# Is the hobby ready for conservation? (long and boring)



## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

I would like to preface the below ideas by clearly stating that this is purely hypothetical and there is no current organization set up for the below mentioned notions:

I have been thinking about ways of tapping the huge amount of resources (both space and expertise) of the private sector in a way that would quelch the fears and inhibitions of certain institutional governing bodies. I would like this post to be an accumulation of ideas with the goal of formulating the basis of a program that would interest the private sector and pacify the fears of institutions. I know there is a wealth of knowledge on this list and would really like to tap it for the benefit of all. 

I am aware of the work that has already been done by some folks in the dart frog community towards formulating a semi-formal studbook of the represented species in the hobby that have collection data. I think that for there to be any private sector involvement with true conservation species/projects, it needs to first stem from this, as of yet formed group of participating hobbyists. If this hobby is going to survive into another generation i really think it is important to start keeping track of genetic lineages stemming from animals with collection information. I would see after the formulation of this group of volunteer hobby level studbookers, a sub-group of initial elected hobbyist participants that sign a participation contract. These initial hobbyist then are given the option to nominate other interested participants. The check and balances of participants is then kept in line by the accountability that goes along with personal nomination (putting your name and reputation on the line). All people participating in the "conservation" portion of the studbooking group must sign a contract. The wording of this contract i have not thought through but could be an amalagamation of the "International killifish Conservation Project" and the "Turtle and Tortoise Conservation Group" participation contracts.
I see there being some sort of central web page where both the dart frog and conservation frog projects are represented. There will be a passworded portion of the page for participants which will house the species databases that are updated on a monthly or bi-monthly basis as far as reproduction, mortality, lone sexes, surplus animals. Also discussion forums for people to share experiences with the species, exchange photos, habitat information, natural history information etc.....There could be people in charge of a given genus/species that could "enforce" population updates and what not. I could see each species being given a certain "level of establishment in captivity" and different levels require a different set of rules for offspring designation. (Such as at early stage designation, all offspring are placed in the hands of other breeders or returned to home institution or country) At a further stage, once all bloodlines are fully represented and reintroduction/home country use is satiated the offspring belong to the participating breeder. I think the overall idea of the establishment of the group would be to ensure accountability of participants and to establish a line of communication between the private, the institution, the home country, and accross seas participants.
The contract could probably be something like a two year agreement to work with a single species. Each individual member agrees to exchange breeding stocks with other members of the program free of charge according to decisions made by the species coordinator. An accurate running database of offspring and founders is always maintained. Right to and designation of offspring is determined by the species "level of establishment". There are so many little details that would need to be flushed out. Ok enough background thoughts. For the above mentioned ideas please answer the following poll: Thanks for your time, Ben Eiben


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## geckguy (Mar 8, 2004)

Good read, full of great ideas.


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

*Conservation*

Full of something..... 
Seriously though this hobby has expanded and upgraded awareness in the US so quickly. The hobby here is certainly ready for the next challenge and I really believe there is a greater purpose in what we do with these rare little jewels. Ben has provided an opportunity to start a process which may take a couple of years to complete but a project none the less that could be as important as anything this community will ever get to do. I for one would support any efforts along these lines and as for strict controls there is no way the goals of this project will be accomplished without.


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

thanks mark


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## Nuggular (Apr 8, 2005)

I agree. This is a good step for the community. I also agree with the strict rules. Things need to be done right, the first time. 

I can offer my services as a web-designer. If you need a web page, I can do it. I can also update it with information that is given to me on a monthly or bi-monthly schedule. Or even more if needed. If you would like my help, just email me at

[email protected]


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## Mantellaprince20 (Aug 25, 2004)

Would this project be simply for members of the family Dendrobatidae, or would it be used for all amphibians. If possible, I would like to see Mantella's put on the list, due to there precarious situation, and the fact that in a few more years they will be just like darts in the hobby, all captive breed, very few imports. I will fully support this project, and am willing to help in anyway. I am sure there will be more than enough support through the DB alone, as well as plenty of donations to get things going. 

Ed Parker

(I may have access to a DNA lab this coming school year, so if differences between bloodlines need to be distinguished, I may be able to help in that way as well)


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

well there is no project as of yet. What i think needs to happen is some sort of effort fromt he community to establish a database of current available species. This would be the framework for the inclusion of other genera and potential conservation projects. I think it would be best to concentrate on just darts just to get a framework down and to iron out potential problems. Keep it small at first and prove that it can be done and then maybe expand to other taxonomic groups etc....ben


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I am currently in the process of building a system for tracking species lineage etc. It started simply for personal means but I decided to make it scaleable for the possiblility of being used on a larger scale. I have heard people talk about building something like this for years but never saw any progress so I just decided to build my own. If you have any interest contact me privately and I'll keep you informed of its progress.


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2005)

I would also be willing to help with the web page creation as i have a good deal of experince myself, however as far as online databases go that is not my for-te. i am more of a design person myself.

good luck

email: [email protected]


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## rmelancon (Apr 5, 2004)

I've been giving this some more thought and trying to decide which option to vote for and though I would be willing to participate and follow the rules it would depend on exactly what those rules entailed. Although I've really got nothing to hide (at least I think I've got nothing to hide) I wouldn't want USF&W knocking on my door doing random inspections. Another sticking point for a lot of the larger breeders would probably be the fact that we sell frogs for $$ so there may be a conflict of interest. As you know, some of the largest breeders in the US make their living entirely off of breeding frogs. However, I think the larger breeders would be the ones where the animals would be "safest". Not saying smaller breeders or "newbies" wouldn't do well with animals its just that a lot of people come in and out of the hobby and I would see some problems with trying to keep track of and place "displaced" animals. The registry I am building may help alleviate some of that problem though. I do hope more hobbyists read this post and submit their opinions and votes. This is a very important "global" issue and I think everyone should take notice.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Hello Ben,

Although I like the idea of keeping documentation on genetic lines, I feel something is missing. I am not sure if I follow you completely as the project goals seem unclear to me (maybe the headache is hindering me). I can understand that this could help in keeping enough genetic lines so that eventually importation would not be needed (although I don't think it is at this point- of WC animals that is). I am fully behind you with this project and would like to participate, but I would like to see much broader goals. As you know, the best way to preserve any species would be to protect their habitat in their country of origin. I would like to see overstock animals sold and the money generated to go toward buying land or for setting up programs for biodiversity awareness- something to the tune of an elementary school tour across the country to generate funding and awareness. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help! 

-Justin


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## Ben E (Oct 1, 2004)

my intention was trying to come up with some sort of a solution for the arguments against private involvement in captive amphibian conservation projects. I agree that preserving habitat is great, however the majority of the amphibian decline studies in central america were conducted in protected areas. 
Chytrid doesnt care about park bounderies. ben


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

Ben E said:


> my intention was trying to come up with some sort of a solution for the arguments against private involvement in captive amphibian conservation projects. I agree that preserving habitat is great, however the majority of the amphibian decline studies in central america were conducted in protected areas.
> Chytrid doesnt care about park bounderies. ben


Ben-

Yeah- I get it now. My head was just pounding and words were barely tangible. I am sort of North America centered in my thinking here. Unfortunately, chytrid is just about everywhere now... including most continents and private and institutional collections. What are the ideas behind captive breeding programs if the frogs being released are just gonna pick up chytrid again? I mean, how could someone clean an area of chytrid? Does anyone have any recent articles published on what we know about chytrid in terms of how did it get where it did, why has it become so lethal, etc...? 

-J


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

This is the best summary I have found:



Young said:


> The mystery was resolved in 1998 when scientists used
> an electron microscope to examine skin sections of dead
> Central American and Australian frogs. They found a
> previously unknown fungus, now named Batrachochytrium
> ...


EDIT: I forgot to mention that I have run into protocols for destroying soil and other things that have been exposed to Bd although I can't find any right now. As far as I know there isn't much screening for Bd since the test is expensive and specialized. From what I understand their is 1 company (British perhaps?) that has a patent on some sort of test. I could be wrong though since it has been a while since I researched this.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

There is a pcr test out know that just requires some water from the sample to be run however there are reports starting to come out of Ecuador and Colombia that there may be two unidentified fungal species in addition to the chytrid that are killing amphibians. So there are potentially three pathogens that may be combining to cause havoc. 


Ed


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## EDs Fly Meat (Apr 29, 2004)

Justin's excellent DVD on Operation Atelopus document this. It is a scary and sad state of affairs. While it is true that Chytrids are destroying entire populations (Luis is writing species descriptions on already extinct frogs!) the major problem is mutli-focal. As Ed pointed out, there are many fungal sources that act similarly in killing frogs, Atelopus in particular. Second, taking and treating wild caught animals into labs is great, but the fungus is still out there. Also, a laboratory Noah's Ark is a risky proposition. There will have to be multiple sites to ensure survivability. We also have little data on Chytrids. Fungal booms (for lack of a better word) have been noticed in populations for the last three years. So why, as Justin asked is year three the worst one? There is so much we don't know. And seeing as I do not have the answers, I gave to Justin and Luis and Operation Atelopus. This was not meant as a plug, but I encourage you, no I dare you, to see the film and try and not be frightened by what George and Justin have filmed. The current extinction of a population in front of your very eyes is a sobering thing indeed.


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## andersonii85 (Feb 8, 2004)

I just wanted ti apologize to Ben here for taking over his thread. The short answer to Ben's question is "Yes", the private sector has been ready for conservation. I think there have been more advances in amphibian husbandry in the private sector than there ever has for institutions. All it will take is many dedicated individuals and (not to sound arrogant) DBoard is a testament to that! I don't understand why some institutions are so strict on their dealings with the private sector. I personally have experienced their prejudice (not mentioning any names publicly) and see no reason for it. We could use AZA standards for a backbone.

I almost don't want to see Justin's video as I think I would feel terribly disturbed. Extinction is forever (or just an obstacle for you humanists...lol).

-J


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Why are people gravedigging old threads with polls from 3+ years ago, just to vote in them? How do you people even find these ancient threads?


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

I just voted.... to get on your nerve

Amazing this was from '05. Some folks still active, many NOT. 

and there you have it --> TWI


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

So did I  stick that in your pipe and smoke it


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## Corpus Callosum (Apr 7, 2007)

I think it's interesting to see the topics that have come up in years past, and how far (or not) we have come along since then with certain ideas.


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## sports_doc (Nov 15, 2004)

Catfur = Moderator
Sports_doc = Moderator
MJ = Moderator

so no disrespect intended... [for all those that flagged the posts as 'improper' ]


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## ahinkle (Oct 15, 2007)

Heck I voted on the question because I lacked the ability to see the date this was originally posted. My Bad. I was wondering about that because I thought that it was describing TWI/ASN and was confused but now understand.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

ahinkle said:


> Heck I voted on the question because I lacked the ability to see the date this was originally posted. My Bad. I was wondering about that because I thought that it was describing TWI/ASN and was confused but now understand.


How did you find the thread? Did it pop up on some search (what were you searching for)?


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## Ontariofrogger1973 (Oct 18, 2008)

i think this is an awsome idea... we have the responsibility to take care of this animals to try to keep them alive


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## ahinkle (Oct 15, 2007)

Catfur said:


> How did you find the thread? Did it pop up on some search (what were you searching for)?


It was on the front page of the site because of its recent activity and I just looked at the question and voted. I don't know who brought it back to life?


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

I think it is absolutely wonderful to be able to pull up, and add to, old threads. No matter how old. 

Rich


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

Rich Frye said:


> I think it is absolutely wonderful to be able to pull up, and add to, old threads. No matter how old.
> 
> Rich


Why? It's confusing to try and pick up a conversation that old and start it over. The original context is completely lost on the overwhelming majority of viewers. And in the really old threads, a lot of the original posters are no longer with us.

It's much more clear to start a new thread on the same topic and link to the old thread (with a discussion of how things have changed since then). Old conversations are important, but it's also important to maintain their context (as _old_ conversations). I'm not advocating an end to discussion on an old topic, just a proper use of the forum tools to make those discussions understandable by everyone.


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## Catfur (Oct 5, 2004)

RichardTexasherp said:


> i think this is an awsome idea... we have the responsibility to take care of this animals to try to keep them alive


I recommend you look into Tree Walkers International (TWI). The forum maintains a banner link to them in the sponsors section, and their banner occasionally pops up in ad banner rotation. TWI grew out of conversations just like this one, but this thread seriously predates TWI.


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## Rich Frye (Nov 25, 2007)

Catfur said:


> Why? It's confusing to try and pick up a conversation that old and start it over. The original context is completely lost on the overwhelming majority of viewers. And in the really old threads, a lot of the original posters are no longer with us.
> 
> It's much more clear to start a new thread on the same topic and link to the old thread (with a discussion of how things have changed since then). Old conversations are important, but it's also important to maintain their context (as _old_ conversations). I'm not advocating an end to discussion on an old topic, just a proper use of the forum tools to make those discussions understandable by everyone.


Maybe I have too much faith in people's ability to read and comprehend. But I love the ability to go back to old threads none the less. Old does not equal bad or useless. You can still link if you like...


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

Note of caution is that whomever is in charge of gathering and managing the data should not also be the one in charge of determining when and by how much to open the amphibians to the retail market--this could lead to data manipulation.


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## bbrock (May 20, 2004)

oldlady25715 said:


> Note of caution is that whomever is in charge of gathering and managing the data should not also be the one in charge of determining when and by how much to open the amphibians to the retail market--this could lead to data manipulation.


If this is in reference to TWI and the Amphibian Steward Network, ASN doesn't have anything to do with the retail market. The data are simply used to help people with amphibians track pedigrees and manage breeding programs to keep stable and genetically intact populations of amphibians in captivity.


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## oldlady25715 (Nov 17, 2007)

It was just in reference to something I learned through my day job with market based conservation land programs. Sometimes the organization that sells stuff like land covenants and transferable development rights to preserve open space also tries to control all the data--it can be a conflict of interest. 

I don't know much about the ASN folks but they seem like hardworking, passionate indviduals that are ethical and have conservation as the number one priority. I was mostly responding to the framework in the first post in this thread that said once the wild populations are satiated the breeders can sell future offspring.


I just wanted to mention that when a lot of money becomes involved in any conservation program that also gathers and analyzes data, it is my opinion that there can be increased potential for intentional or unintentional bias in the data if transactions are handled by the same entity. A balanced program should have separate organizations managing the money and the data.


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## waynowon (Jun 2, 2007)

where can i get justin's dvd


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## MJ (Jun 16, 2005)

Contact Justin through here but I think you can buy it direct from the site 

Operation Atelopus - Home


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