# My first (and probably last) time shipping frogs



## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

While I have recieved several shipments of frogs in the past I have never shipped before. I just don't feel comfortable letting a 3rd person who could give a damn about my animals well being handle them.

But...I have been promising a good budy of mine for a while now that I would send him some varaderos. After he has waited paitently for damn near a year I grew a pair and shipped some out to him. 

I may have gone overboard a bit with packaging but after reading so many bad transactions with shipping companies over the past few days I didn't want to take any chances (not with my precious babies) 

Packing exterior 14x14x14 fedex box 

Contents 10x10x14 3/4" styrofoam cooler 

our weather on both ends will be fairly mild Lows around 50's highs mid 70's so I decided a heat or cold pack would be too extreme. Instead used two phase 22 panels. One taped to the bottom and one to the top.










Taped the one to the bottom and then placed two layers of bubble wrap. ontop.

Then the frogs packed in deli cups with just moist paper towel and pothos. I have read horror stories about frogs getting smashed with spagnum. Then with air pillows in between them










The precious contents of said cups




























Then another layer of bubble wrap ontop of them.

Then I tossed in a few extra items just cause I like the guy. I wasn't too worried about the plants since they where being overnighted. I then filled the remaining space of the container with bubble wrap so there would be no movement.










Since the box was bigger than the cooler I wedged even more sytrofoam insulation to keep the box from being smashed and extra insulation. 










and two layers of foam ontop to complete the packing job! 










Should be able to stand on this box without denting it :mrgreen: 

Now to sit around for the next 24 hours praying my little guys make it to their destination safely and in a timely mannor...c'mon fedex no wammie :roll:


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## ExoticPocket (Dec 23, 2010)

Haha. Thats a lot of styrofoam!! I think it will get the job done though. What's the plant with the white spots on it?


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I don't remember the exact name but its a type of begonia. Gets pretty pink flowers.


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## dmartin72 (Oct 27, 2004)

You'll be fine!


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

lol, I know. Just I cherish all of my frogs even the ones that go elsewhere. I feel like I just gave one of my kids up for adoption and just gave them a bus ticket and said "off you go" ...ok, well I might feel a little worse than that


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## MichelleSG (May 1, 2010)

Overnight am arrival hub to hub, last moment drop off earliest pick up? Those are the only other things within your control so you might as well go all the way. Time in a delivery truck is bad, they have no climate control in those things.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

That looks very nicely packed! My Vanzos were packed similarly and survived *10 DAYS* being lost by USPS! I am quite certain your packing job could survive days. Am I correct in assuming that the destination would be Colorado? If so, we have a mutual friend and he will take very good care of them!
When you see this go off without a hitch, I'll bet you might consider shipping again!


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> That looks very nicely packed! My Vanzos were packed similarly and survived *10 DAYS* being lost by USPS! I am quite certain your packing job could survive days. Am I correct in assuming that the destination would be Colorado? If so, we have a mutual friend and he will take very good care of them!
> When you see this go off without a hitch, I'll bet you might consider shipping again!


yea they are going to keith. ... we shall see I will have to start charging more if I start shipping.. lol


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

I shipped two containers last week for the first time ever, and I was like you...nervous....but everything made it safely....


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## Woodsman (Jan 3, 2008)

Hi D3monic,

The only advice I would give you for the future is that I wouldn't put the wet paper towel in the frog cups. Like the sphagnum moss, I can imagine that (when the box gets tipped upside down) the frogs could get trapped in the towel. I use a lot of plant cuttings in my cups, enough to cushion the frogs even if they turn upside down, spray the whole cup down with water mist, then drain off the extra water (I have received some frogs that ended-up drowing in too much water). My favorite plant to add are some different Selaginella species.

Other than that, everything looks good. Fingers crossed!

Take care, Richard.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

D3monic said:


> yea they are going to keith. ... we shall see I will have to start charging more if I start shipping.. lol


I thought so! Keith is working a pair of Escudo he got from me. Yes, you'll have to up your rock bottom pricing if you start shipping. Materials and more than that, time and potential losses take a chunk out of your wallet!


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Sphagnum can be used if you don't make it soaking wet (squeeze it out after fully rehydrating it) and then fluff it up. If it is just moist and fluffed up, it doesn't pack down and the frogs can navigate around if the box is rotated, spun or left upside down. You also don't need a lot of moss.. just enough to provide some security and moisture. 

Ed


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> Sphagnum can be used if you don't make it soaking wet (squeeze it out after fully rehydrating it) and then fluff it up. If it is just moist and fluffed up, it doesn't pack down and the frogs can navigate around if the box is rotated, spun or left upside down. You also don't need a lot of moss.. just enough to provide some security and moisture.
> 
> Ed


That's how I did my 10 day Vanzos, Ed.


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

Like Woodsman said I remember seeing a post about a year ago where someone commented their frog got trapped under a wet paper towel in transit. It didn't end well. 

Here's a link I bookmarked from early last month where people were talking about shipping with phase panels. At the bottom of page 1 Pumilo has some pics how he ships his frogs with plants for cushioning, similar to what Woodsman was talking about. 

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/66509-shipping-phase-panels-example.html

BTW, I hope this isn't your last shipment of frogs. I've had you marked down for a while as a proud keeper of Varaderos. Those are certainly on my "when I'm ready" list. Of course that wont be for a few years yet.


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## skylsdale (Sep 16, 2007)

Ed said:


> Sphagnum can be used if you don't make it soaking wet (squeeze it out after fully rehydrating it) and then fluff it up. If it is just moist and fluffed up, it doesn't pack down and the frogs can navigate around if the box is rotated, spun or left upside down. You also don't need a lot of moss.. just enough to provide some security and moisture.


This is what I do, as well as a large cutting of Philodendron with a few leaves. This provides gaps and spaces from the moss even if they do get flipped/spun around.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

I might just try stuffing with plants next time. I would of done it this time but all my pothos died. I had two pots hanging in the window and they got too much sun. I borrowed as much as I could from my froglet growout bins. 

Just like everyone has a favorite shipping vendor people have favorite shipping methods. 

I just remembered a long thread a few months ago about shipping with spagnum and the horror stories. I have received frog orders with both paper towel and spagnum successfully so i wasn't really sure which way to go. 

For what its worth after I packed the single towel square into the cups I turned it upside down and shook the crap out of it to make sure it wouldn't just fall over. 

I never seen the packing full of plants but makes sense. Most shipments I have seen only had a clipping or two. 

thanks guys for the future tips.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Tadbit said:


> Like Woodsman said I remember seeing a post about a year ago where someone commented their frog got trapped under a wet paper towel in transit. It didn't end well.
> 
> Here's a link I bookmarked from early last month where people were talking about shipping with phase panels. At the bottom of page 1 Pumilo has some pics how he ships his frogs with plants for cushioning, similar to what Woodsman was talking about.
> 
> ...


Hey Tadbit, just a reminder on that thread you linked. While I do ship similarly to that, I just took the photos for you guys. That was Stemcellular's awesome packing job.


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

Ahhh that's right! Sorry I knew I had that bookmarked and it was a great illustration. A picture is worth a thousand words, and all that. 

I just knew approximately where it was and I knew you posted it. Kudos to Stemcellular for doing it and you for posting it then!


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Interesting way to pack and ship frogs, Anyway i do have questions, for the container that u guys pack the frogs in with leaves or moist dead sphagnum moss does it have any small holes for breathing? 

For an example how many frogs can you put in a 6x6x3(h) inch plastic container(no breathing holes) with moist sphagnum moss in a styrofoam container with 2 panel 22 to ship for like 36hours by Fedex cargo? The reason i am asking this is because i am worried about the oxgen level in the plastic container would it be enough for the frogs during the shipping ??

thks


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Crazy frog said:


> Interesting way to pack and ship frogs, Anyway i do have questions, for the container that u guys pack the frogs in with leaves or moist dead sphagnum moss does it have any small holes for breathing?
> 
> For an example how many frogs can you put in a 6x6x3(h) inch plastic container(no breathing holes) with moist sphagnum moss in a styrofoam container with 2 panel 22 to ship for like 36hours by Fedex cargo? The reason i am asking this is because i am worried about the oxgen level in the plastic container would it be enough for the frogs during the shipping ??
> 
> thks


I use 2 or 4 oz (very small) deli cups and only put one frog per cup in. The bigger the container, the harder the frogs can bounce from wall to wall when the box bounces around. I use a large safety pin and punch a dozen or so holes around the sides of the cup, up high near the lid. I don't like bigger holes as I'm afraid a frog could possibly get his leg stuck through it. It may not sound like much for airflow, but it gave my Vanzo's 10 days worth. On a bigger frog I would go with bigger holes but still smaller than your frogs toe. You can always add more holes instead of bigger holes.
One more thing concerning oxygen. Traditional heat packs are using oxygen to create the heat. Phase 22 packs use NO oxygen.


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## Crazy frog (Aug 8, 2010)

Pumilo said:


> I use 2 or 4 oz (very small) deli cups and only put one frog per cup in. The bigger the container, the harder the frogs can bounce from wall to wall when the box bounces around. I use a large safety pin and punch a dozen or so holes around the sides of the cup, up high near the lid. I don't like bigger holes as I'm afraid a frog could possibly get his leg stuck through it. It may not sound like much for airflow, but it gave my Vanzo's 10
> 
> Yup i was intending of using 2-4oz deli cups but punching dozen of holes?? Then how would you hold the humdity in the cups?? using moist moss? cause i had read up some where in this forum there is a case that the frog dry ups due too, container had to much holes punched and wasnt able to hold the safe humdity level for the frogs and the shipping time was around 12hours only compare to mine which will be might be 30hour ++.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

With respect to the holes, keep in mind that you should punch the holes from the inside of the cup to the outside of the container if using something other than a hole punch. The reason for this is that punctures like from a safety pin create rough spots on the inside of the cup which can result in scrapes and cuts on a shipped frog. 

One of the ways to get around this is to use fruit fly cups with the poly lids. They allow air to circulate while doing a decent job of holding in the moisture. Some of the shallower cups actually fit the fruit fly cup lids and can be used by those who prefer smaller containers. 

Ed


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

Crazy frog;601998
For an example how many frogs can you put in a 6x6x3(h) inch plastic container(no breathing holes) with moist sphagnum moss in a styrofoam container with 2 panel 22 to ship for like 36hours by Fedex cargo? The reason i am asking this is because i am worried about the oxgen level in the plastic container would it be enough for the frogs during the shipping ??
thks[/QUOTE said:


> That container is way too big....too much room to bounce around. Like Doug said, the smaller the better.....4 oz to 8 oz containers are plenty. When I receive frogs from Patrick Nabors, they always come individually in cups that are 2 oz or 4 oz condiment cups. And he ships a couple thousand frogs each year, according to his website.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Ed said:


> With respect to the holes, keep in mind that you should punch the holes from the inside of the cup to the outside of the container if using something other than a hole punch. The reason for this is that punctures like from a safety pin create rough spots on the inside of the cup which can result in scrapes and cuts on a shipped frog.
> Ed


That's a good point Ed. You could also do it with a heated pin which will melt the holes smooth.



Crazy frog said:


> Pumilo said:
> 
> 
> > I use 2 or 4 oz (very small) deli cups and only put one frog per cup in. The bigger the container, the harder the frogs can bounce from wall to wall when the box bounces around. I use a large safety pin and punch a dozen or so holes around the sides of the cup, up high near the lid. I don't like bigger holes as I'm afraid a frog could possibly get his leg stuck through it. It may not sound like much for airflow, but it gave my Vanzo's 10
> ...


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Frogs arrived safe and sound. i can breath again


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

Sweet! Good to hear.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

That's good to hear Mike.....


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## illinoisfrogs (Apr 16, 2010)

D3monic said:


> Frogs arrived safe and sound. i can breath again


Which means you'll be shipping again sometime!


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## rcteem (Mar 24, 2009)

D3monic said:


> I don't remember the exact name but its a type of begonia. Gets pretty pink flowers.


Dragon Wing


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

lincolnrailers said:


> Which means you'll be shipping again sometime!


Maybe, not sure I am ready to go gray just yet.


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## dunky (Dec 17, 2009)

Glad to hear they made it safe and sound. I'd imagine I'd be terrified if I was shipping anything live, as I get pretty nervous even when shipping things that don't depend on temps/transit time lol.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

WTF!!! Just got the following in a email from Fedex

Please be advised of the rate changes to your shipment 794797736016 dated 2011-05-25. FedEx has reviewed this shipment for correct pieces, weight, and service. Any changes made are reflected in the invoice amount. 

The final rated amount of your shipment is $133.55 compared to the original rate quote of $73.84. Please consult the applicable FedEx Service Guide for details. 

Sincerely, FedEx Billing Online 

I call complete BS!!!!! I had the weight and sevice right. I even rounded up to the nearest pound. How the hell can they get away with this???

Do they pull this BS often? These where going to a friend of mine, I only charged him $180 with free shipping..........to answer previously. F*** no I am not shipping again!


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

D3monic said:


> WTF!!! Just got the following in a email from Fedex
> 
> Please be advised of the rate changes to your shipment 794797736016 dated 2011-05-25. FedEx has reviewed this shipment for correct pieces, weight, and service. Any changes made are reflected in the invoice amount.
> 
> ...


I had almost the exact same thing happen to me except not even a courtesy email. Just a shipment that was supposed to cost $80 turned into $166! I don't see how it's possible for it to increase that much. Needless to say I was not amused.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Whats weird is I registered with one email account and they sent that to a different email account of mine...but they had the quote and tracking number right.....


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

I would tell them to stuff it up the arse.....They can't turn around after the package has been delivered and say "You owe us some more money" I mean they can try but I wouldn't let them get away with that kinda BS......IF they charged your CC account or something I would dispute the charges over what you paid them....In the 100's of packages I have shipped of live coral I have never had any shipping carrier try and readjust the amount for shipping..... Afterwards like that.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

What is even more BS is I have scoured my emails and I can not find a invoice for the life of me so I have no proof of what they origionally charged me.....I try to log into my account on FedEx and when ever I click manage account it says a error occured....


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## tachikoma (Apr 16, 2009)

D3monic said:


> What is even more BS is I have scoured my emails and I can not find a invoice for the life of me so I have no proof of what they origionally charged me.....I try to log into my account on FedEx and when ever I click manage account it says a error occured....


Yep it's impossible to find a package in your account thats already been delivered. I can't find a record of it anywhere, so infuriating. Go to manage account and says no packages to manage.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Your CC company should have a record of what it was intially charged and what it was changed to.......I would call them, if you have it charged to a CC.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Charged to my debit. Still pending for the origional amount so i will have to wait until it clears. ....Just a shitty week all around, my mom died the morning I shipped these frogs out, my check wasn't enough to pay the mortgage for some unknown reason and now this BS.


Can we change the thread title to My first (and definatly Last) time shipping.


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## Azurel (Aug 5, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your Mom bro......Sounds like the theroy of 3's or in resemblance of the weather....Crappy!


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

I'm very sorry about your mom. 

Both FedEx and UPS have rates calculated based on weight and on dimensions. Did you enter the dimensions of the package when you completed the online shipping form? If not, then that would explain the difference in cost. For a lightweight box, the shipping charges are almost always based on dimensions for next-day delivery. They even offer three types of next day - First Overnight (by 8:30 am), Priority Overnight (by 10:30 am), and Standard Overnight (by 3:00 pm).

First Overnight is as much as double Priority, which is usually only 10-25% more than Standard. In my opinion, you don't get much additional protection for the frogs choosing First Overnight. A better packing job and packing just before dropping the package off close to the cutoff time the afternoon before can more than compensate for the extra two hours in the morning. In reality, the Priority package will probably arrive at the local hub at the same time as the First Overnight package. I always have live animals delivered to the FedEx store near my office. Boxes shipped Priority have always arrived before 10:30.

Anyway, always remember to enter the dimensions when you are getting a quote and/or when you are shipping the package.

I also learned something about UPS and FedEx Ground charges because I have shipped hundreds of pounds of leaves. Both services apply a rate change at 3 cubic feet in box size. Again, if you enter the dimensions of the box (rounding up to the nearest inch in each dimension) as well as the weight, the electronic form will charge based on the weight if the LxWxH is less than (not equal to) 5,184 cubic inches (precisely 3 cubic feet). If the dimensions are 3 cubic feet or higher, they calculate the "dimensional weight" on which to base charges. The formula UPS uses is LxWxH divided by 194. The resulting value is the "dimensional weight" and charges are based on that weight in pounds.

I buy Medium packing boxes at Home Depot to ship leaves. The box states that it has a capacity of 3 cf. However, that is the internal capacity. Shipping is based on external dimensions. The boxes are 18.25x18x16, or 5,256 cubic inches; however, the shipping company will round up and tag this box as 19x18x16 = 5,472 cubic inches divided by 194 = 28.2 pounds "dimensional weight". A box of leaves that size weighs 4-8 pounds. I have to cut these boxes down one inch, making the shipping dimensions 19x18x15 (5,130 cubic inches) to get the lower (much lower) rate.

For example, if I ship the unaltered box to Denver and it weighed 4 pounds, the UPS Ground charge would be based on 28.2 pounds and cost $39.69. If I cut the box down 1 inch and it still weighs 4 pounds, the cost would be $12.26.

I learned this the hard way when I didn't make any money on my first shipments of large quantities of leaves. Even though the receipt might say $12.26, when the UPS bill comes to my office, and it's time to reimburse my company (I use our account because we get more favorable rates), there would be a correction of an additional charge of $27.53.

One last point. If you ship to a residence, it can cost quite a bit more than shipping to a business. So, if you are paying for the shipping, I'd advise picking up at the nearest hub or having it shipped to your work or other business address if you can.

D3monic, FedEx will charge your debit account for the full amount unless you dispute the additional charge. Since the pending charge effectively represents your initial quote, your lender might be willing to reject the additional charges.

Sorry to go on so long, but I do hope this helps someone.


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## D3monic (Feb 8, 2010)

Thanks, i did not see an option to enter box dementions online. Only box weight. I even wondered about that. i will definatly be contesting the charges when the time comes.


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## Tadbit (Jul 16, 2010)

Very sorry to hear about your mom.


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## JimO (May 14, 2010)

The field to enter dimensions for FedEx only shows up if you select a "Get detailed quote". Then, you need to select "Package Type" and click on "Your packaging" before the field for entering dimensions pops up.

It almost seems intentional to let someone get a quote or ship using the website without making it mandatory to enter the package type (FedEx box or other) and dimensions.


D3monic said:


> Thanks, i did not see an option to enter box dementions online. Only box weight. I even wondered about that. i will definatly be contesting the charges when the time comes.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

So...what happens with FedEx when you dispute the charges? Do they cancel your account if you don't pay it?

This is terrible! I recently signed up with FedEx through Ship Your Reptiles. There's no way I could afford to "eat" a charge like that after the fact. Scary...

D3monic... My sincere condolences on the passing of your mother. I lost my dad 16 years ago. The sadness never truly goes away...but it does get easier over time.


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