# Saying goodbye to Wendy



## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

Wendy, my last of two D. azureus, passed away this afternoon. I have absolutely no clue why, and I'm pretty upset. I was wondering if you all could help me pinpoint why she could've died? Ask any questions you want to ask.


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## Cfrog (Oct 28, 2011)

Sorry for your loss.


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## oddlot (Jun 28, 2010)

Sorry for your loss!How old was she?


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear that 

Could you give a bit of information like what the setup is like, age, supplements, temps, etc?


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## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

Moriko said:


> I'm sorry to hear that
> 
> Could you give a bit of information like what the setup is like, age, supplements, temps, etc?


She had a fairly heavily planted 10-gallon viv with a ton of humidity and a fluorescent light. Temps in the low to mid 70's. I'd dump a bunch of fruit flies in there every 2-3 days, and there were always plenty in there. Even if she hadn't had enough fruit flies, there were TONS of tiny little bugs-little baby pillbugs and stuff like that-for her to snack on. I hate to say I'm not sure how old she was.


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## Moriko (Jan 29, 2013)

boosh96 said:


> She had a fairly heavily planted 10-gallon viv with a ton of humidity and a fluorescent light. Temps in the low to mid 70's. I'd dump a bunch of fruit flies in there every 2-3 days, and there were always plenty in there. Even if she hadn't had enough fruit flies, there were TONS of tiny little bugs-little baby pillbugs and stuff like that-for her to snack on. I hate to say I'm not sure how old she was.


Were you supplementing with some type of calcium (repcal, repashy calcuim plus) during feedings? How long did you have her?


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## mongo77 (Apr 28, 2008)

You never mention if you were giving supplements.


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## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

I'd give her vitamin and calcium supplements about once a week each. I've had her almost a year.


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## whitethumb (Feb 5, 2011)

im really sorry to hear about that. i too named one of my female azureus wendy.


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## WendySHall (Aug 31, 2010)

Whew! For a minute there, I thought I was getting kicked off DB! I never knew there were so many people naming their Azureus after me. 

I'm so sorry you lost her. I think I remember reading a few posts quite a while back...didn't you have a pair? What happened to her tankmate?


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## VenomR00 (Apr 23, 2010)

Wendy first post says she lost him also.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

That's not a very large tank, and with it heavily planted was there ventilation? Or was it sealed? 
Here's a good thread that mentions CO2 poisioning with links to other great threads that go into more detail
ventilated vs. unventilated


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## markpulawski (Nov 19, 2004)

Also you mentioned dumping a lot of fly's, frogs will stress with fly's crawling on them, lots of flys, lots of stress in a 10 gallon tank with no escape. Could be a lot of reasons but leaving frogs alone a lot and not overfeeding adults is a good recipe.


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## TheCoop (Oct 24, 2012)

Sorry for your loss, its never easy..


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## Gnarly (Mar 3, 2011)

Very sorry to hear. It is always very hard to lose a pet.  

How long after her tank mate did Wendy pass? Hopefully there was nothing contagious going on there... Did you have fecals done at any point. Do you have any more frogs that possibly need to be treated for something now?


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## bristles (Jan 19, 2011)

did you see her eating ? my azureus pile on the ff they are added to the viv, were the frogs skinny or wasted looking when they passed ? again sorry for your loss  it's never easy losing a frog no matter how many you have


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

My sincere condolences, brother. 

Q: Did this animal show any signs of distress? Did the house get too hot/cold recently? Any exposure to chemicals (e.g., repainting, etc.)? 

I am skeptical of CO2 poisoning in a well-planted tank. Is it possible that you may have acquired an older animal? Do you know for a fact she was CB?


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Gnarly said:


> Very sorry to hear. It is always very hard to lose a pet.


Amen...

So, after Sandy I get stuck with a Chinese box turtle from an animal rescue in Manhattan (they had no power). Man, this guy is old--like decades old. Well, like a fool I have really taken to him, and I have no real idea how long these guys live.

Also:

Taz (the clown on my shoulder) will be 12 in August;
Elmore the skink turned 13 in December;
Bruce, my tree frog just turned 15.

You mean they're not going to be around forever?!?

To the OP--man, it is okay to be upset...


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Groundhog said:


> My sincere condolences, brother.
> 
> Q: Did this animal show any signs of distress? Did the house get too hot/cold recently? Any exposure to chemicals (e.g., repainting, etc.)?
> 
> I am skeptical of CO2 poisoning in a well-planted tank. Is it possible that you may have acquired an older animal? Do you know for a fact she was CB?


I was skeptical as well but Ed has provided information about it being a potential problem.


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Whitneyd88 said:


> I was skeptical as well but Ed has provided information about it being a potential problem.


Hey Whitney:

We need to clarify: CO2 poisoning or heat build-up (due to lack of air exchange)? I do not doubt that CO2 poisoning is theoretically possible in totally enclosed tank. But how many tanks are totally sealed? 

From your link, here is the quote from Ed: 

"People often force their animals to live in conditions where humidity is maximized at the expense of air flow this is done to maximize activity as well as reproduction. This is not normal and also removes options from the frogs such as the ability to regulate their body temperature through evaporative cooling. This is in no small part one of the reasons we see comments about 'deaths due to temperatures above 80 F,' despite the fact that the temperatures in their original environment being much higher. I've temperature gunned skin surface temperatures of over 85 F in some dendrobatids in ventilated tanks while the frogs were engaged in active foraging..... Yet I am comfortable in saying that in a sealed tank those frogs would probably have died from thermal issues... Poor air circulation is also a reason why a number of plant genera do not do well in frog tanks (example many orchids) since stagnant air promotes rotting of the plants" (emphasis added).

I myself grow plants that easily survive hot days--outside. Heat waves of 95F in part shade outdoors is not problematic; same plant will perish if kept at 87F for an extended period in a sealed tank. 

This is why I ask Boosh about temps; we know that a 75d room does necessarily mean a 75d tank!

Your thoughts?

P. S.

I keep tree frogs--everything is partially ventilated, except the prop tank. (Which can be a problem; some plants actually cannot stand going from 85-90% humidity to 70-75% humidity! These have to be slowly acclimated.)


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## Phyllobates azureus (Aug 18, 2010)

So sorry for your loss...As someone already pointed out, it would be nice to know about viv temps, supplements, age etc.
EDIT: Dang, didn't notice the second page. I fail.


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## billschwinn (Dec 17, 2008)

Groundhog said:


> Amen...
> 
> So, after Sandy I get stuck with a Chinese box turtle from an animal rescue in Manhattan (they had no power). Man, this guy is old--like decades old. Well, like a fool I have really taken to him, and I have no real idea how long these guys live.
> 
> ...




I have 2.6 Chinese Box Turtles that I raised from babies. They are adults now, I have had them for about 11 years, they breed yearly for me. I do have them in a large pen (9ftx27ft) a little overkill but they are very active during the spring thru fall and then the bury themselves for winter. If you or anyone ever has any females they want to rehome I have plenty of room.


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## Whitneyd88 (Nov 12, 2011)

Ok I will clarify:
I'm referring to CO2 poisoning but evaporative cooling is definitely a good point too.
Here is another thread that I posted on months ago in which Ed responded with info about CO2 poisoning. I used to keep all my tanks sealed bc of humidity issues which I've since been able to figure out and dont have a problem with anymore, now I make sure to vent my tanks. 
Important? Air flow


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Whitneyd88 said:


> Ok I will clarify:
> I'm referring to CO2 poisoning but evaporative cooling is definitely a good point too.
> Here is another thread that I posted on months ago in which Ed responded with info about CO2 poisoning. I used to keep all my tanks sealed bc of humidity issues which I've since been able to figure out and dont have a problem with anymore, now I make sure to vent my tanks.
> Important? Air flow


Aha:

"CO2 is heavier than air and if there isn't good turnover, you can end up with lower levels of CO2 sufficient to kill frogs... The plants can only efficiently take up CO2 that reaches their leaves so to assume that the plants will rapidly absorb what they produced overnight isn't necessarily correct. the fact that fruit flies can escape tells you nothing about the turnover of air in the tank."--Ed

I had forgotten about this. Also, CO2 makes us sleepy, so animals will not instinctively avoid it (This hits close to home for me--I don't think it appropriate to go into details here...)

Makes me wonder why you PDF guys insist on sealed tanks: 
--Seriously guys, are flightless FFs really that #&[email protected] annoying? Can flightless FFs live that long outside tanks w/o eating? Can't you just tell your significant others to shut the #%[email protected] up, lest you open a 32 of whupass? (I am not jesting);
--Do some of you utilize AC much of the year? ACed air is very drying...
--Do we really care that much about filmy ferns and cryptocorynes?!?

Not to hijack, but the best way to get humidity and ventilation is with:
--a vent! For a 10gal tank, a glass canopy with the back piece replaced by a screen and/or;
--circulation: A small fan blowing air out--only use during the day when lights are on;
--misting system--just one nozzle on the Mist King should be enough; everyone will mist according to his/her needs.

Back to the problem at hand--I have the same Q as a previous poster: Does not opening the tank to feed/mist provide at least enough gas exchange to avoid poisoning? Any one know for sure? 

Boosh: When doable, could you post a pic or two of your tank?


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## Dendro Dave (Aug 2, 2005)

That sucks OP...I feel your pain


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## Groundhog (Dec 17, 2006)

Gee, it seems that Boosh (the OP) is so upset he has not come back. Hope he does, so that we can help identify any potential problem(s). I know no one wants to hear it (including me), but we all go through it--that's how we learn.


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## boosh96 (Apr 10, 2012)

After reading what's been posted here, I'm starting to worry that the problem was CO2 poisoning..


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