# terribilis picture to explain



## Guest (Mar 26, 2005)

I have grown this frog from a froglet. It is now over a year old and has developed this problem. 3 months ago there was a slight bulge under one of it's sholder and has continued to grow untill this.

















He is definetly not calling. Since this picture the swelling has gone down and returned again, but it never completly goes away. What can this be? Is it cronic? If it does survive long enough to breed, should I let it?


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

Off hand, the frog does look on the heavy side, and the waddle could be fat. Did it appear suddenly or gradually? Has the frog altered it's behavior in any way? Lethargic? Appetite? Is it possible to get more pictures?
Best of luck.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2005)

It has appeared gradually over the past 4 months. Those pictures were taken about 3 weeks ago, and at that point the swollen area was huge. In the past 3 weeks since that picture the area has reduced to almost nothing, and then returned, then gone away, and come again. 

He not fatter than any of his siblings are. Infact he has not grown as fast as his brother and sister, and is quite smaller than them. He eats well. The only difference in his behaviour, is that he hides more often than before, and more often than his siblings do.

Something else I have noticed on him is that his hands do not seem normal. They turn outward to an abnormal extent. This forces his fingers to be in very ackward positions, and looks like he is double-jointed. He is actually almost stepping on his own fingers sometimes.

Sorry, I can't get pics right now. I just freaked my frogs out trying to get some.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

TAKE HIM TO A VET!


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2005)

The vet costs too much money for me to spend right now. If I knew he could definetly help my frog I would go. The last time i went it cost me more for the visit and treatment than it would cost for a new frog, and my pet still died within the next two months.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

I think, as pet owners, we have the responsibility to provide the animal treatment when it is in need, regardless if its only a $50 frog. When we own these animals they depend on us for all of their care and we owe it to them to provide help when its needed. To say that it is too expensive and simply let the animal suffer until its eventual death is irresponsible and cruel.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2005)

I am not saying that i'd rather let it die, because i can buy another one for cheaper. I am not about to spend that kinda money at the vet if my animal is going to die anyways. It is not irresponsible or cruel. This animal would have developed the same condition if he had been born in the wild. My responsibility has been to provide the best conditions for this frog to live in (ie. food, vitamins and minerals, humidity). I don't have money to throw away at the vet, especially when it is likely he will not even be able to help. 

The reason I posted this thread was to see if anyone could identify the problem, not to be told I am irresponsible or crule. That is your opinion mindcrash, and this is mine. 

Well, posting here was useless! I asked for help to save my frog, but instead I got an useless and unfounded ethical lecture.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> Well, posting here was useless! I asked for help to save my frog, but instead I got an useless and unfounded ethical lecture.


I think that is a bit of a hasty assumption. Very few of us on the boards are DVMs, or have had the necessary schooling to give you precise advice on how to treat a frog based solely on a couple of photographs. I think that the least you can do is to get a fecal run. You may be short on cash, but I'm sure you could come up with the $15 plus a stamp to get an opinion from a Vet with real life experience in treating this kind of thing. Personally, I have never seen a frog experience bloating of that kind, so I have no answers for you either. What did you expect? To not have to purchase any kind of treatment to cure it? For someone to see your frog and say, "I know what that is! You must utter the magic words; "Anura, Anura, Nematoda, Be healed!". Well, maybe I went a bit overboard.


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

I don't agree with your argument. Let's apply this logic to another animal. Say you picked up a stray dog or cat from a shelter. You took care of it like you should, but after awhile, it got sick. Now, would it be your responsibility to take the animal to the vet and try to cure the animal's illness? Or would you say that because the animal came off the street it would have just gotten sick anyway and it wasn't your responsibility to provide it medical care?

I do sympathize with your problem. I had a leopard gecko that had an abcess in her jaw. Took her to the vet and paid over $100 to have her treated and she died anyway. But I would still do it all over again, because I feel that when you own an animal you are responsible for its welfare. I couldn't not do it and live with myself knowing that I didn't do everything I could feasably do to save her life.


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## mindcrash (Mar 3, 2004)

ortega said:


> I am not saying that i'd rather let it die, because i can buy another one for cheaper. I am not about to spend that kinda money at the vet if my animal is going to die anyways.


To that I ask, how would you know if the frog would die even after receiving treatment? You can't say for certain that it will, and the odds are greater that it would survive. If you don't seek treatment it will almost certainly die. 



ortega said:


> It is not irresponsible or cruel. This animal would have developed the same condition if he had been born in the wild. My responsibility has been to provide the best conditions for this frog to live in (ie. food, vitamins and minerals, humidity). I don't have money to throw away at the vet, especially when it is likely he will not even be able to help.


I don't think anyone could say for certain if this condition would have occurred in the wild, but that isn't the point. The point is that the condition occurred while you owned the frog which makes you morally obligated to seek treatment. This is no different than all of the horror stories I have seen on TV where dog owners would rather let a dog suffer and die than take it to a vet.



ortega said:


> The reason I posted this thread was to see if anyone could identify the problem, not to be told I am irresponsible or crule. That is your opinion mindcrash, and this is mine.


One of the most important things in this world is the free-flow of ideas and unfettered debate. We don't have to agree, but you did post this thread on a forum and therefore invited comment, whether it was what you intended or not. One thing I am wondering about is this: If you are unwilling to seek treatment for this frog, what was the point in posting this thread? Did you wish to satisfy your curiosity while dooming the frog through your inaction?


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

If the condition has gotten better and then flared back up, perhaps treatment is an option. You could call around and see how much a vet is willing to give you over the phone for free. Heck, the amount of vets you can call for free is only limited by your time and long distance minutes.

There also may be some "ask your vet" forums on the Internet that could be helpful. I'm pretty sure I've run into some of those in the past. Finally, you could try to find somebody in the research field that might answer out of curiosity. My uneducated, unqualified guess is that it could be some sort of endocrine system issue. Evidently frogs have a thyroid like humans that can get goiter or develop tumors. Sounds like sending off for the fecals might be a good, inexpensive idea. Maybe quarantine into a simple enclosure with minimal things that could cause a reaction could help and minimize the chance of your other frogs getting ill...


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## Darren Meyer (May 22, 2004)

I have raised terribilis for years. One thing is they really tend to overeat . 
Looks like some of my orange terribilis adults , I feed once a week ! I know that sounds crazy but they are such hearty eaters the tend to go overboard if you let them ,and it apears as though they have . Try feeding less ,but I woulden"t panic ,just looks as it needs a diet !
Darren


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## Arklier (Mar 1, 2004)

Given the abrupt changes in size over the past four weeks, I don't think it's fat. They don't lose and regain weight that fast.


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Looks like subcutaneous edema to me ( I have only seen this in some chameleons though). What is the frogs diet and what is the fruitfly medium made out of. If this is sub edema is can be caused by vitamin A toxicity.

-Mike


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## vet_boy77 (Feb 10, 2005)

I agree that this can be subcutaneous edema. As to the cause, that can be more mysterious. Parasites, kidney, liver, heart, GI disease, and congenital problems might be the cause. 
This is a long and broad list. I think a fecal exam would be a good start. The abnormal legs, if they are, can also be reflective opf a congenital defect or skeletal disease, but I cannot be certain without seeing it myself.
The fluxuations in the neck waddle make obesity less likely. 
Best of luck.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2005)

I think it is a leg infection, arising from an injury. Tri sulfa is recommended to kill the infection. here are more recent pics..


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