# Mixing thumbs with larger frogs



## waterskeeter (Mar 29, 2008)

Is it possible to keep larger terrestrial frogs with smaller more arboreal thumbs in a vivarium heavily planted around 125 gallons or bigger?


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## angry gary (Dec 9, 2009)

<fingers in ears waiting for the explosion>


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## Blocker Institute (Apr 19, 2010)

angry gary said:


> <fingers in ears waiting for the explosion>


Hahahahahahahahaha.


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## Vinnner (Oct 1, 2010)

I too am just gonna sit back and get some brews and see how this unfolds.


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## waterskeeter (Mar 29, 2008)

I take it that is a bad question to ask? So is that a no?


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

waterskeeter said:


> Is it possible to keep larger terrestrial frogs with smaller more arboreal thumbs in a vivarium heavily planted around 125 gallons or bigger?


Sure it is as long as you set up mutiple feeding stations to avoid the larger frogs dominating the food supply and shy away from aggressive feeders like Teribs and Bicolors.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

and so it begins...


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## Vinnner (Oct 1, 2010)

waterskeeter said:


> I take it that is a bad question to ask? So is that a no?


Is it a bad question? No

Is it the best thing for a new hobbyist to attempt? NO (assuming you are new to the hobby)

With proper setup and husbandry it can be done, but like i said, should not be attempted by someone who is new to the hobby. 

Best bet is to set up multiple tanks and learn how the different types of frogs live, behave, feed, interact. Get a feel for many, many differtn types of frogs. Then maybe a few years down the line, some experience under your belt (again assuming your new) and with the proper research, it could be attempted. But again this is all opinion, and truthfully members are going to do what the inevitably want to do. 

Just be wise in your decision making!

Vinny


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## waterskeeter (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback vinny, and yes I do still think of myself as a novice when it comes to frogs ive only been in the hobby for a little over a year and still learning a ton. I figure this is the place to get questions to answers before I do something im not ready for.


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## Vinnner (Oct 1, 2010)

This is def a great place, just be carful as there are some flame throwers out there!

But def get a feel for some larger frogs and some smaller frogs. Thats how I started and now only keep thumbs and a few pums. Find out what you really like first. Plus keeping multiple tanks is a lot more fun. Always something to do on a rainy day!

Vinny


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## waterskeeter (Mar 29, 2008)

At the moment ive got three tanks, 1.1 std imitators, 1.2 veraderos, 1.1 iquitos vents. I love smaller frogs but the other day I saw a 200 gallon vivarium that I fell in love with that had some tincs in it, but I thought there was a lot of wasted space that the tinc weren't using so thats why I asked the question about having thumbs with larger frogs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

In addition to the feeding problems already mentioned, you will also face aggression problems. 
If you put frogs together from different areas, you have the potential of introducing pests and pathogens from one area that frogs from the second area have absolutely no natural defense against.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> In addition to the feeding problems already mentioned, you will also face aggression problems.
> If you put frogs together from different areas, you have the potential of introducing pests and pathogens from one area that frogs from the second area have absolutely no natural defense against.


Doug,

That is a possibility, yet people who have been keeping such tanks for years both here and in Europe haven't really encountered that problem. Besides unless you are using diffrent water, plant and food sources for each tank the dangers of crosscontamination are already there. Aggresion is also unlikely in a tank of the size originally proposed. In fact with properly deigned feeding sights the frogs may never even encounter each other.


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

wow, will this be one of the most civilized mixing threads in recorded history?!

let's hope it stays that way... ***fingers crossed***


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> In addition to the feeding problems already mentioned, you will also face aggression problems.
> If you put frogs together from different areas, you have the potential of introducing pests and pathogens from one area that frogs from the second area have absolutely no natural defense against.


I just have question about this statement. Not directed solely towards you Doug, but to anyone who uses this as one of the reasons why mixing is a bad idea, and can inform me further.

If introducing pathogens and pest from one species of frog to another is a pressing concern, shouldnt it also be mentioned that transfering any material from one tank to another can cause the same problems? No plant cuttings, driftwoods, natural materials, or anything that hasnt been treated. Plant cuttings and materials are constantly being transfered between hobbyists and personal collections. Hell, half the plants from my first tank helped me fill in my second one. Im not sure if this has been discused elsewhere so I could be mistaken. Maybe pests/pathogens can only cross from frog-on-frog contact? I really dont know...


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## tclipse (Sep 19, 2009)

Generally speaking, if you weren't already considering the following topics (to name a few)- niches, spatial/dietary requirements of each specie, multiple breeding & feeding sites, species compatibility/temperaments, and possibility for indirect or direct competition/stress..... then I'd recommend doing some serious research before considering it. 

I wouldn't do it personally. If I HAD to do it with a 125G, I would definitely 100% do a vertical conversion. There isn't enough space in a horizontal 125 for arboreal species to act like arboreal species.... it's generally not a great idea to force two animals of different size and temperament into one small niche in an enclosed space. Flipping the tank vertically could allow for a small group of terrestrial frogs on the ground while giving the upper ~4.5 feet to the thumbnails. 

That being said, I wouldn't do it myself.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Doug,
> 
> That is a possibility, yet people who have been keeping such tanks for years both here and in Europe haven't really encountered that problem. Besides unless you are using diffrent water, plant and food sources for each tank the dangers of crosscontamination are already there. Aggresion is also unlikely in a tank of the size originally proposed. In fact with properly deigned feeding sights the frogs may never even encounter each other.


Hey mantisdragon91, I am simply pointing out some of the dangers he is unversed in. He asked, I am answering. I'll also point out that he considers himself a novice, only about a year into the hobby. It looks as if he has only kept thumbnails and NO terrestrials.
I believe, even amongst proponents of mixing, it is generally advised that you are very familiar with all of the care requirements of every species being included. The op has stated that he is not, when he says he considers himself a novice. I would think that you should consider yourself at least intermediate, and have experience, with each and every species to be put into the viv.
I will grant that a 200 gallon would be big enough to attempt it in. 
That said, I will put forth my own personal preference, and that is to set up a new, dedicated enclosure for each species kept.
I've put my 2 cents in, so I think I'm going to duck out before any fireworks start.


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## waterskeeter (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks again to all that are answering my question. I find all of this great information for someone who is still learning.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Hey mantisdragon91, I am simply pointing out some of the dangers he is unversed in. He asked, I am answering. I'll also point out that he considers himself a novice, only about a year into the hobby. It looks as if he has only kept thumbnails and NO terrestrials.
> I believe, even amongst proponents of mixing, it is generally advised that you are very familiar with all of the care requirements of every species being included. The op has stated that he is not, when he says he considers himself a novice. I would think that you should consider yourself at least intermediate, and have experience, with each and every species to be put into the viv.
> I will grant that a 200 gallon would be big enough to attempt it in.
> That said, I will put forth my own personal preference, and that is to set up a new, dedicated enclosure for each species kept.
> I've put my 2 cents in, so I think I'm going to duck out before any fireworks start.


No fireworks Doug, You stated your point clearly and honestly and I have stated mine. We can respectfully disagree.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> I just have question about this statement. Not directed solely towards you Doug, but to anyone who uses this as one of the reasons why mixing is a bad idea, and can inform me further.
> 
> If introducing pathogens and pest from one species of frog to another is a pressing concern, shouldnt it also be mentioned that transfering any material from one tank to another can cause the same problems? No plant cuttings, driftwoods, natural materials, or anything that hasnt been treated. Plant cuttings and materials are constantly being transfered between hobbyists and personal collections. Hell, half the plants from my first tank helped me fill in my second one. Im not sure if this has been discused elsewhere so I could be mistaken. Maybe pests/pathogens can only cross from frog-on-frog contact? I really dont know...


I take what precautions I can. If I transfer cuttings, I always wash them, and do a 10 minute dip in a 5 percent bleach solution.
I admit I have reused ghost wood once. To at least minimize the risk, I boiled the wood for over an hour and then immediately went into the oven for another 30 to 60 minutes (can't remember how long).


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

mantisdragon91 said:


> No fireworks Doug, You stated your point clearly and honestly and I have stated mine. We can respectfully disagree.


I didn't mean to imply that either you or myself would be the one to start them. Board history shows, however, that with a thread that mentions mixing, the fireworks will eventually start. While that can be fun at first, eventually I take something personally, say things I'll regret later, and just get too stressed out.
Good day all. Gonna see what's in the next door.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I take what precautions I can. If I transfer cuttings, I always wash them, and do a 10 minute dip in a 5 percent bleach solution.
> I admit I have reused ghost wood once. To at least minimize the risk, I boiled the wood for over an hour and then immediately went into the oven for another 30 to 60 minutes (can't remember how long).


I also starting thinking about other possible causes of cross contamination. Escaped fruit flies getting into other tanks, prior frog breeders/owners, original importation of the frogs, not wasking hands between working with tanks. Its honestly an endless list if you break it all down. It is admirable that you take all the best possible precautions, but to me the damage has been done even before you got your hands on the frogs. The second anyone keeps more then one species of frog in the same location, the risks are all there, unless it is infact only frog-on-frog contact that spreads pests/pathogens. Hopefully some bio pro can inform me a little better, cause I might just be talking total garbage 

I dont usually post in mixing threads, but the gears started turning in the noggin today lol


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

GRIMM said:


> I also starting thinking about other possible causes of cross contamination. Escaped fruit flies getting into other tanks, prior frog breeders/owners, original importation of the frogs, not wasking hands between working with tanks. Its honestly an endless list if you break it all down. It is admirable that you take all the best possible precautions, but to me the damage has been done even before you got your hands on the frogs. The second anyone keeps more then one species of frog in the same location, the risks are all there, unless it is infact only frog-on-frog contact that spreads pests/pathogens. Hopefully some bio pro can inform me a little better, cause I might just be talking total garbage
> 
> I dont usually post in mixing threads, but the gears started turning in the noggin today lol


The implication you are presenting is that it isn't worthwhile due to all of the prior potential chances for contamination. 

We have seen wide ranging impacts from housing animals from disparate locations not only in other taxa (chelonians, mycoplasma) but issues with amphibians (transmission of ranaviruses to novel locations, probable source and initial vectoring of chytrid). There are other potential things that can jump hosts including parasites (example Ecological impacts of invading species: Do parasites of the cane toad imperil Australian frogs? - PIZZATTO - 2011 - Austral Ecology - Wiley Online Library) where lungworms specific to Marine toads are shown to jump hosts and show high levels of parasite loads. There is risk to not only with the mixed species tanks but with native species if care isn't taken to prevent release of infected materials..... 

I know I have touched on disinfecting materials and plants several times as well as suggesting to not use plants that originate in enclosures that house frogs. Personally I set up plant rearing enclosures and only use new growth from those plants to plant in new enclosures. 

The risk from the fruit flies is reduced provided one has fruit fly proofed the enclosure and sets up traps outside of the tanks. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I forgot to add this to my post earlier as I got distracted... 

People should be asking "should I house those species together" instead of asking "can I house those species together".... There are potentially some serious concerns that come from consistent exposure to novel pathogens and/or parasites. 

Ed


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## RNKot (Jun 9, 2010)

In general *waterskeeter*, you'd better reread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1658471 mixing threads.
Also there is a good sticky post http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html
Mixing is a holy war for the hobby & a red rag for a bull here.

As for me i'm concerned of a sharp "no mixing! it's † heresy †!!!!!!11" position, that can lead to the point when we'll hide & just don't show our mixed tanks.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> I also starting thinking about other possible causes of cross contamination. Escaped fruit flies getting into other tanks, prior frog breeders/owners, original importation of the frogs, not wasking hands between working with tanks. Its honestly an endless list if you break it all down. It is admirable that you take all the best possible precautions, but to me the damage has been done even before you got your hands on the frogs. The second anyone keeps more then one species of frog in the same location, the risks are all there, unless it is infact only frog-on-frog contact that spreads pests/pathogens. Hopefully some bio pro can inform me a little better, cause I might just be talking total garbage
> 
> I dont usually post in mixing threads, but the gears started turning in the noggin today lol


Sure there will always be possible causes of cross contamination. Does this mean we should stop taking any precautions at all? 
I mean, there is chance that you will fall and break your arm today. After all, there are pitfalls everywhere. Things you could trip over, banana peels on the sidewalk, heck, an earthquake could make you lose your balance. How do you deal with this? Look where you are going and don't assume that it is inevitable. Be careful and please, don't stick your arm in a vise and start whacking at it with a hammer because, "Hey, it's gonna happen anyway".


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> Sure there will always be possible causes of cross contamination. Does this mean we should stop taking any precautions at all?
> I mean, there is chance that you will fall and break your arm today. After all, there are pitfalls everywhere. Things you could trip over, banana peels on the sidewalk, heck, an earthquake could make you lose your balance. How do you deal with this? Look where you are going and don't assume that it is inevitable. Be careful and please, don't stick your arm in a vise and start whacking at it with a hammer because, "Hey, it's gonna happen anyway".


Im not pro mixing Pumilo, so you dont have talk to me like im a moron, my god dude. There are indeed a million other good reasons why mixing shouldnt be done, but I do see a crack in the cross contamination view on things. I wouldnt be surprised if most peoples collections carry the same pests being that they are only seperated by glass and a few inches. 

This will be the last time I post in a mixing thread. Even the most respected people turn into sarcastic jerks. Ill make sure not to stick my hand in a vice, thanks for the tip.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> Im not pro mixing Pumilo, so you dont have talk to me like im a moron, my god dude. There are indeed a million other good reasons why mixing shouldnt be done, but I do see a crack in the cross contamination view on things. I wouldnt be surprised if most peoples collections carry the same pests being that they are only seperated by glass and a few inches.
> 
> This will be the last time I post in a mixing thread. Even the most respected people turn into sarcastic jerks. Ill make sure not to stick my hand in a vice, thanks for the tip.


what is the issue here? He gave you a reasonable rebuttal to a point you deliberately raised, and can't find anything condescending or rude about it


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

GRIMM said:


> Im not pro mixing Pumilo, so you dont have talk to me like im a moron, my god dude. There are indeed a million other good reasons why mixing shouldnt be done, but I do see a crack in the cross contamination view on things. I wouldnt be surprised if most peoples collections carry the same pests being that they are only seperated by glass and a few inches.
> 
> This will be the last time I post in a mixing thread. Even the most respected people turn into sarcastic jerks. Ill make sure not to stick my hand in a vice, thanks for the tip.


Sorry you feel that way. I did not mean to imply you were a moron. I feel that sometimes looking at something from a different point of view can help. Obviously you don't feel that way. I guess I don't know what else to say about it. There are many things that can cause cross contamination. As for myself, I will not assume that it will happen and give up. I will continue to take what precautions I can.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> what is the issue here? He gave you a reasonable rebuttal to a point you deliberately raised, and can't find anything condescending or rude about it


Thanks, it was not meant to be an insult. If I really intend to call someone a moron, there won't be any doubt, you'll know it!


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

All pathogens aside, would frogs from the same region be more agreeable with everyone? Perhaps this would be one of the few occasions when a water feature might have some purpose as a natural barrier. 

I don't mix frogs myself and I don't encourage it, but if there was an agreeable mix to be made that might certainly pose a solution to keeping the frogs separate.

All purely academic...


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

For the record, I think thumbs should only be mixed with other fingers... 

IMO, the "effect" of a mixed enclosure may be accomplished this way(attachment). Both vivs could be independant from eachother, yet be landscaped to appear harmonious and joined without any direct exposure from the "other side". Maybe the close proximity would pose some risks, but if someone were hell bent, I assume risks aren't an issue.... Crap... just realized I can't add an attachment when editing a post...See below for the "concept". Sorry.

JBear


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

With one finger of particular interest? LOL


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

The "concept":


JBear


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

MrFusion said:


> With one finger of particular interest? LOL


Not what I meant, but very funny!

JBear


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

Oh I know. I was just adding on my own special brand of humor to your original joke, which was hilarious by the way!


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> For the record, I think thumbs should only be mixed with other fingers...
> 
> IMO, the "effect" of a mixed enclosure may be accomplished this way(attachment). Both vivs could be independant from eachother, yet be landscaped to appear harmonious and joined without any direct exposure from the "other side". Maybe the close proximity would pose some risks, but if someone were hell bent, I assume risks aren't an issue.... Crap... just realized I can't add an attachment when editing a post...See below for the "concept". Sorry.
> 
> JBear


I plan on doing something along these lines with my Veradero imitators and my (future) Veradero fantasticus....



MrFusion said:


> All pathogens aside, would frogs from the same region be more agreeable with everyone? Perhaps this would be one of the few occasions when a water feature might have some purpose as a natural barrier.
> 
> I don't mix frogs myself and I don't encourage it, but if there was an agreeable mix to be made that might certainly pose a solution to keeping the frogs separate.
> 
> All purely academic...


This might mitigate the novel pathogen issue that has been mentioned in this thread already. However, this likely won't help cross-contamination in general. Sure, the pathogens my frogs are carrying are now native to their natural habitat, but that doesn't change the fact that _both_ species are now carrying that pathogen. (I should mention, I'm not saying that cross-contamination is the biggest problem with mixing, just trying to answer your question from my perspective).

Another issue to consider, putting pathogens aside, is that, while the frogs you're hypothetically considering mixing may come from the same place, they're in a rather confined enclosure. I feel like many of the animals in nature that coexist in the same population do so because there is so - incredibly - much space that it's not really much of an issue. Even a tank in the quadruple digits just can't provide the kind of space to run away or hide from aggression (and other factors) that occurs in the wild....

Also, considering that even my largest non-treefrogs still climb glass, I doubt if a water feature could be adequately utilized as a barrier in a tank.


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## MrFusion (Jul 18, 2011)

SmackoftheGods said:


> Also, considering that even my largest non-treefrogs still climb glass, I doubt if a water feature could be adequately utilized as a barrier in a tank.


 Oh good grief... That's what I get for posting this early in the AM. LOL Good point!


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I had two Azureus, a Leuc, neon tetras and a dwarf frog in a 45 gallon because I wanted a colorful display. When I ran low on food the Azureus got skinny and died (one right after the other). Now I'm not sure if the Leuc stressed them or I transferred a disease from the dwarf frog to the darts? I'm going to give away the Leuc and scrub the tank down since I don't know what caused the crash.

Anyways, I thought I liked having a mixed species tank, but it crashed now I have to start all over. Although it was cool while it lasted (4 years) when something goes wrong you never know what happened so it's really confusing when problems arise. 

You can certainly do it, but troubleshooting problems with frogs may be much more difficult. That is the main reason I changed my mind about mixed tanks.


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

wjesse said:


> I had two Azureus, a Leuc, neon tetras and a dwarf frog in a 45 gallon because I wanted a colorful display. When I ran low on food the Azureus got skinny and died (one right after the other). Now I'm not sure if the Leuc stressed them or I transferred a disease from the dwarf frog to the darts? I'm going to give away the Leuc and scrub the tank down since I don't know what caused the crash.
> 
> Anyways, I thought I liked having a mixed species tank, but it crashed now I have to start all over. Although it was cool while it lasted (4 years) when something goes wrong you never know what happened so it's really confusing when problems arise.
> 
> You can certainly do it, but troubleshooting problems with frogs may be much more difficult. That is the main reason I changed my mind about mixed tanks.



it might not be the best thing to release that leuc into the hobby, without trying to identify what the issue was, especially if you're concerned it might involve some unknown disease


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wjesse said:


> I had two Azureus, a Leuc, neon tetras and a dwarf frog in a 45 gallon because I wanted a colorful display. When I ran low on food the Azureus got skinny and died (one right after the other). Now I'm not sure if the Leuc stressed them or I transferred a disease from the dwarf frog to the darts? I'm going to give away the Leuc and scrub the tank down since I don't know what caused the crash.


Dwarf frogs (Hymenochirus) in some parts of the literature are considered good canidates for being positive for chytrid. 

Ed


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It would be irresponsible to give away a frog that was in a tank that crashed (and you don't know why).

s


wjesse said:


> ... I'm going to give away the Leuc and scrub the tank down since I don't know what caused the crash.


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I just heard about the fungus that Dwarfs carry.

She looks completely fine, is very active and shows no signs of anything wrong. I will of course tell whoever wants her about the possible health issues. I wouldn't secretly give her away without disclosing issues. 

My concern is the vet is 60 miles away, wants $65 to diagnose, $35 for a fecal and whatever her treatment costs. I would rather adopt her to someone who knows frogs a little better and can look after her. My gut says she is fine, but I know these things can go unnoticed.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

I think the only way you are gonna find someone that IS qualified to care for the frog is to do at least some preliminary diagnosis, if not treatments. Who knows, maybe someone has extra $ laying around for another vet bill, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I am happy you have learned from the experience, and now have a much better grasp on beauty vs functionality. Best of luck!

JBear


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

fecals can be done for under $20 (last time i checked) although it wouldnt confirm a Bd infection (which needs a swab sent to a separate lab) but the treatment for chitryd is easy, costs less than $10, and IMO is safe enough and doesnt cause excessive stress, that i'd treat the animal anyway. 

i do feel that you all need to ease up on the OP. they seem to have the BEST of intentions, and are even willing to give the frog (for free i might add) to someone willing to diagnose/ treat the animal. that seems pretty fair to me. ive taken in "rescue" animals before, and as long as the potential issues are disclosed, i see nothing wrong here.

ed: thanks for the info. i know i'd seen info on the dwarfs being Bd carriers, but couldnt find a good resource to post here originally. (which made me question if i was remembering correctly). thanks again for your ever insightful comments.

james


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks for the insight. 

What does OP stand for?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

OP stands for you  the original poster

james


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## jkooiman (May 2, 2010)

james67 said:


> OP stands for you  the original poster
> 
> james


But he's not the OP, Jimmy-Bobby.  JVK


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

jbherpin said:


> I think the only way you are gonna find someone that IS qualified to care for the frog is to do at least some preliminary diagnosis, if not treatments. Who knows, maybe someone has extra $ laying around for another vet bill, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I am happy you have learned from the experience, and now have a much better grasp on beauty vs functionality. Best of luck!
> 
> JBear





james67 said:


> i do feel that you all need to ease up on the OP. they seem to have the BEST of intentions, and are even willing to give the frog (for free i might add) to someone willing to diagnose/ treat the animal. that seems pretty fair to me. ive taken in "rescue" animals before, and as long as the potential issues are disclosed, i see nothing wrong here.
> 
> james


I didn't intend to come across rude... I meant that many people are "strapped" for cash, and I didn't think many would want a frog infected with x, y, or z... Maybe it is my sole position...

JBear


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## majorinsano (Feb 17, 2011)

wjesse, you said your tank was set up for 4 years? Where all the frogs in there that long or did you recently introduce one or more of them. 

And when you mentioned your food supply ran low, what did you mean?


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

jkooiman said:


> But he's not the OP, Jimmy-Bobby.  JVK


ha! i'd forgotten completely where this thread started. sort of off topic now, i guess. thanks for pointing out what a idiot i was there 

james


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## dart666 (Sep 18, 2010)

I think everyone on here would agree that the best frog mix is dart frogs and pacman frogs!


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

james67 said:


> i do feel that you all need to ease up on the OP. they seem to have the BEST of intentions, and are even willing to give the frog (for free i might add) to someone willing to diagnose/ treat the animal. that seems pretty fair to me. ive taken in "rescue" animals before, and as long as the potential issues are disclosed, i see nothing wrong here.


to be fair, I was expecting the type of pointless flaming that would make ed's cankles quiver. But things have been rather reasonable, and subdued, on the topic, with people only stressing the need for precaution here (which is totally reasonable, given the circumstances, and what she was mixing with)


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

They have been in there for almost 4 years together. The water frog was in there for at least one of those years.

I made a FF culture as one was on it's tail end so there was a gap of a couple weeks where the frogs got little to eat. I was shaking the remaining flys out of the old one and the frogs would eat fish flakes when I'd feed the fish too. 

One blue frog got skinny and never started eating again when the new culture started. the other blue frog got skinny and died about two weeks later (when there was food). I figured they just got old until I got online and realized they can live for a lot longer.


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## Raf (Feb 20, 2010)

I never realized that mixing species in one viv is 'not-done' in the US.
It's funny to see all the differences in the hobby between the US and Europe.
Can't say mixing is always a good idea but when you have the knowledge of dartfrog keeping you can foresee problems. I have more problems keeping dartfrogs in tiny vivs.
In Europe keeping dartfrogs in aquariums is 'not-done' or they don't recommend it.
I had more problems with dominating frogs that terrorised frogs of their own kind. I keep 3 different frogs in my viv. Tricolor, Leuc and ventris. I had them breeding in another viv.
The size of the frog doesn't matter. Pumilio can't be mixed because they are intolerant against other frogs...for example.
I think the character of the frogs are more important than the type of frogs.
And ofcourse you don't have leuc, azureus,... in one viv.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

wjesse said:


> They have been in there for almost 4 years together. The water frog was in there for at least one of those years.
> 
> I made a FF culture as one was on it's tail end so there was a gap of a couple weeks where the frogs got little to eat. I was shaking the remaining flys out of the old one and the frogs would eat fish flakes when I'd feed the fish too.
> 
> One blue frog got skinny and never started eating again when the new culture started. the other blue frog got skinny and died about two weeks later (when there was food). I figured they just got old until I got online and realized they can live for a lot longer.


A several week gap should not be sufficient for a frog to starve to death if it was healthy. They can show weight loss but it should take much longer than that as the frogs are capable of slowing down thier metabolism when denied food to conserve thier reserves.


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

wjesse said:


> They have been in there for almost 4 years together. The water frog was in there for at least one of those years.
> 
> I made a FF culture as one was on it's tail end so there was a gap of a couple weeks where the frogs got little to eat. I was shaking the remaining flys out of the old one and the frogs would eat fish flakes when I'd feed the fish too.
> 
> One blue frog got skinny and never started eating again when the new culture started. the other blue frog got skinny and died about two weeks later (when there was food). I figured they just got old until I got online and realized they can live for a lot longer.


Had anything recently changed? new insect feeders? new plants? new leaf litter? new fish? anything?

Sounds suspiciously like parasites, unfortunately for you, the only way to be 100% sure is to take the animal to see a vet. Without a proper vet visit there is no one that is going to be able to tell you what happened without a reasonable doubt.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Raf said:


> In Europe keeping dartfrogs in aquariums is 'not-done' or they don't recommend it.
> I had more problems with dominating frogs that terrorised frogs of their own kind.


I would say the same issues apply to single species vivs in smaller tanks that you just listed about mixed tanks. It's about the type of frog you're working with. If you know what you're working with you can forsee issues that may arise. It's also about selecting a certain frog for a certain viv. Some frogs just aren't group frogs. Other frogs need sufficient space to be group frogs. Other varieties do well in group settings even when subject to a smaller tank.

One of the things that needs to be taken into consideration is that out here there just aren't many people creating Euro-style vivs. It seems like every picture I see from Europe is of a tank that is brilliantly set up with a huge variety of plants in a 500+ gallon setting. There's a different mindset over here, where a "big tank" is 50 - 100 gallons. With that kind of mindset, it's probably best that most hobbyists over here don't work with mixed tanks (imagine trying to fit your three species in a 50 gallon tank).


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

I found a home for my Luec today! She is being taken care of at Seattle Reptile. They had a zillion dart frogs already and said they know how to care for her. I feel good about leaving her there.

Now I need to break down my tank and scrub away. Is a 5-10% bleach solution generally used for disinfecting?

I stopped by a local breeder on my way home and picked up four Imitators. They're living in a shoebox until I get their new home ready. I'm pretty excited to start fresh!


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

did you make sure to inform them about the dye-off in your tank, and how chytrid was a possible concern?


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Yep, they said they would take care of her.


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## jbherpin (Oct 16, 2009)

Good for you on finding a new home, personally I would have waited to get the new frogs(the 4 imis) until the new viv was set up and running. I WOULD NOT use the same tank... Best of luck!

JBear


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

jbherpin said:


> Good for you on finding a new home, personally I would have waited to get the new frogs(the 4 imis) until the new viv was set up and running. I WOULD NOT use the same tank... Best of luck!
> 
> JBear


using the same tank will be fine if the necessary precautions are taken. 

james


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

wjesse said:


> I had two Azureus, a Leuc, neon tetras and a dwarf frog in a 45 gallon because I wanted a colorful display. When I ran low on food the Azureus got skinny and died (one right after the other). Now I'm not sure if the Leuc stressed them or I transferred a disease from the dwarf frog to the darts? I'm going to give away the Leuc and scrub the tank down since I don't know what caused the crash.
> 
> Anyways, I thought I liked having a mixed species tank, but it crashed now I have to start all over. Although it was cool while it lasted (4 years) when something goes wrong you never know what happened so it's really confusing when problems arise.
> 
> You can certainly do it, but troubleshooting problems with frogs may be much more difficult. That is the main reason I changed my mind about mixed tanks.


If it lasted 4 years, I would say it was pretty successful.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

jdogfunk99 said:


> If it lasted 4 years, I would say it was pretty successful.


An Azureus can live for 20 plus years. A 4 year life span should not be considered "pretty successful".


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Pumilo said:


> An Azureus can live for 20 plus years. A 4 year life span should not be considered "pretty successful".


I wonder was the average life span is for the average PDF in captivity for the average hobbyist.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jdogfunk99 said:


> I wonder was the average life span is for the average PDF in captivity for the average hobbyist.


The "average" PDF hobbyist doesn't look for hubandry information, is isolated from other hobbyists, and usually gets tired of keeping the frog after a year or two. I hardly think this is an adequate means of comparison.


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

Setting aside the side conversations and contamination issues, I haven't seen much evidence based on science that would prohibit mixing thumbs with larger frogs. Conclusions people?


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Thanks for input. I am planning on using the same tank after co2 bomb & 5% bleach wash down. Any other steps before reconstruction?

Also, I want to do a new background that looks cool like concrete but won't take a month to ph balance. What suggestions/ links do you guys have? I did a great stuff one with cork bark last time but want to try something that I can shape and form better and is easy to wipe clean if needed.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Setting aside the side conversations and contamination issues, I haven't seen much evidence based on science that would prohibit mixing thumbs with larger frogs. Conclusions people?


setting aside the years of research that says cigarettes are unhealthy, i see no evidence that my smoking habit is slowly filling my lungs with tar.

seriously? youve been a member since 2007, so how did you miss ANY of the multitude of mixing threads?

i'll sum them up:
is is possible? yes. but its also possible to keep an orca whale in captivity, being possible doesnt make it feasible for your run of the mill hobbyist to attempt.

james


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Setting aside the side conversations and contamination issues, I haven't seen much evidence based on science that would prohibit mixing thumbs with larger frogs. Conclusions people?


You should probably do a search for "mixing." Just cause you haven't seen it hardly means it hasn't been discussed. (Sure, it's possible under the right circumstances, but there have been plenty of conversations about why the average hobbyist is inept for mixing.)


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

james67 said:


> setting aside the years of research that says cigarettes are unhealthy, i see no evidence that my smoking habit is slowly filling my lungs with tar.
> 
> seriously? youve been a member since 2007, so how did you miss ANY of the multitude of mixing threads?
> 
> ...


Woah, take it easy James; I'm just trying to get consensus on this thread, NOT a consensus on mixing dendrobates that can interbreed in general.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Woah, take it easy James; I'm just trying to get consensus on this thread, NOT a consensus on mixing dendrobates that can interbreed in general.


You mean outside of novel pathogen risks from disparate geographical locations as seen with mycoplasma in some chelonians, what were host specific parasites jumping to novel hosts (like lungworms from marine toads infecting wild populations of White's treefrogs), and ranaviruses to name a few of the ones discussed with appliciable citations in past threads? 
Or resource allocation and defense discussions with some citations based on dendrobatid behaviors? 

Ed


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## Golden State Mantellas (Mar 12, 2011)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Woah, take it easy James; I'm just trying to get consensus on this thread, NOT a consensus on mixing dendrobates that can interbreed in general.


A simple search on mixing would have prepared you for responses akin to the response you got from James.

Don't cover yourself in fruit flies and jump into a viv full of darts and expect them not to attack you...


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

What happened to this board? It used to be full on positive and tolerant comments. Seems now that half the replies are sarcastic, negative, or the standard "why didn't you search before posting" comment. Guess what, just about everything has been discussed before. Opening up discussions again allows new experiences to be introduced and new members to chime in. If I wanted snide or intolerant comments, there are endless other message boards to go to.


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

jdogfunk99 said:


> What happened to this board? It used to be full on positive and tolerant comments. Seems now that half the replies are sarcastic, negative, or the standard "why didn't you search before posting" comment. Guess what, just about everything has been discussed before. Opening up discussions again allows new experiences to be introduced and new members to chime in. If I wanted snide or intolerant comments, there are endless other message boards to go to.


there's a new thread on mixing _literally_ every week. How have you not seen one before?


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## jdogfunk99 (Oct 16, 2007)

VicSkimmr said:


> there's a new thread on mixing _literally_ every week. How have you not seen one before?


Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the current state of negative comments. Just for the record, specifically mixing thumbs with larger frogs in not a common thread.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

but it is. usually its a point in the thread when someone gets the idea; what about "arboreal" frogs mixed with "terrestrial" frogs?

sure, their not using the terms "thumb" and "larger frog", but its the same discussion, and it has been beaten to death on this board. 

many see comments like your original one, are seen as fishing for argument, since its hard to believe that one could visit the boards with any frequency, and miss out on this topic, and EVERY variation of it. and your typical response of, "What happened to this board? It used to be full on positive and tolerant comments." goes in line with a NUMBER of similar posts which have been, in the past, geared at creating a sense of respectability in the eyes of others who refuse to listen to good advice, by vilifying those who are simply tired of discussing an open and close topic with people who dont care to listen to any view that opposes their own , usually uninformed one.

james


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the current state of negative comments. Just for the record, specifically mixing thumbs with larger frogs in not a common thread.


On what premise are you basing the argument that the novel pathogen exposure doesn't hold for for this issue? 

On what are you basing the premise that the discussions involving dendrobatids in general don't/shouldn't apply to the idea of housing thumbnails and larger frogs?


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## VicSkimmr (Jan 24, 2006)

jdogfunk99 said:


> Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the current state of negative comments. Just for the record, specifically mixing thumbs with larger frogs in not a common thread.


I'm not sure how you could possibly construe that as a negative comment. I didn't even insult your intelligence.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

jdogfunk99 said:


> What happened to this board? It used to be full on positive and tolerant comments. Seems now that half the replies are sarcastic, negative, or the standard "why didn't you search before posting" comment. Guess what, just about everything has been discussed before. Opening up discussions again allows new experiences to be introduced and new members to chime in. If I wanted snide or intolerant comments, there are endless other message boards to go to.


If new experiences were to be had from mixing threads then this board probably wouldn't have taken a turn to the "sarcastic, negative, or the standard 'why didn't you search before posting' comment."

I actually agree with you to an extent. Rehashing subjects on a semi-frequent basis would allow for new developments to be discussed. However, as it stands everyone is more focused on inventing the wheel rather than expanding upon ideas that have already been hashed out. That's why there's quite literally a new mixing thread every week. That's why people get sarcastic or negative. If people interested in mixing would learn what's already been discussed and then come up with some new ideas I think you'd see everyone looking at mixing threads in a whole new way.


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## Mapp (May 1, 2010)

> What happened to this board? It used to be full on positive and tolerant comments. Seems now that half the replies are sarcastic, negative, or the standard "why didn't you search before posting" comment. Guess what, just about everything has been discussed before. Opening up discussions again allows new experiences to be introduced and new members to chime in. If I wanted snide or intolerant comments, there are endless other message boards to go to.


Yes, new discussion allows for new ideas. But bringing up a topic that we all KNOW ignites strong opinions (and language, as it seems) just isn't an example of this. 
I can think of one quote that sums up this entire thread:


> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
> -Albert Einstein


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Mapp said:


> Yes, new discussion allows for new ideas. But bringing up a topic that we all KNOW ignites strong opinions (and language, as it seems) just isn't an example of this.
> I can think of one quote that sums up this entire thread:


 
It is fine if a person presents novel thoughts on a topic instead of saying some variation on the same theme of complaining about intolerance. People were just as anti-mixing as when I made my first post on here years ago in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html.. I presented some new outlooks and worked through them and overall it was very civil... some of the pms weren't... but they don't matter. 

Ed


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

Ed said:


> some of the pms weren't


lol, I could only imagine


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

Ed said:


> It is fine if a person presents novel thoughts on a topic instead of saying some variation on the same theme of complaining about intolerance. People were just as anti-mixing as when I made my first post on here years ago in this thread http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/3449-mixing-multispecies-exhibits.html.. I presented some new outlooks and worked through them and overall it was very civil... some of the pms weren't... but they don't matter.
> 
> Ed


You know what's sad? It's only just now that I've read that sticky. And it is very well done!

Ed, do you ever feel like you're beating your head against a wall? I know if I were in your situation sometimes I'd be screaming at the monitor "I already explained that!!!" and then I'd post something pretty mellow....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

SmackoftheGods said:


> You know what's sad? It's only just now that I've read that sticky. And it is very well done!
> 
> Ed, do you ever feel like you're beating your head against a wall? I know if I were in your situation sometimes I'd be screaming at the monitor "I already explained that!!!" and then I'd post something pretty mellow....


Laughs.. on occasion.. If you look at my posts on occasion, I get a lot more terse with some posts... particularly when I have to explain it multiple times.. 

I try to have patience but if you look at my post count, it'll give you an idea of how often I've had to argue points repeatedly...


Ed


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