# need help, 3 out of 8 frogs dead



## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi all, I have a pretty large terrarium, 48 wide, 24 deep, 42 high. It's been up and running for about a year and housed 4 auratus panama and 4 Ranitomeya variabilis southern. It seemed safe to combine the 2 species as I have tons of vertical and horizontal space and lots of hiding places. 

About 4 months ago I lost one rani. It had always been a little scrawny so I was sad but I wasnt concerned for the rest. About a month ago I lost an auratus, and just now I lost a second auratus. Last night I noticed it was sitting on the bottom acting kind of strange, lethargic, wouldnt eat. This morning I found it dead. Im in a full blown panic now. I feel terrible and helpless about this. It's my first terrarium. 

A shot of my tank as of right now, the automated misters just came on:



Current setup is 2 T5 lamps (on from 9am till 7pm), 2 hid lamps (on from noon till 5), a moon light (from 7pm till midnight), automated misters come on 3 times a day for 20 seconds. 

For water I use RO water that I buy for a couple dollar at a roadside facility where you just pay and put a hose in your containers. I mix the RO water with 10-20% water from the faucet. Our water here is pretty good. 

Temp is between 68 and 80, depending on where and when you measure. Under the hid lamps it's significantly warmer, and I have a hard time keeping plants alive there.

Some things that I wonder about..

- do I perhaps have a disease? The frogs all look fine, they eat ok, the ranis walk all over the place, the auratus a bit less but they do eat ok. 

- do I feed wrong? I feed 2 kinds of fruit flies, large and small ones. I dip them in repashy about half of the time I feed. I dont feed much else. I used to feed more springtails but not so much lately. Is this maybe a big mistake? I have an apple in the tank at all times, and it's usually covered in flies. Since the tank is so big i usually try to keep it saturated with flies. 

- could the RO water be bad? I have no idea what the quality is of the water I buy

- could I have some kind of other toxic element in the tank? I do have a persistent issue with some form of algae in the water, and also on some of the mosses. Maybe cyano. I change the water in the front water area about every week to every other week max. That water gets pumped through a filter and ends up in a little pond area about half way up in the center. I also have some white dots on some 2 or 3 plants. Here's a photo of it. 



I also have a weird worm in my tanks, see this post: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/identification-forum/332881-some-kind-worm-slug.html

- could frogs maybe fall to their demise? All dead frogs were found on the bottom. A few days ago one frog was sitting on the glass on the side at the top, and a few seconds later it was on the bottom. I assumed it fell, and it got me worried about the height. The bottom along the edges is solid. 

- maybe the auratus and ranis dont mix after all. I know mixing is generally bad, but I asked advice beforehand and the consensus was that the tank was plenty big enough. I do notice one rani is constantly calling, and often sitting right next to an auratus. Maybe the rani is bullying the auratus, but then again, a rani also died. 

Anything else anyone can think of? What should I do from here on? Can this just be bad luck? (after the first 2 deaths my local store said it could just be bad luck).


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

Photos of the 2 remaining Auratus:


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

A few weeks ago I took a photo of the one that just died this morning..


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## Hercrabit (Oct 6, 2016)

Just going to throw a few suggestions out - I'm no expert.

First thing I noticed is that there is little to no leaf litter. I know from experience that without leaf litter frogs become very stressed and stress kills.

Next, those worms look just like the buffalo beetles (lesser meal worms) that I keep in my dubia bins for clean up (especially since they are clinging to that apple!). Not to say they are, but they look like them. Meal worms are known to cause impaction in reptiles, not sure about frogs.

Third, you have frogs from Panama and Peru. Whose to say that one or the other is a carrier but has developed a resistance to some pathogen that would be detrimental to the other? Necropsy might help determine this or other issues.

Good luck and hoping for a speedy resolution.


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## SirRobby (Aug 28, 2017)

First and I know i'm not going to be the only one to say this. Just because you THINK you have enough space for mixing species... 99.99% of the time you don't. Especially if you haven't been keeping frogs for very long. I know there's people on here who have been doing this probably longer than I've been alive and they still won't mix species.

Second, looking at your tank I don't see a lot of leaf litter and if it's the auratus that are having problems...they tend to be more terrestrial and the ground being wet 24/7 could introduce some problems. 

Third, do you see aggression between the frogs at all? Auratus are usually more of a community frog but that doesn't mean there could be fighting going on.

If it was me, I would leave the ranitomeya in this tank. and set up a second just for the others more suited towards their needs. if you notice stuff start happening to your Rani take them out as well and move them to a different tank. This might be one of those situations you need to let this tank sit empty and let everything die off that could be a pathogen...but idk how long that would be?


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi, thanks for the responses.

Both the auratus and the ranis seem to mostly hang out in the higher areas of the tank. I rarely see any on the ground. Could be a temperature issue? Or you think it's because they expect there to be leaf litter and since it's not there they just stay up top? Are the auratus supposed to be on the ground more? Can I just add leaf litter to the bottom of the tank, or should I use some form of ground cover first? Right now it's just a solid ground with some mosses growing on it. 

Im not sure how to spot aggression. One of the ranis calls all day, and generally does that close to one of the auratus. Is that aggression? I dont see anything resembling aggression between the auratus themselves or the ranis themselves. It's just one rani tends to be very vocal near any of the auratus. 

With the automated misters it's kind of hard to have any dry spots. Should I have fully dry spots in the tank? How can I accomplish that with automated misters?


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

Did you quarantine animals and did you process all plants? 

Any fecal tests?

How long has the tank been setup with & w/o animals?

Can you get a humidity reading?

Tank sealed or vented?


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## SirRobby (Aug 28, 2017)

corbosman said:


> Hi, thanks for the responses.
> 
> Both the auratus and the ranis seem to mostly hang out in the higher areas of the tank. I rarely see any on the ground. Could be a temperature issue? Or you think it's because they expect there to be leaf litter and since it's not there they just stay up top? Are the auratus supposed to be on the ground more? Can I just add leaf litter to the bottom of the tank, or should I use some form of ground cover first? Right now it's just a solid ground with some mosses growing on it.
> 
> ...


Do you have a false bottom or how is it set up? ABG?


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## S2G (Jul 5, 2016)

corbosman said:


> Hi, thanks for the responses.
> 
> Both the auratus and the ranis seem to mostly hang out in the higher areas of the tank. I rarely see any on the ground. Could be a temperature issue? Or you think it's because they expect there to be leaf litter and since it's not there they just stay up top? Are the auratus supposed to be on the ground more? Can I just add leaf litter to the bottom of the tank, or should I use some form of ground cover first? Right now it's just a solid ground with some mosses growing on it.
> 
> ...


Imo they’re up high majority it’s to get off the ground due to it being unsuitable for them. Not a dig just what I see from pics and what you mentioned. I would pull the auratus and quarantine until you can get a grip on whats going on. The separate territories go out the window if they’re both in the same area off the ground so it could be stress. Its really a shot in the dark without a necropsy.


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## Encyclia (Aug 23, 2013)

I would look at supplementation. Are you using Repashy Calcium Plus? Is it more than a year old? Has it been refrigerated the whole time? I would supplement every single time you feed. What did the frogs look like when they were dead? Has there ever been any attempt to breed in either of the species? How old are the frogs? Any change to the tank (redoing decorations, etc.)? What did the frogs look like when they were dead?

Have you ever witnessed any seizures? The frogs in the pictures look healthy. Any chance the temperature could have spiked? 

So sorry you lost your frogs.

Mark


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

To add to the good points that have already been made, it should be mentioned that your supplementation schedule and habit of keeping the tank saturated with flies could be a factor. Which Repashy product are you using? How old is it? How do you store it? There are a lot of variables here, and without a necropsy, we can only speculate. 

Still, flies should be dusted at every single feeding. When too many are building up in the tank, it can cause stress, and additionally can lead to malnutrition, since the longer they're in there, the less powder they have on them. If half of the time, the flies are not even dusted to begin with, the frogs are probably getting very little of the supplements. They probably aren't hungry when the dusted flies are dropped in the tank since they have more than they can eat in there already. Besides, they figure, why eat these bugs with this weird, dry powder that smells like Flintstones vitamins all over them, when we can eat ones without it more often, anyway?


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

Hi all, first of all thank you for taking the time to answer. I'll just answer all questions in this post.



> Did you quarantine animals and did you process all plants?


I did not. Here's why. I bought this system, including plants and frogs, all set up as is. The only thing I did myself was all the electrical work. Ive been wanting to get a big show tank for a few years, never found the time, so I decided to have one made. It was done by Dutch-Rana, a dutch company, that afaik is highly regarded. 



> Any fecal tests?


No tests have been done. I mailed dutch-rana about this third fatality, maybe they'll recommend doing one. Where would this normally be done?



> How long has the tank been setup with & w/o animals?


Ive had it for 9 months now, set up with plants and animals. They build it over a period of 1-2 months I believe.



> Can you get a humidity reading?


This is a bit of a sore point. My first humidity sensor died, it would only show 0. The next one seems to be consistently too high. Much higher than my 2 room sensors. Right now it gives me between 70 and 99% depending on when I measure, right after misting would of course be high. I would gladly get a recommendation on a solid humidity reader.



> Tank sealed or vented?


It's got a venting strip along the whole front. The top is a a mesh, above which are the lights. The top also contains some fans, they come on a few times a day for about 30-60 minutes, mainly to regulate the temperature (blows warm air from the light area into the terrarium). 





> Do you have a false bottom or how is it set up? ABG?


I honestly dont know for sure. I believe it doesnt have a false bottom, that the whole bottom is foam, painted to look like rock. It's slanted down to empty into the small water area in the front. 



> Its really a shot in the dark without a necropsy.


Where would one have a necropsy done?



> Are you using Repashy Calcium Plus?


ive been using Repashy Calcium Plus for a few weeks after recommendations here. Before that I was using a product the vendor gave me. It seems to be similar in content except it has warnings about vitamin A (https://www.dutchrana.nl/en/shop/fo...mphib-100g-dietary-supplement-for-amphibians/)



> Is it more than a year old? Has it been refrigerated the whole time?


It's brand new, but I do keep it refrigerated. 



> Has there ever been any attempt to breed in either of the species?


Certainly not by me. The ranis came from Understory Enterprises. The Auratus I dont know. 



> How old are the frogs?


I dont know. I assumed the builder would give me relatively young frogs, but I did not ask their age. I feel silly now. I will ask. 




> Any change to the tank


I regularly trim the tank, and I have removed some mosses that were not doing well from the bottom of the tank. No serious changes.




> What did the frogs look like when they were dead?


Ok, so late last night I noticed one was acting strange and I already feared it was going to die. It wouldnt eat, and sat all bunched up on the bottom of the tank. I was going to call my shop first thing in the morning. This morning, I found it what looked like dead. But it wasnt quite dead. And it did seize it's hind legs for a bit and died a bit later. This is what it looked like this morning. It pains me to even see the pics. I still have the body, anything I should do with it?






> Any chance the temperature could have spiked?


It's possible but unlikely. Here's a graph of my temps. The top graphs shows a weird dip, but that's from this afternoon. I have no idea what caused that. It looks like a faulty 0 reading. It was well after the frog died. The bottom one shows a dip as well, thats my weekly water change. Temperature is being maintained by a heater in the water, and fans on top blowing warm air from the light area. (at intervals).












> Still, flies should be dusted at every single feeding. When too many are building up in the tank, it can cause stress, and additionally can lead to malnutrition, since the longer they're in there, the less powder they have on them. If half of the time, the flies are not even dusted to begin with, the frogs are probably getting very little of the supplements. They probably aren't hungry when the dusted flies are dropped in the tank since they have more than they can eat in there already. Besides, they figure, why eat these bugs with this weird, dry powder that smells like Flintstones vitamins all over them, when we can eat ones without it more often, anyway?


This is a very good point, and one I had previously asked about on here and from my shop. I dont get how im supposed to consistently feed my frogs powdered flies since my tank is so big. By the time the frogs eat, all powder is gone. I try to feed close to some frogs (if i can find them!) and they do immediately go for them. But i never thought that me overfeeding could make this problem worse. 

How can I consistently feed my frogs powdered flies in this size tank? 

My local shop also gave me some vitamin spray im supposed to spray on the frogs once a week, but no one here seems to have any idea what thats about. So maybe thats because of this very reason. I stopped doing that after people told me to use Repashy instead.


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## SirRobby (Aug 28, 2017)

If the bottom is all foam like you said that's a BIG problem.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

Keep the body in the refrigerator- not the freezer- and ask your veterinarian about getting a necropsy. 

As for supplementing, you said you were using a feeding station, correct? Well, keep an eye on that. If there are still flies on the fruit, wait until they're all gone (or very few remain) before feeding again. You can feed really small amounts at a time, a few times each day until you have a better sense of just how much they will eat in one feeding and/or in one day. Once you know how much to feed, you can get on a regular schedule. Many people feed every other day.


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

Im currently using 1 feeding station and usually have a slice of apple on it. I have had multiple feeding stations in the past, mostly because the ranis rarely come down and 1 pair preferred the left vertical space and another pair the right vertical space. So I had 2 feeding stations high up, and one down at the bottom. I stopped doing that, because over time it seemed they all, including the auratus, only came to one of the higher feeding stations. The feeding station is a flat piece of drift wood. 

I will wait until almost all of the flies are gone, and then do as you suggest. Right now I feed 3 times a week. 

How many flies, give or take, do 2 auratus and 3 ranitomeyas eat per day? I have a feeling ive been significantly overfeeding them. 

Also, how important is it to also add springtails? I do that occasionally, but not consistently.


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

This is my current feeding area. It's just a piece of the driftwood to the side higher up in the tank that is sort of flat. Almost all the frogs hang around there at least part of the day. 

Maybe it's too small? I have plenty of space to make an area with a small plastic cup or something if people think thats better. Also, you can see one of the worms on it right now. I usually remove those once a day. They suddenly seem to have exploded, i didnt really see them until 2-3 weeks ago.


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## Woodswalker (Dec 26, 2014)

For now, you could give them about half a teaspoon's worth of flies at a time and watch how much they eat. Keep in mind, though, that this may not be simply a nutritional issue. It could still be bacterial, parasitic, or environmental.


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## corbosman (Jul 8, 2012)

Yup, i realise that. But the current feeding with Repashy bugged me already. Never understood how they were supposed to get enough with it washing off in no time.


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## Betta132 (May 12, 2012)

If you shake the flies around in the dust until they're covered, they should retain enough to have nutritional value for the frogs, assuming the frogs eat them almost immediately. 

The bottom should not be all foam. It should be soil or something similar, with a thick layer of leaf litter entirely covering it. As an emergency measure, you should probably add leaf litter for them to hop in, that should help and will grow some microorganisms.

You do not have "tons of space", not by dart frog standards, especially not if they're in the same area of the viv. 

Whoever that builder is, don't employ them again. 

I suspect the problem is related to a pathogen, and may have been worsened by the stress they're under. Definitely remove and quarantine at least one species, preferably both, with plenty of cover in the enclosures. Separate enclosures, don't put them together.


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