# Why SLS?



## Pumiliantos (Jul 6, 2020)

Hello everyone! 
Im trying to find out why one of my baby come out with SLS.
It surprises me because in the same bromeliad, with the same conditions, 1 baby go out of wather without any problems, and the other… sls….

could i do something for improve?
Or… is because specific animal problem?

Relevant facts:

osmosis water (00)
Uv
terrarium size: 45x45x50

thank you in advance!


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

The use of pure RO water is probably why you experience this issue. Check out the links I provided.

I'd also recommend removing the UV lamp since this could cause other issues in the future.

Amfibian ark newsletter (Sls) : 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...YQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0hfUsi3Q0POy11CBLBNHuf[/URL]











(PDF) The relationship between spindly leg syndrome incidence and water composition, overfeeding, and diet in newly metamorphosed harlequin frogs (Atelopus spp.)


PDF | Spindly Leg Syndrome (SLS) is a persistent animal welfare issue associated with the rearing of amphibians in captivity. We conducted two... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Diet of the patents? What do you use to supplement and how often?


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Tijl said:


> The use of pure RO water is probably why you experience this issue. Check out the links I provided.


I don't necessarily agree with this, not in a vivarium setting anyway. Had the tadpoles been reared outside the vivarium, I would be more inclined to agree that pure RO or distilled water could have had an impact.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Tijl said:


> Amfibian ark newsletter (Sls) :
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...YQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0hfUsi3Q0POy11CBLBNHuf[/URL]


@Tijl , this link isn't working for me. Would you check it out, please?


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Socratic Monologue said:


> @Tijl , this link isn't working for me. Would you check it out, please?



Yea, something doesnt seem to work with that link.

It's the December 2020 edition of amphibian ark newsletter. So feel free to look it up on their website 😄


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Chris S said:


> I don't necessarily agree with this, not in a vivarium setting anyway. Had the tadpoles been reared outside the vivarium, I would be more inclined to agree that pure RO or distilled water could have had an impact.


I understand where you are comming from and feel free to disagree. However the lack of certain minerals are easy to occur, even in a vivarium setting. (This is what I think you are pointing out?)

The confirmation on why frogs 'develop' SLS has been proven in the studies, so you can't disgree with them. This is why I'm convinced the use of pure RO is the issue here..


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## Pumiliantos (Jul 6, 2020)

Tijl said:


> The use of pure RO water is probably why you experience this issue. Check out the links I provided.
> 
> I'd also recommend removing the UV lamp since this could cause other issues in the future.
> 
> ...


Then… my question is why only one was affected? They are on the same brom…


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Pumiliantos said:


> Then… my question is why only one was affected? They are on the same brom…


Quite easy answer , there werent enough minerals present in the water for all the froglets


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## Pumiliantos (Jul 6, 2020)

bulbophyllum said:


> Diet of the patents? What do you use to supplement and how often?


they have variate diet and good, handmade.
Month supplement: 

day 1 and 15: vit A repashy
day 8 and 22: superpig repashy
every day i dust droso with calcium dendrocare

last lay 2 frogs going out water, i really dont think diet or supp would be the problem.


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## Pumiliantos (Jul 6, 2020)

Tijl said:


> Quite easy answer , there werent enough minerals present in the water for all the froglets


I thought the minerals would be shared between the two…


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Pumiliantos said:


> I thought the minerals would be shared between the two…


One clearly developed issues


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Some other things as well:


Older frogs or over-bred frogs, despite supplementation, tend to sometimes start to have tadpoles/froglets that will develop SLS, have lower hatch rates from eggs and generally have weaker froglets.
Some frogs will favour egg feeding some tadpoles over others. I find in a clutch of three for example, one is always slower to develop. This could be because the tadpole is ignored by the parents (less obvious deposition site), does not "beg" as much as the other tadpoles (this could be a developmental problem, or could be exacerbated by mineral or vitamin deficiency in the parents to begin with).
New breeding pairs may not properly feed the tadpoles, leading to slower growth rates, tadpole mortality or growth deficiencies and mortality as froglets.
If it isn't overly common, I would say it isn't unheard of to have a weak froglet now and again.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pumiliantos said:


> Then… my question is why only one was affected? They are on the same brom…


Organisms are affected variably by nearly every harm.

Consider toxicity studies: at different doses, more or less test subjects die (it isn't entirely dose-dependent: some pack-a-day smokers get lung cancer, some don't). Consider pathogens: if 100 animals are exposed to disease X, some will die, some won't. Consider environmental stresses: in a heat event on a coral reef, some corals bleach and die, others bleach and recover, others aren't affected.

UVB exposure in tadpoles is associated with limb malformations (mentioned, for example, here -- follow the citations for more details). If UVB is used, it should be measured with a meter (this one), and substantial portions of the viv (for the adult frogs, and tad deposition sites) need to be provided so that the frogs can regulate their exposure, and that of their eggs and tads.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Chris S said:


> Some other things as well:
> 
> 
> Older frogs or over-bred frogs, despite supplementation, tend to sometimes start to have tadpoles/froglets that will develop SLS, have lower hatch rates from eggs and generally have weaker froglets.
> ...


True, these are possibilities the offspring suffers from one of the above.

However 'Spindy Leg Syndrom' is different from 'weak offspring' or other 'deformities' developed due to other issues.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Tijl said:


> True, these are possibilities the offspring suffers from one of the above.
> 
> However 'Spindy Leg Syndrom' is different from 'weak offspring' or other 'deformities' developed due to other issues.


In my own, limited experience, SLS can be one of the outcomes of any of the above. Speaking to some larger profile breeders, they also run into these problems especially with older breeding pairs/groups, which is why I mention that specifically.

I'm also looking at the images, and can't for certain say that SLS is the issue here. I can't rule it out either.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Chris S said:


> In my own, limited experience, SLS can be one of the outcomes of any of the above. Speaking to some larger profile breeders, they also run into these problems especially with older breeding pairs/groups, which is why I mention that specifically.
> 
> I'm also looking at the images, and can't for certain say that SLS is the issue here. I can't rule it out either.


SLS is the outcome of 'poor' water quality, not annything what you mentioned above. 

Your experience of issues or the experience by the larger breeders you refer to, are simply other issues/deformities than Spindy Leg Syndrom. 

Not saying the OP's froglet is suffering from SLS since I have no evidence for this. what you say could also be very true in this soeciffic case.

That beeing said IF the issue is truely SLS as the OP claims, you can almost be certain the use of the pure RO water is what causes that problem.


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Tijl said:


> SLS is the outcome of 'poor' water quality, not annything what you mentioned above.
> 
> Your experience of issues or the experience by the larger breeders you refer to, are simply other issues/deformities than Spindy Leg Syndrom.
> 
> ...


SLS is not caused by poor water quality. SLS is thought to be caused by a lack of absorbed calcium and other minerals needed to process/metabolize/use it, resulting in improper bone development.

The study you reference only indicates that it is not due to a lack of protein from diet. The study still had a 10% incidence of SLS even with re-constituted RO water, which means it is still possible to get SLS, but it did show that water with increased hardness did help reduce SLS significantly - or that the initial RO process actually removes some unknown element that is a key cause of SLS.

Let's just be careful about claiming what this article does or does not say - it is groundbreaking (or was), but far from definitive.

Here is the article:

The relationship between spindly leg syndrome incidence and water composition, overfeeding, and diet in newly metamorphosed harlequin frogs (Atelopus spp.)

I believe frogs that are lacking in proper nutrition and supplements can and will often lay eggs that lack the basic needs of the tadpoles (not to mention the initial eggs may be lacking the proper building blocks), and this is even more apparent when these frogs are egg feeders.

One of my sources for the "breeders" is Mark Pepper / Understory Enterprises, whom I have a lot of respect for.


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## Tijl (Feb 28, 2019)

Chris S said:


> SLS is not caused by poor water quality. SLS is thought to be caused by a lack of absorbed calcium and other minerals needed to process/metabolize/use it, resulting in improper bone development.
> 
> The study you reference only indicates that it is not due to a lack of protein from diet. The study still had a 10% incidence of SLS even with re-constituted RO water, which means it is still possible to get SLS, but it did show that water with increased hardness did help reduce SLS significantly - or that the initial RO process actually removes some unknown element that is a key cause of SLS.
> 
> ...


It's the same article as the 2nd one I posted above (the research gate one)

I agree for most what you say though so don't get me wrong. Your defenitly correct when it comes to the research beeing definitive and the proper health of the parents play a key role.

I believe it would be quite intereseting to also compare with the study on effects of cartenoids on oophaga.
(Pumilio that were carotenoid enhanced supplementation resulted producing larger clutches and more offspring than Pumilio that were exposed to a lesser rich dieet.)









(PDF) Carotenoid Supplementation Enhances Reproductive Success in Captive Strawberry Poison Frogs (Oophaga Pumilio)


PDF | Amphibians are currently experiencing the most severe declines in biodiversity of any vertebrate, and their requirements for successful... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## Pumiliantos (Jul 6, 2020)

Thank you so much to everyone, i thinking about remove the last ósmosis stage, (Si and PO4) and try, could be possible the influential elements, i dont know.
thank you again,i’ve learned a lot!
PD: how to identify if its sls or other problem?


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

Tijl said:


> It's the same article as the 2nd one I posted above (the research gate one)
> 
> I agree for most what you say though so don't get me wrong. Your defenitly correct when it comes to the research beeing definitive and the proper health of the parents play a key role.
> 
> ...


I agree, I think there are still a ton of unknowns here.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pumiliantos said:


> Thank you so much to everyone, i thinking about remove the last ósmosis stage, (Si and PO4) and try, could be possible the influential elements, i dont know.
> thank you again,i’ve learned a lot!
> PD: how to identify if its sls or other problem?


I'm not sure what kind of filtration you're running, exactly, but it sounds as if you have a postfilter for silicate and phosphate (some sort of aluminum oxide or ferric oxide media, perhaps?). If so, allowing PO4 to creep up while keeping the level of calcium static would be counterproductive. There are a few ways calcium metabolism can go awry, and one of them is an excess of phosphorus in relation to calcium (this is the main reason powdered supplements are important for captive herps -- correcting the Ca/P ratio in feeder insects).

If you're using a mixed bed DI resin as the postfilter, that scavenges all dissolved ions so bypassing it may be beneficial.


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## Pumiliantos (Jul 6, 2020)

Socratic Monologue said:


> I'm not sure what kind of filtration you're running, exactly, but it sounds as if you have a postfilter for silicate and phosphate (some sort of aluminum oxide or ferric oxide media, perhaps?). If so, allowing PO4 to creep up while keeping the level of calcium static would be counterproductive. There are a few ways calcium metabolism can go awry, and one of them is an excess of phosphorus in relation to calcium (this is the main reason powdered supplements are important for captive herps -- correcting the Ca/P ratio in feeder insects).
> 
> If you're using a mixed bed DI resin as the postfilter, that scavenges all dissolved ions so bypassing it may be beneficial.


I use purolite mb400.
I think po4 water will be better in a little cc. removing last stage than rigth now with 0ppm.

here MiniBaldomero&Mango house


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Pumiliantos said:


> I use purolite mb400.


OK, a mixed bed DI resin -- removes all dissolved ions. Depending on the rejection rate of your membrane, bypassing that DI stage may leave more calcium in the water. It wouldn't on my system, as I have a 99% rejection rate with just the membrane, but it may on yours.

Alternatives would be to add some dechlorinated tap water to the RODI before use with the frogs, or (best, I think) reconstituting the RODI water before use with either plain calcium (calcium chloride? calcium sulfate? calcium gluconate? I'm not sure) or some preprepared product (Kent RO RIght, which is mostly chlorides, or Seachem Equilibrium which is mostly sulfates).


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## Chris S (Apr 12, 2016)

I've been using distilled water for 6 years in my tanks, and I have never had a froglet that was raised in the tank emerge with SLS - and actually, I've never had one emerge and not be extremely healthy. I can see using RO/DI being an issue if you have pulled tads, but in the tank? I just don't think it could really be the main cause.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

Chris S said:


> I've been using distilled water for 6 years in my tanks, and I have never had a froglet that was raised in the tank emerge with SLS - and actually, I've never had one emerge and not be extremely healthy. I can see using RO/DI being an issue if you have pulled tads, but in the tank? I just don't think it could really be the main cause.


Agreed. My tanks receive nothing but RO water and I don't have issues like this. I am a bit skeptical about the supplementation of the adults. Are you refrigerating the supplements? Are they more than 6 months old? I have used Dendrocare in the past but I now use all Repashy products (Calcium Plus would be the equivalent of Dendrocare). I have had good success with Repashy so I am sticking with that.

My understanding is that SLS is rarely an issue in the hobby anymore because the quality of supplementation increased since the 90s. The only time I ever hear SLS mentioned anymore is when the parents are not being supplemented correctly. This may not be in opposition to Tijl's article because the issue seems to be calcium uptake. If there is a supplementation issue (bad calcium in the supplement??) then maybe having water rich in calcium can mitigate the situation. If, however, there is bad supplementation AND a lack of calcium in the water, that might be when SLS is still a problem. Just speculation on my part, though.

Mark


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Also of note, the effect of calcium and RO water on developing tadpoles and frogs likely differs between species. Water pH and organics are big factors in calcium and phosphate balance, so the factors for one species might not hold true for others. 

For example, the common practice of adding almond leaves or tadpole tea to water lowers pH and adds tannines and other organics and can be lethal to frogs that normally develop in alkalic environments (like for example Mantella expectata).


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