# Alcohol as sterilizing agent?



## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

In terms of sterilizing temporary enclosures, is over the counter rubbing alcohol as effective as a strong bleach solution? Are there any other widely available chemicals that can be rinsed away that work as well?


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## mack (May 17, 2005)

bump


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## stchupa (Apr 25, 2006)

I found out a few years back that there are some new developements with bacteria, there are some which can sparingly colonize in alcohol.

The best thing you can do is let every thing dry out in the sun for a few days before and after cleaning. Unless it's a fungus you're concerned about.


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

At the laboratory I worked at, we often used Denatured Etoh to clean equipment after its "soap and water" treatment. Not only does the Etoh disinfect the equipment, it also dries it quite nicely.

I've not tried it in the viv for disinfecting yet, but I would if it wasn't so expensive. I think per gallon, bleach is cheaper and works quite well. I don't know where you can buy Denatured Etoh, but I know Isopropyl is easily obtainable and it works just as well.

Not sure if any of that helped... :lol:


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Alcohols will kill some but not all pathogens. If you are looking to an alternative to bleach, try peracetic acid....

http://my.execpc.com/~mjstouff/articles/vinegar.html

Peracetic acid is an organic peroxide formed by the reaction of hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid and has a stronger oxidizing potential than chlorine sanitizers such as sodium hypochlorite though it is less potent than ozone. It disintects by causing the oxidation of the membranes of bacteria, fungi and spores. 

Here is a comparison of the oxidation (sanitizing) potential of select agents

Ozone - 2.07 eV (electron volts)
Peracetic acid - 1.81 eV
Chlorine dioxide - 1.57 eV
Sodium hypochlorite (chlorine bleach) - 1.36 eV

While not recognized as GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA, it has been approved by the FDA for direct food contact use in wash water. Peracetic acid degrades relatively rapidly into fairly harmless substances (hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid) and leaves little residue. 

Bill


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

I've seen Chlorhexidine diacetate recommended in various places for cage cleaning. It is what we use at the wildlife rehab place where I volunteer. I don't remember the exact amounts, but can look it up next time I am at the shelter.

It is USDA approved, I think:

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsh ... 38fact.pdf


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## Ben_C (Jun 25, 2004)

> While not recognized as GRAS (Generally Recognized As Safe) by the FDA, it has been approved by the FDA for direct food contact use in wash water. Peracetic acid degrades relatively rapidly into fairly harmless substances (hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid) and leaves little residue.


Hi Bill,
are you worried about interactions between the silicone in the aquarium and the acetic acid?

~B


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## Frogtofall (Feb 16, 2006)

^ I wonder. I swear some silicones out there have acetic acid IN them. Ever used that aquarium silicone? It REAKS of acetic acid.


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Just a follow up, it is 2% chlorohexedine gluconate diluted like 1:10.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

What about products like Vet solutions or Virosan? My primary concern in asking this question was amphibian specific microbes such as coccidia and chytrid.


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## elmoisfive (Dec 31, 2004)

Ben_C said:


> Hi Bill,
> are you worried about interactions between the silicone in the aquarium and the acetic acid?
> 
> ~B


Any contact with acetic acid would be minor since you would like rinse the viv out with water after allowing the peracetic acid to do its thing.

Bill


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## Blort (Feb 5, 2005)

Dane said:


> What about products like Vet solutions or Virosan? My primary concern in asking this question was amphibian specific microbes such as coccidia and chytrid.


There is all this stuff:

http://www.zoomed.com/html/wipe_out_1_new.php

Ingredient list for the first one here under "more information". Can't find out what is in Wipe Out 2. I believe Robb Melancon posted a while back asking about this, but I don't think there was much of a reply.

But, you'd probably have to do some research using academic databases to get more detailed information.

I think this is an important topic and hope somebody with first hand knowledge can chime in.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Good grief. What is this temporary enclosure going to be re-used for? Open heart surgery? 

Unless it has been somehow contaminated with a known pathogen and inhabitats have died in it, (in which case, I would tend to simply cremate the temporary enclosure and buy a new one,) why not just wash it out well with soap and water, rinse it well, air it out and put in new substrate or whatever, and re-use it? If it is microwaveable, do this to it, if you are overly concerned. Otherwise, "clean" is more practical than anything.


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## bluedart (Sep 5, 2005)

slaytonp said:


> Good grief. What is this temporary enclosure going to be re-used for? Open heart surgery?
> 
> Unless it has been somehow contaminated with a known pathogen and inhabitats have died in it, (in which case, I would tend to simply cremate the temporary enclosure and buy a new one,) why not just wash it out well with soap and water, rinse it well, air it out and put in new substrate or whatever, and re-use it? If it is microwaveable, do this to it, if you are overly concerned. Otherwise, "clean" is more practical than anything.


What would we do without you... :lol:


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

My understanding is that 70% Isopropyl is a very good sterilizing agent. 70% is actually better than 90%, because it has better wetting capability. With aquariums it is often the recommended agent to be used against mycobacteria, as they have a waxy component to their cell wall. This waxy cell wall protects them from being killed by bleach. The alcohol dissolves the wax and then the cell wall as well.

As Patty mentions, some of us probably over sanitize but alcohol is cheap and from what I understand it does a good job. 

I would give anything that has been washed it rubbing alcohol a good rinse with hot water. Some of these rubbing alcohols leave a film behind.


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## Dane (Aug 19, 2004)

> Good grief. What is this temporary enclosure going to be re-used for? Open heart surgery?


I generally only use my sweater boxes for liver transplants. 

I'm certainly one of the more neurotic hobbyists, but it's just because I value my frogs so much that I don't want to take chances.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Good one, Dane-- :lol: I seldom get "out-smart-assed." 

Chris does make a point re: Mycobacterium. In the microbiology laboratory, the effect against Mycobacterium tuberculosis is the standard for rating agents for sanitizing counters and equipment--or was, at the time I retired about 6 years ago. At that time, we were still using Chlorox brand, (at 2% dilution, of the original 11% hypochlorite) mixed fresh daily for santitizing counters and deproteinizing the tubing on automated analyzers, and at this dilution, it was considered effective against Mycobacterium. Like alcohol, the dilution of 70% isopropyl is more reactive than the straight stuff, or a 10% dilution of Chlorox. Stronger is not always better. 

It was always interesting to me that both the Roche and Coulter maintenance technicians always recommended the Chlorox brand of bleach as the only one to use for effective de-proteinizing of their automated machinery tubing--back as far as the early 70's, especially because we also did a lot of veterinary work, and most animal blood could and did, really bung up our machinery if we didn't clean it out well between human and animal runs. They could never explain why, because one would think that Chlorox and Purex or whatever other chlorine bleach brand has the essentially the same formulation. But sure enough, every time we changed brands, we would have problems with the tubing clogging. It is probably one of those Urban legends, because no one ever actually proved anything scientifically or could explain it, but we just all ended up by using what always worked without knowing why. 

Straight white vinegar is great for taking off calcium scale deposits, and also santitizing. If I remember right, this is like using a 3% acetic acid solution, and leaves no particular residue. 

I still say, wash it well, rinse it and re-use it. But always use a NEW sweater box for your liver transplants.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Patty,

Do you have that right? I thought Chlorox was 6% hypochlorite. When you talk about using a 2% solution are you talking about 2% of 11% or 2% of 6%? Or, do you simply mean 2% hypochlorite?


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

You are right, Chris, and and I was confused by thinking of formaldeyde, which is 11% before dilution, to preserve pathology specimens. I'm obviously an old fart, and perhaps everyone should ignore me. Chlorox is indeed 6 %, and you dilute this to 2/100 parts and get a 2% dilution of the original 6%. When I retired, I should have also retired my claim to any expertise. 

I still think the entire sanitizing thing is way beyond what it needs to be. I reject the term "steriizing." A sterile environment is uninhabitable.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

So 10ml of Clorox in 490ml of water will give you a half liter of sterilizing solution. I’m going to have to try that, as it doesn’t sound like it will smell very strong. Most of the sanitizing fluids have strong odors. 

Patty, I agree with you on the over sanitizing issue, but at the same time I’m new to this hobby and would like to try to protect my animals from Chytrid and nematodes. It seems to me that humans have a long history of living with parasites but that we live longer and healthier lives in situations where we minimize parasitism. There are many examples of human mummies from both North and South America, where parasitism drastically affected the health of the living individuals.

I have a large Neoregelia, on my windowsill that I just washed in water. In fact I soaked it over night in chlorinated tap water and gave it a good flushing under the faucet. Now, three months later, it has a small leach living in its cup! These are the types of things that I would like to omit from my vivs. 

I am also the father of a two year old and have a new baby on the way, so Salmonella is a concern. I’m currently moving my frog/fish room to the garage since I can’t keep people out of my basement and I hate to have contractors and utility workers walking around in my frog room and then walking out of the house through my living room.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

> There are many examples of human mummies from both North and South America, where parasitism drastically affected the health of the living individuals.


About 15 years ago, I had the opportunity to work with a paleopathologist in Arica, Chile, autopsying mummies from the museum collection nearby, in order to collect DNA specimens for a project he was doing (to trace human migrations and origins around the Pacific Rim, which was his particular interest.) Many of these mummies from those tribes that did not eviscerate and stuff them with grass before burial, were indeed full of both intestinal and some other tissue and organ parasites that were still grossly identifiable in the residual mummified feces and organs. We also found tuberculosis lesions in both lung and bone, as well as some more rare syphilitic bone lesions. While this part of the autopsies weren't our major goal, it was impossible not to note it. Neither did it seem that these people (from various extremely dry costal areas of Peru and Chile where they were mummified naturally) lived very long, judging from the closure of the skull bone sutures and the ossification of the epiphyseal plates of the long bones. In some of those people that appeared to have survived well beyond the estimated 30-35 years old we could guess as an average life-span, there was often evidence of advanced osteoarthritis, especially of the spine. One of my duties was to take whole body X-rays of each mummy, (with an incredibly primative X-ray machine that was unleaded and spouted radiation in all directions, right out of a Frankenstein movie,) then develop them in a kind of dark shed with sinks of developing fluids of uncertain vintage, no safe light, and people opening the flap and saying "aren't you done yet," every few minutes to totally ruin the last take. In spite of this, we did get some sharp X-rays of mummy bones. 

Then there was the contamination of the DNA tissue specimens problem. The "crypt" that contained these mummies in wood boxes stacked in rows, also contained what we called "mummy spiders." What they lived on, I have no idea, but there were always a couple of them in each mummy box. They were the size of a tea cup saucer, and although we were assured they were not venemous, they were huge, would rush out at you and bite a hunk out of your nearest exposed part, which did not particularly feel good, to say the least. The local lab tech who was helping us, tended to pick up one of our "sterile" tissue collecting instruments and smash them all over everything, including the tissue we'd just teased out. If you ever hear that South American Mummies from the Peruvian, Chilean coastal regions are more closely related to spiders than the human race, don't be surprised.  Although we were working on a clean table, rejected anything we knew she'd squashed one of these behemoths all over, the specimens were still not collected under "open heart surgery" conditions. 

DNA technology was relatively new in 1991, and the original tissues were sent first to UC Berkeley and then apparently ended up in Germany for analysis, and I never heard anything more about it. Hopefully some of the tissue we collected is still in storage somewhere. 

But Chris, how is someone walking through your basement frog room, and then through your living room going to spread disease that probably isn't there in the first place? Salmonella? Wash your hands, don't pick your nose, cook your food, and don't let your kids suck on the turtle or drink out of the toilet. 

[/quote]


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Just Paranoid. The basement floor frequently gets slightly flooded. I clean my quarantine tanks out and I’m sure that I occasionally drop or drip dirty stuff on the floor. Theoretically someone walking through the basement could transfer Salmonella to the upstairs floor, where little hands frequently go from floor to mouth. It seems that salmonella are more persistent than other gram negatives. I have no fear of catching Salmonella myself. I’ve had contact with reptiles and amphibians for just about my entire life, but I do not want any children becoming sick because of my hobby. Moving the Fish/frog room out to the much cleaner garage, will virtually eliminate anyone else’s contact with my frogs, and will get me a nicer albeit smaller room. The basement is not really very nice.


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## c'est ma (Sep 11, 2004)

Well, Chris, you're the one to pass this on to. You've probably heard the medical theories that some of today's widespread allergy and asthma problems could be the result of babies/young children being raised in environments that are too clean. The latest I heard along those lines attributes the high incidence of irritable bowel disease and similar conditions to lack of parasite exposure, and they are even effecting symptom alleviation by giving patients a mix of Gatorade and whipworm eggs to drink.  The MSU page I first read this on is inaccessible at the moment, but I found this through google:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medical ... ewsid=7116

Patty--by the time I got through your mummy post I was LMAO!


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Don’t worry Diane, I’ve heard a lot about challenging the immune system, and it is for this reason that I only try to eliminate specific nasties, not germs in general. We have a Norwegian Elkhound, who my daughter shares her cheerios with. She literally shares individual cheerios. The dog gets a bite then my daughter takes a bite. :shock: I’m sure she gets her share of germs. :lol: She has also been going to a group music class since she was six months old, and now does gym and swim where she is in contact with all kinds of childhood illnesses. In fact she managed to contract Coxsackie virus twice this past fall and winter, so I would say we aren’t too clean around here.

Patty, Thanks for the mummy stories, very interesting stuff. I have a friend who is terribly afraid of spiders. I can just imagine what he would have done had he worked in your lab.

Some how I’ve, yet again, managed to hijack a thread. Sorry Dane.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

That's an interesting article, Diane. It also mentions the fly maggots, used to treat chronic skin ulcers, which I once observed first hand. The blue bottle fly maggots are put on the ulcers where they eat away all of the bacteria and necrotic tissue, then pupate, and can be removed. In the one case I observed the patient had extensive leg ulcers which were chronically infected with Staphylococcus aureus and Pseudomonas aeruginosa, both resistant to any antibiotic treatment that was tried, and he was about to lose both of his legs, so it was a desperate last resort measure. The maggots worked! This particular fly species doesn't invade living tissue, leaving the ulcerations clean as a whistle to granulate over. 

Chris: I can certainly see why you prefer a garage to a damp basement, beyond your concern over Salmonella. I wonder how many people with garages leave room to keep a car in them? I kept my new Toyota in my 4-bay garage/hay barn for about 4 weeks before the boys and I filled it full of our toys and projects.


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## Grassypeak (Jun 14, 2005)

Patty,

The last owners got to the garage before I did. It is actually an old stable. They converted it into a little house complete with heat and plumbing. I was originally going to put the fish room out there buy my parents and in-laws had designs on the little house. We are currently redoing out kitchen which is over the fishroom. The redo is going to require the basement to be cleaned afterward (lead paint dust and general debris will be raining down) so moving the animals makes sense at this time. I’m going to start a journal on making the new room. I just put down a second layer of plywood and will be tiling the floor this week.


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## slaytonp (Nov 14, 2004)

Chris, That sounds like a perfect set-up. Post some pictures as you go.


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