# Are housing 1.2 imi's a bad idea for breeding?



## mattolsen (Feb 26, 2009)

I know that imi's are known to be somewhat monogamous, however, if I were housing 2 females with one male is it possible that the females may prevent eachother from breeding? I house the same ratio with my intermedius and I've had a lot of success where both females seem to be laying eggs because for awhile I was getting clutches of 3-5 every 8-10 days. However, the same success has not been had with the nominal imi's. Anyone have any input?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

There's no "somewhat" about it. They are monogamous. 3-5 eggs every 8-10 days is actually less than some of my pairs lay, so I sincerely doubt that the second female was contributing eggs for you.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

johnc said:


> There's no "somewhat" about it. They are monogamous. 3-5 eggs every 8-10 days is actually less than some of my pairs lay, so I sincerely doubt that the second female was contributing eggs for you.


Since when? Plenty of people have trios pumping out tons of offspring. This is how nonsense canon is spread.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I'd try pulling a female, and see how breeding goes. I've had pairs that bred better with 1.1, and groups that produced many more offspring than lone pairs. It seems to be up to the individual animals - like many things involving living organisms, there are no hard and fast answers.


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## SmackoftheGods (Jan 28, 2009)

I do my best to house my imitators in pairs for the most part. There are those who have great success housing in trios or groups, but it's not worth it to me.


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## McBobs (Apr 26, 2007)

I've always kept a 1.2 trio breeding and has always worked well for me. I've gotten tons of eggs and in all reality, were laying clutches faster than I could find and pull them. 1.2 trio is definitely not a bad thing, but you might have better luck with a 1.1 or find that they're producing less. You'll just have to play with your ratio and see what works best.

-Matt

Sent from my T-Mobile G1 using Tapatalk


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

fleshfrombone said:


> Since when? Plenty of people have trios pumping out tons of offspring. This is how nonsense canon is spread.


I believe what John is referring to is the fact wild imitators are almost always both sexually and socially monogamous. Jason Brown proved this in a paper he published in april of this year, which you can find here:[link]http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/Publications.htm[/link], it is the fourth down.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

ghettopieninja said:


> I believe what John is referring to is the fact wild imitators are almost always both sexually and socially monogamous. Jason Brown proved this in a paper he published in april of this year, which you can find here:[link]http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/Publications.htm[/link], it is the fourth down.


I don't think he was and even if he was how does that pertain to the social dynamic of frogs in a glass box? lol cool screen name by the way.


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

ghettopieninja said:


> I believe what John is referring to is the fact wild imitators are almost always both sexually and socially monogamous. Jason Brown <snip>


Thank you very much!

To the original poster, I stand by what I said - I sincerely doubt that both females were contributing eggs at the rate you're listing. Let me elaborate. That is well within the bounds of what I observe in my single pairs - which is how I breed all of my imitators. Case in point, when I let them, my Varadero pair comfortably lays 2-4 eggs (occasionally 5) every 4 days (i.e. 3 clutches in less than 2 weeks). Shouldn't a 1.2 ratio produce at a faster rate?

You can read my thoughts on ratios in my imitator article from earlier this year.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

I've bred nominat imis in a 2.2 group, then a 1.2 group, and now in a 1.1 pair.
After removing the extra male, I had more egg production. When I removed the extra female, my egg production dropped by about a third. I physically saw both females laying clutches. Not saying that this is what is going on with your group, but this is my experience.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

ghettopieninja said:


> I believe what John is referring to is the fact wild imitators are almost always both sexually and socially monogamous. Jason Brown proved this in a paper he published in april of this year, which you can find here:[link]http://www.jasonleebrown.org/jasonleebrown.org/PUBS/Publications.htm[/link], it is the fourth down.


Yes I agree---the imis are one of the few monogamous frogs out there. Not that every pair will be---I would bet certain ones are and others aren't. They are my most favorite frog. 

I had a 1:2 of standard imis and the second female was not allowed near the eggs or the other female whatsoever. There was nary a chance for egg-eating, let alone being seen. Sell off the extra female to save her life or get a bigger tank than 75 Gs.


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

fleshfrombone said:


> I don't think he was and even if he was how does that pertain to the social dynamic of frogs in a glass box? lol cool screen name by the way.


You are quite the brawler, my friend! Sorry I have nothing new for you in the Thunderdome. 

Prolly the frogs vary by morph/species a bit in their behavior and based on the tank setup as well. 

Do you have a different experience with imis? I love to hear about imis.


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## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I bred my Imitator's in a 2.3 group in a 70 gallon with plenty of success. They will breed successfully in almost any setup depending on the acutall frogs and the conditions you put them in. I personally have not seen any true signs of monogamy in them but this is only my experience. I tend to use alot of wood and rockwork with heavy planting in my group vivs which offers visuall bariers and plenty of areas for laying sites.

Michael


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

It seems that many people have mixed success with keeping them in goups of more than a pair. 

Can those with groups of more than 1.1 let us know the tank size they are working with also?

Can we add this to the imitator section? I think it makes a great discussion


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

Monogamy arose in wild imitators as a way to exploit much smaller phytotelmata (breeding and rearing pools) than those used by other species, especially variabilis. Unlike bromeliad axles, these smaller pools do not hold enough nutrients on their own to support tadpole growth so co-parenting behaviors (and eventually full monogamy) arose in imitators to supply their tadpoles with trophic eggs in these smaller pools (heliconia flowers). In captivity we provide bromeliads and film canisters for their reproduction, both of which are larger than phytotelmata used in the wild and in an environment without other species competing for the same breeding resources. Also most hobbyists pull eggs and tadpoles once they find them in the tank, preventing the parents from raising them together and developing that monogamous bond. Basically monogamy is resource driven (available breeding pool size), if there is no constraint on that resource and no competition from other species there is no need for the behavior.


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## phender (Jan 9, 2009)

ghettopieninja said:


> Monogamy arose in wild imitators as a way to exploit much smaller phytotelmata (breeding and rearing pools) than those used by other species, especially variabilis. Unlike bromeliad axles, these smaller pools do not hold enough nutrients on their own to support tadpole growth so co-parenting behaviors (and eventually full monogamy) arose in imitators to supply their tadpoles with trophic eggs in these smaller pools (heliconia flowers). In captivity we provide bromeliads and film canisters for their reproduction, both of which are larger than phytotelmata used in the wild and in an environment without other species competing for the same breeding resources. Also most hobbyists pull eggs and tadpoles once they find them in the tank, preventing the parents from raising them together and developing that monogamous bond. Basically monogamy is resource driven (available breeding pool size), if there is no constraint on that resource and no competition from other species there is no need for the behavior.


What would the male's role be in supplying more trophic eggs? If you needed more trophic eggs, wouldn't polygamy (with females sharing in the feeding responsibilities) be a better solution?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I think all sides are correct. I imagine frogs are not much different than people. While some are perfectly happy and insist on a monogamous relationship. Others might be quite happy to another female (or male) around. I know if we could ever find the right girl we would love having a third wheel.


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## ghettopieninja (Jul 29, 2008)

phender said:


> What would the male's role be in supplying more trophic eggs? If you needed more trophic eggs, wouldn't polygamy (with females sharing in the feeding responsibilities) be a better solution?


The male will make routine visits to each tadpole and sit in it's pool. If the tadpole is hungry it will nibble the toes of the male (if I remember correctly), as a signal. The male will then call to the female and will coax her into laying an egg in the pool. The reason polygamy is not favored in this situation is that the would female have no idea of knowing if the tadpole she is feeding is her own or that of another female's. A female is only going to expend energy and resources in feeding her own offspring (which raises her individual fitness). If she is expending energy in feeding all tadpoles on the basis that SOME are her's then it is a net loss because she is giving up her resources to someone else's offspring at the expense of her own.


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## fleshfrombone (Jun 15, 2008)

earthfrog said:


> You are quite the brawler, my friend! Sorry I have nothing new for you in the Thunderdome.
> 
> Prolly the frogs vary by morph/species a bit in their behavior and based on the tank setup as well.
> 
> Do you have a different experience with imis? I love to hear about imis.


Only when I read what I think is nonsense do I get like that. It seems to me like John and Ghetto know what they're talking about but to present it as canon when we're discussing dart frogs in a vivarium irritates me. I don't know if locale morphs vary that much but they could, and certainly species do. I've kept imis in 1.1, 1.2, 2.2 etc and never ran into problems.


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

johnachilli said:


> It seems that many people have mixed success with keeping them in goups of more than a pair.
> 
> Can those with groups of more than 1.1 let us know the tank size they are working with also?


 2.2 in an 18x18x24 exo terra
1.2 in an 18x18x24 exo terra
1.1 in an 18x18x24 exo terra
1.1 in a 12x12x18 exo terra
1.1 in a 18x18x18 exo terra

The group was initially in a larger viv, then after the 1.1 pair bred well for around 6 months, I moved them into a smaller viv before switching to an 18cube, where they reside today.


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## johnachilli (Feb 8, 2007)

zBrinks said:


> 2.2 in an 18x18x24 exo terra
> 1.2 in an 18x18x24 exo terra
> 1.1 in an 18x18x24 exo terra
> 1.1 in a 12x12x18 exo terra
> ...


I would think that it is a safe bet to say that these are larger tanks then most use for imitators and that this could be a factor in success with groups. Issues with groups may be due to smaller tank sizes.


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## BlueRidge (Jun 12, 2010)

johnc said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> To the original poster, I stand by what I said - I sincerely doubt that both females were contributing eggs at the rate you're listing. Let me elaborate. That is well within the bounds of what I observe in my single pairs - which is how I breed all of my imitators. Case in point, when I let them, my Varadero pair comfortably lays 2-4 eggs (occasionally 5) every 4 days (i.e. 3 clutches in less than 2 weeks). Shouldn't a 1.2 ratio produce at a faster rate?
> 
> You can read my thoughts on ratios in my imitator article from earlier this year.


John, awesome article by the way!!


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## earthfrog (May 18, 2008)

fleshfrombone said:


> Only when I read what I think is nonsense do I get like that. It seems to me like John and Ghetto know what they're talking about but to present it as canon when we're discussing dart frogs in a vivarium irritates me. I don't know if locale morphs vary that much but they could, and certainly species do. I've kept imis in 1.1, 1.2, 2.2 etc and never ran into problems.


Cool!

I didn't have your experience, but thanks for sharing. I will not doubt you observed what you observed since I have no reason to doubt it. It would be easier for you to take a perspective of intrigue and introspection rather than irritation and consternation. I'm sure their experience is just as valid as yours and maybe influenced by factors of which we are not aware.


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