# First Frogs: Problems already, please help!



## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

I acquired my first frogs about a month ago. I custom built two 36x24x24 vivs, and wanted frogs that would do well in same-variety groups. I just happened to meet a breeder who was moving and couldn't keep her P. bicolors and R. benedictas, so I got 4 of the first, and 6 of the little ones. I loved them from day one. I almost immediately got eggs from the bicolors, and heard a male calling a few times. The benedictas were supposedly breeding for the previous owner before I got them. They were housed together previously as I have them, but in larger numbers and smaller quarters.

Anyway, last week, I found one of the bicolors flat on its back, dead by the front glass. I had noticed no symptoms at all beforehand. Yesterday I found another dead one, again without having shown any symptoms. I have no idea what may have killed them, or if it is an ongoing issue which will kill more. I need help in diagnosing this issue, please. I'll be happy to answer all the questions over again, but to save some time,

Here is a link to my build thread: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/295618-something-bit-different.html

Here is a link where I first brought this issue up and discussed it with another member: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/315826-first-frogs-lack-activity.html

I really thought I had educated myself on the topic of keeping frogs, but apparently that isn't the case. After the conversation above, I think that either my frogs have stopped eating for some reason, or there is something toxic in their environment that is slowly poisoning them, or both. I do see my benedictas stalking around in the leaves, and occasionally snapping up a fruit fly. I have never observed my bicolors eating. I have snakes that will not eat while you are watching, but wait till your back is turned. I just figured the frogs were shy, too, and surely they must be eating, right? What would cause an adult frog to just stop eating? Or am I missing something else? Thanks for your ideas. Jim


----------



## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

If I were in your position, I would be making an appointment with my exotics veterinarian, and doing some testing. Fecals and skin swabs will be a good place to start if you suspect disease. You vet will want to know as much as possible about their environment and history as well. I strongly recommend seeking veterinary care. When they are dying, it is urgent.


----------



## Serafim (Mar 29, 2017)

I would recommend removing the remaining 2 and putting them in a simple QT tank. I am new to dart frogs myself but have had many years experience with reptiles and amphibians. The vet could rule out disease and the QT tankcould rule out chemical leaching. Keep us posted


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There are a number of potential routes of death in your scenario ... 

Some husbandry related possibilities require some more information,

1. If you monitored the humidity in the enclosure, what was/is it on average 
2. If you monitored temperature in the enclosure, what was the maximum temperature? 
3. What kind of silicone did you use to coat the materials? 
4. How long was the enclosure set-up before you added the frogs? 

5. You removed the fans due to not being able to control the vibration effect, did you modify the ventilation to take into account the decreased air exchange? 

As for toxicity of styrofoam and polycarbonate, did you read the thread Doug linked you to in your build thread? It doesn't appear that you did as you asked for proof for problems specifically with frog health and there were links to peer reviewed published articles documenting health issues with the materials and frogs. That is one of the things about peer reviewed published articles is that as long as the science was done correctly the information contained in them doesn't expire... so for you to pass it off as questionable because its on the net, would have made me drop out of the thread as well since it makes it clear you didn't bother with the potential risks documented by the literature. 

Now people have used them without apparent problems in builds but that can be dependent on how their enclosures were built, sealed and operated. Consider that if you had a relatively newly manufactured sheets, they can leach styrene or off-gas styrene which by can have a mortality rate of 100% due to continued exposure (see https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...67M00YYeBMnz3UVHQ&sig2=iRqqvi0PqY-Be_acCoX0Zw for an example). Given that it is toxic to aquatic invertebrates as well as vertebrates we have pretty sure footing that it would kill frogs under the right conditions. 

I'm suspecting its a simpler reason for the deaths but I'll wait until more information comes in.... 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

1. Humidity: Very high, but no accurate numbers. I am using a Vivarium Electronics digital themometer/hygrometer. The temp readings seem to be decent, but anything over 50% rh, and the readout jumps to 99% and stays there. You can feel the humidity when you open the door, and I do get condensation on the glass.
2. Max temp probably 75. The enclosures are in a dedicated critter room I have in my basement. Reptiles all have individual heat, both frog enclosures are unheated. They were originally around 65-68F, but it was suggested that I raise the temp into the 70s. I did this by adding a space heater to the room. The enclosures now read from 71-74F. 
3. I did not coat anything with silicone. I coated the foam insulation with drylok masonry waterproofing. I did use some silicone to help seal between the glass doors, and to attach the poly roof panels. All was intended and labeled as aquarium-safe. 
4. Not long. I was a few weeks from completing both vivariums when I learned about the frogs becoming available. The breeder who owned them was moving and could not take them. Her sister-in-law owns a pet store that I frequent and sell snake hatchlings to. She brought the frogs in to sell, but I wasn't ready yet. I had the frogs held for me, but it took several more weeks before I got the vivariums done and planted. I would go in and observe the frogs, which were eating like pigs, and appeared healthy, but were crowded into very small Exo-terras with few hiding places. I was concerned about the overcrowding and potential stress on them, so got the frogs as soon as possible, figuring they would be better off with fewer numbers and larger quarters.
5. Each viv does have a fan. I just didn't get to use my custom hidden ductwork to house them. Instead, I wrapped each fan in fine mesh and suspended them from the ceiling on rubber bands, pointing towards the glass to reduce condensation. I also have full-width external ventilation below the door, and at the top rear.

Before I started my vivarium builds, I started a thread asking about common materials that might be hazardous to frogs. I got very few responses. Once I started the build, I started a new thread, but it was some time before Doug mentioned the issues with polystyrene and polycarbonate. I don't remember him saying they were toxic, but rather endocrine inhibitors, causing issues with tadpole and reproductive development, likely in later generations. I did take that seriously, but could find no other online evidence of this, which is why I asked if others had had issues. As far as I remember, no one responded. All of these materials are sealed in my vivs, except for the polycarbonate top piece. For several reasons not related to chemical leaching, I can say that I do not recommend this build method, and am not likely to ever repeat it. Any advantages the products have are outweighed by their disadvantages, regardless of any potential chemical leaching. As far as the age of the foam, I cannot say. I spent over 7 months building the two vivs, and they have been sealed multiple times. It seems to me that the symptoms I am observing are not likely to be caused by polystyrene. It is much more severe and abrupt. I do not remember ever seeing my bicolors eat, even one fruit fly. The viv is full of them, and they've all been misted clean of supplements. THEY seem to be thriving and enjoying life in my viv.

The link you sent is concerning to me. What is the difference between styrene, and polystyrene? If I go out and grab a couple of temporary QT enclosures, how can I know they are safe? The most obvious choices are made of new plastic. I have a couple of second-hand aquariums, but do not know what they might be contaminated with.

I am worried that the cause of death could be starvation, even though they never actually looked "skinny". My benedictas do seem to be getting thinner, however, and both vivs seem to have a lot of flies crawling around. Your comments are much appreciated. I do want what's best for the frogs, and I have already been contemplating replacement vivariums for them. I just wasn't expecting such immediate issues. I agree with the "simpler reason" you suggested, but do not know what it might be.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It is far too soon for it to be due to starvation. Starvation can easily take more than a couple of months as most of the frogs in the hobby (much like many reptiles) can slow their metabolism in response to periods of food shortage and they tend to be obese to morbidly obese... 

As polystyrene is made from styrene, not all styrene reacts and this is where you can get off gassing and leachate from the materials. 

Given your description of the humidity and how the one frog was found (positional), you probably overheated them. If the humidity is too high, then the frogs cannot compensate via evaporative cooling and Phyllobates bicolor and P. terribilis were long considered sensitive to temperatures in the mid-to upper seventies and even higher was generally considered a guaranteed death sentence. As there is a good chance for individual variations in response to higher temperatures, there is a good chance it was too hot for them. That stretched out position is common due to husbandry problems like CO2 poisoning and thermal deaths. 

With respect to leachates, the easiest thing to do is just get a small glass aquarium and cover part of the screen with a sheet of glass (you can tape it into place to stop it from sliding off and breaking (which I've done often enough)). In the interim, a ten gallon would be fine to get you over the crisis. 

The other frogs may be fine due to slight variations in the enclosures. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thank you Ed. If you read the threads I linked to, I was told that my vivs were too cold! They were mainly in the mid-upper 60s, and the animals seemed inactive (to me, the beginner). When I asked online, I was told I needed to be in the 70s, at least, so I got the space heater out. My thermometer/stupid hygrometer has a high/low button, which tells me my highest temp was 74.8F. It's hard to believe that would kill them. They live near the equator! The other two seem fine for now, but I've still never observed them eating. On the other hand, despite my benedictas appearing thin, they seem to love climbing and pooping all over the front glass, like they're working on a privacy screen. This proves that at least one of them is eating very well!


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

backafter20 said:


> Thank you Ed. If you read the threads I linked to, I was told that my vivs were too cold! They were mainly in the mid-upper 60s, and the animals seemed inactive (to me, the beginner). When I asked online, I was told I needed to be in the 70s, at least, so I got the space heater out. My thermometer/stupid hygrometer has a high/low button, which tells me my highest temp was 74.8F.


Yes as a general statement they were too cold particularly when compared to the temperatures that the frogs would be exposed to in the wild but (and I'll cover that in the next section). 




backafter20 said:


> It's hard to believe that would kill them. They live near the equator! The other two seem fine for now, but I've still never observed them eating. On the other hand, despite my benedictas appearing thin, they seem to love climbing and pooping all over the front glass, like they're working on a privacy screen. This proves that at least one of them is eating very well!


Your falling into the trap that has plagued many frog keepers for many many years, the idea that because they live near the equator they should automatically take higher temperatures but that is only true if you take into account the humidity. Think about the interaction of humidity and temperature on the ability of an animal to manage its body temperature. For animals that use evaporative cooling as a physiological response to temperature (and frogs fall into this category), the higher the humidity, the less evaporative cooling can reduce the body temperature. This is why if your maximizing humidity (over 90%) then your in the zone for eliminating evaporative cooling completely. 

You mention that you can feel the humidity when you open the cage which is an indication that the humidity is very high (and I would suspect that your probe may be off) and even though you say that the tank didn't get [email protected] degrees for the frogs it was functionally much warmer and potentially in the lethal zone. 
There are some other aspects that can change the ability to tolerate those temperatures such as prior acclimation but that is going to make a very long discussion. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## LRB (Jan 22, 2017)

following this thread as I am reading some very good information from the replies.


----------



## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

Ok, the last remaining bicolor is in a 20L aquarium with nothing but sphagnum moss, fresh leaf litter, some clean plastic plants, and some cork/coco shell hiding places. She seems to be doing fine, but so did the other three right before they died. I still haven't observed her eating. I do see the benedictas snapping up things I can't see, probably springtails or melanogaster. A couple of them are actually fat, probably females. I set up a QT tank for them as well, but just couldn't bring myself to tear apart their viv looking for them. (the bicolor was pretty easy to find) I have no evidence that any of the little guys have died or that anyone has been exposed to anything actually toxic. (although something has obviously caused sudden death of the bicolors) I've started taking notes on the individual benedicta patterns and recording when I see them. Hopefully, they're all six still ok. Your collective advice is welcome and appreciated.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I wouldn't worry about not seeing it eat at this time, not only do the frogs in the hobby tend to be obese, but they can slow their metabolic rate in times of lower food availability, and given the recent moves and possible environmental stressors, I would actually expect the animal to not do much when observed. 

Set up a feeding station and keep the humidity somewhere between 60 and 85% and let the frog settle in without messing with it too much. 

some comments 

Ed


----------



## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

That's exactly what I did. She was hopping all over, exploring. There were several very good hiding places where she could be completely hidden, but she stayed out in the open most of the time. Last night she was doing great, but not eating. This afternoon, I got home from work, and she was dead, legs spread out behind her like she died in mid-leap.

Lots of people keep these animals, and lots of people have luck with them. My experience is short, but I've been reading DB for about two years now. I've kept fish, including saltwater, birds, reptiles, all kinds of mammals, since I was a kid. I'm not a kid anymore, but I'm really discouraged with these frogs. I spent a wad of money and a crap-ton of time trying to do things right. Now I'm not sure what I'll do.


----------



## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your problems with the bicolors... it sure is sad and discouraging seeing a frog die. Sounds like your bene's are doing well though, so you can take comfort that you're doing things right with them. As for the bicolors, there are so many things that it could be, it's really hard for others to diagnose sometimes - especially just by reading and not being able to see things in person. Have you done any testing on the deceased frogs? I would start there if you haven't already. If it were internal issues like parasites or disease, your tank could be ok. If the tests came back clean, you know it was likely environmental and can look further into what problems your tank might have. 

Did you clean all your plants really well before adding them? I didn't read through all your linked threads, so forgive me if you covered that already. Maybe there is a nasty bug or spider in the tank that could have bitten them? Did you ever use any chemicals to clean the tanks? 

It _seems_ like your temps and humidity look ok, and might be confirmed since your benes are doing ok. My guess would be something in the tank - leached chemicals, poisonous insect, uncured/bad silicone, etc. That, or they had some kind of internal problems. I'd get them tested.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

First things first, don't be too upset, this sort of thing while a little more uncommon today has happened to many others with experience in frogs (and other taxa) in the past (I've had similar problems in the past (although given how long I've done some of this, a little further back than most). If you enjoyed the frogs, take it in stride and consider trying again with frogs that you like (even bicolors if really liked them) make some changes and go forward. Keep in mind that we are working from a list of probable causes but in some ways this cannot be done without a detailed workup and some sleuthing, what we are doing is looking at things based on the prior experience and reports by other hobbyists. 




backafter20 said:


> That's exactly what I did. She was hopping all over, exploring. There were several very good hiding places where she could be completely hidden, but she stayed out in the open most of the time.


This sort of behavior really isn't exploring per se, its actually the frog trying to locate cues to its home territory and an indication of some stress but unfortunately that specific stress couldn't be avoided given that there could have been some environmental issues (or disease) in the original enclosure which made the move mandatory. 



backafter20 said:


> Last night she was doing great, but not eating. This afternoon, I got home from work, and she was dead, legs spread out behind her like she died in mid-leap.


As I noted above, the timeline without feeding wasn't sufficient to harm the frogs (from anorexia) and it isn't uncommon for newly acquired frogs to not feed when people are around, at best it could be considered an indication of some kind of stress (example environmental). Don't focus on the posture too much. 




backafter20 said:


> Lots of people keep these animals, and lots of people have luck with them. My experience is short, but I've been reading DB for about two years now. I've kept fish, including saltwater, birds, reptiles, all kinds of mammals, since I was a kid. I'm not a kid anymore, but I'm really discouraged with these frogs. I spent a wad of money and a crap-ton of time trying to do things right. Now I'm not sure what I'll do.


It happens, don't get too discouraged. One of the things is that the care of much of these frogs has been reduced to "recipes" which can be successful but there can be variations in it as "outdated" information can still be included in these recipes. One of the lingering bits of that information is to seal up the enclosures relatively tightly to maximize humidity but that puts the enclosure at risk for thermal issues. The response in the past was to try and keep the tanks below 75 and to really panic if it ever got close to 89 F. 

See the discussions here

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/4589-temperature-climate.html

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/43883-frogs-high-temps.html

some comments 

Ed


----------



## backafter20 (Mar 11, 2011)

Thanks for everyone's comments. Here's a pic I took of the last one the night before I found her dead. At least her tads are developing nicely, about ready to hatch, and the benedictas seem to be doing ok.


----------



## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

Well this is a discouraging thread, being that I'm not far from getting my first frogs, I'm reading your posts thinking, "Well, that could be me in a couple months." 

One consideration that seems may have evaded your repliers, is the possibility of the frogs ingesting toxins second hand. Is there anything living in there nibbling your plants, which in turn may have been eaten by the frogs? Perhaps the mycelium of a poisonous mushroom is spreading through your substrate that the springtails happily feast on, which are then consumed by the frogs. 

I briefly scanned over your build, and immediately noted your intention to use XPS foam & Titebond 3 (or maybe you chose a different adhesive in the end- I didn't catch that). I built some fake rocks out of XPS which required me to glue a stack of 3 panels together. I tried Titebond 3, but even after 2 weeks of curing, my suspicion that there was no way the glue could ever cure in the middle was confirmed. I pryed the panels apart, and only the outside inch or so had cured, sealing off the rest, and the center of every panel was just as wet as the day I clamped them. Even so, if you have wet glue (of some sort) in your build somewhere because it's sealed itself off, then well- it's sealed off right? It's hard to imagine even frogs being that sensitive... 

Good luck man. I really hope you get this figured out, and post when you do.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ed said:


> The response in the past was to try and keep the tanks below 75 and to really panic *if it ever got close to 89 F*.


The above part in bold should have been "it if ever got close to 80 F". 

some comments 

Ed


----------

