# Can't get my D. Pumilio "Blues" to breed



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ok I have had my 1.1 pumilios for about 2 or 3 months now and I hear the male frequently calling and the female will sometimes go to him but usually she just stays in her brom. Here is a link to my video of them YouTube - D. Pumilio "Blue" if that helps. Any advice would be great.


----------



## crb_22601 (Jan 12, 2006)

What is Temp, Humidity? What almost always worked for me was to give them a dry spell then mist the heck out of them. However if you have only had them for a few months I would just let time take its toll. I know pigface had some pairs that didn't lay for almost a year. Maybe you can get him to chime in.


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

crb_22601 said:


> What is Temp, Humidity? What almost always worked for me was to give them a dry spell then mist the heck out of them. However if you have only had them for a few months I would just let time take its toll. I know pigface had some pairs that didn't lay for almost a year. Maybe you can get him to chime in.


the humidity is 100% and the temp. is about 72


----------



## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

In addition to what has already been mentioned, I can add that pumilio can be pretty secretive and you won't always be able to tell when they have bred, laid, or are raising tadpoles. You may find that froglets simply 'appear' one day. Also, the tads are pretty small, so they are harder to spot in bromeliads, etc until they are closer to morphing. Just wanted to throw out another possibility. 

One more thing, I am sure that many hobbyists prefer to keep their pumilio at low-mid 70sF, but I prefer to keep mine at upper 70s to lower 80sF. That may or may not have anything to do with their breeding though.

Good luck.

Mike


----------



## rozdaboff (Feb 27, 2005)

Beyond the basic husbandry -- 2-3 months without breeding isn't much time at all. Just because you place a pair in a tank doesn't mean that they will breed (it would be much easier if it were true). They can take quite some time to get settled and begin to breed.

Post some pics of your tank, and describe all of the conditions, and it might help with some suggestions.

One other slightly important thing to consider - are you sure that you have a 1.1? You may in fact have 2 males with the dominant male calling.


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

rozdaboff said:


> Beyond the basic husbandry -- 2-3 months without breeding isn't much time at all. Just because you place a pair in a tank doesn't mean that they will breed (it would be much easier if it were true). They can take quite some time to get settled and begin to breed.
> 
> Post some pics of your tank, and describe all of the conditions, and it might help with some suggestions.
> 
> One other slightly important thing to consider - are you sure that you have a 1.1? You may in fact have 2 males with the dominant male calling.


I bought the frogs at an expo from guys working for joshsfrogs.com so they had his frogs there and were selling them as a pair so I don't think they would lie to me. And you guys are probably right about them not being settled in and what not or they may have eggs somewhere and I can't find them. I'll get pics up tomorrow cause I don't want to turn there light on right now and awake them


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

just because you bought two frogs as a pair does not mean that they are truly a pair. and this would not mean that they lied to you but rather that they picked out 2 frogs and based on calling and the size and shape of the frogs they gave you what was considered a probable pair. unless a pair is sold specifically as a PROVEN pair there are no sex guarantees. generally businesses and those who deal in large volumes, such as josh's frogs, do not have the ability to sell frogs as proven pairs simply because they do not experience breeding while they hold frogs until sale (again this is not a bad thing, just a normal part f buying and selling frogs. darts, especially pumilios show little if any sexual dimorphism, making it impossible to tell if a frog is female until she has laid eggs or transports a tad (in the case of pumilio). "blue" pumilio morphs are also reported (cant say for sure, mine should arrive in a month or two) as being less likely to produce offspring that survive until maturity, than even other pumilio morphs (which are generally more difficult than other frogs due to the fact that they are obligate egg feeders.)

the fact that one is always "hiding" actually points to the fact that you may have two males, especially if you have them in a large enclosure (which i personally believe pumilio need), however if it follows the male around as you described it as doing then you may have a pair. 

keep an eye on them and make sure you don't see any aggressive behavior, and don't rule out the fact that you may have two males instead of a pair, which could have previously masked the fact that one has been aggressive to the other,(since you have assumed that they are a 1.1)

if you see aggressive behavior separate them immediately. and in the case that they do both turn out to be males make sure that if you decide to find a mate, that your options are very limited due to the fact that the "blue" pumilios at the vendor you received yours from have no locality data, and therefore should only be bred with other frogs from the same shipment to said retailer. (i believe that he got about 40 so it would have to be one of those or nothing , unless you plan on keeping all offspring) again i want to be clear that i am NOT talking trash about joshsfrogs. from my experience they have been nothing but honest and reliable, i just think you may have misunderstood what you were getting (a probable pair, unless you were told otherwise), and therefore should be on watch for such behavior.

james


----------



## MrGerbik (Dec 18, 2006)

Be patient. I was 100% convinced that my Popas were not breeding. One day i saw a froglet. Ended up having SLS but still


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

I hope they didn't get the sex wrong. I should wait longer to see how things go but they show no aggression and they sleep together in the same brom. The male is the most active, they both usually just stay up in their favorite brom and then they go together to the bottom to hunt for flies but the male does spend the most time at the bottom looking around.


----------



## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, since the possibility that they are or aren't a pair has been raised... I know of a 'quick and dirty' way that you _might_ be able to sex them. 

Just a disclaimer: This is not a hard and fast rule. I'm sure there are exceptions to this method. Also, with younger pumilio it certainly won't tell you much, except that the frog has not called or has not fully called. 

Ok, here is a photo collage that shows three males. Each has stretch lines/marks somewhere on their throat area. The marks on the Basimentos are the hardest to see, so a really good opportunity to get a look or picture is necessary. Obviously, catching them out on the glass helps.












If your frogs are hiding a lot, you may not get the chance to check...

Hope this helps.

Mike


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

IMO if they are staying in the same brom they probably aren't both males, and i hope i didnt scare you with the first post, just want to clarify the need to watch for abnormal behavior.

by the way best of luck. hop they give you some eggs soon. 

james


----------



## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Also, regarding what "line" the "blue pumilio" are - this thread may help: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/26100-darkland-lineage-3.html The last two pages have good info, if these blues are in fact from the same shipments (07&08). Might be something worth writing the source of your frogs about.

Mike


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

Animals pictures by Judojack5_pics - Photobucket well there are the pics of them


----------



## roxrgneiss (Sep 30, 2007)

Judojack5 said:


> Animals pictures by Judojack5_pics - Photobucket well there are the pics of them


I think it would be just as well to study them closely when the opportunity arises. The belly shot isn't clear enough to see that kind of detail to me.


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

roxrgneiss said:


> Also, regarding what "line" the "blue pumilio" are - this thread may help: http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/26100-darkland-lineage-3.html The last two pages have good info, if these blues are in fact from the same shipments (07&08). Might be something worth writing the source of your frogs about.
> 
> Mike


I looked at that conversation and I really have no clue what lineage they are. I'm sure they're the ones josh was talking about getting in since they were a little over 1 year old when I got them in March of this year


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

roxrgneiss said:


> I think it would be just as well to study them closely when the opportunity arises. The belly shot isn't clear enough to see that kind of detail to me.


yeah those were kinda older pics but i'll get better ones tomorrow when they're out and about


----------



## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

When confronted with same issue, although three months is hardly a long time for settling in, I re-sex the frogs (either taking one out for a few days and reintroducing, looking for calls) first to determine if indeed it is a male female pairing and then give them a real dry and low feed month, this followed by a very wet and high feed month. It's a great way to stimulate frogs to breed and usually works for me. Look at your temps too, perhaps they are too high consistantly.


----------



## frogmanroth (May 23, 2006)

Hi, I would agree with Bruce also, Another thing, I find my good breeders are on the floor. You would be suprised what a few feet can do temp wise. Add flims cans, mist alot and change location of tank. There are many things to try. 

If you do think its a male? Set up a real nice temp tank mist the crap out of it and put the non calling frog in it, put it somewhere away from your other pum that way you can tell if it is calling. Mist every day heavy. If you dont hear it calling in a week put it back with the other one(its most likely a female). 

Last thing, just give them time!


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

bruce said:


> When confronted with same issue, although three months is hardly a long time for settling in, I re-sex the frogs (either taking one out for a few days and reintroducing, looking for calls) first to determine if indeed it is a male female pairing and then give them a real dry and low feed month, this followed by a very wet and high feed month. It's a great way to stimulate frogs to breed and usually works for me. Look at your temps too, perhaps they are too high consistantly.


how would I go about the dry spell and low feed month, how often should I feed and mist them? Their vivarium also has no ventilation by the way but I'm ordering a good computer fan to use soon


----------



## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

again please do not try and mix these with other pumilios. if im wrong someone correct me, but to the best of my knowledge the shipment that joshsfrogs received was NOT accompanied by any locality data. neither you nor anyone else can definitively tell where exactly they came from, which means that mixing these with darklands, cauchero, etc. would be mixing! bottom line. pics are great but again they were not labeled therefore no one can label them as site specific, including the retailer who labeled them as BLUE for a reason.

to answer the last Q you posed... mist less regularly, a hygrometer will let you know at what rate you should mist, all tanks are different therefore there is no definitive amount that will create a dry or wet "season"

you can cut back feeding considerably. once every three to four days will be fine. and if you have seeded the tank with springtails they will get snacks here and there.

james


----------



## joshsfrogs (May 6, 2004)

A couple of notes for clarification...

The 'blue' were labeled as such because that is how they were labeled by the importer. In a phone conversation with Marcus from SNDF months after we started selling them, he said that all the 'blue' coming through the "farm" were in fact all cauchero. We decided to keep the name 'blue' as we had sold quite a few under that label and wanted people to be able to mix frogs from our group without confusion.

The blue came in female heavy, so two males would be rare, but not outside the realm of possibility. From your description of their behavior, I think you have a pair.

Before doing a dry spell with those guys, I would make sure your humidity is high (get a digital thermometer) and really feed those guys to get some weight on them (feed small amounts daily or 2x daily dusted instead of dumping a ton of flies in there). Do this for a couple of weeks before doing the "dry" spell. That is the key to getting good production when you cycle them.

Also, there is a lot of dirt on your broms. Flush the dirt off the leaves and out of the axil as most pums (and darts in general) are picky about that. Water in film canisters really should be flushed daily.


----------



## Judojack5 (Feb 18, 2009)

Ok I'm going to try heavily feeding them and misting them first as Josh said and if that doesn't work then I will put them through a dry spell with less feedings. I would like to thank all of you very much, especially Josh for his input since I really respect his knowledge and they were purchased from him. Hopefully I will have good news to come in the future.


----------



## bruce (Feb 23, 2007)

Answering your question;
1. My "Dry" low feed month or two I feed ff maybe once a week, mind you these are heavily seasoned tanks with a huge population of springtails due to a great degree of leaf litter. I also do not dust the ff in this time period. The "Wet" heavy feed period follows with feeding dusted ff every other day, always with food available.
2. The misting in the dry period are actually turned off, with only enough water to keep the plants from drying out for a usually a month and 1/2. The "wet' period is my and the frogs favorite, with the automatic misters set to 3-4 times a day with additional twice a week heavy showers from a "fruit tree sprayer" with room temp water. It's my favorite because after a month or so of limited calls and movements, all the tanks become alive with calls and chattering! Ever hear 20 plus tanks of pumillios calling? it's deafining!
This additionally works well with tincs, but really be prepared for an onslaught of eggs from them. They seem to react more to the dry period.
The above was discovered by accident and additionally from referance to past pet breeding:
I traveled greatly in my years of frog keeping. My tanks are set up to sustain the frogs for weeks with no care. (no mistings and feedings). I found whenever I came back from an extended 3 week trips and went overboard on feeding and mistings, eggs would follow.
In addition, when one breeds finches, a very different feed is done when getting birds in breeding condition from the usual maintaining condition. Higher feed diet rich in proteins and vitamines vs. a bland seed only diet in the non breeding condition.
I really feel there are slight differences by the equator even with 12 hour days, differances like day/night temps, feed as well as slight humidity differences. I think this really comes to play the further from the equator we go. We have VERY few things we can control; temps feeds and amounts of. So I work with those. 

I have had a problem with galacts and terribilis in the past and am looking forward to using this treatment on them as they all mature to see what results I get.

Again some will disagree with the above, but my frogs are happy and producing. I think alot of us have too fat frogs which triggers a diminished urge to breed. 

There is alot about frogs we do not know but I pose a question to you. Do you think it is by accident with the new arrival of frogs we get from "greenhouses" in South America, they generally will breed profusely for me within a month or two. I think it is because they have been starved to a degree with low humidity and upon arrival here they become gluttons with all the food we feed them supplemented with vitamines which trigger their breeding. Then they all start to ease off breeding as they grow accustomed to constant food and humidity. 
A fat and happy frog is not a producing one.
Excuse my ramble...............


----------

