# Having a terrible time with eggs/tads



## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

I thought for sure that I would get tadpoles this time...well, I did to a point. After tons of eggs I have finally gotten what I can recognize as tadpoles from a clutch of 10 eggs. One egg was bad from the start but 9 were forming into tadpoles. Many started becoming large and forming a "C" shape and it was to the point that I thought they would soon break free and I would go on to the next step of rehousing... However, I noticed one of the unhatched tadpoles looking moldy and soon figured it to be a goner. Soon, I started to notice many of the tadpoles grow moldy and no longer would they twitch/move and growth stopped. I now believe all 9 of these unhatched tadpoles to be dead and I can't figure out what happened. I had kept them in a closed petri-dish and opened the lid once daily to mist them (not on the eggs themselves but along the side of the petri-dish). I've kept the petri-dishes on top of the vivarium close to the light which is an LED and doesn't produce any significant heat. The tadpoles are R. Variabilis Southern. Water the petri-dish is not drowning the eggs but is surrounding the egg clutch on all sides. The temperature of my home is 74 degrees and that number could possibly go up to 75 at the warm parts of the day (Florida).

I'm getting very discouraged. I felt like this batch was going to make it and would be my first experience having tadpoles. Please assist me and help me figure out what could be happening. I really appreciate all help.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

Try exposing them to more ventilation, maybe use a vented lid. What kind of water are you using? Do you add any blackwater extract or Methylene blue?


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## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

the eggs are in R/O water. I don't have any blackwater extract but I do have some tea I made from boiled indian almond leaves that I planned on using once the tads hatched from the eggs.


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## 55105 (Jan 27, 2015)

I use RO water that has been steeped with a full Indian almond leaf for several days to mist my eggs. I try to keep the eggs about half way covered with IAL water. Over 15 clutches of eggs and I've never had mold.

If you haven't watched Josh's frogs videos on breeding they're pretty good. I pretty much just follow what they suggest and haven't had too many problems.

Good luck!


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## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

I will try some Indian almond leaf water on this new batch and report my findings. Thank you for the input.


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## carola1155 (Sep 10, 2007)

What is your supplementation regimen like?


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## Gibbs.JP (Feb 16, 2016)

I have a pair of imitator Varadero that produce often. I don't even bother seeking out or looking for eggs to remove. I have film canisters set up in their tank and just wait for them to deposit the hatched tads into the film cans. Then, after a few days I just take the tad from the can and put it into a cup outside with RO blackwater extract water, indian almond leaf piece and some java moss. Haven't lost one yet. 

I have raised a few other species from eggs, but just had them in the same set up you mentioned - petri-dish with RO misting. I lost one fantastica tad just days after it hatched out, but never had any mold issues. Makes me think your external conditions might play a factor.


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## tongo (Jul 29, 2007)

What vitamins do you use for the adults?


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Gibbs.JP said:


> I have raised a few other species from eggs, but just had them in the same set up you mentioned - petri-dish with RO misting. I lost one fantastica tad just days after it hatched out, but never had any mold issues. Makes me think your external conditions might play a factor.


We don't see it as much since more people started using supplements with preformed vitamin A but anytime there are issues with tadpole survival it is worth revisiting the topic. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

tongo said:


> What vitamins do you use for the adults?


Originally I had used RepCal and Herptivite. Someone from here expressed to me the need for vitamin A and so I began using a calcium supplement with vitamin A once every 3 feedings or so. I feed fruit flies every other day unless my springtail cultures began to go crazy at which time I dump those in to feed.

I've been using the Calcium with vitamin A for approximately 4 months. The RepCal and Herptivite get switched out every 6 months or sooner and are labeled to ensure I remember the time to switch.

I went home last night and did the almond leaf water and had the lid slightly off of the new eggs.

Thank you.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The preformed vitamin A is required as Herptivite only has beta carotene as the source of vitamin A which the frogs have an issue converting to a usable form. Pretty much all of the frogs that were raised on beta carotene have some levels of vitamin A deficiency. 

Using Repashy calcium plus appears to have sufficient vitamin A to maintain and prevent a deficiency if one doesn't exist before beginning the treatment (based on anecdotal reports). All you've been doing is diluting it further through the continuation of the Rep-cal/Herptivite mixture. 

If you want to continue the mixture you should add the straight powdered vitamin A at no more than once a week for several months. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

Just ordered some Rapashy Vitamin A and have used it once thus far.

A set of tads that I thought were doomed to fade at the last stages just had a couple hatch out. I've noticed that several of the tadpoles that stop developing will have undeveloped (short) tails or will simply begin molding over.

I'm hoping that these new tadpoles continue to develop and hoping that once I get this Vitamin A supplement going enough in the frogs that future clutches will be more successful.

I appreciate all of the input/suggestions.


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## cwebster (Mar 5, 2016)

When I was hatching eggs and raising tads, they were just pacific treefrogs. I used a container like a pitcher and changed the water, which was well water or bottled spring water, every day very carefully. When they hatched they had a lot of room to swim and I fed them boiled lettuce. Do your tads gave room to move around, in the Petri dish? Would consider spring water instead of r/o water.


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## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok this is where I'm at now...

Only dosed twice with the Vitamin A since I've had it as to not worry about over doing it.. so I doubt that I'll see much difference yet..

I've had one tadpole (once hatched) kick the bucket with the second one doing really well and a third one alive and moving around but looks to be developing slowly.

I've got two other batches of eggs with one bad developing pretty well and then most of them stopped besides one which looks ready to hatch. The second batch had most developing at the same speed and now I can see some are no longer developing.

I hope it's something simple like a lack of a vitamin...only time will tell.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Speg said:


> .
> 
> Only dosed twice with the Vitamin A since I've had it as to not worry about over doing it.. so I doubt that I'll see much difference yet..


I don't understand the persistence in the fear of vitamin A toxicity when vitamin D3 is just as risky and people have no issues dusting with it daily. Calcium has one of the narrowest ranges of safety but people aren't terrified about using it either... 

Follow the directions and you'll be fine. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

cwebster said:


> When I was hatching eggs and raising tads, they were just pacific treefrogs. I used a container like a pitcher and changed the water, which was well water or bottled spring water, every day very carefully. When they hatched they had a lot of room to swim and I fed them boiled lettuce. Do your tads gave room to move around, in the Petri dish? Would consider spring water instead of r/o water.


Dendrobatid tadpoles are pretty omnivorous bordering on carnivorous only and a diet of boiled lettuce would be problematic in supplying all of the needed nutrition. A good quality flake food and as an additional option the offering of black worms, daphnia or even mosquito larvae (and other animal protein sources) are more in line of their dietary needs. (In fact they are known to be predatory on other tadpoles including siblings). 

Some comments 

Ed


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## flyfanatic14 (Jun 15, 2016)

Hello, I'll add my two cents in the hope that it will help. The following is how I raised over 50 Auratus this year(my first time too) When I observed eggs in the dishes under coconut shell domes, I left them in place for 24 more hours. Then I removed the dish with eggs, made sure that all of the eggs were fertile and then I added just enough very dilute "tea" that I made by boiling Live Oak leaves in spring water to barely keep the eggs moist. I covered the dish with a lid and then put the dish in a cheap quail egg incubator set at 74 degrees F. Every few days I flood the eggs with tea and suction up any dirt or other foreign materiel with a syringe. (without a needle) then leave just a little water in there. I believe the tea and frequent changing/cleaning kept the mold away. After hatching I add just enough of the same to just cover the tads since some of them seem to be in some sort of trance where they don't or can't move. After they start swimming I put them in individual cups with a piece of aquatic plant. Usually elodea and Java moss. I hope this helps. Matt


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

flyfanatic14 said:


> When I observed eggs in the dishes under coconut shell domes, I left them in place for 24 more hours.


There isn't any need to leave the eggs in the enclosure post laying. The male releases sperm before the eggs are deposited on the dish, leaf etc. Needing to leave it in the tank is dogma. 



flyfanatic14 said:


> I added just enough very dilute "tea" that I made by boiling Live Oak leaves in spring wate


If your adults are getting a proper diet there should be no need to use tea, this is a carryover practice from when hypovitaminosis of A was more common in the hobby. 



flyfanatic14 said:


> covered the dish with a lid and then put the dish in a cheap quail egg incubator set at 74 degrees F.


Optimal developmental temperatures for auratus are closer to 78 F. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Speg (Nov 9, 2010)

Alright, so some new developments here...

Since these last issues I've posted, I have now got one tadpole to morph into a froglet and climb on its own power out of water. The froglet was placed in a small container with spagnum, some cocofiber, plant clipping, and a few magnolia leaves. I fed once with a some springtails. The froglet lasted one day and died.

Now, some back story: My supplement game has increased since my last issues and these froglet could have been the result of under supplementation as he was already growing when I was having all of my issues. I will say that this froglet was extremely tiny...Yes, they're thumbnail frogs but here's why I say he was tiny.... I also have another tadpole that is in its final stages of morphing into a froglet (front legs are out). This second morphing froglet is huge in comparison to the first one that died. I would compare the second ones size to the full grown parent frogs and am shocked to say that he may even be slightly larger! The issue I see with this second frog is a possible spindly leg syndrome that I can not confirm at this time. It's difficult for me to see under the morphing frog without disturbing/stressing the frog at this time but I believe it to be a very real possibility... However, it may be too early to tell as he still has a huge tail and isn't done morphing/growing quite yet.

The eggs that I get now are mostly all forming into the initial tadpole stages and then most die. I'm usually left with one tadpole coming out of the egg. The most recent clutch looked great up until after about 4 or 5 days and then only the center most egg survived and is now out of the egg and in a tadpole cup.

So as a reminder, I feed approximately every other day with fruit flies and dust with calcium, multi vits, and vitamin A every other feeding. I will occassionally use some springtails as a supplemental feeder. I'm getting eggs roughly every 2-3 weeks. I'm adding water in the petri dishes in order to touch all sides of the egg clutch but not fully submerge them. I'm currently trying to use spring water rather than R/O water for the eggs/tadpoles thinking that this could be an issue. I've also tried keeping the top of the petri dish off slightly to allow more air flow and still the same results occur.

Please help


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Speg;2835825
The eggs that I get now are mostly all forming into the initial tadpole stages and then most die. I'm usually left with one tadpole coming out of the egg. The most recent clutch looked great up until after about 4 or 5 days and then only the center most egg survived and is now out of the egg and in a tadpole cup. [/quote said:


> If your frogs have been breeding constantly since November then even though you've changed the supplements it may still be too soon to get good viability of the eggs or to be past the SLS issues. It can take a number of months to correct a severe deficiency when the frogs are still breeding as this slows the accumulation of the reserves of the vitamins as the primary factor for new egg formation is the fat reserves available to the frogs in conjunction with environmental factors.
> 
> some comments
> 
> Ed


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## Frogsarefun (Nov 25, 2015)

Gibbs.JP said:


> I have a pair of imitator Varadero that produce often. I don't even bother seeking out or looking for eggs to remove. I have film canisters set up in their tank and just wait for them to deposit the hatched tads into the film cans. Then, after a few days I just take the tad from the can and put it into a cup outside with RO blackwater extract water, indian almond leaf piece and some java moss. Haven't lost one yet.
> 
> I have raised a few other species from eggs, but just had them in the same set up you mentioned - petri-dish with RO misting. I lost one fantastica tad just days after it hatched out, but never had any mold issues. Makes me think your external conditions might play a factor.


This is what I do and works very well!


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## Lizardguy (May 21, 2009)

Hello everyone, I don't normally post but in this one I will. I totally agree with Ed, the deficiencies in your frogs take a very long time to correct. These deficiencies in many cases start from the age of a froglet. It is very important to have a good regimen of vitamins due to the fact if you think about it everything that they gain from vitamins is what they absorb. As we all know poison dart frogs are very prone to vitamin deficiencies, so it's important to have a good regimen of supplementation. A very good example is I have a pair of koetari New Rivers that was purchase as adults. I obtain these frogs as adults which were producing eggs. The issue is that the eggs that they have produced have all been infertile. We obtain these in May of 2017, we allow them to have a rest period so that they can build up their vitamins, even though we have done this when they were brought out of this rest time the eggs were still infertile. We have increase vitamin A which the previous owner had not done, the results have been this out of 15 clutches we have only have one frog the show. Tadpoles are forming but are not making it through the entire time until metamorphism. Similar circumstance from the same person that we acquired these frogs, we also acquired some bull's-eyes, they as well had vitamin A deficiencies period under the same regimen we are now finally getting froglets from them. My advice to you is to be patient, continue using your vitamins, and give the frogs a break from breeding. This should allow them time to build up what deficiencies that they have. In respect to other people I am not the most experience in this but I've dealt with this for many years. Thanks for for reading and enjoy your day.


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