# Questions Regarding a Tall Epipedobates tricolor Waterfall Vivarium Concept



## Leoito (Mar 4, 2021)

Hey everyone, relatively new (~3 months) dart frog keeper looking to create a larger vivarium for a small colony of Epipedobates tricolor 'Rio'.
My current inspiration comes from a relatively new video that I would love to copy a fair number of elements from (waterfall, water feature with nano fish, extra tall viv, abundance of miniature orchids, etc.) due to my frogs' desire to climb higher than what is provided and recommendations to add a water feature for this species (lightly verified).
Understanding the differences between this setup and my current viv, I have a few sets of questions.

Would a vivarium of the same dimensions (18"x18"x36") with a water feature be a suitable environment for a colony (4-6+) E. tricolor? Even provided a small portion of the bottom space is raised as land, would this still lead to space restrictions if multiple frogs were cohabiting the environment?

Could the height or water pose a hazard for such a small species of dart frog? I would provide floating plants and reduce the number of hard spots further down, but I'm still afraid an E. tricolor could drown or otherwise hurt themself after flinging down as I have often witnessed with my own frogs and their 18 inches of vertical space.
Would a paludarium with less vertical space and more horizontal space work better? (Example)

What would the _ideal _E. tricolor vivarium with a water feature look like? Without a water feature?

Current build (converted 10 gallon glass aquarium flipped vertically) with a pair of Rios has been going well and I do not plan on attempting a larger build for at least another couple of months. These photos are all around at least a few weeks old at this point. (A small thanks if you've made it this far.)








Environmental Conditions Note: humidity ranges between 75% and near 100%; temperature anywhere between 73 and 79 degrees Fahrenheit.


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## FroggerFrog (Jan 11, 2021)

Leoito said:


> Hey everyone, relatively new (~3 months) dart frog keeper looking to create a larger vivarium for a small colony of Epipedobates tricolor 'Rio'.
> My current inspiration comes from a relatively new video that I would love to copy a fair number of elements from (waterfall, water feature with nano fish, extra tall viv, abundance of miniature orchids, etc.) due to my frogs' desire to climb higher than what is provided and recommendations to add a water feature for this species (lightly verified).
> Understanding the differences between this setup and my current viv, I have a few sets of questions.
> 
> ...


My advice is to skip the paludarium. First, the water feature is going to remove a big chunk of their space. The average terrarium doesn’t even come close to the range of exploration of a dart frog so adding a paludarium really wastes space.

Next, the water feature is all aesthetics. Besides tadpole depositing, which tricolors actually do, there is really not many other reasons to add a water feature. It’s really for the owner’s like, not the an essential need for dart frogs.

Then, (essay isn’t it?) this really kind of blends in with number 1 but adding a water feature will force the frogs into the water feature. If they aren’t forced into the water feature, they will stay away, which kind of defeats the purpose of a paludarium in a dart frog tank.

Finally, tricolors will use the whole tank, not just vertical space. I have Anthonyi and have been researching like crazy on other Anthonyi and Tricolor. Tricolor are basically require the same care as Anthonyi, with a bit more difficulty in breeding. My Anthonyi will use every inch of the tank so really, removing a chunk of land will give them less space. Yes, I have two things that tie into my first reason but it shows how a paludarium will reduce land in their tank.

Your terrarium looks awesome, I really like it, so I would be sad if you removed a space with a water feature. YouTube is also not a very useful place for information. I suggest not using social media for advice. Twitter and Facebook were never made for dart frogs anyways. Of course, there are a handful of great helpers on social media platforms but most don’t teach you anything or just put you into the wrong direction.

Oh, welcome to the forum!


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## Bunsincunsin (Feb 11, 2008)

While I think they would certainly utilize the height, I would opt for an enclosure with a larger (at least longer, but not necessarily deeper/wider) footprint.

I kept a trio of _E. tricolor_ 'Cielito' in a 36"x18"x16" (LxWxH) enclosure and they used just about every square inch of it. If I were to keep them again, I would plan for a slightly longer and taller enclosure than what I had - ~40"x20"x24" or so. The enclosure I set them up in had more of a terrestrial layout, and they only occasionally ventured into the upper parts of the tank where the background was - but, again, I think they would utilize any height you give them, especially if it is made accessible to them, as my enclosure was not designed with height in mind.

This enclosure had a small pool that shared the same space as the false-bottom, but the amount of water that was accessible to them was probably only about a gallon's worth of water, at least 1" deep (maybe a bit more at times) at the far corner that was used frequently for depositing larvae. I believe _tricolor_ are commonly associated with small water bodies in nature and so incorporating water in some form like a drip wall or small pool could create a more natural display and stimulate more natural behavioral dynamics from your group. However, I wouldn't recommend a full-blown 'waterfall' and would also recommend against the inclusion of fish, especially in such a small enclosure as an 18"x18"x36". I will also add that _Epipedobates_ are quite fecund and so it may not be in your best interest to include a water body in your design if you aren't too keen on allowing them to breed.

Here are some photos of how I kept my _tricolor_ - I believe this type of terrestrial hardscape layout is a good place to start when considering this genus/species. If you can, try to get a hold of the 'Dendrobatidae - Poison Frogs: The Fantastic Journey Through Ecuador, Peru & Colombia' series books, as they detail _Epipedobates_ habitat quite thoroughly (at least the first volume does, if I remember correctly).


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

This thread links to a paper outlining the many pathogens known to be transmitted between amphibians and fish.


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## Leoito (Mar 4, 2021)

FroggerFrog said:


> My advice is to skip the paludarium. First, the water feature is going to remove a big chunk of their space. The average terrarium doesn’t even come close to the range of exploration of a dart frog so adding a paludarium really wastes space.
> 
> Next, the water feature is all aesthetics. Besides tadpole depositing, which tricolors actually do, there is really not many other reasons to add a water feature.


I believe the use of a water feature for tadpole deposition was the most common reason I saw for the addition of one in my research, but this isn't constant and I otherwise understand why a large one would just become a space the frogs would have ventured in or otherwise used on a regular basis.



FroggerFrog said:


> Your terrarium looks awesome, I really like it, so I would be sad if you removed a space with a water feature. YouTube is also not a very useful place for information. I suggest not using social media for advice. Twitter and Facebook were never made for dart frogs anyways. Of course, there are a handful of great helpers on social media platforms but most don’t teach you anything or just put you into the wrong direction.


Yeah, I encountered a fair deal of information I wouldn't call all too useful 😅; I tend to stray towards to YouTube because I like seeing systems in the build phase and active (everything running) phase. I'll check out some other builds for this genus on Dendroboard to get a feel for what works.



Bunsincunsin said:


> While I think they would certainly utilize the height, I would opt for an enclosure with a larger (at least longer, but not necessarily deeper/wider) footprint.
> 
> I kept a trio of _E. tricolor_ 'Cielito' in a 36"x18"x16" (LxWxH) enclosure and they used just about every square inch of it. If I were to keep them again, I would plan for a slightly longer and taller enclosure than what I had - ~40"x20"x24" or so. The enclosure I set them up in had more of a terrestrial layout, and they only occasionally ventured into the upper parts of the tank where the background was - but, again, I think they would utilize any height you give them, especially if it is made accessible to them, as my enclosure was not designed with height in mind.


My hope is that I can incorporate a decent portion of background space for epiphytes and the frogs' vertical inclinations, but perhaps put this more in balance with the bottom land after what you've provided. The only issue I've run into thus far with finding the right dimensions for a vivarium is my ideal to make use of an Exo Terra or Zoomed model.



Bunsincunsin said:


> This enclosure had a small pool that shared the same space as the false-bottom, but the amount of water that was accessible to them was probably only about a gallon's worth of water, at least 1" deep (maybe a bit more at times) at the far corner that was used frequently for depositing larvae. I believe _tricolor_ are commonly associated with small water bodies in nature and so incorporating water in some form like a drip wall or small pool could create a more natural display and stimulate more natural behavioral dynamics from your group. However, I wouldn't recommend a full-blown 'waterfall' and would also recommend against the inclusion of fish, especially in such a small enclosure as an 18"x18"x36". I will also add that _Epipedobates_ are quite fecund and so it may not be in your best interest to include a water body in your design if you aren't too keen on allowing them to breed.


It's a little hard to see on my end, but I think I see what you mean. I was originally considering a similar opening to the false bottom layer as I had seen it done successfully on a number of dart frog builds. The idea of a single or set of small drip pools is still something I'd like to try and incorporate into the background. While I wouldn't _likely_ mind a high rate of reproduction, I do understand where you're coming from with that warning; I might end up with too much of a good thing too soon.



Bunsincunsin said:


> Here are some photos of how I kept my _tricolor_ - I believe this type of terrestrial hardscape layout is a good place to start when considering this genus/species. If you can, try to get a hold of the 'Dendrobatidae - Poison Frogs: The Fantastic Journey Through Ecuador, Peru & Colombia' series books, as they detail _Epipedobates_ habitat quite thoroughly (at least the first volume does, if I remember correctly).


I like the look your setup achieves (is that native wood?) and love seeing moss on branches/logs. On the book note, I'll do some digging to see if I can find an e-version or library copy of that series; other resources have been fairly vague on the ecosystem specifics.



Socratic Monologue said:


> This thread links to a paper outlining the many pathogens known to be transmitted between amphibians and fish.


Thank you for bringing the risk of disease transmission to my attention; I will be honest in that I hadn't really considered it to be a possibility.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Bunsincunsin said:


> While I think they would certainly utilize the height, I would opt for an enclosure with a larger (at least longer, but not necessarily deeper/wider) footprint.
> 
> I kept a trio of _E. tricolor_ 'Cielito' in a 36"x18"x16" (LxWxH) enclosure and they used just about every square inch of it. If I were to keep them again, I would plan for a slightly longer and taller enclosure than what I had - ~40"x20"x24" or so. The enclosure I set them up in had more of a terrestrial layout, and they only occasionally ventured into the upper parts of the tank where the background was - but, again, I think they would utilize any height you give them, especially if it is made accessible to them, as my enclosure was not designed with height in mind.
> 
> ...


Agreed with everything you said, and wanted to add that I absolutely love that tank. Really reminds me of the natural settings in which many species live.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Leoito said:


> While I wouldn't _likely_ mind a high rate of reproduction, I do understand where you're coming from with that warning; I might end up with too much of a good thing.


It is wise to consider how that might pan out. Either cull eggs, tads or froglets, or grow out the froglets (enclosures?) and sell them (local or national market for the species? hassle?). 



Leoito said:


> I was originally considering a similar opening to the false bottom layer as I had seen it done successfully on a number of dart frog builds.


Perhaps I'm a pessimist, but I like to look both for examples of success but also of failures when trying to figure out what I should do. It isn't so much that it is hard to get a water feature right, but rather that it is really easy to get it wrong.


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