# Anyone working with Vanzolini?



## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey,
anyone working with D. Vanzolini?


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

If they're out there, somehow I don't think they will be speaking up.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well i want some, so if anyone is let me know and just pm me. 

you hiding something Mike? lol


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

No, just meant that as far as I knew these weren't legally brought in to the US (not sure though), so I'd assume if someone in the US had them, they wouldn't be posting about it.

Not sure about this, but I do remember having heard a rumor that Mark Pepper was working on bringing them in, in the future.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

Mike, dont' worry your secret is safe with me. 

i am kidding i knew what you meant. 
For some reason Canada has more leniant laws when it comes to wildlife as not much of anything would survive up there. i wish they would do the same here.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Just to be clear, the reason why Mark Pepper is able to bring Peruvian born frogs into Canada is because he and Manuel Sanchez are working with the permission of the Peruvian government on the Understory effort. Frogs are being legally exported from Peru with CITES documentation that allows them to go to Canada and ultimately elsewhere.

Bill


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well aside from having a export permit you still need an import permit as well and the US is not as leniant as Canada is when it comes to bringing in animals from the tropics.


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## jmoose (Jun 21, 2006)

Q for those who purchased frogs from the Understory :
Since they are in Canada, did you have to obtain importation paper works by yourself to bring them into the US ?



Corpus Callosum said:


> Not sure about this, but I do remember having heard a rumor that Mark Pepper was working on bringing them in, in the future.


I remember someone posted about this rumor, but since they are Peru based operation and vanzo being found in Brazil, is it realistic or just rumor ?
Unless vanzo can also be found in Peru (Brazil/Peru borderline area ?)


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

I work with them.... and yes there has been legal imports into the US from the EU. But I wont export so don't ask :lol:


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

last i check mark provides those permits for you, but i could be wrong, i know that he went through alot before he could ship out of Canada, but now he does.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

jmoose said:


> Q for those who purchased frogs from the Understory :
> Since they are in Canada, did you have to obtain importation paper works by yourself to bring them into the US ?
> 
> 
> ...



It is my understanding that they (Understory) are no longer exporting to individuals, only as bulk shipments through SNDF at this time...

S


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## jmoose (Jun 21, 2006)

sports_doc said:


> It is my understanding that they (Understory) are no longer exporting to individuals, only as bulk shipments through SNDF at this time...
> 
> S


Ahhh, so the recent import of pumilios from SNDF was actually from Understory ? Or does SNDF import by themselves and also act as a middleman for Understory ?
I am not familiar with # of importers bringing frogs for us ...
Thanks


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

M. Breece has been in the frog importation business for a long time. In the past he was active in importing tinctorius, and recently he has been working with the frog farm in Panama. He also acts as middleman for Understory's imports.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

First off, Vanzos are from Peru,
Second, as stated, Marcus acts as the US distributor for Understory enterprises. If you want to buy an understory frog and you live in the US, you better talk to Marcus because as of now that's your only choice. Understory still exports to Canada to their operation there, so Marcus isn't involved with Canddian frogs. Understory is a Peru operation and all of the pumilio that Marcus brought in came from Panama... totally unrelated. As stated Marcus has imported a number of frogs from a number of localities in the past, but his relation to the Panama farms is that he has helped them a lot to improve their operations and shipping/treatment procedures so as to improve the survivability of frogs not only in the farms, but also that come to us in imports. He generally gets first shake because of his assistance to them, which is why you almost always see the new pumilio come in through him. Hope that clears up any confusion.
Vanzos have been imported to the US and probably will continue to be in limited numbers from Europe. There is a raging debate between the European froggers (and yes Paul, as far as I'm concerned European includes you :lol: ) and others as to whether they are truly "legal". As the story goes, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far.... oh wait... anyways... several years ago an illegally smuggled shipment that included vanzos was confiscated by European (not sure which... want to say German maybe?) authorities. They realized that they could not care for the animals so they placed them in the hands of someone who could, Harold Divossen (sp?). He was given "legal" rights to have them by whatever country gave em to him, so as a result any offspring from Divossen's frogs are considered legal offspring in most European corners. Some in the US and in conservation circles maintain that since they were exported legally (they were seized from a smuggled shipment), they still aren't legal which is where the debate comes in. It's really a philosophical debate because as far as the European countries are concerned they will issue export permits for vanzos (although I am told you have to prove descent from a Divossen pair... not sure if that's true or not) and will give CITES permits, so in the country's eyes they are legal, but it comes down to the person and what they believe as to whether they are legal or not. Now that all that is out, let's not open the mysteriosus can or worms by asking why we can't get them... not gonna happen.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I personally know two people who have them. They have good reputations in the hobby, and I've been told the animals are legal with CITES paperwork.

Don't ask me who. Both of them are dendroboard members, and if they want to come forward or not I'm going to leave it up to them.


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## flyingkip (Jan 9, 2005)

sbreland said:


> Vanzos have been imported to the US and probably will continue to be in limited numbers from Europe. There is a raging debate between the European froggers (and yes Paul, as far as I'm concerned European includes you :lol: ) and others as to whether they are truly "legal". As the story goes, a long time ago, in a galaxy far far.... oh wait... anyways... several years ago an illegally smuggled shipment that included vanzos was confiscated by European (not sure which... want to say German maybe?) authorities. They realized that they could not care for the animals so they placed them in the hands of someone who could, Harold Divossen (sp?). He was given "legal" rights to have them by whatever country gave em to him, so as a result any offspring from Divossen's frogs are considered legal offspring in most European corners.


Right you are, they were given to divossen, and he recieved papers so he could sell his offspring. These are considered legal in almost every european country (Belgium not included, they have to do different like always,...)


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## jmoose (Jun 21, 2006)

Thanks for the clarification, guys.
Now I know who operates where and who gets frogs from where.

As for Vanzos, I thought they were from Brazil because :
1. its common name "Brazilian frog" 
2. we don't have them (besides few exceptions from EU) because the Brazilian gov't prohibits them from being exported ... at least that how remember from the past post here


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## Manuran (Aug 28, 2007)

D. vanzolinii occurs in Brazil and Peru. They were described by Myers from frogs collected in Brazil.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

> so in the country's eyes they are legal, but it comes down to the person and what they believe as to whether they are legal or not.


I believe stace is trying to say they are legal, but the question is whether it is ethical to keep, breed, and/or sell a frog who was stripped from the wild and provides an umbrella under which other frogs are smuggled (I could get some from Brazil/peru and say they are the german line and no one could tell the difference). Some say if we breed enough we can squelch the smuggling market while others say you can't.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

I believe stace is trying to say they are legal, but the question is whether it is ethical to keep, breed, and/or sell a frog who was stripped from the wild and provides an umbrella under which other frogs are smuggled (I could get some from Brazil/peru and say they are the german line and no one could tell the difference). Some say if we breed enough we can squelch the smuggling market while others say you can't.[/quote]


Josh, wouldn't you need to provide documentation? that is how it was in the past when ever i got frogs that came in from Germany, they had to provide documentation for the frogs, and i am sure that now with today's day and age things have gotten a little tougher. 

I do remember when i was working with some frogs that were under CITES i had to document everything with pics. the setup show proof that i bred them myself and tadpole setup.


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## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

Rumor has it that people were buying 1 or 2 legal vanzs to make all the vanzs they had in their collection legal.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

insteresting!!


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I have serious doubts that anyone currently working with Vanzos is going to chime in, post or pm....

perhaps after they are imported through Canada, but not likely until then, if at all.

Imagine the wait lists just amongst close circles of friends alone...

S


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah i know, i think is gonna be atleat 3 years before we see them on a regular basis.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Hopefully questionable frogs will be brought in and tracked, this way if say understory brings in 5-10 vanzos and me and someone else gets them then we can list on our site who is recieving offspring and how opld they were, then you can trace back to anyone selling them to find out if they came from me or the other person in the country working w/ "legal" vanzos.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> Hopefully questionable frogs will be brought in and tracked, this way if say understory brings in 5-10 vanzos and me and someone else gets them then we can list on our site who is recieving offspring and how opld they were, then you can trace back to anyone selling them to find out if they came from me or the other person in the country working w/ "legal" vanzos.


Yet another reason to join the ASN. Tree Walkers is now a probationary member of ISIS and we are using the ISIS software to accession and track animals. If we get full membership, it should make it much easier to track, and exchange, legal animals within the network and likely among zoos. But this won't happen without more participation in the program.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Yet another reason to join the ASN. Tree Walkers is now a probationary member of ISIS and we are using the ISIS software to accession and track animals. If we get full membership, it should make it much easier to track, and exchange, legal animals within the network and likely among zoos. But this won't happen without more participation in the program.


Aaron (frogfarm),

You part of the ASN crew yet or not? "We" need ya! 

signed: ASN member sports_doc


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

Julio said:


> yeah i know, i think is gonna be at least 3 years before we see them on a regular basis.


You were off by _one_ year.....



A little thread necromancy


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

good, i am glad they are here now with regularity!


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