# Any other food sources?



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

I know there are several options for our darts food out there, but I am curious if I have missed any. I'll put a list of what I either have, have used, or know you could use and if anyone has anymore to add to the list that I missed let me know. Also if you have more to add, let me know how or where you acquired them. Thanks!

fruitflies (various strains, melano and hydei)

crickets

RFB

sprintgails (common white)

woodlice and isopods (have dwarf white striped, pygmy red, and Spanish orange)

jewel wasps

waxworm/mealmoths

mellitobia digitata (like jewel wasps)

termites (haven't tried but want to once weather warms up and can find em)

shorelinite beetles (haven't tried... where can you get these??)


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

you could add aphids, phoenix worms, ants

I've seen on other forums people being able to culture ants and termites. Especially the ghost ant and dampwood termites


Ben E's experiment with ghost ants..

http://dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... light=ants


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Yeah, I had thought about trying aphids in the spring once it warms up a bit and I can collect some, but obviously these would be somethng that would have to be eaten as they are fed rather than lingering in the tank or else my plants would suffer. 
Phoenix worms I tried the smallest size once and they were OK, but my azureus and leucs were about all that were interested. I have probably 85% thumbs and pums so I only hold out for them as a treat for my larger morphs.
Ants are something I do really want to try in the spring/summer but am not too excited about the idea of them escaping the viv if they don't all get eaten. The the last thing I need my girlfriend to see since she already hates the whole bug idea, but I'm gonna try it anyways.

Forgot to add the obvious field sweeps to the list above as well. 

In all reality I would love to find a way to acquire and culture some more natural foods from the frogs natural environment. Biggest problem with that would be the big no-no of getting South American insects into the US. I think it would be as difficult and possibly even more difficult than trying to import some species of darts, but I would lke to hear about the possibilities if anyone has ever looked into this much.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Yeah, I've been really researching which ant species can be somewhat culturable. I think the ghost ants seem to be the best bet. I was thinking, in order to keep the ants in, you could get a petri dish, coat the bottom with some supplement, and throw some ants in. their feet would be covered in the dust, so they wont be able to climb out of the viv? I don't know how effective this would be as I've never tried it with ants. But I tried it with FF's and it worked pretty well. I used a black container so the dusted flies would stand out even more. 

As with termites, there was another forum (I think it was a spider forum?) that explained culturing dampwood termites. I'd really like to get a hold of a couple thousand to start that experiment.

Finding different foods for our frogs is probably the most rewarding aspect of the hobby (aside from breeding, but I wouldn't know...yet!). How have the pygmy and orange isopods worked for you?

Another general question: do terribilis eat the larger isopods (is it a "springtail" for them?) I've been considering terribilis to be my next frogs, and want to know a sort of "staple" for them as I hear melano's are too small for them. Could the adults in the lesser moths be considered as a "staple"?


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Crickets would be the best staple for terribilis, as well as hydei or a small roach species. All the other larger feeders would be great to supplement the diet, but not as a staple... waxies are too fatty. You actually wouldn't do the larger isopods, you'd do the smaller species, as they are generally softer in body which makes them more palatable. The orange isopods are basically only useful for janitors unless you want to go thru the effort of collecting the fresh young off the mom... they are basically a color variant of typical porcellio.

There are actually a couple species that people have cultured... their palatability to PDFs is debatable. Ghost ants that have invaded frog tanks are eaten in decent amount when first discovered, then generally ignored. If you stopped feeding your frogs, they'd probably go back to eating them... but it's very hit or miss.

Culturing termites has come up on this board a number of times... what it boils down to is actually culturing termites, with a breeding colony, will not give you enough production to feed out of it... very low production. Generally, you go out and collect a bunch of termites from a colony in the woods, and use the termite set up to keep them long term. You can keep termites around year around like this, and often go out the next year to "refill" the termite container from the same termite colony (assuming it hasn't moved). These are excellent feeders and I know at least one person who uses them as a staple, and when I can get them I use them as a major part of the diet as well, they are a feeder that all PDFs adore.

Terribilis and bicolor also really like freshly hatched praying mantids.

Bunch of other random feeders, but basically you've already brought up most of the frog "food groups".


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

Since many thumbnail frogs eat melano's, I wonder why many people list thumbnails being a harder frog simply because of the smaller food items (I know there are other reasons). And the argument that crickets are easier to obtain isn't since FF's are readily avail. online at just about the same price. 

Just the idea of culturing crickets (smell and noise) and roaches (petrified) kinda turns me off from the frogs that require larger foods.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Its not the smaller food items, they are the same food items most of the other PDFs in the hobby eat. It's that they are less forgiving when things go wrong with food... basically put, the hardy thumbnails are just as easy to care for as most other beginner PDFs, but fall into a serious problem with the most common beginner issue... consistently culturing the food source. They need food, even as adults, on a very consistent basis, and generally can't handle the time frame it usually takes to get appropriate foods, where as the larger frogs can. don't deal well with another beginner issue... thumbnails basically need to be in a tank that is FF proofed, people just don't believe the places these frogs get into!

Most people think of something as "easy to obtain" when, in an emergency, they can drive and pick up what they need. Most people can drive to a chain pet store and pick up crickets... this is not the case with FFs. Online still doesn't factor into many people's idea of easier to obtain, and takes a lot longer than a drive down the road to get... even with the fastest it can be a couple days.

Sucks about the distaste for crickets and roaches... better staples.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Well, my experiences with the pygmy reds has been good so far. They take awhile to breed but are much smaller than the standard isopod, so I wouldn't be at all surprised is some darts would take adults. The young on the other hand, are tiny liek springtails and are excellent for feeding. They don't culture fast enough to be a staple, but if you can get tehm established in a vivs substrate it would make a great snacker for the frogs. The orange isopods I just got so I haven't even had them long enough to get reproduction out of them yet. Despite what Corey said, I hope that the young will be small enough and abundant enough once they start reproducing that I can seed a viv with the adults and get them to reproduce in the viv and yield some young that the forgs will treat as food. I don't think there are many isopods (at least not that I have run across yet) that our frogs will eat as adults but their young are the perfect size and are a great feeder. 
Unfortunately crickets and roaches are a good feeder source, but not for me. The only "large" frogs I have are azureus and leucs and the rest being thumbs and pums that won't really benefit from crickets or roaches much. I know a tiny pinhead can be a good feeder, but I find my thumbs and pums tend to ignore crickets of any size unless that is all they ae fed for a period of time. 
Firebrats is another feeder I forgot about (seems I forgot more than I remembered). Not too sure how good they are or if they are a larger dar only food as well. The fact that they need to be kept hot makes them more difficult to culture from what I hear though. Difficulty is not a problem for me as much as production is. If there is a way to culture a good feeder I will do whatever it takes to make it work, but if the production is low or nil it kinda makes it counterproductive.


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## spydrmn12285 (Oct 24, 2006)

^^Well, I suppose that I can get over my fear of roaches and find a smaller, non-climbing, non-flying species :lol: . Since I hear they are easier to culture than crickets, I'll get them when I have some adult terribilis. I really like this frog species-since its the original dart frog, it would be a shame not to have it in one's collection :wink: .

^Yeah, I'll have to try some other species. The only ones I have are the dwarf white kind and they've been pretty slow. I think I need to add some leaf litter and put em on top of my light fixture for extra heat. Maybe this would be good for firebrats as well? Or is the light not hot enough?


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## steelcube (Mar 17, 2004)

There are other food sources, but it takes finding, experimenting, culturing, and sharing. However not a whole lot of people are taking this route.


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

That's basically it... you have to judge by your own willingness to do something on whether its worth culturing them or not. I culture a couple of critters that most people don't waste their time on because they don't reproduce like FFs... which is funny because only FFs produce like FFs and everything else takes effort.

Firebrats need it extremely hot... low end being 90F. Anything below that is good for crickets and roaches, but won't do anything for the firebrats.

spydrmn12285 - The reason B. lateralis comes up so often as a feeder roach talked about here is that it is basically the smallest non-glass climbing roach that has reproductive rates high enough to make them worth culturing as a food source. Non-glass climbers tend to be fliers, but realize in this species its generally rare... throw a male across the room and it might type deal, lol. It's not like you'll open their container and they swarm out like locusts.

As far as Isopods go, dwarf whites are pretty much as good a dart frog food as it gets... soft bodied that the adults are even taken by larger species, and they have relatively fast reproduction after cultures get established. By consistently pulling the juvies produced and leaving the breeders, you'll get more consistent production. This also assumes you've got them set up correctly in the first place. As for the porcellio (no matter th color) it was my understanding that the stage in which the babies were best frog food was when they were still hanging onto mom's belly...and after they leave mom they don't work as well as feeders... 

Pinheads have been accepted by every PDF I've ever worked with. They do seem to do better than others tho, and its best to not feed again until the frogs have cleaned the tank of them... this can take several days in some cases. My pumilio always seemed to really enjoy pinheads... They hunt around the leaf litter a lot and tend to clean up well. Again tho, to get the right size it's a matter of breeding them yourself, more than a couple days and they are too big for a lot of pumilio... then again, the same pumilio eat termites... Much of the thumbs in the hobby do not spend nearly the time in the leaf litter of a tank, and thus are not as good candidates for pinheads.

Just have to realize... most of the alternate feeders either are time/space intensive, or have relatively low production to the more common feeders. They are great sources for variation, but there is a reason I say that only FFs, crickets, and roaches make staples.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

any idea where I could get some richorhina tomentosa? I see flyculture.com has them coming soon but its said that forever. right now I'm still only culturing melano and springs. dwarf whites seem like the best viable option if thumbs take to them.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

The pygmy reds and the striped I`m working with are both quite prolific and adults are readily taken by tincs thru terribilis. I haven`t tried them w/ thumbs but they are definately in their size range. Pumilio love the juvis of the striped. I didn`t realize how prolific they were till I started pulling them out of the tanks and trying to culture them or pulling the adult frogs out of the viv to see how quick they reproduce. I never saw too many in a viv because they were readily consumed before they could reach good #`s. I`m also breeding the dwarf white and although they produce well I have had better production w/ these other 2 isopods. As soon as I can get anyone from the dept. of agriculture to return an email or return a call I`ll be able to get some more out there. For now I can only bring them to the shows. I`m working on building up #`s for IAD.
The pygmy red adults are far smaller than the dwarf tropical. An adult is no bigger then a melonagaster. The dwarf striped are about the size of the dwarf white woodlice and they climb making them readily visable in a viv. the pygmy red can sometimes be as numerous as 7-8 on one pice of coco chip the size of a die.


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

oh perfect. I'll be keeping an eye out at IAD then


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Aaron, you mentioned the Dept of agriculture... is there a danger of these getting confiscated if you ship them as a pest species? The culture I got from you are swarming and I was thinking about sharing some in the future but if there is a hangup with shipping that thought may have to wait...


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

can I get some pictures of how you guys are culturing the striped. I grabbed some striped at IAD and what to make sure I get the conditions right before moving them from the container I bought them in. Also, how small are the babies? Mite size? I'm not sure if I see tons of mites or babies and I've got pretty good eyesight. I can usually see the hairs on mites with my naked eye. :lol:


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## KeroKero (Jun 13, 2004)

Best to ask who you got them from (or if you got them from the auction, see who they were donated by). I'm trying to remember who brought them... Oz? I know he explained to me how he was doing his (similar to how the cups were already set up) and it sounded like a good idea that I'm going to use for some of mine  Too bad I forgot to ask what he fed them...


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## bellerophon (Sep 18, 2006)

I believe it was frogfarm? two tables to the right of smegnoz if you were standing at his table.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I remember a thread a while ago on spiders. I think they could be potentially very useful, esp. as vacation food, if we find the right species. Just sustain them off of an overprolific B. lateralis culture, collect the sacs, and put them in a little dish. I doubt the spiderlings would last long. Whatever species picked would preferably be one that wouldn't cause any problems if it got away into the viv.


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