# Cocofiber obstruction



## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

I hope my 2 cents helps someone. I lost a frog recently, a breeder, very healthy and then dead without any reason. I sent the frog in for a necropsy, and the animal has ingested a lot of cocofiber substrate. It got impacted and died from a bowel obstruction. I have since changed my substrates and added more sphagnum, but FYI to those who use all soil or cocofiber substrates. Be wary.

(split from http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34446)


----------



## a Vertigo Guy (Aug 17, 2006)

ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:


> I hope my 2 cents helps someone. I lost a frog recently, a breeder, very healthy and then dead without any reason. I sent the frog in for a necropsy, and the animal has ingested a lot of cocofiber substrate. It got impacted and died from a bowel obstruction. I have since changed my substrates and added more sphagnum, but FYI to those who use all soil or cocofiber substrates. Be wary.


Crap, should cocofiber be reconsidered as a substrate material? Ive never thought of it getting to the point of impaction but I use it extensively in all my vivs and the ones with leaf litter have nothing between it and the frogs.... :?


----------



## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Dave, can you give some details about how the viv was setup? Like was there anything over the cocofiber, or was it the upper most layer?


----------



## frog_newbie (Sep 5, 2007)

I just use a 50/50 coco fiber mix with nothing on top of it, well I have a bit of leaf litter and moss covering maybe half of my tanks. I am new so I probably have not had my darts long enough to really comment. Maybe Ed's comment should be used to start a new thread if this is a real problem. I have been thinking about adding a thin layer of Shag moss to my tanks, unfortunately other types of moss are hard to find or costly here in Canada.


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Dave,

Please give us an update about your tank setups, etc. Theoretically, anything including sphagnum moss could be a potential for a bowel obstruction. An previous injury maybe.

Just because one frog had it, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. I have had frogs that have died with sphagnum moss protruding from their butts. I didn't stop using sphagnum, but paid a little more attention to my cage setup, etc. 

Please give us some more information. Even though the frog died of a bowel obstruction containing cocofiber, what was the cause of the obstruction? Were fibers seen penetrating the intestines? Or was it just there???

Melissa





ED's_Fly_Meat_Inc said:


> I hope my 2 cents helps someone. I lost a frog recently, a breeder, very healthy and then dead without any reason. I sent the frog in for a necropsy, and the animal has ingested a lot of cocofiber substrate. It got impacted and died from a bowel obstruction. I have since changed my substrates and added more sphagnum, but FYI to those who use all soil or cocofiber substrates. Be wary.
> 
> (split from http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=34446)


----------



## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Dave sorry for your lost breeder. Stinks every time, no doubt....

Now for my useless 2 cents...

Is there not DIRT in the WILD :roll: 

Ok, not entirely a constructive statement, but I'd also agree that this 'problem' may be an isolated event. Not every frog is born perfect and meant to stay healthy forever. People die of strange diseases seemingly after many years of 'normal' healthy life, dogs die, cats die..... You get my point. 

This particular animal may have had a congenital intestinal malformation that predisposed it to obstruction, or an actual disease process, ect. or dehydration [or dry coco fibers?] OR it may have really been killed by cocofiber??? 

[Alarmists look the other way] The shear #'s of frogs sitting atop coco fiber at the moment must be staggering...we shouldnt all change our practices...unless we know for sure that the change is really for the better.

Here's to hoping it never happens again though !!

S


----------



## melissa68 (Feb 16, 2004)

Thanks for adding your 2 cents...

Ya, I have lost a breeder before to an impaction. Frog was always straining to go and sat in water all the time. Her abdomen was always hard when I palpated it (using wet gloves & great care). This went on for months - always seeming constipated. She finally died I cut her open to see what was up. 

She had a large area of her bowel that was 4 times the diameter of the rest & had a large obstruction. Because of her behavior I figured it was a long term defect that ran it's course. 

Like us, our animals can have problems. We don't always catch it, and sometimes look at the environment we keep them in as the first cause.

Melis



sports_doc said:


> Dave sorry for your lost breeder. Stinks every time, no doubt....
> 
> Now for my useless 2 cents...
> 
> ...


----------



## Bubble_Man (Nov 11, 2007)

How long does it take for an impacted frog to starve to death? After reading several threads on impaction across several forums, I've always wondered this.


----------



## MonopolyBag (Jun 3, 2007)

Yeah, I think people probably get as many bowl problems as frogs, but only frogs are harder to treat. And again (I agree a lot, not just sucking up) I have to agree with Sports Doc with the "Dirt being in the wild" statement. Frogs will die in the wild too, from little things, so they will in our tanks as well. I think that using coco fiber should be fine, because there is dirt in wild. Makes sense.


----------



## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

With that said I think anything could cause impaction. I also think sphagnum as a substrate is not something that should be considered but for other reasons. I am slowly redoing all of my tanks that were make with sphagnum.


----------



## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I had a female escudo die from getting dry coco fiber impacted in her mouth while eating some springs from a dry culture which I didn`t spray down after feeding it to her. Of course there is dirt in the wild but not all made of undigestible fibers of varying lengths. most soils are packed or have leaf litter atop them and are made from smaller granules or particulates. fibrous shapes like hair tend to clog moreso than round granular particulates.


----------



## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

I am wondering if this is the problem with one of my bicolor terribili. He is skinny on one side, and he has what looks like coco fiber hanging from his anus. when i gently held the end of the thing hanging from his/her backside, it slid out easily for half a centimeter then seemed to be stuck . could he/ she have a prolapsed anus due to impaction? what is the best course of action at this point? should i simply cross my fingers and hope this passes? i don't think holding the end and pulling will help(unless the goal is to rip its guts out), did i mention it doesen't eat well?(since thing is sticking out its butt)


----------



## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

just to update my mint bicolor: i think its a he, and he has started to eat again, although he is skinnier than my other(who i choose to believe is female). he no longer has anything protruding from his anus, and i think i heard him call last night. i have been far more careful removing any cocofiber that may fall into tank during feeding since learning this can be a problem. don't hate me, but i used to pull dying cultures out by the cocofiber and put the whole stinking mess into tank for the frogs to have at remaining flys and larvea. i will not be doing that anymoe. thanks again folks, another lesson learned.


----------



## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

> i have been far more careful removing any cocofiber that may fall into tank during feeding...


Do you really mean long coco fiber or are you talking about excelsior? I think either one of these would be tough for a frog to digest and certainly harder than your typical dirt. Makes another good case for more leaf litter, IMO. 

Rather than pulling apart the FF culture, you could just poke small holes in the lid and let the flies and larve crawl out. Alternately, for cultures that you're targeting for the tank, you could make up some smaller cultures without any coco fiber(excelsior). Using coffee filters or index cards are another possibility. I doubt there'd be much of an impaction risk with those.


----------



## Leucs2008 (Mar 8, 2008)

Kyle, Im wondering why spagnum moss shouldn't be used as a substrate. You said there was some other reasons why you dont use it.


----------

