# confused over shipping bean beetles



## Ilovebugs (Jul 28, 2012)

I am confused why people are posting that they can't ship bean beetles over state lines? I looked and they are not on APHIS and they are considered a secondary host, so you need no permit from USDA. Also, the state of Oregon has them on their approved insect list to be shipped into the state for studding purposes. Also, Carolina biological supply has them as a no permit or state restriction able to ship item. Am I missing something on why they can be shipped? I am not trying to stir up anything. I am honestly confused because everything is pointing out that you can ship them.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ilovebugs said:


> I am confused why people are posting that they can't ship bean beetles over state lines? I looked and they are not on APHIS and they are considered a secondary host, so you need no permit from USDA.


I don't think you understand the regulations. It doesn't matter if they are explicitly stated as a regulated plant pest by APHIS or not...that list is for the most commonly intercepted pests... 
According to the APHIS, a plant pest is explicitly defined as 


> “Plant Pest - The term “plant pest” means any living stage of any of the following
> that can directly or indirectly injure, cause damage to, or cause disease in any
> plant or plant product:
> (A) A protozoan.
> ...


From http://www.aphis.usda.gov/biotechno...PPA_DefinitionsForNoxiousWeedAndPlantPest.pdf and part of a response I recieved see http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...r-feeders-approved-aphis-usda.html#post527682 

Which renders the whole "secondary host" argument moot since they cause direct damage to the seeds and can do so if the seeds are in storage, or still in the field. 




Ilovebugs said:


> Also, the state of Oregon has them on their approved insect list to be shipped into the state for studding purposes. Also, Carolina biological supply has them as a no permit or state restriction able to ship item. Am I missing something on why they can be shipped? I am not trying to stir up anything. I am honestly confused because everything is pointing out that you can ship them.


Simply because a state or university has them as an approved study animal doesn't mean that they do not require permits from APHIS for interstate shipping. And I can't speak as to why Carolina doesn't have them listed as requiring a permit. You would have to ask Carolina since that is directly opposite to the response (see below) I recieved from APHIS. 

As a final item, specifically asked APHIS if Callosobruchus maculatus aka bean beetles aka cow pea weevil/beetle required permits. This was the response from APHIS http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/fo...feeders-approved-aphis-usda-2.html#post529254 The response was short and direct to the point. If you don't believe me, feel free to ask them again. Try [email protected] 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ilovebugs (Jul 28, 2012)

Thanks for the interesting links. I do understand it better now. Now, I have a question then about all insects being breed all over the usa. What about people breeding mealworms? Wouldn't they be a pest too because they get into stored grains. Do mealworm companies have permits for these? Can anyone apply for pest permit for bean beetles. How are the biological supply companies able to ship bean beetle with no problems to any state? All of this is very interesting.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ilovebugs said:


> Thanks for the interesting links. I do understand it better now. Now, I have a question then about all insects being breed all over the usa. What about people breeding mealworms? Wouldn't they be a pest too because they get into stored grains. Do mealworm companies have permits for these? Can anyone apply for pest permit for bean beetles. How are the biological supply companies able to ship bean beetle with no problems to any state? All of this is very interesting.


Currently, APHIS does not require permits for the house cricket (Acheta domestica), Madagascan hissing roaches, mealworms and most fruit flies (some like the Mediterranean fruit fly require permits). You can confirm this with APHIS. 

As for Carolina not listing it, I would suggest asking either them or APHIS....


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## Ilovebugs (Jul 28, 2012)

Great! Good source of info. I love figuring out stuff, so now I have a new mission. I had no idea on how shipping pests went. I have only shipped non pests like springtails, but not the plant types. I was wondering how the pests shipped. I have seen hundreds of sites offering pest type insects for sale, and I would think the larger companies are legit? I know isopods are considered pests too for nurseries. And, I love isopods. I will have to research more about this for my own insane interestes.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A lot of the trade in invertebrates on the internet is illegal and a lot of it blatently so... I would suspect we would see a much greater level of enforcement if a lot of the resources were better funded and emphasis hadn't been put on the war on terror (bioterrorism). 

All because nurseries consider something a plant pest doesn't mean that it is regulated as one. For example some butterflies and moths are technically plant pests but aren't regulated as one (painted ladies for example). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ilovebugs (Jul 28, 2012)

True.. True ... It seems that APHIS is classifing plant pest as those that distory agricultual crop or is having an impact on native species. I guess you would have to go to the mouth of the source to find out if it really is a pest or not unless it is stated in plain text?

Now days it is hard to tell what the USDA will allow and not allow. And, I know they can't just make a list because the USDA encompass so much. I breed chickens and I need to get my NPIP certs from the USDA, wow what a search for how to do it. I put an email out to Aphis on how to ship them with a permit. Also, they have a number to contact. I understand the biosecurity stuff. I also grow plants, and they don't want something taking over the natural ecosystem. 

I got down to the nitty gritty on how to ship hatching eggs in the us legally by cert., and how to import live plant species legally by permit, now I will get the scoop on how to ship bean beetles. And, if it is feesable for the average Jo to do. I was reading and many sites were saying they don't grant permits easily for plant pests. 

Thanks for the great infomation! I really was confused on the posting situation, but that was partly because I had not looked into shipping insects that much. I usually get them not ship them. Hopefully, I am able to find out something new!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

An ex-colleague of mine of mine attended one of the big invert conferences (this one Sonoran Arthropod Studies Institute, SASI Online, Bugs, Insects, Arachnids, entomology and more.) and the USDA had a representative from APHIS there talking about the invertebrate trade... To sum it up, they want to actually crack down on it.. in no small part because people are ignoring the permit requirements and just shipping known plant pests or selling them openly (such as walking sticks). This has actually resulted in some significant infestations that cost a lot of tax payer money to clean up. 

This is a link to a discussion on pharasmids http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/lounge/18303-walking-stick-pic-2.html#post167127 

The person who responded is the person who should still be in charge of permitting plant pests so you can address any questions to him if you choose... 

Some comments 

Ed


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## Ilovebugs (Jul 28, 2012)

Ed, have you ever got a permit from APHIF before? Or did you take interest into the subject matter? I was just wondering? My deam would be to run one of those biological supply companies, but it sounds like there is a lot of leg work. What I am interesed in is how the permits work. Once, you do get a permit then what??? Thanks for the link.


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## Ilovebugs (Jul 28, 2012)

Well, I have been making it down my list of cultures that I own which I have called aphis about to see if you are able to ship them. I got the okay to ship without a permit for 4 nematode species. The interesting one was the 2 different white worms that I have which are related to the earthworm. Aphis site says you need a permit for earthworms. But, talking further with a worm specialist you don't need a permit for annelids to be shipped in the continental United States. I am very curious to see how bean beetles will be. Now, importing / exporting will need a permit, but if they are already here and establish then that's when the permits get hazy........ very very interesting.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Ilovebugs said:


> Ed, have you ever got a permit from APHIF before? Or did you take interest into the subject matter? I was just wondering? My deam would be to run one of those biological supply companies, but it sounds like there is a lot of leg work. What I am interesed in is how the permits work. Once, you do get a permit then what??? Thanks for the link.


While I still worked for the zoo, I was involved in part of the permitting process to display some inverts (hercules beetles) in addition, since I have more than a passing interest in amphibian nutrition, I've been digging into all aspects of it for more than 15 years. 

It depends.. depending on the species. There are various things that can be required ranging from site inspections for containment to inventory tracking. Once you have the permit, it doesn't mean you are permitted to ship them to everyone... that will depend on an analysis by APHIS (I can't remember off hand if that is an additional cost) but basically there are very few exempt species. In most cases, anyone getting them from you, would also be required to have a permit. In addition, as with termites, the buyer would also be required to have state permits as some states have additional requirements. 

Ed


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