# First Viv - Do you think I'm "frog ready"



## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

I want to put 3 Dendrobates tinctorius ' azureus in a Viv I have had running for about 2 months.
It runs compact fluorescent bulbs X 2 (100 watt incandescent equiv) for 12 hrs on and 12 off.
Temp runs 72 at coldest at night and 76 in the day (78 at hottest - when the humidity gets low)
Humidity in the 70-85 range as long as I give it a mist every other day or so - any longer than that and it drops into the 60's (that's when the temp can get up too high)
Substrate is from Josh's frogs, and set up per their instructions.
Plants were from my own cuttings, all organic and stripped to the bare root - no pesticides all organic.
Plants are thriving.
I have a few orange isopods in there (from bugs in cyberspace). I haven't seen them much, but they are in there - if I move their potato chunk there is usually a couple, sometimes I'll see one on the glass in the substrate. 
Springtails - I need springtails. Shipping them overnight to Texas is cost prohibitive so I want to order them with the frogs. I would love to get some locally and I have a post up to that effect on the local section. Fingers crossed.
I have an exo terra fountain in there, water is running nicely, I have the fogger, bit it's not running - put out too much heat, maybe I can use it in the winter months.

What do you think? Am I ready for frogs? Any suggestions?


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

Picture...


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

The only things that stand out to me - 

Will need to put some leaf litter in there to make the frogs happy, and sterilize the leaf litter first.

How long have the plants been in there? If you just planted them there might be some die off, but sounds like you have a good handle on those.


That's all I can think of. Someone with more experience may be able to say more.

Good luck,
Thane


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

Plants in about 2 months. I had some die off particularly of the moss. 
I used josh's frogs leaf litter ground under plants is about 50/50 leaf litter and moss. 
Thanks for the input. It's good to know I haven't missed anything huge.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

TheLuckiestMommy said:


> Plants in about 2 months. I had some die off particularly of the moss.
> I used josh's frogs leaf litter ground under plants is about 50/50 leaf litter and moss.
> Thanks for the input. It's good to know I haven't missed anything huge.


Is that the exo-terra waterfall back there?

If so... be very mindful of that. If you notice, it just kind of runs down those rocks into the pool area. The problem is, is something like a frog or a leaf re-routes it so it's OUTSIDE the pool, there's often nothing to change it back in.

I had that thing ruin my first vivarium.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

Got it. I'll keep an eye on the waterfall.

My plan for that is to only keep enough water in there that the pump would run dry before the water level got high enough to get past the drainage layer and into the substrate. If that doesn't work, I can stick an airline tube down into the drainage layer and siphon off the excess.

I'm staring to get excited about frogs!


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

TheLuckiestMommy said:


> Got it. I'll keep an eye on the waterfall.
> 
> My plan for that is to only keep enough water in there that the pump would run dry before the water level got high enough to get past the drainage layer and into the substrate. If that doesn't work, I can stick an airline tube down into the drainage layer and siphon off the excess.
> 
> I'm staring to get excited about frogs!


I think I made my big mistake by placing that waterfall on my substrate instead of directly on my drainage layer... so I turned the whole thing into swamp.


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

I don't have a waterfall, so just asking for the benefit of others - could you prevent that by lining below and around the water feature with some sort of stones, like growstones or something, or have it run off onto some slate or something, so that the water would drain all the way down to the drainage layer without bleeding into the substrate?


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## Warp (Jul 12, 2015)

Do some searching and reading on tincs. The general advice is to only keep them in pairs as adults. 

You may already know that and are just watching for aggression/sexing and picking one to remove when the time is right, just making sure you are aware.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

That's a good point. I want to up the odds of getting a mated pair, so I'll watch as they grow for any problems. I have a cool little bio dome for when or if it becomes necessary to divide them up.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

There is something that does not convince me in your viv. It is true that the pic is not so well defined, but some plants do not look to me very healthy. The waterfall also does not convince me by an aesthetical point of view.
Obviously, these are my personal impressions and I may be wrong, but I have answered your questions.
If you plan to put in a pair of azureus, I advise you also to put woodlices, as well as springtails.

Bio dome? What is it?


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

The back up tank is a wonder bubble 
WonderBubble - Types of Habitats
Isopods (that's wood lice, right?) have been in a few days. I don't see them often but if I watch closely one will toddle by. I got orange ones from bugs in cyberspace, and I held some out to grow a culture. These seem to be hard to find, so maybe I can get a strong culture going and spread them around a bit. 
I also have some dwarf purple ones coming next week from genesis exotics. I plan to culture those as well. 
Springtails will be here next week as well and I plan to put them strait into the Viv, I'm hoping for tropical springtails, but I ordered them in a pack so we shall see.
I'm not certain about the aesthetic of the fountain either, but I want a water source until I put in an automatic misting system or an external fogger, just in case. 
I'm hoping to put frogs in towards the end of the month. But sooner if I can find some locally.

I really do appreciate the input. I ran a salt water reef for decades and I know the value of learning from the wisdom of other people's experience.

Thanks so much, and keep them coming!


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

There are a few gnats in my Viv this morning. Should I worry about that?

When I open the lid it smells nice and "earthy" in there, not as strong as it did when I was putting the ABG mix in, but same sort of smell. Temp is 74 and humidity is 79%.

Any thoughts?


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## thane (Sep 11, 2014)

You should be fine dumping the springtails in. If you want to build up the population of springtails and isopods before you put in the frogs, you can add small pinches of yeast and fish flakes around the substrate.

The gnats are probably just fungus gnats, common issue with plants. I had some before I put the frogs in. I'd suck them up with a dustbuster when I saw them. When you put the frogs in there, they should take care of them also.


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## rigel10 (Jun 1, 2012)

Fine. Smell is a sign of environmental health: if it is nice, everything is fine.
These 'WonderBubble' are striking from an aesthetical point of view, but they do not looks to me appropriate to keep frogs. But I could be wrong. I hope these bubbles are large enough.
About frogs, I'm sure you will do well. Keep us updated!
Greetings


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks so much everybody. I am very glad to have the benefit of all your experience.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

Your tank looks great!  Especially for your first one. I think you've got your bases all covered and you should be good for frogs! 

Cant's wait to see them when you get them.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

I had the fogger on for a bit today, and the glass got steamed up. There are tiny bugs on the glass, crawling around, leaving little trails in the steamed glass. I'm thinking that they are either springtails or baby isopods, probably the latter. 
Anybody have any thoughts on the matter?
I tried to take a picture, but they are too tiny to show up.


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## edgeofthefreak (Jan 2, 2014)

Without a picture, it's just a guess. I have the same thing without a fogger, as I have a terrarium with a lot of humidity and little ventilation from outside.

On days when I open my apartment patio door, and a rush of cooler air comes in, the whole terrarium inside fogs up. After a few hours, springtails are able to 'climb' the condensation with ease. If I let it breathe a bit, the glass dries up, and they lose traction.

Often, I find only the youngens can climb like this, and rarely see adults up on the glass. That's likely why you can't get a good shot of them.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

TheLuckiestMommy said:


> I had the fogger on for a bit today, and the glass got steamed up. There are tiny bugs on the glass, crawling around, leaving little trails in the steamed glass. I'm thinking that they are either springtails or baby isopods, probably the latter.
> Anybody have any thoughts on the matter?
> I tried to take a picture, but they are too tiny to show up.


I've found that pre-frog I have a lot more springtail activity up and about on wood and on the glass... once the frogs get there they mow them down pretty quickly.


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## JPP (Mar 25, 2015)

TheLuckiestMommy said:


> I had the fogger on for a bit today, and the glass got steamed up. There are tiny bugs on the glass, crawling around, leaving little trails in the steamed glass. I'm thinking that they are either springtails or baby isopods, probably the latter.
> Anybody have any thoughts on the matter?
> I tried to take a picture, but they are too tiny to show up.


Probably detritivore mites. They're round and more slower moving than baby springtails or baby isospods. You'll see them on the glass occasionally, leaving little squiggle trails when the glass fogs up. They don't hurt anything, and frogs will eat them.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks! I think the mites sounds right. They are really tiny and there are more of them this morning. Their are also little "webs" near the substrate on the glass. Looks like tiny roots fanned out and climbing the glass.
I'll try to get a picture.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

This is with a macro lense on my phone, so it'd very magnified.


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

What age frogs were you planning to get? With Tincs the main source of food should be larger that springs and isos. FFs are called for and they will be taken greedily about day or 2 after coming out of the water.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm planning for azureus, foods are going to be fruit flies, Phoenix worms, and pin head crickets. Isopods and spring tails ar just snacks and clean up committee.
I'm gonna get a producing culture of H. FF from Josh's frogs when I get my frogs, plus the worms and pin heads, and start culture with Josh's frogs mix. 
If the frogs don't like either the crickets or worms my son has a baby leopard gecko who will like them.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

As far as age, I would like to get juvi. If I can find someone on here who is selling that would be great, otherwise I'm thinking of Josh's frogs or genesis exotics for the frogs themselves. So they will be youngsters.


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## RRRavelo (Nov 21, 2007)

You can just use mainly Melos for the azureus even as adults. They will eat the isos and springs when they see them too. You may need to reseed these from time to time to keep a good population. The crickets and worms are not needed and can be messy but you can use them if you like. Melos produce more FFs faster and in greater numbers than other FFs. 
Three or four juvies would be good till they pair off. My third frogs was eventually rejected after they were about a year old. I found her a good home.
GL with them...


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

RRRavelo said:


> You can just use mainly Melos for the azureus even as adults. They will eat the isos and springs when they see them too. You may need to reseed these from time to time to keep a good population. The crickets and worms are not needed and can be messy but you can use them if you like. Melos produce more FFs faster and in greater numbers than other FFs.
> Three or four juvies would be good till they pair off. My third frogs was eventually rejected after they were about a year old. I found her a good home.
> GL with them...


I'd give yourself a couple of go-rounds with the fly breeding thing before getting the frogs in too. For whatever reason, it seems everyone has a few significant failures early on.

I agree with a little diversification in the fly population too... Hydea's seem to have an irregular pace for me and I have more cultures that don't pan out as well as I'd like.

For my money, these Jumpy Melanos are the fastest producing and most reliable feeder I've worked with. They're a little more messy to feed (I dump them into a feeder cup over my utility sink) but they really go seem to keep the frogs a little more active in chasing them down.


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

TheLuckiestMommy said:


> As far as age, I would like to get juvi. If I can find someone on here who is selling that would be great, otherwise I'm thinking of Josh's frogs or genesis exotics for the frogs themselves. So they will be youngsters.


You should consider making the drive to Plano to visit DFW Reptarium when you are ready for your frogs. I got my first D. Tinc Azureus from there about a month ago. The staff are extremely knowledgeable and friendly. The frogs have been very bold thus far, exploring every inch of the tank every day.


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

pics of my frogs! I think. Not sure if I uploaded right.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

jwright08 said:


> pics of my frogs! I think. Not sure if I uploaded right.


It's always satisfying when you seem using something you hoped they would use like that. Nice set up.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

jwright08 said:


> You should consider making the drive to Plano to visit DFW Reptarium when you are ready for your frogs.



There is a local place to get frog stuff!! You are my hero!


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

I drove out to dfw reptarium and got some critters for my viv. Had a great time. Well worth the drive. They answered a ton of questions and and had all kinds of displays and set up. Better than the zoo!


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm rethinking my frog selection. I'm thinking that I might get P. Terribilis instead if Azureus. Here is my reasoning:
Perameters are similar enough that the viv is set up adequately for either species.
I like the sound the terribs make and, while I was thinking that it may get annoying after the novelty wears off. The good people at DFW Reptarium tell me that the sound is not much louder than a cricket, and I think that might be kind of nice -especially since they tell me they don't usually call at night.
Also it would be nice if I could breed these. Thee don't seem to be as many of them in the hobby. 
As always I appreciate input anybody have experience with both of these care to contribute anything?


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

TheLuckiestMommy said:


> I'm rethinking my frog selection. I'm thinking that I might get P. Terribilis instead if Azureus. Here is my reasoning:
> Perameters are similar enough that the viv is set up adequately for either species.
> I like the sound the terribs make and, while I was thinking that it may get annoying after the novelty wears off. The good people at DFW Reptarium tell me that the sound is not much louder than a cricket, and I think that might be kind of nice -especially since they tell me they don't usually call at night.
> Also it would be nice if I could breed these. Thee don't seem to be as many of them in the hobby.
> As always I appreciate input anybody have experience with both of these care to contribute anything?


If you're going with the Terribs, they LOVE to eat. I'd definitely get some back up feeders. I'm expecting to pick up a crew of 6 Mints for a 100 gallon and have started to go in heavy with the bean beetles and flour beetle larva, just as a fall back.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

jwright08 said:


> You should consider making the drive to Plano to visit DFW Reptarium when you are ready for your frogs. I got my first D. Tinc Azureus from there about a month ago. The staff are extremely knowledgeable and friendly. The frogs have been very bold thus far, exploring every inch of the tank every day.


Sorry, I'm terrible with acronyms--but you aren't referring to Dart Frog Warehouse, are you?

TheLuckiestMommy--you're doing a great job with the parameters, but I think your humidity is a bit high. I'd shoot for about 70%. Anything noticeably humid, "drippy", or otherwise wet indicates that the tank is too moist. The waterfall probably contributes to that.


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

Jjl said:


> Sorry, I'm terrible with acronyms--but you aren't referring to Dart Frog Warehouse, are you?


DFW as in Dallas Ft. Worth.

"DFW Reptarium" is the name of an awesome brick and mortar shop in Plano, Tx.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

Ah, I see. I wish there were more places like that where I live.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

I have three orange terribilis. The dominant male calls all the time. Occasionally I can see the female vocalizing, but I don't usually hear it. I would say the call is louder than a cricket, but I would also say I've never heard mine call at night. My lights go off at the same time every night and about 45 minutes before they do the frogs are completely out of sight, so I don't think they will bother you at night. Mine breed like rabbits, so be prepared for that. 

I will second that they eat a lot. Mine are fat. They eat anything they can get in their mouths.


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

Yes, terribs seem like they will be lots of fun.

Too humid? I thought the humidity around 80% was the goal?


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

From what I've been told, quite a few people keep PDF's around 70% with good results. I've even seen several posts here that recommend waiting to mist until tank decorations are free of droplets.


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## Mavpa (Jan 5, 2015)

Jjl said:


> From what I've been told, quite a few people keep PDF's around 70% with good results. I've even seen several posts here that recommend waiting to mist until tank decorations are free of droplets.


I think the lower humidity is just people saying that they CAN be lower, and having them lower generally indicates you've got solid ventilation which is better for the plants and helps the frogs stay cool.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

Oh, that makes sense now. The thread I got the water droplet tip from was using a vent/fan-inclusive tank.


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## tardis101 (Apr 11, 2012)

My tanks are between 75-80% humidity.


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## Jjl (Feb 2, 2014)

Here's one of the threads I was trying to cite earlier.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/90220-misting-beginners.html


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

Did you get your frogs?


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## TheLuckiestMommy (Aug 6, 2015)

No, not yet. Looking forward to it, though.


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

NARBC (reptile convention, has frogs and frog related things too) today in Arlington at the convention center! Coders at 4 or 5


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

> Coders at 4 or 5


I meant frogs for 40$-50$


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## jwright08 (Jul 14, 2015)

Josh's Frogs Facebook page has an auction going on a pair of orange terribs tonight. Ends in just under 3 hours


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