# Does this look like SLS?



## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

This is my very first tad to pop some hind legs. They look pretty tiny but then again I have nothing to compare to. It is an azureus, pictured here about 3 months after being laid. 
Temps have always been in the low to mid 70s. Feeding tadpole bites (about 5) once a week. Never once have done a water change. 

Also my first post from the iPhone. Not sure if the photo attachment will work. 

Thanks for the insight.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Too soon to tell. Post when it comes out of the water. 

Ed


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Does SLS ever occur to the hind legs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

holidayhanson said:


> Does SLS ever occur to the hind legs?


It has been reported rarely in the literature but it is too soon to tell in that picture. Post when it comes out of the water. 

Ed


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

just my 2 cents but think you need to wait until the front legs pop, the tad looks OK to me at this stage


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## jdooley195 (Oct 19, 2009)

tad looks normal to me


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## daryl34 (Feb 24, 2007)

The fore arms you see are just arm buds, this is not sls. You can tell that its not done with metamorphasis by the thickness of the tail. It shows its is not close to being done.
Keep up the feeding and water changes and you will see arm growth in about 2 weeks.


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## holidayhanson (Apr 25, 2007)

Okay. Thanks for the feedback. I was referring to the hind legs; they appear so tiny next to the marble size head. 

Maybe attempt some water changes tomorrow. They are pretty stanky. 😷


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

holidayhanson said:


> This is my very first tad to pop some hind legs.





holidayhanson said:


> Okay. Thanks for the feedback. I was referring to the hind legs; they appear so tiny next to the marble size head.
> 
> Maybe attempt some water changes tomorrow. They are pretty stanky. 😷


You might be misunderstanding the process a little. Only the front legs "pop". The rear legs grow in quite gradually. If you look closely at your others (if you have any others) you can see the rear legs growing in even as tiny little things. Put a tad in a clean, clear container and look at him from underneath. You will actually see the rear legs growing in when they are as small as 1/16th inch or smaller.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

daryl34 said:


> The fore arms you see are just arm buds, this is not sls. .


 
Just to be clear (so everyone has a clear picture).. We can't tell if it is SLS or not since SLS covers a spectrum of developemental issues involving the limbs, in recent years this is most commonly due to insufficient vitamin A/carotenoid deposition into the egg, insufficient diet post hatching and typically not becoming clearly evident until very close to or post metamorphosis. Since the tadpole has not gotten close to emerging from the water yet,* it is far too soon to be able to guess whether it does or doesn't have SLS in* *any of it's limbs*. Deformation is most commonly reported in the front limbs (and not always both limbs) but hind limbs are also documented in the literature. For those with more questions I strongly suggest getting thier hands on the review of SLS that was published in Leaf Litter (although that is now slightly outdated since the documentation of hypovitaminosis of A was available post publication. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

If you put him in a clear cup w/ some water you can shine a flashlight over the top and look from underneath. If the legs look thick they are fine. If the legs look thread thin it has spindly. If your familiar w/ looking at a lot of tads this way you can tell if it has spindly before the legs pop. 
In my opinion the bumps where the front legs are look big enough(at this stage) that it won't have spindly leg.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I've seen froglets (and it is also documented in the older literature) where the frog can have SLS and still have functional legs and only close examination shows the deformation. Which is why this is considered a spectrum disorder as the legs can be only slightly affected and if a person hasn't seen a lot of froglets to compare, it can be hard to diagnose when the frog is minimally affected. This is why an attempt to diagnose should wait until the frog is ready to leave the water. 
In any case the OP was referring to the hind limbs.. 

Ed


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

holidayhanson said:


> It is an azureus, pictured here about 3 months after being laid.
> Temps have always been in the low to mid 70s. Feeding tadpole bites (about 5) once a week. Never once have done a water change.
> 
> 
> View attachment 25513


"Maybe attempt some water changes tomorrow"

I don't know anyone elses experience with this, but in the past with some of my frogs, I would not do a water change, but only add fresh water as the tads grew. I had people receive some tadpoles from me that were pretty far along and I only suggested adding water, not doing water changes. The ones they did water changes they did not have luck with, but did have luck with the ones they only added water. Seeing that you are 3 months, I would caution doing a complete water change. My thoughts is maybe there is a new PH in the water, figuring with some waste being in there and all, then going to fresh water, could be a shock. 

I am not saying you won't have success doing a complete water change. Just throwing a caution out there.

Ed, do you have any thoughts on this? Was it a fluke for this person or could you see this being a realistic result at a farther along stage?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I have never seen it but there is something called short femur syndrome and that tad looks like it has proportioned femurs.



holidayhanson said:


> Does SLS ever occur to the hind legs?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogfarm said:


> I have never seen it but there is something called short femur syndrome and that tad looks like it has proportioned femurs.


Short femur syndrome was folded into SLS a long time ago in the literature. 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> "Maybe attempt some water changes tomorrow"
> 
> I don't know anyone elses experience with this, but in the past with some of my frogs, I would not do a water change, but only add fresh water as the tads grew. I had people receive some tadpoles from me that were pretty far along and I only suggested adding water, not doing water changes. The ones they did water changes they did not have luck with, but did have luck with the ones they only added water. Seeing that you are 3 months, I would caution doing a complete water change. My thoughts is maybe there is a new PH in the water, figuring with some waste being in there and all, then going to fresh water, could be a shock.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure which question for which you are asking my thoughts. 

Ed


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

Issue with changing water for first time so far in.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

mydumname said:


> Issue with changing water for first time so far in.


Got it.. It depends on whether there is enough of the biofiltration transferred with the tadpoles. I would suggest not changing more than 20% of the volume unless there was some major reason to do so (overfeeding) as that could really throw the water chemistry off. If there isn't enough to carry the biofiltration over to the new container then the risk is both from changes and from not changing. 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

The thing about short femur syndrome is that it occurs more than people think. Since it doesn't really affect their ability to live(like spindly leg does) in a viv people usually overlook it.
I used to do full water changes 2-3 times a week. If there is a problem w/ changing the water the problem is w/ the tads, not the water. Unless you don't let the chlorine evaporate or have chloramine in your water which doesn't evaporate out. I did switch over to topping off the water eventually.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

I use spring water and do 100% water change every day but I also over feed and keep nothing else in the cup aside from the tad and food. I have a had a few weak Lamasi out of about 200 and some Retics a few years ago that never developed legs (Aaron I think you got those?) out side of that I have had no issues to speak of. 
I think your tad looks fine, the back legs will get much longer as they grow before the front legs pop....just be patient and as Ed said until they are ready to come out of the water you really won't know....but it is unlikely you are having issues.


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## mydumname (Dec 24, 2004)

"I used to do full water changes 2-3 times a week. If there is a problem w/ changing the water the problem is w/ the tads, not the water."

If this is in reference to my comment, I was commenting on doing complete changes a couple months in after having done no complete changes previously. If not in reference to it, then ignore this post.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't see why it would cause a problem if it's the same source of water you used to begin with. People have had success doing water changes daily to not doing water changes at all. I myself have done full water changes half way thru or once a month, once a week, etc. As long as it's the same temp or close.



mydumname said:


> "I used to do full water changes 2-3 times a week. If there is a problem w/ changing the water the problem is w/ the tads, not the water."
> 
> If this is in reference to my comment, I was commenting on doing complete changes a couple months in after having done no complete changes previously. If not in reference to it, then ignore this post.


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