# question about leg colors on vents



## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

After reading up on the bronze auratus thread that's been ongoing it has me wondering about my blue leg vents. I understand that the blue leg and grey leg is supposed to be a variation within the morph, but will blue leg parents through grey leg offspring? Is if so, can I assume that it is not frowned upon to mix the two variations together?


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I think this all depends... Much has changed in the lines of vents that are now in the hobby so you have to be rather cautious with what you have.

The older line of vents in the US are as you described but the newer lines normally breed true to the parents colors. At least in my experience.

The care sheet does a good job of breaking down the differences:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/care-sheets/13016-dendrobates-ventrimaculatus-intermediate.html


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks Kyle. I guess I need to track down the lineage of my frogs a bit further and see how old the lines are. I had read the care sheet here at DB and it doesn't really clarify much on the blue/grey legs. "French Guiana Yellow - The most common in the hobby. Although often separated into "blue leg" and "grey leg", these are not true morphs but rather just variation within the morph."


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Tim

I think the care sheet does clarify as best it can. Assume the old lines of FG vents are known population variability. The hobby didnt keep strick track of early vent imports to my knowledge. Tor Linbo may have some specific import dated animals, and Mark Pepper has a 'line' of FG vents that still can be found 'separated' from the others [I keep some myself] But... is it necessary to keep them all separated. I dont think so. 'Blue leg' and 'grey leg', are just ways to sell someones frogs. 

Newer vent lines have more specific site data and would be best to be registered in TWI/ASN imo and managed that way.

Best,


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks Shawn, that's kinda what I was thinking about these guys as far as the known locality. I'm still a bit confused as to whether or not blue leg parents will produce a mix or just blue leg offspring. I don't plan on mixing the colors, but I'm interested to know.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I think it is kinda like 2 tall adults 'breeding' to make tall children. A type of 'line' or 'trait' breeding if you will.

My group makes 'mostly' grey legged offspring, but many have been blue as well...

Here's an example.
Juvi









parent









belly









that appears to be all the pics I've ever taken of a FG vent

Anyway, you can see there is some variability in there. These are the Mark Pepper line, originally from Scott in ME

Perhaps others have had different experiences?

Shawn


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks Shawn. I guess that answers my question. I kinda thought that even though locality data for the early imports was unknown that maybe the leg color was due to the locations they were collected. Either that's not the case or they've been bred together enough that they know produce both colors. Thanks for the info and I'd be interested in others experience about this topic as well.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

My take on Vents (with info from Tor): Vent Hybrids??? JoshsFrog’s Weblog

The legs do not breed true and the use of blue and grey on the part of Josh's Frogs is simply to maintain the "line" of frogs as the original breeder labeled them (our blues come from Sean Stewart and our grey come from Quality Captives via Bill Heath).

For us, there is noticable difference in the two "lines" behavior/breeding.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for that info Josh. I actually purchased my vents from you so that saved me researching the line on my frogs. It sounds like you still haven't found an answer though. It's also interesting that you see a difference in the two lines that you have even though they don't seem to breed true to color. Of your two lines what characteristics are you seeing that differ?


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

We keep all our vents in trios and have a few groups of each of the two (two generations too). Blues breed more regularly (but with lower clutches). The blue tads seem to be more resilent as well. I also find the greys in the film canisters (swimming) more often than I do the blues.

I don't know how the blue and grey represent the lines Tor says were imported. I guess that is a question for QC and Stewart...


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Josh,

btw ours are FG vents...our vents produce both types. Even a gray legged vent still has a blue tint. I don't label our vents blue legged or gray legged vents. So, if I had to label your vents from Bill Heath - my call would be blue legs, because regardless the color, they throw both & there always seems to be a blue hue to the frog's legs. Just some are brighter than others. 

The line of vents we have are the 'old' line & were originally from Todd Kelly. I now have offspring from those that breed. 



joshsfrogs said:


> My take on Vents (with info from Tor): Vent Hybrids??? JoshsFrog’s Weblog
> 
> The legs do not breed true and the use of blue and grey on the part of Josh's Frogs is simply to maintain the "line" of frogs as the original breeder labeled them (our blues come from Sean Stewart and our grey come from Quality Captives via Bill Heath).
> 
> For us, there is noticable difference in the two "lines" behavior/breeding.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Thanks for posting melissa.


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## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

There was a post on this a while back. People are going to call them what they want....so I hope you don't think I called you out. 

I had wondered if one of the lines were from us, but I hadn't remembered selling any directly to you.

Tor has done some good research on the thumbs, but I think we will find in the end we have new lines (understory, inibco) & the old ones (that have been passed around.

At one time we even had the hypo ones Tor mentioned in your thread....but when cleaning their q-container, my cat decided to play with them in the 16oz one I had placed them in temporarily. The male croaked (no pun intended) on the spot. I was never able to breed them, but it was my understanding they were tough to get out of the water healthy.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

No offense taken. I don't think you "called me out" at all. I just checked my correspondence from Bill (over 2 years ago) and he in fact never calls them grey legged. Not sure where I picked up that label. I have always labeled the line as coming from you and sarah though. I'll update the listings I have.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

So I guess that the blue/grey legs are basically the same frogs if I interpret what I read properly. Unless labeled with the location data they are more or less like the leucs. Thanks for all of the info on this subject.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

jubjub47 said:


> So I guess that the blue/grey legs are basically the same frogs if I interpret what I read properly. Unless labeled with the location data they are more or less like the leucs. Thanks for all of the info on this subject.


yes, I believe that is correct. My "old" group of vents would throw both blue and grey legged offspring. Though as times the intentisy of the blue would seem to change. For some reason they almost all would look blue in the morning. Some would fade to grey in the afternoons and some would stay blue. Back in the day "vent" was used as a junk basket for any of the small vent looking thumbs. Not like today with the distinct local data we have from Understory etc.


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

jubjub47 said:


> Thanks Kyle. I guess I need to track down the lineage of my frogs a bit further and see how old the lines are. I had read the care sheet here at DB and it doesn't really clarify much on the blue/grey legs. "French Guiana Yellow - The most common in the hobby. Although often separated into "blue leg" and "grey leg", these are not true morphs but rather just variation within the morph."


If you are interested in the vents I am working on a TMP for the species. Haven't gotten to far yet with it because I have been swamped with work but it looks like a in a month I will have much more time. Anyways if you are interested in tracking down the lineage we could work together on this. Let me know. You can pm me


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