# are mysteriosis illegal here



## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

are mysteriosis illegal here? what if i had some.....would anyone buy and would i be in some great trouble. just curious. it's an idiot post.....so be nice lol  :lol:


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

crap.... ok ever one lets be adults here.... just read this and it should answer your question
general-discussion/topic31781.html?hilit=mysteriosis#p236143

Brian


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i had a guy offer them to me...that's why i asked and wondered if it was ok to buy. they were from europe ....smuggled i am sure....he said he actually put them in his pocket in deli cups. He moved to U.S. and didn't want to leave them behind i guess. he has them in U.S. here. i wish thy were legal or had advice...i would think most would frown and say to stay away from buying them?? i would then.....any other thoughts?? it's kind of a bummer they are illegal as they are nice kristy :?:


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

I think that anyone contemplating any type of activity, dart frog related or not, needs to understand the implications of their action. In every sense of the word.

Bill


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## Lucille (May 9, 2008)

Yeah, there is too much in the balance, in my opinion, to be buying illegal stuff of any nature. Not only are some of the fines extremely heavy, but many other froggers who manage to stay within the law will look down on those who break it. Especially with the increase in statutes prohibiting ownership of all kinds of reptiles or amphibians, let alone smuggled ones, those who break the law will make it harder for the rest of us because of the resulting publicity.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

well then my obvious conclusion is not to buy....as i like to keep my collection in order if you know what i mean....as all are legal that i have lol....i was just curious....wish they were legal as they are a spectacular dart.....but i wouldn't buy if that is the advice..so i'm holding back on them then. i was just curious if they were still illegal. nice to know they are, and not recommended to buy. atleast i didnt do the community an injustice of doing so. i'm sure the owner has though.  :shock: :|


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## Lucille (May 9, 2008)

Each of us has to make our own decisions and conclusions about legal implications; despite seeing others 'get away with it'.
Frankly, if I knew for sure someone was smuggling or selling illegal animals, I would turn them in.


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

personal thought only , im sure dealing in smuggled frogs would be a bad choice for anyone trying to get started breeding and selling frogs, its a tight hobby and word travels far and fast.if your just in it for a buck and will be gone in 6 months jump at the chance. character goes a long way in life , we each chose our own.
craig


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

nah...i wouldn't turn anyone in....as its not like the dea or police are going to be busting down a house for a couple darts lol.....i'm not like that. i just stick with what is legal....i was only curious if they were legal yet. hope someday they are...cuz they are very nice. i was just curious to their legality...not to whether i was actually going to buy cuz i wouldn't if they are illegal. i'm thinking and hoping they will be someday though. that would be a day i would purchase them.


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## siples (Aug 14, 2004)

Just out of curiosity did this human give you a price?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

yes.....this human did lol.....breeding pair....lots of money


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## NCSUdart (Oct 1, 2004)

if they are ever legally exported from Peru, I'd expect them to become fairly common within a few years as they breed quite readily over in europe


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

yeah...i'm looking forward to them becoming legal but i don't think the documents will be in for legal importation for about six years but they are working on it.....when they do i can't wait to buy some....as i wouldn't buy illegally....but would buy if they were able to import htem here legally. some have frowned on my topic, but i was only curious if they were legal yet...just out of curiosity since someone offered me a breeding pair and i said i needed to make sure they were legal.....now i know they aren't but i suspect there is a downlow and several people have some kept hidden lol

everyone it was just a curious post to get an answer....not a post saying i was going to buy them. i wanted to know their legalities first. and if not legal yet...i wouldn't buy. just to make that clear. :lol: :|


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## Matt (May 16, 2008)

Ok, 

I don't want to argue about something that has been debated already in detail, but I'm trying to get some clarification on CITES. Its been stated that unless a country provides CITES paperwork, then the exports are not legal.

So, here is the CITES database: http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html

Now, here is my question...
When there is a search for Leucomelas or auratus for instance, there are export quotas listed, for the amount of animals that were allowed out in a given year.

Now doing that same search for Dendrobates mysteriosus, shows that there are none, which makes sense, if its not legal to export from Peru. 
However, if you look up any of the phyllobates, like terribilis, bicolor, etc, those show up and look completely identical to the mysteriosus entry. 

Does this mean that terribilis isn't legal? Why isn't its status as hotly debated if it doesn't have any legitimate paperwork either? Now I admit I haven't read up on the laws, the legalese hurts my brain. I'm just looking for a simple explanation, not to start a big debate. I understand the huge concerns with exporting the phyllobates. But if CITES is the legal database, then ... ? Were these frogs pre-CITES (1975), and Mysteriosus is not?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

i believe an answer to your question would be this....terribillis were legally exported into U.S. a while back...mysteriosis has never gotten the paperwork and cites to do it yet.....but will probably happen soon in future because europe has been breeding them and they are common there. they just are not legal here. it is confusing huh? i could be wrong on this answer .....thats why i posted....but terribillis are legal here in u.s.....i just ordered a breeding group. they are already here and selling. I'm not clear on the legalities of everything either...but i do know mysteriosis are smuggled into the u.s. and are not legal here as of yet. :|


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Matt said:


> Ok,
> 
> Does this mean that terribilis isn't legal? Why isn't its status as hotly debated if it doesn't have any legitimate paperwork either? Now I admit I haven't read up on the laws, the legalese hurts my brain. I'm just looking for a simple explanation, not to start a big debate. I understand the huge concerns with exporting the phyllobates. But if CITES is the legal database, then ... ? Were these frogs pre-CITES (1975), and Mysteriosus is not?


The difference is terribilis has been legally exported from Columbia before. Back when Columbia was open this was many moons ago. Some of though frogs maid it to Europe and where breed and then exported to here. With mysteriosus their was never a legal export form the country of origin (Peru) this is why they are not legal. I should also be noted that Mysteriosus will not be legal here until Peru allows an export (and i really don't see that happening any time soon but would be happy to be wrong) the one's over in Europe that are breeding don't count as legal over here. 
Brian


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

good explanation brian...its what i had in my head to post but couldnt find the right words to answer his question. i heard maybe six years for the mysteriosis to be legally exported to the u.s. but i would like some then when they are indeed legal...but once they are legal....they will become pretty regularly available and wont be hard to get.


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## Matt (May 16, 2008)

But if the CITES is made to explicitly list every legally exported animal, and terribilis isn't listed, then why not? 

Is is...
a) the CITES list isn't accurate (seems likely, since i havent seen any dart listed before the mid 90's)
b) the exports were done pre-CITES in the early 70's.
c) CITES isn't the only way to legally export 

I'm not trying to dispute its legality or anything, I'm just trying to figure out where the gap is.


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

cant answer that for ya matt...i'm as clueless as you


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

Matt said:


> But if the CITES is made to explicitly list every legally exported animal, and terribilis isn't listed, then why not?
> 
> Is is...
> a) the CITES list isn't accurate (seems likely, since i havent seen any dart listed before the mid 90's)
> ...


Cites is just a organization thats monitors the trade and allows the trade. The country has the right to say what can and cant be exported. Back when Columbia was allowing thier animals to be collected and shipped out thier where cites papers generated for terribilis. They don't list Terrbilis because they fall under the family of dendrobates because of thier hi demand for trade all darts fall under they list are frogs that are expected to be exported from the country of origin. CB fall under a different thing and wont show up under the list on CITES web site. So just to make this a little clearer. You have some terribilis you want to export so you apply for the permit. Cites then checks to see if this animal has ever been exported legal through them. One that clears they process the permit to you to allow you to be able to export x number of frogs to what ever. Now thier is allot more to it then that I am just bare boning it to try to make sense. I hope I am making this clearer. also to brack down what you said even further 
A) I am not shore when darts where added to the list however animals are voted on every year as far as what to add take off.
B) Its possible but its hard to prove a linage that way especially where WC terribilis are technically not legal right now.
C) CITES is the only legal way of getting darts in this country because the United States has agreed adhere to their regulations of trade.
Hope this help you Matt
Brain


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Well since I'm feeling mischevious today, I'll repost my 'Ode to Mystis' sung to the tune of Janis Joplin's 'Mercedes Benz'

"Oh Lord, won't you send me some mystis real soon, 
The Europeans all have them, it's making me swoon. 
They might been smuggled but we just don't care, 
Our lack of them mystis is causing despair. 

"Oh Lord, won't you ship them to me overnight, 
I'll wait by the doorway as soon as it's light. 
I know it's a hassle but please heed my plea, 
And oh by the way, could shipping be free? 

Oh Lord, let me be the only person in town, 
To own these little beauties so don't let me down. 
If I get me some offspring, they won't be sold cheap, 
For this hobby's a business and profits I'll reap. 

Oh Lord, won't you send me some mystis real soon, 
Just use FedEx priority and they'll be here by noon. 
I'm counting on you to answer my prayer, 
And while you are at it, could you send me a pair?"

8) 

Bill


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## somecanadianguy (Jan 9, 2007)

that was a thing of beauty bill ya made me laugh thank you
craig


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

I will second that Bill very funny..but i think it might be time to put down the Kool-aid.
Brian


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## a hill (Aug 4, 2007)

Also didn't see the Why are mysteriosis legal in Europe question dunno if you where wondering this as well..

What I understand is they where smuggled into Europe and someone was caught with them :lol: 

The government took them away and their system is different than how it would work in the USA and they where given to I believe a Zoo or privet entity to take care of. They reproduced and boom they're in the hobby.

No CITES paperwork on them so they're not legal even though they're legal in Europe (that was already gone over though.)

The other thing is some frogs have been mislabeled in the past or not specifically labeled (from what I've read) so that also may explain other frogs not showing up. 

-Andrew


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

ll elmosisfive that was absolutley hilarious...can yu sing it to me again. :lol:


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## Brian Ferriera (Nov 1, 2006)

How about for the next fundraiser bill does a whole parody CD and we sell it to rase money for Understory?


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

lol....sounds like a great idea....is he up to it....still laughing :lol: maybe we need a demo made first


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

are u sure its just kool-aid lol  :lol:


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Actually its mental deterioration from years of reading threads posted in the Lounge :lol: 

Bill


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## kristy55303 (Apr 27, 2008)

lol. bill...i'll take a note of that ....maybe cut down on years of reading threads lol


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