# A New Way to Grow Terrarium Plants



## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

*A New Way to Grow Terrarium Plants*

I have been working on this plant culture concept for quite a while and I am finally ready to explain it. I am developing the idea as a product line that hobbyists can use as an apparently novel and new way to grow plants in their terrariums/vivariums. 

Like some already popular vivarium planting methods this system involves a false bottom assembly, but in this case the plate comprising the false bottom is cut with numerous round holes. These holes receive the planters that in turn hold the terrarium plants. 










The false bottom is suspended above the enclosure bottom with cylindrical spacers (lengths of plastic pipe) situated in each of the four corners. The view above shows it sitting on top of the stand used for the whole terrarium setup.

I am currently putting together one of these setups with a standard 30 Tall aquarium. I know that this kind of tank is less than ideal as a frog enclosure, but I want to situate it as a peninsula in our reading room and I think it will make a nice effect with open viewing on three sides. 

Here is the enclosure with the false bottom assembly situated inside.










For use of this system it is critical that openings to the void beneath the false bottom be well-covered; if there are any gaps in the false bottom it will become a dangerous trap for the terrarium livestock. This cloth screen was cut to dimensions slightly larger than the false bottom plastic plate and with holes to match each of the planter holes. When placed inside it seals the between the glass and the false bottom outside edges all the way around. 










I think that the most compelling aspect of this system is that it simplifies the terrarium culture of many kinds of terrestrial plants. I have been having a lot of fun researching aroids, palms and other diverse groups of plants and trying them out with this system. I've observed especially good results with various dwarf palms such as this _Geonoma_ sp..










Since plant roots are contained with the planters, this system makes it easier to manage plants that can become too large or unruly within the terrarium environment. Plants can also be easily rearranged with the terrarium and the plastic assembly components can be reused many times. 

The next picture shows the planting accessories with several plants in place and inside of the terrarium. The plants include two more dwarf palms along with a _Schismatoglottis_ sp. aroid.










The several holes in the false bottom that do not hold plants will be covered with plastic mesh, then the whole false bottom will be covered with a layer of natural forest leaf litter to create a natural forest floor scene inside. I'll post more pictures as I finish building this display next week.

This picture shows a setup that I made for a _Hyla versicolor_ gray tree frog. The native ferns that I planted grew surprisingly well. 










I also used a finished plywood facade to cover up the void area below the false bottom.

While this system creates a very flat terrarium bottom surface, it is pretty easy to develop the vertical space by adding features such as (real or fabricated) tree stumps, woody vines or boulders. Of course the plants will also help to fill the enclosure as they grow up. By piling the leaf litter to slightly different depths you can also create a sense of gently rolling terrain. 

This explains the general way that the planting system works. I am introducing the idea as the "forest floor terrarium", although I know that this term sounds rather awkward and I might change it. I do have a concept for a brand name and logo.










I am currently taking orders for custom kits that include the false bottom cut to match your enclosure dimensions, screen, vertical spacers, planters and potting media. I also have a number of nice plants around here including some already established in planters. 

The forest floor terrarium system and concept is *US Patent Pending*.

I would be interested to hear any questions or observations that you might have.

Thanks for reading!


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## WeeNe858 (Sep 13, 2010)

very interesting technique! thanks for sharing.


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## didi (Feb 21, 2008)

I really like this concept, that you can remove the plants and rearrange them or replace them.
What I was wondering is, do you need a filtration under the false bottom?


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## epiphytes etc. (Nov 22, 2010)

I don't see why one would need filtration. Really, the water underneath would be no different than any other false bottom.

EDIT: Great job on the versicolor tank.


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## B-NICE (Jul 15, 2011)

This is a great idea. Wood seem more useful for taller tanks though. This is great for people who don't want to do too much wrk, and it would seem that the plants will drain better. Would you recommend drilling a hole in the tank? I ask that because I don't see a hole to drain from the inside of the viv.


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## Lbacha (Sep 7, 2011)

Devin

I was reading this post on my phone and didn't see who wrote it the first thing that came to mind when I saw the plants (Palms and Schismatoglottis) wow this guy thinks just like Devin. Ha ha I just opened it on my laptop and lo and behold it's your thread, neat new concept you have going here, for all those who don't know his plants and riparium supplies are great.

Len


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## boabab95 (Nov 5, 2009)

looks good! although what about establishing microfauna? would you just pile more substrate ontop [defeating the purpose of the holes]?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback everybody!



WeeNe858 said:


> very interesting technique! thanks for sharing.


Thank you for reading!



didi said:


> I really like this concept, that you can remove the plants and rearrange them or replace them.
> What I was wondering is, do you need a filtration under the false bottom?


No I don't think that that area requires filtration, but it is important to make sure that the drainage water level does not reach up to the level of the planters. As the water accumulates there it is easy to just remove one of the plants, stick a water-filled hose down inside, and then siphon it out. 



epiphytes etc. said:


> I don't see why one would need filtration. Really, the water underneath would be no different than any other false bottom.
> 
> EDIT: Great job on the versicolor tank.


Thanks! Those plants that I used were all native Wisconsin species and I think that they are now suffering from the lack of winter chill. I think I might stick some small houseplants in there if I can find some that more or less resemble native plants. However the native _Carex_ sp. sedge that I used is still actively growing.



B-NICE said:


> This is a great idea. Wood seem more useful for taller tanks though. This is great for people who don't want to do too much wrk, and it would seem that the plants will drain better. Would you recommend drilling a hole in the tank? I ask that because I don't see a hole to drain from the inside of the viv.


Yes I hope that this system can simplify design, setup and maintenance. Like I mentioned above it is easy to siphon extra water, although a drain could simplify that further. 



Lbacha said:


> Devin
> 
> I was reading this post on my phone and didn't see who wrote it the first thing that came to mind when I saw the plants (Palms and Schismatoglottis) wow this guy thinks just like Devin. Ha ha I just opened it on my laptop and lo and behold it's your thread, neat new concept you have going here, for all those who don't know his plants and riparium supplies are great.
> 
> Len


Thanks man. Another compelling thing about this system is that it can facilitate the culture of plants that haven't been used so much recently in terrariums, which have tended to emphasize epiphytes. Here are some of the cool terrestrial groups that one could try...


palms
Marantaceae
_Alocasia_ and other elephant ear aroids
tuberous aroids, such as the smallest _Amorphophallus_ spp.
other lesser-known small terrestrial aroids, such as _Homolomena_, _Schismatoglottis_, etc.
terrestrial orchids
cyclanths



boabab95 said:


> looks good! although what about establishing microfauna? would you just pile more substrate ontop [defeating the purpose of the holes]?


That is one potential drawback. However, you do have to use quite a bit of litter so it will be a good amount of habitat for them. Microfauna might also use the natural composted media in the planters. The gray tree frog pays them no mind but that display has quite a lot of springtails inside. I think that they rode in on the large stump that I used in there.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

it's nice but you need to allow for the leaf litter or whatever you put in there to drain as well.
so what really could be done is to just use egg crate and make holes for the pots and it will still drain.
with what your using there isn't any drainage except for the pots.
you could drill tons of holes in that material but it will be time consuming.
egg crate is a lot better to use with this...


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

DragonSpirit1185 said:


> it's nice but you need to allow for the leaf litter or whatever you put in there to drain as well.
> so what really could be done is to just use egg crate and make holes for the pots and it will still drain.
> with what your using there isn't any drainage except for the pots.
> you could drill tons of holes in that material but it will be time consuming.
> egg crate is a lot better to use with this...


Remember, there are holes where he didn't use plants and covered them with mesh.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

frogface said:


> Remember, there are holes where he didn't use plants and covered them with mesh.


yeah but you still want for it to all to freely drain...is that not why we use egg crate and LECA? so it drains at every point...
with euro vivs the bottom is slanted so it will run off. this doesn't even slant.
I see drainage issues with this design.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think that egg crate would be pretty awkward. That 1/4" sheet that I use is much more durable than egg crate. I can't even imagine trying to cut neat round holes in egg crate.

Another function of the mesh cloth that covers the false bottom is to create a bit of an air pocket between the false bottom and the leaf litter. I can imagine that leaf litter right on top of the plastic sheet could become very slimy and sour, but as it is with the mesh it dries out well enough so long as there is air circulation in the enclosure. There are lots of points for water to drain on that false bottom sheet. I put as many holes in the sheet as possible to leave plenty of plant positioning options.


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

I have a question. Would this also be a good option for getting marginal plants to grow right in the middle of otherwise well drained substrate, where you just raise up the water level?

Also, would these conceivably (I know it's probably more of a pain) be available set at an angle?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Everybody knows that Brandon and I get along like oil and water, so this is a first, but I'm going to have to agree that he raises a valid point. If it were put on a slight slope by making the front posts 1/2" shorter than the back posts, like Winstonamc is suggesting, that would alleviate any drainage concerns.


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## Lbacha (Sep 7, 2011)

A lot of the plants he is growing actually grow in what is considered an everwet rainforest environment where the soil doesn't drain too well, they are almost bog plants but not quite (a lot of rainforest floor plants in Asia are like this), so humidity would have a big part in that in keeping the soil moist, but aside from that the pots being used are net pots with hydroton and soil in them so drainage won't be a concern unless you use a mix that retains moisture which means it really doesn't matter if it's sloped anyways. A lot depends on the type of plants you want to grow I see a lot of people growing epiphytes on the ground which changes the goals for the soil and moisture retention of the enclosure, I've rambled enough but soil composition is going to have way more impact on drainage than holes in the tray will..


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## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

I'm not really seeing the issue with drainage here, especially being that you're "substrate", in the traditional sense, is simply being used to hide the plastic board from observation. Even if you were building an entire medium layer over the divider (a layer thick enough to actually plant in, as opposed one fulfilling a purely ascetic role), I can't see it being much an issue unless it was significantly bowed. In fact, this should help deal with most medium issues, being that you can specifically tailor the medium for each individual plant


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

hydrophyte said:


> Well, I'm telling you that I have not observed drainage problems. How would you know if you haven't even seen it yet and how would these drainage problems even manifest? The leaf litter in that _Hyla_ display, the setup that I have had going the longest, dries to moist, but does not stay wet all the time. You can come over here and look if you don't believe me.
> 
> An additional feature that I haven't described yet are the airlines that run to the void beneath the false bottom. These create some airflow through the leaf litter which probably dries it some, but their main function is to prevent that void area from becoming stagnant and to keep air moving around the plant roots.


mmmmmm. hydro. like a little DWC under the substrate  killer.

i like it and i think its a kick ass idea. sort of reminds me of a hydro cloning tray.

to those questioning it... what gives? im sure its fine, if your substrate is remaining moist, then you have a poorly designed substrate. its like a potted plant, where the pot may only have a few small holes for water to escape from. if the soil stays too wet its not because the small holes are restrictive, its because the soil your using doesnt allow for proper drainage. 

james


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey everybody thanks again for the interest. I just want to reiterate that this concept really is very simple. If people want to try it out I'm sure they will have a range of observations on their experiences but in general it is all pretty easy to manage.

Like I mentioned before it is important to mist/irrigate so that the media in the pots does not stay too wet. It is organic media and if it gets too wet then it will create anoxic conditions for the plant roots. If there is so much water that the leaf litter is sopping wet then the pots will also be too wet. With the right kind of equipment + enclosure setup it should be possible to maintain humidity inside without drenching the plants and the leaf litter. 

One area that will require more discussion will be the visual design. These setups are oriented more in the horizontal plane, but most frog hobbyists have more experience with vertical 3D backgrounds. Plant selection is also important and will be relevant to the visual design.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks again for the interest everybody.

I would like to request that we refrain from discussing these hypothetical conditions for right now and that the discussion return to the introduction of the general concept.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks I do appreciate the feedback. I just wanted to avoid some of the back-and-forth that was starting to sound like bickering.

I have pondered a plate made with a more porous material, but it would need to be a plastic material more sturdy and easier to work than egg crate. For now I intend to use the solid plastic plate because I know that it works well in the situations where I have used it. If later on I hear that people might prefer materials that drain faster for other situations then I will research that and try to develop something. 

I am aware that this kind of setup might be less favorable for microfauna populations than the popular combination of ABG or similar mix with leaf litter. It will be a smaller area and might not grow as many of them but springtails and isopods will find more favorable conditions where the leaf litter covers the tops of the media in the planter pots. The frog doesn't eat them but them but that _Hyla_ setup has lots of springtails inside.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

This seems to be be perfect for a Wardian case designed to showcase the plants in their own right, as opposed to a terrarium display. Peter Damato's The Savage Garden refers to this kind of tank. It'd be perfect for a single layer of CP's, orchids, or whatever rare flora you wish to display.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Again, thanks for your interest everybody I do appreciate the ideas and let's try to keep the discussion here with a congenial tone. 

This is a very simple, boneheaded concept. I hope that people will find it to be useful but for anybody who might use it will probably require some learning and experimentation to keep the plants happy and to make a convincing visual display.

The void area beneath the false bottom is actually pretty visually distracting. I recommend painting the enclosure glass on the outside to cover that area. For the side you can either paint the whole panel with black paint or just that bottom 3-6" of glass. I have an idea to custom-fabricate a nice finished plastic or thin plywood panel to cover the void in the front. This would be a good spot for the logo . You could also just paint over that front area of glass too.


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## DragonSpirit1185 (Dec 6, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> Again, thanks for your interest everybody I do appreciate the ideas and let's try to keep the discussion here with a congenial tone.
> 
> This is a very simple, boneheaded concept. I hope that people will find it to be useful but for anybody who might use it will probably require some learning and experimentation to keep the plants happy and to make a convincing visual display.
> 
> The void area beneath the false bottom is actually pretty visually distracting. I recommend painting the enclosure glass on the outside to cover that area. For the side you can either paint the whole panel with black paint or just that bottom 3-6" of glass. I have an idea to custom-fabricate a nice finished plastic or thin plywood panel to cover the void in the front. This would be a good spot for the logo . You could also just paint over that front area of glass too.


or use contact paper 
I used spray paint on mine not thinking about this but next time I will use contact paper lol


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I've been wanting to set up an Orchidarium. This might just be perfect for that!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

It could work real well for terrestrial orchids, or you could use it as a base with a few terrestrial and then build up some kind of vertical structure on top for planting epiphytes.


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

A lot of people grow epiphytes in plastic cups with the proper medium. It would make a very nice display.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah so long as you were to blow lots of air into the void area the plants would probably grow alright, but for a better representation of the habitat I think I would prefer planting epiphytes up on a vertical mount. When you get it all set up this kind of terrarium looks just exactly like the ground in a forest and epiphytes just don't grow in places like that.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey I was reminded about pictures of some really cool plants that JoshH posted a while back. _Chlorospatha_ are true terrestrial aroids and they are an example of uncommon, unusual collector plants that you could showcase in a setup like this.

I sure would like to try some _Chlorospatha_. They aren't easy to find. 



JoshH said:


> Chlorospatha hannoniae
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## frogfreak (Mar 4, 2009)

I agree. Your idea certainly looks better than a bunch of pots showing. 

orchidarium.com


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## Ghost vivs (Sep 26, 2010)

What about having it in two sections with different hole layouts. (One section would work for smaller vivs) Some with more holes some with less. There would be more support and make more options for wood placement and backgrounds. Just an idea. But ether way your on the way to a hell of a product! 

Casper


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just remembered another relevant link...

Boyce & Yeng. The Aroids of the West Sarawak Limestone

That's a really cool article.

_Alocasia_ are another example of promising plants to try with this system. It would be especially cool to look for some of the less common/new species _Alocasia_.

In a regular vivarium and Alocasia might start to get too big pretty fast, but in one of these setups you could control its size by keeping it in a smaller pot.


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

Perhaps a background piece, where the pots slot into the holes at an angle, for epiphytes?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think that hte easiest way to keep epiphytes in a setup combined with these would be to have a free-standing structure like a tree stump--natural, or fabricated--and just set it right on top of the false bottom. I didn't palnt epiphytes on it but that is what I did for this setup.










That is a real tree stump in there. I cut the top and bottom flat.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Nice work, this does work well for being able to house potted plants in the base of any viv, Many of us used to make these for our desert vivs as it was the only way to keep greenery in with the kimberly rock monitors, we just covered it with sand and gravel. As for draining them we used pop vents with extra screen epoxied over them. 
I currently make these with 1 3/4'' and 2'' pots for the growing trays in order to propagate plants in the domed grenhouse trays. It helps to limit the growth of the root ball for better planting in a viv.

Good luck with it.

Id also recommend a very good draining substrate if you use this idea. I have tried it in vivs and found the media stayed wetter with this.



hydrophyte said:


> *A New Way to Grow Terrarium Plants*
> 
> I have been working on this plant culture concept for quite a while and I am finally ready to explain it. I am developing the idea as a product line that hobbyists can use as an apparently novel and new way to grow plants in their terrariums/vivariums.
> 
> ...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yep you are right this is like a variation of some methods that people have already been using, but I hope to get it fully resolved as a product line with these user-friendly kits.

I have wondered about using this with desert vivs, but I haven't tried it yet.

Yes the drainage through those pots is tricky because down in that void space the humidity must be near 100%. I think that the airline running to the void space is very important. The potting mix that I have been using is 1:1 pro mix plus hydroton and it drains well, but still stays very wet after watering. For using these in a dart frog viv I think it will be best to time misting for short durations so that it will maintain humidity. but not run off and run down into the planters.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

If I were you I would market these with hydroponic baskets, makes drainage much easier, its what i used in many of the setups. There are a few places you can get them wholesale to offer complete kits with. As for the media I found using a mostly charcoal, sphagnum and orchid bark media did well. I never had much issue with plants not adapting to it. 

As for the desert vivs, it works well, it really cuts back on the weight of the viv and excess sand you need in order to normally cover up and go around the plant pots. I used a more dense soil mix though for holding humidity in the roots, 

This setup idea overall really does help mange the root structure of the plants in the vivs and makes it possible to mswap out a plant if needed without completely ripping up the viv.

Michael




hydrophyte said:


> Yep you are right this is like a variation of some methods that people have already been using, but I hope to get it fully resolved as a product line with these user-friendly kits.
> 
> I have wondered about using this with desert vivs, but I haven't tried it yet.
> 
> Yes the drainage through those pots is tricky because down in that void space the humidity must be near 100%. I think that the airline running to the void space is very important. The potting mix that I have been using is 1:1 pro mix plus hydroton and it drains well, but still stays very wet after watering. For using these in a dart frog viv I think it will be best to time misting for short durations so that it will maintain humidity. but not run off and run down into the planters.


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

hydrophyte said:


> Yep you are right this is like a variation of some methods that people have already been using, but I hope to get it fully resolved as a product line with these user-friendly kits.
> 
> I have wondered about using this with desert vivs, but I haven't tried it yet.
> 
> Yes the drainage through those pots is tricky because down in that void space the humidity must be near 100%. I think that the airline running to the void space is very important. The potting mix that I have been using is 1:1 pro mix plus hydroton and it drains well, but still stays very wet after watering. For using these in a dart frog viv I think it will be best to time misting for short durations so that it will maintain humidity. but not run off and run down into the planters.


i dont see why it would be a problem. the airline tubing is nice and like i mentioned earlier it seems like its very similar to a deep water culture hydroponics set up (with the airline tubing). ive used DWC for years in a number of different growing operations with excellent success. the extremely high humidity doesnt seem to affect the plant's growth in any negative way when the water remains well oxygenated. in fact i often see new leaf sets appear on a daily basis, in cases producing such vigorous growth that leaves appear mutated by the process. perhaps you could take a page from the hydroponics book and use s super well draining medium like tiny rockwool cubes, crushed lava rock or mini LECA (or a combination of these) and ditch the organic element completely. if you added an appropriate air diffuser and placed the air line underwater you would have what i might consider to be the perfect terrarium hydro set up 

very basic explanation but one that accurately describes what i'm referring to (although i have to believe that you already know all about this hydrophyte )
Deep water culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


how are the legs attached to the top panel BTW? are the molded in, glued on, or does it just rest on them?


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## winstonamc (Mar 19, 2007)

Just out of curiosity, why not put a layer of substrate or clay/substrate rather than just leaf litter on top? Wouldn't you derive all the benefits of the design and still be able to have a wider breadth of planting area? A higher substrate level would allow the pots to serve as drainage with the only risk being that the potted plants would root out horizontally into the main substrate (which you could partially avert by screening them over at the rim). This would work particularly well if you were growing emersed plants with a high water table.

In any case, I'd say Hydrophyte or someone else should do a little mock-up rainforest set up, see how it goes wt respect to substrate humidity etc


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I think that if you were to put substrate on top of the false bottom you really would have drainage problems. Plus you would also loose the benefit of the modularity with easy removal and rearrangement of the plants. 

I also would not recommend having the water up as high as the false bottom or the planters. I think you would just end up with a wet, smelly mess if you did that. The planters have a coarse organic potting media in them, which really isn't suitable for hydroponic growing. If it stays saturated all the time it will just start to rot and kill the plant roots. Trust me, I have killed a few plants already in those planters where they stayed too wet.


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## GRIMM (Jan 18, 2010)

I think its a good idea, however in my opinion it has a little ways to go before marketing it as a vivarium product. I think right now it is more geared towards using in a "grow out tank", but with some changes I really think it could be an easy pop-in tool for people who dont like all the work. Just throwing some ideas and thoughts out there....

At least for me, I like my tanks to look clean, and minimalistic from the outside. I can only assume most people try and strive for the same thing. Thats means a submersible substrate is the only thing I want to see against the glass. Using your current design means some sort or exterior modification and one more thing to try and make match with everything else (meaning more work for you, and more work for the person who buys it)

In addition, I think a slight slope would be a wise choice. Then it would completely get rid of all the "will it, or will it not drain?" posts/naysayers. Not only would it help with drainage, but it would give the tank more depth and height in the back.

If I didnt always want to build my own stuff, this is what I would want to buy. And yes, it looks like a piece of swiss cheese 










The back end would be completely open, and put directly agaisnt the back pane of glass with no gap. Then two sloped piece of plexi for the sides, and one across the front with a few cutouts to allow for drainage. The overall box would allow for a 1/2" gap between it and the tank (not including the back). The bottom cutouts could then be covered with small amounts of mesh to block the selected substrate that would wrap around the perimeter of the box. Doing it this way could save you time making that exact mesh basket in the original design. Most importantly it would remove the need for some sort of exterior modification to the tank. If a larger span was needed, you could use a piece of pvc for support in the center.

And as for the microfauna...As long as a thick enough layer of leaf litter is put ontop of the box, they will thrive. I had 3 cultures comprised solely of leaf litter and they did amazing. The only problem was that the leaves I used decomposed way to quickly.

Whadaya say....Split the profits 20/80???


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yes I have cooked up a construction like that too, but the way to do it is probably with a vacuum-molded form as a single piece. Trying to bond several plastic pieces like that would be too costly. With that kind of construction you could give the shape other gentle relief features like swales and short rises in addition to a slope. 

However, the flat plate as it is works really well and it is more adaptable and sturdy than any kind of sloped form would be. I have explained this several times already, but the spot where I have observed drainage issues is in the media in the bottoms of the planter pots, not in the leaf litter on top of the false bottom. I manage this issue by adjusting the irrigation frequency and duration and also with the airline ventilation.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I also wanted to explain that although I do appreciate the product-related feedback, I am extremely tired of these feuds with bickering posts that some respondents have brought into this thread. I think that this is very rude. I am reporting to the moderators any such posts in this thread or any other thread that I start.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I butchered this thread in an attempt to get it back on track. Any more hijacking or squabbling, and infractions will be issued.

Carry on!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thank you Zach!

I hope to post some more updates here soon.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got my blackjungle.com order Thursday and everything looked very good. The box was cold inside, but the plants did not seem to have suffered any cold damage. Here is what I got...


_Monocostus uniflorus_
_Blechnum brasiliensis_
_Seemania sylvaticus_
_Asplenium x ebenoides_
_Begonia_ species U496

It took me a whole afternoon browsing their catalog and Googling to pick these out. I tried to select among plants that grow as true terrestrials and I was looking for a few other characteristics too, including ease of propagation. I read that that _S. sylvaticus_ propagates freely via rhizomes (sorry if that is not the botanically-correct term) and the _Monocostus_ is the same way. 

I'm not sure about habitat associations of that _Begonia_ whether it's a terrestrial or more likely a lithophyte.

That Asplenium fern is a neat little plant. It is apparently a natural hybrid between A. platyneuron and A. rhizophyllum. Like the latter species it can "walk" propagating via plantlets on the leaf tips. I have some rhyziphyllum going in another setup and it looks happy enough, though it only grows very slowly.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

The Seemania sylvatica is a very fast growing gesneriad that is perfect for drip walls and other damp applications. It not only produces rhizomes, but also sends out long stringy propagules to colonize the space around it. Should work well with your somewhat hydroponic style of riperian growing, and of course the new methods you have introduced here.

Nice fabrication and design by the way!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks Josh!

Yes I found those funny propagules in the pots with the _Seemania_. They looked just like fat beetle grubs and they were way down at the bottom of the pot. 

There must be a most-correct term for those things(????).

Do you know what would be the real habitat association for that_ S. sylvaticus_? Does it grow on rocks?


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

There are both rhizomes that are part of the plant's root system, and wiry propagules that shot out almost parallel to the ground. They seem to make those most when kept pot bound....

BTW, the synonym is Gloxinella sylvatica...

The natural habitat is definitely along streams and waterfalls/seepages in Bolivia, Ecuador, and Peru......on constantly damp rocks and logs, growing in moss. These photos would be similar to their natural habitat, although this was in the rainforests of Dominica, the habitat is quite similar....


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey those are cool pictures thanks for linking those.

A couple of them have a plant with bifid leaves it looks like a Cyclanthaceae. Do you know what that is? I really want to track down some more Cyclanthaceae.


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

hydrophyte said:


> Hey those are cool pictures thanks for linking those.
> 
> A couple of them have a plant with bifid leaves it looks like a Cyclanthaceae. Do you know what that is? I really want to track down some more Cyclanthaceae.


Haha, we apparently have similar tastes! I've been after those a long time, they are an Asplundia species. All get huge, but I still wanted to experiment with seedlings and see if root confinement could keep them small. I am working with some seeds but so far no germination. All are large, scrambling climbers and epiphytes from South and Central America, and of course the Caribbean. Good luck and pm me if ya ever get ahold of some!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have Panama hat plant and that is as far as I have gotten. I have it in a 3" pot and that seems to be limiting the size. 

I recently saw a dozen 'Jungle Drum' at one of our local garden centers. They were real nice-looking plants but too big for a viv.

They have seeds for four different species right here...

rarepalmseeds.com - palm seeds, cycad seeds, banana seeds


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I was at our local botanical garden the other day and got some pictures of some plants that could work well with this. Most of these are true terrestrials and I was looking for plants that don't grow so tall.

_Amomum compactum_ - a dwarf cardomum









_Chorigyne cylindrica_ - like most cyclanths this one gets pretty big. However, it should be possible to keep larger plants like this in a viv for a while by just underpotting them. I have Panama hat plant plant (_Carludovica palmata_) in a 3" pot and it seems to be slowing its growth at only about 12" tall. Cyclanths are cool










_Costus tappenbeckianus_ - this is another nice spiral ginger. I don't see much commerical availability for it. These plants were only 6-14" tall, so shorter than a lot of gingers.









_Dracontium pittieri_ - I think that the larger tuberous aroids are anoth compelling group to try out. This _Dracontium_ is about 9' tall, but if you grow something like this or a _Amorphophallus_ sp. from a very small tuber you can have a plant just 6-12" tall. Since it is in the planter it will be easy to remove and manage dry for its dormancy.









_Geogenanthus poeppigii_ - "seersucker plant", I'd like to get some of this one; it's not too hard to find. It is a real nice groundcover.









_Monocostus uniflorus_ - I do have this one, I got it in a recent blackjungle.com order.









_Siderasis fuscata_ - a commeline. I want to get this plant.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I finally got the tank and I'm making headway with my 37G setup. 

I have more pictures in the journal thread for this one.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

Need to ask them to pot up a few offsets or cuttings for sale. I will ask next time I'm there. Nice pics. I saw a cool climbing pandus in Maui this week unfortunately there were none for sale.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Do you know anybody there? Unless they have a sale going on most botanical gardens are guarded about sharing their collections with laypeople.

I haven't noticed a whole lot of especially compelling plants there in the conservatory. Most of it is stuff that is already around in the trade. I bet they have better material in the back in their culture greenhouses.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

We're going to pick up the first run of laser-cut, custom-fabricated plates tomorrow!!!


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

dont know anyone well anymore since ed left for janesville rotary gardens, but i am a lifetime member. maybe if i ask they will cut a few things for the spring sale. i get in early with my membership so i could then swoop in and get the good stuff. some other things to try may be some native club mosses. i have a couple really cool ones growing by the acre in some cedar woods. this is native habitat for the tree frogs as i have alot of them around me. also some cool ground living bushy lichens in the area.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

The first standard kit is now available. This one is for 12" X 24" fish tanks and I started a sales thread for it right here...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants-supplies-classifieds/78951-introductory-offer-12-x-24-forest-floor-terrarium-kit.html

I apologize that I do not have better pictures yet, but I have a complete description there. I am trying to recover my blog hosting password and when I do I'll post more pictures.


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## DinoFuel (Feb 15, 2012)

Great post and thanks for the tips!


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## JoshH (Feb 13, 2008)

I think that aside from the hobbyist level, this product has serious potential in professional/institutional settings. Aside from darts, it would be extremely useful when keeping herps that are destructive to terrarium plants as they can be easily replaced, or even rotated to keep the enclosure looking good. Also, keeping the plants confined has great advantaged when dealing with certain digging species. Even desert themes could work here, with sand and other inert materials surround the soil containing pots.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

JoshH said:


> I think that aside from the hobbyist level, this product has serious potential in professional/institutional settings. Aside from darts, it would be extremely useful when keeping herps that are destructive to terrarium plants as they can be easily replaced, or even rotated to keep the enclosure looking good. Also, keeping the plants confined has great advantaged when dealing with certain digging species. Even desert themes could work here, with sand and other inert materials surround the soil containing pots.


Yes I have that as part of my plan to put together a promotional kit for natural history museums, schools, zoos, etc.. 

I just have so many different things to do!

It might be possible to use this system with other kinds of substrate, but leaf litter is the first most logical choice. I don't have much of any recent experience with reptiles, but it seems like most of the digging species should be given room to dig. If you were the set one of these up with a thin sand layer the only place to dig would be the planters with the plants. 

Most of the desert areas that I have ever visited were pretty flat, so the flat plate with nice desert plants growing out of it and a nice substrate layer. could make a good visually appealing approximation of how those habitats look.


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## EvilLost (Jan 10, 2011)

@Hydrophyte: i think your system will adapt very naturally to a desert build. I have used a similar technique (albeit using foam) combined with clay, which I then baked, resulting in a very realistic desert floor. I finish it off by adding sand and rocks for effect.

Additionally, I fill the false floor area with burrowing material and purposely leave one of the openings...open (but I cover it with a piece of wood so its not visible). This allows the snake to still burrow. Similarly, I place their water bowl in a larger hole and cover the edges of it with rocks as well.

However, a suggestion I would have is to have some form of clamps to hold the planters DOWN. The current problem I have run into with my design is that when my snake does burrow, he pushes the planters up from beneath or sometimes he attempts to burrow from other locations (like "into" the planters). 

Still also has another added benefit in that the snake will pretty much always poop ABOVE ground. Since the burrowing material is separated by the false floor, it makes clean up much easier; I can go upwards of 6 months before a deep clean is needed, but when I just pour the woodchips in directly, I typically have to clean it out monthly or at most bi-monthly


Here are some pics of what I mean: https://plus.google.com/photos/1101...ms/5647653726792573697?authkey=CNWikciUpN6VQA


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

That is a real nice setup that you put together! I think that for now I have plenty to do just explaining the idea of using it with leaf litter. It can yield an especially attractive and convincing result with leaf litter. 

I have thought about inserts to go into the false bottom plate to hold substrate for digging animals and also small pools for water. It wouldn't be too hard to make something like that with a vacuum-molded piece of plastic and then the false bottom would just need holes to match.

I haven't been able to find it again but there is already somebody who manufactures a molded and textured insert with holes for planting that is similar to what you made, but yours is nicer.


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## Affordable Exotics (Mar 1, 2012)

Really cool. I am gonna try this. I must say though,asthetically I like my leca....


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## Affordable Exotics (Mar 1, 2012)

I might have missed it,nut what are you using to cut the holes in?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks! A contractor cuts them for us with a CNC router.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm making a little more headway with the 37G. I thin I found a planting layout that I like. Now I just need to repot these plants--I'm using ABG mix for all of them--and add the leaf litter.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's another quick picture that I got yesterday. This shows all of the parts that I have with that 12" X 24" kit.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got leaf litter into the 37 and here's a quick picture...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

It's takin' a while but I am getting closer to having the packaging ready. 

Here's a sticky label for the 12" X 24" kit.


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## cosyis77 (Mar 12, 2012)

smart way!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Yep it works real nice.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got thedwarf tree fern _Blechnum brasiliense_ into the 30G tank that I am setting up for fossil plants...










I have a journal for that project right here...

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/plants/80195-fossil-history-plants-30g-paleo-viv.html


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Just tonight the _Zamia vasquezii_ that I got for my paleo viv setup came in the mail...


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here are the little _Gyna lurida_ nymphs that I got for my planted paleo terrarium project.










It's going to take a few months before I have adults, but I hope they will grow pretty fast. I have already seen a couple of molts and I've only had them a few days.










The adults of this species are really handsome, for being roaches anyway. Check out this linked image...

http://www.roachcrossing.com/gyna.jpg


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

...more updates on the way pretty soon I hope.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have some news! I just loaded the pdf instruction sheet for the 12" X 24" kit to my blog. Here's the link...

http://hydrophytesblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/forest-floor-12-x-24-complete-i.pdf


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## Scoobs (Nov 15, 2010)

What sizes do you offer? Do you have any larger sized ones available for sale?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Scoobs said:


> What sizes do you offer? Do you have any larger sized ones available for sale?


Currently I just have the 12" X 24" kit (fits Aqueon aquariums) and the 18" X 18" kits (fits Exo Terra terrariums). 

It looks like with a minor modification a pair of the 18" X 18" kits will match a 65G Aqueon fish tank. 

What size enclosure are you using?


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I just set up a quick Facebook page for Selva Terrarium. Please check it out and give it a "like" if you do the whole Facebook thing...

Selva Terrarium | Facebook


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a few new pictures of the 65G with the_ Hyla versicolor_. The plants are looking good.










It has been interesting to see the responses of those plants over time. A few of them are native Wisconsin plants, but they are doing just fine despite the lack of winter dormancy.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Here are a couple more pictures to show the plants.

I believe this to be Korean rock fern (_Polystichum tsus-simense_).










And this is a _Gallium_ bedstraw. This is a Wisconsin-native plant, but it has been growing fine in here without a winter cold dormancy.


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## skanderson (Aug 25, 2011)

short of roundup i dont think you can kill the gallium. even with roundup i have trouble controlling it. its almost as bad as canadian thistle.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

It looks nice in small doses though. We have it scattered around our yard and it's not really invasive.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Mantises, like this P_hyllocrania paradoxica_ ghost mantis, are excellent livestock choices for well-planted Forest Floor terrarium setups.


Phyllocrania-paradoxica-1-VII-12-I-m 

There are a lot of great plants you could combine with this cool little bug.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey! I recently signed up as a sponsor here with the Selva Terrarium product line. 

I don't think there is anything like a sponsors news sub-forum here, but I hope to list one or two Dendroboard exclusive deals in Sponsor Classifieds sometime soon, so watch out for that.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Hey thanks for the like jacobi!


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## jacobi (Dec 15, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> Hey thanks for the like jacobi!


Your quite welcome 
Any plans to offer plants more frequently?


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## Duff (Aug 4, 2011)

Very cool! So happy to see all your ideas, I've been more then please with everything I've ever ordered from you, Devin! I swear I'm not stalking you - following you from board to board  you've just opened my eyes to so many cool things! I still plan to do the Forest Floor in my 20g now that it is empty but had to try my hand at building a GS/peat background - which I refuse to do in my acrylic tank! But the acrylic tank will be perfect for your system. 

Keep up the awesome work and ideas - 

For everyone else - Devin is wonderful to work with and puts out quality supplies, don't hesitate in ordering from him, you'll be very pleased!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Thanks so much Duff! I really appreciate it.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a few new plant pictures tonight. 

The various dwarf gingers that I got in trade are doing great! These things are so easy to propagate. All you have to do is leave the cut canes on top of the substrate in high humidity, and right away they start to root and bud from the leaf nodes. 

This one is NOID ginger. The original plant was only about 10" tall.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I have been meaning to explain this soil mix that I use for the planters in the Forest Floor kits. It contains sphagnum peat, shredded sphagnum moss, clay gravel and a special cured orchid bark that lasts a lot longer than regular orchid fir bark.



It works real well. It has very sharp drainage, but still retains moisture for plant roots. It is similar to ABG mix. I became fristrated with all of the extra dust that came with fine charcoal and shredded tree fern and that is why I formulated this more simple mix.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I got a few new pictures of the 65G _Hyla versicolor_ display that is over at the children's museum. The plants have grown in well. This setup is supposed to be a native Wisconsin biotope. It includes some true native plants, mainly ferns, and a few stand-in plants that look more or less like temperate woodland species.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I've posted this picture around here and there, but here is a quick shot fo the planting in my 37G with the _Avicularia metallica_ in there and names for the plants. I'm working on another better version of this photo...just need to get the glass and everything clean again and set up a couple of extra clamp lights.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

Quick selection of plant that I put into my 30 X High fish tank...


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## daswooten (May 5, 2010)

It is a good thing that you can easily remove those pots - some of those plants get really big!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

daswooten said:


> It is a good thing that you can easily remove those pots - some of those plants get really big!


Yep that is one advantage of the movable/removable pots.

Some of those plants can grow big, but they are all easily controlled with pruning. Gingers are especially easy to manage this way. And you can also propagate gingers with the pruned canes--just put the canes horizontally on some moist substrate and they will start to root and sprout from each node.


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## hockeyboy (Oct 7, 2012)

Very interesting tecnique


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## eileenb714 (Oct 29, 2011)

I really like this idea! I have an online moss business but get lots of questions about plants in their vivs and terrariums and I will be sharing this with my customers!


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

hockeyboy said:


> Very interesting tecnique





eileenb714 said:


> I really like this idea! I have an online moss business but get lots of questions about plants in their vivs and terrariums and I will be sharing this with my customers!


Thanks! I hope to have some more setup pictures on the way pretty soon. My plants have been growing well. The tarantula setup is looking especially good right now.


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## hydrophyte (Jun 5, 2009)

I took a few hours today to cook up some more literature and other media. This is a ledger-size poster that I made for physical retail display...


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