# Hole size for screen



## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

For those that have actually tested this out... what is the MAXIMUM size hole you can have in screen/mesh (thinking in terms of vents in the tank) that will reliably contain fruit flies and keep the tank FF proof? I have seen both 0.75mm holes and 1mm holes and would like to use the 1mm but am a little concerned that this might be big enough for them to slide right through. What are your experiences?


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## Entomologist210 (Apr 24, 2014)

In my experience the whole problem becomes moot if you feed just enough that the frogs get to the flies before they have a chance to make it to freedom. Though in the rare case that it happens, they always end up at my lights and fry.


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## serial hobbiest (Mar 5, 2017)

I don't know the answer to this, but I am curious as to why you'd want to maximize your screen-hole size.  

Why not just use some no-see-um mesh, and not worry about it? If it's passive ventilation you want to maximize, wouldn't making a wider vent be playing a little safer in terms of escapees?


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

sbreland said:


> For those that have actually tested this out... what is the MAXIMUM size hole you can have in screen/mesh (thinking in terms of vents in the tank) that will reliably contain fruit flies and keep the tank FF proof? I have seen both 0.75mm holes and 1mm holes and would like to use the 1mm but am a little concerned that this might be big enough for them to slide right through. What are your experiences?


Guys, I gotta say I'm all for this. A larger hole in the mesh, makes a very big difference in how much air can flow through. A very big difference. Remember, I've built thousands of screens in my career.

Serial, yes, you could simply put in a larger vent, if that's possible. Sometimes, you have to work with what you've got. Sometimes, it may not be feasible. Perhaps his screen was designed for the top, and blocking the light may be an issue. If it happens to be on the front of the viv, a bigger vent blocks more of your view.
As far as playing it safer goes, fabric no-see-um is much lighter duty, much more able to tear, and much more susceptible the UVB damage. 

Anyway, while I have not measured air flow, I have a pretty good idea how much air a screen blocks. I believe a looser mesh can double your airflow.
Further, your standard no-see-um mesh is not very well protected against UVB damage. Window screens are made with UV in mind, and should have a much longer lifespan than no-see-um mesh. Getting a 10 year lifespan out of a screen, is not a problem, and that is in full sun, rain, and wind. Viv conditions are much less severe.
Yes, stainless steel mesh would last even longer, but I've never seen it in the size mesh I like.

Sbreland, good question. Keep asking the right questions! The right questions help advance our hobby. Always strive for better. Good enough should never be good enough. Refusing to accept, "good enough", is what brought our hobby to where it is today. Once we accept, "good enough", then our hobby begins stagnating. If my peers, the people that taught me frogging, had accepted "good enough", vents would be more expensive, and rare. They would still be dropping to spindly leg syndrome. We'd still be losing frogs to Sticky Tongue Syndrome, formerly thought to be Short Tongue Syndrome. Obligates would still be the stuff of legends, with very few having any success at all.

The screen mesh that I currently use, and that I used on all my vivs when I was much more involved with the hobby, is this.
Super Screen Tiny Mesh 20 x 20.
I always got mine through Metro Screenworks out of Denver, CO. They do sell through Amazon, but only have large rolls listed right now. If you contact them directly, they should be able to help you with the smallest roll they carry. They do sell direct to the public, and they do ship. I have no idea what their minimum order is.

The first picture is industry standard screen mesh. The second picture is what I use, Super Screen Tiny Mesh 20 x 20.

I leave you with a final note about how appropriate I find this mesh for our specific uses. If I could manufacture my own, with any size mesh hole that I wanted, I wouldn't change a thing. My choice would be 20 x 20. It's the perfect size to keep back a fruit fly, while letting the maximum amount of air through.

When I screen my fans, I want airflow, airflow, and airflow. I really don't care if a few flies get chopped now and then. I use standard, full flow, fiberglass window screen for fans, and that *still* cuts your flow down by more than half.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

The same company also offers the same size mesh in the "Betterview" line. Avoid this one!! It has anti microbials embedded in it. Plus, it has a smaller diameter wire, which essentially makes the hole a bigger size, even though it is 20 x 20 mesh.
Do NOT use the Betterview screen mesh!


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

Hey guys, 
Thanks Doug and all the rest. The reason I ask is because I am planning an application that does sort of limit the size of the vent in respects to "just enlarging the vent". It's kind of a Sherman vent, but different... will post about it when it gets done so others can see. I guess maybe I should have been a little clearer though... what I'm planning is a perforated metal sheet like these-
http://www.themeshcompany.com/produ...Grade---Perforated-Metal-Mesh-394.html#SID=86

In these particular things "size matters" (I know, that's what she said, lol) which is why I was wondering if anyone knew the right size. From what I've been looking at online I think the 1mm will work at holding back the flies... I think. This would give me maximal air flow while also still keeping flies in. 
For the record though, this is about my 10th or 11th or so year involved with frogs and viv building but haven't really ever custom made a viv wth this stuff, just "screen mesh" but want a better looking solution.


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## jgragg (Nov 23, 2009)

IMO Pumilio is right, air flow is a concern. 

Sbreland - look at this stat for your material:
Open Area	22.6% Open Area

That's pretty occluded. Pretty far from "maximal air flow" if that's of value to you.

Here's a link to an open area calculator for wire mesh:
Wire Cloth Calculators - Cleveland Wire Cloth

Assuming "20x20" was 20 openings to the inch, or each opening is .05", I input the Metro stuff's parameter values to the calculator.

Open area of the 20x20 is 62.99% 

Or almost triple that of the stamped metal. So to get the same airflow to your animals and plants that the 20x20 stuff would offer, I believe you'd need to ~triple the surface area of your stamped-metal vent. But see below - I may be _understating_ this a bit...you might need to ~ quadruple it.

Something to consider? Hope this is useful.

Perhaps Pumilio could confirm/refute the 20 openings per inch assumption I made. If my assumption is correct (I believe in his experience), then 0.05" (or 1.27 mm) will do the trick for you. Note though that his square holes (wire mesh) are going to have an area about 25% bigger than your round ones (stamped metal) - so perhaps you could get away with slightly larger round holes than 1.27mm. And thereby gain a bit on the open area stat, and not have to upsize your vent area so much.

Or you could find a nice-looking wire mesh? If that's not an oxymoron to you, ha ha.

cheers


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Yes, 20 holes per inch x 20 holes per inch.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

By the way, in the industry, the least obtrusive screen color is well known to be black mesh.
Sounds funny, I know, but you can see through black mesh better than gray, silver, or any funky custom colored mesh. Hold up a piece of gray by a piece of black and look through them. There is actually a very noticable difference.

If you start paying attention while driving through neighborhoods, you'll start to notice that gray screens are also more noticeable than black screens, from the street.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Pumilo said:


> Guys, I gotta say I'm all for this. A larger hole in the mesh, makes a very big difference in how much air can flow through. A very big difference. Remember, I've built thousands of screens in my career.
> 
> Serial, yes, you could simply put in a larger vent, if that's possible. Sometimes, you have to work with what you've got. Sometimes, it may not be feasible. Perhaps his screen was designed for the top, and blocking the light may be an issue. If it happens to be on the front of the viv, a bigger vent blocks more of your view.
> As far as playing it safer goes, fabric no-see-um is much lighter duty, much more able to tear, and much more susceptible the UVB damage.
> ...


I agree I was using an ac filter, but I need better flow. This is the best I found for flow and keeping flies at bay. Super screen sells by the ft and has a minimum $13.50 shipping. 
FF2598 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 36 Char 36" 1.80 
FF2599 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 48 Char 48" 2.40 
FF2597 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 60 Char 60" 3.00 
FF2600 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 72 Char 72" 3.60 
FF2602 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 84 Char 84" 4.20 
FF2603 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 96 Char 96" 4.80 
FF2605 17/20 Super Screen Fine Mesh - 108 Char 108" 5.40 

No see-um is $17 for a 36x84 roll for comparison.


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## Timbow (Aug 17, 2016)

Good info here! Now I want to replace the no-see um fabric I've been using. I can't seem to locate super screen in the 20x20 mesh. All I can find on the metro screen site is 16/14 and 17/20. I don't even see it listed on super screen's website??


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Timbow said:


> Good info here! Now I want to replace the no-see um fabric I've been using. I can't seem to locate super screen in the 20x20 mesh. All I can find on the metro screen site is 16/14 and 17/20. I don't even see it listed on super screen's website??
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Purchase Super Screen


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## Timbow (Aug 17, 2016)

S2G said:


> Purchase Super Screen




I still don't see 20/20 mesh. 


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

https://www.metroscreenworks.com/rolls-of-screen-all-types/no-see-um-screening-tiny-mesh/


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

They do sell smaller amounts, but not in every option. It's not their most common type. They may only do rolls of this one. They invite you to email and ask them.


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## sbreland (May 4, 2006)

jgragg said:


> IMO Pumilio is right, air flow is a concern.
> 
> Sbreland - look at this stat for your material:
> Open Area	22.6% Open Area
> ...


Hmm interesting stuff! I'm glad I decided to pose this question now cuz there seems to be a good bit of useful info here. I don't know if I can find a stamped mesh with a hole opening of about 1.25mm but even if I do it doesn't look like it will make much of a difference as the 2mm that place sells only has about a 29% open area value so not a significant increase. Guess I'm down to deciding if looks or function are more important... isn't that the case with sooooo many things, lol! Thanks all for the input and for the links to good screen!


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## Timbow (Aug 17, 2016)

For anyone looking for a cheaper place to buy the screen, I may have found a similar product that is available at Home Depot.

Saint-Gobain ADFORS 36 in. x 25 ft. Charcoal Fiberglass Small Insect Screen-FCS8499-M - The Home Depot

According to the manufacturer's website, this is a 20/20 mesh with 0.013 wire, which I believe is the same as what Doug posted. It may not be the same quality, but for $22/roll you could do a bunch of tops.


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## Timbow (Aug 17, 2016)

I bought a roll of it today and it is perfect. Since I now have 10 lifetimes supply I'm going to post some to the classifieds (cheap) so others don't have to buy an entire roll


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I gave away something like 80 feet of 20 x 20 when I closed down Choice Window Services.


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Timbow said:


> I bought a roll of it today and it is perfect. Since I now have 10 lifetimes supply I'm going to post some to the classifieds (cheap) so others don't have to buy an entire roll
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'd be interested.


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## Timbow (Aug 17, 2016)

S2G said:


> I'd be interested.




It'll be posted as soon as a moderator approves it. 


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