# Has anyone succesfully pulled off a stream in a ten gallon?



## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Has anyone succesfully pulled off a stream in a ten gallon? Title says it all

Pics would help


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

I have done it, but it was a year ago, and I have no pictures. I felt it took away to much area away from the frogs, and I would not put another stream in unless it was a large tank.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Well i decided to try something very crazy.
I am creating a ten gallon vert but with a water section its hard to explain so this is my try.

Imagine a ten vert with nothing in it. You have the piece of plexi/glass that keeps your substrate in. running in a diagnal style will be another piece of plexi or glass so you can have a water section and a land sectiopn.
Makes sense?


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2005)

Yea, but I would just skip the whole like thing - too small. I have seen it done but like geckguy said it takes away from the frogs.

Why do you need one?

Brooks


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I am looking into purchasing a pair of frogs that require a stream to induce breedinf behavior.


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2005)

O.K, now I see why you want a water area. Whydon't you make a waterfall with a false bottom and no pond?
Brooks


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

What type of frogs?


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Mybe a pair of castis mybe not or another thumb and the water feature will just look cool. I think the water region is big enough to hold two small fish pics will come in time.


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## Bry (Feb 18, 2004)

Why not just get a bigger tank?


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

i dont have the money for one well i do but i do not want to spend it when i have other choices i think this will turn out rather cool.
I cant believe 20 gallon tanks are $40 at minimum. I will have to score a free one sometime somwhere someday. But for the mean time this should be cool and i have all the resources i need at the time.


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

hello,

unless you have a really good filter (canister maybe) it will be very hard to keep that little amount of water clean with 2 frogs, 2 fish, and possibly dead feeder insects and plant parts. most fish require very clean water. the waterfall will act as a filtration system, but i doubt that it can handle that much organic waste in proportion to how much water you have. fish like betas and small gouramis have a special organ (anabantiod process i think) which allows them to breathe air when the water quality is poor, but i would suggest that you do some research before trying the fish/frog setup in a 10 vert... maybe with leca balls as a substrate because the large surface area is good for growing the beneficial bacteria which clean the water...assuming that the water moves across the whole substrate. like if the intake is in one corner and the output is in the opposite corner. you also want to maybe seed the tank with a product like 'cycle' to jump start the process. just my .02. i hope your tank turns out beautifully. keep us posted.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Thanks mak! That helped me solve a couple problems. So heres my plan for the water section.( i am almost certain it is way to small for a water fall so i am improvising with running water)
1. it is approximatley 1 gallon (almost exactly)
2. Aquarium Systems Duetto Multi-Function Internal Filter The 50 version
3. water changes will be easy
4. A couple ghost shrimp (3 or so) to pick out any dead or decaying material.
5. Possibly one or two small neon tetras or other small fish ( i feel that thats alot for one gallon but i think they should be fine once the tank cycles and i buy them)
6.Gravel bottom with a plant or two
7. Java moss the natraul bio filter

So thats pretty much it any ideas


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2005)

*water*

java moss will not grow well in the water section of that size if there are fish and shrimp in it as it flourishes best in water low in nitrogenous waste from animals.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2005)

Well i have a stream in my 18 tall "same footprint as a 10g" and i really like it i will try and post some pics and a description when i get home


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

hey again,

if you do religious and frequent(more than once per week) water changes this might work, but it's still a bit risky. in the end neon tetras are inexpensive and plentiful, so your personal ethics will have to prevail as to whether to risk it and experiment.

the shrimp are a bit of a false economy because they excrete everything that they consume so actually you are just increasing the bioload...algae eaters and shrimp may help "clean" the plants or the glass, but do not clean the water. 

my last suggestion is that you might look at ellasoma evergladei....they are about the same size as tetras and the males are very pretty black with electric blue spots(females are plain and brown)...i just mention them because they live(like betas) in small puddles where temperature, ph, and other water values change rapidly and waste builds up naturally. neons, i believe, are river fish and not adapted to deal with these fluctuations. 

i hope things go well,
mack


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

oops...

that should be elassoma.....


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Tetras probably would not be the best choice for that water section. Ghost shrimp might work but it does seem a little odd if you ask me.

I keep Elassoma evergladei and I don't think I would reccomend them for such a setup unless the person doing so had at least some prior fish experience. While they are very hardy when acclimated new ones often fall victim to fungal or bacterial infections. Also, they are very skittish and shy(its impossible to know how many you have and because of the shyness you will need lots of plant cover like java moss) and require live food. Unless you sit down and observe and add some food you seldom see them. Not trying to discourage this as I really enjoy these guys but just some things to think about. Heterandria formosa would be a better option. They are about the same size as E. evergladei, peaceful, accept practically anything, and also when used to the tank stay out in the open. If you want to have tads deposited in this pool I'd think they'd turn into snacks for the fish or shrimp quickly.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Where can i get Ellasoma evergladei? i found very little information by searches and was wondering where to get them or if they have a common name?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

You can find both Elassoma evergladei and Heterandria formosa on aquabid.com. Look under native fish http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/ ... fwusnative. I would recomend the Heterandria over the Elassoma. Even better would be a Rivulus sp. killifish which might get up out of the water and join your frogs at the feeding bowl. Keepers of Rivulus frequently find their fish migrating from one tank to another, sometimes on a higher shelf!

Cheers and please skip the neons they don't stand a chance,

Chris

http://killifish.homestead.com/index.html


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

http://www.aquaculturestore.com sells them.

Grassypeak: Hey thats a great idea! Those never crossed my mind. Yeah-they would likely also use the land section to some extent(such as basking on the bank or on top of floating plants or nearby leaves). Most are not very colorful fish but I wonder if perhaps the dart frogs may even live near them in the wild. Do keep in mind a few species are known to be aggresive/greedy eaters.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

Do you think a local fish stire would sell them?


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I doubt they would. Your only source would be online for these guys. I keep E. evergladei but don't have any available yet.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

i have experience with fish i own a 12 gallon reef tank. I know certain fish are extremley picky. I was planning a dwarf seahorse tank but after i thought it over with hatch Brine every day i went towards DARTS!  
Mybe i will find an alternative. I will go to my local fish store today and see what they have. It is a starnge shop with alot of interesting fish i am convinced their distributer collects with cyanide b/c their fish are so cheap and plentiful. Well i will let you guys know what i decide on.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Rivulus should be pretty easy for you to care for. Heck, they can even share the darts FF's. Still probably won't find them in a fish store as they are not mainstream type fish(they would never sell).


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## insularexotics (May 3, 2005)

*Go larger or skip the fish*

I would strongly recommend against the fish...especially neons. That is an awfully small amount of water and it will be VERY unstable causing the fish no end of stress. IF you must do fish, I'd recommend you get *1* chocolate, sparkling or croaking gourami. They have the labyrinth organ that others have mentioned and are relatively inactive. Neons really should be in schools (like they are in the wild) and 2 does not make a school.

The rule of thumb is 1" of fish per gallon of water. As others mentioned the shrimp count as a load as well. So figure your original plan at 3-4 "inches of fish." WAY too much!! I don't care how good your life support system is, with the plant debris, frog poop, dead feeders and fish, you are asking for trouble and sentencing your fish to a stressful and miserable existence. You'd almost have to do a constant flow-through water change (at a trickle) just to keep the water quality in the accepatable range.

I would ditch the shrimp as invertebrates can be vectors for diseases of fish and they preclude use of many medications you would normally use for fish. You are already looking at a very complicated system with lots of potential for diseases crossing Class lines and limited treatment options for the fish with just fish, frogs and plants.

:idea: I would suggest you spend the $$ on a bigger tank to do it right and then save up for the castis when you have the system up, running and stable. Patience and proper planning will provide fewer headaches in the long run and probably save you money in treatments or replacements for animals lost because of too small of a tank.

Not to brag, but to give you my background, I have a BS and MS in Marine Biology. I worked in the pet trade FT for 5 years and I have been a professional aquarist in public institutions for 7 years. I would not dream of doing what you are proposing even with all of that experience.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

thats what i firgured. But it is practically done. I realize the importance of allthat while i only keep one cb percula clown which is only an inch in my 12 gallon nano reef. 

I was also think about those hawaiian red shrimp they stay small and would look nice how do you think that sounds. A store i know of stocks them.

I think three or so shrimp would be cool. They only reach a maximum size of 4 cm.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

A tank that small should not be used for both fish and frogs. And especially not castis, since their legal status is beyond questionable. If you really want a thumb, I would recommend vents or imitators. 

I have some of my vents in an 18 gallon, which is basically two 10s stacked on top of one another. I got them at Petsmart for $17 each. You can also find 20 gallon longs there for $25. And skip the fish if you're going to use a 10 gallon vert.

I would advise buying a bigger tank if you want to do the paludarium type setup. At LEAST a 40 gallon brooder. My 29 gallon is too small to give adequate space for both frogs and fish, so I just have frogs.


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## booboo (Jan 22, 2005)

I have vents and i think i will try it out if i notice any stress i will move them to a larger tank if not they can live there happily.


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