# Almost entire collection wiped out!?!?!?!?!



## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

So you know those horror stories of entire collections wiped out? I'm one of those unlucky souls that this happened to. About a month ago I was feeding the frogs and noticed my auratus not eating, no big deal they were both pretty fat so I thought they weren't hungry, next day same thing. Fast forward a week and almost all my frogs arent eating and are getting skinny and I'm freaked out. another week and my auratus tank goes, next imitator then lamasi (forget the new name) then aurotaenia finally my male azureus dies, the only survivor is the female. I don't know what happened or what to do in this situation, I was on the verge of tears when the male died, my female is eating BB right know to fatten up in quarantine, what am I supposed to do, take down and sterilize the tanks, run them empty for a few months? Help Dendroboard


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

oh no!!! im so sorry. i hope the last one makes it.


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm so sorry 

Where there any skin changes that you could see?

Since whatever is going on has killed so many of your frogs, I would gut the tanks (the guts should be handled carefully, double bagged) and sanitize the empty tanks with bleach.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dendroguy said:


> So you know those horror stories of entire collections wiped out? I'm one of those unlucky souls that this happened to. About a month ago I was feeding the frogs and noticed my auratus not eating, no big deal they were both pretty fat so I thought they weren't hungry, next day same thing. Fast forward a week and almost all my frogs arent eating and are getting skinny and I'm freaked out. another week and my auratus tank goes, next imitator then lamasi (forget the new name) then aurotaenia finally my male azureus dies, the only survivor is the female. I don't know what happened or what to do in this situation, I was on the verge of tears when the male died, my female is eating BB right know to fatten up in quarantine, what am I supposed to do, take down and sterilize the tanks, run them empty for a few months? Help Dendroboard


When was the last time you bought any new frogs/plants? Do you monitor temps in their room? Do you hand mist or is it automated? Where is the water from?


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

do you quarantine? also you might want to have a necropsy done


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh wow I'm so sorry to ear that =(

Did you practice any sterile technique when managing the frogs/food/vivs? i.e. Sanitizing your hands when moving from one viv to the next, or between vivs and the food?


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Hypo; I do wash my hands when I work with the tanks but not when feeding.

Julio;I do not quarantine unless I add new frogs to an established group.

Cebron; I got the azureus 3 months before this started, I do monitor temps, constant 74-76, hand mist and the water is distilled spring.

Frogface; no skin changes, and I will gut the tanks I plan to keep.

The only thing I can think that caused this are my FF cultured which had a bacteria/mold problem at the time, other than that I don't know. I'm going to take down 3 of my 5 tanks and gut the two remaining, after this incident hopefully gets resolved I will stick with just tincs, thanks a bunch guys


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

always quarantine, in a separate room from the rest of the collection too.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

I just want to say I am so sorry for what you're going through...it sounds like a nightmare! I don't know what may have caused it (can mold in a ff culture do such a thing?), but yes...definitely sterilize everything and have your remaining frog checked out before obtaining any more. It would be absolutely horrendous to have this happen all over again!


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Definitely not getting more frogs for at least 4-6 months


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dendroguy said:


> Hypo; I do wash my hands when I work with the tanks but not when feeding.
> 
> Julio;I do not quarantine unless I add new frogs to an established group.
> 
> ...


Two things that stick out, ff mold, that can definitely do it from what I hear. There are certain kinds of mold that can kill, I know Ed posted about this a couple months back...

The azureus would be another possibility, did you qt them first? Just b/c they are not sharing a tank with your other frogs does not mean they can't get everything else sick. There are numerous means of transmission and a wide variety of viruses, bacteria and fungus that can kill frogs...


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Did not quarantine the azureus, I almost never quarantined because I didn't think something like this but now I wil DEFINITELY going to from now on


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

cbreon said:


> The azureus would be another possibility, did you qt them first? Just b/c they are not sharing a tank with your other frogs does not mean they can't get everything else sick. There are numerous means of transmission and a wide variety of viruses, bacteria and fungus that can kill frogs...


One thing that sticks out because not many people do it... not properly sanitizing your hands and or tools between working on different tanks is a very easy to transfer nasties between tanks. 

Also, I believe I've read that fruit flies wandering from tank to tank can even carry pathogens


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

Dendroguy said:


> Did not quarantine the azureus, I almost never quarantined because I didn't think something like this but now I wil DEFINITELY going to from now on


its a sad way to learn the lesson, its happened to many and a lesson you will not forget. Sorry for your loss


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

carola1155 said:


> Also, I believe I've read that fruit flies wandering from tank to tank can even carry pathogens


That is correct and I would guess its one of the more common means of transfer...


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## alyon (Oct 6, 2010)

Dendroguy said:


> Hypo; I do wash my hands when I work with the tanks but not when feeding.
> 
> Julio;I do not quarantine unless I add new frogs to an established group.
> 
> ...


Isn't distilled water bad for the frogs?


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## yomamafat (Jun 16, 2010)

Distilled water is hypo-osmotic. It can be a problem if they are soaking in it.


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## cbreon (Apr 25, 2005)

alyon said:


> Isn't distilled water bad for the frogs?


http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...er-distilled-what-do-you-use-what-best-2.html

Advanced search function will answer most of your questions on all frog subjects...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

alyon said:


> Isn't distilled water bad for the frogs?





yomamafat said:


> Distilled water is hypo-osmotic. It can be a problem if they are soaking in it.


See http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/70300-water-discussion.html where the real differences are actually discussed... what you are discussing is actually voodoo husbandry to a large extent... 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Dendroguy said:


> Did not quarantine the azureus, I almost never quarantined because I didn't think something like this but now I wil DEFINITELY going to from now on


Multiple enclosure deaths are usually indicative of either a highly contagious infection (and as was correctly noted above, insects traveling between cages can transfer infectious agents), enviromental or exposure to a toxic agent. 

The temperature zone is right on the cusp of where chytrid readily kills infected animals. Some viral infections are also a possibility as is mycoplasmosis, however I haven't seen anything that really rules out exposure to a toxic agent (for example (not a definitive list) acetone, paint thinner/remover, aerosolized old paint, tobacco smoke, essential oils, pesticides, herbicides....). Some of the those things do not take much in the way of exposure to wipe out amphibians. Pesticide and herbicide transfer can also be via secondary transfer (as a hypothetical example, a exposed person washes thier hands but doesn't get all of the pesticide/herbicide off and then dries thier hands on a towel. The towel is now contaminated, and subsequent hand washing recontaminates the hands and allows for contamination of the enclosure). 

As you can see, there are a huge number of potential causes of sudden mass mortality and at best all we can do is guess at them. Some testing will go a long way to determining what actually happened (even if it just rules out some potential causes like chytrid or ranavirus). 

Some comments,

Ed


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks a lot Ed, your posts always help. If the female doesn't survive I'm going to get a necropsy done


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## frogface (Feb 20, 2010)

I just feel so sick about this. How awful. I'm truly sorry


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

In the old ADG newsletters there were were a couple of articles by vets who have experience in frogs giving an indication of how to do a home necropsy.. This is basically a gross necropsy but it could give someone an idea of what is going on in the case of multiple deaths..(particularly when you have some texts that provide indications of how the tissues should look on a gross necropsy (like Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry or even Biomedical and Surgical Aspects of Reptile Husbandry (since healthy tissues can look the same cross taxa) 

See 

*1994 No. 17 September - October *
*"Kitchen Counter Frog Pathology: Part 1" by Brian Monk*Brian details the steps involved in performing an autopsy of a frog 

*1994 No. 18 November - December 
"Kitchen Counter Frog Pathology: Part 2" by Brian Monk *​ 
*1997 No. 31 January - March *
*"Veterinary Notes - Parasites" by Brian Monk (http://www.doylesdartden.com/AGD_31.html) *

My thoughts behind these articles is that if there is a massive die off, a couple can be done by the hobbyist while getting some tests done... Keep in mind that frogs going out for necropsy cannot be frozen as that destroys the tissues. 

Ed 



​


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## yomamafat (Jun 16, 2010)

Ed, you are certainly a definitive subject matter expert and thanks for the great thread regarding RO/DI.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

yomamafat said:


> Ed, you are certainly a definitive subject matter expert and thanks for the great thread regarding RO/DI.


The more you know about the physiology of the animals under your care, the better you can provide the proper care for them...... 

Ed


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## jibfest (Dec 1, 2010)

My condolences, something we all worry about in the back of our mind. I've got realatives in Tenn, good people! I'm sure your local froggers will come through and help you rebuild your collection once you get things cleaned up.


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Are you sure the temps didn't exceed the normal parameters? Pathogens and chytrid are of course one potential cause but given the time frame I would agree that it seems environmental.


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## ivas (Jan 24, 2009)

OH NO!!! I am so sorry to hear about this! Definitely tear down and sanitize all the tanks. If/when you are ready to get some more frogs, I'll be happy to get you started back with a few froglets (for free or at cost). I am moving out of Tennessee soon, so I'd have to ship. Hang in there! Let me know if there is anything I can do!


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## Brian317 (Feb 11, 2011)

Very sorry to hear  I wish you the best to find out what happened and rebuild your collection.


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## chesney (Jan 18, 2007)

So sorry to hear about your frogs! If there is anything I can do, just let me know!


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Thanks a bunch guys this has been a rough ordeal, I've started gutting the tanks and I'm taking them down, I'm leaving only two for azureus and tincs, in a few moths I'm going to start my collection back up with, like I said before, just a male azureus and a tinc pair from local froggers, hopefully I can find out what this mass mortality was caused by, if not at least eradicate it, thanks again guys


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## Bcs TX (Sep 13, 2008)

First of all I am sorry for your loss....
I would personally reccomend testing on your remaining frog. IMO PCR for chytrid and rana plus fecals. Tearing down tanks is a first step, please be sure all of the plants and substrate are bleached before disposal.
Here is a link on companies that do PCR testing for Chytrid and Ranavirus: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/84560-might-have-chytrid.html
Please be sure to test before you get new frogs, plus take the appropriate steps before aquiring new frogs. Did you notify the seller on your losses after your newly acquired frogs?
Just a few thoughts.....


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Bleaching the organics like substrate and plants isn't going to help since all of the organics are going to shield any potential pathogens or parasites. Instead best practice is to double bag them and discard into the proper waste stream. 

Ed


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

Bcs TX said:


> First of all I am sorry for your loss....
> I would personally reccomend testing on your remaining frog. IMO PCR for chytrid and rana plus fecals. Tearing down tanks is a first step, please be sure all of the plants and substrate are bleached before disposal.
> Here is a link on companies that do PCR testing for Chytrid and Ranavirus: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-health-disease-treatment/84560-might-have-chytrid.html
> Please be sure to test before you get new frogs, plus take the appropriate steps before aquiring new frogs. Did you notify the seller on your losses after your newly acquired frogs?
> Just a few thoughts.....


I am definitely going to take the right precautions and dispose of the substrate, re home/dispose of the plants and sterilize the tanks,I have already taken down two of the the tanks, I will finish taking down the other three tomorrow, going to visit the sites now
Edit: just visited the RAL site, going to send in a swab of the female tomorrow


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## Dendroguy (Dec 4, 2010)

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU- bloody hell, the female passed this morning, this is a HUGE bummer, no more froggies  I felt like crying I don't really know if I'll get back into PDF's, this was a huge devastation I have the tanks cleaned right know I only have two clean tanks that are planted which may or may not stay up many thanks to everybody who has helped me throughout my frogging hobby I will decide soon if I want to give it another go sometime, but until then, I'm kaput

D


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## tfox799947 (Jun 4, 2012)

So sorry that you lost the female. I know the heartbreak your feeling. So freaking scary.
I hope you find some comfort remembering the enjoyment your frogs gave you. 
Peace,
Christine


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