# Nematode or parasite?



## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

I've got my group of theloderma corticale on Saturday and noticed this worm in the morning on the front glass close to one of them. Could this be some type of parasite or just a normal nematode and nothing to worry about? Size is maybe 1 cm and the head part is thinner than the body


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

That is neither a parasite nor a nematode. They are often referred to as nemerteans, but so far I have yet to see an actual nemertean in a frog tank.

These are predatory, free living flatworms. Usually Rhynchodemus sylvaticus of related species.

They are hefty predators for their size and will decimate springtail populations and prey on spiders, fruit flies and other feeder items. Although unsightly if present in high numbers, they don't touch isopods and are harmless to healthy frogs (they will attack frogs that are very sick and immobile).

Should be totally fine with mossy frogs


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Thanks for the insight. I've had the feeling that my springtail population dropped but didn't think much of it, because I had a ton of them in there and thought they stay more in the leaf litter now.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

I hate them, I *HATE *them so much! They completely ruined my T. pictum tank! You never realize just how important springtails are until your Viv turns into a sewer full of frog excrement. 
I ended up tearing all the plants out of my Paludarium and beaching them then beaching the whole tank! In the end it worked! but at a great cost...


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I hate them, I *HATE *them so much! They completely ruined my T. pictum tank! You never realize just how important springtails are until your Viv turns into a sewer full of frog excrement.
> I ended up tearing all the plants out of my Paludarium and beaching them then beaching the whole tank! In the end it worked! but at a great cost...


Oh damn, that sounds super bad. I really hope they didn't wipe out my whole population.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

Xardas Damon said:


> Oh damn, that sounds super bad. I really hope they didn't wipe out my whole population.


People are just in love with springtails and isopods these days. Yeah They help some and can be necessary for some tiny frogs to feed on. But, they are hardly the backbone of a frog tank. If you experience issues because there are no springtails or isopods you have a flaw it the system and it is not the lack of little bugs. 

I have had nemerteans once or twice in the past. I just lived with them. The populations went down over time but, they were always present until I stripped down the tanks after many years.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

I had those flatworms in an imitator viv a while back. I ended up tearing the viv down for a combination of reasons, but the viv ran fine with the flatworms in there. Also, their population peaked and then seemed to stabilize at a minimal level at some point. 

Darts put a much smaller bioload on their vivs than other animals do, so that's a difference, but that may be a reason to keep animals in much larger vivs in general.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

bulbophyllum said:


> People are just in love with springtails and isopods these days. Yeah They help some and can be necessary for some tiny frogs to feed on. But, they are hardly the backbone of a frog tank. If you experience issues because there are no springtails or isopods you have a flaw it the system and it is not the lack of little bugs.
> 
> I have had nemerteans once or twice in the past. I just lived with them. The populations went down over time but, they were always present until I stripped down the tanks after many years.


I can tell you absolutely that Theloderma need springtails in their tanks. 1 turd is like the size of a large kidney bean. I wouldn't even consider keeping my one T. cortical if I didn't have a springtail population that can dissolve a turd in a few hours let alone a group of them. My 3 theloderma paludariums are like springtail cultures... every surface that's not bone dry is crawling with them, they even get stuff on the leaves and that's honestly what you need with such big frogs.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> My 3 theloderma paludariums are like springtail cultures... every surface that's not bone dry is crawling with them


How do you manage to culture such a large population in a frog tank? Do your Theloderma not decimate their population? Or do you just constantly keep on adding more?


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

Anon123 said:


> How do you manage to culture such a large population in a frog tank? Do your Theloderma not decimate their population? Or do you just constantly keep on adding more?


None of my Theloderma species seem to eat them. They must really like the combination of a really wet environment, lots of food (frog crap) and rotting leaves. The springtails I have now were sold to me as "Tropical springtails" I tried to seed with other springtail's before "Temperate springtails", "Pink springtails", "Giant springtails" but they always drowned or otherwise just never took. These "Tropical springtails" are really prolific kind of chubby and don't drown, they just walk across the water. I also have a culture going with some charcoal and I feed them algae powders about a teaspoon a week. I haven't gotten them to take to my Morning Gecko Viv so I might buy some "Temperate springtails" for that. I did try to add "dwarf white" isopods to my frog tanks before but none of them succeeded I think they all drowned, but I never needed them anyway, just the springtails.

I just dropped a dead cricket from my Bin into the tank. In a few hours I will take a video of what they do to any decaying organic matter!  Ravenous little creatures


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I can tell you absolutely that Theloderma need springtails in their tanks.


That might very well be. But, this is a dart frog forum and this bioactive thing puts the emphasis on the wrong things in my opinion for running a fairly low bioload dart frog tank. Ventilation, proper substrate, and drainage are heads and tails more important then some springtails.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

FWIW, the OP noted that this is in a _Theloderma_ viv.

Regarding the supposed difference between frog taxa: dart frog poop can be surprisingly large considering the size of the frogs, and few (of mine, anyway) dart vivs have a very visible springtail population. I myself spend a fair amount of time water-blasting turds off surfaces and down into the leaf litter where I presume they at least in part simply get dissolved into the waste water. 

Might be worth some time spent seeing how the viv runs with the predatory flatworms in it before committing to a complete teardown.
.


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## bulbophyllum (Feb 6, 2012)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I can tell you absolutely that Theloderma need springtails in their tanks.


I am sorry. I mixed up my threads. We are not talking dart fogs here. Please ignore me.


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I can tell you absolutely that Theloderma need springtails in their tanks. 1 turd is like the size of a large kidney bean. I wouldn't even consider keeping my one T. cortical if I didn't have a springtail population that can dissolve a turd in a few hours let alone a group of them. My 3 theloderma paludariums are like springtail cultures... every surface that's not bone dry is crawling with them, they even get stuff on the leaves and that's honestly what you need with such big frogs.


I actually don't have springtails in my corticale tank, but that is mostly because it does not have soil. The bottom is water with rocks, plant and wood sticking out. Frog crap is dealt with by a healthy Asellus aquaticus and freshwater snail population, next to some hefty plankton numbers.



Socratic Monologue said:


> FWIW, the OP noted that this is in a _Theloderma_ viv.
> 
> Regarding the supposed difference between frog taxa: dart frog poop can be surprisingly large considering the size of the frogs, and few (of mine, anyway) dart vivs have a very visible springtail population. I myself spend a fair amount of time water-blasting turds off surfaces and down into the leaf litter where I presume they at least in part simply get dissolved into the waste water.
> 
> ...


I have had these flatworms in a few dart frog tanks, and they did fine for multiple years. The springtail population disappeared but the flatworms don't harm isopods so they just boomed instead and became the dominant cleaner bug. I managed to get rid of those worms in all but one tank, some got cleared by themselves and other tanks needed a bit of help.


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## Anon123 (Jan 13, 2022)

Johanovich said:


> I managed to get rid of those worms in all but one tank, some got cleared by themselves and other tanks needed a bit of help.


Could you expand on what you meant by 'a bit of help?' Did you just remove any worms you happen o see with tweezers?


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Socratic Monologue said:


> Might be worth some time spent seeing how the viv runs with the predatory flatworms in it before committing to a complete teardown.
> .


I definetly won't take any action unless I see the tank going south. It is seeded with white Isopods and some Cubaris that can clean up after the frogs. There are also snails in the water. Maybe I can also try different isopods if I notice poop that's not getting dealt with.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Xardas Damon said:


> Maybe I can also try different isopods if I notice poop that's not getting dealt with


Or plan to swap out leaf litter a bit more regularly. Might be better than adding some other potential problem (plant eaters, perhaps).


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## Philsuma (Jul 18, 2006)

half of a kleenex = worm removal. The flatworms 'ride' in on Florida Broms, mostly. Mostly. Look for them at dark or a few hours after lights out on the front glass / after a misting or high humidity day. Just hand remove and like most pests, their population will peter out. No biggie. oh..and C02 doesn't work on most viv pests - some stages of adult and almost all eggs survive.


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## Socratic Monologue (Apr 7, 2018)

Philsuma said:


> half of a kleenex = worn removal.


Good idea. I used to collect a couple on a Q-tip and then stick the Q-tip into a small dish of table salt to kill them.


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## IShouldGetSomeSleep (Sep 23, 2021)

I've seen the same worms on the soil of houseplants at Orangestore I bet mine came from something like that "I didn't always beach dip my plants" I learned my lesson.



Johanovich said:


> I actually don't have springtails in my corticale tank, but that is mostly because it does not have soil. The bottom is water with rocks, plant and wood sticking out. Frog crap is dealt with by a healthy Asellus aquaticus and freshwater snail population, next to some hefty plankton numbers.


I have bladder snails in all my tanks. They do a great job eating what falls into the water. If you have no land for feces to collect then I agree you don't need springtails. I tried to add aquatic isopods I got from Carolina Bio to my T. cortical paludarium but they died off shortly after. What's your water specs?


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## Johanovich (Jan 23, 2017)

Anon123 said:


> Could you expand on what you meant by 'a bit of help?' Did you just remove any worms you happen o see with tweezers?


When I moved house I took the frogs, substrate and plants out (substrate is akadama on top of filter foam, so not much work there) and treated the tank with remaining hardscape with f10sc solution. Plants also got a f10sc dip before being replanted.



IShouldGetSomeSleep said:


> I've seen the same worms on the soil of houseplants at Orangestore I bet mine came from something like that "I didn't always beach dip my plants" I learned my lesson.
> 
> 
> I have bladder snails in all my tanks. They do a great job eating what falls into the water. If you have no land for feces to collect then I agree you don't need springtails. I tried to add aquatic isopods I got from Carolina Bio to my T. cortical paludarium but they died off shortly after. What's your water specs?


Honestly I haven't measured much lately so I can't say for sure. I'll do some measurements later today or tomorrow.


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## Xardas Damon (Dec 1, 2021)

Sadly I do think that my springtail population is gone, since I recently noticed some slime fungus outbreak on some of my plants. 
Are there isopod species that will help me keep this under control and that are more surface dwelling than the tropical whites I seeded with?


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