# Losing Frogs – Help!



## Guest (Dec 19, 2006)

I am new at this and I am having trouble and I hope someone can help me. I constructed my vivarium using an an Exo-Terra 18" x 18" x 24" according to the instructions on the BlackJungle.com website. Initially I had constructed it with half of the rear of the top screen covered with plexiglass and the other half covered with my UV light (an ESU Slimline fixture). The front half of the top screen was two thirds covered with plexi and the remaining third had an Exo-Terra 5.5” lamp with ceramic heat emitter sitting on the screen. The emitter was controlled by a Helix temperature controller. I was having trouble keeping my humidity up (I live in Vermont and it is extremely dry here this time of year). I also have a misting system installed, and I had to mist two to three times a day. I introduced three frogs and they all died within three days. Obviously I was mortified and frustrated. I spoke with the folks at BlackJungle and they suggested that I completely seal my top—they said that direct UV exposure was unimportant, but it was crucial that I maintain a steady humidity. So I went to work, and did quite a bit of reconstruction. I covered the top completely with plexiglass, and placed my ESU Slimline over the rear portion of the top. I installed a larger UTH for warmth (it’s very cool here this time of year, so I need quite a bit of artificial heat). I installed a 25 watt Exo-Terra UTH, but that wasn’t enough. So I also installed an Exo-Terra 5.5” fixture containing a 100 watt infrared bulb and suspended this approximately five inches above the front portion of my top using a ZooMed lamp stand. I connected this fixture up to my Helix controller and now my temperature stays at a steady 76 – 77 degrees. If I put my hand inside the viviarium I find that the temperature is extremely uniform. The infrared is well above the top and the heat is diffused nicely and evenly. Additionally, I installed two 80 mm computer fans attached to the underside of the front part of my plexiglass and spaced approximately ¼” below the plexi to circulate air and help keep the condensation down on my front doors. The fans are not vented to the outside of the vivarium. I have these fans running during the day, whenever my UV light is on (presently 7:00AM – 9:00PM). My humidity is now also extremely stable at 80% or higher. There is always condensation on the inside walls of my glass with the exception of the front doors while my fans are running. So, as you can see, my environment is now very stable and, seemingly, well within the proper parameters for keeping poison dart frogs. So I went and purchased another frog, a D. Leucomela, and introduced it to my vivarium. It died after approximately 48 hours. So I don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I am extremely sad and frustrated. I presume that there is something toxic in the vivarium, but I don’t know.

Other details of my vivarium construction. Inside back is constructed of silicone on glass covered with great stuff foam (with tropical hardwood embedded in the foam). Great stuff foam was then covered with silicone and then dried coco bedding was applied to the silicone. The substrate I am using is LECA with a screen barrier covered with coco bedding. I have the vivarium liberally planted, and my plants are doing quite well (except for a venus fly trap I have, which isn’t doing very well). The plants I have are young, but are all growing extremely rapidly. I have an orchid, "Black Velvet", Anubias, Teresa Guzmania, Lemon Button Fern, Watermelon Vine, Calathea, Gesneriad, and Club Moss.

I now mist approximately 30 seconds every other day, and that keeps my humidity at 80% or higher. I mist with distilled water that is remineralized with ConcenTrace Mineral Drops at the recommended dosage. I also keep a small amount of water in a “Jungle Pod” I purchased from BlackJungle.

So, can anyone help me? Does anyone have any idea why I am losing frogs? I really like poison darts and I dearly want to be successful. I have quite a bit of time, money, and effort invested, so your help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

David Tanzer
Charlotte, Vermont


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## Dancing frogs (Feb 20, 2004)

I'd say give up putting heat on the tank, if I had to guess, that is you're problem...what you describe sounds like a mini convection oven.
How are you measuring the temp and humidity?
I'd say turn the room thermostat up, and get rid of the tank heating devices.
Also, dumb question, but are you feeding the frogs? I ask cause you mentioned nothing about feeding them or providing vit/calcium supplementation, outside of the "mineral drops" you had mentioned.


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

^ even w/o feeding them he wouldn't lose them within a period of days. sounds to me like you are either overheating the tank, like dancing frogs says lose the heater, or something in your background didnt' cure right. either way. it really sounds like you need to break down the tank, resterilize everythign and start over


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2006)

Thanks for your responses. I don't believe I'm overheating my tank. I actually have three thermomenters in the tank. My Helix temp. controller, an ESU digital and a Exo-Terra analog, and they all agree within 1 degree (~77 degrees). My tank cools somewhat at night without the UV lamp on (maybe down to 70 degrees), so it doesn't seem like that would be too warm.

I was feeding my frogs flightless fruit flies, once or twice a day.

Yikes--I hope I don't have to break down my tank! I don't know if that's even possible, with the foam/silcone background. No other animals have been in the tank, so I don't know what would have contaminated it requiring sterilization. And what wouldn't have cured properly? I let the foam and silicone cure for at least 24 hours in between steps.

Again, thanks very much for your help, but I'm still at a loss.

Regards,

David


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## widmad27 (Aug 9, 2006)

Here my contribution to this thread...I would have to agree with the comment about something not curing right, one thing I would check is did your silicone cure solid because all silicone tubes are not alike...I have in the past had silicone that just doesn’t seem right and it doesn’t cure solid at all even after 3 to 4 days. And if it is in the liquid form it might be leaking into your water...And with darts and porous skin I would have no problem believing they could die in less then 48 hours.

Hope this helps and best of luck,


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2006)

I used GE Silicone II for windows and doors, so I didn’t skimp on materials. I know the layer I put on the glass cured properly because I scored and cut it with a razor blade after I had applied the coco bedding to the front of the background, and it took quite a bit of effort. I also think the silicone on the foam cured properly because there has been really minimal shedding of the coco bedding off the background. I just opened my vivarium and poked around at the background with my fingers, and it seems like it cured properly (it’s been in there well over a month now). The foam flexes when I push on it, but the silicone is completely dry and no coco bedding comes off (and there is no residue that I can see on my fingers when I poke around). I’d hate to toss my tank without knowing that this is indeed the problem. I have many, many hours invested in it, and it is quite beautiful. But I sure won’t try another frog until I have some level of assurance that I’ve solved this problem.

As well, my plants are thriving and the fruit flies seem unaffected by being in the viv.

David


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## coolhand (Dec 12, 2006)

What kind of water are you using?


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2006)

I am using distilled water that is remineralized with ConcenTrace Mineral Drops (http://www.traceminerals.com/products/drops.html). We have a home distiller, so I use the water from it.

David[/url]


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## coolhand (Dec 12, 2006)

Not to sure about those drops, of course I am new but I havent heard of anyone using them? could this be a problem guys?


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2006)

With my first set of frogs I used pure, unmineralized distilled water in my misting system and tap water (which is well water from our well) in the "Jungle Pod." After I lost the first frogs, I switched exclusively to remineralized distilled water (I became concerned that the frogs needed some minerals). But, then again, I wouldn't expect to lose them so quickly with just distilled water.

Thanks for thinking about this, folks. Any other suggestions?

David


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Hmmm something doesn't seem quite right...since you are convinced the temps are fine then the next most likely culprit is some sort of toxic material in the viv itself.

I would lose the heating lamp regardless...darts like it cool and temps down in the 60s don't faze them. 

Secondly, try quarantining the frogs after you obtain them in a sterilite shoebox containing some damp sphagnum moss, a few pothos cuttings and just let it sit in the room (no light other than ambient room light) and no heating lamps, etc. In a sense you 'violated' frog rule #1 in not quarantining the frogs after obtaining them (but I suspect we have all broken rule #1 including me so I'm not being accusatory). See how well the frogs do in that setting, including being able to watch them eat. If they don't do well for you in the shoebox, we will have isolated the variable(s) to outside the viv. Otherwise if they do well, the viv itself is even more heavily under suspicion.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Bill


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## coolhand (Dec 12, 2006)

Well Elmoisfive makes a good point. That would be a good way to "troubleshoot" the problem ..harsh term I know .. when dealing with live animals, but you say that after the first frogs died you bought a new one and that one also died which leads me to believe that it has something to do with the tank? Were the frogs from the same supplier have you contacted them with and have they had any recent problems? If you got the frogs from 2 diff suppliers I would have to say it is most likely your tank. 

most people are using distilled or RO water exclusivly in their setups with no problems. Correct me if I am wrong but the frogs would obtain most of the minerals they need from a dusted food source. The plants on the other hand may appreciate the added minerals in the water. There has been some debate about using distilled water on plants only considering it is a "dead" water. The argument goes that the plants obtain enough nutrients from dead inscects and frog waste. If you do get new frogs I would quarantine in distilled or RO with nothing added. As for the well water that you speak of I would assume this could casue many problems for the frogs. 

This is a list of the "minerals" found in the additive, this list looks pretty bad for frogs...

Magnesium 250 mg. 62%* 
Chloride 680 mg. ** 
Sulfate 75 mg. ** 
Potassium 5 mg. ** 
Sodium 4.5 mg. ** 
Lithium 1.0 mg. ** 
Plus the following in naturally occurring varying trace amounts; Calcium, Carbonate, Bromide, Fluoride, Iodine, Rubidium, Scandium, Boron, Phosphorus, Nickel, Manganese, Chromium, Strontium, Cobalt, Zinc, Titanium, Lanthanum, Cerium, Barium, Copper, Iron, Silicon, Yttrium, Molybdenum, Tin, Gallium, Gold, Silver, Cesium, Beryllium, Selenium, Vanadium, Dysprosium, Holmium, Terbium, Praseodymium, Lutetium, Gadolinium, Samarium, Bismuth, Ytterbium, Erbium, Europium, Neodymium.


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## DizzyD (Sep 19, 2006)

Don't take this the wrong way; but I'd break down the tank; sterilize everything you'd really like to re-use (tons of threads on how-to just use the search feature); ditch the heating pads and especially the water additive. Like was stated earlier set up a shoe-box viv and make sure the frogs are OK in there and then maybe set up a barebones viv (No bkgrnd, just the basics) w/ your newly sterilized Exo-Terra. I've seen some really sweet lookin' vivs w/ just dirt, corkbark, driftwood, and some plants. I dunno, seems like something just isn't right. Best of luck, and honestly I know it's a lot of work and I'm sure you've created a really nice setup, but sometimes success can begin w/ just some simple things. Oh, and if you do break it down, buy plenty of razor blades and a scraper to hold them. It will make your life easier. Again, best of luck.


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2006)

From a biochemical point of view those minerals could easily have an effect. A lot of vital processes rely on the proper amount/ratios of Na, K, Ca, etc. I'm not sure if the frogs would absorb them thru the skin though. Perhaps one of them is getting abs preferentially and throwing things off?


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## ccc (Nov 22, 2006)

I bought 2 leuc froglets from Black Jungle very recently myself. I lost one to my inexperience because I put them directly in the viv without putting them in the shoebox. One of them did not eat right, I did not notice in time and we lost him. I feel horrible about it. I took the other one out and it is in a shoebox now and doing awesome.

I went back last weekend and bought another leuc to replace the one that I lost, and put him directly in the shoebox and he is doing great. I am planning on leaving them in there for another week or 2 and then put them in the viv. 

Putting them in the shoebox and making sure that they are healthy and eating has worked very well for me.

Best of luck with the new frogs.

ccc


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

Where did you get the plants? Is there any possibility of fertilizer contamination or something along those lines? Once, at work, I suddenly lost a tank full of Fireelly toads within 48 hours. The frogs stopped eating, lost all motor function, and collapsed. I was mystified, until I noticed an oily substance on the light fixture over the tank - someone had dusted and sprayed pledge on the shelf over the tank. Chemical posioning can strike fast, and does not leave many visible signs.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

I've been watching this thread and have gotta say that needing a ceramic heat emitter in a pdf tank seems very bizarre and uncalled for. All of the other suggested causes seem plausible but that heater really raises some concern.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

What type of humidity gauge are you using? Many are very inaccurate, and some after getting up into the 80% or higher range for some time fail to work properly afterwords. 

Just another idea...


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## zBrinks (Jul 16, 2006)

YOu can pick up a cheap hygrometer at WalMart for $7 thats fairly accurate.


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## Guest (Dec 22, 2006)

Some more thoughts, folks. Thanks for indulging me. Your comments and suggestions, as always, are greatly appreciated. 

Yesterday I stopped by the pet store where I purchased all of my frogs. My most recent purchase of the one d. leucomela that died two days after I bought it was made a week ago today. I was curious to see how their frogs were doing, so I stopped by to take a quick look. Basically, all their frogs looked healthy. They have quite a few in their tank, and I saw many that I had seen a week ago when I made my most recent purchase. This leads me to believe that disease is likely not be a factor in the loss of my frogs. All of the frogs I purchased were housed in the same tank in this particular pet store. I’m inclined to believe that there may be something toxic in my tank, although I’m at a loss as to what that might be.

I used Great Stuff foam and GE Silicone II for windows and doors to construct my background, along with wood that was purchased from Black Jungle, so it would seem that those items are not an issue. The coco bedding I used was a mixture of “Dendro Bedding” purchased from Black Jungle and two bricks of ZooMed’s dried coco bedding, so I wouldn’t think either of those are an issue. With one exception, all of the plants that were planted before I introduced my original frogs were purchased from Black Jungle. The only exception was some packaged “Frog Moss” I purchased from PetSmart (it was a Fluker product). It didn’t do well, and I subsequently removed it. After my original frogs died I added a some more plants—several purchased from Black Jungle, and two others—an orchid and a Venus Fly Trap, both purchased locally. The Fly Trap didn’t do well, and I have removed that. The orchid is going absolutely nuts, sprouting new leaves like mad (it looks like it’s in heaven). I thought that perhaps I could have introduced some fertilizer from the orchid and/or Venus Fly Trap that could have harmed my most recent frog, but those plants weren’t in my tank when I introduced, and lost, my original frogs, so I tend to rule that out. So, where does that leave me? Not much of anywhere, unfortunately. I’m inclined to go on the hunch that there’s something toxic in the tank, so my inclination is to yank and replace all of the substrate (LECA and coco bedding) and wash off all of my plants before replanting them in the new substrate. Does that sound reasonable? The only other thing I can think of is that this is water-related, but that seems unlikely too. I originally used water from our well, which would seem to be fine given that we live out in the Vermont countryside (our well is 240’ deep, BTW), but I’ve since switched to using distilled water remineralized with the recommended dosage of mineral drops I purchased at a local health food store. Should I forget about the drops? Is it a problem to use straight distilled water? One of the books I purchased when I began my research on setting up a vivarium is “Poison Dart Frogs” by R. D. Bartlett. On page 11 it says “The quality of water that you provide for your poison frogs is of the utmost importance. It must be free of chloramines, chlorines, and other additives, yet not be distilled or derived from reverse osmosis.” That comment is footnoted as follows: “Manufacturers of reverse osmosis systems are now offering salts and minerals that enable users to reconstitute treated water. Some zoos are using this with success in their dart frog displays.” That’s why I went to the mineral drops.

Any way, I’d be curious to hear what of any more suggestions that any of you may have.

Happy holidays, and thanks again for all of your help.

David


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## Alan (Jan 12, 2005)

If you trust the source of your animals - then there is something very wrong with your viv setup. Healthy frogs do not die within 2-3 days without something seriously wrong. Whether in this case it is heat (too much or not enough) or uncured caulk... I can't say. WRT caulk - never put a frog in a viv that there is ANY scent of caulk. This usually takes several days of curing with doors/vents open.

My first comment is that you did not quarantine your newly arrived frogs. This would have allowed them to stabilize in a simple, controlled environment while you settled-in the new viv and will prevent introducing potential disease to a fully planted viv.

My second note is that your set-up is seems fairly complicated. UV heat lamp with controller, fans etc etc etc. Add to this you have added a substantial number of variables that could have caused the problem (two kinds of bedding, multiple plants from multiple outside sources, caulk etc etc. This makes isolating the cause much harder. Any one of the plants could have a pesticide residue on it.

I'd say establish and adhere to a conservative, simple quarantine regimen. Simplify your tank and run it for a few weeks while you gain control of temperature and humidity. Ensure there is no caulk or other inorganic odor - not even a slight one. Remove ANY plant that could be a pesticide/herbicide/fungicide carrier. If it were me - I would replace the bedding due to the plants and the earlier frog deaths and I would wash the inside of the viv VERY well.

Good luck.


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

Here's my opinion: Start simple, it's your first frogs there is no need for all the fancy heat, misting, humidity, uv, etc, etc. Get a 10 gallon tank with a screen top, yes I said a screen top, put 2 inches of clean gravel covered with an inch of premium sphagnum. Keep an inch and a half of water in it (you will have to add water every other day or so) but this will provide all the humidity you need. Provide some cover in the form of some ivy or a piece of fake wood and that's all you need to start. Keep it simple when you are just starting out, there are way too many parameters for things to go wrong with your current setup especially when you are just beginning with these animals. I've been doing this a long time and this setup has NEVER failed.

Just my opinion,
Robb


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> Here's my opinion: Start simple, it's your first frogs there is no need for all the fancy heat, misting, humidity, uv, etc, etc. Get a 10 gallon tank with a screen top, yes I said a screen top, put 2 inches of clean gravel covered with an inch of premium sphagnum.


Robb, I think this is excellent advice except I think I should mention that if I put frogs in a tank with a screen top in my house - even with an inch of water under the gravel - they would be dead in a few days. I would say as a rough rule. If your normal house humidity is 50% or more, then the screen top is fine. If it is less, you should be prepared to cover part of the top with plastic. Even in the single digit humidity of my home, covering 75% of the top with plastic should work for that setup although I would have to add water every day.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2006)

I would agree with others too, keep it simple to start with.

It is very easy to make the mistake of getting overcomplicated, though at the time you can be feeling like you have to cover every variable and then twice to make sure you are doing the best for your frogs.

What did you say the ambient temperature was in your house/apartment? (i'm not sure you did, but i forgot from reading the rest of the topic)..

How old were the frogs when you bought them, or roughly what size were they?

Regards

Steve


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## black_envy (Aug 12, 2006)

Personally, I don't think you should rule out disease/sickness in the frogs simply because they looked healthy. I have heard that the healthiest looking frogs are the ones full of parasites, so I almost think that if you have no ideas about your tank, you should try another source (maybe buy online) and see if these frogs fare any better. I don't know that I trust your petstore...


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

bbrock said:


> Robb, I think this is excellent advice except I think I should mention that if I put frogs in a tank with a screen top in my house - even with an inch of water under the gravel - they would be dead in a few days. I would say as a rough rule. If your normal house humidity is 50% or more, then the screen top is fine. If it is less, you should be prepared to cover part of the top with plastic. Even in the single digit humidity of my home, covering 75% of the top with plastic should work for that setup although I would have to add water every day.


So you're saying the sphagnum would dry out? In the winter here, humidity in my house goes down into the 30% range and all my tanks are screen tops and I've never had a problem. I've got lights on top which block some of the air flow but I would think as long as the sphagnum is moist the frogs would stay hydrated.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

rmelancon said:


> So you're saying the sphagnum would dry out?


If I didn't add water daily, yes, it would dry out. It isn't unusual to see winter humidity of 10%, and sometimes less, inside the house. An inch of water under the gravel could easily be almost evaporated within 24 hours. The sphagnum moss would likely stay moist for another day but if I forgot to add fresh water, it would be over for the frogs in 2-3 days. Much easier and safer for me to add a little covering to retain humidity. I'm not disagreeing with your advice to provide ventilation though. Just pointing out that a screen top may need adjustment depending on local climate.

I've posted this story befor from when I lived in Kansas. The winter ambient humidity in the house ran around 30-50%. I added a small computer fan running at half speed to several vivaria to cool the lights by increasing ventilation through the vivaria. My auratus became very shy and never came out except during feeding. The vivarium had a water feature that covered about 20% of the floor surface and a fogger that fogged the tank for 5 minutes every hour. I figured humidity could not be a problem but tossed a hygrometer in just to see. I was shocked. When the fogger came on, the hygrometer maxed out. But within 1 minute of the fogger shutting off, the humidity started to fall. By the time the next fogger cycle kicked on, the humidity had fallen to around 50%. I shut off the fan and within 30 minutes the auratus were out hopping around again and were never "shy" again. It is still hard for me to believe that little fan was able to drop the humidity in an otherwise wet vivarium so much.


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## BIGGUN (Dec 16, 2006)

You said you use drops from a health store.

Is the demand for humans and frogs close enough to the same?

Do they make a remineralizer for amphibians?

Kevin


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## jundox (Jul 5, 2007)

ditylmb said:


> I used GE Silicone II for windows and doors, so I didn’t skimp on materials.


Check the silicone you used... does it say bioseal, mold and mildew resistant? I've read a few places that the mold/mildew inhibitors can contaminate a water supply. I've only seen GE II windows and doors with Bio Seal so maybe DAP 100% silicone is a better choice. 

Edit:
Apparently bioseal has always been in GE II window & door, but it does say on the back not to use for aquarium use... Their site says only use IS808 for aquariums.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Based on what I read through, I think the ventilation is the problem. Maybe the temps and the humidity are okay but the plant growth is a little bit (I think of the key here..)
You have a lot of moist organic matter and are inputing at least some nitrogen into the system and have a tightly sealed container...
Plants excrete CO2 at night... bacterial decomp of the organic matter releases CO2 at night.. and the addition of live insects and frogs will also release CO2. As the tank isn't vented its possible that the frogs are slowly getting CO2 poisoning (or at night as the plants and bacteria consume O2 oxygen deprivation in addition to the CO2 poisioning. While herps are somewhat resistant to CO2 poisoning it will kill them over time. In addition, the warm temps will speed up the release of CO2 as well as increasing the metabolic needs of the frogs... 

I would also suggest that the heating element is not necessary. Temps in the mid to low 70s are perfectly fine for the frogs. 

Ed


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## Frank H (Nov 3, 2005)

Dont rule out stress. A frog can live with a parasite just fine, untill it gets stressed out. A stressed frog will be vulnerable to the parasite it is carrying.. Although I dont know if death can happen in just a few days.

just a thought.


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Most likely pesticide or fertilizer from some of the plants you purchased. Look for any bb size fertilizer pellets. I use all glass tops on over 100 tanks and have never had a problem w/ it being too humid or not enough air flow.


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## jojopotato25 (Jan 7, 2007)

are fertlizer pellets white and kinda grainy?


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

time released usually looks like little salmon eggs. they are round and usually a dull yellowish color. white and grainy may be perlite which is also bad. they can ingest the ff and the perlite which could lead to impaction.


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