# Designer Frogs



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

We see alot of designer reptiles. Especially in snakes. Certain morphs are crossed or even created...soon they become hot items and people are going nuts to get them. I was wondering....What is it about the dart community that makes us immune to this type of explotation?

You dont see cross breeds at all let alone in any kind of demand. Honestly certain frogs crossed would probably create somthing interesting, but its not healthy for the population. Why is the dart frog community so much more concious?


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

There has been a history of crosses in darts. You can find leuc x auratus crosses, for example. And really, the tendency for most crosses is that they're more bland than the parents. Darts truly are a case where Mother Nature did it right the first time and there's no real point in us tinkering.

You'll also see that crosses in reptiles generally go through fads. Blizzard Leopard Geckos were a hot thing a couple years ago. They'd go for over $100 easily. Now, I can get them for $20, marginally more than a regular leopard gecko. I think that the frog community, by and large, is more immune to this sort of fad mentality. Yes, you see frogs get more and less popular over time, but they generally stay relatively constant, based on what I can tell.


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Most likely because there's enough color, shape and species diversity in nature that there's no need to create something new. They look pretty interesting already. 

Also, when people want to buy a certain dart species they want to know that they're getting an unmixed frog. The worry about people mixing them is enough to keep people from doing it. It ends up forcing people to buy only from importers and reputable breeders.

-Nish



MrGerbik said:


> We see alot of designer reptiles. Especially in snakes. Certain morphs are crossed or even created...soon they become hot items and people are going nuts to get them. I was wondering....What is it about the dart community that makes us immune to this type of explotation?
> 
> You dont see cross breeds at all let alone in any kind of demand. Honestly certain frogs crossed would probably create somthing interesting, but its not healthy for the population. Why is the dart frog community so much more concious?


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## allyn (Oct 6, 2008)

Are hybrids illegal or somthing? because mods get mad and deleate posts when i ask about them.


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

They're not illegal, it's just frowned upon. Hybrids, in any species, generally, aren't great genetically and aren't always good reproductively/immunologically. Why hybridize simply to get a color/pattern that more likely than not is already out there?


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## steelheader (Oct 25, 2008)

Why would you want to mess with such beautiful creations? Also ,from what I have seen in pics, they never look as good as their parents.


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## frogsanddogs (Jun 21, 2008)

I have also noticed that a very high percentage of dart frog hobbyists often tend to work in or have a heavy biology/ science/ research background... I wonder if this isn't a contributing factor...


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

interesting stuff here. . .being that i have crossed alanis and citronella...did not plan on it, but once they started i was to curious to see what they would turn out... and to be honest i think its one of the better looking tincs i've seen,(defiantly not "more bland than the parents"...at least in my case)  has traits of a citronella, but with more interesting spotting on the legs, and also has traits of the alanis, once again with more interesting stuff happening in the front arms and feet. I do agree that it would be easy to exploit this fad of crossing morphs. The only problem is honesty, and greed. If someone wanted to buy a Azurues from some1 and the seller had a cross of a blue sip and an azureus and sold it to the buyer as an azureus just to make a quik buck. Thats a problem i think, but if the seller told the buyer i dont have azureus but i have a cross of an azureus and blue sip, i dont see that much of a harm...as long as people know what they are getting it should be ok, but then you have to trust that person that you sold them to wont try to sell them as something else....regardless it has happened before and will continue to happen, not much we can do about it but try to be as honest as we can.
- once again i dont see the need to actually cross morphs besides curiosity/educational purposes...i too think there are enough morphs and species out there that we know of as wild caught morphs out there... 
-last but not least i thought this was quite interesting, out of all the froglets that have morphed out from the crosses none have died or had sls or any problems for that matter, but i have had quite a few problems with my azureus froglets, sls, runts, wont eat... all tads are kept in the same spot same water with same food/temp...just thought this was kind of interesting, not sure exactly where i was going with this post, just giving my two cents 
have a good night 
Troy


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## Kevin1234 (Oct 12, 2008)

Interesting observation there troy.....hybrid vigor. I work extensively with plants and its the exact same case. Seedlings will grow like weeds compared to an asexually propagated plant. Same thing with animals that is why they don't have any problems. 

Kevin


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## RedEyeTroyFrog (Jan 25, 2008)

interesting...


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## Ontariofrogger1973 (Oct 18, 2008)

frogsanddogs said:


> I have also noticed that a very high percentage of dart frog hobbyists often tend to work in or have a heavy biology/ science/ research background... I wonder if this isn't a contributing factor...


haha so true, i kno i am... i love the way nature makes animal, espcially darts. for some reason when i go to expos or shows and i see all these morphs and eveything it just sort of takes away from the animal. instead of it being natural it becomes almost " synthetic" but obviously not the real meaning of that... but anyways im glad they darts are for the most part staying true to their lines..


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

The keepers background is interesting. I wish i could see exactly what percent have a biology or science background. I dont. I actually am a history/anthropology guy myself.

Which believe it or not, in anthropology you see alot of talk of hybridization and crossing breeding in respects to hominid evolution


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

See also: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/3642-what-problem-hybridization.html
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/27177-hybrids-poll.html


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## Cole Grover (Aug 29, 2008)

The keeper background issue is an interesting one.... I have a science background. 

Let me first say that I only keep a limited number of Dendrobatids - the main focus of my captive collection is North American Colubrid snakes (mostly milk snakes and gray-banded kings), which I breed locality-specific. I'm what people would call a "purist" in other herp-keeping circles. It is the exact "no-hybrid" mentality of the majority of froggers that has gained my respect and involvment in this section of the hobby. I think it's from my impression of respect for the animal and it's natural history that this tendency stems. 

-Cole


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

this is a controversial topic, the designer reptiles taht are in the hobby are from the same species just different color morhps and or pattern, not crossing different species together to create a new one, if you are looking for variety, then stick to Tincts they will give you pletnty to choose from.


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

I'm not looking for any type of hybrid. I keep intermedius and pumilio...they are plenty colorful for me.

I see snake hybridization as akin to mixing pumilio morphs to get a favorable color. I know this is frowned upon, but again i would like to see the percentage of people with science background in the hobby and if we have more then other reptile hobbiests.

However this is not a topic on weather or not hybridization is acceptable, but on why our hobby has not been lured in by it


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## Cole Grover (Aug 29, 2008)

MrGerbik,

Snake hybridization is like frog hybridization. Crossing localities in snakes is like crossing localities in frogs. Breeding a Loma Partida Dendrobates [Oophaga] pumilio to a Cayo de Agua D. pumilio is akin to crossing a Christmas Mountains Lampropeltis alterna to a Highway 277 L. alterna. Breeding a cornsnake to a L. alterna is akin to breeding a D. ventrimaculatus to a D. reticulatus. Species hybrids are different that lines or localities crossed WITHING a species. 

Now, back to the point of your post... Dart frog keeping is still in it's infancy (at least in the US) compared to other herp groups. I'd also not go as far as to say that hyrbridization has not happened in the hobby - others have shown that outside the "circle of trust" found on this forum, it does, and with some regularity. This is self evident when reading classified ads on other websites. Beyond that, I'd repeat the the hobbyist background is an interesting topic.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I think by and large it's the views of the people on this forum. As others have said hybridization does happen you just won't see it much here.

From what I have seen over the last few months of being on this board is that the members here are more scientifically and conservationally inclined. Even if everyone knew that their frogs would never be re-released to the wild I don't think that would change anything. The fact is that many here are involved in some sort of conservation and therefore are more interested in preserving the natural state of a frog that may disapear from the wild completely than they are interested in tinkering around and seeing "what they can make".

I myself have a bit of a similar view. I don't really go for the albinos or other designer animals. I'd rather see what nature has to offer as more often than not there is a reason for the animal to be the way it is.

Another thought here is that alot of people put alot of effort into their vivariums to create a more natural environment. This seems like it would have some effect as to whether you would want to put a "natural" so to speak frog in there or some cross / hybrid that someone cooked up.

With snakes and even many lizards you see the use of alot of unnatural cages rather than habitats. For alot of lizards there's a reason for this (many will shred anything).

I think it is a mixture of conditions and I do think that, while not isolated to this community, you will find that the members of dendroboard for the most part are more interested in a frogs natural habitat, their status in the wild, and other conservation / scientific topics that tend to be more interesting than if a person aquired 2 different frogs threw them in a tank and said "ok go!".


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## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Very interesting points brought up there. Froggers do indeed seem more inclined to create a corner of the forest in their homes. Snake keepers as far as i see are very basic with their enclosures.

When the only showpiece is the snake i guess its really important to make sure it has that "wow" factor. 

Dart keepers are different. Although the frog is the centerpiece ,the enclousure is also part of the allure. The frog is amazing but so is its home. Therefor maybe we are less inclined to go for "extreme" colorhybrids


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