# Suitable occupants?



## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

Hi folks,

new to the boards, new to darts but not new to herps (been keeping and breeding snakes and lizards for ~18yrs).

I have just built a small false bottomed viv and was wondering what species you guys would recommend for it (if any - it may be too small - was originally for a trio of dwarf geckos). Anyway, here's the build...

This shows the false bottom (egg-crate (ebay)) and the corner for pump and cleaning/water change access. I have propped it up using short lengths of waste pipe (holes to stop stagnant water getting trapped).










I then cut the exo-terra background to fit two of the three sides.











Close up of the underneath










I then added weed guard which should stop soil washing into the reservior.











This was stuck all around with black silicon.

Then I added a large piece of natural tree fern trunk and the pump pipe (through a hole in the tree fern)










(also stuck a piece of mangrove wood up against the corner to try and soften the edge)

Testing the plants....a creeper, Pepperomia rotundifolia, a bromeliad Crypthanthus microglazioui and Kyoto dwarf mondo grass, Ophiopogon japonica. I also have some living moss, oak leaves and dendrosoil ready to go










Cheers

Andy


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

Here's the rest of the pics. Unfortunately, I got a bit carried away and forgot to do pics step by step, so there are a couple of big jumps!

Firstly this is after I have put a layer of hydroleca on top of the false bottom and added some orchid compost. You will also see a halftube of cork back siliconed to the side and filled with orchid soil. I half put another half cork tube at the back, under the waterfall outlet in order to help support the soil that will be sloped up that way. Finally you will also see the plastic (blue) tube that has been stuck to the false bottom. Once I did this I cut holes in the false bottom within this plastic (actually the top two inches of a plastic beaker - tesco job I think!). I then filled it with large gravel. This is the sink for the waterfall.











and a closeup of the corner












Now a huge jump from that to the final viv - I got so excited and 'into' the final bit I completely forgot to take pics!

Anyway - here it is! I added dendrosoil (woodlice everywhere!) and packed it in. Planted the plants (plus an extra bromeliad you can see in the top right corner) and then added living moss and a few oak leaves. Lid on and a few pictures!











Close up











I figured it needed a bit more things to climb on so added some cut-up twisty vine to finish off. 










I have a dried bracken fungus to cover the waterfall outlet, but the varnish is still drying!





Oh, I forgot to add! This is a 45cm x 45cm x 45cm exo-terra viv!

Cheers

Andy


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Is that water running straight into the soil and then back into bottom?


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## povmichael123 (Aug 23, 2009)

That is awesome I am thinking of doing a little creek that runs from the top and down to the bottom into a small pond of some sort!


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

That is certainly big enough for a pair of pretty much any dart frog, or possibly a trio of smaller "group frogs".

If I were you, I'd look for a sexed pair. There is a large variety, so it leaves you plenty of room to pick and choose what you like.


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

HunterB said:


> Is that water running straight into the soil and then back into bottom?



If you look at the middle pics you will see a small blue plastic thing. That is a two inch deep plastic ring that I stuck directly onto the egg crate and then cut the black fabric out. I then filled it with gravel and packed the soil around the outside of it. The water therefore flows down the water fall and straight through the gravel back into the reservior underneath. The waterfall does 'leak' a little at the join between the two pieces of cork bark but that keeps the soil nicely damp without being too water logged. That moisture does drain back into the reservior eventually though! 



povmichael123 said:


> That is awesome I am thinking of doing a little creek that runs from the top and down to the bottom into a small pond of some sort!


Thank-you! Go for it! I was advised however that open water (i.e. a pond) is risky for dart frogs as they are poor swimmers and can drown?



yumpster said:


> That is certainly big enough for a pair of pretty much any dart frog, or possibly a trio of smaller "group frogs".
> 
> If I were you, I'd look for a sexed pair. There is a large variety, so it leaves you plenty of room to pick and choose what you like.


I was hoping for a trio (is the 'norm' to go for 1.2 or 2.1?). Could you recommend any good hardy begginers species?

Cheers for the comments!

Andy


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## Ken (Jun 21, 2009)

I like the way you integrated the ExoTerra background. That looks pretty cool.

The only concern I have would be it appears that there aren't many hiding places in there. I have a group of 4 young tincs in a 29G and they like to hide in the broms, under the larger/leafier plants, and in the shadows. Tincs are known as a bolder species too. Maybe once the foliage grows in a bit, or if you add a few more broms, it would be better. Just a thought 

Otherwise, I think it would be a fine set up for a group of D. Auratus.


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## HunterB (Apr 28, 2009)

Auratus would be good but I've always found them to be kinda shy
My tincs are somewhat shy but seem to be pretty bold as long as they kno there's hiding spots near by..


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

The common group frogs for beginners would be auratus, galactonotus, and leucomelas. In your tank, auratus or galactonotus would probably be the best fit since they are more terrestrial than leucomelas. There are many color variations of auratus to choose from, and they tend to be much cheaper than most other dart frogs. Despite what some people say, not all auratus are shy. I have a group of 4 that are always out and about. It all depends on how much human interaction they have. If you are around the vivarium enough, they will eventually realize you are not a threat to them and they won't run and hide.


A 2.1 or 1.2 group is completely up to you. Provided with enough space, they won't be aggressive towards each other.


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

Thank you so much for all your help guys!

I'm almost certainly going to go for auratus. As yet I'm undecided as to the morph. I have access to 'blue morph', 'El Cope' and 'nominat'. I'm also interested in _D. tinctorius azureus_. Would these be suitable or are they a less 'begineers' species.

Also could I rack your brains regarding lighting and heating? Currectly the exo-terra is at 'room temperature' (no auxillary heat source) and is lit by a 2.0UV exo-terra compact bulb.

Would you guys suggest another bulb? additional heat? a heat mat stuck to the bottom to heat the water.....?


Thanks again guys

Cheers

Andy


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## yumpster (May 22, 2009)

The problem with all tinctorius species is that they are aggressive towards frogs of the same sex if not provided with a large amount of space. In a tank your size, a 1.1 pair would be the most you should safely attempt. If kept 1.1, they are quite easy beginner frogs. 


Room temperature is fine in most cases. Mid 70s is the safest range for most darts. No additional heating will be required. You will actually spend more time trying to keep the temperatures down instead of trying to raise them. If temps jump 82+ degrees, then you will have to find a way to lower them a little to reduce risk of frogs dying due to being overheated.


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

Thanks so much for your help Yumpster - much appreciated!

auratus it is then! Would this be big enough for a trio or do you recommend I stick with a pair? In order to encourage breeding, is 1.2 or 2.1 better?

Sorry for all the questions but it will be a month or so before I actually buy the frogs so I really want to make sure I make the right decisions! 

I'm just tweeking the enclosure at the moment - I need to add a few more plants and hiding places (but not adding heat!) and I need to adjust the waterfall slightly as its leaking a little too much at the moment.

Thanks again for all your help

Cheers

Andy


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## boogsawaste (Jun 28, 2008)

Do you have anything covering up that screen top? 

Darts can cram into very tiny spaces so make sure there is no possible way for one to find it's way into your filter space towards the top.

As far as a trio, it is best to try and get a pair. If you must have 3 I would look for a 2.1 as females have been known to eat or stomp the eggs of other females.


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

Yeah - I've stuck a large strip of foam across the top of the filter access so that as the screen top is pushed down the foam makes a pretty good seal!

I've also siliconed the 'wire holes' closed! I hope I've covered everything but I guess that remains to be seen!

I also intend to put a sheet of perspex over the front half of the mesh lid to aid humidity!

Cheers

Andy


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## Ken (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm not familiar with perspex, what is it?

As far as the number of frogs, it seems common for most people to start off with a small group of un-sexed juvenile frogs (including me), then trade away the odd man/woman out after you have your pair. Of course, you shouldn't have any problem finding a sexed pair of auratus, if you don't mind paying a premium. You're a more experienced herp keeper than me (18 years vs 1 month  ), so maybe getting a sexed pair makes more sense for you.

So, now that you've settled on a species, have you decided which morph?


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

Ken said:


> I'm not familiar with perspex, what is it?
> 
> As far as the number of frogs, it seems common for most people to start off with a small group of un-sexed juvenile frogs (including me), then trade away the odd man/woman out after you have your pair. Of course, you shouldn't have any problem finding a sexed pair of auratus, if you don't mind paying a premium. You're a more experienced herp keeper than me (18 years vs 1 month  ), so maybe getting a sexed pair makes more sense for you.
> 
> So, now that you've settled on a species, have you decided which morph?


'Perspex' is a brand name for clear acrylic sheet (plastic glass?)..not sure what it's 'proper' name is - no idea what you guys would call it on your side of the pond! ....plexiglass?


I'll probably decide when the animals are actually in front of me! There is a show coming up in november that usually has a few darts for sale so I'll see what he has. (hoping for some 'El Cope', but would be just as happy with 'nominat').

Cheers

Andy


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## stemcellular (Jun 26, 2008)

Go with the El Cope from Dartfrog they are super bold. You can see a video of my group using the link below.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...44324-d-auratus-calling-enclosure-design.html


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## ggazonas (May 11, 2008)

yumpster said:


> The common group frogs for beginners would be auratus, galactonotus, and leucomelas. In your tank, auratus or galactonotus would probably be the best fit since they are more terrestrial than leucomelas. There are many color variations of auratus to choose from, and they tend to be much cheaper than most other dart frogs. Despite what some people say, not all auratus are shy. I have a group of 4 that are always out and about. It all depends on how much human interaction they have. If you are around the vivarium enough, they will eventually realize you are not a threat to them and they won't run and hide.
> 
> 
> A 2.1 or 1.2 group is completely up to you. Provided with enough space, they won't be aggressive towards each other.


I keep a couple differnet galact morphs; given something to climb they will climb extensively, just as much as any leuc, so you'll have to keep in mind that given a way to get up higher these terrestrial frogs will climb. In the wild any frog considered terrestrial will climb onto plants and small shrubs or trees, if you think about it the ground layer of the forest ranges from leaf to litter to small plants and trees; this entire area is inhabitated by these so called terrestrial frogs. So even a tinc or phyllobate will climb given a way to access a higher area in a viv. Just wnated to throw that out there when considering a species.

Also boldness has to due with how the viv is planted and setup. I have frogs that are considered very shy but I see them all the time, and yes this includes all my auratus I keep, which include, blue and bronze, green and bronze, ancon hill, costa rican, hawaiian, and turquise and bronze.


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## Elf_Ascetic (Jan 31, 2009)

Azureus should do fine. 

About Auratus, take the morph which appearance attracks you. The blue one has a reputation to be quite shy.


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## bothrops (Aug 29, 2009)

stemcellular said:


> Go with the El Cope from Dartfrog they are super bold. You can see a video of my group using the link below.
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...44324-d-auratus-calling-enclosure-design.html



Stunning frogs and a fascinating vid. I love the way they tap the middle toes on their back feet all the time!

Can't wait! Getting all excited now!


Cheers for all the other comments too - plenty to think about!

Cheers

Andy


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## Tran2la (Nov 6, 2009)

You did a great job.


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