# Mixing Morphs?



## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

I have been scouting for the right frog that meets my specifications.

1.Must be large enough to eat crickets(1/4"-3/4")

2.Good in large groups.(for 100gal)

3.will be ok with a water feature(no deeper then 1")

4. and of course PRICE!!!

I was recommended terribilis, vitatus, and azureus

I have seen a few comments of mixing species (negative) but want a reason to why or why not i can or can't mix morphs and the repercussions of doing so.

Ex: azureus (Hawaiian phase) with Azureus(normal)
or terribilis (orange phase)with terribilis(mint)
etc....

I would like to here some more thought in the best suitor. and suggestions for tank design


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## Buddysfrogs (Mar 29, 2012)

You have no idea what you just started. Let the can of worms be opened!
Buddy


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

Buddysfrogs said:


> You have no idea what you just opened. Let the can of worms be opened!
> Buddy


I know but it must be brought up in discussion or else ill never have an answer.


*P.S. Keep fighting to a minimum with the exception of a gentleman's arguement*


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## jdart16 (Jun 5, 2008)

Here is a thread that I feel should answer all of the questions or any others that you feel were not answers in your other thread.

(I guess the link is more in reference to species rather than locals but the info is good and can be applied here)
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66762-multispecies-reference-page.html

Also something of note, there are no "hawaiian" azureus rather "hawaiian" auratus.


Justin


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## ndame88 (Sep 24, 2010)

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE I beg you, for the sanity of all of mankind, do a search, there are at least 50 threads on this with everything you need to know about mixing, if you read them all and still feel you do not have the answer, then ask away.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

oneshot said:


> All the needed info for all your questions was in your other thread.


yes but not mixing morphs plus i didnt think it would hurt to repost it on here


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## oneshot (Mar 5, 2010)

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/88606-new-forum-not-frogs-few-s.html


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

One word. DON'T. For the sake of sanity (yours, ours, your dog's...everyone's!)...don't mix species/morphs.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

oneshot said:


> All the needed info for all your questions was in your other thread.


yes but not mixing morphs plus i didnt think it would hurt to repost it on here


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

stephen-mcginn said:


> I know but it must be brought up in discussion or else ill never have an answer.
> 
> 
> *P.S. Keep fighting to a minimum with the exception of a gentleman's arguement*


Not true. It is brought up all the time. It doesn't take much effort to find an awful lot of posts on here regarding the exact same question you just asked. You will not get a different answer and It's not hidden so do a little research. I believe there is even a post titled "why not to mix". I believe you were referring to D.Auratus not D.Azureus as D. Auratus has the only hawaiian morph I know of. Seriously though save the rest of us and do a real search, I know you haven't because you asked the same generic question. I asked it when I first joined here. When you find it you should copy and paste the answer below. That way we know you are helping yourself and we can guide you further and maybe get more specific. Help us help you. I will be waiting for your answer to your own question. 


FYI P. Terribilis does great in groups, as does D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, and E. anthonyi. D. Azureus is in general not really regarded as a group frog. The above frogs come in every color under the sun. Choose a morph and stick with it. You will find out soon right?


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

i did not realize mixing morphs is basically the same as mixing species....


Thats all i need!!


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## Tinctoc (Sep 15, 2012)

stephen-mcginn said:


> i did not realize mixing morphs is basically the same as mixing species....
> 
> 
> Thats all i need!!


For the sake of arguement, yes. Basically by mixing morphs which could potentially result in 'cross-outs' you would be creating a form that would not exist naturally due to crossing out forms that simply do not encounter each other in their natural habitats.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

eyeviper said:


> Not true. It is brought up all the time. It doesn't take much effort to find an awful lot of posts on here regarding the exact same question you just asked. You will not get a different answer and It's not hidden so do a little research. I believe there is even a post titled "why not to mix". I believe you were referring to D.Auratus not D.Azureus as D. Auratus has the only hawaiian morph I know of. Seriously though save the rest of us and do a real search, I know you haven't because you asked the same generic question. I asked it when I first joined here. When you find it you should copy and paste the answer below. That way we know you are helping yourself and we can guide you further and maybe get more specific. Help us help you. I will be waiting for your answer to your own question.
> 
> 
> FYI P. Terribilis does great in groups, as does D. Leucomelas, D. Auratus, and E. anthonyi. D. Azureus is in general not really regarded as a group frog. The above frogs come in every color under the sun. Choose a morph and stick with it. You will find out soon right?


The mixing of morphs/lines is not about color variations. These are separate populations of frogs. There will be color variations between even the closest of relations. Color cannot be used to determine the line or morph of the frog. That's why it is so important to keep them separate from the start or the line is lost. They cannot be separated again by color. Crossbred frogs cannot be separated back to their original line/morphs, ever. 

thanks one shot for link

my problem with my searches was that they were saying species more than bloodline or morph. Which is confusing when I was thinking species and morph two separate things.


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

stephen-mcginn said:


> yes but not mixing morphs plus i didnt think it would hurt to repost it on here


If you can't seem to find any posts on the topic, let me do the work and google it for you:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=...ddd4d3a7c90dfa&bpcl=39580677&biw=1366&bih=586

Being the AMAZING search engine that it is --using algorithms that are akin to sorcery (it must use some arcane runes indeed)-- google managed to find about 1,460 results in 0.24 seconds; all inside this forum.

If you cannot find a single reason in all those fourteen hundred pages that will convince you, then there is no "gentleman's" argument to be had. There is nothing new to be said that has not been said in all those pages. If those threads do not convince you, then you surely will not be convinced in this thread either.

Also, you might not be aware of this site feature, but when you click to start a new thread and you enter in the title, the site gives a suggestion "Here are the similar threads we found:" with other threads that had been previously posted about the same subject. You should have gotten 5 threads about the same exact issue that you are posting about now. Here is the longest thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/85165-ideology-behind-not-mixing-morphs.html
I encourage you, dear gentleman, to read through it.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

Tinctoc said:


> For the sake of arguement, yes. Basically by mixing morphs which could potentially result in 'cross-outs' you would be creating a form that would not exist naturally due to crossing out forms that simply do not encounter each other in their natural habitats.


so your saying if i (not planning) bred two separate morphs and created and unnatural morph not found in the wild that is bad? 

Now im a bit lost with this, so correct me where whats wrong but isn't ball pythons and boas and beardies and others bred to have unnatural color variations to meet the customers liking? Dart frogs that are bred for captivity life
never are released into the wild so why is it a bad thing to make new morphs to where people have never seen? tell me the harm in a calm and respectful manner.

I am trying to state this in a respectful manner


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

It isn't a good subject. People do *not* stay calm and respectful.

It is different from the Python and other hobbies, because *we *are different.

We prefer natural lines based on localities. Once you start breeding for any other reason, it is very easy to loose the original frog type you started with.

And - some people have done this, and *promised* to not let the results out of their possession. But situations change, and sure enough - we find the frogs promised to never be in the market, on sale - often misidentified.

We prefer to not be like the Python market. "We" refers to a vast majority of us. Certainly not all of us, but a vast majority.

s


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

stephen-mcginn said:


> The mixing of morphs/lines is not about color variations. These are separate populations of frogs. There will be color variations between even the closest of relations. Color cannot be used to determine the line or morph of the frog. That's why it is so important to keep them separate from the start or the line is lost. They cannot be separated again by color. Crossbred frogs cannot be separated back to their original line/morphs, ever.
> 
> thanks one shot for link
> 
> my problem with my searches was that they were saying species more than bloodline or morph. Which is confusing when I was thinking species and morph two separate things.


I agree, this is a common pit fall with the species/ morph terminology. Essentially we treat each morph as its "own" frog. As you quoted above its very important to keep them separate. Many other reptiles in the hobby have been completely altered to the point it's hard to even know what a "normal" one is. Take ball pythons or leopard geckos as an example. The Dart frog hobby has a different motivation. Many of us tend to be more scientific in our hobby approach and enjoy each natural species for what they are and enjoy creating very natural enclosures to house them. We also seem to be more attuned to the destruction wild collection has on our frogs and environmental issues surrounding them. This makes each species and morph in our care that much more valuable and intriguing in our eyes. When you really see the history behind the frogs you care about and you see the lineage that comes with them you realize it's pretty cool to be a part of that and why the frog hobby really is a special one. Welcome to this awesome addiction and I hope you can see/ feel why we enjoy/ are freaking nuts! about keeping the lines separate. (It also means you have more reasons to have more frogs ). 

Shall we get back to helping you choose that right frog for your tank?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd actually prefer if you started a new thread for that.

I'd like to lock this one up if the Original Poster is satisfied with the outcome.

s


eyeviper said:


> ... Shall we get back to helping you choose that right frog for your tank?


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

stephen-mcginn said:


> I have seen a few comments of mixing species (negative) but want a reason to why or why not i can or can't mix morphs and the repercussions of doing so.
> 
> Ex: azureus (Hawaiian phase) with Azureus(normal)
> or terribilis (orange phase)with terribilis(mint)
> etc....


What the heck is a Hawaiian phase azureus???


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## eyeviper (May 23, 2006)

Scott said:


> I'd actually prefer if you started a new thread for that.
> 
> I'd like to lock this one up if the Original Poster is satisfied with the outcome.
> 
> s


Roger that.


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

hypostatic said:


> If you can't seem to find any posts on the topic, let me do the work and google it for you:
> https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=...ddd4d3a7c90dfa&bpcl=39580677&biw=1366&bih=586
> 
> Being the AMAZING search engine that it is --using algorithms that are akin to sorcery (it must use some arcane runes indeed)-- google managed to find about 1,460 results in 0.24 seconds; all inside this forum.
> ...


Your disrespectful comment was uncalled for nor necessary. Google is a untrusted search engine for trying to find dart frog info when compared to this site. I appreciate the link you posted though I did not see it in my search. ( possibly because how i typed the keywords)

HOWEVER:
I have a better understanding with reading this but still haven't grasped it as a whole. 

I believe that it is a matter of time until supply and demand win and breeders start breeding hybrids of various morphs.


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## patm (Mar 21, 2004)

And also, your exact question has been asked many times in the past (and recent past at that). This thread covers the question of mixing imitator morphs (locales).

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/88606-new-forum-not-frogs-few-s.html

And with the first reply in this thread, Wes has been so kind to link up a couple days worth of reading that will answer any related question you may still have.

Pat


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

And I, and many of us, think you are wrong.

Because those items won't be sold here - and we will not deal with people who hybridize.

s


stephen-mcginn said:


> ...
> 
> I believe that it is a matter of time until supply and demand win and breeders start breeding hybrids of various morphs.


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Speaking of reading up ... someone else was kind enough to already link that in this thread - before you did. 

s


patm said:


> And also, your exact question has been asked many times in the past (and recent past at that). This thread covers the question of mixing imitator morphs (locales).
> 
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/88606-new-forum-not-frogs-few-s.html
> 
> ...


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## stephen-mcginn (Sep 26, 2010)

Scott said:


> And I, and many of us, think you are wrong.
> 
> Because those items won't be sold here - and we will not deal with people who hybridize.
> 
> s


i am not supporting this scott, just was stating where it will possily lead....with that being said i appreciate the input and will be done with this thread as are many of others....thank you for your posts and with the promise of not hybridizing any of my future darts...I just wanted to get an answer that i could understand....different minds receive different thoughts from different answers.....


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

Glad to hear it.

It's not a fun subject to deal with, weekly it seems.

The only thing that seems to have any affect, on anyone - is the understanding that the "rest" of us will not have anything to do with someone who hybridizes frogs.

To give another example - many of us will have nothing to do with people who knowingly deal in smuggled frogs. Not quite as large of a majority as hybridizers, but it is the same idea. 

If/when you feel this subject has been covered to your needs - please let me know and I am going to close the topic then.

Thank you.

s


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## hypostatic (Apr 25, 2011)

stephen-mcginn said:


> Google is a untrusted search engine for trying to find dart frog info when compared to this site. I appreciate the link you posted though I did not see it in my search. ( possibly because how i typed the keywords)


My dear friend, google is smarter than you give it credit for! The link I provided used google as an engine to search WITHIN dendroboard, in order to find threads with the keywords that you search for. I have found google to do a much better job at finding results than the dendroboard search engine. You can do this for any site by typing this format into the search bar: "site:www.website.com keyword".


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