# Sky blue azureus



## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Just picked a few of these up recently, and they are just spectacular. I just had to share them. The pictures really don't them any justice. The two pictured have almost no black at all. These are around 5 months old I would say.


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## Nismo95 (Jul 30, 2011)

I was really turned off by this when they were first brought up.. Didnt like the idea and there were a lot of things floating around about breeding them to be this way.. Whichever way that arguement went I dont care anymore.. Those are some gorgeous frogs Josh, I am glad you got them and hope the work out well for you!! Now, post some pics of those Vulture Points  I miss them already!


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Thanks! Pics of the Vulture Points will be up soon. Regardless what people think of these, most don't know how diverse this bloodline actually is. It is not a heavily inbred line as most think, but was created using four separate bloodlines. Some of them do look normal, but they throw a majority of sky blue reduced pattern offspring. A female or two used for breeding these down at Sean's look like normal azureus, but are producing these. I love them


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Gorgeous lil guys! Congrats!


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## wjesse (Jan 27, 2008)

Those are pretty rare, where did you pick them up at?


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

From Barbara Stewart. That is the only place I know that has them. They are amazing though. Just beautiful frogs


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

wjesse said:


> Those are pretty rare, where did you pick them up at?


Actually they are becoming less and less rare. Josh's frogs has them in stock regularly and I have seen them for sale on the board more than once. It seems like it has become more of an accepted frog then it used to be. I still am not very fond of it, but that is just me.


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## Halter (Jul 28, 2012)

Beautiful frogs....how much does a baby like this cost if you dont mind sharing? Never seen azures like that before

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

Elliot said:


> Actually they are becoming less and less rare. Josh's frogs has them in stock regularly and I have seen them for sale on the board more than once. It seems like it has become more of an accepted frog then it used to be. I still am not very fond of it, but that is just me.


Josh's does not have sky blue azureus like this that were selectively bred over several generations. 

He has Wattley line frogs, which are completely different.

From his website:


> Azureus are one of the most bold and widely sought after poison dart frogs in the hobby and get over 2" long. Azureus do best in pairs as fighting amoung frogs of the same sex is quite common. These are F3 animals from frogs originally imported by Jack Wattley, a well known discus fish breeder. Dendrobates tinctorius 'Azureus' - Wattley Line are most likely unrelated to most other azureus in the hobby, and a great for outcrossing your animals and providing a bit of genetic diversity. These azureus also tend to display a little less black than most azureus (the animal pictured is exceptional), but are not line bred for that trait.


(http://www.joshsfrogs.com/dendrobates-tinctorius-azureus-wattley.html)


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## r.avalos (Apr 10, 2013)

Can't say this enough, you have beautiful frogs btw how new is the sky blue bloodline？


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I was looking for a link concerning the origin of Stewart's selectively bred Azureus, but it seems to have been removed.
The Stewart line of Sky Blue Azureus is a selectively bred color morph. How much line breeding was done to create the line, is unknown.
Just keep in mind that it is a genetically manipulated line.


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

For those who left compliments, thanks. As far as how long he has had them, I am not quite sure. I first seen them about 7 years ago I believe down there. I know not many have been released and there was a considerable waiting list for them so apparently they aren't a problem for a lot of folks. As far as the origin, they were created from NAIB azureus, and three others. I am not sure if Wattley line was in there or not. If you email them, they will tell you. It's not like it is a big secret or anything. Anyways, this thread wasn't about if people liked the frog or not, I was just sharing some pics of beautiful frogs. I don't want to start a debate on them or anything.


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

carola1155 said:


> Josh's does not have sky blue azureus like this that were selectively bred over several generations.
> 
> He has Wattley line frogs, which are completely different.
> 
> ...


Ok, that makes more sense now. Thanks for pointing that out. I think I noticed that it said "Wattley Line"on there website awhile back, but the picture just made me assume that they were sky blue. I never did (or ever really do) read the description he has on the frog.


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## Willowalker (Sep 8, 2009)

While I am against selective breeding, the frogs are beautiful and look healthy. 

Thanks to the OP for posting pictures!

-Willow


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

You know its funny, that no one ever posts when these frogs are offered for sale that they have a problem with them. But when a guy that just happens to have them posts pictures of them, people have to let their opinion voice. While I respect everyone is allowed to have an opinion on them, why is there no outcry when they are offered for sale on the board every month? And like I said, I am def not the only person with these frogs here. I am just the only one posting pictures of them, because they are awesome and I want to share them with everyone. But I really did not have any intention of stirring a selective breeding debate. Mainly because people pick and choose what they think selective breeding is. Patrick Nabors has been selling "fine spot" azureus for years(no one seems to mind). They cost more and are produced with the effort of having a reduced patter. Which is a very similar thing. The hold backs are the ones with very little spots that he uses for future breeding. Same thing with the reginas and giant orange with less black and vibrant orange, they get held back by breeders for their personal stock. Recently it looks as though the varadero with almost solid orange backs are the hold backs for breeders. They exist, but you don't see many for sale when there are plenty of varadero available. And it definitely applies to pumilio, they are so variable, BUT the ones the breeder likes the most for whatever reason, is being held back. Even though the intention is not really to line breed with those frogs, in a round about way, it is what is being done (not to the extent of what we are discussing here). If you are breeding, you keep what you think are the best animals back to raise up for future breeding projects. Now regardless of why you kept that animal back, you have a specific reason. It was larger, had a better pattern, more vibrant color, reduced pattern, etc... you had a reason to keep that particular animal. Now I am not saying I agree with selectively breeding a trait into a frog over many generations, but honestly the majority of folks don't know how these were created and just make assumptions. Now if I was offering the animals for sale, I would expect a little backlash I suppose and then I could see the debate coming up, but I did not expect it when I am just sharing photos. If it makes anyone feel better though these will be paired up with my normal azureus I got from Gooding Exotics (who posted here as well) which are beautiful. Just with more spots lol


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## ZookeeperDoug (Jun 5, 2011)

When they are offered for sale there isp no outcry because that kind of commentary is prohibited in that section of the forms. People do take notice. 

Some people DO mind that Patrick Nabors offers fine spot Azureu, you're mistaken that that issue is not of concern for many.

You make very good point otherwise about how we as froggers choose to hold back frogs.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm sorry you seem to be so offended by my comment. It seems like the only real backlash and debate about selective breeding, is coming from you. All I did was was point out that they are a selectively bred (or genetically manipulated) frog. Which they are. I stated a fact which I believe the hobby should be aware of. I did not roast you.
As far as why threads like this get comments, and ads for them do not, it's because DendroBoard rules do not allow comments in for sale ads. When the mods see comments on ads, they are promptly removed and the poster is either warned, or receives an infraction.
Honestly, I see absolutely no roast going on here. A comment was made, that's all. I said absolutely NOTHING against you, or your frogging practices.


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## RobR (Dec 24, 2011)

Nice frogs man, I like them! Why aren't concerns brought up every time EU Vanzolini pictures are posted? Is smuggling a good thing for the hobby?
He enjoys his frogs and wanted to share them. It's like you posting a picture of your newborn on Facebook and someone commenting " looks like your mailman"


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

pafrogguy said:


> You know its funny, that no one ever posts when these frogs are offered for sale that they have a problem with them. But when a guy that just happens to have them posts pictures of them, people have to let their opinion voice. While I respect everyone is allowed to have an opinion on them, why is there no outcry when they are offered for sale on the board every month? And like I said, I am def not the only person with these frogs here. I am just the only one posting pictures of them, because they are awesome and I want to share them with everyone. But I really did not have any intention of stirring a selective breeding debate. Mainly because people pick and choose what they think selective breeding is. Patrick Nabors has been selling "fine spot" azureus for years(no one seems to mind). They cost more and are produced with the effort of having a reduced patter. Which is a very similar thing. The hold backs are the ones with very little spots that he uses for future breeding. Same thing with the reginas and giant orange with less black and vibrant orange, they get held back by breeders for their personal stock. Recently it looks as though the varadero with almost solid orange backs are the hold backs for breeders. They exist, but you don't see many for sale when there are plenty of varadero available. And it definitely applies to pumilio, they are so variable, BUT the ones the breeder likes the most for whatever reason, is being held back. Even though the intention is not really to line breed with those frogs, in a round about way, it is what is being done (not to the extent of what we are discussing here). If you are breeding, you keep what you think are the best animals back to raise up for future breeding projects. Now regardless of why you kept that animal back, you have a specific reason. It was larger, had a better pattern, more vibrant color, reduced pattern, etc... you had a reason to keep that particular animal. Now I am not saying I agree with selectively breeding a trait into a frog over many generations, but honestly the majority of folks don't know how these were created and just make assumptions. Now if I was offering the animals for sale, I would expect a little backlash I suppose and then I could see the debate coming up, but I did not expect it when I am just sharing photos. If it makes anyone feel better though these will be paired up with my normal azureus I got from Gooding Exotics (who posted here as well) which are beautiful. Just with more spots lol


The fact that they are line breed is a big factor, like Doug said. If it weren't for that I would own some already. The fact that we have taken something out of the wild and changed it for our enjoyment or preference, just doesn't make sense to me. I like to think of my frogs as a slice of the wild. Not some frog that has been bred to look different so I'll like it more. I really prefer and enjoy the beauty of natural nature; not the beauty of unnatural nature. That is just my opinion though. Everybody has there own and they are allowed to. I respect that. Apologize if my comment also came across as an outcry or protest. 

P.S.- Goodding of Goodding Exotics is spelled with two "d"s  (and two "o"s, but that is easier to remember). It is not a big deal. Just so you know


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Pumilio- Sorry, wasn't trying to attack you or anything or lash out. I just don't feel it even needed mentioned about them being line bred, because that is another thread entirely is all. These are just pictures I was sharing as I stated before. I am not offering them for sale, I do not plan on inbreeding them when I have others from bloodlines to pair up with them. And I do know that it cannot be posted in the for sale thread, I should have been more clear. I guess I should have asked why a thread isn't started about them every time they are offered for sale or wait listed (which is pretty often). But you did bring up a bit of questioning about their origin, which they do not keep secret. I don't know why they would take it off the site, but I do know if asked, they explain exactly where they came from. Sorry, I was not offended so to speak, just did not feel it needed mentioned in a simple picture share is all. 

zookeeperdoug- I actually did not know a lot of folks protest the Nabors line fine spot azureus. Sorry, I have been out of the hobby for about 5 years until fairly recently and a lot has changed with all the new forms available and whatnot. When I left though, he could not keep them in stock and I have not really been able to find much against the Nabors version like I have seen with the Herpetologic (even then I have not seen as much as I would expect). Same thing happen with his high yellow cobalts? As far as smuggled frogs, that's a whole can of worms in its own there. But I agree with you there 100% There are probably a lot more of those than most realize. 

Elliot- LOL, sorry for the misspell. Didn't mean to snub ya! The three NAIB azureus I got from you will be the counterparts to these and as I said before, I have no plans to continue to "line breed" these so to speak. 

Let's just enjoy the frogs!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

I'm not sure how much sky blue has actually changed things. Normal lines throw sky blue animals as well. I have a group of normal azureus bought from someone here and one of them looks identical to yours.

On the other end of the spectrum I have one that looks like a New River it has so much black.


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## Pumilo (Sep 4, 2010)

No sweat. I wasn't very clear about the link I was looking for. I didn't mean a link from Sean Stewart's site. I meant a Dendroboard thread that seems to be missing. Sean has always been clear that they are a line bred frog. It is in the very first line of his introduction to the frog.
I really wasn't trying to turn this into a line breeding thread. One person asked how long the line has been around, and other people were just interested in them.
As we are our frogs stewards, we are responsible for our frogs. I feel it is important that we do not forget which lines are natural, and which lines are not. If we forget that, lines could start to become muddied, and natural frogs may no longer be available to us. To many of us, being able to keep natural frogs is important. I was simply passing that knowledge on. I tried to do it without passing any judgement. To me, it seems very important to keep that information connected to the frog. If DendroBoard allowed it, yes, I would post on ads, "It is important to note that these are a line bred frog".
Are they a pretty frog? Sure they are, and 10 years ago I probably would have been all over them, but my preference now is to keep the frogs in my frogroom as natural as possible.
If Sean wants to breed them, that's up to him. I'm just glad that he announces that in their description.
I have only a layman's grasp of genetics, but Ed has posted that crossing them back to a normal Azureus would be the way to go. That way you can enjoy your pretty, sky blue frog, while improving, or rounding out the genetics. It's nice to hear that that is your plan. Enjoy them!


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Yea i have seen a lot of regulars throw reduced pattern and even one of the breeders used for this line is completly normal in appearance and i am not sure these would ever breed true anyways and that was never my plan. They are truely spectacular though regardless. 

No worries pumilio. Its hard for any of us to tell tone from reading posts lol. I am sure my new arrivals next week will please all. Old frye line blue jeans pumilio! Woo hoo!


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## pafrogguy (May 8, 2013)

Figured I would post a couple of the NAIB azureus the sky blues will be paired with in a few months. These are from Elliot here (Goodding Exotics)and the pictures really do not do them justice. These are all the deep blue like the Wattley line is known for. The tops are a medium blue with the legs being very dark, almost a purplish color. The blue is washed out in the pictures unfortunately. Sent me a great moss with them too that is really doing great in their tank. In person, some of the nicest NAIB's I have seen.


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

They're looking good!


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## Dendrobait (May 29, 2005)

Does azureus background color vary much? I have one individual that is a bit whiter blue than the rest


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## Elliot (Apr 6, 2011)

Their blue "base" or background seems to be pretty variable in my experience. Not to much, but just enough to be noticeable.


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