# why why why



## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi 

I am suffering problems with the A.Callidryas froglets.
They are all showing signs of cleft pallet!

They leave the water fine and within 24 hours the top lip starts to invert and the lower jaw starts to droop and extrude.

Why is this happening?

could it be some thing i am doing wrong? i am taking the tadpoles once the front legs form and placing them in a 50/50 set up so that they can leave the water off there own free will. i leave them in this set up for 24 hours then move them over to a container with nothing more than a shallow water dish, ome plant cuttings and a coco fibre substrate to retain the humidity. Once they have been in here for 24 hours the cleft pallet starts to become evident.

could this be down to
Temperature?
Humidity?
Not enough calcium in the water?
Just pure bad luck?
A DNA incompatability in the breeding pair?

Im really stumped so any help would be deeply appriciated.

D.Knight


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

What did you feed the adults and the tadpoles? What were the supplements and how often? 

Ed


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## BChambers (Sep 12, 2009)

I agree-definitely sounds like a nutritional problem.


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

My adults were fed on a mix of locusts, moths, flys and roaches. My normal supplymenting is to supplyment 4 feeds per week, 2 with calypso calcium and 2 with repton. When they were in the final stages of cycling i fed every night and all feeds were supplymented with calcium and repton on alternate feeds.

The tadpoles were fed on a mixture of sera micron and sera fish flakes, along with the occasional oxygen weed which was stripped within days. 

The adults have been raised under 5% U.V from bith and the tadpoles also were provided with a 5% tube from the day they dropped into the water.

It has been suggested to me that the deformaties in the tadpoles is due to the adults carrying cythrid, i am not convinced by this. What is the opinion on here?


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## johnc (Oct 9, 2009)

It does sound like a nutritional problem (I would say with the tadpoles, not the adults). While probably not responsible, I'm concerned that you thought they needed a UV bulb - I think it's possible that was not beneficial, though it's hard to believe it could be detrimental.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> My adults were fed on a mix of locusts, moths, flys and roaches. My normal supplymenting is to supplyment 4 feeds per week, 2 with calypso calcium and 2 with repton. When they were in the final stages of cycling i fed every night and all feeds were supplymented with calcium and repton on alternate feeds.
> 
> The tadpoles were fed on a mixture of sera micron and sera fish flakes, along with the occasional oxygen weed which was stripped within days.
> 
> ...


Deformation of mouthfeatures is known in tadpoles infected with Bd(chytrid) but this does not carry over to the metamorphs.. Instead I would expect a lot (or all) of the metamorphs to simply die. 

Oversupplementation of retinol/retinyl palmitate is known to cause cranial deformations of the type you are reporting... whether or not you oversupplementated retinol isn't going to be able to proven for sure but the links between excess retinol and cranial deformation is well known. 

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Ed said:


> Deformation of mouthfeatures is known in tadpoles infected with Bd(chytrid) but this does not carry over to the metamorphs.. Instead I would expect a lot (or all) of the metamorphs to simply die.
> 
> Oversupplementation of retinol/retinyl palmitate is known to cause cranial deformations of the type you are reporting... whether or not you oversupplementated retinol isn't going to be able to proven for sure but the links between excess retinol and cranial deformation is well known.
> 
> Ed


Thanks ed

I am getting all my frogs tested for BD so as i can rule it out, and know that they stock i am sending out is safe. If it is due to over supplymenting is there any thing i can do to reverse the effects?

Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> Thanks ed
> 
> I am getting all my frogs tested for BD so as i can rule it out, and know that they stock i am sending out is safe. If it is due to over supplymenting is there any thing i can do to reverse the effects?
> 
> Dave


It is a good idea to get them tested for Bd as that can help down the road however the deformations are going to be permanent in this batch and cannot be reversed. 

The anecdotal evidence in the hobby has shown that in anurans that are not deficient in vitamin A as retinol/retinyl, probably need to be supplemented a little less frequently with retiniol. 

As an alternative potential issue, what is the phosphate level in the water you reared/metamorphed the tadpoles? If the phosphate levels are high enough you can get a form of MBD that can also result in these sorts of deformations. 

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Thanks again ed

I am awaiting the swabs ect to arrive so i can have them tested for Cythrid.

I am unsure of the phosphate level i will have to check, to be honest i did not know it was relevent and have been only testing for nitrate, nitrite, amonia and PH.

Here are some pics of the transformation from leaving the water to Developing the cleft. may be of some help. The pics are also being reviewed for me by other sources. 

I will update the pics daily until there is either a conclusion or the froglets quality of life become to low making it in humane to be kept alive and has to be euthanized 

day 1









day 2









day 3









Thanks for all your help.

D.Knight


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

A number of institutions thought that phosphate levels in the water weren't an issue either until high natural phosphates and high levels of phosphate leached by filter carbons caused issues... and it took a little while to track down as people didn't believe phosphates could be the issue... Keep in mind that a lot of municiple water suppliers add phosphates to reduce the aggressiveness of water to piping. 

Its one of those recent newer items that has been figured out in the last 5-6 years... 

Is that the same froglet in all of those pictures? I'm asking because there isn't really any sign in day 2 and then suddenly it is there in day 3? 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Forgot to add... 

When referring to a cleft palate, that means the upper jaw is the one affected, in those pictures the obvious damage is to the lower jaw which could be more in line with a trauma or other cause. 
So the important questions are how many are affected with exactly that same deformation and is that the same frog in all three pictures? 

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Yes that is the same froglet in all 3 pics, he is quarentined in a seperte set up so i can monitor him without confusion. As the pics progress you will see the bottom jaw forming to like what it should be and the top jaw folding in.

I have had 12 out of the 45 leave the water so far and have all been like this. 

I am going to get a water report from my supplyer and am going to have my water tested for all minerals, metals and chemicals.

dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Knighty said:


> Yes that is the same froglet in all 3 pics, he is quarentined in a seperte set up so i can monitor him without confusion. As the pics progress you will see the bottom jaw forming to like what it should be and the top jaw folding in.
> 
> I have had 12 out of the 45 leave the water so far and have all been like this.
> 
> ...


Okay, the numbers indicate that there is something major going on with the system.. Keep in mind that if you filter your water with any form of activated carbon you could be adding to the phosphate load. 

If you have access to the resources you may want to also get the frogs checked for viral induced tumors... 

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Ed said:


> Okay, the numbers indicate that there is something major going on with the system.. Keep in mind that if you filter your water with any form of activated carbon you could be adding to the phosphate load.
> 
> If you have access to the resources you may want to also get the frogs checked for viral induced tumors...
> 
> Ed


Here is the picture for day 4









The only filtration i have on the tadpole take is a internal filter with a sponge media. i have added no carbon ect as i am aware of the problems it can cause. 

How would i check for viral induced tumors? is that something a vet can do?

Thanks for all your help

Dave


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Hi Dave,

Yes a vet can make a determination via histopathology slide. I would suggest that he use Northwest ZooPath (Northwest ZooPath - Specializing in the Pathology of nondomestic species).. 

Did you culture all of the feeders used for the frogs or did you collect any of them?...

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Ed said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Yes a vet can make a determination via histopathology slide. I would suggest that he use Northwest ZooPath (Northwest ZooPath - Specializing in the Pathology of nondomestic species)..
> 
> ...


All the live foods were purchased from reputable sources. I am going to make an inquire about the histopathology slide test.

thanks ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

That they were purchased doesn't mean that they weren't collected. Are you in the states or elsewhere from us? I'm asking as locusts aren't typically offered over here due to pest regulations. 

Ed


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## Knighty (Jul 22, 2009)

Hi mate im not from the united states, i live in england. I know the feeders are bred as i have visited the farm that supplies 90% of the feeders to my surrounding areas.


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