# Nemertean?



## Azriel

Please tell me this isn't a nemertean.

Video: Dendro :: f032.mp4 video by miss_cherry_blossom - Photobucket

Photos:



























Here is another one I saw, it's a lot smaller and slimmer than the other one though, so maybe not the same thing? But it could just be a smaller individual. 
Video: Dendro :: f039.mp4 video by miss_cherry_blossom - Photobucket


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## Lance

Sorry to say but yes that is a nemertean... Ive just tore down a tank due to these.


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## ladyfaile15

that is a nemertean, sorry


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## Azriel

Oh no! Well, it's not good, but I guess it's okay because I'll be tearing down this tank soon anyway. I do want to reuse the plants though, so I guess I'll just have to do my best to sterilize them. 

I have a _lot _of springtails in this tank. If I want to save some and culture them for the next tank, can I do that? Or will nemerteans inevitably tag along if I try to pull some springs? Maybe it's best to just buy a new culture of springs...


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## ladyfaile15

anything that you reuse will more than likely spread them to your new tank.. even the plants. 


jamie


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## james67

*Re: Nematode?*

im still a little confused here but as i understand it and as Ed kindly pointed out to me. nemertean is not at all what we're talking about here. nematodes (which i believe is what you have pictured) and nemerteans are completely different. its a misuse of terms perpetuated on this site by people (like myself) who improperly associated the two.

nemerteans

nematode

james


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## Azriel

I did a little reading up, and it seems you are right. There are a few plants that I really wanted to keep, but if it means not getting nemerteans in the new tank, then I guess I can throw them. If there's anything I can do to keep them though, please someone let me know. They are:
-grub fern
-dischidia ovata
-pleurothallis allenii + a keiki from it
-ludisia discolor 

Also I just got two nice orchids that were rather spendy... They are mounted to pieces of wood hanging over the edge of the tank by wire. They weren't touching the substrate, but they were leaning up against the glass, so I guess they could still be contaminated. _They were only in the tank for one day._ I wonder if there's any way I can save these? 

I have a computer fan in the tank I want to reuse too. It just occurred to me that I have already put it in my new tank without attempting to clean it or anything! :O Could that have transferred over any nemerteans? 

One more thing. Is this little guy a nemertean too, or just a nematode? It's way smaller than the nemertean I found, you can tell its size because it's next to a springtail in the video.
Dendro :: f001-1.mp4 video by miss_cherry_blossom - Photobucket

Sorry for the deluge of questions!


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## Azriel

*Re: Nematode?*



james67 said:


> im still a little confused here but as i understand it and as Ed kindly pointed out to me. nemertean is not at all what we're talking about here. nematodes (which i believe is what you have pictured) and nemerteans are completely different. its a misuse of terms perpetuated on this site by people (like myself) who improperly associated the two.
> 
> nemerteans
> 
> nematode
> 
> james


Sorry James, I posted my most recent comment before I saw your comment here. So, this just looks like a nematode to you? I sure hope you're right! And these nematodes don't kill the microfauna, right?


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## james67

what im saying is that as i understand it nemerteans are almost entirely comprised of sea dwelling animals, with only a dozen or so terrestrial species.

nematodes are the most numerous multicellular animals on earth. they exist in nearly every environment and that includes our vivs. the majority of these are not parasitic. 

now i may be wrong here but this is simply my take on it. ed can probably shed more light on the situation since he is the one that originally alerted me to my misuse of "nemertean"

james


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## frogface

It looks like what we've been referring to as nemerteans, here.


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## hypostatic

Looks like a nemertean. From my understanding they pose absolutely no risk for your frogs or eggs. In fact, your frogs will happily munch on them.

People don't seem to like them because 1) they're unsightly and crawl on the sides of the glass sometimes, and 2) they are predators that feed on the viv's microfauna.


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## Lance

In all honestly in a pum viv I can see these being a terrible problem for fresh froglets coming out of the water.


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## BR5

I purchased a pum tank along with frogs that had what looks like the same thing only larger, they looked like small red worms climbing on the plants looking for food. I was in shock the first time I saw them. The former owned is a Dr. of entomology at a major university and informed me they were nematodes, he said they pose no harm to the frogs. I've since had multiple froglets grow up in the tank. Probably need a positive ID to alleviate your fear. 
Brian


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## patm

Azriel said:


> I did a little reading up, and it seems you are right. There are a few plants that I really wanted to keep, but if it means not getting nemerteans in the new tank, then I guess I can throw them. If there's anything I can do to keep them though, please someone let me know.


I guess this is more of a question than a helpful response, but if you wanted to make sure not to transfer these things, are they really that hardy where the standard bleach dip would't be sufficient to sterilize your plants?

Pat


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## Ed

patm said:


> I guess this is more of a question than a helpful response, but if you wanted to make sure not to transfer these things, are they really that hardy where the standard bleach dip would't be sufficient to sterilize your plants?
> 
> Pat


There are two different threads discussing this topic at this moment, a lot the questions have been answered here. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/78350-what.html 

What appears to be the most commonly seen species in the hobby is able to make a dessication resistent mucosal cocoon which is probably going to provide protection against the brief dips in a disinfection level of bleach. 

Ed


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## Ed

BR5 said:


> I purchased a pum tank along with frogs that had what looks like the same thing only larger, they looked like small red worms climbing on the plants looking for food. I was in shock the first time I saw them. The former owned is a Dr. of entomology at a major university and informed me they were nematodes, he said they pose no harm to the frogs. I've since had multiple froglets grow up in the tank. Probably need a positive ID to alleviate your fear.
> Brian


The most commonly seen species in the enclosures appears to be _Argonemertes dendyi _See the thread I linked to in a previous post. Nematodes are common in enclosures but these have a different morphology and behavior... And have been recorded predating on invertebrates such as fruit flies. 

Ed


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## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Looks like a nemertean. From my understanding they pose absolutely no risk for your frogs or eggs. In fact, your frogs will happily munch on them.
> 
> People don't seem to like them because 1) they're unsightly and crawl on the sides of the glass sometimes, and 2) they are predators that feed on the viv's microfauna.


In some cases, the numbers have gotten high enough that people anecdotally report major predation on the fruit flies that were added to the tank for the frogs to the point, that the nemerteans reduced the food availability for the frogs. 
They impact more than the intank microfauna. 
Ed


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## hypostatic

Ed said:


> In some cases, the numbers have gotten high enough that people anecdotally report major predation on the fruit flies that were added to the tank for the frogs to the point, that the nemerteans reduced the food availability for the frogs.
> They impact more than the intank microfauna.
> Ed


Do they pose any _direct_ threat to the frogs though? Another member posted a concern for the safety of pumilio froglets.

Would it be feasible to starve the nemerteans to death? In cases like the one that you mentioned where the nemerteans have decimated the microfauna, would it be possible that if you didn't add any additional microfauna into the tank that the population would crash? Or do they undergo some sort of life stage like C elegans dauers where they can essentially "beat" starvation periods until food becomes available again? Or is it unlikely that the nemerteans will exhaust their food supply in the tank?


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## tahir tareen

i have them pretty bad in my juvenile cristobal tank(10gal) and the only problem other then being unsightly is i dont seem to have any springtails breeding intank, I add them every couple weeks, but between 3 frogs and the worms they go quick.

I doubt you could starve them off easily, maybe a tank left in a bone dry environment for years.

Im considering removing all plants and substrate, just leaving the wood background and leaving the tank outside to freeze. Anyone know how cold temps affect nemerteans?

Are the isopods that eat the eggs easily available?


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## frogface

Anecdotal report: 

I recently moved my tree frogs from a nemertean infested tank to a new one. In their old tank, there were tons, I mean tons, of microfauna, originally. Especially since the tree frogs weren't eating them. Their old tank has been left alone for a month or so now. You would expect to see lots of microfauna at this point, as the tank is still set up and yummy for springtails and isos. Sadly, the only thing I see moving in that tank is the nemerteans. 

eta: Their old tank was a recycled tank from previous frogs with previous nemerteans. I cleaned the daylights out of that tank and soaked it in bleach water. The nemerteans survived to infest the tank again.


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## Ed

hypostatic said:


> Do they pose any _direct_ threat to the frogs though? Another member posted a concern for the safety of pumilio froglets.
> 
> Would it be feasible to starve the nemerteans to death? In cases like the one that you mentioned where the nemerteans have decimated the microfauna, would it be possible that if you didn't add any additional microfauna into the tank that the population would crash? Or do they undergo some sort of life stage like C elegans dauers where they can essentially "beat" starvation periods until food becomes available again? Or is it unlikely that the nemerteans will exhaust their food supply in the tank?


 
I don't think the ones we see in the tanks are a real risk to the frogs directly if they were larger then possibly.. they can predate on things larger than thier size since they are venomous. 

Giiven that they can go dorment in a mucosal cocoon, I suspect that they can easily beat starvation as a method. In addition since they are found in areas where there is snow fall, they are probably fairly cold tolerant. 

Ed


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## ckays

> I don't think the ones we see in the tanks are a real risk to the frogs directly if they were larger then possibly.. they can predate on things larger than thier size since they are venomous.
> 
> Giiven that they can go dorment in a mucosal cocoon, I suspect that they can easily beat starvation as a method. In addition since they are found in areas where there is snow fall, they are probably fairly cold tolerant.
> 
> Ed


Well Ed, you are just full of sunshine and good news. 
Would a flame thrower work?


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## Ed

ckays said:


> Well Ed, you are just full of sunshine and good news.
> Would a flame thrower work?


Always... as would dropping the tank into molten steel... 

Ed


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## Azriel

It seems fairly hopeless trying to get rid of them. I wonder then, is it even worth trying?  I'm just not sure what to do with this information. 

Perhaps I can thoroughly wash the plants and roots, then bleach them, and set them up in a QT tub to watch for nemerteans. I read someone (I think it was you, Ed) recommend to QT all plants and just take cuttings for use in vivariums. But couldn't that still possibly transfer over some nemerteans too?


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## Ed

Azriel said:


> It seems fairly hopeless trying to get rid of them. I wonder then, is it even worth trying?  I'm just not sure what to do with this information.
> 
> Perhaps I can thoroughly wash the plants and roots, then bleach them, and set them up in a QT tub to watch for nemerteans. I read someone (I think it was you, Ed) recommend to QT all plants and just take cuttings for use in vivariums. But couldn't that still possibly transfer over some nemerteans too?


If you keep the pot wet and the upper parts of the plant dry, then there shouldn't be any nemerteans, snails or slugs on it.... 

Ed


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## Azriel

Okay, but what is their life cycle like? Where do they like to lay their eggs, and is there a chance some eggs would get transferred over to the tank? 

On a side note, it seems like my tank might not be too terribly infested yet. I haven't seen any more... yet.


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## Ed

Azriel said:


> Okay, but what is their life cycle like? Where do they like to lay their eggs, and is there a chance some eggs would get transferred over to the tank?
> 
> On a side note, it seems like my tank might not be too terribly infested yet. I haven't seen any more... yet.


We can form some hypothesis but the data on terrestrial nemerteans is deficient. At least one of the terrestrial species is ovoviviparious. 

Ed


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## frogface

More anecdotal info from me!

I'm planning to turn the old nemertean tank into a plant tank, eventually. I'll be soaking it in heavy bleach water and letting it dry out, completely. Don't know if that will work but we'll see. I'm going to set it up with a substrate and microfauna as a test, before I actually set it up for the plants. 

Meanwhile, the new tree frog tank appears to be nemertean free, thus far. 

I pulled the wood from the old tank (these are long thin pieces) and soaked them overnight in bleach water. Then I soaked them overnight in dechlorinated water. Then put them in the sun and let them bake there for a few days. Then brought them inside and put them on top of some heating vents to let them dry more. Then they were baked for 5 hours. Then they went into the tank.

All of the plants, except the vanilla vine, are still in the old tank and will be tossed. The vanilla vine was carefully washed with soap and water. Then rinsed with vinegar and water. Then soaked in bleach and water for about 30 min. Then soaked in dechlorinated water. 

It's been a month now. So far, so good. Still have my fingers crossed.


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## Eric Walker

Ed said:


> At least one of the terrestrial species is ovoviviparious.
> 
> Ed


please define this term for me ed. ? I have yet to have a problem with nematodes but i take multiple precautions like Kris. Bleach, boil, bake, boil. Dry, multiple steps. Knock on wood. I have yet to have to deal with them In viv


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## frogface

Definition of OVOVIVIPAROUS
: producing eggs that develop within the maternal body (as of various fishes or reptiles) and hatch within or immediately after release from the parent 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ovoviviparous

If that's the case with these nemerteans, does that mean that the eggs die with the parent? If so, that would be good news.


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## Ed

That is also assuming the species we see does keep the eggs.. there isn't a clear guideline from what I can tell as within one genus some do and some don't... 

Ed


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## RepAddict

Has anyone on here broached the idea of a CO2 Treatment, yes you have to remove the frogs and Yes, you would loose all good micro fauna in the process, but would that rid the worms short destroying the tank and starting over??
-- Note-- have never done this for a viv with animals, a friend does it to help her plants/orchids and to get rid of aphids/gnats


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## RepAddict

Cancel that- just saw the other thread discussing minimal 02 need. Wishful thinking


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