# anyone try epiweb yet?



## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

Im thinking of trying it as a background (bottom product in the url below) in one and just wondering if anyone has tried it and what they thought of it.

http://www.firstrays.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=EpiWeb&cart_id=2079162.15580


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## Darryl (Dec 2, 2005)

There are a couple of us here in the UK that are testing EPIWEB at the moment, so far ithe results look promising, but time will tell, as this is after all plastic product.

Plant seem to have no problem grfting their roots in Epiweb and where I have got moss growning on it, it is doing just fine. I would say that the moss takes a lot better to epiweb than it does to coco panel.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I just ordered some, but Ray is not going to be shipping until next Monday, so it will be a while before I see it. It isn’t cheap. A 20”X20” piece is $20, so doing a large background could be very expensive.


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## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

not cheap, but neither is tree fern panel. 15 x 23" is $23


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I’ll post pictures when I get mine. By the way, FirstRays Orchids is not on the vendor feedback so I’m not supposed to say anything about my experiences with them but I think that I can say that this is the fourth time I’ve ordered from Ray.


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## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

Thanks for the info.  Post some pictures please. I like the idea that it stands up longer than 5 years. With that fact it makes it less expensive than all the other types of backgrounds.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2006)

wait! Fomo and great stuff don't last longer that 5 years!!!! Say it ain't so!!(Seriously asking here!).


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## Jeff R (Jul 1, 2005)

Wait, treefern root isn't _that_ expensive, calwest has 6" X 24" Tree Fern Plaque - 10 Pack for 43.85 and a few bucks more for the next size up. Is there something I'm missing cause it seems like treefern panels are good backgrounds?


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

i am going to give it a try as soon as my "conection " gets some. still don't know how much it will be.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

I would doubt many people will keep a tank the same for 5 years, but I can vouch for cork bark holding up very well for 5 years. Now I doubt great stuff hits the 5 year mark and then instantly breaks down. You can always build a background out of carved up Styrofoam panels and then cover it with silicone and coco bedding. That should last for a good long time, or look into epoxy.

I think something we are all missing is epoxy, I keep saying I need to try it.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

My thoughts on epoxy: the resin is sticky as all hell and can only be removed with Goof Off. I got the resin in my hair on two different occasions. Goof Off gives a nice chemical burn. Once mixed, the componenets of the epoxy I used are a little on the thin side (which can be remidied by adding a thickener). I really like the flexibilty it yeilds with being able to be combined with a myriad of other components (fiberglass, carbon fiber, wood...). You can also buy pigments for epoxy to color it, huge bonus IMO. I did a test on one of my plywood tanks today to see if it would hold water overnight and it passed with flying colors. Two coats of epoxy on the bottom and one on the sides, and a solid layer on the corners to seal up any seams and it's water tight. So far I can say is holds incredibly well to PVC and I hope to test it on some other plastics before I finish this project. 

Kyle, I'm sure I'll have some extra if you're interested in trying it out. 

I don't understand where people are getting the idea that GS is going to break down. It's polyurethane, a plastic. Plastics do not break down. It's a closed cell foam that reacts to UV by changing colors. Colsed cell means it can't absorb water. Exposure to UV doesn't change its mechanical properties. polyurethane.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2006)

defaced said:


> I don't understand where people are getting the idea that GS is going to break down. It's polyurethane, a plastic. Plastics do not break down. It's a closed cell foam that reacts to UV by changing colors. Colsed cell means it can't absorb water. Exposure to UV doesn't change its mechanical properties. polyurethane.


Thanks, thats conforting.
Now, what does this epoxy look like when you are working with it? Any pics?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Like clear honey. Same consistecy and everything. I'll try to get some pics this weekend.


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## Guest (Jun 24, 2006)

Cool, and how long does it take to harden?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

12 hours to be noticibly hard, but I don't remember what the mfg's cure time is off hand. When it hardens, it's rock hard. Have you seen those wood clocks that are super shiny and look like they're encased in a thick layer of plastic? That is what this epoxy looks like. Mine you though, there are a number of different kinds of epoxy so not all of them are going to be like this.


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## R-P_Jay (Apr 27, 2006)

there's also various epoxy that are thicker and can be sculpted and formed such has zoopoxies


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I received my epiweb today. The stuff feels and looks like a giant black Scotchbrite pad. I imagine that it will work fine. The one question that I have, is that it feels abrasive instead of soft (like wet tree fern does), so I wonder if the frogs will like to climb on it or not? We will see  .


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## summitwynds (Jan 22, 2006)

Let me know how it works out. How will you attach Broms to it? Another question I have is can you silicone wood to it? I am planning on siliconing it to the back wall, but I also have this piece of wood I would like to put on the back wall as a ledge. Just wondering if I can silicone the wood onto the epiweb (which will be siliconed to the back wall) or do I need to silicone the wood to the back wall then cut the epi to fit. Im hoping I can silicone the wood to the epiweb


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

this epi web is sort of a replacement for the use of coco fiber from what i seen of it. so how ever you would attach to coco fiber you would attach to the epi web


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

defaced said:


> I don't understand where people are getting the idea that GS is going to break down. It's polyurethane, a plastic. Plastics do not break down. It's a closed cell foam that reacts to UV by changing colors. Colsed cell means it can't absorb water. Exposure to UV doesn't change its mechanical properties. polyurethane.


I disagree, leave some GS exposed outdoors in the elements, and see what happens.
My roof rack that carries my Kayaks etc. had hollow tubes that would howl like crazy if the wind hit them just right...I put some GS in to plug the ends, and within one season, the foam was crumblier than a 5 year old corn puff!
Just had to mention that...
Back to the main topic...


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Epiweb is supposed to be a synthetic tree fern panel. I’m going to silicone it to the back wall of my 25 gallon. I will have to cut it, and use the cut piece to cover what is left of the back wall. It is about 20” by 20” by ¾”, so I can’t cover the back of my 25 with one piece. This stuff is much more flexible than tree fern panel so I would not silicone wood to it. As far as attaching broms goes, the usual methods should work. 

Mike, I would think that the coco fiber that we silicone to the foam will eventually degrade to the point where the silicone is visible. Epiweb is supposed to be very stable so it should last longer than tree fern panels, or cocos panels. Time will tell.

It wouldn’t surprise me if 3m made something very similar to this stuff. It really is very similar to a thick Scotch-brite pad.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

you are right about it replacing the tree fern.i guess my comment on it replacing the coco fiber is it looks to me just like the coco fiber. my mistake. didnt do my research before i commented.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

re: great stuff, the non black kind does break down when exposed to elements (UV) in my experience. It becomes very brittle, flaky, and dusty. I have to replace at least a bit every year on my house where it is used to fill gaps around electrical, etc.

On the epoxy: Mike, you should have let me know! You could have used some of what I had left of the West Coast. I have at LEAST a gallon left! Also, it is water soluble until cured, so no goof off here, just good pumace hand soap. Also, it has almost zero odor. Less than even that concrete binder. Other than how time consuming it is compared to other background materials, I think it wins hands down from my limited experience.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Here is a not so great shot of the stuff.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

That looks suspicisiously like a pad for a floor buffer or sander. hmm....I wonder.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Good call, that's exactly what it looks like. I've not looked at a floor buffer pad in a long time but I remember them being a synthetic of some kind.

John, yea I knew you had some, but I didn't know how much I'd need and didn't want to use all of yours. I ended up going through a little less than a gallon on my tanks. After having to use the Black Death (Goof Off) remove this stuff, being water soluable sounds like it could be worth the difference in price.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

yeah, clean up was a big plus. I'd love to see that setup when you're done.

Anyone know anything about the buffer pads? Don't imagine you can get an MDS on those... Every Lowes has them in the tool rental section for buffers and sanders.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Product (randomly chosen from 3M website so I'm sure there are others that may be better on there) Link
Material: Non-Woven Nylon/Polyester Fiber
Link of Interest? Right Click-Save As, this is a PDF


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Interesting. The ones that I've used were a bit different, they make some that are for the rectangular floor sanders that go between the steel plate on the bottom of the machine and the sandpaper.

I'm not 100% on the size of the ones I used, but I would guess 12"x24". here's a link to some I found on google: http://www.arizonatools.com/tools/nylon-and-saitscreen-floor-pads/detail/UA86124/

I wonder how one could go about finding out if these are inert, or possibly have some contaminant that would exclude it from our use? Any chemists out there??


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

That they withstand floor cleaning chemicals points toward them being inert. I saw some different sizes of this stuff, including a roll that was 15ft x 18". If there were a way to find out what adheasive they use to hold the pad together that would be a good piece of information, but for me, knowing that they don't breakdown under their intended use, would be enough for me to try them out in a tank.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Do the cleaning pads absorb water.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Good ?, not sure. I've used the "cleaning" ones rarely, and I dont' believe they do, at least not noticably. I used those type of pads to strip/wax a commercial floor. The rectangular ones I used as a pad btwn a sander and a sanding pad, so there was no exposure to moisture.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

Oh ok, becuase i guess thats the deciding factor if itll work anything like epiweb, although im sure there are many more along with it.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I just ordered a second piece of Epi-Web the other day. I’m ordering the glass for that tank today. It still has to be drilled out (next week???). Maybe I can have the whole thing put together by next Friday. If so, I’ll report back on how it looks and works.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

> Do the cleaning pads absorb water.


That depends on what you're interested in. Does the material the cleaning pads are made of absorb water, or does the matrix that material make absorb water? The pads are plastic, so the material doesn't, but the matrix of the pad might allow it to. Kinda like a green scratch pad. It's a polymer of sort, but because the fibers are so close together they can hold water between them.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Hey Grassy, if you ever happen upon a Lowes that has tool rental, maybe you could do us all a favor and stop by to check out the pads that you buy when you rent a floor sander. They'll have the pads, and multiple grades of sandpaper for hardwood floor refinishing. Let me/us know what you think of those pads versus the epiweb. I'm sure they're differnt, but just wondering what your take would be upon first hand viewing of both items. Just a thought....

Defaced, might be a worthy experiment. I can't imagine there would be anything toxic in these pads. If nothing else, they're used in an application where any toxic materials would likely be sent airborne as tiny particles, so I would assume they would avoid that in manufacture. Personally, I think it's worth consideration if epiweb is all it's cracked up to be. Those pads could cover a 20H aquarium easy for $5.00 and could be installed w/minimal fuss in less than it took me to type this post.



Grassypeak said:


> I just ordered a second piece of Epi-Web the other day. I’m ordering the glass for that tank today. It still has to be drilled out (next week???). Maybe I can have the whole thing put together by next Friday. If so, I’ll report back on how it looks and works.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

anyoen cehck out those pads yet/


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Anyone have any photos of this stuff in use? I'm considering buying some perhaps to cut it and use it to fill gaps and blank spots between cork bark panels. Thing is that used in that manner I won't use a 20 by 20 square and the 10 by 10 seems too expensive and might not be enough.

Also anyone experiment with the cleaning pads?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I still haven’t finished my viv yet. I’ll post pictures when I get the backgrounds in.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

Chris,

Any chance if you have scraps left over you might send a scrap or too to someone for a comparison? Just a thought...

J


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Sounds doable who wants it?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

If John doesn't want any I'll take a piece. 

John, you interested in doing an evaluation of this stuff and the floor pads with me and putting it up on my site?


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

I’m not sure how much will be left over when I’m done. I think there should be some though. So far I have two requests (Mike and someone else). When I go out to the fish room later I’ll take a good look and see how much will be left over.


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

On a similar note would anyone want to split a 20 x 20 square?


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)

defaced said:


> If John doesn't want any I'll take a piece.
> 
> John, you interested in doing an evaluation of this stuff and the floor pads with me and putting it up on my site?


Sure Mike, let me know if/how I can help. Glad to offer any services I can. 

Thanks Chris too!


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## Rain_Frog (Apr 27, 2004)

somebody mention epoxy? If you look back, I posted an article from West System how to mix it for tanks that would contain drinking water.

Epoxy is awesome when it cures (you need to keep it warm for six hours or more and then wait two weeks) but it is very messy and off gasses toxic fumes. You also have to do multiple coats which can be a problem too, as epoxy does not stick well to itself unless you scruff it up a bit.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

That only applies to that particular epoxy, each one is different. The marine epoxy I used for my plywood tanks was completely cured in 24 hours, needed no heat, generated no heat, and hardly had any odor. Didn't have any problems sticking to itself between coats without sanding.


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## Ryan (Feb 18, 2004)

BUMP


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Unfortunately I broke the tank while I was drilling it! Out of 15 or so tanks that I’ve drilled (some with several holes) that is the first tank that I have cracked. I was rushing to get the hole done and I somehow managed to get the hole saw to bind up. I’ve replaced the tank but I haven’t started working on it yet. In the mean time I’ve started working on a 55 for my trivs. This means that the Epi-Web tank will be on hold for a while. I’ll definitely post pictures when I get it started again.


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## SLEDDER23 (Mar 17, 2005)




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## Frogger 415 (May 28, 2006)

Does the black Handi foam that they sell for ponds break down from the humidity ?


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Not that anyone's reported. It's a common alternative to GS. Doing a search on it will turn up more specifics.


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## pa.walt (Feb 16, 2004)

*epiweb tank pics*

http://www.kwekerijrana.nl/EpiwebEN.html
they have pics of the stuff in thier tanks..


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## Frogger 415 (May 28, 2006)

I think I'll give it a try , so I don't have to silicone the glass . If it ends up with to many air pockets that are visable , I'll mask and spray paint the outside black . I've done this many times on my reef tanks and my customers tanks .


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## SAFrogGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

*Long Term Stability*

I noticed on the epiweb that it is made of recycled polyethylene terephthalate, the same stuff that most plastic water, juice, milk, soft drinks, household cleaners, etc is made out of. It is used in so many different things because it is very stable. If you turn over a household plastic container, and it has the number 1 recycle code on it, it is PET.
I also noticed that the glass transition temperature of PET is around 70 degrees C, and the melting point is 212 degrees C or so. Now this doesn't always work, but this means that if you put it in boiling water, and then take it out (with some sort of hand protection of course), and quickly push it into a different shape and hold it there, it should cool down and harden into that shape. Now due to the matrix structure, it may not be perfect, but if any of you wanted to put some bumps into it or something, I imagine this would work.
As far as the leaching of something bad for frogs, this should not be a problem at all unless they really manufacture it incorrectly. Most of the monomer should be reacted, and any that isn't should be trapped inside the polymer. In reality, I imagine this will last a very long time: probably much longer than 5 years (which is why you should always recycle and not throw this stuff into landfills where it lasts for a longtime).

Don't know if any of that helps... Now that being said, I guess I should probably order some and try it out also.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Do you think 100C would be enough to get the individual fibers to fuse together, or would it just form them into the general shape you wanted but all of the fibers would be seperate?


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## SAFrogGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

*Molding*

Well, as long as you are above the glass transition temperature and below the melting, you will be able to shape it, but the individual fibers will not melt together. Putting it in boiling water would likely be between those temps, and would allow molding. If you do this though, don't let the plastic touch the metal of your pot: I guess it is possible that the pot could be hotter locally than the water, and if it was above the melting temp of the plastic, your plastic might melt to it. But at 100 degrees celcius, the actual fibers that make up the material will not melt together, they will just become a little bendable and then hold some of whatever shape they are in as they cool.

This is the same thing that happens when you iron clothes or if you are a girl, straigthen or curl your hair (fabrics and hair both have glass transition temps). Basically, when you heat the hair or fabric above its glass temperature, then hold it flat or curly as you cool it, it will take on that shape. Each polymer has a different glass transition temperature, which is why the iron has several settings. You do have to be careful though, as a really hot iron could be higher than the melting temperature of certain fabrics (I think synthetic fleece is one that melts at a low temp), and so you can melt them.

Anyway, this is a rambling post, but all that being said, if the stuff is really PET as it is listed in the website of the first post, then boiling water will not melt it, but will let you mold it. One last thing to keep in mind is that the material may cool very quickly out of the water due to the high porosity, so you might even have to shape it in the boiling water and then take it out in that shape and let it cool.

All of what I am saying is based on the theoreitcal science stuff, but should work. As soon as I get some, I will try it and let you guys know. If anyone in the meantime has success trying this, we'd love to know. Just keep in mind that it is flexible at room temp due to the composition of many small fibers, so any shape change you do get will also be flexible.


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## defaced (May 23, 2005)

Ok. I'm a welding engineering student so when I read your first post this first thing that came to mind was soild state bonding. I know it can be done with plastics but usually it's an ultrasonic or a radio wave process. Like with metals if one can break up the surface oxides and provide enough heat and force for the metal to exhibit some amount of plastic deformation, you can create a solid state bond. Since to the best of my knowledge, plastics don't have an equevalant to surface oxides, then providing enough force and heat to overcome the surface asperities would be enough to create bonding. 100C seemed a little low to me but wanted another opnion..


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## SAFrogGuy (Aug 24, 2006)

Polymers behave much differently than metals. You aren't really changing the bonding, rather just the bond angles of the linear polymer chains. In the material, these polymer chains are really long, but they are going all loopy, and then they are cross-bonded to other chains, creating what could best be described as a bunch of spaghetti. In this form, the material is quite stiff. When heated above a certain temperature (the glass transition temp), then the polymer cross-bonding will relax, and the spaghetti will "slide" more easily against each other. If you deform the bulk material when the chains are sliding, then let it cool, they will reform their cross-bonds and then stiffen again. I am by no means a polymer scientist, but I am in grad school in biomedical engineering, specifically in polymer biomaterials, and we use the above technique often which is why I am familiar with it. Most polymers have a glass transition temperature (Tg), and a melting temperature (Tm). Usually these two are separated by quite a distance. We use this technique of bending polymer all the time, and it is in fact something they are using to help create new resorbable stents. As I mentioned it before, every time you iron clothes, you are performing the same technique. You aren't actually going to bond the individual fibers you see in the web together: in fact, the goal is to preserve the matrix form and high porosity to allow plants to grow, etc. The only issue I see here is the actual architecture of the material (the webbed pattern), as there may be some residual stress after cooling that will pull it back into a flat sheet, but I imagine you could get at least some deformation.
The point is that if this is PET as they mention, then the Tg should be around 80 deg. C, so boiling water would be an easy way to get it above that temp without going too high. You can look up the glass transition temperature for any polymer, and get a similar effect when you deform it above this temp then cool it.


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## MartyA (Apr 18, 2006)

Im bumping this old thread.
I am very interested in this epiweb and have been considering it for awhile now. I was wondering if anyone has tried making any of these fake branches yet. Im not really interested in using epiweb as a background but would jump on the stuff if these branches were easily made... If anyone has made some of these branches, can they hold the weight of the plants? or do they require some support (PVC pipes inside or something)? Thanks

Ex's of branches and the websites they're taken from;
http://www.dartfrog.co.uk/epiweb/









Bah cant link other pics, heres the site scroll down;
http://www.epiweb.se/english.html


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

Those look like cat scratch posts!
I bet they would look cool after 6 months in a viv though.


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## aka_Welkin (Feb 25, 2007)

Another bump from me...

This post started about 6 months ago, Any pics of a viv grown in with it?
What's the verdict from you guys that have been using these? I definately like the idea.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Believe it or not, I still haven’t gotten around to building that viv. :roll:


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## VanillaGorilla (Mar 11, 2007)

12345678910


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## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

nobody has pics of this stuff being used?


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## allanschon (Mar 25, 2007)

You can check out the manufacturer's gallery.
http://www.epiweb.se/gallery.htm

I'm using it on my next viv. I'll post pics once it's grown in...


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## darkpilatus (May 25, 2006)

*3M pads*

I use these pads at work and a box of like four of them isnt cheap. I dont have exact numbers for them but my boss doesnt like them being used as much because of the price ill find out more... here is the link at 3M they are the brown doodlebug pads...
http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en00 ... utput_html


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## TKD (May 28, 2007)

I'm using it as part of my build.
I just siliconed it to the back part of my vivarium yesturday and it seems to be staying on.

I will be posting pics of it in my build thread:
http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=31851


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## sNApple (Mar 19, 2007)

EPIWEB + TAIWAN MOSS


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

*Re: 3M pads*



darkpilatus said:


> I use these pads at work and a box of like four of them isnt cheap. I dont have exact numbers for them but my boss doesnt like them being used as much because of the price ill find out more... here is the link at 3M they are the brown doodlebug pads...
> http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en00 ... utput_html


Yup used many of the nylon 3M products in my saltwater system (modified pump impeller for a skimmer), and they were safe. I'm sure they'd work in this application as well.


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## dawkinsj (Apr 17, 2006)

I have not tried it, but do currently use the black buffing pads that you can get in a Home Depot tool rental section. Cost me less than $6 per pad and they are made just about the same way as Epiweb is. Plants grow in it great and moss will cover the stuff if you keep the humidity high. It is much more readily available and is completely non toxic. I'd recommend it to anyone...also works great to get springtails established in the terrarium.


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## zaroba (Apr 8, 2006)

how long have these tanks been setup with the pads?
any signs of them breaking down at all?

i had heard of people using them, never tried myself though.


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## dawkinsj (Apr 17, 2006)

A few of my terrariums have had the pads in them for over a year. I have also broken down a few tanks and re-used the pads and they were completely in tact with no signs of breaking down. I have seen no adverse effect whatsoever in using them and they hold up like a champ....


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## HappyHippos1 (May 7, 2007)

I just got some of the brown doodle pads in today and am going to use them on my next viv. Bought on amazon for (what I think) fairly cheap. About $10 bucks a box of 5 pads. The pad just looks like a pad for floors, plastic and is fused together with some sort of glue. I hope it is non toxic.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

i have it on a few of my tanks and i am really not too happy with it, so i think i will just stick with fern panels from now on.


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