# frogs not doing well in quarentine



## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

i have an intermedius that i got a few months ago and i got a fecal done on it and it turns out it has massive hookworm. i have treated a lot of frogs with panacur with great results so i am trying to do the same with this one. the only problem is the frog seems to be getting worse. it has been in quarentine for 1.5 monthsish. i know the min. is 1 month but i am 99.99% sure this frog still has parasites. what should i do? it's tank now is 2.5 gallons with film canasters and the tank is jam packed with oak leaves. it is eating ff and i put a lot of springtails in. it is eating, but not enough. what should i do? i think it might die if i don't do anything.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

what other foods have you tried? try some fruit fly larvae as they are high in fat and help it gained weight faster.


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

i thought of that, and i ran it by frognet and they said that while the larvae are good for healthy frogs they arn't easily digested by weak ones. they don't die immediatly when the frog eats them, and sometimes are alive in the body. don't want to risk it on a sick frog. thanks.


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## Julio (Oct 8, 2007)

well if you can get your hands on some small wax worms or termites those are better if you are sure that the frogs still has parasites, run another fecal and see how that comes in and treat the frog again.


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## kyle1745 (Feb 15, 2004)

Stick with the FF larva for a smaller frog. How is the quarantine container setup? Lots of hiding? leaf litter? any springtales? Is it cleaned out often?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Have you stripped the cage out between treatments? If not then the frog would simply get reinfected.... and/or increasing infection levels through continual exposure. 

Ed


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## AQUAMAC (Jul 27, 2004)

Also, if you are using Panacur dust on the flies and the frog isn’t eating them or taking in enough of the meds, you could have some problems treating it. Panacur is nice because it is easy to treat with but the dusting method isnt always effective (if the frog isn’t eating etc).. You may want to try Levamisole (topically) for a more precise dosage (this is especially effective on frogs that are not eating normally).

Good luck,

Mike
Treetop Botanicals


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

the cage is 2.5 gallons, w/ papertowel bottom. the tank is crammed full of oak leaves and black film canasters. humidity is 80-90%, temp is around 73-75. gets misted every other day with bottled water. i am cleaning the tank out the day after i give panacur. but i don't think it's eating very much. there is also a papercup filled with tons of tropical springtails. i clean the tank out about every 3ish days, one time the day after i treat it, and the other sometime inbetween treatments. i saw the frog last night and i thought it was dead. it was all stretched out. i wasn't 100% sure so i didn't take it out. the next morning it had moved so i guess it wasn't dead. what is Levamisole and where can i get it? thanks.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Just cleaning out the tank isn't enough. you need to disinfect as the larva can survive on the wet surface... 

Ed


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

i take the frog out and then take everything out and clean with a papertowel dunked in 5-10% bleach solution then rinse a lot. is that considered disinfecting? before i put the frog back in a dry it pretty well. also, i had a group of whites treefrogs that i treated for lungworm and hookworm, i didn't ever disinfect their tank, just wiped it down every 4 or 5 days. they were in there for 2.5 months and i sent two fecals in and they were clean. their tank was kept pretty moist as well. so what do you think made the larvae not live?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

If the frog is not stressed then you may not see any larva or eggs in the fecals.

The typical recommendation is at least a 15 minute contact time for effective disinfection. 

Ed


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

so when i send the fecals off even if it comes back negative they could still have stuff? i am 15 so the cash doesn't come easy, does that mean i have to get 2+ fecals done each time? 

on a side note...in the herptoculture of leopard geckos by ron tremper i remember reading that it can take 3+ fecals to find coccidia. that sux.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Yes a negative fecal doesn't mean that the animal doesn't have parasites (see my post in your poll...) it simply means that it isn't shedding at that time. 

A healthy unstressed animal may not be shedding and may show no signs of an infection and maybe able to handle the infection until such a time as it gets stressed or ill for some other reason. 

With some parasite infections, monitoring the level of infection may be all that is necessary (talk to your vet about this option) however some parasites like hookworm and lungworms can build up to super infections as they produce larva that are capable of directly infecting the frog by burrowing through thier skin and do not need an intermediate host. These typically need to be resolved. If the tank is not disinfected then the larva can continue to reinfect the frog inbetween treatments. 
With respect to your white's treefrogs, depending on the timeline where you tested them after treatment you could also have gotten a negative fecal because you eliminated the reproductive adults and had the fecals checked before the next crop of worms reached the reproductive age and began to pass eggs. 

Ed


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## Otis (Apr 16, 2006)

uhh, some of those worms can be nasty. how many fecals do you reccomend sending off to make sure the frogs are rid of them? when i send them off there is more than 1 fecal, more like 5-6 depending on the frog. i send them to frye and i'm not sure if he checks all of them or what...

as far as the whites, they probably still have a little, but they are baseball size and so hardy. i just wanted the levels to be managable. and i still occasiionally dust their food with panacur. 
thank you soooo much for all the info Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

otis07 said:


> uhh, some of those worms can be nasty. how many fecals do you reccomend sending off to make sure the frogs are rid of them? when i send them off there is more than 1 fecal, more like 5-6 depending on the frog. i send them to frye and i'm not sure if he checks all of them or what...
> 
> as far as the whites, they probably still have a little, but they are baseball size and so hardy. i just wanted the levels to be managable. and i still occasiionally dust their food with panacur.
> thank you soooo much for all the info Ed


Well if you want them to be managable then stop dusting thier food with panacure on occasion. All you are doing is selecting for resistance in the worms. This can be a real problem. 
You should not be treating for worms unless they have a positive fecal and given the size of the White's I have the strong suspicion that you are underdosing the frogs which is only going to speed the selection of resistance in the parasites. If you have cross contaminination then this could be part of the problem with the hookworms not clearing from the dart frogs. You may need to go to a different wormer like ivermectin. 

Typically three fecals collected within 7-14 days from the last fecal. You want the freshest fecal as possible. 


Ed


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