# Wild Mushroom + Springtails = ?



## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

My temperate Spring colony was decimated by black ant invasion, so I purchased some tropicals. I noticed that they didn't really hit the button mushrooms like the temperates did...they just sort of ignored them, so I was passively looking for a new food source that would make them produce. One day when my wife was working in the yard, she found a huge mushroom in the lawn and asked me "do you want me to give it to the springtails?"

"Sure", I said, not really listening or giving it much thought.

Well, sure enough they ate the whole thing in two days and the population EXPLODED. "Awesome", methinks, "There are always a couple mushrooms in the lawn...that's my new food source". I'm embarrassed to say I did this a couple times.

Well as I noticed new shrooms in the lawn the other day, it hits me. What the heck am I thinking??? I wouldn't just pick up any mushroom and eat it myself, but here I'm just tossing them in the food chain one step ahead of my frogs! Honestly, I'm not normally this dumb.

Seriously, I'm not.

But then I wonder "well, this has to happen in the wild, and obviously frogs have a unique way of processing some toxins...then again, they don't get a giant dose of springtails that have been feeding of the same flora in the wild...or do they? Would the springtails even eat toxic mushrooms? I get mushrooms in the vivs all the time...what if seeded springs ate off that and it was toxic and ...dang I don't know. "

By this time I had fed (and continue to feed) these springs to about 8 baby azeurus, who are all still alive, fat and healthy a month later. I am not planning on feeding wild mushrooms to feeder insects anymore, but do any of the Big Brains (Ed, I'm looking at you) have an educated opinion on this? Did I just get lucky with benign shrooms, or are Northern California lawn shrooms safe, or did I marginally poison my froglets, or has biology found a way to sidestep the whole poison fungus via springtail issue.

Does anybody know?


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## Scott (Feb 17, 2004)

I'd think that if it didn't kill the springtails - you're likely safe.

Mushrooms are a good springtail food source... fungus among us.

s


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

most of your big lawn mushrooms aern't the super toxic mushrooms like galerinas which are little with rusty orange gills. Insects and molluscs seem to be able to eat whatever they want with little effect when it comes to mushrooms... hence the fungus flies all over my psilocybe azurescens back in the day. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I doubt the alkaloids if present in the fungus survive the digestive process of the springtails. I WOULD be more concerned about contaminating your culture with other insects/arthopods as wild mushrooms teem with microfauna.


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## Boondoggle (Dec 9, 2007)

Yikes, I hadn't even considered the microfauna. Thanks for the info. It makes sense. Incidentally, I found the trops really seem to do well on Fleischman's dry yeast.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

frogparty said:


> most of your big lawn mushrooms aern't the super toxic mushrooms like galerinas which are little with rusty orange gills. Insects and molluscs seem to be able to eat whatever they want with little effect when it comes to mushrooms... hence the fungus flies all over my psilocybe azurescens back in the day. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I doubt the alkaloids if present in the fungus survive the digestive process of the springtails. I WOULD be more concerned about contaminating your culture with other insects/arthopods as wild mushrooms teem with microfauna.


Unless its an amanita growing near/under a tree... 

I wouldn't make the assumption that the toxins would not be passed on to the frogs..

Mushroom toxins do not affect all animals the same way.. for example there are reports of people getting poisoned by eating box turtles that have consumed mushrooms such as amanitas. (I couldn't substantiate this via a verified report but its out there in assorted literature). 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

I know for a fact that muscimol in amanitas is converted to ibotenic acid as it passes through most digestive systems, not too sure about insects. ibotenic acid being a hallucinogen while muscimolis the poison. I have observed frogs and salamanders eating fungus gnats crawling out of amanita muscaria as well as amanita pantherina with no observed ill effects as I caught one of these salamanders(an ensatina) and kept it as a pet for several weeks. Most alkaloids are fairly sensitive molecular compounds, especially mushroom based where uv from sunlight or heat at 100 degrees severley degrades these alkaloids. I still think contaminating your culture with microfauna is a bigger threat than what mushroom you put in there for them to eat. BUT... better safe than sorry. All tree growing polypore mushrooms can be guaranteed safe, however so grab a gandoderma or a trametes off a tree and go nuts if you still want to use wild shrooms( both of these genus posess anti cancer agents.) they make a drug called krestin or psk from trametes versicolor that is proving very effective against cancer. Trametes versicolor is commonly called turkey tail and is ubiquitous throughout the planet. I have it in my yard and I am sure a walk in the woods will yield some for you even in the winter since they also posess antibacterial properties that make them slow to decay. Fungi Perfecti®: gourmet and medicinal mushrooms sells culture kits of these and I will tell you that growing mushrooms is interesting and fun and easy and would provide all your springtails with the highest quality shrooms available. You could get an oyster mushroom kit to compost all your coffee grounds etc. Eat the shrooms you don't feed to your st's and the compost they create is clean and ph 7.0


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

The major toxins in some of the amanitas are not alkaloids as I understand it.. the ones I was referring to were the Amatoxins. I was aware of the process of muscimol and was not concerned by it. These toxins (the amatoxins) are also stable for at least several minutes at 100 C (see http://dohs.ors.od.nih.gov/pdf/Amatoxins REVISED.pdf)
As I noted above, these toxins do not appear to affect all vertebrates the same way but there have also been reported incidences of amanita poisonings by handling those mushrooms and then ingesting food so there could be a risk (at least in frogs exposed parentally there is signs of toxic effects (see the above document)). 

Ed


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## james67 (Jun 28, 2008)

azurescens huh?  for mycological study of course. not to hijack the post but amanita muscaria mushrooms are and have been eaten by humans as far back as 7000 years ago infact there are receptors in your brain called mAChRs or Muscarinic receptors. there are also countless historical records of the ritualistic and recreational use of ananita muscaria. there is also strong evidence that amanita muscaria were not only being eaten but that they known to cause inebriation between 5000 and 3000 BCE.

james

sorry ed i was typing and you posted before i did


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

That's why I said better safe than sorry. Mushroom poisoning sure would be a nasty way to go. 
I will check out that article ED-I like you you are a treasure trove of info


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Slight hijack...

I need to get the new edition of Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms... I have the first edition and really enjoyed the information in it. 
I've collected "hen of woods" (aka maitake) from our property and enjoy cooking with mushrooms.
I've also spoken to people that had the nasty reaction to alcohol from consuming inky caps and driking alcohol.... 

Ed


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## Roadrunner (Mar 6, 2004)

Aminita varna and verosa, the death angels, are very different than aminita muscaria. We have both here and you can only tell them apart from spore prints. One causes such severe muscle reactions that you`ll literally break your back before you die(so I heard from my old botany teacher who worked on id`ing the different amanita`s by lipid concentration). The muscaria here is not the same red and white dotted as in the rockies, it looks exactly like the death angels.
I`ve collected lots of mushrooms in Missouri, working there. Chantrelle, small chantrelle, old man of the woods, hen of the woods, indigo milkies, the fishy tasting milkies(forgot their name) amongst others. Their aren`t as many toxic mushrooms as one would think. Just a couple look alikes you really want to steer clear of. Mushrooms also affect humans differently for each person. A lot of mushrooms are listed as possibly edible because of the difference in reactions between different individuals.


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Hey ed- do you have paul stamets new book, mycelium running? awesome! lots of bioremediation info using oysters and other mushies to clean up everything from oil to vx nerve gas


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

Not yet.. Its on my list, unfortunately I spent a lot of my budget on some amphibian physiology texts. 

Ed


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## frogparty (Dec 27, 2007)

Ahhh gotta have priorities. Definitely a must read and own book. Paul Stamets is a genius


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I saw it on the website and thought about it but if I had another book delivered right now my wife would probably beat me... (one of the texts was well over $100 (which was not the most expensive book I've picked up (that was $325 plus shipping for a copy of Caecilians of the World) but was still more than I was supposed to spend). 

Ed


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## jubjub47 (Sep 9, 2008)

Ed said:


> (that was $325 plus shipping for a copy of Caecilians of the World)


Whoa! And I was sweating the $165 for Poison Frogs


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

I'd have to go back and look but I probably spend at least a grand a year on books and other information. 

Ed


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