# pumilo experiment



## Reding E (Sep 20, 2010)

My daughter has a pair of bastimentos pumilo, that have produced several offspring over the last year. We pulled a tadpole out that had fallen from a film canister onto the bottom out of the tank. They have several more eggs which will be ready, and probably some already in a bromeliad. I know that pumilo are egg feeders, and we were going to try and feed the tad some eggs from other frogs in my collection. Does it matter what species and if the egg is fertilized? I realize the success rate will be very low...just wondering of others' experiences with this.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

I am cruising dendroboard on my phone right now or I would paste the link for you but.....run a search for " sylvaticus alternative". You will find a thread by rmelancon that will have some good info for you. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Reding E (Sep 20, 2010)

Found the post using that search- the good news is they artificially raised some froglets. The bad news is using other pumilio eggs. I don't have any other pumilo and most of the other frogs are larger species. Maybe imitator eggs...I'm going to try and see what happens. Also- it seemed like A LOT of eggs were fed to the tad. A dozen a week mentioned in that other thread seems like a lot. My daughter estimates her basti doesn't feed the tads in her tank that often or that many at a time. Although she doesn't watch them 24/7....


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

You can put tad back and the parents would never know


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm currently raising some Pumilio tads on an assortment of different foods excluding eggs of any kind. 2 weeks into the experiment and they are all doing fine. I'm starting to wonder if anyone has ever tried raising them without feeding them eggs....


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

You could try letting the imitators raise it.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

MrFusion said:


> I'm currently raising some Pumilio tads on an assortment of different foods excluding eggs of any kind. 2 weeks into the experiment and they are all doing fine. I'm starting to wonder if anyone has ever tried raising them without feeding them eggs....


Yes many times, mostly accounts from Europe in which the tads were fed for months and never morphed. Don't let that stop you though, there have been many advancements in this hobby perhaps you can discover the next. Keep us posted on your progress.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

motydesign said:


> You can put tad back and the parents would never know


That's a pretty definitive statement. How many times have you had success doing just that and can you go into a little bit of detail as to how everything played out for you. I only ask because from my own personal experience...it hasn't ever really worked out so well.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

MrFusion said:


> I'm currently raising some Pumilio tads on an assortment of different foods excluding eggs of any kind. 2 weeks into the experiment and they are all doing fine. I'm starting to wonder if anyone has ever tried raising them without feeding them eggs....


can you elaborate on what you are feeding?


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## motydesign (Feb 27, 2011)

randommind said:


> That's a pretty definitive statement. How many times have you had success doing just that and can you go into a little bit of detail as to how everything played out for you. I only ask because from my own personal experience...it hasn't ever really worked out so well.


Random, your right that statement sounded like a fact..my appologizes for the quick response. Recently I had washed a tad out of a brom, got it back in and had no issues, eggs continued to be deposited. I didn't even think that would have been a issue .... But maybe I got lucky?


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

markpulawski said:


> Yes many times, mostly accounts from Europe in which the tads were fed for months and never morphed. Don't let that stop you though, there have been many advancements in this hobby perhaps you can discover the next. Keep us posted on your progress.


 Hmmm, that's very interesting. Was any of this documented or posted on a forum? I'd really like to read through different methods other people have tried if at all possible. Thanks for the encouragement!


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Most of this came from books published in nthe 90's before online forums became prevalent though I am sure with enough searching or making inquiries across the pond you could come up with the info. I have a couple old books giving accounts of these efforts, I'll see if I can find the specific info.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

I believe robbs site had a writeup about his efforts, Mark


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

markpulawski said:


> Most of this came from books published in nthe 90's before online forums became prevalent though I am sure with enough searching or making inquiries across the pond you could come up with the info. I have a couple old books giving accounts of these efforts, I'll see if I can find the specific info.


i remember when i was 18 and little was known about darts compared to the hobby today. I read in several books about how egg feeder tads were fed powder eggs in a bowl, but the water had to be cleaned shortly after as well as bee pollen all with little success, but that was the best at the time, i am working with some Sylvatica tads a friend gave me and feeding them pumilio eggs, i will let you guys know how that goes as time goes by, its only been a week so far.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

stemcellular said:


> I believe robbs site had a writeup about his efforts, Mark


 Can you direct me to his page please?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

robbster.com

rmelancon is his SN here


i'll echo what mark said. when obligates were common little was known about breeding behaviors and many people tried countless ways to raise tads outside of parental care. the majority of recent advancement has been due to leaving this pipe dream behind and focusing on providing the parents with proper care to ensure healthy offspring are raised.

also you may need to remove the surrogate eggs from the outer gel before feeding and even if the tad(s) seem to be doing fine i suspect that deficiencies will become apparent only nearing metamorphosis. many tads will gladly accept chicken egg yolk but few make it out without serious issues that result in their subsequent death.

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just to add to the discussion. Different amphibians even closely related ones can have different numbers of membranes as well as different strengths of those membranes. Obligate egg feedering tadpoles do have some adaptations of thier mouth parts that allow them to access the interior of the feeder eggs when provided but we should also consider that it is possible that the feeder eggs are also adapted for the tadpoles to be able to consume them. I am unaware that any studies documenting this as of yet (if someone knows of a study I would love to have the reference). This has been reported anecdotally as there have been a variety of trials over the years between hobbyists and institutions (use of auratus eggs, eggs of leopard frogs, the eggs of Cynops ssp). In some of these the eggs were readily taken once the egg was removed from the membranes with decent growth and success (Cynops ssp, and if I remember correctly auratus), while others did not fare so well (leopard frog). 

There are also some reports from institutions (but not recorded in the literature) that when necropsied the digestive tracts of the obligate egg feeders also contained other potential foods such as fruit flies. The level of nutrition that the tadpole may derive from such materials is unknown. 

Some comments,

Ed


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## MonarchzMan (Oct 23, 2006)

randommind said:


> That's a pretty definitive statement. How many times have you had success doing just that and can you go into a little bit of detail as to how everything played out for you. I only ask because from my own personal experience...it hasn't ever really worked out so well.


There are a number of instances where surrogate parents have been used for pumilio. I have friends who, at least last I spoke with them, are trying some tadpole switching experiments with different morphs to see if mate preference changes based on who raised them.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

I accidentally pulled a mancreek tad while cutting a brom pup for a friend. There were already 3 eggs in the cup with him. I fed it 3 vent eggs per week. Luckily I had a pair of Iquitos vents that layed 3-4 eggs weekly. I also put in a couple Spectrum fish food pellets at the same time. I don't know if it ate the pellets or not. Sorry I can't be of more help, I was more interested in keeping the tad alive than conducting an experiment. The tad morphed out and I put it back into the parent tank. I don't know if it made it after that because I had a couple other froglets that morphed out about the same time and I lost track of which one was the hand raised one.


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## wiedemey (Jan 23, 2010)

I artificially raised a Bastimentos tadpole the following way: For the first couple of weeks (while the tadpole was still tiny) I fed chicken egg yolk which I thickened with a spoonful of Herptivite. At each feeding (1-2 times/week), I put the tadpole in a petri dish and added a few drops of yolk. After about 1h, I removed the tad and put it back in its regular container. When it had doubled in size, I added tinctorius eggs to the diet (I'm sure thumbnail eggs are way easier - see phender's post). The jelly was removed completely with a scalpel and the egg was carefully rolled on a paper towel. This supposedly damages the membrane enough for the tad to access the egg's content. I alternated between chicken yolk and tinc eggs and the tad morphed out fine (albeit with a delay compared to its naturally raised siblings). It's still doing well now (after about 1 year). Can't really recommend this technique, though, because it's extremely time-consuming.


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Those accounts seem to agree with the previous experiences regarding the morph types that will come out alright with artificial rearing on diets other than pumilio eggs. 

If I remember right, there were a fair number of successes with bastis, almirante/mancreek, and el dorado, but touchier pumilio morphs and other species such as histos did not fare as well.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

This has some discussions of why chicken yolks don't work well for the tadpoles http://www.caza.ca/media/Pdf/Conser...age/amphibian_nutrition_report_april_2008.pdf 

Ed


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