# SLS survival?



## racer69 (May 24, 2006)

I have an auratus froglet that has been out of the water for about a week and a half or so. It was raised in the pond in its parents tank. When I discovered it, it looked like it was missing it's right arm. Caught it and it has SLS.  He obviously crawled out of the tank on his own. I HATE to have to put it down but also don't want it to starve to death. I put a piece of fruit in the tank to attrack the very few fruit flies to one place. He is in a 10 gal vertical with a small pond in the corner (has been for about 5 days). Everytime I look in the tank he's in a different place so he is getting around somewhat. He can't support his upper boddy bt a fruit fly crawled on his head and he flipped his head to get it off. Tonight when I misted the tank he got scared and jumped 3 inches or so down into the pond. About 10 minutes later he's near the back of the tank. I can't tell if he's eating or not. Haven't seen him eat any fruit flies but there are tons of springtails in the tank. My question is will he eventually starve to death and should I just put him down now? Thanks,


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## frogman824 (Aug 10, 2005)

I've luckily never encountered any sls froglets, I think the best thing you could do would be to put it down though. The way I see it is survival of the fittest, if you have to go out of your way to help it get by then it wasn't meant to live. I wish you the best with your future morphing froglets.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

If you are sure he has spindley, I would put him down. Or...you learn a bit from him about how spindley leg frogs behave and how long they live. 

I have NEVER had a spindley leg I have produced survive more than 1 month.

Melis


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## thetattooedone (Mar 26, 2007)

I feel ya. 

I had some GL Lamasi froglets come out w/ SLS a couple of months ago. It's hard to see them just lying there, unable to get around. After a week though, I put them down. It's hard to do, but in the end it's best. They would never thrive and would probably just slowly die anyway. I think you also have to think that the quality of life wouldn't be that great even if they were able to grab a springtail or FF here or there, as a majority of their life would be sitting in a stationary position, unable to get around that well. It would be different if it were just missing a few toes or something like that, but missing an arm is a tough handicap to overcome. Best of luck.

Brent


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

Build him a little front wheel chair so he can rest his head and wheel around the viv ambushing flies. 

No seriously I'm all for let him live if he can. Not all about the 'putting' frogs down method.


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## Mikee (Oct 23, 2007)

Damn that sucks. I hope i never encounter this problem..although i am sure it will eventually. As hard as it to put it down i think its the best thing to do.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

A slightly different response just to confuse the topic. A)Wild frogs are often found missing a limb and apparently doing fine (I have a P. vittatus that lost a foot over 9 years ago and is doing fine). B) Many, if not most, causes of SLS appear to be nutritional/environmental rather than genetic.

So IF this frog has only one SLS affected limb but is otherwise able to move around okay, and IF it appears to be eating well and growing, then I think you can make your own decision about what to do with the frog. I've only had very limited experience with spindly but, like Melissa, have never seen them survive for long. But you never know. I think the important thing is to not let the animal suffer.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are different levels of SLS. You say you thought he was missing a limb? As in only one limb was affected? I'd say he's actually got a good chance for being ok... I've had an auratus in my "gimp" group that had one forelimb that was classic SLS, the other normal. She couldn't compete with normally developed auratus, but did just fine on her own (man she was a porker). Keep the froglet on an easy to navigate substrate, feed it like crazy, and keep it alone. 

Now animals with the much more debilitating form of SLS that affects both forelimbs and they can't even raise their head? Yes, I'd say put them down, they will only starve to death otherwise. If they can lift themselves up and move around? Give them a chance. There are people like me who are willing to take them on as well.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I was reading elsewhere something a well-known frogger (breeder) on DB wrote concerning SLS and tad care. I will not use his name, because it is his choice if he wants to post that on here. But he made the decision to stop aiding weaker tads. He seemed to feel that if a tad did not have strong enough front limbs to pull it's self from the water then he was not doing it any favors by assisting it. I think he designed his tad conatiners with a desent slope for the frogletts to climb out of (not too extreme). I think that is a pretty fair stance. If an animal can make it on its own then there is absolutely no need to put it down. If it requires excessive care to survive and is maybe one day even bred, then that may not be contributing to health stock. Now if SLS is largely nutritional deficiency as opposed to genetic as Brent said, then that is a different story. This is only an opinion, not anyway a scientific conclusion, just makes sense to me.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

I agree completely with that opinion, as I do the same. If the tadpole can't make it out of the water, it becomes tadpole food for the others. If it can make it out of the water even if deformed, then that frog gets my respect and it's own special shoebox. I've seen an imi live and breed perfectly well (in a group of imis no less) that was missing around a third of one of his hind legs... didn't stop him.


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Interesting Corey. I wasn't sure how that statement would fly. In the case of this breeder I am sure he wants to only pass on the strongest frogletts to his customers, as is a good custome. I was once at a hop when they got a new shipment of various darts and I saw 4 or 5 frogletts with SLS, I was appauled that someone would pass that on. I don't know who their source was.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

There are a couple different views on raising frogs... I will admit I'm a bit old school and an oddball... but if my frogs are big, healthy, and the strongest of the bunch then why would I pass them on? BUT - there are those trying to get most froglets out of their adults, and want 100% survivalship... some don't know better, some don't care. This topic has come up a bit like convos in the conservation section about trends with smaller/weaker froglets and what not...


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

I agree Corey. Strong big animals should be the breeding stock. I know I have seen this topic before as well. It is something I worry about with the hobby, cheaper and cheaper prices for lower and lower quality animals (inbreeding issues, animals that should never have been sold in the first place). But a lot of that is also personal choice I suppose. You can either spend the extra money on a quality animal, or not, right?


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

Mywebbedtoes said:


> If it requires excessive care to survive and is maybe one day even bred, then that may not be contributing to health stock. Now if SLS is largely nutritional deficiency as opposed to genetic as Brent said, then that is a different story. This is only an opinion, not anyway a scientific conclusion, just makes sense to me.


I've posted this before but I think this is a very interesting article relative to whether we should cull or not. http://www.vortex9.org/reprints/should% ... lleles.pdf There is always a question about what are we culling for? It could be that we are improving the genetics to make frogs more suitable for thriving in the environments we provide. There is nothing wrong with that if the goal is to make a genetic line of durable pets. It's not much of an improvement for animals we may one day wish to return to the wild though (which really doesn't include any current hobby populations).


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## Mywebbedtoes (Jul 2, 2007)

Thank you Brent, I will read that soon.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

What's interesting is how some animals may get left out of the breeding pool because of a deformity that is not genetic (they lost an eye, or part of a limb, or morphed with one arm SLS from a nutritional issue) should probably be included... but at the same time but letting weak tadpoles survive and morph, then cottle them until they are large enough to breed, is that just as detrimental? It's cutting out some of the natural selection by making sure all of them survive...


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

KeroKero said:


> ... but at the same time but letting weak tadpoles survive and morph, then cottle them until they are large enough to breed, is that just as detrimental? It's cutting out some of the natural selection by making sure all of them survive...


But you have to ask yourself why are they weak? Perhaps they would be strong, even superior, if the environmental conditions had been slightly different. You can go crazy talking yourself in circles on these problems but there really are only questions and personal judgement calls. I think when the goal is retaining the genetic variability of a wild population, that paper I posted makes a pretty strong case not to cull. That weak tadpole may just harbor the gene that could pull a population through armegedon. But if our intention is to breed frogs that thrive in captivity, it is an entirely different game.


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

I have a female E. anthonyi that looks intermediate between SLS and normal. She cannot move her front arms much at all, as if they are paralyzed. She is forever sitting like a dog on the rug with its head up and alert. Her back is curved to adapt to her way of sitting. 

Ironically, she is much bolder than my other female, and has even picked a fight with the other girl. However, she doesn't seem to be a good breeder. Her appetite is much better than the breeder.


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