# Can I use the arcadia deep heat projector?



## Rom (Apr 29, 2019)

I have an arcadia deep hear projector lying around. I think it's designed for reptiles but I have a grey tree frog and I was wondering if I could use it?

For those who don't know, deep heat projectors emit Infrared-A and B whereas most heat mats and ceramic bulbs only emit infrared C. Infrared A has a shorter wavelength, B has a mid wavelength, and C has a long wavelength. I remember from high school physics that shorter wavelengths penetrate the body better, and so infrared A&B are more 'bioavailable' according to arcadia's website.

A problem that I have is that I have a glass top to the enclosure to keep in humidity, however, it blocks out a lot of wavelengths. I've found one article that says infrared-A can travel through glass (here). Has anyone else used the deep heat projector? do they work on frogs and do they work through glass?


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

You dont have to keep a glass top on your gray tree frog to keep the humidity.

And actually you shouldnt.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Kmc said:


> You dont have to keep a glass top on your gray tree frog to keep the humidity.
> 
> And actually you shouldnt.


Well, it depends on the ambient RH of the room I guess, but generally speaking I would agree it is probably not needed - nor is a heat projector for any reason.


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## Rom (Apr 29, 2019)

Kmc said:


> You dont have to keep a glass top on your gray tree frog to keep the humidity.
> 
> And actually you shouldnt.





Chris S said:


> Well, it depends on the ambient RH of the room I guess, but generally speaking I would agree it is probably not needed - nor is a heat projector for any reason.


I live in a very dry cold area, especially in the winter. I have a little computer fan that comes on if the humidity gets too high. 

So yall really think frogs wouldn't benefit from Infrared-A, even if that's the kind of radiation they get in nature?? Surely we should mimic the natural environment


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Rom said:


> I live in a very dry cold area, especially in the winter. I have a little computer fan that comes on if the humidity gets too high.
> 
> So yall really think frogs wouldn't benefit from Infrared-A, even if that's the kind of radiation they get in nature?? Surely we should mimic the natural environment


What benefit does it provide a Grey Tree Frog in this setting?


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## Rom (Apr 29, 2019)

Chris S said:


> What benefit does it provide a Grey Tree Frog in this setting?


Well, similarly to reptiles, they're ectothermic? As I said, Infrared-a is utilised by wild reptiles because it gives them more bioavailable energy, as the wavelength is able to penetrate deeper into body cells. It's a wavelength you get directly from the sun, and not from warm rocks n stuff. Tree frogs especially probably get a lot fo exposer to the sun in the wild. I know reptiles tend to bask more than amphibians but Frogs need UVB in the wild to synthesis D3, which they get from sunlight. what if they utilise other wavelengths similarly to reptiles?

I wanted to know if anyone had tried frogs with a deep heat projector? I wonder if it would make them healthier, and more lively? it would make sense if it did...


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Rom said:


> Surely we should mimic the natural environment


No, we shouldn't. Doing so without first taking proven captive methods into mind-- and understanding why they work -- has resulted in many animal deaths among many species. It may sound like a good idea, but has been shown over and over not to be.

That is just a general comment on mimicking wild conditions. A cursory look at a trustworthy care sheet suggests that supplemental heating in winter isn't necessary (though I don't keep tree frogs and defer to the recommendations of experienced keepers):






Frog Forum - Gray Tree Frog Care and Breeding


terrarium gray water tadpoles food treefrog treefrogs species froglets feed



www.frogforum.net





Also: we should confirm that the species in question is _Hyla versicolor. _Common names are bad to start with, but are sometimes used differently in different countries.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Agreed. Trying to "mimic nature" without recognizing the way resources behave in a highly restricted closed system creates unhealthy and unescapable stress and hazard.

When we apply gear to provide needed environmental support, we always have to Buffer the impact they have. Its not a blind copy of labled principles. 

Chasing RH levels is a super common mistake, leading to stagnant living conditions for absolutely no proven reason. Gray tree frogs do not need to breathe humid air. They only need a morning and evening mist of all surfaces perhaps a few puffs in between and, i prefer, a small pool of replaceable dechlorinated water to seat in that is kept impeccably clean of waste and drowned insects and bacterial scum. A regular weekly scald and scrub. Very easy and not much to ask.

I live in a cold dry place as well. And at the risk of sounding like an old person or "power leveling" because i care about your frog, ive had many of those guys in my care. Ive even gotten them to eat thawed crickets dropped from above into a feeding bowl. Not saying thats necessary just reflects the feeding vigor of healthy, oxygenated gray treefrogs.

A little supplemented surface heat can be an enriching plus to their environment. I use cable or uth on a portion of the wall, or 2kitty corner on larger env. I also used uvb flourescent over same area. This creates an optional pocket of warmth that is accessed at will. It should never be a forced provision, with deficient cover/perch places throughout the environment.

Like most tree frogs, cork bark was invaluable to the set up of their living space


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

The arcadia heat projector uses flowery 'in the wild" rhetoric to explain the well known features of radiant heat.

Its probably a very good product if you had a collared lizard or uromastix. but is unnessary for your treefrog and, combined with restricted air exchange - falls into the Stressor to Frog Hazard territory.


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## Rom (Apr 29, 2019)

Yall please calm down about the humidity. There are two sealable 8cm holes at the top and bottom of his terrarium for ventilation. There is also a fan that I use if things get too hot or humid. I keep him at around 20-22C and use a thermostat. My ambient room temperature is about 14/15C right now which is a little too cold. I've done a lot of research and, although gray treefrogs can withstand low/large swings in temperature, more gradual changes are preferable. And my room does gradually get warmer in the summer, but never any hotter than 30C. He is healthy, happy, and I've had him for 4 years.

I know arcadia is a business and will try and sell you stuff. But I know for a fact know that reptiles utilise Infrared A, and I was just wondering if amphibians do too and if we should give it to them. If yall don't think they do, that's cool, but i would like to know how you know. A lot of assumptions are being made about how I keep my frog here. I really just wanted to talk about Infrared A.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Socratic Monologue said:


> A cursory look at a trustworthy care sheet suggests that supplemental heating in winter isn't necessary (though I don't keep tree frogs and defer to the recommendations of experienced keepers)


I don't keep treefrogs but like OP I'm based in the UK. Americans rarely understand how cold and dry houses in the UK tend to be in winter and I actually can't overstate how pronounced the difference is in many cases. This is a cultural and historical phenomenon and obviously there are exceptions to every rule but generally Americans forget that in the UK it's not uncommon for a totally regular residential building to be older than your entire country. 
Double glazing isn't nearly as common and it shouldn't come as a surprise that in a building which may be 800 years old, you don't tend to have great insulation. Or that in order to adequately heat it you end up stripping amost all moisture out of the air (of which there can be very little in winter her anyway).
I can confirm that in the majority of houses in the UK, and particularly Scotland, you would _absolutely_ need to provide supplemental heating to a grey tree frog in winter. Similarly we have totally different considerations when it comes to humidity and it is entirely possible that OP's use of a glass top is both necessary and appropriate. 
OP may well live in a centrally heatred and air condition modern building with double glazing and air humidifiers in which case this is irrelevant but in the UK the odds are that he doesn't.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Rom I'm not familiar with the arcadia deep heat product but I'd be concerned about it heating up the glass top to a point where contact could harm the frog. Can they be used with a dimming thermostat like other bulbs to provide only the amount of heat you need to bring things up to where the treefrog would be more comfortable?


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## Rom (Apr 29, 2019)

Louis said:


> I don't keep treefrogs but like OP I'm based in the UK. Americans rarely understand how cold and dry houses in the UK tend to be in winter and I actually can't overstate how pronounced the difference is in many cases. This is a cultural and historical phenomenon and obviously there are exceptions to every rule but generally Americans forget that in the UK it's not uncommon for a totally regular residential building to be older than your entire country.
> Double glazing isn't nearly as common and it shouldn't come as a surprise that in a building which may be 800 years old, you don't tend to have great insulation. Or that in order to adequately heat it you end up stripping amost all moisture out of the air (of which there can be very little in winter her anyway).
> I can confirm that in the majority of houses in the UK, and particularly Scotland, you would _absolutely_ need to provide supplemental heating to a grey tree frog in winter. Similarly we have totally different considerations when it comes to humidity and it is entirely possible that OP's use of a glass top is both necessary and appropriate.
> OP may well live in a centrally heatred and air condition modern building with double glazing and air humidifiers in which case this is irrelevant but in the UK the odds are that he doesn't.


I am indeed also from the UK! it's very cold and dry here atm. I live in a victorian house, and the heating just dries everything out.

I have a little heatmat stuck to the side atm, but I've warmed up the deep heat projector and it's not that hot, not like a mercury basking bulb or something. I've seen a lot of arboreal gecko keepers use it, it's not really something for desert animals. The dimming thermostat might be a good call, I have an on/off one atm.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Rom said:


> I am indeed also from the UK! it's very cold and dry here atm. I live in a victorian house and have designed by tank to handle both very dry and very humid outside conditions.


I totally get it. Most americans don't even have a passport so a lot of them just really don't understand that we basically live in cold but beautiful sandstone caves in a lot of the UK - or just how wild the seasonal variations in temperature and humidity can be indoors here.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

If its like a ceramic heat emitter it has use for any basking species. I liked C.E s because i could track them out with other lighting for my arboreals to graduate my temps in open env with significant screening and portions i wanted to keep seclusionary - and still be able to mist expansively.

Dont worry im "calm" about your humidity. I keep differently. That's all.

Uk difference in household noted, good to know that.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Although separate length light waves can be produced artificially, sunlight exposure is comprised of short to longer waves, i like to think of it as whole light.

Tree frogs are mostly cryptic baskers, exceptions are some frogs from highly irradiated areas like reed frogs and australian litoria and many water visiting ranids. 

There is no need for an augmented infrared for temperate tree frog body heat penetration imo.

Directing heat and light gear through glass instead of permeable as possible screen, has never been my thing at all, so i cant help you on that.

2 heat mats mindfully sized for the space (not just mats one has on hand) is a way i have created firm temp centred, graduating outwards warm zones in cold circumstances. Like basements, garage hobby, etc.

I just wanted to answer your question. Pain level at a 7 1/2 right at yhe moment so if i sound brusque it aint you


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

To chime in again:

Grey tree frogs are endemic to the area I live (Ontario, Canada). They are active, and breeding, in the Spring in 10+ degree Celsius ranges (sometimes cooler!), and are quite active in the 15-20 degree range. They are tolerant of a wide range of temperature and humidity changes and swings, including being able to deal with freezing temperatures. I wouldn't recommend mimicking freezing conditions for any reason though. I would suggest keeping humidity in a more manageable 40-60 range, with access to a clean water dish at all times. This allows the animal to determine when they need a drink! These aren't tropical Hyla! With that said, they exist in areas in the Southern U.S., so are able to cope with higher humidity levels in some areas as well, but in the wild, they are able to escape these by climbing higher, or lower, as needed in the tree canopy. In Ontario, they will often see spikes of 80+ humidity in the mornings, but these typically trail off to 40-50% (sometimes lower!) by afternoon.

Supplemental heat is not needed (in your scenario, the cooler temperatures are perfect) and captive Grey Tree frogs (assuming you are referring to the Hyla versicolor complex) won't need supplemental UVB if you are using proper supplements when feeding (every time), such as Repashy Calcium + or Dendrocare.

Hope this helps!


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

In captive environments i have found it 'better' that applied forces arent constantly negating each other in an ambient battle to achieve desired conditions. Often at the sacrifice of often under rated principles, like air exchange.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

I understand many declare the need for d3 can be accomplished thru dietary pathway, but by doing so you will not see them basking albeit cryptically and sometimes, more openly, as they will with it.

Its a normal behavior and another stimuli to provide as a life quality feature. When done right.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Chris S said:


> To chime in again:
> 
> Grey tree frogs are endemic to the area I live (Ontario, Canada). They are active, and breeding, in the Spring in 10+ degree Celsius ranges (sometimes cooler!), and are quite active in the 15-20 degree range.


I had no idea you could find them that far north! In fact, I think I was confusing grey tree frogs with cuban treefrogs both of which are sometimes available in the UK.
I still didn't realise you had treefrogs as far north as Ontario though. That's pretty cool, not many people even in the UK know this but we used to have a very small localised population of probably native Hyla arborea in Scotland from when Britain was still connected to continental Europe by land. Unfortunately they're long gone now due to pollution and habitat destruction.


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## Kmc (Jul 26, 2019)

Soften the above version up for me guys when u read it. My enthusiasm for the topic and not feelin great is surpassing my ability to write good and i seem to default to insufferable


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## Rom (Apr 29, 2019)

Louis said:


> I had no idea you could find them that far north! In fact, I think I was confusing grey tree frogs with cuban treefrogs both of which are sometimes available in the UK.
> I still didn't realise you had treefrogs as far north as Ontario though. That's pretty cool, not many people even in the UK know this but we used to have a very small localised population of probably native Hyla arborea in Scotland from when Britain was still connected to continental Europe by land. Unfortunately they're long gone now due to pollution and habitat destruction.


I actually keep Hyla arborea! captive bred ofc. I heard a rumour of a population in the new forest once, probs just stories though... 
Also i just noticed, Wikipedia says that the latin name for gray tree frogs is _Dryophytes versicolor. _They must have changed genus recently? 


Chris S said:


> To chime in again:
> 
> Grey tree frogs are endemic to the area I live (Ontario, Canada). They are active, and breeding, in the Spring in 10+ degree Celsius ranges (sometimes cooler!), and are quite active in the 15-20 degree range. They are tolerant of a wide range of temperature and humidity changes and swings, including being able to deal with freezing temperatures. I wouldn't recommend mimicking freezing conditions for any reason though. I would suggest keeping humidity in a more manageable 40-60 range, with access to a clean water dish at all times. This allows the animal to determine when they need a drink! These aren't tropical Hyla! With that said, they exist in areas in the Southern U.S., so are able to cope with higher humidity levels in some areas as well, but in the wild, they are able to escape these by climbing higher, or lower, as needed in the tree canopy. In Ontario, they will often see spikes of 80+ humidity in the mornings, but these typically trail off to 40-50% (sometimes lower!) by afternoon.
> 
> ...


It does help. I've tried lower temperatures before, and although I'm sure it's not harmful to keep them below 20C, I find bas does things like stop calling. 20 seems to be his favourite temp and he still feels the seasonal fluctuations that the UK gets. the tank is currently at about 60% humidity. He has a drip wall in there and a pond which helps keep it damp, but there's also a lot of ventilation (The glass doesn't get much condensation for example). 

I go on and off of UVB. He's had a bulb before. He's currently getting D3 supplements. I haven't noticed much difference, to be honest. I promise I'm not one of those people who think everything natural is automatically better. Just wanted to make sure we weren't missing out on something here.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Kmc said:


> Soften the above version up for me guys when u read it. My enthusiasm for the topic and not feelin great is surpassing my ability to write good and i seem to default to insufferable


I don't know who has made you second guess the way you communicate on here KMC, maybe it's just the talk of scaring off newbies recently, but I for one appreciate your concise and matter of fact style and obviously very sincere concern for animal welfare above all else. 
You've mentioned suffering some physical pain recently and I hope that it's not getting you down.


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## Louis (Apr 23, 2014)

Rom said:


> I actually keep Hyla arborea! captive bred ofc. I heard a rumour of a population in the new forest once, probs just stories though...


They're beautiful animals, I'm quite tempted to try and keep some outdoors in my polytunnel but I don't think I could never make it escape proof. There are actually even today several small colonies in the wild in the UK, it's just a question of how long they may have been here. There are multiple 17th century historical sources referring to their presence in the UK and I can personally confirm that there were some breeding in Scotland as recently as 20 years ago although they are no longer present at the site in question.
you might find this interesting 
Some people think that some of the european pond turtles in England may in fact be a relict native population too but there are a lot of unauthorised 'reintroductions' in the UK that mean fairly extensive genetic analysis would be necessary to get a clearer picture of the status of some of these species.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Louis said:


> I had no idea you could find them that far north! In fact, I think I was confusing grey tree frogs with cuban treefrogs both of which are sometimes available in the UK.
> I still didn't realise you had treefrogs as far north as Ontario though. That's pretty cool, not many people even in the UK know this but we used to have a very small localised population of probably native Hyla arborea in Scotland from when Britain was still connected to continental Europe by land. Unfortunately they're long gone now due to pollution and habitat destruction.


They are mostly in the Southern part of Ontario, but do endure winters up here through the -40 degree mark with no issue!

We also have Spring Peepers which are in the Hylidae family (Pseudacris crucifer), and those exist as far North as James Bay throughout Ontario and Quebec. One hardy little tree frog.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Rom said:


> I actually keep Hyla arborea! captive bred ofc. I heard a rumour of a population in the new forest once, probs just stories though...
> Also i just noticed, Wikipedia says that the latin name for gray tree frogs is _Dryophytes versicolor. _They must have changed genus recently?


Dryophytes versicolor has been an accepted species name since 2016. It is sometimes treated as a "subgenus", but technically it is the actual genus now. Often the species is still referred to as the basionym, Hyla versicolor. Hyla is now used to specify Old World tree frogs and allies, and Dryophytes New World (and Asia I think). Hyla chrysosceli (Cope's Grey Tree frog) and their "complex" (Hybridization of the two, or overlap) was renamed in 2016 as well.

The NCBI taxonomy browser has them listed under Dryophytes, but I think both are still widely accepted, with Hyla still being the more common. Just about all published material refers to Hyla, but I imagine this will slowly change.


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