# River Drift Wood - Do I use it?



## JQuadGMono (Jan 2, 2017)

Hello!

Brand new to the vivarium world and just starting out a new viv.

I recognize that costs could dramatically spike if I go all out so I've been trying to buy things on kijiji to keep things affordable.
So-far I've got my filter, a vivarium thermometer and hydrometer, and finally some driftwood.

This is the part I'm most concerned about. I don't want to buy the driftwood from the store at $100 for a chunk so I went out to the river near my place and picked up some pieces. One piece is absolutely amazing and the others are filler. But are they safe to use? I've been pouring boiling water on them for about 4 hours now. Will it be okay to use them?

The last piece I do notice has some moss on it even after boiling... bad idea to use this?

Here are some shots:

This one is huge 32" x 32" x 24"








This is some filler:
















And this is the moss one:


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## Mobsta303 (Aug 3, 2016)

If you can fit them in the oven bake them I think an hr is sufficient maybe a lil long but baking the is a very good option, if not you can soak them make sure the are comp!etly submersed and do a 1:10 bleach to water solution less bleach is better keep in mind


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## Mobsta303 (Aug 3, 2016)

Forgot also if you do the water one 24 hrs at least with the bleach solution and another 24 with just water wanna make sure you get all the bleach out


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## gope (Jun 26, 2014)

There are many threads on this, do a search. Here's one. Be careful whose advice you take. Scroll to the bottom and read Ed's comment.
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/36514-cleaning-driftwood.html


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## JQuadGMono (Jan 2, 2017)

gope said:


> There are many threads on this, do a search. Here's one. Be careful whose advice you take. Scroll to the bottom and read Ed's comment.
> http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beginner-discussion/36514-cleaning-driftwood.html


Thanks for the link.
I have read a bunch of these threads. There's definitely a lot of mixed ideas behind using them or how to.
Clearly driftwood gets used because you can buy them from pet shops or online. The only question is what is the actual process? 

Ed says don't use bleached wood but other say do after diluting. There just doesn't seem to be a clear guide with the definitive answer.


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## Eaw (Jan 6, 2017)

No expert but bleach soaked wood sounds like a bad idea not sure you can get it out and make sure you know the strength of the bleach you are using before diluting. I would think baking would be better if like they said it fits in the oven.

Again not expert but bleach makes me nervous if you can't get it out.


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## inthedeep (Oct 15, 2009)

Eaw said:


> No expert but bleach soaked wood sounds like a bad idea not sure you can get it out and make sure you know the strength of the bleach you are using before diluting. I would think baking would be better if like they said it fits in the oven.
> 
> Again not expert but bleach makes me nervous if you can't get it out.


coming from the reef tank community we use bleach all the time cleaning different items from equipment to dead/live rock. it just takes a little longer to make sure all the bleach is gone. i would soak the wood like stated above for a day, then soak in clean freshwater for say 3-4days changing the water every day. then either bake the wood or let it sit in the sun for a few days.
corals and fish are just as sensitive as frogs in my mind.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JQuadGMono said:


> Ed says don't use bleached wood but other say do after diluting. There just doesn't seem to be a clear guide with the definitive answer.


Don't use bleached wood as bleaching doesn't do anything with respect to the wood. This is due to more than one factor such as the fact that the wood reacts with the bleach preventing it from being strong enough to act as a disinfectant. 

It also doesn't penetrate the cracks and crevices well as small cracks and crevices are often tight enough to retain air bubbles this shielding what ever is in the cracks. 

Third, the bleach reacts with the wood resulting in organochlorine products which are toxic to many organisms including fish and frogs but the main reason to not use bleach as it isn't going to be effective due to the first two points. 

If you want to disinfect wood that you collected you have two options, the first is to boil it until the temperature in the core of the wood reaches the same temperature as the boiling water. The second is to bake it until the core of the wood reaches disinfecting temperatures. If you soak or boil the wood and then intend to bake it, you've increased the time you'll have to bake it, as the evaporating water will keep it below 212 F until the vast majority of the wood has dried. 

With boiling/baking think about the time required in day(s) as opposed to minutes/hours to be effective unless you have access to a very large pressure cooker. 

I should also note that boiling/baking at temperatures sufficient to reach disinfecting temperatures is also going to degrade the wood resulting in a greatly shortened life-span in the wood and increasing the ease at which fungi and other microorganisms can colonize and decompose it. 

some comments 

Ed


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

inthedeep said:


> coming from the reef tank community we use bleach all the time cleaning different items from equipment to dead/live rock. it just takes a little longer to make sure all the bleach is gone. i would soak the wood like stated above for a day, then soak in clean freshwater for say 3-4days changing the water every day. then either bake the wood or let it sit in the sun for a few days.
> corals and fish are just as sensitive as frogs in my mind.


Bleaching materials that are high in organics is pretty much futile as the organics react with the bleach and can easily dilute the bleach until it isn't effective. In addition if you know the chemistry, sodium hypochlorite (bleach) reacts to form calcium hypochlorite which doesn't dissolve well in hard water.... so again the usage of bleach in this method isn't really a great idea. 

some comments 

Ed


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## JQuadGMono (Jan 2, 2017)

wow. very thorough. Thanks Ed. I appreciate the help here.

i guess its back to malaysian driftwood at the store for an exorbitant cost.


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

JQuadGMono said:


> wow. very thorough. Thanks Ed. I appreciate the help here.
> 
> 
> 
> i guess its back to malaysian driftwood at the store for an exorbitant cost.




There are other ways also. There has been many people that use larger pieces of wood in vivs with no issues. Especially pieces that won't fit into a pot or the oven. Don't give up on that huge piece. I haven't done many larger pieces my self but I heard of dumping boiling water on the wood and scrubbing. May not be as thorough but it may work. 


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## JQuadGMono (Jan 2, 2017)

Damon Ryan said:


> There are other ways also. There has been many people that use larger pieces of wood in vivs with no issues. Especially pieces that won't fit into a pot or the oven. Don't give up on that huge piece. I haven't done many larger pieces my self but I heard of dumping boiling water on the wood and scrubbing. May not be as thorough but it may work.


I have read some successful stories too... Oy. I'm so new to this though I'm thinking that it might just be best to continue with the more expensive wood just in case. Ed's signature text does make a lot of sense... "A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time.""

So true. If I'm making one of these and going all out I really don't want to burn through things with something like this.

And unfortunately I can't boil it or bake it for days.


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## Damon Ryan (Nov 13, 2015)

Keep the wood in case you change your mind or want to use it in the future! Stuff like that goes for hundreds, given that when you buy from a fish store it is most likely legally collected.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

JQuadGMono said:


> And unfortunately I can't boil it or bake it for days.


Put someplace like an attic or very dry basement and let it totally dry out. 

All drying in the oven is really doing is speeding up the process by which the wood becomes dry enough to become inhospitable to unwanted organisms. 

some comments 

Ed


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

@JQuadGMono,

There's no guarantee the wood available at your local fish store has been through any particular sanitization procedure apart from (perhaps) power-washing and drying - so I wouldn't automatically assume your collected wood (after cleaning and drying) will be any more of a danger to your critters than something you bought commercially.

True sanitization is likely overrated (especially since people often employ inadequate methods even when they think they are being diligent). If you allow _any_ living biological material into your tank, you will be introducing a raft of micro-organisms with it. The chance that any particular one of the micro-organisms will hurt your critters is very low (but no one wants to be the unlucky hobbyist to introduce an especially virulent pathogen).

The best you can do is let the wood dry (which is actually pretty quick if the pieces are not too thick - especially during the winter when cold outside and heaters inside tend to dry out the air).

After thorough cleaning the drying, your wood will likely be about as safe as any large piece of wood you are likely to get from any source...


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kimcmich said:


> @JQuadGMono,
> 
> There's no guarantee the wood available at your local fish store has been through any particular sanitization procedure apart from (perhaps) power-washing and drying -


This actually ignores a lot of the requirements on the import of wood products as well as interstate transport to control plant pathogens. More than half the states restrict any pieces of wood that are classified as "firewood" which includes products with the bark still present from being (and a bunch of wood for enclosures would qualify) transported into or out of the states (along with the federal government). There are multiple quarantines on products derived from oak, and other hardwoods and even manzanita. 

As I noted above, imported wood materials is subject to fumigation along with drying to prevent plant pathogens. 

some comments 

Ed


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Ed said:


> This actually ignores a lot of the requirements on the import of wood products as well as interstate transport to control plant pathogens...


As someone who worked in a couple LFSs, I can safely say that compliance with international and interstate regulations regarding the import of material (living and dead) is far from strict. This was 10+ years ago - but my experience as an LFS customer since then pretty much confirms not much has changed. 

In addition, the source for aquarium wood and cypress knees at one of the shops I worked in was "this guy who drives over from Louisiana whenever we need more" - said guy just loaded the wood he'd collected in his truck and drove across 2 interstate borders before dropping it off.

Now that I live in California, I've seen manzanita branches in local shops that didn't look like they had been baked or even power-washed for that matter.

It is certainly not impossible to find truly sanitized (kiln dried, microwave dried or fumigated) wood for one's viv. You'll have the most reliable luck at a large retailer like Petco (they're unlikely to use that guy from LA  ). This is especially easy for smaller pieces - but it gets *much* harder as the size piece of the wood increases.

All of this comes down to weighing risks - and many member of this board err, quite reasonably, on the side of being extra careful. When you raise rare/endangered, delicate (and expensive) critters it's not a bad idea.

Given the realities of one's local LFS, however, the OP shouldn't automatically assume the wood he finds there is safer.


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## Ed (Sep 19, 2004)

kimcmich said:


> As someone who worked in a couple LFSs, I can safely say that compliance with international and interstate regulations regarding the import of material (living and dead) is far from strict. This was 10+ years ago - but my experience as an LFS customer since then pretty much confirms not much has changed.


And the response to this attempt to use an appeal to authority isn't worth anything. Do you think your the only person whose worked in a pet shop? I've worked in several including what had been the largest pet store in the USA for years. So the correct response to this claim is so what... your claim that you automatically have a better honesty as opposed to the multiple published regulations that can and are enforced isn't worth anything. 



kimcmich said:


> In addition, the source for aquarium wood and cypress knees at one of the shops I worked in was "this guy who drives over from Louisiana whenever we need more" - said guy just loaded the wood he'd collected in his truck and drove across 2 interstate borders before dropping it off.


Again your making an unsubstantiated claim versus the published regulations. 



kimcmich said:


> Now that I live in California, I've seen manzanita branches in local shops that didn't look like they had been baked or even power-washed for that matter.


So in other words, you can't be sure it complied with the regulations or not? You might want to bother reading up on your local laws as the firewood regulations covers more than just firewood see for example California | Don't Move Firewood 

some comments 

Ed


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## kimcmich (Jan 17, 2016)

Ed,

I don't think advice like "Don't just assume wood you get at a local pet store is going to be disinfected beyond cleaning & drying" is particularly controversial, but you labored to pick-apart or impugn every word of my last response. I'll address it as best I can and try to limit pulling this thread off-topic anymore than required.



Ed said:


> And the response to this attempt to use an appeal to authority isn't worth anything. Do you think your the only person whose worked in a pet shop?


That wasn't _bragging_ about working in LFSs nor trying to invoke the "authority" of having had jobs in high school and college at mom&pop shops in Alabama. I was merely citing the source of my limited expertise.



Ed said:


> I've worked in several including what had been the largest pet store in the USA for years. So the correct response to this claim is so what...


I was not suggesting you were wrong about regulations (and congratulations for having worked in the largest pet store in the USA). I was merely relating my experience with having seen exceptions to some of those regulations in my local LFS. I continue to see such exceptions today at my current LFSs here in California. There are _regularly_ both fauna and flora that are against the rules here available nonetheless. 



Ed said:


> ...your claim that you automatically have a better honesty as opposed to the multiple published regulations that can and are enforced isn't worth anything.


When did I claim to have "better honesty"? This phrase confuses me.

I'm on the board of the local Native Plant Society - I have many examples of all kinds of horticultural regulations & quarantines that are not properly followed by private citizens, businesses and even local governments. I'm not suggesting these regulations are never enforced - but many of are laxly enforced at best.



Ed said:


> So in other words, you can't be sure it complied with the regulations or not? You might want to bother reading up on your local laws as the firewood regulations covers more than just firewood see for example California | Don't Move Firewood


I am aware of firewood regulations in California. I've lived and camped here for 16 years now. Manzanita species are especially common in California and the wood is (comparatively) easy to get - enough so that local shops can get it straight from a collector. The manzanita wood I mentioned seeing still had beautiful lichens attached whose color would not have withstood much aging - and certainly not baking, steaming or fumigation. I've collected Manzanita wood as decoration for years so I have some experience with how it dries and ages.

Apologies to readers not interested in Ed's and my argy-bargy.


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## JQuadGMono (Jan 2, 2017)

A year later, now that I'm actually building my vivarium over my christmas break.

I thought that I would share some thoughts on the wood that I picked up and showed off earlier in this thread.

So I left the wood in a ultra dry parkade for the last year and ended up throwing out the wood last week. After a year of 'drying' it still actually wasn't dry inside the wood. It also was soft and it came loose when I touched it.

I also ended up buying the expensive wood from a shop in Canada called Petland.

Here's a link to my build that I'm doing - in case anyone might like to see and share thoughts.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/members-frogs-vivariums/335114-my-first-vivarium-paludarium.html


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