# How Many People Have Produced F2 Pumilio?



## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I wanted to make this a poll. And if someone can amend the thread after I post this, cool.
This topic has been a thorn in my side for quite some time, as many know. But I think it needs to be gone over again. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me , but it seems that we, as a nation, imported thousands and thousands of " farm raised" pums within the last few years. I find it very easy to find an add for FR pums , quite cheap at times. But I find it almost impossible to find adds for F2s. An occasional F1 , here and there, but those numbers pale in comparison to the vast, tons, almost limitless numbers of best guesses and such that still , to this day, keep on truckin in.
With the responsibility of owning these frogs also comes the responsibility of breeding these frogs. I know some will say that they don't want to breed and are happy with the two frogs they have. That may be fine for animals we have little doubt will be around in abundant number for decades to come. But this is not the case for many , many of the darts we are now importing. My questions is this. What responsibility do we have as breeders, importers, or those at any other level of the "hobby",to get these frogs into hands that are capable of raising froglets to viable breeding frogs? It disgusts me to think that thousands of these pums are being snatched up "AT THE INCREDIBLE SAVINGS OF $50. HURRY, HURRY, HURRY ON DOWN!!" by people with $50 in their pocket, no experience, and no knowledge other that the fact that they are in-deed very pretty froggies. These are not expendable resources. At least they should never be treated as such. But are every day.
So, lets take a poll, see how many people with actual experience are also having issues with raising pums to adulthood, and maybe get some insight into why these frogs are being sold to and bought by people who are unable to care for them. And keep in mind that these frogs are easy to breed. Very , very easy to breed. Have a male, got a female, eggs will almost alway follow. Tads and froglets not far behind that. How many people have produced F2s from their pums? It is feasible (done it) to do this within a time period of one year.

Rich


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm thinking anyone working with Tuss Line Loma Pumilio and selling them are selling F2s and anyone buying them and producing would be producing F3s. I believe this will be the case for me and as much as I'd like to not do it, It's a bit hard to find them. Lomas seem to breed well from all the accounts I've heard and the frogs I've gotten (aside from one which looked to have been out competed by other froglets for food) are in good shape.

-Nish

P.S. I've tried to get a hold of Tuss, myself and I can't seem to get through (though one email wasn't returned to me so I assume the email address was still valid).


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

nish07 said:


> I'm thinking anyone working with Tuss Line Loma Pumilio and selling them are selling F2s and anyone buying them and producing would be producing F3s. I believe this will be the case for me and as much as I'd like to not do it, It's a bit hard to find them. Lomas seem to breed well from all the accounts I've heard and the frogs I've gotten (aside from one which looked to have been out competed by other froglets for food) are in good shape.
> 
> -Nish
> 
> P.S. I've tried to get a hold of Tuss, myself and I can't seem to get through (though one email wasn't returned to me so I assume the email address was still valid).


I guess I should have been more specific. I am talking about true F2s. Ones that have been produced by people who obtained WC or "FR" pums produced F1s, and now have adult F2s from those original WCs or "FR". Not stuff like Patrick's F23 Bastis, my F17 Cayo de Aguas or the like. :wink: 
If Tuss' Lomas are WC it should be fairly easy , and wanted, to know exactly what generation your are.

Rich


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## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

Hey Rich I am confused. Wouldn't most of your darkland froglets that you sell be f1s or at least f2s so anyone breeding any stock of darklands they got from you would naturally be f3s or f4s. Maybe I am not getting something.

Or are you referring to people like you who have gotten wild caught stock and then gotten them to make f2's, excluding stock from the different breeders?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

crb_22601 said:


> Hey Rich I am confused. Wouldn't most of your darkland froglets that you sell be f1s or at least f2s so anyone breeding any stock of darklands they got from you would naturally be f3s or f4s. Maybe I am not getting something.
> 
> Or are you referring to people like you who have gotten wild caught stock and then gotten them to make f2's, excluding stock from the different breeders?


What I am talking about is the people who have some of the thousands upon thousands of WC or "FR" stock, this makes their (WC or "FR") offspring F1s, letting us know if they were able to produce F2s. This being offspring of offspring of WC or "FR" pumilio stock.
This question being raised due to the lack of F2 pums being advertized as opposed to the thousands of WC/"FR" being advertized. Thousands in, next to nothing out...

Rich


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

I keep back all F1 offspring from my WC/FR pumilio bastimentos to bribri I have F2 shepard island F2 cayo de aqua F2 nancy and a few others.. I like to keep back first generations up to a point I have at least 2 pairs of F1 to produce the next generations.. this slows my collection down but I'm just not into the 1 pair of this 1 pair of that gig. 

Rich What questions do you want in the poll mate?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

MJ said:


> I keep back all F1 offspring from my WC/FR pumilio bastimentos to bribri I have F2 shepard island F2 cayo de aqua F2 nancy and a few others.. I like to keep back first generations up to a point I have at least 2 pairs of F1 to produce the next generations.. this slows my collection down but I'm just not into the 1 pair of this 1 pair of that gig.
> 
> Rich What questions do you want in the poll mate?


That's a great point. I think many people produce a few F1s, sell those and then have a death and that is the end of that line. That coupled with the problems getting froglets to breeding age make for pums being easy to breed , but harder to get adults out of.

How about;

a. I have WC/FR pumilio and have yet to produce a breeding adult from them.
b. I have WC/FR pumilio and have produced at least two (sustaining the adults numbers when dead) breeding adults.
c. I have WC/FR pumilio and have raised at least two breeding F2s from the original stock.
d. I have so freekin many F2 pums bouncin' around I lost count :shock: .


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## nish07 (Mar 16, 2008)

Of the Pums I have, three pairs are FR.

One escudo came as an F1 from Oz.

Two Lomas came from Oz which were Tuss line and therefor Oz's are F1s from Tuss'. However, if Tuss got those frogs as CB from Europe (who knows), then the ones I have could be anything. Assuming they were FR/WC imported, then Oz would have the F1s and I would have F2s.

I have a bunch of sick WC Banded leucs and a couple F1s from AZDR. I also have a group of 5 F1 (I believe) superblues from SNDF (their own line).

-Nish


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I guess for the sake of understanding #s in vs. #s out, (thousands grabbed off the ground coming in, vs. very,very few being sold from production ) and the fact that even CB are hard to breed and get third generation offspring, if you have Fwhatevers ,and have produced offspring from offspring, (have Fwhatever, produced Fwhatever+2) then in essence you are almost in the same boat as someone who has WC and has produced F2s. if this makes thing easier.

Rich


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## pigface (Apr 28, 2006)

No f2's yet , lots of f1's . 
But right now I'm trying to put together a f1-f1 pair of Escudo's to get another breeding pair going , and trying to pair a f1 with one of the extra W.C. male Escudo's . So we will see how that goes . And I also have a W.C. Cayo de Agua paired with one of my f1's , but nothing happening yet .

My f1-2 ?? "Tuss" Loma Partidas have transported and I'm hopeing to see froglets any day now . 
All my other pumilio are W.C.- F.R.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

I edited the poll for clarity. The edit seems to have wiped any responses. So you may need to re-respond to the poll.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Clayton,
The "I don't have "/NA may as well be out. NA.
And the polls should all read _produced adult breeders_, not froglets and such.
This is important because it seems many have produced froglets and older, but how many breeders are being produced? If we have 20,000 pums coming in, what number is acceptable as being consistently produced before we say there is definitely something wrong , and why are we contributing to this?

Rich


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> Clayton,
> The "I don't have "/NA may as well be out. NA.
> And the polls should all read _produced adult breeders_, not froglets and such.
> This is important because it seems many have produced froglets and older, but how many breeders are being produced? If we have 20,000 pums coming in, what number is acceptable as being consistently produced before we say there is definitely something wrong , and why are we contributing to this?
> ...


 The "Don't have any" option is there because it fits. The way the forum is set up, you can't view the results of a poll without submitting a response, therefore a null response is necessary.

As to breeding pairs vs. adults, producing adult age pumilio has often proven to be the most difficult portion of raising these frogs. Many people have raised F(x) pumilio to adults but passed them on to others (sell, trade, whatever), which is at least some level of accomplishment, breeding the next generation is encompassed by the _next_ poll option. And, most importantly, I can't change poll options without wiping the responses again. The primary purpose (I hope) of the poll is to stimulate discussion, since you definitively aren't going to get statistically meaningful responses out of a DB forum poll.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I just want to make it clear that I am not looking for people who have produced F1s, F2s, or F3s. Please only check the box if you have produced F1,2,3, whatever, that have made it to breeding. These can be in the care of someone else, but they need to be confirmed breeders. Most people will know if this is the case. We can produce all the froglets in the world and it means absolutely nothing unless those froglets turn into adults that breed. 
Here's another take on it. What exactly do we think have become of the thousands of pums brought in? Anybody? I see tons of "my new pum" threads. How successful do we think people , in general, are at sustaining the population that has been imported?
Over 200 views. I know that a lot more than ten people (which includes myself) work with WC/FR pums. It's an anonymous poll , so please, at least check a box.

Rich


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

Rich, good ?? and post. I would like to chime on a few things here. 
One of the saddest things with all the Pumilios coming in is the lack of care by the new owners or people who know little about the specific care for them. We have heard horror stories from both pet shops and private people who have asked for assistance with their care. Just think of all the private shops and people in the country who bought these guys only to watch them die weeks later...it's jut plain SAD!

This is what my company is doing to help this Pumilio matter. 

We have devoted all our resources and time into conservation breeding projects for all the Pumilios we have in our facility. We work with breeding groups that range from 5-10 for just one species. For example, let's take the Almirante...we breed 3 types of this Pumilio...PDP-JA-07, PDP-LR-07 and the famous Man creeks. We have been trying to find other people working with these site data frogs but keep running into a big blank.
What happened to all of them and the people working with them??? Same goes for all the other Pumilios. With all that have come in over all the years you would think quite a few breeders and private people would have them, at least some F1's. This is why we are doing every thing we can in our facility to secure some of these populations.

Just like the Almirante, we have one of the largest breeding groups of site data PA-08-LA-LO-89821 Guarumo as well...(15) breeders and have produced F1 from them. We have produced breeders from all our F1's and 2's and found sometimes they even do better in large breeding groups as well, while others do better only in pairs. 

We can't focus on every species of Pumilio but we sure can try with what we have. I see a lot of people on this forum trying to do this or that to make their Pumilio breed. Sometimes trying too hard is a downfall in these projects. Take a step back and enjoy what you have and your reward will be surprising in the end. Pumilio breed easier than most people think. 

Thanks,
Kevin


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Exoticdarts said:


> Rich, good ?? and post. I would like to chime on a few things here.
> One of the saddest things with all the Pumilios coming in is the lack of care by the new owners or people who know little about the specific care for them. We have heard horror stories from both pet shops and private people who have asked for assistance with their care. Just think of all the private shops and people in the country who bought these guys only to watch them die weeks later...it's jut plain SAD!
> 
> This is what my company is doing to help this Pumilio matter.
> ...


Right, so having more than just one male and one female, which goes back to the holding back thing also, is very important. Unless I have very close friends who can get me a replacement frog from my lines I don't feel comfortable at all unless I have multiple males and females.
I was unaware that "Guarumo" sites had been specified/comfirmed. Were these frogs from Marcus? Because most of the "Guarumo" morphs I have seen have been "best guesses" by color patterns.
And yes, easy to breed, harder to raise froglets to breeding age.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Kevin, 
Man creek and Almirante are two different locals, FYI. :wink: 

Rich


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

Exoticdarts said:


> let's take the Almirante...we breed 3 types of this Pumilio...PDP-JA-07, PDP-LR-07 and the famous Man creeks. We have been trying to find other people working with these site data frogs but keep running into a big blank
> 
> Thanks,
> Kevin


pdp -ja-07 are around in bc canada , dont quote me on it but i belive they were wc from understory, i curently have f1 from a freinds breedings he should have f2 shortly hes had great luck with his group so far they are beautiful lil frogs. blank no more 
craig


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

Rich, The Guarumo we all see coming in are just a best guess name frog from a zone close to the town of Guarumo, so they think. One thing to remember is the true Guarumo have been in the European trade for quite some time and are not new to the hobby. In the US, yes, and quite a few people from the US have good connections, including our business. Ours come from a collector outside of the US who has been collecting for researchers both in and out of other countries. Our Guarumo have GPS collection data and we don't need to give any more than that. These are in our facility for research and study. 

There are more people than just one out there, you just have to know the right persons. We work with some of the largest development companies in the world and have good resources.
We have been importing saltwater fish for over 19 years and have quite a few good friends. We were one of the first people to import and breed Australian black & white clowns back in the late 80's, so I know where my frogs come from and plan to keep it that way. We are not a new kid on the block.

As for the Almirante and Man creeks, YES, you are right. Guess I should have stated that one a little better, considering this is the one that people confuse the names the most. But I can totally understand, since quite a bit of our offspring look just like the imports coming in now days...except the PDP-JA-07's. They are far different than all the rest.

Rich, this is your post and I don't want to muck it up with all my words, I just think more people should speak up.

Please PM or Email for off topic replies.

Thanks,
Kevin


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Exoticdarts said:


> Rich, The Guarumo we all see coming in are just a best guess name frog from a zone close to the town of Guarumo, so they think. One thing to remember is the true Guarumo have been in the European trade for quite some time and are not new to the hobby. In the US, yes, and quite a few people from the US have good connections, including our business. Ours come from a collector outside of the US who has been collecting for researchers both in and out of other countries. Our Guarumo have GPS collection data and we don't need to give any more than that. These are in our facility for research and study.
> 
> There are more people than just one out there, you just have to know the right persons. We work with some of the largest development companies in the world and have good resources.
> We have been importing saltwater fish for over 19 years and have quite a few good friends. We were one of the first people to import and breed Australian black & white clowns back in the late 80's, so I know where my frogs come from and plan to keep it that way. We are not a new kid on the block.
> ...


All very good info. I am very glad to hear of more people taking a more serious approach to the pums. And belive me, I know there are Guarumo and quite a few other true morphs in EU that we don't have many/any of here. I just wondered about the local info , as most here only have access to the "best guesses" . 

Rich


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

Craig, This is really good news and I do believe Understory did bring them in as well, would you be able to check from you friend?

Thank you for the info and please email if you find out.

Thanks,
Kevin


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

"So, lets take a poll, see how many people with actual experience are also having issues with raising pums to adulthood, and maybe get some insight into why these frogs are being sold to and bought by people who are unable to care for them."

I don't see how this poll helps gain insight into why these frogs are being bought and sold. The market is the market. Insight into their captive care requirements and education is what's required to ensure success. 

"And keep in mind that these frogs are easy to breed. Very , very easy to breed. Have a male, got a female, eggs will almost alway follow. Tads and froglets not far behind that. How many people have produced F2s from their pums? It is feasible (done it) to do this within a time period of one year."

If everything is so easy, then the only thing that's standing in the way of success is communcation and education.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

I agree with the education and communication part though I have had the opinion that people should need a license to keep animals of any kind in general so that it can be pulled in the instance of abuse or neglect.

This was a very good thread that someone started previously:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26513&highlight=success+rate

There are a few things I see missing and I notice that everyone talks about how the froglets are cared for after morphing. I think it is equally as important to talk about tadpole care. I understand that with pumilios the parents care for them however there is still an amount of care that is given. How much misting is done? With what type of water? How much are you suplimenting the parents? Women when they are pregnant need more calcium than when they are not. Could this be the case for pumilio females in order to maintain enough for themselves and give calcium rich feeder eggs? Or is there another supplimental way people are getting calcium to the tadpoles?

Mostly tadpole care is missing but that is a very good thread. I haven't read through the whole thing yet but I'm about to and start taking notes on possible do's and don'ts.


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Yeah, that's a top notch thread and a perfect example of an experienced breeder sharing and working toward benefiting the community and frogs as a whole.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

pl259 said:


> "So, lets take a poll, see how many people with actual experience are also having issues with raising pums to adulthood, and maybe get some insight into why these frogs are being sold to and bought by people who are unable to care for them."
> 
> I don't see how this poll helps gain insight into why these frogs are being bought and sold. The market is the market. Insight into their captive care requirements and education is what's required to ensure success.
> 
> ...


Insight is not so much what I am looking for. More of a point being made that thousands of frogs each year are being killed. 
If we all dig a bit we will find here , and on a few other forums, much information on exactly what many of us do to ensure healthy frogs. Much information. So the communication and education is not an issue. The info is out there for everone to read.

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

dwdragon said:


> I agree with the education and communication part though I have had the opinion that people should need a license to keep animals of any kind in general so that it can be pulled in the instance of abuse or neglect.
> 
> This was a very good thread that someone started previously:
> 
> ...


I think one of the reasons "tad care" was not emphasized at all in the sited thread (a good thread, with good info. Lots of breeders put work into it) is the fact that pumilio really are easy, easy frogs to breed. If you have a male and a female you will more than likely find eggs, followed by tads, and in about three months or so a froglet or three. But what we do not see are those froglets making it to adulthood and therefore replenishing the captive populations. 


Rich


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

Quote"If we all dig a bit we will find here , and on a few other forums, much information on exactly what many of us do to ensure healthy frogs...The info is out there for everone to read."

Quote"But what we do not see are those (pum) froglets making it to adulthood (,breeding) and therefore replenishing the captive populations."

Rich, I'm a little surprised and confused by these comments. The way you're stating this suggests that you're implying that there is just so much great info out there on raising pum froglets, that is should be easy. And that people who can't raise F1+ pum breeders don't know enough to go out and read about it. 

I'm not trying to be rude, but rather point out that collectively these comments appear a bit harsh. I personally don't keep many pums because I don't feel the knowledge base on their long term care is firmly established or communicated. I must be missing something. I would love to hear more details and/or read about successful systems for their care.

If you don't feel the lack of sustainablility is a communication or education problem, then what do you think it is?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

pl259 said:


> Quote"If we all dig a bit we will find here , and on a few other forums, much information on exactly what many of us do to ensure healthy frogs...The info is out there for everone to read."
> 
> Quote"But what we do not see are those (pum) froglets making it to adulthood (,breeding) and therefore replenishing the captive populations."
> 
> ...


What I am saying Eric, not implying, is that there is tons and tons of good info out there, but/so I can only guess at the fact that these pums are being sold to people who do not utilize the great info out there. The thread cited (great thread , by your words) is chocked full of info from great breeders. Why is it that they have success and others do not? How many threads have been written on pum care here alone? Ever read in-depth info on Frognet? The issue seems to be that many want a pretty little froggy, cheap, cheap cheap, now, now , now. If you look at the people who are having success it is not always the frogger who has been in the hobby for ten years, but the frogger who does about ten years worth of reading and studying them. Quality over quantity. Pumilio, and plenty of other darts for that matter, are being sold to, given as gifts, "rescued" by ,and the like to people who just are not ready for them. By the thousands.
I simply feel that there has been tons written and tons not utilized. Ask any questions you would like from me about pums, their care and such and I will be glad to share. I don't hold back too much, too often. Exactly what information has not been expressed that you were looking for. Pums are great, addictive frogs and I know you have experience with other darts that are just as "tricky". 
You are not being rude. If my statements seem "a bit harsh" it is only due to the fact that it truly disgusts me knowing the huge numbers of these frogs that are being killed. I also have to guess that the majority of these killings can be attributed to owners who do not frequent frog forums. 

Rich


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

I personally am disappointed to see very little voting on this subject, considering this is one of the largest read frog forums out there.

Seems everyone is quick to jump on buying them so there should be quite a large number of people here working with them. 

If you have Pumilios, PLEASE! stand up and vote on this matter. I know there has to be more than what the voting poll stands at.

Just like Rich stated earlier, there is info everywhere on care and breeding. You just have to do a little looking around. Or ask! That's what we're all here for.

Kevin


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## pl259 (Feb 27, 2006)

As of the time of this reply there have been 68 respondents to the poll. I suspect the SW change over has limited the response to a significant degree. Even so, 68 is not that bad IMO, and probably enough to a least start to consider the results. FWIW I did reply to the poll.

I certainly agree with and share the initial concerns regarding the number of imports vs. the apparent lack of sustainability of the captive bred populations. But I don't think the poll as written, really goes very far toward gathering info to help the situation. This may also be a reason why more people have not responded. 

Without knowing some key details about the keepers who responded and their collections, it's hard to draw any significant conclusions from the numbers gathered by this poll. Simple things like number of pairs kept, age of pairs, experience, ect. any and all of which, would need to be known to make the conclusions relevent or at the very least, comparative. 

I'd also like to state that I happen to be one of those keepers who does not believe that actively breeding these frogs is a requisite for owning them. The intent of my statement here is not to divert or hijack. I would be happy to share my views on this in another thread or via PM.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

The mass collection of any animal, reptiles and amphibians included, for the mass distribution to uninformed individuals who will create suffering for the animal and likely lead to an untimely death is in itself disturbing. Not just with pumilio.

Now, one thing I saw mentioned was price. I see everything about not breeding enough of these frogs and nothing about breeders possibly reducing their prices. I guess the best question there is if it really costs you more than $50 to raise a pumilio froglet. I understand the enclosure cost, food cost, energy cost, etc. But when raising multitudes of PDF's is the cost that substantial? If not then there is more than a 200% markup on CB froglets.

If someone wants to bring up that the price increase keeps the buyers to "seriously interested people" I'm sure I can find some very good examples of people with too much money and too little brains. If it is supply and demand then that is just that and is a retail decision based on the income desired.

I brought up how people care for their tads because if there is something missing during tad development and the froglets "seem to morph normally" but there is really something serious going on internally during the morphing they may be able to survive for a short time but not until adulthood. Point in fact I bought a perfectly healthy looking active cockatiel for my dad. This bird lived for months, was active, healthy, and appeared happy. Then just one day he found it in the bottom of the cage dead. The bird was born with an enlarged heart. No outwards signs and even grew to adulthood but shortly there after for no apparent reason died. Sounds pretty familiar. No a bird is not a frog and I could be totally off. The only way to really find out would be to disect every lost froglet and compare them to the disection of a healthy animal which would bring up the question of killing 1 perfectly healthy adult frog so you could be assured there was nothing wrong with it since you don't know if they are healthy until they are adults.

With Pumiolios it is true the parents do most of the care but how are the parents being cared for? Are there UV lights? do you increase calcium and other nutrient intake for the female while she is eggfeeding? Do you add any nutrients to your misting water? I noticed in the other thread 1 person said they mist with calcium water.

Ok think I've made this long enough and all this maybe should go into another thread but in a way I feel it is related as the question seems to be here how many people can breed successfully enough to raise the supply to the demand and lower the importations. One more note on that if more people got their pumilios from responsible breeders they would get care information from that breeder before they ever got the frog. We used to do this at the pet store and in many instances my boss would almost insist the person buy the book stating if they didn't have the money for the book on care information then they didn't have the money for the animal.

If I'm totally off please let me know.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

dwdragon said:


> The mass collection of any animal, reptiles and amphibians included, for the mass distribution to uninformed individuals who will create suffering for the animal and likely lead to an untimely death is in itself disturbing. Not just with pumilio.


Absolutely. Where pumilio come in , is that they seem to be the species we are bringing in the most of that are not sustaining themselves and therefore replenishing the need to buy more , not do more with what we have.



dwdragon said:


> Now, one thing I saw mentioned was price. I see everything about not breeding enough of these frogs and nothing about breeders possibly reducing their prices. I guess the best question there is if it really costs you more than $50 to raise a pumilio froglet. I understand the enclosure cost, food cost, energy cost, etc. But when raising multitudes of PDF's is the cost that substantial? If not then there is more than a 200% markup on CB froglets.


Simply ask how many frogs the average person raises to adulthood and you will find that not too many breeders are "raising multitudes of PDFs". Yes, it can cost way more than $50 to raise a quality frog. Dropping prices makes for more impulse buys. And belive me, the prices always drop . Check out old " pumilio for sale" adds and you will see exactly what I mean.



dwdragon285365 said:


> If someone wants to bring up that the price increase keeps the buyers to "seriously interested people" I'm sure I can find some very good examples of people with too much money and too little brains. If it is supply and demand then that is just that and is a retail decision based on the income desired.


Are you telling me you don't think that someone looking into buying a $1000 frog (they exist) is not going to try every single thing humanly possible to take the very best care of that $1000 frog? As opposed to the guy who can pick up all the $30 pumilio he wants, whenever he wants? I am guessing the $1000 frog gets a better home...overall.



dwdragon285365 said:


> I brought up how people care for their tads because if there is something missing during tad development and the froglets "seem to morph normally" but there is really something serious going on internally during the morphing they may be able to survive for a short time but not until adulthood. Point in fact I bought a perfectly healthy looking active cockatiel for my dad. This bird lived for months, was active, healthy, and appeared happy. Then just one day he found it in the bottom of the cage dead. The bird was born with an enlarged heart. No outwards signs and even grew to adulthood but shortly there after for no apparent reason died. Sounds pretty familiar. No a bird is not a frog and I could be totally off. The only way to really find out would be to disect every lost froglet and compare them to the disection of a healthy animal which would bring up the question of killing 1 perfectly healthy adult frog so you could be assured there was nothing wrong with it since you don't know if they are healthy until they are adults.
> 
> With Pumiolios it is true the parents do most of the care but how are the parents being cared for? Are there UV lights? do you increase calcium and other nutrient intake for the female while she is eggfeeding? Do you add any nutrients to your misting water? I noticed in the other thread 1 person said they mist with calcium water.


The only thing I can offer as to facts about water, supplementation, UV and the like is that both Aaron H. and I use no calcium water or drops for froglets/juvis, nor do we fortify our substrate with it. We use no UV. No added supps in the misting water. No added supps for mothers while feeding tads. We can pretty much go down the line with "no's" on extras. I have seen perfectly wonderful froglets morph out of what I thought to be too small an amount of too nasty water conditions to possibly create a healthy froglet, more than once. I don't think the water quality is a big issue with frogs dieing four months down the line. But that is only a guess. I'm not sure if any scientific studies have been done on "bad" obligate eggfeeder water.
The reason I bring up the fact we don't use or experiment with a whole lot of additional supplements and such is that between Aaron and myself , and quite a few others not using a whole lot of "extras" ,we have produced quite a few healthy frogs. And the percentages of surviving frogs is relatively high. Leading me to suspect husbandry after the morph to be more of the issue. Only a guess though.



dwdragon285365 said:


> Ok think I've made this long enough and all this maybe should go into another thread but in a way I feel it is related as the question seems to be here how many people can breed successfully enough to raise the supply to the demand and lower the importations. One more note on that if more people got their pumilios from responsible breeders they would get care information from that breeder before they ever got the frog. We used to do this at the pet store and in many instances my boss would almost insist the person buy the book stating if they didn't have the money for the book on care information then they didn't have the money for the animal.
> 
> If I'm totally off please let me know.


I like your boss's take on it. 
But did you ever have customers say that he should lower the price of the book because they had more brains than money?

Rich


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

Rich,

I've seen people buy online gaming accounts for over $2,000 on a game they've never played, so yeah there are people with more money than brains. That's not an exageration that was an actual ebay sale before they started banning game account sales.

I've also seen people buy dogs for hundreds of dollars and then neglect them. So I don't think frogs differ here. There are some people out there with more money than is good for them or anyone else and some have seriously sadistic minds. I'm sure a few "rich kids" (more than a few probably) have bought PDF's in the hopes of getting them toxic which is possible with WC and deciding it would be a cool and unique high to lick them. Consider the ass on the video from You Tube.

If indeed it costs that much to raise them then by all means charge that much. I wasn't talking about strictly pumilio tho and not just one froglet but for breeders who raise several PDF species (some produce more than others). The cost of food and shelter would be less per froglet depending on how many you have as there would be less waste.

My questions on the tad raising were not only to find out if the supplimenting would help but also if we could be overcompensating and hurting them with supplimental poisoning, causing calcium or mineral buildups on their internal organs and such.

As for clean water I don't think they get a whole lot of pristine clear water out in the wild. I certainly wouldn't go for the worst nasty water in the world but something in between like what would clean out the broms in the wild. That was kind of a question there. Since frogs absorb things through their skin it's actually possible they are reabsorbing nutrients from their own waste as a tadpole. There are other animals that digest their own waste as young but I can't remember what they are off hand at this time. I do know several lizards will eat their own shed to reabsorb nutrients.

The cost of the books at the pet store wasn't much of an issue it usually weeded out the people who could afford to feed their animal considering the books were at most $10. If you can't afford $10 for a book when you are buying a $20 animal then there are some serious doubts as for the long term care you can provide. I wasn't talking about some of the larger books like I've seen on darts that are $50. In all fairness I plan to buy 1 -2 of those books very soon here and if I can find one on pumilio only I will do that as well. But that is me I'd buy $150 in books even if the frog were only $15 because for me it's the value of life not the paper money.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

well heck i geuss its my turn to pee on a leg lol

impluse buys and frogs {all herps really} doomed to a slow painfull death are what keep most importers and wholesaler and even most small sellers in biz.if even 20% of imports is turned in to breeding stock it lowers prices and creates less demand for wc {not counting those in search of new bloodlines} and means that paticular import is no longer profitable, once the profit is gone very few will work on imports at all.now if 99% of imports dies with only the choice few being bred , cb prices remain high and wc prices can be much lower {pums is a good example} thus making it still profitable to bring in thousands more over and over again.

how to break the cycle? well im my opinion {yup like assh#$%} if the frogs alwas went to the best possible keepers first thus giving cb a better shot at slowing or even ending the import wc wave.that might work.the only problem is wholesalers and importers go out of biz with out a product they can make a profit on.
if screening was done it would be the best for the frogs but not for the pet trade.
personally i find it kind of sicking just how many wc are or have been for sale last few years and how few cb are for sale, the sale adds tell a real story if u read them.
craig 
ps for the record i have not bought best geuss pums , i have chosen understory or local breeders producing f1s from wc stock with local data.the pums wc even make it on vancouvers pet trade whole sale lists listed simply as strawberry dart frogs


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## Exoticdarts (Sep 14, 2006)

dwdragon said:


> My questions on the tad raising were not only to find out if the supplimenting would help but also if we could be overcompensating and hurting them with supplimental poisoning, causing calcium or mineral buildups on their internal organs and such.


Yes, you are on the right track with this. Too many people try to intervene with parental care by supplementing this or that which leads to overcompensating and hurting them in the long run. By keeping ones hands out of the cage, the better for the survival rate of the little ones.




dwdragon said:


> As for clean water I don't think they get a whole lot of pristine clear water out in the wild.


Actually they receive quite a bit of rain water in the wild and it does contribute to a bit cleaner environment for them. By all means that doesn't mean go and flush out all the brom sites and containers, but flushing out a ff infested one does help keep the mortality rate down to a point. We use this method in all our breeding tanks. Most people with misting systems will have no problem with this.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

dwdragon said:


> Rich,
> 
> I've seen people buy online gaming accounts for over $2,000 on a game they've never played, so yeah there are people with more money than brains. That's not an exageration that was an actual ebay sale before they started banning game account sales.
> 
> ...


OK, let's step back from the occasional idiot who has more $ than smarts. This is not the average dart frogger. And we need to look at averages and not exceptions to the rule. Same with the dog thing. Most pure bred dogs do cost hundreds. The ones selling for thousands are , on average, very well cared for. My brother, a vet who deals with more dogs and cats than Darts, can attest to this average. My simple point is that on average, if you are selling a dart for $300 vs. $3 I have to guess that the average care for the $300 frog will be better. 
It will always cost more for a breeder to raise a CB pumilio than it will for a native to grab it off the ground and sell it for $1 to an exporter. Always. CB , site local known, frogs in kind should be more expensive than their counterparts. Always.
I think you are on the right track with some possibly "over doing it" thing. I tend to sit back and enjoy what these cool frogs do on their own. I like letting other frogs also tend to their young. Some don't realize, but each species of darts we work with here can and will tank raise offspring. I have had pretty much all my species do it and I always love finding a new little froglet hopping around next to the parents. But again, I don't think the main reasons for the huge deaths are over trying, probably quite the opposite...
The weeding out/book factor works much the same way when you tell someone that your pumilio are a bit more expensive than $30. There are those who will only spend a tiny, tiny amount of time reading and researching when the possible financial loss is also tiny , tiny.
As far as purchasing books on darts and more specifically pums, there really are not a whole lot of great books out there. I own several and really like the pictures. I really like those pics...I use the forums and talk directly to other froggers to gain most of my non-hands-on knowledge. If you find froggers who post that you trust it can be very helpful.
The dart "business" is a funny thing with many more aspects than the simple supply and demand issue. I do know of a number of respectable breeders who simply will not sell to people not ready for darts. 

Rich


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

somecanadianguy said:


> well heck i geuss its my turn to pee on a leg lol
> 
> impluse buys and frogs {all herps really} doomed to a slow painfull death are what keep most importers and wholesaler and even most small sellers in biz.if even 20% of imports is turned in to breeding stock it lowers prices and creates less demand for wc {not counting those in search of new bloodlines} and means that paticular import is no longer profitable, once the profit is gone very few will work on imports at all.now if 99% of imports dies with only the choice few being bred , cb prices remain high and wc prices can be much lower {pums is a good example} thus making it still profitable to bring in thousands more over and over again.
> 
> ...


The business end is simple. If the mass sellers want to keep selling the same frogs they need to get them into hands that can not keep them alive, much less breed them, and their offspring, and then their's. Yes, if I sell some "X" to someone who then has fortune breeding them, I am sort of cutting my own throat, as a business. But, if I happen to have twenty or thirty different species from a bunch of different nations, some of which are now closed for export, and I have good fortune (not luck, big difference) ,I have a much better chance of not getting stuck with a collection who's average price three years ago was $300 and is now averaging SUBSTANTIALLY less.
But , building such a collection takes hard work, time, money, good resources, and is not possible by simply jumping on the "mass import" band wagon. This hobby is much more than a business to many .

Rich


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

dwdragon said:


> Rich,
> 
> If indeed it costs that much to raise them then by all means charge that much. I wasn't talking about strictly pumilio tho and not just one froglet but for breeders who raise several PDF species (some produce more than others). The cost of food and shelter would be less per froglet depending on how many you have as there would be less waste.


We breed over 20 different species of dart frog, including pumilio, and even with producing hundreds of eggs each month the cost to produce and raise a single froglet to saleable age is much higher then you might think. For my operation it typically runs about $25-$30 to raise one froglet to ~ 3 month of age. There are lots of hidden costs that go into raising frogs. To raise a frog to adulthood can easily cost $100 or more.

Just my personal experience on the matter.


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## dwdragon (Aug 14, 2008)

JL-Exotics said:


> We breed over 20 different species of dart frog, including pumilio, and even with producing hundreds of eggs each month the cost to produce and raise a single froglet to saleable age is much higher then you might think. For my operation it typically runs about $25-$30 to raise one froglet to ~ 3 month of age. There are lots of hidden costs that go into raising frogs. To raise a frog to adulthood can easily cost $100 or more.
> 
> Just my personal experience on the matter.


That is fine if it costs that much to raise froglets. It just doesn't make any sense then that for instance an Imitator or Vent would cost more to raise than an Auratus. Not speaking of initial costs of the parents of course.

That was actually my point. The prices of frogs seems to be more of a supply and demand effect just the same as everything else. 

As for costing less because you have more frogs. Here was the thought logic behind that. Usually if you order bulk supplies of anything it costs less than if you order just 1 of something. On top of that things like your supplements are less likely to go bad and 1 jar of supplement might spread between 150 froglets / frogs rather than 20 for a smaller hobbist who can't use most of it before it should be thrown out. The same for things like Tadpole Bites and other dry foods as well.

This also goes with the ability to buy in bulk. Where you may be able to buy a 20 - 50lb bag of an ingredient to use in FF cultures and use it all up in effect having an initial savings cost for buying in bulk and then having another savings cost for being able to use it all up rather than having to throw part of it out because it went bad.

The same applies for medications and other treatments. You are likely to use them up which means splitting the cost between more froglets produced than someone who uses 1/4 of a bottle of something and has to throw it out because it went bad before they needed it again.

I don't know if any of you figure in initial setup costs but that is another one that gets divided hugely on an annual basis because of producing more froglets. 

In short the larger your collection and more pairs of a single specimen type that you have the lower your costs per froglet should be. This is not taking into account mortality rates because this can be due to how the frogs are maintained or just plain bad luck.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

dwdragon said:


> That is fine if it costs that much to raise froglets. It just doesn't make any sense then that for instance an Imitator or Vent would cost more to raise than an Auratus. Not speaking of initial costs of the parents of course.
> 
> That was actually my point. The prices of frogs seems to be more of a supply and demand effect just the same as everything else.


No, you're absolutely correct. Cost is primarily driven by demand. 

And your theory that a larger operation would bring costs down per froglet is true to a degree. But even if you have 10 pairs of a single species, it would be doubtful that all 10 pairs are laying fertile eggs consistently. More often, you end up feeding 10 pairs and get production from 2, so your cost may off-set any bulk order savings and even be higher per froglet on the larger scale!


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## Fishman (Jan 16, 2007)

JL-Exotics said:


> No, you're absolutely correct. Cost is primarily driven by demand.
> 
> And your theory that a larger operation would bring costs down per froglet is true to a degree. But even if you have 10 pairs of a single species, it would be doubtful that all 10 pairs are laying fertile eggs consistently. More often, you end up feeding 10 pairs and get production from 2, so your cost may off-set any bulk order savings and even be higher per froglet on the larger scale!


However you would have to look at cost over a longer period. If you continually have 20-25% of your stock producing then costs are still going to be lower over time. As compared to a couple of pairs going on and off production and having to start and stop raising tads continually, yet still having to keep cultures going, feeding, and space to raise the eventual young. Efficiency in time, cultures and space would mean that more consistent production is going to equal lower costs.


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## rjmarchisi (Feb 16, 2004)

As in any market, the seller wants to get the most for their product and the buyer wants to pay the least for it, so no matter how much cheaper it is to produce in large quantities, prices should not vary by too much.

As anyone in this hobby will tell you, the money is in the supplies, not the actual breeding/offspring from frogs, and anyone who breeds frogs does it for the love of the hobby.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Unless of course they cut corners(no fecals or chytrid testing, only ff`s rather than diverse food sources, less feeding, less dusting, not changing tanks between clutches, not misting w/ distilled or r.o., cheap tad foods, etc.), therefore lowering the cost of producing them and selling them small further lowering the cost of production. But then again w/ the drop in price and size there is also a drop in quality. I guess you get what you pay for, generally.
Your right though, money is in supplies. No feeding, heating etc. and you double your money or more on an inanimate object. I guess that`s why I never sold supplies other than the basics when people couldn`t find them elsewhere.


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## jehitch (Jun 8, 2007)

rjmarchisi said:


> As in any market, the seller wants to get the most for their product and the buyer wants to pay the least for it, so no matter how much cheaper it is to produce in large quantities, prices should not vary by too much.
> 
> As anyone in this hobby will tell you, the money is in the supplies, not the actual breeding/offspring from frogs, and anyone who breeds frogs does it for the love of the hobby.


The seller also wants to sell his product. So, unless demand outpaces supply, or there is collusion on the part of breeders to fix prices, then as costs to produce go down, prices will follow as breeders work to move their stock more quickly than their competitors.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Fishman said:


> However you would have to look at cost over a longer period. If you continually have 20-25% of your stock producing then costs are still going to be lower over time. As compared to a couple of pairs going on and off production and having to start and stop raising tads continually, yet still having to keep cultures going, feeding, and space to raise the eventual young. Efficiency in time, cultures and space would mean that more consistent production is going to equal lower costs.


Many of the principals that you can apply to business don't translate so well to animals. The more efficient a factory becomes and the more product that can be shipped and sold per unit of time the lower the cost of production. I completely agree that consistent production should eventually produce lower costs over time. But, finding the consistency is the tricky part with animal breeding... It's not so easy to speed up the factory when you are manufacturing life! If you had a collection that was purely mature breeding stock that was predictable and consistent breeders you would have a much better chance of achieving that consistency. Of course, you would need to retain animals to replace aging breeders, and even the best of us are tempted to invest in new species that enter the hobby from time to time. Egg and tadpole mortality is another variable that can be hard to predict, not to mention the random accidents that can derail a breeding group (Eventually we all leave a tank lid open by accident or have a thriving brom grow tall enough to pop a corner of the lid or discover an egg-eater has been sabatoging the group etc.)

The market itself can be unpredictable and work against the bigger operation to bring efficiency down. A small breeder that has 1 or 2 pairs of frogs that are good consistent producers and their offspring can count on making 1 or 2 cultures per week to keep everyone fed and that can be very efficient. A larger operation that is offering fly cultures for sale in addition to feeding their collection can see serious losses if sales are slow when the product has a limited shelf life.

In the long run, the larger breeder has the "potential" to be more cost efficient for each animal produced. But the reality is that the hobbiest with only a few animals that are good producers probably has a better chance of consistently having a lower cost for each animal produced. 

Higher sales volume of the larger scale operation will hopefully offset the lower profit margin (make $1 on 10 sales vs. make $10 on 1 sale), but again it's not a lock that the sales will be there (for either of them!).

The bottom line is that it's pretty darn hard to break even, much less make a profit by breeding dart frogs. So you can be pretty darn sure that anybody that is consistently offering CB darts for sale is doing so because they love the frogs!!


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Another thing to think about is that frogs sold today were begun 6-8 months ago. When people realize they are producing too much they still have 6-9 months to halt production. So when a frog morph is not sought after much anymore there is still 6-9 months before they are not available anymore, a lot of times much longer because they just don`t sell. 
You also have the breeders who are living at home or in an apt w/ their frogs. They can produce frogs consistently cheaper because of a lot of reasons(heat,elec.,rent etc. not factored in) one because they sometimes just want to pay for their frogs food. No business can compete w/ that.
Eventually you`ll see them go the way of all other reptiles, strictly available from jobbers/retailers, etc.. No one sells strictly corn snakes anymore, or strictly geckos, (well they`re a little different). They(jobbers) are the ones who can control the price of what they pay for them and have people living at home breed them for them and therefore sell them at the lowest price. I`ve dealt w/ them(jobbers) at shows and the main pet shop here for years. They don`t have to test for chytrid or do fecals or set up new tanks each time they get new frogs and they will be what`s left in the end.
This is how capitalism works. You eventually get the lowest quality product for the cheapest price. I`ve seen good breeders not be able to keep their head above water and eventually get nosed out by the wheelers and dealers. I`ve gone thru it myself. I can`t give you $20ea for azureus anymore, I`ve got someone locally selling them to me at $15 or $12.50 ea. Sure they`re smaller but people buy more at a lower price. Mine are tested for chytrid, well people don`t really ask about that and if it`s a jobber or petshop it`s probably already gone thru anyway. Etc., Etc.
Unfortunately this is how I see the future of dart frogs in the US. Your already seeing it on ksnake. There is a new jobber opening every month that now carries dart frogs. Pumilio at $35ea and azureus and such now commonly $20-$30ea. Lamasi, imitators, variabilis etc. also being sold by the mega pet shops.



JL-Exotics said:


> Many of the principals that you can apply to business don't translate so well to animals. The more efficient a factory becomes and the more product that can be shipped and sold per unit of time the lower the cost of production. I completely agree that consistent production should eventually produce lower costs over time. But, finding the consistency is the tricky part with animal breeding... It's not so easy to speed up the factory when you are manufacturing life! If you had a collection that was purely mature breeding stock that was predictable and consistent breeders you would have a much better chance of achieving that consistency. Of course, you would need to retain animals to replace aging breeders, and even the best of us are tempted to invest in new species that enter the hobby from time to time. Egg and tadpole mortality is another variable that can be hard to predict, not to mention the random accidents that can derail a breeding group (Eventually we all leave a tank lid open by accident or have a thriving brom grow tall enough to pop a corner of the lid or discover an egg-eater has been sabatoging the group etc.)
> 
> The market itself can be unpredictable and work against the bigger operation to bring efficiency down. A small breeder that has 1 or 2 pairs of frogs that are good consistent producers and their offspring can count on making 1 or 2 cultures per week to keep everyone fed and that can be very efficient. A larger operation that is offering fly cultures for sale in addition to feeding their collection can see serious losses if sales are slow when the product has a limited shelf life.
> 
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I think with the recession we are going to see a dramatic drop in the number of companies that are importing and selling. There was a pet price bubble that went up along with the real estate bubble. (Not so much in frogs but in other herps there was a lot of speculation occuring (ball pythons for a big example)). We are going to see a drop in the number of those people as well as a realigning of prices (if a bubble bursts prices get realigned). 


Before the advent of cheap video games, bad ecomonic times usually meant an increase in sales at pet stores however since the advent of the cheap video games, pet sales are more in line with the rest of the economy. 


Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Ed said:


> I think with the recession we are going to see a dramatic drop in the number of companies that are importing and selling. There was a pet price bubble that went up along with the real estate bubble. (Not so much in frogs but in other herps there was a lot of speculation occuring (ball pythons for a big example)). We are going to see a drop in the number of those people as well as a realigning of prices (if a bubble bursts prices get realigned).
> 
> 
> Before the advent of cheap video games, bad ecomonic times usually meant an increase in sales at pet stores however since the advent of the cheap video games, pet sales are more in line with the rest of the economy.
> ...


I've seen evidence of this first hand Ed. Most of the mom & pop pet stores in my area are hurting and I know of at least a few that have already had to close their doors.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Yes, but you also see a progression in popularity, a rise in the amt. of people successfully breeding them, coupled w/ the prolificity of most species and you get a succession not unlike leopard geckos, cats and dogs. Pet shops catch on to making ff cultures(another staple feeder to make money from) and the draw such animals have for their stores and there goes a good backbone, selling flies locally, to keeping a big collection going. Shipping prices and shipping stresses favor local breeders and more local people get the same morphs breeding further undercutting the original breeders further inbreeding lines at a quicker pace since the pet shop only buys from the lowest competitor. 
I used to sell ff`s to the local petshops, I used to go to shows all over from chicago to st louis to S.C. to New Hampshire, then it was NE and then just white plains and now no more shows. I used to wholesale at the shows and nationally. The # of breeders has grown at a rate much higher than the # of people getting into the hobby and the # of jobbers, wholesalers, pet shops carrying frogs has increased and smaller, single missioned companies don`t get the business when the local mega pet shop(kingsnake advertisers carrying turtles, monitors, fish, frogs, geckos etc.) carries darts just imported or bred locally. People generally buy them by seeing them locally and buying the stuff there on impulse. You`ve seen the same w/ walmart carrying food and wegmans expanding some to international wegmans. Now that they know there is a demand for darts and they draw, they`ll put into play the same system they`ve done w/ everything else.
15 years ago azureus were $120-$130ea and I could get them from 4-5 + places and most were from different lines, now you can get them from $20-$40ea. , even before the economy really turned south. The only morphs that fluctuate are bottlenecked morphs that start at $100ea and drop to $20ea in record time because only a few people want them because they are rare and price doesn`t reflect color, sociability, ease of care(touchiness)etc.
Pumilio may rebound IF panama shuts down since they are hard to breed successfully, easy to care for and keep alive, therefore sought after and are some of the most colorful darts.
Leopard geckos though, I can get $7ea. wholesale. That is not worth anyone doing for a "living". 1.10 would make you about $140/month and feeding and care don`t make up for that. Because people breed them and sell them back to cover food costs they have bottomed out to the lowest price, which is cost of food.
I think about this stuff a lot as it`s what I need to figure out to decide what to do w/ the rest of my life. I`ll always keep frogs but to what extent has to do w/ what`s feasable. It`s not possible to keep a bunch of morphs, waiting for their price to rebound, and then starting when they do. You have 6 months to catch up before they become unpopular again. If you do and you miss their popularity, you then have 6 months of unwanted/unpopular frogs to take up space and energy trying to get rid of them.



Ed said:


> I think with the recession we are going to see a dramatic drop in the number of companies that are importing and selling. There was a pet price bubble that went up along with the real estate bubble. (Not so much in frogs but in other herps there was a lot of speculation occuring (ball pythons for a big example)). We are going to see a drop in the number of those people as well as a realigning of prices (if a bubble bursts prices get realigned).
> 
> 
> Before the advent of cheap video games, bad ecomonic times usually meant an increase in sales at pet stores however since the advent of the cheap video games, pet sales are more in line with the rest of the economy.
> ...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Aaron,

I'm talking about the thing as a whole... There is going to be a lot of people getting out of the buisiness as well as out of the hobby due to change in demand and price. This is going to significantly realign prices and demand (and I suspect not for the better). (for example look at the record number of dogs and cats ending up in shelters as people can no longer care or feed them.) 

Ed


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Whew! Did we get a little off topic here!!

Just to keep on point for a second, I'm happy to say I found at least 2 new *F3* pumilio froglets in the basti tank this week. Wahoo!

Aaron, I hear you loud and clear. This is a tough business market to try and make any profit from. Very tough. I think you made the argument perfectly that a business model must constantly evolve and change to keep pace with the market. What worked 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 1 year ago may not be successful today and it takes a lot of time, money, and energy (and luck) to figure out what the next direction should be and position yourself to see any benefit. We've experience many of the same things you describe.

All I can say it good luck and hang in there! 



frogfarm said:


> Yes, but you also see a progression in popularity, a rise in the amt. of people successfully breeding them, coupled w/ the prolificity of most species and you get a succession not unlike leopard geckos, cats and dogs. Pet shops catch on to making ff cultures(another staple feeder to make money from) and the draw such animals have for their stores and there goes a good backbone, selling flies locally, to keeping a big collection going. Shipping prices and shipping stresses favor local breeders and more local people get the same morphs breeding further undercutting the original breeders further inbreeding lines at a quicker pace since the pet shop only buys from the lowest competitor.
> I used to sell ff`s to the local petshops, I used to go to shows all over from chicago to st louis to S.C. to New Hampshire, then it was NE and then just white plains and now no more shows. I used to wholesale at the shows and nationally. The # of breeders has grown at a rate much higher than the # of people getting into the hobby and the # of jobbers, wholesalers, pet shops carrying frogs has increased and smaller, single missioned companies don`t get the business when the local mega pet shop(kingsnake advertisers carrying turtles, monitors, fish, frogs, geckos etc.) carries darts just imported or bred locally. People generally buy them by seeing them locally and buying the stuff there on impulse. You`ve seen the same w/ walmart carrying food and wegmans expanding some to international wegmans. Now that they know there is a demand for darts and they draw, they`ll put into play the same system they`ve done w/ everything else.
> 15 years ago azureus were $120-$130ea and I could get them from 4-5 + places and most were from different lines, now you can get them from $20-$40ea. , even before the economy really turned south. The only morphs that fluctuate are bottlenecked morphs that start at $100ea and drop to $20ea in record time because only a few people want them because they are rare and price doesn`t reflect color, sociability, ease of care(touchiness)etc.
> Pumilio may rebound IF panama shuts down since they are hard to breed successfully, easy to care for and keep alive, therefore sought after and are some of the most colorful darts.
> ...


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

This relates to how many will put their efforts towrds breeding pumilio. When prices drop, incentive for most to breed them is lo. Other frogs are easy to breed and will remain cheap because people can breed them. If Panama closes the price will go back up on all pumilio for said reasons. It gives people incentive to still work w/ them and not go for the next interesting morph.
I hope it didn`t sound like I was complaining or preachy, just meant to try and understand what is going on and where the hobby is going. After reading back it did sound different than what I intended(what i`ll do w/ the rest of my life thing.). Just trying to give a perspective from 15 years of doing this.
My collection is almost small enough for me to vacation again. I`ll probably keep it that way from here on. It`s no fun when your the only one who can take care of all your animals. I`ve already decided I won`t do this more than part time from now on. And I`m back to pretty much the same collection I started w/ over 12 years ago. Back when I could still travel.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Your running into the same problem that many businesses run into. It's hard to be a specialty store within a certain market and not also carry bread and butter items. Just because you are dealing with a frog doesn't mean that your business plan is any different from say a home theater store. Sure you can specialize in high end product in your case pumilio, but that even in high end frogs is still a specialty. The problem with doing this is that your limiting your customer base to those just looking for specialty frogs. What many businesses have come to realize is that if you broaden what you offer for example tincs, auratus and such and keep customer service high with the customers you deal with you can in the long run develop the specialty customers that your after. For the most part, your bread and butter customers are going to be the ones that are going to be looking for your pumilio when they are ready for them. It's not that hard to get that customer their first frogs and also their future frogs with just a little bit of customer service. Being helpful and willing to help new froggers into the hobby is in your best interest as a person looking to run a business selling frogs. Sure at times it seems that you help someone and then they go elsewhere and sure that does happen, but not always. It's also possible that you're helping a new frogger and you don't have the "beginner" frog that they are looking for and take your advice and go buy from a breeder that does have it. That's why it's so important to try and have the product that a customer is going to want at all levels of their time in the hobby and not focus on a small percentage of it alone and hope to make money.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

Yes, in theory you are correct. But I think you're missing the point just a tiny bit. The main difference is that your average home theater system is not required to have baby theater systems for you to have a product to sell in the first place. Nor do the baby theater systems need food and shelter until they grow up. And if they do grow up "broken" (i.e. SLS etc.) there is no factory to return them to for a replacement/refund. Nor do you have to worry about the average home theatre enthusiast starting to build home made systems in his garage and selling them to all the other home theatre stores at hugely discounted prices and the home made systems are usually just as good as the factory models!! 

Aaron has been doing this for a long long time and not too long ago he was doing it on a fairly grand scale with an amazing selection of dendros. His customer service has always been top notch and he has a customer base that few can compare with. When you operate on a large scale you are literally tied to the frogs. Vacations become impossible. It becomes a lifestyle more than a job and it demands everything from you to do it properly.

And No Aaron, it didn't sound like complaining (at least not any more then I did  ) but more like philosophizing out loud on the future of the hobby and the role of the breeder might have in that future. Coming from a guy that used to work his a$$ off (and I'm sure still does) trying to make a living at rearing frogs I took it as excellent insight from a guy thats "been there".

I don't want to sound like I disagree with you Tim, those business pricipals all certainly apply to every business. But there is a whole extra subset of obstacles that need to be overcome when you're dealing with live animals, especially when you try and breed them yourself. It's hard to imagine all the factors that come into play without having first hand experience. 

Also keep in mind that burn out is a huge factor in this business. You can't image the amount of work it takes just to prepare for a weekend show event. Generally you're spend all day and all night catching and packing frogs and then you spend all or part of a day driving somewhere and getting everything set up, then you spend the next 2 days standing on your feet answering the same questions over and over again usually without a spare second to grab a bite of food and on the 2nd day after standing for the last 8 hours you have to tear everything down and make the drive back home. As soon as you get home there is no time for a break because you have to unpack the frogs! By this time they haven't eaten in a good 4 days and that next meal is getting urgent for younger frogs. That 2 day show really requires 4-6 long days of work! Now imagine if the show is slow and you don't make any sales for all that work. We've done shows where we sold less then $300 over the entire weekend! Not even enough to cover the cost of the table fees. Weekends like that are enough to make you question your sanity, your religion, and your direction in life.

Very few can make a living breeding darts full time.







jubjub47 said:


> Your running into the same problem that many businesses run into. It's hard to be a specialty store within a certain market and not also carry bread and butter items. Just because you are dealing with a frog doesn't mean that your business plan is any different from say a home theater store. Sure you can specialize in high end product in your case pumilio, but that even in high end frogs is still a specialty. The problem with doing this is that your limiting your customer base to those just looking for specialty frogs. What many businesses have come to realize is that if you broaden what you offer for example tincs, auratus and such and keep customer service high with the customers you deal with you can in the long run develop the specialty customers that your after. For the most part, your bread and butter customers are going to be the ones that are going to be looking for your pumilio when they are ready for them. It's not that hard to get that customer their first frogs and also their future frogs with just a little bit of customer service. Being helpful and willing to help new froggers into the hobby is in your best interest as a person looking to run a business selling frogs. Sure at times it seems that you help someone and then they go elsewhere and sure that does happen, but not always. It's also possible that you're helping a new frogger and you don't have the "beginner" frog that they are looking for and take your advice and go buy from a breeder that does have it. That's why it's so important to try and have the product that a customer is going to want at all levels of their time in the hobby and not focus on a small percentage of it alone and hope to make money.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JL-Exotics said:


> Also keep in mind that burn out is a huge factor in this business. You can't image the amount of work it takes just to prepare for a weekend show event. Generally you're spend all day and all night catching and packing frogs and then you spend all or part of a day driving somewhere and getting everything set up, then you spend the next 2 days standing on your feet answering the same questions over and over again usually without a spare second to grab a bite of food and on the 2nd day after standing for the last 8 hours you have to tear everything down and make the drive back home. As soon as you get home there is no time for a break because you have to unpack the frogs! By this time they haven't eaten in a good 4 days and that next meal is getting urgent for younger frogs. That 2 day show really requires 4-6 long days of work! Now imagine if the show is slow and you don't make any sales for all that work. We've done shows where we sold less then $300 over the entire weekend! Not even enough to cover the cost of the table fees. Weekends like that are enough to make you question your sanity, your religion, and your direction in life.
> .



People are often amazed when I tell them I don't have a house full of frogs and other amphibians.. In part because I already work with them for 8 hours a day (at a minimum), on occasion the last thing I want to do is come home to many hours more. This is one reason why I have so few amphibians at home (well compared to work..). 
Burn out is an underrated factor not only in the business but in the hobby itself. Its easy to get so many animals that you end up spending all of your free time caring for the frogs and eventually wipe yourself out. 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ed said:


> People are often amazed when I tell them I don't have a house full of frogs and other amphibians.. In part because I already work with them for 8 hours a day (at a minimum), on occasion the last thing I want to do is come home to many hours more. This is one reason why I have so few amphibians at home (well compared to work..).
> Burn out is an underrated factor not only in the business but in the hobby itself. Its easy to get so many animals that you end up spending all of your free time caring for the frogs and eventually wipe yourself out.
> 
> Ed


I'm the same way about fish. I wouldn't own a fish tank if you paid me since I work with them all day.


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

JL-Exotics said:


> Yes, in theory you are correct. But I think you're missing the point just a tiny bit. The main difference is that your average home theater system is not required to have baby theater systems for you to have a product to sell in the first place. Nor do the baby theater systems need food and shelter until they grow up. And if they do grow up "broken" (i.e. SLS etc.) there is no factory to return them to for a replacement/refund. Nor do you have to worry about the average home theatre enthusiast starting to build home made systems in his garage and selling them to all the other home theatre stores at hugely discounted prices and the home made systems are usually just as good as the factory models!!
> 
> Aaron has been doing this for a long long time and not too long ago he was doing it on a fairly grand scale with an amazing selection of dendros. His customer service has always been top notch and he has a customer base that few can compare with. When you operate on a large scale you are literally tied to the frogs. Vacations become impossible. It becomes a lifestyle more than a job and it demands everything from you to do it properly.
> 
> ...


I understand exactly what your talking about, which is why I made the post that I did. 

When I was a younger and more eager I had a pretty successful breeding operation of bearded dragons, chameleons and red eyed tree frogs. I produced large amounts of animals that sold almost instantly for years and I made a decent amount of money doing so. As with all other animals, prices started falling on all of these animals and what was once a pretty lucrative situation started to not be. I fully understand the "cost of doing business" with live animals with spindly leg, disease, fighting of young and such. Unfortunately that is exactly what it is though...the cost of doing business. When I started having similar issues to what your discussing with the prices and being lowballed by hobbyist I had to make decisions. I started to expand what I was doing into dry goods and such which I originally didn't want to do. It took a while to build, but once it did I was back on my smooth track of making money and still breeding and selling my animals at a lower market competitive rate. I eventually started to add a few rarer animals into my collection to work with. Unfortunately I had a hard time competing with the wild caught animals that were on the market so I had several longterm hold overs. What I found is that people that I had introduced into the hobby by being their first supplier of a chameleon or something similar would come back and many times I could mould their collections and they would start to buy some of my rarer stuff. Not because it was the best price or the fanciest animal, but because I was there for them from their inception into the hobby. Some of the best customers I ever had were customers that would sit and listen to my advice for long periods of time at a show. I've been setup at shows in the past and didn't even come close to paying for my table fees and such. But the contacts that I made and the time I put into being helpful to visitors of my table usually would pay off a few weeks later. I usually sold more within the weeks following a show then I would at a given show. Many people just want someone that is willing to help them out along the way and once you've done that will repay you with loyalty.

I'm not trying to say that either of you are poor at customer service or what not. I'm just trying to give you a little bit of advice from what worked for me in a similar situation. The basic fundamentals of business still apply, you just have different costs of doing business.


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## JL-Exotics (Nov 10, 2005)

jubjub47 said:


> I understand exactly what your talking about, which is why I made the post that I did.
> 
> ... As with all other animals, prices started falling on all of these animals and what was once a pretty lucrative situation started to not be. I fully understand the "cost of doing business" with live animals with spindly leg, disease, fighting of young and such. Unfortunately that is exactly what it is though...the cost of doing business. When I started having similar issues to what your discussing with the prices and being lowballed by hobbyist I had to make decisions. ....
> 
> I'm not trying to say that either of you are poor at customer service or what not. I'm just trying to give you a little bit of advice from what worked for me in a similar situation. The basic fundamentals of business still apply, you just have different costs of doing business.





JL-Exotics said:


> ... This is a tough business market to try and make any profit from. Very tough. I think you (Aaron) made the argument perfectly that a business model must constantly evolve and change to keep pace with the market. What worked 10 years ago, 5 years ago, 1 year ago may not be successful today and it takes a lot of time, money, and energy (and luck) to figure out what the next direction should be and position yourself to see any benefit. We've experience many of the same things you describe.
> 
> All I can say it good luck and hang in there!


I'm pretty sure all 3 of us are saying the same thing


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think so


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I`m sure we are. 
The hitch to selling dry goods is if everyone starts selling supplies to keep in business then the big "companies" buy a whole lot of dry goods and further divide the money made until eventually 1 more company opens up and none of them can stay open anymore. 
I`m extremely lucky w/ always coming in under the wire. I have enough wood to heat the place this winter, 2 deer, a half cow, shelves of home grown beans, pickles and salsa, etc, which is what I was doing when I was scaling back the way I did. This isn`t a business as much as what`s best for the animals. There are other breeders w/ wc tincs(mine were all sib pairs), etc and no one was filling the niche of wc pumilio genetics other than a select few. Terribilis are always hurting too because of limited genetics in the country and that they are touchier to breed than most. My leuc pair and bicolor pair are both 12 years old and I see them not coming in anytime soon and are some of the original f1`s that were produced. Same as w/ the Red galacts. Making a living is secondary to fulfilling what`s needed in the hobby for me. A lot of people have done really well and focus on thumbs so I don`t see a need there, although I`m getting the itch to work w/ some again. It`s just unfortunate I bred too many pumilio/pair to get rid of which led me to build up a large collection only to dwindle back to a single pair of a few select morphs very quickly. Hopefully those pairs will produce well for who took them off my hands. Even w/ less than 20 pairs of pumilio I was caring for 200-300 pumilio offspring at a time. It`s not a matter of money or business plan, just unwanted mouths to feed. All of a sudden your up to 70+ hours a week and selling animals for cost for a while just to catch up. For the last 10 years, as I think Tim? said, there was a need for cb frogs, dragons, etc. but it takes 6 + months to shut the machine down(stop producing frogs) so it`s real easy, esp in this economy to miss the critical threshold? so to speak.
The same rules apply w/ the added hurdles of dealing w/ live animals and reproduction.


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