# Rare Frogs



## The_Greg

Hey everybody, After seeing the thread on the bullseye froglet, I'm interested in what kind of frogs are in the hobby that are more rare, that have price tags of $150 and up usually.

If we could post pictures with examples and maybe a quick blurb about the frog I think this has potential to be a great sticky.

I'll start from what I've found in quick research...

Name: O. Lehmanni

Why it seems to be rare? Illegal to trade across country borders and is near impossible to breed

Common Price: $???

Notes: Habitat shrinking due to demand from people wanting to breed them? (sourced from james67)












So, what are some other beautiful frogs that can be gotten within the hobby, but are not common like some pumilio and others?


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## Philsuma

Let's set a starting point- price on "rare" frogs in the hobby at @ $250.00 minimum.

there are plenty of Pumilio and thumbnails being imported and produced in the $150.00 - $200.00 range that are not at all considered rare in the hobby.

Reasons for rareity:

1. Not exportable from country of origin.

2. Hard to keep / hard to breed and raise.

3.other characteristics such as unique coloration, call ect.


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## The_Greg

Agreed on the $250 pricerange. 

Basically why I started the thread was to centralize information regarding if someone wanted to spend a shiny penny on a more unique species, what are the options. I personally would never buy darts that are 'near impossible' to breed, regardless of their beauty. Over weeks of watching the active posts, mostly about tincs, pumilio and other thumbs, I found 1 or 2 threads at tops discussing the 'connoisseur' frogs. 

The information I'm looking for is to see if someone wanted to drop $500 on a pair of darts or more, what are their REASONABLE options.

However, its interesting to see the more impractical species as well, and I think its beneficial to get the word out there on what species perhaps shouldnt be in the hobby.

Does this make sense?


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## Julio

last time i saw lehmanis for sale in the us was about 10 years ago and they were going for $2500 a frog so you can only imagine how much they would be now.


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## The_Greg

Julio said:


> last time i saw lehmanis for sale in the us was about 10 years ago and they were going for $2500 a frog so you can only imagine how much they would be now.


WOW!

So, tell us of the OTHER frogs you've seen around that are also expensive? Please?!


Philsuma, I assume you know quite a bit about frogs from your helpfulness, care to share some of the cooler rare frogs you have heard of?


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## FutureFrogMan

NM, im blind


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## Philsuma

I can say that I've been keeping and breeding mainly geckos since the 80's but only 5 years for the dendros....

that said....I am a quick learner.

All I can add is that Histo's are pretty rare and there are some "older" frogs in central AND south Florida.

Even IF you have the $$ (rock star / Bank exec ect) almost all REPUTABLE breeders will not transfer a (LEGAL) Histo to you if you are new and inexperienced.

I have seen a couple reputations ruined by bad dealings and smuggled animals though. The hobby is so small....a rep can be ruined by word of mouth - quickly.


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## Rain_Frog

Price really means nothing.

Mantella cowanii is even rarer in captivity than O. histrionica or BJ pumilio. A. spumarius, green Mantella crocea, Mantella bernhardi, Melanophryniscus stelzheri, are also very uncommon.


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## gatobacon

Name: Oophaga Histrionicus AKA Harlequin Poison Frog
Origin: Ecuador
Price: Quick search on the Frog Classified turned up nothing on the board; previous posts had them at $400+ per frog
Why so rare?: Export band from Ecuador. Were never bred in numbers while frogs were legal to import. Not as rare in European hobby

It seems Histos are not endangered in the wild and are actually common in their natural environments. It seems the window to import them was just missed.

Hopefully WC frogs get introduced into the hobby. It would be nice to have more species from the Oophaga group available.

I have to admit, I put this post together with about 5 min of research, I'm by no means an expert on this frog, just did some diligence.


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## The_Greg

Rain_Frog said:


> Price really means nothing.
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> Mantella cowanii
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> or BJ pumilio.
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> A. spumarius,
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> green Mantella crocea,
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> Mantella bernhardi,
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> Melanophryniscus stelzheri,
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Looks like this thread isnt really going anywhere fast. Either that, or there are three types of hobbiest frogs...

Common 
Rare and sought (troublesome)
rare (because) unsought

Am I pegging the market correctly?


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## The_Greg

andrew.hess said:


> I have to admit, I put this post together with about 5 min of research, I'm by no means an expert on this frog, just did some diligence.


And I thank you for it. This could be a really cool go-to thread with a little bit of anyone's time.


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## Brian Ferriera

Rain_Frog said:


> Price really means nothing.
> 
> Mantella cowanii is even rarer in captivity than O. histrionica or BJ pumilio. A. spumarius, green Mantella crocea, Mantella bernhardi, Melanophryniscus stelzheri, are also very uncommon.


I totally agree with Doug here...Thier are tons of tricolor morphs that are rare out thier some other frogs out thier that you just don't see

Silverstoni
Captives(illegal)
Mysterosis (illegal)..please lets not start a debate on the legality of this frog again....
Moonshine Galac's
R. Biolat
0.vincentei and 0.arborea ...both these frogs are here but thier not that common..

Brian


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## stemcellular

The_Greg said:


> Looks like this thread isnt really going anywhere fast. Either that, or there are three types of hobbiest frogs...
> 
> Common
> Rare and sought (troublesome)
> rare (because) unsought
> 
> Am I pegging the market correctly?


Also, that's not a crocea, its a laevigata...just saying...


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## The_Greg

Brian Ferriera said:


> I totally agree with Doug here...Thier are tons of tricolor morphs that are rare out thier some other frogs out thier that you just don't see
> 
> Silverstoni
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> Captives(illegal)
> Mysterosis (illegal)..please lets not start a debate on the legality of this frog again....
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> Moonshine Galac's
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> R. Biolat
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> 0.vincentei and 0.arborea ...both these frogs are here but thier not that common..
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> Brian


thats all i could find pictures for.

And i'm not guaranteeing that the pictures are right, because I started this thread to learn. Im just google searching. Feel free to correct me with correct pictures


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## HunterB

stemcellular said:


> Also, that's not a crocea, its a laevigata...just saying...


I saw that and thought "that's not a crocea" but would never disagree with a more knowldeageable member like Doug


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## Rain_Frog

Ray beat me to it-- that's a laevigata. I don't know where to get a pic of green crocea, but I think a pic is in the book by Mark S.

There needs to be a difference between frogs that are "rare," and "rare and valuable," or just "valuable."

Yes, there are rare tricolor / anthonyi morphs like moraspunga, but they probably wouldn't go for more than $75. 

There are morphs of frogs that aren't rare, but "valuable" or more expensive.

A. silverstonei is another rare, valuable frog that would be very expensive, but probably not as expensive as a histrionica.

One reason why egg feeders are so expensive is because they produce very few offspring. If someone was ever successful breeding A. spumarius, I doubt they'd be going for more than $100 each because they can produce hundreds of froglets from one clutch.

So, if there is high demand, but little supply, pumilio will probably remain expensive even if some morphs are not rare.

Ultimately, the rarest frogs like O. lehmanni or M. cowanii-- the few that remain in captivity-- are usually trade only frogs because they have no set "price."


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## Rain_Frog

forgot to add:

Mantella aff. expectata "blushing" is another uncommon frog that is very hard to find now.

If you need to see a pic, visit mantella.amphibiancare.com


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## HunterB

Rain_Frog said:


> forgot to add:
> 
> Mantella aff. expectata "blushing" is another uncommon frog that is very hard to find now.
> 
> If you need to see a pic, visit mantella.amphibiancare.com


I'm getting a probable pair tomorow hehe


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## Brian Ferriera

frog

all the frog pics you are looking for are thier..
Brian


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## Rain_Frog

a probable pair of expectata, or aff. expectata "blushing?"


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## HunterB

expectata


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## jcarbone61

O. Histrionicus '' red headed '' rare but around 500-700 each


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## dabruno

what about sylvaticus, i think i saw a few of them on here for 500 each


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## The_Greg

Dendrobates uakariii

Ive seen these same exact pictures when googling "amazonicus"

So, is there something to distinguish the two? Because the frogs in that link are the ones that I've wanted since I got into the hobby, so are they uakarii or is it a double-name kinda deal?


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## ChrisK

dabruno said:


> what about sylvaticus, i think i saw a few of them on here for 500 each


Yeah here's some belly shots of mine: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...809.html?highlight=blue+sylvaticus#post391809


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## NathanB

what about all the rare frogs in the hobby that go for less than $100. how many people keep Allobates?


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## Rain_Frog

with the exception of M. cowanii, green crocea and blushing mantellas will probably be less.

Melanophryniscus stelzheri, when available, were around $7-20. But, if someone were to breed them again, they produce a lot of offspring, so they wouldn't be going for more than $75 each.


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## ggazonas

Here are a couple more rarities

Blue Truncatus
Golden auratus

not so rare but just no common, and not too expensive

A. hahneli 'Iquitos'
E. tricolor 'Highland'
E. tricolor 'Rio Canario' and many other tricolors like 'Strong','Salvias' ect.
A. castineoticus

if you consider all frogs in general beside dendrobates, then N. margaritifer

and the list could go on and on.


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## Julio

In this hobby what is considred rare is what everyone else doesn't have, but not nescesarily rare in nature.


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## gluedl

Hi all,

the rarest frogs around here include O. histrionicus and R. benedicta.

About O. histrionicus my main dealer told me it was extremely hard and dangerous to get to the place they live. I would consider that an argument for rarety too.
R. benedicta have not yet been imported legally to Europe, mainly because our vendors dont want to pay the price of the american or canadian resellers. 

Anyway I would give away my first born for any pair of these . I even considered trying to get to South America to get them myself...

Have a nice day.

gluedl


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## ggazonas

The_Greg said:


> Dendrobates uakariii
> 
> Ive seen these same exact pictures when googling "amazonicus"
> 
> So, is there something to distinguish the two? Because the frogs in that link are the ones that I've wanted since I got into the hobby, so are they uakarii or is it a double-name kinda deal?


uakarii have thick black stripes and thin marking in btw. I also believe that uakarii bands wrap around like a u shape where amazonicus or similar looking vents may have broken or y shaped bands. Plus the vents don't have such think bands and the markings are much more prominent. I'm sure there are more difference if you were to compare the two. These are just my observations from what I have seen.


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## Chris Miller

The_Greg said:


> Dendrobates uakariii
> 
> Ive seen these same exact pictures when googling "amazonicus"
> 
> So, is there something to distinguish the two? Because the frogs in that link are the ones that I've wanted since I got into the hobby, so are they uakarii or is it a double-name kinda deal?


Uakarii are a relatively recently described species in the fantasticus group. A long time ago, these came in to the US as Red Vents (from John Uhern at Reptile Specialties). After that they came in/were referred to as duellmani (a frog closely related to reticulatus).

The problem is on first inspection they are quite similar to ventrimaculatus but for me their striping and clutch size is the only thing about them that is ventrimaculatus/amazonicus like. Their behavior is fantasticus-like. They court just like fantasticus with the jerky walking, they lay their eggs on horizontal surfaces- especially under heavy cover, and their tadpoles look like fantasticus tads. They are terrestrial so I guess I should say they are summersi-like.

For more info check out: Dendrobates.org _R. uakarii _page


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## Chris Miller

ggazonas said:


> Here are a couple more rarities
> 
> Blue Truncatus


A shot of mine. They are really really old (ie no breeding).


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## ggazonas

Aurotaenia said:


> A shot of mine. They are really really old (ie no breeding).


have they ever bred?


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## Chris Miller

ggazonas said:


> have they ever bred?


Yes, they were seasonal breeders but produced clutches of 5-8 eggs every 10 days or so I got them (as adults) in 1998 and stopped pulling eggs in 2003. Never had problems with spindly or the dreaded 'shortened femur'. After that, the parents would drop tads off in the tank and some would morph out. There was literally 0 demand for these. Everyone wanted the yellow truncatus and I couldn't give these away. People said they were too much like auratus. So sad. One thing I found really interesting about truncatus was how they look like juvenile 'big 3' Phyllobates. I don't know if their ranges overlap but I know they are from Columbia.


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## ggazonas

Aurotaenia said:


> Yes, they were seasonal breeders but produced clutches of 5-8 eggs every 10 days or so I got them (as adults) in 1998 and stopped pulling eggs in 2003. Never had problems with spindly or the dreaded 'shortened femur'. After that, the parents would drop tads off in the tank and some would morph out. There was literally 0 demand for these. Everyone wanted the yellow truncatus and I couldn't give these away. People said they were too much like auratus. So sad. One thing I found really interesting about truncatus was how they look like juvenile 'big 3' Phyllobates. I don't know if their ranges overlap but I know they are from Columbia.


Thats ashame that you couldn't sell them. If I was in the hobby then I would have wanted some. I keep the yellow truncs which are great frogs, I sure wouldn't mind owning the blues too. Unfortunately last time I saw them for sale it was a group of 4 for $1200, (thast right $300 a frog) thats if my memory is correct.


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## Chris Miller

ggazonas said:


> Unfortunately last time I saw them for sale it was a group of 4 for $1200, (thast right $300 a frog) thats if my memory is correct.


I love truncatus and all Colombian frogs. People thought they were hybrids and people thought they were auratus. Anyway, I paid about $300 for my pair which was part of a larger group of 'fun' frogs. My experiences with these truncatus and other frogs from that group as well as wide banded vittatus and all three morphs of aurotaenia have changed the way I distribute offspring. Luckily now my dad is into frogs now I have the opportunity to bank froglets someplace and nothing leaves until there is a stable population in reserve. It may not be the best solution, but relying solely on others to maintain frogs was wrong on my part. It's one of two things I've regretted doing in/to the hobby (the second is personal).


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## ggazonas

Aurotaenia said:


> I love truncatus and all Colombian frogs. People thought they were hybrids and people thought they were auratus. Anyway, I paid about $300 for my pair which was part of a larger group of 'fun' frogs. My experiences with these truncatus and other frogs from that group as well as wide banded vittatus and all three morphs of aurotaenia have changed the way I distribute offspring. Luckily now my dad is into frogs now I have the opportunity to bank froglets someplace and nothing leaves until there is a stable population in reserve. It may not be the best solution, but relying solely on others to maintain frogs was wrong on my part. It's one of two things I've regretted doing in/to the hobby (the second is personal).


What are the three moprh of aurotaenia?

I have the green narrow banded, and I have a friend who keeps the gold banded, and then theres the wide banded?

Also I've never seen wide banded viattutus. I kept the typical copper/orange banded morph.

Just to keep with the post all morphs of aureotania are uncommon and I think will become rare or rarer in the near future


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## daryl34

Rabalo pumilio, they are in the US . site specific. They are definately rare, and here legal.


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## Julio

daryl34 said:


> Rabalo pumilio, they are in the US . site specific. They are definately rare, and here legal.


 from my understanding these were never legally imported or exported.


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## almazan

Julio said:


> from my understanding these were never legally imported or exported.


There was a very small group that was legally brought in for research that has made it's way into the hands of a very few respectable breeders.


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## daryl34

Julio said:


> from my understanding these were never legally imported or exported.


Pumilio, as a species, have come in by the thousands over the last few years, none of which were "morph" specific on paperwork.
These _Robalo_ (sorry about the rabalo) were legally brought in under research paperwork. The rarest dart here in the U.S. , hands down.


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## sbreland

daryl34 said:


> Pumilio, as a species, have come in by the thousands over the last few years, none of which were "morph" specific on paperwork.
> These _Robalo_ (sorry about the rabalo) were legally brought in under research paperwork. The rarest dart here in the U.S. , hands down.


Ummm... yeah, not so much. I personally know the person you are speaking of that has them now and he has had SOME success breeding. Aside from that, as mentioned there were thousands of pumilio that have come in and I am almost sure that some would be Robalo... they are just not site specific. Robalo are not the rarest and DEFINITELY not hands down.

The rarest IMO..
1. lehmanni
2. histrionicus (certain morphs like the blue or koi) or granuliferus (I challenge anyone to find a blue/green granuliferus in the hobby)
3. Silverstonei
4. more common morphs of histrionicus and sylvaticus
5. blue jeans

I really don't count frogs that have never been brought in legally like arboreus, captivus, benedicta, vicentei, or any number of others that are seen but have never come in. My list is based solely on morphs that have come in before but are difficult or impossible to find now.


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## Brian Ferriera

What about Ameerega cainarachi where any of these every brought in???
Brian


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## ggazonas

Brian Ferriera said:


> What about Ameerega cainarachi where any of these every brought in???
> Brian


I beleive Sean Stewart had them at one point because he shows them on his site.

I would say Silverstoni are quite rare in that fact that they are extremely difficult to bred and require much different husbandry from other darts.

Also even though they are not rare, I haven't seen or heard about yuri imis in a while


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## Chris Miller

ggazonas said:


> What are the three moprh of aurotaenia?
> 
> I have the green narrow banded, and I have a friend who keeps the gold banded, and then theres the wide banded?
> 
> Also I've never seen wide banded viattutus. I kept the typical copper/orange banded morph.
> 
> Just to keep with the post all morphs of aureotania are uncommon and I think will become rare or rarer in the near future


*Narrow banded:*
Cephalic amplexus









Group Shot









Female. Females appeared to have much more spotting down their backs than males.









*Wide Banded*
These frogs were metallic as opposed to yellow and looked like a giant 3 month old P. bicolor. Males had more color down the center of the back than females as opposed to the narrow banded.

Male

















Female









*Green Banded*
Just for good measure here's a green. I also saw a lone red one on a trip to south florida. Looked just like a green banded.

Female









Male









I have no pictures of the wide banded vittatus that do them justice. Imagine strips that are orange but a little smaller than the female green with yellow speckling down the back and nearly solid blue/turquoise legs.

In my not so humble opinion, P. aurotaenia should be the beginner frog of choice in the hobby. They are exceptionally bold, brightly colored, breed readily when kept cool enough and have a lovely call. On top of all that, adults relish larger prey items. I fed my adults small greater wax worms and 1/4 inch crickets supplemented with house flies, fruit flies and field sweepings. You can't beat a dart frog that eats food available at your local chain pet store. As you can tell I *love* P. aurotaenia, and unfortunately I no longer have any. I wish I had the space for these guys and will really kick myself if they are gone when I finally do have room again.


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## james67

gluedl said:


> Hi all,
> 
> the rarest frogs around here include O. histrionicus and R. benedicta.
> 
> About O. histrionicus my main dealer told me it was extremely hard and dangerous to get to the place they live. I would consider that an argument for rarety too.
> R. benedicta have not yet been imported legally to Europe, mainly because our vendors dont want to pay the price of the american or canadian resellers.
> 
> Anyway I would give away my first born for any pair of these . I even considered trying to get to South America to get them myself...
> 
> Have a nice day.
> 
> gluedl


no offense but what is it about folks in EU? "extremely hard and dangerous to get to the place where they live"? that's because its ILLEGAL! and smuggling is of course hard and dangerous. and please for the love of god dont go to Columbia and steal their animals, this is one reason why even though a sustainable harvest has been suggested, the govt is so unwilling. just because your country will issue cites papers doesn't mean that what these people are doing is right. they go down there pay the locals next to nothing ($1US would not be uncommon) and bring them back to sell them to people like you or others for $600. they dont care at all about the animals just a quick buck. how are these people any better than those using the native Colombian people as cheap labor to make cocaine? 

please when looking for animals like these buy long term captives and make very very sure that you are not supporting this type of illegal activity. 

and dont take offense but as the danger aspect goes, i have to tell you i wouldn't loose any sleep over a smuggler getting shot by locals.

james


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## Suzanne

Good news for Europeans desperate for LEGAL R. benedicta. The official vendor of Understory Enterprise frogs in the EU, Peruvian Frog import, is planning on having these imported in 2010. So, no need for stupid smuggling actions, just sit tight and contact these guys.


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## kingnicky101

Uh, actually I know quite a few places where us froggers in the U.S. can get legal r. benedicta.


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## Philsuma

kingnicky101 said:


> Uh, actually I know quite a few places where us froggers in the U.S. can get legal r. benedicta.


Where?....


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## sbreland

kingnicky101 said:


> Uh, actually I know quite a few places where us froggers in the U.S. can get legal r. benedicta.


Uhhh... no, not unless you have been told wrong or have a time machine that can take you several months to a year into the future...


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## frogparty

Indeed! veraderos look similar, but aernt the same


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## james67

Suzanne said:


> Good news for Europeans desperate for LEGAL R. benedicta. The official vendor of Understory Enterprise frogs in the EU, Peruvian Frog import, is planning on having these imported in 2010. So, no need for stupid smuggling actions, just sit tight and contact these guys.





kingnicky101 said:


> Uh, actually I know quite a few places where us froggers in the U.S. can get legal r. benedicta.


my comments were in response to "About O. histrionicus my main dealer told me it was extremely hard and dangerous to get to the place they live."

benedicta are available and cost around $450 ea if im not mistaken. 

please dont misconstrue what i was saying.
james


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## kingnicky101

Aaron's frog farm should get them in in a few weeks if I'm correct and there's a guy at the hamburg show who gets some cb European imports on occasion which he sells for $475 each I was told but he doesn't bring them to the show when he gets them in. Also, Understory Enterprises is working with them as well, that is how aaron's frog farm will get some in. So don't add to my reputation negatively because you think I'm wrong, pretty rude.


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## kingnicky101

james67 said:


> my comments were in response to "About O. histrionicus my main dealer told me it was extremely hard and dangerous to get to the place they live."
> 
> benedicta are available and cost around $450 ea if im not mistaken.
> 
> please dont misconstrue what i was saying.
> james


My thoughts exactly!


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## ggazonas

kingnicky101 said:


> Aaron's frog farm should get them in in a few weeks if I'm correct and there's a guy at the hamburg show who gets some cb European imports on occasion which he sells for $475 each I was told but he doesn't bring them to the show when he gets them in. Also, Understory Enterprises is working with them as well, that is how aaron's frog farm will get some in. So don't add to my reputation negatively because you think I'm wrong, pretty rude.


The ones aaron has are from understory and where given to him from Mark pepper (UE) As for the other guy, I have never heard of anyone else having benedictas. So if you consider aaron and UE one credible source, then thats basically the only poeple you could get them from.

Either way there is a very long waiting list and these frogs don't breed a whole lot, hence the high price.


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## kingnicky101

That stinks! I was hoping if they become more readily available they'll be cheaper. Btw the guy who gets them in is the tall Jamaican guy who has tons of bicolors and reticulated auratus all the time. Ask him next time you go to Hamburg if you want any benedictas.


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## Ed

Rain_Frog said:


> with the exception of M. cowanii, green crocea and blushing mantellas will probably be less.
> 
> Melanophryniscus stelzheri, when available, were around $7-20. But, if someone were to breed them again, they produce a lot of offspring, so they wouldn't be going for more than $75 each.


Just a comment here.. I don't think that at least the first offering price is going to be set based on how many tadpoles are hatched or even metamorphed. Its going to be set based on the demand for the froglets/toadlets. Even large clutches can initially be very expensive if there is a lot of demand for the offspring. 
I would not be surprised if someone bred A. s. hoogmoedi and were offering the metamorphs for more than $150 initially as they would be the only source for them. 

(Speaking of which, if anyone has any females A. s. hoogmoedi, please pm me). 

Ed


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## JoshH

Here's one you might not have seen to many times, lol. I had a pair of these back around 2000 and they did ok for a few months, but never bred. They didn't last as long for me as the A. spumarius though, and I still have never met anyone that can identify them or has even seen them! I probably should have stuck them in the freezer :-(

If you have any idea what species of Atelopus this is please let me know!


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## Ed

When I get a chance I'll have to take a look but if I remember correctly they were imported as A. flavescens even though they were probably a different species. 

Ed


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## sbreland

kingnicky101 said:


> Aaron's frog farm should get them in in a few weeks if I'm correct and there's a guy at the hamburg show who gets some cb European imports on occasion which he sells for $475 each I was told but he doesn't bring them to the show when he gets them in. Also, Understory Enterprises is working with them as well, that is how aaron's frog farm will get some in. So don't add to my reputation negatively because you think I'm wrong, pretty rude.


Not sure who negative rep'd you, but it wasn't me. Aaron has them, and as stated his come from Mark and UE so IMO that still is the only source. If there is someone else out there selling them then they are most assuredly smuggled, especially if they came in from Europe. At any rate, they will be available soon, but not just yet, hence my time machine comment.


----------



## 013

The rarest frogs are not mentioned in this thread. There are loads of dull-brown poison frogs with small populations that will never reach hobbyists, because there simply isn't a market for them.

If you look hard enough you will be able to find just about any frog in this thread. But people should ask themselves if it's the wise and responsible thing to do. 

Frogs like Lehmanni and Histrionica have been imported in large numbers in the past. Only a very small number of off-spring now remains. These species are very, very hard to breed. Temperature and humidity must be regulated almost to the decimal to even have a chance to breeding them. So there is a reason they are rare in the hobby. 

I don't buy the stories of the frogs being abundant. These are very specific and small localities that are very vunerable. So anyone considering buying them, is buying almost impssible to breed wc frogs and contributing to the decline of the localities. Just say no.


----------



## rmelancon

013 said:


> ...
> Frogs like Lehmanni and Histrionica have been imported in large numbers in the past. Only a very small number of off-spring now remains. These species are very, very hard to breed. Temperature and humidity must be regulated almost to the decimal to even have a chance to breeding them. So there is a reason they are rare in the hobby.
> ...


While I agree with your overall sentiment, temperature and humidity do not need to be regulated "almost to the decimal to even have a chance to breeding them". This is simply not true. I breed these animals with the same variable temperatures and humidity as my other darts. Yes they are difficult to maintain in captivity and offspring can be tricky to raise properly but it has little to do with precise temperatures and humidity levels, at least in my experience.


----------



## thedude

james67 said:


> and dont take offense but as the danger aspect goes, i have to tell you i wouldn't loose any sleep over a smuggler getting shot by locals.
> 
> james


id do it myself if i ever saw one down there. 



sbreland, i know of 2 people who have legal arboreus. (not saying who, so dont ask please).

i was wondering, how come castis are illegal because brazil never allowed any out legally, yet we have legal galacts and quinqs??


----------



## sbreland

thedude said:


> id do it myself if i ever saw one down there.
> 
> 
> 
> sbreland, i know of 2 people who have legal arboreus. (not saying who, so dont ask please).
> 
> i was wondering, how come castis are illegal because brazil never allowed any out legally, yet we have legal galacts and quinqs??


Well, in order for that to be true you'd have to define "legal". I know plenty of people with "legal" frogs that aren't REALLY legal... just becuase they have paper doesn't change the story behind them. You can get paper for just about anything in Europe but if the frog was smuggled into Europe and then given paperwork, it might be considered "legal" in some minds, but others will still never see it that way. Be careful with the term legal... it's hardly descriptive in these type of conversations. I am not 100% positive, but I don't think arboreus have ever been truly legally exported from their country of origin, but someone can correct me on that if I am mistaken on that. Besides, if the ones you know of came from European stock then they still aren't sure that they are even true arboreus anyways... there has been a long running debate about those frogs and their true classification as those that have seen true arboreus in the wild don't think the ones in Europe are the same thing. And as for me asking... don't worry, I don't need to and I don't like em anyways...

The Castis are considered illegal becuase they were loaned on a project to a zoo (think it was the Oklahoma city zoo... might be wrong zoo but story is right) from the government of Brazil who made the zoo agree to never release the offspring. Well, of course, that agreement wasn't upheld and some offspring slipped out to the American frog hobbiests and Brazil immediately got pissed and deemed any Castis as illegal... that's why. There is a story behind the quinqs and galacs but honestly I have forgotten the nuances.... it's been a few years since I heard the story.


----------



## fleshfrombone

I've met some really cool people in this hobby and complete megalomaniacs as well. All of you realize at the end of the day that these are frogs right? Nothing to get arrogant or condescending about. That kind of childish behavior does nothing to advance the hobby. I've seen so many e-tantrums on this board to put a preschool to shame. If you're done bickering maybe we can have an adult conversation on here. 

Now then, dart frogs are like anything else you could consider a commodity. If the demand is high and supply is low it's going to be labeled "rare" (with the exception of SOME obligate egg feeders) and fetch a hefty price. Just like diamonds people manipulate the market. When I first got into darts both lehmanni and histos were available as WC imports, and while expensive hundreds were coming in at a time. Very few bred them and when a majority of the stock died off and importation banned their prices skyrocketed. I've also noticed species gain popularity and lose popularity. Tricolors were as cheap or cheaper than auratus at one time now everyone wants them again. As for rarity yeah some are rare and it will take time for the prices to drop but they will. Are azureus rare? No but froglets used to fetch $60, now they're half that. Why? Because they were popular at that time. luec froglets used to sell for $50, try and sell them for that now. Hell at one time you could get blue jeans for $60 and now they're "rare." When I was in Europe I saw darts that don't even exist in the US hobby sell for less than you'd pay for a fairly common pumilio here. Do I need to explain the point or will the rant suffice?


----------



## Roadrunner

Do you consider dogs and cats commodities?
Azureus are $30ea here because people overproduce them and don`t stop them from breeding or go out looking for sales. I`ve been selling azureus for $50ea for about 10 years. And they are still $50ea. and I am only pulling a clutch a month and letting them raise their own instead of breeding 3 pairs like I used to. An azureus shouldn`t sell for the price of 3 ff cultures.



fleshfrombone said:


> I've met some really cool people in this hobby and complete megalomaniacs as well. All of you realize at the end of the day that these are frogs right? Nothing to get arrogant or condescending about. That kind of childish behavior does nothing to advance the hobby. I've seen so many e-tantrums on this board to put a preschool to shame. If you're done bickering maybe we can have an adult conversation on here.
> 
> Now then, dart frogs are like anything else you could consider a commodity. If the demand is high and supply is low it's going to be labeled "rare" (with the exception of SOME obligate egg feeders) and fetch a hefty price. Just like diamonds people manipulate the market. When I first got into darts both lehmanni and histos were available as WC imports, and while expensive hundreds were coming in at a time. Very few bred them and when a majority of the stock died off and importation banned their prices skyrocketed. I've also noticed species gain popularity and lose popularity. Tricolors were as cheap or cheaper than auratus at one time now everyone wants them again. As for rarity yeah some are rare and it will take time for the prices to drop but they will. Are azureus rare? No but froglets used to fetch $60, now they're half that. Why? Because they were popular at that time. luec froglets used to sell for $50, try and sell them for that now. Hell at one time you could get blue jeans for $60 and now they're "rare." When I was in Europe I saw darts that don't even exist in the US hobby sell for less than you'd pay for a fairly common pumilio here. Do I need to explain the point or will the rant suffice?


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> might be wrong zoo but story is right) from the government of Brazil who made the zoo agree to never release the offspring. Well, of course, that agreement wasn't upheld and some offspring slipped out to the American frog hobbiests and Brazil immediately got pissed and deemed any Castis as illegal... that's why. There is a story behind the quinqs and galacs but honestly I have forgotten the nuances.... it's been a few years since I heard the story.


All of the castinoticus are illegal because the Scientific import permit and accompanying CITES scientific permit included all potential progeny from being used for any commercial purposes as well as remaining the property of Brazil. This means the frogs transacted into the hobby are a violation of our agreements under CITES and they may be considered to be stolen from Brazil. So while they were legally imported, they have been illegally transacted across state borders... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> Well, in order for that to be true you'd have to define "legal". I know plenty of people with "legal" frogs that aren't REALLY legal... just becuase they have paper doesn't change the story behind them. You can get paper for just about anything in Europe but if the frog was smuggled into Europe and then given paperwork, it might be considered "legal" in some minds, but others will still never see it that way. Be careful with the term legal... it's hardly descriptive in these type of conversations. I am not 100% positive, but I don't think arboreus have ever been truly legally exported from their country of origin, but someone can correct me on that if I am mistaken on that. Besides, if the ones you know of came from European stock then they still aren't sure that they are even true arboreus anyways... there has been a long running debate about those frogs and their true classification as those that have seen true arboreus in the wild don't think the ones in Europe are the same thing. And as for me asking... don't worry, I don't need to and I don't like em anyways..


On this topic.. 

If they were imported into this country with papers that the US goverment recognizes as being legal and not laundered then we by default have to accept these as legal. For those who choose to not accept them as legal then there are a wide variety of frogs that they should probably never keep... 

Ed


----------



## sbreland

fleshfrombone said:


> I've met some really cool people in this hobby and complete megalomaniacs as well. All of you realize at the end of the day that these are frogs right? Nothing to get arrogant or condescending about. That kind of childish behavior does nothing to advance the hobby. I've seen so many e-tantrums on this board to put a preschool to shame. If you're done bickering maybe we can have an adult conversation on here.


Interesting... not sure if this post is directed at me but since it immediately follows mine then I must assume it is. I don't know you and you surely don't know me, so let's not start slinging mud here, allright? 



Ed said:


> On this topic..
> 
> If they were imported into this country with papers that the US goverment recognizes as being legal and not laundered then we by default have to accept these as legal. For those who choose to not accept them as legal then there are a wide variety of frogs that they should probably never keep...
> 
> Ed


Ahhhh.... sticky sticky subject we touch here. SO... in theory a year or so ago (before the understory imports) when vanzolinii came into the US from the Divossen line (supposedly) with valid paperwork from Europe, were these considered legal in your mind? Peru still had not allowed them out of the country and that was why they were confiscated and given to Divossen... because Peru never allowed their export. While I agree technically that if valid paperwork accompanies the frogs they could be considered legal, I still say (and maybe I'm the only one with the opinion) that the originating country not ever allowing LEGAL exports trumps any paperwork. I just don't buy that you can make a frog legal by giving it paperwork since you can easily obtain legal paperwork in Europe (for the right price). If we use that arguement, then why haven't we started importing mysteriosus from Europe with European issued CITES paperwork??


----------



## Ed

sbreland said:


> Interesting... not sure if this post is directed at me but since it immediately follows mine then I must assume it is. I don't know you and you surely don't know me, so let's not start slinging mud here, allright?
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhhh.... sticky sticky subject we touch here. SO... in theory a year or so ago (before the understory imports) when vanzolinii came into the US from the Divossen line (supposedly) with valid paperwork from Europe, were these considered legal in your mind? Peru still had not allowed them out of the country and that was why they were confiscated and given to Divossen... because Peru never allowed their export. While I agree technically that if valid paperwork accompanies the frogs they could be considered legal, I still say (and maybe I'm the only one with the opinion) that the originating country not ever allowing LEGAL exports trumps any paperwork. I just don't buy that you can make a frog legal by giving it paperwork since you can easily obtain legal paperwork in Europe (for the right price). If we use that arguement, then why haven't we started importing mysteriosus from Europe with European issued CITES paperwork??


USF&W does not recognize the paperwork issued by some European countries for some species... because of the problem with laundered paperwork (paperwork for sale).. This does not occur in all countries and results in USF&W recognized legal imports of offspring of confiscated animals that the natal country may still view as smuggled and illegal. If you look beyond frogs to the wider world of herpetoculture, there are a huge number of species that have entered the US pet trade in this manner legally (bearded dragons, Australian White's treefrogs (blue ones)... to name a couple). 

There are frogs out there that considered "legal" by the hobby that are probably imported on laundered paperwork.. such as a galactanotus.. One of the main exporters (note exporter not importer into the USA) of galactanotus to the USA a number of years ago was busted in Europe for laundering them... 

Ed


----------



## sbreland

Ed said:


> USF&W does not recognize the paperwork issued by some European countries for some species... because of the problem with laundered paperwork (paperwork for sale).. This does not occur in all countries and results in USF&W recognized legal imports of offspring of confiscated animals that the natal country may still view as smuggled and illegal. If you look beyond frogs to the wider world of herpetoculture, there are a huge number of species that have entered the US pet trade in this manner legally (bearded dragons, Australian White's treefrogs (blue ones)... to name a couple).
> 
> There are frogs out there that considered "legal" by the hobby that are probably imported on laundered paperwork.. such as a galactanotus.. One of the main exporters (note exporter not importer into the USA) of galactanotus to the USA a number of years ago was busted in Europe for laundering them...
> 
> Ed


Yup, the waters definitely get a little murky when we get into this stuff with a lot of very blurry lines for sure. That's why I like getting you involved here in these conversations... I know a decent bit about what's going on but you are good at filling in the gaps!


----------



## JeremyHuff

Ed said:


> All of the castinoticus are illegal because the Scientific import permit and accompanying CITES scientific permit included all potential progeny from being used for any commercial purposes as well as remaining the property of Brazil. This means the frogs transacted into the hobby are a violation of our agreements under CITES and they may be considered to be stolen from Brazil. So while they were legally imported, they have been illegally transacted across state borders...
> 
> Ed


I understand the same agreements are made for all Australian fauna with zoos. Therefore, all bearded dragons, black headed pythons, aki monitors, etc., etc. are illegal. I work at the American Museum of Natural History and the hoops we need to go through to get permits is insane. It took over a year to get Brazil permits and required permission letters from every park and land owner we were to visit. Also, everything had to be preserved. Venezuela and Colombia are also near impossible to get permits from. I love the hobby, but smuggling makes things almost impossible for researchers doing science.

Jeremy


----------



## MonkeyFrogMan28

not a PSD Frog, but rare


atelopus frog


----------



## Ed

JeremyHuff said:


> I understand the same agreements are made for all Australian fauna with zoos. Therefore, all bearded dragons, black headed pythons, aki monitors, etc., etc. are illegal. I work at the American Museum of Natural History and the hoops we need to go through to get permits is insane. It took over a year to get Brazil permits and required permission letters from every park and land owner we were to visit. Also, everything had to be preserved. Venezuela and Colombia are also near impossible to get permits from. I love the hobby, but smuggling makes things almost impossible for researchers doing science.
> 
> Jeremy


Hi Jeremy,

Actually the beardeds and Aki monitors came from offspring from confiscated animals bred in Europe and it was clear that they had been bred from those animals. With respect to the blue-tongues, shinglebacks, blackheads and womas.. not only have those been present in the pet trade for a long time (pre-1972) but there were also legal imports from Europe as well as legal releases to the pet trade from Zoos. (such as the those that came out of San Diego). The problem is that close attention to the details are needed. 
It is not only the smuggling that has created the problem with aquiring animals from other countries but there is a strong sentiment againt the US and Europe when it comes to research publications and cooperation.. as there is a strong sentiment that researchers come down, keep the best for the themselves and then don't credit the local researchers or others that helped with the project and finally biopiracy issues.. 
The whole epidobatine issue is a real hot button thorn in the eyes of a lot of countries since the US never ratified the signing of the biopiracy treaty... 

Ed 

Ed


----------



## Ed

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> not a PSD Frog, but rare
> 
> 
> atelopus frog


Actually not that rare... 

Ed


----------



## Rana Exotica

The_Greg said:


> there are three types of hobbiest frogs...
> 
> Common
> Rare and sought (troublesome)
> rare (because) unsought
> 
> Am I pegging the market correctly?


Yes, there are other frogs that are rare, but not so sought after because of their dull coloration. Azureus was once thought to be a rare frog in the trade many years ago, but because of it's amazing coloring it was heavily sought after.

On another note, frogs such as the histrionicus are harder to breed in captivity and difficult to import being from an area of unrest in Colombia. Blue Jeans pumilio also are not exported from Costa Rica and even though they are pumilio, do not have a very high breeding success rate.

These obligate egg feeder frogs include:

Pumilio Blue Jeans
Granuliferous
Histrionicus
Lehmanni

to name a few

Extremely hard to breed, high mortality rate of offspring, and short life span in captivity is what seems to be the main reason for being rare in the hobby. They do exist in captivity here domestically, but many of the breeders currently working with these frogs will not let just anyone breed them, even if you were to give them an insane amount of money. In time I think we will be seeing more of these, but for now, we will just have to wait for them to develope advanced breeding practises for these delicate frogs.

Here's some more info on the subject
Welcome to Robbster.com Dart Frogs Page


----------



## JoshH

Ed said:


> Actually not that rare...
> Ed


Isn't that the recent Nassau Plataeu/Suriname find? Do they have a name for it yet and are zoos working with them?


----------



## MonkeyFrogMan28

JoshH said:


> Isn't that the recent Nassau Plataeu/Suriname find? Do they have a name for it yet and are zoos working with them?


I dont know. Actually ask Ed or here is your answer Josh http://www.greenexpander.com/2007/10/15/20-new-species-from-the-lost-world/


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## Brian Ferriera

He it probably eluting to the fact that it is a subspecies of Atelopus spumarius witch is not that rare..
Brian


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## MonkeyFrogMan28

Ed said:


> Actually not that rare...
> 
> Ed


In the Hobby it is. Isnt that we are talking about?? I am lost because so many people have gone off topic in this thread about who knows more and who doesnt about frogs and paper work and blah.


----------



## Ed

MonkeyFrogMan28 said:


> In the Hobby it is. Isnt that we are talking about?? I am lost because so many people have gone off topic in this thread about who knows more and who doesnt about frogs and paper work and blah.


There is a difference between not being available and being rare.. it has never been offered in the US.. however it is not uncommon in Europe right now... so not rare.. 

If we are going off rare as species that have never been offered then we are going to greatly increase this list... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Brian Ferriera said:


> He it probably eluting to the fact that it is a subspecies of Atelopus spumarius witch is not that rare..
> Brian


Depending on who who's research you are accepting it is either a subspecies of A. hoogmoedi (or again depending on whose data you accept A. s. hoogmoedi) or its own species but it has never been offered in the US so it can't be said to be rare in the hobby while it is not uncommon in Europe. 

Actually A. s. hoogmoedi has become rare in the US due to a lack of survivial of the females.. I have one of the few left that I am aware of sitting about three feet from me right now... 

Ed


----------



## Brian Ferriera

Ed said:


> Depending on who who's research you are accepting it is either a subspecies of A. hoogmoedi (or again depending on whose data you accept A. s. hoogmoedi) or its own species but it has never been offered in the US so it can't be said to be rare in the hobby while it is not uncommon in Europe.
> 
> Actually A. s. hoogmoedi has become rare in the US due to a lack of survivial of the females.. I have one of the few left that I am aware of sitting about three feet from me right now...
> 
> Ed


dang..sorry for speaking out my rear 
Brian


----------



## fleshfrombone

I never claimed I know you. I was reading the posts and noticed people acting like petulant children. If you weren't then it doesn't apply to you. I like open dialogue without a bunch of ego's coming into it.



sbreland said:


> Interesting... not sure if this post is directed at me but since it immediately follows mine then I must assume it is. I don't know you and you surely don't know me, so let's not start slinging mud here, allright?


----------



## fleshfrombone

If they are being sold for profit then yes I do. What you are doing is responsible and bravo. Unfortunately there's a disturbing trend coming into the hobby where people are breeding frogs to death and like you said overproducing.



frogfarm said:


> Do you consider dogs and cats commodities?
> Azureus are $30ea here because people overproduce them and don`t stop them from breeding or go out looking for sales. I`ve been selling azureus for $50ea for about 10 years. And they are still $50ea. and I am only pulling a clutch a month and letting them raise their own instead of breeding 3 pairs like I used to. An azureus shouldn`t sell for the price of 3 ff cultures.


----------



## Ed

fleshfrombone said:


> If they are being sold for profit then yes I do. What you are doing is responsible and bravo. Unfortunately there's a disturbing trend coming into the hobby where people are breeding frogs to death and like you said overproducing.


That trend has pretty much been there for at least the last 15-20 years and is one of the causes of the cycle of popularity seen by a number of species (like tricolors...)

Ed


----------



## Dragonfly

My feeling when I became the caregiver for my first pdfs and also for the ones I have acquired since are that they are mine to give quality care to, and to enjoy (love). Although I do have 2 pair breeding, I do not see them as money makers for me.

I do not yet, have any of the rarer, pdfs. 

I have delighted in seeing them in photos and reading about them, and some I most certainly love to have in my care.

For the most part, I consider the animals of any kind who become my responsibility, as mine for life. 

We do have a small breeding project going with tarantulas, and some we have acquired for resale. 

With my frogs, with the exception of their offspring, they are mine for life unless something absolutely beyond my control requires them to be transfered to another. Since I didn't get them to become a breeder, I may breed, but certainly to become a primary business based on the current trends and information. Not only that, if I were to obtain frogs who didn't happen to be breeding pairs, I would love them and care for them nonetheless.

However, for the sake of the frogs, I do feel that the rarer and harder to breed frogs should be in the care first of responsible breeders who can provide the grounds for healthy reproduction....


----------



## sbreland

fleshfrombone said:


> I never claimed I know you. I was reading the posts and noticed people acting like petulant children. If you weren't then it doesn't apply to you. I like open dialogue without a bunch of ego's coming into it.


And I never implied that you made that claim. I was saying that your comment immediately followed mine and IMPLIED that it was directed at me and a couple of others, hence the reason for my comment. Not sure what your idea of "acting like petulant children" is but if the direction and tone of the thread bothers you calling people out isn't going to make it any better. I like open dialogue too but people don't give a crap about what you or I like... they are going to say what's on their mind and subjects like this (and mixing threads) can get into so heated debates and if we can't handle the heat of the conversation then we shouldn't be in the kitchen. End hijack...


----------



## fleshfrombone

That's disappointing. I think breeding frogs like these should come with some kind of ethical standard.



Ed said:


> That trend has pretty much been there for at least the last 15-20 years and is one of the causes of the cycle of popularity seen by a number of species (like tricolors...)
> 
> Ed


----------



## Ed

fleshfrombone said:


> That's disappointing. I think breeding frogs like these should come with some kind of ethical standard.


Join TWI... Come join us - become a TWI member today. and become a amphibian steward. If you want there to be a ethical standard, then you can register your frogs and attempt to help stem the tide of the rise and fall of populations due to popularity.. 

Ed


----------



## sbreland

fleshfrombone said:


> That's disappointing. I think breeding frogs like these should come with some kind of ethical standard.


This is a bit off subject but bears an important point based on this comment and what Aaron said earlier. Has anyone taken a look at the "what do you have in the water?" thread that recently got bumped back to the top (think it's in the member's viv's section)? There are some numbers there that just astounded me... people that have 70 and 80 tads plus froglets coming out their ears and some have not stopped pulling tads and others only pull clutches sometimes... that's just an unreal number of frogs... and it's not just one person, it's bundles. I've produced my fair share of frogs so I'm not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black, but I have no idea what I would do with 70-80 leucs, azureus, or tincs at a time. These types of things are what I think Aaron was referring to... perhaps he will chime in if I am wrong.


----------



## Philsuma

sbreland said:


> This is a bit off subject but bears an important point based on this comment and what Aaron said earlier. Has anyone taken a look at the "what do you have in the water?" thread that recently got bumped back to the top (think it's in the member's viv's section)? There are some numbers there that just astounded me... people that have 70 and 80 tads plus froglets coming out their ears and some have not stopped pulling tads and others only pull clutches sometimes... that's just an unreal number of frogs... and it's not just one person, it's bundles. I've produced my fair share of frogs so I'm not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black, but I have no idea what I would do with 70-80 leucs, azureus, or tincs at a time. These types of things are what I think Aaron was referring to... perhaps he will chime in if I am wrong.


You are suggesting a "breeding limit"? Maybe we should set up a cartel like OPEC?

The more frogs the better. The lower the price, again, the better. The more hobbyists -yet again.....the better. More education and awareness followed by conservation efforts (natural progression) are also.....better.

Veraderos plumiting from $250.00 each to $125.00 each - the Better!

The hobbyists that "invest" in a frog species only to speculate on it's perceived value in the hobby - like a stock, are they only ones that should be squawking.

Everyone should be able to afford most frogs....but then again, I'm just a hobbyist and not a businessman.

Now...back to my regularly scheduled trip to the beach in October


----------



## sbreland

Not a breeding limit but if you can tell me how someone plans to sell 70 common tincs or azureus froglets when subadults and low priced pairs sit unclaimed in the classifieds then it might make a little more sense. I see no problem with keeping up with the need and demand but when you overproduce things go the way of the tricolor, as Ed mentioned, and you get popularity spikes and dips... that is when we "accidentally" lose morphs from the hobby becuase nobody produces them because they can't get rid of them. Don't believe me that it can happen? Like I said, look up tricolor, blue truncs, or even mint terrib history for examples. 2 years ago you couldn't give away mints for $35 a frog and now they are back up to $75 or more. Personally I'm not of the mind that everything should be so available that it becomes cheap enough taht everyone can have it... I'm of the mind that we breed with conscience so that we don't lose morphs to popularity trends like we have in the past. Over production leads to popularity trends becoming more pronounced... that is just history repeating.


----------



## Rich Conley

sbreland said:


> Not a breeding limit but if you can tell me how someone plans to sell 70 common tincs or azureus froglets when subadults and low priced pairs sit unclaimed in the classifieds then it might make a little more sense. I see no problem with keeping up with the need and demand but when you overproduce things go the way of the tricolor, as Ed mentioned, and you get popularity spikes and dips... that is when we "accidentally" lose morphs from the hobby becuase nobody produces them because they can't get rid of them. Don't believe me that it can happen? Like I said, look up tricolor, blue truncs, or even mint terrib history for examples. 2 years ago you couldn't give away mints for $35 a frog and now they are back up to $75 or more. Personally I'm not of the mind that everything should be so available that it becomes cheap enough taht everyone can have it... I'm of the mind that we breed with conscience so that we don't lose morphs to popularity trends like we have in the past. Over production leads to popularity trends becoming more pronounced... that is just history repeating.


Maybe you can't "give away" mints for $35 because $35 still isn't cheap. At $35/each you're still looking $140 to have a good shot at a pair. 

The problem is, we're not following simple supply and demand: Supply is going way up, but prices aren't coming down all that much to compensate.


----------



## Rich Conley

frogfarm said:


> Do you consider dogs and cats commodities?
> Azureus are $30ea here because people overproduce them and don`t stop them from breeding or go out looking for sales. I`ve been selling azureus for $50ea for about 10 years. And they are still $50ea. and I am only pulling a clutch a month and letting them raise their own instead of breeding 3 pairs like I used to. An azureus shouldn`t sell for the price of 3 ff cultures.


Why shouldn't a frog sell for the price of 3 FF cultures? The higher the supply, and the cheaper these get, the less incentive there is for smuggling, and the more people come into the hobby.


----------



## Ed

Rich Conley said:


> the less incentive there is for smuggling, and the more people come into the hobby.


This has yet to be shown to be true as one of the most commonly smuggled (as demonstrated by confiscations (see TRAFFIC annals) is auratus.... 

Ed


----------



## fleshfrombone

Acting like a petulant child is exactly what it sounds like. You're right conversations get heated on here, but that's not because they have anything to say, it's because they are immature and can't handle civility. As for your other comment, I agree breeding frogs like that is despicable. There's only one purpose to that and it's making money at the expense of the original stock.



sbreland said:


> And I never implied that you made that claim. I was saying that your comment immediately followed mine and IMPLIED that it was directed at me and a couple of others, hence the reason for my comment. Not sure what your idea of "acting like petulant children" is but if the direction and tone of the thread bothers you calling people out isn't going to make it any better. I like open dialogue too but people don't give a crap about what you or I like... they are going to say what's on their mind and subjects like this (and mixing threads) can get into so heated debates and if we can't handle the heat of the conversation then we shouldn't be in the kitchen. End hijack...


----------



## Catfur

fleshfrombone said:


> Are you done?


Everybody please play nice.


----------



## sbreland

fleshfrombone said:


> Are you done?


**edit- Nevermind, it's obvious you won't be satisfied so we'll just do this by PM if you want to continue.


----------



## fleshfrombone

lol is that a nice way of saying put up or shut up? I've been meaning to join. I will as soon as I know how I'm going to by books for next semester, thanks for the invite.



Ed said:


> Join TWI... Come join us - become a TWI member today. and become a amphibian steward. If you want there to be a ethical standard, then you can register your frogs and attempt to help stem the tide of the rise and fall of populations due to popularity..
> 
> Ed


----------



## srrrio

This thread is weaving its way into one of my pet peeves of late…a lot of bargaining and pleading for deals. Yet I do not understand, as the actual price of the frog should be the least of a buyer’s worries, cooling, heat, electric for lights, light bulbs, replacing the cheap a** shop lights from Walmart every time you turn around and never mind if you are trying to follow ASN guidelines, fecal testing $60 another $20 for overnight mail…since I am preaching to the choir for the most part I won’t go on about the costs of keeping darts. But why is it so hard to pay the breeder what is asked for? 

Now, for my exaggerated fears but maybe not so exaggerated, when I listen to those that have such a long history with the hobby : If you were to say the the price of a Veradero is now $50 - are Auratus now worth $1? That would be cool, you could pick up a dozen at Pet Smart and feed em to your snake. Best of all Mysterosis are now legal and available to us “serious collectors” but shoot, they are $300 a pop …until next year.. Then we will just have find something new to tempt us with 

I rather like rarer frogs being out of my grasp .. and honestly, if I could have everything I wanted I would have nothing to dream about. Just like if all my frogs were easily visible all the time, I would not find them nearly as captivating. 

and yes, where do all the froglets go? … but I have babbled well beyond my usual 2 or 3 lines so I will end..

Sally


----------



## Tony

srrrio said:


> Best of all Mysterosis are now legal and available to us “serious collectors” but shoot, they are $300 a pop …until next year.. Then we will just have find something new to tempt us with


That's the problem though, there is a hot frog everybody just has to have so they can be cool, and then a year or two later the market is flooded and they get dumped for the new hot frog. How are we supposed to create stable captive populations if our collective attention span lasts such a short time?


----------



## thedude

sbreland said:


> Not a breeding limit but if you can tell me how someone plans to sell 70 common tincs or azureus froglets when subadults and low priced pairs sit unclaimed in the classifieds then it might make a little more sense. I see no problem with keeping up with the need and demand but when you overproduce things go the way of the tricolor, as Ed mentioned, and you get popularity spikes and dips... that is when we "accidentally" lose morphs from the hobby becuase nobody produces them because they can't get rid of them. Don't believe me that it can happen? Like I said, look up tricolor, blue truncs, or even mint terrib history for examples. 2 years ago you couldn't give away mints for $35 a frog and now they are back up to $75 or more. Personally I'm not of the mind that everything should be so available that it becomes cheap enough taht everyone can have it... I'm of the mind that we breed with conscience so that we don't lose morphs to popularity trends like we have in the past. Over production leads to popularity trends becoming more pronounced... that is just history repeating.


wouldnt it be great if people would pay extra for parent raised froglets?? that would keep their numbers down and minimize population trends. plus, ive always thought when ranitomeya raise their tads, they tend to be healthier froglets.


----------



## Brian Ferriera

Tony said:


> That's the problem though, there is a hot frog everybody just has to have so they can be cool, and then a year or two later the market is flooded and they get dumped for the new hot frog. How are we supposed to create stable captive populations if our collective attention span lasts such a short time?


People always want what they cant have ....a true series hobbyist keeps what they like and could care less what they are "worth".
Brian


----------



## Roadrunner

I`m not touching this one w/ a 10 ft pole. Everytime I try to explain about the lose of bloodlines by overproduction from one pair or the lose of mwff, nwff, etc. and the lose of conservation efforts by the cheapening of frogs I get pounded for it. cheapen the frogs and you`ll go back to all our frogs being supplied by smugglers who sit in hotels and get drunk while they pay kids to run around the jungle and collect frogs w/ no locality data, and not the proper care while in transit. It costs too much to get what your getting now and no one was here long enough to know anything different. If you knew how much it cost to do it right and pay to have the forests protected you`d think differently. If thats something your worried about.



sbreland said:


> This is a bit off subject but bears an important point based on this comment and what Aaron said earlier. Has anyone taken a look at the "what do you have in the water?" thread that recently got bumped back to the top (think it's in the member's viv's section)? There are some numbers there that just astounded me... people that have 70 and 80 tads plus froglets coming out their ears and some have not stopped pulling tads and others only pull clutches sometimes... that's just an unreal number of frogs... and it's not just one person, it's bundles. I've produced my fair share of frogs so I'm not trying to be the pot calling the kettle black, but I have no idea what I would do with 70-80 leucs, azureus, or tincs at a time. These types of things are what I think Aaron was referring to... perhaps he will chime in if I am wrong.


----------



## Philsuma

Where do all the tons of "overproduced" froglets go?

Besides going to hobbyists, many go to retail "pet" stores. Now, I know what you are thinking.....that's horrible! The pet store kills many of them with ignorance or inadequet care and what's left over, the newb customer buys and then they have the same hard time with them.

Unfortunate and somewhat true.

but...

Think back to your local pet stores. Remember when you visited them frequently and they had the same, usual, animals? Nothing exotic. Anoles, spotted newts, hermit crabs, iguanas ect. How excited were you when one day, you saw that they had a Chameleon or red eye tree frog? That's why it's "ok" to produce the amount of froglets that we do. While the mortality will always remain high due to beginner issues and ignorance - it's a risk that simply must be taken.

There is no other way to obtain growth in the hobby and therefore lead to husbandry awareness, successes and yes, even conservation. It is a natural progression IMO. Granted, not everyone will stay with the hobby. Some will always drop out or lose interest.

But ask yourself....how did I get here? What was my first frog and where did I get it? What was the price? Did I make mistakes or perhaps lose a frog in the begining.

and now you are a member of this forum and reading this post. You may even belong to TWI or other conservation entities. It all has to start somewhere.


----------



## Roadrunner

Philsuma said:


> Where do all the tons of "overproduced" froglets go?
> 
> Besides going to hobbyists, many go to retail "pet" stores. Now, I know what you are thinking.....that's horrible! The pet store kills many of them with ignorance or inadequet care and what's left over, the newb customer buys and then they have the same hard time with them.
> 
> Unfortunate and somewhat true.
> 
> but...


It wouldn`t happen if people spent time making tanks for their local petshops and sold them ff cultures to make a quick buck and supplied them w/ frogs and information.


----------



## Philsuma

frogfarm said:


> It wouldn`t happen if people spent time making tanks for their local petshops and sold them ff cultures to make a quick buck and supplied them w/ frogs and information.


I think we all try to "assist" the pet stores with good info - I know I do.

The problem stores are the one's with a-hole owners who blatently provide bad care and don't give a F.

When you see those people at shows or their stores.....spread the word and.....*no frogs for them*.

Entirely different subject, but you are correct Aaron.


----------



## Rich Conley

Ed said:


> This has yet to be shown to be true as one of the most commonly smuggled (as demonstrated by confiscations (see TRAFFIC annals) is auratus....
> 
> Ed


Ed, you're making my point that they're still too expensive. If we have $10 captive bred Auratus, nobody is smuggling them.

This is happening in the fish industry with a lot of animals, specifically (ocellaris) clownfish. The hobby, and places like ORA are producing so many animals that it simply is not economically feasible to collect them. I wouldn't be surpriced if Bangai Cardinals and Percula clowns get to this point in the next couple years. 

Captive breeding is a good thing. THe problem isn't overproduction, the problem is people getting bored with their animals.


----------



## Philsuma

Rich Conley said:


> Ed, you're making my point that they're still too expensive. *If we have $10 captive bred Auratus, nobody is smuggling them*.
> 
> Captive breeding is a good thing. THe problem isn't overproduction, the problem is people getting bored with their animals.


 
I agree. There are just as many WC Auratus down here in Importer warehouses as Pumilio. The WC auratus are going to pet stores as they are the cheap "entry level" loss leader (even though this term does not tech apply because there still is a significant markup and profit) frog that allows the retail store to sell a viv, vits, food, furnishings ect ect.

People are giving up breeding them because there is not enough return value for a froglet as opposed to a Vero or Pum. I hope someday, people crank them out and they are available at every show for $10.00. That would be a good thing.


----------



## james67

IMO the thing to remember is that we shouldnt follow trends even if a frog is "unpopular" at the time. if we hold on to the frogs we have... then eventually the price will rise again and perhaps become stable. i think that the veroderos and escudo, and vanzolinii of today will be the histos and salvatica and lehmanni of tomorrow, and even if production skyrockets, you can be sure that it will fall, and when it does, those that had the foresight to hold on to their animals will surely have the upper hand. look at lorenzo for instance.. they were available quite cheap when they were being produced, and now they are quite rare, and i know those that still have their breeders are happy that they kept their animals and didn't cave to trends, because now they have frogs that are near impossible to find. 

james


----------



## Ed

Rich Conley said:


> Ed, you're making my point that they're still too expensive. If we have $10 captive bred Auratus, nobody is smuggling them.
> 
> This is happening in the fish industry with a lot of animals, specifically (ocellaris) clownfish. The hobby, and places like ORA are producing so many animals that it simply is not economically feasible to collect them. I wouldn't be surpriced if Bangai Cardinals and Percula clowns get to this point in the next couple years.
> 
> Captive breeding is a good thing. THe problem isn't overproduction, the problem is people getting bored with their animals.


Rich,

You are comparing apples and oranges here.. There are significant differences in the production rate, economic of scale and demand.. Frogs are much easier to smuggle than clown fish as there is a significant lack of water weight to account for in transit.... It is economic to collect the clownfish as it costs the middleman pennies per fish however the transit costs makes these much more expensive to transport.. this does not hold true for the frogs. 
In any case, the example you provided is not in reference to smuggled ocellaris but legally imported. 

You are also ignoring the whole import cost of each auratus frog over the years.. I know back in the day when I dealt with the jobbers auratus were less than $10 each and were still smuggled... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

Philsuma said:


> I agree. There are just as many WC Auratus down here in Importer warehouses as Pumilio. The WC auratus are going to pet stores as they are the cheap "entry level" loss leader (even though this term does not tech apply because there still is a significant markup and profit) frog that allows the retail store to sell a viv, vits, food, furnishings ect ect.
> 
> People are giving up breeding them because there is not enough return value for a froglet as opposed to a Vero or Pum. I hope someday, people crank them out and they are available at every show for $10.00. That would be a good thing.


There are usually a lot more auratus as the dealers in Central America require the importer to take x number of auratus and other animals to get the animals they want to purchase.... 

Ed


----------



## Ed

james67 said:


> IMO the thing to remember is that we shouldnt follow trends even if a frog is "unpopular" at the time. if we hold on to the frogs we have... then eventually the price will rise again and perhaps become stable. i think that the veroderos and escudo, and vanzolinii of today will be the histos and salvatica and lehmanni of tomorrow, and even if production skyrockets, you can be sure that it will fall, and when it does, those that had the foresight to hold on to their animals will surely have the upper hand. look at lorenzo for instance.. they were available quite cheap when they were being produced, and now they are quite rare, and i know those that still have their breeders are happy that they kept their animals and didn't cave to trends, because now they have frogs that are near impossible to find.
> 
> james



The thing that is out of whack is that these frogs have a much longer life span than many other anurans like some hylids (less than 5-6 years) so it should be possible for those who choose to not rear their frogs for a few years and then be able to supply the rebound on the price..but we don't see this happening. People get out of them and sell off the adults to make room for the new trendy frog or morph (which is often a return to a once popular frog) and then we see the loss of genetic representation... 

Ed


----------



## Dragonfly

Not that I have any stats to support any answer to the question...

I wonder if some people will just want to get wc for the sake of saying that have a wc - and I am sure that there are folks who will prey on the ignorance of people who are looking for womthing exotic without even knowing anything about the animal in question.

Kinda cool to some to have what you can only have in secret and get it over the authorities.

How many stolen pieces of art are in the hands of private collectors - I can just imagine someone keeping a frog that way....


----------



## skylsdale

Worth being repeated:



Ed said:


> People get out of them and sell off the adults to make room for the new trendy frog or morph (which is often a return to a once popular frog) and then we see the loss of genetic representation...


----------



## james67

Dragonfly said:


> Not that I have any stats to support any answer to the question...
> 
> I wonder if some people will just want to get wc for the sake of saying that have a wc - and I am sure that there are folks who will prey on the ignorance of people who are looking for womthing exotic without even knowing anything about the animal in question.
> 
> Kinda cool to some to have what you can only have in secret and get it over the authorities.
> 
> How many stolen pieces of art are in the hands of private collectors - I can just imagine someone keeping a frog that way....


you don"t need to immagine... i dont believe there aren't mysteriosis, and pretty much anything else right here in the US. i would bet just about anything there is a good representation of most of the VERY illegal dart frogs in the US. i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there were multiple individuals in the US with captivus, for example. 

i don't believe you'd meet many (if any at all) on DB though. i do however believe these folks know what their getting into with care, etc. to the common person $100 is a hell of a lot for a frog, so 2,000 + would likely be for those who seriously believed they could provide the care needed to the animal IMO.

james


----------



## Philsuma

Ed said:


> There are usually a lot more auratus as the dealers in Central America require the importer to take x number of auratus and other animals to get the animals they want to purchase....
> Ed


Good point....I forgot about the "padding" that occurs. You are correct.


----------



## frogparty

james67 said:


> you don"t need to immagine... i dont believe there aren't mysteriosis, and pretty much anything else right here in the US. i would bet just about anything there is a good representation of most of the VERY illegal dart frogs in the US. i wouldn't be the least bit surprised if there were multiple individuals in the US with captivus, for example.
> 
> i don't believe you'd meet many (if any at all) on DB though. i do however believe these folks know what their getting into with care, etc. to the common person $100 is a hell of a lot for a frog, so 2,000 + would likely be for those who seriously believed they could provide the care needed to the animal IMO.
> 
> james


I remember someone posting an add from a japanese site last year that had captivus for sale for around $1000 us equivalent. If they are ther, then surely they are here. 
Its just te same as havng any other illicit item, you know who to talk to about it and who not to. An open forum on the net surely won't see posts like "my sparkly new captivus!"


----------



## Brian Ferriera

i was the one that posted it he does not have them for sale any more but it was this guy 
ƒ„ƒhƒNƒKƒGƒ‹‚Æ‚©‚¦‚é‚Æƒuƒ�ƒ�ƒŠƒA‚Ì‚±‚Æ‚È‚çƒ�ƒCƒ‹ƒhƒXƒJƒC
Brian


----------



## james67

but he has arboreus listed first thing. not for sale but obviously photos of captive animals.
sad!

plus vincenti, narino sylvas, lehmanii, mysteriosis, and gold auratus among others
james


----------



## frogparty

Lots of mysteriosus in the EU


----------



## Ed

frogparty said:


> Lots of mysteriosus in the EU


I could be misrembering but if I remember correctly there are/were questions between the different EU jurisdictions as to thier legality.. which is one of the reasons the US goverment has chosen to not approve any imports to the US. 

Ed


----------



## 013

rmelancon said:


> While I agree with your overall sentiment, temperature and humidity do not need to be regulated "almost to the decimal to even have a chance to breeding them". This is simply not true. I breed these animals with the same variable temperatures and humidity as my other darts. Yes they are difficult to maintain in captivity and offspring can be tricky to raise properly but it has little to do with precise temperatures and humidity levels, at least in my experience.


Hmmm i might have exagerated a little there, but i recall in one article reading that a 1 degree celsius more or less had impact when breeding the species. Anyway, at Cali Zoo they seem to breed quite well, from what i read.


----------



## chuckpowell

The reason they aren't being exported to the US is they were never legally exported from Peru. 

Best,

Chuck



Ed said:


> I could be misrembering but if I remember correctly there are/were questions between the different EU jurisdictions as to thier legality.. which is one of the reasons the US goverment has chosen to not approve any imports to the US.


----------



## sbreland

That was my understanding as well... hence rolling back to my comments several pages ago in this conversation. 



chuckpowell said:


> The reason they aren't being exported to the US is they were never legally exported from Peru.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


----------



## Ed

chuckpowell said:


> The reason they aren't being exported to the US is they were never legally exported from Peru.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Chuck


Hi Chuck,

I had thought that I had read through a discussion where a researcher in the EU had legally imported a small group on a Scientific Research permit and supposedly dispersed offspring from that group. While this is a violation of CITES permits, the discussion I think I remember pointed out that this was not prosecutable in that country but made them illegal elsewhere in the EU and the US. 

Now I could be totally misremembering the discussion, and if so offer my apologies.

Ed


----------



## rmelancon

013 said:


> Hmmm i might have exagerated a little there, but i recall in one article reading that a 1 degree celsius more or less had impact when breeding the species. Anyway, at Cali Zoo they seem to breed quite well, from what i read.


It could be simply what works for one person often doesn't work for everyone. Maybe the 1 degree was what worked in their case so they made the claim that temperature has to be precise. That happens a lot in this hobby. From most that I have spoken with over the years, getting them to breed is usually not an issue at all, it's just about everything else that usually isn't "easy".


----------



## Rich Conley

rmelancon said:


> It could be simply what works for one person often doesn't work for everyone. Maybe the 1 degree was what worked in their case so they made the claim that temperature has to be precise. That happens a lot in this hobby. From most that I have spoken with over the years, getting them to breed is usually not an issue at all, it's just about everything else that usually isn't "easy".


Right, theres a whole lot that goes on in these hobbies that is based on totally anecdotal non-causative observations. 

People see correlation and assume causation. Its how we're wired.


----------



## Knighty

i know it is not a Dendrobate but Cruziohyla craspedopus is so rare that the only one i have ever herd of for sale was $2000 dollars! cant validate the story but would make it a very expensive anura


----------



## 013

rmelancon said:


> It could be simply what works for one person often doesn't work for everyone. Maybe the 1 degree was what worked in their case so they made the claim that temperature has to be precise. That happens a lot in this hobby. From most that I have spoken with over the years, getting them to breed is usually not an issue at all, it's just about everything else that usually isn't "easy".


That could be it. I also recall hearing that the frogs are supposed to be 'picky' about their matingpartners. But i guess that's kind of myth too?


----------



## The_Greg

Knighty said:


> i know it is not a Dendrobate but Cruziohyla craspedopus is so rare that the only one i have ever herd of for sale was $2000 dollars! cant validate the story but would make it a very expensive anura


I saw that on a site recently, and i thought it was very stunning! I wish i could remember the site...


----------



## rmelancon

013 said:


> That could be it. I also recall hearing that the frogs are supposed to be 'picky' about their matingpartners. But i guess that's kind of myth too?


That part I don't think is a myth. I believe there are multiple studies that have been done on mate selection. From a general standpoint, and maybe more so for sylvaticus and histrionicus, I think the ability to choose a mate can have a positive effect on the success of breeding efforts.


----------



## thedude

rmelancon said:


> That part I don't think is a myth. I believe there are multiple studies that have been done on mate selection. From a general standpoint, and maybe more so for sylvaticus and histrionicus, I think the ability to choose a mate can have a positive effect on the success of breeding efforts.


i would think if they picked their partners then they would be picking the healthiest frogs they could, which would lead to better froglets.


----------



## stemcellular

ggazonas said:


> Thats ashame that you couldn't sell them. If I was in the hobby then I would have wanted some. I keep the yellow truncs which are great frogs, I sure wouldn't mind owning the blues too. Unfortunately last time I saw them for sale it was a group of 4 for $1200, (thast right $300 a frog) thats if my memory is correct.


BJ has a group but no breeding.


----------



## Brien

I know where you saw that picture on a website.


----------



## Corpus Callosum

ggazonas said:


> Thats ashame that you couldn't sell them. If I was in the hobby then I would have wanted some. I keep the yellow truncs which are great frogs, I sure wouldn't mind owning the blues too. Unfortunately last time I saw them for sale it was a group of 4 for $1200, (thast right $300 a frog) thats if my memory is correct.


I got two of my adults around $100 if I recall correctly, and that was over a year ago when they were still "rare". They are a breeding project of mine and should be around again in a year or two. As a truncatus, I couldn't see them being sold for more than $75-100, well at least I wouldn't go higher than that if they were going to a good long term home.


----------



## Shockfrog

JoshH said:


> Here's one you might not have seen to many times, lol. I had a pair of these back around 2000 and they did ok for a few months, but never bred. They didn't last as long for me as the A. spumarius though, and I still have never met anyone that can identify them or has even seen them! I probably should have stuck them in the freezer :-(
> 
> If you have any idea what species of Atelopus this is please let me know!


Atelopus balios


----------



## snooknfrogs

I thought that was agalychnis craspedopus... a close relative of red eye's??? I had pictures that I believe were taken from the high canopy in Peru... I thought that's why sightings were so rare was because they don't spend much time near the ground. 

That used to be number one on my most wanted list!!


----------



## skylsdale

Hm. I actually know more people with the blue truncatus than the yellow form...I've been looking for the latter off and on for a while, but keep running into folks only keeping the blues. I guess it's all a bit relative.


----------



## ggazonas

skylsdale said:


> Hm. I actually know more people with the blue truncatus than the yellow form...I've been looking for the latter off and on for a while, but keep running into folks only keeping the blues. I guess it's all a bit relative.


I have the yellow form...they are a beautiful frog and quite active and bold. Mine came from Scott Menigoz.

Still to young for breeding. Hopefully next year.


----------



## ggazonas

Brian Ferriera said:


> People always want what they cant have ....a true series hobbyist keeps what they like and could care less what they are "worth".
> Brian


Well said...too many people are concerned about money and what they are worth..however sometimes it seems harsh to put a cost on a living animal. 

Anyways in light of the mantella threads I'd like to add

M. cowani and M. bernhardii as rare frogs


----------



## bobberly1

Rain_Frog said:


> Price really means nothing.
> 
> Mantella cowanii is even rarer in captivity than O. histrionica or BJ pumilio. A. spumarius, green Mantella crocea, Mantella bernhardi, Melanophryniscus stelzheri, are also very uncommon.


I think this is a good point to make. Lots of the "little brown" dendrobatids are almost nonexistent and still don't sell for much. The rarer tincs are also cheap, but the fact that they're normal dart frogs and rare does push the price up a little.


----------



## Dendro Dave

I didn't see it mentioned in the rest of the thread, but Ranitomeya fulgurita used to be in the hobby...I assume there are still a couple floating around. I think it was 2 years or more since I've seen one up for sale. I don't remember who had them but I was in contact with someone who did several years ago. It's not my place to say who had them anyways. Nice frogs though, wonder if they are still around?


----------



## Dancing frogs

Dendro Dave said:


> I didn't see it mentioned in the rest of the thread, but Ranitomeya fulgurita used to be in the hobby...I assume there are still a couple floating around. I think it was 2 years or more since I've seen one up for sale. I don't remember who had them but I was in contact with someone who did several years ago. It's not my place to say who had them anyways. Nice frogs though, wonder if they are still around?


I like those too, kind of on a wish list for me.


----------



## Adamrl018

Dendro Dave said:


>


How much were they selling? That is a beautiful frog!


----------



## Dendro Dave

To long ago for me to remember, but I think the price was fairly low considering their rarity...maybe 300 for 2, or some thing like that....cant be sure though.


----------



## Chris Miller

Fulgurita are still around, being worked with by experienced keepers trying to establish them.


----------



## Vermfly

Are they difficult to breed? I really like the lime-green ones.


----------



## Chris Miller

Probably not if we started with healthy young ones.


----------



## Dendro Dave

Has anyone heard of any breeding the last few years? I think the last ones I heard about (maybe the only ones) had been around for quite awhile with no breeding.

Also has anyone heard of any silverstoni successes in the last few years? ...I haven't ;( At least I hear about the ocassional Histronica or even lehmanni breeding, but would be nice to hear that even a little success is happening with these.


----------



## SmackoftheGods

Dendro Dave said:


> Also has anyone heard of any silverstoni successes in the last few years? ...I haven't ;( At least I hear about the ocassional Histronica or even lehmanni breeding, but would be nice to hear that even a little success is happening with these.


Understory Enterprises is having success in Canada breeding their _legal_ Silverstonei.

minuta are a pretty rare frog. One that I'd love to get my hands on but I just hear _nothing_ about.


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## james67

ive heard that a major importer (from his mouth) has been working on permits for minuta for quite awhile, but with little success.

silverstonei are around but very difficult to find.

james


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## SmackoftheGods

james67 said:


> ive heard that a major importer (from his mouth) has been working on permits for minuta for quite awhile, but with little success.


PM me? My understanding was that previous imports of the minuta weren't done very well. Many were damaged and so very few have been able to work with this species as the damage to the animals prevented them from breeding. I'd love to get some that have some potential for breeding (assuming the importer imports them _well_) I doubt if there's much of a market out there for them... fortunately that's not why I got in to frogs


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## Dendro Dave

SmackoftheGods said:


> Understory Enterprises is having success in Canada breeding their _legal_ Silverstonei.
> 
> minuta are a pretty rare frog. One that I'd love to get my hands on but I just hear _nothing_ about.


Thats good to hear, I'd love to see silverstonei do well in the hobby. Minuta I never even heard about them coming in. Not a huge fan but I hope they do well if they come in again.


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## stemcellular

Sean tried to bring them in but I think there was some difficulty getting the paperwork.


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## fleshfrombone

I've seen silverstonei in person and they are amazing. Unfortunately once (if) you get them established and move them they die.


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## Dendro Dave

fleshfrombone said:


> I've seen silverstonei in person and they are amazing. Unfortunately once (if) you get them established and move them they die.


I think I've heard that before. I would assume its not a 100% sure thing they die, but just a higher risk then whats typical with most species. Sounds like something a couple generations of captive breeding might go a long ways towards sorting out though.


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## fleshfrombone

Dendro Dave said:


> I think I've heard that before. I would assume its not a 100% sure thing they die, but just a higher risk then whats typical with most species. Sounds like something a couple generations of captive breeding might go a long ways towards sorting out though.


Don't take my word for it. Ask some of the old school froggers that have kept them. Contact Darren and he'll tell you all about it. They are extremely sensitive animals.


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## Dendro Dave

fleshfrombone said:


> Don't take my word for it. Ask some of the old school froggers that have kept them. Contact Darren and he'll tell you all about it. They are extremely sensitive animals.


No I get that, I'm just saying while it might be highly likely to happen it probably is possible to move them to another viv without them dying...my guess is it has been done at least once. It should probably be avoided at all cost but it is not 100% sure thing they'll die every time. Kinda like shipping zaparo...lots die, they just don't ship well...but chances are a few make it through. (should also be avoided whenever possible)


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## fleshfrombone

I've heard about issues with zaps shipping. People tell me they ship better as tads than frogs. I bet it has something to do with rapid pressure and temperature changes.


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## SmackoftheGods

fleshfrombone said:


> I've seen silverstonei in person and they are amazing. Unfortunately once (if) you get them established and move them they die.


There are myths about these frogs all over. I had the chance to talk directly with Mark about these frogs and he said that the shipping issue (from his experience) is a myth. I suspect the issue with shipping is damage to the frogs from the initial import from the native country. The other myth is that they have to be kept super cold to survive. A healthy frog should do (and breed) just fine in a room temperature setting. I believe the quote was something to the effect of "sure they live in higher elevations in the wild, but a 'higher elevation' in Peru is still pretty hot."


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## fleshfrombone

I've heard the cold rumor too but it was dispelled for me quite some time ago on frognet.


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## Dendro Dave

I wish experienced keepers would talk a little more openly about the "silent killer" of dart frogs....In fact I'm going to let the noobs in on a little secret the "old timers" have been reluctant to mention...

AT LEAST 10% of all dart frogs, regardless of species/morph explode on contact with air...FACT!


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## stemcellular

Zaps ship fine. We as a hobby really should stop employing anecdotes as fact. Mark P. (the American) bred Silverstonei if I recall... no reason they should be any more difficult, biologically speaking, from other Ameerega. My feeling, though unsubstantiated, is that a lot of the issues were related to import standards.


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## Roadrunner

or chytrid or other parasites could easily have led to these myths as they weren`t really tested for. I have had 2 groups of silverstonei which took several moves and shipping quite well.



stemcellular said:


> Zaps ship fine. We as a hobby really should stop employing anecdotes as fact. Mark P. (the American) bred Silverstonei if I recall... no reason they should be any more difficult, biologically speaking, from other Ameerega. My feeling, though unsubstantiated, is that a lot of the issues were related to import standards.


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## Dendro Dave

stemcellular said:


> Zaps ship fine. We as a hobby really should stop employing anecdotes as fact. Mark P. (the American) bred Silverstonei if I recall... no reason they should be any more difficult, biologically speaking, from other Ameerega. My feeling, though unsubstantiated, is that a lot of the issues were related to import standards.


Well crap, looks like I stuck the old foot in my mouth again about shipping zaps, mmm needs pepper...plenty of salt. Ok well I am softening my position on that considerably if someone like Stem says they ship ok. Anyone want the rest of this foot?


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## Frogtofall

I had a chance to purchase some froglets of silverstonei about 10yrs ago at the Lee Watson swap. 2 problems, froglets were ugly as sin and way too pricey.  I kinda wish I had that opportunity now. I would ignore the ugly brown they start out as and would baby them like a kitten. Haha.

I have seen adults in person too. Probably one of the most shockingly colored frogs. Not only bright orange/red but also VERY large frogs considering they are darts. If I remember correctly, it was at the Shedd Aquarium back when they had the frogs of the world exibit. Lots of very neat frogs including the silverstonei and even the "hairy" frog.

Would love to see A. silverstonei make a come back someday. I would be on board.


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## fleshfrombone

I spoke to Darren who breeds them and he confirmed they don't ship well at all as did Tor. Then again I've never dealt with zaps or silverstonei personally.


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## stemcellular

I've had them (ie. Zaparo) shipped twice now with no issue. Again, if you balance the number of people working with a species, versus the instances of said action (in this case, shipping zaparo) and come up with a few incidents where they didn't ship well then yeah, it might seem that "Zaps" dont ship well. But if you extrapolate their presence in the hobby to say that of a more common frog and then do the math, I bet they ship just as well as other frogs. But this hobby really likes to use anecdotes as a substitute for fact...a la (insert species) requires a ...water feature to breed (Mantella sp., Ameerega sp.)....must be raised in a large enclosure (O. pumilio sp.).... cannot be raised only on fruit flies (P. terribilis, Mantella sp.)... doesn't ship well (A. zaparo)...

Sorry, but the way in which so many folks just accept anecdote as real data on this board drives me crazy. Anyway, game on!


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## Dancing frogs

stemcellular said:


> Sorry, but the way in which so many folks just accept anecdote as real data on this board drives me crazy. Anyway, game on!


I'm with you there...which is why I usually state a disclaimer when I post my anecdotal observations


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## stemcellular

Totally, Brian. There is a huge difference between folks reporting first hand observations (ie. I employed such and such method and it worked) and folks who accept others observations and/or generalizations as real data and then lend their support to the echo chamber. This then results in extraordinary value being given to an observation that might not necessarily warrant it. The online forum clearly perpetuates this, esp. as concerns species that are less common and bred by only a handful of people. However, I think what really bothers me about this approach is that folks don't seem to be challenging orthodoxy and rather just accept general observations as being more than they are. 

Hopefully, the advanced caresheet section can help focus the efforts of folks toward disseminating real data while undermining some of the fallacies that surround some species.


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## fleshfrombone

Oh I agree, a lot of anecdotal information is passed on as canon. What worked for one might not work at all for another, or it caused something unforeseen. However maybe you got lucky two times. I'd hardly call that quantitative. I would say getting two successful shipments of Zaparo is just as anecdotal. Do you know the anatomy of zaparo well enough to tell me it adapts well to temperature and pressure change? Why hasn't anyone else mentioned this with luecs or tinctorius. I get what you're saying but it's a little arrogant to assume you know better than people who have been in the hobby for decades.


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## stemcellular

That's my point, Ryan. I've always heard that they don't ship well but there is little evidence to suggest that this is the case. In the absence of data I don't believe we can default to the comments of a few that A. zaparo are difficult to ship. Now, that doesn't mean that they ship well (you are correct, that my and others' experience shoudn't validate the counter assumption that A. zaparo do well in shipping). My point is that until someone can demonstrate (biologically) that there is a real difference in A. zaparo physiology as affected by shipping there is no real basis upon which to substantiate claims that they don't ship well. The default, IMO, would be that like all other anurans they can be affected by shipping, no more, no less.


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## fleshfrombone

Hmm, I like this. Well said.


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## stemcellular

fleshfrombone said:


> Why hasn't anyone else mentioned this with luecs or tinctorius.


I'm willing to wager that if we did a controlled experiment with A. zaparo, A. bassleri, D. tinctorius and D. leucomelas (sending say, 10 individual shipments of each) to the same address (two of each to one of five locations around the country), packed/shipped the same way, that the data would prove inconclusive, with some frogs of each species demonstrating stress, mortality, etc. However, if someone is willing to give this a go, I'm more than willing to be proven wrong. 

We have to remember that the # of A. zaparo bred and shipped is rather small when compared to the number of tincs and leucs. I bet that if the A. zaparo ratio (of numbers shipped/issues with mortality) was contrasted with that of more common frogs the overall difference in mean would be insignificant. In more basic terms, if I ship 10 zaparo and 3 die it is the same as losing 30 out of 100 tincs or luecs which given all the threads on DB about frogs arriving dead, might actually be about right. However, without the data, I don't think we can make any concrete assertions either way.


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## fleshfrombone

I would argue that the sensitivity of the animal quantifies the lack of it's numbers in the hobby. But that's a separate issue I suppose. Damnit I want zaparo


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## stemcellular

I disagree, its not like other Allobates are widely available, or other epips. I've seen A. zaparo much more frequently than A. femoralis. Sadly, (most) people don't like little brown frogs which seems to be why they aren't more widespread.


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## Tony

Darren seems to have zaparo available on a pretty regular basis. I want a group for my collection, we just haven't been able to make it to the same shows for a while.


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## Tricolor

I think sportdoc has benedicta's. Ive seen em on the board for 400.00 each and I hear there easy to breed. I use to work with histrioncus yrs ago. They were red and pretty amazing. Found them in a pet shop for 40 bucks a pop. They had about 20 frogs and I should have bagged them all. had them for about 5 years, no calling but I think I had 3 males. I also ran into one tink which I still have never seen available again. Looked like the lemon drop tink.


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## fleshfrombone

stemcellular said:


> I disagree, its not like other Allobates are widely available, or other epips. I've seen A. zaparo much more frequently than A. femoralis. Sadly, (most) people don't like little brown frogs which seems to be why they aren't more widespread.


If more people saw them in person that would change. Zaps are gorgeous frogs.


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## stemcellular

yup, mine are gorgeous, same goes with the A. femoralis.


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## SmackoftheGods

Tricolor said:


> I think sportdoc has benedicta's. Ive seen em on the board for 400.00 each and I hear there easy to breed. I use to work with histrioncus yrs ago. They were red and pretty amazing. Found them in a pet shop for 40 bucks a pop. They had about 20 frogs and I should have bagged them all. had them for about 5 years, no calling but I think I had 3 males. I also ran into one tink which I still have never seen available again. Looked like the lemon drop tink.


Benedicta are becoming more readily available in the hobby. I'm working with them and I've got about 30 tadpoles. I know of a number of others who are working with them. I suspect when spring starts next year and I can ship I'll have quite a few adults/subadults ready to go.

Zaps are amazing. I always wanted them because of their call, but when I saw a picture of them I didn't think much of their looks. Then I went to Microcosm and Tor Linbo had a proven breeding group for sale and I fell in love.... I'll get some from Tor eventually but right now I just don't have the space. It makes me super sad


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## Julio

Zaps do not ship well, it is a very known fact from those that breed them and work with them, they have used certain techniques to get them to ship just fine. On top of that they are pretty sensitive as you will learn from keeping them, they can easily just seized on you when misting. 

Silversonei are not that easy to breed, if that was the case then they woudl be all over the hobby, they started coming into the country 10 years ago and not many remain from those that came in back then.


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