# Dead, missing, sick, sick.



## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

3 days ago I acquired a secondhand 36x24x24 paludarium housing 2 giant day geckos and 4 d. Leucomelas with a large water area containing fish and shrimp. This is not exactly what you could call an ideal setup and I wanted to fix everything and get all the animals happy and healthy.

The following text is the whole story of the past couple of days, which may contain important information, but the major question is the last paragraph

After I came home with all the stuff and things I had to make sure the animals were good, because I had to go to work in half an hour. The day geckos were put in an empty aquarium with a piece of cork bark and a cork round and the leucomelas were put in with my other leucomelas male, aside from one, which was looking extremely sick and fragile. Weak legs, very thing, quite lethargic. I put him in a quarantine setup. From the little time I had to observe them, the group of leucs was quite aggressive to claim territory, I was very glad I didnt put the weak one in, he would've been squashed.

After I came home from work it was night and all the lights were off.

The morning after I checked on everything, geckos were fine, although they needed a new setup. Frogs all seemed fine, even the sick one. I spent the whole entire day getting the enclosure I got with the animals in order, from a thorough cleaning to getting all the electronics in order to the actual interior. Around 10pm I was finally done. There was a slight problem, 3 of the 4 leucs I got with the enclosure were of the 'banded' locality, so I needed to seperate them before they got to breed, since the one I already had and one of them were standards. I put the bandeds in the big vivarium since I had nothing else ready, and I figured since that the geckos and frogs had been "okay" with eachother for the past ~5 years that they had been with eachother, this was my best option. After the frogs were in I added the geckos. It all seemed good, they were checking out their enclosure. Then I went to bed, because I had to work from noon till closing time the next day and I was exhausted.

I woke up happy and relieved, to have everything in order for now, but that quickly changed. When I checked the new enclosure, I found one of the leucs dead. No wounds or anything that I could see, it looked and acted healthy before, but it had passed. I guessed that it was from all the stress of moving and things. The 2 geckos were both doing good but I couldnt find the other leuc. After that I checked on the sick leuc and he was still alive. The other two leucs, the standards, were also doing good. My original male was acting as he had been for the past half a year I've had him in that tank, jumping around and calling, and the other one was still exploring.
Then I had to go to work the whole day and when I came home it was night.

This morning everything seemed alright again, the two geckos were looking healthy, the standard leucs were still acting normal and the sick leuc was still alive, but I didnt see the banded leuc that was in with the geckos.

Just now I was spraying my tanks, and I noticed that the new standard leuc fell over when I sprayed "on" him. He didn't get back up immediately so I helped him out. He went back to hopping around. Weird. Then I sprayed another tank, and after that I went to check on the leuc again. He was in another place in the tank, but on his back again! For no reason! I got him back on his feet again and he seemed ok. But I am very worried about him, the missing frog and the sick frog. My original leuc is definitely still healthy and so are the geckos, but all the new frogs are not. Does anyone know if I can do anything to save them?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

You've given a lot of good info for repliers to work with. Nonetheless, any backstory on the viv and animals would help, too: timeline on that viv (you said geckos were together five years, but details on when the frogs were added, etc would help), feeding/supplementing history are a couple things that come to mind. Whatever harm has been done to these animals is mostly in the past, so that's where a person should look for details.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

I don't know a lot about the history of the viv, but from what the previous owner told me when we picked it up and the stuff that came with the viv I can piece some things together.

The geckos and frogs were added, I think it was six years ago, to the vivarium. At first it was 3 frogs, but they thought they were all females, so three years ago they added what they thought was a male (the standard morph). 

The vivarium was set up as a paludarium, which I think was very wet. The frogs didn't have a lot of floorspace because of the water feature, but it could've been worse. 

The geckos were fed crickets and "fruit cups", which are not very nutritious AFAIK. On the way over there I picked up a higher quality phelsuma food. The frogs were fed fruit flies. The only supplement that they used is Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All.

The tank has 2 HID Solar Raptor UV lamps and 2 smaller halogen spots.

Before I got it the tank was pretty neglected for idk how long, I'm guessing months. The water was quite dirty and the wood didn't look so good anymore.

There was no leaf litter, and the substrate was very compact muddy stuff mixed with what I think was aquarium gravel.

Thank you


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Oh and two more things:

The male day gecko is currently horizontally sitting on a piece of cork at ground level, and his colors are a bit dullish. Could just be a little stressed from the move, and earlier today he was fine so I'm not too worried, but just putting that out there since I don't know these animals' behaviour yet.

Second thing: there are ants in the viv. I've read that that is bad but I haven't found why. I'm 90% sure that they were already in there but they could've moved in there from the car during transport.

Now that I'm here looking at the new standard leuc I find one thing odd, since he's here he's been a bit dirty. The other doesn't have this problem but the fella just has stuff, like debris, half broken down plant matter on him all the time. Thats also the reason why I pointed at him a little during misting, to get the dirt off.


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## skArts (Oct 11, 2020)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Oh and two more things:
> 
> The male day gecko is currently horizontally sitting on a piece of cork at ground level, and his colors are a bit dullish. Could just be a little stressed from the move, and earlier today he was fine so I'm not too worried, but just putting that out there since I don't know these animals' behaviour yet.
> 
> ...



Sorry still getting used to this forum. I've kept my phelsuma grandis named Samsa for goin on 9 years now, if you have any questions about behaviours or environment requirements please let me know. 
The first thing I'd say is to prep a separate tank for one of them, they are highly territorial and agressive animals, I've heard some anecdotes about keeping them together but I and every other keeper I've known has had to keep them separate except for breeding purposes, and even that gets pretty kinky. They are really hardy, and could probably survive in a pair, but there will be dominance issues even between male/female pairs. That dullish brown colour is usually from basic stressors like moving, bad temps, fighting etc. Make sure they have smooth surfaces to climb on like wide bamboo, or even PVC pipe, mine will never climb on cork bark unless she's hungry and there's a bug on it.

This is a bit more anecdotal, but I've found they really benefit from a good humidity spectrum within the tank, make sure there are good humid spots and good dry spots for them to hangout in beyond the basking area. Mine spends a fair amount of time in the dry corner outside the basking lights


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Second thing: there are ants in the viv. I've read that that is bad but I haven't found why. I'm 90% sure that they were already in there but they could've moved in there from the car during transport.


Gecko diet sorts of stuff attracts ants something fierce if it is left in the viv too long (and even when it isn't left in too long). That's reason #42 on the top 100 list of why not to house geckos and frogs together. 

I'd personally not worry about the ants right now unless you find that they've made a nest in the viv.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

#1 - Separate every species. The quicker the better.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

skArts said:


> Sorry still getting used to this forum. I've kept my phelsuma grandis named Samsa for goin on 9 years now, if you have any questions about behaviours or environment requirements please let me know.
> The first thing I'd say is to prep a separate tank for one of them, they are highly territorial and agressive animals, I've heard some anecdotes about keeping them together but I and every other keeper I've known has had to keep them separate except for breeding purposes, and even that gets pretty kinky. They are really hardy, and could probably survive in a pair, but there will be dominance issues even between male/female pairs. That dullish brown colour is usually from basic stressors like moving, bad temps, fighting etc. Make sure they have smooth surfaces to climb on like wide bamboo, or even PVC pipe, mine will never climb on cork bark unless she's hungry and there's a bug on it.
> 
> This is a bit more anecdotal, but I've found they really benefit from a good humidity spectrum within the tank, make sure there are good humid spots and good dry spots for them to hangout in beyond the basking area. Mine spends a fair amount of time in the dry corner outside the basking lights


Thank you very much. My plan is to seperate them when funds (and time) allow me to do so. What would you say is a good tank size for one gecko?


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Philsuma said:


> #1 - Separate every species. The quicker the better.


Seems like they're sorting that issue out themselves 😬
I will make sure to do that if I can find the remaining frog thats in there, alive.


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## skArts (Oct 11, 2020)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Thank you very much. My plan is to seperate them when funds (and time) allow me to do so. What would you say is a good tank size for one gecko?


 18x18x24 would be the minimum, avoid any deep water features they cant swim. Plan for 2 horizontal smooth branches, one basking one cooler, two diagonal branches and one vertical branch. As for plants, keep it simple, lots of snake plants, they love the broad leaves. I also really like zz plants and pothos for coverage, they're both sturdy enough for a bit of climbing. If you have a bigger tank go wild with accents, I personally have stayed away from any spiked or thorny plants like spiny broms. Their skin tears really easily.
Worth it to invest in a large butterfly net to catch them when they get out, cause they will get out. Also make sure the room they're in is gecko proofed, one apt I lived in had a loose molding panel and she got behind it and into the wall. Got her out with honey and cricket traps to get her out of the wall for food, then a motion camera to tell me when she was out then I sealed it behind her. They can survive several days outside the viv in normal room conditions, I've found they don't like dust, they'll hide inside folded towels, or under model cars and the like. Also light fixtures so be careful turning on lights with a loose gecko. One good way to catch them is with a wet towel near where you lost her with something moveable underneath it.


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## skArts (Oct 11, 2020)

For food, I find a lot of the day gecko diets have too much calcium in them, I don't even dust her crickets any more. If you've got a female keep an eye on the calcium sacks on the sides of her neck, they should be noticeable, but not huge. I'd say maybe half the width of the distance between the eyes is a good target.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

That is a lot of very useful information, thank you very much!!!! Saving that.

I could possibly move a couple things around, once everything stabilises, and I could split a 36x18x24 in two to house them, and in the farther future I'd like to get them 18x18x36's or maybe 24x18x36's.


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## crbonade (May 13, 2021)

Could the frog that keeps ending up on his back be suffering from a vitamin deficiency? Haven't hear of Miner-all yet but if you can, get some Repashy Calcium Plus for dusting every feeding. Doing a board search for frogs on their backs suggests calcium and/or vitamin d3 deficiencies and resulting seizures


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

I use repashy cal+ every feeding and vit a once every 2 weeks to month. I hope that that is the issue, and that it will be resolved.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Reading the label, Miner-all is a legacy product that wasn't all that useful to start with. Clearly not suitable for insectivores.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Should I just throw it in the trash?


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Should I just throw it in the trash?


I would.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Will do.

I wanted to share a picture of the frog I have in quarantine, to show what he looks like, and to get your guys' opinions if he can survive and what would be the best way to make him recover.








EXTREMELY thin and very weak.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Will do.
> 
> I wanted to share a picture of the frog I have in quarantine, to show what he looks like, and to get your guys' opinions if he can survive and what would be the best way to make him recover.
> View attachment 301161
> ...


Ok so this frog looks like it is on its way out, and judging from the fallen-in sides, this guy hasn't eaten anything in a long time. At this point you have to make priorities considering survival. First thing is to get it to eat regardless of underlying problems, and to make sure that the food is good quality. At this stage you also have to be weary of feeding it too much at once, as the sudden influx of food could overwhelm the digestive system and cause the frog to collapse (refeeding syndome).

So if it is willing to eat, get a running fruit fly culture, take some larvae out with a spoon and feed those to the frog, but not too many at once. It might be worthwhile to put those larvae in new medium which has some vitamin powder mixed in. That way the frog will get some urgently needed vitamins. Gradually increase the amount of larvae until it is gaining some weight.

Frogs that are this skinny almost always have issues regarding parasites. It might be worms, but more likely the stress and lack of feeding has caused a boom in flagellates in the intestines. Once you get a fecal sample from the frog (which offcourse requires it to have been eating) run it by a qualified vet if possible. Treat for whatever problem is present, but only start treating once the frog has gained a bit of weight. Any medicine places a burden on the liver and kidneys and starting too soon might just push it over the edge. Even if the frog is full of parasites, getting it to eat fruit fly larvae should make it gain a bit of weight if other environmental parameters are being kept at a reasonably good level.

If the frog does not eat well immediately, consider adding a bit of calcium gluconate to a water bath and place it with the frog. It will give the frog a little energy boost which can help to get it started. Baths are preferred to drops on the back because it causes less stress for the animal.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Sadly I think it's too late. He's ploofed on the floor, no movement. 

Thank you for the very thorough information though


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Sadly I think it's too late. He's ploofed on the floor, no movement.
> 
> Thank you for the very thorough information though


That's a bummer. Granted, at the point the frog was at, chances of recovery were pretty low. 
Regardless it always sucks to lose an animal.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Didn't have much faith either, and it also declined fast, as did the frog, but I still wanted to try. At least it has been an educational experience.

I haven't seen the missing frog since the day he was put in, so I am assuming he passed away too. I'm really confused on what could've killed those two, since they appeared completely healthy.

Luckily the frog that was acting a little off but aside from that good seems to be healthy and normal, so that's that.
Also the day geckos are doing good as far as I can tell. Although I have seen the female bully the male a bit today, it wasn't all that bad.

Thanks to everyone in the thread!


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

skArts said:


> Worth it to invest in a large butterfly net to catch them when they get out, cause they will get out.


You're right lol
Yesterday and today the female got out, she pushed the screen top up and slithered through (my guess). Luckily I caught on fast and catching her didn't cost _too_ much effort. I've taped the screen top to the glass so it can't be moved anymore.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Well... The male day gecko passed away too.. I have no idea what caused it. He'd been a little stressed, but I didn't think it was that bad. He was shedding the last couple of days, and I guess something went wrong? That's the fourth animal to die, out of the six that came with the enclosure. Atleast the female looks very bright and healthy, and the remaining leuc seems to be having fun too.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

lork-the-mighty said:


> Atleast the female looks very bright and healthy, and the remaining leuc seems to be having fun too.


Based on everything you shared , I don't see how you would think this is the case? 

The sole remaining frog 'having fun' or the gecko 'looking healthy' is your interpretation, not a fact. 4 out of 6 animals dead is the fact. 

In order to prevent more disaster, I recommend to act based on the factual information, not interpretation.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

the factual information is that both animals are looking healthy, being active, feeding well and interacting with their environment in a positive way.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

lork-the-mighty said:


> the factual information is that both animals are looking healthy, being active, feeding well and interacting with their environment in a positive way.


Yes, that is your obseveration, but 'looking healthy' still is only your interpretation. Not facts.

Them beeing active or eating is a good thing, but it's certainly not 'THE' indication of them beeing healthy. Not sure what to lead on with 'interacting with the environment'. It could be a possibility there is something very wrong with their enclosure. You might want to post a photo of the tank they were in and the tank you now used to seperate them.

The only thing you know for sure at this point is that you have had animals dying in the past few weeks/days. This indicates there is something seriously wrong and there is a big chance all (remain) animals have underlayi g issues.

I'd defenitly take a swap or fecal sample to a vet to make sure your animals are healthy, not just 'looking healthy' which is only based on your interpretation and short period of experience with your animals.

I don't ment to offend you, but inform you of the situation these animals are in from a neutral point of view.


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Do you still have them together in the same viv?


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

No, the remaining day gecko is on her own in a 90x60x60 vivarium and the leucomelas is with another leucomelas in a 90x45x60 vivarium.


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## lork-the-mighty (May 11, 2021)

Tijl said:


> You might want to post a photo of the tank they were in and the tank you now used to seperate them.











This tank used to house the two day geckos, four frogs and fish/shrimp at the previous owners. I don't have pictures of how it used to be. The hardscape is about the same, but everything under the elevated area used to be water. This currently houses the female day gecko and it housed the male.









This vivarium houses the two leucomelas


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> The only thing you know for sure at this point is that you have had animals dying in the past few weeks/days. This indicates there is something seriously wrong and there is a big chance all (remain) animals have underlayi g issues.
> 
> I'd defenitly take a swap or fecal sample to a vet to make sure your animals are healthy, not just 'looking healthy' which is only based on your interpretation and short period of experience with your animals.


Doing this ASAP, before losing all the animals, will give a chance to save those animals (including your original leuc, which has now been exposed to whatever probable pathogen is making the rounds). 

It will also, hopefully, give you enough info to determine whether you need to strip both those vivs down to the glass before using them again (by identifying the pathogen -- or ruling out all probable pathogens -- and judging from its life cycle whether it can live without a host and for how long).


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