to just use a few coast redwood or other conifer as most of the terrestrial plants. I have heard that redwoods can grow OK indoors if the air isn't too dry, so they might be a good choice for this airy viv. Redwoods shoot up like rockets once they get established, but maybe I can slow them down by keeping them in containers buried in the substrate to limit the root spread. Liners for six bucks each is a good deal for me. I could also start some from seed and that would be fun. 

I want to try that _Torreya californica_, too. That looks like a cool plant.


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## Agrippa (Jul 4, 2006)

I suspect Triops would work well if you decided to do a water feature. They require a dry period to complete their life cycle, but they're a fascinating creature and certainly fit the theme.










A bit different aquatic pet


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## BlackFrogExotics (Jan 9, 2014)

hydrophyte said:


> I gotta figure out livestock selection before I go much further with this plan. Here are the ideas that I have in mind...
> 
> terrestrial tarantula
> arboreal tarantula
> ...



Where did you get the amazing wood piece.

Sent from my SCH-R960 using Tapatalk


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

there are a few different cultivars of dwarf and miniature redwoods that may do well in there. I had a variegated one for a few years but didn't get it back into the greenhouse early enough one fall and killed it. forest farm may carry them, if not I can dig around through my nursery links and see if I can dig it up.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

ok wrong about forest farm. they are probably from Stanley and sons, but I have forgotten my sign in. I will ask a friend to look them up.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

another thought would be to substitute a podocarpus macrophyllus for the redwood. they are gondwana natives and there is a new dwarf one available from Monrovia that is zone 8 through 11 so it may take to a viv better and they take pruning well. there is also a blue form available that is cool both from Monrovia and Stanley and sons. Stanley and sons is an amazing site that is easy to get a password for and is very affordable. I visited the nursery when I was out in Oregon and it is amazing. he is into really cool really odd conifers some of which you will find nowhere else.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Agrippa said:


> I suspect Triops would work well if you decided to do a water feature. They require a dry period to complete their life cycle, but they're a fascinating creature and certainly fit the theme.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wondered about including a water feature. There are some very characteristic very old plants that are water-associated, such as horsetails and _Isoetes_. But it looks like this setup will just be a forest habitat. 



BlackFrogExotics said:


> Where did you get the amazing wood piece.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-R960 using Tapatalk


I made it with several manzanita branches attached with stainless steel screws to a plastic plate that rests on top of the enclosure. 



skanderson said:


> there are a few different cultivars of dwarf and miniature redwoods that may do well in there. I had a variegated one for a few years but didn't get it back into the greenhouse early enough one fall and killed it. forest farm may carry them, if not I can dig around through my nursery links and see if I can dig it up.





skanderson said:


> another thought would be to substitute a podocarpus macrophyllus for the redwood. they are gondwana natives and there is a new dwarf one available from Monrovia that is zone 8 through 11 so it may take to a viv better and they take pruning well. there is also a blue form available that is cool both from Monrovia and Stanley and sons. Stanley and sons is an amazing site that is easy to get a password for and is very affordable. I visited the nursery when I was out in Oregon and it is amazing. he is into really cool really odd conifers some of which you will find nowhere else.


That would be interesting to try out a miniature redwood or other conifer that might grow in this setup. Many miniature conifer cultivars look like volleyballs or cucumber vines or whatever and they generally have more compact foliage. For this I really need something with more airy and open foliage like a Charlie Brown Christmas tree. Maybe there is a miniature redwood that is more open like that. 

The Montezuma cypress that I got last year has been growing indoors in a fish tank all along and it still looks good. At one point my basement shop was pretty cold and dark and the tree looked pretty sad, but it never dropped all of its needles. I was surprised by how tough this little tree is. When I got it I chopped about half the foliage off the top along with 85% of the roots and then I planted it in a riparium planter. I wondered if it would just die after all that, but it just started to grow again right away. I have read that redwoods can also take pretty harsh bonsai training like this. 










I might get another Montezuma cypress. It's a cool plant.

Here is a list of conifers that I ran into described as growing in the Miami, FL area, so most of these are more tropical in their requirement and might be expected to be OK in a terrarium. This was from Dave's Garden or someplace like that. 


_Agathis robusta_
_Araucaria angustifolia_
_Araucaria bidwillii_
_Callitris_ spp.
_Cryptomeria japonica_
_Cunninghamia lanceolata_
_Cupressus cashmeriana_ (and related species)
_Dacrycarpus dacrydioides_
_Dacrydium cupressinum_
_Glyptostrobus pensilis_
_Keteleeria_ spp.
_Podocarpus_ 
_Widdringtonia_ spp.


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## Judy S (Aug 29, 2010)

Have to admit after having gone through this whole thread this a.m.--I have gained new respect for your "bugs"....I'll have to Google about a hundred of names though...


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

hydrophyte:

I have no experience with Nephila-but if I'm sure millipedes would be great tankmates for them and they would stay out of each others way. I think if you got the roach populations started a bit before introducing the Nephila it would be an ok combo too. 

I'd recommend doubleds for roaches-great prices and service.

Good to hear the T does move around somewhat!

Actually-if you want to do spiders-how about tarantulas that do ok in groups? Holothele incei is one-look up communal tarantulas on arachnoboards....some members have tanks with dozens upon dozens of tarantulas in them. Granted they tend to be small species-and they web the tank like crazy so that may not be very desirable.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Assassin bugs!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I changed my mind about building this in a fish tank and I have opted for plywood instead. I think the enclosure needs more height for everything I want to include.

Here is a plan that I made for cutting the plywood panels. The sides, front and back rest on top of the bottom panel, so the enclosure will have 22.5" of depth. This shows the panel window cutouts with frames 3.75" on each side, or 3" inside of the seams with the side panels. Can I decrease this a bit for a wider view?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> hydrophyte:
> 
> I have no experience with Nephila-but if I'm sure millipedes would be great tankmates for them and they would stay out of each others way. I think if you got the roach populations started a bit before introducing the Nephila it would be an ok combo too.
> 
> ...


Yeah like I said the avic setup isn't supposed to be just a spider cage. I wanted something that would be a habitat representation with nice plants. It really does look good in the room where I have it. I should try to get video to show it better. 

I wouldn't want a whole lot of webbing in this new project either. I think I am going to try using two or three species of roaches and then see what other few species I can add. 



jacobi said:


> Assassin bugs!


Yeah that's something that I could consider. I see that some of the invert sellers have various species up for sale. Is this a new thing? Assassin bugs do kind of creep me out because they look like Chagas bugs. I was always nervous about Chagas bugs in Southern Mexico. Chagas disease will screw you up for life like Lyme disease. 



hydrophyte said:


> I changed my mind about building this in a fish tank and I have opted for plywood instead. I think the enclosure needs more height for everything I want to include.
> 
> Here is a plan that I made for cutting the plywood panels. The sides, front and back rest on top of the bottom panel, so the enclosure will have 22.5" of depth. This shows the panel window cutouts with frames 3.75" on each side, or 3" inside of the seams with the side panels. Can I decrease this a bit for a wider view?


Anybody have any options about this plywood design? I am wondering if I really need a frame that wide around the viewing panel, or if I could make it more narrow (maybe 2.75"?).


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's an interesting plant and an online nursery I never heard of before...

Cunninghamia lanceolata (dwarf) Dwarf Chinafir from Woodlanders, Inc.

That tree looks sort of like a monkey puzzle, but less spiky.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

This place... 

50% off All Available Seedlings Now - Home

...has about as many cycads for sale as anybody, but their prices are high. They currently have seedlings on sale.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my little redwood trees in the mail last night.










It will be interesting to see how these respond to viv culture. I have read some things insisting that coast redwood needs to have a cool winter dormancy, but the instructions that came with these seedlings recommended keeping them for several years indoors to grow to size before planting out. There are some huge redwoods planted almost a hundred years ago on Maui... Hawaii coast redwood - Giant Sequoia At 20° N there can't be all that much seasonality there.

I planted the trees in 3" net pots with ABG mix.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Somebody on Facebook linked this flickr album with photos of New Zealand forests and streams...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nzwild/7028585967/in/set-72157625007398555/

I was thinking about going on flickr to look for good reference photos of forests in Tasmania and New Zealand. They have that very primeval kind of vegetation with tree ferns and lots of moss and Southern Hemisphere conifers.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

One of the little redwood trees is already dead. Maybe they just can't make it in humid viv conditions.

This is kinda cool...

Graduate student brings extinct plants to life | Geology Page


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## Limitedjive (Jan 16, 2013)

That 37g is an awesome setup!!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Something else pretty cool I ran into...

Ferns and Lycophytes of the World | A Digital Herbarium


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

hydrophyte said:


> One of the little redwood trees is already dead. Maybe they just can't make it in humid viv conditions.


Ah bummer-I've always wanted to try doing a Pac NW kind of vivarium...that is odd as the forests these things come from are incredibly wet.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> Ah bummer-I've always wanted to try doing a Pac NW kind of vivarium...that is odd as the forests these things come from are incredibly wet.



I think that maybe a fungus or something just got into that one individual. The other two look good and they are actively growing with new white roots coming out of the sides of the net pots. I think the redwood trees might be OK in viv conditions so long as there is good air circulation.

I have read conflicting things about whether coast redwoods really require a cool winter dormancy or not. The instructions that came with the seedlings I bought said that redwood is a strictly outdoor plant for seasonally cool areas, but contradictorily indicated that the seedlings should be grown inside on a windowsill for a couple of years to get up to size before planting in the ground.

Redwoods have been planted all over the world and there are some huge trees on Maui...

Hawaii coast redwood - Giant Sequoia

Those trees are up on the side of a volcano, but Maui is out in the middle of the ocean and only at 20° N, so there can't be much of a winter there.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my seeds for the tropicalish conifers in the mail. I'm pretty stoked to get them started. This is what I got...


_Agathis robusta_
_Cunninghamia lanceolata_
_Keeteleria evelyniana_
_Taxodium huegelii_ (_mucronatum_)

The seeds look like they are very high quality. I hope they will sprout for me. The _Agathis_ is supposed to be sown directly, while the other three need 30-day cold moist stratification. 

I started some _Taxodium huegelii_ seeds last year and I still have the little seedlings growing here.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I wish it would warm up here. I really want to assemble and seal this enclosure, but it is still so chilly with lows in the 30's. It is supposed to be warmer next week with highs up in the 70's.


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## JCK (Jul 8, 2013)

Hehe, when I started reading this thread, my first thought was: Velvet worms. I have seen some at the Terraristika in Hamm last year. Seems like they are not THAT hard to breed. 

Another cool option would be a primitive tropical ant species. I keep some ant colonies aside from PDF's, they are truly great animals and in a tank like this you could even keep several different species (non aggressive ones of course) together.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

JCK said:


> Hehe, when I started reading this thread, my first thought was: Velvet worms. I have seen some at the Terraristika in Hamm last year. Seems like they are not THAT hard to breed.
> 
> Another cool option would be a primitive tropical ant species. I keep some ant colonies aside from PDF's, they are truly great animals and in a tank like this you could even keep several different species (non aggressive ones of course) together.


That would be awesome to get some velvet worms. I have heard that they are not so hard to keep, but you have to give them the right kind of setup. They are costly and hard to come by, but I have seen them up for sale a couple of times. 

Here in the USA it is illegal to keep non-native ants.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

About peripatus

I've poked a couple of importers about them with no response. I think Blue pumilio says he will try to bring some in. They might be decent dart frog companions actually-though it probably would not be above some species to zap and eat a tiny froglet.

The only currently available species in the US is from New Zealand of all places and is small and not too impressive. It also needs to be kept in a wine cooler for success by most people.

I'm sure if we get a species from the lowlands it will prove fairly easy to keep.


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## edaxflamma (Jan 18, 2014)

Dendrobait said:


> About peripatus
> 
> I've poked a couple of importers about them with no response. I think Blue pumilio says he will try to bring some in. [...]
> 
> I'm sure if we get a species from the lowlands it will prove fairly easy to keep.


Oh man if you guys decide to get some temperate/lowland velvet worms up and running keep me in the loop. 

This is going to be quite the viv once you get it going... Definitely keeping up with this one!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I sure would like to know about potential imports of onycophorans.


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## JCK (Jul 8, 2013)

A few other potential inhabitants have come to mind


I can't find the scientific name right now, but last year an importer here had giant mites (about 1-2cm) and giant dady long legs, really fascinating.
About two years ago, there was an import of giant weta, also a great primitive animal.
You could also consider keeping a pair or group of Phidippus regius, a big jumping spider, with interesting social and courting behaviour. They won't spoil the looks of your tank with webs.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Bugs would only be appropriate if you live in the UK.

A few times(on arachnoboards) I have seen unusual harvestman offered. Check out metagyndes innata! Success with WC imports has been limited-but one Canadian member offered CB individuals of a similar species. I was way too slow on the pickup though! I'm sure he will have more available in the future.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

What do you mean bugs are only OK if you are in the UK?

I made some more headway with the enclosure tonight. I drilled all the holes for the cabinet screws and partially assembled the whole thing, then took it apart again. Somehow this took me all night(?). If you count your time these plywood enclosures sure don't save you much. I do however like this shape that I designed. The extra height will give more space for growing some pretty cool plants. This enclosure will also weigh much less than a fish tank of the same volume would have. 

I still need to round up a few more things to get ready for sealing with the resin.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

In the US we cannot legally keep such creatures as leaf/stick insects etc.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Dendrobait said:


> In the US we cannot legally keep such creatures as leaf/stick insects etc.


Leaf and stick insects are in Order Phasmatodea. I understand that with the exception of native US species we are not allowed to keep them here. 

Giant wetas are in Orthoptera, along with crickets and grasshoppers. Are we allowed to keep orthopterans as hobby pets here?

The true bugs and related insects are Order Hemiptera. Apparently we do not have special restrictions for Hemiptera. BugsInCyperspace.com has a couple of different imported assassin bugs for sale.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

USDA APHIS | Plant Health


Exemption from Interstate Movement Permits

No plant pest permits are required for the interstate movement of the following organisms within the continental United States: Acheta domestica, Bombyx mori, Drosophila melanogaster, Galleria mellonella, Gromphadorhina portentosa, Hippodamia convergens, Odontotaenius disjunctus, Spirobolus spp, Tenebrio molitor, Tribolium confusum and Zophobas morio.

(they forgot to add Gryllodes assimilis to this list)

From my understanding. Anything else(other species of roaches) mantids, and assassins(possible bee eaters) are technically illegal. USDA does not seem to show the rigour in enforcement of this compared to phasmids. My understanding is that the large tropical roaches in particular are in a sort of grey area-their was a movement in the works between some hobbyists and USDA officials to draft up a white list of roach species. It was never done, partly as no need was seen. A lot of roach species currently circulating are from university researcher releases to be public(no details on if this violated IUCAC or other protocol). I am not aware of any reports of mantid confiscations either.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I understood that the only hobby-implicated insects you really have to worry about are non-native ants and non-native Phasmatodea. I think there must be specific rules about these and that's why there aren't any vendors who handle them. 

Are there specific rules permitting hobby tarantulas?

It's too bad there aren't rules specifically allowing pet insects. They could just one day arbitrarily decide to crack down and enforce that vague law and that would be the end of keeping most pet insects.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

USDA is much more rigorous about phasmid enforcement-internet busts have occured. However, I have seen(and purchased when I was ignorant-they all went in the freezer after reading the regs!) stick insects at reptile shows-usually the vendor will give you some BS about how they are a native species and exempt. In my case they turned out to be Vietnamese sticks. If you do collect a native stick species and do not transport it out of state then you should be in the clear. You will still see them at educational institutions such as schools and nature centers-again, not many people know and many people assume that such places must be licensed.

Actually I have seen all kinds of unsavory illegal stuff at reptile shows. Clearly locally WC herps, lubber grasshoppers from another state (the guy smiled and brushed me off when I questioned him as to their origins and legalities), etc. etc.


On tarantulas oddly enough, no. USFWS seems to deal with arachnids, crustaceans, etc. Even millipedes are for the most part unregulated-though USDA cracked down on the import of African Giant Blacks due to mites on them. I was told by a reliable source these may be imported again if some way of demiting them can be worked out-though they will never be as cheap as the glory days!

I feel a few species that are really low risk should be permitted. Large tropical beetles, some tropical rainforest butterflies/moths, etc. They have been kept for years in the US extralegally and elsewhere without issues. With slow generational times and/or very specific needs they just don't have the qualities to make them possible pest species.

Also, the above list of exempt species is clearly based on tradition as well as science/pet industry power.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I still think it would be cool to try some solitary bees in a large planted viv...

Crownbees | Your Complete Mason Bees Resource

It might be tricky, but they don't cost all that much. I could also go out and catch some bees and try to get them started, but I think that chances would be better with these cultured bees.

I hope to start bonding the enclosure together tomorrow with the clear coat. I have to do it all outside in several steps and it looks like we have no rain in the forecast for the rest of the week.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

That would be really neat! I think that in order for one to have success you would have to have really intense lighting and one way glass to prevent the bees from constantly trying to fly out of then tank.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm not going to build an enclosure with one-way glass. It might be a good idea to try some wild bees in an enclosure for a day just to see how they behave.

You can work in an enclosure with flying bugs by waiting till the room is dark and lighting it up with a red light. They will just keep sleeping in red light. 

I got the tank all bonded together today. The plywood soaked up a lot of the resin and I used almost half of it just putting it together. I still need to apply fiberglass and put more coats on top. I will have to buy another 1-quart kit to finish it up.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

hydrophyte: The one way glass would be so the insects could see the boundaries of the enclosure. Without that they will likely be constantly disoriented. A great trick to kill ground wasps is to firmly place a clear bowl over the entrance of the nest-preferably while it is still dark. The wasps will not figure out that all they need to do is dig out and the whole colony will soon starve. 

The above is completely theoretical and has not been actually tried, of course. I think that small damselflies would be a neat one to try in a setup built this way.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

There was a greenhouse over on the university campus that had a resident population of a very small (~1.5") dragonfly with patterned wings reproducing in the greenhouse pond. I asked and the people there didn't know anything about them. I think it must have been some little feral dragonfly that came in with some plants. I have looked over there a couple of times again, but I don't see them anymore. Maybe they sprayed a bug killer in there. I wish I could figure out what they were. They would also be cool to try in a large viv with a water feature. 

Today I ordered the _Gnetum gnemon_ seeds from a seller in Indonesia on ebay. It will be a miracle if they spout for me--I'm not real good with seeds--but this will be another cool plant to have if I can get them started.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's this thing with the panels all bonded together.










This thing has an inside volume of about 165 gallons. It will have three big viewing panels and the fourth side will be closed. I want to be able to use it as a peninsula.

Tomorrow I am going to attack it with the belt sander the square up the joints on the outside. I would apply more resin too, but it's supposed to rain tomorrow.

I put the joints together by applying the thin epoxy resin to both edges, followed with some more resin thickened with wheat flour. The thickened resin squeezed out (and made a mess) when I tightened the screws down and it filled all the gaps in the joints.

I'm going to coat the rest of the inside and apply the fiberglass cloth too.


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## Deltagraphic (Sep 29, 2017)

Wow, i'd love to hear more about this set-up as I have been considering something nearly identical ever since having success with a 18x18x24 community invert vivarium. Since I will be adding 3 leucs to that tank as an experiment, I have held off on adding any predators larger than a jumping spider but was thinking I would try vinegaroons in my 'prehistoric' set up.


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