# Albino Darts



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, I was just wondering what everyone thought of the albino dart frogs. I've heard some say it's unethical, some say they're fascinating. Some say they'd pay abbundle for them, some say they wouldnt buy them. Where do you stand?

Mark


----------



## Dendrobatid (May 6, 2010)

It's bad news!


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I have produces 2 in 11 years. I gave them away. I personally think breeding them or selling them contributes to the trend of selective breeding. It takes the natural out of our hobby. I have not contributed to it as it would likely turn this hobby into the new ball python hobby. We have just too many colors and patterns to try to play god. If you cant find what you like in natural form in this hobby your in the wrong hobby

Michael


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

I just wanted to add, that I haven't declared my opinion in either manner as to keep this neutral from my side. So this isnt saying, in any way, that I do, or do not, agree with the practice. Please do vote though. 

Mark


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I would have them but wouldn't pay a bundle for them. If they are a natrual variation then there is no issue with me. I would also breed them back with a normal colored frogs. If they are a natural gentic variation then the genes are already with in said frogs and species. They should not be however be line bred for that color morph what so ever. So for me they shouldn't be treated better or worse then a regular colored frog.


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Albinoism is a genetic abnormality and wild animals rarely survive long with it. Breeding albino frogs would not replicate nature because few, if any, probably survive in nature long enough to breed. In my opinion, it's a form of line breeding to deliberately try to produce them. Most dart frog hobbyists are not in favor of deliberate line breeding or perpetuating a genetic mutation that would be considered a detrimental characteristic in nature.


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Abinism is a naturally occurring recessive trait. This means that, if by some chance occurrence you get two frogs out of your collection that are both heterozygous for the trait, meaning that they carry it and can pass it on to the offspring, but do not exhibit the trait themselves, they have a 25% chance of producing an albino offspring, or have 25% of their offspring be albino. Ay of you could have at least one frog that carries the gene, but not another for it to mate with to produce offspring that actually exhibit the phenotype.

Mark


----------



## Tony (Oct 13, 2008)

They're an interesting oddity but not something I would seek out or want to see intentionally produced.


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

James the only issue as Jim said is adding an albino into a breeding group no matter how large the group doesnt work out to what the natural chances of survival of the frog and the trait would be in the wild. This gos for all morphs, and traits.


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

I wonder how well an albino population would survive in the wild. In a group of animals where bright colors means danger, I venture to say that an albino population may just work out well, very well, if it weren't for the UV harming their delicate skin too severely. I honestly don't know, though. But that'd be my guess. It would only take one heterozygous pair, and bam, a new morph. There's no real way to say how they would do in the wild. There may even be whole albino populations out there. There's many places we haven't explored yet. Just saying, it's a possibility. 

Mark


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Im not sure UV issues on herps are all that true. An albino green iguana which I have needs just as much uv exposure as a normal one in order to thrive. That said the only population of albinos I know of surviving in the wild are albino burms in FL. They are a predatory reptile though with few dangers as well as being nonnative.


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

The iguana has scales. They act basically as a shield of sorts. As far as I know, darts, being amphibians, have think, sensitive skin. They have to in order to get all the oxygen and moisture they need through their skin. The scaled animals don't have this problem. 

Mark

EDIT. I also heard someplace that there were wild populations of albino vents..


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Ive seen no difference in albino darts vs normals but Ive only had one tinc and a thumb. I do know Patrick had issues morphing albino retics many years back but I think this is just another factor of reticulata being so frail. Albino ro no the survival rate for hand raising them isnt too great.


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, to be technically albino, there has to be no pigment in the eyes or the skin. So, the skin should look pale white or slightly pink, and the eyes should look the color of the back of the retina. In spiders, this is sometimes blue, but I assume it is pink in frogs. T could be a pale grey, though. You should definately see some difference..

Mark


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I know the difference and have seen it. I was referring to them being any weaker or suseptable to uv or disease,

Michael


----------



## Owl-man (Feb 14, 2011)

JimO said:


> Albinoism is a genetic abnormality and wild animals rarely survive long with it. Breeding albino frogs would not replicate nature because few, if any, probably survive in nature long enough to breed. In my opinion, it's a form of line breeding to deliberately try to produce them. Most dart frog hobbyists are not in favor of deliberate line breeding or perpetuating a genetic mutation that would be considered a detrimental characteristic in nature.


I agree 100%!


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Irregardless of wither they live 5 min in the wild or not by removing them from the gene pool you are removing genetic diversity wither or not you like it or don't not just the trait for albinism but all those that the frogs carries with it. 

Same thing with melanism by removing any abnormality if it is a natural genetic trait then it is with in the gene pool to begin with and should be so, by removing it you are doing exactly what you say you don't like. What is the differance if I breed frogs for color or I remove frogs for color abnormality either way is line breeding because you are trying to breed to keep or remove a genetic trait. Right?

It seems to me that breeding it back into the gene pool of common colored frogs for that species is not line breeding but keeping the genetic diversity intact wither I like the out come of some recessive gene or not or wither I find it attractive or not. 

Unless your are breeding it to reproduce the trait in more offspring from other frogs that have shown to have that trait as well isn't that the real definition of line breeding?. Unless I have miss understood line breeding or what is considered line breeding.

Also I could not find any study that shows what the average life span is of an albino frog in the wild. I personally don't know how long they would last nor am I willing to make an assumption on how long they would last.


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

The only issue is your not destroying a gene or trait as it is a genetic flaw. The frogs from the same clutch of eggs that show up should be just as good to return to the gene pool. At the rate frogs breed to other herps and animals if albino's which do occur in the wild made it to adult hood at any higher percentage they would be noticed. As territories are small and with direct hets breeding from the same clutch you would see patches of wild runn9ing albinos. They just stand out in the wild.Whether eaten or not they have a bigger shot being noticed which results in death, and injury.

Michael


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Pure white might not be recognized by the frogs' natural predators as indicative of toxic. Warning colors don't always save the first potential prey item (in this case a dart frog) from a predator who has encountered it for the first time. Avoiding bad tasting or toxic prey is, I believe, a learned behavior and the prey often dies in the encounter for the sake of the species, if you will. So, the odds are pretty thin, I would guess, that enough albino individuals would survive to reproduce. I also wonder (and this is pure speculation) whether the ability to accumulate toxins in their skin would be affected by albinism.


Markw said:


> I wonder how well an albino population would survive in the wild. In a group of animals where bright colors means danger, I venture to say that an albino population may just work out well, very well, if it weren't for the UV harming their delicate skin too severely. I honestly don't know, though. But that'd be my guess. It would only take one heterozygous pair, and bam, a new morph. There's no real way to say how they would do in the wild. There may even be whole albino populations out there. There's many places we haven't explored yet. Just saying, it's a possibility.
> 
> Mark


----------



## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> The only issue is your not destroying a gene or trait as it is a genetic flaw. The frogs from the same clutch of eggs that show up should be just as good to return to the gene pool. At the rate frogs breed to other herps and animals if albino's which do occur in the wild made it to adult hood at any higher percentage they would be noticed. As territories are small and with direct hets breeding from the same clutch you would see patches of wild runn9ing albinos. They just stand out in the wild.Whether eaten or not they have a bigger shot being noticed which results in death, and injury.
> 
> Michael


Ok I got ya now.....I see what you are saying that make sense.


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

There is a population of albino (not pure - their eyes aren't red) squirrels in Brevard, NC. In fact, the town is famous for them. However, they only survive in the downtown area where hawks don't come very often. They're like pigeons. They cannot survive outside City parks and other placed inhabited by people due to predation. A hawk can spot a white squirrel from a mile away.


poison beauties said:


> Im not sure UV issues on herps are all that true. An albino green iguana which I have needs just as much uv exposure as a normal one in order to thrive. That said the only population of albinos I know of surviving in the wild are albino burms in FL. They are a predatory reptile though with few dangers as well as being nonnative.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

JimO said:


> There is a population of albino (not pure - their eyes aren't red) squirrels in Brevard, NC. In fact, the town is famous for them. However, they only survive in the downtown area where hawks don't come very often. They're like pigeons. They cannot survive outside City parks and other placed inhabited by people due to predation. A hawk can spot a white squirrel from a mile away.


wouldn't they be " leucistic"


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

Likely hypomelanistic or xanthic. Ive seen leucistics but they are usually snow white with extramely noticably blac or blue eyes.

Michael


----------



## Ben Wehr (Jan 23, 2011)

I actually just don't like albinos in general. They're kinda unnatural and a bit freakish to me. The red eyes bug me too.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> James the only issue as Jim said is adding an albino into a breeding group no matter how large the group doesnt work out to what the natural chances of survival of the frog and the trait would be in the wild. This gos for all morphs, and traits.


Not picking on you Michael, just quoting as it is the most relevent to my post. 

I'm just going to discuss some things here.. we can't use survivial in the wild as a justification for breeding or not breeding something in captivity as there are no natural selection pressures in captivity. There are reports of reproductive sized albino or other color mutations in anurans, including areas in which they were significant portions of the population (see for example Occurrence of yellow bullfrogs(Rana catesbeiana Shaw) in central Pennsylvania KA PHILLIPS, GC BOONE - Proceedings …, 1975 - Pennsylvania Academy of Science). 

As noted elsewhere in the thread, if you cull them from the population, then you are directly affecting the genetics of the population which can reduce genetic variations in the populations as you can't be sure that there aren't genes that are beneficial for the frogs that are associated with those genes. People often think that this sort of selection doesn't affect other genes but it does. 
The real method is to potentially include them in the populations genetics but you don't want to produce them at a greater frequency then what pops up on its own (in other words don't select for that trait and don't select away from that trait). 

Hopefully that clears it up a little more. 

Ed


----------



## dravenxavier (Mar 12, 2008)

There is a naturally occurring population of albino Japanese Ratsnakes (Elaphe climacophora) in Japan, which is considered a national treasure.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

dravenxavier said:


> There is a naturally occurring population of albino Japanese Ratsnakes (Elaphe climacophora) in Japan, which is considered a national treasure.


Thank you.. I was just trying to remember which species it was... it was irritating me to no end. 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I hear you Ed and I was an active morph breeder of reptiles for years and I know this, To actively include a gene lets say albino, and breed it back in without purposely or directly breeding out the trait your founding stock would have to be kept tracked as well as be very large in numbers. Each het that results from the pairng is a risk that the albino gene ends up in large numbers. How do you keep this from happening in any unnatural way as hets are directly a result and I would consider them to be unnatural as well for the most part in the wild. Naturally occuring albinos dont hatch in numbers like they would in captivity.
I havent seen anything that suggests all offsring from a directly related clutch are all geneticly different or that albinism would hold a needed gene other clutch mates lack in order to sustain a line in nature and since albino darts are so rare and these speices arent falling off the planet due to lack of albinism I dont know how to go further into this subject.
This is captive breeding yes and while it doesnt apply to natural selection the hobby for the most part has thrown its 2 cents in on this and most would like to try and hold the natural beauty of these frog above all else. 
Just my thoughts and I have nothing but hope this hobby advances to the ppoint more of us understand and can better husbandry all around. It is true that frogs are smaller and colors not so bright but it doesnt mean we need to breed out new colors, morphs.

Michael


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

dravenxavier said:


> There is a naturally occurring population of albino Japanese Ratsnakes (Elaphe climacophora) in Japan, which is considered a national treasure.


This likely means protected. That said yes they happened first but in the long run the gene would disapear. Direct work by Japan is the only thing keeping it established. 
We in the hobby are trying to keep a group protected to be as is. We are trying to prevent a purposfull selective breeding issue for whatever reason its taken on for. Money is usually the main objective.
Ive given away albino darts over turning them into a cash cow. I know others have kept it from happening as well. This isnt a hands off rant I have actively done my part to prevent this from going on in this hobby and it didnt involve culling. It was a matter of placing the frog into the hands of someone who wanted a display nothing more. They are rare but it doesnt mean time to get rich.
Michael


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> I hear you Ed and I was an active morph breeder of reptiles for years and I know this, To actively include a gene lets say albino, and breed it back in without purposely or directly breeding out the trait your founding stock would have to be kept tracked as well as be very large in numbers. Each het that results from the pairng is a risk that the albino gene ends up in large numbers. How do you keep this from happening in any unnatural way as hets are directly a result and I would consider them to be unnatural as well for the most part in the wild. Naturally occuring albinos dont hatch in numbers like they would in captivity.
> I havent seen anything that suggests all offsring from a directly related clutch are all geneticly different or that albinism would hold a needed gene other clutch mates lack in order to sustain a line in nature and since albino darts are so rare and these speices arent falling off the planet due to lack of albinism I dont know how to go further into this subject.
> This is captive breeding yes and while it doesnt apply to natural selection the hobby for the most part has thrown its 2 cents in on this and most would like to try and hold the natural beauty of these frog above all else.
> Just my thoughts and I have nothing but hope this hobby advances to the ppoint more of us understand and can better husbandry all around. It is true that frogs are smaller and colors not so bright but it doesnt mean we need to breed out new colors, morphs.
> ...


It is actually somewhat simple.. if there is a core population that is being managed for diversity (ideally at least 100 (between multiple breeders but it can be done with much less)), then whether it is included in that group is by random choice to avoid bias on the part of the person making the determination. If it isn't selected by random, then it is deaccessioned into the unmanaged population. Whether or not is it line bred in the unmanaged population is then of no effect to the managed population. 

If by chance it is included in the managed population, then it is paired with as unrelated an animal as possible which is probably not going to be a het for albinism (melanism or diabetes etc) so it ends up not showing up in the managed population at a higher rate than normal. 
The only time you may see it more frequently is if the population is started with an extremely small population of animals so that the F1s have no choice but be closely related. These sort of populations are at the greatest risk of extinction due to the high risk of inbreeding depression and the lack of genetic diversity in the immunological genes making the population at greater risk from epidemics. 


This minimizes the risks of artificial selection or line breeding on the genetics. Some drift will occur but these methods minimize it and are actually the methods used by institutions to preserve populations for between 200 and 500 years. The differences in the time scale depend on a number of factors including number of founders and minimal time between generations. With dendrobatids, we can reasonably respect at least 5-10 years (depending on species) between filial generations to sustain the program.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> This likely means protected. That said yes they happened first but in the long run the gene would disapear. Direct work by Japan is the only thing keeping it established.
> We in the hobby are trying to keep a group protected to be as is. We are trying to prevent a purposfull selective breeding issue for whatever reason its taken on for. Money is usually the main objective.
> Ive given away albino darts over turning them into a cash cow. I know others have kept it from happening as well. This isnt a hands off rant I have actively done my part to prevent this from going on in this hobby and it didnt involve culling. It was a matter of placing the frog into the hands of someone who wanted a display nothing more. They are rare but it doesnt mean time to get rich.
> Michael


They are protected from human collection. There isn't any protection against natural predation. 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

yes but with protection from collection they are still a tourist attraction which usually leads to the natural predator levels and well as all around dangers to dwindle. Their territory is likely not very natural anymore.

Michael


----------



## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

poison beauties said:


> yes but with protection from collection they are still a tourist attraction which usually leads to the natural predator levels and well as all around dangers to dwindle. Their territory is likely not very natural anymore.
> 
> Michael


from my understanding they are a population that exists in the region, and aren't limited to something like a theme park. Though there is a museum


----------



## John1451 (Jun 6, 2011)

Who the hell wants a white dart frog when their natural colors look so forking awesome anyways? 

Piebald,albino etc ball pythons have such a big following because ball pythons "naturally" look like .....well like a ball of crap...and have little or NO personality. 

Dart Fanatics are TRUE lovers of nature and environmental simulation....if albinism happened naturally then we would see more of it...

Any intentional screwing with genetics is VERY frowned on in this hobby (in my opinion)!

John

Tinctorius 
0.0.4 Azureus
0.0.4 Citronella 
0.0.2 Yellowback
1.1.0 Powder Blue
0.0.1 Cobalt

Auratus
0.0.4 Costa Rica
0.0.1 Campania

Leucomelas 
0.0.2 British Guiana


----------



## ghutch0203 (Jun 13, 2010)

I don't agree with breeding for albinism or any selective breeding for that matter in darts but keeping an albino with "normally" colored darts isn't going to hurt. I'm with Michael and would prefer not to do it but it can be done if you can place the dart with others not closely related. Albinism does happen in the wild with darts and I have read more then once that there are populations with noticeable amounts of albinos. I do believe vents was the example used.


----------



## ghutch0203 (Jun 13, 2010)

Oh and as far as the albino rat snake in Japan goes a census was started in 1974 and has since noticed a decline in the amount of wild albinos but the normal type is still common. A breeding program was started to bring the albino population back up so that the city of Iwakuni does not lose this "natural monumnet"!


----------



## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

ghutch0203 said:


> Oh and as far as the albino rat snake in Japan goes a census was started in 1974 and has since noticed a decline in the amount of wild albinos but the normal type is still common. A breeding program was started to bring the albino population back up so that the city of Iwakuni does not lose this "natural monumnet"!


A cursory search turned up an article claiming that the breeding program was in response to habitat loss, not a resurgence of normal coloration in the group

Out of curiosity, where did you here it was initiated to maintain a predominately albino population?

http://forum.kingsnake.com/asia/messages/754.html


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

ghutch0203 said:


> I don't agree with breeding for albinism or any selective breeding for that matter in darts but keeping an albino with "normally" colored darts isn't going to hurt. I'm with Michael and would prefer not to do it but it can be done if you can place the dart with others not closely related. Albinism does happen in the wild with darts and I have read more then once that there are populations with noticeable amounts of albinos. I do believe vents was the example used.


Keeping an albino with regularly colored frogs will produce heterozygous offspring if the two mate. Say the genotype for the albino frog is aa. The Genotype for the "normal" frog, if he is homozygous dominant, would be AA. If the two mated, it can, minimilistically, be gathered that their offspring would be 100% Aa, heterozygous (carrying the gene, but not exhibiting the trait themselves). Should these offspring mate, or be mated with another heterozygous, they would produce 25% AA, or homozygous dominant, offspring which neither carry the trait or exhibit albinism, 50% Aa, heterozygous offspring which carry the trait and can pass it on, but do not exhibit albinism themselves, and 25% aa, homozygous recessive. These are your albino offspring.

This is how keeping albino frogs with other normal frogs can lead to the dreaded albino pandemic.

Mark


----------



## ghutch0203 (Jun 13, 2010)

Brotherly Monkey said:


> A cursory search turned up an article claiming that the breeding program was in response to habitat loss, not a resurgence of normal coloration in the group
> 
> Out of curiosity, where did you here it was initiated to maintain a predominately albino population?
> 
> Protection of endangered snake is too much- Japan Press Item





Albinism in the Elaphe climacophora

(by H. Bernard Bechtel)


An abnormally high number of albino Japanese rat snakes (Elaphe climacophora) has existed for many years in the city of Iwakuni, Japan. Japanese rat snakes are typically light olive with four light brown longitudinal stripes. As with many snakes of this genus, the young are blotched. Adult albinos are white to yellow with golden irises, red pupils, and red tongues. Juvenile albinos are marked by orange dorsal and lateral blotches corresponding to the juvenile pattern. Since this is the only know instance among snakes where albinism has become established in a wild population, the habitat know to support the albino population was designated a natural monument in 1924 by the Japanese Government, and in 1972 the snakes themselves were designated as the natural monument.
Their numbers are apparently decreasing, and not much is know about their historical abundance. Census since 1974 have shown progressive declines in reports of albinos, but wild types are still abundant. Because of this, the city and the Society for the Conservation of the Iwakuni shirohebis sponsored a study to elucidate the circumstances surrounding the establishment and maintenance of this unusual population. In 1924 residents of Iwakuni were questioned regarding these snakes. Snakes were reported to be abundant in stone walls, gardens, and streets, and it was not rare to find albino snakes in human residences. An artificial breeding program has been established to make sure that Iwakuni does not lose its unusual distinction among Japanese cities.

Here is part of one article and I will post the other if I can find it. The second article talks of the governments involvement with reintroduction.


----------



## ghutch0203 (Jun 13, 2010)

Markw said:


> Keeping an albino with regularly colored frogs will produce heterozygous offspring if the two mate. Say the genotype for the albino frog is aa. The Genotype for the "normal" frog, if he is homozygous dominant, would be AA. If the two mated, it can, minimilistically, be gathered that their offspring would be 100% Aa, heterozygous (carrying the gene, but not exhibiting the trait themselves). Should these offspring mate, or be mated with another heterozygous, they would produce 25% AA, or homozygous dominant, offspring which neither carry the trait or exhibit albinism, 50% Aa, heterozygous offspring which carry the trait and can pass it on, but do not exhibit albinism themselves, and 25% aa, homozygous recessive. These are your albino offspring.
> 
> This is how keeping albino frogs with other normal frogs can lead to the dreaded albino pandemic.
> 
> Mark


Agreed! As to why I choose not to do it. But I don't think it would create a dreaded albino pandemic.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Markw said:


> Keeping an albino with regularly colored frogs will produce heterozygous offspring if the two mate. Say the genotype for the albino frog is aa. The Genotype for the "normal" frog, if he is homozygous dominant, would be AA. If the two mated, it can, minimilistically, be gathered that their offspring would be 100% Aa, heterozygous (carrying the gene, but not exhibiting the trait themselves). Should these offspring mate, or be mated with another heterozygous, they would produce 25% AA, or homozygous dominant, offspring which neither carry the trait or exhibit albinism, 50% Aa, heterozygous offspring which carry the trait and can pass it on, but do not exhibit albinism themselves, and 25% aa, homozygous recessive. These are your albino offspring.
> 
> This is how keeping albino frogs with other normal frogs can lead to the dreaded albino pandemic.
> 
> Mark


 
This is what happens in either a very small founder population or an unmanaged population where groups of siblings are used for the next generation. If the population was even managed to some extent those heterozygous offspring used for the next generation would be paired with unrelated frogs (as you could tell they were unrelated by either asking the registry manager or looking yourself). So the frequency of the appearence of albinos is never going to be the "plague" as foretold above.. they would remain at a low frequency as seen in the population and the associated genetics would remain close to the genetics at the time management begins.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

John1451 said:


> Any intentional screwing with genetics is VERY frowned on in this hobby (in my opinion)!
> 
> John


 
Yet deliberate screwing with the genetics occurs routinely with no outcry. Everytime someone purchases a group of siblings to rear to get a pair of frogs and chooses the prettiest pair of those to set up as breeders.. 
Everytime someone claims they are letting natural selection determine which tadpoles survive to metamorphosis or continues to perpetuate frogs that were line bred for different pattern type (fine spot azureus as an example). All of these are deliberate acts which screw with the genetics of the populations.

If you think about it objectively, the hobby in general is simply breeding for color and pattern (as the "best" frogs are paired together (a subjective bias)..) 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

ghutch0203 said:


> Agreed! As to why I choose not to do it. But I don't think it would create a dreaded albino pandemic.


I agree it wouldnt cause a pandemic but what it can and will do is increase the amount of albinos floating around to the point it would give new hobbyists the views that its an accepted practice. That is when the numbers would become an issue.

Trying to prevent it is all we can do. This gos for all selective breeding. People also need to start buying frog meant for breeding from two different groups. There is no reason for inbreeding with many species here. As for the ideals on choosing pairs the only issue I take is the choice of pairing off a frog that is clearly smaller or not as dominate as the others from its clutch.




Michael


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> I agree it wouldnt cause a pandemic but what it can and will do is increase the amount of albinos floating around to the point it would give new hobbyists the views that its an accepted practice. That is when the numbers would become an issue.


Only in the sections of the population that are not being managed. 



poison beauties said:


> There is no reason for inbreeding with many species here. As for the ideals on choosing pairs the only issue I take is the choice of pairing off a frog that is clearly smaller or not as dominate as the others from its clutch.


 
This is direct selection for adaptation to captivity. It is still artificial selection. 

Ed


----------



## poison beauties (Mar 1, 2010)

I know it is and while I usually do my part to try and include all lines and a frog from each group into a pairing which is random I do not believe adding a runt or clearly weaker frog into the pairing when there is one from the same clutch that is a better choice. I dont care about pattern, colors and all that but with frogs being smaller these days why risk adding to it. 
I know your sneaker male reference as well from the issues on the marbled thread over a year ago but that said it happens at a much smaller percentage than the dominate male in a group breeding. If the hobby would focus on bettering husbandry instead of producing new morphs, mixing and trying to breed out as many frogs as they can to make a buck we may be able to prevent it all.

Michael


----------



## auratusross (Jan 3, 2011)

I would have no problems including an albino frog as part of a "group" of frogs as then it would be the frogs themselves, deciding if it was fit enough to pair and breed with (as it has other options) as it would in the wild. That way i would feel as though it would be natural selection deciding if the gene continues and not me. I would not deliberately try to purchase an albino frog. I also do not value them any more than what a "normal" (not politically correct wording i know) frog would be priced at.


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

poison beauties said:


> I know it is and while I usually do my part to try and include all lines and a frog from each group into a pairing which is random I do not believe adding a runt or clearly weaker frog into the pairing when there is one from the same clutch that is a better choice. I dont care about pattern, colors and all that but with frogs being smaller these days why risk adding to it.
> I know your sneaker male reference as well from the issues on the marbled thread over a year ago but that said it happens at a much smaller percentage than the dominate male in a group breeding. If the hobby would focus on bettering husbandry instead of producing new morphs, mixing and trying to breed out as many frogs as they can to make a buck we may be able to prevent it all.
> 
> Michael


It depends on what your intentions are with the population. If you are breeding for a wild type population then culling frogs who may be phenotypically expressing genes that are not 100% adaptive to captive life (and the associated genes such as immune function) is contraindicated as it reduces important genetic diversity. 

If the goal is to produce a population analagous to the pure bred dog in which those animals which are considered to be showing "faults" based on a subjective analysis are culled, then that is acceptable within that process. 

It all depends on the goal for that population.


----------



## Markw (Jun 27, 2011)

ghutch0203 said:


> Agreed! As to why I choose not to do it. But I don't think it would create a dreaded albino pandemic.


Nor do I. That was sarcasm, my friend. 

Mark


----------



## JimO (May 14, 2010)

Now if we start talking about albino frog Pandemics*, then I might be able to contribute to the discussion. Being a Mod at FluTrackers.com, I have quite a lot of experience as a self-taught, amateur (emphasis on amateur) epidemiologist. So, perhaps all albino dart frogs could be called H1N1 variants. 

*Of course, it won't be an official Pandemic unless it meets the WHO's criteria and they officially declared it a Pandemic.


----------



## ryank458 (Aug 5, 2010)

Markw said:


> I wonder how well an albino population would survive in the wild. In a group of animals where bright colors means danger, I venture to say that an albino population may just work out well, very well, if it weren't for the UV harming their delicate skin too severely. I honestly don't know, though. But that'd be my guess. It would only take one heterozygous pair, and bam, a new morph. There's no real way to say how they would do in the wild. There may even be whole albino populations out there. There's many places we haven't explored yet. Just saying, it's a possibility.
> 
> Mark


I like your point about Darts defense being loud color as a warning sign to other animals. Other albino animals don't stand a chance because their natural color is for camouflage. An albino dart might do ok in the wild if he wears sun block or stays in a jungle with heavy canopy. I agree with those that say they shouldn't be breed in captivity. But, they should not be destroyed either. They should enjoy a cumfy vivarium the rest of their unnatural life.


----------



## Brotherly Monkey (Jul 20, 2010)

ryank458 said:


> I like your point about Darts defense being loud color as a warning sign to other animals. Other albino animals don't stand a chance because their natural color is for camouflage. An albino dart might do ok in the wild if he wears sun block or stays in a jungle with heavy canopy. I agree with those that say they shouldn't be breed in captivity. But, they should not be destroyed either. They should enjoy a cumfy vivarium the rest of their unnatural life.


they're produced via the natural breading process of the animal, and are representative of already existent genes. So I'm unsure why you would think of them as "unnatural"


----------



## Reef_Haven (Jan 19, 2011)

poison beauties said:


> I have produces 2 in 11 years.


Since Michael only produced two, isn't it likely that there is more than one trait controlling whether or not offspring are albino? If they were truely Mendelian Monohybrids, shouldn't those pairs have produced nearly 25% albino?
There has been discussion about managing the offspring, so they aren't purposely line bred. Just wondering if it would be correct to simply say that all non-albino offspring are 66% Het Albino?
How should someone designate the non-albino offspring for "Management"?


----------



## Frog Tropics (Jul 18, 2012)

I, too, wonder how well they would fair in the wild without the aposematic colorations that typically serve to warn would-be predators of their poisonous nature. That said, I do find them fascinating and always enjoy looking at pictures of them. However, I would prefer to own those with the more "typical" and exotic color patterns that draw most to darts in the first place. Suppose then I would place a priority on beauty over rarity (albeit, percieved beauty as beauty is in the eye of the beholder). Also, I don't care for red eyes. So there's that.


----------



## tritium (Aug 19, 2012)

Anybody have any albinos they have pictures of they can share?

As for surviving in the wild my opinion is, toxic or not, i don't think a population would survive. There isn't a single species that comes to mind in which being albino is a favorable, or even neutral trait. It is inherently selected against for a few reasons

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## ICS523 (Mar 10, 2012)

Saurian Enterprises, Inc :: Buy Dart Frogs :: Dart Frogs and other Frogs :: Thumbnails :: R. imitator "Tarapoto" Melanistic

What do you guys think of this?


----------



## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

tritium said:


> There isn't a single species that comes to mind in which being albino is a favorable, or even neutral trait. It is inherently selected against for a few reasons


Not always, see for example JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie 
(The link works even if it says there is an error)

Ed


----------



## tritium (Aug 19, 2012)

thats really interesting! i never would have guessed that such a large population of albinos existed in the wild


----------



## a1pha (Nov 9, 2011)

I've never cared for any of the albino or similar traits that have been breed in other animals. I don't care to see that happen to darts either. 

I understand that rarity drives people to breed them, but I'll never own or buy any. 


Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## easternversant (Sep 4, 2012)

Ed said:


> Not always, see for example JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
> (The link works even if it says there is an error)
> 
> Ed


Albinism is generally considered to have highly negative impacts on individual fitness. For whatever reason, the negative effects of albinism (which is a Mendelian recessive trait in this population) have not been strong enough in this population to eliminate it in this population. I assume it is a result of genetic drift in this population, which is an isolated delta with little to no genetic inflow.


----------



## Dendrobati (Jul 27, 2012)

Ed has stated it very well.

My opinion is that the genetic mutation shouldn't be frowned upon as long as the genetic pool is vast. Deep line breeding to achieve a desired phenotype should be avoided. Further, I feel that line breeding to achieve a genetic disorder should be greatly frowned upon.

Brad


----------

