# Multispecies Thumbnail Tank?



## Firawen (Jan 29, 2012)

I read most of the "mixing/muiltispecies exhibits." sticky and couldn't decide if this is a bad idea or not. If I take 3 different species of thumbnail, (for example ventrimaculatus, imitator, and lamasi) and mix one of each in one 18x18x24 exo terra, they can't breed because they are different species, right? Or are they closely related enough so that they can(like horse+donkey=mule)? 

The only reason I'm even considering a multispecies tank is because I want multiple frogs in the tank but I don't have enough space to deal with tads and froglets if they start laying, and I can't guarantee that the frogs I get will all be one sex. I want what is best for the frogs and what is best for the hobby though(e.g. no mixing species/morphs) so any input is greatly appreciated.


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## mrfrogdude (Jun 26, 2011)

The threads clearly state NOT A GOOD IDEA. Easy as that...

Mark

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## goof901 (Jan 9, 2012)

they are closely related enough that they can interbreed. that is how hybrids are formed.


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## randommind (Sep 14, 2010)

Firawen said:


> they are different species, right?





Firawen said:


> I want what is best for the frogs and what is best for the hobby though(e.g. no mixing species/morphs)





Firawen said:


> so any input is greatly appreciated.


Sounds to me like you pretty much cleared it up for yourself.


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## Firawen (Jan 29, 2012)

randommind said:


> Sounds to me like you pretty much cleared it up for yourself.


Haha I guess I did


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Firawen said:


> I want multiple frogs in the tank but I don't have enough space to deal with tads and froglets if they start laying


So, why not just get several proven males or females?

Or, why not sell or give avay any tads/froglets that they produce?


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## Wings (Apr 1, 2012)

Multi species tanks are doable, but very very very very very very difficult to do IMO.  I have been researching it for a while and it is just more of a headache than it is probably worth. People are having success with it, however you define success anyway, but it is a full time job, special feeding regimes, etc. There are too many MORE variables that can come up to really make things troublesome. Mostly being that there is a lot of stress put on the frogs. Now if you have a 75 gallon+ tank, I would say sure, granted you are doing low numbers. Even then I would do something like Leucs and Vents or something.

I say don't do it =D


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Firawen said:


> I read most of the "mixing/muiltispecies exhibits." sticky and couldn't decide if this is a bad idea or not. If I take 3 different species of thumbnail, (for example ventrimaculatus, imitator, and lamasi) and mix one of each in one 18x18x24 exo terra, they can't breed because they are different species, right? Or are they closely related enough so that they can(like horse+donkey=mule)?
> 
> The only reason I'm even considering a multispecies tank is because I want multiple frogs in the tank but I don't have enough space to deal with tads and froglets if they start laying, and I can't guarantee that the frogs I get will all be one sex. I want what is best for the frogs and what is best for the hobby though(e.g. no mixing species/morphs) so any input is greatly appreciated.


Animals with similar shapes and behaviors will often triggere aggression from other animals with similar behaviors and shapes as these are indications that there can be competition between the two for the same resources. 
If your going to go with a multispecies approach, then you really shouldn't be mixing any dendrobatids with other dendrobatids particularly those that use the same niches. 

Ed


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Although we are against mixing species, one mix tank i would do as it occurs in nature would be summersi and banded immitators, they are side by side in nature.


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## Firawen (Jan 29, 2012)

Ed said:


> Animals with similar shapes and behaviors will often triggere aggression from other animals with similar behaviors and shapes as these are indications that there can be competition between the two for the same resources.
> If your going to go with a multispecies approach, then you really shouldn't be mixing any dendrobatids with other dendrobatids particularly those that use the same niches.
> 
> Ed


That makes sense. I'll probably end up doing what hypostatic said and not mixing.

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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> Animals with similar shapes and behaviors will often triggere aggression from other animals with similar behaviors and shapes as these are indications that there can be competition between the two for the same resources.
> If your going to go with a multispecies approach, then you really shouldn't be mixing any dendrobatids with other dendrobatids particularly those that use the same niches.
> 
> Ed


Out of curiosity how would this competition be any diffrent than competition with members of the same species? If animals are going to compete for resources they will do so regardless if they are the same species or diffrent yet similar species. This is more an issue of keeping proper population densities as opposed to mixing. In my experience I have had way more issues with aggression and stress from members of the same species than I have ever seen from diffrent species.

Just some food for thought.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Out of curiosity how would this competition be any diffrent than competition with members of the same species?


This is a good question that I am also interested in finding the answer to.



Julio said:


> Although we are against mixing species, one mix tank i would do as it occurs in nature would be summersi and banded immitators, they are side by side in nature.


I'm also curious as to how these two closely related species (both in the Ranitomeya genus) keep from interbreeding if they both occur so close to each other.

And for that matter, the same question for any of the other species that _R imitator _occurs with.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I Wondered the same thing, however one thing is pretty clear, where there are fants, there are imis.


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

Ed said:


> Animals with similar shapes and behaviors will often triggere aggression from other animals with similar behaviors and shapes as these are indications that there can be competition between the two for the same resources.
> If your going to go with a multispecies approach, then you really shouldn't be mixing any dendrobatids with other dendrobatids particularly those that use the same niches.
> 
> Ed


What about relatively gregorius species?


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

hypostatic said:


> I'm also curious as to how these two closely related species (both in the Ranitomeya genus) keep from interbreeding if they both occur so close to each other.
> 
> And for that matter, the same question for any of the other species that _R imitator _occurs with.


They aren't related close enough to interbreed. imitator and variabilis would be more likely, same with summersi and fantastica. Same genus, different groups though.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Give away? Now that is an awful idea. Dumb dumb dumb.

If you are not going to hold your mistakes - FOREVER (and we'll be here watching), don't even think about doing this.

Better yet, don't even think about doing this, period.

s


hypostatic said:


> So, why not just get several proven males or females?
> 
> Or, why not sell or give avay any tads/froglets that they produce?


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Scott, I think he meant to give away single-species offspring if he didn't want to deal with raising tads, not give away hybrid tads.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

But again, how exactly would you know?

s


fieldnstream said:


> Scott, I think he meant to give away single-species offspring if he didn't want to deal with raising tads, not give away hybrid tads.


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## Firawen (Jan 29, 2012)

Scott said:


> But again, how exactly would you know?
> 
> s


That was how I took it too.

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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

hypostatic said:


> This is a good question that I am also interested in finding the answer to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Closely related species can be reproductive isolated from each other even if they occur in the same area.in this case I would say they are behaviorly isolated, for example through differences in their call


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## fieldnstream (Sep 11, 2009)

Scott said:


> But again, how exactly would you know? s


I took it to mean choose one species/morph (instead of mixing), then give away offspring (eliminating tad-rearing, one of the things Firawen was trying to avoid). Maybe I totally misread it...if so, I totally agree with what you are saying Scott.

@Firawen: Honestly bud, just choose one species/morph. You clearly thought about this quite a bit, and I totally understand the frustration at lack of space, but your best chance at success is to find some adult frogs of the same morph. Or just get some froglets or a pair (you may find that you like watching tads grow up...its really neat! If you need help finding them let me know, there are a couple of local people that keep imis.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

fieldnstream said:


> I took it to mean choose one species/morph (instead of mixing), then give away offspring (eliminating tad-rearing, one of the things Firawen was trying to avoid)


Yes this is what I meant; sorry for the confusion. I was under the impression from an earlier post that the OP had already decided to not mix (see post #5). I think the OP also responded that he interpreted my post the same way as fieldnstream (post #19).

To clarify, I meant keeping a male-only or female only population (of a single species/morph). By acquiring solely proven males or females, the OP should be able to avoid getting any offspring (the OP's main problem is that he doesn't have the space for tads/froglets, not that he just want to mix for the sake of it). I also wanted to say that I don't really have experience with thumbs, so I don't know if a male-only or female-only population would show aggression in between the frogs such as larger frogs like tincs, so I also don't know if this is really a good idea or not (it _was_ proposed as a question, after all).

The other suggestion I gave in that post was meant to be taken if the OP decided to acquire a group of frogs of one species/morph instead of proven adults (this would be the cheaper option for sure). Since he doesn't have the space for rearing the offspring, why not sell or give them away to someone who could rear them appropriately? (Again, this is addressing the OP's main problem, which is the lack of room for dealing with possible offspring). Many thumbs display parental care, so the OP wouldn't even really have to address the issue of using space to raise tads; he would only really have to address the issue of his tank becoming overstocked if any offspring actually survive to the froglet stage.

Again, sorry for the confusion.


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## jackjack2011 (Jun 20, 2012)

You could sell the tads to people if you can't take care of the. Plus, then you make some money to give your frogs an even better life. I know I would buy some tads


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Out of curiosity how would this competition be any diffrent than competition with members of the same species? If animals are going to compete for resources they will do so regardless if they are the same species or diffrent yet similar species. This is more an issue of keeping proper population densities as opposed to mixing. In my experience I have had way more issues with aggression and stress from members of the same species than I have ever seen from diffrent species.
> 
> Just some food for thought.


The issues occur because the signals for submission and/or territorality are typically different between species. This means that one or the other (or both) animal can be excessively stressed since they are not giving the right cues.. One may not recognize the submission cues which means that attempts at aggression are continued (which is a negative for both) or one may not recognize the aggression attempt (calling, physical contact..) which results in continued aggression as the animal doesn't respond with a behavior that would result in a cessasion of aggression. The second issue, is very difficult to detect which is why people often consider intraspecific aggression as the worse of the two since you often have a clear "winner" and "loser". 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

So, I had a 20 gallon vertical tank that housed a group of R.i. varaderos, that i wanted to house my pair of R. summersi. I tried to get the R.i. varaderos out of the tank, but the background had dozens of tiny hideouts, so three female R.i. varaderos were able to evade me.

The pair of R. summersis occupy the floor level in the viv and the R.i. varaderos use mostly vertical space. When the R. summersis are courting or laying eggs, the R.i. varaderos hideout all day. I think it's clear that each knows the other is there, but mostly they stay out of each other's way.

I'm still working at fishing out the R.i. varaderos, but they are quick as hell to hide from me once I open the tank. So, for now at least, I have a mixed tank.

The sky has yet to fall.

Richard.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The imitator hidng all day during courtship by the summersi is a good indication that the cross species territorial issues are recognized...... 

Ed


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## thedude (Nov 28, 2007)

Woodsman said:


> So, I had a 20 gallon vertical tank that housed a group of R.i. varaderos, that i wanted to house my pair of R. summersi. I tried to get the R.i. varaderos out of the tank, but the background had dozens of tiny hideouts, so three female R.i. varaderos were able to evade me.
> 
> The pair of R. summersis occupy the floor level in the viv and the R.i. varaderos use mostly vertical space. When the R. summersis are courting or laying eggs, the R.i. varaderos hideout all day. I think it's clear that each knows the other is there, but mostly they stay out of each other's way.
> 
> ...


I'm not against mixed tanks when they are done right, however I will say, didn't you consider the Varaderos are hiding and skittish due to stress? I would absolutely worry about that in a tank that small.


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi Adam,

The R.i. varaderos are doing really well. They are always out and about (except when I'm trying to catch them!). The only time I see them taking a time out is when the R. summersi are actively courting.

My intention is to get them out of the tank and into their own set-up. I am only offering some personal observations on the two species I have ever housed together. 

I'm not offering any opinion on what anyone else should do with their frogs.

Take care, Richard.



thedude said:


> I'm not against mixed tanks when they are done right, however I will say, didn't you consider the Varaderos are hiding and skittish due to stress? I would absolutely worry about that in a tank that small.


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## mantisdragon91 (Jun 2, 2010)

Ed said:


> The issues occur because the signals for submission and/or territorality are typically different between species. This means that one or the other (or both) animal can be excessively stressed since they are not giving the right cues.. One may not recognize the submission cues which means that attempts at aggression are continued (which is a negative for both) or one may not recognize the aggression attempt (calling, physical contact..) which results in continued aggression as the animal doesn't respond with a behavior that would result in a cessasion of aggression. The second issue, is very difficult to detect which is why people often consider intraspecific aggression as the worse of the two since you often have a clear "winner" and "loser".
> 
> Some comments,
> 
> Ed


This is a reasonable and well thought out explanation. Much better than the *"We don't mix" *BS so many of the parrots on here spout. It also brings much more value to the person considering mixing than a 100 don't do it because we frown on it posts.

My rule of thumb for mixing is rather primitive. Keep animals that the size diffrence is not big enough for one to consider the other prey, provide multiple feeding stations, enough planting to alllow line of sight block and monitor regularly to make sure all specimens are feeding and behaving in a manor which is typical for the species.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Julio said:


> Although we are against mixing species, one mix tank i would do as it occurs in nature would be summersi and banded immitators, they are side by side in nature.


I can see this, but don't get the purpose. I think that most people that want a mixed species viv, want it because the want very different frogs. Summersi and Banded Imitator look so similar that I think it would defeat most people's idea of a mixed tank. I have both, and I can tell them apart, but I'm guessing that most cannot see much difference.



hypostatic said:


> Yes this is what I meant; sorry for the confusion. I was under the impression from an earlier post that the OP had already decided to not mix (see post #5). I think the OP also responded that he interpreted my post the same way as fieldnstream (post #19).
> 
> To clarify, I meant keeping a male-only or female only population (of a single species/morph). By acquiring solely proven males or females, the OP should be able to avoid getting any offspring (the OP's main problem is that he doesn't have the space for tads/froglets, not that he just want to mix for the sake of it). I also wanted to say that I don't really have experience with thumbs, so I don't know if a male-only or female-only population would show aggression in between the frogs such as larger frogs like tincs, so I also don't know if this is really a good idea or not (it _was_ proposed as a question, after all).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clarification. You had me worried there for a minute!

To the OP. You could look into species with a lot of variability. For instance the Understory Tarapoto can range from green to gold to orange. This can even change depending on the angle you are viewing them at. I have Understory Tarapoto that look green, then they hop and upon landing, you'd swear they changed to orange.
You could look at Varadero which can have widely varying patterns of oranges and blues. My new Lowland Fantastica look very different from each other. I have spotted Reticulata and solid red backed Reticulata in the same viv. (Don't worry, they are from the same Understory line.)


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

mantisdragon91 said:


> Much better than the *"We don't mix" *BS so many of the parrots on here spout.


LOL!!! Parrots! Nice...


Anyways, Ed...that was the best and most comprehensible description of 'why not to mix' I've ever read!

And I definitely agree with Pumilo about the tarapoto.

Good Luck!

Tommy


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

It's not like I haven't been saying some version of it for years now... See for example http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...want-reason-not-mix-species-4.html#post362778 

I'm sure I can find other examples where I said it.... 

Ed


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## penaltyboxpunk (Apr 8, 2012)

I was thinking about doing this till I came on this board.I am glad I did being a fish guy that you can mix different kinds of fish together without a breeding problem.I never would have thought about different species of frog breeding together, I would have assumed they would only bred as pairs not bred with a frog from a different pair.Now that I know it could happen I would not do it.I want to say thanks to everyone on this site for the good advice.


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## fishguyturnedfrog (Apr 5, 2012)

There have been some species of fish that given no other option will interbreed. Guppies and mollies have been know to reproduce, swordtails and guppies as well. And the most popular fish that has been hybridized is the parrot fish. Just because they will doesn't make it right unless you're going to keep them for yourself, there's no point in trying to create a new species of any kid of animal.



penaltyboxpunk said:


> I was thinking about doing this till I came on this board.I am glad I did being a fish guy that you can mix different kinds of fish together without a breeding problem.I never would have thought about different species of frog breeding together, I would have assumed they would only bred as pairs not bred with a frog from a different pair.Now that I know it could happen I would not do it.I want to say thanks to everyone on this site for the good advice.


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